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<BODY><XMP>From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 03:21:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:21:45 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Red Army Chorus
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHEECMCEAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAIECMCKAA.redroach@pobox.com>



I personally think that the US National anthem sucks!
1. The ONLY national anthem that talks about war.
2. A notes that only professional singers can hit on key.
3. Only the communists know the words past the first verse!

Myself and a lot of Americans prefer "America the Beautiful".
They even voted on this in Congress a few years back.

(Rant Over)

MY TURN:
Too bad I am obviously an American who prefers and values the "Star Spangled
Banner."
Maybe we should take Franklin's idea and change our national bird to the
turkey.

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:10:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:10:39 -0600
Subject: [TML] Comm check
Message-ID: <3CA7A57F.EEFD8C@mail.cswnet.com>

ping ping ping ping ping

Here we go again.

ISS Agena at the outer beacon.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:15:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:15:40 -0600
Subject: [TML] Roseberry's HG2 used space craft lot
Message-ID: <3CA7A6AC.CCAACC8B@mail.cswnet.com>

Come on down and try out some of these beauties...
[all designs use HG2. Costs are standard, no arch fees, no discounts]
[TL per Ct]


Upshore class slow shuttle
Y2-0201111-030000-00001-0  TL10-12  95dt Crew=2
            1         2    Mcr26.325 standard 
            1         2
Fuel=4.25dt EP=.95 Agile=1 Cargo=60 Passenger couches=10
Bridge included.


Terp class armored space tanker
QK-0201111-330000-00001-0   TL10-11  40dt Crew=2
            1         2    Mcr16.33 Standard
            1         2
Fuel=1 EP=.4 Agile=1 Bridge included. Tanker Fuel=20dt


Gaku N'aGak class slow modular cutter
Uses same 30dt standard modules as the regular cutter.

Gaku N'aGak class, frame section only
YY2-0203411-030000-00001-0   TL10-12  10dt
             1         2    Mcr9.05 standard  Crew=2
             1         2
Fuel=1.8 EP=.4 Agile=3

Gaku N'aGak class, frame and module section
YY2-0201111-030000-00001-0  TL10-12  40dt
             1         2    Mcr9.05 plus cost of module
             1         2    Crew=2
Fuel=1.8 EP=.4 Agile=1

Modules shown in Adventure 7.


"Cyberspeed" orbital racing speeder
QF-0606701-000000-00000-0 TL9-12  4.5dt
no weapons                Mcr5.885 std Crew=1
Fuel=1 EP=.315 Agile=6 no bridge. Mod1 computer.


Standard Speeder using HG2
VF-0106601-000000-00000-0 TL9-12  6dt
no weapons               Mcr6.52 std 
Fuel=1.08 Ep=.36 Agile=6 Crew=1 Passenger couch=1
no bridge. Mod1 computer. Cargo=.82


Plop designs historical series:  The Jetsons Speeder
NVF-0103311-000000-00000-0 TL9-12  9dt
no weapons                Mcr6.718 std Crew=1
Fuel=1 EP=.27 Agile=3 Cargo=0
1 pilot couch, 4 passenger couches.
1 jump capsule launcher, with 3 capsule ready storage.
4 jump capsules available.
Unfortunately, the designers at the Plop works haven't figured
out how to stick 9dt speeder into a briefcase. Studies continue.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:20:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:20:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Comm check
Message-ID: <200204010020.DBV00016@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
>
>ping ping ping ping ping
>
>Here we go again.
>
>ISS Agena at the outer beacon.
>

Greetings Agena!  This is Bob Marks of Bob's Duty Free Goods 
and Taxi Service!  Welcome! Welcome!  We have specials on 
clothing, liquor, and specialty foods!  Don't buy the tourist 
stuff they sell in the starport!  Nobody pays retail when 
they can buy from Bob!

We even have free coupons for a 10 percent discount on 
refined fuel!  If you have passengers on board, we can take 
them direct to their destination dirtside for only 10cr!

Act now, and we'll throw in a free hot lunch of charbroiled 
steak!

We can match vectors and be alongside in 10 minutes!  How 
about it?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:41:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jason Barnabas)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 16:41:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Real Life? Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <h2bcaugf7hmmg8npll01nedlk3cv051sqi@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1d915$efff2160$2c617043@jbathome>

JR Holmes wrote:
<snippers>
>I'm jealous.  Of course, from San Diego, I would be beyond any distant
>end of any trip you might be considering (in Wisconsin, on Lake
>Michigan).  Ah well, the joys and sorrows of living on the Central
>Coast.

Well JR, I could plan to end up on the bonny shores (I'm assuming 
they are bonny) of Lake Michigan via the Saint Lawrence Seaway.  
So, no it is not entirely out of the question.  After all if I'm 
going to sail all the way from San Diego harbor to the Chesapeake 
Bay, what's a few thousand more miles.

I believe that both Green Bay and Milwaukee are port cities.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:40:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:40:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Real Life? Intrudes
Message-ID: <200204010040.DBV00674@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Jason Barnabas" says
>
>Well JR, I could plan to end up on the bonny shores (I'm 
>assuming they are bonny) of Lake Michigan via the Saint 
>Lawrence Seaway.  
>So, no it is not entirely out of the question.  After all if 
>I'm going to sail all the way from San Diego harbor to the 
>Chesapeake Bay, what's a few thousand more miles.
>

There are a fair number of us near the Chesapeake Bay.
Yeah, as long as you're going from Regina to Sol, what's 
a few more jumps here or there.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:43:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:43:07 EST
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
Message-ID: <16b.b4fbf3e.29d9071b@aol.com>

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"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> Just finished going through what will be a rather long
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units
> in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may
> differ.
> <snip>

   I'd like a copy as well :)
  -Ken-
 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>
<BR>"John T. Kwon" wrote:
<BR>
<BR>&gt; Just finished going through what will be a rather long
<BR>&gt; document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units
<BR>&gt; in Traveller. &nbsp;Just a guide, mind you. &nbsp;Your mileage may
<BR>&gt; differ.
<BR>&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I'd like a copy as well :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR> 
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:49:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:49:20 EST
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
Message-ID: <118.f28a399.29d90890@aol.com>

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> Generating a large number of systems shows a possible anomaly in the rules
> for life generation. Approximately ten times the number of complex animals
> evolved in Earthlike conditions are evolved on icy rockballs with
> subsurface oceans. This is also true for sentinent lifeforms.

Probably because there are a lot more icy rockballs than there are
Earthlike worlds.

If you come up with an adjustment that seems right to you, let me 
know - I'm told a reprint or second edition of First In is likely at some
point, so I'm assembling notes for changes to details of the world
generation sequence.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Generating a large number of systems shows a possible anomaly in the rules
<BR>&gt; for life generation. Approximately ten times the number of complex animals
<BR>&gt; evolved in Earthlike conditions are evolved on icy rockballs with
<BR>&gt; subsurface oceans. This is also true for sentinent lifeforms.
<BR>
<BR>Probably because there are a lot more icy rockballs than there are
<BR>Earthlike worlds.
<BR>
<BR>If you come up with an adjustment that seems right to you, let me 
<BR>know - I'm told a reprint or second edition of First In is likely at some
<BR>point, so I'm assembling notes for changes to details of the world
<BR>generation sequence.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:13:22 EST
Subject: [TML] Test
Message-ID: <c1.1e6bbd30.29d90e32@aol.com>

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   Hey-Mailerdemon bounced my last message. Just testing :)
  -Ken-

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hey-Mailerdemon bounced my last message. Just testing :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:29:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:29:47 -0600
Subject: [TML] Real Life? Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <000501c1d915$efff2160$2c617043@jbathome>
References: <h2bcaugf7hmmg8npll01nedlk3cv051sqi@4ax.com> <000501c1d915$efff2160$2c617043@jbathome>
Message-ID: <5scfau8hccl722d5bgm5a6obo8hfh8eppg@4ax.com>

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 16:41:18 -0800, "Jason Barnabas"
<cyber0@prodigy.net> wrote:

>JR Holmes wrote:
><snippers>
>>I'm jealous.  Of course, from San Diego, I would be beyond any distant
>>end of any trip you might be considering (in Wisconsin, on Lake
>>Michigan).  Ah well, the joys and sorrows of living on the Central
>>Coast.
>
>Well JR, I could plan to end up on the bonny shores (I'm assuming=20
>they are bonny) of Lake Michigan via the Saint Lawrence Seaway. =20
>So, no it is not entirely out of the question.  After all if I'm=20
>going to sail all the way from San Diego harbor to the Chesapeake=20
>Bay, what's a few thousand more miles.
>
>I believe that both Green Bay and Milwaukee are port cities.

Green Bay and Milwaukee (and Duluth on Lake Superior) are deep water
ports suitable for ocean-going ships.  There are a couple of dozen
other harbors which are easily suitable for a 39 footer.  The sailing
season here is only about 6 months long, so it would become a matter
of timing.  The Chesapeake is a fair bit more temperate than the Great
Lakes can be (which isn't saying much if you know about the bad
reputation that the Chesapeake has).

As a minor benefit, and reaching back to my collegiate sailing days, I
understand that the slime which builds up on your hull while passing
through Lake Erie is closely akin to the "Go-Fast" coating that ocean
racers spend hundreds applying to their hulls.

Unfortunately, this is the last year that the annual GenCon gaming
convention will be taking place in Milwaukee (its moving to
Indianapolis), because it takes place in early August and coincided
with the Wisconsin State Fair and was close to a number of very large
summer festivals.  That would have been a good time goal to shoot for.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:37:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 17:37:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Trip time question
Message-ID: <200204010137.RAA27635@molly.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
>> Actually B is how many *hours* of burn endurance were used. Sorry I should 
>> have been more specific
>
>In that case, the formula as written is incorrect.  The delta-V should
>be doubled.  (22 mi/s per g-hour, or 35 km/s)

The real problem is that TS is using a weird definition -- what is written
as 'delta-V' is really 'average trip speed'.  If you look around, you 
discover that it assumes both acceleration and deceleration, and should
be doubled for a one-way trip.

Personally, I think that's confusing, but it is the way the rules work.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:55:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] just looking around
Message-ID: <200204010155.DBX01369@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Was over at Walt Smith's page, and he had a big essay on 
piracy in his TU, which may or may not appeal to those who 
have been involved in rolling around on the topic.

However, he made a few interesting points.  Steal a small 
craft, and even if you only get a fraction of its value, 
you've made a lot of money.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:10:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 21:10:54 EST
Subject: [TML] Navy stuff
Message-ID: <16.1cbec3b9.29d91bae@aol.com>

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   Those interested in some other notes about Spaceships, navy structure, 
assignments and operations, damage control, and the like might want to check 
out Mark Chase's Mekton Z  page at 
http://www.meta-earth.com/metal/metalrpg.html#ch2
   The information is interesting, and some quite  _easily_ liftable for a 
Traveller campaign :)
  -Ken-

   "One of his tricks of persuasion was to cut open the breast of a victim, 
pull out the still beating heart, and gnaw upon it with great relish while 
the next menu object looked on in stark terror. No wonder few withheld 
information from L'Olonais"

   Blackbeard
   AH Games

  

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Those interested in some other notes about Spaceships, navy structure, assignments and operations, damage control, and the like might want to check out Mark Chase's Mekton Z &nbsp;page at 
<BR>http://www.meta-earth.com/metal/metalrpg.html#ch2
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;The information is interesting, and some quite &nbsp;_easily_ liftable for a Traveller campaign :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;"One of his tricks of persuasion was to cut open the breast of a victim, pull out the still beating heart, and gnaw upon it with great relish while the next menu object looked on in stark terror. No wonder few withheld information from L'Olonais"
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Blackbeard
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;AH Games
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:17:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:17:15 -0600
Subject: [TML] Testing
References: <B8CB9A45.3371C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CA7C32B.74BC120@premier.net>

Hmmm.  Did you turn off StripMIME?  A couple of posts came through in
the past couple of hours that were obviously not plain text.

Not a major issue for me, but it may well be an issue for digest
subscribers.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:40:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:40:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Encumbrance
In-Reply-To: <200203311634.DBF00567@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020331183941.009fc790@mindspring.com>

At 11:34 AM 3/31/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Haven't yet seen rules I like for encumbrance.  PCCS is very
>accurate, but takes too long to calculate.
>
>A good page
>
>http://call.army.mil/products/newsltrs/01-15/01-15ch11.htm

Actually, the entire site is good for those playing military/mercenary 
campaigns.

http://call.army.mil/products/newsltrs/01-15/01-15toc.htm


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
  Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:23:02 +0930 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Presidio class armoured cruiser
In-Reply-To: <3CA5611B.8EEF4422@premier.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204011221290.12785-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Antony;

 All I can say is that your designs have been copied and will be modified
for MTU. Thank you for the work. Great things to "liberate".

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 04:19:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:19:39 -0600
Subject: [TML] CT Ship Design mailing list
References: <OF14E5A3E8.5F7821AA-ON85256B8D.00573844@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CA7DFDB.C2CABA21@pobox.com>

William Lane wrote:

> about 7 months ago i entered the "Cortez" into Hot Rod Race. the Cortez was
> a modified Scout. well before the results where posted my company laid a
> bunch of people off including me.
>
> I was wondering if the person who ran the hot rod race was a member of the
> TML and could let me know what Standing The Cortez came in. or if someone
> could forward this to him it would be appreciated.
>

The Hot Rod race took place on the CT-Starships list.  The race results were:
                 Hellbent 20 pts
                 Abrr Chatlqaf 19
                 Princess Lucky 14
                 Cortez 12
                 Renown 10

Also, another quote re the Cortez...

--- In ct-starships@y..., "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@r...> wrote:
> <snip>
> My personal favourite design has to be Cortez, any ship that can stick
> closely to the rules and still manage Jump-4, 5G  with 2 tons reserved for
> beer has to be a good design :)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 04:24:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:24:37 EST
Subject: [TML] Splat gun
Message-ID: <197.49c174e.29d93b05@aol.com>

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   Hi gang,
   After seeing stats for one of these things someplace on-line, I got to 
wondering just what exactly _IS_ an Aslan Splatgun anyhow?
  -Ken-

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi gang,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;After seeing stats for one of these things someplace on-line, I got to wondering just what exactly _IS_ an Aslan Splatgun anyhow?
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 03:54:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:24:22 +0930 (CST)
Subject: [TML] boarding bots
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331144144.02480060@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204011313420.12785-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi laning:

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, laning wrote:

> I remember reading the article at the time.  Like most non-GDW magazine
> articles that proposed additional rules for Traveller, it added something
> far more powerful than would balance with the existing game rules.

 I think it was #64. Carried a "URP". I made a few servant bots. One
cyborg PC and then sort of lost interest. As it became a way of making
ultra powerful things that either  upset the game in favour of the team or
the opposition. So I ended up doing a sort of "Dune" trip about robots.
Forget the name of the provision against such things. <Butler?>

> Of course, I'm no happier than anyone else with the GDW robot rules in Book
> 8--or the computer rules, for that matter.  But, I shouldn't criticize,
> because I'm hardly qualified to write something better.  I don't think
> Moore's Law is infinitely recursive and in fact I think it's likely to
> reach its limit while most of us are still alive, so that doesn't jibe at
> all with the hardware rules.  Software rules are more problematical to
> devise.  Locomotion and manipulators _might_ be amenable to easy
> calculation for engineers experienced in such areas but that's only for
> current-day tech, so tech levels 8 through 15 or higher are anybody's
> guess.  The power requirements and power production do seem to have been
> second-guessed very intelligently and accurately by people on this list who
> sounded qualified.

 I was not familiar with computers or robotics at that time. So I let the
entire concept wither on the vine IMTU. But as I ressurect my game. I now
need to adress the matter. Book 8 seems to be in some areas weak and  in
other complex. I need more understanding and then create for MTU.

> BTW, Lord Ronin, if you ever phoned for tech support during the last days
> of Q-Link before it was ignominiously "sunsetted" then we may have spoken
> on the phone.  Although I never had my own account, it was still one of my
> duties to provide tech support.  At least, unlike most of the other AOL
> tech reps who were tasked with the same thing, I'd actually owned a couple
> of Commodore computers in my time.  The only computers on the tech reps'
> desks were IBM-compatibles, with a healthy scattering of Macs, also.  (Not
> 6502's, I said Macs.)  I am pleased to report I had an outstanding success
> rate on my Q-Link calls.  Which is a good thing, because there was many an
> evening when I was the _only_ tech available to answer Q-Link calls.  I had
> wanted to join one of the developers to be online for chat during the final
> moments, but I was busy working instead.

 no i doubt it was you I talked to, as you still have two ears. The one I
talked to got a very falming earful of what I thought about the rape,
torture and murder of Q-Link. Not to mention the stated deltetion of the
C= files from the HD area. BTW: want a copy of the non existent <if you
belive Steve C.> 2400 front end loader? I was part of the Q-Link
preservation group. C=64 Dungeon Arcade was may area. have it all the F-3
comments and still have the 90 catalogue. Now if I can find all the inn
ladies from the geopaint area for my BBS. But I won't delve into that
topic on llist. Oh on the FWIW part laning, I only use Commodore still.
Online with one at this moment at 14.4 going to 56k this upcoming month.
See me off list if you would like to know more about the current world of
Commodore and the new Commodore system comming out shortly.

 OBTRAV: There have been alot of PC platforms in the past. IMTU they are
all C= OS based. As that is what I belive in as the best OS for the user.
Personal opinion of course. IYTU what do you use as a computer standard?
is there a platform OS standard on all computer using tech level worlds?
Does the 3I enforce a compliance of a specific computer OS platform? Or
are there multiple and semi if at all compatible OS units in your game
world?

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 06:01:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:01:28 +0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Kiev class light fleet carriers
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331105548.024beec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEGFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of laning
Sent: Sunday, 31 March 2002 11:59 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Kiev class light fleet carriers


Antony, why would Terra build a jump-1 warship?  It's more than one parsec
to Terra's nearest neighbor, IIRC.

And my prejudice against fighters/carriers is stronger for this class than
it was for the Consort.  I could see fighters used in commerce raiding as
well as commerce escort, but haven't found a use beyond that.

--Laning

The Kiev is capable of 1x jump-3 or upto 3x jump-1 or any combination. The
other thing to remember is that fighter carriers have been canon since CT.
The Kievs were also designed around the time of the First Solomani Rim war
so have been left behind somewhat by later developments.

Also in Traveller rulesystems (GT excepted, I don't know about T4, not
having that) A ships weapons can only engage one target per round regardless
of rate of fire (rate of fire just makes that target easier to hit). This
actually increases the survivability of fighters. Most of my fighter designs
still carry Nuclear Detonation missiles for a stand off capability.

From play testing I also found that in TNE at least fighters used
defensively are quite successful. Effectively giving a vessel like the Kiev
forty more laser turrets and missile launchers. Commerce raiders also tend
to be of cruiser class or less (the Azhanti High Lightnings were commonly
used for this) Against this type of vessel fighters are a threat. If not why
do the Lightnings for example carry so many light starfighters?

Anyway that is some of my thinking behind the class.

Antony



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 06:01:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:01:29 +0800
Subject: [TML] Presidio class armoured cruiser
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204011221290.12785-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEGFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Lord Ronin from
Q-Link
Sent: Monday, 1 April 2002 10:53 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Presidio class armoured cruiser


Hoi Antony;

 All I can say is that your designs have been copied and will be modified
for MTU. Thank you for the work. Great things to "liberate".

BCNU


Why thank you my lord,
Praise from the praiseworthy is praise indeed.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 06:01:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:01:30 +0800
Subject: [TML] GT Ship Conversion from TML Post
In-Reply-To: <3CA72B79.1969.B92D3@localhost>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOEGFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of shadowcat
Sent: Monday, 1 April 2002 5:30 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] GT Ship Conversion from TML Post


I give you the Breton class light cruiser, I unfortunately have forgotten
who
posted the orginal, and my apologies for the omission of the persons name

That's Ok, the original FFS1 version was posted by me. Nice conversion.
Incidently Fremantle, named after the city in Western Australia not
Freemantle.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 04:24:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:24:18 -0600
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
References: <200203310432.DAH01551@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV57xlgF6ygG1pzOKJ000112d6@hotmail.com>

I'd be grateful for a copy.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"

> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages
> so far.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 07:18:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 02:18:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  The Traveller Movie (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <20020328202400.35905.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CA105D7.EB960833@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020328175158.02bd1c70@pop.wizard.net>

At 12:24 PM 3/28/02 -0800, someone wrote:
>How about this for a plot.  Somehow Norris gets wind
>of the assassination plot and heads to warn the
>Emperor.  Unfortunately misjump occurs and the ships
>can't continue.  The only option is the Free Trader
>Beowulf.

Good stuff.  I like it.   :->

Minor suspension of disbelief problem though.  Norris' ship misjumps while 
the rest of his escort fleet doesn't.  Somehow, his personal ship isn't 
able to continue on either.  I guess the misjump inflicted damage to the 
jump drive or something.  But for Norris to choose a free trader as his 
best alternative seems implausible.  Unless the Beowulf is the _only_ ship 
in system.  And even then, he'd transfer to a faster vessel at the first 
system that had one, and there'd be plenty of chances for that.  I guess 
the Beowulf would have to be not a free trader, but something with jump-5, 
and preferably a fast maneuever drive too, to reduce days spent maneuvering 
between jumps.  This suggests a very nonstandard ship or nonstandard 
history for what was once a standard ship.  I think that's good 
though.  Make the ship a separate character in the hearts of the 
audience.  Like the 'Millenium Falcon' only much more so.


>   Norris joins the crew and they head accross
>the rift because it is a speedier trip.  Our
>adventurers get to the Real Strephon on the way
>shortly before the news of the assassination reaches
>them.  I think the scene when the Real Emp meets
>Norris and the crew could be cool.

It seems like it takes some serious handwaving to have them bump into the 
real Strephon on the way.  But, yeah, it makes for a good scene and one 
that seems desirable to keep in the script.  It also takes some serious 
handwaving for Norris to get wind of the impending plot when he lives so 
far away from Dulinor and Dulinor's power base, as well as Capital.

But you have a good thing going with taking a high noble and throwing him 
in with the crew.  A major downside of that is it will remind some people 
too much of Princess Leia or Queen Amidala.  Hmm, maybe something involving 
a Zho instead of Norris.  we have to learn through the eyes of the 
merchant's crew that the Zho are not horrible mind rapers after all, and in 
fact are nice folks who like to prevent assassinations.  The Zhodani 
government might have more pragmatic reasons for trying to prevent the 
assassination, too.  They can't know the assassination is scheduled by GDW 
to initiate the break up of the Imperium.  From where they're sitting, it's 
a choice between Dulinor on the throne or Strephon.  And if they can 
arrange for Strephon to owe them big time for saving his bacon, all the better.

Yeah, thinking about it more.  The Zhodani own most of the mind reading 
market, would have a spy network that could pick up wind of Dulinor's plot 
in advance, and then they'd decide to tip off Strephon through people who 
are guaranteed to be loyal to Strephon.  They'd also be aware of the real 
Strephon and his whereabouts.  They transmit their message through their 
usual clandestine channels (diplomatic and spy network within the 
Imperium).  A small party of Zhodani, consisting of the diplomatic courier, 
his military escort, and Zhodani psionic adepts undercover as Imperial 
citizens who are additional security for the diplomatic courier but the 
courier himself is not aware of their true nature.  He thinks they're just 
Imperial citizens headed in the same direction, in a hurry for some 
plausible-sounding reason.  They run afoul of the misjump plot 
device.  They need transport now, and it has to be _fast_.  There's the 
'Beowulf', a 60-year-old merchant, that was bought surplus from the 
Imperial Navy where it was used as a small despatch courier.  It's held 
together by it's talented and devoted crew, who pay factors all over the 
sector to line up courier jobs for them, and thus eke out a living, and get 
to travel the universe.  The Zhodani party _needs_ the 'Beowulf' and 
they're in a hurry.

But, the 'Beowulf' crew are already on a scheduled job, and one that pays, 
and it's going in the opposite direction from where the Zhodani are 
headed.  Sure, the Zhodani can offer virtually unlimited pay to the Beowulf 
as inducement to drop their current courier job in favor of taking the 
Zhodani where they want to go.  But the Beowulf's crew are predisposed to 
disliking and mistrusting the hated Zho's.  Some plot tension and character 
tensions develop.  Some local subplots have to develop also, for the Zho 
and the Impies to struggle through together, and through these actions the 
Impies learn to see the Zho in a new light.  They begin to shed their 
prejudices, but hardly all at once.  Now they're not so sure that they're 
right to be automatically suspicious of the Zhodani.

The fabulous sums dangled by the Zhodani courier tip the scales.  And, 
fortuitously, the local factor (played by Sidney Greenstreet) who the 
'Beowulf' usually does business with, and is their friend and confidante, 
let's them know another ship has arrived in system (one of their 
urgent-delivery competitors) who can be paid to finish the delivery job the 
'Beowulf' is already on.  Still some lingering reservations about Zhodani, 
but they accept the charter and the Zhodani and the 'Beowulf' crew proceed 
together.  Through many jumps, including across the Rift.

The diplomatic courier is actually a very high ranking diplomat who would 
not normally be used merely as a courier, but the significance of this 
mission dictated that he be used partly to lend credibility to his message 
and partly because he is entrusted with a full briefing on the contents of 
his message and his empowered to negotiate directly with Strephon.

Realizing that too much distance/time has been lost because of the misjump, 
the diplomat has to change destination from the planet where the real 
Strephon was sojourning, to meeting Strephon en route as he travels back to 
Capital.  At each port of call, he must contact the local Zhodani consulate 
or spy to pick up the latest news on the precise location reported for the 
real Strephon.  Some minor adventures are associated with meeting these 
local contacts, and the Beowulf crew are required for getting safely 
through these dirtside adventures.  More bonding with the Zhodani.  Their 
reservations and prejudices continue to erode but are not entirely gone 
yet.  Too many centuries of bad history, not to mention the ugly memories 
from the recent FFW.  The crew continues wearing psionic shield devices at 
all times.

The two groups continue working together and are now extremely close to the 
real Strephon.  But the crew keeps wondering why the diplomat keeps playing 
games with naming their final destination (the diplomat doesn't _know_ the 
final destination, he can only guess at the best intercept course to catch 
Strephon).  Finally, one last jump will catch Strephon's caravan.  But 
exactly which jump?  Guess wrong, and more time is lost and Strephon will 
get further away, because he is travelling at jump-6 maneuever-6, a 
combined speed that the 'Beowulf' can almost but not quite match.  (I think 
the Beowulf should be jump-6 maneuever-5 agility-5.) Guess right, and bingo 
they're in the same system as Strephon and can initiate communications and 
arrange a meeting.  The diplomat doesn't have the expertise to predict the 
right jump destination with reasonable chance of success.  He needs all the 
navigational expertise the Beowulf crew can give him.  But for that, he 
needs to tell them a lot more about the identity of the person he is 
chasing that he really wants to.  The 'Beowulf' captain tells the diplomat 
she needs a lot more info from him, he is too vague, she can't predict what 
he's asking without knowing a lot more about the party they're trying to 
catch up to.  Another hurdle to clear in building trust.  And when he does 
tell her, what do she and her crew make of a Zhodani diplomat escorted by 
two hired Zhodani killers who is desperate to catch up to Strephon but 
doesn't want anybody to know?  Suspicious, eh?  More trust-building hurdles 
to clear.  Finally, the Zhodani diplomat and the 'Beowulf's' retired 
Imperial Navy captain trust each other enough to work together. Even then, 
using all their pooled smarts and experience, it's a dice roll whether 
they've guessed the right place to jump and intercept Strephon.  They're 
now in jump space for a week, waiting, anxious.  The captain:  am I right 
to trust this Zho or are they duping me and I'm bringing an assassin to 
meet my vulnerable Emperor?  The diplomat:  these fearful, paranoid, 
suspicious, Impies.  I envy them their freedom and wildness, but how can I 
be gambling so much on the success of a perfect example (the captain) of 
just such wildness?  Is the captain intentionally misleading me?  (Still 
wearing her psi shield, or maybe just one of those rare one-in-a-million 
immunes to telepathic reading.) And if not, did the captain guess the right 
jump destination?  Tension builds.

Did I mention that the diplomat is a man and the captain a woman?  I mean, 
come on.  We can't make a movie like this without some sort of romantic 
interests! Both a young-looking forties, both played by very attractive 
actors?  And is that...sexual tension (!) underlying their many 
disagreements and negotiations during these weeks of travel and adventure?

Things happen during the week of this last jump.  But neither of them seem 
willing to publicly admit to the wild and delirious passions they shared 
during the quietest hours of this last jump, they tried to keep their 
trysts a secret, and we think they've succeeded.  Do they still refuse to 
admit to themselves even that they are falling in love (or at least serious 
lust) with someone from a foreign and looked-down-upon civilization?  To 
the captain, Zhodani equals mind raping totalitarian who doesn't care about 
individuals.  To the diplomat, Imperial equals barbaric, psychologically 
stunted and bloodthirsty individuals who run amok only slightly less than 
wild vargr do.

I'm thinking Sigourney Weaver, Renee Russo, or maybe Nicole Kidman for the 
captain.  Somebody who is an excellent actress, has sex appeal, and can 
carry off being physical and adventurous, and also a bit world weary.  The 
diplomat has to have an aristocratic British accent of course <G> and also 
be a talented enough actor to carry off being strong, independent and 
capable, but somehow project an indefinable vulnerability and need for 
protection while travelling through such "barbaric" provinces.  Best 
casting I've come up with for him so far is Hugh Jackman, who seems pretty 
good.

There should also be a couple of romantic storylines for minor characters 
in the two parties.  Perhaps the aide to the diplomat and one of the ship's 
crew.  It doesn't take them long to acknowledge their interest in each 
other.  They should be fairly uncomplicated and likable characters. and the 
audience should be sympathetic to them.  They still have to overcome the 
outside barriers to their love of conventional prejudices and their mutual 
bosses being somewhat disapproving.  The second romantic storyline should 
involve one person from each party, also.  I'd like for there to be a vargr 
in each group.  I guess that means either one of the undercover Zhodani is 
a vargr, or one of the military escorts.  Perhaps both escorts should be 
from a vargr unit that has been part of the Zhodani Consulate for centuries 
and has a long and honorable tradition of guarding diplomatic missions and 
embassies.  Alternatively, if you want to play the alien race romance angle 
for much broader laughs, one of the romantic pair can be vargr while the 
other is aslan.  The first romantic pairing should be consummated 
(off-screen, this is a G or PG movie) before the two main characters have 
their trysts.  The second, alien-race pairing should be after.

The climactic scene of the film should be final jump succeeds at arriving 
in the correct star system, and succeeds at guessing where in the star 
system would be the smartest place to intercept Emperor Strephon's 
incognito small fleet.  (Smart deductions, plus a very good dice roll from 
someone with very high Navigation skill.  :-)  There are then a few quick 
scenes where the 'Beowulf' signals the Emperor's ship, recognition codes 
are exchanged between the diplomat and a high advisor of the Emperor's, and 
we see from the bridge of our beloved 'Beowulf', over the shoulder of the 
diplomat who is standing behind the pilot and captain, the form of the 
light cruiser carrying the Emperor growing larger and larger.  Docking is 
imminent, and we get a quick cut of the Fire Control Officer aboard the 
Emperor's ship in continuous contact with the Fire Control Officers on the 
escort vessels, advising them the approaching merchant has been recognized 
as friendly but maintain targeting lock with bay and spinal mount 
weapons.  The 'Beowulf' exterior is shown, looking rather small docked 
against the frontier cruiser that carries Strephon.

Those quick scenes should serve to introduce a few characters of the 
Emperor's party who will become prominent in the sequel.  Minor reference 
to them by name might have been made very quickly earlier in the film.  The 
final scene of the film is the entire party ushered into an extremely 
impressive yet informal audience chamber, the rest of the party left near 
the entrance under very professional guard and the diplomat and aide 
escorted forward to be formally introduced to the Emperor.  We see the 
Emperor moving forward with innate grace and noble bearing, and a curious 
smile.  Be sure to look for the sequel soon in theaters everywhere.

I like to picture the characters encountering at least a dozen Imperial 
Guard in full battledress from the moment they board the ship and all the 
into the audience chamber itself.  Starting with two in battledress as they 
pass through the airlock.  Perhaps one of the earlier minor difficulties 
the 'Beowulf' crew and diplomats had to overcome involved a graphic 
demonstration for the audience's benefit of just how amazingly capable 
battle dress can be.  Forget Boba Fett in 'Star Wars' and think more like 
the 'Predator' but with military weaponry instead of hunting weaponry.

I'd like to devise more about the individual characters, and flesh out more 
of the storyline, particularly the various minor adventures besetting the 
two parties during their journey and how these adversities draw them closer 
together over time.  And yes, I know we can't cast Sidney Greenstreet as 
the factor/friend because he's dead.  :->  How about uhhhhh Oliver Platt??

I think the rival fast merchant that took over our protagonist merchant's 
delivery should make a reappearance in the second film.  The trick is going 
to be casting Dulinor and writing the scenes to show his arrogant and 
decidedly lethal plans to assassinate the Emperor but only because he 
thinks it is for the greater good.  We have to show that he loves the 
Imperium, likes and respects Strephon, but just thinks there is only one 
sophont who is the right soph for the job at this critical juncture in 
history.  He goes through some soul searching, but we TMLers already know 
the answers he comes up with.  The Dulinor scenes should show all this, but 
be very economical and not take a lot of screen time.  Dulinor should be 
played by someone very tall and an obviously very fit physical 
specimen.  Lucan...?  I'm seeing Joaquin Phoenix, who did such a great job 
in a similar role in 'Gladiator'.

That's what I have so far, folks.  Comments?

--Laning
(traveller geek code is MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 08:12:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:12:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <DAV16h3lrGS1DknvCes0001cd0f@hotmail.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?  What does canon say on =
this?

Some parameters here:  I'm not talking about hijacking a ship, nor am I =
talking about ship theft incidental to piracy.

Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved in stealing a =
starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.

It seems to me the problem can be considered as four separate issues:

1.  Identifying a likely (unoccupied) target that can be operated by a =
prize crew no larger than the size of your theft team.  Scout ships =
(which often fulfill these conditions) will be targeted for theft much =
more frequently than battlecruisers (which hardly ever do).

It seems one could accomplish this step with visual surveillance, inside =
information from the ships crew or spaceport personnel, and/or Neural =
Activity Sensors.

2.  Approaching the vessel.

This ranges from child's play (an unguarded scout grounded in a sparsely =
populated area with the sole pilot/crewmember dead or distant), to an =
indirect form of suicide (an experimental warship docked at the naval =
base.)

Presumably, accomplishing this would be well nigh impossible at an A =
starport, non-trivial at a B and your better C's, and not beyond the =
realm of consideration at lesser facilities.

3.  Entering the vessel.

Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let you in. <g> =20

How do starships determine who to admit?  Whoever holds the key?  =
Voiceprints?  Biometrics?  Passwords?  Some combination?  Given =
sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar (doubtful) or a cutting =
torch (probably)? =20

Having forced your way in what active countermeasures do you have to =
defeat?  Does the ship send combat bots?  Does the environmental system =
become hostile?  Does an anti theft program deliberately destroy the =
Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the j-drive useless?

4.  Establishing vessel control.

Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do you get the starship =
to respond to your commands?  When you plop down on the pilot's couch =
what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver drive?  =
Again, is there a key?  Biometrics?  PIN numbers?  How much trouble =
would there be in performing the starship analog of a hot-wire job?

Awaiting feedback.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com




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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?&nbsp; =
What does=20
canon say on this?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Some parameters here:&nbsp; I'm not talking about =
hijacking a=20
ship, nor am I talking about ship theft incidental to =
piracy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved =
in stealing=20
a starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It seems to me the problem can be considered as four =
separate=20
issues:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>1.&nbsp; Identifying a likely (unoccupied) target =
that can be=20
operated by a prize crew no larger than the size of your theft =
team.&nbsp; Scout=20
ships (which often fulfill these conditions)&nbsp;will be targeted for =
theft=20
much more frequently than battlecruisers (which hardly ever =
do).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It seems one could accomplish this step&nbsp;with =
visual=20
surveillance, inside information from the ships crew or spaceport =
personnel,=20
and/or Neural Activity Sensors.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>2.&nbsp; Approaching the vessel.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This ranges from child's play (an unguarded scout =
grounded in=20
a sparsely populated area with the sole pilot/crewmember dead or =
distant), to an=20
indirect form of suicide (an experimental warship docked at the naval=20
base.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Presumably, accomplishing this would be well nigh =
impossible=20
at an A starport, non-trivial at a B and your better C's, and not beyond =
the=20
realm of consideration at lesser facilities.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>3.&nbsp; Entering the vessel.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let =
you in.=20
&lt;g&gt;</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>How do starships determine who to admit?&nbsp; =
Whoever holds=20
the key?&nbsp; Voiceprints?&nbsp; Biometrics?&nbsp; Passwords?&nbsp; =
Some=20
combination?&nbsp; Given sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar=20
(doubtful) or a cutting torch (probably)?&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Having forced your way in what active =
countermeasures do you=20
have to defeat?&nbsp; Does the ship send combat bots?&nbsp; Does the=20
environmental system become hostile?&nbsp; Does an anti theft program=20
deliberately destroy the Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the =
j-drive=20
useless?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>4.&nbsp; Establishing vessel control.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do =
you get the=20
starship to respond to your commands?&nbsp; When you plop down on the =
pilot's=20
couch what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver=20
drive?&nbsp; Again, is there a key?&nbsp; Biometrics?&nbsp; PIN =
numbers?&nbsp;=20
How much trouble would there be in performing the starship analog of a =
hot-wire=20
job?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Awaiting feedback.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:texasredshift@hotmail.com">texasredshift@hotmail.com</A></=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01C1D922.B694B900--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 08:42:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:42:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204010842.AAA08687@molly.iii.com>

"Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com> writes:

>How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?  What does canon say on =
>this?

Canon says little that I know of.  Generally, I assume it's hard.

>Some parameters here:  I'm not talking about hijacking a ship, nor am I =
>talking about ship theft incidental to piracy.
>
>Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved in stealing a =
>starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.
>
>It seems to me the problem can be considered as four separate issues:
>
>1.  Identifying a likely (unoccupied) target that can be operated by a =
<snip>. Not a huge problem, unless there's something unusual going on.

>2.  Approaching the vessel.

Agree.  This is dependent on assumptions about computerization; robots 
in most versions of traveller might be smart enough to object, though
by and large they won't be permitted to shoot you outright.
>
>3.  Entering the vessel.
>
>Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let you in. <g> =20
>
>How do starships determine who to admit?  Whoever holds the key?  =
>Voiceprints?  Biometrics?  Passwords?  Some combination?  Given =
>sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar (doubtful) or a cutting =
>torch (probably)? =20

For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't get
in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
do the ship much good, however.

>Having forced your way in what active countermeasures do you have to =
>defeat?  Does the ship send combat bots?  Does the environmental system =
>become hostile?  Does an anti theft program deliberately destroy the =
>Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the j-drive useless?

Most likely, none of the above; the ship yells for help and goes into 
lockdown mode.  Paranoid owners could easily equip the ship with kill
switches in a few critical concealed junctions.

>4.  Establishing vessel control.
>
>Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do you get the starship =
>to respond to your commands?  When you plop down on the pilot's couch =
>what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver drive?  =
>Again, is there a key?  Biometrics?  PIN numbers?  How much trouble =
>would there be in performing the starship analog of a hot-wire job?

For higher tech ships, most likely you're defeating biometrics, plus a
rather smart robot brain.  Unless you can steal startup information from
the owner, most likely you're talking hours or days of work, particularly
if kill switches have been installed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 08:59:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 03:59:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>
>For higher tech ships, most likely you're defeating 
>biometrics, plus a rather smart robot brain.  Unless you can 
>steal startup information from the owner, most likely you're 
>talking hours or days of work, particularly if kill switches 
>have been installed.
>
I have the feeling that an Imperial ability to commandeer 
your ship is a factor here.  Currently, the penalty for 
failing to obey orders when boarded has a variety of 
punishments, ranging from large fines, to loss of your 
license, loss of your ship (which may belong to your 
employer, not you), and probable jail time.  Even if they 
don't find anything else wrong.

There are probably locks of some sort.  But imagine if the 
crew was disabled by a malfunctioning life support system, 
and headed on a hazardous course.  Under your system, no 
rescue crew would be able to board normally, and if they did, 
they couldn't fly the ship.

I would bet that some locking system exists.  But probably 
not one that would then become more defensive if the locks 
were bypassed.  The locks are probably designed to defeat the 
majority of criminals, not those with sophisticated equipment 
(like the Imperial Navy).  It's probably coded into the 
ship's software by law -- even if they don't have the 
password or keys to get in, the Navy can override your ship's 
computer and seize control using simple, but sophisticated 
equipment when they board.

There might even be an interface that works through your 
transponder's software.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 09:03:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (P-O Bergstedt)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 11:03:17 +0200
Subject: [TML] Burn Heretic, Burn!
Message-ID: <3CA82255.1CACE976@berka.com>

After 102 votes, the Heresy IMTU poll is now closed.

In TATU (The Average Traveller Universe),
almost everyone is a heretic.

The result was: 
he++   23.53%
he+    51.96%
he     15.69%
he-     7.84%
he--    0.98%

Compare this result with previous poll:
http://zho.berka.com/polls.html

(The new poll is about Drop Tanks.)

  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN
/ * A o \_____/       \_____
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:24:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:24:11 +0800
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8A5CB.29530.200B430@localhost>

Hi all!

On 1 Apr 2002, at 3:59, John T. Kwon wrote:

> There are probably locks of some sort.  But imagine if the 
> crew was disabled by a malfunctioning life support system, 
> and headed on a hazardous course.  Under your system, no 
> rescue crew would be able to board normally, and if they did, 
> they couldn't fly the ship.
> 

Personally, I don't think that rescue ships would be all that likely 
anyway.  Salvage ships, maybe, but not rescue ships.

BUT, even if there were rescue ships, I bet they would have similar 
equipment to salvage ships (I'm thinking the beginning of /Aliens/ 
here) -- super-heavy-duty laser cutters, universal airlock adapters, 
the whole works.  If there really /is/ an emergency, and the rescue 
crew is authorized to enter the ship, they're not going to want to 
wait for the proper codes from Central Command and then for the 
locks to recognize them.  Parallel: In a car wreck, the paramedics 
don't try to find the right key, they just get out the Jaws of Life.  

In other words, I think that gaining access to a ship by pretending 
to be a legit authority would be quite hard, but blasting your way in, 
if you could first disable the crew, would be relatively easy.  I guess 
it depends on your final purpose...?

-- Rachel

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:51:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:51:48 PST
Subject: [TML] Splat gun
In-Reply-To: <197.49c174e.29d93b05@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20401.025148.6F4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>    Hi gang,
>    After seeing stats for one of these things someplace on-line, I got to 
> wondering just what exactly _IS_ an Aslan Splatgun anyhow?

Probably derived from the Centran splat gun. Find a copy of the
recently expanded re-issue of Christopher Anvil's "Pandora's Planet"
for an interesting story, and some examples of why Scouts have
nightmares. 


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:35:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:35:18 PST
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20020401084436.C5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Well, you actually *could* use EM fields to steer a high temp plasma
>> "plume" outside of the ship and retreive the cooled ions. <g>
>
> Not if you're looking to be stealthy!
>
> There is also the problem of pumping waste heat up to enormous
> temperatures, requiring something like 99.99% efficiency every step of
> the way.

Actually, if you are using a fusion reactor that involves magnetically
confined plasma, 8000 K is a quite *low* temp for the "exhaust" end of
the cycle. <g>


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:58:03 PST
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020401084647.D5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20401.025803.2u9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> On the other hand, a straight line course to the jump limit in a
>> direction at right angles to the line joining the start and end points
>> of the jump, and then accelerating at an angle to get the right vector
>> might be simpler. More time, but only two vectors to figure.
>
> Yes, it's simpler.  That's the course that ships lacking a navigator
> might take :)

Navigators prefer to minimize heading changes for some strange reason.
<g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:53:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:53:53 PST
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020401083839.B5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20401.025353.0o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> I'd say +/- 100 km/s is probably considered "good enough" most of
>> the time.
>
> For the destination system, yes.  Of course, if there is any leeway at
> all, freighter captains are probably going to arrive as "hot" as they
> can within those limits.  Time is money, and arriving with a 50 km/s
> inward vector instead of 0 saves about 3 hours.
>
> 3 hours doesn't necessarily sound like much out of a week's trip, but
> it does save about 5 Cr per dton of cargo and (probably more
> importantly) increases the chance of getting into port before a
> competitor does.

The problem is that if you were aiming for a point "ahead" of the
planet, and came out of jump late, your vector will be *away* from the
planet because you are now "behind" it. 

That is, your vector is pointed at where the planet was when you
expected to emerge from jump, which is behind where it is when you
*actually* come out of jump.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:03:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (P-O Bergstedt)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:03:29 +0200
Subject: [TML] GRUPS Traveller Reviews
Message-ID: <3CA85AA1.175A2553@berka.com>

Read some reviews of some new
GRUPS Traveller products at URL:
http://zho.berka.com/review.html

  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN
/ * A o \_____/       \_____
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:10:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 05:10:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] re: Real Life Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020330213337.009e8010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020401131058.13191.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Did somebody watch Jaws when they were not quite old
enough?  That would probably do it. :)

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I can't stand to be in water where I can't see the
> bottom.  I'm a basket 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:23:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 07:23:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] F15D Scorpion Recon Fighter TL 11
Message-ID: <3CA80B0E.6302.4EB743@localhost>

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Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body

A Recon fighter design for the Consort and Kiev, Thanks for the Inspiration Anthony



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The following section of this message contains a file attachment
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If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

   ---- File information -----------
     File:  F15C Scorpion 15T Fighter TL11.gtv
     Date:  1 Apr 2002, 7:16
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--Message-Boundary-11333
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-disposition: inline
Content-description: Attachment information.

The following section of this message contains a file attachment
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   ---- File information -----------
     File:  F15D Scorpion 15T Recon Fighter TL11.gtv
     Date:  1 Apr 2002, 7:21
     Size:  5184 bytes.
     Type:  Unknown

--Message-Boundary-11333
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QApBRVNBUmF0aW5nBQAAAAAAAAC8BEAQUmFkc2Nhbm5lclJhdGluZwUAAAAAAAAAnARAAAAA

--Message-Boundary-11333--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:30:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:30:54 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Playing around even more with the First In design sequence (hey, what else
am I supposed to do on a day like this?), I decided to calculate how the
number of places where complex animals (sentinent or non-sentinent) have
evolved are distributed over various world types.

I made a large (400.000 systems) data set, using a modifier of -11 to the
roll (in step 15) for icy rockballs with subsurface oceans. This is what I
came up with:

Subgiant :  1%
Nitrogen : 37%
Ammonia  : 20%
Desert   : 10%
Icy sub. : 11%
Earthlike: 21%

(ie 21% of all complex animals in the dataset evolved under Earthlike
conditions)

These numbers clearly do not match the OTU, since the most common forms of
advanced life there are evolved under Earthlike conditions (including all
of the major races).

I would be happy to try various modifications and see how they affect the
statistics, but I need something to aim for. How should advanced lifeforms
be distributed over the various world types?

Jon, all you need to do is to give me a set of percentages (as above), and
I'll happily tweak the modifiers to match those percentages.

A suggestion for a future reprint of GT: First In would be to include two
sets of modifiers for step 15: One that produces Traveller-like results,
and one that seems more in line with current science. To keep consistency
with the rest of the design sequence, the more realistic set would
probably be the default, while the Traveller-like set could be introduced
in a sidebar.

I think I may now call myself "rockhead"...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:40:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:40:59 +0200
Subject: [TML] Slightly OT: Transhuman space
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020330131738.009ec080@mindspring.com>
References: <20020330204047.4b56a9ad.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020330131738.009ec080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020401154059.1a5d3a2a.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Sleep when you're dead.  I haven't been able to determine if Warehouse
23 
> will deliver to the afterlife yet.  Damn fine book, and you can see why
i 
> want to adapt parts of it to Traveller.

I have now skimmed most of the book. Careful studies will have to wait
until I have properly studied what I really should study...  ;-)

I think I'll use this setting more or less as-is in order to introduce
some of my players to the joy of hard SF. If I tone down the most advanced
technologies a bit, things would be quite easy for newcomers to grasp.

Starting the game in 2041 would do the trick, focusing on the exposure of
the Ares conspiracy for starters, then more or less slowly (a few years at
a time) advance the campaign. This would allow all the developments to
come into focus, allowing exposure on every one of them.

Then, just for fun, I might throw in jump drive invention and the
encounter at Barnard's Star...  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 12:08:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:08:25 +0200
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <118.f28a399.29d90890@aol.com>
References: <118.f28a399.29d90890@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020401140825.473e1a87.jenry023@student.liu.se>

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> Probably because there are a lot more icy rockballs than there are
> Earthlike worlds.

Yes, absolutely. Also, icy rockballs are more likely to exist in older
star systems (around class M stars for instance), which increases the
complexity of native life.

Since canon doesn't have two thirds of all sentinent lifeforms living
under such conditions, the results are still strange to me.

These are my estimated probabilities of complex animal life (sentinent or
otherwise) on various world types:

Earthlike: 77%
Icy w/ subsurface: 46%
Nitrogen: 26%
Ammonia: 15%
Desert: 7%
Subgiant: 7%

If you want to tweak these numbers, what you need to do is to add
modifiers to the dice roll in step 15 of the design sequence.

Note: Since the design sequence is relatively complex, the exact numbers
should be taken with a grain of salt. In order to get better numbers, I
need to generate larger quantities of solar systems. I'll be happy to this
if you want better numbers.

> If you come up with an adjustment that seems right to you, let me 
> know - I'm told a reprint or second edition of First In is likely at
some
> point, so I'm assembling notes for changes to details of the world
> generation sequence.

Adding the following to Step 15 should do it:

"-X for icy rockballs with subsurface oceans"

where X is a number depending on the effect you desire.

X=0   Ten times more common than sentinence under Eartlike conditions
X=4   About five to six times more common
X=6   About three times more common
X=8   About 1.5 times more common
X=10  About 1.5 times LESS common (ie 0.67 times as common)
X=11  About 2.5 times LESS common (ie 0.4 times as common)

Note: The numbers above were relatively quickly generated, and are only to
be loosely trusted.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 12:12:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:12:23 +0200
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Timothy Little wrote:
<snip>
> Can a low-power organism afford power-hungry brain matter of the type
> you would expect for sentience?  If you're looking for an excuse, this
> should do.

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable explanation, thanks.  ;-)

Actually, the main reason I dislike the results is that they don't give
normal science-fiction settings. In a universe where the ideal habitat for
most sentinent races is an icy rockball, various classic SF stereotypes
don't fit in. In fact, in Traveller, most races are evolved under Eartlike
conditions, so the other numbers are also strange in that regard.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 14:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:13:17 -0500
Subject: [TML] 2 tons of beer and 4th place 8) (was CT Ship Design)
Message-ID: <OFCD639861.BF4D0240-ON85256B8E.004C0CE0@pheaa.org>







<snip>
>> about 7 months ago i entered the "Cortez" into Hot Rod Race. the Cortez
was
>> a modified Scout. well before the results where posted my company laid a
>> bunch of people off including me.
>>
</snip>
>>

>The Hot Rod race took place on the CT-Starships list.  The race results
were:
>                 Hellbent 20 pts
>                 Abrr Chatlqaf 19
>                 Princess Lucky 14
>                 Cortez 12
>                 Renown 10

WOO HOO! 4th place 8) i was so sure John and I would come in last. Not bad.
So you know Cortez is the scout ship of one of my NPC's Maria Vasquez. She
is a hot pilot and Johns char is a hot Engineer. between the two of them
nothing they can not do 8)

>Also, another quote re the Cortez...
--- In ct-starships@y..., "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@r...> wrote:
>> <snip>
>> My personal favourite design has to be Cortez, any ship that can stick
>> closely to the rules and still manage Jump-4, 5G  with 2 tons reserved
for
>> beer has to be a good design :)
WOO HOO!
I love it. if i can find a way to use this as my sig to the TML with out
spaming the rest of work with it ill do it 8) Besides you never work on a
hot rod with out beer 8)

Bill Lane

"My personal favourite design has to be Cortez, any ship that can stick
closely to the rules and still manage Jump-4, 5G  with 2 tons reserved for
beer has to be a good design :)" Jeff Greenly


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 14:32:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 09:32:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] City Class Frigate
Message-ID: <3CA86F98.CFB1CEB2@mindspring.com>

Be the first in your subsector to have a real Imperial Naval Warship
named after your city! Imagine the fun and hijinks when 75 sailors and
Marines drop into your daughters favorite club with 3 months of
accumulated pay. Send the name of your city, system and subsector to
Admiral Clarice X. Roman mailto:admiralroman@hotmail.com c/o the 100th
IN Fleet at Glisten, along with 0.02 Crimp.
Only the first twentyfour (24) cities to reply will have ships actually
named after them. The 0.02 Crimp fee is non-refundable. The Glisten
Naval Shipyard is not responsible for lost or delayed X-mail.

The keel for the original City Class Frigate "City of Son Son Solay" was
laid down in 1102 at the Bilstein Yards at Glisten/Glisten. A single
Squad Drop Tube allows insertion of up to 20 individuals, although
doctrine dictates that decoy capsules will be used to fill out a normal
15 man squad. Retrieval gigs are used as interface craft in combat
operations with the Armed launches performing non combat roles. 59 tons
of cargo allow extended patrols without resupply. The Secondary plant
powers the weapons and provides for an agility of two (2), unless the
beam Lasers are double fired, in which case the agility is one (1). The
City Class Frigate is most often seen in a task group of several ships
when the fleet is not massed for battle. Three squadrons serve with the
100th Fleet at Glisten. Ships are named for cities in the Spinward
Marches.

Craft ID:  City Class Frigate, TL 15, 1280.282 Mcr, Quantity discount
1152.254 MCr

 Hull:        1800/4500, Disp=2000, Config=5SL(Sphere), Armour=49G (3),
Loaded=23403.17, Unloaded=21652.58

 Power:    Primary 67/134, Fusion=18,000 Mw, Duration=720hrs/30 days,
Scoops, Purifiers(24 hours whole tank)
                Secondary 40/80, Fusion=10,800 Mw, Duration=72hrs/3
days,
                ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=1280hrs/53 days
 Loco:      90/180, Jump=4, 198/396 Maneuver=4G, Avionics-15 190kph,
Agility=0/2

 Comm:    Radio=System x2, Laser=System x2

 Sensors:  A-EMS (FrOb) x 2, Hi-Dnst-F (1km) x 2 , P-EMS (IntStlr) x 2 ,
Neutrino-E (10 Kw)  x 2
                Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=R  POP=R  PES=S  PEP=R

 Off:         20 Hardpoints, 20 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Bays:     100 ton Missile Bay-15 x1
                        Turrets:  Triple Laser-13     x 6 in 3 battery
                                      Triple Sand-10      x 4 in 4
battery
                        Missile magazine: HE=30 b/r, Nuclear=4 b/r
                         Total=1700 missiles. 1 b/r=50 missiles
                         Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Laser     5    -    -
                                           3
                             Missile   -   A    -
                                               1
                             Sand      4    -    -
                                           4

 Def:        Def DM= +7/9, Optimized Nuclear Damper-15 x1

 Control:  Computer=Model 7/fib w/ Circuit protection x 3,
Panels=Holographic Linked x 1823,  Large holo x 1,
               HUD holo x 30

 Accom:  Officers=14 Crew= 61 ( Bridge=4 Engineering=5 Gunners=26
Flight=14 Troops=14 Command=10 Steward=2)
               Small Staterooms=10, Bunks=70, Squad Drop Tube=1,
Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
               inertial comp, Airlocks x6

 Subcraft:  Retrieval gig x 2 (20 tons, Crew 3, TL 15), Armed Launch x 2
(20 tons, Crew 2, TL 15)

 Other:      Cargo=797.3 Kl/59.1 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=13619
Kl/1009 tons, ObjSize=Large
                One jump requires 6750 KL/500 tons of fuel


Author: Alan Spik

Canon notices: The Squad Drop tube is non canon.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
A man needs a mistress if only to break the monogamy
                                     -Unknown



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:07:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:07:36 +0100
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> A suggestion for a future reprint of GT: First In would be to include two
> sets of modifiers for step 15: One that produces Traveller-like results,
> and one that seems more in line with current science. To keep consistency
> with the rest of the design sequence, the more realistic set would
> probably be the default, while the Traveller-like set could be introduced
> in a sidebar.

This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might be.
Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in the
game universe are - IMO - dubious.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:14:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:14:56 GMT
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
Message-ID: <E16s3WK-0001Qf-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

I would like to see the document and give any comments if you please.

Beth
> Just finished going through what will be a rather long=20
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units=20
> in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may=20
> differ.
>=20
> But..  I need more input.  I've just moved a current day=20
> document a fair number of years into the future (out to TL10,=20
> so far), and I would like to take it a bit further, say TL12.
>=20
> I am interested in anyone's input concerning what might be=20
> standard operating procedure (instructions to individual=20
> soldiers, teams, and platoons).  Some of the detail I have is=20
> down to the items to carry.
>=20
> I am especially interested in what might be SOP in regards to=20
> weapons, employment of specific weapons (such as, "always use=20
> the plasma gun to break contact").
>=20
> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing=20
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages=20
> so far.
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:28:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:28:16 GMT
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
Message-ID: <E16s3jE-0001h7-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

Any chance of seeing these?

Beth

> I'd be interested to see this...
>=20
> In days past I used to write such manuals for a live-role-playing game=20
> based on 25th century space marines. These included a medical manual, EOD=
=20
> procedures and even the Uniform Code of Military Justice (a guaranteed=20
> cure for insommnia!).
>=20
> Hugs and kisses,
>=20
> Mexal,
>=20
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:49:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 07:49:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Real Life Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <20020401131058.13191.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020330213337.009e8010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401074834.009ecec0@mindspring.com>

At 05:10 AM 4/1/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Did somebody watch Jaws when they were not quite old
>enough?  That would probably do it. :)

No, I saw Jaws and went to the beach the next day.  In Santa Cruz, which is 
one of the biggest areas for Great Whites in the world.  I think sharks are 
tres cool.  I don't know what triggered this, it just *happened.*


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:12:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 08:12:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] re: Real Life Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401074834.009ecec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020401161227.27322.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

Well, after I saw Jaws, the deep end of a cloudy
swimming pool was almost too much.  :)

I can remember going to the beach with my parents as a
boy.  We would rent a catamaran.  On the Mississippi
coast they put posts in where the water gets over 4-5
feet deep at high tide.  I would panic and cry when my
parents wanted to go "past the posts" on the cat. 
Now, mind you, the deepest part of this chanel (in the
area we were) is about 13-15 feet at high tide.  And
the sharks are rarely if ever found between the beach
and the islands.

I think I am OK with the water now, but occasionally I
will still have a bit of anxiety.

ObTrav: I can imagine there are some who have panic
attacks on their first trip into space and even more
with their first trip into Jump.  Put one of these
NPC's on the Char's ship and a few minutes from the
Jump point he freaks out.  He will pay for the return,
but the other passengers don't want to waste the time.


Paul
--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 05:10 AM 4/1/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >Did somebody watch Jaws when they were not quite
> old
> >enough?  That would probably do it. :)
> 
> No, I saw Jaws and went to the beach the next day. 
> In Santa Cruz, which is 
> one of the biggest areas for Great Whites in the
> world.  I think sharks are 
> tres cool.  I don't know what triggered this, it
> just *happened.*


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:23:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:23:17 -0500
Subject: [TML] I must be a gearhead...
Message-ID: <200204011623.DDB00400@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was reading the FAS site, and they have this diatribe 
against low-yield earth penetrating nukes.  They say there's 
no way to build a weapon that would penetrate that deeply and 
still contain the burst.  Well, they put a link to the 
equations on the page, so I looked up the lowest yield of 
Davy Crockett, and the penetration of the GBU-28 (concrete 20 
feet, earth 100 feet), and it looks like I only need 60 feet 
of penetration.

So, if I wanted to kill a bunker, just put the bomb into the 
ground just short of the bunker and he's bunkmates with about 
4 kilotons of nuclear explosion.  A little venting from the 
entry path, but the retarc holds the rest in.

Sounds like a good missile for Traveller, eh?

Well, the person I'm arguing with at FAS says it isn't a very 
useful weapon.  Which brings me to another question, if 
you're opposed to nuclear weapons, why use a technical 
argument?  It would be better to stick to a moral/ethical 
objection, because if you give an engineer/gearhead enough 
money and time, virtually anything can be made to work.

Especially nuclear weapons and earth penetrators.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:46:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:46:56 +0100
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
References: <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>

> Actually, the main reason I dislike the results is that they don't give
> normal science-fiction settings. In a universe where the ideal habitat for
> most sentinent races is an icy rockball, various classic SF stereotypes
> don't fit in. In fact, in Traveller, most races are evolved under Eartlike
> conditions, so the other numbers are also strange in that regard.

I don't think that the presence of complex lifeforms in the oceans of an
Iceplanet, 10km+ under the surface, is likely to noticeably going to affect
the Traveller universe. It's not as if you are going to actually meet any of
them on a day to day basis.

Of course all the Major races evolved on Earthlike worlds... Its had to
develop a spacefaring civilisation then there is a kilometres thick ice
sheet between you and the stars (not that you'd even know they existed...)

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:51:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:51:51 -0500
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
Message-ID: <200204011651.DDB04154@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I like to have robots, but there's a certain tedium to Book 
8.  So far, I've resorted to just "saying" that a robot is a 
certain way.  I don't really like the Star Wars robots, but 
there is a certain edge to the robots as presented in AI 
(where they are "nearly" like us, but still imperfect).

How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:56:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:56:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] does that make me an apostate?
Message-ID: <200204011656.DDB04760@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

As I've gotten older, I've just gotten to doing some 
equipment by "it's about this long, about this heavy, etc.."

I've done the same thing with NPCs.

Sometimes FFS drives me nuts. 

I seem to be able to write about some things better if I just 
say things are "just so".

After all, can anyone out there take any of the robot design 
sequences and come up with Gigolo Joe?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:15:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:15:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017681340.6838.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
> 
> Actually, if you are using a fusion reactor that involves magnetically
> confined plasma, 8000 K is a quite *low* temp for the "exhaust" end of
> the cycle. <g>.

The problem is waste heat from on-board systems, not direct inefficiencies of
power production.  For example, life support produces heat equal to its power
consumption, at a normal temperature of around 300K.

Of course, the big power consumption of a ship is for drives and weapons, both
of which will have unknown (but lower) heat output.  Biggest problem is
weapons, which have somewhat canon efficiencies, that are rather low.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:29:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:29:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017682194.5758.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> I have the feeling that an Imperial ability to commandeer 
> your ship is a factor here.  Currently, the penalty for 
> failing to obey orders when boarded has a variety of 
> punishments, ranging from large fines, to loss of your 
> license, loss of your ship (which may belong to your 
> employer, not you), and probable jail time.  Even if they 
> don't find anything else wrong.

Huh?  How is this relevant?
> 
> There are probably locks of some sort.  But imagine if the 
> crew was disabled by a malfunctioning life support system, 
> and headed on a hazardous course.  Under your system, no 
> rescue crew would be able to board normally, and if they did, 
> they couldn't fly the ship.

First of all, locks designed to be used in port are presumably already disabled
after you've taken off.  Secondly, most rescue/patrol craft will be able to
deal with a ship with impaired drives anyway, just push it into a more sensible
orbit.
> 
> I would bet that some locking system exists.  But probably 
> not one that would then become more defensive if the locks 
> were bypassed.

It depends on where you plan on landing.  Free traders who land on insecure
worlds probably have pretty extensive security, bulk cargo carriers who never
leave the mains probably have rather limited security.

> The locks are probably designed to defeat the 
> majority of criminals, not those with sophisticated equipment 
> (like the Imperial Navy).  It's probably coded into the 
> ship's software by law -- even if they don't have the 
> password or keys to get in, the Navy can override your ship's 
> computer and seize control using simple, but sophisticated 
> equipment when they board.

Doubtful.  The IN can seize control via the simple, but sophisticated equipment
known as guns.
> 
> There might even be an interface that works through your 
> transponder's software.

Even less likely.  Information like that can be stolen, and if so, is vastly
more useful to terrorists and criminals than it could ever be to the Navy. 
Again, the Navy can seize control through the exotic technique of 'superior
firepower'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:33:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 12:33:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>

MJD said:
>This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
>First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might be.
>Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in the
>game universe are - IMO - dubious.

I take a much less dour outlook than MJD.  I haven't read it, but so many 
people keep telling me how great 'First In' is that I think it was 
absolutely a worthwhile book and intend to either buy a reprint/second 
edition or get the original from Traveller Trader at Downport.com.  Sounds 
like the future edition will be updated with Mr. Rydholm's suggestions.

Traveller books have been in need of various "fixing" since at least the 
first edition of Book 5 - High Guard.  If GDW had decided not to fix that 
with a second edition, we'd be worse off.  I think that if there's any 
lesson to be learned from these instances, it's that you should always try 
to do more playtesting, analysis, debugging, copy editing, and editing 
before releasing a product.  Imperium Games being the poster child for that 
need.

Thanks Jen, for doing a very useful and interesting exercise with the 
distribution of 'First In' world gen results.  That sound you weren't 
hearing was hard drives saving the info you posted.  And thanks to the 
author of 'First In' for seeking constructive criticism and incorporating 
it into your work.  It's bemusing that your response to the criticism was 
so mature and professional, when so many of the most famous game authors of 
other games would have been defensive and even combative if placed in your 
shoes.  I know they would, because I've seen them placed in your 
shoes.  From its start, Traveller seems to involve a better class of 
writers.  (We'll leave certain obvious exceptions out of that statement.  :-)

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:37:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:37:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] I just found the psionics institute
Message-ID: <200204011737.DDD02290@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.remoteviewing.com/

The company is named Psi-Tech.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:41:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 12:41:33 EST
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>

> This is what happens when people decide to "fix" 
> Traveller. First In does not produce Traveller 
> worlds - however realistic it might be. Design 
> systems that do not allow you to create what already 
> exists in the game universe are - IMO - dubious.

It may surprise you to learn that I entirely agree
with you.

First In had two main design goals: realism and support
for Classic Traveller world generation.

Unfortunately, the further I went the more I discovered
that the two were completely incompatible. CT worldgen
(including the extended system in Book 6) simply breaks
the laws of physics. Repeatedly. In ways that are very
hard to gloss over.

My response was to make "realistic" the default setting,
and include a number of notes demonstrating how to go
about something more Classic in style if that was to
your taste. In retrospect that was probably the wrong
strategy. At the time I wasn't sure what the biggest
part of the audience would be - long-time Traveller
players or newcomers. Clearly, I guessed wrong.

If First In goes to a second edition, I think the world
design sequence will default to something much more
like Book 6 worldgen, with "realism notes" allowing the
referee to flesh things out or substitute more realistic
steps to taste. (About the only thing that I would "fix"
in the default sequence would be the formula for world
surface temperature in Book 6, which is not only wrong,
but wrong in such a way that it actually makes Book 6
much harder to use.)

I suspect that would make First In considerably easier
for long-time Traveller fans to use in their established
Traveller universes - while still allowing folks who
roll their own to be as realistic as they choose.

---
Jon F. Zeigler
JFZeigler@aol.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:45:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:45:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020316125548.A20449@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Mar 16, 2002 12:55:48 PM
Message-ID: <200204011745.g31Hji001663@localhost.uia.net>

As I've mentioned before, I've been toying w/ the idea of
inertial suppression as a means of fast accelleration in an
sf-rpg I'm *slowly* putting together w/ the help of some
friends. However, there's some conflict over how to achieve
this (I can email two articles which hint at the scientific
premise to anyone who's interested). There's also the problem
of unintended consequences. Since inertial suppression also
exists in Traveller (so that ships can accellerate at 6G
w/o squashing their crews), it might be a good idea to
consider these consequences for a bit.

I wrote in an earlier post that onboard a ship where inertia
was being supressed:
> one crewmember shoving another would be like a
> feather shoving a feather. They would feel exactly the same thing
> and would react with their environment in exactly the same way,
> because apparent mass in reduced for the entire environment,
> including both of them.

Tim countered:
> So long as the forces are also reduced, no problem.  e.g. Suppose a
> person has their mass reduced by a factor of 1000.  Of course, such
> force ultimately comes from chemical energies.  But then you have to
> worry about activation energies of internal chemical processes
> necessary to life.  OK, so handwave them to near-zero as well.  So all
> chemical bonds must be 1000 times weaker to match the mass reduction.
> Furthermore, the charge on the electron and proton must be shifted
> downward by the same factor of 1000, or atoms are no longer stable at
> their normal size.  Likewise the strength of the strong nuclear force
> must be downshifted.
> 
> So, what does this mean for sunlight impinging upon the spacecraft?
> Each visible photon from the sun now vastly exceeds the binding energy
> of atoms in the hull, and behaves very much like an intense x-ray
> source capable of vaporizing any material.
> 
> Now, the energies of photons emitted *inside* the ship are 1000 times
> lower due to lower atomic transition energies, and hence have
> wavelengths 1000 times longer.  This plays absolute hell with all
> sorts of physical processes, so you'd better lower Planck's constant
> by a factor of 1000 while you're at it to fix this up.

Basically, if I read him right, what he appears to be saying is that
if you lower inertia in a given space by 99%, people in that area will
have much more strength than they're used to having, because the
chemical reactions going on in their bodies which generate energy
will still be generating as much energy, but for a much smaller
apparent mass, meaning that they'll be able to perform extrodinary
feats (and quite possibly hurt themselves), and that the only way
around this is to downscale everything else, which generates a
very strange and inconsistent reality.

What do other people think about this argument?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:45:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:45:14 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <00d001c1d9a5$0cff6560$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> I take a much less dour outlook than MJD.

I didn't mean to sound *that* negative! It's just that part of the canon
problem with Traveller is the endless series of canon-fixes that keep
appearing, giving the canonistas something to cannonade one another about.
Each fix seems to create more problems than it solves!

>
> Traveller books have been in need of various "fixing" since at least the
> first edition of Book 5 - High Guard.  If GDW had decided not to fix that
> with a second edition, we'd be worse off.  I think that if there's any
> lesson to be learned from these instances, it's that you should always try
> to do more playtesting, analysis, debugging, copy editing, and editing
> before releasing a product.  Imperium Games being the poster child for
that
> need.

Oh yes! Can't argue there. Hence the T20 delay...

>
> Thanks Jen, for doing a very useful and interesting exercise with the
> distribution of 'First In' world gen results.  That sound you weren't
> hearing was hard drives saving the info you posted.  And thanks to the
> author of 'First In' for seeking constructive criticism and incorporating
> it into your work.  It's bemusing that your response to the criticism was
> so mature and professional, when so many of the most famous game authors
of
> other games would have been defensive and even combative if placed in your
> shoes.  I know they would, because I've seen them placed in your
> shoes.  From its start, Traveller seems to involve a better class of
> writers.  (We'll leave certain obvious exceptions out of that statement.
:-)
>

Like whom?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:49:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:49:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
Message-ID: <200204011749.DDD03964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
effects when you modify Planck's constant.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:51:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:51:18 +0100
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00e301c1d9a5$e66a4540$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>>
> If First In goes to a second edition, I think the world
> design sequence will default to something much more
> like Book 6 worldgen, with "realism notes" allowing the
> referee to flesh things out or substitute more realistic
> steps to taste. (About the only thing that I would "fix"
> in the default sequence would be the formula for world
> surface temperature in Book 6, which is not only wrong,
> but wrong in such a way that it actually makes Book 6
> much harder to use.)
>
> I suspect that would make First In considerably easier
> for long-time Traveller fans to use in their established
> Traveller universes - while still allowing folks who
> roll their own to be as realistic as they choose.

Can't argue with any of this. I want realism in worldgeneration (I'm still
an engineer by mindset) but I also want compatibility with existing
unrealism. Is that unreasonable or what?? Call me hard to please if you
will... But anyway, I wouldn't worry about what I said too much. I like
First In overall...
MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:19:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 10:19:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] I just found the psionics institute
References: <200204011737.DDD02290@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8A4BE.6B18B1F0@attbi.com>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> http://www.remoteviewing.com/
> 
> The company is named Psi-Tech.

"Found?", Major Ed Dames And Psi Tech are major guests on the 
Art Bell Show. "Sides Psi Tech claims "anyone can do remote
viewing", and as we know the Psi roll is for PCs only....

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:23:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:23:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017685386.1051.ajackson@ping>

JFZeigler@aol.com writes:

> First In had two main design goals: realism and support
> for Classic Traveller world generation.
> 
> Unfortunately, the further I went the more I discovered
> that the two were completely incompatible. CT worldgen
> (including the extended system in Book 6) simply breaks
> the laws of physics. Repeatedly. In ways that are very
> hard to gloss over.

With the exception of small worlds with breathable atmospheres, what's so bad
about CT worlds?  All you need to do to produce traveller-like worlds is have a
system that produces around a hundred worlds per hex, and then picks the
lifelike one ;)

I actually put together something more or less like this, a while back; I
figured out based on the general world generator the probable distribution of
certain characteristics for earthlike worlds, and thus you can simply directly
roll up the 1% of worlds that are interesting.  You'd need to add rules for
generating any non-earthlike worlds (say, 50% chance of an earthlike world, 50%
chance for a non-earthlike middle-zone terrestrial world), but that's not too
hard.

http://maps.grandsurvey.com/hero/worlds.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:42:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:42:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] Comm check
Message-ID: <20020401.104247.-84283.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:10:39 -0600 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
> ping ping ping ping ping
> 
> Here we go again.
> 
> ISS Agena at the outer beacon.

Welcome Agena, good to see you again.
This is the IS Virgin Isle (5,000 dton luxury resort vessel), resounding
with two pings

<ping, ping>

Agena, perhaps this visit you'll  swing by for a visit.
I'm 90 degrees starboard, parked just outside marker two, range 2,000 kl.

Don't forget, our luxurious suites, casino, Jacuzzi's, health club,
exotic clubs, glorious dining, and we mustn't forget Andrea's Place. All
here waiting for you the weary traveller.


.--.   ...       .----   .----   -....   ---...   ----.       ..      
.--   ..   .-..   .-..       .--   .-   .-..   -.-       -...   .   ..-. 
 ---   .-.   .       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..       ..  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   .-   -.   -..       ---   ..-.       -
  ....   .       .-..   ..   ...-   ..   -.   --.   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:45:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:45:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV16h3lrGS1DknvCes0001cd0f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>

Bill Scheets aka Tex asks how hard is it to steal a grounded or docked 
starship IYTU.

My results vary.  In my first Traveller game, the entire small group 
decided they needed to boost planet and do it right away.  Confident that 
Laning's RPG would be just as fast and loose as everyone else's in our 
gaming club, they hopped the starport fencing and began strolling toward 
their nearby scout ship that was under guard while they were being 
investigated for certain previous actions.

Only to be confronted by a second and a third fence.  Sheer luck dictated 
that no guards were being attentive to their security cams and no patrols 
happened by.  But you'd think the sight of three fences, razor wire, and 
guard towers would tip them off that this was going to be a nontrivial 
task.  Aha! they say, only some fences and a guard tower, This will be 
easy.  Laning groans and looks at them, shaking his head.  Misreading these 
signs from the referee, they are even further emboldened.

At the airlock to the scout, I decide the best thing is to have the guard 
doing sentry duty aboard the ship should come out to talk to them, and give 
them a chance to talk their out of this.  Or at least talk their into 
reducing into a minor misdemeanor.  As soon as the door begins opening they 
all shoot him.

This was an early session of my game, and I really wanted to attract the 
players to return for more sessions in the future by making it fun for 
them.  Big, big mistake.  I figured the best thing was just let them take 
off, escape orbit, jump out, and assume the life of fugitives.  Well, if 
you let your players bully you once, they're only going to run even more 
amok in the future.  That game did not last long.  In other Traveller 
gaming, my universe has included all the ultratechnological, ultraparanoid, 
doublecheck and doublesafeguards that owners and insurers could think of 
against starships being damaged or stolen.  Just as you'd expect for 
something worth hundreds of millions of credits.

If that same party tried that same stunt again, I'd have the guards at the 
fence shoot them with tranq and they'd wake up in jail.

The example I gave was for a starship they already "owned" (technically, 
the retired scout was in the reserves and was responsible for the ship as 
property of the Imperial Scout Service).  There would be voice and keyboard 
commands at the airlock exterior, interior, engineering, and bridge 
hatchways.  Voiceprint and thumbprint verification required.  Piloting and 
engineering controls would have had the same requirements again.  An 
already-authorized and verified person on the interior could override the 
authorization process at the airlock so that routine embarkation and 
disembarkation of passengers and crew would not be cumbersome.  If set the 
shipboard security system is set to higher states of alert, then more than 
one person is required to get past authorization checkpoints, and/or more 
secret security codes must be used.  A ship belonging to the ISS in that 
situation would have been handled by the local legal authorities requesting 
the ISS help them.  The ISS would have had the pilot's normal security 
programs temporarily suspended and inaccessible, and replaced them with 
their own.  They have tools and overrides of their own for just this sort 
of situation.

If the guard who was aboard the ship had wanted to talk to the PCs when 
they reached his airlock, he would have just activated an intercom and 
spoken to them from the bridge, while waiting for the starport's SWAT team 
to arrive.  If the PCs had brought weapons or explosives capable of 
breaching the hull of the ship and gaining access, there would be automatic 
security programs would have taken over to incapacitate the 
boarders.  Including, lighting, temperature controls, random and extreme 
variations in the artificial gravity grid (from weightless state to 
negative one gee to positive one gee then back to negative one gee, etc.), 
locking down all interior and exterior hatches, and even evacuating air 
from different spaces.  Each individual grav plate is separately 
controlled, and there are preprogrammed routines for turning off all grav 
plates in a corridor except one which is turned to maximum, and sequencing 
which plate is turned to maximum so as to pull someone in the corridor to 
one end or the other of it.  With sufficiently high-powered grav plates, 
someone can be thrown into an airlock, for instance.

Insurance companies and mortgage companies insist upon certain security 
precautions for ships, and these must be thoroughly inspected during annual 
maintenance.  Most security systems can be controlled by anyone who knows a 
username and password, and their are heirarchical levels of security.  For 
instance, passengers can set a few security options for their own cabins, 
crew can set security options on low berths, etc. and the captain can 
override those settings and even lock out those individual users, and the 
owner can override the captain.  I rely on simple password and username 
because they are fast and only require either spoken or typed input from 
personnel.  Personnel who might be depending for their lives on getting 
fast access to security and controlling it.  There are also many closed 
circuit, neural activitiy sensors, and other sensors used to determine 
whether hatches are open or shut, bulkheads or hull is breached, and so 
on.  Security console(s) located on the bridge.

If the 'Alien' from the movie boarded my ship, I'd be able to pull all the 
crew to the bridge or main engineering control station, open the rest of 
the ship to vacuum, and read various sensors to know the precise location 
of the alien.  Hiding in ductwork in the ceiling would not make a 
significant difference.  If unable to throw the alien into open space by 
playing games with accelerating/decelerating the ship, gravity controls and 
air pressure, then a complete set of vacc suits for crew is kept in the 
ship's locker, accessible only from the bridge, as are weapons.  Subsequent 
events to be determined by the referee.  :->

A ship with maneuver-1 would typically only have internal artificial 
gravity of one gee.  This would be sufficient to deal with most unwanted 
boarders, even if only the ship's automated security routines are triggered 
and there is no crew aboard.  But it wouldn't be much deterrent to the 
'Alien'.  Ships with maneuver-6 would have internal gravity to match, and 
be able to hurl an unwanted boarder around from positive six gees to 
negative six gees.

If thieves manage to take control of the ship enough to lift off from 
planet, they'll still have to deal with starport and orbital traffic 
control.  This will include knowing what identifying call sign they are 
assigned, filing a flight plan, and getting clearances.  A docked ship will 
also have its security system linked to the starport, and if the security 
is triggered at any point, the starport security will immediately be 
alerted.  The thief will still have to somehow evade starport, COACC, and 
Imperial facilities, in most systems.  Think satellites, missiles, deep 
meson guns, and SDBs.

Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no 
scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the 
fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world 
in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL 13 
COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much less 
likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:58:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:58:21 EST
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <12d.f1855a6.29da07cd@aol.com>

I've been following the debate over the "First In" design sequence with 
interest. Part of the "problem" comes, I suspect, from an assumption that any 
world can develop a complex ecosystem.

This is unlikely since the complexity of the ecosystem is likely to be 
related to the available food sources at the bottom of the food chain. These 
will be severely limited on an Ice ball, even an old one. Hence the easy way 
round the problem is to cap the positive modifiers available for non-ocean 
worlds. I'd suggest +6 is a suitable number, altough I'm not an expert on 
First In so other numbres might be more suitable. 

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:13:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:13:40 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <F198zoDtLvggeHVTugl000061ac@hotmail.com>

>Can't argue with any of this. I want realism in worldgeneration (I'm >still 
>an engineer by mindset) but I also want compatibility with >existing 
>unrealism. Is that unreasonable or what??

Not really. In programing it's called being bug compatible...

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Johnny)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:14:52 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #365
References: <20020331161119.260AC279E7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c1d9b9$e469ca40$6501a8c0@yucca.net>

On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 23:32:40 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> Just finished going through what will be a rather long 
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units 
> in Traveller.  
> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing 
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages 
> so far.

I'm a lurker, but I'd be willing to reveiw it too. gamersvault@yucca.net 

- Johnny


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:29:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:29:32 -0700
Subject: [TML] GRUPS Traveller Reviews
References: <3CA85AA1.175A2553@berka.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8C32C.7020903@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

P-O Bergstedt wrote:
> Read some reviews of some new
> GRUPS Traveller products at URL:
> http://zho.berka.com/review.html

Aren't all grups reviews supposed to start 'Bonk bonk onna head!' ?? ;-)

> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:56:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:56:47 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <00d001c1d9a5$0cff6560$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>

MJD quotes and then asks:
> >From its start, Traveller seems to involve a better class of
> > writers.  (We'll leave certain obvious exceptions out of that statement.
>:-)
> >
>
>Like whom?

I mostly had the aforementioned Imperium Games in mind.  :-<

Thanks for setting me straight on your "level of dourness".  And I really 
loved your little exposition about "canonistas" and "canonades".  Keep up 
the good writing.  :->

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:57:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:57:58 -0700
Subject: [TML] room clearing
References: <200203312207.DBP01462@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8C9D6.9000605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> The only problem I have with the new room clearing technique 
> is that if people are expecting you, then all they need is a 
> long burst fire (belt fed) to keep you out of the room.
> 
> The new technique involves a team of 4 flowing into the room 
> and moving left or right as they flow in and occupy corners 
> of the room by flowing along the walls.
> 
> Might make an interesting scenario to game out using ACQ.
> 
> If the people flowing into the room have more actions per 
> combat round than the people occupying the room, it might 
> work. 
> 
> The use of grenades is now an exception in room clearing.  I 
> do remember throwing a simulator into a closet in MOUT 
> training, and being declared a casualty.  Maybe they have 
> something there.

I wonder how this compares, to, say, standard SWAT protocol for the 
same. They make extensive use of flashbangs (Presumably the 'stun 
grenade' mentioned in the link.

Presumably they are less likely to encounter return fire than soldiers 
clearing a room in a battle, but there's also the rather tricky (and 
now, all too common) mingling of non-combatants and combatants in 
today's battles.

Mis-calculate where enemy fire is coming from in a large building, and 
you could burst into the room next door, filled with refugees instead of 
bad guys.

All I can say is I DON'T want to be the poor sucker taking that #1 position.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:07:05 -0700
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <3CA8CBF9.3080002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Robert Houghton wrote:

> Actully I once saw a Catalina Flying Boat someone had refitted as a 
> mobile home winnebago style...thought this was as close to perfect as 
> you could get...if you could afford it...prolly only a little bit more 
> expensive as living on a boat and getting away for the weekend would be 
> a lot easier.

One reason that if I were to get filthy rich enough to afford it, I 
would get my own airplane: A C-130 outfitted as a flying RV.

They can land just about anywhere, even on unimproved runways, have a 
long range, parts are readily available, they're damn near 
indestructible, and there's a LOT of room.

I'm picturing two decks: a living deck and a garage deck, where you park 
your car/boat/atv's, hell you could carry along an ultralight asa 
'dingy' ;-)...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:22:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:22:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012122.DDL00281@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
>Subject: Re: [TML] room clearing  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>All I can say is I DON'T want to be the poor sucker taking 
that #1 position.
>

The more I think about it, the more I think it relies on 
having four people who are all well-practiced.  If you can 
all pour through the door before anyone inside can really 
react, it might work.  

Door charge set by #4 man blows door 
#1 man moves in, keeping back to the wall, moving to far 
right corner
#2 man buttonhooks to left near corner
#3 man right to right near corner
#4 straight left to far corner

Short bursts at any targets. Enter room with rifle shouldered.

The rapid pace is what is supposed to work here. Might be 
different in zero-g.

If you're slow, however, or unfamiliar, or get mixed up, 
you're going to get shredded.  I would bet that even an 
experienced team should practice this drill if they hope to 
pull it off.  For boarding, I would bet that the team might 
even do a drill on a stateroom or airlock on their own ship 
prior to boarding your ship.  Plus, they would call up 
deckplans and study them.

The other thing they would have going for them if they don't 
throw grenades (which are indiscriminate) is that they can 
enter multiple ingress points on the ship, with a lower rate 
of fratricide.  They can use the portable hull breaching/pier 
demolition charge to get into the ship.  Let's say two four 
man teams at each entry point, three entry points on a 400-
ton ship.  That's 24 men pouring into the ship without going 
through airlocks.

Looks like throwing grenades is for bunkers and for breaking 
contact.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:24:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:24:26 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <002401c1d9c3$ac6b2e40$6e9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >Like whom?
>
> I mostly had the aforementioned Imperium Games in mind.  :-<

Aha. My own pet hate is Imperium Games' editorial system, which actually
insterted spelling mistakes into my work! Spellchecker allowed to run
without supervision, I guess. Some of the writing was good. And some of it
set off the depressurisation alarms, it sucked so bad.

>
> Thanks for setting me straight on your "level of dourness".  And I really
> loved your little exposition about "canonistas" and "canonades".  Keep up
> the good writing.  :->
>

We aim to please... or is that shoot to kill?

Guess I'm just on a bit of a hair-trigger about all the people wanting me/us
to "fix" this or that about the Traveller universe, TNE, or GURPS Trav. Fix
it enough times and it'll be something completely different to what you
started with. Like my computer...

Regards

MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:40:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:40 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <memo.163716@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3CA8C9D6.9000605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Greetings dear hearts.

It's about 10 years since I was taught this... no, more, it was 1987...

The British Army method is: -

2-man entry team with 'mousehole' charge, blows a hole in outside wall of 
building (we don't come in the front door).

Someone chucks a grenade in, closely followed by a 2nd 2-man team 
who charge in through the hole, shooting.

Inside, working in two 2-man teams, you alternate between doing the 
grenade chucking and the charging in.

Of course, this method is only used if you don't care about the survival 
of anyone inside, or indeed much of the house itself!

The alternate method used for hostage rescue makes use of flash-bangs 
rather than frags, and shooting only occurs when a target has been 
positively identified.

Everybody, at least if you're infantry, learns the first, explosive 
method. The other one takes a lot of practice to get right...

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:44:04 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <3CA8CBF9.3080002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com>
 <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>

Living on an airplane would not be fun.  All that loud buzzing.  And the 
bad air.  Yuck.

My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.

I like to throw in people living out the Traveller version of this dream 
wandering from planet to planet, living on their converted merchant.  The 
more oft-encountered version of people living an imitation of this dream is 
the crew of a merchant that is family, or like a family together.  They 
still need to hustle for the credits to pay off the bank, keep the ship 
fuelled and maintained, etc.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:48:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:48:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

(Megan Robertson)  says
>Subject: Re: [TML] room clearing  
>
>The British Army method is: -
>
>2-man entry team with 'mousehole' charge, blows a hole in 
>outside wall of building (we don't come in the front door).
>
>Someone chucks a grenade in, closely followed by a 2nd 2-man 
>team who charge in through the hole, shooting.
>
>Inside, working in two 2-man teams, you alternate between 
>doing the grenade chucking and the charging in.
>

Yes, that's very similar to what was SOP just prior to the 
last technique.  What you describe above is what is known as 
Battle Drill #6.

Evidently there are problems with frags, and with two men 
trying to go in simultaneously.  There was a determination 
that two men are too few to handle things in a room if even 
one person is left alive after the grenade.  Three is now the 
minimum, and four is considered ideal.

And no frags!
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:52:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:52:37 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <000001c1d9c7$899aafe0$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>

Warren Buffett didn't seem to mind...

Matthew W. Helton


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of laning
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 15:44
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)

Living on an airplane would not be fun.  All that loud buzzing.  And the

bad air.  Yuck.

My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.

I like to throw in people living out the Traveller version of this dream

wandering from planet to planet, living on their converted merchant.
The 
more oft-encountered version of people living an imitation of this dream
is 
the crew of a merchant that is family, or like a family together.  They 
still need to hustle for the credits to pay off the bank, keep the ship 
fuelled and maintained, etc.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:52:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:52:59 +1000
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020401084436.C5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020402075259.B9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, if you are using a fusion reactor that involves
> magnetically confined plasma, 8000 K is a quite *low* temp for the
> "exhaust" end of the cycle. <g>

Yeah -- I wasn't actually counting the reactor as a direct source of
waste heat, since it has to be at least 99.99% efficient to provide
sufficiently high-quality power for pumping the *rest* of the waste
heat.

The problem comes with all the other ship's systems, the ones that
*use* the power provided by the reactor.  Obviously in stealth mode
you aren't thrusting or using weapons, but there's still environmental
support, sensors, control systems, LHyd cryo maintenance, and no doubt
hundreds of little things.  All of these would produce very low-grade
heat; probably at or near 300K.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:55:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:55:59 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <001f01c1d9c8$14f2af20$629193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> 
> My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
> twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.
> 
>

I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air force.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:08:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:08:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012122.DDL00281@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164502.02811320@pop.wizard.net>

Grenades are still for room clearing.  You just have to be judicious about 
using up your entire supply before you use up rooms that need to be cleared.

You also, as the link pointed out, have to be careful about not using 
powerful grenades in structures that will collapse.

And, of course you have to be careful to not clear a room that happens to 
include your own guys, or be in a room being cleared by your own guys.

No matter what specific drill you work out, speed and shock are still what 
you need to concentrate on using.  And judgment, heh.  The company 
commander's recommended room clearing drill seems effective regardless of 
its other attributes for three reasons.

(1) He gets a lot of people through the door in an extremely short 
time.  (Speed)
(2) He has a lot of people in the room all at once, each with automatic 
weapon as well as other fighting ability.  (Shock)
(3) The room clearing team has done a lot of practice and rehearsal.  (That 
makes any system work better.)

One other thing I'd like to note.  His drill assumes that you have the 
hallway(s) completely secured already.  As I recall, in European operations 
in WW2, things were often moving too quickly to have that luxury.  Or there 
weren't enough troops for it.

It all depends on the nature of the enemy and the nature of the 
terrain.  If the enemy is Nazi soldiers and the terrain is abandoned 
buildings constructed with strong materials and thick walls, then the "old 
battle drill" might work better.  If the enemy is militia and possibly has 
civilians nearby and the terrain is flimsily constructed buildings that 
sometimes have trouble with high winds, then his new battle drill might be 
better.

If I'm stuck defending a building that is being cleared by an enemy that 
has the superiority of force that the company commander seems to be 
implicitly assuming, then I would choose to withdraw from the building and 
pick a fight at a better time and place.  So yeah, his battle drill will 
succeed quite nicely at securing every room in the building.

If I'm clearing rooms with TL 12+ troops, then I think I'd rely a lot on 
neural activity sensors and advanced night vision that can see IR images 
through walls, depending on wall thickness.  My doctrine would be to have 
some assault troops with lots of personal armor protection do the room by 
room part, after less heavily armored troops secure the perimeter of the 
building or at least part of the perimeter.  I'd also try to use tranq gas 
or riot gas.  IIRC, US troops in Viet Nam found that CS was very handy for 
clearing rooms without increasing the number of civilian casualties even 
higher than it was already climbing.  If there was very little chance of 
civilians in the building, then I'd go with stun or frag grenades, 
depending on the structure.  Or maybe just lob some white phosphorous RAM 
grenades in from the street and shoot anyone who flees the burning building 
as it collapses.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:05:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:05:32 +1000
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20401.025353.0o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020401083839.B5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20401.025353.0o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> The problem is that if you were aiming for a point "ahead" of the
> planet, and came out of jump late, your vector will be *away* from the
> planet because you are now "behind" it. 

Oh, no!  Here we go with the discussion about which frame of reference
the jump emergence point follows, and the dynamics of moving 100D
limits :(

IMTU, jump emergence point is stationary with respect to the ship's
vector on jump entry.  Hence if the ship arrives late with an
inward-bound velocity vector, it will precipitate out on the planet's
100D limit.  This is even standard practice IMTU.


As far as I can see, there are three main contenders for how the jump
exit point moves:

1) Stationary with respect to the ship's entry vector.  This is the
one I use.  (However, it is not stationary in the relativistic sense,
just in a Galilean sense based on jumpspace)

2) Stationary wrt an absolute "jumpspace" frame of reference.  In
general, this will be moving at least a hundred kilometres per second
relative to most stars, and hence plotting an exit position is only
possible along a track a few million kilometres long due to time
variation in jump.  This seems to be the one you are assuming, but
contradicts the canonical accuracy of jump plotting so I discard it.

3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:11:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:11:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20020402075259.B9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017699082.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> The problem comes with all the other ship's systems, the ones that
> *use* the power provided by the reactor.  Obviously in stealth mode
> you aren't thrusting or using weapons, but there's still environmental
> support, sensors, control systems, LHyd cryo maintenance, and no doubt
> hundreds of little things.  All of these would produce very low-grade
> heat; probably at or near 300K.

Of course, rules notwithstanding, there's no real reason to assume that a ship
that's stealthy when idle is also stealthy when accelerating.  I suspect that
secondary systems (everything but active sensors, weapons, and drives) don't
have a routine power consumption of more than around .1 kW/dton, which means a
100 dton ship (for a sphere, 7 meter radius, cross-section 150 m^2 or so)
receives more sunlight than the amount of waste heat it needs to go with (by a
factor of about 20), which is sufficient to let it basically pump all of its
waste heat away in a very narrow angle.

The tricky part here is that you'll need a cryogenically cooled hull...plus
really really optimistic solar converters. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:12:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:12:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020401221258.43908.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com>

--0-1646151845-1017699178=:43005
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


 >> And no frags!  & 4 man teams

What about using stun grenades (flash/bangs?)  Are those useful at all?



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send greetings for Easter,  Passover
--0-1646151845-1017699178=:43005
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<P>&nbsp;&gt;&gt; And no frags!&nbsp; &amp; 4 man teams<BR><BR>What about using stun grenades (flash/bangs?)&nbsp; Are those useful at all?</P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br>
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--0-1646151845-1017699178=:43005--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:13:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:13:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> 3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
> planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.

This one has several things to recommend it, in particular the fact that it
cripples some of the simplest methods of relativistic bombardment.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:18:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:18:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip long evaluation about situation, etc.>

And the Army sums all of that up in "always consider METT-T 
when making decisions".  

The scale I'm thinking about is the typical Traveller party.  
They don't have enough bodies to do it right, on the 
average.  So they'll be throwing grenades.  But the soldiers 
who are fighting against a party might just rush in like this.

I'm not sure that you could move that quickly under zero-g 
conditions.

I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run 
on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship 
from stem to stern.  Arguably, orders are going to tell a 
military unit to use the least level of violence necessary to 
take your ship, but if you successfully resisted one boarding 
attempt, and they wanted the ship, they could just give you 
all the "treatment" and board after everyone dies of 
radiation.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:20:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:20:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] does that make me an apostate?
In-Reply-To: <20020401200104.BCEA627A48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sA9y-0003Dx-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

> As I've gotten older, I've just gotten to doing some 
> equipment by "it's about this long, about this heavy, etc.."
> 
> I've done the same thing with NPCs.
> 
> Sometimes FFS drives me nuts. 

Agreed.  Any design system you need a spreadsheet before is too 
complicated for any RPG I play.
 
> I seem to be able to write about some things better if I just 
> say things are "just so".

The only danger to consider is unintended consequences (ie PC 
being able to use a common device as a game-breaker), and 
design sequences don't help much with that.
 
> After all, can anyone out there take any of the robot design 
> sequences and come up with Gigolo Joe?

Book 8 isn't bad.  AB101 (also featured in the various Traveller's 
Digest adventures) isn't all that different from Gigolo Joe.  GJ is 
basically a TL15 pseudo-biological robot with the most advanced 
robot brain possible at that TL.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:21:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:21:48 +1000
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020402082148.D9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> These numbers clearly do not match the OTU, since the most common forms of
> advanced life there are evolved under Earthlike conditions (including all
> of the major races).

True, but a number of the major races actually evolved on *one* world,
and were moved later :)

It seems the Ancients preferred species who live under Earthlike
conditions, for some reason.  That would certainly skew the results.
Remember, the Traveller universe has been subject to at least one
major bout of technological tampering.

The other problem is that even if a sentient race evolved in the dark
depths of a subsurface ocean of an icy world, who would know?  Even if
hundreds of them are discovered, what are their chances of having
meaningful interaction with other races?  I mean, they live buried
under kilometres of ice; not a place many explorers are going to go.

They also probably require thousands of atmospheres of pressure for
survival.  i.e. Passenger fares will be *very* expensive.

That's without the problems of a race evolving sentience under
conditions of very low energy.  They have to live *on* something,
after all.  Even computers need power.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:23:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:23:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012223.DDN00369@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Justin Bunnell asks
>
>What about using stun grenades (flash/bangs?)  Are those 
>useful at all?
>
Flashbangs might be useful depending on the situation.  
People in sealed suits are not going to be affected very 
much.  Probably don't work well in vacuum.

But unsuited people in atmosphere in a confined space like a 
ship's stateroom, ideal.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:25:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:25:51 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
Message-ID: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"MJ Dougherty" says
>
>I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my 
>own air force.
>

Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)

You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles, 
but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up 
with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right 
positions in government for the die hards, it might work.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:30:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:30:45 +1000
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020402083045.E9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Timothy Little writes:
> > 3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
> > planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.

> This one has several things to recommend it, in particular the fact
> that it cripples some of the simplest methods of relativistic
> bombardment.

Actually no, we already know that the *ship* retains its original
velocity through jump.  It is just the motion of the *exit point*
during the time of uncertainty in arrival that I'm talking about.
i.e. You plan to jump to (t,x,y,z) in some coordinate system or other.
You arrive at t+dt, due to uncertainty in jump duration.  What are the
resulting values of x, y, and z?

In fact, option 3 makes relativistic bombardment *much* easier, since
you know the near-c object will always emerge near the planned
position relative to the planet.  Options 1 makes it significantly
harder, but option 2 makes it near-impossible.  Unfortunately, option
2 severely contradicts canon.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:36:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:36:56 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> >I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my
> >own air force.
> >
>
> Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
>
> You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles,
> but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up
> with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right
> positions in government for the die hards, it might work.
>
>

Cool! New Zealand is nice. And it's close to Doug's Penguin Emporium too.

OBTRAV: sell that Free Trader, buy a small land mass, and be your own
fascist dictator.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:37:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:37:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017700663.113.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run 
> on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship 
> from stem to stern.

Not without some means of penetrating the Unobtainium shielding used to make
gas giant refueling survivable.  At TL 17, an antimatter microgrenade would be
handy for area clearing, since the resulting radiation is grossly high
penetration; a microgram of antimatter would produce radiation with cosmic ray
level penetration (half dose at around 6 cm steel) and a dose of around 20,000
rads at 10 meters, despite only having the energy of 4-5 kilos of high
explosive and probably vastly less actual blast because a lot of the energy
escapes the immediate area.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:39:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:39:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

They already have something today that will zoom under your 
car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
even restart).

There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then 
have something like this land at your feet.  You might be 
left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.

Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:42:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:42:57 -0500
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
In-Reply-To: <002401c1d9c3$ac6b2e40$6e9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401170844.027d1130@pop.wizard.net>

MJD said:
>Guess I'm just on a bit of a hair-trigger about all the people wanting me/us
>to "fix" this or that about the Traveller universe, TNE, or GURPS Trav. Fix
>it enough times and it'll be something completely different to what you
>started with. Like my computer...

LOL, mine too.  Yeah, spell checkers that are dumber than human copy 
editors are definitely a pet peeve of mine, also.  And while I applaud the 
very human instinct to tinker with things to make them better, I also 
applaud someone with the judgment to know when to stop.

As far as Trav things that have been improved over time but I'm not so sure 
they should have been, I would like to consider the introduction of the 
task system.  The more time goes by, the more it seems to me that most 
players are most comfortable if they just know what number they have to 
roll higher or lower than, and what the dice modifiers are.  Most people 
don't like to be troubled with Impossible, Difficult, Routine, or other 
arbitrary names.  They just want to know the number.  And it doesn't matter 
how easy you make it to remember the hash table for translating from name 
to number.  It's just human nature.  I realize this assertion is not 
welcomed by a lot of veteran game writers, but I do wonder if the 
designer's instinct to tinker maybe went too far there.

I used to be _much_ more friendly to the idea.  But, age has distilled what 
I see as its essential features to just two things.  If it's a hash table 
that slows things down instead of speeding them up, then do away with 
it.  Saves trouble for everyone all around.

Insofar as introducing a task system also led to written guidelines in the 
rules helping referees know what was considered Impossible, Routine, etc., 
that was a good thing.  As a referee, I like to know what the game designer 
really had in mind for how to apply a particular skill to various 
situations.  I may or may not follow it, but it sure helps keep the game 
flowing to have it already provided, and it helps keep the game universe 
consistent for the referee and players.

Getting down to brass tacks even more, it wasn't really a case of 
"introducing a task system".  It was calling an existing process by the 
name 'task system', and adding some more bits and pieces to how the process 
worked.  Whether called 'task system' or not, you still had the process of 
the player (often with referee assistance, or the referee alone) 
determining degree of success or failure by rolling dice, then comparing 
the result to a rule set that modelled the real-world (or fantasy-world) 
difficulty level of that task as part of the game's design.

I am all for keeping the interface for that task as easy and comfortable as 
possible, consistent with the degree of complexity deemed necessary for the 
rule set.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:40:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:40:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020402083045.E9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017700837.7515.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> Actually no, we already know that the *ship* retains its original
> velocity through jump.  It is just the motion of the *exit point*
> during the time of uncertainty in arrival that I'm talking about.
Ok, yeah, misread what you were talking about.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:43:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:43:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017701001.1051.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> They already have something today that will zoom under your 
> car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
> even restart).
> 
> There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
> a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
> will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
> Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
> go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In fact,
gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing the thing will
short out all of its electronics, not to mention other nearby electronics.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:46:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:46:18 +0100
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401170844.027d1130@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <003101c1d9cf$1c812d50$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> LOL, mine too.  Yeah, spell checkers that are dumber than human copy
> editors are definitely a pet peeve of mine, also.  And while I applaud the
> very human instinct to tinker with things to make them better, I also
> applaud someone with the judgment to know when to stop.

Or at least to wait until the fix is coherent, universal, and final....

>
> As far as Trav things that have been improved over time but I'm not so
sure
> they should have been, I would like to consider the introduction of the
> task system.  The more time goes by, the more it seems to me that most
> players are most comfortable if they just know what number they have to
> roll higher or lower than, and what the dice modifiers are.  Most people
> don't like to be troubled with Impossible, Difficult, Routine, or other
> arbitrary names.  They just want to know the number.  And it doesn't
matter
> how easy you make it to remember the hash table for translating from name
> to number.  It's just human nature.  I realize this assertion is not
> welcomed by a lot of veteran game writers, but I do wonder if the
> designer's instinct to tinker maybe went too far there.

I like the T4 system of target number defined by skill and stat; difficulty
(number of dice) by the referee. It works, it's simple. I can remember it.
And since everything is Formidable in my games, you know you have to roll
3D... (!) It's not the same as the MT task system, but it does the same job
and (for me) it's intuitive.

Complex is not better, not-no-never!

>
> I used to be _much_ more friendly to the idea.  But, age has distilled
what
> I see as its essential features to just two things.  If it's a hash table
> that slows things down instead of speeding them up, then do away with
> it.  Saves trouble for everyone all around.
>
> Insofar as introducing a task system also led to written guidelines in the
> rules helping referees know what was considered Impossible, Routine, etc.,
> that was a good thing.  As a referee, I like to know what the game
designer
> really had in mind for how to apply a particular skill to various
> situations.  I may or may not follow it, but it sure helps keep the game
> flowing to have it already provided, and it helps keep the game universe
> consistent for the referee and players.

Yes. better to understand how this rule relates to reality than to be able
to read seven pages of examples and special cases....

>>
> I am all for keeping the interface for that task as easy and comfortable
as
> possible, consistent with the degree of complexity deemed necessary for
the
> rule set.
>
>

Being a Rules-Dumbass, I have to agree....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:47:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:47:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8CE2395.33F89%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 2:39 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> They already have something today that will zoom under your
> car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
> even restart).
> 
> There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
> a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
> will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
> Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
> go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).
> 
> It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
> have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
> left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.
> 
> Shades of Team Fortress Classic.

Isn't that why Military gear uses GaAs semiconductors?  IIRC, these are more
resistant to EMP (and more expensive too).  One would hope that all military
gear would be proof against this.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:48:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:48:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701001.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE23CA.33F8A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 2:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In fact,
> gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing the thing will
> short out all of its electronics, not to mention other nearby electronics.

What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:52:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:52:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
Message-ID: <200204012252.DDN03437@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>If it's a hash table that slows things down instead of 
>speeding them up, then do away with 
>it.  Saves trouble for everyone all around.
>

The problem I have with making corrections/changes/etc to the 
combat system of CT/Book 4 is that it is *very* easy to walk 
off the Cliffs of Complexity.

I am trying to avoid using tables, except a few during 
character generation to come up with your initiative and your 
actions.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:54:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:54:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701001.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020401225400.55216.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

Hmm, I wonder if battle dress uses fiber optics? 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:55:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:55:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012255.DDN03784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?
>
A very, very distinct EM signal.  I'm sure that a simple RF 
detector would be very cheap.

Imagine that on Regina, there are RF DF units on most tall 
buildings.  

Now, anyone cuts loose with a gauss or railgun (and if we 
listen for special capacitor discharges, any laser) and we 
know within a small area where and what type weapon was fired.

The law level is already a bit high there.  I could see it 
happenning.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:54:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:54:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401170844.027d1130@pop.wizard.net> <003101c1d9cf$1c812d50$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CA8E542.8E4259DC@premier.net>


MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> I like the T4 system of target number defined by skill and stat; difficulty
> (number of dice) by the referee. It works, it's simple. I can remember it.
> And since everything is Formidable in my games, you know you have to roll
> 3D... (!) It's not the same as the MT task system, but it does the same job
> and (for me) it's intuitive.

The way my referee handles many tasks, you start at Average; if you
succeed, you work your way up the chart until you fail.  The highest
level at which you succeeded determines the degree of success.  Forex, a
Tactics roll made at Average would enable a leader to form a workable
plan to carry out a given mission.  The same Tactics roll successfully
made at Average, Difficult and Formidable levels would allow that same
leader to create a plan that took the enemy by complete surprise and
caused the foe to surrender after only token resistance.
> 
> Complex is not better, not-no-never!

All depends on where the complexity is and how much it adds to the
gaming experience.  This is, of course, a situation in which _everone's_
mileage is likely to vary....

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:56:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:56:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE23CA.33F8A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017701795.5627.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 4/1/02 2:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> > 
> > Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In
> > fact, gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing
> > the thing will short out all of its electronics, not to mention other
> > nearby electronics. 
> 
> What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?

Presumably, one strong, sharp pulse lasting roughly the length of time it takes
for a bullet to go the length of the barrel.  Not immediately inclined to
figure out the total emitted energy, but I rather doubt that it's small.

Also, gauss weapon != railgun.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:06:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701795.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE27DC.33FBE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 2:56 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> 
> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.
> 

Yes.  According to Book 4, a gauss rifle seems more like a coil gun.  But is
there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  Railguns seem much
simpler for such an application.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:06:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:06:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012255.DDN03784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017702412.3010.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> Now, anyone cuts loose with a gauss or railgun (and if we 
> listen for special capacitor discharges, any laser) and we 
> know within a small area where and what type weapon was fired.

Fusion and plasma weapons will be plenty visible too.  You'll need to
triangulate from multiple sensors, of course, since it's long-wave and won't
give good directional information.

All the more reason to use a good old-fashioned chemical weapon (of course,
bullet noise detectors exist too).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:12:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012312.DDN05750@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>But is there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  
>Railguns seem much simpler for such an application.
>--

I've seen photos of a .45 caliber fully automatic coilgun 
from the WW II era (never more than an experiment).  The gun 
could operate off of vehicle power, and fired at pistol 
velocities and around 600 rounds per minute.

I saw this in the back of Popular Science not too far back 
(well, not all the way back to my childhood).

Would that be considered a "firearm" or even a "machinegun"?  
It looks like something that could be run off the same outlet 
as your washer/dryer.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:15:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:15:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE27DC.33FBE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017702953.7419.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> 
> Yes.  According to Book 4, a gauss rifle seems more like a coil gun.  But
> is there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  Railguns seem much
> simpler for such an application.

Shush.  We're talking canon, not reality.  As far as I can tell fusion and
plasma weapons are stupid ideas too, but canonical ;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:16:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:16:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017702412.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE2A4A.33FED%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 3:06 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> Fusion and plasma weapons will be plenty visible too.  You'll need to
> triangulate from multiple sensors, of course, since it's long-wave and won't
> give good directional information.

Won't you be able to get adequate info from start of pulse and two sensors?
why should wavelength matter, except in regard to the detection antenna.
RDF relies on signal strength.
> 
> All the more reason to use a good old-fashioned chemical weapon (of course,
> bullet noise detectors exist too).

Noise detectors can be fooled by sound suppressors and reflected noise.
Most bullet noise is from the ballistic crack anyway.  There is millimeter
wave radar in use that does a fine job detecting bullets and calculating
back trajectories,  Of course this does get tricky when there's a few
thousand projectiles going hither and yon.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:17:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:17:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Coilgun, or Everyone Go Out And Build A Gauss Rifle
Message-ID: <200204012317.DDO00214@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.oz.net/~coilgun/home.htm

Stone knives and bearskins.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:25:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:25:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIEFADIAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

Really?  Why dont the cops use them for those highway chases then?
Something that kills the engine would be real handy there...

>>They already have something today that will zoom under your
>>car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
>>even restart).


Justin

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:40 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] handy device


They already have something today that will zoom under your
car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
even restart).

There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.

Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



_________________________________________________________

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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:26:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:26:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE2A4A.33FED%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017703573.6212.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 4/1/02 3:06 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> > Fusion and plasma weapons will be plenty visible too.  You'll need to
> > triangulate from multiple sensors, of course, since it's long-wave and
> > won't give good directional information.
> 
> Won't you be able to get adequate info from start of pulse and two sensors?

You'll need at least three to be certain.  In any case, using two sensors is
triangulation.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:31:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:31:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401181557.00a8b2e0@pop.wizard.net>

JT Kwon wrote:
>And the Army sums all of that up in "always consider METT-T
>when making decisions".
Yes, exactly.  Just rephrasing Sun Tzu, really.

>The scale I'm thinking about is the typical Traveller party.
>They don't have enough bodies to do it right, on the
>average.  So they'll be throwing grenades.  But the soldiers
>who are fighting against a party might just rush in like this.
Aha.  I wasn't really thinking in that context.  Agreed, that they very 
well might.  My response to the starship-theft scenario was to decide that 
any decent-sized starport (in the Imperium) is going to have its own SWAT 
team.  So it might be the SWAT team who is assaulting.

>I'm not sure that you could move that quickly under zero-g
>conditions.
An excellent point.  You could launch yourself along a vector by pushing 
off a wall, etc. but you might have a tough time getting three or four 
people to burst into a room while staying close enough to touch each other, 
then split off into different directions as soon as each one just barely 
got inside the door frame.

Should make Zero-G Combat a desirable skill.  A skilled person would 
probably be able to bounce off the door frame as they enter and move 
practically parallel to the interior wall.  A little like getting skilled 
on a trampoline.

>I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run
>on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship
>from stem to stern.  Arguably, orders are going to tell a
>military unit to use the least level of violence necessary to
>take your ship, but if you successfully resisted one boarding
>attempt, and they wanted the ship, they could just give you
>all the "treatment" and board after everyone dies of
>radiation.

Good idea, but only when you don't care about trashing the rather expensive 
ship.  Hmm, if you have particle accelerators with relatively low power 
settings, then maybe you have meson guns and the luxury of being able to 
target them very finely.  Use neural activity sensors for targeting.  How's 
_that_ for a science fiction scene?  Arthur C. Clarke himself, sitting in 
the interior, wouldn't be able to distinguish it from magic as hostage 
takers in the cabin with him suddenly have large chunks of their bodies 
just disappear, with a release of some heat.

If it's a SWAT type situation, I think most SWATs would have robots 
somewhat smaller than humans, and would use breaching charges to crack open 
hatches or portholes and then insert the bots.  The bots wouldn't so much 
be fighting bots as exploratory scout bots.  Also explosive bots and 
gas-releasing bots.  Let's see, using neural activity sensors from outside 
the hull, you should be able to breach almost directly into the hull where 
the targets are.  They might also try to breach the hull where they can cut 
off power to the internal grav grid, or try to seize control of the 
internal grav grid.  Similarly, breaching the hull to open the interior to 
raw vacuum might be useful if the targets don't all have proper suits.  In 
general, you'd like to avoid breaching the hull, because that damage is 
more difficult to repair and make the ship spaceworthy again.  Breaching 
hatches and portholes is better.  IMTU.  YMMV.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:29:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:29:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012329.DDP00854@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Justin Bunnell" says
>
>Really?  Why dont the cops use them for those highway chases 
>then? Something that kills the engine would be real handy 
>there...
>

that's who it's marketed to.  It's a little flat rocket 
powered car that's about 1 foot x 2 foot.  It drops from 
under the chase car, zooms forward, and is guided under the 
target car.

I think that the EMP part works fine.  It's probably not very 
good on even slightly bad pavement, and you have to get it 
under the target vehicle.

I hear they have the same sort of thing for roadblocks, 
except that the target vehicle drives over the EMP device.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:39:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:39:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017700663.113.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401183213.00a8a050@pop.wizard.net>

Anthony Jackson quoted and wrote:
>John T. Kwon writes:
>
> > I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run
> > on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship
> > from stem to stern.
>
>Not without some means of penetrating the Unobtainium shielding used to make
>gas giant refueling survivable.

I had a similar thought about the unobtainium.  I think what John had in 
mind was toasting up the unobtainium just enough to cause it to throw all 
kinds of nasty radiation from the unobtainium hull itself.  Not crack the 
ship open, just induce severe radiation sickness in its inhabitants.

Depending on the properties of the unobtainium (crystaliron, bonded 
superdense, whatever) the ship may or may not become safe for human 
habitation in the next decade or more.  And of course, maybe the TL 15 
wizards can shoot another ray gun at the hull to make it stop being 
radioactive again.  Wouldn't that be handy?  Hmm, also handy for 
battlefield cleanup in all too many situations.  I could never figure out 
why the Traveller universe isn't _much_ more littered with radioactive 
wastelands than canon indicates.  Now if someone can just come up with an 
acceptable hand wave for the ray gun.  (Does anyone else remember the 
ionization denebulizer guns for kids?)

Neither materials science nor particle physics are my fields (obviously), 
but I think the gist of what I'm saying works anyway.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:37:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] F15D Scorpion Recon Fighter TL 11
References: <3CA80B0E.6302.4EB743@localhost>
Message-ID: <005701c1d9d6$22597000$a5d0f6d1@customer>

I can't read whatever format your designs are in.  Do you have a HMTL or
Text version.

John Scarlett

----- Original Message -----
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 8:23 AM
Subject: [TML] F15D Scorpion Recon Fighter TL 11


> A Recon fighter design for the Consort and Kiev, Thanks for the
Inspiration Anthony
>
>
>


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>    ---- File information -----------
>      File:  F15C Scorpion 15T Fighter TL11.gtv
>      Date:  1 Apr 2002, 7:16
>      Size:  6244 bytes.
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>


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:43:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:43:22 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
>And no frags!

Looking down pitifully at very large frag grenade with it's pin pulled and 
spoon just about to be released...

"Awwwww.  But Sa-arge?" comes the whine.

Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable sleeves and even 
the explosive charge can pull apart into three separate and working 
charges.  You can make your grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need it 
to be, pretty much.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:42:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:42:52 +0100
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
References: <200204012252.DDN03437@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003801c1d9d7$03a278e0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> 
> The problem I have with making corrections/changes/etc to the 
> combat system of CT/Book 4 is that it is *very* easy to walk 
> off the Cliffs of Complexity.
> 
> I am trying to avoid using tables, except a few during 
> character generation to come up with your initiative and your 
> actions.
>

Wise. Very Wise.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:45:02 +0100
Subject: [TML] room clearing
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <003f01c1d9d7$50c1d1c0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable sleeves and even
> the explosive charge can pull apart into three separate and working
> charges.  You can make your grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need
it
> to be, pretty much.
>
That sounds like something that troopers would break.
As in "if you leave three soldiers in the desert with an anvil, and come
back later, the anvil will be broken. And they won't know how it happened."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:47:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:47:19 -0800
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DB@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

You might want to try to find a copy of Yachts International Magazine.  Fodder for those dreams ;)

Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: laning [mailto:laning@wizard.net]
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 1:44 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)


Living on an airplane would not be fun.  All that loud buzzing.  And the 
bad air.  Yuck.

My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.

I like to throw in people living out the Traveller version of this dream 
wandering from planet to planet, living on their converted merchant.  The 
more oft-encountered version of people living an imitation of this dream is 
the crew of a merchant that is family, or like a family together.  They 
still need to hustle for the credits to pay off the bank, keep the ship 
fuelled and maintained, etc.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:50:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:50:33 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <001f01c1d9c8$14f2af20$629193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com>
 <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net>

I wrote:
> > My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a
> > twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.
> >
MJD responded:
>I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air force.

I want the yacht because it makes it a lot easier to travel to and visit 
all the places I want to see.  I've seen Greece for all of ten days, and 
that certainly isn't enough.  Just for starters.  Most of the world's 
population lives within twenty miles of navigable water I have read more 
than once, so it should make life convenient.

And yes, San Diego would be high on my list of places to spend some anchor 
time.  My friend went on an Alaskan coastline cruise in her yacht last year 
and loved it; it's the other direction but you may want to think about 
it.  Don't forget to watch John Sayles' movie 'Limbo' before you go.  :->

ObTrav:  Just where in the Spinward Marches would be the popular 
destinations for pleasure travellers with the means?  Would there be 
anything seasonal to the travel patterns?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:52:04 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185058.00a65e80@pop.wizard.net>

JT Kwon wrote:
>Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
>
>You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles,
>but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up
>with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right
>positions in government for the die hards, it might work.

The worst part is it's probably the New Zealanders on the list who are 
laughing the hardest at that.  :->

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:50:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:50:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012350.DDP03311@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable 
>sleeves and even the explosive charge can pull apart into 
>three separate and working charges.  You can make your 
>grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need it 
>to be, pretty much.
>
I've seen a modern German grenade that has a removable sleeve 
for frag/no frag.  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:51:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:51:46 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> > >
> MJD responded:
> >I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air
force.
>
> I want the yacht because it makes it a lot easier to travel to and visit
> all the places I want to see.  I've seen Greece for all of ten days, and
> that certainly isn't enough.  Just for starters.  Most of the world's
> population lives within twenty miles of navigable water I have read more
> than once, so it should make life convenient.
>

Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are
very handy for burglars...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:56:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:56:53 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>

MJD wrote:
>OBTRAV: sell that Free Trader, buy a small land mass, and be your own
>fascist dictator.

Which is sort of the the piracy issue brought up earlier.  If you can skip 
on your ship's mortage, or steal a ship, or pirate a ship just _one_ time 
in your life and sell the ship, then a lot of people would.  And in fact 
buy their own island somewhere.  Or live on the Spruce Goose or whatever 
their dream is.

Knowing most player characters as we do, it's no wonder so few referees 
like to let their PCs get possession of a ship, any ship.  Me?  I'd like to 
give players ships, I really would.  But what they'll do with the ill 
gotten booty from selling it terrifies me.

This has driven me to tinker with starship costs quite a lot, trying to 
reduce their value by orders of magnitude.  I still haven't found a 
solution that seems properly balanced.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:54:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:54:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
making MY windows rattle.

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:40 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] handy device


They already have something today that will zoom under your 
car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
even restart).

There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then 
have something like this land at your feet.  You might be 
left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.

Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:55:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:55:23 -0600
Subject: Soldiers Breaking Things (was: Re: [TML] room clearing)
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net> <003f01c1d9d7$50c1d1c0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CA8F36B.AD819CDD@premier.net>


MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
> > Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable sleeves and even
> > the explosive charge can pull apart into three separate and working
> > charges.  You can make your grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need
> it
> > to be, pretty much.
> >
> That sounds like something that troopers would break.
> As in "if you leave three soldiers in the desert with an anvil, and come
> back later, the anvil will be broken. And they won't know how it happened."

Reminds me of a comic strip in _The Paraglide_ (the Ft. Bragg post
newspaper) a number of years ago.  This particular edition of "G.I.
Bill" was on "The Thought Processes of a Private," which were broken
down into the following steps (this is from memory, but it should be
mostly accurate):

1.  Private hears question from sergeant ("How could you lose a 2 1/2
ton truck?!?")
2.  Ears send question to brain.
3.  Brain, not wanting to deal with question, sends question to stomach.
4.  Stomach mishears question as "What was that stuff they served for
lunch today in the chow hall?"
5.  Stomach sends answer to question to mouth.
6.  Mouth responds, "I don't know, Sergeant!"

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:58:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:58:20 EST
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
Message-ID: <193.4c190af.29da4e1c@aol.com>

--part1_193.4c190af.29da4e1c_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 02/04/02 00:53:39 GMT Daylight Time, 
martinjd@globalnet.co.uk writes:


> Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are
> very handy for burglars...
> 

I'm sure they are - think of the damage the little rascal could do when he 
got them home.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_193.4c190af.29da4e1c_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 00:53:39 GMT Daylight Time, martinjd@globalnet.co.uk writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are<BR>
very handy for burglars...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I'm sure they are - think of the damage the little rascal could do when he got them home.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_193.4c190af.29da4e1c_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:59:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:59:06 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017702953.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE344A.3401B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 3:15 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

>> Yes.  According to Book 4, a gauss rifle seems more like a coil gun.  But
>> is there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  Railguns seem much
>> simpler for such an application.
> 
> Shush.  We're talking canon, not reality.  As far as I can tell fusion and
> plasma weapons are stupid ideas too, but canonical ;)

I like railguns.  I like the idea of a gauss weapon with a muzzle blast and
noise.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:02:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:02:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE344A.3401B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017705741.4086.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> > Shush.  We're talking canon, not reality.  As far as I can tell fusion
> > and plasma weapons are stupid ideas too, but canonical ;)
> 
> I like railguns.  I like the idea of a gauss weapon with a muzzle blast and
> noise.

Why would a railgun produce either?  Aside from the sabot being ejected, and
the crack of the bullet, that is, and both would apply to coilguns too.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:07:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:07:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012350.DDP03311@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8CE3646.34024%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 3:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> laning says
>> 
>> Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable
>> sleeves and even the explosive charge can pull apart into
>> three separate and working charges.  You can make your
>> grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need it
>> to be, pretty much.
>> 
> I've seen a modern German grenade that has a removable sleeve
> for frag/no frag.

So called offensive/defensive or polyvalent grenades. There are a whole slew
of them.

I suspect you're thinking of the DM 51.  There's a removable plastic body
element containing steel shot that fits around an HE core and fuse.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:13:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:13:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204011749.DDD03964@vmms1.verisignmail.com> from "John T. Kwon" at Apr 01, 2002 12:49:19 PM
Message-ID: <200204020013.g320DTU02643@localhost.uia.net>

> I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
> effects when you modify Planck's constant.

Not talking about modifying Planck's constant. Only talking about
modifying inertia. Tim introduced the idea of modifying Planck's
constant as a device to keep strangeness from happening when
inertia is modified, but I'm not 100% sure that inertial suppression
would necessarily result in strangeness in the first place. Trying
to get some thoughts on the matter.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:22:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:22:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017705741.4086.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE39B4.34031%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 4:02 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
>> I like railguns.  I like the idea of a gauss weapon with a muzzle blast and
>> noise.
> 
> Why would a railgun produce either?  Aside from the sabot being ejected, and
> the crack of the bullet, that is, and both would apply to coilguns too.

Well, unless you are in vacuum, you get incandescent gas from the arc and
plasma.  See the photos of some real railguns at
http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons/tech/rail.html

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:32:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:32:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE39B4.34031%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017707545.2749.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:

> Well, unless you are in vacuum, you get incandescent gas from the arc and
> plasma.  See the photos of some real railguns at
> http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons/tech/rail.html

Hm...ideally you'd avoid arcing in the first place, since it's not at all
necessary for accelerating the round.  I guess some arcing is unavoidable,
though.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:05:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 20:05:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] I need to run a real life battle
In-Reply-To: <20020329.215011.-23887.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHEEPFCFAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

Do I get to use my shotgun?

-SRS-

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
> generalturokan@juno.com
> Sent: Saturday, 30 March, 2002 00:50
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] I need to run a real life battle
> 
> 
> Thank you TML
> 
> On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 17:48:18 -0800 generalturokan@juno.com writes:
> > 
> > Are there any volunteers?
> 
> I wish to thank all those who've responded off-line to my request.
> 
> Thanks a lot.
> 
> I wont need anyone else to volunteer.
> 
> 
> Gen. Turokan
> 
> 
> -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..       ..   ...       --   -.-- 
>     ...   .-   ...-   ..   ---   .-.   --..--      
>  ..       .-..   ---   ...-  .       .---   .   ...   ..-   ...      
> -.-.   ....   .-.   ..   ...   -       .--  ..   -   ....       
> .-   .-..   .-..       --   -.--       ....   .   .-  .-.   -   .-.-.-
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:10:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:10:19 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>

One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at
doorlocks etc...

How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior is
exposed to Vacuum?

Not many...

Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by
being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a recording
being played over radio)

I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices
relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad ID
number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the
card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you
have access to your account.

After all, you want security to stop casual access to secure areas, but not
so secure that it inhibits routine or emergency access.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:17:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:17:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>

Matthew Bond writes:
> One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's
> at doorlocks etc...
> 
> How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior
> is exposed to Vacuum?

How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use? 
There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
'security while everyone is away'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:22:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:22:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Accents and Bonuses
Message-ID: <gu1iau87ahojttup95thnjogcis4ps6ijl@4ax.com>

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 08:11:19 -0800 (PST), Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:

>ObTrav: A ship crewed by Orthodox Jews sets up so they will spend Passover 
>in jump.  They misjump, and come out of jump way early, on a course to hit 
>something large and fatal.  Your characters are passengers on said 
>ship..  Much fun happens.

Actually, _any_ of the rules can be broken if the alternative is one's own
death.  Including the Sabbath, and eating treyf.



--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:23:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:23:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Pinging the list
Message-ID: <tv1iauc8kg0u7pr0a2985fcfqb69fevomj@4ax.com>

Checking some odd behavior of my mail client and/or ISP.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:40:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:40:01 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <00c801c1d9e7$4e129d00$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?


> Matthew Bond writes:
> > One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint
ID's
> > at doorlocks etc...
> >
> > How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> > Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the
interior
> > is exposed to Vacuum?
>
> How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use?
> There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
> 'security while everyone is away'.

On any passenger carrying vessel, I would expect several areas to be Locked
routinely... Bridge, Cargo, Engineering, etc.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:45:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:45:41 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <00d401c1d9e8$18f2f420$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?


> Matthew Bond writes:
> > One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint
ID's
> > at doorlocks etc...
> >
> > How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> > Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the
interior
> > is exposed to Vacuum?
>
> How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use?
> There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
> 'security while everyone is away'.

And what happens if battle damage (or a micrometeoroid impact) has cause the
hull to become depressurised, while simultaneously causing a computer glitch
to activate the Locks used while in Dock...

If there is any chance that the lockable area needs to be accessed in vacuum
conditions, then I for one want a locking mechanism that doesn't require me
to expose any part of my body to vacuum.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:50:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:50:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1d9e8$18f2f420$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>

Matthew Bond writes:

> And what happens if battle damage (or a micrometeoroid impact) has cause
> the hull to become depressurised, while simultaneously causing a computer
> glitch to activate the Locks used while in Dock...

Well, odds are the lock won't work at all then.  Plus, who says you're going to
put a thumbprint lock on the _inside_ of the lock?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:03:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:03:55 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <20020401200104.BCEA627A48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c1d9e9$a2218e40$f6b18b90@computer>

> From: laning
> Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no
> scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the
> fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world
> in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL 13
> COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much less
> likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.

One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:56:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:56:24 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer>

> From: "MJ Dougherty"
> Cool! New Zealand is nice. And it's close to Doug's Penguin Emporium too.

Sadly, somebody already owns New Zealand.  It's just not considered polite
to talk about it.  The same applies to Papua New Guinea, East Timor, and a
bunch of other countries.

> OBTRAV: sell that Free Trader, buy a small land mass, and be your own
> fascist dictator.

That's my favourite kind of game these days.  I've got to the point where
starships barely appear any more.

"Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got a
harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a fusion
reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own army.
What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania thinks he
has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us independent
enclaves to make sure he doesn't."

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:57:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:57:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <003d01c1d9e9$a2218e40$f6b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017712657.2060.ajackson@ping>

Alan Bradley writes:
> > From: laning
> > Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no
> > scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the
> > fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world
> > in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL
> > 13 COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much
> > less likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.
> 
> One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?

Um...most likely something he's not supposed to be doing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 02:01:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:01:13 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017712657.2060.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CA910E9.25637C99@premier.net>


Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Alan Bradley writes:

<<snip>>
> >
> > One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?
> 
> Um...most likely something he's not supposed to be doing?

Pining for the fjords?  (Or, for GT players, pining for the fnords.)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 02:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 03:08:08 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?


> Matthew Bond writes:
>
> > And what happens if battle damage (or a micrometeoroid impact) has cause
> > the hull to become depressurised, while simultaneously causing a
computer
> > glitch to activate the Locks used while in Dock...
>
> Well, odds are the lock won't work at all then.  Plus, who says you're
going to
> put a thumbprint lock on the _inside_ of the lock?

Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:07:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:07:17 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com> <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane>

Alan tells us:
> "Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got a
> harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
> schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a fusion
> reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own army.
> What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania thinks he
> has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us independent
> enclaves to make sure he doesn't."

Yeah, I know what you mean.  That seems to be the way my Traveller game is
gravitating.

I suppose it's the eternal hazard of lavishing too much detail on the worlds
your PCs visit:  They start getting these crazy notions of settling down and
setting up shop!  While I enjoy exploring the "going native" part of the
game, it's also unbelievably frustrating at times.

I really don't want to allow this kind of behaviour.  Maybe it's because I'm
afraid of commitment. Uhm.. To a single world, that is.  Or simply that I
just can't let go of the "traveling" aspect of Traveller.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Proponent of Planetary Polygamy
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 02:25:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:55:47 +0930 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
In-Reply-To: <200204011651.DDB04154@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204021153350.24002-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi John:

On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> I like to have robots, but there's a certain tedium to Book
> 8.  So far, I've resorted to just "saying" that a robot is a
> certain way.  I don't really like the Star Wars robots, but
> there is a certain edge to the robots as presented in AI
> (where they are "nearly" like us, but still imperfect).
>
> How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?

 Been way to long since I looked at Book 8. As for bots in my game world.
U used some ideas from a Challange article on Shadowrun and images  for my
mind from the High Colonies game  Mainly now besides sercant bots on
tracks or wheels. The others encountered are "pig iron" Secutrity type
that are armed.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:16:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:16:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204020316.DDW00039@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bulkhead Doors

Bulkhead doors can be either a retracting door or an iris 
valve.  Which one is more common depends on YTU.  In canon, 
they are iris valves.

All bulkhead doors have a basic mechanical mechanism, which 
can be operated in a powered or non-powered mode.

All bulkhead doors have an mechanical lock which has a 
powered assist.

All bulkhead doors have a pressure indicator, both a powered 
indicator and a manual pin.  If there is vacuum on the other 
side, and air on your side, the pin slot shows a depression.  
If you are in vacuum and there is pressure on the other side, 
the pin sticks out.  If the pressure is equal, the pin is 
level with the surface.  Some ships, military and scoutships 
in particular, will also have fire and radiation sensors at 
every bulkhead door.

In an emergency, the door can be unlocked manually and 
operated manually. The manual lock requires a key, which all 
ship's personnel carry.  It is rather large, and easy to 
handle with gloved hands.  Usually, all keys are the same, 
except for keys leading to the bridge and engineering, which 
are both different by custom.

On military ships, all keys are kept in cases near each 
door.  For special secure areas, the keys are under Marine 
guard.

If the door still has power, and the key is used to operate 
the door, an alarm will sound in that section and on the 
bridge.

For more convenience, bulkhead doors are usually used in 
powered mode.  There is a sensor pad next to the door, which 
can detect a keycard within 10cm.  If the keycard is valid, 
the buttons which operate the door are enabled: there are two 
buttons which change color by status:  lock/unlock and 
open/close.  There is a convenience pocket in vacc suit 
sleeves (right and left) into which a crewman usually has a 
keycard.  The pocket is closed with velcro.

Airlocks

Airlocks have two bulkhead doors: inner and outer.  The 
airlock is equipped with pressure sensors inside and outside 
the airlock (including inside the ship).  There are 
additional controls in the airlock which also respond to the 
keys which are used to control the pressure in the airlock 
itself.  Scout ships usually have a more exotic external 
atmosphere sensor, which can also be monitored from the 
bridge. At least one door on passenger ships has a weapons 
detector and explosives/powercell sniffer.

Even if the ship is on the ground, and there is breathable 
air, if you open the inner door, the airlock chamber has 
warning lights that come on.  If there is vacuum outside and 
atmosphere inside, a warning will sound in that section and 
on the bridge.  Once you close the inner door, you can open 
the outer door.  In order to open both doors at once, it 
requires that you manually operate the doors -- this cannot 
be done using the electronic controls.

Now, as for securing the ship against theft while on the 
ground:

The ship's computer operates in a different mode when landed 
or docked, as opposed to under way.  Once the ship's computer 
is not in "under way" mode, a specific crewman's sensor key 
and password is required to change the mode.  Logon to ship's 
computers is a combination of the sensor key and a password.

If you can't log on and don't have permission to change the 
mode, you can't operate the engines, sensors, weapons, etc.

Additionally, the ship, while not "under way", will sound an 
alarm if one of the airlock or cargo bay doors is opened 
manually or forced.  This alarm can be sent to a 
predesignated communicator (the captain's, for instance).  
This alarm can be set through the ship's computer for any 
door.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:49:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:49:00 -0500
Subject: [TML] does that make me an apostate?
In-Reply-To: <200204011656.DDB04760@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401224644.00cdd1a8@192.168.0.1>

At 11:56 AM 4/1/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>As I've gotten older, I've just gotten to doing some
>equipment by "it's about this long, about this heavy, etc.."
>I've done the same thing with NPCs.
>Sometimes FFS drives me nuts.
>I seem to be able to write about some things better if I just
>say things are "just so".
>After all, can anyone out there take any of the robot design
>sequences and come up with Gigolo Joe?

Once the Tech level get's high enough, it would be easier to make a 'bio-bot'
Mostly human tissue grown in a vat and a programmed brain.  GURPs Robots 
would be my choice for design.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:52:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <3CA8C9D6.9000605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200203312207.DBP01462@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401224917.01b08448@192.168.0.1>

At 01:57 PM 4/1/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>John T. Kwon wrote:
>>The only problem I have with the new room clearing technique is that if 
>>people are expecting you, then all they need is a long burst fire (belt 
>>fed) to keep you out of the room.
>>The new technique involves a team of 4 flowing into the room and moving 
>>left or right as they flow in and occupy corners of the room by flowing 
>>along the walls.
>>Might make an interesting scenario to game out using ACQ.
>>If the people flowing into the room have more actions per combat round 
>>than the people occupying the room, it might work.
>>The use of grenades is now an exception in room clearing.  I do remember 
>>throwing a simulator into a closet in MOUT training, and being declared a 
>>casualty.  Maybe they have something there.
>I wonder how this compares, to, say, standard SWAT protocol for the same. 
>They make extensive use of flashbangs (Presumably the 'stun grenade' 
>mentioned in the link.

Flash bangs are also quite dangerous in confined spaces.  The big 
difference between that and fragmentation grenade is lack of fragmentation 
in the Flashbang.  You still have about the same amount of explosive material.

>Presumably they are less likely to encounter return fire than soldiers 
>clearing a room in a battle, but there's also the rather tricky (and now, 
>all too common) mingling of non-combatants and combatants in today's battles.
>Mis-calculate where enemy fire is coming from in a large building, and you 
>could burst into the room next door, filled with refugees instead of bad guys.
>All I can say is I DON'T want to be the poor sucker taking that #1 position.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!
Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:51:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:51:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
References: <200204011651.DDB04154@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA92ABA.54139D45@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?

I use book 8 and 101 Robots. My players currently use a batch of
obsolete TL 12 (MT) floor models including a traderbot, engineeringbot,
valetbot, medibot, constructionbot and agrobot. They take a perverse
delight in using the agrobot to take care of livestock for the vargar
steward to eat. As the TL goes up they become more "sophantlike" until
TL16 they begin to have personalities.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I eat babies. I drink pee. I must be French!, French!, French!
                  -Nathan Lane & Chris Katein



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:56:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:56:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE2395.33F89%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401225457.01da10b0@192.168.0.1>

At 02:47 PM 4/1/2002 -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 4/1/02 2:39 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> > They already have something today that will zoom under your
> > car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
> > even restart).
> > There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
> > a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
> > will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
> > Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
> > go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).
> > It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
> > have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
> > left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.
> > Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
>Isn't that why Military gear uses GaAs semiconductors?  IIRC, these are more
>resistant to EMP (and more expensive too).  One would hope that all military
>gear would be proof against this.

Extensive shielding and redundancy are parts of my handwaves on why 
Traveller computers are so darn big.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:58:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 21:58:01 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane>
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com> <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer> <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <ojaiaukds95jfm1e8hbvvfhdk7e51bpoec@4ax.com>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:07:17 +1000, "Shane Slamet"
<s.slamet@bom.gov.au> wrote:

>Alan tells us:
>> "Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got =
a
>> harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
>> schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a =
fusion
>> reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own =
army.
>> What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania =
thinks he
>> has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us =
independent
>> enclaves to make sure he doesn't."
>
>Yeah, I know what you mean.  That seems to be the way my Traveller game =
is
>gravitating.
>
>I suppose it's the eternal hazard of lavishing too much detail on the =
worlds
>your PCs visit:  They start getting these crazy notions of settling down=
 and
>setting up shop!  While I enjoy exploring the "going native" part of the
>game, it's also unbelievably frustrating at times.
>
>I really don't want to allow this kind of behaviour.  Maybe it's because=
 I'm
>afraid of commitment. Uhm.. To a single world, that is.  Or simply that =
I
>just can't let go of the "traveling" aspect of Traveller.

This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
(or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.

=46rom a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become part
of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:15:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:15:14 -0600
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
References: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping> <20020402083045.E9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CA93052.B595C25F@pobox.com>

Timothy Little wrote:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
> > Timothy Little writes:

>>As far as I can see, there are three main contenders for how the jump
exit point moves:...

> > > 3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
> > > planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.
> > This one has several things to recommend it, in particular the fact
> > that it cripples some of the simplest methods of relativistic
> > bombardment.
> Actually no, we already know that the *ship* retains its original
> velocity through jump.  ...
> In fact, option 3 makes relativistic bombardment *much* easier, since
> you know the near-c object will always emerge near the planned
> position relative to the planet.

I vote for option 3, although it does contribute to the near-C rock dilemma.
I have used it IMTU with a slight twist...the 'direction' of the ship's vector
on arrival is also relative to the body with the greatest gravitational field,
i.e. the planet.  So if you accelerate out from the planet and jump, you
arrive still heading away from the planet.

Under this model. it makes sense for merchants (and others) to jump with zero
velocity (relative to the planet).  It also means that anything which comes
out of jump with an inward vector (comes in 'hot') had to work hard to do
that, by travelling past the jump point, and then turning around and
accelerating back inward before jump.  Since most of the reasons for wanting
to do this are military in nature, system defenses are very hostile to ships
which come in 'hot'.

I deal with near-C rocks in another way, which I will post in a separate
thread so that all present can shoot holes in it ;-).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:11:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:11:40 -0600
Subject: [TML] Another Power Source For FF&S2?
Message-ID: <3CA92F7C.B45F42C3@premier.net>

Herewith my First of April contribution to the TML.  Enjoy!

While getting caught up on the Temple ov thee Lemur Web site, I noticed
that they had an article about a potato-powered Web server.  The FAQ, in
response to the question "How much energy can you get out of a potato?",
answered thusly:

"Again, this varies considerably. Using the zinc/copper electrodes that
we have at present, we get a voltage of about 0.8V (+-0.1V) and a
maximum sustainable currrent of about 15mA. We can draw this current for
about 15 hours before we notice an appreciable drop, so a back of an
envelope calculation of total useful energy would be in the region of
650J."

http://totl.net/FAQ/features/spud/

Should we add chemoelectric potatoes as a power plant option in FF&S2?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:02:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:02:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017702412.3010.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204012255.DDN03784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401195939.009fdcd0@mindspring.com>

At 03:06 PM 4/1/02 -0800, you wrote:
>All the more reason to use a good old-fashioned chemical weapon (of course,
>bullet noise detectors exist too).

But sound echoes..

Yesterday, being Easter, Colma's cemetaries were filled with Chinese 
families paying their respects to their ancestors.  This involves 
firecrackers.  Lots of firecrakers.

There are 45,000 bodies in Colma, close to half of them Chinese.  The town 
sits in a valley, and is *filled* with marble sound reflectors.

It sounded like a bloody battalion-sized firefight.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:14:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:14:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>

At 12:41 PM 4/1/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Unfortunately, the further I went the more I discovered
>that the two were completely incompatible. CT worldgen
>(including the extended system in Book 6) simply breaks
>the laws of physics. Repeatedly. In ways that are very
>hard to gloss over.

LOL!  Very true, very true...


>My response was to make "realistic" the default setting,
>and include a number of notes demonstrating how to go
>about something more Classic in style if that was to
>your taste. In retrospect that was probably the wrong
>strategy. At the time I wasn't sure what the biggest
>part of the audience would be - long-time Traveller
>players or newcomers. Clearly, I guessed wrong.

Not entirely true.. those not interested in scientific accuracy tend not to 
bother with extended design systems.


>If First In goes to a second edition, I think the world
>design sequence will default to something much more
>like Book 6 worldgen, with "realism notes" allowing the
>referee to flesh things out or substitute more realistic
>steps to taste. (About the only thing that I would "fix"
>in the default sequence would be the formula for world
>surface temperature in Book 6, which is not only wrong,
>but wrong in such a way that it actually makes Book 6
>much harder to use.)

Hey, I like it just fine.  The only thing I would change is move the 
sections on mapping and animal encounters behind the population details.

>I suspect that would make First In considerably easier
>for long-time Traveller fans to use in their established
>Traveller universes - while still allowing folks who
>roll their own to be as realistic as they choose.

For the record, for Trojan Reach I'm making adjustments to the classic 
information.  Mostly, this is changes stellar types, and changing the sizes 
of worlds that are way to small for their listed "uses."  I'm trying to 
keep the feel of the worlds while making them fit the math.

It's a tightrope, and I hope everyone approves.

(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:22:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <002401c1d9c3$ac6b2e40$6e9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401201741.009f0020@mindspring.com>

At 10:24 PM 4/1/02 +0100, you wrote:
>Guess I'm just on a bit of a hair-trigger about all the people wanting me/us
>to "fix" this or that about the Traveller universe, TNE, or GURPS Trav. Fix
>it enough times and it'll be something completely different to what you
>started with. Like my computer...

"Fixing" world generation doesn't have to be backwards compatible; if you 
want to have Mars-sized worlds with thick atmospheres, it's your hand wave.

In my experience, playing with the rules that the Gods of Nature and 
Physics give us is far more interesting, with odd results like the 
intelligences under the ice that Jens came up with...

For example: these races are all psionic, and have their own "Imperium" 
connected by telepathy and interstellar teleports.  They manipulate us to 
protect their own interests.  Interesting setting, especially when someone 
twigs to the secret.. y'see, *these* are the Ancients!  Al, the Yaskodray 
business is misdirection on their part.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 23:12:36 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <ojaiaukds95jfm1e8hbvvfhdk7e51bpoec@4ax.com>
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com> <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer> <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane> <ojaiaukds95jfm1e8hbvvfhdk7e51bpoec@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1dfiauodt52jg11nh29p9a68ulq7t55aer@4ax.com>

On Mon, 01 Apr 2002 21:58:01 -0600, JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
wrote:

>This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
>There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
>(or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
>sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
>example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.
>
>From a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become part
>of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
>destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
>becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.

Damn.  "Villains"

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:15:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David & Kristin Larson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 21:15:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] RE: John Kwon's SOP
In-Reply-To: <20020401233807.357B8279F7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1da05$6c754180$0300000a@c263000a>

John, I'd also be willing to review your SOP. I'm sure it's something I
could use and I'd be more than willing to pass on any thoughts or ideas
(probably give a different branch perspective as well).

David Larson
dlarson@blarg.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:43:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David & Kristin Larson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 21:43:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] RE: Room Clearing
In-Reply-To: <20020401233807.357B8279F7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c1da09$61259ba0$0300000a@c263000a>

Flash-bangs are in relatively common use (at least I've had no problem
getting them from the ASP).

The biggest factor regarding the use of frag grenades I've come up with is
the likelihood of 1) friendlies in the room (hostages, etc) and 2) the
likelihood of a frag/round punching through the wall. Lined up outside the
door, pressed against the wall is a bad place to be if you're about to
perforate said wall with fragments. Assuming the absence of friendlies and
the presence of strong walls, more boom is better. :)

Of course you always have to consider how badly you *want* to clear the room
or building. Sometimes it's just better to *remove* the building than to
preserve it for future use. YSMV (your situation may vary) ;)

Reading one of the earlier posts regarding the mechanics of room-clearing, a
key point was unclear: when entering the room (assuming a common four-sided
room) the four team members enter as fast as they can alternating moving to
the left and right along the two walls. As they move in they can clear what
they see, but each has a well defined sector that they are responsible for
and must clear. Just because you see a target doesn't make it your shot
(only if your sector is already cleared and no teammates are in the way). As
you move into the room your *available* sector of fire, that which you can
fire into, starts very large but then very rapidly shrinks to a tiny
fraction of what you had. That's why you sweep through the room rather than
point yourself directly at you corner.

Assuming your the number one man and your SOP has you entering and moving
left, your sweep as you enter the door will start in the center of the room
and rapidly sweep to the left corner. As you move towards that corner you
sweep back to the right towards the opposite corner until the room is clear.

OnT: This is not something that the ordinary Traveller group should attempt,
especially against trained opponents. Even if the defender is of a poor tech
level, poorly armed, etc he still holds an advantage. The only real asset
you have is shock and speed. This is a skill that must be trained over and
over and rehearsed repeatedly and against a wide variety of room and
situations. Just image a group of engineers and stewards trying something
like this during a 'hostage rescue' scenario, especially once surprise is
lost. The outcome is left to the imagination.

David
dlarson@blarg.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 06:21:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:21:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sHfY-0003IO-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

> John T. Kwon writes:
> > They already have something today that will zoom under your 
> > car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
> > even restart).
> > 
> > There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
> > a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
> > will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
> > Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
> > go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that difficult to 
build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate power 
battery.  
 
> Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In
> fact, gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing
> the thing will short out all of its electronics, not to mention other
> nearby electronics.

I've a few comments and questions here:

1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this 
shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be 
overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP? 

2) While military equipment wil be shielded, many worlds would 
likely strongly prefer if civilian weapons were not, since having a 
way to stop everyone's guns from working would be a godsend for 
cops (who would presumably also have shielded weapons).   

3) Even if you don't get the weapons, cutting off someone's comm 
will at least stop them from calling for backup.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:28:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:28:21 -0600
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV158oWo7w0nGEbJ8M00012276@hotmail.com>

> I have the feeling that an Imperial ability to commandeer
> your ship is a factor here.

Actually legal forms of "theft" such as comandeering and repossession didn't
enter my mind when I posted, but I can see that these issues are integral to
the question under discussion.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:02:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:02:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <DAV58nLJm2ZBNCogiwH0001b30b@hotmail.com>

As soon as the door begins opening they
> all shoot him.

PCs who went too far?  I'm shocked!<G>

Oddly enough this closely resembles the head-in-the-sand failure to realize
that actions have consequences that so often precedes crime in real life.

> If that same party tried that same stunt again, I'd have the guards at the
> fence shoot them with tranq and they'd wake up in jail.

Ahh, the Prison Campaign...

>there would be automatic
> security programs would have taken over to incapacitate the
> boarders.  Including, lighting, temperature controls, random and extreme
> variations in the artificial gravity grid (from weightless state to
> negative one gee to positive one gee then back to negative one gee, etc.),
> locking down all interior and exterior hatches, and even evacuating air
> from different spaces.  Each individual grav plate is separately
> controlled, and there are preprogrammed routines for turning off all grav
> plates in a corridor except one which is turned to maximum, and sequencing
> which plate is turned to maximum so as to pull someone in the corridor to
> one end or the other of it.  With sufficiently high-powered grav plates,
> someone can be thrown into an airlock, for instance.

A beautiful description of exactly what I meant by "Does the environmental
system become hostile?).  Nice!

>
> Insurance companies and mortgage companies insist upon certain security
> precautions for ships,

Big time!  I can envision insurance inspectors who make the rounds at
starports, conducting unannounced inspections on policyholders.

> If the 'Alien' from the movie boarded my ship, <snip> Subsequent
> events to be determined by the referee.  :->

I liked the movie, but I always thought the crewmembers of the Nostromo had
way too much trouble getting their act together.

>
> If thieves manage to take control of the ship enough to lift off from
> planet, they'll still have to deal with starport and orbital traffic
> control.  This will include knowing what identifying call sign they are
> assigned, filing a flight plan, and getting clearances.  A docked ship
will
> also have its security system linked to the starport, and if the security
> is triggered at any point, the starport security will immediately be
> alerted.  The thief will still have to somehow evade starport, COACC, and
> Imperial facilities, in most systems.  Think satellites, missiles, deep
> meson guns, and SDBs.

Agreed.  Clearly
Step 5. Getting Away
needs to be included.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:40:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:40:01 -0600
Subject: [TML] Stealing Starships - More
Message-ID: <DAV43jxq6pgtq33Z4WN00012b23@hotmail.com>

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I think Matt has raised good points about the dubious usefulness of =
biometric systems for applications that may have to accessed in vaccuum.

Voice prints may become an even more fussy issue, at least as far as the =
exterior hatch goes.  Not only suit radios - but also atmospheric =
compostion and pressure - can alter the human voice.

Many have raised the point - correctly, it seems to me - that there will =
be different levels of security in place for different environments or =
circumstances, even on the same ship.

The product of security and convenience is a constant.  In other words, =
the more security you have, the less convenience - and vice versa.  For =
this reason, if for no other, there will be different levels of =
security.

I can think of several different circumstances that would all cry out =
for different levels of security:

Grounded (not at a starport) with at least one trusted crewmember =
aboard.
Grounded and unoccupied.
Berthed (at a spaceport) with at least one trusted crewmember aboard.
Berthed and unoccupied.
Underway with no passengers.
Underway with passengers.=20

And since we've come to this juncture - what exactly does an anti-hijack =
program do?  Does it scan boarding passengers for weapons?  Monitor =
patterns of passenger movement for suspicious activity?  Compare facial =
features against a known database of offenders? =20

Is it completely passive? ("Sorry to interrupt Captain but five =
passengers are approaching the bridge with weapons and shaped charges")

Or do automated systems take an active role in defending the ship in the =
event of a hijack? (ZAP "Correction Captain.  Make that four =
passengers." ZAP "Sorry.  Three.")  Perhaps if the vessel is taken and =
the Captain doesn't enter an override command, the A-H program scrams =
the power plant.  Or maybe the ship is experimental, powerful, or =
otherwise very _interesting_ in which case the A-H program decides to =
scuttle in 30 minutes...

I _do_ love to give PCs a deadline.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com




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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I think Matt has raised good points about the =
dubious=20
usefulness of biometric systems for applications that may have to =
accessed in=20
vaccuum.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Voice prints may become an even more fussy issue, at =
least as=20
far as the exterior hatch goes.&nbsp; Not only suit radios - but also=20
atmospheric compostion and pressure&nbsp;- can alter the human=20
voice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Many have raised the point - correctly, it seems to =
me - that=20
there will be different levels of security in place for different =
environments=20
or circumstances, even on the same ship.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The product of security and convenience is a =
constant.&nbsp;=20
In other words, the more security you have, the less convenience - and =
vice=20
versa.&nbsp; For this reason, if for no other, there will be different =
levels of=20
security.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I can think of several different circumstances that =
would all=20
cry out for different levels of security:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Grounded (not at a starport) with at least one =
trusted=20
crewmember aboard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Grounded and unoccupied.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Berthed (at a spaceport) with at least one trusted =
crewmember=20
aboard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Berthed and unoccupied.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Underway with no passengers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Underway with passengers.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>And since we've come to this juncture - what exactly =
does an=20
anti-hijack program do?&nbsp; Does it scan boarding passengers for=20
weapons?&nbsp;&nbsp;Monitor patterns of passenger movement for =
suspicious=20
activity?&nbsp; Compare facial features against a known database of=20
offenders?&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Is it completely passive? ("Sorry to interrupt =
Captain but=20
five passengers are approaching the bridge with weapons and shaped=20
charges")</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Or&nbsp;do automated systems take an active role in =
defending=20
the ship in the event of a hijack? (ZAP "Correction Captain.&nbsp; Make=20
that&nbsp;four passengers." ZAP&nbsp;"Sorry.&nbsp; Three.")&nbsp; =
Perhaps if the=20
vessel is taken and the Captain doesn't enter an override command, the =
A-H=20
program scrams the power plant.&nbsp; Or maybe the ship is experimental, =

powerful, or otherwise very _interesting_ in which case the A-H program =
decides=20
to scuttle in 30 minutes...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I _do_ love to give PCs a deadline.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:texasredshift@hotmail.com">texasredshift@hotmail.com</A></=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 06:46:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:46:59 +0100
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <007701c1da12$42ee6230$8d9493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
> stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
> making MY windows rattle.
>

I want plasma grenades for that....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 06:58:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 01:58:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <003f01c1d9d7$50c1d1c0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402015737.02815a50@pop.wizard.net>

>That sounds like something that troopers would break.
>As in "if you leave three soldiers in the desert with an anvil, and come
>back later, the anvil will be broken. And they won't know how it happened."

I sometimes think the entire purpose of boot camp was to teach me to 
convincingly say, "The private don't know, sir."

ObTrav:  Umm.  I'd better stop posting on this thread because I can't think 
of one.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:15:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 02:15:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
In-Reply-To: <200204012252.DDN03437@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402020141.02817660@pop.wizard.net>

JT Kwon says:
>The problem I have with making corrections/changes/etc to the
>combat system of CT/Book 4 is that it is *very* easy to walk
>off the Cliffs of Complexity.
I agree.  What was most needed when MT came out (still is?) was for someone 
to take all CT rules and carefully synthesize them together into one volume 
to get rid of conflicts, ellipses, bits of char gen that improved one 
career but were still missing from older careers, etc.

That was chiefly what I was looking for in MT.  A revised and smoothly 
functioning CT.  Revised rule systems are all well and good, but I want a 
complete and coherent, nonbuggy, smoothly functioning rule set.

The next thing I was looking for was a lot more detailed world data in the 
Spinward Marches, and possibly noble and other governmental NPCs who run 
the Spinward Marches.  The adventures tended to gloss over a lot of 
stuff.  I realize there are different tastes there.  Some referees dislike 
having it all dictated to them.  I prefer having it all pregenerated for 
me, debugged and consistent with the rest of the universe, and using my own 
preferences and judgment to alter or throw out the stuff that suited me.

The other thing I was looking for was more cool science-fiction gizmos, 
preferably accompanied by really good gizmo illustrations.  Sometimes, one 
picture of ...a grav belt, let's say, is worth a few hundred well-chosen words.

Well before MT was issued, I tried taking Striker, Snapshot, the original 
three LBBs, Mercenary, etc. and reconciling all the weapon ranges and 
damage.  I gave it up for a lost cause.  I would have willingly parted with 
hard-earned cash to pay someone else (like GDW) to do it.

>I am trying to avoid using tables, except a few during
>character generation to come up with your initiative and your
>actions.

Mmmmm, I think well-designed tables with just the right accompanying 
titles, captions, and text blurbs can be extremely valuable.  I'm not shy 
about using them.  Excellent design, excellent writing, and excellent 
layout must all converge when it comes to tables in rule books.  But, 
ideally most of those extra chunks of reference and rule system will be 
modular, so the "nongearhead referee" can dispense with it and run the 
simple version quite easily and happily.  But let's not resurrect that 
debate, please.  Forget I ever mentioned.  This is not the rule-design 
droid you are looking for.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:13:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:13:16 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEFOCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
>
>Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
>stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
>making MY windows rattle.

No, I want the EMP grenade to shut off the cars whose xenon headlights are
blinding me, from behind, even when I've switched my rearview mirror to the
polarized position.  Hell, a parabolic mirror with a computer chip for
aiming would probably be enough to get them to back off.

The weapon I'm trying to figure out is an equalizer for pedestrians.
Anything that will actually stop or otherwise neutralize a moving vehicle
that is about to violate a crosswalk will have a danger space that includes
the pedestrian (like a LAW, M203, Panzerfaust, etc.) at typical engagement
ranges.  Anything safe for the pedestrian will not actually stop the vehicle
before impact -- the .44 magnum will shut down the engine, but the car will
keep on rolling.  Many weapons will neutralize the driver, but again, the
car will keep going.  It's a poser.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:22:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 23:22:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16sHfY-0003IO-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B8CE9C2B.34116%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 10:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that difficult to
> build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate power
> battery.  

I have yet to be convinced that such things will work, and be at all
effective.  Particularly as the  strength of burst will be inversely
proportional to the to the square of the distance.  Has anyone actually seen
a demonstration where this works?  It should be rather easy to test.

Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical martial
arts 'death touch'.
> 
> I've a few comments and questions here:
> 
> 1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this
> shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be
> overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP?

Gauss weapons won't need any complex and delicate circuitry if they're
anything like railguns.  I don't expect them to be vulnerable to EMP anymore
than a 1950s Chevy would be.
> 
> 2) While military equipment wil be shielded, many worlds would
> likely strongly prefer if civilian weapons were not, since having a
> way to stop everyone's guns from working would be a godsend for
> cops (who would presumably also have shielded weapons).
> 
> 3) Even if you don't get the weapons, cutting off someone's comm
> will at least stop them from calling for backup.

Common will certainly be more vulnerable, as will computers.  And the
government better tread lightly before using EMP.  Will hospitals be EMP
proof.  Patients with implants.  What about the impact on civil commerce?
Governments don't exist in vacuo. And count on sophisticated bad guys on
have stuff that's a good as what the cops and the military have, if not
better.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:23:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:23:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEFOCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>
>This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
>There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
>(or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
>sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
>example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.

Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's kind
of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not doing any more
jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the character
becomes motivated to take this one, last job.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:19:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:19:47 +0800
Subject: [TML] F14C Scorpion class light fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEIAEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Having apparently inspired people do do versions of this fighter for other
rules sets. It is about time I posted the original F14C Scorpion.

F14C SCORPION CLASS LIGHT FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION


The F14 Scorpion class of light fighter was at one time the most numerous
light fighter used by the Solomani Confederation. It was still in service in
large numbers with second line Solomani forces up to the final collapse, and
was used both as a subordinate craft on some larger starhips, and as a
planetary based fighter. The -C variant was the most numerous type, the
earlier -A and -B variants having been upgraded to the -C model. The earleri
versions mostly differed in the weaponry fitted.

General Data Displacement: 15 tons  Hull Armour: 40
Length: 15 meters  Volume: 210 cubic meters
Price: MCr22.494663  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 354.6512/318.5954 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 117Mw Fusion Power Plant (117Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (1.315Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 4 (18.25Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 40 , 2.28125 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 9

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 60,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 120,000km
Active EMS (4 hexes; 16.5Mw), 3xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 1xWorkstation

Armament Offensive: 1xTL13 50Mj Laser Lance (Loc: 1/4/5; Arcs 1; 13.889Mw;
No Crew), 4x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 4 7-ton missiles or recce drones

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
50Mj Laser Lance  4:1/5-17  8:1/3-9  16:1-4  32:1-2
-2 Difficulty Levels

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0118 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.5889 Mw)
Crew: 1 (1xManuever/Electronics/Gunner)
Crew Accommodations: 1xWorkstation
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 1.6 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 42 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.173 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  	Systems
1  	1-17:Ant  		1-10:Lance,11-20:Elec  	ELS-1H,
2-3  	Ant  			Elec  			LS-1H,
4-5  	Ant  			Hold  			LT-1H,
6-7  	Ant  			Hold  			Lance-1H,
8-9  	1-4:Ant  		Hold  			PP-1H,
10  	1-3:Hatch  		Qtrs  			All others-(1h),
11-13				Hold
14-15	1-11:Missile  	1-13:Grapple,14-20:Hold
16-17				1-14:Eng,15-20:Hold
20   				Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:19:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:19:49 +0800
Subject: [TML] RF14D Scorpion class light recon fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPEEIAEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

This is the recon version of my F14 Scorpion light fighter.

RF14D SCORPION CLASS LIGHT RECON FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION


The -D variant of the F14 Scorpion is the light reconnaisance version. The
major differenc between the -C and -D versions is the fitting of a more
capable sensor suite in the -D at the expense of most of the fighters
armament. A second workstation has also been provided to share the work load
of the fighter.

General Data Displacement: 15 tons  Hull Armour: 40
Length: 15 meters  Volume: 210 cubic meters
Price: MCr32.006997  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 315.6526/295.4188 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 106Mw Fusion Power Plant (106Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (0.1132Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 4 (16.25Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 42 , 2.03125 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 7

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 120,000km Passive EMS Folding Array (4 hexes; 0.15Mw), 60,000km
Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 300,000km Active EMS (10 hexes;
27.5Mw), TL13 Densitometer (0.9Mw), TL12 Neutrino Sensor (0.01Mw), 3xRunning
Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 2xWorkstations

Armament Offensive: 2x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 2 7-ton missiles or
recce drones

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0124 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.6191 Mw)
Crew: 2 (1xElectronics, 1xManuever/Gunner)
Crew Accommodations: 2xWorkstations
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 0.2 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 42 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.03125 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  	Surface Hits  		Internal Explosion  		Systems
1-5  		Ant  				Elec  				ELS-1H,
6-7  		Ant  				1:Qtrs,2-11:Elec,12-20:Hold  	LS-1H,
8-9,11-13  	Ant  				Hold  				PP-1H,
10  		1-3:Hatch,4-20:Ant  	Qtrs  				AEMS-(2h),
14-15  	1-5:Missile,6-20:Ant  	1-7:Grapple,8-20:Hold  		Neutrino-(2h),
16-17  	1-2:Ant  			1-15:Eng,16-20:Hold  		All others-(1h)
18-19   					1-15:Eng,16-20:Hold
20   						Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 03:34:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Another Power Source For FF&S2?
In-Reply-To: <3CA92F7C.B45F42C3@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402033354.00a72bf0@pop.wizard.net>

John Groth says:
>Should we add chemoelectric potatoes as a power plant option in FF&S2?

Renewable energy that helps out with life support systems.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:31:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:31:01 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> This has driven me to tinker with starship costs quite a lot, trying
> to reduce their value by orders of magnitude.  I still haven't found
> a solution that seems properly balanced.

Do what I did in my GURPS game: make FTL drives cost comparable to
maneuver drives, and let them have a second- (or tenth-) hand ship.
This method should be applicable to Traveller; let's see...


Yes, okay.  If Jump-2 engines for the minimum 100 dton ship cost 1 MCr
instead of 10 MCr, then you can build a Jump-2 starship new for about
2.5 MCr.  Such a design uses primarily water tanks with a small fuel
processor to supplement much smaller LHyd tanks (the minimum needed to
initiate jump, whatever that is IYTU), and downgrades the sensors and
some other nonessential (but expensive) electronics.  With an
acceleration capability of 0.2G loaded, it won't ever land on a planet
but it can carry a shuttle that does.  It will also take about 10
hours to reach a 100D limit.  Of course it has no weapons -- even a
single laser costs a significant proportion of the total value.

If such a ship is in very poor but still serviceable condition, it
might be worth 250 kCr.  Valuable, but hardly an amount you could
retire to an island paradise in luxury for the rest of your life.
Especially if it is divided among 6 PCs :)


A probably unintentional side-effect of having very expensive jump
engines is that a starship owner can afford everything else to be
nearly top-of-the-line without greatly increasing the overall cost.
Slashing jump drive costs means that other cost-saving measures
actually become worthwhile, which (IMO) makes for much more
interesting design choices in the game.

Of course cutting jump drive costs by an order of magnitude means that
interstellar freight costs will be reduced, but not by an order of
magnitude.  Operating costs (crew, port fees, administration overhead,
maintenance) become the dominant factor rather than interest on the
mortgage.  I think I worked out a few years ago that the cost of jump
systems makes up about 60-70% of average freight costs (where are
these things when I need them), so the cost of freight would probably
halve.

There is yet another reason why I might recommend this approach.  If
low-acceleration unarmed merchant ships that have poor sensors and
can't land are common, it makes an excellent excuse for significantly
increased piracy levels around backwater worlds.  Not to mention the
fact that pirates can risk a much smaller monetary investment for
cargo that is still just as valuable as in the "expensive drives"
case.

;^>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:43:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 03:43:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>
References: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402033956.00a76170@pop.wizard.net>

Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...

Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug, 
your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead 
GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is 
despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode of 
eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.

--Laning, Canoneer of God


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:06:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:06:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <003d01c1d9e9$a2218e40$f6b18b90@computer>
References: <20020401200104.BCEA627A48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402034537.00a74010@pop.wizard.net>

Alan Bradley quotes me then asks:
> > From: laning
> > Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no
> > scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the
> > fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world
> > in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL 13
> > COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much less
> > likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.
>
>One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?

Obvious.  Getting into trouble.  The ISS isn't silly enough to send lone 
scouts to planets.  It sends contact teams, survey teams, whatever, but in 
teams.  Um, perhaps his ship is suffering from technical problems and it's 
a forced landing.  He's looking for local help resolving the problem.

And thereby hangs at least a couple of different adventure seeds.  The 
aging ex-scout in a starport bar whose partner went jump mad, did something 
to the nav controls and caused a misjump then committed suicide.  He was 
forced to land on a world whose exact location he was unsure of to seek 
help, the seemingly primitive local chirpers gathered around his ship, then 
he just _knew_ somehow that the ship was fixed.  He reboarded it, it worked 
fine.  Too fine!  It used fuel at one one-hundredth of the normal 
rate!  And he couldn't figure out how or why.  He also just _knew_ what nav 
settings to use to jump back to civilization and didn't think to question 
that, just did it.  When he got back to an ISS base, they told him the 
incident never happened and took the ship away "for repairs".  He was 
abruptly transferred to a training command as an instructor, where they 
spent about one month debriefing him on his experience in great detail.  He 
can't say exactly where that planet was, but he thinks he might remember 
the nav settings he used to jump away from it, and he knows where that jump 
ended.

Or.  Your small scout vessel has just had its fuel purifier go bad and 
you've landed on a TL 6 planet that you were only supposed to orbit.  You 
need to negotiate with the locals for refined fuel.  If you meet with their 
scientists you think you can arrange for them to refine what you need.  But 
you have to get past their military and politicians first.  Several of whom 
think the smart thing to do with an alien spaceship is keep it for 
themselves, but it's locked.  You're starting to think your only chance of 
staying alive for now is to convince them they cannot get inside the ship 
without your help.  Klaatu barada nictu.

Or.  Your tramp trader calls on an out of the way system in hopes of 
selling some chameleon cloth or other gewgaws to the natives, and maybe 
picking up some unique local handiworks that you can sell to archeologists 
when you return to civilization.  Hey, an independent business soph has to 
be creative to stay ahead of the big corporate competition.  So you do a 
few orbital passes while you make a survey.  Never land blindly, not if you 
want to live a long time in this business.  There's a ship down there in 
the jungle.  You get a close up photo image.  It's practically overgrown 
with jungle!  Not enough IR signature to be generating any heat 
internally.  No beacons.  Doesn't respond to any radio hails.  You send the 
ship's boat to investigate.  It's a scout ship, a model that hasn't been in 
common use for about fifteen Imperial years.  There are two skeletons on 
the bridge, visible through the viewport.  If you manage to get past the 
locked outer airlock door,  it will have to be by force.  That's when you 
find more skeletons in the interior corridor adjacent to the 
airlock.  Visible through the viewport again.  If you manage to force your 
way past the inner airlock door, that's when the ship begins to power up 
and various antihijack programs kick in.  You're starting to think you know 
how the skeletons next to the airlock got to be that way.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:20:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:20:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>
References: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>

Anthony Jackson quoted then wrote:
>Matthew Bond writes:
> > One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's
> > at doorlocks etc...
> >
> > How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> > Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior
> > is exposed to Vacuum?
>
>How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use?
>There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
>'security while everyone is away'.

I agree with Matt Bond about avoiding biometrics.

There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example.  Paying 
passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them through the 
passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger areas of the ship.  Each 
keycard is unique to each passenger, and so the same card gets them into 
their own private cabin.  Crew will have similar cards, that give them more 
freedom, and exactly how much and which greater freedoms would depend on 
the crew member's billet.  In a hijack situation, the captain or bridge 
watch officer uses a much higher level of security access to lock down all 
passenger hatchways, among various other security measures  This overrides 
the passenger keycards, of course, and limits crewmember keycards according 
to the specific alert situation.  The higher levels of access can't require 
a physical key because that might not be possible in some emergency 
scenarios.  Thus, it requires more elaborate and closely guarded usernames 
and passwords.

Voice print and/or retina scan _might_ be required for confirmation, but 
only as an additional measure.  Voiceprints are vulnerable to spoofing with 
recordings or even computer-synthesized voices.  Retina scans would only be 
desirable if they can be read through a vacc suit faceplate.  And they 
might be subject to spoofing, as well.  So even these two biometrics would 
probably be ignored by skilled designers of most ship security systems.

The biggest vulnerability is if someone gains knowledge of the captain's 
username and password.  That's why there's an owner's username and password 
that can override even the captain's access level.  In situations where law 
enforcement needs it, they can usually get it from the owner.  Sufficiently 
clever and ruthless hijackers might be able to do so, also.  That would be 
bad.  What provisions can we make for the captain and crew to neutralize 
hijackers who had done that?  Weapons and vacc suits and that's about 
it?  They should start out with physical possession of the bridge and 
engineering, so the hijackers would still have a fight on their hands 
before being able to fly the ship.  Maybe there should be lots of panic 
buttons around the ship.  Break glass and pull handle to start the 
"Emergency, I am being hijacked" beacon.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:29:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
References: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402042211.00a7a020@pop.wizard.net>

Matt Bond asks:
>Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
>kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
>Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Okay, I guess the security override system is composed of very tiny 
computerized access points, networked together.  They normally act as dumb 
workstations for talking to the ship's computer, but in case of network or 
computer problems they can act independent of the ship's computer to let 
stranded people with proper username and password enter the ship safely.

This creates a couple of vulnerabilities, but that is accepted in the name 
of user safety.  Now, would be hijackers only have to spoof the tiny dumb 
workstation computer at one of the access points if they want to board the 
ship.  The workstation knows all the usernames and passwords, although even 
a dumb workstation can be pretty tough to crack heavily encrypted data like 
that.  The hijackers could bring along some smart computer of their own to 
try to crack it.  They could eavesdrop on network traffic between the 
workstation and the ship's computer and crack the username and password 
that way.

Therefore, usernames and passwords are rotated frequently, and the network 
link between the workstation and ship's computer is fiber optic.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:40:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:40:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV58nLJm2ZBNCogiwH0001b30b@hotmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402043102.0280d0f0@pop.wizard.net>

Bill Scheets aka Tex says:
>Agreed.  Clearly
>Step 5. Getting Away
>needs to be included.

And Step 6.  Continuing To Get Away With It The Rest Of Their 
Lives.  Staying in Imperial space, for instance, and having to deal with 
not only transponder IDs, but all kinds of ship's papers and records, 
personal IDs, and all this checked against......databases.

I'm thinking that in Zhodani space, the thieves just have to fool the 
telepathic Thought Police who make routine boarding inspections of all 
docked ships.  And everyone entering the starport has to get past 
telepathic Thought Police at checkpoints.  It's going to be awfully hard to 
get away with this crime there.  But even with this security, the Zhodani 
will probably employ databases and various kinds of ID for ships, ships 
crews, major starship components, and cargos.  As well as the usual logs, 
flight plans, maintenance records, safety inspections, more thorough 
inspections during annual maintenance, yatta yatta yatta.

There's a reason that Vargr space is as disorganized as Traveller indicates 
it is at the governmental level.  Much easier for piracy and other such 
activities in or near Vargr space.  Very convenient for many 
campaigns.  And perhaps we've discovered a way to reconcile the piracy+ 
crowd with the piracy- crowd.  Piracy can be viable, but only in regions 
like the Vargr Extents and other regions of space where governmental 
authority only has a short reach.  Which really just rephrases what some of 
us have been saying for a long time.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:57:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:57:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Stealing Starships - More
In-Reply-To: <DAV43jxq6pgtq33Z4WN00012b23@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402044404.0280ec90@pop.wizard.net>

>And since we've come to this juncture - what exactly does an anti-hijack 
>program do?  Does it scan boarding passengers for weapons?  Monitor 
>patterns of passenger movement for suspicious activity?  Compare facial 
>features against a known database of offenders?
>
>Is it completely passive? ("Sorry to interrupt Captain but five passengers 
>are approaching the bridge with weapons and shaped charges")
>
>Or do automated systems take an active role in defending the ship in the 
>event of a hijack? (ZAP "Correction Captain.  Make that four passengers." 
>ZAP "Sorry.  Three.")  Perhaps if the vessel is taken and the Captain 
>doesn't enter an override command, the A-H program scrams the power 
>plant.  Or maybe the ship is experimental, powerful, or otherwise very 
>_interesting_ in which case the A-H program decides to scuttle in 30 minutes...

Assuming you've paid for a real, live Antihijack program, then the answer 
is it will do any and all combinations of the above, plus a lot of other 
things besides.  You just go to any console that lets you access the user 
interface for your Antihijack program and select any of a number of popular 
default configurations.  Then start customizing it as you desire.  Assuming 
your username and password is authorized.  A significant part of 
configuring its settings is to determine exactly what access and overrides 
each username is granted.  Probably the vendor who sold it to you had an 
installation consultant visit and spend an hour or three until you had at 
least one crew member comfortable with it.  Its capabilities have evolved 
for literally centuries and there are few situations that have not been 
thought of.  The user interface has evolved for a similar period of time 
and is surprisingly intuitive and easy to use.

There would be various hardware extras that you may or may not want to 
install.  You want a flamethrower pointed down the airlock corridor and 
controllable via the Antihijack program?  No problem, we can have it 
delivered and installed in one to three days.  That'll run you extra for 
the hardware, plus an additional installation fee for configuring it 
properly with the software.  Only available where law level permits.  You 
are responsible for showing our salesman all required government permits 
before the sale can be final.  You should check with your liability insurer 
before getting any fixed interior weaponry as it may void your policy or 
require a new rider.  You should also be warned that such riders tend to be 
extremely expensive.  Manufacturer and vendor are in no way liable for 
injuries, death, or property damaged which might involve said flamerthrower.

When a really cheap starship costs tens of millions and most starship types 
cost hundreds of millions, there will be pretty elaborate and effective 
layers of security to prevent loss.  And software applications will have 
been evolved and debugged for hundreds of years, which is a way of thinking 
that most of us on the TML need to consciously force ourselves into because 
we're used to all software being relatively new, somewhat unstable, usually 
a bastard of a user interface, never the same two years in a row, etc.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 10:02:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 05:02:30 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer>
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402045857.02801d60@pop.wizard.net>

Alan Bradley, who has been there and has the tee shirt to prove it, says:
>"Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got a
>harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
>schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a fusion
>reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own army.
>What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania thinks he
>has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us independent
>enclaves to make sure he doesn't."

Perfect, Chairman Laning and his Lanite citizens should find King Bradley 
to be an excellent neighbor and ally.  You're invited to drop over anytime 
for tropical drinks on the veranda.  The dancing girls put on a fine show 
around the bonfire after midnight, it's always a big hit with guests.  Just 
be sure to let us know before heading over, so we can make sure the air 
defense system doesn't do anything rash to your air rafts.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 10:29:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 05:29:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices [was Re: Living...on an
 Airplane]
In-Reply-To: <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>

Tim Little responded to my quest for much cheaper starships with very 
interesting thoughts.  I've had mostly the same ideas, but yours are better 
organized and developed, Tim.  Thanks much.  :->

The two big differences for me would be reducing the overall cost by at 
least two or even three orders of magnitude, and trying to do it so that 
there's still a huge price jump going from nonstarship to starship.

In other words, reduce hull, computer, maneuver, and power plant costs by 
probably two orders of magnitude but jump drives by only one.  Which still 
doesn't work out quite as tidily as I'd like.

I would like it if you could commission say a really nice yacht for 3 
megacredits or less.  Which is still a huge sum of money.  Weaponry and 
shield costs would remain unmodified.  Or a 200-ton free trader for maybe 
just under 1 megacredit, built new.  I don't want to open the rule books 
right now to run the numbers because I'm already way overdue to hit the 
rack and sleep.

One of the problems with the above approach is anyone with good credit and 
a good business plan could build jump-5 or jump-6 ships and they would be 
too common.  Which got me to wondering if I couldn't make the cost for jump 
drives go up proportional to the square of the jump number.  Which in turn 
got to me wondering if it would be a good idea to have the same type of 
relationship for power plants and maneuver drives.  Probably yes to jump 
drives and no to the others.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 10:30:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:30:26 +1200
Subject: [TML] Re: Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331112145.025208a0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020331073926.009f9080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CAA3102.30051.BC0A20@localhost>

On 31 Mar 2002, at 11:29, laning wrote:

> This has led me to wonder if Orthodox Jews ever make it off the planet 
> Earth in the canonical Traveller universe.  Perhaps in low 
> berths?  Probably not.  Would the opportunity to actually meet these 
> foreign people called Orthodox Jews be a tourist attraction when planning 
> to travel to Terra?

To be honest, I don't think Jews (of any ilk) would be all that 
common in the Traveller Universe. There are under 15 million Jews 
worldwide right now (13.6 IIRC) and the faith doesn't encourage 
conversion. I'd say 100 million tops for 1100 Imperial (probably far 
less), mostly clustered on and around Terra. The vast majority of 
Imperial citizens have probably never heard of them. However, I 
would say that they will still be around.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 11:28:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:28:20 +1200
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAA3E94.13432.F10D0B@localhost>

On 1 Apr 2002, at 17:25, John T. Kwon wrote:

> You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles, 
> but they don't have an air force anymore.

We don't actually need an airforce, the 1,800 km moat serves well 
enough unless you're going to bring along an aircraft carrier. And if 
you can bring along an aircraft carrier, we couldn't have stopped 
you anyway.

Vague ObTrav: Think of all the thousands of low to mid population 
worlds. They have no hope of stopping a half serious assault, so 
how are their defence forces structured? A small professional force 
sufficent to deal with casual raiders and to act as a cadre for a 
guerilla resistance until someone comes to their rescue. One to 
three battalions of mobile ground troops and two or three heavy 
fighters should be sufficent.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 11:38:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:38:14 +1200
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185058.00a65e80@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEIGHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

laning wrote :
> JT Kwon wrote:
> >Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
> >
> >You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles,
> >but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up
> >with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right
> >positions in government for the die hards, it might work.
>
> The worst part is it's probably the New Zealanders on
> the list who are laughing the hardest at that.  :->

I thought we wuz included in the "right positions in government
for the die hards" bit ?

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 11:38:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:38:13 +1200
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEIGHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

John Kwon writes
>(Megan Robertson)  says
> >Subject: Re: [TML] room clearing
> >
> >The British Army method is: -
> >
<snip>
> Yes, that's very similar to what was SOP just prior to the
> last technique.  What you describe above is what is known as
> Battle Drill #6.

One assumes all the room clearing techniques being discussed are
for bunkers or concrete buildings of better than average
construction against a well-motivated enemy.

To clear a modern apartment, office or hotel room, stand in the
hallway outside, and spray the room(s) with automatic fire,
remembering to cover the entire wall and especially remembering
to fire at ground level a few times.

Then push the wall over.

Just remember that the wall isn't going to give _you_ any cover
when you start firing either.
<grin>

Oh, and remember to fire in to the air outside the building a few
times first. Based on my observations of most troops and the
majority of civilians, that'll mean they'll be standing in the
windows, looking for where the shots came from.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:02:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:02:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIADJAA.tml@downport.com>

I'm doing some research for a TAS supplement and could use some help with
references. The supplement will be CT, but I'd like to read up on any
reference, in any version, that mentions the TAS.

If you'd like to reply in the thread on the TAS-Net web boards, here is the
thread URL: http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=38. I'll get them all
into the thread, eventually.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
"In conclusion, remember that Traveller
  is a game, and that it goes differently
    for everyone who plays. Bon voyage!"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:14:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:14:25 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <20020402064409.B8250279FA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c1da40$0a82f040$2c5d8690@computer>

> From: JR Holmes 
> This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
> There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
> (or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
> sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
> example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.
> 
> =46rom a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become part
> of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
> destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
> becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.

You evil naughty man...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:12:36 +1000
Subject: [TML] RE: Room Clearing
Message-ID: <001e01c1da40$09e43f40$2c5d8690@computer>

> From: "David & Kristin Larson"
> Flash-bangs are in relatively common use (at least I've had no problem
> getting them from the ASP).

Just last week one of the veterans at work was showing us the scars he got
from a flash-bang that went off too close to him.

He and some other army guys were training with a bunch of cops  (Tactical
Response Group - SWAT types), when one of the cops rolled a flash-bang the
wrong way.  Result:  small but interesting shrapnel wounds.  My friend was
actually behind the guy that took the brunt of the bang, but the grenade had
rolled between his feet, and bounced off a wall before going off.

All of this was apparently rather embarrassing to the people responsible for
organising the exercise.  Fortunately nobody was seriously injured, so their
butts weren't kicked too hard.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:15:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:15:22 GMT
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net> <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3ca99b9a.4755858@post.demon.co.uk>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:

>> >I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air
>force.
>>
(snip)
>
>Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns =
are
>very handy for burglars...

I want an L5 space station, then I can not only declare independence,
but address communications to world leaders as "foolish
Earth-beings!".

And if anybody objects, well, I'm at the top of the gravity well and
there are lots of rocks in space...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 13:12:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:12:18 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net> <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <3ca99b9a.4755858@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <002301c1da48$17342b80$d99593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
>Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are
>very handy for burglars...

I want an L5 space station, then I can not only declare independence,
but address communications to world leaders as "foolish
Earth-beings!".

And if anybody objects, well, I'm at the top of the gravity well and
there are lots of rocks in space...

Excellent! Though sitting out on the Veranda on an evening is a bit
chilly....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:07:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 06:07:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020402140743.71732.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Matthew Bond <mattgbond@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA
> while in space to do some
> kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my
> Airlocks Starport Locking
> Mechanism. How do I get back in?

I don't think it is even that necessary to contrive
the possibility.  I don't think that every port of
call on a vaccuum world is going to pressurize the
landing area.  They may have special vehicles to get
you from your ship to the StarPort, but if they don't,
its into the vacc suit.  Then how do you get back into
your ship?


Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:16:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:16:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <03b401c1da51$0d6c92f0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

I've often through of a bass seeking missle for just such an occasion

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 6:54 PM
Subject: RE: [TML] handy device


> Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
> stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
> making MY windows rattle.
>
> Jesse
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:40 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] handy device
>
>
> They already have something today that will zoom under your
> car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
> even restart).
>
> There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
> a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
> will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
> Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
> go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).
>
> It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
> have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
> left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.
>
> Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:22:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:22:58 EST
Subject: [TML] Malorn Union and Winston Democracy
Message-ID: <a2.235606a8.29db18c2@aol.com>

Can anyone tell me anything about these two pocket states beyond
their names and allegiance codes?

I'm reworking Aldebaran sector for an upcoming GURPS Traveller book.
I need to know how seriously I need to consider leaving these two states
in existence :-). Clearly they aren't canonical in the strict sense of the
word, but if any fans are fond of them I can't be too cavalier about
erasing them. . .

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:40:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 00:40:39 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9C2E7.20705@gmx.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>"MJ Dougherty" says
>
>>I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my 
>>own air force.
>>
>
>Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
>
>You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles, 
>but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up 
>with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right 
>positions in government for the die hards, it might work.
>
Don't laugh... this may have already happened.
-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:34:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:34:38 +0800
Subject: [TML] F17 Starfire class light fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEIFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Just when you thought it was safe, another fighter.

F17 STARFIRE CLASS LIGHT FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION



The F17 Starfire class light fighter was designed at the same time as the
F16 Scimitar class light fighter, with which it shares many components. Not
as fast as the Scimitar, having a maneuver drive capable of 4G compared to
the Scimitars 5G, the Starfire does carry a somewhat heavier armament in the
form of two 50-Mj Laser Lances compared to the Scimitars single.

General Data Displacement: 20 tons  Hull Armour: 50
Length: 16 meters  Volume: 280 cubic meters
Price: MCr25.172723  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 471.972/434.9299 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 151Mw Fusion Power Plant (75.5Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (0.2232Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 4 (23.5Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 41.6 , 2.9375 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 12

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 60,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 120,000km
Active EMS (4 hexes; 16.5Mw), 3xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 2xWorkstations

Armament Offensive: 2xTL13 50Mj Laser Lances (Loc: 2/3; Arcs 1; Loc: 18/19;
Arcs: 5; 13.889Mw each; No Crew), 4x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 4 7-ton
missiles or recce drones

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
50Mj Laser Lance  4:1/5-17  8:1/3-9  16:1-4  32:1-2
-2 Difficulty Levels

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0157 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.7828 Mw)
Crew: 2 (1xManuever/Electronics/Gunner, 1xGunner)
Crew Accommodations: 2xWorkstations
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 0.4 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 56 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.182 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  		Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  	Systems
1  			Ant  			Elec  			LS-2H,
2-3  			1-18:Ant  		1-11:Lance,12-20:Elec  	PP-2H,
4-5  			1-19:Ant  		1-7:Elec,8-20:Hold  	ELS-1H,
6-7  			1-19:Ant  		1:Qtrs,2-20:Hold  	Lance-1H,
8-9,11-13   				Hold  			MD-(2h),
10  			1-2:Hatch  		Qtrs  			All others-(1h),
14-15  		1-10:Missile  	1-10:Grapple,11-14:Eng,15-20:Hold
16-17   					Eng
18-19   					1-11:Lance,12-20:Eng
20   						Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:34:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:34:35 +0800
Subject: [TML] F16 Scimitar class light fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEIFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

F16 SCIMITAR CLASS LIGHT FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION



The Scimitar class light fighter was in widespread service with Solomani
forces, especially second line units, at the start of the Second Solomani
Rim War. As the war progressed Scimitars were gradually pushed into first
line units because of losses of more advanced types.

Somewhat larger than the F14 Scorpion they could not use the launch tubes on
Consort class escort carriers, they were faster than the Scorpions, boasting
a 5G capability.

General Data Displacement: 20 tons  Hull Armour: 60
Length: 16 meters  Volume: 280 cubic meters
Price: MCr25.64925  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 487.4876/456.9102 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 166Mw Fusion Power Plant (83Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (1.1585Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 5 (24.4Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 43 , 3.05 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 11

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 60,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 120,000km
Active EMS (4 hexes; 16.5Mw), 3xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 2xWorkstations

Armament Offensive: 1xTL13 50Mj Laser Lance (Loc: 2/3; Arcs 1; 13.889Mw; No
Crew), 3x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 3 7-ton missiles or recce drones

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
50Mj Laser Lance  4:1/5-17  8:1/3-9  16:1-4  32:1-2
-2 Difficulty Levels

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0148 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.7374 Mw)
Crew: 2 (1xManuever/Electronics, 1xGunner)
Crew Accommodations: 2xWorkstations
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 0.3 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 56 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.342 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  		Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  	Systems
1  			Ant  			Elec  			LS-2H,
2-3  			1-18:Ant  		1-11:Lance,12-20:Elec  	PP-2H,
4-5  			1-19:Ant  		1-7:Elec,8-20:Hold  	ELS-1H,
6-7  			1-19:Ant  		1-2:Qtrs,3-20:Hold  	Lance-1H,
8-9,12-13   				Hold  			MD-(2h),
10  			1-2:Hatch  		Qtrs  			All others-(1h)
11,14-15  		1-5:Missile  	1-5:Grapple,6-20:Hold
16-19   					1-13:Grapple,14-20:Hold
16-19   					1-19:Eng,20:Hold
20   						Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:03:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 08:03:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402033956.00a76170@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>
 <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402080234.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>

At 03:43 AM 4/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
>>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...
>
>Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug, 
>your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead 
>GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is 
>despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode 
>of eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.
>
>--Laning, Canoneer of God

I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.

(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...

100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.


--

Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:05:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:05:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

LOL!!!  That's the other one that my roomies and I thought of as well!  That, and "Too-stupid-to-live" ortillery ;D

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Pratt [mailto:cdpratt@gatecom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 6:17 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] handy device


I've often through of a bass seeking missle for just such an occasion

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:09:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:09:42 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>
 <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020402080234.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9D7C6.8D7E0D48@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 03:43 AM 4/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
> >>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...
> >
> >Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug,
> >your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead
> >GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is
> >despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode
> >of eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.
> >
> >--Laning, Canoneer of God
> 
> I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
> 
> (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> 
> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

All right, I'll take that challenge...

<<paraphrase spoiler space>>












<<paraphrase spoiler space ends>>

Galileo's "Yet it still moves."

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:23:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:23:29 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [TML] [ANNOUNCEMENT] Frontiers PBeM Campaign
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204021821020.168484-100000@svati>

Hi all,

  I'm setting up a PBeM in the Spinward Marches/Trojan Reaches
sectors and are looking for some interested players. More
info can be found by going to the PBeM section on
www.travellercentral.com

Cheers
Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:43:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:43:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] [ANNOUNCEMENT] Frontiers PBeM Campaign
Message-ID: <OF198476A5.770671F6-ON85256B8F.005B7FB4@pheaa.org>








<snip>
  I'm setting up a PBeM in the Spinward Marches/Trojan Reaches
sectors and are looking for some interested players.
</snip>

I would like to play. i cant check traveller central from work so could you
let me know what version of traveller you will be using? will the gm be
making Pre-generated chars? if not can we request a pre generated char?

thanks

Bill






From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:04:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:04:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] room clearing
References: <200203312207.DBP01462@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401224917.01b08448@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3CA9E49E.50806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:

> Flash bangs are also quite dangerous in confined spaces.  The big 
> difference between that and fragmentation grenade is lack of 
> fragmentation in the Flashbang.  You still have about the same amount of 
> explosive material.

Yep, and they're powerful, too. There was a police raid on a house a 
good 90-100 yards away from our house. They tossed a fb in the front 
door of the place. The boom rattled the windows in OUR house, and was 
loud enough, I started looking for which next-door neighbor's furnace 
exploded.

Moreover, the windows were rattled hard on the side of our house *away* 
from the raid, which had the bulk of three houses between us and the 
explosion.

I can't imagine what it was like *inside* that room.
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:04:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:04:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
Message-ID: <200204021704.DEX06493@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>
>(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
>
>100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
>
galileo
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:11:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:11:27 +0200
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIADJAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIADJAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020402191127.6b66c4f3.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Swordy wrote:
> I'm doing some research for a TAS supplement and could use some help
with
> references. The supplement will be CT, but I'd like to read up on any
> reference, in any version, that mentions the TAS.
> 
> If you'd like to reply in the thread on the TAS-Net web boards, here is
the
> thread URL: http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=38. I'll get them
all
> into the thread, eventually.

Wouldn't this make for an excellent GT supplement as well? That way, it
might even see print...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:14:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16sHfY-0003IO-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017767692.2225.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
>
> 1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this 
> shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be 
> overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP? 

The shielding necessary to protect a gauss rifle from its own operation will
shield from levels of EMP that aren't lethal to humans at short range.
> 
> 2) While military equipment wil be shielded, many worlds would 
> likely strongly prefer if civilian weapons were not, since having a 
> way to stop everyone's guns from working would be a godsend for 
> cops (who would presumably also have shielded weapons).  

And, for various reasons, unshielded weapons will be very unpopular, since EMP
devices are nowhere difficult enough to build for only the cops to have them. 
Any world with a law level high enough to want all weapons to be unshielded
probably also has a law level high enough not to permit civilian ownership of
gauss or energy weapons, and a CPR gun with non-electronic sights is immune to
EMP at levels that won't kill humans. 
> 
> 3) Even if you don't get the weapons, cutting off someone's comm 
> will at least stop them from calling for backup.

True, though lasercomms and burst transmitters can be shielded fairly easily. 
A conventional radio would be hard to shield.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:17:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:17:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017767869.7543.ajackson@ping>

Matthew Bond writes:

> Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
> kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
> Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Ok, we're talking once in a hundred year scale accidents here, so we don't
worry about it.  However, most likely the scout left the door open, making the
issue moot.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:26:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:26 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <memo.187211@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3CA9E49E.50806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Greetings dear hearts.

I've been on the receiving end of a flash-bang, fortunately while standing 
outside in the dark, and that's quite enough, thank you!

I couldn't see a thing for quite some time.

The odd thing was, I issued a challenge in what to me was just a random 
direction, and managed to draw a bead on the fellow who chucked it. I 
never did let on to him that I hadn't somehow spotted him... just adds to 
the legend :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:28:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:28:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
Message-ID: <20020402.093118.-186857.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


> Douglas Berry says
> >
> >(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> >
> >100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
> >
>  

"We look for things to make us go" ??? ST:TNG

Turokan

.--.   ...       .----   .----   -....   ---...   ----.       ..      
.--   ..   .-..   .-..       .--   .-   .-..   -.-       -...   .   ..-. 
 ---   .-.   .       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..       ..  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   .-   -.   -..       ---   ..-.       -
  ....   .       .-..   ..   ...-   ..   -.   --.   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:40:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:40:40 +0200
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
References: <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020402194040.7979a578.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Of course all the Major races evolved on Earthlike worlds... Its had to
> develop a spacefaring civilisation then there is a kilometres thick ice
> sheet between you and the stars (not that you'd even know they
existed...)

That is a point I hadn't thought of...

*sound of head hitting table repeatedly*

Combined with Doug's idea of psionic lifeforms, this might be really
interesting.

Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world under
the ice.

Off course, the Zhodani might be aware of such a race (since they have
both better defense against psionics and use robots heavily)...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:40:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Classic Traveller)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:40:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <20020402191127.6b66c4f3.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>

When it is completed I will publish it in PDF. That way it will definitely
see print "see print", if it is worth the paper to print it on ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Jens Rydholm

Swordy wrote:
> I'm doing some research for a TAS supplement and could use some help with
> references. The supplement will be CT, but I'd like to read up on any
> reference, in any version, that mentions the TAS.
>
> If you'd like to reply in the thread on the TAS-Net web boards, here is
the
> thread URL: http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=38. I'll get them
all
> into the thread, eventually.

Wouldn't this make for an excellent GT supplement as well? That way, it
might even see print...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:43:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:43:36 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <18.1cd71567.29db47c8@aol.com>

--part1_18.1cd71567.29db47c8_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 02/04/02 02:10:20 GMT Daylight Time, 
mattgbond@ntlworld.com writes:


> One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at
> doorlocks etc...
> 
> How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior 
> is
> exposed to Vacuum?
> 
> Not many...
> 
> Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by
> being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a 
> recording
> being played over radio)
> 
> I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices
> relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad 
> ID
> number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the
> card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you
> have access to your account.
> 
> After all, you want security to stop casual access to secure areas, but not
> so secure that it inhibits routine or emergency access.
> 
> Matt
> 

Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs 
starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're 
borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.

The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not to 
let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can probably 
see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information than 
you wish to give out.

If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems for 
opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch 
then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to a 
specialist lock-smith.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_18.1cd71567.29db47c8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 02:10:20 GMT Daylight Time, mattgbond@ntlworld.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at<BR>
doorlocks etc...<BR>
<BR>
How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit<BR>
Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior is<BR>
exposed to Vacuum?<BR>
<BR>
Not many...<BR>
<BR>
Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by<BR>
being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a recording<BR>
being played over radio)<BR>
<BR>
I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices<BR>
relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad ID<BR>
number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the<BR>
card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you<BR>
have access to your account.<BR>
<BR>
After all, you want security to stop casual access to secure areas, but not<BR>
so secure that it inhibits routine or emergency access.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.<BR>
<BR>
The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not to let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can probably see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information than you wish to give out.<BR>
<BR>
If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems for opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to a specialist lock-smith.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_18.1cd71567.29db47c8_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:46:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:46:30 EST
Subject: [TML] Questions, questions
Message-ID: <102.1302b0d5.29db4876@aol.com>

1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to 
remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible

2) Can Hivers hold their breath?

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:51:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:51:40 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
> First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might
be.
> Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in
the
> game universe are - IMO - dubious.

My main aim isn't to recreate the original Traveller sequence. If I'd
wanted that, I'd just use it instead of First In  ;-)

However, I want roughly the same spread of intelligent races as in typical
SF, ie the most common environment for sentinent life to evolve in is on
Earthlike worlds.

I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might look
under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary after a
while.

While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
function using radically different biochemistries?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:11:03 -0800
Subject: [TML] Traveller PBeMs
Message-ID: <B8CF3437.341C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Just checking back with everyone on the list.

If you are running a Traveller PBeM and want to advertise it, please drop me
a not.  I'm trying to get a lists of all Traveller PBeM posted to
TravellerCentral.

Thanks
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:27:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:27:36 +0100
Subject: [TML] Classic Traveller GM Screen
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020322222704.00b6d1b0@192.168.0.1>
 <3CA6EBDE.4F036886@virgin.net> <200203310632250552.5A478B7C@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CA9F818.C7735816@virgin.net>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 3/31/2002 at 10:58 AM Si wrote:
>
> >Guys ('n' gals),
> >
> >I am currently using the Judges Guild CT Referee's screen (the 4 page,
> >double-sided dark green one with the chunky writing - if there is more than
> >one).  As it is now getting on quite a bit (I am sure it must be well over 20
> >years old now, an age that most of us can only vaguely remember) and stuck
> >together with sellotape that is older than all 3 of my kids put together, i
> >would really like to print off a good version and get it laminated so i can
> >enjoy it for another 20+ years.  The problem is, i can't manage to scan a
> >decent copy and i don't want to photocopy it as i would ideally like an
> >electronic version I can manipulate a bit beforehand.
> >
> >does anyone on the TML have a decent electronic copy of this screen that they
> >could send me, or know how i can get a decent scan of it?
>
> Wait just a bit and you can have a brand new one!
>
> We (QLI) have a CT screen ready to go as soon as we print T20 (yeah yeah I know about the delays *grin*). The new screen is based in part on the original JG screen (we bought out the rights to the old JG Traveller material awhile back).
>
> Hunter

There is only so long i can wait dude

;-)

Seriously though, I intend to get the T20 stuff anyway, but i also want the original CT screen so i can run nostalgia games.

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:29:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:29:35 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: Accents and Bonuses
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020331073926.009f9080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9F88F.5EF04DC9@virgin.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 01:06 AM 3/31/02 -0800, you wrote:
> > >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> >
> > >How do you use the elevators?  You can't press the buttons on
> > >the Sabbath, nor can you ask someone to press your floor.
> >
> >The stairs you should take.  God forbid your heart should take that day off,
> >too.
>
> A solution if you have a room on the second or third floors..
>
> ObTrav: A ship crewed by Orthodox Jews sets up so they will spend Passover
> in jump.  They misjump, and come out of jump way early, on a course to hit
> something large and fatal.  Your characters are passengers on said
> ship..  Much fun happens.
>
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

Doubt it, you can break nearly every single law in order to save life (apart from
the total ban on cannibalism, murder and incest - i think)

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:47:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:47:55 -0700
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
>>This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
>>First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might
> 
> be.
> 
>>Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in
> 
> the
> 
>>game universe are - IMO - dubious.
> 
> 
> My main aim isn't to recreate the original Traveller sequence. If I'd
> wanted that, I'd just use it instead of First In  ;-)
> 
> However, I want roughly the same spread of intelligent races as in typical
> SF, ie the most common environment for sentinent life to evolve in is on
> Earthlike worlds.
> 
> I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might look
> under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary after a
> while.
> 
> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
> function using radically different biochemistries?

Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
reprinted in various places.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:52:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:52:24 -0700
Subject: [TML] Questions, questions
References: <102.1302b0d5.29db4876@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9FDE8.10303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to 
> remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible

Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's 
ridiculous as well. Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens, 
H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.

A more logical explanation would be that Gramps took H. hablis, geneered 
the species into H. sap, and re-seeded Terra, as well as Zhodane and 
Vland (and all the other planets) with the new species.

Would explain some of the more puzzling aspects of our evolution...

> 2) Can Hivers hold their breath?

Hold one under water and see...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:57:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 10:57:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <18.1cd71567.29db47c8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008701c1da78$3e3cfec0$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Tuesday, April 02, 2002 9:43 AM
CHam628781@aol.com said,

> Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs
> starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're
> borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.
>
> The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not
to
> let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can
probably
> see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information
than
> you wish to give out.

Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power
biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.  If the
security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.

> If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems
for
> opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch
> then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to
a
> specialist lock-smith.

If there is a mechanical system for opening the door than it comes down to
cutting the power to the doors locking mechanism so that you can operate the
manual.  This usually wouldn't be too difficult.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"I do not fear computers.  I fear the lack of them." -Isaac Asimov


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 19:13:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:13:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> from "laning" at Apr 02, 2002 05:29:18 AM
Message-ID: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>

Laning writes:
> One of the problems with the above approach is anyone with good credit and 
> a good business plan could build jump-5 or jump-6 ships and they would be 
> too common.  Which got me to wondering if I couldn't make the cost for jump 
> drives go up proportional to the square of the jump number.  Which in turn 
> got to me wondering if it would be a good idea to have the same type of 
> relationship for power plants and maneuver drives.  Probably yes to jump 
> drives and no to the others.

I've always wondered why ships cost so much, particularly given
the degree of automation & robot labor which ought to be available.
And the idea for starting the cost low and then going up exponentially
based on the range of jump seems like a good one, but it needs to be
justified somehow. It seems to me that in a setting where energy costs
plummet to near zero (due to access to fusion), and where labor costs
plummet to near zero (due to massive use of robotics), you end up with
an economic framework (at least at the higher tech levels) where the
only stuff that really costs a great deal of money are status items
(priced high due to cost of advertising), new technologies (due to
cost of unamortized designer hours), and rare materials (priced high
due to rarity). In terms of starships, particularly for designs which
have been around for centuries, the only one of these factors that
holds up is the rare materials factor. Hence, lanthanum comes to mind.

So making the most expensive item of a starship the jump grid makes a
certain amount of economic sense, and making the price increase
exponentally due to the necessary "density" of the grid also makes
sense. Nonetheless, it seems like a bit of an extreme proposition to
say that lanthanum costs as much as it must in order for starships to
work out as expensive as they are in Traveller. All, IMHO. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 19:21:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:21:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017775268.4978.ajackson@ping>

jimv writes:
> 
> I've always wondered why ships cost so much, particularly given
> the degree of automation & robot labor which ought to be available.

Well, you do realize that traveller starships are huge.

Basically, ships have to be expensive or you run into problems with the
economics of the setting.  If you want cheaper ships, I'd reduce the minimum
size of jump-capable ships below 100 dtons.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 19:57:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam Draper)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:57:34 -0700
Subject: [TML] Making FFS2 more like High Guard
In-Reply-To: <20020402170616.65F2C279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGAEAICFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>

I written some rules in an attempt to make FFS2 a little simpler to use.
The system covers TL 11-15, and displacements of between 10 and 1,000.
Larger ships would not be difficult to add, except that I did not want to
include all of the appropriately enormous sensors and weapons.  Mass and
surface area are not used for the most part, although they could be added
easily in optional rules.  If anyone would like to take a look, my webpage
can be found at www.lansrc.com/~draper/nsds.  I would appreciate any
suggestions or comments you might have.

Thanks,

Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:09:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:09:16 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <12d.f1855a6.29da07cd@aol.com>
References: <12d.f1855a6.29da07cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020402200916.0b4f8c3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> This is unlikely since the complexity of the ecosystem is likely to be 
> related to the available food sources at the bottom of the food chain.
These 
> will be severely limited on an Ice ball, even an old one. Hence the easy
way 
> round the problem is to cap the positive modifiers available for
non-ocean 
> worlds. I'd suggest +6 is a suitable number, altough I'm not an expert
on 
> First In so other numbres might be more suitable. 

A +6 modifier makes it impossible for complex animals to evolve under the
ice, although simple animals are still possible. Simpler lifeforms remain
rather common (37% of all icy rockballs with subsurface oceans get some
form of life).

I like this. I'll keep it for MTU.

After playing around with some modifiers for the other world types, I
finally found numbers I feel good about:

Additions to Step 15
====================
Age bonus for icy rockballs limited to +6
-5 for nitrogen worlds
-3 for ammonia worlds

This gives the following results:

Spread of complex life over all worlds in the TU
================================================
Subgiant :  1.4%
Nitrogen : 22.2%
Ammonia  : 18.7%
Desert   : 19.6%
Icy sub. :  0.0%
Earthlike: 38.1%

Chance of complex life on a world of a given type
=================================================
Subgiant :  6.3%
Nitrogen :  8.4%
Ammonia  :  7.7%
Desert   :  6.8%
Icy sub. :  0.0%
Earthlike: 77.2%

(the above data was collected from a large dataset)

I'll probably keep these numbers. In any case, the modifiers are included
in my program now, which means that the script on my webpage behaves
accordingly.

If there is enough interest, I could easily put up a script for the
unmodified rules as well.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:15:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:15:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] test (sorry)
In-Reply-To: <20020402200916.0b4f8c3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIKDJAA.tml@downport.com>

testing FROM



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:18:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:18:46 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402151321.02829d40@pop.wizard.net>

>JimV says:
<<<snip>>>
>So making the most expensive item of a starship the jump grid makes a
>certain amount of economic sense, and making the price increase
>exponentally due to the necessary "density" of the grid also makes
>sense. Nonetheless, it seems like a bit of an extreme proposition to
>say that lanthanum costs as much as it must in order for starships to
>work out as expensive as they are in Traveller. All, IMHO. -Jim

I agree.  Plus, I think jump grids are supposed to canonically always have 
the same density regardless of jump number.  I suppose we could charge a 
lot more for zuchai crystals.  A particular piece of canon I've always been 
too embarrassed to throw at my players.  I keep trying to promote Traveller 
as a relatively 'hard SF' game.  Whether it is hard, semirigid, or soft, 
zuchai crystals seem to drop it down to the level of camp, soft SF occupied 
by original Star Trek.

And I still have the problem of making hulls, manuever drives, power 
plants, and computers priced exponentially higher as their capability go 
up.  (Well, exponent of capability would be one factor in the equation.  It 
wouldn't be a raw relationship because that would make jump-6 or 
maneuever-6 just too expensive.)

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:24:03 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [TML] [ANNOUNCEMENT] Frontiers PBeM Campaign
In-Reply-To: <OF198476A5.770671F6-ON85256B8F.005B7FB4@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204022222490.168484-100000@svati>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, William Lane wrote:

><snip>
>  I'm setting up a PBeM in the Spinward Marches/Trojan Reaches
>sectors and are looking for some interested players.
></snip>
>
>I would like to play. i cant check traveller central from work so could you
>let me know what version of traveller you will be using? will the gm be
>making Pre-generated chars? if not can we request a pre generated char?
>

The game will be using GURPS with som modifications. There are some
pre-generated characters available, and I can also generated characters
according to your wishes. Just ask :-)

Cheers
Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:28:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:28:40 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <001f01c1d9c8$14f2af20$629193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <052601c1da84$f9e24b60$1f9e15ac@warrior>

surely you've heard of Sealand then :)

http://www.sealandgov.com/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)


>
> >
> > My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a
> > twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.
> >
> >
>
> I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air
force.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:26:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:26:17 +0000
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
Message-ID: <F150I5MQ8S8M30TqD1C000114f8@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
Cavalry.
     Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?
     Thanks in advance.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S. BTW, I'm recently back from a long business trip to Venezuela.  For 
those of you keeping score at home, you can now add Venezuela to the 
"Circling The Bowl" column of your nation/state scoresheets.  Indonesia and 
Zimbabwe may have had a head start, but Venezuela is coming up on the rail 
very quickly!


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:30:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:30:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017775268.4978.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402152005.027e07c0@pop.wizard.net>

Anthony Jackson writes:
>Well, you do realize that traveller starships are huge.
>
>Basically, ships have to be expensive or you run into problems with the
>economics of the setting.  If you want cheaper ships, I'd reduce the minimum
>size of jump-capable ships below 100 dtons.

I thought of that, but have three problems there.

First, it's highly unlikely tiny starships will be able to support 
themselves.  They'll be _somewhat_ cheaper to construct, but still probably 
greater than 10 megacredits, but maintenance and operations will eat the 
owner alive.

The price reduction isn't enough for purposes of MTU.

I'd like to see large starships be more practicable for governments, 
corporations, and individuals to own.  Not just make it possible for people 
of more limited means to acquire the starship equivalent of a Volkswagen 
bug or a Hyundai.

It seems to me cost of starship _should_ be driven not primarily by size of 
hull but the aggregation of components in it.  It should be possible to 
construct the equivalent of a tramp coastal freighter significantly less 
than one megacredit.  It will have bare bones navigation and maneuever 
ability, just enough to enable it to get various operating permits and just 
enough to qualify for insurance at fairly cheap rates.  If the owner(s) 
prosper, then they can upgrade and rebuild key components.  Bridge and 
electronics, drives and power plant.  But that is what starts to cost.  And 
weapon prices should remain unchanged from canon, by and large.

All of this is just _a_ Traveller universe I'd like to run.  I don't 
seriously propose it as a change to canon.  Although, hmmm maybe.  Maybe it 
would be nice to see alternate price rules offered in the books to referees 
who desire the same sort of game effects I'm talking about.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:28:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:28:12 -0700
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices
References: <ML-2.3.1017775268.4978.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CAA145C.2030502@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> jimv writes:
> 
>>I've always wondered why ships cost so much, particularly given
>>the degree of automation & robot labor which ought to be available.
> 
> 
> Well, you do realize that traveller starships are huge.

Traveller starships are vessels of a magnitude somewhere between a C5 or 
Boeing 767 and a medium sized freighter, neither of which is cheap.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:33:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:33:08 -0600
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
References: <F150I5MQ8S8M30TqD1C000114f8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAA1584.37136E3E@premier.net>


"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the
> kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal,
> pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard
> Cavalry.

According to GT:BtC, the kian is native to Prilissa (3035 Trin's Veil)
[page 121].

I don't know of kian stats in any game system.

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:41:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:41:28 +0100
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>
Message-ID: <005101c1da86$d5f683e0$5d9493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Wouldn't this make for an excellent GT supplement as well? That way, it
> might even see print...
>
>
>

You could pitch it to Quiklink as part of the PDF line supporting
T20/CT.....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:44:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:44:18 +0000
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
Message-ID: <F127LDp7mvjkO22ZhCl0000dc60@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?"


Mr. Kwon,

     Robots IMTU are little more than mobile, expert systems.  A pretty lame 
take on the subject, but creativity isn't one of my strong suits.
     The more robots deal with humans or operate within a general human 
setting, the more likely they'll be the upright, bipedal, anthromorphic 
robots of classic sci-fi.  A two-legged, vaguely human shaped, robot with 
arms and hands will be preferred as a steward or medic by most folks over a 
metal box on treads with tentacles.  Robots with "hands" will also be able 
to use the same utensils and tools the rest of the crew uses.
     Robots in industrial settings will be far less anthromorphic, in those 
settings function will drive form.
     The inclusion of the robot operations skill in later CT seemed to 
support my take on the subject.  While anyone could "use" a robot for simple 
purposes, only skilled operators could make full use of a robot's programmed 
skill set.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:51:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:51:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402152005.027e07c0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017780666.495.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> 
> I thought of that, but have three problems there.
> 
> First, it's highly unlikely tiny starships will be able to support 
> themselves.  They'll be _somewhat_ cheaper to construct, but still probably
>  greater than 10 megacredits, but maintenance and operations will eat the 
> owner alive.

Merchant ships pretty much need to be several tens of megacredits to have any
chance of business survival anyway.  The economics of scale at the low end are
too large.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:45:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:45:37 +1000
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices [was Re: Living...on an Airplane]
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> In other words, reduce hull, computer, maneuver, and power plant
> costs by probably two orders of magnitude but jump drives by only
> one.  Which still doesn't work out quite as tidily as I'd like.

That would start to eat into my suspension of disbelief,
unfortunately.  I would expect a spaceship the size of a small mansion
to cost at least a similar amount, and probably quite a bit more.
After all, a planet-based house doesn't have to protect you against
solar flares, vacuum, extremes of heat and cold, or move at thousands
of kilometres per second.


> I would like it if you could commission say a really nice yacht for 3 
> megacredits or less.  Which is still a huge sum of money.

Well, you can think of a 100 dton spaceship as being about the volume
of 100-foot luxury yachts, which apparently have a price tag of a few
million US dollars.  I don't think a spacecraft should cost a lot
less; quite the reverse.


>  Weaponry and shield costs would remain unmodified.  Or a 200-ton
> free trader for maybe just under 1 megacredit, built new.

My figures get close to this *without* a jump drive, at 1.5 MCr.  I
get jump-1 engine plus minimum fuel at 1.4 MCr, so getting close.


> Which got me to wondering if I couldn't make the cost for jump
> drives go up proportional to the square of the jump number.

IMO, they ought to.  Supposedly, the difficulty of building jump
drives with successive capabilities increases per *tech level*, so it
must be greatly more difficult.  At least comparable to the difference
between prop-driven craft and jets, for every jump number increase.

If you're fiddling with the figures, a doubling of cost per unit
volume each jump number wouldn't be out of line IMO.  That could give
a jump engine cost for a 200 dton ship of 1.2 MCr for jump-1, up to
140 MCr for jump-6. These figures would be in CrImp, not local
currency.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:49:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:49:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sW9A-0001AK-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> on 4/1/02 10:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com
> wrote: > > I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that
> difficult to > build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate
> power > battery.  
> 
> I have yet to be convinced that such things will work, and be at all
> effective.  Particularly as the  strength of burst will be inversely
> proportional to the to the square of the distance.  Has anyone
> actually seen a demonstration where this works?  It should be rather
> easy to test.
> 
> Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical
> martial arts 'death touch'.

Look at the article about them in the New Scientist of July 1, 2000

or look at

www.infowar.com/mil_c4i/mil_c4i8.html-ssi 
www.dallas.net/~pevler/jec.htm 
www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/ news/RFWeap.htm 

or look up flux compressors

The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures 
I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius 
kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:50:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:50:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I keep looking at the p-H3 reaction, and although it has a 
high hurdle for starting, it yields more energy per unit 
fuel, and is aneutronic.

Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
doesn't seem to be that hard to find.

It looks like you could build a much smaller H3 fusion 
reactor, not just from the standpoint of overall yield per 
unit fuel, but also because no energy would be wasted 
accelerating neutrons (70% of the D-T cycle is neutron 
energy), and there would be no need to have neutron 
shielding.  I can almost see the argument that the only way 
to get a "tabletop" fusion reactor would be to run it on H3.

Looking for a handwave for H3 reactors...

If you were suddenly able to take a TL15 (CT High Guard) 
powerplant, and say that an H3 reactor for the same output 
had a displacement 70% less...  the fuel consumption would 
also be smaller...  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:57:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:57:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017784677.311.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> I keep looking at the p-H3 reaction, and although it has a 
> high hurdle for starting, it yields more energy per unit 
> fuel, and is aneutronic.
> 
> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.

Well, it has essentially no natural abundance on earth, since most helium on
earth, IIRC, comes from alpha decay.  Aside from this problem, D-He3 is
considered a promising second-generation fusion fuel (p-He3 is much harder to
pull off, and no more useful).
> 
> It looks like you could build a much smaller H3 fusion 
> reactor, not just from the standpoint of overall yield per 
> unit fuel, but also because no energy would be wasted 
> accelerating neutrons (70% of the D-T cycle is neutron 
> energy), and there would be no need to have neutron 
> shielding.  I can almost see the argument that the only way 
> to get a "tabletop" fusion reactor would be to run it on H3.

You'll still get a significant chunk of high energy radiation.
> 
> Looking for a handwave for H3 reactors...
> 
> If you were suddenly able to take a TL15 (CT High Guard) 
> powerplant, and say that an H3 reactor for the same output 
> had a displacement 70% less...  the fuel consumption would 
> also be smaller...  

TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.  One
assumes the neutron problems have been solved.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:04:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:04:52 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sWO7-0004I7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:

> I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
> 
> (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> 
> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

In Jeopardy mode:

Heretics for 100: Who is Galileo

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:22:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:22:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sleeping In Starports, without Jimmy Hoffa
Message-ID: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.sleepinginairports.net/airports.htm

I remember (or my back remembers) sleeping in the airport at 
Frankfurt, waiting for a morning flight.

I suppose that the orbital facility might frown on this, 
considering that I would not only be taking up space, but 
breathing the air as well.

One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the 
price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial 
cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very 
much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be 
possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for 
mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the 
fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator 
runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to 
ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of 
the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.  The 
same device could also be used in recycling to return 
anything to its component atoms.

So, is that how the recycler works on the ship?  Is there 
some plasma separator in there, and it's all reduced to 
whatever the ship's environmental controls are interested 
in?  Dump the other ions into space?

Nice place for the Jimmy Hoffas of the future...

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:27:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:27:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16sW9A-0001AK-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B8CF6F3E.3427B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 1:49 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>> Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical
>> martial arts 'death touch'.
> 
> Look at the article about them in the New Scientist of July 1, 2000
> 
> or look at
> 
> www.infowar.com/mil_c4i/mil_c4i8.html-ssi
> www.dallas.net/~pevler/jec.htm
> www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/ news/RFWeap.htm
> 
> or look up flux compressors
> 
> The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures
> I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius
> kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.

Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find anything.  OK,
I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite terrorist building
these?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:43:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tim Little wrote:
>laning wrote:
> > In other words, reduce hull, computer, maneuver, and power plant
> > costs by probably two orders of magnitude but jump drives by only
> > one.  Which still doesn't work out quite as tidily as I'd like.
>
>That would start to eat into my suspension of disbelief,
>unfortunately.  I would expect a spaceship the size of a small mansion
>to cost at least a similar amount, and probably quite a bit more.
>After all, a planet-based house doesn't have to protect you against
>solar flares, vacuum, extremes of heat and cold, or move at thousands
>of kilometres per second.

Yes, but it's also the same size as a big quonset hut used as a storage 
shed and the hull doesn't need to cost a whole lot more.  In fact, given 
manufacturing capabilities of TTL 12+ industrial worlds, it may well cost 
less, complete with being airtight, radiation proof, and bracing sufficient 
to hold up against maneuvering stresses.

> > I would like it if you could commission say a really nice yacht for 3
> > megacredits or less.  Which is still a huge sum of money.
>
>Well, you can think of a 100 dton spaceship as being about the volume
>of 100-foot luxury yachts, which apparently have a price tag of a few
>million US dollars.  I don't think a spacecraft should cost a lot
>less; quite the reverse.
But the absolute cheapest spacecraft, with hardly yacht-like standards of 
creature comforts or other furnishings, costs about ten times what earth 
yachts cost.



> >  Weaponry and shield costs would remain unmodified.  Or a 200-ton
> > free trader for maybe just under 1 megacredit, built new.
>
>My figures get close to this *without* a jump drive, at 1.5 MCr.  I
>get jump-1 engine plus minimum fuel at 1.4 MCr, so getting close.

Which edition of Traveller rules are you going by?  I think we're talking 
apples and oranges to each other.

LBB 2 says 10 megacredits for the smallest jump drive.  I only have first 
edition (buggy) High Guard, and can't find _either_ of my MT Referee's 
Manuals.  My preferred ship construction rules are MT, since they're all 
together in one place, I like the fuel consumption better, I like being 
forced to balance both mass and volume, and I like Agility.  TNE's FFS goes 
way too far for me in complexity and is only rewarding for plucking certain 
components out of, not when building entire ships (IMHO).  T4's ship design 
rules...the less said, the better.  Although I intend to buy pieces of GT, 
ship construction isn't one of them.

I'd like to use MT rules, but don't have access to them.  IIRC, MT ship 
construction costs were very much in line with LBB 2 costs in most 
situations.  A little bit cheaper if you were going with minimum 
configurations, but not a lot.  I won't use the first edition High Guard in 
this discussion, since we all know they required major revision.  I think 
the standard free trader had major volume discounts etc. and MT sold it for 
something under 25 (?) megacredits because of its standardization.

Costs for the major components of an LBB 2 minimum configuration 200-ton 
ship follow.
200t hull:  8 megacredits
Type A power plant:  8 megacredits
Type A maneuver drive:  4 megacredits
Type A jump drive:  10 megacredits
Model 1 computer with no software:  2 megacredits
Total so far:  32 megacredits

No matter how cheap the hull for the above gets, the other major components 
are going to be a minimum of 24 megacredits.  <Doctor Evil voice> That's 
twenty-four _million_ of your Imperial credits. </Doctor Evil voice>  LOL.

Actually, LBB 2 sells a 200t hull at major discount for standardization, 
along with five other hull sizes.  "Custom" hull sizes are priced at 
cr100,000 per ton.

I'd like to see a 200-dt cost, for example, cr400,000, and the cost of the 
entire rest of a complete ship that's mostly just empty hull for cargo 
space add up to around another cr400,000.  Even then, a PC or group of PCs 
who are able to sell a ship for approaching 1 megacredit can almost run 
amok through the shopping lists for everything else they want.  I can see 
major discounts for buying/selling used, but I'm not comfortable going 
along with buying an old but still serviceable ship for one-tenth of 
original price.  If it's still serviceable, it shouldn't get lower than 
one-quarter of original price.  The only exception would be if a major 
component is likely to need replacing within the next year, that would 
greatly lower the cost.

I like the idea of hulls being the biggest expense in building a low-cost 
ship but I'm still looking at reducing their cost by an order of magnitude 
compared to LBB 2.  Once you buy a hull in decent condition, with a 
lanthanum jump grid, it is an attractive notion that the other components 
can be upgraded (or downgraded) over time.  Without requiring a sum equal 
to the GDP of some Third World countries.

I can rewrite prices to get pretty close to the effect I'm looking 
for.  But that would be inconvenient for my players.  The elegant (or is it 
lazy?) solution would be to tell players to just shift the decimal one or 
two places for each of the major starship components.  That way they could 
look at their rule book during the design sequence and not have to do a lot 
of mental gymnastics to figure out the impact of my house rule on prices.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:58:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:58:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CF6F3E.3427B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <E16sW9A-0001AK-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402175058.028900a0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn says, about EMP pipe bombs:

>Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find anything.  OK,
>I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite terrorist building
>these?

Off the top of my head:

What is its effectiveness against _shielded_ devices?

Terrorists usually like nice dramatic, visible results.  For immediate 
gratification, and for its propaganda value on the nightly television 
news.  EMPs are less than completely satisfying in this regard.

It's relatively new, give it more time.

ObTrav:  Most developed worlds will have good enough shielding in standard 
equipment that terrorists with EMP bombs can accomplish very little.

--Laning

PS  Wasn't an EMP bomb a plot device in the recent remake of 'Oceans Eleven'?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:53:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:53:24 -0600
Subject: [TML] GT starports and fuel
Message-ID: <3CAA3664.E63D6D4F@mail.cswnet.com>

Some ideas, questions, and thoughts to kick around....

First, A fix proposal:
Original text>
Page 72: "The average port should incorporate tankage at least equal to
.06 times the weekly displacement tonnage of starship served."

Additional text>
begining at the end of "served, times the distance in parsecs to the 
closest planetary system. The closest planetary system used for this
purpose may not be interdicted."

Second, the fuel blimp issue p73
Questions:
Could one use fuel blimps to pick up fuel from asteroid belts, assuming
that such belts had ice and the fuel blimp would be picking up the fuel
from a fuel mining station?

Text:"GM should ... assign a small craft cost of Mcr.001 to Mcr1
(averaging Mcr.01)per dt of total weekly starship traffic"

Why is the purpose have having a variation in cost for fuel blimps?
Why would it not be per dt of total weekly starship fuel used?

Three, conversion to CT/HG2
Anyone using GT:Starports for CT/HG2 purposes must remember to add
powerplant fuel to the port tankage requirement. 
Example: Arba has a weekly starship dt of 1050. For GT purposes,
assuming 3 day supply min., 1050*.06*2parsecs=126dt jumpfuel A full week
supply would be double this, 252dt. For CT/HG2, assume a minimum power
plant equal to minimum jump distance; in Arba's case, 2 parsecs.
1050*.01*2=21 for 4 weeks of operation, 10.5 for 2 weeks (enough for 
minimum jump, assuming no bumpy ride). This leaves us with a full weeks
supply for HG2 purposes of 262.5dt.

.01Cr for your thoughts...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:28:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:28:15 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402175058.028900a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8CF7E8F.34298%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 2:58 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Off the top of my head:
> 
> What is its effectiveness against _shielded_ devices?

How many targets are likely to be shielded?
> 
> Terrorists usually like nice dramatic, visible results.  For immediate
> gratification, and for its propaganda value on the nightly television
> news.  EMPs are less than completely satisfying in this regard.

Not necessarily.  There are sophisticated terrorists, particularly state
sponsored ones.  Think of the impact EMP could have on banks and credit
firms.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:32:03 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy Analysis
Message-ID: <20020402233203.5927.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I would assume (there I go with my assumptions again)
that anyone willing to commit piracy would also be
willing to skip. And it's much, much easier to just
skip.
END QUOTE

Except some of the things that make piracy hard such
as always on transponders and huge sensor arrays, also
make it hard to skip. After all there is no point
skipping if you can't sell your ship our make money
through trade or piracy or smuggling. It would be
easier to decalre yourself bankrupt. That is of course
if MyMines don't get hold of you.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:43:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 01:43:39 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <20020402200103.89CDB279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204030126270.19159-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Bruce Johnson writes:
>CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
>>1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to
>>remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible
>
>Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
>ridiculous as well.

No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H. erectus_
and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
showing up as early as that.

But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In
the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place
_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.

>Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens,
>H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.

_H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.

[*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.


Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:49:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204030126270.19159-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <B8CF8370.3429F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 3:43 PM, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen at rancke@diku.dk wrote:

> _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
> mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
> reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
> but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
> 
> [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.

Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are
interfertile.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:56:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:56:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #372 - 42 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020402170616.65F2C279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402155400.00a4c780@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 02 Apr 2002 08:03:56 -0800, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> 
wrote:

>I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
>
>(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
>
>100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

*scratches head*  Knowing Galileo is geeky?  I thought that was called 
"educated."


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:05:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:05:43 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> In fact, given manufacturing capabilities of TTL 12+ industrial
> worlds, it may well cost less, complete with being airtight,
> radiation proof, and bracing sufficient to hold up against
> maneuvering stresses.

That's an argument for making *everything* cost less, not just
starships.  In fact, GT *does* make high-tech worlds a lot richer than
low-tech ones, so this matches pretty well.


> But the absolute cheapest spacecraft, with hardly yacht-like
> standards of creature comforts or other furnishings, costs about ten
> times what earth yachts cost.

I get the cheapest manned interplanetary spacecraft as costing about
50 kCr new at TL 10.  That's not a lot more than an expensive new car.


> Which edition of Traveller rules are you going by?  I think we're talking 
> apples and oranges to each other.

Probably.  I'm using GURPS Traveller and GURPS Vehicles, and dividing
jump drive costs by 10 (but no other changes).


> Although I intend to buy pieces of GT, ship construction isn't one
> of them.

The basic GURPS Traveller book has a modular starship construction
system, so you might find it hard to avoid :)


> Costs for the major components of an LBB 2 minimum configuration 200-ton 
> ship follow.
> 200t hull:  8 megacredits

Ouch!  Under GURPS Vehicles, I can get the cost down to under 0.02 MCr!
(if it doesn't have to land on a planet)

> Type A power plant:  8 megacredits

Double-ouch!  Much less than 0.1 MCr under GT (depending on other
ship's systems).

> Type A maneuver drive:  4 megacredits

Triple-ouch!  If you can accept low acceleration, this could be as low
as you like in most design systems.

> Type A jump drive:  10 megacredits

Yeah, about what GURPS Traveller uses.  By far the biggest expense of
a starship, but not relevant to a mere spaceship.

> Model 1 computer with no software:  2 megacredits

Quadruple-ouch!  You can get away with a few tens of thousands at most
for a bare redundant computer system under GURPS.


Wow, the LBBs really do hit your wallet *hard*!  I suggest using some
other design system if you want lower costs.  *Any* other design
system.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:07:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:07:30 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
Message-ID: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
But your troubles are only just *beginning* -- their
cargo manifest includes 10 dtons of live penguins ...
END QUOTE

PC's on a derelict free trader:
PC1: "Hmmm, blood everywhere but no bodies"
PC2: "The only thing on the manifest is penguins, yet
the cargo bay is empty"
PC3: "Who would slaughter an entire ships crew for
penguins?"
PC2: "They also took the small craft"
PC1: "Whats that noise?"
PC3: "What noise?"
PC1: "Sounded like flapping of some kind"
PC2: "Lets get back to the ship"
PC1: "Okay lets go. <speaking into com> Hey Samantha,
light up the drives where out of here"
<No response>
PC1: "Samantha?, do you read?"
PC2: "Hey wheres Jimmy?"
PC1: <Spinning around to search for Jimmy> "Jimmy,
jimmy?"
<END RECORDING>

James







=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:08:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #372 - 42 msgs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402155400.00a4c780@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <B8CF87E8.342AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 3:56 PM, Kelly St.Clair at kellys@efn.org wrote:

>> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
> 
> *scratches head*  Knowing Galileo is geeky?  I thought that was called
> "educated."

It's even in the digest:

"When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:16:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:16:28 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
Message-ID: <20020403001628.32715.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

Speaking of villians with english accents reminds me
of a scene from Buffy:the vampire slayer. The english
librarian nearly gets killed by a demon and somebody
says:
"I bet your whole life flashed before your eyes, cup
of tea, cup of tea, nearly got shagged, cup of tea"

ObTrav: Sneaky intelligence agents have french
accents, even if they are Zhodani ;) Speaking of which
what would a Zhodani accent be comparable too?

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:28:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:28:43 PST
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204010842.AAA08687@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20402.152843.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?  What does canon say on =
>>this?
>
> Canon says little that I know of.  Generally, I assume it's hard.
>
>>Some parameters here:  I'm not talking about hijacking a ship, nor am I =
>>talking about ship theft incidental to piracy.
>>
>>Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved in stealing a =
>>starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.
>>
>>It seems to me the problem can be considered as four separate issues:

>>3.  Entering the vessel.
>>
>>Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let you in. <g> =20
>>
>>How do starships determine who to admit?  Whoever holds the key?  =
>>Voiceprints?  Biometrics?  Passwords?  Some combination?  Given =
>>sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar (doubtful) or a cutting =
>>torch (probably)? =20
>
> For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't get
> in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
> send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
> do the ship much good, however.

Also, it can't be *too* hard. there will be lots of situations when the
crew wants to get inside *fast*, or they may be a bit "damaged" or
"incapacitated". Or both.

Entry should be merely difficult enough to dissaude *amatuers*. Pros
will get in anyway, so the extra efforts isn't really justifiable in
terms of cost/benefit. 

>>Having forced your way in what active countermeasures do you have to =
>>defeat?  Does the ship send combat bots?  Does the environmental system =
>>become hostile?  Does an anti theft program deliberately destroy the =
>>Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the j-drive useless?
>
> Most likely, none of the above; the ship yells for help and goes into 
> lockdown mode.  Paranoid owners could easily equip the ship with kill
> switches in a few critical concealed junctions.

"Mantrap" type defenses (ie possibly injurious or lethal defenses not
under human control) are a great way to get yourself in *big* trouble
at least in most of the civilized world now. 

As an example, while many jurisdictions say that you can shoot an
intruder who invades your home while you are inside, those same
jurisdictions will be all over you for setting a beartrap when you
aren't home.

The Imperium may be looser about this, but I wouldn't count on it too
far. 

Also, do you *really* want to risk getting killed if there's a bug in
those automated defenses?

>>4.  Establishing vessel control.
>>
>>Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do you get the starship =
>>to respond to your commands?  When you plop down on the pilot's couch =
>>what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver drive?  =
>>Again, is there a key?  Biometrics?  PIN numbers?  How much trouble =
>>would there be in performing the starship analog of a hot-wire job?
>
> For higher tech ships, most likely you're defeating biometrics, plus a
> rather smart robot brain.  Unless you can steal startup information from
> the owner, most likely you're talking hours or days of work, particularly
> if kill switches have been installed.

Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...

But the biggest problem with stealing a starship on the ground will be
getting away. 

At all but the smallest ports, it'd be rather like trying to steal an
airliner from an airport, or a large ocean going vessel from a port.
The tower or the portmaster is going to want to know why you are making
an unscheduled departure. And if you don't have good answers, the Coast
Guard or Air Guard will be there in a hurry.

Stealing a orbit capable vessel (shuttle, etc) would likely be easier.
More like stealing small yacht or a small planes. Way too many of them
and they don't follow schedules. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:38:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:38:10 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>

> From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
> Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's
> kind of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not doing
> any more jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the
> character becomes motivated to take this one, last job.

In fact it's such a "classic bit" that I am considering playing it as a solo
game.

Unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable mission!  : (

I've got a couple of ideas about how to run it, though.  They might be of
interest to the other solo players on the list.

I'm thinking of having a list of possible "patrons", and not deciding which
is actually responsible until my character goes through the exercise of
finding out.  I might also have a set of contacts and potential allies, who
have to be approached and brought into the mission.  All of this takes time,
and possibly travel, and may not be successful.  There will also be other
factions interfering - again, these would be anonymous until identified the
hard way.  There would be some "just plain random" encounters as well.

The idea would be lots of paranoia.  Who is that that is tailing you?  Were
those thugs in the alley working for the other side, or were they just
thugs?  Who were the guys with the plasma guns that blew them away?

Of course there would have to be a list of mapped locations, with some
related NPCs.

Success would come from mobilising your own possible assets, finding out who
else is in the game, thwarting their plans, and working towards your own
devastating exercise in turning the tables on the jerks blackmailing you.

The plot itself would be a McGuffin hunt, shaped by "just in time" random
generation, plus incidents of "a man with a gun enters the room".  It could
be hopelessly convoluted and pointless, or it could be The Maltese Falcon.
Or The Millenium Falcon.

Now all I need is the time and energy to develop these ideas...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:12:07 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7@aol.com>

--part1_ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power
biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.  If the
security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.
 
   Hmmm...A goofy idea just occured to me. Someone outside in their suit 
could manually crank open this small access plate that'd allow him to place 
his head inside. His helmet's visor could then be opened (by servos?) so he 
could do face-to-scanner interaction with the ship, and thus, get the ship to 
open the hatch. Try to fake out the computer and you suddenly discover your 
head is inside a guillotine. Sure wouldn't like to be there when the computer 
decides to acquire a glitch in its programming :)
  -Ken-

"You are born with the yearning arrow, my Glynna.  It is not a happy thing
to possess... It points to the stars, and when it cannot reach them, it falls 
back to pierce your heart."
    - Wind (Isobelle Carmody, "Darkfall")
    




--part1_ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
<BR>intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power
<BR>biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit. &nbsp;If the
<BR>security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
<BR>vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
<BR>other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.
<BR> </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Hmmm...A goofy idea just occured to me. Someone outside in their suit could manually crank open this small access plate that'd allow him to place his head inside. His helmet's visor could then be opened (by servos?) so he could do face-to-scanner interaction with the ship, and thus, get the ship to open the hatch. Try to fake out the computer and you suddenly discover your head is inside a guillotine. Sure wouldn't like to be there when the computer decides to acquire a glitch in its programming :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">"You are born with the yearning arrow, my Glynna. &nbsp;It is not a happy thing
<BR>to possess... It points to the stars, and when it cannot reach them, it falls 
<BR>back to pierce your heart."
<BR>    - Wind (Isobelle Carmody, "Darkfall")</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:16:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:16:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CF7E8F.34298%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402175058.028900a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402195900.00a95950@pop.wizard.net>

At 03:28 PM 4/2/02 -0800, you wrote:
>on 4/2/02 2:58 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
>
> > Off the top of my head:
> >
> > What is its effectiveness against _shielded_ devices?
>
>How many targets are likely to be shielded?
Government property and some industrial/commercial stuff.

I guess one of the best targets for the determined Luddite with an EMP bomb 
(hmm, is that an oxymoron?) would be MAE EAST.  I doubt it's shielded well 
enough.


> >
> > Terrorists usually like nice dramatic, visible results.  For immediate
> > gratification, and for its propaganda value on the nightly television
> > news.  EMPs are less than completely satisfying in this regard.
>
>Not necessarily.  There are sophisticated terrorists, particularly state
>sponsored ones.  Think of the impact EMP could have on banks and credit
>firms.
Yeah, I know.  :-<

At the risk of offending or jangling someone's nerves, those people still 
seem to prefer driving airliners full of avgas into the World Trade Center 
over something that invisibly makes machines stop working.  Partly for 
propaganda as stated above, but also because I think bin Laden and the 
hijackers who did those acts are sick pukes and get their jollies in sick ways.

Lest anyone think I am asserting that the very nature of terrorists makes 
us safe from any of them ever trying an EMP attack, I don't.  In fact, I 
think it is inevitable.  Just as I thought crashing a hijacked airliner 
into the Pentagon or White House or Capitol dome has been inevitable since 
it first occurred to me sometime...sometime around when the first three 
LBBs were published.  Not that there's any connection between the 
two.  It's just that even perfectly innocent people were dreaming up such 
things 25 years ago, and it turns out someone should have been taking those 
stray ideas much more seriously.

If the Gruppenfuhrer for Fatherland Security, er um I mean the Director of 
Homeland Security, ever gets around to it then he should already be pushing 
for hardening key governmental and commercial facilities and infrastructure 
like our power grid.  And looking for ways to trace sales of the rarer 
components required for assembling an EMP bomb capable of affecting a large 
area.

See guys?  Living in undefended New Zealand has its advantages.  All you 
have to do is worry about what to do with all that sheep dung and 
wool.  The folks in the States have to worry about junk like this.

Ever the tenacious one, I seek an ObTrav.  The Ine Givar come to mind, and 
what might their history be with successful and less than successful 
attempts at terror attacks?  Including what they may or may not have tried 
with EMP bombs and it went if they did.  We already know of that unpleasant 
nuclear thing.

--Laning (who often wonders if the National Security Agency in the US is 
driven buggy trying to figure out how to deal with the content that gamers 
put on the Internet)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:23:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:23:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8d0082a2e41@[143.232.119.186]>

On rule of thumb in security is that the hard you make it for 
unwarranted intrusion, the harder you make it for authorized people 
(you can't wear gloves for the thumb print, a cold alters your voice, 
etc.)

In some ways you can claim an entry code is the most secure (you can 
have the computer detect people trying to cycle through all the 
possible combinations), but in the end anything will be bypassible if 
you try hard enough.

Now starships are valuable, and there seems to be examples of people 
leaving them unattended, so I would guess the security to prevent 
intrusion would be high enough that it would be take a lot of effort 
to get in.  The crew will have to accept difficulties in getting in. 
That assumes the ship is unattended.  If there is crew on board, the 
security will be much lighter, just enough to keep someone from 
stolling on board.

I doubt security internally would be that great since the main goal 
will be to keep unauthorized people from wandering around and you 
don't want to obstruct a crewman in a hurry.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:26:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:26:08 +0200
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020403012608.08423dc6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.

Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:29:05 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
> reprinted in various places.

I Google'd around, but all I could find was webpages mentioning it. It
would seem that it is available in various paper reprints, but not on the
web. Sad...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:31:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020402.173115.-2657.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:12:07 EST MurfNMurf@aol.com writes:
>
>    Hmmm...A goofy idea just occured to me. Someone outside in their 
suit  could manually crank open this small access plate that'd allow him 
to place  his head inside. His helmet's visor could then be opened (by 
servos?) so he  could do face-to-scanner interaction with the ship, and
thus, get  the ship to  open the hatch. 

Open the pod bay doors Hal.

I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now.

Hal, open the pod bay doors.

I'm sorry Dave.

HAL! 

Yes Dave.

Hal, I've got to go to the bathroom!

I'm sorry Dave



..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:28:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:28:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
References: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>

At 4:20 AM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example. 
>Paying passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them 
>through the passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger areas 
>of the ship.  Each keycard is unique to each passenger, and so the 
>same card gets them into their own private cabin.  Crew will have 
>similar cards, that give them more freedom, and exactly how much and 
>which greater freedoms would depend on the crew member's billet.

I really don't see the crew needing card to move about the ship. 
That is going to get old in a hurry, could be a problem in an 
emergency, and is unecessary.

In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go 
where they shouldn't.  You wouldn't actually lock things unless they 
were particularly sensitive or valuable or someone had leasure to get 
into somplace they shouldn't (like an isolated closet).  This is 
similar to what ships use today.

-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:37:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:37:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <20402.152843.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204010842.AAA08687@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>

The esteemed Leonard Erickson wrote, including quotes from Texas Redshift:
> > For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't get
> > in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
> > send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
> > do the ship much good, however.
>
>Also, it can't be *too* hard. there will be lots of situations when the
>crew wants to get inside *fast*, or they may be a bit "damaged" or
>"incapacitated". Or both.
>
>Entry should be merely difficult enough to dissaude *amatuers*. Pros
>will get in anyway, so the extra efforts isn't really justifiable in
>terms of cost/benefit.
I agree but only a little bit.  The penalty when you do lose a ship (and 
probably some lives at the same time) is very large.  Typically hundreds of 
millions.  Yes, it is a touchstone of security that no security system is 
perfect, and you shouldn't spend excess effort on attempting to perfect 
your security beyond a point that is appropriate to your degree of risk and 
the cost if security fails.  Even one fat trader or passenger liner lost is 
going to drive everyone's insurance rates through the roof and may risk 
putting the insurer financially on the ropes.  If nobody else does, then 
insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security 
measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time 
and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.

The military will probably take a very different approach.  They'll rely on 
numerous armed crewmembers and armed ships in the area, and not bother with 
all the automated stuff.  The personnel and other vessels have to be there 
anyway, it isn't like it costs them extra.

> > Most likely, none of the above; the ship yells for help and goes into
> > lockdown mode.  Paranoid owners could easily equip the ship with kill
> > switches in a few critical concealed junctions.
>
>"Mantrap" type defenses (ie possibly injurious or lethal defenses not
>under human control) are a great way to get yourself in *big* trouble
>at least in most of the civilized world now.
I agree this will be a problem, but the Traveller universe's legal 
standards are not the same as the USA's.  As we all have reminded ourselves 
in the past during other discussions.  I did allude in my own earlier post 
to liability insurance possibly being voided by installation of security 
hardware capable of inflicting physical harm.  Even my trick with the grav 
plates may be rather expensive to get insurance for.  (Personally, I'd want 
it anyway, just not in sleeping quarters.)  IMTU, a ship without valid 
insurance finds itself unable to get permits for travelling most places in 
the Imperium.  Starport authorities don't want them around, booking agents 
won't want to sell passenger tickets for them, etc.

Oh, I'm not sure that the phrase "kill switches" was supposed to mean 
mantrap defenses.  I think it may have meant disabling critical ship's 
systems.  Perhaps a triphammer smashes the zuchai crystals.  <G>


>As an example, while many jurisdictions say that you can shoot an
>intruder who invades your home while you are inside, those same
>jurisdictions will be all over you for setting a beartrap when you
>aren't home.
>
>The Imperium may be looser about this, but I wouldn't count on it too
>far.
>
>Also, do you *really* want to risk getting killed if there's a bug in
>those automated defenses?
Few will, so even if they're able to obtain insurance and overcome the 
other issues, the minute someone points out to the risk to them of being 
hoist by their own petard, most owners/captains will drop the idea.

>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
>someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
>attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...
I see we've met some of the same player characters.  :->


>But the biggest problem with stealing a starship on the ground will be
>getting away.

Yes.  Exactly.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:34:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:34:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204030134.DFP01107@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite 
>terrorist building these?
>--

You have me there.  I think that there are a fair number of 
people on this list who are capable of manufacturing a flux 
compression generator, and a vircator (or obtaining something 
like it).

None of the technology involved in making such a device is 
restricted in the US other than the explosives.

It reminds me of a railgun in reverse, except you have an 
explosive driving the short back down the gun, and the power 
has nowhere to go except into a smaller and smaller area.  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:36:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
In-Reply-To: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]>

In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would 
tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary 
arrays.....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:40:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:40:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204030140.DFP01461@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>How many targets are likely to be shielded?

The literature I've been reading says that if your equipment 
is not completely enclosed in a Faraday cage, and you're 
inside the effective radius, your equipment is toast.

Antennae and metal cables that protrude outside the cage, or 
fiber cables that go through metal conduits will act as a 
waveguide if the bomb uses microwaves.

Think of the kind of shielding that was necessary for 
shielding against nuclear EMP.  The conventional EMP bomb has 
two advantages: longer pulse time and tunable frequency (by 
design).
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:41:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:41:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com> <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>


"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
> In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
> tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
> arrays.....

Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:46:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:46:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <20020403001628.32715.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402203829.027db060@pop.wizard.net>

James asks:
>ObTrav: Sneaky intelligence agents have french
>accents, even if they are Zhodani ;) Speaking of which
>what would a Zhodani accent be comparable too?

People who use the "zh" sound a lot?  Perhaps they are all French, since 
typically the letter J is pronounced as a zh sound en Francais.  Wargamers 
being the lot we typically are, it is hard to keep them from sinking into 
Monty Python and the Holy Grail shtick whenever French accents come up, 
however.  That is not desirable.

I'm drawing a blank for "zh" speakers.  Places that are vaguely middle 
eastern or central asian come to mind for some reason, but nothing specific.

I've always _wanted_ to give my Zhos accents, so this is definitely a 
worthwhile thread if we can derive an answer.

OTOH, it's silly to imagine that all people in a star-spanning empire have 
the same accent.  I mean, we can't even get all people on Terra to have the 
same accent.  There are hundreds of languages here, often extremely 
different from each other.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:45:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:45:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204030145.DFP01794@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>See guys?  Living in undefended New Zealand has its 
>advantages.  All you have to do is worry about what to do 
>with all that sheep dung and wool.  The folks in the States 
>have to worry about junk like this.
>

Well, they do have to worry about their government going 
silly on them.  That, and there's a story about a coffee 
roaster who was forced to stop roasting coffee at all hours 
(seems the neighbors didn't like the smell).

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:57:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:57:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>

>Tim Little, after comparing GURPS ship construction costs to LBB 
>construction costs, says:
>Wow, the LBBs really do hit your wallet *hard*!  I suggest using some
>other design system if you want lower costs.  *Any* other design
>system.

Actually, all the nonGURPS Traveller ship construction rules will produce 
results _much_ closer to the LBB prices than to GURPS prices.  And from 
what I've skimmed in the GURPS rules, I'd rather not switch to them, 
thanks.  I like MT ship building.

I think the original idea behind such expensive ships was to avoid having a 
Jetsons future where everyone can drive the family car to another planet 
for a weekend jaunt.  They wanted to have put high, but not impossibly 
high, barriers to frequent travel between star systems.  Otherwise there's 
no reason to believe that each the civilizations on each planet will remain 
distinctly different from each other after 1,100 years of being in the same 
Imperium and rubbing elbows all the time.

If you want worlds to have truly unique and _alien_ differences from each 
other, then you have to make travel between worlds be rare.   Which also 
makes the traveller (our intrepid player character) herself be rare and 
special.  That adds to escapist pleasure of roleplaying.

And I buy into all that, I do.  But I think we won't significantly alter 
traffic levels if we make ships hugely cheaper but still the province only 
of the very wealthy, a well funded corporation, or a government.  In fact, 
I am suspicious that canonical ship construction is so expensive that it 
can't properly account for the numbers of trade vessels that are required 
to support the massive trade going on between developed worlds.  Not that 
I've crunched any numbers, mind you.  Just talking through my...hat.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:05:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:05:35 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402205809.027d9ba0@pop.wizard.net>

At Alan Bradley quoted and wrote:
> > From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
> > Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's
> > kind of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not doing
> > any more jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the
> > character becomes motivated to take this one, last job.
>
>In fact it's such a "classic bit" that I am considering playing it as a solo
>game.
>
>Unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable mission!  : (
>
>I've got a couple of ideas about how to run it, though.  They might be of
>interest to the other solo players on the list.
I'm interested.  Especially if you can come up with practical ways for the 
bad guys to throw some real surprises at you.  Maybe all those with 
interest in solo play should write our own interactive scripts to post on 
Web sites and then go play on each other's Web sites?

(I'm definitely interested in seeing how successful a game design the new 
NeverWinter Nights will be.  And then applying that to other genres besides 
the Tolkien-cloned D&D games.  Like, science-fiction role-playing 
games.  The basic concept of anyone with a computer and network connection 
being able to tailor their own game world to their own game server and 
leave it up for other players is an interesting one.  EverQuest for 
Everyman, kind of thing.)

Keep us posted on your progress, please, Alan.

--Laning
"I'm leavin'....on a jet plane
  Don't know when I'll be back again
  Oh, babe
  I hate to go"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:16:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:16:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <200204030216.DFQ00018@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>If you want worlds to have truly unique and _alien_ 
>differences from each other, then you have to make travel 
>between worlds be rare.   Which also makes the traveller 
>(our intrepid player character) herself be rare and 
>special.  That adds to escapist pleasure of roleplaying.
>

I've recently come to the same conclusion, and the main 
handwave that I use is that there is a maximum size jump 
drive that can be built at each TL, and therefore a maximum 
size ship (regardless of how much cash you have).

Having re-read the Kinunir (I know, I know..) they talk about 
one of the ships in the class not being able to reach its 
full jump potential.  I therefore like the idea that you can 
build to a jump number, but whether or not you get it 
consistently with every ship in the class is something else.  
This means that a military ship may go through several refits 
in order to achieve its potential.  Reminds me of some 
fighter aircraft (the F-14 springs to mind) that didn't get 
decent engines until later in their useful life.  And some 
started with engines that were positively lethal.

I know that there are a lot of people who like the big spinal 
mounts, but I've reduced the maximum tonnage of ships to a 
fairly linear plot from 5000 tons at TL 9 to 20,000 tons at 
TL 15 (CT/HG).  I'm also assuming that the larger the ship, 
the more likely that the jump drive will be problematic.  
This explains the use of relatively small ships (200 and 400 
ton) despite the fact that with either HG or MT, much larger 
ships should completely Microsoft, I mean, replace all 
smaller vessels.

Also, I believe (John The Heretic) that abusing your jump 
drives leads to damage that is never really undone.  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:17:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:17:46 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <001f01c1da40$0a82f040$2c5d8690@computer>
References: <20020402064409.B8250279FA@mail.travellercentral.com> <001f01c1da40$0a82f040$2c5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <dhpkauca8tq85ip65jgf2n884na681gjhc@4ax.com>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:14:25 +1000, "Alan Bradley"
<abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:

>> From: JR Holmes=20
>> This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
>> There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
>> (or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
>> sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
>> example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.
>>=20
>> =3D46rom a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become =
part
>> of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
>> destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
>> becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.
>
>You evil naughty man...

And you wouldn't do the the same?

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:30:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:30:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>

Jens Rydholm quoted then opined:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been
> > reprinted in various places.
>
>I Google'd around, but all I could find was webpages mentioning it. It
>would seem that it is available in various paper reprints, but not on the
>web. Sad...

Sad?  Not if you talk to Harlan Ellison.  It's another intellectual 
property debate.  Artists and other creators have no capitalist incentive 
to share their work if it can be freely copied.  And, like any other 
property, they feel it's only fair that they be able to bequeath to their 
heirs.  Harlan is quite adamant about passing his IP rights (and royalties) 
down to his daughters.  He's hardly alone.  And anyone on the list who is 
still collecting royalties of some kind on their own published material 
takes more than a theoretical interest, I suppose.

I am on both sides of the fence (I'm like Jeremy the Nowhere Man in 'Yellow 
Submarine' or the Scarecrow in 'The Wizard of Oz').  I sympathize with 
Harlan Ellison and others.  I also feel strongly that sharing knowledge has 
less value to the human race if the knowledge is only shared with those who 
can pay for it.  The Internet is a great democratizer of knowledge 
sharing.  (It's more a socialist thing than a democracy thing, but it's not 
generally acceptable in the States to express it that way.)

I love usenet and mailing lists and even the WWW and email.  Everyone can 
share all their information freely!  And some of it is even accurate!  And 
I love that writers can make a living by writing!  Uh-oh, wait, I have a 
problem here.

What mechanisms are in place within the Imperium, or in other entities, for 
owners of IP rights to protect them against abuse on other planets?  I 
think the TML has tried to delve into this in the past, but always kind of 
veered away.  Or if we covered it, I was on hiatus from the TML due to 
traffic levels and shortage of time.  Certainly, it is not a condition of 
membership in the Imperium for member worlds to enforce any such 
mechanisms.  Does the Imperium still play a large role?  Perhaps backing a 
voluntary, but widely adhered to, accord or convention on IP rights?  Is 
part of the extensive data traffic between member worlds is updates to 
databases that track book sales, TriD sales, etc.?  In contract disputes 
over royalties where the parties to the dispute reside on different worlds, 
how are they resolved?

By the way, Jens, have you read Hal Clement's 'Mission of Gravity'?  A 
great example of intelligent alien life forms evolving on a world extremely 
different from Terra.  A just plain extreme world, in fact.  Clement opens 
the hood and lets us peer into a lot of the alien building he does.  The 
book's a classic, in fact.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:00:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:00:59 PST
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204011745.g31Hji001663@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20402.180059.2g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> As I've mentioned before, I've been toying w/ the idea of
> inertial suppression as a means of fast accelleration in an
> sf-rpg I'm *slowly* putting together w/ the help of some
> friends. However, there's some conflict over how to achieve
> this (I can email two articles which hint at the scientific
> premise to anyone who's interested). There's also the problem
> of unintended consequences. Since inertial suppression also
> exists in Traveller (so that ships can accellerate at 6G
> w/o squashing their crews), it might be a good idea to
> consider these consequences for a bit.

No. Inertial *compensation* exists in Traveller. Inertial
*suppression/neutralization* is a different matter.

The effects in Traveller could be simply created by an additional
component to the ship's artifical gravity that is equally and opposite
to the acceleration from the drive. The inertial mass of the contents
of the ship is unchanged, but a counteracting force is applied
uniformly to them

True inertia neutralization (or suppression) changes F=ma to F=kma
where k is a constant (or variable) determined by the degree of
neutralization. 

In effect, you are changing the inertial mass of the objects in
question. If this was what was happening in Traveller, then you
couldn't throw a ball across a compartment. As soon as you quit
pushing, the air resistance would stop it. 

BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
playing "grav pong" with hijackers.

> Basically, if I read him right, what he appears to be saying is that
> if you lower inertia in a given space by 99%, people in that area will
> have much more strength than they're used to having, because the
> chemical reactions going on in their bodies which generate energy
> will still be generating as much energy, but for a much smaller
> apparent mass, meaning that they'll be able to perform extrodinary
> feats (and quite possibly hurt themselves), and that the only way
> around this is to downscale everything else, which generates a
> very strange and inconsistent reality.
>
> What do other people think about this argument?

Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects. 

There's also the question as to whether or not gravitational mass and
inertial mass are the same thing. Last I heard, experiments had shown
that they were the same to with 1 part in something like 10^12, but
it's still an *assumption* that they are the same thing.

But assuming that you can live thru the process, then it'd be best to
ignore all the effects at the sub-molar level (ie molecular and lower).

This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:15:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:15:59 PST
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204011749.DDD03964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20402.181559.4K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
> effects when you modify Planck's constant.

Starting with minor things like matter as we know it not being possible
if you tweak it more than a *tiny* bit.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:17:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:17:51 PST
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204020013.g320DTU02643@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20402.181751.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
>> effects when you modify Planck's constant.
>
> Not talking about modifying Planck's constant. Only talking about
> modifying inertia. Tim introduced the idea of modifying Planck's
> constant as a device to keep strangeness from happening when
> inertia is modified, but I'm not 100% sure that inertial suppression
> would necessarily result in strangeness in the first place. Trying
> to get some thoughts on the matter.

The attraction between particles (molecules, etc) would be the same.
But their (effective) mass would be lower. Making the accelerations due
to the forces higher. Which would give the *effect* of making the
forces stronger.

That's why I said that it'd be best to just handwave all the stuff at
the molecular and lower layers. Dealing with the effects at the "gross"
(molar) level is gonna be hairy enough.

The only writers that have ever dealt with this that I can recall are
E.E. Smith in the Lensman series, and one small section of one of
Heinlein's Future History stories (the one that introduces the Howard
Familes, and which I cannot recall the title of)-:

I do like one idea of Smith's. Namely that you retain your original
velocity vector while "free". If you are doing partial neutralization,
things would get messier, but they'd still be doable. 

This provides a nice complication in that when you restore inertua, you
have to worry about which direction that vector point. If it's aimed at
a nearby solid object, Ouch!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:39:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:39:06 -0700
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> or look up flux compressors 
> 
> The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures 
> I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius 
> kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.
> 
> Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find
> anything.  OK, I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite
> terrorist building these? --

That's a very good question.  I've read speculation that they may 
have been used in some places, but I'd think the evidence would be 
pretty obvious (lots of fried computers).  At that point, I'm guessing 
that most terrorists want to see blood far more than lost data.

OTOH, I wonder if more some of the more hard-line 
environmentalist groups like Green Peace and Earth First know 
about these things, maybe I'll send them a link :)

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:42:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:42:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
 <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402213220.0287eec0@pop.wizard.net>

David Summers quoted me and wrote:
>At 4:20 AM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>>There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example. Paying 
>>passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them through the 
>>passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger areas of the 
>>ship.  Each keycard is unique to each passenger, and so the same card 
>>gets them into their own private cabin.  Crew will have similar cards, 
>>that give them more freedom, and exactly how much and which greater 
>>freedoms would depend on the crew member's billet.
>
>I really don't see the crew needing card to move about the ship. That is 
>going to get old in a hurry, could be a problem in an emergency, and is 
>unecessary.
I agree with your thesis expressed earlier that crew needs to be able to 
move about the ship on their duties unimpeded.  What I had in mind was 
keeping the passenger-only areas fenced off.  Crew will have to pass 
through access-control points entering and exiting passenger areas, but 
it's a pretty low-level annoyance.  Just wave their Crew ID Badge in the 
general direction of the hatch.  It's probably clipped to their sleeve or 
collar.

>In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go where 
>they shouldn't.  You wouldn't actually lock things unless they were 
>particularly sensitive or valuable or someone had leasure to get into 
>somplace they shouldn't (like an isolated closet).  This is similar to 
>what ships use today.

I _tried_ to go where I wasn't allowed when I was aboard a cruise ship 
about fifteen years ago.  All the doors/hatches were locked.  Crew had keys 
for the doors they normally needed access to.  This was before electronic 
keys or crypto keys were common; I mean the crew had traditional keys.  A 
lot of doors were locked from the passenger side but not from the crew 
side.  Crew usually had to either knock to gain access from the passenger 
side, or go around the long way to somewhere they could enter.  Unsecured 
doors usually had a _lot_ of crew in the immediate vicinity.  If someone 
steals an ocean liner they can do a lot of damage, but if someone steals a 
starship they can potentially do far more than that.  I'd think starships 
have more safeguards than ocean liners.  IMTU.  YMMV.  :->

I like to envision ship security levels that make a player character think 
and work and plan really hard to succeed at gaining control of a ship's 
bridge and engineering.  But still keep it possible.  It should be rare and 
one of the proudest illegal achievements a player can brag of.  Most RPGers 
I've known are far too casual and impulsive to have a ghost of a chance at 
success.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:55:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:55:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20402.180059.2g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204011745.g31Hji001663@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215009.0283aec0@pop.wizard.net>

Leonard Erickson, in replying to JimV said:

>BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
>higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
>artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
>playing "grav pong" with hijackers.
Sounds like we see it the same way.  Although +6 gees to -6 gees in less 
than one second should be sufficient grav pong to deal with most hijackers.

I've always wondered at the canonical lack of ships capable of 
accelerations far greater than 6 gees.  We subject astronauts and fighter 
pilots to accelerations between 4 and 6 gees, so you'd think that high 
performance military aircraft would be capable of accelerating many gees 
faster than their internal grav compensation can handle.  They accelerate 
at 10 gees, have 6 gees of that compensated, and a "felt acceleration" of 4 
gees.

>Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
>things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects.

Yeah, it's way too messy a pandora's box for me to consider it seriously.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:59:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:59:49 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net> <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20020403125949.A14872@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go
> where they shouldn't.

On one sea trip on a passenger ferry I went exploring the passenger
accessible areas, and ended up on the wrong side of a very impressive
looking "Authorized Personnel Only" sign hanging on a heavy chain for
emphasis.  The strange thing is, I never actually passed any such
signs to get to the wrong side of the chained-off region :)

I could easily see the same thing happening on a large passenger liner
in Traveller.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:04:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:04:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204030216.DFQ00018@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215722.02839ec0@pop.wizard.net>

>I know that there are a lot of people who like the big spinal
>mounts, but I've reduced the maximum tonnage of ships to a
>fairly linear plot from 5000 tons at TL 9 to 20,000 tons at
>TL 15 (CT/HG).  I'm also assuming that the larger the ship,
>the more likely that the jump drive will be problematic.
>This explains the use of relatively small ships (200 and 400
>ton) despite the fact that with either HG or MT, much larger
>ships should completely Microsoft, I mean, replace all
>smaller vessels.
>
>Also, I believe (John The Heretic) that abusing your jump
>drives leads to damage that is never really undone.

I like spinal mounts.  The combat advantages in fleet actions are so great 
that I think battles tend to go to whoever has the most spinal 
mounts.  Back when they were doing TCS tournaments at cons, I think that 
tended to be the consensus as well.

I like your ideas about jump number being a nominal spec that has to be 
worked at to achieve in the field.  But we need rules, man, rules.  I'm not 
sure I agree with the Microsoft theory of big ships eating little ships, 
but IMHO the canonical Traveller universe stretches the old credibility 
suspenders awfully far to have such a plethora of small merchant ships 
running around all the time instead of shipping being dominated by 5,000t 
and bigger vessels.  I'd be more inclined to agree with large shipping 
_corporations_ eating little ones.  Which is possibly a better description 
of what Microsoft does, anyway.

I am interested in permanent damage to jump drives when they are 
abused.  But again I need rules, man!  Exactly what constitutes 
abuse?  Exactly how do you determine the consequences of abuse?  How much 
of that damage can be repaired, and what is required to repair it?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:12:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:12:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
In-Reply-To: <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b8d0233486e4@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:41 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
>"David P. Summers" wrote:
>>
>>  In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
>>  tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
>>  arrays.....
>
>Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
>masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....

But the tags would be unforgeable based on the penguins DNA!  Clearly 
this would be justified based on the threat that penguins pose.  (How 
could the Imperium  claim to control their territory if penguins roam 
free?)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:12:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:12:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Reply Etiquette Flame (was: Galileo)
In-Reply-To: <20020403013707.22C1527A00@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402190656.00a4a160@mailhost.efn.org>

Todd Glenn wrote, in response to a post where I forgot to change the 
default subject (something I am normally very good about):

>It's even in the digest:
>
>"When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."

Nice of you to quote my entire message just to bitch about the subject 
line.  Especially when I'm one of those who does take care to trim his 
quotes, post below quoted material, not use Outlook or post MIME to the 
list, etc etc...

In closing, sir, you are invited to <biological function> yourself.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:21:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:21:11 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <3CAA7526.B59B63BA@mail.cswnet.com>

Timothy Little writes:
>Wow, the LBBs really do hit your wallet *hard*!  I suggest using some
>other design system if you want lower costs.  *Any* other design
>system.

Yeah, but what other design system lets you have...
[drum roll with trumpets]

		THE INFAMOUS ONE MAN SCOUT SHIP!

Besides, a real Traveller scoffs at mere Mcr's. Its the Tcr's
that we pay attention to...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:26:02 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <3CAA764A.60353DD6@mail.cswnet.com>

General Turokan writes:
>Open the pod bay doors Hal.

>I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now.

>Hal, open the pod bay doors.

>I'm sorry Dave.

>HAL! 

>Yes Dave.

>Hal, I've got to go to the bathroom!

>I'm sorry Dave

One [1] keyboard kill.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:25:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:25:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <200204030325.DFT00415@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says 

"I need rules, man"

OK.  Let's do this on the assumption that there is a maximum 
size of ship that can be sent through jump space at each TL.

Start at 1000 tons at TL 9 and work your way up to TL 15 (CT).

That's the first rule.  You go next.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:43:03 +1000
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
References: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001401c1dac2$798ed940$86b18b90@computer>

> From: John Groth 
> I don't know of kian stats in any game system.

<vague memory surfacing>

Try original (print) JTAS.

I can't check at the moment, alas.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:48:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:48:07 +1000
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
Message-ID: <001501c1dac2$7cd48e60$86b18b90@computer>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>      The more robots deal with humans or operate within a general human
> setting, the more likely they'll be the upright, bipedal, anthromorphic
> robots of classic sci-fi.  A two-legged, vaguely human shaped, robot with
> arms and hands will be preferred as a steward or medic by most folks over
a
> metal box on treads with tentacles.  Robots with "hands" will also be able
> to use the same utensils and tools the rest of the crew uses.
>      Robots in industrial settings will be far less anthromorphic, in
those
> settings function will drive form.

There will be one category of robot that will be pseudo-biological - the
good old "companion" bot - servant, secretary, and sex-toy.

They don't have to be especially bright, or particularly able to pass for
human in social settings, so they aren't necessarily _hugely_ expensive.
They still will be toys for the wealthy, though.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:32:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:32:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <20020403001628.32715.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402222929.02df3008@192.168.0.1>

At 10:16 AM 4/3/2002 +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
>Speaking of villians with english accents reminds me
>of a scene from Buffy:the vampire slayer. The english
>librarian nearly gets killed by a demon and somebody
>says:
>"I bet your whole life flashed before your eyes, cup
>of tea, cup of tea, nearly got shagged, cup of tea"
>ObTrav: Sneaky intelligence agents have french
>accents, even if they are Zhodani ;) Speaking of which
>what would a Zhodani accent be comparable too?

Well...given the 'canon' cold war setup, the Zho would have Russian Accents.
That would make their Vargr allies Cubans (picture a Vargr in fatigues with 
a cigar and an AK-47 and a thick Spanish accent).
Hmmm...Sword Worlders would be the various Eastern European Warsaw Pact 
countries.
Your basic heavy handed eastern European accent.



----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:40:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:40:48 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403134048.A15012@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> I think the original idea behind such expensive ships was to avoid
> having a Jetsons future where everyone can drive the family car to
> another planet for a weekend jaunt.

Actually, they didn't really succeed :)

Even in non-GURPS versions of Traveller, there are much cheaper
spacecraft than starships, some of them capable of reaching Mars from
Earth in a day or so.  Granted, even there they are far more expensive
than an average Hyundai, but nowhere near the cost of a jump-capable
craft.


>  They wanted to have put high, but not impossibly high, barriers to
> frequent travel between star systems.  Otherwise there's no reason
> to believe that each the civilizations on each planet will remain
> distinctly different from each other after 1,100 years of being in
> the same Imperium and rubbing elbows all the time.

I think there is.  The time barriers suffice, if nothing else.  With
typically available jump drives, it takes *years* to get across the
Imperium.  Even if those drives were dirt cheap.

Furthermore, each planet has *drastically* different environmental
conditions and resources; much more different than say France is from
Antartica.  The economic drivers will be radically different in
various systems, and won't merge just because vehicles are cheap.

Even if travel between stars was absolutely free of charge, it still
takes at least a week or two to get to the nearest neighbouring
system.  That alone presents a social barrier to homogenisation even
within a subsector, let alone a sector or the Imperium as a whole.

This includes military homogenisation: A fleet of battleships at Core,
no matter how powerful, is no good against a tiny pack of Vargr ships
in the Spinward Marches.  So some areas have recent incursions by
foreigners, and large military forces for their population.  Other
areas have not seen a warship in action for generations, and receive
tenth-hand news 6 months old from the nearest conflict.  If they care.


Which brings up the next point: species differences.  Even among the
variants of humaniti, there are significant differences.  Then there
are the non-human sentient races, with their own thought processes,
customs, physical requirements and preferred cultures.  To say nothing
of the enormous variety of non-sentient natural wildlife present only
on a particular planet.

And you have political differences, which I don't think are likely to
disappear.  People will almost certainly retain differences in belief.
If interstellar travel is cheap that just makes it easier for members
of different cultures to move somewhere else rather than try to
integrate.


I'm sorry, I just don't see how making starships cheap erases all
these things that factor into making a local culture significantly
different from others.  More than that, I don't see how inflating the
cost of inter*planetary* spacecraft adds anything at all to the
variety within the Imperium, let alone differences outside it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:49:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:49:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402213220.0287eec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
 <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402213220.0287eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <p04330106b8d02b8f7e5e@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:42 PM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>David Summers quoted me and wrote:
>>At 4:20 AM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>>>There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example. 
>>>Paying passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them 
>>>through the passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger 
>>>areas of the ship.  Each keycard is unique to each passenger, and 
>>>so the same card gets them into their own private cabin.  Crew 
>>>will have similar cards, that give them more freedom, and exactly 
>>>how much and which greater freedoms would depend on the crew 
>>>member's billet.
>>
>>I really don't see the crew needing card to move about the ship. 
>>That is going to get old in a hurry, could be a problem in an 
>>emergency, and is unecessary.
>I agree with your thesis expressed earlier that crew needs to be 
>able to move about the ship on their duties unimpeded.  What I had 
>in mind was keeping the passenger-only areas fenced off.  Crew will 
>have to pass through access-control points entering and exiting 
>passenger areas, but it's a pretty low-level annoyance.  Just wave 
>their Crew ID Badge in the general direction of the hatch.  It's 
>probably clipped to their sleeve or collar.

Well, some smaller ships have passenger areas in the middle of the 
ship and you have to pass through it to get from one end to the other.

If this isn't true, I think you might see some sort of basic restriction...

>
>>In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go 
>>where they shouldn't.  You wouldn't actually lock things unless 
>>they were particularly sensitive or valuable or someone had leasure 
>>to get into somplace they shouldn't (like an isolated closet). 
>>This is similar to what ships use today.
>
>I _tried_ to go where I wasn't allowed when I was aboard a cruise 
>ship about fifteen years ago.  All the doors/hatches were locked. 
>Crew had keys for the doors they normally needed access to.  This 
>was before electronic keys or crypto keys were common; I mean the 
>crew had traditional keys

OTOH, I was on a ship for a gambling cruise and the bridge, which was 
off the upper deck where the passengers went to sight see, wasn't 
locked (the reason you didn't go in there was the feeling that the 
people in there would object :-)

>I like to envision ship security levels that make a player character 
>think and work and plan really hard to succeed at gaining control of 
>a ship's bridge and engineering.

I think the crew will be their main obstacle.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:37:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:37:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402223515.02da9ec0@192.168.0.1>

At 06:39 PM 6/2/2002 -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> > or look up flux compressors
> > The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures
> > I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius
> > kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.
> > Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find
> > anything.  OK, I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite
> > terrorist building these? --
>That's a very good question.  I've read speculation that they may
>have been used in some places, but I'd think the evidence would be
>pretty obvious (lots of fried computers).  At that point, I'm guessing
>that most terrorists want to see blood far more than lost data.
>OTOH, I wonder if more some of the more hard-line
>environmentalist groups like Green Peace and Earth First know
>about these things, maybe I'll send them a link :)

They already have their own official terrorist wings, ELF & ALF (Earth 
Liberation Front & Animal Liberation Front) leading the FBI lists.

You probably don't want to have the FBI draw a line between you and them.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:54:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:54:45 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402225324.01f21ff0@mail.charter.net>

Loren had mentioned a Traveller specific version of the GURPS character 
generation software was being considered.

Is this project a go?  If so, when would it see the light of day?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
           http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:03:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:03:33 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com> <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <k9vkau413ehik68ii1a6tna2hhcq425icf@4ax.com>

On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:38:10 +1000, "Alan Bradley"
<abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:

>> From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
>> Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's
>> kind of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not =
doing
>> any more jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the
>> character becomes motivated to take this one, last job.
>
>In fact it's such a "classic bit" that I am considering playing it as a =
solo
>game.
>
>Unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable mission!  : (
>
>I've got a couple of ideas about how to run it, though.  They might be =
of
>interest to the other solo players on the list.
>
><SNIP>
>
>Success would come from mobilising your own possible assets, finding out=
 who
>else is in the game, thwarting their plans, and working towards your own
>devastating exercise in turning the tables on the jerks blackmailing =
you.
>
>The plot itself would be a McGuffin hunt, shaped by "just in time" =
random
>generation, plus incidents of "a man with a gun enters the room".  It =
could
>be hopelessly convoluted and pointless, or it could be The Maltese =
Falcon.
>Or The Millenium Falcon.
>
>Now all I need is the time and energy to develop these ideas...

I find myself in the role of Mr. Movie.  For a pretty nasty story
along these lines, take a look at the movie "Commando".  Our hero is
blackmailed into taking on an assassination for the villians, but
escapes before the plane takes off for the destination.  He then has a
fixed amount of time to chase down villain minions, learn where the
major villain is hiding and rescue the hostage.  Not too much
opportunity for character development, but a good action story.  From
a gaming standpoint, the tracking and interrogation of the henchmen
and most of the fighting could be the solo adventure.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:28:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:28:33 -0600
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net> <p04330105b8d0233486e4@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3CAA76E1.BA4A2BC6@premier.net>


"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
> At 7:41 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
> >"David P. Summers" wrote:
> >>
> >>  In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
> >>  tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
> >>  arrays.....
> >
> >Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
> >masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....
> 
> But the tags would be unforgeable based on the penguins DNA!  Clearly
> this would be justified based on the threat that penguins pose.  (How
> could the Imperium  claim to control their territory if penguins roam
> free?)

Then the penguins merely graft a patch of non-penguin-waterfowl skin and
feathers to the tag attachment point (ideally waterfowl generally
engaged as tramp freighters or system defense birds), change the tag
code to suit the new DNA and proceed on their marauding ways.... ;-)

The struggle between measure and countermeasure is a never-ending one,
as neither side is likely to gain lasting superiority.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:26:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:26:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020402.202649.-8353.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:26:02 -0600 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
> General Turokan writes:
> >Open the pod bay doors Hal.
>  >I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now.
>  >Hal, open the pod bay doors.
>  >I'm sorry Dave.
>  >HAL! 
>  >Yes Dave.
>  >Hal, I've got to go to the bathroom!
>  >I'm sorry Dave
> 
> One [1] keyboard kill.
> 
> Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

Thanks Dan, my first keyboard kill scored.

Woooooooohooooooo!!

I guess I'm out of the Rookie status now.

Gee, how many more till I can earn Flight Officer?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:13:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:13:41 -0800
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <20020402194040.7979a578.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
 <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402201259.009ec960@mindspring.com>

At 07:40 PM 4/2/02 +0200, you wrote:
>Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
>food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
>predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
>for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world under
>the ice.

Jedi Jellyfish Under The Ice!  I love it!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets.
                                 - Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:44:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:44:29 +1000
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS That's just nasty...
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C178F5@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

From Paul:
I saw a special on the toob some time ago about these
two women who started a business cleaning up after the
police were done at murder scenes.  They contracted
either to the insurance co or mortgage co.  They would
go in and make a nasty place livable again.

Not my idea of fun employment.

From Me:
In Oz we have this funeral service that mostly employs female ex nurses
dressed in white. I forget their name (something like the white sisters -
but less Aryan than that). They figured that with emotions running high in
the immediate hours after a death that the ladies, who have skills in
calming people down, and who have come to collect the bodies, was a good
thing. I remember seeing an interview where the ladies would turn up and
relatives would be on the front lawn screaming over who was getting
'grandma's antique bed spread', and the ladies would have to calm things
down.  

I would think being on Highway patrol/Ambulance would be messed up. I
remember stats about suicides/depression amongst crews that regularly attend
road accidents being statistically aberrant (something like double their
less highway inclined colleagues). I think the some Police Services in Oz
roster members on attending road deaths for like only a month a year because
of this. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:45:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204030325.DFT00415@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402225752.027fbae0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon, that fiendish b*st*rd, wrote:
>laning says
>
>"I need rules, man"
>
>OK.  Let's do this on the assumption that there is a maximum
>size of ship that can be sent through jump space at each TL.
>
>Start at 1000 tons at TL 9 and work your way up to TL 15 (CT).
>
>That's the first rule.  You go next.


LOL!   :->

Umm, okay.

Canonically, the largest possible starship is 1,000,000 under CT LBB 5, and 
TL does not limit hull size itself.  Theoretical jump drive capacity goes 
to jump-2 at TL 11, then increases by one jump number for each TL increase 
after that.  TLs beyond TL 15 are still capped at jump-6 capacity.

You gave the largest standard-sized hull according to LBB 2 as the maximum 
size that be sent through jump space at TL 9.  For fun, let's give the 
largest hull that can be built in LBB 2 as the TL 10 limit.  That's 5,000 tons.

If it isn't rude, I'll skip ahead (may be more pleasantly viewed with 
fixed-width font):
TL 9     1,000 tons
TL 10    5,000 tons
TL 11   10,000 tons
TL 12   50,000 tons
TL 13  100,000 tons
TL 14  500,000 tons
TL 15  One million tons

This may confer additional large battle advantages in TCS to the side with 
a TL advantage.  Probably only small advantages at TL 12+.  Just so long as 
you can include a powerful spinal mount weapon, that should keep you in the 
running even if your opponent has a somewhat better spinal mount 
weapon.  Try to outnumber your enemy if you can't outclass him.

The larger ships will also have an armor advantage.  Reasonable people 
disagree over how significant armor is in TCS situations.

Only higher tech levels will be capable of using large planetoid hulls.

Let's see, the Imperial-average TL is 12.  If we assume that a significant 
number of Imperial naval vessels will be built and maintained at TL 12 
facilities, then the largest hull that they will be able to use for a 
starship is 50,000 tons.  50,000 tons times 13.5 meters^3 per ton means a 
volume of 675,000 cubic meters.  Which would mean a borg-like cube about 87 
meters per dimension.  Or a thousand meters long, by 27 meters high by 25 
meters wide.

A planetoid hull can use only 60,000 tons and the rest is "wasted" on 
structural integrity.  A buffered planetoid hull "wastes" 35%, so it would 
only be able to use 39,000 tons of its volume for ship components, cargo, 
and fuel.

Caveat:  I was going by first edition of LBB 5 - High Guard.  Second 
edition might have different numbers for hulls and jump capacities, but I 
doubt it.

Also, it bothers me that I'm adding another rule/table to keep track of 
during ship design.

Now for the thorny part.  What does one have to do to a ship to get it's 
full jump capability out of it?  Roll dice?  Spend more per ton of jump 
drive?  Install fancy computers?  Other?  And the details of implementing 
that.  Can the jump capability decline over time even though it has not 
been battle damaged and is being properly maintained?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:43:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:43:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS That's just nasty...
Message-ID: <200204030443.DFV01354@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hughes, Michael" says
>Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS That's just nasty...  
>To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
>
>I would think being on Highway patrol/Ambulance would be 
>messed up. I remember stats about suicides/depression 
>amongst crews that regularly attend road accidents being 
>statistically aberrant (something like double their
>less highway inclined colleagues). I think the some Police 
>Services in Oz roster members on attending road deaths for 
>like only a month a year because of this. 
>
"The Night Rider.  Remember him when you look up into the 
night sky..."
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:10:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:10:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <200204030510.DFV03007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning <laning@wizard.net>  
<snip size limits>

I think that limiting people to smaller ships really gives us 
the "small ship" Traveller.  So...

>
>Now for the thorny part.  What does one have to do to a ship 
>to get it's full jump capability out of it? 

For the first ten jumps (shakedown), roll 10+ to achieve the 
design jump rating, DM Average Engineering Skill Level of 
crew, maximum DM 4.  You must use refined fuel for these 
calibration jumps.  Failure results in a jump reduced by 1 
parsec per point failed.  This means that shipyards have to 
have rescue/refuelling ships ready to save shakedown failures.

Average the performance over the shakedown, and round up.  
This is the true Jump rating.  Note that in some cases, the 
military will not accept delivery of a ship that takes enough 
fuel for Jump-4 to only do a Jump-3.

Straight rule -- ships displacing 5000 tons or less roll for 
shakedown on a 6+, not 10+. 

Remedy:  Replace the jump drives.  See how expensive this is 
getting?

>Can the jump capability decline over time even though it has 
>not been battle damaged and is being properly maintained?
>

On the misjump roll, in addition to CT DMs
-1 DM for every 10 years of drive age.
-1 DM for every hit on the Jump drives if repaired
-2 DM for every hit on the Jump drives not repaired (running 
with battle damage)
-1 DM for every prior slight or minor misjump, even if 
repaired.
-4 DM for every prior major misjump (after repairs)
-1 DM if drive is not performing to design.

Misjump itself is not just "randomly trip to nowhere".

I see slight, minor, major, and catastrophic misjumps.

Fail misjump roll by 
1 = slight, ship misses destination by 1D6 x 0.1 parsec
2 = minor, same as jumping short during shakedown
3 = major, same as standard misjump
5 = catastrophic, you never come out of hyperspace

Note that some captains might feel it worth the risk.  Some 
old traders are probably the equivalent of the African Queen.

Replacing jump drives involves recalibration, which means the 
shakedown happens again.

I think that there should be a minimum separation distance 
when using jump drives.  Think of that B5 episode where they 
open a hyperspace portal from a White Star when they already 
were in an open gate.  Two ships too close to each other are 
already shredding space/hyperspace, and that has to have an 
effect.  Might make a good suicide maneuver for a smaller 
destroyer who is trying to kill a battlerider fleeing the 
field.

Additional Misjump DMs
- Jump Rating of Nearby Ship Using Jump Drive (100 km)
- Missile Factor if Nuclear Missiles hit during jump 
initiation

Unlike the so-called "jump flash", I really really like the 
way that going into/out of hyperspace looked in B5.  
Aesthetically pleasing.  Plus, everyone gets some warning 
that a jump point is forming.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 00:14:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <20020403134048.A15012@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402235745.00acdde0@pop.wizard.net>

>I'm sorry, I just don't see how making starships cheap erases all
>these things that factor into making a local culture significantly
>different from others.  More than that, I don't see how inflating the
>cost of inter*planetary* spacecraft adds anything at all to the
>variety within the Imperium, let alone differences outside it.

I don't thing making starships cheap _erases_ all the good and excellent 
factors that you cited from the equation.  But making them expensive does 
_enhance_ the isolation of cultures on different worlds.  I think it is a 
significant difference, and (maybe) arguably enough of a difference that 
prudent game designers wanted to take advantage of it.  I note that Loren 
has been with this game since before the beginning, and also is line editor 
for GT, and you say that jump drive prices in GT appear to be the same as 
in CT.  There may be a reason for that.

As you've already seen, I'm not that afraid of changing things.  I want to 
lower starship costs by a couple of orders of magnitude, mostly because I 
rely on those other good and excellent factors you cited.

I differ over whether interplanetary spacecraft have inflated costs in all 
versions of Traveller except for GT.  Perhaps it seems so to someone coming 
to Traveller first through GURPS Traveller, but bear in mind that GT is the 
fifth major version of Traveller and all four previous versions began with 
and maintained the same approximate price schedules for ship building.

Perhaps GT is deflationary, rather than all other Traveller 
inflationary?  :->  It's a point-of-view thing.  Only with the benefit of 
hindsight and being GT-centric do we come to the view of previous Traveller 
versions as being inflationary.  I have no problem with GT being so 
different on this, it's all a matter of taste.  Not even TNE managed to be 
really hard science, and all other versions even less so.  We're all 
arguing over angels on the head of a pin, really.  How much does it cost to 
build a power plant or a thruster plate?  Whatever I say it does, 
IMTU.  Whatever you say it does, IYTU.  :->

AFAIK, it will never be possible to build thruster plates, so who can say 
their cost.  AFAIK, nobody can say how cheap, safe, easy to operate fusion 
power plants can be made to provide incredibly abundant energy or how they 
would be designed and constructed, so who can say their cost.  Probably, 
there is no way to ever do it.  Put 'em in gumball machines if it makes YTU 
happy, is what I say.  Which should generate at least one good SF short story.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:18:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:18:19 -0800
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
In-Reply-To: <E16s3jE-0001h7-00@pluto2.runbox.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402211746.00ac7870@mail.verizon.net>

Me too!  ;-)

Charles McKnight
res0i3sf@verizon.net



At 03:28 PM 4/1/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Any chance of seeing these?
>
>Beth
>
> > I'd be interested to see this...
> >
> > In days past I used to write such manuals for a live-role-playing game
> > based on 25th century space marines. These included a medical manual, EOD
> > procedures and even the Uniform Code of Military Justice (a guaranteed
> > cure for insommnia!).
> >
> > Hugs and kisses,
> >
> > Mexal,
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:20:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:20:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
In-Reply-To: <200203310432.DAH01551@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402211958.00ab2190@mail.verizon.net>

Hi John,

I'd appreciate an opportunity to look it over.

Thanks!

Charles McKnight
res0i3sf@verizon.net

At 11:32 PM 3/30/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Just finished going through what will be a rather long
>document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units
>in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may
>differ.
>
>But..  I need more input.  I've just moved a current day
>document a fair number of years into the future (out to TL10,
>so far), and I would like to take it a bit further, say TL12.
>
>I am interested in anyone's input concerning what might be
>standard operating procedure (instructions to individual
>soldiers, teams, and platoons).  Some of the detail I have is
>down to the items to carry.
>
>I am especially interested in what might be SOP in regards to
>weapons, employment of specific weapons (such as, "always use
>the plasma gun to break contact").
>
>I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing
>to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages
>so far.
>________________
>Do you think my being stronger and
>faster has anything to do with my
>muscles in this place?...Do you think
>that's air that you are breathing?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:29:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:29:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20402.180059.2g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 02, 2002 06:00:59 PM
Message-ID: <200204030529.g335TAO02739@localhost.uia.net>

Leonard writes:
> Inertial *compensation* exists in Traveller. Inertial
> *suppression/neutralization* is a different matter.

So if you're crusing at 6G, and your inertial conpensators
crap out all of a sudden, watch out :-)

Probably there's some sort of automated cut-off for that
sort of situation, but it's odd that we don't see the floor/wall
field generators or their power usage in any of the design specs.
Then again, we don't see the light bulbs either, so perhaps they're
cheap and energy efficient.

> True inertia neutralization (or suppression) changes F=ma to F=kma
> where k is a constant (or variable) determined by the degree of
> neutralization. 
> 
> In effect, you are changing the inertial mass of the objects in
> question. If this was what was happening in Traveller, then you
> couldn't throw a ball across a compartment. As soon as you quit
> pushing, the air resistance would stop it. 

But the air molecules would also have a lower inertia, so they'd
be easier to sweep aside. In short, since both the air and the ball
are both effected equally by inertial suppression, they'd both behave
normally.

Imagine two balls on a pool table. Now imagine them made out of
styrofoam. Impart one with a given velocity, so it strikes it's
neighbor, and it should react just like a normal pool ball
(particularly if we take away the pool table and put them in
a vacuum... this isn't a cheat, all I'm saying is that the
kinetic energy transfer should result in the exact same outcome
regardless of the degree of inertial neutralization).

But, as you say in a later post, the energy of forces might seem
stronger under inertial suppression. Well, is that really the
case? A change in gravity should produce no difference, as
masses fall at the same speed, all other things being equal.
If I drop a feather in a vacuum, and a drop a rock in a
vacuum, they should both fall at the same speed. So I don't
think that changing inertia should effect how an object behaves
with respect to the gravitational force. What about the weak,
strong, and EM forces?

> Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
> things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects. 

In what way?

> There's also the question as to whether or not gravitational mass and
> inertial mass are the same thing. Last I heard, experiments had shown
> that they were the same to with 1 part in something like 10^12, but
> it's still an *assumption* that they are the same thing.

It may be that both inertia and gravity are linked to the zero
point field and/or space-time curvature. I don't know enough
physics to lend any ideas on the topic, but I can forward you
some articles on it pulled from New Scientist if you'd be
interested in a quick read.

> But assuming that you can live thru the process, then it'd be best to
> ignore all the effects at the sub-molar level (ie molecular and lower).

Can't do this.
 
> This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
> work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
> viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.

Except that your heart would also be of a lower apparent mass.
Instead of thinking of a normal pool ball hitting a styrofoam ball,
think of one styrofoam ball hitting another one. On the molecular
scale, I'm guessing that this would be more akin to what would be
happening. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:40:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:40:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> from "John T. Kwon" at Apr 02, 2002 05:22:44 PM
Message-ID: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>

> One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the 
> price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial 
> cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very 
> much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be 
> possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for 
> mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the 
> fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator 
> runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to 
> ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of 
> the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.

That and a lack of dirt. Actually, with cheap energy (ala fusion),
transportation costs would probably plummet as well. I remember
reading a book of short stories back in high school, and in one
of them, the author posited that nuclear fusion created an era
of plenty where people struggled to be good consumers (comsuming
as much of everything as they could so as to keep the econony
humming along... consuming became an occupation in itself). I
thought the conclusion was rather silly, but the question raised
(what would the world be like with cheap energy?) was certainly
interesting, and it's something which I haven't really seen
explored beyond the most superficial level. What would the
world be like if supply so outstripped demand that the vast
majority of people would no longer have to work. In a way, we're
living it (not meaning to start a flamewar over social policy, but
it's my intuition that welfare recipients today probably live
better than their hard working ancestors of centuries past), but
imagine the trend were extended such that everyone could live
in idle luxury, and only a small percentage of the population
need be employeed. What would that be like? I can't even scratch
the surface of potential ramifications. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:49:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:49:54 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <E16sWO7-0004I7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 02:04:52PM -0800
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16sWO7-0004I7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020402224954.B10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 02:04:52PM -0800, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> > (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> > 
> > 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
> 
> In Jeopardy mode:
> 
> Heretics for 100: Who is Galileo

I should note that the Catholic Church's issues with Galileo were not
his science but rather his theology.  The man took the heliocentric
idea (developed, IIRC, by a Catholic priest) and drew incorrect
theological conclusions therefrom.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Wouldn't you love to fill out _that_ report?  `Company asset #423423 was
lost while fighting the forces of evil.'                   --Chris Adams

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:53:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:53:56 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #372 - 42 msgs
In-Reply-To: <B8CF87E8.342AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 04:08:08PM -0800
References: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402155400.00a4c780@mailhost.efn.org> <B8CF87E8.342AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020402225356.C10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> "When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."

Still more proof that digest mode is a work of the devil...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The power of Satan is as nothing before the might of the Lord, so don't
go getting any ideas.                             --I Abyssinians 20:20

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:03:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:03:11 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:30:25PM -0500
References: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se> <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020402230311.D10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:30:25PM -0500, laning wrote:
>
> I am on both sides of the fence (I'm like Jeremy the Nowhere Man in
> 'Yellow Submarine' or the Scarecrow in 'The Wizard of Oz').  I
> sympathize with Harlan Ellison and others.  I also feel strongly
> that sharing knowledge has less value to the human race if the
> knowledge is only shared with those who can pay for it.  The
> Internet is a great democratizer of knowledge sharing.  (It's more a
> socialist thing than a democracy thing, but it's not generally
> acceptable in the States to express it that way.)

The ideal solution, of course, is for those of a moral bent to produce
their own, superior, IP and publish it openly.  Much like New Riders
do with their books (all, AFAIK, available under an open license) and
the GNU project do with theirs.  As unto the software hoarders, so
unto all IP hoarders.

Incidentally, the Open Content License <http://www.opencontent.org/>
makes provisions for author approval of significantly modified
versions (e.g. some of the nastier forms of fanfic), and for
interested parties to retrieve original versions of the work.

And yes, I release my Traveller code <http://travtrack.sf.net/> under
the GPL.  Thereby putting my money where my mouth is.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ubi non accusator, ibi non judex.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:11:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:11:14 +0100
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
References: <200204030529.g335TAO02739@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <007301c1dad6$5c23ef80$52200050@matt>

Just a though, but wouldn't the inertial compensation in Traveller consist
of using grav plates to create a grav pull of 1G les than the accelleration
on a reciprocal vector?

Assuming decks at right angles to thrust, if you accelerate at 6G create a
5G field in the ceiling... voil, effectively 1G felt by occupants... (other
orientations will require G-Plates to generate G at other angles, but heck,
they are made of Handwavium anyway...)

Or am I getting this completely wrong?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:21:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:21:10 -0700
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402223515.02da9ec0@192.168.0.1>; from eclipse@urbin.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 10:37:18PM -0500
References: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402223515.02da9ec0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020402232110.F10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 10:37:18PM -0500, Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> They already have their own official terrorist wings, ELF & ALF (Earth 
> Liberation Front & Animal Liberation Front) leading the FBI lists.

Who have, incidentally, killed people.  They are not heroes of any
sort or kind, and deserve to be hunted to the ends of the earth.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I have sustained a continual bombardment & cannonade for 24 hours & have
not lost a man.  The enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion,
otherwise the garrison are to be put to the sword if the fort is taken.
I have answered the demand with a cannon shot, and our flag still waves
proudly from the walls.  I shall never surrender nor retreat.
                                         --William B. Travis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:25:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:25:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Information, please:  Kians
Message-ID: <200204030622.g336MGh15548@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
...
>     Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
>kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
>pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
>Cavalry.
>     Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?

  JTAS #9, per the "JTAS Index" from Jim V., posted 1 Mar 2002?

  Grenadier did a mini for `em, too :>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:24:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:24:43 -0700
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>; from jimv@uia.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:40:53PM -0800
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020402232443.G10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:40:53PM -0800, jimv wrote:
>
> In a way, we're living it (not meaning to start a flamewar over
> social policy, but it's my intuition that welfare recipients today
> probably live better than their hard working ancestors of centuries
> past)

Hell, the great majority of the poor in the USA are better off than
the great majority of mankind ever.  Obesity is a greater problem than
starvation.  Most own colour TVs; many own cars.  The poverty of the
American is the wealth of just about anyone at just about any other
time in history.

Not that there are not those who suffer in real poverty, of course.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home and leave us in
peace.  We seek not your counsel, nor your arms.  Crouch down and lick
the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our
country men.                                        --Samuel Adams

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:44:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:44:34 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402225752.027fbae0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <014b01c1dadb$03f89400$52200050@matt>

> Canonically, the largest possible starship is 1,000,000 under CT LBB 5,
and

No, its 1,000,000dton+...

The tonnage listed for a size category is the lower bound, the upper bound
being one dton less than the lower bound of the next size category. For the
1,000,000 dTon category there is no next category, so no upper bound.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:58:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:58:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aliens Among Us
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEGACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

This week in JTAS online is an excellent article that I would like to
recommend to everyone:

Aliens Among Us, by James Maliszewski
Another installment of Travellers' Tales

If you don't subscribe to JTAS online, you should.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:46:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:46:56 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices [long]
References: <200204030510.DFV03007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAAB370.B2E1DE88@premier.net>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> laning <laning@wizard.net>
> <snip size limits>
> 
> I think that limiting people to smaller ships really gives us
> the "small ship" Traveller.  So...
> 
> >
> >Now for the thorny part.  What does one have to do to a ship
> >to get it's full jump capability out of it?
> 
> For the first ten jumps (shakedown), roll 10+ to achieve the
> design jump rating, DM Average Engineering Skill Level of
> crew, maximum DM 4.  You must use refined fuel for these
> calibration jumps.  Failure results in a jump reduced by 1
> parsec per point failed.  This means that shipyards have to
> have rescue/refuelling ships ready to save shakedown failures.
> 
> Average the performance over the shakedown, and round up.
> This is the true Jump rating.  Note that in some cases, the
> military will not accept delivery of a ship that takes enough
> fuel for Jump-4 to only do a Jump-3.

Based on this specification, and assuming an average Engineering skill
of 2 (rather generous, given the large engineer contingents on
cruiser-sized vessels), an AHL-class Fleet Intruder would almost
certainly fail to achieve the designed 5-parsec range.  With an average
Engineering skill of 2, an AHL would require a roll of 8+ per jump, for
10 jumps.  There is a 15/36 (41.67%) chance per jump of meeting spec;
this means that for each calibration jump, there is a 21/36 (58.33%)
chance of failing by at least one point.  The average failure will be by
2 points, and your formula gives no bonus for exceeding the required
roll.  Assuming average results, we can expect there to be four
successful rolls (J-5 for each) and six failed rolls (with an expected
average of J-3).  20 + 18 / 10 gives an expected average performance of
J-3.8 (rounded up to J-4); this is 80% of the design performance of an
AHL-class Fleet Intruder.  Note that ships designed for J-4 will
generally only meet J-3 (75% of spec).

To use a modern analogy: the design speed for a WW II-era
_Cleveland_-class CL (the most numerous cruiser class ever built) was 33
knots.  Given your formula, it would be surprising to find a _Cleveland_
that could do over 26.4 knots (80% of 33 knots).  Further, even if the
first ship, or even the first three ships, of the class made design
speed, each additional example of the class would still be likely to be
limited to 26.4 knots.  The above assumes that a _Cleveland_-class CL is
equivalent to a J-5 ship.  If we assume that a _Cleveland_ is equivalent
to a J-4 vessel, we can conclude that the majority of such ships could
only make 24.75 knots (as opposed to a design speed of 33 knots). 
Clearly, this degree of variation from spec is unacceptable for a
production run of ships.

I would suggest that these rules apply to prototype ships (including the
requirement to replace jump drives [presumably of a slightly different
design]).  Once the bugs have been worked out of a design (i.e., at
least one ship of the class has performed to-spec, and the operational
reports have been forwarded to the designing shipyard), ships of a given
class should receive a positive modifier (I'd suggest +4; with an
average Engineering skill of 2, this gives a failure chance of 1/12 per
jump, with 2/3 of failures being only -1) to each roll; ships built by
yards other than the designing yard would receive an additional -1 until
they had built 1D ships that met jump specifications.  A natural roll of
2 is an automatic failure, regardless of modifiers.  IMPORTANT: **Any
ships begun during development stage of a given class would be treated
as prototypes.**  Given this last stipulation, few designs would go into
series production until the prototype was debugged.  This would serve to
limit the proliferation of new designs during times of crisis.

My suggestions would mean that it would take some effort to work the
bugs out of a prototype.  Few ships would be built of a given class
until the bugs had been worked out, and the designing shipyard would
receive the bulk of orders.

I would also suggest that the building yard must bear 1/2 of the cost to
bring an in-production ship up to spec; the ordering authority would
bear the entire cost to develop a prototype.  Naturally, a new design
proposed by a shipyard (as opposed to a new design requested by a buyer)
would require the designing shipyard to bear the entire cost of
prototype development. Note that, by requiring the ordering authority to
bear at least some of the cost, the ordering authority is encouraged to
use highly-trained crews for development and shakedowns.  This reflects
the "test pilot" mentality of those involved in developing a new class
of ship....
> 
> Straight rule -- ships displacing 5000 tons or less roll for
> shakedown on a 6+, not 10+.

I would use this as the rule for prototype ships of this size;
production models would gain the additional +4 (-1 if built by a yard
other than the designing yard).  This would allow smaller ships to be
developed more quickly and produced more rapidly once developed. 
Obviously, designing new classes of large ships would be much more
costly than designing new classes of smaller vessels.

Amortized ships (i.e., those assigned a "type" designation in CT LBB2 or
Supp7 [Type A/A1 Free Trader, Type A2 Far Trader, Type C Mercenary
Cruiser, Type CE Close Escort, Type J Seeker, Type M Subsidized Liner,
Type R Subsidized Merchant, Type S Scout/Courier, Type T Patrol Cruiser,
Type X Xboat, Type XT Xboat Tender and Type Y Yacht]) would not require
shakedown rolls at all.  Equivalent standard ships published in non-CT
rulesets are considered as amortized.  A design not assigned a "type"
designation would be considered amortized once at least 1000 ships of
that class had been successfully (i.e., to-spec) built in that TU.
> 
> Remedy:  Replace the jump drives.  See how expensive this is
> getting?

Under my approach, this would be common for prototype ships (thus adding
to the development costs), as the best jump drive configuration was
worked out by experience. I would also suggest that jump drive
replacement during development would cost 150% of the normal jump drive
replacement cost (after all, you have to pull the old drive out and
possibly modify the ship to mount the new drive).  Production ships
would rarely need to have drives replaced, as the prototypes would have
already determined the optimal drive configuration for that class;
failures to make spec would thus be considered as resulting from
defective or (in the case of ships built by yards other than the
designing yard) inappropriate jump drives.  Cost in the latter case
would be 125% of normal drive replacement cost.
> 
> >Can the jump capability decline over time even though it has
> >not been battle damaged and is being properly maintained?
> >
> 
> On the misjump roll, in addition to CT DMs
> -1 DM for every 10 years of drive age.
> -1 DM for every hit on the Jump drives if repaired
> -2 DM for every hit on the Jump drives not repaired (running
> with battle damage)
> -1 DM for every prior slight or minor misjump, even if
> repaired.
> -4 DM for every prior major misjump (after repairs)
> -1 DM if drive is not performing to design.

I would allow +1 per ship overhaul (10x cost of annual maintenance, and
requiring 1D/2 months); this bonus can only cancel penalties listed
above.  Replacing the jump drive would cancel all penalties listed above
(but, as noted below, would require recalibration).  Government-owned
vessels would probably undergo overhaul at least every five years
(upgrades would be installed at this time, as applicable).
> 
> Misjump itself is not just "randomly trip to nowhere".
> 
> I see slight, minor, major, and catastrophic misjumps.
> 
> Fail misjump roll by
> 1 = slight, ship misses destination by 1D6 x 0.1 parsec
> 2 = minor, same as jumping short during shakedown
> 3 = major, same as standard misjump
> 5 = catastrophic, you never come out of hyperspace

While I like the idea of this table, I don't altogether care for the
results.  I would suggest that slight and minor misjumps include a
temporal option along with their spatial option.  In other words, the
referee could assign time distortions in lieu of (or along with) the
spatial errors listed above.  After all, missing by .6 parsec can be
even worse than missing by a full parsec; a full-parsec miss could put
the ship in proximity to a different system, while a .6 parsec misjump
guarantees that the ship will be about 2 light-years from any system
(given a 1-parsec hex map).
> 
> Note that some captains might feel it worth the risk.  Some
> old traders are probably the equivalent of the African Queen.
> 
> Replacing jump drives involves recalibration, which means the
> shakedown happens again.

Again, for production-series ships, I would allow the modifiers
suggested above.
> 
<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:15:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:15:49 +1000
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020403181549.A15722@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> imagine the trend were extended such that everyone could live in
> idle luxury, and only a small percentage of the population need be
> employeed. What would that be like?

I suspect that people's idea of "luxury" would then extend to things
that take work to achieve.  If on welfare you can afford a new car
every year, then those who are employed (possibly in a 20-hour working
week) might be able to afford a new *starship* each year.  Or at least
a new *luxury* transport instead of an average model that merely gets
you from A to B in the spartan style of the early 21st century
"luxury" limousines.


I'm more interested in the *next* step: what if nobody needs to work
at all?  That is, what if anything that humans can do, some form of
machines can do just as well without needing humans to tell them how?

Unlike a number of science fiction authors, I am *far* from convinced
that the result would be a utopian society where your every whim could
be satisfied.  Even in the extreme case where you've got a universal
machine capable of doing anything that a human can do, you still need
a *lot* of them to do anything that a society as a whole can do.  Even
in the case where you've got a universal factory, it still needs the
appropriate designs, materials, energy, and time.  At least one of the
first three would probably belong to someone else, and so you've still
got scarcity of some sort.  Chances are that time is also not
unlimited.

In fact, I can imagine that a society with such advanced technology
might simply discount the value of human labour to near-zero.  The
rate of return on invested capital might be quite good, but if you've
got nothing to begin with and can't earn much through work then you're
in a bit of a bind.  You might not starve, but you'll have to acquire
capital via other means if you want to join the set of wealthy people
who actually have stuff other people want.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:05:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:05:54 -0800
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
>
>I'm drawing a blank for "zh" speakers.  Places that are vaguely middle
>eastern or central asian come to mind for some reason, but nothing
specific.

Mandarin has a lot of "zh", but Zdetl is not a tonal language.  Some of the
Slavic languages (Polish comes to mind) have insane consonant strings like
Zdetl.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:05:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:05:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEGBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>
>I find myself in the role of Mr. Movie.  For a pretty nasty story
>along these lines, take a look at the movie "Commando".  Our hero is
>blackmailed into taking on an assassination for the villians, but

"You're a funny man, Smelly.  I like you.  Dat's vhy I kill you lest."
Colonel John Matrix was named Father of the Year by Soldier of Fortune
magazine that year.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:54:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:54:53 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEMAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Like I would guess many peoples did, 
MTU (tm) just grew, accreting layers 
and lumps as bright shiny things 
attracted my eyes.

Well I've decided to do a new one up right.
thinking about what final conditions I want 
then deciding what conditions are needed to 
create them.  

What I want

a distant and non intrusive Imperium, with a 
vaguely libertarian outlook.

a low powered environment, PC's are low level 
players on the galactic scene.

The campaign is on a frontier, a la Spinward
 Marches

book two sized and powered ships are normal
(without necessarily using LBB two starship 
design), economic and physical forces work 
against large ships.

Mil spec toys are rare

Prices and rewards are at a level where 
a party could in game earn enough money to 
make down payment on a used starship and 
then keep up payments.

the interstellar iconology is healthy enough 
that a backwater system is looking at 10 or 
so ships a week (recalling that most ships 
tend to be small)

Mega-corps exist, but are far more important 
along main trade routes and major systems.

Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop 
2 worlds


Conditions

The imperium is interested in external defense, 
surveying and mapping, stable currency, internal 
communications.

Imperial taxes are very low.

Imperial currency is very stable, currency drafts are
excepted Imperium wide.  Local currency is
much less flexible and much less used.  

As an exception to the libertarianism of the Imperium, 
building large (spinal mount sized ) weapons is very 
restricted.  Likewise, brute force invasions of 
neighboring worlds is discouraged.

Most systems military is Coast Guard, National Guard 
level stuff.  They are oriented to stopping raiders 
and internal affairs.  

The Scout service is canon and very important, both 
as a survey operation and a communications office

While they can feed them selves, few systems are fully 
self supporting in other areas, lacks and shortfalls 
are usually obtainable within a susbsector, with smaller 
ships this tends to pump up ship traffic.

Development is concentrated in most cases to the main planet 
in system, the rest is unpatrolled and poorly explored.

Way / refueling stations exist in marginal systems where there 
are no colonies.  These system are very poorly explored, and 
lacking nice places for humans to live.

The average campaign world is TL 12 and are lower end 
population, 5 - 8 (Population is the population living 
in system, on both sides of the of the XT line and 
including permanently stationed troops.  Any fancy 
arrangement is described in the system listing)

High tech and high population world are hubs supporting 
surrounding lower tech and pop worlds.  Trade is usually 
surrounding -- Hub, and Hub -- Hub

Absent local conditions against it, most worlds have 
about a type C space port.  Spaceports have the maintenance 
ability one level higher then their build ability. 

Ships last a long time, absent combat damage and with 
proper maintenance, a 200 year old freighter is still 
functional.

Technology is stable, the rough edges have been 
worn off most standard designs centuries ago.

The Imperium makes public domain standardized plans for 
many thing available.  While local peculiarities exist, 
a surprisingly large number of items are standardized 
imperium wide. (unless of course it is for a plot point)

Pirates exists, not as ECMs but as semi organized groups 
in the fringes of the system.  A lot of time and effort 
of the local navies is spent chasing them down.
________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:34:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:34:26 +0200
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403123426.04d59074.jenry023@student.liu.se>

laning wrote:
> By the way, Jens, have you read Hal Clement's 'Mission of Gravity'?  A 
> great example of intelligent alien life forms evolving on a world
extremely 
> different from Terra.  A just plain extreme world, in fact.  Clement
opens 
> the hood and lets us peer into a lot of the alien building he does.  The

> book's a classic, in fact.

Nope, I haven't. And I doubt that the library has that book in stock. I've
placed it on the list of books to look for now, though.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:49:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:49:22 +1000
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Robots from Dragon/Book 8
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17904@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Hey TMLers,

I recently crunched a remake of the Dragon Article on Robots using elements
from Book 8. I have even done up about 10 or so bots, in the theme of
popular Sci Fi bots (not C3P0 though...) from da movies. Prices are cheaper
generally than Book 8, and there is much hand waving for all you gearheads
out there (so sue me). Skill resolution has been modified to fit my
mechanics but I would think is easier enough to engineer for whatever game
system you use to run Traveller. 

If anyone is interested email me off list

Mikey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:31:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:31:27 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices [long]
Message-ID: <200204031231.DGL00640@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

John Groth says
<snip good rules for prototypes> 

Sounds like a good way to keep the lid on ship size, and 
perhaps even on the total number of ships.

I am also wondering:  there are more than a few nations that 
could probably "afford" to build an aircraft carrier, but 
many of them don't, or are retiring those that they have.  I 
think that the costs of maintenance for larger ships is more 
significant than for a smaller ship.  

Any ideas on how to make the larger ship more expensive to 
maintain?  The USS Kennedy is a recent case in point.  It can 
still cruise around, but it doesn't take much to make it 
not "mission capable".
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:34:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:34:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] pbem starting
Message-ID: <200204031234.DGL00812@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Now taking players for a pbem set in the Corridor area.
CT rules, with some modifications.
If you are interested, please e-mail jtkwon@jtkgroup.com.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:12:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 08:12:11 -0500
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403080940.027e7b68@192.168.0.1>

At 09:40 PM 4/2/2002 -0800, jimv wrote:
> > One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the
> > price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial
> > cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very
> > much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be
> > possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for
> > mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the
> > fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator
> > runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to
> > ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of
> > the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.

Actually one of the cool things about T4 was a short bit about
how one lived at the poverty line in a TL C society.

Even though they lived very well compared to the poor in a TL 9 (or less) 
society,
you still had Haves and Haves Nots, so there was "Class" friction that could
be exploited.

>That and a lack of dirt. Actually, with cheap energy (ala fusion),
>transportation costs would probably plummet as well. I remember
>reading a book of short stories back in high school, and in one
>of them, the author posited that nuclear fusion created an era
>of plenty where people struggled to be good consumers (comsuming
>as much of everything as they could so as to keep the econony
>humming along... consuming became an occupation in itself). I
>thought the conclusion was rather silly, but the question raised
>(what would the world be like with cheap energy?) was certainly
>interesting, and it's something which I haven't really seen
>explored beyond the most superficial level. What would the
>world be like if supply so outstripped demand that the vast
>majority of people would no longer have to work. In a way, we're
>living it (not meaning to start a flamewar over social policy, but
>it's my intuition that welfare recipients today probably live
>better than their hard working ancestors of centuries past), but
>imagine the trend were extended such that everyone could live
>in idle luxury, and only a small percentage of the population
>need be employeed. What would that be like? I can't even scratch
>the surface of potential ramifications. -Jim
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem
among the poor than starvation. That's something that
would have been science fiction to anybody who grew up
before, say, 1900, or even 1950
-------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:32:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:32:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>
References: <20020402191127.6b66c4f3.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020402201432.444efd17.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Classic Traveller wrote:
> When it is completed I will publish it in PDF. That way it will
definitely
> see print "see print", if it is worth the paper to print it on ;)

No problem. I'll print it at the university for free  ;-)

How much material are you aiming at? What kind?

I imagine TAS could be used as an alternative to the intrigues among the
noble families. After all, the idle rich are always a good source for
strife. Just look at the old-school soap operas (Dallas, Falcon Crest,
etc) out there...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
Message-ID: <E16smpE-0002tC-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

If you listen very carefully at the end of the recording, with the right fi=
ltering you can just hear:
<RECORDING ON>
> PC's on a derelict free trader:
> PC1: "Hmmm, blood everywhere but no bodies"
> PC2: "The only thing on the manifest is penguins, yet
> the cargo bay is empty"
> PC3: "Who would slaughter an entire ships crew for
> penguins?"
> PC2: "They also took the small craft"
> PC1: "Whats that noise?"
> PC3: "What noise?"
> PC1: "Sounded like flapping of some kind"
> PC2: "Lets get back to the ship"
> PC1: "Okay lets go. <speaking into com> Hey Samantha,
> light up the drives where out of here"
> <No response>
> PC1: "Samantha?, do you read?"
> PC2: "Hey wheres Jimmy?"
> PC1: <Spinning around to search for Jimmy> "Jimmy,
> jimmy?"

(soft singing, low voice) Scooby duby do...

> <END RECORDING>
>=20
> James
>=20

Beth


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:42:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:42:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEMAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403103415.00a8a750@pop.wizard.net>

John-Martin describes his new world order Traveller universe.  Which sounds 
awfully like CT when there were still only a few books published.

You may want to go with CT, and a few house rules.  Maintenance capability 
of starports being one higher than construction capability, for 
instance.  Which sounds like a pretty good rule.  Take CT material 
published from Trillion Credit Squadron onwards with a grain of salt, or 
even ignore it.  TCS economics tend to make the Imperium and other stellar 
empires be too omnipresent and powerful for the universe you 
described.  You may be happiest with the Azhanti High Lightning as one of 
the most important warships of its time, or even the Kinunir.  Take Book 5 
- High Guard out of the ship construction rules entirely.  That would limit 
the largest ships to 5,000 tons.  Or use Book 5 only for 
referee-constructed ships.  Although you did say you don't want to use LBB 
2, either.  Sounds like you will need either extensive mods of existing 
rules or to write your own from scratch.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEMAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <20020403155041.62193.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  Please see below for comments......
  >>
--- John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Like I would guess many peoples did, 
> MTU (tm) just grew, accreting layers 
> and lumps as bright shiny things 
> attracted my eyes.
> 
> Well I've decided to do a new one up right.
> thinking about what final conditions I want 
> then deciding what conditions are needed to 
> create them.  
> 
> What I want
> 
> a distant and non intrusive Imperium, with a 
> vaguely libertarian outlook.
> 
  >>
  I'm there.....
  >>
>
> a low powered environment, PC's are low level 
> players on the galactic scene.
> 
> The campaign is on a frontier, a la Spinward
>  Marches
>
  >>
  Kewl-ness......
  >>
> 
> book two sized and powered ships are normal
> (without necessarily using LBB two starship 
> design), economic and physical forces work 
> against large ships.
>
  >>
  Very cool....
  >>
> 
> Mil spec toys are rare
>
  >>
  Hmmm, verging on uh-oh....
  >>
> 
> Prices and rewards are at a level where 
> a party could in game earn enough money to 
> make down payment on a used starship and 
> then keep up payments.
>
  >>
  Given that the starship economy of Book 2
essentially encourages charactors to skip on their
creditors, I'm SO there....
  >>
>
> the interstellar iconology is healthy enough 
> that a backwater system is looking at 10 or 
> so ships a week (recalling that most ships 
> tend to be small)
>
  >>
  See the 'coda' below under 'Conditions'....
  >>
> 
> Mega-corps exist, but are far more important 
> along main trade routes and major systems.
>
  >>
  OK...but you're hamstringing a good plot device...
  >>
> 
> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop 
> 2 worlds
>
  >>
  .....YES!!!FINALLY!!!..... 
  >>
>
> 
> Conditions
> 
> The imperium is interested in external defense, 
> surveying and mapping, stable currency, internal 
> communications.
> 
> Imperial taxes are very low.
> 
> Imperial currency is very stable, currency drafts
> are
> excepted Imperium wide.  Local currency is
> much less flexible and much less used.  
> 
> As an exception to the libertarianism of the
> Imperium, 
> building large (spinal mount sized ) weapons is very
> restricted.  Likewise, brute force invasions of 
> neighboring worlds is discouraged.
> 
  >>
  The above points are already extant in the 3I,
IIRC......
  >>
>
> Most systems military is Coast Guard, National Guard
> level stuff.  They are oriented to stopping raiders 
> and internal affairs.  
>
  >>
  That's how I've always viewed planetary forces...
  >>
> 
> The Scout service is canon and very important, both 
> as a survey operation and a communications office
>
  >>
  No worries here....
  >>
> 
> While they can feed them selves, few systems are
> fully  self supporting in other areas, lacks and 
> shortfalls are usually obtainable within a 
> susbsector, with smaller ships this tends to pump up
> ship traffic.
> 
> Development is concentrated in most cases to the
> main planet 
> in system, the rest is unpatrolled and poorly
> explored.
> 
  >>
  CODA: Why? At the level of shipping you're talking
about, the only way to ship useful quantities of
product is by BIG carriers(e.g., LASH-type
freighters). 

  It's a lot more economical for a system government
to either encourage or subsidize[sp?] outer system
developement, either by gov't contractors or
(preferably) by 'native' belter-type operator's.
  >>
>
> Way / refueling stations exist in marginal systems
> where there 
> are no colonies.  These system are very poorly
> explored, and 
> lacking nice places for humans to live.
>
  >>
  Who pays for this? The only way to make it
economical enough to be of commercial utility (vs
skimming) is to lower the cost of the fuel provided by
the station's. If they (the ship-driver's) are charged
'market rates', the cost of this fuel will drive up
shipping costs to the point where merchants and
consumers at the recieving end won't be willing to
pay.

  See 'CODA'....
  >>
>
> The average campaign world is TL 12 and are lower
> end 
> population, 5 - 8 (Population is the population
> living 
> in system, on both sides of the of the XT line and 
> including permanently stationed troops.  Any fancy 
> arrangement is described in the system listing)
>
  >>
  Why so low?
  >>
> 
> High tech and high population world are hubs
> supporting 
> surrounding lower tech and pop worlds.  Trade is
> usually 
> surrounding -- Hub, and Hub -- Hub
> 
  >>
  That's how it usually runs.....
  >>
>
> Absent local conditions against it, most worlds have
> about a type C space port.  Spaceports have the
> maintenance 
> ability one level higher then their build ability. 
>
  >>
  This has always been my biggest saw about starports
in Trav: Why are there so many 'D' and 'E' class
ports? With a comparitivley small amount of time and
money, upgrading to at least 'C-' is a pretty small
chore......
  >>
>
> Ships last a long time, absent combat damage and
> with 
> proper maintenance, a 200 year old freighter is
> still 
> functional.
>
  >>
  That's how I always saw these ships....
  >>
> 
> Technology is stable, the rough edges have been 
> worn off most standard designs centuries ago.
> 
> The Imperium makes public domain standardized plans
> for 
> many thing available.  While local peculiarities
> exist, 
> a surprisingly large number of items are
> standardized 
> imperium wide. (unless of course it is for a plot
> point)
> 
  >>
  I'm OK with the stability part. Isn't there
something in GT about a standardised set of plans?
  >>
>
> Pirates exists, not as ECMs but as semi organized
> groups 
> in the fringes of the system.  A lot of time and
> effort 
> of the local navies is spent chasing them down.
> 
  >>
  Of course.
  >>
> 
> jml
> 
  >>
  MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
Message-ID: <200204031552.DGR04348@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Beth" says
>> PC3: "Who would slaughter an entire ships crew for
>> penguins?"

Penguins is practically chickens.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 08:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] inheritance Imperial style
Message-ID: <200204031616.DGS00004@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Was just looking at various types of inheritance in history, 
and two were contrasted.  Gavelkind, where all sons share in 
the inheritance equally, and primogeniture, where only the 
eldest gets the goods.

Apparently a driving force behind land acquisition, and when 
the land ran out, the seizure of land from others, was 
primogeniture.  It also provided knights for the Crusade.

"A noble class dependent for its power and position upon the 
possession of land - or, to be more accurate, it's right to 
collect taxes and services from the residents of the land - 
had emerged over the previous century, and the population of 
that hereditary class was growing. As long as the Frankish 
monarchs had continued conquering new lands, there were 
always new districts to distribute to the nobility. Now that 
expansion had ceased, however, the nobles began to suffer 
from "land-hunger" and began to evolve into something 
different from what the had originally been. They took 
complete control of the lands they had been appointed to 
govern in the offices of count, duke, and margrave and to 
treat them as personal possessions. They began to demand 
payment in land for helping one or the other side in the 
incessant civil wars. When the Carolingian monarchs no longer 
had royal lands to give in exchange for support, the fighting 
nobles took over the lands of the churches and the 
monasteries that the central government - such as it was - 
could no longer protect. Even so, they could not continue 
dividing their lands into smaller and smaller pieces. During 
the course of the ninth and early tenth centuries, in a 
process that can be discerned only dimly, the aristocracy of 
western Europe abandoned the deeply-rooted custom of 
gavelkind and replaced it with primogeniture ("first-born"), 
a system in which the core of a family's lands was kept 
intact and passed automatically to the eldest son. In this 
fashion, the empire was shattered into hundreds of 
practically independent districts, each owned and ruled by a 
local strong man in command of a small body of fighting men 
and a castle.

Such a state cannot maintain a navy, so the remnants of the 
Carolingian empire were easy pickings for sea-borne raiders 
from Scandinavia (the Vikings) and from North Africa (the 
Saracens), as well as mounted raiders from central Asia (the 
Magyars, or Hungarians)."

Given the nature of our maps in Traveller, could an 
empire "run out of land"?  Could the current empire be 
described as "hundreds of independent districts, each owned 
and rules by a local strong man (or government) in command of 
a small body of fighting men and a castle (a small army, 
navy, and starbases)"?

I don't think I need the Virus to have the empire fall into 
another Long Night. Piracy at that point might be any ship 
with a weapon.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Wed Apr  3 08:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller PBeMs
In-Reply-To: <B8CF3437.341C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CABA198.12635.5425D9@localhost>

I just started in one, but I'm not the GM.  The GM is Charlotte 
Manton <Charlotte.Manton@btopenworld.com>, and she said 
she's definitely willing to accept new players.  I don't think the 
game has a web page yet, though, so ask her if you have 
questions.

-- Rachel Kronick
.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Wed Apr  3 08:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <F306Upm0RnzXotJAadV00014e0d@hotmail.com>

David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>On rule of thumb in security is that the hard you make it for
>unwarranted intrusion, the harder you make it for authorized people

A corralary to this: the harder you make it for authorized
people, the more likely it is that the authorized people will
disable the security.  If all your passwords are twenty-character
random alphanumeric strings, expect to see sticky notes with the
passwords written on them stuck everywhere the passwords will
be used.  If that retinal scanner makes the crew sit through
three or four rescans before it lets them in, or mistakes them
for a terrorist a couple times a week, expect the retinal scanner
to be bypassed before the ship comes out of its first jump.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:06:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:06:11 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CAB365A.5070001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>or look up flux compressors 
>>
>>The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures 
>>I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius 
>>kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.
>>
>>Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find
>>anything.  OK, I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite
>>terrorist building these? --
> 
> 
> That's a very good question.  I've read speculation that they may 
> have been used in some places, but I'd think the evidence would be 
> pretty obvious (lots of fried computers).  At that point, I'm guessing 
> that most terrorists want to see blood far more than lost data.

There is speculation that they have been used, but in the commission of 
crimes. (good way to whack alarm systems.)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:07:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:07:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <ba.23b5ccdc.29dc9067@aol.com>

--part1_ba.23b5ccdc.29dc9067_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 02/04/02 20:00:27 GMT Daylight Time, thing@moonwise.com 
writes:


> > Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs
> > starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're
> > borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.
> >
> > The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not
> to
> > let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can
> probably
> > see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information
> than
> > you wish to give out.
> 
> Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
> intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low 
> power
> biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.  If the
> security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
> vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
> other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.

Actually I was thinking of MRI or sound based scanning systems. Plus the 
ability of a device to scan through a visor in a variety of EM spectrums and 
actually see what its looking at.

Its not necessarily eay to fool the system if it "knows" the vacc suit or 
expects the operator to use a code to validate the data. I'm not saying that 
biometric data alone will be used - I agree that that would be overly simple 
and easy to defeat. I would expect at least a dual system of biometrics and 
code or key (or both). 

> 
> > If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems
> for
> > opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a 
> glitch
> > then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to
> a
> > specialist lock-smith.
> 
> If there is a mechanical system for opening the door than it comes down to
> cutting the power to the doors locking mechanism so that you can operate 
> the
> manual.  This usually wouldn't be too difficult.
> 
> G.D.D.
> 
It's not too difficult to conceive of a lockout that knows the difference 
between a power failure and a someone cutting the supply to the locks 
mechanism. It may be as simple as having a number of different sensors 
located around the door. A person wishing to cut the power *only* to the 
doors mechanism must therefore be able to, effectively, remove the door from 
its setting. If they can do that then a lock isn't going to stop them getting 
in :).

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_ba.23b5ccdc.29dc9067_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 20:00:27 GMT Daylight Time, thing@moonwise.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs<BR>
&gt; starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're<BR>
&gt; borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not<BR>
to<BR>
&gt; let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can<BR>
probably<BR>
&gt; see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information<BR>
than<BR>
&gt; you wish to give out.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low<BR>
intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power<BR>
biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.&nbsp; If the<BR>
security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like<BR>
vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most<BR>
other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Actually I was thinking of MRI or sound based scanning systems. Plus the ability of a device to scan through a visor in a variety of EM spectrums and actually see what its looking at.<BR>
<BR>
Its not necessarily eay to fool the system if it "knows" the vacc suit or expects the operator to use a code to validate the data. I'm not saying that biometric data alone will be used - I agree that that would be overly simple and easy to defeat. I would expect at least a dual system of biometrics and code or key (or both). </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
&gt; If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems<BR>
for<BR>
&gt; opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch<BR>
&gt; then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to<BR>
a<BR>
&gt; specialist lock-smith.<BR>
<BR>
If there is a mechanical system for opening the door than it comes down to<BR>
cutting the power to the doors locking mechanism so that you can operate the<BR>
manual.&nbsp; This usually wouldn't be too difficult.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
It's not too difficult to conceive of a lockout that knows the difference between a power failure and a someone cutting the supply to the locks mechanism. It may be as simple as having a number of different sensors located around the door. A person wishing to cut the power *only* to the doors mechanism must therefore be able to, effectively, remove the door from its setting. If they can do that then a lock isn't going to stop them getting in :).<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_ba.23b5ccdc.29dc9067_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204030510.DFV03007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017853751.1367.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> laning <laning@wizard.net>  
> <snip size limits>
> 
> I think that limiting people to smaller ships really gives us 
> the "small ship" Traveller.

Unfortunately, it gives us the '50,000 small ships' traveller, which is in fact
worse for roleplaying than the '500 big ships' traveller.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215009.0283aec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017853921.54.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> Leonard Erickson, in replying to JimV said:
> 
> >BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
> >higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
> >artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
> >playing "grav pong" with hijackers.
> Sounds like we see it the same way.  Although +6 gees to -6 gees in less 
> than one second should be sufficient grav pong to deal with most hijackers.

I prefer to see grav compensation as being a side effect of the drives, which
means grav pong is impossible (well, artificial gravity can still be used, but
one can easily claim that it takes a while to cycle).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se> <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CAB3843.2060604@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
>>reprinted in various places.
> 
> 
> I Google'd around, but all I could find was webpages mentioning it. It
> would seem that it is available in various paper reprints, but not on the
> web. Sad...


I have at least one of them at home. If it's easily accessible, I'll dig 
it out and see what's there.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (long) Re: inheritance Imperial style
In-Reply-To: <200204031616.DGS00004@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403112658.025000c0@pop.wizard.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
>Was just looking at various types of inheritance in history,
>and two were contrasted.  Gavelkind, where all sons share in
>the inheritance equally, and primogeniture, where only the
>eldest gets the goods.
>
>Apparently a driving force behind land acquisition, and when
>the land ran out, the seizure of land from others, was
>primogeniture.  It also provided knights for the Crusade.
IIRC, the Albigensian Crusade was the first Crusade.  It is probably most 
famous nowadays for providing us with the motto, "Kill them all, God will 
know his own."  People nowadays usually say 'sort them out' instead of 
'know his own', but it amounts to the same thing.

The reason for the famous quote was that the clergy accompanying the French 
knights were dismayed when they saw the French indiscriminately killing 
Albigensians who were quite possibly Christian.  Or even obviously 
Christian.  The French were largely motivated by wanting to take the land 
from their Albigensian neighbors, and the blessing from the Pope was merely 
the thinnest of rationalizations for their actions.  Once they were in the 
heat of action, they were even less concerned about needing a rationalization.

<<<snippage of a interesting passage too long to bear repeating>>>
>Given the nature of our maps in Traveller, could an
>empire "run out of land"?  Could the current empire be
>described as "hundreds of independent districts, each owned
>and rules by a local strong man (or government) in command of
>a small body of fighting men and a castle (a small army,
>navy, and starbases)"?
>
>I don't think I need the Virus to have the empire fall into
>another Long Night. Piracy at that point might be any ship
>with a weapon.

I agree that the threat of another Long Night exists without having to 
resort to a gross deus ex machina like the Virus.  (And I do mean 
gross.)  But most land within the Imperium belongs to the local 
government.  The Imperium only holds legal sway over the space between the 
stars and planets.  The Emperor can award fiefs, and they can be inherited, 
but I'm sure they very long ago ran out of land that could thus be owned 
and inherited.

What the Imperium possesses and the late medieval Europeans lacked are a 
sophisticated and robust economic system, and nonhereditary institutions 
(megacorps and the Navy) that share power with the nobility.  This things 
make all the difference.

The existence of much more complex and sophisticated economic mechanisms 
than tenth-century Europeans had means that land inheritance is not the 
main life blood of economics.  Extensive and fairly efficient markets exist 
for virtually everything, and capital is extremely liquid.  Land tends to 
be held by corporations, and if a corporation folds, there are bankruptcy 
regulations to oversee the distribution of assets, which go immediately 
back into the economy instead of being held closely held by one family.

The Emperors and Empresses make a point of retaining ultimate ownership of 
fiefs they award, and they can resume direct control of them at will.  A 
local noble who attempts to resist that will have to contend with a very 
powerful central Navy.  Not even in the case of the excellently written 
LandGrab of Vincennes can locals seriously hope to defy the Emperor, 
because of this powerful Navy.  Nobles jockey for power and influence over 
the Navy, and in times gone by there were even a series of Barracks 
Emperors who seized the iridium throne simply because they thought they 
could get away with it.  The Barracks Emperors each relied on fleets of the 
supposedly central Navy.

The emperors since have learned the lesson and maintain strong control of 
the Navy.  When the civil war following Strephon's assassination resulted 
in the Navy being fractured, that's only because the authors had gone to 
great pains to create the conditions for honest doubt among admirals over 
exactly who had the best legal claim.  Under normal conditions the Navy 
remains loyal to the throne.  The way I understand it, Dulinor's beef with 
Strephon was that he was encouraging sector dukes to become too powerful 
and that would lead to the danger of a breakup or civil war.  Ironically, 
Dulinor precipitated exactly what he said he was trying to 
prevent.  Although I suspect his ego clouded his judgment and his motives 
were less pure than he himself believed.

Power and ownership of assets are divided between the throne, corporations, 
and system governments.  Economic life is diverse, active, and fully 
developed.  The division of power and assets acts somewhat like the famous 
system of checks and balances between the three branches of government in 
the US.  The mature and sophisticated economic life prevents assets from 
becoming concentrated more and more into the hands of an hereditary few 
(unless you take your economics with a lump of Marxism :-) and thus 
becoming a scarcer and scarcer resource with this trend creating conflict 
over the scarcity.

In the absence of outside threat, the greatest danger that persists inside 
the Imperium is in its only major institution that is completely 
hereditary--selecting who sits on the throne.  A series of poor emperors, 
or even just one, could potentially wreak havoc on the other institutions 
that are the main props of the system.

I have demonstrated that the Imperium is held together and fluorishes 
because of its inherently stabilizing structure, and its good fortune to 
have sufficient population and technology and legal institutions that 
promote an economic structure capable of keeping the healthy flow of 
liquidity to all the centers of power within the Imperium.  Not bad, 
considering it's just rationalizing a _very_ fictional science fiction 
backstory that was mostly created as an excuse for roleplaying games that 
visit thousands of different worlds and thus thousands of different science 
fiction stories.  :->

Oh.  The nature of the maps in Traveller.  Megacorps should be falling all 
over themselves to expand into the areas beyond the frontier and either 
create their own puppet empires or bring them into the Imperial fold.  And 
they should be falling all over themselves and fighting each other for 
control and exploitation of resources in the bazillions of neglected 
"backwaters" within Imperial borders.  It should be something like the 
story of the American West from the advent of the railroad through the end 
of the century.  All the canonical indications are that unexploited planets 
tend to remain so for decades and centuries at a time.  That bothers me.  I 
think the original idea was to provide not just Victorians in space, but 
also a version of the wild and woolly frontier that the real Victorians had 
in the American West and to lesser degrees elsewhere around the 
globe.  That was to set the stage for referees to run their own campaigns 
that saw dramatic and interesting changes sweep across the map, with the 
players being part of all that.  As time progressed and more backstory of 
the Imperium was written things became more static.  Probably, the original 
strategic vision was somewhat lost in the tactics of customers clamoring 
for more information about the Imperium and places within the 
Imperium.  Pure speculation of course.  My record on pure speculation is 
less than reliable.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] inheritance Imperial style
References: <200204031616.DGS00004@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB3D63.2000904@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Such a state cannot maintain a navy, so the remnants of the 
> Carolingian empire were easy pickings for sea-borne raiders 
> from Scandinavia (the Vikings) and from North Africa (the 
> Saracens), as well as mounted raiders from central Asia (the 
> Magyars, or Hungarians)."
> 
> Given the nature of our maps in Traveller, could an 
> empire "run out of land"?  Could the current empire be 
> described as "hundreds of independent districts, each owned 
> and rules by a local strong man (or government) in command of 
> a small body of fighting men and a castle (a small army, 
> navy, and starbases)"?
> 
> I don't think I need the Virus to have the empire fall into 
> another Long Night. Piracy at that point might be any ship 
> with a weapon.

You just described the Aslan itahei.

Pirates at that point arent' pirates, but raiders, in the sense that 
they attack planets not other ships, which is an *entirely* different 
kettle of fish.

However, if you defind 'land' as 'someplace where you collect taxes from 
production thereon' The 3I will not run out of land anytime soon.

In addition to the vast number of underpoulated systems, belts, etc, 
'new' land can be constructed at any time, just about anywhere, via 
building space habs.

Building O'Neill-style colonies is cheap in Traveller.

Look at the costs of an asteroid hull, sometime...amazingly cheap.

Then, the scenario you described is amply laid out in 'Hard Times', and 
on one of the mother sources of Traveller, 'Space Vikings' by H. Beam 
Piper.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <3CAB365A.5070001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <B8D08114.346CC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/3/02 9:05 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

> 
> There is speculation that they have been used, but in the commission of
> crimes. (good way to whack alarm systems.)

Aside from theory, has anyone actually tested a device of this kind?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <B8D08114.346CC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB45FC.5060802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 4/3/02 9:05 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:
> 
> 
>>There is speculation that they have been used, but in the commission of
>>crimes. (good way to whack alarm systems.)
> 
> 
> Aside from theory, has anyone actually tested a device of this kind?
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.

I remember reading someone's account of making and setting one off. He 
described stopping clocks and other electrical and electronic devices at 
a range of approx 1/4 mile. IIRC it was rather directional.

I don't, however, remember the reference, whether it was on the web or 
the list.

However, since making a pipe bomb is an integral part of making one of 
these devices, I suspect people are rather circumspect regarding their , 
ahh, experimentation along these lines...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402205809.027d9ba0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CABBC5E.30314.BCBF6D@localhost>

Hi all!

I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists 
Table (UTT), where you roll and a result like "Antagonist turns out 
to be Protagonist's long-lost relative" or "20 drunken goons ambush 
the PC on the way home" or whatever come up.  we could make a 
big UTT with a thousand or so entries so repeats are rare...

-- Rachel


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <182.62a974a.29dca666@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 22:58:51 GMT Daylight Time, 
ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:


> TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.  
> One
> assumes the neutron problems have been solved.
> 

Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing "up" 
to He4 :)

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 22:58:51 GMT Daylight Time, ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.&nbsp; One<BR>
assumes the neutron problems have been solved.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing "up" to He4 :)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_182.62a974a.29dca666_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
References: <182.62a974a.29dca666@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB4D53.2FCA27E3@premier.net>

Charles writes:

> TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.  One
> assumes the neutron problems have been solved.

Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing
"up" to He4 :)

Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
opposed to deuterium or tritium)?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204031846.DGX03548@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Subject: Re: [TML] handy device  
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>
>Aside from theory, has anyone actually tested a device of 
this kind?
>--
There is supposed to be a test facility in New Mexico where 
several of these were fabricated and tested to see if it 
worked.  Not sure, but it might have been Kirtland AFB.

They are testing other types of electromagnetic weapons there.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:48:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:48:35 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <3CAB4D53.2FCA27E3@premier.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017859666.3145.ajackson@ping>

John Groth writes:
> Charles writes:
> 
> > TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to
> > He4.  One assumes the neutron problems have been solved.
> 
> Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing
> "up" to He4 :)
> 
> Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
> opposed to deuterium or tritium)?

No, P-P probably would be phosphorus.  I should have written p-p.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402222929.02df3008@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402222929.02df3008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3cac4775.11204799@post.demon.co.uk>

Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:

>Well...given the 'canon' cold war setup, the Zho would have Russian =
Accents.
[...]
>Your basic heavy handed eastern European accent.

Of course...  The classic "Zhodani Philosophies" article in JTAS 23
can only be read with a really thick fake Russian accent:

"...contrary to what your holographic film directors seem to think, we
smile (and even laugh) as often as Imperials...
"...We are not robots.  Creativity, divergence of opinion, freedom of
expression... we have all of these within the Consulate.  Our
government is not oppressive...[...]  In return, our citizens respect,
obey and freely criticize their rulers (as is their duty)."

Stephen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <53.14a0b708.29dcabc3@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 18:50:46 GMT Daylight Time, 
jenry023@student.liu.se writes:


> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
> function using radically different biochemistries?
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> 

Stanley Schmidts "Aliens and Alien Societies" is reasonably useful. It's 
available from Amazon and there's some intersting stuff floating around out 
on the web

http://library.thinkquest.org/C003763/index.php?page=index&tqskip1=1&
tqtime=0402

Is an example.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 18:50:46 GMT Daylight Time, jenry023@student.liu.se writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might<BR>
function using radically different biochemistries?<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Stanley Schmidts "Aliens and Alien Societies" is reasonably useful. It's available from Amazon and there's some intersting stuff floating around out on the web<BR>
<BR>
http://library.thinkquest.org/C003763/index.php?page=index&amp;tqskip1=1&amp;tqtime=0402<BR>
<BR>
Is an example.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_53.14a0b708.29dcabc3_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <20020403155041.62193.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEOAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

  MACessna wrote
  >>
  Please see below for comments......
  >>
--- John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Like I would guess many peoples did,
> MTU (tm) just grew, accreting layers
> and lumps as bright shiny things
> attracted my eyes.
>
> Well I've decided to do a new one up right.
> thinking about what final conditions I want
> then deciding what conditions are needed to
> create them.
>
> What I want
>
> a distant and non intrusive Imperium, with a
> vaguely libertarian outlook.
>
  >>
  I'm there.....
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

yeppers, I'm an old crack who likes the original CT setting

>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> a low powered environment, PC's are low level
> players on the galactic scene.
>
> The campaign is on a frontier, a la Spinward
>  Marches
>
  >>
  Kewl-ness......
  >>
>
> book two sized and powered ships are normal
> (without necessarily using LBB two starship
> design), economic and physical forces work
> against large ships.
>
  >>
  Very cool....
  >>
>
> Mil spec toys are rare
>
  >>
  Hmmm, verging on uh-oh....
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

People who strap on a PGMP-15 to go to the
'fresher annoy me,  IMTU they'll have to make
do with a shotgun.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Prices and rewards are at a level where
> a party could in game earn enough money to
> make down payment on a used starship and
> then keep up payments.
>
  >>
  Given that the starship economy of Book 2
essentially encourages charactors to skip on their
creditors, I'm SO there....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

traveller space ship, things you ride around
in until you run out of money (this applies to
riding or ownership).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  >>
>
> the interstellar iconology is healthy enough
> that a backwater system is looking at 10 or
> so ships a week (recalling that most ships
> tend to be small)
>
  >>
  See the 'coda' below under 'Conditions'....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
see below coda for my response

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  >>
>
> Mega-corps exist, but are far more important
> along main trade routes and major systems.
>
  >>
  OK...but you're hamstringing a good plot device...
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh they exist elsewhere, just they are less important

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
> 2 worlds
>
  >>
  .....YES!!!FINALLY!!!.....
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
have you ever seen my semi-regular Binges rant?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
> Conditions
>
> The imperium is interested in external defense,
> surveying and mapping, stable currency, internal
> communications.
>
> Imperial taxes are very low.
>
> Imperial currency is very stable, currency drafts
> are
> excepted Imperium wide.  Local currency is
> much less flexible and much less used.
>
> As an exception to the libertarianism of the
> Imperium,
> building large (spinal mount sized ) weapons is very
> restricted.  Likewise, brute force invasions of
> neighboring worlds is discouraged.
>
  >>
  The above points are already extant in the 3I,
IIRC......
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
yep and that I like ''cept mine is less present, systems
join and stay because of the currency union aspect alone
IFIAK.  That and the party favors given out on Fleet Day.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  >>
>
> Most systems military is Coast Guard, National Guard
> level stuff.  They are oriented to stopping raiders
> and internal affairs.
>
  >>
  That's how I've always viewed planetary forces...
  >>
>
> The Scout service is canon and very important, both
> as a survey operation and a communications office
>
  >>
  No worries here....
  >>
>
> While they can feed them selves, few systems are
> fully  self supporting in other areas, lacks and
> shortfalls are usually obtainable within a
> susbsector, with smaller ships this tends to pump up
> ship traffic.
>
> Development is concentrated in most cases to the
> main planet
> in system, the rest is unpatrolled and poorly
> explored.
>
  >>
  CODA: Why? At the level of shipping you're talking
about, the only way to ship useful quantities of
product is by BIG carriers(e.g., LASH-type
freighters).

  It's a lot more economical for a system government
to either encourage or subsidize[sp?] outer system
developement, either by gov't contractors or
(preferably) by 'native' belter-type operator's.
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In the long run they will develop. This is a frontier,
at this time sales are too small for many markets to
roll the own everything,  Imagine whole subsectors relying
on Yugotech ground cars, -- available in any color you
want as long as it's lime green.  aftermarket add-ons
are probably made locally.

This by the way is a reason for lots of smaller ships.  Dealers
of whatever take orders in small lots from the factory, smaller
tramps do just fine carrying the loads needed.  Think two or
thee car carrier semis scale to the dealership, not a bulk carrier
hauling all those car across the ocean.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Way / refueling stations exist in marginal systems
> where there
> are no colonies.  These system are very poorly
> explored, and
> lacking nice places for humans to live.
>
  >>
  Who pays for this? The only way to make it
economical enough to be of commercial utility (vs
skimming) is to lower the cost of the fuel provided by
the station's. If they (the ship-driver's) are charged
'market rates', the cost of this fuel will drive up
shipping costs to the point where merchants and
consumers at the recieving end won't be willing to
pay.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

They tend to be where classic trav might have a
lo pop lousy living condition planet,  They make
money because a ship saves however much time it
takes to go 100 d for a gas giant, wilderness
refuel, go back to 100 d's and process your fuel.

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  See 'CODA'...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

seperatish issue in my opinion, besides
they are a neat place for Ancient artifacts
to lurk.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
  >>
>
> The average campaign world is TL 12 and are lower
> end
> population, 5 - 8 (Population is the population
> living
> in system, on both sides of the of the XT line and
> including permanently stationed troops.  Any fancy
> arrangement is described in the system listing)
>
  >>
  Why so low?
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
somehow a population in the billion fails to jibe
with my vision of a frontier world, recall that
these are frontier worlds.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> High tech and high population world are hubs
> supporting
> surrounding lower tech and pop worlds.  Trade is
> usually
> surrounding -- Hub, and Hub -- Hub
>
  >>
  That's how it usually runs.....
  >>
>
> Absent local conditions against it, most worlds have
> about a type C space port.  Spaceports have the
> maintenance
> ability one level higher then their build ability.
>
  >>
  This has always been my biggest saw about starports
in Trav: Why are there so many 'D' and 'E' class
ports? With a comparitivley small amount of time and
money, upgrading to at least 'C-' is a pretty small
chore......
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

yep another SRR bait

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Ships last a long time, absent combat damage and
> with
> proper maintenance, a 200 year old freighter is
> still
> functional.
>
  >>
  That's how I always saw these ships....
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I see Jamison's ship as 300 plus years old, his corp. bought it used and
used it hard on speculative runs

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Technology is stable, the rough edges have been
> worn off most standard designs centuries ago.
>
> The Imperium makes public domain standardized plans
> for
> many thing available.  While local peculiarities
> exist,
> a surprisingly large number of items are
> standardized
> imperium wide. (unless of course it is for a plot
> point)
>
  >>
  I'm OK with the stability part. Isn't there
something in GT about a standardised set of plans?
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Spaceport mention something like this I believe.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Pirates exists, not as ECMs but as semi organized
> groups
> in the fringes of the system.  A lot of time and
> effort
> of the local navies is spent chasing them down.
>
  >>
  Of course.
  >>
>
> jml
>
  >>
  MACessna
  >>
>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
Message-ID: <e4.25704b2c.29dcb669@aol.com>

--part1_e4.25704b2c.29dcb669_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stomped on dupe names, got rid of those underscore characters, and
bumped up the pop and tech scores for a dozen or so worlds. See what
this gives us.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

--part1_e4.25704b2c.29dcb669_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; name="aldebaran.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="aldebaran.txt"

Avalon                0106  B767845-A   Ri                     623 So
Banners               0110  B645878-7                          824 So
Threshold             0121  B66735A-9   Lo Ni                  202 So
Carson                0123  B465888-9   Ri                     323 So
Victory               0124  C7955A7-6   Ag Ni                  422 So
Aphrodite             0125  C8B0243-9   De Lo Ni               924 So
Ryerson               0126  E592333-5   Lo Ni                  401 So
Barrens               0127  B241566-B   Ni Po                  224 So
Jewelbox              0128  B857457-C   Ni                     711 So
Ormuz                 0131  E460357-6   De Lo Ni               112 So
923-211               0139  X6B2000-0   Ba Fl                  420 Na
Morgan                0201  A7759BB-D   Hi In                  310 So
Euler                 0202  C21046A-A   Ni                     722 So
Urania                0203  B574755-B   Ag                     901 So
Arrakis               0206  B460858-C   De Ri                  422 So
Hesiod                0207  C56778C-8   Ag Ri                  225 So
Ehlai                 0211  AAC259B-D   Fl Ni                  700 So
Gamma                 0212  B642614-7   Ni Po                  124 So
Chiron                0217  B310788-9   Na                     904 So
Pericles              0220  B457404-C   Ni                     422 So
Omar                  0222  B596578-B N Ag Ni                  223 So
Absalom               0223  A578843-C                          933 So
Jackson               0224  C45367A-8   Ni Po                  325 So
Tau-Tau               0225  B000649-D N As Na Ni               210 So
Manuel                0226  A445788-9   Ag                     323 So
Tudor                 0227  B627599-9   Ni                     324 So
Samarkand             0228  B461766-9   Ri                     214 So
Wunderland            0233  E868443-7   Ni                     833 Na
896-917               0234  E364000-0   Ba                     725 Na
899-491               0235  XAA6000-0   Ba Fl                  123 Na
Hawking               0236  B776553-9   Ag Ni                  723 Na
Tombs                 0301  C310730-A   Na                     202 So
Novy Mir              0302  A96A883-C N Ri Wa                  624 So
Galileo               0304  C100662-9   Na Ni Va               534 So
Samson                0310  B6687B6-7   Ag                     301 So
Ceres                 0312  A677878-A                          422 So
Kant                  0316  B445856-9                          624 So
Elnath                0317  B000766-D N As Na                  533 So
Sultana               0319  B544622-9   Ag Ni                  334 So
Haven                 0325  B658668-8   Ag Ni                  923 So
Spencer               0326  B260337-8   De Lo Ni               714 So
Enterprise            0327  A877663-8   Ag Ni                  722 So
Cascade               0328  B69A730-8   Wa                     434 So
Nelson                0331  A55A799-D   Wa                     923 So
Lammas                0332  B24478A-A   Ag                     922 So
Vixen                 0333  C474225-6   Lo Ni                  122 Na
Shuanyun              0334  CAC0514-C   De Ni                  615 Na
Accident              0340  D371356-6   Lo Ni                  824 Na
Saladin               0412  B353869-A   Po                     113 So
Hadrian               0415  C51465A-8   Ic Ni                  935 So
Nakamura              0418  C10049A-B   Ni Va                  602 So
New Pretoria          0424  B643866-9   Po                     524 So
Pele                  0426  A998534-8   Ag Ni                  410 So
Themis                0428  C9A5168-9   Fl Lo Ni               324 So
Storm                 0431  A897676-B   Ag Ni                  823 So
Gateway               0434  E357413-8   Ni                     510 Na
885-644               0436  E666000-0   Ba                     724 Na
Shah's World          0437  E616100-8   Ic Lo Ni               700 Na
Fortuna               0505  B896856-9                          725 So
Isis                  0508  B696653-A N Ag Ni                  511 So
Tellus                0511  A986976-B N Hi                     704 So
Ozymandias            0512  A7A387A-B   Fl                     703 So
Bismarck              0518  B679845-6                          524 So
Ekaterina             0519  A877789-9   Ag                     500 So
Terminus              0521  B410451-9   Ni                     203 So
Athens                0527  A684958-D   Hi                     824 So
Breslau               0531  A5646AC-8   Ag Ni                  501 So
Taurea                0532  A4569C9-D N Hi                     423 So
893-368               0537  XAB4000-0   Ba Fl                  900 Na
New Lyon              0606  B642998-B   Hi In Po               700 So
Prime                 0608  C8A5656-A   Fl Ni                  600 So
Sun Tzu               0611  A778569-A   Ag Ni                  913 So
Horizon               0615  A541221-A N Lo Ni Po               534 So
Felicity              0617  B5338AD-B   Na Po                  103 So
Plateau               0618  B9D789B-6   Fl                     624 So
Rhodes                0620  A000988-E   As Hi In Na            823 So
Fermat                0624  C5259A9-A   Hi In                  713 So
Provence              0625  A365534-D   Ag Ni                  934 So
Goliath               0631  BA959DC-6   Hi In                  723 So
905-404               0633  X6A0000-0   Ba De                  823 Na
Solitude              0635  B353200-C   Lo Ni Po               424 Na
Euxene                0703  A7979BD-A   Hi In                  823 So
Lyrane                0705  B000734-D N As Na                  503 So
Abaddon               0713  B6A459B-8   Fl Ni                  510 So
Churchill             0720  A655951-E   Hi                     422 So
Sydney                0721  A357789-C N Ag                     503 So
Outpost               0724  A10069C-E   Na Ni Va               804 So
Union                 0725  A424999-E N Hi In                  922 So
Pacifica              0728  A85A424-E   Ni Wa                  703 So
Hadley                0731  B574663-8   Ag Ni                  700 So
Pella                 0732  C300655-B   Na Ni Va               821 So
Harbinger             0735  B220646-C   De Na Ni Po            232 Na
Abydos                0736  D254545-7   Ag Ni                  213 Na
Shaitan               0739  E580131-2   De Lo Ni               700 Na
Farwold               0801  A445645-A   Ag Ni                  525 So
Maharani              0804  B64566A-7   Ag Ni                  535 So
Montrose              0809  A5548AA-8                          800 So
Anjou                 0818  B426985-D   Hi In                  402 So
Nueva Brasilia        0820  A884ACE-C   Hi                     200 So
Caledonia             0821  A797977-D   Hi In                  124 So
Dante                 0822  D8B9201-A   Fl Lo Ni               823 So
Tatiana               0826  B300587-B   Ni Va                  824 So
Daikoku               0829  A8589A7-C   Hi                     723 So
Izanagi               0830  A448973-B N Hi In                  804 So
Musashi               0833  B100558-C   Ni Va                  121 Na
Rhiannon              0835  B785655-A   Ag Ni Ri               522 Na
Babur                 0837  B55447A-B   Ni                     412 Na
Monterey              0907  A110987-E   Hi In Na               321 So
Twilight              0912  A8949A7-9   Hi In                  524 So
Albion                0921  B6569AA-9   Hi                     921 So
Europa                0923  A868AB8-E   Hi                     104 So
Hotei                 0927  A7B3435-D   Fl Ni                  802 So
Yawata                0929  C434879-9                          310 So
Tenjin                0930  A246431-E   Ni                     624 So
892-834               0934  X9B7000-0   Ba Fl                  320 Na
Carthage              0938  C110334-A   Lo Ni                  200 Na
889-056               0939  X411000-0   Ba Ic                  923 Na
Aldebaran             1002  A000752-E   As Na                  734 So
Rowan                 1004  A300589-A   Ni Va                  735 So
Home                  1009  A86699A-E N Hi                     320 So
Virgil                1014  A998855-9                          312 So
Gilead                1015  B433753-B   Na Po                  624 So
Nodens                1016  A210426-A   Ni                     823 So
Albion                1022  A547A7A-C N Hi In                  310 So
Covenant              1023  A696945-E   Hi In                  423 So
Pasquale              1024  A1007CD-C   Na Va                  524 So
Paradox               1036  B256734-9   Ag                     911 Na
923-438               1040  E559000-0   Ba                     910 Na
Marduk                1101  B3519BA-C N Hi Po                  804 So
Bogatyr               1104  A573875-D                          520 So
Pronea                1105  A211656-A   Ic Na Ni               912 So
Romulus               1110  A997500-B   Ag Ni                  523 So
Cahokia               1112  B454789-A   Ag                     222 So
Camelot               1115  A766546-A   Ag Ni                  124 So
Qadesh                1117  B889544-8   Ni                     600 So
Bonita                1118  C757765-3   Ag                     304 So
Tharsis               1119  B425579-C N Ni                     622 So
Pax                   1120  B100676-C   Na Ni Va               810 So
Newmark               1122  AA6A99B-E   Hi Wa                  100 So
Lagrange              1123  B798879-7                          600 So
Ransom                1125  A5507B8-9   De Po                  224 So
Yamato                1128  A878A9C-E N Hi In                  124 So
Serendip              1131  A7586A9-8   Ag Ni                  810 So
Cheyenne              1135  B765644-A   Ag Ni Ri               412 Na
Nix                   1136  C100569-C   Ni Va                  725 Na
Beowulf               1138  D436674-8   Ni                     734 Na
Gwydion               1139  B69778A-A   Ag                     424 Na
Bleak                 1140  C551331-6   Lo Ni Po               723 Na
Kronos                1202  C400333-8   Lo Ni Va               700 So
Atlantis              1204  A85A974-C   Hi Wa                  620 So
Shulaakish            1205  B566898-9   Ri                     500 So
715-306               1207  E8A5000-0   Ba Fl                  424 So
Thalna                1208  B501374-C   Ic Lo Ni Va            233 So
Marava                1210  A787999-E   Hi                     123 So
Ares                  1211  A450983-C   De Hi Po               303 So
Bitter                1212  A324459-E N Ni                     624 So
Daedalus              1213  A759788-D                          424 So
New Sylea             1216  C988686-5   Ag Ni Ri               525 So
Matuya                1217  B210210-9   Lo Ni                  724 So
Bayern                1220  A576836-7                          624 So
Veracruz              1221  A648955-C   Hi In                  602 So
Heimdall              1223  A886A77-E   Hi                     222 So
Wells                 1224  A746784-8   Ag                     720 So
Kensho                1228  C514350-9   Ic Lo Ni               303 So
Kingston              1230  C7A5133-9   Fl Lo Ni               824 So
Laplace               1231  D334320-8   Lo Ni                  513 So
Malory                1236  C691110-8   Lo Ni                  300 Na
Voltaire              1237  A361578-E   Ni                     600 Na
Napoli                1306  A666876-C   Ri                     124 So
Athos                 1310  C6466BD-3   Ag Ni                  834 So
Perdition             1312  A310310-D   Lo Ni                  711 So
Ghazi                 1313  B543225-9   Lo Ni Po               302 So
Plutarch              1314  D100256-A   Lo Ni Va               222 So
Caliburn              1316  B442422-9   Ni Po                  302 So
Salvador              1320  A2219DF-E   Hi In Na Po            100 So
Hanover               1322  B656754-9 N Ag                     521 So
Garibaldi             1325  BA99688-7   Ni                     802 So
Terra Nova            1326  A758AB7-C   Hi                     234 So
Chasm                 1329  CAA559C-A   Fl Ni                  422 So
Teilhard              1330  C432356-E   Lo Ni Po               514 So
Invictus              1331  B767889-7   Ri                     924 So
Stone                 1337  C200566-9   Ni Va                  624 Na
Masada                1338  A78768C-A   Ag Ni Ri               625 Na
Zion                  1404  A7769A8-A   Hi In                  412 So
Bran                  1405  B865858-C   Ri                     733 So
Olympus               1406  A8D5755-E N Fl                     724 So
Megiddo               1414  B101656-C   Ic Na Ni Va            302 So
Sapphire              1415  A86A633-C N Ni Wa                  624 So
Castile               1419  A6545A9-8   Ag Ni                  324 So
Bastion               1420  A00088D-E   As Na                  711 So
Thule                 1424  A52499C-A   Hi In                  622 So
Crossroads            1426  A8C4301-E N Fl Lo Ni               524 So
Diamond               1428  B628775-8                          321 So
920-226               1435  E586000-0   Ba                     123 Na
Myrddin               1437  C442226-7   Lo Ni Po               600 Na
Cain                  1438  D64A5A6-9   Ni Wa                  902 Na
Selene                1502  A200A89-E N Hi In Na Va            112 So
Poe                   1504  C100257-B   Lo Ni Va               224 So
Apotheosis            1506  A5258DC-B                          510 So
Arda                  1509  X7868AE-2                        R 514 So
Stavros               1512  B533444-C   Ni Po                  324 So
Timur                 1513  D571520-3   Ni                     423 So
Amaranth              1518  C465375-9   Lo Ni                  724 So
Tide                  1522  X65A520-3   Ni Wa                R 902 So
Serai                 1525  B4107BA-B   Na                     622 So
Landfall              1527  A896ACB-E   Hi In                  210 So
Bell                  1528  A428551-D   Ni                     621 So
Lakota                1529  B625630-9   Ni                     434 So
Uriel                 1534  C110242-A   Lo Ni                  623 Na
917-244               1537  X500000-0   Ba Va                  425 Na
Woden                 1539  AA76548-9   Ag Ni                  900 Na
Kupala                1540  C765332-5   Lo Ni                  322 Na
Albadawi              1603  A686885-A   Ri                     934 So
Trimurti              1604  A67798C-D   Hi In                  623 So
Jabru                 1605  B300658-D   Na Ni Va               312 So
Shamash               1611  B9A2667-9   Fl Ni                  103 So
Tintanon              1613  B331233-B   Lo Ni Po               223 So
Razana                1614  B856ACC-C   Hi                     202 So
Alamut                1620  B410587-D N Ni                     224 So
Sheol                 1622  B130557-A   De Ni Po               123 So
Tristan               1623  B772741-9                          823 So
Iskander              1624  A684535-9   Ag Ni                  810 So
Xanthus               1627  B535436-9   Ni                     100 So
Desolation            1629  A6A0620-9   De Ni                  920 So
Kinnison              1636  B411652-B   Ic Na Ni               725 Na
Arcadia               1702  A56678B-B   Ag Ri                  204 So
Dar al-Islam          1703  B979A87-B   Hi In                  123 So
Veldt                 1708  X46397B-3   Hi                   R 835 So
Pugu                  1709  A300768-B   Na Va                  624 So
Inverness             1710  B342566-A   Ni Po                  322 So
Sparta                1711  A2306AC-A N De Na Ni Po            203 So
Verda                 1712  B300622-9   Na Ni Va               834 So
Iolanthe              1722  E478575-5   Ag Ni                  600 So
Indra                 1725  B225643-B   Ni                     111 So
Deseret               1727  B574A7B-A   Hi In                  112 So
Columbia              1728  B446677-B   Ag Ni                  635 So
Telluride             1730  A232A99-E N Hi Na Po               234 So
Arizona               1731  E460652-3   De Ni Ri               224 So
Clarke                1735  C99A636-7   Ni Wa                  100 Na
Merope                1739  E110102-9   Lo Ni                  523 Na
Lisbon                1740  C576444-8   Ni                     300 Na
Altai                 1802  A552876-8   Po                     921 So
Firebird              1804  C575775-7   Ag                     425 So
Brisbane              1806  A8A4400-D   Fl Ni                  223 So
Gizeh                 1810  C553786-5   Po                     204 So
Concord               1818  B5637AA-8                          624 So
Bastet                1819  A330787-A   De Na Po               624 So
Rajastan              1824  C756769-8   Ag                     313 So
Franklin              1829  A8899BB-A   Hi                     610 So
New Nairobi           1830  A3307BC-A   De Na Po               723 So
890-218               1833  X100000-0   Ba Va                  100 Na
Nantucket             1835  C97A210-D   Lo Ni Wa               803 Na
Destiny               1837  D878202-5   Lo Ni                  824 Na
954-490               1839  X8C0000-0   Ba De                  923 Na
Batavia               1902  A9A389B-C N Fl                     924 So
Benedict              1909  A697888-A                          324 So
Malabar               1910  A635567-B   Ni                     803 So
Lorelei               1917  A779457-D   Ni                     924 So
Alilat                1918  B669553-D   Ni                     514 So
Hardship              1919  C5A5312-A   Fl Lo Ni               523 So
Chandra               1924  A310443-E   Ni                     434 So
Pandora               1927  A645ABA-E N Hi In                  200 So
Fraser                1929  B642510-B   Ni Po                  314 So
Kalahari              1935  A460654-B   De Ni Ri               223 Na
918-323               1936  X222000-0   Ba Po                  824 Na
921-997               1937  X8A7000-0   Ba Fl                  810 Na
Damnation             1938  E437435-9   Ni                     521 Na
Plato                 1940  D878220-6   Lo Ni                  324 Na
Muscovy               2002  B876845-A                          124 So
Tesla                 2004  A474A9A-E   Hi In                  204 So
Huaxia                2007  A7789AC-D   Hi In                  325 So
Turing                2010  A34569B-B   Ag Ni                  602 So
Medina                2018  B897887-A N                        724 So
Amida                 2019  C330769-8   De Na Po               934 So
Tagore                2020  A86887A-B   Ri                     224 So
Tormance              2022  AA68AAB-E   Hi                     100 So
Surya                 2023  B997878-B N                        623 So
Mu                    2024  C799498-5   Ni                     900 So
Denali                2027  B539675-8   Ni                     900 So
St. Thomas            2030  B657878-A                          814 So
Pytheas               2035  B5536A9-8   Ni Po                  434 Na
Dis                   2038  E200210-9   Lo Ni Va               411 Na
Baal                  2040  B45048C-9   De Ni Po               422 Na
Kashgar               2102  C534778-8                          110 So
Mictlan               2104  B200404-9   Ni Va                  303 So
Newcastle             2106  B5438BD-8   Po                     713 So
Wovoka                2107  A88A997-E N Hi Wa                  434 So
Memnon                2111  A657655-A   Ag Ni                  821 So
Justinian             2115  C66755A-8   Ag Ni                  902 So
Hector                2116  A200557-D   Ni Va                  314 So
Minos                 2117  X385654-2   Ag Ni Ri             R 223 So
Canyon                2125  BAF5677-7   Fl Ni                  202 So
Refuge                2127  A100A79-E   Hi In Na Va            223 So
Barbary               2128  C6B0622-9   De Ni                  423 So
Armstrong             2132  E110562-9   Ni                     700 So
Scatters              2133  B0008AD-D   As Na                  801 So
890-595               2135  X7C0000-0   Ba De                  300 Na
931-538               2140  E657000-0   Ba                     924 Na
Taliesin              2201  B756833-5                          302 So
Renault               2203  B678755-A   Ag                     133 So
Malta                 2205  A96A877-C N Ri Wa                  101 So
Sabah                 2206  B626755-A                          224 So
Newton                2208  B466945-9   Hi                     222 So
Lucifer               2209  C793432-7   Ni                     100 So
Echo                  2212  A00098A-E N As Hi In Na            533 So
Tecumseh              2213  A777720-C   Ag                     424 So
Tanaroa               2214  C76A563-7   Ni Wa                  902 So
Canaan                2216  A878684-C   Ag Ni                  835 So
Kepler                2218  B000759-B   As Na                  110 So
Rama                  2220  A893678-8   Ni                     323 So
Kashmir               2223  A644976-A   Hi In                  502 So
Faraway               2230  C33568A-9   Ni                     923 So
Wolfe                 2233  A363535-E N Ni                     724 So
911-241               2234  X8A4000-0   Ba Fl                  512 Na
Koshchei              2235  C523212-9   Lo Ni Po               502 Na
Masaya                2239  CAD9356-9   Fl Lo Ni               300 Na
Nzame                 2240  E896233-7   Lo Ni                  104 Na
Temujin               2302  BAB5587-C   Fl Ni                  814 So
Wilkes                2303  D100656-A   Na Ni Va               400 So
Kalmar                2307  A775622-B   Ag Ni                  113 So
Deirdre               2312  X897254-3   Lo Ni                R 101 So
Brilliant             2313  B529999-B   Hi In                  620 So
Anansi                2315  A989451-E   Ni                     324 So
Arjuna                2320  A514652-A   Ic Ni                  504 So
Bharat                2324  A564A9C-E N Hi                     124 So
Touchdown             2339  C8A0301-9   De Lo Ni               723 Na
Ganymede              2340  C410355-B   Lo Ni                  202 Na
Princeton             2403  D412264-7   Ic Lo Ni               122 So
Hermes                2405  B7989BB-9   Hi In                  224 So
Enoch                 2409  B8669B8-A N Hi                     220 So
Paravel               2414  E410157-9   Lo Ni                  910 So
Cybele                2416  A9D899A-A   Fl Hi                  303 So
Guinee                2417  C86A8DF-8   Wa                     300 So
Ariadne               2428  C697667-8   Ag Ni                  201 So
Iona                  2429  A464420-9   Ni                     323 So
Tyre                  2431  A588452-E N Ni                     622 So
Drab                  2432  B430456-B   De Ni Po               602 So
Tintagel              2438  C410201-C   Lo Ni                  913 Na
Sebastos              2502  A566886-B   Ri                     222 So
Locke                 2503  C30077B-A   Na Va                  401 So
Antiquity             2505  A5A2354-E   Fl Lo Ni               300 So
Phaedra               2506  A310855-A   Na                     234 So
Jacaranda             2508  B400678-B   Na Ni Va               924 So
Anderson              2511  A465557-E   Ag Ni                  722 So
Avesta                2512  A62569B-B   Ni                     723 So
Lawrence              2513  B300887-C   Na Va                  703 So
Seraph                2515  C494769-6   Ag                     123 So
Maidan                2517  D200525-9   Ni Va                  124 So
New Hawaii            2518  A67A99A-E   Hi In Wa               514 So
Carnelian             2522  C511438-A   Ic Ni                  134 So
Laomedon              2523  C220387-B   De Lo Ni Po            424 So
Wormwood              2524  C210645-8   Na Ni                  934 So
Jericho               2532  C400465-B   Ni Va                  803 So
936-125               2536  X200000-0   Ba Va                  224 Na
Yama                  2538  C324322-A   Lo Ni                  222 Na
Aztlan                2601  B9898CC-6                          425 So
Helicon               2606  C869773-5   Ri                     113 So
The Realm             2608  A665ADB-C   Hi                     324 So
Ulysses               2613  A75A754-B N Wa                     624 So
Rand                  2614  B322720-8   Na Po                  902 So
Ratri                 2619  C410689-9   Na Ni                  224 So
New Vantage           2620  C9DA477-9   Fl Ni Wa               912 So
Teela                 2621  A444457-C   Ni                     120 So
Coventry              2624  A596687-8   Ag Ni                  424 So
Devaki                2625  A78A7A5-D   Wa                     124 So
Ahriman               2635  B623200-C   Lo Ni Po               834 Na
899-034               2636  X632000-0   Ba Po                  524 Na
Providence            2637  B474424-7   Ni                     925 Na
Amber                 2702  A64699A-E N Hi In                  733 So
Zarathustra           2703  C100858-C   Na Va                  224 So
Arrian                2704  B8B3567-9   Fl Ni                  420 So
Catalunya             2707  B44499C-8   Hi In                  624 So
Aeolus                2708  B766577-6   Ag Ni                  423 So
Botany Bay            2709  B66A944-A N Hi Wa                  220 So
Attica                2717  C325899-9                          525 So
Bazaar                2720  AAB9333-E   Fl Lo Ni               523 So
Saranaki              2722  A41088B-A N Na                     224 So
St. Elias             2726  E220120-9   De Lo Ni Po            610 So
Basilisk              2728  C6737B6-4                          610 So
Outfield              2732  B330323-D   De Lo Ni Po            820 Na
Last Chance           2735  E454253-5   Lo Ni                  923 Na
Bethel                2739  C200200-8   Lo Ni Va               302 Na
Jamshyd               2802  C545566-6   Ag Ni                  523 So
Lynne                 2804  A230556-D   De Ni Po               722 So
Freehold              2806  A654200-B   Lo Ni                  702 So
Tanil                 2813  D696342-6   Lo Ni                  724 So
Buku                  2816  C447688-4   Ag Ni                  900 So
Tyrone                2823  C514543-9   Ic Ni                  734 So
867-853               2824  E410000-0   Ba                     720 So
Gryphon               2825  A984579-B   Ag Ni                  724 So
Manticore             2827  B668513-A   Ag Ni                  624 So
Lilith                2829  E8A6200-8   Fl Lo Ni               225 So
Cyrano                2830  B100201-C N Lo Ni Va               102 So
Libertad              2835  C6598DF-6                          514 Na
Aimend                2836  B685400-A   Ni                     423 Na
Borges                2904  A675922-E   Hi In                  125 So
Paulette              2905  C506385-8   Ic Lo Ni Va            622 So
Alphard               2906  B7A2320-B   Fl Lo Ni               724 So
Kodiak                2907  C876565-5   Ag Ni                  124 So
Ekera                 2912  A400477-B N Ni Va                  120 So
King                  2913  B6B5300-D   Fl Lo Ni               424 So
Hestia                2914  B553553-7   Ni Po                  900 So
Sphinx                2924  B53557B-C   Ni                     824 So
Natal                 2928  D639154-9   Lo Ni                  424 So
Meade                 2932  A200622-B   Na Ni Va               334 Na
941-240               2940  X200000-0   Ba Va                  613 Na
Nesia                 3005  A98A665-9   Ni Ri Wa               623 So
Khemet                3008  CA59984-9   Hi                     723 So
New Salem             3010  B685888-8   Ri                     534 So
Freisen               3019  C687687-4   Ag Ni Ri               912 So
Leviathan             3022  B599525-9   Ni                     123 So
Camlann               3023  B465245-B   Lo Ni                  124 So
Saarinen              3024  C97A565-8   Ni Wa                  422 So
928-749               3025  E210000-0   Ba                     124 So
928-826               3026  E424000-0   Ba                     410 So
Exile                 3028  D88A200-9   Lo Ni Wa               823 So
Xinjiang              3030  B461497-8   Ni                     103 So
Verge                 3034  B55669B-A   Ag Ni                  225 Na
965-736               3036  E57A000-0   Ba Wa                  603 Na
Argos                 3104  A000563-E N As Ni                  914 So
Xanadu                3106  A886444-A   Ni                     922 So
Firdausi              3107  A778ABF-C   Hi In                  224 So
Danaus                3113  D566688-6   Ag Ni Ri               634 So
Oceanus               3115  AA7A411-E   Ni Wa                  900 So
Coburg                3116  C544766-5   Ag                     423 So
Lysander              3118  A000977-D N As Hi In Na            625 So
831-221               3124  E534000-0   Ba                     402 So
Rashnu                3125  C546251-8   Lo Ni                  621 So
Starkad               3126  C898646-4   Ag Ni                  733 So
Theodosius            3131  B7B2321-C   Fl Lo Ni               421 So
944-270               3135  E476000-0   Ba                     913 Na
Etain                 3202  B776777-9   Ag                     522 So
New Beijing           3203  C524632-8   Ni                     110 So
Styx                  3205  B5A0745-9   De                     823 So
Lamia                 3206  C200589-9   Ni Va                  622 So
Freya                 3209  B765AAA-9   Hi                     134 So
Cilicia               3215  C5846A7-5   Ag Ni                  222 So
Faust                 3216  A647410-D   Ni                     524 So
Elysium               3218  B755576-8   Ag Ni                  912 So
856-015               3228  X8C8000-0   Ba Fl                  514 So
Elis                  3233  C5597AE-4                          224 Na
Forward               3234  B524444-C   Ni                     623 Na
--part1_e4.25704b2c.29dcb669_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
Message-ID: <164.b8cd038.29dcb7e0@aol.com>

Oh, bloody hell.

Ignore that, everyone. Was meant for private email.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:33:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:33:44 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
Message-ID: <200204032032.DHB01917@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

JFZeigler@aol.com  says
>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur 
>historian, freelance writer, occasional scribbler of bad 
>poetry

At least you're not a stand-up philosopher.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
Message-ID: <126.e80c5ee.29dcc2a2@aol.com>

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In a message dated 03/04/02 00:50:39 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


> > _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
> > mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
> > reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
> > but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
> > 
> > [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.
> 
> Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are
> interfertile.
> 

Depends on what you mean by "interfertile" some species (including ones with 
differing numbers of chromosomes) can interbreed but not produce fertile 
young.

The horse family is the classic example of this (horse (64 chromosomes) + 
donkey (62 chromosomes) = mule (63 chromosomes)), although interbreeding of 
captive big cats is not uncommon. Interestingly I'm not aware of any great 
ape interbreeding.

If you mean interbreed and produce fertile young there's a question over 
whether most of the subspecies of human could. Genetic drift after three 
hundred thousand years or so of isolation is likely to have had some 
interesting consequences. Genetic engineering of seperated groups by assorted 
Ancients is unlikely to have helped.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:50:39 GMT Daylight Time, webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been<BR>
&gt; mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the<BR>
&gt; reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,<BR>
&gt; but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.<BR>
<BR>
Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are<BR>
interfertile.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Depends on what you mean by "interfertile" some species (including ones with differing numbers of chromosomes) can interbreed but not produce fertile young.<BR>
<BR>
The horse family is the classic example of this (horse (64 chromosomes) + donkey (62 chromosomes) = mule (63 chromosomes)), although interbreeding of captive big cats is not uncommon. Interestingly I'm not aware of any great ape interbreeding.<BR>
<BR>
If you mean interbreed and produce fertile young there's a question over whether most of the subspecies of human could. Genetic drift after three hundred thousand years or so of isolation is likely to have had some interesting consequences. Genetic engineering of seperated groups by assorted Ancients is unlikely to have helped.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_126.e80c5ee.29dcc2a2_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <3CAB69B2.95EE7DA@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>
> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
> 2 worlds
>
  >>
  .....YES!!!FINALLY!!!.....

[I think] John-Martin wrote:
>have you ever seen my semi-regular Binges rant?

Actually, I think I missed it. 

As a representative of a low pop world, I want to hear 
more about this.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <200204032049.DHB04097@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

><snippage>
>> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
>> 2 worlds
>>

I always thought that these were either scientific 
establishments - OR -

Laning's Retirement Palace
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:00:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 13:00:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Questions, questions
Message-ID: <172.62e952a.29dcc73c@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 19:53:37 GMT Daylight Time, 
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:


> > 1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to 
> > remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible
> 
> Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's 
> ridiculous as well. Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens, 
> H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.

Are you sure you mean H. hablis? Evolved circa 2.2 myr ago died out probably 
around 1.5 - 1.6 myr ago AFAIK.

The candidates as far as I see it are H. heidelbergensis, H. neatherthalensis 
or H. erectus. Neanderthals and erectus are both probably poor choices which 
leaves us with H. heidelbergensis, which is logical since heidelbergensis 
used to be known as archaic homo sapiens. 

> 
> A more logical explanation would be that Gramps took H. hablis, geneered 
> the species into H. sap, and re-seeded Terra, as well as Zhodane and 
> Vland (and all the other planets) with the new species.
> 
> Would explain some of the more puzzling aspects of our evolution...
> 
This is almost certainly it since H. heidelbergensis is probably the direct 
ancestor of H. sapiens.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 19:53:37 GMT Daylight Time, johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; 1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to <BR>
&gt; remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible<BR>
<BR>
Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's <BR>
ridiculous as well. Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens, <BR>
H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Are you sure you mean H. hablis? Evolved circa 2.2 myr ago died out probably around 1.5 - 1.6 myr ago AFAIK.<BR>
<BR>
The candidates as far as I see it are H. heidelbergensis, H. neatherthalensis or H. erectus. Neanderthals and erectus are both probably poor choices which leaves us with H. heidelbergensis, which is logical since heidelbergensis used to be known as archaic homo sapiens. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
A more logical explanation would be that Gramps took H. hablis, geneered <BR>
the species into H. sap, and re-seeded Terra, as well as Zhodane and <BR>
Vland (and all the other planets) with the new species.<BR>
<BR>
Would explain some of the more puzzling aspects of our evolution...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
This is almost certainly it since H. heidelbergensis is probably the direct ancestor of H. sapiens.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_172.62e952a.29dcc73c_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 13:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
Message-ID: <175.62e4c55.29dcca53@aol.com>

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In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk 
writes:


> >Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
> >ridiculous as well.
> 
> No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H. 
> erectus_
> and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
> actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
> it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
> showing up as early as that.

H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say 
I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H. 
sapiens back that far. If by archaic H. sapiens you mean H. heidelbergensis 
then you're right.

> 
> But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
> tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In
> the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place
> _H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.

True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are 
descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even 
more arrogant than they already are.

> 
> >Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens,
> >H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.
> 
> _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
> mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
> reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
> but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
> 
> [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.
> 
> 
> Hans
> 

The Solomani Institute of Extraterrestrial Human Studies votes for H. 
heidelbergensis zhodotlas and H. heidelbergensis vlandensis :)

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's<BR>
&gt;ridiculous as well.<BR>
<BR>
No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H. erectus_<BR>
and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That<BR>
actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing<BR>
it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_<BR>
showing up as early as that.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H. sapiens back that far. If by archaic H. sapiens you mean H. heidelbergensis then you're right.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up<BR>
tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In<BR>
the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place<BR>
_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even more arrogant than they already are.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
&gt;Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens,<BR>
&gt;H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.<BR>
<BR>
_H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been<BR>
mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the<BR>
reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,<BR>
but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.<BR>
<BR>
[*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hans<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
The Solomani Institute of Extraterrestrial Human Studies votes for H. heidelbergensis zhodotlas and H. heidelbergensis vlandensis :)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_175.62e4c55.29dcca53_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr  3 13:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <20020402201432.444efd17.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEKEDJAA.tml@downport.com>

All of the news that's fit to print, of course. But ideas already on the
table are posted at http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=40

and yes, poly-tics needs to be woven through the whole organization. For
instance, not just anyone can join the TAS. You must roll to avoid the
blacklist... and who maintains this mysterious list?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

How much material are you aiming at? What kind?

I imagine TAS could be used as an alternative to the intrigues among the
noble families. After all, the idle rich are always a good source for
strife. Just look at the old-school soap operas (Dallas, Falcon Crest,
etc) out there...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Corridor PBEM, or What Happens When You Retire
Message-ID: <200204032215.DHD09409@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

If you're interested and already sent me an e-mail, please re-
confirm by sending me your character. If you are just 
interested, please send me your character.  Please use CT 
LBB, Book4, 5, Scouts, Merchant Prince, or Citizens.

The campaign begins at a beautiful retirement enclave, built 
by a previous band of adventurers who initially made their 
fortune during the Fifth Frontier War.  Various adventurers 
have been attracted to, and joined the enclave in their 
retirement.  The enclave has been a patron to other 
adventurers as well.

More on the enclave and its location in a moment...
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Universal TwistsTable
Message-ID: <20020403.143010.-258599.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

Rachel

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 02:37:18 +0800 "Rachel Kronick"
<rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net> writes:
> Hi all!
> 
> I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists 
> Table (UTT), where you roll and a result like "Antagonist turns out 
> to be Protagonist's long-lost relative" or "20 drunken goons ambush 
> the PC on the way home" or whatever come up.  we could make a 
> big UTT with a thousand or so entries so repeats are rare...
> 
> -- 

Sounds like a great idea, run with it...

I can't think of any at the moment, my brain needs a jump start. Perhaps
posting ideas will inspire others [including myself] to think up a few,
then you could develop the table from the plentiful results, after all,
it was your idea.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <3CABBC5E.30314.BCBF6D@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402205809.027d9ba0@pop.wizard.net>
 <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403173248.02493b60@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:37 AM 4/4/02 +0800, you wrote:
>Hi all!
>
>I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists
>Table (UTT), where you roll and a result like "Antagonist turns out
>to be Protagonist's long-lost relative" or "20 drunken goons ambush
>the PC on the way home" or whatever come up.  we could make a
>big UTT with a thousand or so entries so repeats are rare...
>
>-- Rachel

Good idea, and I applaud and admire it.

The really surprising surprise is more like what I had in mind.  Not "what 
is their true motivation, really?" but "You walk to the mailbox and hear a 
strange click as you open it.  Some sixth sense makes you jump to the 
side.  An explosion plumes out of the mouth of the mailbox, right through 
where you were just standing.  There are nasty-looking steel darts embedded 
very deeply in the tree on the opposite side of the street."  Something 
totally out of the blue.  And you can't use my exploding-mailbox random 
event because you've already written it so you know it _might_ happen.

The best conceptual approach I've devised so far is we help each other out 
by writing random events, posting them via the Internet to each other, and 
then we can each use someone else's random events and some dice or other 
random number generator.  No peeking allowed.

Alternatively, there was the suggested approach of "it's a lot like playing 
chess against yourself".  But only the most scrupulously intellectually 
honest person could really do that up right.  I'd be very tempted to let my 
munchkinness run wild, for instance.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <200204032049.DHB04097@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403174814.0255e1a0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon retorts:
> ><snippage>
> >> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
> >> 2 worlds
>
>I always thought that these were either scientific
>establishments - OR -
>
>Laning's Retirement Palace

Heh.  Nah.  It's nice to think that there might be nearly "unspoiled" 
worlds like that somewhere, but I wouldn't want to live on them.  For one 
thing, the TML would be pretty lacking in activity on a place like that.  I 
need more intellectual activities than can be provided by a population of 
less than 100 sophonts.  You could always posit that those ninety people 
are the ninety most brilliant and knowledgeable people who ever lived, I 
guess.  It's a retirement palace for the best and the brightest.  But then 
you'd have to explain why they let me retire there too!

Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major 
metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a 
twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to ride my 
bicycle around on for training and take different routes each day.  Fifteen 
miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest needs.  Really.  Don't 
forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] heaven and earth
Message-ID: <200204032300.DHF06393@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

does anyone know where I can find a list of known bugs?

also, I wouldn't mind porting this to Smalltalk.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Laning wrote:
Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major 
metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a 
twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to ride my 
bicycle around on for training and take different routes each day.  Fifteen 
miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest needs.  Really.  Don't 
forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.

--Laning



How about this Laning?
http://www.trinityyachts.com/seahawk.htm

The boat's also detailed in the current (April 2002) issue of Yachting.  Drop me
an e-mail if you want me to send you some scans ;)

Jesse
wyrwolff@yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:16:02 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB8CD5.530DEA4@premier.net>


"DeGraff, Jesse" wrote:
> 
> Laning wrote:
> Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major
> metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a
> twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to ride my
> bicycle around on for training and take different routes each day.  Fifteen
> miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest needs.  Really.  Don't
> forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.
> 
> --Laning
> 
> How about this Laning?
> http://www.trinityyachts.com/seahawk.htm
> 
> The boat's also detailed in the current (April 2002) issue of Yachting.  Drop me
> an e-mail if you want me to send you some scans ;)
> 
Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)

Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:

http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEKEDJAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <20020402201432.444efd17.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403181532.02492b50@pop.wizard.net>

>I imagine TAS could be used as an alternative to the intrigues among the
>noble families. After all, the idle rich are always a good source for
>strife. Just look at the old-school soap operas (Dallas, Falcon Crest,
>etc) out there...

True enough.  I live in the suburbs between Washington, D.C. and the 
fox-hunting Virginia countryside where there are dozens of billionaires 
with a B, and the big hunt/horse events are an important part of the social 
calendar for zillionaires from all over the world.  Every time there's a 
murder in Middleburg or something, it shows up as a made-for-TV movie two 
years later.  Like clockwork.  :->

'Dallas' & 'Falcon Crest' are old school soap operas?!  One of us is dating 
ourselves, 'cuz I see something like 'As The World Turns' as old school and 
'Dallas' as a recent fad.  And of course there were the old radio shows 
that were before my time; they actually were sponsored by soap 
companies.  It's all subjective, I guess.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:22:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:22:28 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
In-Reply-To: <3CAB8CD5.530DEA4@premier.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACELDCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

John Groth says
[Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:]

Nice.  But where is the triple laser turret?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:27:02 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" l
 ong)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

That's not a yacht, it's a pocket cruise ship ;)
Jesse


John Groth proclaimed:
Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)

Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:

http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:29:02 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACELDCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3CAB8FE7.32401A30@premier.net>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> John Groth says
> [Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:]
> 
> Nice.  But where is the triple laser turret?

Not mounted.  As _Britannia_ was designed for rapid conversion to a
hospital ship at need, the laws of war forbid mounting of offensive
weapons.

I am given to understand, however, that the 2 3-pdr. saluting guns are
point-defense capable.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] heaven and earth
In-Reply-To: <200204032300.DHF06393@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D0D965.34814%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/3/02 3:00 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> does anyone know where I can find a list of known bugs?
> 
> also, I wouldn't mind porting this to Smalltalk.

Just a word of warning.  I got the source for a possible mac port.  It
written in VB.  There's on source file that's over a meg.  AAARRRGG.

I thought it would be an easy post to the mac using RealBasic.  Boy was I
wrong.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FA@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net>

Jesse DeGraff says:

>How about this Laning?
>http://www.trinityyachts.com/seahawk.htm
>
>The boat's also detailed in the current (April 2002) issue of 
>Yachting.  Drop me
>an e-mail if you want me to send you some scans ;)

Hmm, that's pretty nice.  :->

But it doesn't seem to have a suitable helicopter.  And I'd prefer to have 
a spot more conducive to sunning while cruising slowly or at anchor.  With 
cocktails.  And where's the swimming pool?  Some of the yachts found at the 
link you posted a few weeks back had swimming pools.

Remember, I'm a man of a modest needs, but you can't honestly expect me to 
want for all those basic necessities can you?  :->

I'd pull up one or two yachts from that other site, but the computer where 
my bookmarks live is currently a little under the weather.

I'd really like the yacht to be a sailboat but that plays hell with trying 
to use the helicopter, or even where to keep the car.

--Laning
Sheez, that Trinity yacht has a 38-footer listed as one of its tenders.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FC@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403191641.00a990b0@pop.wizard.net>

>John Groth proclaimed:
>Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)
>
>Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:
>
>http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

Yes, that might be suitable.  A bit old though, don't you think?  And it 
probably needs some pretty extensive remodelling for the helopad and hangar.

Remember, I'm a man of modest needs.

--Laning

PS  Both of those yachts were good fodder for my budding Traveller 
campaign.  I thank you.  I think my wife and I will have fun together 
looking at the online tour of HM Britannia.  :->

I wonder...should the truly luxurious yacht owner carry his own ocean-going 
yacht in the hold of his star yacht?  Captain Nemo probably would.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/3/02 4:14 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Hmm, that's pretty nice.  :->
> 
> But it doesn't seem to have a suitable helicopter.  And I'd prefer to have
> a spot more conducive to sunning while cruising slowly or at anchor.  With
> cocktails.  And where's the swimming pool?  Some of the yachts found at the
> link you posted a few weeks back had swimming pools.
> 
> Remember, I'm a man of a modest needs, but you can't honestly expect me to
> want for all those basic necessities can you?  :->


Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?

http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html

Now that's what I am talking about.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] using heaven and earth
Message-ID: <200204040040.DHJ01676@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod, how hard was it to take the output from h&e (html) and 
turn it into what you have for the spinwardmarches site?

I am thinking of doing the same thing for Corridor.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Suddenly, Blackmoore Heavy Industries (builders of the Acipiter series ships and
others) branches off to wet-ship design.  Pretty impressive when you consider
they're asteroid based ;)
Jesse


Kindest Sophont Laning,
Regarding your RFP for a "modest", helicopter (how quaint!) equipped motoryacht,
are you looking for something in an expedition style yacht
[http://www.yachtworld.com/expeditionyachts/expeditionyachts_3.html], something
classical [http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/], or something a little more
aggressive looking? [http://www.newzealandyachts.com/].

Best Regards,
David Phoenecius
Blackmoore Heavy Industries


-----Original Message-----
From: laning [mailto:laning@wizard.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 4:26 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)



>John Groth proclaimed:
>Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)
>
>Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:
>
>http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

Yes, that might be suitable.  A bit old though, don't you think?  And it 
probably needs some pretty extensive remodelling for the helopad and hangar.

Remember, I'm a man of modest needs.

--Laning

PS  Both of those yachts were good fodder for my budding Traveller 
campaign.  I thank you.  I think my wife and I will have fun together 
looking at the online tour of HM Britannia.  :->

I wonder...should the truly luxurious yacht owner carry his own ocean-going 
yacht in the hold of his star yacht?  Captain Nemo probably would.

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:02:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:02:37 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <20020403.170340.-179719.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

> Laning wrote:
> Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major 
> metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a 
> twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to
> ride my bicycle around on for training and take different routes each
> day.  Fifteen miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest
> needs.  Really. Don't forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.
> 
> --Laning

Why not just take Catalina Island off the Southern California's Long
Beach coast.
Live in Wriggly's mansion, and enslave Avalon harbor. 
They have a small harbor, a private small plane airstrip, a secluded
school for Mercenary training, room for a submarine base, accessible by
sea plane, helicopter, yacht, or small plane, and if you like the
outdoors, a small herd of Bison.

Don't worry about the rattlesnakes, they'll at least warn you before they
strike.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
Message-ID: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission 
times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had 
holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might 
be traded on many worlds.

Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was 
traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on 
that world traded electronically.

You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
to try and offset this sort of risk?

Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017882903.8505.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission 
> times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had 
> holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might 
> be traded on many worlds.
> 
> Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was 
> traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on 
> that world traded electronically.
> 
> You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
> stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
> get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
> to try and offset this sort of risk?

Aside from a broker on Regina who handles the investment for you?  No.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:16:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:16:35 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEKKDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Sort of gives you a reminder of how stock brokers got so powerful. A century
ago you REALLY had to trust your brokerage to do what was in your best
interest.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission
times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had
holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might
be traded on many worlds.

Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was
traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on
that world traded electronically.

You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the
stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to
get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments
to try and offset this sort of risk?

Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
Message-ID: <20020403.173322.-179719.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:08:21 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
> stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
> get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
> to try and offset this sort of risk?
> 
> Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?
>

One would assume that your portfolio in the 57th century would have a lot
more safeguards than todays economic choices and options. Todays brokers
can key in a buy or sell if above or below a certain point. The future
would be so electronic, computerization so A.I. that your entire
portfolio could change, grow, etc, while you're out jumping around the
galaxy. But because of your pre-jump commands to your home computer,
you'd have no worry's at all, in fact if programmed right you'd be making
Credits all the time.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEPKGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

hmmm, 
stock futures? invest in as basket of 
stocks.  put a proportion of your stock 
in mega corps __ if they crash the 
imperium has probably crashed so you 
really don't need to worry ... too much :)

jml
_____________
my other computer runs BSD
and another, Mac OS 9, and 
another NT, and .....
you get the idea

jml
jmlotzn1@pacbell.net
_________________





I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission 
times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had 
holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might 
be traded on many worlds.

Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was 
traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on 
that world traded electronically.

You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
to try and offset this sort of risk?

Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] book two ship building
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEPNGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I've been thinking again,  one potentialy cool thing
to contemplate is that each race can have different types
of standard ship elements.  Aslan optimize for m drive 
speed.  Vagyar ships are optimized as m3 j2 pp 3 ships for 
every default hull, Zho ships have smaller j drives but 
the m drives are bigger and so on, unless it is design to 
run without a PSI aboard in which case both drives are 
too big. Or for instance the Ante Spinward yards has a 
standard hull with a different drive, hull ratio.

much coolness with too much violence the rules.

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:58:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:58:07 2002
Subject: [TML] book two ship building ( minor correction thingee )
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEPNGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEPNGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

errr that should be

much coolness without too much violence the rules.
                  ^^^
________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] book two ship building ( minor correction thingee )
Message-ID: <200204040203.DHL05589@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

John-Martin says
>
>errr that should be
>
>much coolness without too much violence the rules.
>                  ^^^

I don't know. It seems nearly impossible to "really" damage a 
ship in High Guard.  If you compare the amount of damage that 
can be done with, say four triple beam turrets in LBB 2, and 
try that same amount of weaponry in HG, at least I have a 
chance of getting critical hits in LBB 2.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net> <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020404122756.A18722@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?

Come on now, *any* boat can submerge :)

> http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html

... though I must admit the ability to come back up again does have
some appeal.  Interestingly enough, this sub is almost exactly 100
dtons.  Only $78 million, too.  That would be what, 20 MCrImp?  Not
far off the cost of a 100-dton starship :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net> <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020404122756.A18722@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CABBC6C.54730FB0@premier.net>


Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Tod Glenn wrote:
> > Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?
> 
> Come on now, *any* boat can submerge :)
> 
> > http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html
> 
> ... though I must admit the ability to come back up again does have
> some appeal.

To paraphrase the advice a med tech game me several years ago:

Water on the outside, air on the inside.  Any deviation is bad.*

*The actual advice was "The air goes in and out, the blood goes 'round
and 'round.  Any deviation is bad."

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
In-Reply-To: <164.b8cd038.29dcb7e0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CAC67AA.23713.6F6A07@localhost>

On 3 Apr 2002, at 14:54, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:

> Oh, bloody hell.
> 
> Ignore that, everyone. Was meant for private email.

This is not the sector you're looking for, move along.

(Well someone had to say it)

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
Message-ID: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>

Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered 
seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat 
that had not a conventional sail, but basically an 
airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing 
around trying to find information and pictures about 
this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more 
info about this boat or have any links?

Jesse


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Information, please:  Kians
Message-ID: <OFC3572B3F.B36E56CE-ONCA256B91.0013E1A4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Larsen asked:
>Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians

Have a look in my Library Data under "K" - "Kian". There's a whole entry 
on them (sans picture, sorry!), including these CT stats:

Number  Animal Type  Weight  Hits   Armour  Wounds and Weapons 
10-60   Grazer       400 kg  25/10  jack    10 Hooves A9 F4 S3 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Beowulf Down update - Letter of Marque!
Message-ID: <OF41324AB5.DC2907F0-ONCA256B91.0014375C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Got my 'Net access back last night, and to celebrate I uploaded a blank 
Letter of Marque, plus a few filled-in LoM's for the PC's in my campaign.

(I also forgot to mention I added a few new taglines. Oh yeah, and a j-6 
map to the Tavonni RICE Paper. I'll really have to update my "Just 
Detected" page!  ;-).

For the blank one, either go in through "Just Detected", or via Tavonni 
Repair Bays ==> Other Assorted Notes ==> Letter of Marque.

To find the filled-in LoM's, again go thru "Just Detected", or via Tavonni 
Specialities ==> Adifux Inc LIC ==> then the various Letters of Marque.

BTW, did anyone have any comments on my _Robots_ rules fixes?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:59:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:59:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Electronic Copy of MT Ruleset?
Message-ID: <OFA21335D5.ACFFA0F8-ONCA256B91.00154011@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

I asked this a couple of months ago, but got no reply:

        A year or more ago, someone on the TML offered us the MT rules in 
electronic form.

        Marc apparently allows the person to release a limited number of 
copies per year (provided the recipient can show proof-of-purchase).

        Can anyone tell me:
                (a) who the person is;
                (b) how I can get in contact with them; and
                (c) if any copies are available *this* year?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <OF0CB4ECE7.A245C0B1-ONCA256B91.00169DC3@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>> Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
>> opposed to deuterium or tritium)?
>
>No, P-P probably would be phosphorus.  I should have written p-p.

Um, maybe H-H, hydrogen to hydrogen (as opposed to D-D deuterium-to-D, or 
T-T tritium-to T)?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <200204040421.UAA31186@ping.iii.com>

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au writes:

>Dear Folks -
>
>>> Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
>>> opposed to deuterium or tritium)?
>>
>>No, P-P probably would be phosphorus.  I should have written p-p.
>
>Um, maybe H-H, hydrogen to hydrogen (as opposed to D-D deuterium-to-D, or 
>T-T tritium-to T)?

Nope.  H is insufficiently clear, since deuterium and tritium _are_ 
hydrogen.  p for proton.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402080234.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20403.202553.7U7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 03:43 AM 4/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
>>>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...
>>
>>Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug, 
>>your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead 
>>GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is 
>>despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode 
>>of eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.
>>
>>--Laning, Canoneer of God
>
> I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
>
> (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
>
> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

"Eppur, si mouve..." is the original, I believe? 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
References: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <3CABDBEE.7B9724CC@pobox.com>

Check out http://www.windrocket.com/index.html.

WKH

JDEGRAFF@sbcglobal.net wrote:

> Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered
> seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat
> that had not a conventional sail, but basically an
> airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing
> around trying to find information and pictures about
> this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more
> info about this boat or have any links?
>
> Jesse
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
In-Reply-To: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
References: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <dklnauohlk3ounbqd2b03igvg33l5810e9@4ax.com>

On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:38:37 -0500, JDEGRAFF@sbcglobal.net wrote:

>Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered=20
>seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat=20
>that had not a conventional sail, but basically an=20
>airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing=20
>around trying to find information and pictures about=20
>this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more=20
>info about this boat or have any links?

I had seen the reference as well.  The key Google term turns out to be
"wingsail" and a couple standard publicity shots can be found at
http://www.lusas.com/images/yacht.gif,
http://www.formsys.com/Maxsurf/MSLaunchingsPage/WalkerWingsailPic1.gif
or http://www.boatshow.com/IMAGES/SAILBOATS/waz001aT4.jpg.  Sorry, but
both of the images are similar and small, but should be enough to
confirm what you remember.

The depicted boat is the Zephyr 43.  Unfortunately, it appears that
Walker Wingsail is no longer in business.

A much smaller alternative, but definitely interesting in appearance
is at
http://www.marinersguide.com/dockswap/national/messages/115.html,
though as one correspondent had it, there was a buoyancy problem.
When the 200 lbs pilot carried his child on his lap, the vessel tended
to submarine.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <20020403123426.04d59074.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20403.203116.4A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> laning wrote:
>> By the way, Jens, have you read Hal Clement's 'Mission of Gravity'?
>> A great example of intelligent alien life forms evolving on a world
>> extremely different from Terra.  A just plain extreme world, in
>> fact.  Clement opens the hood and lets us peer into a lot of the
>> alien building he does.  The book's a classic, in fact.

> Nope, I haven't. And I doubt that the library has that book in stock.
> I've placed it on the list of books to look for now, though.

You may want to see if you can get copies of "The Essential Hal
Clement" Volumes I, II and III. Volume III has Mission of Gravity, the
sequel "Star Light", and several short stories that are related.

The set has a lot of strange world or aliens that are good for
springing on folks not familiar with SF from that era.

And they aren't bad reading as long as you realized that the worlds are
as much "characters" as the sophonts.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:29:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:29:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20403.204017.2N3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at
> doorlocks etc...
>
> How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior is
> exposed to Vacuum?
>
> Not many...
>
> Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by
> being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a recording
> being played over radio)
>
> I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices
> relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad ID
> number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the
> card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you
> have access to your account.

Actually, even *now* there exist systems that use an access card that
you merely have to have on your person, not even in sight.

Basicly, the access mechanism sends a bunch of different frequency
radio signals out and the card resonates at a set of them that
consitutute the access code. Purely passive, no power required in the
card. 

If this was common, you'd have a "switch" to disable the resonance, so
folks couldn't read your codes as you walked by (then again, if you've
got more than one card, they won't know which frequencies go with which
card :-)

This would be good for stuff that needs to work while you are suited. 

Add simple PIN codes to deal with stolen cards and you are doing pretty
good. 

And at the higher frequencies you could have thousands of discrete
frequencies with a code consisting a few dozen or two. That's make
trying to "pick" the lock problematic. Not impossible, just time
consuming.

Especially if it has "traps" like frequencies that are *never* used by
the cards, and thus indicate a possible attempt to pick the lock. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
Message-ID: <AA-FD46A220263513E872C2C5D66B592F00-ZZ@homebase1.prodigy.net>

Same idea, but the one I'm looking for was at *least* 
a 40 footer...

Jesse


--- Original Message ---
From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing 
Yachts

>Check out http://www.windrocket.com/index.html.
>
>WKH
>
>JDEGRAFF@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
>> Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I 
remembered
>> seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat
>> that had not a conventional sail, but basically an
>> airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been 
Google'ing
>> around trying to find information and pictures about
>> this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know 
more
>> info about this boat or have any links?
>>
>> Jesse
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TML mailing list
>> TML@travellercentral.com
>> 
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
Message-ID: <AA-859664D2580835FD9C720DB5289F1E5A-ZZ@homebase1.prodigy.net>

THAT'S what I was looking for!  Thanks!  It's 
unfortunate that the pics are so small, but oh 
well :)  I tried about 15-20 different thing when 
looking for the bloody thing, but "wingsail" wasn't 
one of them.  "Wing sail" WAS one of them but I likely 
didn't dig deep enough.

Thanks again!
Jesse

<snip JR Holmes' work>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] If the TML seems sluggish...
Message-ID: <B8D13B56.3730F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

If the TML seems sluggish it's probably because I am in the process of
converting old mail archives to the new online archive format.

I expect to recover all archives back to mid 2001 without difficulty.

I've been looking over the archives from the past (back to 1995) and
converting them may take quite a bit of work.

I hope to be able to convert all existing TML (and XBOAT) archives into the
new format.  I may need to tap into some skilled brainpower of the TML.
Stay tuned.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:36:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:36:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Kians
Message-ID: <d8.15e7e500.29dd568a@aol.com>

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>     Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
>kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
>pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
>Cavalry.
>     Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?

  JTAS #9, per the "JTAS Index" from Jim V., posted 1 Mar 2002?

   Hey,
   Stats for these Tauntaun knock-offs were also provided in The Best of the 
Journal #3 (which I'm reading right now). 
   Says here they're large, plains-dwelling, herbivore grazers that travel in 
herds. Originally from Prilissa/Trin's Veil, but are exported, and now a 
common sight Coreward.
   Extremely good eyesight and hearing. Eat 30-50kg plant matter/day.
   Can carry up to 250kg comfortably. If overloaded, it'll refuse to move.

   (CT Stats follow)   
#       Type       Wt        Hits     Armor   Wounds & Weapons
10-60 Grazer     400kg   25/10   jack      10   Hooves  A9  F4  S3

   -Ken Murphy- 
   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
<BR>&gt;kian hails from? &nbsp;I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
<BR>&gt;pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
<BR>&gt;Cavalry.
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;JTAS #9, per the "JTAS Index" from Jim V., posted 1 Mar 2002?
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Hey,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Stats for these Tauntaun knock-offs were also provided in The Best of the Journal #3 (which I'm reading right now). 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Says here they're large, plains-dwelling, herbivore grazers that travel in herds. Originally from Prilissa/Trin's Veil, but are exported, and now a common sight Coreward.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Extremely good eyesight and hearing. Eat 30-50kg plant matter/day.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Can carry up to 250kg comfortably. If overloaded, it'll refuse to move.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;(CT Stats follow) &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR># &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Type &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Wt &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hits &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Armor &nbsp;&nbsp;Wounds &amp; Weapons
<BR>10-60 Grazer &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;400kg &nbsp;&nbsp;25/10 &nbsp;&nbsp;jack &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;10 &nbsp;&nbsp;Hooves &nbsp;A9 &nbsp;F4 &nbsp;S3
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;-Ken Murphy- 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:37:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:37:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403231032.00ab9320@pop.wizard.net>

>You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the
>stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to
>get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments
>to try and offset this sort of risk?
>
>Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?

People familiar with the market can _always_ fleece someone in the public, 
in fact that's generally what they are doing at any given moment.  At least 
in the good ol' US of A.  (I was a stockbroker in one of my former lives.)

Pretty standard options contracts should cover it.  The same ones that are 
traded now.  Plus you could do other things to try to hedge.  But, except 
in very extraordinary and usually fleeting situations, you won't be able to 
completely eliminate your risk unless you are also willing to eliminate 
your potential profit.

What a lot of people never realize about options, is the contracts are 
_not_ issued by the company that you're trading in, they have nothing to do 
with it.  And in fact, a lot of people have trouble understanding that when 
they buy shares of a stock, they (usually) are not buying the shares 
directly from the company, except in initial public offerings when a 
company goes from privately held to publicly held.  After the IPO, the 
members of the public who bought the shares will sell them to other members 
of the public from time to time, and they in turn may sell them to others, 
and so on and on.  When you buy a stock that is traded on an exchange, 
you're buying it from another investor just like you (or maybe not so much 
like you, heh) and the two of you are basically negotiating a bet on how 
much you each think the shares will be worth in the future.  I sell IBM at 
70 because I think the shares are going in the crapper, and you buy it at 
70 because you think the next annual report will spark investor 
confidence.  In other words, it's all just legalized gambling where people 
bet on what the mob psychology is going to be.

Now that we have that crude primer out of the way for people who are less 
acquianted with the fundamentals.

Stock exchanges on 21st century Terra all get information as soon as 
everybody else in existence get it.  It's a globally connected world, and 
valuable information moves at lightning speed.  There is nobody off world, 
so they don't need worry about a time delay.  Unless you count shuttle or 
space station personnel, and their time delay is neglible for purposes of 
this discussion.  So, everyone who is negotiating a bet on what the value 
of stock in Thingie Corp at this particular microsecond is theoretically 
party to the same information that the person on their side of their 
negotiation is.

If you send some of the people who trade in the stock off to a different 
planet, and it takes basically a week for information from this planet to 
reach that planet, then the smart thing to do is create an exchange on that 
far away planet where people there can trade the stock.  All the people at 
the faraway planet are theoretically party to new and relevant information 
at the same time as the rest of the folks at that planet.

In practice, this may not always be true.  Jump times are approximately one 
week, but depending on the dice and the quality of your ship's navigator 
you may make the journey roughly a day faster or a day slower.  If you can 
manage to reach Glisten from Regina a day sooner than anyone else who left 
Regina the same time you did, then you have one day during which you know 
something they don't know.

If the local exchange(s) at Glisten are trading in Regina FunCorp, ILC then 
they'll all be sharing the same stale, weeks-old news, and their trading 
decisions will be based on that news.  If you just happen to reach Glisten 
a day early, and you just happen to know that Regina FunCorp announced 
moments before you left that their CEO is being fired for malfeasance, 
there is a Regina Justice Department investigation into major auditing 
irregularities, and their comptroller just committed suicide when he 
received a subpoena, then you have an opportunity to short the hell out of 
Regina FunCorp on Glisten at prices the locals are probably willing to give 
you but wouldn't dream of if they knew the latest news.

In other words, each world with significant levels of commerce will almost 
certainly have its own stock exchange and shares traded elsewhere in the 
Imperium (or outside it, in many cases) may also be traded there.  It 
doesn't guarantee they _will_ be traded there.  Only if there's sufficient 
interest on Glisten in that particular issue will it be listed for trading 
there.  Whoever runs the exchange on Glisten will probably have regulations 
about how many shares must be registered to owners in system, how many 
shares must trade in any given day, etc.  If an issue doesn't live up to 
those minimum standards, the exchange's owners or regulators will delist it 
and you'll have to find somebody else to buy from you or sell to you.

And the person who just arrived a day ahead of schedule from Regina can 
make a killing on Glisten in Regina FunCorp speculation.  If RFC is listed, 
and if there are enough people willing to buy from him during that given 
day, and if he has the funds or credit to do what he is trying to do.

Bear in mind that if someone just arrived in system and they suddenly go as 
wild as they can buying or selling a particular stock, then that by itself 
will affect the stock.  Any time a seller drives up trading volume in one 
issue by 50% above normal, that's going to make a big difference.

In other words, if Bill Gates decided to actually start selling all his 
Microsoft shares one day, he'd drive Microsoft's price down into the 
gutter.  Even if nobody knew all those shares suddenly on the market 
belonged to an insider, it would just be a huge supply and demand 
imbalance.  And Gates would discover that people who reckon his net worth 
on paper are living in a very theoretical world.  He'd still be rich as the 
devil, but not nearly as rich people say he is.  Because people do say he 
is richer than the devil, you know.

Keeping all the above in mind, and keeping in mind that many exchanges on 
different planets will have reciprocal arrangements to ensure they're 
regulated virtually identically but many other exchanges will fly by night 
if they feel like it, there will be plenty of incentive for someone who 
trades in shares on an interstellar basis to get their news sooner than 
everyone else.  So there will be classes of people continually jumping 
ships between financial centers in hopes of getting to the destination a 
few hours before everyone else and keeping key information to 
themselves.  The really big brokerage firms will probably maintain their 
own fleets that do nothing but jump and then beam info by laser at the 
destination system while collecting beamed info from that system then 
jumping back.  Or they will pay an outside contractor to do that.  Or they 
will make it very well known to navigators and captains everywhere that 
they pay a bounty for such information.  There may even be cowboy operators 
who speculatively jump back and forth trying to be that first person to 
arrive with the news.  And a good navigator should command very rewarding 
compensation if he hires on with people like this.

Done babbling now.  Comments?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:38:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:38:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FE@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404040632.00aba320@pop.wizard.net>

>Kindest Sophont Laning,
>Regarding your RFP for a "modest", helicopter (how quaint!) equipped 
>motoryacht,
>are you looking for something in an expedition style yacht
>[http://www.yachtworld.com/expeditionyachts/expeditionyachts_3.html], 
>something
>classical [http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/], or something a little more
>aggressive looking? [http://www.newzealandyachts.com/].
>
>Best Regards,
>David Phoenecius
>Blackmoore Heavy Industries

Dear Sophont Phoenecius,

In regards your kind inquiry via recent Xmessage, please accept my grateful 
thanks for your interest.  After perusing the three styles you've 
indicated, the one that seems most attractive was that quaint and slightly 
aging, but gracefully appointed and impeccably maintained Britannia 
item.  It will need some refitting for the helipad and hangar, but I'm sure 
your reknowned naval architects will be able to devise something that 
remains true to the elegant yet relaxed Old World ambience one has such a 
difficult time finding these days.

Although it's former notoriety as a "ship of state" for some monarch on the 
Solomani Rim may lend it an air of gaucheness in some sophont's eyes, I 
prefer seeing it as imbuing this storied floating getaway with character 
and history, however local in nature.

In closing, please have your sophonts contact my sophonts and instruct them 
on the administrative details necessary to transfer funds via xboat.  My 
seneschal will pass on to me any recommendations you make regarding place 
and date of delivery, and I will consider them in the most favorable light 
as I've the utmost of trust in your judgment.

Long live Emperor Strephon,

Laning, His Grace, Duke of So Many Places He Doesn't Bother To Count Them 
Anymore


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:39:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:39:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404041749.00ab8ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn pointed out:
>Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?
>
>http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html
>
>Now that's what I am talking about.
>--


Oh my.  Speaking of Captain Nemo.  And what would Freud say?  I think 
that's actually relevant in this instance, because if anyone goes that far 
out of their way to have this thing, then it isn't "just a cigar".

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <20020403.170340.-179719.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404042049.00abc060@pop.wizard.net>

>
>Why not just take Catalina Island off the Southern California's Long
>Beach coast.

The thought has crossed my mind.  And Dashiell Hammett set one of his more 
daring, but lesser, stories there before the War.  Which has been copied in 
various films at least every ten years since then.  It makes for an 
interesting Traveller scenario, no matter which exact setting you translate 
it to.

The basic idea is robbers with grandiose visions take over at gunpoint the 
entire play resort of high rollers and the rich for one night, stripping 
everyone there of anything valuable, then escape into the night by 
boat.  They're tough, combat veterans, equipped with Thompson submachine 
guns and grenades as part of their arsenal.  I think.  Haven't read the 
story for at least twenty years.  At the time of the story, Catalina was 
home to one of the most heavily trafficked casinos that Americans frequented.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:40:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:40:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani Rim data errors?
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020403080940.027e7b68@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000201c1dbc2$54800920$fc00a8c0@imogen>

I've noticed some apparent anomalies in the  electronic  versions
of  the  Solomani  Rim.   These  anomalies  seem  to  have   been
replicated across multiple formats:

- Doug's World website (data.xls)
- Heaven&Earth (Solomani_Rim.HES)
- TR Tools (solomani.uwp)
- World Builders Deluxe (Solomani_Rim.WBS)
- ? (solomani.sdf)

... possibly others.

These anomalies are:
- 0606 Ishadar ... has a "KO" (kay-oh) star, this should be "K0" (kay-zero)
- 1901 Eshellim ... has a "VII" size star, this should be "D"
- 2205 Ikaakur ... has a "K3 IV" star, this should be "K0 IV"
- 2222 Ninkhur Sagga ... lacks any stellar data, and also lacks PBG codes

Any comments, disagreements, or the missing data for Ninkhur Sagga?

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:41:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:41:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
In-Reply-To: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404042713.00abaec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 10:38 PM 4/3/02 -0500, Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered
>seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat
>that had not a conventional sail, but basically an
>airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing
>around trying to find information and pictures about
>this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more
>info about this boat or have any links?
>
>Jesse

No.  But there is Cousteau's experimental "sail" boat.  Sort of a high-tech 
windmill that looks like a cross between a barber's pole, a maypole, a 
mast, and a sail.  I believe it drives a motor that drives a propulsion 
system.  Or is the motor.  I never have found out.  It should be easy to 
track down with Google.

Also, it makes a suitably outre and science-fictiony gizmo to place on some 
world's oceans so the your travellers get that sense of the new and alien, 
and living in the future.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:42:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:42:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Biochemistry (was : How common is advanced life?)
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOIEBACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Jens Rydholm wrote :-
> I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might
> look under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary
> after a while.
"Advanced" = multicellular, right?

> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life
> might function using radically different biochemistries?
Some of Ike Asimov's stuff can be summarised like this :-

Mean Envt.
Temperature   Biomolecules               Solvent
>150 C        Fluorinated silicones      Molten sulphur
-20 to 150 C  The stuff we're made of    Water
<-259C        Substituted lipids         Liquid hydrogen

As for what critters look like, that's a complex function of niche,
environment, and random selective factors (e.g. mass extinctions).

There was a Xenobiology overview I posted to the TML a long time ago
which addressed some of these issues.

What particular points would you like amplified or discussed?


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:43:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:43:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <20020404095814.B46FA27A5B@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204041254070.2194-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Charles (CHam628781@aol.com) writes:
>webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>>>_H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
>>>mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
>>>reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
>>>but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
>>>
>>>[*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.
>>
>>Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are
>>interfertile.

I didn't say they were. I said that the Zhodani _claims_ that they are.
Erroneously, as it happens, but when have facts ever interfered with
political theories?

>Depends on what you mean by "interfertile" some species (including ones with
>differing numbers of chromosomes) can interbreed but not produce fertile
>young.

Interfertile for the purpose of establishing that two population groups
belong to the same species means 'capable of producing fertile offspring'.
(At least when you're talking about mammals).

>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk
>writes:
>
>>>Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
>>>ridiculous as well.
>>
>>No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H.
>>erectus_
>>and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
>>actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
>>it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
>>showing up as early as that.
>
>H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say
>I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H.
>sapiens back that far.

The book I got my information from was written in 1997, so I think it
qualifies for the term 'modern'. It's been returned to the library, so I
can't provide the name, but a web search of the tern 'archaic Homo
sapiens' provided me with 12 links, the first three of which either put
archaic Homo sapiens that far back or left the qustion open (I didn't
check the rest).

http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/ANTD15/Bill/multi-media.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#moderns

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html#C


>>But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
>>tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In
>>the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place
>>_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.
>
>True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are
>descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even
>more arrogant than they already are.

Whether it would be more interesting is debatable. And such a debate would
be moot, because that's not the way it is. Both Vilani and zhodani are
expressly said to be members of _H. sapiens_.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:43:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Oops
Message-ID: <PGNMAANMJKDGGCAA@angelfire.com>

Dear all,I was wondering if you could help me.

I'm going away for the weekend and don't want to crash my mail server. How do I go about suspending the list while I'm away?

Cheers
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem




Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:44:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:44:41 2002
Subject: [TML] (long) Re: inheritance Imperial style
References: <20020403181406.EE90627A4D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c1dbe6$52c83ca0$025d8690@computer>

> From: laning
> IIRC, the Albigensian Crusade was the first Crusade.

Bzzt.  Thank you for playing.  The first crusade ended in 1099.  I've
grabbed a couple of entries on the Albigensian Crusade from one of my handy
encyclopedia CDs.

OBTRAVs should be obvious enough.

Excerpts from The Oxford Interactive Encyclopedia:
Albigensians, followers of a form of the Cathar heresy; they took their name
from the town of Albi in Languedoc in southern France. There and in northern
Italy the sect acquired immense popularity. The movement was condemned at
the Council of Toulouse in 1119 and by the Third and Fourth Lateran councils
in 1179 and 1215, which opposed it not only as heretical but because it
threatened the family and the state. St Bernard and St Dominic were its
vigorous opponents. Between 1209 and 1228 the wars known as the Albigensian
Crusade were mounted, led principally by Simon de Montfort. By 1229 the
heretics were largely crushed and the Treaty of Meaux delivered most of
their territory to France.

Cathar (Greek katharos, 'pure'), a member of a medieval sect seeking to
achieve a life of great purity. Cathars believed in a 'dualist' heresy.
Their basic belief was that if God, being wholly good, had alone created the
world it would have been impossible for evil to exist within it, and that
another, diabolical, creative force must have taken part. They held that the
material world and all within it were irredeemably evil. The human body and
its appetites were despised. Marriage was rejected and suicide by starvation
was admired. A pure life was impossible to all but a very few called the
'perfect', and the rest--known simply as 'believers'--could live as they
wished. Salvation was assured if they took a form of confirmation known as
the 'consolamentum' before death. This ceremony was to be delayed as long as
possible to reduce the chance of the recipient's sinning further before he
or she died. The heresy originated in Bulgaria and appeared in western
Europe in the 1140s. In southern France this Christian heresy was called
Albigensianism.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:45:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:45:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
References: <20020403200103.CA19127A56@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c1dbe6$5218c2c0$025d8690@computer>

> From: "Rachel Kronick"
> I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists
> Table (UTT),

Hmm.  We'd probably want a bit of a framework to hang the Twists together.
It wouldn't have to be too complex - an introduction, set of "acts", climax
and conclusion structure would probably work.

Using stuff other people develop to provide surprise is a good idea too.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B8D1A48C.37332%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
Message-ID: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning expounds majestically on the value of information
<snip>

It almost sounds like there's the Imperial X-Boat, but a 
brokerage might run an x-boat to and from each system several 
times a day with the news and trading information. It still 
takes a week to get information, but it would be hard 
to "beat the boat".

It would make things more interesting if you had things 
arranged so that jumps took a week + or - some hours. Let's 
say that the modifier, as you suggested, would be the 
navigator's skill.  Therefore, we roll 2D6, - Nav.  If you 
roll a 7, that's exactly on time.  But if you roll higher, 
you are an hour late for each number higher.  And you are one 
hour earlier for each number lower.

Makes me think that a lot of navigators will get their 
training doing Imperial x-boat, and then change career to fly 
for a private broker or a merchant line that contracts to 
brokers.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Oops
In-Reply-To: <PGNMAANMJKDGGCAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <B8D1A906.37346%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 11:34 AM, Andrew Whincup at shanhat@angelfire.com wrote:

> Dear all,I was wondering if you could help me.
> 
> I'm going away for the weekend and don't want to crash my mail server. How do
> I go about suspending the list while I'm away?
> 

go to http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Log in and set "Disable Mail Delivery" to yes
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 07:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 07:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

My wife caught me working on the standard operating 
procedures/tips manual, and she asked what it was for. She's 
a technical writer, so she's attracted to large documents.

I told her that it was tips, and in large part, a standard 
operating procedure manual for Traveller parties.

She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000 
Certified?"
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 07:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu Apr  4 07:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404042049.00abc060@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020404152552.33017.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com>

--- laning <laning@wizard.net> wrote:
> 
> >
> >Why not just take Catalina Island off the Southern
> California's Long
> >Beach coast.
> 
> The thought has crossed my mind.  And Dashiell
> Hammett set one of his more 
> daring, but lesser, stories there before the War. 
> Which has been copied in 
> various films at least every ten years since then. 
> It makes for an 
> interesting Traveller scenario, no matter which
> exact setting you translate 
> it to.
> 
> The basic idea is robbers with grandiose visions
> take over at gunpoint the 
> entire play resort of high rollers and the rich for
> one night, stripping 
> everyone there of anything valuable, then escape
> into the night by 
> boat.  They're tough, combat veterans, equipped with
> Thompson submachine 
> guns and grenades as part of their arsenal.  I
> think.  Haven't read the 
> story for at least twenty years.  At the time of the
> story, Catalina was 
> home to one of the most heavily trafficked casinos
> that Americans frequented.
> 
> --Laning
> 
  >>
  AHA! So THAT's where Able Team #2(or was it 3?) came
from! I knew that wasn't an original idea......

 MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 07:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 07:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>

At 10:15 AM 4/4/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>My wife caught me working on the standard operating
>procedures/tips manual, and she asked what it was for. She's
>a technical writer, so she's attracted to large documents.
>I told her that it was tips, and in large part, a standard
>operating procedure manual for Traveller parties.
>She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
>Certified?"

I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor training.

Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.

"You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections & standards"

----------------------------------------------------------------
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"Government does not cause affluence.  Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:13:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:13:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Hidden decks  was RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3604@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Paul Walker wrote:
Hey!  I used to work for Trinity before they spun away
from Halter Marine.
<snip cool story>

LOL!  That's pretty funny :)

I'll let the gearheads figure out what size densitometer would be needed to find something like that, and at what range they'd be able to do it from.  From a conceptual design standpoint, if you're trying to fool an on-board customs inspection team that doesn't have densitometers, I'd think about using a deck layout like the AHL.  Have one (or more) of the marked fuel decks be the hidden deck(s), with either no access from the lifts or surreptitious access.  Use a keycard in a reader hidden in the wall panel seams near your right toe or somesuch.

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
References: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c1dbf2$1d1b9500$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: economic crash


> laning expounds majestically on the value of information
> <snip>
>
> It almost sounds like there's the Imperial X-Boat, but a
> brokerage might run an x-boat to and from each system several
> times a day with the news and trading information. It still
> takes a week to get information, but it would be hard
> to "beat the boat".
>
> It would make things more interesting if you had things
> arranged so that jumps took a week + or - some hours. Let's
> say that the modifier, as you suggested, would be the
> navigator's skill.  Therefore, we roll 2D6, - Nav.  If you
> roll a 7, that's exactly on time.  But if you roll higher,
> you are an hour late for each number higher.  And you are one
> hour earlier for each number lower.
>
> Makes me think that a lot of navigators will get their
> training doing Imperial x-boat, and then change career to fly
> for a private broker or a merchant line that contracts to
> brokers.

This would work well IMTU.

IMTU if two ships were within a few hundred km of each other, and both
Jumped at the same time with their exit point again being within a few
hundred km of each other, you would roll the dice for the Jump duration once
and apply the result to both ships. They would emerge from jump at almost
exactly the same time. The variance would be on the order of a few seconds
to a couple of minutes at most.

If they were both to immediately return to their starting points, you would
again make a single jump duration roll and apply it to both ships. Note that
the first jump might take 6.5 days the second might be 7.5. This is due to
the changes in Jumpspace due to the movement of large gravity wells in real
space. At the commencement of Jump the crew know exactly how long *that
particular jump* will take, and this same time will be taken by any other
vessels in the neighbourhood jumping to the same destination for the next
few hours or so. The next time that particular route is taken the roll will
give a different result as conditions have changed.

Now, using your proposed navigation roll, the Navigator becomes more
important, as he strives to shave a few hours off the duration by optimising
the route, skirting closer to intervening gravity wells. A cautious
navigator will add a few hours on as he gives potential hazards a wider
berth...

Perhaps the navigator could state the numbers of hours they wanted to
shorten or extend the jump by as a DM. on 2D 8+ to avoid potential misjump:
DM + 2*Navigator Skill, + Hours of extra Jump duration, - Hours of reduced
Jump Duration

So a Navigator with Skill 2 could add 2 Hours to the Rolled Jump duration
and be safe. A real Hotshot with  Nav-4 could trim 2 Hours of the jump time
and still be safe etc

The effect of a failed roll would be to roll on the misjump table with the
difference between the modified Nav roll and 8 as the DM on the misjump
table.

Another way to increase the utility of the Navigator is to let them
calculate the Jump duration given jumping now, in six hours, 12 hours etc.
Basically, let the navigator roll the duration in advance a number of times
equal to their Nav Skill. Each successive roll equates to the calculated
Jump duration from Here to There given Jumping Now, and successive six hour*
intervals later. It may well result that the fastest route through Jumpspace
occurs in 12 Hours time, and will get you there with 24 hours shorter jump
duration than those rolled for Now, Six hours, Eighteen hours etc. The
prudent Merchant would therefore wait 12 hours before Jumping, as he will
thus arrive in the destination system at least 12 hours earlier than jumping
now. The party in a hurry to get the Hell out of Dodge might prefer to Jump
now, despite a longer Jump duration, as incoming missiles make doing so
prudent...

To sum this up:

Skill       Advance Rolls
0            0. Only rolls upon Jump initiation to see how long this Jump is

1            1 Can see how long a Jump initiated now will take BEFORE
initiating Jump. May Wait Six hours* and                     try again for a
better result
2            2 Can see Jump duration if jump initiated Now and if initiated
in 6 hours* time.

3            3 As 2, but can see Now, 6 Hours*, and 12 Hour* durations

4            4 Now, 6*, 12*, 18*

etc

*Obviously, you can tweak the 6 hour thing to suit your own style... 4
hourly intervals may be just as good (or even better) gaming wise...

So a skilled Navigator can not only forecast better jump windows, they can
the try to shave time off those as well... "Beating the Boat" becomes a lot
more interesting =)

(Also, this 'a given jump takes a given duration if performed at a given
time' situation allows for Fleets to arrive as a coordinated unit, rather
than as a rag-tag of ships scattered over 2 days. Should cheer up the
military planners out there <g>)

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:15:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:15:54 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404082015.00ac34e0@mail.verizon.net>

Hi John,

Just remember, ISO-9000 is about demonstrating that you have a documented 
process, not that you follow it!  ;-)

Best regards,

Charles

At 10:15 AM 4/4/02 -0500, you wrote:
>My wife caught me working on the standard operating
>procedures/tips manual, and she asked what it was for. She's
>a technical writer, so she's attracted to large documents.
>
>I told her that it was tips, and in large part, a standard
>operating procedure manual for Traveller parties.
>
>She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
>Certified?"
>________________
>Do you think my being stronger and
>faster has anything to do with my
>muscles in this place?...Do you think
>that's air that you are breathing?
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:16:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:16:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Solomani Rim data errors?
Message-ID: <000201c1dbff$e448bc40$fc00a8c0@imogen>

Oops, just rechecked LBB 6 (Scouts) and I now think 2205 (Ikaakur)
should be "K3 V".

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:17:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:17:23 2002
Subject: [TML] More data errors?
Message-ID: <000301c1dbff$e508ff00$fc00a8c0@imogen>

I've now checked Alpha Crucis and Antares.  It appears  that  the
rule that K5-M9 is not available for size IV stars and  B0-F4  is
not available for size size VI stars (and in  both  cases  change
the size to V) has not been applied.  I suspect I'm going to find
this in most sectors.  Has anyone noticed this before?

Regards PLST



ALPHA CRUCIS SECTOR
===================
A0204 "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
A0806 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
B0309 "K4 IV" should be "K4 V"
B0606 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
D0310 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
E0103 "K3 IV" should be "K3 V"
E0207 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
E0408 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
E0602 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
E0704 "M5 IV" should be "M5 V"
F0307 "M2 IV" should be "M2 V"
F0402 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
F0506 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
F0510 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
F0710 "K6 IV" should be "K6 V"
G0108 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V" ... then swap the primary and companion
G0801 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
G0807 "M2 IV" should be "M2 V"
H0506 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
H0609 "K5 IV" should be "K5 V"
H0702 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
I0103 "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
J0203 "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
J0209 "K6 IV" should be "K6 V"
J0607 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
J0710 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
L0709 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
L0805 "M2 IV" should be "M2 V"
M0310 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
N0405 "K9 IV" should be "K9 V"
N0501 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
N0504 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
N0509 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
N0810 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
O0102 "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
O0703 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
O0709 "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
O0805 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"



ANTARES SECTOR
==============
A0507: "F3 VI" should be "F3 V"
A0602: "M9 IV" should be "M9 V"
A0801: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
B0708: "K5 IV" should be "K5 V"
C0204: "F0 VI" should be "F0 V"
C0401: "F1 VI" should be "F1 V"
C0801: "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
E0102: "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
E0105: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
F0302: "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
F0508: "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
F0610: "K9 IV" should be "K9 V"
G0108: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
G0803: "K1 IV" should be "K1 V"
I0105: "K6 IV" should be "K6 V"
J0305: "F4 VI" should be "F4 V"
J0605: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
J0608: "F0 VI" should be "F0 V"
L0108: "K2 IV" should be "K2 V"
M0207: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
M0402: "K2 IV" should be "K2 V"
M0706: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
M0707: "F0 VI" should be "F0 V"
N0306: "F1 VI" should be "F1 V"
O0107: "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
O0302: "F4 VI" should be "F4 V"
O0503: "F4 VI" should be "F4 V"
P0107: "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
P0205: "F3 VI" should be "F3 V"
P0502: "F1 VI" should be "F1 V"

(done)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
References: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1dbff$e6158d00$fc00a8c0@imogen>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
> stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
> get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
> to try and offset this sort of risk?

There are ways to avoid this.

First, rather than invest directly in one or other stock  instead
invest in a unit trust.  These are funds made up of a  basket  of
stocks, so if one collapsed suddenly your losses are cushioned by
the others in the fund.  A fund manger "on-site" then  trades  in
and out of any stocks on that exchange  based  on  circumstances.
His goal is to maximise the fund's performance ... which in  turn
attracts more investors.  Unless the fund manager is  incompetant
you shouldn't loose unless the whole exchange is in decline.

Second, you let your broker buy and sell on your behalf: you  can
give him instructions ranging from a  few  sentences  to  several
pages ... this is called a client  mandate  (where  you  are  the
client).  For example: a simple mandate might say "sell any stock
whose price drops below  the  purchase  price  and  reinvest  any
monies  (including  dividend  payments)   in   manufacturers   of
environmentally friendly products".

Check out StuffOnline ...
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol  and  in  the  Traveller
section you'll find a link called "Financial Markets".



> Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?

This is unlikely to happen for two reasons:

(1)  Financial markets are heavily regulated to prevent  fleecing
     ... it can still happen but those who try often face lengthy
     prison terms.

(2)  Brokers and other financial institutions  live  and  die  on
     reputation.  The last thing they  want  is  for  someone  to
     claim they did not  act  in  the  best  interests  of  their
     clients.  (Contrary to popular  belief  the  slogan  of  the
     London financial community is *not* "who dares wins", it  is
     "my word is my bond".)

A bank's  Compliance  Department  doesn't  just  investigate  any
anomalies reported, it will be pro-active and involve itself with
day-to-day business (like a QA department).



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:18:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:18:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Tugs, etc
Message-ID: <200204041934.DIV01979@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I haven't seen many designs for a "tug", a useful vessel for 
attaching to and moving other larger vessels.  Might also be 
useful for moving large asteroids that come in from the outer 
system and pose a hazard to navigation (or even to a planet).

Was just reading
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-space-
menace0404apr04.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnationworld%2Dheadlines

and had a mental picture of some bored tug crew getting 
orders to move out and push this piece of rock into the sun.

"What are you so excited about?  It's just another asteroid."
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:19:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:19:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <F115a0x5eceUXj0sZb00001399a@hotmail.com>

Texas Redshift <texasredshift@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > If the 'Alien' from the movie boarded my ship, <snip> Subsequent
> > events to be determined by the referee.  :->
>
>I liked the movie, but I always thought the crewmembers of the Nostromo had 
>way too much trouble getting their act together.

They had a lot of factors working against them.  Nothing
inside the ship was any kind of secureable except the computer
room, since no one was supposed to be aboard except
triple-cleared company employees.  They had a traitor in their
midst, and a secret agenda going on from their corporate masters.
A small group of wage-slave technicians running a cargo ship
were way out of their league, and had an appropriate casualty
rate.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:20:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:20:20 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <005e01c1dc0d$850509b0$c8d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

 "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
> >Certified?"
> 
> I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor training.
> 
> Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.
> 
> "You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections & standards"
>

Argh. Day job intrudes even here!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:21:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:21:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani Rim data errors?
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020403080940.027e7b68@192.168.0.1> <000201c1dbc2$54800920$fc00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <DAV457emxUgjtwxoJ9Y000140e6@hotmail.com>

Per Supplement 10 The Solomani Rim

Ninkhur Sagga    Sol 0602    BAA7769 D   Military Rule  G

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com

> - 2222 Ninkhur Sagga ... lacks any stellar data, and also lacks PBG codes
> 
> Any comments, disagreements, or the missing data for Ninkhur Sagga?
> 
> Regards PLST
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <005e01c1dc0d$850509b0$c8d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404162723.00a8aea0@urbin.net>

At 08:15 PM 4/4/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>  "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
> > >Certified?"
> > I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> > I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor training.
> > Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.
> > "You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections & standards"
>
>Argh. Day job intrudes even here!

Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.


----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"It is both foolish and wicked to teach the average man who is
not well off that some wrong or injustice has been done him,
and that he should hope for redress elsewhere than in his own
industry, honesty, and intelligence." -- Theodore Roosevelt,
"Review of Reviews", January 1897
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tugs, etc
Message-ID: <20020404.134744.-5683.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

John

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:34:11 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> I haven't seen many designs for a "tug", a useful vessel for 
> attaching to and moving other larger vessels.  Might also be 
> useful for moving large asteroids that come in from the outer 
> system and pose a hazard to navigation (or even to a planet).

I've adopted a couple of tugs from my Starwars flight sim games XWing and
Tie Fighter. None were used to tow large ships though. Their role was
transporting of various cargo containers, and crew. I designed both the
tugs and cargo containers with MT for MTU.  I also designed jump cargo
transports as well.

You're welcome to ask for them, and even correct flaws in my designing.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:02:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:02:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <200204041157.DIF02066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>

JTK quoted Laning and wrote:
> >Oh, if I do go Marine, how do you feel about my house rule
> >of substituting battle ax skill for cutlass skill as the
> >default Marine 'blade' weapon?
>
>I don't think that the battle axe is something that is
>readily laying around.  I have a hard enough time with the
>default "blade" being anything except bayonet, but that's me.
I'm copying this to the TML, because I think a lot of folks there might 
enjoy it.  :->

Classic Traveller says the default blade skill that Marines cascade to is 
Bayonet.  For reasons of tradition, esprit de corps, inspiring confidence 
in troops, and instilling the proper spirit of attack.  Same reasons that 
Marc Miller had to suffer through bayonet drills when he was in the Army 
even though the widespread opinion of the day was that bayonet training is 
obsolete.  In other words, I think the Traveller ruling is largely a 
product of the times during which it was written.

I like to think that the introduction of practical battle armor would 
change this equation, and it would make a very big impact on fighting in 
boarding actions.  Combat ranges will often be melee distance.  Opponents 
will all be wearing at least vacc suit for armor.  The Imperial Marines 
would have adjusted to this tactical requirement centuries ago, and a 
one-handed battle axe intended to puncture armor would be the default melee 
weapon.  For Marines.  Even if there is widespread opinion that boarding 
actions are rare.  For reasons of tradition, esprit de corps, inspiring 
confidence in troops, and instilling the proper spirit of attack, Imperial 
Marines take the practice very seriously.

Battle axes would be in abundant supply around Navy and Marine 
armories.  And, as you say, not exactly readily laying around anywhere 
else.  Except maybe in 'army surplus shops', a place where people usually 
like to buy militaria.  Also, every Marine recruiting office will have one 
proudly displayed on a wall plaque behind the OIC's or NCOIC's desk, 
crossed with a gauss rifle.  Both weapons very firmly attached to said 
plaque by lots of wiring.  The axe has probably never been sharpened.

There's also the apocryphal, but widely believed, tale of a legendary 
Imperial Marine.  During the Fourth Frontier War, Sergeant Alvin Horatio 
singlehandedly defended the hatchway leading onto his ship's bridge with 
nothing but battle dress and his battle axe for over three hours against 
literally hundreds of Sword Worlders who had boarded the ship.  Meanwhile, 
surviving bridge crew were working in their vacc suits behind him to repair 
control consoles and access antiboarding software routines.  They 
succeeded, and triggered the 'grav ping-pong' routine for the corridor 
outside their bridge.  Tellers of the tale differ over whether Sergeant 
Horatio survived or whether the grav ping-pong killed him along with the 
remainder of his foe.  All versions of the tale agree that he had slain 72 
of the enemy with his battle axe when the battle ended.  The enemy had to 
keep pulling back their corpses just to get enough room to attack him.  It 
is said that Sergeant Horatio originally came from a low tech level, low 
law level planet and grew up in a lumberjacking area.  'Horatio at the 
bridge' is a piece of lore that every Marine has embedded in them.

IMTU, the Imperial Marines replace crossed rifles with a 
rifle-crossed-with-battle-axe on their uniform and unit insignia.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017958207.9067.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> 
> I like to think that the introduction of practical battle armor would 
> change this equation, and it would make a very big impact on fighting in 
> boarding actions.  Combat ranges will often be melee distance.  Opponents 
> will all be wearing at least vacc suit for armor.  The Imperial Marines 
> would have adjusted to this tactical requirement centuries ago, and a 
> one-handed battle axe intended to puncture armor would be the default melee
>  weapon. 

There's one very important reason for the bayonet: it lets you have a melee
weapon while carrying a real weapon (a firearm) as well.  A battleaxe doesn't
do this.

A battleaxe, even with the strength of powered armor behind it, shouldn't have
much of a chance of penetrating any significant level of armor.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
Message-ID: <92.23b50a36.29de2962@aol.com>

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>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk
>writes:
>
>>>Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
>>>ridiculous as well.
>>
>>No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H.
>>erectus_
>>and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
>>actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
>>it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
>>showing up as early as that.
>
>H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say
>I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H.
>sapiens back that far.

The book I got my information from was written in 1997, so I think it
qualifies for the term 'modern'. It's been returned to the library, so I
can't provide the name, but a web search of the tern 'archaic Homo
sapiens' provided me with 12 links, the first three of which either put
archaic Homo sapiens that far back or left the qustion open (I didn't
check the rest).

http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/ANTD15/Bill/multi-media.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#moderns

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html#C

Archaic H. sapiens is an interchangeable term for H. heidelbergensis. There 
are clear morphological differences between H. heidelbergensis and H. sapiens 
(and possibly behavioural differences) but the term archaic H. sapiens has 
not yet died out. You sometimes also see H. heidelbergensis called H. sapiens 
heidelbergensis and modern humans called H. sapiens sapiens.

Paleoanthropologists like a good fight about a name - see the current debate 
about H. ergaster / H. erectus for an example.

> 
> 
> >>But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
> >>tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. 
> In
> >>the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't 
> place
> >>_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.
> >
> >True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are
> >descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be 
> even
> >more arrogant than they already are.
> 
> Whether it would be more interesting is debatable. And such a debate would
> be moot, because that's not the way it is. Both Vilani and zhodani are
> expressly said to be members of _H. sapiens_.
> 
> 
> 
> Hans
> 

And Hivers are said not to use sound in their communication which is 
err...unlikely. Still as you say it's moot because it was written that way.


Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2><BR>
&gt;In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk<BR>
&gt;writes:<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;ridiculous as well.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H.<BR>
&gt;&gt;erectus_<BR>
&gt;&gt;and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That<BR>
&gt;&gt;actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing<BR>
&gt;&gt;it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_<BR>
&gt;&gt;showing up as early as that.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say<BR>
&gt;I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H.<BR>
&gt;sapiens back that far.<BR>
<BR>
The book I got my information from was written in 1997, so I think it<BR>
qualifies for the term 'modern'. It's been returned to the library, so I<BR>
can't provide the name, but a web search of the tern 'archaic Homo<BR>
sapiens' provided me with 12 links, the first three of which either put<BR>
archaic Homo sapiens that far back or left the qustion open (I didn't<BR>
check the rest).<BR>
<BR>
http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/ANTD15/Bill/multi-media.html<BR>
<BR>
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#moderns<BR>
<BR>
http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html#C</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Archaic H. sapiens is an interchangeable term for H. heidelbergensis. There are clear morphological differences between H. heidelbergensis and H. sapiens (and possibly behavioural differences) but the term archaic H. sapiens has not yet died out. You sometimes also see H. heidelbergensis called H. sapiens heidelbergensis and modern humans called H. sapiens sapiens.<BR>
<BR>
Paleoanthropologists like a good fight about a name - see the current debate about H. ergaster / H. erectus for an example.<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt;But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up<BR>
&gt;&gt;tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In<BR>
&gt;&gt;the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place<BR>
&gt;&gt;_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are<BR>
&gt;descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even<BR>
&gt;more arrogant than they already are.<BR>
<BR>
Whether it would be more interesting is debatable. And such a debate would<BR>
be moot, because that's not the way it is. Both Vilani and zhodani are<BR>
expressly said to be members of _H. sapiens_.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hans<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
And Hivers are said not to use sound in their communication which is err...unlikely. Still as you say it's moot because it was written that way.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404082015.00ac34e0@mail.verizon.net>
Greetings dear hearts.

ISO9000 can be described thus: -

1. Thou shalt have procedures.

2. Thou shalt follow thy procedures.

3. Thou shalt document that thou hast followed thy procedures.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (long) Re: inheritance Imperial style
In-Reply-To: <006b01c1dbe6$52c83ca0$025d8690@computer>
References: <20020403181406.EE90627A4D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404173305.02b226d0@pop.wizard.net>

Alan Bradley wrote:
> > From: laning
> > IIRC, the Albigensian Crusade was the first Crusade.
>
>Bzzt.  Thank you for playing.  The first crusade ended in 1099.  I've
>grabbed a couple of entries on the Albigensian Crusade from one of my handy
>encyclopedia CDs.
I stand corrected.  Thank you for so kindly pointing that out.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174015.02af68b0@pop.wizard.net>

>She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
>Certified?"

Oh god.  Please.  Never.  What a racket.

BTW, my wife is also a technical writer.  Small world.  :->

I'm afraid to open up the 50-page document you sent because it may put me 
hopeless behind on keeping up with the TML and two PBEM games.  But I 
promise to work on it soon.  The real problem is I will probably want to do 
far more than a trivial amount of work on it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:42:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:42:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <memo.258283@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
Question for JTK - is it too late to join in?

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:51:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:51:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017958207.9067.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174808.00a7d008@urbin.net>

At 02:10 PM 4/4/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>laning writes:
> > I like to think that the introduction of practical battle armor would
> > change this equation, and it would make a very big impact on fighting in
> > boarding actions.  Combat ranges will often be melee distance.  Opponents
> > will all be wearing at least vacc suit for armor.  The Imperial Marines
> > would have adjusted to this tactical requirement centuries ago, and a
> > one-handed battle axe intended to puncture armor would be the default melee
> >  weapon.
>There's one very important reason for the bayonet: it lets you have a melee
>weapon while carrying a real weapon (a firearm) as well.  A battleaxe doesn't
>do this.

The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF 
since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.


>A battleaxe, even with the strength of powered armor behind it, shouldn't have
>much of a chance of penetrating any significant level of armor.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:57:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:57:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174808.00a7d008@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:
> 
> The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF 
> since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.

Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a reference _since_ Lensman, though there
certainly was one in Lensman.  In any case, it hasn't been a 'staple' exactly.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:59:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (nellkyn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:59:15 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <001001c1dc2b$d13fac40$a6ecff3e@k5k9u6>

----- Original Message -----
From: Megan Robertson <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] more on the sop


> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404082015.00ac34e0@mail.verizon.net>
> Greetings dear hearts.
>
> ISO9000 can be described thus: -
>
> 1. Thou shalt have procedures.
>
> 2. Thou shalt follow thy procedures.
>
> 3. Thou shalt document that thou hast followed thy procedures.
>
> Hugs and kisses,
>
> Mexal.

Please stop it and make it go away! I've just suffered a BSI surveillance
visit today. Traveller is where I get away from the real world.

Obtrav
Would there be a standards institute in the 3I?
Would ISO 9000 appeal to the Vilani sense bureaucracy?

I for one, don't bloody care on either count.

Neil

Quality Manager by day.
TML Lurker by night.

>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:07:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:07:24 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <164.b94855a.29de3657@cs.com>

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Mark Urbin writes:


> Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.
> 
> 

Done that.

"My card..."
-------------------------------------

Ambrose Bartholomew Lovejoy
        Accountant-at-War

-------------------------------------

Doug Grimes

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Tahoma" LANG="0">Mark Urbin writes:
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Tahoma" LANG="0">
<BR>Done that.
<BR>
<BR>"My card..."
<BR>-------------------------------------
<BR>
<BR>Ambrose Bartholomew Lovejoy
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Accountant-at-War
<BR>
<BR>-------------------------------------
<BR>
<BR>Doug Grimes</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404162723.00a8aea0@urbin.net>
References: <005e01c1dc0d$850509b0$c8d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174321.02af7ac0@pop.wizard.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
 >>>
Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.
<<<

Hm, it might be fun to turn that into a sort of elite super soldier/private 
cop gig.  Combine war fighting skills with investigative skills, and only 
the best of the best are able to do the job effectively.  They get paid 
ridiculously well to go to war zones and verify that everyone from the 
generals to the supply sergeants to the front-line unit leaders really are 
doing what they report they're doing.  They have to verify not only the 
accuracy of financial reports but also compliance with all the various 
regulations affecting mercenaries, including code of war stuff.

A silly idea, but makes for nice cinematic possibilities.

Oh, speaking of which.  I saw three movies in the last two days that might 
be of interest to RPGers.  'We Were Soldiers', 'Blade 2', and 'Resident 
Evil'.  I was surprised to see that my favorite of the three was 'Resident 
Evil'.  My short reviews follow.

'We Were Soldiers'  I was both disappointed and riveted at the same 
time.  Might provide some useful background and even plot ideas to a 
referee sending military units from a peaceful garrison life to a battle 
zone.  The garrison life it shows is a period and setting I'm very familiar 
with from my own childhood, and in some ways it was very convincing, but 
overall it was definitely the Hollywood version where star power counts for 
more than character development, historical accuracy, or anything 
else.  I'm going to try the book, which I suspect is about 100 times 
better.  Mel Gibson did his best but is about fifteen years too old for his 
part.

'Blade 2'  Even more gorily repulsive than I expected.  It's a shame that 
an impressively talented actor like Wesley Snipes only seems to be able to 
make such things.  And a shame to waste the ever-interesting Kris 
Kristofferson on something so vulgar.  He's a Rhodes scholar, and he's come 
to this?  Gaming referees and players alike may find that most of the plot 
twists can be seen coming from several kilometers away.  They did do a nice 
piece of writing when they rationalized a humans working for a vampire with 
the term 'familiar'.  Which was probably in the first 'Blade' but I forgot 
it.  If you're only there looking for source material, leave after the 
first five minutes that show scary high-tech vampires cum martial artists 
infiltrating the good guys' bat cave.  This included the vampires wearing 
insectoid-looking hoods and goggles.  When they'd speak to each other, I at 
first thought that their hoods/masks were doing encryption of their speech 
so it came out like a hissing sound, and presumably their hoods also 
included earphones with built-in decryption of incoming speech.  They were 
actually speaking in a foreign language, I guess.  But 
encrypting/decrypting speech is a cool idea.  Good guys and bad guys alike 
can say whatever they want to each other right in front of their 
enemies.  Just whisper into their built-in mikes.  I should probably go 
pitch this to law enforcement and the military now and see if I can make 
some money from it.  DARPA probably wants to throw money at me.  Oh, Snipes 
"cleverly" places a tiny explosive device on the back of the head of one of 
the vampires, so that he can ensure the vampire's cooperation.  This may 
have a very small interest as source material for gaming.

'Resident Evil'  Like 'Blade', it's a shame a talented actor like Milla 
Jovovich (and some of the rest of its cast) are only getting work in a 
superficial action adventure flick.  But this one has more creativity in 
its little finger than 'Blade' can ever accumulate even if it goes on for 
another twenty sequels.  If you've played the computer game it sprang from, 
then you probably already know the major plot twists, but I've never played 
it, so they were all new to me and mostly kept me guessing until the end, 
which was itself fairly predictable.  But it wasn't trying to be 
unpredictable, and it was fine.  It comes dangerously close for awhile to 
becoming just another "small band versus undead zombies" horror flick, with 
a few nice science fiction touches, but it rose above that.  Like almost 
all "science" fiction movies and a lot of writing, genetics and mutation 
are laughable.  But in context, the disbelief suspenders weren't stretched 
too far.  'Blade' had the exact same problem, but was a bigger strain on 
the suspenders.  'Resident Evil' could have used more character 
development, too, but it did better than most films of its genre at 
this.  Pacing was quite good, and most FX were competent to really 
interesting.  If this film had come out twenty years ago, it probably would 
have been seminal.  Much like 'Alien' was.  It may yet be influential in 
some ways.  This is the only one I've seen of the recent crop of movies 
developed from games.  I'm not nominating it for any Oscar categories that 
I can think of, but it's definitely worth viewing if you've any interest at 
all in this sort of thing.  And if you're a nonhomosexual male like me, 
there's plenty of eye candy for you.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C360B@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

<snip of Laning's movie reviews>

Regarding Resident Evil, it also had some interesting anti-hijack routines
masked as bio-hazard containment.  Particularly liked the system in the hall
leading to the Red Queen :D

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <B8D22554.3750B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Because I'm too lazy to figure this out myself (yeah, right!)

I am trying to converts old TML archives into a format that the new Mailman
archiver can use.  Here the problem.  When the messages were originally
saved, they were saved as digests with most of the header stripped of each
message.  The current header looks like this:


    Date: [day of week], [day] [month] [year] [time] [offset]
    From: Poster@domain.com <poster@domain.com>
    Subject: Subject

    [body of message]

    whitespace

    next header

I need to read the date and from lines and generate a new line and insert it
as the first line in the header so that the header looks like this:


    From poster@domain.com [day of week] [month] [day] [time] [year]
    Date: [day of week], [day] [month] [year] [time] [offset]
    From: Poster@domain.com <poster@domain.com>
    Subject: Subject

    [body of message]

    whitespace

    next header

if I can get a script to do this , it looks like we can recover all the TML
and Xboat archives back to 1995 and post them to the web.

Thanks, Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22554.3750B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8D22554.3750B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405100301.A22271@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> I need to read the date and from lines and generate a new line and insert it
> as the first line in the header so that the header looks like this:
> 
>     From poster@domain.com [day of week] [month] [day] [time] [year]
>     Date: [day of week], [day] [month] [year] [time] [offset]
>     From: Poster@domain.com <poster@domain.com>
[...]
> if I can get a script to do this , it looks like we can recover all the TML
> and Xboat archives back to 1995 and post them to the web.

What language would you like the script written in?  I should be able
to do it in Perl relatively easily, if that suits.  The only
difficulty might arise if the original headers don't *exactly* conform
to the format described.

If you send me a 100k or so sample of the archives, I will write a
script and test it out on the sample.  That way, I can check whether
any of the original headers deviate by lacking a comma in the date, or
a strangely formatted email address, or something.  I should have
a script that basically works by tomorrow.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204050006.DJD04253@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a 
>staple of SF since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.
>

Maybe I should re-read Triplanetary, and run a campaign with 
the big gun cruisers like the Chicago.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204050009.DJD04543@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

If I could have an example of both files, I'm sure I could 
write something, but it would be a Windows app.

I do this sort of thing all day long, mostly to pile things 
from spreadsheets and word documents into tables in Oracle.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <20020405100301.A22271@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B8D22C91.37518%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 4:03 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> What language would you like the script written in?  I should be able
> to do it in Perl relatively easily, if that suits.  The only
> difficulty might arise if the original headers don't *exactly* conform
> to the format described.
> 
> If you send me a 100k or so sample of the archives, I will write a
> script and test it out on the sample.  That way, I can check whether
> any of the original headers deviate by lacking a comma in the date, or
> a strangely formatted email address, or something.  I should have
> a script that basically works by tomorrow.

SAMPLE FOLLOWS:

####################################
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #999
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
Errors-To: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
Precedence: bulk


Traveller-digest       Monday, August 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 999



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: HEPlar lives!
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
OT but interesting Keith Bro. note
Re: Hudson-class Lander (GTL9)
Re: Low ship weight
Re: Grav deck plates.
Re: Low ship weight (and Grav Plates too)
Starship Combat Tweak
Re: Bureaucrats
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #998
Re: RE Squad Leader LONG
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Grav deck plates.
Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)
Off topic - Insulting Leonard
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)
Re: Slings and Outrageous Fortunes of War
Re: Andre Norton Followups...
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Cloning (was Hard Science)
BITS and delays in response
Re: The Heritage Trilogy
Re Slings

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: HEPlar lives!

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Well, how about "large" deep holes? :-)

As long as by 'large deep holes' you mean 'wider than it is deep' sure.  A
typical free trader would probably make a crater some 20-30m deep and
50-100m across.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:18:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Tom writes:

> > *cough*.  If you really want people toasting small cities with their
> > engines, go for it.  HEPlaR has a power output of roughly 15 megawatts
> > per  newton of thrust -- your average free trader, at something like 20
> > million  newtons thrust, generates the equiva
> > lent of a 50 kiloton nuclear weapon every second...
> 
> Just curious, but isn't this why most downports have landing pads separated
>  from living quarters?  Some of them with high earthwork walls? ...or am I
>  missing the point?

Yah, you're missing the point.  You have the equivalent of a strategic
nuclear weapon going off every time a ship lands or takes off, this will
destroy the landing field in a single landing (in fact, it will also tend to
destroy the ship) and destroy the entire port in short order.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:15:54 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: OT but interesting Keith Bro. note

Just thumbing through Cinescape magazine and noticed an article about a
new Dune novel. It's being written by Brian Herbert (son of Frank) and
Kevin J. Keith. Since this book (actually first of a trilogy) is a
prequel to the classics, it might have some further insight into the
classic Dunes Imperial politics, maybe fodder for 3I politics?
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:23:37 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hudson-class Lander (GTL9)

>> OK, OK, we'll play "Flight of the Valkyries" while we approach, "Will ye
>no
>> come back again" after we land.
>>
>
>Awwww, not "Flight"  It's been done to death, can't we have something
>original?


Isn't that *Ride* of the Valkyries?

Although I seem to remember that the direct translation is "The Valkyries"
so it might well be a cross-pond translation thing.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:29:09 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Low ship weight

>I read somewhere (I think it was an issue of Challenge) that if cargoes of
>greater than standard density (ie 1 ton per cubic meter) were carried, the
>ships performance should be re-calculated if it was likely to take the
ships
>mass over 15 tons per cubic meter.


Yep.

But then, I tend to recalculate the ship's performance every time we change
the cargo load, so I'm more twisted than most players.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:31:39 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Grav deck plates.

>But if you are along a wall (or the floor or ceiling) you'll *also*
>stay right there unless some force moves you.


Under AG you're pushing against the floor with enough force to accelerate
you upward at 1 gee, at least momentarily. Unless you can adjust that force
perfectly to match the decrease in AG (which you probably can't if it's
instantaneous and comes without warning) then you'll push yourself off.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:35:40 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Low ship weight (and Grav Plates too)

>Got me thinking:  Is 20 tonnes per displacement ton the maximum deck
>loading?


Even if it is then it's possible to build a specialised cradle to spread the
weight of particularly heavy cargoes. The maximum deck pressure wouldn't be
much of a problem for properly packaged and loaded freight, but it could be
if the players are trying to recover a relic grav tank or something....


>On a vaguely related thread, suppose you drop a huge cargo container onto
>you deck plate from a height of a few metres.  How much damage would it do?
>Would it screw up the grav plate?  (I ask purely from interest of course,
my
>character would never actually have done such a thing to her ship...)


Well, taking current ships and aircraft as a basis, that's would utterly
knacker your floor, probably requiring expensive repairs and maybe even
making a hole. A couple of metres is a long way to fall under 1g. The grav
plate? Well, I'd say that's pretty much up to the GM.


NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:31:26 -0500
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Starship Combat Tweak

First, I want to thank everyone who answered my Starship Combat
question.  All of you really made me think about the nature of starship
combat at very close ranges.  There were several thoughts that I
probably would not have come up with on my own (in fact, I know I
wouldn't have thought in some directions at all).

Thanks.

You've been a big help to my game.

I LOVE this freaking list.



RANGE MODS:

Anyway, I've simplified the thoughts, and I've come up with a simple
addition to CT starship combat.

I'm just adding two different range modifiers to the to hit throw.
These were derived from your comments and the two range modifiers
already printed in the CT rules.

Range to target 5,000 km or closer?     +2 DM

Range to target 2,000 km or closer?      +5 DM



HEX/RANGE BAND SIZE:

For the close ranges in this boarding scenario, I've changed the
hex/range band size to 1,000 km each.



LENGTH OF ROUND:

To coincide with the internal combat going on inside the ships, I'm
changing the starship combat round for this scenario to a 6 second
round--just like the personal combat round I'm using.

I'll probably run 3-5 rounds inside the ship, then 3-5 rounds outside,
keeping everything constant.



ROF:

Looking at T4's Starships book (imagine that!  I used it!), I see that
most lasers on small scale ships have an ROF of 10 (for the 10 minute T4
combat round).  With extra power, those all can easily be boosted to 100
ROF.

Doing the required math, those weapons will fire exactly once per 6
seconds (with the ROF 100 figure).

That's perfect.  In this very close range scenario I have, these two
ships carving away at each other should turn out to be a meatgrinder of
an encounter.

That's exactly what I want.

Thanks again, to all.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:37:30 -0700
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Bureaucrats

Of course, with your average group of PCs, this will last for about five
minutes before someone decides to show the offending bureacrat his "special
authorization", aka the business end of a firearm...



- --------------
Kelly St.Clair   "At last we will reveal our pants to the Jedi.  At last we
kellys@efn.org    will have revenge."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:40:52 -0700
From: "Mike Linsenmayer" <mlinsenmayer@symantec.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #998

Can someone send me a e-mail if they see this in the post...
Still having problems posting....
mlinsenmayer@symantec.com

I have some new artwork.. not good as Jesses though  ;)

http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace/art/picture-b.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:43:15 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: RE Squad Leader LONG

>>Note that lasers, can paint targets for guided munitions at darn near any
>>range in SL terms. (Unless you've got 16 boards stuck end to end. <grin>)
>
> Thus, if a squad can keep a LOS on a target, that target
> could be hit almost all the time at TL 9 (roll 11- on 2D?).


35 hits out of 36 with laser-guided munitions?

Are you American, by any chance? <g>

NB
- --
(Before y'all flame me - I'm kidding...)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:44:44 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

>> Just curious, but isn't this why most downports have landing pads
separated
>>  from living quarters?  Some of them with high earthwork walls? ...or am
I
>>  missing the point?
>
>Yah, you're missing the point.  You have the equivalent of a strategic
nuclear weapon going off every time a ship lands or takes off, this will
destroy the landing field in a single landing (in fact, it will also tend to
destroy the ship) and destroy the entire port in short order.


Indeed.

Which is why (okay, I use the TNE rules) I assume ships take off under
contra-grav (air bouyancy) and occasioanl low-thrust puffs from the engines
for directional control.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:52:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Nick Bradbeer writes:
 
> Indeed.
> 
> Which is why (okay, I use the TNE rules) I assume ships take off under
> contra-grav (air bouyancy) and occasioanl low-thrust puffs from the engines
> for directional control.

Oh, certainly, as long as you have ships with both CG and HEPlaR, and only
use HEPlaR in space, you're fine -- however, standard designs frequently
don't have contragravity.  HEPlaR is a fast way to commit suicide in any
sort of atmosphere, or near the ground.  Incidentally, contragravity is
capable of doing directional control without any use of thrust anyway.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:57:23 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

>Oh, certainly, as long as you have ships with both CG and HEPlaR, and only
use HEPlaR in space, you're fine -- however, standard designs frequently
don't have contragravity.  HEPlaR is a fast way to commit suicide in any
sort of atmosphere, or near the ground.  Incidentally, contragravity is
capable of doing directional control without any use of thrust anyway.


Well, every single ship in Brilliant Lances (that's all the classic designs)
has contra grav, except for the Lab Ship, Donosev, Chrysanthemum and Aurora.
All those four are unstreamlined, and thus not atmosphere-capable.


I thought CG could only change the magnitude of your gravitational vector
(ie reducing it by up to two orders of magnitude), not affect the direction
of it. If it can affect the vector's direction, has it not just become a
thruster plate?

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:07:52 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Grav deck plates.

At 01:03 AM 8/23/99 -0800, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
> > That was my solution in a (forgive me, I have sinned... I was young,
> > naive...) Star Trek game once.  After the bad guys transported to our
> > bridge.  Hold on to the console, and just flip the AG on and off.... as
> > everyone floats off the deck and then crashes back down.
>
>Not-so-silly question.
>
>Why would they "float off the deck"?
>
>Seriously, this is *the* single biggest error in damn near every movie,
>TV program and even *story* that deals with zero-g.
>
>If you are in the middle of a compartment in zero g, you'll stay there
>unless some force pulls or pushes you out of that location.
>
>But if you are along a wall (or the floor or ceiling) you'll *also*
>stay right there unless some force moves you.
>
>Removing gravity *won't* make you "float up". But your muscles mighgt
>push you off gently.

Well, at that particular moment, the bad guys (can't remember who they were
now...Cardassians maybe...)  had just transported aboard and were in the
process of running around the bridge disarming the crew, shouting at
people, and generally swaggering a lot (on second thought, maybe they were
Klingons...).  It seemed to me that chances were good that most of them
were in the process of taking a step as the gravity shut off, and would
thus be flung away from the floor.  Even those that were standing perfectly
still, would still automatically shift their weight when the gravity was
released and be unable to regain balance quickly enough to avoid falling.

IMHO, this would certainly not work against any Traveller combatants, who
are routinely trained for Zero-G operations, but remember that these were
_Star_Trek_ villains... And at least until Star Trek 6, there's been almost
no evidence that anyone in that world could fight in Zero-G.  Well, Spock
maybe....

           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
                          defend to the death your right to say it."
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
                                           -- Albert Einstein
for PGP public-key and
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:15:00 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)

Tascelt@aol.com posted:
>
>Damn it Jesse!!  Tim and I have been suggesting shirts to you for years and

>NOW your're going to do it?
>
>TAS

Ah, but *I* made a critical success roll on my Sucking Up skill.

;-)

David

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:01:45 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Off topic - Insulting Leonard

Phil Kitching wrote:

>Interesting.
>
>I thought asterisks represent bold or emphasis.
>
>Also that underscores represent underlining, which represents italics.

*Bold*

_Underline_

/Italic/

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Nick Bradbeer writes:
 
> I thought CG could only change the magnitude of your gravitational vector
> (ie reducing it by up to two orders of magnitude), not affect the direction
> of it. If it can affect the vector's direction, has it not just become a
> thruster plate?

Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only be
used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
local force of gravity.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:44:44 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

>> I thought CG could only change the magnitude of your gravitational vector
>> (ie reducing it by up to two orders of magnitude), not affect the
direction
>> of it. If it can affect the vector's direction, has it not just become a
>> thruster plate?
>
>Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only be
used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
local force of gravity.



Where does it say this? I only have access to CT and TNE canon.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:52:27 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)

Replying late to this thread, but I'd _dearly_ love to see:

 Scout base on Gas Giant Moon
 Starport Cover Outtake
 Empress Marava in port
 Highport with Free Trader



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:26:30 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Slings and Outrageous Fortunes of War

>Actually, it sounds more like a human powered trebuchet...


Yes, but they did exist..
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:17:52 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Andre Norton Followups...

>Also, you can go *nuts* trying to tie Norton's books together. I
>believe that Catseye (or one of the other books dealing with Forerunner
>artifacts) has a passing reference to the Caverns of Arzor. Which ties
>that book/series to the Hosteen Storm books. Only problem is, in the
>latter series, Earth has been rendered uninhabitable. Yet I can show
>links equally good to books like The Last Planet. :-)

The Last Planet was the ***first*** real book I ever read, as well as the
first novel and first science fiction book.  I've always imagined that the
books take place against a multi-millennium long background.  Humans
discover spaceflight by time mining the secret of spacetravel from Foreunner
technology. They start exploring space and colonizing. Eventually they meet
other races and eventually supplant them almost entirely. Over the centuries
the location of Earth is entirely forgotten, though the legend lives on.

If you figure that the stories are generally separated by centuries it's
much easier to accept the inconsistancie.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:41:31 -0700
From: Edward Swatschek <edjs@bitslayer.net>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

At 11:37 99/08/23 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
>gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only
>be used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
>local force of gravity.

This depends on the game system being used.  In TNE/FF&S, contragravity
simply reduced the gravitational vector over a specific volume by 99%.  In
an atmosphere, this might make the ship neutrally or positively buoyant,
but no thrust is involved - that would be provided by HEPlaR or some other
engine.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:05:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Edward Swatschek writes:

> This depends on the game system being used.  In TNE/FF&S, contragravity
> simply reduced the gravitational vector over a specific volume by 99%.  In
> an atmosphere, this might make the ship neutrally or positively buoyant,
> but no thrust is involved - that would be provided by HEPlaR or some other
> engine.
 
Um...wrong ;)  It provided 10-20% of gravitational force sideways in
TNE/FF&S.  In Striker it could provide any amount of sideways force.  I
don't know about T4 or MT.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:10:22 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Edward Swatschek wrote:
> 
> At 11:37 99/08/23 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> >Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
> >gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only
> >be used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
> >local force of gravity.
> 
> This depends on the game system being used.  In TNE/FF&S, contragravity
> simply reduced the gravitational vector over a specific volume by 99%.  In
> an atmosphere, this might make the ship neutrally or positively buoyant,
> but no thrust is involved - that would be provided by HEPlaR or some other
> engine.

In FF&S2, page 18 (gravitic vehicle design sequence):  "Most of the
force is directed parallel to the gravity field (straight up and down),
but a fraction of the lift is available to provide thrust."

This sentence is repeated almost verbatim on page 65, dealing with
thrust agencies.

Under "Reactionless Thrusters" (also page 65, FF&S2):
"...'Contragravity' at earlier tech levels can only interact with the
local gravitational field (and is hence limited to use near a planetary
surface)...."

Hope this helps....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:28:37 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com>
Subject: Re: Cloning (was Hard Science)

> Tom wrote:
> > Perhaps this is one of the reasons that cloning never took off big in the
> > 3I, Ziru Sirka, or Rule of Man.  Surely the nobility in all three Imperiums
> > wouldn't want an emperor/emperess to live forever even in cloned form.  The
> > Moot would never stand for it.  OTOH there were alot of emperors in the 3I
> > that were suceeded by assassination.  Maybe they were looking in to the
> > forbidden(?) science of cloning?
> 
> Well, other than Cleon the Mad, and Strephon the Clone, the rest of the
> Emperors who died by 'right of assasination' were all Barracks Emperors during
> the Civil War. They all died not for experimenting with cloning, but
> experimenting with crowning themselves Emperor.;-)

You're forgetting the Empress that Cleon The Not Wrapped Too Tight whacked.
<grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
                                                     Science-Fiction
Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:15:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS and delays in response

Hi all,

DISCLAIMER - Not an official statement on behalf of BITS, but an
explanation:

Some of you writing to us by email may have seen some delay in response
from BITS. Firstly, we aren't ignoring you! BITS is run by volunteers, and
at the moment we are pulling together the material for release at GenCon UK
99, preparing to run the trade stand, 3 RPGA tournaments and a number of
demonstrations, and dealing with real life(tm) (imminent fatherhood for
some people, major work projects etc). We only have a small active CORE
<grin> which means that time is being juggled.

At present, we have four books in the last stages of preparation (you've
seen 3 advertised here, ACQ being the fourth) plus three tournaments (which
require nearly the same effort), and we're also doing the usual newsletter,
2nd hand material and website...

Hopefully, once GenCon is out of the way things will calm down, and we'll
go through the non-urgent mails. if you need to contact someone at BITS
(bits@bits.org.uk) urgently, mark your subject line URGENT, or copy me (for
example). I hope to see some of you in the flesh at GenCon UK 99, maybe for
a drink at the bar, or a game at the stand or the demo area. FWIW we are
actually in two locations this year - in the trade hall, and running demos
in the balcony above (GURPS Traveller & T4 as the standards, but I'm sure
we'll get volunteers for CT, MT and TNE as ever). As ever, we're happy for
anyone who wants to volunteer to try their hand at running a game/demo.

All the best,

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
                       MiB - Marines in Battledress
   "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:22:13 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: The Heritage Trilogy

At 06:01 AM 8/23/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I started with the second one, Luna Marine. It's definitely a lot less
>jingoistic than the first, concentrating less on the UN as an evil empire
>and more on the ramifications of the "Hunters of Dawn". The "Hunters of
>Dawn" are dominate cultures that go around killing off lower tech cultures
>before they evolve enough technology to kill them. A very cool thought for a
>Traveller campaign.

Wasn't that the premise of Weber's Mutineer Moon/Armageddon inheritance
series as well?

           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
                          defend to the death your right to say it."
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
                                           -- Albert Einstein
for PGP public-key and
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:28:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Slings

>William F. Hostman wrote:
>>
>> A staff sling is essentially a hand sling on a 2m pole... and is not
>> twirled, but used exactly like an atlatl, only much easier to do
>> successfully.
>
>Actually, it sounds more like a human powered trebuchet...
>
Trebuchets keep a cup fixed to the end of the arm, and the cup remains open.

Staff slings: the sling's cup is attached by two lines (3-4 feet long is
good). One of these is fixed to the pole near the end. The other string is
terminated in a loop small enough not to fall past the first one's
fixation, but loose enough to fall off if you point the tip down. The start
position is with the staff parrallel tothe deck tip behind you, with a
loaded pocket.Generally, you then (rapidly) bring forward the staff til it
is roughly 45 degrees from parallel in front of you. The second loop lets
go normally about when you stop the swing, but the cup is lagging. When the
string lets go, several things happen, including putting a spin on the
projectile, converting that rotational velocity into linear velocity, and
also opening up the cup to actually let the projectile go.

The thing can be used while kneeling (I've done it). In a Short trench, two
guys could work it easily.

Oh, and just for reference, a golf ball can occasionally be sent  over 200
m in flat terrain by a practiced stafslinger.

William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click
interface!"
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-
533
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis
http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis    ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #999
**********************************

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--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <200204050028.DJF00683@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I expect that there will be major revisions, and additions.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:29:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:29:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204050009.DJD04543@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 4:09 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> If I could have an example of both files, I'm sure I could
> write something, but it would be a Windows app.
> 

Repeat after me

windows = hell
Bill Gates = anitchrist

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bryn Monnery)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <182.62a974a.29dca666@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405015316.02b11020@pop.mail.yahoo.com>

At 13:39 03/04/02 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 02/04/02 22:58:51 GMT Daylight Time, 
>ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:
>
>
>>TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to 
>>He4.  One
>>assumes the neutron problems have been solved.
>
>
>Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing 
>"up" to He4 :)

Protium - Protium fusion (Protium = Hydrogen-1, Deuterium = Hydrogen-2, 
Tritium = Hydgrogen-3)

Bryn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:06:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:06:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod says that Microsoft and Bill Gates are evil
<snip>

Yes, but that's what my customers use.
I used to have my head in the sand, and only worked on OS/2 
and Solaris machines.

I was unemployed for quite a while.

Then, I started chanting

By the beans of Java
I set my mind in motion...

and did the Windows dance.  And said, "I like making Larry 
Ellison rich.  Everyone buy Oracle now."

Let's not mention that I like Smalltalk, Unix, and DB/2.

ObTrav:  There has to be a similar monopoly in Imperial 
space, and everyone would buy into it, even if it didn't work 
very well.  There have to be "standards", you know.  And it 
wouldn't be the best system, or language, or database, etc. 
It would be the one that had the most ruthless marketing.  
And no Imperial law would stop it.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
In-Reply-To: <3CAA76E1.BA4A2BC6@premier.net>
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>
 <p04330105b8d0233486e4@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA76E1.BA4A2BC6@premier.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b8d2ab0aa6d7@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:28 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
>"David P. Summers" wrote:
>>
>>  At 7:41 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
>>  >"David P. Summers" wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >>  In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
>>  >>  tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
>>  >>  arrays.....
>>  >
>>  >Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
>>  >masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....
>>
>>  But the tags would be unforgeable based on the penguins DNA!  Clearly
>>  this would be justified based on the threat that penguins pose.  (How
>>  could the Imperium  claim to control their territory if penguins roam
>>  free?)
>
>Then the penguins merely graft a patch of non-penguin-waterfowl skin and
>feathers to the tag attachment point (ideally waterfowl generally
>engaged as tramp freighters or system defense birds), change the tag
>code to suit the new DNA and proceed on their marauding ways.... ;-)
>
>The struggle between measure and countermeasure is a never-ending one,
>as neither side is likely to gain lasting superiority.

But the Imperium has so many ships that they could afford to have one 
sitting anyplace a penguin might threaten the public safety!
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMELMDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Bill doesn't rate higher than apostate or a false profit, tops

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

on 4/4/02 4:09 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> If I could have an example of both files, I'm sure I could
> write something, but it would be a Windows app.
>

Repeat after me

windows = hell
Bill Gates = anitchrist

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEELNDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Must be the company that makes the Anti-Hijacking software for CT. Or
whoever made fighter craft so impotent.

I want a PA barbette on my Mk V fighter! waaaah

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

ObTrav:  There has to be a similar monopoly in Imperial
space, and everyone would buy into it, even if it didn't work
very well.  There have to be "standards", you know.  And it
wouldn't be the best system, or language, or database, etc.
It would be the one that had the most ruthless marketing.
And no Imperial law would stop it.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 18:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr  4 18:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204051011470.16403-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Tod:

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Repeat after me
>
> windows = hell
> Bill Gates = anitchrist

 Ah a man with similiar sentiments.

"Windows is not the answer. It is the problem. The answer is NO!"

"Window, just say NO!!"

 From your friendly Biased Commodore only user. <VBG>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 18:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr  4 18:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
References: <200204041157.DIF02066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404185037.009f1170@mindspring.com>

At 05:04 PM 4/4/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Classic Traveller says the default blade skill that Marines cascade to is 
>Bayonet.  For reasons of tradition, esprit de corps, inspiring confidence 
>in troops, and instilling the proper spirit of attack.  Same reasons that 
>Marc Miller had to suffer through bayonet drills when he was in the Army 
>even though the widespread opinion of the day was that bayonet training is 
>obsolete.

Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while 
desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to 
perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 19:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 19:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174808.00a7d008@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404215235.01f48c40@192.168.0.1>

At 02:56 PM 4/4/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Mark Urbin writes:
> >
> > The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF
> > since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.
>
>Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a reference _since_ Lensman, though 
>there
>certainly was one in Lensman.  In any case, it hasn't been a 'staple' exactly.

Ok, I stand corrected.  It's been around since Lensmen, and it *should* be 
a staple of SF. :-)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 19:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 19:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404185037.009f1170@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 6:52 PM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while
> desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to
> perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.
> 

In point of fact, the bayonet is more of a hazard to the soldier than an
aide.  During the last war for which we have statistics (Vietnam), more
soldiers injured themselves with bayonets than were injured by enemy
bayonets.  This is also true of WWII.

Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary weapon of the
infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  number of wounds caused by
bayonets was extremely small.

The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed civilians.  It has little or
no military application, contrary to popular mythos.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 19:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr  4 19:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
References: <200204041157.DIF02066@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020404185037.009f1170@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c1dc54$e81469a0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Berry" <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while
> desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to
> perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.

Tell that to the British Para's...

The don't seem to feel a war is a war until they have done at least one
Bayonet Charge...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <20020405003207.32532279F6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CAD22FC.313506AE@earthlink.net>

Walt Smith posted:
> 
> They had a lot of factors working against them.  Nothing
> inside the ship was any kind of secureable except the computer
> room, since no one was supposed to be aboard except
> triple-cleared company employees.  They had a traitor in their
> midst, and a secret agenda going on from their corporate masters.
> A small group of wage-slave technicians running a cargo ship
> were way out of their league, and had an appropriate casualty
> rate.

And how would you rate the Colonial Marine unit in "Aliens"?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>

I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler
had a Derringer attached to some kind of mechanical
"holster". The device was worn somehow on the forearm
and pushed the gun into the hand.

Can anyone tell me what this device was and where
I could find details on it?


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404231607.01f78e88@192.168.0.1>

At 10:13 PM 4/4/2002 -0600, David Smart wrote:
>I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler
>had a Derringer attached to some kind of mechanical
>"holster". The device was worn somehow on the forearm
>and pushed the gun into the hand.
>Can anyone tell me what this device was and where
>I could find details on it?

Secret Service Agent James West (Wild Wild West TV show) had one too.
They loved gadgets on that show.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404231607.01f78e88@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000501c1dc5d$168ea180$2f7de40c@loki>

At 10:13 PM 4/4/2002 -0600, David Smart wrote:
>I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler

All I found are references to 'spring-loaded arm rigs' and a lot of fan
fiction to the Magnificent Seven in my google search.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B8D28F8B.37603%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405024811.02b7a0e0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon says:
>Makes me think that a lot of navigators will get their
>training doing Imperial x-boat, and then change career to fly
>for a private broker or a merchant line that contracts to
>brokers.

Nice touch it.  I'll use it.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Navigator skill affecting jump duration & accuracy (was Re:
 economic crash)
In-Reply-To: <002d01c1dbf2$1d1b9500$52200050@matt>
References: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405024958.02b7bec0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon suggested a rule for dicing precise jump duration in plus or 
minus hours from the nominal of precisely seven days.

My memory of the 'Starship Operators Manual' from DGP isn't detailed 
enough, but they had rules on this that I really liked.  It started to give 
Navigation skill a useful purpose besides making sure somebody aboard had 
at least one level of it.  Sadly, my copy of SOP is among my trove of 
mislaid Favorite Traveller References that _still_ evades detection.  If 
only I could offer the other inanimate objects in my house a bounty for 
dropping a dime on the missing trove.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C360B@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405025738.02b7da30@pop.wizard.net>

At 03:34 PM 4/4/02 -0800, you wrote:
><snip of Laning's movie reviews>
>
>Regarding Resident Evil, it also had some interesting anti-hijack routines
>masked as bio-hazard containment.  Particularly liked the system in the hall
>leading to the Red Queen :D
>
>Jesse

Yeah, that was medieval.  In an extremely high tech way.  I think 'Resident 
Evil' has quite a bit of useful source material for RPGs, but I didn't want 
to get into spoilers.

Oh.  Jesse, my wife and I both loved the Britannia site, thanks.  The 
interior shots are all _perfect_ for use to illustrate a Traveller yacht 
(well, maybe not the bridge interior, lol).  I am completely unskilled at 
doing such things but I thought it would be great to take the ones with 
portholes and show stars or a planet from low orbit or something outside.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 00:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Fri Apr  5 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c1dc7a$655e8a60$f000a8c0@imogen>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor
> training.

I used to work a a company that tried for (and got) ISO 9000/9001
certification: it was easy-peasy!

1) Have a documented procedure for everything
2) Make sure all staff know where the latest  versions  of  those
   documents are (ie. where on the PC server)

The fact that we didn't actually follow those  procedures  (close
scrutiny would have revealed they were unworkable anyhow)  didn't
seem to matter.

Its just a case of understanding the game.



> Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.
> 
> "You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections &
> standards"

Make a "saving throw" against Admin skill to understand the  game
and avoid any significant impediments.  In MT terms ...



    To comply with local business standards.
    Routine, Admin and EDU, 1 hour (safe)

    Referee: If not familiar with local customs (ie. offworlders)
             then  increase  difficulty  to  Difficult.   Trading
             is limited until this task is passed successfully.




Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 00:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 00:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>

Any of you guys know Ruby?
http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/index.html

A guy I respect _very_ much is presently raving about it.
http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2001/10/25/ruby.html

It might as well be Sanskrit to me, I haven't looked at it at all.  But if 
Colin likes it, I like it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 00:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 00:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMELMDJAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>

BillGatus of Borg.  Bah.  I shake my head, bereft of words.

Anyway.  Back when I was doing tech support on the phones for AOL, I talked 
a guy about three times who would always pepper his conversation with how 
little respect he had for Gates, and "I knew that guy back when he went 
from user group to user group selling his stuff out of the back of a 
station wagon."  It was amusing as hell, though I didn't let that guy know 
I thought so or we would have got way off topic for a long time.  I hope 
you get a laugh out of that one.

ObTrav:  In the early 1100s, is there anyone who occupies a position 
analogous to Bill Gates in our own society today?  In terms of being 
notoriously rich and geeky and merciless and rich and reviled and admired 
and rich and ubiquitous and rich and not even Ministry of Justice bullets 
can stop him.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 04:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 04:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204051219.DKC00217@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary 
>weapon of the infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  
>number of wounds caused by bayonets was extremely small.
>

Bayonets were used successfully in the Falklands.

Also, if I find someone at the end of my bayonet, it's 
unlikely that they'll be "wounded".  It's equally unlikely 
that they'll make it to the aid station.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 04:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Fri Apr  5 04:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCMEEHDOAA.andy@exeus.com>

Try

	http://www.cia.gov/spy_fi/item21.html

and

	http://home.earthlink.net/~backslash/

They're called Sleeveguns and cost $295.

Andy Brick
andy@exeus.com
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.344 / Virus Database: 191 - Release Date: 02/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 04:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr  5 04:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B6C@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
> Sent: 05 April 2002 13:20
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
> 
> 
> Tod Glenn says
> >Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary 
> >weapon of the infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  
> >number of wounds caused by bayonets was extremely small.
> >
> 
> Bayonets were used successfully in the Falklands.

True, but the Bayonet Charge(s?) in the Falklands produced few
casualties from bayonet wounds. The principal aim of a bayonet charge is
to cause the flight or surrender of the defenders of a position. One of
the Argentinians on the receiveing end of the charge recounted in a
documentary some years later that as a 19 year old conscript the sight
of 40 or so strapping Para's charging at him with fixed bayonets,
screaming as they came, filled him with such terror that he couldn't
move... he was fixated on the fact that those guys coming at him wanted
to stick whacking great holes in him, up close and personal. As soon as
the initial terror subsided he (and now I can't recall exactly which)
either threw down his weapon and ran for his life, or threw down his
weapon and surrendered.

To quote Corporal Jones in Dad's Army... "Cold Steel, Sir. They don't
like it up 'em!"

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 05:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Fri Apr  5 05:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
References: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DAV33JYS74UiXodol1500008c87@hotmail.com>

Christian in Action has a picture of the sleeve gun assembly used by Bob
Conrad in Thee Wild, Wild West at

http://www.cia.gov/spy_fi/item21.html

The man who made the original prop was (is?) selling them to people sans
firearm.  His website at sleevegun.com is now under construction, but you
can see Google's cache of his site at

http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:_T42pJBhY0UC:sleevegun.com/+sleevegun&h
l=en&ie=UTF8

This site includes a picture of an arm rig.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com

> I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler
> had a Derringer attached to some kind of mechanical
> "holster". The device was worn somehow on the forearm
> and pushed the gun into the hand.
>
> Can anyone tell me what this device was and where
> I could find details on it?
>
>
> David
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 05:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr  5 05:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405134530.5456.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> Repeat after me
> 
> windows = hell
> Bill Gates = anitchrist

Although my Dante is rusty and my personal sentiments
don't agree...

"Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."

To Paraphrase...

"Better to trust your livlihood to Billy Bob's Window
World than to not make any living at all."

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 06:42:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri Apr  5 06:42:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
References: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt> <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se> <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt> <5.1.0.14.2.20020402201259.009ec960@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CADB846.8070706@gmx.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

 > At 07:40 PM 4/2/02 +0200, you wrote:
 >
 >> Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
 >> food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
 >> predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
 >> for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world
 >> under
 >> the ice.
 >
 >
 > Jedi Jellyfish Under The Ice!  I love it!
 >
 >
Yes...but they're probably easy meat for the Imperial Penguin Corps.

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump. 
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <F120FrbDLuPOuIGGsMq000028cf@hotmail.com>

From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>

     "I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler had a Derringer 
attached to some kind of mechanical "holster". The device was worn somehow 
on the forearm and pushed the gun into the hand."

     "Can anyone tell me what this device was and where I could find details 
on it?"


Mr. Smart,

     My admittedly brief Google search turned up little more than a lot of 
"Magnificent Seven" fan-fics.  Fiddling with the search words should bear 
fruit however.
     Another pop culture reference for such a device cn be found in 
Harrison's "Deathworld" trilogy.  The Pyrrhans(sp) are outfitted with a 
contraption that slams a very large, hair-triggered, pistol into their fists 
at the slightest twitch.  The hero, Jason din Alt mentions how learning to 
use the damn thing nearly breaks his hand.
     I've also seen gizmos tucked up one's sleeve that deliver playing 
cards.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <200204051219.DKC00217@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D2FF19.37640%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 4:19 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Bayonets were used successfully in the Falklands.

Define 'successfully'.  How many casualties were produced by bayonets?
> 
> Also, if I find someone at the end of my bayonet, it's
> unlikely that they'll be "wounded".  It's equally unlikely
> that they'll make it to the aid station.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3611@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Just to set things straight, it was John Groth that recommended the
Brittania site [tips Diet Pepsit to John <'cause it's too early for beer ;)
>]
Jesse

<snip>
Oh.  Jesse, my wife and I both loved the Britannia site, thanks.  The 
interior shots are all _perfect_ for use to illustrate a Traveller yacht 
(well, maybe not the bridge interior, lol).  I am completely unskilled at 
doing such things but I thought it would be great to take the ones with 
portholes and show stars or a planet from low orbit or something outside.

--Laning

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3cadc22c.4909163@post.demon.co.uk>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:

>The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed civilians.  It has little =
or
>no military application, contrary to popular mythos.

... I wouldn't go that far...  Firstly, bayonets were primarily a
_defensive_ weapon:  they stopped infantry being overrun and trampled
by cavalry.  ("Form square!")

Secondly, they *could* be the means by which infantry could turn an
indecisive firefight into a crushing rout of the enemy.
Unfortunately, bayonet charges like this only really worked if the
enemy was already weak and disorganised.  Against untrained native
levies in colonial warfare, bayonets were far more effective than
muskets.  They used less ammunition, too...  Unfortunately, that
tended to give those armies involved in colonial warfare an
over-inflated view of the benefits of the bayonet, which would be
disastrous once they faced the firepower of Western armies on a modern
battlefield.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <20020405134530.5456.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405074625.009ee8d0@mindspring.com>

At 05:45 AM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:

>Although my Dante is rusty and my personal sentiments
>don't agree...
>
>"Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."

That's Milton, from "Paradise Lost."

Dante's best line came from The Inferno... the inscription on the gates of 
Hell.

"I AM THE WAY INTO THE CITY OF WOE
I AM THE WAY TO A FORSAKEN PEOPLE
I AM THE WAY INTO ETERNAL SORROW

SACRED JUSTICE MOVED MY ARCHITECT
I WAS RAISED THERE BY DIVINE OMNIPOTENCE
PRIMORDIAL LOVE AND ULTIMATE INTELLECT.

ONLY THOSE ELEMENTS TIME CANNOT WEAR
WERE MADE BEFORE ME, AND BEYOND TIME I STAND.
ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."

I want that on the door to my gaming room.. :)

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <F120FrbDLuPOuIGGsMq000028cf@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405160321.61448.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>      Another pop culture reference for such a device
> cn be found in 
> Harrison's "Deathworld" trilogy.  The Pyrrhans(sp)
> are outfitted with a 
> contraption that slams a very large, hair-triggered,
> pistol into their fists 
> at the slightest twitch.  The hero, Jason din Alt
> mentions how learning to 
> use the damn thing nearly breaks his hand.

My favorite of this type is from the Alan Cole/Chris
Bunch _Sten_ series.  (Admittedly light scifi and
light reading, but as a diversion, I enjoyed it.) 

In any case, the protagonist, Sten, has a sheath
biologically implanted in his forearm.  The weapon is
grown crystals and form fitted to his hand.  The blade
tapers to molecular thickness.  A simple twitch and
the blade slides into his palm ready for use.

(Yes, I can hear the suspenders snapping/shattering,
but I did warn you that it was light scifi)

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405074625.009ee8d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020405161906.71131.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> That's Milton, from "Paradise Lost."

Thanks for the editing.  My classics are a bit rusty. 
That's what too much reading of Dr. Seuss does.


> Dante's best line came from The Inferno... the
...snippit...
> ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."
> 
> I want that on the door to my gaming room.. :)

When I play a Chief Engineer, I want it on the door to
engineering.  No need to lock it up, the passengers
will stay away without any security keeping them out. 
(Unless the passengers are Player Characters, then
Satan himself couldn't keep them from trying.)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051636.DKL02665@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

There was a Harry Harrison series of novels that also had an 
arm rig that figured prominently in the storyline.

IMHO, it looks bulky, uncomfortable, and likely to blow your 
fingers off. That, and the weapon that pops out is unlikely 
to do more than draw return fire (or put bullet holes in your 
computer at an inopportune moment). You've got maybe two 
shots, and the weapon is likely to be something weak.

If you're allowed to carry concealed, carry a regular 
pistol.  After all, even if the 9mm doesn't impress him with 
the first shot, I'm sure the remaining rounds in the magazine 
will.

That, and carry a second pistol somewhere else on the body 
for a NYPD "speedload".

ObTrav:  The easiest holdout to design would be a laser.  You 
could isolate the powerpack and electronics at some other 
location under the clothing, run a fiber optic cable to the 
hand area, contrive a trigger (ring pull?), and have the exit 
optics somewhere over the back of the hand.  If you made a 
fist, and curled the fist inward, the ring would pull the 
trigger and the beam would fire over the back of the hand.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204051641.DKL03427@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>Define 'successfully'.  How many casualties were produced by 
>bayonets?

If I win, I win. Casualties or not.

I will admit that a bayonet is a dangerous thing to have 
around.  The first casualty I saw in the Gulf War to arrive 
at the forward aid station during the ground war was a 
bayonet casualty.  A Bradley gunner was wearing his LBE open, 
and the bayonet fell out and stuck, blade up, in the back of 
his seat.  At some point, he ducked down and slammed the 
hatch overhead.  Suddenly, he noticed something cold, hard, 
and far too long up his backside.  So he stood up, and opened 
the hatch, and let the whole world know it.

I told him that he'll never be able to tell his kids about 
the war.  He spent the next two weeks lying on his face, 
while the nurses changed the packing several times a day 
without painkillers.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051643.DKL03760@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug brings up Dante
<snip>

Oh, I think that Marlowe's Mephistopheles was better:

Hell hath no limits
Nor is circumscribed in one self space
For where we are is Hell,
and where Hell is, there we shall ever be



________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 09:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (KevinC)
Date: Fri Apr  5 09:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
References: <20020405003205.D8ED7279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> I am trying to converts old TML archives into a format that the new Mailman
> archiver can use.  Here the problem.  When the messages were originally
> saved, they were saved as digests with most of the header stripped of each
> message.

Tod,

Will the new TML archive be accessible by web search engines and
bots/spiders?

If yes, then you need to do something to protect the email addresses of
anyone whose posts are in the archive.

Otherwise "harvesters" will grab them all, and spam the good ( still
active) ones.

-- 
KevinC               Pentapod's World of 2300AD
kevinc@cnetech.com   http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2303/
                     http://go.to/PentapodsWorld


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 09:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 09:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051636.DKL02665@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEMIDJAA.tml@downport.com>

A .45 Colt Derringer is two shots at point blank. By the time you pull your
Beretta out of your shoulder holster, kung foo kitty has already broken your
neck at that range. Also good in a knife fight, or after you have emptied or
lost your Colt .45

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

IMHO, it looks bulky, uncomfortable, and likely to blow your
fingers off. That, and the weapon that pops out is unlikely
to do more than draw return fire (or put bullet holes in your
computer at an inopportune moment). You've got maybe two
shots, and the weapon is likely to be something weak.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 09:27:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 09:27:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <20020405.092414.-73051.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

> --- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> > "ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."
> > 

Back in 1986 I added the above quote to our office computer system when I
was its oporator. I ran closing, mid and end of month stuff. Well, the
quote freaked out the Buyer, Accounts receivables, and a couple early
imput girls who didn't want to log on the next morning. Fortunately for
me I came in before the boss.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051758.DKN05522@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>
>A .45 Colt Derringer is two shots at point blank.

Have you seen how much a .45 Colt derringer weighs?  It's a 
steel brick.  Much better just to whack someone in the face 
with it in your fist.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:02:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:02:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051801.DKN05830@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>Well, the quote freaked out the Buyer, Accounts receivables, 
>and a couple early imput girls who didn't want to log on the 
>next morning. Fortunately for me I came in before the boss.
>

I've gotten called on the carpet for more than one e-mail sig 
that people "don't get".  Some of them were completely 
unoffensive, as far as I was concerned.

Sometimes there's a lot to be gained if none of your co-
workers know what your hobbies or prior careers were.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
References: <200204051758.DKN05522@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CADEAEB.10501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Have you seen how much a .45 Colt derringer weighs?  It's a 
> steel brick.  Much better just to whack someone in the face 
> with it in your fist.

Deal! I'll let Swordy whack me in the face with it and shoot you. Betcha 
I get up first ;-)

And they're not all that heavy...I thwacked myself on the head with my 
father-in laws' 357 Derringer once, digging in the closet for some 
shoes. A .45 isn't going to weigh a lot more than a .357 one.

(he had it in a coat pocket of one of his suits. Bruce digging in closet 
"Ah! There they are <KLONK> What the...!!!" <dig dig> "Jeez what's doing 
with a pocket cannon like that!??")

Seriously, (so to speak) DiNiro makes a rig like this in Taxi Driver out 
of a drawer slide and duct tape.

(if the women don't find ya handsome...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk> <001001c1dc2b$d13fac40$a6ecff3e@k5k9u6>
Message-ID: <3CADEB80.1080907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

nellkyn wrote:

> 
> Please stop it and make it go away! I've just suffered a BSI surveillance
> visit today. Traveller is where I get away from the real world.
> 
> Obtrav
> Would there be a standards institute in the 3I?
> Would ISO 9000 appeal to the Vilani sense bureaucracy?


One sentence that engenders fear and panic in every starship owner's 
heart: 'Bwap compliance inspector.'

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <3CADEAEB.10501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEMJDJAA.tml@downport.com>

The classic version weighs about the same as an empty coffee mug (15 oz). I
carry a mug with varying amounts of coffee in it all day long, to I'm
already in shape ;)

I suppose a light-weight could opt for a .44 at half the heft (7.5 oz) and
still be able to best a knife wielding punk.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Johnson

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Have you seen how much a .45 Colt derringer weighs?  It's a
> steel brick.  Much better just to whack someone in the face
> with it in your fist.

Deal! I'll let Swordy whack me in the face with it and shoot you. Betcha
I get up first ;-)

And they're not all that heavy...I thwacked myself on the head with my
father-in laws' 357 Derringer once, digging in the closet for some
shoes. A .45 isn't going to weigh a lot more than a .357 one.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3611@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405134053.00ab8e50@pop.wizard.net>

At 07:24 AM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Just to set things straight, it was John Groth that recommended the
>Brittania site [tips Diet Pepsit to John <'cause it's too early for beer ;)
> >]
>Jesse

I stand corrected.  John, thank you very much.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:52:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:52:29 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 9:22 AM, KevinC at kevinc@cnetech.com wrote:
> Tod,
> 
> Will the new TML archive be accessible by web search engines and
> bots/spiders?
> 
> If yes, then you need to do something to protect the email addresses of
> anyone whose posts are in the archive.
> 
> Otherwise "harvesters" will grab them all, and spam the good ( still
> active) ones.

I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>
>The classic version weighs about the same as an empty coffee 
>mug (15 oz).

Yes, and it's about half the weight of a Glock.  Half.

That, and unless we're right across the table, it's not as 
easy to hit something as one might think.  If we're as far 
apart as 15 feet, the average shooter is going to miss the 
majority of their shots at that distance (hopefully, Mr. Cook 
has given you some learned lessons).  You get two tries at 
what traditionally is 25% hits, and I get how many?

If you miss, well, I get to keep shooting.

If you're much closer than that, and I see you start the 
draw, it's a short distance to close and hold your arm down 
while I knee you in the groin.

I think that derringers were meant for shooting under the 
table without warning, or for shooting people in the back 
without warning.  The ones I've tried (American Derringer) 
had a tendency to turn in the hand between shots, and take 
time to orient correctly in the hand from the draw (perhaps 
why you'll need the sleeve gadget).

You could, of course, skip the derringer altogether and get a 
true "sleeve gun", which I'm sure Tod will have a legal 
comment on.  

ObTrav: there isn't much "law level" commentary on concealed 
weaponry. Does anyone have house rules on this?

I am less likely to find a derringer on your person with a 
hand search, especially if I'm careless.

I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed 
(in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so 
legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through 
their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears 
off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police 
detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out 
of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a 
no no to begin with).  


________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:07:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:07:29 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:51:56AM -0800
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com> <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405120614.B19040@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:51:56AM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

I would think the GNU Mailman would do this for you...

# $email = &obfuscate_email($email)
#        or
# @emails = &obfuscate_email(@emails)

sub obfuscate_email
{
  my @email = @_;
  my $email;

  foreach $email (@email)
  {
    $email =~ s/@/ at /g;
    $email =~ s/\./ dot /g;
  }
  if ($#email)
  {
    return @email;
  } else {
    return $email[0];
  }
}

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only kind of freedom that the mob can imagine is freedom to annoy
and oppress its betters, and that is precisely the kind that we mainly
have.                                                   --H.L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:09:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:09:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:21:18AM -0500
References: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020405120835.C19040@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:21:18AM -0500, laning wrote:
>
> Any of you guys know Ruby?

I'm afraid it doesn't do a whole lot for me.  I like perl, python,
scheme and C.  I'm sure I would like Common Lisp.  SmallTalk never did
a lot for me, and for awhile I thought C++ was cool--but I no longer
do.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There isn't a single useful thing that we in the CS community can come
up with that some @&%! marketer can't abuse.                 --devphil

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <20020405120614.B19040@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B8D3378F.376BE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 11:06 AM, Robert A. Uhl at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:51:56AM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>> 
>> I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.
> 
> I would think the GNU Mailman would do this for you...
> 
> # $email = &obfuscate_email($email)
> #        or

I haven't looked at the old archives to see how email is buried in there.
In the new lists, all email addresses point to the list address, and any
spammer who want to post to that will have to subscribe to the list.  Then
they'll get all the tml email -- counter spam!
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:15:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:15:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051914.DKP06560@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>SmallTalk never did a lot for me

You must like strong typing.  I learned to love programming 
again.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mole)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3378F.376BE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8D33890.5666%mole@solsec.org>

on 4/5/02 11:14 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> I haven't looked at the old archives to see how email is buried in there.
> In the new lists, all email addresses point to the list address, and any
> spammer who want to post to that will have to subscribe to the list.  Then
> they'll get all the tml email -- counter spam!
> --

"I see your spam and raise you several hundred counter spams"

-- 
Mole


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204051057330.14455-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, laning wrote:
> Any of you guys know Ruby?
> http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/index.html

I've been looking at it; it looks pretty nice.  Most criticisms I've seen
about it tend to point to Python as a better language, though.  As a
result, I'm learning them both at pretty much the same time.  Hard to make
an informed choice without knowing both, after all.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204051914.DKP06560@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:14:24PM -0500
References: <200204051914.DKP06560@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405123244.A19291@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:14:24PM -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> >SmallTalk never did a lot for me
> 
> You must like strong typing.  I learned to love programming 
> again.

I rather think you must mean _static_ typing.  Strong typing means
that expression are guaranteed to be type-safe (either at compile or
run time).  This is the case in nearly every language _but_ C, C++ and
assembler.  Weak typing means, for example, that you can try to add 14
to a string.  The results are generally unexpected.

Static typing means that a variable's type is checked once, at compile
time, and that it never changes.  This is the case in C.  Dynamic
typing is common in most other languages, including Python, SmallTalk
and Scheme.

I like dynamic strong typing.  Weak typing is too error-prone for my
tastes.  Hence I like Scheme a lot.  E.g.:

(define x 3)
(set! x "I am a happy string")
(set! x (lambda (y) (+ (sqrt y) (expt y 2))))

Are all legal.  However, strong typing means that:

(define x "This is a string")
(* x 7)

Is illegal, because * does not handle strings.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
RFC 882 put the dot in .com.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
References: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CADFCD0.6000801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Mark Urbin writes:
> 
>>The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF 
>>since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.
> 
> 
> Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a reference _since_ Lensman, though there
> certainly was one in Lensman.  In any case, it hasn't been a 'staple' exactly.

"Space Viking" H. Beam Piper

"The Forever War" mentions something like this, IIRC, but it's been a 
*long* time since I read it.

Many of the Flandry series, by Poul Anderson mention troopers using 
melee arms. I specifically remember one passage about a big trooper in 
battle dress wielding a 'collapsium-plated battle axe'.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051937.DKR02226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I can add 14 to a String in Smalltalk -- it's just that I'll 
get the message

"String does not understand +"

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:38:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:38:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 10:57 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> Yes, and it's about half the weight of a Glock.  Half.
> 
> That, and unless we're right across the table, it's not as
> easy to hit something as one might think.  If we're as far
> apart as 15 feet, the average shooter is going to miss the
> majority of their shots at that distance (hopefully, Mr. Cook
> has given you some learned lessons).  You get two tries at
> what traditionally is 25% hits, and I get how many?

As a note, it should be mentioned that a derringer's intrinsic accuracy is
the same as for any short barreled pistol.  It's the form factor that is the
problem.  If you put a derringer or any other short barrel handgun in a
Ransom rest, they can shoot remarkably well.

Personally, I think they are pretty useless except as a totalaly last
result.
> 
> I think that derringers were meant for shooting under the
> table without warning, or for shooting people in the back
> without warning.  The ones I've tried (American Derringer)
> had a tendency to turn in the hand between shots, and take
> time to orient correctly in the hand from the draw (perhaps
> why you'll need the sleeve gadget).

Assuming the sleeve gadget works.
> 
> You could, of course, skip the derringer altogether and get a
> true "sleeve gun", which I'm sure Tod will have a legal
> comment on. 

'Disguised' guns are a tricky proposition when dealing with ATF.  For
example, someone developed a holster that holds a derringer, and the
derringer can be fired from within the wallet shaped holster.

"Here's my wallet, sir, Just don't hurt me.  BLAM!  BLAM!"

ATF says that such a wallet and gun constitutes a disguised firearm and must
be registered (I believe and an AOW -- Any Other Weapon $5 transfer tax).
Gun guns, pen guns and other such weapons classify as AOWs.
> 
> ObTrav: there isn't much "law level" commentary on concealed
> weaponry. Does anyone have house rules on this?

Coming right up
> I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
> (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
> legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
> their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
> off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
> detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
> of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
> no no to begin with).

Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.
> 
> 
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <3cadc22c.4909163@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B8D33EA8.376DB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 7:42 AM, Stephen Tempest at tml@stempest.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
>> The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed civilians.  It has little or
>> no military application, contrary to popular mythos.
> 
> ... I wouldn't go that far...  Firstly, bayonets were primarily a
> _defensive_ weapon:  they stopped infantry being overrun and trampled
> by cavalry.  ("Form square!")

But what about Elan!

They were supposedly very offensive as well.  In an infantry charge with
musket you could get off one round and then it was 'in with the bayonet'.

The problem is that neither side really like the bayonet.  We it comes right
down to it, the attackers rarely actually thrust into their opponents. Look
at the reports of the number of actual bayonet wounds in the Napoleonic
wars, or even the American civil war.  The other side usually runs before it
gets to that, or the attackers stop short.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:47:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:47:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEMMDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Sorry to get you going on this stuff. I've been comparing a derringer to a
knife or a fist. 15 feet is as good as a mile with a derringer (at least for
me). This is more of the Body Pistol argument. It is not a serious weapon,
it is bit of muscle when you don't have a serious weapon. It is a bang when
they expect a punch. Not having any aiming abilities*, I'd never try to
shoot further than a yard.

*Forex: on Thanksgiving I was treated to about 50 shots from a small 9mm
handgun. My target was a swinging 2 liter bottle of water at about 10-12
yards. It was still full of water when I got done. Give me a snowball,
though, and things are different ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

"Swordy" says
>
>The classic version weighs about the same as an empty coffee
>mug (15 oz).

Yes, and it's about half the weight of a Glock.  Half.

That, and unless we're right across the table, it's not as
easy to hit something as one might think.  If we're as far
apart as 15 feet, the average shooter is going to miss the
majority of their shots at that distance (hopefully, Mr. Cook
has given you some learned lessons).  You get two tries at
what traditionally is 25% hits, and I get how many?

If you miss, well, I get to keep shooting.

If you're much closer than that, and I see you start the
draw, it's a short distance to close and hold your arm down
while I knee you in the groin.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <3CADEB80.1080907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <001001c1dc2b$d13fac40$a6ecff3e@k5k9u6>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405145001.00a7b1d8@urbin.net>

At 11:22 AM 4/5/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>nellkyn wrote:
>>Please stop it and make it go away! I've just suffered a BSI surveillance
>>visit today. Traveller is where I get away from the real world.
>>Obtrav
>>Would there be a standards institute in the 3I?
>>Would ISO 9000 appeal to the Vilani sense bureaucracy?
>One sentence that engenders fear and panic in every starship owner's 
>heart: 'Bwap compliance inspector.'

That's a keeper!  Bruce, would you mind joining Doug in my RPG sig quote file?



>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"It is both foolish and wicked to teach the average man who is
not well off that some wrong or injustice has been done him,
and that he should hope for redress elsewhere than in his own
industry, honesty, and intelligence." -- Theodore Roosevelt,
"Review of Reviews", January 1897
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>
>Sorry to get you going on this stuff. I've been comparing a 
>derringer to a knife or a fist.

I hope never to be that close to someone when something bad 
happens (then again, consider my luck).

We used to do fighting with rubber knives and chalk, with 
black t-shirts.  From about three paces, I never failed to 
mark someone from the gut to the collar before they could 
clear leather.  That was someone who knew what the exercise 
entailed, and I am by no means a martial artist, or an expert 
with a knife.

Bad things happen really fast. 
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod says:

>I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

Thank you for that.  :->

Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
usenet newsgroups.

Just a thought.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204051937.DKR02226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:37:55PM -0500
References: <200204051937.DKR02226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405130711.B19291@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:37:55PM -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
> I can add 14 to a String in Smalltalk -- it's just that I'll 
> get the message
> 
> "String does not understand +"

(define x "A string")
(+ 14 x)

In guile:
  standard input:51:1: In procedure + in expression (+ 14 x):
  standard input:51:1: Wrong type argument: "A string"
  ABORT: (wrong-type-arg)

  Type "(backtrace)" to get more information.

In umb-scheme:
  Error: Bad argument type to primitive in: (+ 14 x)

In other words, the same thing as in SmallTalk.  Both Scheme and
SmallTalk have strong dynamic typing.  C, OTOH, has weak static
typing.  The C fragment:

char* string = "fellow";
string--;
string = "fool";

Is completely legal, and completely wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Bother,' said Pooh, `Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock
phasers on the Heffalump; Piglet, meet me in transporter room three.'
                                                    --Robert Billing

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:08:38PM -0500
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com> <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020405130926.C19291@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:08:38PM -0500, laning wrote:
> 
> Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
> site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
> then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
> for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
> usenet newsgroups.

I hate that--Yahoo does it.  It means that information is hidden from
all but members, and what had been a public resource is hidden behind
a wall.  Given that there are other, better ways to prevent address
harvesting, I cannot support such a move.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A lady came up to me on the street and pointed at my suede jacket.  `You
know a cow was murdered for that jacket?' she sneered. 
I replied in a psychotic tone, `I didn't know there were any witnesses.
Now I'll have to kill you too.'                        --Jake Johansen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051207400.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, laning wrote:

> Tod says:
> 
> >I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.
> 
> Thank you for that.  :->
> 
> Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
> site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
> then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
> for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
> usenet newsgroups.
> 
That'd be great, as long as my password could be changed by me to
something I wouldn't forget.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <20020405130926.C19291@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051217390.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:08:38PM -0500, laning wrote:
> > 
> > Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
> > site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
> > then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
> > for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
> > usenet newsgroups.
> 
> I hate that--Yahoo does it.  It means that information is hidden from
> all but members, and what had been a public resource is hidden behind
> a wall.  Given that there are other, better ways to prevent address
> harvesting, I cannot support such a move.

Have you ever been tracked down from a public resource?

I have.  

If they want to read our posts they can always sign up.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 11:52 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> We used to do fighting with rubber knives and chalk, with
> black t-shirts.  From about three paces, I never failed to
> mark someone from the gut to the collar before they could
> clear leather.  That was someone who knew what the exercise
> entailed, and I am by no means a martial artist, or an expert
> with a knife.

I'd just like to point out that there is a big difference between practicing
with knives in the dojo and actually using one one someone.  Knife fighting
is a brutal and intimate form of combat.  A single knife thrust or slash is
rarely incapacitating or even debilitating.  To actually stop an attacker
with a knife, you need to be prepared to use it multiple times.  There will
be blood, and possibly screaming.  You will be right in your opponents face.
An he will probably not be cooperating.

The human body is also much better defended against a knife than a firearm.
There are lots of bones to get in the way:  ribs, arms and leg bones, etc.
As an experiment, try thrusting and/or slashing an animal carcass.  Better
if it's hanging on a cord so it's free to swing and twist.  it's a lot
harder than it seems.

Also, most knives are not really up to the challenge of combat.  They are
rarely sharp enough or strong enough to be really effective.  It's hard to
slash through clothing and then deep into meat.  It's hard to thrust between
ribs and not break a point or have the knife twist out of you hand,
especially if there's a lot of blood on everything (including you).

Working in a hospital, I saw a lot of people wounded by knives walk into the
emergency room under their own power.  A few people wounded by handguns did
the same.  I never saw anyone who had been shot by a rifle in a major body
part walk in, they were wheeled in.

I like knives.  I was a professional custom knife maker for several years.
My preference was for 'fighting' knives.  But if I had to pick a weapon, a
knife would be way down my list (after guns, baseball bat, etc.)

A knife is really best as an offensive weapon, provided you are ruthless
enough to use it.  It excels in the surprise silent kill on an unsuspecting
opponents, preferably attacked from behind.  But only if you don't have
something better.

A friend, who worked with Pheonix project while in the service in the 1960s
related to me the story of his one knife encounter (after many beers).  This
person is a large, powerful and rather competent former member Special
Forces.  Attempting to kidnap a local individual for interrogation by his
CIA masters, things got out of hand.  He attempted to use a Randall number 1
(a particularly well regarded combat knife) to end the conflict.  His
opponent was all of 5'5" and of slight build.

Ken reported that he stabbed the individual at least a dozen times.  Blood
was everywhere and the target was screaming like a banshee and fighting like
a tiger.  They lost their grip on the bloody man, who promptly ran off.  He
was captured several days later.

Makes one think.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:33:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:33:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051217390.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:19:15PM -0800
References: <20020405130926.C19291@4dv.net> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051217390.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020405133255.A19481@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:19:15PM -0800, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> Have you ever been tracked down from a public resource?

Yeah--but 'twas a good thing in my case.  And, indeed, it doesn't
bother me--the same can be done with Google and a few minutes in the
white pages, generally.

The development of the Internet into a group of walled-and-gated
communities is not, IMHO, a good thing.

I _really_ hate being forced to choose between registering (and having
who-knows-what happen to my data) and not accessing what is
essentially public information.  After all, anyone can sign up and
archive the list anyway.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Umm...  Excuse me.  I think the network's down?'
`A communications disruption can only mean one thing...invasion.'
          --Lee Maguire, teaching us how to make people go away

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204052034.DKT01667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

So it's a matter of "do you enforce typing" and "when do you 
enforce it".

I like mine done, but only at the last minute.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:35:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:35:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D34A21.37700%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 12:08 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the
> site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address
> then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy
> for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than
> usenet newsgroups.

And would the users bitch.  oh yes.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:32:47PM -0800
References: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405133914.A19510@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:32:47PM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> A knife is really best as an offensive weapon, provided you are ruthless
> enough to use it.  It excels in the surprise silent kill on an unsuspecting
> opponents, preferably attacked from behind.

http://armor.com/2000/catalog/item723.html

Although the picture is not nearly as nice as in the previous edition.
It's actually a beautiful glittering foot-long weapon ideal for that
sort of work.  Not something that has any use in a knife-fight.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
           --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204052034.DKT01667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:34:14PM -0500
References: <200204052034.DKT01667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405134034.B19510@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:34:14PM -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
> So it's a matter of "do you enforce typing" and "when do you 
> enforce it".
> 
> I like mine done, but only at the last minute.

Which is what SmallTalk and Scheme both do.

Now, there are advantages to SmallTalk.  To tell te truth, I just
never cared over-much for its syntax or standard library.  It didn't
do a whole lot for me.  But everyone's different.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Cape Cod Salsa--somehow that's just not right.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:51:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:51:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <3CADFCD0.6000801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405151454.02882b30@pop.wizard.net>

Bruce Johnson:

>Many of the Flandry series, by Poul Anderson mention troopers using melee 
>arms. I specifically remember one passage about a big trooper in battle 
>dress wielding a 'collapsium-plated battle axe'.

Collapsium, eh?  Plated, you say"  Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Beware those lesser-quality battle axes sold by others.  'Collapsium 
plating' can never substitute for the reliable, never-needs-sharpening, 
100%-pure Unobtainium (tm) battle axe sold only by special and exclusive 
arrangement with the only certified maker of battle axes that His Imperial 
Majesty's Marine Corps buys from.

(Video of two people in different colored battle dress facing each 
other.  The one in green battle dress just stands there, arms folded, while 
the one in black battle dress is hacking away uselessly at his chest with a 
battle axe.  You can see pieces of the axe's plating flaking off and 
spinning in every direction each time it strikes the armored chest.)

Voiceover:  "Has this ever happened to you?"

Voiceover:  "Don't wind up like this poor guy who bought from cheap imitators!"

(Video cuts to the person in black battle dress, now laying stretched out 
and unmoving on his back, arms collapsed on the ground as if they had been 
held up defensively before collapsing.  The green battle dress is standing, 
facing camera, arms folded again, one foot on the torso of his vanquished 
enemy.  A camouflage-handled battle axe is sunk into the neck of the purple 
battle dress, all the way to the haft.)

Voiceover:  "This sad story has been repeated all too often by 
others.  Don't be embarrassed like them!  Get the only genuine, solid 100% 
Unobtainium battle axe sold in the Marches today and enjoy the pleasure and 
satisfaction of winning all your melees from now on!"

(Video of man in black battle dress.  Helmet is swung back on its hinges so 
we can see the wearer's head.  A good-looking professional model with a 
cr150 haircut and perfect teeth, smiling and basking in the congratulations 
and envious looks from his squadmates who are crowded around him.)

Squadmate 1:  "Wow, Sergeant, I've always heard how great pure Unobtainium 
battle axes are, and now I know someone who _has_ one!"

Squadmate 2:  "Sergeant Jones, you _always_ seem to have the best gear.  No 
wonder you always get the girls when we're on leave."

Squadmate 3 (glumly):  "Well I guess it isn't _me_ who will be killing the 
most enemy in close combat anymore."

(Very tall, distinguished looking man in black battle dress walks up from 
Jones' side, helmet also completely open.  He has a colonel's insignia on 
his chest.)

Colonel:  "Well, Sergeant Jones, I can see _why_ you were just recommended 
for meritorious promotion.  You're the only one here savvy enough to have 
bought a genuine, pure 100% Unobtainium battle axe."

(Colonel pulls his Unobtainium axe from his side.  Close up as he holds it 
in front of his face to admire and proudly display it.)

Colonel:  "It reminds me of the same 100% Unobtainium battle axe I got just 
before I was commissioned 25 years ago and _still_ with me today.  It has 
never let me down."

(Colonel turns to Jones again and puts his free hand on Jones' shoulder 
with a smile.)

Colonel:  "Son, it looks like it will be smooth sailing for you."

(Cut to graphic of axe, captioned with 'The ONLY exclusive pure 100% 
Unobtainium (tm) battle axe!'  Net, comm, and xboat sales information 
listed below that for the market the ad is running in.)

Voiceover:  "Isn't it about time _you_ make the right choice and get the 
only pure 100% Unobtainium battle axe in the Marches?"

(Graphic remains as a translucent overlay.  Behind it we see Jones in full, 
black battle dress, helmet sealed laying waste to one green-suited foe 
after another as they run up to him attacking wildly but he easily 
penetrates each one's armor in one try and they throw their arms up and 
collapse in death.)

(Graphic overlay remains, video cuts to closeup of someone in green battle 
dress, helmet open.  He looks terrified.  He addresses the camera as it 
slowly zooms to close up.)

Terrified Trooper:  "That guy must have an _Unobtainium_ battle axe."

Terrified Trooper (resigned and glum):  "I sure wish _I_ had one of those 
but it's too late, now."

(Camera pulls back to show Terrified Trooper charging Jones as the pile of 
bodies in front of Jones grows.)

--Laning
I almost wrote it up as Chinese forklift spam but for bonded superdense 
battle axes instead.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <20020405.125213.-122687.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:01:18 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
>
> 
> Sometimes there's a lot to be gained if none of your co-
> workers know what your hobbies or prior careers were.

Oh, I like this...

How about a character doing the same?
Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her past, and late in
a game spring it on your group.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:53:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:53:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
Message-ID: <200204052051.DKT03530@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>I never saw anyone who had been shot by a rifle in a major 
>body part walk in, they were wheeled in.
>
Which brings me around full circle.  I remember being told by 
an older NCO not to carry a fighting knife, as he had killed 
numerous men at close enough range to see their last meal on 
their teeth.  But he always used a RIFLE.  From a few feet 
away (CAR-15 on full auto, as he told it).

This man had been in Vietnam, had his lower jaw shot off, and 
walked three days without medical care to be retrieved.  He 
was put out of the service for some time, but after getting 
bone implants was allowed to reenlist in the Army. We were 
all afraid of him (1SGT Lydick).

He said he never, ever killed anyone with a knife OR a 
pistol.  Always the rifle.

Haven't killed anyone, but I've killed a lot of deer. Made 
the mistake "once" of trying to use a .44 Mag on a 180 pound 
whitetail (a bit heavy, yes) near Savannah, GA.  Two hits, 
from 35 yards away, one through the left side into the lungs 
and out the other side, one as he turned (into the diaphragm 
forward and out through the front).  I had to follow him for 
two miles. (240gr Sierra JHP, 24 grains IMR 4227, your 
mileage may differ).

Not one deer that I've shot "once" with a .308 (180 grain 
Nosler Ballistic Tip) has taken more than two steps before 
falling.  And that was up to 150 yards away (no, I don't make 
long range shots on deer).

The .308 is not a "powerhouse" round, but it is a real rifle 
round.

ObTrav: Question about penetration and damage.  There 
is "proof" now that the green tip will penetrate most body 
armor at urban combat ranges BUT, if it hits an unarmored 
person, it is less likely to overpenetrate than standard 9mm 
ball at the same distance.  How does that work?  One would 
think that penetration is penetration, and if it goes through 
a vest, then you aren't even standing there.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204052054.DKT03893@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning writes
<snip nice commercial for unobtainum battle axe>

Might need a handle made of handwavium.  That way, you can 
kill people and do your handwaves in one stroke.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204052058.DKT04431@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  writes
>Oh, I like this...
>
>How about a character doing the same?
>Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her 
>past, and late in a game spring it on your group.
>

I've mostly rolled my characters in private, and I've never 
really shown my sheet to others.

How many of you saw Ronin?  That was a nice part where DeNiro 
asks, "What color was the roof of the boathouse?".  I didn't 
really like the movie too much (seemed aimless), but it was 
Traveller-esque.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several 
places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and 
they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone 
in the place.

Fear and loathing ensues.  At one place, when my first wife 
left, there was a meeting held "about John" without my 
knowledge, to address "a potential problem".  Nothing ever 
happened, and I've never been one to make threats or act out.

When I retired "the rifle" to the local SWAT team (they 
thought it was Christmas), there was much rejoicing at work.

I went out and bought another one.  But it's not like the 
place I work for now really needs to know that.  You really 
are treated as a second-class citizen, just for owning a 
firearm.

I don't know how Tod does it, or Mark, or some of the other 
NFA holders.  People would jump out of their skins here if I 
told them I was going to buy an NFA weapon.

ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because 
people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.



________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <B8D33EA8.376DB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3cadc22c.4909163@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405155359.028b0110@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn points out:
>The problem is that neither side really like the bayonet.  We it comes right
>down to it, the attackers rarely actually thrust into their opponents. Look
>at the reports of the number of actual bayonet wounds in the Napoleonic
>wars, or even the American civil war.  The other side usually runs before it
>gets to that, or the attackers stop short.

Yeah.  If _everyone_ in those mass formations that charged each other 
actually fought when they were in contact with the enemy, casualty lists 
for battles in those eras would have been even more tragic.  And the 
battles would have been a heck of a lot shorter.

It definitely did happen in some units, some times.  But my vision of most 
of those clashes is that most of the infantrymen were busy trying to keep 
anything from stabbing them or shooting them.  More concerned with staying 
out of harm's way than inflicting harm.  Which completely matches human 
nature.  This vision is one of the few ways I can reconcile the statistics 
we have for battles in those times.  How can so many men who are fighting 
each other with nasty weapons be in such close proximity for so long and 
not have most of them mortally wounded or dead?  The fact that there are 
many instances of units actually being slaughtered in close contact only 
serves to make the more usual case stand out more starkly.

Which is a good thing, because I generally have tears pouring silently down 
my face whenever visiting ACW battlefields (I live in Northern Virginia, so 
I've been to a lot of them) or the time I went to Waterloo.  Even more 
death would just make it worse.  So much bravery, so many lives, people 
trying to just survive or people willing to kill and die for their 
beliefs,  the right and the wrong, all wasted.  Funny how so much wasted 
life and folly can make you proud to be in the same human race as them.

Since opposed planetary assaults are usually last on the list of the 
military options in the 57th century, that probably means that most major 
'battlefields' are naval battles fought in space.  What parks and museums 
should we expect from them?

--Laning
"This story shall the good man teach his son,
  And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
  From this day to the ending of the world,
  But we in it shall be remembered..."
--'Henry V' by William Shakespeare


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon points out, then Tod Glenn remarks:
> > I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
> > (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
> > legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
> > their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
> > off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
> > detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
> > of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
> > no no to begin with).
>
>Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.

And (again) what would Freud say?  :->

I doubt most societies in the Imperium will be any different.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:23:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:23:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <198.4e08185.29df6f8d@aol.com>

--part1_198.4e08185.29df6f8d_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, 
anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
  -Ken Murphy-

--part1_198.4e08185.29df6f8d_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_198.4e08185.29df6f8d_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:26:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:26:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>
References: <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net>

At 04:25 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, laning wrote:
>John Kwon points out, then Tod Glenn remarks:
>> > I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
>> > (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
>> > legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
>> > their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
>> > off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
>> > detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
>> > of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
>> > no no to begin with).
>>Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.
>And (again) what would Freud say?  :->

Probably the same thing.  Fear of weapons is a sign of sexual disorder.



>I doubt most societies in the Imperium will be any different.

-------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"The self is not something that one finds. It is
something that one creates." - Thomas Szasz
-------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <198.4e08185.29df6f8d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162512.00a6d940@urbin.net>

Instead of splitting wood, it's designed to crack open combat armor.

Sharper, denser...not to be wielded by the He-Man Muscle Workout dropouts, 
or those without strength augmenting exoskeletons...

At 04:22 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:
>  And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, 
> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
>  -Ken Murphy-

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence.  Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <20020405133914.A19510@4dv.net>
References: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405163130.03930bc0@pop.wizard.net>

Bob Uhl quoteth thusly:
>"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
>[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
>            --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

"Guns don't kill people.  Bullets kill people."  -humorous bumper sticker


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>Yeah.  If _everyone_ in those mass formations that charged 
>each other actually fought when they were in contact with 
>the enemy, casualty lists for battles in those eras would 
>have been even more tragic.

Actually, combat was far deadlier in the age of sword, on a 
percentage basis (not counting that you probably would die of 
infection if merely wounded).

Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.  
Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally 
ensued.

We've talked about it before, but the Dupuy curve shows 
weapon lethality shooting through the ceiling while 
battlefield deaths keep going down.  We're scattering, 
running, etc.  And we're not willing to engage face to face, 
human against human (what is a Predator with Hellfire, 
anyway: a one-way killing machine).

But catch a few thousand men who, after running a few hundred 
yards in armor, are now too exhausted and demoralized to 
properly defend themselves, and....

I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the 
survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of 
war.  People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or 
they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.  
Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their 
army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full 
of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in 
their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything 
except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message 
across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you 
have to do.

ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their 
opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like 
we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?

I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to 
nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough 
missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their 
ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on 
the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay 
waste to an advanced industrial society?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D358F8.3771D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:06 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several
> places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and
> they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone
> in the place.

What can I say.  Oregon.
> 
> Fear and loathing ensues.  At one place, when my first wife
> left, there was a meeting held "about John" without my
> knowledge, to address "a potential problem".  Nothing ever
> happened, and I've never been one to make threats or act out.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <200204052051.DKT03530@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405163356.03932ae0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn, after relating the combat advice of a seriously hard-core First 
Sergeant, then says:
>ObTrav: Question about penetration and damage.  There
>is "proof" now that the green tip will penetrate most body
>armor at urban combat ranges BUT, if it hits an unarmored
>person, it is less likely to overpenetrate than standard 9mm
>ball at the same distance.  How does that work?  One would
>think that penetration is penetration, and if it goes through
>a vest, then you aren't even standing there.

I don't know what green tip exactly means.  Is it more likely to deform 
upon initial penetration?  That will help it to veer, tumble, and otherwise 
do a poor job of continuing straight out the other side.  If it means the 
so-called Teflon bullet, then I've no idea what's going on with 
that.  Slice one open lengthwise and see what you can see about the details 
of its sectional density.  Maybe that will be illuminating.  Or maybe they 
have lower muzzle velocity, but just enough to penetrate standard body 
armor at less than ten yards given their fancy jacketing.

IMTU, you can usually buy all kinds of fancyshmancy ammo and make your gun 
much more effective at the job the ammo is tailored to.  Something that 
Striker and following books got partly into.  But MTU goes way past the 
number of ammo choices that would make a Tractics die hard deliriously 
happy.  Like the man said,  Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018043091.7096.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the 
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of 
> war.
<snip> 
> It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message 
> across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you 
> have to do.

Historically, it didn't work very well.  Wars are not notably more (or less)
common today than in the past (this implies that nothing works very well).
> 
> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their 
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like 
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?

Mostly because MAD is alive and well in the Traveller Universe.  It's not as
easy as with the US and Soviets pointing 10,000 nuclear weapons at one another,
but a fullscale war could easily depopulate everything within a sector of the
spinward marches, on all sides.  It's very hard to prevent a jump-capable fleet
from laying waste to a world.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405164402.03931ec0@pop.wizard.net>

>I don't know how Tod does it, or Mark, or some of the other
>NFA holders.  People would jump out of their skins here if I
>told them I was going to buy an NFA weapon.
>
>ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because
>people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.

John, quit this world and this job and move to Tod's Traveller 
Universe.  You'd love working on the high port at Regina.  :->

You'd probably want to _marry_ Kelly, lol!

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:50:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:50:28 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMENBDJAA.tml@downport.com>

That was only one campaign in Joshua. They didn't do as they were told and
they continue the fight to this day.

Most times you see the winners killing the armies and enslaving/absorbing
the strong while leaving the weak to be plundered by lesser foes. Also very
effective.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

[snip]  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Knife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <200204052051.DKT03530@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D35CA4.3772F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 12:51 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> ObTrav: Question about penetration and damage.  There
> is "proof" now that the green tip will penetrate most body
> armor at urban combat ranges BUT, if it hits an unarmored
> person, it is less likely to overpenetrate than standard 9mm
> ball at the same distance.  How does that work?  One would
> think that penetration is penetration, and if it goes through
> a vest, then you aren't even standing there.


Au Contraire.  Penetration has to do with cross-sectional density, hardness
of the projectile and velocity.  A bullet with good penetration can become
very unstable when transiting media, particularly tissue.  I suspect that
the M855 green tip his weight distribution such that at a given rate of
twist, it starts to yaw severely when it transits into tissue.  IIRC, the
M855 is longer than the old M198 and Mach's equation shows that once the
bullet starts to tumble, projectile length is a dominant factor in bullet
retardation.  In the case of simple armor penetration, the armor material is
not think enough or pliant enough for yawing to be a factor.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405164402.03931ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D35D23.37730%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:51 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

>> ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because
>> people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.
> 
> John, quit this world and this job and move to Tod's Traveller
> Universe.  You'd love working on the high port at Regina.  :->
> 
> You'd probably want to _marry_ Kelly, lol!
> 

"An armed society is a polite society"- RAH

I always found it amusing to see Jeff Cooper quoting Heinlein.

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D34A21.37700%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405165320.039342f0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod, almost presciently, points out:

>And would the users bitch.  oh yes.

Indeed.  I think it's already started.  :->

To all:  I'm glad I advanced the idea here, because we got to have the 
feedback on how unpopular it is before the idea had a chance to waste 
anyone's time further.  And because it's now _me_ you can suspect of being 
a closet totalitarian out to subvert your right to privacy instead of 
thinking our erstwhile Listmom had anything to do with it.

I'd be happy to live with that arrangement, but only because I think I've 
come to know the Listmom well enough to realize there is _no_ danger of 
Listmom doing anything even slightly like not respecting our privacy.  And 
it would only be necessary to go past the firewalling when you want to 
access the archives, which isn't often.  Basically, I'd just go there once, 
FTP all the archives, and have them around on my local hard drive for much 
more quick and convenient use forever afterwards.

But I would be most _unhappy_ with that arrangement if creating it caused a 
rift in the TML community.  Definitely not worth it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <20020405.135958.-122687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:22:21 EST MurfNMurf@aol.com writes:
>    And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, 
> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
>   -Ken Murphy-

The handles made of Penguin bone!
The heads diamond grit plated!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <20020405.135958.-122687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <B8D35F30.3775F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:59 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
>> And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin,
>> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
>> -Ken Murphy-
> 
> The handles made of Penguin bone!
> The heads diamond grit plated!

Wouldn't penguin bone be kind of small.  How about oosik?  Then you get the
pleasure of explaining just where this unique handle material comes from.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>
 <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>

Mark Urbin:
>At 04:25 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, laning wrote:
>>John Kwon points out, then Tod Glenn remarks:
>>> > I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
>>> > (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
>>> > legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
>>> > their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
>>> > off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
>>> > detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
>>> > of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
>>> > no no to begin with).
>>>Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.
>>And (again) what would Freud say?  :->
>
>Probably the same thing.  Fear of weapons is a sign of sexual disorder.

:->  LOL.

I was thinking more like "they like touching their surrogate a great 
deal".  I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival 
response.  Unreasoning and disproportionate fear, and especially 
incapacitating fear, is a different matter and Freud would probably say a 
sign of some disorder.

Anyway, the TML has seen more than enough virtual ink spilled on 
gun-control-related issues.  Let's not go there.  I only meant my Freud 
remark as very light humor.  Please excuse the distraction.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:06:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:06:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <B8D35D23.37730%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405164402.03931ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170735.03959740@pop.wizard.net>

>"An armed society is a polite society"- RAH
>
>I always found it amusing to see Jeff Cooper quoting Heinlein.
>
>Tod

Well, I wouldn't want to learn my politics from either of them.  Too 
dictatorial.  I'll stick to the first for science fiction and the second 
for shooting techniques.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:08:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:08:30 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <B8D358F8.3771D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051404360.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

> on 4/5/02 1:06 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several
> > places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and
> > they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone
> > in the place.

OK, color me clueless, but-- if you go to someone's house on a SHOOTING
trip, wouldn't you expect them to have GUNS?

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh.

> > Fear and loathing ensues.  At one place, when my first wife
> > left, there was a meeting held "about John" without my
> > knowledge, to address "a potential problem".  Nothing ever
> > happened, and I've never been one to make threats or act out.

And this was while you were still married, right?  Man!!!!!

They were concerned about my ex-husband at my workplace for a while, but
that was because they knew the breakup was not friendly. 

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>

>Actually, combat was far deadlier in the age of sword, on a
>percentage basis (not counting that you probably would die of
>infection if merely wounded).

But I do count that.  And, as you go on to point out, the biggest factor of 
all...
>Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.
>Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally
>ensued.
>
>
>ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
>opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
>we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
>I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
>nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
>missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their
>ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on
>the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay
>waste to an advanced industrial society?

Well, we're sortakinda talking about 'Victorians in space' and that sort of 
warfare is barbaric and just bloody unsporting, old boy.  Besides, if all 
the worlds end up getting nuked, where the heck are the players going to play?

In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear 
devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and 
convincing reasons for it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D361DF.37767%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:32 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> Actually, combat was far deadlier in the age of sword, on a
> percentage basis (not counting that you probably would die of
> infection if merely wounded).

I've never seen any good statistics.  Was it really, man-for-man deadlier?
I would have thought most casualties came from the pursuit stage, where
doubtless or progenitors were much more blood thirsty.  An disease was by
far the biggest killer of soldiers, at least until WWII.
> 
> Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.
> Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally
> ensued.

Yes, the pursuit.  What you've been saving your cavalry for.
> 
> We've talked about it before, but the Dupuy curve shows
> weapon lethality shooting through the ceiling while
> battlefield deaths keep going down.  We're scattering,
> running, etc.  And we're not willing to engage face to face,
> human against human (what is a Predator with Hellfire,
> anyway: a one-way killing machine).

I'm going to have to read "Understanding War" again.  It's been too long.

> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> war.  

I'm not sure that's true any more.  Call for no quarter and the enemy is apt
to adopt a DIP attitude and fight to the last man.  Care to fight a hundred
Camerons?  Hard on your won troops morale.

If you treat you captives well, there more of an inducement to surrender.
Than you really only have to polish off the leadership.

> People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.
> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

Well, I wouldn't call the OT an accurate history in the modern sense.  The
greatest empire were forged by armies that accepted the surrender of their
foes, and absorbed their culture.
> 
> It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message
> across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you
> have to do.

When the Germans marched triumphantly through Paris after the Fraco-Prussian
was, that scene was burned into the minds of every Frenchman.  Then followed
Versailles, which made WWII possible.  We win WWII and turn loose the
Marshall plan.  Anyone think we'll be going to war with Germany soon?
> 
> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
> 
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their
> ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on
> the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay
> waste to an advanced industrial society?


Nuke a few worlds and you'll have you enemy screaming "Remember Altair 7" or
whatever.  Start nuking my worlds like that, and I'll decide I can never
make peace with you, that I must fight to the last man, and burn two of your
worlds for every one on mine you destroy.  It's a bloody calculus that's
bound to backfire.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <20020405.141338.-122687.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:58:04 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> 
> I've mostly rolled my characters in private, and I've never 
> really shown my sheet to others.

Right, sheets are private.

I'm talking about a group setting, you're into your game, and out of the
blue [on que with the GM] a persons character reverts to his former
career, be it military, psycho, war flashback, librarian for that matter,
which the group has no idea of until the characters turned loose by a
code word, light, smell, whatever.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D3629C.3776C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 2:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear
> devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and
> convincing reasons for it.

MAD
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:07:07PM -0500
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net> <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020405152015.A19842@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:07:07PM -0500, laning wrote:
>
> I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.

Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
However, it is important not to stare at the enemy because he may sense
the stalker's presence through a sixth sense.
  --US Army Field Manual 21-150 Chapter 7 "Sentry Removal"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <20020405.142533.-122687.3.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 14:03:28 -0800 Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> on 4/5/02 1:59 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com 
> wrote:
> >> And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial  cousin,
> >> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? 
> What?
> >> -Ken Murphy-
> > 
> > The handles made of Penguin bone!
> > The heads diamond grit plated!
> 
> Wouldn't penguin bone be kind of small. 

*** Bonded Superdense Penguin bones ***

> How about oosik? 

Say what??? What's Oosik??

Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <20020405.142533.-122687.3.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <B8D36663.37773%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 2:25 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> 
>> How about oosik?
> 
> Say what??? What's Oosik??
> 

A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
bone from a walrus penis.  See
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html

"I am the walrus.  Koo Koo Kachew!"
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <20020405.143525.-122687.4.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:20:15 -0700 "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:
> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:07:07PM -0500, laning wrote:
> >
> > I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.
> 
> Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
> blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
> strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.
> -- 

With me, being on the giving end is like putting on a warm fuzzy jacket
on a cold day. 
Makes me feel warm all over.
Which is why I sold my rifle.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020406083804.B25929@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear
> devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong
> and convincing reasons for it.

Near-c rock devastation is so much more effective?  <grin,duck,run>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204052240.g35MeAh25949@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

  CT stats are in an old SG (~#50?); the same one with 
the "Killer RV" for CW, IIRC :>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: bayonets
Message-ID: <200204052242.g35Mg9h26355@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
...
>The problem is that neither side really like the bayonet.  We it comes right
>down to it, the attackers rarely actually thrust into their opponents. Look
>at the reports of the number of actual bayonet wounds in the Napoleonic
>wars, or even the American civil war.  The other side usually runs before it
>gets to that, or the attackers stop short.

  But would they have run if the attackers - well, about-to-be-
pursuing infantry - _didn't_ have bayonets?  I suggest not.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:44:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:44:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <B8D35F30.3775F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020405.135958.-122687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405174141.00abfe98@urbin.net>

At 02:03 PM 4/5/2002 -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 4/5/02 1:59 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> >> And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin,
> >> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
> >> -Ken Murphy-
> > The handles made of Penguin bone!
> > The heads diamond grit plated!
>Wouldn't penguin bone be kind of small.  How about oosik?  Then you get the
>pleasure of explaining just where this unique handle material comes from.

Hmm...I would go with K'kree thighbones.



-------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"The self is not something that one finds. It is
something that one creates." - Thomas Szasz
-------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:59:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:59:28 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
References: <20020405.125213.-122687.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CAE2C1B.9030204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> Oh, I like this...
> 
> How about a character doing the same?
> Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her past, and late in
> a game spring it on your group.
>

All the time. In  Eris' Akus Moby pbem all the characters started out 
knowing nothing about each other...we only know what our characters have 
told the others, in some cases that's probably just the tip of the iceberg.

All of us have some secrets, I'm sure.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <memo.290869@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200204052058.DKT04431@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

On Ronin: it's a trick question. There are 2 boathouses.

Don't ask me how I know :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] PBeM  Refs
Message-ID: <B8D36E7D.3778F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Would all the PBeM refs who are running lists on TravellerCentral.com
please add listmom@travellercentral.com to addresses that can post to your
list.

Thanks way I can send administrative messages to all the various list
subscribers.

See the section is list admin: privacy option that starts

"Addresses of members accepted for posting to this list without implicit
approval requirement."


Thanks
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAAEMDCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn says

[Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary weapon of the
infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  number of wounds caused by
bayonets was extremely small.]

That's because if I find someone at the end of my bayonet, they're not 
going to be wounded.  They won't even make it to the aid station.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204052324.g35NOjh06085@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
>Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
...
>>ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
>>opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
>>we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
...
>In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear 
>devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and 
>convincing reasons for it.

  The K'kree seem to be the only major polity that believes in
re-surfacing planets as a matter of policy. There's all sorts
of amateurs that try and compete for the title, but mostly sanity
(MAD) or cultural constraints interfere.

        Kirurform (def'n) - application of massive thermo-nuclear
and cobalt weapon bombardment to a planet inhabited by sapient
carnivores in a traditional K'kree cultural context. Wait 500
years, seed, mow, and colonize.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <B8D361DF.37767%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405173809.0288c1a0@pop.wizard.net>

Following are excerpt from original post by John Kwon and reply by Tod 
Glenn, interspersed with your humble correspondent's remarks.
> > Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.
> > Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally
> > ensued.
>
>Yes, the pursuit.  What you've been saving your cavalry for.
Well, I agree somewhat.  I think that in classical and preclassical times, 
a lot of the vanquished were killed.  But most of them not during 
pursuit.  Most of them were slaughtered as prisoners.

As for our progenitors being more bloodthirsty than us, I doubt that I 
understand your statement quite the way you meant it, Tod.  You've 
elsewhere made plain that you think people tend to be people regardless of 
costume or nation or other things.  Like century.  Perhaps you were saying 
that during the pursuit phase of a battle, our progenitors did more killing 
than we do today during the pursuit phase?  I myself think just as many of 
us today are just as bloodthirsty and genocidal as we ever were in 
yesteryear.  The major difference is that today, the people who are trying 
to stop that sort of thing have more power than they did in the past.

(The good news is that there was a signing of a truce today between the 
rebels in Angola and the government, and the next step is the rebels will 
be turning in their arms.  While I doubt the peace will be perfect, this is 
pretty historic.  They've been fighting for a quarter of a century.  I 
admire anyone who can put the desire for vengeance behind them and live in 
peace with their former enemy.  Good luck to them.)

> >
> > We've talked about it before, but the Dupuy curve shows
> > weapon lethality shooting through the ceiling while
> > battlefield deaths keep going down.  We're scattering,
> > running, etc.  And we're not willing to engage face to face,
> > human against human (what is a Predator with Hellfire,
> > anyway: a one-way killing machine).
>
>I'm going to have to read "Understanding War" again.  It's been too long.
I recommend 'Numbers, Prediction & War' by Dupuy.  He certainly has the 
statistics there, including that charming devil, graphs.  I would provide a 
link to it on Amazon, but it would be best to go to Loren Wiseman's site at 
http://www.io.com/~lkw/ and follow his link to Amazon.  That way he makes a 
little money towards the Free The Storage Bin Seven Fund.  :->


> > I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> > survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> > war.

I can't buy into that at all, John.  Sorry.  Wars seem no more omnipresent 
today than they were in classical times.  The only relationships I would 
draw are the motivation for vengeance that connects the survivors to a mass 
slaughter, and Malthusian effects of reducing population pressure by 
reducing population.  Two forces that relationships that seem in opposition 
to each other.  Even if you massacre _all_ your enemy, even the children 
below age six, you will put yourself high on the rest of the world's 
Enemies To Destroy list.  There will come the day you are on the losing 
side in a war, and genocide is not a precedent that you'd like to have around.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <B8D3629C.3776C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:18 PM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
>on 4/5/02 2:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
>
> > In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear
> > devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and
> > convincing reasons for it.
>
>MAD


But mutual destruction is not assured.  One side would have to win a 
years-long naval campaign in order to deliver its nuclear warheads against 
all the appropriate targets.  Strephon, from the comfort of his Capital 
doesn't fear in the least for his own safety or his families in the event 
of nuclear exchange with the Zhodani.  And the Vargr Extents are such a 
hotheaded place that I cannot be convinced all the nuclear warheads that 
have been in that region for centuries were never used due to its leaders' 
very enlightened view about protecting civilization.  As the Sword Worlders 
should have nuked whoever they were ticked at many times over by now.  And 
the Aslan prize honor well above their own individual lives.  Aside from 
cultural biases toward or away nuclear warfare, there have just been so 
many _individual_ sophonts with their fingers on the button in different 
times and places that it should have happened many times by now.

And in a way, the game's authors agree with that notion.  But only in 
general.  There seems to be a lack of specific worlds that have actually 
been thoroughly nuked over to go with the general history of 
destruction.  Let me go through all the relevant canonical evidence that 
come to my (sputtering and unreliable) memory to see what each one in turn 
makes me think about how MAD affected things.

The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:
The Ancients War
Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani
Presumably the N Interstellar wars
Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night
Very early in Zhodani history
Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) from 
on Darrian

At least I think it was nukes with Darrian.  Or something just as 
devastating, so the MAD concept would still apply.

I can easily accept that enough time has passed since nuclear weapons were 
used by the Ancients that we shouldn't look for reduced populations or 
uninhabitable areas due to them.  But their war is an example of none of 
the sides being deterred by MAD.

The war against the Ziru Sirka should have left marks on various planets 
that would have been mentioned elsewhere in canon.  It is an example of 
just how geographically vast wars between interstellar powers are, and how 
that makes MAD unlikely.

There don't seem to be any worlds still showing mentionable signs of 
nuclear weapons from the N Instellar Wars.  Ditto for examples from the 
Long Night.

Zhodane's problem is so long ago that it is surprising its memory still 
leaves such an indelible impression on Zhodani culture.

Darrian seems to be a good canonical instance of nuclear warfare happening 
specifically somewhere, not just in a general way to somebody.

Oh, there's that nuclear blowup instigated by the Ine Givar but that seems 
more of an isolated terrorist incident than a war.  Or at least nothing 
that you can really apply the concept of MAD to.

I find it hard to believe there are no famous specific examples of worlds 
in the Core sector being "razed" by nukes dropped by one of the Barracks 
Emperors or wannabes.  Civil wars tend to be the least civil, as the old 
saying goes.

If one goes forward with the entire post-Assassination timeline, then it 
sure didn't take any of the sides long to start wiping out anything they 
felt like.  Which makes it harder to believe that MAD was holding other 
sophonts back during all the previous centuries of various conflicts.

This all leads me to believe that MAD isn't an effective strategy against a 
geographically _very_ dispersed opponent.  And that there is a disconnect 
between the number of specific locales in canon that have suffered nuclear 
devastation and the amount of nuclear devastation we're led to believe 
actually has happened.

There are also quite a few canonical instances of balkanized worlds or 
neighboring worlds that are on the brink of total nuclear warfare in the 
current timeline.  If such tensions have careened towards the brink so 
often in current times, how could they have been so consistently avoided 
during the pasts of all the locations that canon visits and shows us.

Hope the above was coherent enough.  I wrote it in rushed bits and pieces 
while running around the house doing other stuff.  Comments and reasoned 
debate welcome, as always.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020405152015.A19842@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>
 <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405192605.02886990@pop.wizard.net>

Bob Uhl quotes me then responds:
> > I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.
>
>Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.

Not sure who you're referring to.  There are people who have unreasoning or 
disproportionate fear of either end, true.  And I think a lot of people 
have a fear of having the things around their abode, particularly if they 
have children.  There are enough statistics about accidents in the home and 
impulsive domestic shootings to make that seem reasonable attitude, even if 
you don't fully agree with or support it.  The point being that it's 
probably a healthy survivial response to avoid having guns in the house 
just like it's a healthy survival response to avoid working in coal mines, 
but YMMV.  I am honestly sympathetic to more than one side in the gun 
control debate, and think we're at the stage where reasonable people can 
agree to disagree.  (BTW, I don't any firearms but I love shooting rifles 
and shotguns.  :-)

Hey.  Wouldn't fear of a bullet-'proof' jacket be more like being afraid of 
a jacket?  You almost fooled me for a minute there.  LOL  :->

There are members of the TML who are also proud (some, even rabid  :-) 
members of the TML Rod & Gun Club.  And there are some who are not.  The 
membership lists are unlikely to ever be altered, and I never meant to get 
into a debate over whether all people who [like/hate] guns are idiotic 
sickos or not.

I think both TML Rod & Gun Clubbers and others who are opposed can all 
agree that _some_ people who own guns, and carry guns around, are moved 
primarily by psychological need to find a surrogate or maybe just plain 
anger, and not by some other need that the rest of us agree or disagree 
about the reasonableness of.  Sometimes a cigar is _not_ just a cigar, and 
sometimes a gun is not just a gun.  Other times, they are.  My Freud remark 
was merely an opportunistic bit of humor intended to give everyone a laugh 
and lighten things up for all who read it.

I've probably prattled on longer than is necessary and will shut up now, 
and post no further on the topic.  Unless it's a joke.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020405.143525.-122687.4.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405194636.028fd650@pop.wizard.net>

>With me, being on the giving end is like putting on a warm fuzzy jacket
>on a cold day.
>Makes me feel warm all over.
>Which is why I sold my rifle.
>
>Turokan

LOL!

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020406083804.B25929@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405194804.028abec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tim Little japed:

>Near-c rock devastation is so much more effective?  <grin,duck,run>

Sounds like you'd better duck and cover.  <G>

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:46:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:46:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405192605.02886990@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D3852E.377A4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 4:41 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

This has wandered off topic.  Please move this to tml-chat or tml-guntech as
appropriate.

Rule of thumb.  There should be an ObTrav.

> Bob Uhl quotes me then responds:
>>> I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.
>> 
>> Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>> blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>> strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.
> 
> Not sure who you're referring to.  There are people who have unreasoning or
> disproportionate fear of either end, true.  And I think a lot of people
> have a fear of having the things around their abode, particularly if they
> have children.  There are enough statistics about accidents in the home and
> impulsive domestic shootings to make that seem reasonable attitude, even if
> you don't fully agree with or support it.  The point being that it's
> probably a healthy survivial response to avoid having guns in the house
> just like it's a healthy survival response to avoid working in coal mines,
> but YMMV.  I am honestly sympathetic to more than one side in the gun
> control debate, and think we're at the stage where reasonable people can
> agree to disagree.  (BTW, I don't any firearms but I love shooting rifles
> and shotguns.  :-)
> 
> Hey.  Wouldn't fear of a bullet-'proof' jacket be more like being afraid of
> a jacket?  You almost fooled me for a minute there.  LOL  :->
> 
> There are members of the TML who are also proud (some, even rabid  :-)
> members of the TML Rod & Gun Club.  And there are some who are not.  The
> membership lists are unlikely to ever be altered, and I never meant to get
> into a debate over whether all people who [like/hate] guns are idiotic
> sickos or not.
> 
> I think both TML Rod & Gun Clubbers and others who are opposed can all
> agree that _some_ people who own guns, and carry guns around, are moved
> primarily by psychological need to find a surrogate or maybe just plain
> anger, and not by some other need that the rest of us agree or disagree
> about the reasonableness of.  Sometimes a cigar is _not_ just a cigar, and
> sometimes a gun is not just a gun.  Other times, they are.  My Freud remark
> was merely an opportunistic bit of humor intended to give everyone a laugh
> and lighten things up for all who read it.
> 
> I've probably prattled on longer than is necessary and will shut up now,
> and post no further on the topic.  Unless it's a joke.
> 
> --Laning
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <20020405.170459.-184723.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Laning

On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 19:46:54 -0500 laning <laning@wizard.net> writes:
> 
> >With me, being on the giving end is like putting on a warm fuzzy 
> >jacket on a cold day. Makes me feel warm all over.
> >Which is why I sold my rifle.
> >
> >Turokan
> 
> LOL!
> 
> --Laning

The US Army trained me well... 

Just don't give me a weapon, I change like Dr. Jeckle [sp] and Mr. Hyde
[sp].

However, if you want me on your team - please do :~)

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020405224405.6103A27A92@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020405164806.00a49df0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:20:15 -0700, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

>Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.

Put me down as afraid of guns, then.  Being in the presence of a real, 
functioning weapon makes me nervous.  In most circumstances, I would refuse 
to even hold one.

To some extent, this is probably because I was never acclimated to them as 
a youth, through hunting or whatever.  But I am similarly nervous around 
anything that can cause death or serious injury, even/especially by 
accident or negligence.  For example, I used to work at a gas station; part 
of my job was refilling propane cylinders from the big tank out back.  I 
hated it.  The stuff was cryo-cold, flammable, explosive, and under high 
pressure.  I was trained for it, but I still hated it.

There's also the "with great power comes great responsibility" angle.  I do 
not want or need the power to maim or kill another human being, or the 
responsibility that necessarily comes with it.  At this time and place, I 
am happier not having to handle guns.  (And yes, I'm fully aware of how 
privileged I am that I've never had to pick up a deadly weapon, let alone 
use one in anger.)

It's a lot harder to kill someone with a jacket.  Definitely not 
impossible, but jackets are not primarily designed to apply deadly 
force.  A firearm is, and I grant them all the respect they are due as a 
result.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] G:Ground Forces queston
Message-ID: <B8D3910E.30E8%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

Hi,

In the Grav vehicle design section, duct fans are listed as having a
positive energy amount, instead of negative.  Is this an error or do they
actually act as power plants?

Thanks,

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:41:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:41:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
References: <20020405194007.A9EDC27A7A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CAE5228.FED9D9B0@earthlink.net>

Thank you, Messers Brick, Scheets, Whipsnade, and all others
who offered an answer to my question.

I recently found the original 1981 character sheet for
my favorite character of all time. He went through SORAG
as part of his pre-game career and had picked up the skill
of "Holster".

While I best remember the item from The Deathworld
Trilogy novels Mr. Whipsnade referred to, I do recall
seeing it for the first time on good ol' Wild Wild West.

Personally, though, I really like the one used by the
Pyrrans in the trilogy.

I really don't see it being practical, given Harrison's
"power holster" had the strength to rip through rough-woven
cloth,  especially since the sidearm it propelled into
the wearer's hand in less than one second, fired a large
caliber HEAP round, and had no trigger guard.

Either a White Dwarf or a Space Gamer mag actually
had CT stats for them. Ah, for the days of being a
Traveller munchkin! <grin>

For those of you who may be interested in these works
by Harry Harrison, may I suggest the following site:

http://www.iol.ie/~carrollm/hh/n01-01.htm

It has some details on the various publications of the
adventures of the trilogy's hero, psionic gambler Jason
dinAlt, including a new trilogy published only for the 
Russian market!  :(

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 18:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri Apr  5 18:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
Message-ID: <001101c1dd0f$c57c7340$f619f7a5@pctframen>

Sorta on topic for this subject, in that it deals with an incident where the
communication delay was vital. As usual, when thinking about Traveller
communication, a pre-20th Century example is useful:

"[Louis Remme, a cowboy] was at Sacramento, California, on Feb. 2nd [1855]
when he received a draft ion the Adams and Company Bank of San Francisco for
twelve thousand dollars. Unfortunately, he delayed cashing the draft until
the following morning. Meanwhile, the San Francisco bank had become a
financial casualty overnight. This failure caused its branch banks,
including the one in Sacramento, to close their doors immediately...
    "But, and his thoughts were racing, there was still a chance. It was a
slim possibility, but worth a try...The San Francisco firm had a branch in
Portland, Oregon, seven hundred miles away. The northern branch would not
close until word reached there from San Francisco; and that word would have
to go by sea, the only direct line of communication with the Columbia River
region at that time. The ship...was scheduled to depart from San Francisco
that morning. Its sailing time was six days. His one long chance was to beat
the boat to Oregon and cash his draft before the Portland bank received the
order to close its doors...."

[Source: _The Rawhide Years_, Glen R Vernam]

Remme made it on time, just beating the boat. The ObTravs are interesting;
presumably, buy/sell orders to a brokerage would operate in a similar
manner, perhaps allowing the PCs to beat their own order. Situations similar
to the one Renne faced could still crop up, especially in marginal systems
that only get official mail once a week.

(Of course, the probability that a modern common-stock corporation could
operate given Traveller communications is slim, but what the hey...)

Fred "Hell for Leather" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 18:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri Apr  5 18:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <3CAE2C1B.9030204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020406023936.E756627A91@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/05/02 at 03:58 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

>> Oh, I like this...
>> 
>> How about a character doing the same?
>> Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her past, and late in
>> a game spring it on your group.
>>

>All the time. In  Eris' Akus Moby pbem all the characters started out
> knowing nothing about each other...we only know what our characters
>have  told the others, in some cases that's probably just the tip of
>the iceberg.

>All of us have some secrets, I'm sure.

That statement is true...or false. <weg>

I will say that some of the juiciest secrets were being carried by
characters that have been orphaned. Of the "cousins and partners"
we've had Martan and Sarge disappear in a misjump, Sir Jason leave to
direct a play, and April simply not disembark from the ship when it
reached Kurzu. But, Ricardo doesn't have any secrets does he? <g>

Eris


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
References: <20020405194005.BABCE27A79@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <007601c1dd18$0a3ce0c0$945d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while
> desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to
> perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.

Yep.  My WWII veteran friend has mentioned how when his company were just
about out of ammunition and surrounded, they were preparing to fix their
bayonets and die.  Fortunately for them, relief came just in the nick of
time.  They fired their last ammunition at the Japanese as they retreated.

> From: Matthew Bond
> The principal aim of a bayonet charge is to cause the flight or surrender
> of the defenders of a position.

This seems to have been the point of a bayonet charge my friend described to
me.  The charge was about thirty metres long, incidentally - more or less
how far you could see through the jungle.

> As soon as the initial terror subsided he (and now I can't recall exactly
> which) either threw down his weapon and ran for his life, or threw down
> his weapon and surrendered.

An account of an Australian bayonet charge in the official WWII histories
describe five armed Japanese soldiers just standing around squealing while a
single Australian soldier stabbed them to death.  Clearly, shock happens.

> To quote Corporal Jones in Dad's Army... "Cold Steel, Sir. They don't
> like it up 'em!"

A comment in the Australian histories suggest that the Japanese forces
didn't like facing Australian bayonet charges.  Apparently, all that
practice shouting "Banzai!" didn't actually translate into a willingness to
stand their ground against some other mad sod with a big knife on a stick.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:03:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:03:51 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <007701c1dd18$0af3fbc0$945d8690@computer>

> From: Bruce Johnson 
> One sentence that engenders fear and panic in every starship owner's
> heart: 'Bwap compliance inspector.'

Would it help if your ship's accountant was a Virushi?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] FF&S Help
In-Reply-To: <001101c1dd0f$c57c7340$f619f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAAEGNCOAA.redroach@pobox.com>

Does anyone know of a good FF&S spreadsheet for designing aircraft?

Or even better does anyone out there want to help me design a VTOL craft
using FF&S?

I have some basic specs, picture, etc...
I just HELP

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
Message-ID: <200204060325.DLH01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Or Unobtanium, maybe.  I seem to remember some science 
fiction a ways back talking about firing osmium needles at 
hypervelocities...

http://www.sciencenews.org/20020406/fob2.asp

So much for diamond coating of metals.  Maybe that axe that 
Laning's character wants to carry is coated with osmium.

ObTrav:  Giving things names like "bonded superdense" might 
be OK while I'm designing Striker vehicles, but I am always 
wondering, "superdense what?"  It's nice to know that I could 
extrapolate and say, "it's osmium, silly".
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:34:02 2002
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <3ca99b9a.4755858@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20405.185820.1a4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I want an L5 space station, then I can not only declare independence,
> but address communications to world leaders as "foolish
> Earth-beings!".
>
> And if anybody objects, well, I'm at the top of the gravity well and
> there are lots of rocks in space...

Not handy to L5. And especially not in quantities sufficient to defend
you against the folks on Earth after you send the *first* one at them.
That overgrown tin can is a lot more vulnerable than Earth.

You could hurt Earth. They could *kill* you. 

Say a pattern of nukes a thousand or so km from you. That'd overload
the solar flare shielding by quite a bit. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:37:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Trista)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:37:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
References: <200204060325.DLH01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAE6BBC.D28B1C82@the-spa.com>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> Or Unobtanium, maybe.  I seem to remember some science
> fiction a ways back talking about firing osmium needles at
> hypervelocities...

Hmmm, that sounds like the book 'Forlorn Hope'; mercenaries use
something called a 'cone bore rifle', the barrel of which is supposedly
of diamond and fires an osmium needle which is compressed as it travels
through the barrel and reaches hypervelocites. Had them in cannon size
too as I recall.

Now I have to go hunt up my copy and check. LOL Curiosity.

Siani
-- 
"Virisque Adquirit Eundo"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <200204060325.DLH01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3B0C0.377EB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 7:25 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Or Unobtanium, maybe.  I seem to remember some science
> fiction a ways back talking about firing osmium needles at
> hypervelocities...

David Drake, IIRC, in his stories


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <3CAE6BBC.D28B1C82@the-spa.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3B11B.377EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 7:30 PM, Trista at asmahan@the-spa.com wrote:

> Hmmm, that sounds like the book 'Forlorn Hope'; mercenaries use
> something called a 'cone bore rifle', the barrel of which is supposedly
> of diamond and fires an osmium needle which is compressed as it travels
> through the barrel and reaches hypervelocites. Had them in cannon size
> too as I recall.

That goes back to the old Gerlich AT guns of WWII.  I think the squeeze bore
has pretty much fallen out of favor, replaced by the discarding sabot.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 20:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 20:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] pilot specs
Message-ID: <20020405.205600.-3247.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hi all,

This is for anyone who might know.

What are the real life size minimum and maximum hight requirements for a
combat fighter pilot?
Obviously if you can't sit in the seat, or reach the pedals fully pressed
down you're out.

ObTrav:
These requirements will effect fighter cockpits for world based craft,
and possibly starship fighters and small craft.

How would this effect pilot skills in the 57th century?
Would a GM allow a short, or very large character in the pilot seat?
Would it be safe?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <005f01c1dd29$f7b338c0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "laning" <laning@wizard.net>
> The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:
> The Ancients War
> Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani
> Presumably the N Interstellar wars
> Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night
> Very early in Zhodani history
> Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) from
> on Darrian
>
> At least I think it was nukes with Darrian.  Or something just as
> devastating, so the MAD concept would still apply.
>
> Darrian seems to be a good canonical instance of nuclear warfare happening
> specifically somewhere, not just in a general way to somebody.

The cause of the Darrian Collapse wasn't nuclear weapons, it was the
Maghiz... the after effects of an innocent science project to survey the
Primary Star of Darrian, that inadvertently caused it to undergo a Nova-like
hiccup...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com> <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <2b1tauotjjqq4c8v1v1vn5isvpbofrd549@4ax.com>

On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 10:51:56 -0800, Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

>on 4/5/02 9:22 AM, KevinC at kevinc@cnetech.com wrote:
>> Tod,
>>=20
>> Will the new TML archive be accessible by web search engines and
>> bots/spiders?
>>=20
>> If yes, then you need to do something to protect the email addresses =
of
>> anyone whose posts are in the archive.
>>=20
>> Otherwise "harvesters" will grab them all, and spam the good ( still
>> active) ones.
>
>I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

Thank you for thinking of doing so.  I wonder if it might be easiest
to simply remove the actual e-mail address and leave the user's name.
=46or instance, on this reply, all the addresses which would be seen
would be "Tod Glenn" and "KevinC".  Neither would be much risk from a
harvester standpoint and yet they would easily be plainly read.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020405231806.02bc3a70@mail.earthlink.net>


So is the Kknife a special K'kree weapon? :)

Jimmy Simpson                        nimrodd@mail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405212730.024a9190@mail.verizon.net>

Hmm, my first reply got bounced, so here 'tis again.  :-)

Hi David,

Check out:

http://home.earthlink.net/~backslash/

Best regards,

Charles McKnight 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:30:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:30:06 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <000b01c1dc7a$655e8a60$f000a8c0@imogen>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020405224838.04445dd0@rollanet.org>

At 04:59 PM 4/4/02, you wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> > I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor
> > training.
>
>I used to work a a company that tried for (and got) ISO 9000/9001
>certification: it was easy-peasy!
>
>1) Have a documented procedure for everything
>2) Make sure all staff know where the latest  versions  of  those
>    documents are (ie. where on the PC server)
>
>The fact that we didn't actually follow those  procedures  (close
>scrutiny would have revealed they were unworkable anyhow)  didn't
>seem to matter.
>
>Its just a case of understanding the game.
>

Funny, the auditor who is checking the company I work for keeps wanting to 
see actual proof that we are following our procedures.


--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>

From: laning <laning@wizard.net>

     "The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:"

Sir,

     My take on your list:

     "The Ancients War"

     Perhaps.  Gramps and the Kiddies and the Grandkiddies had access to 
devices that make nukes look like waterballoons.  They still may have used 
them, no weapon is really ever obsolete.

     "Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani."

     Canon is littered with references to the Vilani "way" of war being 
brutally pragmatic.  IMHO, the Ziru Sirka would have used nukes early and 
often.  Then again, I have trouble believing the canonical description of 
the Interstellar War anyway.
     GT:RoF has the Vilani visiting Terra after the 2nd War.  These 
representatives of the ZS must have been either brain dead or traitors not 
to bring an accurate report back to Dingir from Sol.  After being shown a 
~10 billion humans on an industrialized world, the "brutally pragmatic" 
Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt.
     All the explanations about population levels, internal Vilani politics, 
blah, blah, blah, are just liberal doses of handwavium.  With the 
superioroty in maneuver drives and missile tech that RoF claims for them, 
the Ziro Sirka would have, could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it 
glowed.

     "Presumably the N Interstellar wars."

     The ZS certainly, "scorched earth" tactics during their long retreat.  
The TC maybe, after all they want to colonize and/or rule.  No need to mess 
up the planets you're taking over.

     "Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night."

     Agreed.  See the "Sack of Gasikan(?)", a world heavily nuked by the 
Vargr that recovers to found and lead a genocidal minded, anti-Vargr pocket 
empire.

     "Very early in Zhodani history."

     No.  Two Dark Ages in Zho history, one when a low tech "universal" 
empire collapses, ala Rome, China, etc. and another when space missions to 
Zhodane's moon brings back a dormant Ancient bio-weapon.  No nuke exchanges 
mentioned or intimated at all.
     This doesn't mean that the Zho's haven't used them on occasion 
elsewhere in the Consulate.

     "Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) 
from on Darrian."

     No.  The Maghurz(sp) was the result of two experiments involving Tanis, 
Darrian's primary, that horribly interacted with each other.  Pre-contact 
Darrian history was suprisingly peaceful, for humans.

     A few you forgot to mention;
     Kuzu - The Aslan's Second World War was nuclear, the Third one, which 
the arrival of "Pathfinder" prevented, was going to nuclear too.  Shame it 
didn't happen.
     Asmodeus - A balkanized Zho world in the Marches had a nuclear exchange 
sometime in the 1090's.  Guess the Thought Police were all out getting 
doughnuts.
     Unknown - IIRC, there's a balkanized world mentioned somewhere in canon 
that went nucelar.  The population there lived in domes and levels took 
quite a nose dive before the Marines could intervene.

     "This all leads me to believe that MAD isn't an effective strategy
against a geographically _very_ dispersed opponent."

     Perhaps, or maybe it's just damper technology.  I don't have Striker to 
hand, but IIRC dampers pretty much draw the fangs out of nukes.  How 
easy/hard would it be for PDFs to maintain damper coverage for an entire 
world?  Could such coverage be projected from orbit by naval vessels?  If 
so, the 3I could show up above some balkanized world with a nasty squabble 
taking place and declare a "no-nukes" zone with a couple of orbitting 
escorts.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3DF55.37819%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 10:59 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:

> "The Ancients War"
> 
> Perhaps.  Gramps and the Kiddies and the Grandkiddies had access to
> devices that make nukes look like waterballoons.  They still may have used
> them, no weapon is really ever obsolete.
> 
[snip]

Then of course we haven't considered nuclear dampers.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3B11B.377EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CAE6BBC.D28B1C82@the-spa.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406023413.0396cdf0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn says:
>That goes back to the old Gerlich AT guns of WWII.  I think the squeeze bore
>has pretty much fallen out of favor, replaced by the discarding sabot.

Whoa.  Thanks for the reminder.  I'd completely forgotten about those 
things, it's been so long.  Yeah, I was always pretty dubious about them.

The only ObTrav I can think of is that there is no ObTrav for the simple 
reason that firearms design in the 57th century has long since evolved to 
be as good as it can possibly get and every theoretical new twist has 
already been examined, and tried, and tried again.  Local conditions may 
vary from world to world, but I am talking about overall.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
In-Reply-To: <001101c1dd0f$c57c7340$f619f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406024845.0396aa80@pop.wizard.net>

Fred Ramen quotes a fascinating story about a Old Time Westerner getting 
700 miles in six days to a bank branch before the bank learned from its 
headquarters that it was kaput:

>(Of course, the probability that a modern common-stock corporation could
>operate given Traveller communications is slim, but what the hey...)

Stock exchanges on each world will tend to only trade shares of 
corporations that do their primary business in that system.  Megacorps will 
trade at a glacial pace compared to something like our own New York Stock 
Exchange.  You will make an appointment to meet with your buy/seller of 
Ling Standard Products, for instance.  And the buyer will be required to 
sign some forms to prove they've done a due diligence study of the risks, 
blah, blah.

Also, the megacorps and other star-spanning corporations will set up local 
subsidiaries for each world where they have significant operational 
presence or financial stake and the shares traded on the exchanges of that 
world will only be shares of the subsidiary, not the owning megacorp.

That's my fast answer.  Haven't pondered it beyond that.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <005f01c1dd29$f7b338c0$52200050@matt>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406025432.03968d20@pop.wizard.net>

Matt Bond sets the record straight:

>The cause of the Darrian Collapse wasn't nuclear weapons, it was the
>Maghiz... the after effects of an innocent science project to survey the
>Primary Star of Darrian, that inadvertently caused it to undergo a Nova-like
>hiccup...

Thank you, sir.  I knew it was much more exotic than nuclear warfare.  And 
I completely got wrong the angle of it being a war of any kind.  Yes, it 
seems to me that the Maghiz thing left a lot of speculation about the 
Grandfather or someone deciding not to let anyone go past TL 15.  If you 
prefer the secret conspiracy view of things, that is.  Or it could have 
been just one more example of mankind's hubris being too self destructive, 
like Ikaros having the wax melt on his wings.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 00:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406030132.03931080@pop.wizard.net>

Larsen Whipsnade very helpfully responded to and improved my list of 
nuclear warfare and MAD related canon:
<<<snip most of it>>>
>    Asmodeus - A balkanized Zho world in the Marches had a nuclear 
> exchange sometime in the 1090's.  Guess the Thought Police were all out 
> getting doughnuts.

Doughnuts, LOL!


>     Unknown - IIRC, there's a balkanized world mentioned somewhere in 
> canon that went nucelar.  The population there lived in domes and levels 
> took quite a nose dive before the Marines could intervene.
>
>     "This all leads me to believe that MAD isn't an effective strategy
>against a geographically _very_ dispersed opponent."
>
>     Perhaps, or maybe it's just damper technology.  I don't have Striker 
> to hand, but IIRC dampers pretty much draw the fangs out of nukes.  How 
> easy/hard would it be for PDFs to maintain damper coverage for an entire 
> world?  Could such coverage be projected from orbit by naval vessels?  If 
> so, the 3I could show up above some balkanized world with a nasty 
> squabble taking place and declare a "no-nukes" zone with a couple of 
> orbitting escorts.
I brought it up a little while ago with a friend who was over for face to 
face gaming.  His immediate reaction was "nuclear dampers".  He felt the 
same way I do about things being far too dispersed for MAD to make enough 
sense.  Well, actually his first reaction was "It's against the Imperial 
Code of War, nobody would ever get away with it" but then I explained my 
concern wasn't keeping order internally but grand strategy between nations 
at the level of interstellar empires.

I grabbed my trusty old (first edition, so no power points) Book 5 - High 
Guard and we looked up nuclear dampers.  First available at TL 12.  You 
have to get all the way from TL 6 or 7 to TL 12 without them, but still 
dealing nukes.  Repulsor bays come in at TL 10, and that will help a tiny 
bit.  Jump drives start at TL 9, so you have to get from 9 to 12 with the 
capability for interstellar delivery of nukes.  It would have been such a 
good answer too.  IIRC, either MT or second edition High Guard or maybe 
both did do some substantial revisions to TLs for weapons and 
screens.  Perhaps that will provide some support to the nuclear dampers 
theory.  But I don't think so.

The search continues, I guess.

--Laning



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 00:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 00:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEFOCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20406.005223.1e4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The weapon I'm trying to figure out is an equalizer for pedestrians.
> Anything that will actually stop or otherwise neutralize a moving vehicle
> that is about to violate a crosswalk will have a danger space that includes
> the pedestrian (like a LAW, M203, Panzerfaust, etc.) at typical engagement
> ranges.  Anything safe for the pedestrian will not actually stop the vehicle
> before impact -- the .44 magnum will shut down the engine, but the car will
> keep on rolling.  Many weapons will neutralize the driver, but again, the
> car will keep going.  It's a poser.

You need a personal force shield with the ability to isolate internal
and external inertial frames. Or else the ability to "lock" to bedrock
on impact.

I suspect it'd be "simpler" to do the former. But not by a lot.

Basicly, any momentum transfer to the volume within the field occurs
*uniformly*. So, since the forces are applied equal to all particles,
they don't have any apparent effect (much like it doesn't matter how
strong the gravity is *while* you are falling, just when you hit :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 01:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 01:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE9C2B.34116%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20406.005748.6n2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/1/02 10:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>> 
>> I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that difficult to
>> build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate power
>> battery.  
>
> I have yet to be convinced that such things will work, and be at all
> effective.  Particularly as the  strength of burst will be inversely
> proportional to the to the square of the distance.  Has anyone actually seen
> a demonstration where this works?  It should be rather easy to test.

The effects *depend* on non-linear effects. And the strength at a
distance depends a lot on the orientation.

Also, remember, the effect is *not* due to the strength of the field
(well, not entirely). It's due to the sudden *change* in field strength
too. 

> Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical martial
> arts 'death touch'.

I wouldn't expect one to have any great range. But if you can hide it
in a brief case, 10 meters is *plenty*.

>> I've a few comments and questions here:
>> 
>> 1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this
>> shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be
>> overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP?
>
> Gauss weapons won't need any complex and delicate circuitry if they're
> anything like railguns.  I don't expect them to be vulnerable to EMP anymore
> than a 1950s Chevy would be.

Yeah, I meant to comment on that myself.

"coilguns" will need some high speeds switchging circuitry. But
frankly, the power levels and timescales are such that EMP would be
minor compared to the fields inside the weapon every time it "cycled". 

"Railguns" don't have any circuitry more complicated than a light
switch. *NO* electronics in the weapon aside from any sighting gear.
And the magnetic fields the thing uses would make them have to be
mostly EMP prof anyway. 

EMP would affect them about as much as it'd affect a nail stuck to a
strong magnet. And for similar reasons. The *local* field would far
exceed the EMP.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 01:13:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 01:13:06 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701795.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20406.010602.9U3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn writes:
>> on 4/1/02 2:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
>> > 
>> > Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In
>> > fact, gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing
>> > the thing will short out all of its electronics, not to mention other
>> > nearby electronics. 
>> 
>> What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?
>
> Presumably, one strong, sharp pulse lasting roughly the length of time it 
> takes
> for a bullet to go the length of the barrel.  Not immediately inclined to
> figure out the total emitted energy, but I rather doubt that it's small.

It'd better be. Otherwise the gun is wasting energy emitting the noise.
The magnetic field will be constant. The electrical current flow is DC.
Though a rather sharp pulse, which may have a fair amount of ringing.

> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.

I have trouble picturing a coilgun as being *practical* in a man
portable size. Railguns are almost as bad, but at least you don't need
to switch all that power *repeatedly* and with precise timing dozens of
times per shot.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406025432.03968d20@pop.wizard.net>
References: <005f01c1dd29$f7b338c0$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020406065801.009f48d0@mindspring.com>

At 02:57 AM 4/6/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Matt Bond sets the record straight:
>
>>The cause of the Darrian Collapse wasn't nuclear weapons, it was the
>>Maghiz... the after effects of an innocent science project to survey the
>>Primary Star of Darrian, that inadvertently caused it to undergo a Nova-like
>>hiccup...
>
>Thank you, sir.  I knew it was much more exotic than nuclear warfare.  And 
>I completely got wrong the angle of it being a war of any kind.  Yes, it 
>seems to me that the Maghiz thing left a lot of speculation about the 
>Grandfather or someone deciding not to let anyone go past TL 15.  If you 
>prefer the secret conspiracy view of things, that is.  Or it could have 
>been just one more example of mankind's hubris being too self destructive, 
>like Ikaros having the wax melt on his wings.

I think the Maghiz was just another example of the Law of Unintended 
Consequences.  Better known as Murphy's Law.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204061516.DME00009@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug writes
>I think the Maghiz was just another example of the Law of 
>Unintended Consequences.  Better known as Murphy's Law.
>

BTW, I went looking around the web, and found another library 
data site, which had a bit on the Maghiz and the project that 
caused it.

http://www.seemann.ms/library/

Hopefully the owner of that site is on the TML somewhere...
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Combat Armor & Battle Dress
Message-ID: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>

--part1_19d.46939d.29e06ca1_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Hi,
   While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I discovered 
that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game (Imperial 
Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of the different 
models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
   Could someone help me out?
   Thanks :)
  -Ken Murphy-

--part1_19d.46939d.29e06ca1_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I discovered that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of the different models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Could someone help me out?
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_19d.46939d.29e06ca1_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>

From: laning <laning@wizard.net>

     "...looked up nuclear dampers.  First available at TL 12."

Sir,

     Well, that settles that theory.

     "You have to get all the way from TL 6 or 7 to TL 12 without them, but 
still dealing nukes.  Jump drives start at TL 9, so you have to get from 9 
to 12 with the capability for interstellar delivery of nukes."

     So until TL 12, MAD and geographical/astrographic dispersal are the 
trumps, usually.

     "It would have been such a good answer too.  IIRC, either MT or second 
edition High Guard or maybe both did do some substantial revisions to TLs 
for weapons and screens.  Perhaps that will provide some support to the 
nuclear dampers theory.  But I don't think so."

     The answer is a melange of MAD, dispersal, and dampers.  There are 
rarely single reasons for any given happenstance.
     I wonder, what if TL 12 is when dampers are small enough to allow them 
to be installed aboard ships?  Or the power requirements are finally 
"doable" in a hull?  Prior to TL 12, dampers could be massive, strategic 
systems that require multiple installations and oodles of generators.  At TL 
12, the technology gets miniaturized enough to be installed aboard ships, 
sort of like radar between the late 1930s and early 1940s.
     It's still a handwave, though.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 09:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20406.010602.9U3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 1:06 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.
> 
> I have trouble picturing a coilgun as being *practical* in a man
> portable size. Railguns are almost as bad, but at least you don't need
> to switch all that power *repeatedly* and with precise timing dozens of
> times per shot.

The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 09:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 09:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052324.g35NOjh06085@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <B8D46F07.37842%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 3:28 PM, Steven Hudson at shudson@lightspeed.ca wrote:

> 
> The K'kree seem to be the only major polity that believes in
> re-surfacing planets as a matter of policy. There's all sorts
> of amateurs that try and compete for the title, but mostly sanity
> (MAD) or cultural constraints interfere.
> 

I would expect that when it came to the K'kree, their opponents would adopt
the same attitude.  Something like the US policy on chemical weapons. "No
first use".  But if you use them, will give it right back and in spades.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 09:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 09:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn says:

[The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.]

Yes, and today, the power supply is much larger than can be carried.
We can get you a small battery made with an unobtanium core.

One problem that I see with a lot of sci-fi weapons is recoil. It's
a really nice idea to have a weapon that can fire a projectile at
4000 meters per second, but it's unlikely that we'll be able to
hold onto the weapon without a handwave generator.

In Traveller, I like to see weapons filling unique and obvious niches.

Gauss weapons are silent, and better at penetration than the ordinary 
slugthrower.  However, I feel that there should be a recoil penalty,
especially on full auto.  There are definitely recoil limits for 
humans (not just pain, but actually hitting something).

The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
from Book 4.  How about YTU?

In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a 
good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.

ObTrav: A Gauss weapon should be a better penetrator than a laser,
but the laser has no recoil.  I'm still trying to figure out the 
handwave that allows a plasma bolt to go more than a few centimeters
out of the barrel.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 11:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Seemann)
Date: Sat Apr  6 11:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E002330A27@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AA@mail.ahead.com>

Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:16:10 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

> BTW, I went looking around the web, and found another library 
> data site, which had a bit on the Maghiz and the project that 
> caused it.
> 
> http://www.seemann.ms/library/
> 
> Hopefully the owner of that site is on the TML somewhere...

I am, and BTW desperately trying to get time to do a major rewrite of
the site...

Did you want to ask me something?

Mark Seemann
mark@seemann.ms

"No matter how far you've come in the wrong direction - turn back!"
- Arabian proverb


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204061914.DML02410@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Mark Seemann" says
>
>I am, and BTW desperately trying to get time to do a major 
>rewrite of the site...
>
>Did you want to ask me something?
>

We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your 
site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which 
was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on 
the whole series of events?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 11:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr  6 11:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <B8D46F07.37842%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204052324.g35NOjh06085@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020406114851.009f8950@mindspring.com>

At 09:23 AM 4/6/02 -0800, you wrote:
>I would expect that when it came to the K'kree, their opponents would adopt
>the same attitude.  Something like the US policy on chemical weapons. "No
>first use".  But if you use them, will give it right back and in spades.

The actual policy is overwhelming response.  Hit is with *one* WMD, and we 
unload on you.  During the Persian Gulf war, the CIA found out that 
Saddam  was planning on using his chemical arsenal to slow down the units 
invading Kuwait. He was told, through neutral nations, that if he did that, 
every damn shack in Iraq would get a 30 kiloton kiss.

I imagine the Imperial policy towards the K'kree is similar..  "You go off 
on a single human world, and we will use you for Astroburger meat.  The Two 
Thousand Worlds will become the 2000 square feet, 'cause that is all your 
species will need.  What's worse, we'll let the Hivers in to play with you."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 12:01:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 12:01:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406145922.00cb7ee0@192.168.0.1>

At 12:41 PM 4/6/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Tod Glenn says:
[snip]
>The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
>from Book 4.  How about YTU?

I think people like Snubs because they have HEAP & HE ammo.


>In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a
>good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
>been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.

T4 has 'em.


----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  "When you see
a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not
wait until he has struck to crush him."
--- Franklin D. Roosevelt
----------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 12:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Seemann)
Date: Sat Apr  6 12:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
In-Reply-To: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E002330A28@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com>

Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:14:38 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

> We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your 
> site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which 
> was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on 
> the whole series of events?

While I can't remember the sequence of event, my library data tells me
there were indeed two projects: The Abh and Udh projects.

These library entries were taken from the Classic Traveller Alien Module
8: Darrians, but I can't remember the rest of the story. However, if you
really want me to, I can go look it up.

Mark Seemann
mark@seemann.ms

"No matter how far you've come in the wrong direction - turn back!"
- Arabian proverb


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 13:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 13:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B8D4A39D.37862%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 9:41 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@comcast.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn says:
> 
> [The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.]
> 
> Yes, and today, the power supply is much larger than can be carried.
> We can get you a small battery made with an unobtanium core.

If one follows the trend in batteries, they are becoming smaller and lighter
for the same power, and thus by extrapolation, batteries of the same size
and weight are becoming more powerful.
> 
> One problem that I see with a lot of sci-fi weapons is recoil. It's
> a really nice idea to have a weapon that can fire a projectile at
> 4000 meters per second, but it's unlikely that we'll be able to
> hold onto the weapon without a handwave generator.

But while projectile energy is a function of the mass of the projectile and
velocity squared, recoil is more a function of momentum.  A small,
lightweight projectile of high velocity has less felt recoil than than a
slower, more massive projectile of the same energy. Plus, with gauss
weapons, there is no added effect of the escaping gasses to add to recoil.

In a conventional firearm free recoils is defined as:

RE= Mg *((MbVb+MpVp)/Mg)^2 in Joules

where:  Mg is the mass of the gun
        Vg is the mass of the bullet
        Mp is the mass of the propellant
        Vp is the velocity of the propellant.  Typically
        noted as a constant (1200 m/s)

Let look at a gauss weapon versus conventional weapon.  In this case we'll
examine a 7.62x51mm rifle versus a gauss version with the same velocity and
bullet weight.

7.62x51mm M1A rifle
        Mass:               4.17 kg
        Bullet Mass:        0.01069 kg
        Bullet Velocity:    807.72 m/s
        Propellant mass:    0.00279 kg

for a free recoil energy of 34.3 J (about 25 ft-lbs)

The gauss version of this weapon generated only 17.7 J of free recoil (only
13 ft-lbs)

The 7.62x51mm has 3593 J (2650 ft-lbs) of energy at the muzzle.  Note that
this is not the energy actually delivered to the target.  This can be
derived from Mach's equation of retardation id we assume non-expanding
(ball) ammunition.  The amount of velocity lost in transiting the target
will allow us to calculate the total energy transferred.

Now lets look at Book 4's Gauss rifle:

Gauss Rifle
        Mass:               3.5 kg
        Bullet Mass:        0.004 kg
        Bullet Velocity:    1500 m/s

For a free recoil of 10.2 J (7.5 ft-lbs)
Muzzle energy is 4500 J (3,300 ft-lbs)

even though the gauss rifle is 500 g less massive than the M1A almost 1000
joules more muzzle energy and one third the free recoil energy

As a note, compare this with the free recoil of the M16 with a mass of 3.2
kg.  The 3.56 g (55 gn) bullet at 1000 m/s (3300 f/s) generates 14.9 J (11
ft-lbs) of free recoil energy with 1800 J (1330 ft-lbs) of energy at the
muzzle.


> 
> In Traveller, I like to see weapons filling unique and obvious niches.
> 
> Gauss weapons are silent, and better at penetration than the ordinary
> slugthrower.  

But gauss weapons are not silent, at least not in atmosphere.  They break
the sound barrier, and ballistic crash is a very. large component of firearm
noise.  MM booboo'd on this one.

> However, I feel that there should be a recoil penalty,
> especially on full auto.  There are definitely recoil limits for
> humans (not just pain, but actually hitting something).
> 
> The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
> from Book 4.  How about YTU?

Rarely seen except in special circumstances.  The range is just too limited.
Also, the penetration is just too goo.  The penetration of a HEAP round is
directly proportional to its diameter. A 100mm diameter projectile is just
not going to have much of a 'jet', and not much material to form the
penetrator.  It's a simple matter of physics.
> 
> In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a
> good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
> been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.
> 
> ObTrav: A Gauss weapon should be a better penetrator than a laser,
> but the laser has no recoil.  I'm still trying to figure out the
> handwave that allows a plasma bolt to go more than a few centimeters
> out of the barrel.

See my note above.  The gauss rifle generates a mere 10 J of free recoil
energy 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 13:33:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr  6 13:33:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
References: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <001801c1ddb2$e0895ba0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Seemann" <mark@seemann.ms>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 9:42 PM
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs


> Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:14:38 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> wrote:
>
> > We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your
> > site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which
> > was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on
> > the whole series of events?
>
> While I can't remember the sequence of event, my library data tells me
> there were indeed two projects: The Abh and Udh projects.
>
> These library entries were taken from the Classic Traveller Alien Module
> 8: Darrians, but I can't remember the rest of the story. However, if you
> really want me to, I can go look it up.
>
> Mark Seemann
> mark@seemann.ms

As I recall, one project was going to use two interfering beams of some type
or radiation to probe the interior of the Star, and the other was to use a
probe with some kind of ablative heat shielding.

Both projects were being conducted semi-secretly and independently. That is
to say that neither team was particularly aware of the other project.

Both projects happened to reach their final stage at the same time, and each
performed its experiment simultaneously.

Unfortunately the intersecting beams caused a reaction with the trail of by
products from the probes ablating heat shielding, the result of which was a
stellar 'burp' of devastating proportions in the Darrian system. The effects
of the pulse continued out into space, reaching the surrounding Darrian
colonies at lightspeed a few years later. Despite the precautions that had
been taken  by the colonies in the intervening period the effects were still
very serious, as much of the technical and manufacturing base had been
located on Darrian itself. Some of the larger colonies survived, but the
ability to construct starships had been lost, and only a few jump capable sh
ips had been spared devastation. after a few years of trying to maintain
contact with each other they fell into a localised long night for about 800
years, before Mire (IIRC) achieved the sustainable technology to construct
its own starships and re-establish contact.

By this time the virgin territory of the Spinward Marches was now occupied
by the Sword Worlders and Zhodani.

Subsequent revelation that the Zhodani had been watching the Darrians in
secret for centuries (due to the Zhodani fears that the Maghiz was the
result of some Darrian Super-weapon) has lead to the Darrian distrust of the
Zhodani, and their allying with the Imperium in the Frontier Wars.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 13:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr  6 13:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020406172606.9E61827AC3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16tyB5-0001Pv-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

laning <laning@wizard.net> wrote:

> > > I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> > > survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of war.
> 
> I can't buy into that at all, John.  Sorry.  Wars seem no more
> omnipresent today than they were in classical times.  The only
> relationships I would draw are the motivation for vengeance that
> connects the survivors to a mass slaughter, and Malthusian effects of
> reducing population pressure by reducing population.  Two forces that
> relationships that seem in opposition to each other.  Even if you
> massacre _all_ your enemy, even the children below age six, you will
> put yourself high on the rest of the world's Enemies To Destroy list. 
> There will come the day you are on the losing side in a war, and
> genocide is not a precedent that you'd like to have around.

I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because 
humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill 
that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate 
thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in 
Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost 
any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something 
separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before. 
 
The three examples above are only those examples I know of with 
the highest death toll, tens of thousands were also been killed in 
Indonesia in the 1960s and in the ruins of Yugoslavia.  

Combat lethality may have gone down, but death tolls in conflicts 
have certainly gone *way* up.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 14:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 14:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn explains recoil in the gauss rifle
<snip>

Yes, it's not completely silent.  There's still the ballistic 
crack - but - it would be difficult to locate the firer, 
especially in an environment where any planar surfaces 
(treelines, building faces) were along the line of flight. 
People who are not familiar with the sound will not know what 
it is at all - most inexperienced people don't associate that 
sound with gunfire (I've taken people into the pits, and 
after the cracks whip by overhead, the guest usually 
says, "What's that sound?").

At such a light projectile, even at such a high velocity, I'm 
not sure that it's that effective a penetrator, unless it's 
really long in proportion to its width - and when they say 
it's 4mm, that's not that much more narrow than 7mm - or 
5.56mm.  Change it to something like a 2mm dart with a body 
40mm long - now that's something.

But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a 
miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no 
visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kown:
>ObTrav: A Gauss weapon should be a better penetrator than a laser,
>but the laser has no recoil.  I'm still trying to figure out the
>handwave that allows a plasma bolt to go more than a few centimeters
>out of the barrel.

You forget.  It's a _high_tech_ plasma bolt.  :->

IMTU, laser weapons do minimal damage.  I just don't think they can 
transfer enough energy into their target during the very, very brief moment 
they touch their target.  Normally.  If the target is unmoving, you can do 
a lot.  I've been on the brink of drastically reducing the range of fusion 
and plasma weapons, too.  For reasons similar to your own.

I also reduce the damage on gauss weapons by a bit, because of the gauss 
weapons in equipment lists are smaller caliber than most gunpowder weapons 
in the same category.  A projectile is a projectile.  Whether it was made 
to go very fast by a gunpowder explosion or a magnetic acceleration doesn't 
make any difference, as long as it is going the same speed.

Tod Glenn has drawn my attention to the fact that there are probably 
profound differences between target ballistics with projectiles travelling 
faster than 1140 meters per second, and projectiles going slower.  I have 
been pondering whether or how to revise my house rules on gauss weapons 
accordingly.  Given the standard handwaves that the Traveller rules are 
based on, at least some personal gauss weapons could theoretically achieve 
those kinds of velocities.  But then you get into the recoil issue you 
already brought up.  As well as problems with the projectile breaking up if 
it strikes a raindrop or a leaf on its way to the intended target.

I think firearms will always have an important role in combat in the 
Traveller universe, even with the presence of laser, fusion, plasma, and 
gauss weapons.  Although gauss weapons could supplant firearms in most 
cases if they are designed to throw projectiles to the same spec as their 
gunpowder counterparts.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Combat Armor & Battle Dress
In-Reply-To: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406172440.0282cbb0@pop.wizard.net>

Ken Murphy wrote:
 >>>
>   While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I 
> discovered that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game 
> (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of the 
> different models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
>   Could someone help me out?
<<<
I have Imperial Encylcopedia but not Referee's Manual.  Maybe we could help 
each other replace our purchased-but-missing books with a photocopier?  My 
understanding is that Marc Miller sanctions that, because we did in fact 
pay to own those books.

Encyclopedia only seems to list generalized text descriptions of the two 
things.  Not that long, not of much use to somebody who already understands 
the concepts.

p 74 of Players Manual gives some armor values:
Combat Armor-11  armor value 8
Combat Armor-12  armor value 10
Combat Armor-14  armor value 18
Battle Dress-13  armor value 10
Battle Dress-14 armor value 18

IIRC, the 11,12, 13, and 14 represent the tech level that the particular 
model of armor becomes available.  Armor value of 8 roughly corresponds to 
a stone, brick, or starship interior wall.  AV 10 roughly corresponds to a 
concrete wall.  AV 18 is somewhere between a reinforced concrete wall and a 
heavy steel frame wall.  A starship bulkhead is 40 and hull is 
60.  Sandbags are 6.  I am just repeating these value equivalents, not 
necessarily agreeing with them.  :->

I have a vague memory of the reference you're talking about, it must be out 
there somewhere.  But the above is all I can find in MT.  :-<

It's possible my memory is from T4.  Their have some detailed descriptions 
of battle dress at least, at various tech levels.  Pretty decent work, 
really.  Hey, not _everything_ IG put out was regrettable!  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 2:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a
> miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no
> visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).
> 

What type of laser? What power range?  Are their any ionizing effects?
Certainly the laser makes noise when it hits the target.  Steam explosions
in tissue, the popping of superheated fat.

And ever looked at a later with LI gear?  Super obvious.  Like having a big
pointer going back to the firer.  And lasers are relatively easy to defeat,
or at least attenuate.  A few mils of highly reflective material sewn into
clothing, prismatic aerosols.  As mentioned in a previous post, lasers are
not good penetrators.  The problem is with the nature of lasers themselves.
The have to vaporize there way through materials.  But the vaporized
material itself can act as a hindrance to the laser.

Also, water (and by analogy tissue) is a great thermal sink. 55 calories to
raise 1 cc of water 1 degree centigrade, IIRC.

I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.

I would be particularly be interested in the amount of power required to
produce a lethal beam, and compare that to the energy required to drive a
gauss projectile at book 4 velocities.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: vehicle design
Message-ID: <3CAF83F0.FB931D1E@mail.cswnet.com>

I need a vehicle design for my starport/colony.

1.The vehicle is intended to be used for public transportation.

2. It is to fit into a circular tunnel, the diameter of which is
4 meters/4.376 yards. The vehicle must fit inside this.
Remember the math. Area of circle: 3.14*Radius squared

3. The tunnel runs for 10km/6.25miles, from the starport to the
main town.

4. The tunnel is sealed from the external environment. 

5. Would like to see something like the maglev's from 2300 or the 
train thingies from SPACE:1999.

6. Any design format/iteration is welcome.

7. If you give me a really good design, I'll name the tunnel after you.
:) :) :)

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406180955.0282f100@pop.wizard.net>

The inestimable though esteemed Mr. Whipsnade contributes:
>    The answer is a melange of MAD, dispersal, and dampers.  There are 
> rarely single reasons for any given happenstance.
>     I wonder, what if TL 12 is when dampers are small enough to allow 
> them to be installed aboard ships?  Or the power requirements are finally 
> "doable" in a hull?  Prior to TL 12, dampers could be massive, strategic 
> systems that require multiple installations and oodles of generators.  At 
> TL 12, the technology gets miniaturized enough to be installed aboard 
> ships, sort of like radar between the late 1930s and early 1940s.
>     It's still a handwave, though.
>
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Larsen

Though you present a reasonable approach, I only wish I were 
persuaded.  It's amusing when you think about it.  Each of us has different 
things in canon that we find objectionable.  Some are bothered by the 
evolutionary biology or the chemistry, others are bothered by plot holes, 
others again by problems with basic laws of physics or theoretical physical 
limits.  Yet we are each on the TML because of our genuine love for the 
game, and most of us either accept or cherish the main body of the 
work.  We all have different comfort levels over different things.  I am 
very comfortable with having thruster plates in as a handwave, yet bothered 
that laser weapons do "too much damage"?  LOL.  Descriptions of the 
Traveller time line are acceptable to some verbatim, regardless of any 
contradictions or loopholes.  It's just fiction, there's no point to trying 
to find deeper meaning.  I accept a lot of parts of it the same way, but am 
bothered by this particular thing and completely balk at 'the 
Rebellion'.  It is well and truly said:  YMMV.

Yeah, I was thinking about the possibility of nuclear dampers below TL 12 
just being bigger than the TL 12 ones that are in 100-ton ship's bays.  You 
might even be able to get that down to TL 9, when jump drives make their 
first appearance, who knows.  Though the very frequent references to 
threats of nuclear war or to past nuclear wars that vaguely affected lots 
of places yet seem to have specifically affected nowhere should mean that 
we'd see at least _one_ mention of dampers as strategic protection.  And we 
don't.  For any tech level.  And then we're told that the combatants in the 
Rebellion seem to be making liberal use of them and planets are getting 
hosed down.  If that wasn't feasible before, what has changed that makes it 
feasible now?  (Besides who is doing most of the writing of the books.  :-)

I'm stumped here.  I need something to say when I start my next Traveller 
game.  And did I mention one of my players has a doctorate from MIT on the 
subject of nuclear warfare?  It's _going_ to come up.  Guess I'll turn the 
tables and ask him to help come up with a rationalization before he can ask 
me for one.  It would help even more if he'd read anything besides the 
original three LBBs back in 1977.  I'll post here and let you all know what 
he contributes.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D4C656.3788B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 3:07 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> 
> Tod Glenn has drawn my attention to the fact that there are probably
> profound differences between target ballistics with projectiles travelling
> faster than 1140 meters per second, and projectiles going slower.

Actually, it's 1450 m/s.  An the differences in wounding are not
theoretical, they are proven.  I direct you to "Antipersonnel Weapons"
published by SIPRI (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute) which
has a very good section of the effects of hypervelocity (1450+ m/s)
projectiles.  There have also been a few writeups in past issues of the
"Journal of Wound Ballistics".  I'll look for the articles and get you a
cite.

> I have 
> been pondering whether or how to revise my house rules on gauss weapons
> accordingly.  Given the standard handwaves that the Traveller rules are
> based on, at least some personal gauss weapons could theoretically achieve
> those kinds of velocities.  But then you get into the recoil issue you
> already brought up.

See my earlier post. Gauss weapon have significantly less free recoil energy
than CPR guns.  Just using the example from my previous post.  If we take
two identical weapons (in the example, M1As), one CPR the other gauss, each
firing an identical bullet at identical velocities.

M1A Standard:   34 J of free recoil
M1A Gauss:      17.7 J of free recoil

The Traveller Book 4 gauss rifle fires a 4g 4mm projectile at 1500 m/s.  The
weapons masses 3.5 kg, thus we have a free recoil energy of only 10.2 J, 2/3
the recoil of the M16.  The M16 has 1800 J of muzzle energy compared with
the gauss rifle's 4500 J.

If the gauss rifle is a coil gun (as many have suggested, and the
description from book 4 seems to fit)  the projectile must be ferromagnetic.
Let's assume elemental iron to make it easy.  Iron has a density of 7.86
g/cc.  We know from 'canon' that the gauss round is 4mm in diameter and
masses 4 g.  That means a projectile that is 4cm long, a 1:10 aspect ratio.

Looking a Mach's equation, these rounds are going to decelerate quickly once
they hit flesh, and probably cause wounding that is way beyond anything
caused by a conventional firearm.

> As well as problems with the projectile breaking up if
> it strikes a raindrop or a leaf on its way to the intended target.

That's a function of bullet composition.  If we assume a monolithic
projectile of iron, I doubt we'd observe such effects.  The bullets where
this phenomenon is observers are copper jacketed lead bullets.
> 
> I think firearms will always have an important role in combat in the
> Traveller universe, even with the presence of laser, fusion, plasma, and
> gauss weapons.  Although gauss weapons could supplant firearms in most
> cases if they are designed to throw projectiles to the same spec as their
> gunpowder counterparts.
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAMENHCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn asks
[I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.]

See http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/docs/98-165.pdf
for calculations on how to do damage via vaporization (there is a note that
vaporization is probably not necessary for a kill).  This is for missiles,
but you could make some assumptions about a human (just use the heat of
vaporization for water).  The primary advantage on firing on a human seems
to be that you don't need a 1 meter wide beam.

I've seen an industrial laser penetrate a stack of layered fabric over two
meters thick in a split second.  It was being used to cut cloth to the
pattern desired.  Penetration seems to be a matter of spot size and
energy deposited.  I was told that the same laser would easily, and just
as rapidly, slice a human into two strangers with the same speed and
efficiency.

The optimum wavelength is largely a matter of what is the optimum
wavelength in the atmosphere, which might vary some by planet.  Here
on earth, the optimum wavelength seems to be 1.3 nm, which can be produced
either by the COIL (chlorine/oxygen/iodine) or DF overtone (two deuterium
flouride lasers tuned to create a single overtone).

In fact, it is now claimed by the Space Based Laser documentation, that
a satellite-based laser could be used to strike individual ground targets
as small as a man. They claim now that there would be virtually no loss
if they were to use the DF overtone laser. Keep in mind that the beam
diameter at that distance would be 1 meter, and the fluence would be
high enough to completely vaporize 3mm thickness of mild steel in a
few milliseconds.

They are making the assumption now that the enemy *will* try and make
the target reflective.  Most humans, unless armored, will make a much
more cooperative target for lasers operating in the 1.3nm region.

Yes, someone will see this beam using NVG and perhaps even thermal
sights.  But such weapons can also be used with a rotating mirror at
much lower power levels to rapidly and randomly cover an area with
high enough energy to permanently damage even passive optics like
a simple pair of binoculars, and to permanently blind any human unlucky
enough to be looking in the wrong direction.

Maybe we would all be reduced to blindly wandering about with Laning's
battle axe, looking for each other.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAF897A.E39681FF@premier.net>


"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> 
> From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
> 
>      "...looked up nuclear dampers.  First available at TL 12."
> Sir,
> 
>      Well, that settles that theory.
> 
>      "You have to get all the way from TL 6 or 7 to TL 12 without them, but
> still dealing nukes.  Jump drives start at TL 9, so you have to get from 9
> to 12 with the capability for interstellar delivery of nukes."
> 
>      So until TL 12, MAD and geographical/astrographic dispersal are the
> trumps, usually.

Given that starship laser turrets are available at TL 7 (HG2, page 25,
they add a point-defense wild card to the deck.

It would seem that the authors of HG2 anticipated some aspects of
SDI.... ;-)

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406185112.00ab8e30@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn, after writing a fairly impressive summary of lasers as weapons, 
says:
>I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
>discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
>methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.
>
>I would be particularly be interested in the amount of power required to
>produce a lethal beam, and compare that to the energy required to drive a
>gauss projectile at book 4 velocities.

I second the motion.  And please consider the laser's value as a penetrator 
of armor?  The old timey steel kind, the contemporary kevlar kind, and 
whatever you feel is useful about the unobtainium kinds posited for higher 
tech levels.

Tod, your previous analysis of felt recoil vs muzzle energy, etc. Just 
found its way onto my hard drive.

Oh, I should mention that attempts to post to tml@travellercentral.com were 
giving me error 550 messages and bouncing a short while ago.  Roughly 1830 
eastern time.  Duration of problem seemed to be less than half an hour, so 
just a burp, I guess.  Possibly the mail server daemon was really busy at 
the time, I dunno.  Probably old news to you.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:02:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:02:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
In-Reply-To: <001801c1ddb2$e0895ba0$52200050@matt>
References: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406185801.00abbec0@pop.wizard.net>

Regarding what devastated Darrian, Matt Bond enlightens us:

>As I recall, one project was going to use two interfering beams of some type
>or radiation to probe the interior of the Star, and the other was to use a
>probe with some kind of ablative heat shielding.
>
>Both projects were being conducted semi-secretly and independently. That is
>to say that neither team was particularly aware of the other project.
>
>Both projects happened to reach their final stage at the same time, and each
>performed its experiment simultaneously.

If you're a player or referee even halfway inclined to make use of 
conspiracies, then this extreme coincidence should be enough to excite your 
interest.



><<<snip>>>
>Subsequent revelation that the Zhodani had been watching the Darrians in
>secret for centuries (due to the Zhodani fears that the Maghiz was the
>result of some Darrian Super-weapon) has lead to the Darrian distrust of the
>Zhodani, and their allying with the Imperium in the Frontier Wars.

Well, whether it was a conspiracy, an accident, or a weapons experiment, 
the Darrians do seem to end up knowing how to produce a Darrian 
SuperWeapon.  I like to think of it as the gods punishing Ikaros for 
forgetting his place.  Or Grandfather keeping precocious humans from 
becoming too troublesome (to other sophs in general?  to some project of 
Grandfather's?  to Grandfather himself?).  And I delight in stirring my 
players to worry about all these possibilities without knowing which is the 
truth.  Which doesn't make me an Evil Referee.  I'm hardly fiendishly 
clever enough for that.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:12:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:12:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0378F.26380.9082ED@localhost>

On 6 Apr 2002 at 15:11, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Also, water (and by analogy tissue) is a great thermal sink. 55 calories
> to raise 1 cc of water 1 degree centigrade, IIRC.

I think that's 1 calorie. However it's 4.2J to raise 1g of water 1 
degree Celsius. Then there's the .226 J/g to turn boiling water into 
steam, and then about 2 J/g to raise a gram of steam's temperature by 1 
degree. You'd be looking at about 500 J/g to turn flesh into not very 
hot (or high pressure) steam.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:13:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:13:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0378F.6868.90823C@localhost>

On 6 Apr 2002 at 6:59, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      A few you forgot to mention;
>      Kuzu - The Aslan's Second World War was nuclear, the Third one,
>      which 
> the arrival of "Pathfinder" prevented, was going to nuclear too.  Shame
> it didn't happen.
>      Asmodeus - A balkanized Zho world in the Marches had a nuclear
>      exchange 
> sometime in the 1090's.  Guess the Thought Police were all out getting
> doughnuts.
>      Unknown - IIRC, there's a balkanized world mentioned somewhere in
>      canon 
> that went nucelar.  The population there lived in domes and levels took
> quite a nose dive before the Marines could intervene.

How about the Ilelesh Revolt? Didn't the Imperium scrub the sector 
capital clean of life as an example to others?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C656.3788B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406191311.02844050@pop.wizard.net>

Wonderful.  Tod is doing a good job of convincing me of the superiority of 
gauss weapons to gunpowder weapons...just as my character in Tod's game is 
in an already terrifying combat situation--and the bad guys mostly use 
gauss weapons while our guys use mostly gunpowder.  Ruh roh.

This is on top of the various other combat advantages the bad guys have 
already established for themselves.  And I freely admit that our side could 
have done a better job of matching them in a lot of ways.  Part of our 
failure to do so is because we were so busy roleplaying instead of being 
munchkins.  :->

--Laning aka Krowaka


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <3CAF897A.E39681FF@premier.net>
References: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406192030.02845720@pop.wizard.net>

John Groth reminds us of another card on the table:

>Given that starship laser turrets are available at TL 7 (HG2, page 25,
>they add a point-defense wild card to the deck.
>
>It would seem that the authors of HG2 anticipated some aspects of
>SDI.... ;-)

Hm.  I was just about to proclaim laser-based missile defenses as the 
salvation of sophonts everywhere over the past centuries.  Regardless of 
real life opinions on the topic, that seems satisfying enough for Traveller 
purposes.  But there's still that nagging thing about the Rebellion being 
able to get away with nuclear bombardments when nobody previously 
could.  This should be good enough for most of my players, as they aren't 
familiar with Traveller to begin with and there is no Rebellion 
IMTU.  Practical problem solved at least for now.  Intellectual problem 
still a bit lingering.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 17:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr  6 17:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020407112641.A1980@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
> discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
> methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.

The best I've seen (and calculated) is to produce a train of pulses
lasting a millisecond or so, with pulses a few tens of microseconds
apart.  The collimation requirements are pretty stringent thought; for
this application you want to be able to focus on a region just a
couple of millimetres across.  Each pulse need only have a few tens of
joules, and the pulse train as a whole needs a kJ or so to give
similar penetration to a 9mm pistol bullet.  With more energy, you can
obviously do more damage, relax the focus requirements, and/or get
better penetration.

Such a weapon would most certainly *not* be silent.  At the target the
'bang' of superheated vapour would be far louder than the
corresponding sound of a bullet impact; more like the firing of an
unsuppressed slugthrower.  The pulses themselves would also disturb
the air through which they pass, but this would be a more diffuse and
dificult to localise sound.

Wavelengths near visible light are best, since most other frequencies
are absorbed by the atmosphere more strongly.  At handgun ranges this
probably isn't a problem though.  I would suggest near-UV.  This also
diminishes the danger to the retinas of unintended targets from beam
scattering, since UV is absorbed by the cornea (I think).


> I would be particularly be interested in the amount of power required to
> produce a lethal beam, and compare that to the energy required to drive a
> gauss projectile at book 4 velocities.

Very similar.  Both look to be in the 5-10 kJ range for effective
antipersonnel use.  The laser would have slightly lower wounding
potential and worse armour penetration, but may need only energy and
has no recoil at all.  It would probably also be more adaptable to
various uses (e.g. longer-duration cutting or drilling).  The gauss
weapon would probably have better wounding potential and lower recoil,
but needs both physical ammunition and energy.  Maintenance may be
more of a problem than chemical slugthrowers in both cases, unless
technology is sufficiently advanced.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
References: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020406185801.00abbec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <002901c1dde3$af25f6a0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "laning" <laning@wizard.net>
> Well, whether it was a conspiracy, an accident, or a weapons experiment,
> the Darrians do seem to end up knowing how to produce a Darrian
> SuperWeapon.

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately if you are on the other side...) the
devastation caused by the Maghiz destroyed all records of one of the
experiments (the interfering beams), so until the players discover the
necessary evidence of the second experiment in the adventure in the back of
Alien Module 8: Darrians, the Darrian Starkiller weapon is pure bluff. They
believed it was purely due to the probe, and tough that their failure was
due to imperfect records of the probes construction. They managed to
convince their neighbours through a rigged demonstration that they still had
the technology to induce a mini-nova. (I seem to recall that they used some
recovered Tech-G sensors to locate a star that was slightly unstable anyway
to do their demo on, that lesser sensors would think was stable).

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] pilot specs
In-Reply-To: <20020405.205600.-3247.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> What are the real life size minimum and maximum hight 
> requirements for a combat fighter pilot?

In general the minimums are set so that you can see over 
the dashboard, and the maximums are set so that your knees 
don't get cut-off when you use the bang-seat. 

What those measurements are depend on what combat aircraft
your force is flying. 

Frankie







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:32:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:32:56 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> war.

I don't see it making any change, as this unwillingness to
slaughter is actually pretty normal and has been throughout
history.

Not that _everybody_ has this unwllingness, but the vast majority
of people do, including most soldiers.

> People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.

Actually, no. That only happens against psychotic invaders who
you know will kill you if you surrender.

If you are fighting "normal" invaders, the majority of the people
don't fight at all, as they don't care who is in charge, one lord
is the same as another.

_Most_ peoples stop fighting when their armies have been defeated
or have surrendered, and most armies stop fighting when they
believe they cannot win.  They may not have been defeated at that
point.

Only fanatics, or people who have nothing to lose, such as those
who are guilty of war crimes so know they will be put to death,
keep fighting.

> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

And just as any other piece of propaganda, the descriptions in
the Old Testament were somewhat overblown.
It was common to ascribe such tactics to the barbarians of the
past, and the enemies of the present. If all the peoples and
towns that supposedly had been put to the sword actually were,
the population of the world would have taken much longer.

> It's barbaric, I know.

It's also extremely wasteful, and almost guarantees that you will
fail in the short term.

The "Thousand Year Reich", an organization that was oppressive
and actively treied to eliminate their enemiew, lasted less than
a couple of decades.

The Roman "Empire", which in the main did not go round trying to
destroy peoples, but was largely tolerant and inclusive, lasted
several centuries.  It finally fell because it became oppressive
and intolerant.

> But if you want to get the message across that Our
> Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you
> have to do.

To be an effective invader you do _not_ want to get across the
idea "We won and You lost", you want to get across the idea that
"We, including you, all Won, and the bad guys who used to rule
you lost"

> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.

This is probably outweighed by the loss of the planet as an
industrial base

Not to mention that the M.A.D doctrine is even more effective in
the stellar arena.

As soon as you do this without "just cause" you have made enemies
of every other polity in the galaxy (except perhaps the K'Kree
who are already in this position).

Also it is _very_ easy to set off a few nukes on your capital
world, even if it is far behind the frontlines, and your Navy
can't prevent it without isolating the capital from all trade,
which would have even _more_ effect than the nuke, as shown by
the aftermath of Sept 11th.

> Their ships might have to chase those missiles instead of
firing on
> the attackers.

Very unlikely, a few nukes on the planet are not worth losing the
battle over, and anyway, the planet is likely to have better
anti-missile defences than the ships.

> And how many nukes does it really take to lay
> waste to an advanced industrial society?

A huge number.

More than the the arsenals of China, the USA, and the USSR put
together when at maximum strength, in fact.

Unless you have a few "big" enough to crack the crust, and if you
have that sort of capabilty, _nobody_ is dsafe, and it's even
less likely anyone will use the capability in a normal
(non-xenophobe) war.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] pilot specs
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <20020405.205600.-3247.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406224027.00cc5150@192.168.0.1>

At 03:41 PM 4/7/2002 +1200, Frank Pitt wrote:
>generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> > What are the real life size minimum and maximum hight
> > requirements for a combat fighter pilot?
>In general the minimums are set so that you can see over
>the dashboard, and the maximums are set so that your knees
>don't get cut-off when you use the bang-seat.

The Maximum mentioned is what kept my brother out of the Air Force.
He was *that close* to signing up till he was measured from hip to knee.
3/4" too long for the FB-111.

>What those measurements are depend on what combat aircraft
>your force is flying.

-----------------------------------------------------
"Freedom is man's capacity to take a hand in his own
development. It is our capacity to mold ourselves."
-- Rollo May  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
-----------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CF6F3E.3427B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20406.200715.2D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find anything.  OK,
> I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite terrorist building
> these?

Because *being* a Luddite, they aren't familar with the tech?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:44:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:44:11 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20406.204246.6R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/6/02 1:06 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.
>> 
>> I have trouble picturing a coilgun as being *practical* in a man
>> portable size. Railguns are almost as bad, but at least you don't need
>> to switch all that power *repeatedly* and with precise timing dozens of
>> times per shot.
>
> The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
> build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.

For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:46:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:46:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Combat Armor & Battle Dress
References: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <DAV17bZEHQQE9OFLkxt00005c25@hotmail.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_010A_01C1DDBC.7A6DF060
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gentlebeing Murphy asks regarding weight and volume of Combat Armor and =
Battledress in MegaTraveller.=20


Armor                            TL            Volume            Weight  =
          Cr

Combat Armor 11            11                2.9                18       =
         20k
Combat Armor 12            12                1.8                10       =
         30k
Combat Armor 14            14                0.7                6        =
          60k
Battle Dress     13            13                3.8                26   =
             200k
Battle Dress     14            14                2.7                12   =
             350k
Cmbt Env Suit                  10                 6                 2.0  =
              1,000

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was also of extremely limited value.   =
...(T)he steers were incapable of understanding what was happening and =
articulating their concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. =
Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

------=_NextPart_000_010A_01C1DDBC.7A6DF060
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Gentlebeing Murphy asks regarding weight and volume =
of Combat=20
Armor and Battledress in MegaTraveller. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Armor&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
TL&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Volume&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Weight&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Cr</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Combat Armor 11&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2.9&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
18&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;20k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Combat Armor 12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
1.8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;30k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Combat Armor&nbsp;14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;60k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Battle =
Dress&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;13&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
13&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3.8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;26&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;200k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Battle =
Dress&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2.7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;350k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Cmbt Env=20
Suit&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2.0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1,000</FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:texasredshift@hotmail.com">texasredshift@hotmail.com</A><B=
R><A=20
href=3D"mailto:billws@sysmatrix.net">billws@sysmatrix.net</A></FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The shooting of the steers was also of extremely =
limited=20
value.&nbsp;&nbsp; ...(T)he steers were incapable of understanding what =
was=20
happening and articulating their concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by =
Evan P.=20
Marshall and Edwin J.=20
Sanow</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_010A_01C1DDBC.7A6DF060--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <20406.204246.6R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c1ddf0$419a3800$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>

> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.

Or Ha-Un batteries (Batteries made from a mixture of Handwavium and
Unobtainium)...

<g>

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 21:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 21:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20406.204246.6R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D51C82.37945%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 8:42 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
>> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
>> build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.
> 
> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.

??

Why permanent magnets.  A rialgun doesn't use magnetic fields in the manner
of a coil gun.  We just have two parallel rails and the armature
(projectile).  We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
in the loop and acting on the armature.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 21:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 21:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <000b01c1ddf0$419a3800$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <B8D51CD6.37946%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 8:54 PM, Matthew Bond at mattgbond@ntlworld.com wrote:

>> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
>> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.
> 
> Or Ha-Un batteries (Batteries made from a mixture of Handwavium and
> Unobtainium)...

Assuming you are using batteries.  Perhaps a small, highly efficient
compulsator?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 21:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 21:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEPIGEAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Sound like a reprise of the old Golden Bridgers and the 
relentless pursuit practitioners.  Historically, leaders tended 
to publicly Golden Bridegers but the chronicles tend to show 
more then one slaughter of routed losers.  I would tend to think 
that term, (the day of battles), a routed side tended to get 
slaughtered afterwards you were pretty safe


OB Trav

Mercs would tend to be golden Bridgers.
The Imperium would tend to believe in relentless pursuit, u
until you acknowledge you are thumped

(1)  golden bridge = extend a golden bridge to a fleeing enemy  

jml

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> war.

I don't see it making any change, as this unwillingness to
slaughter is actually pretty normal and has been throughout
history.

Not that _everybody_ has this unwllingness, but the vast majority
of people do, including most soldiers.

> People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.

Actually, no. That only happens against psychotic invaders who
you know will kill you if you surrender.

If you are fighting "normal" invaders, the majority of the people
don't fight at all, as they don't care who is in charge, one lord
is the same as another.

_Most_ peoples stop fighting when their armies have been defeated
or have surrendered, and most armies stop fighting when they
believe they cannot win.  They may not have been defeated at that
point.

Only fanatics, or people who have nothing to lose, such as those
who are guilty of war crimes so know they will be put to death,
keep fighting.

> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

And just as any other piece of propaganda, the descriptions in
the Old Testament were somewhat overblown.
It was common to ascribe such tactics to the barbarians of the
past, and the enemies of the present. If all the peoples and
towns that supposedly had been put to the sword actually were,
the population of the world would have taken much longer.

> It's barbaric, I know.

It's also extremely wasteful, and almost guarantees that you will
fail in the short term.

The "Thousand Year Reich", an organization that was oppressive
and actively treied to eliminate their enemiew, lasted less than
a couple of decades.

The Roman "Empire", which in the main did not go round trying to
destroy peoples, but was largely tolerant and inclusive, lasted
several centuries.  It finally fell because it became oppressive
and intolerant.

> But if you want to get the message across that Our
> Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you
> have to do.

To be an effective invader you do _not_ want to get across the
idea "We won and You lost", you want to get across the idea that
"We, including you, all Won, and the bad guys who used to rule
you lost"

> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.

This is probably outweighed by the loss of the planet as an
industrial base

Not to mention that the M.A.D doctrine is even more effective in
the stellar arena.

As soon as you do this without "just cause" you have made enemies
of every other polity in the galaxy (except perhaps the K'Kree
who are already in this position).

Also it is _very_ easy to set off a few nukes on your capital
world, even if it is far behind the frontlines, and your Navy
can't prevent it without isolating the capital from all trade,
which would have even _more_ effect than the nuke, as shown by
the aftermath of Sept 11th.

> Their ships might have to chase those missiles instead of
firing on
> the attackers.

Very unlikely, a few nukes on the planet are not worth losing the
battle over, and anyway, the planet is likely to have better
anti-missile defences than the ships.

> And how many nukes does it really take to lay
> waste to an advanced industrial society?

A huge number.

More than the the arsenals of China, the USA, and the USSR put
together when at maximum strength, in fact.

Unless you have a few "big" enough to crack the crust, and if you
have that sort of capabilty, _nobody_ is dsafe, and it's even
less likely anyone will use the capability in a normal
(non-xenophobe) war.

Frankie


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 22:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 22:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 7 Apr 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <o8pvaugdbvlibj4ikplrj5seooqrgqoqv7@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - More internal changes, plus all of the pages have been updated to
   reflect our new contact address(es), at freelancetraveller.com. The old
   Yahoo! address will continue to work for a while, but you will get
   faster responses by writing to the new addresses. 

 - John T. Kwon brings us a design for the Virtus-class Solomani
   Infiltrator. Read it in The Shipyard. 

 - Joe Webb brings us another JTAS Adventure Contest winner. You can read
   Sex and the Single Vargr in Active Measures. 

 - Kate Thumann brings us the first Traveller "Choose-Your-Own-Adventure",
   Scout's Honor. You can download it from Active Measures. 

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the (working!) feedback form at
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/infocenter/feedbackform.html.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to visit our site
and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our existence
possible.



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 23:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Sat Apr  6 23:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4A39D.37862%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIEANDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

Tod,

RE= Mg *((MbVb+MpVp)/Mg)^2 in Joules

where:  Mg is the mass of the gun
        Vg is the mass of the bullet
        Mp is the mass of the propellant
        Vp is the velocity of the propellant.  Typically
        noted as a constant (1200 m/s)


What is Mb?  Vb? in this equation.

Jusitn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 23:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 23:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204070730.g377U0h29022@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
...
>> The K'kree seem to be the only major polity that believes in
>> re-surfacing planets as a matter of policy. There's all sorts
>> of amateurs that try and compete for the title, but mostly sanity
>> (MAD) or cultural constraints interfere.
>
>I would expect that when it came to the K'kree, their opponents would adopt
>the same attitude.  Something like the US policy on chemical weapons. "No
>first use".  But if you use them, will give it right back and in spades.

  Even the K'kree seem to have opted to be harshest when the suffering 
will be effectively monopolized by their vict^h^h opponents.

  ObTrav: never trust a herd animal? :>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 23:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 23:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIEANDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8D53600.37962%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 11:16 PM, Justin Bunnell at jbunnell@yahoo.com wrote:

> Tod,
> 
> RE= Mg *((MbVb+MpVp)/Mg)^2 in Joules
> 
> where:  Mg is the mass of the gun
> Vg is the mass of the bullet
> Mp is the mass of the propellant
> Vp is the velocity of the propellant.  Typically
> noted as a constant (1200 m/s)
> 
> 
> What is Mb?  Vb? in this equation.

Oops.  Mb= mass of bullet, Vb is velocity of bullet.

I should proofread more carefully.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 00:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 00:05:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Combat Armor & Battle Dress
References: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CAFFDF2.801EA808@virgin.net>

--------------85F01DDED7191BA32DD8BE91
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:

>   Hi,
>   While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I
> discovered that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game
> (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of
> the different models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
>   Could someone help me out?
>   Thanks :)
>  -Ken Murphy-

If you are in the uk, i can help easily as i have a spare (well actually
it is my only one but i don't use it).  Otherwise it will take a few
days.

Simon


--------------85F01DDED7191BA32DD8BE91
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp;
Hi,</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp; While going through
my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I discovered that I no longer
have that 3rd book from the boxed game (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which
gives the weight and volume of the different models of Combat Armor and
Battle Dress.</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp; Could someone help
me out?</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp; Thanks :)</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</font></font></blockquote>

<p><br>If you are in the uk, i can help easily as i have a spare (well
actually it is my only one but i don't use it).&nbsp; Otherwise it will
take a few days.
<p>Simon
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--------------85F01DDED7191BA32DD8BE91--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 00:26:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 00:26:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>

laning wrote:

> <snippety, snip, snip>
> IMTU, laser weapons do minimal damage.
> <snippety, snip, snip>
> I also reduce the damage on gauss weapons by a bit, because of the gauss
> weapons in equipment lists are smaller caliber than most gunpowder weapons
> in the same category.  A projectile is a projectile.  Whether it was made
> to go very fast by a gunpowder explosion or a magnetic acceleration doesn't
> make any difference, as long as it is going the same speed.
>
> --Laning

Just to confirm things here, the Gauss/Rail/coilgun weapons DOES NOT fire the
projectile at similar speeds to 'gunpowder' weapons.  The last i heard (and
this was about 5+ years ago), current (at the time) railgun technology was
managing to accelerate a small plastic pellet (about 1" across IIRC) to over
22km/s (declared) and it was punching through 6" steel plating as if it were a
shaped charge.  We are now 5+ years on so that will have improved somewhat.
Now extrapolate on a few millennia and put the new improved kit in a portable
form and you have the Gauss Gun.

The drawback are that, due to the inherent speed of the projectile, you will
produce a sonic 'boom' (albeit a small one) in all but the 'rarest'
atmospheres.  Also, I would expect the extreme pressure waves to form minute
contrails (someone correct me here if i am floundering into strange
territories) and therefore make it relatively easy to detect where the shots
were originating from (but also acting like a form of tracer to the firer as
well).

Now, using the good ok EnergyK=0.5 x M x V x V, I would approximate that a 4g
needle from a gauss gun at 20 km/s would, theoretically, gave about 0.8 MJ of
kinetic energy, enough to knock anyone off their feet and punch a big hole in
everything apart from hulls and bulkheads (gearheads can you please confirm
both calculations and also what it should/shouldn't penetrate :-) )

A good example of this would be the railgun effects in 'Eraser' (a s**t film
apart from that bit though)

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 00:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 00:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20020405224838.04445dd0@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <3CB00424.9F0823FB@virgin.net>

Richard Wilson wrote:

> At 04:59 PM 4/4/02, you wrote:
> >Mark Urbin wrote:
> > > I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> > > I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor
> > > training.
> >
> >I used to work a a company that tried for (and got) ISO 9000/9001
> >certification: it was easy-peasy!
> >
> >1) Have a documented procedure for everything
> >2) Make sure all staff know where the latest  versions  of  those
> >    documents are (ie. where on the PC server)
> >
> >The fact that we didn't actually follow those  procedures  (close
> >scrutiny would have revealed they were unworkable anyhow)  didn't
> >seem to matter.
> >
> >Its just a case of understanding the game.
> >
>
> Funny, the auditor who is checking the company I work for keeps wanting to
> see actual proof that we are following our procedures.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> Richard Wilson

As someone who has done ISO 9000 series to death (and back) it basically boils
down to:

1.    Say how you intend to meet the ISO requirements
2.    Prove that you are doing what you say in 1.

the accreditors are not concerned (neither should they be) with how you meet
the ISO requirement, only that you have a system in place to meet them and
that you use the system that you have said you will.

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 01:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 01:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 12:26 AM, Si at mr.fingle@virgin.net wrote:

> 
> Just to confirm things here, the Gauss/Rail/coilgun weapons DOES NOT fire the
> projectile at similar speeds to 'gunpowder' weapons.  The last i heard (and
> this was about 5+ years ago), current (at the time) railgun technology was
> managing to accelerate a small plastic pellet (about 1" across IIRC) to over
> 22km/s (declared) and it was punching through 6" steel plating as if it were a
> shaped charge.  We are now 5+ years on so that will have improved somewhat.
> Now extrapolate on a few millennia and put the new improved kit in a portable
> form and you have the Gauss Gun.

A railgun will fire the projectile at a velocity proportional to the current
applied.  You could build a railgun to fire a projectile at a lower velocity
of required.  The current military designs for railguns employ an aluminum
sabor to propel a standard tank gun penetrator at something like 2
km/second.  Not bad for a 15 lbs projectile.
> 
> The drawback are that, due to the inherent speed of the projectile, you will
> produce a sonic 'boom' (albeit a small one) in all but the 'rarest'
> atmospheres.  Also, I would expect the extreme pressure waves to form minute
> contrails (someone correct me here if i am floundering into strange
> territories) and therefore make it relatively easy to detect where the shots
> were originating from (but also acting like a form of tracer to the firer as
> well).

I recall the test you refer to.  The projectile actually created a contrail
of ionized gas much like a micrometeorite.
> 
> Now, using the good ok EnergyK=0.5 x M x V x V, I would approximate that a 4g
> needle from a gauss gun at 20 km/s would, theoretically, gave about 0.8 MJ of
> kinetic energy, enough to knock anyone off their feet and punch a big hole in
> everything apart from hulls and bulkheads (gearheads can you please confirm
> both calculations and also what it should/shouldn't penetrate :-) )


Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
20 km/sec.

ME is 0.8 MJ

Assume a weapon mass of 4.5 kg (slightly heavier than Book 4, about 10 lbs
or close enough).  That gives a free recoil energy of 1422 J.  A .458 win
mag elephant gun has a free recoil of 81 J, about the most anyone can
tolerate.  No one will be shooting this.

Let's reset the numbers with a target free recoil of 100 J  and see what we
can come up with.  Again assume a rifle massing 4.5 kg.  If we are still
using the 4mm, 4g projectile, we can tolerate a velocity of 4743 m/s.

That works out to be 45,000 J.  Pretty respectable. The mighty .458 win mag
only generates about 5400 J.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 04:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr  7 03:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <010301c1de1d$72819f80$a85d8690@computer>

> From: sneadj@mindspring.com
> I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because
> humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill
> that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate
> thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in
> Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost
> any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something
> separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before.

The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
million or more - far greater than the examples given above.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 05:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 04:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Time Travel
In-Reply-To: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16uAur-0007IU-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

I'm fairly certain this won't work, but if by some miracle it does we 
might get to see what the 57th century will *really* look like.

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/095/metro/Professor_s_time_tra
vel_idea_fires_up_the_imaginationP.shtml

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 05:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr  7 04:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20406.231818.6W1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Jens Rydholm wrote:
>> My main aim isn't to recreate the original Traveller sequence. If I'd
>> wanted that, I'd just use it instead of First In  ;-)
>> 
>> However, I want roughly the same spread of intelligent races as in typical
>> SF, ie the most common environment for sentinent life to evolve in is on
>> Earthlike worlds.
>> 
>> I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might look
>> under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary after a
>> while.
>> 
>> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
>> function using radically different biochemistries?
>
> Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
> reprinted in various places.

Asimov never had a column in Analog. His column was in F&SF. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 05:38:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr  7 04:38:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20406.232122.6w2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Well, odds are the lock won't work at all then.  Plus, who says you're
> going to
>> put a thumbprint lock on the _inside_ of the lock?
>
> Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
> kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
> Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Take off your suit glove (the wrist will seal, same as if you'd
punctured it). Put your thumb on the reader. 

Once you get inside treat your hand for the swelling, edema, and
rupturing on minor surface blood vessels.

Esposure of your hand to vacuum is *painful*. But the amount of damage
is rather like that for frostbite. Short exposure won't do serious
damage.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 06:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Sun Apr  7 05:13:03 2002
Subject: Traveller Non-Lethals (was Re: [TML] Niches)
References: <20020407082906.CCBE427AFE@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0378D.B52CD94E@earthlink.net>

Mark Urbin posted:
> 
> At 12:41 PM 4/6/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >Tod Glenn says:
> [snip]
> >The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
> >from Book 4.  How about YTU?
> 
> I think people like Snubs because they have HEAP & HE ammo.
> 
> >In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a
> >good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
> >been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.
> 
> T4 has 'em.

So did CT. The publication was the adventure "Divine Intervention".

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 06:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 05:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8D51C82.37945%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAEENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod says:

[We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
in the loop and acting on the armature.]

ObTrav: Can the expert spot the vehicle with the railgun? 
Look for the longer, heavy duty barrel, perhaps with an
external truss.

A railgun would probably require more rigid construction
to resist this force, which would be considerable if the weapon
was designed for very high power (like a vehicle mounted weapon).

The barrel might be much more substantial than a typical 
slugthrower barrel, which has most of its reinforcement in the
breech area.  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn says

[
Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
20 km/sec.

ME is 0.8 MJ

Assume a weapon mass of 4.5 kg (slightly heavier than Book 4, about 10 lbs
or close enough).  That gives a free recoil energy of 1422 J.  A .458 win
mag elephant gun has a free recoil of 81 J, about the most anyone can
tolerate.  No one will be shooting this.

Let's reset the numbers with a target free recoil of 100 J  and see what we
can come up with.  Again assume a rifle massing 4.5 kg.  If we are still
using the 4mm, 4g projectile, we can tolerate a velocity of 4743 m/s.

That works out to be 45,000 J.  Pretty respectable. The mighty .458 win mag
only generates about 5400 J.
] endBlock

As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.  The first example you give is 10%
of that.  The second example has a free recoil somewhere above the elephant
gun.

ObTrav:  To be controllable in full auto, I would think we would want the
free recoil down in the M-16 range (which is dubious, if you've ever
tried to hit something at 100 yards on full auto with the M-16).  I've
also noticed that as soon as recoil levels go over, say, a light rifle
in .243, people begin to notice, and when they notice, they either flinch,
or are apprehensive about firing, especially the first round.

ObTrav2:  Tod, how do we arrive at various penetration and damage values for
CT,
MT, etc.?  FFS might be easy, and maybe we could work our way backwards.
Other game systems, such as PCCS, are extremely easy to back-calculate.

Now, I'm up there with Jeff Cooper in wondering why recoil is a problem,
but then again, I've never tried a .460 Weatherby.  Might make a flincher
out of me.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0F014.30539.36165A5@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 9:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> ObTrav:  To be controllable in full auto, I would think we would want
> the free recoil down in the M-16 range (which is dubious, if you've ever
> tried to hit something at 100 yards on full auto with the M-16).  I've
> also noticed that as soon as recoil levels go over, say, a light rifle
> in .243, people begin to notice, and when they notice, they either
> flinch, or are apprehensive about firing, especially the first round.

They do? Even my sisters didn't consider the SMLE to be excessive once 
they were adults. It was a bit heavy when we were 10 or 12, though. 
I've always thought that recoil isn't significant until you're dealing 
with light, light .270 Winchesters, light .30-06's and up.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <200204071328.DNX00358@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
<snip about learning to shoot when you're young>

Yes, I'm with you that recoil "should not" be a problem, 
especially if you learn to shoot when you're young.

But a lot of people in the US Army have never fired a weapon 
prior to joining up, and many of them are flinchers with an M-
16.  Scary.

I don't really have a problem in recoil, unless, as you say, 
the rifle is too light.  The heavier calibers, such as 
the .375 H&H, tend (to me at least) to feel like a giant 
shove, and the smaller high velocity calibers (the 7mm 
Remington Magnum being one) tend to have a sharper recoil 
spike.

ObTrav:  I really believe in the -5 DM for people who have no 
gun skill.  But -- it only takes a few afternoons of proper 
instuction to get rid of this.  I would assume that 
adventurers have taken the time to teach their fellow 
adventurers (someone with Instruction would be best).
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204071328.DNX00358@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0F5B7.22180.3776D4B@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 9:28, John T. Kwon wrote:

> But a lot of people in the US Army have never fired a weapon 
> prior to joining up, and many of them are flinchers with an M-
> 16.  Scary.

I didn't see that with the guys, but many of the women who joined up 
having never handled a real rifle had problems. Not so much flinching 
as poor and unsteady grip. I don't think some of them ever held the 
weapon steady enough for it to be called a flinch as such. To my great 
surprise everyone in my intake ultimately passed.

> ObTrav:  I really believe in the -5 DM for people who have no 
> gun skill.  But -- it only takes a few afternoons of proper 
> instuction to get rid of this.  I would assume that 
> adventurers have taken the time to teach their fellow 
> adventurers (someone with Instruction would be best).

I'd go along with that.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <8bj0busac4ql4qivsl46eujfq619pq2mb4@4ax.com>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 00:26:03 -0800, "Mark Seemann" <mark@seemann.ms> wrote:

>Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:14:38 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>wrote:

>> We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your 
>> site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which 
>> was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on 
>> the whole series of events?

>While I can't remember the sequence of event, my library data tells me
>there were indeed two projects: The Abh and Udh projects.

>These library entries were taken from the Classic Traveller Alien Module
>8: Darrians, but I can't remember the rest of the story. However, if you
>really want me to, I can go look it up.

The Abh Project involved sending a probe deep into the star; it was kept
cool enough to survive by venting tungsten.

The Udh project involved mapping the interior of the star using crossed
beams of (microwaves?).

The flare happened when the intersecting beams went through a region where
the Abh probe had vented tungsten; the resulting reaction propagated along
the 'tungsten trail' until it reached the star's surface, where it went
nasty.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <8bj0busac4ql4qivsl46eujfq619pq2mb4@4ax.com>
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407080316.009f24b0@mindspring.com>

At 09:48 AM 4/7/02 -0400, you wrote:
>The Udh project involved mapping the interior of the star using crossed
>beams of (microwaves?).

Mesons.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 09:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Sun Apr  7 08:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com> <010301c1de1d$72819f80$a85d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CB06657.8060405@gmx.net>

Alan Bradley wrote:

>>From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>>I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because
>>humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill
>>that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate
>>thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in
>>Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost
>>any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something
>>separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before.
>>
>
>The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
>Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
>million or more - far greater than the examples given above.
>
What about the ratio of 'civilian' deaths to 'military' deaths? Who gets 
the award for most civilian casulties compared to military casulties, 
not overall numbers?

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 10:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 09:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407111020.027e6d50@pop.wizard.net>

Si quotes me then says:
>laning wrote:
>
> > <snippety, snip, snip>
> > IMTU, laser weapons do minimal damage.
> > <snippety, snip, snip>
> > I also reduce the damage on gauss weapons by a bit, because of the gauss
> > weapons in equipment lists are smaller caliber than most gunpowder weapons
> > in the same category.  A projectile is a projectile.  Whether it was made
> > to go very fast by a gunpowder explosion or a magnetic acceleration doesn't
> > make any difference, as long as it is going the same speed.
> >
> > --Laning
>
>Just to confirm things here, the Gauss/Rail/coilgun weapons DOES NOT fire the
>projectile at similar speeds to 'gunpowder' weapons.  The last i heard (and
>this was about 5+ years ago), current (at the time) railgun technology was
>managing to accelerate a small plastic pellet (about 1" across IIRC) to over
>22km/s (declared) and it was punching through 6" steel plating as if it were a
>shaped charge.

Let's see if I can express myself better this time.  I am not trying to say 
that gauss weapons are only capable of matching gunpowder weapons 
performance.  I was trying to say that if you build a gauss weapon and a 
gunpowder weapon that each propel an identical projectile to an identical 
speed and spin, then the projectiles will both behave identically as they 
go down range.

There have been posts (primarily from Tod Glenn) since my post quoted above 
that let's say strongly suggest it would be unlikely that anyone would 
bother to build gauss weapons that way.  Instead, makers of gauss weapons 
would send a lighter, skinnier, longer projectile down range and at hugely 
greater velocities than anyone would bother to try to make a gunpowder 
weapon do even if they could make it do so.  I was trying originally to say 
that if gauss weapon makers are underperforming in a particular niche of 
gun type, all they have to do is come up with a gauss weapon that throws 
essentially the same slug at essentially the same speed and spin as the 
gunpowder weapons they are competing with.

Assuming that weapon/ammo prices of both are comparable, which they 
probably are not but this is so far out in the realm of science fiction 
that we really can't confidently predict what the prices would be.  So the 
prices are whatever you want to make them.

My reason for making the canonical gauss rifle do somewhat less damage than 
say a battle rifle firing standard 7.62 NATO is that I am not entirely 
convinced that making a lighter skinnier projectile go hugely faster and 
making it a lot longer is necessarily going to produce the wounding results 
predicted by the experts who are designing and testing these things.  I 
think a large dollop of conservatism is a healthy thing in such 
matters.  Let's see production models in real combat or hunting and used by 
regular people, and in uncontrolled conditions.

Please note that I am not _rejecting_ claims from gauss weapon 
proponents.  I am being slow to accept them.  I should also point out what 
I posted earlier:  I am reconsidering my house rule on gauss weapon damage, 
mostly because of things Tod Glenn has said.  I made those house rules many 
years ago and haven't been prompted to change them since.  But maybe I 
will, now.  They're just a science fiction item in a science fiction game, 
and I don't feel it's criminally stupid of me to make gauss weapons IMTU 
behave differently than gauss weapons in someone else's TU.  My players 
have been happy with my rules for twenty years, and generally the ones with 
the most knowledge of military firearms have been the happiest.  That tells 
me that my rules aren't just completely ludicrous.  If my version of gauss 
weapons bothers you, then maybe you will find some relief to know that I 
wholeheartedly agree about those magic snub pistols not being able to 
penetrate armor as well as they canonically do.  IMTU, they don't.  You can 
have a HEAP round in your snub pistol, and it may improve it's penetration 
in many circumstances.  But it will still penetrate more poorly than a HEAP 
round from a standard autopistol.  My usual snub pistol description is 
roughly the .25 auto "lady's gun".

If you're curious about what I would change my house rules to say on gauss 
weapons, here's what I am thinking about maybe doing.  Or I may decide not 
to since it's been fun to play with the rules I'm used to and it's just a 
game.  I'm thinking about crunching the numbers with the formulae helpfully 
provided by Tod Glenn using canonical gauss weapon designs and probably a 
couple or three other designs of my own.  Translate the results back into 
Traveller combat stats.  Work through each of the ammo types I believe 
would be useful and decide what differences to implement for a projectile 
that is much longer, proportionally than comparable gunpowder bullets.  I'm 
guessing that some ammo types will be more expensive and others 
cheaper.  And HEAP may be less effective because higher velocities and 
probably faster twists and smaller diameters can be counterproductive for 
that type of ammo, but perhaps the longer projectile will help.  I am also 
thinking about making the gauss weapon itself a lot more expensive.  Or 
not.  I can think of reasonable arguments both ways.  And making gauss 
weapons more fragile than gunpowder weapons.  Or again, perhaps not.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 10:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Apr  7 09:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>

From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>

     "The Abh Project involved sending a probe deep into the star; it was 
kept cool enough to survive by venting tungsten."

     "The Udh project involved mapping the interior of the star using 
crossed beams of (microwaves?)."


Mr. Zeitlin,

     Intersecting meson beams being used as some sort of active sensor 
system.  The beams also need to intersect at a "shallow", or obtuse, angle 
with each other.  The beams in the case of Tanis system were projected from 
two widely seperated locations the system's planetoid belt.
     This adds some complexity to any deploymeny of the Star Trigger.  The 
obtuse angle of intersection required for the meson beams means that two 
projectors at near opposite "sides" of a star must be used.
Two ships would then be a minimum; one to release the probe and project a 
beam, the other to project the second beam.  Naturally, the vessels would 
have to be in communication with each other to coordinate the meson beam 
aiming point.  How quickly the tungsten cooled probe, which is only used to 
"seed" the star with that material, can be inserted into the star is 
unknown, as is how much tungsten needs to be vented.
     IIRC, the effects aren't seen for many hours and, presumably, the meson 
beams need to operated for that entire length of time.
     All of this makes the Star Trigger a rather finicky device.  Actual 
deployment of the weapon would require a large, sustained effort on the 
Confederation's part and the use of many vessels.  For example, the vessels 
projecting the two meson beams would have to do so from beyond the star's 
jump limit, otherwise the mission would be a suicidal one.  That suggests 
that the vessels would need to be very large and very specialized to carry 
and operate the (spinal mounted?) meson beam equipment.  Whether the 
projection equipment could be switched between a weapons role and a Star 
Trigger role is unknown.  The Star Trigger vessels may have to be convoyed 
and protected by significant numbers of warships during any deployment.
     This may be part of the reason why the Sword Worlds haven't been on the 
recieving end of one yet.  The devastation that such a strike would also 
inflict on both Imperial and Confederation systems may also be part of the 
answer.
     <<< SPOILER ALERT >>>














     The current Darrian Star Trigger does not work.  The adventure in CT's 
AM 8, the Darrians, has the PCs being hired to perform a multi-world search 
for archival information regarding the two scientific projects that 
triggered the original Maghiz.  If, IYTU, this mission fails or the 
reason(s) for it is/are not suspected, the Star Trigger is little more than 
an extremely effective bogeyman.
     As a strategic deterrent, the Star Trigger works because BOTH parties, 
the Darrians and their enemies, believe it does.  Zho agents probing Star 
Trigger personnel will learn that those personnel believe that the Trigger 
works and thus "confirm" it's existence.
     One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star 
Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was 
faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon says:
>ObTrav2:  Tod, how do we arrive at various penetration and damage values for
>CT,
>MT, etc.?  FFS might be easy, and maybe we could work our way backwards.
>Other game systems, such as PCCS, are extremely easy to back-calculate.

I was going to actually do some work on my own to find the requisite 
formulae, but that is guaranteed to take a lot longer, I'm sure.  It 
wouldn't be surprising if Tod can recite them from memory.  :->

>Now, I'm up there with Jeff Cooper in wondering why recoil is a problem,
>but then again, I've never tried a .460 Weatherby.  Might make a flincher
>out of me.

Recoil is a problem.  As my right eyebrow can testify.  Every time I'd go 
to the rifle range, the flange on the carrying handle of the M-16A1 would 
kick into my eyebrow.  Never took more than a dozen rounds for the eyebrow 
to be bleeding.  But it didn't stop me from shooting about 238 to 242 out 
of 250 on a consistent basis.  Not competition material, but just shy of 
it.  I got to play with the M-16A2 once and got to qualify with it one time 
before I was discharged.  The butt stock is three-eighths of an inch 
longer, and that helped with eye relief a little.  I did still bleed, but 
it took probably 30 rounds to get me bleeding, and the bruising and 
bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but 
at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier 
to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always 
wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.

A lot of weapons are awkward in the first few rounds of full auto, but can 
be brought back onto target if you continue firing a long or very long 
burst.  Every BAR gunner I've ever talked to said it's very controllable 
and accurate with that technique, for instance.  And a couple of people 
have told me they could hip fire the 5.56 gatling gun accurately that way 
(see the movie 'Predator' for a very fictional example).  The phrase I keep 
hearing from people who've relied on this technique is "you just ride it".

There's a difference between recoil and felt recoil.  One of the main 
things that can be done to reduce felt recoil is change the design of the 
rifle stock from having curves intended to fit your body better to being a 
straight "in line" stock, like the M-16 and most assault rifles and battle 
rifles.  It distributes the forces from the recoil better.

In other words, there are a lot of things that can be done to control or 
manage recoil.  And to some extent, troops can be trained or can train 
themselves to suppress or forget the flinch response.  (Myself as an 
example, above.)  "Flinching is for fairies," is probably how my old friend 
would sum that up.  But I wouldn't expect something with _felt_ recoil 
comparable to a .458 Winchester Magnum to be something you could put on 
general issue to troops, it's just too much for most of them, especially 
when you think about them firing it often hundreds of times per day instead 
of just a couple of times like a big game hunter.  Tod's high performance 
gauss weapon in his previous example was chosen for being at the upper 
limit of what is practical.  For humans.  One might suppose Aslan could 
handle more.  And other races with more radically different designs might 
be more capable of handling much greater.  Just as I expect Vargr can't 
handle as much as humans and many other races even less than that.  Droyne, 
anybody?

By the way, they call it a carrying handle but don't _ever_ carry it that 
way unless you want everyone in the area who outranks you jumping up and 
down and going crazy on you.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <200204071732.DOF00615@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
<snip about weapons, and then a mention of the snub pistol>

I thought that the snub pistol was, like the accelerator 
rifle, something like the Gyrojet of old.

I've been thinking that like Tod says, the diameter of the 
round is too small to have any actual HEAP (HEAT) jet 
effect.  A long time ago, the snub pistol IMTO became an 
over/under pistol firing a rocket round.  The diameter is 
25mm (very impressive if you're looking down the wrong end), 
and the round is essentially a small grenade, not unlike the 
OICW round.  Designed to minimize fragments, except very 
small shaped charge, rather like an HEDP round without the 
extra fragments.  Still, given the backblast, you don't want 
to fire it without a faceshield (which is why users are 
generally in a vacc suit, combat armor, or some such).  Made 
specifically for zero-g combat, and to penetrate suits at 
shipboard ranges.

ObTrav:  There was a great effort in the Phoenix Command 
combat system, in the High Tech supplement to design weapons 
specifically for shipboard use.  These weapons were 
purposefully designed to limit penetration - there was even a 
standard maximum penetration depth in equipment that was 
allowed, so that shipboard equipment that was vital could be 
built with this standoff in mind.  Think about what would 
happen if there was a circular firing squad in Traveller on 
the typical merchant ship bridge - even if we're only using 
shotguns and the occasional laser carbine.  What weapons 
might we consider (including non-lethals) if we're going to 
be able to board - and subsequently use - a ship?

Me, I'm willing to try the sticky foam dispenser.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407111020.027e6d50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5D1E5.379BD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 9:19 AM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

Lanning, I'm getting a bit worried when I see my name appearing in so many
of your posts.  I am not the gauss weapon prophet.

> 
> There have been posts (primarily from Tod Glenn) since my post quoted above
> that let's say strongly suggest it would be unlikely that anyone would
> bother to build gauss weapons that way.

Note that I did a comparison of a gauss and non-gauss versions of the same
rifle.  The rifle in question was the M1A (semi version of the M-14) in
7.62x51mm.  The only difference in performance is that a gauss weapon will
have less recoil firing the same bullet at the same velocity.  This is
solely because there is no expelled propellant by byproducts contributing to
recoil.

[snip]

 
> Please note that I am not _rejecting_ claims from gauss weapon
> proponents.  I am being slow to accept them.  I should also point out what
> I posted earlier:  I am reconsidering my house rule on gauss weapon damage,
> mostly because of things Tod Glenn has said.  I made those house rules many
> years ago and haven't been prompted to change them since.  But maybe I
> will, now.  They're just a science fiction item in a science fiction game,
> and I don't feel it's criminally stupid of me to make gauss weapons IMTU
> behave differently than gauss weapons in someone else's TU.  My players
> have been happy with my rules for twenty years, and generally the ones with
> the most knowledge of military firearms have been the happiest.  That tells
> me that my rules aren't just completely ludicrous.  If my version of gauss
> weapons bothers you, then maybe you will find some relief to know that I
> wholeheartedly agree about those magic snub pistols not being able to
> penetrate armor as well as they canonically do.  IMTU, they don't.  You can
> have a HEAP round in your snub pistol, and it may improve it's penetration
> in many circumstances.  But it will still penetrate more poorly than a HEAP
> round from a standard autopistol.  My usual snub pistol description is
> roughly the .25 auto "lady's gun".

Just bear in mind that HEAP round have to travel slowly and can't be spun or
they won't work.  If you look at the velocities of modern AT missiles,
you'll note that they're very low, and for a reason.  The warhead needs time
to form the penetrator jet.  it's unlikely that snub weapons are going to
have stand-off noses, so velocity will have to be low.  Spinning the
projectile disperses the jet, so that's out too.
> 
> If you're curious about what I would change my house rules to say on gauss
> weapons, here's what I am thinking about maybe doing.  Or I may decide not
> to since it's been fun to play with the rules I'm used to and it's just a
> game.  I'm thinking about crunching the numbers with the formulae helpfully
> provided by Tod Glenn using canonical gauss weapon designs and probably a
> couple or three other designs of my own.  Translate the results back into
> Traveller combat stats.  Work through each of the ammo types I believe
> would be useful and decide what differences to implement for a projectile
> that is much longer, proportionally than comparable gunpowder bullets.  I'm
> guessing that some ammo types will be more expensive and others
> cheaper.  And HEAP may be less effective because higher velocities and
> probably faster twists and smaller diameters can be counterproductive for
> that type of ammo, but perhaps the longer projectile will help.  I am also
> thinking about making the gauss weapon itself a lot more expensive.  Or
> not.  I can think of reasonable arguments both ways.  And making gauss
> weapons more fragile than gunpowder weapons.  Or again, perhaps not.


See above.  HEAP is unusable at high velocities and high rates of spin. A
few other things to consider:  A coil gun requires a ferromagnetic
projectile.  No lead or other material.  If it's a railgun, the armature
(projectile) just has to be conductive.  At hypervelocity, there is little
to be gained using special projectiles.  The canonical description of the
gauss round as a hollow point with an armor-piercing core id far more
complicated that necessary. The example used previously is more than
adequately lethal.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAEENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5D411.379C1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 5:54 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@comcast.net wrote:

> ObTrav: Can the expert spot the vehicle with the railgun?
> Look for the longer, heavy duty barrel, perhaps with an
> external truss.
> 
> A railgun would probably require more rigid construction
> to resist this force, which would be considerable if the weapon
> was designed for very high power (like a vehicle mounted weapon).
> 
> The barrel might be much more substantial than a typical
> slugthrower barrel, which has most of its reinforcement in the
> breech area.  

I remember some photos of the railguns built at the University of Texas for
the Army FMBT project.  They look pretty much identical to conventional
barrels, except for the square bore opening.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5D942.379C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 6:04 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@comcast.net wrote:

> ObTrav2:  Tod, how do we arrive at various penetration and damage values for
> CT,
> MT, etc.?  FFS might be easy, and maybe we could work our way backwards.
> Other game systems, such as PCCS, are extremely easy to back-calculate.

I have copies of both FFS and FFS2.  AFAICT, CT figures are just arbitrary.

FFS2 uses SQRT(ME)/10.5 to calculate damage.  I've never liked determining
damage bases solely on muzzle energy.  Instead, I use my own formula where
damage is bases on actual energy transferred to the target.

I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.  The base human target
is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.  We take the
initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the
remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.  From this we
can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.  We use this energy
to calculate damage.

In the case of things like conventional handguns, there are lots of
published sources with total ballistic gelatin penetrations.  Knowing the
density of this material, we can back calculate the retardation and energy
transferred.

This systems gives a measure of 'actual damage'  and we don't have to relay
on then 3D rules and 'lost energy due to 'shoot through'.

> 
> Now, I'm up there with Jeff Cooper in wondering why recoil is a problem,
> but then again, I've never tried a .460 Weatherby.  Might make a flincher
> out of me.

I shoot my .458 win mag Whitworth Express rifle all the time.  Preferred
loading is 500gn hard cast bullet with 72 gn 4895.  I'm not a big guy, but
if find this load 'stimulation' to shoot.  I've never really been bothered
by recoil.  Most people who shoot this do it only once.  I will say a tight
hold on the rifle is essential.  I probably have done my shoulder any good.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 10:18 AM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Recoil is a problem.  As my right eyebrow can testify.  Every time I'd go
> to the rifle range, the flange on the carrying handle of the M-16A1 would
> kick into my eyebrow.  Never took more than a dozen rounds for the eyebrow
> to be bleeding.  But it didn't stop me from shooting about 238 to 242 out
> of 250 on a consistent basis.

You've got talent.  With the old M16A1, I always put the tip on my nose on
the charging handle to make sure I had exactly the same cheek weld.  I'd
often shoot the M16 from my chin or groin to demonstrate it's lack of
recoil.

> bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but
> at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier
> to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always
> wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.

Try shooting one full auto.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3CB08DED.97126F82@virgin.net>

--------------8640A99E3980EE50F0202E80
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"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
>
> [snip]
> Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
> 20 km/sec.
>
>
> As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
> APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.  The first example you give is 10%
> of that.  The second example has a free recoil somewhere above the elephant
> gun.

Don't disagree there.  But I was talking about a small infantry weapon, not a
vehicle/free standing anti-armour weapon

Si

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
"John T. Kwon" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Tod Glenn says
<p>[snip]
<br>Let's crank the numbers.&nbsp; Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile
at
<br>20 km/sec.
<br>&nbsp;
<p>As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
<br>APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.&nbsp; The first example you give
is 10%
<br>of that.&nbsp; The second example has a free recoil somewhere above
the elephant
<br>gun.</blockquote>
Don't disagree there.&nbsp; But I <u>was</u> talking about a small infantry
weapon, not a vehicle/free standing anti-armour weapon
<p>Si</html>

--------------8640A99E3980EE50F0202E80--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020407111020.027e6d50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB08FDE.F6F24BCE@virgin.net>

laning wrote:

> Si quotes me then says:
> >laning wrote:
> >
> > > Let's see if I can express myself better this time.

[huge snip]

Yep.  I have no problem with anything you say.  You did however, have a concern
with the damage from a thin-body penetrator compared (as well as you can) with a
'standard' round and i think I might be able to help there.  One thing about
hypervelocity (and hence hyper energy as it is the velocity squared that more than
compensates for the greatly reduced mass) penetrators doing damage is that the
target area (IIRC) behaves as if it were a fluid, IRRESPECTIVE of what it is made
of (depending of course upon the energy of the penetrator).

I am sure someone will correct me (in the politest possible terms) if i am wrong.

;-)

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB08DED.97126F82@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5DE82.379D4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 11:20 AM, Si at mr.fingle@virgin.net wrote:

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
Tod Glenn says 

[snip] 
Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
20 km/sec. 
 

As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.  The first example you give is 10%
of that.  The second example has a free recoil somewhere above the elephant
gun.
Don't disagree there.  But I was talking about a small infantry weapon, not
a vehicle/free standing anti-armour weapon

A weapon with a 4 gm projectile being fired at 20 km/s is not a small
infantry weapon.  The recoil is obscene.  I'd say an upper limit on free
recoil should be no more than 50 J, with 25 J being more realistic.

Si 


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 13:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 12:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
Message-ID: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

	Okay, so I'm considering writing up my own shipbuilding rules ("Yeah,
yeah, kid, you and everybody else - take a number and wait in line."),
and there were a couple of factors that I haven't seen (or have missed)
in the various ships rules in different editions of Traveller:

	Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 'workstations',
but it seems to me that most ships (at least ones that carry passengers)
would require some sort of galley for food preperation.  Has anyone seen
or worked up rules for the minimum size of a ship's galley, based on the
number of crew and passengers carried?

	Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
on the number of ship's crew and other factors?


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."





________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 14:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun Apr  7 13:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1de72$5c0c6a00$2f7de40c@loki>

Both have always been outside the rules proper though some systems have
made galleys/stores something one could add if they desired.

I remember a lot of debate about the topic once upon a time. The general
conclusion--abhorred by some--was that the stateroom figure subsumed the
common spaces required to support them.

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 14:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 13:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>

--part1_30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced_boundary
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In a message dated 07/04/02 19:10:37 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


> I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.  The base human target
> is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.  We take the
> initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the
> remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.  From this we
> can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.  We use this energy
> to calculate damage.
> 

Isn't 30cm a little thick? 18cm - 20cm is the normal figure I see quoted.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 07/04/02 19:10:37 GMT Daylight Time, webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.&nbsp; The base human target<BR>
is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.&nbsp; We take the<BR>
initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the<BR>
remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.&nbsp; From this we<BR>
can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.&nbsp; We use this energy<BR>
to calculate damage.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Isn't 30cm a little thick? 18cm - 20cm is the normal figure I see quoted.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8D60220.379F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 1:58 PM, CHam628781@aol.com at CHam628781@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 07/04/02 19:10:37 GMT Daylight Time,
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.  The base human target
is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.  We take the
initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the
remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.  From this we
can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.  We use this energy
to calculate damage.


Isn't 30cm a little thick? 18cm - 20cm is the normal figure I see quoted.

Charles


I measured the thickness of a few friends and came up with about 12" from
front to back for an average chest thickness, or 30 cm.  YMMV.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches - correction.
In-Reply-To: <B8D5D942.379C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8D60286.379FA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 11:08 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

I just looked over my calculations and noted that I forgot to divide by 2
when calculating energy. (i.e. e= mv^2/2).  Please note the error.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407154204.033249d0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn, replying to my rifle range scores with the M-16A1:
>You've got talent.  With the old M16A1, I always put the tip on my nose on
>the charging handle to make sure I had exactly the same cheek weld.  I'd
>often shoot the M16 from my chin or groin to demonstrate it's lack of
>recoil.

Thanks, that's encouraging to hear.  And I used the exact same technique 
with my nose on the charging handle to more precisely get the same cheek 
weld.  One of my buddies in boot camp may have done permanent damage to his 
arm by getting too tight a loop sling all day at the range.  He shot well, 
ne'ertheless.  Chin or groin?  The recoil I recall is more than enough to 
discourage me from trying that one.  It was popular for the marksmanship 
instructors and coaches to tell the troops that, "The M-16 fires a .223 
calibre bullet.  That's the same as a .22.  You aren't going to be afraid 
of a .22 are you?"  This was more useful as propaganda than actual 
fact.  Most of the Americans recruited into today's military have no prior 
experience with firearms of any kind so this might work.  They at least 
have heard enough to know that a .22 is a pretty wimpy little thing.


> > bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but
> > at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier
> > to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always
> > wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.
>
>Try shooting one full auto.

I'd love to!  My curiosity will never be satisfied til I've tried out all 
these weapons that I use in gaming.  And who knows, maybe there'll be the 
chance at the big annual WW2 gathering in Reading, Pennsylvania this 
June.  Sort of like a Ren Faire for WW2 enthusiasts, reenactors, costumers 
who like that period, and everyone else.  It includes a three-day 
reenactment of the Battle of the Bulge.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407172540.00aa2c20@pop.wizard.net>

> > bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but
> > at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier
> > to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always
> > wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.
>
>Try shooting one full auto.

As long as I'm at it, I'd be very interested in shooting the Italian 
BM-59  (I think it's 59), which was essentially the M-14 with some 
improvements.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DE82.379D4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB08DED.97126F82@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407172827.00acfec0@pop.wizard.net>

>
>A weapon with a 4 gm projectile being fired at 20 km/s is not a small
>infantry weapon.  The recoil is obscene.  I'd say an upper limit on free
>recoil should be no more than 50 J, with 25 J being more realistic.

Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread, mentioning the 
ability of various Traveller races to cope with recoil, I should have also 
mentioned battle dress.  That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more 
recoil.  But how much?

-Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F33B1HQroJCIoo8oEoL000062ea@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "How about the Ilelesh Revolt? Didn't the Imperium scrub the sector
capital clean of life as an example to others?"


Mr. Boleyn,

     Thanks, I forgot about that one.
     The Imperium evacuated the population from Ilelish's tropical regions 
and "scrubbed" the "equatorial regions free from life."
     I'd assume (a shocking habit) that the people involved were simply 
moved to the planet's temperate zones rather than off world.  Having the 
remaining population living next door to the lesson being "taught" would 
fulfill the Imperium's requirements nicely.
     The IN then sterilized the equatorial zone with a bombardment of 
enhanced radiation warheads (neutron bombs).  This would allow them to kill 
off everything without triggering a "nuclear winter" of sorts.  They may 
have followed up the bombardment with liberal use of large meson gun spinal 
mounts to "pitchfork" the terrain.
     Ilelish's equatorial zone must have looked like a baked and barren 
jumble of craters, tells, and fissures.  New Mordor anyone?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <200204072135.DON00704@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning asks
>
>Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread, 
>mentioning the ability of various Traveller races to cope 
>with recoil, I should have also mentioned battle dress.  
>That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more recoil.  But 
>how much?
>

Good question.  I've always wondered about this, because if 
you could carry large weapons and handle high recoil, you 
would have a semi-auto rifle that fired high velocity 20mm 
(not low velocity 20mm like the OICW).

20mm californium rounds, that is.  The one part of Striker I 
really liked.  Hit someone in battledress and watch the 
little mushroom cloud.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:55:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:55:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB168FD.22000.23BF80@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 11:15, Tod Glenn wrote:

> You've got talent.  With the old M16A1, I always put the tip on my nose
> on the charging handle to make sure I had exactly the same cheek weld. 
> I'd often shoot the M16 from my chin or groin to demonstrate it's lack
> of recoil.

My preferred method of supporting the M16A1 was to have my right hand 
(I'm a lefty) open and simply rest the forend on my palm. I found the 
rifle would bounce and then recover to the same point of aim all by 
itself, which made getting a good  sight picture for following shots 
quick and easy. Don't try this with the AUG - you'll lose it and 
probably get the optic sight banged into your eyebrow. It may be 
heavier but it's rather butt heavy so it jumps quite a bit more than 
the M16A1.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D60220.379F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 14:03, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I measured the thickness of a few friends and came up with about 12"
> from front to back for an average chest thickness, or 30 cm.  YMMV.

Do you give out less damage for hits in thinner places, or do you just 
assume a poor damage roll reflects this? And wouldn't the chest tend to 
be less dense than other parts of the body due to the 'air-filled' 
lungs?

Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth 
for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and 
for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females 
it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing. 
Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how 
old the data is.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407180357.0331dc40@pop.wizard.net>

Perry says he's developing shipbuilding rules:
>         Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 
> 'workstations',
>but it seems to me that most ships (at least ones that carry passengers)
>would require some sort of galley for food preperation.  Has anyone seen
>or worked up rules for the minimum size of a ship's galley, based on the
>number of crew and passengers carried?

Nothing I'm aware of.  And you make a very good point.  Perhaps finding Web 
sites or actual books on kitchen design is the best thing for 
that.  Especially restaurant kitchens.

We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including ironing.  Every 
service a hotel provides, basically.

>         Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
>amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
>other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
>that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
>rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
>on the number of ship's crew and other factors?

There are rules in all or most versions of Traveller for baggage and cargo 
allowances for passengers.  I assume baggage goes in their stateroom and 
cargo is containerized and placed in the cargo hold.  Ship's lockers are 
certainly recommended, and usually appear in published deck plans and 
privately designed ones.  But that doesn't leave pantry space, linen space, 
etc.  You might want to find a textbook on hotel planning, and look at 
military field manuals and technical manuals for logistics planning.  And 
surely the real life sailors have some knowledge about this.

In fact maybe both your questions and all related questions can be answered 
using real world naval architecture references.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEODCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Just finished reading a hardcopy of AK wounds in Vietnam.
A medical summary report on "Da Nang lung" which was 
pulmonary edema brought on by unregulated overuse of 
intravenous fluid replacement (without regard to electrolyte
balance).  Death was the result, usually two to three days
after successful repair operations.

The point I nearly missed is that most rifle wounds in the
prone are plunging fire which enters the shoulder area,
and failing deflection on the shoulder blade, penetrates in
a downward diagonal towards the pelvis.  This caused a
lot of damage, which, if it missed kidneys and major
blood vessels, was not immediately fatal.  It did
necessitate a lot of repair, and the lack of knowledge
in the 1960s about fluid replacement resulted in death.

The distance from the shoulder blade to the hip socket,
taken at a diagonal, is a considerable distance.  Most AK
rounds evidently stopped after traveling this far in the
body. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407180357.0331dc40@pop.wizard.net>
References: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407151942.0248eec0@mail.verizon.net>

>We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including 
>ironing.  Every service a hotel provides, basically.

Even hookers?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB168FD.22000.23BF80@localhost>
References: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407181218.033aa1f0@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert:
>My preferred method of supporting the M16A1 was to have my right hand
>(I'm a lefty) open and simply rest the forend on my palm. I found the
>rifle would bounce and then recover to the same point of aim all by
>itself, which made getting a good  sight picture for following shots
>quick and easy. Don't try this with the AUG - you'll lose it and
>probably get the optic sight banged into your eyebrow. It may be
>heavier but it's rather butt heavy so it jumps quite a bit more than
>the M16A1.

Yes.  You want your rifle sling stretched nice and tight, partly so that 
you can wedge your foreward hand into the narrow angle between the taut 
sling and the ...argh how can I have _forgotten_ the proper 
nomenclature!  Just shoot me now.

Anyway, with your hand tightly wedged in, and a fairly stable triangle of 
tension between that forward hand, its elbow nicely resting on the ground 
or your knee, and the opposite shoulder, you should go right back to the 
same sight picture pretty quickly and naturally.

Firing in the "offhand position" was always the hardest for me.  Prone, 
kneeling, sitting, or anything else you can do to brace against something 
immovable (like the ground or a wall or a tree) makes a huge, huge 
difference.  Firing with nothing in particular to help you hold the thing 
steady is tough.  Standing, "rapid" fire, is tricky.  I started out just 
doing it through sheer concentration and did okay.  I then experimented 
with figure eight and other similar techniques when I heard about 
them.  Which were good for improving my score a little but seemed to have 
very little practical application on the battlefield.  I think I would have 
been great at trench warfare.  I don't know about patrolling, though.  Even 
someone who doesn't anticipate or flinch is going to have a tough time 
aiming at and hitting anything if everybody is running/walking around.

For referees with little or no experience shooting, please keep in mind the 
importance of firing from a braced position (prone is probably the most 
ideal) and also the importance of having many seconds to aim at an unmoving 
target.  Or if it's moving, then moving very steadily and predictably is 
almost as good as immobile.  Also, untrained or insufficiently trained 
personnel have a strong tendency to anticipate the recoil by actually 
raising the front of the weapon themselves as they squeeze the trigger.

I suspect anticipation is the single greatest cause of close-range pistol 
combats that result in nobody being hit by a bullet.  It happens all the 
time.  Anticipation, fear, adrenaline, inability to concentrate well enough 
to remember to try to use even the most elementary and easy principles of 
marksmanship.  The more I learn about how many reasons there are for people 
not hitting their opponent in combat, the more respect I develop for Alvin 
York.  And the more important I think it is to deal with your fear ahead of 
time, so you can you put it out of your mind during combat.

--Laning
"Fear is the mind killer."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
References: <B8D60220.379F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407183334.027f11c0@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert:
>Do you give out less damage for hits in thinner places, or do you just
>assume a poor damage roll reflects this? And wouldn't the chest tend to
>be less dense than other parts of the body due to the 'air-filled'
>lungs?
>
>Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth
>for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and
>for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females
>it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing.
>Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how
>old the data is.

Reporter:  "How can you shoot children and teenagers like that, Corporal?"
Corporal:  "Easy.  You use a lighter load."

-Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEODCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407183737.028bbdd0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon:
>The distance from the shoulder blade to the hip socket,
>taken at a diagonal, is a considerable distance.  Most AK
>rounds evidently stopped after traveling this far in the
>body.

Useful to keep in mind when shooting at K'Kree or the like.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEODCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB173E1.15599.4E49DB@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 18:15, John T. Kwon wrote:

> The distance from the shoulder blade to the hip socket,
> taken at a diagonal, is a considerable distance.  Most AK
> rounds evidently stopped after traveling this far in the
> body. 

IME a 7.62x39mm round when fired from an SKS, which has a longer barrel 
than an AK-47, at a goat from a fairly short range (maybe 20 yards) 
will travel through its entire length (in this case approximately 2 
feet) and stop inside the skin without exiting. That would be about the 
same distance, allowing for the elasticity of the goat's skin. The goat 
died effectively instantly because the bullet passed through its heart 
and the major vessels on top of it.

Just another data point.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407181218.033aa1f0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CB168FD.22000.23BF80@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB17502.746.52B49D@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 18:32, laning wrote:

> For referees with little or no experience shooting, please keep in mind
> the importance of firing from a braced position (prone is probably the
> most ideal) and also the importance of having many seconds to aim at an
> unmoving target.  Or if it's moving, then moving very steadily and
> predictably is almost as good as immobile.

But if they're ducking and weaving and bolting from cover to cover in 
an unpredicable manner you can pretty much forget more than the most 
basic aiming. In these cases I recommend a machinegun.

Also followup shots from a trained shooter are much faster than the 
first shot, as you've already done most of the aiming for the first 
shot - all you're doing for the later shots is correcting for the 
effects of recoil.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB17502.746.52B49D@localhost>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOECGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Rupert Boleyn says
[But if they're ducking and weaving and bolting from cover to cover in 
an unpredicable manner you can pretty much forget more than the most 
basic aiming. In these cases I recommend a machinegun.]

At ranges up to about thirty yards, using a pump-action paintball
gun with crude post sights, I was able to hit people who were running,
dodging, popping their heads up over cover intermittently...

That's not full auto, nor is it a high velocity weapon.

No problem.

The running people don't dodge nearly as much as they think.  This is
more of a factor where time of flight of the round is significant.  Figure
a tenth of a second for every hundred yards of flight, and you can see
that the dodge is really something that has to be anticipated rather 
than seen.  Below "tenth of a second" range, dodging is relatively 
ineffective, and tracking a running target is largely a matter of practice.
I had an instructor who claimed to kill VC bikers on 1-beer bets - that is,
he would use an M-14, and if he got them on the first round, he got a beer.
Some of his friends from that time laughed, because they remember him
*always* getting his beer.

Oddly, I do better on moving targets if I'm standing.

People who peek out from behind cover only get to do it once with me.
What's even more funny is that most of the people I've hit in 
paintball like this probably saw the one I put right over their
head to make sure of where the next one was going. 

ObTrav:  Your enemy will use the terrain around you to spot the
fall of his fire, and will adjust accordingly.  If you stay in the
same spot, and peek out repeatedly, you're going to get nailed.  They
may even resort to tricks to get you to look twice.  There are many
anecdotes about people being killed when they "just look".

ObTrav: Shooting at a moving target is a matter of practice if the
target moves in a straight line, regardless of velocity. The exception
comes when the target is "uncertain" as in the next ObTrav.

ObTrav: Dodging effectiveness is the result of "movement uncertainty".
The best explanation of this is that after you release the round,
the target has time to move.  For a target at 500 yards, this can be
nearly half a second -- unless you're using a laser rifle.  Imagine
trying to anticipate whether or not a moving man will stop, bend down,
turn or not nearly 1/2 second into the future.  So you put a lot of 
rounds into his general vicinity with a machinegun.  They say that 
the real sniper is the man who can anticipate this movement. The only
combat system that I've seen that models this is PCCS.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
Message-ID: <OF0BD69FC0.8B0C14DC-ONCA256B94.00752218@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

I haven't seen "GDWGAMES" around for a while.

I know Loren was having access problems - does anyone know if that is 
still the case?

Failing that, perhaps you could select one of the following:
        1.      On holidays;
        2.      Attempting to retrieve gear from his fabled lock-up on the 
other side of the US;
        3.      Snowed under (and as he's in Texas, you _know_ I mean this 
as an analogy for workload! ;-);
        4.      Banned from 'Net access by the Illuminati;
        5.      Stuck in a box in Warehouse 23 (maybe with some Zhodani 
infiltrators, cf. Challenge 60 or thereabouts);
        6.      Shipped out on a _Donosev_ (along with Stuart Ferris, 
didn't he just get his Surveyor's Cert.?);
        7.      All of the above;
        8.      None of the above [insert your version of events here].

Que?

<sigh> It must be Monday.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
Message-ID: <200204072341.DOR00933@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I keep wondering about those passenger prices.  It doesn't 
make any sense.  If I fly from Washington, DC to Newark, NJ, 
it's cheaper than flying from Washington, DC to Los Angeles, 
CA.

There is also a hub system in the US, which rewards you for 
transferring in places like Cincinnati and Atlanta, but I'll 
leave that out.

So, we've got two merchant ships.  One is Jump-1, and goes to 
and from a nearby star.  The other is Jump-5, and goes to 
another star 5 parsecs away.  Theoretically, if there's a 
Jump-1 route, you could take the Jump-1 ship to get to the 
Jump-5 destination, but it would take five tickets to get 
there.  Now, if I'm a Jump-5 ship, and I'm going 5 parsecs, 
the next fastest ship (a Jump-4 perhaps) can get you there 
for two tickets.  So what should I charge you?  I'm betting 
that I could charge more than the price of a single ticket, 
and you would still take my ship because it's less and you 
get there a week ahead of time.

Has anyone hashed out what ticket prices really should be?
Or cargo transport, for that matter.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOECGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <3CB17502.746.52B49D@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB18225.32194.860812@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 19:09, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn says
> [But if they're ducking and weaving and bolting from cover to cover in
> an unpredicable manner you can pretty much forget more than the most
> basic aiming. In these cases I recommend a machinegun.]
> 
> At ranges up to about thirty yards, using a pump-action paintball
> gun with crude post sights, I was able to hit people who were running,
> dodging, popping their heads up over cover intermittently...
> 
> That's not full auto, nor is it a high velocity weapon.
> 
> No problem.

That's like using a shipboard laser at sub-light second ranges though - 
they don't have time to move out of the way. Besides at that range 
doing much the same thing I didn't use the sights most of the time, but 
just pointed the gun at the victim - it was faster and just as (in) 
accurate.
 
> The running people don't dodge nearly as much as they think.

That's probably because running and dodging are generally incompatible.

> Oddly, I do better on moving targets if I'm standing.

I'm not surprised - it's easier to get a smooth motion and a good 
follow-through.
 
> People who peek out from behind cover only get to do it once with me.
> What's even more funny is that most of the people I've hit in paintball
> like this probably saw the one I put right over their head to make sure
> of where the next one was going. 

People who peek from behind cover more than once deserve what they get, 
IMO. So do people who come to a firefight without backup and buddies.

> ObTrav: Dodging effectiveness is the result of "movement uncertainty".
> The best explanation of this is that after you release the round, the
> target has time to move.  For a target at 500 yards, this can be nearly
> half a second -- unless you're using a laser rifle.  Imagine trying to
> anticipate whether or not a moving man will stop, bend down, turn or not
> nearly 1/2 second into the future.  So you put a lot of rounds into his
> general vicinity with a machinegun.  They say that the real sniper is
> the man who can anticipate this movement. The only combat system that
> I've seen that models this is PCCS.

IIRC you needed the advanced expansion for this.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020407234850.57151.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
If that retinal scanner makes the crew sit through
three or four rescans before it lets them in, or
mistakes them for a terrorist a couple times a week,
expect the retinal scanner to be bypassed before the
ship comes out of its first jump.
END QUOTE

Thats what fire axes are for!

HAL:Come on Dave be reasonable! Put the axe down!
Dave, Dave! NOOOOOOOO...0).^%^$&9&##5.

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 18:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 17:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <20020408000859.81953.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
People who strap on a PGMP-15 to go to the
'fresher annoy me,  IMTU they'll have to make
do with a shotgun.
END QUOTE

Well if nasty things happen to you every time you go
to the fresher you get paranoid! In my old group
(non-trav) we had a particularly nasty Ref, it got to
the point where my characters refused to go any where
with out two other armed characters! And I still died
alot! Though I survived longer than most. The greatest
thing ever was all the munchkins we had in the group
they where very good for cannon fodder ;) After a
while it got quite hard to walk anywhere due to the
amount of gear I was carrying. 

Me:All right essential equipment only, 3 LAW's check,
powered battle armour check, heavy machine gun check,
2000 rounds check, 12 white phosporous grenades check,
12 frag grenades check, semi-auto shotgun check, 200
rounds solid check, 200 rounds flechette check,
satelite phone check, 12mm pistol check, 100 rounds
12mm check, 20kg C4 check, 2 litres holy water check
(can never be to careful), 6 customised throwing
penguins check. <To other PC's> Okay Im going to the
bathroom now. If you here me scream or Im not back in
15 minutes call in an airstrike.

;)

James (Oh no, not Cthulhu again!) Ramsay

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 18:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 17:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
Message-ID: <95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9@aol.com>

--part1_95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Last time I spoke to him (just a couple of days ago, actually) he had just
acquired a new computer for home use and was in the process of getting
set up on it. I imagine we'll see GDWGAMES online again before too much
longer.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Last time I spoke to him (just a couple of days ago, actually) he had just
<BR>acquired a new computer for home use and was in the process of getting
<BR>set up on it. I imagine we'll see GDWGAMES online again before too much
<BR>longer.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 18:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr  7 17:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
References: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0E12F.6A9B3511@premier.net>


knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> 
>         Okay, so I'm considering writing up my own shipbuilding rules ("Yeah,
> yeah, kid, you and everybody else - take a number and wait in line."),
> and there were a couple of factors that I haven't seen (or have missed)
> in the various ships rules in different editions of Traveller:
> 
>         Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 'workstations',
> but it seems to me that most ships (at least ones that carry passengers)
> would require some sort of galley for food preperation.  Has anyone seen
> or worked up rules for the minimum size of a ship's galley, based on the
> number of crew and passengers carried?

FF&S2 describes two types of galleys for food preparation: Ordinary and
Full.  An Ordinary galley requires .2 m^3 per person served, with a
minimum size of 4 m^3.  Meager through Good rations can be competently
prepared in an Ordinary galley (1 cook per 40 sophonts).  A Full galley
requires .3 m^3 per person served, with a minimum size of 12 m^3. 
Preparation of Excellent meals requires a Full galley and a cook with
Steward 3+ or Cook 2+ (1 cook per 20 sophonts if preparing Excellent
meals; 1 cook per 40 sophonts otherwise).  Food storage is discussed in
Tables 211 and 212; volume required for a given number of sophont-weeks
of rations depends on food quality and TL.

Larger AuricTech designs tend to have sufficient Full galleys to support
a full complement of crew and passengers, along with an equal capacity
in Ordinary galleys.  When such ships are operating with a standard
complement, the Ordinary galleys are generally used as "snack bars," and
are attached to facilities such as crew lounges or the Combat
Information Center; if a ship is packed to double occupancy, the
Ordinary galleys provide the required "overflow" food preparation
capacity to serve the additional occupants.
> 
>         Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
> amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
> other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
> that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
> rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
> on the number of ship's crew and other factors?

Again, FF&S2 discusses ship's lockers, though in less detail.  Page 15
states that the volume required is "designer's choice," with suggested
values of .5 m^3 per 1,000 m^3 of ship or per crew member.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
civilians.  It has little or no military application,
contrary to popular mythos.
END QUOTE

True. But......

They don't like it up 'em mister mainwaring, they
don't like it up 'em ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:06:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:06:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020407190105.2914E27A15@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c1de9a$066819a0$e35e8690@computer>

> From: Robert Houghton
> What about the ratio of 'civilian' deaths to 'military' deaths? Who gets
> the award for most civilian casulties compared to military casulties,
> not overall numbers?

Hmm.  Well, if you find an example where there were *no* military
casualties, that ratio will give you a division by zero error.  Try the PNG
intervention in Vanuatu in 1980 for an example of this - the *only* casualty
was a civilian.

Of the wars I listed (WWII, Taiping Rebellion, and WWI), the civilian
casualties were huge in the first two, and *relatively* small in the latter.

Another interesting mass-death situation is the Stalinist forced
collectivizations in the early 30s.  This was essentially a civil war,
although militarily it was one sided.  It was a product of pure
incompetence - industry had been neglected, so the cities couldn't afford to
buy food from the peasants - result:  starvation, forcible requisitioning
and massacres.

China has had a few "interesting" times.  The decades before 1949 saw almost
continuous civil wars, foreign invasions, famines, epidemics, and all the
other horrors you can imagine.  After that, there was the famine that
coincided with the "Great Leap Forward", reversing the Leap's direction, and
the civil war called the "Cultural Revolution", when rival factions
organised mobs to attack each other.

The partition of India was a delightful little blood bath, too.  There are
just so many other cases, too.  John's selection of horrors was actually
comparatively mild, if you think about it.

My guess for biggest pile of dead civilians would still be WWII, though.  As
a ratio, it's harder to say, because of the absurd case of no military
casualties.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
And how would you rate the Colonial Marine unit in
"Aliens"?
END QUOTE

One word. F*#&ing officers.
Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
interview on the DVD). 

James (Who owns the DVD of Aliens even though he has
no DVD player. And also wants to join the USMC because
of Aliens even though he is Australian.)


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS War what is it good for, absolutely nothing (apart f
 rom the Industrial Military complex)
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17918@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

> I can't buy into that at all, John.  Sorry.  Wars seem no more
> omnipresent today than they were in classical times.  The only
> relationships I would draw are the motivation for vengeance that
> connects the survivors to a mass slaughter, and Malthusian effects of
> reducing population pressure by reducing population.  Two forces that
> relationships that seem in opposition to each other.  Even if you
> massacre _all_ your enemy, even the children below age six, you will
> put yourself high on the rest of the world's Enemies To Destroy list. 
> There will come the day you are on the losing side in a war, and
> genocide is not a precedent that you'd like to have around.


John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 
I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because 
humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill 
that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate 
thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in 
Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost 
any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something 
separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before. 
 
The three examples above are only those examples I know of with 
the highest death toll, tens of thousands were also been killed in 
Indonesia in the 1960s and in the ruins of Yugoslavia.  

Combat lethality may have gone down, but death tolls in conflicts 
have certainly gone *way* up.

From Me:
Unfortunately it seems that as the leathility of the battlefield increases,
the likelihood of inter-state war (ie between two countries) has decreased.
So conflicts largely around the globe, present US campaign excluded, are
internal disputes. And when it is internal it is when genocide and other
nasty elimination stuff, happens the most. Especially when you have western
industrial powers that are unwilling to become involved in 'Nation Building'
and actually step in and say 'hey man, killing your own people is wrong'.
Fortunately that seems to be happening a bit more now. 

The sad thing is for Afghanistan is that  the best thing that ever happened
to them, I hope in the long run that is, was September 11. Cause there was
no way in hell anyone was going to do anything about it otherwise.

My 0.02 of course. 


Mikey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
In-Reply-To: <200204072341.DOR00933@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407180641.00a07670@mindspring.com>

At 07:41 PM 4/7/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I keep wondering about those passenger prices.  It doesn't
>make any sense.  If I fly from Washington, DC to Newark, NJ,
>it's cheaper than flying from Washington, DC to Los Angeles,
>CA.

Wrong analogy, think steamships in the days before regular air travel.

Passengers could get (relatively) cheap passage between large established 
ports, say Southampton and New York, they were serviced by large, regular 
liners.  Getting from London to Mombassa involved trips on small freighters 
with a few extra staterooms, any number of stops and delays, and being 
charged whatever the market could get away with.  Think the freighter in 
"Raiders of the Lost Ark."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:30:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:30:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <20020407234850.57151.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407181125.009efb90@mindspring.com>

At 09:48 AM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>QUOTE
>If that retinal scanner makes the crew sit through
>three or four rescans before it lets them in, or
>mistakes them for a terrorist a couple times a week,
>expect the retinal scanner to be bypassed before the
>ship comes out of its first jump.
>END QUOTE
>
>Thats what fire axes are for!
>
>HAL:Come on Dave be reasonable! Put the axe down!
>Dave, Dave! NOOOOOOOO...0).^%^$&9&##5.

"Computer, if you don't open that exit hatch this moment I shall zap 
straight off to your major data banks and reprogram you with a very large 
ax, got that?"

<silence>

"Right.  Get the ax."

<door opens>

Zaphod Beeblebrox


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
   - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
In-Reply-To: <OF0BD69FC0.8B0C14DC-ONCA256B94.00752218@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <000601c1de9d$a1a80760$2f7de40c@loki>

david.d.jaques-watson supposes, "4. Banned from 'Net access by the
Illuminati;"

Maybe the Illuminati are just preventing you from receiving GDWGames
copious daily posts filled with detailed information you are not
prepared to read.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407180641.00a07670@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOGCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Douglas Berry says
[Passengers could get (relatively) cheap passage between large established
ports, say Southampton and New York, they were serviced by large, regular
liners.  Getting from London to Mombassa involved trips on small freighters
with a few extra staterooms, any number of stops and delays, and being
charged whatever the market could get away with.  Think the freighter in
"Raiders of the Lost Ark." ] endBlock

Then let's consider a frontier. No established trade routes.
You can either take a Jump-2 ship to a destination 5 parsecs away
through intermediate planets at 8,000 cr per jump (three jumps total,
24,000 cr), or you can take my Jump-5 ship, and I charge you 20,000 cr
for the same middle passage.  It's a one off, and I can get you and
your friends there earlier.

Which makes me wonder where they come up with the idea of those
prices.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
Message-ID: <20020407.215033.-132267.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 19:15:43 -0500 John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
writes:

> FF&S2 describes two types of galleys for food preparation: 

> Again, FF&S2 discusses ship's lockers, though in less detail.  

Thanks for the info.  I do own a copy of FFS2, but tend to go blind after
awhile reading through all those tables.

Again, thanks.


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <20020408022950.69084.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Or Ha-Un batteries (Batteries made from a mixture of
Handwavium and Unobtainium)...
END QUOTE

I believe the equation is Ha+Un = TU ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hull designs, deck plans, yadda yadda
Message-ID: <200204080233.DOX00653@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

A ship is a pressure vessel, right? I'm trying to think of a 
reason that you would waste space on a "hallway".  I'm 
thinking of the deck plan for a needle configuration, and I'm 
thinking that it would be similar to a modern submarine, with 
a long tapered nose.

The deck plan of a submarine came to mind, and I don't 
remember seeing "hallways".  

Are there any deck plans of a modern submarine on the web?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>

At 11:08 AM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:

>One word. F*#&ing officers.
>Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
>officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
>enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
>interview on the DVD).

OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's 
all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window 
as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get 
Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.  In my view, those 
are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:39:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:39:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOGCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407180641.00a07670@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193614.009ffac0@mindspring.com>

At 09:38 PM 4/7/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Then let's consider a frontier. No established trade routes.
>You can either take a Jump-2 ship to a destination 5 parsecs away
>through intermediate planets at 8,000 cr per jump (three jumps total,
>24,000 cr), or you can take my Jump-5 ship, and I charge you 20,000 cr
>for the same middle passage.  It's a one off, and I can get you and
>your friends there earlier.
>
>Which makes me wonder where they come up with the idea of those
>prices.

People with very little experience in travel.

GT: Far Trader does a much better job of modelling the actual flow of 
passenger prices.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001501c1dea7$7bed0480$0b01a8c0@duck>

>      Intersecting meson beams being used as some sort of active sensor
> system.  The beams also need to intersect at a "shallow", or obtuse, angle
> with each other.  The beams in the case of Tanis system were projected
from
> two widely seperated locations the system's planetoid belt.

Actually, one beam was from a GG moon, the other from Darrian itself.

>      This adds some complexity to any deploymeny of the Star Trigger. ...
> Two ships would then be a minimum; one to release the probe and project a
> beam, the other to project the second beam.

The original (non-working Star Trigger) didn't know anything about the
meson interference project.  They thought the stellar probe itself caused
the flares.  Therefore, the original operation of the Star Trigger would
only require a single ship.

For an operational deployment, I would imagine that three ships would be
needed.  The two meson ships, and a much smaller "delivery" ship.  (Which
could possibly have to be sacrificed.)

>      IIRC, the effects aren't seen for many hours and, presumably, the
meson
> beams need to operated for that entire length of time.

This is not stated, and there is at least one hint that they don't.  I got
the impression that once the proper convergence was achieved, it was pretty
much over.  The wait was for the effects to reach you.

>      All of this makes the Star Trigger a rather finicky device.  ...

While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I don't
see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the trick
is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it.

>      This may be part of the reason why the Sword Worlds haven't been on
the
> recieving end of one yet.  The devastation that such a strike would also
> inflict on both Imperial and Confederation systems may also be part of the
> answer.

The reason the Sword Worlds never received a flare was for two reasons:
1) They are too close.  The Darrians would suffer from the EMP results as
   well as the Sword Worlders, unless they went *deep* into SW territory.
2) The Star Trigger did not become operational until after the Fifth FW.
   After the FFW, the Sword Worlds were, quite frankly, not much of a threat
   to the Darrians.

From what I can tell, after the FFW the Darrians had very few external
threats.  The only annoyance (besides the fractured Sword Worlds) seems to
be Garoo!  And no matter how annoying Garoo is, they just can't be worth
the effort and political backlash of using the Star Trigger.

> ...  If, IYTU, this mission fails or the
> reason(s) for it is/are not suspected, the Star Trigger is little more
than
> an extremely effective bogeyman.

While you can do whatever you want IYTU, in the OTU the Star Trigger does
work.

>      One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star
> Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was
> faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.

This is a great point.  It never really dawned on me, but you are
absolutely correct!  I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an
incredible accomplishment in its own right.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 21:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun Apr  7 20:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407231301.0210b390@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:49 PM 4/7/2002, knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>Okay, so I'm considering writing up my own shipbuilding rules

Cool!

>Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 'workstations' [...]
>Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
>amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
>other sundries.

Yes to both; "traditional" Traveller starship construction rules assumed 
that these, as well as other habitability needs (freshers, corridors, 
lifts, common areas, recreational facilities, etc.) are included in the 
canonical 4 dtons per person stateroom requirement.

When drawing deckplans, I generally allocate between 2 and 3 dtons for the 
actual stateroom, and use the remaining 1-2 dtons/stateroom for galley, 
storage, etc.  Remember that prior to FF&S, the Traveller starship 
construction rules were fairly loose, and fudging items like this was 
generally negligible in the long run.

I believe FF&S2 has rules for both provisions and preparation facilities.

Back in the CT days, I used to have a house rule that for extended duration 
missions (longer than 30 days), ships had to allocate 1% of the ship's 
total volume per month of provisions.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 21:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 20:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEOICGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_AAW+O329uHELj9/oA8bCnw)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Just looking at an interactive cruise ship deck plan.
http://dvo.free.fr/home.html

The standard prefab ship's cabin is 2.9 x 5 m or
2.9 x 5.5m.  This comes with two twin beds, shower,
hair dryer, tv/vcr, refrigerator w/soft drinks/minibar,
personal safe, telephone. closet, small desk, small
table, clothes drawers. The difference in the room
space is taken up by a different size desk.

Assuming a 3 meter ceiling, this is a little over 3 dTons.

Not bad, considering the amount of space.  This leaves
0.9 dTons of space for other purposes. But looking at 
the "hallways", I'm sure this excess is all used up before
you ever get to the dining rooms, etc.

If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area
of comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen,
restaurant kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.

_________________________________
There cannot be a crisis next week.  My schedule is already full.


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 21:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun Apr  7 20:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <001501c1dea7$7bed0480$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407233535.0201a0f0@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:45 PM 4/7/2002, Mike West wrote:
>[Somebody else said:]
>>One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star 
>>Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was 
>>faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.
>
>It never really dawned on me, but you are absolutely correct

Actually, it was hinted at: the Darrians are supposed to be Known Space's 
experts on stellar phenomena.  They faked the demonstration by being able 
to predict (far enough in advance) an appropriate naturally-occurring 
stellar phenomena, and then deploying ships to the site in time for the 
Star Trigger to be able to take credit for causing it.  IMHO, this is the 
rough equivalent of claiming to have an Earthquake Projector, and "proving" 
this claim by predicting a significant and unexpected earthquake well in 
advance.

I'm sure the use of Darrian military security around the site of the 
demonstration didn't hurt, either.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEOICGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20020408040109.7500F27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/07/02 at 11:35 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@comcast.net> said:

>If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
>meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area of
>comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen, restaurant
>kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.

Why 3 meters for deck to overhead?  It may be standard, but a lot of
that overhead is going to be wasted space. Two and a half meters is a
little over 8 feet, and that should be plenty. This gives you 5 - 1.5
meter squares per dton.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408000718.0284f8d0@pop.wizard.net>

James Ramsay:
>James (Who owns the DVD of Aliens even though he has
>no DVD player. And also wants to join the USMC because
>of Aliens even though he is Australian.)

We'll gladly take you, son.  You don't have to be a U.S. citizen to be a 
U.S. Marine.  I shared a barracks room for a year with a Lebanese Christian 
who was still a Lebanese citizen.  Contact the closest American consulate 
if you're serious.  Be sure to be able to do lots of pull ups from a dead 
hang and run three miles in under say 24 minutes.

And when you get off the plane to go to the Marine Corps Recruit Depot, 
just remember these two words:  "yellow footprints".  <WEG>

Much more serious advice.  Possibly the most important advice you will ever 
get in your life.  Find an MOS that gives you the training and expertise 
you want to use in your civilian career after you get it, and get that 
guaranteed in writing and signed by an officer.  Do not accept any talk no 
matter how reasonable or persuasive as a substitute.  Get the MOS you want, 
guaranteed.  In writing.  In writing.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
References: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>

Doug Berry regarding the film 'Aliens':
>OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's 
>all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window 
>as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.
>
>Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get 
>Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.  In my view, 
>those are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.

He was a brave fool, but a fool nonetheless.  But that's to be expected as 
the training, organization, and doctrine of the entire organization seemed 
to have been designed by the same.

Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units in 
Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no provision 
whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up against the 
Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win because of their 
balanced organization and integral combat and logistical support, despite 
their major technological disadvantage.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

laning says

[Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units in
Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no provision
whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up against the
Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win because of their
balanced organization and integral combat and logistical support, despite
their major technological disadvantage.] endBlock

Well then, I guess it's up to us to remedy that.

I had always wanted to do an entire orbital assault ship complete with its
marine complement (down to the last little bit).  Would need additional
ships capable of landing supplies, setting up landing fields, etc.  There's
a lot more to a successful landing than ships that can pound the planet into
rubble and a single shipload of marines.

Ever wonder why the naval units don't have pickets, reconnaissance,
minesweepers, etc?  No hospital ship, either.  I guess the Marines would
have nowhere to evac to if they're wounded.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB0F014.30539.36165A5@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020408044045.02AAD279F0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/08/02 at 01:19 AM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
said:

>On 7 Apr 2002 at 9:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

>> ObTrav:  To be controllable in full auto, I would think we would want
>> the free recoil down in the M-16 range (which is dubious, if you've ever
>> tried to hit something at 100 yards on full auto with the M-16).  I've
>> also noticed that as soon as recoil levels go over, say, a light rifle
>> in .243, people begin to notice, and when they notice, they either
>> flinch, or are apprehensive about firing, especially the first round.

>They do? Even my sisters didn't consider the SMLE to be excessive
>once  they were adults. It was a bit heavy when we were 10 or 12,
>though.  I've always thought that recoil isn't significant until
>you're dealing  with light, light .270 Winchesters, light .30-06's
>and up.

I had a problem with a 12 gauge when I was a kid. <g> I didn't even
notice there was recoil with a .22 rifle.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
Message-ID: <20020407.214938.-3991.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 23:01:11 -0500 "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
writes:
> On 04/07/02 at 11:35 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@comcast.net> said:
> 
> >If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
> >meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area of
> >comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen, 
> restaurant kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.
> 
> Why 3 meters for deck to overhead?  It may be standard, but a lot of
> that overhead is going to be wasted space. Two and a half meters is 
> alittle over 8 feet, and that should be plenty. This gives you 5 -  1.5
> meter squares per dton.
> 
> Eris

I assumed the 3 meters was deck to deck, allowing the extra space for
conduits, ducts, overhead lighting,, pipes, electrical stuff, grav plates
etc.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
Message-ID: <OF1B531251.5105373F-ONCA256B95.001A7F77@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Charles replied to Laning thus:
>>We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including 
>>ironing.  Every service a hotel provides, basically.
>
>Even hookers?

Certainly! Just the things you need to grab on to when you perform an EVA 
and the ship decides to lurch suddenly.

...or did I misunderstand your point?

;-)  ;-)  ;-)

(It really _must_ be Monday.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
In-Reply-To: <20020407.214938.-3991.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020408051123.47CD3279C0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/07/02 at 09:49 PM,  generalturokan@juno.com said:

>On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 23:01:11 -0500 "Eris Reddoch"
><erisred@telocity.com> writes:
>> On 04/07/02 at 11:35 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@comcast.net> said:
>> 
>> >If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
>> >meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area of
>> >comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen, 
>> restaurant kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.
>> 
>> Why 3 meters for deck to overhead?  It may be standard, but a lot of
>> that overhead is going to be wasted space. Two and a half meters is 
>> alittle over 8 feet, and that should be plenty. This gives you 5 -  1.5
>> meter squares per dton.
>> 
>> Eris

>I assumed the 3 meters was deck to deck, allowing the extra space for
>conduits, ducts, overhead lighting,, pipes, electrical stuff, grav
>plates etc.

I do to, but I allocate 6" to 8" for all that. I'm looking for extra
floor space to playing in. <g>  IAC, there's nothing stopping you from
tinkering with different shapes and sizes.

In one design I put lots of little sleeping chambers (ala the coffins
in some Japanese hotels) just high enough sit crosslegged on the bed
and not hit your head and just long enough to stretch out. Stack them
two or three high with a single shared fresher for a half dozen. The
passengers of these things use them for sleeping (storage under the
mat they sleep on), and the common lounge for everything else.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
Message-ID: <OF463ECBF4.84389A2C-ONCA256B95.001C6AA3@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

"n2sami" replied:
>david.d.jaques-watson supposes, "4. Banned from 'Net access by the
>Illuminati;"
>
>Maybe the I________i are just preventing you from receiving G_______
>copious _____ posts filled with ________ ___________ you are not
>prepared to ____.
>
>
>---_w_a_r__---

Well that's strange, I only appear to have received half your message...

;-)  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <OF7C3A3904.BA8B0762-ONCA256B95.001D1920@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Mike West wrote:
>>      One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star
>> Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was
>> faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.
>
>This is a great point.  It never really dawned on me, but you are
>absolutely correct!  I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an
>incredible accomplishment in its own right.

OK, I'll give a real reply to a post, now.

From memory, the Darrians know a *lot* about stars and their life cycles. 
They've studied them extensively, both just prior to, and certainly after, 
the Maghiz.

They found a star that was just about to flare, set up a fake demo, then 
claimed success once the star flared (making sure the Zhos had a ringside 
seat).

My bet is that it occurred somewhere in Foreven.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408033711.7417D27A19@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020407222519.00a4ddf0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 19:35:36 -0700, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> 
wrote:

> >One word. F*#&ing officers.
> >Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
> >officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
> >enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
> >interview on the DVD).
>
>OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's
>all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window
>and was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

That, and the first encounter was in about the worst possible 
location.  The Marines were in a confined space, surrounded by the enemy, 
most of them unarmed because of the risk of damage to the facility, and the 
second guy to buy it had all the ammo for the squad.  I don't care how good 
your CO is, you're going to take HEAVY casualties getting out of a 
clusterfuck like that.

There's also speculation/evidence in the supporting material that 
Weyland-Yutani deliberately picked a unit with a green officer (easier for 
the Company man on the spot to influence), perhaps even arranging for the 
previous Lt. to have an accident before the mission.  If you're gonna blame 
anyone, blame the suits.  :/


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>> Say what??? What's Oosik??
>
>A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
>bone from a walrus penis.  See
>http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html

For another poem about this wondrous item of nature, see BioGraffiti: A
Natural Selection by John M. Burns.  Oh, what the hell, it's short:

The Baculum

An inarticulate lucky stiff between
Paired spongy corpora casanova,
The baculum (or penis bone) of mammals
Lends firm support to a hard job.

Present in all insectivores,
Bats, rodents, carnivores,
And most primates (but not man),
It comes in many shapes.

That of the walrus (winner of a grand prix)
Is very like a warped baseball bat
Some two feet long. As one old walrus put it,
"Speak softly and carry a big stick".

Found at:

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Facility/4118/misc/biograffiti.htm
l

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:13:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:13:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407233535.0201a0f0@mail.qrc.com>
References: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020407233535.0201a0f0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <19221143037.20020408151732@greimann.de>

> Star Trigger to be able to take credit for causing it.  IMHO, this is the 
> rough equivalent of claiming to have an Earthquake Projector, and "proving" 
> this claim by predicting a significant and unexpected earthquake well in 
> advance.

Now this is an interesting concept for a future James Bond Film:

The  enemy only pretending to have a doomsday weapon, and JB searching
the  earth in vain, always thinking he is too late only to find out in
the end that he has been tricked...



-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon:

>Ever wonder why the naval units don't have pickets, reconnaissance,
>minesweepers, etc?  No hospital ship, either.  I guess the Marines would
>have nowhere to evac to if they're wounded.

I figure all the naval support units like pickets and minesweepers (mines 
in space??) are provided by the fleet that the Marine transports are 
attached to.

Field hospitals and supplies will be Marine units that are landed 
separately, without all that jump capsule stuff.  Higher echelon support 
will partly be shipboard, I suppose.  Hospital ships probably exist, for 
instance.

But where are all the mortar sections, comm sections, armorers, ammo 
transport units, company- and battalion-level support weapons like HMGs and 
air defense and antiarmor weapons that you never see the TO&Es?  And the 
S-1, S-2, S-3, and S-4 staff billets?

I could devise a few such TO&Es by simply copying some units from WW2 to 
present times and changing a detail here or there.  Seems boring, but if 
people here request it I'll try to post a few.  Prepare to see my really 
big squads with lots of automatic weapons.  :->

I have no idea what the GT material is on this, and have no intention to 
write up anything compatible with it.  The system is too incompatible with 
prior versions for me to invest that much money in them.  Although I do 
keep meaning to shop for a few of the books, if they work as source books 
for CT/MT.  'First In" seems to be very popular, for instance.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Sci Fi Books that are Ob Trav
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1791D@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

I know I am a tad late in this thread but it occurred to be the other day
that a very Ob Trav type series of books were the Amtrak Wars by Patrick
Tilley. Hi Tech underground civilisation fighting mad max esq mutated
barbarians. The descriptions of the underground settlements seem very trav,
monorails, life support levels, you name it. 

I'm re-reading them now. I liked them as a teenager and, ten years later,
they're still pretty good. 

In fact it would make a great GURPS sourcebook. Doug Berry come on down. 
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Railguns
In-Reply-To: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <3CB1AEF9.30344.7D45D12@localhost>

Hi all!

Earlier discussion about railguns (vs. coilguns) got me curious, so I 
went and found this site:

<http://www.railgun.org/>

Check it out!  They've got a lot of cool stuff -- all the formulas for the 
more gearheaded, pics of the assembly process, how they chose 
what projectile to use, etc. etc.  

-- Rachel 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was
inexperienced, that's all.  All he knew was the book,
and suddenly the book went out the window 
as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and
went back to get Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to
slow the enemy down.  In my view, those are the kind
of things that posthumous decorations are given out
for.
END QUOTE

I agree that he did the right thing at the end but he
was incredibly incompetent in the first encounter with
the aliens. I suspect he was chosen for the mission
because of his inexperiance, and or compliance to the
company. After all the actual grunts where a seasoned
combat hardened bunch of veterens, who I think where
probably the equivalent to the marine force recon. Why
would someone who has only ever had one actual mission
be put in charge of such a group? And he froze in a
combat situation endangering the lives of his men! And
the aliens wheren't that tough, notice how the people
who had guns survived (Drake was killed by friendly
fire). All the people with wimpy 'flame units' died.
It was a sever tactical error to send troops into an
area with no effective means of fighting. And James
Cameron was inspired by his brothers time in vietnam.
However I still like Gorman for his actions at the end
of the film.

ObTrav: Do the average grunts still bitch about thier
officers? Has officer - enlisted sophont relationship
improved or got worse?

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408040658.0326ba80@pop.wizard.net>

James Ramsay regarding Colonial Marines in the film 'Aliens':
>company. After all the actual grunts where a seasoned
>combat hardened bunch of veterens, who I think where
>probably the equivalent to the marine force recon.

No, not even close to Force Recon.  Maybe more like draftee Marines early 
in WW2 minus the commitment to a cause, and with no experience.  If I'm in 
a generous mood.  I'll take an equal number of former Force Recon who 
haven't worn a uniform in twenty years or more against that useless bunch 
of physically fit young men and women any time.

Perhaps they were supposed to be combat veterans, but most of them only 
acted like the Hollywood director's idea of that.  And their organization 
and doctrine didn't reflect any type of combat experience.  In short, they 
struck me as a bunch of high school football jocks who think they're, um 
kings of the world based on zero available evidence, and therefore 
qualified to fight a war.

After the first 'Alien' movie, abandon all notions of realism.

My ObTrav is to be very careful running military units in Traveller 
campaigns, it isn't easy being believable if you have players with more 
direct military knowledge than the referee.  Not that those players will 
want complete realism either.  They'll want fun and adventure.  But they 
still need to keep their belief suspenders from snapping.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 02:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon Apr  8 01:22:02 2002
Subject: TOE was RE: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEOKEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I did a TOE for a TL13 Terran Marine Unit in MT. Most of the vehicles are on
my site though I have never posted the TOE itself. I gave it recon, kitchen,
medivac, mobile hospital etc. My proudest achievement was designing (in MT)
a mobile Grav Field Kitchen. I still have the organisation lying around
somewhere.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 03:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr  8 02:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408040658.0326ba80@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <004b01c1dedd$23466840$2f9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Perhaps they were supposed to be combat veterans, but most of them only
> acted like the Hollywood director's idea of that.  And their organization
> and doctrine didn't reflect any type of combat experience.  In short, they
> struck me as a bunch of high school football jocks who think they're, um
> kings of the world based on zero available evidence, and therefore
> qualified to fight a war.
>

They were, I think, supposed to be experienced, but only at "correcting"
colonists who were behaving in naughty ways. (mainly by showing up and
acting like badasses). Dozens of soft missions made them complacent and
overconfident.

But yeah, the unit suffered from Hollywooditis. Who issues a support weapon
you have to use standing up?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 03:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr  8 02:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005c01c1dedd$c64fecf0$2f9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> ObTrav: Do the average grunts still bitch about thier
> officers? Has officer - enlisted sophont relationship
> improved or got worse?
>
>
My father told me last night (from his time in the Air Force).. he and a
bunch of other enlisteds were hurrying somewhere in a corridor. They spied
an officer at the last second, and two of them saluted. The officer shouted
at them. So on the way back they ALL saluted, to keep the mean officer
happy. So he shouted at them some more "FOR SALUTING IN A CORRIDOR!!!!!"

They went away cursing both officers and corridors, not very much the wiser.

Another time he spied someone in an unfamiliar dress uniform. Could have
been Russian for all he knew, but he saluted to be on the safe side. The
Canadian corporal smiled wryly and went on his way....


From shadow@krypton.scn.rain.com  Mon Apr  8 03:07:42 2002
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To: tml@travellercentral.com
X-Original-Article-From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] helium-3
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Message-ID: <20407.232902.6E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
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Date: Mon Apr  8 08:08:13 2002
X-Original-Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 23:29:02 PST

In mail you write:

> I keep looking at the p-H3 reaction, and although it has a 
> high hurdle for starting, it yields more energy per unit 
> fuel, and is aneutronic.
>
> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.
>
> It looks like you could build a much smaller H3 fusion 
> reactor, not just from the standpoint of overall yield per 
> unit fuel, but also because no energy would be wasted 
> accelerating neutrons (70% of the D-T cycle is neutron 
> energy), and there would be no need to have neutron 
> shielding.  I can almost see the argument that the only way 
> to get a "tabletop" fusion reactor would be to run it on H3.

Whoa!

H3 is *tritium*. He3 is Helium-3.

*Big* difference.

> Looking for a handwave for H3 reactors...

It's gonna be *expensive*. Because the fuel is rare and a *lot* harder
to store than liquid hydrogen.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:09:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:09:34 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <20020403012608.08423dc6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20407.233050.7S9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
>> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
>> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.
>
> Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
> surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).

Yeah, it merely requires processing *tonnes* of regolith for *grams* of
He3.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:10:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:10:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Sleeping In Starports, without Jimmy Hoffa
In-Reply-To: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20408.001328.7c5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the 
> price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial 
> cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very 
> much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be 
> possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for 
> mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the 
> fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator 
> runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to 
> ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of 
> the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.  The 
> same device could also be used in recycling to return 
> anything to its component atoms.

Yep.

> So, is that how the recycler works on the ship?  Is there 
> some plasma separator in there, and it's all reduced to 
> whatever the ship's environmental controls are interested 
> in?  Dump the other ions into space?

No, that's a bit *too* thorough. It takes a lot of effort to build
complex organics. You wouldn't run them thru that sort of system.
*Inorganic* waste, maybe.

Unless you've got nanotech, or similar "magic" level tech, you want to
leave organic molecules intact unless you've got a *good* reason to
break them down that far.

Life-support level air and water recycling is done easily without going
*that* far.

> Nice place for the Jimmy Hoffas of the future...

The excess carbon in the logs will require a *lot* of explanation.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20408.003625.1N7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The esteemed Leonard Erickson wrote, including quotes from Texas Redshift:
>> > For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't 
> get
>> > in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
>> > send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
>> > do the ship much good, however.
>>
>>Also, it can't be *too* hard. there will be lots of situations when the
>>crew wants to get inside *fast*, or they may be a bit "damaged" or
>>"incapacitated". Or both.
>>
>>Entry should be merely difficult enough to dissaude *amatuers*. Pros
>>will get in anyway, so the extra efforts isn't really justifiable in
>>terms of cost/benefit.
> I agree but only a little bit.  The penalty when you do lose a ship (and 
> probably some lives at the same time) is very large.  Typically hundreds of 
> millions.  Yes, it is a touchstone of security that no security system is 
> perfect, and you shouldn't spend excess effort on attempting to perfect 
> your security beyond a point that is appropriate to your degree of risk and 
> the cost if security fails.  Even one fat trader or passenger liner lost is 
> going to drive everyone's insurance rates through the roof and may risk 
> putting the insurer financially on the ropes.

Not necessarily.

One out of how many? That's the key there.

> If nobody else does, then 
> insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security 
> measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time 
> and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.

You are considering *installation* costs. I'm talking about the costs
in time wasted due to "overly stringent" security getting in the way.

Oil tankers are expensive too. So are modern freighters. And *safety*
gear on them that "gets in the way" is routinely bypassed by crews,
never mind "security" gear.

> Oh, I'm not sure that the phrase "kill switches" was supposed to mean 
> mantrap defenses.  I think it may have meant disabling critical ship's 
> systems.  Perhaps a triphammer smashes the zuchai crystals.  <G>

I didn't think it did. I know what a kill switch is. I brought up
lethal defenses because they have been discussed in the past, and would
have popped up any minute anyway.

And yes, the TU isn't the US. Some places are less forgiving, some are
more. Which laws apply to a ship in port could get very important.

>>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
>>someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
>>attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...

> I see we've met some of the same player characters.  :->

Alas, I understand that there have actually been a couple of real world
cases of this already. And it's been a standard dodge in fiction for
*at least* 50 years.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:13:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:13:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204030529.g335TAO02739@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard writes:

> But, as you say in a later post, the energy of forces might seem
> stronger under inertial suppression. Well, is that really the
> case? A change in gravity should produce no difference, as
> masses fall at the same speed, all other things being equal.
> If I drop a feather in a vacuum, and a drop a rock in a
> vacuum, they should both fall at the same speed. So I don't
> think that changing inertia should effect how an object behaves
> with respect to the gravitational force. What about the weak,
> strong, and EM forces?

Actually, consider that rock and feather in a vacuum *and* with zero
inertia. Let go and they undergo "infinite" acceleration as gravity
takes effect, and zero time later infinite *deceleration* as they hit
the bottom of the tube.

>> Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
>> things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects. 
>
> In what way?

Chemical reaction rates depend strongly on the mass of the atoms. Atoms
with similar properties (same column in the periodic table) react at
rates that are strongly connected with their mass differences. 

So the rates might increase dramaticly.

Molecular collisions in air would result in the molecules stopping,
rather than rebounding. So the opposing portions of their vectors would
cancel out. Add in the effects of gravity, and all the air molecules
would be in a thin layer near the floor. 

Thermal effects on the gases get weird too.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

>> But assuming that you can live thru the process, then it'd be best to
>> ignore all the effects at the sub-molar level (ie molecular and lower).
>
> Can't do this.

Then you're dead. Too many of the forces at those levels *do* depend on
inertia. Lowering inertia raises the *effective* force.

As an example, the reason that water doesn't boil at around -150 F is
because of Van der waals forces. Compare the boiling points of hydrogen
oxide, hydrogen sulfide, and so on down that column in the periodic
table. All of them *but* H2O have very low boiling points. 

Lowering the inertia of the molecules will have the effect of adding
similar forces. Which will change the physical and chemical properties
of compounds *drastically*. 
  
>> This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
>> work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
>> viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.
>
> Except that your heart would also be of a lower apparent mass.

What's *that* got to do with it? The pumping forces are due to
contraction of the muscle fibers. The mass of the heart has little
relevance there. The only effect it'd have (to the first order, anyway)
is making it *easier* to contract. 

> Instead of thinking of a normal pool ball hitting a styrofoam ball,
> think of one styrofoam ball hitting another one. On the molecular
> scale, I'm guessing that this would be more akin to what would be
> happening. -Jim

Nope. Because you lose the rebound. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:15:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:15:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215009.0283aec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20408.010158.0K9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson, in replying to JimV said:
>
>>BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
>>higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
>>artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
>>playing "grav pong" with hijackers.
> Sounds like we see it the same way.  Although +6 gees to -6 gees in less 
> than one second should be sufficient grav pong to deal with most hijackers.
>
> I've always wondered at the canonical lack of ships capable of 
> accelerations far greater than 6 gees.  We subject astronauts and fighter 
> pilots to accelerations between 4 and 6 gees, so you'd think that high 
> performance military aircraft would be capable of accelerating many gees 
> faster than their internal grav compensation can handle.  They accelerate 
> at 10 gees, have 6 gees of that compensated, and a "felt acceleration" of 4 
> gees.

Actually, fighter pilots are limited by the fact that they *have* to
experience gees in a "head to feet" direction. If you can take the
acceleration "flat on your back", the limt is between 15 and 18 gees.
That's the point at which you can't excercise fine muscle control.

3 gees can be handled "indefinitely" (hours, at least). 

This is only practical for "fighter" type ships. And the power & fuel
consumption is going to be high. But due to the fact that turns have to
be made by changing the direction the "mainn drive" points, they'll
*always* be taking all but a tiny fraction of the accel in the same
direction.

It only takes a fraction of a g to flip a ship end for end in space.
It's changing the direction it is *traveling* that takes the main
drive. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:16:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <F149PnvEZZ91Lhdms4Q000022be@hotmail.com>

From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>

     "Actually, one beam was from a GG moon, the other from Darrian itself."


Mr. West,

     You are correct, sir.  My apologies for "bum doping" the List.

     "The original (non-working Star Trigger) didn't know anything about the 
meson interference project.  They thought the stellar probe itself caused 
the flares.  Therefore, the original operation of the Star Trigger would 
only require a single ship."

     Yes, a single ship that would deliver a non-working device.

     "This is not stated, and there is at least one hint that they don't.  I 
got the impression that once the proper convergence was achieved, it was 
pretty much over.  The wait was for the effects to reach you."

     Perhaps the beams needn't be held on location for hours, but other 
portions of the weapon do require time.  How much time does it take for the 
probe to release enough tungsten into the star for the Trigger to work?  How 
far off must the projector vessels be in order to escape?Assuming a 
seperation between Darrian and Tanis of 1 AU, it would take a meson beam ~8 
minutes to cover that distance.  Put the second projector on a GG moon at a 
Jupiter distance and the time jumps to ~45 minutes.  Now throw in comm times 
between vessels and aiming attempts, you'll need both to ensure you get the 
proper angle of interference.
     Even parking both projector vessels at the star's 100D limit, so they 
can escape, means that beam travel distance, comm lag, and subsequent aiming 
attempts are all going to take time.  Maybe not hours, but certainly not 
minutes.

     "While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I 
don't see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the 
trick is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it."

     Yes, seeding the star with enough tungsten and aiming correctly will 
take time.  Perhaps the Darrians use multiple probes to increase their 
chances?

     "The reason the Sword Worlds never received a flare was for two 
reasons: 1) They are too close..."

     Yes, the "collateral" damage to both Darrian and Imperial space I 
mentioned.

     "2) The Star Trigger did not become operational until after the Fifth 
FW.  After the FFW, the Sword Worlds were, quite frankly, not much of a 
threat to the Darrians."

     You missed the point of the fake Star Trigger and the real story behind 
the faked demostration.  Everyone, INCLUDING THE DARRIANS, thought it 
worked!  It had to be this way so that Zho mind readers would verify it's 
both existence and operability.  So, for deterrent purposes, the Star 
Trigger, whether working or not, was deployed, IIRC, immediately after the 
2nd FW.  Plenty of time for a Confederacy tussling with the Sword Worlds 
over the Entropic Cluster to think about using it.  Remember, they thought 
it worked!
     The "real" reason the Star Trigger wasn't used during all those 
centuries is that weapons of mass destruction aren't, except in very rare 
cases, used to ensure you'll WIN a war.  They're used to ensure that the 
other fellow LOSES the war.  This is a important distinction.  The Star 
Trigger and MAD, on which it is based, is a suicide pact; "You push us too 
far and we'll make sure we all die, you included."
     The Trigger can be used defensively rather easily, by employing it you 
ensure that the power about to conquer you is left with nothing worth 
conquering.  Using the Trigger offensively, like nukes, is far tougher.  
Sure we can all spin out scenario after scenario in which nukes win the day, 
but they would all depend on very specific, out of the ordinary, 
prerequisites.

     "While you can do whatever you want IYTU, in the OTU the Star Trigger 
does work."

     Yes, as you pointed out it works after the 5th FW.  However, it was 
deployed for far longer than that.

     "I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an incredible 
accomplishment in its own right."

     Keeping the secret that the Trigger demonstration was a fake was the 
really incrediable accomplishment.  The fakers had to fool both the 
observers from the other powers AND their own people utterly and completely. 
  Why didn't the secret never leak out?  Mass suicide among the project 
staff over "creating" so horrible a weapon?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:17:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:17:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 0:22, laning wrote:

> Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units
> in Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no
> provision whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up
> against the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win
> because of their balanced organization and integral combat and
> logistical support, despite their major technological disadvantage.

I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were 
based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped 
their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its 
subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its 
companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it 
belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles, 
field ovens, etc.

I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of 
the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be 
used to supply and support its troops.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:18:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:18:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <20020408044045.02AAD279F0@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB0F014.30539.36165A5@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB236E1.7282.680449@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 23:40, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I had a problem with a 12 gauge when I was a kid. <g> I didn't even
> notice there was recoil with a .22 rifle.

I thought 12 gauges were fine - they push rather than kick and come 
with nice rubber butt pads. Not like No.1 Lee-Enfields with their solid 
brass butt plate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:19:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:19:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408075125.009ec5e0@mindspring.com>

At 04:58 PM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>ObTrav: Do the average grunts still bitch about thier
>officers? Has officer - enlisted sophont relationship
>improved or got worse?

Soldiers still bitch about everything.  It is their one right.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:20:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:20:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>

At 02:28 AM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>John Kwon:
>
>>Ever wonder why the naval units don't have pickets, reconnaissance,
>>minesweepers, etc?  No hospital ship, either.  I guess the Marines would
>>have nowhere to evac to if they're wounded.
>
>I figure all the naval support units like pickets and minesweepers (mines 
>in space??) are provided by the fleet that the Marine transports are 
>attached to.
>
>Field hospitals and supplies will be Marine units that are landed 
>separately, without all that jump capsule stuff.  Higher echelon support 
>will partly be shipboard, I suppose.  Hospital ships probably exist, for 
>instance.
>
>But where are all the mortar sections, comm sections, armorers, ammo 
>transport units, company- and battalion-level support weapons like HMGs 
>and air defense and antiarmor weapons that you never see the TO&Es?  And 
>the S-1, S-2, S-3, and S-4 staff billets?
>
>I could devise a few such TO&Es by simply copying some units from WW2 to 
>present times and changing a detail here or there.  Seems boring, but if 
>people here request it I'll try to post a few.  Prepare to see my really 
>big squads with lots of automatic weapons.  :->
>
>I have no idea what the GT material is on this, and have no intention to 
>write up anything compatible with it.  The system is too incompatible with 
>prior versions for me to invest that much money in them.  Although I do 
>keep meaning to shop for a few of the books, if they work as source books 
>for CT/MT.  'First In" seems to be very popular, for instance.

GT Ground Forces has complete brigade and regiment TO&Es for the Unified 
Armies of the Imperium and the Imperial Marine Force.  I spent most of my 
time developing the support units, and much of the Operations chapter is 
dedicated to issues of supply and support.

The Standard Issue chapter has the 30,000dton Keith-class brigade 
transport, along with its six Nakerth-class landers.. 1,200 tons each, 
carrying a full combat battalion to a world's surface. There is also the 
Caen-class dropship, the standard 1,200 transport for the Imperial Marines.

Among the vehicles included are a recovery sled, a heavy G-Carrier, and an 
engineering sled.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Sleeping In Starports, without Jimmy Hoffa
Message-ID: <200204081516.DPW00037@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>
>The excess carbon in the logs will require a *lot* of 
>explanation.
>

I used to play in a T campaign where a silicon-based alien 
species referred to us as "carbon-units".  The referee also
used to joke that the aliens knew they hit a ship with
people in it, because they used spectography to look for 
the carbon line when your ship was vaporized.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <20407.233050.7S9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204081031040.23520-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
> > surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).
> 
> Yeah, it merely requires processing *tonnes* of regolith for *grams* of
> He3.

Transhuman Space also says that ratio is good enough.
And it says you can get He3 more easily from gas giants.  In that future
history, the US put a colony in Saturn's orbit solely for that purpose.
Since most Traveller starships are capable of scooping gas giants anyway,
why not go by that route?

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam Draper)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20020408033711.7417D27A19@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGMEANCFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>

I was reading an article recently by a US Army surgeon who served in Vietnam
(Martin Fackler).  He found that the 7.62x39 would penetrate 29 inches of
ballistic gelatin, the 5.56x45 (M193) penetrates 13+ inches, and the 7.62x51
penetrates 25 inches (all FMJ).  Although the 7.62x39 had the deepest
penetration, it produced the least devestating wound.  The bullet
penetrated, turned around, and then exited.  He says, from his experience in
Vietnam, the "average uncomplicated thigh wound was about what one would
expect from a low-powered handgun: a small, punctate entrance and exit wound
with minimal intervening muscle disruption."  The US 7.62x51 produced an
uncomplicated wound profile like the 7.26x39.  The 5.56 produced a pretty
devestating wound, because the bullet would, as it yawed, split in half,
with the base fragmenting into a number of smaller projectiles.  This
reduced penetration, but made a big hole (up to 5" in diameter).  Velocity
had to be at least 2700 fps for the bullet to fragment (muzzle velocity with
a M16 is like 3200+), and no fragmentation took place until the bullet had
penetrated 4-5" of tissue.

Interestingly, German 7.62x51 bullets have a thinner jacket, and that round
would fragment like the 5.56.

I have read before that 5.56 soft points have pathetic penetration in
tissue, but 308 caliber soft points certainly get good penetration and
produce enormous wounds.  Bullet construction seems to be critical in
producing wounds; that seems to be largely ignored in Traveller other than
HE and DS rounds.

I wonder, does the Imperium follow the Geneva convention regarding FMJ
rounds?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 10:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 09:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS War what is it good for, absolutely nothing (apart f rom the Industrial Military complex)
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17918@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>; from Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:11:41AM +1000
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17918@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020408100937.B1314@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:11:41AM +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
>
> Especially when you have western industrial powers that are
> unwilling to become involved in 'Nation Building' and actually step
> in and say 'hey man, killing your own people is wrong'.

The last time nations took a wholesale interest in one another's
affairs, Europe was nearly destroyed in the wars of religion.  The
state system evolved in order to prevent that kind of mass death and
destruction.  The problem now is that states are so large: if the
Grand Duchy of Potlork--consisting of the Grand Duke, his staff,
10,000 citizens and a herd of cattle--goes on a genocidal rampage, its
fairly easy to escape to neighbouring Ruritania.  If the EU does, it's
somewhat more complicated, should one live in, e.g., Arras.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their
pockets for new vocabulary.                     --James D. Nicoll

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 10:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Mon Apr  8 09:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] E-mail still down -- Help Needed
Message-ID: <l03010d0bb8d770ec2013@[206.224.92.67]>

First, my GDWGames@aol.com account is still in the doldrums -- I have a new
computer (well, new to me -- it is an order of magnitude advance over my
old one, but still a used machine) through the courtesy of Geoff MacDonald,
who gave me a very good deal. I'm still struggling with modem issues,
however, so rejuvenatation of the old address will take a while.

A second point:

Will anyone who owns one of the following old GDW Boardgames please get in
touch with me.

	1941
	1942!
	Battle of Agincourt 1415 AD
	Battle of Lobositz
	Battle of Prague
	Battle of Raphia 217 BC

I'll explain in e-mail.



Loren Wiseman
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/
     SJ Games
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 10:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 09:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204081031040.23520-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018283921.6838.ajackson@ping>

Gregory Carl Kettler writes:
> On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > > Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
> > > surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).
> > 
> > Yeah, it merely requires processing *tonnes* of regolith for *grams* of
> > He3.
> 
> Transhuman Space also says that ratio is good enough.

Mostly because TS uses realistic fuel requirements for fusion.  3He is still
200 million dollars per ton in TS.  Of course, TS doesn't have contragravity
and thruster plates, which means getting stuff out of saturn is a challenge.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 11:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 10:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe@aol.com>

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In a message dated 08/04/02 03:39:21 GMT Daylight Time, 
gridlore@mindspring.com writes:


> >One word. F*#&ing officers.
> >Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
> >officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
> >enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
> >interview on the DVD).
> 
> OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's 
> all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window 
> as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.
> 
> Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get 
> Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.  In my view, those 
> 
> are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.
> 

What about the Sergeant (Apone?) - I thought the role of an NCO was to stop 
the officers messing everything up? Clearly he has more experience than 
Gorman and yet he's quite happy to lead his troops into an unknown 
environment against an unknown force AND he gives all the ammo to one man.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 08/04/02 03:39:21 GMT Daylight Time, gridlore@mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;One word. F*#&amp;ing officers.<BR>
&gt;Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the<BR>
&gt;officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to<BR>
&gt;enter direct combat (It says so in the directors<BR>
&gt;interview on the DVD).<BR>
<BR>
OK, that's not what I got at *all*&nbsp; Gorman was inexperienced, that's <BR>
all.&nbsp; All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window <BR>
as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.<BR>
<BR>
Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get <BR>
Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.&nbsp; In my view, those <BR>
are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
What about the Sergeant (Apone?) - I thought the role of an NCO was to stop the officers messing everything up? Clearly he has more experience than Gorman and yet he's quite happy to lead his troops into an unknown environment against an unknown force AND he gives all the ammo to one man.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 11:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 10:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <20408.003625.1N7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408123225.02823ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Leonard Erickson discusses the antihijacker issue:
> > If nobody else does, then
> > insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security
> > measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time
> > and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.
>
>You are considering *installation* costs. I'm talking about the costs
>in time wasted due to "overly stringent" security getting in the way.
>
>Oil tankers are expensive too. So are modern freighters. And *safety*
>gear on them that "gets in the way" is routinely bypassed by crews,
>never mind "security" gear.

I wholeheartedly agree that personnel will tend to ignore things that are 
inconvenient.  That's partly why insurers and lenders and regulators at 
starports will be the ones insisting on enforcement through certifications 
and inspections.  They won't expect ship crews to take care of it on their own.

I think the analogy with ocean-going vessels in our own world is useful, 
but not a complete analogy.  I think tankers and freighters mostly rely for 
their safety on the fact that any hijacker has an extremely difficult time 
fencing the rather unique and obvious stolen property.  As well as a 
communication network that is practically instantaneous around the globe 
and military patrols being able to reach the vessel by aircraft at speeds 
at least an order of magnitude faster than the vessel can travel.


> > Oh, I'm not sure that the phrase "kill switches" was supposed to mean
> > mantrap defenses.  I think it may have meant disabling critical ship's
> > systems.  Perhaps a triphammer smashes the zuchai crystals.  <G>
>
>I didn't think it did. I know what a kill switch is. I brought up
>lethal defenses because they have been discussed in the past, and would
>have popped up any minute anyway.
>
>And yes, the TU isn't the US. Some places are less forgiving, some are
>more. Which laws apply to a ship in port could get very important.
>
> >>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
> >>someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
> >>attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...
>
> > I see we've met some of the same player characters.  :->
>
>Alas, I understand that there have actually been a couple of real world
>cases of this already. And it's been a standard dodge in fiction for
>*at least* 50 years.

Sounds like our overall positions are not that far apart after all.  My 
vision of antihijacking measures is moderated and mitigated by all the 
things you've pointed out.  I do believe that captain and crew should have 
very quick access in case of emergency, and that daily activities should be 
only slightly impacted or not impacted at all, if possible.  Overrides 
should be available in multiple ways.  If this leaves loopholes that can be 
exploited by a determined, knowledgable, and clever foe then that risk is 
recompensed by all the honest passengers and crew who are saved from being 
victims of dangerously rigid security systems.  But, within those 
restrictions, a few hundred years of big business should be able to work 
out a lot of safeguards that are very effective.  Starship owners willing 
to seek the right vendors, sign enough waivers, or maybe go outside the 
astrographical borders under the watchful eyes of various regulators to set 
up their security will still be able to do perhaps ill-advised things.  And 
then you have your crews who will disable or circumvent safeguards despite 
all the doublechecks  and safety inspections.  I imagine skilled hijackers 
will look for telltales of such ships, avoid the dangerous ones and seek 
the easier marks.

I cannot honestly say that any group of players I'm familiar with has shown 
the planning, forethought, and teamwork necessary to get away with 
hijacking a Traveller ship using what I consider standard antihijacking 
measures and more than a dozen parsecs inside Imperial borders.  I can also 
honestly say that I can envision many ways in which a group of players 
_could_ succeed if only they didn't insist on being such "cowboys".

So, IMTU hijacking can and does happen, particularly near or outside the 
borders of the major interstellar polities.  But players would be foolish 
to try it themselves.  And the standard shipboard safeguards are designed 
to keep crews composed of people like my players from getting themselves or 
others inadvertently killed.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Who wants an atom laser?
Message-ID: <DAV60c7vtdFq7ImxUkM000015b1@hotmail.com>

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/20mar_newmatter.htm

And how useful would one be in space combat?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:14:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:14:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Who wants an atom laser?
In-Reply-To: <DAV60c7vtdFq7ImxUkM000015b1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018289637.113.ajackson@ping>

Texas Redshift writes:
> http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/20mar_newmatter.htm
> 
> And how useful would one be in space combat?

Since they require working at the temperature of a bose-einstein condensate,
not very; the beam would move incredibly slowly, and have a very low energy
content.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGMEANCFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408033711.7417D27A19@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408135946.02824dd0@pop.wizard.net>

At 09:47 AM 4/8/02 -0600, you wrote:
>I was reading an article recently by a US Army surgeon who served in Vietnam
>(Martin Fackler).  He found that the 7.62x39 would penetrate 29 inches of
>ballistic gelatin, the 5.56x45 (M193) penetrates 13+ inches, and the 7.62x51
>penetrates 25 inches (all FMJ).  Although the 7.62x39 had the deepest
>penetration, it produced the least devestating wound.  The bullet
>penetrated, turned around, and then exited.  He says, from his experience in
>Vietnam, the "average uncomplicated thigh wound was about what one would
>expect from a low-powered handgun: a small, punctate entrance and exit wound
>with minimal intervening muscle disruption."  The US 7.62x51 produced an
>uncomplicated wound profile like the 7.26x39.  The 5.56 produced a pretty
>devestating wound, because the bullet would, as it yawed, split in half,
>with the base fragmenting into a number of smaller projectiles.  This
>reduced penetration, but made a big hole (up to 5" in diameter).  Velocity
>had to be at least 2700 fps for the bullet to fragment (muzzle velocity with
>a M16 is like 3200+), and no fragmentation took place until the bullet had
>penetrated 4-5" of tissue.

With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to 
the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300 
feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the 
government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting.

I did all my reading on this topic over a dozen years ago, but I seem to 
recall that there has been plenty of reliable material published that 
debunked the notion of the magical differences causing the 5.56 to tumble, 
etc. when no other bullets were able to achieve the same effect.  I said 
that very poorly.  What I mean is that government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam 
had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other 
assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.  Including poorer 
accuracy.  When combat took place at very limited range, this was less of a 
problem.  Plus the fact that most combatants on either side had a tendency 
to cease fighting when they received more than a superficial wound, unless 
they were heroes or tactical circumstances were desperate.  Sort of 
analagous to playing touch football instead of normal football.  You don't 
have to tackle someone to bring them down, just touch them with both hands 
and they're required to stop running and the play is over.  Contrary to the 
popular image, lots of infantry combat in Viet Nam took place at pretty 
long range.  A sort of contest of wimps, I guess, between the fairly 
lightweight and unstable 5.56 and the more substantial but lower speed 7.62x39.

Let us please leave as a separate thread the discussion of whether aimed 
rifle fire is any different in battlefield effectiveness from unaimed 
fire.  Except to note that _if_ you are an unmodified adherent of the 
theory popular among many experts that there is no difference, then by 
corollary it shouldn't matter whether the rifle used is accurate or 
not.  Continuing to look at that corollary, if two different rifles have 
the same range, inflict equivalent damage on the human body at that range, 
and penetrate cover and concealment equally, then accuracy won't make a 
significant difference in the vast majority of fights at long range.

Please let us not debate the validity of that theory (again) here.  And 
certainly don't ask _me_ to defend that theory, regardless of how many 
people with more knowledge than I have may argue convincingly in its 
favor.  But if you wish to comment on the corollaries I propose above, then 
I think that is virgin territory for us to debate.

>Interestingly, German 7.62x51 bullets have a thinner jacket, and that round
>would fragment like the 5.56.
>
>I have read before that 5.56 soft points have pathetic penetration in
>tissue, but 308 caliber soft points certainly get good penetration and
>produce enormous wounds.  Bullet construction seems to be critical in
>producing wounds; that seems to be largely ignored in Traveller other than
>HE and DS rounds.
>
>I wonder, does the Imperium follow the Geneva convention regarding FMJ
>rounds?

This last part has put your finger on a very important point.  I'm quite 
sure the Geneva Conventions are long since defunct in Milieu 0 and onward, 
although that's just my ever-humble opinion.  ;->  And yes, projectile 
design has a _lot_ to do with ballistics, at least when talking about 
infantry or hunting weapons.

Recently, Tod Glenn seems to have made the most articulate explanations on 
the TML for why gauss weapons will be the infantry weapons of choice at 
tech levels that permit them.  The explanations include convincing reasons 
for typical gauss ammo to both penetrate armor and damage human bodies very 
well without needing a variety of fiendish projectile designs to achieve 
the intended effect.  NB that the projectile needs to be travelling at a 
velocity greater than 1,450 meters per second in order to do all 
this.  Sorry, Tod, to single you out by name but you have indeed been the 
most articulate, informative, and convincing poster on that thread and I 
believe in giving credit where it is due.  :->

Canonical gauss weapons get muzzle velocities well in excess of 1,450 m/s, 
but I am too lazy at the moment to look up the information required to 
calculate how far they will travel down range before falling below that 
important velocity.  But you don't have to be Isaac Newton to realize it's 
plenty far enough to be a useful military longarm.  And that even a long, 
skinny piece of iron travelling at say 800 m/s is something you'd rather 
have not hit you.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408144051.02823ba0@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert Boleyn responds to me on the continuing thread:
>On 8 Apr 2002 at 0:22, laning wrote:
>
> > Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units
> > in Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no
> > provision whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up
> > against the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win
> > because of their balanced organization and integral combat and
> > logistical support, despite their major technological disadvantage.
>
>I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were
>based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped
>their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its
>subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its
>companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it
>belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles,
>field ovens, etc.

The missing TO&E elements that I'm most troubled by are indirect fire 
support weapons and special weapons.  No Auto RAM grenade launchers, no 
light mortars, no heavy machine guns, no antiarmor weapons.  That sort of 
thing.  We can always at least pretend that things like field ovens are 
held by dedicated support units that are outside the battalion or regiment 
level.  I'm also troubled by the lack of staff officers and troops.  There 
is no Logistics, Intelligence, or Operations section in any of the 
battalions or regiments I can recall.  Even the Soviets and the Chinese 
haven't simplified so much that there is no Logistics staff at regimental 
level.  But the biggest problem for me is the lack of supporting arms that 
you'd expect from TL 12 and TL 14 or 15 organizations.


>I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
>the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
>used to supply and support its troops.

Yeah, it's unclear to me exactly what mission the Milieu 1100 Imperial army 
and marines are tailored to.  Fully mobilized general warfare against 
opponents like the Outworld Coalition?  Internal control and 
policing?  Border defense against pocket empires and pirates?  And just how 
much orbital supremacy do they count on achieving and maintaining?  Perhaps 
all they expect from their regiments is for them to be glorified armed 
reconnaissance sufficient to get ortillery observers to bring accurate fire 
onto important targets and then accept the surrender of local opposition 
commanders.  I am comfortable with that sort of scenario happening a lot, 
but certainly not all, of the time.  But even so, the regiments would be 
much better off as true combined arms teams, not just a bunch of mobile 
riflemen.

I'm something of a so-called grognard gamer at this point, and maybe my 
desire for more detailed TO&Es is the incipient miniatures player in me.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 13:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 12:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
 <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>

Doug Berry says:

>GT Ground Forces has complete brigade and regiment TO&Es for the Unified 
>Armies of the Imperium and the Imperial Marine Force.  I spent most of my 
>time developing the support units, and much of the Operations chapter is 
>dedicated to issues of supply and support.
>
>The Standard Issue chapter has the 30,000dton Keith-class brigade 
>transport, along with its six Nakerth-class landers.. 1,200 tons each, 
>carrying a full combat battalion to a world's surface. There is also the 
>Caen-class dropship, the standard 1,200 transport for the Imperial Marines.
>
>Among the vehicles included are a recovery sled, a heavy G-Carrier, and an 
>engineering sled.

It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and 
equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really 
good work being done there.

The Keith-class was named in honor?  Well done.  :->

If I were the Imperium, I wouldn't bother to build standard troop 
transports that carry less than a complete battalion.  Brigades or 
divisions would have logistical elements that are more forward on the 
battlefield, and most of the logistical tail on the ground would be at 
corps level or higher.  It sounds like the Keith class represents pretty 
similar thinking.  :->

I think there is a very important, but still subsidiary, role for ships 
that transport and land Imperial Marine companies and it sounds like you 
think the same way.  You're probably aware that the US considers the Marine 
battalion to be the standard chunk to embark and deploy, plus full 
supporting elements.  But there are a lot of ways in which they are poor 
analogues for Imperial Marines.

Your grav sleds make a lot of sense.  I bet you have ambulance sleds, aid 
station sleds, and field kitchen sleds too?

Finally, I've been meaning for a long time to compliment you on the sig 
about embracing fascism because the uniforms look cool.  Nice.
:->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 13:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 12:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:04:22PM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net> <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020408130651.A1686@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:04:22PM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and 
> equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really 
> good work being done there.

It's probably a better investment than anything in the CT family...

GURPS is actually pretty nice.  I'm still hoping for GURPS: 1889
(first, use every cinematic rule...).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 13:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 12:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <20020408130651.A1686@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
 <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408153253.02eaa320@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl replies to me:
>On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:04:22PM -0400, laning wrote:
> >
> > It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and
> > equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really
> > good work being done there.
>
>It's probably a better investment than anything in the CT family...

But I already own everything in the CT family.  :->

Except a couple of alien modules, dangit.  I'm getting pretty strung out 
waiting for the reprint from Far Future!

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
Message-ID: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>But I already own everything in the CT family.  :->
>
I have that, the reprints, and everything that Leading Edge 
ever printed for Phoenix Command.

And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as 
PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.

I've noticed that with skill resolution or combat resolution 
systems, you've got too simple (CT), or simply inaccurate 
with too much potatoes (GURPS), or wildly inaccurate with 
long weapon lists (Rifts), or terribly accurate but nearly 
unplayable unless you are all gearheads with 12 hours to do 
60 seconds of combat (PCCS).

Friends, there has to be something better. Something that is 
a compromise between CT and PCCS, that doesn't make gross 
errors, that's as quick to play as Shellshock, and now Doug 
will beat me with a penguin....

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam Draper)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>

laning@wizard.net wrote:

>With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to
>the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300
>feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the
>government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting."

I have not heard this before about Vietnam era ammo.  I can tell you that
current production military production Lake City and Winchester ammo is
meeting mil-spec (3200+ fps for M193 (for M16A1s) and 3000+ fps for M855
(for M16A2s)).  The army still buys M16A1 ammo for rifles still in service
with the National Guard.  It is not match ammo, but the accuracy is pretty
good.  Certainly good enough to hit a torso at 500 yards with iron sights.

>government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam
>had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other
>assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.  Including poorer
>accuracy.

This guy Facker's experiences were exactly the opposite.  Most of the
comlaints I have heard about the early M16 stems from the poor reliability,
which was a result of the Army using the wrong kind of powder.  There is
also a pretty big prejudice against the smaller caliber, which is somewhat
understandable given that few states allow hunters to use .223 on big game.
And deer do not shoot back.  But the 7.62x39 is pretty similar ballistically
to the venerable 30/30; with FMJ bullets it would hardly be a death ray
either.

That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than the
AK-47 or even the M14.

>Let us please leave as a separate thread the discussion of whether aimed
>rifle fire is any different in battlefield effectiveness from unaimed
>fire.

Like I said above, the M16 is a very accurate platform.  It will make pretty
small holes once the muzzle velocity falls below 2700 fps (about 15-200
yards).  Fortunately, like you said, most opponents will take a powder once
they are shot, no matter how severe the wound.

>Recently, Tod Glenn seems to have made the most articulate explanations on
>the TML for why gauss weapons will be the infantry weapons of choice at
>tech levels that permit them.

That is very interesting.  I have read in tests that little darts at high
velocities are remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do
little tissue damage.  But odd things happen at high velocities.  I'll see
if I can dig up my source.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:15:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:15:38 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
In-Reply-To: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D7483C.37BB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 12:59 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as
> PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.

Please enlighten me.  PCCS?
> 
> I've noticed that with skill resolution or combat resolution
> systems, you've got too simple (CT), or simply inaccurate
> with too much potatoes (GURPS), or wildly inaccurate with
> long weapon lists (Rifts), or terribly accurate but nearly
> unplayable unless you are all gearheads with 12 hours to do
> 60 seconds of combat (PCCS).

That's the GM's jog, isn't it?  Personally, I like a combat system that can
be handled with a couple of die rolls.  I use modified CT and fill in the
missing details

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
In-Reply-To: <B8D7483C.37BB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018297856.1051.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 4/8/02 12:59 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as
> > PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.
> 
> Please enlighten me.  PCCS?

I'd guess on phoenix command.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:56:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:56:04 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
Message-ID: <200204082055.DQH04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn asks
>
>Please enlighten me.  PCCS?

Phoenix Command Combat System, 4th Edition, with all 
supplements. A product of the now defunct Leading Edge Games.

>
>That's the GM's jog, isn't it?  Personally, I like a combat 
>system that can be handled with a couple of die rolls.  I 
>use modified CT and fill in the missing details
>

The rolls are quick enough for the experienced GM using PCCS -
 it's the players who choke on it if they don't like having 
to plan their actions to the Nth detail, or look through 
tables, or recalculate this and that.  It comes with a 
stripped down version as well, but if you had bought PCCS for 
the realism, the stripped version bites.

Also, the wounding and incapacitation tends to be tedious.  
You do receive points of damage, but most of the time it's so 
far off the scale you just fall down and die later.  Rifle 
rounds in particular will just *do* you.  One hit from a 
Garand in the torso and you're going to die if the medic 
doesn't stabilize you (that's if you didn't die outright).  
The odds of a graze are not as high as you would like.  And 
you *can* kill someone with a .22 pistol shot to the eye, if 
you're lucky.  Try and kill someone with a body pistol in 
CT.  It won't happen to the average character.  OTOH, you 
could be hit by two people who empty their Walther PPKs into 
you in PCCS, and if you're hit just right, you won't fall 
down until later.  Gives you that extra time to point that 
Super 90 in their direction and make them eat it.

The advanced small arms damage tables from the game came from 
Computerman, a model you may recall.  Now try that by hand 
instead of by computer.

Not like some games where you get popped with 3D6 and keep 
running.

You can take it to extremes: bullets have "time of flight", 
weapons have a maximum ballistic accuracy, a maximum aim time 
beyond which aiming does no good, some weapons come to aim 
quicker but less accurately than others, while others may be 
slower but far more sure.  Excellent shotgun rules. There are 
good rules for leadership and planning.  Extensive animal 
rules, which are quite good.  Hand to hand is not so good, 
but you'll be shot before you get that close.  Blind fire, 3-
round burst, it goes on and on.  If you're a weapon gearhead, 
this is definitely the combat system for you. My favorite 
supplement has riot control weapons (plastic coated steel 
balls and rubber baton rounds), claymore, miniguns, 
flamethrowers, etc.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:17:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:17:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408170314.024b6258@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:46 PM 4/8/2002, Sam Draper wrote:
>I have read in tests that little darts at high velocities are remarkably 
>innefective.  They just punch through and do little tissue damage.

 From what I recall reading, the 60's era Army tests with high-velocity 
flechettes in the SPIW program.  This weapon was proposed by AAI, and fired 
65 gram steel flechette at high velocity (about 4800fps).  It was supposed 
to be quite effective at energy transfer - the dart would deform on hitting 
the target, and cause massive wounding.  In the 80's, Styr's Advanced 
Combat Rifle used the same general type of projectile.  In both projects, 
difficulties in manufacturing the ammunition led to relatively low accuracy.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408170314.024b6258@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>

Derek Wildstar writes:
> At 03:46 PM 4/8/2002, Sam Draper wrote:
> >I have read in tests that little darts at high velocities are remarkably 
> >innefective.  They just punch through and do little tissue damage.
> 
>  From what I recall reading, the 60's era Army tests with high-velocity 
> flechettes in the SPIW program.  This weapon was proposed by AAI, and fired
>  65 gram steel flechette at high velocity (about 4800fps).

I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).  A 65 gram
projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 2:21 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).  A 65 gram
> projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.


I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:53:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:53:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408170314.024b6258@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175151.020da5c8@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:21 PM 4/8/2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain

Probably.  ;-)  I'm at work, so I'm working from memory ...


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175242.01e90560@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:47 PM 4/8/2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
>I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.

That would be the one - I couldn't remember it's number (all I could 
remember was the name of the program, "SPIW".  I vaguely recall that AAI 
built the initial weapon, and that one of the armories made improved 
versions - but they had trouble with the tolerances on the ammo, and 
couldn't make it reliable enough for economical manufacture, let alone 
issue - so the M16 got the nod).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:56:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:56:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175242.01e90560@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:47 PM 4/8/2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
>I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.

That would be the one - I couldn't remember it's number (all I could 
remember was the name of the program, "SPIW".  I vaguely recall that AAI 
built the initial weapon, and that one of the armories made improved 
versions - but they had trouble with the tolerances on the ammo, and 
couldn't make it reliable enough for economical manufacture, let alone 
issue - so the M16 got the nod).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 16:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 15:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175151.020da5c8@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <B8D760BD.37C1C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 2:52 PM, Derek Wildstar at wildstar@qrc.com wrote:

> At 05:21 PM 4/8/2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain
> 
> Probably.  ;-)  I'm at work, so I'm working from memory ...

Aha!  Don't have your copy of the Stevens and Ezell book (The deadliest
weapon that never was). How fortuitous that I have that little factoid
memorized.  My wife says I have the gum brain.  <g>
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 16:17:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Mon Apr  8 15:17:35 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Ship Storage
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17920@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

	Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
on the number of ship's crew and other factors?

Mikey:
I figured that Life Support for X days covers food
space/requirements/storage. Anything extra above that for life support is 1
ton = 150 man days of food/supplies (based on Belt Strike????)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 16:44:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 15:44:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408144051.02823ba0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB2C59D.18860.53D550@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 14:53, laning wrote:

> The missing TO&E elements that I'm most troubled by are indirect fire
> support weapons and special weapons.  No Auto RAM grenade launchers, no
> light mortars, no heavy machine guns, no antiarmor weapons.  That sort
> of thing.  We can always at least pretend that things like field ovens
> are held by dedicated support units that are outside the battalion or
> regiment level.  I'm also troubled by the lack of staff officers and
> troops.  There is no Logistics, Intelligence, or Operations section in
> any of the battalions or regiments I can recall.  Even the Soviets and
> the Chinese haven't simplified so much that there is no Logistics staff
> at regimental level.  But the biggest problem for me is the lack of
> supporting arms that you'd expect from TL 12 and TL 14 or 15
> organizations.

Looking at the TO they have artillery at Regimental and Battalion 
level, armed with MRLs and missile launchers. The APCs carry 6 tac 
missiles (except fire support models which have VRF gauss MGs instead) 
and thirty smaller fire & forget missiles. They also have the use of 
three SDBs for ortillery support. All this from _The Spinward Marches 
Campaign_. Even so they seem to be under equipped with indirect fire 
support (more like a Soviet tank regiment than anything else). I 
suspect (though CT didn't say much on this AFAIK) that good point-
defence systems could have a lot to do with this - you'd want to use a 
lot of direct fire and _fast_ rockets and missiles in such an 
environment.

They also have 10 Ramparts, for local aerospace superoirity missions 
and recon I presume. I'm not sure of the utility of these, to be 
honest.

SMC doesn't say what the troopies are equiped with, but Striker II 
(which has the same TO listed) tells us that they're all in TL-14 heavy 
battledress and have fusion rifles and tac missiles in each 5-man 
squad.

> >I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
> >the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
> >used to supply and support its troops.
> 
> Yeah, it's unclear to me exactly what mission the Milieu 1100 Imperial
> army and marines are tailored to.  Fully mobilized general warfare
> against opponents like the Outworld Coalition?

That would be the Army, but not all of it. I suspect you'd need the TO 
of one of the units used in the Seige of Terra to get a look at an 
Imperial 'assault' or 'tank' unit.

> Internal control and
> policing?  Border defense against pocket empires and pirates?  And just
> how much orbital supremacy do they count on achieving and maintaining?

All of it, of course.

> Perhaps all they expect from their regiments is for them to be glorified
> armed reconnaissance sufficient to get ortillery observers to bring
> accurate fire onto important targets and then accept the surrender of
> local opposition commanders.  I am comfortable with that sort of
> scenario happening a lot, but certainly not all, of the time.  But even
> so, the regiments would be much better off as true combined arms teams,
> not just a bunch of mobile riflemen.

They do have a lot of organic firepower, and a decent number of tanks. 
Again it looks more like a Soviet unit than a Western one (MR in this 
case) - lots of organic direct-fire and anti-tank support, and the 
artillery held higher up. And those tanks are really big and nasty, 
BTW.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
References: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB220F3.A0C5FF6A@premier.net>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Friends, there has to be something better. Something that is
> a compromise between CT and PCCS, that doesn't make gross
> errors, that's as quick to play as Shellshock, and now Doug
> will beat me with a penguin....
> 
Nah, he'll just hit you with a rolled-up copy of _At Close Quarters_....

http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?BITSRACQ

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
In-Reply-To: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020408193202.00e31ac0@buffnet.net>

At 03:59 PM 4/8/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>laning says
>>
>>But I already own everything in the CT family.  :->
>>
>I have that, the reprints, and everything that Leading Edge 
>ever printed for Phoenix Command.
>
>And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as 
>PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.

Two comments:

1) PCCS can be streamlined with the use of Excel
2) PCCS doesn't differentiate between someone who knows how to use a pistol
versus one who uses a shotgun


If you want to, build a simple database using excel and have a single page
that has the following entries:

Weapon
aim point
aim time
range
Stance
daylight

Die roll to hit

From that, it should be simple enough to determine what the results are...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408232954.14194.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
But yeah, the unit suffered from Hollywooditis. Who
issues a support weapon you have to use standing up?
END QUOTE

If you gave me a support weapon that had thermal
seeking rounds I would use it standing up ;) And
remember they where colonial marines. Probably didn't
get as much training as they should.

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020408233500.27629.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
>>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be
>>defeated rather easily by someone ruthless enough.
>>That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be attached to
>>the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...

> I see we've met some of the same player characters. 
:->

Alas, I understand that there have actually been a
couple of real world cases of this already. And it's
been a standard dodge in fiction for *at least* 50
years.
END QUOTE

I read in the paper that a finger print scanner that
tells if the finger is a live by scanning under the
top layers of skin has been developed. This will
bugger up all those PC's who chop of peoples fingers
;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
Message-ID: <200204082337.DQN01624@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

hal@buffnet.net  says
>Two comments:
>
>1) PCCS can be streamlined with the use of Excel
>2) PCCS doesn't differentiate between someone who knows how 
>to use a pistol versus one who uses a shotgun
>
That's up to the referee to divide gun combat skills. It 
would appear that the designers left the "roleplaying" part 
of the game in a half-baked condition.  However, I haven't 
had any trouble mapping the system to CT skills.

>If you want to, build a simple database using excel and have 
>a single page that has the following entries:
>
>Weapon
>aim point
>aim time
>range
>Stance
>daylight
>
>Die roll to hit
>
That's not the problem so much as the players being happy 
with the action sequencing and pre-planned movement (in the 
advanced rules).  Most players are uncomfortable with action 
counts to that level of detail (a much higher level of detail 
than At Close Quarters or Snapshot).  

I've written an application in Smalltalk to do the whole 
firing and damage sequence - that was easy.  But it didn't 
solve the player's dislike of millisecond level detail.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408235622.20414.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
We'll gladly take you, son.  You don't have to be a
U.S. citizen to be a U.S. Marine.  I shared a barracks
room for a year with a Lebanese Christian 
who was still a Lebanese citizen.  Contact the closest
American consulate if you're serious.  Be sure to be
able to do lots of pull ups from a dead hang and run
three miles in under say 24 minutes.

And when you get off the plane to go to the Marine
Corps Recruit Depot, just remember these two words: 
"yellow footprints".  <WEG>

Much more serious advice.  Possibly the most important
advice you will ever get in your life.  Find an MOS
that gives you the training and expertise you want to
use in your civilian career after you get it, and get
that guaranteed in writing and signed by an officer. 
Do not accept any talk no matter how reasonable or
persuasive as a substitute.  Get the MOS you want, 
guaranteed.  In writing.  In writing.

--Laning
END QUOTE

Well I would try that except my mother would kill me
;)
She worries enough about me joining the reserves here,
let alone the regular army or god forbid the USMC. She
really worries that with all that's happening there is
going to be another big war. I will however take your
advice on getting my MOS guaranteed in writing from an
officer. I wouldn't want to end up cooking :) I may
even move down near Sydney so I can join a cavalry
unit. That way I wouldn't have to be a dirty rotten
leg :)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 18:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Mon Apr  8 17:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
In-Reply-To: <200204082337.DQN01624@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHMEDNDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

>> John Kwon
>> But it didn't solve the player's dislike of millisecond level detail.

Having played PCCS, I like the system a great deal.  However, actual use
becomes more of a simulation as opposed to an RPG, which is my take on why
people dont like it.  It is hard to come up with a good balance as players
want a wide spectrum of "realism" in their games.

As for the skills in the game, the rules were always meant to be added into
other systems as a combat overlay.  They just say "Gun skill" and leave the
referee to decide if it is for all Pistols, a specific pistol, or simply all
firearms.

Justin


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 18:32:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 17:32:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
In-Reply-To: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHMEDNDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
References: <200204082337.DQN01624@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020408203714.00e31ac0@buffnet.net>

At 05:23 PM 4/8/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>>> John Kwon
>>> But it didn't solve the player's dislike of millisecond level detail.
>
>Having played PCCS, I like the system a great deal.  However, actual use
>becomes more of a simulation as opposed to an RPG, which is my take on why
>people dont like it.  It is hard to come up with a good balance as players
>want a wide spectrum of "realism" in their games.
>
>As for the skills in the game, the rules were always meant to be added into
>other systems as a combat overlay.  They just say "Gun skill" and leave the
>referee to decide if it is for all Pistols, a specific pistol, or simply all
>firearms.

At one point in time, I created a set of rules for using PCCS with GURPS.
It worked relatively well.  My players still remember the time they caught
a military patrol in a ravine.  They had two laws plus assorted personal
fire arms (was an Aftermath like scenario).  Took out the radioman plus the
officer, along with the squad weapon user.  After that, it was mostly a mop
up.  The trick to using GURPS with PCCS is to use Movement points as action
points.  The average DX guy using guns with no weapon skill is a skill
rating of 7.  Someone marginally trained in the weapon is skill 10.  The
chart of course continues from there...

         Hal

PS - if you have the sci-fi version of the weapons from PCCS, it makes for
an interesting mix ;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 18:35:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 17:35:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB2DFC4.13707.BA0366@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 13:46, Sam Draper wrote:

> That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
> because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than
> the AK-47 or even the M14.

In that case the M14 must be considerably less accurate than the old M1 
Garand its based on. IMER the M1 is at least as accurate as the M16A1, 
assuming similar conditions.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408181400.027f5840@pop.wizard.net>

At 01:46 PM 4/8/02 -0600, you wrote:
>laning@wizard.net wrote:
>
> >With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to
> >the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300
> >feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the
> >government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting."
>
>I have not heard this before about Vietnam era ammo.

In the 1980s also.  Marines I knew would take samples home and take them 
apart.  I believe it was the sniper school at Quantico where one of the 
officers told me that the bullets were 52 grains, on average, rather than 
the 55 grains the government was paying for.  And there wasn't as much 
powder as there was supposed to be, but don't recall the specific numbers 
now.  I seem to recall reading something similar somewhere at the time, 
maybe in 'Soldier of Fortune'?  Anyway, I was told by the people who 
randomly checked the ammo that reached the front-line troops that we were 
typically getting 2100 fps, and it wasn't very unusual to get under 1800 
fps.  All of this is subject to my memory working correctly, which isn't 
just a boilerplate warning, I have significant problems with it.  The same 
kind of scams take place in government purchasing all the time.  Once the 
initial production runs have been accepted, the quality checks are very 
coarse and easy to see coming.  And possibly there's some graft at work, 
too.  Everything from clothing being a little lighter weight than paid for 
to rations being a little lighter.  An unscrupulous contractor often finds 
it's easy to increase their profit margin by five percent or so, this way.


>   I can tell you that
>current production military production Lake City and Winchester ammo is
>meeting mil-spec (3200+ fps for M193 (for M16A1s) and 3000+ fps for M855
>(for M16A2s)).

How is this data verified or acquired, please?  I'm just curious to get 
another data point, not being accusatory or argumentative.  :->

>   The army still buys M16A1 ammo for rifles still in service
>with the National Guard.  It is not match ammo, but the accuracy is pretty
>good.  Certainly good enough to hit a torso at 500 yards with iron sights.

We were all doing that with our crappy ammo in the 1980s.  It's easy when 
they hold nice and still and you can take your time firing.

> >government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam
> >had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other
> >assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.  Including poorer
> >accuracy.
>
>This guy Facker's experiences were exactly the opposite.  Most of the
>comlaints I have heard about the early M16 stems from the poor reliability,
>which was a result of the Army using the wrong kind of powder.

Partly.  What I hear mentioned only rarely is that any really high velocity 
weapon necessarily requires closer working tolerances for moving 
parts.  That means it doesn't take much foreign material or carbon 
accumulation to jam or slow down a moving part.  Which leads us to the 
major difference between the M-16 and the M-16A1, addition of the forward 
assist to help clear jams and addition of the ejection port cover to help 
keep foreign material away from the bolt.

>   There is
>also a pretty big prejudice against the smaller caliber, which is somewhat
>understandable given that few states allow hunters to use .223 on big game.
>And deer do not shoot back.  But the 7.62x39 is pretty similar ballistically
>to the venerable 30/30; with FMJ bullets it would hardly be a death ray
>either.

The talk about pros and cons of various infantry weapons is so larded with 
prejudices that I figure none of us who open our mouths on the topic are 
completely free of some prejudice on it.  And many are really bad.  John 
Wayne smashing the M-16 against a tree in 'The Green Berets' and calling it 
a child's plastic toy and blaming it for the death of his troops.  Well, 
they couldn't smash a real M-16 against a tree because alloy and fiberglass 
is a lot tougher than what they thought of it back in 1966.  The director 
had to get an actual plastic toy imitation of an M-16 so that "the Duke" 
could smash it.  And there are at least tens of thousands of people who to 
this day think it's a cheap plastic piece of junk because of that 
movie.  People who carried one in a combat zone themselves and should know 
better.


>That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
>because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than the
>AK-47 or even the M14.
>
> >Let us please leave as a separate thread the discussion of whether aimed
> >rifle fire is any different in battlefield effectiveness from unaimed
> >fire.
>
>Like I said above, the M16 is a very accurate platform.  It will make pretty
>small holes once the muzzle velocity falls below 2700 fps (about 15-200
>yards).  Fortunately, like you said, most opponents will take a powder once
>they are shot, no matter how severe the wound.
The muzzle velocity remains the same, regardless of how far away the target 
is.  Muzzle velocity is the speed of the bullet as it leaves the 
muzzle.  The projectile velocity declines as it loses momentum from air 
friction and succumbing to gravity.  Muzzle velocity for government ammo 
for the A1 was just over 2700 fps.  I should be able to remember the 
precise figure, I thought that was indelibly inscribed in memory.  Had 
trouble the other day remembering my EAS date too!  Imagine that one.  I 
guess the Marine Corps Birthday will be the next to go, followed by my own 
birthday.  Hand loaders can get 3250 fps with a 56-grain bullet.  Anyway, 
it shot pretty accurately for me on the rifle range even on some fairly 
windy days.  And my score went up about 4 or 5 points when they gave me the A2.

The 5.56 in each of its incarnations ended up being a distinct improvement 
over the M-1 carbine in performance, and a lot more manageable than those 
big ol' M-14s.  The days I had to go on long runs with a rifle at port arms 
I was damned glad that the M-14 was before my time, let me tell you!  As I 
recall learning it, the story of the M-16 becoming the standard US infantry 
rifle was as much politics as anything else.  It found its way to being 
proposed for sale to military allies in Southeast Asia and other places 
where the average soldier was much smaller and lighter than the average US 
soldier (because of its lighter weight and lower recoil), wound up being 
used by special American units that worked closely with said allies as much 
for compatibility as anything, then was chosen as a suitable "carbine" 
replacement for troops in vehicles and such who only need something for 
self defense, and finally ended up being given to everyone in the name of 
standardization.  At almost each step on that path, something more was done 
to nerf the weapon.  I am sure I don't have all the details right, but 
that's the gist of it.  The A2 model was basically a step towards 
un-nerfing it, and giving it back some of the power it had in one of its 
earlier forms.  That decision too, was as much politics as anything 
else.  The official reason given was compatibility with the 5.56 ammo used 
by NATO allies.

Basically, the M-16 is a good varmint rifle on steroids, with the furniture 
and "accessories" suitable for a good assault rifle.  Just like the M-1 
Garand or M-14 are good deer and other medium game rifles on steroids, with 
improved furniture and "accessories" for their day and suitable for the 
battlefield.

I don't think it's a stupid idea to take a varmint rifle and turn it into a 
combat rifle.  It does have its advantages.  But I'd feel more sanguine 
about firing a 130-, 150- or 180-grain bullet from something chambered for 
7.62 NATO or .303 British than a 55-grain bullet.  Like most other things, 
it's a combination of trade offs because you can't have one thing that will 
give you all the attributes you wish for.


> >Recently, Tod Glenn seems to have made the most articulate explanations on
> >the TML for why gauss weapons will be the infantry weapons of choice at
> >tech levels that permit them.
>
>That is very interesting.  I have read in tests that little darts at high
>velocities are remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do
>little tissue damage.  But odd things happen at high velocities.  I'll see
>if I can dig up my source.

We're talking about gauss weapon projectiles moving at speeds well in 
excess of 1,450 meters per second or faster, not feet per second.  Just to 
remind everyone of the perspective.  By way of comparison, the nominal 
2,710 feet/second muzzle velocity of the old M-16 is only 826 meters/second.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408211451.027f3ec0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon's soul quests desperately for completion:

>I've noticed that with skill resolution or combat resolution
>systems, you've got too simple (CT), or simply inaccurate
>with too much potatoes (GURPS), or wildly inaccurate with
>long weapon lists (Rifts), or terribly accurate but nearly
>unplayable unless you are all gearheads with 12 hours to do
>60 seconds of combat (PCCS).
>
>Friends, there has to be something better.

Perfect opportunity for computer-aided gaming.  Combat software with the 
terrain map, weather, characters, equipment, etc. and the player tells the 
ref what he wants his character to do and the ref tells the 
computer.  Enter the moves for all characters, then hit Enter and find out 
what happens.  All input and output should go through the ref, so the ref 
can alter the cut & dried calculations to conform with what the referee 
believes or wants to manipulate.

Nobody seems interesting in writing that software because they're either 
writing traditional RPG rules, miniatures rules, or a complete computer 
game.  I must say it's hard to think of a business model where the 
developers will get paid more than nickels and dimes, so it's hard to blame 
folks for not doing it.

What's needed is a Nonprofit Institute for the Advancement of Game Design, 
with good funding.  There is something a little bit like that out there 
now, but it focuses on complete computer games and has various troubles 
including funding.  Or an open-source movement for computer-aided gaming 
that's widespread, the way the Linus open-source movement is widespread.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:26:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:26:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408180047.009f1d00@mindspring.com>

At 12:32 AM 4/9/02 +1200, you wrote:

>I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were
>based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped
>their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its
>subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its
>companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it
>belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles,
>field ovens, etc.

Give the man a see-gar.  I based the Imperial Army units in GF on the 
standards for Soviet units of similar size and missions. A Motorized Rifle 
Regiment was supposed to be a self-contained combat unit, able to fight on 
its own without the constant need to be tied to higher command just to 
perform its basic mission.

>I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
>the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
>used to supply and support its troops.

Remember what they say about assumptions...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:27:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:27:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408180410.00a05160@mindspring.com>

At 01:14 PM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>What about the Sergeant (Apone?) - I thought the role of an NCO was to 
>stop the officers messing everything up? Clearly he has more experience 
>than Gorman and yet he's quite happy to lead his troops into an unknown 
>environment against an unknown force AND he gives all the ammo to one man.

Apone was given a legal order by his commanding officer.  He followed 
it.  Evidently, SOP was to have one man carry all the ammo.  Oops. I'm 
surprised he didn't know that Drake had the extra BFG thingies.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
 <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408181304.009eb5c0@mindspring.com>

At 03:04 PM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and 
>equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really 
>good work being done there.

More than half the book is game neutral.  Just good information about the 
forces.

>The Keith-class was named in honor?  Well done.  :->

The lander's name is the M. Keith's name run through a Vilani name generator.


>If I were the Imperium, I wouldn't bother to build standard troop 
>transports that carry less than a complete battalion.  Brigades or 
>divisions would have logistical elements that are more forward on the 
>battlefield, and most of the logistical tail on the ground would be at 
>corps level or higher.  It sounds like the Keith class represents pretty 
>similar thinking.  :->

Yep.  I had a design for a *divisional* cold-sleep ship, but I had to make 
some space choices.

>I think there is a very important, but still subsidiary, role for ships 
>that transport and land Imperial Marine companies and it sounds like you 
>think the same way.  You're probably aware that the US considers the 
>Marine battalion to be the standard chunk to embark and deploy, plus full 
>supporting elements.  But there are a lot of ways in which they are poor 
>analogues for Imperial Marines.

Credit where credit is due Dpt. The vehicle and ship designs were the work 
of others.. I just put out deign ideas on a mailing list I established for 
the purpose, and we debated the various designs.  The entire 
Sunburst-series missile sleds were really fun to come up with.

>Your grav sleds make a lot of sense.  I bet you have ambulance sleds, aid 
>station sleds, and field kitchen sleds too?

These are simple conversion of the basic G-carrier, much like the US Army 
has these variations for the Hum-vee.'

>Finally, I've been meaning for a long time to compliment you on the sig 
>about embracing fascism because the uniforms look cool.  Nice.

Once again, not mine.  It was uttered on the TML by a soul who asked not to 
be attributed in the sig.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:35:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:35:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408180047.009f1d00@mindspring.com>
References: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB2EDB0.4851.F063FB@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 18:03, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 12:32 AM 4/9/02 +1200, you wrote:
> 
> >I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were
> >based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped
> >their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its
> >subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its
> >companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it
> >belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles,
> >field ovens, etc.
> 
> Give the man a see-gar.  I based the Imperial Army units in GF on the
> standards for Soviet units of similar size and missions. A Motorized
> Rifle Regiment was supposed to be a self-contained combat unit, able to
> fight on its own without the constant need to be tied to higher command
> just to perform its basic mission.

I was actually talking about the SMC and Striker II Imperial units (I 
already knew yours were based of the Soviets, though to me some of them 
look more like a US unit).
 
> >I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
> >the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
> >used to supply and support its troops.
> 
> Remember what they say about assumptions...

I never claimed that the Imperium was always right, or omnicompetent. 
:)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:38:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:38:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
Message-ID: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning tasks me
>
>Perfect opportunity for computer-aided gaming.  Combat 
>software with the terrain map, weather, characters, 
>equipment, etc. and the player tells the 
>ref what he wants his character to do and the ref tells the 
>computer.  Enter the moves for all characters, then hit 
>Enter and find out 
>what happens.

There's no reason I couldn't write this.  There's no reason 
it couldn't run over the Internet, either.

Damn you, laning....
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:39:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:39:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408181304.009eb5c0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB2EEB9.12979.F4729E@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 18:19, Douglas Berry wrote:

> Once again, not mine.  It was uttered on the TML by a soul who asked not
> to be attributed in the sig.

Wasn't that in relation to the Starship Troopers movie?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:41:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:41:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <200204090139.DQR01653@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>Oops. I'm surprised he didn't know that Drake had the extra 
>BFG thingies.
>

If I had the weapon out of the armory, M-16 or M21 or M24, I 
always had ammunition - even if I had not been issued any, or 
had been ordered to "give it up".
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 20:01:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 19:01:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408211451.027f3ec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:21:16PM -0400
References: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020408211451.027f3ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020408200055.A2997@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:21:16PM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> Nobody seems interesting in writing that software because they're either 
> writing traditional RPG rules, miniatures rules, or a complete computer 
> game.  I must say it's hard to think of a business model where the 
> developers will get paid more than nickels and dimes, so it's hard to blame 
> folks for not doing it.

My business model is I write software I want, then GPL it.  Thus it is
now and forevermore free, and will hopefully be of some use to the
world at large.  I pay for food by another mechanism entirely.

> Or an open-source movement for computer-aided gaming that's
> widespread, the way the Linux open-source movement is widespread.

Well, it's easy enough: start writing.  Linux didn't start out
well-funded; indeed, the vast majority of its development was
_unfunded_.  The whole mechanism is that one writes the kind of
software one wishes to use--then by using it, discovers where the
problems are, and fixes them.  The use of the GPL ensures that anyone
else who fixes a problem is incented to release his (small)
modification to your (major) work.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We English-speaking peoples should keep hold of the essential fact about
foreign languages: They exist to make us laugh.        --John Derbyshire

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 20:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 19:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <3CB2EEB9.12979.F4729E@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408181304.009eb5c0@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408190941.009f9670@mindspring.com>

At 01:38 PM 4/9/02 +1200, you wrote:
>On 8 Apr 2002 at 18:19, Douglas Berry wrote:
>
> > Once again, not mine.  It was uttered on the TML by a soul who asked not
> > to be attributed in the sig.
>
>Wasn't that in relation to the Starship Troopers movie?

Yep.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 20:53:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon Apr  8 19:53:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 08, 2002 12:47:07 AM
Message-ID: <200204090153.g391rtO02801@localhost.uia.net>

> Chemical reaction rates depend strongly on the mass of the atoms. Atoms
> with similar properties (same column in the periodic table) react at
> rates that are strongly connected with their mass differences. 
>
> So the rates might increase dramaticly.

Under, say 99%, inertial suppression, the mass-ratios would still
be the same as under zero suppression.
 
> Molecular collisions in air would result in the molecules stopping,
> rather than rebounding. So the opposing portions of their vectors would
> cancel out. Add in the effects of gravity, and all the air molecules
> would be in a thin layer near the floor. 

But gravity would have less of a pull of the air molecules, being that
they would have a lower apparent mass under inertial suppresion, so
again we're looking at these effects cancelling each other out.

> Thermal effects on the gases get weird too.

I'm not sure how to handle these.

Speaking on the atomic level:
> Then you're dead. Too many of the forces at those levels *do* depend on
> inertia. Lowering inertia raises the *effective* force.

I'm not sure what the effective force is. I've heard of strong, the
weak, the electromagnetic, and gravity. Maybe we should only be
considering these forces and how atoms would be effected different by
a lower constant for inertia across the entire system being considered.
Basically, I'm looking for an effect that would not cancel out. In
the first example you gave, you say that one molecule won't react
properly with another because the former's mass is too low. But what
if both of their masses are lower by the same percentage? In the
second example, you say that atoms bouncing against each other will
tend not to bounce as much under inertial suppression, and will tend
to crowd at the floor. But you fail to consider that gravity will have
less of a pull on inertia-suppressed molecules, so that the crowding
shouldn't occur. I think it would be better to look at really simple
problems in a closed system involving only a pair of atoms to show
how their movements would be changed if BOTH of their apparent masses
were lowered by the same percentage.

If we only look at gravity, I don't see there being any difference
in their movements. Masses fall at the same speed (newton). So inertial
supression should have no effect on gravity. As for the other four
forces, I don't know enough physics to answer that.

> As an example, the reason that water doesn't boil at around -150 F is
> because of Van der waals forces. Compare the boiling points of hydrogen
> oxide, hydrogen sulfide, and so on down that column in the periodic
> table. All of them *but* H2O have very low boiling points. 
>
> Lowering the inertia of the molecules will have the effect of adding
> similar forces. Which will change the physical and chemical properties
> of compounds *drastically*. 

Does this example consider that the entire system is inertially
suppressed to the same percentage, and that all four of the fundamental
forces are effected accordingly?

> >> This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
> >> work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
> >> viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.
> >
> > Except that your heart would also be of a lower apparent mass.
> 
> What's *that* got to do with it? The pumping forces are due to
> contraction of the muscle fibers. The mass of the heart has little
> relevance there. The only effect it'd have (to the first order, anyway)
> is making it *easier* to contract. 

Which is why I'd rather look at really simple systems of only a
pair of atoms, so that all the complicating factors can be taken
out of the way and we can see what would really occur at the most
fundamental level.
 
> > Instead of thinking of a normal pool ball hitting a styrofoam ball,
> > think of one styrofoam ball hitting another one. On the molecular
> > scale, I'm guessing that this would be more akin to what would be
> > happening. -Jim
> 
> Nope. Because you lose the rebound. 

I'm not talking about 100% inertial suppression. I agree that
this would cause a great deal of strangeness, which I don't
really want to examine. For practical purposes, I'm talking about
suppression somewhere between 90% and 99.999%. -Jim
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 21:05:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 20:05:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405074625.009ee8d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20408.200150.0q9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 05:45 AM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>Although my Dante is rusty and my personal sentiments
>>don't agree...
>>
>>"Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."
>
> That's Milton, from "Paradise Lost."
>
> Dante's best line came from The Inferno... the inscription on the gates of 
> Hell.
>
> "I AM THE WAY INTO THE CITY OF WOE
> I AM THE WAY TO A FORSAKEN PEOPLE
> I AM THE WAY INTO ETERNAL SORROW
>
> SACRED JUSTICE MOVED MY ARCHITECT
> I WAS RAISED THERE BY DIVINE OMNIPOTENCE
> PRIMORDIAL LOVE AND ULTIMATE INTELLECT.
>
> ONLY THOSE ELEMENTS TIME CANNOT WEAR
> WERE MADE BEFORE ME, AND BEYOND TIME I STAND.
> ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."
>
> I want that on the door to my gaming room.. :)

WSounds like the routine I pulled one Halloween when the local <adult>
club I belonged to was having a "play party". 

I'd answer the door, smile at the people and use a sweeping hand
gesture to invite them in as I quoted Dracula (from the movie):

"Enter freely, and of your own will..."

Only a few got it. You could tell by the *look* on their faces and the
way they thought it over for a minute before entering. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 21:06:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 20:06:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Tugs, etc
In-Reply-To: <200204041934.DIV01979@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20408.192730.5x5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I haven't seen many designs for a "tug", a useful vessel for 
> attaching to and moving other larger vessels.  Might also be 
> useful for moving large asteroids that come in from the outer 
> system and pose a hazard to navigation (or even to a planet).
>
> Was just reading
> http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-space-
> menace0404apr04.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnationworld%2Dheadlines
>
> and had a mental picture of some bored tug crew getting 
> orders to move out and push this piece of rock into the sun.

Solar impact trajectories require about half again as much delta-V as a
system escape trajactory.


escape velocity = sqrt(2) * orbital velocity.

Since you have to kill better than 90% of the oribital velocity to hit
the star....

It's *far* simpler to just adjust the orbit to not go near anyplace you
care about or to nudge it into a parking orbit around something.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 21:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon Apr  8 20:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 08, 2002 12:47:07 AM
Message-ID: <200204090209.g3929Gw02878@localhost.uia.net>

Okay, I'm going to post an argument which another friend
just sent me. This might scuttle the idea of inertial
suppression. Let me know what you think.

Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
suppression, they move toward each other much faster
than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
I wrong? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 22:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 21:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051636.DKL02665@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20408.201302.1d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> ObTrav:  The easiest holdout to design would be a laser.  You 
> could isolate the powerpack and electronics at some other 
> location under the clothing, run a fiber optic cable to the 
> hand area, contrive a trigger (ring pull?), and have the exit 
> optics somewhere over the back of the hand.  If you made a 
> fist, and curled the fist inward, the ring would pull the 
> trigger and the beam would fire over the back of the hand.

The optical fiber that can handle a weapons grade laser doesn't exist.
And isn't likely to. 

And one bit of damage and the laser energy gets deposited in the
damaged section of fiber. Ouch!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 22:41:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 21:41:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Grav Kitchens
Message-ID: <7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe@aol.com>

--part1_7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   I'd like to see that design :)
  -Ken-

--part1_7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;I'd like to see that design :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 22:46:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr  8 21:46:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <F149PnvEZZ91Lhdms4Q000022be@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1df81$7b919c00$0b01a8c0@duck>

>      You are correct, sir.  My apologies for "bum doping" the List.

And I apologize for sounding like a jerk.  I sometimes forget
how stuff will appear when someone else reads it.

>      "While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I
> don't see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the
> trick is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it."
>
>      Yes, seeding the star with enough tungsten and aiming correctly will
> take time.  Perhaps the Darrians use multiple probes to increase their
> chances?

That is a pretty reasonable idea.  I figure they would be jumping in with
a fleet, not just a squadron.  They probably have a couple of "probe" ships
and multiple ships that can deliver the meson trigger.

Plus, I also figure they would be dependent on relative surprise.  If they
face a coordinated defense that is expecting them, they are probably best
advised to try a different system in a week or so.

[ BIG snip ]
>      The "real" reason the Star Trigger wasn't used during all those
> centuries is that weapons of mass destruction aren't, except in very rare
> cases, used to ensure you'll WIN a war.  They're used to ensure that the
> other fellow LOSES the war.  This is a important distinction.  The Star
> Trigger and MAD, on which it is based, is a suicide pact; "You push us too
> far and we'll make sure we all die, you included."

Good point.  I was focused on the SW, not the bigger picture.  The
background does imply that the Star Trigger was created with the Zhodani
in mind, not the SW.  (Though if their relationship ever went sour,
they would probably include the Imperium with the Zhodani.)

>      The Trigger can be used defensively rather easily, by employing it
you
> ensure that the power about to conquer you is left with nothing worth
> conquering.  Using the Trigger offensively, like nukes, is far tougher.
...

I seriously doubt the Darrians would destroy their own worlds to prevent
capture.  The only reason I can think of for them to intentionally use
the Star Trigger in one of their own systems is if they believed they could
nail a major fleet, then come back in to fix the system.

They would, however, without hesitation do a deep penetration to wipe
out an enemy world.  Or several.

>      "I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an incredible
> accomplishment in its own right."
>
>      Keeping the secret that the Trigger demonstration was a fake was the
> really incrediable accomplishment.  The fakers had to fool both the
> observers from the other powers AND their own people utterly and
> completely.
>   Why didn't the secret never leak out?  Mass suicide among the project
> staff over "creating" so horrible a weapon?

I imagine the Darrians would be pragmatic enough to have a mass "suicide"
to keep the secret.  I figure some of those in the "suicide" really did
commit real suicide after making sure the "suicides" took place.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020409053141.28337.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Apone was given a legal order by his commanding
officer. He followed it.  Evidently, SOP was to have
one man carry all the ammo.  Oops. I'm surprised he
didn't know that Drake had the extra BFG thingies.
END QUOTE

No Doug, Vasquez had the extra links for the smart
guns. Tsk tsk tsk. Strap him down boys he needs
another four hours on continous loop. :) The thing I
find strange about the movie is that Apone doesn't
comment on Drake and Vasquez taking point even though
they have   "supposedly" disarmed weapons! The funny
thing is Aliens fans have bigger debates over the
whole "they don't show up on infrared issues" (If the
aliens temp is low enough not to show up on infrared,
they wouldn't be able to move fast)than even the TML
piracy debates. However we have a better handwave, its
those damned cheapskate manufacturers of IR gear ;)

Does anyone have tonnages for a TL-15 PAWS* spinal
mount.


*Penguin Accelerator Weapon System

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:38:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:38:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAIEKKCOAA.redroach@pobox.com>

The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
civilians.  It has little or no military application,
contrary to popular mythos.

I don't know about that. I saw a story on the History channel about a Marine
officer in Korea I think. He made his men take bayonet practice even though
it was outdated.  They got pinned down on patrol and ran out of ammo.  THe
officer led a successful bayonet charge up a hill which wiped out the North
Koreans. That sounds a bit drastic, but useful.

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:41:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:41:10 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin
 gs
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

I know this has probably gone the round on the TML, but just in case. 

Star Wars Name =

First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name

First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
were born. 

Which makes me Mikhu Huper

Damn it, I sound like the old store keeper dude from Sesame Street. 

Apologies if already discussed/known/rejected 'cause it's not canon,
concerns pirates and/or near C rocks etc. 

So Darrien Thistle, born in Ermington, with his mothers maiden name of
Vaddlepettle would be

.... Darth Vader

Nice. 

Mikey

Ob Trav: I think that is clear. 

PS So if Dave Jaques Watson was born in Canberra, and his mother's name was
Smith, he would be Davwa Smcan.

I think I'll make him the evil dude in my next campaign (someone with an
incurable, non fatal but disfiguring disease).

Heh Heh Heh. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>; from Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:02:40PM +1000
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020408234503.A15920@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:02:40PM +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name

Robuh

> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born. 

Menor

Robuh Menor--yer right; sounds vaguely like one of Lucas's fevered
imaginings.  Sehr amusant.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:52:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:52:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204090209.g3929Gw02878@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <200204090209.g3929Gw02878@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
> an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
> move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
> suppression, they move toward each other much faster
> than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
> I wrong?

If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
on each ion, then it is true.

If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
factor of 10.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <20020408.225739.-3503.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 14:02:40 +1000 "Hughes, Michael"
<Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au> writes:
>  
> Star Wars Name =Barst Cotor
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first 
> name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town 
> where you were born. 

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:57:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:57:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <OF1B531251.5105373F-ONCA256B95.001A7F77@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408225507.00ace4c0@mail.verizon.net>

Yes, Dear Hyphen, it's definitely Monday!!!  ;-)

At 12:51 PM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Dear Folks -
>
>Charles replied to Laning thus:
> >>We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including
> >>ironing.  Every service a hotel provides, basically.
> >
> >Even hookers?
>
>Certainly! Just the things you need to grab on to when you perform an EVA
>and the ship decides to lurch suddenly.
>
>...or did I misunderstand your point?
>
>;-)  ;-)  ;-)
>
>(It really _must_ be Monday.)
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 00:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Mon Apr  8 23:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F210WagewMS59IvqvIy000169c3@hotmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn writes:

> > That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
> > because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than
> > the AK-47 or even the M14.
>
>In that case the M14 must be considerably less accurate than the old M1
>Garand its based on. IMER the M1 is at least as accurate as the M16A1,
>assuming similar conditions.

I think the M14 and M1, as weapons platforms, probably get pretty similar 
accuracy.  After all, the M14 is clearly derived from the M1.  The M14 is 
probably more accurate solely because the 308 round is more accurate than 
30-06.  This has something to do with the case being squatter and the shape 
of the case shoulder.  The M14 over time replaced the M1 as the premier 
firearm in military matches.  The M14 is now being replaced in that role by 
the M16, which is shooting better than either of its predecessors.  These 
match rifles have a number of upgrades from standard rifles, so that 
probably does not tell you that much about issue rifles.  The Army's minimum 
standard for accuracy is pretty lousy (4 MOA IIRC), so any of these rifles 
would probably fit that bill.

But as to your basic point that an M1 gets better accuracy than an M16A1, as 
far as issue weapons I would not be too sure.  The M16's action probably 
gives better accuracy.  Also, the M1's wood stock is not so great when you 
do a lot of firing.  The M16 has much less recoil.  On the other hand, the 
M16 is lousy if you are using a sling (because the sling connects to the 
front sight which is connected directly to the barrel) and it has a very 
thin barrel.  I bet the M16A2, with the heavy barrel, does better than the 
Garand though.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 00:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon Apr  8 23:27:08 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
References: <20020407.214938.-3991.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CB28B2B.81ED4C11@attbi.com>


generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> I assumed the 3 meters was deck to deck, allowing the extra space for
> conduits, ducts, overhead lighting,, pipes, electrical stuff, grav plates
> etc.
> 
 
But, that is all engineering space..

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 00:54:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Apr  8 23:54:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408123225.02823ec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408123225.02823ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8d83e5696fb@[198.123.22.190]>

At 1:36 PM -0400 4/8/02, laning wrote:
>Leonard Erickson discusses the antihijacker issue:
>>  > If nobody else does, then
>>>  insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security
>>>  measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time
>>>  and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.
>>
>>You are considering *installation* costs. I'm talking about the costs
>>in time wasted due to "overly stringent" security getting in the way.
>>
>>Oil tankers are expensive too. So are modern freighters. And *safety*
>>gear on them that "gets in the way" is routinely bypassed by crews,
>>never mind "security" gear.
>
>I wholeheartedly agree that personnel will tend to ignore things 
>that are inconvenient.  That's partly why insurers and lenders and 
>regulators at starports will be the ones insisting on enforcement 
>through certifications and inspections.  They won't expect ship 
>crews to take care of it on their own.

While I haven't followed the thread far enough to follow all the 
issues, I think there is a point to be made here.  One can't just 
assume insurance company will force any security measure you can 
think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be unpopular and, 
unless the savings in costs is _significant_, there won't be enough 
of a change in premiums to compensate.

-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 01:09:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 00:09:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F84ekOtJI52I0jYn6hx00003845@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>Anyway, I was told by the people who
>randomly checked the ammo that reached the front-line troops that we were
>typically getting 2100 fps, and it wasn't very unusual to get under 1800
>fps.

Were you getting a lot of failures to feed?  I am just wondering if such 
weak ammo could get the action to cycle reliably.

>How is this data verified or acquired, please?  I'm just curious to get
>another data point, not being accusatory or argumentative.  :->

This is from my rifle with a chronograph, and recent surplus ammo (1999-2001 
production for LC; I think the WCC was older, like 1991).

>Muzzle velocity for government ammo for the A1 was just over 2700 fps.

While there may have been some bad ammo, I do not think the spec for the 55 
grain ammo (M193) has changed since the round was first standardized.  It 
has always required a muzzle velocity of 3250 fps, measured 15' from the 
muzzle (from TM 43-0001-27).  The new 62 grain round (M1855) is supposed to 
go 3025 fps, measured 78 feet from the muzzle.

>I don't think it's a stupid idea to take a varmint rifle and turn it
>into a combat rifle.  It does have its advantages.  But I'd feel more
>sanguine about firing a 130-, 150- or 180-grain bullet from something
>chambered for 7.62 NATO or .303 British than a 55-grain bullet.  Like
>most other things, it's a combination of trade offs because you can't
>have one thing that will give you all the attributes you wish for.

Interestingly, most modern militaries are adopting 5.56 rifles and dropping 
the bigger calibers.  This is even true of weapons like the FAL which could, 
with some work, be made as flexible as far as mounting optics and 
accessories as the M16A4 or M4.

It makes me wonder a little if the Army decided that infantry are not that 
effecive anyway, so it might as well give the boys something that shoots 
lightweight ammo.  On the other hand, maybe they think 5.56 is enough, 
because if someone has a hole in them, even a .22 hole, they will be out of 
action.  Whichever is the case, most other armies seem to be buying into it 
too.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 01:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Tue Apr  9 00:56:08 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
In-Reply-To: <200204082055.DQH04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204091051290.24305-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >Please enlighten me.  PCCS?
> Phoenix Command Combat System, 4th Edition, with all 
> supplements. A product of the now defunct Leading Edge Games.
> The advanced small arms damage tables from the game came from 
> Computerman, a model you may recall.  Now try that by hand 
> instead of by computer.

You might consider using a laptop. Couple of people known to me have held
Vietnam and the Finnish Winter War scenarios here in some rpg cons here in
Finland, and the game went very smoothly, even with players who didn't
know the system. 

Sadly, the Vietnam campaign's www pages are in Finnish, and I can't find
the Winter War pages.

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 01:59:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue Apr  9 00:59:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

A gaming system where everybody contributes rules like
linux? That's a great idea. Wish I could program.
People are still gonna argue rules and realism though.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 02:41:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue Apr  9 01:41:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Grav Kitchens (MT)
In-Reply-To: <7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEPLEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of MurfNMurf@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2002 12:41 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Grav Kitchens


 I'd like to see that design :)
 -Ken-

Your wish...

G-M90 CLASS GRAV FIELD KITCHEN
It is a well known fact that all armies march on their stomachs, and it was
with this in mind that the Terrans introduced the G-M90 grav field kitchen
to provide hot meals for troops in the field.

CraftID: Grav Field Kitchen, TL13, Cr1,075,680
Hull: 5/12, Disp=5, Config=4SL, Armour=4F,
Unloaded=20.587 tons, Loaded=36.495 tons
Power: 1/2, Fusion=12Mw, Duration=30/90
Loco: 1/2, StdGravThrust=54tons, NOE=170kph, Cruise=432kph,
Top=576kph, MaxAccel=0.48G
Commo: Radio=Regional
Sensors: PassiveEMS=VDistant, ActiveEMS=Distant,
Environment, Radiation, Headlights x2,
ActObjScan=Form, ActObjPin=Form, PasObjScan=Form,
Off/Def: Hardpoints=1
Control: Computer=0bis x2, Panel=holographic link x1,
Special=headsUp display x1,
Environ=basic env, basic ls,extend ls, grav plates,
inertial compensators
Accom: Crew=3, (Driver/Cook=1, Cooks=2), Seats=roomy x4
Other: Cargo=14.9 kliters, Fuel=14.4 kliters
1 Air Lock,
1 10kl Field Kitchen Module,
No Fuel Purification Plant,
ObjSize=Small, No Fuel Scoops,
EmLevel=Moderate
Comments: Field Kitchen Module taken from Striker 1.
Construction Time=24 weeks single, 20 weeks multiple


Antony



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 02:58:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 01:58:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020409053141.28337.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

James Ramsay wrotw :

> The thing I find strange about the movie is that
> Apone doesn't comment on Drake and Vasquez taking
> point even though they have "supposedly" disarmed
> weapons!

That's because he _knew_ they'd still have rounds.
But couldn't officially know it, if you know what I mean.

> The funny
> thing is Aliens fans have bigger debates over the
> whole "they don't show up on infrared issues" (If the
> aliens temp is low enough not to show up on infrared,
> they wouldn't be able to move fast)

This has always been simple to explain.
They didn't show up on infrared _in_that_scene_ because they
are the same temperature as the nest materiel they are hiding
in, which is not cold itself. (Look at the steam and the
location)

The person who yelled it was obviously not thinking straight at
the time or they'd have realized this fact.

At other times, no-one needs to look for them on IR because they
are in the open or in situations where IR is not the best means
of detection.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 02:59:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 01:59:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Douglas Berry wrote :
> At 11:08 AM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>
> >One word. F*#&ing officers.
> >Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
> >officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
> >enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
> >interview on the DVD).
>
> OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was
> inexperienced, that's all.

As can be seen the fact he had never done a live drop.

Note that The Company probably pulled strings to _ensure_ that an
inexperienced officer was sent, so he was more likley to accede
to the company man's wishes.

An experienced officer would likely have told the company man to
go fuck himself, and probably have shot the guy on the spot once
his treachery with Ripley and Newt was exposed.

"Treason in the face of the enemy while under martial law" or
some such charge would do, with death as a summary judgement. As
highest ranking military officer on a colony under martial law, I
suspect he would effectively have the powers of God, even if the
Company was pretty powerful back home, it would be setting a
dangerous precedent
for the Colonial Marines to have _not_ backed up their man on the
spot, and the Company could just claim their man had gone rogue.

> All he knew was the
> book, and suddenly the book went out the window
> as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

Actually, the way the marines fell apart when they were first
jumped makes me think the rest of them weren't that experienced
either, just gung ho. And with Apone down in the first few
seconds, probably the only real experience other than Ripley's
was gone.

> Win the shit came down, he covered his people,

However it was Ripley that went back to get the people, Gorman
was still dithering when she took over the APC and drove it into
the hive.

> and went back to get Vasquez, then sacrificed himself
> to slow the enemy down.  In my view, those are the
> kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.

Yeah, I haver to agree with Doug here.

If "Aliens" was an anti-Vietnam film it was the worst one ever
made.
Especially as the US was out of Vietnam well before the movie was
even started.

The person who deserves the biggest rocket up the arse in
"Aliens" (military-wise) is the pilot of the dropship.
Though she was originally told that the LZ had been secured,
she'd never make a Traveller-PC group.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 03:00:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 02:00:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8d83e5696fb@[198.123.22.190]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :
> While I haven't followed the thread far enough to
> follow all the  issues, I think there is a point
> to be made here.  One can't just assume insurance
> company will force any security measure you can
> think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be
> unpopular and, unless the savings in costs is
> _significant_, there  won't be enough
> of a change in premiums to compensate.

The insurance comany won't change it's premiums.

There will just be a clause in the contract, similar to the one
that exists with most vehicle insurance now, that if your vehicle
was not warranted at the time of the accident, or it was being
driven by an unlicensed driver, they won't pay out.

They won't even bother inspecting (or telling you about it) until
_after_ you make the claim. Then they will ask you for your
warrant and masters ticket, and if you can't produce them they
will refuse to pay out.

The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
starport will do it (for important safety and financial reasons,
would you want an unwarranted vehicle approaching an extremely
expensve space station?), there won't be any real choice except
for the captains to take the risk of not doing it and not go to
the better starports

There may even be legal requirenments in many systems.
Unwarranted ships will be told to leave immediately, or stay
stationary until they are warranted.

Given the way the Imperium operates it is unlikely the Imperium
itself will have or enforce such rules, except at the request of
member worlds if a merchant is being a bit recalcitrant, However
the Imperium may set the standards that the member worlds
legislate as they desire.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 03:45:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 02:45:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Greetings dear hearts.

Insurance companies have been in the business of ripping clients off since 
they began, and I doubt they'll change...

However, they do often state preconditions, as well as having 'weasel' 
clauses in the contract. When I took out household insurance a while back 
I had to upgrade the front door lock and they wanted me to get a burglar 
alarm until I told them I kept a Doberman pinscher :-)

So I can see there being a whole raft of terms & conditions if you want 
'3rd party, fire & theft' insurance on your starship: -

Anti-hijack program - they probably insist on you using one provided or 
one that is demonstrably at least as good.

Access control to the vessel of a given standard... they'll ask what you 
have and/or specify minimum requirements.

Qualifications required of operators (master's ticket, etc.)

Restrictions on where you are supposed to go - e.g., "Company must be 
informed prior to visits to any system classified as an Amber Zone. 
Insurance not valid for any travel in systems classified as Red Zone."

Oh dear, if I'm not careful I'll end up writing an insurance contract here 
*grin*

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 03:53:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 02:53:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name things
Message-ID: <200204090952.DRH01545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hughes, Michael" says
<snip section on making up names>

At the end of the movie "She's Having A Baby" several other 
famous types each take a turn at naming babies.  Dan Akroyd 
comes up with three names, all suitable for various campaign 
characters rather than babies.  Of course, even though I had 
watched the movie, I never noticed this until I played in a 
D&D campaign where the three arch enemies had these names - 
and they were led by the evil Nargausius.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 04:48:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue Apr  9 03:48:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name
 thin gs
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020409104751.6e9d13fd.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Hughes, Michael wrote:
> Star Wars Name =
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where
you
> were born. 

Jenry Hakar

The first name is very amusing... look at my e-mail address and see why.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 05:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue Apr  9 04:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B73@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Pitt [mailto:frankie@mundens.gen.nz]
> Sent: 09 April 2002 10:08
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?
> 
> 
> David P. Summers wrote :
> > While I haven't followed the thread far enough to
> > follow all the  issues, I think there is a point
> > to be made here.  One can't just assume insurance
> > company will force any security measure you can
> > think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be
> > unpopular and, unless the savings in costs is
> > _significant_, there  won't be enough
> > of a change in premiums to compensate.
> 
> The insurance comany won't change it's premiums.
> 
> There will just be a clause in the contract, similar to the one
> that exists with most vehicle insurance now, that if your vehicle
> was not warranted at the time of the accident, or it was being
> driven by an unlicensed driver, they won't pay out.
> 
> They won't even bother inspecting (or telling you about it) until
> _after_ you make the claim. Then they will ask you for your
> warrant and masters ticket, and if you can't produce them they
> will refuse to pay out.
> 
> The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
> required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
> may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
> starport will do it (for important safety and financial reasons,
> would you want an unwarranted vehicle approaching an extremely
> expensve space station?), there won't be any real choice except
> for the captains to take the risk of not doing it and not go to
> the better starports

Ok, how long does this Warrant last? Is it similar to the MOT in the UK
for cars? i.e. an annual check of the vehicles condition and compliance
with regulations?

If so, most crews will disable the hindering security aspects (if these
are even covered by the warranting procedure) until such time as they
are approaching annual maintenance and warranting, re-enable them just
befor inspection, then promptly disable them again after certification.

And in any case, a car can be insured against theft even if it doesn't
have steering locks, a car alarm and an immobiliser fitted, so why can't
a starship? Yes, your premium will be a tad higher, but unless theft of
starships is commonplace stringent security won't be a *requirement* of
insurance.

There is a world of difference between a safe ship and a secure one, and
all STC will be concerned with is safety.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 07:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr  9 06:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Roseberrys used HG2 ship lot #2
Message-ID: <3CB2EA6B.7D7D51B5@mail.cswnet.com>

Here are more beauties on the tarmac...
We're slashing prices; everything must go!
Discounts up to 20%
Buy now and get your choice of a Penguin, Tribble, Cabit, or Jackalope
as gift**

**not available in Solomani Rim outlets

Iye-Rethar class auxiliary tender
QT-A1011B2-000000-00007-0  Mcr320.29 std. 1000dt
       one battery          Crew=22       TL=8
Fuel=10 EP=10 Agile=1 Cargo=520 Tankage Fuel=200
Fuel Scoops and Purification plant
Crew=22 [11 officers with 11-4dt staterooms; 11 ratings-with 2dt
rooms]  Lowberths=20 100dt missle bay=1

Aries Eagle class missle boat
MB-A1022B2-700000-00007-0  Mcr940.35 std. 1000dt
one battery                Crew=18  TL=7
Fuel=100 EP=20 Agile=2 Fuel Scoops
Auxiliary 1G manuever drive=1 Auxiliary 1pn power plant=1
Auxiliary Mod 1 fib computer=1 Auxiliary bridge=1
Crew=18 [officers=8, ratings=10.] Marines=31 Frozen watch=42
4dt staterooms=2 [1 each for ship and marine commander]
2dt staterooms=49 [1 passenger possible]
100dt missle bay=1

Ether class Battleship*
BB-A1017B2-800000-00600-0  Mcr1466.54std. 1000dt
one battery                Crew=21  TL=8
Fuel=140 EP=70 Agile=1 Fuel scoops and Purification Plant
Crew=21[11 officers, 10 ratings]
4dt staterooms=11 2dt staterooms=10
Cargo=2 100dt partical accelerator bay=1
*At TL8, this is a Battleship. At TL15, this is a target craft.

Reill class patrol cruiser
PC-A1267E2-130000-00008-0  Mcr1158.284 std. 1100dt
            3         1    Crew=26 Marines=21 TL=11
            3         1
Fuel=297 [jump fuel=220, plant fuel=77] EP=77 Agile=6
1-1dt triple sandcaster turret 1-100dt missle bay
Crew=26[13 officers, 13 ratings] Marines=21
4dt staterooms=13 2dt staterooms=34 Cargo=26

Stacker class repair tug
QT-1204721-000000-20000-0 Mcr94.907 std 100dt
one battery--pulse lasers  Crew=5  TL12
Fuel=7 EP=7 Agile=4 Cargo=3.4dt Fuel scoops and purification plant
1-1dt tripple pulse laser turret
1-10dt machine shop 1-6dt electronics shop
special umbilical docking tube [.025Mcr, 2.6dt]
Crew=5[1 pilot, 1 engineer, 1 gunner/engineer, 2 engineer/maintenance].
5-2dt staterooms.

Plop designs historical series:  The CAM-117 gunship
from Spacecraft 2000-2100AD, by Stewart Cowley, pub 1978, by
Chartwell Books. ISBN 0-89009-211-7

CAM 117 gunship
aka 'the last of the dreadnaughts', 'nuclear kites'
BG-A405AB2-300000-40602-0 Mcr763.09 std. 1900dt
                  1 1 7    Crew=45  TL=8
                  1 1 7
Fuel=190 EP=190 Agility=5 Fuel scoops and Purification Plant
1-100 ton wps bay carrying "One NA 117 Particle Accelerator"
"6 various laser guns": 2-1dt triple beam laser turrets
"various nuclear missile launchers": 7-1dt triple missile racks
Crew=45[11 officers, 34 ratings] 4dt staterooms=45 Cargo=39

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 07:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 06:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
References: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <055501c1dfca$cb684280$1f9e15ac@warrior>

I recall somebody telling me that another problem with these weapons was the
lightness of the projectile ment that wind had a much more drastic effect on
accuracy...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks


> on 4/8/02 2:21 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> >
> > I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).  A
65 gram
> > projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.
>
>
> I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.
>
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 07:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Tue Apr  9 06:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <F2713iCVCd2FvOJyADg0000a126@hotmail.com>

In (Digest) Mail, Matt Bond asked...
<SNIP>
Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to eva while in space to do some 
kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking 
mechanism.  How do I get back in?
</SNIP>

Um, "Open the pod bay doors, Hal"?

Jeff.

"Will the nightmares soon give way to dreaming that she is here with me, 
here in the glow of the night..."

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 08:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 07:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here namethin gs
Message-ID: <200204091452.DRR04317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
>for first name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
>town where you were born. 
>
John Kwon, Chapel Hill

Johon Swcha
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 09:26:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue Apr  9 08:26:07 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here
 namethin gs
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B74@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
> Sent: 09 April 2002 15:53
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn
> how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here namethin gs
> 
> 
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
> >for first name
> > 
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
> >town where you were born. 
> >
> John Kwon, Chapel Hill
> 
> Johon Swcha

I think you will find it is Johkw Schwa...


Matt
(a.k.a. Matbo Pelon)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 10:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr  9 09:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <F73cFZ4RgPRCjOuF1Qp000016f2@hotmail.com>

From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>

     "And I apologize for sounding like a jerk.  I sometimes forget how 
stuff will appear when someone else reads it."

Mr. West,

     Why there's nothing to apologize for, sir!  Your post was perfectly 
alright, I didn't feel it to be anything but correct in both form and tone.
     I was upset with myself over ladling out bad information as if it were 
gospel.  I should have known better and attached an "IIRC" to the statement.

     "That is a pretty reasonable idea.  I figure they would be jumping in 
with a fleet, not just a squadron.  They probably have a couple of "probe" 
ships and multiple ships that can deliver the meson trigger."

     Yes, deployed within a fleet.  That's why the AM 8 talk of the Special 
Branch doesn't sit quite well with me.  It sort of implies that the Darrians 
can zip in with a few vessels and get the job done.
     Leaving probe delivery aside for the moment, look at the meson beam 
requirements.  If you're going to trigger the tungsten plume AND get away, 
you must do it from outside the star's 100D limit.  For a star the size of 
Sol, that's nearly 1 AU.  What sort of beam projector is going to be 
required for that kind of range?  Never mind the accuracy we'll need!
     Spinal mounts don't have that kind of range, at least I assume they 
don't.  Meson gun range is determined by the speed of the particles, you 
whip them up to some insanely relativistic speed in order to delay their 
decay.  When their slowed clocks finally tick down, they go "boom", 
hopefully near the point in space where you want them to do so.
     In the case of the Star Trigger, we'll be attempting to time that decay 
to a point ~1 AU away from our vessels.  The TL 16 Darrians were able to do 
it from Darrian and a GG moon, but the vessels carrying this equipment wil 
be very, very, VERY specialized.  I don't think you'll be able to flip a 
switch and modify a meson gun spinal mount to do the job.

     "I seriously doubt the Darrians would destroy their own worlds to 
prevent capture.  The only reason I can think of for them to intentionally 
use the Star Trigger in one of their own systems is if they believed they 
could nail a major fleet, then come back in to fix the system."

     "They would, however, without hesitation do a deep penetration to wipe 
out an enemy world.  Or several."

     I see the problem with using the Trigger against the Zhos (or 
Imperials) as one of strategic depth.  How many Triggers would take to 
dissuade a very large opponent from continuing his assault on you?  How 
thick a "belt" of Trigger flare systems would it take to stop an offensive?  
Or a war?  Let's take a Darrian-Imperial war for example, would the Darrians 
have to Trigger selected stars as far back as Corridor to keep the Imerium 
at bay?
     Of course, a single Trigger can effect more than one world.  The 
"orignal" deployment did effect worlds as far away from Darrain as Entrope 
and Winston, but at a propogation of <light speed.  It took years for 
results to travel beyond the intial system, not that the warning helped any.
     Deploying many Trigger's at once could present your attacker with an 
unimaginable catastrophe in several systems, and a multi-parsec belt of 
incrediable EM damge that will take decades to develop, but would that cause 
him to cease his assaults or would he be more likely to visit genocide upon 
you and yours?

     "I imagine the Darrians would be pragmatic enough to have a mass 
"suicide" to keep the secret.  I figure some of those in the "suicide" 
really did commit real suicide after making sure the "suicides" took place."

     Omigosh!  Someone who can think nearly as "evilly" as me!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 10:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 09:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B73@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409115948.027e20f0@pop.wizard.net>

Matt Bond:
>Ok, how long does this Warrant last? Is it similar to the MOT in the UK
>for cars? i.e. an annual check of the vehicles condition and compliance
>with regulations?
>
>If so, most crews will disable the hindering security aspects (if these
>are even covered by the warranting procedure) until such time as they
>are approaching annual maintenance and warranting, re-enable them just
>befor inspection, then promptly disable them again after certification.

I think there will be annual inspections at the time of annual maintenance, 
and also inspections at every port that is Class A or B and probably C.

Not every safety feature will be vigorously disabled by crews.  The locks 
between engineering and passenger spaces are quite convenient.  They keep 
passengers from turning up in annoying places and bothering you.  And all 
the crewman has to do is keep their keycard in their pocket and key in four 
numbers on the crypto pad to pass through the lock.  The boat pilot will 
similarly prefer locks that keep wandering crew or passengers from visiting 
"his" boat just out of curiosity and desire for more elbow room.  In less 
normal situations, access to the ship's boats will become universal (for 
abandon ship situations) or more difficult (for hijacking situations).  The 
chief features of the antihijacking security will be to prevent 
unauthorized personnel from gaining access to engineering and other 
crew-only spaces like the bridge, and to prevent unauthorized personnel 
from using control stations.

Electronic log files will be kept on every passage through a hatchway or 
use of a control station.  When visiting better ports, copies of those log 
files will be beamed to whoever keeps such records.  If locks are disabled, 
no event will be logged each time the hatch or control station is used, and 
it will be pretty obvious as soon as someone inspects the logs.

Also, if locks or other measures are disabled, then the insurance 
investigator will be doing her best to elicit confessions or accusations 
from each individual member of the crew.  The crewman who disables a lock, 
and the ship's officer who lets it remain disabled will have to think twice 
about whether they really want personal legal responsibility for the loss 
of the ship that's being investigated.  Their employment contracts have 
explicit language designed to ensure that a crewman or officer who is 
culpable in a loss is subject to heavy, heavy penalties.

The risk just won't be worth taking, especially since the chief benefit of 
disabling locks is not having to punch in four numbers each time the 
individual passes through a hatchway between where they spend most of their 
work day and where they rarely venture anyway.  All it takes is one or two 
honest crewmen to decide to turn them in and they are in big, big trouble.

The level of personal inconvenience to crew and officers shouldn't be 
overrated.  Nor should the level of security most people are willing to put 
up with.  I don't know about other major U.S. cities, but here in the 
Washington area most places of employment make people go past security to 
enter and exit their building, there are roving security guards, all 
packages are subject to inspection, people have to physically log in and 
out of the building outside of normal work hours, and there are frequently 
a few doors within the company's area that are also secure (usually they 
admit only personnel whose magnetically coded employee ID badge is on the 
authorized list in a central computer).  The main everyday features of 
starship security will not be any more annoying than that.  Getting caught 
violating ship's security will be dramatically more undesirable than 
violating office security normally is.


>And in any case, a car can be insured against theft even if it doesn't
>have steering locks, a car alarm and an immobiliser fitted, so why can't
>a starship? Yes, your premium will be a tad higher, but unless theft of
>starships is commonplace stringent security won't be a *requirement* of
>insurance.

You mean unless theft of starships is expensive to the insurance 
company.  Since the insurer tends to be heavily, heavily invested at all 
times in order to maximize profits, having to pay out a mere Cr40,000,000 
will be a major inconvenience and probably affect that quarter's bottom 
line.  Rate schedules will reflect this.

Theft insurance riders for car insurance are usually relatively low to 
begin with, so the difference between $8/month and $14/month may not 
motivate many people to take the extra measures you mention.  Which 
measures are over and above the door locks and steering lock that are 
operated by your car keys.  But rates go up significantly or even 
dramatically when you have a very expensive car, a car model that is very 
popular among thieves, or are within an easy drive of the Mexican border 
(for those of us in the States).  Even if the theft insurance is a very 
small percentage of the ship's value, it will be a very large amount of 
ship's expense each month.  And even more troublesome in Imperial border 
regions near places like the Vargr Extents or systems not belonging to any 
organized empire.

A fundamental principle of property insurance is to reimburse the insured 
100% of the value of their loss.  If the insured has nothing to lose then 
loss claims become incredibly frequent.  If the insured has to carry a 
signicant portion of the loss of a spaceship, you can bet that ships' 
owners will go to some trouble to make sure it never happens to them.

(Thus, a good bounty hunter scenario for recovering stolen ships would be a 
ship's owner who has incurred a loss and already been reimbursed the 90% of 
fair market value that's as much as she'll ever get hires bounty hunters to 
recover the ship.  Payment will be to split all profits from selling the 
recovered ship, after first making up the 10% that wasn't insured and then 
covering all expenses incurred.  If the ship can still be sold for its 
original fair market value, that's a huge profit.)


>There is a world of difference between a safe ship and a secure one, and
>all STC will be concerned with is safety.

Not sure who STC is.  Starport Authorities and local governments will be 
concerned that terrorists or wackos don't hijack a ship and crash it into 
something (the high port, the duke's residence, the financial district of 
the most important city) either intentionally or through ineptness.  That's 
part of safety.  Another part of safety is ensuring the ship is kept in 
good operating order and run in a responsible manner, and security logs 
will be helpful in determining that (are watches being stood?  are 
equipment inspections being kept up with?  do unauthorized personnel get 
access to equipment or controls?).  Lenders and insurers will be concerned 
to prevent ship loss from the investment point of view.  Sector and 
subsector dukes may have additional concerns, which might be felt through 
increased Starport Authority regulations, or through influencing local 
governments to implement other regulations.

I imagine that ship owners may put a clause in crew employment contracts 
that actually penalizes crewmen X months of salary if the ship is 
stolen.  All the crew and officers, not just whoever is found 
culpable.  The ship owners are motivated to prevent theft because of 
financial incentive.  They'll seek to put crew and officers in the same 
position.

(Hmm, one racket would be owner and crew cooperating to make the ship seem 
to be stolen, get their 80% or 90% from the insurance company, then the 
crew goes off as bounty hunters and "recovers" the ship from the "thieves", 
they sell the ship for nearly it's fair market value, and they've just made 
a profit of circa 80% of the value of a ship.  This will be an easy racket 
unless law enforcement and insurers are doing thorough jobs at every step 
of the way.  And even then it will still occasionally happen.)

I'm going to file this email separately for its adventure seeds and routine 
starship operations information.  Thank you for getting me to write it.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 11:19:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 10:19:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F210WagewMS59IvqvIy000169c3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409130304.027d16f0@pop.wizard.net>

Sam D on comparative accuracies between different military rifles:
>But as to your basic point that an M1 gets better accuracy than an M16A1, 
>as far as issue weapons I would not be too sure.  The M16's action 
>probably gives better accuracy.  Also, the M1's wood stock is not so great 
>when you do a lot of firing.  The M16 has much less recoil.  On the other 
>hand, the M16 is lousy if you are using a sling (because the sling 
>connects to the front sight which is connected directly to the barrel) and 
>it has a very thin barrel.  I bet the M16A2, with the heavy barrel, does 
>better than the Garand though.

I'd be very surprised if the M-16 shoots better on the 800-yard or -meter 
line (800 is not part of normal rifle qual, just competitions).  Even the 
M-16A2, with slightly heavier barrel, much better twist to the rifling for 
long-range accuracy, and slightly different load should be poorer than the 
M-14.  Oh, and let's not forget the A2's butt being three-eighths of an 
inch longer than the A1.  Skilled shooters can fire the 14 from the 1,000 
and that's something that's pretty ridiculous with the 16.  Not having 
fired the M-14, I can't speak to things like the furniture or the sight 
arrangement.  I imagine differences between the sight designs can make a 
pretty big difference to performance on the range.

I understand that current M-16s in U.S. service have these (IMHO 
ridiculous) three-round-burst limiters.  Which makes the trigger action a 
little bit different between first, second, and third shots of each 
burst.  The range coaches who I talked to about it said they were advising 
people to hand load each round during slow fire.  In between each round 
they would dry fire the weapon twice.  That way, you were always at the 
same point in the three-round sequence when you actually fired a 
round.  The one time I qualified with the A2 instead of A1, I forgot about 
that little routine.  The A2 still improved my score by about 5 points.  I 
also did a full course of fire not for qualification with the A2 and saw my 
score jump up about the same.  Although, come to think of it, I was less 
than satisfied with my groups from the 500-yard line.  Doh.  Only took 
fifteen years to figure that one out.  :->

ObTrav.  Something the referee in my current PBEM game does do.  Until a 
character has spent time on a range "sighting in" aka "zeroing" a new 
weapon, she should get accuracy penalties when using it, although the 
penalty should be neglible at short range.  A skilled character who takes 
several hours to sight in may be eligible for an accuracy bonus.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 11:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 10:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F84ekOtJI52I0jYn6hx00003845@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409132133.027d0ec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 07:08 AM 4/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>laning writes:
>
>>Anyway, I was told by the people who
>>randomly checked the ammo that reached the front-line troops that we were
>>typically getting 2100 fps, and it wasn't very unusual to get under 1800
>>fps.
>
>Were you getting a lot of failures to feed?  I am just wondering if such 
>weak ammo could get the action to cycle reliably.

Nope.  Well, define 'a lot'.  I've had them occur on the rifle range.  Less 
than say five(?) times.  It was a lot of years ago now to be trying to 
remember this.


>>How is this data verified or acquired, please?  I'm just curious to get
>>another data point, not being accusatory or argumentative.  :->
>
>This is from my rifle with a chronograph, and recent surplus ammo 
>(1999-2001 production for LC; I think the WCC was older, like 1991).
>
>>Muzzle velocity for government ammo for the A1 was just over 2700 fps.
>
>While there may have been some bad ammo, I do not think the spec for the 
>55 grain ammo (M193) has changed since the round was first 
>standardized.  It has always required a muzzle velocity of 3250 fps, 
>measured 15' from the muzzle (from TM 43-0001-27).  The new 62 grain round 
>(M1855) is supposed to go 3025 fps, measured 78 feet from the muzzle.

That 2700 figure was what our manuals from boot camp taught us and was a 
very frequent question during inspections in boot camp and afterwards.  I 
want to 2,710 but I still can't remember the precise figure.  And yeah, my 
1980 edition of 'Cartridges of the World' thinks M193 ammo had a 3,250 
muzzle velocity also.  Interesting that the Marine Corps _officially_ 
taught us it was a much lower number.  One explanation is that Marine Corps 
was continuing to be forced to accept ammo lots that it considered 
substandard at 2,710 while the contractor continued to insist he was 
delivering 3,250 and the dispute was dragging on during my tenure in the Corps.

I think when the manufacturer sells 'surplus' ammo they know precisely 
whether a shipment will be delivered to commercial sellers or to the 
government.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.


>Interestingly, most modern militaries are adopting 5.56 rifles and 
>dropping the bigger calibers.  This is even true of weapons like the FAL 
>which could, with some work, be made as flexible as far as mounting optics 
>and accessories as the M16A4 or M4.
>
>It makes me wonder a little if the Army decided that infantry are not that 
>effecive anyway, so it might as well give the boys something that shoots 
>lightweight ammo.  On the other hand, maybe they think 5.56 is enough, 
>because if someone has a hole in them, even a .22 hole, they will be out 
>of action.  Whichever is the case, most other armies seem to be buying 
>into it too.

Yes, both of your suggestions make a lot of sense in light of what the 
popular wisdom is at the government think tanks that largely influence 
these decisions.  "Aimed fire is no more effective than unaimed fire in 
battlefield situations."  and "An army loses more than three soldiers from 
action each time someone is wounded, in order to medevac and care for that 
wounded soldier."

In fact, with that last popular nugget of wisdom, one can easily imagine 
the paper pushers deciding it's _better_ to have a rifle that results in 
more wounds than kills, and stopping power isn't even part of the 
decision.  It's a Dilbert world.

My ObTrav here is some planetary militaries opting for patently 
underpowered weapons on the theory that they should always be trying to 
inflict a wound and never a kill.  Take it near a ridiculous 
extreme.  Perhaps the player characters are in a mercenary unit that goes 
up against them, and after getting some battle experience against them, can 
only muse wonderingly and pity the poor bastards they're fighting 
against.  Or the player characters are in a city that is under attack by 
irregular forces much like the Boers from 1902 (people grew up with 
shooting and take weapon deadliness very seriously).  They feel secure 
enough, since the planetary government forces defending the city vastly 
outnumber the irregular and have much more sophisticated equipment 
besides.  Things grow tense as the irregulars' siege of the city gets 
tighter and tighter and the fighting starts coming in earshot of their 
hotel.  No vehicles, aircraft, or spacecraft are entering or leaving the 
city.  Rumors of war crimes being committed by ever more angry irregulars 
are growing.  (They're angry because their friends and family often they 
themselves are getting wounded.  They're _not_ spending three guys to take 
care of one wounded guy, because they're irregulars and don't have that 
kind of luxury.)

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 11:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Apr  9 10:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <200204091244.AA102170826@caddocourt.com>

>     Why there's nothing to apologize for, sir!  Your post was perfectly 
>alright, I didn't feel it to be anything but correct in both form and tone.

Oh good!  Thank you for clearing that up.

[ big snip ]
>     "They would, however, without hesitation do a deep penetration to wipe 
>out an enemy world.  Or several."
>
>     I see the problem with using the Trigger against the Zhos (or 
>Imperials) as one of strategic depth.  How many Triggers would take to 
>dissuade a very large opponent from continuing his assault on you?
> ... , but would that cause 
>him to cease his assaults or would he be more likely to visit genocide upon 
>you and yours?

I don't think the Darrians would be using the Star Trigger against the
Zhodani or the Imperium unless they already knew they were dead.  (Or
at least believed they were.)  As you mentioned before, there is nothing
it can do in its operation that will let the Darrians win such a war.

The whole point with the Zhodani (and, by extension, the Imperium) is
that its presence will prevent the war from ever starting in the first
place.  If you know that conquering the Darrians will be that expensive
(and the ramifications will continue to happen for years to come), you
have to really want the Darrians dead.  In other words, it escalates
the price of victory the Zhodani or Imperium would have to pay to
conquer the Darrians.  It can never win the war once it has started.

Of course, the other "fun" use of the Star Trigger is to intimidate
small (single system) governments like Nonym and (before they were an
Imperial client state) Garoo.

[ this is out of context, but ...]
>...  It took years for 
>results to travel beyond the intial system, not that the warning helped any.

The problem for the Darrians with the Maghiz was that there was only a
single shipyard and a single industrial base for the entire Confederation:
Darrian.  Once it was destroyed, the colonies had no way to get new ships
or technological goods.  They were all stuck.

The Imperial or Zhodani worlds would not be so hard hit since there would
always be other worlds to get stuff from.  They would be able to recover
in a much more quickly.

>     "I imagine the Darrians would be pragmatic enough to have a mass 
>"suicide" to keep the secret.  I figure some of those in the "suicide" 
>really did commit real suicide after making sure the "suicides" took place."
>
>     Omigosh!  Someone who can think nearly as "evilly" as me!

While I do probably fit that description, in this case I would call this
"evil", so much as purely pragmatic.

Another way to look at it is that the scientists literal bet their lives 
that they could create the Star Trigger.  They lost the bet and paid the
price, but at least had a measure of success.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 12:58 AM 4/9/02 -0700, you wrote:

>A gaming system where everybody contributes rules like
>linux? That's a great idea. Wish I could program.
>People are still gonna argue rules and realism though.

The latest edition of D&D made some hype about going to this back when it 
was announced and the public buzz about Linux was at its peak.  I don't 
really follow D&D and don't know where that stands now.

That suggestion does not have to have anything to do with programming the 
rules for computers.  Just writing game rules.  There needs to be a 
centralized repository for distributing the rules.  Web site, news group, 
mailing list.  The contributors to that forum need to early on establish 
some protocols that, if followed, keep contributors writing rule sections 
that are compatibility with the other rule sections.

For example, weapon design rules have to produce results within parameters 
that can be used any combat rules which in turn have to produce results 
that can be used with any rules describing character attributes, in terms 
of taking wounds and in terms of determining hits and damage.

There are some problems that make such a project very different from 
open-source programming of a Unix variant.

With programming, the contributions have to at least compile, and not crash 
when launched.  This filters out a lot underqualified contributors right 
there.  No such built-in logic checks preventing junk contributions of game 
rules.

There are a _lot_ more people who think they can design a game than there 
are people who think they can write a computer program.  Professional game 
designers are aware of this phenomenon and are also aware that a huge 
number of self proclaimed game designers don't have the least concept of 
some important fundamentals.

These first two things suggest that a huge percentage of junk 
contributions.  Much more so than with Linux.

Having a much larger population of people who think they can write rules 
could lead to vast numbers of rule contributions.  The sheer number can be 
a problem.  OTOH, if only a small percentage of contributions are good then 
it's a good thing there are so many contributions.  :->

There is less motivation for people to write rule contributions.  A 
successful Linux contribution is more likely to be personally gratifying, 
and is an extremely helpful thing to have on your resume and a useful 
professional growth experience in a well-paid profession.  A game rules 
contribution isn't very helpful to most persons' careers, and is arguably 
less gratifying in terms of fame or the satisfaction of being published.

The market for (war and roleplaying) games is orders of magnitude smaller 
than the market for computer software.

Establishing even the basic intent of the protocols is a puzzling 
task.  Linux had the advantage of imitating an established and mature 
operating system at its start.  Is the open source roleplaying game going 
to be highly cinematic and intended to keep player characters alive but 
slaughter....never mind.  I guess if the protocol cleverly defines how 
modules plug into each other, then you can let players mix and match 
modules themselves.

Bug reporting of Linux contributions can be automated and reports sent via 
the Internet easily.  Bug reporting of game designs is much more problematical.

That's what comes to mind.

It's got me to thinking about how to organize it though.  If I had more 
energy for the project, I'd go advertise in various Internet locations, 
magazines, game shops, and game conventions, set up the Web site and 
mailing list, etc.  Oh yeah, and if I had the money for those thing.  If 
enough people start participating, it might be a worthwhile experiment.

Not sure if I remember the original Linus Thorvald's post accurately enough 
to make this paraphrase work.  "Remember the good old days when real men 
wrote their own game rules?..."

One last thing.  I have some hesitation about whether it's a good idea to 
even trying to make open source game design work.  If it works, it isn't 
like stealing market share from Bill Gates.  It's making it impossible for 
guys like Loren Wiseman to earn a living in the industry.  We won't have 
any full time RPG designers anymore.  Which probably means a lot of 
important and good contributions to RPGs will never take place.  As a 
concept, open source game design seems like a desirable thing for gaming if 
it can be made to work.  The devil is in the details.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here
 name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <20020408234503.A15920@4dv.net>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
 <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409141814.027d2810@pop.wizard.net>

> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> > were born.

Lanpo Lannap.  I do not want to be called Lanpo.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Penguin Sighting
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409142253.027d5410@pop3.isicns.com>

'Shackleton' is being run in two parts on A&E repeatedly from this past 
weekend through April 19th.  Originally from Channel 4 in the U.K.

Numerous penguin sightings and references!

Including the classic when the photographer and Shackleton (played by 
Brannagh), are sorting through all their photographic negatives, made of glass.

Shackleton, in tired complaint:  "_Not_ another penguin."  Smash.

It even opens with a genuine, 100% pure, certified penguin joke, albeit in 
German and with no subtitles.  Most of us will have to pay close attention 
to eke out enough meaning to understand it.

Actual ObTravs should be abundantly obvious while viewing the show.  Chock 
full of adventure seeds and NPCs.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:17:35PM -0400
References: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:17:35PM -0400, laning wrote:
>
> I have some hesitation about whether it's a good idea to even trying
> to make open source game design work.  If it works, it isn't like
> stealing market share from Bill Gates.  It's making it impossible
> for guys like Loren Wiseman to earn a living in the industry.  We
> won't have any full time RPG designers anymore.  Which probably
> means a lot of important and good contributions to RPGs will never
> take place.

Open source and free software aren't about winning market share from
Bill Gates--they're about doing the right thing (or rather, doing a
more right thing).  I don't think that anyone will argue that it's
more moral to give away than the sell; in fact, I can think of few
schools of thought other than Objectivism which would so argue.  It's
not wrong to charge for one's labour (how else could one eat?)--but it
is better to give it away.

No-one should ever be forced to give away his labour--that would be
slavery.  But OTOH it must be recognised that if _I_ give mine away,
then _you_ will have a hard time selling yours.  But that is, to be
quite honest, your problem.


And a _lot_ of important and free contributions to RPGs took place
back in the old net days--ever read the Net.Books
<http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/byzantium/55/index2.htm#bluetroll>?
The vast majority were written by players for players.

In the software world, we've moved from proprietary everything, to
open standards for proprietary components on top of proprietary
platforms (POSIX when it first came about) to open standards for open
components on top of proprietary platforms (the GNU tools on top of
POSIX) to open standards for open components on top of open platforms
(Linux and *BSD).


Games are already fairly open.  Despite certain companies' wishful
thinking, a game is already an open standard, in that anyone can
create materials compatible with it.  That's a lot of what we're doing
here on the TML, isn't it?  And yet no-one claims that we are stealing
from Messrs. Miller or Wiseman, or that they are unable to make a
living.

Steffan O'Sullivan seems to have done well with FUDGE, a system which
is truly free (in the sense of freedom), yet which is also sold.
There's a lot of value added to a book vs. a computer file--much more
than that added to software by boxing it up vs. putting it online.

Even SJ Games have a free summary of the most basic of GURPS rules
available.  I imagine that sales of GURPS Basic Set are rather dwarfed
by sales of the myriads of supplements they put out.  And how many of
us would really stop buying RPGs just because they might be available
online?

Heck, I just spent more than $200 for HackMaster's Player's Guide,
DM's Guide and Vols. 1-VII of the Hacklopaedia, despite the fact that
I'll never play it in my life.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
While I was at University in Lancaster, the International Committee of
the Red Cross was having a campaign to stop other organisations using
the name 'red cross' and served a 'cease and desist' notice on the Red
Cross Inn in Lancaster.  The innkeeper turned round and pointed out that
the Red Cross Inn (founded, like most other pubs of the same name, by a
returning crusader) had been trading under that name for more than seven
hundred and fifty years, and politely asked how long they'd been using
it.  The ICRC retired hurt.                             --Simon Brooke

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:53:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:53:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3623@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Just read MJ Dougherty's short story at:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/Fiction/Dougherty/secrets.html

I can just SEE this as a short film :)  Could be done with a very moderate
budget, especially if Harry got changed to a human character instead of
Vargr.  Granted, that's half the fun of the piece, but it'd be a lot easier
& cheaper to do if he were human.

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Geoff @ MotionBlur)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3623@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOIEELCHAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>

Animate it =)

Geoff McDonald
President
MotionBlur Animation Ltd.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of DeGraff, Jesse
> Sent: April 9, 2002 11:52 AM
> To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
> Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
>
>
> Just read MJ Dougherty's short story at:
> http://www.travellerrpg.com/Fiction/Dougherty/secrets.html
>
> I can just SEE this as a short film :)  Could be done with a very moderate
> budget, especially if Harry got changed to a human character instead of
> Vargr.  Granted, that's half the fun of the piece, but it'd be a
> lot easier
> & cheaper to do if he were human.
>
> Jesse
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3624@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

You're the professional animator, I just do stills ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff @ MotionBlur [mailto:mcdonald@motionblur.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:55 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Oh dear....


Animate it =)

Geoff McDonald
President
MotionBlur Animation Ltd.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 09, 2002 03:51:13 PM
Message-ID: <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
> > an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
> > move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
> > suppression, they move toward each other much faster
> > than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
> > I wrong?
> 
> If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
> on each ion, then it is true.
> 
> If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
> to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
> factor of 10.

Under the premise of the inertial suppression idea, inertia
is defined as the electromagnetic drag caused by mass accellerating
through the zero point field (essentially due to subatomic interactions
with virtual photons). So, if this were the case, it might hold true
that the EM force would be reduced by inertial suppression, at least if
one assumes that EM forces are transferred via virtual photons, sort of
like the way waves on the ocean are transferred through the water
molecules making up the waves (you physicists on the list can probably
laugh at this statement... I'm really showing my ignorance here). Anyway,
off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to make this
work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the square-root of the
inertial suppression factor. If we make that handwave, which is
certainly a god-being-nice type to rule to make, then I'd imagine
that we've got gravity & EM both covered. However, if anyone can
provide a counterexample, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Also, there's still the weak and strong forces to think about. Since
weak is purportedly linked to EM, one would expect some sort of similar
square-root drop off. As for the strong force, I have no idea. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F107T456UnHAaaz7EjQ000157ce@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>I'd be very surprised if the M-16 shoots better on the 800-yard or -meter
>line (800 is not part of normal rifle qual, just competitions).>Even the
>M-16A2, with slightly heavier barrel, much better twist to the rifling for
>long-range accuracy, and slightly different load should be poorer than the
>M-14.

As the distance gets longer, wind has its effect on the little 5.56 much 
more than the 7.62.  But the usual distances in match competitions is 200, 
300 and 600 yards, at which distances the M16 is supreme.  It is possible to 
get superior accuracy at even longer ranges with the M16, but they have to 
use very heavy bullets (80 grains+) that will not fit in the M16 mags.  As 
you talked about in your post, the M16 becomes a single shot.  With this 
proviso, the M16 is beating the M14 at all ranges now in competitions.  I 
think they are even getting good results at 1,000 yards, but these are 
obviously not issue weapons.

Anyway, when we are talking 1,000 yards we are really talking about ranges 
for snipers, not infantry.

>Skilled shooters can fire the 14 from the 1,000
>and that's something that's pretty ridiculous with the 16.

Certainly ridiculous for me.  An M14 would have to be pretty tweaked to 
consistantly make shots like that, and you would need optics.  It is a very 
poor platform for optics and the M14 needs constant maintanence to keep 
excellent accuracy.  The M16, on the other hand, once accurized needs little 
upkeep and it is a great platform for optics.  But you are certainly right 
that it is not going to bowling them over at 1,000 yards.

>I understand that current M-16s in U.S. service have these (IMHO
>ridiculous) three-round-burst limiters.  Which makes the trigger action a
>little bit different between first, second, and third shots of each
>burst.

The trigger pull is the same for every shot in semi-auto.  These "match" 
rifles I am talking about will usually have a special double stage trigger 
installed.  Otherwise, the standard M16 trigger, like most military 
triggers, is really too heavy for serious accuracy.

I always thought it was interesting in Striker that they have a 7mm assault 
rifle (which seems to be a FAL/G3/M14 type weapon), a 5mm assault rifle 
(M16), and then skip entirely the most popular assault rifle of all time 
(AK-47).  What are all of the guerillas supposed to be armed with?

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl quotes me and replies:
>On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:17:35PM -0400, laning wrote:
> >
> > I have some hesitation about whether it's a good idea to even trying
> > to make open source game design work.  If it works, it isn't like
> > stealing market share from Bill Gates.  It's making it impossible
> > for guys like Loren Wiseman to earn a living in the industry.  We
> > won't have any full time RPG designers anymore.  Which probably
> > means a lot of important and good contributions to RPGs will never
> > take place.
>
>Open source and free software aren't about winning market share from
>Bill Gates--they're about doing the right thing (or rather, doing a
>more right thing).  I don't think that anyone will argue that it's
>more moral to give away than the sell; in fact, I can think of few
>schools of thought other than Objectivism which would so argue.  It's
>not wrong to charge for one's labour (how else could one eat?)--but it
>is better to give it away.
>
>No-one should ever be forced to give away his labour--that would be
>slavery.  But OTOH it must be recognised that if _I_ give mine away,
>then _you_ will have a hard time selling yours.  But that is, to be
>quite honest, your problem.

I had no wish to get into philosophical theory.  I do wish to point out who 
is affected by an effort that results in taking market share from 
professional game designers.  Regardless of their original intent.  It will 
be the folks like Loren who live on a shoestring instead of folks like Bill 
Gates who already has more money than he has a purpose for.  I believe that 
a lot of people new to the situation rather expect that gaming companies 
are big faceless corporations with deep pockets, when really they are just 
the opposite.

I do not adopt that attitude of "Tough luck, Mac" if I do something for my 
own amusement (gaming as a hobby) that puts good and decent people of 
personal acquaintance (Loren) out on the street.  I don't know if your "But 
that is...your problem" remark was intended to sound quite as callous as it 
came across to me in print, but that's just me, and as you say that's my 
problem.  I'm not losing any sleep over it.  My issue is this.  If people 
are going to make a choice with profound consequences, then they should be 
aware of what those consequences are.  A successful effort to publish 
open-source game designs will kill an industry that is fairly marginal by 
replacing it with people who do it for a hobby.  I'd wager a lot of 
would-be participants in open-source gaming are not aware of that 
consequence prior to someone pointing it out.



>And a _lot_ of important and free contributions to RPGs took place
>back in the old net days--ever read the Net.Books
><http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/byzantium/55/index2.htm#bluetroll>?
>The vast majority were written by players for players.

I was not aware of that, and will look at the link later today, thanks.



>Games are already fairly open.  Despite certain companies' wishful
>thinking, a game is already an open standard, in that anyone can
>create materials compatible with it.  That's a lot of what we're doing
>here on the TML, isn't it?  And yet no-one claims that we are stealing
>from Messrs. Miller or Wiseman, or that they are unable to make a
>living.

Very good point.  To be fair, there are times we've had pretty heated IP 
debates about whether something is being stolen from them.  And the harm it 
does to their ability to make a living usually gets mentioned in those 
debates.  And the people who were breaking the law haven't always ceased 
nor desisted.


>Steffan O'Sullivan seems to have done well with FUDGE, a system which
>is truly free (in the sense of freedom), yet which is also sold.
>There's a lot of value added to a book vs. a computer file--much more
>than that added to software by boxing it up vs. putting it online.

Good point about added value.  I have no idea whether Steffan O'Sullivan is 
making a living at it or not.  I don't hear him complaining, but that 
doesn't mean a thing, since where I would go to notice such a complaint.

>Even SJ Games have a free summary of the most basic of GURPS rules
>available.  I imagine that sales of GURPS Basic Set are rather dwarfed
>by sales of the myriads of supplements they put out.  And how many of
>us would really stop buying RPGs just because they might be available
>online?
They didn't give it away until after they'd established the market for 
GURPS and had said myriads of supplements.

I can envision a real world way of developing RPG open source designs that 
will compete directly with _all_ RPG publications, and would evolve over 
time to be superior to them in most instances.  Online availability and 
printing and binding in your home is still a novelty and is far from 
reaching full 'market penetration'.  How many of us would actually pay for 
a $20 rule book that we can print and bind for less than a tenth of 
that?  A few yes, but the majority would take the cheaper option.

....leading to electronic publishing discussions but I don't know if that's 
relevant to this discussion or not.


>Heck, I just spent more than $200 for HackMaster's Player's Guide,
>DM's Guide and Vols. 1-VII of the Hacklopaedia, despite the fact that
>I'll never play it in my life.
You display a trait common in our hobby, but very few of us spend like 
that.  I suspect you have far more disposable income than most gamers.  And 
I don't suppose those volumes were available online.

In summary, you raise excellent points that do make a difference.  But if 
your intent is prove open-source RPG design is a stillborn idea, I don't 
think you've chosen compelling arguments.  If your intent was to explode my 
own points as invalid, you haven't convinced me that they are.

I think the real difficulties of moving the idea forward is lack of 
concentrated energy among people who have the right skills.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:48:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:48:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F51yTB0lrvpLA0sOVtS000096e4@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>I think when the manufacturer sells 'surplus' ammo they know precisely
>whether a shipment will be delivered to commercial sellers or to the
>government.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The WCC I have, which is produced by Olin, was for a foreign government 
contract that never made it out of the country for some reason.  It came 
linked, with tracers.  :)

Lake City is a government owned facility that is operated by a contractor 
(currently Federal).  I don't think they are supposed to be making private 
sales of the stuff.  From what I hear, the diversion to commercial suppliers 
is being stopped by the government.  Much of it is in Federal packaging, but 
some of the older stuff is packaged in 30 round boxes with stripper clips, 
ready to be issued to the troops.

Really, you guys are shocking me with all of this talk of low velocity 5.56 
ammo.  I have never heard anybody mention this before, and I have been 
around and been interested in the weapon for a while now.  If you have or 
know of any sources for this info, I would sure like to see it.  Off list if 
you prefer.  Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409115948.027e20f0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B73@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409151639.02480008@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:01 PM 4/9/2002, laning wrote:
>[A ship owner who has] incurred a loss and been reimbursed the 90% of fair 
>market value [...] hires bounty hunters to recover the ship.  Payment will 
>be to split all profits from selling the recovered ship, after first 
>making up the 10% that wasn't insured and then covering all expenses incurred.

No; the insurance company will guard against scams of this nature by 
insisting that, if the ship is recovered after the claim is paid, it 
belongs to the insurance company and not the insured.  In this case, the 
insurance company will generally sell the ship, and if (after deducting the 
expenses related to recovering and selling it) the insurance company 
recovers more than the 90% of the fair market value that they paid for the 
claim, the extra monies are split in some way (that will vary from policy 
to policy) between the insurance company, the people who recovered the 
ship, and the original owners.

Bounty hunters can work for or with insurance companies, or for the 
owner.  If the ship can be recovered quickly, inexpensively, and with 
little damage, the  owner can recover the ship without having to make a 
claim - the only cost is the cost of the recovery fee (maybe into the 
hundreds of thousands of credits).  But, in general, the ship will not be 
so easily recovered (or once recovered, will not be in the condition it was 
when it was stolen).

So, ship owners will generally want to file a claim, and let the insurance 
company worry about recovering the ship.  Recovering and selling the ship - 
even at a fraction of it's full value represents a huge reduction in the 
insurance company's loss.  Thus, they will tend to employ bounty hunters 
and skip tracers to recover ships, and some type of fee-splitting 
arrangement that provides an incentive for the bounty hunters to recover 
the ship with as much of it's original value as possible.  This would 
probably involve a salary, retainer, or base fee for any recovery (again, 
maybe ranging into the hundreds of thousands of credits), plus a bonus if 
the ship's resale value exceeds the company's cost for the claim and recovery.

This does leave open one possible scam - the owner or crew could "steal" 
their own ship, abandon it, file an insurance claim and take their 
90%.  Once the ship is recovered, if they can re-purchase it at auction for 
less than 90% of original market value, the original owners will now own 
the ship free and clear, plus some amount of profit.  On the other hand, 
the ship may now be in need of expensive re-certification and other work to 
make it space worthy.  Not to mention the cost of increased insurance 
premiums ... and the amount of scrutiny that they will get from insurance 
and law enforcement.

>One racket would be owner and crew cooperating to make the ship seem to be 
>stolen, get their 80% or 90% from the insurance company, then the crew 
>goes off as bounty hunters and "recovers" the ship from the "thieves", 
>they sell the ship for nearly it's fair market value, and they've just 
>made a profit of circa 80% of the value of a ship.

Nope - first off, the insurance company will investigate the heck out of 
this scenario.  In the second case, the proceeds from the sale of the ship 
will go to the insurance company, and only a tiny fraction will be paid to 
the "bounty hunters".  In general, the amount they'd see from this scam 
(90% insurance payment plus 0%-2% recovery bonus) will be less than if 
they'd sold the ship outright at fair market value.

In theory, this scenario can be used to scam the bank of a ship which is 
subject to a mortgage.  The ship is "stolen" by it's own crew, the 
insurance pays the bank note off (leaving the crew ship-less and 
mortgage-less).  It is then "recovered" by the crew, who get paid a 
recovery fee or bonus by the insurance company.  This isn't nearly enough 
for a new ship (or even a down payment on one), but could still be a nice 
amount of money.  Even in this case, I'm sure the bank and insurance 
company would investigate, and may even "blackball" the captain and crew, 
so that they cannot obtain another bank mortgage on a ship easily.  It will 
probably still happen - but not often.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092000.DSB05659@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>
>As the distance gets longer, wind has its effect on the 
>little 5.56 much more than the 7.62.  But the usual 
>distances in match competitions is 200, 300 and 600 yards, 
>at which distances the M16 is supreme.  It is possible to 
>get superior accuracy at even longer ranges with the M16, 
>but they have to use very heavy bullets (80 grains+) that 
>will not fit in the M16 mags.  As you talked about in your 
>post, the M16 becomes a single shot.  With this 
>proviso, the M16 is beating the M14 at all ranges now in 
>competitions.  I think they are even getting good results at 
>1,000 yards, but these are obviously not issue weapons.
>

I've shot for fun at ranges where state police were 
practicing with their mouse guns.  I was using a Remington 
700 Police DM in .308, with a new barrel.  Past 300 yards, 
there was an incremental advantage, which really opened up at 
about 500 yards (hey, there really IS a morning glory effect).

They were not smirking afterwards.  They wanted my weapon.

>Anyway, when we are talking 1,000 yards we are really 
>talking about ranges for snipers, not infantry.
>

OK.  But how do we identify these men if the basic weapon 
can't do half the sniper's range?

>Certainly ridiculous for me.  An M14 would have to be pretty 
>tweaked to consistantly make shots like that, and you would 
>need optics.  It is a very poor platform for optics and the 
>M14 needs constant maintanence to keep excellent accuracy.  

I never had a maintenance problem with the M-21, nor were the 
optics a problem.  I would recommend not taking off the 
sights (some mounts I saw later were silver soldered to 
prevent removal).  They are not "tweaked" so much as 
specifically chosen/selected and then "gone over" to be 
properly re-bedded (glass bedding certain areas).  A lot of 
factory rifles today (bolt-actions) come with aluminum 
bedding blocks as standard, and have higher quality barrels 
than virtually any military rifle.  So many of them are 
accurate enough "out of the box" to give any semi-auto (and 
this includes a tricked out M-16) a run for its money.

Even though Remington has had its quality control problems 
over the years, I could take virtually any Sendero model out 
of the box and out range anyone with a tricked out M-16.  
Mind you, this means that I would have to set up the shooting 
situation (ambush), but if I had the ability to start the 
fight at a distance and place of my choosing, I'm probably 
going to put several people down before any of the rounds 
come anywhere near me.  At that point, they'll be shooting at 
a target not much larger than a grapefruit, with a round that 
won't penetrate a sandbag at that range (the long bodied 
match rounds are not penetrators).

I am quite sure that if I had a suppressor (not completely 
quiet, but masking the point of origin of the shooting), and 
was using the Mark V M3 10x, and had the strap-on KN-250 
night vision scope, I would probably put down as many people 
as I had rounds in the magazine if the engagement was at 
night.  And that would be at a distance of over 600 yards.  
I'm not sure that the targets (coming out of an area known 
and already spotted) would have much chance of spotting me 
with naked eye, or anything short of thermals).  Just looking 
for me would be suicidal.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:39:44PM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409141022.A18068@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:39:44PM -0400, laning wrote:
>
> >No-one should ever be forced to give away his labour--that would be
> >slavery.  But OTOH it must be recognised that if _I_ give mine away,
> >then _you_ will have a hard time selling yours.  But that is, to be
> >quite honest, your problem.
> 
> I believe that a lot of people new to the situation rather expect
> that gaming companies are big faceless corporations with deep
> pockets, when really they are just the opposite.

No argument there--I've heard the stories.  Heck, a quick look through
con photos in any gaming mag proves the point:-)

But that doesn't matter.  Free software is not about sticking it to
Bill Gates; it's about free software.  Gaming is not about sticking to
to gaming companies (they're generally good people); it's about
gaming.

> I don't know if your "But that is...your problem" remark was
> intended to sound quite as callous as it came across to me in print,
> but that's just me, and as you say that's my problem.

I didn't mean it to sound callous, more as a statement of fact.  What
I meant is that if I produce work (which is my right) and I free it
(which is my right), then someone who produces work (which is his
right) and keeps it proprietary (which is also his right) will have to
do a _much_ better job than I do in order to compete.

I don't feel bad about that, any more than I would if I produced work
and simply sold it for less than the other guy.  I actually feel
_less_ bad, because I have given my work to the world, to do with as
it pleases.

Should Steve Jackson feel bad that he has made it very difficult for
another universal RPG system to be produced?  Of course not.  Should
Marc Miller feel bad that he has upped the ante for science fiction
roleplaying?  Certainly not!  Should Loren Wiseman feel bad that he
has set an incredible precedent for GURPS Traveller supplements?
Perish the thought.  Each has done a wonderful job, and each has made
it harder for another to succeed (a new universal RPG must be better
than GURPs; a new sci-fi RPG must have a better setting the the Third
Imperium; a new series of Traveller supplements must be better than
the GURPS line; these are all tall orders).

Should any of the above feel bad that their own brilliant success has
made it more difficult for me to follow in their footsteps?  No.
Should I be upset?  No.

So what's the difference between them and me?  Don't say that my own
IP is not as precious to me as to them.  I love travlib dearly.  It's
the best work I've ever produced.

If they should not feel bad about out-competing me, why should I feel
bad about out-competing them?  If I should not feel bad that they
out-competed me, why should they feel bad if I out-compete them?

Not that I'd directly compete with any of the above.  I write
software, not supplements.  And yes, my hope is for my GPLed
Traveller-compatible software to enable a lot of other programmers to
write more Traveller-compatible software.  And it doesn't bother me
that this will make it more difficult for others to profit from
proprietary Traveller-compatible software.  Why should it, any more
than it bothers Stephen King that he's made it more difficult for
other to profit from horror novels?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Distracting factors leading to traffic accidents:
  - object or person outside the car 30%
  - adjusting the radio or CD player 11%
  - dealing with another occupant in the car 11%
  - cellular phones 1.5%
     --Highway Safety Research Center at the University of North Carolina

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:13:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:13:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
Message-ID: <F67WW92A0HoXONfjxJJ00006b11@hotmail.com>

Thomas Vickers wrote:

>I don't know about that. I saw a story on the History channel about a 
>Marine
>officer in Korea I think. He made his men take bayonet practice even though
>it was outdated.  They got pinned down on patrol and ran out of ammo.  THe
>officer led a successful bayonet charge up a hill which wiped out the North
>Koreans. That sounds a bit drastic, but useful.

I remember thinking one time when I was staring down the barrel of a .45, 
"thank God he does not have a knife."  Getting penetrated by a knife is 
somehow terrifying, and it also gives the wielder credible non-lethal 
options.  I think there have been several instances in recent times when 
bayonet charges have routed the enemy, even if no one actually got stabbed.  
A bayonet would be vital for handling prisoners, and possibly even reluctant 
heroes.  ;)

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:23:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:23:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408135946.02824dd0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D89BAB.38054%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 11:39 AM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to
> the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300
> feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the
> government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting.

Something is way wrong.  Spec velocity for M193 55gn ball is supposed to be
3250 fps.  You're saying it 2300?!  I've got a bunch of contract stuff.
I'll try to run it through the chrony this weekend.

Found some specs for military ammo:

     "U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition require a 55
grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity of 3,250 q 40 fps from a 20
inch test barrel measured 15 feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement
from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean radius at 200
yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates to approximately three MOA).
"Statistically average" M193 ranges from 1.2 to 1.6 inches mean radius,
which is equivalent to 1.8 to 2.4 MOA. "

     "NATO specifications for SS109 (U.S. M855) Ball require a 61.7 grain
(q 1.5 grains) with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,025 fps
(q 40 fps) from a 20 inch barrel 25 meters from the muzzle. Typical
velocity 15 feet from the M16A2's muzzle is around 3,100 fps. The accuracy
requirement from a test fixture equates to a maximum of approximately four
MOA over the 100 to 600 yard range. Typical accuracy of average lots in an
M16A2 is about 2+ MOA. This round must also penetrate a nominal 10 gauge
SAE 1010 or 1020 steel test plate at a range of at least 570 meters (623
yards). "
 
> I did all my reading on this topic over a dozen years ago, but I seem to
> recall that there has been plenty of reliable material published that
> debunked the notion of the magical differences causing the 5.56 to tumble,
> etc. when no other bullets were able to achieve the same effect.  I said
> that very poorly.  What I mean is that government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam
> had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other
> assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.

All rifle bullets tumble when transiting media.  The M193 round just does it
quicker.  I direct you to several like animal and ballistic studies that
confirm this.  Try The International wound ballistics association
publications or my personal favorite "Antipersonnel Weapons" published by
SIPRI.  There are some rather high speed photographs.

It should be noted that analysis of casualties in the Vietnam war showed the
5.56x45mm to be 11% more likely to produce a casualty (lethal) than
7.62x51mm.  Of course the NVA and VC may have just dragged off all the
bodies with 7.62 holes in them to confise us poor Americans.

> Including poorer 
> accuracy.  

What?!  The M-16 has consistently proved to have a smaller MOA than the M-14
since adoption and up to the present day.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
Message-ID: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Look at Shellshock.  It's just a combat system, but 
it's "free".  The idea is to get everyone to use it, and then 
sell them ancillary product.  In their case, selling "instant 
terrain", etc.

You would still need to defend the intellectual property 
rights of the "free" part of the game, or some game company 
would run off with it.

The core part of GURPS might as well be "free".  I think that 
SJ Games makes most of their money off of all of those 
supplements.  And you have to keep making new supplements in 
order to make money.  It's not an industry with a lot of 
margin in it, either.  Software is expensive to create, more 
so than any role-playing game.  We really should pay someone 
like Loren or Doug a LOT more money for their work.  Imagine 
if Loren was paid as much to write these things as I am paid 
to design software architectures.  Doug would be able to 
spend ALL of this time writing - which I know would radically 
improve his quality and output.  Not that it's bad -- but he 
wouldn't have to do *anything* else (well, maybe feed 
penguins).  And if he had any economic worries (believe me, 
real life intrudes), they might be a lighter burden if he 
knew he had decent medical insurance, paid vacation, and a 
steady income from what he loves to do.

Mind you, we would all run out and apply for the job if that 
were true.

What I would be willing to pay for is a more well-thought out 
game.  I was willing to pay over 500 dollars to accumulate 
the whole PCCS set of books, just to get a "combat system".  
Note that I said "just".  If I could get that detail and 
quality (or better) in a single book, I would gladly pay over 
100 dollars for it (heck, I paid 200 for the Riverside 
Shakespeare, and you can download Shakespeare plays).  I 
would much rather have that than an endless series of rule 
books.

OTOH, I do want an endless series of adventure books, 
background, etc.  I would pay 10 to 20 dollars a month for a 
subscription to a monthly edition of JTAS which would have to 
be equal in quality and depth to a non-gaming magazine 
(Precision Shooting).  Unfortunately, there are more 
benchrest shooters than Traveller players with money.

Given our numbers, and given what we really want and expect, 
we really need to reconsider the economic model.  And not 
just from the perspective of "let's go make a free game".

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:39:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:39:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
Message-ID: <B8D89F67.3805D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 12:46 PM, Sam Draper at samdraper@lansource.net wrote:
> 
> That is very interesting.  I have read in tests that little darts at high
> velocities are remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do
> little tissue damage.  But odd things happen at high velocities.  I'll see
> if I can dig up my source.

It depends on how well they are stabilized.  The trick is to make a
projectile stable in air, but unstable in tissue.  As tissue is about 800
times denser, this is generally not a problem.  As you are doubtlessly
aware, all projectiles tend to yaw, and this tendency is exacerbated when
transiting media.  The long, thin projectile tends to tumble and bend,
creating large permanent wound tracks.  Also, a quick review of Mach's
equation will show that retardation rates for these long projectiles are
high, meaning that more energy is dumped into the target more quickly.

Lastly, it is much easier to drive 'darts' at very high velocities. once a
projectile passes 1450 m/s, the speed of sound in tissue, there is a
dramatic increase in tissue damage.

See Charters & Charters (1976):

Experiments conducted with steel spheres at velocities around 2000 m/s
showed that such projectiles  "could be expected to have significantly
different wounding effect than larger spheres, with approximately the same
energy, impacting at about 750 m/s. The smaller spheres showed less
penetration in gelatin blocks, but much greater lateral damage."

And later: "This type of wound would be particularly disabling and may
require new approaches to debridement and wound closure."

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:48:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:48:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092046.DSD03610@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>     "U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition 
>require a 55 grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity 
>of 3,250 q 40 fps from a 20 inch test barrel measured 15 
>feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement
>from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean 
>radius at 200 yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates 
>to approximately three MOA).

back in 1989, we tested 5.56mm SS109 from four different 
M16A2 (we just got them) at 300 yards.  The range was 
outdoors, so wind was a factor.  The shooters were not your 
run of the mill soldiers.  The lesson was that shooting 
outdoors is not shooting in a test tunnel.  The average group 
size was over 12 inches (some people managed smaller - as 
small as 4 inches).

Using the M-21 without the scope, just NM iron sights, using 
M118 special ball, we all managed 3 to 4 inch groups.

I'm not sure what I would ascribe the difference to, other 
than quality of weapon and quality of ammunition.  

Something else to consider - there is a maximum degree of 
engineering tolerance that you can measure and control when 
manufacturing or reloading ammunition.  The reason that I 
stick to .30 caliber is that those tolerances have less 
effect on a larger, heavier round.  The bullet is larger and 
heavier, the case larger, and the powder charge heavier.  So 
if I vary by the same amount, there's less of an effect - 
more consistent ammunition.

Another reminder - in benchrest shooting, if you don't limit 
the magnification or weapon weight, people tend to the .22 
PPC.  It's an *extremely* accurate round out of extremely 
accurate rifles.  But as soon as the magnification is limited 
to 6x, or the weapons are firing from NM iron sights, 
the .308 rules, even over the 6mm PPC.  The .223 Remington - 
is not seen - in benchrest circles.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:53:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:53:05 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.110558.7F2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several 
> places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and 
> they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone 
> in the place.

"the rifle"?

What is it, a Barret .50 or something? 

> I went out and bought another one.  But it's not like the 
> place I work for now really needs to know that.  You really 
> are treated as a second-class citizen, just for owning a 
> firearm.

I'd be surprised if that happened around here.

> I don't know how Tod does it, or Mark, or some of the other 
> NFA holders.  People would jump out of their skins here if I 
> told them I was going to buy an NFA weapon.

Ok, *that* I can understand.

> ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because 
> people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.

I suspect that folks are still gonna get a bit uncomfortable around
folks who are "over-armed" for the situation. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:54:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:54:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <20020405.142533.-122687.3.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20409.111006.0U8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> How about oosik? 
>
> Say what??? What's Oosik??

It's the penis bone of walruses.

Yes, many mammals have a *real* "boner". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:55:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:55:50 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.111435.4V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the 
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of 
> war.  People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or 
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.  
> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their 
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full 
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in 
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything 
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).
>
> It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message 
> across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you 
> have to do.
>
> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their 
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like 
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to 
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough 
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their 
> ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on 
> the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay 
> waste to an advanced industrial society?

If they have reason to *expect* that sort of thing? 

A *lot*. Especially given that once nuclear damper tech is available,
decontamination is a matter of raising the decay rate of the fallout
and other contaminated material as high as you can without generating
more heat than you want to deal with. 

A planet is a *big* place. 

There's also the fact that if you do it to them, you'd better expect
them to return the favor.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:57:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:57:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020405164806.00a49df0@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <20409.112410.6E7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:20:15 -0700, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>
>>Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>>blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>>strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.
>
> Put me down as afraid of guns, then.  Being in the presence of a real, 
> functioning weapon makes me nervous.  In most circumstances, I would refuse 
> to even hold one.
>
> To some extent, this is probably because I was never acclimated to them as 
> a youth, through hunting or whatever.  But I am similarly nervous around 
> anything that can cause death or serious injury, even/especially by 
> accident or negligence.

Knives, chainsaw, cars, hammers, baseball bats....

> For example, I used to work at a gas station; part 
> of my job was refilling propane cylinders from the big tank out back.  I 
> hated it.  The stuff was cryo-cold, flammable, explosive, and under high 
> pressure.  I was trained for it, but I still hated it.

I used to work around stuff like hydrofluoric acid and 180 C baths of
concentrated caustic (NaOH/KOH mix). 

I was *cautious*. I wasn't scared.

Someone who *was* scared managed to splash himself with weak HF
solution *because* he was scared. Rather than lower the carrier
carefully into the bath by the handle, he'd *drop* them.

Rational caution is one thing. *Fear* is quite another.

> There's also the "with great power comes great responsibility" angle.
> I do not want or need the power to maim or kill another human being,
> or the responsibility that necessarily comes with it.

I take it that you don't drive then. 

Seriously. a car is a deadlier weapon than most guns.

> It's a lot harder to kill someone with a jacket.  Definitely not 
> impossible, but jackets are not primarily designed to apply deadly 
> force.  A firearm is, and I grant them all the respect they are due
> as a result.

Knives are primarily designed to cut flesh. It's all in how you use a
tool. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:58:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:58:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20409.114039.8S6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear 
> devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and 
> convincing reasons for it.

It takes an unreasonable amount of effort to damage a *planet*. 

Destroying cities and installations on or near the surface is easier,
but still, a lot of effort. 

You've got to realize that there are lots of places on earth, hell,
even in the US where you could set off the biggest nuke ever made, and
the folks a town or two over wouldn't notice anything but the fallout.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:59:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:59:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20409.114950.6a1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> But mutual destruction is not assured.  One side would have to win a 
> years-long naval campaign in order to deliver its nuclear warheads against 
> all the appropriate targets.  Strephon, from the comfort of his Capital 
> doesn't fear in the least for his own safety or his families in the event 
> of nuclear exchange with the Zhodani.  And the Vargr Extents are such a 
> hotheaded place that I cannot be convinced all the nuclear warheads that 
> have been in that region for centuries were never used due to its leaders' 
> very enlightened view about protecting civilization.  As the Sword Worlders 
> should have nuked whoever they were ticked at many times over by now.  And 
> the Aslan prize honor well above their own individual lives.  Aside from 
> cultural biases toward or away nuclear warfare, there have just been so 
> many _individual_ sophonts with their fingers on the button in different 
> times and places that it should have happened many times by now.

Remember, nuking a *planet* is about the same "scale" as nuking a
*city* now. At least relative to the sizes of the major players.

But it involves a *lot* more effort. We are talking tens to *hundreds*
of *thousands* of warheads. And that's just for a "sparse" coverage. 

A size 7 world is 7000 miles in diameter. That gives a surface area of
over 150 *million* square miles. That means that if you hit it with
10,000 warheads they'll average 125 miles apart!

With 100,000, they'll average a bit under 40 miles apart.

Planets are *big*.

> And in a way, the game's authors agree with that notion.  But only in 
> general.  There seems to be a lack of specific worlds that have actually 
> been thoroughly nuked over to go with the general history of 
> destruction.  Let me go through all the relevant canonical evidence that 
> come to my (sputtering and unreliable) memory to see what each one in turn 
> makes me think about how MAD affected things.
>
> The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:
> The Ancients War
> Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani
> Presumably the N Interstellar wars
> Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night
> Very early in Zhodani history
> Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) from 
> on Darrian

No, what happened to the Darrians was an accident. An induced solar
"flare" of incredible magnitude. Sort of a "mini-nova". 

> At least I think it was nukes with Darrian.  Or something just as 
> devastating, so the MAD concept would still apply.

Except the Darrians are the only ones who have the Star Trigger. 

> I can easily accept that enough time has passed since nuclear weapons were 
> used by the Ancients that we shouldn't look for reduced populations or 
> uninhabitable areas due to them.  But their war is an example of none of 
> the sides being deterred by MAD.
>
> The war against the Ziru Sirka should have left marks on various planets 
> that would have been mentioned elsewhere in canon.  It is an example of 
> just how geographically vast wars between interstellar powers are, and how 
> that makes MAD unlikely.
>
> There don't seem to be any worlds still showing mentionable signs of 
> nuclear weapons from the N Instellar Wars.  Ditto for examples from the 
> Long Night.

You are forgetting that with nuclear dampers, you can clean up the
radioactive contamination *easily*. and unless truly amazing numbers of
weapons are used, the actual *blast* damage will easily disappear on
something as big as a planet. 

> Darrian seems to be a good canonical instance of nuclear warfare happening 
> specifically somewhere, not just in a general way to somebody.

That wasn't anything as trivial as a nuclear war. The Maghiz clobbered
electronics and the like for *parsecs* from the Darrian home system.

> I find it hard to believe there are no famous specific examples of worlds 
> in the Core sector being "razed" by nukes dropped by one of the Barracks 
> Emperors or wannabes.  Civil wars tend to be the least civil, as the old 
> saying goes.

You are missing the *scale* of things. Dropping a nuke on a planet is
(relatively speaking) equivalent to throwing a grenade into a *room* of
a building in a city. At worst, blowing up a small building. 

You won't find the damage unless you *look* for it. 

> There are also quite a few canonical instances of balkanized worlds or 
> neighboring worlds that are on the brink of total nuclear warfare in the 
> current timeline.  If such tensions have careened towards the brink so 
> often in current times, how could they have been so consistently avoided 
> during the pasts of all the locations that canon visits and shows us.

Maybe they weren't. 

It's just that contrary to popular belief, anything short of the level
required to trigger something like a nuclear winter, *won't* be all
that noticeable even 300 years later. 

Even without damper tech, in 300 years high-level nuclear waste will be
no more radioactive than the original uranium ore. Stuff like fallout
would take careful tests to detect. The craters of surface blasts would
be detectable with radiation detectors. But only as areas a bit more
radioactive than normal. 

Bulldoze the dirt and rubble from the "total destruction" zone around
the crater into it (a good idea to both fill the hole and to help
"immobilize" the contaminated material) and it'd be hard to tell after
even a hundred years.

Remember, the more radioactive something is, the *shorter* the
half-life, and thus the quicker it becomes safe.

So, short of researching local history, or doing a *detailed* survey of
an area, you'd never know that there'd been a nuclear war unless it was
*really* bad.


Which reminds me. Some day I need to sit down and try to figure out
what would be required to produce a "burned off" world such as appears
in some of Norton's books. Especially something like "the Big Burn" on
Terra from "Plague Ship". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:01:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:01:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.121152.9P1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>      "Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani."
>
>      Canon is littered with references to the Vilani "way" of war being 
> brutally pragmatic.  IMHO, the Ziru Sirka would have used nukes early and 
> often.  Then again, I have trouble believing the canonical description of 
> the Interstellar War anyway.
>      GT:RoF has the Vilani visiting Terra after the 2nd War.  These 
> representatives of the ZS must have been either brain dead or traitors not 
> to bring an accurate report back to Dingir from Sol.  After being shown a 
> ~10 billion humans on an industrialized world, the "brutally pragmatic" 
> Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt.

Sorry, not *possible*. Not even the third Imperium has *that* kind of
firepower. 

It'd (barely) be possible to "pave" the surface, if you had *lots* of
time and money..

>      All the explanations about population levels, internal Vilani politics, 
> blah, blah, blah, are just liberal doses of handwavium.  With the 
> superioroty in maneuver drives and missile tech that RoF claims for them, 
> the Ziro Sirka would have, could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it 
> glowed.

Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
Millions, hundreds of millions.

>      Perhaps, or maybe it's just damper technology.  I don't have Striker to 
> hand, but IIRC dampers pretty much draw the fangs out of nukes.  How 
> easy/hard would it be for PDFs to maintain damper coverage for an entire 
> world?  Could such coverage be projected from orbit by naval vessels?  If 
> so, the 3I could show up above some balkanized world with a nasty squabble 
> taking place and declare a "no-nukes" zone with a couple of orbitting 
> escorts.

It'd be easier to just "sweep" areas with dampers set to "mildly"
accelerate reactions and cause any chunks of fissionables above a
certain size to melt into puddles (which could lead to messy side
reactions as the spreading puddles meet).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:02:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:02:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <010301c1de1d$72819f80$a85d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20409.125213.4J9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>> I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because
>> humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill
>> that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate
>> thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in
>> Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost
>> any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something
>> separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before.
>
> The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
> Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
> million or more - far greater than the examples given above.

The camps didn't just kill Jews. Add in the homosexuals and gypsies and
you get more than 10 million.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] G:Ground Forces queston
In-Reply-To: <B8D3910E.30E8%jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20409.133914.4F8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In the Grav vehicle design section, duct fans are listed as having a
> positive energy amount, instead of negative.  Is this an error or do they
> actually act as power plants?

Well, unless they are driven electrically, they are engines turning the
fans.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:05:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:05:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3B11B.377EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20409.134026.4K8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/5/02 7:30 PM, Trista at asmahan@the-spa.com wrote:
>
>> Hmmm, that sounds like the book 'Forlorn Hope'; mercenaries use
>> something called a 'cone bore rifle', the barrel of which is supposedly
>> of diamond and fires an osmium needle which is compressed as it travels
>> through the barrel and reaches hypervelocites. Had them in cannon size
>> too as I recall.

And it was one of those artillery sized ones that got them in trouble.
They managed to shoot down a multi-billion credit starship with it.

Thus causing the opposition to specifically *exclude* them from the
amnesty. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:06:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:06:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Flechettes
Message-ID: <200204092052.DSD04457@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn
<snip about flechettes>

See Dr. Fackler at
http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/pmrb.html

There are the other bullets we were discussing there, as well 
as Fackler talking about flechettes.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:08:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:08:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:35:30PM -0400
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:35:30PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> You would still need to defend the intellectual property 
> rights of the "free" part of the game, or some game company 
> would run off with it.

That's the difference philosophy between the GPL and BSD.  The GPL
says `this is free, and whatever you do with it must also be free.'
The BSD says `this is free; enjoy.'  I'm partial to the GPL, simply
because otherwise someone else can take that work and profit from
closing it.  But there are good arguments for both models, depending
on what one's goals are.

Tax-funded work, for instance, should be BSD-licensed, never
proprietary, thus allowing everyone to use it.

> We really should pay someone like Loren or Doug a LOT more money for
> their work.

Well, it's all a matter of what the market will bear.  Software pays
better because there's more demand.  RPGs pay worse because there's
not as much.

I try to help by purchasing about as many RPGs as I can afford (I've
got almost all of the main GT line, including GT:FT, GT:FI and GT:GF).
I figure that Loren, Doug, Marc and the rest all deserve a bit for the
good work they've done.

The fact that I collect RPGs doesn't enter into it:-)

> What I would be willing to pay for is a more well-thought out 
> game.

That's part of the value add one gets with a professional editor.
Most people cannot properly edit their own work.  I wonder if it might
not be possible for there to be money in taking freely-available work
and compiling it onto one large work.  Slap a compilation copyright
over the whole thing (to prevent others from just grabbing it up), but
the individual pieces are still free for anyone.

> Heck, I paid 200 for the Riverside Shakespeare, and you can download
> Shakespeare plays.

Yup.  Shakespeare's copy rights long ago expired--yet there's still a
market in them.  And there's still a market in plays, despite the fact
that, AFAICT, no-one's managed to do any better since.

> Given our numbers, and given what we really want and expect, we
> really need to reconsider the economic model.  And not just from the
> perspective of "let's go make a free game".

Well, something folks should realise is that it's not a free game in
the sense of money: a lot of work and effort would go into such a
thing.  I've spent man-months working on travlib and travtrack; I've
poured a lot of my life into them.  The same would hold for a free
system.  It's free in the sense of freedom; anyone could enjoy its
use.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If your adversary is badly bunkered, there is no rule against your
standing over him and counting his strokes aloud, but it will be a wise
precaution to arm yourself with the niblick before doing so, so as to
meet him on equal terms.                 --Horace G. Hutchinson, 1886

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:10:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:10:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F164o8C7wyfwjHNuQuN000048cd@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon:

>I've shot for fun at ranges where state police were
>practicing with their mouse guns.  I was using a Remington
>700 Police DM in .308, with a new barrel.  Past 300 yards,
>there was an incremental advantage, which really opened up at
>about 500 yards (hey, there really IS a morning glory effect).
>
>They were not smirking afterwards.  They wanted my weapon.

True, issue semi-autos do not have the accuracy of accurized bolt guns.  But 
the AR-15 is pretty close, as close as it comes really.  Comparing police 
issue M16s (Vietnam era M16A1s or carbines?) to a 700 Police DM is really 
apples and oranges.

> >Anyway, when we are talking 1,000 yards we are really
> >talking about ranges for snipers, not infantry.
> >
>
>OK.  But how do we identify these men if the basic weapon
>can't do half the sniper's range?

I think most Marines can hit a torso sized target at 500 yards about 100% of 
the time.  I don't think I am going out on a limb by saying their chances of 
hitting the target at that range is not going to be any greater with an M14. 
  Certainly a match M16 can beat a match M14 at that range (absent extreme 
winds).

>I never had a maintenance problem with the M-21, nor were the
>optics a problem.  I would recommend not taking off the
>sights (some mounts I saw later were silver soldered to
>prevent removal).

What mount are you using?  I have never found one that repeats zero after 
removal, and I am not comoftable with having to resight a weapon every time 
I want to give it a thorough cleaning.  I have looked at the ARMS mount, and 
it looks pretty solid, but it will still not be as good as mounting optic 
direcly on the reciever like you can with the M16A4.

>They are not "tweaked" so much as
>specifically chosen/selected and then "gone over" to be
>properly re-bedded (glass bedding certain areas).

The problem with the M14 is that the bedding needs to be redone every 
season.  Otherwise, its accuracy will deteriorate.  The M16 does not need 
bedding, and it can easily be free-floated.

>factory rifles today (bolt-actions) come with aluminum
>bedding blocks as standard, and have higher quality barrels
>than virtually any military rifle.  So many of them are
>accurate enough "out of the box" to give any semi-auto (and
>this includes a tricked out M-16) a run for its money.

I would say that most commercial rifles, like the ones from Wal-Mart, would 
definately not get better accuracy than a match M16.  Certainly a tricked 
out or upgraded bolt action would probably be better than a tricked out M16 
though.

>Even though Remington has had its quality control problems
>over the years, I could take virtually any Sendero model out
>of the box and out range anyone with a tricked out M-16.

Of course it depends on what you are doing.  Would you arm an entire army 
with Senderos?  It is not exactly the ideal close-quarters weapon.  Sure, 
the bolt gun would be superior to an M16 in the specific scenario you 
mention, but that does not necessarily make it superior in all situations.  
The M16A2 is a classic Jack of all Trades weapon.  Capable of aimed fire out 
to 500 yards, most effective at under 200 yards, which (they say) is where 
most infantry combat takes place.  While the M16 may have rang limits, it is 
supported by a variety of longer range weapons.  I think the army, when 
adopting the M16, correctly decided that there is a real limit to how far 
the average infantryman can shoot effectively, and adopted a weapon that is 
optimized for that range.  The longer range stuff is the responsiblity of 
the supporting weapons (which you left out of your sniper scenario).

On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off some 
M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and issuing them at 
the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max 500 yards?) and sniper 
(800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the guy with the M14 the 
"designated marksman" or something like that.  The guy who wrote the article 
I read did not like the idea, because of the the difficulties associated 
with the accurized M14s as stated above and standardization issues, but from 
what I understand these were deployed to Afghanistan so we should be getting 
reports soon.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:11:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:11:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204072135.DON00704@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D8A4C3.3806F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 2:35 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> laning asks
>> 
>> Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread,
>> mentioning the ability of various Traveller races to cope
>> with recoil, I should have also mentioned battle dress.
>> That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more recoil.  But
>> how much?
>> 
> 
> Good question.  I've always wondered about this, because if
> you could carry large weapons and handle high recoil, you
> would have a semi-auto rifle that fired high velocity 20mm
> (not low velocity 20mm like the OICW).
> 
> 20mm californium rounds, that is.  The one part of Striker I
> really liked.  Hit someone in battledress and watch the
> little mushroom cloud.

With 'soft recoil' weapons, you can shoot some pretty big stuff.  The
problem is having any accuracy when shooting off a non-rigid platform (like
a person).

I have a photo somewhere of someone shooting a .50 Browing machinegun (soft
recoil version) full auto off their shoulder.

How does 'soft recoil' work you ask?

In a simple example, a large percentage of the weapon is capable of movement
within its mount.  The moving portion (including the barrel and bolt)  is
held rearward under spring pressure.  On firing, the moving assembly is
propelled forward, with the actual round being fired at some predetermined
point, usually just before 'run out'.  The rearward force of firing must
overcome the forward momentum of the assembly before any recoil is felt.

This is the reason that open bolt SMGs have less recoil than closed bolt
guns.

it is quite possible to design gun of fairly large caliber and KE that can
be fired tolerably by a person.

The problem with these systems is maintaining point of aim while the
assembly goes rocketing forward before the round is actually fired.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:12:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:12:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8D8A503.38070%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 3:05 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth
> for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and
> for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females
> it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing.
> Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how
> old the data is.

I just looked at my spreadsheets and see that the thickness I used was
actually 25 cm.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:14:52 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204092104.DSD06042@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson asks
>
>"the rifle"?

Remington 700 Police DM, in .308. (Comes with HS Precision 
stock with integral aluminum bedding block). Action 
reworked/firing pin replaced with titanium pin, barrel 
replaced with heavy contour Douglas Premium Match barrel, 
Timney trigger, Leupold Mark V M3 10x scope with mil-dot 
reticle, NEAR one-piece scope base optimized to get the most 
elevation adjustement out of the scope, Vortex flash 
suppressor, bipod, Simrad KN-250 GEN III night vision with 
adapter to fit over Leupold Mark V.

Some were frightened just by seeing it, some by going to the 
range with me and *seeing* it.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F36GB9wIWXLU9778dvM000038ae@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon said:

>back in 1989, we tested 5.56mm SS109 from four different
>M16A2 (we just got them) at 300 yards.  The range was
>outdoors, so wind was a factor.  The shooters were not your
>run of the mill soldiers.  The lesson was that shooting
>outdoors is not shooting in a test tunnel.  The average group
>size was over 12 inches (some people managed smaller - as
>small as 4 inches).

I think the military only requires 3 or 4 MOA from its M16A2s, so that is 
not out of line.  Standard issue M14s were not required to do any better.  
Whether those were mediocre rifles or mediocre ammo (I'll take your word for 
it that there were no mediocre shooters ;)), I've seen much better.

Were these U.S. rifles?  Just curious, as the army does not call the 62 
grain round SS109; here it is called M855.

>Using the M-21 without the scope, just NM iron sights, using
>M118 special ball, we all managed 3 to 4 inch groups.

That is not realy fair comparing an M21 with NM sights to issue M16s.  It is 
undeniable that the M14s have been entirely replaced by M16/AR-15s at the 
National Matches.  This is at ranges out to 600 yards.  The Marine team even 
switched, because they found it intolerable to keep getting whipped by the 
Army.  One shooting comparison between two different quality rifles is 
hardly an even playing field.

Did you guys see that a female teenage Marine won the national matches (with 
an M16) a few years ago?

>I'm not sure what I would ascribe the difference to, other
>than quality of weapon and quality of ammunition.

Ammunition maybe, and maybe poor quality assembly, but not the weapon 
system.

>The .223 Remington -
>is not seen - in benchrest circles.

The .223 is a fairly accurate round, on par with most cartridges.  The 308 
is theoretically more accurate.  It is certainly more resistant to the wind. 
  But as far as semi-auto platforms, there is nothing better than Stoner's 
design.  Put a 308 in an M16 platform, like the AR-10 or SR-25, and you get 
outstanding accuracy.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092132.DSF01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>  says
>Comparing police issue M16s (Vietnam era M16A1s or 
>carbines?) to a 700 Police DM is really 
>apples and oranges.
>

These were Montgomery County Police and Maryland State Police 
with heavily tricked-out M-16 variants (you know the type, 
looks like a Gauss rifle).  They were all firing match grade 
ammunition.  They did best at 100 yards, which is their 
engagement distance.  Past that...  Out at 800 yards, where 
the wind blows, you have to compensate more for the 5.56mm.

>
>I think most Marines can hit a torso sized target at 500 
>yards about 100% of the time.

Marines yes, Army infantry, no way.  And that assumes that 
your enemy is standing in the open.  Most experienced 
soldiers go into the prone.  Once you're in the prone, the 
bolt action in the hands of a sniper has the advantage, 
because you can hit grapefruit-sized targets very reliably at 
300 to 400 yards, and most of the time at 500.  Take those 
same Marines and try to have them hit the grapefruit at 500.  
There's probably a Distinguished Marksman in there, isn't 
there?

>  Certainly a match M16 can beat a match M14 at that range 
> absent extreme winds).
>

Part of the reason the M-16 does better is *over* a course of 
fire - fatigue due to recoil is an effect.  

>What mount are you using?  

The standard one that came with the weapon - round knob.  
There's a lot of grief to be had from removing it, but you 
can find a good one.  Then again - for purposes of real 
accuracy, I've never been able to get "detachable" mounts of 
any kind to repeat zero.


>scenario

That's why you shoot in order - RTO, machinegunner, anti-tank 
missile gunner, sergeant, LT.  But, like I said, spotting me 
in the first place is difficult.  But if all the police have 
is a set of mouseguns, then set up with a Sendero at 600 
yards.  Not one will ever return fire, unless there are more 
than four.

Go to the store and look at a Sendero.  It's not a custom 
weapon, but it is very, very good.  About the only thing it 
requires is a properly mounted high quality scope and having 
the bolt squared and lapped.  I've had two (and a 700P), and 
all of them were 1/2 MOA out of the box.  The remaining work 
was for my peace of mind.  My 700P was close to 1/4 MOA.

The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my 
rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these, 
and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get 
him without losing half the team or more."

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F166rhup7IpGwC6RZT20000d54e@hotmail.com>

Tod Glen:

>It depends on how well they are stabilized.  The trick is to make a
>projectile stable in air, but unstable in tissue.  As tissue is about 800
>times denser, this is generally not a problem.  As you are doubtlessly
>aware, all projectiles tend to yaw, and this tendency is exacerbated when
>transiting media.  The long, thin projectile tends to tumble and bend,
>creating large permanent wound tracks.  Also, a quick review of Mach's
>equation will show that retardation rates for these long projectiles are
>high, meaning that more energy is dumped into the target more quickly.

That all makes a lot of sense to me, but it just seems like I read something 
that said kind of the opposite.  The site where I thought I read that is 
down though, and my memory is hardly infallible - except in regards to the 
velocity of 5.56mm ball of course.  ;)

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:02:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:02:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F80Dll7fnp3eEHJtfob00001392@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon said:

>These were Montgomery County Police and Maryland State Police
>with heavily tricked-out M-16 variants (you know the type,
>looks like a Gauss rifle).  They were all firing match grade
>ammunition.  They did best at 100 yards, which is their
>engagement distance.  Past that...  Out at 800 yards, where
>the wind blows, you have to compensate more for the 5.56mm.

With tricke out M16s, these guys are crappy shots if they can not make a 
headshot at 600 yards.  True, your Sendero will be better, but the M16 
should still be able to do the job.

>Marines yes, Army infantry, no way.  And that assumes that
>your enemy is standing in the open.  Most experienced
>soldiers go into the prone.  Once you're in the prone, the
>bolt action in the hands of a sniper has the advantage,
>because you can hit grapefruit-sized targets very reliably at
>300 to 400 yards, and most of the time at 500.  Take those
>same Marines and try to have them hit the grapefruit at 500.
>There's probably a Distinguished Marksman in there, isn't
>there?

Again, no question that a 308 bolt gun will do better at longer ranges than 
an issue M16.  A tricked out AR-15 could be able to make headshots at that 
range too.  A 308 bolt gun from Wal-Mart would not.

>Part of the reason the M-16 does better is *over* a course of
>fire - fatigue due to recoil is an effect.

Sure.

> >What mount are you using?
>
>The standard one that came with the weapon - round knob.

Is that the Springfield mount?

>Then again - for purposes of real
>accuracy, I've never been able to get "detachable" mounts of
>any kind to repeat zero.

I have had outstanding results with mil-spec rails, but maybe our 
definitions of what is acceptable is different.

> >scenario
>
>That's why you shoot in order - RTO, machinegunner, anti-tank
>missile gunner, sergeant, LT.  But, like I said, spotting me
>in the first place is difficult.  But if all the police have
>is a set of mouseguns, then set up with a Sendero at 600
>yards.  Not one will ever return fire, unless there are more
>than four.

I would not be too sure.  People win national matches at 600 yards with 
M16s.  They can mount some pretty nice optics/night vision, etc. on their 
weapon, and the pros can make a headshot at that range.

Besides, in your sniper scenario, as a lover of peace and tranquility I'd 
simply avoid them.

>Go to the store and look at a Sendero.

I don't have to go to the store.  ;)

>It's not a custom
>weapon, but it is very, very good.  About the only thing it
>requires is a properly mounted high quality scope and having
>the bolt squared and lapped.  I've had two (and a 700P), and
>all of them were 1/2 MOA out of the box.  The remaining work
>was for my peace of mind.  My 700P was close to 1/4 MOA.

Which is not all that remarkable for rigs like that.  I actually like 
Winchesters and get similar results.  And don't you dare start a 
Winchester/Remington thing on this thread!

Anway, my point was that a stock AR-15 HBAR will get 1/2 MOA too.  1/4 MOA 
is doable with some upgrades.

I definately agree with you that wind effects 5.56 more than 308, but on the 
other hand you have to start making adjustments for wind for any caliber at 
the longer ranges you are talking about.

>The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my
>rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these,
>and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get
>him without losing half the team or more."

Those cops have seen one Stephen Segal movie too many.  ;)

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F80Dll7fnp3eEHJtfob00001392@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D8B7BA.3813B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 3:01 PM, Sam D at samdx@hotmail.com wrote:

>> The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my
>> rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these,
>> and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get
>> him without losing half the team or more."
> 
> Those cops have seen one Stephen Segal movie too many.  ;)

Reality.  The police evacuate the area.  Then they get their negotiator to
bore you to death.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092239.DSH02057@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>Reality.  The police evacuate the area.  Then they get their 
>negotiator to bore you to death.
>--

The assets that police have: time, time, and more time.  And 
some more time.

That's why you keep seeing idiots in orange jumpsuits or 
black bodybags on CNN.  The police wait until you decide to 
put on the orange suit, or they wait until you get so tired 
that they rush you and put the black bag on you.

Which makes me wonder what happened in various Federal 
situations.  As long as no one is being killed, I would 
presume that you have all the time in the world.  Even if 
they've killed officers, you can still wait.

ObTrav: Idiot players trapped in their ship by the police.  
Locals set up a carnival row; onlookers begin to camp out.  
News media do unflattering background stories on the players 
and their families. Police start pinochle tournament.  
Players resort to eating their shoes.



________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20409.121152.9P1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com> <20409.121152.9P1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020410084316.A2115@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

[someone wrote:]
> > Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt.
>
> Sorry, not *possible*. Not even the third Imperium has *that* kind of
> firepower.

Not with nukes, no.  They are quite expensive per unit of energy.  And
certainly not on a whim.

The Third Imperium could actually build and transport about 10^17 N
worth of HEPlaR drives per year.  Thruster plates would be even
easier, but I'll assume HEPlaR.  A decade worth of HEPlaR production
gives you 10^18 N of thrust.  The cost of building the mining systems
and refineries for them to run on water would would be relatively
trivial in comparison.

You find a nice large cometary body, say 1000 km across, to mount them
on.  You build a shell around it.  You accelerate it for a further
decade at 0.0003g (initially), aimed at Terra.  By the time it gets
there, about 60% of the mass has been consumed and it's moving at
about 1500 km/s.  If my calculations are correct, that should deliver
enough energy to overcome Earth's gravitational self-binding.

In practice it wouldn't be that efficient, but it would certainly
create a new asteroid belt, and render what's left of the planet into
a recondensing ball of gas.  It would also noticeably alter Earth's
orbit, lengthening or shortening the year by about half a day or so.


> > the Ziro Sirka would have, could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it 
> > glowed.
> 
> Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
> Millions, hundreds of millions.

What scary numbers.

Ten million 100-megaton warheads costs about 1 TCr at Ziru Sirka tech
levels.  That's less than some *single* systems' GWP for just one
year.  Furthermore, the whole load could be carried in a few transport
ships.  The total cost (including transportation) works out about the
same as a couple of dreadnaughts, and they deliver enough energy to
raise the temperature of the entire surface of the planet to the point
where it does *literally* glow.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>

The esteemed sophonts Summer, Pitt, Robertson, Bond, Laning, Wildstar and
others I am no doubt forgetting to credit, wrote eloquently on starship
insurance, leading me to commit random observations on insurance and law in
Traveller.

Your premiums would be a function your risk pool, the size of your
deductible, and what riders you have on your policy.

What kinds of insurance do starships need?  Several spring to mind.
Starships carrying a mortgage will require comprehensive insurance which
would include the following:

Theft and Casualty - Fairly straightforward, this insurance compensates the
insured in the event the ship, or any portion thereof, is stolen or damaged.
Common exclusions (circumstances under which the insurance does not apply)
would probably include: Loss as a result of Acts of God or Nature; Loss as a
result of Acts of Warfare; Loss as a result of Acts of Terrorism; Loss as a
result of Natural Hazards to Navigation; Loss due to Malice, Fraud or Acts
of Deliberate Intent on the part of the Insured, Loss Incurred while
Violating Imperial or Regional Law (including, among many things, travel in
a Red Zone.

Available riders (additional coverage relating to specific circumstances
available for higher premiums) would probably include: Atmospheric Entry;
Gas Giant Refueling; Planetfall Outside Approved Starports; Stellar Flares;
Uncharted Hazards to Navigation; Utilization of Jump-Space, Travel to an
Amber Zone.

Payouts in the event of damage will be the cost of repair of the damage, or
replacement of the damaged part(s) minus the deductible.  Payouts in the
case of theft or total loss of the vessel will be either the current value
of the ship (the Blue Book value) or a pre-agreed value established in the
policy (the more expensive, but perhaps better choice for older vessels that
may not hold their value as well.)  In either case, the payout would, of
course, be minus the deductible.

Premium reductions would probably be available for unusually well trained or
certified key crewmembers such as Captain, pilot and astrogator.
Anti-hijack and port security programs, as well as security officers on
board might also get you a discount if such things are not required by law
already.

That's frequently how insurance companies get policy holders to toe the
line.  Not by filling the policy with onerous requirements (although they're
not above that,) but by lobbying the law-making and regulatory bodies to
pass legislation and regulations that enforce the behavior the insurance
companies desire.  It also has the added benefit that the government is now
inspecting and enforcing for the insurance companies.

Modern day example:  Seat belts.  I don't think (although I could be wrong,
I'm still wet behind the ears) that insurance policies in the USA ever
required passengers in insured vehicles to wear seat belts.  Seat belts,
when used, lower insurance payouts.  Now, largely as a result of insurance
lobbying, seat belts must, by law, be worn in Texas and nearly everywhere
else. (any states in the union that don't require seat belts?)

This already too long by far, and I haven't even got into hypothetical legal
cases regarding theft and casualty insurance in the TU, much less moved on
to other kinds of insurance.

More on insurance later, if there is sufficient interest.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:55:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:55:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020410085426.A2419@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> Anyway, off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to
> make this work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the
> square-root of the inertial suppression factor.

If you're directly altering the strength of the interaction, the
strength should drop off exactly in line with the mass reduction.  The
square-root factor was when altering the *charge*.

You should likewise reduce the strength of the strong and weak forces.


Now, just Planck's constant to deal with :)

If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
well.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:57:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:57:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F793hRDT6Z3LstPGtPr00011ce3@hotmail.com>

So am I right in saying that these little gauss projectiles you all are 
talking about, the ones that do so much damage, are not fletchettes?  They 
use spin to stabilize in the air rather than little wings, right?

If so, that is where I got so horribly confused.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.151435.2e5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a 
> miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no 
> visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).

A pulse laser capable of doing srious damage to a human *will* leave a
path of ionization thru the air. This will give both a visible beam
*and* a distinctive noise. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:06:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:06:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20409.151650.6b9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/6/02 2:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>
>> 
>> But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a
>> miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no
>> visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).
>> 
>
> What type of laser? What power range?  Are their any ionizing effects?
> Certainly the laser makes noise when it hits the target.  Steam explosions
> in tissue, the popping of superheated fat.
>
> And ever looked at a later with LI gear?  Super obvious.  Like having a big
> pointer going back to the firer.  And lasers are relatively easy to defeat,
> or at least attenuate.  A few mils of highly reflective material sewn into
> clothing, prismatic aerosols.  As mentioned in a previous post, lasers are
> not good penetrators.  The problem is with the nature of lasers themselves.
> The have to vaporize there way through materials.  But the vaporized
> material itself can act as a hindrance to the laser.

Which is why you use a pulse laser with a *short* pulse duration. The
target spot flashes into plasma at supersonic speeds and blasts a nice
hole. 

And reflective material won't help as much as people think. 99%
reflectivity is *hard* to achieve. And 1% of the pulse energy is still
nasty. 

> Also, water (and by analogy tissue) is a great thermal sink. 55 calories to
> raise 1 cc of water 1 degree centigrade, IIRC.

Yeah, but given that the pulse energy is in the kJ to MJ range, this
isn't as much of a problem as you may think.

Remember, *by definition* a laser weapon has to be able to deposit
damaging amounts of energy. 

Basicly, the only effect wavelength will have is on the penetration
depth. That is, how far the energy of the pulse pentrates before being
absorbed. 

Keep in mind that while the *energy* of the pulse might only be a few
kilojoules the *power* level will be in the megawatt to gigawatt range.
Pulses of 1 millisecond or *shorter* will be wanted, both to avoid
problems with target movement, but also because the shorter duration
tends to increase the "shock" effect due to increased rapidity of
energy deposition.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <20409.151650.6b9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018393991.5137.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Which is why you use a pulse laser with a *short* pulse duration. The
> target spot flashes into plasma at supersonic speeds and blasts a nice
> hole. 

And, since this isn't clear, it's probably better to use multiple pulses; if
the pulses are close enough together in time you can drill a hole.

> Basicly, the only effect wavelength will have is on the penetration
> depth. That is, how far the energy of the pulse pentrates before being
> absorbed. 

Well, it has a fairly significant effect on range.  Higher penetration also
allows higher energy per pulse, since heat is deposited efficiently at a
greater depth.
> 
> Keep in mind that while the *energy* of the pulse might only be a few
> kilojoules the *power* level will be in the megawatt to gigawatt range.
> Pulses of 1 millisecond or *shorter* will be wanted, both to avoid
> problems with target movement, but also because the shorter duration
> tends to increase the "shock" effect due to increased rapidity of
> energy deposition.

Think microsecond.  You want to create a supersonic shock effect.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:29:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:29:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>

Used to be Scripting Help...

 Well IMTU, originally there wasn't any computer platforms. Simply because
as the Ref I wasn't at the time into computers at all. The subject was
never a point.

 However now I find that there were/are hundreds of computer platcorms in
the world. not counting the versions of several of them. What would this
mean to the TU?

 As some have written about the great beast Gates. I thought that a user
of a minority system could have a few points to add. I mean just because a
new system is forced upon the public. Doesn't magically make all computer
users have it on their desks.

 Taking a clue about the difficulties in file work betwen a windrone any
version and the Commodore. I have been making notes on a run for my
upcoming rebirth Traveller game. Team finds a "disk" that contains the
secret information. but it is not compatible with what they have on the
ship. Now how do they read the information with out destroying the
contents. A fact that I have heard about in older windrone systems being
copied to newer systems. But point is that Idon'T think in Traveller there
is a mega corp making 100% of the computers and all the Os for the
software. I would propose that there are many smaller companies making
software and computers using their own systems. As in the 80s in this
world. Increase that to the tech levels of the worlds, non impperial
worlds with their own standards and there is a situation. One that I am
not certain the Computer skill as written covers in CT.

 As a simple example to this, say I write a file in geoWrite/Whels on my
Commodore. Add to that a GeoPaint file of a map. Send this to someone that
uses a windrone machine. Say this is done online. Any one tapping the line
would collect the file. but unless they have the same equipment as I do,
then it is a bummer to read. BTW: that also includes the fonts. As the
GeoWrite/Whels uses IIRC VLIR a form of image rather than ascii or pet
ascii codes for the charcters. The map would be a lage image file.

 Now I do know that there is a file called "gwimport.exe" created by
maurice Randall that will allow a windrone user to read the base ascii of
the GeoWrite file. It is a Pd one and i have a copy on my BBS. There is
also one for the Amiga called "gwimport.lha" That also is on my BBS. Yet
the file is not one that the majority of useers would have in their tools
disks. Oh FWIW the C= has tools to read the text files in IIRC ascii from
the 1.44 formatted disks. This tool is a german one called "GeoDos".

 As you can see the Ref could install the ability for tools/files to be
about for the higher level computer skilled character to open files from
other platforms.

 Naturally I suspect that the more computer savy members will have more to
say on the subject of cross platform work. Including older editions of
systems. This is just to stimulate the concept of computers not being
unified in the Thrid imperium.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F210WagewMS59IvqvIy000169c3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4237A.16506.A62A44@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 6:18, Sam D wrote:

> But as to your basic point that an M1 gets better accuracy than an
> M16A1, as far as issue weapons I would not be too sure.  The M16's
> action probably gives better accuracy.

My experience with the M16A1 and the M1 (though only one sample of it), 
both unmodified from issue, both using military ball, was that their 
accuracy at 100m was similar, though the M1's better trigger made it 
easier to get the best from the rifle consistently. At 300m the M1 
grouped better in all but very still conditions because the heavier 
bullet wasn't pushed around as much by the wind.

> Also, the M1's wood stock is not so great when you do a lot of firing.

I'd be more concerned about the relatively light barrel, actually.

> The M16 has much less recoil.

Now this you do notice.

> On the other hand, the M16 is lousy if you are using a
> sling (because the sling connects to the front sight which is
> connected directly to the barrel) and it has a very thin barrel.

It's lousy if you use the fore-end, full-stop.

> I bet the M16A2, with the heavy barrel, does better than the Garand
> though. 

The barrel's not thick all the way, though.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CB4251C.2440.AC8C18@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 10:44, Megan Robertson wrote:

> Insurance companies have been in the business of ripping clients off
> since they began, and I doubt they'll change... 
> 
> However, they do often state preconditions, as well as having
> 'weasel' clauses in the contract. When I took out household
> insurance a while back I had to upgrade the front door lock and they
> wanted me to get a burglar alarm until I told them I kept a Doberman
> pinscher :-) 

When I took out insuarance they wanted to put a note to the effect that 
I lived in a high burglary area, and had no alarm. They said that if I 
installed one they'd have to come round and check that this was so. 
They declined to come and check out the quality of the two bull 
terriers, though (and still put the rider in, bastards).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:35:30PM -0400
Message-ID: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 14:56, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Yup.  Shakespeare's copy rights long ago expired--yet there's still a
> market in them.  And there's still a market in plays, despite the fact
> that, AFAICT, no-one's managed to do any better since.

Shakepear didn't have any copyrights on his work - they didn't exist at 
that time. 

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F164o8C7wyfwjHNuQuN000048cd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4295B.22483.BD2072@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 20:59, Sam D wrote:

> Of course it depends on what you are doing.  Would you arm an entire
> army with Senderos?  It is not exactly the ideal close-quarters
> weapon.  Sure, the bolt gun would be superior to an M16 in the
> specific scenario you mention, but that does not necessarily make it
> superior in all situations.  The M16A2 is a classic Jack of all
> Trades weapon.  Capable of aimed fire out to 500 yards, most
> effective at under 200 yards, which (they say) is where most
> infantry combat takes place.  While the M16 may have rang limits, it
> is supported by a variety of longer range weapons.  I think the
> army, when adopting the M16, correctly decided that there is a real
> limit to how far the average infantryman can shoot effectively, and
> adopted a weapon that is optimized for that range.  The longer range
> stuff is the responsiblity of the supporting weapons (which you left
> out of your sniper scenario). 

For what you're talking about the M16 is more accurate than you need, 
and there are better weapons out there for this sort of work - like the 
AK-47 (though for westerners you'd want to lengthen the stock).
 
> On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off
> some M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and
> issuing them at the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max
> 500 yards?) and sniper (800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the
> guy with the M14 the "designated marksman" or something like that. 
> The guy who wrote the article I read did not like the idea, because
> of the the difficulties associated with the accurized M14s as stated
> above and standardization issues, but from what I understand these
> were deployed to Afghanistan so we should be getting reports soon. 

I'm not convinced that these are that big and issue. Every time you 
deploy the weapon should be sighted in first, and I never noticed any 
issues with bedding in my M1. Besides unless there are serious problems 
with this the better trigger will, IME, work in the M1's favour. As the 
M14 (AFAIK) didn't have any significant changes in it trigger (aside 
from the full-auto option) it should have a similar advantage, 
especially over an issue M16A2's trigger.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204092104.DSD06042@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB42A0A.17821.BFCECC@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 17:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Leonard Erickson asks
> >
> >"the rifle"?
> 
> Remington 700 Police DM, in .308. (Comes with HS Precision 
> stock with integral aluminum bedding block). Action 
> reworked/firing pin replaced with titanium pin, barrel 
> replaced with heavy contour Douglas Premium Match barrel, 
> Timney trigger, Leupold Mark V M3 10x scope with mil-dot 
> reticle, NEAR one-piece scope base optimized to get the most 
> elevation adjustement out of the scope, Vortex flash 
> suppressor, bipod, Simrad KN-250 GEN III night vision with 
> adapter to fit over Leupold Mark V.
> 
> Some were frightened just by seeing it, some by going to the 
> range with me and *seeing* it.

Sounds cool. What sort of groups do you get with it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:04:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:04:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D8A503.38070%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB42A0A.7930.BFCE18@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 14:02, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/7/02 3:05 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth
> > for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and
> > for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females
> > it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing.
> > Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how
> > old the data is.
> 
> I just looked at my spreadsheets and see that the thickness I used was
> actually 25 cm.

Cool. You had me thinking that everyone in the US was barrel chested 
for a moment there. :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204072135.DON00704@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.161536.4M2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> laning asks
>>
>>Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread, 
>>mentioning the ability of various Traveller races to cope 
>>with recoil, I should have also mentioned battle dress.  
>>That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more recoil.  But 
>>how much?
>
> Good question.  I've always wondered about this, because if 
> you could carry large weapons and handle high recoil, you 
> would have a semi-auto rifle that fired high velocity 20mm 
> (not low velocity 20mm like the OICW).
>
> 20mm californium rounds, that is.  The one part of Striker I 
> really liked.  Hit someone in battledress and watch the 
> little mushroom cloud.

Consider a "heavy weapon" for a K'kree. Something that "braces" against
the breastbone. I daresay that 20mm wouldn't be out of the question.

I recall some SF race that was built along the lines of the larger
terran ursines (Kodiaks, Polar bears, that sort of thing). A rifle for
one of *them* was a light anti-tank weapon for a human. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020409220409.8A29027AB5@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020409165807.00a496c0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 11:24:10 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> > To some extent, this is probably because I was never acclimated to them as
> > a youth, through hunting or whatever.  But I am similarly nervous around
> > anything that can cause death or serious injury, even/especially by
> > accident or negligence.
>
>Knives, chainsaw, cars, hammers, baseball bats....

If any of those appear likely to be used in anger or recklessly, yes.

> > There's also the "with great power comes great responsibility" angle.
> > I do not want or need the power to maim or kill another human being,
> > or the responsibility that necessarily comes with it.
>
>I take it that you don't drive then.
>
>Seriously. a car is a deadlier weapon than most guns.

I suspect you meant this rhetorically, but actually, I don't.  (My family 
was not in a position, when I was at the appropriate age, to afford the 
insurance premiums for a young driver.)  As I live in a bicycle-friendly 
city, I've never really bothered to learn since then.

As a bike rider, I'm quite aware of the potential deadliness of a ton-plus 
of metal moving at 30+ miles per hour.  Perhaps moreso than many drivers.

> > It's a lot harder to kill someone with a jacket.  Definitely not
> > impossible, but jackets are not primarily designed to apply deadly
> > force.  A firearm is, and I grant them all the respect they are due
> > as a result.
>
>Knives are primarily designed to cut flesh. It's all in how you use a
>tool.

But to claim that all tools are equally fearsome (or inoffensive), 
depending solely on the motive of the operator, is a facile 
generalization.  I am much more likely to be cautious/respectful/afraid of 
a loaded firearm than of a manila folder, if only because the potential 
injury (death or maiming vs. paper cut) is so obviously unequal.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV44bffoJpHq2XMx250001843b@hotmail.com>

Starship Insurance - Theft and Casualty - Freight and Cargo

Freight - Anything of value aboard a ship which belongs to another and is
being transported to a specific destination for a fee.  Insurance here is a
fairly simple matter, the shipper determines if they want to purchase
freight insurance.

Perhaps one or more crewmembers are qualified to write freight insurance
policies using the ships theft and casualty insurer as a kind of
super-carrier.  In addition or instead, the shipper could take out a freight
policy from a third party local insurer.  The premium would be a one time up
front payment for each shipment, and the payout would be an agreed upon
amount.  The ration of premium to payout would depend on risk conditions for
the trip (piracy, hazards, distance of travel.)

Cargo - Anything of value aboard a ship that belongs to the insured that is
not part of ships inventory.  It would be unlikely that cargo would be
covered under the ships theft and casualty policy.  In case of a claim of
theft, it would be too difficult to determine what the cargo really was, and
a problem to determine its value.  As the insurance company, do you payout
the value of the cargo at its loading point? Its value at its ultimate
destination? Its value at the nearest inhabited worls at the time of loss?
Its value at the insurance comapnies regional office at the subsector
capital?  Its value at insurance company headquarters on Capitol?  Insurance
company answer:  whichever is the lowest value. <g>

For these reasons I think you would see cargo insured in the same way as
freight.

Starports would tend to collect insurance agency offices in the same way
jails collect bail bond offices.  Many, especially on smaller worlds, would
probably be independent agents writing policies from a number of companies,
using whichever can best suit their customers needs.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:30:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:30:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020409220408.0118927AB3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002101c1e027$4452ada0$3cb18b90@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> > The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
> > Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
> > million or more - far greater than the examples given above.
>
> The camps didn't just kill Jews. Add in the homosexuals and gypsies and
> you get more than 10 million.

And all the others that found their way into them...

But even so, this, at most, might put the number higher than WWI.  The
Taiping Rebellion and WWII are still way ahead.

It also doesn't help that the camps were intimately associated with WWII,
and not really a distinct phenomenon.

You seem to be fairly consistently a couple of days behind on the list, BTW.
Are you just behind, or is it something to do with the exotic 19th Century
computers you use?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:31:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:31:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name things
References: <20020409184310.F206027A50@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002201c1e027$47ec4f20$3cb18b90@computer>

> From: "Hughes, Michael"
> Star Wars Name =
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born.

It gives some ugly consonant clusters.  Positively Zhodani in some cases.

I'm kind of getting used to the "br" in "Alabr", though.  It's obviously
pronounced like a shivering sound.  This isn't any more difficult than the
Chinese/Vietnamese "ng".  I might add a bit of emphasis to the "la", as it
makes pronouncing the "br" a bit easier.  So:  Al-la-br, rather than
Al-e-<mumble>.

I was just thinking what Doug Berry's first name would be:  Doube.  <Sings:
"Doube-doube-dou" with a Penguin accent.>  Yeah, that works.

Loren's would be a little sad:  Lorwi.  It sounds like he has a lisp.

Alabr Sucha
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ACQ and GT
Message-ID: <3CB4366A.11648.F02634@localhost>

A while back someone (was it you Doug) said they were using ACQ with 
GT. It's occurred to me to try this out too, and I was wondering how 
you dealt with the rule for spending AP for bonuses to skills, 
especially the limit for aiming (no more than 3xskill level). The 
obvious limit for this last would be the lower of the character's skill 
(in GT terms) or weapon Acc, but I was wondering how others dealt with 
this.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 19:09:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 18:09:10 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8D51C82.37945%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20409.174638.4l4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/6/02 8:42 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
>>> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
>>> build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.
>> 
>> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
>> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.
>
> ??
>
> Why permanent magnets.  A rialgun doesn't use magnetic fields in the manner
> of a coil gun.  We just have two parallel rails and the armature
> (projectile).  We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
> in the loop and acting on the armature.

There's a vertical magnetic field involved. Without it, you aren't
going to get nearly as high a velocity. 

Vertical magnetic field + sideways current flow -> forward motion. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 19:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 18:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20409.174638.4l4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D8E360.381D0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 6:46 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>>> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
>>> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.
>> 
>> ??
>> 
>> Why permanent magnets.  A rialgun doesn't use magnetic fields in the manner
>> of a coil gun.  We just have two parallel rails and the armature
>> (projectile).  We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
>> in the loop and acting on the armature.
> 
> There's a vertical magnetic field involved. Without it, you aren't
> going to get nearly as high a velocity.
> 
> Vertical magnetic field + sideways current flow -> forward motion.

I grabbed this of railgun.org:

Why are there no magnets above and below the rails to supplement the induced
field? - 
The induced field in a reasonable railgun is of a field strength on the
order of ~1 Tesla or more. A one Tesla electromagnet would be the size of a
Volkswagon and would probably need to be superconducting. [snip]
Additionally, the power for these extra magnets would either require more
capacitors or would be placed in series with the rails, adding unwanted
resistance and inductance to the circuit.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020410085426.A2419@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 10, 2002 08:54:26 AM
Message-ID: <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > Anyway, off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to
> > make this work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the
> > square-root of the inertial suppression factor.
> 
> If you're directly altering the strength of the interaction, the
> strength should drop off exactly in line with the mass reduction.  The
> square-root factor was when altering the *charge*.

Gah! I really should have taken that high school physics class.
 
> You should likewise reduce the strength of the strong and weak forces.

Okay... so I guess we need to suppose that all these forces get dropped
by the same factor.

> Now, just Planck's constant to deal with :)

Okay... I'm totally clueless, but:
E=hv, where h = planck's constant and v = frequency
(note: i have no idea what i'm taking about)
in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is that
if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we would prefer
that neither of them drop.

> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
> well.

Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
energy level of an electron in an atom?

I've heard that the atomic nucleus is held together by the interplay
between the strong and weak forces, the strong force keeping the
positively charged protons together while the weak force tries to
rip them apart. I suppose that since this idea of taming the quantum
foam should reduce both forces equally, the stability of the
nucleus would be uneffected (the effects of the strong & weak force
reductions should cancel out).

However, I'm not sure how to handle the problem of electrons, which
you mention above. But I'll try to tackle it anyway, so what follows
it totally off the cuff. I'm guessing that the electromagnetic force
keeps electrons attracted to the positively charged atomic nucleus
and repulsed by each other, hence accounting for their movements
(of course, this probably falls apart at some level, but bear with
me). Well, I'm just guessing here, but if their movements are determined
by the repulsive & attractive effects of the same force (electromagnetic),
then reducing that force should have no net effect, as reduction in
repulsion will be perfectly offset by the reduction in attraction.
In short, and I'm no physics major, so correct me if I'm wrong,
once again what I would expect is that these changes cancel out,
resulting in there being no need to change Planck's constant.

Am I totally wrong here? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17936@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Hey lads,

I am offering Mikey Trav (modified MT) up for re-assessment by my gaming
group and was wondering if some nice kind TMLers would test the Traveller
Generation component for me. 

Essentially it is a combo of Mega Trav and Chaosium generation mechanics
(before it was D20ed). It looks a little foreboding at first but the core
rules are only 10 pages long. 

Any comments/suggestions gratefully received. Ludowick, if you're still
TMLing I'd love it if you could have a look as well. Ditto Hyphen. 

If you are interested please contact me off list. 


PBEM:

I am thinking about running a PBEM D&D game for a friend. Does anyone know
of a How To website out there for running PBEM RPG sessions?

Thanks in advance, 

Mikey



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:54:19AM +1200
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net> <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:54:19AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Shakepear didn't have any copyrights on his work - they didn't exist at 
> that time. 

That was indeed part of my point...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
               --Socrates, c.  5th century BC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:24:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:24:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F217LltyKF5Q6JVW8s20001d6e3@hotmail.com>

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

In a flight on Whipsnadian hyperbole, I typed "... the 'brutally pragmatic' 
Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt."

     "Sorry, not *possible*. Not even the third Imperium has *that* kind of 
firepower."


Mr. Erickson,

     Yes, as your other posts illustrated, a planet is a VERY BIG place!  
Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the 
conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.

In another bout of hyperbole, I posted, "... the Ziro Sirka would have, 
could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it glowed."

     "Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
Millions, hundreds of millions."

     But of course.  Would you care to hazard a guess just what sort of 
firepower it would have taken for the ZS to remove Terra as a threat?  How 
many warheads, kinetic strikes, spinal mount hits, and plain old iron bombs 
would it have taken "de-industrialize" Terra?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:26:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:26:46 2002
Subject: [TML] ACQ and GT
In-Reply-To: <3CB4366A.11648.F02634@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409191152.009ffe70@mindspring.com>

At 12:56 PM 4/10/02 +1200, you wrote:
>A while back someone (was it you Doug) said they were using ACQ with
>GT. It's occurred to me to try this out too, and I was wondering how
>you dealt with the rule for spending AP for bonuses to skills,
>especially the limit for aiming (no more than 3xskill level). The
>obvious limit for this last would be the lower of the character's skill
>(in GT terms) or weapon Acc, but I was wondering how others dealt with
>this.

Wasn't me.. and I can't remember who did it.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204100230.DSP00729@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
>Sounds cool. What sort of groups do you get with it?
>

1/4 MOA.  But I have to do my work.  This is also where I 
stopped shooting from a bench, and did all of my work in the 
prone using either sling or bipod.  Laying on the ground is 
where this sort of rifle would be used, so I shot from the 
ground.

I get an acceptable score on the Rifle Ten, which is probably 
a more practical test of rifle skills, but you could probably 
shoot the same with an iron-sighted M1 Garand or even an M-
16.  Most practical rifle tests do not involve long range 
shooting, and I view most "long range" marksmanship courses 
of fire as too artificial to really measure much.  Aside from 
that, you can "practice" the test itself.

Maybe what we should all do is practice for the Kenyathalon, 
which is probably a fine test of field skill with a rifle.

I gave the rifle to the local SWAT team.  I think they're 
going to build a memorial to me.  Not the Simrad, however. 
But, it's been over a year now, and I'm reworking another 
Remington, but this time in .300 Win Mag.  In this case, 
however, I plan on sticking to 6x scopes, and shoot from my 
hind legs.

Why give it away?  Well, if you're getting a divorce, it pays 
not to have any firearms around, even if you've never made a 
threat.  The opposing lawyer is ready to make something out 
of it, even the mere presence, especially here in the 
People's Republic of Maryland.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [Fwd: FYI: Claim for Dentus/Regina]
Message-ID: <3CB3A651.5FE32F71@premier.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Here's a Landgrab claim from a JTAS subscriber:



-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.
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Return-Path: <itsjustabunny@netzero.net>
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Message-ID: <001801c1e038$d60189e0$7856f4d1@003905747>
From: "Videll" <itsjustabunny@netzero.net>
To: <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: FYI: Claim for Dentus/Regina
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 22:38:41 -0400
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FYI. Thanks, Greg.

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Videll=20
To: landgrab@downport.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 10:20 PM
Subject: Claim for Dentus/Regina


I'd like to claim Dentus/Regina as part of the 'land grab' and ask to =
have the information I develop be hosted at Downport.com. Please let me =
know what additional information you require. Thanks a lot, Greg Videll.

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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>FYI. Thanks, Greg.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:itsjustabunny@netzero.net"=20
title=3Ditsjustabunny@netzero.net>Videll</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:landgrab@downport.com"=20
title=3Dlandgrab@downport.com>landgrab@downport.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 09, 2002 10:20 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Claim for Dentus/Regina</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'd like to claim Dentus/Regina as part =
of the=20
'land grab' and ask to have the information I develop be hosted at =
Downport.com.=20
Please let me know what additional information you require. Thanks a =
lot, Greg=20
Videll.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:44:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:44:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20409.114950.6a1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409223004.02132f28@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:49 PM 4/9/2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>You are forgetting that with nuclear dampers, you can clean up the
>radioactive contamination *easily*. and unless truly amazing numbers of
>weapons are used, the actual *blast* damage will easily disappear on
>something as big as a planet.

This is a good point.  In fact, it's quite possible that the Imperial Corps 
of Engineers (or whatever the Traveller TL-15 equivalent of the present-day 
Army Corps of Engineers) does civil engineering and terraforming with 
nuclear weapons and meson artillery.  A starship armed with a large meson 
gun and a variety of nuclear missiles in bays, and supported by 
decontamination ships equipped with powerful nuclear dampers could - for 
example - clear and level an area of solid rock for a starport or carve out 
a deep water harbor on a coastline in a matter of hours, or dig a sea-level 
canal across Central America in a matter of days (and most of these times 
would be for detail work and decontamination).

>Which reminds me. Some day I need to sit down and try to figure out what 
>would be required to produce a "burned off" world such as appears in some 
>of Norton's books.

While I'm not familiar with Norton's "burned off" worlds (I don't tend to 
read Norton), the easiest way to completely clobber a planet with Traveller 
technology is to drop a few big rocks on it.  With Traveller maneuver 
drives, it should be relatively easy to nudge a number of asteroids in the 
100,000dton or bigger class into an intercept trajectory with a planet, and 
that should be all that's needed.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <000501c1df81$7b919c00$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20409.193923.3g6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>      "While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I
>> don't see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the
>> trick is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it."
>>
>>      Yes, seeding the star with enough tungsten and aiming correctly will
>> take time.  Perhaps the Darrians use multiple probes to increase their
>> chances?
>
> That is a pretty reasonable idea.  I figure they would be jumping in with
> a fleet, not just a squadron.  They probably have a couple of "probe" ships
> and multiple ships that can deliver the meson trigger.
>
> Plus, I also figure they would be dependent on relative surprise.  If they
> face a coordinated defense that is expecting them, they are probably best
> advised to try a different system in a week or so.

Why? 

They can jump in *anywhere* in the system that's outside the *stellar*
100D limit.

Say the two "beam" ships jump in roughly 120 degrees "ahead" and
"behind" the mainworld in it's orbit. And the "probe" ship jumps in
somewhere well to sunward of the mainworld.

Launch the probe, Fire the beams after it reaches the star. Jump out
after a few hours. 

Short of sheer luck, the system defense forces won't get within light
*minutes* of any of the Darrian ships.

That's what makes it such a scary weapon. You have to defend the entire
*system*, not just the planets. And you *can't*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:28 PM 4/9/2002, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
>Team finds a "disk" that contains the secret information. but it is not 
>compatible with what they have on the ship. Now how do they read the 
>information with out destroying the contents.

Good scenario hook.

IMTU, there are Imperial standards for data storage and media, mainly 
promulgated by the Scout Service.  This is not a standard in the sense that 
all equipment is required by law to support it, but rather a de-facto 
standard in the sense that the IISS X-boat system uses a specific set of 
formats to transfer messages.

It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the 
Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of 
pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding 
and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of 
languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate, 
lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications 
protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of 
getting messages into and out of the system.

Couple this with standards (IMTU published by the Travelers' Aid Society) 
for ship-to-ship and ship-to-planet communications (again via text, image, 
audio, video, and holo) and exchange of navigational data of various types, 
and you have a fairly robust infrastructure for communicating - should you 
desire to do so.

The net result should be similar to the modern Internet - any computer 
manufacturer who hopes to have any significant market share at all ensures 
that their equipment can read and write the standard media and formats, and 
can speak the standard protocols.  This doesn't prevent the manufacturers 
from building machines that also support proprietary encoding and 
formats.  However, if you're stuck with a data chip in one of those 
formats, your best bet is to try to find the machine that wrote it, and 
copy the data to a standard format.

In general, things Just Work, unless I (as referee) have a plot reason that 
they don't.  When they don't, When things do Just Work, no Computer skill 
is needed to read a file off of a data cartridge, or send an email message 
via X-boat.  Computer skill covers the ability to figure out what is wrong 
when things don't Just Work, and either write a program to fix the problem 
(or find a tool or other work around to the problem).  I would tend to say 
things like "you've got an Imperial standard data chip here, and on it is 
..." or "This data cartridge is proprietary to a LSP Model 11MP system - 
you need to find one of those to read what's on it.".


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:21:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:21:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:28 PM 4/9/2002, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
>Team finds a "disk" that contains the secret information. but it is not 
>compatible with what they have on the ship. Now how do they read the 
>information with out destroying the contents.

Good scenario hook.

IMTU, there are Imperial standards for data storage and media, mainly 
promulgated by the Scout Service.  This is not a standard in the sense that 
all equipment is required by law to support it, but rather a de-facto 
standard in the sense that the IISS X-boat system uses a specific set of 
formats to transfer messages.

It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the 
Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of 
pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding 
and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of 
languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate, 
lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications 
protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of 
getting messages into and out of the system.

Couple this with standards (IMTU published by the Travelers' Aid Society) 
for ship-to-ship and ship-to-planet communications (again via text, image, 
audio, video, and holo) and exchange of navigational data of various types, 
and you have a fairly robust infrastructure for communicating - should you 
desire to do so.

The net result should be similar to the modern Internet - any computer 
manufacturer who hopes to have any significant market share at all ensures 
that their equipment can read and write the standard media and formats, and 
can speak the standard protocols.  This doesn't prevent the manufacturers 
from building machines that also support proprietary encoding and 
formats.  However, if you're stuck with a data chip in one of those 
formats, your best bet is to try to find the machine that wrote it, and 
copy the data to a standard format.

In general, things Just Work, unless I (as referee) have a plot reason that 
they don't.  When they don't, When things do Just Work, no Computer skill 
is needed to read a file off of a data cartridge, or send an email message 
via X-boat.  Computer skill covers the ability to figure out what is wrong 
when things don't Just Work, and either write a program to fix the problem 
(or find a tool or other work around to the problem).  I would tend to say 
things like "you've got an Imperial standard data chip here, and on it is 
..." or "This data cartridge is proprietary to a LSP Model 11MP system - 
you need to find one of those to read what's on it.".


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <14d.c0033de.29e50df4@aol.com>

--part1_14d.c0033de.29e50df4_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
>for first name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
>town where you were born. 
>

   Okay, I'm game. Let's see...

   Why yumpin' yimminy, looks like I'm Kenmu Ersan :)

  -Ken-


--part1_14d.c0033de.29e50df4_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
<BR>&gt;for first name
<BR>&gt; 
<BR>&gt; First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
<BR>&gt;town where you were born. 
<BR>&gt;
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Okay, I'm game. Let's see...
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Why yumpin' yimminy, looks like I'm Kenmu Ersan :)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_14d.c0033de.29e50df4_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 22:10:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Tue Apr  9 21:10:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>

> Star Wars Name =
>
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born.

Hmm..  Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
Using your equation, I'd be:  Shasr Baden

But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

Which for me yields:  Anemet Slabar
I dunno, they're both kinda cool.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Your lack of Pants disturbs me
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 22:19:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr  9 21:19:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <20020410.001437.-391371.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Star Wars Name =
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first 
> name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town 
> where you were born. 

Perho Yaneu?

(yuck!)


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 22:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr  9 21:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8d974f770c0@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:08 PM +1200 4/9/02, Frank Pitt wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote :
>>  While I haven't followed the thread far enough to
>>  follow all the  issues, I think there is a point
>>  to be made here.  One can't just assume insurance
>>  company will force any security measure you can
>>  think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be
>>  unpopular and, unless the savings in costs is
>>  _significant_, there  won't be enough
>>  of a change in premiums to compensate.
>
>The insurance comany won't change it's premiums.
>
>There will just be a clause in the contract, similar to the one
>that exists with most vehicle insurance now, that if your vehicle
>was not warranted at the time of the accident, or it was being
>driven by an unlicensed driver, they won't pay out.
>
>They won't even bother inspecting (or telling you about it) until
>_after_ you make the claim. Then they will ask you for your
>warrant and masters ticket, and if you can't produce them they
>will refuse to pay out.


But we are talking about security measure that are intrusive enough 
that the are a hassle to the day to day operation of a ship.  Some 
people are going to know about them.  Unless they are important 
enough to make a _significant_ change in costs, another company will 
be able to draw at least some customers away buy not having such 
intrusive requirements.

>The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
>required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
>may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
>starport will do it (for important safety and financial reasons,
>would you want an unwarranted vehicle approaching an extremely
>expensve space station?), there won't be any real choice except
>for the captains to take the risk of not doing it and not go to
>the better starports

The presumption is that every insurance company will have such 
requirements.  That requires that you show that such requirements 
make a significant difference in insurance costs.  Otherwise 
insurance companies have no reason to push unpopular requirements.

However, if you can show that such requirements are needed to keep 
theft down to a reasonable level, then you don't need to invoke 
insurance companies requiring it.

In the end, invoking insurance companies is not a way of justifying 
regulations that don't have other basis.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:01:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:01:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409141022.A18068@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410003144.027e33e0@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:10 PM 4/9/02 -0600, you wrote:
>But that doesn't matter.  Free software is not about sticking it to
>Bill Gates; it's about free software.  Gaming is not about sticking to
>to gaming companies (they're generally good people); it's about
>gaming.

Okay.  But my original point that you were responding to was that there are 
unintended consequences regardless of original motives.  I want to make 
sure people who may not be aware of those consequences are informed.

> > I don't know if your "But that is...your problem" remark was
> > intended to sound quite as callous as it came across to me in print,
> > but that's just me, and as you say that's my problem.
>
>I didn't mean it to sound callous, more as a statement of fact.

Okay.  From reading your various emails, I am quite sure you're a nice 
person.  I guess it still sounds a bit callous to me, although it is 
motivated from a concern for the general welfare of all humans everywhere, 
which is certainly not callous.  It is also clear you've spent more than a 
casual amount of time in life pondering such things and you're determined 
not to be a cruel person or any such thing.  I respect you, or anyone else 
who takes a similar position, for taking that position.

I just don't want the script kiddie types piling on the bandwagon.  Or the 
hordes of people who do something because "it's cool".

Respectable Middle-Aged Lady:  "Young man, what are you rebelling against?"
Brando's character:  "Whattaya got?"

But again, people we know (even if only through this mailing list) will be 
directly hurt by the success of competing products.  And the difference is 
those people do this for a living and the competing product at issue would 
be done for fun as a hobby by people with deeper pockets.  Which side of 
that choice is taken by Socrates or Aristotle is only of intellectual 
interest to me.  I just ask myself if that's the result I want.


>Not that I'd directly compete with any of the above.  I write
>software, not supplements.  And yes, my hope is for my GPLed
>Traveller-compatible software to enable a lot of other programmers to
>write more Traveller-compatible software.  And it doesn't bother me
>that this will make it more difficult for others to profit from
>proprietary Traveller-compatible software.  Why should it, any more
>than it bothers Stephen King that he's made it more difficult for
>other to profit from horror novels?

Huh?  I was unaware of your efforts in this area, and of travlib.  Will 
wield the legendary Sword of Google and get to work on that once email is 
caught up, the cats are fed, and I've had a night's sleep.  Please feel 
free to beat me repeatedly around the head and shoulder area with a 
badminton racquet until I follow up on that if it slips.  :->

Why should it bother Stephen King?  Because he should have an ounce of 
sympathy for all the other people out there who are his sisters and 
brothers in spirit: they are compelled to write and be read by others.  Why 
should he have an ounce of sympathy for anyone, especially strangers?  No 
special reason.  It isn't the law, I don't think he will go to heaven or 
hell based on that or anything.  I just think he should.

Why should it bother you?  That's different.  You aren't personally 
dominating an industry so much that other people are being squeezed 
out.  It shouldn't bother you in the least.

I'm not trying to quash all self publishers, hobby publishers, or 
open-source creation of anything.  I'm not trying to call it unethical.  My 
message is that there will be unintended consequences that are undoable if 
open source RPG design really takes off.  And you can't go back home 
again.  People should go ahead and make their own decisions.  Adult, 
responsible, informed decisions.

I'd love to see open source game design of different kinds of games become 
a healthy and thriving activity.  I'd also love to see the people who do 
good work, but can only do so when they are able to devote full time 
attention to it, be healthy and thriving.  There is the forest.  Somewhere 
on its other side is a happy meadow where both things are happening.  There 
are many paths through the forest, and many of those paths go somewhere 
else besides that happy meadow.  As one of my old characters (a really 
reprehensible character) used to say, "Ah'll draw us a map."  That is, I'd 
_like_ to have a map before entering that forest.

--Laning
Q:  What's the best way to make a small fortune in the wargaming industry?
A:  Start with a large one.
      -An old but true saw.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:56 PM 4/9/02 -0600, you wrote:
> > We really should pay someone like Loren or Doug a LOT more money for
> > their work.
>
>Well, it's all a matter of what the market will bear.  Software pays
>better because there's more demand.  RPGs pay worse because there's
>not as much.

The above statement tends to be true but the real world is not as simple 
nor as true as that.  It only becomes a matter of what the market will bear 
when the market is huge and liquid and the product is 'commoditized' as 
they call it.  And even then are problems with preventing marketplace 
manipulation.  I do not think that our free market system is truly free nor 
is it perfectly efficient.  Prices for lots of things fluctuate wildly due 
to [long string of complex and often silly reasons] rather than any 
fundamental economic cause.  I do not believe in placing blind faith in our 
so-called capitalism (which isn't) any more than I would place blind faith 
in the former Soviet so-called communism (which wasn't).  Now that was some 
good music (Blind Faith, that is).


> > What I would be willing to pay for is a more well-thought out
> > game.
>
>That's part of the value add one gets with a professional editor.
>Most people cannot properly edit their own work.  I wonder if it might
>not be possible for there to be money in taking freely-available work
>and compiling it onto one large work.  Slap a compilation copyright
>over the whole thing (to prevent others from just grabbing it up), but
>the individual pieces are still free for anyone.

There's probably some money, but even less than in being a line editor 
now.  It would certainly be a useful contribution.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:12:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>
References: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
 <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
 <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl used the sig:
>Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
>food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
>parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
>they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
>                --Socrates, c.  5th century BC

One of several great sigs you employ, Mister Robert Uhl.  :->

Socrates really didn't much like people who he couldn't keep under his 
thumb, did he?  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:15:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:15:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <20020410051456.C94E127ABE@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/10/02 at 02:08 PM,  "Shane Slamet" <s.slamet@bom.gov.au> said:

>> Star Wars Name =
>>
>> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>>
>> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
>> were born.

>Hmm..  Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
>Using your equation, I'd be:  Shasr Baden

>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name First 3
>letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

>Which for me yields:  Anemet Slabar
>I dunno, they're both kinda cool.

Either way you have the same number of letters in every name. How
about...

First name: The first 1d6 letters of your first name + the first 1d6
letters of your last name.

Last name: The first 1d6 leters of your mother's maiden name + the
first 1d6 letter of the city where you were born.

Jamere Rit
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:26:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:26:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204092104.DSD06042@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011514.027e7ec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 05:04 PM 4/9/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Leonard Erickson asks
> >
> >"the rifle"?
>
>Remington 700 Police DM, in .308. (Comes with HS Precision
>stock with integral aluminum bedding block). Action
>reworked/firing pin replaced with titanium pin, barrel
>replaced with heavy contour Douglas Premium Match barrel,
>Timney trigger, Leupold Mark V M3 10x scope with mil-dot
>reticle, NEAR one-piece scope base optimized to get the most
>elevation adjustement out of the scope, Vortex flash
>suppressor, bipod, Simrad KN-250 GEN III night vision with
>adapter to fit over Leupold Mark V.
>
>Some were frightened just by seeing it, some by going to the
>range with me and *seeing* it.

So we're talking about people who are comfortable enough to go shooting at 
a rifle range, but want to politely form a covert vigilante gang to stop 
you from being around their place of work if you have a really nice target 
rifle.  People call me weird, but I think "people" need to look in the 
mirror sometimes.

--Laning
"A rifle is only a tool. It's a hard heart that kills." -Gunnery Sergeant 
Hartman in 'Full Metal Jacket' by Gustav Hasford, Michael Herr, and Stanley 
Kubrick


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:27:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:27:22 2002
Subject: [TML] When too much time occurs...
Message-ID: <3CB3CC38.F01EE8A9@mail.cswnet.com>

Dig out the Monopoly game...
...locate Vilani by Lonnie:

http://tribble.dreamhost.com/vilani.html

and convert those street names to vilani!!!

Baltic Avenue---Barikune Barik
Conneticut Avenue---Kaanerikuru Nekaan
Atlantic Avenue---Arukanirikune Rukanir
Boardwalk---Buriduurkibu 
[this one I fudged-stuck an "I" in for the last name"
Luxury Tax---Ukukashuriikasharu Kukashurii
Free Parking---Biriiginikira Mibirii
B&O Railroad---Baaduurukar Ibi&aa

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:34:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:34:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <14d.c0033de.29e50df4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEONGFAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Urk

Johlo Nornew no like

Grunt


> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
>for first name 
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
>town where you were born. 
> 

  Okay, I'm game. Let's see... 

  Why yumpin' yimminy, looks like I'm Kenmu Ersan :) 

 -Ken- 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:44:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:44:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:12:37AM -0400
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409234307.A19761@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:12:37AM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> The above statement tends to be true but the real world is not as simple 
> nor as true as that.

What I mean is that man, viewed as an organism, seems not to value RPG
line editors as highly as information architects (but, e.g., higher
than garbagemen).  That valuation has no moral meaning, of course.
It's just that there aren't enough people willing to pay enough to pay
line editors what IT people get.  Would _you_ pay $130 per supplement?

> I do not think that our free market system is truly free nor is it
> perfectly efficient.

Oh, it's certainly not free, which fact leads to numerous injustices
and inefficiencies.  But it's still a market.  _Every_ economy is a
market, no matter how it may try to disguise the fact.

> There's probably some money, but even less than in being a line editor 
> now.  It would certainly be a useful contribution.

Well, it's commonly accepted (among those who think about these
things) that the primary service provided by content providers is
filtering of the dregs.  The Web allowed every man to be a publisher.
And a million million screaming <blink> tags were born.

Filtering of the 5.99 billion morons in the world is an editor's job,
one that most do quite admirably.  Supporting that is a useful thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
           --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:14:40AM -0400
References: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost> <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net> <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost> <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409234739.B19761@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:14:40AM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> One of several great sigs you employ, Mister Robert Uhl.  :->

Thanks for the compliment.  I've rather a large amount of them, to
tell the truth.  I've 264, which are randomly assigned by a Perl
script attached to a named pipe.  Many, I'm afraid, are longer than
the so-called McQ limit (4 lines), but I don't particularly care; it's
a relic of a bygone era.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
This is why they complain--they don't _want_ to have brains.  Those lead
to thoughts, and thoughts cause only suffering.  Thus, by asking them to
think, you are inflicting the torments of the damned on the previously
blissfully ignorant.        --John Rowat, in alt.tech-support.recovery

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:54:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:54:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <200204092132.DSF01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410014708.027e3070@pop.wizard.net>

John T Kwon quoting and responding to Sam D:
> >I think most Marines can hit a torso sized target at 500
> >yards about 100% of the time.
>
>Marines yes, Army infantry, no way.  And that assumes that
>your enemy is standing in the open.  Most experienced
>soldiers go into the prone.  Once you're in the prone, the
>bolt action in the hands of a sniper has the advantage,
>because you can hit grapefruit-sized targets very reliably at
>300 to 400 yards, and most of the time at 500.  Take those
>same Marines and try to have them hit the grapefruit at 500.
>There's probably a Distinguished Marksman in there, isn't
>there?
I couldn't agree more.  I am a Marine who could hit consistently score 5s 
at 500 yards with iron sights, but getting that little grapefruit-sized 
circle is a much bigger challenge.  If I had stayed in the Corps, I think I 
would have continued improving at hitting those bullseyes but it would have 
taken some more years.  And then presbyopia and astigmatism afflicted my 
vision somewhat starting in my mid- to late-30s.  It would have taken years 
to get pretty damned good (for someone who isn't a sniper) and then there 
would have been a small window of quality before declining vision screwed 
that up.  Although it's entirely possible that most of my vision problems 
are related to going into computers during my 30s and spending _way_ too 
much time in front of monitors.



>The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my
>rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these,
>and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get
>him without losing half the team or more."

Apparently he forgot the correct tactical employment of smoke 
grenades.  And maybe his boys don't have those armored gunshields to hide 
behind.  Or if it really comes down to it, use a .50 cal or 20 mm on an APC 
belonging to a nearby Army or Marine unit.  Although I always wondered 
about using wire-guided ATGMs with a standoff spike for those kinds of 
guys, heh.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:56:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <20020409.225614.-2687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 00:14:54 -0500 "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
writes:
>
> 
> Either way you have the same number of letters in every name. How
> about...
> 
> First name: The first 1d6 letters of your first name + the first 1d6
> letters of your last name.
> 
> Last name: The first 1d6 leters of your mother's maiden name + the
> first 1d6 letter of the city where you were born.
> 
> Jamere Rit
> -- 

Oh, I like the options. though my original - Barst Cotor is cool.
Let's see - 5,3,4,1 - Ooops, there's only four letters in my first name.

= Barista Corrt

Not bad

Barst Cotor - Barbarian
Barista Corrt - Other - Barmaid


Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:02:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:02:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <20020410.001437.-391371.2.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204100809390.28175-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

> Star Wars Name =
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first 
> name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town 
> where you were born. 

Mikpa Auhel.

Hilarious...

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410003144.027e33e0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:02:24AM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020409141022.A18068@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020410003144.027e33e0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020410001141.C19761@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:02:24AM -0400, laning wrote:
>
> From reading your various emails, I am quite sure you're a nice
> person.

I'd like to think so, but I've no idea.  Can any man judge himself?

> I just don't want the script kiddie types piling on the bandwagon.  Or the 
> hordes of people who do something because "it's cool".

I'll agree there.  In many ways, popularity is the bane of any set of
ideas.  Witness the twits in computers, the twits in politics, the
twits in religion &c.  Computers, politics and religon are not
inherently twit-ful, but they are plagued by twits nonetheless.

> Huh?  I was unaware of your efforts in this area, and of travlib.

Travlib is a GPLed library intended to, eventually, model the entire
spectrum of the Traveller universe, from galxies to characters.  Right
now, it represents astronomical things only (galaxies, sectors,
subsectors, systems, stars, planets, belts and moons).  It's written
in C, using the gtk+ toolkit for object orientation, with Scheme
bindings using guile to enable easy scripting.

I'm currently working on two projects.  The first is the addition of
First In generation rules, with the code written in Scheme (which I
feel is uniquely suited to this sort of thing); eventually I will be
implementing CT rules as well, although internal data representation
will always be in GT terms, which are for most cases more granular.
The second project is travtrack, a GNOME application which will enable
the user to edit said data (and thus track his Traveller campaigns,
hence the name).  I've got a galaxy browser which is almost
functional...

The site is <http://travtrack.sf.net/>.  It's not over-nice, mostly
because there's not a whole lot to show yet.  My beta version of
travlib is done; travtrack is very much a work-in-progress.  The
application which comes with travlib is called travshell: it is a
Guile interpreter with travlib linked in by default.  This means that
you can write:

(define galaxy (trav-galaxy-new))
(trav-mapobject-set-name galaxy "My First Galaxy")
(define sector (trav-sector-new))
(trav-mapobject-set-name sector "A Beginner Sector")
(trav-mapobject-add-child galaxy sector)

And things like that.  Right now the library using an XML-like schema
for printing data to a file and reading it back, but I'm planning on a
Scheme special forms interface, so that one might write:

(trav-galaxy
#:name "My First Galaxy"
#:comments "The first galaxy I ever created"
  (trav-sector  #:name "A Beginner Sector")
  (trav-sector #:name "Another One"
    (trav-subsector)
    (trav-subsector)))

And so on.  As someone has said, XML is S-expressions with a painful
syntax.  But that will be a long while from now.

> Why should it bother Stephen King?  Because he should have an ounce
> of sympathy for all the other people out there who are his sisters
> and brothers in spirit: they are compelled to write and be read by
> others.

What I mean is that he has raised the standards of his profession
(personally, I loathe him and his work, but his was an example which
leapt to mind); the sympathy he should have for others less able than
he--and who have been harmed because the bar has so been raised--is
much the same sympathy that any of us has for any failure.  Sympathy,
yes.  Aid, certainly.  But no-one would ever say I write good horror
(not that I wish too): that's just a fact of life, in roughly the same
way that I will never win a race.

> Why should it bother you?  That's different.  You aren't personally 
> dominating an industry so much that other people are being squeezed 
> out.  It shouldn't bother you in the least.

Well, open source enables that sort of domination.  Linux Torvalds
wrote an OS.  Tanenbaum no longer, I think, sells many copies of
Minix.  Even the BSD projects are being relegated to the status of
footnote to history (unfairly, in many ways, but in just as many ways
it's their own fault).  It's deuced difficult to compete against free
software.  And by free I don't mean price; I mean freedom.

Regarding those who are threatened thereby, I can only say that I
don't make my living in software.  I'm a Unix system administrator; I
program in my free time.  I cannot do what I like (partially because
what I like includes freeing the product).  When I was younger I spit
chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it
sometime).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Interestingly, most Unix utilities have a command line option which will
cause the system to rip the user's legs off and beat them to death with
the soggy ends.  This is often the default behaviour.    --Bruce Murphy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F164o8C7wyfwjHNuQuN000048cd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410020404.027d89a0@pop.wizard.net>

At 08:59 PM 4/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off some 
>M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and issuing them at 
>the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max 500 yards?) and 
>sniper (800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the guy with the M14 the 
>"designated marksman" or something like that.  The guy who wrote the 
>article I read did not like the idea, because of the the difficulties 
>associated with the accurized M14s as stated above and standardization 
>issues, but from what I understand these were deployed to Afghanistan so 
>we should be getting reports soon.

Glad to hear we're doing that.  It's basically the latest variation on 
something we've at least theoretically been doing for many decades.  Each 
four-man fire team during my time in had one guy designated as the 'sniper' 
or 'marksman' or something.  Can't remember the proper term with any 
certainty.  The problem with that (during my time in) was that the position 
usually had more to do with seniority than marksmanship ability.

Ever since at least WW1, our tactical commanders have tried to concentrate 
a small unit of their best shooters to be available for various 
tasks.  Full-blown official snipers are scarce at even the regiment 
level.  So regiments, battalions, companies, and even platoons have tried 
to single out their most skilled guys for use in this regard.  There have 
been various times when these tactical efforts became a formal part of 
official TO&Es and doctrine.  Other times they were officially disapproved 
and commanding officers had to be more or less surreptitious and subversive 
to do this.  This long-term tendency is probably partly influenced by our 
old role (inherited directly from the British Royal Marines, so it goes 
back to more than two centuries) of providing snipers in the rigging aboard 
sailing ships.

These efforts by tactical commanders have often been mingled with efforts 
to create their own private "Life Guards" unit, if you will, and a recon 
capability.  Commanders like to have a reserve of best-quality troops to 
influence the battle with.  A major conflict within the Marine Corps since 
it is a fundamental axiom of our existence that all Marines are elite and 
none are more elite than others.  It was the major argument against the 
Marine Raider battalions (which were eliminated) and against the Force 
Recon battalions (which were eliminated or nearly so a dozen times in fifty 
years), and it doesn't look to be going away although Force Recon seems to 
be in pretty good health these days.  I have no problem with it and think 
it is a good thing.  I never noticed other Marines getting their feelings 
hurt over it either.  It seems to me more of a theological debate between 
passionate followers of different faiths than anything else.  Or possibly a 
fear that the competition among officers to get their "ticket punched" by 
an assignment to Force Recon was just too exclusive a competition.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:22:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:22:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F36GB9wIWXLU9778dvM000038ae@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022011.027e0130@pop.wizard.net>

At 09:18 PM 4/9/02 +0000, Sam D wrote:
 >>>
Did you guys see that a female teenage Marine won the national matches 
(with an M16) a few years ago?
<<<

OORAH!!


>The .223 is a fairly accurate round, on par with most cartridges.  The 308 
>is theoretically more accurate.  It is certainly more resistant to the 
>wind.  But as far as semi-auto platforms, there is nothing better than 
>Stoner's design.  Put a 308 in an M16 platform, like the AR-10 or SR-25, 
>and you get outstanding accuracy.

I've wondered for a long time about getting an AR-15 or similar chambered 
for .308.  How does it perform on full auto?  (I imagine it has issues with 
the barrel overheating more than a heavier weapon would.)  Rapid semi?  Is 
there even such an animal sold commercially?

Not that I have any actual use for such a thing.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D89BAB.38054%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408135946.02824dd0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>

At 01:22 PM 4/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
>It should be noted that analysis of casualties in the Vietnam war showed the
>5.56x45mm to be 11% more likely to produce a casualty (lethal) than
>7.62x51mm.  Of course the NVA and VC may have just dragged off all the
>bodies with 7.62 holes in them to confise us poor Americans.

Colt was probably paying them a bounty for the corpses with the big bullets 
in them.  Damned megacorps!


> > Including poorer
> > accuracy.
>
>What?!  The M-16 has consistently proved to have a smaller MOA than the M-14
>since adoption and up to the present day.

I am not equipped to wage a war of statistical analyses, and will 
abandon.  Even surrender, if I must.  But let the record show that I  trust 
statistical studies and proving grounds testing only so far.  Anecdotal 
evidence from actual field users of my acquaintance is not convincing (to 
me) for either side of the argument.

I also remind everyone that all other things (like velocity and sectional 
density) being equal, the more massive bullet will penetrate cover better 
and that most troops you're shooting at will seek cover if they're not 
already using it.  Big bullets still have their advantages.

And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting 
results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting 
dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or 
.308?  Or something else?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:39:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:39:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17936@r1clex01.cbr.defe
 nce.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410023924.027e4ad0@pop.wizard.net>

At 10:46 AM 4/10/02 +1000, Mikey (Michael Hughes) wrote:
>PBEM:
>
>I am thinking about running a PBEM D&D game for a friend. Does anyone know
>of a How To website out there for running PBEM RPG sessions?

I was thinking there's a need for the same thing.  Or at least will soon be 
a need.  Perhaps interested parties should form a new mailing list, and 
person or persons on that list be appointed to cull together an FAQ for WWW 
posting?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starship Insurance
In-Reply-To: <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410025025.027e56d0@pop.wizard.net>

After posting information of good pragmatic value to referees, Bill Scheets 
said:

>More on insurance later, if there is sufficient interest.

Keep up the good work!  The faint whirring sound you just heard was my hard 
drive as I saved your full post.

And yes, that's how I remember it working with seat belts.  Then safety 
harnesses.  Probably air bags before not much longer.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 01:10:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 00:10:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20409.111435.4V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410025314.02b56df0@pop.wizard.net>

Leonard says, regarding nuclear warfare:
>If they have reason to *expect* that sort of thing?
>
>A *lot*. Especially given that once nuclear damper tech is available,
>decontamination is a matter of raising the decay rate of the fallout
>and other contaminated material as high as you can without generating
>more heat than you want to deal with.
>
>A planet is a *big* place.
>
>There's also the fact that if you do it to them, you'd better expect
>them to return the favor.

Let us not forget that if the planet is an industrialized world, then most 
of the people and other interesting targets will have conveniently 
clustered themselves together in cities or military bases.  Five or ten 
thousand warheads with 50- to 100-megaton yield that reach their urban, 
suburban, and unhardened military targets will pretty much take that planet 
out of the battle for at least one generation.  Of course, their 
spacefaring navy will not be impacted by this immediately.  And, as you 
say, they'll be looking to return the favor.  I'm just picking random 
numbers, but numbers very easily within the capability of the Ziru Sirka or 
any of the Imperiums.

Sure, there will still remain plenty of places on the planetary surfaces 
that are fairly livable.  But the good harbors, river junctions, mountain 
passes, and natural resource sites will tend to be pretty 
unlivable.  Infrastructure and manufacturing capabilities will be all but 
destroyed, and the people to repair and rebuild will mostly be dead.

If everyone gets a chance to hide in good bunkers first, at least you can 
have huge chunks of population survive the immediate attack.  They'll still 
have to deal with the disabled infrastructure, which will lead to a lot of 
starvation.  Most of the facilities needed to repair and rebuild will still 
be destroyed.

I have too vague an image of how canonical nuclear dampers will precisely 
behave to really describe all how they will help, and what will be beyond 
their help.  It probably varies quite a bit from one referee's TU to 
another's.  I'd guess some referees only have them work if they're focused 
on ground zero at the time of the explosion, while others let you do 
whatever kind of prevention and clean up sounds theoretically within the 
limits of such a technology.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 01:18:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 00:18:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410031600.02c08230@pop.wizard.net>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link:
>I have been making notes on a run for my
>upcoming rebirth Traveller game. Team finds a "disk" that contains the
>secret information. but it is not compatible with what they have on the
>ship. Now how do they read the information with out destroying the
>contents.


I suggest referring to Web pages for professional data recovery 
companies.  Like On Track Data Recovery.
www.ontrack.com but beware of relatively heavy graphics and java scripting.

Western Digital's Web site (mostly known as a hard drive maker) is where I 
usually go to get a bunch of hyperlinks to data recovery firms when I need 
to refer people.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 01:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 00:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20409.224111.2G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Derek Wildstar writes:
>> At 03:46 PM 4/8/2002, Sam Draper wrote:
>>>I have read in tests that little darts at high velocities are
>>>remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do little
>>>tissue damage.
>> 
>>  From what I recall reading, the 60's era Army tests with
>> high-velocity flechettes in the SPIW program.  This weapon was
>> proposed by AAI, and fired 65 gram steel flechette at high velocity
>> (about 4800fps).
>
> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).
> A 65 gram projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.

65 grams is about 2.3 *ounces*. Ouch.

4800 fps = ~1460 m/s. 

Yeek! That's almost 70 kiloJoules muzzle energy! 

Yeah, that'd make folks go splat.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041108.027fb7c0@pop.wizard.net>

>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

That makes me Ingaty Pollan.  Sounds Hungarian or something.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] News from Delphi
Message-ID: <LAW2-F147TrBoe2U8QV000064a3@hotmail.com>

Hi,

I was wondering how is the Delphi history project going, I looked at their 
site, but it hasn't been updated since 2000.

Graham

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <14d.c0033de.29e50df4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020410031345.009c9260@minn.net>

At 11:39 PM 4/9/2002 EDT, you wrote:
>> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname  
>>for first name 
>>  
>> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the  
>>town where you were born.  

Leslie Allen Keller (Mom remarried) St. Charles (or Saint Charles),
Illinois, a suburb of Chicago.

Leska Dostc
Leska Dosai
Leska Dochi
Lesba Dostc
Lesba Dosai
Lesba Dochi

Cool...


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041108.027fb7c0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>
 <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020410032033.009cc4c0@minn.net>

At 04:12 AM 4/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
>>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name
>
>That makes me Ingaty Pollan.  Sounds Hungarian or something.
>
>--Laning

Leslie Allen Keller (Mom remarried) St. Charles (or Saint Charles),
Illinois, a suburb of Chicago.

Lieler Keldon or, Lietes Batdon




=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409234739.B19761@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
 <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
 <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
 <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
 <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041435.027f87e0@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl quoteth me and respondeth:
>On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:14:40AM -0400, laning wrote:
> >
> > One of several great sigs you employ, Mister Robert Uhl.  :->
>
>Thanks for the compliment.  I've rather a large amount of them, to
>tell the truth.  I've 264, which are randomly assigned by a Perl
>script attached to a named pipe.  Many, I'm afraid, are longer than
>the so-called McQ limit (4 lines), but I don't particularly care; it's
>a relic of a bygone era.

Keep up the good work.  :->

>--
>Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>This is why they complain--they don't _want_ to have brains.  Those lead
>to thoughts, and thoughts cause only suffering.  Thus, by asking them to
>think, you are inflicting the torments of the damned on the previously
>blissfully ignorant.        --John Rowat, in alt.tech-support.recovery

Tech support professionals are often more interested in proving their 
intellectual or genetic superiority over the "untermenschen" they "help" 
than in actually fixing problems.  The culture of elitism and braggadocio 
gets inculcated in many tech support reps before they even acquire skill in 
their primary job functions.  Reps who are confined solely to email support 
tend to be the worst.  I speak from personal observation of reps from 
several different companies, but confine my opinions to first and second, 
and sometimes third, echelons of support.

I will now prove my point by bragging.  During my tenure as an AOL tech 
support rep, I was documented to be one of the very top few best at 
actually fixing problems of any rep who has ever been in their database.  I 
rule.  And one of the primary causes of my success was treating each 
customer like a reasonable human being dealing with a problem completely 
unfamiliar to them.  Listen intently, don't talk down.  Think about what 
the actual problem is and how to fix it, don't waste mental bandwidth on 
looking for evidence to support my prejudice that all customers are 
inherently mentally defective.  If I'm so damned superior, what the hell am 
I doing working as a mere tech rep?  Most of the customers I talked to were 
being paid better than most of the reps I worked with.  Now who is the 
dummy?  :->

[And please don't anyone start with that empty and worn out "AOL sucks" 
crap.  Unless you've worked on their dev teams and are familiar with their 
host and network architectures.  And don't start with "AOL tech reps aren't 
real tech reps" unless you've worked with me or one of many, many other 
individuals I could name.  When you have that many thousands of reps, some 
of them are going to be damned good.  If you're still inclined to insult us 
after that, fine.  You'll probably be singing very different types of 
insults though.  I've my own stack of insults for AOL but it's more about 
wasted business opportunities, managers who are empire builders, and 
rampant cronyism.]

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 03:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 02:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020410085426.A2419@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020410191917.B3737@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is
> that if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we
> would prefer that neither of them drop.

Yes, that's one effect.  For example, light photons have sufficient
energy to cause certain chemical changes in pigments in the eye;
that's how we see.

If the chemical energies are a hundred times lower and Planck's
constant is unchanged, a light photon doesn't just affect sensitive
pigments, it rips electrons out of stable molecules and breaks
chemical bonds.  That's what we normally call "ionising radiation".

We can't just use light that has a hundred times lower frequency,
because it has a hundred times longer wavelength.  OK, I guess we can,
but it involves changing the speed of light...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 03:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Wed Apr 10 02:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041435.027f87e0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


AOL *does* suck.  I was a member back in 1996-97.  I had nothing but
problems with that wretched service.  My personal information was sold
to all sorts of bulk-emailers, spammers and porn sites.  The 45 minute
"click on this" to stay online button was a pain in the ass.  If you
minimized AOL and ran a browser, you didn't even get the warning..you
just got disconnected.   If you started AOL minimized, you'd get one of
their "click on this yes or no" advertisements and could not click on it
to finish logging on..so you had to disconnect and restart the whole
program.

Downloading was a joke.  You had to sit at your computer and wait for
the 45 minute button or lose the download.  (downloading the demo to
Wing Commander: Prophesy (69megs) was terrible).

I had to deal with a ton of unwanted porn mail and spam.  I had to deal
with the above frustrations.  I had to deal with support people
(obviously I never got you) who were clueless.

I had just paid for a month's time when I called up and said I wanted to
terminate my membership.  The person on the phone explained that they
could not refund my money and that I had almost a full month left.  I
said it didn't matter, I just wanted out.  So he turned my account off
and that was that.

2 months later, I got a bill from AOL saying I owed them for a month's
services.  So I had to call them and explain that I wasn't a member and
had quit in good standing.  The person on the phone looked into it and
agreed it was a mistake and told me it would be taken care of.

1 month later I get a second notice in the mail, demanding I pay my bill
or else.  Again I call them up and again they apologize and fix the
problem.

1 month after that, I get a notice saying that they are forwarding my
bill to a collection agency.  I call up and this time I tell them that
if AOL ever mails me again or contacts me in any way, I will sue.  The
person on the phone was very apologetic and promised I would never be
bothered again.

I wasn't.

A few months later, my mother calls me on the phone sounding concerned.
She asks, "Is everything ok?"  I replied to her, "yeah, why do you ask?"
She then tells me that AOL sent a past-due notice to her in my behalf
and that she paid it.

So AOL managed to *steal* money from my family that they had no right
to.  To this day I still get their stupid free CDs in the mail.

There are very VERY few things in this life I hate more than AOL.  If I
could destroy AOL and get away with it, I promise you I would.  They
have made an enemy of me for life.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 03:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Wed Apr 10 02:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410031600.02c08230@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <001701c1e075$33bf6020$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----


I suggest referring to Web pages for professional data recovery 
companies.  Like On Track Data Recovery.
www.ontrack.com but beware of relatively heavy graphics and java
scripting.

Western Digital's Web site (mostly known as a hard drive maker) is where
I 
usually go to get a bunch of hyperlinks to data recovery firms when I
need 
to refer people.

--Laning



Use an oscilloscope.  Read the magnetic wavelength off the platters and
subtract the perfect part of the signal.  What you have left is data.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <200204101125.DTH00304@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>
>= Barista Corrt
>

Sounds like you work at Starbucks.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gearhead Goodies: couple of rocket missile books
Message-ID: <3CB3DC6C.16284.140D91@localhost>

friend of mine has been flying model rockets for years, and he was showing me some 
blueprints and a  couple of books on rockets and missiles. 

www.arapress.com
the Spaceship Handboook and Rockets of the World



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGGCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> >
> >A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
> >bone from a walrus penis.  See
> >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html
>
So when I tell my girlfriend that I've got a "Boner",
I'm really speaking Eskimo?

-Shawn-



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:35:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:35:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEGGCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> >
> >A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
> >bone from a walrus penis.  See
> >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html
>

Ancient Eskimo wisdom say:
Never knife fight man with hairy palms.

-Shawn-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:52:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:52:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F217LltyKF5Q6JVW8s20001d6e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410044431.009e86c0@mindspring.com>

At 02:22 AM 4/10/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the 
>conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.

In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat 
in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?

Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public 
opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the 
region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.

All of these could be applied to the 1st Interstellar War.  The Vilani 
might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really capable of, or were 
under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder.  ISTR from losing endless 
games of Imperium to Craig that the Imperial governor was beholden to his 
superiors.. asking for the necessary firepower was a big blow to his 
prestige.  Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion snetients would do?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> 
> At 07:28 PM 4/9/2002, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
> >Team finds a "disk" that contains the secret information. but it is not 
> >compatible with what they have on the ship. Now how do they read the 
> >information with out destroying the contents.
> 

IMTU I have what's called "Imperial Standard".
These items cost 0-10% above the LBB price.
Anything Imperial Standard has compatible connectors
and data formats. Thus your Inertial Map Locator
can connect to your communicator to transmit it's data
to another players communicator, that is connected to 
his map box and hand computer. You get the drift.

-Shawn-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> QUOTE
> The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
> civilians.  It has little or no military application,
> contrary to popular mythos.
> END QUOTE
> 

Commanders who have given the order to "fix bayonets" to
scared troops, often notice an increased level of confidence
and moral. 

-Shawn-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

While putting together an exploratory cruiser for TNE (coming shortly) I
reread the information in the Solomani & Aslan book regarding the Solomani
explorations into the neighbouring Perseus arm of the galaxy.

It struck me that the ships of these expeditions would be quite challenging
to design. Mission length must have been in decades so the ships must have
been to a great extent self supporting. But just how would the ships cross
into the next arm?

Contrary to popular opinion there are stars in the gaps between the arms,
the spirals themselves being defined by bright stars. But as to how many
stars and whether fuel sources could be found there?

Assuming the ships were built to TL14 or 15 standard this means jump 5 or 6
maximum, and it is likely that in the "gaps" fuel sources may be further
apart than this. Very embarrassing for a ship to run out of fuel!

So IMHO the ships would also be fitted with Bussard Rams to scoop up the
hydrogen found in the space between arms. This would not be used for the
HePLar thruster but to refuel the jump drive and power plant. (Though this
makes the ship even bigger as it does have to carry enough maneuver fuel to
get up to a velocity where the Ram Scoop functions.

Any ideas?

Anyone want to have a go at designing one using FFS1?
Could such a ship work at all given Traveller Tech limits?

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409234307.A19761@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:12:37AM -0400
Message-ID: <3CB4DAB8.15448.3769A3@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 23:43, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> What I mean is that man, viewed as an organism, seems not to value RPG
> line editors as highly as information architects (but, e.g., higher
> than garbagemen).  That valuation has no moral meaning, of course.
> It's just that there aren't enough people willing to pay enough to pay
> line editors what IT people get.  Would _you_ pay $130 per supplement?

If the NZ dollar drops back to its former low vs the US$ and the price 
in the US of supplements goes up much more, I'll be forced to pay about 
that or do without. And if they were good supplements for a game I was 
playing (or was likely to in the near future) I probably would, sucker 
that I am.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>
References: <B8D89BAB.38054%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4DCF1.26051.4017AA@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 2:36, laning wrote:

> I also remind everyone that all other things (like velocity and sectional 
> density) being equal, the more massive bullet will penetrate cover better 
> and that most troops you're shooting at will seek cover if they're not 
> already using it.  Big bullets still have their advantages.

Yep. A source of complaint from the older guys when we switched from 
the L1A1s (a bit before my time, though the Air Farce was still using 
them in the early 90s) to the M16A1 and finally the Stryr AUG was that 
the 5.56mm bullet wouldn't go through 18" or 2' thick pine trees, 
whereas the 7.62x51 bullet would.
 
> And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting 
> results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting 
> dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or 
> .308?  Or something else?

I'd be quite happy with a .308, as long as I was used to the particular 
weapon. I'd prefer a .30-06, or in very close country a 12ga magnum 
shotgun (pump or semi-auto). However a lot depends on whether it's thin 
skinned or not - Leopards run up to 150-160 pounds and .243 is 
considered adequate for them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041435.027f87e0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <20020409234739.B19761@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3CB4DE5E.18426.45A995@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 4:35, laning wrote:

> Think about what the actual problem is and how to fix it, don't waste
> mental bandwidth on looking for evidence to support my prejudice that
> all customers are inherently mentally defective. If I'm so damned
> superior, what the hell am I doing working as a mere tech rep?  Most
> of the customers I talked to were being paid better than most of the
> reps I worked with.  Now who is the dummy?  :-> 

Now, I agree with you about not wasting mental bandwidth, but you've 
got the reason all wrong. the real reason to not look "for evidence to 
support my prejudice that all customers are inherently mentally 
defective" is that unless you've a self-esteem problem (like many of 
your co-workers obviously did) you'll know beyond a shadow of a doubt 
that you're superior. That being the case, why waste time proving 
something already self-evident?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 07:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed Apr 10 06:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Portland class scout cruiser
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBGEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

PORTLAND CLASS SCOUT CRUISER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION

The Portland class fitted into the small gap between escorts and light
cruisers. Most were deployed with the Confederations exploration division,
though the limited jump capacity, 1xJump-3 was considered something of a
hindrance, though careful mission planning could overcome this to some
extent. Portlands ranged far and wide, both on exploration and intelligence
work. Some were used by the Confederation navy, the two parallel 7,000Mj
N-PAW weapons providing a useful capability. More being used as defacto
cruisers as the 2nd Rim War progressed.

The Confederations exploration division responded to this by somehow
ensuring that most of the Portlands operated by them managed to stay far
beyond the Confederations borders. This also meant that a disproportionate
number of this class survived the war and the impact of virus.

In the absence of more capable vessels the Confederation also despatched a
number of Portlands on long range missions to search for any sign of
returning vessels from the Perseus Arms expeditions. These too had failed to
return when virus swept through the Solomani Confederation.


General Data Displacement: 15,000 tons  Hull Armour: 60
Length: 180 meters  Volume: 210,000 cubic meters
Price: MCr6,885.97438  Target Size: L
Configuration: Wedge SL  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 137,937.6836/122,269.5345 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 25,287Mw Fusion Power Plant (99.95Mw/hit), 1
year duration (83.7951Mw surplus)
Jump Performance: 1xJump-3 (42,000 cubic meters)
G-Rating: 3 (7,500Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 82 (96.9 with jump-2 reserve, 111.9 with jump-1 reserve, 126.8 with
no jump reserve), 937.5 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 5,012

Electronics Computer: 3xTL13 Fb (0.9Mw each)
Commo: 2x300,000km Radio (10 hexes, 10Mw each), 2x1,000AU Maser (8, 0.6Mw
each),
Avionics: TL10+ Avionics
Sensors: 2x150,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (5 hexes; 0.2Mw each),
2x300,000km Active EMS (10 hexes; 27.5Mw each), 2xTL13 Densitometer (0.9Mw
each), 2xTL12 Neutrino Sensor (0.01Mw each), 12xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw
each)
ECM/ECCM: EM Masking (210Mw), 36xDecoy Dispensors
Controls: Bridge with 98xBridge Workstations, Auxiliary Bridge with
98xBridge Workstations, Flag Bridge with 11x Bridge Workstations, Fire
Control Bridge with 15xBridge Workstations, plus 252 other workstations

Armament Offensive: 2xTL13 7,000Mj Parallel Mount N-PAWs (Loc: 4,5; Arcs:1;
194.4445Mw each; 19 Crew each), 20xTL13 106Mj Laser Turrets (Loc:
4x2,4x3,4x8,4x9,4x10 ; Arcs: 1,2,3; 29.4445Mw each; 1 Crew each), 8xMissile
100-ton Bays (Loc: 2x6,2x7,2x14,2x15; each with 4 missile/recce drones and
96 missiles or recce drones each; 0.15Mw each; 1 Crew each)

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
7,000Mj Parallel N-PAW  10:418  20:418  40:418  80:418
106Mj Laser Turret  10:1/8-26  20:1/6-20  40:1/3-10  80:1/2-5
-2 Difficulty Levels

Defensive: TL13 Meson Screen (PV=285; 90Mw; 4 Crew), 6xTL13 Nuclear Damper
Barbettes (Loc: 3x16,3x17; Arcs: All; 9Mw each; 1 Crew each), 10xTL13
Sandcaster Turrets (Loc: 5x18,5x19; Arcs: All; 2D6x5 per hit; 35 Cannisters
each; 1Mw each; 1 Crew each)
Master Fire Directors: 7xTL13 (4 Diff Mod; Beam; 10 hexes; 2.95Mw each; 1
Crew each), 8xTL13 (4 Diff Mod; Beam/Missile; 10 hexes; 3.1Mw each; 1 Crew
each)

Accommodations Life Support: Extended (42Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
1050Mw)
Crew: 675/687 (252xEngineering, 6xElectronics, 4xManeuver, 131xGunnery,
52xMaintenance, 41xShip's Troops, 6xFlight Crew, 156xCommand, 23xSteward,
5xMedical),Flagship adds (3xElectronics, 8xCommand, 1xSteward)
Crew Accommodations: 382xSmall Staterooms (0.0005Mw each), 10xLow Berths
(0.001Mw each)
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 1,355.7 cubic meters, four large cargo hatches
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: 1 15-ton RF14D Scorpion class recon
fighter with internal hanger (minimal) and one launch port, 2 30-ton Puffin
class ship's boats with internal hangers (minimal) and one launch port each
Air Locks: 150
Additional Fittings: 2x8-ton Sick Bays (0.8 Mw each), 2x10-ton Machine Shops
(1 Mw each), 2x6-ton Electronics Shops (0.6Mw each)

Notes
Fuel purification equipment (121.4037Mw) is sufficient to purifiy 24,280.74
cubic meters in 6 hours (30 hours for entire load exclusive of power plant
fuel) Fuel scoop capacity is 42,000 cubic meters per hour (2.83 hours for
entire load exclusive of power plant fuel).

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  		Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  		Systems
1  			1-2:Ant  		1-19:Elec,20:Qtrs  		PP-253H,JD-252H,
2-3   					1:LT,2-16:Qtrs,17-20:Hold  	FPP-170H,
4-5,12-13  		1:AL  		1-2:PA,3-20:Hold  		LS-123H,PA-80H,
6-7,14-15  		1:AL  		1-2:PA,3-7:MBy,8-20:Hold  	ELS-62H,AG-42H,
8-10  		1:AL  		1-2:PA,3:LT,4-20:Hold  		MD-23H,EMM-21H,
11  			1:LP,2:CH  		1-2:PA,3-20:Hold  		Hanger-21H,
16-17  		1:AL,2:Decoy  	1-2:PA,3:ND,4-5:Elec,6-20:Hold  MScreen-14H,
18-19  		1:AL,2-4:EMMR  	1-2:PA,3:Sand,4-20:Eng  	MBy-14H,ND-1H,
20  			1:EMMR  		1-2:PA,3-20:Eng  			LT-1H,Sand-1H,
   											ElecShop-1H,
   											MachineShop-1H,
   											SickBay-1H,
   											EMMR-(210h),MFD-(4h),
   											MFDAnt-(2h),AEMS-(2h),
   											Neutrino-(2h),SSR-(2h),
   											All others-(1h)

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
Message-ID: <200204101359.DTL04671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Antony Farrell" asks
<snip question about how to refuel in the middle of nowhere>

There are many brown dwarfs that are probably not on star 
charts, substellar or even Jupiter-sized gas giants in the 
middle of nowhere.

Ice balls, cometary bodies, etc.  Even clouds of hydrogen, 
depending on where you are.

You might, as you say, require specialized equipment to 
locate, identify, and exploit such resources.

Also, your ship may have backup power generation that 
provides a means of keeping the crew alive and the ship able 
to move enough to collect fuel.  This backup power generation 
is probably nuclear fission, which allows the ship to 
potentially go without hydrogen (albeit without jumping 
anywhere) for some time.

You may also remember Annic Nova.  That ship used power 
accumulators (and solar power to load them). 

So let's consider a ship with a nuclear fission base 
powerplant (to keep everyone nice and warm, and provide a 
little extra power to charge jump accumulators a la Annic 
Nova).  We'll also throw in a deployable solar array, in case 
we're near a star.

If we're in the middle of nowhere, with no sunlight, we 
charge the accumulators off of the excess power from the 
fission reactor.  If we're near a star, it's a bit quicker to 
recharge, since we get some solar power.

There might even be additional closed-cycle hydrogen/oxygen 
fuel cells.  These could be recharged from any other power 
production, and could be endlessly recycled.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022011.027e0130@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D9980E.382D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 11:24 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

>> The .223 is a fairly accurate round, on par with most cartridges.  The 308
>> is theoretically more accurate.  It is certainly more resistant to the
>> wind.  But as far as semi-auto platforms, there is nothing better than
>> Stoner's design.  Put a 308 in an M16 platform, like the AR-10 or SR-25,
>> and you get outstanding accuracy.
> 
> I've wondered for a long time about getting an AR-15 or similar chambered
> for .308.  How does it perform on full auto?  (I imagine it has issues with
> the barrel overheating more than a heavier weapon would.)  Rapid semi?  Is
> there even such an animal sold commercially?
> 
> Not that I have any actual use for such a thing.

Been living in a cave?  The original AR design was for a .308 (AR-10).
Current variants include the AR-10 and SR-25.  Like any full-auto .308, the
AR-10 is difficult to control.

It should be noted that the AR-10 and clones are no more prone to
overheating than any other .308 as current guns use barrels that are
comparable to other rifles.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <F210hWdlurZFj9V1M0i00013a41@hotmail.com>

>
> > Star Wars Name =
> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
> > name
> >
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town
> > where you were born.
>
>Mikpa Auhel.
>
>Hilarious...

Gresm Mopit

aka Andma Mopit



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D99957.382D9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 11:36 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting
> results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting
> dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or
> .308?  Or something else?

You forgot to add:  "Using ball ammunition only".

We are speaking of military weapons here, so let's get the ammo right.
There is no question that if ammunition selection is not restricted,
7.62x51mm is more lethal.

Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 over 7.62x51mm
ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
any particular caliber.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:28:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:28:22 2002
Subject: [TML] [Fwd: TML Landrgrab]
Message-ID: <3CB44B6D.D543DDB3@premier.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Another JTAS subscriber want to join in the Landgrab.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.
--------------905666F0ED2E48681BD24B32
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Return-Path: <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
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From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
To: "'landgrab@downport.com'" <landgrab@downport.com>
Cc: "'wombat@premier.net'" <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: TML Landrgrab
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 09:47:20 -0400
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I would like to stake a claim on the following worlds in the Spinward
Marches:

Keng/Regina
Kegena/Rhylanor

Thanks,

	Brian Hurrel

Brian L. Hurrel
ICS Analyst
EDS
(973) 682-5578



--------------905666F0ED2E48681BD24B32--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:30:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:30:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20409.224111.2G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D99A5C.382DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 11:41 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> 
>> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).
>> A 65 gram projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.
> 
> 65 grams is about 2.3 *ounces*. Ouch.
> 
> 4800 fps = ~1460 m/s.
> 
> Yeek! That's almost 70 kiloJoules muzzle energy!
> 
> Yeah, that'd make folks go splat.

I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.

69,562 Joules of energy
1,130 joules of free recoil

25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:31:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:31:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <F101tqbFkSX50mLWfFz0001f08d@hotmail.com>

>>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
>>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name
>
>That makes me Ingaty Pollan.  Sounds Hungarian or something.

Oryith Smimoo  / Regith Smimoo (if I went with 'Greg')

aka

Rewock MacMoo

Not too bad, eh?




Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F221lf8nFJ3VTPlu4kA0000f71e@hotmail.com>

Tod Glen wrote:>Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 
over 7.62x51mm
>ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
>is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
>any particular caliber.

It is a tuff call.  It appears that the 5.56mm does actually make bigger 
wounds, as long as there is sufficient tissue to penetrate, as long as the 
velocity is above 2700 fps.  With an M16 that is like 200- yards; with the 
M4 it is only 100-140 yards.  After that range, you are better off with the 
bigger round.  And the 7.62x51 certainly penetrates through cover better at 
all ranges.  But however you weigh those tradeoffs, there is no doubt that 
you are going to have to be carrying around an extra 5-10 pounds of gear 
with the bigger rifle.

It is my understanding that there is some griping after Afghanistan about 
the M4's performance.  Its lack of "stopping power" and penetration is being 
critisized.  With the 62 grain bullet, I think the muzzle velocity is only 
like 2900 fps.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F116kY5TetpIuPHDXE20001de7d@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting
>results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting
>dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or
>.308?  Or something else?

Using soft points, .308 (7.62)is actually probably overkill a bit for (human 
sized) deer.  Something in the .257 to .284 (7mm) range is adequate.  Most 
people still go with .30 caliber, because it is popular and it gives a 
little margin for error.  .308 is more appropriate for larger game, like elk 
(400 + pounds, with a much heavier bone structure).  It is important to keep 
in mind that when the US Army went to .30 caliber cartridges, they thought 
it was still important to stop a horse.  I think their choice goes a little 
overboard for infantry.  The Army has thought about going to a 7mm cartridge 
twice.  The first time, between the wars, it was decided that it would be a 
mistake to make all of the 30-06 ammo laying around obsolete.  The second 
time, under pressure from the British after WWII, the Army was still in awe 
of the Garand's performance and decided to go with 30-06 ballistics in a 
shorter package.

Then they went to .22.  Go figure.  The British were not too pleased.  And 
the rest of the Western world ended up with 7.62x51 rifles that are 
difficult to control, to put in lightly, on full-auto.

IMHO an assault rifle in the 6.5-7mm range and a velocity of 2800 fps would 
be a fine weapon.  Good for deer too.

.223 is largely considered underpowered for deer of the size you mention.  
It is legal where I live, but one problem you run into is that you must use 
soft points and they will not yeild sufficient penetration.  I read an 
article last year by a guy who went and shot a bunch of deer with centerfire 
.22s, and his conclusion was that the results were good so long as (1) you 
use bullets that hold together well, like Nosler partitions, and (2) the 
velocity is above 2700 fps, which coincidentally is the critical velocity 
for FMJ ammo too.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>; from ShawnSears@telocity.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:05:34AM -0400
References: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20020410095004.A21459@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:05:34AM -0400, Shawn R Sears wrote:
> 
> Commanders who have given the order to "fix bayonets" to
> scared troops, often notice an increased level of confidence
> and moral. 

This may be related to the visceral fear one feels when faced with a
blade: when on the wielding end, it may possibly feel much more
empowering than a simple rifle does.

I know in my own case that I feel somehow more prepared when carrying
a sword than when carrying a rifle or pistol.  This may even be the
real reason dress swords have survived as long as they have.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I once successfully declined a departmental retreat, saying that on that
day I planned instead to advance.                    --Alan J. Rosenthal

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F215PT3lz5yrFVq9GNS00002f52@hotmail.com>

laning said:

>I've wondered for a long time about getting an AR-15 or similar chambered
>for .308.  How does it perform on full auto?  (I imagine it has issues with
>the barrel overheating more than a heavier weapon would.)

I imagine that full-auto is uncontrollable.  The were only a few thousand of 
the original AR-10s made (for Portugal and the Sudan?), and they only 
weighed like 7 pounds.  I believe the SR-25 and modern AR-10 are heavier, 
like the same as an M14.  To tell you the truth, I am not even sure if they 
make full-auto versions.  It would probably be a little more controllable 
than an M14, even if it was the same weight, because the stock is in line 
with the barrel.

>Rapid semi?

I think you would get good results.  Israel uses the SR-25 as a sniper 
rifle, in conjunction with Remington 700s.

>Is there even such an animal sold commercially?

The SR-25 is made by an outfit called Knight's Armament, and the AR-10 is 
made by Armalite.  Both are for sale to the public; I think the AR-10 can be 
had for as little as $1,000.

>Not that I have any actual use for such a thing.

That is what my wife says about all of this Traveller stuff.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F206POYFSrAuWiqJmdT00013683@hotmail.com>

laning wrote:

>At 08:59 PM 4/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>>On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off some
>>M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and issuing them at
>>the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max 500 yards?) and
>>sniper (800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the guy with the M14 the
>>"designated marksman" or something like that.>
>Glad to hear we're doing that.  It's basically the latest variation on
>something we've at least theoretically been doing for many decades.

I guess the army is experimenting with the same concept, although they are 
using M16s with free floated 18" match barrels, supressors, and Leupold 
2.5-8 scopes.  I don't think these are for general issue, but have gone to 
special forces.  Some of the AP pictures show these weapons in use in 
Afghanistan.

I am sure the Army and Marines will be able to evaluate their respective 
designs, and rationally decide which approach is the best.  ;)

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 10:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 09:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204101603.DTP06500@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>
>It is my understanding that there is some griping after 
>Afghanistan about the M4's performance.  Its lack 
>of "stopping power" and penetration is being 
>critisized.  With the 62 grain bullet, I think the muzzle 
>velocity is only 
>like 2900 fps.
>

There was the same griping about the M4 from the Somalia 
experience.  Some people were hit as many as six times in the 
torso at less than 50 yards, and did not go down, or even 
slow down.  Now, some of the targets were high on khat, which 
is a stimulant, so it's hard to say.  I think of "high" 
people the same way I think of deer - unless you hit them in 
the right spot, they are going to try and run.  

For deer and 4-legged animals, I usually try and hit the 
shoulder, looking for a bone hit.  This means that I must 
have a bullet capable of breaking bone on impact at the 
desired range.

For people, other than a head hit, I'm thinking that 
shattering the pelvis would be very useful, but I'm thinking 
that's a heavier bone than deer shoulder.

It almost makes me think that if you really wanted to be sure 
of putting someone down, you have to hit them in just the 
right spot.  An M4 through the skull is going to put you 
down.  

It's too bad we don't use hunting ammunition in combat.  I 
think that if we had a better optimized bullet, the M4 would 
be fine.  Maybe not very good at armor penetration anymore, 
but great at stopping.  It was said earlier that non-ball 
makes a .308 very deadly.  Sure.  And a .338 even more so.  
But if we're stuck with 5.56mm, then we should redesign the 
round to maximize wounding.  Probably go back to a lighter 
bullet for the M4 (since we're shorter range anyway), maybe 
even 50 grains, and make it a varmint bullet designed to blow 
apart inside the body (to make a temporary cavity a permanent 
one). Get that velocity up, and make sure the round does not 
exit the body.

To paraphrase Apocalypse Now, to prosecute people for war 
crimes (like using hunting ammunition) is like handing out 
speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

 
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 10:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 09:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F11APfrrF69u7tS1RkF00004676@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon says:

>There was the same griping about the M4 from the Somalia
>experience.  Some people were hit as many as six times in the
>torso at less than 50 yards, and did not go down, or even
>slow down.  Now, some of the targets were high on khat, which
>is a stimulant, so it's hard to say.

From what I understand, the guys in Somalia had not yet been issued M4s; 
they had XM177s/CAR-15s with little 10 or 11 inch barrels.  The muzzle 
velocity with those weapons is only like 2500 fps.

In the book Blackhawk Down, one of the Rangers unloads his M60 on a guy and 
it takes a few bursts to put him down.  We ought to issue that Khat to our 
troops!

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 10:58:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 09:58:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <20020410.095929.-78189.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 07:25:02 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com  says
> >
> >= Barista Corrt
> >
> 
> Sounds like you work at Starbucks.

Yea, Starbucks in Startown - Lousy place for coffee, but the actions not
bad.

Just remember to roll the R's in "Corrt" bucko, or I'll have ya tossed
outa here by our new bouncer - Barst Cortor the 7 foot tall 300 lb
Barbarian.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204100809390.28175-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <DAV32eCyWu1MRRNOqcC0001c03c@hotmail.com>

> > Star Wars Name =
> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
> > name
> >
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town
> > where you were born.

Bilsc Guazl  [sigh]

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <200204101709.DTR06672@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>> > Star Wars Name =
>> >
>> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your 
surname for first
>> > name
>> >
>> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of 
the town
>> > where you were born.
>

Trying this again.  John Kwon.  Chapel Hill.  Mother's maiden 
name is Sweezy.

Joh + kw = Johkw
Sw + Cha = Swcha

Johkw Swcha

Not very easy to pronounce.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5@aol.com>

--part1_16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5_boundary
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   Shane writes:
> Star Wars Name =
>
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born.

Hmm..  Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
Using your equation, I'd be:  Shasr Baden

But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

Which for me yields:  Anemet Slabar
I dunno, they're both kinda cool.

   Hmmm, okay, that sounds cool too--lets see what I get :)

   Ethphy Murerw? I dunno... I think I liked Kenmur Ersan better :)
  -Ken Murphy-


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Shane writes:
<BR>&gt; Star Wars Name =
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
<BR>&gt; were born.
<BR>
<BR>Hmm.. &nbsp;Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
<BR>Using your equation, I'd be: &nbsp;Shasr Baden
<BR>
<BR>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
<BR>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
<BR>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name
<BR>
<BR>Which for me yields: &nbsp;Anemet Slabar
<BR>I dunno, they're both kinda cool.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Hmmm, okay, that sounds cool too--lets see what I get :)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Ethphy Murerw? I dunno... I think I liked Kenmur Ersan better :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40@aol.com>

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   Rob wrote:
   When I was younger I spit
chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it
sometime).
 
   It'd be an interesting exercise to see if the skills acquired could be 
generated using CT's "Other" career, or whether you'd have to knockout an 
entirely new set of skill tables--a somewhat scary proposition either way you 
look at it :)
  -Ken-
   Who is currently halfway through his 5th term in a still-as-yet 
undetermined career ;P
   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Rob wrote:
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;When I was younger I spit
<BR>chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it
<BR>sometime).
<BR> 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;It'd be an interesting exercise to see if the skills acquired could be generated using CT's "Other" career, or whether you'd have to knockout an entirely new set of skill tables--a somewhat scary proposition either way you look at it :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Who is currently halfway through his 5th term in a still-as-yet undetermined career ;P
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Craig Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020410143005.F2EB127AB3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0204100927470.24254-100000@hollywood.cinenet.net>

> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 04:49:00 -0700
> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> At 02:22 AM 4/10/02 +0000, you wrote:
> >Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the
> >conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.
>
> In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat
> in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?
>
> Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public
> opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the
> region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.

And a muddled, unrealistic set of goals for the operation.  We went in
with no understanding of Vietnamese history, society, psychology, or
politics, and expected to galvanize the South into a uniform resistance
force and to persuade the North to back off based on our *potential*
ability to stomp them flat.  Nobody ever seems to have considered what
would happen if they called our bluff.

> All of these could be applied to the 1st Interstellar War.  The Vilani
> might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really capable of, or were
> under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder.  ISTR from losing endless
> games of Imperium to Craig that the Imperial governor was beholden to his
> superiors.. asking for the necessary firepower was a big blow to his
> prestige.  Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion snetients would do?

You recall correctly, and in my mind this is sufficient to explain how the
Terrans managed their initial victories while outnumbered and outgunned
thousands to one (taking into account the full Vilani might).  I get the
strong sense that the Ziru Sirka practiced "shoot the messenger"-style
management a great deal; the status quo and normal operations were
the ideal, and regional governors were tacitly expected to report
"everything is okay!" while quietly dealing with any irregularities before
they came to wider attention.  To admit that a situation had come up that
you couldn't handle was taken as a failure of planning or procedure, with
the obvious effects on your career.

I am very strongly of the opinion that the local Vilani governor knew all
about the Terrans; probably several of them did, over the century or two
immediately preceding official contact.  Remember, the ZS was quite used
to encountering minor human races as it expanded, and I'm sure there were
exhaustively documented procedures and case studies on how to proceed with
their integration into the ZS.  The Terrans simply didn't operate
according to the 'rules', and the governor was terrified to report this
fully to his superiors.  The rest is (future) history.

-- 
   |   Craig Berry - http://www.cinenet.net/~cberry/
 --*--  "All that lives is holy." - William Blake
   |


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCELGDOAA.andy@exeus.com>

> But the thing is, I always thought the equation was: 
> Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name 
> First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name 

Rewick Briglo at your service.

Andy Brick
75% of Term 4 done. Aging rolls only a short while away ...
 
 
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.345 / Virus Database: 193 - Release Date: 09/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
Message-ID: <200204101734.DTT01888@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

For a good look at a list of 'munitions' please see

http://www.eurospace.org/usml.pdf

Tedious.  It seems to be whatever may be remotely useful in a 
weapon-related sense.  No plasma guns on the list - yet.

ObTrav: Still wondering how to handle "permits".  Or even the 
law level restrictions (which I think are odd - of course, 
there aren't any real countries where the rules make sense).

It could be worse.  If you want to hunt in Germany you have 
to wear the Keebler Elf outfit.

"It says here on the back of the permit that if I want to 
carry my PGMP in public, I have to wear the "customary" pink 
bike shorts and traditional "penguin" face mask."
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
In-Reply-To: <200204101734.DTT01888@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:34:43PM -0400
References: <200204101734.DTT01888@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020410120024.A21755@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:34:43PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> It could be worse.  If you want to hunt in Germany you have 
> to wear the Keebler Elf outfit.

???

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Friends don't let civilian friends report military affairs.  It
embarrasses the reporter, and grossly misleads the public.
                                                 --Laning

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40@aol.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGMCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1E099.1C0062D0
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	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 Rob wrote: 
  When I was younger I spit 
chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it 
sometime). 

Chicken Spitting?

It sounds like something a lion might do if the chicken tasted fowl. ;-)

-Shawn-

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	charset="us-ascii"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;Rob wrote: =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;When I was=20
younger I spit <BR>chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe =
I'll=20
write it <BR>sometime).&nbsp;<BR><BR></FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Chicken=20
Spitting?</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D601160418-10042002>It=20
sounds like something a lion might do if the chicken tasted fowl.=20
;-)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002>-Shawn-</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
Message-ID: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" wonders
>On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:34:43PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>> 
>> It could be worse.  If you want to hunt in Germany you 
>>have to wear the Keebler Elf outfit.
>
>???
>

When I was stationed in Germany, I wanted to hunt.  So I 
signed up for classes, paid a HUGE chunk of cash for classes, 
fees, etc.  Then I had to hire a guide. No option given 
there. The classes were extensive and mandatory (especially 
considering that the area I was going to hunt in is the size 
of a small park, and is neatly manicured).  At the end, I sat 
with my guide in a plush treestand.

It was mandatory that I wear the lederhosen.  I am glad no 
one has a picture of that.  That outfit is expensive.

And now the guide is instructing me on which deer I can 
shoot, and which are not permitted.

Have to tip the guide as well.  Most expensive deer I ever 
ate.  It's what happens when a culture is based entirely on a 
layered bureaucracy.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
Message-ID: <200204101816.DTU00025@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"John T. Kwon" says
<snip about hunting in Germany>

I could have gone to South Africa and hunted for two weeks, 
airfare included, for what I spent to hunt in Germany.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGMCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>; from ShawnSears@telocity.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:07:54PM -0400
References: <99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40@aol.com> <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGMCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20020410122225.B21755@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:07:54PM -0400, Shawn R Sears wrote:
> 
> Chicken Spitting?

There is (or was--it may have gone out of business) a chain called
Boston Chicken (later Boston Market) whose main draw was its
rotisserie chicken.  I prepared the chicken.

The way it works is that Sysco would deliver great plastic boxes of 16
chickens each.  There was a great plastic bag in the box which held
the chickens and the flavouring they were packed in.

I would go to the freezer and haul out 128 or 256 chickens (8 or 16
boxes) and wheel the pallet over to my workstation.  I'd then prepare
the garlic marinade: a gallon of apple cider vinegar and a package of
this garlic/sugar power mixture.  Then I would repeat the following
process over and over:

1) Open box
2) Slit open bag
3) Remove chicken
4) Slide hand into icy cold chicken and pull out any fat
5) Dunk chicken in marinade
6) Slide chicken onto spit and fix with spike
7) Repeat 3-6 thrice (four chickens to a spit)
8) Repeat 1-7 until no more boxes

It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over
me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar.

I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
For 93 million miles, there is nothing between the sun and my shadow
except me.  I'm always getting in the way of something...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
In-Reply-To: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:10:51PM -0400
References: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020410123043.C21755@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:10:51PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> It's what happens when a culture is based entirely on a layered
> bureaucracy.

LOL.  My favourite history prof in college told the story of trying to
name his son while he and his wife were living in Germany.  They
wanted to name him Calvert, after his wife's maiden name.  Apparently
one must take one's names from a great book of approved names--of
course Calvert wasn't in it.  So he asks them what he needs to do.
The clerk goes back to her superior and they discuss it for awhile,
then she returns and states that if he can get a letter from the
American consul stating that Calvert is an approved American name,
then he can name his son that.

So he went on down to the consul, they all had a good laugh, and the
letter informing the German registry that Calvert is approved for use
in America was sent.

OTOH, I daresay Germany has no-one name Moon Unit or Dweezil, so the
policy is not entirely incorrect.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Farewell Romance the Soldier spoke
By skill-of-sword we may not win
But scuffle 'midst the unclean smoke
Of arquebuse and culverin
Honor is lost and none may tell
Who paid good blows, Romance farewell.
                            --Kipling

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <200204101843.DTV03242@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert reveals chicken spitting
<snip>

I, and probably others, (Doug?) have done the burning of 
human waste thing.

Nothing like stirring burning human waste, sloshing the 
liquid around, trying to find a "clean" spot to grab the can, 
being permeated by the stench of diesel, smoke, and shit 
(pardon my French).

It's something that you were put on a duty roster for, so you 
didn't get it every day.  But it always came around.  When we 
started, I asked if we were going to be issued some good dope 
to smoke while we were burning the stuff.  After all, we had 
seen that in Platoon...

The powers that be were not amused.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020410191917.B3737@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 10, 2002 07:19:17 PM
Message-ID: <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is
> > that if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we
> > would prefer that neither of them drop.
> 
> Yes, that's one effect.  For example, light photons have sufficient
> energy to cause certain chemical changes in pigments in the eye;
> that's how we see.
> 
> If the chemical energies are a hundred times lower and Planck's
> constant is unchanged, a light photon doesn't just affect sensitive
> pigments, it rips electrons out of stable molecules and breaks
> chemical bonds.  That's what we normally call "ionising radiation".
> 
> We can't just use light that has a hundred times lower frequency,
> because it has a hundred times longer wavelength.  OK, I guess we can,
> but it involves changing the speed of light...

I get the feeling that you're trying to change constants rather than
looking at the problem as a closed system where all four fundamental
forces are modified in the same ratio (actually, I'm still hazy on
whether or not gravity should be included in this). To do so, I think
we really need to look at the most simple problems, involving only a
single atom or a pair of atoms. Otherwise, we may be dealing with a
system that is too complex to really analyze completely. I'd like to
return to the previous example, involving electron orbits. I'm going
to reiterate from my prevous post.

you write:
> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
> well.

Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
energy level of an electron in an atom?

I've heard that the atomic nucleus is held together by the interplay
between the strong and weak forces, the strong force keeping the
positively charged protons together while the weak force tries to
rip them apart. I suppose that since this idea of taming the quantum
foam should reduce both forces equally, the stability of the
nucleus would be uneffected (the effects of the strong & weak force
reductions should cancel out).

However, I'm not sure how to handle the problem of electrons, which
you mention above. But I'll try to tackle it anyway, so what follows
it totally off the cuff. I'm guessing that the electromagnetic force
keeps electrons attracted to the positively charged atomic nucleus
and repulsed by each other, hence accounting for their movements
(of course, this probably falls apart at some level, but bear with
me). Well, I'm just guessing here, but if their movements are determined
by the repulsive & attractive effects of the same force (electromagnetic),
then reducing that force should have no net effect, as reduction in
repulsion will be perfectly offset by the reduction in attraction.
In short, and I'm no physics major, so correct me if I'm wrong,
once again what I would expect is that these changes cancel out,
resulting in there being no need to change Planck's constant.

Am I totally wrong here? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 13:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 12:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>

At 08:03 PM 4/10/02 +0800, you wrote:

>So IMHO the ships would also be fitted with Bussard Rams to scoop up the
>hydrogen found in the space between arms. This would not be used for the
>HePLar thruster but to refuel the jump drive and power plant. (Though this
>makes the ship even bigger as it does have to carry enough maneuver fuel to
>get up to a velocity where the Ram Scoop functions.
>
>Any ideas?

A very interesting idea.

My first reaction to the problem was a squadron of ships, most of which are 
various kinds of rider configuration.  Including one configuration that 
carries a smaller ship, capable of jump-4 or higher and maneuver-1 and 
specializing in jumping with reusable modular fuel tanks and dropping them 
off, then going back to fetch more.  Eventually, they've dumped off a big 
enough fuel cache to support the squadron as it jumps on through.

Perhaps, only one ship one would jump through first.  A ship designed to be 
ready for trouble at the other end if trouble happens to be there.  Then it 
jumps back.  If the other end doesn't have a fuel source either, it will 
have to either carry enough fuel for two jumps or do a reduced jump so that 
it keeps enough fuel to jump back to the fuel cache.  All very tedious.  If 
necessary, the first fuel cache can be used as a jump off to establish a 
second fuel cache farther on.  Even more tedious, but doable.  That should 
get the squadron or at least one lead vessel of the squadron across a 
pretty big gap.

Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination 
star system.  Added to an astronomical database that must be built up far 
beyond what we presently have managed on Earth and from our lowly little TL 
7 or 8, undersized, spacecraft and only observing from the vantage of one 
solar system.

The exploring squadron probably will not have to do much guessing about 
fuel sources along the way, and will have their route well mapped.  The big 
surprises will be what come from close-in observations when they arrive in 
a system, and who/what life they meet along the way.

Any of the astronomy gearheads able to tell us anything about the average 
density and class of the stars in that region?

Are there rules that indicate how much space must be allotted for spare 
parts and repair equipment necessary to keep a ship provisioned for 
decades?  And just who the heck would pay for a trip that won't be heard 
from until after the financier is dead?  (Government, I guess.)  Who the 
heck would _go_ on the trip?  You need a military-style command structure 
to stay organized and on target during the trip, but can you feasibly get 
entire families of qualified crew to submit themselves to living out the 
remainder of their lives that way?  Or instead of families, will it go the 
opposite direction and be only people who've left all earthly attachments 
behind (lol) and are equipped with a plentiful supply of anagathics?  I 
don't recall anything that specifies the age limit for someone on a regular 
regimen of anagathics...Go out forty years and then turn around and come 
back?  My questions are spawning faster than I can type them out.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>

At 08:03 PM 4/10/02 +0800, you wrote:

>So IMHO the ships would also be fitted with Bussard Rams to scoop up the
>hydrogen found in the space between arms. This would not be used for the
>HePLar thruster but to refuel the jump drive and power plant. (Though this
>makes the ship even bigger as it does have to carry enough maneuver fuel to
>get up to a velocity where the Ram Scoop functions.
>
>Any ideas?

A very interesting idea.

My first reaction to the problem was a squadron of ships, most of which are 
various kinds of rider configuration.  Including one configuration that 
carries a smaller ship, capable of jump-4 or higher and maneuver-1 and 
specializing in jumping with reusable modular fuel tanks and dropping them 
off, then going back to fetch more.  Eventually, they've dumped off a big 
enough fuel cache to support the squadron as it jumps on through.

Perhaps, only one ship one would jump through first.  A ship designed to be 
ready for trouble at the other end if trouble happens to be there.  Then it 
jumps back.  If the other end doesn't have a fuel source either, it will 
have to either carry enough fuel for two jumps or do a reduced jump so that 
it keeps enough fuel to jump back to the fuel cache.  All very tedious.  If 
necessary, the first fuel cache can be used as a jump off to establish a 
second fuel cache farther on.  Even more tedious, but doable.  That should 
get the squadron or at least one lead vessel of the squadron across a 
pretty big gap.

Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination 
star system.  Added to an astronomical database that must be built up far 
beyond what we presently have managed on Earth and from our lowly little TL 
7 or 8, undersized, spacecraft and only observing from the vantage of one 
solar system.

The exploring squadron probably will not have to do much guessing about 
fuel sources along the way, and will have their route well mapped.  The big 
surprises will be what come from close-in observations when they arrive in 
a system, and who/what life they meet along the way.

Any of the astronomy gearheads able to tell us anything about the average 
density and class of the stars in that region?

Are there rules that indicate how much space must be allotted for spare 
parts and repair equipment necessary to keep a ship provisioned for 
decades?  And just who the heck would pay for a trip that won't be heard 
from until after the financier is dead?  (Government, I guess.)  Who the 
heck would _go_ on the trip?  You need a military-style command structure 
to stay organized and on target during the trip, but can you feasibly get 
entire families of qualified crew to submit themselves to living out the 
remainder of their lives that way?  Or instead of families, will it go the 
opposite direction and be only people who've left all earthly attachments 
behind (lol) and are equipped with a plentiful supply of anagathics?  I 
don't recall anything that specifies the age limit for someone on a regular 
regimen of anagathics...Go out forty years and then turn around and come 
back?  My questions are spawning faster than I can type them out.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Huxton)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>

Idle speculation from an idle speculator, and it must have been asked 
before...

We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any upper limit 
("that's no moon...")

I had a sudden vision of a jump-capable planet working its way around the 
galaxy sucking gas giants dry between jumps.

Any gearheads got a spreadsheet that can handle this?

Oh, no cheating of course, you have to do this using LBB Book 2 rules at TL13 
and bring the cost in at under 100MCr ;-)

- Richard Huxton



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:09:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:09:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F14rptKlUtfRZGHP4JZ00005b46@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public 
opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the 
region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf."

     "All of these could be applied to the 1st Interstellar War."


Mr. Berry,

     True, but I still have a hard time swallowing it all.
     We've got the constant drum beat in canon about the Vilani "way of war" 
being brutally pragmatic.  They use hostages, have no qualms about nukes, 
target civilians, etc., etc., anything tactic that is cost effective.
     The Ziru Sirka, or it's direct antecedents, were able to put the Vilani 
boot on the neck of quite a number of species and they've kept it there for 
millennia.  The fact that the Geonee, Suerrat, Syleans, et. al. are still 
being kept down at the same time the Terrans show up tells me that the 
Vilani could still get the job done.

     "The Vilani might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really 
capable of, or were under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder."

     After losing the first two Interstellar Wars and visiting the Sol 
system, the Vilani should have known what the Terrans were really capable 
of.  GT:RoF also mentions that the Vilani, when faced with the bewildering 
welter of Terran cultures and genotypes, thought they were facing an 
alliance of several minor human races.  That "threat" alone should have 
spurred some sort of response.
     It's the dichotomy that get's me wondering.  We've got ZS governors 
still keeping the boot on the neck of umpteen minor races, we've got the 
coreward governors arming and using Vargr mercs in political power games 
against each other, and, at the same time, we've got governor after governor 
after on the Rim behaving completely unlike the others throughout the ZS and 
losing piddling wars to a minor race nearly totally confined to a single 
system.

     "ISTR from losing endless games of Imperium to Craig that the Imperial 
governor was beholden to his superiors... asking for the necessary firepower 
was a big blow to his prestige."

     Don't confuse play balance with realpolitik.  As the Vilani player, I 
could spend the prestige points to build larger/more warships early on and 
end up occupying Terra.  The VP table would then paint me as the loser and 
it would be right up to a point.  The Vilani regional governor would "lose" 
but, with Terra occupied, the Ziru Sirka would have actually won.  The 
reverse holds true for the Terran player.  He "wins" because the Vilani 
governor lost too many prestige points, but whose home system is occupied by 
whom?

     "Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion sentients would do?"

     But they'd done it in the past, i.e. the Sky Raiders, and were 
currently threatening to do it to others, the many minor races being held 
down, so why didn't it happen to Sol?  The Ziru Sirka had the numbers, it 
had better technology, and it was chillingly ruthless.  How did it happen to 
lose?
     I'll take my slightly canon-bending answer to that from Cortez' 
conquest of the Aztecs; the Terrans had LOTS of "native" allies.  We all 
learned, wrongly, in school about how Cortez, with only a hundred men, some 
clumsy firelocks, and a few dozen horses, took down the Aztec empire.  Well, 
that makes for good propaganda, but in reality Cortez had tens of thousands 
of native allies, perhaps over 100K of them.
     Cortez visited the Valley of Mexico twice, the first time escaping by 
the skin of his teeth and the second time at the head of an invading army 
nearly 100K strong.  He and his allies built entire fleets to assault 
water-girted capital city of the Aztecs.  The seige went on for months 
before Montezuma finally surrendered.
     IMTU, the "real" story of the Interstellar Wars happens along those 
lines.  The Terrans are greeted at Banard's by a Vilani governor who sees 
them just another tool in his political power games.  The Terrans are 
allowed to expand, are used as deniable mercs in all sorts of Bureau 
bun-fights, and generally bide their time.  Once they feel they're strong 
enough AND they've contacted and recruited lots of those Vilani-oppressed 
minor races, then they strike.  The Terran Confederation wins over the Ziru 
Sirka thanks in large part to their allies; Terran money and Terran gumption 
stir the drink, but the allies provide the mass needed.
     Once the conquest is completed, the Terrans begin to downplay their 
allies contributions and eventually take the Vilani's place as top dog, just 
as the Spanish did with their own allies in Mexico.  Because winners write 
history, the story gets slowly twisted and diluted throughout the Rule of 
Man until it becomes recieved wisdom, an old wives' tale about the 
Interstellar Wars.  The Solomani can't acknowledge how things really 
happened, it would shoot their racist twaddle right out the airlock.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:10:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:10:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020410095004.A21459@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020410195114.49017.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:05:34AM -0400, Shawn R
> Sears wrote:
> > 
> > Commanders who have given the order to "fix
> bayonets" to
> > scared troops, often notice an increased level of
> confidence
> > and moral. 
> 
> This may be related to the visceral fear one feels
> when faced with a
> blade: when on the wielding end, it may possibly
> feel much more
> empowering than a simple rifle does.
> 
> I know in my own case that I feel somehow more
> prepared when carrying
> a sword than when carrying a rifle or pistol.  This
> may even be the
> real reason dress swords have survived as long as
> they have.
> 
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> 
  >>
  That's easily explained: Swords never run out of
ammo, and are a lot harder to break... ;-P~

         MACessna
  >>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:12:21 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F11APfrrF69u7tS1RkF00004676@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155047.01de3120@pop.wizard.net>

Sam D wrote:

>In the book Blackhawk Down, one of the Rangers unloads his M60 on a guy 
>and it takes a few bursts to put him down.  We ought to issue that Khat to 
>our troops!

Give credit to the guy, not the drug.  Nobody at TL 8 or lower makes a drug 
that can turn an average soldier into the Terminator.  I don't discount the 
drug making a difference, but like that.  For at least those last few 
seconds of his life, that poor guy was one of the bravest and toughest 
people in the world.  Drugged or not.

Or, it may just be that he was being spun around so much he hadn't fallen, 
and the machinegunner was too anxious to wait for him to fall and just kept 
firing.  Weird flukes like that kind of thing happen fairly often.

It's a really ugly business to be in.

--Laning

PS  Oh and thanks for the advice on SR-25 and AR-10.  Now if we can only 
get my wife to be able to sleep at night if there's a firearm in the 
house.  Not gonna happen.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D99A5C.382DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20409.224111.2G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155951.01dc24b0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn on a 65 gram instead of 65 grain bullet:
>I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.
>
>69,562 Joules of energy
>1,130 joules of free recoil
>
>25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)


Tod, what was the free recoil of that elephant rifle again?  For 
comparison.  I found your earlier calculations on the M1, M16, and gauss 
rifle, which were two orders of magnitude lower and then some compared to 
the above 65 gram bullet.

Hm, I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and plug in numbers for known 
weapons and science fiction weapons from time to time.  Then post on a Web 
site so all interested parties can reference it from time to time.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:15:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:15:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>

From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>

     "It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over 
me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar."


Mr. Uhl,

     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what lobsters 
eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!
     Underwater, where those disgusting little buggers live, oils acts as 
odors do for we land animals.  Thus, the bait in each trap must release LOTS 
of nice oils for our shell-bound critters to sense and trail back to the 
trap.  Also, the bait must be refreshed every other day or so.  (The traps 
need to be checked that frequently too, the lobsters tend to eat one 
another.)
     Preparing bait requires:

One 55 gallon drum
One heavy cleaver
One oar or paddle
One piece of wood you don't mind ruining
Lots of "trash" fish
One strong stomach

     Roughly "cuisinart" each fish by chopping it briskly and roughly with 
the cleaver.  Either leave the pieces hanging together by strips of skin 
and/or bone (the mark of a real pro) or let the chunks collect on your 
cutting board.  When the chunks pile too high, drp them in the drum and tamp 
down hard with the paddle.  Repeat until you run out of fish or ruj out of 
drum.
     The next bit is the most important.  Seal the drum up and then let it 
sit in the sun for a couple of weeks at a minimum.  Every once in a while, 
pop the top and give the contents a violent stirring.
     After the bait has "matured" enough, you can put it to use in the bait 
"purses" for your traps.  You either hump the drum aboard or a couple of 5 
gallon pails of the stuff when you go out to check the traps.  As each trap 
is hauled aboard, you have a freshly filled, plastic purse ready to re-bait 
the trap.  The lobsterman removes and measures the damn things while you 
fish out the used purse and put to fresh on it it's place.  Then the empty 
trap and fresh bait gets heaved overboard.
     It get pretty routine after a while and your nose shuts down.  I 
suspect it must be a little like working in a slaughter house.  You just 
don't notice certain things anymore.
     The first time I opened a bait barrel, I fed the fishes until I ran out 
of "chum".  Ma Whipsnade wouldn't allow me to wear my lobstering clothes 
anywhere near the house.  I had to change in the shed out back and run into 
the cellar to wash in a galvanized tub there.  You don't get paid in money 
either, instead a certain number of trpas are "yours" and you can keep or 
sell whatever is in them.  Not a bad job, I got a boat and car out of it, 
but I was happy to start in the screw machine shop once I was legal.  
Chlorinated oil is nothing compared to bait!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen



_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:19:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:19:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <20020410.133548.-8347.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hey Everybody,

Please feel free to utilize my two new characters IYTU.
If you do, please pass back any updated stats, thank you.

Barista Corrt [roll the R's] - Vilani Hybrid [pick any world]
UPP 768786
18 years young
Very attractive, 
shoulder length blond hair, green eyes
5' 5" 115 lbs
34B-24-34
soft spoken, but tough
New job as a barmaid at Starbucks in Startown.


Barst Cortor - BarbarianBrave
UPP A98342
30 years
Survival-0, Sword-1 [broadsword], Hand Combat-2
Brutish appearance, scared muscular body
long black hair, black eyes
7 foot tall 300 lb
50" chest, 34 - 34
gruff, hash demeanor
New job as a bouncer at Starbucks in Startown.
[due to the brawl at the haul across town]


Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20410.140930.5r1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> jimv wrote:
>> Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
>> an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
>> move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
>> suppression, they move toward each other much faster
>> than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
>> I wrong?
>
> If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
> on each ion, then it is true.
>
> If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
> to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
> factor of 10.

Which causes *other* problems, because that changes the ratio of the
electromagnetic forces to the nuclear forces in the atom. And changing
the strength of the nuclear forces affects the stability of the nucleus
in other ways. 

Also, there are other "forces" involved in chemical reactions that
depend on the strength of the charges, but not on the *square* of the
strength (ie the don't follow an inverse square law).

So changing the charge affects those also. And not in proportion to
each other.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:23:56 2002
Subject: [TML] testing, Ignore
Message-ID: <B8DA068C.393E0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:26:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:26:46 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155951.01dc24b0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8DA0857.393E8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 1:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn on a 65 gram instead of 65 grain bullet:
>> I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.
>> 
>> 69,562 Joules of energy
>> 1,130 joules of free recoil
>> 
>> 25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)
> 
> 
> Tod, what was the free recoil of that elephant rifle again?  For
> comparison.  I found your earlier calculations on the M1, M16, and gauss
> rifle, which were two orders of magnitude lower and then some compared to
> the above 65 gram bullet.
> 
> Hm, I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and plug in numbers for known
> weapons and science fiction weapons from time to time.  Then post on a Web
> site so all interested parties can reference it from time to time.

a 9 lbs rifle firing a 500 gn slug at 2100 fps has a free recoil energy of
85 Joules.  Just use the form at http://travellercentral.com/rules/ke.html.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:29:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:29:07 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
References: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4A451.4020608@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Have to tip the guide as well.  Most expensive deer I ever 
> ate.  It's what happens when a culture is based entirely on a 
> layered bureaucracy.

That's what happens when you've had no real wilderness for hundreds and 
hundreds of years...you might as well have gone 'hunting' in a corral.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:30:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:30:34 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B8D9F3BB.38CFC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:32:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (listmom)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:32:01 2002
Subject: [TML] test
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204101430010.1171-100000@rhylanor>

this is a test


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:33:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Nick Wright)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:33:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
Message-ID: <001101c1e0d7$3860c120$a8fb883e@fg>

The BBC have reported on what the nattily dressed US soldier will be wearing
on tomorrow's battlefield.  It is a bit worrying though that uniforms will
be "nearly invisible" (4th para).  Where's the Sarge going to sew his
stripes?

Check out

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1908000/1908729.stm

I remain, etc, etc.

Nick Wright


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] List Problems
Message-ID: <B8DA09B3.393F4%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Sorry about the delayed mail, all.  Seems I has some file locking issues
with the list server.  I initially assumed the problem was do to some
systems changes I made, so I did a roll-back only to fins the prblem was
unrelated.

Mail seems to be flowing now.  Please report problems to
listmom@travellercentral.com

Thanks for your patience.

Tod


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:38:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:38:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Counterterrorism
References: <B8DA068C.393E0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <019c01c1e0e0$04f78130$09d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Gentles,

In addition to creating the new TNE sourcebook, finishing up the truly
fabulous T20 rules, and making sure the cats get fed, I'm also doing some
work in counter-terrorism.

Sadly, I don't get to shoot suicide bombers or anything. What I'm doing is
helping promote an organisaton called NSI which is dedicatd to various
anti-terrorist activities.

To this end I need to place articles and generally promote interest in the
organisation.

Anyone whho feels that they may be able to help, or with something to offer,
please contact me offlist.

The technology to prevent a new Sept 11th exists now, yet many of the
measures taken by our governments are nothing but placebos. We could change
that.

Anyone?

Regards

MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020410191917.B3737@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020411083544.A5842@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> I get the feeling that you're trying to change constants rather than
> looking at the problem as a closed system where all four fundamental
> forces are modified in the same ratio (actually, I'm still hazy on
> whether or not gravity should be included in this).

Gravity is essentially irrelevant, barring any unknown effects of
quantum gravity.  Besides, you would have to *strengthen* gravity to
get the same relative effects.  So it shouldn't have the same ratio as
other forces anyway.

Apart from that, your goal is to have the behaviour of atoms (and more
complex systems) behave in the same way as before inertial
suppression, correct?  This requires more than just changing the
strength of forces.


> To do so, I think we really need to look at the most simple
> problems, involving only a single atom or a pair of atoms.

OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
just one simple example.

Hence inertial suppression requires more than just changing the
strength of forces.  If you want the atoms to behave the same way, you
need to alter fundamental constants as well.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:42:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:42:45 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155047.01de3120@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018477349.495.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> 
> Give credit to the guy, not the drug.  Nobody at TL 8 or lower makes a drug
>  that can turn an average soldier into the Terminator.  I don't discount
> the  drug making a difference, but like that.  For at least those last few 
> seconds of his life, that poor guy was one of the bravest and toughest 
> people in the world.  Drugged or not.

Actually, no, the drug could easily be responsible.  Much of the reason for
people falling down when shot is that they know they ought to, and drugs can
dull the pain response and/or make you too stupid to realize you've been shot.

The fact that he stood there are got shot several times by an M60 may suggest
why the use of combat drugs is discouraged.  People who are heavily drugged are
not usually known for their good tactics.
> 
> Or, it may just be that he was being spun around so much he hadn't fallen, 
> and the machinegunner was too anxious to wait for him to fall and just kept
>  firing.  Weird flukes like that kind of thing happen fairly often.
> 
> It's a really ugly business to be in.
> 
> --Laning
> 
> PS  Oh and thanks for the advice on SR-25 and AR-10.  Now if we can only 
> get my wife to be able to sleep at night if there's a firearm in the 
> house.  Not gonna happen.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:44:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:44:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
References: <20020410195114.49017.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <014a01c1e0de$3d265b50$09d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>   >>
>   That's easily explained: Swords never run out of
> ammo, and are a lot harder to break... ;-P~
> 

A broken sword is still a weapon to be respected. This I know....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:46:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:46:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
 <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410182447.0390c460@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:37 PM 4/10/2002, laning wrote:
>Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
>detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination

Classic Traveller allowed a starship to determine if gas giants were 
present in another star system from a 1 parsec range.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:49:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:49:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGNCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Craig Berry <cberry@cine.net>
>
>You recall correctly, and in my mind this is sufficient to explain how the
>Terrans managed their initial victories while outnumbered and outgunned
>thousands to one (taking into account the full Vilani might).  I get the
>strong sense that the Ziru Sirka practiced "shoot the messenger"-style
>management a great deal; the status quo and normal operations were

This is my opinion, as well.  China in the 1700s-1800s operated in much the
same way.

>I am very strongly of the opinion that the local Vilani governor knew all
>about the Terrans; probably several of them did, over the century or two
>immediately preceding official contact.  Remember, the ZS was quite used
>to encountering minor human races as it expanded, and I'm sure there were
>exhaustively documented procedures and case studies on how to proceed with
>their integration into the ZS.  The Terrans simply didn't operate
>according to the 'rules', and the governor was terrified to report this
>fully to his superiors.  The rest is (future) history.

I think the Vegans are what we in contemporary times call the Grays.  They
have been surreptitiously visiting Earth for a while to help us develop into
a human force that can get rid of the Vilani, with whom the Vegans have
never really gotten along.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Lost Causes
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17951@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

The Dougster:
In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat 
in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?

Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public 
opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the 
region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.

Mikey:
The US were never really going to win that one. As Uncle Ho is fondly
remembered saying 'I am willing to lose 10 men for each one of yours'. Hell,
I think the toll in Vietnam for the conflict was about a million on the
Communist side. So given loses of 50k for the US that's like 20 to 1. 

Besides it's a bit hard to 'save' a country that won't save itself. 

My 0.02 of course, so don't roast me slowly over a verbal BBQ.

I'm studying Vietnam now at uni. I particularly enjoyed the battle of Ap Bac
(?), which got turned into a major propaganda piece about the South wiping
the floor with Communist insurgents. When the smoke cleared they found just
3 bodies....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:56:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:56:39 2002
Subject: [TML] test
References: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204101430010.1171-100000@rhylanor>
Message-ID: <3CB4BE9A.1155267C@premier.net>


listmom wrote:
> 
> this is a test

Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled in terror, and you
would not have been informed.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:59:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:59:21 2002
Subject: [TML] test 5, ignore
Message-ID: <B8DA0282.393D4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:00:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:00:52 2002
Subject: [TML] another test
Message-ID: <B8DA059C.393DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:03:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:03:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20410.144847.1G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> jimv wrote:
>> > in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is
>> > that if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we
>> > would prefer that neither of them drop.
>> 
>> Yes, that's one effect.  For example, light photons have sufficient
>> energy to cause certain chemical changes in pigments in the eye;
>> that's how we see.
>> 
>> If the chemical energies are a hundred times lower and Planck's
>> constant is unchanged, a light photon doesn't just affect sensitive
>> pigments, it rips electrons out of stable molecules and breaks
>> chemical bonds.  That's what we normally call "ionising radiation".
>> 
>> We can't just use light that has a hundred times lower frequency,
>> because it has a hundred times longer wavelength.  OK, I guess we can,
>> but it involves changing the speed of light...
>
> I get the feeling that you're trying to change constants rather than
> looking at the problem as a closed system where all four fundamental
> forces are modified in the same ratio (actually, I'm still hazy on
> whether or not gravity should be included in this). To do so, I think
> we really need to look at the most simple problems, involving only a
> single atom or a pair of atoms. Otherwise, we may be dealing with a
> system that is too complex to really analyze completely. I'd like to
> return to the previous example, involving electron orbits. I'm going
> to reiterate from my prevous post.

The problem is, different things depend on *different* ratios. 

Some depend on things like the charge to mass ratio of particles.
Others depend on things like the ratios of the *squares* of of things.
And some are things like square roots. Or weirder ratios. 

You *can't* make them all match. 
 
> you write:
>> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
>> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
>> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
>> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
>> well.
>
> Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
> energy level of an electron in an atom?

Momentum, charge, Planck's constant, maybe a few other things.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:05:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:05:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20410.141449.7E5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> jimv wrote:
>> > Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
>> > an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
>> > move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
>> > suppression, they move toward each other much faster
>> > than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
>> > I wrong?
>> 
>> If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
>> on each ion, then it is true.
>> 
>> If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
>> to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
>> factor of 10.
>
> Under the premise of the inertial suppression idea, inertia
> is defined as the electromagnetic drag caused by mass accellerating
> through the zero point field (essentially due to subatomic interactions
> with virtual photons). So, if this were the case, it might hold true
> that the EM force would be reduced by inertial suppression, at least if
> one assumes that EM forces are transferred via virtual photons, sort of
> like the way waves on the ocean are transferred through the water
> molecules making up the waves (you physicists on the list can probably
> laugh at this statement... I'm really showing my ignorance here).

That's a hypothesis that doesn't have a lot of backing. Nor are matters
that simple.

> Anyway,
> off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to make this
> work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the square-root of the
> inertial suppression factor. If we make that handwave, which is
> certainly a god-being-nice type to rule to make, then I'd imagine
> that we've got gravity & EM both covered. However, if anyone can
> provide a counterexample, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Alas, you've just changed to speed of light by doing this. 

Then there are thins like the fine structure constant:

u*c*e^2/2h

where
u = permeability of a vacuum
c = speed of light in a vacuum
e = charge of the electron
h = Plank's constant

Change the value of *that* and all sorts of stuff goes to hell.

Which means your changes have to be such that its value remains
unchanged. By the time you are done dinking around with that, things
have gotten *way* too complicated.

> Also, there's still the weak and strong forces to think about. Since
> weak is purportedly linked to EM, one would expect some sort of similar
> square-root drop off. As for the strong force, I have no idea. -Jim

The weak force and the electromagnetic force are different aspects of
the electro-weak force just as electric and magnetic field effects are
different aspects of the electromagnetic force (see Maxwells
equations).

The strong force and gravity (and the color force that quarks exert on
each other) may or may not be realated to the electr-weak forces in
various ways.

We can't achieve the energies required to check out the strong and
color forces, and gravity is so damned *weak* it's hard to experiment
with.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:07:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:07:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20410.143404.7i6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> You should likewise reduce the strength of the strong and weak forces.
>
> Okay... so I guess we need to suppose that all these forces get dropped
> by the same factor.

Alas, some effects that are important to trivial things like *life*
depend on various odd *powers* (square, square rooe 3/2 power, etc) of
the strength of these forces.

>> Now, just Planck's constant to deal with :)
>
> Okay... I'm totally clueless, but:
> E=hv, where h = planck's constant and v = frequency
> (note: i have no idea what i'm taking about)
> in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is that
> if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we would prefer
> that neither of them drop.

Another form has Planck's constant equalling the product of the
uncertainty in the positon and the uncertainty in the momentum of a
particle.

Planck's constant is behind *all* quantum effects. and it basicly says
how "granular" the universe is. 

Changing it by *tiny* amounts would have *major* effects on the way the
universe works.

>> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
>> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
>> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
>> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
>> well.
>
> Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
> energy level of an electron in an atom?

> I've heard that the atomic nucleus is held together by the interplay
> between the strong and weak forces, the strong force keeping the
> positively charged protons together while the weak force tries to
> rip them apart.

No. The electromagnetic repulsion of all those protons in the nucleus
tries to rip it apart. The weak force does stuff like hold neutrons
together (a neutron is effectively a "bound state" odf a proton, an
electron and an anti-neutrino). 

> I suppose that since this idea of taming the quantum
> foam should reduce both forces equally, the stability of the
> nucleus would be uneffected (the effects of the strong & weak force
> reductions should cancel out).

If only it was that simple. Among other things, the strong and weak
forces *don't* oney the inverse square law *and* they have a maximum
range. This is because they use exchange particles that have mass, as
opposed to the massless exchange particles (photons and gravitons) used
by the electromagnetic and gravitational forces. 

Oh shit....

There's another way to read that equation you gave up above. 

E = h*v

E = uncertainty in energy of a system
v = time interval
h = Planck's constant.

That's *how* exchange particles work. The energy of the virtual
particle is higher the shorter the time it has to exist (or vice
versa). Changing Planck's constant messes with that too. 

> However, I'm not sure how to handle the problem of electrons, which
> you mention above. But I'll try to tackle it anyway, so what follows
> it totally off the cuff. I'm guessing that the electromagnetic force
> keeps electrons attracted to the positively charged atomic nucleus
> and repulsed by each other, hence accounting for their movements
> (of course, this probably falls apart at some level, but bear with
> me). Well, I'm just guessing here, but if their movements are determined
> by the repulsive & attractive effects of the same force (electromagnetic),
> then reducing that force should have no net effect, as reduction in
> repulsion will be perfectly offset by the reduction in attraction.
> In short, and I'm no physics major, so correct me if I'm wrong,
> once again what I would expect is that these changes cancel out,
> resulting in there being no need to change Planck's constant.

Afraid not. 

For one thing, electrons are just barely what we normally think of as
particles. They aren't little billiard balls. They are more in the
nature of fuzzyt little "clouds". The electron is most likely *here*,
but could be clear over *there*. More like a ball of fog than anything
we are familiar wuith from everyday life.

I'd need a lot of time with books (and more recent exposure to quantum
mechanics) to even begn to figure out what would happen at the atomic
and subatomic levels.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Worst Job in the world
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17953@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Robert A. Uhl
It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over
me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar.

I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

Mikey:
Here in government service we like to bitch and moan about our lot in life.
I just forwarded this on to my co-workers to remind us all we don't have it
so bad.

Thanks man. 

PS I once got fired from cotton chipping, one of the more menial jobs in
life and one where ex convicts can find gainful employment. I was forced to
hitch into town (30 klicks) and was picked up by an insane Kiwi shearer (he
looked like John English for you Oz types), whose dayglo orange combi was
circa 60's and decorated in peace stickers. He proceeded to laugh manically
and go for three animals with his vehicle that made the mistake in trying to
cross the road. 

I got dropped off early. 

The whole trip, which involved catching a lift with a friend and staying in
the worst trailer park (aka cravan park) in western civilisation, ended up
costing $80.

I was not meant for menial work. 

Ob Trav: Travellers are not meant for menial work either. That's why
invariably they end up doing something illegal. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F221lf8nFJ3VTPlu4kA0000f71e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB575BB.18754.8358A9@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 15:20, Sam D wrote:

> Tod Glen wrote:>Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 
> over 7.62x51mm
> >ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
> >is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
> >any particular caliber.
> 
> It is a tuff call.  It appears that the 5.56mm does actually make bigger 
> wounds, as long as there is sufficient tissue to penetrate, as long as the 
> velocity is above 2700 fps.  With an M16 that is like 200- yards; with the 
> M4 it is only 100-140 yards.  After that range, you are better off with the 
> bigger round.  And the 7.62x51 certainly penetrates through cover better at 
> all ranges.  But however you weigh those tradeoffs, there is no doubt that 
> you are going to have to be carrying around an extra 5-10 pounds of gear 
> with the bigger rifle.

Excuse me? How much ammo are you thinking of? For dangerous game 
hunting (the original question) 20 rounds is more than enough, and 
there's no real need for a 10 pound battle rifle. A 7.5 pound light 
sporter will do fine (and that's what my father's PH Magestic from the 
early 60's weighed with scope, etc.), and that's less weight than an 
M16A2.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:40:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:40:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D99957.382D9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 7:25, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/9/02 11:36 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
> 
> > And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting
> > results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting
> > dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or
> > .308?  Or something else?
> 
> You forgot to add:  "Using ball ammunition only".
> 
> We are speaking of military weapons here, so let's get the ammo right.
> There is no question that if ammunition selection is not restricted,
> 7.62x51mm is more lethal.
> 
> Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 over 7.62x51mm
> ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
> is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
> any particular caliber.

I think that this depends a lot on the exact game. If it's leopards, 
small lions or people the 5.56 could well be better, but on thick-
skinned game (not that there's a huge amount in that size range), like 
wild boar the 7.62x51 even with ball would be a better choice IMO, 
because it has better penetration. All the wounding potential in the 
world won't help you if the bullet stops on the outside of a boar's 
shoulderblade.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 4:38 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

>> You forgot to add:  "Using ball ammunition only".
>> 
>> We are speaking of military weapons here, so let's get the ammo right.
>> There is no question that if ammunition selection is not restricted,
>> 7.62x51mm is more lethal.
>> 
>> Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 over 7.62x51mm
>> ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
>> is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
>> any particular caliber.
> 
> I think that this depends a lot on the exact game. If it's leopards,
> small lions or people the 5.56 could well be better, but on thick-
> skinned game (not that there's a huge amount in that size range), like
> wild boar the 7.62x51 even with ball would be a better choice IMO,
> because it has better penetration. All the wounding potential in the
> world won't help you if the bullet stops on the outside of a boar's
> shoulderblade.

I think the hint was 180-200 lbs dangerous game (meaning people)

My first choice for all around game hunting of large animals (over 150 lbs)
and using non-expanding bullets would probably be my .458 Witworth.  It is
reasonably accurate to about 200 yards with express sites ( a ghost ring
would be preferable, but not 'right').  I can load anywhere from  55 - 72
grains of 4895 and go with bullets from 300-500+ grains.  My 'plinking' load
is a 405 gn hard cast bullet in front of 62 gns of 4895.  Plenty of bang for
just about anything.  I suspect the 500 gn monolithic solids would work well
on most game too, as well as the occasional car.

Note that this is strictly a short range load.  No 600 meter head shots.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>

Starship Insurance - Theft and Casualty - Claims

Having dutifully obtained your Theft and Casualty insurance, and having paid
your premiums on time and in full every month, you find yourself set upon by
pirates just short of jump point.  You are careful to respond to them in a
way that will not void your policy (we'll get to that later) and they wind
up taking your ship and leaving you adrift in an escape pod.

It's time to file your theft claim, whereupon your insurer will promptly pay
you. (Hysterical laughter slowly subsides.)

Basics of filing a claim:  The claim must be filed in a timely manner.  The
insured must take steps to mitigate damages.

Timely filing of a claim simply means to report your loss to your agent or a
claims representative a soon as possible.

Mitigation of damages means a reasonable exercise of common sense and effort
to ensure that your loss doesn't get worse, and that (if possible) it will
get better.  In the event of theft, reporting the theft to law enforcement
and other authorities would be a part of mitigation.  Damage should be dealt
with immediately to prevent further damge.  If one of the power regulators
is spiking in a way that endangers the jump-drive, a smart policy-holder
will reroute power around the faulty regulator, or delay jump until a
replacement can be had.  If the policy-holder ignores the power regulator
problem, attempts jump without dealing with it, and slags his J-drive, the
insurance company will likely decide to cover the regulator but not the
J-drive.  Why?  The policy-holder took no steps to mitigate damages.

Failure to file the claim in a timely manner, as well failure to mitigate,
can both be flags for insurance fraud.  Other fraud flags could be (but
certainly wouldn't be limited to):  recent purchase of policy, recent
increase in coverage or additions of riders, key crewmembers who can't be
located, vessels recent past can't be accounted for, etc.

When a claim is filed, the insurance company assigns an adjustor.  The
adjustor's job is to "adjust" the amount paid to the policyholder based upon
the covarage of the policy and the circumstances surrounding the claim.  If
at any step in the process the adjustor can find a reason to deny the claim,
the insurance company wins, the policy-holder loses, and the adjuster gets
an "attabeing" from the company.

One of the first steps the adjustor will take is to gather all relevant
documents they can.  First, because it is readily available, would be a copy
of the policy and all riders as well as the policy-holder's premium payment
history.  If the policy-holder (hereafter p-h) missed a payment, and
coverage was not in effect at the time of loss: claim denied.

Next the adjustor would look at insurance loss report(s) filed by the p-h
(not just for this claim but for any past claims of the p-h -- the adjustor
has to look for those fraud flags.)  Adjustor will further review police and
system defense authority reports, maintenance and repair records, ship's
log, ship's officer's logs, statements taken from the ship's officers and
crew, police and defense officials, and any witnesses to the loss.

Pursuant to all this, the adjustor will use the services of one or more
field investigators, who may be employees of the insurance company, or may
be independent investigators working on a contract basis.  The investigator
will be collecting documents, interviewing and taking statements from
sophonts, examining and documenting damage to the vessel, examing and
documenting the scene of loss, and generally doing legwork for the adjustor.
(Remember, the adjustor handles more than one claim at a time.)

Processing claims where the loss takes place outside a system where an
adjustor is present will be a drawn out process.  A claims decision
involving a loss of the magnitude of a starship would probably take the
better part of a year to process, even with instantaneous communication.

Sometimes the insurance company will actually pay a claim.  If the ship was
damaged, p-h will be paid for repair of damage or replacement of systems
(minus deductible.) Note that such repair and replacement will have already
long since been done in most cases.  The average owner-operator must keep
travelling in order to remain economically viable.

If the ship suffered damage that would cost more to repai than the ship is
worth the ship will be declared a total loss. Same thing if the ship was
stolen.  Note that if the insurer pays out on a total loss, the ship (or
what's left of it) becomes the property of the insurance company.  If the
ship is recovered from the thieves or found in an interstellar chop shop,
the insurance company will be the entity entitled to have the vessel.
(Presumably salvage law would kick in after some period prescribed by
black-letter law, at which point the ship would belong to whoever recovered
it.)

More later.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Near Star List - it's growing
Message-ID: <200204110010.DUF04546@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I listen to Stardate on NPR every evening, and today they 
were talking about the stars within 4 parsecs (see the map at 
their website stardate.org).  Apparently, there are more 
stars than previously known within a "short" distance of the 
Sun.

One example is a search for nearby stars -- some of our 
closest neighbors in all the universe. 

The project is headed by Todd Henry of Georgia State 
University. Team members are searching the heavens with 
fairly small telescopes in Chile. They're aiming mainly at 
faint, cool stars known as red dwarfs. Many of our closest 
neighbors are red dwarfs. But they're so faint that not a 
single one is visible to the unaided eye. 

The astronomers are watching the stars for many months to see 
which ones move against the background of other stars -- a 
motion that reveals which stars are close by. It's like 
holding up your finger and looking at it first with one eye, 
then the other; the finger appears to move back and forth 
against the background. 

By measuring this motion, the astronomers have discovered 13 
new stars within 33 light-years of Earth. The closest of the 
bunch is just 12 light-years away, making it the 20th closest 
known star system. 

________________
When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 16:51, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I think the hint was 180-200 lbs dangerous game (meaning people)

I assumed that we were looking at choices for other dangerous game to 
see if it illuminated the dissucssion of what should be used a people 
(a very thin-skinned type of dangerous game).
 
> My first choice for all around game hunting of large animals (over
> 150 lbs) and using non-expanding bullets would probably be my .458
> Witworth.  It is reasonably accurate to about 200 yards with express
> sites ( a ghost ring would be preferable, but not 'right').  I can
> load anywhere from  55 - 72 grains of 4895 and go with bullets from
> 300-500+ grains.  My 'plinking' load is a 405 gn hard cast bullet in
> front of 62 gns of 4895.  Plenty of bang for just about anything.  I
> suspect the 500 gn monolithic solids would work well on most game
> too, as well as the occasional car. 

My first choice would probably be a .375 H&H. Much though I admire 
Weatherbys they cost too much and are generally over-powered if you're 
using solids - they'd tend to horribly over-penetrate anything but the 
heaviest game. With expansive bullets I'd drop to a .338 Winchester or 
.340 Weatherby unless in Africa, in which case the .375's would be the 
way to go, IMO. .416s and .458/.460s are good vs buffs, elephants, etc. 
but aren't long-range rounds, so you'd need a second rifle for those 
300-500 yard shots on eland, etc.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F195GoE1k8LN6FWe7Xl0000b978@hotmail.com>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

     "This is my opinion, as well.  China in the 1700s-1800s operated in 
much the same way."


Mr. Goffin,

     I don't like to stretch the Imperial China-Ziru Sirka analogy too far.  
1700 China was already behind in the technology race, despite some very 
notable and very early firsts; compasses, stern post rudders, gunpowder, 
paper, printing, etc.  They just never put it all together for a variety of 
reasons.  The Ming dynasty actually had to beg the Jesuits for cannon 
founders in the mid-1600s while they were tangling with the Manchus.  Yuo, 
West-to-East tehnology transfers were happening that early.
     The Ziru Sirka, while stagnant, is ahead of the Terrans in the tech 
race.  Sure the Terrans can catch up, if they're given the time.  I just 
can't quite understand why they were given the time.
     The Imperial China the "Southern Barbarians" began contacting in the 
1500's was in one of it's disintergration phases.  The Ming were on the way 
out, the Manchus were trying to get in, pirates and warlords abounded.  The 
periphary was unravelling, Taiwan was a pirate kingdom that the Chinese paid 
the Dutch to tackle for them, Korea either lost to the Japanese or 
independent, Tibet gone, the far west lost to various horse peoples.  The 
Ming were straining every nerve just to keep the lid on, and they failed.  
After them, the Manchu were nothing more than a foreign dynasty simply 
trying to remain in power.  They restored nothing of China's former power or 
borders, even losing more territory as their dynasty went on.
     Does any of that sound like the Ziru Sirka to you?
     When they met the Terrans, the Vilani were keeping a ZS boot on the 
necks of umpteen minor races, races and home worlds that the Vilani were 
able to keep quiet even as the Terrans racked up victory after victory.  
There is no mention of these plethora of minor races rising in revolt, all 
we hear about is their "welcoming their Terran liberators."  How were the 
Vilani able to keep all those minor races down, how were they able to play 
power politics with Vargr merc pawns, how were they able to still do all of 
that, and STILL lose to a single system polity?

     "I think the Vegans are what we in contemporary times call the Grays.  
They have been surreptitiously visiting Earth for a while to help us develop 
into a human force that can get rid of the Vilani, with whom the Vegans have 
never really gotten along."

     That's part of my take on the whole problem.  The Terran Confederation 
victory over the Ziru Sirka is more along the lines of Cortez versus the 
Aztecs; i.e lots of native allies, and most decidely not a case of "Terra 
Uber Alles."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:38:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:38:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
<snip consideration of various calibers>

I'm trying to make up my mind between the .375 and the .338.  
Since I'm in N. America, it may be the .338. 

The situations that Traveller characters find themselves in 
are rarely more than a few opponents, and most are armed 
(depending on the GM, of course) with pistols and short range 
weapons.  In one past campaign, I did rather well with a 
single-shot falling block rifle in .375 H&H.  I was playing a 
PH, and this was my "walking about" rifle.  I was infamous 
for killing three other player characters by shooting down 
their custom air raft (first shot hit the driver through the 
front, the second shot disabled the powerplant and the other 
two plummeted to their deaths).

If you also consider that Traveller gun combat is at about 
the same range as a Cape Buffalo encounter, and you're 
probably going to live for about as many shots (two, maybe 
three), then I think that whatever makes a good Cape Buffalo 
weapon might make a good Traveller combat weapon.

Let's see.  We'll make it .416 Remington, since we can still 
get Speer tungsten core solids. 

The rifle should be a 4-shot controlled-feed pre-64 
Winchester action (with fixed ejector).  Barrel length should 
be 22 inches, and we'll go with a muzzle brake.  The stock 
should be optimized for firing on your hind legs, and we'll 
put a Trijicon Reflex sight on top, with express sights just 
in case that gets broken.

A PH should be able to get two or three quick aimed shots off 
with something like this.  I haven't seen many Traveller-
style combats last more than a few combat rounds. And you'll 
only have to hit another human *once* with something like 
this.  Tod might make it a .458, though.

Get yourself a pouch that holds 20 rounds, maybe keep 40 
rounds in your pack.  More than enough for most Traveller 
adventures.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDHDKAA.tml@downport.com>

Chumming is for guys not strong enough to be sternman :p

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade

>     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what
lobsters
>eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!

And just think, filters (clams, oysters, etc.) eat what settles on the
bottom after it went through the lobster or crab. Shrimp eat floaties. But
I'd still eat a lobster before I'd chow down on their landlubber cousins,
the spiders :x



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 19:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 10 18:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
In-Reply-To: <001101c1e0d7$3860c120$a8fb883e@fg>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410180651.009f12d0@mindspring.com>

At 10:32 PM 4/10/02 +0100, you wrote:
>The BBC have reported on what the nattily dressed US soldier will be wearing
>on tomorrow's battlefield.  It is a bit worrying though that uniforms will
>be "nearly invisible" (4th para).  Where's the Sarge going to sew his
>stripes?

Considering the stripes worn on the BDU are barely visible now, I don't 
think it is that big of a deal.

I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet 
cover.  In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 19:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 18:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410182447.0390c460@mail.qrc.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>
 <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
 <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020410205024.00a6ead0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 06:25 PM 4/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>At 03:37 PM 4/10/2002, laning wrote:
>>Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
>>detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination
>
>Classic Traveller allowed a starship to determine if gas giants were 
>present in another star system from a 1 parsec range.

I would suggest looking at Adventure 4(?) Leviathan and AM4: Zhodani for 
information on explorations.  Another good website would be 
http://www.securityleak.net/slm/index.html and check out Security Leak #5 
for a detailed look at the Zhodani Core Expeditions.

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
References: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <fos9busmdg2u2fv6oem9hlloq0u375f62e@4ax.com>

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 20:12:13 +0000, "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

>From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
>
>     "It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all =
over=20
>me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
>clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
>from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
>awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar."
>
>Mr. Uhl,
>
>     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what =
lobsters=20
>eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!

We seem to be in the midst of "onedownsmanship" here, with each
account somehow managing to add to the general disgusting flavor of
the thread.

Unless all and sundry truly wish to see an avalanche of reports of
keyboard kills due to the ever rising gorge of the list readers, I
sincerely hope that our talented TML writers bend their very effective
and evocative writing skills to subjects less nauseating.

I do, however, appreciate those descriptions we've seen thus far.  I
pity of character (either literary or RPG) who earns the need to fill
similar roles.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
Message-ID: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).  
But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You 
know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or 
perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.

Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I 
need a bit of camp now and then.
________________
When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:38:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:38:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDHDKAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4F721.DEF69043@sympatico.ca>

Swordy wrote:

> Chumming is for guys not strong enough to be sternman :p
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
>
> >     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what
> lobsters
> >eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!

The job I truly hated, regularly cleaning backed up greased traps in a Burger
King.

A friend job that I fear to visualize:

Giving enemas to elephants, with a 27 pound suppository in my right hand (
gloved to the neck) and a hose in my left hand.  A broom and a shovel for the
resultant mess, nearby.

Although, I would take that over being the individual at a dog / cat food
company who does the taste testing to ensure the labels are correct.

OR

The number one job I do not want to know about or visualize:

The person at a thermometer company who personally tests every rectal
thermometer to meet the print on the packages that reads: "Every one of our
product personally tested to ensure quality."

Michael



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cory Davis)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>

Hi all

just a quick comment, I have been reading M16 vs everything else topic with 
interest and big game hunting rifles just came up, and I realised in all 
the descriptions of peoples campaigns, its all gauss rifles and FGMPs

I just like to say in our games (GT) the weapon of choice were always Gauss 
- LAG (basically, a LEMG-20 with a shorter barrel, I made it up 6 months 
before Ground Forces came out) as with a wide range of ammo it can do all 
sorts of things

we have used fletchettes for unarmoured targets, the APFSDSHD will 
penetrate about 300DR and once we used baton rounds when we had a job as 
repo men (they didn't mark the ship up too much). the best thing about them 
was after a firefight they don't leave many holes, in fact even if fighting 
opponents in battledress on board a ship, afterwards the ship is usually 
still useable, I say usually once we accidently broke the powerplant

I've always thought that due to the high level of personal armour in 
traveller, at high TLs weapons would be designed for penetration rather 
than ROF or explosive fragmentation

oh well back to the discussion of the pros and cons of M16s and big game rifles

(our other game is a pulp horror game and the elephant gun is a staple)

cheers

Cory


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:09:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:09:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
In-Reply-To: <200203310432.DAH01551@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4C5A5.15107.6D8006@localhost>

Hi John,

A little late (as usual, I'm many days behind in reading the 
TML), but I'd like to see a copy of this as well (or let me know
if you've posted it somewhere and I'll get it there).

thanks!

Rob D.

On 30 Mar 2002 at 23:32, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Just finished going through what will be a rather long 
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units 
> in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may 
> differ.
> 
> But..  I need more input.  I've just moved a current day 
> document a fair number of years into the future (out to TL10, 
> so far), and I would like to take it a bit further, say TL12.
> 
> I am interested in anyone's input concerning what might be 
> standard operating procedure (instructions to individual 
> soldiers, teams, and platoons).  Some of the detail I have is 
> down to the items to carry.
> 
> I am especially interested in what might be SOP in regards to 
> weapons, employment of specific weapons (such as, "always use 
> the plasma gun to break contact").
> 
> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing 
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages 
> so far.
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
> 

--
Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com
'Calvin, we will not have an anatomically correct snowman!'




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:10:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:10:48 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Sci Fi Books that are Ob Trav
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1791D@r1clex01.cbr.defe
 nce.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410230528.01ae0498@192.168.0.1>

At 01:59 PM 4/8/2002 +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
>I know I am a tad late in this thread but it occurred to be the other day
>that a very Ob Trav type series of books were the Amtrak Wars by Patrick
>Tilley. Hi Tech underground civilisation fighting mad max esq mutated
>barbarians. The descriptions of the underground settlements seem very trav,
>monorails, life support levels, you name it.
>
>I'm re-reading them now. I liked them as a teenager and, ten years later,
>they're still pretty good.
>
>In fact it would make a great GURPS sourcebook. Doug Berry come on down.

For more examples of Traveller, and Traveller like fiction, take a look at:
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/travfic.html>


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:13:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:13:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA> <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <20020411131133.A6552@freeman.little-possums.net>

Antony Farrell wrote:
> Contrary to popular opinion there are stars in the gaps between the
> arms, the spirals themselves being defined by bright stars. But as
> to how many stars and whether fuel sources could be found there?

There should be quite a few red and brown dwarfs in there, just fewer
bright stars.  The actual stellar density isn't a lot lower, as far as
I've heard.  On top of that, there's bound to be a whole bunch of
sub-planetary objects that should make excellent fuel sources.


> Assuming the ships were built to TL14 or 15 standard this means jump
> 5 or 6 maximum, and it is likely that in the "gaps" fuel sources may
> be further apart than this.

I doubt it.  Red dwarf stars aren't expected to be much less numerous
than in the arms, which means about 2 parsecs should get you from one
to the next.  They would have to be 30 times sparser to have a
moderate chance of reaching a dead-end, even if the ships only carry
one jump worth of fuel.  More likely they can carry enough for two
5-parsec jumps (or five 3-parsec ones) by carrying methane, ammonia,
and/or water instead of pure liquid hydrogen.  They can refine it
between jumps if they reach an area without hydrogen.  If the ships
can reduce volume by collapsing empty tanks, they can get even
further on a full load of fuel.

With good TL 12 sensors (e.g. dedicated sensor platforms which extend
after jump), they should be able to spot gas giants from tens of
parsecs away without any trouble.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <200204101359.DTL04671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204101359.DTL04671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020411132024.B6552@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> This backup power generation is probably nuclear fission, which
> allows the ship to potentially go without hydrogen (albeit without
> jumping anywhere) for some time.

I doubt it.  At Traveller tech levels, nuclear fusion is far more
efficient.  It is also far easier to collect fuel :)


> You may also remember Annic Nova.

I remember the rather ... vigorous ... discussion over it :/


> So let's consider a ship with a nuclear fission base 
> powerplant (to keep everyone nice and warm, and provide a 
> little extra power to charge jump accumulators a la Annic 
> Nova).

If you do that, you've just invented a starship that doesn't need jump
fuel at all, with all the strategic implications that follow.


> There might even be additional closed-cycle hydrogen/oxygen 
> fuel cells.

Why?  The chemical energy stored in 100 tons of fuel cells is about
that found in 1 kilogram of fusion fuel.  You're better off ditching
the fuel cells and putting in extra LHyd tankage.  Better still, put
in water tanks and run the stuff through your fuel processor.  Breathe
some of the waste oxygen and dump the rest.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020411004005.5784B27A85@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020410205654.00a53ce0@mailhost.efn.org>

>     When they met the Terrans, the Vilani were keeping a ZS boot on the
>necks of umpteen minor races, races and home worlds that the Vilani were
>able to keep quiet even as the Terrans racked up victory after victory.
>There is no mention of these plethora of minor races rising in revolt, all
>we hear about is their "welcoming their Terran liberators."

Riiiiiight.  And the United States singlehandedly beat Hitler and liberated 
Europe.  Just ask any contemporary 'Merkun.  (Okay, maybe the Limeys helped 
us out some, but not those dirty Reds, no sir.  And definitely not the 
French - all they know how to do is surrender.  What?  The Chinese?  Were 
they *in* WW2?)


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <20020410122225.B21755@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020411041811.1A229279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/10/02 at 12:22 PM,  "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> said:

>It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over
>me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
>clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
>from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
>awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar.

>I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

That sounds like K'kree hell. Only, they'd then have to *eat* their
work. <g>

It also reminds me of Regina UpPort's famous "Stuff on a Stick"
kiosk...that's where all the left over bits end up.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <no.id> from "John T. Kwon" at Apr 10, 2002 10:36:32 PM
Message-ID: <200204110433.g3B4Xpo25315@shell1.aracnet.com>

> Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).  
> But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You 
> know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or 
> perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.

I've always thought that the 2nd Series of 'Tom Swift' books would make for
some interesting background for a game.  The 1st series would probably make
good background for a 'Steam Punk' game.  Unfortunatly I've never gotten
ahold of any of the 'Tom Corbett' books.
 
> Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I 
> need a bit of camp now and then.

I picked up a copy a few years ago when it was reprinted, but have never
played it.  There is also GURPS: Lensman.

			Zane

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410023924.027e4ad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020411045414.13A9B279F9@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/10/02 at 02:42 AM,  laning <laning@wizard.net> said:

>At 10:46 AM 4/10/02 +1000, Mikey (Michael Hughes) wrote: >PBEM:
>>
>>I am thinking about running a PBEM D&D game for a friend. Does anyone know
>>of a How To website out there for running PBEM RPG sessions?

>I was thinking there's a need for the same thing.  Or at least will
>soon be  a need.  Perhaps interested parties should form a new
>mailing list, and  person or persons on that list be appointed to
>cull together an FAQ for WWW  posting?

http://www.pbem.com/  
    (how too's, mailing list server, ads for players and games,
utilities)

    http://www.pbem.com/howto/harrigan.html
        ("Running a Successful PBeM Campaign")

    http://www.pbem.com/howto/argosy.txt
        ("An Argosy of PBEM Advice", also accessable through pbem.com)

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/1999/11/19/text_gaming/index.html
    ("Word Games" from _Salon Magazine_, compares PBEM to other forms)

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/5835/soapbox.html
    ("PBEM Advice")

http://phoenyx.net/pbemlist.html
    (Phoenyx.net: list server, player and game ads, discussion lists)

http://shatteredworld.8m.com/advice.html
    ("Running Your Own PBEM": links to several articles)

http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Role-Playing/RPG.html
    ("What is roleplaying?")

And once you finish reading all that...<g>...you can come lurk in one,
or more, of my PBEM roleplaying games.  


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:12:13PM +0000
References: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020410225606.A23319@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:12:13PM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>
> The lobsterman removes and measures the damn things while you 
> fish out the used purse and put to fresh on it it's place.

For some value of `fresh'...

:-)

What a nasty sounding concoction.  OTOH, it almost sounds like the
_proper_ way to make Roman fish sauce.  For that, one gets a good mess
of fish and cleans them, then puts a layer of salt at the bottom of a
barrel.  Alternate layers of fish and salt up to the top, covering
over with a good bit of salt.  Store in the right conditions and a
kind of fermentation takes place in which the muscles dissolve and the
bones and scales break apart.  Eventually one opens the barrel and
drains off the liquid, leaving behind a gritty dregs.  The liquid is,
essentially, salty fish water.

Not nearly as disgusting as it sounds, I'm told.  Couldn't get me to
try it, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Taliban representative was explaining the good the Taliban had done
for the country.  He started his statement with `We have disarmed the
people...'                          --CNN special: Inside Afghanistan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:12:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:12:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20410.144847.1G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 10, 2002 02:48:47 PM
Message-ID: <200204110412.g3B4CU601389@localhost.uia.net>

Leonard writes:
> The problem is, different things depend on *different* ratios. 
> 
> Some depend on things like the charge to mass ratio of particles.
> Others depend on things like the ratios of the *squares* of of things.
> And some are things like square roots. Or weirder ratios. 
> 
> You *can't* make them all match. 

Even if all four fundamental forces & inertia (i.e. apparent
mass) drop simultaneously by the same factor? Wouldn't then
the ratios between these values (and those other values based
on them) all stay the same? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020411083544.A5842@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 11, 2002 08:35:44 AM
Message-ID: <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>

> Apart from that, your goal is to have the behaviour of atoms (and more
> complex systems) behave in the same way as before inertial
> suppression, correct?  This requires more than just changing the
> strength of forces.

The goal was to theoretically examine inertial suppression as a
means for making high accelleration (say anywhere from 50g to 1000g)
doable for a STL-based RPG, so that we'd be able to have speedy
interstellar travel from a subjective viewpoint (a few days to a few
weeks from the viewpoint of the crew, although it would be years
or even decades from the viewpoint of those not taking the trip).

In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
physics as we know it, and both of you know a lot more about
physics than I do, so it seems that I'm going to have to relent
and give up on this idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes
infeasible, and we're left with FTL (which has already been done
to death). Ah well... -Jim

> > To do so, I think we really need to look at the most simple
> > problems, involving only a single atom or a pair of atoms.
> 
> OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
> the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
> a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
> strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
> hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
> when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
> decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
> just one simple example.

Most of this flies over my head, but I'll see if I can figure it out and
then get back to ya later... -Jim
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>

Greetings!

In many of the games I've run or played in, the weapon of choice for short 
range combat is invariably a 10-gauge drum fed automatic shotgun (modeled 
after the Berlinetta (sp?) that some folks used to call the "vroom broom" 
or "street sweeper"). There are two things that we found strike terror in 
the hearts of the NPCs (and sometimes other players):

         1) The sound of a shotgun action being worked
         2) The realization that somebody might think shooting white 
phosphorus rounds looked like a good idea

The second point didn't occur until after I had unloaded several rounds 
into a building of hostiles.  It seems that using staggered loads of 
different types (HEAP, HE, WP, Mercury Fulminate, KEAP, and Flechettes) had 
never occurred to anybody else in the game and the damage to the hostiles 
was sort of mind boggling for them.  :-)

Of course we could also talk about the 90cm grenade launcher that turns 
people into portable artillery units.........

I love things that go *BOOM*!   ;-)

Best regards,

Charles

At 12:37 PM 4/11/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Hi all
>
>just a quick comment, I have been reading M16 vs everything else topic 
>with interest and big game hunting rifles just came up, and I realised in 
>all the descriptions of peoples campaigns, its all gauss rifles and FGMPs
>
>I just like to say in our games (GT) the weapon of choice were always 
>Gauss - LAG (basically, a LEMG-20 with a shorter barrel, I made it up 6 
>months before Ground Forces came out) as with a wide range of ammo it can 
>do all sorts of things
>
>we have used fletchettes for unarmoured targets, the APFSDSHD will 
>penetrate about 300DR and once we used baton rounds when we had a job as 
>repo men (they didn't mark the ship up too much). the best thing about 
>them was after a firefight they don't leave many holes, in fact even if 
>fighting opponents in battledress on board a ship, afterwards the ship is 
>usually still useable, I say usually once we accidently broke the powerplant
>
>I've always thought that due to the high level of personal armour in 
>traveller, at high TLs weapons would be designed for penetration rather 
>than ROF or explosive fragmentation
>
>oh well back to the discussion of the pros and cons of M16s and big game 
>rifles
>
>(our other game is a pulp horror game and the elephant gun is a staple)
>
>cheers
>
>Cory
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411013014.029c3e10@pop.wizard.net>

At 04:51 PM 4/10/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I think the hint was 180-200 lbs dangerous game (meaning people)

Precisamundo.  The idea is what you are shooting at will and can gladly 
kill you if you give it the chance.  Different from trying to avoid chasing 
your deer while it runs across half the county before bleeding to death.


>My 'plinking' load
>is a 405 gn hard cast bullet in front of 62 gns of 4895.

LOL, that's some pretty serious plinking.  :->


>Plenty of bang for
>just about anything.  I suspect the 500 gn monolithic solids would work well
>on most game too, as well as the occasional car.

Always handy when your daughter gets old enough to date teenaged boys in 
hot rods.

>Note that this is strictly a short range load.  No 600 meter head shots.

Understood.

--Laning





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:32:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:32:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410222548.02170a50@mail.verizon.net>

Oh boy do I remember it, and somewhere I have the rules packed away.

In fact, I was having a discussion this afternoon with a coworker about 
whether anybody would ever have the testicular fortitude to make a series 
of movies based on the Lensman or Family D'Alembert series. The Japanese 
did an animated version of the Lensman series in the 80s, but we're pretty 
well convinced that in this politically correct time that either the 
studios would edit the jingoism right out of the movie or just say no.

Of course, somewhere I still have notes on a Lensman campaign from a few 
years ago.........

Then again, I think a fun game would be set in Harrison's Stainless Steel 
Rat universe (in fact, I've played in that setting several times).

An interesting game might be one that is either based on Asimov's 
Foundation series, Robot series, or just on "The Caves of Steel".

Best regards,

Charles



At 10:36 PM 4/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).
>But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You
>know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or
>perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.
>
>Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I
>need a bit of camp now and then.
>________________
>When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, 
>they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often 
>use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters 
>of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes 
>over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. 
>Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think 
>most would consider truly lamentable.
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F148K7S8MyBuN6QXhY00000aa29@hotmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn writes:

>Excuse me? How much ammo are you thinking of? For dangerous game
>hunting (the original question) 20 rounds is more than enough, and
>there's no real need for a 10 pound battle rifle. A 7.5 pound light
>sporter will do fine (and that's what my father's PH Magestic from the
>early 60's weighed with scope, etc.), and that's less weight than an
>M16A2.

I interpreted the original question as inquiring about stopping power, using 
a theoretical human sized dangerous animal to gain insight into what caliber 
would be appropriate for stopping a dangerous human ("And I'm curious if the 
following question will produce interesting results").  If you were really 
interested in shooting dangerous game, and not the analogy, of course a 
sporter rifle and a less ammo would be appropriate.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:36:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:36:23 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>; from res0i3sf@verizon.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:25:21PM -0700
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au> <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20020410233434.B23469@4dv.net>

I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
inexpensive ammunition.  There are all sorts of nice & nifty rifles,
and I realise that the ammunition's not going to be cheap--but I'm
really not up to paying 50c a round unless I really, really have to.

Thanks much!

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their
pockets for new vocabulary.                     --James D. Nicoll

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
References: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411013453.029c0450@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert Boleyn says:

>My first choice would probably be a .375 H&H. Much though I admire
>Weatherbys they cost too much and are generally over-powered if you're
>using solids - they'd tend to horribly over-penetrate anything but the
>heaviest game. With expansive bullets I'd drop to a .338 Winchester or
>.340 Weatherby unless in Africa, in which case the .375's would be the
>way to go, IMO. .416s and .458/.460s are good vs buffs, elephants, etc.
>but aren't long-range rounds, so you'd need a second rifle for those
>300-500 yard shots on eland, etc.

Those are the same kinds of conclusions I made from studying books about 
this kind of stuff about 20 years ago.

People who are liking lighter rounds are also exceptionally skilled shots 
and I think factoring in their ability at shot placement more than I myself 
would be comfortable with.  Heard way too many stories from excellent shots 
who lost deer that they good pretty good hits on using .30-'06.  I'm not 
saying they won't get their one-shot kills with lighter rounds.  Just that 
I'd rather not rely on that kind of thing if it were me.

Some of the recent posts on the topic to the TML are modifying my opinions, 
but only somewhat.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411014019.028f40d0@pop.wizard.net>

John T Kwon:
<<<snip>>>
>The situations that Traveller characters find themselves in
>are rarely more than a few opponents, and most are armed
>(depending on the GM, of course) with pistols and short range
>weapons.

Very much depends on the referee as well as the players.  I let them get 
into whichever kind of mischief they choose for themselves.  If tick off 
the Mafia or the city police, they have to deal with that and if they tick 
off the banditos in the Sierra Madre while mining gold they have to deal 
with that.  Or maybe they're dropped by the OSS deep into Burma and have to 
hook up with a stone age tribe to conduct guerilla warfare against the 
Japanese.  (I recommend reading a book called 'The Blue Eyed Shan' btw, for 
people interested in this kind of thing.)

<<<more snippage>>>

What is a PH?

My own characters in other Traveller games have often preferred gauss 
rifles, light machineguns, assault rifles, submachineguns, and blade 
weapons, or even bare hands.  As well as grenade launchers, LAGs, shotguns, 
laser carbines or rifles, FGMPs or PGMPs, and an assortment of hand 
grenades.  I try to have the character own and be familiar with all that 
kind of stuff, and then try to have them take the ones that are best for 
the tactical situation and terrain the character is expecting to be 
in.  Pistols and big game rifles have never been big on my list for my 
characters, even though I've tried to make characters who had those are 
their fortes.

In my most recent gun fight in a "Traveller" game, I carried a 
submachinegun, grenades, and great armor as five of us invaded the local 
despot's palace on an impoverished TL 5 to 6 world.  I didn't bother with 
an edged weapon since the character was awesome at unarmed combat and 
improvised weapons.  Left me more weight allowance for ammo.  Our other big 
gun carried a light machinegun.  He didn't make it.  Wasn't wearing enough 
armor, IMHO.  It's a beer and pretzels referee.

That was face to face Traveller gunfights.  Tod Glenn has been putting my 
character through some hoops in his PBEM game, more recently.  He only has 
Rifle-1 for firearms skills, the rest of his combat skills are for 
melee.  He used a battered carbine at 50 meters to kill a very corrupt cop 
who was sitting in a parked car.  It seemed fair at the time.  <EG>  And 
we're nearing the end of a basically dense jungle patrolling combat between 
an enemy equipped to just shy of battle dress (carrying a lot of the 
nastiest weaponry and gizmos Tod has posted on travellercentral.com) and 
the player characters, equipped to a motley standard of high tech combat 
gear.  I used my high-tech bullpup-style assault rifle with special ammo 
(alternating HVAPFSDS long rod penetrator and HE) and got two of them so 
far.  But in about ten minutes, all the PCs are going to get wiped out by 
nerve gas _plus_ EMP weapons conveniently proposed here on the TML.  Guess 
the Evil GM couldn't wait to try out his new toy on some players.  :->

Don't worry kids.  Come back next Sunday matinee for the next exciting 
installment of 'How Will the PCs Escape the Cliffhanger?'.  Your brave 
heroes are bound to come up with something to escape the elaborate death 
trap.  Probably.  LOL.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F97SgeR4UIS42NXHwGr0001bbad@hotmail.com>

Robert A. Uhl:

>I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
>general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
>to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
>inexpensive ammunition.  There are all sorts of nice & nifty rifles,
>and I realise that the ammunition's not going to be cheap--but I'm
>really not up to paying 50c a round unless I really, really have to.

I think you will have a hard time finding a rifle that is adequate for elk 
that is going to cost less than $0.50 per round.  I'd get a 30-06, but 
anything .270 caliber and above would probably be adequate.

As far as rifles, Savages are good and cheap.  Ugly though.  To be honest, 
there is not much difference between the bottom of the line Savage, Ruger, 
Winchester or Remington.  The nice thing about the latter two is that, if 
you ever decide to do so, you can upgrade the rifle easily.  All 4 brands 
will do the job and last several generations, and they all get pretty good 
accuracy out of the box.  Expect to spend at least $3-400 or so, which might 
include a cheap scope.  Check Wal-Mart.  Get a synthetic stock.  These 
rifles are so cheap, that it might be hard to find a used one for less.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020411083544.A5842@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020411160312.A6708@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
> both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
> physics as we know it,

That it does.  :)

I've worked out a set of variations on all the fundamental constants
that works.  However, upon doing the equations it just works out
equivalent to measuring things in grams instead of kilograms. :/

There was no *real* difference at all, including interaction with the
outside world.  Oh well :(



> so it seems that I'm going to have to relent and give up on this
> idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes infeasible, and we're left
> with FTL (which has already been done to death).

Almost all forms of FTL violate physics as we know it, too.  Don't
take my insistence that inertia suppression doesn't work with known
physics and chemistry to mean that I'd choke and barf if I saw it in a
game.  I quite enjoyed the "Lensman" series, after all :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411023119.028f5a00@pop.wizard.net>

John T Kwon:
>Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I
>need a bit of camp now and then.

A few parts of it seemed to have been photocopied straight from Traveller.

It was aptly named.  I had some very good times in the one Space Opera game 
I played in.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:31:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Hagler)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:31:24 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <20020410233434.B23469@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B8DA7B5A.46DE8%khagler@orange-road.com>

on 4/10/2002 10:34 PM, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
> general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
> to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
> inexpensive ammunition.

If you've got lots of money for the rifle, the Steyr Scout in .308 is good.
It's $2800 new, though. I'm saving up for one.  :-)

<http://www.steyrscout.org/>
-- 
                              Ken Hagler

|          ICQ#: 34591293         |   For PGP key send mail with  |
|   http://www.orange-road.com/   |    subject "Send PGP Key".    |
|   And tho' we are not now that strength which in old days       |
|   Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are --Tennyson  |


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018477349.495.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155047.01de3120@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411023756.028f5390@pop.wizard.net>

At 03:22 PM 4/10/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Actually, no, the drug could easily be responsible.  Much of the reason for
>people falling down when shot is that they know they ought to, and drugs can
>dull the pain response and/or make you too stupid to realize you've been shot.
>
>The fact that he stood there are got shot several times by an M60 may suggest
>why the use of combat drugs is discouraged.  People who are heavily 
>drugged are
>not usually known for their good tactics.

I'm not going to agree with you, except for the part about drugs and 
tactics.  It seems to me that the less personal familiarity people have 
with drugs, and the more they hate the class of people who they feel use 
drugs, the more willing they are to ascribe superhuman abilities to drug 
users who are shot.  We're each entitled to our separate opinions.

I'm most inclined to believe that the guy being repeatedly hit with M-60 
machinegun bursts was some kind of weird fluke regardless of drug 
use.  Otherwise, such an incident would be so routine that it would not 
have been noted as unusual in the book.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411024705.01dc26f0@pop.wizard.net>

Charles McKnight:
>In many of the games I've run or played in, the weapon of choice for short 
>range combat is invariably a 10-gauge drum fed automatic shotgun (modeled 
>after the Berlinetta (sp?) that some folks used to call the "vroom broom" 
>or "street sweeper"). There are two things that we found strike terror in 
>the hearts of the NPCs (and sometimes other players):
>
>         1) The sound of a shotgun action being worked
>         2) The realization that somebody might think shooting white 
> phosphorus rounds looked like a good idea
>
>The second point didn't occur until after I had unloaded several rounds 
>into a building of hostiles.  It seems that using staggered loads of 
>different types (HEAP, HE, WP, Mercury Fulminate, KEAP, and Flechettes) 
>had never occurred to anybody else in the game and the damage to the 
>hostiles was sort of mind boggling for them.  :-)
>
>Of course we could also talk about the 90cm grenade launcher that turns 
>people into portable artillery units.........

:::wipes a tear from the corner of one eye:::

"Son, you make me proud."

Warms my cockles, that does.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <20020411045414.13A9B279F9@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410023924.027e4ad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411024937.01dc7010@pop.wizard.net>

Wow, hadn't realized that 'Salon' had already visited the PBEM world.

Thanks for the good URLs.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410222548.02170a50@mail.verizon.net>
References: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411025215.029cb0e0@pop.wizard.net>

Charles McKnight:
>Then again, I think a fun game would be set in Harrison's Stainless Steel 
>Rat universe (in fact, I've played in that setting several times).

I'm for it!!!

Get Spielberg to executive produce it.  He's a lover of pulp SF.  Then 
you'll have money.  But don't let near the script or the director.  He 
pasteurizes everything into pablum.

And don't forget voice overs of Slippery Jim's interior monologue.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
Message-ID: <memo.437377@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410180651.009f12d0@mindspring.com>
When in the British army, I got bawled out for not wearing my stripes on 
combat clothing (they were correctly displayed on other uniforms). I 
pointed out that in the field: -

a. I didn't want the enemy to know what rank I was.
b. My own people knew me already.

I then added some removable stripes, which only went on when there was an 
officer around :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.
Formerly Sergeant, 22nd (Cheshire) Regiment.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 01:01:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 00:01:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <memo.437376@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020411041811.1A229279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
>It also reminds me of Regina UpPort's famous "Stuff on a Stick"
>kiosk...that's where all the left over bits end up.

Don't say that, my character in Mole's PBeM just had his supper there :-(

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 01:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Apr 11 00:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020411024231.00967100@minn.net>

At 12:37 PM 4/11/2002 +1000, Cory wrote:

>I've always thought that due to the high level of personal armour in 
>traveller, at high TLs weapons would be designed for penetration rather 
>than ROF or explosive fragmentation
>
>oh well back to the discussion of the pros and cons of M16s and big game
rifles

Back when I was involved in the patriot movement (I posted the ASCII text
of the first issue of THE RESISTER on usenet) I bought a STG 58 (Austrian
FAL) parts kit and had a gunsmith rebuild it on a semi-auto D.S. Arms
reciever. I also bought 25 magazines, 4000+ rounds of British surplus
ammunition and a ELCAN optical sight for it. 

My MTF transexual landlady asked me if the glowing green triangle in the
ELCAN reticle was for shooting gay martians. When I showed my rifle to the
fellow who edited THE RESISTER he moved the selector switch to what was the
full-auto postion and gave me the look of child expecting a REALLY NEAT
Christmas present.

"NO NO NO N0, Steve," I said, "it doesn't do that, I tried it already."


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 01:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 00:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperial OpSix Force
In-Reply-To: <20020410225606.A23319@4dv.net>
References: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:12:13PM +0000
Message-ID: <3CB4F99B.6983.2E9659D@localhost>

It=92s a hot day as the press core sits on the open benches in front of a 
small stage adorn with several strange looking devices.  They could only 
assume they are weapons since this is a press conference of the Imperial 
Marine training center.  A lone marine petty officer steps forward. 

=93This hour you will be introduced to our newest training technique the 
OpSix force formally called the Starfish Regiment.  This united is 
designed to represent the Hiver federation.   All the troops are not only 
versed in the weapons, tactics and techniques of the Hivers, but also to 
insure the most realistic training they are all experts in the use of the 
Mark II mock Hiver Environmental Suit.=94

At this moment a shirk comes up from the back of the press core as four 
strange creatures appear armed and looking deadly.  Another appears on 
stage and with its many arms [wiggle] [wave wave] [flagellate] [wave 
point flail].


=93Its ok its just members of the OpSix force.  That was just a simple 
demonstration of how realistic the suits are and now Lt. Sherow will take 
over.  A woman seems to unfold herself from the suit.  

=93What I did when I got on stage was give you our Motto.  Experts at 
Retreating=85 That=92s just what we want you to think.  Now I will continu=
e 
explain how this force works.=94

The dog and pony show drags on


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410222548.02170a50@mail.verizon.net>
References: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <v04020a15b8dad9a13fa9@[192.168.1.5]>

>In fact, I was having a discussion this afternoon with a coworker about
>whether anybody would ever have the testicular fortitude to make a series
>of movies based on the Lensman or Family D'Alembert series. The Japanese
>did an animated version of the Lensman series in the 80s, but we're pretty

Have you seen it?  I saw it back in '93, as I remember it was a lot more
like Star Wars rather than the Lensman series.  Still, I enjoyed it, and
wouldn't mind getting a copy of it on DVD.

>well convinced that in this politically correct time that either the
>studios would edit the jingoism right out of the movie or just say no.

I'm scared to think what a mess a studio would make out of it!

			Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|          PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum.         |
|                http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/               |

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F217LltyKF5Q6JVW8s20001d6e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20411.003056.1J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Mr. Erickson,
>
>      Yes, as your other posts illustrated, a planet is a VERY BIG place!  
> Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the 
> conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.
>
> In another bout of hyperbole, I posted, "... the Ziro Sirka would have, 
> could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it glowed."
>
>      "Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
> Millions, hundreds of millions."
>
>      But of course.  Would you care to hazard a guess just what sort of 
> firepower it would have taken for the ZS to remove Terra as a threat?  How 
> many warheads, kinetic strikes, spinal mount hits, and plain old iron bombs 
> would it have taken "de-industrialize" Terra?

Probably more than was practical. Especially given that humans were
pretty well spread out in the solar system as well. 

Exact figures would require knowing a lot more about what was where and
how it was defended. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:18:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:18:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGGCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20411.002719.0T1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> >
>> >A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
>> >bone from a walrus penis.  See
>> >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html
>>
> So when I tell my girlfriend that I've got a "Boner",
> I'm really speaking Eskimo?

Nope. Humans are one of the mammals that *don't* have a penis bone. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:20:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:20:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410025314.02b56df0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20411.003332.4n3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I have too vague an image of how canonical nuclear dampers will precisely 
> behave to really describe all how they will help, and what will be beyond 
> their help.  It probably varies quite a bit from one referee's TU to 
> another's.  I'd guess some referees only have them work if they're focused 
> on ground zero at the time of the explosion, while others let you do 
> whatever kind of prevention and clean up sounds theoretically within the 
> limits of such a technology.

Stopping a bomb from going off requires pretty good focus. Accelerating
decay doesn't and (as I recall) is well within the abilities of the
dampers as described in official source materials.

I tend to consider them *less* useful than the original descriptions,
simply because that decay energy has to go *somewhere*. It won't just
disappear. Thus my comments about heat limiting the speed of cleanup.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:21:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:21:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409223004.02132f28@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <20411.003635.3k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Which reminds me. Some day I need to sit down and try to figure out what 
>>would be required to produce a "burned off" world such as appears in some 
>>of Norton's books.
>
> While I'm not familiar with Norton's "burned off" worlds (I don't tend to 
> read Norton), the easiest way to completely clobber a planet with Traveller 
> technology is to drop a few big rocks on it.  With Traveller maneuver 
> drives, it should be relatively easy to nudge a number of asteroids in the 
> 100,000dton or bigger class into an intercept trajectory with a planet, and 
> that should be all that's needed.

Norton's examples are basicly worlds that got the entire surface
slagged. 

A few didn't quite get it that bad. And most were done with "dirty"
weapons. 

On Terra much of North Ammerica is a lifeless wasteland that is still
too radioactive to enter safely centuries later. Again, lots of
"radioactive glass" surface. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:23:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:23:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <002101c1e027$4452ada0$3cb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <20411.004119.4s9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> You seem to be fairly consistently a couple of days behind on the
> list, BTW.  Are you just behind, or is it something to do with the
> exotic 19th Century computers you use?

I was sick, and I'm still trying to catch up. 

And sorry, but the computers I use aren't *that* old. Well, the abaci,
are, but they aren't used for email.

This box isn't all that old. AMD K6-2/500 cpu, 320 meg of RAMN, etc. It
just so happens that it's running OS/2 and the mail software is running
in a DOS window.

Viruses don't have a chance. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAAEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Robert A. Uhl wrote :
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:54:19AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> >
> > Shakepear didn't have any copyrights on his work -
> > they didn't exist at that time.
>
> That was indeed part of my point...

Of course, Shakespeare was _lucky_ that copyright didn't exist,
or he'd have had his arse sued off by the people he stole his
plays from.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:53:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:53:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEELHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

People are discussing "open source" or free game rules and
claiming it's going to put game designers out of work.

This is basically crap.

FUDGE is sold, and it is completely freely available at the same
time.

GURPS Lite is given away, as were the basic rules for Alternity,
among others.

The D20 system is "open source" and there are many designers
making money off it, (or planning to make money off it) including
Hunter Gordon on this list.

Personally, I think D20 is  a "Bad Thing", not because it won't
make money, but because it will stifle creativity in mechanics.
Designers will face the choice "shall I design my own system,
whichh might fail, or shall I design a game based on D20 which
will probably guarantee me some sales I wouldn't have otherwise."
But that's just my opinion, and because I don't like the idea of
"character levels" in games.

People mentioned "Gates vs Linux".
In the D20 case though, it is like Gates deciding to open source
Windows 2000!

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:55:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:55:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8d974f770c0@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :

> But we are talking about security measure that are
> intrusive enough that the are a hassle to the day
> to day operation of a ship.

Yes.

Just as being searched for screwdrivers and penknives is
currently a hassle in the day to day operation of an airline.

> Some people are going to know about them.

Everyone will be _told_ about them. They won't be secret.

> Unless they are important  enough to make a _significant_
change in costs,
> another company will be able to draw at least some customers
away buy not
> having such intrusive requirements.

The requirements are set by the SPA and the local civilian
government, not the insurance company, as I already said :

> >The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
> >required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
> >may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
> >starport will do it (for important safety and
> >financial reasons,would you want an unwarranted vehicle
> >approaching an extremely expensve space station?), there won't
> >be any real choice except for the captains to take the risk
> >of not doing it and not go to the better starports
>
> The presumption is that every insurance company will have such
> requirements.

No, the presumption is that no insurance company will accept
liability for an illegal ship.

Because of that, if the ship owners wish to be able to recover
the cost of their starship in the event of an accident, they will
attempt to ensure their ship is legal at all times.

> That requires that you show that such requirements
> make a significant difference in insurance costs.

I suspect that any company willing to knowingly insure an illegal
ship, and be expected to pay out, will charge ten times, if not
more, than the normal going rate. And as such an organization is
almost certainly going to be criminal anyway, they may charge the
additional premiums and still not pay out.

> Otherwise insurance companies have no reason to
> push unpopular requirements.
>
> However, if you can show that such requirements are
> needed to keep theft down to a reasonable level, then
> you don't need to invoke insurance companies requiring it.
>
> In the end, invoking insurance companies is not a way
> of justifying  regulations that don't have other basis.

I agree.

However, as already stated,  the insurance companies are not the
justification for the regulations, the starport authority and
civilian govermnment is the justification for the regulations.

Insurance is just the reason the owner of the ship wants to obey
the regulations. After all, the owner may not care that there is
the possibility of a hijack, and may not care how much damage the
hijacked ship does, as long as they know they will be paid out by
the insurance company, all the ship owner has to worry about is
replacing their ship. The insurance company has to worry about
liability for damage to other ships and facilities.

I suspect that in the event of a hijack, the insurance company
will _not_ be your friend, they will be trying _very_ hard to
prove that you did not have adequate safeguards to avoid paying
out the ninety billion in damages to the residents of the suburb
the ship crashed in. If they succeeed, then the liability suit
will go against the owner of the ship.

Have a look at the completely OTT security that is currently
being applied to domestic air travel.
Confiscation of pen-knives and scissors is admittedly stupid, but
this is the sort of stupidity that you will have to deal with in
the SPA and local governments.

Think about the difference in damage potential between a 747 and
a subsidized merchant.
Then think about the greater effect that damage will have on an
orbital starport.

Security on a starship will be required to be tight to prevent
"passengers" from taking control of the starship and flying it
into the starport, or other targets of oppurtunity.

Without proof of the requisite security, you will not be allowed
near the "better" starports or planets, just as any airlines that
are not willing to implement the silly current restrictions would
not be allowed to operate out of major airports.

I agree that on current sea-going ships security is relatively
lax (And a lot of people equate traveller merchants to sea-going
merchants). But changing that will take just a single incident
where a terrorist group takes over a large tanker, turns it into
a floating bomb or biological weapon release system, and sails it
into a heavily populated harbour and sets it off. I believe this
has already been done in fiction, and one has only to look at the
Halifax incident to see the potential for destruction.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:57:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:57:17 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
In-Reply-To: <20020410123043.C21755@4dv.net>
References: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020410123043.C21755@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020411015015.56c0a4db.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> So he went on down to the consul, they all had a good laugh, and the
> letter informing the German registry that Calvert is approved for use
> in America was sent.
> 
> OTOH, I daresay Germany has no-one name Moon Unit or Dweezil, so the
> policy is not entirely incorrect.

In Sweden, the Department of Statistics maintains a webpage where it is
possible to query for the number of people with any name. Very
entertaining.

Calvert : 1 (male)
Sauron : 1 (male)  -  !!!
Legolas : 5 (male)
Gandalf : 15 (male)
Grus : 19 (male)  -  This name means "gravel"

And my favorite:

Skywalker : 9 (male)

The persons who have this name have it as a middle name. They are probably
named "Luke Skywalker Svensson" or something similiar.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:59:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:59:10 2002
Subject: [TML] test
In-Reply-To: <3CB4BE9A.1155267C@premier.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204101430010.1171-100000@rhylanor>
 <3CB4BE9A.1155267C@premier.net>
Message-ID: <20020411015618.314b70fa.jenry023@student.liu.se>

John Groth wrote:
> Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled in terror, and you
> would not have been informed.

Had this been a real emergency, you would all be dead by now.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 04:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeffrey Malone)
Date: Thu Apr 11 03:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Lost Causes
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17951@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <00dc01c1e140$61de4e00$a92554d2@1338700057>

To paraphrase (IIRC) Harry Summers in 'On Strategy', a (possibly apocryphal)
conversation between a US Army officer and a PAVN officer, some years later:

USA - "You know, you never defeated us on the battlefield"

PAVN - "Quite correct.  And also irrelevant."

The Tet Offensive was a great example of the 'CNN Effect' well ahead of
time, of perception having more effect than reality.  The NLF was utterly
devested in 1968, ultimately leading to cadres from the North taking control
of the struggle in the South.  But that was not the perception of the voting
public, and the rest is history...


----- Original Message -----
From: Hughes, Michael <Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 8:19 AM
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Lost Causes


> The Dougster:
> In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat
> in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?
>
> Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public
> opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the
> region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.
>
> Mikey:
> The US were never really going to win that one. As Uncle Ho is fondly
> remembered saying 'I am willing to lose 10 men for each one of yours'.
Hell,
> I think the toll in Vietnam for the conflict was about a million on the
> Communist side. So given loses of 50k for the US that's like 20 to 1.
>
> Besides it's a bit hard to 'save' a country that won't save itself.
>
> My 0.02 of course, so don't roast me slowly over a verbal BBQ.
>
> I'm studying Vietnam now at uni. I particularly enjoyed the battle of Ap
Bac
> (?), which got turned into a major propaganda piece about the South wiping
> the floor with Communist insurgents. When the smoke cleared they found
just
> 3 bodies....
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 05:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 04:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204111145.DVD01524@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert Uhl asks about a GP rifle
<snip>
A Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 for deer. Just right.

Not truly reliable for elk, but it's been done.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 05:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 04:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204111147.DVD01644@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning asks
>what is a PH?

Professional Hunter
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 06:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr 11 05:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Real-world biometrics
Message-ID: <F135SenAbcZbxX9QeCw00005b24@hotmail.com>

Someone recently mentioned a well-established trick in
fiction of defeating a thumbprint scanner by cutting
off an authorized person's thumb.  Real life appears
to have caught up...

"Biometrics Can Be Painful"
current (April 11, 2002) issue at http://www.w2knews.com

Synopsis:
A company placed automated bank teller machines at mining
installations in South Africa, and used thumbprint ID.
Within weeks, they had to take them out - there were
too many incidents of people getting attacked and having
their thumbs cut off.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 06:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 11 05:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RealLife(tm) Battledress, next chapter
References: <20020411004005.5784B27A85@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <204AD90A.F27541C2@earthlink.net>

This is kinda fun...

http://www.aro.army.mil/soldiernano/


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 06:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Thu Apr 11 05:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <3CB4F721.DEF69043@sympatico.ca>; from stosh@sympatico.ca on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:38:25PM -0400
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDHDKAA.tml@downport.com> <3CB4F721.DEF69043@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20020411083438.B9890@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:38:25PM -0400, Michael Stasica wrote:
> 
> A friend job that I fear to visualize:
> 
> Giving enemas to elephants, with a 27 pound suppository in my right hand (
> gloved to the neck) and a hose in my left hand.  A broom and a shovel for the
> resultant mess, nearby.
> 
ISTR an incident where an unfortunate person got caught in and buried
by the generous outflow with fatal results...

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Real-world biometrics
In-Reply-To: <F135SenAbcZbxX9QeCw00005b24@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411085821.02b4ef78@192.168.0.1>

At 08:14 AM 4/11/2002 -0400, Walt Smith wrote:
>Someone recently mentioned a well-established trick in
>fiction of defeating a thumbprint scanner by cutting
>off an authorized person's thumb.  Real life appears
>to have caught up...
>"Biometrics Can Be Painful"
>current (April 11, 2002) issue at http://www.w2knews.com
>Synopsis:
>A company placed automated bank teller machines at mining
>installations in South Africa, and used thumbprint ID.
>Within weeks, they had to take them out - there were
>too many incidents of people getting attacked and having
>their thumbs cut off.

Ah...South Africa...home of the flame thrower anti-carjacking device...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F195GoE1k8LN6FWe7Xl0000b978@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB635B9.12478.8D0AC6@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 0:35, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>      The Imperial China the "Southern Barbarians" began contacting in the 
> 1500's was in one of it's disintergration phases.  The Ming were on the way 
> out, the Manchus were trying to get in, pirates and warlords abounded.  The 
> periphary was unravelling, Taiwan was a pirate kingdom that the Chinese paid 
> the Dutch to tackle for them, Korea either lost to the Japanese or 
> independent, Tibet gone, the far west lost to various horse peoples.  The 
> Ming were straining every nerve just to keep the lid on, and they failed.  
> After them, the Manchu were nothing more than a foreign dynasty simply 
> trying to remain in power.  They restored nothing of China's former power or 
> borders, even losing more territory as their dynasty went on.
>      Does any of that sound like the Ziru Sirka to you?

Yep. The Vilani already had problems when the Terrans turned up. They 
no longer had a monoploy on jump drives and were  suffering from piracy 
from outside their borders by minor races. That's why they thought the 
Terrans were just a bunch of pirates to start with.

>      When they met the Terrans, the Vilani were keeping a ZS boot on the 
> necks of umpteen minor races, races and home worlds that the Vilani were 
> able to keep quiet even as the Terrans racked up victory after victory.  
> There is no mention of these plethora of minor races rising in revolt, all 
> we hear about is their "welcoming their Terran liberators."  How were the 
> Vilani able to keep all those minor races down, how were they able to play 
> power politics with Vargr merc pawns, how were they able to still do all of 
> that, and STILL lose to a single system polity?

Because the Vargr were not that far from Vland, and were an altogether 
higher prioroty. As for the minor races - the Vilani controlled the 
transport and information flow, so the subject races may not have even 
heard of the Terrans until they were right inside their subsector and 
impossible for the Vilani to hide any longer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6380C.25968.9620C5@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 20:36, John T. Kwon wrote:

> If you also consider that Traveller gun combat is at about 
> the same range as a Cape Buffalo encounter, and you're 
> probably going to live for about as many shots (two, maybe 
> three), then I think that whatever makes a good Cape Buffalo 
> weapon might make a good Traveller combat weapon.
> 
> Let's see.  We'll make it .416 Remington, since we can still 
> get Speer tungsten core solids. 

Don't like the .416 Remington (unreasoning dislike - nothing I can pin 
down). I'd take either a .416 Rigby, a .458 Winchester or a .378 
Weatherby - the latter having the advantage of being a fine long-range 
weapon.
 
> The rifle should be a 4-shot controlled-feed pre-64 
> Winchester action (with fixed ejector).  Barrel length should 
> be 22 inches, and we'll go with a muzzle brake.

That's a horridly short barrel for a round like any of the .416s, and 
with a muzzle brake on it you're not going to be making friends of your 
allies, that's for sure.

> The stock 
> should be optimized for firing on your hind legs, and we'll 
> put a Trijicon Reflex sight on top, with express sights just 
> in case that gets broken.

Now this I can agree on, though a x2 - x5 vari-power scope would be a 
nice altenative (gives the option of longer shots).

> Get yourself a pouch that holds 20 rounds, maybe keep 40 
> rounds in your pack.  More than enough for most Traveller 
> adventures.

Yep.

I was thinking of another choice earlier today - the Lee-Enfield SMLE 
or No4. The .303 British is a fine round, and a bit milder than the .30-
06 or 7.92x57mm, and the Mark VII round is more wounding than you might 
think, thanks to careful design - it had an aluminium or peat insert in 
the nose of the bullet, making it 'rear heavy'. The bullet also has an 
exposed lead base (like most ball ammo of the time), which means that 
its rear is quite weak. The combination of these two features results 
in a bullet that tumbles rapidly in flesh (for a full-bore round) and 
flattens at the rear, resulting in something that spins like a sycamore 
seed. We once fired some into a 40 pound block of cheddar and the 
'wound track' was interesting and rather larger than that of .30-06 
ball, though not so large as that of a .30-06 soft nose. Of course this 
isn't a perfect demo, as cheese won't spring back from the temporary 
cavity the way a person's body will, but still.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB638C4.8619.98EF71@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 22:36, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).  
> But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You 
> know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or 
> perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.
> 
> Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I 
> need a bit of camp now and then.

Played it for years, back in the day. A friend of mine maintains that 
it's ruined his ability to enjoy newer SF games - they just aren't 
_real_ SF rpgs without Gene Day ink drawings, many typos and large 
sections of unplayable rules.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet... or even
the moon?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Huxton" <red@archonet.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:04 PM
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters


> Idle speculation from an idle speculator, and it must have been asked
> before...
>
> We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any upper limit
> ("that's no moon...")
>
> I had a sudden vision of a jump-capable planet working its way around the
> galaxy sucking gas giants dry between jumps.
>
> Any gearheads got a spreadsheet that can handle this?
>
> Oh, no cheating of course, you have to do this using LBB Book 2 rules at
TL13
> and bring the cost in at under 100MCr ;-)
>
> - Richard Huxton
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:37:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:37:08 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <20020410233434.B23469@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>; from res0i3sf@verizon.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:25:21PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CB63A21.15419.9E4377@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 23:34, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
> general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
> to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
> inexpensive ammunition.  There are all sorts of nice & nifty rifles,
> and I realise that the ammunition's not going to be cheap--but I'm
> really not up to paying 50c a round unless I really, really have to.
> 
> Thanks much!

My advice would be a .30-06, as it'll work on just about anything you 
have in the US (though I believe that most people consider it a little 
small for brown bear). If you're concerned about recoil something like 
a 7x57mm or 7mm Remington express would be fine, or a .243 winchester, 
6mm Remington or .25-06 for that matter. Now, that was lots of help, 
wasn't it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:39:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:39:08 2002
Subject: [TML] A 'Billion' Earth's.......
Message-ID: <20020411133823.87249.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com>

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_medical/story.jsp?story=283413

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <F97SgeR4UIS42NXHwGr0001bbad@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 6:00, Sam D wrote:

> As far as rifles, Savages are good and cheap.  Ugly though.  To be
> honest, there is not much difference between the bottom of the line
> Savage, Ruger, Winchester or Remington.  The nice thing about the
> latter two is that, if you ever decide to do so, you can upgrade the
> rifle easily.  All 4 brands will do the job and last several
> generations, and they all get pretty good accuracy out of the box. 
> Expect to spend at least $3-400 or so, which might include a cheap
> scope.  Check Wal-Mart.  Get a synthetic stock.  These rifles are so
> cheap, that it might be hard to find a used one for less. 

Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle 
you like the look of. As Jim Charmichel once said "You're a very lucky 
man if you get to spend more time firing your rifle than looking at 
it." That being the case there's no point getting a rifle you can't 
stand the sight of.

Another thing - unless you intend on doing a lot of long range shooting 
don't be too concerned about extreme accuracy - despite what many of us 
have been ranting on about getting 2" at 100 yards is plenty good 
enough for most (non-varmint) hunting - that's still a deer's lower 
chest at 300 yards, easy.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:43:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:43:35 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411013453.029c0450@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB63B80.28309.A39F58@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 1:39, laning wrote:

> People who are liking lighter rounds are also exceptionally skilled shots 
> and I think factoring in their ability at shot placement more than I myself 
> would be comfortable with.  Heard way too many stories from excellent shots 
> who lost deer that they good pretty good hits on using .30-'06.  I'm not 
> saying they won't get their one-shot kills with lighter rounds.  Just that 
> I'd rather not rely on that kind of thing if it were me.
> 
> Some of the recent posts on the topic to the TML are modifying my opinions, 
> but only somewhat.

One thing that struck me - in all this 5.56 vs 7.62 nobody has 
suggested that that P90 thingie's round (I forget it's designation) 
would be a desirable alternative.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:48:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:48:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
In-Reply-To: <memo.437377@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CB63CCB.4807.A8A983@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 7:58, Megan Robertson wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410180651.009f12d0@mindspring.com>
> When in the British army, I got bawled out for not wearing my stripes on 
> combat clothing (they were correctly displayed on other uniforms). I 
> pointed out that in the field: -
> 
> a. I didn't want the enemy to know what rank I was.
> b. My own people knew me already.
> 
> I then added some removable stripes, which only went on when there was an 
> officer around :-)

We didn't (and don't) wear rank in the field. In fact we went to having 
NCO rank on removeable brassards so that you didn't have to have so 
many different shirts, and so that it could be taken off and put on 
again depending on circumstances more readily. Wearing rank in the 
field is about as bright as saluting in the field. In fact it was SOP 
for field dress to have no insignia on it at all now that I think about 
it.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <200204111145.DVD01524@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB63DAD.23897.AC1EE3@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 7:45, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Robert Uhl asks about a GP rifle
> <snip>
> A Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 for deer. Just right.
> 
> Not truly reliable for elk, but it's been done.

Just to keep things going - I'm not a fan big fan of the .30-30 (though 
I nearly bought one ten years ago - got an SKS instead), as IMO it's 
underpowered for larger deer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
 <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20020411155818.5b11fc3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Christopher Pratt wrote:
> What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet... or
even
> the moon?

Calculations for Luna follow:

Using a diameter of 3.476 E+6 meters:

Volume: 1.759 E+20 cubic meters

Displacement: 1.257 E+19 displacement tons

Surface area: 3.796 E+13 square meters

FF&S2 structural factor: 1.037 E+25

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204111402.DVH05321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>On 11 Apr 2002 at 1:39, laning wrote:
>Heard way too many stories from excellent shots 
> who lost deer that they good pretty good hits on using .30-
>'06.

A good shot is not necessarily a good hunter.  Some misguided 
souls believe that a bullet is a magical item that will make 
up for a rump shot, or a hit low in the belly.

There are, indeed, rounds that will enter the back end of a 
moose and come out the front, disrupting everything on the 
way through.  But it's better to pick where you're going to 
hit.  And consider what effect that's going to have.  This 
often means passing up a shot, or waiting for the animal to 
change aspect.

I'm convinced that the concepts brought out in Fackler's work 
apply to all animals.  You need a hit on the major nervous 
systems (brain or high in the spinal cord), or you need a hit 
that will get the animal to perish from hemorrhagic shock.  I 
have found that it's best to try to break bone in deer, 
because they can still run while bleeding to death.  Since 
I'm not doing headshots on deer, I try to break the shoulder 
in particular.  I can't see how a .30-06 would fail to break 
the shoulder if loaded with a proper weight bullet (150 
grains or higher, 180 grains being typical).  

ObTrav: In my revision (or supplanting) of the various 
Traveller gun combat systems, I have a penetration 
threshold/degredation for armor.  Even if a round penetrates 
armor, there are limits then on how badly you can be hurt.  
Of course, if the weapon has a really high penetration value, 
then this effect can be overcome, in much the same way that a 
really powerful hunting caliber can make up for shooting elk 
or moose from behind.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <F117uMJ4ySUfjhcgrqo00002681@hotmail.com>

Robert A. Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

You simply need a higher quality worst enemy to give it to.
:-)

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
Walsm Penor, or Terith Smipel, depending on which
iteration of the Lucasian name generator we're using.
I kind of like Terith Penor.

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:42:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:42:07 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F107XkF81yvoXFMxmyh000181e3@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>I'm convinced that the concepts brought out in Fackler's work
>apply to all animals.

I think this is a very good point.  Whether you are a hunter, acting in self 
defense, a cop or a soldier, your objective should be the same.  Despite 
occassional talk that hunters are content to let a wounded deer slip away or 
are very concerned about damaging too much meat, my experience is just the 
opposite.  Most of the hunters I know, if an animal does not drop like a 
sack of bricks, immediately start thinking about practicing more or getting 
a more powerful rifle.  In fact, hunters and cops seem to take "stopping 
power" much more seriously than the military.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F99548IlvMTkL01NspD000142b4@hotmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn said:

>Just to keep things going - I'm not a fan big fan of the .30-30 (though
>I nearly bought one ten years ago - got an SKS instead), as IMO it's
>underpowered for larger deer.

Although I have learned that one must tread carefully when critisizing the 
30/30, I tend to agree.  My problem is not so much with its stopping power 
as with its poor ballistics.  The 30/30's point blank range is only like 200 
yards, while you will get 300 or more with a more modern cartridge.  The 
accuracy is pretty bad too, and difficult to remedy, but adequate for short 
range.  It is a fine looking weapon, but unless longer shots are out of the 
question I would get a bolt action.

You are better off getting a cheap rifle and a more expensive scope.  Unless 
you are a very skilled rifleman, a decent scope (either 4x, 2-7 or 3-9) is a 
great asset.  Nice binocs are also important.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411075617.009f3d90@mindspring.com>

At 10:36 PM 4/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).

Actually, when I get the time and energy to run games, they tend to be 
deadly serious.


>Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I
>need a bit of camp now and then.

I loved that game!  I think the authors got paid by the subcase in the rules.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:12:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Kim)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:12:09 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB63B80.28309.A39F58@localhost>
References: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
 <3CB63B80.28309.A39F58@localhost>
Message-ID: <p05101502b8db5700ec4e@[10.0.1.10]>

At 1:42 AM +1200 4/12/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

>One thing that struck me - in all this 5.56 vs 7.62 nobody has
>suggested that that P90 thingie's round (I forget it's designation)
>would be a desirable alternative.

	5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar 
helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target 
(titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle 
velocity of 715m/s.

	http://www.remtek.com/arms/fn/p90/index.htm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:26:10 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204111525.DVL00842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
<snip about the .30-30, buying a weapon, scope, etc>

Most hunters I know (unless they are out west where the 
terrain permits it) don't shoot past 100 yards.  Yes, the .30-
30 has a range limit (look at the energy drop off for 5.56 
while you're at it), but 100 yards is just fine.  I like to 
get close.  I can hit paper way out there, but animals move 
in unpredictable ways, and I'm wanting to hit shoulder.

Keep in mind that many bolt-action/cartridge combinations are 
capable of working far beyond the shooter's ability.  The 
shooter will probably never explore that limit.  Many hunters 
I have met are not capable of shooting up to what they carry, 
not to mention even a lowly .30-30.

Many bolt-action stocks are not natural pointers - it always 
seems uncomfortable in the standing, kneeling, or sitting 
position.  Sometimes I think that the designer figured that 
everyone wants a flat beavertail fore-end for shooting from 
the bench.  Screw that.  I hate my Sendero precisely because 
it doesn't "point".

The typical lever-action Marlin or Winchester will point like 
there's no tomorrow - a good factor for a beginning (or even 
experienced) shooter who is shooting in the field.  Tod may 
laugh and figure I'm like that guy who brought us the M-14 
stock.

At 100 yards, you can get excellent results without a scope.  
If you have a Marlin 336, you can get a rear fold-down peep 
sight for about 25 dollars.  Sight this in, and go practice 
shooting on your hind legs at 50 to 100 yards.  If you can 
find a little valley, you can practice shooting downhill, 
uphill, etc.  Carry a pack with some paper plates and 
thumbtacks.  Practice standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone 
to see which one you're most comfortable with, and which one 
you find quick.  At home, you can practice getting into 
positions using your empty rifle.  Many people *never* 
practice this.  Learning what your body likes and dislikes 
about positions, and learning what makes a solid position 
only comes from this practice.

A good sling is also essential.  Many like the Ching Sling, 
but I am still fond of the leather military two-piece.  Stay 
slung up with this, and you can shoot standing to 100 yards 
with great accuracy.

A Win 94 or Marlin 336 may be cheap, may not be tackdrivers, 
but with little extra equipment, they can put a softpoint 
onto a paper plate at 100 yards very quickly.

If you're interested in reloading your cartridges, you can 
get a fairly inexpensive Lee 2001 (single station frame 
press).  I still have the one I got in 1984, and although 
I've gotten better dies and tools, I find it just as good as 
my Redding or RCBS.  This will lower the cost of your shots, 
and will allow you to spend more time with your hobby.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:32:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:32:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F70SDx1kLwxTQTYkWSz00001108@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "Yep. The Vilani already had problems when the Terrans turned up. They 
no longer had a monoploy on jump drives and were  suffering from piracy from 
outside their borders by minor races. That's why they thought the Terrans 
were just a bunch of pirates to start with."


Mr. Boleyn,

     I thought the "Outies" were all recruited, armed, and paid for by 
factions in the Ziru Sirka.  The Vargr were the exception in all of this 
because most of them hadn't rounded Windhorn yet and they don't have the 
staying power necessary for conquest (as we all detailed in the problems 
with the DGP's Rebellion).  Sounds as if I'm going to have to sit down and 
think about this much, much, MUCH more.
     The local ZS reps may have thought the Terrans were pirates up to a 
point, but only fools or traitors would have thought so after the 2nd IW and 
the Vilani visit to the Sol system.

     "Because the Vargr were not that far from Vland, and were an altogether 
higher priority."

     In the coreward sections of the ZS, sure, but in the early days the ZS 
Rim should have been able to handle Sol on their own.  IIRC, the ZS core 
fleet was dispatched to deal with the Terrans late in the IW period, but the 
Confederation already had jump3 technology and mousetrapped the ZS fleet.

     "As for the minor races - the Vilani controlled the transport and 
information flow, so the subject races may not have even heard of the 
Terrans until they were right inside their subsector and impossible for the 
Vilani to hide any longer."

     Yeah, I've got to think this over even more.  To my mind, minor race 
rebellions aided and abetted by Terran infiltrators should be a big part of 
the Interstellar Wars.  There would have been uprisings and sabotage a 
sector or so "behind" the fighting front and the minor race allies providing 
the lower-TL cannon fodder for the Alliance's offensives.
     Thanks for the ideas to chew over.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 10:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 09:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
Message-ID: <4b.1b7f2094.29e70e82@aol.com>

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From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet 
cover.  In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.

   And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the first 
place? The Lt. maybe? lol!

  -Ken Murphy-



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;
<BR>
<BR>I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet 
<BR>cover. &nbsp;In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the first place? The Lt. maybe? lol!
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 11:46:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Thu Apr 11 10:46:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020411160312.A6708@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 11, 2002 04:03:12 PM
Message-ID: <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
> > both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
> > physics as we know it,
> 
> That it does.  :)
> 
> I've worked out a set of variations on all the fundamental constants
> that works.  However, upon doing the equations it just works out
> equivalent to measuring things in grams instead of kilograms. :/
> 
> There was no *real* difference at all, including interaction with the
> outside world.  Oh well :(

Really? Hmm... this makes me think about that last example you
posed:

> OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
> the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
> a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
> strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
> hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
> when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
> decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
> just one simple example.
> 
> Hence inertial suppression requires more than just changing the
> strength of forces.  If you want the atoms to behave the same way, you
> need to alter fundamental constants as well.
 
Why does h influence the size of the atom?

Also, how do we know that h is a fundamental constant and not
dependant on the factors we might be changing (i.e. fundamental
forces) with the intertial suppression scheme?

That said:
I presume m_e is mass of electron and q_e is charge of the electron.
pi is 'pi', and h is plank's.  I'm not sure what eps_0... something
about the electrostatic attraction?

Are you saying that by reducing the mass, the orbitals of the electrons
are going to be larger?

I'm not completely sure how plank's constant enters into this.

If you say you are reducing the effect of an electronic charge by the
same percentage that you are reducing the mass, all should be good,
even if that means plank's constant has changed, which, I admit, I
was hoping to avoid... but when you mentioned that you created a
set of mechanics which worked perfectly well w/ all the constants
changing... hmm.

I'm thinking that perhaps these constants come out of evaluating
quantities such as the size of an atom.... in other words, perhaps
ZPF taming (inertial suppression & fundamental force suppression)
would end up modifying these so-called constants. But I don't know
enough about plank's to really make that assessment. Basically, what
I'm driving at here, is if you dropped the values of the fundamental
forces, would planck's constant also change as a result of that? If
so, then we've got a bit of a squirrely situation which might just
work mathematically, but which would make your average physics
doctorate have a cow.

On this assumption that this doesn't work, however:
> > so it seems that I'm going to have to relent and give up on this
> > idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes infeasible, and we're left
> > with FTL (which has already been done to death).
> 
> Almost all forms of FTL violate physics as we know it, too.  Don't
> take my insistence that inertia suppression doesn't work with known
> physics and chemistry to mean that I'd choke and barf if I saw it in a
> game.  I quite enjoyed the "Lensman" series, after all :)

Well, I'm sorta torn between this idea and Alcubierre's FTL (space
warping) idea, but we've discussed that one a few months ago, and
if I remember correctly, you made the contention that it leads to
wormholes and time travel, which we really don't want to deal with.
That's (a small) part of the reason I was hoping to use this inertial
suppression idea instead, but if it can't be explained in a way that
a physics major would say... "hmm... interesting... and I can't really
disprove it either... nor does it lead to ridiculous & exploitable
technologies" then maybe it shouldn't be used. I'm shooting for
something with a hard-SF feel. If we wanted soft-SF, we'd use
hyperspace and quasispace from starcon2.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:04:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:04:42 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F99EjKuZA11Fr9YawOu000146f1@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon says:

>Most hunters I know (unless they are out west where the
>terrain permits it) don't shoot past 100 yards.

I live in the West, and the 30/30 is virtually extinct as a sporting arm 
here.  Under 100 yard shot are very uncommon, and most guys are unsatisfied 
with their 300 yard rifles.   It seems like everybody is buying one of the 
new 300 Magnums, in the hope of going farther.

We tend to forget that the 30/30 in many places is all that is needded.

>Keep in mind that many bolt-action/cartridge combinations are
>capable of working far beyond the shooter's ability.  The
>shooter will probably never explore that limit.  Many hunters
>I have met are not capable of shooting up to what they carry,
>not to mention even a lowly .30-30.

Unfortunately, that is very true.  A 300 Mag does not make a guy a good 
shot; in fact, the opposite is usually the case.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:08:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:08:23 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F56z8kI063RA5C2duii00023931@hotmail.com>

Justin Kim said:

>	5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar
>helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target
>(titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle
>velocity of 715m/s.

Is that a FN pistol round?  Are they talking about using it in anything 
other than a pistol?

There was a lot of heartache going from .45 to 9m; can you imagine the howls 
if they went to a .22 pistol?

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:12:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <f8.19b3e031.29e72b62@aol.com>

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   Penis bones aside, the Space Axe(tm) stuff has been pretty interesting. 
Its got me wondering as to its actual performance characteristics.
   Lets take a look at axes:
   In MT, the Handaxe has Pen 6, Blocks 1, and does 3 Damage, while our 
friend the Battleaxe has Pen 8, Blocks 1, and also delivers 3 Damage.
   Now the Broadsword, for example, has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is less 
than 10, and I'm thinking our Space Axe(tm) should have a similar modifier of 
some sort; clearly seperating the thing's use by those in BD (or grotesquely 
jacked up with boinics and the like), and the relatively weak Everyone Else.
   I'm thinking the Space Axe has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is currently 
less than 20; making it act as a "normal" Battleaxe when weilded by 
non-BDers. This would mean our Ronco Space Axe(tm) would have Pen 16 when 
_properly_ used with BD and the like.
   Would this thing have a pick at the opposite end like a fireman's axe, or 
be double headed? I'm more for the pick end, myself. 
   One thing I liked from an old Challenge or Digest article on Low tech 
weapons, gave a reduction to the protection provided by "plate" (and, by my 
"logical" extension, Combat Armor and Battle Dress) against different 
weapons. Mostly the weapons sited were blunt ones; blades (and axes, IIRC) 
not receiving any armor mods.   
   Anyhow, one weapon, the Pick, reduced "Plate's" protection by -4 right 
off. That might be a handy little modifier to use when weilding the axe 
pick-end first :)
   I liked the idea of a rocket-assist on the downstroke as well, but am 
unable to figure any mods for _that_---maybe it gives the thing 4 Damage 
instead of 3? ;P
   Darn! Now I'm starting to wonder about all those creepy-looking chainsaw 
blades and the like I see on those Warhammer figures...
  -Ken Murphy-

 "When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer 
for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out 
of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God 
Almighty have mercy on you!" 

Legion of the Damned
Sven Hassel

   
   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Penis bones aside, the Space Axe(tm) stuff has been pretty interesting. Its got me wondering as to its actual performance characteristics.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Lets take a look at axes:
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;In MT, the Handaxe has Pen 6, Blocks 1, and does 3 Damage, while our friend the Battleaxe has Pen 8, Blocks 1, and also delivers 3 Damage.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Now the Broadsword, for example, has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is less than 10, and I'm thinking our Space Axe(tm) should have a similar modifier of some sort; clearly seperating the thing's use by those in BD (or grotesquely jacked up with boinics and the like), and the relatively weak Everyone Else.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I'm thinking the Space Axe has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is currently less than 20; making it act as a "normal" Battleaxe when weilded by non-BDers. This would mean our Ronco Space Axe(tm) would have Pen 16 when _properly_ used with BD and the like.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Would this thing have a pick at the opposite end like a fireman's axe, or be double headed? I'm more for the pick end, myself. 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;One thing I liked from an old Challenge or Digest article on Low tech weapons, gave a reduction to the protection provided by "plate" (and, by my "logical" extension, Combat Armor and Battle Dress) against different weapons. Mostly the weapons sited were blunt ones; blades (and axes, IIRC) not receiving any armor mods. &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Anyhow, one weapon, the Pick, reduced "Plate's" protection by -4 right off. That might be a handy little modifier to use when weilding the axe pick-end first :)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I liked the idea of a rocket-assist on the downstroke as well, but am unable to figure any mods for _that_---maybe it gives the thing 4 Damage instead of 3? ;P
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Darn! Now I'm starting to wonder about all those creepy-looking chainsaw blades and the like I see on those Warhammer figures...
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR>
<BR><P ALIGN=CENTER> "When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God Almighty have mercy on you!" 
<BR><P ALIGN=LEFT>
<BR>Legion of the Damned
<BR>Sven Hassel
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</P></P></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:14:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:14:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Adios Pirates!
Message-ID: <20020411181056.4612.qmail@earthlink.net>

And you thought Traveller pirates had it rough.

-- quote --

ABCNews.com

April 10 &#8212; They may not have patches over their eyes, parrots on their shoulders, and bottles of rum in their hands, but modern-day pirates are preying on the weak and the unwary.

From Borneo to Baja California, pirate attacks &#8212; up 400 percent in the last decade &#8212; are bolder and bloodier than ever. Like their legendary predecessors, they pose a serious threat to tankers, freighters and sailors across the world. And, according to some experts, many more attacks go unreported, especially in tourist spots. "The crimes are becoming more and more audacious," says Kim Petersen, a security expert who tracks pirates. "They're after whatever they can get."

Though no cruise ships have been attacked recently, the cruise lines are now so worried about piracy and hijacking that they've hired Gurkhas, Nepalese soldiers skilled with knives and swords, to protect their ships and passengers...

-- end quote --

The rest of the story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Downtown/2020/Downtown_020410_pirates_feature.html

-- 


David Smart



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:17:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:17:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Adios Pirates!
Message-ID: <20020411181134.84657.qmail@earthlink.net>

And you thought Traveller pirates had it rough.

-- quote --

ABCNews.com

April 10 &#8212; They may not have patches over their eyes, parrots on their shoulders, and bottles of rum in their hands, but modern-day pirates are preying on the weak and the unwary.

From Borneo to Baja California, pirate attacks &#8212; up 400 percent in the last decade &#8212; are bolder and bloodier than ever. Like their legendary predecessors, they pose a serious threat to tankers, freighters and sailors across the world. And, according to some experts, many more attacks go unreported, especially in tourist spots. "The crimes are becoming more and more audacious," says Kim Petersen, a security expert who tracks pirates. "They're after whatever they can get."

Though no cruise ships have been attacked recently, the cruise lines are now so worried about piracy and hijacking that they've hired Gurkhas, Nepalese soldiers skilled with knives and swords, to protect their ships and passengers...

-- end quote --

The rest of the story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Downtown/2020/Downtown_020410_pirates_feature.html

-- 


David Smart



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:19:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:19:33 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F56z8kI063RA5C2duii00023931@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 11:05 AM, Sam D at samdx@hotmail.com wrote:

> Justin Kim said:
> 
>> 5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar
>> helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target
>> (titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle
>> velocity of 715m/s.
> 
> Is that a FN pistol round?  Are they talking about using it in anything
> other than a pistol?

It's also the round for the FN P90.

It would be interesting to compare it's lethality to the 9mm ball round that
it would replace.  Energy is only a little more than the 9mm but the recoil
should be nothing.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:56:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Kim)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:56:25 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <p05101503b8db8ae2c7f1@[10.0.1.10]>

At 11:17 AM -0700 4/11/02, Tod Glenn wrote:

>It's also the round for the FN P90.
>
>It would be interesting to compare it's lethality to the 9mm ball round that
>it would replace.  Energy is only a little more than the 9mm but the recoil
>should be nothing.

	It's supposed to leave large nasty wound cavities in the 
target.  The website I referenced in my last post used to have a 
picture of the track the round left in a block of ballistic gelatin. 
I'm a complete novice, but it looked unpleasant to me :)

	The 5.7x28mm round was designed to replace the 9mm because of 
the 9mm's poor armor penetrating capabilities.

Justin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:09:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:09:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409141814.027d2810@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20411.112148.1F4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>>> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where 
>>> you were born.

Leoer McSan

I *don't* think so...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:10:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:10:59 2002
Subject: [TML] RealLife(tm) Battledress, next chapter
In-Reply-To: <204AD90A.F27541C2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20411.112029.5P7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Gee, you sent this on March 3, 1987. Slow X-boat?

In mail you write:

> This is kinda fun...
>
> http://www.aro.army.mil/soldiernano/
>
>
> David

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:12:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:12:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018393991.5137.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20411.112329.6T1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>> Keep in mind that while the *energy* of the pulse might only be a few
>> kilojoules the *power* level will be in the megawatt to gigawatt range.
>> Pulses of 1 millisecond or *shorter* will be wanted, both to avoid
>> problems with target movement, but also because the shorter duration
>> tends to increase the "shock" effect due to increased rapidity of
>> energy deposition.
>
> Think microsecond.  You want to create a supersonic shock effect.

That pushes the 1 kJ pulse to *gigawatt* power levels in the rifle. 
Even if it's only for a microsecond, a gigawatt is a lot of power.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:14:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:14:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D99A5C.382DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20411.120223.5O8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/9/02 11:41 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> 
>>> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).
>>> A 65 gram projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.
>> 
>> 65 grams is about 2.3 *ounces*. Ouch.
>> 
>> 4800 fps = ~1460 m/s.
>> 
>> Yeek! That's almost 70 kiloJoules muzzle energy!
>> 
>> Yeah, that'd make folks go splat.
>
> I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.
>
> 69,562 Joules of energy
> 1,130 joules of free recoil
>
> 25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)

Or the equivalent of 16.6 grams of TNT.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:19:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:19:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204111918.DVS00303@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

shadow@krypton.rain.com says
>
>That pushes the 1 kJ pulse to *gigawatt* power levels in the 
>rifle. Even if it's only for a microsecond, a gigawatt is a 
lot of power.
>
You should realize then the power of the current smokeless 
powder cartridges.  We're raising 5 to 8 kJ (depending on 
caliber) in seven-tenths of a millisecond.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:21:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:21:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F1848kFEs6x7Oq6q4sM0001f07c@hotmail.com>

From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>

     "Riiiiiight.  And the United States singlehandedly beat Hitler and
liberated Europe.  Just ask any contemporary 'Merkun.  (Okay, maybe the 
Limeys helped us out some, but not those dirty Reds, no sir.  And definitely 
not the French - all they know how to do is surrender.  What?  The Chinese?  
Were they *in* WW2?)"


Mr. St.Clair,

     Exactly my point, sir!  The Yanks no more singlehandedly beat Adolph 
than the Terran Confederation singlehandedly beat the Ziru Sirka.
     In the center, the Vilani were engaged in realpolitik factional games 
amongst themselves, complete with "outie" mercs and personal armies.  Along 
the coreward frontier, the Vargr were sniffing about, some recruited and 
used for internal ZS power politics and others still feral and rading 
willy-nilly.  And, scattered throughout the empire, were dozens of restless 
minor races, chafing at the Vilani collar around their collective necks and 
waiting for the slightest provocation to rebel.
     The Terrans had help, and lots of it.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:38:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:38:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204111937.DVT02415@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
>
>     "Riiiiiight.  And the United States singlehandedly beat 
>Hitler and liberated Europe. 

UK, very helpful
USSR, extremely helpful
Chinese, yes very
in fact, it was "world war" for a reason.  It took half the 
world to defeat the Axis.

It could also be argued that without the United States, the 
Germans would have won the war.  So no one could do the whole 
job - it had to be done together.

The French -- for the ones that actually helped, were only a 
distraction to keep Germans occupied elsewhere.  Many French 
were wholehearted collaborators.  They don't want to mention 
this -- in fact, "everyone" was in the Maquis.  They gladly 
handed over 1 million Jews, Socialists, homosexuals, and 
other "undesireables" over to the Germans.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:56:08 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200
References: <F97SgeR4UIS42NXHwGr0001bbad@hotmail.com> <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020411135544.A25603@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle 
> you like the look of.

Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
_ugly_:-(

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Mark Twain famously noted that those who are interested in the law or
sausage should never watch either made.  In the years since he made the
remark, there has been considerable reform in sausage making.
                                          --Dennis E. Powell

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:58:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:58:12 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <200204111525.DVL00842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:25:35AM -0400
References: <200204111525.DVL00842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020411135704.B25603@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:25:35AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> A good sling is also essential.  Many like the Ching Sling, 
> but I am still fond of the leather military two-piece.  Stay 
> slung up with this, and you can shoot standing to 100 yards 
> with great accuracy.

I've never actually figured out how to use a sling...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Verbogeny is one of the pleasurettes of a creatific thinkerizer.
                                               --Peter da Silva

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
>food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
>parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
>they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
>                --Socrates, c.  5th century BC

"  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
   abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
   man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
   end of the world is fast approaching."
                          - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:11:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:11:12 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204112010.g3BKAVh12588@mailbag.com>

"Sam D" 
> John T. Kwon says:
> 
> >Most hunters I know (unless they are out west where the
> >terrain permits it) don't shoot past 100 yards.
> 
> I live in the West, and the 30/30 is virtually extinct as a sporting arm 
> here.  Under 100 yard shot are very uncommon, and most guys are unsatisfied 
> with their 300 yard rifles.   It seems like everybody is buying one of the 
> new 300 Magnums, in the hope of going farther.



By the same token, I live in Wisconsin. 100 yards? Try 100 feet real often. 

All I need for any hunting I do is my old Ithica 12 Gauge pump: Slugs for deer 
and (steel) shot for birds. I also have a flintlock in .50", but that's for fun 
not for hunting. I may someday get a .308 for a hunting rifle, but honestly 
there's nothing I want to hunt that I would need anything more than that 12.

Plus, IMHO, it's the best home defense weapon available. 

William




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204112013.DVT07701@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>I've never actually figured out how to use a sling...

Get a book on three-position shooting.  There will be a 
section on using the sling.  Make sure that you buy 
a "proper" two-piece leather sling (it will set you back more 
than the cheap nylon straps that you see on the shelf).

Once you "sling up" properly, you will be surprised at the 
level of stability you can achieve.  As long as its not too 
tight, you can walk around slung up like this.  

ObTrav:  This, and the Ching Sling, are the only "sling" 
types that I will give a +DM for accuracy.  Those 
other "things" are just fancy padded carrying straps.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:46:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:46:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>; from shadow@krypton.rain.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:15:43PM -0800
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net> <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020411144523.A25786@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:15:43PM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> "  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
>    abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
>    man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
>    end of the world is fast approaching."
>                           - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC

.sig slurped...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
'Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US
 companies like Microsoft.'                         --some AOLer
'To this end we dedicate ourselves...'                     --Don

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:47:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:47:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
References: <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CB5F5F1.3050200@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
> 
> 
>>Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
>>food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
>>parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
>>they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
>>               --Socrates, c.  5th century BC
> 
> 
> "  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
>    abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
>    man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
>    end of the world is fast approaching."
>                           - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC
> 

Some of the pictures in the caves in Lascaux express the same things, 
I'll bet.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 15:25:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 14:25:08 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
parts of the debate to TML chat?

Or else I'll begin posting socialist and communist propaganda...

(not a serious threat, but about as relevant)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 15:29:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 11 14:29:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F247Acvgn29MhIydI8o0001bb2c@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "The French -- for the ones that actually helped, were only a
distraction to keep Germans occupied elsewhere.  Many French were 
wholehearted collaborators.  They don't want to mention this -- in fact, 
"everyone" was in the Maquis.  They gladly handed over 1 million Jews, 
Socialists, homosexuals, and other "undesireables" over to the Germans."


Mr. Kwon,

     The French wheat and meat fed the Nazi war machine.  French hands and 
concrete built the Atlantic Wall and the submarine pens.  French rails 
shipped men and materials without delay or hindrance.
     All of Holland worked for their resistance, the Germans had a devil of 
time finding collaborators there.  The Danes, from the King on down, wore 
the yellow Star of David and helped their Jews escape to Sweden.  Yugoslavia 
was a hardship post with constant fighting.  The Czechs killed the Nazi 
gauleiters assigned there.  Norway meant you had to live in armed camps and 
the Eastern Front was litle more than a death sentence, but France...  
France was where you got posted if you were a good little Nazi!

Q:  Why do the French plant trees along the side of the road?
A:  So the Germans can march in the shade.

ObTrav - So, from the Vilani point of view, who were the "French" to the 
Terran's "Nazis" during the Interstellar Wars?  The Vegans?  Some other 
human minor race?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 15:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 14:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
Message-ID: <200204112147.DVX03585@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

There's the 100d limit.  Given.

Is there not some safety standoff distance from one jump 
drive to another?  And what would that distance be?  Could 
you make someone misjump (along with yourself)?

I've read in the archive about "grav" generators to bump 
people out of hyperspace, and jump projectors to throw people 
into the middle of nowhere.

But on a simpler level, I feel that one jump field powering 
through a jump would interfere with another, at least at the 
point of departure.  Thoughts?
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:20:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:20:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020411160312.A6708@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020412081911.B9083@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> Why does h influence the size of the atom?

The size of the atom depends upon the shape of the wavefunction of the
electrons in their ground state.  Roughly speaking, the probability of
finding an electron at a given distance from the atom starts to drop
off sharply at a distance determined by the relations of quantum
mechanics.  Those relation involve h.


> Also, how do we know that h is a fundamental constant and not
> dependant on the factors we might be changing (i.e. fundamental
> forces) with the intertial suppression scheme?

We don't.  The only problem is that if you change h (and everything
associated with it) to fit the requirement that people remain alive,
you get the result that nothing changes at all, including how much
acceleration the ship can take or how much power it takes to
accelerate it.


> I presume m_e is mass of electron and q_e is charge of the electron.
> pi is 'pi', and h is plank's.  I'm not sure what eps_0... something
> about the electrostatic attraction?

Yes; the electrostatic attractive force between two charges is
proportional to 1/(4 pi eps_0).  It is usually written as a greek
epsilon symbol with a subscript 0, but that's not possible in ASCII.


> Are you saying that by reducing the mass, the orbitals of the electrons
> are going to be larger?

If you don't change Planck's constant, yes.  The equation governing
the wavefunction of the electron (or any other thing, for that matter)
has a factor of (h^2 / 2 m) in it.  So the mass affects the shape.  It
turns out that if you reduce the mass and energy levels by a factor of
100, the distances increase by a factor of 100^2.


> Basically, what I'm driving at here, is if you dropped the values of
> the fundamental forces, would planck's constant also change as a
> result of that?

It appears not.  Planck's constant seems to be more fundamental than
the strengths of various forces.


> Well, I'm sorta torn between this idea and Alcubierre's FTL (space
> warping) idea, but we've discussed that one a few months ago, and
> if I remember correctly, you made the contention that it leads to
> wormholes and time travel, which we really don't want to deal with.

;^>  I can be a party-pooper, can't I?

Though I actually like the idea of FTL causality consequences.

Besides, wormholes probably automatically prevent causality paradoxes;
if they approach a configuration in which a closed timelike path
exists, zero-interval feedback may well destroy the wormholes involved
before you actually get any time travel effects.  This is a serious
conjecture in physics.  It also opens up interesting possibilities in
the game universe -- someone might do this deliberately for political
or military reasons.


> I'm shooting for something with a hard-SF feel.

You can still have FTL or inertial suppression with a hard-SF feel,
you just need to consider the consequences that physics geeks like me
are going to pick up, or alternatively try not go into details at all.
A rule of thumb is that you're allowed one big violation of
physics-as-we-know-it so long as you at least try to predict some of
the side effects.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:27:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:27:11 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>; from jenry023@student.liu.se on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:24:28PM +0200
References: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020411162610.A25877@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:24:28PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>
> Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> parts of the debate to TML chat?

Gun debate?  Do you mean the discussion of weapons useful for
killing/stopping roughly man-size targets?  Seems pretty on-topic to
me...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Asking a girl out is like finding sqrt(pi) using roman numerals.  --unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:30:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:30:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <200204112147.DVX03585@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411182555.01e801d0@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:47 PM 4/11/2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Is there not some safety standoff distance from one jump
>drive to another?  And what would that distance be?

My initial reaction is to say "100 diameters", or in this case, 100 ship 
lengths.  Beyond that distance, the jump field definitely won't be a 
problem.  Between 100 and 10 ship lengths, you've got possible problems, 
and under 10 ship lengths is definitely bad news.

Of course, the danger in this case is to both ships.  I would determine the 
result separately for each ship involved - so that one ship may not jump, 
or could misjump, or be destroyed, while the other ship has a different 
fate.  So you might make the other ship misjump (or you may not), but 
you're just as likely to misjump yourself.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:32:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:32:10 2002
Subject: [TML] FFS2 penetration
Message-ID: <B8DB5CBD.3972C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all.  How does one calculate penetration according FFS2 for small
arm?


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:36:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:36:10 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <200204112235.DVZ01545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>Gun debate?  Do you mean the discussion of weapons useful for
>killing/stopping roughly man-size targets?  Seems pretty on-
>topic to me...
>

Well, technically we could take it to tml-guntech.  We 
already have a considerable amount of discussion over there 
about weapons (what is a snub pistol anyway - go to tml-
guntech and find out..)

I try to have an ObTrav. Should I post my version of the 
combat system on tml or tml-guntech?
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:38:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:38:49 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155951.01dc24b0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8DB5E1A.39732%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 1:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Tod, what was the free recoil of that elephant rifle again?  For
> comparison.  I found your earlier calculations on the M1, M16, and gauss
> rifle, which were two orders of magnitude lower and then some compared to
> the above 65 gram bullet.
> 
> Hm, I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and plug in numbers for known
> weapons and science fiction weapons from time to time.  Then post on a Web
> site so all interested parties can reference it from time to time.

See my calculator at http://www.travellercentral.com

follow the links to House Rules : Projectile Weapons

(or go straight to http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/ke.html)

I just added penetration for TNE.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:41:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:41:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
Message-ID: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Derek Wildstar says
<snip derek's take on adjacent ships activating their 
hyperdrive>

That sounds pretty good. It means, however, that ships might 
have a minimum separation, which affects fleet actions.

Would we also have another problem a la B5? Starting one jump 
field within another?
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:43:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:43:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DB5EB6.39733%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 5:14 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> My first choice would probably be a .375 H&H. Much though I admire
> Weatherbys they cost too much and are generally over-powered if you're
> using solids - they'd tend to horribly over-penetrate anything but the
> heaviest game. With expansive bullets I'd drop to a .338 Winchester or
> .340 Weatherby unless in Africa, in which case the .375's would be the
> way to go, IMO. .416s and .458/.460s are good vs buffs, elephants, etc.
> but aren't long-range rounds, so you'd need a second rifle for those
> 300-500 yard shots on eland, etc.

Another classic 'smallbore'.  The only problem with the .375 H&H and rounds
based on it is that it requires a magnum length action. One of my alltime
favorites.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411183848.0188fa70@192.168.0.1>

Loren had mentioned a Traveller specific version of the GURPS character 
generation software was being considered.

Is this project a go?  If so, when would it see the light of day?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
           http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:51:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:51:15 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F107XkF81yvoXFMxmyh000181e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:41, Sam D wrote:

> I think this is a very good point.  Whether you are a hunter, acting
> in self defense, a cop or a soldier, your objective should be the
> same.  Despite occassional talk that hunters are content to let a
> wounded deer slip away or are very concerned about damaging too much
> meat, my experience is just the opposite. Most of the hunters I
> know, if an animal does not drop like a sack of bricks, immediately
> start thinking about practicing more or getting a more powerful
> rifle.  In fact, hunters and cops seem to take "stopping power" much
> more seriously than the military. 

To let an animal get away to die slowly over the course of hours or 
days is IMO horribly cruel, and utterly unsportsmanlike. I've had many 
arguments with people over goat culling because of this. For some years 
back in the 90s it was common 'sport' for a couple of guys to drive out 
to the back of a farm with goat problems (getting the owner's 
permission first, of course) and shoot up the goats with semi-auto 
rifles. The most common choices were SKS carbines or semi-auto only 
AK's. It was also common for many to simply fire into a mod of goats 
and then let the survivors wander off, gut shot or with broken legs. 
When I pointed out that this was cruel and that they'd be upset if I 
were to do this to a dog or a deer they'd look blank and say "but 
they're only goats." Then they'd wonder why I wouldn't associate with 
them any more.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:53:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:53:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <200204112251.DVZ03066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>Loren had mentioned a Traveller specific version of the 
>GURPS character generation software was being considered.
>
I've got most of the GURPS material, but not GT.  (Ultra 
Tech, Space, but not GT).  

I could get a copy of GT and try my hand at it.  Are there a 
lot of variations from the basic GURPS?  It wouldn't take too 
long to do.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:50:50AM +1200
References: <F107XkF81yvoXFMxmyh000181e3@hotmail.com> <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020411170142.A26003@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:50:50AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> To let an animal get away to die slowly over the course of hours or 
> days is IMO horribly cruel, and utterly unsportsmanlike.

Agreed but...

> When I pointed out that this was cruel and that they'd be upset if I 
> were to do this to a dog or a deer they'd look blank and say "but 
> they're only goats."

In NZ are goats viewed simpy as nuisance animals, or as something
more?  I wouldn't feel overly bad about mortally a shark, snake, wolf
or coyote and leaving it to die, but I'd never do the same for a deer,
duck or other animal.

How much of this is based on perception, I wonder?  The animals I
don't care about I either hate (sharks and snakes) or consider
varmints and pests (wolves & coyotes), whereas the ones I do are ones
I respect.

That said, I cannot see goats as a `nasty' animal (like the feral ones
I mentioned).  Nuisances, but no more than that.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ubi non accusator, ibi non judex.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:04:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
In-Reply-To: <200204112251.DVZ03066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:51:24PM -0400
References: <200204112251.DVZ03066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020411170334.B26003@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:51:24PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> I could get a copy of GT and try my hand at it.  Are there a lot of
> variations from the basic GURPS?  It wouldn't take too long to do.

Probably the most work would be inputting the lists of skills &c.
You'll want to rewrite (not simply paraphrase) the skill descriptions,
as they are copyrighted.  There is a process to get permission to use
them, but I typically prefer that my work be as free as possible of
encumbrances.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"Oh bother," said the Borg, "We've assimilated Pooh."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:06:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:06:11 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 17:24, Jens Rydholm wrote:

> Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> parts of the debate to TML chat?
> 
> Or else I'll begin posting socialist and communist propaganda...
> 
> (not a serious threat, but about as relevant)

But how can guns not be relevant to Traveller? :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:07:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:07:40 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <F99548IlvMTkL01NspD000142b4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6BF68.28920.307BF2@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:54, Sam D wrote:

> You are better off getting a cheap rifle and a more expensive scope.
>  Unless you are a very skilled rifleman, a decent scope (either 4x,
> 2-7 or 3-9) is a great asset.  Nice binocs are also important. 

Also with a scope it's a good idea to get one in which the objective 
lens size divided by the power (for a vari-power about mid-range will 
do for this) is 7mm or more. Less than this and the light gathering 
capacity isn't the best, no matter how clear the optics, and the 
scope's utility will drop off quickly in poor light conditions. Thus 
4x32 is adequate, 4x40 is very nice (though more than 8-10mm is more 
than your eye can use) and 6x32 not the best.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:10:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:10:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F70SDx1kLwxTQTYkWSz00001108@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6C056.18523.341AE7@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 15:31, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Yeah, I've got to think this over even more.  To my mind, minor
> race rebellions aided and abetted by Terran infiltrators should be a
> big part of the Interstellar Wars.  There would have been uprisings
> and sabotage a sector or so "behind" the fighting front and the
> minor race allies providing the lower-TL cannon fodder for the
> Alliance's offensives. 

That would certainly make sense once things got going (say after IW4 or 
thereabouts).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:11:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:11:44 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F56z8kI063RA5C2duii00023931@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6C056.6241.341BB4@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 18:05, Sam D wrote:

> Justin Kim said:
> 
> >	5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar
> >helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target
> >(titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle
> >velocity of 715m/s.
> 
> Is that a FN pistol round?  Are they talking about using it in anything 
> other than a pistol?
> 
> There was a lot of heartache going from .45 to 9m; can you imagine the howls 
> if they went to a .22 pistol?

No, it's for their personal defence weapon, the P90. Basically it's a 
late 1990s take on the SMG, but using a cut down rifle round rather 
than a pistol round, so it has a much better effective range than a 
normal SMG. They're the toys being used in the later seasons of 
Stargate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <p05101503b8db8ae2c7f1@[10.0.1.10]>
References: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6C0AF.31055.357841@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:55, Justin Kim wrote:

> 	It's supposed to leave large nasty wound cavities in the 
> target.  The website I referenced in my last post used to have a 
> picture of the track the round left in a block of ballistic gelatin. 
> I'm a complete novice, but it looked unpleasant to me :)
> 
> 	The 5.7x28mm round was designed to replace the 9mm because of 
> the 9mm's poor armor penetrating capabilities.

However most gun-nuts I know have come to the conclusion that it's 
better than a pistol, but nothing near as good as the 5.56x45mm at just 
about anything, especially wounding.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:16:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:16:52 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
In-Reply-To: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DB66BD.3974E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 5:36 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> I'm trying to make up my mind between the .375 and the .338.
> Since I'm in N. America, it may be the .338.

For NA, .338 is going to be fine, unless you're in Alaska and shooting moose
and polar bear.  Even then, you could probably manage alright.

Given you predilection for sniping, I'm surprised you didn't mention the
.338 Lapua.
> 
> The situations that Traveller characters find themselves in
> are rarely more than a few opponents, and most are armed
> (depending on the GM, of course) with pistols and short range
> weapons.  In one past campaign, I did rather well with a
> single-shot falling block rifle in .375 H&H.  I was playing a
> PH, and this was my "walking about" rifle.  I was infamous
> for killing three other player characters by shooting down
> their custom air raft (first shot hit the driver through the
> front, the second shot disabled the powerplant and the other
> two plummeted to their deaths).
> 
> If you also consider that Traveller gun combat is at about
> the same range as a Cape Buffalo encounter, and you're
> probably going to live for about as many shots (two, maybe
> three), then I think that whatever makes a good Cape Buffalo
> weapon might make a good Traveller combat weapon.
> 
> Let's see.  We'll make it .416 Remington, since we can still
> get Speer tungsten core solids.
> 
> The rifle should be a 4-shot controlled-feed pre-64
> Winchester action (with fixed ejector).  Barrel length should
> be 22 inches, and we'll go with a muzzle brake.  The stock
> should be optimized for firing on your hind legs, and we'll
> put a Trijicon Reflex sight on top, with express sights just
> in case that gets broken.

The new Winchester 'Classic' has controlled feed, and IIRC a fixed ejector.
But go first class and get one of Pete Grissel's Dakotas.  I think I pick a
ghost ring over express sights for adventuring.  Maybe 1x LER scope mounted
scout-like.
> 
> A PH should be able to get two or three quick aimed shots off
> with something like this.  I haven't seen many Traveller-
> style combats last more than a few combat rounds. And you'll
> only have to hit another human *once* with something like
> this.  Tod might make it a .458, though.

Maybe .470NE in a Searcy double rifle.  Two *really* quick shots, and reload
speed is not too bad if you practice.  Of course you have to have the gun
regulated for the planet and area your on.

For Armored targets, there always the .577NE in the double gun.
> 
> Get yourself a pouch that holds 20 rounds, maybe keep 40
> rounds in your pack.  More than enough for most Traveller
> adventures.


More numbers, 'cause it's more gearhead like:
(Stats are for TNE - FFS.  Loads are from A-Square's "Any Shot You Want")

Weapon  KE      RE  Dam   Recoil    Pen
.223    1801    4   3       3       1-Nil
.308    3536    19  4       4       2-3-Nil
.338    5526    50  6       6       2-4-6
.375    6097    64  6       6       2-4-6
.416    7232    80  6       6       2-4-6
.458    7090    87  6       6       2-4-6
.460    9780   146  7       7       2-4-6
.577NE  9042   167  6       6       2-4-6
.577TR  13188  197  8       7       2-3-4
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:19:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:19:15 2002
Subject: [TML] News from Delphi
References: <20020410143005.F2EB127AB3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB61A54.E69EDB1@together.net>

> From: "Graham Donald" <gndonald@hotmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:11:56 +0800
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I was wondering how is the Delphi history project going, I looked at their
> site, but it hasn't been updated since 2000.
> 

	I'm not sure of which site you are looking at, but the Delphi project
continues. The main project board is on JTAS (http://jtas.sjgames.com/
), become a subscriber if you are not already. 
	February 5th issue of JTAS contains the Delphi Foundation document, an
article describing the history, including a set of maps showing the
historical progression of colonization in the sector, a description of
some of the nobility, and a few of the more predominate groups. 

	The landgrab has begun, with a few worlds claimed and more ideas tossed
around. In addition to the foundation document, I also have a summary of
the discussions up to the point of the the writing of the foundation
document. 

	So, if you'd like to do a landgrab, but without having explain 20 years
of canon, or would like a more settled sector to play in come on over to
Delphi. The nice, safe core of the Imperium. 
-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:21:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:21:11 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <20020411135544.A25603@4dv.net>
References: <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200
Message-ID: <3CB6C311.15964.3EC7C1@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 13:55, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > 
> > Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle 
> > you like the look of.
> 
> Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
> _ugly_:-(

I rather like Ruger's line of stainless and synthetics. The almost 
skeletal green stocks look quite cool, IMO.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:30:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:30:10 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20020411170142.A26003@4dv.net>
References: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:50:50AM +1200
Message-ID: <3CB6C54B.24759.4779CF@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 17:01, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> > When I pointed out that this was cruel and that they'd be upset if I 
> > were to do this to a dog or a deer they'd look blank and say "but 
> > they're only goats."
> 
> In NZ are goats viewed simpy as nuisance animals, or as something
> more?  I wouldn't feel overly bad about mortally a shark, snake, wolf
> or coyote and leaving it to die, but I'd never do the same for a deer,
> duck or other animal.

A serious nuisance - feral goats damage farmland near bush, and do a 
_lot_ of damage to native bush, as do opossums and wasps - all imports. 
Deer move from vermin to game and back again, depending on how many 
there are and on politics.
 
> How much of this is based on perception, I wonder?  The animals I
> don't care about I either hate (sharks and snakes) or consider
> varmints and pests (wolves & coyotes), whereas the ones I do are ones
> I respect.
> 
> That said, I cannot see goats as a `nasty' animal (like the feral ones
> I mentioned).  Nuisances, but no more than that.

Whereas I don't see any reason why the morality of leaving animals to 
suffer should depend on their 'pleasantness' or the worthiness as game.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:31:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:31:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DB5EB6.39733%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB6C54B.322.477957@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 15:39, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Another classic 'smallbore'.  The only problem with the .375 H&H and
> rounds based on it is that it requires a magnum length action. One of
> my alltime favorites. 

I've never been that impressed by arguments for this round or that 
round based on action length. IME the speed of an action has more to do 
with it's overall design than it's length, and 'short stroking' occurs 
when people get cute and try to speed their reload up by not drawing 
the bolt all the way to the rear. The fastest reliable reload, 
regardless of action length, is to draw the bolt back until it stops, 
than push forward and down in one smooth motion. It's that simple.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:34:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:34:11 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <3CB6C311.15964.3EC7C1@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DB6B04.39757%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 4:20 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

>> 
>> Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
>> _ugly_:-(
> 
> I rather like Ruger's line of stainless and synthetics. The almost
> skeletal green stocks look quite cool, IMO.

I go all over the place.  I like the look of a well made synthetic stock.
Not the plastic injection-molded ones, but the laminated  ones like H-S
Precision, Griffen and Bell and the like.

Nothing beats wood for looks though.  I have several nice pieces of walnut,
one Bubinga and one Cocobolo waiting to be inletted.  Cocobolo is very
beautiful, heavy, tough and expensive.  I wanted to bring the weight of my
.458 up and decided on a dense wood rather than a mercury recoil reducer.
The wood is georgeous.  Now to wait a year or two so it dries properly.

If things gel, my wife we get sent to the international law enforcement
academy in Botswana. If that happens, you know where I'll be. :)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:37:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:37:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
References: <200204111918.DVS00303@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d601c1e1b1$c48e36c0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Niches


> shadow@krypton.rain.com says
> >
> >That pushes the 1 kJ pulse to *gigawatt* power levels in the 
> >rifle. Even if it's only for a microsecond, a gigawatt is a 
> lot of power.
> >
> You should realize then the power of the current smokeless 
> powder cartridges.  We're raising 5 to 8 kJ (depending on 
> caliber) in seven-tenths of a millisecond.

5kJ in 0.0007s =>   7.14 MW
8kJ in 0.0007s => 11.43 MW

So you have about 100 times less power...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:00:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:00:15 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <B8DB6B04.39757%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB6C311.15964.3EC7C1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB6CC2B.3222.6256C7@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 16:32, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Nothing beats wood for looks though.  I have several nice pieces of walnut,
> one Bubinga and one Cocobolo waiting to be inletted.  Cocobolo is very
> beautiful, heavy, tough and expensive.  I wanted to bring the weight of my
> .458 up and decided on a dense wood rather than a mercury recoil reducer.
> The wood is georgeous.  Now to wait a year or two so it dries properly.

My father has a Swedish Mauser from 1899, and it has the most amazing 
tiger-stripe stock. The first thing we said when we saw it was "Now 
don't you wish you could put that stock on the .30-06?"
 
> If things gel, my wife we get sent to the international law enforcement
> academy in Botswana. If that happens, you know where I'll be. :)

Sitting at home minding the kids, of course.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:01:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:01:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <00d601c1e1b1$c48e36c0$52200050@matt>
References: <200204111918.DVS00303@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <00d601c1e1b1$c48e36c0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020412095904.A9693@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> 8kJ in 0.0007s => 11.43 MW
> 
> So you have about 100 times less power...

The best figures I've seen require about 20 MW for a laser weapon.  1
kJ in a microsecond is bad because you only get a surface explosion,
no penetration at all.  1 kJ in 100 pulses of about half a microsecond
each is much better.

Besides, I've personally built a laser that produces a pulse with a
power of about a gigawatt.  If properly made, it could fit into pistol
size.  Peak power means nothing.  Pulse *energies* and *sustained*
power are what makes weapon lasers difficult to build.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:04:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:04:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB6C54B.322.477957@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DB71E0.3977B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 4:30 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> I've never been that impressed by arguments for this round or that
> round based on action length. IME the speed of an action has more to do
> with it's overall design than it's length, and 'short stroking' occurs
> when people get cute and try to speed their reload up by not drawing
> the bolt all the way to the rear. The fastest reliable reload,
> regardless of action length, is to draw the bolt back until it stops,
> than push forward and down in one smooth motion. It's that simple.

It has more to do with the scarcity of magnum length actions that are
suitable for dangerous game.  Thankfully, Winchester has brought out the
'classic' action and some good stuff is coming in from Brno.  Sorry,
Remington just doesn't cut it and I don't care for Ruger.  That diagonal
screw is worthless.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:10:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:10:10 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB6C54B.24759.4779CF@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:30:19AM +1200
References: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>; <20020411170142.A26003@4dv.net> <3CB6C54B.24759.4779CF@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020411180903.A26285@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:30:19AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Whereas I don't see any reason why the morality of leaving animals to 
> suffer should depend on their 'pleasantness' or the worthiness as game.

I should point out that I'd not deliberately mis-hit the animals on my
hate-list, or even leave them to suffer; it's just that I wouldn't
track 'em down to deliver a mercy shot, whereas I would try to for the
better animals.  Rapid-firing into a herd of goats is right out.
About the only animals I'd even consider that about are sharks.  I
hate sharks.  And even then I'd poss. not condone it.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I can see an opening for the Four Lusers of the Apocalypse: `I didn't
change anything'; `My e-mail doesn't work';  `I can't print' and `Is the
network broken?'                                          --Paul McAuley

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:22:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:22:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DB71E0.3977B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB6C54B.322.477957@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB6D156.3272.7687E7@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 17:01, Tod Glenn wrote:

> It has more to do with the scarcity of magnum length actions that are
> suitable for dangerous game.  Thankfully, Winchester has brought out the
> 'classic' action and some good stuff is coming in from Brno.  Sorry,
> Remington just doesn't cut it and I don't care for Ruger.  That diagonal
> screw is worthless.

I've liked all the Ruger's I've handled, and not because of the screw, 
either. They've pointed fairly well, had decent triggers (for an out-of-
the-box rifle in their price range) and smooth actions. They also look 
pretty good to me (YMMV) and were accurate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:47:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:47:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
In-Reply-To: <4b.1b7f2094.29e70e82@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411172243.009f1c90@mindspring.com>

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At 12:06 PM 4/11/02 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet
>cover.  In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.
>
>   And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the first 
> place? The Lt. maybe? lol!

No, it was just part of the 3-color woodland cammo on the helmet 
cover.  Completely random.  But useful at night.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
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<html>
At 12:06 PM 4/11/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite><font face="arial" size=2>From:
Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt; <br><br>
I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet
<br>
cover.&nbsp; In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar. <br><br>
&nbsp; And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the
first place? The Lt. maybe? lol! </font></blockquote><br>
No, it was just part of the 3-color woodland cammo on the helmet
cover.&nbsp; Completely random.&nbsp; But useful at night.<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="arial" size=2>--<br><br>
Douglas E. Berry&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
gridlore@mindspring.com<br>
<a href="http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html" eudora="autourl">http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.</a><a href="http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html" eudora="autourl">html<br>
</a><a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/" eudora="autourl">http://</a>www.livejournal<a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/" eudora="autourl">.com/users/gridlore/</a><br><br>
&quot;Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<br>
sounds like they're snoring.&quot; - Harvey Danger</font></html>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:48:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:48:39 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020411162610.A25877@4dv.net>
References: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411172651.009f1230@mindspring.com>

At 04:26 PM 4/11/02 -0600, you wrote:
>On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:24:28PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> >
> > Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> > parts of the debate to TML chat?
>
>Gun debate?  Do you mean the discussion of weapons useful for
>killing/stopping roughly man-size targets?  Seems pretty on-topic to
>me...

Maybe at first, but it has long past the point where there is any 
game-usable material.

I agree, either private mail or TML-chat.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:51:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:51:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <200204120047.DWD04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>Probably the most work would be inputting the lists of 
>skills &c. You'll want to rewrite (not simply paraphrase) 
>the skill descriptions, as they are copyrighted.  There is a 
>process to get permission to use them, but I typically 
>prefer that my work be as free as possible of
>encumbrances.
>

I wouldn't mind the following: I write it exactly to the 
specs.  We get approval for a time-limited playtest - they 
say it's good, and they distribute it.  If they make 
anything,  I get a piece.  If it's for free, then I get my 
name on the package.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:06:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:06:10 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
Message-ID: <200204120105.DWD07544@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Given you predilection for sniping, I'm surprised you didn't 
>mention the .338 Lapua.

In the Sako rifle?  Probably.  But then again, I'm trying to 
get into a different niche.  Ever try to find the .338 Lapua 
at the store? Oh, that's right, you're in Oregon...

The main reason I handload is that Maryland State Law has 
funny rules - you can't sell the latest types of ammunition 
that a manufacturer produces without "approval" (there is a 
similar thing for models of handgun - new models of handgun 
are very rarely approved for sale - it took four years for 
the Encore to appear in Maryland).

>But go first class and get one of Pete Grissel's Dakotas.  I 
>think I pick a ghost ring over express sights for 
>adventuring.  Maybe 1x LER scope mounted
>scout-like.

I can get a Dakota action in the white from Brownell's and 
put the thing together myself.  Then I could send it out to 
get blued.  I'm not yet willing to do the really dirty work 
like bluing.

Ah, now I have it.  By your charts, the .338 is a good 
compromise. Did they ever make the Valmet 412 in .338?  It's 
been discontinued, but it makes a fast two shots.

You could, when it was sold, get extra barrel combinations 
for the same receiver.  So I could get a "shorty" double-12, 
loaded with SCIMTR for shipboard use.  Get the double .338 
for outside work.  And double .460 for pesky critters.

It's too bad the Krag action isn't that strong.  I really 
like that ability to top off the magazine without opening the 
weapon.

If I was playing in your campaign, I think I would be a PH, 
and would probably have a brace of doubles as per above.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:12:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:12:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Matthew Bond" says
<snip laser power>

I think I did a laser calculation on tml-guntech
which has a 6.8kJ laser in 0.7 milliseconds (not 
microseconds) that is more than capable of penetrating 30cm 
of flesh.  The assumption was made that I would be vaporizing 
a column of water, in 0.7 milliseconds, and that the target 
spot would be 1mm x 1mm.  We came up with 1000 times the 
power required to do the minimum vaporization and it came
out to 6.8 kJ.

So, it's the same as the .338.

Wavelength is 1.3nm, using a overtone deuterium flouride 
laser.  
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
In-Reply-To: <200204120105.DWD07544@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6DDB7.14961.A6E275@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 21:05, John T. Kwon wrote:

> It's too bad the Krag action isn't that strong.  I really 
> like that ability to top off the magazine without opening the 
> weapon.

How about a weapon like the Lee-Enfields in which there was a cut-off 
over the magazine. You engaged the cut-off so that the rounds could be 
fed from the magazine and loaded shots individually when you weren't i 
a hurry. When the sh*t went everywhere you'd disengage the cut-off and 
have a full magazine available.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:46:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:46:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Written by the Victors (was: Matters of Will)
In-Reply-To: <20020412005325.F414D27A9A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020411183439.00a4cec0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 19:20:27, "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> 
wrote:

>     The Terrans had help, and lots of it.

Not to mention their microscopic buddies - "the humblest creatures which 
God, in His wisdom, placed upon the Earth."  :)

But bacteria and minor races don't edit library data, and so, a thousand 
years and change later, the popular history has it that the Brave and 
Ingenious Terrans somehow managed to hold out for centuries against the 
full might of the Empire, then miraculously sweep over it to throw down the 
hated Vilani Overlords in mere decades.  (And then promptly fumbled the 
ball themselves, but the Solomani don't like to talk about that part.)

The academics know better, of course, but who ever listens to crazy old 
scholars?  Aside from down-on-their-luck free trader crews, that is.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:59:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:59:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the
 list)
In-Reply-To: <200204120047.DWD04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411215441.02284008@192.168.0.1>

At 08:47 PM 4/11/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>"Robert A. Uhl" says
> >Probably the most work would be inputting the lists of
> >skills &c. You'll want to rewrite (not simply paraphrase)
> >the skill descriptions, as they are copyrighted.  There is a
> >process to get permission to use them, but I typically
> >prefer that my work be as free as possible of
> >encumbrances.
>I wouldn't mind the following: I write it exactly to the
>specs.  We get approval for a time-limited playtest - they
>say it's good, and they distribute it.  If they make
>anything,  I get a piece.  If it's for free, then I get my
>name on the package.

Why reinvent the wheel here?
SJG already has a very nice character creation program (ok, so may you guys 
wanna do a LINUX port).
Ok, so the nice part is MHO from playing with the demo version.
What Loren was talking about before was the program they have tailored to 
Traveller.
Plus a big bonus of some method of generating/converting characters for 
other flavors of Traveller:
CT, Mega:T, TNE, T4...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:08:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:08:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411024937.01dc7010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020412020513.B8D47279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/11/02 at 02:50 AM,  laning <laning@wizard.net> said:

>Wow, hadn't realized that 'Salon' had already visited the PBEM world.

>Thanks for the good URLs.

You're welcome. 

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:19:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:19:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <200204120218.DWG00159@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>
>What Loren was talking about before was the program they 
>have tailored to Traveller.
>Plus a big bonus of some method of generating/converting 
>characters for other flavors of Traveller:
>CT, Mega:T, TNE, T4...
>

That's what I'm talking about.  No sense in writing the GURPS 
thingie again.  But a Traveller generator.  Might be nice to 
have one that did all systems from beginning to end.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:21:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:21:37 2002
Subject: [TML] [PROPOSAL] The Fornast Project
Message-ID: <LAW2-F100BKhwWn5WNW000021c5@hotmail.com>

The Fornast Project

I was wondering whether anyone would be interested in helping to detail 
Fornast Sector in the same way & using the same procedures/guidelines as the 
Delphi Project.

As a startpoint, there are the maps & UWP's at Anthony's Maps Site 
(http://maps.grandsurvey.com). Also whatever canon information was 
published.

A quick scan of the names indicates that people of Solomani descent had a 
major hand in naming the sector, several worlds appear to have been named 
for authors, artists and locations on Terra.

If anyone is interested in joining me, please contact me directly at 
gndonald@hotmail.com, use the subject heading [FORNAST].

Graham


This is the Universe ... Big isn't it?


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:48:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:48:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space 
travel, etc.?

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:55:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:55:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411225254.019d0e50@192.168.0.1>

Is this for a PBEM or a F2F?

At 10:46 PM 4/11/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
>Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space
>travel, etc.?
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:59:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:59:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120258.DWH03019@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin asks
>
>Is this for a PBEM or a F2F?

PBEM.  The F2F will be coming in May.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:22:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:22:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <F156LszeIOVn1KL99o200017a04@hotmail.com>

Traveller optics reflect (suprise) what was available in the 1970s.  
Basically, you are getting a hunting scope.

Since then, combat optics have become light and tough enough for general 
issue, and have basically developed along two lines.  First, the "dot" type, 
like the Aimpoint Comp M or Trijicon Reflex, have no magnification but 
vastly increase the speed of target acquision versus irons.  The second 
type, like the ELCAN or Trijicon ACOG, are low magnification scopes (in the 
1.5 to 4 power range) which give greater precision at longer range and 
probably also have slightly increased speed over irons at short range.  With 
either type of optic, you shoot with both eyes open and the recticle glows.

How could these two very different types of optics be integrated into 
Traveller?  They seem to be a pretty important development, but our poor 
heroes in the 53rd century are still stuck with iron sight or the vague 
supersight on the ACR & Gauss Rifle.  I looked over the CT rules and there 
is no provision for having a "fast" weapon, when that is probably pretty 
important.  Do other versions have weapon speed?

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:34:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:34:28 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F114GuOJ75lRN8aK38o0000ff5e@hotmail.com>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:

>On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> >
> > Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle
> > you like the look of.
>
>Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
>_ugly_:-(

Call me klutz, but I am so rough on guns that I am afraid to take the woods 
out of the safe.  There is also a certain utilitarian beauty to a synthetic 
stock.  Plus, in case no one has noticed, I kind of like black rifles.  ;)

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:35:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:35:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <200204120333.DWJ00923@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>With either type of optic, you shoot with both eyes open and 
>the recticle glows.
>

When I shoot with the Leupold Mark V M3, I shoot with both 
eyes open.  It has no glowing reticle.  If you're closing 
your eyes when using a scope, you're making yourself very 
uncomfortable and reducing your peripheral vision. Makes it 
hard to use a scope on a running target.

>How could these two very different types of optics be 
>integrated into Traveller?  

The combat system *sucks*.  If you see the rules for increase 
in aim modifier by time spent aiming in PCCS, and combine 
that with maximum ballistic accuracy at each range, you get 
an extremely accurate picture of how much quicker certain 
weapons and sighting systems can be at various ranges, and 
how much benefit they provide at various ranges.  The detail 
is so well done that you can actually differentiate between 
weapons.

There is nothing like this in Traveller.  The arguments that 
you see us have about "this weapon and sight" vs. "that 
weapon and sight" actually translate into the model in PCCS.

OTOH, the character generation in PCCS *sucks*
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
In-Reply-To: <200204120105.DWD07544@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DBA6E8.397D0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 6:05 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
>> Given you predilection for sniping, I'm surprised you didn't
>> mention the .338 Lapua.
> 
> In the Sako rifle?  Probably.  But then again, I'm trying to
> get into a different niche.  Ever try to find the .338 Lapua
> at the store? Oh, that's right, you're in Oregon...

Actually, I like the Accuracy International.

> I can get a Dakota action in the white from Brownell's and
> put the thing together myself.  Then I could send it out to
> get blued.  I'm not yet willing to do the really dirty work
> like bluing.

Gonna turn your own barrel and everything?  I build rifles all the time.  I
wouldn't care to try to match the stock fitting they do at Dakota.
> 
> Ah, now I have it.  By your charts, the .338 is a good
> compromise. Did they ever make the Valmet 412 in .338?  It's
> been discontinued, but it makes a fast two shots.
>
How about a Browning BAR (the civilian one) in .338.  I see they're still
making them.  4 quick shots.  Believe it on not, I've seen a BAR rebarreled
to .458.
> 
> It's too bad the Krag action isn't that strong.  I really
> like that ability to top off the magazine without opening the
> weapon.

One locking lug
> 
> If I was playing in your campaign, I think I would be a PH,
> and would probably have a brace of doubles as per above.

I run a PH myself.  He's an NPC now.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020412135535.A10116@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> The assumption was made that I would be vaporizing 
> a column of water, in 0.7 milliseconds, and that the target 
> spot would be 1mm x 1mm.  We came up with 1000 times the 
> power required to do the minimum vaporization and it came
> out to 6.8 kJ.

That's odd, I get 500 J/m for minimum-energy vaporization of water in
such a column.  Multiplying that by 0.3 metres and a factor of 1000
gives me 150 kJ.

In general, the problem with single-pulse lasers is that the vapour
(and/or plasma) absorbs and/or scatters most of the incoming energy.
Even for a 1 mm spot size and relatively long 0.7 ms pulse, you'll
mainly get a surface crater rather than a drilled hole because most of
the energy is scattered and absorbed outside the target.

The easiest way to avoid this is to lengthen the pulses until plasma
heating isn't an issue any more, but this means that the target will
probably move too far during the "pulse".

The next easiest is to have many very short pulses that cause
miniature explosions, and enough time between pulses for most of the
products to clear (in the first few pulses near the surface) or widen
the damage channel (in later pulses).  Rather than vaporization, the
primary damage mechanism becomes kinetic energy of the products.  This
is more effective on living targets, since it takes a *lot* more
energy to vaporize tissue or bone than to tear or break it.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:11:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:11:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <F626HHGNZ4mF1IT18ol00001f93@hotmail.com>

What is PCCS?

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:11:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:11:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204121200450.15966-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Derek:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> Good scenario hook.

 Thank You

> IMTU, there are Imperial standards for data storage and media, mainly
> promulgated by the Scout Service.  This is not a standard in the sense that
> all equipment is required by law to support it, but rather a de-facto
> standard in the sense that the IISS X-boat system uses a specific set of
> formats to transfer messages.

 Funny but I would personally thing that to be the case in this reality.
But I learned from a Coast Guard friend that they  train for some work on
Max. Then have a Unix/Lynix system in the field. I know that the holywood
special effects people love the Amiga and Light Wave prg. The Amiga
version. Remembering that in 93 Speilburg <sp?> was offering full new
price for old 1200s and 400s just to have a stock pile of the Amiga
special-custom chips. I know from a Video made by an Amiga Group, that I
had to return. That Nasa uses Amiga 1200s and Amiga 4000s. Recently I
learened that the IRS doesn't keep  old Windrone machines. So the records
kept say on a Winblown 95v1 is not viewable by the IRS. Keep that in mind
for an audit. Got that from the H&R block people in town.

 Personally and this is for MTU rebirth. I see things as being very
chaotic.By that I mean for example. Take the  computer wars of the 1908s.
FWIW the computers won <BG> I sold TRS <a.k.a. TRaSh> 80s for Rasio Shack
as a local tech. OK it is a known fact that Billy hates. But he did sell
his "Basic OS" to Jack Tramiel creator of Commodore and all rights for
$7500 <I'll send the e-mail addy of the man that was there to any one that
asks, Mr. Jim Butterfield>. The TRS 80, C=64, PET, Vic-20, C-16, Plus/4,
C=128, PC II, Colt. Those save the thr TRS 80 all being 8 bit C= modles.
These all had different forms of Basic as an OS along with a built in
interpreter.

 O.K. add the different Apples, Atarai, Franklin, Osborne <sp?> and for
the U.K. members I will mention the Speccy <Spectrum: flame wars on
comp.sys.cbm about this one> Each had a different basic. To the point that
they wer pretty much incompatible with each other. I know that ther were
other models using other Basic formats and loading. I know that my
prefered PC system uses GCR formatiing. I think another one is called MFD,
but am not certain of the title.

 Now take all of those and what I missed. Add to that the IBuM system
starting from the Pc jr. to current. All the differeent versions of the
windoze NT and ## themes. I mean can you today on the X thing read a disk
from a PC jr  on original media/format?

 Then add to all of that the number of imperial worlds and Independent
worlds. We won't ask about Darrians, Sword Worldsm hiver or the Zho. <BG>

 You did bring up a point that I was alluding to, a standard for Imperial
ships. Though the used Gazelle may not have even if it is a Fiery variant
<most popular IMTU> the current system. If this system is based off the
windoze. Then it is impossible to read a 20+ old disk. Even if Imperial.
Yeah I am a Wintel Basher and proud of it. <SEG> In a game concept. What I
am wondering as an example. Say your game in CT is in in 1105. Your ship
is 1095 era. Rather new for a team I know. But the disk you uncover.
Though Imperial is from say 1075. Based on todays theorem of disposable
computers. How can the competer man on the ship read it? <A> the equipment
<B> the current skill of the compter man. Does though make a great sotry
line. Now if you add the local tech level flavour on a computer and for
the use of the citizens of the planet in question..... Oy such Tsuris!

> It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the
> Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of
> pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding
> and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of
> languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate,
> lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications
> protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of
> getting messages into and out of the system.

 Point well stated. Computer incompatibilities would make the Imperiaum
fall apart. Before the MT saga. Pardon me for using the Commodore as an
example platform in this part. It is however the only one that I know to
any degree. On the concept of  being standard for msg and images. I see a
parrel to the C= PC platform. Take this msg that I am writing. Written in
PINE 4.44 my e-mail system. Sent out in ASCII. Though my actual system
uses the PET ascii as it's default system. HTML though for a msg does bug
me and a lot of people. On my system it presents all the commands as well
as the msg. Yet I can use a prg from last year called Wave B2.9 <still
Beta> that allows me to read in 80c HTML. In fact my book mark file is
converted that way. JOs a free Beta Test DL also will read on screen HTML.

 Images: I can veiw off line GIF and JPG files. Also I can pritn them
through Post Script and even EPS <Encapsulated Post Script> Images. There
is a tool that I haven't had yet to use. That will convert PDF to PS for
my use and zip it in PK2.04g zip. A format that I can also use in packing
and unpacking. All on a 1984 PC.

 My point of the above is that there is probably that there are those that
will upgrade the hardware and software for their system. As is being done
for mine. Though admittedly along a different vector than the windrone
system.

> The net result should be similar to the modern Internet - any computer
> manufacturer who hopes to have any significant market share at all ensures
> that their equipment can read and write the standard media and formats, and
> can speak the standard protocols.  This doesn't prevent the manufacturers
> from building machines that also support proprietary encoding and
> formats.  However, if you're stuck with a data chip in one of those
> formats, your best bet is to try to find the machine that wrote it, and
> copy the data to a standard format.

 As i showed above. There would be those that would create ways to use the
systems to see the new items. Though I do have a tendency to bristle at
the term "standard". Been a victim of that erronous ideaology many times
in many situations. I do think that some sort of "chip" is needed for the
interchange of Imperial  material. Though there are probaly PRGs to
convert the material to local standards. As i have tools to convert Ascii
to PET ascii. Or the ability to log onto a BBS or even here with Ansi
colours. Making the material sutible for the local inhabitants and the
systems that they are using. The question is the reverse possible? Which
is where the  story plot originated.

 Using today as an example. Can the Windoze users here read a file that I
make? Well some of them they can. The previously mentioned gwimport.exe
file. But that is only for text, not the images. There are emulators if
the file is make in that format <.D64, .D71, .D81> But only work if the
user hs the tool to use the files. Vice 1.8 IIRC. So I would suggest that
something in the reverse that is from local to Imperial would need to have
ben created. Or t here is some sort of thing. Like you mentioned the Inet.
Where the ability to collect items of interest is found in some form of
compatible mannerism.

 Though I sincerly doubt that the Imperium would alow any sort of history
revisionist group such as micro$oft to maintian such a terrorist strangle
hold on things.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:11:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:11:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <20020410.001437.-391371.2.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204121246530.15966-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:


 Davmoh Casan?????

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411234005.01fed258@mail.qrc.com>

At 06:38 PM 4/11/2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
>That sounds pretty good. It means, however, that ships might
>have a minimum separation, which affects fleet actions.

Compared to weapon ranges or the movement scale of the Traveller ship to 
ship combat board games, a separation of 100 ship lengths is insignificant 
(required ship to ship separations are going to be on the order of 
10km-100km; ship combat scales are on the order of 
10,000km-100,000km).  It'd take a pretty large fleet for the separations to 
make the formation extend out of a single Brilliant Lances hex, for example.

>Starting one jump field within another?

I would assume that "actually inside one another" is a special case of "too 
close" presumably the separation between the drives in this case would be 
one on the order of a ship length or less - the rough equivalent of 
attempting a jump from a planetary surface.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:22:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <200204120421.DWL00090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" asks
>
>What is PCCS?

Phoenix Command Combat System.  There is no substitute.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:31:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
References: <200204120421.DWL00090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB662B4.8090706@yarranet.net.au>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> "Sam D" asks
> 
>>What is PCCS?

> 
> Phoenix Command Combat System.  There is no substitute.

Unless of course you favour a cinematic "I have a gun and I shoot them 
with it" style of play in which case CT or Fudge may be the combat 
system for you. Each to their own.

Phill
(Who has played using the PCCS related Aliens RPG system and knows it's 
not his cup of tea but understands that others love that sort of thing)
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:34:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:34:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DBB173.39814%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 7:46 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
> Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space
> travel, etc.?

What are you looking for characterwise?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:34:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DBB1B6.39815%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 7:46 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
> Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space
> travel, etc.?


BTW.  When are you going to post something on the Corridor website or add
description to the mail list?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:40:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:40:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120438.DWL01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>  
>
>What are you looking for characterwise?
>
More Intel characters, especially a computer expert.

We have shooters and ship drivers, a lawyer, and one incoming 
intel type.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:41:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:41:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120439.DWL01247@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

This weekend.  I'll update the description tonight, though.
I wrote a lot of game material this week.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:47:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:47:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
Message-ID: <OF58588BF9.5C945756-ONCA256B99.0016233C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Zane commented:
>>In fact, I was having a discussion this afternoon with a coworker about
>>whether anybody would ever have the testicular fortitude to make a 
series
>>of movies based on the Lensman or Family D'Alembert series.
>>
>I'm scared to think what a mess a studio would make out of it!

You are also forgetting that the Family D'Alembert series _IS_ Traveller!

Or as close as nevermind.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:58:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:58:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411234005.01fed258@mail.qrc.com>
References: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020411234005.01fed258@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <20020412145541.A10353@freeman.little-possums.net>

Derek Wildstar wrote:
> It'd take a pretty large fleet for the separations to make the
> formation extend out of a single Brilliant Lances hex, for example.

Only a million ships or so...


> I would assume that "actually inside one another" is a special case
> of "too close" presumably the separation between the drives in this
> case would be one on the order of a ship length or less - the rough
> equivalent of attempting a jump from a planetary surface.

Of course, one "ship length" for a dreadnaught might be 10 diameters
for a free trader...  The Tigress might be safe, but the trader has
all sorts of problems.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 23:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 11 22:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEELHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412012202.01dde140@pop.wizard.net>

Frank Pitt:
>People are discussing "open source" or free game rules and
>claiming it's going to put game designers out of work.

You overstate what I was saying.  My thesis is that if open source RPG 
design gets really successful, then it will put at least some designers out 
of work.  If.  How many are displaced depends on the success level.  It's a 
very small industry.

>This is basically crap.

Don't be shy, tell us how you really feel.  <G>


>FUDGE is sold, and it is completely freely available at the same
>time.

Most RPG players of my acquaintance ( a _lot_ of people over the last 25+ 
years) are either unaware of FUDGE's existence or don't care about 
it.  Most FUDGE owners of my acquaintance paid somebody for it.


>GURPS Lite is given away, as were the basic rules for Alternity,
>among others.

I've known a lot more GURPS owners than FUDGE owners, and not one of them 
had the free version.


>The D20 system is "open source" and there are many designers
>making money off it, (or planning to make money off it) including
>Hunter Gordon on this list.

Yes.  I am curious to see how D20 will be doing over the coming months and 
years.

Again, I rarely see the world in stark black and white.  I don't think it's 
a choice between a world that includes open source RPG design but wipes 
professional designers out of existence, or has professional designers but 
no open source designers.  But it's a small industry/marketplace and even 
modest changes might affect it in big way.

My personal preference is we charge ahead with both professional and open 
source, and meanwhile the rest of the world buys a clue and realizes how 
much fun they can be having if they join in.  It beats watching reruns on 
TV.  The market explodes, and good fortune is had by all.

--Laning
"Imagine..."  -John Lennon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 00:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204120903310.10371-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> > parts of the debate to TML chat?
> > Or else I'll begin posting socialist and communist propaganda...
> > (not a serious threat, but about as relevant)
> 
> But how can guns not be relevant to Traveller? :)

Perhaps it is just the Scandinavian socialist welfare state mindset, but I
have also trouble seeing how modern guns relates to Traveller.

I might understand this on a PCCS list, and I might even subscribe one,
did I own the game, but this seems a bit excessive.

I understood that there is a tml-gun list somewhere. Please take your
discussion there, if you need to continue. 

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 00:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] forced to unsubscribe for a bit
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412022408.01dde4e0@pop.wizard.net>

My ISP is doing bad things with my mail server.  I seem to be able to send 
but not receive.  I haven't seen any new TML traffic for the last 24 hours 
or so.  To prevent the incoming-email equivalent of Three Mile Island, I am 
turning off my TML subscription for awhile.  I apologize to anyone who I 
was also on a thread that I was participating in.  Or maybe you're just as 
glad.  :->>

Back in a day or so.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 00:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <DAV32eCyWu1MRRNOqcC0001c03c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIECKEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

> > Star Wars Name =
> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
> > name
> >
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town
> > where you were born.

Antfa Rilon (eek) or
Tonfa Rilon (a bit better)

Antony (call me Tony) Farrell


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 01:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Fri Apr 12 00:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Unpublished Material Question
Message-ID: <LAW2-F94snwO5UGXtTG000025a5@hotmail.com>

I was wondering if anyone has a list of all the Traveller(MT, TNE) material 
that GDW advertised, but did not release, also if anyone has any info as to 
how far along the material was before it was canned?

It would make for interesting reading.

Graham

This is the Universe ... Big isn't it?


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 01:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 00:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <memo.472174@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B8DBB173.39814%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
May I pass this around to other potentially interested parties, or do you 
want to keep it on the TML?

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 04:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Fri Apr 12 03:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] BITS website updated - Includes Travellercon.....
Message-ID: <B9A03CCD-4DFC-11D6-9B38-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support
http://www.bits.org.uk/

The BITS website has been updated to include details of this weekend's 
Traveller Con at Hebden Bridge, and the forthcoming Dudley Bug Ball, 
Fantasy Fair in Peterborough, Strange Days, GenCon UK and Dragonmeet 2002.
  Loads of crunchy goodness.

Have a look at the Traveller events that are on in the UK!!

Dom
BITS webmaster
webmaster@bits.org.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 05:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 04:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204121124.DWZ00277@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mexal, 
Yes you may pass it around.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 05:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 12 04:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RealLife(tm) Battledress, next chapter
References: <20020412005325.F414D27A9A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6CA44.BBDCD63E@earthlink.net>

Leonard Erickson posted:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > This is kinda fun...
> >
> > http://www.aro.army.mil/soldiernano/
> >
> >
> > David
>
> Gee, you sent this on March 3, 1987. Slow X-boat?

Must be those posts on inertial suppression. <grin>


Actually it was a messed-up loaner laptop from work.


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 06:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 05:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204120903310.10371-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>

On 12 Apr 2002 at 9:06, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> Perhaps it is just the Scandinavian socialist welfare state mindset, but I
> have also trouble seeing how modern guns relates to Traveller.

Well if you cast your eye over the list of guns in CT's Book 1 and 
their descriptions you'll note that aside from the laser rifle they're 
all weapons you could find in a gun store or on a battlefield in 1970.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:05:08 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
References: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost> <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Well if you cast your eye over the list of guns in CT's Book 1 and 
> their descriptions you'll note that aside from the laser rifle they're 
> all weapons you could find in a gun store or on a battlefield in 1970.

... which means that we already have all the information we need on those
guns in our game.

Please...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
 <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>
 <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412091256.01fc0e98@192.168.0.1>

At 03:06 PM 4/12/2002 +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > Well if you cast your eye over the list of guns in CT's Book 1 and
> > their descriptions you'll note that aside from the laser rifle they're
> > all weapons you could find in a gun store or on a battlefield in 1970.
>... which means that we already have all the information we need on those
>guns in our game.

Nah...it means it needs a big old gearhead update...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty 
clearly to protect political discourse.
But liberals reject the notion that free speech is therefore limited to 
political topics, even broadly defined.
True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself. But why leap 
to the conclusion that a broadly
worded constitutional freedom ("the right of the people to keep and bear 
arms") is narrowly limited by its
stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away? My New Republic 
colleague Mickey Kaus says that if
liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest 
of the Bill of Rights, there would be
law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory." -- Michael Kinsley 
Washington Post, January 8, 1990
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <OFC6A9CE02.C6420851-ON85256B99.004870A4@pheaa.org>





Mark Urbin asks
>
>Is this for a PBEM or a F2F?

>PBEM.  The F2F will be coming in May.

What is F2F?

also will the gm give us pregened chars?

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:45:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:45:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F195GoE1k8LN6FWe7Xl0000b978@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB78DC2.16250.66B1EA2@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002, at 0:35, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      The Ziru Sirka, while stagnant, is ahead of the Terrans in the tech 
> race.  Sure the Terrans can catch up, if they're given the time.  I just 
> can't quite understand why they were given the time.

The reasons are simple but conviluted.

1) In the ZS, the way to advance one's career was through the 
successful management of "prestige" sector (ie one that had "the 
eye" of the central government). For much of its history (at least 
until the 8th IW), the Solomani Rim was one of the backwaters and 
as such it was governed by a long succession of chair warmers,  
the disgraced and the occassional outright incompetant. Any 
administrator with drive and talent who ended up in the Rim spent 
most of their efforts getting out as quickly as possible

2) Initially the ZS didn't realise that there even was a war on. To the 
Vilani the 1st IW was simply a series of punitive raids against a 
nest of pirates (an analysis of the Terran's not too far from the truth 
at the time). If you think along the lines of British punitive raids 
against the tribes of the NW frontier (ie a very minor effort). This 
was indeed fortunate for the Terrans as even this minor effort nearly 
crushed them in the 1st War.

3) The ZS assumed that the Terran's technological growth would 
follow their own glacial pattern. They simply had no comprehension 
that the Terrans could match their techonology in just 33 years. 
The very concepts of "reverse engineering" and "synergetic 
exploitation" were totally alien to the Vilani (they simply could 
never understand that the Terrans would just copy their techology 
and then combine different elements in ways they have never even 
considered)

4) Likewise they measured their potential to expand in the terms of 
their own expansion. They did not forsee the Terran population 
explosion that was inevitable. Also, they could not know that the 
Terran's advanced biological sciences enabled them to support far 
greater population loads and exploit worlds that the Vilani had 
writen off as totally uninhabitable.
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:46:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:46:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F70SDx1kLwxTQTYkWSz00001108@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB78DC2.21937.66B1EA2@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002, at 15:31, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Yeah, I've got to think this over even more.  To my mind, minor race 
> rebellions aided and abetted by Terran infiltrators should be a big part of 
> the Interstellar Wars.  There would have been uprisings and sabotage a 
> sector or so "behind" the fighting front and the minor race allies providing 
> the lower-TL cannon fodder for the Alliance's offensives.

No, not really, at least not until right at the end (the Nth War). 
From the 1st to 8th War, the Terrans were simply facing the forces 
of a single ZS sector. If the ZS central fleet had been brought to 
bear at any stage in this period the Terrans would have been 
defeated (eventually, it wouldn't have been a cake walk though). 
But in the 9th War they faced the central fleet and anihilated it. 
This is the key factor in the collapse of the ZS.

Picture this, for thousands of years the ZS had stood as an 
immovable colossus, fixed and totally unchanging. It had the 
overwhelming faith of the vast majority of its citizens, sure things 
were not quite what they had once been and something was 
"wrong", but nobody could quite put their finger on it.

Sure their were some disaffected minor races and occassionally 
they did rebel, but they were always put in their place and if worst 
came to worst, there was still the Central Fleet. The Central Fleet 
was the very embodiment of the power and prestige of the ZS. 
Undefeated for thousands of year and with unquestioned power. As 
long as it existed any rebellion was doomed and the power of the 
ZS was undoubted.

In fact the empire was by this time a tettering house of cards. The 
total lack of change had lead to a slow build up of social tensions 
that were just waiting to break. All that was required was a crisis to 
spark the collapse. As long as nobody doubted the Empire it 
survived, but the moment serious doubt entered the equation, it just 
unravelled under the weight of thousands of years of social inertia.

And the spark was the Terran victory in the 9th War. Suddenly the 
most visible and tangible symbol of Vilani power was not just 
defeated by anihilated. The loyal citizens of the ZS went into a sort 
of state of shock and the oppressed minor races saw that the ZS 
could be defeated. This gives a sort of sudden explosion of the built 
up tensions. Sure the Empire still has the exact same resources 
as it had the day before the destruction of the Central Fleet, the 
infrastructure exists to build new ones and lots of other ships are 
still available. But the Empire has lost the faith of its people and it 
is doomed.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204121406.DXD05867@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"William Lane" asks
>What is F2F?

Face to Face
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Doug C.)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020412140824.40827.qmail@web13402.mail.yahoo.com>

I would be interested.  Could you end me ome more
info?
Doug
<<dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>>

--- "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
> Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance
> space 
> travel, etc.

______________________________________________________________________ 
Music, Movies, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:13:22 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

What do our lovely Ex Mil Travs think of this recent development?

Mikey

PS You just know that someone is going end up eating the moisture sachet at
one point. 

PPS Can someone please translate what 'acceptable' actually means in the
context of below. 

------------
April 12 2002

Military scientists in the United States have developed a new battlefield
weapon: the indestructible sandwich.

It can survive air drops and rough handling to stay fresh for up to three
years, even in tropical conditions.

Eventually, it is expected to follow freeze-dried coffee, dehydrated egg and
processed cheese from the battlefield on to supermarket shelves.

So far, only pepperoni and barbecued chicken varieties have been developed.
Soldiers who have tasted them say they are "acceptable".

Scientists are now working on indestructible pocket pizzas, cream-filled
bagels and peanut butter sandwiches.

The sandwiches are designed to stay fresh for up to three years at 26C, the
temperature of a warm summer's day, or six months at 38C. They are the
result of a long search by the US Army for rations that can be eaten on the
move.

The breakthrough was finding how to stop the filling from making the bread
soggy.

Scientists at the Soldier Systems Centre in Natick, Massachusetts, added
substances called humectants to pepperoni and chicken fillings.

Humectants not only prevent water from soaking into the bread but also limit
the amount of moisture available for bacterial growth, New Scientist
reports.

The sandwiches are then sealed in laminated plastic pouches that contain
sachets of chemicals to prevent the growth of yeast, mould and bacteria.

The standard American battlefield rations, called MRE, or Meal Ready to Eat,
already contain ingredients for making sandwiches. But they have to be
pasteurised and stored in separate pouches to prevent sogginess.

The Telegraph, London
-------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>; from jenry023@student.liu.se on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200
References: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost> <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost> <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020412081916.A31020@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> 
> Please...

Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their sex
lives.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.    --John Ciardi

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:24:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:24:10 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip three year old sandwich>

ObTrav:  Ever wondered what was in those Rations?  It's just 
a logistical footnote in most RPGs.  Yeah, I have 5 days of 
food.  But how hungry are you?  How well are they packaged?  
How long can people really subsist on them?  How much did you 
pay for them (characters will always go cheap on the rations -
- there's no incentive not to).

We should have three grades of rations, that come "ready to 
eat"

Grade C  Civilian, cheap.  5cr per meal.  Not guaranteed to 
stay together if you sit on the packages.  Gosh, were those 
scrambled eggs?  You won't be eating these after a few days, 
unless you're starving.

Grade B  Civilian, expensive or Military Surplus.  8 cr per 
meal.  OK to eat if you don't smell it or look at it.  Some 
of the meals, by chance, will be good.  Worth arguing over 
who gets them.  Or you can buy meals blind, open them up, and 
throw out the ones you don't like.  Morale will suffer if you 
have to eat these for more than a week.

Grade A Military current, Civilian Expedition Quality.  12 cr 
per meal.  Even comes with a warmer, wow.  You will be able 
to eat these for a few months, but you will recognize the 
same entrees again and again.


________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:56:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:56:33 2002
Subject: [TML] forced to unsubscribe for a bit
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412022408.01dde4e0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8DC437B.3989C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 11:26 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> My ISP is doing bad things with my mail server.  I seem to be able to send
> but not receive.  I haven't seen any new TML traffic for the last 24 hours
> or so.  To prevent the incoming-email equivalent of Three Mile Island, I am
> turning off my TML subscription for awhile.  I apologize to anyone who I
> was also on a thread that I was participating in.  Or maybe you're just as
> glad.  :->>
> 
> Back in a day or so.

I can always set you up with local email on my server.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
In-Reply-To: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:23:34AM -0400
References: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020412090107.A31185@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:23:34AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> We should have three grades of rations, that come "ready to 
> eat"

Shouldn't the grades go in reverse order, e.g. Military, cheap;
Civilian, cheap and finally Civilian, expensive?  IME civilian rations
tend to be _much_ tastier than MREs.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:02:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:02:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel
Message-ID: <004201c1e232$ea7b0ee0$519793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C1E23B.3984D900
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 1st. A sample will be =
appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while.=20



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C1E23B.3984D900
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is =
December 1st.=20
A sample will be appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C1E23B.3984D900--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <200204121508.DXF06733@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>Shouldn't the grades go in reverse order, e.g. Military, 
>cheap;

I've had civilian cheap - too nasty for words.  Don't ever 
make me eat those eggs again, or whatever that greenish 
yellow lumpy slime was.

I think I had three grades of civilian in there, so let's 
rearrange the list

Grade C   Civilian cheap/Ancient Military Surplus
Grade B2  Military Surplus
Grade B1  Civilian average
Grade A2  Current Military
Grade A1  Civilian Expedition Grade

The military food packs, and the Grade A1 come in durable 
packaging, and are shelf stable in extreme environments.
The military takes less preparation.
Grade A1 and A2 include heaters, condiments, etc.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3636@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E234.E92A6110
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

COOL!!  Can't wait to see it :)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: MJ Dougherty [mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:01 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel


 
Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 1st. A sample will be appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. 
 
 
 
Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses


------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E234.E92A6110
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">


<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=433291515-12042002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>COOL!!&nbsp; Can't wait to see it :)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=433291515-12042002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Jesse</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> MJ Dougherty 
  [mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 12, 2002 8:01 
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> tml@travellercentral.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TML] Traveller 
  novel<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 
  1st. A sample will be appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. 
  </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, Quiklink 
  Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E234.E92A6110--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018630776.524.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> "Matthew Bond" says
> <snip laser power>
> 
> I think I did a laser calculation on tml-guntech
> which has a 6.8kJ laser in 0.7 milliseconds (not 
> microseconds) that is more than capable of penetrating 30cm 
> of flesh.  The assumption was made that I would be vaporizing 
> a column of water, in 0.7 milliseconds, and that the target 
> spot would be 1mm x 1mm.  We came up with 1000 times the 
> power required to do the minimum vaporization and it came
> out to 6.8 kJ.

Hm...of course, against a target moving at more than 1m/s relative to your aim
point, you're going to have noticeable wandering during the beam period, making
the laser relatively inefficient at snapshots and the like.  In addition,
energy requirement to boil body temperature water is roughly 2.5 kJ/gram and
you're hitting 0.24 grams of material, for a vaporization energy of about 600
joules.

(Tim: I think you gave vaporization energy in calories, not joules).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412081916.A31020@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020412171320.46876.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start
> mentioning their sex
> lives.

Yeah, but there are rarely more than 10-15 off-topic
total posts on one of those threads before someone
(usually politely) asks them to either drop it or move
off the tml.  The gun topics have gone on for much
longer than 10-15 posts and lost topic either Monday
or Tuesday.  Suggestions:

1.  Move the discussion to private e-mail
2.  Move the discussion to tml-guntech
3.  Move the discussion to tml-chat
4.  Move the discussion to a gearhead list
5.  Bring it back to topic by relating to existing
combat rules or by designing new combat rules.
6.  Drop it altogether.

But please, don't keep it here without retaining game
relevance.  Discussions about which gun you prefer is
fine, but it is not on topic.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204121730.DXL01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>
>Hm...of course, against a target moving at more than 1m/s 
>relative to your aim point, you're going to have noticeable 
>wandering during the beam period, making
>the laser relatively inefficient at snapshots and the like.  
>In addition,
>energy requirement to boil body temperature water is roughly 
>2.5 kJ/gram and
>you're hitting 0.24 grams of material, for a vaporization 
>energy of about 600
>joules.
>

The calculation is over on tml-guntech. It is based on 
calculations done by the Air Force to determine required 
fluence levels to damage or vaporize a target. In their case, 
they were targeting mild steel.  I am targeting water. I 
first calculated the amount of material to be vaporized. I 
then assumed that it would take 1000 times that amount of 
energy, because of movement, armor, etc.  You may notice, 
however, that the reflectivity of mild unpolished steel is 
around 90% for a 1.3 nm wavelength beam.  The human body, 
OTOH, is around 10%.  So if you're not armored, my 1000 
factor is very, very conservative.  Even if we don't have an 
accurate model of penetration, I am fairly confident that 
raising the required energy by a factor of 1000 should get us 
some results other than a surface explosion.

Since we're using an overtone DF laser at 1.3nm, the 
atmosphere (according to published data) is not going to 
absorb any relevant percentage of the beam.

I also picked a very small spot size 1 mm x 1 mm.  If we make 
the spot size larger, say 1 cm x 1 cm, the power requirements 
really rise.

I have seen a continuous beam of similar spot size operating 
at a much lower power level.  It slices through 2 meters of 
layered fabric, cutting cloth for dresses.  The effect is 
nearly instantaneous.  Much faster than a saw or knife blade 
would ever be on a stack like that.  I was warned that if a 
human was ever inside the unit when it was operating, they 
would be cut instantly into the pattern.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <E16w5Hj-00044A-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

=20
> Face to Face

Where at?

Beth



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204121730.DXL01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018634628.8505.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> The calculation is over on tml-guntech.

Aha.  I found your error.  To quote:

>We want a wound channel approximately 1 mm x 1 mm, completely through the
theoretical 30 cm thick body that Tod uses for his calculations.

>The spot size will be 1mm x 1mm.

>This is 0.003 cc of water.

0.1 cm x 0.1cm x 30 cm = 0.3 cc.  You have a factor of 100 error.  Note that
your total energy requirement may still be credible, since you used a factor of
1,000 inefficiency.  I've seen pulsed laser calculations that would allow
blowthrough on as little as one kilojoule.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:10:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:10:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204121809.DXL07040@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Beth" asks
>> Face to Face
>
>Where at?
>
germantown, maryland
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204121814.DXL07610@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony says Aha
<snip>

ObTrav: I like a laser rifle from the aesthetic, CT 
perspective.  I have this view of "the spacers", people who 
come from the stars to have adventures on some remote 
planet.  And it isn't "practical" or "realistic".  I almost 
think that the whole plasma weapon thing is unnecessary.

Still, I like those ray guns in "Mars Attacks".  Give me one 
of those, thank you. Cool sound, fantastic effect.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:49:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:49:09 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <3CB72B6D.1443A6E7@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] The "gun" debate
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>> 
>> Please...
>
> Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> sex lives.

Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
subscribe via the digest. 

Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT 
political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to 
keep the list Traveller focused.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB72B6D.1443A6E7@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412150348.00b8d080@urbin.net>

At 01:46 PM 4/12/02 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> > From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> >> Please...
> > Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> > sex lives.
>Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
>subscribe via the digest.
>Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
>mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT
>political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to
>keep the list Traveller focused.

Hmmm...I haven't noticed the thread discussing the politics of ownership,
just the mechanics of the firearms and the wounds analysis.

It is starting to drift to the guntech list though.

Actually a good on topic thread on snub pistols has been going on there too.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Unpublished Material Question
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F94snwO5UGXtTG000025a5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEFPDKAA.tml@downport.com>

There wasn't much Traveller bottled up in GDW, and there do not seem to have
been a lot of things that were started and then dropped when they were close
to publication. I'm sure there were any number of ideas that were scrapped
because they were good enough :)

On the other hand, several of the licensees did die with good stuff in the
pipeline. Gamelords, Ltd. had several good items. one was Grand Survey,
which they sold to DGP. A couple of others were published recently by
Cargonaut Press. Paranoia Press had one or two items in the pipeline. DGP
had several when they went under, and at least one item, Lords of Thunder,
was put out as an article instead of a book.

For my money, some of the best stuff that has never seen wide circulation is
in some of the old fanzines; Between Worlds, Imperium Staple, Working
Passage, Parasec, Alien Star, Third Imperium, and many more. I'd like to see
some of those published on the web as Security Leak has been. The fanzines
were the WWW of their day. If anyone knows how to get in touch with
publishers of these old fanzines, let me know and I will work on web
publication.
_____________________________________

       http://www.downport.com
       The Traveller Web Portal
       webmaster@downport.com

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Graham Donald

I was wondering if anyone has a list of all the Traveller(MT, TNE) material
that GDW advertised, but did not release, also if anyone has any info as to
how far along the material was before it was canned?

It would make for interesting reading.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel
In-Reply-To: <004201c1e232$ea7b0ee0$519793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <004201c1e232$ea7b0ee0$519793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <200204121530190649.99C963A7@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 4/12/2002 at 4:00 PM MJ Dougherty wrote:

>Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 1st. A sample will be=
 appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. 
>

The Diaspora Phoenix sample has been posted and is available at:

http://www.TravellerRPG.com/TNE/DiasporaPhoenix.html

Hunter



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:57:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:57:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com>

>"Beth" asks
> >> Face to Face
> >
> >Where at?
> >
>germantown, maryland

This *is* the germantown near DC and not the one on the Eastern Shore, 
right?



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204122000.DXP05028@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Yes, Germantown, Maryland, that armpit of suburbia.  One of 
the largest concentrations of people in Maryland.

Home of the Department of Energy, etc.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:01:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:01:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Ack so close and yet so far.
ken
VA beach

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew MacLintock" <a_maclintock@hotmail.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Send more humans


> >"Beth" asks
> > >> Face to Face
> > >
> > >Where at?
> > >
> >germantown, maryland
> 
> This *is* the germantown near DC and not the one on the Eastern Shore, 
> right?
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Mac
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
> http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204121814.DXL07610@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018641727.2102.ajackson@ping>

Incidentally, where does the idea of 1.3nm X-rays penetrating atmosphere come
from?  I can't find any immediate references, and was under the general
impression that beyond some windows in the near UV the atmosphere basically
absorbs everything.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204122010.DXP06343@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>
>Incidentally, where does the idea of 1.3nm X-rays 
>penetrating atmosphere come from?  I can't find any 
>immediate references, and was under the general
>impression that beyond some windows in the near UV the 
>atmosphere basically absorbs everything.
>_______________________________________________

My mistake - it's 1.3 microns.  The document is Laser Options 
For National Missile Defense, an Air Force document.  
Apparently, 1.3 microns will allow a space based laser to 
target ground targets - there are more uses for the SBL than 
just shooting missiles.  It will be an effective anti-
aircraft weapon, and other documents indicate it will be 
useful at targeting individuals.

With the fluence they plan on using, and the beam time (4 
seconds), it looks like they could literally smoke you down 
to the bones with something like that.

They also indicate in related documents that the same mirror 
that would be used to strike ground targets would be able to 
spot and aim.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <20020412.131217.-193605.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:08:54 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> Grade C   Civilian cheap/Ancient Military Surplus
> Grade B2  Military Surplus
> Grade B1  Civilian average
> Grade A2  Current Military
> Grade A1  Civilian Expedition Grade

Ah the lucky service men/women of today are blessed with grade A food,
HA!

Back in 1972 - 1975 all I ever saw, ate, and enjoyed, HA, were C Rations
packed in 1953!!!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The great gun discussion
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020412135143.009f0220@mail.attbi.com>

	Ok.  I have collected firearms all my life, hunted all my life, reloaded 
ammo all my life.  Firearms are one of main hobbies, and so is 
Traveller.  The intersection of the two is interesting and appropriate, 
accassionally.  But, seriously, guys, {and you know who you are) not 
everone is interested in our firearms hobby, or is even allowed to have a 
firearms hobby.  Or allowed to or want to hunt.  I would love to sit down 
and bullshit for hours about guns, hunting, etc, but let's stop inflicting 
this subject on innocent bystanders.
	I hope I haven't offended anyone, because I really like everyone on this 
list, but if I have please feel free to flame me at d.gyles@attbi.net.
	Ok, back to lurking, now.
	P.S. You hunt with guns!! What wimps!! Real men use a bow!!!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
In-Reply-To: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB7E982.25362.4543EE@localhost>

On 12 Apr 2002 at 10:23, John T. Kwon wrote:

> <snip three year old sandwich>
> 
> ObTrav:  Ever wondered what was in those Rations?  It's just 
> a logistical footnote in most RPGs.  Yeah, I have 5 days of 
> food.  But how hungry are you?  How well are they packaged?  
> How long can people really subsist on them?  How much did you 
> pay for them (characters will always go cheap on the rations -
> - there's no incentive not to).

Not in my games they don't. Or not often, and very seldom after the 
ones that do have been given descriptions of what it's like to eat 
jellied eels, pickled goose eggs and candied locusts (and I mean the 
insects, not the fruit). My preference is to time this so that the 
players are eating when the description of their character's meal is 
given. Thyis doesn't work on some people, as they've eaten this sort of 
thing or 'worse', but they're seldom the ones being cheap, strangely 
enough.
 
> Grade B  Civilian, expensive or Military Surplus.  8 cr per 
> meal.  OK to eat if you don't smell it or look at it.  Some 
> of the meals, by chance, will be good.  Worth arguing over 
> who gets them.  Or you can buy meals blind, open them up, and 
> throw out the ones you don't like.  Morale will suffer if you 
> have to eat these for more than a week.

Sounds like a fussy eater to me. This looks like a fairly good 
description of our rations and I can't say that there was ever a 
significant drop in morale over a 2 week exercise period. OTOH the 
boost in morale after even only a couple of days if a fresh hot meal is 
shipped/trucked/flown in is amazing.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412081916.A31020@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204122324460.17035-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> > Please...
> 
> Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their sex
> lives.

Well, yes, but this still is _Traveller_ mailing list. Sex lives also a
no-no, please. 

The point of the list kind of gets lost, if I have to delete 80% of the
posts as off-topic. B-/

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a
 starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411151634.0209ac08@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:52 PM 4/10/2002, Texas Redshift wrote:
>Starship Insurance - Theft and Casualty - Claims

Good post.  A couple of points to think about: one of them being the 
general piracy scenario (but that's not one I want to go into now).  The 
other being the definition of when the ship becomes salvage (versus the 
recovery of stolen property).  Hopefully someone with better knowledge of 
maritime law can chime in here, but the rule of thumb that I've used IMTU 
goes as follows:

If the ship was stolen, and later recovered in any sort of operable 
condition, it's stolen property and not salvage, and legally belongs to 
whomever is the owner.  If someone assists in recovering the ship for the 
owners, there is generally some type of reward involved; most larger ship 
owners and insurers make sure that their reward policies are well-known, 
since this helps in recovering stolen ships.

A stolen ship should become salvage only after a reasonably long period of 
time (given the lifetimes of Traveller starships).  A stolen ship may also 
become eligible for salvage if the owner formally files papers to abandon 
the ship.  Companies (particularly insurers) may do this if it has tax 
advantages.  An insurance company with a large portfolio of stolen ships 
may choose to take the write-off and tax benefit of abandonment rather than 
hold the ships until they become salvage automatically.

The company would have to make a decision about the chance of recovering 
the ship (and it's expected value if recovered) versus the value of the tax 
shelter in writing the ship off.  This could be a useful adventure hook; 
freelance salvage companies probably scan the list of abandoned ships as 
they are published, because those ships are now "fair game" and any 
proceeds no longer have to be shared with the insurance company.  The list 
is probably just that - but a salvage company with good research 
connections may occasionally be able to recover such a ship where the owner 
could or would not.

If the ship was abandoned due to any sort of disaster or accident which 
made it inoperable, uninhabitable and/or a hazard to navigation, then it 
becomes salvage.  If it is ever recovered (for parts or to be repaired and 
returned to service) it would become (after a bit if paperwork) the legal 
property of whomever salvaged it.

This leads to some interesting adventure hooks: if at all possible without 
undue hazard to life, an agent of the ship owner (generally the 
owner-aboard, captain, or crew) or the insurer (generally an agent or 
freelancer hired for the purpose) must remain aboard a damaged ship so that 
it does not become salvage.  This could involve the PCs in many ways - for 
example, a ship owner or insurance company could hire them to spend some 
time aboard a damaged and otherwise abandoned ship.  They'd start out in 
vacc suits, and probably would want to seal and re-pressurize some 
compartment so they would have a place to un-suit during their stay.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:04:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:04:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204122010.DXP06343@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018645406.4851.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> My mistake - it's 1.3 microns.

Ok, that's more familiar, that's actually near IR.

Oh, if you want a really insane tech option (which real people are vaguely
considering), Hf-178m2 lasers make a neat gamma ray laser option which people
are really studying.  Some benefits:

2.6 MeV photons don't have remotely interesting diffraction problems at normal
combat ranges.  a 1mm lens, for a 1mm beam, retains basically full focal
ability out to 100 km.

Gamma rays, due to high penetration (90% reduction in about an inch of steel)
can efficiently deposit energy well below the normal surface layers, thus
significantly improving the ability to fire through both atmosphere and armor. 
A 10 kilojoule beam should be plenty to kill through quite a bit of armor.

Hf-178m2 stores a lot of energy -- on the order of a gigajoule per gram -- thus
solving a lot of the energy storage problems.  It would need some power input
to trigger lasing, but probably considerably less than the output.

Based on how x-ray lenses are designed (low incidence angle deflection), a
gamma ray lens would probably be a thin metal-walled tube, thus actually
resembling a gun, rather than resembling a flashlight.

Disadvantages: Hf-178m2 is radioactive, half-life 31 years.  Assuming you need
a stored energy of 10 megajoules, carrying an unshielded power source next to
your skin for a month would expose you to a mean radiation dose of about 10,000
rads.  Using real materials, I'd want to wrap it in around 2 cm of iridium,
which would add more than a kilogram to the weight of the weapon.  With
Traveller materials, just wrap it in bonded superdense (in fact, the barrel is
probably bonded SD as well); assuming bonded SD is 14x as good radiation
shielding as steel, half a centimeter is enough shielding.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204122116.DXS00114@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
<snip radioactive death>

ObTrav:  I was wondering how many rads someone has to take to 
be a "prompt" casualty (and probably a fatality, pretty 
soon).  Yes, there are some fairly generic rules (see Gurps: 
Space or Ultra-Tech I'm not sure).  I'd be interested in some 
house rules, because radioactivity has got to occur around 
fusion powerplants, in space, etc.  It's a Traveller kind of 
thing.

I keep hearing around 20,000 rads, but I've also heard that 
someone cooked like that can linger for a day or so.  There 
were some accidents with the Therac-25 machine where people 
were accidentally given the maximum output of the machine 
because of software errors.  Some of the doses were in that 
range.

Also, it's not clear how they calculate dosage.  In the 
accident for the Therac, they describe radiation through a 
very small cross-section of the body, but also describe a 
calculated "whole-body" dose.

If shielding worked that well per your gadget, then it would 
be possible to build a small short range weapon that 
consisted of shielding, a source that could produce a 20,000 
rad/sec emission, and a shutter.

I don't think that there's a handwave for "my body is dead 
and I don't know it yet".
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204122116.DXS00114@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018646710.9067.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> Anthony Jackson says
> <snip radioactive death>
> 
> ObTrav:  I was wondering how many rads someone has to take to 
> be a "prompt" casualty (and probably a fatality, pretty 
> soon).  Yes, there are some fairly generic rules (see Gurps: 
> Space or Ultra-Tech I'm not sure).  I'd be interested in some 
> house rules, because radioactivity has got to occur around 
> fusion powerplants, in space, etc.  It's a Traveller kind of 
> thing.

Well, in the case of the weapon described, it wouldn't be a radiation kill,
it's just going to vaporize all the material in a 1mm channel through the body,
producing rather bullet-like effects.

The effects of high doses of radiation on humans are not well studied due to a
lack of examples, but 20,000 rads is reasonable for immediate incapacitation.

> If shielding worked that well per your gadget, then it would 
> be possible to build a small short range weapon that 
> consisted of shielding, a source that could produce a 20,000 
> rad/sec emission, and a shutter.

Well, radiation sprayers are the type of weapon that tends to get banned by
international convention, but as a short range weapon (100 meters or less)
radiation weapons are rather simple.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <200204122133.DXT01374@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson talks about radioactivity
<snip>

I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone 
can help out and pony up their house rules).

Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-
T) powerplant's energy output will be in the form of 
neutrons.  

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
References: <ML-2.3.1018646710.9067.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CB75306.59A09CC@premier.net>


Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> John T. Kwon writes:
> > Anthony Jackson says
> > <snip radioactive death>
> >
> > ObTrav:  I was wondering how many rads someone has to take to
> > be a "prompt" casualty (and probably a fatality, pretty
> > soon).  Yes, there are some fairly generic rules (see Gurps:
> > Space or Ultra-Tech I'm not sure).  I'd be interested in some
> > house rules, because radioactivity has got to occur around
> > fusion powerplants, in space, etc.  It's a Traveller kind of
> > thing.
> 
> Well, in the case of the weapon described, it wouldn't be a radiation kill,
> it's just going to vaporize all the material in a 1mm channel through the body,
> producing rather bullet-like effects.
> 
> The effects of high doses of radiation on humans are not well studied due to a
> lack of examples, but 20,000 rads is reasonable for immediate incapacitation.

According to FM 25-51, Battalion Task Force Nuclear Training, a dose of
8,000-18,000 rad is projected to cause the hapless victim to "become
completely and permanently incapacitated for performing physical tasks
within 5 minutes."  For doses over 18,000 rad, replace the word
"physical" with "any." 

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <200204122133.DXT01374@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018648147.2754.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone 
> can help out and pony up their house rules).
> 
> Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-
> T) powerplant's energy output will be in the form of 
> neutrons.  

Which is an excellent reason to avoid using D-T reactors, if anything else can
be made to work.  D-He3 can be optimized to only a few percent neutrons (caused
by incidental D-D reactions in the fuel).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 16:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 12 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fort Knox-Radcliff - Looking for Players
Message-ID: <184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a@aol.com>

--part1_184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I'm a long time traveller fan that has settled in the Radcliff/Fort Knox 
area. Looking for any fellow Traveller Players. I am experienced with 
Classic, MegaTraveller, T4, and GURPS versions of our favorite game. Contact 
me if your in the Fort Knox area. 

--part1_184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>I'm a long time traveller fan that has settled in the Radcliff/Fort Knox area. Looking for any fellow Traveller Players. I am experienced with Classic, MegaTraveller, T4, and GURPS versions of our favorite game. Contact me if your in the Fort Knox area. </FONT></HTML>

--part1_184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] eine Frage fur die deutschsprechenden Leute des TMLs
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

I need help translating a little bit of military radio talk from English or
German.  If you would like to help, please email me off list.

Vielen Dank,

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEHACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>

[Excellent comparison of 1600-1900 China and ca. 2400 Ziru Sirka deleted.]

>
>     That's part of my take on the whole problem.  The Terran Confederation
>victory over the Ziru Sirka is more along the lines of Cortez versus the
>Aztecs; i.e lots of native allies, and most decidely not a case of "Terra
>Uber Alles."

Mr. Whipsnade*:

You and Mr. Laning and I are in general agreement on this point.  Solomani,
whether Imperial or Confederate, suppress the truth of Vegan, Geonee,
Azhanti, what-have-you revolts that finally toppled the Ziru Sirka.

--Glenn

*An easy typographical error to make is Whipsnake, which is something else
again, I suppose.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8dd1a45b944@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:02 PM +1200 4/11/02, Frank Pitt wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote :
>
>>  But we are talking about security measure that are
>>  intrusive enough that the are a hassle to the day
>>  to day operation of a ship.
>
>Yes.
>
>Just as being searched for screwdrivers and penknives is
>currently a hassle in the day to day operation of an airline.
>
>>  Some people are going to know about them.
>
>Everyone will be _told_ about them. They won't be secret.

And if you can make that kind of link (we are preventing something 
that has been used to cause great loss of life), then you have a 
justification for the security measures.  But invoking intrusive 
insurance companies alone won't do it.

>
>>  Unless they are important  enough to make a _significant_
>change in costs,
>>  another company will be able to draw at least some customers
>away buy not
>>  having such intrusive requirements.
>
>The requirements are set by the SPA and the local civilian
>government, not the insurance company, as I already said :

It doesn't matter who is setting the requirements.  One still has to 
show they are justified economically.  (Though, in fact, the Imperium 
is very hands off and I _don't_ see the requirement comming here.  I 
_would_ be the insurance company, if it was justified).

>
>>  >The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
>>  >required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
>>  >may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
>>  >starport will do it (for important safety and
>>  >financial reasons,would you want an unwarranted vehicle
>>  >approaching an extremely expensve space station?), there won't
>>  >be any real choice except for the captains to take the risk
>>  >of not doing it and not go to the better starports
>>
>>  The presumption is that every insurance company will have such
>>  requirements.
>
>No, the presumption is that no insurance company will accept
>liability for an illegal ship.
>
>Because of that, if the ship owners wish to be able to recover
>the cost of their starship in the event of an accident, they will
>attempt to ensure their ship is legal at all times.

Well, the body doing the requirement, as I said above, doesn't change 
the issue of whether the requirement is needed.

>Think about the difference in damage potential between a 747 and
>a subsidized merchant.
>Then think about the greater effect that damage will have on an
>orbital starport.
>
>Security on a starship will be required to be tight to prevent
>"passengers" from taking control of the starship and flying it
>into the starport, or other targets of oppurtunity.

And the question is whether
a) Is this likely (just because some sort of terrorist act is 
possible doesn't mean that someone is trying to do it.  We didn't 
protect against the 9/11 incident because, in past, such an act 
simply wasn't likely enough.  The failure was to recognize that rise 
of those willing and able to do such a thing).  There are still 
things out there were someone could cause loss of life that we don't 
protect against.
b) What are the measures necessary to achieve this security.

Now I wasn't following the thread so I don't know what has been 
discussed on either count.  I just wanted to point out that you can't 
assume that an insurance company, or other agency, would mandate any 
security measure you can think of regardless of the need.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>

>In fact, hunters and cops seem to take "stopping power" much more seriously
than the military.

I wouldn't say "more seriously;" it's just that they have different
objectives.  The military is happy to wound an enemy soldier and take him
plus one or more other combatants out of the fight as they try to save the
one who got hit.  Hunters want to bring the animal down right away so they
don't have to chase it.  Police are often trying to protect themselves and
innocent people, so once they decide to shoot, they don't want the suspect
to get back up, or not fall at all.

Interestingly, the Colt .45 Model 1911 was designed to give American
soldiers enough stopping power to knock down an oncoming Philippino
guerilla.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
Message-ID: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1E287.5BD606E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term =
"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?

The origin is bugging me....

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1E287.5BD606E0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can anyone suggest where they first saw =
reference=20
to the Term "Ortillery" for orbital artillery?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The origin is bugging=20
me....</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1E287.5BD606E0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com> <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3CB77AE9.17CE776@mindspring.com>

Joseph Elric Smith wrote:

> Ack so close and yet so far.
> ken
> VA beach

Pungo?



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com> <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net> <3CB77AE9.17CE776@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <010301c1e282$a2382960$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Virginia Beach VA
Ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Send more humans


> Joseph Elric Smith wrote:
> 
> > Ack so close and yet so far.
> > ken
> > VA beach
> 
> Pungo?
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
>                                -Steve Martin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
References: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CB77CAC.A913834@mindspring.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> "Ortillery" for orbital artillery? The origin is bugging me....

Right here on the TML a few months back. I guess that doesn't help much.

Obtrav: Things like this probably happen with Xmail all the time.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 19:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 12 18:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com> <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net> <3CB77AE9.17CE776@mindspring.com> <010301c1e282$a2382960$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3CB781F2.33EEA6C8@mindspring.com>

Joseph Elric Smith wrote:

> Virginia Beach VA
> Ken
>
> Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [TML] Send more humans
>
> > Joseph Elric Smith wrote:
> >
> > > Ack so close and yet so far.
> > > ken
> > > VA beach
> >
> > Pungo?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> > www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> > I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
> >                                -Steve Martin
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Yes, I'm in Pungo borough. You?


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 19:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri Apr 12 18:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <3cb77b2c.15566185@post.demon.co.uk>

Richard Huxton <red@archonet.com> writes:

>I had a sudden vision of a jump-capable planet working its way around =
the=20
>galaxy sucking gas giants dry between jumps.

Using HG2, rather than Book 2.  Afraid I missed the price target
slightly, but cost overruns are inevitable on a project of this scope.
;-)

Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =20

MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
78,886,000,000,000,000,000 tons
Crew=3D394,428,000,000,000,000
TL=3D13

Passengers=3D0 Low=3D0 Cargo=3D1,498,825,000,000,000,000 tons
=46uel=3D34,710,000,000,000,000,000 EP=3D(lots) Agility=3D0 Marines=3D0

I didn't fit armament, but there's lots of spare cargo space to play
with.  This ship can also be supplied with a fuel shuttle which,
coincidentally enough, looks rather like a moon....

The crew needed for the ship is a little steep, since it needs about
65 million times the population of present-day Terra.  Also, my
geometry is extremely rusty, but I'm right in thinking that 4/3 pi r^3
is the formula for volume of a sphere, aren't I?  (And that Earth's
radius is 6,412,000m).

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018630776.524.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <ML-2.3.1018630776.524.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020413123016.B12650@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> (Tim: I think you gave vaporization energy in calories, not joules).

Ick!  No, I just mistyped 2.3e5 instead of 2.3e6 joules per kilogram
for latent heat of vaporization :/ Of course, that means that the
original 6.8kJ calculation was even further off.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chem Det Missiles
References: <20020410050411.0205627AA5@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB798C4.4E90DEB3@earthlink.net>

Question for the list:

Has anyone developed any design rules for chem-det missiles
in a rulesset other than GURPS?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018641727.2102.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204121814.DXL07610@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <ML-2.3.1018641727.2102.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020413123527.C12650@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Incidentally, where does the idea of 1.3nm X-rays penetrating
> atmosphere come from?

I expect it's a typo for 1.3 um.  Of course, you need handwave
focussing to get a 1mm spot size with such a wavelength in a
pistol-sized weapon past 20 metres or so, but that's not problem for
Traveller.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB75306.59A09CC@premier.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1018646710.9067.ajackson@ping> <3CB75306.59A09CC@premier.net>
Message-ID: <20020413124722.D12650@freeman.little-possums.net>

John Groth wrote:
> According to FM 25-51, Battalion Task Force Nuclear Training, a dose
> of 8,000-18,000 rad is projected to cause the hapless victim to
> "become completely and permanently incapacitated for performing
> physical tasks within 5 minutes."

Yep.  Good if you want to make sure someone dies rather soon, but not
as good if they're actively shooting at you *right now*.

Note: For gamma rays, a whole-body dose of 18000 rads works out to an
absorbed energy of about 15 kJ.  I reckon absorbing 15 kJ of laser or
kinetic energy would "completely and permanently incapacitate" the
victim pretty quickly too.

A nuclear damper in the area is probably going to nullify a radiation
weapon based on decay of radioactive isotopes.  Not that I'm saying
that's the only way to build a radiation weapon, of course, but
something to be aware of.  If set to accelerate decay, it might even
melt down the weapon with disastrous consequences to the wielder.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 21:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Doug C.)
Date: Fri Apr 12 20:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
References: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <3CB77CAC.A913834@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB7A9FD.3BD6AF65@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hmmm,
Seems to me there is a ref in 'The Spinward Marches Campaign'
Douglas

alan spik wrote:

> MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> > Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> > "Ortillery" for orbital artillery? The origin is bugging me....
>
> Right here on the TML a few months back. I guess that doesn't help much.
>
> Obtrav: Things like this probably happen with Xmail all the time.
>
> --
> Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
>                                -Steve Martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 21:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 20:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
Message-ID: <200204130346.DYF01090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ortillery?

I saw it in Dirtside, a game to go with Full Thrust.

But I may have seen it in an SF novel before.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 22:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Fri Apr 12 21:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413085805.02756ec8@pop3.norton.antivirus>

At 01:05 AM 13/04/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term "Ortillery" 
>for orbital artillery?
>
>The origin is bugging me....

First I saw of it was in 'GT-Ground Forces'.
Hated it at first, but the term has grown on me.

Andrei Nikulinsky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 22:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Fri Apr 12 21:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001201c1e2a4$8e34e670$2f7de40c@loki>

Maray Rijam to some and Arkers Ayerin to others:

has been off the list for a few days and close to a grand in messages
but he already sees some good stuff. He'll have Mark Ayers respond to
the best of 'em as soon as he gets caught up. Now if the damn exorcist
could get Mosiac Tapestry and Eslaan Marakyr and Ark Ramsey and James
Richard Walker III and Farquhar McPhar and a few more alter egoes to
share in the duties. Hmmm?

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 23:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 12 22:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <F209IlOAPE3EzbwJp8k00003548@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone
can help out and pony up their house rules)."

     "Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-T) 
powerplant's energy output will be in the form of neutrons."


Mr. Kwon,

     This one's sort in my baliwick, the shielding bits that is.  I won't 
even attempt to guess-timate the energy range fusion-produced neutrons will 
have, but I'll assume (gulp) they won't be too far off from fission 
generated ones.
     The short story is that you'll need some heavy shielding, but not a bad 
as the equivalent in gamma radiation will require.  The shielding you choose 
should have LOTS of hydrogen in it as hydrogen atoms will slow, reflect, and 
eventually stop neutrons better than anything else.
     One nasty side effect of neutron radiation will be the eventual 
deterioration of the materials your power plant is made of.(The early 
embrittlement of fission reactor vessels due to neutron bombardment is the 
reason some plants in the US have been decommisioned ahead of schedule.)  
Annual maintenance might involve detection and replacement of components 
effected by neutron exposure.
     GURPS Compedium II has servicable rad rules.  IIRC, there are some MT 
rules in a DGP Digest issue that deal with exposure rather exhaustively.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 23:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri Apr 12 22:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
In-Reply-To: <3CB7A9FD.3BD6AF65@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEEOEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

> MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> > Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> > "Ortillery" for orbital artillery? The origin is bugging me....
>
> Right here on the TML a few months back. I guess that doesn't help much.
>
> Obtrav: Things like this probably happen with Xmail all the time.
-----------
There was a description in the JTAS Issue number 9 page 21 This is the issue
which first described the organisation of the Duke of Reginas Huscarles. The
unit had  an attached ortillery squadron consisting of 3 system defence
boats. The unit at this time also had a squadron of 10 50dt single place
fighters and 2 50dt dual place fighters in the units flight HQ

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 23:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 22:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <200204130523.DYJ00139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" says
>
>     The short story is that you'll need some heavy 
>shielding, but not a bad as the equivalent in gamma 
>radiation will require.  The shielding you choose 
>should have LOTS of hydrogen in it as hydrogen atoms will 
>slow, reflect, and eventually stop neutrons better than 
>anything else.

Some of the neutrons need to be captured and converted to 
thermal energy - probably the liquid lithium blanket we 
always hear about.  After that, polyethylene, and lots of it.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 00:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (nellkyn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 23:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
References: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <006001c1e2b7$f0047100$81e868d5@k5k9u6>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1E2C0.20DF7C40
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

First edition of the Dirtside wargames rules by Ground Zero Games. Sorry =
I don't know what year they were published but it was prior to 1989, if =
my memory serves me correctly. Try contacting GZG directly as Jon =
Tuffley may be able to let you know where he first heard the term. =
Failing that, the GZG Mailing list may be able to help.

Off to TravCon in 15 minutes. See you there if you're coming.

Neil
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: MJ Dougherty=20
  To: tml@travellercentral.com=20
  Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 1:05 AM
  Subject: [TML] Ortillery


  Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term =
"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
  =20
  The origin is bugging me....

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1E2C0.20DF7C40
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>First edition of the Dirtside wargames =
rules by=20
Ground Zero Games. Sorry I don't know what year they were published but =
it was=20
prior to 1989, if my memory serves me correctly. Try contacting GZG =
directly as=20
Jon Tuffley may be able to let you know where he first heard the term. =
Failing=20
that, the GZG Mailing list may be able to help.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Off to TravCon in 15 minutes. See you =
there if=20
you're coming.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Neil</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk" =
title=3Dmartinjd@globalnet.co.uk>MJ=20
  Dougherty</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:tml@travellercentral.com"=20
  title=3Dtml@travellercentral.com>tml@travellercentral.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, April 13, 2002 =
1:05=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [TML] Ortillery</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can anyone suggest where they first =
saw reference=20
  to the Term "Ortillery" for orbital artillery?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The origin is bugging=20
me....</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1E2C0.20DF7C40--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 01:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Sat Apr 13 00:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [Request] Black War Ships, statistics/history
Message-ID: <LAW2-F143KWtXgzyKyF00003ac6@hotmail.com>

Hi,

I'm interested in if possible/legal obtaining a copy of the article in 
Challenge 60, which covered the history/stats of the "Black War" ships 
produced in the lead up to the collapse. Either a .txt or .pdf file is 
acceptable.

Graham

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 02:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 01:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204110412.g3B4CU601389@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20412.221249.4a6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard writes:
>> The problem is, different things depend on *different* ratios. 
>> 
>> Some depend on things like the charge to mass ratio of particles.
>> Others depend on things like the ratios of the *squares* of of things.
>> And some are things like square roots. Or weirder ratios. 
>> 
>> You *can't* make them all match. 
>
> Even if all four fundamental forces & inertia (i.e. apparent
> mass) drop simultaneously by the same factor? Wouldn't then
> the ratios between these values (and those other values based
> on them) all stay the same? -Jim

As an example, a lot of things depend on the fine structure constant.
Which contains things like the *square* of the charge of the electron.

Which means that if you halve the value of the charge, the value of the
fine structure constant drops to one-quarter.

So the ratios of stuff that depend on the value of things drops to 1/2,
but stuff that depends on the *square* of the values drops to 1/4.
Making one set of properties *twice* as big relative to the other.

There are other things that depend on stuff like the 3/2 power of
various forces...

So, no, you can't adjust the properties at all without making
*something* different. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 02:06:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 01:06:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20412.223302.9s3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Apart from that, your goal is to have the behaviour of atoms (and more
>> complex systems) behave in the same way as before inertial
>> suppression, correct?  This requires more than just changing the
>> strength of forces.
>
> The goal was to theoretically examine inertial suppression as a
> means for making high accelleration (say anywhere from 50g to 1000g)
> doable for a STL-based RPG, so that we'd be able to have speedy
> interstellar travel from a subjective viewpoint (a few days to a few
> weeks from the viewpoint of the crew, although it would be years
> or even decades from the viewpoint of those not taking the trip).
>
> In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
> both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
> physics as we know it, and both of you know a lot more about
> physics than I do, so it seems that I'm going to have to relent
> and give up on this idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes
> infeasible, and we're left with FTL (which has already been done
> to death). Ah well... -Jim

The thing is, you are stuck on the idea of inertial suppression. It's
possible to compensate for acceleration forces, *without* messing with
inertia.

If you can generate artificial gravity of some sort, then you can
neutralize acceleration up to the point where the acceleration equals
the max strength of the artifical gravity. 

Likewise, if your drive uses forces similar to gravity, in that they
act evenly on all particles composing the ship, there won't be any
*apparent* acceleration. 

What causes trouble with acceleration is the fact that it's being
transmitted to the contents of the ship by the structure of the ship
(ie drive pushes on drive mounts, drive mounts push on load-bearing
framework & hull, frame and hull push on decks, decks push on crew). 

So if the drive generates a *field* that affects all of the ship
equally, then each atom (actually each subatomic particle) is pushed
*directly*. 

So the effect is that you are in free fall. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 02:06:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 01:06:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20412.224526.0W9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
>> the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
>> a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
>> strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
>> hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
>> when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
>> decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
>> just one simple example.
>> 
>> Hence inertial suppression requires more than just changing the
>> strength of forces.  If you want the atoms to behave the same way, you
>> need to alter fundamental constants as well.
>  
> Why does h influence the size of the atom?

Because Planck's constant is the basis of all quantum effects. It's how
"grainy" the universe is. Change it and you change the size of the
"orbits" of the electrons. 

> Also, how do we know that h is a fundamental constant and not
> dependant on the factors we might be changing (i.e. fundamental
> forces) with the intertial suppression scheme?

We don't. But so far all attempts to come up with theories (hypotheses,
if you want to be picky) that will explain experimental data and
observations we already have but have h be a "side effect" of something
else.

Or to put it another way, h is a *measurement* of how energy & time
relate or position and momentum relate.

> Are you saying that by reducing the mass, the orbitals of the electrons
> are going to be larger?

Sort of. The compton wavelength of the electron is h/(me*c) where h is
Planck's constant, me is the mass of the electron, and c is the speed
of light.

Lower the mass of the electron and the wavelength gets longer. Which
means the electron is more smeared out. Since the "orbitals" are just a
simpler way of looking at the way the wavelength of the electron
achieves a "resonance" at given distances (ie you could think of the
orbitals as being the distances where the "orbit" is one, two, three,
etc wavelengths long) changing the wavelength changes the size of the
orbit...

> I'm not completely sure how plank's constant enters into this.

See the above. Remember, particles also act like waves. Planck's
constant determines how "big" the waves are.

> If you say you are reducing the effect of an electronic charge by the
> same percentage that you are reducing the mass, all should be good,
> even if that means plank's constant has changed, which, I admit, I
> was hoping to avoid... but when you mentioned that you created a
> set of mechanics which worked perfectly well w/ all the constants
> changing... hmm.

Yes, but the thing is, the set of changes essentially amount to
changing the scale of the universe. Whoopee. No one *inside* would be
able to tell the difference.

> I'm thinking that perhaps these constants come out of evaluating
> quantities such as the size of an atom.... in other words, perhaps
> ZPF taming (inertial suppression & fundamental force suppression)
> would end up modifying these so-called constants. But I don't know
> enough about plank's to really make that assessment. Basically, what
> I'm driving at here, is if you dropped the values of the fundamental
> forces, would planck's constant also change as a result of that? If
> so, then we've got a bit of a squirrely situation which might just
> work mathematically, but which would make your average physics
> doctorate have a cow.

There actually *are* people who've tried to work out what the universe
would be like if the values of various fundamental constants were
different. And it turns out that anything other than truly miniscule
changes will result in physics such that *matter* won't exist. 

As I recall, one of the common results is that no atoms other than
"protium" (H1) could exist. All because of interactions between the
different constants.

> Well, I'm sorta torn between this idea and Alcubierre's FTL (space
> warping) idea, but we've discussed that one a few months ago, and
> if I remember correctly, you made the contention that it leads to
> wormholes and time travel, which we really don't want to deal with.
> That's (a small) part of the reason I was hoping to use this inertial
> suppression idea instead, but if it can't be explained in a way that
> a physics major would say... "hmm... interesting... and I can't really
> disprove it either... nor does it lead to ridiculous & exploitable
> technologies" then maybe it shouldn't be used. I'm shooting for
> something with a hard-SF feel. If we wanted soft-SF, we'd use
> hyperspace and quasispace from starcon2.

Ok, FTL *must* lead to time-travel. Period. No way out.

Because of the way time and space are related, *any* pair of events A &
B such that the "interval" (the 4d space-time equivalent of distance in
3d space) between them is "FTL" (ie light couldn't get from the
location of A to the location of B in the time between the two events)
*is* time travel in at least one frame of reference.

That is, for observers moving at some speed relative to A & B, B will
occur before A. 

And no, this is *not* a mere matter of observatiuon. *Correcting* for the
relative motion, B happens first.

It's a matter of geometry. Completely unavoidable. Things like going
thru another universe don't help, because it doesn't matter *how* you
get from A to b faster than light, just that you *did*. 

So you just have to live with it. 

In Traveller, it's moderately difficult to travel into the past.
Because the jump drive is "slow" enough that you'd have to get ships
moving at a fair fraction of lightspeed to get them into the past.

Also, just because time travel is possible doesn't mean it is *useful*.

Assuming global casuality is preserved (ie effects always have causes,
even if some observers see them in reverse order) but local causality
isn't (ie some observers see effects before causes), then you can
travel in time, but you can't *change* anything. 

So if you went back to last week to try to stop yourself from doing
something, *something* would happen. You might break your leg, or get
arrested for jaywalking or something. 

But if you went to last week somewhere *else*, you'd have some
freedom, because you wouldn't *know* what the past was *there*. 

Check out Dr. Robert Forward's novel Timemaster for a wormhole based
FTL drive that allows time travel and complies with this sort of
restrictions.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 03:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 02:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <B8DD422F.3A0F2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all.

I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
plug it in and get the cost in Credits.

See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to

http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 05:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Apr 13 04:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cb77b2c.15566185@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
 <3cb77b2c.15566185@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020413131941.21300d11.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> The crew needed for the ship is a little steep, since it needs about
> 65 million times the population of present-day Terra.

Not really.

Consider that the entire volume is used, compared to just the surface.

You didn't fit a 6G manuever drive. I'm dissappointed  :-)

I really, really have to do some FF&S calculations. I think that the
staterooms should fit well into the volume, even leaving space for other
machinery.

On a serious note: Really large ships need some kind of internal rapid
transit system. Has anyone played around with numbers for this? Just
designing tunnels of a certain diameter and making a subway system should
work fine.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 05:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Sat Apr 13 04:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] Website update - Links page refreshed
Message-ID: <8A25820D-4ED0-11D6-8747-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support
http://www.bits.org.uk/

Another website update - thank you to a number of people who pointed out 
that there were a large number of links that didn't work anymore. As a 
result, I've just checked and updated the links.

Additions include Traveller Central, the TML archives, Solsec, 
Quiklink.... Thanks to Tod Glenn and Mark Urbin for the suggestions they 
gave me in January (!!).

Deletions include Halfway Station and the Missouri Archive. In the case of 
the latter, does anyone know where it's gone or have an email address for 
Joe heck. I'm willing to put the material up at BITS but need to get hold 
of it first.

If you have a website you think should be there - Traveller, SF or retail 
related* - let me know.

*retailers get there if they either stock Traveller or BITS or will order 
the material in.

Cheers,

Dom
BITS webmaster
webmaster@bits.org.uk

---------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com----------
     MacOS X 10.1 - Unix with Style
"Reality, is something that you rise above..
We don't see things as they are,  we see them as we are."
Rich - Marillion - .com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat Apr 13 05:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] Website update - Links page refreshed
In-Reply-To: <8A25820D-4ED0-11D6-8747-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEGMDKAA.tml@downport.com>

http://traveller.mu.org/ the Missouri Archive

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Dominic Mooney
Deletions include Halfway Station and the Missouri Archive. In the case of
the latter, does anyone know where it's gone or have an email address for
Joe heck. I'm willing to put the material up at BITS but need to get hold
of it first.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 07:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr 13 06:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a  starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020411151634.0209ac08@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <DAV14LEGhUOjO0L6WkQ00004c57@hotmail.com>


> Good post.

Thank you, sir.

>A couple of points to think about: one of them being the
> general piracy scenario (but that's not one I want to go into now).

Same here, actually.  My main purpose here is to use the pirate scenario to
illuminate certain ideas concerning insurance and (later on) litigation.  I
have no interest in proving how many pirates can dance on the head of a pin.
<g>

>The
> other being the definition of when the ship becomes salvage (versus the
> recovery of stolen property).  Hopefully someone with better knowledge of
> maritime law can chime in here, but the rule of thumb that I've used IMTU
> goes as follows:

<Followed by five paragraphs chocked full of Traveller gaming goodness.>

I like the way you handle salvage IYTU.  I especially like the "Ownership
Abandoned" list put out by insurance companies for tax purposes.

After scrying using the Orb of Google, it appears that we may both mean the
Law of Finds rather than salvage.

Salvage appears to be recompense for the rescue or recovery of a vessel or
property for which ownership can be established.  In many cases, this
compensation is such that simply giving the salvor salvaged property is the
best way to straighten things out.

Law of Finds would seem to apply where ownership can't be determined in a
reasonable period of time, or ownership has been abandoned.  Law of Finds
basically says "Finders keepers, losers weepers."  You find it - you keep
it.

Note also that special cases seem to apply to historical shipwrecks and
military vessels.

http://www.cpanet.freeserve.co.uk/salvagelaw.htm

www.law.cornell.edu/background/amistad/salvage.html

http://law.freeadvice.com/admiralty_maritime/salvage_and_treasure/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lasalle/owners.html

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 07:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr 13 06:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Images - Visual goodies for Traveller games
Message-ID: <DAV582gNDSWnV8u622h00004bc9@hotmail.com>

Not to mention some genuinely fascinating stuff.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DD422F.3A0F2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>

At 02:02 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Greetings all.
>
>I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
>currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
>CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
>plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
>
>See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
>
>http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html

I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:19:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:19:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Russian translation?
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080300.009fb870@mindspring.com>

Quick question for Trojan Reach.

What is the correct translation of New Moscow?  In Anglic characters, please.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Russian translation?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080300.009fb870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB84D28.11DDCBDC@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> Quick question for Trojan Reach.
> 
> What is the correct translation of New Moscow?  In Anglic characters, please.

Novaya Moskva.

In as close to Cyrillic as ASCII allows, "HOBARA MOCKBA", where the "R"
is reversed to become the Cyrillic "ya."

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DD9BDF.3A104%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:05 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
>> I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
>> currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
>> CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
>> plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
>> 
>> See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
>> 
>> http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> 
> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> 

What browser are you using?  What currency did you try to convert?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB84E2C.D57685D0@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 02:02 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Greetings all.
> >
> >I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
> >currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
> >CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
> >plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
> >
> >See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
> >
> >http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> 
> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.

Well, things were less expensive when Traveller first came out.... ;-)

I get the same results, regardless of currency tried.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB84E2C.D57685D0@premier.net>
Message-ID: <B8DD9D45.3A108%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:26 AM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:

>> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> 
> Well, things were less expensive when Traveller first came out.... ;-)
> 
> I get the same results, regardless of currency tried.

Are you using commas in the amount?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DD9D45.3A108%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB8507B.5ABAC1B9@premier.net>


Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> on 4/13/02 8:26 AM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:
> 
> >> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> >
> > Well, things were less expensive when Traveller first came out.... ;-)
> >
> > I get the same results, regardless of currency tried.
> 
> Are you using commas in the amount?

No, I'm not.  (Should I?)  And to answer the question you asked Doug,
I'm using Netscape Navigator 4.78.


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DD9BDF.3A104%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB85132.3D63F4E5@mindspring.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/13/02 8:05 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
> >> I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
> >> currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
> >> CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
> >> plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
> >>
> >> See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
> >>
> >> http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> >
> > I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> >
>
> What browser are you using?  What currency did you try to convert?
>
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

I'm getting Cr 0 also. 1 to 1e6 Cr. With or without commas, periods, etc....

Obtrav: The exchange rate for TL 8 systems without regular interstellar commerce
SUCKS!


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB85132.3D63F4E5@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:39 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

> 
> I'm getting Cr 0 also. 1 to 1e6 Cr. With or without commas, periods, etc....
> 
> Obtrav: The exchange rate for TL 8 systems without regular interstellar
> commerce
> SUCKS!

again.  Need platform and browser.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDA624.3A114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:50 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> on 4/13/02 8:39 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I'm getting Cr 0 also. 1 to 1e6 Cr. With or without commas, periods, etc....
>> 
>> Obtrav: The exchange rate for TL 8 systems without regular interstellar
>> commerce
>> SUCKS!
> 
> again.  Need platform and browser.


Naturally, there is a bug in older version of Netscape's JavaScript that
I'll have to code around.

Version 6.0 works fine, or course.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DDA624.3A114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:08:53AM -0700
References: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <B8DDA624.3A114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020413101359.A27360@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:08:53AM -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> Naturally, there is a bug in older version of Netscape's JavaScript that
> I'll have to code around.

You might want to write the thing as a Perl ( or Python or Ruby or...)
CGI.  This a good way to eliminate such issues, since CGI is a much
more standard interface.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The age of chivalry is gone.  That of sophisters, economists and
calculators has succeeded; and the glory of Europe is extinguished
forever.   --Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020413101359.A27360@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B8DDA982.3A117%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 9:13 AM, Robert A. Uhl at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:08:53AM -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>> 
>> Naturally, there is a bug in older version of Netscape's JavaScript that
>> I'll have to code around.
> 
> You might want to write the thing as a Perl ( or Python or Ruby or...)
> CGI.  This a good way to eliminate such issues, since CGI is a much
> more standard interface.

But slower.  Just being quick and dirty.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits? Fixed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDA9B2.3A118%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:05 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

> At 02:02 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>> Greetings all.
>> 
>> I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
>> currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
>> CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
>> plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
>> 
>> See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
>> 
>> http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> 
> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> 

I fixed the code to work around a bug in older versions of netscape.  Please
try again.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 11:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Sat Apr 13 10:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: An Army marches on its stomach
References: <20020412150305.5859C27AC9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB866AF.A3E0F8AB@earthlink.net>

Mike asked:
>
> What do our lovely Ex Mil Travs think of this recent development?
>
> Mikey

Well, I'm not ex-mil but I am wondering just what effects the humectants
will have on the moisture-laden human gastro-intestinal system over a
period of time.

Yeah, let's just try a BM with something that doesn't absorb moisture
easily. Then again, it just may help the males in the military
understand
child birth a little better.
 
> PS You just know that someone is going end up eating the moisture sachet
> at one point. 

Naturally.

> PPS Can someone please translate what 'acceptable' actually means in the
> context of below. 

"Acceptable" as in they don't have to eat it all the time?


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 11:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Apr 13 10:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 11:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 10:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDB8E2.3A16C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 10:13 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61

Can you try again?  I changed some code and it seems to be fixed.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 12:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 11:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20413.101338.3x0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet...
> or even the moon?

size 7 planet is roughly 5,600,000 meters in radius. Or 748e18 m^3
volume. Or 55e18 dtons (at 13.5 m^3 per dton).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 12:17:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 11:17:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020411155818.5b11fc3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20413.101809.8V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Christopher Pratt wrote:
>> What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet... or
> even
>> the moon?
>
> Calculations for Luna follow:
>
> Using a diameter of 3.476 E+6 meters:
>
> Volume: 1.759 E+20 cubic meters

No. Volume is 4/3 pi r^3. You used diameter instead of radius. 

22e18 m^3

> Displacement: 1.257 E+19 displacement tons

1.6e18

> Surface area: 3.796 E+13 square meters

37.9e12 m^2

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204122116.DXS00114@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.112406.5e1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I keep hearing around 20,000 rads, but I've also heard that 
> someone cooked like that can linger for a day or so.  There 
> were some accidents with the Therac-25 machine where people 
> were accidentally given the maximum output of the machine 
> because of software errors.  Some of the doses were in that 
> range.
>
> Also, it's not clear how they calculate dosage.  In the 
> accident for the Therac, they describe radiation through a 
> very small cross-section of the body, but also describe a 
> calculated "whole-body" dose.
>
> If shielding worked that well per your gadget, then it would 
> be possible to build a small short range weapon that 
> consisted of shielding, a source that could produce a 20,000 
> rad/sec emission, and a shutter.
>
> I don't think that there's a handwave for "my body is dead 
> and I don't know it yet".

Doses above 600(?) rads will kill. But it'll take weeks to years. 

But as a rule of thumb, doubling the dosage halves the time to death.
And vice versa.

And unlike what we see in far too much SF on TV and in movies, there's
no sharp demarcation between "you're dead" and "you'll be ok".

Heck, if you use that rule of thumb I mentioned above, you'll find that
typical background counts will kill you in about 70 years. <g>

Oh yeah, most dosage stuff is LD50. That is, a "lethal in X days" dose
will kill 50% of those receiving it in that time. Some die sooner, some
die later.

We do have some data for *really* high exposures from a few accidents.
At least a couple *did* involve "prompt incapacitation" (5 min or less).

And the symptoms for that sort of dosage aren't pretty. Spewing form
both ends of the digestive tract, convulsions and other fun things.

Caring for someone who is *that* far gone is going to be really rough
on the other PCs. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:15:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:15:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.114937.2h4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Derek Wildstar says
> <snip derek's take on adjacent ships activating their 
> hyperdrive>
>
> That sounds pretty good. It means, however, that ships might 
> have a minimum separation, which affects fleet actions.

Actually, at the velocities most fleets will be moving at, and given
the danger zones of weapons, ships are *very* unlikely to be less than
*kilometers* apart, and likely tens or even hundreds of km apart.

Being able to *see* an adjacent ship in "formation" with the naked eye
will be *very* unusual. The excepts will be things like cargo and
personnel transfer operations.

> Would we also have another problem a la B5? Starting one jump 
> field within another?

Nobody knows what happens if you try. No ship that was going to try
testing that has ever been heard from again. <eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:15:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:15:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120438.DWL01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.115941.9D3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>  
>>
>>What are you looking for characterwise?
>>
> More Intel characters, especially a computer expert.

What, you have something against Motorola employees? <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:16:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:16:25 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
In-Reply-To: <20020412.131217.-193605.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20413.120658.7M5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Grade C   Civilian cheap/Ancient Military Surplus
>> Grade B2  Military Surplus
>> Grade B1  Civilian average
>> Grade A2  Current Military
>> Grade A1  Civilian Expedition Grade
>
> Ah the lucky service men/women of today are blessed with grade A food,
> HA!
>
> Back in 1972 - 1975 all I ever saw, ate, and enjoyed, HA, were C Rations
> packed in 1953!!!

Well, back in the late 60s/early 70s, I used to grab the Air Force
equivalent ("in flight meal packs") at the commissary to take on Boy
Scout camping trips. Basicly, we used them for dinner on Friday night
when we were tired after setting up camp, and didn't feel much like
putting a lot of effort into cooking. 

Some were better than others, but none were all that *bad*. And some
things, like the fruitcake and poundcake desserts were worth fighting
over. <g>

I was using a WWII vintage messkit and a WWII canteen & cup at the
time. Turned out that Lipton "instant soup" packages made exactly
enough soup for a canteen cup full of water. 

And the cans from the meal packs fit into the cup nicely too. Boil them
for a bit and they were nice and hot.

Then again, I liked most food in the school caefteria, so I may not be
the best judge of these things. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
References: <20020413111907.EC28E27AF7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB88500.956F16CB@ameritech.net>



> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:05:39 -0400
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
> Subject: Re: [TML] The "gun" debate
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> At 01:46 PM 4/12/02 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> > > From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> > >> Please...
> > > Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> > > sex lives.
> >Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
> >subscribe via the digest.
> >Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
> >mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT
> >political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to
> >keep the list Traveller focused.
> 
> Hmmm...I haven't noticed the thread discussing the politics of 
> ownership

<snip>

There were a few. Thankfully not followed up on by others. Hence my
statement, "the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT political
issues...." To be honest I may be reacting more to trolls in sig files
than to the threads themselves. 

Sorry if I've offended.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204121200450.15966-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20413.122049.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> learened that the IRS doesn't keep  old Windrone machines. So the records
> kept say on a Winblown 95v1 is not viewable by the IRS. Keep that in mind
> for an audit. Got that from the H&R block people in town.

Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system. 

The disk formats haven't changed (not the flopiy ones anyway) and the
newer programs can generally read the data files from the older ones.

>  O.K. add the different Apples, Atarai, Franklin, Osborne <sp?> and for
> the U.K. members I will mention the Speccy <Spectrum: flame wars on
> comp.sys.cbm about this one> Each had a different basic. To the point that
> they wer pretty much incompatible with each other. I know that ther were
> other models using other Basic formats and loading. I know that my
> prefered PC system uses GCR formatiing. I think another one is called MFD,
> but am not certain of the title.

FM (aka "single density") and MFM (aka "double density" and "high density").

Most "modern" floppy controller chips can't read FM disks. But a lot of
fairly recent ones can. For example, the Adaptec SCSI cards that
include a floppy controller can. 

With some easily available software I can read TRS-80 floppies on my
PC. To read Commodore or Apple GCR disks, I'd have to install the old
CopyIIPC deluxe option board in one of my systems. 

>  Now take all of those and what I missed. Add to that the IBuM system
> starting from the Pc jr. to current. All the differeent versions of the
> windoze NT and ## themes. I mean can you today on the X thing read a disk
> from a PC jr  on original media/format?

PCjr floppies used the same format as the PC. 

No idea what the X-box uses. 

What gets fun is when you need to read things like 8" floppies or the
whacko Amstrad 3" (*not* 3.5"!) floppies. Or cassette tapes, or stringy
floppies or other weird media.

I once had to recover a program by reading paper tape by *hand*. 

>> It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the
>> Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of
>> pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding
>> and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of
>> languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate,
>> lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications
>> protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of
>> getting messages into and out of the system.
>
>  Point well stated. Computer incompatibilities would make the Imperiaum
> fall apart. Before the MT saga. Pardon me for using the Commodore as an
> example platform in this part. It is however the only one that I know to
> any degree. On the concept of  being standard for msg and images. I see a
> parrel to the C= PC platform. Take this msg that I am writing. Written in
> PINE 4.44 my e-mail system. Sent out in ASCII. Though my actual system
> uses the PET ascii as it's default system. HTML though for a msg does bug
> me and a lot of people. On my system it presents all the commands as well
> as the msg. Yet I can use a prg from last year called Wave B2.9 <still
> Beta> that allows me to read in 80c HTML. In fact my book mark file is
> converted that way. JOs a free Beta Test DL also will read on screen HTML.

I have a DOS program called HTMSTRIP that takes HTML and produces a
reasonably formatted plain text file. It even puts in the "boxes" in
tables. 

>  Images: I can veiw off line GIF and JPG files. Also I can pritn them
> through Post Script and even EPS <Encapsulated Post Script> Images. There
> is a tool that I haven't had yet to use. That will convert PDF to PS for
> my use and zip it in PK2.04g zip. A format that I can also use in packing
> and unpacking. All on a 1984 PC.

There's a DOS program that'll view many image formats, including .AVI
and MPEG files, and play a lot of sound formats. 

>  As i showed above. There would be those that would create ways to use the
> systems to see the new items. Though I do have a tendency to bristle at
> the term "standard". Been a victim of that erronous ideaology many times
> in many situations. I do think that some sort of "chip" is needed for the
> interchange of Imperial  material. Though there are probaly PRGs to
> convert the material to local standards. As i have tools to convert Ascii
> to PET ascii. Or the ability to log onto a BBS or even here with Ansi
> colours. Making the material sutible for the local inhabitants and the
> systems that they are using. The question is the reverse possible? Which
> is where the  story plot originated.

Well, the idea is that there need to be publicly available standards.
Having multiple standards is merely inconvenient as long as the info
on the file formats is available. 

>  Using today as an example. Can the Windoze users here read a file that I
> make? Well some of them they can. The previously mentioned gwimport.exe
> file. But that is only for text, not the images. There are emulators if
> the file is make in that format <.D64, .D71, .D81> But only work if the
> user hs the tool to use the files. Vice 1.8 IIRC. So I would suggest that
> something in the reverse that is from local to Imperial would need to have
> ben created. Or t here is some sort of thing. Like you mentioned the Inet.
> Where the ability to collect items of interest is found in some form of
> compatible mannerism.

The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
to import and export files in those formats.

Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:16:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <200204122133.DXT01374@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.123907.8I6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson talks about radioactivity
> <snip>
>
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone 
> can help out and pony up their house rules).
>
> Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-
> T) powerplant's energy output will be in the form of 
> neutrons.  

Except Traveller fusion plants don't use the D-T reaction. They would
appear to use some form of p-p reaction.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:16:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:16:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b8dd1a45b944@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20413.124305.2I4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> And the question is whether
> a) Is this likely (just because some sort of terrorist act is 
> possible doesn't mean that someone is trying to do it.  We didn't 
> protect against the 9/11 incident because, in past, such an act 
> simply wasn't likely enough.  The failure was to recognize that rise 
> of those willing and able to do such a thing).  There are still 
> things out there were someone could cause loss of life that we don't 
> protect against.

Just a few things off the top of my head...

Within half a mile of each other locally are the following:

A major "tank farm" for petroleum products.
A factory producing chlorine and hydrogen chloride by the ton. 
A producer of liquid oxygen (with a tank several stories tall!).
A semiconductor related plant that uses large quantities of stuff like
phosphine and arsine gases. 
A residential area.

Oh yeah, tankers dock between the chlorine/HCL producer and the tank farm...

For a real scare, read the labels on those tank cars on the railroad,
then look up the hazard warnings for the materials in question.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:17:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:17:11 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20413.125426.3y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61

You should try upgrading to 4.79.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F216ap21GXYqZM8Wapp0001d245@hotmail.com>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

     "You and Mr. Laning and I are in general agreement on this point.  
Solomani, whether Imperial or Confederate, suppress the truth of Vegan, 
Geonee, Azhanti, what-have-you revolts that finally toppled the Ziru Sirka."

Mr. Goffin,

     Thank you, sir.  Having the MYMINES, Ltd. legal department agree in 
general with my proposals is certainly heartening.  It means that I may be 
actually on to something and simply not just off my medicine.

     "An easy typographical error to make is Whipsnake, which is something 
else again, I suppose."

     My spell checker keeps wanting to "correct" my nom de List to Larceny 
Whipsnake.  Of course, it also spells Traveller with only one "L".  Silly 
CPU.
     Appropo of nothing, feeding Larsen E. Whipsnade into the wondefully 
weird "Vilani by Lonnie" engine results in this jaw breaker:

     Aagarashirenedanashiramik Huugarashire

     I think we may have stumbled across the name of the Vilani ambassador 
who visited the Sol system between the 2nd and 3rd Interstellar Wars and 
reported that Terra was nothing more than a "nest of pirates."  Oddly 
enough, immediately after that visit, Ambassador Huugarashire was able to 
retire rather earlier than most Ziru Sirka civil servants thanks in part to 
a very generous bequest in the will of a long lost uncle.  Even more oddly, 
the bequest was paid in Terran Confederation sols.  All inquiries about this 
strange turn of events should be directed to the ambassador's new address 
and should also use his new title.  Please forward all correspondance and/or 
summons to "King Huugarashire, third hammock from the left, the Isle of 
Yap."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <F264Wf26myeOi1EkcZy0001ef51@hotmail.com>

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

     "Except Traveller fusion plants don't use the D-T reaction. They would 
appear to use some form of p-p reaction."


Mr. Erickson,

     I know you've posted information on the p-p reaction many times before, 
but could you do so again please?  I'd like to see what sort of particles 
we'd be dealing with using that specific reaction.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB88500.956F16CB@ameritech.net>
References: <20020413111907.EC28E27AF7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413165050.01a26eb0@192.168.0.1>

At 02:20 PM 4/13/2002 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:05:39 -0400
> > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
> > Subject: Re: [TML] The "gun" debate
> > Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > At 01:46 PM 4/12/02 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > > > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> > > > From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> > > >> Please...
> > > > Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> > > > sex lives.
> > >Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
> > >subscribe via the digest.
> > >Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
> > >mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT
> > >political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to
> > >keep the list Traveller focused.
> > Hmmm...I haven't noticed the thread discussing the politics of
> > ownership
><snip>
>There were a few. Thankfully not followed up on by others. Hence my
>statement, "the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT political
>issues...." To be honest I may be reacting more to trolls in sig files
>than to the threads themselves.

Trolling sig files...Golly!   Who would do such a thing? :-)

>Sorry if I've offended.

Perhaps someone else may have been offended, but personally, I'm pretty 
thick skinned.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 15:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 13 14:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <20020413.142703.-23853.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

Mark

On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:52:38 -0400 Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
>
> Perhaps someone else may have been offended, but personally, I'm 
> pretty thick skinned.

Oh, thick skinned huh?

What's your armor rating?

Turokan :~)

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 15:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Apr 13 14:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Images - Visual goodies for Traveller games
In-Reply-To: <DAV582gNDSWnV8u622h00004bc9@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV582gNDSWnV8u622h00004bc9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020413234102.6af49573.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> Not to mention some genuinely fascinating stuff.
> 
> http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html

*drool*

Lovely link, thanks.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 15:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Apr 13 14:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20413.101809.8V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020411155818.5b11fc3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20413.101809.8V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020413234327.7deee729.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> No. Volume is 4/3 pi r^3. You used diameter instead of radius. 

*sound of head hitting table repeatedly*

I think I had a bit too much stupid for breakfast that day...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 19:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Sat Apr 13 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEBPCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

John Kwon wrote :-
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone
> can help out and pony up their house rules).

Modified GURPS radiation rules follow (exposure levels OK, biological
effects off a bit in G:Comp 2).
Contact me off-list for d20 and MT versions (the latter may still
be available on the Freelance Traveller site).


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

------------------------------
Acute radiation exposures can have adverse effects. Check on the
table, rolling against HT every day the character is exposed to
at least 1 rad per day. Compare with the character's total
accumulated dose to see what the effects are.

Radiation Effects Table
Dose (rads)    HT Roll
5-70       : Fail :- A, onset 1d+6 hours, lasts 1 day
           : Critical Fail :-  A, onset 1d hours, lasts 1 day
71-150     : Fail :- A, 1d hours
           : Critical Fail :- D(H), HA within 24h
151-300    : Success :- A, B(-1) within 48h
           : Fail :- D(H), HA within 24h
           : Critical Fail :- E, 1d weeks
301-530    : Critical Success :- A, B(-1) within 48h
           : Success :- B(-2), C on exposure, D(H), HA within 48h
           : Fail :- E, 1d weeks
           : Critical Fail :- GI, within 48h
531-830    : All suffer A within 24h, C on exposure, E in 1d-1 weeks
           : Critical Success :- B(-2), D(E, H), HA within 24h
           : Success :- B(-3), D(E, H), HA within 24h
           : Fail or Critical Fail :- as per success, add
             GI within 24h
831-3000   : All suffer A within 12 hours, B(-3), C on exposure,
             D(E, H), GI within 12 hours, E in 3d+3 days
           : Critical Fail :- CV within 1d hours
3001-8000  : CV ; A, within 1d hours ; B(-3) ; C on exposure ;
             D(E, H, P) ; E, 1d days
8000+      : All suffer CV ; A within 1d hours and E within 4d hours.

* Key to Effects Table
A : Nausea, headache and vomitting (1d penalty to ST, DX, IQ).
Listed dice roll is for time of onset post exposure. Roll daily
against HT to recover 1 point of each attribute.
Critical success restores 2 points and means that symptoms are
controlled for that day.
Failure leads to the loss of 1 point, critical failure, 2.

B : Fatigue (penalty to ST and HT given). Roll daily to
recover 1 point of ST or HT on a critical
success. Failure loses 1 ST or HT point, critical failure loses 1
of each. Low Pain Threshold for seven days following exposure.

C : Incapacitation : -4 penalty on physical tasks for 2 days,
-2 on mental tasks for 1 day.

D : Skin changes. Erythema (E) is a mild reddening of the skin.
(H) refers to hair loss. Hair falls out within 24 hours.
(P) refers to partial thickness ("second degree") burns which do 1d damage.
Skin breakdown may ensue over the two weeks following exposure.

E : Death. Survival time from exposure without aggressive treatment
is given by the dice roll.

HA :- Haematopoietic syndrome - roll daily to prevent loss of 1 HT.
Stopped on critical success.
Hemophilia disadvantage in effect while ST, DX, IQ depressed.

GI :- Gastrointestinal syndrome - roll daily to prevent permanent
loss of 1 HT. Stopped on critical success. Characters have the Weak
Immune System disadvantage while affected, and are prone to diarrhoea
and fevers, in addition to symptoms listed above. If HT falls below 4,
teeth and nails begin to fall out.

CV :- Cerebral syndrome - 2 IQ and hits are lost within an hour
of exposure. Roll vs. HT to maintain consciousness (and prevent
loss of 1 HT on a critical success) every hour. With exposures
above 8000 rem, HT loss is irreversible. Consciousness checks
are made every hour at -2. Once consciousness is lost or HT falls
to zero, fitting ensues, then death.

* Long-term effects (months to years post exposure) :-
i. Cataracts - the threshold for development of lens opacities is a
dose of 200 rads. Make a HT check every six months, with a -1 for
every additional 100 rads of either acute or chronic exposure. On a
fail, the damage is spotted before it interferes with vision ; on a
critical fail, Blindness ensues.

ii. Dermatitis - cumulative exposures to the skin alone can cause
chronic skin changes. True radiation dermatitis is only seen at
exposure levels that would be lethal if they were whole
body doses (e.g. radiotherapy for some cancers). The skin effects
seen at the dose levels above are often permanent with chronic
exposures. In game terms, apply the Slow Healing or Reduced Hit
Points disadvantages to the relevant body area(s).

iii. Carcinogenesis - the probability of developing tumours varies
with the dose and the tissues affected ; the precise mechanisms of
initiation remain unclear as of 2001.
For example, the incidence of leukaemia peaks at 5-6 years post
exposure. Other malignancies have latencies of 15 to 60 years.

The probability of finding a clinically apparent malignancy
in any given year roughly increases with age. As a rule of thumb,
every 100 rads of radiation exposure increases the lifetime risk
by 1 percent.

Age   Probability  Very approximate dice rolls
< 15  1/3,000      30 on 5d6
< 35  1/750        24 on 4d6
< 54  1/125        22 or better on 4d6
< 75  1/30         12 on 2d6
> 75  1/60         17 or better on 3d6
(based on US cancer figures for 1980, both sexes)

For game purposes, a critical failure (18) on a HT roll means
that a malignancy has been detected. A -1 modifier applies for
every 200 rads of radiation exposure. Check once a year.

iv. Damage to Fertility
Reproductive cells are sensitive to radiation.
Dose (rads)    Effect
150            Sterility for 1-6 weeks
250            Sterility for 1-2 years
500            Permanent sterility in 75%
800            Permanent sterility in 100%



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 20:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Apr 13 19:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] landgrab questions
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEDOGHAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I've claimed Biter and was working on by landgrab and I have a few questions

What is the fleet number for the Imperial Sword World subsector fleet?
Where is it headquartered?
What is Lunion's fleet number?
Does it help out imperial forces in the Sword Worlds?



________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr 13 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of malfunction?
Message-ID: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>

Authenticity Disclaimer:  This information has not been verified by me or
anyone that I personally trust.  I do not know if the facts cited are true.

I await comment from the learned members of this group.

<Begin snip>

OFFICER SAFETY WARNING

Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) Unit Causes
Malfunction of Officer's Issue Firearm

In July 2001, an officer from the Manheim Township (Lancaster County,
Pennsylvania) Police Department had an incident where his issue firearm
malfunctioned. The Smith & Wesson, Model 4013, .40 S&W caliber,
semi-automatic pistol was found to have a magnetized firing pin, which stuck
to the side of the channel within the slide. Upon inspection, it was
determined that the entire pistol had become so magnetized that paper clips
actually stuck to any metal surface. The department armorer was able to
demagnetize the firearm with the use of a high-power, videotape-erasing unit
after complete disassembly.

When the malfunction was discovered, the officer had no idea of when or how
his pistol had become magnetized. A review of the officer's activities,
revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical office
that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During the
investigation, the officer had walked into the MRI suite that magnetized the
pistol. MRI medical personnel have detailed instructions on safety, which
include keeping metal objects away from the unit. Upon further inspection,
two additional officer's firearms were also found to have been magnetized.

RECOMMENDATION

ALL ISSUE FIREARMS SHOULD BE CHECKED FOR THIS CONDITION

Police department and medical facility security administrative personnel
should notify officers of the following:

Investigations within medical facilities could magnetize an issue firearm
rendering it inoperable.

The test to determine if a firearm has become magnetized is to place a paper
clip next to the firearm.

If the paper clip sticks to the firearm, a supervisor should be notified
immediately.

A trained department-designated officer should verify the firearm is
magnetized and the firearm should be demagnetized with the use of a
high-powered videotape-erasing unit after it has been completely
disassembled.

The firearm should be test fired prior to being returned to service.

The fact that there is no outward sign that a firearm may not function as a
result of MRI/magnetic exposure makes this problem difficult to detect.
Awareness of this situation may prevent serious or deadly consequences.

Source: Sing, Lieutenant Douglas K. Manheim Township (Lancaster County,
Pennsylvania) Police Department Revised March 2002.

<end snip>

from website

http://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/officersafetyMRI.htm

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DDB8E2.3A16C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413200302.009ee460@mindspring.com>

At 10:28 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>on 4/13/02 10:13 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > Tod Glenn wrote:
> >
> > P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61
>
>Can you try again?  I changed some code and it seems to be fixed.

Works now, nice little utility.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:08:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:08:21 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of
 malfunction?
In-Reply-To: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413200431.009efbd0@mindspring.com>

At 09:30 PM 4/13/02 -0500, you wrote:
>When the malfunction was discovered, the officer had no idea of when or how
>his pistol had become magnetized. A review of the officer's activities,
>revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical office
>that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During the
>investigation, the officer had walked into the MRI suite that magnetized the
>pistol. MRI medical personnel have detailed instructions on safety, which
>include keeping metal objects away from the unit. Upon further inspection,
>two additional officer's firearms were also found to have been magnetized.

Considering the officer had to walk past large signs warning that a BIG 
freaking magnet was in use, I think the department should charge him for 
the repairs.

I accidentally left my steel wedding ring on during my last MRI.  The damn 
thing vibrated to the point it actually became warm.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Terran/Vilani conflict (Was: Deadliness of combat)
In-Reply-To: <20020411004002.DF53927A7B@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140512410.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>     We've got the constant drum beat in canon about the Vilani "way of war"
>being brutally pragmatic.  They use hostages, have no qualms about nukes,
>target civilians, etc., etc., anything tactic that is cost effective.

What constant drum? We have _one_ reference that details Vilani war
practices, and that reference is of rather late vintage (MT) and is part
of the Forbidden Canon. If you find yourself unable to reconcile that with
the historical events of the Traveller Universe, then I'd suggest that its
the description of Vilani war practices that requires amendment.

>     The Ziru Sirka, or it's direct antecedents, were able to put the Vilani
>boot on the neck of quite a number of species and they've kept it there for
>millennia.  The fact that the Geonee, Suerrat, Syleans, et. al. are still
>being kept down at the same time the Terrans show up tells me that the
>Vilani could still get the job done.

It tells me that they didn't exterminate minor races wantonly, claims
about their ruthlessness to the contrary notwithstanding. So maybe they
weren't quite so ruthless as they are painted in _Cogs&Dogs_.

>     "The Vilani might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really
>capable of, or were under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder."
>
>     After losing the first two Interstellar Wars and visiting the Sol
>system, the Vilani should have known what the Terrans were really capable
>of.  GT:RoF also mentions that the Vilani, when faced with the bewildering
>welter of Terran cultures and genotypes, thought they were facing an
>alliance of several minor human races.  That "threat" alone should have
>spurred some sort of response.

Like a search for the other homeworlds of the alliance? I certainly can't
blame the poor Vilani governor for wanting to locate the other homeworlds
before destroying the only one he knew of. For all he knew Terra was just
the catspaw and the other races of the alliance the real threat...

>     It's the dichotomy that get's me wondering.  We've got ZS governors
>still keeping the boot on the neck of umpteen minor races, we've got the
>coreward governors arming and using Vargr mercs in political power games
>against each other, and, at the same time, we've got governor after governor
>after on the Rim behaving completely unlike the others throughout the ZS and
>losing piddling wars to a minor race nearly totally confined to a single
>system.

The Terrans made a huge effort early in the game to disperse to other
worlds precisely because they feared that Terra would be destroyed. By the
time the Vilani realized that they had a real fight on their hands, the
Terrans were no longer confined to a single system. And don't forget the
other members of that alliance of minor races...

>     "Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion sentients would do?"
>
>     But they'd done it in the past, i.e. the Sky Raiders, and were
>currently threatening to do it to others, the many minor races being held
>down, so why didn't it happen to Sol?  The Ziru Sirka had the numbers, it
>had better technology, and it was chillingly ruthless.  How did it happen to
>lose?

Well, my take is that they didn't have the numbers. If the Vilani (as I
believe) considered 50 to 500 million an ideal size for a planetary
population and deliberately kept their major worlds fstable at those
levels, Terra could actually have outnumbered all the vilani worlds in
[Vilani name for Sol Sector] Sector.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
References: <20020413111905.52B7127AF6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004701c1e367$1bb70380$705e8690@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> But if you went to last week somewhere *else*, you'd have some
> freedom, because you wouldn't *know* what the past was *there*.
>
> Check out Dr. Robert Forward's novel Timemaster for a wormhole based
> FTL drive that allows time travel and complies with this sort of
> restrictions.

A week or two back I started working on an idea for a solo game.  It's since
developed into a world design system for a non-OTU game.  I'm using a
wormhole based FTL, as it allows you to use network/area mapping, and not
bother with "uninteresting" systems.

I'm going for a very abstract system, so fudges like this aren't a problem.

(Memo to self: does "FTL radio" exist?)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Deadliness of combat
In-Reply-To: <20020412005321.E214327A98@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>    All of Holland worked for their resistance, the Germans had a devil of
>time finding collaborators there.  The Danes, from the King on down, wore
>the yellow Star of David and helped their Jews escape to Sweden.

Actually, the story goes that King Christian threatened to wear the yellow
Star of David if it was forced on Danish Jews. I'm not sure how much truth
there is in that story. Denmark's situation during the early years of
occupation was anomalous. The Germans pretended that they were in Denmark
merely to protect us against attack by the Allies and that we were their
ally. Consequently they were hampered in just what they could 'request'
the Danish government to do. For instance, Danish Jews were never required
to wear the Star of David.

Indeed, I've been told that the Allies might have treated Denmark as a
true ally of Germany if it hadn't been for three things: Free Danish
sailors volunteering in droves to serve on English ships, the rescue of
the Jews, and the efforts of the Danish Resistance.

>ObTrav - So, from the Vilani point of view, who were the "French" to the
>Terran's "Nazis" during the Interstellar Wars?  The Vegans?  Some other
>human minor race?

Well, I imagine the Dingiransmust have become pretty thoroughly 'Terranized'
over the years for them to be made the new capital.



Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:10:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:10:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120438.DWL01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DE4F27.3A29F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 9:38 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>> 
>> What are you looking for characterwise?
>> 
> More Intel characters, especially a computer expert.
> 

No way, John.  That's too much like real life (I'm an IT professional).  The
computer expert does *not* wish to play a computer expert.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204140417.EAC00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson writes:
>What, you have something against Motorola employees? <g>
>
No, just AMD.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Deadliness of combat
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>; from rancke@diku.dk on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200
References: <20020412005321.E214327A98@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020413222116.A28871@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> Denmark's situation during the early years of occupation was
> anomalous.  The Germans pretended that they were in Denmark merely
> to protect us against attack by the Allies and that we were their
> ally.  Consequently they were hampered in just what they could
> 'request' the Danish government to do.

ISTR that at one point the King of Denmark was arrested.  It took
quite a bit of German military might to defeat retainers armed with
quarter-staffs, pole-arms and swords.  Or is that another king I'm
thinking of--or purely an urban legend?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To believe in gun control, one has to believe that guns are not an
effective means of self-defense, which is why police carry them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204140424.EAD00152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
<snip the hazards near his home>

Not too far from here is the Calvert Cliffs nuclear plant.  
A "very" short distance from there is a docking platform for 
LNG (liquified natural gas) tankers.  The dock and pipeline 
is not in use at the moment, but they are talking about 
reactivating it.

I remember reading about "sublimation" accidents.  They say 
that an ocean-going LNG tanker holds the equivalent of tens 
of kilotons of explosive power.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204140424.EAD00152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DE54E0.3A2B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 9:24 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Not too far from here is the Calvert Cliffs nuclear plant.
> A "very" short distance from there is a docking platform for
> LNG (liquified natural gas) tankers.  The dock and pipeline
> is not in use at the moment, but they are talking about
> reactivating it.
> 
> I remember reading about "sublimation" accidents.  They say
> that an ocean-going LNG tanker holds the equivalent of tens
> of kilotons of explosive power.

All you need is a big ship of fertilizer.  Remember Texas City?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204140452.EAD01433@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod says
<snip Texas City>

The problem with an LNG tanker is that anyone with a .50 BMG 
rifle within 1 km can put a hole in one of the tanks.  It 
doesn't have to be a HE or HEI round.  But once that leak 
pops, there's a runaway sublimation effect that blows the 
tank open and then the whole ship goes.

There were some concerns voiced about the effect that ships 
like this might have in a confined waterway.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 23:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat Apr 13 22:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEBPCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <000301c1e373$27a9fb00$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Robert O'Connor
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 18:47
To: TML, New
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules

John Kwon wrote :-
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone
> can help out and pony up their house rules).

Modified GURPS radiation rules follow (exposure levels OK, biological
effects off a bit in G:Comp 2).
Contact me off-list for d20 and MT versions (the latter may still
be available on the Freelance Traveller site).


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

------------------------------

Damn that was a good post Robert!  Kudos.  This one gets the CDR
treatment.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 23:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 13 22:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] JTAS question
Message-ID: <20020414.013949.-343735.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

Can someone summarize for me what is covered the article "A Traveller
Bibliography" in JTAS #8?



                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 00:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Apr 13 23:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Deadliness of combat
In-Reply-To: <20020413222116.A28871@4dv.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>; from rancke@diku.dk on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200
Message-ID: <3CB9C6FE.12042.25C89E@localhost>

On 13 Apr 2002, at 22:21, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> > Denmark's situation during the early years of occupation was
> > anomalous.  The Germans pretended that they were in Denmark merely
> > to protect us against attack by the Allies and that we were their
> > ally.  Consequently they were hampered in just what they could
> > 'request' the Danish government to do.

> ISTR that at one point the King of Denmark was arrested.  It took
> quite a bit of German military might to defeat retainers armed with
> quarter-staffs, pole-arms and swords.  Or is that another king I'm
> thinking of--or purely an urban legend?

I believe that what happened is that the Germans arrived just as the 
Royal Guard was conducting a full dress parade, so the Guards 
formed a double line and commenced disciplined volley fire (it must 
have looked like something straight out of the Napoleonic wars, 
only with bolt action rifles). This took the Germans somewhat by 
surprise and several were killed, but once they recovered from the 
initial shock, they started bringing up heavy weapons at which 
point the King ran out and ordered that the Guards surrender.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 00:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 23:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204140452.EAD01433@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DE7400.3A2DE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 9:52 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> The problem with an LNG tanker is that anyone with a .50 BMG
> rifle within 1 km can put a hole in one of the tanks.  It
> doesn't have to be a HE or HEI round.  But once that leak
> pops, there's a runaway sublimation effect that blows the
> tank open and then the whole ship goes.

Sublimation?  It is LNG right?  You have to have a solid transform directly
to a gas for it to be sublimation.

Carbon Dioxide ice sublimates.

Tod
(former Chemist) 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 01:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 00:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <F264Wf26myeOi1EkcZy0001ef51@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.233341.4R2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>      "Except Traveller fusion plants don't use the D-T reaction. They would 
> appear to use some form of p-p reaction."
>
>
> Mr. Erickson,
>
>      I know you've posted information on the p-p reaction many times before, 
> but could you do so again please?  I'd like to see what sort of particles 
> we'd be dealing with using that specific reaction.

The *overall* reaction is

4 H1 -> 1 He4

I don't recall the ways that (for example) the Bethe "solar phoenix"
reaction (which involves carbon as a catalyst) works. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 01:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 00:12:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <004701c1e367$1bb70380$705e8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20413.235758.2j2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: Leonard Erickson
>> But if you went to last week somewhere *else*, you'd have some
>> freedom, because you wouldn't *know* what the past was *there*.
>>
>> Check out Dr. Robert Forward's novel Timemaster for a wormhole based
>> FTL drive that allows time travel and complies with this sort of
>> restrictions.
>
> A week or two back I started working on an idea for a solo game.  It's since
> developed into a world design system for a non-OTU game.  I'm using a
> wormhole based FTL, as it allows you to use network/area mapping, and not
> bother with "uninteresting" systems.
>
> I'm going for a very abstract system, so fudges like this aren't a problem.
>
> (Memo to self: does "FTL radio" exist?)

Since Forward's book was published, further work was done on wormholes
and time travel.

It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
builds until it collapses the wormholes. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 03:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Apr 14 02:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of malfunction?
In-Reply-To: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020414114830.26705bd4.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical
office
> that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During
the
> investigation, the officer had walked into the MRI suite that magnetized
the
> pistol.

How would this kind of problem affect gauss/railgun type weapons?

Not that any PCs would try bringing any of them through security, mind
you...

 ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 06:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 05:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204141224.EAT00139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

VG9kIEdsZW5uIHNheXMNCj4NCj5TdWJsaW1hdGlvbj8gIEl0IGlzIExORyByaWdodD8gIFlv
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 06:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 05:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <200204141227.EAT00280@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

(Leonard Erickson)  says
>
>I don't recall the ways that (for example) the Bethe "solar 
>phoenix" reaction (which involves carbon as a catalyst) 
>works. 
>

I thought that the CNO cycle was a relatively "slow" rate 
reaction, even if it had a lower threshold to get started.

Also, isn't the p-p reaction the intended reaction for the 
Bussard ramjet?  I keep hearing that the p-p reaction is more 
difficult to start thant the D-T reaction.  And if we're 
going to make it so difficult, why not just use He-3?
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any
> upper limit
> ("that's no moon...")

Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
gravity well, and you misjump.

Net result : you can have a J6 planet. But no one can tell where its going.
Let's call it Heisenberg.

Regards

Andy Brick

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

ObTrav: Refueling in an oxygen atmosphere, of course.  

A liquified natural gas tanker poses a fire and explosion 
hazard.  Also, even though it is cryogenically cooled, a 
certain percentage of the tankage boils off every day.

I keep hearing people say that the fuel is carried in the 
form of liquid water and converted at the last minute.  This 
would seem to be inefficient, as a substantial portion of 
your tankage would not be usable fuel.  Liquid methane 
(liquified natural gas) might be a bit better than water, and 
probably what "unrefined" fuel from a gas giant would be.  
However, a significant proportion of the fuel would still not 
be hydrogen, unless the ship was using the CNO cycle.  
However, you don't need to keep putting carbon in the cycle, 
as it is reused.

Also, I have read several times in old Traveller works about 
the "L-Hyd" tank (which seems to say "liquid hydrogen" and 
not "water").  The description in the AHL supplement 
distinctly refers to the tankage on the Fuel Deck as "L-Hyd".

But I digress.  For optimum top-off, I think that refuelling 
would take place just prior to takeoff, in the same manner 
that they refuel the shuttle a few hours before takeoff. 

There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were 
topping off with LNG or L-Hyd.  If you were in atmosphere and 
someone scored a Fuel hit with a laser weapon, I'm betting 
that the ship's fuel tanks would explode.  What would have 
been a minor hit in space would be disastrous in atmosphere.  
See what happened to the fuel tank on the shuttle when the 
SRB played a flame on it.  One fuel hit in atmosphere and 
WHAM.

Also, I'm wondering what happens if the fuel tanks adjoin 
crew spaces, as they do in so many deck plans.  Let's say you 
depressurize before combat, and close bulkhead doors.  One 
compartment or more could be filled with fuel if the ship is 
hit in certain ways.  Equipment and personnel in these areas 
would be instantly destroyed/killed by cryogenic liquid.  

I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot 
of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and 
ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how 
it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only 
lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure - 
the fuel is subdivided into several large tanks, perhaps more 
on large combat vessels - but not on a small ship, which 
might have at most two separate tanks.  It would be hard to 
effectively pump fuel from a holed tank, if it was able to 
retain fuel at all after the hit.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>; from andy@exeus.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 01:59:26PM +0100
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 01:59:26PM +0100, Andy Brick wrote:
> 
> Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> gravity well, and you misjump.

Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
Betelgeuse.  So are you.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Mit den Frauen ist das wie mit den Firewalls: was [...] am meisten
Sicherheit garantiert und am wenigsten Probleme macht, ist immer das,
was zum speziellen Fall am besten passt.
                        --Urs Traenkner in de.comp.security.firewall

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An interesting product - anything like this in Traveller?
Message-ID: <200204141322.EAV00067@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

In any ship or vehicle design sequence, is there anything 
like this?  It seems to be an internal add-on that reduces 
the potential for internal explosions.

http://www.blastgard.net/outlook.asp

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:24:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:24:06 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
References: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c1e3b7$e7bc9260$52200050@matt>

> I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot
> of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and
> ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how
> it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only
> lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure -
> the fuel is subdivided into several large tanks, perhaps more
> on large combat vessels - but not on a small ship, which
> might have at most two separate tanks.  It would be hard to
> effectively pump fuel from a holed tank, if it was able to
> retain fuel at all after the hit.

How about self sealing linings around the tanks... the fuel loss is that
lost before the hole gets sealed...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting 
>a pull on Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>

Which made me dislike the "100 D" limit.  If I am at the 100 
D limit for Earth (at earth's distance from Sol, which has 
its own gravitational pull), what is the value of G?

Now let's compare that to the same value at 100 D from 
Jupiter.  I would bet that it's different.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <200204141331.EAV00387@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Matthew Bond" says
>
>How about self sealing linings around the tanks... the fuel 
>loss is that lost before the hole gets sealed...
>

On a cryogenic tank, no less.  Must be some of that 
Unobtanium lining the fuel tanks.

I think also, that we're probably talking about a fairly 
large spot size for ship laser weapons.  If they are anything 
like the planned SBL, the spot size will be around 1 foot.  
The hole in the fuel tank is likely to be larger, since the 
spot will move some.  And explosive missiles (if forged 
fragments, HEAT jets, or kinetic impactors) are going to make 
holes more than a few inches in diameter (or larger).  Self-
sealing only seems to work on modern aircraft fuel tanks for 
small non-explosive projectiles.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <F209IlOAPE3EzbwJp8k00003548@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBA2ECF.32620.8436A0@localhost>

On 13 Apr 2002 at 5:09, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      GURPS Compedium II has servicable rad rules.  IIRC, there are some MT 
> rules in a DGP Digest issue that deal with exposure rather exhaustively.

They're a bit messed up on what types of critters are most sensitive to 
radiation though, IIRC. Those rules have it that birds are something 
like 5 times _less_ sensitive to radiation than mammales, when AFAIK 
they're rather _more_ sensitive to radiation in RL.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEBPCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <3CBA30BC.19744.8BBA6A@localhost>

On 14 Apr 2002 at 11:47, Robert O'Connor wrote:

> iv. Damage to Fertility
> Reproductive cells are sensitive to radiation.
> Dose (rads)    Effect
> 150            Sterility for 1-6 weeks
> 250            Sterility for 1-2 years
> 500            Permanent sterility in 75%
> 800            Permanent sterility in 100%

Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
men, if you prefer)?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 08:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hullo

> > Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> > simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> > gravity well, and you misjump.
>
> Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
> Betelgeuse.  So are you.

But, unlike the Earth, the gravitational pull exerted by a human is not
sufficient to cause a misjump, which was my point.

I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.

A rough back of envelope calculation would be that the acceleration due to
gravity at 100 diameters is 2.43e-04 ms^-2. Given a body with the same
density as the Earth, then we're looking at 5.56g per cubic centimetre, or
5560 kg per cubic metre. This gives us a solid, uniform sphere 156 metres in
radius and with a mass of 8.841e10 kg, or a displacement tonnage of about
1,178,000 dTons. Hollow the sphere out and it would change things, but I'd
say that as a rough rule of thumb, a vessel with equivalent g at its surface
is never likely to reach its destination ...

Andy Brick


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 09:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr 14 08:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net>

Any update on T20?

Does anyone know when we are likely to see the 'offending' article ?

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 09:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Apr 14 08:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
 <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020414155356.08d6b44c.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Andy Brick wrote:
> Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> gravity well, and you misjump.
> 
> Net result : you can have a J6 planet. But no one can tell where its
going.
> Let's call it Heisenberg.

But all ships generate their own gravity wells...

Not of that magnitude, but still.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 10:35:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Apr 14 09:35:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Contact for Alvin Plummer?
Message-ID: <qibjbu0n0ieulkqta2ce6cslh5a727u1lf@4ax.com>

One of his articles on Freelance Traveller was slightly corrupted (on my
original, dammit!), and I need to talk to him to get the information needed
to uncorrupt it.  Can anyone pass me his address (off-list, please), or ask
him to contact me?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 10:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Apr 14 09:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <robjbu0fqnq6n9dnqt5e35f7a8qulahh5m@4ax.com>

On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 15:12:04 +0100, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
wrote:

>Hullo
>
>> > Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own =
gravity
>> > simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating =
inside a
>> > gravity well, and you misjump.
>>
>> Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
>> Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>
>But, unlike the Earth, the gravitational pull exerted by a human is not
>sufficient to cause a misjump, which was my point.
>
>I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
>Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.
>
>A rough back of envelope calculation would be that the acceleration due =
to
>gravity at 100 diameters is 2.43e-04 ms^-2. Given a body with the same
>density as the Earth, then we're looking at 5.56g per cubic centimetre, =
or
>5560 kg per cubic metre. This gives us a solid, uniform sphere 156 =
metres in
>radius and with a mass of 8.841e10 kg, or a displacement tonnage of =
about
>1,178,000 dTons. Hollow the sphere out and it would change things, but =
I'd
>say that as a rough rule of thumb, a vessel with equivalent g at its =
surface
>is never likely to reach its destination ...

Not that I'm up on the necessary math, but I would be interested in
the tidal force counterpart of these calculations.  I was very
impressed by the correspondence that was found between the tidal force
at 100 diameters and the effects which are described in Traveller.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 10:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sun Apr 14 09:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
In-Reply-To: <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEHLDKAA.tml@downport.com>

visit www.TravellerRPG.com for official T20 info... as to the offending
article, were you speaking of yourself or was it some sort of slight aimed
at a certain segment of Traveller players? :p

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Si

Any update on T20?

Does anyone know when we are likely to see the 'offending' article ?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Apr 14 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <F123KlnZcjKJXHC1gsW0000fa6c@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
men, if you prefer)?"


Mr. Boleyn,

     You are correct, sir.  Women never produce new eggs, they carry their 
lifetime supply with them at all times.  Men on the other hand continually 
produce new reproductive materials and must get rid of the older stuff to 
make room for the new.  That in itself explains quite a bit about male 
behavior.
     So, a female may be caring damaged genetic material if she had been 
exposed at ANY TIME during her life.  Males, due to their constant 
production of genetic material, only run the risk of donating damaged 
material if the exposure has been in the recent past.
     GURPS, in Compendium II, handles this in the following manner.  If a 
female has a lifetime dose of 250 rads, her offspring, and any problems they 
may have, are entirely at the GM's discretion.  If a male has recieved a 
dose of 100 rads within the last week, the same rule applies.
     A lfietime dose can be thought of as a running total of exposure that 
NEVER heals, it never goes away.  A female PC that recieved 25 seperate ten 
rad doses over several years of game time may have easily survived the 
effects of each of those exposures.  The burns, blood problems, and whatnot 
may be long behind her, but her lifetime dose is now 250 rads and any of her 
offspring are at the GM's mercy.
     Realistic?  Yes.  "Fair"?  No, but then again life is never fair.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 12:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Apr 14 11:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] landgrab questions
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEDOGHAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3CB9CF31.40F7C89F@mindspring.com>

John-Martin wrote:


> I've claimed Biter and was working on by landgrab and I have a few questions
>
> What is the fleet number for the Imperial Sword World subsector fleet?

Flipping open the rebellion source book we find........There is none. The
nearest is Lunion 43, or Vilis 193. Oddly I see Fleet 208 is assigned to all the
way over in Five sisters. But none in the Sword Worlds.

>
> Where is it headquartered?

See above

>
> What is Lunion's fleet number?

See above

>
> Does it help out imperial forces in the Sword Worlds?

We have no forces in the Sword Worlds. Those are just nasty rumors and Sword
Worlder propaganda. Please, have another drink and a narco stick. Enjoy the
music.



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 12:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Apr 14 11:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Terran/Vilani conflict (Was: Deadliness of combat)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140512410.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3CB9CF94.4CB5EF74@mindspring.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

Forbidden Canon.
???!




--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 14:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 13:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <200204142037.NAA19289@molly.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Also, I have read several times in old Traveller works about 
>the "L-Hyd" tank (which seems to say "liquid hydrogen" and 
>not "water").  The description in the AHL supplement 
>distinctly refers to the tankage on the Fuel Deck as "L-Hyd".

Canon is clearly liquid hydrogen.
>
>There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were 
>topping off with LNG or L-Hyd.  If you were in atmosphere and 
>someone scored a Fuel hit with a laser weapon, I'm betting 
>that the ship's fuel tanks would explode.

Nope, no oxygen.  The fuel leak will almost certainly ignite, however.
>been a minor hit in space would be disastrous in atmosphere.  
>See what happened to the fuel tank on the shuttle when the 
>SRB played a flame on it.  One fuel hit in atmosphere and 
>WHAM.

That's because of having both liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen, which
makes for a very nice bomb.

>Also, I'm wondering what happens if the fuel tanks adjoin 
>crew spaces, as they do in so many deck plans.  Let's say you 
>depressurize before combat, and close bulkhead doors.  One 
>compartment or more could be filled with fuel if the ship is 
>hit in certain ways.  Equipment and personnel in these areas 
>would be instantly destroyed/killed by cryogenic liquid.  

Fuel tanks are probably double-walled.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 14:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 14 13:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 09:26:52AM -0400
References: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020414144128.A5149@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 09:26:52AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> Which made me dislike the "100 D" limit.  If I am at the 100 
> D limit for Earth (at earth's distance from Sol, which has 
> its own gravitational pull), what is the value of G?
> 
> Now let's compare that to the same value at 100 D from 
> Jupiter.  I would bet that it's different.

I'd assume that the 100D limit must have nothing to do with gravity,
but instead have to do, somehow, with the actual physical size of an
object.  Perhaps physical objects imprint themselves in jump space,
but do to its properties they imprint a far larger area.  Or
something:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`When you wake up in the morning, Pooh,' said Piglet at last,
`what's the first thing you say to yourself?'
`What's for breakfast?' said Pooh. `What do you say, Piglet?'
`I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?' said Piglet.
Pooh nodded thoughtfully. `It's the same thing,' he said.
                                            --A.A. Milne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 14:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 14 13:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>; from andy@exeus.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 03:12:04PM +0100
References: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020414144249.B5149@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 03:12:04PM +0100, Andy Brick wrote:
> 
> I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
> Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.

I believe the rule is any object larger than 1/2 mile will trigger
jump precipation.  So someone needs to calculate the gravity of, say,
a 1/2 mile wide rocky body.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
It's better to have a weapon and not need it than to need a weapon and
not have it.                                     --Sir Clarence Worley

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-lethal weapons in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <B8B628F4.2D246%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20414.132135.5B6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 3/14/02 9:42 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>> The speed of sound is around 1200 m/s. That means that a 10 Hz sound
>> wave has a wavelngth of 120 meters. A quarter wavelength "antenna" is
>> going to be 30 meters.
>
> Oops.  I think you meant 330 m/s.  I wish it were 1200m/s.  It would make
> silencing rifles a lot easier.

Ok, I seem to have screwed up a step in converting from the figure I
could recall (mph) to the one I wanted (m/s).

> And does sound really propagate like radio waves?  It's really just SIT
> between air molecules.

It's a wave phenomenon. It has wavelength and the wavelength affects
how it propogates. Wavelengtyh, frequency and speed of propogation have
a *fixed* relationship.

I think it's 

L * f = v

L = wavelength
f = frequency
v = propogation velocity

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:02:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:02:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204141224.EAT00139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20414.133137.4r5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Care to resend this in *text* instead of base64 encoding?

In mail John T. Kwon writes:

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> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:02:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:02:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <200204141227.EAT00280@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20414.133330.3v1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> (Leonard Erickson)  says
>>
>>I don't recall the ways that (for example) the Bethe "solar 
>>phoenix" reaction (which involves carbon as a catalyst) 
>>works. 
>>
>
> I thought that the CNO cycle was a relatively "slow" rate 
> reaction, even if it had a lower threshold to get started.

In stars it takes a long time. In a fusion reactor that can run at
higher temps and pressures, who knows?

> Also, isn't the p-p reaction the intended reaction for the 
> Bussard ramjet?  I keep hearing that the p-p reaction is more 
> difficult to start thant the D-T reaction.  And if we're 
> going to make it so difficult, why not just use He-3?

p-p requires higher temperatures and pressures. But the fuel is so much
more abundant that if you can do it, it'd be *vastly* preferred.

Not only is helium-3 hard to accumulate, it's harder to store. Liquid
helium temps are something like two orders of magnitude harder to
maintain than liquid hydrogen temps (temperature differences are
logarithmic, not arithmetic. That is, what matters isn't the difference
in degrees, but rather the *ratio* of the abosolute temperatures. So
the difference between 4 K and 20 K is the "same" as the difference
between 300 K (room temp) and 1500 K (halfway between the melting
point of copper and that of iron))

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:03:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:03:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20414.134105.6N5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Robert A. Uhl" says
>>
>>Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting 
>>a pull on Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>
> Which made me dislike the "100 D" limit.  If I am at the 100 
> D limit for Earth (at earth's distance from Sol, which has 
> its own gravitational pull), what is the value of G?
>
> Now let's compare that to the same value at 100 D from 
> Jupiter.  I would bet that it's different.

At 100 diameters from a "rocky" type planet, the *tidal forces* will be
the same. That is, the rate of change of the strength of the gravity
field will match.

It's easy to show that any force that is the same at a given number of
*diameters* from a sphere of a given density has to be one that various
as the inverse *cube* of the distance. Which tidal forces do.

The tidal forces can also be thought of as representing how sharply
"curved" the space in that area is, which fits nicely with the jump
drive. If it is trying to "bend" space, then it's "obvious" that it'll
be more reliable if it isn't fighting the bends that already exist.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:03:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:03:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20414.134634.3h0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any
>> upper limit
>> ("that's no moon...")
>
> Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> gravity well, and you misjump.

*Everything* generates its own gravity field. 

So ships have to correct for self gravity (and possibily for their
internal gravity fields as well) anyway. A planet-ship would just have
to make bigger corrections.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:04:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hullo
>
>> > Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
>> > simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
>> > gravity well, and you misjump.
>>
>> Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
>> Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>
> But, unlike the Earth, the gravitational pull exerted by a human is not
> sufficient to cause a misjump, which was my point.
>
> I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
> Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.

Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
todal forces are the same.

Inverse *cube* law.

> A rough back of envelope calculation would be that the acceleration due to
> gravity at 100 diameters is 2.43e-04 ms^-2.

And the tidal forces are 

a/l = G*M /r^3

a = acceleration
l = distance for center of object experiencing tidal forces
G = Newton's gravitational constant
M = mass of object exerting tidal forces
r = distance from center of object exerting tidal forces.

I suspect that you'll find that the forces involved at 100 diameters
from Earth are similar to those at the hull of a fairly small ship.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:04:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:04:37 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <003a01c1e3b7$e7bc9260$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20414.135536.3A4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot
>> of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and
>> ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how
>> it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only
>> lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure -
>> the fuel is subdivided into several large tanks, perhaps more
>> on large combat vessels - but not on a small ship, which
>> might have at most two separate tanks.  It would be hard to
>> effectively pump fuel from a holed tank, if it was able to
>> retain fuel at all after the hit.
>
> How about self sealing linings around the tanks... the fuel loss is that
> lost before the hole gets sealed...

And *how* are they going to self-seal? Liquid hydrogen is at 20 Kelvin.
(20 centrigrade degress above absolute zero, around -424 F)

*Any* lining is going to be frozen solid at that temp. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <20414.133330.3v1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020414213134.EB02127A53@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/14/02 at 01:33 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
said:

>> Also, isn't the p-p reaction the intended reaction for the 
>> Bussard ramjet?  I keep hearing that the p-p reaction is more 
>> difficult to start thant the D-T reaction.  And if we're 
>> going to make it so difficult, why not just use He-3?

>p-p requires higher temperatures and pressures. But the fuel is so
>much more abundant that if you can do it, it'd be *vastly* preferred.

>Not only is helium-3 hard to accumulate, it's harder to store. Liquid
>helium temps are something like two orders of magnitude harder to
>maintain than liquid hydrogen temps (temperature differences are
>logarithmic, not arithmetic. That is, what matters isn't the
>difference in degrees, but rather the *ratio* of the abosolute
>temperatures. So the difference between 4 K and 20 K is the "same" as
>the difference between 300 K (room temp) and 1500 K (halfway between
>the melting point of copper and that of iron))

My favorite, non-standard, fusion reaction is p-B(11). Boron-11 isn't
*all* that rare, and with the advanced plasma, magnetic and gravitic
controls of the TU it should be quite doable.  This reaction results
in almost no hard radiation, and electricity can be directly drawn off
the resultant charged particles.  

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help Needed
In-Reply-To: <B8B62CD4.2D26D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20414.140952.0s8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 3/14/02 9:16 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>>> get me one of those nifty adapter cards for that if I understand
>>> 'hot-swappable' correctly).
>> 
>> Mine isn't hot-swappable either.
>> 
>> Though I have to note that with IDE that's a tall order to start with.
>> With SCSI it's a bit easier.
>> 
>> The big problem is that the OS may not recognize the swap.
>
> If it's truly hot swappable, that means you are running some kind of RAID,
> too.  I remember seeing the shocked expression on the face of a brang new
> tech when I blithely yanked the drive out of out Resilient server. Just for
> yucks I pulled a processor too.  This while the machine was happily serving
> files, routing email and all that king of good stuff.

With some OSes you can swap a drive while the system is running, you
just have to do a "dismount" before pulling the drive and a "Mount"
after putting in a replacement.

When I finally get my Netware server upgraded I'll be doing that
occasionally with a tape drive or a scsi drive in a mobile rack.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:05:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:05:23 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020415080419.A22995@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I keep hearing people say that the fuel is carried in the form of
> liquid water and converted at the last minute.

I think you keep hearing just *me* :)


>  This would seem to be inefficient, as a substantial portion of your
> tankage would not be usable fuel.

Tankage *mass*, yes.  However, water has 50% more hydrogen per unit
*volume* than does liquid hydrogen.  As an additional bonus, it is
*much* easier to store.  As a further bonus again, you can drink it,
and breathe the "waste" after refining.

Since ship operating costs are directly proportional to volume (not
mass), this works out much more efficient.  However, it will reduce
acceleration on full tanks somewhat.


>  Liquid methane (liquified natural gas) might be a bit better than
> water,

Except that it is harder to store, more hazardous, no use in life
support, less plentiful, and the waste (carbon) is much less useful.
The same applies to ammonia.  It turns out that the best figure for
hydrogen per unit volume (for common substances) is a highly
concentrated ammonia solution.  The waste product from the refining
process is an oxygen / nitrogen mix.  However it's much worse from a
handling point of view, and you can't just suck it up from oceans or
ice moonlets.


> Also, I have read several times in old Traveller works about 
> the "L-Hyd" tank (which seems to say "liquid hydrogen" and 
> not "water").

It does.

In my ship designs, ships still have a LHyd tank, because the jump
drives need a *lot* of pure hydrogen really fast when entering jump;
far more than a fuel refiner can deliver in such a short period of
time.  Canon is unfortunately unclear as to *how much* fuel used by
jump is consumed right at the start, and the subject is a recurring
"hot topic" (look up "drop tanks" or "Annic Nova" in the archives for
a sample).  IMTU, initiating jump requires about 1-5% of the ship's
volume in jump fuel, the same again on re-entry, with the rest
consumed slowly during jump.  The last can be delivered by refiners
from water tanks, and provides the crew with breathing air and
drinking water.


> There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were topping
> off with LNG or L-Hyd.

No -- there's nothing for it to burn with if you're fuelling at an
up-port dock, and even many planets have insufficient oxygen to
support a flame.  There would be a cryogenic hazard though,
particularly with LHyd.


> See what happened to the fuel tank on the shuttle when the 
> SRB played a flame on it.  One fuel hit in atmosphere and 
> WHAM.

That's because the shuttle contains huge amounts of cryogenic
propellant *and* oxidiser, in a convenient ready-to-mix form.


> One compartment or more could be filled with fuel if the ship is hit
> in certain ways.  Equipment and personnel in these areas would be
> instantly destroyed/killed by cryogenic liquid.

Yep -- cryogenic liquids are dangerous.  And of course a *minor*
internal hydrogen leak could cause a fire once you reintroduce oxygen.


> I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot 
> of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and 
> ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how 
> it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only 
> lose a small percentage of the fuel.

That's what I assume.  You don't want a big open tank of liquid in the
ship when you're doing 6g maneuvers and rapid rotations, either --
even liquids as light as LHyd have a *lot* of mass in large volumes.
So IMTU fuel tankage is heavily compartmentalised even on small ships.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:05:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:05:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Terran/Vilani conflict (Was: Deadliness of combat)
In-Reply-To: <3CB9CF94.4CB5EF74@mindspring.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140512410.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020414145753.009e8ae0@mindspring.com>

At 02:51 PM 4/14/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>
>Forbidden Canon.
>???!

Stuff published by Digest Group.  I'm not getting into that mud patch 
again, but suffice it to say that the owner of the copyright wants a 
ridiculous amount of money for it, and as a result, those of us writing for 
Traveller have to avoid things that appeared solely in DGP books and magazines.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020415081233.B22995@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> And the tidal forces are 
> a/l = G*M /r^3

If we use T for tide and rho for density, then a spherical body
induces a tidal stretching of
 T = 2 G rho (r/R)^3.

This more clearly shows that for a body of given density, the tidal
strength depends only on the ratio of diameter to distance.


> I suspect that you'll find that the forces involved at 100 diameters
> from Earth are similar to those at the hull of a fairly small ship.

So the size of the ship is irrelevant -- what matters is its density.
Suffice it to say that every ship in Traveller has amply more than
enough density to give a higher tidal force at 1 diameter than Earth
does at 10 diameters, let alone 100D.

Apparently only ships larger than 1km will actually precipitate other
ships out from jump, but I suspect ships entering jump should indeed
use the normal misjump rules for proximity to any other body
comparable in size to their own.  (You don't want a speck of dust to
cause a misjump :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-lethal weapons in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1016132100.8505.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20414.163834.3i9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>> 
>> And my "sodium grenades" will tend to seal the edges of the plastic to
>> the helmet.
>
> If you can reliably spray enough sodium to cause a problem, you can also
> probably hit them with a comparable amount of high explosive and kill them
> outright.

In a vacuum, you don't have to "spray". The atoms essentially travel in
straight lines from the dispenser until they hit something. At which
point they stop. 

It doesn't take a very thick coating (a few atoms thick) to make it
hard to so, and hard for the cooling system on your space suit to get
rid of the heat you are building up.

In a vacuum, high eplosives are much less effective, because they don't
have air to conduct the shock. All they have to ork with is the gases
they produce themselves. And a blast strong enough to cause trouble is
strong enough to damage gear in the compartment. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:26:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:26:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
References: <20020414132903.D582627B44@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c1e414$9dbef1a0$bdb18b90@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
> closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
> travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
> builds until it collapses the wormholes.

No surprises there.  And of course, since the possibility to use them for
FTL implies the possibility of using them for time travel, you can't use
them for FTL, etc.

Fortunately, we are dealing with science fiction, not real life, so this
analysis is hereby declared to be incomplete.  This also explains why "FTL
radio" isn't possible.  Oh, and traversing wormholes takes about 170 hours
or so, too.  : )

Incidentally, Yaskoydray definitely could have time travel.  Creating pocket
universes implies being able to do really, really interesting things to
space-time.  In fact, it might be possible to travel from the MT/TNE
universe to the GT one.  IMTU, Avery did!  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
Message-ID: <200204150043.RAA22864@molly.iii.com>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:

>From: Leonard Erickson
>> It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
>> closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
>> travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
>> builds until it collapses the wormholes.
>
>No surprises there.  And of course, since the possibility to use them for
>FTL implies the possibility of using them for time travel, you can't use
>them for FTL, etc.

Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.

In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
wormholes have to share a reference frame.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEAIDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
> and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
> (assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
> todal forces are the same.

(Tries it in Excel - ) Neat trick - hadn't seen this before - though I
suspect it only works because I used a  uniform density, and since that
won't be the case in the "real" (read:more random/realistic simulation of
the) universe, then using tidal forces as a basis for misjumps will vary the
rule either side of 100 diameters - for example, raise the density, and the
100 diameter limit drops to ninety something diameters.

But it doesn't really matter what causes the misjump effect. The fact
remains that a given mass will cause some form of gravitational effect that
invokes a misjump, and when you build a starship of that mass it should be
affected by its own gravitational effect - and hence misjump.

The maths/details don't really matter here - the concept is the thing. There
should be an upper limit of some kind on starship size imposed by the
misjump rule.

Andy B.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.346 / Virus Database: 194 - Release Date: 10/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com>

"Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com> writes:

>But it doesn't really matter what causes the misjump effect. The fact
>remains that a given mass will cause some form of gravitational effect that
>invokes a misjump, and when you build a starship of that mass it should be
>affected by its own gravitational effect - and hence misjump.

Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external fields.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 18:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
> trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
> to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external fields.

Or, that misjumps are poorly thought out.

They don't work if you use g, the gravitational field acceleration because
it varies so much.
They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
themselves.

So, has anyone got a better explanation of why 100 diameters, 10 diameters
etc are so very bad ?

Andy B


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.346 / Virus Database: 194 - Release Date: 10/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 19:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 18:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020415114537.A23557@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Brick wrote:
> They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
> themselves.

Isn't that what the jump grid is for; making sure that everything
contained within it is properly prepared for jump?  I would not be at
all surprised if part of the function of the grid was to cancel the
gravity due to the mass of the ship.  Gravity from external objects
can't be cancelled because you don't have a grid surrounding them.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 19:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Apr 14 18:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEHDCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Ortillery?
>
>I saw it in Dirtside, a game to go with Full Thrust.
>
>But I may have seen it in an SF novel before.

I think it's in Hammer's Slammers, by David Drake -- but it may even have
appeared in Gordon Dickson's Dorsai books.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 20:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sun Apr 14 19:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of malfunction?
References: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com> <20020414114830.26705bd4.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <DAV40aODv8h1ccBHuGI0000737d@hotmail.com>

> How would this kind of problem affect gauss/railgun type weapons?

<shrug>  Some earlier gauss weapon discussion seemed to indicate that GWs
would have to be pretty heavily shielded.  So maybe nothing.


> Not that any PCs would try bringing any of them through security, mind
> you...

Good heavens, no! <g>

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Sun Apr 14 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020413200302.009ee460@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CBA3FFD.3090802@yarranet.net.au>

Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll 
never get my Tigress at this rate.


Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 20:55:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Apr 14 19:55:06 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEHDCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Also, I'm wondering what happens if the fuel tanks adjoin
>crew spaces, as they do in so many deck plans.  Let's say you
>depressurize before combat, and close bulkhead doors.  One
[deletion]
>I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot
>of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and
>ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how
>it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only
>lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure -

I usually design deck plans with a fuel envelope around the ship.  That
accounts for the large number of fuel hits in High Guard.  I assume that the
fuel tank is divided into ten compartments of equal volume, so that each
fuel hit blows a hole in one or more compartments.

If you get both internal explosion and fuel hit results, the problem you
describe may occur.  In a High Guard fleet action, I wouldn't worry about
it, but I will take your suggestion to heart in the case of combat involving
a ship with the PCs, or a ship that they encounter.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 21:13:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Apr 14 20:13:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134634.3h0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
 <20414.134634.3h0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020415031235.2864d227.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> *Everything* generates its own gravity field. 
> 
> So ships have to correct for self gravity (and possibily for their
> internal gravity fields as well) anyway. A planet-ship would just have
> to make bigger corrections.

Semi-scientifical handwave follows:

The jump grid acts in a manner similiar to an electrical potential cage
(kind of like grounding the ship to a known neutral potential). Thus, the
ship itself doesn't disturb the jump drive's operation. Other objects,
however, aren't grounded in this fashion, and do disturb it, causing
misjumps etc.

Think of the disturbance as a lightning bolt hitting a metal cage (but
from the inside of the cage/ship). The discharge travels along the cage
(jump grid), but doesn't pass through it.

Comments?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 21:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr 14 20:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CBA3FFD.3090802@yarranet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20020415032922.5193B27A6E@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:

>Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll 
>never get my Tigress at this rate.

Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
level) per month!  <g>


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 22:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Apr 14 21:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>

On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 02:06:05 +0100, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
wrote:

>> Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
>> trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
>> to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external =
fields.
>
>Or, that misjumps are poorly thought out.
>
>They don't work if you use g, the gravitational field acceleration =
because
>it varies so much.
>They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
>themselves.
><SNIP>

Are you certain that traditional Traveller ships will create a tidal
force equivalent to a planet at 10 or even 100 diameters?  I was under
the impression that their mass wasn't sufficient to generate that
level of tidal force.  Further, I wouldn't think a body could exert
tidal force upon itself.

I would welcome anyone doing the math to demonstrate where the tidal
force associated with a planet's 10 diameter or 100 diameter limit
would fall for 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000 ton ships.
If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force upon
itself (and I do doubt that greatly), do these tidal gradients fall
outside a thus displacement sphere (the minimum surface area)?

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 22:26:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 14 21:26:09 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415032922.5193B27A6E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/14/02 8:29 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

> On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:
> 
>> Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll
>> never get my Tigress at this rate.
> 
> Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
> level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
> low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
> level) per month!  <g>

Which makes a steward a well paid individual indeed.  That's about
$140,160/year in adjusted dollars.  The Pilot is raking in about 210 grand a
year in 2002 US dollars.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 23:04:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 22:04:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> I would welcome anyone doing the math to demonstrate where the tidal
> force associated with a planet's 10 diameter or 100 diameter limit
> would fall for 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000 ton ships.

I'll assume that the 100D limit corresponds to a tidal tension
of 4e-13 s^-2, and hence that the 10D gradient is 4e-10 s^-2.

Let us suppose that each ship is spherical with an average density of
500 kg/m^3 (i.e. about 7 tonnes/dton).

Displacement  Diameter  Mass    10D limit  100D limit
(dtons)       (m)       (Mg)    (m)        (m)
100           13.8      685     61.1       611
1000          29.7      6850    131.7      1317
10000         64.0      68500   283.8      2838
100000        138       685000  611.4      6114

As you can see, the hull surface is far inside the 10D limit.

The formulae are pretty simple: mass = density * volume,
volume = pi D^3 / 6  for a sphere,
T = 2 G M / R^3.


> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force
> upon itself

You are.  This is very important in determining Roche's limit, for
example.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 23:15:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr 14 22:15:12 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/14/02 at 09:24 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 4/14/02 8:29 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

>> On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:
>> 
>>> Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll
>>> never get my Tigress at this rate.
>> 
>> Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
>> level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
>> low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
>> level) per month!  <g>

>Which makes a steward a well paid individual indeed.  That's about
>$140,160/year in adjusted dollars.  The Pilot is raking in about 210
>grand a year in 2002 US dollars.

Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
OTU games.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 23:49:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 22:49:11 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
> OTU games.

You don't think it makes sense that people from highly technologically
advanced societies are richer than modern-day Earthlings?  Especially
starship crew, who have to live in cramped conditions in a hostile
environment for weeks at a time?

Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
than bus drivers.  And people in the US generally get paid a lot more
than people in most other countries for comparable occupations.  So to
my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from high-tech
societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20414.230338.5J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 02:06:05 +0100, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
>>> trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
>>> to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external =
> fields.
>>
>>Or, that misjumps are poorly thought out.
>>
>>They don't work if you use g, the gravitational field acceleration =
> because
>>it varies so much.
>>They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
>>themselves.
>><SNIP>
>
> Are you certain that traditional Traveller ships will create a tidal
> force equivalent to a planet at 10 or even 100 diameters?  I was under
> the impression that their mass wasn't sufficient to generate that
> level of tidal force.  Further, I wouldn't think a body could exert
> tidal force upon itself.

No, but tidal force is a (effectively) a measure of how severely space
is curved. 

Acceleration due to gravity is the "slope" of the gravity well. Tidal
forces are the rate at which the slop changes.

> I would welcome anyone doing the math to demonstrate where the tidal
> force associated with a planet's 10 diameter or 100 diameter limit
> would fall for 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000 ton ships.
> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force upon
> itself (and I do doubt that greatly), do these tidal gradients fall
> outside a thus displacement sphere (the minimum surface area)?

The problem is that we need to know the *mass* of the ship, not the
displacement. A "100 ton" ship occupies the same *volume* as 100 tons
of liquid hydrogen. It may mass more or less.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:15:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:15:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEAIDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20414.225006.1X5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>> and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>> (assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>> todal forces are the same.
>
> (Tries it in Excel - ) Neat trick - hadn't seen this before - though I
> suspect it only works because I used a  uniform density, and since that
> won't be the case in the "real" (read:more random/realistic simulation of
> the) universe, then using tidal forces as a basis for misjumps will vary the
> rule either side of 100 diameters - for example, raise the density, and the
> 100 diameter limit drops to ninety something diameters.

Thing is, the density of "rocky" planets (as opposed to gas giants and
the iceballs you find in the outer system) is pretty uniform. 

And for gas giants and iceballs the "critical" tidal force level would
occur well *within* 100 diameters. 

So if there's any sort of safety factor built in to the "100 diameter"
rule, it'll work fine except in *really* oddball situations (say trying
to jump close to a *big* nickel-iron asteroid).

> But it doesn't really matter what causes the misjump effect. The fact
> remains that a given mass will cause some form of gravitational effect that
> invokes a misjump, and when you build a starship of that mass it should be
> affected by its own gravitational effect - and hence misjump.
>
> The maths/details don't really matter here - the concept is the thing. There
> should be an upper limit of some kind on starship size imposed by the
> misjump rule.

The details *do* matter, because the forces at the *hull* of even a
small ship will *exceed* those from a planet at 100 diameters. That's a
*unavoidable*. 

So a ship *has* to be able to compensate for the forces generated by
its own mass.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:15:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:15:55 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020415080419.A22995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20414.231128.0e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>  Liquid methane (liquified natural gas) might be a bit better than
>> water,
>
> Except that it is harder to store, more hazardous, no use in life
> support, less plentiful, and the waste (carbon) is much less useful.
> The same applies to ammonia.  It turns out that the best figure for
> hydrogen per unit volume (for common substances) is a highly
> concentrated ammonia solution.  The waste product from the refining
> process is an oxygen / nitrogen mix.  However it's much worse from a
> handling point of view, and you can't just suck it up from oceans or
> ice moonlets.

Actually, if you are out at the distance of saturn or farther, that
"ice" is apt to be a mix of ammonia, methane and water.

>> There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were topping
>> off with LNG or L-Hyd.
>
> No -- there's nothing for it to burn with if you're fuelling at an
> up-port dock, and even many planets have insufficient oxygen to
> support a flame.  There would be a cryogenic hazard though,
> particularly with LHyd.

Well, liquid hydrogen doesn't respond well to large inputs of energy
either. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:16:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <004d01c1e414$9dbef1a0$bdb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <20414.231508.7E7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: Leonard Erickson
>> It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
>> closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
>> travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
>> builds until it collapses the wormholes.
>
> No surprises there.  And of course, since the possibility to use them for
> FTL implies the possibility of using them for time travel, you can't use
> them for FTL, etc.

Not necessarily. 

There are lots of FTL trips you can take without having actually
transfer of things or information into someone's past. 

You just have to be careful. And it does make it easy to shut down a
wormhole (or a series of them) if you are desperate.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20414.231128.0e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415080419.A22995@freeman.little-possums.net> <20414.231128.0e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020415175248.A24097@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, if you are out at the distance of saturn or farther, that
> "ice" is apt to be a mix of ammonia, methane and water.

Yes, quite true.  Water is more prevalent further in, which I would
guess is where ships are more likely to want to go.  Most spacecraft
in my Traveller universe don't scoop gas giants for hydrogen unless
really desperate; they either slurp it up from oceans or grab it from
icy moons or other bodies.  Sometimes that means throwing away excess
methane and ammonia because they don't have appropriate type of
tankage to hold it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 07:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon Apr 15 06:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CBAD3C8.FEAB4008@attbi.com>


Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
> than bus drivers.  

Um, no they don't. Maybe half if the drivers aren't unionized.

> And people in the US generally get paid a lot more
> than people in most other countries for comparable occupations.  

Oh so true, even more so here in the Peoples Republic of California.

> So to
> my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from high-tech
> societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.

Yah, but like most Mariners today most of that wage comes from
overtime.

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 08:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Apr 15 07:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226C0@USCHM203>

Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term =
>"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
>  =20
> The origin is bugging me....

It definitely goes back to at least the mid to late 80s. I thought that I
might have first seen it in "Striker", which would be around 1981 or so, but
I could be mistaken. As someone else mentioned, the term might have appeared
in a sci-fi novel even earlier.

Brian L. Hurrel
ICS Analyst
EDS
(973) 682-5578


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CBAD3C8.FEAB4008@attbi.com>; from wmacdude@attbi.com on Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 06:21:12AM -0700
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net> <3CBAD3C8.FEAB4008@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20020415092359.A9480@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 06:21:12AM -0700, Evyn MacDude wrote:
> 
> > Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
> > than bus drivers.  

In Denver a driver starts at $12.xx and hour--let's say $13.  They
probably work less than 8 hours a day, but let's say they do.  That's
$104/day, or $540/wk.  Assuming two unpaid weeks of vacation a year,
that's $26,000/yr.  What's the starting rate for a submariner?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism
to decadence without touching civilization.               --John O'Hara

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <001e01c1e492$a431a680$1f9e15ac@warrior>

Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for those kinds of
speciallized skills... I mean how much does a Airliner pilot make now
days...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Little" <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 1:47 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?


> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> > Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
> > OTU games.
>
> You don't think it makes sense that people from highly technologically
> advanced societies are richer than modern-day Earthlings?  Especially
> starship crew, who have to live in cramped conditions in a hostile
> environment for weeks at a time?
>
> Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
> than bus drivers.  And people in the US generally get paid a lot more
> than people in most other countries for comparable occupations.  So to
> my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from high-tech
> societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.
>
>
> - Tim
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:43:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:43:06 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415092359.A9480@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEIJDKAA.tml@downport.com>

Or how about: what is the full-package cost for an experienced, commercial
submarine officer?

Hmm...

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Robert A. Uhl

In Denver a driver starts at $12.xx and hour--let's say $13.  They
probably work less than 8 hours a day, but let's say they do.  That's
$104/day, or $540/wk.  Assuming two unpaid weeks of vacation a year,
that's $26,000/yr.  What's the starting rate for a submariner?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:43:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:43:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

Maybe I'm just too scientifically dumb to follow the
conversation and am therefore saying the same thing
that has already been said, but...

Doesn't a starship (or Jump enabled planet for that
matter) exert gravity inward to it's center?  Isn't
that a different force than the planet or ship or GG
or Star that is closer than 100D?

I always thought the 100D gravity (or whatever) limit
as being more of a sheering force on the Jumping
vessel.  The vessels internal gravity (or whatever)
just isn't sheering on itself.

I'm not all that scientific in these areas, so I may
be wrong or completely invalid, but that is my
handwave. :)

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 10:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Mon Apr 15 09:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <F209D689cMhtTYDGGfA000197d5@hotmail.com>

One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
than they pay out in claims.

If you are a large enough organization, like a Mega-Corp,
then your insurable losses from any particular event should
be low enough (as a percentage of your total income) that it
will be a better option for you to absorb the losses as they
occur rather than continuously pay out insurance premiums.
You'll "self-insure", by keeping cash on hand enough to cover emergencies 
and accidents.  This is a good way for a large
enough company to do business, since this "cash on hand",
while it's on hand, can be earning for the company while
insurance premiums are gone.

If a catastrophe happens that destroys more value of your
megacorp assets than you would have been paying out in
insurance premiums, then chances are a war caused it - and
insurance companies are noted for not paying out claims
on damage caused by acts of war anyway.

So, you'll have two tiers of starship out there.  The
small or independent operator, who buys insurance (since a
single event will likely put him out of business otherwise).
The large corp, which may self-insure (that is, put money
aside to cover replacement, rather than pay out premiums).

If most of a starport's traffic is megacorp vessels,
then that starport won't have the insurance industry
involved as much with starport safety requirements.
The megacorp may have to post a bond of some sort, but
this bond may be a trivial formality if the megacorp
is in bed with the local starport authority...which they
probably will be, the megacorp likely built the bed,
washed the linens and hired the nubile young bedwarmers.

The small independent operator may have to post a bond
of sorts to gain access to a starport as well.  This bond
may well be posted by the independent operator's insurance
carrier on behalf of all the carrier's clients, with the
insurance carrier requiring operators to meet certain
safety guidelines to get coverage and access to the bond.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 10:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon Apr 15 09:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
Message-ID: <OF79538278.A1B0E48C-ON85256B9C.005AE8D9@pheaa.org>

has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a line at
wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.

thanks

Bill


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 10:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 09:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
Message-ID: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Here I go again. Please don't kill me  :-)

Right now I'm adding population generation to my script.

Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake  ;-)

"That's no moon"

I could see people turning a small moon into swiss cheese and living in
it, but at that point it will cease to be a moon and begin to be a space
station built using an asteroid hull.

Are there any good reasons not to use asteroids or small moons as hulls
for space stations? It would be a lot cheaper, and easier to expand (to a
certain limit). Just dig a few more tunnels.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204151701.ECX05851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Christopher Pratt says
>
>Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for 
>those kinds of speciallized skills... I mean how much does a 
>Airliner pilot make now days...
>
It's not as though a pilot today has to know as much as they 
used to.  Celestial navigation? LORAN? Dead reckoning? Nope.  
If you can use a GPS and know how to use the flight computer, 
it's just not as difficult as it used to be.  In fact, 
there's a lot to the handling of current aircraft that is 
done by the computer. It "helps" you, and you don't even 
notice that it's doing so.

Mostly, pilots are there to try and land the plane if 
something goes wrong.  There is little technical reason at 
this point why we could not design pilotless aircraft - in 
fact, there are compelling safety reasons to do so.  There 
are some FAA people I talked to who say that sometime in the 
next 20 years, they are going to try and fully automate 
everything from takeoff to landing (some aircraft are already 
capable of this).  At that point, it is questionable what you 
would need a pilot for.  He would be a glorified bus driver.

ObTrav:  What is a pilot, anyway?  Doesn't a pilot largely 
perform naviagational tasks?  In movies, yeah, fighter pilot 
city - just like WW II (image of Leia pointing and 
saying "star destroyer" -- good thing we spent all that money 
on radar when she can just point out the window).  But IMTU - 
well, there's an ability to takeoff and land, but in major 
starports, that could be automated.  Docking maneuvers?  Once 
again, probably safer if automated.  A pilot is -- really a 
coordinator -- making all of the ship's systems work 
together, and making decisions about where to go and how.

Like a navigator, with wings.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018890322.7515.ajackson@ping>

Jens Rydholm writes:
> Here I go again. Please don't kill me  :-)
> 
> Right now I'm adding population generation to my script.
> 
> Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
> than 100 miles to have a population?

Well, in habitats sure.  Thermal effects put a practical limit of around a
million people times diameter squared (and the moon will glow in infrared), 
but that's not terribly limiting.

> Are there any good reasons not to use asteroids or small moons as hulls
> for space stations? It would be a lot cheaper, and easier to expand (to a
> certain limit). Just dig a few more tunnels.

Well, you want a solid asteroid as opposed to a gravel pile, but given that
traveller has gravetics for artificial gravity, it's practical enough.  Doubt
that the cost differences would be huge, however.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <F68hRaUMNGCXWGmQyt500005973@hotmail.com>

From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>

     "In Denver a driver starts at $12.xx and hour--let's say $13.  They
probably work less than 8 hours a day, but let's say they do.  That's
$104/day, or $540/wk.  Assuming two unpaid weeks of vacation a year,
that's $26,000/yr.  What's the starting rate for a submariner?"


Mr. Uhl,

     Good point, and let's not forget benefits.  Most employers who  don't 
provide benefits tend to pay slightly higher salaries.  Please note, I'm 
talking about skilled positions in this context and not minimum wage 
Wal-Mart meat puppets.
     Give Mr. Kramden above a family medical policy, a dental plan, life 
insurance, and employer contributions to a 401(K) and/or pension plan, and 
his "earnings" increase by another $10,000/yr or so.
     The "March Harrier" and her ilk are not going to provide any of these 
"bennies" at all.  In order to compete in the same labor market as the 
mega-corps, smaller outfits will offer slightly higher salaries.
     The Wal-Marts of the future will still have the upper hand when it 
comes to hiring floor moppers however.(If we still waste human labor on such 
tasks that is.)  Just like today, Wal-Mart's inclusion of benefits in their 
compensation package will keep their supply of min-wage types bountiful as 
opposed to the corner "Quik-E-Mart."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <F55WYIgoFT3kMUVfNIJ0000272d@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>Mostly, pilots are there to try and land the plane if
>something goes wrong.  There is little technical reason at
>this point why we could not design pilotless aircraft - in
>fact, there are compelling safety reasons to do so.  There
>are some FAA people I talked to who say that sometime in the
>next 20 years, they are going to try and fully automate
>everything from takeoff to landing (some aircraft are already
>capable of this).  At that point, it is questionable what you
>would need a pilot for.  He would be a glorified bus driver.

I have read where the F-22 is described as the Air Force's "last" manned 
fighter.

Also, apparently the thing that replaced the SR71 is not manned.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204151758.ECZ05255@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>
>I have read where the F-22 is described as the Air 
>Force's "last" manned fighter.
>
>Also, apparently the thing that replaced the SR71 is not 
>manned.
>

In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your 
starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local 
stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au> <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>

Si wrote:

> Any update on T20?
>
> Does anyone know when we are likely to see the 'offending' article ?
>
> Si
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

oops,

I sincerely apologise to everyone involved in the T20 project.  My
forgetting to include a 'smiley' totally changed the emphasis of the
message and made it seem negative.  IT WAS NOT MEANT TO BE, as I am
really looking forward to T20.  for those of you who are not aware of
the Open Gaming licence, using the d20 system means that everything is
(to a significant degree) interchangeable.  This means that (with only a
little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.

:-)

Si




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <F209D689cMhtTYDGGfA000197d5@hotmail.com>
References: <F209D689cMhtTYDGGfA000197d5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020415201231.2a376fbc.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Walt Smith wrote:
> One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
> only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
> than they pay out in claims.
<snip>

A very nice post indeed. I don't really have anything to add, but I'll
just note that the post didn't disappear in the dreaded black hole of
quality. It was archived on my harddrive  :-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
In-Reply-To: <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
 <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net> <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <20020415201431.3145d14b.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Si wrote:
> little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
> them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
> terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.

Kind of like GURPS  ;-)

I am also just kidding. I probably won't purchase the main T20 book, but
one can never have too much background material  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
Message-ID: <OF66D276C9.2DAD1A83-ON85256B9C.006477EE@pheaa.org>





<snip>
> little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
> them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
> terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.
</snip>

Im really looking forward to this. i got an order in at my FLGS already 8)

Bill






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
Message-ID: <200204151824.EDB00561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm just hoping for a better skill resolution system (hoping 
for a better combat system may be a forlorn one).
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <200204151824.EDB00561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB1C87.D6550A25@virgin.net>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> I'm just hoping for a better skill resolution system (hoping
> for a better combat system may be a forlorn one).
> ________________
> "Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

The skill systems should be (AFAIK) similar to that of 3e.  Namely a
skill modifier is equal to the number of ranks you have bought in a
skill plus a modifier based upon the skills determining characteristic.

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An interesting product - anything like this in Traveller?
References: <200204141322.EAV00067@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB1D32.5000002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> In any ship or vehicle design sequence, is there anything 
> like this?  It seems to be an internal add-on that reduces 
> the potential for internal explosions.
> 
> http://www.blastgard.net/outlook.asp

This is probably part of the composite hull material, which does start 
to appear at TL8-9...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:35:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:35:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a
 starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV14LEGhUOjO0L6WkQ00004c57@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020411151634.0209ac08@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020415142902.020c6250@mail.qrc.com>

At 09:40 AM 4/13/2002, Texas Redshift wrote:
>After scrying using the Orb of Google, it appears that we may both mean the
>Law of Finds rather than salvage.

Probably; I'm not a lawyer (and only occasionally play one on the Internet).

>In many cases, this compensation is such that simply giving the salvor 
>salvaged property is the best way to straighten things out.

And as a gaming rule of thumb, it'll certainly do.

>Note also that special cases seem to apply to historical shipwrecks and
>military vessels.

Yes; IMTU I'd make the call that military shipwrecks remain Imperial 
property (and thus might be salvaged by the Imperium or it's agents and 
contractors, but not by private groups), and historical wrecks (including 
war graves, memorials, etc.) can be so designated by a proclamation from 
the appropriate nobility.

Thanks for the links!

   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 12:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
References: <20413.120658.7M5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB24B3.8020600@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Well, back in the late 60s/early 70s, I used to grab the Air Force
> equivalent ("in flight meal packs") at the commissary to take on Boy
> Scout camping trips. Basicly, we used them for dinner on Friday night
> when we were tired after setting up camp, and didn't feel much like
> putting a lot of effort into cooking. 

My roommate used to get those by the case at the PX, most of them 
weren't bad by starving college student, top ramen and tuna surprise 
standards.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Backwater areas in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <3C90ACCA.20039.9DF165@localhost>
Message-ID: <20415.121345.7z0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 13 Mar 2002 at 14:47, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > Another option might be hypervelocity rockets with a penetrator.
>> > Something the size of a LAW or AT-4 that accelerates up to 2000+
>> > meters per second in the tube and with a DU penetrator. 
>> 
>> Eek! Do you have any idea what sort of rocket motor you are talking
>> about here? 
>> 
>> Work out the acceleration required, just for starters. 
>> 
>> The backblast will be nasty, and a cracked fuel grain will take out the
>> person firing the rocket.
>
> The NZ Air Force used to (when we still had a strike wing) use Canadian 
> 120mm rockets that had a tungsten carbide penetrator like a tank gun 
> round as their warhead. IIRC they have a similar velocity to that of a 
> tank gun and, as the body stayed attached, more mass. We used them for 
> anti-shipping and they'd no nasty things to a frigate from barely on 
> the horizon. I think the SOP was to fly in at 10,000 feet until the 
> ship appeared over the horizon, fire, then dive back under the horizon 
> before the SAMs got to you.
>
> Therefore the basic idea is feasible at TL7-8, it's just a matter of 
> getting the thing small enough for a man to carry. As for fuel grain 
> cracks - thet's an issue with any rocket or missile, so why make an 
> issue of it for this one? The (likely) higher internal pressure?

A blast that will "inconvenience" a jet fighter will make hamburger out
of an infantryman. And ordnance attached to aircraft gets handled a
*lot* more gently than anything a soldier is packing around in combat.

Also, as noted elsewhere, I can just about guarantee that the
antishipping missile *didn't* reach full velocity in less than 100
meters, much less less than *2* meters.

The big objection is to the missile reaching full velocity by the time
it exits the launch tube. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:01:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:01:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20415.122550.9R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Maybe I'm just too scientifically dumb to follow the
> conversation and am therefore saying the same thing
> that has already been said, but...
>
> Doesn't a starship (or Jump enabled planet for that
> matter) exert gravity inward to it's center?  Isn't
> that a different force than the planet or ship or GG
> or Star that is closer than 100D?

Nope. Or at least not in a simple manner.

The gravitational forces inside a hollow sphere *cancel*. For other
shapes, you need a lot of calculus to figure what sort of forces you get.

Inside a solid sphere, of uniform density, you get the interesting
result that the force of gravity is a *maximum* at the surface and
drops *linearly* to zero at the center.

For one of varying density, where the density varies in spherical
"layers", it's a bit weirder, but you can figure it out by just taking
the mass of the solid sphere that's closer to the center than you are.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:01:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:01:56 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020415175248.A24097@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20415.124737.8e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Actually, if you are out at the distance of saturn or farther, that
>> "ice" is apt to be a mix of ammonia, methane and water.
>
> Yes, quite true.  Water is more prevalent further in, which I would
> guess is where ships are more likely to want to go.  Most spacecraft
> in my Traveller universe don't scoop gas giants for hydrogen unless
> really desperate; they either slurp it up from oceans or grab it from
> icy moons or other bodies.  Sometimes that means throwing away excess
> methane and ammonia because they don't have appropriate type of
> tankage to hold it.

If you aren't scooping from a gas giant, you don't *need* tankage.
Except for a rather small amount to hold stuff that you are feeding
thru the systems that "crack" the hydrogen out of them.

Both methane and ammonia will burn with oxygen. So you crack some water
(thermally or via electrolysis) and use the oxygen to burn the methane
and ammonia to N2, H20 & CO2. You condense the H20 and crack it to get
back the oxygen. The CO2 and N2 get either discrard or fed into the
life support system's atomosphere reprocessing section. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:02:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:02:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Here I go again. Please don't kill me  :-)
>
> Right now I'm adding population generation to my script.
>
> Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
> than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
> become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
> of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake  ;-)
>
> "That's no moon"
>
> I could see people turning a small moon into swiss cheese and living in
> it, but at that point it will cease to be a moon and begin to be a space
> station built using an asteroid hull.

Okay that six mile (I assume diameter, if it's radius, multiply all
areas below by 4) rockball has a surface area of just over 3 billion
square feet. Equivalent to a square 10.6 miles on a side. That's a
*lot* bigger than Manhattan.

Which gives each of those 10,000 people roughly 315,000 square feet. Or
an area about 560 feet square.  That's a couple of city blocks!

Say it's 50,000. That reduces things to 63,000 squae feet apiece. An
area only 250 feet square.

Allow burrowing only a few hundred feet into the surface, and the
amount of space gets positively *obscene*. And it's still a moon or
asteroid, not a station with an asteroid hull.

Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
buildings and the like.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
Message-ID: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>

--part1_a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
> than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
> become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
> of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake  ;-)

I would say that isn't really a problem, for reasons that others have gone
into in plenty of detail.

One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of rock in 
a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons of inhabited 
planets,
a few large bodies in any given planetoid belt, maybe.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
<BR>&gt; than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
<BR>&gt; become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
<BR>&gt; of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake &nbsp;;-)
<BR>
<BR>I would say that isn't really a problem, for reasons that others have gone
<BR>into in plenty of detail.
<BR>
<BR>One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of rock in 
<BR>a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons of inhabited planets,
<BR>a few large bodies in any given planetoid belt, maybe.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020415190106.CE88227B71@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB4144.FF9D2823@earthlink.net>

John T. Kwon
> 
> 
> In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?

Yes. It's called "TL17". TL14 for those playing GT.

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <200204151758.ECZ05255@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E09124.3A634%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?

Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right when the user no
longer understands what's going on behind the 'curtain'.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8e0f93f2f0d@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>todal forces are the same.

A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the 
size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity 
in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal 
gradient.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:46:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:46:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020416074539.A25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
> I always thought the 100D gravity (or whatever) limit as being more
> of a sheering force on the Jumping vessel.  The vessels internal
> gravity (or whatever) just isn't sheering on itself.

Well, gravitational fields in empty space exert a combination of
stretching and compressional tides, not shearing.  Once you look at
the field *inside* some point of a body, it is a sum of the
compressional/stretching due to external fields, with a pure
compressional tide due to local density.

The simplest case is the interior of a sphere of uniform density.  In
that case, *every* point within the sphere has an isotropic and
homogeneous compression tide.  The strength is independent of location
within the sphere, and also independent of the size of the sphere.
(The mechanical pressure does vary with position and size however)

Grossly non-uniform and asymmetric bodies like starships have tidal
gradients that are horribly 'lumpy' throughout and difficult to plug
into an equation :/  You can still do the maths, but you need a
computer to actually add up all the numbers.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>
References: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020416080223.B25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of
> rock in a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons
> of inhabited planets, a few large bodies in any given planetoid
> belt, maybe.

I might go that far in a setting where a spacefaring civilization had
been confined to a single star system for *ages*.  Like the Moties,
for example.  The Imperium has too much room to move, and too low a
population for a 10km cometary body in the inner Oort cloud to look in
the least attractive as a home if there are any alternatives.

But I'd get a computer to do the actual number-crunching, and get
statistical features rather than individual figures.  Just things like
the probability that a given body of certain diameter, location, and
composition is inhabited, and by how many if so.  e.g. "1.3 trillion
living in asteroids of 5 km diameter or less in the inner belt", that
sort of thing.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20415.124737.8e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415175248.A24097@freeman.little-possums.net> <20415.124737.8e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020416081241.C25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Both methane and ammonia will burn with oxygen. So you crack some water
> (thermally or via electrolysis) and use the oxygen to burn the methane
> and ammonia to N2, H20 & CO2. You condense the H20 and crack it to get
> back the oxygen. The CO2 and N2 get either discrard or fed into the
> life support system's atomosphere reprocessing section. 

I don't see what I get from this.

IMTU, there is only a small tank capable of holding LHyd with all the
associated cryogenic systems, ultralow temperature pumps and such
expensive stuff.  It primarily feeds the jump drive when entering
jump.  The rest of the fuel space is designed to hold water which I
can slowly refine using a fuel processor during jump.

So the limit on how much fuel I can hold is how much oxygen is
available to bind the hydrogen into water for my large (and cheap)
tanks.  Discarding CO2 from burning methane is hence worse than just
throwing away the methane.  I might extract some nitrogen from the
ammonia to replenish any atmosphere losses, but that's about it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020416082357.D25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

[Jens wrote:]
> > I could see people turning a small moon into swiss cheese and living in
> > it, but at that point it will cease to be a moon and begin to be a space
> > station built using an asteroid hull.

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
> things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
> buildings and the like.

You can say that again!  A moon of 50 mile diameter has a volume of
about 20 trillion dtons.  Suppose the moon was indeed turned in "swiss
cheese".  Even if only 1% of the space was living quarters, that's
still 200 billion dtons.  Just think how many staterooms you could fit
into that!  Heck, give every single person 2000 cubic metres in that
1% volume (a rather large house, and that's per person, not per
family) and you've still got room for over a billion people.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>; from JFZeigler@aol.com on Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 04:10:04PM -0400
References: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020415163142.B9543@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 04:10:04PM -0400, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> 
> One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of
> rock in a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons
> of inhabited planets, a few large bodies in any given planetoid
> belt, maybe.

I dunno.  If it _can_ be inhabited, it _may_ be inhabited, and good
random tables should reflect this.

I know that when I finally get the GT world generation done for
travlib that it's going to generate population for every world
(i.e. belt, terrestrial planet and moon).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I read [.doc files] with 'rm.'  All you lose is the Microsoft-specific
font selections, the macro viruses and the luser babblings.
                                      --Gary `Wolf' Barnes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <OF66D276C9.2DAD1A83-ON85256B9C.006477EE@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <007401c1e4cf$89095d20$5d9393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Im really looking forward to this. i got an order in at my FLGS already 8)
>
> Bill
>

Then you'll be pleased to learn that I'm working through the final-ish edit
on the "offending article" right now.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:52:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:52:05 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au> <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net> <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <008901c1e4cf$efbbccb0$5d9393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> I sincerely apologise to everyone involved in the T20 project.  My
> forgetting to include a 'smiley' totally changed the emphasis of the
> message and made it seem negative.  IT WAS NOT MEANT TO BE, as I am
> really looking forward to T20.  for those of you who are not aware of
> the Open Gaming licence, using the d20 system means that everything is
> (to a significant degree) interchangeable.  This means that (with only a
> little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
> them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
> terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.

Heh. I must have missed the original post - gone back and found it now - so
I've decided to be mildly (and retrospectively) annoyed - just to make it
worth your time in writing the apology. (grin).

We're in final preparation now. Layout is still to do, but more or less, we
have a product. I'm guessing weeks now.

Regards

MJD




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 17:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr 15 16:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: open source rpg development
Message-ID: <20020415233039.66503.qmail@web11304.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I do wish to point out who is affected by an effort
that results in taking market share from professional
game designers.  Regardless of their original intent. 
It will be the folks like Loren who live on a
shoestring instead of folks like Bill Gates who
already has more money than he has a purpose for.
END QUOTE

But then it could be argued that any one new who has
an original RPG shouldn't publish (openly or
commercially) because it would take market share from
the already established publihers. Now that idea is
ridiculous. However it wouldn't be moral to make a
open source version of Trav, because then you would be
stealing the ideas of people who need them to make a
living. I however feel that if you want to make a new
original RPG you should go ahead. It's a capatilist
society and if you can't compete against FAR competion
than no one is going to subsidise you (unless you have
friend's in government). I do think people like Loren
do deserve our support though (even though I wouldn't
touch GURPS with a ten foot pole)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 17:41:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 16:41:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Changes to First In rules
In-Reply-To: <20020316213935.3edca0b2.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <005001c1e4d7$00aec5c0$0f01a8c0@terry>

> When working on my program for First In star system generation (see my
> other recent post), I decided to make a few minor changes to the way
the
> rules work. Do the changes below sound reasonable?

I was just looking this over to add to mine and realized there is a
problem with your ratios. A standard sector has stellar systems much
more often than your ratios. It looks like your average assumes 200
systems per sector and that is very low for standard. A sector has 32x40
or 1280 hexes and standard is a 1/2 chance per hex for an average of
640. 
 
> 1) A primary star has a 1/500 chance of being a supergiant. This gives
one
> supergiant per 2.5 sectors (of standard stellar density).

Average of 1.28 per sector, limit of one please!
 
> 2) A primary star has a 1/1500 chance of being a type O star,
resulting in
> one type O star per 7.5 sectors.

Average of one per 2.3 sectors.

> 3) A primary star has a 1/500 chance of being a type B star, resulting
in
> one type B star per 2.5 sectors.

Average of 1.28 per sector. 
 
Regards,

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204160006.EDL06288@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right 
>when the user no longer understands what's going on behind 
>the 'curtain'.
>
And how many users know what's going on behind the scenes in 
their browser?  Why is AOL so popular?  Because most people 
don't know and don't care what goes on behind the curtain.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I remember thinking one time when I was staring down
the barrel of a .45, "thank God he does not have a
knife."  Getting penetrated by a knife is 
somehow terrifying, and it also gives the wielder
credible non-lethal options.  I think there have been
several instances in recent times when 
bayonet charges have routed the enemy, even if no one
actually got stabbed. A bayonet would be vital for
handling prisoners, and possibly even reluctant 
heroes.  ;)
END QUOTE

Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
to see is a cloud of dust ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020415.203959.-193407.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

What, because you have dust in your veins instead of blood?  ;-)



                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB75B0.45698CC5@premier.net>


James Ramsay wrote:
> 
> QUOTE
> I remember thinking one time when I was staring down
> the barrel of a .45, "thank God he does not have a
> knife."  Getting penetrated by a knife is
> somehow terrifying, and it also gives the wielder
> credible non-lethal options.  I think there have been
> several instances in recent times when
> bayonet charges have routed the enemy, even if no one
> actually got stabbed. A bayonet would be vital for
> handling prisoners, and possibly even reluctant
> heroes.  ;)
> END QUOTE
> 
> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

And that, sir, is why armies still issue bayonets.... ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020415230829.93725.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
The person who deserves the biggest rocket up the arse
in "Aliens" (military-wise) is the pilot of the
dropship. Though she was originally told that the LZ
had been secured, she'd never make a Traveller-PC
group.
END QUOTE

Thats a bit unfair, it was spunkmeyer who went to take
a piss out side. And I think even recon would get
rattled after the nest encounter. Another thing to
consider is that according to the background material
most of the marines where conscripts. Drake and
Vasquez where convicted criminals and thier sentance
was life in the marines! Now what does that tell you
about the casualty rate of the USCM? No wonder they
only had one squad on a big arse ship like the sulaco!

On a tangent I watched Aliens and Star Wars the other
day and noticed that both use the same type of headset
comunicators. Oh and a funny thing here in Australia,
three of our sailors where arrested for damaging earth
moving equipment! And these people are protecting our
waters?

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 19:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 18:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020416031009.2bda525e.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
> things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
> buildings and the like.

Thank you for hitting me with the "stupid" stick for the second time in
the last days, Leonard  :-)

I'll crawl back into my dark corner now.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 20:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 19:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CT/Book 5 question
Message-ID: <200204160206.EDP04153@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

OK.  Actually a Book 5 question.  Ship has partial 
streamlining. Under the rules, it can do gas giant 
refueling.  If it can move through an upper atmosphere like 
that (presumably at some velocity - after all, we don't want 
to spiral in), can you land such a ship on a world with a 
standard atmosphere?

How does an air/raft do it?  1-G acceleration.  You're riding 
in a vehicle about the size of a HMMWV with the top down.

Feel that wind in your hair...

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 21:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 15 20:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>; from quakers_united@yahoo.com.au on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:36:12AM +1000
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:36:12AM +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
> 
> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

Unless he's the faster...

That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
convincing opposing argument:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Yes, we will want simultaneous translators...No, not when the PM meets
the leaders of the English-speaking nations...Yes, the English-speaking
nations can be said to include the United States.
          --Bernard Wooley, `Yes, Prime Minister'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 22:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon Apr 15 21:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CT/Book 5 question
References: <200204160206.EDP04153@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB9B7E.656C5156@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> OK.  Actually a Book 5 question.  Ship has partial
> streamlining. Under the rules, it can do gas giant
> refueling.  If it can move through an upper atmosphere like
> that (presumably at some velocity - after all, we don't want
> to spiral in), can you land such a ship on a world with a
> standard atmosphere?
>
> How does an air/raft do it?  1-G acceleration.  You're riding
> in a vehicle about the size of a HMMWV with the top down.
>
> Feel that wind in your hair...
>
> ________________
> "Imposed armistices . . . artificially
> freeze conflict and perpetuate a state
> of war indefinitely by shielding the
> weaker side from the consequences of
> refusing to make concessions for peace."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Streamlined ships are trans atmospheric. Air rafts take a number of
hours equal to the UPP size of the planet to orbit/deorbit.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:36:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:36:45 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020416064248.CB2DF279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/15/02 at 03:47 PM,  Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> said:

>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>> Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
>> OTU games.

>You don't think it makes sense that people from highly
>technologically advanced societies are richer than modern-day
>Earthlings?  Especially starship crew, who have to live in cramped
>conditions in a hostile environment for weeks at a time?

No, I don't.  

>Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot
>more than bus drivers.  And people in the US generally get paid a lot
>more than people in most other countries for comparable occupations. 
>So to my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from
>high-tech societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.

The crews of free traders *are* the truck drivers and mechanics of the
TU, and that's how they should be paid. That's my opinion, and how it
works IMTU, YTUMV.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:37:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:37:16 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <001e01c1e492$a431a680$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/15/02 at 11:31 AM,  Christopher Pratt <cdpratt@gatecom.com>
said:

>Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for those
>kinds of speciallized skills... I mean how much does a Airliner pilot
>make now days...

Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:39:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:39:10 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <OF4155728C.34ECCD82-ONCA256B9D.00183047@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Eris opined:
>>> On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:
>>> 
>>>> Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll
>>>> never get my Tigress at this rate.
>>> 
>>> Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
>>> level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
>>> low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
>>> level) per month!  <g>
>
>>Which makes a steward a well paid individual indeed.  That's about
>>$140,160/year in adjusted dollars.  The Pilot is raking in about 210
>>grand a year in 2002 US dollars.
>
>Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
>OTU games.

I don't see much of a problem with it. It is in line with - but not 
excessively over-the-top - the idea that the more high-tech a society, the 
more resources each individual in society has to "spend". All of us on the 
TML, for instance, would be considered tremendously wealthy by folks who 
lived a hundred years ago, let alone when compared to peasants living back 
in the days of William the Conqueror.

Star Trek, for example, portrays this is a nicely understated way by 
removing the tokens of money, but then allowing crewmembers to book time 
on the holodeck, or use the replicator. Remember when Harry 
I've-gone-blank-on-his-surname (Voyager's navigator) decided to forgo his 
replicated meal allowance (and eat Neelix's food! Paris: "Hair? I assume 
that's just an expression?" Neelix: "No!") in order to replicate a violin? 
That's the sort of magical transformation that all those alchemists dreamt 
about! (Actually, they would have been happy with just a lump of gold, but 
you get my drift... ;-).

Originally (in 1977), Marc set 1 credit equal to US$1 - at least, on the 
interstellar beer ratio. I believe that may have been modified in the 
early '80's to Cr 1 = US$2. Then you have the effects of those 
local-vs-Imperial credit exchange rate tables (one appears in an early 
JTAS, for instance) which up's the ante again. In short, a pilot paid 
wages in Imperial credits, who then lands on a backwater world, is in a 
similar situation to a modern-day pilot (paid in, say UK pounds or US $$ - 
not AU$, sorry Phill! ;-) who lands in Rwanda. Or Zimbabwe. Or even India. 
He can lord in about and spend all that cash, or can save it up for his 
time back home on that high-tech homeworld where _one_ air/raft costs 
Cr400,000.

Don't sweat it - it's not _that_ hard to get rid of PC's money. I'm sure 
Eris only gave his PBeM players a ship in order to give them a big black 
money-pit... Just make them keep track of everything. I've had one player 
in my game saying the the others, "I know we're under attack, but these 
missiles are Cr10,000 _each_! Do you know how much this missile salvo is 
going to cost us??" To which I, as DM, coached, "Andrew, you're playing a 
_male_ Aslan. WHO CARES how much those missiles cost, just FIRE!!" As a 
large (toothy ;-) grin appeared from behind his beard, the others realised 
the monetary implications of a trigger-happy gunner. This led nicely to 
the party arguing about how many missiles they were going to "waste" on 
defence, while all the while the nasty pirate was allowed to continue 
lasering away their several-orders-of-magnitude-more-expensive superdense 
hull plating!!  ;-)

Ah, me! Players are good at shooting themselves in the foot. You just have 
to get creative when helping them to aim. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:40:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:40:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
Message-ID: <OFF290291A.CB37BC25-ONCA256B9D.0017EFD0@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>>Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
>>"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
>>
>> The origin is bugging me....
>
>It definitely goes back to at least the mid to late 80s. I thought that I
>might have first seen it in "Striker", which would be around 1981 or so, 
but
>I could be mistaken.

You are not mistaken. It's mentioned in Striker Book 2, part of the 
"Integrating with Traveller" section.

My bet is that it goes back to "Starship Troopers".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:43:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:43:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com> <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>

On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:02:50 +1000, Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

>I'll assume that the 100D limit corresponds to a tidal tension
>of 4e-13 s^-2, and hence that the 10D gradient is 4e-10 s^-2.
>
>Let us suppose that each ship is spherical with an average density of
>500 kg/m^3 (i.e. about 7 tonnes/dton).

I.e., about half that of an equal volume of water.  This is probably a
bit low on the density for most Traveller ships, but it is certainly
not too far off the mark for smaller ships which are capable of ocean
refueling.

>Displacement  Diameter  Mass    10D limit  100D limit
>(dtons)       (m)       (Mg)    (m)        (m)
>100           13.8      685     61.1       611
>1000          29.7      6850    131.7      1317
>10000         64.0      68500   283.8      2838
>100000        138       685000  611.4      6114
>
>As you can see, the hull surface is far inside the 10D limit.
>
>The formulae are pretty simple: mass =3D density * volume,
>volume =3D pi D^3 / 6  for a sphere,
>T =3D 2 G M / R^3.

Thanks for providing the formulas in addition to doing the table.
This certainly is useful for an earlier discussion regarding Jump
Masking (consult the archives if you are curious).

>JR Holmes wrote:
>> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force
>> upon itself
>
>You are.  This is very important in determining Roche's limit, for
>example.

I remain unconvinced in this regard.  "Roche's Limit is the distance
from a planet inside which a satellite will be torn apart by tidal
forces." (from http://www.cvc.org/astronomy/roche_limit.htm) or
"Roche's Limit, which is the distance from a planet at which the
planet's tidal force on a satellite (tending to stretch apart) is
equal to the satellite's self-gravity (tending to hold it together)."
(from http://utrao.as.utexas.edu/ast301/log/log22.html)

As per the above, Roche's Limit is where these tidal forces (a
tensional force) equal the compressional forces of an object's own
gravity.  But this is in regard to the tidal forces exerted _with
regard to another body_.  Without the other body, no tidal force.

It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In another
of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional and
compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive me if
I am interpreting you incorrectly).  I believe you are in error in
this regard.  As per the above, the compressional forces are due to
the object's self-gravity and only the tensional forces are due to the
influence of another body and therefore are tidal forces.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:43:58 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8E09124.3A634%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEKDHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Tod Glenn wrote :
> on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> > In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> > starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> > stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
>
> Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.
> Right when the user no longer understands what's going
> on behind the 'curtain'.

That happens at TL 6 for most people.

How many people actually understand how even an internal
combustion engine works, let alone a computer ?

IME, the vast majority of people (i.e people who don't
subscribe to the TML) effectively consider anything beyond
simple mechanical machines "magic".

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:44:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:44:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
(of radiation effects on fertility)
> Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
> men, if you prefer)?

Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
the testis to ionising radiation.

Larsen Whipsnade wrote :-
> GURPS, in Compendium II, handles this in the following manner.
> If a female has a lifetime dose of 250 rads, her offspring, and
> any problems they may have, are entirely at the GM's discretion.
There probably won't be any offspring (permanent sterility in 75%).

> Realistic?  Yes.
Nah, in GURPS it's usually an excuse for the GM to introduce Weird
Mutant Powers (TM) <g>


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:45:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:45:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.225006.1X5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi,

> Thing is, the density of "rocky" planets (as opposed to gas giants and
> the iceballs you find in the outer system) is pretty uniform.

For Mercury (5.43), Venus (5.24) and Earth (5.52), yes.
For Mars (3.93), any Jovian moon (some of which are considered "rocky", e.g.
Io, at 3.53), and a few others, no.
Personally, I'd reckon that density can vary considerably even for rocky
worlds, say from 3.0 to nearly 7.8 (almost totally iron) or 8.5+ (almost
totally nickel).

> So if there's any sort of safety factor built in to the "100 diameter"
> rule, it'll work fine except in *really* oddball situations (say trying
> to jump close to a *big* nickel-iron asteroid).

So ... if I had a planet with an extremely large Ni-Fe core, and a higher
mean density as a result, say towards 6.5 or 7.0, then the 100D rule would
not be good enough. Another hazard for exploring uncharted systems, I guess.

> The details *do* matter, because the forces at the *hull* of even a
> small ship will *exceed* those from a planet at 100 diameters. That's a
> *unavoidable*.

Leonard, please don't emphasise words with asterisks. It just makes things
harder to read and comes over patronising, even if that's not intended.

*Try* *reading* *this* *sentence* *to* *see* *what* *I* *mean*.

Also, if we have to handwave away the tidal gradient due to the ship's hull,
then I'd argue that the tidal gradient is not the principal factor in a
misjump, no matter how well the figures fit.

> So a ship *has* to be able to compensate for the forces generated by
> its own mass.

Having said that, if that's the case, then maybe that's where all the Jump
Fuel goes - maybe.

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:49:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:49:13 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>

I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
_recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.

Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
like you are too valuable to lose.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:50:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:50:20 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OF79538278.A1B0E48C-ON85256B9C.005AE8D9@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBC25E4.2080505@magpiesnest.co.uk>

William Lane wrote:

> has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a line at
> wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.
> 
Certainly have Bill (though now I tend to use JAXP, which is based around Xerces but has differences). Send me your questions and I will do my best to answer them for you.



-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:56:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:56:07 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW! I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <F165K8onzvMMl6Dcu4n00003775@hotmail.com>

Congratulations, Jeff!  Thanks for *your* work!


>From: Jeff Zeitlin <editor@freelancetraveller.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
>Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 07:23:41 -0400
>
>I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
>protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
>Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
>flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
>never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
>_recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
>
>Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
>allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
>more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
>you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
>like you are too valuable to lose.
>
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
>Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
>http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
>http://www.freelancetraveller.com
>http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
>editor@freelancetraveller.com
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
Message-ID: <OF8A9C8510.72B94182-ON85256B9D.004D468D@pheaa.org>








>> has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a line at
>> wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.

>Certainly have Bill (though now I tend to use JAXP, which is based around
Xerces but has differences). Send me your >questions and I will do my best
to answer them for you.


Here is what im doing im developing a java application that reads an xml
file and parses it into 3 seperate COBOL data files. the cobol group
eventually runs their apps and uses the data from these flat files. once
they are through they send them back to me. i then want to parse these 3
files into a single new xml file.

i have gotten to where i am creating the new document. i can append
children on it ect.. ect..

however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to actually be
written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im new to XML and Xerces
is not the best documented thing i have ever worked with. i was looking at
maybe using the serializer to send a outPutStream through it. but it would
seem to me that xerces should have a way of building this document out on
the drive.

but maybe im just wishful thinking 8P

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:17:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RULES - Skill Lvl. 0
Message-ID: <12414.1018957560@www34.gmx.net>

Hello Together,

I'm kind of new to actually play Megatraveller. Now I've encountered a
problem regarding 'Skill-Level-0-serves-as-Level-minus-1-Skills'. My Problem is :
If you have a Skill at Level 0 (e.g. Grav Vehicle-0), and this Skill 'serves
as' another Skill at Level minus 1 (Grav Vehicle serves as Grav Belt -1), at
which Level do I execute the 'served' Skill (Grav Belt)?
at : Level -1 (-> giving a negative DM of 1)?
at : Level 0 (-> minimum Skill-Level is allways 0)?
or not at all (-> there are no 'served' Skills for Level-0-Skills)?

Is there an official rule (which I did not find - sorry), or any other
sollutions?

Thank you, Sebastian

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>

Stephen Tempest posts:
>Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =20

Shouldnt the hull code be Z? I though Y was for 1,000,000 to 
1,999,999. Z was for anything above that. 

>MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
Architects fees? Anyone?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:51:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:51:14 2002
Subject: [TML] List outtage
Message-ID: <B8E1855D.3A929%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all,

Owing to an uncheduled outage on the part of my ISP, the mailing list hosted
at TravellerCentral.com were unavailable from about 11pm last night (PST)
until early this morning.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Tod
-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Marsh)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
Message-ID: <F58wAeRaNgEpTX5V3Gy00000309@hotmail.com>

I do not have my LBB in front of me; I thought the term was first used in 
Book 4 either with the illustration of the Forward Observer or in the Iron 
Mongery section. This would have well preceded Striker. Can anyone confirm 
this? (I agree it was prob. lifted from some fiction)


>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
>Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 16:17:04 +1000
>
>Dear Folks -
>
> >>Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> >>"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
> >>
> >> The origin is bugging me....
> >
> >It definitely goes back to at least the mid to late 80s. I thought that I
> >might have first seen it in "Striker", which would be around 1981 or so,
>but
> >I could be mistaken.
>
>You are not mistaken. It's mentioned in Striker Book 2, part of the
>"Integrating with Traveller" section.
>
>My bet is that it goes back to "Starship Troopers".
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014401c1e55a$62849d00$1f9e15ac@warrior>

hmm... good point... both the part about the PC scrapping for cash, and the
IYTU justification for it...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 12:58 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?


> On 04/15/02 at 11:31 AM,  Christopher Pratt <cdpratt@gatecom.com>
> said:
>
> >Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for those
> >kinds of speciallized skills... I mean how much does a Airliner pilot
> >make now days...
>
> Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
> skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
> They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
> thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
> in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
> living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.
>
> Eris
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
In-Reply-To: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075705.009f3cf0@mindspring.com>

At 07:23 AM 4/16/02 -0400, you wrote:

>I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
>protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
>Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
>flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
>never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
>_recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
>
>Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
>allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
>more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
>you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
>like you are too valuable to lose.

Hey, you earned it!

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
end of the world is fast approaching."
- Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:26:28 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8E09124.3A634%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204151758.ECZ05255@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>

At 02:16 PM 4/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>
> > In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> > starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> > stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
>
>Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right when the user no
>longer understands what's going on behind the 'curtain'.

Hell, for me that's today!  I can use my comp[uter, but for all I know, 
this beige box is actually home to a tribe of magic pixes.

There was a great SF story written years ago, might even have been golden 
age, about a bunch of scientists who build a time machine. They can grab 
one person from the future.  They get an ad executive.  Sure there are 
cancer curesm flying cars, etc, but he just knows how to use them, not how 
they work.

I still find it amazing and rather magical that this little bit of dreck 
will be read by people on the other side of the planet (hi Jens and Hans!) 
I sort of understand that it will be shuffled around by a lot of computers 
that do that sort of thing, but beyond that?  Nothing.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
In-Reply-To: <OF8A9C8510.72B94182-ON85256B9D.004D468D@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCMECKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

William

I did mail you off list ... but since you replied to the list, well, hey ...
;-)

> however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to actually be
> written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im new to XML
> and Xerces
> is not the best documented thing i have ever worked with. i was looking at
> maybe using the serializer to send a outPutStream through it. but it would
> seem to me that xerces should have a way of building this document out on
> the drive.

Try the following sort of thing -

try {
		myFileWriter = new FileWriter( "filename.xml");
		myFileWriter.flush();

		myDocumentImpl = new DocumentImpl();

		// ...



// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
		// Code to generate root element here, omitted for clarity


// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-


		// ...

		OutputFormat myOutputFormat = new OutputFormat( myDocumentImpl );
		myOutputFormat.setIndent( 4 );
		myOutputFormat.setIndenting( true );

		myOutputFormat.setDoctype( "filename.dtd" , "filename.dtd" );

		myXMLSerializer = new XMLSerializer( myOutputFormat );
		myXMLSerializer.setOutputCharStream( myFileWriter );


		// ...



// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
		// Generate the rest of the document, again omitted for clarity, then
write it


// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

		// ...

		myXMLSerializer.serialize( myDocumentImpl );
		myOutputFormat.flush();
	}
catch ( IOException ioe )
	{
	}

Hope this helps.

Andy B

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204161835500.25492-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
> Hell, for me that's today!  I can use my comp[uter, but for all I know, 
> this beige box is actually home to a tribe of magic pixes.
[snip]
> I still find it amazing and rather magical that this little bit of dreck 
> will be read by people on the other side of the planet (hi Jens and Hans!) 
> I sort of understand that it will be shuffled around by a lot of computers 
> that do that sort of thing, but beyond that?  Nothing.

The more I get to know about how things work, the more I think that they
are indeed powered by magic. And mathematics, which is almost the same
stuff. B-)

Trust me, you are better off not knowing how computer networks are built.
You might wonder how they do work at all... B-)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
Message-ID: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>







>I did mail you off list ... but since you replied to the list, well, hey
...
>;-)

Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
info.

Bill












From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RULES - Skill Lvl. 0
In-Reply-To: <12414.1018957560@www34.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAECLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hello

Originally, Skill Level - 0 meant no skill at all, and Skill Level - 1/2
meant some familiarity at a basic level, enough to avoid a penalty for
absolutely no ability or knowledge but not enough to actually grant a +DM.

Then it changed, so that the absence of the skill on a character sheet meant
no skill at all, and 0 meant some familiarity.

I rule that if you have Skill Level - 0 in something, then the next level
down would be no knowledge at all or the "absence" condition above.

Basically, Skill Level - 0 invokes no bonus and incurs no penalty. It does
not mean that you have Skill Level - 0 in a related skill, you're a
greenhorn with some learnin' is all.

Andy B.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:45:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:45:29 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCECLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> There was a great SF story written years ago, might even have been golden
> age, about a bunch of scientists who build a time machine. They can grab
> one person from the future.  They get an ad executive.  Sure there are
> cancer curesm flying cars, etc, but he just knows how to use
> them, not how they work.

Now that is what I call a grade A bad day ... pulling an ad exec from the
future - yeuch !

Andy B


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204161835500.25492-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <20020416155310.3125.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

> You might wonder how they do work at all... B-)

The place I used to work had an exceptionally
dimwitted programmer.  I mean, sitting listening to
his ideas for solving problems (the few he had) was an
exercise in humor at the least.  In any case, he would
work well into the night when code was due and his
stuff would eventually come close to working.  When we
found a bug, we looked for the code and it appeared
that the code was not doing what the system was doing.
 To this day, we swear he must've been sacrificing
chickens or virgins or virgin chickens or something to
get the stuff to work.

ObTrav:  There is a (Star Trek created?) stereotype of
the engineer who can fix anything but no one can tell
how he does it.  What other stereotypes are common in
your games?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:11:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:11:15 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
In-Reply-To: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <B8E19A80.35FF%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

on 4/16/02 4:23 AM, Jeff Zeitlin at editor@freelancetraveller.com wrote:

> I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
> protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
> Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
> flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
> never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
> _recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
> 
> Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
> allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
> more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
> you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
> like you are too valuable to lose.
> 

You deserve a lot more credit than you're giving yourself, Jeff.

I've submitted a couple of things, and Jeff not only posts them, he does an
wonderful job at layout, making them much easier to read than the raw text I
gave him (and probably making them a better read than they actually are).
That is a LOT of work, and it shows.  The whole site is great.

I'm giving you a standing ovation (well, not now, I'm typing - OK, there it
was, did you feel it?).

Thanks Jeff, you are the Fourth Force in Traveller support.

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:15:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:15:47 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <OF7A3367D5.83EB7401-ON85256B9D.0057F13F@pheaa.org>




<snip>
The place I used to work had an exceptionally
dimwitted programmer.  I mean, sitting listening to
his ideas for solving problems (the few he had) was an
exercise in humor at the least.
</snip>

Hmm you know i feel just like that right now. the Dimwitted Programmer 8(


>we swear he must've been sacrificing
>chickens or virgins or virgin chickens or something to
>get the stuff to work.

So if it works where can i get any of the above? or would a Groat do as
well?


OBTRAV:

The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
other.

Captain asks "What are you doing?"

New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"

Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P







From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:33:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:33:52 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <F20f7SMIaeYt2KoTstO00000c20@hotmail.com>

>From: "William Lane" <wlane@aessuccess.org>
>
>
>OBTRAV:
>
>The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
>Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
>engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
>Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
>other.
>
>Captain asks "What are you doing?"
>
>New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
>works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
>
>Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P

Jason Wright, the Merchant Ex-scout I play in Eris' Reaver's Deep game just 
raced into the engineering spaces when the gunner asked why the new engineer 
was taking apart the jump drive (since we were planning on lifting next day 
or so).

He raced in to find the Vargr hanging upside down with panels open and 
probes inserted, and the practical joking vargr with a flash bang for just 
such an occurance.

I'm wondering about her right now.  Current odds are that she'll make it 
through the first jump, but we'll space her during the second...

;-)

Thanks, Eris, for the Black-hole Money Pit which has seperated us from much 
money...

Greg

aka Rewock Mopit

Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:40:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:40:15 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204161638.EET02699@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Andrew MacLintock" says
>
>Jason Wright, the Merchant Ex-scout I play in Eris' Reaver's 
>Deep game just raced into the engineering spaces when the 
>gunner asked why the new engineer was taking apart the jump 
>drive (since we were planning on lifting next day 
>or so).
>
>He raced in to find the Vargr hanging upside down with 
>panels open and probes inserted, and the practical joking 
>vargr with a flash bang for just such an occurance.
>
>I'm wondering about her right now.  Current odds are that 
>she'll make it 
>through the first jump, but we'll space her during the 
>second...
>

Don't laugh.  When I was in Pershing (nuclear missiles, yes), 
we used to supplicate unto Dis, the God of Chaos, and ask for 
the Gift of Pre-Emptive Causality to take our bad luck away 
and bestow it upon the other missile platoons.

It worked.  Boy did it ever.  It got so bad that we were 
ordered to stop worshipping Dis.

Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from 
the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up 
during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and 
said, "Behold, Our God!".
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <200204161638.EET02699@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416131656.00b84c10@urbin.net>

At 12:38 PM 4/16/02 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
[snip]
>Don't laugh.  When I was in Pershing (nuclear missiles, yes),
>we used to supplicate unto Dis, the God of Chaos, and ask for
>the Gift of Pre-Emptive Causality to take our bad luck away
>and bestow it upon the other missile platoons.
>It worked.  Boy did it ever.  It got so bad that we were
>ordered to stop worshipping Dis.
>Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from
>the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
>again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up
>during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and
>said, "Behold, Our God!".

My keyboard is grateful that I wasn't drinking at the time.
I'm still chuckling though, that counts as a kill.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:27:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:27:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com> <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>

As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
something:

At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEJMDKAA.tml@downport.com>

I think that would be a fine use for a lot of those extra, windbag nobles we
have lying around the Imperium. Make them barristers, judges, justices,
notaries public or attorneys general! Do something to stop them cluttering
up the casinos and VIP lounges.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Texas Redshift

As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
something:

At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:43:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:43:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <200204161741.EEV03115@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Texas Redshift" says
>How litigous is the Imperium?
I'm not even sure there's an Imperial Supreme Court.  The 
individual governments seem to have their own laws and 
courts.  There is also the idea expressed in canon that this 
is a different age, where lawsuits across the Imperium do not 
happen.

There might be some legal agreements between various 
systems.  

But IMHO, the litigation level depends on the law level and 
the government type.

One of the first Traveller adventures I was in (1979), we 
were in a ground car accident - minor fender bender.  I 
hadn't gotten the idea down that there was Law Level Zero.

I got out of the car with the others, and asked the other 
driver if he had insurance.  He said, "No."  So I said to my 
friends, "I think we should wait for the police."  They 
laughed and said, "Hey stupid, there are no police."

So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the 
occupants of the other car without warning.  Then we went 
through their pockets for loose change.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018978883.2225.ajackson@ping>

Texas Redshift writes:
> As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
> something:
> 
> At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
> Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
> judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Depends on the world.  There are canon references to 'government of men, not
laws', which implies on the interstellar level it's not litigous per se, and
annoying the local judge with frivolous suits is probably a poor idea.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] CSC software
Message-ID: <200204161814.EEV08005@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I keep seeing references to this.  Is it still available?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416121821.009f23a0@mail.attbi.com>

	Here is a question for you technical types.
	Would a sandcaster actually work as well in the real world as it is 
portrayed in canon?  Also, would a sandcaster affect a particle beam at all?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:33:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:33:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F1633Sv0YKpDS7hx27k00013014@hotmail.com>

Perhaps contracts would provide that disputes would be resolved in a certain 
forum.  For instance, all disputes must be resolved in the Third District 
Court of Regina/Regina or by binding arbitration of the merchant guild or by 
Quickcourts, LIC.

If the Imperium operates as a functioning far-flung market economy, which 
seems to be the case, it must have some efficient method of dispute 
resolution.

>Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
>Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

Was there is an old JTAS article on Imperial justice?

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:35:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:35:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416121821.009f23a0@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018981937.7543.ajackson@ping>

Dale Gyles writes:
>      Here is a question for you technical types.
>      Would a sandcaster actually work as well in the real world as it is 
> portrayed in canon?  Also, would a sandcaster affect a particle beam at
> all? 

Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would work
reasonably well against just about any weapon.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:40:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:40:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <200204161837.EEX02352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Dale Gyles says
>
>	Here is a question for you technical types.
>	Would a sandcaster actually work as well in the real 
>world as it is portrayed in canon?  Also, would a sandcaster 
>affect a particle beam at all?
>
The spot size for the projected SBL is around a foot in 
diameter. The US Air Force is assuming that missiles will be 
painted or coated to optimize reflectivity, and they also 
anticipate that the missiles will spin to reduce the 
effectiveness of the laser.  "Sand" or some sort of 
particulate matter that interferes with the operation of the 
beam, would have to be held in close proximity to the ship.  
The beam has such a small spot size, that to effectively 
maintain a density of sand which would reduce the 
effectiveness of the beam means that you cannot allow it to 
disperse.  There are also plasmas that can be formed that 
might increase the reflectivity of the ship itself at the 
expense of increasing the ship''s signature.

The main way that the SBL intends to defeat reflective 
coatings, spinning, heavier construction, ablative coatings, 
and other countermeasures is to scale up the power.  In the 
case of missiles, they give good arguments as to why the 
countermeasures are, within an ability to hold the beam on 
target for four seconds, ineffective.  That is, with current 
tech, the coatings and spinning are already factored into the 
laser's design.  

As for a particle beam, the amount of material is so 
miniscule, and so thinly spread (the beam is probably 
neutrons), that sand would be useless.  These beams are also 
regarded as being more effective at penetrating armor (from 
the point of view of the Air Force) than a laser.  Both 
radiation damage and deep heating are expected to occur with 
a particle beam weapon.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CSC software
References: <200204161814.EEV08005@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC70CD.1060806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I keep seeing references to this.  Is it still available?

At Bits:

http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/BITS_website/Productsfolder/prod_INFV.htm

Mac only, but a sweet piece of software, if I do say so myself.

For some examples of designs see:

http://oscar.pharmacy.arizona.edu/csc_page.html

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <200204161837.EEX02352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018982859.1183.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> As for a particle beam, the amount of material is so 
> miniscule, and so thinly spread (the beam is probably 
> neutrons), that sand would be useless.  These beams are also 
> regarded as being more effective at penetrating armor (from 
> the point of view of the Air Force) than a laser.  Both 
> radiation damage and deep heating are expected to occur with 
> a particle beam weapon.

Erm.  Probably not neutrons, you can't accelerate them or aim them, though a
space-based particle beam would accelerate ions and then remove the charge,
resulting in a neutral particle beam (penetration would not be better than a
charged particle beam).  Problem with particle beams is they're very difficult
to focus.  Advantage is if you crank the per-particle energies high enough, the
levels of shielding possible on a realistic missile are pretty much irrelevant,
and you can radiation-cook the entire missile.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J A (Jim) Cooper)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
References: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c1e577$fb937b20$9c8c4218@mshome.net>

I would also like to add my congratulations to those of DB and JW. I have
used the sight often and repeatedly.
Keep up the good work.

Jim Cooper

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Zeitlin" <editor@freelancetraveller.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 4:23 AM
Subject: [TML] WOW! I'm massively flattered!


> I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
> protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
> Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
> flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
> never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
> _recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
>
> Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
> allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
> more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
> you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on;
people
> like you are too valuable to lose.
>
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
> Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
> http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
> http://www.freelancetraveller.com
> http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
> editor@freelancetraveller.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <200204161741.EEV03115@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC7D4F.7020102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> I got out of the car with the others, and asked the other 
> driver if he had insurance.  He said, "No."  So I said to my 
> friends, "I think we should wait for the police."  They 
> laughed and said, "Hey stupid, there are no police."
> 
> So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the 
> occupants of the other car without warning.  Then we went 
> through their pockets for loose change.

How long did your party survive before the local residents rounded you 
up and hung you?

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:37:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:37:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>

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In a message dated 15/04/02 17:23:52 GMT Daylight Time, 
firelock_ny@hotmail.com writes:


> One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
> only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
> than they pay out in claims.
> 
> If you are a large enough organization, like a Mega-Corp,
> then your insurable losses from any particular event should
> be low enough (as a percentage of your total income) that it
> will be a better option for you to absorb the losses as they
> occur rather than continuously pay out insurance premiums.
> You'll "self-insure", by keeping cash on hand enough to cover emergencies 
> and accidents.  This is a good way for a large
> enough company to do business, since this "cash on hand",
> while it's on hand, can be earning for the company while
> insurance premiums are gone.

I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Any company, no matter how large, that 
believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
disaster. Trivial accidents, like the loss of a starship or the destruction 
of a drilling platform, are by their nature unpredictable and that is one of 
the best reasons for having insurance. True a single trivial accident can be 
absorbed easily but what about ten or twenty close together?

How can money put aside to insure against risk earn money for the company? It 
has to be safe and readily available at all times. You can't simply leave it 
sitting in an account - AFAIK banks simply don't pay interest on huge sums. 
That leaves you with safe but easily accessible investments which may not 
earn as much as the new unobtanium extraction rig you could have built with 
the money. And how do we decide how much to put aside? We need a specialist 
department to calculate risk and analyse patterns to decide what risks we 
should cover and how much we should put aside. Why not make it easy for 
ourselves and use a specialist outside contractor to do all the hard work?

> 
> If a catastrophe happens that destroys more value of your
> megacorp assets than you would have been paying out in
> insurance premiums, then chances are a war caused it - and
> insurance companies are noted for not paying out claims
> on damage caused by acts of war anyway.

Not neccessarily so - let's say that my mega-corp discovers this fantastic 
new fire-retarding, insulation material. It's easy and cheap to make and can 
be cut and moulded to all sorts of shapes. We call it Sotsebsa and it sells 
like hot cakes. Unfortunately it soon turns out that our wonder product has 
some undocumented problems - mostly it's safe but if you breathe in its dust 
you develop a really nasty, debilitating and fatal lung disease. True high TL 
medicine can cure it in a snap but we mostly sold this stuff on moderate tech 
worlds and millions of people are claiming we've poisoned them.

Now the cost of an individual claim is trivial but the cost of millions is 
not, particularly as we're not going to accept responsibility anywhere in 
case it sets a precedent. What's more our investors can see they're returns 
dwindling, after all we're spending more and more money on defence and 
compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral - 
we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet all of 
them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet these costs. 
Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have previously paid 
them, saving us in the long run, money.

And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want absorb 
the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to perform some 
unplanned demolition on the local school district? 

> 
> So, you'll have two tiers of starship out there.  The
> small or independent operator, who buys insurance (since a
> single event will likely put him out of business otherwise).
> The large corp, which may self-insure (that is, put money
> aside to cover replacement, rather than pay out premiums).

As I said above it's not just a question of assets. Does the mega-corp just 
cover the replacement of its starship or does it cover the potential loss of 
an up-port, down-port, all the other ships in dock, assorted cats, dogs and 
groats plus the mental well-being of little old ladies? If it's the former 
how much money does the mega-corp put aside to cover the legal costs of 
fighting the claims of the other groups? Again it makes far better business 
sense to transfer the risk to someone else. 

> 
> If most of a starport's traffic is megacorp vessels,
> then that starport won't have the insurance industry
> involved as much with starport safety requirements.
> The megacorp may have to post a bond of some sort, but
> this bond may be a trivial formality if the megacorp
> is in bed with the local starport authority...which they
> probably will be, the megacorp likely built the bed,
> washed the linens and hired the nubile young bedwarmers.
> 
> The small independent operator may have to post a bond
> of sorts to gain access to a starport as well.  This bond
> may well be posted by the independent operator's insurance
> carrier on behalf of all the carrier's clients, with the
> insurance carrier requiring operators to meet certain
> safety guidelines to get coverage and access to the bond.
> 
> Walt Smith
> 

I agree there will be different standards for private operators and 
mega-corps but that doesn't mean that mega-corps will self-insure. My 
argument is that the job of assessing risk and betting that accidents won't 
happen is a specialised business. Mega-corps, although they might have 
insurance arms, are not in the business of risking that they won't have the 
funds needed to cover a disaster. It is far easier, and in the long run more 
cost effective, to transfer risk to someone else.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 15/04/02 17:23:52 GMT Daylight Time, firelock_ny@hotmail.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">One thing to remember about insurance companies:&nbsp; they are<BR>
only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums<BR>
than they pay out in claims.<BR>
<BR>
If you are a large enough organization, like a Mega-Corp,<BR>
then your insurable losses from any particular event should<BR>
be low enough (as a percentage of your total income) that it<BR>
will be a better option for you to absorb the losses as they<BR>
occur rather than continuously pay out insurance premiums.<BR>
You'll "self-insure", by keeping cash on hand enough to cover emergencies <BR>
and accidents.&nbsp; This is a good way for a large<BR>
enough company to do business, since this "cash on hand",<BR>
while it's on hand, can be earning for the company while<BR>
insurance premiums are gone.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Any company, no matter how large, that believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to disaster. Trivial accidents, like the loss of a starship or the destruction of a drilling platform, are by their nature unpredictable and that is one of the best reasons for having insurance. True a single trivial accident can be absorbed easily but what about ten or twenty close together?<BR>
<BR>
How can money put aside to insure against risk earn money for the company? It has to be safe and readily available at all times. You can't simply leave it sitting in an account - AFAIK banks simply don't pay interest on huge sums. That leaves you with safe but easily accessible investments which may not earn as much as the new unobtanium extraction rig you could have built with the money. And how do we decide how much to put aside? We need a specialist department to calculate risk and analyse patterns to decide what risks we should cover and how much we should put aside. Why not make it easy for ourselves and use a specialist outside contractor to do all the hard work?</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
If a catastrophe happens that destroys more value of your<BR>
megacorp assets than you would have been paying out in<BR>
insurance premiums, then chances are a war caused it - and<BR>
insurance companies are noted for not paying out claims<BR>
on damage caused by acts of war anyway.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Not neccessarily so - let's say that my mega-corp discovers this fantastic new fire-retarding, insulation material. It's easy and cheap to make and can be cut and moulded to all sorts of shapes. We call it Sotsebsa and it sells like hot cakes. Unfortunately it soon turns out that our wonder product has some undocumented problems - mostly it's safe but if you breathe in its dust you develop a really nasty, debilitating and fatal lung disease. True high TL medicine can cure it in a snap but we mostly sold this stuff on moderate tech worlds and millions of people are claiming we've poisoned them.<BR>
<BR>
Now the cost of an individual claim is trivial but the cost of millions is not, particularly as we're not going to accept responsibility anywhere in case it sets a precedent. What's more our investors can see they're returns dwindling, after all we're spending more and more money on defence and compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral - we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet all of them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet these costs. Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have previously paid them, saving us in the long run, money.<BR>
<BR>
And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want absorb the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to perform some unplanned demolition on the local school district? </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
So, you'll have two tiers of starship out there.&nbsp; The<BR>
small or independent operator, who buys insurance (since a<BR>
single event will likely put him out of business otherwise).<BR>
The large corp, which may self-insure (that is, put money<BR>
aside to cover replacement, rather than pay out premiums).</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">As I said above it's not just a question of assets. Does the mega-corp just cover the replacement of its starship or does it cover the potential loss of an up-port, down-port, all the other ships in dock, assorted cats, dogs and groats plus the mental well-being of little old ladies? If it's the former how much money does the mega-corp put aside to cover the legal costs of fighting the claims of the other groups? Again it makes far better business sense to transfer the risk to someone else. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
If most of a starport's traffic is megacorp vessels,<BR>
then that starport won't have the insurance industry<BR>
involved as much with starport safety requirements.<BR>
The megacorp may have to post a bond of some sort, but<BR>
this bond may be a trivial formality if the megacorp<BR>
is in bed with the local starport authority...which they<BR>
probably will be, the megacorp likely built the bed,<BR>
washed the linens and hired the nubile young bedwarmers.<BR>
<BR>
The small independent operator may have to post a bond<BR>
of sorts to gain access to a starport as well.&nbsp; This bond<BR>
may well be posted by the independent operator's insurance<BR>
carrier on behalf of all the carrier's clients, with the<BR>
insurance carrier requiring operators to meet certain<BR>
safety guidelines to get coverage and access to the bond.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I agree there will be different standards for private operators and mega-corps but that doesn't mean that mega-corps will self-insure. My argument is that the job of assessing risk and betting that accidents won't happen is a specialised business. Mega-corps, although they might have insurance arms, are not in the business of risking that they won't have the funds needed to cover a disaster. It is far easier, and in the long run more cost effective, to transfer risk to someone else.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:46:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:46:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC7F09.6050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
> skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
> They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
> thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
> in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
> living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.


Eris' methods:

PC's inherit fine, functioning starship. PC's overjoyed, one 
particularly stupid one makes dumb DUMB comments about how easy it'll be 
to compete with ship owners who have a mortgage to pay. (Gee I wonder 
who?;-)

Bad guys steal ship.

Space Patroooool to the Rescuuue! <sound of inspirational music, 
punctuated by large explosions>

Space Patrol "Here. We caught the hijackers and recovered your ship. 
Thank us!"

PC's "But there are large holes in our ship where there used to be a 
jump drive, a drive controller, and a safe in the ship's locker"

SP: "Well they didn't surrender peacefully. Thank us and don't ask 
questions."

PC's notice that SP officer is wearing secret police uniform."Thank you"

PC's go to bank and get large loan to get ship flying again.

<scrape scrape> Hold up cardboard signs "Will carry stuff for credits" 
just like all the other free traders...
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:48:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:48:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson asks
>
>How long did your party survive before the local residents 
>rounded you  up and hung you?
>
That was the problem.  They had friends.  We got back to 
town, and they heard about it.  Later that day, when we were 
strolling into the front foyer of the guest house were were 
staying at, three men stepped into the room and opened up on 
us with submachineguns.  Of the six people in our party, one 
survived.  The three attackers died, but the locals were 
steamed enough to shoot the survivor after hearing his tale.

It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
received.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 03:36:24PM -0400
References: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020416135830.A13448@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 03:36:24PM -0400, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have to disagree, I'm afraid.  Any company, no matter how large, that 
> believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
> disaster.

But that's what an insurance company does...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Whenever you walk by a computer and see someone using pico, be kind.
Pause for a second and remind yourself that: `There, but for the grace
of God, go I.'                                           --Harley Hahn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:12:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:12:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018987914.6966.ajackson@ping>

CHam628781@aol.com writes:
> In a message dated 15/04/02 17:23:52 GMT Daylight Time, 
> firelock_ny@hotmail.com writes:
> 
> > One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
> > only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
> > than they pay out in claims.

This isn't actually true.  It's enough if 'payments plus interest on payments'
exceeds average payout.

> I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Any company, no matter how large, that 
> believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
> disaster. Trivial accidents, like the loss of a starship or the destruction
>  of a drilling platform, are by their nature unpredictable and that is one
> of  the best reasons for having insurance. True a single trivial accident
> can be  absorbed easily but what about ten or twenty close together?

Beyond a certain point, there's no choice.  Also, businesses do sometimes fail.
> 
> How can money put aside to insure against risk earn money for the company?

You 'put it aside' in assets and investments.

> It  has to be safe and readily available at all times.

Nah.  Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the
resources and reputation of the company.
> compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral
> -  we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet
> all of  them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet
> these costs.  Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have
> previously paid  them, saving us in the long run, money.

Well, given that it's your fault, the insurance is likely to be reluctant to
pay anyway.
> 
> And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want
> absorb  the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to
> perform some  unplanned demolition on the local school district? 

Many real-world large companies do exactly that.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <200204162032.EFB01691@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

We could go on and discuss how reserves are handled, explain 
the concept of the "book of business", and talk about 
reinsurance.

IMTU I feel that ship insurance is handled much more like 
Lloyd's (with individuals teaming up to take on risk) rather 
than like the auto insurance model.  Starships seem so much 
more risky than automobiles, and the payout on loss is so 
high, that I can truly see it taking a form resembling 
organized gambling (which is, after all, what Lloyd's is 
running - the world's highest paying casino - hope you don't 
lose).

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <200204161638.EET02699@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416132832.009ffd60@mindspring.com>

At 12:38 PM 4/16/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Don't laugh.  When I was in Pershing (nuclear missiles, yes),
>we used to supplicate unto Dis, the God of Chaos, and ask for
>the Gift of Pre-Emptive Causality to take our bad luck away
>and bestow it upon the other missile platoons.

"Humans, humans pay your dues
Just two paths that you get to chose
Feed us right, or fight and lose
Gremlins everywhere."  - Leslie Fish

I knew mechanics who would, with all seriousness, leave out plates of milk 
for the Gremlins.  These units had the highest readiness rates in the brigade.

>It worked.  Boy did it ever.  It got so bad that we were
>ordered to stop worshipping Dis.

Does the phrase "freedom of religion" mean anything?  I was openly a 
Discordian while in the service.

>Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from
>the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
>again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up
>during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and
>said, "Behold, Our God!".

Actually, I would have thought it would be the Sergeant Major who had a 
problem with that.. you know how they hate competiton.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <15c.be25cf3.29ede8fa@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 20:59:44 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:


> > I have to disagree, I'm afraid.  Any company, no matter how large, that 
> > believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
> > disaster.
> 
> But that's what an insurance company does...
> 

No, insurance companies tend to insure themselves against risk as well. I 
believe there's even a well established branch of business that deals with it 
- can't remember the name though :(

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 20:59:44 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; I have to disagree, I'm afraid.&nbsp; Any company, no matter how large, that <BR>
&gt; believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to <BR>
&gt; disaster.<BR>
<BR>
But that's what an insurance company does...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
No, insurance companies tend to insure themselves against risk as well. I believe there's even a well established branch of business that deals with it - can't remember the name though :(<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <158.c6ba94a.29ede9ff@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 21:13:08 GMT Daylight Time, 
ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:


> > It  has to be safe and readily available at all times.
> 
> Nah.  Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the
> resources and reputation of the company.

Which is harder if you the people you are borrowing from know that you have 
no way of spreading the risk.

> > compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a 
> spiral
> > -  we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet
> > all of  them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet
> > these costs.  Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have
> > previously paid  them, saving us in the long run, money.
> 
> Well, given that it's your fault, the insurance is likely to be reluctant 
> to
> pay anyway.

Fault is not always relevant from an insurance companies point of view. It 
may be stuck with representing you whether it likes it or not.

> > 
> > And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want
> > absorb  the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to
> > perform some  unplanned demolition on the local school district? 
> 
> Many real-world large companies do exactly that.
> 
Not the sensible ones,

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 21:13:08 GMT Daylight Time, ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; It&nbsp; has to be safe and readily available at all times.<BR>
<BR>
Nah.&nbsp; Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the<BR>
resources and reputation of the company.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Which is harder if you the people you are borrowing from know that you have no way of spreading the risk.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral<BR>
&gt; -&nbsp; we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet<BR>
&gt; all of&nbsp; them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet<BR>
&gt; these costs.&nbsp; Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have<BR>
&gt; previously paid&nbsp; them, saving us in the long run, money.<BR>
<BR>
Well, given that it's your fault, the insurance is likely to be reluctant to<BR>
pay anyway.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Fault is not always relevant from an insurance companies point of view. It may be stuck with representing you whether it likes it or not.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; <BR>
&gt; And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want<BR>
&gt; absorb&nbsp; the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to<BR>
&gt; perform some&nbsp; unplanned demolition on the local school district? <BR>
<BR>
Many real-world large companies do exactly that.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
Not the sensible ones,<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:58:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:58:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <103.13d0e078.29edea3d@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 21:33:55 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com 
writes:


> We could go on and discuss how reserves are handled, explain 
> the concept of the "book of business", and talk about 
> reinsurance.
> 
> IMTU I feel that ship insurance is handled much more like 
> Lloyd's (with individuals teaming up to take on risk) rather 
> than like the auto insurance model.  Starships seem so much 
> more risky than automobiles, and the payout on loss is so 
> high, that I can truly see it taking a form resembling 
> organized gambling (which is, after all, what Lloyd's is 
> running - the world's highest paying casino - hope you don't 
> lose).
> 

I like Lloyds - there's nothing more satisfying than watching the complacent 
rich get their come-uppance ;)

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 21:33:55 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">We could go on and discuss how reserves are handled, explain <BR>
the concept of the "book of business", and talk about <BR>
reinsurance.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU I feel that ship insurance is handled much more like <BR>
Lloyd's (with individuals teaming up to take on risk) rather <BR>
than like the auto insurance model.&nbsp; Starships seem so much <BR>
more risky than automobiles, and the payout on loss is so <BR>
high, that I can truly see it taking a form resembling <BR>
organized gambling (which is, after all, what Lloyd's is <BR>
running - the world's highest paying casino - hope you don't <BR>
lose).<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I like Lloyds - there's nothing more satisfying than watching the complacent rich get their come-uppance ;)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_103.13d0e078.29edea3d_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:59:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:59:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com>

Anthony Jackson writes:
<Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would 
work
reasonably well against just about any weapon.>

Ok, what is the difference between sand and chaff?  I always that chaff was 
strips of foil cut to a particular length of the
wavelength of a radar, and the sand in a sandcaster used particles of the 
correct size to interact with the laser wavelength.  I thought they were 
the same process.

John T. Kwon writes:
<As for a particle beam, the amount of material is so
miniscule, and so thinly spread (the beam is probably
neutrons), that sand would be useless. These beams are also
regarded as being more effective at penetrating armor (from
the point of view of the Air Force) than a laser. Both
radiation damage and deep heating are expected to occur with
a particle beam weapon>

That makes sense. (disclaimer, I am not a physicist, nor do I play one on 
TV).  Now I wonder if an X-ray laser would functionally
equivelent to a neutral particle beam? (in game terms)

I remember that in CT that one of the subjects of Imperial Research 
Stations was suggested to be X-ray lasers.  I have read somewhere that we 
can make X-ray lasers now.  In my campaigns I told the players that they 
were restricted military technology,
with the same penalties as possessing nuclear weapons.  (you got the death 
penalty)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <20020416.165610.-108551.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Congratulations!  The award is well deserved.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"


On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 07:23:41 -0400 Jeff Zeitlin
<editor@freelancetraveller.com> writes:
> I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
> protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make 
> Freelance
> Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
> flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, 
> I
> never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to 
> be
> _recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
> 
> Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who 
> has
> allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your 
> work
> more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As 
> long as
> you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; 
> people
> like you are too valuable to lose.
> 
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
> Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller 
> Resource
> http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
> http://www.freelancetraveller.com
> http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
> editor@freelancetraveller.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

                


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:01:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:01:31 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com> <3CBC7F09.6050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CBC9112.90505@telocity.com>

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>> Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
>> skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
>> They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
>> thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
>> in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
>> living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.
>
>
>
> Eris' methods:
>
> PC's inherit fine, functioning starship. PC's overjoyed, one 
> particularly stupid one makes dumb DUMB comments about how easy it'll 
> be to compete with ship owners who have a mortgage to pay. (Gee I 
> wonder who?;-)
>
> Bad guys steal ship.
>
> Space Patroooool to the Rescuuue! <sound of inspirational music, 
> punctuated by large explosions>
>
> Space Patrol "Here. We caught the hijackers and recovered your ship. 
> Thank us!"
>
> PC's "But there are large holes in our ship where there used to be a 
> jump drive, a drive controller, and a safe in the ship's locker"
>
> SP: "Well they didn't surrender peacefully. Thank us and don't ask 
> questions."
>
> PC's notice that SP officer is wearing secret police uniform."Thank you"
>
> PC's go to bank and get large loan to get ship flying again.
>
> <scrape scrape> Hold up cardboard signs "Will carry stuff for credits" 
> just like all the other free traders...

Ah! Bruce has devined my methods...I will have to be more subtle when 
next I raid their treasury. <g>

Eris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:03:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:03:15 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <F37TW5k1Ed28kIN4MmX00001857@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.132856.6I9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
> In mail, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote
>
>>
>>Space is *big*. And they'll be visible the whole time.
>>
>>That's the problem. there's a whole lot of nothing, and even a small
>>ship stands out like a sore thumb.
>>
>
> So how does a starship of say, 400Dtons (ISTR 'Patrol Cruisers' were one 
> ship of choice for the discerning Ethically Challenged Merchant*) compare to 
> a fairly small asteroid?  Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in 
> near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near 
> misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a 
> single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?

We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.

> Is that a pirate out there, or a customs ship making sure you are behaving 
> yourself, or a sensor glitch, or an asteroid, or...

Asteroids aren't moving at hundreds of km/sec. And they aren't going to
be on intercept courses either. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:03:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:03:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20020416031009.2bda525e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20416.134013.8u0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
>> things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
>> buildings and the like.
>
> Thank you for hitting me with the "stupid" stick for the second time in
> the last days, Leonard  :-)

Not stupid. Just a bad case of "oops!".

Remember, you only embarassed yourself on the list. Think of all the
folks involved with Babylon 5 who made the ""million tons of spinning
metal" goof in the opening sequence (hint: a mass of *air* the size of
babylon 5 weighs more than a million tons :-)

And I'm rather suspicious of the masses David Weber gives for a lot of
the ships in the Honor Harrington stuff too.

Like I said, we don't have experience with this sort of thing so we
have no judgement for the numbers involved.

> I'll crawl back into my dark corner now.

Nah, if everyone who goofed did that who'd be posting? :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:04:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:04:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8e0f93f2f0d@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20416.134553.3z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>>todal forces are the same.
>
> A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the 
> size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity 
> in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal 
> gradient.

Actually, the tidal force varies *linearly* with the distance from the
center of mass of the body experiencing the tidal forces. Not *quite*
the same thing as varying with the size. 

As a good example, consider some folks in spacesuits tethered to a
ship. The forces they experience depend on the distance and direction
from the ship, not on the size of the ship.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:04:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:04:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> For Mercury (5.43), Venus (5.24) and Earth (5.52), yes.
> For Mars (3.93), any Jovian moon (some of which are considered "rocky", e.g.
> Io, at 3.53), and a few others, no.
> Personally, I'd reckon that density can vary considerably even for rocky
> worlds, say from 3.0 to nearly 7.8 (almost totally iron) or 8.5+ (almost
> totally nickel).

There are "clusters". And it's *really* unlikely that any sizable body
will have a density much above Mercury's. At least in a "normal"
system. The planets that form around supernova remnants are likely to
be very different.

>> So if there's any sort of safety factor built in to the "100 diameter"
>> rule, it'll work fine except in *really* oddball situations (say trying
>> to jump close to a *big* nickel-iron asteroid).
>
> So ... if I had a planet with an extremely large Ni-Fe core, and a higher
> mean density as a result, say towards 6.5 or 7.0, then the 100D rule would
> not be good enough. Another hazard for exploring uncharted systems, I guess.

Ain't gonna happen. The abundance of materials in the cloud of dust and
gas a system forms from means that anything with a substantial iron
core will have a lot more rocky material overlying it. 

The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.

>> The details *do* matter, because the forces at the *hull* of even a
>> small ship will *exceed* those from a planet at 100 diameters. That's a
>> *unavoidable*.
>
> Leonard, please don't emphasise words with asterisks. It just makes
> things harder to read and comes over patronising, even if that's not
> intended.

> *Try* *reading* *this* *sentence* *to* *see* *what* *I* *mean*.

I'm not going to quit indicating emphasis. And the alternatives are
asterisks or underlines and the asterisks are much easier to hit. 

Yes, it's harder to read a sentence where you individually emphasize
each word with them. But that's not what I'm doing.

As for patronizing, I'm not responsible for what you read into what I
write.

> Also, if we have to handwave away the tidal gradient due to the
> ship's hull, then I'd argue that the tidal gradient is not the
> principal factor in a misjump, no matter how well the figures fit.

Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
something that will be directly proportional to it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <OF7A3367D5.83EB7401-ON85256B9D.0057F13F@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBC9264.2050709@telocity.com>

William Lane wrote:

>OBTRAV:
>
>The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
>Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
>engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
>Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
>other.
>
>Captain asks "What are you doing?"
>
>New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
>works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
>
>Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P
>
Okay, Greg, how much you going to pay me not to pass *this* one along to 
Misha? <g>

The gang in the Reaver's Deep game just hired a Vargr engineer (played 
by Misha). Her first action aboard the ship was to hang from an overhead 
pipe with her head in the jump drive while she "checked it out."  I'll 
let Captain Jason (Greg) tell you what happened next...<g>

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
 <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416161824.01e88790@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:22 PM 4/16/2002, Texas Redshift wrote:
>At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
>Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
>judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?  Does the Imperium have a civil 
>court and what jurisdiction does it assert? Is jury trial available?  Are 
>judges elected? Appointed?

All of the following should be prefixed with the comment that I'm referring 
to My Traveller Universe, and so this may not hold for anyone else.  I 
don't know what the Canon has to say on the matter; while a lot has been 
written about the various Traveller militaries, I don't think anyone has 
ever written a supplement about lawyers and lawsuits in the Imperium.  ;-)

First of all, following a general legal principle IMTU, if the parties in 
any sort of legal action are located on the same world, then the legal 
action is resolved using that world's laws, judicial system, and 
practices.  Member worlds can basically do anything that they would like in 
this arena, subject to some basic guidelines (recognition of Imperial 
currency, validity of Imperial contracts, laws, charters, etc.) that worlds 
agree to implement as a condition of membership in the Imperium.  Outside 
of those guidelines, member worlds can (and do) have just about any sort of 
legal system, from the King's justice dispensed at sword-point to a complex 
web of liability, contract, and insurance laws that makes the 21st-century 
USA look non-litigious.

Only when the issue involves more than one world does Imperial law 
apply.  The Imperium has basic contract and liability law, written (as are 
most Imperial laws) primarily for the benefit of interstellar trade, 
commerce (and therefore primarily of benefit to business that operate on an 
interstellar scale).  IMTU, Imperial (interstellar) society is not very 
litigious - partially due to the nature of the society (which prefers an 
out-of-court settlement of some type), and partially due to the high cost 
of bringing an interstellar suit.  IMTU the Imperium has both civil and 
criminal courts, both administered by the nobility.  In general, the case 
is heard in the plaintiff's venue.

If they press onward, the case is heard by a judge (jury trials are not 
available).  In some cases, the judge is the appropriate noble in person; 
but for the most part, judges are appointed by the noble to act in his or 
her stead.  Judges serve at the noble's convenience, and can be replaced by 
him or her at any time (but usually are not, and serve until they 
retire).  Appeals are possible up the chain of fealty (all the way to the 
Emperor, at least in theory).  In the case where a judge is appointed, an 
appeal directly to the noble who appointed him or her is also possible.  In 
all cases, appeals are unlikely to succeed.  Jury trials are not available.

Most nobles tend to view cases that actually come before them with a bit of 
prejudice "which of the parties is being stubborn and unwilling to settle 
out of court?"  The reputations of the lawyers representing the parties, 
and (particularly where large corporations are involved) the reputations of 
the parties themselves often has a large influence on the outcome of the 
trial:  "Bernard Hault-Wugga?  Aren't you Baron Wishaggga's son?  OK, 
Bernie, exactly how has SuSAG wronged your client?  They did what?  Oh, of 
course; how dreadful.  MCr 3 in putative damages sounds good.  See you at 
the Solar Yacht Race next week?  Good, tell you father hello from me."  (an 
extreme example, but no doubt it happens).

For role-playing purposes, this lets the referee be as arbitrary as needed 
(and also gives the players incentive to find some other way - any other 
way - of settling differences).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:09:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:09:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018991242.5758.ajackson@ping>

Dale Gyles writes:
> Anthony Jackson writes:
> <Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would 
> work
> reasonably well against just about any weapon.>
> 
> Ok, what is the difference between sand and chaff?

The purpose of chaff is obscuring sensors.  The purpose of sand, as described
in Traveller, is stopping weapons fire.

>  I always that chaff was
>  strips of foil cut to a particular length of the
> wavelength of a radar, and the sand in a sandcaster used particles of the 
> correct size to interact with the laser wavelength.  I thought they were 
> the same process.

Well, there's a fairly significant difference, in that radar does not generally
have the power to burn through an inch of steel.
> 
> That makes sense. (disclaimer, I am not a physicist, nor do I play one on 
> TV).  Now I wonder if an X-ray laser would functionally
> equivelent to a neutral particle beam? (in game terms)

No, though a gamma ray laser would be fairly similar (somewhat different
penetration).
> 
> I remember that in CT that one of the subjects of Imperial Research 
> Stations was suggested to be X-ray lasers.  I have read somewhere that we 
> can make X-ray lasers now.  In my campaigns I told the players that they 
> were restricted military technology,
> with the same penalties as possessing nuclear weapons.  (you got the death 
> penalty)

I seem to recall something about X-ray lasers being developed, but they're not
exactly weapons-grade.  The old SDI people talked about bomb-pumped X-ray
lasers, a mechanism which AFAIK has never been successfully demonstrated, not
that this prevent people from using it in SF.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:02:50 +1000, Timothy Little
> <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:
>
>>JR Holmes wrote:
>>> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force
>>> upon itself
>>
>>You are.  This is very important in determining Roche's limit, for
>>example.
>
> I remain unconvinced in this regard.  "Roche's Limit is the distance
> from a planet inside which a satellite will be torn apart by tidal
> forces." (from http://www.cvc.org/astronomy/roche_limit.htm) or
> "Roche's Limit, which is the distance from a planet at which the
> planet's tidal force on a satellite (tending to stretch apart) is
> equal to the satellite's self-gravity (tending to hold it together)."
> (from http://utrao.as.utexas.edu/ast301/log/log22.html)
>
> As per the above, Roche's Limit is where these tidal forces (a
> tensional force) equal the compressional forces of an object's own
> gravity.  But this is in regard to the tidal forces exerted _with
> regard to another body_.  Without the other body, no tidal force.
>
> It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In another
> of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional and
> compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive me if
> I am interpreting you incorrectly).  I believe you are in error in
> this regard.  As per the above, the compressional forces are due to
> the object's self-gravity and only the tensional forces are due to the
> influence of another body and therefore are tidal forces.

No. Tidal forces are *away* from the center of the satellite along the
line joining it to the primary (ie the side closest to the primary is
pulled towards the primary, and the side opposite the primary is pulled
*away* from the primary. 

But the forces in the plane perpendicular to that line are *towards*
the center of the satellite. 

so if you were orbiting close to a neutron star in a space suit, your
feet would be pulled towards the star, your head would be pulled away
from it and your waist would be getting squeezed. 

Look at it like this. If you are orbiting, the center of your body is
moving at the right speed in the right direction. It's in freefall. 

But a point farther from the primary, if left to itself would be
traveling in a *different* orbit. With a different velocity. Ditto for
points closer to the primary, and for point "ahead" or "behind" the
center. And the same foes for point to the "left" and "right" of the
center.

The points closer to and farther from the primary would be moving *away*
from the center if they weren't attached. The ones ahead, behind and to
the sides would be moving *closer* to the center.

And that's essentially where the forces come from. Self gravity of the
body has nothing to do with it, and, in fact for a body that has to
worry about the Roche Limit, the forces *far* exceed its self gravity.

Get a copy of Dr. Robert Forward's book "Indistinguishable from Magic".
It's got a chapter on tidal forces, complete with diagrams and formulas.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <158.c6ba94a.29ede9ff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018991982.113.ajackson@ping>

CHam628781@aol.com writes:
> > Nah.  Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the
> > resources and reputation of the company.
> 
> Which is harder if you the people you are borrowing from know that you have
>  no way of spreading the risk.

Right, but the point is you don't need to have _ready_ cash.  You just need
assets which can be used to back a loan.
> 
> Fault is not always relevant from an insurance companies point of view. It 
> may be stuck with representing you whether it likes it or not.

Depends on how the insurance contract was written.

> > Many real-world large companies do exactly that.
> > 
> Not the sensible ones,

Many real-world companies are only insured for extremely large losses; you just
set the deductible high enough that it absorbs the vast majority of problems
directly.  Beyond a certain point, it's better for a company to risk going
bankrupt due to a major problem than pay out huge premiums (arguably,
bankruptcy law is itself a form of insurance).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:26:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:26:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Bruce Johnson asks
> 
>>How long did your party survive before the local residents 
>>rounded you  up and hung you?
>>
> 
> That was the problem.  They had friends.  We got back to 
> town, and they heard about it.  Later that day, when we were 
> strolling into the front foyer of the guest house were were 
> staying at, three men stepped into the room and opened up on 
> us with submachineguns.  Of the six people in our party, one 
> survived.  The three attackers died, but the locals were 
> steamed enough to shoot the survivor after hearing his tale.

I suspect the locals were *more* steamed about the firefights going on 
in public spaces. I'd wager that the 3 surviving members of that guys 
friends were fined heavily for the damage.

> It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
> principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
> friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
> received.

The real key to this is to understand what a LL0 world is like.

Probably quite polite and formal, since it's likely heavily armed...and 
the local citizenry is entirely likely to feel that maintaining public 
order is incumbent on all members of society, as well as enforcement, 
since LL0 worlds tend also to be low GOV worlds too.

A good one to spring on a bunch of unsuspecting PC's...land them 
someplace they're expecting to be Dodge City, and discover that it's 
anything but, that their 'uncivilized' behavior is quickly, but firmly 
corrected...permanently, if necessary...think a Heinleinian world of 
self-reliant, armed and polite strangers...
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBC9A4C.4000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

William Lane wrote:

> 
> Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
> everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
> info.

That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
XML to Cobol and back...

oBTRav> Captain finds engineer hip deep in the Jump drive controller 
with an exceptionally old-looking piece of hardware in his hands.

Captain: "Good lord, Scottie! That's a jump *tape* reader! What is that 
antique doing on my jump drive??"

Engineer: "Well Captain, we cannae find the right components to rrepair 
the drive controller. Urgvark" he points to a crazed looking Vargr 
assistant engineer, "...found this in a antique shop. We're tying it 
into the saircuit right now."

C: "But how will we control it? I haven't seen a jump tape in my life 
that wasn't in a museum!"

E:"Well Captain, I have a writing head from a holocorder here, we can 
connect it to the main computer, and have it translate the control 
instructions from the astrogation program to the correct patterns that a 
jump tape would have. It should work, in theory, sah. " Shouts "OK 
Urgvark! Give me some power..."

<SNAP> <Pop fsssssshhhhhh> "Turn it off! Turn it off!"

E: Through the smoke..."Ahh captain, we're going ta need some morrre 
time..."

C: weeps.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018993271.7515.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
> The real key to this is to understand what a LL0 world is like.
> 
> Probably quite polite and formal, since it's likely heavily armed...and 
> the local citizenry is entirely likely to feel that maintaining public 
> order is incumbent on all members of society, as well as enforcement, 
> since LL0 worlds tend also to be low GOV worlds too.

Well, the majority of LL0 worlds are very lightly populated as well, and quite
likely don't have much of anything recognizeable as 'public order' -- just some
isolated people.  Of course, then you have worlds like Efate.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:32 PM +1000 4/16/02, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
>(of radiation effects on fertility)
>>  Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in
>>  men, if you prefer)?
>
>Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
>the testis to ionising radiation.

Though it will need to be more pentrating since the ovaries are 
deeper in the body so it will depend on the kind of radiation? 
(Though it maybe that this is getting into to much details for rpgs 
that usualy feature "radiation").

>
>Larsen Whipsnade wrote :-
>>  GURPS, in Compendium II, handles this in the following manner.
>>  If a female has a lifetime dose of 250 rads, her offspring, and
>>  any problems they may have, are entirely at the GM's discretion.
>There probably won't be any offspring (permanent sterility in 75%).
>
>>  Realistic?  Yes.
>Nah, in GURPS it's usually an excuse for the GM to introduce Weird
>Mutant Powers (TM) <g>

I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the 
fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018978883.2225.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1018978883.2225.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330108b8e24c8654f3@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:41 AM -0700 4/16/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Texas Redshift writes:
>>  As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
>>  something:
>>
>>  At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
>>  Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
>>  judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
>
>Depends on the world.  There are canon references to 'government of men, not
>laws', which implies on the interstellar level it's not litigous per se, and
>annoying the local judge with frivolous suits is probably a poor idea.

That is consistent with a world where corporations conduct morally 
challenged acts without being continuously in court (to, at one 
extreme, being able to conduct trade wars on each other).

Also, if megacorps are as powerful as they are depicted, then should 
be able to avoid a situations where it is "easy" to sue them.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <20416.132856.6I9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.132856.6I9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330109b8e24d6388f8@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:28 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in
>  > near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near
>>  misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a
>>  single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?
>
>We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
>outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.

We are looking.  There is a program underway to catalog Earth 
crossing asteroids....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134553.3z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.134553.3z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010ab8e24dae9b06@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:45 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>>>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>>>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>>>todal forces are the same.
>>
>>  A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the
>>  size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity
>>  in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal
>>  gradient.
>
>Actually, the tidal force varies *linearly* with the distance from the
>center of mass of the body experiencing the tidal forces. Not *quite*
>the same thing as varying with the size.

The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also 
true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to 
another will depend on how far apart they are.

>
>As a good example, consider some folks in spacesuits tethered to a
>ship. The forces they experience depend on the distance and direction
>from the ship, not on the size of the ship.

True.  Though the difference in force between the guy in the space 
suit different parts of the ship will depend on the size of the ship.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <15c.be25cf3.29ede8fa@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 04:52:10PM -0400
References: <15c.be25cf3.29ede8fa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020416155914.C13552@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 04:52:10PM -0400, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> No, insurance companies tend to insure themselves against risk as well.

Yeah--from other insurance companies.  But there's no magic there: a
company as large as that collection of insurance companies can insure
itself.

And yes, if enough bad things happen at once the insurance system
would fail, just as a company would fail if it self-insured.

Generally, if you can afford it, self-insurance makes much more sense.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the people of
the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own
arms.                            --Samuel Adams, brewer and patriot

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020416081241.C25846@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.141048.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Both methane and ammonia will burn with oxygen. So you crack some water
>> (thermally or via electrolysis) and use the oxygen to burn the methane
>> and ammonia to N2, H20 & CO2. You condense the H20 and crack it to get
>> back the oxygen. The CO2 and N2 get either discrard or fed into the
>> life support system's atomosphere reprocessing section. 
>
> I don't see what I get from this.
>
> IMTU, there is only a small tank capable of holding LHyd with all the
> associated cryogenic systems, ultralow temperature pumps and such
> expensive stuff.  It primarily feeds the jump drive when entering
> jump.  The rest of the fuel space is designed to hold water which I
> can slowly refine using a fuel processor during jump.

If you are tanking from a body that has ammonia and/or methane in
addition to the water, you can shovel "ice" (or pump liquid
ammonia/methane) into a holding tank. It's not that hard to seperate
the methane, ammonia and water. And you'd need to be able to do that to
refuel from the colder iceballs anyway.

In the OTU, the tankage is for liquid hydrogen. If you are grabbing
water or whatever to "wilderness refuel" you have to extract and
liquefy the hydrogen before storing it in the tanks.

And BTW, you have to do more than just *cool* the hydrogen to get
liquid hydrogen. There are two forms of the hydrogen molecule. One has
the spins of the atoms parallel, the other has them opposing. 

One form is slightly more energetic than the other and left to itself,
will spontaneously convert to the lower energy form, releasing heat.
This takes place slowly. 

Unfortunately, it also releases enough heat to boil LH2! So you have to
use special catlysts to ensure that all the hydrogen is converted to
the low energy form before you put it in the tanks. Otherwise, the
spontaneous conversion will boil the tanks dry in a few hours. 

NASA had great fun with this problem until they found the catalysts
(fairly cheap, but they do add another step to the process of making
fuel). 

Because of this, converting water to LH2 on the fly isn't going to work
for stuff like the jump drive. You need the required fuel stored *as*
LH2 before you start.

> So the limit on how much fuel I can hold is how much oxygen is
> available to bind the hydrogen into water for my large (and cheap)
> tanks.  Discarding CO2 from burning methane is hence worse than just
> throwing away the methane.  I might extract some nitrogen from the
> ammonia to replenish any atmosphere losses, but that's about it.

No, because you aren't getting *hydrogen* when you refuel from an
iceball, just when you refuel by scooping a gas giant. And in that
case, you'll need a *lot* of oxygen, and need it fast. Check out how
much space *8* tons (mass) of liquid oxygen takes up. Because you'll
need 8 tons of oxygen for every ton of hydrogen. Remember, it takes
*nine* tons of water to produce *one* ton of hydrogen. And you'll have
to have to have *seperate* tanks for the 9 tons of water, the 8 tons of
LOX, and the 1 ton of LH2.

Storing *just* LH2 is a *lot* simpler.

When you refuel from an iceball you are getting one of the following:

Water
Water and ammonia
Water, ammonia and methane

So, as I said, you extract the oxygen from the water and store the
hydrogen.

You then use the extracted oxygen to convert the ammonia into
nitrogen and water. You keep as much of the nitrogen as you want, and
discard the rest. The water gets converted to LH2 and oxygen (ie you
*recover* the oxygen you extracted from the water you "mined").

Next, you use the oxygen (still not touching your original oxygen
supplies on board the ship) to convert the methane to CO2 and water.
The water gets processed as before, giving hydogen and oxygen.

You can either discard the CO2, *or* you can feed it thru the section
of your life support system that cracks CO2 into carbon and oxygen. And
yes, given a fusion power plant, as well as cryogenic gear, this is a
reasonable way of dealing with CO2 on board a ship. 

Matter of fact, odds are that part of the "filters" in the life support
system ammount to condensing excess water out of the air (there will
*always* be excess water as we produce it from the hydrogen in our food
and the oxygen we breathe). 

Next, the air will be flash heated (with or without a catalyst) to burn
all organic gases. Finally, a catalyst will be used to break down any
nitrogen oxides formed by the flash heating, and the O2 and N2 will be
put back in circulation, while the CO2 will be cracked into carbon and
oxygen. And actual chemical filters will deal with any remaining
contaminants (traces of stuff like chlorine & sulfur compounds, etc)

It's possible that smaller ships (and auxilluary craft) will just use
chemical filters to extract water vapor, CO2, and other contaminants).
LiOH to extract CO2, Various other things to extract water vapor, and
activated charcoal to get (most) of the other trace gases. 

But those will need changing and require "recharging" (basicly you heat
them to drive off the water/CO2/whatever).

Anyway, ships will be able to deal with converting CO2 to carbon and
oxygen. Getting rid of the carbon from processing a lot of methane will
be a major pain though. Some poor crewbeing will probably have to
either "shovel" what amounts to soot out of the gear and haul it to an
airlock to dump, or maybe (if you process stuff a bit differently) chop
slabs of graphite out of the processor. And, again dump them.

So methane would be something you might *not* want to process. But
there will be times when it's worth the hassle. 

Oh yeah, actually, the odds are you'd seperate the methane *first*,
simply because it will be the first component of the mix to turn into a
gas.

         melts   boils
         ------  ------
methane	 -182.4  -161.5
ammonia   -77.4   -33.3
water       0     100

So, as you heat the mix, first the methane liquefies, then it
vaporizes. You can discard it, or use oxygen to process it. Or, if you
do this a lit, you might have gear set up to directly crack the methane
into hydogen and carbon.

Next the ammonia liquefies and then vaporizes. And then when the water
melts, it would get dissolved in the water (great if you are
electrolyzing water, not so great otherwise). 

Again, you can either "burn" the ammonia with oxygen (I use quotes
because there are catalysts that'll make it happen at much lower temps)
or you might be equiped to "crack" it into nitrogen and hydrogen.
Cracking won't work nearly as well though, since both components are
gasses. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:08:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:08:41 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020416155310.3125.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20416.150551.5I5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> ObTrav:  There is a (Star Trek created?) stereotype of
> the engineer who can fix anything but no one can tell
> how he does it.  What other stereotypes are common in
> your games?

The "engineer as wizard" stereotype has existed *at least* as long as
widespread use of steam engines. And some would argue it goes back to
the old seige engineers of medieval and Roman times.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:09:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:09:19 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20416.150857.9F1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 02:16 PM 4/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>>
>> > In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
>> > starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
>> > stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
>>
>>Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right when the user no
>>longer understands what's going on behind the 'curtain'.
>
> Hell, for me that's today!  I can use my comp[uter, but for all I know, 
> this beige box is actually home to a tribe of magic pixes.

(uh-oh, he's beginning to catch on! :-)

> I still find it amazing and rather magical that this little bit of dreck 
> will be read by people on the other side of the planet (hi Jens and Hans!) 
> I sort of understand that it will be shuffled around by a lot of computers 
> that do that sort of thing, but beyond that?  Nothing.

It's actually *not* all that hard to understand. Really. But it
involves paying more attention to *details* than most folks care to. 

> "Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
>   with sex." - Fry, Futurama

Hmm. Must be looking at the wrong sites. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <OF7A3367D5.83EB7401-ON85256B9D.0057F13F@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <20416.151127.3N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> OBTRAV:
>
> The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
> Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
> engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
> Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
> other.
>
> Captain asks "What are you doing?"
>
> New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
> works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
>
> Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P

An *intelligent* captain will just chalk it up to "personal quirks" as
long as the job gets done. And if things seem to be working better than
he'd expect, he may wind up asking the engineer for more info about
Jabobo. <g>

If it works, don't knock it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com> <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net> <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020417081359.A28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> "Roche's Limit, which is the distance from a planet at which the
> planet's tidal force on a satellite (tending to stretch apart) is
> equal to the satellite's self-gravity (tending to hold it together)."
> (from http://utrao.as.utexas.edu/ast301/log/log22.html)

Anaother way to say the same thing is "where the net tidal gradient
becomes tensional in at least one direction".  Self-gravity *is* a
tidal force.


> As per the above, Roche's Limit is where these tidal forces (a
> tensional force) equal the compressional forces of an object's own
> gravity.

The compressional forces of an object's own gravity *are* tidal
gradients.  Roche's limit is where the sum of the external and
internal tides cancel (in one direction) for a body of given
composition.


> It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In
> another of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional
> and compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive
> me if I am interpreting you incorrectly).

Yes.  Consider a near-massless spaceship somewhere near the Earth,
with bow pointing directly outward from it.  A point on the bow is a
bit further from the Earth than the center, so the gravitational
attraction toward Earth's center is weaker.  Likewise, the
gravitational attraction is stronger at the stern.  This is the
tensional aspect of the tidal gradient.

Now consider points on the port and starboard.  Both feel the same
magnitude of gravitational acceleration, but the *direction* is
different.  The vector difference between the two results in an inward
(compressional) force.  Likewise for the "top" and "bottom" of the
ship.

So the external tides exert a compression force as well as a tensional
one.


Now consider a spacecraft with significant density.  In this case, the
same argument applies to give a tensional gradient (due to the Earth),
but now you have to add the self-gravity.  The bow experiences a weak
Earthward acceleration due to self-gravity, and the stern experiences
an outward force.  This sums with the Earth's tidal force to give a
result that could be either tensional or compressional, depending on
how close to Earth the starship is and on what it's density is.
(Compressional far from the Earth, possibly tensional closer in).

The top and bottom of the ship are subject to a sum of compressional
forces alone.


The actual mathematics is much simpler in many regards than the
example, but the result is the same.  The tidal gradient at any given
point is expressed as a matrix, with trace equal to the density at the
point in question.  The eigenvalues and eigenvectors of the matrix
tell you the magnitude and directions of the forces due to the
gradient.  Even a pebble in otherwise completely empty space has tidal
gradients inside and out, and those gradients are not appreciably
weaker than the tidal gradients around and within the Moon.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020417082001.B28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.

Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
a nitpick.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3cbf94aa.16351970@post.demon.co.uk>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

>That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
>wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
>convincing opposing argument:-)

What if you're charged by n+1 people with pointy sticks, where n is
the number of bullets you're carrying?

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:34:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3CBC7D4F.7020102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200204161741.EEV03115@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416183650.00b8f070@urbin.net>

At 12:36 PM 4/16/02 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>John T. Kwon wrote:
>>I got out of the car with the others, and asked the other driver if he 
>>had insurance.  He said, "No."  So I said to my friends, "I think we 
>>should wait for the police."  They laughed and said, "Hey stupid, there 
>>are no police."
>>So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the occupants of the 
>>other car without warning.  Then we went through their pockets for loose 
>>change.
>How long did your party survive before the local residents rounded you up 
>and hung you?

That's why he should have checked for witnesses first.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:35:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:35:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>

Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:

>>Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =3D20
>
>Shouldnt the hull code be Z? I though Y was for 1,000,000 to=20
>1,999,999. Z was for anything above that.=20

Y is for 1,000,000 to "the next stated level" - but there isn't one,
so I'm assuming it's just "over a million tons".  Z is "Reserved".

>>MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
>Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
>Architects fees? Anyone?

Standard cost.  If you *really* want to start mass-producing these
things, you scare me ;-)

I didn't include the architect's fees, but they'd be TCr 376,770.  The
kind of contract every naval architect dreams of.

Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:39:03 2002
Subject: Engineer Voodoo (was: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?)
References: <20416.151127.3N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CBCA7CB.11BDF34@premier.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > OBTRAV:
> >
> > The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
> > Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
> > engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
> > Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
> > other.
> >
> > Captain asks "What are you doing?"
> >
> > New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
> > works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
> >
> > Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P
> 
> An *intelligent* captain will just chalk it up to "personal quirks" as
> long as the job gets done. And if things seem to be working better than
> he'd expect, he may wind up asking the engineer for more info about
> Jabobo. <g>

Actually, given that "Voodoo is an animist faith. That is, objects and
natural phenomena are believed to possess holy significance, to possess
a soul [*]," this seems a not-unreasonable belief system for an engineer
to have, assuming that additional syncretism has added technology to the
Voodoo gumbo.

Imagine if the engineer's version of Voodoo included the Evangelicals'
drive to proselytize:

"Have you accepted Jabobo as your personal Loa?" ;-)

[*] Quoted from the following Web site:

http://www.swagga.com/voodoo.htm

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3cbf94aa.16351970@post.demon.co.uk>; from tml@stempest.demon.co.uk on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:20:42PM +0000
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net> <3cbf94aa.16351970@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020416164940.A14019@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:20:42PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> 
> >That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
> >wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
> >convincing opposing argument:-)
> 
> What if you're charged by n+1 people with pointy sticks, where n is
> the number of bullets you're carrying?

That's why the steel.  And if the number of people involved >> n/2,
then I'm probably going to be running anyway:-)

Of course, all this is silly because I've never been attacked and
don't typically engage in activities which increase my risk of being
attacked.  I'm a rather quiet sort.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20416.141048.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020416081241.C25846@freeman.little-possums.net> <20416.141048.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> And BTW, you have to do more than just *cool* the hydrogen to get
> liquid hydrogen. There are two forms of the hydrogen molecule. One has
> the spins of the atoms parallel, the other has them opposing. 

I'm quite aware of that.  I'm also aware of various maethods for
dealing with it at *our* tech level, let alone TL10.


> Because of this, converting water to LH2 on the fly isn't going to
> work for stuff like the jump drive.

That's why I said that there is an auxiliary fuel tank for the jump
drive.  Besides, does it say anywhere that the jump drive actually
needs *liquid* hydrogen, or is that just how it is stored prior to
use?

IMTU, it needs pure hydrogen.  The physical form is preferably ionised
at a temperature of a few hundred thousand degrees, but it needs a
*lot*, *fast*.  It's a bit hard to store tonnes of 100+ kK plasma for
any length of time, and LH2 is a nice compact way to hold pure
hydrogen ready for injection.


> You need the required fuel stored *as* LH2 before you start.

Even if this was true, that's exactly what the canonical "fuel
processor" does.  It converts impure hydrogen and hydrogen compounds
(such as water) into LH2.  It even gives a rate at which it produces
the stuff.  Do you exclude fuel processors from your Traveller
universe?  That's what it sounds like.


> Check out how much space *8* tons (mass) of liquid oxygen takes up.

I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?

When I scoop ice from an iceball, I get lots of hydrogen in the form
of water.  Water is a more compact way to store hydrogen than LH2.  So
I *keep* the water.  I run the ammonia, methane, or some more water
through the fuel processor to fill up the smaller LH2 tanks (possibly
extracting some nitrogen for life support), throw away all the
methane, and either keep or throw away the ammonia.


> And you'll have to have to have *seperate* tanks for the 9 tons of
> water, the 8 tons of LOX, and the 1 ton of LH2.

No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.

The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.


> Oh yeah, actually, the odds are you'd seperate the methane *first*,
> simply because it will be the first component of the mix to turn
> into a gas.

Yep, mainly so I can get rid of it before putting it in the tanks at
all.  Ammonia I can deal with later, since I don't need highly
expensive long-term cryogenic tanks to hold ammonia solution.  I can
separate it later if I want.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Refining Fuel
Message-ID: <200204162252.EFF02983@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ok, so can I put solid rock in the refiner?

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%
7B1F54AEED-A34B-411B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com> <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020417085805.D28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Of course :)

It varies with which rules, time period, and dataset you use, but my
figures are on the order of 100 PCr/year.  Never seen a 'P' prefix
used before?  10^15, in case anyone was wondering ;)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:59:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:59:38 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020416190105.CB76627A2E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020416155253.00a4d980@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:38:41 -0400, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

>Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from
>the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
>again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up
>during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and
>said, "Behold, Our God!".

"Glory be to the Bomb, and to the Holy Fallout, as it was in the Beginning."

Put me down as another half-kill.  (I rarely drink at the keyboard.  Not 
while reading THIS list, anyway.)

It's sure nice to find out what sort of people were guarding our nuclear 
deterrent, back in the bad old days.



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:01:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:01:09 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/16/02 3:50 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
> over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
> LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
> unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
> paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.
> 
> The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
> volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
> water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
> upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.
> 

Just curious, but what about storing H2 as hydrides?  Don't you get a higher
density?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:06:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:06:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Damn mind rapers
Message-ID: <20020416230522.61559.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

<Arlin J. Schofield- OC>
P2GM - Hey John, what is the general level of public
acceptance of psi's. I'm sure the military characters
who have been in action against the zho's (like Arlin)
wont be to comfartable with a psi around. I think
unless the public don't mind psi's that those
discussing them should at least try to be quiet ;)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <200204161837.EEX02352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.155109.2O0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The spot size for the projected SBL is around a foot in 
> diameter. The US Air Force is assuming that missiles will be 
> painted or coated to optimize reflectivity, and they also 
> anticipate that the missiles will spin to reduce the 
> effectiveness of the laser.  "Sand" or some sort of 
> particulate matter that interferes with the operation of the 
> beam, would have to be held in close proximity to the ship.  
> The beam has such a small spot size, that to effectively 
> maintain a density of sand which would reduce the 
> effectiveness of the beam means that you cannot allow it to 
> disperse.  There are also plasmas that can be formed that 
> might increase the reflectivity of the ship itself at the 
> expense of increasing the ship''s signature.

Check for old discussions of how sand probably works.

A summary is:

the particles are spheres, and highly refactive at laser wavelengths.
Thus a portion of the beam will be refelected back at the source
(helping to blind sensors) before absorbed beam energy can disrupt the
particle. And the portion of the energy that is transmitted is
defocused. 

The particles take a fair amount of energy to melt. While molten they
continue to retro-reflect part of the beam and disperse the rest.

They take even more energy to vaporize and form a plasma easily. The
plasma is opaque to laser energy and absorbs even *more* of the beam
energy.

So yet get some sensor blinding for free, and the plasma generation
makes the required sand density much lower than would otherwise be
required. 

This would also make for nice visual effects as beams hit clouds of sand.

> The main way that the SBL intends to defeat reflective 
> coatings, spinning, heavier construction, ablative coatings, 
> and other countermeasures is to scale up the power.  In the 
> case of missiles, they give good arguments as to why the 
> countermeasures are, within an ability to hold the beam on 
> target for four seconds, ineffective.  That is, with current 
> tech, the coatings and spinning are already factored into the 
> laser's design.  

Well, in space, outside of low orbit, stuff like sand and "smoke" tend
to be rather more effective, because they don't get left behind. 

They don't make it impossible to zap the target, just harder.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:08:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:08:35 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20416.152426.1u5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:36:12AM +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
>> 
>> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
>> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
>> to see is a cloud of dust ;)
>
> Unless he's the faster...
>
> That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
> wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
> convincing opposing argument:-)

Perhaps you've heard the story about two hikers confronted by a bear.
One starts running and the oother follows. The second gasps why "why
are you running, the bear can outrun us"

The first replies "I don't need to outriun *him*. Just *you*!"

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:09:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:09:14 2002
Subject: [TML] CT/Book 5 question
In-Reply-To: <200204160206.EDP04153@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.152658.1R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> OK.  Actually a Book 5 question.  Ship has partial 
> streamlining. Under the rules, it can do gas giant 
> refueling.  If it can move through an upper atmosphere like 
> that (presumably at some velocity - after all, we don't want 
> to spiral in), can you land such a ship on a world with a 
> standard atmosphere?

As I recall, partial streamlining does allow landing on such a world.

> How does an air/raft do it?  1-G acceleration.  You're riding 
> in a vehicle about the size of a HMMWV with the top down.

> Feel that wind in your hair...

Not necessarily. It can simply climb vertically (and slowly) until it
is out of the atmosphere. Then it can accerlerate until it reaches
orbital *velocity. 

Remember, it's *much* easier to reach orbital *altitude* than orbital
velocity. That's the principle behind several weapons for taking out
low altitude satellites. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:09:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:09:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.153558.2c9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
> something:
>
> At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
> Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
> judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
>
> Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
> Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?
>
> What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?

I don't think canon covers it. But given some of the things that canon
sources have going on, I suspect that "frivilous" lawsuits are
discouraged in some manner. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:11:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:11:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417085805.D28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018998647.1051.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?
> 
> Of course :)
> 
> It varies with which rules, time period, and dataset you use, but my
> figures are on the order of 100 PCr/year.  Never seen a 'P' prefix
> used before?  10^15, in case anyone was wondering ;)

Hm...my figure seems to be at 103PCr/year, which is well within the margin of
error.  Of course, there's a fairly significant problem with the old Atlas of
the Imperium data -- there's only around 9,000 imperial worlds, not the 11,000
there's supposed to be.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018998784.5627.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
> over

Which is, based on the existence of drop tanks, equal to the total fuel
requirement of jump.  Water tanks are mostly useful for jumping _twice_.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:14:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:14:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Indistinguishable from Magic
In-Reply-To: <20020416190105.CB76627A2E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020416160033.00a50b10@mailhost.efn.org>

(was: How many credits is that?)

For a while now, I've taken Clarke's Law to apply all the way back to the 
first simple machines.  To someone who's never seen one before, even a 
lever is magical:  you push DOWN, and a much heavier thing on the other end 
goes UP, easily.  Thus, any technology that exceeds the capabilities of the 
unaided human body (strength, sight, speed, etc) is "magic."

It can even be argued that knowing (or thinking one knows) how something 
works does not make it less magic.  Surely the hypothetical medieval wizard 
would know as much about the alchemical and astrological correspondences, 
sacred geometry, the names of angels, and other important data about his 
profession as a telecom engineer does about phones and networks and 
switches.  And each would be equally convinced the other was practicing 
black witchcraft.

And I note that people still leave out tributes to faeries - only now they 
call them gremlins or Greys, to name but two of the new forms.

--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:16:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:16:55 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020416231354.82331.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's
going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

What, because you have dust in your veins instead of
blood?  ;-)
END QUOTE

No, because I am a vampire from buffy:the vampire
slayer ;P

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020416231641.82811.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Unless he's the faster...

That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy
stick all he wants.  But my lead and steel can, I
feel, come up with quite a convincing opposing
argument:-)
END QUOTE

Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
pointy stick :)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:18:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:18:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204150043.RAA22864@molly.iii.com> from "Anthony Jackson" at Apr 14, 2002 05:43:03 PM
Message-ID: <200204162126.g3GLQsn00991@localhost.uia.net>

> Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
> network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
> just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.
> 
> In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
> a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
> wormholes have to share a reference frame.

I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20416.155109.2O0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018999846.3010.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
> 
> The particles take a fair amount of energy to melt. While molten they
> continue to retro-reflect part of the beam and disperse the rest.
> 
> They take even more energy to vaporize and form a plasma easily. The
> plasma is opaque to laser energy and absorbs even *more* of the beam
> energy.

Now, let's consider a typical example: a typical TTL13 X-ray laser.  It focuses
to a beam 1 cm wide, with an unclear duration; we'll assume 100 milliseconds,
as that will avoid significant problems with the beam impact point moving.  The
total beam energy is on the order of 400 megajoules, and has a damage value
(T4) of 50.

The target is a 200 dton sphere, with a cross-section of 240 square meters. 
One can at AV 50 is 320 kilograms.  Since the beam has a cross-section of
0.0001 m^2, it actually strikes 0.13 grams of sand.

As it happens, X-rays can go through that much material without even worrying
about getting it out of the way.  Ignoring that, if we assume the 'sand' is
synthetic diamond, it has a heat of vaporization of 8 kilojoules.  Further
ignoring the fact that X-rays don't generally reflect very well, through a
variety of tricks we'll argue that the actual energy of vaporization is 1
megajoule (125x greater).

399 megajoules to go.  Well, perhaps the vapor is opaque.  Let's add another
megajoule to the vapor, heating it up to some obscene temperature, and assume
that 90% of the absorbed energy is lost to immediate reradiation.  The
remaining 100 kilojoules causes the gas in the path of the laser to explode
outwards, with an average velocity of 39 kilometers per second.  1 microsecond
later, the plasma has had its density drop by a factor of around 10, which
should allow the X-rays to shine through.  Since the power output is 4
megajoules per microsecond, the total energy absorbed by the sand is maybe 5
megajoules.  Gee, only another 80x increase in efficiency and we'll actually
stop the beam.

> Well, in space, outside of low orbit, stuff like sand and "smoke" tend
> to be rather more effective, because they don't get left behind. 

Well, if you don't use any thrust and use gravetics to prevent the stuff from
wandering, sure.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204162126.g3GLQsn00991@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019000154.7419.ajackson@ping>

jimv writes:

> I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim

All methods of using FTL to accomplish time travel rely on the fact that for
any form of FTL movement, there exists a reference frame where in some
direction or another, the FTL movement appears to be going backwards in time. 
Therefore, you move, shift velocity to a different reference frame, and then
reverse the trip.  The trip took positive time according to the ship's onboard
time, but negative time according to an outside observer.

If you require that all FTL movement occur within a single reference frame, you
can't change reference frames to make the round trip, and total trip time
always remains positive, though different reference frames will disagree as to
how the time requirement was divided up, and may claim that certain sections of
the trip took negative amounts of time.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damn mind rapers
Message-ID: <200204162344.EFH02038@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Psis are a military and internal security necessity.  I think 
that the whole B5 attitude towards them was pretty good.  
IBIS makes covert use of them.  The military intel people 
make use of them.  For some reason Vilani and Solomani aren't 
any good at PK or teleportation. That's something the Zhodani 
are good at.  Of course, it's not secret in the Zhodani 
Consulate - it's a way of life.

People do tend to dislike them, but that's the popular view.  
Many corporations use telepaths to verify truth and intent 
when signing major contracts.

Then again, they aren't common.  IBIS has a special division 
that trains them.  Rumor has it that they *are* the Psionics 
Institute.  One more reason that people don't trust the 
trained ones.  Untrained, well, some people can't help the 
way they were born.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
Message-ID: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see 
<http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file 
their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).

Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and 
although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the 
end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned 
for a financial year until after you've earned it.

Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
timetable works??

[ BTW, I'm only asking for a quick reply to a query. Anything further 
(anti-IRS rants, full 20-page technical descriptions of the US economy, 
etc etc) probably should go to the discussion list.  %^P  ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <3CBD64AF.31847.709971@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 20:32, Robert O'Connor wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
> (of radiation effects on fertility)
> > Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
> > men, if you prefer)?
> 
> Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
> the testis to ionising radiation.

How penetrating is ionising radiation in general? If it's not very 
penetrating there should be some adjustment made to allow for the 
ovaries being protected by being inside, rather than outside the torso.
 

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:04:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:04:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20416.134013.8u0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020416031009.2bda525e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CBD64AF.11090.709A27@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 13:40, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> And I'm rather suspicious of the masses David Weber gives for a lot of
> the ships in the Honor Harrington stuff too.

I'm rather suspicious of a lot of things in those books. As for the 
mass, I think he used a square when he should have used a cube law.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:05:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:05:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
In-Reply-To: <OFF290291A.CB37BC25-ONCA256B9D.0017EFD0@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3CBD64AF.28128.7098A2@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 16:17, david.d.jaques-watson@centrel wrote:

> You are not mistaken. It's mentioned in Striker Book 2, part of the 
> "Integrating with Traveller" section.
> 
> My bet is that it goes back to "Starship Troopers".

I'm fairly sure it doesn't, because in ST the navy didn't seem to 
provide fire support, just softening bombardments with nukes.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:06:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:06:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
References: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>


david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> 
> Dear Folks -
> 
> In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see
> <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file
> their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
> 
> Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and
> although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the
> end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned
> for a financial year until after you've earned it.
> 
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's
> timetable works??

Earnings are based on calendar year (1 Jan - 31 Dec).  We receive an
official statement from our employers ("W-2" form) of our earnings,
taxable earnings (not always the same) and taxes withheld no later than
31 Jan of the next year.  We then have until 15 April to file our tax
paperwork (Form 1040, in one of several variations) and pay any tax due.

For further information, check:

http://www.irs.gov

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <3CBD66E0.27266.792890@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 13:49, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
> of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
> something that will be directly proportional to it.

It's simple - the apparent size of the world is what matters. You see 
the jump drives get frightened if they see large opjects in the shy, 
and they don't work well under stress.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:14:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:14:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
References: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au> <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CBCBDFA.1AA77C4E@premier.net>

John Groth wrote:

<<snip>>
> 
> Earnings are based on calendar year (1 Jan - 31 Dec).  We receive an
> official statement from our employers ("W-2" form) of our earnings,
> taxable earnings (not always the same) and taxes withheld no later than
> 31 Jan of the next year.

Just to clarify:

Earnings are based on calendar year (01 Jan X0 - 31 Dec X0), and the W-2
form should be received no later than 31 Jan X1.

Why US income taxes are based on calendar years, while the Federal
government's fiscal years run from 01 Oct X0 - 30 Sep X1 (said year
being referred to as Fiscal Year X1) is beyond me.

Note also that different states may have income tax filing dates that
differ from that of the Federal government....

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:21:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:21:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi,

> There are "clusters". And it's *really* unlikely that any sizable body
> will have a density much above Mercury's. At least in a "normal"
> system. The planets that form around supernova remnants are likely to
> be very different.

Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

Besides, what's "normal" ? Our solar system could be the odd one out, for
all we know. Until we survey a few others, I'd say it was not a good idea to
make assumptions concerning the frequency of systems like ours. Consider the
size of our moon to the Earth, for example. If it hadn't have been for a
body the size of Mars hitting the just-born Earth, the Earth would have been
larger and the moon non-existent, with dramatic effects on evolution and
culture thereafter. The chances of that collision happening may have been
vanishingly small, making the Earth Moon system unique.

Finally, all non-jovian planets form from Supernova remnants. That's what
(a) manufactures the heavier elements in the first place, and (b) creates a
large cloud of particulate and gas that condenses to form a new star. The
presence of anything above the lighter elements in the solar system implies
that the Sun and its family owe their existence to the previous catastrophic
death of a long dead star.

If you are referring to oddities like pulsar planets here, then I'd agree
they would probably be denser if they formed from debris. But then, its more
likely that a pulsar has captured a body ejected from another system, as
supernovas tend to clear the area near the site of the explosion and drive
all the suitable accretion material well away from the pulsar itself. That
Hubble image of the 1987A (?, can't remember the designation now) supernova
remnant shows this in practice - a huge shockwave travelling at relativistic
velocities away from the pulsar corem driving superheated gas and
particulate with it.

> Ain't gonna happen. The abundance of materials in the cloud of dust and
> gas a system forms from means that anything with a substantial iron
> core will have a lot more rocky material overlying it.

Just because it's less likely doesn't mean it won't happen. A few years ago,
superjovians in the inner system were thought impossible, and then guess
what they found ?

Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
come up eventually.

> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.

Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

> I'm not going to quit indicating emphasis. And the alternatives are
> asterisks or underlines and the asterisks are much easier to hit.

Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
all.

> Yes, it's harder to read a sentence where you individually emphasize
> each word with them. But that's not what I'm doing.

No, but it made the point - the *'s draw your eyes to particular key words
and make the sentence harder to read.

> As for patronizing, I'm not responsible for what you read into what I
> write.

Hah ! Have you ever thought of a career in politics ? :-)

Seriously, if you decide to emphasize particular words, then you are
attempting to enforce those words and colour the interpretation of the
sentence, which is what emphasis is all about anyway. Take the sentence
above, "it's *really* unlikely" - there was no need to emphasize the word
"really" here at all. The wording was more than sufficient. All you achieved
was to add a dismissive/patronising tone, as if to say "it's so unlikely
that it's not even worth considering, so I am not going to".

> Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
> of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
> something that will be directly proportional to it.

Why does it have to vary with the inverse cube of the distance ? That
automatically makes the assumption that I argued against, which is "just
because the figures fit it must be right". I'd agree that the tidal figures
being identical for a given density across all world sizes seems convincing,
until you remember that densities are not going to be uniform at all. Then
the "figures matching" evidence breaks down (IIRC, Larger rocky/terrestrial
worlds are likely to have a higher density, as their proto-cores must have
been more massive during accretion to gain the additonal mass in the first
place - therefore as you go from UWP Size 1 to A, the density is likely to
increase, and the tidal force likewise).

Might it not make more sense to say that 100 diameters was a simplification
for the game, and an arbitrary value, rather than cook the Physics books to
justify it ? If you are going to make a "realistic-feel" limit for Jump
Drives, it would make more sense to define it in terms of the gravitational
field strength and forget the diameters thing entirely, except maybe as a
passing comment such as "for Earth this occurs at 100 planetary diameters".

Regards

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <B8E20E0C.3AB65%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/16/02 4:56 PM, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au at
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

> Dear Folks -
> 
> In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see
> <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file
> their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
> 
> Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and
> although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the
> end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned
> for a financial year until after you've earned it.
> 
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's
> timetable works??

Tax year runs January 1 through December 31, with filing not later than
April 15 the following year unless and extension is granted.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416183650.00b8f070@urbin.net>
References: <3CBC7D4F.7020102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CBD6995.16638.83BD87@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 18:37, Mark Urbin wrote:

> >How long did your party survive before the local residents rounded you up 
> >and hung you?
> 
> That's why he should have checked for witnesses first.

Yep. Witnesses are easier to deal with if you can shoot them before 
they know what's going on.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Damn mind rapers
Message-ID: <20020417003134.71770.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

My apoligise to the TML for that PBEM post, in future
must check address before posting. Agian my apoligies.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEDLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> >
> > Dear Folks -
> >
> > In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see
> > <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens
> have to file
> > their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
> >
> > Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and
> > although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the
> > end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned
> > for a financial year until after you've earned it.
> >
> > Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's
> > timetable works??
>
> Earnings are based on calendar year (1 Jan - 31 Dec).  We receive an
> official statement from our employers ("W-2" form) of our earnings,
> taxable earnings (not always the same) and taxes withheld no later than
> 31 Jan of the next year.  We then have until 15 April to file our tax
> paperwork (Form 1040, in one of several variations) and pay any tax due.
>
> For further information, check:
>
> http://www.irs.gov

Well, that sounds all nice and simple.

Over here in blighty, our tax year runs 5th April - 5th April, and the tax
calculations are arcane mysteries. A plethora of forms (P14, P35, P60, et
al) exist for the end of year.

And then, your accountant miscalculates and you end up 465.40 adrift
because he went to a calculator feeding frenzy and slipped on the keys. Such
is life.

ObTrav: What about tax returns in the Imperium ? In particular, what about
tax returns for expatriot traders and the like - do they pay tax where their
ship is registered, or pro rata per world they stay on, or what ?

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
Message-ID: <F195IuSRhAssGzeKkWG0000635c@hotmail.com>

>>And I'm rather suspicious of the masses David Weber gives for a lot of
>>the ships in the Honor Harrington stuff too.
>
>I'm rather suspicious of a lot of things in those books. As for the
>mass, I think he used a square when he should have used a cube law.
>
If the ships have any significant armour then he should have used both 
(square for armour and cube for more or less everything else) assuming he 
didn't set a fixed ratio between volume and armour mass. There should also 
be a constant term and some terms with fractional powers but they might be 
small enough to ignore. It's probably easier and more accurate to build the 
ships FFS/Vehicles style.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <20020416221005.288A827A31@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00c001c1e5aa$dad24960$50b18b90@computer>

> From: Derek Wildstar
> while a lot has been written about the various Traveller militaries, I
> don't think anyone has ever written a supplement about lawyers and
> lawsuits in the Imperium.  ;-)

Hmm....  No, I think you are right - we don't know much about lawyers in the
OTU.

We do, however, know that all accountants have cutlass skill, that all
philosophers wear black berets, and that it is not wise to assume that
everyone who wears a black beret is necessarily a philosopher.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <20020416154004.A42C527A0E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00bd01c1e5aa$d8c25520$50b18b90@computer>

From: James Ramsay
> Oh and a funny thing here in Australia, three of our sailors where
> arrested for damaging earth moving equipment! And these people are
> protecting our waters?

Well of course they damaged it!  They thought earth was just like water.

Or do you mean they were in _possession_ of damaging earth moving equipment?
I would have thought that was the point of the navy - damaging things and
moving earth around.

Maybe they were trying to use the earth moving equipment to protect our
waters by burying them?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com










From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <00bf01c1e5aa$da2a70a0$50b18b90@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon"
> So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the occupants of the
> other car without warning.  Then we went through their pockets for loose
> change.

Wow.  What an incredibly bad idea...  I don't think I've met a single ref
who would have let you get away with that. About the only way you could have
would be if the ref didn't want to have to waste time while you rolled up
new characters.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:56:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:56:30 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <00bc01c1e5aa$d823a420$50b18b90@computer>

From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> That's the sort of magical transformation that all those alchemists dreamt
> about! (Actually, they would have been happy with just a lump of gold, but
> you get my drift... ;-).

Strictly speaking, the goals of alchemy were religious/spiritual.  The
"turning lead to gold" thing was a metaphor.

Of course, there might have been some alchemists that didn't understand
that.  There certainly were a bunch of non-alchemists that didn't, and
handed over plenty of gold to alchemists for the latter to turn to lead for
them.

I've always found it interesting that people like Newton and Boyle were
alchemists.  After all, alchemists were basically wizards.  This raises some
wonderful possibilities.  The British government basically legalised a coven
of witches.  What deals were made to accomplish this?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:57:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:57:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170054.EFJ05650@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

A Los Alamos report

LA-3126-MS           
Pion-nucleon elastic scattering experiments with
high intensity meson beams

How do I get a copy?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:57:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:57:48 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416190104.2243227A2D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00be01c1e5aa$d9841e80$50b18b90@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon" 
> Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from 
> the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
> again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up 
> during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and 
> said, "Behold, Our God!".

Yeah, well, you can rack up another keyboard kill for this...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:59:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:59:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <20020416221005.288A827A31@mail.travellercentral.com> <00c001c1e5aa$dad24960$50b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3CBCC836.201FC590@premier.net>


Alan Bradley wrote:
> 
> > From: Derek Wildstar
> > while a lot has been written about the various Traveller militaries, I
> > don't think anyone has ever written a supplement about lawyers and
> > lawsuits in the Imperium.  ;-)
> 
> Hmm....  No, I think you are right - we don't know much about lawyers in the
> OTU.
> 
> We do, however, know that all accountants have cutlass skill, that all
> philosophers wear black berets, and that it is not wise to assume that
> everyone who wears a black beret is necessarily a philosopher.

I've also mentioned that AuricTech Shipyards (quasi-canon, as the firm
is described in _101 Corporations_) has a contingent of "suits": lawyers
in battledress. ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204170054.EFJ05650@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019005361.2749.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> A Los Alamos report
> 
> LA-3126-MS           
> Pion-nucleon elastic scattering experiments with
> high intensity meson beams
> 
> How do I get a copy?

Somehow, I suspect it would be either incomprehensible or horribly boring even
if you requested it.  In any case, these aren't traveller mesons, since they
seem to actually interact with matter, as opposed to mystically passing through
it without interaction ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LAMPF - a meson facility!
Message-ID: <200204170105.EFJ07268@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Evidently home to the world's most powerful proton 
accelerator (800 MeV).  There's an article about how they 
have to treat items that were in the "hot cell" which 
were "target processed".  These items are apparently 
radioactive after the beam hits them (whether the beam is a 
proton beam or neutron beam).

They can also produce a beam of high energy neutrons by 
striking a tantalum screen with the proton beam.

ObTrav:  After your ship is hit by a meson weapon, assuming 
you're still alive, is the ship a radioactive wreck?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020417011017.28326.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Or do you mean they were in _possession_ of damaging
earth moving equipment? I would have thought that was
the point of the navy - damaging things and moving
earth around.
END QUOTE

Now they damaged some earth moving equipment. However
it was civilian earth moving equipment! Ive said it
before and I will say it agin I am sooooo glad
Australia doesn't have nukes!

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #413 - 48 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020417010107.F3AC9279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020417010107.F3AC9279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <mripbu88p8l3cb85uuh4h4600e5ob0gkac@4ax.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 17:59:21 -0700, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
wrote:

>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:56:56 +1000
>Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>Dear Folks -

>In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see 
><http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file 
>their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).

>Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and 
>although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the 
>end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned 
>for a financial year until after you've earned it.

>Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
>timetable works??

Unless your company specifically indicates otherwise, fiscal years for IRS
purposes are 01/01 to 31/12.  Filing deadline is 15/4 for the prior tax
year.  You can apply for an extension until 15/8, but if you have a tax
liability (i.e., you need to pay rather than receiving a refund) you must
pay by 15/4.


--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net> <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020417114559.A29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Just curious, but what about storing H2 as hydrides?  Don't you get
> a higher density?

Not really.  Hydrides are a form of hydrogen storage with the
advantages of requiring little energy to extract and of being
relatively safe, cheap and reusable.  The best quoted hydride storage
I found on the Web had a hydrogen storage capacity of 95 kg/m^3 at
pressures near 1 atm (assuming bulk solid, which it wouldn't be).
That's better than liquid hydrogen, but lower than water.

Once you have hydrogen-driven fusion power, the energy cost to extract
hydrogen from water becomes pretty much irrelevant.  The expense of
even the cheapest metal hydride storage grossly exceeds that of water
tanks, as well as being a lot heavier.


- Tim




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018998784.5627.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1018998784.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020417114826.B29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
[ Jump fuel requirements ]
> Which is, based on the existence of drop tanks, equal to the total
> fuel requirement of jump.

Please, let's not start the drop-tank "Canon says this!  No, that's
contradicted by *that*" flamewar again.  I did very carefully specify
the requirements applied to My Traveller universe for a reason.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:49:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:49:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170147.EFL02200@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>In any case, these aren't traveller mesons, since=
 they
>seem to actually interact with matter, as opposed to =

>mystically passing through it without interaction ;)

There seems to =
be a major misconception about meson beams in =

Traveller. I still remember reading the original JTAS article.

A semi=
stable meson produced either in a neutral =

form with a mass 264 times that of an electron =

and a mean lifetime of 8.4 =D7 10^17 seconds =

or in a positively or negatively charged form =

with a mass 273 times that of an electron and a =

mean lifetime of 2.6 =D7 10^8 seconds. =

Also called pi meson.

The neutral pion decays in about 10^15 sec, =

usually into a pair of photons but occasionally =

into a positron-electron pair and a photon. Gamma ray photons.

The Tr=
aveller meson was described in an old JTAS
article.  It is a pi neutral=
 meson.  It has no
magical non-interaction properties - it is merely
v=
ery highly penetrating, as cosmic rays (which are
relativistic pi meson=
s) are.  The reason that cosmic =

rays don't make it to the ground is that they decay
before they get low=
er (the atmosphere does slow them
down).  A ship targeted by a relativi=
stic beam tuned
to precipitate the decay of all of its pions a short
d=
istance into the target is a meson gun.

There were experimental radia=
tion treatment machines
designed on this principle, to put radiation in=
to =

specific areas of a patient.

The LAMPF facility at Los Alamos is the =
most powerful
meson accelerator in the world, at 800 Mev.  It was
orig=
inally built in 1968, and has been upgraded over
time.

The Los Alamo=
s National Laboratory proposes =

to construct a scientifically broadly based =

facility using the existing Los Alamos Meson =

Physics Facility (LAMPF) accelerator as =

its injector. Both the Canadian and Los Alamos =

proposals have the capability of providing a =

hundredfold increase in the intensity of =

certain meson and hadron beams over those =

available today. That's 80 GeV.
________________
"Imposed armistices .=
 . . artificially =

freeze conflict and perpetuate a state =

of war indefinitely by shielding the =

weaker side from the consequences of =

refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.182943.8V3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Bruce Johnson asks
>>
>>How long did your party survive before the local residents 
>>rounded you  up and hung you?
>>
> That was the problem.  They had friends.  We got back to 
> town, and they heard about it.  Later that day, when we were 
> strolling into the front foyer of the guest house were were 
> staying at, three men stepped into the room and opened up on 
> us with submachineguns.  Of the six people in our party, one 
> survived.  The three attackers died, but the locals were 
> steamed enough to shoot the survivor after hearing his tale.

Congratulations on rediscovering the principle of the blood feud.

> It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
> principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
> friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
> received.

Also, never *ever* attack someone who has a family. Especially a tight
knit one.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:05:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:05:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <p0433010ab8e24dae9b06@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20416.190000.0p2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:45 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>>  At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>>>>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>>>>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>>>>todal forces are the same.
>>>
>>>  A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the
>>>  size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity
>>>  in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal
>>>  gradient.
>>
>>Actually, the tidal force varies *linearly* with the distance from the
>>center of mass of the body experiencing the tidal forces. Not *quite*
>>the same thing as varying with the size.
>
> The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also 
> true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to 
> another will depend on how far apart they are.

You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
forces). 

>>As a good example, consider some folks in spacesuits tethered to a
>>ship. The forces they experience depend on the distance and direction
>>from the ship, not on the size of the ship.
>
> True.  Though the difference in force between the guy in the space 
> suit different parts of the ship will depend on the size of the ship.

No. I'm talking about the tidal forces on the guy in the suit generated
by the fact that the ship he's attached to is in orbit about a planet.

The forces he experiences at 100 meters from the center of the ship are
ten times those he'd experience at 10 meters (in the same direction).
 
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:06:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:06:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417085805.D28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.190553.2F8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Stephen Tempest wrote:
>> Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?
>
> Of course :)
>
> It varies with which rules, time period, and dataset you use, but my
> figures are on the order of 100 PCr/year.  Never seen a 'P' prefix
> used before?  10^15, in case anyone was wondering ;)

Y	yotta	10^24
Z	zetta	10^21
E	exa	10^18
P	peta	10^15
T	tera	10^12
G	giga	10^9
M	mega	10^6
k	kilo	10^3
h	hecto	10^2
da	deka	10^1

The prefixes go all the way down to 10^-24 too, but those aren't likely
to come up in our discussions.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:07:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:07:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020417120609.C29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Brick wrote:
> If you are going to make a "realistic-feel" limit for Jump Drives,
> it would make more sense to define it in terms of the gravitational
> field strength and forget the diameters thing entirely, except maybe
> as a passing comment such as "for Earth this occurs at 100 planetary
> diameters".


That's exactly what I'm doing.  The tidal gradient *is* the
gravitational field.  Acceleration is coordinate-dependent, and not
intrinsic to gravity.

It so happens that it works out very similar in behaviour to a
diameter based rule, which is an added bonus.  On the other hand, the
fact that the two rules give very similar results may be considered a
problem -- certainly it seems to have caused a lot of confusion here!


- Tim



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
In-Reply-To: <3CBC9A4C.4000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416222702.02624008@192.168.0.1>

At 02:40 PM 4/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>William Lane wrote:
>
>>Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
>>everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
>>info.
>
>That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write XML 
>to Cobol and back...


Way cool!  Can I add this to my Traveller Maintenance Blues page?
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html>

This will great with your other great bit on the subject:
Captain to new crewmember:

"Well, the damn nic in the aft engineering workstation died a month ago, 
and since it's a 150 year old model, it's been hard to find parts...so we 
just do everything by hand...I know, I know, it's a pain, and someday we're 
gonna have to jump on less than 12 hours notice...I'll get _around_ to it, 
ok? Now go pound on the forward stab'rd ventilation controller, the damn 
relay's stuck closed again, and if that keeps upit's gonna be like an 
icebox in the passenger cabins again."


>oBTRav> Captain finds engineer hip deep in the Jump drive controller with 
>an exceptionally old-looking piece of hardware in his hands.
>
>Captain: "Good lord, Scottie! That's a jump *tape* reader! What is that 
>antique doing on my jump drive??"
>
>Engineer: "Well Captain, we cannae find the right components to rrepair 
>the drive controller. Urgvark" he points to a crazed looking Vargr 
>assistant engineer, "...found this in a antique shop. We're tying it into 
>the saircuit right now."
>
>C: "But how will we control it? I haven't seen a jump tape in my life that 
>wasn't in a museum!"
>
>E:"Well Captain, I have a writing head from a holocorder here, we can 
>connect it to the main computer, and have it translate the control 
>instructions from the astrogation program to the correct patterns that a 
>jump tape would have. It should work, in theory, sah. " Shouts "OK 
>Urgvark! Give me some power..."
>
><SNAP> <Pop fsssssshhhhhh> "Turn it off! Turn it off!"
>
>E: Through the smoke..."Ahh captain, we're going ta need some morrre time..."
>
>C: weeps.
>
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170239.TAA01546@ping.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Anthony Jackson says
>>In any case, these aren't traveller mesons, since they
>>seem to actually interact with matter, as opposed to 
>>mystically passing through it without interaction ;)
>
>There seems to be a major misconception about meson beams in 
>Traveller. I still remember reading the original JTAS article.

Nah.  Meson beams have a number of clearly non-physical properties, starting
with the magical 'timed delay'.

>A semistable meson produced either in a neutral 
>form with a mass 264 times that of an electron 
>and a mean lifetime of 8.4  10^17 seconds 
>or in a positively or negatively charged form 
>with a mass 273 times that of an electron and a 
>mean lifetime of 2.6  10^8 seconds. 
>Also called pi meson.

Well, assuming 'lifespan' is half-life, neutral pion is a bit off 
(6.63x10^-17s), charged pion is insanely off (3.76x10^-8), and both
interact via the strong force, giving them penetration not significantly
different from protons at the same energy levels.  Among common partiles,
the best penetrator would be the muon (sometimes called the mu meson,
though it's not a meson), as it's fairly massive (avoiding the effects
that bleed energy off electrons) and doesn't interact via the strong
force.  It also has as longer lifespan than any type of pion (3.17x10^-6).
A teravolt accelerator might have usable range in space combat.

>The Traveller meson was described in an old JTAS
>article.  It is a pi neutral meson.  It has no
>magical non-interaction properties - it is merely
>very highly penetrating, as cosmic rays (which are
>relativistic pi mesons) are.  The reason that cosmic 
>rays don't make it to the ground is that they decay
>before they get lower (the atmosphere does slow them
>down).  A ship targeted by a relativistic beam tuned
>to precipitate the decay of all of its pions a short
>distance into the target is a meson gun.

The decay process described above is clearly magical, since fundamental 
particles don't decay at a fixed time, they simply have a normal logarithmic
decay and will thus have the largest number of decays right in front of the
barrel.  It also requires utterly insane energy levels for neutral pions to
have any range (by the abbreviations given elsewhere, somewhere around 100
YEv).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20416.182943.8V3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204161937200.17414-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Congratulations on rediscovering the principle of the blood feud.
> 
> > It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
> > principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
> > friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
> > received.
> 
> Also, never *ever* attack someone who has a family. Especially a tight
> knit one.
> 
Don't attack people with seriously dysfunctional families, either.

In any given moment, at least 50% of my relatives aren't speaking to at
least one other relative.  That doesn't mean they wouldn't ALL get
together and kick your ass if you attacked one of us-- the principle as
far as I can tell is that we're the only people who are allowed to hurt
us.  I was very, very surprised when my brother, who is on crack half the
time and with whom I can rarely have a civil conversation due to his
racism, sexism and homophobia, decided he was going after my ex-husband,
and I was the only person on earth who was able to stop him.  And did,
because Vince isn't worth that kind of trouble and Tripp doesn't need
another strike toward the three.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170250.EFN02270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson
>
>Nah.  Meson beams have a number of clearly non-physical 
>properties, starting with the magical 'timed delay'.
>

There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes 
are for mesons that are *not* in motion.

Mesons that are moving at relativistic velocities last a 
*lot* longer.  Otherwise, cosmic rays would never pass down 
into our upper atmosphere.

The decay times listed are also from a Los Alamos website.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <3CBD64AF.31847.709971@localhost>
References: <3CBD64AF.31847.709971@localhost>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8e293c05231@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:03 PM +1200 4/17/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 16 Apr 2002 at 20:32, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>
>>  Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
>>  (of radiation effects on fertility)
>>  > Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in
>>  > men, if you prefer)?
>>
>>  Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
>>  the testis to ionising radiation.
>
>How penetrating is ionising radiation in general? If it's not very
>penetrating there should be some adjustment made to allow for the
>ovaries being protected by being inside, rather than outside the torso.

Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can 
easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the 
skin (or more than a meter or two of air).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.190000.0p2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.190000.0p2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8e294f89b54@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:00 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>  > The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also
>>  true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to
>>  another will depend on how far apart they are.
>
>You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
>depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
>ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
>forces).

I'm not sure what force you are talking about.  The force on any one 
part of the ship is the force of gravity.  Tidal forces are the 
relative difference in forces between different parts of an object.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Qiuck Query on US Tax Returns
Message-ID: <3CBCE57F.316C0F85@mail.cswnet.com>

Further clarifications to what John Groth wrote:

>Earnings are based on calendar year (01 Jan X0 - 31 Dec X0), and the >W-2 form should be received no later than 31 Jan X1.

There is a grace period for employers sending out W-2 forms. While the
forms themselves must go out 1/31, taxpayers who have not recieved them
cannot contact the IRS until 2/15.

April 15 is the tax deadline. Extensions to file the taxes are allowed,
but extensions for paying the taxes are not. Thus if you owe and take an
extension you still wind up paying penalties and interest.

>Note also that different states may have income tax filing dates that
>differ from that of the Federal government....

Examples: Arkansas and Louisiana, both file taxes 1 month after the
Federal return, on 5/15.

California requires its taxes on 4/15, but grants an automatic extension
for filing till 10/15. Again, this is for filing only, not for taxes
owed.

Also, some states [Wyoming, Florida, Nevada, Texas, Alaska, Washington,
South Dakota] do not have personal income tax. Two others, New Hampshire
and Tennessee don't really deal with personal tax unless your a richie
with lots of dividends and interest earnings. I imagine that in these
states they get the income via sales and property taxes. Texas, as an
example, has its infamous "Hospitality Tax", which is a sales tax on
hotels and motels.

Then there is that unique fun known to tax preparers as "the all-states
return." This is where the taxpayer has moved from one state to another,
and the tax preparer gets to pull his/her hair out trying to figure all
the tax consequences for the individual. And some states don't make it
easy. Check out Wisconsins Form 827, Legal Residence (Domicile)
Questionnaire. By the time you get done with it, you'll think you've
arrived in the Solomani Confederation.

This is a good place to start:
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

You can get to the IRS site here. It also gives you an overlook at US
states in the "State Tax Profiles" section.

Andy B writes:
>ObTrav: What about tax returns in the Imperium ? In particular, what >about tax returns for expatriot traders and the like - do they pay tax >where their ship is registered, or pro rata per world they stay on, or >what ?

When I first got on the TML, back on the old list, we had a big
discussion about taxes. Actually, I think it was the first question I
posted. IIRC, the general opinion was that the Imperuim itself doesn't
do personal income taxes. It gets its money from planetary transfers
[the 30% thing you see in Striker] and sales taxes [seen chiefly at
Starports, or in systems where the Imperuim controls liscencing for belt
mining]. Personal income taxes are a province of what ever planet you
are from. Be advised that whatever you pc is doing, he will, eventually
and inevitably, have to deal with taxes in one form or another. Take my
little piece of landgrab heaven, Arba/Lunion 1721. Zero government, Zero
lawlevel. The perfect tax shelter, right? Just don't go to the Starport,
cause the SPA needs ALOT of money to run it and you WILL pay thru the
nose going through there. So you go out to the asteroid belt to mine ice
so you don't have to go to the port, right? So sorry, but the Imperuim
requires you to have a prospectors liscence [to help defray the cost of
maintaining a small patrol running through the system]. And so on and so
forth. 

God, I just spent all day yesterday working on other peoples taxes. I
found the whole experience ....

[WAIT FOR IT]




I found the whole experience TAXING.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"Let me tell you how it will be. There's one for you, nineteen for me.
Cause I'm the Tax Man, oh yeah I'm the Tax Man."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:07:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:07:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20416.191041.8G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
>
>>>Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =3D20
>>
>>Shouldnt the hull code be Z? I though Y was for 1,000,000 to=20
>>1,999,999. Z was for anything above that.=20
>
> Y is for 1,000,000 to "the next stated level" - but there isn't one,
> so I'm assuming it's just "over a million tons".  Z is "Reserved".
>
>>>MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
>>Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
>>Architects fees? Anyone?
>
> Standard cost.  If you *really* want to start mass-producing these
> things, you scare me ;-)
>
> I didn't include the architect's fees, but they'd be TCr 376,770.  The
> kind of contract every naval architect dreams of.

Check out Fritz Leiber's novel "The Wanderer" for planet ships.
Including things like PAW mounts with tunnels thousands of miles long. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:08:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:08:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417082001.B28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.192354.1u3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
>> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
> Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
> a nitpick.

I was going by the figures in the post I was responding to, which had a
higher density listed for Mercury.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204170250.EFN02270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204170250.EFN02270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes are for
> mesons that are *not* in motion.

They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half of the
original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has elapsed, 1/4 decay in
the next half-life period, 1/8 in the half-life after that, etc.

In a universe in which electronic precognition is common, you might be
able to look into the future and tell which are going to decay when.
Then you can preferentially accelerate the short-lived ones.  Oh,
you'll need accelerators capable of delivering a few megajoules *per
particle* as well, controllable to within 1 part per trillion, and
reliable precognition to the same accuracy.

Short of that, you'll get a beam of decaying mesons all along your
firing path, with the greatest concentration of decays *inside* your
weapon.


Getting a real meson to decay "on schedule" at a distance of hundreds
of thousands of kilometres is indeed magic of a very high order
according to current physics.  I'm not doubting that they exist in the
Traveller universe, just that their behaviour is radically different
from the way *real* mesons behave.

I'm a fan of the "Dr Meson" theory.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170327.UAA04325@ping.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Anthony Jackson
>>
>>Nah.  Meson beams have a number of clearly non-physical 
>>properties, starting with the magical 'timed delay'.
>>
>
>There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes 
>are for mesons that are *not* in motion.

You missed the point.  The point is that particles don't have 'lifespans'
(that can be extended with relativistic effects).  The have half-lives
(that can also be extended with relativistic effects) but the effect of
a half-life is that decays happen along the entire length of the beam,
with the largest number occuring right in front of the barrel.
>
>Mesons that are moving at relativistic velocities last a 
>*lot* longer.  Otherwise, cosmic rays would never pass down 
>into our upper atmosphere.

Well, cosmic rays are mostly regular nuclei initially; by and large everything
but the muons does decay before reaching the ground.

> The decay times listed are also from a Los Alamos website.

Hm..odd, I got mine off an LBL website.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018991242.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com> <ML-2.3.1018991242.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <i1qpbu0h52l19nh3hil3ubpm159pg14q71@4ax.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:07:22 -0700 (PDT), Anthony Jackson
<ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>I seem to recall something about X-ray lasers being developed, but =
they're not
>exactly weapons-grade.  The old SDI people talked about bomb-pumped =
X-ray
>lasers, a mechanism which AFAIK has never been successfully =
demonstrated, not
>that this prevent people from using it in SF.

I believe that bomb-pumped X-ray lasers were among the last things
examined with the underground nuclear tests.  If I recall, at they
showed some disappointing results in regard to focusing.

Since that time, there have no doubt been refinements to the design to
address the problem, but of course they haven't been tested.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:07:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:07:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com> <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 13:58:32 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
><SNIP>
>>
>> It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In another
>> of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional and
>> compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive me if
>> I am interpreting you incorrectly).  I believe you are in error in
>> this regard.  As per the above, the compressional forces are due to
>> the object's self-gravity and only the tensional forces are due to the
>> influence of another body and therefore are tidal forces.
>
>No. Tidal forces are *away* from the center of the satellite along the
>line joining it to the primary (ie the side closest to the primary is
>pulled towards the primary, and the side opposite the primary is pulled
>*away* from the primary.=20
>
>But the forces in the plane perpendicular to that line are *towards*
>the center of the satellite.=20
>
>so if you were orbiting close to a neutron star in a space suit, your
>feet would be pulled towards the star, your head would be pulled away
>from it and your waist would be getting squeezed.=20

Thank you for the clarification.  I'll admit that I'd forgotten the
"pinching" effect taking place in the plane perpendicular to the axis
passing through the primary and the satellite (though I had a clear
image of a fluid satellite doing exactly this in my mind [THUD]}.

However, I want to point you back to the original point of discussion
and the problem I was having with Tim Little's assertion that Jump
Drives are inherently at 0 diameters of the jumping ship itself.  This
may be true if one views the various limits as being imposed by
gravity, but, in a past discussion, it was elegantly pointed out that
tidal force more closely conforms to the 100 or 10 diameter limit for
the various planetary types than does gravity.

My point was that I believe that a body does not exert tidal force
upon itself.  Rather, those forces only appear in relation to two
separate bodies.  Therefore, a ship, otherwise outside the 100
diameter limit of other system bodies (and the tidal forces upon it
from those bodies is therefore negligible), does not exert a tide upon
itself or, to give Tim his due, that those forces are compressional
and are subsumed in the body's own gravitation.  Therefore, the Jump
drive is not working in a 0 diameter condition.

=46ailing this, I'll have to throw in with the earlier hand wave that
the jump grid defines a boundary within which the tidal force (or
gravitation) can be ignored.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:45:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:45:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416222132.009fa690@mail.attbi.com>

	I appreciate the comments of everyone who has replied to my initial 
post.  I gather that sandcasters would work best
against optical wavelengths and might require a lot of sand, but are not 
entirely infeasible.  Particle beams and X-ray lasers appear to be another 
kettle of fish entirely.  Years ago, before the internet, before I knew 
anyone besides myself might be interested in space combat, I checked out a 
copy of The Effects of Nuclear Weapons.  In it I found some interesting 
tables on the 1/2 value thickness of various material versus various forms 
of radiaton.  The 1/2 value thickness for X-rays was approximately 20 grams 
per square cm for heavy metals.  But that was for a solid plate of 
iron.  If the beam had to pass through a long distance (a few hundred 
meters) would that make any difference?  I am wondering if a long 
scattering distance would reduce the required density.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS TML Skills
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C179DB@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>


Sebastian:
If you have a Skill at Level 0 (e.g. Grav Vehicle-0), and this Skill 'serves
as' another Skill at Level minus 1 (Grav Vehicle serves as Grav Belt -1), at
which Level do I execute the 'served' Skill (Grav Belt)?
at : Level -1 (-> giving a negative DM of 1)?
at : Level 0 (-> minimum Skill-Level is allways 0)?
or not at all (-> there are no 'served' Skills for Level-0-Skills)?


I would go with the first one (giving a negative DM of -1). The other thing
is of course when you have both skills. For example Pilot serves as Ship's
Boat-1. So if you have Ship's Boat-2 and Pilot-3, does your Ship's Boat
become 4 (Pilot-3 minus 1 plus Ship's Boat-2), or is your DM still just 2
and you've wasted two skill levels. 

I love Megatraveller, but like all RPGers I changed it to taste. So for my
system, which has a combo of MT & T4 skills, plus some of my own, any skill
that is related gives a Synergy bonus. For example, I consider Computers and
Robotics linked skills. If you have a Skill level of 2-3 you can add a DM of
1 to a linked skill, and if Skill level 4+ add 2. If you have more than one
linked skill then you only add the highest bonus. 

I have found it works very well. I am more than happy to email to you if
you're interested, along with the reworked task & generation rules. 

Mikey

PS I rolled Ships Boat into Pilot. I thought it was stoopid to have them
separate. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>
References: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com> <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020417150233.E29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> in a past discussion, it was elegantly pointed out that tidal force
> more closely conforms to the 100 or 10 diameter limit for the
> various planetary types than does gravity.

At the risk of repeating myself: tidal gradient *is* the gravitational
field.  The gravitational field *is* the tidal gradient.  This is
particularly true in General Relativity, where gravitational
"acceleration" has no real existence, and the tidal gradient
corresponds precisely to the spacetime curvature.  This curvature (the
gravitational field) exists inside solid objects as well as outside.


> Failing this, I'll have to throw in with the earlier hand wave that
> the jump grid defines a boundary within which the tidal force (or
> gravitation) can be ignored.

That's what I use.  Works for me.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:16:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:16:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204162126.g3GLQsn00991@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20416.215652.8Q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
>> network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
>> just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.
>> 
>> In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
>> a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
>> wormholes have to share a reference frame.
>
> I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim

The existence of a preferred frame, means that laws of physics work
differently in *that* frame than in other frames. Which violates the
hell out of relativity and has other consequences as well. 

But if your drive only works in *that* reference frame or is otherwise
"tied" to it, you don't have to woory about time travel and other problems.

You *do* have to worry about explaining how it is that it just so
happens that this section of the milky way is moving at the right speed
in the right direction for FTL to be "easy" when it's very hard for the
rest of the universe.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:16:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:16:59 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <p04330109b8e24d6388f8@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20416.215513.5m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:28 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in
>>  > near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near
>>>  misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a
>>>  single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?
>>
>>We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
>>outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.
>
> We are looking.  There is a program underway to catalog Earth 
> crossing asteroids....

Yes, but they are looking for the *big* ones, not the measly little
hundred meter jobs. Detecting those would be nice, but if one hit it
wouldn't be much worse than a big nuke.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Added search to archives
Message-ID: <B8E2563E.3AD20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

I just integrated the htdig search engine into the tml archives.  Give it a
spin.

Now we just need to convert old tml archives into mailbox format and we'll
have all the archives back to 1994 online and searchable.

I'm looking for volunteers.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
Message-ID: <200204170555.WAA10726@ping.iii.com>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:

>In mail you write:
>
>>> Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
>>> network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
>>> just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.
>>> 
>>> In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
>>> a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
>>> wormholes have to share a reference frame.
>>
>> I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim
>
>The existence of a preferred frame, means that laws of physics work
>differently in *that* frame than in other frames. Which violates the
>hell out of relativity and has other consequences as well. 

Well, it means that FTL works differently in that reference frame than
others; specifically, that reference frame is one in which all FTL transits
appear to take positive time.  It does mean that using FTL, the 
michealson-morley experiment will actually work and return an absolute
velocity relative to this reference frame.
>
>But if your drive only works in *that* reference frame or is otherwise
>"tied" to it, you don't have to woory about time travel and other problems.
>
>You *do* have to worry about explaining how it is that it just so
>happens that this section of the milky way is moving at the right speed
>in the right direction for FTL to be "easy" when it's very hard for the
>rest of the universe.

Note, however, that if you _create_ a wormhole network, the act of doing so
defines a preferred frame of reference.  As long as you don't/can't create
a second network (with a different reference frame), explaining this isn't
a problem (explaining the inability to create more than one network may
require some handwaving).

And the 'priveleged reference frame' doesn't have to be the same as the
speed of the milky way.  It means that some FTL trips will seem to take
negative time, but since the round trip time remains constant, no actual
causality violation can occur.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F101Yg83alUohIi6YEF00006b18@hotmail.com>

I'm cross posting this to the list and sending it directly to Bruce 
MacIntosh as well.

>Mr. Holmstrm,
>
>I'm a member of the TML and I recently ran across an old email you sent out 
>proposing rules for the building of chem-det lasers using Bruce Macintosh's 
>"MCS" starship combat rules.
>
>If you're still playing Traveller and it isn't an imposition on you, could 
>you tell me if you ever finished a final draft of your rules?

Ohh, I'm still playing Traveller/reading the TML. The short answer to your 
question is "sort of yes" but the long answer is more interesting. I tried 
to pick apart the NukeDet tables in FFS and the warhead table in MCS and 
reverse engineer the Frag and ChemDet warheads using MCS and FFS. The major 
problems are that the ChemDet and Frag warheads mentioned in MCS might be 
handwaved and lacks stats (mass/vol/price). More details on NukeDets in 
FFS1/2 would also help. The discussion below assumes that the reader knows 
FFS and MCS. If I'm unclear somewhere just yell.

Most of my argument uses this table from MCS:
>Type                    Pen:Damage     Defence Nuclear Det-Laser            
>                                            TL15    19:13           -7
>                TL13    18:12           -7
>                TL10    17:11           -7
>Chemical Det-Laser-13   13:10           -6
>Fragmentation KKMSIM-10 10:14           -3

If the ChemDets are supposed to have a PEN calue of 13 this means that it 
must have a FFS2 DV of at least 21 (assuming PEN = 10*DAM => MCS DAM 7). 
This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking about a 
X-ray laser to it needs to be at least TL13. MCS states that NukeDets has a 
penetration value of 20 times the FFS2 damage value (instead of the usual 
PEN = 10xDAM). Further it states that the warhead (as a whole) has twice the 
damage compared to the listed damage (per beam) in FFS2. This can be used to 
determine the yield of the NukeDets used in the MCS missile table. Note that 
all the warheads mass around 500 kg.

TL     Yield    Damage  Wt       Vol
10     100 kt    80     540 kg   270 l
13     200 kt    94     500 kg   250 l
15     500 kt   113     500 kg   250 l

From the PD modifiers in MCS I drew the conclusion that ChemDets detonate 
closer to their target than DetNukes and that Frags detonates even closer. 
At shorter distances the missile will be easier to hit but this works both 
ways. Every -1 on defence makes the missile twice as hard to hit (based on 
PD RoF modifiers).

Warhead      Eff.
NukeDet       1
ChemDet       2
Frag         16

To bring the damage of the ChemDet warhead up to DAM 10 we need to hit the 
target 3 times (compared with 2 for NukeDets)using 40Mj laser pulses. Since 
the ChemDet detonates at a more efficient distance we only have to use 67% 
as many lasing rods as on a NukeDet.

Here is where we run out of information. How many lasing rods are there in a 
NukeDet? Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow 
up) or something more powerful (that does)? Can a lasing rod (as used in 
NukeDets) also be used with chemicals? What is the cost/weight/volume of the 
lasing rod and tracking telescope?


There are two ways to handle this.

1. Assume that all warheads in the MCS missile list are 500 kg/250 l. The 
cost of the ChemDet warhead is anybody's guess but say 100 kCr. The ChemDet 
with PEN13 and DAM10 will represent the baseline warhead and can be modified 
as follows.

Modify weight and volume based on Tech Level.

TL  Wt and Vol mod
13   1.00
16   0.67

By changing the power and number of the lasing rods different warheads can 
be constructed. Change the PEN and DAM values and then apply the weight, 
volume and price modifiers. Each extra point can be added to either DAM or 
PEN but not to both.  Points can also be transferred (e.g. PEN+1/DAM-1) at 
no cost.

Bonus*   Wt, Vol and Price mod
+1          1.5  (1.46)
+2          2.0  (2.15)
+3          3.0  (3.16)
+4          4.5  (4.65)
+5          7.0  (6.81)
+6         10.0  (10.0)
For negative modifiers divide instead.

Examples

A TL11 ChemDet warhead (-2).
Pen = 13 - 1 = 12.
Dam = 10 - 1 = 9.
Wt = 500 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 500 kg.
Vol = 250 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 250 l.
Price = 100 / 2.0 = 50 kCr.

A TL13 Heavy ChemDet Warhead (+3).
Pen = 13 + 2 = 15.
Dam = 10 + 1 = 11.
Wt = 500 * 3.0 = 1500 kg.
Vol = 500 * 3.0 = 750 l.
Price = 100 * 3.0 = 300 kCr.


A +3 ChemDet warhead and a ring of imperial intervention is all a traveller 
needs. ;) The modifiers are based on the 6*log10 damage scale of MCS and the 
Chemical Lasing Cartridge efficiency table. I believe this gives reasonable 
numbers but one might want to differentiate the TL table a bit.


2. Running the numbers of a 500 kg warhead using standard components.

A 40Mj 10 cm X-ray focal array with 10'000 km effective range at TL13.
Focal area  : 0.007854 m2.
Focal vol   : 0.000314 m3.
Focal mass  : 0.314 kg.
Focal price : 31.4 Cr.

Input energy  : 61.54 Mj.
Cartridge wt  : 30.77 kg.
Cartridge vol : 3.127 l.
I can't find the listed price for CLC cartridges in FFS2 so I use FFS1 
figures instead.
Cartridge price : 1850 Cr.

The weight limitation allows 16 cartridges to be fitted.
Warhead Wt    : 497.3 kg.
Warhead Vol   : 55.06 l.
Warhead Price : 30 kCr.

The result a very cheap and compact warhead but I doubt that 16 cartridges 
are enough since a NukeDet probably has more than 24 lasing rods. Building 
the thing with TL15 will allow for 21 cartridges and TL16 gets us 35 (mainly 
due to better cartridges). To be completely legal the warhead would need a 
beampointer which adds ~1000 kg at TL13. With a beampointer it is hard to 
see how any of the beams could miss at all.

Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a lot. 
TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge? Double this?


Ideas/Comments are welcomed.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20417.015401.9f1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> However, I want to point you back to the original point of discussion
> and the problem I was having with Tim Little's assertion that Jump
> Drives are inherently at 0 diameters of the jumping ship itself.  This
> may be true if one views the various limits as being imposed by
> gravity, but, in a past discussion, it was elegantly pointed out that
> tidal force more closely conforms to the 100 or 10 diameter limit for
> the various planetary types than does gravity.
>
> My point was that I believe that a body does not exert tidal force
> upon itself.  Rather, those forces only appear in relation to two
> separate bodies.  Therefore, a ship, otherwise outside the 100
> diameter limit of other system bodies (and the tidal forces upon it
> from those bodies is therefore negligible), does not exert a tide upon
> itself or, to give Tim his due, that those forces are compressional
> and are subsumed in the body's own gravitation.  Therefore, the Jump
> drive is not working in a 0 diameter condition.

Alas, any ship has to be treated as a collection of particles. And each
of those particles *does* exert forces on the others. And some could be
described as tidal forces. 

In any case the field will vary in weird and wonderful ways. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:42:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:42:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20417.015559.9o2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hi,
>
>> There are "clusters". And it's *really* unlikely that any sizable body
>> will have a density much above Mercury's. At least in a "normal"
>> system. The planets that form around supernova remnants are likely to
>> be very different.
>
> Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

Yes, but it's above by less than .2 g/cm^3. Im' talking about the
likelihood of planet's with densitys 1, 2 or more g/cm^3 above earth's.

Also, the post I was replying to had the wrong density for Mercury, and
had it being denser than earth. I didn't check my references until
someone pointed out the error.

> Besides, what's "normal" ? Our solar system could be the odd one out, for
> all we know. Until we survey a few others, I'd say it was not a good idea to
> make assumptions concerning the frequency of systems like ours. Consider the
> size of our moon to the Earth, for example. If it hadn't have been for a
> body the size of Mars hitting the just-born Earth, the Earth would have been
> larger and the moon non-existent, with dramatic effects on evolution and
> culture thereafter. The chances of that collision happening may have been
> vanishingly small, making the Earth Moon system unique.

The sort of normalcy I'm talking about is based soely on elemental
abundances and the way a cloud of dust and gas collapses to form
planets. Which none of the recent discoveries have modified in a way
that affects the density of inner planets that aren't gas giants. 

You wind up with only three types of material to build planets from.
Ices, "stony" materials and nickel-iron and the few elements that like
to accumulate along with it in "melts". 

Once a body gets big enough, radioative decay (far more important
several billion years back and likely equally important in any
forming solar system due to supernovas helping "push" things together)
will cause first the "ices" to melt, which lets the grains of other
materials sink to the center. 

This gives a layer of ice over a layer of liquid over a loosely packed
core of stony material. Eventually as the radioactives decay it'll
freeze. 

If it's big enough, the stony part will melt and form various minerals.
And the stuff not soluble in alumina and silica will settle to the
center giving a nickel iron core.

Once enough planetismals come together, they start sweeping up any
others that get close. As well as remaining gas and dust. Big enough
collections become gas giants, brown dwarfs or even stars. 

Once a star lights up, it drives out the gas and dust from the inner
system, causing it to get collected by the larger of the planets
farther out. Which grow even bigger. 

It also tends to bake out the "ices" on inner system bodies unless they
are already small gas giants. This gets distributed to the outer system
as well. 

And depending on factors we aren't sure of, gas giants may slowly
spiral inward in many systems until the gas and dust that are slowing
them are gone. In the process they tend to absorb any planets that
formed in orbits inside of their original orbits (though they may also
eject some from the system).

In any case, the only way to *get* a nickel iron core is to be a body
larger enough to melt from internal heat, large enough to have a enough
nickel and iron, and small enough to not turn into a gas giant.

Such bodies will, due to simple elemental abundances, have *much* more
stony material than nickel-iron.

If they are small enough, and there are enough of them to form a "belt"
you'll get colisions fragmenting the surface and you could get an
exposed iron core. But that takes a pretty small body. 

Anything that's even a size 1 planet is way too big for that. 

So only systems with *really* skewed elemental abundances will have
worlds with densities much higher than Earth's. Or other *really* weird
situations. The pulsatr planets, rocky planets that are insanely close
to their primary (work out what would be left of Earth after a few
billion years at 0.1 AU from the sun, for example). etc.

> Finally, all non-jovian planets form from Supernova remnants. That's what
> (a) manufactures the heavier elements in the first place, and (b) creates a
> large cloud of particulate and gas that condenses to form a new star. The
> presence of anything above the lighter elements in the solar system implies
> that the Sun and its family owe their existence to the previous catastrophic
> death of a long dead star.
>
> If you are referring to oddities like pulsar planets here, then I'd agree
> they would probably be denser if they formed from debris. But then, its more
> likely that a pulsar has captured a body ejected from another system, as
> supernovas tend to clear the area near the site of the explosion and drive
> all the suitable accretion material well away from the pulsar itself. That
> Hubble image of the 1987A (?, can't remember the designation now) supernova
> remnant shows this in practice - a huge shockwave travelling at relativistic
> velocities away from the pulsar corem driving superheated gas and
> particulate with it.

Except that they are likely to have some sort of accretion disks of
matter that *didn't* reach escape velocity. That's apt to be
preferentially enriched with denser materials.

>> Ain't gonna happen. The abundance of materials in the cloud of dust and
>> gas a system forms from means that anything with a substantial iron
>> core will have a lot more rocky material overlying it.
>
> Just because it's less likely doesn't mean it won't happen. A few years ago,
> superjovians in the inner system were thought impossible, and then guess
> what they found ?

But that just showed that orbits weren't as stable as we thought, and
that large bodies might form close to where the star did. 

They are still gas giants in most respects.

> Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
> that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
> An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
> perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
> planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
> come up eventually.

Thing is, if it wasn't rare, we'd see more variation in densities of
objects in this system. Only bodies that get that dense are asteroid
fragments. 

The problem is managing to collect all that iron and then get *rid* of
all the *rock* that had to accumulate with it.

Rules of thumb are expected to work *most* of the time. and that's all
the 100 diameter limit is.

>> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
>> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
> Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
> in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
> superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

If they get big enough, that can't happen. so either they formed
farther out and moved in, or they were running a close second to the
body that became the star. 

>> I'm not going to quit indicating emphasis. And the alternatives are
>> asterisks or underlines and the asterisks are much easier to hit.
>
> Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
> message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
> need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
> all.

Sorry, but emphasis can change the meaning of a sentence. And convey
extra meaning. 

>> Yes, it's harder to read a sentence where you individually emphasize
>> each word with them. But that's not what I'm doing.
>
> No, but it made the point - the *'s draw your eyes to particular key words
> and make the sentence harder to read.

Harder for *you*, maybe. You are the only person I've ever heard make
such an argument. And I'm far from the only person who uses them. 

Also, they don't draw my eyes to such words. They modify the emphasis
as I reach the word. They don't "pull" my eyes on ahead.

By your argument, I shouldn't use emphasis in speaking either. And
that's just plain silly.

>> As for patronizing, I'm not responsible for what you read into what I
>> write.
>
> Hah ! Have you ever thought of a career in politics ? :-)
>
> Seriously, if you decide to emphasize particular words, then you are
> attempting to enforce those words and colour the interpretation of the
> sentence, which is what emphasis is all about anyway. Take the sentence
> above, "it's *really* unlikely" - there was no need to emphasize the word
> "really" here at all. The wording was more than sufficient. All you achieved
> was to add a dismissive/patronising tone, as if to say "it's so unlikely
> that it's not even worth considering, so I am not going to".

I emphasized it because if I was speaking I'd stress that word. That's
not being patronizing, that's saying that I consider it very, very
unlikely. Without resorting to overly awkward phrasing. 

>> Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
>> of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
>> something that will be directly proportional to it.
>
> Why does it have to vary with the inverse cube of the distance ? That
> automatically makes the assumption that I argued against, which is "just
> because the figures fit it must be right".

Work it out for yourself. Any "force" that is the same at X diameters
(where X <>1) from bodies of different sizes *does* vary by the cube of
the distance.  That's the way the geometry works. See below.

> I'd agree that the tidal figures
> being identical for a given density across all world sizes seems convincing,
> until you remember that densities are not going to be uniform at all. Then
> the "figures matching" evidence breaks down (IIRC, Larger rocky/terrestrial
> worlds are likely to have a higher density, as their proto-cores must have
> been more massive during accretion to gain the additonal mass in the first
> place - therefore as you go from UWP Size 1 to A, the density is likely to
> increase, and the tidal force likewise).

Except that back when the 100 diameter ruke was set forth, all the
rules for calculating things about planets explicitly stated that you
were to assume that they had the same density.

Check out the reprints of the first three books.

> Might it not make more sense to say that 100 diameters was a simplification
> for the game, and an arbitrary value, rather than cook the Physics books to
> justify it ? If you are going to make a "realistic-feel" limit for Jump
> Drives, it would make more sense to define it in terms of the gravitational
> field strength and forget the diameters thing entirely, except maybe as a
> passing comment such as "for Earth this occurs at 100 planetary diameters".

Work out the field strength at 100 diameters for size 1 thru 10 planets
assuming densities similar to that of earth or even Mars. The figures
are *way* off. 

Since field strength varies by inverse *square*, but mass varies as the
*cube* of the diameter, you get huge differences. 

Call the mass of a size 1 world 1. And the field strength at 100
diameters 1. 

A size 10 world has 1000 times the mass (volune is proprotional to the
cube of the size). It's 10 times bigger, which makes 100 diameters, 10
times as big as with the size one world. So we have 1000 times the mass
but only 10 times the distance. With an inverse square law, that means
the force would be 1000/(10^2) stronger.

X = KM/R^2

So the field strength at 100 diameters from a size 10 world is ten
times that of the strength at 100 diameters from a size 1 world of the
same density.

To get density differences to make up the differences, the *larger*
world would have to be 1/10th as dense as the *smaller* world. And that
ain't gonna happen.

If the force varies by the inverse *cube*, then you've got 1000 times
the mas at 10 times the distance, but instead of X=KM/R^2, you've got
X=KM/R^3. 

So you've got 1000/(10^3) = 1

*That* is why it has to depend on the inverse cube. 

I worked out the fact that inverse cube was needed *before* I knew that
tidal forces followed an inverse cube law.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:43:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:43:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b8e294f89b54@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20417.014254.3E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 7:00 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>  > The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also
>>>  true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to
>>>  another will depend on how far apart they are.
>>
>>You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
>>depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
>>ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
>>forces).
>
> I'm not sure what force you are talking about.  The force on any one 
> part of the ship is the force of gravity.  Tidal forces are the 
> relative difference in forces between different parts of an object.

The "tidal forces" are due to a combination of gravity *and* motion. 

Remember, the ship is assumed to be in "free fall" (ie freely
responding to gravity in some sort of orbit) when you figure the tidal
acceleration due to the body the ship is orbiting (Note: I'm using
"orbit" loosely, to include things like parabolic and hyperbolic
trajectories) 

The "tidal forces" are due to differences in the strength of the
primary's field and due to the motion of the ship in it's orbit.

The magnitude of the forces depends not on the size of the *orbiting*
body, but on the distance from the center of mass of that body, and
what direction you are from the center relative to the line connecting
primary and satellite.

So, at a given distance from earth, the tidal forces at the center of
mass of a ship due to Earth will be *zero*. At they will increase as
you move away from that point. The direction and magnitude of the
forces depends on the distance from that center and upon the direction
relative to the line joining that point to the center of the Earth.

Anything "attached" to the ship is subject to those forces. 

The forces will be the same at 100 meters in a given direction from the
center of the ship whether the ship is a tiny scout with a pole
sticking out in that direction or or 1 km long ship with that point
being inside the ship.

Secondary effects due to the mass distribution of the ship will modify
those forces. But it's not the "size" of the ship per se that
determines the strength or direction of the forces.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:43:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:43:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCECFCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
> How penetrating is ionising radiation in general?

Alpha particles will be stopped by skin (will travel 5-7cm in air).
Ingested alpha emitters are problematic, though.

Beta particles travel 2-8m in air. They might actually traverse
the abdominal or chest wall, if you're really thin.

Gamma rays have a half thickness (50% attenuation) of 12cm of water.
Fast neutrons (energy of more than 500keV) have greater
penetration than gammas.

The fudge factor I suggested accounts for the increased radiosensitivity of
the ovary.

Their location is irrelevant as the most likely radiation types encountered
will be gamma radiation, neutrons and cosmic rays.

David Summers wrote :-
> I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the
> fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
Damn shame, that <g>.


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:45:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:45:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F169fBi0SHfgcSoVW04000117c4@hotmail.com>

Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to 
enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?

This concept is pretty palatable in the US, because there has to be 
jurisdiction for a court to hear a case and due process is constitutionally 
guaranteed.  But is that necessarily the case in the Imperium?

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:45:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:45:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8e293c05231@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204170923130.29728-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, David P. Summers wrote:
> Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can 
> easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the 
> skin (or more than a meter or two of air).

Hm, don't alpha particles have even less range than beta? I remember
something like centimeter scale ranges in air.

Of course, they won't penetrate the skin. Still, if you get them into your
body, they are mighty dangerous: the heavier the particle, the greater the
damage. (Alpha particles are helium nuclei, that is, two protons and two
neutrons, and about 8000 times more massive than electrons which make up
beta radiation.)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:19:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:19:24 2002
Subject: [TML] The L-E Digest?
Message-ID: <F82qi8VjUwZcSlVviFl0000bd6b@hotmail.com>

In mail, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) asked:

>Nah, if everyone who goofed did that who'd be posting? :-)

<tongue-in-cheek>
Um, just you?
</tongue-in-cheek>

Jeff.
"Who ordered the Meat Feast with extra Bantha?" - Pizza the Hutt.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:21:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:21:06 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.220459.6d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Check out how much space *8* tons (mass) of liquid oxygen takes up.
>
> I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?
>
> When I scoop ice from an iceball, I get lots of hydrogen in the form
> of water.  Water is a more compact way to store hydrogen than LH2.  So
> I *keep* the water.  I run the ammonia, methane, or some more water
> through the fuel processor to fill up the smaller LH2 tanks (possibly
> extracting some nitrogen for life support), throw away all the
> methane, and either keep or throw away the ammonia.

You want it because you were making such a fuss about not being able to
use oxygen to convert methane to water and CO2 because you'd lose the
oxygen if you threw away the CO2.

Also, what version of Traveller are you running? Most version have jump
fuel being the majority of the tankage?

>> And you'll have to have to have *seperate* tanks for the 9 tons of
>> water, the 8 tons of LOX, and the 1 ton of LH2.
>
> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
> over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
> LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
> unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
> paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.

Only if the *mass* of the ship doesn't matter in your TU. Because you
are using 9 times the *mass* even if the tank is smaller. Which will
have a major impact on performance.

> The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
> volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
> water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
> upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.

Only at the cost of *not* being able to refuel by scopping at a gas
giant. The atmosphere is 90%+ hydrogen. So unless you carry along all
that extra oxygen (LOX is the easiest way to do so) you can't use
it. Not unless you can store it as LH2. Which you can't do in the water
tanks.

>> Oh yeah, actually, the odds are you'd seperate the methane *first*,
>> simply because it will be the first component of the mix to turn
>> into a gas.
>
> Yep, mainly so I can get rid of it before putting it in the tanks at
> all.  Ammonia I can deal with later, since I don't need highly
> expensive long-term cryogenic tanks to hold ammonia solution.  I can
> separate it later if I want.

No, but you can't use the water for drinking, and it needs special
handling as ammonia water is corrosive.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:21:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:21:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20416.223451.7R6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson writes:
> <Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would 
> work
> reasonably well against just about any weapon.>
>
> Ok, what is the difference between sand and chaff?  I always that chaff was 
> strips of foil cut to a particular length of the
> wavelength of a radar, and the sand in a sandcaster used particles of the 
> correct size to interact with the laser wavelength.  I thought they were 
> the same process.

Nope. The particle size for light wavelengths is *way* too fine. And
the mechanism would be rather different anyway.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20416.221609.5h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/16/02 3:50 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:
>
>> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
>> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
>> over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
>> LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
>> unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
>> paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.
>> 
>> The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
>> volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
>> water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
>> upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.
>> 
>
> Just curious, but what about storing H2 as hydrides?  Don't you get a higher
> density?

But an even worse *mass* penalty than water, ammonia or methane.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:26:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:26:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018999846.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20416.223754.8r1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>> 
>> The particles take a fair amount of energy to melt. While molten they
>> continue to retro-reflect part of the beam and disperse the rest.
>> 
>> They take even more energy to vaporize and form a plasma easily. The
>> plasma is opaque to laser energy and absorbs even *more* of the beam
>> energy.
>
> Now, let's consider a typical example: a typical TTL13 X-ray laser.
> It focuses to a beam 1 cm wide, with an unclear duration; we'll
> assume 100 milliseconds, as that will avoid significant problems with
> the beam impact point moving.  The total beam energy is on the order
> of 400 megajoules, and has a damage value (T4) of 50.

That's a *pulse* energy.

> The target is a 200 dton sphere, with a cross-section of 240 square meters. 
> One can at AV 50 is 320 kilograms.  Since the beam has a cross-section of
> 0.0001 m^2, it actually strikes 0.13 grams of sand.
>
> As it happens, X-rays can go through that much material without even worrying
> about getting it out of the way.  Ignoring that, if we assume the 'sand' is
> synthetic diamond, it has a heat of vaporization of 8 kilojoules.  Further
> ignoring the fact that X-rays don't generally reflect very well, through a
> variety of tricks we'll argue that the actual energy of vaporization is 1
> megajoule (125x greater).
>
> 399 megajoules to go.  Well, perhaps the vapor is opaque.

Well, plasmas tend to be very opaque to many wavelengths. Obviously,
you tune the composition of the "sand" to enhance this.

> Let's add another
> megajoule to the vapor, heating it up to some obscene temperature, and assume
> that 90% of the absorbed energy is lost to immediate reradiation.  The
> remaining 100 kilojoules causes the gas in the path of the laser to explode
> outwards, with an average velocity of 39 kilometers per second.  1 
> microsecond
> later, the plasma has had its density drop by a factor of around 10, which
> should allow the X-rays to shine through.  Since the power output is 4
> megajoules per microsecond, the total energy absorbed by the sand is maybe 5
> megajoules.  Gee, only another 80x increase in efficiency and we'll actually
> stop the beam.

Excuse me? 4 megajoules per microsecond is 4 *terawatts* beam beam. 

A 4 megajoule *pulse that lasts a microsecond *is* apt to get stopped.
Or at least badly dispersed.

>> Well, in space, outside of low orbit, stuff like sand and "smoke" tend
>> to be rather more effective, because they don't get left behind. 
>
> Well, if you don't use any thrust and use gravetics to prevent the stuff from
> wandering, sure.

Check the rules. Sand is *specificly* described as getting left behind
if you accelerate.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:27:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:27:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20416.232156.7Z0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Dear Folks -
>
> In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see 
> <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file 
> their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
>
> Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and 
> although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the 
> end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned 
> for a financial year until after you've earned it.
>
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
> timetable works??

For normal people, the tax year runs from Jan 1 to Dec 31. Employers
have until Jan 31 to get the W-2 forms (which show how much you made
and how much tax was withheld) to you. And you've got until April 15th
to file your taxes for the year that ended Dec 31.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:29:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:29:07 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20416.150551.5I5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <00ec01c1e624$f8803f10$1f9e15ac@warrior>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?


> In mail you write:
>
> > ObTrav:  There is a (Star Trek created?) stereotype of
> > the engineer who can fix anything but no one can tell
> > how he does it.  What other stereotypes are common in
> > your games?
>
> The "engineer as wizard" stereotype has existed *at least* as long as
> widespread use of steam engines. And some would argue it goes back to
> the old seige engineers of medieval and Roman times.
>

I seem to remember reading somewhere that early artillerists were considered
practioneers of black magic :)



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:57:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:57:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>; from david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au on Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:56:56AM +1000
References: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020416192131.A14539@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:56:56AM +1000,
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> 
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
> timetable works??

You've until 15 April to post your tax return--that is, the
calculation of how much you owe or are owed--for the _last_ year.  So
a few weeks back I posted my return for 1 January-31 December '01.
Ended up owing money, which annoys a lot of people, but not me.

Why?  Because I held onto that money for the duration of the year, and
thus could earn interest on it.  Getting a tax return from the gov't
is another way of saying that you lent it some great sum without
interest.  Who'd want to do that?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The English love making fun of foreigners, whose mere existence they
regard as an enormous jest.                             --Iain Pears

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:59:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:59:45 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020416231641.82811.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417083837.009f5b80@mindspring.com>

At 09:16 AM 4/17/02 +1000, you wrote:

>Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
>are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
>pointy stick :)

Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future leader of men?  :P


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"What are we gonna do tonight Brain?"
"the same thing we do every 4 years Pinky,
Judge Olympic Figure Skating!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 10:01:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 09:01:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half 
>of the original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has 
>elapsed, 1/4 decay in the next half-life period, 1/8 in the 
>half-life after that, etc.
>

then it's not possible to accelerate *any* mesons at all, 
given their half-life.  Almost all of them would be gone 
before they got to the end of the accelerator.

Please contact Los Alamos and inform them that the meson 
accelerator that they have been using since 1968 is a fake.  
It sends beams of mesons out without irradiating the 
accelerator.  The only items that become "hot" are in the 
target area.  Please explain how that is done.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 10:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Apr 17 09:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
Message-ID: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com>

I can think of one good reason for ships to ignore their own '100D Limit', 
the Solomani beating the Vilani, Starships to refuel from Gas Giants, 
Stewards et al to earn seemingly inflated wages and a whole host of other 
'unrealistic' issues with the Official Traveller Universe...

It is a GAME - it is meant to be FUN.

Yes, we can enjoy trying to 'prove' or 'disprove' various facets of 
Traveller "life" based on current knowledge, but please remember that:
(a)not everybody really cares if it is possible in RealLife(tm) to dodge a 
laser 'fired' by someone standing five feet away,
(b)Earth is flat/the center of the Universe; man will never travel quicker 
than 25mph without suffocating; man will never reach the moon; Einstein's 
"Special THEORY of Relativity" is, um, a theory...
(c)we know more now than the Great Ancient Ones wrote the LBBs.

It could just be me, but I sometimes get the impression that we get a little 
wrapped up in discussing the technical aspects of the game and forget that 
it is "just a game".
There is much more information available in the 'public domain' than when 
the first edition of "Traveller" left the printers.  We seem to have people 
from nearly all walks of life in the TML membership (except Lawyers:-), so 
we have a much greater depth and breadth of experience an knowledge to draw 
upon.

Or, to quote the Wise Old Bird...

"Because it is artistically *right*..."

Whinge over, I now return you to your previous incarnations...

Jeff
(By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how 
much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight 
slows the game a little..?)

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 10:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 09:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204171605.EGN07388@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug gives advice:

>>Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
>>are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
>>pointy stick :)
>
>Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future 
>leader of men?  :P
>

God help them.  I'm almost of the opinion that officers 
should be enlisted first.  Even academy cadets should 
complete 2 years before going to the academy.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:36:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:36:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not?
In-Reply-To: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204171212050.4680-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Jeff Rowse wrote:
> It is a GAME - it is meant to be FUN.

But these discussions ARE fun!

> (a)not everybody really cares if it is possible in RealLife(tm) to dodge a 
> laser 'fired' by someone standing five feet away,

Nobody really has to care; the discussion can and should be ignored
whenever it gets in the way of actually playing the game.  Very few posts
to this list are accompanied by the message, "Warning: we recommend
avoiding Traveller until this issue is resolved.  Proceed at yourown risk."

> (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how 
> much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight 
> slows the game a little..?)

Roll to see if I eat your spleen.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:37:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:37:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020417203822.1ab3cb30.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Roseberry wrote:
> Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
> Architects fees? Anyone?

Slartibartfast

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20416.223754.8r1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019061859.2225.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
>
> > 399 megajoules to go.  Well, perhaps the vapor is opaque.
> 
> Well, plasmas tend to be very opaque to many wavelengths. Obviously,
> you tune the composition of the "sand" to enhance this.

Right, I'm assuming this.
> 
> Excuse me? 4 megajoules per microsecond is 4 *terawatts* beam beam. 

Sure.  A 400 megajoule pulse lasting 100 microseconds.
> 
> A 4 megajoule *pulse that lasts a microsecond *is* apt to get stopped.
> Or at least badly dispersed.

Agreed.  The problem is we have a 400 megajoule pulse that lasts 100
microseconds.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:47:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:47:44 2002
Subject: [TML] LAMPF - a meson facility!
In-Reply-To: <200204170105.EFJ07268@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019061201.9084.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> ObTrav:  After your ship is hit by a meson weapon, assuming 
> you're still alive, is the ship a radioactive wreck?

Not in the area people are still alive.  Energy required to make appreciably
radioactive far exceeds energy required to kill.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:48:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:48:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F169fBi0SHfgcSoVW04000117c4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019060914.2767.ajackson@ping>

Sam D writes:
> Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to 
> enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?

No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in state
courts work.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:49:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:49:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019061329.2060.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> then it's not possible to accelerate *any* mesons at all, 
> given their half-life.  Almost all of them would be gone 
> before they got to the end of the accelerator.

Nah.  The half-life of charged mesons is sufficiently long that if you generate
them in the accelerator, they can be accelerated to a reasonable energy before
too many of them decay.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not?
Message-ID: <20020417185524.030254508@mo120usjc.palm.net>

Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
__________
>On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Jeff Rowse wrote: 
>> It is a GAME - it is meant to be FUN. 
>But these discussions ARE fun! 

In a bizzare fashion, yes.  They do tend to chase down rat holes self-repecting rats would turn their noses up at.

Trust me on this. Not only have I been down those rat holes, I've given tours and probably have squatters rights by now.

>> (a)not everybody really cares if it is possible in RealLife(tm) to dodge a  
>> laser 'fired' by someone standing five feet away, 
>Nobody really has to care; the discussion can and should be ignored 
>whenever it gets in the way of actually playing the game.  Very few posts 
>to this list are accompanied by the message, "Warning: we recommend 
>avoiding Traveller until this issue is resolved.  Proceed at yourown risk." 
> 
>> (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how  
>> much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight  
>> slows the game a little..?) 
>Roll to see if I eat your spleen. 

Ah...but they let you use your Really KEWL medical rules.  Break out the transplant rules!

"Wadda yous mean you shoot out his liver!?! Doc sez I'm on da wagon till I get a new one.  If you think I'm mean drunk, wait to see me in a DT fit."

> 
>	Gregory Kettler 
>	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before." 
>			--Dave, KODT 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New Filk
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417092008.009ea920@mindspring.com>

I put this up on my Live Journal, but it didn't get much response there, so 
I'd thought I'd post it here.

Flaming Eye

To the tune of "The Red Queen" by Leigh Ann Hussey
(note: the scansion and exact wording were lifted from the Annwn version of 
Bob Kanefsky's "Black Flag" parody, so there may be slight variations from 
the original.)


And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space
Lift up your mugs and cheer
We'll put the Terrans in their place
We're Vilani privateers

Full three thousand years and more we owned all these suns
'Till the bloody Terrans barged right in and put us on the run
But not all have bended knee, some of us are roaming free
A hidden fight that's the key, fought with blade and gun

(Chorus)
And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space
Lift up your mugs and cheer
We'll put the Terrans in their place
We're Vilani privateers
With the plasma beams burning blue
We'll burn that freighter through and through
Take the ship and kill the crew
Beware the flaming eye

Now some try to change their fate with money no longer theirs
And others try to awe by putting on stately airs
But nothing can change the fate
Of peasant or of potentate
Out the lock they go, for no one really cares

(Chorus)

We hear they're hunting us, we think that's OK
We're all itching for the chance to blow traitors away
The Terran Navy, it's to laugh
It's Vilani hulls, by more than half
We know the tricks of the battle staff, and quietly slip away

(Chorus)

It's "target lo! hard a' port, making for the jumping line"
Of escorts or Q ship tricks there isn't any sign
We'll cut that freighter's hull apart
And sell off all the useful parts
Including all the crewmens' hearts, if we make market on time

(Chorus)

And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space . . .

(Instrumental)

And we sell the loot
And we sell our slaves
Awash in riches we party on for days
Then the Captain calls us all back on board
The patrols are getting closer
Our war goes on even as we get old
It won't end until I'm good and dead and cold
Even then I'll live on in my comrades' eyes
Or as a meal, our shugulli's real
And he's already come to look me over

(slowly)
And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space . . .

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.192354.1u3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEEDDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> >> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were 
> "boiled" off.
> >
> > Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
> > a nitpick.
> 
> I was going by the figures in the post I was responding to, which had a
> higher density listed for Mercury.

No, they didn't. I quoted 5.43 for Mercury, 5.52 for Earth.

Regds

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:34:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:34:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20417.014121.1p5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
>> There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes are for
>> mesons that are *not* in motion.
>
> They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half of the
> original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has elapsed, 1/4 decay in
> the next half-life period, 1/8 in the half-life after that, etc.

Also, 1/4 decay in *half* the half-life. And 1/8 decay in half of
*that*. Etc.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:35:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:35:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416222132.009fa690@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20417.024825.4W7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>         I appreciate the comments of everyone who has replied to my initial 
> post.  I gather that sandcasters would work best
> against optical wavelengths and might require a lot of sand, but are not 
> entirely infeasible.  Particle beams and X-ray lasers appear to be another 
> kettle of fish entirely.  Years ago, before the internet, before I knew 
> anyone besides myself might be interested in space combat, I checked out a 
> copy of The Effects of Nuclear Weapons.  In it I found some interesting 
> tables on the 1/2 value thickness of various material versus various forms 
> of radiaton.  The 1/2 value thickness for X-rays was approximately 20 grams 
> per square cm for heavy metals.  But that was for a solid plate of 
> iron.  If the beam had to pass through a long distance (a few hundred 
> meters) would that make any difference?  I am wondering if a long 
> scattering distance would reduce the required density.

Actually, as long as there are 20 grams of heavy metal in a 1 cm square
column between you and the x-ray source, it still work. Doesn't matter
if the column is 1 mm tall or 1 km tall. 

That's how the atmosphere can shield from x-rays. It's not very dense,
but there's a *lot* of it. 

Ditto for how smoke blocks sight. It's a bunch of *really* fine
particles. Not much density, but there are so many that any light
trying to get to you from the other side always runs into a particle. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:47:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:47:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 18:28:14 GMT Daylight Time, 
texasredshift@hotmail.com writes:


> At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
> Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
> judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
> 
> Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
> Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?
> 
> What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?
> 
> Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
> 

I have to say that in MTU (and I make no claim that this is transferable to 
anyone elses) there is no such thing as Imperial law in the sense of 
statutes. Instead all decisions are driven by the precedent of rulings by 
Emperors, or their legitimate servants, on the same (or similar) subjects. 

The role of lawyers is to argue precedent or to force the passage of decision 
up the hierarchy of courts until precedent is set. Theoretically the final 
arbiter is the current Emperor, who can set new precedents or overturn old 
ones. Practically the Emperor delegates this role to selected nobles and to 
the moot except in exceptional circumstances.

My courts apply the same burden of proof in both civil and criminal cases, in 
my case "on the balance of probabilities" rather than "beyond reasonable 
doubt". Juries are not a recognised concept and instead panels of nobles 
ranging from one to the entire moot, depending on the case, make decisions 
after hearing argument. It does not take a genius to work out that the system 
is highly open to abuse.

There is no real distinction between civil and criminal law at the Imperial 
level. Instead all cases are treated in the same way and dealt with through 
the same channels. The main difference is that in some cases precedent holds 
that the court should appoint Imperial investigators to gather evidence. In 
other cases the burden of investigation lies entirely with the litigant. 
 
Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 18:28:14 GMT Daylight Time, texasredshift@hotmail.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">At the base of this topic is one key issue:&nbsp; How litigous is the Imperium?<BR>
Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?&nbsp; Or are lawsuits rare and<BR>
judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?<BR>
<BR>
Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?<BR>
Is jury trial available?&nbsp; Are judges elected? Appointed?<BR>
<BR>
What does canon have to say on this?&nbsp; What do you have to say?<BR>
<BR>
Bill Scheets aka "Tex"<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I have to say that in MTU (and I make no claim that this is transferable to anyone elses) there is no such thing as Imperial law in the sense of statutes. Instead all decisions are driven by the precedent of rulings by Emperors, or their legitimate servants, on the same (or similar) subjects. <BR>
<BR>
The role of lawyers is to argue precedent or to force the passage of decision up the hierarchy of courts until precedent is set. Theoretically the final arbiter is the current Emperor, who can set new precedents or overturn old ones. Practically the Emperor delegates this role to selected nobles and to the moot except in exceptional circumstances.<BR>
<BR>
My courts apply the same burden of proof in both civil and criminal cases, in my case "on the balance of probabilities" rather than "beyond reasonable doubt". Juries are not a recognised concept and instead panels of nobles ranging from one to the entire moot, depending on the case, make decisions after hearing argument. It does not take a genius to work out that the system is highly open to abuse.<BR>
<BR>
There is no real distinction between civil and criminal law at the Imperial level. Instead all cases are treated in the same way and dealt with through the same channels. The main difference is that in some cases precedent holds that the court should appoint Imperial investigators to gather evidence. In other cases the burden of investigation lies entirely with the litigant. <BR>
 <BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:48:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:48:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <20417.014121.1p5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net> <20417.014121.1p5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020418082417.B31848@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Also, 1/4 decay in *half* the half-life. And 1/8 decay in half of
> *that*. Etc.

A minor quibble -- 30% decay in the first half of the half life, and
16% decay in 1/4 of the half-life.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:49:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:49:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F169fBi0SHfgcSoVW04000117c4@hotmail.com> from "Sam D" at Apr 17, 2002 02:39:00 PM
Message-ID: <200204172127.g3HLRW601938@localhost.uia.net>

> Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to 
> enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?
> 
> This concept is pretty palatable in the US, because there has to be 
> jurisdiction for a court to hear a case and due process is constitutionally 
> guaranteed.  But is that necessarily the case in the Imperium?

I'm not sure how exactly this would tie in to Traveller, however, there
is a strange situation which has cropped up recently with NAFTA (the
north american free trade agreement). Apparently, there's a section
which states that if nation A (or a jurisdiction thereof) passes a
law which impinges upon the profits (or future profitability) of a
company based in nation B but doing business in nation A, then the
company can sue nation A. The real trick is that this doesn't go
to a court of nation A or nation B. Instead, it goes to a private
three-judge tribunal, one judge appointed from each nation, and
the third judge (the chairman of the tribunal) being appointed by
both. Their proceedings are secret (no reporters allowed), and they
routinely hand out multi-million dollar judgements.

As just one recent example, there's a gasoline additive formerly
used in California which helps oxygenate the gas and helps it
burn more cleanly. However, the stuff is toxic, and one drop
getting into the groundwater can ruin acres of water. So California
decided to phase the stuff out. However, the Canadian company that
produces it cried foul, sued through NAFTA, and if my understanding
is correct, the 3-judge tribunal sided with them.

The reason the US wanted this special tribunal in place is because
we don't trust the Mexican courts, however, we've already used the
same tactic against Mexico. Again, if my understanding is correct,
an American company paid kickbacks to some officials in the
Mexican government to obtain a permit to use a certain area of
their land as a waste dump (not sure if it's a toxic dump or what).
Anyway, so the locals got angry and passed a local ordinance to
stop what the company was doing. So the company sued Mexico through
NAFTA and won.

From what little I've read, the Mexicans are unhappy about this
whole situation, the Canadians are uneasy, and the USA is a bit
conflicted, some people claiming that private business should not
have to shoulder the costs of environmental protection while others
point out that in the first example, if the company producing the
gasoline additive were based in the USA, it would not have been able
to sue California for passing a law to phase out the additive, but
because the company was Canadian, it could sue through NAFTA, the
net result being that foreign companies have more rights than
domestic. So basically, NAFTA seems to make it better to do business
abroad than to do business at home, and it also makes it much more
difficult for politicians to pass environmentally protective laws
because of the potential legal/financial ramification brought by
foreign companies who's nations are signators to the treaty.

How all this relates to Traveller, I'm not sure. It may be that
worlds will use a system of treaties and joint tribunals to
negotiate their legal disputes. However, because of the canonical
existence of the nobility and the existance of subsector and sector
government, I would tend to find it more likely that there would
be a level to the Imperial judicial system which supercedes the
authority of nation-worlds. This is a bit tricky, because it takes
some degree of sovereignty away from individual worlds, so how
exactly one would draw the lines is an interesting question.
Somebody should really write a book or article focusing on the
Imperial legal system, preferably somebody already well versed in
International Law, but also mindful of, say, late Roman history
or whatever society people would consider analogous to the Imperial
model.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:51:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:51:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417010106.E5149279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204180015090.24858-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Stephen Tempest writes:

>Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Somewhere around 1,500 quadrillions would be my guess (15 trillion people
with an average of Cr10,000).

Andrew Jackson wirtes:

>Hm...my figure seems to be at 103PCr/year, which is well within the margin of
>error.  Of course, there's a fairly significant problem with the old Atlas of
>the Imperium data -- there's only around 9,000 imperial worlds, not the 11,000
>there's supposed to be.

Do you mean 9,000 systems rather than the 10,000 there's supposed to be?
IIRC the figures are 11,000 worlds in 10,000 systems, implying quite a lot
of systems with multiple worlds (But don't ask me to back this up with a
quote, I've no idea where I got that notion). I admit that we've seen
precious little evidence of multiple worlds elsewhere in canon (But when I
get around to doing my planned writeup of Deneb, I'm going to change
that).


Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:53:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:53:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417010106.E5149279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417165617.00a9ea90@mail.pi.se>

Hello everyone!

>Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

<snip>

>Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
>that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
>An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
>perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
>planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
>come up eventually.

There is a simple way to make planets more dense without changing the basic 
composition. Bigger terrestrial worlds will have higher density because of 
compression, which is far more effective for bigger bodies. Just adding 
more rock will make the rock more dense.

Earth has a compressed density higher than Mercury, but the uncompressed 
density is considerably less. If a planet had the composition of Mercury 
and the radius of Earth, which potentially could happen in an decently 
iron-rich inner system with a major collision between two large rocky 
worlds, that planet would have even greater density than Mercury has, say, 
somewhere between 6 and 6.5. If a world with the composition of Earth is 
50% greater in radius it also would likely have higher density than Earth.

On the other hand, if we think of an Earth-size world with the composition 
of Mars, it would still have a density of say, 4.5 to 5. I'd argue a more 
common problem in RPGs is that densities for Earth-like worlds are too low. 
(Big world with low density to generate decent gravity-style.)

If we list some solar system bodies, with the compressed density first and 
the uncompressed density afterwards:

Mercury 5.4     5.3
Venus   5.2     4.3
Earth           5.5     4.5
Moon            3.3     3.2
Mars            3.9     3.8

Incidentally, this also means that the GURPS divisions into say, "low-iron" 
and "medium-iron" worlds is rather non-useful for terrestrial worlds of 
differing sizes than Earth.

When it comes to high densities, superjovians, brown dwarves and red dwarf 
stars are other examples of where a 100D-radius may be considerably 
different from a version based on tidal differential force. A small red 
dwarf star can have a density 50-100 times higher than the Sun - or any 
material on Earth, for that matter. A medium-size brown dwarf more than a 
billion years old could easily have a density several times greater than 
Earths average.

> > The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> > much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
>Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
>in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
>superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

A possible other reason is that Mercury experienced, just like Earth, major 
impacts which blew off quite a deal of the surface.

When it comes to hot superjovians, their escape velocity due to high 
gravity is enough to keep gasses from escaping. Those gas giants 
will  probably be bigger in radii than normal outer system gas giants can 
be, because of the energy they receive from the star. There was a nice 
paper on 51 Pegasi's inner planet, but I can't find it right now. If anyone 
is interested, mail me off-list and I'll provide the link when I find it...

>Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
>message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
>need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
>all.

I believe emphasis has its points, but emphasizing too many words, say one 
in ten, makes posts difficult to read without reading in a "tone" of the 
post. I usually overemphasize like _this_ far too often. ,-)

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:54:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:54:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20417.024825.4W7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019073068.7515.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Actually, as long as there are 20 grams of heavy metal in a 1 cm square
> column between you and the x-ray source, it still work. Doesn't matter
> if the column is 1 mm tall or 1 km tall. 

Doesn't really need to be heavy metal, heavy elements are a bit better, but the
difference is not terribly impressive.  However, a really thick barrier might
reduce the ability to penetrate armor by refraction, not sure to what degree
X-rays can be refracted without being absorbed.

20g/cm^2 sounds a bit high for typical x-rays, though.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:55:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:55:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
 <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417154328.0227e168@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:20 PM 4/16/2002, Stephen Tempest wrote:
>Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Yes, many years ago.  The figure was derived from the old DGP sector files 
using CT (Striker and TCS) figures.  I had MCr 219,474,958,700 for the 
Gross Imperial Product.  SO, no - the Imperium could not (in a million 
years) afford to build a jump-capable planet.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:56:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:56:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters (2nd try)
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417224940.00aac690@mail.pi.se>

Hello everyone!

>Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

<snip>

>Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
>that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
>An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
>perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
>planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
>come up eventually.

There is a simple way to make planets more dense without changing the basic 
composition. Bigger terrestrial worlds will have higher density because of 
compression, which is far more effective for bigger bodies. Just adding 
more rock will make the rock more dense.

Earth has a compressed density higher than Mercury, but the uncompressed 
density is considerably less. If a planet had the composition of Mercury 
and the radius of Earth, which potentially could happen in an decently 
iron-rich inner system with a major collision between two large rocky 
worlds, that planet would have even greater density than Mercury has, say, 
somewhere between 6 and 6.5. If a world with the composition of Earth is 
50% greater in radius it also would likely have higher density than Earth.

On the other hand, if we think of an Earth-size world with the composition 
of Mars, it would still have a density of say, 4.5 to 5. I'd argue a more 
common problem in RPGs is that densities for Earth-like worlds are too low. 
(Big world with low density to generate decent gravity-style.)

If we list some solar system bodies, with the compressed density first and 
the uncompressed density afterwards:

Mercury 5.4     5.3
Venus   5.2     4.3
Earth           5.5     4.5
Moon            3.3     3.2
Mars            3.9     3.8

Incidentally, this also means that the GURPS divisions into say, "low-iron" 
and "medium-iron" worlds is rather non-useful for terrestrial worlds of 
differing sizes than Earth.

When it comes to high densities, superjovians, brown dwarves and red dwarf 
stars are other examples of where a 100D-radius may be considerably 
different from a version based on tidal differential force. A small red 
dwarf star can have a density 50-100 times higher than the Sun - or any 
material on Earth, for that matter. A medium-size brown dwarf more than a 
billion years old could easily have a density several times greater than 
Earths average.

> > The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> > much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
>Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
>in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
>superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

A possible other reason is that Mercury experienced, just like Earth, major 
impacts which blew off quite a deal of the surface.

When it comes to hot superjovians, their escape velocity due to high 
gravity is enough to keep gasses from escaping. Those gas giants 
will  probably be bigger in radii than normal outer system gas giants can 
be, because of the energy they receive from the star. There was a nice 
paper on 51 Pegasi's inner planet, but I can't find it right now. If anyone 
is interested, mail me off-list and I'll provide the link when I find it...

>Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
>message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
>need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
>all.

I believe emphasis has its points, but emphasizing too many words, say one 
in ten, makes posts difficult to read without reading in a "tone" of the 
post. I usually overemphasize like _this_ far too often. ,-)

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:57:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:57:22 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020416222702.02624008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3CBDD666.1080706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> At 02:40 PM 4/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>> William Lane wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the 
>>> list. to
>>> everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off 
>>> topic
>>> info.
>>
>>
>> That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
>> XML to Cobol and back...
> 
> 
> 
> Way cool!  Can I add this to my Traveller Maintenance Blues page?
> <http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html> 
> 
> 
Why surely!

Hey everybody...this is blanket permission to put anything I write here 
on your web sites, if you want.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:58:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:58:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F18T2Y89RdrUnR65Cbk00002a25@hotmail.com>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Sam D writes:
> > Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to
> > enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign 
>judgments?
>
>No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
>difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in 
>state
>courts work.

I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home turf, 
because that is the only place you can collect.  That should discourage 
litigation, and make a lot of lawyers rich with asset protection seminars.  
Maybe some worlds would become big Switzerlands where the wealthy hide their 
dough.

So I guess you would sue free traders where there ship is registered, 
because that is where title would be?  Then how do you actually get 
possession if other worlds are free to ignore the judgments of other worlds?

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:58:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Marsh)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:58:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <F53kOhpWL26mtgK3jca000025a8@hotmail.com>

Just to muddy the waters a bit. I am not so sure that the ovaries are that 
more sensitive to radiation than, say, testes but that a womans lifetime 
supply of egg cells are produced at the onset of puberty and the ovaries is 
the time released delivery system. The older the woman the older the eggs. 
This is unlike the testes which make em fresh as they go.

The woman's eggs are more sensitive in that the older the eggs the longer 
the possible exposure to radioactivity over the years.

However, I would think all things being equal a woman's ovaries being 
internal vs testes being external would make the man's reproductive cells 
more prone to radiation induced errors.

ObTrav: Perhaps on a world where there was a high background level of 
radiation there might exist a market for healthy donor eggs from another 
planet.


>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: Re: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:25:31 +0300 (EEST)
>
>On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, David P. Summers wrote:
> > Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can
> > easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the
> > skin (or more than a meter or two of air).
>
>Hm, don't alpha particles have even less range than beta? I remember
>something like centimeter scale ranges in air.
>
>Of course, they won't penetrate the skin. Still, if you get them into your
>body, they are mighty dangerous: the heavier the particle, the greater the
>damage. (Alpha particles are helium nuclei, that is, two protons and two
>neutrons, and about 8000 times more massive than electrons which make up
>beta radiation.)
>
>--
>Mikko Parviainen
>"I quote signatures."
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


th

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:59:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:59:44 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020417.130803.-189643.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 08:39:43 -0700 Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> At 09:16 AM 4/17/02 +1000, you wrote:
> 
> >Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
> >are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
> >pointy stick :)
> 
> Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future leader 
> of men?  :P
> 
> Douglas E. Berry 

Nah, he's just a Butter Bar wanna be.

Like Lt. Gorman in Aliens

Hey Top, you take the men in, I'll just watch the camera's, and make sure
my boots don't get scuffed, oh, and once your in the meat grinder I'll be
here to lead you out.

Yes Sir, were on it. Vasquez you take point.


Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:00:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:00:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEICCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Pions can be created by the collision of matter and antimatter.
The creation time can be tightly controlled.  So the start point
for acceleration to relativistic speeds is therefore controlled.

It requires far less handwaving than that required for plasma/fusion
weapons.

Neither of the latter can produce a "bolt" of plasma that
can fly downrange, in air or in vacuum.  No guide beams, etc, 
are going to help.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:01:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:01:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204170923130.29728-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204170923130.29728-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8e39ddf9659@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:25 AM +0300 4/17/02, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, David P. Summers wrote:
>>  Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can
>>  easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the
>>  skin (or more than a meter or two of air).
>
>Hm, don't alpha particles have even less range than beta? I remember
>something like centimeter scale ranges in air.

Yeah.

>
>Of course, they won't penetrate the skin. Still, if you get them into your
>body, they are mighty dangerous: the heavier the particle, the greater the
>damage. (Alpha particles are helium nuclei, that is, two protons and two
>neutrons, and about 8000 times more massive than electrons which make up
>beta radiation.)

Energy is how heavy and how fast.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:02:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:02:32 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <20416.215513.5m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.215513.5m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8e39e6db7f9@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:55 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 1:28 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in
>>>   > near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near
>>>>   misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a
>>>>   single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?
>>>
>>>We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
>>>outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.
>>
>>  We are looking.  There is a program underway to catalog Earth
>>  crossing asteroids....
>
>Yes, but they are looking for the *big* ones, not the measly little
>hundred meter jobs. Detecting those would be nice, but if one hit it
>wouldn't be much worse than a big nuke.

Well, as you say, they would look for them if they could, so the 
original issue is we look for what we can see is valid.....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:03:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:03:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20417.014254.3E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20417.014254.3E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8e39f21e24f@[143.232.119.186]>

>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 7:00 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>   > The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also
>>>>   true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to
>>>>   another will depend on how far apart they are.
>>>
>>>You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
>>>depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
>>>ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
>>>forces).
>>
>>  I'm not sure what force you are talking about.  The force on any one
>>  part of the ship is the force of gravity.  Tidal forces are the
>>  relative difference in forces between different parts of an object.
>
>The "tidal forces" are due to a combination of gravity *and* motion.
>
>Remember, the ship is assumed to be in "free fall" (ie freely
>responding to gravity in some sort of orbit) when you figure the tidal
>acceleration due to the body the ship is orbiting (Note: I'm using
>"orbit" loosely, to include things like parabolic and hyperbolic
>trajectories)
>
>The "tidal forces" are due to differences in the strength of the
>primary's field and due to the motion of the ship in it's orbit.
>
>The magnitude of the forces depends not on the size of the *orbiting*
>body, but on the distance from the center of mass of that body, and
>what direction you are from the center relative to the line connecting
>primary and satellite.
>
>So, at a given distance from earth, the tidal forces at the center of
>mass of a ship due to Earth will be *zero*. At they will increase as
>you move away from that point. The direction and magnitude of the
>forces depends on the distance from that center and upon the direction
>relative to the line joining that point to the center of the Earth.
>
>Anything "attached" to the ship is subject to those forces.
>
>The forces will be the same at 100 meters in a given direction from the
>center of the ship whether the ship is a tiny scout with a pole
>sticking out in that direction or or 1 km long ship with that point
>being inside the ship.
>
>Secondary effects due to the mass distribution of the ship will modify
>those forces. But it's not the "size" of the ship per se that
>determines the strength or direction of the forces.

Motion has nothing to do with it.  If you take a ship and hold it 
stationary wrt the planetary body it will still encounter tidal 
forces.  If you had so much thrust that you could hold you ship 
stationary near a black hole, tidal forces can still tear the ship 
apart (and/or squeeze it together).

Lets look at this more generally.  Gravity changes with distance. 
That means that things that are at different spots experience 
different gravitational forces.  If these things are different 
objects, then their forces due to gravity (and their accelerations) 
are just different.

If these things are part of a rigid object, they can't have different 
accelerations and forces occur trying to pull the object apart (along 
the axis toward the body, it get squeezed together along the 
perpendicular axis).  This is the tidal force (or on aspect of it, it 
can also turn objects around, etc).  The bigger the object is, the 
further the different parts are apppart, the bigger the differences 
in the force of gravity, the  greater the tidal force is.

You are also being loose with the difference between tidal forces and 
tidal acceleration.  Different forces would produce different 
accelerations in different parts of the body if they weren't 
compensated by internal forces in the body (unless it is within the 
Roche limit and the body breaks up).

Getting to the original point.  The quantity that is close to being 
an explanation of the 100 diam limit is the gravitational gadient 
(the rate at which the force of gravity changes with distance).  Now 
this is, of course, is directly related to the tidal force (the tidal 
force depends directly on this and the size of an object) so some 
call it a tidal <this or that>.  I happen to think the gravitational 
gradient gives more intuitive feel for what the quantity represents.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:04:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:04:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes (was: Quick Query on US Tax Returns)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEDLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417162722.022054a8@mail.qrc.com>

At 08:31 PM 4/16/2002, Andy Brick wrote:
>ObTrav: What about tax returns in the Imperium?

I've tried various schemes in my Traveller games, and the thing that worked 
best was to ignore it entirely.  Here's the way it works IMTU:

The Imperium collects taxes from member worlds; as part of their 
membership, worlds agree to many things.  This includes the requirement 
that the world will pay taxes to the Imperium based on a percentage of the 
world's assessed Gross Planetary Product (GPP).  Most worlds are taxed at 
about 1% of their GPP; the exact rate may vary from world to world 
depending on the details (for example, a TL-1 world with a barter economy 
may not pay taxes at all).  Special taxes may also be assessed from time to 
time (for example, a war emergency tax); tax relief may also be provided in 
some cases.

The Imperial bureaucracy is responsible for setting tax rates, assessing 
GPPs, and ensuring the money is collected into the treasury.  In general, 
these operations are routine: GPPs are determined by the IISS Imperial 
Grand Survey and are generally well-known; world governments remit their 
taxes and the Imperial government has funds with which to 
function.  Enforcement (and the settlement of disputes) is the 
responsibility of the Imperial Nobility, who may be able to set policy 
(depending on their status and area of responsibility) and can call on 
Imperial resources (Navy, Marines, Army) to enforce it.

Individual citizens are not responsible for any taxes to the Imperium; 
there is no per-capita or personal income tax at the Imperial 
level.  Planet-bound corporations also do not pay Imperial taxes.  However, 
member worlds are free to tax their corporations and residents however they 
see fit; different worlds have different policies, and probably every tax 
or revenue-generation scheme that has ever been conceived is in operation 
somewhere in the Imperium.  Different worlds may have different ideas about 
who can be taxed (many worlds, particularly those with sealed environments, 
levy a tax on everyone who visits the world).

Active Imperial military, starship crews, and other travellers who do not 
generally reside on any particular planet do not generally pay 
taxes.  Some, who wish to retain citizenship on a particular world, will 
pay taxes anyway and may even participate in other civic responsibilities 
(voting, civil service, etc.) in absentia.

Imperial corporations (that is, interstellar corporations with an Imperial 
charter) do not pay taxes to any world, nor do they pay taxes to the 
Imperium.  However, long-standing custom dictates that when a corporation 
is granted an Imperial charter, the company gives the Imperial family a 
gift of small fraction (typically around 1%) of it's shares.  Many Imperial 
corporations, particularly those who are not otherwise owned or backed by 
nobles, also give smaller numbers of shares to other important nobles in 
their area of operations.

Thus, while taxes can be a motivating factor for political or economic 
events in my Traveller universe, they are not generally something that the 
PC's have to worry about (unless, of course, they happen to be outside of 
the starport extrality fence on New Hong Kong for Tax Notification Day).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:05:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:05:12 2002
Subject: [TML] The L-E Digest?
References: <F82qi8VjUwZcSlVviFl0000bd6b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBDF4DC.391C2BC0@premier.net>


Jeff Rowse wrote:
> 
>>snip>>
> 
> Jeff.
> "Who ordered the Meat Feast with extra Bantha?" - Pizza the Hutt.

In reference to your .sig file, check this page from BBspot:

http://bbspot.com/News/2002/04/before.html

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:07:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:07:23 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20416.220459.6d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net> <20416.220459.6d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020418082212.A31848@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?
...
> You want it because you were making such a fuss about not being able
> to use oxygen to convert methane to water and CO2 because you'd lose
> the oxygen if you threw away the CO2.

I did.  That doesn't mean I want to have a special LOX tank just in
case I can find hydrogen but not water.  Most of the time I'm going to
be buying water from the starport I'm docked at.  Most of the rest of
the time, I'll be getting it from iceballs or seas.  That's much safer
than gas giant skimming, if nothing else.  In a desperate situation, I
*might* come across a system that has a gas giant but no water.  (The
only plausible cases I can think of involve a gas giant inside the
star's 100D limit) In that case I can still skim hydrogen gas and
process it into the LHyd tank for a 1-parsec jump.  If there is any
water in the GG atmosphere (likely if there is no water elsewhere), I
can collect that too, diffuse though it may be.

In short, I don't need (nor want) LOX.  I don't need (nor want) to
burn methane.  I want *water*.


> Also, what version of Traveller are you running? Most version have jump
> fuel being the majority of the tankage?

GT, but I did the same in MT.  It is *my* Traveller universe, after
all.


> Only if the *mass* of the ship doesn't matter in your TU.

By and large, it doesn't.  In the OTU either.

The single overwhelming factor in determining the running cost of a
ship is the mortgage.  The single overwhelming factor within that is
the cost of jump drives, which depend entirely on *volume*.


> Only at the cost of *not* being able to refuel by scopping at a gas
> giant. The atmosphere is 90%+ hydrogen.

That just means you need to spend a bit longer scooping for the other
stuff, a time which in itself is relatively minor compared to the time
taken to get to and from a gas giant's 100D limit.  But why perform
that dangerous maneuver at all when you've got almost always got
lovely little microgravity water sources nowhere near so deep into a
100D limit?


> No, but you can't use the water for drinking,

I can after I remove the ammonia.


> and it needs special handling as ammonia water is corrosive.

Scary.  You were talking about hundreds of tons of cryogenic LH2.
Ever looked up the MSDS for that?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:11:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:11:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Bomb pumped lasers - was Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20020416221003.EBEC727A30@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16xlxZ-00044d-0W@anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net>

> I seem to recall something about X-ray lasers being developed, but they're not
> exactly weapons-grade.  The old SDI people talked about bomb-pumped X-ray
> lasers, a mechanism which AFAIK has never been successfully demonstrated, not
> that this prevent people from using it in SF.

So how theoretical or handwavium are bomb-pumped lasers? Is it just that we haven't developed the technology to successfully produce them, or is it that they're physically not possible?

Rob.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:12:07 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OF8A9C8510.72B94182-ON85256B9D.004D468D@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBD717E.1040301@magpiesnest.co.uk>

William Lane wrote:

 >
 >>> has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a
 >>> line at wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.
 >>>
 >
 >> Certainly have Bill (though now I tend to use JAXP, which is
 >> based around
 >>
 > Xerces but has differences). Send me your >questions and I will do
 >  my best to answer them for you.
 >
 > Here is what im doing im developing a java application that reads
 > an xml file and parses it into 3 seperate COBOL data files. the
 > cobol group eventually runs their apps and uses the data from
 > these flat files. once they are through they send them back to
 > me. i then want to parse these 3 files into a single new xml file.
 >
 > i have gotten to where i am creating the new document. i can append 
children on it ect.. ect..
 >
 > however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to 
actually be
 > written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im new to XML 
and Xerces
 > is not the best documented thing i have ever worked with. i was 
looking at
 > maybe using the serializer to send a outPutStream through it. but 
it would
 > seem to me that xerces should have a way of building this document 
out on
 > the drive.
 >
IMHO, the Serializer is the best bet because it will control the data 
structure better than writing direct to a FileOutputStream



-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk

 > > children on it ect.. ect..
 >
 > however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to
 > actually be written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im
 >  new to XML and Xerces is not the best documented thing i have
 > ever worked with. i was looking at maybe using the serializer to
 > send a outPutStream through it. but it would seem to me that
 > xerces should have a way of building this document out on the
 > drive.
 >
IMHO, the Serializer is the best bet because it will control the data 
structure better than writing direct to a FileOutputStream (although 
you can certainly do that if you like). The thing to remember is that 
when it is built an XML file is simply an ordinary text file with an 
".xml" extension instead of a ".txt" extension.

What I tend to do is use the DocumentFactory to create a new XML 
document, pile in the data by adding the nodes one by one, then grab 
the file I want to create (or update), delete the original (because 
its easier than setting a file lock) and write out the new file to the 
same filename. It isn't how it ought to be done, but I find it makes 
life easier.

Probably though, it would be worth your while taking a white paper off 
the www.java.sun.com page and seeing how it "should be" done. That way 
you are not just hacking code the way I do.

-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org> <3CBC9A4C.4000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CBD7023.2090608@magpiesnest.co.uk>

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> William Lane wrote:
> 
>>
>> Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the 
>> list. to
>> everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
>> info.
> 
> 
> That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
> XML to Cobol and back...
> 
> oBTRav> Captain finds engineer hip deep in the Jump drive controller 
> with an exceptionally old-looking piece of hardware in his hands.
> 
> Captain: "Good lord, Scottie! That's a jump *tape* reader! What is that 
> antique doing on my jump drive??"
> 
> Engineer: "Well Captain, we cannae find the right components to rrepair 
> the drive controller. Urgvark" he points to a crazed looking Vargr 
> assistant engineer, "...found this in a antique shop. We're tying it 
> into the saircuit right now."
> 
> C: "But how will we control it? I haven't seen a jump tape in my life 
> that wasn't in a museum!"
> 
> E:"Well Captain, I have a writing head from a holocorder here, we can 
> connect it to the main computer, and have it translate the control 
> instructions from the astrogation program to the correct patterns that a 
> jump tape would have. It should work, in theory, sah. " Shouts "OK 
> Urgvark! Give me some power..."
> 
> <SNAP> <Pop fsssssshhhhhh> "Turn it off! Turn it off!"
> 
> E: Through the smoke..."Ahh captain, we're going ta need some morrre 
> time..."
> 
> C: weeps.
> 
> 

Keyboard kill !!! And a waste of coffee :(

-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:21:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:21:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
 <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417154328.0227e168@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3CBDFF31.826843F6@premier.net>


Derek Wildstar wrote:
> 
> At 05:20 PM 4/16/2002, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> >Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?
> 
> Yes, many years ago.  The figure was derived from the old DGP sector files
> using CT (Striker and TCS) figures.  I had MCr 219,474,958,700 for the
> Gross Imperial Product.  SO, no - the Imperium could not (in a million
> years) afford to build a jump-capable planet.

Not even if they cashed in Betty Shugili (r) points from boxtops of
Groatburger Helper (r)? ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F18T2Y89RdrUnR65Cbk00002a25@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019084922.7419.ajackson@ping>

Sam D writes:
> >
> >No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
> >difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in 
> >state
> >courts work.
> 
> I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home turf, 
> because that is the only place you can collect.

Nah, if the defendant has a local office (sales outlet, whatever) you can sue
the local unit.

> So I guess you would sue free traders where there ship is registered, 
> because that is where title would be?  Then how do you actually get 
> possession if other worlds are free to ignore the judgments of other
> worlds? 

Well, as long as the free trader never visits the port where the judgement
against it was made, no problem.  If you ever visit that port, they can impound
your ship.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:24:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:24:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>

At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
>that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)

Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  Can 
I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
minds of men? I don't think so!

I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                     -Adam West, as Batman 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020418093454.A32118@freeman.little-possums.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!

Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
best minds in medical science?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020418095314.B32118@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Please contact Los Alamos and inform them that the meson accelerator
> that they have been using since 1968 is a fake.

I think you'll find that their mesons are *charged*, and furthermore
are moving at a really good clip when they are created.


> It sends beams of mesons out without irradiating the accelerator.

I bet it does.  It just doesn't induce significant amounts of
radioactivity in the walls of the beam tube.  Besides which, the
*density* of energy release is much greater in the target region
because the mesons collide with stuff, not decay there.


> The only items that become "hot" are in the target area.  Please
> explain how that is done.

It's pretty simple.  Pi mesons interact quite strongly with matter.
When the (remaining) mesons reach the target area, they don't "decay"
there.  They *collide*.  Collision products (and secondary products)
include a whole zoo of particles, and a few odd isotopes many of which
are radioactive with significant half-lives.

This is very different from the description of meson guns in
Traveller.  Traveller meson move unimpeded through matter, have
lifetimes instead of half-lives, and those lifetimes can be controlled
to within one part per trillion.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 18:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 17:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CBE0CC8.5010706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the 
>> fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
> 
> 
> Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
> injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  
> Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud 
> the minds of men? I don't think so!
> 
> I want my money (along with my spleen) back.
> 

But you got that back, didn't you?

Maybe that's the super power...'Grows Spleens'.

Nobody ever said it would be a GOOD superpower...;-P

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 17:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <3CBE0CC8.5010706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAGEIOCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Bruce and Doug complain about their lack of superpowers
<snip>

How do you think I feel?  I've straddled many a
thermonuclear warhead, in the forlorn hopes that
something would happen (super mutant children, for
one).

Nothing!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <p04330106b8e3cd72c219@[143.232.119.186]>

>At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the 
>>fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
>
>Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and 
>even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead 
>tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not 
>even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>
>I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that 
gets powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an 
"accident", so maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but 
whether it was "accidental".  :-)

(Though I wonder, how do you know you don't have any super powers? 
Have you _tried_ to change the course of a might river?)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <20020418093454.A32118@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417180901.009fd010@mindspring.com>

At 09:34 AM 4/18/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
> > Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> > tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> > even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>
>Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
>best minds in medical science?

That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm 
going to sue somebody.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:26:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20417.015559.9o2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFADPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi

> Also, the post I was replying to had the wrong density for Mercury, and
> had it being denser than earth. I didn't check my references until
> someone pointed out the error.

You were replying to my post, and the densities were correct there.

> The sort of normalcy I'm talking about is based soely on elemental
> abundances and the way a cloud of dust and gas collapses to form
> planets.

<lots of snippage>

> So only systems with *really* skewed elemental abundances will have
> worlds with densities much higher than Earth's. Or other *really* weird
> situations. The pulsatr planets, rocky planets that are insanely close
> to their primary (work out what would be left of Earth after a few
> billion years at 0.1 AU from the sun, for example). etc.

Well, since no-one yet fully understands the exact mechanisms by which said
cloud collapses, and since no one has yet surveyed any solar system in
detail other than our own, I'd say you were making some pretty big
assumptions about what is normal and what isn't. In addition, whilst
universal elemental abundances may in part define the mean abundance for a
given element in a given solar system, you will get local variations.
Finally, I was not looking at "really skewed" densities - I was looking at a
margin increase in the density of a terrestrial planet to 6g/cc or higher. I
would expect the densities of pulsar planets etc to be much higher than
that.

BTW, as an aside, Red Dwarfs display similar relative elemental abundances
to the Sun, but are many , many times denser.

> But that just showed that orbits weren't as stable as we thought, and
> that large bodies might form close to where the star did.

Not quite my point - this showed planets with volatile gases could survive
in the inner system, which previously had not been thought common nor
"normal". This in turn implies that your basis for "normalcy", i.e. our
solar system, may not be as normal as you think.

> They are still gas giants in most respects.

Off topic a bit this, but Superjovians are not mere gas giants, at least not
in the Jupiter/Saturn/etc sense. They are much larger (though still somewhat
short of Brown Dwarf status), and in these systems they are heated
considerably by virtue of the proximity to their primary.

> Thing is, if it wasn't rare, we'd see more variation in densities of
> objects in this system. Only bodies that get that dense are asteroid
> fragments.

Nonsense. As I am trying to get across to you, you cannot take this solar
system and assume that all other solar systems will be pretty much the same.
This bias is, in fact, a major gripe of mine with Traveller world generation
systems - they are very good at generating systems very similar to our own
but not so good at generating systems which aren't. You are taking a very
Sol-centric view of the universe.

What you are suggesting makes as much sense as examining one species of
insect, say a butterfly, and then assuming that all other species of insect
are very similar if not identical - when in fact they are not.

> The problem is managing to collect all that iron and then get *rid* of
> all the *rock* that had to accumulate with it.

One word - collision. Check out my earlier mail re the formation of the
Earth Moon system by collision with a body roughly equal to Mars. All of the
Moon is formed from the "rocky layer" of both protoplanets. Make the
impactor larger, and hey presto, more rocky material is knocked off into
space, leaving the cohesive core behind.

And collisions are very common early in the history of an accreting cloud,
after all.

> Rules of thumb are expected to work *most* of the time. and that's all
> the 100 diameter limit is.

Exactly - it's a rule of thumb. So don't bother trying to generate an exact
or precise derivation for it - you cannot have it both ways - either it's an
inaccurate rule of thumb, or a precise mathematical law. It can't be both.
You say one thing here, and something completely different at the end of
your mail.

> Sorry, but emphasis can change the meaning of a sentence. And convey
> extra meaning.

Sure. If used sparingly, and only where necessary.

> Harder for *you*, maybe. You are the only person I've ever heard make
> such an argument. And I'm far from the only person who uses them.

Not just for me, for many people.

Good netiquette is to make use of emphasis sparingly and only when
necessary. You do not do this. There was no need for example, to emphasise
the word "you" in the above sentence. It would have carried the same meaning
without.

I would suggest also that you read the guidelines for the clearer use of
English, published by the Campaign For Clear English.

> Also, they don't draw my eyes to such words. They modify the emphasis
> as I reach the word. They don't "pull" my eyes on ahead.

Then you read in a most unusual way. Most people I know, including my 5 year
old daughter, read one word at a time for sure, but are drawn to words in a
piece of prose that are highlighted or marked in some manner and will look
at those first. To give an example, my daughter has a book where the
sentence "The chicken laid an egg" has the word "egg" printed in red. This
word is the word that people see first, because it stands out, even if they
then read the sentence normally. To use emphasis on a whim as you do makes
the text distracting and hence harder to read, all with little or no extra
meaning to the reader other than that already available in the content
itself.

> By your argument, I shouldn't use emphasis in speaking either. And
> that's just plain silly.

No, I said that you shouldn't use unnecessary emphasis. There is also a
considerable difference between emphasis in  a block of text (where I can
see all of the emphasised or highlighted words first before I have reached
them) and emphasis in speech (where I have to wait to hear each word in
linear sequence, and cannot therefore be distracted by
future words). The brain is better at detecting difference than conformity,
you see.

> I emphasized it because if I was speaking I'd stress that word. That's
> not being patronizing, that's saying that I consider it very, very
> unlikely. Without resorting to overly awkward phrasing.

Why stop there, then ? Why not use stress markers to indicate which syllable
is stressed, or which sonant ? Why not add "beat" marks for pauses shorter
than commas ? Why not ? Because you don't need to, that's why. The reader is
perfectly capable of adding these details, given the context of the
sentence - it's part of the parsing effort of reading in the first place.
Also, you shouldn't need to resort to awkward phrasing to make a point.

> Work it out for yourself. Any "force" that is the same at X diameters
> (where X <>1) from bodies of different sizes *does* vary by the cube of
> the distance.  That's the way the geometry works. See below.

You missed the point. I don't dispute what you are saying, and I'm sure that
your math is perfectly correct, but you've gone off on a tangent. My
argument was that the 100 diameter rule is probably arbitrary, and given
that densities will certainly vary even if only over a limited range, using
tidal forces makes it no more uniform than any other derivation. Far better
to define a tidal gradient limit or gravitational field strength limit where
the misjump threshold is, and then calculate how many diameters out that is.
At least that way you don't need a mathematical false premise of uniform
densities across all planetary sizes in order to make the derivation fit the
rule. Of course this means that 100D is reduced to a rule of thumb, and the
actual distance varies from say 90 to 110D or whatever, but that makes more
sense.

In fact, making the 100D a rule of thumb probably means that this is a
"safe" threshold, and the actual limit occurs considerably closer, say
50-70D out but rarely higher. That means that 100D is almost always safe,
but usually way off the actual value. Compare with operational and critical
maximum dive depths for submarines, for example - the sub may take 450m of
water, but the manual may set a limit of 375m to be on the safe side.

> Work out the field strength at 100 diameters for size 1 thru 10 planets
> assuming densities similar to that of earth or even Mars. The figures
> are *way* off.

Now try the same with tidal forces where the Mars size planet has a density
equal to that of Mars, and the Earth sized planet has a density equal to
that of the Earth. Do you get the same answer ? No. This only works if all
of the 10 worlds in your calculation have the same density, which makes no
sense. Better to define jump limits in terms of field strengths, tidal force
values, etc, than a distance/number of diameters. Sure the distance will
vary, but the rule is then usable in all situations and is more internally
consistent.

Regards

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] That Traveller Sensation
Message-ID: <200204180138.ELB02368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Watching Forbidden Planet again...
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330106b8e3cd72c219@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417182539.009eb920@mindspring.com>

At 06:13 PM 4/17/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
>>>that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
>>
>>Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
>>injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead 
>>tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not 
>>even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>>
>>I want my money (along with my spleen) back.
>
>Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that gets 
>powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an "accident", so 
>maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but whether it was 
>"accidental".  :-)
>
>(Though I wonder, how do you know you don't have any super powers? Have 
>you _tried_ to change the course of a might river?)

I'm half tempted to say yes, just for the reaction...


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
                          -Chicago reader, 10/15/82


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020417200008.009f3500@mail.attbi.com>

Douglas Berry wrote:
 > Hey! How do you think I feel? I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
 > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
 > tube! Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers? Not
 > even. Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!

	Didn't you get the Control Penguins Power?  I thought you had, or maybe it 
was the Penguin Projection Power .  No, wait, isn't that the Bits project, 
Penguin Projection?  Geez, now I'm really confused. :)
	By the way, I just got my copy of ACQ.  You have been added to the list of 
games I will buy just because of the author's demonstrated competance.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3CBED3F3.19368.F24A04@localhost>

On 17 Apr 2002 at 8:31, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
> >that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
> 
> Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
> injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  Can 
> I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
> minds of men? I don't think so!
> 
> I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

Well I'd suggest re-growing an organ from nothing counts as a super-
power.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <200204171605.EGN07388@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost>

On 17 Apr 2002 at 12:05, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Doug gives advice:
> 
> >>Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
> >>are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
> >>pointy stick :)
> >
> >Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future 
> >leader of men?  :P
> >
> 
> God help them.  I'm almost of the opinion that officers 
> should be enlisted first.  Even academy cadets should 
> complete 2 years before going to the academy.

I'm very definitely of that opinion.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417222045.020ccec0@192.168.0.1>

At 08:31 AM 4/17/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
>>that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
>Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
>injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  Can 
>I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
>minds of men? I don't think so!
>I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

Oh come on...you *are* growing the spleen back.


------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Writing about jazz is like dancing about
architecture" -- Thelonius Monk
------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
In-Reply-To: <3CBDD666.1080706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020416222702.02624008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417222814.00cd62e8@192.168.0.1>

At 01:09 PM 4/17/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>>At 02:40 PM 4/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>William Lane wrote:
>>>>Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
>>>>everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
>>>>info.
>>>That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
>>>XML to Cobol and back...
>>Way cool!  Can I add this to my Traveller Maintenance Blues page?
>><http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html> 
>>
>Why surely!
>Hey everybody...this is blanket permission to put anything I write here on 
>your web sites, if you want.

Thanks!  It's up there now!



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F179u7r4LYhvH67DL5d0000f1ce@hotmail.com>

Anthony Jackson said

> > >No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
> > >difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in
> > >state
> > >courts work.
> >
> > I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home 
>turf,
> > because that is the only place you can collect.
>
>Nah, if the defendant has a local office (sales outlet, whatever) you can 
>sue
>the local unit.

If the defendant is big and has a local offices sure.  You can play games 
with that though, like having every local office as a separate corporation.  
Because the LIC is granted by the Imperium, local courts probably can not 
break through the corporate veil.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
Message-ID: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>

OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm 
getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.


Anything happen while I was gone?

Loren Wiseman

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
In-Reply-To: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8E37F0C.4CC96%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/17/02 7:31 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm
> getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.

done
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417180901.009fd010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEKFGKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

What if your new found super power is something like
"Manipulate Hivers"
"Jump successfully within 100 D"
"Explain why the islands aren't a Protectorate"

You know . . . useful things.

jml
who with a shovel can alter the course of smallish rivulets

>>>>>>>>>>

At 09:34 AM 4/18/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
> > Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> > tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> > even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>
>Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
>best minds in medical science?

That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm 
going to sue somebody.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:42:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:42:05 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
In-Reply-To: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAEEJDCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Loren comes back from the dead:

>Anything happen while I was gone?

Not much. I "do" have a question.

When you first started in on this,
back in the beginning of it all,
did you ever think that decades later,
the same players would endlessly 
discuss "canon" about the things 
you and the others wrote?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:47:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:47:25 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
References: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002b01c1e683$27970f00$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:31 PM
GDWGAMES@aol.com said,

> Anything happen while I was gone?

Just the attack of the Zhodani Penguin elite.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail". - Gore Vidal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:52:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:52:16 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
In-Reply-To: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEKHGKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Oh nothing.

Whistles innocently

Sure is nice weather isn't it

______________________________
Caesar:  I'm so mad, I just have to vent my spleen at someone

Brutus:  (fingering dagger)  Here, let me help

jml
______________________________ 


OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm 
getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.


Anything happen while I was gone?

Loren Wiseman
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEHHCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com>
>
>At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
>Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
>judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
>
>Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
>Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?
>
>What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?

Canon is generally silent on this question.  Milieu Zero posits rather an
intrusive Imperial legal system, but I think it withers over time as the
Imperium expands to the entire extent of the Ziru Sirka, and declines to
impose any but the mildest requirements on member states (calendar, Imperial
credit, abolition of slavery).

The questions you present therefore require answers on two levels: member
states and the Imperium itself.  As to member states, there are 11,000
different answers, so I won't comment further.

The Imperium itself must strike a balance between autocracy and sufficient
rule of law for commerce to function.  Access to the Imperial civil courts
will be limited to matters that involve only Imperial law, such as
interstellar commerce and certain disputes between nobles.

I've written pretty extensively on this topic in the past.  You might want
to check the TML archives.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes (was: Quick Query on US Tax Returns)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417162722.022054a8@mail.qrc.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEDLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
 <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020417223728.00a730f0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 05:35 PM 4/17/2002 -0400, Derek Wildstar wrote:

>Thus, while taxes can be a motivating factor for political or economic 
>events in my Traveller universe, they are not generally something that the 
>PC's have to worry about (unless, of course, they happen to be outside of 
>the starport extrality fence on New Hong Kong for Tax Notification Day).

Especially if you see a big Hoffmanite wearing an old X-Tel uniform running 
for the gate.

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sporadic announcement of traveller Webrings
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417234404.00ce37d8@mail.charter.net>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/TravRings.html>

I have all the Traveller related webrings I know of listed on this page.

I'm the RingMaster for the Gearhead ring & the Reavers' Deep ring.

Please feel free to join either of those if you have appropriate content.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417180901.009fd010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <003301c1e68b$dbbfb060$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Wednesday, April 17, 2002 6:09 PM
Douglas Berry said,

> That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm
> going to sue somebody.

Hey, Spleen Regeneration is a perfectly fine super power.  Just make sure
that you always take bullets in your spleen.

The bad news is your GM is going to charge you 30 character building points
for this advantage.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force. And,
like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master!"  -George
Washington


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 22:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 21:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F60NIPDrGsWt3ogiUBy000123e6@hotmail.com>

I am looking at an old article from JTAS (I think) called High Justice by 
Terry McInnes.  It deals with criminal cases, but I thought it would shed 
some light on civil law.  At the imperial and subsector level of justice, 
there are courts wtih 3-9 judges.  So, at least according to this article, 
there are courts of some sort and not just nobles dispensing justice.  FWIW.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 00:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 17 23:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <20020418093454.A32118@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204180939270.28080-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Timothy Little wrote:
> > Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> > tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> > even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
> Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
> best minds in medical science?

I think he is still missing the adamantium skeleton and the forearm
spurs...

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 04:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 18 03:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418055518.00a9a050@pop.wizard.net>

Bruce Johnson, regarding Law Level 0 worlds:
>Probably quite polite and formal, since it's likely heavily armed...and 
>the local citizenry is entirely likely to feel that maintaining public 
>order is incumbent on all members of society, as well as enforcement, 
>since LL0 worlds tend also to be low GOV worlds too.
>
>A good one to spring on a bunch of unsuspecting PC's...land them someplace 
>they're expecting to be Dodge City, and discover that it's anything but, 
>that their 'uncivilized' behavior is quickly, but firmly 
>corrected...permanently, if necessary...think a Heinleinian world of 
>self-reliant, armed and polite strangers...

I think the Dodge City reference is usually more apt than the Heinlein 
reference.  In other words, I'm thinking that territories of the United 
States before they became states, during the 1800s, are very instructive 
about the behavior of people when there's no law present.  Usually, low law 
level comes hand in hand with low population level.  The Malthusian 
pressures of population crowding are so low that nobody feels compelled to 
seek to arrange a government, police, and courts.  As population density 
increases, those things begin to be manifested.  Meanwhile, you can indeed 
get away with murder.  If you are more popular than the victim, and you 
have a good story to go along with it.  Or more feared than the victim's 
survivors.  Or you move to a distant part of the country.  Or you hang out 
with family and friends who will protect you or avenge your own death.  For 
fans of Westerns who are more familiar with the actual history of that time 
and place, 'McCabe and Mrs. Miller' is a much more accurate portrayal of 
the usual behavior in a lawless but armed society than an episode of 'The 
Lone Ranger'.

Another example that might be instructive is the evolution of the Mafia, 
Irish gangs, and Jewish gangs, and similar criminal organizations in the 
U.S. (a society that successfully ignored the law, and thus was de facto 
Law Level 0) during the 1900s.  Whoever threw their weight around the best 
got away with the most.  Both in relations between the gangs and relations 
within the gangs.  Exceptions to that rule of thumb tended to happen only 
when the law got involved or when the gangs ran their own private law in 
the form of treaties between gangs and courts run by 'nobles' and 'juries' 
within the gangs.

Heinlein is often invoked in the science fiction world as an example of 
libertarian principles at work.  I don't know how many have read his story 
'Coventry', which was set inside a huge area cordoned off by the U.S. and 
completely without laws.  Citizens of the U.S. who broke the law were 
banished to Coventry to live among the other people who felt they didn't 
need the law.  Contrary to the expectations of the rugged individualist who 
starts the story about to enter Coventry, the people inside Coventry 
evolved their own law, but one that was imposed by the biggest sharks in 
the pool and not so kind and gentle as the law they had just left 
behind.  This was Heinlein's story that most directly addressed the issue, 
and with writer as judge of the conflict between different poliltical 
systems, he clearly found in favor of the democratic one and against the 
libertarian one.

In my own science fiction (running MTU, for instance), I try to make things 
work the way I think it would probably evolve to work in those 
circumstances.  Except when I ignore that in the interests of what I think 
will make a good story, despite loss of realism.  :->  To me, a sparsely 
populated world, with little or no indigenous manufacturing capability is a 
frontier world and frontier justice is rough and the people who populate it 
are tough.  Feuds, mobs, lynchings, etc. occur.  Discharge of firearms 
within the town limits is something the more forward-thinking citizens, or 
at least business-minded citizens, would like to see stop but that doesn't 
stop the rowdy toughs coming through on a cattle drive from doing it.  I 
think that describes the situation of a lot of low law level systems.  That 
deals with systems where there is plenty of land to live on and it is in 
the process of being filled up by people.  Come back to the same spot in 
twenty-five years or even five years and it will be more populated and much 
less lawless.

There are also systems that have a low population that will never rise 
higher, usually because of poisonous atmospheres.  That is the kind of 
frontier that is most likely run as a corporate preserve, a mining 
town.  There is law, but not necessarily justice.  The law isn't law that's 
on the books.  It's just whatever the corporate managers need it to be at 
the time.

A third case of low law level worlds is when a noble administers a 
territory as his or her own private fief.  In that case, it's up to the 
noble how she or he wishes to run things.  That's the formal law.  It's 
also up to the noble to find some kind of police and other apparatus of law 
enforcement, so even a fief with lots of laws on the books may be a de 
facto Law Level 0 place.  The real world examples that most come to my mind 
are Imperial Russia, and the colonies in Africa, South America, and much of 
Asia that were run by the European powers.  A fictional example that a 
friend of mine completely bases his Traveller universe on is the first 
'Dune' book.

For me, those three categories cover most of the times in Traveller that 
you'll have low law levels.  The Dakotas and Utah in the middle 1800s, 
remote mining towns, and colonies or fiefs from various times and places in 
Earth's history.  In all of them, the law still tended to be present at 
least on paper and usually was more interested in representing the bigger 
businesses than anyone else.  The only truly Law Level 0 places I can think 
of from the real world were places that were so unexplored and thinly 
populated that humans never interacted with each other at all, hence no 
need for laws to regulate their interactions.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 04:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 18 03:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
References: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBEA2E8.3622281C@mindspring.com>

Jeff Rowse wrote:

> <snip>
> Jeff
> (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how
> much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight
> slows the game a little..?)

Yes, That's why I assume any hit on a player character completely destroys their
body, brain included.;)

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 04:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 18 03:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
References: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CBEA57A.C7BA93A2@mindspring.com>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm
> getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.
>
> Anything happen while I was gone?
>
> Loren Wiseman
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

No, We've been waiting for you.8)


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
References: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com> <3CBEA2E8.3622281C@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OE50n04x29xDbH8J0sc0000a9f3@hotmail.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:41 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)


> Jeff Rowse wrote:
>
> > <snip>
> > Jeff
> > (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how
> > much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight
> > slows the game a little..?)
>
> Yes, That's why I assume any hit on a player character completely destroys
their
> body, brain included.;)

With a massive explosion, to boot.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
 <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418064717.00a38870@pop.wizard.net>

Bill Scheets asked the following incisive questions:
>As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
>something:
>
>At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?

Not very.  Disputes between nobles are settled by higher nobles or the 
Emperor.  The political fortunes of nobles who get involved in a lot of 
disputes tend to be very bad, including even losing their noble 
title.  This conditions the population of nobles to work things out privately.

>Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?
>   Or are lawsuits rare and
>judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Depends on the planet.  This sort of thing usually belongs to planetary 
law, unless it deals with murder, slavery, or treason/sedition against the 
Imperium.  Each planet's law will be determined by its government, which 
may be as litigious or not as it wishes.

>Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?

Close to the Imperial core, planets tend to be high pop, high law level, 
and with a lot of interstellar commerce.  In such regions, the Imperium's 
wishes to maintain the flow of commerce are much more important than in 
other places.  Reciprocal agreements and extradition treaties between 
worlds have been in place for centuries are fully fleshed out, with 
sufficient bureaucratic backing and law enforcers to keep all that 
machinery running smoothly.  The to-us-familiar apparatus of courts and 
police and regulatory agencies is present, and this includes means of 
resolving civil disputes.  Nobles with power tend to be too busy to spend 
much of their time being directly involved in these matters, but will keep 
their hand in just enough to remind everyone who is boss.  Nobles with more 
title than power can (as has been suggested) and will be made use of to 
help with running the interplanetary justice system whenever things tend to 
bad for public relations or commerce.

Planets in the core will tend to have separate civil and criminal court 
systems.  Their jurisdiction only covers their own planetary governments 
borders.  Contracts between interstellar parties will state which 
jurisdiction they are contracted under, and that jurisdiction's courts will 
rule on disputes over the contract.  Interstellar libel and such will 
either get settled quickly, by a mechanism mutually agreeable to them, by 
the all governments with jurisdiction over the parties to the dispute or 
they can look forward to getting an Imperial noble take a hand in the 
disagreement.  Governments that can't work well with their neighbors in 
civil law disputes will start getting various kinds of pressure from their 
Imperial nobles to conform.  Nobles who also tend to have megacorp ties, 
and who control the gates of interstellar commerce between the worlds.

>Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

Sure, as are any other systems that the various planetary governments favor.


>What does canon have to say on this?

Not much.  The Imperium rules the space between the planets.  Government of 
men not law.  I vaguely remember some JTAS articles that describe the core 
of the Imperium as being much more an Imperial culture and Imperial 
government than the areas closer to the Imperial borders.  Out on the 
fringes, interstellar commerce is usually not as vitally important to the 
local governments and thus the Imperial nobles who govern those regions of 
space have less influence on the locals.  That's as my memory recalls it, 
and I caution that my memory is often unreliable.

Also canon that I think I recall is that the throne and nobles do tend to 
have significant power with the megacorps, and the megacorps tend to have 
significant power on the planets themselves.  And, presumably, the local 
government joined the Imperium to participate in promoting peace, order, 
and commerce and feel at least a little bit motivated to cooperate with 
each other in settling disputes between their citizens.  Or, maybe they 
just joined out of fear as people on the TML often joke, and deeply resent 
even the perception of infringement on their local authority.  The 
interstellar protection racket that is the Imperium is bad enough, in their 
eyes, without adding cultural imperialism and other interference in their 
planets' affairs.  I don't much believe in the protection racket model of 
the Imperium, but there's plenty of latitude in interpreting canon to 
permit it.  At least outside the core of the Imperium.

>   What do you have to say?

I've pretty much completely spilled my guts on the topic in this and my 
immediately preceding post.

Excellent topic and questions, by the way.  The kind of thing each referee 
should address and answer for themselves before they begin a campaign that 
involves interstellar travel.  Or even involves businesses that are 
interstellar.  We won't each have the same answers or the same Traveller 
universes, but that's part of the beauty of the Traveller game system.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020418.075038.-101319.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:13:54 +1000 (EST) =?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=
<quakers_united@yahoo.com.au> writes:
> QUOTE
> > Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> > bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's
> going
> > to see is a cloud of dust ;)
> 
> What, because you have dust in your veins instead of
> blood?  ;-)
> END QUOTE
> 
> No, because I am a vampire from buffy:the vampire
> slayer ;P

But then you would only have to worry if it was a *wooden* pointy
stick... most bayonets aren't made of wood, I suspect.  ;-)


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
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Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why Not? (was 'Why?')
Message-ID: <F270DabigPasSmz6UuE00011c1e@hotmail.com>

In mail, Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> responded to my 
somewhat ill-written missive thus...

>But these discussions ARE fun!

To which I reply...

Most of the time, anyway.  It is just that I have noticed that we often end 
up with some of us (myself included) saying "That wouldn't happen that way 
because..." - forex, Piracy or the effect of a ship's own hull and mass 
being within 100D of the jump point.
Whilst I appreciate the free education I receive from my fellow TML'ers (how 
much would a college or university charge for some of the stuff we give out 
for free??), I don't need to know it as a player character.

So, what is my ship's fuel tank lined with such that the Hydrogen doesn't 
seep out of it?  Ah, Unobtanium.  Wait a second, isn't that what powers the 
lasers I use to shoot holes in an Ethically-Challenged Merchant's ship?

As a matter of idle curiosity, does anyone *really* calculate such things as 
how much liver tissue was damaged, or is it just a case of "Sorry, there 
wasn't enough of the organ left to transplant"..?

Jeff.

"Abandon hope, all ye who press 'Enter' here..."

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 06:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Apr 18 05:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Thunderer class heavy cruiser
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEILEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

For those interested in the ships that could have thought in the
Interstellar War period I present the

THUNDERER CLASS HEAVY CRUISER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION


The Thunderer class were one of the first "battleship" designs built by the
Terrans following their contact with the Vilani.The rapidly advancing
technology of the Terrans soon made the design obsolete and they were
reclassified as heavy cruisers.

Designs effectively identical to the Thunderer continued to be built in
backwater areas and some of these managed to survive until the Second
Solomani Rim War when virus struck the region.

The relatively low tech level of the design meant that a large number were
passed on to client states, allies, and governments the Solomani were trying
to curry favour with. It is possible that at least some vessels of this
class are still in existance.


General Data Displacement: 90,000 tons  Hull Armour: 320
Length: 272 meters  Volume: 1,260,000 cubic meters
Price: MCr26,959.930864  Target Size: L
Configuration: Cylinder SL  Tech Level: 10
Mass (Loaded/Empty): 1,089,834.5929/1,020,193.4023tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 162,000 Mw Fusion Power Plant (50 Mw/hit), 1
year duration (959.888 Mw surplus)
Jump Performance: 2xJump-1 (126,000 cubic meters each)
G-Rating: 3 (45,000 Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G-Turns: 80 (102.4 allowing fuel for 1xJump-1, 124.8 with no jump reserve),
5,625 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 41,398

Electronics Computer: 3xTL10 Fb (0.6 Mw each)
Commo: 3x1,000AU Radio (8, 20 Mw ea), 3x1,000AU Maser (8, 0.6 Mw ea)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics
Sensors: 2xPassiveEMS Fixed Array 180,000km (6 hexes; 0.35 Mw ea),
3xActiveEMS 480,000km (DF Capable; 16 hexes; 315 Mw ea), 2xTL10 Neutrino
Sensor (0.01 Mw ea), 20x Running Lights (0.0001 Mw each)
ECM/ECCM: 300,000km EMS Jammer (10 hexes; 260 Mw), EM Masking (1,260 Mw)
Controls: Bridge with 662xBridge Workstations, Auxiliary Bridge with
662xBridge Workstations, Fire Control Bridge with 231xBridge, Flag Bridge
with 11xBridge Workstations, plus 2,430 Other workstations.

Armament Offensive: 1xTL10 30000-Mj N-PAW (Loc: Spinal; Arcs: 1; 4,166.667
Mw; 67 Crew), 40xTL10 812-Mj Laser 50-ton Bays (Loc: 10x4, 10x5; Arcs:
1,2,3; Loc: 10x16, 10x17; Arcs: 3,4,5; 112.778 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea), 280xTL10
130-Mj Laser Turrets (Loc: 70x2,70x3; Arcs: 1,2,3; Loc: 70x18,70x19; Arcs:
3,4,5; 18.0555 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea), 100xMissile Barbettes (Loc: 20x4, 20x5; 5
ready Missiles or Recce Drones ea; 0.15 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea)

 				Short  	Medium  	Long  	Extreme
30000-Mj Spinal N-PAW  	10:866  	20:866  	40:866  	80:866
-1 Diff Level
812-Mj Laser 50ton-Bay  8:1/23-71  	16:1/12-37  32:1/6-19  	64:1/3-9
-1 Diff Level
130-Mj Laser Turret  	3:1/9-29  	6:1/5-15  	12:1/2-7  	24:1-4
-1 Diff Level

Defensive: 30xTL10 Sandcaster Turrets (Loc: 10x1; Arcs: 1,2; Loc: 10x10;
Arcs: 2,3,4; Loc: 10x20; Arcs: 4,5; 1D10x5 per hit; 20 Cannisters ea; 1 Mw
ea; 1 Crew ea)
Master Fire Directors: 1xTL10 (3 Diff Mod; Non-Msl; 10 hexes; 13.22 Mw; 1
Crew), 40xTL10 (3 Diff Mod; Non-Msl; 8 hexes; 11.43 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea),
140xTL10 (3 Diff Mod; Non-Msl; 3 hexes; 8.074 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea), 50xTL10 (3
Diff Mod; Beam/Missile; 10 hexes; 13.37 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea)

Accomodations
Life Support: Extended (252 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (1G; 6300 Mw)
Crew: 5,492 (2,430xEngineering, 10xElectronics, 4xManeuver, 748xGunner,
522xMaintenance, 150xShip's Troops, 74xFlight Crew, 1,310xCommand,
199xStewards, 45xMedical), Flagship adds 12 (5xElectronics, 6xCommand,
1xSteward)
Crew Accomodations: 8xLarge Staterooms (0.001 Mw each), 2,050xSmall
Staterooms (0.0005 Mw each), 550xLow Berths (0.001 Mw each)
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 9,651.2 cubic meters, twenty eight large cargo hatches
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: 10 95-ton Cinnabar class shuttles with
internal hangers (minimal) and one launch port each, 2 50-ton Shrike class
fighters with internal hangers (minimal) and one launch port each, and 8
40-ton Pelican class launches with internal hangers (minimal) and one launch
port each
Air Locks: 900
Additional Fittings: 3x8-ton Sick Bay (0.8 Mw each), 5x10-ton Machine Shop
(1 Mw each), 5x6-ton Electronics Shop (0.6 Mw each)

Notes:

Fuel purification machinery (1,123.2 Mw) sufficient to purify 140,400 cubic
meters in 6 hours (30 hours for entire load exclusive of power plant fuel).
Fuel scoop capacity 252,000 cubic meters per hour.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  Surface Hits  		Internal Explosion  				Systems
1  	1-13:Ant  			1:PA,2:Sand,3-20:Qtrs  				PP-3240H,
2-3  	1-13:Ant  			1:PA,2-3:LB,4-15:Elec,16-20:Hold  		LS-1702H,FPP-1545H,
4-5  	1-3:Ant,4-5:AL  		1:PA,2-3:LBy,4:MB,5-14:Qtrs,15-20:Hold
ELS-851H,JD-756H,
6-9  	EMMR  			1:PA,2-20:Hold  					PA-391H,
10   					1:PA,2:Sand,3-20:Hold  				Hanger-384H,
11  	1-2:AL,3-6:CH,7-9:EMMR 	1:PA,2-20:Hold  					MD-135H,
12-13   				1:PA,2-20:Hold  					EMM-126H,
14-15	1-10:LP  			1:PA,2-20:Hold  					LBy-10H,LB-2H,
16-17   				1:PA,2-3:LBy,4-8:Eng,9-20:Hold  		AEMS-1H,ElecShop-1H,
18-19	1-2:AL  			1:PA,2-3:LB,4-20:Eng  				EMJammer-1H,
20   					1:PA,2:Sand,3-20:Eng  				LSR-1H,MB-1H,
   												MFD-1H,MFAnt-1H,
   												MachineShop-1H,
   												Neutrino-1H,
   												PEMAnt-1H,
   												Sand-1H,
   												SickBay-1H,
   												EMMR-(1260h),
   												SSR-(2h),
   												All others-(1h)

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 07:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Thu Apr 18 06:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

  I'm almost of the opinion that
> officers 
> > should be enlisted first
Amen to that. Was it ever like that though? Does
anybody know when it stopped if it was? And Why?
I think it instills elitism in the wrong kind of
people and the wrong kind of people are less likely to
be patient enough for a couple of years as a grunt.
Not to say that we don't have some fine officers now,
but they still need to know what it's like to be
treated like a pawn in a chess game. I doubt this
ideology would work well for pilots though.
I was never in the military,but was in AFROTC for a
while,we had a great bunch of guys and gals(with a
couple of bad eggs) but I don't know if they had it
where it counted or not. In ROTC you see a lot of
people with their heads way up in the clouds.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 08:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Thu Apr 18 07:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #416 - 37 msgs
Message-ID: <F50D2nTe1CIGj0gsmDz0000076e@hotmail.com>

In mail, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
wrote...
<<SNIP>>
Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
minds of men? I don't think so!

I want my money (along with my spleen) back.
<</SNIP>>

I dispute that third point.
<zombie_mode>
"Must get GT:Ground Forces...  Don't need food...  Dont need coffee...  Just 
Ground forces..."
</zombie_mode>

Jeff.

"Black helo?  What black helo?  <pause>  Oh sh**!"

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 08:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 18 07:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8E429CE.4E9EA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/18/02 6:46 AM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> I'm almost of the opinion that
>> officers 
>>> should be enlisted first
> Amen to that. Was it ever like that though? Does
> anybody know when it stopped if it was? And Why?

Just bear in mind that there is a reason for the distance between officers
and enlisted (speaking as one who has been both).  As officers you will be
required to give orders to your men that will result in their death or
maiming.  You will know this before hand.  It requires a certain detachment
(at least for non-sickos) to order men to their deaths.

I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that an officer should be required
to be enlisted first.  It's hard to say.  I've seen both kinds of officers,
some good and some bad.  I've seen people who came up through the ranks have
a hard time maintaining 'distance' from their people. Also, the duties of
the two groups are very different.

I suppose one could look at how we've done so far.  The vast majority of our
(US) officers come from ROTC.  We seem to be doing OK.  If it ain't broke,
don't fix it.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 08:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Thu Apr 18 07:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
References: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com> <3CBEA2E8.3622281C@mindspring.com> <OE50n04x29xDbH8J0sc0000a9f3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBEDD60.2050002@gmx.net>

Jeff Yin wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:41 AM
>Subject: Re: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
>
>
>>Jeff Rowse wrote:
>>
>>><snip>
>>>Jeff
>>>(By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how
>>>much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight
>>>slows the game a little..?)
>>>
>>Yes, That's why I assume any hit on a player character completely destroys
>>
>their
>
>>body, brain included.;)
>>
>
>With a massive explosion, to boot.
>
more likely: a massive explosion leaving behind a pair of smoking boots...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 09:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 08:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAGEIOCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3CBEE39B.6060103@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Bruce and Doug complain about their lack of superpowers
> <snip>
> 
> How do you think I feel?  I've straddled many a
> thermonuclear warhead, in the forlorn hopes that
> something would happen (super mutant children, for
> one).
> 
> Nothing!

Well did you wave your hat around and yell 'Yeee Haaa!' ???



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 09:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 18 08:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418055518.00a9a050@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 06:43:42AM -0400
References: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020418055518.00a9a050@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020418091957.A21336@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 06:43:42AM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> I think the Dodge City reference is usually more apt than the Heinlein 
> reference.  In other words, I'm thinking that territories of the United 
> States before they became states, during the 1800s, are very instructive 
> about the behavior of people when there's no law present.

Not just that, but large numbers of young men and very few women.  In
fact, ISTR a Scientific American article some years back examining
just that subject.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I don't want to achieve immortality through my work.  I want to achieve
it by not dying.                                          --Woody Allen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 09:55:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 08:55:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020417200008.009f3500@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418084245.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>

At 08:07 PM 4/17/02 -0600, you wrote:

>         Didn't you get the Control Penguins Power?  I thought you had, or 
> maybe it was the Penguin Projection Power .  No, wait, isn't that the 
> Bits project, Penguin Projection?  Geez, now I'm really confused. :)

Maybe I do cloud the minds of mortal men..

>         By the way, I just got my copy of ACQ.  You have been added to 
> the list of games I will buy just because of the author's demonstrated 
> competance.

Wow. Thank you, and hope you enjoy shooting things with glee.  Just 
remember one rule. Never spend more than half you APP in your round, unless 
you are ambushing someone. Always leave enough to react to the other guy's 
move.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:17:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:17:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330106b8e3cd72c219@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019146600.6212.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:
> 
> Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that 
> gets powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an 
> "accident", so maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but 
> whether it was "accidental".  :-)

Nah, it can be 'test subject'.  Captain America, for example.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Charge accumulation
Message-ID: <200204181629.EMH01314@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I remember when doing sling loads with helicopters, that 
before you attach the sling, you have to ground the hovering 
helicopter.  If you don't, you can get a shock powerful 
enough to throw you to the ground.  It's an accumulation of 
static by the rotor blades moving through the air.  Rather 
like a Van de Graff device.  You can also see the rotor tips 
glowing from this charge at night, especially using night 
vision.

Well, in Traveller, we're in a metal ship. We are constantly 
being bombarded by ions flowing from the nearby star.  Does 
our ship accumulate any charge?  If you park two ships near 
each other, is there a charge differential?  Is it 
significant?  If I touched both of the ships at the same 
time, would the charge difference want to flow through me?

Do engines such as HEPLAR exacerbate this charge difference 
by pushing charged material away from the ship?

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEHICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>
>
>Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to
>enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?

If the Imperium allows its members to go to war with one another, it
certainly does not require them to enforce each others' judgments.

Whether a world will enforce a judgment rendered on another world depends on
various factors:  does a treaty between the worlds govern the issue? if not,
do standards of comity apply? what is the current political situation
between the worlds?  There is plenty of work for lawyers in a system as
complex as the Imperium.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:42:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:42:49 2002
Subject: ret: [TML] New Filk
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHJCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I put this up on my Live Journal, but it didn't get much response there, so
>I'd thought I'd post it here.
>
>Flaming Eye

Common brigands seek interstellar support by recasting themselves as racial
freedom fighters -- I like it!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204181647.EMH04030@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson asks
>
>Well did you wave your hat around and yell 'Yeee Haaa!' ???
>
Indeed.

There are many opportunities to relive moments from various 
movies when you are in a nuclear missile unit.

One interesting thing:  I ended up writing a bit of software 
to keep track of the status of the battalion's missiles 
(which ones were away, counting, etc.).  The various platoons 
would report their status via the program over radio modem 
rather than by voice.  In the requirements, they wanted to 
know time of flight, but didn't care about time of impact.

I put it in anyway.  During one exercise, the officers were 
crowded around in the BCC, drinking coffee after the count, 
and I interrupted the festivities by announcing, "<name of 
city>, impact in 5.. 4... 3... 2.."  Everyone was very upset, 
as they didn't even want to think about what happens after 
they succeed in launching.

Never, ever sign someone up as an infantryman, and then tell 
him halfway through his term that "because you were a 
programmer in civilian life, we're going to make you one 
here, because we're short programmers.  We don't know who 
assigned you here, but we've no use for you otherwise.".

The consolation prize was that when not writing programs, I 
had the keys to the arms room.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Charge accumulation
In-Reply-To: <200204181629.EMH01314@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019148621.4086.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> Well, in Traveller, we're in a metal ship. We are constantly 
> being bombarded by ions flowing from the nearby star.  Does 
> our ship accumulate any charge?

Probably.

> If you park two ships near each other, is there a charge differential?
> Is it significant?  If I touched both of the ships at the same 
> time, would the charge difference want to flow through me?

Once grounded, any charge should dissipate fairly rapidly.
> 
> Do engines such as HEPLAR exacerbate this charge difference 
> by pushing charged material away from the ship?

No, it seems to eject plasma, with a probable net charge of zero.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204180015090.24858-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020417010106.E5149279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418125300.0228bff0@mail.qrc.com>

At 06:28 PM 4/17/2002, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>Do you mean 9,000 systems rather than the 10,000 there's supposed to be?
>IIRC the figures are 11,000 worlds in 10,000 systems

Back in the day, my analysis of the old sector data files found about 
10,500 worlds coded Imperial (or for imperial cultural regions), so that's 
what my Imperial GNP figure was based on.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 10:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Charge accumulation
In-Reply-To: <200204181629.EMH01314@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418095458.009eb9c0@mindspring.com>

At 12:29 PM 4/18/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I remember when doing sling loads with helicopters, that
>before you attach the sling, you have to ground the hovering
>helicopter.  If you don't, you can get a shock powerful
>enough to throw you to the ground.  It's an accumulation of
>static by the rotor blades moving through the air.  Rather
>like a Van de Graff device.  You can also see the rotor tips
>glowing from this charge at night, especially using night
>vision.

I learned that you had better check this for yourself rather than trust the 
new guy to actually have done this.  If I had hair, it would have been 
standing on end.  As it was, I had a nasty burn on my foot where the charge 
exited my body and an irregular heartbeat for several hours, enough to get 
me a free helicopter ride out of East Rain.

>Well, in Traveller, we're in a metal ship. We are constantly
>being bombarded by ions flowing from the nearby star.  Does
>our ship accumulate any charge?  If you park two ships near
>each other, is there a charge differential?  Is it
>significant?  If I touched both of the ships at the same
>time, would the charge difference want to flow through me?

SOM had ships with probes to allow discharge of accumulated charges, and to 
attract lightning bolts during wilderness refueling.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 11:05:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 10:05:17 2002
Subject: ret: [TML] New Filk
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHJCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418095901.009f31b0@mindspring.com>

At 09:35 AM 4/18/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> >
> >I put this up on my Live Journal, but it didn't get much response there, so
> >I'd thought I'd post it here.
> >
> >Flaming Eye
>
>Common brigands seek interstellar support by recasting themselves as racial
>freedom fighters -- I like it!

(Takes bow)

I got the inspiration while reading a book about Anne Bonney and Mary Read 
at the same time as a book about the mythical Werewolf units, SS troops 
that were supposed to start a guerilla war against the Allies. It struck me 
that some Vilani would refuse to surrender, and go pirate.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Thu Apr 18 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Some Info...
Message-ID: <OF98BD72DE.DB3A42D5-ON85256B9F.005EA550@pheaa.org>

do we have any Aeronautical Engineers on the list?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 12:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Thu Apr 18 11:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Some Info...
References: <OF98BD72DE.DB3A42D5-ON85256B9F.005EA550@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBF16E6.327D72C5@virgin.net>

William Lane wrote:

> do we have any Aeronautical Engineers on the list?
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Yes.  Me!

Si

And there is one other i believe.

:-)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 13:58:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 12:58:24 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020418082212.A31848@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20418.115507.2p7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?
> ...
>> You want it because you were making such a fuss about not being able
>> to use oxygen to convert methane to water and CO2 because you'd lose
>> the oxygen if you threw away the CO2.
>
> I did.  That doesn't mean I want to have a special LOX tank just in
> case I can find hydrogen but not water.  Most of the time I'm going to
> be buying water from the starport I'm docked at.  Most of the rest of
> the time, I'll be getting it from iceballs or seas.  That's much safer
> than gas giant skimming, if nothing else.  In a desperate situation, I
> *might* come across a system that has a gas giant but no water.  (The
> only plausible cases I can think of involve a gas giant inside the
> star's 100D limit) In that case I can still skim hydrogen gas and
> process it into the LHyd tank for a 1-parsec jump.  If there is any
> water in the GG atmosphere (likely if there is no water elsewhere), I
> can collect that too, diffuse though it may be.

At reasonable altitudes that water is going to be *really* scarce.

>> Only at the cost of *not* being able to refuel by scopping at a gas
>> giant. The atmosphere is 90%+ hydrogen.
>
> That just means you need to spend a bit longer scooping for the other
> stuff, a time which in itself is relatively minor compared to the time
> taken to get to and from a gas giant's 100D limit.  But why perform
> that dangerous maneuver at all when you've got almost always got
> lovely little microgravity water sources nowhere near so deep into a
> 100D limit?

Don't ask me. The rules seem to think it's a good idea. :-)

>> No, but you can't use the water for drinking,
>
> I can after I remove the ammonia.

>> and it needs special handling as ammonia water is corrosive.
>
> Scary.  You were talking about hundreds of tons of cryogenic LH2.
> Ever looked up the MSDS for that?

You are stuck handling the stuff anyway. The difference between
"minimal" tankage for it, and storing all your fuel that way isn't
going to change the hazards all that much.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 13:59:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 12:59:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEEDDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20418.120147.7F3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> >> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
>> >> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were 
>> "boiled" off.
>> >
>> > Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
>> > a nitpick.
>> 
>> I was going by the figures in the post I was responding to, which had a
>> higher density listed for Mercury.
>
> No, they didn't. I quoted 5.43 for Mercury, 5.52 for Earth.

The *original* post (not yours) quoted 5.56 for Mercury.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:00:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:00:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417165617.00a9ea90@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <20418.120339.3g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
>>that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
>>An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
>>perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
>>planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
>>come up eventually.
>
> There is a simple way to make planets more dense without changing the basic 
> composition. Bigger terrestrial worlds will have higher density because of 
> compression, which is far more effective for bigger bodies. Just adding 
> more rock will make the rock more dense.
>
> Earth has a compressed density higher than Mercury, but the uncompressed 
> density is considerably less. If a planet had the composition of Mercury 
> and the radius of Earth, which potentially could happen in an decently 
> iron-rich inner system with a major collision between two large rocky 
> worlds, that planet would have even greater density than Mercury has, say, 
> somewhere between 6 and 6.5. If a world with the composition of Earth is 
> 50% greater in radius it also would likely have higher density than Earth.

On the other hand, unless that collision happened *really* late in the
formation of the system, such a plent would tend to collect a lot more
gas and other stuff, and possibly wind up as a mini-GG.

Above a certain point, you get runaway accumulation of material, which
results in a gas giant of some sort.

*Where* that point is is subject to a lot of debate as we don't have
enough of a sample set to draw the line except *very* broadly. 

Also, that major collision is just as apt to scatter pieces of those
rocky world halfway across the system.

> On the other hand, if we think of an Earth-size world with the composition 
> of Mars, it would still have a density of say, 4.5 to 5. I'd argue a more 
> common problem in RPGs is that densities for Earth-like worlds are too low. 
> (Big world with low density to generate decent gravity-style.)

I haven't noticed that much.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:01:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:01:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20418.120911.8p9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hi
>
>> Also, the post I was replying to had the wrong density for Mercury, and
>> had it being denser than earth. I didn't check my references until
>> someone pointed out the error.
>
> You were replying to my post, and the densities were correct there.

No. The posts where I referred Mercury being denser were replies to a
post that had Mercury being denser than earth.

Check the levels of quotes. 

> BTW, as an aside, Red Dwarfs display similar relative elemental abundances
> to the Sun, but are many , many times denser.

Yes, but that's due to factors that don't apply to *planets* to any
great extent.

>> Work out the field strength at 100 diameters for size 1 thru 10 planets
>> assuming densities similar to that of earth or even Mars. The figures
>> are *way* off.
>
> Now try the same with tidal forces where the Mars size planet has a density
> equal to that of Mars, and the Earth sized planet has a density equal to
> that of the Earth. Do you get the same answer ? No.

Yes, but you apparently missed the part that shows that to make the
inverse-square forces come out anywhere near equal at 100 diameters,
the *smaller* world has to be the denser one. Having it be less dense
makes the mismatch *worse*.

This is exactly the *opposite* of your example.

With equal densities, the inverse-square forces at 100 diameters is
greater for larger worlds in direct proportion to the ratio of the
diameters of the worlds. 

So, assuming that the forces are in direct proportion to the mass of
the planet, to get them to match at 100 diameters, the density of the
larger world must be lower. 

Since this is the exact oposite of the situation for "typical" (in
Traveller) "worlds" (ie what gets generated as mainworlds and non-GG,
non-asteroid/cometary halo bodies) invoking density differences as
a reason to prefer inverse square forces (acceleration due to gravity,
"slope" of the gravity well, etc) over inverse cube forces (tidal
acceleration, curvature of space, etc) is silly.

> This only works if all
> of the 10 worlds in your calculation have the same density, which makes no
> sense.

But that's what the rules *explicitly* state in the first three books.

It's also a good way to make a first cut at analyzing the problem. Vary
*one* property and see what happens in your calculations. This lets you
eliminate the obviously wrong hypotheses (such as "jump limits are
based on inverse square forces"). Then you add in other variables (such
as density) and see what you get.

It's not that different than starting out by calculating Earth's
gravity as if the planet was a perfect sphere of uniform density. A
simplification to get first order results to compare to your data.

> Better to define jump limits in terms of field strengths, tidal force
> values, etc, than a distance/number of diameters. Sure the distance will
> vary, but the rule is then usable in all situations and is more internally
> consistent.

Which is what I advocate. So why are you objecting?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:02:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:02:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEICCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20418.122806.4f6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Pions can be created by the collision of matter and antimatter.
> The creation time can be tightly controlled.  So the start point
> for acceleration to relativistic speeds is therefore controlled.
>
> It requires far less handwaving than that required for plasma/fusion
> weapons.

Slight problem. You *can't* control the direction the created pions are
moving in. Nor the velocity. All you can say is that the vector sum of
the momenta of the pions will equal that of the original
proton/anti-proton pair. 

And neutral pions can't be affected by electric or magnetic fields,
making focusing them more than a little difficult.

Artifically generated gravity would solve this. Alas, it requires field
strengths that can't be generated in Traveller. Or if they *can*,
they'd make various other things possible that we don't see.

Then again, the same is true of the "grav-focusing" of lasers. 

> Neither of the latter can produce a "bolt" of plasma that
> can fly downrange, in air or in vacuum.  No guide beams, etc, 
> are going to help.

True enough. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:03:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:03:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Timothy Little says
>>They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half 
>>of the original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has 
>>elapsed, 1/4 decay in the next half-life period, 1/8 in the 
>>half-life after that, etc.
>
> then it's not possible to accelerate *any* mesons at all, 
> given their half-life.  Almost all of them would be gone 
> before they got to the end of the accelerator.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

> Please contact Los Alamos and inform them that the meson 
> accelerator that they have been using since 1968 is a fake.  
> It sends beams of mesons out without irradiating the 
> accelerator.  The only items that become "hot" are in the 
> target area.  Please explain how that is done.

Maybe you need to check out *how* the mesons are created. Usually, it's
done by bombarding a target with a more stable particle (such as
protons or heavy ions) which gives a shower of mesons that are already
moving at relativistic velocities. Then those are fed into a
second-stage accelerator which "loses" non-mesons as the accelerating
fields are varying at the wrong rate for particles with a different
charge to mass ratio.

Or they may use other techniques.

Thing is, what we've been saying about half-lives *is* correct. The
existence of the accelerator doesn't change that. It merely means that
some of *your* assumptions about how it operates are incorrect.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204182026.EMP00817@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

It would seem that the effects of the LAMPF facility's beam 
is lethal enough at 800 MeV, and they plan to raise it to 
80GeV.  

Even without the magical meson effects, the mesons they 
accelerate seem to be able to do enough damage as it is.  
They also seem to be able to accelerate protons, and produce 
neutron beams.  A neutron beam, to me, would seem ideal.  You 
would permanently irradiate the target, etc.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204182026.EMP00817@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019163077.9084.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> It would seem that the effects of the LAMPF facility's beam 
> is lethal enough at 800 MeV, and they plan to raise it to 
> 80GeV. 

Shrug.  Lethal for what?  Large quantities of radiation are bad for things. 
> 
> Even without the magical meson effects, the mesons they 
> accelerate seem to be able to do enough damage as it is. 

Sure, but we call this a 'Particle Accelerator'.  A meson beam has fairly
typical PAW effects.
 
> They also seem to be able to accelerate protons, and produce 
> neutron beams.  A neutron beam, to me, would seem ideal.  You 
> would permanently irradiate the target, etc.

Actually, at high energies just about any type of beam will induce radiation in
the target, since it will tend to blow nuclei apart.  In fact, by around 1 GEv
there's no particular difference in penetration between any particles that
interact via the strong force (including pions, neutrons, protons, and the
relevant antiparticles); in all cases penetration is comparable to cosmic rays,
with a typical penetration of 50-100 grams/cm^2 before the first collision
(this results in a cascade effect as new particles are created; the continued
penetration of the cascade depends on the energy level of the particles, but
500 grams/cm^2 is suitable for 90+% shielding against multi-GEv primary cosmic
rays).

Since meson guns are less affected by armor than conventional particle beams
(which are probably proton accelerators) there must be some special particle
involved.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204182056.EMP04739@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

80 GeV sounds like a weapon.

So you're saying at this power level, there's no difference 
in penetration for protons, neutrons, etc.?

Would a stream of positrons be any worse for the target?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 15:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 14:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEHLCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>
>
>Anthony Jackson said
>
> > >No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
[quotation deleted]
> > I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home
[deletion]
>Nah, if the defendant has a local office (sales outlet, whatever) you can
>sue the local unit.
>
>If the defendant is big and has a local offices sure.  You can play games
>with that though, like having every local office as a separate corporation.
>Because the LIC is granted by the Imperium, local courts probably can not
>break through the corporate veil.

Whatever the answer, it's clear that the Far Future will be a paradise for
lawyers.  Cha-ching!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 15:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 14:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204182056.EMP04739@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019164377.5758.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 80 GeV sounds like a weapon.

Depends how many particles you have.  80 GEv is a respectable weapon if you
have 10^15 particles or so (total energy ~13 MJ)
> 
> So you're saying at this power level, there's no difference 
> in penetration for protons, neutrons, etc.?

Pretty much.
> 
> Would a stream of positrons be any worse for the target?

Lower penetration, actually.  Best choice for penetration would be muons (for a
neutral beam, perhaps muonium, which is an 'atom' formed by an electron and an
anti-muon, or a positron and a muon)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 15:53:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr 18 14:53:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019146600.6212.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1019146600.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8e4f059a959@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:16 AM -0700 4/18/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>>
>>  Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that
>>  gets powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an
>>  "accident", so maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but
>>  whether it was "accidental".  :-)
>
>Nah, it can be 'test subject'.  Captain America, for example.

OK, so maybe you get super powers if you are exposed to "accidental" 
or "untested" levels.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 17:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 16:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
Message-ID: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>

Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable whatever it is that 
makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML coding? I tried a quoted message and it 
ended up an unholy mess.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 17:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 16:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
Message-ID: <621638DD.3A102E03.02280B06@aol.com>

GDWGAMES@aol.com writes:
> Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable 
> whatever it is that makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML 
> coding? I tried a quoted message and it ended up an unholy 
> mess.

I don't know if you *can* turn off the HTML coding. Gotta
be able to use those cutesy little smileys and special fonts,
after all.

Meanwhile, since at least 6.0 the standard Internet-style
quoting (with the '>' marks) no longer works. I now copy
the text I want to quote to the clipboard, then hand-edit
the '>' marks into the quoted block. Annoying, but the
result is at least clean and readable to multiple email
clients.

---
Jon



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20418.120911.8p9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEGHDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi

> Yes, but that's due to factors that don't apply to *planets* to any
> great extent.

True, but it was an example of relative abundance being irrelevant to
density, and as such it still stands.

> Yes, but you apparently missed the part that shows that to make the
> inverse-square forces come out anywhere near equal at 100 diameters,
> the *smaller* world has to be the denser one. Having it be less dense
> makes the mismatch *worse*.

I'm not trying to make anything work at 100 diameters. I'm pointing out the
flaw in your insistence of using 100 diameters. Also, my point was that the
densities would be different, so the tidal force argument doesn't work
either. 100D is an arbitrary rule, period. There is no magic formula unless
you cook the books.

> But that's what the rules *explicitly* state in the first three books.

Lots of stuff in the three LBBs has been superceded. Do you really still
generate worlds with just the basic rules ? Or do you use the World
Builder's Handbook, or Book 6, or First In ? If you do, you'll find that
density is not uniform.

> Which is what I advocate. So why are you objecting?

My original post in this thread was to do with the maximum mass for a
starship before its own gravitational field caused a misjump, a logical
extension of the existing canon background. I seem to remember you corrected
me and told me that tidal forces must be the reason for the 100 diameter
rule, which then reduced the maximum mass and/or density of a starship
before a misjump occurred to smaller than a Type S Scout. I'd disagree with
the latter consequence as it is inconsistent with the background.

Anyhow, we're arguing over nothing. Let's call it a day. IYTU, do as you
will shall be the whole of the law.

Regards

Andy Brick










---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 17/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20418.143129.3R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> My courts apply the same burden of proof in both civil and criminal
> cases, in my case "on the balance of probabilities" rather than
> "beyond reasonable doubt". Juries are not a recognised concept and
> instead panels of nobles ranging from one to the entire moot,
> depending on the case, make decisions after hearing argument. It does
> not take a genius to work out that the system is highly open to abuse.

Problem is, "beyond reasonable doubt" and "jury of your peers" *both*
came about because of abuses.

Jury of peers dates back to the Magna Carta and was put there by
*nobles who were upset about abuses by the king. And note that "jury of
your peers" basicly means nobles would get tried by nobles.... <eg>
I can't see a stable Imperium *not* having something like that. At
least at some levels. 

And if you define "peers" properly, it works with both "government of
men, not laws" and nobles having "extra" priveleges.

the beyond reasonable doubt bit is also apt to develop if only because
convicting innocent people tends to get their friends and relatives
upset with the government. 

And if someone is a vassal of a noble, the noble is going to insist on
stronger evidence as well.

On the other hand, we have (at least) two different system to draw
from. In the "French" system, the "proving" of guilt is relegated to
the "police" side of things. It's (supposed to be) harder to file
charges without a lot of proof. But once filed, you have to prove
yourself innocent.

The "English" system has the filing of charges be much simpler, but
then at trial (supposedly) they have to prove you guilty. 

I suspect that there are other systems to be found in history. 

Local governments should be pretty free to have laws that don't
conflict with Imperial interests. And to be as "just" or "unjust" as
they care to be, as long as it's (theoretically) possible for people to
leave.

Commercial laws may actually be more uniform, simply because the
Imperium is an empire based on "free" trade. Which means it pretty much
requires the laws covering contracts and the like to be uniform. 

What sort of contracts are legal may vary from world to world. But the
rules on drawing them up, enforcing them, and assigning liability for
failures will be fairly standard.

The *penalties* on the other hand... <eg>

So while the decision as to the validity of a contract and whether or
not one party has failed in carrying out there part might be much the
same on the homeworld of each party, the legality of the good or
service contracted for may vary greatly. As may the consequences of
failure to carry out the contract.

On world A, defaulting may merely involve either "best effort" to
correct the failure with financial liability up to the value of the
good/service or the bankruptcy limit (whichever is smaller), on world B
defaulting may result in becoming an indentured servant of the other
party until you can make good the loss. and on world C the damaged
party may be able to opt to have you tortured or even put to death,
with a scale set up based on the magnitude of the loss. 

So which world's law governs could be *really* important. And the PCs
who don't check into the details could really regret it. <g>

> There is no real distinction between civil and criminal law at the Imperial 
> level. Instead all cases are treated in the same way and dealt with through 
> the same channels. The main difference is that in some cases precedent holds 
> that the court should appoint Imperial investigators to gather evidence. In 
> other cases the burden of investigation lies entirely with the litigant. 

Aside from Imperial crimes, most "Imperial" level litigation will be
civil anyway. Salvage cases, contracts that get appealed (not many
will, unless the situation is either complicated or the parties to the
contract specified that Imperial courts would be used to resolve
problems), etc.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:25:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:25:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F18T2Y89RdrUnR65Cbk00002a25@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20418.145258.6Y3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
>>Sam D writes:
>> > Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to
>> > enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign 
>>judgments?
>>
>>No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
>>difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in 
>>state
>>courts work.
>
> I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home turf, 
> because that is the only place you can collect.  That should discourage 
> litigation, and make a lot of lawyers rich with asset protection seminars.  
> Maybe some worlds would become big Switzerlands where the wealthy hide their 
> dough.
>
> So I guess you would sue free traders where there ship is registered, 
> because that is where title would be?  Then how do you actually get 
> possession if other worlds are free to ignore the judgments of other worlds?

That's *why* the Imperium pretty much *has* to enforce some sort of
rules about contract laws when more than one world/government is
involved. Otherwise trade becomes much harder to carry on. And that's
not good for the Imperium.

Civil cases that don't affect interworld trade and criminal cases that
don't violate the few Imperial "criminal" laws will only get dealt with
if some noble with jurisdiction (ie a noble from an involved planet, a
susector level noble from the subsector the dispute is in, etc) decides
to get involved.

So, if you can get a noble from your planet involved, you may get some
action. But only if he can get the noble in charge of the other planet
interested in discussing it with him.

Better is if the worlds are in the same sub-sector and you can
get a subsector-level noble involved as he has authority over both
worlds. If they are in different subsectors, but the same sector, then
you need to get a sector level noble interested. 

If they are in different sectors but the same domain, then you may need
the Archduke to get involved. And if they are in different domains,
you'll have to appeal to the Emperor. 

And if you are dealing between the Imperium and some other interstellar
polity, it could get *really* ugly.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:25:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:25:41 2002
Subject: [TML] The L-E Digest?
In-Reply-To: <F82qi8VjUwZcSlVviFl0000bd6b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20418.163302.7i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In mail, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) asked:
>
>>Nah, if everyone who goofed did that who'd be posting? :-)
>
> <tongue-in-cheek>
> Um, just you?
> </tongue-in-cheek>

Excuse me? I'm far from infallible. As should be obvious from a few
recent posts.... :-(

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <007901c1e739$fb4c0560$9bb18b90@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm
> going to sue somebody.

It could be worse.  Have you seen the (very fine) movie 'Mystery Men'?  You
could have become The Spleen.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBF6B82.9FD041AE@mailbag.com>

> From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
>
> Heinlein is often invoked in the science fiction world as an example of
> libertarian principles at work.  I don't know how many have read his story
> 'Coventry', which was set inside a huge area cordoned off by the U.S. and
> completely without laws.  Citizens of the U.S. who broke the law were
> banished to Coventry to live among the other people who felt they didn't
> need the law.  Contrary to the expectations of the rugged individualist who
> starts the story about to enter Coventry, the people inside Coventry
> evolved their own law, but one that was imposed by the biggest sharks in
> the pool and not so kind and gentle as the law they had just left
> behind.  This was Heinlein's story that most directly addressed the issue,
> and with writer as judge of the conflict between different poliltical
> systems, he clearly found in favor of the democratic one and against the
> libertarian one.

Thank you for remembering this. I knew there was a quite well written
refutation in his work but I had forgotten the name. 

As a fairly hard lefty (hey I am a member of the DSA.
http://www.dsausa.org if you don't know them. Keep in mind that I keep
that link  in my religion folder... ;') I had a difficult time
understanding some of his works when I was a teen. The way "Coventry" is
written makes it very clear that a democracy that passes things against
his ideals is a better place to him than a tyrany that is exactly in
line with his thought. It's also useful to understand that one can
respect while disagreeing. 

 I've learned alot from his books - and even more after I did 16 years
in the US Army/National Guard/Army Reserve. OTOH, it's fun sometimes to
be the token lefty... 

William
-- 
You better watch out    What you wish for;
It better be worth it   So much to die for.
                                Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 18 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20418.143129.3R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>; from shadow@krypton.rain.com on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 02:31:29PM -0800
References: <cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84@aol.com> <20418.143129.3R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020418190201.A22643@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 02:31:29PM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> Jury of peers dates back to the Magna Carta and was put there by
> nobles who were upset about abuses by the king.  And note that "jury
> of your peers" basicly means nobles would get tried by nobles....

And commoners by commoners.  I believe it was Blackstone who commented
that all this ties into the presumption of innocence, fair trial,
burden of proof on the prosecution complex.  The idea being that
commoners are more likely to favour their own, and nobility their own,
and thus that things are slanted in favour of the defendant.  Which is
a Good Thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron--more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to mankind.
                              --Mirelle Stein, The Productive Class

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 19:04:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 18 18:04:37 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>; from GDWGAMES@aol.com on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 07:30:44PM -0400
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020418190346.B22643@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 07:30:44PM -0400, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>
> Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable whatever it
> is that makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML coding? I tried a
> quoted message and it ended up an unholy mess.

Does AOL offer SMTP and (POP3 or IMAP) to its subscribers?  If so, you
can use any mail client you wish.  I understand that Mozilla's is very
good, for those who like GUI clients.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A PC without windows is like a chocolate cake without mustard.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Thu Apr 18 18:08:02 2002
Subject: Officer Candidates (was Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets)
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBF6DB5.E1C86E36@mailbag.com>

> From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
>   I'm almost of the opinion that
> > officers
> > > should be enlisted first

I've long felt that not only should prior service be required, but that
promotion to E-5 be required before acceptance into any officer training
program. This, essentially, requires that the gentle serves at least one
term as a grunt first. I've seen some who took the OCS test in the
middle of basic who weren't any better than the ROTC things that we
occasionally got stuck with. OTOH, pointers were far worse...  
 
As a soldier and as a sergeant, I always respected the mavericks far
more - if they gave you a shit detail they had probably shoveled the
same shit at some point. Unlike any of the rest.

William
-- 
You better watch out    What you wish for;
It better be worth it   So much to die for.
                                Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:08:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:08:11 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20418.214954.3L6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable whatever it
> is that makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML coding? I tried a
> quoted message and it ended up an unholy mess.

	http://expita.com/nomime.html


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:12:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:12:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a@aol.com>

--part1_21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always had trouble with 
the idea of a line of seperately-designed launchers being required to fire 
"sand", so I decided to just do away with them IMTU; allowing the typical 
missile launcher to fire several different types of munitions; with "sand" 
being used in its usual role as a screen to counter incoming missiles or 
energy beam fire, as well as it acting as a fairly effective antipersonnel 
weapon (Striker, bk2).
  -Ken Murphy-
  
   
   
   

--part1_21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always had trouble with the idea of a line of seperately-designed launchers being required to fire "sand", so I decided to just do away with them IMTU; allowing the typical missile launcher to fire several different types of munitions; with "sand" being used in its usual role as a screen to counter incoming missiles or energy beam fire, as well as it acting as a fairly effective antipersonnel weapon (Striker, bk2).
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR> &nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:17:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:17:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
Message-ID: <200204190140.EMZ01428@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was just looking at something called Electric Tokamak, and 
I noticed that in one of the pictures, they were using 
hydrogen plasma, and in a few others, helium plasma.  I 
thought that this was strange, since no machine built yet 
achieves a high beta (high enough to break even, that is).

In their "introduction" section, they talk about the machine 
being able to use "low-neutron yield fusion fuels" in the 
future with this design.

It makes me think that their intent in the end is to use 
helium rather than hydrogen.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:19:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:19:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Could some kind soul please contact me off-List with some links to 
sites that list various combat formation TO&Es?  I've tried Google until my 
eyes crossed with no avail.  As you all well know, I'm not the sharpest tool 
in the shed and my surfing abilities suffer as a consequence.
     The recent TML thread discussing unit TO&Es and the well deserved 
praise for Mr. Berry's accomplishments regarding them in GT:GF gave me cause 
to flush all the unit descriptions in my "Dirty Little War" project.
     Specifically, I'm interested in TO&Es from the turn of the last 
century, say the 1905/Russo-Japanese War to 1918/Great War range.  This 
implies large squad automatic weapons, clunky AFVs, and early combat 
aircraft.
     Thank you.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:21:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:21:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <007901c1e739$fb4c0560$9bb18b90@computer>
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418190001.009e85e0@mindspring.com>

At 10:34 AM 4/19/02 +1000, you wrote:
> > From: Douglas Berry
> > That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm
> > going to sue somebody.
>
>It could be worse.  Have you seen the (very fine) movie 'Mystery Men'?  You
>could have become The Spleen.

No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!

"Ah, the Disco Room!"


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:24:05 2002
Subject: Officer Candidates (was Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets)
In-Reply-To: <3CBF6DB5.E1C86E36@mailbag.com>
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418221746.020382a8@192.168.0.1>

At 08:07 PM 4/18/2002 -0500, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:
> > From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
> >   I'm almost of the opinion that
> > > officers
> > > > should be enlisted first
>I've long felt that not only should prior service be required, but that
>promotion to E-5 be required before acceptance into any officer training
>program. This, essentially, requires that the gentle serves at least one
>term as a grunt first. I've seen some who took the OCS test in the
>middle of basic who weren't any better than the ROTC things that we
>occasionally got stuck with. OTOH, pointers were far worse...
>As a soldier and as a sergeant, I always respected the mavericks far
>more - if they gave you a shit detail they had probably shoveled the
>same shit at some point. Unlike any of the rest.

Back when I was a young lad, dear old dad wanted my brother and I to go to 
West Point.

After his tour in scenic Southeast Asia, the tune changed to, "You boys 
wouldn't embarrass your father by going to a military academy."


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!
Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>

On Thursday 18 April 2002 21:37, you wrote:

> Maybe you need to check out *how* the mesons are created. Usually, it's
> done by bombarding a target with a more stable particle 

Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel" 
problems: Nuclear Damping Technology. Obviously this is used inside the 
barrel (And maybe for some distance outside it... remember, Nuclear Dampers 
work at some range... on the order of 30,000 KM. Meson Screens are obviously 
a special type of Nuclear Damper, specifically tuned to decay mesons. If you 
can do that, you can surely do the opposite: Prevent them from Decaying, or 
massively reduce their decay rate) in order to prevent your mesons from 
decaying too early. Mesons are obviously generated, en-masse, by nuclear 
damper style technology also, set up for very short range (i.e. meters, or 
centimeters) but extremely powerful and finely controlled damper-style 
fields. 

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
In-Reply-To: <200204190140.EMZ01428@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204190140.EMZ01428@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020419184155.A3066@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> It makes me think that their intent in the end is to use helium
> rather than hydrogen.

I would suspect that they intend to study any number of modes of
operation very thoroughly.  To me they seemed to be concentrating more
on pure hydrogen plasmas at the moment, but that would be because this
is meant to be a controlled experiment of their theoretical method,
not a commercial fusion operation.

I did notice a few hydrogen/helium runs, though.  We'll have to see
what the future holds when they see how well this mode of operation
conforms to theory.  :)


With these advances, it looks like large-scale commercial fusion power
is only about twenty years away!
;^>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>

Brian Caball wrote:
> Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel" 
> problems: Nuclear Damping Technology.

The only problem is, why doesn't a meson gun then function
automatically as a perfect meson screen?  If you can prevent your
mesons decaying over distances of up to millions of kilometres, why
can't you ensure that the other guy's mesons don't decay within a
range of twenty metres?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
Message-ID: <200204190855.BAA14300@ping.iii.com>

Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> writes:

>On Thursday 18 April 2002 21:37, you wrote:
>
>> Maybe you need to check out *how* the mesons are created. Usually, it's
>> done by bombarding a target with a more stable particle 
>
>Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel" 
>problems: Nuclear Damping Technology. Obviously this is used inside the 
>barrel (And maybe for some distance outside it... remember, Nuclear Dampers 
>work at some range... on the order of 30,000 KM. Meson Screens are obviously 
>a special type of Nuclear Damper, specifically tuned to decay mesons. If you 
>can do that, you can surely do the opposite: Prevent them from Decaying, or 
>massively reduce their decay rate) in order to prevent your mesons from 
>decaying too early. Mesons are obviously generated, en-masse, by nuclear 
>damper style technology also, set up for very short range (i.e. meters, or 
>centimeters) but extremely powerful and finely controlled damper-style 
>fields. 

True, nuclear dampers do imply a lot of bizarre manipulations of decay
rates that it's very difficult to explain in a way that wouldn't prove
instantly lethal to all life.  Considering that pions are the primary
exchange particle of the strong force, nuclear dampers would be expected
to influence them.

Doesn't help much with the problem of 'mesons aren't notably penetrating
particles'.  Of course, explaining how nuclear dampers don't change the
laws of physics in ways that are instantly fatal to life is also a trick.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
Message-ID: <200204190857.BAA28058@ping.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>I was just looking at something called Electric Tokamak, and 
>I noticed that in one of the pictures, they were using 
>hydrogen plasma, and in a few others, helium plasma.  I 
>thought that this was strange, since no machine built yet 
>achieves a high beta (high enough to break even, that is).
>
>In their "introduction" section, they talk about the machine 
>being able to use "low-neutron yield fusion fuels" in the 
>future with this design.
>
>It makes me think that their intent in the end is to use 
>helium rather than hydrogen.

It probably is.  D-He3 is the easiest of the low-neutron fusion fuels
to ignite.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 03:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Apr 19 02:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>

On Friday 19 April 2002 09:45, you wrote:
> Brian Caball wrote:
> > Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the
> > barrel" problems: Nuclear Damping Technology.
>
> The only problem is, why doesn't a meson gun then function
> automatically as a perfect meson screen?  If you can prevent your
> mesons decaying over distances of up to millions of kilometres, why
> can't you ensure that the other guy's mesons don't decay within a
> range of twenty metres?

It's probably set to a long thin beam... hence the range. the manufacturers 
probably also supply the shorter range, general purpose, multidirectional 
meson screens. 

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 03:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 02:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020419190352.C3066@freeman.little-possums.net>

>  If you can prevent your mesons decaying over distances of up to
> millions of kilometres, why can't you ensure that the other guy's
> mesons don't decay within a range of twenty metres?

I just thought of an even more extreme example: meson communicators
function across *billions* of kilometres.  They should make you
completely immune to meson weapons if they can prevent decay at that
range.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 03:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 02:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net> <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020419192132.A3299@freeman.little-possums.net>

Brian Caball wrote:
> It's probably set to a long thin beam... hence the range. the
> manufacturers probably also supply the shorter range, general
> purpose, multidirectional meson screens.

But then why are meson screens so expensive and not perfectly
effective?  They don't need anywhere near as much coverage as a
multi-million kilometre beam, even if it is thin.  Covering a mere
starship should be utterly trivial by comparison.

On the other side of the issue, altering the decay properties of
mesons means that you don't actually need to fire anything at the
target: mesons are fundamental to the processes that hold nuclei
together.  Tamper with them, and every nucleus bigger than hydrogen
alters its energy to an extent that makes fusion look "slightly warm".

Just wave your "meson damper" over the target, then shut down your
sensors and get behind a sandcaster cloud before the flash reaches
you.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 05:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 04:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
Message-ID: <200204191113.ENR03407@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>
>With these advances, it looks like large-scale commercial 
>fusion power is only about twenty years away!
>;^>
>

That's what they said back in the 1970s
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 05:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 04:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204191118.ENS00157@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>
>No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!
>
>"Ah, the Disco Room!"
>

I would be happy to be Invisible Boy
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 05:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 19 04:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Andy Akins Still Around?
Message-ID: <3CC003DA.D3F8EBBE@earthlink.net>

Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Akins?

I'm trying to contact him re: his T4 ship design spreadsheet
but the andyakins@earthlink.net address from his website
keeps bouncing email.

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 6:46, Daniel Tackett wrote:

>   I'm almost of the opinion that
> > officers 
> > > should be enlisted first
> Amen to that. Was it ever like that though?

Not that I know of.

 Does anybody know when it stopped if it was? And Why?

The modern system has its origins in Medieval Europe, with knights 
evolving into the aristocratic officer class, etc.

> I think it instills elitism in the wrong kind of
> people and the wrong kind of people are less likely to
> be patient enough for a couple of years as a grunt.

That's also my feeling.

> Not to say that we don't have some fine officers now,
> but they still need to know what it's like to be
> treated like a pawn in a chess game. I doubt this
> ideology would work well for pilots though.

Pilots are made into officers for reasons of tradition and there's no 
real reason for them to be, no matter what they might say on this.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <B8E429CE.4E9EA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC0B25F.15316.840B8C@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 7:44, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Just bear in mind that there is a reason for the distance between
> officers and enlisted (speaking as one who has been both).  As
> officers you will be required to give orders to your men that will
> result in their death or maiming.  You will know this before hand. 
> It requires a certain detachment (at least for non-sickos) to order
> men to their deaths. 

However also remember that a platoon sergeant (the position, not the 
rank) will also have to do this at some point, and he will always (in a 
western style army, anyway) have 'come up', and should be close to his 
men. Likewise a Section Commander/Squad Leader will be very close to 
his men (and probably was 'one of the men' only a year previous), and 
yet they have to order their squad into deadly situations all the time.
 
> I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that an officer should be
> required to be enlisted first.  It's hard to say.  I've seen both
> kinds of officers, some good and some bad.  I've seen people who came
> up through the ranks have a hard time maintaining 'distance' from
> their people. Also, the duties of the two groups are very different. 

However the split between 'admin' (NCOs) and 'command' (officers) 
starts at the squad leader - 2IC level, and they're both NCOs.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418084245.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20020417200008.009f3500@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <3CC0B2AB.3922.85344E@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 8:44, Douglas Berry wrote:

> Wow. Thank you, and hope you enjoy shooting things with glee.  Just
> remember one rule. Never spend more than half you APP in your round,
> unless you are ambushing someone. Always leave enough to react to
> the other guy's move. 

I thought the rule was "Always ensure you're outside the ambush, firing 
in."

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:25:02 2002
Subject: Officer Candidates (was Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets)
In-Reply-To: <3CBF6DB5.E1C86E36@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <3CC0B556.15473.8FA124@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 20:07, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:

> I've long felt that not only should prior service be required, but that
> promotion to E-5 be required before acceptance into any officer training
> program. This, essentially, requires that the gentle serves at least one
> term as a grunt first. I've seen some who took the OCS test in the
> middle of basic who weren't any better than the ROTC things that we
> occasionally got stuck with. OTOH, pointers were far worse...  

I don't think I'd go so far as to require getting to E-5. What makes a 
good NCO isn't always the same thing that makes a good officer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020419125210.3554.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I want my money (along with my spleen) back.


Chalk up another virtual Keyboard kill to Doug.  I,
like others, have learned not to drink at the
computer, at least for this list.  And, yes, I may be
a day behind, but I got yesterday's project finished
before quitting time.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 09:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419192132.A3299@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
 <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
 <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419111058.040af780@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:21 AM 4/19/2002, Timothy Little wrote:
>Brian Caball wrote:
> > It's probably set to a long thin beam... hence the range.
>
>But then why are meson screens so expensive and not perfectly effective?
>On the other side of the issue, altering the decay properties of mesons 
>means that you don't actually need to fire anything at the target [...] 
>Tamper with them, and every nucleus bigger than hydrogen alters its energy 
>to an extent that makes fusion look "slightly warm".

Here's a non-canon, but possibly workable suggestion for you: what if a 
"meson gun" is basically a "laser" for the whatever-it-is that makes meson 
screens (presumably some variant of damper technology) work.  In this case, 
it's tuned to affect mesons so that the field causes a release of energy 
and radiation as atoms in the target break down.

Let's further postulate the following, for no particularly good reason than 
they make the "meson gun" work similarly to the way it is described in the 
Traveller canon:

- The weapon beam is laser-like, so that it is reasonably small and can 
affect targets at a great distance, but must be focused or tuned for 
maximum effect at a specific range.  Lower power beams are much easier to 
focus and control than high-powered ones, so that meson communicators can 
have a greater range than meson weapons.

- For whatever reason, only a tiny fraction of the atoms in the focus point 
of the beam are affected enough so that they break down. The higher the 
power of the beam, the greater the percentage of atoms that break down and 
the larger the release of energy.

- The breakdown of atoms in the beam is significantly enhanced by supplying 
radiation to "kick off" a chain reaction.  Therefore, weapons-grade meson 
guns fire some type of particle beam at the target as well.

- Meson screens interfere with the ability of the meson gun beam to cause 
atoms to break down.  This is not an "all-or-nothing" proposition; the 
screen interferes with but does not block the weapon beam, protecting the 
ship to a greater or lesser degree.

The canon Traveller explanation of how a meson gun works can then be 
thought of as a simplified explanation (similar to what you would get if 
you asked a present-day layman for an explanation of the sun's energy 
source), or a deliberate obfuscation on the part of the high-tech 
polities.  The net result is the same: the "conventional wisdom" describes 
the net effect of a meson gun beam relatively accurately, but misrepresents 
the underlying physics.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 09:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Andy Akins Still Around?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C365E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Try andy@leonidae.org.  I was in touch with him in March at that address.
Jesse
 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Smart [mailto:jurrubin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 4:48 AM
To: TML List
Subject: [TML] Andy Akins Still Around?


Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Akins?

I'm trying to contact him re: his T4 ship design spreadsheet
but the andyakins@earthlink.net address from his website
keeps bouncing email.

David Smart
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 09:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <20020418190346.B22643@4dv.net>
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
 <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net>

>Does AOL offer SMTP and (POP3 or IMAP) to its subscribers?  If so, you
>can use any mail client you wish.  I understand that Mozilla's is very
>good, for those who like GUI clients.

Not last I heard.  There was an alpha test of that using employees only a 
couple or three years ago and it wandered into a swamp and never came 
out.  Which is just as well, from AOL's point of view, since it was _only_ 
being made compliant with Micro$oft Outlook and was just another way for 
them to hand the reins of software control over to Micro$oft.  (The 
explanation for this thinking is that most of the good leadership at AOL 
have long since retired after they got rich on stock options.)

Leonard Erickson already pointed to the best answer I am aware of for 
Loren's original question.  That Web site gives both the official and the 
"unofficial" answer but they are both the same thing.  The unofficial 
answer reads to me like it was posted by an AOL tech support rep on his own 
page so that he could point customers to it instead of trying to explain it 
over the phone.

I still maintain an AOL account and my wife exclusively uses AOL when not 
at work, but neither of us have upgraded to version 7.0.  (I used to QA the 
AOL client software and have what I consider good reasons for avoiding 
upgrading.  She just hasn't got around to it yet.)  I will go ahead and 
install 7.0 and fiddle around with it once I get my own computer's 
motherboard and CPU replaced.  I'd rather not install anything new on my 
wife's puter.

With luck, I will find something more useful than that ridiculous 
workaround that is the official method.  I will post results here.

It's no wonder I got a world-class set of ulcers when I was working 
there.  :::shaking head sadly:::

--Laning
"I coulda been _somebody_.  I coulda been a _contender_." -Laning speaking 
about AOL's potential to be much better than what it's turned into.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226E9@USCHM203>

>Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always had trouble with 
>the idea of a line of seperately-designed launchers being required to fire 
>"sand", so I decided to just do away with them IMTU; allowing the typical 
>missile launcher to fire several different types of munitions; with "sand" 
>being used in its usual role as a screen to counter incoming missiles or 
>energy beam fire, as well as it acting as a fairly effective antipersonnel 
>weapon (Striker, bk2).
> -Ken Murphy-

Makes sense to me. IMTU, most sandcasters on smaller ships aren't even
mounted in turrets. They are placed on or in the hull  in various locations
for full coverage, and work similar to the smoke launchers on the turrets of
tanks or chaff launchers on ships and aircraft. There is no need to aim
them, or have any fire-control system other than a manual or automated
activation system.


Brian L. Hurrel
ICS Analyst
EDS
(973) 682-5578


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [Website Review] Elv's Traveller Pages
References: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris> <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net> <02041910580708.03729@avlendris> <5.1.0.14.2.20020419111058.040af780@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <003801c1e7bf$66b51dc0$6e00a8c0@imogen>

The Website Review
------------------

A little later than expected this time, but here is ...

    Elv's Traveller Pages (John G Wood)
    http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller

Most of this site has red text on a black background (a homage to
the LBB covers).  Although this colour scheme can get  irritating
to read it is image-lite  ...  so  pages  are  fast  loading.  In
keeping with the LBB style there are links from  the  front  page
to:

- Page 0. An Introduction To My Traveller Universe
- Page 1. Characters and Combat
- Page 2. Starships
- Page 3. Worlds and Adventures
- Supp. Forms and Charts

The "Introduction" page states  that  it  is  for  material  that
doesn't fit elsewhere.  So far there  are  only  2  pieces,  both
about  psionics.   First  is  a  "right  of  reply"  letter   ...
complaining at the pro-psionic bias  of  a  recently  transmitted
program.  Second is a psionic institute checklist:  based  on  T4
(local world attitute, presence of a psionic institute, how  many
students, campuses, etc).

The "Characters and Combat" page is empty.

The "Starships" page contains GT translations of some Hiver ships
from Alien Module 7 (Explorer, Trader, Embassy Ship, and Research
Cruiser).  There's also a link to a 400dton GTL10 Lighter, and to
a landgrab page (Prilissa/Trin's Veil).

The "Worlds and Adventures" has links to write-ups of  Ochre  and
Cymbeline (both in the Solomani Rim), a link to a formal landgrab
of Prilissa (Spinward Marches), and links to two sector write-ups
(Windhorn  and  Usingou).  The  Ochre  and  Cymbeline   write-ups
include both text and stats, and could qualify as landgrabs.  The
Prilissa write-up *is* a landgrab (albeit as yet unfinished)  ...
there is a large amount of text  and  stats,  and  some  graphics
(world map and system chart).  The sector write-ups are  "initial
development" and has  data  in  Galactic  SEC  and  Galactic  SAR
formats, a list of subsector names, and a micro-sized sector map.

The "Forms and Charts" page has a CC2 file of "IS Form 21" (world
grid), and Gal2CC (a utility that converts sector  and  subsector
maps from Galactic to CC2).  There are also 3 Word documents  for
use with T4 (PE Forms, Shipcards, and a system worksheet) bundled
into a 26K zip.

In summary: T4, GT, and  generic  resources,  wrapped  up  in  CT
style.  The sector write-ups try to be true to the DGP  dot  maps
of those sectors (good!).  And there is  generally  good  support
for Galactic.  This site also reports that it was last updated on
15-Mar-2002 (good, an active site).

Improvements:  The layout implies that  more  content  is  coming
soon ... as it stands at the moment the level  of  content  would
support folding in the main section pages into  the  front  page.
More content is always good.  With the prominance of Galactic  in
this site I would have expected a link to Jim  Vassilakos's  site
(where Galactic can be found).  I look forward to the  completion
of the landgrab  and  more  info  on  the  Windhorn  and  Usingou
sectors.



Regards PLST



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Dan's used HG2 space craft lot #3
Message-ID: <3CC0463F.35BDBF90@mail.cswnet.com>

Buy now, pay later! We have the best used ships this side of Canopus!

Destiny Star class luxury liner
These ships are usually only seen in high pop core sector worlds.
Occasionally, 1 or 2 find their way to the frontier, usually under
charter by the Imperial Navy. On very rare occasions, the ships are
chartered to assist in colonizing a planet.

Destiny Star class luxury liner
ship names include Magic Destiny, Andromeda Princess, Grandeur of the
Stars, Sovereign of the stars, the Queen Hera, etc.
RQ-Y3313G5-093307-90000-0  Mcr798505.54 standard 1.5million dt
            Y   Y Y      TL=13 Crew=13235 Security Troops=1500
            Z   Z Z      Y=250  Z=500
Jump Fuel=450,000dt Plant Fuel=45,000dt EP=45000 Agility=1
Additional fuel=5000dt Fuel scoops and purification plant aboard
Auxiliary Bridge=1 Model7Fib=10 Code3 meson screens=1
Code3 nuclear dampers=10  10dt Sandcaster batteries=500
100dt repulsor bays=500  10dt Laser batteries=500
One 3250dt large craft bay [for visiting spacecraft]
One 51400dt small craft bay, carries:
2000 TL13 20dt QB lifeboats and 100 TL13 95dt RY Shuttlecraft
Crew=13235 [officers=2590 Ratings=10645] Security Troops=1500
Standard Cargo=100,000dt Passenger Cargo=50,000dt
Ships Stores=26,280dt Passengers=50,000 [1 each per 4dt stateroom]
Non-standard items from GT Starports:
10,000dt park habitat modules=10 10,000dt plaza habitat modules=12

Could qualify using Bk6 stats if you fudge the tech level:
Destiny Star DS00468-D NI Va 600Na 

TL13 RY Shuttlecraft
RY-02033A1-030000-20000-0 Mcr37.775 standard  95dt
            2     1           TL=13 Crew=5
            2     1
Fuel=5.7 EP=2.85 Agility=1 
Bridge with 3 additional crew couches [5 total]
Cargo=25 Passenger couches=55
Crew=1pilot, 1gunner, 1medic/steward, 2 stewards.

TL13 QB Lifeboat
QB-0202211-000000-00000-0 Mcr8.8 standard 20dt
no weapons                          TL=13 Crew=1
Fuel=1 EP=.4 Agility=2 Emergency low berths=8 Cargo=4


Assiniboia class gunned cruiser
The pride of the Regina Colonial Navy
CG-K4117D3-050000-60C07-0 Mcr10726.44 10000dt
            5     2 1 3   TL=10 Crew=121
            5     2 1 3   Marines=40
Fuel=1700dt EP=700 Agility=1 Fuel scoops and Purification plant aboard.
50dt missle bays=3  2dt Sandcaster batteries=5
5dt laser batteries=2  4500dt typeC particle accelerator
Carries two 40dt pinnaces with 2 beam lasers, 1 sandcaster, plus
20 emergency low berths Mcr24.25  Pinnaces are listed in Supplement 7,
page 46. They are TL9.
Crew=121[25 officers and 96 ratings] Marines=40[2 officers, 38 troops]
1 VIP passenger possible  Cargo=543dt
A related version, the Bourbon class gunned cruiser, uses a needle
configured hull instead of a box, costs Mcr11326.244


The reconfigured series: D609 Aconit of the French Navy

This is one of those adapted wet navy designs, using Ken Picks'
"Miscellaneous Note: Adapting "Wet-navy" Ships" from "Beyond Book 2:
Expanding the Basic Classic Traveller Starship Design System", available
at the Freelance Traveller website. I kept strictly to HG2 for the
design, so I fudged a little bit on the AAA guns.

D609 Aconit
DD-81146D2-040000-42002-0  Mcr745.366  830dt
            1     11  3    TL10  Crew=26
            1     11  3     Marines=8
Fuel=381.3 Ep=49.3 Agility=4 Cargo=16.9
Crew=1pilot, 1navigator, 8 engineers, 8 gunners, 1 comm specialist,
1 computer specialist, 1 medic, 1 admin orderly. Marines=8


Plop Historical designs: The Chameleon

The Chameleon
Originally from the Star Trek animated series episode "More Trouble with
Tribbles," The Chameleon is Cyrano Jones' ship. This attempted
Travellerization uses details from FASA's Star Trek RPG, which had full
details including a small deckplan. Note: Some fudging went into this
one. Also, design uses "Deck Cargo: Using External Pods For Increasing
Cargo Capacity,"  by Ken Pick, available at Freelance Traveller.

The Chameleon
with 50 dt cargo module.
MS-1123331-000000-00000-0 Mcr94.462 150dt
no weapons                          TL=13 Crew=1
Fuel=34.5dt Ep=4.5 Agile=3 Fuel scoops only; no fuel plant
Model 3 computer. Air/raft=1 Storage=3dt
double stateroom=1 "a masters cabin with lounge"
Carries one special custom 50dt streamlined cargo module [module
cargo=40dt] Cargo module by itself costs Mcr11. 
Note that a normal customized 50dt streamlined cargo module costs
Mcr5.5.

The Chameleon
without 50dt cargo module
MS-1134431-000000-00000-0 Mcr83.462 100dt
no weapons                          TL=13 Crew=1
Fuel=34.5dt Ep=4.5 Agile=3 Fuel scoops only; no fuel plant
Model 3 computer. Air/raft=1 Storage=3dt
double stateroom=1 "a masters cabin with lounge"

Notes on the special custom 50dt streamlined cargo module.
Quoting from "Again, Troublesome Tribbles" by FASA, ?1983
Cyrano has installed "added controls, which allow the cargo module to be
jettisoned in space and exploded by remote control. The walls of the
cargo module are lined with reflective materials which will act on
sensors in a manner similar to radar "chaff", masking Cyrano's escape,
at increased speed, in an emergency."

For HG2 purposes, a declaration to jettison the cargo module must be
made in the launch phase. This has the following effects:
In the range determination phase, the player with Chameleon may open 
range by one level. If previously at short range, he may go to long
range. If at long range, he may opt to dissengage. For combat purposes,
treat the "chaff" as a single Code9 sandcaster battery, available for
one turn only. O^

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
How mesons are created: The stork brings em.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:49:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:49:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 12:08:07AM +1200
References: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost> <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com> <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020419104758.A24689@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 12:08:07AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> The modern system has its origins in Medieval Europe, with knights 
> evolving into the aristocratic officer class, etc.

I believe that various socialists tried the `elect officer from the
ratings, by the ratings' method.  It didn't work very well.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Try travelling from state to state in America without a driver's license
and proof of insurance, to be yielded up to the first uniformed
road-thug who demands it.                       --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CBF6B82.9FD041AE@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:

> > From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
> >
> > Heinlein is often invoked in the science fiction world as an example of
> > libertarian principles at work.  I don't know how many have read his story
> > 'Coventry', which was set inside a huge area cordoned off by the U.S. and
> > completely without laws.  Citizens of the U.S. who broke the law were
> > banished to Coventry to live among the other people who felt they didn't
> > need the law.  Contrary to the expectations of the rugged individualist who
> > starts the story about to enter Coventry, the people inside Coventry
> > evolved their own law, but one that was imposed by the biggest sharks in
> > the pool and not so kind and gentle as the law they had just left
> > behind.  This was Heinlein's story that most directly addressed the issue,
> > and with writer as judge of the conflict between different poliltical
> > systems, he clearly found in favor of the democratic one and against the
> > libertarian one.
> 
> Thank you for remembering this. I knew there was a quite well written
> refutation in his work but I had forgotten the name. 

That's NOT a refutation of libertarianism, it's a refutation of anarchy.
True anarchy doesn't exist; there will always be some sort of social
order, even if it's based in "the biggest bully wins".

Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.  

> As a fairly hard lefty (hey I am a member of the DSA.
> http://www.dsausa.org if you don't know them. Keep in mind that I keep
> that link  in my religion folder... ;') I had a difficult time
> understanding some of his works when I was a teen. The way "Coventry" is
> written makes it very clear that a democracy that passes things against
> his ideals is a better place to him than a tyrany that is exactly in
> line with his thought. It's also useful to understand that one can
> respect while disagreeing. 

Yes, but libertarianism is NOT tyranny or anarchy, and the society in
"Coventry" is NOT libertarian.  A libertarian social contract supports the
right to life (for persons who have been born), liberty, property,
privacy, and free association.

I would expect someone from a group as maligned as the DSA to be able to
understand the difference.

And it depends, doesn't it?  If a "democracy" decides to make just being
who you are illegal because their governing body is so constructed as to
think the right of the majority to decide what's legal should extend into
your bedroom, then you are in a tyranny, aren't you?  If a "democracy"
decides to attach more than half of your property suddenly due to a change
in the public opinion made manifest in law, then you are in a tyranny,
aren't you?

Kiri, lifelong RAH fan and mostly libertarian...

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019237432.7515.ajackson@ping>

Kiri Aradia Morgan writes:
> 
> That's NOT a refutation of libertarianism, it's a refutation of anarchy.

Well, a lot of the libertarians seem to be anarchists in disguise, though it's
true that they're not technically the same thing.
> 
> Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
> exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
> should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
> do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.

Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith.  Or the Libertarian
party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:10:22AM -0700
References: <3CBF6B82.9FD041AE@mailbag.com> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020419113915.A24789@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:10:22AM -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>
> A libertarian social contract supports the right to life (for
> persons who have been born), liberty, property, privacy, and free
> association.

I'd like to point out--solely to avoid misunderstanding--that there is
debate within libertarian circles regarding the personhood of those
yet unborn, and that this naturally colours perception of the rights
appertaining thereto.  Not going to mention my own thoughts, as they
have no business being here.

Otherwise I quite agree with Kiri's post.  Although I've not read the
story in question, it very much sounded not like an argument against
liberty but an argument against anarchy.  While some libertarians tend
towards minarchy, and some even towards anarchy, mainstream
libertarian thought recognises a) that government is evil b) that lack
of government is yet more evil.  Thus the question is not whether to
eliminate it (the answer to that is definitely not) but how to
constrain it so that it protects the liberty of its citizens from all
encroachment.

Anarchists care about encroachment by government; authoritarians care
about encroachment by individuals.  Libertarians care about both, and
seek to find the balance necessary to promote the most liberty for the
most individuals in the best way.

> And it depends, doesn't it?  If a "democracy" decides to make just being
> who you are illegal because their governing body is so constructed as to
> think the right of the majority to decide what's legal should extend into
> your bedroom, then you are in a tyranny, aren't you?  If a "democracy"
> decides to attach more than half of your property suddenly due to a change
> in the public opinion made manifest in law, then you are in a tyranny,
> aren't you?

That's why I've always found emphasis on democracy to be more than a
little foolish.  Certainly, it appears that democracy has the best
chance of ensuring liberty--but it is just as capable of ensuring
tyranny.  I don't care who rules or how, so long as I am free.  If a
king, an emperor or the Great Purple Poobah of Penglesh ensures my
liberties, I'll quite happily be a subject.

ObTrav: This naturally colours my view of the Imperium.  MTU is not
the one of the early LBB adventures with an Imperium out of Star Wars
and megacorps out of cyberpunk.  I latched onto statements such as the
Imperium ruling the space between stars and it having an interest in
free trade and developed a TU much rosier, I think, that many others'.
I'm afraid it doesn't overly resemble the OTU, as in mine un-feoffed
[is that a word?] worlds are much less common: almost every world is
in the posession of a noble.

But I'm an idealist:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert
that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by
themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.
                                                  --Thomas Jefferson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Akins)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Andy Akins Still Around?
In-Reply-To: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419174744.A20BC279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>

David Smart wrote:
>Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Akins?

I do :)

>I'm trying to contact him re: his T4 ship design spreadsheet
>but the andyakins@earthlink.net address from his website
>keeps bouncing email.

Yup, that address is gone. I bought my own domain (leonidae.org) and I'm 
operating from that now...

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>Try andy@leonidae.org.  I was in touch with him in March at that address.

You are correct sir!

For the record, if anyone is looking for my spreadsheets, they are now at 
www.leonidae.org/

I'm _slowly_ adding more stuff to that site, but its gonna take me a while.

	Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Akins)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>

Okay, I think this may be pretty complicated, and I wouldn't be surprised if 
the answer is "Can't be done" or "Too hard" or "Go pick up a $200 Orbital 
Dyanmics Textbook and figure it out..."

But...

...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of 
a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system from above, and the 
primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital parameters of the planet (orbital 
radius, eccentricity, orbital speed, reference point, etc) and the date.

I'd actually like to be able to do this for _the_ solar system, that is enter 
"Nov 16 1969" and be able to plot where the planets are on X,Y paper.

Now, I know that there are comercial astronomy programs (Red Shifft, etc) 
that can do this sort of thing...but I need to try and build this into a 
different program, so I gotta write the algorithm myself.

ARgh.

If anyone can lend me hand, or point me to a website, or tell me that I'm 
nuts, I'd appreciate it....

	Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:59:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:59:56 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1@aol.com>

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>> Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
>> exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
>> should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
>> do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.
>
>Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith.  Or the Libertarian
>party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.

I've often found "minarchist" more useful than "libertarian." More
technically correct, and it hasn't been hijacked by anyone yet.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt;&gt; Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
<BR>&gt;&gt; exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
<BR>&gt;&gt; should not interfere in people's private lives: &nbsp;for instance, what they
<BR>&gt;&gt; do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt;Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith. &nbsp;Or the Libertarian
<BR>&gt;party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.
<BR>
<BR>I've often found "minarchist" more useful than "libertarian." More
<BR>technically correct, and it hasn't been hijacked by anyone yet.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C365F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Well, you ARE nuts, but I don't know if that's related to your current
project ;)
<ducking>

Jesse



<snip>
If anyone can lend me hand, or point me to a website, or tell me that I'm 
nuts, I'd appreciate it....

	Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:08:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:08:14 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <200204190855.BAA14300@ping.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20419.105906.7W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> True, nuclear dampers do imply a lot of bizarre manipulations of decay
> rates that it's very difficult to explain in a way that wouldn't prove
> instantly lethal to all life.  Considering that pions are the primary
> exchange particle of the strong force, nuclear dampers would be expected
> to influence them.
>
> Doesn't help much with the problem of 'mesons aren't notably penetrating
> particles'.  Of course, explaining how nuclear dampers don't change the
> laws of physics in ways that are instantly fatal to life is also a trick.

The only application of nuclear dampers I can think of where it would
*matter* that they were lethal is fixed screens around planetary
installations. 

Then again, they'd make far too good a "death ray" if they were. <sigh>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  Graphics Help
Message-ID: <20020419181048.28151.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

This is way off topic, but I was wondering if one of
the Graphic Guru's on the list would be willing to do
a little volunteer work for my son's baseball league. 
I'm beginning to work on their web site and I need to
get an emblem for them  I have some ideas, but I am
limited to MS Paint, and, well, that just don't cut
it. :)

Thanks,
Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20419.105906.7W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019240622.1051.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> The only application of nuclear dampers I can think of where it would
> *matter* that they were lethal is fixed screens around planetary
> installations. 
> 
> Then again, they'd make far too good a "death ray" if they were. <sigh>

Well, most obvious versions of nuclear dampers either have energy requirements
best measured in kilograms, or would tend to make matter explode and are well
suited to Death Star tricks.  Incidentally, even limiting ourselves to known
effects of nuclear dampers, they're well suited to producing nova-level flares
with a reasonable sized damper, focused to accelerate fusion, pointed at the
star.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
Message-ID: <20020419182536.82956.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

All the recent talk about jump drive and 100D limits
has gotten me thinking.  OK, the assumption first...

     The Jump Grid "erases" the effects of gravity/
     tidal force/whatever that would prevent a ship
     from being outside of its own 100D limit.

If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
have they discovered in regards to this test?

Might it be possible (if not practical) to exceed the
J-6 limit.  Immagine a J-6 small xboat jumping from
within the hull of a J-6 carrier.  Can we reach J-12,
J-36, or (gasp!) J-46,656 (6^6)?  This could be an
easy launch point for an "unusual" adventures.  As in
the following:


The Patron hires the players as a retrieval squad. 
Only later do they find out where the retrieval is. 
The have 3 J-6 ships.  The HUGE, the Medium, and the
small.  The Medium is designed to Jump twice and then
Slag the J-Drive.  It doesn't have anything else of
its own, simply a hull, fuel, and a J-6 drive.  The
Huge and Medium engage together with the Small in the
hull of the Medium (and the PC's in the Small).  The
Medium Jumps 46,656 parsecs into an unknown territory.
 The PC's have to retrieve the scientist who tested
the first ship and return by engaging the Medium and
Small J-6's at the same time to get home.

I know it isn't official canon (cannon?) or is it? 
Have all the research experiments from all the
research stations in the Imperium been posted to the
citizens?  Hmmm.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:33:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:33:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020419182536.82956.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019241046.5627.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> 
> If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
> HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
> during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
> entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
> stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
> have they discovered in regards to this test?

My suspicion would be 'both ships disappear'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>; from andy@leonidae.org on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:53:42PM -0500
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419130413.B24789@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:53:42PM -0500, Andy Akins wrote:
> 
> ...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of 
> a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system from above, and the 
> primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital parameters of the planet (orbital 
> radius, eccentricity, orbital speed, reference point, etc) and the date.

Well, for the simplest case assume that the planet is in a perfect
circular orbit around its star and that it started its orbit directly
`north' of that star.  Planet.period is the time it take to complete 1
rotation around the star.

orbit_degree(planet, time) = 360*time/planet.period mod 360

Then from orbit_degree it's fairly simple to determine where along the
circle the planet is.  For a very simple first approximation of a
planetary orbit, this is sufficient--for a slightly less simple an a
random deviation based on eccentricity.


It gets rather more complicated from there.

A real orbit is an ellipse, with the star being rotated around at one
of the focii (not really true, but close enough).

<http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html> should provide something
of a start.  I've gotten as far as determining the definitions of
major and minor axes in terms of eccentricity.  If one assumes that
the `average seperation' used in GT is the average of min and max
seperations, not the average distance over time, then the major axis
2a is simpy min_sep + max_sep, and the minor axis 2b =
2a*sqrt(1-ecc^2).

I don't recall which definition of average seperation GT uses.  I've a
nasty feeling that sometimes it's simply the average of min and max,
and sometimes it's an average over time.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty
clearly to protect political discourse.  But liberals reject the notion
that free speech is therefore limited to political topics, even broadly
defined.  True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself.
But why leap to the conclusion that a broadly worded constitutional
freedom (`the right of the people to keep and bear arms') is narrowly
limited by its stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away?
My New Republic colleague Mickey Kaus says that if liberals interpreted
the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest of the Bill of
Rights, there would be law professors arguing that gun ownership is
mandatory.       --Michael Kinsley Washington Post, January 8, 1990

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:10:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:10:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419145637.041a0f88@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:53 PM 4/19/2002, Andy Akins wrote:
>Okay, I think this may be pretty complicated [...] I would _really_ like a 
>formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of a planet.


I have a book (that's about 20 years old now) called _Practical Astronomy 
with Your Calculator_ that may be of use to you.  Particularly if you're 
going for gaming-accuracy approximations (rather than pointing a real 
telescope or navigating an actual spacecraft).  It appears to have been 
revised in 1990, and looks like it's still in print.  Go to Amazon.com, and 
punch in the title; it should come right up.

It's mainly aimed at the backyard astronomer, but I think there is enough 
information given to translate between the various coordinate systems, and 
provide the X,Y coordinates that you're asking for.  Also browsing through 
the astronomy section on Amazon, I saw _Fundamentals of Astrodynamics_, 
which is inexpensive and appears to be useful.

Good luck,


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

.
> 
> Pilots are made into officers for reasons of
> tradition and there's no 
> real reason for them to be, no matter what they
> might say on this.
> 
Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
or no reason for them to be grunts first?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>; from andy@leonidae.org on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:53:42PM -0500
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>

Here's some more info from the page I mentioned
<http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html>.  Assuming, once again,
that the standard orbital radius is the simple of min and max radii,
we have:

(1) min_sep + max_sep = 2a (the major axis; distance from one end of the
			   orbit to another)

(2) min_sep(planet) = planet.radius*(1-planet.ecc)

(3) max_sep(planet) = planet.radius*(1+planet.ecc)

and thus:

(4) major(planet) = 2*planet.radius

(5) semimajor(planet) = planet.radius

We also have a function returning current degree from `north':

(6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)

Given orbital_deg(), we can find distance from a focus by:

(7) radius(planet,time) = (semimajor(planet)*(1-planet.ecc^2)) /
    (1+planet.ecc*cos(orbital_deg(planet, time)))

And for an ellipse, where theta = orbital_deg(planet,time), r =
radius(planet, time) and c = semimajor(planet)*planet.ecc:

(8) x = c + r cos theta
(9) y = r sin theta

Which in our case reduces to:

(8a) x(planet, time) = semimajor(planet)*planet.ecc +
		       semimajor(planet)*(1-planet.ecc^2)

(9a) y(planet, time) = radius(planet, time) * orbital_deg(planet, time)

None of this has been tested outed, and I could very well be
wrong--I'm no physicist, and while I was a Math/CS major the emphasis
was on CS.  And I'm rusty.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A properly balanced sword is the most versatile weapon for close
quarters ever devised: a sword never jams, never has to be reloaded;
it is always ready.                               --Robert Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>

Paul Walker writes:
> 
> If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
> HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
> during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
> entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
> stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
> have they discovered in regards to this test?

I wouldn't recommend engaging a jump drive while sitting in the hold of a
ship already in jump-space. As far as the results of such an event, I would
assume a 99.9% chance of a catastrophic catastrophy.
Perhaps there'd be a One in a Trillion chance that the ship would end up
300,000 LY away in the Andromeda Galaxy (or at the exit 13A Toll Plaza on
the NJ Turnpike for that matter).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:41:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:41:30 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8E5C044.577B2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/19/02 12:32 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> or no reason for them to be grunts first?
> 

The Air Force doesn't have 'grunts'.  Didn't you know that?  They have
technicians (Excepting Para Rescue and a few other oddballs who'd probably
be happier in the Army or Marines. :)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:44:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:44:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1019245236.0.55880100@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Mr. Whipsnade posted:
>
<snip>
> As you all well know, I'm not the sharpest tool
> in the shed
<snip>

EXCUSE ME? After your "Colossus" posts detailing your alternate ending to the MT Rebellion, I'll be happy to debate your statement with you or anyone else.

That was a masterful piece of work, sir, and one that has become a permanent part of my MT campaigns. I haven't seen much of your other work but quality, not quantity, is the mark of excellence (as Imperium Games found out the hard way).

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020419113915.A24789@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191235301.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:10:22AM -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> >
> > A libertarian social contract supports the right to life (for
> > persons who have been born), liberty, property, privacy, and free
> > association.
> 
> I'd like to point out--solely to avoid misunderstanding--that there is
> debate within libertarian circles regarding the personhood of those
> yet unborn, and that this naturally colours perception of the rights
> appertaining thereto.  Not going to mention my own thoughts, as they
> have no business being here.

There is always going to be debate, but I'm talking about what nearly all
libertarians can agree on, which is that people who have been born have
the right to continue living, unless of course they are killed by someone 
who is defending themselves against their attack.
 
> Otherwise I quite agree with Kiri's post.  Although I've not read the
> story in question, it very much sounded not like an argument against
> liberty but an argument against anarchy. 

Exactly so.  But then, we usually agree about political matters, and we
both regard matters of religion as private.  :)

> While some libertarians tend towards minarchy, and some even towards
> anarchy, mainstream libertarian thought recognises a) that government
> is evil b) that lack of government is yet more evil.  Thus the
> question is not whether to eliminate it (the answer to that is
> definitely not) but how to constrain it so that it protects the
> liberty of its citizens from all encroachment.

Exactly.
 
> Anarchists care about encroachment by government; authoritarians care
> about encroachment by individuals.  Libertarians care about both, and
> seek to find the balance necessary to promote the most liberty for the
> most individuals in the best way.

That is the best explanation I've heard yet.  Might steal it for the quote
file if you don't mind.

> > And it depends, doesn't it?  If a "democracy" decides to make just being
> > who you are illegal because their governing body is so constructed as to
> > think the right of the majority to decide what's legal should extend into
> > your bedroom, then you are in a tyranny, aren't you?  If a "democracy"
> > decides to attach more than half of your property suddenly due to a change
> > in the public opinion made manifest in law, then you are in a tyranny,
> > aren't you?
> 
> That's why I've always found emphasis on democracy to be more than a
> little foolish.  Certainly, it appears that democracy has the best
> chance of ensuring liberty--but it is just as capable of ensuring
> tyranny.  I don't care who rules or how, so long as I am free.  If a
> king, an emperor or the Great Purple Poobah of Penglesh ensures my
> liberties, I'll quite happily be a subject.

I can certainly understand that, but whatever the government is, it should
have checks and balances.  The problem with monarchy is that it's usually
hereditary and there's no guarantee that a monarch who ensures our liberty
will be succeeded by another one just like him/her.

> ObTrav: This naturally colours my view of the Imperium.  MTU is not
> the one of the early LBB adventures with an Imperium out of Star Wars
> and megacorps out of cyberpunk.  I latched onto statements such as the
> Imperium ruling the space between stars and it having an interest in
> free trade and developed a TU much rosier, I think, that many others'.
> I'm afraid it doesn't overly resemble the OTU, as in mine un-feoffed
> [is that a word?] worlds are much less common: almost every world is
> in the posession of a noble.
> 
> But I'm an idealist:-)

Indeed.  I'm more of a cold, hard realist; my libertarianism springs from
the knowledge that if you give 200 million people a voice in your private
life, or what you can own, or what you can do with what you own, they'll
often take it... and feel justified in so doing, if you allow yourself to 
become dependent upon their largesse, enforced or not.... :)

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:51:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:51:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019245364.3010.ajackson@ping>

Robert A. Uhl writes:
> Here's some more info from the page I mentioned
> <http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html>.  Assuming, once again,
> that the standard orbital radius is the simple of min and max radii,

It's usually the semi-major axis, which is, yes, the average of min and max.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:56:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:56:13 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

laning wrote:
> 
>> Does AOL offer SMTP and (POP3 or IMAP) to its subscribers?  If so, you
>> can use any mail client you wish.  I understand that Mozilla's is very
>> good, for those who like GUI clients.
> 
> 
> Not last I heard.  There was an alpha test of that using employees only 
> a couple or three years ago and it wandered into a swamp and never came 
> out.  

Au contraire, mon frere....I am happily using Mozilla 0.9.9 right now, 
with the magic 1.0 release coming in about a month. It will be a rather 
well-behaved 1.0 release as well.

http://www.mozilla.org

Mozilla has been my main browser/mail application for over a year now, 
and I am quite pleased with it.

You might have seen it as Netscape 6.2...(same program with a Netscape 
theme) Netscape 6.0 was the MOzilla 0.7 or 0.8 release, was slow and had 
many bugs, but the current version is quite nice, and a good performer, imo.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:58:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:58:44 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019237432.7515.ajackson@ping>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419154608.00b8a5f0@urbin.net>

At 10:30 AM 4/19/02 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Kiri Aradia Morgan writes:
> > That's NOT a refutation of libertarianism, it's a refutation of anarchy.
>Well, a lot of the libertarians seem to be anarchists in disguise, though it's
>true that they're not technically the same thing.

Well, perhaps when viewed from a leftist lens.
Libertarians do not believe in a "Nanny State" that is the dream/goal of 
many dempublicans.
The Libertarianism is not anarchy. It is, as Kiri pointed out, a clearly 
defined social contract between the citizens of the state and the 
government they selected to run it.

> > Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
> > exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
> > should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
> > do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.
>Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith.  Or the Libertarian
>party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.

Hmm...I just stopped by <http://www.lp.org/> and read some position papers.
I agree with Kiri.  She just happened to pick and example of a single 
position that the ACLU happens to agree with the LP platform.

In fact, the LP web site lists the ACLU (along with a link) as an 
organization that also supports privacy rights.
I wonder if you can find a link to the Libertarian Party site anywhere on 
the ACLU site...


ObTrav: Nope...not going there...I vote this thread goes to the tml-chat list.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:02:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:02:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <DAV14zx4iXK3M38gh6y00018aa9@hotmail.com>

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Don't forge the influence of Rand on Libertarianism.
And of course, don't forget that the current Libertarian party leadership=
 fully believes in guilt by association. Consider the habits of Rand and =
the later writings of Heinlein and then consider what they say about Libe=
rtarians.

Of course, I like Norman Spinrad and his take on electronic democracy. :-=
P


Sam

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<HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Don't forge th=
e influence of Rand on Libertarianism.</DIV> <DIV>And of course, don't fo=
rget that the current Libertarian party leadership fully believes in guil=
t by association. Consider the habits of Rand and the later writings of H=
einlein and then consider what they say about Libertarians.</DIV> <DIV>&n=
bsp;</DIV> <DIV>Of course, I like Norman Spinrad and his take on electron=
ic democracy. :-P</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Sam</DIV=
></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:10:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:10:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419154608.00b8a5f0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019246981.7419.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:

> In fact, the LP web site lists the ACLU (along with a link) as an 
> organization that also supports privacy rights.
> I wonder if you can find a link to the Libertarian Party site anywhere on 
> the ACLU site...

Well, I can't find _any_ links to other organizations on the ACLU site, so no. 
You can find some court cases where the ACLU and the libertarian party were
co-defendants, however.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191235301.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:41:40PM -0700
References: <20020419113915.A24789@4dv.net> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191235301.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020419141527.A25183@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:41:40PM -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> There is always going to be debate, but I'm talking about what nearly all
> libertarians can agree on, which is that people who have been born have
> the right to continue living, unless of course they are killed by someone 
> who is defending themselves against their attack.

I'd phrase it as `libertarians believe that people have the right to
go on living, unless they do something to negate that right.'  By
leaving unsaid what a person is, and what can be done to negate that
right, we've a definition that just about anyone can, I think agree
to.  And then argue to their heart's content about the undefined
terms.  On another list...

> > Anarchists care about encroachment by government; authoritarians care
> > about encroachment by individuals.  Libertarians care about both, and
> > seek to find the balance necessary to promote the most liberty for the
> > most individuals in the best way.
> 
> That is the best explanation I've heard yet.  Might steal it for the quote
> file if you don't mind.

I don't believe in restricting non-deceptive quoting:-)

> I can certainly understand that, but whatever the government is, it should
> have checks and balances.  The problem with monarchy is that it's usually
> hereditary and there's no guarantee that a monarch who ensures our liberty
> will be succeeded by another one just like him/her.

Yep--that's why I said that democracy seems to be the best.  I wonder,
though, how a combined system would work.  A king, an aristocratic
house, a common house a democratic plebiscites.  Balance them all
against one another and with any luck once they'd gotten around to:
forbidding murder, rape, theft and fraud; establishing property and
privacy law; and funding the military, they'd just settle down into
fruitless doing nothing.

> Indeed.  I'm more of a cold, hard realist; my libertarianism springs from
> the knowledge that if you give 200 million people a voice in your private
> life, or what you can own, or what you can do with what you own, they'll
> often take it... and feel justified in so doing, if you allow yourself to 
> become dependent upon their largesse, enforced or not.... :)

That's why I like the idea of a government of men, not laws.  It's
dashed difficult to kill a law, but very easy to kill a man.  Being a
man, he knows this, and acts circumspectly.

See, there's one Emperor.  And a septillion sophonts out there.  He'd
better be doing his best not to alienate too many of them at any one
time.

This would, of course, lead to priority being given to worlds near
Capital, as they are the ones for which it is simplest to retaliate.
But to balance that fact IMTU there's a fairly active Moot, which
being made of equal representatives from across the Imperium tends to
level that voice out (much as in the US Colo. has nearly the same
voice in federal affairs that Va. has).  There's a balance between the
Emperor and the Moot such that for both the man and the entity the
best path is the way of least action.

Which in a government is a desirable thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To murder a man is much odious, to kill a woman is in manner unnatural,
but to slay and destroy innocent babes and young infants, the whole
world abhorreth, and their blood from the earth crieth for vengeance to
almighty God.                                    --Edward Hall, c. 1480

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV14zx4iXK3M38gh6y00018aa9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E5C9B9.577DC%listmom@travellercentral.com>

on 4/19/02 12:56 PM, Samuel Weiss at samwise1@msn.com wrote:
  
>Sam

Sam,

Please don't use styled text on the list.

Thanks

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019246981.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8E5CAD9.577E6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/19/02 1:09 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> 
> Well, I can't find _any_ links to other organizations on the ACLU site, so no.
> You can find some court cases where the ACLU and the libertarian party were
> co-defendants, however.

That doesn't say much. I seem to recall the ACLU and NRA being co-plaintiffs
recently.  

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020419202918.31056.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
> Paul Walker writes:
> > 
> > If this is the case, what would happen if there
> were a
> > HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump
> (or
> > during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
> > entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
> > stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
> > have they discovered in regards to this test?
> 
> I wouldn't recommend engaging a jump drive while
> sitting in the hold of a
> ship already in jump-space. As far as the results of
> such an event, I would
> assume a 99.9% chance of a catastrophic catastrophy.
> Perhaps there'd be a One in a Trillion chance that
> the ship would end up
> 300,000 LY away in the Andromeda Galaxy (or at the
> exit 13A Toll Plaza on
> the NJ Turnpike for that matter).

But why?  This is the second reply I got that said it
would be a bad thing and would probably destroy all
ships involved.  Is there any support for this?  I'm
not opposed to non OTU, but my original question was
whether there was anything in the official rules
and/or history to support or prevent such occurances?

Thanks,
Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>

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Sorry to take up space with this.

Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in stand=
ard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I have wrong=
?


Sam

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<HTML><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff" STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"=
><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Sorry to take up space with this.</DIV> <DIV>&nbs=
p;</DIV> <DIV>Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was=
 sent in standard format. I use arial as my font.<FONT color=3D#000000>&n=
bsp;What other setting&nbsp;might I have wrong?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;<=
/DIV> <DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] the handwaving is getting closer to real life
Message-ID: <200204192111.EOL06094@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Yet another variant on "quantum" something.

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2861822,
00.html
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:25:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:25:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191423490.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Samuel Weiss wrote:

> 
> Sorry to take up space with this.
> 
> Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in
> standard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I
> have wrong?

The fact that you HAVE a "font" setting means that you are using styled
text-- your mail client may be calling it "rich text" or HTML instead,
though.

Please turn it off.

Thanks,
Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419172919.00b89740@urbin.net>

Plain ASCII would be best.

At 04:37 PM 4/19/02 -0400, Samuel Weiss wrote:
>
>Sorry to take up space with this.
>
>Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in 
>standard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I have wrong?
>
>
>Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019240622.1051.ajackson@ping>
References: <20419.105906.7W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <ML-2.3.1019240622.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020420073353.A4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> they're well suited to producing nova-level flares with a reasonable
> sized damper, focused to accelerate fusion, pointed at the star.

I've always thought of them as affecting only isotopes that were
already unstable, essentially just modifying the probability that they
decay right there and then.  They can accelerate decay of radiocative
materials, or prevent it.  They can suppress a fission chain reaction
by preventing the decay of nuclei that have one too many neutrons, or
accelerate it by increasing the rate at which the fuel nuclei decay
initially.

IMTU, their effect on pure fusion is almost negligible.  If you could
project the field into the core of a star, you might be able to stop
some of the side-reactions based on decay of unstable isotopes, but
this would not have an immediate effect.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:39:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:39:13 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <B8E5CAD9.577E6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191434420.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/19/02 1:09 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Well, I can't find _any_ links to other organizations on the ACLU site, so no.
> > You can find some court cases where the ACLU and the libertarian party were
> > co-defendants, however.
> 
> That doesn't say much. I seem to recall the ACLU and NRA being co-plaintiffs
> recently.  

Well, that really ought to happen more often, given the fact that the ACLU
is supposed to be engaged in protecting the Bill of Rights.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:42:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:42:09 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net> <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020420074153.B4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Au contraire, mon frere....I am happily using Mozilla 0.9.9 right now, 
> with the magic 1.0 release coming in about a month. It will be a rather 
> well-behaved 1.0 release as well.

I think laning was referring to POP & IMAP test having wandered into a
swamp, not to Mozilla.  (Did mozilla even have functional mail a year
or three ago?)


> You might have seen it as Netscape 6.2...(same program with a
> Netscape theme) Netscape 6.0 was the MOzilla 0.7 or 0.8 release, was
> slow and had many bugs, but the current version is quite nice, and a
> good performer, imo.

Yes, I use Mozilla 0.9.9 as my everyday web browser.  I use mutt as my
email client.  Not because Mozilla's is bad, just because Mutt is
*good* and I often like to use it from work over a 56k connection :)
(In the words of the author -- "All mail clients suck.  This one just
sucks less.")


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:49:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:49:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020419202918.31056.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419164150.01eb9740@mail.qrc.com>

At 04:29 PM 4/19/2002, Paul Walker wrote:
>[Is] there was anything in the official rules and/or history to support or 
>prevent such occurances?

The specific situation - attempting to activate a jump drive while already 
in jump space - is (to the best of my knowledge) undefined in all versions 
of the Traveller rules.  Thus, in your Traveller universe you can have any 
sort of outcome you would like.  However, I believe Marc Miller is on 
record as saying on numerous occasions that any sort of controlled jump 
longer than 6 parsecs is flatly impossible in Traveller.

In every other case that is covered by the rules, attempting to do 
something unusual with a jump drive causes one of three results: either 
nothing happens, the ship misjumps, or is catastrophically destroyed.  Any 
of these would be appropriate, and destruction sounds most likely to me as 
well.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <20020420074153.B4777@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 07:41:53AM +1000
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net> <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020420074153.B4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020419155915.A25440@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 07:41:53AM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Yes, I use Mozilla 0.9.9 as my everyday web browser.  I use mutt as
> my email client.

Ditto on both counts here.  Mozilla is simply the best browser out
there (tabbed browsing has changed my web browsing habits for good).
Mutt is an excellent little MUA.

I have been considering using gnus or RMAIL to read mail, though.
Both are within emacs, and with a little bit of work on a few things
I'd never need to leave the great Editor-that-Is.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give
orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem,
pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently,
die gallantly.  Specialization is for insects.
                            --Robert Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420073353.A4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019253756.6212.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> I've always thought of them as affecting only isotopes that were
> already unstable, essentially just modifying the probability that they
> decay right there and then.

So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier around a
nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many nuclei, since the range
of the strong force is important), or you're altering the probability of
quantum tunneling (which I suspect would have dire effects on chemistry).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEHMDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi

You need to solve Kepler's Equations to get the "mean anomaly" and from that
determine the orbital coordinates.

It's not simple, the equation is something like E = msinE, so the answer is
also part of the equation, and the only real method of solution is to
iteration.

To get that far, you need to have five, maybe six values to define an
orbital path - argument of perihelion, longitude of ascending node,
inclination to ecliptic plane, semimajor axis, orbital eccentricity - and
the point in time (the "epoch") for which all of these apply. You will need
to be aware of time here, as astronomers use standard timescales to
eliminate issues associated with timezones etc, and also the difference
between the solar day and the sidereal (i.e. stellar day) of 3mins 56secs.

On top of that, orbits are perturbed by other planets and objects, and you
need to account for atmospheric effects (refraction) and lightspeed lag
(aberration) if you intend to draw a night sky view. If you want to do it
over a very long period, then you need to account for precession of orbital
nodes/elements as well.

However, I've written a Java Orrery for my RuneQuest campaign world that
accounts for all of the above, and can predict eclipses, various planetary
alignments, zodiacal houses and a few bits besides. With a bit of work it
could handle any solar system you like to imagine.

Mail me off list and I'll see what I can do.

Regards

Andy Brick

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 17/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
> .
> > 
> > Pilots are made into officers for reasons of
> > tradition and there's no 
> > real reason for them to be, no matter what they
> > might say on this.
> > 
> Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> or no reason for them to be grunts first?
> 
  >>
  Pilots are officers because the military does not
want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
why........

     MACessna
  >>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:43:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:43:27 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
 <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8e64cae2f75@[143.232.119.186]>

At 6:45 PM +1000 4/19/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>Brian Caball wrote:
>>  Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel"
>>  problems: Nuclear Damping Technology.
>
>The only problem is, why doesn't a meson gun then function
>automatically as a perfect meson screen?  If you can prevent your
>mesons decaying over distances of up to millions of kilometres, why
>can't you ensure that the other guy's mesons don't decay within a
>range of twenty metres?

This is close to the explination I've always used.  Meson guns 
contrive to produce mesons with a known lifetime though the use of 
technology related to what they use for nuclear dampers.

Why doesn't that make them also meson screens?  One answers is the 
limitations in word "related".  It can be related without having the 
same configuration you need for screen.  The second is that if the 
effect acts inside the weapon, then it would only act as a screen for 
mesons shot into the weapon.

If you want a full fledged screen, you have to set it up that way....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 17:43:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 19 16:43:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Message from John G. Wood -- [OT] New Gamer :)
Message-ID: <74.1b98a336.29f20575@aol.com>

Here's a message John has asked me to forward to the TML:


 >Folks,
 >
 >Some of you may remember me - I was a member of the list up until about
 >a  year ago, although never a prolific poster. Since many of you have 
 >expressed personal interest in the past, I've asked Michael to post
 >this  for me.
 >
 >Our son Isaac was born in the early hours of Friday 12th April,
 >weighing  in at 8lb 4oz (3.75kg) - everything went well, mother and
 >baby were home  by 7:30 *AM*, and we're settling into a new routine of
 >sorts. His big  sister May (two years old on the 17th) is fascinated by
 >him. I've put some  pictures up on the website at
 >http://www.elvwood.org/Family/BabyIsaac.html 
 >- larger versions are linked from the thumbnails.
 >
 >For those who care, my Traveller gaming has actually increased slightly
 > since I left the list. I got to meet (and play GURPS Traveller with) a
 >TML  member at GenCon UK [waves to Megan], then played two games of
 >classic at  Dragonmeet - where I also got to sign copies of _101
 >Corporations_, which  was a laugh.
 >
 >Take care all,
 >
 >John <john@elvwood.org> http://www.elvwood.org/Traveller/
 >
 >P.S. I recently updated the website; the Traveller section hasn't
 >changed  much but the GURPS section has expanded quite a bit.
 >
 >P.P.S. I also moved hosts. Using the Elvwood domain in links (rather
 >than  the actual site it points to) is best since I own it, so it won't
 >change.
 >

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020420102803.C4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Akins wrote:
> ...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y
> coordinates of a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system
> from above, and the primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital
> parameters of the planet (orbital radius, eccentricity, orbital
> speed, reference point, etc) and the date.

Go pick up a $200 orbital dynamics textbook and figure it out.  :)


That said, if you're willing to ignore interactions between planets,
you can get a reasonable approximation with simple trig functions.  It
won't give you enough accuracy to point a telescope at them, but it
will suffice for a 2D graphical display of a system.

Start with the semi-major axis 'a' (the average of closest and most
distant approach to the star), and the eccentricity 'e'.  You can work
out the period from this, using

 T = 2 pi / sqrt(G M / a^3),

where M is the mass of the star and G is the gravitational constant.
(Oddly enough, it does not depend upon the eccentricity).

The distance 'r' from the star at a given angle 'theta' from
perihelion is given by

  r = a (1 - e^2) / (1 + e cos theta)

So this gives you the shape of the orbit.  The position variation with
time is rather messier.  I couldn't find a formula anywhere, so I
built one myself:

Let 't' be the number of orbits (or fractional orbits).  Then

  theta = 2 arctan ((1+e) tan(pi t) / sqrt(1-e^2)).  (I hope)

So for any given time, you can work out theta and hence r.


The overview: use heliocentric coordinates, i.e. with the sun at 0,0.
Find the semimajor axis 'a' and eccentricity 'a' for the planet, and
some time 'T0' when it passed through perihelion.  Also find the
angular position of that perihelion 'theta0' (relative to your X
axis).  Calculate T.

Now for any given time T1, t = (T1 - T0) / T.  Work out theta based on
t, and r based on theta.  Let theta1 = theta + theta0.

Now, X = r cos theta1, Y = r sin theta1, and you're done!

Of course, I may have made all sorts of blunders in my calculations
here, I haven't had breakfast yet!  This algorithm is offered without
warranty, including the implied warranties of merchantability ... etc.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020420103427.D4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> We also have a function returning current degree from `north':
> 
> (6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)

This is a problematic formula.  The angle swept out by a planet in
orbit is not linear in time (which I'm guessing is what you meant).
It varies in a more complicated manner.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019253756.6212.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020420073353.A4777@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1019253756.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier
> around a nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many
> nuclei, since the range of the strong force is important), or you're
> altering the probability of quantum tunneling (which I suspect would
> have dire effects on chemistry).

The latter, but only for nucleons.  This should have virtually no
effect on chemistry, which depends exclusively on electron
wavefunctions.  It would have a an effect on fusion in cases where the
fusing plasma is only marginally hot enough.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEHMDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEHMDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020420104411.F4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Brick wrote:
> To get that far, you need to have five, maybe six values to define
> an orbital path - argument of perihelion, longitude of ascending
> node, inclination to ecliptic plane, semimajor axis, orbital
> eccentricity - and the point in time (the "epoch") for which all of
> these apply.

You don't need the longitude of the ascending node or the inclination
to ecliptic plane if you're just interested in a 2D planar system.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019263660.4086.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier
> > around a nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many
> > nuclei, since the range of the strong force is important), or you're
> > altering the probability of quantum tunneling (which I suspect would
> > have dire effects on chemistry).
> 
> The latter, but only for nucleons.

Aha, so we have magically targeted changes in the rules of quantum mechanics.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 19:08:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 18:08:15 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEHCGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Gee,

And to think I thought you just took a bunch on Quarks, 
stirred in just enough gluons and VOILA!!!!

Seriously once you get into that energy domain, chemistry
is the last thing you are worried about.


JML
"Now kids, make sure that your triggering charge fuses the Hydrogen 
Nuclei all at once."

A scene from the last episode of 'Fun with Chemistry'.


Subject: Re: [TML] How Mesons a

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier
> around a nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many
> nuclei, since the range of the strong force is important), or you're
> altering the probability of quantum tunneling (which I suspect would
> have dire effects on chemistry).

The latter, but only for nucleons.  This should have virtually no
effect on chemistry, which depends exclusively on electron
wavefunctions.  It would have a an effect on fusion in cases where the
fusing plasma is only marginally hot enough.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 19:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 18:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020420103427.D4777@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:34:27AM +1000
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net> <20020420103427.D4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020419191148.A25850@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:34:27AM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > We also have a function returning current degree from `north':
> > 
> > (6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)
> 
> This is a problematic formula.  The angle swept out by a planet in
> orbit is not linear in time (which I'm guessing is what you meant).
> It varies in a more complicated manner.

Well, it _was_ an off-the-cuff first approximation.  I understand that
it actually accelerates towards the star, zips around it, then slows
down as it flies away.  Which is something the opposite of what my
formula would do--it'd appear to move more quickly at the far end as
at the near bit.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I remember when everybody posted to Usenet with their real, deliverable
e-mail address.  Of all the sins committed by the spammers, destroying
the viability of the open Internet was the worst.
                      --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 19:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Fri Apr 19 18:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS TML SKILLS
References: <20020417145227.5577E279F2@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <19435.1019129225@www58.gmx.net>

Michael Hughes wrote:
> I love Megatraveller, but like all RPGers I changed it to taste. So for my
> system, which has a combo of MT & T4 skills, plus some of my own, any
> skill
> that is related gives a Synergy bonus. For example, I consider Computers
> and
> Robotics linked skills. If you have a Skill level of 2-3 you can add a DM
> of
> 1 to a linked skill, and if Skill level 4+ add 2. If you have more than
> one
> linked skill then you only add the highest bonus. 

Nice idea - I could propably implement something like that into starship
combat, where IMHO the human aspect is overruled by computers... 'synergyzing'
skills and computers would be more to my taste.

> I have found it works very well. I am more than happy to email to you if
> you're interested, along with the reworked task & generation rules. 

That would be superb :-)  I'm allways looking for new input, especially
regarding something that's been around as long as MT.
So feel free to use my upper adress...

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419191148.A25850@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEHFGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Off the top of my head.

As you know in a given amount of time a 
planet will sweep a constant area.  Assuming 
a reasonably non eccentric orbit this could 
be approximated as an rissoles triangle with 
each long arm being the orbital radius.  The 
planet would cover a distance of roughly 
the magic area divided by the orbital radius.  
At the beginning of the next time period the 
planet's radius is (old radius + ( eccentricity
* (Magic time/orbital period) * [ 1 if 
receding from the Sun, -1 if approaching the Sun]).  
You have all three sides so use the law of cosines
to extract the angle swept, accumulate it from your 
starting angle to find the new angle.  Repeat this 
until you get to the time you want.

You only have  to calculate to half an orbit. 
If you supply the area, the starting angle, and 
the starting radius in addition to the normal 
information and you only need generate its radius 
and angle when a ship is jumping.

Unfortunately I can't see off the top of my head 
a quick way to extract the correct orbital radius 
and angle at any arbitrary time without recursion 
and a number of calculations


Yes, I realize that this will break down close to 
the primary and with eccentric orbits.

jml

Given what I recall doing in high school shop class,
I'm not all that certain that letting secondary students learn 
recombinant DNA techniques is all that good an idea.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:34:27AM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > We also have a function returning current degree from `north':
> > 
> > (6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)
> 
> This is a problematic formula.  The angle swept out by a planet in
> orbit is not linear in time (which I'm guessing is what you meant).
> It varies in a more complicated manner.

Well, it _was_ an off-the-cuff first approximation.  I understand that
it actually accelerates towards the star, zips around it, then slows
down as it flies away.  Which is something the opposite of what my
formula would do--it'd appear to move more quickly at the far end as
at the near bit.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I remember when everybody posted to Usenet with their real, deliverable
e-mail address.  Of all the sins committed by the spammers, destroying
the viability of the open Internet was the worst.
                      --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>

At 03:35 PM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Pilots are officers because the military does not
>want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
>flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
>though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
>the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
>arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
>that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
>wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
>why........

That being said, during WWII the Germans used enlisted pilots, as did the 
RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying sergeants, since they thought 
there was no reason to tie up perfectly good officers in what was 
essentially a technical skill.  That died as carriers came to the fore, and 
more Marines came to be stationed on ships. Many of the old Flying 
Sergeants received reserve commissions as officers, while retaining their 
permanent rank as enlisted men.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019263660.4086.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1019263660.4086.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020420121558.A5360@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Aha, so we have magically targeted changes in the rules of quantum
> mechanics.

Yes, that's the one :)

It goes well with the magical reactionless thrusters (or magical
HEPlaR), magical jump drive, magical meson beams, magical gravity
suppression, magical artifical gravity, and magical computer viruses.
After that, you've got the *real* magic of the Ancients' stuff...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419192446.021e1ec0@mail.verizon.net>

Hi Larsen,

Try searching for the term   "table of organization and 
equipment"   (include the surrounding quotes). I had a lot of hits when 
taking that approach.  Sorry for putting this on the web, but I can't 
contact you offlist without an email address.  :-)

Best regards and happy surfing!

Charles


At 01:45 AM 4/19/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
>     Could some kind soul please contact me off-List with some links to 
> sites that list various combat formation TO&Es?  I've tried Google until 
> my eyes crossed with no avail.  As you all well know, I'm not the 
> sharpest tool in the shed and my surfing abilities suffer as a consequence.
>     The recent TML thread discussing unit TO&Es and the well deserved 
> praise for Mr. Berry's accomplishments regarding them in GT:GF gave me 
> cause to flush all the unit descriptions in my "Dirty Little War" project.
>     Specifically, I'm interested in TO&Es from the turn of the last 
> century, say the 1905/Russo-Japanese War to 1918/Great War range.  This 
> implies large squad automatic weapons, clunky AFVs, and early combat aircraft.
>     Thank you.
>
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Larsen
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
>http://www.hotmail.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEHIGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

So did the Japanese fleet arm, so did the Soviets during the
early part of the war.

I think putting officers in charge of planes is mainly the cool
factor.  The person actually steering any navy ship is an EM
I believe, rather low of the totem pole too.  Larsen can correct
me if I'm wrong

OB TrAV
If you think about there is little difference between a Grav Tank and a
fighter at high enough TL's.  Does anyone seriously think it's just
officers driving all those grav tanks.

jml
______________________
Military -- Bangs for the Buck
Hunters  -- Bucks for the Bang
______________________
:
:
:

That being said, during WWII the Germans used enlisted pilots, as did the
RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying sergeants, since they thought
there was no reason to tie up perfectly good officers in what was
essentially a technical skill.  That died as carriers came to the fore, and
more Marines came to be stationed on ships. Many of the old Flying
Sergeants received reserve commissions as officers, while retaining their
permanent rank as enlisted men.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:36:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:36:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
References: <20020420004404.79A6F279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008201c1e814$658fd700$265d8690@computer>

> From: Michael Cessna
>   Pilots are officers because the military does not
> want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....

No.  The 'pilots are officers' thing dates all the way back to the
beginnings of military aviation.

The logic, presumably, was that a pilot was a gentleman and an educated
professional, of a higher social class to the mere tradesmen and mechanics
that worked on the ground.

There have been exceptions - "Flight Sergeants" occasionally served as
pilots in WWII.

Winston Churchill's comments on Naval Tradition apply to the traditions of
other services too, to a considerable extent.  Don't try to find present day
logic in them.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!

He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.

What I want to know is:
a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
Science?
b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?
c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:40:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:40:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <008301c1e814$662e8800$265d8690@computer>

> From: "Andy Brick"
> Do you really still generate worlds with just the basic rules ? Or do you
> use the World Builder's Handbook, or Book 6, or First In ?

Actually, I do just use the basic rules.  I also often hand tweak them, but
it's data from Book 3 that I am tweaking.

I also am in the process of developing my own world gen system.  It's
basically a simplified version of Book 3 that gives a narrower set of
results.  Of course, this is for a game that treats systems as essentially
synonymous with their major starports and startowns, plus a bit of tactical
space out to the 100D limit.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
References: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419223354.02274a00@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:01 PM 4/19/2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
>That being said, during WWII the Germans used enlisted pilots, as did the 
>RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying sergeants [...]

As did the U.S. Army Air Forces.  Among many others, there was a young 
mechanic named Chuck Yeager who volunteered for the USAAF version, and were 
also eventually commissioned (that Yeager fellow went on to break the 
"sound barrier" and eventually a Generals' star).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEHJGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Now that would be one Heck of a major
Imagine selling it to your faculty advisor 
(If I pull this off, you'll never have to 
worry about funding)
Imagine your senior project (take over an 
undistinguished Midwestern college)


jml
And then there is the sister school, 'ol Miskatonic U
(motto, where student pranks are the least of your problems)


> From: Douglas Berry
> No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!

He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.

What I want to know is:
a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
Science?
b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?
c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419224704.024bf070@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:34 PM 4/19/2002, Alan Bradley wrote:
>b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?

I believe Transylvania Polygnostic University (Trans-Poly U, motto: "Know 
Enough to be Afraid") offers undergraduate and graduate degrees in both.

>c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

I dunno, but Girl Genius is one heck of a comic book, if you're at all into 
Evil Medicine and Mad Science.  See: http://www.steamenginetime.com/


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F262jQlc7vtdFq7ImxU00001228@hotmail.com>

From: Charles McKnight <res0i3sf@verizon.net>

     Try searching for the term "table of organization and equipment"   
(include the surrounding quotes).


Mr. McKnight,

     Thanks for the tip.  As way of illustrating my dearth of research 
skills, I've been mindlessly typing "TO&E" into various search engines.  I 
never thought to actually SPELL the acronym out!  Did I mention that my head 
comes to a point?

     "Sorry for putting this on the web, but I can't contact you offlist 
without an email address.  :-)"

     Yet another example of typical Whipsnadian brain flatulence.  I ask the 
kind folk of the TML to contact me off-List and then neglect to provide the 
address.  Did I mention that my head comes to a point?
     Thanks again for your help.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <F55rVycmnh1OcA5ZWae0000d381@hotmail.com>

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>

     "I dunno, but Girl Genius is one heck of a comic book,..."



Mr. Wildstar,

     Perhaps the finest comic book series of the last half century is "Reid 
Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman".
     The seminal work gave us such lines as "I'm not bald, I get my hair cut 
this way." and "Seventy nine cents or I piss on your flowers."  Surely, the 
last alone puts "Fleming" in the canon of timeless Western literature.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <F55rVycmnh1OcA5ZWae0000d381@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:20:23AM +0000
References: <F55rVycmnh1OcA5ZWae0000d381@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020419212734.A1287@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:20:23AM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> 
>      Perhaps the finest comic book series of the last half century is "Reid 
> Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman".
>      The seminal work gave us such lines as "I'm not bald, I get my hair cut 
> this way." and "Seventy nine cents or I piss on your flowers."  Surely, the 
> last alone puts "Fleming" in the canon of timeless Western literature.

Now if I could only lay my hands on an issue.  Are they still in print?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In love, she who gives her portrait promises the original.  --Bruton 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204200336.EOZ00886@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>Subject: Re: [TML] Radioactivity Rules  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:20:23AM +0000, Larsen E. 
>Whipsnade wrote:
>> 
>>      Perhaps the finest comic book series of the last half 
>>century is "Reid 
>> Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman".
>>      The seminal work gave us such lines as "I'm not bald, 
>>I get my hair cut 
>> this way." and "Seventy nine cents or I piss on your 
>>flowers."  Surely, the 
>> last alone puts "Fleming" in the canon of timeless Western 
literature.
>
>Now if I could only lay my hands on an issue.  Are they 
still in print?
>
>-- 


I still like my Flaming Carrot.  It reminded me of me - but 
instead of comic books, it was reading and re-reading 
Traveller books and supplements continuously until I had 
brain damage.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:58:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:58:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Some Info...
In-Reply-To: <OF98BD72DE.DB3A42D5-ON85256B9F.005EA550@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEOAHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

William Lane wrote :
> do we have any Aeronautical Engineers on the list?

I'm primarily avionics, but I was cross-trained so I could be
ground crew for the RNZAF aerobatic team.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 23:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 19 22:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEOPHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> On 18 Apr 2002 at 6:46, Daniel Tackett wrote:
> The modern system has its origins in Medieval Europe,
> with knigh's evolving into the aristocratic officer
> class, etc.

Actually, it went the other way.
Peasants were given commissions from the crown so that they could
order around knights and other nobles, or so that lower ranking
nobles with better tactical capabilities could order around
higher-ranking nobles.

Commissions were actually a practical way of dealing with the
military problems involved in your military hierarchy being the
same as the hierarchy of your hereditary nobility.

> > I think it instills elitism in the wrong kind of
> > people and the wrong kind of people are less likely to
> > be patient enough for a couple of years as a grunt.
>
> That's also my feeling.

There is an extremely fine speech on leadership given by the then
commanding officer at Fort Sheridan, Major C.A. Bach,  who also
"came from the ranks" that is just as relevant today as when it
was given at the turn of the century. I'll see if I can dig out a
copy and post it, as while parts of it  are a little
anachronisitic, the core concepts, I believe, fit well with
Traveller's "Rule by men, not laws"

> > Not to say that we don't have some fine officers now,
> > but they still need to know what it's like to be
> > treated like a pawn in a chess game. I doubt this
> > ideology would work well for pilots though.
>
> Pilots are made into officers for reasons of tradition
> and there's no real reason for them to be, no matter
> what they might say on this.

It's not tradition. The Air Force (any air force) is too young to
have traditions. <grin>

Pilots in the New Zealand Air Force are currently, and have been
for the last twenty odd years or so, officers so that they can
order around grunt officers when they are on their aircraft (the
same reason that a Naval officer is always put in charge of any
ship carrying troops, even though you don't have to be an officer
to command a ship in the Navy), and also because we've got so few
of them that it would be difficult if one or two were enlisted
and the others weren't, as they wouldn't be able to (legally)
drink together.

The RNZAF had sergeant pilots druring World War II, and also
during the Malaysian 'adventure'.

In a larger air forces, including the U.K., the US, and the USSR,
and especially in combat wings, not all pilots are (or were)
officers. It's possible all UK pilots are now officers, seeing as
the UK has also been reducing it's spending, but there were
sergeant and warrant officer pilots in the R.A.F. definitely as
late as the fifities, and also in the US Army Air Corp in Vietnam
in the late sixties/early seventies, to mention examples where I
have personal knowledge.

However all pilots AFAIK have had rank of some sort, the lowest
I'm aware of is "corporal" pilots in Soviet Frontal Aviation.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 23:45:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 19 22:45:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020419212734.A1287@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOPHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

As I promised in another post here is the text of a speech on
leadership given by Major C.A. Bach
While parts of it are a little anachronistic, the core concepts,
I believe, fit well with Traveller.

Know Your Men, Your Business and Yourself
by Major C. A. Bach, US Army

In a short time each of you men will control the lives of a
certain number of other men. You will have in your charge loyal
but untrained citizens, who look to you for instruction and
guidance. Your word will be their law. Your most casual remark
will be remembered. Your mannerism will be aped. Your clothing,
your carriage, your vocabulary, your manner of command will be
imitated.

When you join your organization you will find there a willing
body of men who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that
will command their respect, their loyalty and their obedience.
They are perfectly ready and eager to follow you so long as you
can convince them that you have those qualities. When the time
comes that they are satisfied you do not possess them you might
as well kiss yourself goodbye. Your usefulness in that
organization is at an end.

From the standpoint of society, the world may be divided into
leaders and followers. The professions have their leaders, the
financial world has its leaders. We have religious leaders, and
political leaders, and society leaders. In all this leadership it
is difficult, if not impossible, to separate from the element of
pure leadership that selfish element of personal gain or
advantage to the individual, without which such leadership would
lose its value.

It is in the military service only, where men freely sacrifice
their lives for a faith, where men are willing to suffer and die
for the right or the prevention of a great wrong, that we can
hope to realise leadership in its most exalted and disinterested
sense. Therefore, when I say leadership, I mean military
leadership.

In a few days the great mass of you men will receive commissions
as officers. These commissions will not make you leaders; they
will merely make you officers. They will place you in a position
where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
attributes. But you must make good - not so much with the men
over you as with the men under you.

Men must and will follow into battle officers who are not
leaders, but the driving power behind these men is not enthusiasm
but discipline. They go with doubt and trembling, and with an
awful fear tugging at their heartstrings that prompts the
unspoken question, &#8220;What will he do next?&#8221;

Such men obey the letter of their orders but no more. Of devotion
to their commander, of exalted enthusiasm, which scorns personal
risk, of their self-sacrifice to ensure his personal safety, they
know nothing. Their legs carry them forward because their brain
and their training tell them they must go. Their spirit does not
go with them.
Great results are not achieved by cold, passive, unresponsive
soldiers. They don't go very far and they stop as soon as they
can. Leadership not only demands but receives the willing,
unhesitating, unfaltering obedience and loyalty of other men; and
a devotion that will cause them when the time comes to follow
their uncrowned king to bell and back again if necessary.

You will ask yourselves "Of just what, then, does leadership
consist? What must I do to become a leader? What are the
attributes of leadership and how can 1 cultivate them?"

Leadership is a composite of a number of qualities. Among the
most important I would list self-confidence, moral ascendancy,
self-sacrifice, paternalism, fairness, initiative, decision,
dignity, courage.

Let me discuss these with you in detail.

Self-confidence results, first, from exact knowledge, second, the
ability to impart that knowledge and, third, the feeling of
superiority over others that naturally follows. All these give
the officer poise.

To lead, you must know, you may bluff all your men some of the
time, but you can't do it all the time. Men will not have
confidence in an officer unless he knows his business, and he
must know it from the ground up.

The officer should know more about paperwork than his first
sergeant and company clerk put together, he should know more
about messing than his mess sergeant, more about diseases of the
horse than his troop farrier. He should be at least as good a
shot as any man in his company.

If the officer does not know, and demonstrates the fact that he
does not know, it is entirely human for the soldier to say to
himself, "To hell with him. He doesn't know as much about this as
I do", and calmly disregard the instruction received.

There is no substitute for accurate knowledge. Become so well
informed that men will hunt you up to ask questions - that your
brother officers will say to one another, "Ask Smith - he knows".

And not only should each officer know thoroughly the duties of
his own grade, but he should study those of the two grades next
above him. A two-fold benefit attaches to this. He prepares
himself for duties which may fall to his lot at any time during
battle; he further gains a broader viewpoint which enables him to
appreciate the necessity for the issuance of orders and join more
intelligently in their execution.

Not only must the officer know, but he must learn to stand on his
feet and speak without embarrassment.
1 am told that in British training camps student officers are
required to deliver ten-minute talks on any subject they may
choose. That is excellent practice. For to speak clearly one must
think clearly; and clear, logical thinking expresses itself in
definite, positive orders.

While self-confidence is the result of knowing more than your
men, moral ascendancy over them is based upon your belief that
you are the better man. To gain and maintain this ascendancy you
must have self-control, physical vitality and endurance and moral
force.

You must have yourself so well in hand that, even though in
battle you are scared stiff, you will never show fear. For if you
by so much as a hurried movement or a trembling of the hand, or a
change of expression, or a hasty order hastily revoked, indicate
your mental condition it will be reflected in your men in a far
greater degree.

In garrison or camp many instances will arise to try your temper
and wreck the sweetness of your disposition. If at such times you
&#8220;fly off the handle&#8221; you have no business to be in charge of men.
For men in anger say and do things that they almost invariably
regret afterwards.

An officer should never apologise to his men., also an officer
should never be guilty of an act for which his sense of justice
tells him he should apologise.

Another element in gaining moral ascendancy lies in the
possession of enough physical vitality and endurance to withstand
the hardships to which you and your men are subjected, and a
dauntless spirit that enables you not only to accept them
cheerfully but to minimise their magnitude.

Make light of your troubles, belittle your trials, and you will
help vitally to build up within your organization an esprit whose
value in time of stress cannot be measured.

Moral force is the third element in gaining moral ascendancy. To
exert moral force you must live clean, you must have sufficient
brain power to see the right and the will to do right.

Be an example to your men. An officer can be a power for good or
power for evil. Don&#8217;t preach to them - that will be worse than
useless. Live the kind of life you would have them lead, and you
will be surprised to see the number that will imitate you.

A loud-mouthed, profane captain who is careless of his personal
appearance will have a loud mouthed, profane, dirty company.
Remember what I tell you. Your company will be the reflection of
yourself. If you have a rotten company it will be because you are
a rotten captain.

Self sacrifice is essential to leadership. You will give, give
all the time. You will give of yourself physically, for the
longest hours, the hardest work and the greatest responsibility
is the lot of the captain. He is the first man up in the morning
and the last man in at night. He works while others sleep.

You will give of yourself mentally, in sympathy and appreciation
for the troubles of men in your charge. This one&#8217;s mother has
died, and that one has lost all his savings in a bank failure.
They may desire help, but more than anything else they desire
sympathy.

Don&#8217;t make the mistake of turning such men down with the
statement that you have troubles of your own, for every time that
you do you knock a stone out of the foundation of your house.
Your men are your foundation, and your house leadership will
tumble about your ears unless it rests securely upon them.

Finally, you will give of your own slender financial resources.
You will frequently spend your money to conserve the health or
well being of your men or to assist them when in trouble.
Generally you get your money back. Very infrequently you must
charge it to profit and loss.

When I say that paternalism is essential to leadership I use the
term in its better sense. I do not now refer to that form of
paternalism which robs men of initiative, self-reliance, and
self- respect. I refer to the paternalism that manifests itself
in a watchful care for the comfort and welfare of those in your
charge.

Soldiers are much like children. You must see that they have
shelter, food, and clothing, the best that your utmost efforts
can provide. You must be far more solicitous of their comfort
than of your own. You must see that they have food to eat before
you think of your own, that they have each as good a bed as can
be provided before you consider where you will sleep. You must
look after their health. You must conserve their strength by not
demanding needless exertion or useless labour.

And by doing all these things you are breathing life into what
would be otherwise a mere machine. You are creating a soul in
your organization that will make the mass respond to you as
though it were one man. And that is esprit.

And when your organization has this esprit you will wake up some
morning and discover that the tables have been turned; that
instead of your constantly looking out for them they have,
without even a hint from you, taken up the task of looking out
for you. You will find that a detail is always there to see that
your tent, if you have one, is promptly pitched, that the most
and the cleanest bedding is brought to your tent; that from some
mysterious source two eggs have been added to your supper when no
one else has any, that an extra man is helping your men give your
horse a super grooming, that your wishes are anticipated, that
every man is Johnny-on-the-spot. And then you have arrived.

Fairness is another element without which leadership can neither
be built up nor maintained. There must be first that fairness
which treats all men justly. I do not say alike, for you cannot
treat all men alike - that would be assuming that all men are cut
from the same piece; that there is no such thing as individuality
or a personal equation.

You cannot treat all men alike; a punishment that would be
dismissed by one man with a shrug of the shoulders is mental
anguish for another. A company commander, who for a given offence
has a standard punishment that applies to all is either too
indolent or too stupid to study the personality of his men. In
his case justice is certainly blind.

Study your men as carefully as a surgeon studied a difficult
case. And when you are sure of your diagnosis apply the remedy.
And remember that you apply the remedy to effect a cure, not
merely to see the victim squirm. It may be necessary cut deep,
but when you are satisfied as to your diagnosis don&#8217;t be divided
from your purpose by any false sympathy for the patient.

Hand in band with fairness in awarding punishment walks fairness
in giving credit. Everybody hates a human hog.
When one of your men has accomplished an especially creditable
piece of work, see that he gets the proper reward. Turn heaven
and earth upside down to get it for him. Don&#8217;t try to take it
away from him and hog it for yourself. You may do this and get
away with it, but you have lost the respect and loyalty of your
men. Sooner or later your brother officers will hear of it and
shun you like a leper. In war there is glory enough for all. Give
the man under you his due. The man who always takes and never
gives is not a leader. He is a parasite.

There is another kind of fairness - that which will prevent an
officer from abusing the privileges of his rank - when you exact
respect from soldiers be sure you treat them with equal respect.
Build up their manhood and self-respect - don&#8217;t try to pull it
down.

For an officer to be overbearing and insulting in the treatment
of enlisted men is the act of a coward. He ties the man to a tree
with the rope of discipline and then strikes him in the face,
knowing full well that the man cannot strike back.

Consideration, courtesy, and respect from officers towards
enlisted men are not incompatible with discipline. They are parts
of our discipline. Without initiative and decision no man can
expect to lead.

In manoeuvres you will frequently see, when an emergency arises,
certain men calmly give instant orders which later, on analysis,
prove to be, if not exactly the right thing, very nearly the
right thing to have done. You will see other men in emergency
become badly rattled; their brains refuse to work, or they give a
hasty order, revoke it; give another, revoke that; in short, show
every indication of being in a blue funk.

Regarding the first man you may say &#8220;That man is a genius. He
hasn&#8217;t had time to reason this thing out. He acts intuitively&#8221;.

Forget it.

&#8220;Genius is merely the capacity for taking infinite pains&#8221;.

The man who was ready is the man who has prepared himself. He has
studied beforehand the possible situation that might arise, he
has made tentative plans covering such situations. When he is
confronted by the emergency he is ready to meet it.

He must have sufficient mental alertness to appreciate the
problem that confronts him and the power of quick reasoning to
determine what changes are necessary in his already formulated
plan. He must have also the decision to order the execution and
stick to his orders.

Any reasonable order in an emergency is better than no order. The
situation is there. Meet it. It is better to do something and do
the wrong thing than to hesitate, hunt around for the right thing
to do and wind up by doing nothing at all. And, having decided on
a line of action, stick to it. Don&#8217;t vacillate. Men have no
confidence in an officer who doesn't&#8217;t know his own mind.

Occasionally you will be called upon to meet a situation which no
reasonable human being could anticipate. If you have prepared
yourself to meet other emergencies which you could anticipate the
mental training you have thereby gained will enable you to act
promptly and with calmness.

You must frequently act without orders from higher authority.
Time will not permit you to wait for them. Here again enters the
importance of studying the work of officers above you. If you
have a comprehensive grasp of the entire situation and can form
an idea of the general plan of your superiors, that and your
previous emergency training will enable you to determine that the
responsibility is yours and to issue the necessary orders without
delay.

The element of personal dignity is important in military
leadership. Be the friend of your men, but do not become their
intimate. Your men should stand in awe of you - not fear. If your
men presume to become familiar it is your fault, not theirs. Your
actions have encouraged them to do so.

And, above all things, don&#8217;t cheapen yourself by courting their
friendship or currying their favour. They will despise you for
it. If you are worthy of their loyalty and respect and devotion
they will surely give all these without asking. If you are not,
nothing that you can do will win them.

And then I would mention courage. Moral courage you need as well
as physical courage- that kind of moral courage which enables you
to adhere without faltering to a determined course of action
which your judgement has indicated as the one best suited to
secure the desired results.

Every time you change your orders without obvious reason you
weaken your authority and impair the confidence of your men. Have
the moral courage to stand by your order and see it through.

Moral courage further demands that you assume the responsibility
for your own acts. If your subordinates have loyally carried out
your orders and the movement you directed is a failure, the
failure is yours, not theirs. Yours would have been the honour
had it been successful. Take the blame if it results in disaster.
Don&#8217;t try to shift it to a subordinate and make him the goat.
That is a cowardly act.

Furthermore you will need moral courage to determine the fate of
those under you. You will frequently be called upon for
recommendations for the promotion or demotion of officers and
non-commissioned officers in your immediate command.

Keep clearly in mind your personal integrity and the duty you owe
your country. Do not let yourself be deflected from a strict
sense of justice by feelings of personal friendship. If your own
brother is your second lieutenant, and you find him unfit to hold
his commission, eliminate him. If you don&#8217;t, your lack of moral
courage may result in the loss of valuable lives.

If, on the other hand, you are called upon for a recommendation
concerning a man whom, for personal reasons you thoroughly
dislike, do not fail to do him full justice. Remember that your
aim is the general good, not the satisfaction of an individual
grudge.

I am taking it for granted that you have physical courage. I need
not tell you how necessary that is. Courage is more than bravery.
Bravery is fearlessness - the absence of fear. The nearest dolt
may be brave, because he lacks the mentality to appreciate his
danger; he does&#8217;t know enough to be afraid.

Courage, however, is that firmness of spirit, that moral
backbone, which, while fully appreciating the danger involved,
nevertheless goes on with the undertaking. Bravery is physical;
courage is mental and moral. You may be cold all over, your hands
may tremble; your legs may quake; your knees be ready to give
way - that is fear. If, nevertheless, you go forward; if in spite
of this physical defection you continue to lead your men against
the enemy, you have courage.

All physical manifestations of fear will pass away. You may never
experience them but once. They are the &#8220;buck fever&#8221; of the hunter
who tries to shoot his first deer. You must not give way to them.

A number of years ago, while taking a course in demolitions, the
class of which I was a member was handling dynamite. The
instructor said regarding its manipulation &#8220;I must caution you
gentlemen to be careful in the use of these explosives. One man
has but one accident.&#8221; And so I would caution you. If you give
way to the fear that will doubtless beset you in your first
action, if you show the white feather, if you let your men go
forward while you hunt a shell crater, you will never again have
the opportunity of leading those men.

Use judgement in calling on your men for display of physical
courage or bravery. Don&#8217;t ask any man to go where you would not
go yourself. If your common sense tells you that the place is too
dangerous for you to venture into; then it is too dangerous for
him. You know his life is as valuable to him as yours is to you.

Occasionally some of your men must be exposed to danger which you
cannot share. A message must be taken across a fire-swept zone.
You call for volunteers. If your men know you and know that you
are &#8216;right&#8217; you will never lack volunteers, for they will know
your heart is in your work, that you are giving your country the
best you have; that you would willingly carry the message
yourself if you could. Your example and enthusiasm will have
inspired them.

And lastly, if you aspire to leadership, I would urge you to
study men. Get under their skins and find out what is inside.
Some men are quite different from what they appear to be on the
surface. Determine the workings of their minds.

Much of General Robert E. Lee&#8217;s success as a leader may be
ascribed to his ability as a psychologist. He knew most of his
opponents from West Point days, knew the workings of their minds,
and he believed that they would do certain things under certain
circumstances. In nearly every case he was able to anticipate
their movements and block the execution.

You do not know your opponent in this war in the same way. But
you can know your own men. You can study each to determine
wherein lies his strength and his weakness; which man can be
relied upon to the last gasp and which cannot.

~~~~~~~

The document I have ends here, though it looks like perhaps there
should be a little more to it.

A note attached to the copy I have reads :
"C. A. Bach enlisted in the Thirteenth Minnesota Infantry of the
National Guard and served as a sergeant with the regiment in the
Philippines. Promoted to a Lieutenancy in the Thirty-sixth US
volunteer Infantry, he transferred in the Regular Establishment
as a first lieutenant in the Seventh Cavalry and advanced therein
to his majority.

His analysis of how to be a leader &#8211; an address delivered to the
graduating officers of the Second Training Camp at Fort
Sheridan - so moved the Reserve officers of his battalion, that
they besieged him for copies. The Waco (Texas) &#8216;Daily Times
Herald&#8217;, learning of the great interest the speech had aroused,
obtained a copy and printed it verbatim in January 1918.

A copy of the speech was inserted in the Congressional Record by
Senator Henrik Shipstead of Minnesota in November 1942, and
printed as Congressional Document 289. All of us who were NROTC
students at the University of Washington in 1943 were given
copies and, since the document is no longer in print, may I urge
you to reprint, in its entirety, what is generally regarded as
the best composition on &#8216;Leadership&#8217; ever recorded?&#8221;

I received this document from a Warrant Officer with whom I
served, W.O Brian Reid, one who also ended up getting a
commission as a Squadron Leader, and became the T.O of RNZAF base
Wigram shortly before it was closed for flying duties.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 00:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 23:21:03 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420000950.04392b20@rollanet.org>

>
>
>That's why I've always found emphasis on democracy to be more than a
>little foolish.  Certainly, it appears that democracy has the best
>chance of ensuring liberty--but it is just as capable of ensuring
>tyranny.  I don't care who rules or how, so long as I am free.  If a
>king, an emperor or the Great Purple Poobah of Penglesh ensures my
>liberties, I'll quite happily be a subject.

"In contradiction," answered signor Ottaviano, "I will deploy just one 
argument, namely, that there only three forms of sound government: 
monarchy, the rule of the good (in the ancient world called the optimates) 
and government by the citizens. And the degenerate and lawless forms taken 
by these systems when they are ruined and corrupted are, in place of 
monarchy, tyranny, in place of the best, government by a few powerful men, 
and in place of the citizens, government by the common people, which wrecks 
the constitution and surrenders complete power to the control of the multitude.

--excerpt from The Book of the Courtier (1528) by Baldesar Castiglione
translated 1967 by George Bull

It's an old debate.


--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 00:23:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 23:23:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <B8E5C044.577B2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420003838.0435ca70@rollanet.org>

At 02:38 PM 4/19/02, you wrote:
>on 4/19/02 12:32 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> > or no reason for them to be grunts first?
> >
>
>The Air Force doesn't have 'grunts'.  Didn't you know that?  They have
>technicians (Excepting Para Rescue and a few other oddballs who'd probably
>be happier in the Army or Marines. :)
>
>--

They do have those base security teams that get a whopping whole two weeks 
of ground combat training. I've even heard that during some part of those 
two weeks the trainees actually sleep in real tents on the ground.


------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com

Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.

--John Ciardi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 03:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 20 02:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020420004404.79A6F279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16yrdg-0001rp-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

"Samuel Weiss" <samwise1@msn.com> wrote:

> Don't forge the influence of Rand on Libertarianism.
> And of course, don't forget that the current Libertarian party
> leadership fully believes in guilt by association. Consider the habits of Rand
>  and the later writings of Heinlein and then consider what they say about
> Libertarians.
 
I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and 
that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually 
fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine 
sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas 
all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.

Libertarianism is in itself an oddly changeable term.  It was 
originated in (IIRC) the first few decades of the 20th century (maybe 
the 1920s) as a name fo Anarchists that avoided the negative label.

By the 1960s and early 1970s is was a (by modern standards) 
fairly leftist organization that promoted ideas like legalized drugs 
and Milton Freidman's proposal for a negative income tax (a brilliant 
proposal that was deemed by the then libertarians to be both fair 
and as an excellent method for eliminating poverty).  In the late 
1970s and early 1980s the libertarian movement was transformed 
into an organization that had far more of a focus on cutting taxes 
and preserving private property rights at all costs, in essence it 
went from primarily promoting social changes to promoting 
economic ones.  Having talked to some older (and rather bitter 
libertarians, it seems clear that at least part of the change in the 
movement came from outsiders co-opting the party (although some 
of the change was also internal).  

ObTrav, in several hundred years it would be interesting to note 
how various organizations have changed. A Feudal Technocracy 
could easily go from being a technocratic meritocracy to being a 
static and rigid system of technological oriented castes and still 
maintain the same designation.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  

  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 06:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat Apr 20 05:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16yrdg-0001rp-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <003801c1e868$a68e21e0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of
sneadj@mindspring.com
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 02:58
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism


Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
eliminate poverty?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 08:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 20 07:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b@aol.com>

--part1_8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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> I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and 
> that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually 
> fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine 
> sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas 
> all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.

Heinlein was, by all accounts, a minarchist - he believed that
government was a necessary evil. Insofar as you can discover his
political stance from his writings he wasn't an anarchist at all (and
he *certainly* wasn't a fascist :-/). I think his political views were
built out of faith in the soldier's virtues, along with nostalgia for the
kind of Western-frontier society that was already dying out when
he was born.

Rand was actually not a libertarian, and held libertarians in disdain.
Mostly because the people using the label at the time were much
into legalizing narcotics, as you point out. I suppose you could
also call her a minarchist, although to be sure she arrived at that
position through some of the strangest ethical notions I've ever
come across. She did have one or two useful insights, but for the
most part she strikes me as the last and most vocal advocate for
Social Darwinism.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and 
<BR>&gt; that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually 
<BR>&gt; fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine 
<BR>&gt; sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas 
<BR>&gt; all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.
<BR>
<BR>Heinlein was, by all accounts, a minarchist - he believed that
<BR>government was a necessary evil. Insofar as you can discover his
<BR>political stance from his writings he wasn't an anarchist at all (and
<BR>he *certainly* wasn't a fascist :-/). I think his political views were
<BR>built out of faith in the soldier's virtues, along with nostalgia for the
<BR>kind of Western-frontier society that was already dying out when
<BR>he was born.
<BR>
<BR>Rand was actually not a libertarian, and held libertarians in disdain.
<BR>Mostly because the people using the label at the time were much
<BR>into legalizing narcotics, as you point out. I suppose you could
<BR>also call her a minarchist, although to be sure she arrived at that
<BR>position through some of the strangest ethical notions I've ever
<BR>come across. She did have one or two useful insights, but for the
<BR>most part she strikes me as the last and most vocal advocate for
<BR>Social Darwinism.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 08:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 20 07:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
Message-ID: <200204201431.EPV00623@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Frank Pitt
<snip long post>

The most important quality I saw that was necessary and often 
missing in officers was the ability to properly delegate.

This bit of advice comes down through history in the form of 
the world's first recorded advice from a father-in-law, from 
Jethro, to his son-in-law Moses.

If you can't delegate, you can't lead.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 09:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Apr 20 08:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freelance Traveller is now Fan Site of the Week at RPGNews!
Message-ID: <o913cukv513imfb9up0a45fmfejbbava7u@4ax.com>

I just checked the site (http://www.rpgnews.rpghost.com/fansite.php) and
Freelance Traveller is the featured site right now!

:)

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 10:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 20 09:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEHJGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420084435.009e89f0@mindspring.com>

At 07:40 PM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > From: Douglas Berry
> > No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!
>
>He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
>superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.
>
>What I want to know is:
>a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
>Science?

Mad Science, I'd say.. he seemed to be more the engineer type.

>b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?

Illuminati Univeristy.

>c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

Fnord.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 11:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sat Apr 20 10:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420003838.0435ca70@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <20020420171222.30654.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

> >
> >The Air Force doesn't have 'grunts'.  Didn't you
> know that? 
 Yes, I was using the term loosely in reference to
enlisted personnel.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 11:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Apr 20 10:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204201736.g3KHaCP25223@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 00:08:07 +1200
>Subject: Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
...
>>   I'm almost of the opinion that officers 
>> > > should be enlisted first
>> Amen to that. Was it ever like that though?
>
>Not that I know of. 

  Arguably this applied in certain periods of 
Roman history, and perhaps in some other classical
armies (where maybe only members of the right
classes might act as commanders, but far from all
of those eligible would fight except as ordinary
soldiers).

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 12:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Apr 20 11:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>
References: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3cc06819.475761@post.demon.co.uk>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:

>     Specifically, I'm interested in TO&Es from the turn of the last=20
>century, say the 1905/Russo-Japanese War to 1918/Great War range.  This=20
>implies large squad automatic weapons, clunky AFVs, and early combat=20
>aircraft.

No on-line sources, I'm afraid, but my copy of the World War One
Sourcebook ISBN 1-85409-351-7 has lots of the information you're
looking for.  As an example, this is the TO&E of a British Infantry
division in 1918:

Three infantry brigades, each comprising three battalions and a trench
mortar battery. (so 9 infantry battalions and 3 mortar batteries
total).

The platoon was the basic manoeuvre unit.  It was divided into 4
sections (with 6-10 people each) plus a light machine gun section
(Lewis guns) and headquarters section (officer, NCO, 2 runners).  One
of the infantry sections was made up of specially-trained bombers
(grenadiers).

=46our platoons plus a headquarters unit made up a rifle company.

=46our companies plus an HQ unit made up a battalion.  Earlier in the
war the battalion HQ unit included a heavy machine gun section
(Vickers); these guns were later withdrawn and concentrated at
divisional level.  A battalion was nominally 977 rifles, 36 Lewis
guns.

It was standard practice for a battalion to leave behind a cadre of
troops before going into action (the "battle surplus") so the unit
could be rebuilt if it suffered major losses.

Three battallions made up an infantry brigade.  By 1918, a brigade
also included a trench mortar battery (eight 3" mortars each).

Three brigades made up a division.  (ie, 9 infantry battalions).

The division also included the following support elements:

Artillery: Two artillery brigades, with a total of six field batteries
(six 18-pounder guns each) and two howitzer batteries (six 4.5"
howitzers each).
(Earlier in the war divisions had more artillery, this was later
concentrated at corps and army level).

Two batteries (six 2" mortars each) of trench mortars.
One battalion (4 companies) of heavy machine guns. (each company with
16 Vickers guns, 64 total)

Three companies of engineers. (each with 217 men, 18 vehicles, 33
bicycles and a pontoon)
One battalion of pioneers.

Staff, signals company, three field hospitals, 21 motor ambulances,
veterinary section, employment company, divisional train (four
companies), ammunition column.
A division had 822 vehicles including 44 motorcycles and 11 motor
cars.  And, presumably, lots of horses.

Divisions were organised into corps, usually of two divisions.  Four
or five corps made up an army.

Tanks were organised into brigades, each of two battalions.  A
battalion (36 tanks) was made up of three companies, each divided into
three 4-tank sections.  Each company also had a "spare section" of 4
tanks in reserve.

Aircraft were attached at corps or army level for reconnaissance and
artillery spotting duties.


Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 12:31:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 20 11:31:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <200204201431.EPV00623@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E701D4.5797E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/20/02 7:31 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> The most important quality I saw that was necessary and often
> missing in officers was the ability to properly delegate.
> 

A problem not restricted to them either.  I sometimes wonder if the
anti-officer bias here comes from the fact that most of the prior service
were enlisted.  I've seen it from both sides.  I've seen my share of idiot
NCOs and some highly stracked Officers.  And the reverse.  I personally
don't see any great advantage in officers having served as enlisted first.

I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me with a special
insight when I had my own platoon.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 13:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat Apr 20 12:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] travlib 0.6.2
Message-ID: <20020420130659.A28851@4dv.net>

This is a message for the programmers on the list.  If you're not a
programmer, I doubt that this will be of much interest to you.

Well, once again it's time to announce another subminor release of
travlib.  This release is in many ways an aesthetic release, as
attractive code is invariably better than ugly code.  Indeed, the
corrections were inspired by mass lossage in certain parts of what I
had written.  The code base has been shrunk to 10,504 LOC, down from,
IIRC some 12-15 KLOC.  A smaller code base is a more maintainable code
base.

The most visible two correction are the regularising of both
constructor return types and the manner in which children of an object
are accessed.  As for the first, every _new() now returns a
TravMapobject*.  This is much more like the standard gtk+ way of doing
things than before, and is considerably simpler from a user
perspective.

Regarding the second, the correct way to access the children of an
object is to call trav_mapobject_get_children(),
trav_mapobject_set_children(), trav_mapobject_add_child() and
trav_mapobject_remove_child().  No more messing with
trav_galaxy_get_sectors(), trav_sector_add_subsector(),
trav_planet_set_moons() &c.  These are all logically related
activities, and it makes sense that a single suite of functions be
used.  I am going to add trav_mapobject_add_children() and
trav_mapobject_remove_children() eventually.

A side effect of this is that the children of e.g. a star are its
planets and its companion stars, and that the children of a planet are
its governments and moons.  The user can either call
trav_mapobject_get_children() and filter them on his own, or call the
appropriate class-level function.  In these cases they'd be,
respectively, trav_non_dwarf_star_get_planets(),
trav_star_get_companions(), trav_planetary_object_get_governments()
and trav_planet_get_moons().  Note that not all of these have been
written.

There has also been some slight progress with the Scheme GURPS
Traveller: First In object generation.  Nothing major yet, as
travtrack really needs to be in a more advanced state for generation
to be testable/usable &c.

On the travtrack front, I am busily working away on the galaxy and
sector browsers.  I've created a GenericBrowser base class which is
working pretty decently so far, and is much better than my old ad hoc
nonsense.  These changes are all in CVS; they've yet to be released.

The website, as ever, is <http://travtrack.sf.net/>.  If you just wish
to download files, I'd suggest <http://sf.net/projects/travtrack/>.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe
what you just said.                           --William F. Buckley, Jr.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 13:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Apr 20 12:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
References: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8e76dfb3ac3@[198.123.22.170]>

At 12:34 PM +1000 4/20/02, Alan Bradley wrote:
>  > From: Douglas Berry
>>  No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!
>
>He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
>superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.
>
>What I want to know is:
>a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
>Science?
>b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?

Illuminati University of course....

>c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

If you have to ask, you wouldn't survive....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Apr 20 13:11:02 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420000950.04392b20@rollanet.org>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420000950.04392b20@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <3cc1ca9e.6194791@post.demon.co.uk>

Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org> writes:

>--excerpt from The Book of the Courtier (1528) by Baldesar Castiglione
>translated 1967 by George Bull
>
>It's an old debate.

Even older than that, since Castiglione was simply paraphrasing
Aristotle's 'Politics' written in about 340 BC...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 14:13:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 20 13:13:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
Message-ID: <200204202010.EQF02707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>
>I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me 
>with a special insight when I had my own platoon.
>

I think it's better to find out that someone can't delegate 
when they're an NCO (or even a corporal) rather then after we 
waste the money to make them an officer.

Of course, I don't believe that leadership can be "taught".  
Talent in this area can be nurtured, grown, and refined, but 
never "taught".  If you can't lead or delegate to begin with, 
no amount of training is going to make a difference.

One other area of "talent" that isn't easily remedied by 
training - tactical ability, and an ability to implement that 
tactical brilliance in your platoon. All platoon drills 
aside -- can you and your men really fight?  I remember 
watching platoons turning into indecisive, sleep-deprived 
zombies because no one in the chain of command, officer or 
nco, could get it all together.  There's nothing more 
unnerving to me than watching a platoon in training mill 
around in my scope when a few of them are hit with MILES 
gear.  Watching the men peep their heads in and out of the 
woodline like idiots.  Officers and NCOs scratching their 
heads and having a committee meeting to decide what to do.  I 
even remember a fat platoon sergeant ambling out into the 
open, looking up and down the danger space, trying to figure 
out where I was.

Not all platoons were this bad, thank God.  But there were 
some like that.  And I put the blame not only on the LT, but 
on the NCOs in the platoon.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 16:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 20 15:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
Message-ID: <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>

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   Hi,
   Looking for alien stats for Traveller (CT/MT) the other day on the WWWeb, 
I ran across a pretty extensive (and frankly, kind of frightening as well) 
list of Traveller-related aliens, and was wondering if folks might be able to 
help me out with stats for several species that looked pretty interesting. 
   Adduxar: Carnivorous reptilians from the Zhodani book.
   Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.
   Brinn: Spider/Crablike mix from TravDigest 12.
   Ebokin: An Octopoid from The Traveller Adventure.
   Sambiqys: Red-zoned Androids from JTAS 24.
   Murians: Stocky and hirsuite from Vanguard Reaches.

   Now I'm not looking for a huge writeup or career tables or anything like 
that; merely the information on rolling up the creature's stats (+any natural 
armor or natural weapons)
   Thanks in advance :)
   Boy, if BITS or someone knocked out a 101 Aliens that'd be compatible with 
CT/MT, I know I'D sure buy it  :)

  -Ken Murphy-
   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Looking for alien stats for Traveller (CT/MT) the other day on the WWWeb, I ran across a pretty extensive (and frankly, kind of frightening as well) list of Traveller-related aliens, and was wondering if folks might be able to help me out with stats for several species that looked pretty interesting. 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Adduxar: Carnivorous reptilians from the Zhodani book.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Brinn: Spider/Crablike mix from TravDigest 12.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Ebokin: An Octopoid from The Traveller Adventure.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Sambiqys: Red-zoned Androids from JTAS 24.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Murians: Stocky and hirsuite from Vanguard Reaches.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Now I'm not looking for a huge writeup or career tables or anything like that; merely the information on rolling up the creature's stats (+any natural armor or natural weapons)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks in advance :)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Boy, if BITS or someone knocked out a 101 Aliens that'd be compatible with CT/MT, I know I'D sure buy it &nbsp;:)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 18:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat Apr 20 17:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>

This from the JTAS Online article:

Jgd in Play
Jgd should only be played and handled as NPCs; in the unlikely event of any
PC interacting with one on a personal, violent level, a typical specimen has
ST 12, DX 10, IQ 12, and HT 12/25. Their tough outer integument gives them
PD 2 and DR 5, and they can have a Move and Dodge of about 4. Their internal
gas-bags make them highly vulnerable to penetrating attacks under some
circumstances, but their internal structures are complex and robust; they
never simply "burst."

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of MurfNMurf@aol.com


  Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.

  Now I'm not looking for a huge writeup or career tables or anything like
that; merely the information on rolling up the creature's stats (+any
natural armor or natural weapons)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 18:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 20 17:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] living space
Message-ID: <200204210036.EQN01344@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Just comparing a recent ship design of mine to a current 
nuclear submarine.

It looks like a modern nuclear submarine allocates far, far 
less living space that we allocate in Traveller.  In what 
appears to be the same length of hull (length of living 
quarters space), with a known beam (10 meters in the case of 
the sub, 20 meters in the case of the Traveller ship).

In roughly 176 Traveller displacement tons, the sub has over 
129 crew.  And this is being generous: part of this space is 
taken up by bridge and torpedo tubes.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 18:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr 20 17:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net>

Swordy wrote:
> Jgd should only be played and handled as NPCs;

<rant>
What?  Why should *any* character be restricted to "GM only"?  Yes, I
do include the Emperor here, having played in a campaign which had PCs
of about the same level of power.  This seems to make rather gross
assumptions about what sort of games people are playing.  I suppose
the article didn't bother to give much in the way of game information
for this race, on the pretext that "players won't ever need it".

This is one of my particular peeves: an artificial division of
characters or character types into "PC" and "NPC" is bad enough in a
lot of roleplaying games, but assigning whole *races* to "NPC only" is
just really too much.
</rant>

What unusual type of characters have other players run?

I remember having a lot of fun playing a non-sentient ship's computer
through one adventure.  It was very highly complex, and a source of
surprise to some of the other characters, but didn't have a sense of
"self" at all.

In a fantasy game, I once played a short-lived spirit for a few hours,
while my other involved character was unconscious and dying.  It was
then woven into a spell cast by one of the other characters -- in fact
the very spell that restored my original character to health.

I designed a hive-mind character for another game, an agglomeration of
dozens of individually subsentient creatures about the size of a rat,
but the GM moved away just before that game started.


So as you can imagine, an admonition that "Thou Shalt Not Play Jgd
Characters" isn't likely to sit well with me at all.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 19:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Sat Apr 20 18:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freelance Traveller is now Fan Site of the Week at RPGNews!
In-Reply-To: <o913cukv513imfb9up0a45fmfejbbava7u@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3CC1E030.30576.5FA9886@localhost>

Congrats!

Rob

On 20 Apr 2002 at 11:13, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> I just checked the site (http://www.rpgnews.rpghost.com/fansite.php) and
> Freelance Traveller is the featured site right now!
> 
> :)
> 
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

--
Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
 Spero nos familiares mansuros.
 I hope we'll still be friends.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 21:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Apr 20 20:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 21 Apr 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <jga4cuscmeas4pgo3jqh9sm37lpbf0dttu@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - A day or thereabouts after we posted the last update, we spotted that a
   whole bunch of stuff showed up corrupted - nothing fatal, but not a
   happy-making state of affairs. It's taken most of the past two weeks to
   find and fix the problems. We know how it happened; complaints have been
   made to the appropriate quarters. Apologies for any problems or
   awkwardnesses encountered because of this. 

 - Michl Hughes brings us a quick and easy method for creating TNS news
   items. You can read about it in Doing It My Way. 

 - Freelance Traveller has been selected as the RPGNews.com Fan Site of the
   Week. We're massively flattered - but it's you, the people who have
   supported our continuing efforts, that are deserving of accolades;
   without you, we wouldn't have survived. (We looked at RPGNews.com and
   are very impressed - if you're interested in multiple systems and
   settings, not just Traveller, this is a good place to start!) 

 - Michl Hughes also profiles Calypso McArthur, an ex-freedom fighter now
   scouting or the Imperium. You can meet McArthur in Up Close and
   Personal. 

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the (working!) feedback form at
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/infocenter/feedbackform.html.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to visit our site
and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our existence
possible.




Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 22:03:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 20 21:03:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>

At 11:50 AM 4/21/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Swordy wrote:
> > Jgd should only be played and handled as NPCs;
>
><rant>
>What?  Why should *any* character be restricted to "GM only"?


Because in this case the Jgd exist only in gas giant atmospheres, are 
completely unfathomable to humans, and have no real motivations that humans 
can figure out.

Playing a group of 10 meter spheres that die quickly on most Imperial 
worlds and are allergic to jump would be a bit boring.

Any it says "should," not "must."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com> <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com> <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020421150430.A6895@freeman.little-possums.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Because in this case the Jgd exist only in gas giant atmospheres,
> are completely unfathomable to humans, and have no real motivations
> that humans can figure out.

Sounds not too much unlike some people I've known :)

But seriously, I don't see anything there that makes them more
suitable as NPC material than as PC.


> Playing a group of 10 meter spheres that die quickly on most
> Imperial worlds and are allergic to jump would be a bit boring.

Doesn't sound too bad to me.  Besides, if they're suitable as an NPC
race, why aren't they suitable as PCs?  If they're boring for players
to run, presumably they're just as boring for the GM.  If they're
incomprehensible for players, they're just as incomprehensible for the
GM.


> Any it says "should," not "must."

True, although the distinction is rather slight in modern English.
Both express an obligation in that context, and usually a *moral*
obligation.  I deny that any such obligation applies.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:08:04 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006601c1e8f2$fae49aa0$1db18b90@computer>

Forwarded by: Richard Wilson
> "In contradiction," answered signor Ottaviano, "I will deploy just one
> argument, namely, that there only three forms of sound government:
> monarchy, the rule of the good (in the ancient world called the optimates)
> and government by the citizens. And the degenerate and lawless forms taken
> by these systems when they are ruined and corrupted are, in place of
> monarchy, tyranny, in place of the best, government by a few powerful men,
> and in place of the citizens, government by the common people, which
> wrecks the constitution and surrenders complete power to the control of
> the multitude.

The three 'sound' forms listed are:
monarchy
narrow oligarchy (aristocracy, I guess)
broad oligarchy

The 'degenerate and lawless' forms are:
tyranny
narrow oligarchy(!)
democracy

There isn't really much to say here.  Signor Ottaviano clearly believes
oligarchy is superior to democracy, and who are we to argue?

Tyranny is a much-maligned form of government, I might add.  In real terms,
it's simply an "illegitimate" form of monarchy.  It got its bad name due to
the fact that it usually involved aristocratic factions repressing and
driving out their rivals.  Worse, sometimes the tyrants would seek support
amongst the common rabble, rather than amongst the good, the wise and the
pious.  You know, some of these evil b*st*rds actually tried to engage in
land reform?  The worst of them were in Sparta, where they tried to extend
the franchise!  Imagine that - all those centuries of Spartan discipline
being watered down, just because some brainiac thinks that it's a bad thing
that Sparta can't actually put an effective army in the field any more!

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:10:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>

> From: Stephen Tempest
> Three battallions made up an infantry brigade.  By 1918, a brigade
> also included a trench mortar battery (eight 3" mortars each).
>
> Three brigades made up a division.  (ie, 9 infantry battalions).

The Australian army in WWI used four battalion infantry brigades.  Cavalry
brigades were three regiments (battalions) per brigade.  I'm pretty sure
this was British practice, too.  It's possible that things might have
changed in the British army by 1918 though.  The site below is interesting,
although not detailed past the battalion level:

http://www.adfa.edu.au/~rmallett/

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20420.212115.7V6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
> ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
> Sorry to take up space with this.
>
> Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in stand=
> ard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I have wrong=
> ?

See below. You are sending html to the list. Check this url for info on
how to not do so:

	http://expita.com/nomime.html

Basicly, if your editor is *giving* you a font choice for a post to a
newsgroup or mailing list, it's either misconfigured or broken.

> Sam
>
> ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <HTML><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff" STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"=
>><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Sorry to take up space with this.</DIV> <DIV>&nbs=
> p;</DIV> <DIV>Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was=
>  sent in standard format. I use arial as my font.<FONT color=3D#000000>&n=
> bsp;What other setting&nbsp;might I have wrong?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;<=
> /DIV> <DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
> ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0--
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 01:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 00:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20420.223657.0H4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Okay, I think this may be pretty complicated, and I wouldn't be surprised if 
> the answer is "Can't be done" or "Too hard" or "Go pick up a $200 Orbital 
> Dyanmics Textbook and figure it out..."
>
> But...
>
> ...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of 
> a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system from above, and the 
> primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital parameters of the planet (orbital 
> radius, eccentricity, orbital speed, reference point, etc) and the date.
>
> I'd actually like to be able to do this for _the_ solar system, that is 
> enter 
> "Nov 16 1969" and be able to plot where the planets are on X,Y paper.
>
> Now, I know that there are comercial astronomy programs (Red Shifft, etc) 
> that can do this sort of thing...but I need to try and build this into a 
> different program, so I gotta write the algorithm myself.

A couple of books I have:

Astronomy on the Personal Computer
Oliver Montenbruck & Thomas Pfleger
ISBN: 3-540-63521-1

Practical astronomy with your Personal Computer
Peter Duffet-Smith

I don't have the ISBN on that one as I have the version for calculators.

The first book even includes a disk with source code.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 01:20:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 00:20:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20420.230402.9D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
>> HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
>> during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
>> entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
>> stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
>> have they discovered in regards to this test?

For that matter, if they *did* wind up hundreds or thousands of parsecs
away, how would the folks back at the research station ever find out?

Assuming you could build a transmitter powerful enough, it takes 326
years for a radio (or laser) signal to cross 100 parsecs. So if you
can't get back on your own, nobody will ever know. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 01:23:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 00:23:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020419202918.31056.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20420.230829.0o4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> --- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
>> Paul Walker writes:
>> > 
>> > If this is the case, what would happen if there
>> were a
>> > HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump
>> (or
>> > during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
>> > entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
>> > stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
>> > have they discovered in regards to this test?
>> 
>> I wouldn't recommend engaging a jump drive while
>> sitting in the hold of a
>> ship already in jump-space. As far as the results of
>> such an event, I would
>> assume a 99.9% chance of a catastrophic catastrophy.
>> Perhaps there'd be a One in a Trillion chance that
>> the ship would end up
>> 300,000 LY away in the Andromeda Galaxy (or at the
>> exit 13A Toll Plaza on
>> the NJ Turnpike for that matter).
>
> But why?  This is the second reply I got that said it
> would be a bad thing and would probably destroy all
> ships involved.  Is there any support for this?  I'm
> not opposed to non OTU, but my original question was
> whether there was anything in the official rules
> and/or history to support or prevent such occurances?

ASs I recall, Marc Miller has stated that all that's known about
attempts to engage a jump drive of a vessel inside a ship ythat's
already in jump is that nobody who planned to try it has ever been
heard from again. 

So either both ships were destroyed or they would up too far away to
get back.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC32DFD.4695.111623B@localhost>

On 19 Apr 2002 at 12:32, Daniel Tackett wrote:

> .
> > 
> > Pilots are made into officers for reasons of
> > tradition and there's no 
> > real reason for them to be, no matter what they
> > might say on this.
> > 
> Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> or no reason for them to be grunts first?

No reason for pilots to be officers. In WWI & WWII the pilots who were 
NCOs did just fine. IIRC Chuck Yeager was a Sergeant for WWII and a 
while after.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC32FBD.15769.11838CB@localhost>

On 19 Apr 2002 at 15:35, Michael Cessna wrote:

>   Pilots are officers because the military does not
> want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
> though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
> the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
> arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
> that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
> wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
> why........

But they're okay with NCOs (sometimes JNCOs) driving/commanding over 50 
tons of AFV, or operating anti-shipping missiles. Yep. Makes sense (I'm 
sure it must do somewhere or when).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <B8E701D4.5797E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204201431.EPV00623@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC3359D.13137.12F2A22@localhost>

On 20 Apr 2002 at 11:30, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me with a
> special insight when I had my own platoon. 

My reasoning for it is quite simple - having had to lug the sections MG 
through the bush and mud for several weeks gives a person a much better 
idea of just how much more those extra pounds slow and tire a person 
compared with a normal load. Also it would act as a weeding out process 
for some of those who thought it would be fun and games, and look good 
on their CV. I'd want at least a year, preferably two and ideally you 
wouldn't be able to do the actual officer selection until after that 
time (to help stop any favouritism), though in the real world that 
wouldn't work because very few of the sort of people you want would be 
willing to gamble with two years of their life like that.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:59:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:59:30 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <200204201736.g3KHaCP25223@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3CC3359C.14671.12F2926@localhost>

On 20 Apr 2002 at 10:34, Steven Hudson wrote:

>   Arguably this applied in certain periods of 
> Roman history, and perhaps in some other classical
> armies (where maybe only members of the right
> classes might act as commanders, but far from all
> of those eligible would fight except as ordinary
> soldiers).

True. And in theory the Athens so famour for its democracy didn't have 
an officer class/caste, etc. However in practice only those born of 
wealthy and influential families would be appointed, as with Rome 
(which is why I said there weren't any I knew of).

However it's probably worth noting that in these armies (especially the 
Roman one of the late Republic and early Empire) most of the positions 
we'd consider appropriate for officers were filled by Centurions and 
their superiors, all of whom were 'from the ranks'. There were officers 
above them who weren't from the ranks, but they were few and far 
between (I seem to recall there being none until Legion level, at which 
point there was the CO and several 'staff officers', etc.). Of course 
the rank structure was quite flat by modern western standards, too.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 04:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 03:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <200204202010.EQF02707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC33777.7691.136689C@localhost>

On 20 Apr 2002 at 16:10, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Not all platoons were this bad, thank God.  But there were 
> some like that.  And I put the blame not only on the LT, but 
> on the NCOs in the platoon.

For sure. When a platoon's that bad the OC _and_ the NCOs (all of them) 
need to be hauled over the coals. If that doesn't work send 'em down 
the road - a sideways 'promtion' is a really bad idea - some other poor 
sods might be so unlucky as to be under them when it goes to custard 
someday.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 05:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sun Apr 21 04:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3CC344CF.2707.70F26D@localhost>

On 21 Apr 2002, at 15:11, Alan Bradley wrote:

> The Australian army in WWI used four battalion infantry brigades.  Cavalry
> brigades were three regiments (battalions) per brigade.  I'm pretty sure
> this was British practice, too.  It's possible that things might have
> changed in the British army by 1918 though.  The site below is interesting,
> although not detailed past the battalion level:

At the outbreak of the 1st WW the standard European infantry 
division consisted of two brigades each of two 3 battalion regiments 
(thus giving 12 battalions). The British (and consequently Dominion 
and Empire troops) used a slightly modifed TOE with three 4 
battalion brigades to a division, also giving 12 battalions (BTW the 
Russians used two brigades each with two 4 battalion regiments 
for a total of 16 battalions). This is the classic "square" division

Between 1916 and 1917, the high level of attrition and need for 
further maneuver formations lead to the Germans and French 
changing to divisions consisting of three 3 battalion regiments for a 
total of 9 battalions (this is the now standard "trianglar" division). 
This was initially done simply to get more divisions out of the same 
number of battalions (they lacked the manpower to form new 
battalions), however it was found that the change actually resulted 
in an *increase* in firepower due to the improved tactical flexibility 
of the triangular organisation.

The British stuck with their 12 battalion divisions until 1918 when 
combined attrition of four years of trench warfare finally forced them 
to adopt the triangular division as well (not to get more divisions, 
they just didn't have the manpower to keep the existing divisions at 
12 battalions any more). I think the Australians and Canadians also 
moved to the triangular formation at around the same time. 
However the New Zealanders stuck with the older 12 battalion 
organisation right till the end of the war.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 06:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 05:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML]  Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020418234703.00aa66d0@mail.pi.se>

Hello!

Leonard Erickson wrote:

 >On the other hand, unless that collision happened *really* late in the
 >formation of the system, such a plent would tend to collect a lot more
 >gas and other stuff, and possibly wind up as a mini-GG.

 From what I recall of astronomy, the gas giants form relatively early in 
the planetary creation phase, before the solar wind has dissipated the gas 
disc. Perhaps within a few million years. The terrestrial worlds 
traditionally are pictured to form over a slightly longer period, maybe ten 
times slower - the planetesimals form quickly, but building planets from 
them take a bit more time. So there is not much of gas to collect for 
terrestrial worlds unless they form very fast. The terrestrial planets 
around our solar system seem to have got most of their atmosphere from 
impacts of comet material and outgassing, even though they would probably 
be massive enough to sweep up and retain several of the gasses in the disc 
had that disc remained when they reached present size.

I believe you mentioned yourself how gas giants are pictured to spiral 
inwards from being formed outside the snow line - it is hard to picture hot 
gas giants formed in place even around systems rich in heavy elements.

Secondarily, if we take the collision-based-planet with a density of 6-6.5 
instead of 5-5.5, it isn't that exceedingly more apt to collect more gas 
even if such gas remains in large amounts when the planet has reached such 
a size. The same problem would certainly exist for a world with slightly 
larger radius than Earth yet still having a lower density of the range you 
apparently accept as possible.

What I argue is that it is possible to build higher density worlds simply 
by using the normal rock & metal mix and examples our (only) sample solar 
system can provide.

 >>Above a certain point, you get runaway accumulation of material, which
 >>results in a gas giant of some sort.

As above, that is highly dependent not only on a limiting size/temperature 
but on whether there is any significant material to accumulate in that manner.

 >Also, that major collision is just as apt to scatter pieces of those
 >rocky world halfway across the system.

I'd wager it rather is much more likely it will shatter both bodies than it 
would stick together.

However, the surviving pieces of such collisions could still form more 
iron-rich cores in further accretion. Much or even most of the disc 
material is possibly ejected from the inner system anyway.

A high-density world would probably be more likely to survive with many 
smaller impacts blasting off parts of the lighter matter than a big one. 
Thus, my initial example was not optimal. But it still is not a reason to 
completely write off planets of say, 6-6.5 density planets as unrealistic 
or exceedingly uncommon - perhaps especially around high-metalicity stars 
where it can be assumed there would be more of rocky and metallic matter to 
accrete in the inner system.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 07:57:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 06:57:33 2002
Subject: [TML] planetoid hulls for GT?
Message-ID: <3CC2C4A6.1F017BE6@mail.cswnet.com>

How can I get a planetoid hull for GT?
Would the stats be in Gurps Vehicles?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 08:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Apr 21 07:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] living space
In-Reply-To: <200204210036.EQN01344@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEOKDOAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Just comparing a recent ship design of mine to a current
>nuclear submarine.
>
>It looks like a modern nuclear submarine allocates far, far
>less living space that we allocate in Traveller.  In what
>appears to be the same length of hull (length of living
>quarters space), with a known beam (10 meters in the case of
>the sub, 20 meters in the case of the Traveller ship).
>
>In roughly 176 Traveller displacement tons, the sub has over
>129 crew.  And this is being generous: part of this space is
>taken up by bridge and torpedo tubes.

Very true. And sailors on sailing ships had even less personal space. The
question is who would want to live like that? Conditions on submarines are
so crowded that since the 1950's submarine sailors have been allotted
quarters ashore. To really appreciate this you have to realize that surface
sailors who are single have been forced to live aboard ship, even when in
port. It basically means that you have no life. Recently the navy has begun
to extend this arrangement to surface sailors, providing quarters on a space
available basis to single sailors in home ports.

Also, one should not forget that the members of navies other than the U.S.
Navy live in much better conditions. German sailors have six person rooms
for the most junior people and four person rooms for more senior enlisteds.
(Not to mention being wet when in port.)

There is also a basic difference between any kind of Earth seagoing ship and
a Traveller spacecraft. Except in wartime most surface sailors spend only
weeks at sea between port visits. There are typically years between
deployments, which are 6 months long and are generally a matter of traveling
from port to port, with no more than a few weeks actually at sea at any one
time. (There is a certain difference now, but we are at war now, so I would
not call this typical.)

If the Traveller fleets follow the sailing pattern of the ships of the days
of sail, then it is likely that they spend years away from their home ports,
not weeks. In the age of sail sailors, in the British navy anyway, were
recruited by press gang, because it was such awful work that no one wanted
to do it. They were the dregs of society.

But the Traveller navies, like the wet navies of today require sophisticated
technologically savvy crewmen. Not the kind of people that would want to
live under conditions that exist on even today's ships (one reason the U.S.
Navy has so much trouble keeping people.)

One of the easiest, and cheapest in the long run, method of keeping high
quality people is to give them decent living conditions. It is common on
merchant ships today for seamen to live in the kind of berthing used on
Traveller ships. It is my contention that by the middle of this century U.S.
Navy ships will have similar berthing, if only because that's they only way
they will be able to compete for the high quality technical people they
need.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 08:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 07:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <20020421150430.A6895@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421071925.009f7600@mindspring.com>

At 03:04 PM 4/21/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
> > Because in this case the Jgd exist only in gas giant atmospheres,
> > are completely unfathomable to humans, and have no real motivations
> > that humans can figure out.

>But seriously, I don't see anything there that makes them more
>suitable as NPC material than as PC.

The inability and lack of desire for contact with other races? Other than 
their unique environment, the Jgd are pretty boring.

> > Playing a group of 10 meter spheres that die quickly on most
> > Imperial worlds and are allergic to jump would be a bit boring.
>
>Doesn't sound too bad to me.  Besides, if they're suitable as an NPC
>race, why aren't they suitable as PCs?  If they're boring for players
>to run, presumably they're just as boring for the GM.  If they're
>incomprehensible for players, they're just as incomprehensible for the
>GM.

Remember the Star Trek episode "Is There In Truth No Beauty?"

http://www.treasure-troves.com/startrek/IsThereInTruthNoBeauty.html

The Medusan ambassador is a good example of a race that makes an 
interesting one-time encounter, or an occassional source of odd 
adventures.  Likewise the Puppeteers in Larry Niven's Known Space 
series.  What they put Beowulf Shaeffer through...

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 08:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Sun Apr 21 07:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
Message-ID: <F89TT0rafoBdDvwGB9g0001145a@hotmail.com>

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
<P>
<DIV>&lt;snip several hundred thousand exceptionally vile words&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Leonard Erickson sent me&nbsp;a link that explained how to correct things. If I did it right this should be in rtf.</DIV>
<DIV>Sorry about the html. I didn't realize this idiotic ISP program was doing that.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></P></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <a href='http://g.msn.com/1HM205401/l'>Click Here</a><br></html>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 09:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Sun Apr 21 08:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421071925.009f7600@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204210955580.27392-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
> The Medusan ambassador is a good example of a race that makes an 
> interesting one-time encounter, or an occassional source of odd 
> adventures.  Likewise the Puppeteers in Larry Niven's Known Space 
> series.  What they put Beowulf Shaeffer through...

Limiting their suitability to a single encounter alone isn't a reason to
disallowing them as PCs.  They may only be suited to a one-shot adventure
or short mini-campaign, but what's wrong with that?

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Sun Apr 21 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204210955580.27392-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <010401c1e94c$9dd5b7e0$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

If you want to use them as a pc race fine, but I find for the most part most
races make better npc then pc, . YMMV
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Carl Kettler" <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
> Limiting their suitability to a single encounter alone isn't a reason to
> disallowing them as PCs.  They may only be suited to a one-shot adventure
> or short mini-campaign, but what's wrong with that?
>
> Gregory Kettler
> "Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
> --Dave, KODT
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 10:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 09:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <F89TT0rafoBdDvwGB9g0001145a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E83217.57B30%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/21/02 7:48 AM, Samuel Weiss at samwise1@msn.com wrote:

<snip several hundred thousand exceptionally vile words>
 
Leonard Erickson sent me a link that explained how to correct things. If I
did it right this should be in rtf.
Sorry about the html. I didn't realize this idiotic ISP program was doing
that.
 


But plain text would be better.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 10:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Sun Apr 21 09:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
References: <B8E83217.57B30%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>

Or maybe not ...

*SIGH*

Sorry yet again. Is this one right?


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 10:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Sun Apr 21 09:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
References: <B8E83217.57B30%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <014201c1e951$11ada520$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Hi Sam I didn't; know you where here to we really have to stop meeting like
this :)
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message -----
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@msn.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks


> Or maybe not ...
>
> *SIGH*
>
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?
>
>
> Sam
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 11:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 10:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E83E61.57B3B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/21/02 9:19 AM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@msn.com wrote:

> Or maybe not ...
> 
> *SIGH*
> 
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?
> 

You got it.  Thanks very much!!

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 11:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Sun Apr 21 10:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
References: <20020421100312.13099279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC2FEED.CA035AA0@together.net>

> From: MurfNMurf@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 18:55:03 EDT
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Alien Help
> 
>    Hi,
>    Looking for alien stats for Traveller (CT/MT) the other day on the WWWeb,
> I ran across a pretty extensive (and frankly, kind of frightening as well)
> list of Traveller-related aliens, and was wondering if folks might be able to
> help me out with stats for several species that looked pretty interesting.
>    Adduxar: Carnivorous reptilians from the Zhodani book.
>    Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.

	There's an expanded write-up of these creatures in GT:AR4. Along with a
number of other CT aliens and a few new one. 

>    Sambiqys: Red-zoned Androids from JTAS 24.
>
	I'm not sure where the Sambiqys were written up, but it's not in JTAS
24. In either case 101 Robots has a short writeup:

664x2-A4-PQ522-MFE7(P) Cr38,356,000 840kg
Fuel=155.225 Duration=21.56 TL=17
50/122 (mesh)
4 Med Tentacles, Head (10%), 2 eyes (+2 passive IR), 2 ears, Voder, 2
olfactory sensors, Touch sensors (+extra sensitivity), taste sensor, 2
Power interfaces, brain interface, TL17 holo recorder (3D) Electronic
circuit protection, Admin-4, Emotion Stimulation. 

	If you can read the Book8 formats that should give you a start on these
as characters. 	


-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 11:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Sun Apr 21 10:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <E16yrdg-0001rp-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <DAV501sDWek3BGGtyr300019c9b@hotmail.com>

John Snead wrote,

>I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and
that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually
fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine
sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas
all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.<

Oooohhhh ....
Someone who thinks Rand is as worthless as I do. Cool!
:-P

>ObTrav, in several hundred years it would be interesting to note
how various organizations have changed. A Feudal Technocracy
could easily go from being a technocratic meritocracy to being a
static and rigid system of technological oriented castes and still
maintain the same designation.<

Or like the Imperium itself?
:)

Or even more, consider how a change in social standards over a span of 20
years could cause people to question the government designations.  Likewise
with historical revisions.
How much would it take for <insert target leader here> to shift between
Charismatic and Non-Charismatic Dictator, or even from simply head of state
under a Representative Democracy to one of the above?


Sam
(My email is reconfigured, I have 5 minutes, and now the real suffering
begins! :-P)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
Message-ID: <19f.10e2de7.29f47482@aol.com>

--part1_19f.10e2de7.29f47482_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thanks for the info :)
Ken



--part1_19f.10e2de7.29f47482_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Thanks for the info :)
<BR>Ken
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_19f.10e2de7.29f47482_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 15:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Apr 21 14:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>
References: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3cc5281d.3577404@post.demon.co.uk>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:

>The Australian army in WWI used four battalion infantry brigades.  =
Cavalry
>brigades were three regiments (battalions) per brigade.  I'm pretty sure
>this was British practice, too. =20

Yes.  To be specific, composition of a British infantry division
altered as follows:

pre-war: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions (with 24 Vickers guns)
4 brigades of artillery (54 18lb, 18 4.5", 4 60lb)
2 Co. engineers, 1 Sq. cavalry, 1 Co. cyclists, support elements

mid-1915: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions (with 48 Vickers guns)
4 brigades of artillery (54 18lb, 8 4.5")
2 Co. engineers, 1 Sq. cavalry, 1 Co. cyclists, support elements

Sept 1916: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions, a trench mortar battery
and a machine gun company (with 144 Lewis guns, 48 Vickers guns and 8
3" mortars)
4 brigades of artillery (48 18lb, 16 4.5")
4 trench mortar batteries (12 2", 4 9.45")
2-3 Co. engineers, pioneer battalion, support elements.

Apr 1917: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions, a trench mortar battery and
a machine gun company (with 192 Lewis guns, 48 Vickers guns and 8 3"
mortars)
2 brigades of artillery (36 18lb, 12 4.5")
4 trench mortar batteries (12 2", 4 9.45")
1 machine gun company (16 Vickers guns)
2-3 Co. engineers, pioneer battalion, support elements.

Oct 1918: 3 brigades each of 3 battalions and a trench mortar battery
(with 324 Lewis guns and 8 3" mortars)
2 brigades of artillery (36 18lb, 12 4.5")
2 trench mortar batteries (12 2")
1 machine gun battalion (64 Vickers guns)
2-3 Co. engineers, pioneer battalion, support elements.

In short, a steady increase in the number of machine guns available to
the troops.  While the amount of artillery available at division and
lower levels tended to decrease, that's because it was taken into
general reserve to be deployed en masse for specific offensives -
something that made sense given the static nature of the Western
=46ront.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 15:32:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Apr 21 14:32:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419164150.01eb9740@mail.qrc.com>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203> <5.1.0.14.2.20020419164150.01eb9740@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3cc62d61.4925172@post.demon.co.uk>

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> writes:

>In every other case that is covered by the rules, attempting to do=20
>something unusual with a jump drive causes one of three results: either=20
>nothing happens, the ship misjumps, or is catastrophically destroyed.  =
Any=20
>of these would be appropriate, and destruction sounds most likely to me =
as=20
>well.

4)  you enter jump^2 space, where you spend z weeks and re-emerge into
normal jump-space z*Jn parsecs from your starting location.
Unfortunately, the value of the constant z is unknown... (but probably
extremely high.  Unless it's the square root of minus one or some such
value).  Also, the mapping of J^2-space onto j-space is not the same
as that of j-space to n-space...

5)  You appear at the centre of the universe before the throne of
Great Azathoth himself.

Stephen
tekeli-li...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 17:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr 21 16:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
References: <20020421190105.C74D2279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c1e989$71a64d00$81b18b90@computer>

> From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
> The British stuck with their 12 battalion divisions until 1918 when
> combined attrition of four years of trench warfare finally forced them
> to adopt the triangular division as well (not to get more divisions,
> they just didn't have the manpower to keep the existing divisions at
> 12 battalions any more). I think the Australians and Canadians also
> moved to the triangular formation at around the same time.
> However the New Zealanders stuck with the older 12 battalion
> organisation right till the end of the war.

OK.  That makes sense.

In WWII, Australian divisions were originally going to be organised with
four battalion brigades, but this was changed to bring them in line with
British practice.  I'd have to check the details, but I think the first
division raised (the 6th Division) was actually formed along these lines.
The battalions left over from the reduction to three battalion brigades were
assigned to the 7th or 8th division.  Like I said, I would need to check the
details...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 17:47:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 16:47:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421234639.35407.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh
future leader of men?  :P
END QUOTE
I'm a traditionilist. It means pretty much the same as
"I'm right behind you" (twelve miles that is) ;P

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 17:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 16:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421235144.21334.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
God help them.  I'm almost of the opinion that
officers should be enlisted first.  Even academy
cadets should complete 2 years before going to the
academy.
END QUOTE

I was joking! I'm not that sort of person. I in fact
believe they should do away with the whole enlited vs
officer thing! I mean it was orignally away to make
sure the nobles (no matter how imcompetent) where
never under the command of an commoner. I think every
one should start as private and take a test to be
accepted into a command academy. 

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:00:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:00:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421235938.36529.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Nah, he's just a Butter Bar wanna be. Like Lt. Gorman
in Aliens. Hey Top, you take the men in, I'll just
watch the camera's, and make sure my boots don't get
scuffed, oh, and once your in the meat grinder I'll 
be here to lead you out. Yes Sir, were on it. Vasquez
you take point.

Turokan
END QUOTE

In Australia we have pips! Not bars. ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
Message-ID: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>

I had to go with AOL 7.0 because my copy of the last AOL software that DIDN'T 
make getting rid of HTML codes a pain vanished with the HD crash of a few 
weeks ago. Regular e-mail isn't hard, but quoting text is now a major hassle, 
and I am more than a little annoyed.

This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much extraneous 
garbage?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:12:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:12:35 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <81.1a9d8d8c.29f4af3c@aol.com>

Samuel D. Weiss Said:
>>John Snead wrote,
>>
>>I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and
>>that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually
>>fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine
>>sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas
>>all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.<
>>
>Oooohhhh ....
>Someone who thinks Rand is as worthless as I do. Cool!

Without knowing how worthless you think Rand is, I've never been especially 
fond of her writing either

This is a test to see if quoted text works without extraneous garbage.

LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <20020422001538.87316.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Never, ever sign someone up as an infantryman, and
then tell him halfway through his term that "because
you were a programmer in civilian life, we're going to
make you one here, because we're short programmers. 
We don't know who assigned you here, but we've no use
for you otherwise.".
END QUOTE

Which is why I am not going to mention my major
(software engineering to the army). "Computer sir?, I
don't recognise that command sir!". Im going to be a
programmer in civilian life the last thing I want to
do in the army is program. Now running around with a
huge pack in the mud! Sounds like fun ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
In-Reply-To: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220957010.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi LKW:

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> I had to go with AOL 7.0 because my copy of the last AOL software that DIDN'T
> make getting rid of HTML codes a pain vanished with the HD crash of a few
> weeks ago. Regular e-mail isn't hard, but quoting text is now a major hassle,
> and I am more than a little annoyed.
>
> This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much extraneous
> garbage?
>
> LKW

 Shows up in PINE 4.44 fine, no extra stuff. And yeah I <96 mega pulses
deleted for content> hate aol as well.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

"J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:

> Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
> eliminate poverty?

The government defines a poverty line.  People at and near that 
point pay no income taxes.  Anyone with an income greater than 
that pays a graduated tax, depending upon how far above it they 
are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the 
government (much like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any 
money in) to give them money equal to being at the poverty line.  

End result: no one in the nation has an income that is below the 
poverty line.  Also, the amount of taxes necessary would not be 
that high, especially since the entire welfare bureaucracy (which 
consumes a surprisingly high percentage of the money allocated to 
this sector of the government) would be instantly eliminated.

In the 1970s, this idea was either proposed or promoted by  
economist Milton Friedman and was touted as a libertarian 
proposal.  Sadly, libertarianism has changed significantly since 
them (IMHO, much for the worse).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <20413.122049.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Leonard:

 Catching up on the back log of mail.

On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
> Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system.
>
> The disk formats haven't changed (not the flopiy ones anyway) and the
> newer programs can generally read the data files from the older ones.

 You have more knowledge on the tech of the systems than I. All i am
reporting is what the average user, the "plug & pray" type, have told me
in the shop. Explaining all the problems they have with the system and
upgrades. Problems with reading disks and accessing older files. I was
told that it is possible to do the work. This by a man in his 3rd year of
computer Scicese at UofO. But he also said it took some programming and
hardware work. his explanation went above my head.

> FM (aka "single density") and MFM (aka "double density" and "high density").
>
> Most "modern" floppy controller chips can't read FM disks. But a lot of
> fairly recent ones can. For example, the Adaptec SCSI cards that
> include a floppy controller can.

 Accedentally tried to format a single density disk on my 1571 drive. In
short I have 4 of them to now to a manual head alignment job. My drives
contain the micro processor. Not certain if new cards installed would work
or be possible. Though I do remember that the first HD for the C= being
the Lt. Kernal used MFM hard drives.

> With some easily available software I can read TRS-80 floppies on my
> PC. To read Commodore or Apple GCR disks, I'd have to install the old
> CopyIIPC deluxe option board in one of my systems.

 What about emulators? i hear on some of the lists and newsgroups about
Vice 1.8 as the best out there for reading C= disk images. The .D64, .D71
and the .D81 image copy style. is this what you mean or is the above
something that I am not familiar with at this time?

> PCjr floppies used the same format as the PC.
>
> No idea what the X-box uses.

 I may be wrong, but I was told that besides the disk media. That some of
the Os is put on the disk in what I know as track and sectors. I was told
that the track and sectors for this information change with the upgrades.
Therefore this is a reason why newer systems have trouble or can't read
the older disks. This problem happened when a friend of mine tried to copy
his wifes 286 disks to the hard drive on his vin95v4 <IIRC> it wrote new
os on the original disks. how this happened or the exact things done I
don'T know. just that both of them were stock users. No programming
understanding.

> What gets fun is when you need to read things like 8" floppies or the
> whacko Amstrad 3" (*not* 3.5"!) floppies. Or cassette tapes, or stringy
> floppies or other weird media.

 <grins> Recently saw a store selling the 8" ones as part of a side walk
sale. They were surprised when I went for 50 still sealed DS/Dd 5 1/4 soft
sectored disks. FWIW Verbatium has a site up where they are selling these
disks. including the 8" and some other weird sizes I don't remember.
Speaking of cassette tapes. That is a project that I am working upon.
Converting my tape collection to disk. Not an easy one. But possible. Not
certain what you mean by stringy floppies. But I do remember in college
paper tape and those <name escapes me> punch cards.

> I once had to recover a program by reading paper tape by *hand*.

 That was a test in 74 at the class I had to take. Fun isn't it?? <BG>

> I have a DOS program called HTMSTRIP that takes HTML and produces a
> reasonably formatted plain text file. It even puts in the "boxes" in
> tables.

 My Wave prg alows me to choice between a dial up to telnet or a direct
text based web browser. I can do better with the new beta version on
working with frames if I use the straight browser. Most of the time I use
the lynx for Inet web work. Takes most frames well. But not yet will
either do the boxes. My e-mail is with Pine 4.44 though the telnet.
Eventually I will use Qwkrr for my off line reader. Still sending via
telnet the packet to videocam. Generally it makes things smooth in
reading. Removing some inconsistencies and prompts me at the start of the
msg that it has done this job and that some charcters maynot be correct.
HTML though is not always corrected. At the best everything is in
underline. At the worse all commands are enclosed in "<xx>" in the msg.
Making inding the actual content almost impossible. I have yet to try w3m.
my SysAdmin tells me this is good for frames and forms.

> There's a DOS program that'll view many image formats, including .AVI
> and MPEG files, and play a lot of sound formats.

 The free beta test of JOS will allow me to see JPEG on scren while on
line. Also and here I am out of my experience, play Wave and RAW and some
form of streamlined MP something sound files. Right now I am considering
dl ing the plans for the new ethernet board for my C=.

> Well, the idea is that there need to be publicly available standards.
> Having multiple standards is merely inconvenient as long as the info
> on the file formats is available.

 That is a problem we have today the no standards since the other systems
like mine are still in use. Impossible to set a standard then without
causing a revolt of users of the non standard platforms. A good story idea
for a lower tech level world??

 Plot ideas are running rampant in my head. Wish I could read my
penmanship for the notes I am taking on this topic. So many worlds at so
many tech levels. Creating so many different platforms. The possibilities
for computer difficulties are almost endless. However I would think that
there are Imperial standards for navigation. Set probably by the ISS. Even
if emulators and converters have to be installed in the software or
hardware on the ship. Another part of the computer skill?

> The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
> either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
> to import and export files in those formats.

 That sounds nice on paper. However I can see resentment happening. Just
based on the little that we have not using windoze systems.  We face
discrimination and that builds resentment to hostility. In Traveller, on
frontiere worlds that are doing their own thing. This could grow into a
sense of "National" pride. Or the thought of being "forced" into
something. Still I suspect that there is something going on in the
computer line. Where the files are sent say from the x-boat to panet and
revers. Where it is translated to the usable format for the receptor of
the information.

> Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
> equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
> finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice.

 Myself, I am working on converting PET to geoWrite 2.1 then converting
the final output to Ascii for upload to the places I write for through the
Inet. I can do the revese and prefere to do all my writing in GeoWrite 2.1
Takes just a few minutes to convert back and forth. Perhaps that is a
thought for the Imperial mail at least. Though expanded for images and
text for the local systems.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <20020422001538.87316.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421173609.009ec3e0@mindspring.com>

At 10:15 AM 4/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Now running around with a
>huge pack in the mud! Sounds like fun ;)

Oh it is, for the first ten miles or so!

OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at the start of the 
road march, how much will it weigh after 25 miles cross-country through 
Korea in July?


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:06:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:06:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
In-Reply-To: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174048.009fa870@mindspring.com>

At 08:07 PM 4/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
>This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much extraneous
>garbage?

Check. free and clear.

If I ever have to change systems, I'm posting the Beowulf mayday as my test 
post.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:09:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:09:13 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020421235144.21334.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174146.009fba50@mindspring.com>

At 09:51 AM 4/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
>I was joking! I'm not that sort of person. I in fact
>believe they should do away with the whole enlited vs
>officer thing! I mean it was orignally away to make
>sure the nobles (no matter how imcompetent) where
>never under the command of an commoner.

Well, that's sort of true, but there is a very real reason for the gulf 
between officers and enlisted men.

In combat, and officers has to be able to order men to take actions that 
will almost certainly get them killed, and have those orders carried out 
without question. An officer has to be a rather remote figure of power, 
hence all the saluting and calling someone with bars on his collars  "Sir" 
even though he might be younger than you.

Officers also are the responsible ones.  When things go wrong, it is the 
officer's fault. That is an awesome responsibility, and they deserve 
a  little deference from us grunts.

I served under all three flavors of officer, ROTC, trade school, and 
OCS.  They all had their differences, but I'd rather be led a member of the 
Hudson High Alumni association than a guy doing his six years to pay off 
getting his degree in Marketing at Party U.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:13:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220927280.6440-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Sam:

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Samuel D. Weiss wrote:

> Or maybe not ...
>
> *SIGH*
>
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?

 Came across to me <ascii only> quite fine. No html or things I can't
read.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204220112.ESJ04755@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry asks
>
>OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at 
>the start of the road march, how much will it weigh after 25 
>miles cross-country through Korea in July?
>

About the same as the Dragon, with spare round.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:18:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:18:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
Message-ID: <20020421.210932.-150737.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

> This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much 
> extraneous garbage?
> 
> LKW

I'm reading it fine as straight text.  Considering I use Juno (which
considers *anything* besides straight text as an evil abberation) I'd say
you're doing fine.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421173609.009ec3e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC36486.FE987F75@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 10:15 AM 4/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
> >Now running around with a
> >huge pack in the mud! Sounds like fun ;)
> 
> Oh it is, for the first ten miles or so!
> 
> OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at the start of the
> road march, how much will it weigh after 25 miles cross-country through
> Korea in July?

23 pounds, which is about half as much as that damnable M40 protective
mask that keeps banging against your left thigh with each step.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:26:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Scheets)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:26:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <008801c1e978$f0b18e40$8e83bad0@computer2>

Robot cameras 'will predict crimes before they happen'

By learning behaviour patterns, computers could soon alert police when an
unmanned camera sees 'suspicious' activity
By Andrew Johnson
21 April 2002

Computers and CCTV cameras could be used to predict and prevent crime before
it happens.

Scientists at Kingston University in London have developed software able to
anticipate if someone is about to mug an old lady or plant a bomb at an
airport.

It works by examining images coming in from close circuit television cameras
(CCTV) and comparing them to behaviour patterns that have already programmed
into its memory.

The software, called Cromatica, can then mathematically work out what is
likely to happen next. And if it is likely to be a crime it can send a
warning signal to a security guard or police officer.

Full story at:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=287307


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:34:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:34:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <20020422001538.87316.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002301c1e99e$0f4d18e0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Ramsay" <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au>
> Which is why I am not going to mention my major
> (software engineering to the army). "Computer sir?, I
> don't recognise that command sir!"

Just as long as you don't say "Computer sir? Bad Command or Filename sir!"

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <81.1a9d8d8c.29f4af3c@aol.com>
References: <81.1a9d8d8c.29f4af3c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8qq6cukej81v0jdgtshfhj82sl6acr8foc@4ax.com>

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 20:11:40 EDT, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>Samuel D. Weiss Said:
>>>John Snead wrote,
>>>
>>>I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and
>>>that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it =
actually
>>>fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine
>>>sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas
>>>all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.<
>>>
>>Oooohhhh ....
>>Someone who thinks Rand is as worthless as I do. Cool!
>
>Without knowing how worthless you think Rand is, I've never been =
especially=20
>fond of her writing either
>
>This is a test to see if quoted text works without extraneous garbage.

The quoting seems to have worked pretty well from this side of things.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 21:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 20:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020421224306.00a87f00@rollanet.org>

So this is the reason that starports are on the planet's surface and 
highports aren't as common.

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%7B1F54AEED-A34B-411B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D

--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 21:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 21 20:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 05:38:11PM -0700
References: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020421214459.A958@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 05:38:11PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the government (much
> like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any money in) to give them
> money equal to being at the poverty line.

All that'd do is devalue the dollar until the poverty line in dollars
is once again below the poverty line in fact.  It's a better scheme
than the current welfare regime, and may indeed work rather more
slowly to eviscerate the economy, but the end result'd be the same.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Security-wise, NT is a server with a 'kick me' sign taped to it.
                                                --Peter Gutmann

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 22:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 21:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <20020422041531.74282.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Robot cameras 'will predict crimes before they happen'
By learning behaviour patterns, computers could soon
alert police when an unmanned camera sees 'suspicious'
activity
END QUOTE

Until we develop AI or very very sophisticated system
this would be useless in the real world. How does a
computer now whether a person is reaching for a gun or
there wallet? Answer they can't. All it can do is
determine that an image of a person looks like its
reaching for something. If they stopped wasting money
on tech dreams such as this actual humans could be
hired. And for a very long time into the future humans
(even the ones typically hired as security guards)
will have more reasoning ability than all the
computers in the world! Robotic security guards have
been in development since the 70's and no one has yet
to make one that is accurate and/or doesn't cost more
than the police budget for a small city.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 22:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 21:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules (OT about computers)
Message-ID: <20020422041947.44658.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Just as long as you don't say "Computer sir? Bad
Command or Filename sir!"
END QUOTE

Evil thought! 

EnlistedOS. "What hard drive sir?", "Sir, the private
doesn't know where that file is", "I don't know what
happened to the RAM, sir", "Sir, it was there the last
time I checked", "But sir the registry needed cleaning
sir".

very evil indeed.

James




=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 22:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 21:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <3CC3930A.D2B8F94D@mail.cswnet.com>

Richard Wilson writes:
>So this is the reason that starports are on the planet's surface and 
>highports aren't as common.

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%7B1F54AEED-A34B-411B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D

JOY! Hydrogen wells! JOY! That will make the Downports in systems
without gas giants or other significant surface water so much easier to
deal with. I can see it now...

"168-1106 Arba/Lunion
A media advisor for Myers Mining and Manufacturing announced the
discovery of large subsurface hydrogen deposits....."

I can see the port director thinking about it now...

"No more stupid fuel blimps. No more running to the asteroid belt to
melt ice. No more begging Lanth for a refueling ship. No more...."

I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen Drilling Platform?
What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How exactly would one
extract it from the subsurface? Would there be any hazards?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 23:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 22:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20421.215401.3P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Or maybe not ...
>
> *SIGH*
>
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?

Yep. Looks good.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 23:09:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 22:09:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <F89TT0rafoBdDvwGB9g0001145a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20421.215246.9z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
> <P>
> <DIV>&lt;snip several hundred thousand exceptionally vile words&gt;</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>Leonard Erickson sent me&nbsp;a link that explained how to correct 
> things. If I did it right this should be in rtf.</DIV>
> <DIV>Sorry about the html. I didn't realize this idiotic ISP program was 
> doing that.</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></P></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Join the world&#8217;s largest 
> e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <a 
> href='http://g.msn.com/1HM205401/l'>Click Here</a><br></html>

You don't want RTF either. You want "plain text" or "ASCII". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 00:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 23:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <20020421.230604.-125605.5.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:35:22 -0500 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
>
> I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen Drilling Platform?
> What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How exactly would one
> extract it from the subsurface? Would there be any hazards?
> 

One word - Praxis!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 00:12:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 23:12:29 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421.230604.-125605.4.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:59:38 +1000 (EST) =?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=
<quakers_united@yahoo.com.au> writes:
> QUOTE
> Nah, he's just a Butter Bar wanna be. 
> 
> Turokan
> END QUOTE
> 
> In Australia we have pips! Not bars. ;)
> 
> James

That's fine James, in America it fits our Army OCS graduates fairly well.
Not the West Point grads. To me, if they can make it through West Point,
they've earned the respect of being called Sir.

Anyway Butter "pips" just don't sound good.

What do you call your OCS officers?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 00:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 23:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20421.220153.6l0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hoi Leonard:
>
>  Catching up on the back log of mail.
>
> On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
>> Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system.
>>
>> The disk formats haven't changed (not the flopiy ones anyway) and the
>> newer programs can generally read the data files from the older ones.
>
>  You have more knowledge on the tech of the systems than I. All i am
> reporting is what the average user, the "plug & pray" type, have told me
> in the shop. Explaining all the problems they have with the system and
> upgrades. Problems with reading disks and accessing older files. I was
> told that it is possible to do the work. This by a man in his 3rd year of
> computer Scicese at UofO. But he also said it took some programming and
> hardware work. his explanation went above my head.

Upgrading hardware can cause problems with almost any bit of hardware
in the system. A common problem when upgrading to the motherboards we
prefer is that the printer port won't work unless you know the right
way to force Windows to rescan for the hardware in the system. 

Most folks just give up and reinstall from scratch. 

Also, floppy drives *do* get out of alignment. 

But with windows, the first thing to suspect is that hardware manager
is loading drivers for a previous card or motherboard.

>> With some easily available software I can read TRS-80 floppies on my
>> PC. To read Commodore or Apple GCR disks, I'd have to install the old
>> CopyIIPC deluxe option board in one of my systems.
>
>  What about emulators? i hear on some of the lists and newsgroups about
> Vice 1.8 as the best out there for reading C= disk images. The .D64, .D71
> and the .D81 image copy style. is this what you mean or is the above
> something that I am not familiar with at this time?

I'm talking about reading actual floppies. The CopyIIPC board hooks
between the PC's floppy controller and the floppy drives. It lets you
read Mac & Commodore floppies.

>> PCjr floppies used the same format as the PC.
>>
>> No idea what the X-box uses.
>
>  I may be wrong, but I was told that besides the disk media. That some of
> the Os is put on the disk in what I know as track and sectors. I was told
> that the track and sectors for this information change with the upgrades.

Nope.

DOS and Windows use 512 byte sectors on floppies (and on most HDs). The
original 5.25" floppies used 40 tracks, with 8 sectors per track.
Single or double sided. (for 160k and 320k per floppy)

Later that was upped to 9 sectors per track, giving 180k and 360k per
floppy.

There were some odd formats used on a few proprietary versions of DOS,
especially on 3.5" disks before IBM introduced their version. 

Standard 3.5" DD disks are 720k. 80 track, 40 sectors per track.

The HD floppies were 80 track on both sizes of floppy. Which, btw,
caused mah\jor problems with writing to 5.25" DD floppies on HD drives...

1.2M 5.25" floppies were 16 sectors per track, 80 track.
1.4 meg 3.5" floppies were 18 sectors per track, 80 track.

But with the right commands you can read/write any MFM format that the
drive will support. 

It's the weird sector sizes, FM and GCR formats that you need to have
the right hardware for.

> Therefore this is a reason why newer systems have trouble or can't read
> the older disks.

Ok, Windows will clobber *non*-DOS disks, and some "special" dos disks
because it checks to see if disks have been changed by writing a made
up string to a location on the floppie normal used for an ID string
used to identify various OEM versions of DOS. This makes the disks
unreadable on the original system.

Never stick install disks from older software, or things like BIOS
upgrade disks into a box running windows without write protecting the floppy.

> This problem happened when a friend of mine tried to copy
> his wifes 286 disks to the hard drive on his vin95v4 <IIRC> it wrote new
> os on the original disks. how this happened or the exact things done I
> don'T know. just that both of them were stock users. No programming
> understanding.

Trust me, *they* did it. Not the OS.

Either the alignment on the drives doiffered and it asked if he wanted
to format the disks, and he said yes, or he did something else stupid. 

You see, without any special commands at all, I copied 100 floppies from
an XT system to directories on my HD and then burned a CD for him. 

I had a bit more trouble with the HD...

>> What gets fun is when you need to read things like 8" floppies or the
>> whacko Amstrad 3" (*not* 3.5"!) floppies. Or cassette tapes, or stringy
>> floppies or other weird media.
>
>  <grins> Recently saw a store selling the 8" ones as part of a side walk
> sale. They were surprised when I went for 50 still sealed DS/Dd 5 1/4 soft
> sectored disks. FWIW Verbatium has a site up where they are selling these
> disks. including the 8" and some other weird sizes I don't remember.

8" floppies are *expensive* now, because so few folks use them anymore.

> Speaking of cassette tapes. That is a project that I am working upon.
> Converting my tape collection to disk. Not an easy one. But possible. Not
> certain what you mean by stringy floppies. But I do remember in college
> paper tape and those <name escapes me> punch cards.

Stringy flopies were a sort of high speed cassette. They used a credit
card sized endless loop tape (rather like an 8-track, but smaller). The
drives were available for several systems, Apple, TRS-80, etc.

>> Well, the idea is that there need to be publicly available standards.
>> Having multiple standards is merely inconvenient as long as the info
>> on the file formats is available.
>
>  That is a problem we have today the no standards since the other systems
> like mine are still in use. Impossible to set a standard then without
> causing a revolt of users of the non standard platforms. A good story idea
> for a lower tech level world??

You are suffering from the delusion that new standards are required to
be usable on "obsolete" equipment. Or even on brands of equipment other
than those of the outfit setting the standard.

>  Plot ideas are running rampant in my head. Wish I could read my
> penmanship for the notes I am taking on this topic. So many worlds at so
> many tech levels. Creating so many different platforms. The possibilities
> for computer difficulties are almost endless. However I would think that
> there are Imperial standards for navigation. Set probably by the ISS. Even
> if emulators and converters have to be installed in the software or
> hardware on the ship. Another part of the computer skill?

You have to remember that most lower tech worlds aren't inventing their
tech. They are upgrading to *existing* tech used on other worlds. Or
they have chosen a locally sustainable tech level lower than that of
the world they were settled from.

After the Long night, you'd get a lot of independent stuff. But it'd be
unlikely to last more than a century or so. Uniform standards are just
too useful. And unless you are the highest tech world in the area,
you'll be replacing or upgrading your stuff in less than a century
anyway. 

>> The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
>> either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
>> to import and export files in those formats.
>
>  That sounds nice on paper. However I can see resentment happening. Just
> based on the little that we have not using windoze systems.  We face
> discrimination and that builds resentment to hostility. In Traveller, on
> frontiere worlds that are doing their own thing. This could grow into a
> sense of "National" pride. Or the thought of being "forced" into
> something.

I think you are confused here. I'm talking about data formats. That's
not the same as stuff like spreadsheets and other "software specific"
formats. 

The only reason you wouldn't be able to import/export stuff in a
"universal" data format would be if your equipment just plain wasn't up
to handling the *data*. For example, it gets *really* hard to handle
multi-gigabyte files on an 8-bit system<g>

The one exception would be compression methods, where the "horsepower"
of the system can make it impossible to handle it on lower powered
systems.

Windows dominance and "universal" data exchange formats are only
loosely related. MS *wants* their stuff to be all that's used and tries
to make it hard to use "foreign" formats (or makes changes to break
formats so the MS version can read files from other software but can't
be read on the other platforms).

> Still I suspect that there is something going on in the
> computer line. Where the files are sent say from the x-boat to panet and
> revers. Where it is translated to the usable format for the receptor of
> the information.

It shouldn't require translation *at all* is my point. GIFs don't need
to be translated. ASCII text only needs translation on systems that
don't support it (and BTW, Commodore was incredibly *stupid* in not
supporting ASCII when they designed the PET the standard had been
around since 1968!!)

>> Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
>> equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
>> finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice.
>
>  Myself, I am working on converting PET to geoWrite 2.1 then converting
> the final output to Ascii for upload to the places I write for through the
> Inet. I can do the revese and prefere to do all my writing in GeoWrite 2.1
> Takes just a few minutes to convert back and forth. Perhaps that is a
> thought for the Imperial mail at least. Though expanded for images and
> text for the local systems.

Again, most tech will *not* be native except in small areas or certain
time periods.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <010401c1e94c$9dd5b7e0$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic

Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.

Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
<grin>

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:26:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:26:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
In-Reply-To: <20020421.230604.-125605.5.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
> >
> > I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen 
> > ? Drilling Platform?
> > What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How 
> > exactly would one> extract it from the subsurface? 
> > Would there be any hazards?
> 
> One word - Praxis!

Um, sorry ?

What does Piaget's term for a child's system of coordinated 
and deliberate movements acquired during the sensory- motor 
stage of development have to do with hydrogen drillling ? 

Or, for that matter, what does the term for the right of 
a Camarilla Prince to rule his city have to do with hydrogen 
drilling ?

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:28:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:28:47 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote :
> The government defines a poverty line.
> People at and near that  point pay no income taxes.
> Anyone with an income greater than that pays a
> graduated tax, depending upon how far above it
> they are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets
> money from the government (much like a tax refund
> but w/o having to pay any money in) to give them
> money equal to being at the poverty line.
>
> End result: no one in the nation has an income that is
> below the poverty line.

And almost no one in the counry has an after tax income that is
much above the poverty line either.

> Also, the amount of taxes necessary
> would not be  that high,

Oh yes it is. You should try living in New Zealand.
20% of the country pay for 80% of it.
The remaining 20% pay their own way.

I'm paying about 40% of my income in income tax alone.
Add onto that sales tax, local government taxes, etc, etc.
and its approaching 60% of my income in tax.

And I still have to pay health insurance and tuition fees on
top of that because the state systems suck for everything
except emergency surgery.

> especially since the entire welfare
> bureaucracy (which consumes a surprisingly high
> percentage of the money allocated to this sector
> of the government) would be instantly eliminated.

And instead that bureaucracy would be duplicated
in the IRS. The bureaucracy for distributing the
money will be the same no matter who controls it.

They had the same idea over here, it increased the
bureaucracy, because although they had the IRD
refunding money to people, they _still_ had to have
the rest of the social welfare system to handle all
the other allowances, like the solo parent's benefit,
the "being Maori" benefit, the "being lesbian"
benefit, and the "being a Maori lesbian solo parent"
benefit, and the...

Sorry, it gets a bit much sometimes, especially when
they teach young girls that a "valid career choice" is
"solo parent".

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002, at 20:35, Frank Pitt wrote:

> They had the same idea over here, it increased the
> bureaucracy, because although they had the IRD
> refunding money to people, they _still_ had to have
> the rest of the social welfare system to handle all
> the other allowances, like the solo parent's benefit,
> the "being Maori" benefit, the "being lesbian"
> benefit, and the "being a Maori lesbian solo parent"
> benefit, and the...
> 

Frank, please be careful here.  I'd like not to be too inflammatory, 
but that statement came close to being racist and homophobic, 
two adjectives I really don't like.  If you need to say stuff like that, 
please keep it out of my mailbox.

Sincerely,
-- Rachel Kronick


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 03:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon Apr 22 02:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <200204220112.ESJ04755@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPEENFEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Douglas Berry asks
>
>OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at
>the start of the road march, how much will it weigh after 25
>miles cross-country through Korea in July?
>

It is a well know fact that as one gets more tired gravity increases where
ever you happen to be. Thus equations for acceleration due to gravity need
to incorporate a fatigue factor.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 03:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 02:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020421214459.A958@4dv.net>
References: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020421214459.A958@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020422193023.A3521@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> All that'd do is devalue the dollar until the poverty line in
> dollars is once again below the poverty line in fact.

Not at all.  That would only be true if the society is very close to
being unable to support its population at poverty line levels -- which
doesn't hold true for any modern industrialised nation.  It is already
demonstrated that rich countries *can* support large government
payments to a large proportion of their population -- all that would
change is who gets what.

Compared with Australia's current welfare system, for example, it
would greatly *encourage* employment and hence productivity of society
as a whole.  As it stands, anyone in Australia who gets even a
part-time job loses their unemployment payments, health care
concessions, rent assistance, eligibility for taxation breaks, and
other benefits -- and usually so do their spouses.  It's a great
disincentive -- in most cases, working 20 hours a week is a net *loss*
over not working at all.

I realise this anecdotal report doesn't refute your point, but it does
show that a much worse system than the one proposed can remain stable
for quite a while.  I don't think it will actually remain so for
political reasons, but economically it could certainly be sustained
indefinitely.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 03:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Apr 22 02:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <20020422093745.58225.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to
> Comics.
Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember
what he did.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 04:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 03:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz> <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020422202058.B3521@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rachel Kronick wrote:
> Frank, please be careful here.  I'd like not to be too inflammatory, 
> but that statement came close to being racist and homophobic, 

Blame it on the government, not Frank.  They're the ones making
decisions whether to hand out money based on the origin of your
ancestors.  I'm not sure whether he was being serious about the
"lesbian" benefit or not.  The solo parent benefit certainly is fact.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 06:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon Apr 22 05:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422202058.B3521@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002, at 20:20, Timothy Little wrote:

> Blame it on the government, not Frank.  They're the ones making
> decisions whether to hand out money based on the origin of your
> ancestors.  I'm not sure whether he was being serious about the
> "lesbian" benefit or not.  The solo parent benefit certainly is fact.
> 

I have little or no problem with the government's decisions regarding 
benefits; the problem was that Frank came very close to implicitly 
saying that being Maori or being lesbian was a bad thing.  His 
derisive tone, not the government's decision, was what irked me.

Okay, nothing further on this subject, at least from me.  

-- Rachel 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 06:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon Apr 22 05:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <E16zdOy-0005P5-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

Eventhough the people maintaining the airplane are all enlisted, some with =
only 6-8 weeks of training.

Beth (retired aircraft maintainer)


>   Pilots are officers because the military does not
> want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
> though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
> the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
> arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
> that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
> wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
> why........
>=20
>      MACessna


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon Apr 22 06:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <E16zdga-0005cC-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

It's OK, nothing to worry about.  Everything will be alright.  Why don't yo=
u follow these two gentlemen to a nice comfy room we have for you.  All pad=
ded and quiet.  Latter we will feed you.  We hope that you like pudding.  W=
e will even fit you with a new jacket as well.  <g,d,r>

Beth :)  (who also had had the same types of brain lock-downs)


>=20
> Mr. McKnight,
>=20
>      Thanks for the tip.  As way of illustrating my dearth of research=20
> skills, I've been mindlessly typing "TO&E" into various search engines.  =
I=20
> never thought to actually SPELL the acronym out!  Did I mention that my h=
ead=20
> comes to a point?
>=20
>      "Sorry for putting this on the web, but I can't contact you offlist=
=20
> without an email address.  :-)"
>=20
>      Yet another example of typical Whipsnadian brain flatulence.  I ask =
the=20
> kind folk of the TML to contact me off-List and then neglect to provide t=
he=20
> address.  Did I mention that my head comes to a point?
>      Thanks again for your help.
>=20
>=20
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 08:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Mon Apr 22 07:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
Message-ID: <F34UkSQDq1gFSlgOLN300005c8f@hotmail.com>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
> >
> >I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me
> >with a special insight when I had my own platoon.
> >
>
>I think it's better to find out that someone can't delegate
>when they're an NCO (or even a corporal) rather then after we
>waste the money to make them an officer.
>
>Of course, I don't believe that leadership can be "taught".
>Talent in this area can be nurtured, grown, and refined, but
>never "taught".  If you can't lead or delegate to begin with,
>no amount of training is going to make a difference.
>
>One other area of "talent" that isn't easily remedied by
>training - tactical ability, and an ability to implement that
>tactical brilliance in your platoon. All platoon drills
>aside -- can you and your men really fight?  I remember
>watching platoons turning into indecisive, sleep-deprived
>zombies because no one in the chain of command, officer or
>nco, could get it all together.  There's nothing more
>unnerving to me than watching a platoon in training mill
>around in my scope when a few of them are hit with MILES
>gear.  Watching the men peep their heads in and out of the
>woodline like idiots.  Officers and NCOs scratching their
>heads and having a committee meeting to decide what to do.  I
>even remember a fat platoon sergeant ambling out into the
>open, looking up and down the danger space, trying to figure
>out where I was.
>
>Not all platoons were this bad, thank God.  But there were
>some like that.  And I put the blame not only on the LT, but
>on the NCOs in the platoon.

I want to give the list a URL...  
http://www2.inc.com/incmagazine/archives/04980541.html

This is an article titled "Corps Values" and it is about the USMC method of 
developing leaders at TBS, The Basic School.  It is an excellent read, and 
gives good insight to the qualities looked for in the screening and 
evaluating process that the US Marine Corps uses in developing leaders.

Obtrav:  All Marine Officers, in the entire force, attend one of the two or 
three basic schools in the Imperium....

Greg Smith
Capt  USMC (former)




Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 08:31:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 07:31:08 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <20020422093745.58225.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422092623.045e5950@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_476139==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Co-author of Dungeons and Dragons.  TSR did their level best to erase his 
name from D&D; Arneson had to sue for royalties; they settled out of court 
back in 1979.

Victor Raymond

At 02:37 AM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to
> > Comics.
>Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember
>what he did.
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
>http://games.yahoo.com/
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor J. Raymond
Department of Sociology, ISU
vraymond@iastate.edu
--=====================_476139==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
Co-author of Dungeons and Dragons.&nbsp; TSR did their level best to
erase his name from D&amp;D; Arneson had to sue for royalties; they
settled out of court back in 1979.<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
At 02:37 AM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what
Kirby was to<br>
&gt; Comics.<br>
Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember<br>
what he did.<br><br>
__________________________________________________<br>
Do You Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more<br>
<a href="http://games.yahoo.com/" eudora="autourl">http://games.yahoo.com/</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
TML mailing list<br>
TML@travellercentral.com<br>
<a href="http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml" eudora="autourl">http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml</a></blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times">Victor J. Raymond<br>
Department of Sociology, ISU<br>
vraymond@iastate.edu</font></html>

--=====================_476139==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 08:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Apr 22 07:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> End result: no one in the nation has an income that
> is below the 
> poverty line.  Also, the amount of taxes necessary
> would not be 
> that high, especially since the entire welfare
> bureaucracy (which 
> consumes a surprisingly high percentage of the money
> allocated to 
> this sector of the government) would be instantly
> eliminated.

The only way I can see such a system working is if you
ensure that those in the system are at least
attempting to be employed.  That, then, requires that
at least some of your welfare bureaucracy remain.  I'm
not suggesting that our current system is better, just
pointing out a possible problem.

Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is 10,000Cr. 
If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away 10,000
of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick.  In
my mind, this situation would produce three types of
people:

1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
     These people continue to earn as much as they
can, either (a) hoping that maybe the government will
not need all of it to pay for those not at poverty
level and that they will get to keep the extra
(doubtful) or (b) working because they are not
concerned with the money aspect of the work, but are
motivated by something else entirely.

2.  Workers (Small Minority)
     These people work to earn poverty level, and take
the rest of the time off.  They are of the type who
believe that labor is good and want to earn for their
family.

3.  Loafers (Very Large Majority)
     These people realize that no matter how much (or
how little) they work, they will get at least enough
money to subsist and if they earn more, the government
is likely to take it all from them.  They reason that
there is no reason to work.

Although I (and probably many others) may want to
think and believe we would be in categories 1 or 2,
how many of us love our work, or feel compelled to
work enough that we could withstand the temptation to
be in category 3?  Not many, I would guess.

Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were
making an attempt at earning a living, and there is
your welfare bureaucracy.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>; from rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net on Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 09:01:26PM +0800
References: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost> <20020422202058.B3521@freeman.little-possums.net> <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020422085927.A5010@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 09:01:26PM +0800, Rachel Kronick wrote:
> 
> I have little or no problem with the government's decisions regarding 
> benefits; the problem was that Frank came very close to implicitly 
> saying that being Maori or being lesbian was a bad thing.

No--he implied that benefits solely because one is Maori or lesbian
are a bad thing.

> His derisive tone, not the government's decision, was what irked me.

The derision was for the government's decision.

Sheesh, I cannot believe I'm defending someone I've killfiled.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Exodus will never disconnect a spammer.  By the time the complaints
reach a level adequate to persuade them, the small-arms fire will
prevent their admins from reaching the servers --clifto, in nanae

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:02:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:02:21 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204221459.g3MExjP00155@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Rupert 
...
>>   Arguably this applied in certain periods of 
>> Roman history, and perhaps in some other classical
>> armies (where maybe only members of the right
>> classes might act as commanders, but far from all
>> of those eligible would fight except as ordinary
>> soldiers).
>
>True. And in theory the Athens so famour for its democracy didn't have 
>an officer class/caste, etc. However in practice only those born of 
>wealthy and influential families would be appointed, as with Rome 
>(which is why I said there weren't any I knew of).
>
>However it's probably worth noting that in these armies (especially the 
>Roman one of the late Republic and early Empire) most of the positions 
>we'd consider appropriate for officers were filled by Centurions and 
>their superiors, all of whom were 'from the ranks'. There were officers 
>above them who weren't from the ranks, but they were few and far 
>between (I seem to recall there being none until Legion level, at which 
>point there was the CO and several 'staff officers', etc.). Of course 
>the rank structure was quite flat by modern western standards, too.

  That's why I went with "arguably" - it can be presented either way,
with the big issue being whether some of those positions (eg, a Roman
centurion) were officers or NCO's. By the social standards of the
non-professionals in command (& staff) at Legion level they were only
commoners for almost all purposes, but the Legion could sooner function
without any of those patricians or equites than it could with even half
of the centurionate absent.

  Given the role of the army in political strife in the later Empire,
maybe the empire would have functioned better without any of those
classes in the legions :|

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174048.009fa870@mindspring.com>
References: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174048.009fa870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020422170728.7ba62ef6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Check. free and clear.
> 
> If I ever have to change systems, I'm posting the Beowulf mayday as my
test 
> post.

This is Free PC Beowulf
pinging anyone...
Mayday, Mayday... we are under attack...
hard drive is gone...
serial port number one not responding...
Mayday... losing system stability fast...
calling anyone... please help...
This is Free PC Beowulf

<message repeats>

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changes to First In rules
In-Reply-To: <000d01c1e7bb$b9afeea0$0f01a8c0@terry>
References: <20020316213935.3edca0b2.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <000d01c1e7bb$b9afeea0$0f01a8c0@terry>
Message-ID: <20020422171232.3a3ba7ef.jenry023@student.liu.se>

tmixon wrote:
> The ratio is wrong. The standard star distribution is 4+ on 1d6. That
> means an average of 640 systems per sector. So this one is actually 1.28
> per sector.

Oops, my mistake.

<snip>
> If you want the ratios on one per sector or one every 7.5 sectors, the
> ratios will need to change.

Right, thanks.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <F34UkSQDq1gFSlgOLN300005c8f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204221040090.12612-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Andrew MacLintock wrote:
> Obtrav:  All Marine Officers, in the entire force, attend one of the two or 
> three basic schools in the Imperium....

Is that realistic?  Given the cost of shipping a candidate across a
sector or two, I'd think the Imperium would prefer the expense of running
more schools so that one would be closer to home.
Great link, btw, though that's coming from someone who doesn't quite see
military service in his future.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420121558.A5360@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019491952.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Aha, so we have magically targeted changes in the rules of quantum
> > mechanics.
> 
> Yes, that's the one :)

Ok, just checking.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <20020422.091436.-170613.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:35:16 +1200 "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> > <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
> > >
> > > I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen 
> > > ? Drilling Platform?
> > > What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How 
> > > exactly would one> extract it from the subsurface? 
> > > Would there be any hazards?
> > 
> > One word - Praxis!
> 
> Um, sorry ?

Praxis - Klingon moon which blew up in ST-VI The Undiscovered Country.

Due to over mining, and poor safety prtocols.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019492558.5758.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
> "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:
> 
> > Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
> > eliminate poverty?
> 
> The government defines a poverty line.  People at and near that 
> point pay no income taxes.  Anyone with an income greater than 
> that pays a graduated tax, depending upon how far above it they 
> are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the 
> government (much like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any 
> money in) to give them money equal to being at the poverty line.  

Not quite; one idea behind negative income tax as I'm aware of it is that it's
supposed to eliminate the welfare effect where by getting a job, your income
doesn't improve.  Thus, if the poverty line is $10,000/year and you made less
than that, tax would be something like 50% of income - $5,000, so if you made
$2,000/year, your taxes would be -$4,000/year.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204221040090.12612-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019492780.113.ajackson@ping>

Gregory Carl Kettler writes:
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Andrew MacLintock wrote:
> > Obtrav:  All Marine Officers, in the entire force, attend one of the two
> > or  three basic schools in the Imperium....
> 
> Is that realistic? 

Sure.  It's a distributed school; you just have to realize that academy at
Regina and the academy at Dingir are the same school ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Frank Pitt wrote:

> Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> 
> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
> 
> Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
> <grin>
> 
I'd have to agree.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422085927.A5010@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220948240.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Rachel wrote:
>
> > His derisive tone, not the government's decision, was what irked me.
> 
> The derision was for the government's decision.

I thought so, too.  You don't get much more anti-homophobic than I am, but
I don't think being gay should get you money from the government.  
 
> Sheesh, I cannot believe I'm defending someone I've killfiled.

I hate it when that happens too, Robert.

Kiri :) 

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <OF5BF2A073.349D1856-ON85256BA3.005C2CDE@pheaa.org>





>> Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
>> > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
>>
>> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
>>
>> Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
>> <grin>
>>
>I'd have to agree.

Please forgive my stupidity but who or what is Shooter?







From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 11:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Mon Apr 22 10:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1ea22$d25c5a60$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Paul Walker
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 07:41
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] RAH and libertarianism

Although I (and probably many others) may want to
think and believe we would be in categories 1 or 2,
how many of us love our work, or feel compelled to
work enough that we could withstand the temptation to
be in category 3?  Not many, I would guess.

Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were
making an attempt at earning a living, and there is
your welfare bureaucracy.

Paul
------------------------------------------------------------

Put me in group 3.  Its not so much I hate working, its that nothing you
do nowadays makes any difference in your employment.  I've worked for
Kyocera, SHE, Hewlett-Packard, Agilent and AT&T and they are all the
same - use you until they no longer feel they need you, then dump you.

Yes, I am currently unemployed again.  AT&T a couple of years back was
worried that a rival ISP was coming in and they knew their customer
service sucked.  So they started hiring in-house technicians and toned
down their contractors.  Well Comcast basically merged with AT&T and
Time/Warner has no plans to compete here.

AT&T found itself sitting on a de facto monopoly, at least in the
Vancouver/Portland area, so they took it upon themselves to be rid of
their in-house employees and went back to the lack-luster contractors.
I and 15 of my co-workers found themselves not laid off but outright
fired for all sorts of stupid reasons.

I gave this company 110% like I always do as an employee, but here I am
again, unemployed.  There were days I started at 7am and got home after
midnight because I put the customers first and myself last.  Now I have
nothing to show for it.  HP and Agilent did similar things but at least
had the decency to lay us off.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do now with the job market so already
over-bloated with laid off workers.  I'm just tired of working for
companies that have absolutely no loyalty to their employees.

If anyone in the Portland/Vancouver area that is on this list hears
about any job that could use someone good with computers or telecom,
please email me off-list.

Thanks!

( j-man@attbi.com )






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 11:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr 22 10:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220948240.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <20020422085927.A5010@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422104155.009f3ec0@mindspring.com>

At 09:49 AM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:

>I thought so, too.  You don't get much more anti-homophobic than I am, but
>I don't think being gay should get you money from the government.

I don't know, the way some of the RR talks, we might be able to file for 
disability!

ObTrav: A world sees some common trait as being a horrible disadvantage 
(being left-handed, for ex) left handers are offered all sorts of 
government assistance, programs.. the good times end when the ship tries to 
leave.. the pilot is left-handed, and under law cannot operate the ship in 
the planet's airspace...

-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 12:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 22 11:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422104155.009f3ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDBDMAA.tml@downport.com>

You have that exactly backwards. The LL say it's physical, which might fall
under the ADA if you thinks it is handicapping you in some way. The RR (and
the Pope) say it is an act of the will, meaning sin.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
>
> I don't know, the way some of the RR talks, we might be able to file for
> disability!
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 13:42:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 12:42:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
References: <F262jQlc7vtdFq7ImxU00001228@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC46749.40007@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     Yet another example of typical Whipsnadian brain flatulence.  I ask 
> the kind folk of the TML to contact me off-List and then neglect to 
> provide the address.  Did I mention that my head comes to a point?
>     Thanks again for your help.

Uhhh...at least in _my_ mail client, Larsen's e-mail address

grote1731@hotmail.com

Is shown on each of his posts to the list...


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 13:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421173609.009ec3e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC468A1.8050409@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at the start of 
> the road march, how much will it weigh after 25 miles cross-country 
> through Korea in July?

Why the same as an unladen kitten perched on your chest, asleep.

5.67 tons. ;-)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
Message-ID: <200204222013.g3MKDLi02407@mailbag.com>

Hello all,

My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete the 
process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be spending the evening 
of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San Francisco. If there are any 
fellow Travellers who would care to get to gether with me that evening for beer 
and/or conversation, please let me know. 

Thanks!

William




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <DAV57DRtBBnmIahhPyO0001abc4@hotmail.com>

I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
before.

Gygax is very much to gaming as Kirby was to comics.


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV57DRtBBnmIahhPyO0001abc4@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_91614101==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
>growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
>before.

Mr. Weiss,

Without putting too fine a point on it, Mr. Gygax and TSR also ended up in 
litigation with Mr. Arneson about authorship and royalties about D&D - 
despite the fact that Arneson originated the concept and was listed as a 
co-author on the cover of the original game.  If that is "improving on what 
had come before" forgive me if I want to check to see if I have all my 
fingers when we're done shaking hands.

Even if you buy the argument that Gygax was somehow responsible for the 
"success" of D&D, you could build a case that TSR missed opportunity after 
opportunity to make it even bigger.  Or merely note the fact that the 
company was run into the ground, not once, but TWICE, despite their 
"success."  Add to that the antagonistic relationship that Gygax had with a 
great number of fans - many of whom are now successful game designers in 
their own right - and these conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)

To each their own, Mr. Weiss.

Victor Raymond


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_91614101==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I wasn't aware that Arneson made
D&amp;D a million dollar industry with still<br>
growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had
come<br>
before.</blockquote><br>
Mr. Weiss,<br><br>
Without putting too fine a point on it, Mr. Gygax and TSR also ended up
in litigation with Mr. Arneson about authorship and royalties about
D&amp;D - despite the fact that Arneson originated the concept and was
listed as a co-author on the cover of the original game.&nbsp; If that is
&quot;improving on what had come before&quot; forgive me if I want to
check to see if I have all my fingers when we're done shaking
hands.<br><br>
Even if you buy the argument that Gygax was somehow responsible for the
&quot;success&quot; of D&amp;D, you could build a case that TSR missed
opportunity after opportunity to make it even bigger.&nbsp; Or merely
note the fact that the company was run into the ground, not once, but
TWICE, despite their &quot;success.&quot;&nbsp; Add to that the
antagonistic relationship that Gygax had with a great number of fans -
many of whom are now successful game designers in their own right - and
these conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)<br><br>
To each their own, Mr. Weiss.<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_91614101==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422190106.A61D4279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote:

> --- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > End result: no one in the nation has an income that
> > is below the 
> > poverty line.  Also, the amount of taxes necessary
> > would not be 
> > that high, especially since the entire welfare
> > bureaucracy (which 
> > consumes a surprisingly high percentage of the money
> > allocated to 
> > this sector of the government) would be instantly
> > eliminated.
> 
> The only way I can see such a system working is if you
> ensure that those in the system are at least
> attempting to be employed.  That, then, requires that
> at least some of your welfare bureaucracy remain.  I'm
> not suggesting that our current system is better, just
> pointing out a possible problem.
> 
> Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is 10,000Cr. 
> If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away 10,000
> of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick.  In
> my mind, this situation would produce three types of
> people:

<snip> 

That would *only* be true if the median income was at the poverty 
line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.  The incentive to 
work would be have an income greater than the poverty line.  Most 
people want this and the percentage of people below the poverty 
line honestly isn't that high.  If the poverty live was 10,000 Cr, then 
someone earning 20,000 Cr would be far more likely to pay no 
more than 20% of their income in taxes, resulting in a net income 
of 16,000 Cr.  Assuming a wealth structure like that in the US, then 
if there was a reasonable tex system (ie one where the ultra-
wealthy could not use numerous loop holes to avoid paying any 
taxes) then that 20% could likely be reduced to 15% (for 20,000 
Cr), resulting in a net income of 17,000 Cr.  Those extra 6,000 or 
7,000 Cr can buy lots of nice things and many people will think 
them worth the effort.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019508300.7419.ajackson@ping>

For reference on negative income tax:

http://www.indiapolicy.org/lists/india_policy/2000/Jun/msg00007.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:48:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:48:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
Message-ID: <20020422.134355.-170613.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

William

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:13:20 GMT wlewis@mailbag.com writes:
> Hello all,
> 
> My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to
complete the process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be
spending the evening of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San
Francisco. If there are any  fellow Travellers who would care to get to
gether with me that evening for beer and/or conversation, please let me
know. 
> 
> Thanks!

Congrats!!!

I pray your journey be safe, productive, and fulfilling to you, your
wife, and especially your new baby boy.

My best to you all. The world would improve greatly if it followed your
example.

Chaplain Bari

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV84RtKdLWPo08EOTq0001acff@hotmail.com>

Mr. Raymond,

Without putting too fine a point on it either, you seem to be confusing a
number of business policies more properly attributed to other people at TSR,
who among other things wound up unsucessfully suing Mr. Gygax over the game
he created upon being forced out of TSR, with the actions of Mr. Gygax
himself.
You seem to wish to ignore that Mr. Arneson had nothing to do with
expansions of the game following the initial publication.
As for the running of the company into the ground, this very specifically
happened when people other than Mr. Gygax were running the company.
Concerning his antagonistic relationship with fans as well as game
designers, from what I've witnessed this is a combination of Mr. Gygax being
right about a number of things he said, and some rather intense jealously.
More than one would be fanboy or sycophant has tried sucking up and been
rebuffed for getting something wrong and subsequently become an ardent
internet defamer of Mr. Gygax and his works. As well, the professional
jealousy of game designers whose command of the English language resembles
that of a 3 year old when compared to Mr. Gygax, not to mention the truly
questionable quality of some of their designs, should be highly suspect to
anyone with a discerning eye.

Is Gary a perfect person, always polite, and always humble about his
accomplishments?
No.
Do I agree with everything he has ever said?
No.
Did he define multiple aspects of a hobby genre like Jack Kirby defined
comics?
Definitely.

To each their own indeed. And for me, that is the most definitely Gary
Gygax, whether he is sending me blistering flames or fullsome praises.


Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 01:32:49PM -0700
References: <20020422190106.A61D4279B9@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020422145517.A5794@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 01:32:49PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> That would *only* be true if the median income was at the poverty
> line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.  The incentive
> to work would be have an income greater than the poverty line.

I believe it was meant as a reductio ad absurdem.  That is, by making
x=100, it demonstrated the worst possible case.  Even if the tax rate
on earnings over the poverty line is only 1%, then for every $100 more
of work I put in I only get $99.  As the rate goes up, so does the
disincentive.  The practical effect is that less work gets done than
ideally should.

This is a problem with any tax, and is insurmountable.  There are
other, worse problems with no taxes.

> If the poverty live was 10,000 Cr, then someone earning 20,000 Cr
> would be far more likely to pay no more than 20% of their income in
> taxes, resulting in a net income of 16,000 Cr.

A net income of 16,000 Cr for 20,000 Cr worth of work.

> Those extra 6,000 or 7,000 Cr can buy lots of nice things and many
> people will think them worth the effort.

But is it worth 10,000 Cr worth of work for 6,000 Cr worth of credits?

I'm not anti-taxes; they're a necessary evil.  But it's important to
realise the very bad efects taxation has on an economy.  Ideally
taxation (and therefore, the public sector) would be limited to a few
percent of GDP, so as to minimise the deleterious economic effects
thereof.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A person who's interested only in books doesn't need other people...
                           --Arturo Perez-Reverte, The Club Dumas

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:00:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:00:24 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <3CC478B9.9010306@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Victor Jason Raymond wrote:
> At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
> 
>> I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
>> growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
>> before.

snip


> Add to that the antagonistic relationship that Gygax had 
> with a great number of fans - many of whom are now successful game 
> designers in their own right - and these conclusions look pretty dice-y. 
> (so to speak)

Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on this) 
  had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
role-playing industry.

Very likely there would have been no card came industry ("Magic-the 
gathering of spare cash", etc)

It was a runaway success that paved the way for everything else since, 
TSR mis-steps or not.

(Yes, I know it's runaway success was proof there was a huge untapped 
market for it out there, but that is the nature of runaway 
successes....'Trivial Pursuit' was also a runaway success, despite a 
host of similar games like it on the market in the past that didn't take 
off.)

I myself was introduced to Traveller as '...like D&D, only SF, with 
starships and fusion guns...'

Like it or not, the *one* thing that springs to the average person's 
mind when they heard the term 'role playing game' is D&D.

Well, that and '..sallow, spindly geek with no life..', but I digress...

(and I'm not sallow, and (alas) long passed the 'spindly' stage...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
References: <200204222013.g3MKDLi02407@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <3CC479F7.6090906@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

wlewis@mailbag.com wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete the 
> process to adopt a baby boy. 

Congratulations!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <3CC478B9.9010306@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_94568000==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 01:55 PM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Victor Jason Raymond wrote:
>>At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>>I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
>>>growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
>>>before.
>
>snip
>
>
>>Add to that the antagonistic relationship that Gygax had with a great 
>>number of fans - many of whom are now successful game designers in their 
>>own right - and these conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)
>
>Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on 
>this)  had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
>role-playing industry.

<nods>

Dear Bruce (and an aside to Mr. Weiss),

I would definitely agree with you about this.  My point is that if you 
should praise Gygax, you ought to also praise David L. Arneson, as well - 
it's only fair.  Gygax wouldn't have had D&D if Arneson had not started 
doing Blackmoor.  And there is a fair bit to point out that isn't so 
praiseworthy.

Victor


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_94568000==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 01:55 PM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Victor Jason Raymond wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you
wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I wasn't aware that Arneson made
D&amp;D a million dollar industry with still<br>
growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had
come<br>
before.</blockquote></blockquote><br>
snip<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Add to that the antagonistic
relationship that Gygax had with a great number of fans - many of whom
are now successful game designers in their own right - and these
conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)</blockquote><br>
Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on
this)&nbsp; had there been no D&amp;D, there very likely would have been
*no* role-playing industry.</blockquote><br>
&lt;nods&gt;<br><br>
Dear Bruce (and an aside to Mr. Weiss),<br><br>
I would definitely agree with you about this.&nbsp; My point is that if
you should praise Gygax, you ought to also praise David L. Arneson, as
well - it's only fair.&nbsp; Gygax wouldn't have had D&amp;D if Arneson
had not started doing Blackmoor.&nbsp; And there is a fair bit to point
out that isn't so praiseworthy.<br><br>
Victor<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_94568000==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:20:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:20:29 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <200204222116.ETY00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip Gygax stuff>

Well, the basic lesson that I see in the whole Gygax thing
is never, ever run a company and staff it with your friends.  
I did that with my own software startup, and it was the worst 
mistake I ever made in my life.

Either that, or I'm not a very good judge of character.  But 
to be on the safe side, don't make your friends your business 
partners.

Greed is a curious thing, and most people are not as immune 
to it as they might imagine.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV84RtKdLWPo08EOTq0001acff@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161637.04bc1d60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_94973383==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 04:53 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Mr. Raymond,
>
>Without putting too fine a point on it either, you seem to be confusing a
>number of business policies more properly attributed to other people at TSR,
>who among other things wound up unsucessfully suing Mr. Gygax over the game
>he created upon being forced out of TSR, with the actions of Mr. Gygax
>himself.

Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the 
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.  Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR when Mr. 
Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and co-authorship.

>You seem to wish to ignore that Mr. Arneson had nothing to do with
>expansions of the game following the initial publication.

Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and co-authorship.  TSR 
and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.

>As for the running of the company into the ground, this very specifically
>happened when people other than Mr. Gygax were running the company.

I will grant you that.  The Blume Brothers did not exactly paint themselves 
in glory.

>Concerning his antagonistic relationship with fans as well as game
>designers, from what I've witnessed this is a combination of Mr. Gygax being
>right about a number of things he said, and some rather intense jealously.

Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with 
a straight face.

>More than one would be fanboy or sycophant has tried sucking up and been
>rebuffed for getting something wrong and subsequently become an ardent
>internet defamer of Mr. Gygax and his works.

Not the people I am referring to.  Do keep in mind the dispute between TSR 
and Chaosium regarding the Lovecraftian Mythos, etc. (which involved the 
Lovecraft estate and Mr. Moorcock's solicitors), just as an example of 
something other than your generalization.

>As well, the professional
>jealousy of game designers whose command of the English language resembles
>that of a 3 year old when compared to Mr. Gygax, not to mention the truly
>questionable quality of some of their designs, should be highly suspect to
>anyone with a discerning eye.

Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?


>Is Gary a perfect person, always polite, and always humble about his
>accomplishments?
>No.
>Do I agree with everything he has ever said?
>No.
>Did he define multiple aspects of a hobby genre like Jack Kirby defined
>comics?
>Definitely.

And this is where we must part company.

Cheers!

Victor Raymond


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_94973383==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 04:53 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Mr. Raymond,<br><br>
Without putting too fine a point on it either, you seem to be confusing
a<br>
number of business policies more properly attributed to other people at
TSR,<br>
who among other things wound up unsucessfully suing Mr. Gygax over the
game<br>
he created upon being forced out of TSR, with the actions of Mr.
Gygax<br>
himself.</blockquote><br>
Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.&nbsp; Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR
when Mr. Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and
co-authorship.&nbsp; <br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>You seem to wish to ignore that Mr.
Arneson had nothing to do with<br>
expansions of the game following the initial
publication.</blockquote><br>
Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and
co-authorship.&nbsp; TSR and Arneson settled out of court for a
considerable sum.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As for the running of the company
into the ground, this very specifically<br>
happened when people other than Mr. Gygax were running the
company.</blockquote><br>
I will grant you that.&nbsp; The Blume Brothers did not exactly paint
themselves in glory.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Concerning his antagonistic
relationship with fans as well as game<br>
designers, from what I've witnessed this is a combination of Mr. Gygax
being<br>
right about a number of things he said, and some rather intense
jealously.</blockquote><br>
Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again
with a straight face.&nbsp; <br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>More than one would be fanboy or
sycophant has tried sucking up and been<br>
rebuffed for getting something wrong and subsequently become an
ardent<br>
internet defamer of Mr. Gygax and his works.</blockquote><br>
Not the people I am referring to.&nbsp; Do keep in mind the dispute
between TSR and Chaosium regarding the Lovecraftian Mythos, etc. (which
involved the Lovecraft estate and Mr. Moorcock's solicitors), just as an
example of something other than your generalization.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As well, the professional<br>
jealousy of game designers whose command of the English language
resembles<br>
that of a 3 year old when compared to Mr. Gygax, not to mention the
truly<br>
questionable quality of some of their designs, should be highly suspect
to<br>
anyone with a discerning eye.</blockquote><br>
Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Is Gary a perfect person, always
polite, and always humble about his<br>
accomplishments?<br>
No.<br>
Do I agree with everything he has ever said?<br>
No.<br>
Did he define multiple aspects of a hobby genre like Jack Kirby
defined<br>
comics?<br>
Definitely.</blockquote><br>
And this is where we must part company.<br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_94973383==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Neural Guns
Message-ID: <2237.1019490155@www44.gmx.net>

Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen,

I've got questions regarding Neural Weaponry.

All my knowledge is based on the few lines of Weapons Description and the
two inserts into the Weapons Price Table in the Imperial Encyclopedia/MT.

The Stats I could work out are...
Neural Pistol-16
no AmmoNotes, ? Rds, Pen/Att 10/-, special (but known) Dmg, MaxRange Long,
no AutofireTargets, no DangerSpace, Low Signature, Low Recoil, Difficulty as
Handgun
Neural Rifle-16
no AmmoNotes, ? Rds, Pen/Att 10/-, special (but known) Dmg, MaxRange Long,
no AutofireTargets, no Danger Space, LowSignature, Low Recoil, Difficulty as
Rifle
...just to show, that I thought before consulting TML

So now :

Are there any 'official' stats/rules regarding neural guns (probably hidden
in some secret supplement I don't know - there are many of these)?

My problem lies in (s.a.) ? Rds - How much ammunition does a neural pistol
or rifle pack? I think it would need a power pack, as energy weapons, which
would correspond roughly with the ammunition price and weight stated in the
weapons price table(?) How many shots per pack? Are there integral (or only
integral) versions, and how much shots would these have?

I'd be glad, if you shared your knowledge or opinion,
bye, Sebastian

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:31:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:31:38 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <200204222116.ETY00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422162357.04be58d0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_95312126==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 05:16 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
><snip Gygax stuff>
>
>Well, the basic lesson that I see in the whole Gygax thing
>is never, ever run a company and staff it with your friends.

Very very very true.  One thing that a friend who grew up in Lake Geneva 
once told me was that Don Kay (the "K" in the original "G/K" logo for TSR) 
was the only fellow that Mr. Gygax would listen to back then, in the case 
of disputes.  Kay died rather suddenly (see his obit in Strategic Review 
#2) - it would have been very very interesting to see how things might have 
turned out had he lived.

>
>I did that with my own software startup, and it was the worst
>mistake I ever made in my life.
>
>Either that, or I'm not a very good judge of character.  But
>to be on the safe side, don't make your friends your business
>partners.

Good advice.

There's gotta be an ObTrav for this - perhaps never hire your friends as 
crew for your Free Trader?  (But that would undermine most parties of 
adventurers!  Or is this merely an observation that the sorts of trouble 
the average group gets into is merely to be expected?  Oh, the 
possibilities....:))

Victor

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_95312126==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 05:16 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&lt;snip Gygax stuff&gt;<br><br>
Well, the basic lesson that I see in the whole Gygax thing<br>
is never, ever run a company and staff it with your friends.
</blockquote><br>
Very very very true.&nbsp; One thing that a friend who grew up in Lake
Geneva once told me was that Don Kay (the &quot;K&quot; in the original
&quot;G/K&quot; logo for TSR) was the only fellow that Mr. Gygax would
listen to back then, in the case of disputes.&nbsp; Kay died rather
suddenly (see his obit in Strategic Review #2) - it would have been very
very interesting to see how things might have turned out had he
lived.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&nbsp;<br>
I did that with my own software startup, and it was the worst <br>
mistake I ever made in my life.<br><br>
Either that, or I'm not a very good judge of character.&nbsp; But <br>
to be on the safe side, don't make your friends your business <br>
partners.</blockquote><br>
Good advice.<br><br>
There's gotta be an ObTrav for this - perhaps never hire your friends as
crew for your Free Trader?&nbsp; (But that would undermine most parties
of adventurers!&nbsp; Or is this merely an observation that the sorts of
trouble the average group gets into is merely to be expected?&nbsp; Oh,
the possibilities....:))<br><br>
Victor<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_95312126==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:34:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:34:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
> 1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
> (b) working because they are not concerned with the money aspect of
> the work, but are motivated by something else entirely.

Put me down as a 1b, shifting very rapidly into 3 due to my employer's
incompetence.


> 3.  Loafers (Very Large Majority)
>      These people realize that no matter how much (or how little)
> they work, they will get at least enough money to subsist

... true already in many countries ...


> and if they earn more, the government is likely to take it all from
> them.

More true under the current system (at least in Aus) than under the
proposed one.  Under the proposed system, if you work more you *will*
earn more, as opposed to Australia's current system where you can
often earn less.  Still, even Australia has unemployment less than
10%, most of it transient.  High, but hardly the "Very Large
Majority".


> Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were making an
> attempt at earning a living,

The fact that you get to increase your income substantially if you
work is reason enough.  As Mr. Uhl points out, you won't keep 100% of
your income, which is true for any government that imposes taxation.
It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
some part-time workers.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
In-Reply-To: <200204222013.g3MKDLi02407@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422144908.009e84c0@mindspring.com>

At 08:13 PM 4/22/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete 
>the
>process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be spending the evening
>of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San Francisco. If there are any
>fellow Travellers who would care to get to gether with me that evening for 
>beer
>and/or conversation, please let me know.

There are a few of us about..

Contact me by personal email and we'll work something out.  I'll forward 
this to the Traveller in SF list.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

>> and if they earn more, the government is likely to take it all from
>> them.
>
>More true under the current system (at least in Aus) than under the
>proposed one.  Under the proposed system, if you work more you *will*
>earn more, as opposed to Australia's current system where you can
>often earn less.  Still, even Australia has unemployment less than
>10%, most of it transient.  High, but hardly the "Very Large
>Majority".

But that is 10% of the working population. Add in people on disability
and women who stay home taking care of kids (which is a full-time job,
but means that they have to be supported form somewhere) and the
unemployed suddenly rises dramatically. In Norway for example we
have almost 1 million people (out of 4.5 million population) on
disability (full time and part time). And that is what is breaking
our backs. Most of those people would be able to work full time
but since they can get away with a check from the state due to
disability......

>> Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were making an
>> attempt at earning a living,
>
>The fact that you get to increase your income substantially if you
>work is reason enough.  As Mr. Uhl points out, you won't keep 100% of
>your income, which is true for any government that imposes taxation.
>It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
>some part-time workers.

True, so true. But the wierd thing is that those people have to get
that money back from the state somehow, as social security or what ever
to survive. It's the state taking money and then giving it back again!

Tommy Grav


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <20020422.182803.-145167.1.Knightsky@juno.com>


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Kiri Aradia Morgan
<tiamat@tsoft.com> writes:
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Frank Pitt wrote:
> 
> > Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> > > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> > 
> > Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
> > 
> > Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
> > <grin>
> > 
> I'd have to agree.

Seconded.

                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:36:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:36:46 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <20020422.182803.-145167.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:50:37 -0400 "William Lane" <wlane@aessuccess.org>
writes:
> 
> >> Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> >> > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> >>
> >> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
> >>
> >> Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
> >> <grin>
> >>
> >I'd have to agree.
> 
> Please forgive my stupidity but who or what is Shooter?

Jim Shooter, editor-in-chief of Marvel Comics during the late 70s & early
80's.  Not without his virtues and talents, he is nonetheless known for
his heavy-handed, sledgehammer approach to acting as editor, and has
managed to alienate to this day many of the creative people in the comics
industry. 



                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"







________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:39:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:39:37 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on 
> this) had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
> role-playing industry.

I'm not certain I agree with this.  I've seen different accounts of
various proto-RPGs pre-1973 (and unfortunately, no, I don't have sources
to quote at the moment - sorry); the idea for a RPG did not spring solely
from Arnenson and Gygax... they were simply the first to *market* the
idea. 

I believe that RPGs *would* have eventually been published by other
people even if D&D had never existed, they would have simply appeared a
few years later.  And... if D&D had not been the first, then perhaps the
rest of the industry would not have needed to spend so much effort the
last 3 decades trying desperately to get away from the various clunky
aspects of D&D that Gygax pushed as being "the one true way" of
roleplaying...

> Very likely there would have been no card came industry ("Magic-the 
> gathering of spare cash", etc)

And this is a bad thing HOW...?  ;-)


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:52:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:52:11 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204221544240.16983-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 knightsky@juno.com wrote:

> > Very likely there would have been no card came industry ("Magic-the 
> > gathering of spare cash", etc)
> 
> And this is a bad thing HOW...?  ;-)

Well, the introduction of those awful CCG's freed up a lot of my evenings,
(because my gaming group turned into Magic zombies) and I got married
shortly after that...

yeah, right.

Nuke 'em.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:56:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:56:07 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <200204222116.ETY00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204221546070.16983-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Greed is a curious thing, and most people are not as immune 
> to it as they might imagine.

No, they aren't, and all kinds of human emotions that don't obviously have
any connection to the issue are tied up in money and business.  Doing
business together will either solidify or completely destroy a family, a
friendship, a marriage, or a lovers' bond.  It is like sleeping with your
best friend after 10+ years of platonic friendship; the reward if you
succeed and it all works out is truly wonderful, but the risk is your
heart and your spirit, and braver souls than me or thee have declined to
take it.

Kiri ^_^ (who worked on a small press magazine with two men, best friends
who are still best friends-- one of whom is now her ex-fiance and the
other her ex-husband, and still adores them both-- from the other side of
the continent.)

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>
References: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net> <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <20020423090608.A5160@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tim wrote:
[...regarding "group 3"...]
> > Still, even Australia has unemployment less than 10%, most of it
> >transient.  High, but hardly the "Very Large Majority".

Tommy Grav wrote:
> But that is 10% of the working population. Add in people on
> disability

... who are already being paid for by the government anyway, so no
extra cost there, and most of whom wouldn't be able to work if they
wanted to.  Hence the majority of them are not in group 3.


> and women who stay home taking care of kids

At the moment, they're already surviving.  Either by husbands (who
hence have a lower disposable income) or by the government.  Either
way, they're already accounted for.  They are also certainly not in
group 3!


> >It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
> >some part-time workers.
> 
> True, so true. But the wierd thing is that those people have to get
> that money back from the state somehow,

No, they don't.  That's the point; it's the ones who don't work at all
who get the money from the state.  I'll give an example:

An unemployed person (e.g, me) got about A$170/week in direct cash
benefits, about $40/week in rent assistance, paid 50% less for public
transport, up to 90% less on medicines, and further 10-50% concessions
on a range of things as diverse as internet access, movie tickets,
house insurance, power, and telephone bills.  His net income was $210
per week.  (If this person had a child, he/she would get the full
child care subsidy, quite a substantial amount.  But I'm not
personally familiar with exactly how much so I'll leave it out).

Suppose he works part time.  His employment income is say A$300 per
week, but the government takes income taxes of about $50/week from
that.  He no longer receives unemployment benefits, rent assistance,
and would receive greatly reduced child care allowance (again, leaving
it out due to lack of personal experience).  He pays full price for
public transport, various utility bills, medical expenses, and other
things adding up to about $70/week.  He no longer receives any rent
assistance.  After living expenses, his net income has dropped by $30
compared with unemployment.

So for $300 worth of work (about 15-20 hours), he nets $30 *less* than
if he was unemployed, thus keeping -10% of the wages from his extra
effort.  That's still enough to survive on, but *extremely*
discouraging.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 17:19:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:19:40 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CC499EA.1020901@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>>Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on 
>>this) had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
>>role-playing industry.
> 
> 
> I'm not certain I agree with this.  I've seen different accounts of
> various proto-RPGs pre-1973 (and unfortunately, no, I don't have sources
> to quote at the moment - sorry); the idea for a RPG did not spring solely
> from Arnenson and Gygax... they were simply the first to *market* the
> idea. 

I never said they were the only source, merely the first _wildly 
successful_ one. Quality is no guarantee of success, witness MS Windows 
and AOL.

Neither of them were the first in their genre, nor even the best, but 
there is little doubt that they are the 800 pound gorillas of the market.

D&D may not have been pure in a mechanical sense, but like BASIC, and 
'You have SPAM!' it is now the de-facto standard of comparison..the 
reason it got there is because it was 'the fustest with the mostest'.

(says an old-timer who remembers back when 'September on the Net' 
actually meant that it was, indeed, September...ahh those halcyon 
pre-AOL, pre-Prodigy, pre-Compuserv days...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 17:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Product Announcement
Message-ID: <016701c1ea59$53179d50$969393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0162_01C1EA61.9C2DD060
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Just a quick note to inform the Traveller community that we (Quiklink =
Interactive) will be putting the first "LBB PDF" up for sale in a few =
days.

This will be "Traveller's Aide #1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space"

Designed specifically for use with CT and T20, most of the information =
within is compatible with any version of Traveller; stats can be =
converted from CT to other rules sets as necessary.

Contents include:

- Extra combat rules
- Details of weapon scanner technologies and how to beat them
- A selection of large and small arms firms within the Imperium
- Some unique or special weapons
- The Imperial Weapons Permit System,=20
- A comprehensive guide to smallarms and melee weapons, with compiled CT =
and T20 data tables for all the weapons listed.

More news is available on the Quiklink website: =
http://www.travellerrpg.com/


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses

------=_NextPart_000_0162_01C1EA61.9C2DD060
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just&nbsp;a quick note to inform the =
Traveller=20
community that we (Quiklink Interactive) will be putting the first "LBB =
PDF" up=20
for sale in a few days.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This will be "Traveller's Aide #1: =
Personal Weapons=20
of Charted Space"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Designed specifically for use with CT =
and T20, most=20
of the information within is compatible with any version of Traveller; =
stats can=20
be converted from CT to other rules sets as necessary.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Contents include:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Extra combat rules</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Details of weapon scanner =
technologies and how to=20
beat them</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- A selection of large and small arms =
firms within=20
the Imperium</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Some unique or special =
weapons</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- The Imperial Weapons Permit System, =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-&nbsp;A comprehensive guide to =
smallarms and melee=20
weapons, with compiled CT and T20 data tables for all the weapons=20
listed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>More news is available on the Quiklink =
website: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.travellerrpg.com/">http://www.travellerrpg.com/</A></F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0162_01C1EA61.9C2DD060--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:06:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:06:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Neural Guns
References: <20020422220007.4ED0F279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC4A483.8DEF4B63@earthlink.net>

S.Feige

> Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
> I've got questions regarding Neural Weaponry.
> 
> All my knowledge is based on the few lines of Weapons Description and the
> two inserts into the Weapons Price Table in the Imperial Encyclopedia/MT.
> 
> The Stats I could work out are...

Even though someone's probably already answered your questions, I
thought I'd post anyway. Apologies for any waste of bandwidth.

Challenge #46 has them worked up in detail for MT. The specs are:

Neural weapons have 2 settings: stun and kill.

Stun will inflict as many damage points as necessary to render
the target unconscious, up to the weapon's limit.

Kill inflicts the full damage pont capability, whatever the
target's condition.

Should a mishap occur (marginal success), roll 2D on the Mishap
Table. Whether the damage modifier is added or subtracted can
be determined randomly or using Murphy's Law. If the intention
was to stun, increase damage; if the intention was to kill,
decrease damage.

TL   Type           Psi-Pen   DMs             Dam   Difficulty
---------------------------------------------------------------
16   Neural Rifle     10      As direct fire   7    Rifle
16   Neural Pistol    10      As direct fire   5    Handgun


David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
References: <20020422190106.A61D4279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002601c1ea5d$32d89f40$d3b18b90@computer>

> From: Steven Hudson
>   Given the role of the army in political strife in the later Empire,
> maybe the empire would have functioned better without any of those
> classes in the legions :|

Look how well it worked when they replaced them with barbarians.  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <200204221459.g3MExjP00155@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3CC55510.8412.A77E03@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002 at 7:58, Steven Hudson wrote:
>   That's why I went with "arguably" - it can be presented either way,
> with the big issue being whether some of those positions (eg, a Roman
> centurion) were officers or NCO's. By the social standards of the
> non-professionals in command (& staff) at Legion level they were only
> commoners for almost all purposes, but the Legion could sooner function
> without any of those patricians or equites than it could with even half
> of the centurionate absent.
> 
>   Given the role of the army in political strife in the later Empire,
> maybe the empire would have functioned better without any of those
> classes in the legions :|

Well the importance of even centurions in much of that strife argues 
for them being considered officers - very few coups in the modern world 
are started and managed by sergeants.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:38:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:38:29 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC55510.9619.A77EB7@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 7:29, Timothy Little wrote:

> The fact that you get to increase your income substantially if you
> work is reason enough.  As Mr. Uhl points out, you won't keep 100% of
> your income, which is true for any government that imposes taxation.
> It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
> some part-time workers.

Doesn't quite happen in NZ, but even ignoring GST (being a sales tax 
it's relatively invisible most of the time) the effective tax rate for 
being a low-income part-time worker can be up around 85%.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:41:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:41:12 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002 at 7:41, Paul Walker wrote:
> Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is 10,000Cr. 
> If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away 10,000
> of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick.  In
> my mind, this situation would produce three types of
> people:

You're assuming that 50% of the population does no work, here.
 
> 1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
>      These people continue to earn as much as they
> can, either (a) hoping that maybe the government will
> not need all of it to pay for those not at poverty
> level and that they will get to keep the extra
> (doubtful) or (b) working because they are not
> concerned with the money aspect of the work, but are
> motivated by something else entirely.

Why is it doubtful?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423090608.A5160@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <3CC55776.26351.B0DA34@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 9:06, Timothy Little wrote:
> An unemployed person (e.g, me) got about A$170/week in direct cash
> benefits, about $40/week in rent assistance, paid 50% less for public
> transport, up to 90% less on medicines, and further 10-50% concessions
> on a range of things as diverse as internet access, movie tickets,
> house insurance, power, and telephone bills.  His net income was $210
> per week.  (If this person had a child, he/she would get the full
> child care subsidy, quite a substantial amount.  But I'm not
> personally familiar with exactly how much so I'll leave it out).

Now I know why New Zealanders were so keen on going to Aussie to loaf 
round on the dole and surf (or so the Aussie government would like 
everyone to think). Here the base rate for an over 25 is (IIRC) NZ$157 
per week, rent support of about 1/3 of your rent. There's also 
considerable subsidy on your medicines (over and above what everyone 
gets), and some on public transport, but that's about it.
 
> Suppose he works part time.  His employment income is say A$300 per
> week, but the government takes income taxes of about $50/week from
> that.  He no longer receives unemployment benefits, rent assistance,
> and would receive greatly reduced child care allowance (again, leaving
> it out due to lack of personal experience).  He pays full price for
> public transport, various utility bills, medical expenses, and other
> things adding up to about $70/week.  He no longer receives any rent
> assistance.  After living expenses, his net income has dropped by $30
> compared with unemployment.
> 
> So for $300 worth of work (about 15-20 hours), he nets $30 *less* than
> if he was unemployed, thus keeping -10% of the wages from his extra
> effort.  That's still enough to survive on, but *extremely*
> discouraging.

We just have a (low) point after which you lose 70% of your dole for 
each dollar (gross) that you earn. You also lose the rent assistance at 
a smaller rate at the same time, and IIRC that starts as soon as you 
earn any money. The only reason this doesn't give an effective rate of 
over 100% is that the rent assistance is usually all gone by the time 
the reduction in the dole starts. Still working on a minimum wage job 
for an in-the-hand hourly rate of about NZ$1.00 - 1.50 isn't very 
encouraging.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Product Announcement
In-Reply-To: <016701c1ea59$53179d50$969393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <016701c1ea59$53179d50$969393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <200204222051330083.CE6F127D@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 4/23/2002 at 12:55 AM MJ Dougherty wrote:

>Just a quick note to inform the Traveller community that we (Quiklink=
 Interactive) will be putting the first "LBB PDF" up for sale in a few=
 days.
>
>This will be "Traveller's Aide #1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space"
>
>Designed specifically for use with CT and T20, most of the information=
 within is compatible with any version of Traveller; stats can be converted=
 from CT to other rules sets as necessary.

For those interested, I have just put up a preliminary webpage for this=
 product with a small sample of 3 pages (and the cover)

http://www.TravellerRPG.com/PDF/ta0001.html

As Martin noted, this PDF should be available for purchase within the next=
 2-3 days

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020423005500.10756.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 03:35 PM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Pilots are officers because the military does not
> >want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> >flying a $30 million airplane when it
> crashed.....even
> >though the average fighter jock is holding
> essentially
> >the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
> >arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
> >that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
> >wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
> >why........
> 
> That being said, during WWII the Germans used
> enlisted pilots, as did the 
> RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying
> sergeants, since they thought 
> there was no reason to tie up perfectly good
> officers in what was 
> essentially a technical skill.  That died as
> carriers came to the fore, and 
> more Marines came to be stationed on ships. Many of
> the old Flying 
> Sergeants received reserve commissions as officers,
> while retaining their 
> permanent rank as enlisted men.
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       
>
  >>
  ...My point....MAC
  >>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:59:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:59:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <008201c1e814$658fd700$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020423005823.20768.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > From: Michael Cessna
> >   Pilots are officers because the military does
> not
> > want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> > flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....
> 
> No.  The 'pilots are officers' thing dates all the
> way back to the
> beginnings of military aviation.
> 
> The logic, presumably, was that a pilot was a
> gentleman and an educated
> professional, of a higher social class to the mere
> tradesmen and mechanics
> that worked on the ground.
> 
> There have been exceptions - "Flight Sergeants"
> occasionally served as
> pilots in WWII.
> 
> Winston Churchill's comments on Naval Tradition
> apply to the traditions of
> other services too, to a considerable extent.  Don't
> try to find present day
> logic in them.
> 
> Alan Bradley
> 
  >>
  Actually, it dates from almost the beginning of
Marine Aviation. While the first Marine (and Naval)
Aviator was an officer, he was quickly followed in
Central American service, by enlisted pilots. This
tradition, although frowned upon by the Navy,
continued until just after the end of WW2.

   MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] officer selection traits
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020422200846.039e5b10@pop.wizard.net>

Hey!  Thanks for posting that link earlier to the Inc. magazine article 
about what the USMC looks for in officer selection.  The Robert E. Lee they 
talk about used to be my OIC fifteen years ago or so.  He was a major then 
and I was a corporal.  He is one of the finest officers I'll ever have the 
honor to meet.  (My father, both my grandfathers, my uncles, and lots of 
other blood relations were career officers themselves, so that was not an 
idle compliment.)  Yeah, I'm sure Bob Lee had leadership traits, judgment, 
and management ability in spades even back when he was a boot lieutenant 
barely old enough to shave.

I still remember him describing that assignment aboard that freighter full 
of refugees and adrift in the Phillipine Sea in 1975.  It was classified 
for a long time, but eventually it was declassified and eventually after 
that someone persuaded him to write it up for the Marine Corps 
Gazette.  Bob Lee was never a self promoter, the description you read in 
the Inc magazine article is very, very toned down from what happened.  The 
Gazette article has some of the more gut wrenching stuff left out, too.

I've used that incident and Bob Lee more than once in my own gaming.  It's 
the stuff of high adventure.

The only reason I've ever been able to find for having the incident 
classified was to avoid political embarrassment.  Reasons of national 
defense really didn't apply.  If you want to research the Marine Corps 
Gazette article that Bob Lee wrote about it, search for an article written 
by Robert E. Lee (I believe major at the time) published in the late 
1980s.  I recommend it as a small Traveller adventure.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <200204230113.EUF04788@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Kiri Aradia Morgan says
>Kiri ^_^ (who worked on a small press magazine with two men, 
>best friends who are still best friends-- one of whom is now 
>her ex-fiance and the other her ex-husband, and still adores 
>them both-- from the other side of the continent.)
>

Ah, I know that one.  My ex-wife, on very hot summer days, 
would say, "I love you from over here."
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV66kY7QNSljIazjBl0001b1b6@hotmail.com>

Victor Raymond wrote,

>I would definitely agree with you about this.  My point is that if you
should praise Gygax, you ought to also praise David L. Arneson, as well -
it's only fair.  Gygax wouldn't have had D&D if Arneson had not started
doing Blackmoor.  And there is a fair bit to point out that isn't so
praiseworthy.<

Then the complaint should be that the quote should read "Gygax and Arneson
are to gaming what Kirby and Lee were to comics", not that the half
presented is someone false.

>Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.  Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR when Mr.
Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and co-authorship.<
and,
>Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and co-authorship.  TSR
and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.<

Not according to what I've heard.
Which is that Arneson wished no part in developing the game into what became
AD&D. Thus the desire to not continue paying royalties when he was doing no
work.
While there is likely more to it than that, the point is there may be
another view.

>I will grant you that.  The Blume Brothers did not exactly paint themselves
in glory.<

And don't forget Lorraine Williams.

>Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with
a straight face. <

If you mean "Chess, Poker, and the AD&D game system", then I not only say
that with a straight face, I submit it as proof of my position.
The simple fact is, however poorly it may have been stated or received, Gary
was absolutely right. The proof of that is in the development of the RPGA
and the Living City Campaign, which required a single, standard set of
rules, with little to no variation, in order to organize and manage a
national campaign.
The only problem with what Gary said was there was no organization to make
what he said stick.

>Not the people I am referring to.  Do keep in mind the dispute between TSR
and Chaosium regarding the Lovecraftian Mythos, etc. (which involved the
Lovecraft estate and Mr. Moorcock's solicitors), just as an example of
something other than your generalization.<

I am aware of that.
Are you aware that Gary contacted Chaosium and negotiated a mutual promotion
to resolve the matter but the Blumes squashed the deal because they didn't
want to give any support to anyone else?

>Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?<

Is that really necessary?

I wish to refute various assertions as to the failures of Gary Gygax that
are, quite simply tainted by a less than positive view of the individual. If
we are to judge by that standard, then I don't think anyone will survive.
Whatever Gary's failings as an individual might be, they most certainly do
not detract from his accomplishments as a game designer.
Further, when that is what people use to diminish those accomplishments, it
does, to me, speak more of their failings than the person they are seeking
to tear down.


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <200204230113.EUF04788@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204221831540.3200-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Kiri Aradia Morgan says
> >Kiri ^_^ (who worked on a small press magazine with two men, 
> >best friends who are still best friends-- one of whom is now 
> >her ex-fiance and the other her ex-husband, and still adores 
> >them both-- from the other side of the continent.)
> >
> 
> Ah, I know that one.  My ex-wife, on very hot summer days, 
> would say, "I love you from over here."

:)

ikaros is one of my dearest friends in the world, actually.  But turns out
he's gay, not bi, so the marriage didn't quite work out like we thought it
would.

The Vanguard years were "...the best of times, the worst of times..." in
spades.  We really found out who our friends actually were.

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <f9.1b1126af.29f61465@aol.com>

As it happens, I am quite good friends with both Gary Gygax, and Dave 
Arneson, and I am better acquainted than most with their contributions to the 
hobby. I am the better for knowing them, and for having worked with both of 
them.

They are happy to share the title: "Co-creators of Roleplaying" and with good 
reason, because they invented it. Much like Gilbert and Sullivan, they have 
their mutual antagonisms, but for the time they worked together, they 
invented the industry by which I now make a living. Something like 
roleplaying might have come about without them, because others were thinking 
along the same lines at about the same time, but they made it happen. 
Traveller would not exist without them. I'd be a game publisher, but it would 
be a radically altered industry, primarily board wargames and miniatures 
rules . . . 

Both Gary and Dave admit they missed opportunities. Who of us hasn't? 
However, I am not willing to press "reset" and eliminate one or the other of 
their contributions just to see what would happen. THings could have turned 
out a LOT worse.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Traveler Ring
In-Reply-To: <3CC4A483.8DEF4B63@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001e01c1ea6a$29c788a0$2f7de40c@loki>

This is the ever occasional and irregular annoyance declaring the
existence of the...

Traveller Web Ring
http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=traveller;action=info

If you have a Traveller web site come on board and we'll spread the
community.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019492558.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20422.181710.3T8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
>> "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
>> > eliminate poverty?
>> 
>> The government defines a poverty line.  People at and near that 
>> point pay no income taxes.  Anyone with an income greater than 
>> that pays a graduated tax, depending upon how far above it they 
>> are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the 
>> government (much like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any 
>> money in) to give them money equal to being at the poverty line.  
>
> Not quite; one idea behind negative income tax as I'm aware of it is that 
> it's
> supposed to eliminate the welfare effect where by getting a job, your income
> doesn't improve.  Thus, if the poverty line is $10,000/year and you made less
> than that, tax would be something like 50% of income - $5,000, so if you made
> $2,000/year, your taxes would be -$4,000/year.

The version I recall being interested in was one that included a flat
rate tax.

So say the "poverty line" was $10, and the tax rate was 10%. 

So your taxes would be (income - $10,000)*0.1.

income	taxes
------	------
20,000	1,000
15,000	  500
10,000	    0
 5,000	  500
     0	1,000

Obviously, you'd want to move the break point up, or the tax rate up or
both to get a true replacement for welfare.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:16:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:16:33 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <000001c1ea22$d25c5a60$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <20422.182252.6Q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> If anyone in the Portland/Vancouver area that is on this list hears
> about any job that could use someone good with computers or telecom,
> please email me off-list.

I'm trying to scrape by until I can sell some property. Alas, it looks
like I need to spend several hundred bucks I can't afford just to make
the property likely to sell... :-(

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:19:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:19:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDBDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20422.183614.1Z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> You have that exactly backwards. The LL say it's physical, which might fall
> under the ADA if you thinks it is handicapping you in some way. The RR (and
> the Pope) say it is an act of the will, meaning sin.

No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
sex isn't a sin.

*Acting* upon that attraction (ie engaging in homsexual sex acts) is
what's the sin.

The confusion is due to the common error of confusing "being
homosexual" with being a *practicing* homosexual. Not the same thing.

And it makes sense. If you had to actually be performing the
appropriate type of sex acts to have a given sexual orientation, then
nobody who doesn't have an active sex life would *have* a sexual
orientation. Which is utter nonsense.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV66kY7QNSljIazjBl0001b1b6@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422212448.04e52de0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_113567595==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 09:14 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the
>original dispute with Mr. Arneson.  Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR when Mr.
>Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and co-authorship.<
>and,
> >Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and co-authorship.  TSR
>and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.<
>
>Not according to what I've heard.

Well, since I've talked with Dave Arneson many times over the past twenty 
years, I've gotten it from the source.

>Which is that Arneson wished no part in developing the game into what became
>AD&D. Thus the desire to not continue paying royalties when he was doing no
>work.

Not at ALL what Dave has said.  And "not continue paying royalties" is 
incorrect - TSR stopped paying royalties very early on in the history of 
the production of D&D.

> >Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with
>a straight face. <
>
>If you mean "Chess, Poker, and the AD&D game system", then I not only say
>that with a straight face, I submit it as proof of my position.

I was referring to "View From the Telescope Wondering Which End is Which" 
in issue #11.  My apologies.  Now go back and say that with a straight face.

>(Re:  Chaosium) I am aware of that.
>Are you aware that Gary contacted Chaosium and negotiated a mutual promotion
>to resolve the matter but the Blumes squashed the deal because they didn't
>want to give any support to anyone else?

No, but good to know.  Nice to be clear that the Blumes were the direct 
problem there.


> >Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?<
>
>Is that really necessary?

Well, given the sweeping statement you made, yes.  Unless this counts as a 
retraction.


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_113567595==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 09:14 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out
of TSR, true - but that came later than the<br>
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.&nbsp; Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR
when Mr.<br>
Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and
co-authorship.&lt;<br>
and,<br>
&gt;Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and
co-authorship.&nbsp; TSR<br>
and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.&lt;<br><br>
Not according to what I've heard.</blockquote><br>
Well, since I've talked with Dave Arneson many times over the past twenty
years, I've gotten it from the source.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Which is that Arneson wished no
part in developing the game into what became<br>
AD&amp;D. Thus the desire to not continue paying royalties when he was
doing no<br>
work.</blockquote><br>
Not at ALL what Dave has said.&nbsp; And &quot;not continue paying
royalties&quot; is incorrect - TSR stopped paying royalties very early on
in the history of the production of D&amp;D.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;Go re-read his editorial in
Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with<br>
a straight face. &lt;<br><br>
If you mean &quot;Chess, Poker, and the AD&amp;D game system&quot;, then
I not only say<br>
that with a straight face, I submit it as proof of my
position.</blockquote><br>
I was referring to &quot;View From the Telescope Wondering Which End is
Which&quot; in issue #11.&nbsp; My apologies.&nbsp; Now go back and say
that with a straight face.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>(Re:&nbsp; Chaosium) I am aware of
that.<br>
Are you aware that Gary contacted Chaosium and negotiated a mutual
promotion<br>
to resolve the matter but the Blumes squashed the deal because they
didn't<br>
want to give any support to anyone else?</blockquote><br>
No, but good to know.&nbsp; Nice to be clear that the Blumes were the
direct problem there.<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;Care to name any names, Mr.
Weiss?&lt;<br><br>
Is that really necessary?</blockquote><br>
Well, given the sweeping statement you made, yes.&nbsp; Unless this
counts as a retraction.<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_113567595==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <f9.1b1126af.29f61465@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422213416.04e54920@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_113712064==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

What Loren said.  While I've known Mr. Arneson much better than Mr. Gygax, 
I think Loren says it right.  Thanks!

Victor

At 09:35 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>As it happens, I am quite good friends with both Gary Gygax, and Dave
>Arneson, and I am better acquainted than most with their contributions to the
>hobby. I am the better for knowing them, and for having worked with both of
>them.
>
>They are happy to share the title: "Co-creators of Roleplaying" and with good
>reason, because they invented it. Much like Gilbert and Sullivan, they have
>their mutual antagonisms, but for the time they worked together, they
>invented the industry by which I now make a living. Something like
>roleplaying might have come about without them, because others were thinking
>along the same lines at about the same time, but they made it happen.
>Traveller would not exist without them. I'd be a game publisher, but it would
>be a radically altered industry, primarily board wargames and miniatures
>rules . . .
>
>Both Gary and Dave admit they missed opportunities. Who of us hasn't?
>However, I am not willing to press "reset" and eliminate one or the other of
>their contributions just to see what would happen. THings could have turned
>out a LOT worse.
>
>LKW
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_113712064==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
What Loren said.&nbsp; While I've known Mr. Arneson much better than Mr.
Gygax, I think Loren says it right.&nbsp; Thanks!<br><br>
Victor<br><br>
At 09:35 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As it happens, I am quite good
friends with both Gary Gygax, and Dave <br>
Arneson, and I am better acquainted than most with their contributions to
the <br>
hobby. I am the better for knowing them, and for having worked with both
of <br>
them.<br><br>
They are happy to share the title: &quot;Co-creators of Roleplaying&quot;
and with good <br>
reason, because they invented it. Much like Gilbert and Sullivan, they
have <br>
their mutual antagonisms, but for the time they worked together, they
<br>
invented the industry by which I now make a living. Something like <br>
roleplaying might have come about without them, because others were
thinking <br>
along the same lines at about the same time, but they made it happen.
<br>
Traveller would not exist without them. I'd be a game publisher, but it
would <br>
be a radically altered industry, primarily board wargames and miniatures
<br>
rules . . . <br><br>
Both Gary and Dave admit they missed opportunities. Who of us hasn't?
<br>
However, I am not willing to press &quot;reset&quot; and eliminate one or
the other of <br>
their contributions just to see what would happen. THings could have
turned <br>
out a LOT worse.<br><br>
LKW<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
TML mailing list<br>
TML@travellercentral.com<br>
<a href="http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml" eudora="autourl">http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml</a></blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_113712064==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20422.183614.1Z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEDKDMAA.tml@downport.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>
> No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
> homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
> sex isn't a sin.

You misstate the RR POV, which says there is no *being* in the equation.
That would suggest something physical. They tend to deny causation outside
of the fallen (sin) condition. You correctly stated the RCC position, which
like the jewish view holds that only the act is condemnable.

ObTrav: at what LL do we see the appearance of the Thought Police? Can they
exist at any LL, for 1 on up where the technology or psionic ability exists
to determine intent before action? Or does there have to be a high LL before
your thoughts become criminal?

_____________________________________________
The Traveller Web Portal
http://www.downport.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW! I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <F20Jpjc0D543TuylJc000000369@hotmail.com>

From: Jeff Zeitlin <editor@freelancetraveller.com>

     "...indicating that he wants to make Freelance Traveller the 
rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively flattering;..."


Mr. Zeitlin,

     Flattering it may be, but it also an award that you richly deserve, 
sir.  You EARNED it through both superb editing work and constant labor in 
maintaining such a fine web site.

     "Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who 
has allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work 
more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as 
you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people 
like you are too valuable to lose."

     Others may help in providing content, but the presentation is yours 
alone and that is the reason you and your site are being recognised.  The 
best of content, arranged in a haphazard, harum-scarum manner in a 
ill-designed site, would have been lost.  You crafted a wonderful showcase 
AND selected a pleasing variety of things to display within it AND ensured 
those items were well crafted.  The recognition and accolades are yours and 
yours alone, as they should be.
     Look at the "Wounded Colossus" material.  I originally posted it to the 
TML in several disjointed, rambling posts over the period of a month, 
nothing more than ill-spelled mess of grammatical horrors which contained 
some ideas that struck the List's fancy.
     You, Mr. Zeitlin, took all that dross and refined it.  You patiently 
collected each post, corrected the gaffes, goofs, and faux pas, cleaned up 
the presentation, whittled away redundancies, and acted in every way as a 
true editor, the type of editor ever writer should have.  You made the 
"Wounded Colossus" material far better than it had been when it left my 
hands.  That is why you have been honored.
     My congratulations, sir.  This honor are well deserved and long 
overdue.  Bravo, sir!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. Whipsnade, aka William R. Cameron

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:11:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:11:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F167tLLVTnE9Q3uQIhN00007388@hotmail.com>

From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>

     "EXCUSE ME? After your "Colossus" posts detailing your alternate ending 
to the MT Rebellion, I'll be happy to debate your statement with you or 
anyone else."

     "That was a masterful piece of work, sir, and one that has become a 
permanent part of my MT campaigns. I haven't seen much of your other work 
but quality, not quantity, is the mark of excellence (as Imperium Games 
found out the hard way)."


Mr. Smart,

     Thank you, sir, you are very kind.  I was fortunate in having the 
active participation of the List while posting WC.  I was doubly fortunate 
that Mr. Zeitlin both accepted it for inclusion in his site and polished it 
to a high luster.
     However, despite producing the "Colossus" material, I am not the best 
of web surfers or researchers!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F35zRPTNZStgLzhVOJw00000252@hotmail.com>

From: "Beth" <shylady69@runbox.com>

     "It's OK, nothing to worry about.  Everything will be alright.  Why 
don't you follow these two gentlemen to a nice comfy room we have for you.  
All padded and quiet.  Latter we will feed you.  We hope that you like 
pudding.  We will even fit you with a new jacket as well."


Ms. Shylady,

     I do enjoy a good pudding, but it so hard to grip the spoon with one's 
toes...
     May I also send along my condolences with regards to your bouts of 
Whipsnade's Syndrome?  "Brain Flatulence", as it is commonly known, is a 
horrid affliction.  The other day, I left the Whipsande Manse, Casa Diablo, 
without first putting on socks.  I didn't even notice my lack of socks until 
the local constabulary had run me in for not wearing pants.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422212448.04e52de0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV142mduL7Uu9Pyo250001b287@hotmail.com>

>Well, since I've talked with Dave Arneson many times over the past twenty
years, I've gotten it from the source.<

And since I've talked with Gary Gygax, so have I.

>Not at ALL what Dave has said.  And "not continue paying royalties" is
incorrect - TSR stopped paying royalties very early on in the history of the
production of D&D.<

Well I guess they have different opinions of how it went down.

>I was referring to "View From the Telescope Wondering Which End is Which"
in issue #11.  My apologies.  Now go back and say that with a straight
face.<

I don't have access to that.
Either way, it wouldn't really matter. You see, I've heard worse than
anything I've ever seen in print directed at me personally by Gary. So
anything sent in general will simply amuse me by how mild the statements
are.

>Well, given the sweeping statement you made, yes.  Unless this counts as a
retraction.<

It is not a retraction, but I will not elaborate on it. I see no reason to
engage in the gratuitous slamming of people just to satisfy your curiousity.
It will have to suffice that I've read critiques of Gary's work by people
whose works I regard as jokes.

Instead, I would also support what Loren said. I would simply note that no
one was eliminated by the statement being discussed. What you have it a
statement of support and admiration by someone who only regularly
communicates with one of the people involved. But it seems rather than being
satisfied with suggesting, as I did, that the statement is best completed by
adding, Arneson and Lee, people would rather go to attacking Gary.


Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 22:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon Apr 22 21:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <20020422041531.74282.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DAV43ywkGmY8TkomDt500003bb3@hotmail.com>

James Ramsay wrote:


> Until we develop AI or very very sophisticated system
> this would be useless in the real world.

I agree.  I suppose the system developer would claim he _had_ created a very
very sophisticated system.  I wouldn't presume to judge until I'd seen it in
operation, but I'm fairly skeptical that this things ready to set the world
on fire.

> How does a
> computer now whether a person is reaching for a gun or
> there wallet? Answer they can't.

Police and security officers, while performing lightyears beyond computers,
have a less than unblemished record in this regard.

> All it can do is
> determine that an image of a person looks like its
> reaching for something.

I think the system may scan pedestrian crowds looking for non-typical
patterns of traffic movement.  (Person X has passed the jewelry store 5
times in the past 10 minutes, while persons Y and Z have been loitering a
few yards away for about the same amount of time.  I'd better wake Officer
Friendly.)  Admittedly, this assumption is based on the WAG Algorithm.

> If they stopped wasting money
> on tech dreams such as this actual humans could be
> hired.

If by "tech dreams" you mean any new research, I disagree with the
philosophy implicit in your statement.  If, on the other hand, you mean
pie-in-the-sky nonsense, we're on the same page.

I'm mindful of a company some years ago that did quite well for itself in
the Texas area selling a "sniffer" gadget.  Their product was a box with a
few dials, some lights, and an antenna.  They marketed their product as
being able to sense drugs, explosives, and fire accelerants.  Based on some
slick brochures and some test demonstrations (where the fix was in, of
course) a number of schools, security firms and (sigh) police departments
purchased this fraudulent piece of garbage.

I don't know if the Cromatica system will turn out to be research or
pie-in-the-sky nonsense.

> And for a very long time into the future humans
> (even the ones typically hired as security guards)
> will have more reasoning ability than all the
> computers in the world!

I couldn't agree more.  And this touches on my real quibble with this or any
other advance that makes something like law enforcement/security easier or
more convenient.

    <Old Coot Rant: Enable>

Eaiser and more convenient don't necessarily translate to better.

In general, and all other things being equal:

Who's more diligent?
 a guard at a building with doors open to the public
or
 a guard at a building with biometric security.

Who knows more (in his/her head) about the people and area (s)he polices?
a cop of today with a car, cell phone, two way radio and mobile data
terminal
or
a cop of eighty years ago who walked a beat, contacted headquarters from a
call box, and was forced to rely on his/her knowledge and memory of their
beat and its inhabitants to do their job.

If the video scanning technology that checks body measurements against those
of known offenders becomes commonplace and reliable, how good will the next
generation of police be at remembering and recognizing faces?

If Cromatica works and becomes popular, how many security officers will set
the alarm and read / nap / play video games until the system says there's a
problem?

    <Old Coot Rant: Disable>

> Robotic security guards have
> been in development since the 70's and no one has yet
> to make one that is accurate and/or doesn't cost more
> than the police budget for a small city.

Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being tried
out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 22:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Mon Apr 22 21:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEDKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <B8EA36A9.3918%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

on 4/22/02 7:46 PM, Swordy at tml@downport.com wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>> 
>> No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
>> homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
>> sex isn't a sin.
> 
> You misstate the RR POV, which says there is no *being* in the equation.
> That would suggest something physical. They tend to deny causation outside
> of the fallen (sin) condition. You correctly stated the RCC position, which
> like the jewish view holds that only the act is condemnable.
> 
> ObTrav: at what LL do we see the appearance of the Thought Police? Can they
> exist at any LL, for 1 on up where the technology or psionic ability exists
> to determine intent before action? Or does there have to be a high LL before
> your thoughts become criminal?
> 

I would think it the measure is LL, not psionic ability or TL.  "1984"
describes a pretty low TL world, maybe 5-6?, an that book pretty much
defines 'thought police'.

Of course, this measures only what the official government of a world
enforces, not the society at large - so if society on planet Rubella
believes people who like blue are 'evil' or a threat of some type, and
therefore don't employ them, throw them out of their homes/schools, ban them
from normal family/societal functions to the point of actual physical danger
and at least economic hardship - the LL can still be rather low (even if the
Rubellan government actively attempts to help blue liking people by giving
them subsidies).

Doesn't LL not only cover what is illegal, but also how often you can expect
to be hassled and how much hassle you can expect once your character finds
him or herself talking to a cop?

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 02:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue Apr 23 01:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B84@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Tackett [mailto:haegen2001@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 22 April 2002 10:38
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
> 
> 
> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to
> > Comics.
> Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember
> what he did.

Co-wrote Original D&D with Gygax, His campaign world was Blackmoor,
Gygax's was Greyhawk

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 02:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 01:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
Message-ID: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C1EAAD.1F0222C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


A sample from Traveller's Aide #1 is now on the QuikLink site....

http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html

------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C1EAAD.1F0222C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A sample from Traveller's Aide #1 is =
now on the=20
QuikLink site....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html">http://www.traveller=
rpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C1EAAD.1F0222C0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Love the cover!
Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the pdf will be somewhat better.
I will be buying this.

Regards,

Andrei Nikulinsky

>
>A sample from Traveller's Aide #1 is now on the QuikLink site....
>
><http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html>http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <016901c1eaa7$8a03d6f0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> Love the cover!
> Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the pdf will be somewhat better.
> I will be buying this.
> 
> 

Heh.... we'll hold you to that, mind.....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV142mduL7Uu9Pyo250001b287@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIECFHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Just to clarify why I equated Arneson to Kirby and Gygax to
Shooter

Both Arneson and Kirby were the primary creative geniuses in
their work, and both lost control of their creative work due to
business practices, which while legal, were morally questionable.

Both Gygax and Shooter, while having produced some great work (in
Shooter's case the "Michael" sequence in "The Avengers" was
groundbreaking for mainstream superheroes) appear (in their
writing at least) to have huge egos, and  seem to very easly
alienate other creative people. They both also seem to have poor
business sense, while at the same time seeming to think they were
good at the money side of the business, though admittedly that is
my judgement basd on second-hand reports, so is not inherently
reliable.

I'd agree with Sam's equating of Gygax to Stan Lee as well, while
I think the Shooter comparison is more accurate in terms of
temperment and style, the original team pairing part is more
accurate in terms of contemporienity.

With regard to the old "D&D created the industry" chestnut,
despite Loren's statement, D&D was neither original nor was it a
neccessary catalyst for the industry.

If TSR had not had D&D, Professor Barker's "Empire of the Petal
Throne" would almost certainly still have been published by TSR a
short time later. What became Arduin and Runequest would still
have been developed at or around the same time. "Traveller" may
not have been, but then we would have had something else it's
place, perhaps from Steve Jackson ('Car Wars' was almost a
roleplaying game from it's inception) or from FGU.

In terms of originality, just about all of the basic concepts of
what would become "roleplaying" were discussed in H.G. Wells
"Little Wars". At the other end of the roleplaying spectrum, the
trend toward heroic free-form/improvisational theatre had already
peaked in the late sixties and was losing it's lustre, with one
or two notable exceptions.

GDW, Chaosium, WRG, TSR, Flying Buffalo, Steve Jackson, Steve
Curtis, and many other primarily wargaming companies were all in
the process of adding fantasy wargaming and roleplaying systems
of various forms to their wargames, largely due to the popularity
of "Lord of the Rings" at the time. These were based originally
on personalization details for their army "generals" and "special
figures", and also on the trend toward small scale "skirmish"
wargames where the individual figures were heavily personalized
and even given "character", of which "Chainmail" was just one,
and not the most influential either.

While I'm not going to deny D&D's importance, it was not, IMO,
neccessary for the development of roleplaying.
Someone would have filled the role, just as someone would have
become the equivalemt of Bill Gates and Microsoft if Bill & Co.
had not been around, as both were merely a culmination of trends
rather than sudden discontinuities.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:34:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:34:38 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKECFHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rachel Kronick wrote :
> On 22 Apr 2002, at 20:20, Timothy Little wrote:
>
> > Blame it on the government, not Frank.  They're the
> > ones making decisions whether to hand out money
> > based on the origin of your ancestors.  I'm not
> > sure whether he was being serious about the
> > "lesbian" benefit or not.

Actually I don't think there actually is a _specific_ lesbian
benefit in New Zealand, I was being flippant.

> The solo parent benefit certainly is fact.

Yes, as are the special benefits for Maori, though I don't
disagree with the intent of the solo parent benefit or some of
the benefits targetted at Maori, my beef is with the people who
consider it a career choice, and the government that takes so
much of my money.

> I have little or no problem with the government's
> decisions regarding  benefits;

While I, on the other hand have huge problems with the way these
benefits are awarded.

I consider that such things should be targetted based on need,
not on membership of some arbitrary racial or social grouping, as
_that_, IMO, is racism, sexism, or whatever.

> the problem was that Frank came very close
> to implicitly saying that being Maori or being
> lesbian was a bad thing.

If I thought being Maori or being lesbian were bad things in
themselves I would have no qualms about saying it in public or on
this list. I wouldn't just imply it.

> His derisive tone, not the government's decision,
> was what irked me.

I'd say you worry about the wrong things then, complaining about
a mere derisive tone rather than the actual racism and sexism the
derision was targetted at. But that's your karma, not mine.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 04:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 03:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/23/2002 at 5:05 PM ondy wrote:

>Love the cover!
>Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the pdf will be somewhat better.
>I will be buying this.

The jpgs don't do it justice really, so I just posted a 4-page PDF sample=
 also. Same pages, but you get a better look at the layout!

http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001s.pdf

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 04:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 03:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Law Level (was: RAH and Libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <20020423093810.4CB01279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020423093810.4CB01279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <j6cacu0relbk1aah5d6noe68aoaq6v0ncf@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:32:03 -0700, Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Doesn't LL not only cover what is illegal, but also how often you can expect
>to be hassled and how much hassle you can expect once your character finds
>him or herself talking to a cop?

There are varying interpretations; the Original Canon seemed to make LL
exclusively a measure of how legal it was to go around armed beyond the
teeth.  Not unreasonable, necessarily, given that the level of
sophistication of role-playing in those days was low by today's standards,
and hakkenslash was "SOP". (N.B. I view Traveller as having been one of the
games that started the movement away from that.)

On the rare occasions that I actually address the question of what LL
means, I do currently interpret it as being the 'overall police hasslement'
likelihood - but I also like to expand the LL into a ULP,  l DGP WBH -
after all, there's no requirement for consistency in all areas of the law
(e.g., LL in NYC for weapons possession is essentially 9+, but I'd estimate
the hasslement level as only about 3 for most people in most situations).
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 07:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 06:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RPGs
Message-ID: <95.1b594c7e.29f6ba34@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/23/2002 4:39:08 AM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>GDW, Chaosium, WRG, TSR, Flying Buffalo, Steve Jackson, Steve
>Curtis, and many other primarily wargaming companies were all in
>the process of adding fantasy wargaming and roleplaying systems
>of various forms to their wargames, largely due to the popularity
>of "Lord of the Rings" at the time. These were based originally
>on personalization details for their army "generals" and "special
>figures", and also on the trend toward small scale "skirmish"
>wargames where the individual figures were heavily personalized
>and even given "character", of which "Chainmail" was just one,
>and not the most influential either.

You've obviously done considerable research if you know of Steve Curtis -- 
few people do nowadays.

>While I'm not going to deny D&D's importance, it was not, IMO,
>neccessary for the development of roleplaying.

I'm not as certain of that as you are . . . let us agree to disagree.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 07:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 06:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <DAV43ywkGmY8TkomDt500003bb3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC60A07.12144.5F6853@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002 at 23:39, Texas Redshift wrote:

> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being tried
> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

Not off-hand, but that sounds like one of Harry Harrison's from _War 
with the Robots_.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:35:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:35:26 2002
Subject: [TML] GT-FT question: Governers vs Legates
Message-ID: <3CC57085.ACFD07EB@mail.cswnet.com>

Two quick questions:

Whats the difference between an Imperial Governor and an Imperial
Governor-General?

On worlds like Arba and Yorbund, where there is no government, who does
the Imperium send, a Legate or a Governor?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] living space
Message-ID: <F209X64kDn9cvKluevz000007df@hotmail.com>

From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net>

     "But the Traveller navies, like the wet navies of today require 
sophisticated technologically savvy crewmen. Not the kind of people that 
would want to live under conditions that exist on even today's ships (one 
reason the U.S. Navy has so much trouble keeping people.)"


Mr. Carlino,

     A very accurate supposition, sir.  Living conditions were one, of many, 
reasons I did not put twenty years in the USN.
     During the ship habitability thread of last year, I described ad 
nauseum the living arrangements aboard my last ship, USS California.  A 
brief recap will fit here.
     I lived with 41 other men in an area slightly smaller than a two car 
garage.  Our bunks were stacked three high.  Personal property stowage was 
limited to a locker underneath our beds; approx 6' by 2' and 10" deep, and a 
smaller gym-style locker.  My division was lucky, our office was one deck 
below our berthing area so we could watch TV, play cards, etc., down there 
and let others sleep.
     Our berthing area was a "hazardous noise area" when underway.  That 
meant that ear plugs or muffs were required.  Both propeller shafts ran 
underneath the space, #2 engineroom was forward, #2 diesel was aft along 
with #2 pump room.  My last year aboard, the space finally recieved noise 
dampening pads on the bulkheads which lessened the problem somewhat.
     The sanitary arrangements can be summed up in one phrase; our two 
commodes didn't have stalls around them until my last year aboard.

     "One of the easiest, and cheapest in the long run, method of keeping 
high quality people is to give them decent living conditions. It is common 
on merchant ships today for seamen to live in the kind of berthing used on 
Traveller ships. It is my contention that by the middle of this century U.S. 
Navy ships will have similar berthing, if only because that's they only way 
they will be able to compete for the high quality technical people they 
need."

     Either that or barracks ashore for ALL personnel.  The SSNs and SSBNs 
have always housed their crews ashore when the vessel is in port.  The rest 
of the Navy should do the same.  Putting up with cramped living conditions 
would be tolerable during deployments IF you knew you'd be returning to 
barracks back in port.  As it stands now, most naval personnel live in the 
factories where they work.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

ObTrav - I've always thought that 57th century SDBs are crewed in a manner 
similar to USN SSBNs; two crews per vessel.  This keeps the SDB on patrol 
longer without driving the crew mad.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:46:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:46:12 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <200204231444.g3NEieV03093@uranus.networkwcs.net>

[... snip long non-Traveller stuff ...]

So what I would like to know from those who seem to have discussions
with G. Gygax is this: What is it about +1 axes and why do they seem
to appear in every early D&D module? Why, oh God why?!? THE AXES, THE
AXES!!!

... ahem. Sorry. I'll go back into topor again.

ObTrav: Do the Imperial Marines use +1 axes in shipboard hand-to-hand
combat? Would a superdense axehead make a +1 axe? If Dulinor had
killed Strephon with a +1 axe, would the course of the Rebellion been
altered (oh wait, it was all a dream, wasn't it Bobby?). Would F.S.
industries be willing to buy secret plans for a +1 axe spinal mount
stolen from the planet Xayag?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

Who showed supreme restraint when he gave the last p*racy thread a pass.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:52:13 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <F209X64kDn9cvKluevz000007df@hotmail.com>
References: <F209X64kDn9cvKluevz000007df@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <02042316460813.03729@avlendris>

Hey Guys

After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video 
(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net seems 
utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was a 
Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters). 

Anyone have any clue?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIECFHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <DAV142mduL7Uu9Pyo250001b287@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020423094644.04ea2d60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_1470066==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 09:42 PM 4/23/02 +1200, you wrote:
>If TSR had not had D&D, Professor Barker's "Empire of the Petal
>Throne" would almost certainly still have been published by TSR a
>short time later.

Not necessarily true.  Prof. Barker was introduced to D&D role-playing by a 
player from Mr. Gygax's Greyhawk campaign, who had moved from Lake Geneva 
to Minneapolis to begin college.  The subsequent game was mildly influenced 
by D&D, and aside from the "Purple Book" (the play-test rules that became 
EPT), there's no clear set of "role-playing" rules for Tekumel.  To be 
sure, Prof. Barker has talked about the role-playing done in grad school, 
but it wasn't intended for publication.

Victor Raymond


Victor J. Raymond
Department of Sociology, ISU
vraymond@iastate.edu
--=====================_1470066==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 09:42 PM 4/23/02 +1200, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>If TSR had not had D&amp;D,
Professor Barker's &quot;Empire of the Petal<br>
Throne&quot; would almost certainly still have been published by TSR
a<br>
short time later. <br>
</blockquote><br>
Not necessarily true.&nbsp; Prof. Barker was introduced to D&amp;D
role-playing by a player from Mr. Gygax's Greyhawk campaign, who had
moved from Lake Geneva to Minneapolis to begin college.&nbsp; The
subsequent game was mildly influenced by D&amp;D, and aside from the
&quot;Purple Book&quot; (the play-test rules that became EPT), there's no
clear set of &quot;role-playing&quot; rules for Tekumel.&nbsp; To be
sure, Prof. Barker has talked about the role-playing done in grad school,
but it wasn't intended for publication.<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times">Victor J. Raymond<br>
Department of Sociology, ISU<br>
vraymond@iastate.edu</font></html>

--=====================_1470066==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 09:20:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 08:20:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>; from martinjd@globalnet.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:56:21AM +0100
References: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020423091936.A5708@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:56:21AM +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
> http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html

Looks attractive.  I wonder, though, if it might not have been
possible to put GURPS stats in as well.  Might have widened the market
some, and with a decent little prog shouldn't be too expensive.
Famous last words and all that, I know...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you want to travel around the world and be invited to speak at a lot
of different places, just write a Unix operating system.
                                       --Linus Torvalds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
>Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
...
>I'm not anti-taxes; they're a necessary evil.  But it's important to
>realise the very bad efects taxation has on an economy.  Ideally
>taxation (and therefore, the public sector) would be limited to a few
>percent of GDP, so as to minimise the deleterious economic effects
>thereof.

  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a substantial
public investment in infrastructure? It's called the Third World.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>






>After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video
>(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net
seems
>utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was
a
>Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters).

I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 (in fact
i try to pretend it never happened.)

I once ran a Galactica campaign. however i had no real dimensions on the
ship. so i started doing some guessing. First i found somewhere stated that
Battlestars carried 75 fighters broken down into 4 squadrons. i had
problems with this number. it worked out to 18 vipers per sqdrn and 3 left
over for... what? replacements to the squadrons? again nothing i could find
explained it.

anyway I also found out that she could launch all her vipers at once.
launching both Landing Bays(I always referred to the entire pod as the
Landing Bays even though only the aft end of the pod was used for ship
recovery). this comes up with the very convenient number of 37.5. so we are
launching half a viper out each bay every time we are under attack.

well i made a few changes upped the number of vipers to 80 giving each
sqdrn 20. and launching 40 in a broadside. to figure the length of the ship
i actually did two things. (Now remember this is from memory from like 1986
8P )

First i did have a set of dimensions for the viper. so i calculated the
width of the viper and launch bay at both 37.5 and 40. i had a set of plans
that where actually used to build the Mock fighter and the Launching pad
set. i think i still have that set of plans at home ill look tonight if i
do ill send you the dimensions i worked with.

Once this distance was figured. i tried to figure out how many gun
positions where spaced along the launch tub exits. the only way i could
figure this was by looking at the model i had built as a kid. Now granted i
know this is not the best thing you could do to figure it but i really had
no other choice. i took a best guess as to how wide i thought each gun
position was and added it to my viper width total.

i then estimated that this total number was 80% of the length of a landing
bay. so i tacked on 20% more to get a total landing bay. then once i had
this number i estimated the length percentage of the landing bay to the
ships over all length. so if i felt the landing bay was 45% of the ships
over all length i just tacked on double the landing bay plus 15% more to
get a total length over all.

to find width i did something similar.

when the vipers where on final to one of the landing bays you could see
other vipers sitting on their launch cradles. i did a an estimate of the
width of the landing bays based on the LOA of a Viper. once i had that
number i used my bays as a guide for a WOA for a Battlestar.

The number that comes to mind from back then is like 1750 meters to 1950
meters depending on 37.5 per broadside to 40 per broadside. She really is a
huge ship. i cant remember the WOA. ill look and see if i can find my notes
on dimensions for the Galactica and my plans that have the actual viper
dimensions

the biggest problem is that i don't think any real dimensions were ever
published for the Galactica so any dimensions are really a best guess.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231606.EVJ07561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

shudson@lightspeed.ca says
>
>  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
>modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a 
>substantial public investment in infrastructure? It's called 
>the Third World.
>

There's a balance to be struck there.  It's possible to spend 
too much, or make the definition of infrastructure too 
vague.  Also, it's a good thing for governments to invest in 
areas where venture capitalists fear to tread (rural electric 
power, the original Internet), but it's also good to know 
when those things should become private.

Not Exactly ObTrav: I firmly believe that instead of spending 
money on the Space Shuttle, the government should be spending 
on an initiative to get companies to build a low cost means 
to get into orbit.  Any idea that could work should be on the 
table.  Companies should get incentives for working in 
space.  We need to get off this rock and make money, instead 
of doing science in a tin can in orbit.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>; from shudson@lightspeed.ca on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 08:52:20AM -0700
References: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 08:52:20AM -0700, Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
>   Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
> modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a substantial
> public investment in infrastructure? It's called the Third World.

Of course I'm serious.  And the problem with those countries is not
`investment' (which is a misused word: investments yield returns), but
lack of ironclad property and contract law, among other things.  The
First World pours money into those places, and it does very little
good.

There are things for which it makes sense that they be state-run
(e.g. power & water distribution, roads &c.) but not state-subsidised
(i.e. you pay for what you burn/drink/whatever).  There are things for
which it makes sense that they be state-subsidised (e.g. the military
and process of government).

That does not mean that the public sector should be as large as it is.
And it certainly doesn't mean that we should not investigate ways to
either privatise _or_ run on the local level.

Good sigmonster...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A man who lives in a country ought to contribute his fair share to its
defense and maintenance.  Everything else is extortion.
                                       --Poul Anderson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:13:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:13:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020423091936.A5708@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>

In the broadest sense, they are competing products. And even though one of
them is based on an "open" gaming system, the other is not ;)

From Miracle Max's Recipe Book:

	To one fresh paper cut;
		add 1 tsp. lemon juice
		and 1/2 tsp. salt

	mash with your thumb until screaming stops

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Robert A. Uhl

> > http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html
>
> Looks attractive.  I wonder, though, if it might not have been
> possible to put GURPS stats in as well.  Might have widened the market
> some, and with a decent little prog shouldn't be too expensive.
> Famous last words and all that, I know...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:19:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:19:53 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
> Once this distance was figured. i tried to figure out how many gun
> positions where spaced along the launch tub exits. the only way i could
> figure this was by looking at the model i had built as a kid. Now

Model of what?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On 22 Apr 2002 at 7:41, Paul Walker wrote:
> > Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is
> 10,000Cr. 
> > If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away
> 10,000
> > of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick. 
> In
> > my mind, this situation would produce three types
> of
> > people:
> 
> You're assuming that 50% of the population does no
> work, here.

Well, given Human nature, I would expect fewer than
50% to work.  If you can live decently without any
attempt to work, why would you work?  The entire
discussion originated around the negative tax, and the
explanation given has the government setting the
"poverty" level.

More than assuming 50% doesn't work, I assume that the
government will set the "poverty" level near the
median income.  Why?  It is good for reelection.  Now
before anyone jumps on my case, I recognize that this
is one of the major assumptions that will flaw my
arguement, but, frankly, I don't trust the government
to make the right decision.

The welfare system should exist for two reasons,
helping those who can't work to survive, and
encouraging those who can work to do so. 
Unfortunately, that is not what government officials
use it for.  They use it as a kick-back for votes. (I
do confess to a US-centric view of politics, but I
would imagine it is similar.)

The negative tax system as presented rewards people
for not working.  If you can work and you choose not
to, you should not get any reward.
  
> > 1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
> >      These people continue to earn as much as they
> > can, either (a) hoping that maybe the government
> will
> > not need all of it to pay for those not at poverty
> > level and that they will get to keep the extra
> > (doubtful) or (b) working because they are not
> > concerned with the money aspect of the work, but
> are
> > motivated by something else entirely.
> 
> Why is it doubtful?
> 

Because the government will be likely to take more
than they need.  Someone will present the idea that we
can't lower the poverty level but we may not get
enough taxes to pay next year, so we better take a
little extra to ensure that we can pay the poverty
level in the future.  Not to mention that we need to
take in more taxes for our pork barrel.  

I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
retiring tomorrow.  While I don't know where all the
money went, I know that much went to pork barrel, and
some went to folks who never paid that much in.

Maybe I'm not making sense.  Suffice it to say, that I
don't trust the government to make the right
decisions, and the negative tax seems to put much
trust in the government to make the right decisions.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:25:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:25:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231606.EVJ07561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:06:01PM -0400
References: <200204231606.EVJ07561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423101904.C5708@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:06:01PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> Not Exactly ObTrav: I firmly believe that instead of spending 
> money on the Space Shuttle, the government should be spending 
> on an initiative to get companies to build a low cost means 
> to get into orbit.

_Allowing_ companies to build and enter orbit would be a good start.

Part of the problem is that the technology to get men to the moon is
precisely the technology to get nukes to Naples.  Modern nation states
like it when a) only states posess power and b) as few states as
possible do so.

Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
but it's an interesting way to look at it.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say
to its subjects, `This you may not read, this you must not see, this
you are forbidden to know,' the end result is tyranny and oppression,
no matter how holy the motives.  Mighty little force is needed to
control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount
of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the
rack, not fission bombs, not anything.  You can't conquer a free man;
the most you can do is kill him.               --Robert A.  Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020423162545.82697.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> That would *only* be true if the median income was
> at the poverty 
> line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.

You are correct.  I think the pressure would be on the
government from those below median income to put the
"poverty" level as close to median as possible.

As those two numbers get closer, the quantity of
people who try to make more than will be taken is
reduced.  (I may be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of
work for 6,000Cr, but when the numbers get closer,
will I be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of work for
3,000Cr?)

The cycle continues until there are too few workers to
support the system.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162545.82697.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019580147.4086.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> --- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > That would *only* be true if the median income was
> > at the poverty 
> > line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.
> 
> You are correct.  I think the pressure would be on the
> government from those below median income to put the
> "poverty" level as close to median as possible.

Sure, and for those above the median income to put the 'poverty' level as low
as possible.  Seriously, the political pressures on tax levels with negative
income are not substantially different from those associated with general
welfare today, and it's very rare for welfare to allow someone to live at
median income.

Of course, if by 'poverty line', you mean the point at which your net tax rate
is zero, that may be at a fairly high percentile, but simply sitting without
working only gets you around 1/5 of that much money.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162545.82697.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Paul Walker wrote:

> --- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > That would *only* be true if the median income was
> > at the poverty 
> > line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.
> 
> You are correct.  I think the pressure would be on the
> government from those below median income to put the
> "poverty" level as close to median as possible.
> 
> As those two numbers get closer, the quantity of
> people who try to make more than will be taken is
> reduced.  (I may be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of
> work for 6,000Cr, but when the numbers get closer,
> will I be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of work for
> 3,000Cr?)

This kind of economic system will ONLY work if no one has a "shit job".

If I had my druthers I would spend every day writing.  I might or might
not make any money on it, but that's what I'd do.  I do not work as a
physicians' administrative assistant for the sheer pleasure of it.  It's
annoying and boring much of the time, even though I believe in what we are
doing here.

Economic systems such as the one in ST:TNG work the way they do because of
labor replacement.  Replicators and robotics and "holograms" (that aren't
holograms) ensure that human beings don't have to flip burgers, type other
people's correspondence, etc.  I don't know who does the plumbing.  There
are a lot of jobs that pay well because they are boring, dangerous, or
stressful that people will simply not do unless they either love the work
so much they don't care, or are paid a lot more than other folks, so it is
worth it to them, and not taxed down to the median.

Writers, artists, and scientists love to posit such economic systems,
because they love what they do and will do it whether or not they get paid
a lot.  The fact remains, however, that construction work, plumbing, oil
rigging, upper level administration, and a lot of other very important
jobs that bring in fat paychecks get done because people want the fat
paychecks, not because people's souls thrill at the thought of mucking out
your sewer pipes or sitting through another meeting about the
Tleilaxu-Seldon grant budget.  I would never sit through another meeting
if I didn't have to.  I don't believe that the people who are going to
come over next Friday and fix my telephone lines are in it for the fun of
it all, either.

That is why I don't see this as a valid social plan.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93!  Thou Art God tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:53:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:53:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> > Looks attractive.  I wonder, though, if it might not have been
> > possible to put GURPS stats in as well.  Might have widened the market
> > some, and with a decent little prog shouldn't be too expensive.
> > Famous last words and all that, I know...


We don't have a license to do GURPS products. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFC0ADB44D.1ECBB5A6-ON85256BA4.005A572C@pheaa.org>





>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
>> Once this distance was figured. i tried to figure out how many gun
>> positions where spaced along the launch tub exits. the only way i could
>> figure this was by looking at the model i had built as a kid. Now

>Model of what?

Of the Galactica. put out by Revell or Monogram i think. had decals to make
it either the Galactica or the Pegasus. i made mine the Pegasus. I also had
several Vipers. in fact i built one on a launch cradle with a scratch built
Interior. It was not very good but i loved it 8)

the launch bays where clear along the Port and starboard side. spaced among
them (twice i think) was this flat area of hull where they gun emplacements
where suppose to be. On the model they did get the Forward Angle on the
Launch bays correct. the fighters did not launch strait out they launched
at a forward angle from the ship.

On a side note the number of launch tubs on this model where off as well. i
think it had like 24 or 25 launch tubes per broadside. but this model was
not what i would call a real scale model of the ship. it had a number of
serious Inconsistencies compared to the one you saw every week on the show.

For Example there is a "Tube" type stricture running from the port landing
bay to starboard landing bay underneath the Galactica's main hull. my
Assumption in my game was that this "tube" allowed for viper/shuttle
storage and maintenance. it also allowed for the moving of ships from on
bay to another depending on the situation. IE say in battle Alpha bay was
damaged in such a way that no viper recoveries could be made but the
forward launch facilities where still operable. you could recover vipers in
beta bay and move them to alphas launch tubes.

on the model this structure is not a "tube" but a portion of the main ships
hull. in fact the mid Bay Pylon is also molded into this structure when it
should not be. so if you use the model as a guide the Mid Pylon is actually
part of this huge under hull mass. However if you watch the show there are
some nice starboard side flanking shots of the Galactica as she moves away
from you. in these shots you can see the Mid Pylon is its own separate
structure. it also comes down at a different angle than the Fore and Aft
Pylons.

I am no engineer but my "feeling" is that the mid Pylon serves as some sort
of load bearing or structural reenforcement member for the entire
structure.

Gads I'm talking to much. on a side note the released those models again
recently i wanted to buy them so i could build a second Battlestar to go
with my "Pegasus". 8)i still have my original Battlestar hanging from the
ceiling in my Office at the house 8P

Bill


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231704.EVL07840@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Kiri Aradia Morgan says
>
>Economic systems such as the one in ST:TNG work the way they 
>do because of labor replacement.  Replicators and robotics 
>and "holograms" (that aren't holograms) ensure that human 
>beings don't have to flip burgers, type other people's 
>correspondence, etc.  I don't know who does the plumbing.  

That's what I liked about Babylon 5.  There were not only 
people who cleaned the plumbing, there were jobless, 
desperate people as well.  I find that any other 
representation of human society is unreal in the extreme.

The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST 
series is that everyone is an officer.

ObTrav: IMTU the advent of new technology hasn't liberated 
too many of the working poor - in fact, in some cases, it's 
just made them the non-working poor.  There's a great 
Stanislaw Lem story along those lines...
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
References: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <02042318594616.03729@avlendris>

On Tuesday 23 April 2002 17:04, you wrote:
> >After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video
> >(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net
>
> seems
>
> >utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was
>
> a
>
> >Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters).
>
> I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 (in fact
> i try to pretend it never happened.)
 

I think we all did that ;->

I don't know if I have the heart to tell you.. you seemed to have put in a 
lot of work... but the vipers launch tubes come out along the "jaw line" of 
the Galactica, along the bottom edge of the "head" part. Also, if you watch 
the vipers emerge, more than one emerge at a time. What I always wondered 
was.... why Didn't they launch them from the "pods", why did they go to the 
trouble of moving them up to the "head"?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:12:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisc
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEIKCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: wlewis@mailbag.com
>
>My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete
the
>process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be spending the
evening
>of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San Francisco. If there are
any
>fellow Travellers who would care to get to gether with me that evening for
beer
>and/or conversation, please let me know.

When does your flight arrive, and when would you like to meet?  The San
Francisco Airport Holiday Inn is not in San Francisco, nor is it actually
very close to the airport, if I'm thinking of the right hotel -- but that
won't stop us from meeting someone who is really travelling.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <OFC0ADB44D.1ECBB5A6-ON85256BA4.005A572C@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEEEDMAA.tml@downport.com>

No scale, eh? Too bad. That might have been your answer right there :(

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
>
> >Model of what?
>
> Of the Galactica. put out by Revell or Monogram i think. had
[snip]
> but this model was
> not what i would call a real scale model of the ship. it had a number of
> serious Inconsistencies compared to the one you saw every week on
> the show.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:23:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:23:09 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFDA0A27EA.2AAADE7D-ON85256BA4.005EE7AF@pheaa.org>







>I don't know if I have the heart to tell you.. you seemed to have put in a

>lot of work... but the vipers launch tubes come out along the "jaw line"
of
>the Galactica, along the bottom edge of the "head" part. Also, if you
watch
>the vipers emerge, more than one emerge at a time. What I always wondered
>was.... why Didn't they launch them from the "pods", why did they go to
the
>trouble of moving them up to the "head"?

No they don't launch from the head. if you look at the movies during the
launch sequence they once and a while show an over the ship shot. you see
the vipers emerging from the forward part of the Pod. in fact i believe the
shot shows part of the forward portion of the pod where it slops back down
to a point.

Also if you look closely when the viper is on Approach to the landing bay
you will see all these vipers sitting in their launch cradles.

I had someone try to tell me this before but i went back and watched my
videos and confirmed the things i have said.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>; from traveller_tv@yahoo.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:20:37AM -0700
References: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost> <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020423113808.B6061@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:20:37AM -0700, Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
> great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
> money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
> putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
> retiring tomorrow.

It's a Ponzi scheme, pure and simple.

What we really need is for FICA to go into an 401(k) which is paid out
to one after some age, and is inheritable.  I don't mind enforced
savings for the future.  What I mind is being forced into a pyramid
scheme which we _cannot win_.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A Democracy: Three wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.
A Republic: The flock gets to vote for which wolves vote on dinner.
A Constitutional Republic: Voting on dinner is expressly forbidden, and
  the sheep are armed.
          --Anonymous

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:46:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:46:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>; from martinjd@globalnet.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:50:22PM +0100
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com> <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:50:22PM +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> We don't have a license to do GURPS products. 

You don't need one, any more than East Taiwan Metal & Plastic needs a
license to manufacture a Ford compatible gas cap.  As long as no
patent, trademark or copyright is infringed, one can do anything.  I
believe that interoperability is still protected, even in the
(horrendous) DMCA.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Earth is degenerating these days.  Bribery and corruption abound.
Children no longer mind their parents, every man wants to write a book,
and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching.
                           --Assyrian stone tablet, c. 2800 B.C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <200204231755.g3NHtrJ15709@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> 
>Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:46:08 +0100
>Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
...
>After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video 
>(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net seems 
>utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was a 
>Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters). 

  Well, the box for the Revell-Monogram kit says 45 cm :)  The fluff
text in the instructions says 2000' long, which isn't much better. 

  ISTR that there's a fairly serious treatment of this (based on 
one of the scale models from the series?) at:  www.chrispappas.com
IAC, there _must_ be a Galactica web-ring.

  In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the 
openings on the launch/landing bays.

  And on said Revell-Monogram model (85-3618) those openings are
no more than 4mm on a 400+mm ship. So 800m length looks to be a
minimum; given the proportions, perhaps around 500,000 Dt?

  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:18:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:18:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231803.g3NI3xJ17762@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
...
>>  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
>>modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a 
>>substantial public investment in infrastructure? It's called 
>>the Third World.
>
>There's a balance to be struck there.  It's possible to spend 
>too much, or make the definition of infrastructure too vague.  

  Heck, yes - bureaucracies (whether corporate or government)
are fully able to make horrid investment decisions. As can
individuals, of course :(

...Also, it's a good thing for governments to invest in 
>areas where venture capitalists fear to tread (rural electric 
>power, the original Internet), but it's also good to know 
>when those things should become private.

  Agree, broadly, although I think there's much merit in the
arguments for maintaining public ownership of some "natural
monopoly" items of infrastructure.

  ObTrav: the IN is _the_ crucial piece of the 3I's public 
infrastructure; the Throne maintains an effective monopoly
on its own ownership. Right?

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231803.g3NI3xJ17762@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019586447.9084.ajackson@ping>

Steven Hudson writes:

>   ObTrav: the IN is _the_ crucial piece of the 3I's public 
> infrastructure; the Throne maintains an effective monopoly
> on its own ownership. Right?

Well, by definition the IN is only controlled by the Imperium.  However, the
Throne does not have an effective monopoly on interstellar naval forces.

However, the other public infrastructure controlled by the throne is just as
crucial (though, once again, not a monopoly).  That's starports.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:35:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:35:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
Message-ID: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was revisiting the idea of the solo adventure as mentioned 
a while back.  And then I was surfing someone's blog today, 
and it had a parody of an Ayn Rand story (she is rather 
formulaic).  And that reminded me of a gizmo I got from an 
old copy of Spy Magazine that helps you become a fashionable 
writer in New York, writing in the style, of say, Bret Easton 
Ellis.

It's a thing with a sliding card, and you make your 
selections and then read your story.  

It would be great if someone could write a plot 
generator/navigator that used CT rules and ran on a Palm.  I 
don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play 
backgammon on the Metro.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:39:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:39:18 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <200204231834.g3NIYtJ26544@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

...
>  In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
>a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the 
>openings on the launch/landing bays.

  FWIW, there are photos of a scale model of a Galactica Shuttle at:
        http://www.EdMiarecki.com/Formatting/re06.html

  ISTR from the show that those windows aren't small, so that may be
in the 200 Dt range for Trav - guestimates, anyone?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:27:25PM -0400
References: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423124144.B6115@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:27:25PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> I don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
> backgammon on the Metro.

Ah, but there's also solitaire.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
'Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US
 companies like Microsoft.'                         --some AOLer
'To this end we dedicate ourselves...'                     --Don

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:46:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jim Catchpole)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:46:48 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
References: <200204231755.g3NHtrJ15709@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <008801c1eaf6$93b2af60$7b000150@jimcatchpole>

----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.ca>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 23 April 2002 18:54
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?


> >From: Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie>
> >Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:46:08 +0100
> >Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?

>   In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
> a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the
> openings on the launch/landing bays.
>
>   And on said Revell-Monogram model (85-3618) those openings are
> no more than 4mm on a 400+mm ship. So 800m length looks to be a
> minimum; given the proportions, perhaps around 500,000 Dt?
>

Well,  from memory,  the book of the film said 'over a mile long'. It also
claimed the ship was over 200 years old.

I don't know if you could consider that reliable though (my memory or the
book) ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:56:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:56:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
>> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being
tried
>> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
>> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
>> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?
>
>Not off-hand, but that sounds like one of Harry Harrison's from _War
>with the Robots_.

Isaac Asimov, The Caves of Steel, circa 1952.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:59:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:59:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFBB88BA8A.57A354AF-ON85256BA4.00674941@pheaa.org>





...
>  In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
>a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the
>openings on the launch/landing bays.

  FWIW, there are photos of a scale model of a Galactica Shuttle at:
        http://www.EdMiarecki.com/Formatting/re06.html

 If pop up a level on the website he has the Galactica model there. if you
look closely to the pod in some of those pictures you can see the launch
tubes running down the sides of the bay. intermittently you see spots where
gun emplacements are nested in-between launch tubes.

great site.

Bill



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:01:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:01:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <20020423124144.B6115@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231147070.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:27:25PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >
> > I don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
> > backgammon on the Metro.
> 
> Ah, but there's also solitaire.
> 
Where on earth is it that people pay $400 USD for a palm pilot?  I don't
have one, but I have never heard of anyone paying that much for one.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423153922.00b8bec0@urbin.net>

At 02:27 PM 4/23/02 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>I was revisiting the idea of the solo adventure as mentioned
>a while back.  And then I was surfing someone's blog today,
>and it had a parody of an Ayn Rand story (she is rather
>formulaic).  And that reminded me of a gizmo I got from an
>old copy of Spy Magazine that helps you become a fashionable
>writer in New York, writing in the style, of say, Bret Easton
>Ellis.
>
>It's a thing with a sliding card, and you make your
>selections and then read your story.
>
>It would be great if someone could write a plot
>generator/navigator that used CT rules and ran on a Palm.  I
>don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
>backgammon on the Metro.

You should have gone for the i705.  I keep up with my various Traveller 
PBEM games using my Palm.
You may not get the coverage in the Metro, but for cases like that, I 
download the mail first.
Then I read it, delete & reply.  When I get signal again, I toggle the 
outbox to be sent and empty the trash.

I'm also using Documents to Go store character data.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC5B895.7010800@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>>
>>>Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being
>>
> tried
> 
>>>out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
>>>letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
>>>predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

Wan't that called 'Brillo' ?


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:54:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:54:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip about robot policeman stories>

My favorite robot policeman is ED-209.  I have the feeling 
that if they do introduce robot policemen, they will be 
far "dumber" than the ones in the science fiction story 
you're talking about.

Me, I'm waiting for the autonomous infantryman.  Of course, 
you can get a real infantryman pretty cheap, so prices will 
have to come down.  

Of course, you can't beat an autonomous robot infantryman for 
sheer terror.  It's probably a bit harder to kill than a real 
infantryman, and it's probably a much better shot. And if you 
manage to kill it, all you've done is trash some electronic 
parts.  Not very satisfying.  And you probably can't capture 
one - even if you caught one in a net, it's probably too 
dangerous.

I think that the first versions should be some sort of spider-
legged robot along the lines of some of Rodney Brooks' 
creations.  They should hide in the daytime and come out at 
night.  They should be airdropped into the rear, and they 
should be used to spy on things.  Also, if discovered, they 
should shoot every warm body they see.  Maybe even give them 
a blade or two to become an intelligent lawnmower.

The psychological implications are great.  Now, who wants to 
go on patrol tonight, knowing that if you find one of these 
things, it's going to make meat by-product out of most of 
your patrol?

I think a gadget like this is already "do-able"
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:57:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:57:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
Message-ID: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>

For anyone that might know the answer:

While working on my Mire landgrab, I have come up with a question that I hope someone on the TML might know an answer for.  (Preferably a correct one.  :-) )

What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain in order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?  The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.  Can that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without affecting Mire's orbit?

Thanks.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 14:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 13:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
Message-ID: <200204232004.EVR06043@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Mike West" asks
>
>What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must 
>maintain in order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?  
>The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny 
>sun at a distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is 
>assigned to .4 AU.  Can that second planet orbit closer 
>than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without affecting Mire's orbit?
>

I would think that would depend on the mass of the planets 
involved.  Earth is at 1 AU, so Venus and Mercury have to be 
at fractions of an AU.  They both seem to have nearly 
circular orbits, so they don't seem to be affecting each 
other in a major way.

________________
Employees smoking
Off company property
I'm doing their work

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 14:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 13:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


>> We don't have a license to do GURPS products. 
>
>You don't need one, any more than East Taiwan Metal & Plastic needs a
>license to manufacture a Ford compatible gas cap.  As long as no
>patent, trademark or copyright is infringed, one can do anything.  I
>believe that interoperability is still protected, even in the
>(horrendous) DMCA.

Whether legal or not (HIGHLY debatable) more than one lawsuit has happened=
 over just such activity. While the suit may or may not end up thrown out=
 in the long run, personally I don't have the time, resources, or desire to=
 deal with the possibility. Without an OK from SJG on the issue it ain't=
 gonna happen (and yes we have approached SJG about this already).

Hunter




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 14:28:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 13:28:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423165305.2B007279D2@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E1706qU-0005s2-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> shudson@lightspeed.ca says
> >
> >  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
> >modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a 
> >substantial public investment in infrastructure? It's called 
> >the Third World.
> >
> 
> There's a balance to be struck there.  It's possible to spend 
> too much, or make the definition of infrastructure too 
> vague.  Also, it's a good thing for governments to invest in 
> areas where venture capitalists fear to tread (rural electric 
> power, the original Internet), but it's also good to know 
> when those things should become private.
> 
> Not Exactly ObTrav: I firmly believe that instead of spending 
> money on the Space Shuttle, the government should be spending 
> on an initiative to get companies to build a low cost means 
> to get into orbit.  Any idea that could work should be on the 
> table.  Companies should get incentives for working in 
> space.  We need to get off this rock and make money, instead 
> of doing science in a tin can in orbit.

This would only work if there were viable companies that actually 
had some desire to do any form of space industry.  This is not true. 
Space is regarded (rightly) as pretty risky and (IMHO wrongly) as 
pie-in-the-sky by pretty much any large corporation you can name.  
The L-5 folks tried to get various companies interested in solar 
power sats in the 70s and early 80s and we all see where *that* 
went.

IMHO, until both the costs and the the risks are reduced *and* the 
government gives serious inventives, we will see no private space 
industry.  I'm also guessing that costs and risks will only be 
significantly reduced when NASA (or some other national space 
agency) builds a nice large space station that various companies 
can simply more their operations into.

Sadly, the only private individuals who are working hard to get into 
space are pretty darn fringe (like the nut out in Eastern Oregon who 
is building his own personal suborbital rocket) and none of them 
have enough money to make a descent show of it.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 15:06:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 14:06:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
In-Reply-To: <3CC3930A.D2B8F94D@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20423.134050.0q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Richard Wilson writes:
>>So this is the reason that starports are on the planet's surface and 
>>highports aren't as common.
>
> http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%7B1F54AEED-A34B-41
> 1B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D
>
> JOY! Hydrogen wells! JOY! That will make the Downports in systems
> without gas giants or other significant surface water so much easier to
> deal with. I can see it now...

Thing is, worlds without significant surface water may not have much
subsurface hydrogen. After all, it's the water that the bacteria *make*
the hydrogen from.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 15:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 14:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>; from trav@RPGRealms.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:24:51PM -0400
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com> <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net> <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <20020423153918.A6692@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:24:51PM -0400, Hunter Gordon wrote:
> 
> While the suit may or may not end up thrown out in the long run,
> personally I don't have the time, resources, or desire to deal with
> the possibility.

This makes me sad--that someone cannot do something which is perfectly
alright for fear of having to defend its rightness.

Of course, Mr. Miller could always state in his license terms that
Traveller licensees can only be compatible with him and themselves,
not with one another.  _That_ would be quite proper, although I'm not
certain why he'd do it.  Perhaps to ensure a market for his own books,
or something.

Incidentally, can anyone tell me if GT or T20 is required to be
compatible with Miller's future work?  By which I mean will the
licensees be required to print conversions, or is Miller explicitly
allowed to print his own?  Just curious.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
  Anulos qui animum ostendunt omnes gestemus!
  Let's all wear mood rings!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 23 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
References: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <20020424075041.A7785@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mike West wrote:
> What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain
> in order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?

That depends very much on the planets.  Their orbits could actually
overlap in distance, like those of Pluto and Neptune.  Such an
arrangement can be quite stable, because each planet keeps the other
one in position with resonance effects.  In such a case, one planet
has an orbital period that is (on average) an exact ratio of the
other, e.g. 3:2.

It's probably not even too uncommon an arrangement: despite our
current inability to detect any but the largest planets about other
stars, we have already found one system with two planets having orbits
that are not very far apart.


>  The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a
> distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.
> Can that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU)
> without affecting Mire's orbit?

Well, not without *affecting* the other's orbit, since every planet
affects every other in some small way.  Without disrupting the other,
certainly.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:06:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:06:08 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <3CC499EA.1020901@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20423.140845.6w2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> D&D may not have been pure in a mechanical sense, but like BASIC, and 
> 'You have SPAM!' it is now the de-facto standard of comparison..the 
> reason it got there is because it was 'the fustest with the mostest'.
>
> (says an old-timer who remembers back when 'September on the Net' 
> actually meant that it was, indeed, September...ahh those halcyon 
> pre-AOL, pre-Prodigy, pre-Compuserv days...)

Actually, I was on the Net before Compuserve had access to it. And on
Compuserve as well. They weren't all that bad. The sysopsa on the
Forums mostly kept folks in line. 

AOL on the other hand...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:14:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:14:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020423153918.A6692@4dv.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>
 <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <20020423153918.A6692@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <200204231817330495.D3087258@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>> While the suit may or may not end up thrown out in the long run,
>> personally I don't have the time, resources, or desire to deal with
>> the possibility.
>
>This makes me sad--that someone cannot do something which is perfectly
>alright for fear of having to defend its rightness.

Yes but unfortunately in today's environment, it is all too likely to=
 occur. Good IP attorneys are ungodly expensive, a realization I have=
 already had to deal with more than once since I entered this business.

>Of course, Mr. Miller could always state in his license terms that
>Traveller licensees can only be compatible with him and themselves,
>not with one another.  _That_ would be quite proper, although I'm not
>certain why he'd do it.  Perhaps to ensure a market for his own books,
>or something.

That is something I doubt Marc would ever considered.

>Incidentally, can anyone tell me if GT or T20 is required to be
>compatible with Miller's future work?  By which I mean will the
>licensees be required to print conversions, or is Miller explicitly
>allowed to print his own?  Just curious.

I can't speak for GT, but I assume they have a license similar to our own=
 in which we are not required to be compatible with future work by Marc.=
 Then again it would not need to be required in our case as I would happily=
 add stats to support any new material by Marc if he wished us to do so. It=
 was my choice to include CT stats (with Marc's ok) and material in our=
 products, not something required by my license. I just wanted to also=
 support CT and the reprints. 






From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:33:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:33:29 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <00cf01c1eb16$c0dab0d0$a3e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C1EB1F.0FF78DC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Okay, I asked this before but all my mail is gone in the great HD =
explosion.

I need a cover for the Diaspora Phoenix novel; there's not money =
available. We have a mockup of the cover but the actual pic needs to be =
done. Anyone care to help out?


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses

------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C1EB1F.0FF78DC0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Okay, I asked this before but all my =
mail is gone=20
in the great HD explosion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I need a cover for the Diaspora Phoenix =
novel;=20
there's not money available. We have a mockup of the cover but the =
actual pic=20
needs to be done. Anyone care to help out?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C1EB1F.0FF78DC0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
References: <3CC55510.8412.A77E03@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC5E36E.801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Well the importance of even centurions in much of that strife argues 
> for them being considered officers - very few coups in the modern world 
> are started and managed by sergeants.

Au contraire. A number of coups in Africa have been started by Non-coms. 
IIRC one of the Liberian coup leaders started as a Master Sergeant, 
wasn't he? Robert someting or another...

Also, I believe it was a number of Non-coms who started one of the coups 
against Noriega in Panama, just before the US invasion.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:47:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:47:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423165307.DA28C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020423153147.00a543e0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:19:04 -0600, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

>Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
>nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
>but it's an interesting way to look at it.

Well, that follows naturally from the idea that every adult should own and 
carry a gun.

Unfortunately, this kind of situation (at either scale) seems to require 
people who aren't stupid.  While the increased selection pressures may or 
may not eventually produce such a population, I don't think I'd like to 
experience the weeding-out process, any more than I'd like to live in his 
Coventry.  I /like/ civilization, thank you very much.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <02042316460813.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <001001c1eb19$a772e880$0f01a8c0@terry>

> After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on
video
> (hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net
> seems
> utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found
was
> a
> Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters).
> 
> Anyone have any clue?

It seems there is some discussion on the matter. Check out this link.

http://ravensbranch.tripod.com/galacticasize.html

Regards,

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020423153147.00a543e0@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231558080.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Kelly St.Clair wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:19:04 -0600, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> 
> >Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
> >nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
> >but it's an interesting way to look at it.
> 
> Well, that follows naturally from the idea that every adult should own and 
> carry a gun.
> 
Yes, but...

Guns can kill one person.  A firefight, even a large one, is over when
it's over, although some gunshot wounds don't kill immediately.

Nukes don't work that way.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:12:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020423153147.00a543e0@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <20020423165307.DA28C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423190649.00cb5d28@192.168.0.1>

At 03:40 PM 4/23/2002 -0700, Kelly St.Clair wrote:
>On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:19:04 -0600, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>>Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
>>nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
>>but it's an interesting way to look at it.
>Well, that follows naturally from the idea that every adult should own and 
>carry a gun.
>Unfortunately, this kind of situation (at either scale) seems to require 
>people who aren't stupid.  While the increased selection pressures may or 
>may not eventually produce such a population, I don't think I'd like to 
>experience the weeding-out process, any more than I'd like to live in his 
>Coventry.  I /like/ civilization, thank you very much.

I just finished reading Coventry.  Coventry was his "your right to swing 
your fist ends at someone else's nose" system.
That was America after the Second Revolution, that was civilization.
If you rejected Coventry or were denied Coventry, you were sent to the 
walled off section where the strong ruled the weak.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17A35@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

The emphatically polite Larsen:
Either that or barracks ashore for ALL personnel.  The SSNs and SSBNs have
always housed their crews ashore when the vessel is in port.  The rest of
the Navy should do the same.  Putting up with cramped living conditions
would be tolerable during deployments IF you knew you'd be returning to
barracks back in port.  As it stands now, most naval personnel live in the
factories where they work.

Mikey:
Australian DOD has always had onshore quarters for Naval personnel, or
provided rent subsidies and the like to live in town (where appropriate).
That's weird the US DOD does not...

Oh my god. 

That means Australia is more advanced than the US in Naval Living Conditions

Permission to shout bravo at an annoyingly loud volume!

PS I had a tour of our Freemantle class Patrol Boats. Apparently the washing
machines, which were designed to use sea water, never really worked so a
crewman gets saddled with laundromat duty when they pull into port, which is
only once every 6-8 weeks, and has to wash almost all the clothing of the
ship's company. They all wear these overall things and often for many days
at a time. As a civilian I often find it hard to comprehend the privations
these people have to deal with which is why it is easy for me to call them
sir or ma'am - cause they sure as hell have earned it. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <02042318594616.03729@avlendris>
References: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
 <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020423183217.00ac19d8@mail.earthlink.net>

At 06:59 PM 4/23/2002 +0100, Brian Caball wrote:
>On Tuesday 23 April 2002 17:04, William Lane wrote:
> > I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 (in fact
> > i try to pretend it never happened.)
>
>
>I think we all did that ;->

IMHO, there was precisely 1 good episode of Galactica 1980, "The Return of 
Starbuck".

Of course, IIRC it was actually an unfilmed Battlestar episode

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:41:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:41:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net>
References: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca> <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

>There are things for which it makes sense that they be state-run
>(e.g. power & water distribution, roads &c.) but not state-subsidised
>(i.e. you pay for what you burn/drink/whatever).=20

Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
bathing and sanitation...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:59:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:59:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231653550.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Stephen Tempest wrote:

> "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:
> 
> >There are things for which it makes sense that they be state-run
> >(e.g. power & water distribution, roads &c.) but not state-subsidised
> >(i.e. you pay for what you burn/drink/whatever). 
> 
> Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> bathing and sanitation...

You can lead a man to water, but can you make him bathe?

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:03:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:03:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>; from tml@stempest.demon.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000
References: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca> <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net> <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020423175758.A7026@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> 
> Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> bathing and sanitation...

That means you want the rest of the state to fund your desire to live
where it's expensive (those subsidies have to come from somewhere).
That's hardly a good thing.

Better to let living in the overcrowded city become as expensive as it
is, and then watch as people leave, thereby easing crowding.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Cloning forces us to ask some hard questions.  For example,
which person, the original or the clone, gets to wear the
goatee and be evil?                    --Stewart Nicholls

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:15:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:15:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423175758.A7026@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>

Robert A. Uhl writes:
> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > 
> > Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> > would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> > bathing and sanitation...
> 
> That means you want the rest of the state to fund your desire to live
> where it's expensive (those subsidies have to come from somewhere).

Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
being paid for by the occupants of the city.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:29:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:29:41 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8eb83b1f99b@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:49 AM -0700 4/23/02, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>This kind of economic system will ONLY work if no one has a "shit job".
>
>If I had my druthers I would spend every day writing.  I might or might
>not make any money on it, but that's what I'd do.  I do not work as a
>physicians' administrative assistant for the sheer pleasure of it.  It's
>annoying and boring much of the time, even though I believe in what we are
>doing here.

This is correct.

A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more people living on 
public assistance.  (It may not be 50%, but it will depend on what 
the level is set at).

What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a 
fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who 
think they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to 
complain that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and 
agitate for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact 
that lead to such a system in the first place, since the rationale 
that supports it can be easily used to support increases, and whether 
society wants to try and "buy" them off).

There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family 
(?).  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those 
who went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this 
is the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of 
"non-working" class in Europe....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <02042316460813.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020424002902.17680.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> wrote:
> Hey Guys
> 
> After a friend got the entirety of season 1
> Battlestar Galactica on video 
> (hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of
> the ship. The 'net seems 
> utterly void of technical specs or what have you:
> the best i've found was a 
> Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters). 
> 
> Anyone have any clue?
> 
> -Brian
> 
> 
  >>
  FOR SHAME!!!!

  BSG has a very strong 'cult' following online. try
these sites:

http://www.battlestargalactica.com/ This is Richard
Hatch/Capt Apollo's site. He's pretty much the leading
light of the effort to revive the series;

http://www.tecr.com/galactica/index.html This is the
BSG Tech Site; there are some oddities in his science,
but it's pretty good, all the same;

http://www.bsgtigger.com/stories/bsgfan.html
http://www.bsgtigger.com/stories/bsgcross.html
These two are strictly fanfic sites, aka, a
conglomeration of people who love the show, and love
to write.

It gets a little stronger every year, as more people
rediscover it, or find it for the first time.

ON RANT

And, yes, although most of the fans feel sorry for the
actors/writers, et al, from '1980', it is almost
universally despised and ignored. 

From the pilots' first airing, it stayed in the top 20
until it was canc'd.

I swear, network tv could never get it's act together.
When ABC canc'd BSG, they replaced it with 'Mork &
Mindy', which was doing pretty well at the time; not
even Robin Williams could save that time slot. 

1980 was aired 6 weeks after ABC called Glenn Larsen
into their offices and gave him the green light for a
new season...as long as it was ready in 6 weeks. 

Now, you know why '1980' sucked so bad.

OFF RANT

MACessna
  >>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:37:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:37:38 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <001001c1eb19$a772e880$0f01a8c0@terry>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204240954460.7432-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:

 Fantastic subject and at least IMTU it is not OT. As i incorporated much
from that show for MU. In fact the concept of a Battle Star flaoting
around popping in and out of jump space or seen as ships leave or enter.
Like a ghost ship. Has been a running part. My 3I has any site where
Colonial artifacts are found as a red zone.

 Oh yes i have an original Viper model and the rocket. Both in need of
repair. Bought the Galactica at a con a while back. Still in the box. Yeah
I even have a few hundred of the trading cards. Was/am a big fan of the
show. FWIW I talked to some members of the fan club right after they had
returned from the IIRC 15th anniversary con in Calif. They were at OryCon
tht year. Acording to what I was told. Glen doesn't like the 1980 either
and most fans disregard it as never happening. Best they will call it is
"Galacta-spit"

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:41:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:41:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost> <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:20:37 -0700 (PDT), Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
>great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
>money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
>putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
>retiring tomorrow.  While I don't know where all the
>money went, I know that much went to pork barrel, and
>some went to folks who never paid that much in.
>
><SNIP>

Actually, the Social Security fund was never intended to operate in
the manner you state.  Your "Instead" is, in fact, the way it was
intended to operate from the start.  If that hadn't been the case,
Social Security wouldn't have been able to start paying benefits at
its inception.

That original structure was founded on the idea that the pool of
wage-earning taxpayers would always exceed the pool of recipients.  As
the US went through the demographic surge known as the Baby Boom, the
pool of taxpayers expanded greatly while the pool of Social Security
retirees wasn't greatly increasing.

With that large surge of money going into the system, it represented
an irresistible opportunity to the politicians to expand the benefits,
which is exactly what they did (arguably, not too much of a pork
barrel).  Further, the US government also changed the law to allow use
of the Social Security surplus to pay for some of the Reagan deficits
(which, depending upon your viewpoint, might be where the bulk of the
pork might be found).

Now, as the members of the Baby Boom start approaching retirement,
there are fewer members of the pool of wage-earning taxpayers who are
paying to support a demographic bulge of retirees.  Had the government
instead simply banked the surplus at a modest interest rate, it would
not be seeing the oncoming retirement crisis (instead, we would have
had a different crisis some time ago).

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:53:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:53:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <20020424000942.7DBCE27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020424000942.7DBCE27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <27vbcu01a2v6aa5bssq5jr9je1trnjboi5@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:03:51 -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
wrote:

>Where on earth is it that people pay $400 USD for a palm pilot?  I don't
>have one, but I have never heard of anyone paying that much for one.

Except for the wireless-enabled Palms, they don't cost that much - but the
high-end Sony Cli (a licensed PalmOS box) does retail for that kind of
money.


--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:56:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:56:10 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>

From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au>

     "Australian DOD has always had onshore quarters for Naval personnel, or 
provided rent subsidies and the like to live in town (where appropriate).  
That's weird the US DOD does not..."


Mr. Hughes,

     The US DOD provides shore housing or rent subsidies for married naval 
personnel or those with children.  It's the single folk who get the sticky 
end.  In some low rent areas, single crew are able to club together and rent 
apartments or homes.  Alas, USS California's home port was NAS Alameda, 
smack dab in the middle of the SF Bay area.

     "Oh my god.  That means Australia is more advanced than the US in Naval 
Living Conditions.  Permission to shout bravo at an annoyingly loud volume!"

     Permission gladly granted!  Oz is more advanced than the World's 
Biggest Banana Republic in many areas, brewing comes first to mind.

     "...a crewman gets saddled with laundromat duty when they pull into 
port, which is only once every 6-8 weeks, and has to wash almost all the 
clothing of the ship's company. They all wear these overall things and often 
for many days at a time."

     Good grief!  Sounds as if those PBs could be detected by odor alone!  
The 42 young men in my berthing compartment had laundry done twice weekly.  
Three or four days worth of skivvies, socks, and dungarees can get rather 
"high".  Pa Whipsnade, a Korean police action vet, visited my berthing area 
once and described it succintly; "Feet and flatulence."  He professed to 
prefer any one of several foxholes he dug.

ObTrav - Why aren't stewards paid more?  Providing creature comforts for 
crew and passengers surely must be very important.  Good stewards control 
morale in the uniformed services and can lure paying high passengers to your 
nondescript Beowulf.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEODMAA.tml@downport.com>

Whether intentional or not, it still fits the textbook definition of a ponzi
scheme. And a bad idea from the start. The fact that it got bigger and
messier just follows as the night the day. Putting money away in
interest-bearing accounts would be even worse. The best thing we could do is
end the program, encourage retirement savings, roll the cost of phasing it
out into the general fund and be done with it. While we're at it, phase out
the rest of the federal retirement system and send it all private. At least
if the politicians and bureaucrats had their cookies in the jar with ours
they might be more apt to keep an eye on the Enrons and Arthur-Andersens out
there, instead of being in bed with them.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of JR Holmes
>
> Actually, the Social Security fund was never intended to operate in
> the manner you state.  Your "Instead" is, in fact, the way it was
> intended to operate from the start.  If that hadn't been the case,
> Social Security wouldn't have been able to start paying benefits at
> its inception.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700
References: <20020423175758.A7026@4dv.net> <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020423190732.A7743@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
> being paid for by the occupants of the city.

Then why subsidise?  You're forcing the well-off to pay for water and
electricity for the less well-off.  To an extent this may be
appropriate, but I wonder to what extent, exactly.  Anyone deserves
enough water for drinking to keep from dying and bathing to keep
leprosy at bay, but any more than that should be on a pay-as-you-go
basis.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and writing an exact
man.                                                            --Bacon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 12:39:15AM +0000
References: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423191108.B7743@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 12:39:15AM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> 
>      Permission gladly granted!  Oz is more advanced than the World's 
> Biggest Banana Republic in many areas, brewing comes first to mind.

?!?  Come visit Colorado sometime.  I'll take you on a tour of
breweries to make any man of refined taste want to move here.  And I
am given to understand that Oregon is our superior.

Whereas the Australian homebrewers I've encountered have uniformly
lamented the qulity of the local beer, and admitted that they--or at
least their countrymen--are most interested in brewing a high-proof
product.

> ObTrav - Why aren't stewards paid more?

Does the IN have stewards?  Ours got rid of them:-(

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There is no problem which cannot be solved by the judicious application
of firepower.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC6AF7A.14446.75EB6C@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 9:20, Paul Walker wrote:

> The welfare system should exist for two reasons,
> helping those who can't work to survive, and
> encouraging those who can work to do so. 
> Unfortunately, that is not what government officials
> use it for.  They use it as a kick-back for votes. (I
> do confess to a US-centric view of politics, but I
> would imagine it is similar.)

That doesn't seem to happen here, even tough beneficaries are a 
significant portion of the electorate. In fact the usual way of using 
them to get votes is to come up with a new way a shafting the 
unemployed without it looking like you are.

> Because the government will be likely to take more
> than they need.  Someone will present the idea that we
> can't lower the poverty level but we may not get
> enough taxes to pay next year, so we better take a
> little extra to ensure that we can pay the poverty
> level in the future.  Not to mention that we need to
> take in more taxes for our pork barrel.  
> 
> I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
> great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
> money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
> putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
> retiring tomorrow.  While I don't know where all the
> money went, I know that much went to pork barrel, and
> some went to folks who never paid that much in.

With that sort of thing it's no wonder your tax rates are highish, the 
US social spending is immense and yet in some ways there is less to 
show for it than here is in the UK, even though the US is much 
wealthier.
 
> Maybe I'm not making sense.  Suffice it to say, that I
> don't trust the government to make the right
> decisions, and the negative tax seems to put much
> trust in the government to make the right decisions.

As far as I can see it doesn't do anything that the current systems 
don't (both here and in the US) - it just does it in a more direct and 
traceable way.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:20:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:20:56 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

As an infantryman, I remember my first "short" field 
exercise, in which I didn't get a real bath or have clothes 
laundered for a mere 20 days (I've been without a bath or 
clothes washed in the field for as long as three months).

After I returned to the barracks (to "raise morale" the 
colonel had the idea that we would march back; I thought the 
real reason was to save fuel costs for the helicopters).  
This was only about 10 miles, but you work up a good sweat 
that acts like "gravy" on smelly clothes.

My roommate got back first (we were two men in a three-man 
room).  He had time to throw his stuff in the washers and get 
a shower before I got back.  He then stopped me at the 
door. "Take off your s__t out there, and then come in and get 
a shower.  You're not bringing that smelly s__t in here."

I had to run my clothes through the washer three times before 
the water would rinse clear - it was nearly solid black the 
first time around.  After I had taken my shower, the clothes 
smelled like a dead animal.  And the socks -- well, they had 
turned from issue green to black, with stuff growing on them.

After the three month stint with no bath, I just threw the 
uniforms away - the stench was incredible.

I've woken up frozen to the ground in the morning, and I've 
been hidden well enough that passing soldiers took a leak on 
me.  Twice.  (tip: never hide under the edge of bushes, 
because men feel compelled to piss there) 

Having to live with foot odor and flatulence doesn't sound so 
bad.

ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you 
can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes 
about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people 
in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek 
across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be 
more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a 
plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful 
smell to the unwashed.
________________
Employees smoking
Off company property
I'm doing their work

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:13:54PM -0400
References: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423192811.A8321@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:13:54PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> After the three month stint with no bath, I just threw the 
> uniforms away - the stench was incredible.

I wonder how much of that was a side-effect of the exertion you must
have udnergone.  I ask because as a Scout I and my brothers noted that
several camp staffers were rather proud of not showering all summer.
The pattern we detected was that for the first few days there was no
problem, then for the next several weeks they reeked to high heaven
and then they began to _lose_ the smell.  In fact, they began to smell
more like the environment than aught else.

But they _did_ launder their clothes.  So perhaps that makes a
difference.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
That's how you know you're hooked on something; when it makes you forget
to drink beer.                     --Paul Mather, commenting on The Sims

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>The pattern we detected was that for the first few days 
>there was no problem, then for the next several weeks they 
>reeked to high heaven and then they began to _lose_ the 
>smell.  In fact, they began to smell more like the 
>environment than aught else.
>

Well, until I washed when I got back, that was the case.  
After a few weeks, I couldn't smell myself, and I don't think 
that anyone could really smell me, unlike the people who 
smelled like soap.

I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago, 
and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how 
you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin 
gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.

________________
Employees smoking
Off company property
I'm doing their work

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:58:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:58:16 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:46:21PM -0400
References: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423195559.A9418@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:46:21PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> Well, until I washed when I got back, that was the case.  
> After a few weeks, I couldn't smell myself, and I don't think 
> that anyone could really smell me, unlike the people who 
> smelled like soap.

I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head hurts:-(

> I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago, 
> and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how 
> you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin 
> gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.

Interesting.  I don't think I'm ever going to get a chance to test any
of this out, though...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I once successfully declined a departmental retreat, saying that on that
day I planned instead to advance.                    --Alan J. Rosenthal

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <00cf01c1eb16$c0dab0d0$a3e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8EB60FE.39D2%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

And I'm also a  full time idiot - sorry about that post everybody.

Joe Webb 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head 
>hurts:-(
>
After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless 
they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which 
case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.

My roommate could smell me when I came back, after he had 
bathed.  

In the field after a few weeks, I could smell bathed people 
at a considerable distance if they were upwind of me.  But it 
didn't work the other way for them (if I was upwind of them).
________________
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:14:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:14:28 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
References: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV32IKcQEF2a9jE11o0001c2c0@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon wrote,

>I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago,
and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how
you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin
gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.<

That is one of my favorite movie lines.
As you note, he was joking. He was asked why he didn't bathe. His response
was that body oils, combined with sweat and dirt formed a natural barrier to
water. (He was dirty because he didn't bathe, he didn't bathe because he was
going to get dirty in a trench anyway.)
Later in the movie when they come upon a group of female Soviet soldiers, he
climbs into a hot tub with one of them fully clothed.

A really fun movie.
:)


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:18:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:18:32 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <B8EB60FE.39D2%jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B8EB62AD.39D7%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

on 4/23/02 7:05 PM, Joe Webb at jwwebb@earthlink.net wrote:

> And I'm also a  full time idiot - sorry about that post everybody.
> 
> Joe Webb 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

OK, idiot that is too fast on the draw - the original post that shouldn't
have gone was bounced.

So return to your home folks, nothing to see here (unless you count somebody
slinking under a rock a sight to see).

Joe Webb


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/23/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you
> can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes
> about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people
> in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek
> across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be
> more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a
> plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful
> smell to the unwashed.

An excellent point.  Which is why some hunters use MOPP gear to hide their
own scent.  I was always partial to Shaklee's Basic-H.  One of those
biodegradable soaps that proto-enviornmentalists (like my parents) used in
the late '70.  I don't even know if it's made anymore.  But it had no scent.
I carefully hoarded my supply for years.

(A quick search of the web shows it's still out there, though it looks
different).

I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

I've never had anyone pee on me, but I have had an unhappy policeman step
close enough to me that I could plainly make out the stitching on his Corfam
shoe in the middle of the night.  Camouflage does work.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:43:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:43:16 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8EB6984.582B5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/23/02 7:07 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> "Robert A. Uhl" says
>> 
>> I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head
>> hurts:-(
>> 
> After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless
> they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which
> case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.
> 
> My roommate could smell me when I came back, after he had
> bathed.  
> 
> In the field after a few weeks, I could smell bathed people
> at a considerable distance if they were upwind of me.  But it
> didn't work the other way for them (if I was upwind of them).

The amazing power of the nose.  After a while, it doesn't smell the stinks
it's around, but can easily detect new smells.  Quite an engineering marvel.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Combined Gurps/Megatraveller Year 1116(Long)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F110VniSnRMWuL0000016a@hotmail.com>

For your reading pleasure, I've combined the timelines from Gurps Traveller 
& Megatraveller. This is for the Year 1116, with the rest of the years 
following shortly.

Graham

========================================================================
GURPS TRAVELLER / MEGATRAVELLER TIMELINE COMPARISON.

Year: 1116

Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                           131-1116	(GURPS)
FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH

Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian was killed today when his personal gig was 
destroyed in a massive explosion of unknown origin. The gig was inbound to 
the palace from Dulinor's flagship, the cruiser Sargon, when it failed to 
change course in response to traffic control instructions, and then vanished 
in a massive fireball while in deep space.

Craft were immediately dispatched from Sargon to search for survivors, and 
were soon joined by vessels of the Imperial Navy. Search and rescue 
operations continue, but searchers acknowledge that the extremely violent 
nature of the explosion make th e possibility of any survivors increasingly 
small.

The archduke was en route to an audience with the Emperor, the subject of 
which was not available at press time. Emperor Strephon has ordered the 
Imperial Navy to take charge of a full investigation of the explosion in 
cooperation with other authorities, and has ordered Sargon and her crew into 
quarantine at the Imperial Naval base at Capital for the duration of the 
investigation. Naval vessels are in the process of tracking down any and all 
vessels that were in the area and have ordered tapes of all communications 
to and from the gig subjected to the most rigorous analysis.

The Emperor expressed his deep sadness at the news, and has sent a formal 
proclamation of his condolences to the people of the Domain of Ilelish and a 
private letter to Dulinor's wife and daughter. Funeral arrangements for the 
Archduke have not been announced.

Also killed in the blast were the Archduke's Naval aide Volante Imprey, the 
crew of the gig, and a number of other individuals. A full list of victims 
is not available at this time.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                           132-1116	(GURPS)

In a tersely-worded press release issued today, General Mueni Arap Rutan, 
commanding officer of the Imperial Guard, announced that Colonel Hiroshi 
Enera, commander of the Ilelish Regiment of the Imperial Guard, and three 
other officers of the same regimen t have submitted their resignations to 
the Emperor, effective immediately.

None of the officers could be reached for comment, and General Rutan refused 
to comment further except to say that the officers involved had all cited 
personal reasons for their resignations.

The Ilelish Regiment was serving its normal month-long period as honor 
guards in the Imperial palace when the resignations occurred, and continues 
to serve in that position. No replacements have been appointed to the 
vacancies thus created - the regiment is currently the personal command of 
General Rutan. A political motivation for the resignations is suspected, but 
no comments from anyone involved have been forthcoming.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 132-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Emperor Strephon Aella Alkhalikoi was assassinated at 1517 hours local time, 
132-1116, in the Grand Reception Hall of the Imperial Palace above 
Capital/Core. In the ensuing firefight, the Empress Iolanthe and the Grand 
Princess Iphegenia were also killed, along with the Aslan Yerlyaruiwo 
ambassador, twelve Imperial Guards, and a number of bystanders.

In the following minutes, Archduke Dulinor of Ilelish appeared before the 
cameras of the Reception Hall, claimed the crown of the Emperor by the right 
of assassination, and scattered holocrystals documenting his claim to the 
surviving crowd. He ascended the steps of the dais and sat on the iridium 
Throne briefly before leaving in the company of his bodyguard.

System Control Central reported tracking the Archduke's cruiser leaving the 
Capital system minutes later. Fleet elements are reported in pursuit.

Capital has been placed under martial law. Off-planet transportation has 
been suspended temporarily. Naval headquarters has issued a statement that 
the situation is stable and under control. Rioting is reported in the city.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 133-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The Imperial Palace above Capital has been sealed by Naval Security troops. 
Dulinor is rumored to remain concealed in the palace with a company of 
bodyguards. It remains unclear whether Dulinor fled the Capital system 
yesterday aboard his cruiser, or if he remains in the Palace. Occasional 
plasma flashes have been reported along the Grand Concourse.

Imperial officers at the scene refused comment.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 134-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Captain Sir Gerals Spirlandin, commanding the Honor Company of the 2nd 
Imperial Marine regiment, denied reports that Duke Varian, Strephon's nephew 
and heir apparent to the Iridium Throne, was killed in skirmishes within the 
Imperial Palace yesterday.

Spirlandin, 32, of Ibaru/Zarushagar, said, "The situation is under control, 
but identities of persons in the Palace remain unconfirmed."

News Service personnel have not yet been allowed inside the Palace.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 135-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Preparations for Emperor Strephon's funeral tomorrow continued without 
incident. Empress Iolanthe will be buried at the same time. Grand Princess 
Iphegenia will be buried Thirday.

The Admiralty confirmed today that the Imperial Palace has been cleared of 
disloyal elements. The apartments accorded Dulinor in the Palace have been 
retaken, with no sign of the Archduke.

The body of Prince Varian, until today heir apparent to the Iridium Throne, 
was recovered from the Imperial Palace this afternoon, and now lies in state 
alongside the Emperor in the central Hall of Nobles beneath the Moot Spire. 
Varian's funeral is scheduled for Thirday.

Crowds of mourners continue to file through the Hall of Nobles. Responding 
to the press of crowds, last minute arrangements have been made to keep the 
hall open through the night.

The Office of the Mint has suspended production of the cr1 coin pending 
coronation of the next Emperor. A generic sunburst design has been adopted 
as a temporary replacement.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 136-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Emperor Strephon and Empress Iolanthe were buried today with full state 
honors. The procession from the Hall of Nobles to the Alkhalikhoi section of 
the Imperial Park in the shadow of the Palace moved slowly and without 
incident.

Prince Lucan, Varian's younger brother, and now heir apparent to the throne, 
appeared briefly at grave side, leaving under heavy security immediately 
after the ceremony.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 137-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Following simple burial ceremonies for Grand Princess Iphegenia and Prince 
Varian, the Office of the Emperor today announced that Prince Lucan had 
formally ascended the Iridium Throne in private ceremonies in the Imperial 
Palace.

Shortly thereafter, Duke Simalr of Ushra, speaking for the Moot, charged 
that private ascension ceremonies are invalid, adding that any assumption of 
the powers of the Imperium requires the consent of the Moot.

Emperor Lucan, communicating through his seneschal, exercised the Imperial 
power to dissolve the Moot for one year. Duke Simalr of Ushra, speaking for 
the Moot, denied the legitimacy of Lucan's action in a strongly worded reply 
which was released simultaneously to the news services.

A meeting of the Moot later in the day failed to achieve a quorum. Duke 
Simalr is reported under house arrest.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                           137-1116	(GURPS)

Informed sources at the palace say that Emperor Strephon will appoint two 
new Archdukes in the coming year: Lady Isis Arepo Ilethian will be appointed 
archduchess of Ilelish, succeeding her father, the late Archduke Dulinor. 
Duke Norris Aella Alledon will be appointed the first Archduke of Deneb.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                         137-1116	(GURPS)

Prince Varian Paulo Alkhalikoi, nephew of the Emperor Strephon, announced 
today that he has decided to leave Capital on an extended vacation from the 
Imperial court.

"Life at the Imperial Court is a wondrous experience," said the prince, 
"however, I feel that I am missing an even more wondrous and varied 
experience to be had by getting away from the pressures of the palace and 
seeing more of the various societies and cultures that make up the Imperium. 
I hope to spend some time getting to know a few of the 11,000 worlds a 
little better." Varian announced no itinerary, but said he plans to try to 
travel incognito to the greatest extent possible.

The Emperor has not commented officially on his nephew's announcement, but 
indicated privately that he feels that travel cannot but help to improve 
anyone's character. Varian's brother Lucan has chosen to remain at court, 
and refused to comment on his brother's announcement, other than to wish him 
a safe journey.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                         140-1116	(GURPS)

In separate proclamations issued today, the Emperor appointed Lady Isis 
Arepo Ilethian of Dlan as Archduchess of Ilelish, and Duke Norris Aella 
Alledon of Regina as Archduke of Deneb. Formal investiture will take place 
at the palace on 001-1117. Both candidates will be present, and the Emperor 
will personally invest them with the regalia of their office, an unusual 
occurrence in view of the vast distances involved. Special task forces of 
the Imperial Navy have been dispatched to Dlan and Regina to escort the 
candidates to Capital.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                         145-1116	(GURPS)

Admiral Jori Mallory hault-Viswanath of the Imperial Navy's public relations 
branch announced today that the Navy was pursuing a number of lines of 
investigation into the explosion that killed Archduke Dulinor Astrin 
Ilethian fourteen days ago. "In cooperation with other agencies, we are 
concentrating massive resources on the investigation of the incident. We 
have recovered fragments amounting to over three-quarters of the gig (the 
largest massing over 8500 kilos, the smallest less than 200 grams) and are 
subjecting them to the most rigorous possible forensic examination. The 
gig's maintenance records have been fully examined, and every member of the 
crew of Dulinor's flagship Sargon has been interrogated. We have tracked 
down every craft that was in the near vicinity for twelve hours before and 
after the explosion. We are still not certain whether we are investigating 
an act of terrorism, a multiple homicide, or a freak accident."

Asked about the possibility that the explosion was an assassination, Admiral 
hault-Viswanath remarked that while that possibility cannot be eliminated, 
there is no direct evidence of any assassination plot. "That is one of 
several lines of investigation being actively pursued." he said, "We have 
orders from the highest level to investigate every possibility, no matter 
how remote."

Asked if remains of any of the victims of the massive explosion had been 
recovered, Admiral hault-Viswanath stated that while fragmentary remains had 
been found, none had been positively identified as those of the Archduke. 
Asked if this was unusual, other sources responded that in explosions of 
this size and power, it is unusual to find any remains at all, let alone 
anything substantial.



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               152-1116	(GURPS)

The monthly changing of the guard at the Imperial Palace took place today, 
but palace watchers say the ceremony is a little late. Imperial guard 
uniforms all look pretty much alike, especially to those unfamiliar with 
them, but a local military enthusiast whose hobby is Imperial uniforms says 
the differences are like night and day, and to her trained eyes, the Antares 
guard has been on duty for almost three weeks.

"It is fairly easy to pick out the Aslan, " says Minaro hault-Yunami, author 
of Uniforms and Equipment of the Imperial Guard, 1080-1110, " and the 
Marines are in maroon, so they stick out too. But the difference between 
Antares and Illelish is in certain details of the collar tabs and shoulder 
boards, which are pretty hard to pick out on the video screen." How does 
Minaro, who has access only to the same videos of the court as the rest of 
us ordinary citizens, know the difference?

"Every day when the Emperor enters the Long Hall on his way to the Iridium 
throne, he is preceded by an honor party of the guard. On the first day of 
the week, the honor party always wears battle dress instead of the normal 
full dress uniform. The Illelish Guard's battle dress has a black stripe 
outlining their right plastron - the Antares Guard is blank. It's a subtle 
difference, but it's there for anyone with halfway decent eyes."

What does it all mean? "It's a speculation, but I think the Ilelish Guard 
were pulled from duty so they could mourn their Archduke. It's highly 
unusual, but it's not completely unknown. The last time something like this 
happened was in the reign of Arbellatra in 632."


Jewell/Spinward Marches (1106-A777999-C)                  158-1116	(GURPS)

After months of investigation, the Office of the Judge Advocate General for 
the Imperial Navy has dismissed charges of war profiteering brought against 
Gishan Ryan Khaasira. A spokesperson for the JAG Office stated that "we have 
found no evidence to support the accusations made by certain individuals 
concerning the activities of former Lt. Khaasira during the Fifth Frontier 
War. As such, our investigation has ended and we consider the matter 
closed."

Gishan Khaasira is a former Naval intelligence officer who transferred to 
Supply after the ship on which he served, the Agidda, suffered heavy damage 
from a Zhodani attack. Khaasira then spent the remainder of the war working 
as an aide to the Quartermaster-General, Admiral Rafael Sukhamaran. It is 
because of the mysterious disappearance of several shipments of supplies 
during his tenure there that unnamed sources pointed the finger at him.

While the JAG Office has now officially cleared Lt. Khaasira of all 
wrongdoing, he has elected to resign his commission from the Navy. Khaasira 
cited the deaths of his sister during the war and of his father recently as 
the reasons for his resignation. He intends to return home and use his 
skills to rebuild his family's merchant business after years of hard times.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 200-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Unrest among the populace continues following the assassination of Strephon 
and the questionable rise to power of Emperor Lucan. Fanned by opponents 
such as Duke Simalr of Ushra, the flames of unrest have sparked rioting in 
major population centers and intense quarreling among members of the Moot.

Police and Imperial Guard troops have kept these isolated outbreaks under 
control, but their frequency and intensity are on the rise.


Vland/Vland (0307-A967A9A-F) Date: 202-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Emperor Strephon was assassinated by Archduke Dulinor of Ilelish 132-1116. 
The Central Authority issued a simple statement early today regretting the 
Emperor's death, but calling on all citizens to remain calm and remember his 
passing with dignity.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               212-1116	(GURPS)

In-system space ship traffic was snarled today when the arrival of an 
unexpected Naval courier vessel was vectored to Capital ahead of all other 
incoming vessels, causing considerable dislocation in orbital traffic 
control.

A spokesman for System Port Authority refused comment other than to state 
that the vessel had the highest military priority, and its commander 
insisted on being cleared for approach immediately. TNS reporters managed to 
locate the shift supervisor at Capi tal Far Orbit Control, who was somewhat 
more talkative on receiving assurances of anonymity.

"The transponder indicated that it was an Imperial Navy vessel," the 
supervisor said, but when the neutrino signature analysis came through, I 
recognized it as an Imperiallines TI-class. Now, a Tango Ida with a Navy 
squawker, is a little unusual. I've wor ked this duty eight years, and I've 
only seen that twice...we have a lot of TI-class ships in and out of system, 
but normally they have civilian transponders. This one demanded clearance 
straight through to the Naval Base, and we had to give it to them on account 
of the transponder priority code, even though it meant I had to spend the 
next three hours unsnarling everything." When asked what he thought it all 
meant, the supervisor winked at this reporter, and said: "Somebody had 
something they wanted to g et dirtside real fast, and they couldn't wait for 
the Xboat. Maybe Prince Lucan ordered some extra Tokay escenzia for one of 
his little parties."



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               215-1116	(GURPS)

Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian will be honored at a memorial service to be 
held in the Hall of Nobles beneath the Moot Spire on 230-1116. Because 
Dulinor's body has still not been found, mourners may view a holographic 
representaion of the Archduke, whi ch will lie in state in the Hall for 10 
days prior to the ceremony.

Emperor Strephon will deliver the main eulogy. The memorial service itself 
will incorporate aspects of the Dlani Virasan religion, but will not be a 
Virasan funeral service, as that will be held on Dlan, Dulinor's homeworld. 
Although not a follower of the Virasan faith, Dulinor was said to be deeply 
interested in its tenets, which state (among other things) that true 
believers must die a non-violent death on Dlan to attain true enlightenment.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 217-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

In the shadows of the Imperial Palace, a particularly violent clash between 
police and rioters has rocked the capital. For nearly three hours the 
skirmishes continued, as demonstrating citizens forced their way toward the 
palace against strict orders of the authorities.

Nonlethal means were finally used to disperse the crowd, but not until forty 
citizens and at least three riot policemen were killed.

A spokesman for Emperor Lucan has stated that the Emperor, though aware of 
the problem, was not concerned and did not at any time leave the palace for 
his own safety.



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               230-1116	(GURPS)

A memorial service for Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian was held in the Hall 
of Nobles beneath the Moot Spire today. Emperor Strephon, his wife Iolanthe, 
his daughter Grand Princess Ciencia Iphegenia, and the emperor's nephew 
Prince Lucan were present. The Emperor delivered the eulogy, of which the 
following are selected excerpts:

Dulinor was my friend. And Dulinor was a madman.

Harsh words? No. Rather, a tribute.

Great spirits are not normal, they are abnormal. In their ceaseless questing 
for a world which has not yet been but which they seek to bring about they 
show their alienation from the world around them. These aliens are those 
whom we call leaders, visionar ies, prophets, poets, artists - madmen. 
Dulinor was one of them, and he stood at their head.

What does it take to see the universe as it is and say it is not enough? To 
say that it can be another way that it has never been before? These are not 
the thoughts of a contented man, one who is well-adjusted to the world as he 
finds it. Well-adjusted is a compliment we throw around easily, but it is 
not a compliment that applies to a leader. Because leaders are never 
well-adjusted; they are always discontent, they always seek a universe that 
does not exist, and they strive to make that universe a reality. This 
striving is the opposite of being well-adjusted, it is madness.

In all the years I knew him, Dulinor never ceased striving, and I loved him 
for it.

Talent, we are reminded by the ancient philosopher, is the capacity for 
opposites. If so, then Dulinor was perhaps the most talented of us all. 
Cloaked in contradictions, like the black garb he wore, imposed upon him by 
a faith he did not embrace, he serv ed and defied, agreed and challenged. He 
was unpopular, and indispensable. He went to his death believing in the 
course of his life, and not caring if others understood. His life and death 
are perhaps a warning to those of talent who would follow after him, that 
the candle that burns brightest burns briefest. Let all talented madmen 
remember that the life of service comes at great cost, but let them never 
shrink from it.

Dulinor died in the blackness that he wore in life, and as in that life, 
never being fully of it, but also not rejecting it.

We will not see his like again.

Roget/Spinward Marches                  231-1116	(GURPS)

Mercenary and former member of an elite Darrian unit Htarlehtoir was today 
invested as ko (clan chief) of the Feiftiusaea Clan, one of four which 
jointly control Roget.

This is an unusual clan in that it has both Aslan and human prides; 
Htarlehtoir is the first human to act as ko for any of the four clans.


Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G)                  244-1116	(GURPS)

Sector Admiral Hutara Astrin Ilethian, brother of the late Archduke Dulinor 
of Ilelish, has announced that he is resigning his commission, effective 
immediately. In a short press release read by the admiral's newly-appointed 
aide, Lieutenant Tadashi Conacht hault-Musillo, the admiral stated that he 
is resigning in order to devote his full attention to the management of the 
family lands and business interests now that his niece has been appointed 
Archduchess in her father's place.

The admiral stated that his niece would now be busy with government duties, 
and would no longer be able to devote the time necessary to keep the various 
Ilethian family interests running properly.

Asked why the admiral had not made the announcement himself, the lieutenant 
stated that the admiral has been ill the last few days, and while he was 
well on his way to recovery, his doctors felt the added strain of a public 
appearance might delay his recovery.


Sacnoth/Spinward Marches                  244-1116	(GURPS)

The University of Sacnoth today launched an appeal for funds to purchase 
rare Aslan artifacts. Professor Elke Ragnarsdottir, leading the appeal, 
said: "Unfortunately, neither the University nor the government are willing 
to provide funding, so we must appeal directly to the public."

She continued, "These pieces are important because they may prove that Aslan 
ranged as far coreward as Mithril, centuries before they were thought to 
have reached the Marches. This is a golden opportunity to learn more about 
them, but they need to be studied scientifically, and the best chance of 
that is for the University to acquire them."

The artifacts were found on Mithril in 1106, and have since been in the 
hands of a private collector, who is now selling them to raise money for 
other projects.

Other bidders are likely to include the Darrian government and Aslan 
traders. The Darrian Embassy declined to comment on why their government 
might want to buy the pieces.

If she fails to acquire the pieces, Professor Ragnarsdottir plans to use 
whatever money is raised to mount an expedition to Mithril in the hopes of 
discovering more items at the original site.

Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G) Date: 245-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The Archduke's official state visit to Capital ended abruptly with his 
surprise return to Dlan and his immediate call for a full-media press 
conference on the steps of the palace for later in the day.

After appearing wearing an elaborately fashioned crown, the Archduke began 
his statement with a list of wrongs and abuses perpetrated by Emperor 
Strephon. He concluded with the startling statement: "The Emperor is dead! I 
have dedicated my life to the people of the Imperium. I claim the Iridium 
Throne by right of assassination, and shall rule this Imperium as Emperor 
Dulinor."

The stunned public then listened as the Emperor called for a complete 
mobilization to seize all of the Imperium for his sacred cause. He made a 
public and official request to Admiral Hutara, his brother, for the Ilelish 
Fleet to side with him in his sacred struggle to gain his rightfully secured 
place on the throne.

The Emperor Dulinor retired to his chamber without answering questions. A 
subsequent statement detailing the new Emperor's trip to Capital and the 
assassination of Strephon on the Iridium Throne itself. The statement 
concluded with an account of Dulinor's ascension of the Throne to the well- 
wishing cheers of millions of Capital's citizenry, followed by a selection 
of patriotic video cassettes.

Celebrations have been organized on Dlan and throughout the sector as the 
populace is encouraged to honor the beginning of new age for the Imperium 
and Ilelish sector.


Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G)                  245-1116	(GURPS)

Puzzled citizens of Dlan who wondered why every entertainment channel was 
airing re-runs during prime-time last night now have an answer. An unknown 
agency reserved two hours of air time last night and cancelled a week or so 
ago, without telling anyone what the reservation was for.

The Dlan Minister of Communication's office had no formal comment, but a 
high official in that office stated "Somebody's out several mega-credits. 
They reserved the time almost a year ago, and paid by a bank draft from a 
numbered account, then last wee k we got a message that cancelled the 
reservation and told us to run whatever we wanted. It was too late to try to 
sell the time elsewhere, of course, so we let individual regional managers 
decide."

Speculation is rampant in the local entertainment industry, and guesses 
range from a new holofilm technique that didn't pan out to a massive (and 
very costly) practical joke. One rumor was a news flash of great importance, 
but no one can agree on what that might have been.

Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G) Date: 248-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Sector Admiral Hutara and his fleet officers made an official announcement 
that the Ilelish Fleet has declared for Dulinor. In a brief but ancient 
ceremony, Hutara offered his dagger to Dulinor, who solemnly accepted, and 
then briefly embraced his brother.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  262-1116	(GURPS)

After months of intensive investigation, the Imperial board of inquiry into 
the explosion of Archduke Dulinor's personal gig on 131-1116 is unable to 
physically confirm that Dulinor died in the explosion, or that he was even 
aboard the gig when it was destroyed. Officially, he is still listed as 
"missing, presumed dead." They have been able to confirm that the explosion 
was no accident. So far, this has been their only conclusion.

"We have testimony from Sargon's crew that the archduke and his staff 
boarded the gig," said an unnamed source close to the investigation, "but we 
haven't been able to find a trace of remains - well, not his remains, 
anyway." According to testim ony of several of the crew, Dulinor's flagship, 
the cruiser Sargon, launched the gig with the normal crew of two plus a port 
guide from customs, Archduke Dulinor and fourteen members of his personal 
staff, and three bodyguards plus assorted baggage for the party. The 
explosion was so powerful that not a single complete body has been 
recovered, although DNA and other evidence has accounted for sixteen of the 
nineteen passengers.

"The pattern of the wreckage indicated three separate, simultaneous 
explosions, calculated to pulverize the entire passenger compartment," the 
unnamed source continued. "The explosions all originated in the compartments 
where baggage would ordinarily b e stored." Dulinor's own standing orders, 
however, provide for constant supervision of the loading process by his 
bodyguards, and further require that the security staff who guard and 
oversee loading of the gig must accompany it when it departs. If these 
requirements were followed, it would seem that at least one of the 
perpetrators was killed along with the intended victim.

The unnamed source emphasized that investigators are still not convinced 
that Dulinor was the target of the explosion, although "At this point . . . 
that's the way to bet."



Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G)                  265-1116	(GURPS)

What started as a minor protest rally at the government center on Dlan 
escalated into a major civil confrontation between police and local 
citizens. A large crowd protesting what they called the Imperial Navy's 
cover-up of events surrounding Archduke Dulinor's death assembled without a 
permit and became hostile when ordered to disperse.

More than 600 rioters ransacked offices of the Imperial Navy, the Imperial 
Interstellar Scout Service and the Office of Calendar Compliance, all 
located in the downtown Imperial office building. Local police and 
constabulary forces dispersed the crowds within a few minutes, using 
non-lethal crowd-control devices. Sixteen people, none of them police, were 
treated and released at local medical centers.

The destruction apparently was haphazard. The Naval office, which suffered 
the heaviest damage, was primarily a public-relations and recruiting center. 
At the time of the riots, only civilian employees were present.


Amdani/Daibei (2034-A727A88-E) Date: 265-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Heightened high-level conferences and military activity in the area have 
done nothing to quell rumors that Core sector is in civil unrest. Statements 
from the nobility have been universally, "No comment."

As of this date, all naval personnel have been put on special alert, all 
shore leaves have been canceled, and a complete media blackout of naval 
exercises has been imposed. The Admiralty has no comment.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  270-1116	(GURPS)

Prince Lucan Alkhalikoi, nephew of the Emperor Strephon, announced today 
that he will imitate his brother Varian and take an extended tour of the 
Imperium.

"My brother and I often discussed taking a grand tour of the Imperium 
together," said the prince, "but we could never agree on the specifics, and 
when he departed earlier this year on his own, I felt compelled to remain at 
Capital for personal reasons. I have recently decided however, that I, too, 
must become more familiar with the Imperium, although I intend to do it in a 
different way than my brother."

Prince Lucan went on to say that he has not yet completed plans for his 
trip, and that his itinerary remains open. He did confirm that he will delay 
his departure until after the archducal investiture ceremony on 000-1117, so 
that he may attend on beha lf of his branch of the Imperial family.

The Emperor had no official comment on his nephew's decision, but sources at 
the palace indicate he approves.




Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  282-1116	(GURPS)

Commo Tech First Class Gani Riisha is having trouble getting his possessions 
back from the Imperial Navy. Gani Riisha was one of the crewmembers of 
Archduke Dulinor's flagship Sargon, and his possessions are, for some 
reason, relevant to the invest igation into the explosion that killed the 
Archduke and several others on 131-1116.

"They questioned me quite intensively," Riisha said, "because I was on duty 
on the bridge when the gig blew up. I expected them to want my signal logs 
and everything official, but why do they need my uniforms and my personal 
kit? They released me from cus tody after a few days, and they've been very 
generous in supplying me with replacement clothing and such, but there are a 
number of items of a personal nature I'd like to get back. They can't even 
tell me when I can expect to see them."

Gani is not alone. While most of Sargon's crew members (and their 
possessions) have been released from custody, the Imperial Navy still 
retains the flagship itself, some of the crew's personal gear, and three 
members of the crew itself under tight security.

The Imperial Navy Public Relations Office refuses to comment, other than to 
say that the personnel and items are necessary to the ongoing investigation, 
and that the crewmembers are not suspects at this time.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  289-1116	(GURPS)

The Imperial Navy has released several transcripts relating to the death of 
Archduke Dulinor in an explosion on 131-1116. The transcripts describe 
communications between the gig and inner-system traffic control, but also 
include selections from the gig 's flight-data recorder.

The gig's last response to traffic control was at 13:22:34-131-1116, when 
the gig's pilot acknowledged and carried out an instruction to alter course. 
A short time later (13:39:48-131-1116), traffic control issued a course 
correction instruction, but the gig did not acknowledge. The gig's 
navigational transponder ceased broadcasting at 13:41:06-131-1116, which is 
within seconds of the time the gig's flight-data recorder lost contact with 
all instruments, and approximately the time several other ships in the area 
reported a bright flash from the gig's coordinates.

All in all, the data released confirms the Navy's contention that several 
near simultaneous explosions destroyed the gig, killing all aboard 
instantly. When asked about the gig's cockpit voice recorder, Navy spokesmen 
responded that the instrument was severely damaged in the blast, and that it 
was still undergoing reconstructive analysis.



Quiru/Lunion (2321)                  289-1116	(GURPS)

The gas-giant planet Plistii, in the Lunion subsector of the Spinward 
Marches, underwent a violent shudder beginning on 341-1115, causing some 
small concern for the inhabitants of Quiru, one of Plistii's satellites 
(Quiru/Lunion 2321). A panic among the world's 3,200 citizens was averted by 
quick-thinking MainLines Shipping officials, who were able to gain a few 
hours advance notice of the disturbance and stage an evacuation drill while 
the event took place.

"We got everybody in one place, within sight of the emergency evacuation 
vessels, and then told them what was going on," said a company spokesman. 
"We gave everybody the day off with pay, and started playing dance music and 
serving food. It turned into a holiday, and had things turned sour w e could 
have had everybody on the evac ships and out of there in a couple of hours."

Details are still sparse, but the event appears to have been either a 
massive storm front in the gas giant, or else some kind of "gasquake" deep 
in the giant's liquid-hydrogen core. Company officials are monitoring the 
gas giant for further events, but so far nothing other than a few minor 
aftershocks has been detected.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  292-1116	(GURPS)

TNS sources learned today that Imperial Navy intelligence operatives may 
have foiled a plot to assassinate Lady Isis Arepo Illethian. Confidential 
sources suggest that a series of arrests on Capital and elsewhere in the 
sector were a result of a long-term undercover operation combating terrorist 
activity in Core sector. According to the sources, the purpose of the 
assassination was to galvanize anti-Imperial feelings in the Domain of 
Ilelish and spark a revolt there by blaming the assassination on Emperor 
Strephon.

A spokesman for the Imperial Navy refused to comment on TNS reports about a 
plot, and would neither confirm nor deny the existence of any undercover 
operations in Core sector or elsewhere. The spokesman did state that both 
Lady Isis and Archduke Norris were traveling to Capital under a Naval 
escort, and that their precise schedules and itineraries were classified.


Amdani/Daibei (2034-A727A88-E) Date: 309-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Official announcement of Emperor Strephon's assassination has reached the 
sector. The nobility has also released a statement encouraging the populace 
to have faith in the systematic and peaceful shift of power to Strephon's 
heir, Duke Varian.

Subsequent messages from Core sector have indicated that Varian was killed 
in combat in and around the palace area. Prince Lucan is apparently the new 
Emperor of the Imperium.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 310-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Lucan announced that unrest in Core sector has been dealt with successfully. 
All citizens are encouraged to have faith in the new Emperor, despite 
unsubstantiated rival claims to the throne.

Emperor Lucan also announced that the Core Fleet is on the move towards Dlan 
to hunt down the criminal Dulinor. His actions warrant death, and he will 
certainly be brought to justice.


Terra/Solomani Rim (0207-A867A69-F) Date: 313-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

In an unexpected move, much of the Imperial Rim Fleet has been concentrated 
and many reservists have been placed on alert. No substantial explanation 
has been forthcoming.

General Yoshtiru of the Terran Home Guard has called for a high level 
command conference of the commanders of all troops stationed on Terra.


Terra/Solomani Rim (0207-A867A69-F) Date: 322-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Military installations in Asia, Africa, and North America have been closed 
to civilians. All active duty personnel worldwide have been recalled from 
leave or furlough.

An unofficial source stated that large shipments of materials have been 
arriving at these closed installations. The exact nature of the shipments is 
unknown, and no official Home Guard spokesman will comment on the issue.


Rhylanor/Spinward Marches                   324-1116	(GURPS)

Subsector law enforcement agencies and the general public were today warned 
by the Imperial Navy to be on the lookout for Miguel Casimir, also known as 
Casimir Clarke or Miguel Clarke, who is wanted for a variety of crimes 
including impersonating an Imperial officer, theft of Imperial property, 
piracy and murder.

Commander Miles Cullan of the Imperial Navy said, "Casimir -- or whatever 
name he is now using -- recently escaped from a maximum security prison at a 
classified location, killing two guards in the process. We believe that he 
will attempt to dupe loyal ci tizens into hiding him by claiming to be the 
victim of a government cover-up. Do not be deceived, this man is a vicious 
animal. "

Commander Cullan explained that because of the charges of piracy, the Navy 
has been asked to lead the investigation. He went on to say that the 
fugitive has escaped before, and on that occasion claimed to be a member of 
an Imperial Research Station, and t hat Imperial and megacorporate interests 
were pursuing him to suppress a radical new power generation technology he 
had developed after examination of Ancient artifacts. "Casimir may use this 
story again," said Cullan, "and let's be completely clear: There is 
absolutely no truth in it."

Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 330-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The ducal household announced that Duke Norris of Regina will travel to 
Rhylanor to meet with representatives from several key worlds in the 
Spinward Marches and Deneb sectors. The conference is scheduled to cover 
"economic matters", a general term used when the agenda has not been made 
public. The exact nature of the meeting has not been disclosed.

In related matters, a rumor that the Duke has recently received a private 
communication from Emperor Strephon has not been confirmed by official 
sources.


Romarr/Spinward Marches                   331-1116		(GURPS)

The ruling council of Romarr today authorized Spinward Spice & Spirits, LIC, 
to export 250 tons of dust-spice without paying the normal duties and 
tariffs.

This measure, which will allow SSS to undersell its competitors, is likely 
to save the troubled company from bankruptcy.

A company representative, Captain Mark Spencer, denied charges of corruption 
or nepotism, stating the a business case for deferred payment of duty had 
been presented to the Council and accepted by them.

When asked whether he thought the shipments were at risk from ihatei 
marauders, Captain Spencer replied that SSS would be hiring additional 
security staff.


Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 340-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The ducal household announced that Duke Norris was elevated to the rank of 
Archduke of the Domain of Deneb by the hand of Emperor Strephon on 091-1116 
in recognition of his activities in the late Fifth Frontier War.

The Duke plans a trip to Capital to personally accept the Emperor's 
blessing.


Nusku/Sol                  351-1116				(GURPS)

At the request of the Marquis of Nusku, the planetary Duma today ordered 
military protection for an archaeological dig on New Kodiak Island. 
Civilians with no connection with the scientific team have been barred from 
approaching or la nding on the island.


Duma spokesman Ian Direma stated that the Marquis had gathered information 
suggesting that the dig site was the focus of a conspiracy to loot 
archaeological relics. When pressed for details, Direma referred the 
journalists conducting the interview to Marquis Yushchenko's office. The 
Marquis could not be reached for comment.

New Kodiak Island is known to have been the location of a minor command 
center for Terran forces during the Interstellar Wars period. The Reinhardt 
Foundation has been excavating the site for three years, thus far without 
any results of interest to the general public.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  354-1116		(GURPS)

The ships carrying Lady Isis Arepo Illethian and Duke Norris of Regina 
arrived in system today. TNS has learned that the fleets, which merged at 
some unspecified point along their respective paths, actually arrived in 
Core sector some time ago, and hav e spent the intervening period in 
security isolation at an unspecified location.

A press conference is scheduled for next week, shortly before the ceremonies 
that will confirm Lady Isis as Archduchess of Ilelish and Duke Norris as 
Archduke of Deneb.



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  356-1116		(GURPS)

The Imperial Navy has issued a report on its investigation of Archduke 
Dulinor's death, ending several months of speculation. The report concludes 
that Dulinor was killed on 131-1116 when the gig on which he was a passenger 
vanished in a massive explos ion. The report further states that, in the 
opinion of the investigators, the explosion was intentional, and represents 
an act of assassination by a party or parties unknown.

Investigators could not find any remains, but DNA extracted from tissues 
recovered from the wreckage was conclusively identified as being Dulinor's. 
The report also concludes that one or more of Dulinor's assassins also 
perished in the explosion, but i s unable to reach any conclusion on whether 
this was a deliberate act of suicide.

Unofficial sources close to the investigation state that there was 
considerable controversy among investigators as to whether the DNA finally 
confirmed as Dulinor's came from his body or from medical stockpiles carried 
as part of his luggage (many nobl es travel with medical supplies cloned and 
cultured from their own tissues, but it is not known for certain whether 
Dulinor followed this practice).

The complete text of the report was delivered to the Emperor yesterday, and 
will be released to the press after a copy has been delivered to Lady Isis, 
the archduke's daughter and heir.




Capital/Core                  357-1116			(GURPS)

Informed sources within the Imperial Ministry of Justice today confirmed 
that the formal search for the assassin or assassins of Archduke Dulinor 
will be conducted by a special team formed from members of the Imperial 
Navy, the Scout S ervice, and the Ministry of Justice, among others.

No details as to membership were made available, but the sources indicated 
that the team will have nearly unprecedented investigative powers and will 
consist of top investigators from several agencies other than those named 
above.

The team will report directly to the Emperor, and has already begun 
operations based on the Imperial Navy's investigation into the explosion of 
131-1116, which killed the Archduke and the crew of his personal gig.


Aristotle/Solomani Rim (1740-A269985-E)                  360-1116		(GURPS)

The Confederation Navy today announced the conclusion of their quadrennial 
SWIFT RETRIBUTION XXIV readiness exercise. "Civilian traffic in the Gemini 
Subsector may safely return to normal operations," said Commissioner Ignacy 
Aszykkrol , public affairs spokesman for Doan Naval Base. "We are aware of 
the inconvenience these maneuvers cause," he continued, "but the price of 
freedom is eternal vigilance." Commissioner Aszykkrol refused to comment on 
the nature of the exercise or the elemen ts involved, saying only that the 
event had been "entirely satisfactory, good training and a complete 
success."

Later, Lloyd's of London and the Traveller's Aid Society issued a joint 
bulletin rescinding the subsector-wide Amber travel advisory posted for 
Gemini Subsector on 060-1116.


Capital/Core                  364-1116			(GURPS)

Despite the Imperial Navy's conclusions to the contrary, a small number of 
people believe that Archduke Dulinor is still alive. Almost from the start, 
according to sources in the Ministry of Justice, reports of the Archduke's 
survival were received, although the vast majority of them could be 
dismissed by investigators after minimal investigation

An anonymous source reveals that almost a thousand separate reports of 
"Dulinor sightings" were filed with the Imperial Navy, and that more than 
two dozen investigators were assigned to follow them up. Every report was 
found to be without factual basis , but this has not prevented the growth of 
persistent rumors that Dulinor either survived the explosion of Sargon's gig 
or was never aboard the vessel to begin with.

"A lot of people see someone they think resembles the late Archduke," our 
source said, "and let their imaginations run away with them." Evidently, 
many of the "sightings" occurred almost simultaneously in locations 
separated by several parsecs. Even the most outrageous reports were 
completely investigated, our source assured us, and all of them proved to be 
". . . a waste of time and resources."



Lanth/Spinward Marches (1719-A879533-B)                  365-1116	(GURPS)

An Imperial board of inquiry has declared the 10,000-dton passenger liner 
S.S. Sundance lost with all hands. The Sundance, one of Al Morai's Sunfarer 
class of luxury express liners, has been missing since she fail ed to make 
her scheduled planetfall at Lanth on 118-1114, en route from Regina to Mora. 
She was carrying 3,084 passengers (2,054 in cold sleep), 577 crew, and 419 
dtons of cargo when she left Ghandi/Spinward Marches (1815-B211455-A) on 
110-1114. The loss is officially listed as "cause unknown; presumed 
misadventure."

This ruling paves the way for the settlement of claims brought by Sundance's 
shippers and passengers' next of kin. Al Morai officials steadfastly deny 
allegations of improper maintenance or use of unrefined fuel as possible 
explanations for the ship's disappearence, citing their excellent 
operational record and impeccable safety rating from the Imperial Grand 
Survey.


Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

Speaking on condition that he not be quoted, a retired officer of the 
Imperial Interstellar Scout Service confirms that there may be a kernel of 
truth behind Colonel Ruys de Bessier's allegations that Imperial POWs are 
still within the Zhodani Consulate but that they are there of their own 
volition.

"I won't even begin to summarize the reasons, but in almost every war a 
certain number of people perform what might be considered questionable acts 
and are hesitant about returning home . . . some of them take advantage of 
the chaos of war to assume new identities, others simply take a liking to 
their new home and decide not to leave." The officer stopped short of saying 
any Imperials were guilty of treason, but offered the following: "Imperial 
intelligence knows that a number of serving members of the Imperial military 
during the Fifth Frontier War were Zho sympathizers. I think that is pretty 
much what we have here."

The officer concluded: "It doesn't make sense anyway . . . why would the 
Zhos keep POWs this long after the war? You can spin all sorts of crackpot 
conspiracy/espionage scenarios, but most of these are fodder for cheap 
action/adventure holos."



Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

Former Imperial Army Intelligence officer Colonel Ruys de Bessier alleged 
today that the Zhodani Consulate continues to hold POW's captured during the 
Fourth and Fifth Frontier Wars. Colonel de Bessier recently resigned from 
the Imperi al Army citing "matters of conscience."

During a hastily-organized press conference today, Colonel de Bessier 
presented what he described as "overwhelming evidence that many of our 
comrades continue to languish in Zhodani prisons. This is a travesty of 
civilized behavior, and I, for one , refuse to keep silent any longer."

Colonel de Bessier maintains that from 2,000 to as many as 10,000 Imperial 
personnel are held at a number of locations within the Zhodani Consulate, 
and that seven of these locations have been "positively identified." Colonel 
de Bessier refused to disclose by what means these identifications were 
made.

Imperial Military sources declined to comment on these allegations.

A spokesperson for the Zhodani Consulate described the allegations as 
"laughable and lamentable" and "yet another impediment to lasting peace" but 
refused further comment.


Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

General Mueni Arap Rutan, commanding officer of the Imperial Guard, 
announced the appointment of Colonel Murnas De&#8217;Angelo as commander of the 
Ilelish Regiment of the Imperial Guard. The appointment of Colonel 
De&#8217;Angelo, former executive officer of the Antares Regiment of the Imperial 
Guard, finally fills the vacancy created with the retirement of Colonel 
Hiroshi Enera earlier this year. The regiment spent the intervening time 
under the personal command of General Rutan.

There remain three other vacancies in the Ilelish Regiment, also created by 
unexpected retirements earlier in the year, but neither General Rutan nor 
Colonel De&#8217;Angelo would comment on how soon those positions would be filled.


Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

The Imperial Navy has finally returned the personal possessions it impounded 
from Commo Tech First Class Gani Riishao earlier this year. Riisha was on 
duty on Sargon's bridge on 131-1116, when the gig containing Archduke 
Dulinor exploded, killing all aboard.

Gani received no explanation from the Navy, other than a short letter 
apologizing for any inconvenience he may have suffered, and inventorying his 
possessions.

"Nothing seems to be missing," Gani said, "But they still haven't told me 
why the kept everything for so long. I'm more than a little curious."



Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

In a short press release issued today, Prince Lucan, nephew of Emperor 
Strephon, announced that he has changed his mind about embarking on a tour 
of the Imperium.

"My application to the Imperial Naval Academy has been accepted," said the 
prince, "and I will serve a term as an officer upon my graduation." Lucan 
explained that he had been too hasty in announcing his intention to embark 
on a grand tour, and decided , after considerable thought, that he did not 
want to imitate his brother Varian too closely. "I have always been taught 
that each of us must chart his own course." Lucan said, "and I finally 
concluded that I had been too hasty in my earlier decision."

Emperor Strephon had no comment on his nephew's decision, except to state 
that he would support Lucan's decision.


Antares/Antares                  365-1116			(GURPS)

In a joint press conference at the archducal station of Cerise, Archduke 
Brzk and Adkhar Shirushi, head of the sector's Church of the Stellar 
Divinity, announced that the Star of Jyestha will be sent on tour throughout 
the Imperium. Th e Star is a religious artifact believed to have belonged to 
Jyestha Yerubid, the founder of the Church during the days of the First 
Imperium. As there are many autonomous churches of this faith throughout the 
Imperium, this gesture on the part of the Anta rean church is of 
considerable importance.

An itinerary and timetable for the Star's journey has yet to be completed, 
but both Archduke Brzk and Shirushi agreed that it would be present on 
Capital in time for the festivities surrounding the emperor's Golden 
Jubilee.


Jesedipere/Spinward Marches                  365-1116	(GURPS)

A cell of the anti-Vargr group Superioriti has sprung up on this backwater 
world of the Spinward Marches. For the past ten years, Jesedipere has been 
home to an increasing number of Vargr refugees fleeing the depredations of 
the Kforuz eng corsair band. Because of the world's lack of a central 
government, clashes between its original human inhabitants and the Vargr 
newcomers are common. The rise of Superioriti will only exacerbate the 
situation.

The commander of the local Scout base, Nanda Theiss, has attempted to act as 
a mediator between the groups, but to little avail. She stated that "the 
situation is worsening and I fully expect larger-scale violence to erupt if 
something is not done."




_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:51:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:51:06 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:35PM -0400
References: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423204938.A10385@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:35PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless 
> they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which 
> case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.

Interesting.  One of my favourite treats is apricot snuff (the nasal
sort, natuerlich).  Oddly enough, it has no aroma indoors, but if one
steps outside it's really quite powerful, as though one has crammed a
pair of apricots up one's nose, one in each nostril.  Really quite
incredible how something can have no smell and an amazingly powerful
smell, depending simply on the surroundings.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a
reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating
the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for
independence.         --Charles A. Beard (1874-1948), U.S. historian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/23/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you
> > can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes
> > about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people
> > in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek
> > across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be
> > more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a
> > plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful
> > smell to the unwashed.
> 
> An excellent point.  Which is why some hunters use MOPP gear to hide their
> own scent.  I was always partial to Shaklee's Basic-H.  One of those
> biodegradable soaps that proto-enviornmentalists (like my parents) used in
> the late '70.  I don't even know if it's made anymore.  But it had no scent.
> I carefully hoarded my supply for years.

I'm so glad I have all you people to tell me these things.  They are NOT
things I'd ever want to find out on my own!

(I loathe getting dirty and am famous for the line, "if you expect me to
have sex with you we'd better be sleeping someplace with indoor
plumbing.")

I'd probably smell from miles away to the unwashed.  I never use anything
but Shiseido "Taiyou no Megumi" liquid body soap, which has orange, lemon
and yuzu extract in it and has quite a strong citrus smell.  The fruit
acids are good for my oily skin, and it wakes me up in the morning <G> but
no one's ever complained about it because it has no synthetic perfumes in
it.  The same goes for my shampoo, which has camellia oil in it and is the
thing that enables me and many other women to keep their long, straight
hair long and straight and shiny.

> I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
> more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
withstanding!

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:11:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:11:16 2002
Subject: Field Life (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC62145.B5492FFB@premier.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> on 4/23/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> >
> > ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you
> > can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes
> > about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people
> > in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek
> > across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be
> > more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a
> > plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful
> > smell to the unwashed.

For shorter field exercises (too short to become accustomed to field
funk), I found that Deep Woods Off (r) insect repellent was useful in
masking said field funk (when sprayed liberally on both self and
uniforms).  Of course, DWO (r) (even the so-called "non-scented"
variety) would no doubt be easily smelled by someone who _had_ become
accustomed to field funk (since acclimation to natural odors is often
accompanied by sensitization to artificial odors).  Yet another reason
why being a REMF in the field is unusually hazardous....

<<snip>>
> 
> I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
> more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

Hmmm, let's see.  The light from a cigarette lighter can be seen from
way-far away, the smell can be detected from way-far away (downwind,
anyway), the sound of a metal cigarette lighter snapping open or shut
carries for several hundred meters in quiet conditions and the increased
heat created by taking a drag off a cigarette makes the whole head glow
like a lantern when viewed through night-vision devices.

All we need to add are taste and touch for a five-senses symphony of
detection. ;-)

And all this is at TL-7/8 (for the increased sensitivity of the Mk I
Human Sensor Array, it's TL-0).  Imagine how easily a smoker can be
spotted at TL-12+.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8EB6FA1.5837F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 6:05 PM, James Ramsay at quakers_united@yahoo.com.au wrote:

> QUOTE
> The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
> civilians.  It has little or no military application,
> contrary to popular mythos.
> END QUOTE
>=20
> True. But......
>=20
> They don't like it up 'em mister mainwaring, they
> don't like it up 'em ;)
>=20
> James

Which reminded me of Robert Service and this little ditty:

When first I left Blighty they gave me a bay'nit
And told me it 'ad to be smothered wiv gore;
But blimey! I 'aven't been able to stain it,
So far as I've gone wiv the vintage of war.
For ain't it a fraud! when a Boche and yours truly
Gits into a mix in the grit and the grime,
'E jerks up 'is 'ands wiv a yell and 'e's duly
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

=A0=A0=A0Left, right, Hans and Fritz!
=A0=A0=A0Goose step, keep up yer mits!
=A0=A0=A0Oh my, Ain't it a shyme!
=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

At toasting a biscuit me bay'nit's a dandy;
I've used it to open a bully beef can;
For pokin' the fire it comes in werry 'andy;
For any old thing but for stickin' a man.
'Ow often I've said: "'Ere, I'm goin' to press you
Into a 'Un till you're seasoned for prime,"
And fiercely I rushes to do it, but bless you!
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

=A0=A0=A0Lor, yus; DON'T they look glad?
=A0=A0=A0Right O! 'Owl Kamerad!
=A0=A0=A0Oh my, always the syme!
=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

I'm 'untin' for someone to christen me bay'nit,
Some nice juicy Chewton wot's fightin' in France;
I'm fairly down-'earted -- 'ow CAN yer explain it?
I keeps gettin' prisoners every chance.
As soon as they sees me they ups and surrenders,
Extended like monkeys wot's tryin' to climb;
And I uses me bay'nit -- to slit their suspenders --
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

=A0=A0=A0Four 'Uns; lor, wot a bag!
=A0=A0=A0'Ere, Fritz, sample a fag!
=A0=A0=A0Oh my, ain't it a gyme!
=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEODMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEODMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <548ccucmeghot0o03arn2ncsi1vctsa0qf@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 21:06:30 -0400, "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> wrote:

>Whether intentional or not, it still fits the textbook definition of a =
ponzi
>scheme. And a bad idea from the start. The fact that it got bigger and
>messier just follows as the night the day. Putting money away in
>interest-bearing accounts would be even worse. The best thing we could =
do is
>end the program, encourage retirement savings, roll the cost of phasing =
it
>out into the general fund and be done with it. While we're at it, phase =
out
>the rest of the federal retirement system and send it all private. At =
least
>if the politicians and bureaucrats had their cookies in the jar with =
ours
>they might be more apt to keep an eye on the Enrons and Arthur-Andersens=
 out
>there, instead of being in bed with them.

To their credit, at least some of the US politicians have recognized
these arguments and their electoral popularity quite some time ago.
At first, it was just the laws which permitted the creation of tax
deferred retirement accounts (known as Individual Retirement Accounts,
IRAs), which not only allowed, but encouraged a sensible wage earner
to plan for his own retirement.

And, before we get too far into US tax and social debate, I'll leave
further discussion aside.

ObTrav:  Is it any wonder that this isn't a topic discussed in regard
to Law Levels or Government type.  This is almost as sensitive a topic
as Theocracies or Dictatorships.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:22:18 2002
Subject: Field Life (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
In-Reply-To: <3CC62145.B5492FFB@premier.net>
Message-ID: <B8EB727B.58385%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/23/02 8:06 PM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:

> 
> And all this is at TL-7/8 (for the increased sensitivity of the Mk I
> Human Sensor Array, it's TL-0).  Imagine how easily a smoker can be
> spotted at TL-12+.

If a high tech sensor picked up trace elements from tobacco, it's gurantees
that sophs are about (The US government's attempts to get dogs to smoke
notwithstanding).
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:26:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:26:48 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
References: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org> <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20020423183217.00ac19d8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC62532.4060905@yarranet.net.au>

Jimmy Simpson wrote:

> At 06:59 PM 4/23/2002 +0100, Brian Caball wrote:
> 
>> On Tuesday 23 April 2002 17:04, William Lane wrote:
>> > I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 
>> (in fact
>> > i try to pretend it never happened.)
>>
>>
>> I think we all did that ;->

If you wanted to forget Galactica 1980 you should have lived here in oz 
where they never showed it. I only found out it even existed about 5 
years ago.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20423.202030.2k6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I think that the first versions should be some sort of spider-
> legged robot along the lines of some of Rodney Brooks' 
> creations.  They should hide in the daytime and come out at 
> night.  They should be airdropped into the rear, and they 
> should be used to spy on things.  Also, if discovered, they 
> should shoot every warm body they see.  Maybe even give them 
> a blade or two to become an intelligent lawnmower.
>
> The psychological implications are great.  Now, who wants to 
> go on patrol tonight, knowing that if you find one of these 
> things, it's going to make meat by-product out of most of 
> your patrol?
>
> I think a gadget like this is already "do-able"

A story in analog during the Vietnam war had a similar idea. A low
flying (treetop skimming) armed drone "plane" that was *very* quiet.

It'd come upon a group of VC or the like and shoot the most aggressive,
dedicated members. The rumor was that it had a "telepathic gunsight".

The real explanation was that it was programmed to fire on anybody who
shot at it! Anybody who has the presence of mind to fire at something
like this when surprised by it is *definitely* someone you want to
kill. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <DAV43ywkGmY8TkomDt500003bb3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20423.201805.9j0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being tried
> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

There were several stories along that line. One was titled "Brillo"
(they named the robot that because it was "metal fuzz" :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:13:17 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEDKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20423.204803.3O9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>>
>> No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
>> homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
>> sex isn't a sin.
>
> You misstate the RR POV, which says there is no *being* in the equation.
> That would suggest something physical. They tend to deny causation outside
> of the fallen (sin) condition. You correctly stated the RCC position, which
> like the jewish view holds that only the act is condemnable.

Yes, and I was replying to a comment that *specificly* mentioned the
Catholic Church. And used "Church" rather than "Christians" to convey
that.

I wasn't talking about the RRR (Radical Religious right) position. Nor
did the section of the post I was replying to. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus> <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

 >
 > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
 >
 > On 4/23/2002 at 5:05 PM ondy wrote:
 >
 >
 >> Love the cover! Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the
 >> pdf will be somewhat better. I will be buying this.
 >>
 >
 > The jpgs don't do it justice really, so I just posted a
 > 4-page PDF sample also. Same pages, but you get a better
 > look at the layout!
 >
 > http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001s.pdf

Hunter,

The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.

Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
into a single product for your Aide line?

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] High Guard to GT Conversion: Tigress DN
Message-ID: <3CC5EF23.19744.FC0AC1@localhost>

--Message-Boundary-8749
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body

Heres my first attempt at converting my all time favorite CT design



--Message-Boundary-8749
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-disposition: inline
Content-description: Attachment information.

The following section of this message contains a file attachment
prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system,
you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

   ---- File information -----------
     File:  TL12 500,000-ton Tigress-class Dreadnought.htm
     Date:  23 Apr 2002, 23:30
     Size:  6305 bytes.
     Type:  HTML-text

--Message-Boundary-8749
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--Message-Boundary-8749--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:36:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:36:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
 <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <200204240037330379.D4645864@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>Hunter,
>
>The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
>concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
>printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
>that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
>likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.
>
>Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
>into a single product for your Aide line?

It depends on what changes would be needed for a specific on-screen version.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20422.182252.6Q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 19:23
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism

In mail you write:

> If anyone in the Portland/Vancouver area that is on this list hears
> about any job that could use someone good with computers or telecom,
> please email me off-list.

I'm trying to scrape by until I can sell some property. Alas, it looks
like I need to spend several hundred bucks I can't afford just to make
the property likely to sell... :-(
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the reply, Leonard.  Everytime I see people on the street
corners with signs, I think to myself that "someday, that will be me".
I think our economy is too sick to recover.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>; from j-man@attbi.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:43PM -0700
References: <20422.182252.6Q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <20020423231739.A10823@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:43PM -0700, J-Man wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the reply, Leonard.  Everytime I see people on the street
> corners with signs, I think to myself that "someday, that will be me".
> I think our economy is too sick to recover.

Don't worry--no economy is too sick to recover.  This ain't the Great
Depression (thankfully: do _any_ of us want to make our children
miserable with tales of the beginning of the century?).  I rather
think that things are in the slow beginnings of a turn-around.  What
really worries me is the war.  Wars wreck havoc on economies.  The
reasons that the Great War and WWII did not on ours (ask Germans how
the 20s and late 40s were) is that in both we had a good supply of
folks to whom we were the only producers around.

Look at the '70s; at the early '90s.  What worries me is that our
current war is going to make the late '00s nasty indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DAV39YAPNXRPmcarcR4000047a2@hotmail.com>

> >> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being
> tried
> >> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce
the
> >> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
> >> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

> >Not off-hand, but that sounds like one of Harry Harrison's from _War
> >with the Robots_.

> Isaac Asimov, The Caves of Steel, circa 1952.

> Wan't that called 'Brillo' ?

Leading to the next natural question:  How many times has this storyline
been done?

FWIW I think 'Brillo' is the one I had in mind when I originally posted.
Wouldn't bet money on it though.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:39:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:39:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV128tG4tOlxlMWvaw00024086@hotmail.com>

> My favorite robot policeman is ED-209.

Gotta love ED-209.

<snip about Autonomous Robot Infantry>

Presumably biological friendlies on the ground in the ARI op area would
carry some kind of IFF transponder to keep from being carved up by their own
'bot.

Now _there's_ a piece of equipment you'd hate to see manufactured by the
lowest bidder <G>.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 00:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 23:34:03 2002
Subject: Public Health (was Re: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <20020424000942.7DBCE27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E170GLO-0004sI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > 
> > Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think
> > it would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> > bathing and sanitation...
> 
> That means you want the rest of the state to fund your desire to live
> where it's expensive (those subsidies have to come from somewhere).
> That's hardly a good thing.

How about funding sanitation for public health reasons?  Even if 
only 5% of the people lack adequate water for sanitation and must 
crap in the street, the disease risk is increased for *everyone*  
public health measures are a common good that is far more 
effective if everyone has access to it, just like vaccination.  The 
pandemics that swept the entire world for milllennia ended for a 
reason.  This reason was a combination of state-sponsored public 
health measures (for dyptheria, typhus and similar bacterial 
diseases) and vaccination (for viruses like polo and smallpox).  If 
these efforts were privately run then the vaccinations might still 
help many people, but the risks of a vaccine that only lasts a 
decade or two (ad many do) would be far higher and public health 
measures would not protect people nearly as well.  

ObTrav:  Have the PCs visit a amber or red zone world (likely the 
only worlds in the Imperium without at least access to basic 
medical tech) with old style epidemic disease, and have the visit 
occur during an outbreak.  The history of the old pandemics was 
horrifying and even if the PCs were immune, life would be rough 
(especially if anyone figured out they were immune).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 00:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 23:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote

> What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a 
> fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who think
> they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to complain
> that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and agitate
> for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact that lead
> to such a system in the first place, since the rationale that supports
> it can be easily used to support increases, and whether society wants
> to try and "buy" them off).

I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.
 
> There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family (?).
>  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those who
> went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this is
> the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of
> "non-working" class in Europe....

Given how rapidly automation is advancing (much modern office 
work will be obsolete in under 20 years), we are almost certainly 
going to have a combination of increasing GNPs *and* an 
increasing number of people out of work in the entire First World.  
Why should they not share in the bounty of an economy that no 
longer has need for (and in fact, likely cannot deal with) for 
everyone to be employed.  

Look at www.technocracyinc.org for some unusual ideas (that I 
agree with) on this front.

Ob Trav: I wonder how many High Tech worlds in the Imperium 
have large unemployed populations.  Finding a way into space on a 
tramp freighter and Imperial service are likely popular ways around 
this lack of on-world work.


-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 01:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 00:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700
References: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com> <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020424010057.A11114@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
> that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.

Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from
firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure
they often use are suicides.  They also fail to mention that at least
three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other
criminals in disputes over illicit drugs,+or police shooting criminals
engaged in felonies.  Subtracting those, we are left with no more than
3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 01:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 00:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204240723.AAA08458@ping.iii.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

>On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> 
>> Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
>> being paid for by the occupants of the city.
>
>Then why subsidise?  You're forcing the well-off to pay for water and
>electricity for the less well-off.

The issue at hand was sanitation, and the reason is simple: good sanitation
and the like is in everyone's interest.  Do you really want sewage pooling
in your neighbor's yard because he can't or won't pay to clean it up?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 01:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 00:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com> <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and that
> it soon will be be one in much of the First World.

Despite living in a country that subsidises its unemployed to a higher
standard of living than its part-time workers, I couldn't agree with
you less.  A guaranteed income is a luxury that a first-world country
can afford, and may even become an entitlement of citizenship, but it
is far from a fundamental right.

Fundamental rights pertain only to things that you may not have taken
from you.  All else is merely benefits or entitlements of a particular
society.


> Given how rapidly automation is advancing (much modern office work
> will be obsolete in under 20 years), we are almost certainly going
> to have a combination of increasing GNPs *and* an increasing number
> of people out of work in the entire First World.

I partially agree with you.  Not on the subject of the obsolescence of
office work; that's been projected "in 20 years" for as long as cheap
and abundant fusion power has, for much the same reasons.

Increasing GNPs, certainly.  Increasing unemployment, possibly.  More
people deciding that they can support themselves in comfort on less
work, yes.  If it wasn't for the government's anti-incentives, I'd be
working comfortably in a part-time job now instead of deciding whether
I'd rather work full-time with buckets of cash and no time to spend
it, or not work at all and have heaps of time to pursue open-source
programming but not save any money.


> Why should they not share in the bounty of an economy that no longer
> has need for (and in fact, likely cannot deal with) for everyone to
> be employed.

An economy can *always* deal with more workers, if left to market
forces.  If there's a surplus of any labour, skilled or unskilled,
wages for those workers can drop until goods or services become viable
to take up all the surplus.  However, quite understandable political
interests and regulations get in the way in practice.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 03:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Wed Apr 24 02:25:02 2002
Subject: Only a month late but --- was Re: [TML] Who are we?
Message-ID: <1B52330D-5764-11D6-B7BF-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

100+ Digests to catch up on...

Is anyone archiving these? ;-)

Name: Dominic Mooney
Age: 30
Country: UK (currently time sharing between Leeds and Liverpool)
Favorite version of Traveller: T4.1 playtest with HG2 for ships, MT as 
fallback
Military Service: None
Favorite Supplement: High Guard 2, Hard Times, Milieu 0 Campaign, 
mumble-mumble Rim of Fire, Far Trader
Favorite Sector: Solomani Rim
Favorite Race: Zhodani
Favorite Empire: Solomani Confederation
Favorite Worlds: The Promise Subsector ones during Hard Times


---------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com----------
     MacOS X 10.1 - Unix with Style
"Reality, is something that you rise above..
We don't see things as they are,  we see them as we are."
Rich - Marillion - .com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 04:08:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 24 03:08:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424010057.A11114@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204241231200.20326-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

(This seems too much off-topic, I will continue this only on tml-chat, but
will not forward this there, because Robert is not there.)

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
> > that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.
> Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

Well, considering that advancing technology seems to require less and less
labor to work it, I think that we will have more and more unemployed
people in the future. 

Not everybody is capable of working in a service profession. 

This _is_ a big problem. Hopefully we will make up something...

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231704.EVL07840@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC73DFE.1550.56B779@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 13:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST 
> series is that everyone is an officer.

That didn't bother me in the slightest, seeing as there were often 
engineering officers doing what we'd have ratings employed at. 
Obviously the later Star Trek period saw a lot of 'job inflation' in 
the Federation. Probably some bureaucrat thought it'd help morale or 
recruitment if everyone in Starfleet got to be an officer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74248.6442.6778E7@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 15:52, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Of course, you can't beat an autonomous robot infantryman for 
> sheer terror.  It's probably a bit harder to kill than a real 
> infantryman, and it's probably a much better shot. And if you 
> manage to kill it, all you've done is trash some electronic 
> parts.  Not very satisfying.  And you probably can't capture 
> one - even if you caught one in a net, it's probably too 
> dangerous.
> 
> I think that the first versions should be some sort of spider-
> legged robot along the lines of some of Rodney Brooks' 
> creations.  They should hide in the daytime and come out at 
> night.  They should be airdropped into the rear, and they 
> should be used to spy on things.  Also, if discovered, they 
> should shoot every warm body they see.  Maybe even give them 
> a blade or two to become an intelligent lawnmower.
> 
> The psychological implications are great.  Now, who wants to 
> go on patrol tonight, knowing that if you find one of these 
> things, it's going to make meat by-product out of most of 
> your patrol?
> 
> I think a gadget like this is already "do-able"

Pity they'll be rather vunerable to man-portable EMP generators, which 
can be made really cheaply.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:42:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:42:38 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC5E36E.801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CC74249.2877.6779B3@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 15:42, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> > Well the importance of even centurions in much of that strife argues 
> > for them being considered officers - very few coups in the modern world 
> > are started and managed by sergeants.
> 
> Au contraire. A number of coups in Africa have been started by Non-coms. 
> IIRC one of the Liberian coup leaders started as a Master Sergeant, 
> wasn't he? Robert someting or another...
> 
> Also, I believe it was a number of Non-coms who started one of the coups 
> against Noriega in Panama, just before the US invasion.

Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are by officers in the 
Captain to Colonel range, with the next group being those run by 
Generals, though these are quite often one General replacing another 
and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have to do more 
reading, methinks.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:45:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:45:25 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8eb83b1f99b@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74249.9558.677A81@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 17:26, David P. Summers wrote:

> A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more people living on 
> public assistance.  (It may not be 50%, but it will depend on what 
> the level is set at).

Curiously even though this is effectively the case in this country 
unemployment and beneficiary numbers are more dependant on other 
factors than on how much money is paid out to 'dole bludgers' and I 
very much doubt that this would change unless quite a lot more money 
was paid to them.
 
> What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a 
> fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who 
> think they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to 
> complain that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and 
> agitate for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact 
> that lead to such a system in the first place, since the rationale 
> that supports it can be easily used to support increases, and whether 
> society wants to try and "buy" them off).
> 
> There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family 
> (?).  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those 
> who went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this 
> is the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of 
> "non-working" class in Europe....

Until the economy is in a state where the demand for labour is such 
that industries are short of it and people are still refusing to work 
it really doesn't matter if some (or most) of the people not working 
aren't because they can't be bothered.

However I do agree that if the level of support is high enough some 
people will chosse to simply not bother to work. In fact it can be )and 
is) arguned that the level of support to solo parents in this country 
is at that level.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:48:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:48:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019586447.9084.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204231803.g3NI3xJ17762@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3CC74248.24093.67780F@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 11:27, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Steven Hudson writes:
> 
> >   ObTrav: the IN is _the_ crucial piece of the 3I's public 
> > infrastructure; the Throne maintains an effective monopoly
> > on its own ownership. Right?
> 
> Well, by definition the IN is only controlled by the Imperium.  However, the
> Throne does not have an effective monopoly on interstellar naval forces.
> 
> However, the other public infrastructure controlled by the throne is just as
> crucial (though, once again, not a monopoly).  That's starports.

Likewise the X-boat system and the survey apparatus, though again these 
aren't a monoploy.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com>
References: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 19:29, JR Holmes wrote:

> Actually, the Social Security fund was never intended to operate in
> the manner you state.  Your "Instead" is, in fact, the way it was
> intended to operate from the start.  If that hadn't been the case,
> Social Security wouldn't have been able to start paying benefits at
> its inception.
> 
> That original structure was founded on the idea that the pool of
> wage-earning taxpayers would always exceed the pool of recipients.  As
> the US went through the demographic surge known as the Baby Boom, the
> pool of taxpayers expanded greatly while the pool of Social Security
> retirees wasn't greatly increasing.
> 
> With that large surge of money going into the system, it represented
> an irresistible opportunity to the politicians to expand the benefits,
> which is exactly what they did (arguably, not too much of a pork
> barrel).  Further, the US government also changed the law to allow use
> of the Social Security surplus to pay for some of the Reagan deficits
> (which, depending upon your viewpoint, might be where the bulk of the
> pork might be found).
> 
> Now, as the members of the Baby Boom start approaching retirement,
> there are fewer members of the pool of wage-earning taxpayers who are
> paying to support a demographic bulge of retirees.  Had the government
> instead simply banked the surplus at a modest interest rate, it would
> not be seeing the oncoming retirement crisis (instead, we would have
> had a different crisis some time ago).

Hmm. Makes NZ's situation look even worse than it is. Our 
superannuation system was supposed to be a form of government 
subsidised savings, but in the 70s everything got put into a 
consolidated fund for efficencies' sake (actually IMO it was so that 
creative spending practices were easier to hide) and mysteriously by 
the mid-80s all the super fund seemed to have gotten lost. Theft by 
government, ain't it grand?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423190732.A7743@4dv.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CC74404.23217.6E3D9E@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 19:07, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > 
> > Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
> > being paid for by the occupants of the city.
> 
> Then why subsidise?  You're forcing the well-off to pay for water and
> electricity for the less well-off.  To an extent this may be
> appropriate, but I wonder to what extent, exactly.  Anyone deserves
> enough water for drinking to keep from dying and bathing to keep
> leprosy at bay, but any more than that should be on a pay-as-you-go
> basis.

If the wealthy want those they pass on the street to not offend their 
noses, why shouldn't they contribute towards the lower orders hygene?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:57:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:57:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74404.13930.6E3CAD@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 0:39, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Permission gladly granted!  Oz is more advanced than the World's 
> Biggest Banana Republic in many areas, brewing comes first to mind.

That must make NZ incredibly advenced then. :)

As a New Zealander I just had to make that dig. Can't have the Aussies 
thinking they brew better beer than we.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:01:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:01:43 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
References: <20020424063707.194DD27A34@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>

Kiri Aradia Morgan posted:
> 
> I'm so glad I have all you people to tell me these things.  They are NOT
> things I'd ever want to find out on my own!
> 
<snip> 
> > I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
> > more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

This is also the reason, I believe, a number of LRRP members in Viet Nam
ate only local food..or so I've heard. Some of the military vets on list
can probably confirm or lay this to rest.

An interesting sidenote for Traveller is the experience on one of the
many
Apollo flights. Apollo 8, I think. 'Twould seem one of the astronauts
had
a bout with some food that didn't agree with him. It hit when they had
been
in orbit preparatory to leaving for the moon. No one informed Mission 
Control and they were told to proceed (lose out on going to the moon
'cause
of the trots? As if!).

Unfortunately, the only "solids" toilet on board was in the form of
waterproof
bags with an adhesive on the inner rim of the opening. The adhesive
didn't
quite take. Everyone helped clean up the mess that had spread from the
Lunar Module, where the sick astronaut took care of business, to the
Command
Module.

A couple of weeks later, a poor Navy diver opened the hatch after the
capsule splashed down and almost fell off the capsule's floats when the
stench of two weeks of unwashed bodies and other things in something the
size of a small walk-in closet hit him.

Oh, and the space shuttle itself also tends to be aired out after each
mission. And, yes, the real toilet can get backed up. It happened about
5-6 missions ago. It was one to the ISS when the space station didn't
have
a permanent working toilet; the rookie on the mission was told by
Mission
Control to break out the long-sleeved plastic glove. It really was his
responsibility, not an act of bad humor.

He was considered the hero of the mission and I'm NOT joking.

So if a PC ever wants to work his passage by doing maintenance work...

GMs can truly have fun with PCs in small starships. <evil grin>

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74719.7719.7A4A2B@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 21:46, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Well, until I washed when I got back, that was the case.  
> After a few weeks, I couldn't smell myself, and I don't think 
> that anyone could really smell me, unlike the people who 
> smelled like soap.

That's my experience, too. It's one of the reasons we didn't like 
officers carping on about shaving in the bush - even a little bit of 
soap smells (and you have to re-apply camo cream on all that nice clean 
face, and any cuts are likely to get infected).
 
> I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago, 
> and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how 
> you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin 
> gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.

I found that after a week or two my hands became a lot less sensitive 
to extreme temperatures (like hot metal canteens of tea) even though 
the skin didn't thicken - it went sort of glassy, though. I also found 
that you didn't notice your own smell or that of your unit, but other 
units did smell a bit. Handy in bush with visibilty measured in metres 
or less.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <DAV32IKcQEF2a9jE11o0001c2c0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC747A3.30593.7C6423@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 22:09, Samuel D. Weiss wrote:

> John T. Kwon wrote,
> 
> >I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago,
> and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how
> you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin
> gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.<
> 
> That is one of my favorite movie lines.
> As you note, he was joking. He was asked why he didn't bathe. His response
> was that body oils, combined with sweat and dirt formed a natural barrier to
> water. (He was dirty because he didn't bathe, he didn't bathe because he was
> going to get dirty in a trench anyway.)
> Later in the movie when they come upon a group of female Soviet soldiers, he
> climbs into a hot tub with one of them fully clothed.
> 
> A really fun movie.
> :)

It's one of my favourites for getting idjits who've watched too much 
rambo to watch before playing in military or pseudo-military games. 
That and The Wild Bunch to instill proper respect for machineguns.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:11:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:11:43 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC748AA.24912.8066F4@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 20:06, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:

> > I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes
> > carries.  There's more than one reason for snipers to be
> > non-smokers. 
> 
> I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
> for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
> withstanding!

The way cigarette smoke clings is one of the reasons I seldom go to 
pubs these days. It's also way we used to try and get all the smokers 
assigned to other sections before an exercise (that and the fact that 
smoker's cough is not a good thing to be having in a tactical 
situation).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424010057.A11114@4dv.net>
References: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CC74B22.1400.8A0C31@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 1:00, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > 
> > I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
> > that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.
> 
> Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

Why shouldn't someone get something if they can't do anything because 
there's no opening for them? A few years back here in NZ a document 
from the Treasury was leaked which reported that in order to keep the 
inflation rate under 2% (the target at that time, IIRC) interest rates 
would have to be maintained at a point which would also maintain the 
unemployment rate at over 6%. Now if a country is going to do something 
like this in order that its businesses, investors and workers (though I 
have my doubts about there having been any concerns about the latter at 
that time) might prosper, surely it has an obligation to look after 
those that it has ensured cannot be employed?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:21:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:21:54 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CC74B22.1369.8A0CF3@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 17:50, Timothy Little wrote:

> I partially agree with you.  Not on the subject of the obsolescence of
> office work; that's been projected "in 20 years" for as long as cheap
> and abundant fusion power has, for much the same reasons.

Like the 'paperless office'. :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:25:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:25:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423231739.A10823@4dv.net>
References: <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>; from j-man@attbi.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:43PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CC74B22.11314.8A0B4B@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 23:17, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Don't worry--no economy is too sick to recover.  This ain't the Great
> Depression (thankfully: do _any_ of us want to make our children
> miserable with tales of the beginning of the century?).  I rather
> think that things are in the slow beginnings of a turn-around.  What
> really worries me is the war.  Wars wreck havoc on economies.  The
> reasons that the Great War and WWII did not on ours (ask Germans how
> the 20s and late 40s were) is that in both we had a good supply of
> folks to whom we were the only producers around.
> 
> Look at the '70s; at the early '90s.  What worries me is that our
> current war is going to make the late '00s nasty indeed.

Which war? The US expenditure on 'war' was quite high even before 
11Sep2001.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:27:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:27:51 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC74BB9.7090.8C5923@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 6:54, David Smart wrote:

> This is also the reason, I believe, a number of LRRP members in Viet Nam
> ate only local food..or so I've heard. Some of the military vets on list
> can probably confirm or lay this to rest.

AFAIK it's true, and was also done by Commonwealth forces in Malaysia.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:48:02 2002
Subject: Stench (was Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>

----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....


> "Robert A. Uhl" says
> >
> >I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head
> >hurts:-(
> >
> After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless
> they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which
> case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.
>
> My roommate could smell me when I came back, after he had
> bathed.
>
> In the field after a few weeks, I could smell bathed people
> at a considerable distance if they were upwind of me.  But it
> didn't work the other way for them (if I was upwind of them).


There used to be this show on TV about Vietnam (I'm sure that somebody
remembers it), and I remember a particular episode where the platoon was
going to take an attractive female new reporter on patrol with them.  All
the guys in the platoon showered, shaved, and slapped on the colone so they
would look godd when the woman arrived, and the platoon sergant chewed them
out for it...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 07:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 24 06:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <20020424000941.9F23227A05@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424145442.00bc2b80@mail.pi.se>

>Message: 5
>Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:51:57 -0500
>From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hello!

>For anyone that might know the answer:
>
>While working on my Mire landgrab, I have come up with a question that I 
>hope someone on the TML might know an answer for.  (Preferably a correct 
>one.  :-) )
>
>What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain in 
>order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?

If you ignore special cases, such as 3:2 orbit resonance (like 
Pluto/Neptune) or 1:1 orbit resonances (like tadpole orbits), and also 
assume the orbits must be stable over long times, like the age of our solar 
system, you basically have two limiters.

The first and more strict one is that the orbits won't be stable in the 
"forbidden zones" of another planet. The simplest way to think of this is 
to think of the Lagrange points of the system. The LG-1 point (usually this 
is considered to be the equilibrium point between the two bodies) separates 
where a particle should orbit either body. So in your example, the planet 
outside Mire will have an LG-1 point a bit inward. Mire can't orbit between 
that point and the outer planet, it must orbit between the local sun and 
the point. Like this

SUN ---- Mire --- Outer Planet's LG-1 --- Outer Planet

The exact breaking point here depends on the masses involved, but the 
example you give is with certainty stable unless the outer planet is 
extremely eccentric and it has a serious mass compared to the local sun. 
For an Earth-size planet around a Solar-mass star, the LG-1 is only about 
1% of the total distance away from the planet, or about four times further 
away than the moon.

The second one has to do with stability radii in multiple planet systems. 
This can be approximated by using Hill radii equations (for "real" 
calculations you need serious computing runs)  Again, this is an 
approximation and gross simplification, and I am not a professional 
astronomer so I may well misunderstand the math and theory.

But if we assume the central star of your example has a mass of 1/3 of our 
Sun, and Mire is Earth-size and orbits in a circular orbit at 0.2 AU the 
outer planet can orbit at 0.3 AU as long as it is not more massive than 
20-40 Earths (or about twice the size of Neptune or Uranus) without 
disrupting Mire's orbit. It would still affect it, though. If the outer 
planet is Earth-size too, you could potentially have a stable orbit at 0.25 
AU for the outer world.

If we take the original 0.4 AU, the world could be Saturn-size or even a 
bit bigger and Mire would still be stable. For a Jupiter-size world, you 
would likely need a distance of about 0.5 AU from the central star, so in 
this case the next stable orbit would be farther away than the Traveller 
orbit number says.

However, you could get a 3:1 orbit resonance (Mire does three orbits in one 
orbit of the outer world) by placing the second world at about 0.41 AU, and 
in this case Mire might be stable even if the outer planet is as big as 
Jupiter, or larger. This world would still affect the orbit a bit, though.

>The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a 
>distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.  Can 
>that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without 
>affecting Mire's orbit?

As above, unless the outer planet is a large gas giant it is IMO very 
likely the orbit would be stable.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 07:34:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 24 06:34:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
(whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
aged and infirm.  

Something I keep telling my children:

Every able bodied person has an obligation to defend the 
weak.  That's a rather broad obligation, but it's there.  If 
you see someone beating someone, you have to stop it and/or 
get help.  And if someone is unable to work, or is starving, 
you have to help them.

Now, whether or not the government is any good at these 
things is something else.  There are times when you can't 
wait for a policeman to come.  And there are times when you 
can't wait for social services to get their act together.  
You don't have to shoulder the whole world, but you have to 
do something.  Just standing there is not an option.
________________
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <F42fOy8Wx1jgTGAP2tb00002903@hotmail.com>

In mail, "Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com> said...

<SNIP>
>If by "tech dreams" you mean any new research, I disagree with the
>philosophy implicit in your statement.  If, on the other hand, you mean
>pie-in-the-sky nonsense, we're on the same page.
>.
>.
>.
>
>I don't know if the Cromatica system will turn out to be research or
>pie-in-the-sky nonsense.
</SNIP>

Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they' wanted to trial in 
the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras were linked to a database 
containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to alert the local 
police when a 'non-desirable' tried entering the city center (note; in 
England, shopping centers/malls can exclude people for illegal behviour, so 
this is not considered a violation of their rights).
Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of 10,000 bodies 
would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals free to go about 
their crimes...
Does anyone know what happened to this idea?

ObTrav: quite a few; PCs and/or friends get 'misidentified' (either way ;-), 
homicidal maniac gets into a busy shopping complex, "robo-mountie" suffers 
silicon senility and starts arresting *everybody*... ad infinitum.

Jeff.

"You want me to stand *where*??"

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:04:03 2002
Subject: Stench (was Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
In-Reply-To: <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <B8EC093B.58417%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/24/02 5:52 AM, Christopher Pratt at cdpratt@gatecom.com wrote:

> There used to be this show on TV about Vietnam (I'm sure that somebody
> remembers it), and I remember a particular episode where the platoon was
> going to take an attractive female new reporter on patrol with them.  All
> the guys in the platoon showered, shaved, and slapped on the colone so they
> would look godd when the woman arrived, and the platoon sergant chewed them
> out for it...

"Tour of Duty".  Strangely, that very episode was on yesterday.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-lethal weapons
Message-ID: <B8EC0B99.58449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all.  Earlier this month someone sent me the URL for an
interesting website on how non-lethal weapons work.  Which I have, of
course, lost.  If that kind soul could resend, I would be most grateful.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]

> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they' 
> wanted to trial in 
> the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras were linked 
> to a database 
> containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to 
> alert the local 
> police when a 'non-desirable' tried entering the city center 
> (note; in 
> England, shopping centers/malls can exclude people for 
> illegal behviour, so 
> this is not considered a violation of their rights).
> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of 
> 10,000 bodies 
> would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals 
> free to go about 
> their crimes...

Ummm, not quite...

As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
their identity will be free to go about their business.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:24:02 2002
Subject: Only a month late but --- was Re: [TML] Who are we?
In-Reply-To: <1B52330D-5764-11D6-B7BF-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <20020424142311.66979.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> Is anyone archiving these? ;-)

I think I have most of them, but I haven't had tome to
sort through them yet.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:36:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:36:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Who are we?
In-Reply-To: <20020424142311.66979.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEFNDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Citizens of the TML at http://www.downport.com/traveller/TML.shtml has been
around a few years. I'm getting ready to do a periodic update if anyone want
s to add /delete / modify any or their bio info on there.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
> --- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> > Is anyone archiving these? ;-)
>
> I think I have most of them, but I haven't had tome to
> sort through them yet.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <B8EC12F8.58455%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/24/02 7:20 AM, Matthew Bond at mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk wrote:

> 
> Ummm, not quite...
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

So they run undesirables out of town?  Nice.  Where do these people go?  And
who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or just those
detained by the police at some previous time?  What about those who have
already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going to be harassed
by the police.

This brings up an interesting question for PC visiting a relatively high law
level world.  Are they entered into a database because adventurers are a
suspicious class of people?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <DAV35SmLAztxc1o8yfo00004bf8@hotmail.com>

Visionics is the name of the company providing (some of) these systems.

There's a pretty fair article about the thing at:

http://www.mediaeater.com/cameras/news/10-2001.html

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:59:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:59:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B87@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Bond [mailto:mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk]
> Ummm, not quite...
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons 
> banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer 
> to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.
> 
> Matt

That said, of course, you are right that there may be false negatives...
so of the 4 failures on two will be innocents inconvenienced by s
policeman asking them who they are, and two will be 'undesirables' who
get to roam the area unmolested... of course, the next camera that sees
them might well pick them out anyway if the failure rate is 'per check'.
And if the police have copies of the mugshots available in their patrol
car (or downloadable to a handheld device) then they can swiftly check
that the person they are questioning is indeed on the list or not.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <200204241458.EXD05545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
<snip about the "smart" camera system>

The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
be.

Factor in the following:

a.  Criminal warrant issued, but no picture
b.  Criminal warrant issued, but not entered into database in 
a timely manner
c.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
found not guilty, data not updated
d.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
does his time, is released, and data not updated

I bet the actual error rate is over 50 percent.  Just go on 
the web and look at the state of Maryland's sex offender 
registry.  They state up front that they can't keep it up to 
date.  They don't really know where these people live.  I 
spoke to someone in that department, and they said that the 
only way to find out accurate information about a particular 
individual is to call and ask for an actual check - they go 
out and find the individual in question.

The culture and infrastructure for systems like these to be 
near 100 percent accurate do not exist.

________________
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:05:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:05:46 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA2270D@USCHM203>

All those infantry odor stories bring back some memories. In my experience,
I never noticed my own smell or that of anyone else around, though as others
have said, after a shower back in the barracks, you could smell the reek off
of your dirty clothes.
One thing you could smell, if you were on regular duty, was a company
returning from several weeks in the field. I swear you could smell them from
about a hundred yards away, and it only grew in intensity until you thought
a herd of goats was passing by.
Probably why my Gunny called everyone "Goddamn goatsmellers!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <200204241509.g3OF9LD01728@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
...
>ObTrav - Why aren't stewards paid more?  Providing creature comforts for 
>crew and passengers surely must be very important.  Good stewards control 
>morale in the uniformed services and can lure paying high passengers to your 
>nondescript Beowulf.

  Economics? If Steward-0 is six weeks F/T at Chez Ronaldo's, then
there's going to be lots of those people available. As it happens
I subscribe to the "spaceship pilots are going to be quite common,
actually" school but the relatively specialized (spaceship) skills
are still going to have greater market value through rarity.

  OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than
Pilot-3 or Engineering-3 - those latter don't clearly affect the
bottom line, after all.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For the Gun Bunnies out there...
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020424111106.00b8da70@mail.charter.net>

and I is one... (Ok...compared to some I'm a fluffy white house rabbit 
while they are dangerous cave guarding rabbits with sharp pointy teeth...)

<http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/modernfirepower/>

Currently in Playtest, you have to a Pyramid subscriber to access the 
playtest files and boards.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:17:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:17:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <200204241458.EXD05545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC7743B.26719.1EA397@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 10:58, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
> <snip about the "smart" camera system>
> 
> The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
> the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
> Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
> to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
> serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
> incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
> be.

How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
least keep the false positive rate down.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B88@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tod Glenn [mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com]
> Sent: 24 April 2002 15:45
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
> 
> 
> on 4/24/02 7:20 AM, Matthew Bond at mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Ummm, not quite...
> > 
> > As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons 
> banned/convicted
> > etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> > flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and 
> either arrested
> > or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> > bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police 
> officer to confirm
> > their identity will be free to go about their business.
> 
> So they run undesirables out of town?  Nice.

Hardly. They would only be restricted from the main shopping precincts.

>  Where do these 
> people go?

Local shops in the area they lived.

>  And
> who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
> crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or 
> just those
> detained by the police at some previous time?  What about 
> those who have
> already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going 
> to be harassed
> by the police.

I would expect that the idea was to only inclued persistent
shoplifters/vandals/muggers/car thieves etc
And it is hardly and great difficulty to flag each record with an expiry
date.

So upon a criminal coming before the courts for the umpteenth time for
such offences the court can order that their 'mugshot' be placed on the
system for a specified length of time. If they stop offending then after
that time they are removed from the database.

> This brings up an interesting question for PC visiting a 
> relatively high law
> level world.  Are they entered into a database because 
> adventurers are a
> suspicious class of people?

I can certainly see this happening on certain planets who want to keep
track of 'offworlders'. IIRC the second Stainless Steel Rat book
(Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge, I think) by Harry Harrison had such a
culture as the main antagonists.

Matt 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For the Gun Bunnies out there...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020424111106.00b8da70@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3CC7779E.14945.2BE21E@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 11:14, Mark Urbin wrote:

> and I is one... (Ok...compared to some I'm a fluffy white house rabbit 
> while they are dangerous cave guarding rabbits with sharp pointy teeth...)
> 
> <http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/modernfirepower/>
> 
> Currently in Playtest, you have to a Pyramid subscriber to access the 
> playtest files and boards.

Actually while the boards and stuff is still up, it's now out of playtest. 
Lots of fun stuff though, including good (IMO) rules for silencers and so 
on.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn, 
Playtester, Modern Firepower.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:50:39PM +1000
References: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com> <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020424093444.A12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:50:39PM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Fundamental rights pertain only to things that you may not have taken
> from you.

I like the way P.J. O'Rourke phrases it: a right is something which
does not take from anyone else.  One has a right to freedom of
religion--until one starts practicing human sacrifice.  One has a
right to freedom of speech--until one incites a riot.  One has a right
to freedom of armament--until one attacks another.  One has a right to
privacy--until one starts hiding bodies.  One has a right to enjoy
whatever particular perversion tickles one's fancy--unless it's rape.
And so on.

None of these impinge upon anyone else.  A right _cannot_ impinge on
anyone else.  When it does, it ceases to be a right.  When something
is an impingement from the very beginning (e.g. handouts--the money
must be taken from someone), it cannot be a right at all.

> If it wasn't for the government's anti-incentives, I'd be working
> comfortably in a part-time job now instead of deciding whether I'd
> rather work full-time with buckets of cash and no time to spend it,
> or not work at all and have heaps of time to pursue open-source
> programming but not save any money.

In fairness, it's not purely governmental disincentives but also
corporate culture.  At least from where I stand most folks do not want
a three-months-a-year employee.  Which is a pity.

> An economy can *always* deal with more workers, if left to market
> forces.  If there's a surplus of any labour, skilled or unskilled,
> wages for those workers can drop until goods or services become viable
> to take up all the surplus.  However, quite understandable political
> interests and regulations get in the way in practice.

Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
out sewage.  I daresay I would.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:48:02 2002
Subject: Stench (was Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
In-Reply-To: <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>; from cdpratt@gatecom.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:25AM -0400
References: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20020424094725.B12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:25AM -0400, Christopher Pratt wrote:
> 
> There used to be this show on TV about Vietnam (I'm sure that somebody
> remembers it), and I remember a particular episode where the platoon was
> going to take an attractive female new reporter on patrol with them.  All
> the guys in the platoon showered, shaved, and slapped on the colone so they
> would look good when the woman arrived, and the platoon sergant chewed them
> out for it...

Judging by my father's tales of the Navy--back when it was a man's
navy--they probably figured it was well worth it.  Heck, I know from
Scout camp that a few days makes the one girl in camp the most
beautiful woman in the world.  I can only image that after some months
out the effect becomes rather more pronounced.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <OF113CE2E0.677F0151-ON85256BA5.00569E86@pheaa.org>







>Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
>willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
>out sewage.  I daresay I would.

True but because there are so few people willing to do it i bet the pay for
workers to do that job is really good 8P one of the things i believe is a
factor in how you get paid is the number of people able or willing to do
the job. Lots of people want to be basketball stars but very few are able
to play basketball at that level of ability. Lots of people would rather
make 15 bucks an hour instead of 5 but very few are willing to clean sewers
to get it.

anyway hasta

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400
References: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> 
> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
> aged and infirm.  

I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?

People who cannot work are another matter.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In the UNIX world, being dependent on a GUI is the same thing as not
being a sysadmin.                                        --BigZaphod

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:58:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:58:10 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <3CC748AA.24912.8066F4@localhost>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>

At 12:07 AM 4/25/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
> > for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
> > withstanding!
>
>The way cigarette smoke clings is one of the reasons I seldom go to
>pubs these days. It's also way we used to try and get all the smokers
>assigned to other sections before an exercise (that and the fact that
>smoker's cough is not a good thing to be having in a tactical
>situation).

The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people 
having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for 
days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by 
smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.

ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 10:00:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 09:00:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>; from mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:20:51PM +0100
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <20020424095613.D12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:20:51PM +0100, Matthew Bond wrote:
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 10:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 24 09:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <F2090Q5B71GmFs40SIq0000224a@hotmail.com>

From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)

     "Economics? If Steward-0 is six weeks F/T at Chez Ronaldo's, then
there's going to be lots of those people available. As it happens I 
subscribe to the "spaceship pilots are going to be quite common,
actually" school but the relatively specialized (spaceship) skills are still 
going to have greater market value through rarity."


Mr. Hudson,

     Yes, most likely economics or the usual human "we'll muddle through" 
and "it's good enough" attitudes.  It's only a week after all, you can get 
something good to eat, or sleep in a clean room, or whatever after we reach 
our next port.

     "OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than
Pilot-3 or Engineering-3 - those latter don't clearly affect the bottom 
line, after all."

     Most definitely.  Here in the Biggest Little and in many other locales, 
restaurants advertise the chefs they have on staff.  There is a constant 
struggle to lure "names" away from your competitors and hold onto those you 
have.  Naturally for ever heavy hitter, there are dozens of third assistant 
bottle washers.
     If I were GMing today (alas), I'd most certainly present the PCs with 
an NPC super-duper-steward.  That fellow would ask for more pay and be a bit 
of a prima-donna to handle, but he would also fill the cabins with high 
passengers and have high skilled, low wage NPC crewmen begging the PCs to 
sign on.  Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he 
needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to 
insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.

PC - "Cilantro!??!  Just where in hades are we going to find cilantro on 
Roup?  Good Sweet Strephon, Melmotte, cilantro?!"

Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop 
for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze 
baronne merde?"


     Sincerely,
     Larsen
>
>   Steven Hudson
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 11:02:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 10:02:06 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>; from gridlore@mindspring.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <3CC748AA.24912.8066F4@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020424110133.E12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also
> people having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

So you make sure they're not addicts--you don't forbid them to smoke,
period.  Or you allow them other forms of nicotine: chewing tobacco,
while it has a distinctive odour, I don't think is as strong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`You know, there's a word for people who
 think that everyone is out to get them...'
`Yes! Perceptive!'           --Woody Allen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 11:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr 24 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEGDDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Hey, good plot device. Your team has been assigned to popularize tobacco use
among young Vargr to reduce their olfactory effectiveness should they decide
to join the other side in the brewing dissatisfaction with the current
Imperial borders.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for
> days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by
> smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.
>
> ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 12:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Apr 24 11:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus> <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net> <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com> <200204240037330379.D4645864@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CC6F5FF.5070407@telocity.com>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

>>Hunter,
>>
>>The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
>>concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
>>printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
>>that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
>>likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.
>>
>>Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
>>into a single product for your Aide line?
>>
>
>It depends on what changes would be needed for a specific on-screen version.
>
Nothing big, I don't think.  The problem I have with the standard layout 
is that the page length is greater than the screen height at a readable 
resolution. When I go to full page mode, the resolution on my 19" 
monitor is something like 80%, and my tired old eyes can't handle that. 
<g> On smaller monitors, say a laptop, it would be even worse.  But when 
I set the resolution to a nice reading size, I only get a half to 
two-thirds of the page on the screen. Because of the two column format, 
I then have scroll up and down on every page. Scrolling up and down like 
that is a regular pain, especially when charts and tables are involved.

I can think of a couple of "easy" fixes, first if you provided a single 
column format, then it wouldn't really matter if the page length 
exceeded the screen height, as I would only have to scroll down as I 
read.  Alternatively, and a better (but most likely more difficult 
approach)  would be to reduce the page lengths by about half, then each 
page would fit on the screen in comfortable reading resolution.

Hunter, I don't know if either approach would qualify as easy, but 
consideration for something like that would be most appreciated by this 
member of your market.

Please, note I'm not suggesting you change the format for the 
printer-friendly version, that looks very nice. It's just that also 
having a screen-friendly version would be nice, too.

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 12:24:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Apr 24 11:24:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
>
> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]
>
>> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they'
>> wanted to trial in  the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras
were linked
>> to a database containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to
[deletion]
>> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
>> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of
>> 10,000 bodies would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals
>> free to go about  their crimes...
>

Matthew Bond replied:
>As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
>etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
>flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
>or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
>bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
>their identity will be free to go about their business.

I think you've both misstated what it means.  The CCTV will look at all
persons in the mall.  It will misidentify 4% of them.  If 10,000 persons are
scanned, 200 non-criminals will be wrongly identified as criminals and 200
criminals will be wrongly identified as non-criminals.

Jeff's error was to apply the 4% to the population of the city; only the
population being scanned by CCTV is at issue.  (That may, of course, be the
entire population of the city.)  Matthew's error was to apply the 4% only to
the people flagged for police attention.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 13:08:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 24 12:08:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHMEALCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

The only real PC floppy drive compatibility issues relate to the 5-1/4 in
floppies when using the same media between 360KB and 1.2MB drives. Although
a 1.2MB drive can write both 360KB and 1.2MB disks, a serious problem may
occur if the 1.2MB drive erases or writes to a disk previously formatted
with a 360KB drive and the data is then attempted to be read from a 360KB
drive. This will cause random data read errors due to the fact that the
1.2MB drive head is narrower than the 360KB drive head. Thus when the 360KB
drive reads the 1.2MB drive data from the disk, it inadvertently GLEANS the
previous data written by the original 360KB drive.

-Shawn R Sears-
(MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, A+, N+, CCNA)

CCNP Pending!  :-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 13:13:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 12:13:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423190649.00cb5d28@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20424.111826.4l6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I just finished reading Coventry.  Coventry was his "your right to swing 
> your fist ends at someone else's nose" system.
> That was America after the Second Revolution, that was civilization.
> If you rejected Coventry or were denied Coventry, you were sent to the 
> walled off section where the strong ruled the weak.

No. *Coventry* was where you got sent if you rejected the *Covenant*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 13:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 24 12:23:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231147070.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEAMCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> > >
> > > I don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
> > > backgammon on the Metro.
> >
> > Ah, but there's also solitaire.
> >


For $399 you can get one with a built in cell phone, wireless message
service, email, and web browser

www.handspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:02:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:02:12 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people

>having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

Great. Give people one more reason not to reenlist. When I was in the
Marines the smoking rate was easily over 50%, at least among grunts. This
was back in the 80s, of course, so I imagine this has gone down some. 
As far as people having nic fits not being useful in combat, I wonder how
the millions of smoking combat veterans of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam would
feel about that.
We almost had a base-wide mutiny when North Carolina upped the drinking age
from 19 to 21 without a grandfather clause.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 3:00 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #438 - 7 msgs


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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: smells (Douglas Berry)
   2. Re: Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack") (Robert A. Uhl)
   3. Re: Re: stewards (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
   4. Re: smells (Robert A. Uhl)
   5. RE: smells (Swordy)
   6. Re: Traveller's Aide #1 (Eris Reddoch)
   7. RE: Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack") (Glenn M. Goffin)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:52:58 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] smells
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 12:07 AM 4/25/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
> > for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
> > withstanding!
>
>The way cigarette smoke clings is one of the reasons I seldom go to
>pubs these days. It's also way we used to try and get all the smokers
>assigned to other sections before an exercise (that and the fact that
>smoker's cough is not a good thing to be having in a tactical
>situation).

The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people 
having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for 
days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by 
smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.

ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:56:13 -0600
From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:20:51PM +0100, Matthew Bond wrote:
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.

--__--__--

Message: 3
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: stewards
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:26:50 +0000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)

     "Economics? If Steward-0 is six weeks F/T at Chez Ronaldo's, then
there's going to be lots of those people available. As it happens I 
subscribe to the "spaceship pilots are going to be quite common,
actually" school but the relatively specialized (spaceship) skills are still

going to have greater market value through rarity."


Mr. Hudson,

     Yes, most likely economics or the usual human "we'll muddle through" 
and "it's good enough" attitudes.  It's only a week after all, you can get 
something good to eat, or sleep in a clean room, or whatever after we reach 
our next port.

     "OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than
Pilot-3 or Engineering-3 - those latter don't clearly affect the bottom 
line, after all."

     Most definitely.  Here in the Biggest Little and in many other locales,

restaurants advertise the chefs they have on staff.  There is a constant 
struggle to lure "names" away from your competitors and hold onto those you 
have.  Naturally for ever heavy hitter, there are dozens of third assistant 
bottle washers.
     If I were GMing today (alas), I'd most certainly present the PCs with 
an NPC super-duper-steward.  That fellow would ask for more pay and be a bit

of a prima-donna to handle, but he would also fill the cabins with high 
passengers and have high skilled, low wage NPC crewmen begging the PCs to 
sign on.  Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he

needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to 
insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.

PC - "Cilantro!??!  Just where in hades are we going to find cilantro on 
Roup?  Good Sweet Strephon, Melmotte, cilantro?!"

Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop 
for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze 
baronne merde?"


     Sincerely,
     Larsen
>
>   Steven Hudson
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


_________________________________________________________________
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--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:01:33 -0600
From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] smells
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also
> people having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

So you make sure they're not addicts--you don't forbid them to smoke,
period.  Or you allow them other forms of nicotine: chewing tobacco,
while it has a distinctive odour, I don't think is as strong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`You know, there's a word for people who
 think that everyone is out to get them...'
`Yes! Perceptive!'           --Woody Allen

--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] smells
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:21:27 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hey, good plot device. Your team has been assigned to popularize tobacco use
among young Vargr to reduce their olfactory effectiveness should they decide
to join the other side in the brewing dissatisfaction with the current
Imperial borders.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for
> days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by
> smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.
>
> ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.



--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:14:23 -0500
From: Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hunter Gordon wrote:

>>Hunter,
>>
>>The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
>>concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
>>printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
>>that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
>>likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.
>>
>>Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
>>into a single product for your Aide line?
>>
>
>It depends on what changes would be needed for a specific on-screen
version.
>
Nothing big, I don't think.  The problem I have with the standard layout 
is that the page length is greater than the screen height at a readable 
resolution. When I go to full page mode, the resolution on my 19" 
monitor is something like 80%, and my tired old eyes can't handle that. 
<g> On smaller monitors, say a laptop, it would be even worse.  But when 
I set the resolution to a nice reading size, I only get a half to 
two-thirds of the page on the screen. Because of the two column format, 
I then have scroll up and down on every page. Scrolling up and down like 
that is a regular pain, especially when charts and tables are involved.

I can think of a couple of "easy" fixes, first if you provided a single 
column format, then it wouldn't really matter if the page length 
exceeded the screen height, as I would only have to scroll down as I 
read.  Alternatively, and a better (but most likely more difficult 
approach)  would be to reduce the page lengths by about half, then each 
page would fit on the screen in comfortable reading resolution.

Hunter, I don't know if either approach would qualify as easy, but 
consideration for something like that would be most appreciated by this 
member of your market.

Please, note I'm not suggesting you change the format for the 
printer-friendly version, that looks very nice. It's just that also 
having a screen-friendly version would be nice, too.

Eris


--__--__--

Message: 7
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
To: "Traveller-Digest" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:12:42 -0700
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
>
> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]
>
>> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they'
>> wanted to trial in  the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras
were linked
>> to a database containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to
[deletion]
>> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
>> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of
>> 10,000 bodies would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals
>> free to go about  their crimes...
>

Matthew Bond replied:
>As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
>etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
>flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
>or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
>bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
>their identity will be free to go about their business.

I think you've both misstated what it means.  The CCTV will look at all
persons in the mall.  It will misidentify 4% of them.  If 10,000 persons are
scanned, 200 non-criminals will be wrongly identified as criminals and 200
criminals will be wrongly identified as non-criminals.

Jeff's error was to apply the 4% to the population of the city; only the
population being scanned by CCTV is at issue.  (That may, of course, be the
entire population of the city.)  Matthew's error was to apply the 4% only to
the people flagged for police attention.

--Glenn



--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:14:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:14:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Who are we?
Message-ID: <20020424.130435.-189813.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

FWIW I saved all of them, 75 including Dominic's.

Turokan

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:36:26 -0400 "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> writes:
> Citizens of the TML at http://www.downport.com/traveller/TML.shtml 
> has been
> around a few years. I'm getting ready to do a periodic update if 
> anyone want
> s to add /delete / modify any or their bio info on there.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
> > --- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> > > Is anyone archiving these? ;-)
> >
> > I think I have most of them, but I haven't had tome to
> > sort through them yet.
> 
> 

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:21:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:21:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <20424.121604.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> For anyone that might know the answer:
>
> While working on my Mire landgrab, I have come up with a question that I 
> hope someone on the TML might know an answer for.  (Preferably a correct 
> one.  :-) )
>
> What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain in 
> order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?  The reason I ask is that Mire 
> is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a distance of .2 AU.  By default, the 
> next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.
>   Can that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without 
> affecting Mire's orbit?

It's not so much a matter of "how close" as the ratio of the orbital
periods. If two bodies have orbits such that one's period is a simple
multiple of the other, then you get *bad* effects. 

As an example, say there was a planet orbiting the sun at a distance
that would give it a 2 year period.

Every two years, earth would give it a "tug" towards the sun at the
same point it it's orbit. After a while, it'd be in a different orbit.

Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
of the period.

So, for my example above, a planet with twice the period of Earth:

D^2 = 2^3
D^2 = 8
D = sqrt(8)
D = 2.82 AU

For your planets, at .2 and .4 AU, if we call the period of the inner
planet 1, and the distance of the outer planet, 2 we get:

2^2 = P^3
4 = P^3
4^(1/3) = P 
1.59 = P

So the ratio of the periods is 1:1.59 and you *won't* get resonance
problems.

.2 AU is still 18.6 million miles (30 million km) so they aren't
exactly close...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:24:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:24:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <OF113CE2E0.677F0151-ON85256BA5.00569E86@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <20424.124156.7n8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
>>willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
>>out sewage.  I daresay I would.

Sometiomes it's what you are *able* to do. Right now, I could get by
with a fast food job. Trouble is, they involve standing for long
periods. Which I *cannot* do.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:27:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:27:27 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20424.123910.5K5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>>
>> >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
>> 
>> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
>> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
>> aged and infirm.  
>
> I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
> that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
> at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?

Ah, but what about one that lets you "survive"? Not comfortable, just
"tolerable". No luxuries unless you decide to do without something
else...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:44:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:44:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <20424.124156.7n8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <01a701c1ebcf$03eb6280$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Not me, please give me the garbage, sewer cleaning job, as it pays well. the
problem is that so many service industry job are being created. while it
causes unemployment to go down it also means that you have to work 2 jobs
and 60 hours a week to keep a roof over your head. me and my wife work, and
I am trying to go to school to get my degree and certification for Cisco so
I can get a better paying job so my wife can go to school and hopefully get
a better paying job, the problem is, that I am almost afraid to say I will
not be as successful as my parents , so much for the American dream
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism


> In mail you write:
>
> >>Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
> >>willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
> >>out sewage.  I daresay I would.
>
> Sometiomes it's what you are *able* to do. Right now, I could get by
> with a fast food job. Trouble is, they involve standing for long
> periods. Which I *cannot* do.
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:49:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:49:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20424.123910.5K5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020424163654.00b94210@urbin.net>

At 12:39 PM 4/24/02 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> > >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> >> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled
> >> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The
> >> aged and infirm.
> > I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> > able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
> > that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
> > at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> > another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?
>Ah, but what about one that lets you "survive"? Not comfortable, just
>"tolerable". No luxuries unless you decide to do without something
>else...

$20,000 a year won't even get you "tolerable" in NYC.

In Mobile, Alabama, it's on the plus side of "reasonably"

Where you're at has a lot to do with it.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424135724.009f6460@mindspring.com>

At 03:56 PM 4/24/02 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> >The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people
>
> >having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.
>
>Great. Give people one more reason not to reenlist. When I was in the
>Marines the smoking rate was easily over 50%, at least among grunts. This
>was back in the 80s, of course, so I imagine this has gone down some.
>As far as people having nic fits not being useful in combat, I wonder how
>the millions of smoking combat veterans of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam would
>feel about that.

Well, we learned that in Vietnam at least the VC often located US OPs by 
the smell of cigarette smoke.  Having addicts in the trenches does not aid 
in the mission.

>We almost had a base-wide mutiny when North Carolina upped the drinking age
>from 19 to 21 without a grandfather clause.

I was at Benning when that happened. The common reaction was "who cares" 
and the clubs on VD Drive never bothered to check IDs.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>
References: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com> <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com> <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020425073936.A11272@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Hmm. Makes NZ's situation look even worse than it is. Our
> superannuation system was supposed to be a form of government
> subsidised savings,

That was what Australia's old-age pension used to be.  Although the
funds weren't lost, by the time the contributors reached retirement
age, the government had introduced assets and independent income tests
to prevent many of the original people from accessing their "savings",
and the original income taxes that funded the scheme had long since
been legislatively disconnected from the pension.

Now we've got compulsory superannuation.  Oh yes, it looks very
attractive at first -- heavy tax breaks, the government will match any
voluntary contributions up to a certain percentage of your income --
but I doubt I'll be allowed to touch it by the time I'm 55, ... no, 60
..., no, 65.  If there's anything left of it after slowly increasing
tax rates, that is.

Oops!  Not much relation to Traveller here.  Sorry!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC74404.23217.6E3D9E@localhost>
References: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700 <3CC74404.23217.6E3D9E@localhost>
Message-ID: <3cc920e4.11435731@post.demon.co.uk>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:

>If the wealthy want those they pass on the street to not offend their=20
>noses, why shouldn't they contribute towards the lower orders hygene?

Agreed - although I was more concerned about typhoid and cholera...
(and probably new, improved antibiotic-resistant cholera, too). =20

It's all about enlightened self-interest:  it's to my personal benefit
that everybody in my community has access to decent sanitation, even
the poorest.  I'm willing to pay for that through higher taxes.
(though I'd draw the line at filling swimming pools or watering
20-acre lawns;  you shouldn't get subsidies for that...<g>).

=46or the same reason I support giving subsidies to public transport,
even by people who never use it - because they still benefit from
clearer roads, more parking spaces and less pollution.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8ecd76ee706@[143.232.119.186]>

At 11:53 PM -0700 4/23/02, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote
>
>>  What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a
>>  fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who think
>>  they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to complain
>>  that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and agitate
>>  for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact that lead
>>  to such a system in the first place, since the rationale that supports
>>  it can be easily used to support increases, and whether society wants
>>  to try and "buy" them off).
>
>I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and
>that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.

So those of us who work are expected to make sure every gets money 
regardless of what they do?  I think that is both morally wrong (what 
right do other peole have on the fruit of my efforts) and unworkable 
(such system have always become burdened by those who abuse them).

>
>>  There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family (?).
>>   It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those who
>>  went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this is
>>  the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of
>>  "non-working" class in Europe....
>
>Given how rapidly automation is advancing (much modern office
>work will be obsolete in under 20 years), we are almost certainly
>going to have a combination of increasing GNPs *and* an
>increasing number of people out of work in the entire First World. 
>Why should they not share in the bounty of an economy that no
>longer has need for (and in fact, likely cannot deal with) for
>everyone to be employed.

If you want to have a system for those who can't find work that is 
one thing.  But that is a far cry from guaranteed income.

And this whole "technology will create a class of people with nothing 
to do" is nothing more than a recycling of the Ludditism of the 
Industrial Revolution.  The money saved by automation creates demand 
for more products and services by those with the money which creates 
jobs.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:52:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:52:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <20424.121604.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com> <20424.121604.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020425074906.B11272@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
> of the period.

Oops, it's the other way around :)

(2 pi / T)^2 = G M / R^3
so T^2 = k R^3, where k = (2 pi)^2 / (G M)


> .2 AU is still 18.6 million miles (30 million km) so they aren't
> exactly close...

Indeed.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC74249.9558.677A81@localhost>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <3CC74249.9558.677A81@localhost>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8ecd9104997@[143.232.119.186]>

At 11:39 PM +1200 4/24/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 23 Apr 2002 at 17:26, David P. Summers wrote:
>
>>  A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more people living on
>>  public assistance.  (It may not be 50%, but it will depend on what
>>  the level is set at).
>
>Curiously even though this is effectively the case in this country
>unemployment and beneficiary numbers are more dependant on other
>factors than on how much money is paid out to 'dole bludgers' and I
>very much doubt that this would change unless quite a lot more money
>was paid to them.

I don't know if New Zeland is a small, relatively isolated, country 
that is an exception (though I must say I have my doubts) but from 
the Roman Empire, to the Soviet Union, to European welfare states we 
have seen enough to that if they don't have to work, a significant 
fraction of society will go for the free ride.

>
>>  What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a
>>  fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who
>>  think they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to
>>  complain that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and
>>  agitate for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact
>>  that lead to such a system in the first place, since the rationale
>>  that supports it can be easily used to support increases, and whether
>>  society wants to try and "buy" them off).
>>
>>  There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family
>>  (?).  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those
>>  who went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this
>>  is the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of
>>  "non-working" class in Europe....
>
>Until the economy is in a state where the demand for labour is such
>that industries are short of it and people are still refusing to work
>it really doesn't matter if some (or most) of the people not working
>aren't because they can't be bothered.

Of course when jobs come along, why should they be bothered then?  A 
lot of the issue was the _contempt_ for the idea that one should be 
expected to work for a living....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 16:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed Apr 24 15:01:03 2002
Subject: Beer (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <20020424123206.EE8A027A4A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008b01c1ebdb$e8dac0a0$e65d8690@computer>

> From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> As a New Zealander I just had to make that dig. Can't have the Aussies
> thinking they brew better beer than we.

Actually, the best beer in the world is brewed in Australia:  Guinness. : )

Most British and Irish beers brewed in Australia have higher alcohol
contents than the original versions, to allow them to compete in the market
here.

I actually prefer Kilkenny to Guinness.  I drink different beers in
different pubs.  In one, I tend to drink Boddington's.  In others, I drink
good old XXXX (brewed in Brisbane), with VB (from Melbourne) an "if all else
fails" option.  The last two are basically cat urine, but drinkable in
sufficient quantities.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 16:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 24 15:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Question on planetary orbits
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424234029.00ab4ef0@mail.pi.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

 >It's not so much a matter of "how close" as the ratio of the orbital
 >periods. If two bodies have orbits such that one's period is a simple
 >multiple of the other, then you get *bad* effects.

Not necessarily. Gliese 876's two known planets are in a 2:1 resonance, 
both are massive and on short period orbits. I think HD82943 is another 
example. Jupiter's inner three moons are in a 2:1 resonance series, a 
Laplace resonance. Resonance can provide stability to a planetary or lunar 
system, and it may be a not uncommon feature to have planets captured into 
2:1 and 3:1 resonances, based upon simulations of orbital migration.

 >Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
 >of the period.

Keplers third law is that the square of the period is proportional to the 
cube of the distance.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 16:37:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 24 15:37:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020424.145416.-149337.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:38:27 -0400 Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> At 12:39 PM 4/24/02 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >In mail you write:
> > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> > > >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> > >> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled
> > >> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The
> > >> aged and infirm.
> > > I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> > > able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  
> Except
> > > that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me 
> live
> > > at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> > > another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am 
> lazy?
> >Ah, but what about one that lets you "survive"? Not comfortable, 
> just
> >"tolerable". No luxuries unless you decide to do without something
> >else...
> 
> $20,000 a year won't even get you "tolerable" in NYC.
> 
> In Mobile, Alabama, it's on the plus side of "reasonably"
> 
> Where you're at has a lot to do with it.
> 

Well, I hate to butt in here, but I'm a prime example of the above
conversation.

I'm disabled as you all know, pulling in roughly $17.5k via S.S. and my
disability pension. My wife doesn't work, and must take care of me. We
were basically kicked out of the SF Bay area, and now live in an
"afordable" housing apartment in Stockton with our 21 year old son who
works part time, and helped us qualify for our rent.  Tolerable is barely
the word for it. After our 25th wedding aniversary next month, we may
divorce just so that my wife can receive SSI. If we do, then our life
here might be considered tolerable.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
Message-ID: <147.d7848aa.29f899cd@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/24/2002 2:04:39 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:

>Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for 
>days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by 
>smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.

That's why I never understood those commercials for [various products] to 
remove tobacco stains from the teeth. They usually take the following form:

"A: Have you quit smoking?
B: Uh . . . what do you think?
A: Your teeth are so white . . . "

I never understood this because in my experience just being in the same room 
with a smoker can make one's clothes _reek_ of tobacco for days. I could 
always tell when my brother gave up trying to quit, and when my nephew took 
up pot on a regular basis.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <147.d7848aa.29f899cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>

Try being allergic to cig smoke.
It makes being out in public very unhappy, especially when I don't sneeze,
but develope the all over body itch. VERY nasty.

Then again I do a lot of hiking and I know that folks in the field develop a
special smell that they don't notice till they clean up. At least we act
like we don't notice ;)

TV

--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <20020424095613.D12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250924020.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Robert:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

 The incorrect response is "Sorry Man I've only got a pipe."

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:59:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:59:36 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <20020424110133.E12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250925440.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Robert:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> >
> > The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also
> > people having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.
>
> So you make sure they're not addicts--you don't forbid them to smoke,
> period.  Or you allow them other forms of nicotine: chewing tobacco,
> while it has a distinctive odour, I don't think is as strong.

 Yes in the field we did only eat native food. As the VC could smell us
miles away. All the nice products that the service present to us have
distinctive smells. From shaving materials to the gun oil. Making us
olafactory targets.

 As for smoking, this is a touchy subject. i happen to be pro smoking. But
if it is a way soon to beat the draft. Well I know a lot of people that
will take it up. A mess more that would have used it back in 68. <G>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:06:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:06:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
> Matthew Bond replied:
> >As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> >etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> >flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> >or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> >bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> >their identity will be free to go about their business.
>
> I think you've both misstated what it means.  The CCTV will look at all
> persons in the mall.  It will misidentify 4% of them.  If 10,000 persons
are
> scanned, 200 non-criminals will be wrongly identified as criminals and 200
> criminals will be wrongly identified as non-criminals.
>
> Jeff's error was to apply the 4% to the population of the city; only the
> population being scanned by CCTV is at issue.  (That may, of course, be
the
> entire population of the city.)  Matthew's error was to apply the 4% only
to
> the people flagged for police attention.
>
> --Glenn

Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in
the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database? It
is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken as one in 25
of the members of the database will be misidentified... If there was only
one picture in the database is there a 4% chance that any given person will
be identified as it? Or much more likely, if there was only one person in
the database 4% of the time the system would report 'no match' when
analysing a picture of that individual.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250925440.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link writes:

>  As for smoking, this is a touchy subject. i happen to be pro smoking. But
> if it is a way soon to beat the draft. Well I know a lot of people that
> will take it up. A mess more that would have used it back in 68. <G>

Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine they'd
just draft you anyway and force you to quit.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHMEALCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Shawn:

Comments below quoted.

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Shawn R Sears wrote:

> The only real PC floppy drive compatibility issues relate to the 5-1/4 in
> floppies when using the same media between 360KB and 1.2MB drives. Although
> a 1.2MB drive can write both 360KB and 1.2MB disks, a serious problem may
> occur if the 1.2MB drive erases or writes to a disk previously formatted
> with a 360KB drive and the data is then attempted to be read from a 360KB
> drive. This will cause random data read errors due to the fact that the
> 1.2MB drive head is narrower than the 360KB drive head. Thus when the 360KB
> drive reads the 1.2MB drive data from the disk, it inadvertently GLEANS the
> previous data written by the original 360KB drive.

 All of the above is interesting. But not my main Traveller theme part.
For example <composing a reply to a prior msg with this topic> The entire
premise above is dealing with the measurements of the micro$haft style of
disks and formatting. i use Commodore exclusively. First we measure in
blocks 4 = 1kb. The single sided drives read thes disk at 664 C= blocks.
This is the 1541 disk drive. If I can do the math right that is 166kb Then
the 1571 dreive is a double head reader. Now the Comodore built 3 1/2"
drive did the double sided double density disks and formatted at 800kb
free. 790kb free if formatted in the Geos/Wheels OS environment. CMD's
FD-2000 does the DD/DS 3 1/2" disks but also the high density disks and
formats them at 1.6MB. Commodore never made a high density 5 1/4" drive.
Any one want a collection of the HD 5 1/4" disks? Got a mess of them some
factory. Make great targets. <G>

 Anyway what my Traveller computer premise is about is not only different
eras of computers of the same platform. But different standards amongst
the history of the Imperium and the subjective worlds. From multiple
companies in the Imperium. All the ay to the different tech level worlds
that have some sort of Imperial contact.

 Now then all tat said. We have talked about some converting things. using
what I know which is a samttering of the techy stuff for the Commodore
world. i have tools that allow translation on my system. Allowing me to
translate from Pet to Ascii and back again. So that part is covered for
text. I also have tools that allow scaling of JPGs and GIFs. These at
videocam. That allow for my screen size. I have tools to pas along to the
windoze and Amiga users that allow the text translation for my preferred
DT <Desk Top> system Geos. Even the ability to make .D64 image files for
the emulator users.

 OK what I am looking at on this topic is the same type of things in tols
and utils for converting different standards and platforms in the 3I.
Based and projecting from the exisitng styles we have now. Putting that
into the CT game.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250956500.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Anthony:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine they'd
> just draft you anyway and force you to quit.

 i don't know about the draft. The last I heard it takes a fast vote in
congress to reinstate it. On this I am not certain. I personally am way to
old to be drafted. But they can recall me if needed. ALmost happened in
Desert Storm. But smokers that fight the quit part would most likely be
discharged under the unfit for military service clauses. Which I
understand there are many classifications for that now. But I have been
out of the military since 71. Oh FWIW I don't smoke cigs, being a pipe
smoker for 40+ years. Nope don'T want to quit and my O2 rate last year was
99% at my physical. <G>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250956500.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019696542.4978.ajackson@ping>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link writes:
> Hoi Anthony:
> 
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> > Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine
> > they'd just draft you anyway and force you to quit.
> 
>  i don't know about the draft. The last I heard it takes a fast vote in
> congress to reinstate it.
Sure, congress is theoretically able to reinstate the draft.  They're just
vanishingly unlikely to want to.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 19:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 18:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425073936.A11272@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC800BE.5191.7D9315@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 7:39, Timothy Little wrote:

> That was what Australia's old-age pension used to be.  Although the
> funds weren't lost, by the time the contributors reached retirement
> age, the government had introduced assets and independent income tests
> to prevent many of the original people from accessing their "savings",
> and the original income taxes that funded the scheme had long since
> been legislatively disconnected from the pension.

Sounds like the same old story.
 
> Now we've got compulsory superannuation.  Oh yes, it looks very
> attractive at first -- heavy tax breaks, the government will match any
> voluntary contributions up to a certain percentage of your income --
> but I doubt I'll be allowed to touch it by the time I'm 55, ... no, 60
> ..., no, 65.  If there's anything left of it after slowly increasing
> tax rates, that is.

I think that's where we're headed. The previous government had this 
system where you could set up your fund with a commercial provider, and 
therefore it should be safe from the government. Of course you're then 
relying on the provider being around when you retire, and the terms and 
conditions not being quietly changed. And of course you're also having 
to pay for the profits of the provider out of your interest.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 19:15:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 18:15:58 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>
References: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400
Message-ID: <3CC800BD.22553.7D928D@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 9:54, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >
> > >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> > 
> > Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
> > (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
> > aged and infirm.  
> 
> I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
> that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
> at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?

As long as there are more people willing to work then there are slots 
available, why not? By not working you're accepting a lower income in 
order to make the slot you'd have taken open for another who wants it 
more than you. This works until there's a labour shortage and people 
are still not working, at which point continuing to pay non-workers 
will be a disaster.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <200204250229.g3P2T6G09549@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: stewards
...
>"OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than Pilot-3
...
>     If I were GMing today (alas), I'd most certainly present the PCs with 
>an NPC super-duper-steward.  That fellow would ask for more pay and be a bit 
>of a prima-donna to handle, but he would also fill the cabins with high 
>passengers and have high skilled, low wage NPC crewmen begging the PCs to 
>sign on.  Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he 
>needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to 
>insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.

  Why an NPC? It seems like a great excuse for not being
too useful in the firefights that the D&D'ers keep trying 
to provoke. It might even be combined with some social
skills or a problem-solving approach :)

  But if an NPC, then the occasional review of "Fawlty
Towers" should be considered!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 20:32:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 19:32:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person
> in 25 in the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of
> the database?

That's far better than the failure rate of many previous systems.


> It is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken
> as one in 25 of the members of the database will be misidentified.

If you'd ever done any image-recognition work, you'd know that a 4%
false-positive rate is extraordinarily good for "in the field" runs,
at an acceptable false-negative rate.

What you seem to be saying is that the system has a 4% false-negative
rate and a false-positive rate somewhere less than 0.1%.

If that's really what they meant, either the system designers are the
best geniuses this side of Andromeda, or they're snake-oil salesmen.
I'm betting on the latter, if they're really claiming what you say.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 21:35:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed Apr 24 20:35:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1ec0a$1bc04ca0$0b01a8c0@duck>

Thank you all for the answers.  Just a little more explanation:

While working on my Mire landgrab, I ran its configuration through Heaven
and Earth.  When I did that, I got a really interesting system, which
included three planets (in addition to Mire) with a type "6" atmosphere and
a > 1 hydrosphere.  Too bad the star is a measley K6 V!  (Actually it was
two planets and one moon, and the moon orbits one of these planets.)

Anyway, I really wanted to make the second planet (the one without the moon)
habitable (i.e. really cold, not frozen solid like I got in the first
place).  So I had to start fudging numbers.  Actually, I doubt that it would
still be warm enough where I put it, but I figure it should be close enough.
:-)

BTW, that is the one main frustration I had with H&E:  it forces the orbit
distances.  So, orbit 0 is *always* .2 AU, orbit 1 is *always* .4 AU.  This
means that for the smaller suns that nice warm planet from canon discription
is really frozen solid.  (Either that or the planet ends up being too close
and is an inferno with a "base" climate temperature of 45+ C.)  The program
has no way to tweak the orbital distance.  The only way I could simulate
that was to vary the size of the star until I got close to the temperatures
I needed.

In case anyone is actually curious as to what I have so far, the description
is at http://www.caddocourt.com/traveller/mire/ .  (If you go one level
higher to http://www.caddocourt.com/traveller you can see my Daryen page and
my other landgrab attempts.)  It is still very much a work in progress, but
it is starting to take shape.

Again, thanks for the help.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:06:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:06:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
References: <F2090Q5B71GmFs40SIq0000224a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC77F60.88D8F9C8@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
>
>    <snip> Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he
> needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to
> insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.
>
> PC - "Cilantro!??!  Just where in hades are we going to find cilantro on
> Roup?  Good Sweet Strephon, Melmotte, cilantro?!"
>
> Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop
> for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze
> baronne merde?"
>
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen

I've done this with a Vargar steward on my groups ship. Keeping her in fresh
meat is a real challenge at points. Especially since she insists on sharing it
all with the passengers and crew. Hadn't really thought of the ingredient angle.
Thanks Larsen.



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Sorry doesn't put thumbs on the hands, Marge.
                          -Homer Simpson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:09:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:09:59 2002
Subject: Beer (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <20020424123206.EE8A027A4A@mail.travellercentral.com> <008b01c1ebdb$e8dac0a0$e65d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CC77FE1.1580CF1F@premier.net>


Alan Bradley wrote:
> 
> > From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> > As a New Zealander I just had to make that dig. Can't have the Aussies
> > thinking they brew better beer than we.
> 
> Actually, the best beer in the world is brewed in Australia:  Guinness. : )
> 
> Most British and Irish beers brewed in Australia have higher alcohol
> contents than the original versions, to allow them to compete in the market
> here.

Ah, then 307 Ale would find a ready market in Australia:

http://www.tomsmithonline.com/lyrics/307ale.htm

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:25:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:25:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>

< snip debate on system accuracy >

More grist for the mill at:

http://www.visionics.com/faceit/faqs/recog.html

Keep in mind this is info from the company that sells the technology.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:30:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:30:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
In-Reply-To: <3CC77F60.88D8F9C8@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8ECD20F.58816%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/24/02 9:00 PM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

>> Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop
>> for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze
>> baronne merde?"
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> Larsen
> 
> I've done this with a Vargar steward on my groups ship. Keeping her in fresh
> meat is a real challenge at points. Especially since she insists on sharing it
> all with the passengers and crew. Hadn't really thought of the ingredient
> angle.
> Thanks Larsen.

I once ran an Aftermath campaign where the players were kept busy looking
for ingredients for an omelet by a deranged gourmand in return for some
penicillin.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:38:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:38:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <3CC73DFE.1550.56B779@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC785BE.E6ACFF88@premier.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> On 23 Apr 2002 at 13:04, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> > The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST
> > series is that everyone is an officer.
> 
> That didn't bother me in the slightest, seeing as there were often
> engineering officers doing what we'd have ratings employed at.
> Obviously the later Star Trek period saw a lot of 'job inflation' in
> the Federation. Probably some bureaucrat thought it'd help morale or
> recruitment if everyone in Starfleet got to be an officer.

I suspect that the rank inflation of the ST universe (and many other
fictional universes) has more to do with the observation that Robert
Heinlein (adroitly bringing the thread back to its title) made in _Job:
A Comedy of Justice_ that civilians automatically seem to equate
themselves with officers, regardless of the actual position the
civilians in question hold in the employment and/or social hierarchy.

One of the things that annoyed me most about Twilight: 2000 (second
edition) is that, according to the chargen rules, I did not exist. 
According to T2K (2e), only Military Intelligence officers could perform
interrogator duties; enlisted MI types were treated as equivalent to
Support branch (i.e., mechanics and the like).  As an enlisted
interrogator (MOS 97E4P) who currently has 18+ years of experience in
the field, I was (understandably, I think) quite put out by this chargen
rule, especially since very few MI commissioned officers in the US Army
_ever_ learn how to interrogate prisoners of war.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:46:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:46:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500
References: <147.d7848aa.29f899cd@aol.com> <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20020424223740.A14385@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
>
> Try being allergic to cig smoke.

That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
<http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.

Perhaps you're slightly asthmatic, or have other allergies which smoke
in generl triggers?


-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I have a love for coding.  I have a love for staying up for days at a
time living off of Tea and Cigarettes, doing nothing but wearing the
letters off of the keys in front of my computer.  My bills have a love
for being paid on time.                                 --Jace of Fuse!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:55:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:55:28 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:07:21PM -0700
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250925440.30393-100000@vcsweb.com> <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020424224232.B14385@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:07:21PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine they'd
> just draft you anyway and force you to quit.

I'd claim smoking is part of my philosophy (i.e. religion).
C.S. Lewis smoked, J.R.R. Tolkien smoked, G.K. Chesterton smoked, and
frankly I care more about the dust which clung to their heals than all
the words and thoughts of the Koops and Kesslers of this world.

Not that this has anything to do with military service.  Not being an
addict, I have gone for quite extended periods of time without
tobacco, when the sitution warranted.  No doubt I'll do so again.  So
I could quite cheerfully go into the bush for awhile, come out,
shower, shave, light a nice pipe and relax.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd' - Ian Lamb, age 3.5

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 23:03:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Wed Apr 24 22:03:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
Message-ID: <3CC74587.16615.16FC24A@localhost>

--Message-Boundary-12821
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body

heres the second in my series of conversions


--Message-Boundary-12821
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-disposition: inline
Content-description: Attachment information.

The following section of this message contains a file attachment
prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system,
you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

   ---- File information -----------
     File:  TL12 200,000-ton Kokirrak-class Dreadnought.htm
     Date:  24 Apr 2002, 23:52
     Size:  6613 bytes.
     Type:  HTML-text

--Message-Boundary-12821
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--Message-Boundary-12821--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 23:18:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 22:18:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> http://www.visionics.com/faceit/faqs/recog.html
> 
> Keep in mind this is info from the company that sells the technology.

Yep.  It's actually worse than I thought.  On internal comparison
tests on a standardised database, its best error sum is above 1%.  A
reasonable rule of thumb in image recognition, is that in typical
deployed conditions error rates (of both types) go up by at least an
order of magnitude over standardised test data.  That's assuming
no-one is actually trying to fool the system!

That means that if you want 90% detection of known criminals or
troublemakers, you'll have to put up with misidentifying *at least* 5%
of the general public as people in the database.  A rather small
shopping mall would have say 10000 people passing through in a day,
that's about 500 false alarms.

Worse still, the 'tails' of feature set detection lengthen in
realistically noisy data, which means that reducing the threshold has
less effect on error rates in real conditions than in standardized
data.  So while reducing the threshold by 5% may halve the
false-positive rate in test data, it may only reduce false-positives
by 30% in real data.  So you get double-hit by real noise: Not only do
your error rates go up, but your ability to reduce errors by reducing
the threshold for detection goes down.

Ignoring the likelihood that people are going to deliberately spoof
the system, let's say you want a false-positive rate of less than 1%
(100 innocent members of the public bothered per shopping mall per
day).  Judging by their own graphs, I'd be very surprised to see 50%
effectiveness at detecting known troublemakers in real conditions.

Including the fact that some of the people in the database *will* try
to avoid detection, I'd put the hit rate at more like 20%.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 23:36:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 24 22:36:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com> <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>

> Judging by their own graphs, I'd be very surprised to see 50%
> effectiveness at detecting known troublemakers in real conditions.
>
> Including the fact that some of the people in the database *will* try
> to avoid detection, I'd put the hit rate at more like 20%.
>

Given the current state of the art, how long do you think it will be before
the performance of this system is able to live up to the hype?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 00:10:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 24 23:10:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> >The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people
> >having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.
> Great. Give people one more reason not to reenlist. When I was in the
> Marines the smoking rate was easily over 50%, at least among grunts. This

Well, I wouldn't want to be in the field with smokers. It has no good
points, and many bad.

Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even farther with image
intensifiers. Also, you might want not to leave much stuff around, which
is quite hard if you have to remember collecting everything you smoke.

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 00:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Wed Apr 24 23:14:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <3CC6F5FF.5070407@telocity.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
 <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>
 <200204240037330379.D4645864@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3CC6F5FF.5070407@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <200204250108350264.D9A71D60@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/24/2002 at 1:14 PM Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>I can think of a couple of "easy" fixes, first if you provided a single 
>column format, then it wouldn't really matter if the page length 
>exceeded the screen height, as I would only have to scroll down as I 
>read.  Alternatively, and a better (but most likely more difficult 
>approach)  would be to reduce the page lengths by about half, then each 
>page would fit on the screen in comfortable reading resolution.
>
>Hunter, I don't know if either approach would qualify as easy, but 
>consideration for something like that would be most appreciated by this 
>member of your market.

Hmm. Its something I will definately look into. The main problem I see=
 though is we would have to layout the PDF twice for each edition. once for=
 a 'print' version and once for an 'on-screen' version. I'll have to talk=
 to Steve and see what he thinks it might add time-wise on his part to=
 handle it.

It would also be an interesting question to pose to those who buy the PDFs,=
 to see if there is a larger preference one way or another.

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 00:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 23:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com> <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020425163025.A12453@freeman.little-possums.net>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> Given the current state of the art, how long do you think it will be
> before the performance of this system is able to live up to the
> hype?

Same answer that I'd give to any other prediction about near future
technology; fusion power, paperless office, a machine able to
understand natural spoken language, house-cleaning robots, generally
available space tourism, and widespread acceptance of video phones and
electric cars: "20 years" :)

(Of course, most of these were "20 years" away in the 1960s...)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 01:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 00:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020420102803.C4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020420102803.C4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020425175119.A12598@freeman.little-possums.net>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Let 't' be the number of orbits (or fractional orbits).  Then
>   theta = 2 arctan ((1+e) tan(pi t) / sqrt(1-e^2)).  (I hope)

It looks like my hopes were dashed.  That's what I get for doing
orbital dynamics on an empty stomach!  The (hopefully *this* time)
correct formula is

pi t = arctan (sqrt(1-e^2) tan (theta/2) / (1+e))
       - (e sqrt(1-e^2) sin theta) / 2(1 + e cos theta) 

(If you forget the second line like I did, you get my incorrect
formula above).  Unfortunately this expression can't be simply solved
for theta like the previous one.  You can easily find the time for a
given position, but that's not very useful :)  You'll need to use a
numerical method to find the position at a given time.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020423183217.00ac19d8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEFBHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Jimmy Simpson wrote :

> IMHO, there was precisely 1 good episode of Galactica 
> 1980, "The Return of Starbuck".

Was that about a newly-reopened coffe franchise ?

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:47:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:47:57 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8eb83b1f99b@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAAEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :
> A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more
> people living on public assistance.  (It may not
> be 50%, but it will depend on what the level is set at).

I think the 200AD "Judge Dredd" series shows what such a society
would turn into.

(200AD has always been very good SF IMO, even if some of the
stories and characters were relatively puerile, it does explore
the issues, both social and technological like SF is supposed
to ).

Not only would people not work, but because of the lack of
workers, more and more things would have to be automated,
companies would find it harder to make a profit, and as part of
the circle, the number of available jobs would actually reduce to
the point where having more than one would become illegal.

> What is more, in approached like this the money is
> considered a fundamental "right".  This creates an
> entire class of people who think they have a right
> to expect to be supported.

This has happened in many "western" countries including New
Zealand, England, and Holland to name the ones that I'm
personally familiar with.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:50:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:50:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RPGs
In-Reply-To: <95.1b594c7e.29f6ba34@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :
> tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> > GDW, Chaosium, WRG, TSR, Flying Buffalo, Steve Jackson,
> > Steve Curtis, and many other primarily wargaming
> > companies were all in the process of adding fantasy
> > wargaming and roleplaying systems of various forms
> > to their wargames, largely due to the popularity
> > of "Lord of the Rings" at the time. These were based
> > originally on personalization details for their army
> > "generals" and "special figures", and also on the trend
> > toward small scale "skirmish" wargames where the individual
> > figures were heavily personalized and even given "character",
> > of which "Chainmail" was just one, and not the most
> > influential either.
>
> You've obviously done considerable research if you
> know of Steve Curtis -- few people do nowadays.

It's not research, just memory. I was heavily involved in
wargaming at the time.
I still have a lot of boardganes and few thousand lead figures in
various scales.

I have a letter from Steve's dad telling me of his unfortunate
death somewhere.
I had ordered another copy of his Old West Skirmish rules, as my
original had become pretty heavily worn (they were only
gestetners or photocopies of the typed manuscripts at the the
time, no fancy printing like you get these days <grin>), along
with a new pair of d20's, and his dad filled the order and gave
me the news.

> >While I'm not going to deny D&D's importance, it was not, IMO,
> >neccessary for the development of roleplaying.
>
> I'm not as certain of that as you are . . . let us
> agree to disagree.

Certainy. I was, after all, merely expressing my opinion.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:53:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:53:58 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC74249.2877.6779B3@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are
> by officers in the Captain to Colonel range, with
> the next group being those run by Generals, though
> these are quite often one General  replacing another
> and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have
> to do more reading, methinks.

You will, a coup in one of the West Inddian isles (Grenada?) was
led by a Corporal, IIRC

And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424.145416.-149337.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> Well, I hate to butt in here, but I'm a prime
> example of the above conversation.
>
> I'm disabled as you all know, pulling in roughly
> $17.5k via S.S. and my disability pension.

Just to show that "tolerable" is definitely relative:

What you are are earning on your benefits, is, when translated to
New Zealand dollars, almost _twice_ both the average wage, and
twice what a family of _six_ would be expected to live on in New
Zealand on the unemployment benefit.

It is more than what a non-senior teacher would earn and about
what a policeman would earn here after a year or so on the job.
It is approximately 1.25 times what I earned as an NCO avionics
technician in the Air Force

However, outside of a few high cost areas lke New York city and
the Silcon Valley environs, the cost of living in New Zealand is
not appreciably lower than that in the US (at least according to
my sister who has recently returned from  the US), so what (you
seem to be implying) constitutes hardship for you, would be
considered moderately well to do in New Zealand.

Of course, I'm sure someone from Russia could point out they
could live like a king on 17.5K USD p.a.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 03:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr 25 02:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8A@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Pitt [mailto:frankie@mundens.gen.nz]
> Sent: 25 April 2002 09:57
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] RE: Bayonets
> 
> 
> Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> > Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are
> > by officers in the Captain to Colonel range, with
> > the next group being those run by Generals, though
> > these are quite often one General  replacing another
> > and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have
> > to do more reading, methinks.
> 
> You will, a coup in one of the West Inddian isles (Grenada?) was
> led by a Corporal, IIRC
> 
> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.
> 
> Frankie

And IIRC Idi Amin was a Sergeant

Matt 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:12:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <200204241458.EXD05545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20425.005842.9d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn says
> <snip about the "smart" camera system>
>
> The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
> the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
> Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
> to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
> serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
> incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
> be.
>
> Factor in the following:
>
> a.  Criminal warrant issued, but no picture
> b.  Criminal warrant issued, but not entered into database in 
> a timely manner
> c.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
> found not guilty, data not updated
> d.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
> does his time, is released, and data not updated

e. Criminal warrant issued, data entry goof and innocent person's data
attached.

This happens with depressing regularity with systems that are used by
local police and sheriffs departments to put out wants & warrants info
nationwide. 

Several incidents were reported in comp.risks over the years. One of
the problems is that far to many of the systems that local deparetments
feed the data from *other* departments into have no provisions for
receiving *corrections*.

At least one person had to get a signed, notarized letter from the
department that had issued the original erroneus report and carry it
with him when travelling as otherwise any time he got stopped for
*anything*, he'd wind up in the local jail waiting for their attempts
to arrange for him to be picked up and transferred to come back with a
"Huh? We don't want that guy..."

The letter merely changes things so that he can get the department
that's picked him up to actually make a direct *call* to the original
department, and it has enough info that even if the get a new clerk on
the other end, he only loses an hour or two instead of a day or two.

And in spite of the hassles, it's just plain *not* worth trying to sue,
because he'd have to travel *back* to East Podunk (or whereever they
picked him up) for the trial...

> I bet the actual error rate is over 50 percent.  Just go on 
> the web and look at the state of Maryland's sex offender 
> registry.  They state up front that they can't keep it up to 
> date.  They don't really know where these people live.  I 
> spoke to someone in that department, and they said that the 
> only way to find out accurate information about a particular 
> individual is to call and ask for an actual check - they go 
> out and find the individual in question.

Yeah. It's no better with the "private" databases the departments
assemble from the stuff they get off the "wire". 

> The culture and infrastructure for systems like these to be 
> near 100 percent accurate do not exist.

Well, some day, an "important" person will get hit *badly* by one, and
maybe get Congress to pass a law that will attempt to require more
checking of data.

OBTrav should be obvious. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:15:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:15:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B88@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <20425.012317.8s4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>  And
>> who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
>> crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or 
>> just those
>> detained by the police at some previous time?  What about 
>> those who have
>> already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going 
>> to be harassed
>> by the police.
>
> I would expect that the idea was to only inclued persistent
> shoplifters/vandals/muggers/car thieves etc
> And it is hardly and great difficulty to flag each record with an expiry
> date.

No, but in the real world, such databases *aren't* designed with any
such flag. Which bites many innocent people every year.

> So upon a criminal coming before the courts for the umpteenth time for
> such offences the court can order that their 'mugshot' be placed on the
> system for a specified length of time. If they stop offending then after
> that time they are removed from the database.

And if the wrong photo gets placed in the file, the innocent person
will have a fight to get it removed. If the database is shared with
*other* areas, they will have to fight in each and every place they
visit. 

And a private citizen can't *afford* that sort of fight. Which is why
such systems are a bad idea. When they screw up, the effects on the
innocent are *way* out of proportion.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:18:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:18:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <20425.011146.9J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]
>
>> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they' 
>> wanted to trial in 
>> the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras were linked 
>> to a database 
>> containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to 
>> alert the local 
>> police when a 'non-desirable' tried entering the city center 
>> (note; in 
>> England, shopping centers/malls can exclude people for 
>> illegal behviour, so 
>> this is not considered a violation of their rights).
>> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
>> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of 
>> 10,000 bodies 
>> would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals 
>> free to go about 
>> their crimes...
>
> Ummm, not quite...
>
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

No. 

The 4% error rate means that 4% of the people scanned will be
misidentied. So 4% of the people who don't have pictures in the
database would be mistakenly identifed as people in the database AND 4%
of the people scanned who *were* in the database would fail to be
identified.

Thing is, if there are only 100 people in the database, and 10,000
people scanned (and we will assume that the 100 in the database are
part of the total scanned) you get these results:

9,900 people not in database. 
4% false positives = 396

100 people in database
4% false negatives = 4

So, the end results are:

9504 correctly identified as not in database
 396 incorrectly identified as being in database
  96 correctly identified as being in database
   4 incorrectly identified as being in database.

Which means that out of 492 people "tagged", only 96 will be correct
IDs. That means that a bit over *80%* of those tagged will be incorrect
identifications. Which is a *totally* unacceptable error rate.

This is why they *don't* do generalized testing for things like AIDS.
The ratio of infected to uninfected is so *low* that the number of
false positives would *massively* overwhelm the true positives.

And the problem others were talking about is the entirely *independent*
problem of whether or not the folks correctly IDed as being in the
database are actually criminals. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC785BE.E6ACFF88@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CC884F5.17674.53C3CD@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 23:27, John Groth wrote:

> One of the things that annoyed me most about Twilight: 2000 (second
> edition) is that, according to the chargen rules, I did not exist. 
> According to T2K (2e), only Military Intelligence officers could perform
> interrogator duties; enlisted MI types were treated as equivalent to
> Support branch (i.e., mechanics and the like).  As an enlisted
> interrogator (MOS 97E4P) who currently has 18+ years of experience in
> the field, I was (understandably, I think) quite put out by this chargen
> rule, especially since very few MI commissioned officers in the US Army
> _ever_ learn how to interrogate prisoners of war.

As I was a grunt when I struck T2K 1e I didn't notice this, though I do 
remember being unimpressed by that on general principles. However T2k 
2e's insistence that military intelligence types take a -1 initiative 
rankled.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <20020424223740.A14385@4dv.net>
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500
Message-ID: <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 22:37, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
> >
> > Try being allergic to cig smoke.
> 
> That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
> <http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.

Yeah, right. Sure it doesn't. From what I've seen over the years just 
about anything is allergic to someone out there.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3CC8870B.29806.5BEAE4@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 9:09, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even farther with image
> intensifiers. Also, you might want not to leave much stuff around, which
> is quite hard if you have to remember collecting everything you smoke.

There's nothing quite like some smoker lighting up at night to give 
your position away. About the only way to hide all the light is to 
smoke in the sleeping bay of a full-overhead protected trench or 
bunker, with a blanket, sack or jecket over the enterance.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir
 we got trouble .
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500 <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> On 24 Apr 2002 at 22:37, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
> > >
> > > Try being allergic to cig smoke.
> >
> > That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
> > <http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.
>
> Yeah, right. Sure it doesn't. From what I've seen over the years just
> about anything is allergic to someone out there.
>

Now Rupert, The American Tobacco Institute has spent a lot of money
proving that cigarettes are good for you and you want us to believe on the
basis of your anecdotal evidence that they could cause someone a problem?
Get real buddy!


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20425.012810.2T3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in
> the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database? It
> is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken as one in 25
> of the members of the database will be misidentified... If there was only
> one picture in the database is there a 4% chance that any given person will
> be identified as it? Or much more likely, if there was only one person in
> the database 4% of the time the system would report 'no match' when
> analysing a picture of that individual.

Sorry, failure rates work *both* ways. There *will* be false matches,
not merely failures to make matches that should have been made.

Properly, they should have given the rates for false positives and for
false negatives. But the folks marketing such things don't want to
mention false positives. And without knowing the rates for both, as
well as the ratio of the total population to the number of people in
the database, you can't run numbers on this to properly evaluate it.

In another post, I did a rough evaluation with 4% error rate for both
positives and negatives. Note that for any given false positive rate,
the *number* of errors grows in direct proprtion to the size of the
population. If you scan twice as many people you get twice as many
errors. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:18:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:18:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <3CC7743B.26719.1EA397@localhost>
Message-ID: <20425.013434.5F0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 24 Apr 2002 at 10:58, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
>> Tod Glenn says
>> <snip about the "smart" camera system>
>> 
>> The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
>> the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
>> Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
>> to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
>> serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
>> incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
>> be.
>
> How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
> least keep the false positive rate down.

You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
have to be present at the trial *there*. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:21:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:21:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <20020425074906.B11272@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20425.015908.4k0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
>> of the period.
>
> Oops, it's the other way around :)
>
> (2 pi / T)^2 = G M / R^3
> so T^2 = k R^3, where k = (2 pi)^2 / (G M)

Tell the folks who printed the stronomy Quick Study reference card I
checked it on!

Aha! The text has it right, the formula below it has it wrong!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:24:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:24:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250924020.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20425.013633.5Q9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

That's better than the cartoon I have where an obvious Soviet guard
type is asking "Why are your papers in order?"

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:27:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:27:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Question on planetary orbits
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424234029.00ab4ef0@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <20425.033231.2x1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
>  >of the period.
>
> Keplers third law is that the square of the period is proportional to the 
> cube of the distance.

Blasted reference I was using had the law right in the text, but had
the exponents swapped in the formula. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:30:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:30:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  All of the above is interesting. But not my main Traveller theme part.
> For example <composing a reply to a prior msg with this topic> The entire
> premise above is dealing with the measurements of the micro$haft style of
> disks and formatting.

Actually, it's the method ised by floppy *and* hard disk controllers
for just about everything. GCR and all the rest of that was only used
by Apple and Commodore. Everybody else used the single chip FDC chips
that came out starting in 1977. And the similarly integrated HDC setups
that came out later.

The "low level" formatting is standard across just about all the
computer industry. The only variables are things like sector size and
number of sectors per track.

Dig up a spec sheet for any floppy controller chip and you'll see the
same info as to the things that can be varied. 

MS is using a format set by IBM and the "low level" stuff goes backk to
the original *mainframe* floppy disks (and hard drives) developed in
the 1960s.

I've got the manuals for an old mainframe hard drive, and the
controller level formatting options aren't that different from what
modern hard and floppy drives use. 

The Commodore setup really *is* an oddbal and *very* minority format.

> i use Commodore exclusively. First we measure in
> blocks 4 = 1kb. The single sided drives read thes disk at 664 C= blocks.

No, at the *hardware* level, it's still sectors and tracks. You just
have thungs like variable numbers of sectors per track, based on how
close to the cebter of the disk you are (I went into a lot of this with
a friend who had a VIC 20 and later a C-64 when we were trying to see
if we could reas each other's disks somehow).

Those "blocks" are equivalent to "clusters" on PC drives. And they are
a product of the OS, not the hardware. If you check into the low level
details, you'll find that the blocks are part of the *logical*
formatting (how the OS groups stuff and addresses it) not the
*physical* formatting (which is the sectors and tracks, encoded upon
the media). 

*If* Commodore had used FM and MFM encoding on the disks, rather than
GCR (basicly a different way of modulating the signal that represents
the bitstream on the media), then all it'd take to read a C-64 disk on
a PC would be some fancy software. 

As it is, it's like trying to read a Beta tape on a VHS machine. Even
if you feed the tape past the heads, the signal format is wrong. The
data encoded on the tapes is the *same* (NTSC video). 

But once you extract the bitstream, the floppy controller references
that as sectors and tracks. On a PC, we have access at that level. With
a 1541, the CPU in the 1541 has access at that level. You only have
access at the OS level (blocks, files etc) unless you can change the
code being run by the CPU in the drive.

>  Now then all tat said. We have talked about some converting things. using
> what I know which is a samttering of the techy stuff for the Commodore
> world. i have tools that allow translation on my system. Allowing me to
> translate from Pet to Ascii and back again. So that part is covered for
> text. I also have tools that allow scaling of JPGs and GIFs. These at
> videocam. That allow for my screen size. I have tools to pas along to the
> windoze and Amiga users that allow the text translation for my preferred
> DT <Desk Top> system Geos. Even the ability to make .D64 image files for
> the emulator users.

Again, you are conflating a bunch of *independent* things:

1. media type/encoding (ie what the data is stored on and how the bits
   are encoded onto the media)
   
   Examples: holes punched in paper tape, holes punched in any of
   several types of punch card, bits coded onto magnetic tape in any of
   several ways, bits on floppy disks in GCR/FM/MFM. Bits on Had drives
   in FM/MFM/RLL/ERLL

2. Media formatting (tracks, sectors, etc)

   Examples: tapes formatted with Unit, record, block, etc marks
   Disks formatted into sectors, tracks, cylinders

3. OS formatting (files, directories, etc)

   Examples: different directory & file structures in TRS-DOS (at least
   5 versions I know of that are incompatible with each other), MS-DOS,
   Mac, Apple II (at least 2 OSes), CP/M, Unix, etc

4. File formatting (how the bits and bytes inside the file represent
   the data)

   Examples: Wordstar, WordPerfect, Scripsit, MS Word, PerfectWriter
   All word processors, all encoding text with formatting
   instructions, all available for MS-DOS, all using different
   formats.

5. output device & formatting (how the data is presented to the user)
   
   Examples: fixed pitch printer, no backspace/overstrike.
             fixed pitch printer with backspace/overstrike
             proportional font printer
             loadable font printer
             "graphics" printer (ie anything that prints stuff as a
               "image fed by the computer)
   All hardcopy output devices, with different sorts of inputs and
   different output capabilities.
    

I'm saying that for the most part level 4 will be uniform. Everybody
will use or be able to translate to/from the standard Imperial file
formats.

The limits will be most a case of not being able to handle some formats
because your equipment isn't up to it.

Probably levels of difficult:

fixed pitch text in local alphabet
fixed pitch text in multiple alphabets
formatted text in local alphabets
formatted text in multiple alphabets

Still images (ie low res pixel graphics)
still images (fax/wirephoto)
still images (photos)

Audio (with various levels as bit rate and mono/stereo are added)

Video

Holo

>  OK what I am looking at on this topic is the same type of things in tols
> and utils for converting different standards and platforms in the 3I.
> Based and projecting from the exisitng styles we have now. Putting that
> into the CT game.

Depends on whether you are receiving a *signal* or media. 

If you are receiving media, you need a reader and one or more levels of
concerter to get the files out. Once you have the files, it's fairly
simple to have software take it the rest of the way. 

My list above dealt (mostly) with media.

If you have a signal, the levels are similar but different. 

Look up the OSI model for one way to break that sort of thing down.

The important thing to realize is that at *any* level of a properly
designed system, you can swap the stuff that deal with that level out
and replace it with something that handles it differently, and not
affect things much.

In fact, the C-64 is better suited demonstrating that than most
systems. Compare the way you read/write from a tape, a 1541, the
IEEE-488 based Commodore business systems drive that uses the same
floppies and format as the 1541, a hard drive etc.

As I recall, for reading/writing a *file* all you'd change is the unit
number or some such. 

So the problems faced by the players be a matter of which levels things
are incompatible at.

Wrong media (cassette instead of disk? Wrong size disk?)

Wrong encoding (GCR vs MFM or the like. Or 5 channel versus 8-channel
paper tape)

Wrong formatting (wrong size sectors? Wrong number of sector, tracks,
whatever) 

Wrong OS? (A PC formatted floppy written by OS/2 isn't much use with Windows)

Wrong file format (It's in Wordstar, they have wordPerfect)

Or a combination of the above if you are really feeling evil.

And to be *supremely* evil, when the get the data, it may be in the
wrong language. Or be a picture taken by a species that has a different
spectral sensitivity (ie, we see red to vilet. They see short IR to
Blue. Or Orange to near UV) 

That last is fun if you have a decent graphics program or if you
understand how BMPs or other non-compressed image formats store data.
Removing the color(s) they don't see is fairly easy if you are a
programmer geek. Shifting the colors is a bit harder. *Adding* the
color they don't see is harder.

Ever try recognizing something from a color IR picture? <eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
References: <20020425052154.B00C227A9C@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>

Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
very, very large capital ships?

I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
spinal mounts.

I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
sharing.

By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

Thanks, all.

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir  we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC898A7.17942.A0B903@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 7:05, alan spik wrote:

> Now Rupert, The American Tobacco Institute has spent a lot of money
> proving that cigarettes are good for you and you want us to believe on the
> basis of your anecdotal evidence that they could cause someone a problem?
> Get real buddy!

Rule #1: Follow the money.

I have no monetary interest in getting people to stop smoking, they 
have lots of interest in getting as many people smoking as much tobacco 
as possible.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:03:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:03:58 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC898A8.8362.A0BA58@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 6:36, David Smart wrote:

> Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> very, very large capital ships?
> 
> I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
> spinal mounts.
> 
> I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
> sharing.
> 
> By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
> TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

Hmm. Wasn't there an Auri-Tech research vessel around that would fill 
the bill?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:07:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:07:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <20425.013434.5F0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <3CC7743B.26719.1EA397@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC898A7.24874.A0B7D7@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 1:34, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
> > least keep the false positive rate down.
> 
> You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
> entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
> take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
> have to be present at the trial *there*. 

Well sue the originating organisation. Then sue 'em for libel in that 
they spread false infermation about you.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
Message-ID: <F1783GykBbKP7Ie8tlM000034bd@hotmail.com>

From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>

     "heres the second in my series of conversions"


Mr. Cat,

     Bravo, sir!  Well done!  Your conversions have been superb, hence the 
near total lack of comment about them on the List!
     Please enjoy the TML's Black Hole of Quality.  Could you drop the rest 
of us a postcard and let us know what that place is like?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S.  Would any of the more artistically inclined members of the List care 
to design a "TML Black Hole of Quality" medallion?  I thinking something the 
size of a gaudy soup plate on a crepe paper ribbon.  Hmmm, perhaps a simple 
lapel pin would be more appropriate...


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (silverberg)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Spacedoc v1.2 or later
Message-ID: <000801c1ec58$66b74ad0$720b1ed4@tyrell001>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I am looking for the above program or similar. Unfortunately all the
links I have found so far are obsolete. Can any one help me find this
program?
 
Many Thanks
 
Regards
 
Silverberg
 
 

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I am looking for the above program or similar. =
Unfortunately
all the links I have found so far are obsolete. Can any one help me find =
this
program?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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font-family:Arial'>Many Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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font-family:Arial'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <F1783GykBbKP7Ie8tlM000034bd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEHCDMAA.tml@downport.com>

The new diet craze! Put on a black hole lapel pin and everyone will think
you're eating when you aren't getting a single bite!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade

> P.S.  Would any of the more artistically inclined members of the
> List care
> to design a "TML Black Hole of Quality" medallion?  I thinking
> something the
> size of a gaudy soup plate on a crepe paper ribbon.  Hmmm,
> perhaps a simple
> lapel pin would be more appropriate...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22715@USCHM203>

>I was at Benning when that happened. The common reaction was "who cares" 
>and the clubs on VD Drive never bothered to check IDs.

You were lucky. The Marines were a lot stricter. And at about the same time
they pretty much tore down Court Street, which was where all the good (or
bad if you were an MP)bars were.
So you had about 10,000 or young Marines who were able to enjoy a few beers
one weekend, and not able to the next. Fights and disciplinary violations
actually increased.
I agree that there are situations where smoking is a bad idea, but a blanket
ban on smoking would do more harm than good, in my opinion. 99% of
servicemen are not going to be in a position where it matters.

>Having addicts in the trenches does not aid 
in the mission.

I don't think jonesing for a cigarette is the same as having a heroin
withdrawal, and aside from VC with good noses in very specific
circumstances, I fail to see how smoking has any effect on combat
effectiveness. Yes, it reduces lung capacity and endurance, but those 50% +
smokers in my unit could still run six miles the same as the non-smokers.
Obviously, common sense would preclude smoking on opreations where stealth
was required. There doesn't need to be any sweeping edict affecting the
entire Army.

For the record, there were periods in the field where no smoking was allowed
for weeks. There was grumbling, but no one went into a disabling nicotine
fit.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <B8ED52C0.5887D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/25/02 1:56 AM, Frank Pitt at frankie@mundens.gen.nz wrote:

> 
> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.

Austrian Corporal. And I would call it a coup when you are elected to ofice
by popular vote.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F235nUTBnxARhnHcWhl00004133@hotmail.com>

>From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>
>Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
>very, very large capital ships?

Half a dozen or so and more hiding in my backpocket (i.e. on my HD).

>I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
>spinal mounts.

Is a 406 Gj Meson gun fitted to a 900'000 dt Dreadnough enough? If not I 
have a 2 Mdt design on my hardrive (but that is streching things a bit).

>I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
>sharing.

All you can eat at Dimash Starships:
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/starships.html

>By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
>TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

Spreadsheets availible at request for most designs.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <019901c1ec5f$4ae870c0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 4:56 AM
Subject: RE: [TML] RE: Bayonets


> Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> > Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are
> > by officers in the Captain to Colonel range, with
> > the next group being those run by Generals, though
> > these are quite often one General  replacing another
> > and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have
> > to do more reading, methinks.
>
> You will, a coup in one of the West Inddian isles (Grenada?) was
> led by a Corporal, IIRC
>
> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.
>
> Frankie
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:46:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:46:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F251utSgcOrBLSAQV6u0000a9dd@hotmail.com>

I don't know if this message showed up correctly so I'm reposting it (Davied 
Smart didn't see it on the digest). My applogies if you have allready seen 
it.

------------

>Mr. Holmstrm,
>
>I'm a member of the TML and I recently ran across an old email you sent out 
>proposing rules for the building of chem-det lasers using Bruce Macintosh's 
>"MCS" starship combat rules.
>
>If you're still playing Traveller and it isn't an imposition on you, could 
>you tell me if you ever finished a final draft of your rules?

Ohh, I'm still playing Traveller/reading the TML. The short answer to
your question is "sort of yes" but the long answer is more interesting.
I tried to pick apart the NukeDet tables in FFS and the warhead table
in MCS and reverse engineer the Frag and ChemDet warheads using MCS and
FFS. The major problems are that the ChemDet and Frag warheads mentioned in 
MCS might be handwaved and lacks stats (mass/vol/price). More details on 
NukeDets in FFS1/2 would also help. The discussion below assumes that the 
reader knows FFS and MCS. If I'm unclear somewhere just yell.

Most of my argument uses this table from MCS:
>Type                    Pen:Damage     Defence Nuclear Det-Laser            
>                                            TL15    19:13           -7
>                TL13    18:12           -7
>                TL10    17:11           -7
>Chemical Det-Laser-13   13:10           -6
>Fragmentation KKMSIM-10 10:14           -3

If the ChemDets are supposed to have a PEN calue of 13 this means that it 
must have a FFS2 DV of at least 21 (assuming PEN = 10*DAM => MCS DAM 7). 
This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking about a 
X-ray laser to it needs to be at least TL13. MCS states that NukeDets has a 
penetration value of 20 times the FFS2 damage value (instead of the usual 
PEN = 10xDAM). Further it states that the warhead (as a whole) has twice the 
damage compared to the listed damage (per beam) in FFS2. This can be used to 
determine the yield of the NukeDets used in the MCS missile table. Note that 
all the warheads mass around 500 kg.

TL     Yield    Damage  Wt       Vol
10     100 kt    80     540 kg   270 l
13     200 kt    94     500 kg   250 l
15     500 kt   113     500 kg   250 l

From the PD modifiers in MCS I drew the conclusion that ChemDets detonate 
closer to their target than DetNukes and that Frags detonates even closer. 
At shorter distances the missile will be easier to hit but this works both 
ways. Every -1 on defence makes the missile twice as hard to hit (based on 
PD RoF modifiers).

Warhead      Eff.
NukeDet       1
ChemDet       2
Frag         16

To bring the damage of the ChemDet warhead up to DAM 10 we need to hit the 
target 3 times (compared with 2 for NukeDets)using 40Mj laser pulses. Since 
the ChemDet detonates at a more efficient distance we only have to use 67% 
as many lasing rods as on a NukeDet.

Here is where we run out of information. How many lasing rods are there in a 
NukeDet? Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow 
up) or something more powerful (that does)? Can a lasing rod (as used in 
NukeDets) also be used with chemicals? What is the cost/weight/volume of the 
lasing rod and tracking telescope?


There are two ways to handle this.

1. Assume that all warheads in the MCS missile list are 500 kg/250 l. The 
cost of the ChemDet warhead is anybody's guess but say 100 kCr. The ChemDet 
with PEN13 and DAM10 will represent the baseline warhead and can be modified 
as follows.

Modify weight and volume based on Tech Level.

TL  Wt and Vol mod
13   1.00
16   0.67

By changing the power and number of the lasing rods different warheads can 
be constructed. Change the PEN and DAM values and then apply the weight, 
volume and price modifiers. Each extra point can be added to either DAM or 
PEN but not to both.  Points can also be transferred (e.g. PEN+1/DAM-1) at 
no cost.

Bonus*   Wt, Vol and Price mod
+1          1.5  (1.46)
+2          2.0  (2.15)
+3          3.0  (3.16)
+4          4.5  (4.65)
+5          7.0  (6.81)
+6         10.0  (10.0)
For negative modifiers divide instead.

Examples

A TL11 ChemDet warhead (-2).
Pen = 13 - 1 = 12.
Dam = 10 - 1 = 9.
Wt = 500 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 500 kg.
Vol = 250 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 250 l.
Price = 100 / 2.0 = 50 kCr.

A TL13 Heavy ChemDet Warhead (+3).
Pen = 13 + 2 = 15.
Dam = 10 + 1 = 11.
Wt = 500 * 3.0 = 1500 kg.
Vol = 500 * 3.0 = 750 l.
Price = 100 * 3.0 = 300 kCr.


A +3 ChemDet warhead and a ring of imperial intervention is all a traveller 
needs. ;) The modifiers are based on the 6*log10 damage scale of MCS and the 
Chemical Lasing Cartridge efficiency table. I believe this gives reasonable 
numbers but one might want to differentiate the TL table a bit.


2. Running the numbers of a 500 kg warhead using standard components.

A 40Mj 10 cm X-ray focal array with 10'000 km effective range at TL13.
Focal area  : 0.007854 m2.
Focal vol   : 0.000314 m3.
Focal mass  : 0.314 kg.
Focal price : 31.4 Cr.

Input energy  : 61.54 Mj.
Cartridge wt  : 30.77 kg.
Cartridge vol : 3.127 l.
I can't find the listed price for CLC cartridges in FFS2 so I use FFS1 
figures instead.
Cartridge price : 1850 Cr.

The weight limitation allows 16 cartridges to be fitted.
Warhead Wt    : 497.3 kg.
Warhead Vol   : 55.06 l.
Warhead Price : 30 kCr.

The result a very cheap and compact warhead but I doubt that 16 cartridges 
are enough since a NukeDet probably has more than 24 lasing rods. Building 
the thing with TL15 will allow for 21 cartridges and TL16 gets us 35 (mainly 
due to better cartridges). To be completely legal the warhead would need a 
beampointer which adds ~1000 kg at TL13. With a beampointer it is hard to 
see how any of the beams could miss at all.

Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a lot. 
TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge? Double this?


Ideas/Comments are welcomed.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>

From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>

     "I've done this with a Vargar steward on my groups ship. Keeping her in 
fresh meat is a real challenge at points. Especially since she insists on 
sharing it all with the passengers and crew."


Sir,

     Nice touch!  A steward with odd culinary ideas sounds great.  Have the 
PCs loathe the meals she prepares BUT she also lures lots of high passengers 
aboard with the same.  The PCs Beowulf could get a rep for catering to a 
certain type of traveller; they pay well and are just annoying enough to 
make the PCs batty.

     "Hadn't really thought of the ingredient angle.  Thanks Larsen."

     Your very welcome.  Have your PCs set aside a low berth for the Vargr 
steward's "supplies"?  Or rigged up a similar device in the hold or 
engineering?  How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy 
stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other supplies 
and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require PRECISE 
enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the constant risk 
of possible allergens from all those plants wafting their way through the 
ventilation system...


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:57:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:57:05 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
Message-ID: <F182WZbQLbzjADMBLxt00008700@hotmail.com>

John Groth <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
> > On 23 Apr 2002 at 13:04, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >
> > > The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST
> > > series is that everyone is an officer.
> >
> > That didn't bother me in the slightest, seeing as there were often
> > engineering officers doing what we'd have ratings employed at.
> > Obviously the later Star Trek period saw a lot of 'job inflation' in
> > the Federation. Probably some bureaucrat thought it'd help morale or
> > recruitment if everyone in Starfleet got to be an officer.
>
>I suspect that the rank inflation of the ST universe (and many other
>fictional universes) has more to do with the observation that Robert
>Heinlein (adroitly bringing the thread back to its title) made in _Job:
>A Comedy of Justice_ that civilians automatically seem to equate
>themselves with officers, regardless of the actual position the
>civilians in question hold in the employment and/or social hierarchy.

This may not be accurate, as I'm drawing on secondary sources
(FASA's Star Trek RPG) for this...

Starfleet has a whole rack of Enlisted and NCO ranks, and
people of these ranks make up the majority of the organization.

We, the viewers, keep seeing special and unusual cases.
For example, _USS Enterprise_ (from the old series) was one
of only twelve Constitution-class cruisers, and such ships
were the most prestigious ships in Galaxy Exploration Command,
which was the most prestigious division of Starfleet.  The
crews of these special ships were officers from Captain
down to bottle-washer.

Lesser ships in the Galaxy Exploration Command would have
some enlisted personnel in their crews, and ships in the less
prestigious commands (such as the Merchant Marine or
Colonial Operations Command) would have a more traditional
enlisted to officers ratio.

As I said, this is material from a secondary source, so it
may be inaccurate.  It may even be a whole-cloth creation
of the game designers, rather than a report of the actual
organization of Gene Rodenberry's Starfleet.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <F24sxyWSBuhOF3Gc76o0000388d@hotmail.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

     "I once ran an Aftermath campaign where the players were kept busy 
looking for ingredients for an omelet by a deranged gourmand in return for 
some penicillin."


Mr. Glenn,

     Ooooh, nasty, I like it!
     As a GM, I loved the "we need a nail" trick; getting the PCs to WANT to 
dance to your tune through the use of scavenger hunts.  I never really ran 
any high powered campaigns, so my PCs never needed a lefthanded frommitz 
board in order to turn back the Zho invasion.  Instead, they chased about 
after will o' the wisps as a way of making, or saving, some fast credits.
     A multi-jump high passenger, and her entourage, who will require a 
glass of tomato juice, a nobble steak, 90% humidity in her stateroom, a 
large panetella, and several rounds of whist EACH AND EVERY day while aboard 
really whipsaws the PCs.  They'll slaver over the credits they could make 
and chase around like goofs after the incidentals they'll need to bring it 
off.  That gives the GM oodles of ways to introduce new plots, new NPCs, new 
obstacles, new everything into the campaign.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:05:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:05:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <B8ED52C0.5887D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8ED5AC3.58886%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/25/02 6:29 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> on 4/25/02 1:56 AM, Frank Pitt at frankie@mundens.gen.nz wrote:
> 
>> 
>> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
>> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.
> 
> Austrian Corporal. And I would call it a coup when you are elected to ofice
> by popular vote.
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.


Sorry.  I WOULDN'T call is a coup....
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <20020425052152.7692927A9A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004901c1ec65$0d704c80$7f5d8690@computer>

> From: Lord Ronin from Q-Link 
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?
> 
>  The incorrect response is "Sorry Man I've only got a pipe."

<chuckle>

A _very_ incorrect response.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>; from babyduck@mindspring.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 07:05:51AM -0400
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost> <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020425084838.A15956@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 07:05:51AM -0400, alan spik wrote:
> 
> Now Rupert, The American Tobacco Institute has spent a lot of money
> proving that cigarettes are good for you and you want us to believe on the
> basis of your anecdotal evidence that they could cause someone a problem?
> Get real buddy!

The site I referenced was the usual medical smoking is EEEVIL sort of
claptrap, but even it admitted that smoke is not an allergen, but can
exacerbate _other_ allergies, and asthma.  As I noted.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink
I feel ashamed.  Then I look into the glass and think about
the workers in the brewery and all of their hopes and
dreams.  If I didn't drink this beer, they might be out of
work and their dreams would be shattered.  Then I say to
myself, `It is better that I drink this beer and let their
dreams come true than be selfish and worry about my liver.'
                                             --Unattributed

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 09:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr 25 08:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Judder-drive?
Message-ID: <DAV22gADGFXpWvFmaWn0000574a@hotmail.com>

Did this one die on the vine?

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns9999242

19:00 06 December 00

Full text follows:


A juddering magnet has inspired a scientist at the US Department of Energy
to investigate a bizarre new way of propelling a spacecraft.

The idea for a "judder-drive" struck David Goodwin when he noticed that
powerful, cryogenically-cooled superconducting magnets often jolt in one
direction for a centimetre or two when you first turn them on.

"If you have something metal in the magnetic field as it is forming, you see
the magnet physically shift," says Goodwin, who works at the Office of High
Energy and Nuclear Physics in Germantown, Maryland.

Superconducting magnets are cooled to such a low temperature that they have
no electrical resistance. Goodwin's magnets were made by taking
superconducting wires of niobium-tin alloy and twisting the strands into a
cable. The cables were then coated with an insulator and wound into a coil.
"The coil's then put into a cylindrical casing called a cryostat that's
filled with liquid helium," says Goodwin. The liquid helium cools the wire
coil to -269 C, when they become superconducting.

Goodwin says the metal objects create the judder effect by inducing a "brief
asymmetry in the magnetic field" as it is set up when the magnet is turned
on. This initial disturbance of the magnetic field, he says, creates a
repulsive force on the magnet and pushes it away.

But the force produced in one jolt is very low, Goodwin says, so you would
need to turn the magnet on and off with ultrafast switches, making a fast
stream of jolts. "We've got switches now that can work at high voltages at
400,000 times a second," he says. "If you could use one of these switches to
rapidly switch the magnet on and off, you might get some propulsion out of
it."

A colleague of Goodwin's at Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York is
now modelling the magnetic field of superconducting magnets to work out how
best to arrange a metallic disc in the magnetic field to produce the biggest
jolt. But Goodwin admits the judder drive might be going nowhere fast. "It's
very speculative. We don't know if it'll work," he says.

Marc Millis, who heads NASA's breakthrough propulsion physics project at the
NASA Glenn Research Center at Lewis Field in Cleveland, Ohio, has invited
Goodwin to present his idea at a propulsion conference in July next year.

The crucial thing, says Millis, is whether Goodwin's magnet would produce
any net motion at all - it might just sit there and vibrate. "It's a
definite possibility that any forces arising from Goodwin's concept will
only act within the components of the device itself, resulting in no net
force," he says. "There are a lot of unresolved physics issues to address."

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <3CC82CB1.6050208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Matthew Bond wrote:

> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in
> the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database? It
> is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken as one in 25
> of the members of the database will be misidentified... 

Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here, 
comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.

You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via 
your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of 
false positives and false negatives.

That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously, 
whihc means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched 
erroneously.

If they seriously start arresting, harassing, and otherwise 
incoveniencing people based on this system those shop owners are going 
to lose a lot more business that they would have ever lost by letting 
known shoplifters into their stores.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . .
 yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <20020424223740.A14385@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204250919130.24595-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
> >
> > Try being allergic to cig smoke.
> 
> That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
> <http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.
> 
> Perhaps you're slightly asthmatic, or have other allergies which smoke
> in generl triggers?

Tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens, but many of the things that
tobacco is treated with are allergenic.

I used to live in Kentucky where much of the world's tobacco is grown.  I
would become very ill every year during the spraying season.  You are
smoking, when you smoke cigarettes, all of the pesticides and other
chemicals.  I am not allergic to tobacco, but I have allergic reactions
that are very real to most cigarettes and an even more severe reaction to
the stale ashes of cigarettes.

Robert, you smoke good tobacco. I believe you smoke cigars or a pipe.  I
assure you cigarettes are very different.

Even the cloves I like to smoke once or twice a year cause me some
problems, which is probably why I never got addicted-- I couldn't ever
smoke more than one or two and couldn't do it multiple days in a row.

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:27:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:27:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . .
 yessir we got trouble .
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500 <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC82DFF.50605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Yeah, right. Sure it doesn't. From what I've seen over the years just 
> about anything is allergic to someone out there.
> 

<cringe> People are 'allergic', things are 'allergenic' to people...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <019901c1ec5f$4ae870c0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020425093636.00a0fec0@mindspring.com>

At 09:44 AM 4/25/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
>wars

And 0 for 2 in finishing them...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:40:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:40:11 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019752592.311.ajackson@ping>

David Smart writes:
> Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> very, very large capital ships?

Most of the designs I've seen floating about have been TL 15, I'm not sure you
can build a huge TL 12 capital ship.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:44:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:44:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . .yessir we got trouble .
Message-ID: <200204251643.EZD03454@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
><cringe> People are 'allergic', things are 'allergenic' to 
>people...
>

More to the point - it is possible for a substance to be an 
irritant, with severe effects, and yet provoke no allergic 
response.  Many of the gaseous constituents of tobacco smoke 
probably fall into this category.

Also, some chemicals can make you more sensitive to other 
irritants and allergens.  Toluene di-isocyanate, a popular 
industrial solvent, is famous for turning people into 
permanent asthmatics.

The person at the most risk, however, is probably the 
smoker.  Second hand smoke carries risks, and is an irritant, 
to be sure.  But of all of the things in the cigarette, two 
stand out.  Carbon monoxide is inhaled in sufficient 
quantities to bind hemoglobin for long periods of time.  And 
nicotine is a poison.  Nicotine, as purchased from a plant 
care store, or concentrated from tobacco, is a lethal agent 
if spilled on the skin.  And the smoker is breathing both of 
these agents in concentrations far higher than the person 
receiving the smoke second-hand.

In real life, it's not a healthy thing to be doing to 
yourself, or the others around you.  But, like other risk-
taking that we engage in, it's something that a fair number 
of people accept.  It is far more dangerous to drive your car 
to work everyday.  It is far more dangerous to allow yourself 
to become overweight, or to constantly eat fatty foods.

I am polite enough not to smoke in the presence of people I 
know will be irritated by it.  I was able to stop smoking at 
will in the field, and it never affected my ability to run or 
yomp.  

ObTrav:  IMTU It's a fantastic world of the future - they 
call it tobacco, but centuries of genetic engineering and 
chemistry have produced a product which is largely harmless 
(still working on that carbon monoxide).  Some people might 
find it an irritating habit.  And tactically, it's still a 
bad idea.  Other worlds have come up with other things to 
smoke as well.

As evidenced by "stuff on a stick" at the Regina starport, 
nothing at all has been done about fatty foods.  There are 
plenty of nachos, ding dongs, and powdered sugar donuts in 
the Far Future.
________________
There's a man who leads a life of danger
To everyone he meets he stays a stranger
With every move he makes another chance he takes 
Odds are he won't live to see tomorrow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <OF5C76E27C.BD421F78-ON85256BA6.005BCA1B@pheaa.org>






>>Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
>>wars

>And 0 for 2 in finishing them...

I don't believe Germany actually started WWI. if i remember correctly a
Serbian shot the Arch Duke this got Austria into a war then because of the
way the treaties were set up back then it was a domino effect pulling in
the other countries.

However by the time the war was over Germany had been blamed for WWI.
because they where blamed they were forced to pay reparations and
militarily eviscerated. this cause a lot of Germans to lose pride in being
German. Hitler used this to his advantage. he gave them pride again and so
they followed him.

of course this is a very very small aspect of the whole thing that i don't
have time to go into right now. i love WW2 history and took several courses
on it in both high school and college. and if given the chance could talk
about it all day 8P

anyway

Hasta

Bill









From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 11:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr 25 10:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>

From another list.  Not confirmed by me.

< Begin quote >
A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a plan
to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," Williams said in
a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, Ala.,
resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science from
the
University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in business
management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super Market at
Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
< End quote >

Opinions?

ObTrav: How about a planet that imposes a 100% sales tax on off-worlders.
And don't forget departure taxes...

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 11:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 10:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <200204251751.g3PHpXP22829@premier1.premier.net>

> David Smart writes:
> > Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> > very, very large capital ships?
> 
> Most of the designs I've seen floating about have been TL 15, I'm not sure you
> can build a huge TL 12 capital ship.

The largest TL-12 warship I designed is the 160,000 dton _Agincourt_-class.  
Given that Doug Berry's _Coronation_-class (which was used in butchered form in 
_Imperial Squadrons_) was 90,000 dtons, I would consider _Agincourt_ as 
probably a Late M:0 design.

Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my designs for 
_Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).  Note that all three 
of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry NPAW spinal mounts; I've never 
been a big fan of meson guns.  Besides, there are enough other designers who 
_are_ fond of meson guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that 
ecological niche.

I can repost any or all of these designs when I get home this
evening.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>




<snip>
< Begin quote >
A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
plan
to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
</snip>
<snip>
Opinions?
</snip>

Well if it is true then it makes me ashamed to be from Alabama. however
this guy being from Huntsville wanting to bolster NASA money is not
surprising. Huntsville is a huge NASA area. lot of research goes on there.

this is assuming this is true.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:05:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204251804.g3PI4bP24553@premier1.premier.net>

 
> >>Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
> >>wars
> 
> >And 0 for 2 in finishing them...
> 
> I don't believe Germany actually started WWI. if i remember correctly a
> Serbian shot the Arch Duke this got Austria into a war then because of the
> way the treaties were set up back then it was a domino effect pulling in
> the other countries.

And that was the point.  Austria-Hungary used Archduke Dul^h^h^h Ferdinand's 
assassination as a pretext to destroy Serbia, thus kicking off WWI.  Then, an 
_Austrian_ corporal led Germany into beginning WWII.

<<snip>>

ObTrav:  A third Alternate Imperium (along with the GTU and Mr. Whipsnade's 
Wounded Colossus) could begin with the same event (Dulinor's death) as the 
GTU.  However, in the Guns of August TU, Dulinor's assassins have links to an 
extra-Imperial power [EIP] (your choice) [my suggestion would be a polity in 
the Vargr Extents (the closest thing to the Balkans in the TU, IMHO)].  The 3I 
decides to use this as a _casus belli_ to destroy said EIP.  Unfortunately, 
other EIPs feel threatened by the upsetting of the balance of power and declare 
war on the 3I.  Still other EIPs then ally with the 3I, thus kicking off a 
general
war.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:09:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:09:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>; from texasredshift@hotmail.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:42:03PM -0500
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020425120658.A16347@4dv.net>

As ideas go, it's really not all that bad.  1% is a bit steep, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd' - Ian Lamb, age 3.5

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:13:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:13:09 2002
Subject: [TML] whoops, heres the ship
Message-ID: <3CC800B8.19293.16BC72@localhost>

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--Message-Boundary-3736--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:16:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:16:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
Message-ID: <3CC80086.8268.15FA7B@localhost>

ok, heres something a little less subtle

its a conversion of the old FASA design, which replaces the 50 ton missile bay with 2 
triple salvo missile racks, which trade rate of fire for magazine capacity, but allow the 
chameleon to throw 60 missile salvoes. 

on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles in GT are 
stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? its never made any sense not 
to give them a backup homing capability, and or short range missiles for counter 
missile or anti fighter capabilities?





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:21:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:21:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
> plan
> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
> to "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"

Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want to help make
those dreams come true.

/Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 19/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:24:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:24:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Texas Redshift wrote:
>>From another list.  Not confirmed by me.

> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," 

Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You 
cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the 
First Amendment, with ample precedent.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:28:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:28:11 2002
Subject: [TML] whoops, heres the ship
In-Reply-To: <3CC800B8.19293.16BC72@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019758681.1367.ajackson@ping>

Aiii!  Think you can convinced your mailer not to base64 encode your html?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>

At 07:13 PM 4/25/02 +0100, Andy Brick wrote:
> > A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
> > plan
> > to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
> > Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> > proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> > space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> > Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
> > to "space,
> > space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
>Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want to help make
>those dreams come true.

Follow it with a 1% tax on art books, art supplies, and the sale of art 
(records, tapes, movie tickets, paintings, etc.) to fund federal art projects.

A 1% tax on school books and other educational material to go the Education 
Department.
etc.,etc., etc.

The 1% tax on porn would go straight to the Clinton Library and Slush Fund....

Ob-trav: Oh any number of a fun ways to part your players from their hard 
(or is that ill) earned credits.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <3CC80086.8268.15FA7B@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019759803.54.ajackson@ping>

shadowcat writes:

 
> on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles in GT
> are  stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? its never
> made any sense not  to give them a backup homing capability, and or short
> range missiles for counter  missile or anti fighter capabilities?

It's an artifact of the design system; sensors with useful combat range wind up
being extremely expensive.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:41:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:41:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net>

At 11:17 AM 4/25/02 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Texas Redshift wrote:
>> From another list.  Not confirmed by me.
>>Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
>>proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
>>space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
>>Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
>>space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
>Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You 
>cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the 
>First Amendment, with ample precedent.

Oh, like funking US Constitution 101 every kept anybody out of office...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020425.114504.-189505.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:56:49 +1200 "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> > Well, I hate to butt in here, but I'm a prime
> > example of the above conversation.
> >
> > I'm disabled as you all know, pulling in roughly
> > $17.5k via S.S. and my disability pension.
> 
> Just to show that "tolerable" is definitely relative:
> 
> However, outside of a few high cost areas lke New York city and
> the Silcon Valley environs, the cost of living in New Zealand is
> not appreciably lower than that in the US (at least according to
> my sister who has recently returned from  the US), so what (you
> seem to be implying) constitutes hardship for you, would be
> considered moderately well to do in New Zealand.
> 
> Of course, I'm sure someone from Russia could point out they
> could live like a king on 17.5K USD p.a.
> <grin>
> 
> Frankie

Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
To rent a 1 bedroom house here in Stockton it's $1,000 a month minimum,
to buy $125,000 minimum. For a resonably nice 2 bedroom place in a nice
area expect to start at $250,000. This is typical throughout all the
major cities in California.

Hardship, yes.

ObTrav...
What hardships are you forcing on your players?
The payment is due on your starship.
Your overdue on annual maintenance.
Your tab at the tavern is growing.
Creditors are knocking at your door.
How do you work your players to make a profit.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
Message-ID: <F89BOKvHurVEibVCrfX00004d49@hotmail.com>



>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>shadowcat writes:
>>on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles >>in 
>>GT are  stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? >>its 
>>never made any sense not  to give them a backup homing >>capability, and 
>>or short range missiles for counter  missile or anti >>fighter 
>>capabilities?
>
>It's an artifact of the design system; sensors with useful combat >range 
>wind up being extremely expensive.

I'm not a GT gearhead but the missile shouldn't have to have any significant 
range. Something like a 15'000'km sensor should be enough. The missile will 
know exactly where to look (target data over datalink) and will be much 
closer by the time an accurate position is needed.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 13:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 12:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <F89BOKvHurVEibVCrfX00004d49@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019761410.7031.ajackson@ping>

Patrik Holmstr=F6m writes:

> I'm not a GT gearhead but the missile shouldn't have to have any
> significant  range. Something like a 15'000'km sensor should be enough.
> The missile will  know exactly where to look (target data over datalink) =
and
> will be much  closer by the time an accurate position is needed.

The sensor rules in GURPS are heavily broken (as in, off by several orders =
of
magnitude).  A 10,000 mile sensor is not small.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 13:33:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Thu Apr 25 12:33:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <3CC80086.8268.15FA7B@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020425153645.00a49e30@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Shadowcat,


>on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles in GT 
>are
>stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? its never made 
>any sense not
>to give them a backup homing capability, and or short range missiles for 
>counter
>missile or anti fighter capabilities?

We created some long range bombing missiles that ran on inertial guidance, 
then went active when they hit their designated activation location.  The 
expected activation "hex" had to be planned for when a ship was within (if 
I recall correctly) 3 hexes of the activation hex.  What was done was to 
remove the warhead entirely - turning the missile into a kinetic kill 
weapon.  The primary purpose of this missile was to use it for long range 
attacks on enemy shipping.  It did require the use of GURPS VEHICLES 
missile guidance rules as opposed to the standard GURPS TRAVELLER 
rules.  The main reason for this missile's creation was to exploit the fact 
that transponders on civilian ships can be sensed out to rather *extreme* 
ranges.  The idea here was to create missiles that simulated what amounts 
to a "submarine" attack on civilian shipping.

                Hal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020329002354.00a2d920@pop.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20425.115724.3V9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Further on the Earth example, Earth is on the Suns 100d limit,


Sol's radius is 7e8 m. Or 700,000 km. So the diameter is 1.4e6 km. 

100 d would be 140e6 km. 1 AU is 150e6 km.

So it *is* pretty darn close. 

If you use the tidal force "rule" it's a *lot* smaller.

But there's no need to jump to the outer system. Unless your TU
requires jumps end at a gravity well.

Just plot your jump to clear the 100d limit of Sol and come out
"above", "below", "ahead" or "behind" Earth. Roughly 140e6 km away.
Call it 1 AU. Of course this is worst case. 

That's a long trip in normal space, but there's so much space that
ships could come out in that trying to intercept them would be a matter
of pure *luck*. And damned unlikely. 

If (as is true most of the time) Earth is closer to one "edge" of the
"shadow cone" of the sun, you'd jump for that area. Which concentrates
the ships some, but not a lot, as the difference in transit time caused
by being even a million km away from the "ideal" emergence point isn't
that great, but it *totally* hoses intercept attempts.

> so unless 
> your approach angle is from a planet that isn't blocked by the sun, you 
> have to jump to an outer system body and come in from there.

Nope. See above.

> Notably, this is seasonal, and so you might have a "pirate" season
> when the jump lanes shift.

Seasonal for a particular "route". 

> Also, I realised that there's nothing to stop the pirate from jamming the 
> victim. The J-point of the mainworld (Earth) is beyond sensor range, so the 
> pirate, if clever can avoid the patrol even knowing they had a raid.

Jamming is the exact *opposite* of stealth. Even if it's mostly
directional. It also doesn't prevent your victim from sending out a
signal, especially if it's going in a direction other then one your
have the jamming aimed.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:13:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:13:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <001601c1d6c5$0248a060$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20425.122531.2a1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Ok, lets say that there is a large habitat in the planetoid belt of the
> system (one of several such large stations), where the refined products from
> mining stations scattered throughout the belt in a 0.4 AU radius are brought
> by Cargo Cutters for transfer to a larger Jump Capable Transport for
> shipping to the Mainworld/Neighbouring systems etc.
>
> If you intercept one of the cutters you can probably arrange for the
> intercept point to be several millions of km from the nearest SDB. That
> should give you a few hours uninterrupted piracy...

Now try *doing* the intercept. 

If you are using limited delta-V rules, then it gets more than a little
difficult. Especially given that the pirate needs to save enough fuel
to make his post jump manuevers, and (in the leave behind two cutters)
enough for the second intercept and the post jump manuevers after that.

The ship being intercepted only needs to have enough fuel left to get
within range of a "tug" from it's destination.

And jumping into the attack with a high velocity can backfire. If you
come out on the wrong side of the target, youe velociity is in the
wrong direction, and you'd have been better off jumping in at rest.

And don't forget the uncertainty in emergence times. That can place you
*millions* of km out of position. After all that target ship is
*moving*. At the 200 km/sec figure someone else used, every *hour* you
are off in your emergence time means the target is 3/4s of a million km
away from the position you were planning on.

> Now if you counter this by having each little mining station serviced by
> Jump capable ships, which will need to be either J2 capable, or sacrifice
> cargo space for extra fuel (unless each little station has ample fuel
> available to refill the ships tanks), then my attack plan becomes one of
> raiding the little mining outposts and stealing mining equipment, computers,
> and anything else that can be plundered in a few hours (or maybe even days)
> before the nearest SDB can arrive... or does every little mining out post
> have a few SDB's permanently assigned to its defence? Remember, for every
> SDB on its active duty station there are 2 or 3 others in transit or
> undergoing maintenance.

If mining stations get raided regularly, they are apt to be armed. And
miners in asteroid belts will tend to have some pretty powerful lasers
for mining purposes anyway. And mass drivers for tossing low value
cargoes around the system. Nobody is going to bother hijacking a few
hundred tons of iron. But a mass driver that can toss that into an
orbit where it can be picked up by a processing plant or a planet can
toss a ton of "pebbles" at you like the shotgun from hell.

> After all, you can jump to within a thousand km of a 10km planetoid fire a
> few laser blasts at the rock surrounding the mining outpost, demand no
> resistance then send in your Hearty Swashbucklers in a cutter to plunder the
> outpost while covered by your main ships weaponry. Before any help can
> arrive you are long gone.

No, you *can't* make that jump. You can jump to that close to where it
will be IF YOU EMERGE AT THE CALCULATED TIME. 

If you emerge at a different time, you'll be *way* out of position.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:17:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:17:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <006c01c1d6d7$27f40220$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20425.124254.1N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Timothy Little writes:
>> > Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> > > The jump ship isn't that much more expensive, and the performance
>> > > difference is quite large (it's actually a week for 0.4 AU, not 0.8
>> > > AU).
>> >
>> > (Are you sure you aren't using m s^-2 instead of g's?)
>>
>> Yes.  However, I'm also using HEPlaR (as per the person I was responding
> to),
>> which means max delta-V is horrible.
>
> That was me...
>
> I've just looked up the interplanetary travel rules in TNE. Lets take a
> Cutter with 48 G-Turns of Manoeuvre fuel... that's 24 G-Hours. Obviously you
> will use not more than 1/2 of that to accelerate (assuming you intend to
> stop again...) and realistically you would rarely use more than 1/3, so as
> to leave a 1/3 of a tank for emergencies.
>
> So we will go with 8 G-Hours of acceleration. According to the table on
> p.227 of TNE that equates to 18 minutes per Lightsecond. So in 6 days
> coasting (allowing the remaining day for accelerating and decelerating) you
> can travel (6x24x60)/18 = 480Ls... which is 8 Lightminutes or pretty much
> 1AU for a typical operational range.
>
> The Maximum range would be after 12 G-Hours of burn, reaching 12 minutes per
> Ls, or  1.5 AU in 6 days
>
> In the Broadsword vs Cutter example I used earlier, both have 48 G-Turns of
> fuel as standard, but the Broadsword can dip into its Jump Fuel for extra
> manoeuvre fuel. (With its J3 capacity we can assume it can fairly safely dip
> into 1/3 of its jump fuel without hindering its ability to Jump out if
> things go bad, for an extra 15 G-Turns)
>
> At M-3 the Cutter can reach top speed in 4 hours, the Broadsword only has
> M-2 so would take 6 Hours to reach the same speed,  but it can burn for a
> maximum of 15.5 G-Hours using Jump fuel taking it to about 9 minutes per Ls
>
> Assuming the Cutter has already spent 8 G-Hours burning and is coasting when
> the Broadsword Jumps in at relative rest, just as the Cutter passes it.

That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.

> The
> cutter burns for another hour and 20 minutes to reach 12 G-Hours, the
> Broadsword burns for 7 hours 45 minutes to reach its 15.5 G-Hour burn limit.

> So the Cutter goes at 15min/ls for 80minutes then 12min/ls. The Broadsword
> averages 18min/ls for 465 minutes then it travels at 9min/ls until it
> overhauls the cutter. after both ships stop accelerating the cutter is about
> 11.6 Ls ahead of the Broadsword. It then take the broadsword a further 7
> hours or so to close to point blank range... call it 8 or so to allow the
> broadsword some deceleration to match velocities.
>
> So within 16 Hours of arrival the cutter has been caught. In this time the
> vessels have travelled about 70 Ls, or about 0.15 AU.

Except that you are assuming that the cutter is running away in a
straight line. 

It's smarter to make burns at right angles to his course. That makes
your intercept harder because you don't get to build your vector as
easily. Also, don't forget the effect of light speed lag in trying to
counter his manuevers. Until you get close, you'll lose time
accelewrating in the wrong direction after each acceleration change he
makes. 

And in an emergency like this, *he* can afford to burn his tanks dry,
because either an SDB can intercept and refuel him, or a ship can
intercept him as he zips past his desination.

*He* can afford to be floating thru space with empty tanks. *You*
can't. 

Oh yeah if the cutter *does* run "straight" away from you, and you
follow, he can damage you severely just by dumping trash out the
airlock. Work out what a 50 gram bolt will do at 288 km/sec (8
g-hours). It's equivalent to 460 kilos of TNT.

In space a straight out "stern chase" is *dangerous* for the pursuer.

> A standard SDB has 112 G-Turns of fuel, or 56 G-Hours, so at most it will
> use 26 G-Hours to accelerate. Assuming it was coasting after a 26 G-Hour
> Burn (about 6.5 hours with its 4G drive) and was pointing in exactly the
> right direction it can cover a light second in about 5.5 minutes. In 16
> hours it can travel 175ls, or ~0.37 AU. So if the SDB was perfectly position
> on a reciprocal course with the cutter and already at full speed it could be
> about 0.5AU from where the chase started and get there in time to intercept
> in other circumstances it is likely that the Pirate will have a few hours
> before an SDB arrives, and will have plenty of time to jump if an SDB
> approaches.

Yes, but jumping without having made an intercept is a net loss for the
pirate. 

And as long as an SDB can eventually make an intercept with enough feul
to get back to base with the cutter before the life support in the
cutter runs out, the cutter can burn *all* of its fuel in evading you. 

> All this assumes as well that the Cutter reacts to the Broadswords arrival
> instantly, and that the Broadsword has useful residual velocity, and that it
> didn't jump in a few Ls ahead of the Cutter to cut its lead, and the SDB is
> perfectly positioned to intercept.

And that you emerge from jump at the precise time you planned, rather
than hours earlier or later. 

And a whole bunch of other assumptions I dealt with above.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:20:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:20:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017422404.1406.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20425.130046.1P5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I suppose a situation like that could exist.  Pretty rare, though.  Also, 
> since
> you're transporting mining products (dense, low-value) you're not going to 
> use
> cutters, you're going to use bulk carriers, and stealing the cargo will be
> horribly pointless (ok, you have a load of processed ore, at Cr 5,000 per 
> dton.
> What are you going to do with it?)

Heck, with *that* sort of cargo you don't even use a ship. You just
hang some radar corners off a container (or fuse the stuff into a
reasonably solid block instead of "wasting" a container) and either use
a tug to boost it into a transfer orbit or use a mass driver to launch
it into the orbit. 

At the other end a tug graples it and drags it to the customer.

It ain't worth stealing, and it ain't worth wasting a ship on for the
whole trip. In fact, unless there's a rush, such stuff would be in low
velocity orbits that took months or years in transit. You don't *care*
how long a load takes to get there as long as loads arrive regularly.
Sort of like a pipeline.

Nobody bothers tapping a pipeline to steal oil. It ain't worth the
hassle. And so what if it takes weeks for the oil to move from one end
to the other? As long as there's a steady stream...

>> After all, you can jump to within a thousand km of a 10km planetoid fire a
>> few laser blasts at the rock surrounding the mining outpost, demand no
>> resistance then send in your Hearty Swashbucklers in a cutter to plunder
>> the outpost while covered by your main ships weaponry. Before any help can
>> arrive you are long gone.
>
> And the people in the mining outpost move into their mining tunnels
> behind 500 meters of rock and laugh at you.

And he won't know *where* the tunnels are. So all he can do is blast
the places where they reach the surface. The miners can dig out later.
*They* have mining equipment. He doesn't.

And just picture the results of sending troops into a tunnel if the
miners start a tunneling machine from the other end. 

The troops can damage the cutting heads pretty badly before it crushes
them. Or they can use weapons that are apt to kill them at the same
time they stop the machine.

And if instead of mechanical cutting heads it uses lasers or particle
beams things get *really* interesting. <eg>


Hard rock mining gear is *tough*. It has to be. Gear for cutting into
nickel iron asteroids will be even tougher.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEHCDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <DAV14JGwTVfKB0vJXpV00005a42@hotmail.com>

> The new diet craze! Put on a black hole lapel pin and everyone will think
> you're eating when you aren't getting a single bite!
>

Or place a black hole in your modem.  Everyone will think you're receiving
data when you aren't getting a single byte.

Be assured, I am appropriately ashamed.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <20020425120658.A16347@4dv.net>
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>; from texasredshift@hotmail.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:42:03PM -0500
Message-ID: <3CC91708.13447.1F83B4@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:06, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> As ideas go, it's really not all that bad.  1% is a bit steep, though.

But it should be applied to all everything. Who really thinks SF fans 
are the only beneficiaries of NASA's work?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:03:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:03:12 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <200204251751.g3PHpXP22829@premier1.premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CC91708.29789.1F8305@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:48, wombat@premier.net wrote:

> Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my
> designs for _Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).
>  Note that all three of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry
> NPAW spinal mounts; I've never been a big fan of meson guns. 
> Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of meson
> guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that ecological
> niche. 

I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not 
rea;;y a fan of them either, and seldom use them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net>
References: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 14:35, Mark Urbin wrote:

> >Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You 
> >cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the 
> >First Amendment, with ample precedent.
> 
> Oh, like funking US Constitution 101 every kept anybody out of office...

Seems to me (on a quick read-through) that if actually knowing and up 
holding your constitution was a requirement for election you'd have a 
hell of a lot fewer politicians and also a great many fewer laws.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:11:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:11:37 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425.114504.-189505.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CC91946.27653.28495E@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> To rent a 1 bedroom house here in Stockton it's $1,000 a month minimum,
> to buy $125,000 minimum. For a resonably nice 2 bedroom place in a nice
> area expect to start at $250,000. This is typical throughout all the
> major cities in California.

Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three bedroom place in an 
okay area of Wellington. In my home town of Palmerston North you'd 
probably get a 4-bedroom place.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net>
 <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425171543.00b89ec0@urbin.net>

At 09:02 AM 4/26/02 +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 25 Apr 2002 at 14:35, Mark Urbin wrote:
> > >Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You
> > >cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the
> > >First Amendment, with ample precedent.
> > Oh, like funking US Constitution 101 every kept anybody out of office...
>Seems to me (on a quick read-through) that if actually knowing and up
>holding your constitution was a requirement for election you'd have a
>hell of a lot fewer politicians and also a great many fewer laws.

Oh ya...We would probably have just one member out of our current gaggle of 
congresscritters.

...and he'd be from Texas...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8ee241a5d06@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:42 PM -0500 4/25/02, Texas Redshift wrote:
>  >From another list.  Not confirmed by me.
>
>< Begin quote >
>A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a plan
>to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
>Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
>proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
>space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
>Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
>space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," Williams said in
>a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, Ala.,
>resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science from
>the
>University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in business
>management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super Market at
>Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
>< End quote >
>
>Opinions?


How much of the budget would a 1% tax cover?
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:28:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:28:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>
References: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8ee2476727f@[143.232.119.186]>

At 2:35 PM -0400 4/25/02, Mark Urbin wrote:
>Follow it with a 1% tax on art books, art supplies, and the sale of 
>art (records, tapes, movie tickets, paintings, etc.) to fund federal 
>art projects.

I'm not sure these sort of things are such a bad idea.  It would tie 
the projects in better with their constituencies.  For example, the 
SF tax would give NASA funding from a source that puts a priority on 
its activities and give those who are interested in space research 
more results.  (And people are more tolerant of taxes that go to 
specific things they support).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com> <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020426080850.A14241@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, it's the method ised by floppy *and* hard disk controllers
> for just about everything. GCR and all the rest of that was only used
> by Apple and Commodore.

Yes, and wasn't even used in the Commodore Amiga.  It *could* read and
write GCR, but at single density.  (The GCR encoding method looks
better on paper, 4 bits out of 5, but is inherently lower-density for
a given magnetic coercivity of medium.)


> No, at the *hardware* level, it's still sectors and tracks.

Not even that: at the *hardware* level, it's a sequence of magnetic
polarity changes.  Software (or firmware) groups them into sectors and
tracks.  The Amiga didn't have a firmware sector decoder; it read
tracks in as '0' for no polarity change at the appropriate time, and
'1' if there was.  The MFM decoding, sector recognition, and error
checking was done in software -- by the CPU normally, but I wrote a
driver that used the "Agnes" GPU instead.


> *If* Commodore had used FM and MFM encoding on the disks, rather than
> GCR (basicly a different way of modulating the signal that represents
> the bitstream on the media), then all it'd take to read a C-64 disk on
> a PC would be some fancy software. 

As it is, most modern FDD controllers have MFM decoding and sector
recognition in firmware or hardware, so you can't do GCR reading
without changing chips.  However: there are software tricks by which
you can read *most* low-density GCR in an MFM drive (as in recover 90%
or so of the bits) so long as the drive hardware isn't too "smart" and
refuses to read what it thinks is a damaged sector.  Lower-density GCR
comes out with a predictable pattern of bits after MFM 'decoding'.
The only problem is loss of synchronization in low-quality drives.

I believe the Mac uses variable-speed drive hardware as well as GCR,
so this trick won't work with Mac disks.  (At least, they did 10 years
ago when I last played around with these things!)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:14:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:14:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <20020425.180812.-297303.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:42:03 -0500 "Texas Redshift"
<texasredshift@hotmail.com> writes:
> From another list.  Not confirmed by me.

Here's the actual link: 
http://www.al.com/news/huntsvilletimes/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_stan
dard.xsl?/base/news/101949940424601171.xml
 
> < Begin quote >
> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has 
> proposed a plan
> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times 
> reported.
> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District 
> seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and 
> Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to 
> "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," Williams 
> said in
> a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, 
> Ala.,
> resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science 
> from
> the
> University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in 
> business
> management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super 
> Market at
> Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
> < End quote >


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
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Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] second verse same as the first Chameleon
Message-ID: <3CC83AF3.17728.908D6@localhost>

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--Message-Boundary-8302--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F251utSgcOrBLSAQV6u0000a9dd@hotmail.com>
References: <F251utSgcOrBLSAQV6u0000a9dd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020426083935.A14400@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking about a 
> X-ray laser to it needs to be at least TL13.

That doesn't necessarily follow.  TL13 is where controlled and
contained Xray weapon lasers appear, is it not?  I would expect
detonation lasers to appear *much* earlier; TL8 or 9.


> Here is where we run out of information. How many lasing rods are
> there in a NukeDet?

I don't know.  However, the listed figures are probably the most that
can be directed at a single target (regardless of actual number of
rods).  If you have targets scattered around the nuke, it can almost
certainly generate more beams with the same warhead.


> Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow
> up) or something more powerful (that does)?

The latter, I would expect.  A cartridge that doesn't blow up is
over-engineered for this task.


>Can a lasing rod (as used in NukeDets) also be used with chemicals?

Almost certainly nuclear detonation lasers are nothing like chemical
ones.  They would be based on gamma/hard Xray radiation input to begin
with, and chemical reactions never generate such radiation.


> What is the cost/weight/volume of the lasing rod and tracking
> telescope?

TL dependent, certainly.  


> Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a lot. 
> TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing 
> Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical Lasing 
> Cartridge? Double this?

Theoretically possible, yes.  Practically?  I don't know.  The mass of
a cartridge is more than just the mass of chemical compounds contained
within it, and converting chemical energy to laser energy is usually
far from 100% efficient.  2 MJ/kg is very good, as far as I can see.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:02:38AM +1200
References: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net> <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020425164405.A20114@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:02:38AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Seems to me (on a quick read-through) that if actually knowing and up 
> holding your constitution was a requirement for election you'd have a 
> hell of a lot fewer politicians and also a great many fewer laws.

That's not escaped a lot of folks.  Including, I fear, our
politicians.  Unfortunately, a politician's job is not to uphold the
rules but to keep the mob happy.

I've often felt that it would be a good idea to declare that any
legislator voting for an unconstitutional law may no longer hold any
office.  It'd make the courts too powerful, though.  Sigh.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only kind of freedom that the mob can imagine is freedom to annoy
and oppress its betters, and that is precisely the kind that we mainly
have.                                                   --H.L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Judder-drive?
In-Reply-To: <DAV22gADGFXpWvFmaWn0000574a@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV22gADGFXpWvFmaWn0000574a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020426084822.B14400@freeman.little-possums.net>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> The crucial thing, says Millis, is whether Goodwin's magnet would
> produce any net motion at all - it might just sit there and
> vibrate.

The jolt from switching a powerful electromagnet on or off certainly
isn't anything new in physics.  The exact magnitude is extremely
difficult to calculate in practice, but the physics behind it is just
well-known classical electromagnetism.

There is of course the *possibility* that new physics applies, and so
it might be worth looking at.  However, since known physics already
predicts such a jolt I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a
reactionless drive to arise from this research.

In fact, various plasma drives under test already use a more refined
version of this magnetic back-reaction; but of course they use
reaction mass.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com> <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <20020426080850.A14241@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CC8894B.2060409@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> I believe the Mac uses variable-speed drive hardware as well as GCR,
> so this trick won't work with Mac disks.  (At least, they did 10 years
> ago when I last played around with these things!)

Only for the old, no-longer supported 400 and 800K single density and 
double density disks.

Moreover, the drivers for those 400K (and the 800 K , I think) disks 
represent the Woz's contribution to the Mac...these were actually a 
superior method of encoding than what was on PC's...you can store more 
(400 vs 360k, 800 vs 720) and it's a wee bit more reliable, since all 
the sectors are the same physical size, whereas the physical size (and 
packing of your magnetic bits) of a sector on a PC disk changes from the 
center out.

The Woz originally did this because Shugart wouldn't release specs on 
their floppy disk drives, iirc, so he hacked his own design for the 
original Apple II drives, and came up with this method.

(It's also not dumb, nor all that new, it is, essentially, the same 
mechanism a record player uses, and is used in the CD-red and blue book 
definitions)


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019696542.4978.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260840130.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Anthony:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Sure, congress is theoretically able to reinstate the draft.  They're just
> vanishingly unlikely to want to.

 The latrine-O-gram I heard was that it is just a vote of congress to
restablish the draft. An AYE/NAY vote. I can be very wrong on this point.

 Anyway FWIW I gave up a sole surviving son deferment to enlist. Thought
at the time it was the right thing to do. <1968>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260840130.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019777316.9882.ajackson@ping>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link writes:
> Hoi Anthony:
> 
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> > Sure, congress is theoretically able to reinstate the draft.  They're
> > just vanishingly unlikely to want to.
> 
>  The latrine-O-gram I heard was that it is just a vote of congress to
> restablish the draft. An AYE/NAY vote. I can be very wrong on this point.

Well, it would probably have to be a bill, like any other, requiring both
houses and a presidential signature.  There's lots of pretty extreme things
congress has the power to do, but that doesn't mean they'll actually do any of
those things.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260858570.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Mikko:

On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> Well, I wouldn't want to be in the field with smokers. It has no good
> points, and many bad.

 It was real nice of the rural VS boys after raiding a supply area to
spend the night lighting up the cigs. The red embers weren't fire flies.
I never heard what the rules by the Lao Dong party of the NVA put down if
anything about the VS and the NVA on smoking. I know that some did and
others didn't. FWIW you can tell the diffeence of cig tobacco by the
smell. Camels are the worse.

> Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even farther with image
> intensifiers. Also, you might want not to leave much stuff around, which
> is quite hard if you have to remember collecting everything you smoke.

 Policing the area is a problem for cig smokers. The cigar smokers I knew
would save the stub. Don'T remember the correct word. I smoked a pipe and
all I needed to do was spead and cover the ash.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:41:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:41:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
References: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC892D7.39DE6B02@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

>      Nice touch!  A steward with odd culinary ideas sounds great.  Have the
> PCs loathe the meals she prepares BUT she also lures lots of high passengers
> aboard with the same.  The PCs Beowulf could get a rep for catering to a
> certain type of traveller; they pay well and are just annoying enough to
> make the PCs batty.
>
>      "Hadn't really thought of the ingredient angle.  Thanks Larsen."
>
>      Your very welcome.  Have your PCs set aside a low berth for the Vargr
> steward's "supplies"?  Or rigged up a similar device in the hold or
> engineering?  How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy
> stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other supplies
> and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require PRECISE
> enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the constant risk
> of possible allergens from all those plants wafting their way through the
> ventilation system...

Sweet! Once again thanks. Hee, hee, hee those poor PC's

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #445 - 17 msgs
Message-ID: <34.2697c722.29f9ee48@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/25/2002 5:27:56 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:

For the benefit of those of us who get the digest version, could you please 
put the text in the body of the message instead of attaching it?

All I see is several pages of the following"

>--Message-Boundary-8302
>Content-type: Text/HTML; name="TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class Commerce 
Raider.htm"
>Content-disposition: attachment; filename="TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class 
Commerce Raider.htm"
>Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64
>
>PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcmFuc2l0aW9u
>YWwvL0VOIj4NCjxodG1sIGxhbmc9ImVuIj4NCjxoZWFkPjx0aXRsZT5OZXcgU2hpcCBOYW1l
>PC90aXRsZT48L2hlYWQ+DQo8Ym9keT4NCjxQPjxiPjxjZW50ZXI+PGZvbnQgc2l6ZT0iKzEi
>PjgwMC10b24gPGk+Q2hhbWVsZW9uPC9pPi1jbGFzcyBDb21tZXJjZSBSYWlkZXIsIE5ldyBT
>aGlwIE5hbWUgKFRMMTIpPC9mb250PjwvY2VudGVyPjwvYj48L1A+DQpMaWdodCBDb21tZXJj
>ZSBSYWlkZXIsIE5hc3R5IGZvciBpdHMgc2l6ZQ0KDQo8UD48Qj5DcmV3PC9CPjogMjkgYW5k
>IDEwLTE2IFRyb29wcw0KPC9QPg0KPFA+PEI+SHVsbDwvQj46ICA4MDAtdG9uIFZHU0wsIG5v
>biBMaWZ0aW5nIEJvZHksIE1lZGl1bSBGcmFtZSwgU3RhbmRhcmQgTWF0ZXJpYWxzLCBCb25k
>ZWQgU3VwZXJkZW5zZSAoRXhwZW5zaXZlKSBBcm1vcmVkIEh1bGwgKERSIDQwMDAsIFRoZXJt
>YWwgU3VwZXItY29uZHVjdGluZyBBcm1vciwgUHNpLVNoaWVsZGVkKSwgU3RhbmRhcmQgQ29t
>cGFydG1lbnRhbGl6YXRpb24sIEJhc2ljIFN0ZWFsdGggKC04LCBBTW9kIDIpLCBSYWRpY2Fs
>IEVtaXNzaW9uIENsb2FraW5nICgtMTYsIFBNb2QgLTYgWy04LCBQTW9kIDIgaW4gc3BhY2Vd
>KS48L1A+DQo8UD48Qj5Db250cm9sIEFyZWFzPC9CPjogIENvbW1hbmQgQnJpZGdlIChDb21w
>bGV4aXR5IDEwKSwgIEVuaCBTZW5zb3JzLCAgQ29tcHV0ZXIgQmFuayAoOHhNYWNyb2ZyYW1l
>LCBIaUNhcCwgSGFyZGVuZWQsIENvbXBsZXhpdHkgMTApLCAgRVcgKEhhcmRlbmVkLCBDb21w
>bGV4aXR5IDEwKS48L1A+DQo8VEFCTEUgV0lEVEg9IjkwJSI+DQo8VFI+DQo8VEggQUxJR049
>IkxFRlQiPjxVPkNvbW11bmljYXRvciBSYW5nZSAobWkpPC9VPjwvVEQ+DQo8VEggQUxJR049


Thanks

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020425.170405.-125887.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> 
> Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three bedroom place in 
> an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of Palmerston North you'd 
> probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> 
> -- 

Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security, and my disability
pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260939420.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:

 So would this tax be followed up with a 1% tax on Fantasy RPGs movies and
literature to help finance the Department of Defense <LOL>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425.170405.-125887.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CC94593.29071.D5590E@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 17:04, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security, and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.

Now that's the trick, isn't it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <200204260023.EZT00242@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link says
> So would this tax be followed up with a 1% tax on Fantasy 
>RPGs movies and literature to help finance the Department of 
>Defense <LOL>
>

Now let's think about that for a minute. A lot of us have 
already made our contribution bodily to various Departments 
of Defense (or War, as the case may be).  

Then there's old gaming codgers like Dunnigan, who are now 
central figures in mainstream DoD circles.  

I think that there should be a "lack of imagination" tax.  If 
you spend more on movies, television, and pop music than you 
do on science fiction books and role playing games, then you 
should be required to pay a 25% tax on movies, television, 
and pop music, the proceeds of which should be paid to the 
people who bring you science fiction books and role playing 
games.


We can certainly think up a complicated formula for payment, 
based on the popularity of your work over the years.
________________
There's a man who leads a life of danger
To everyone he meets he stays a stranger
With every move he makes another chance he takes 
Odds are he won't live to see tomorrow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 25 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
References: <20020425222704.BE24927AE3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC8A8A1.B8979294@earthlink.net>

Rupert Boleyn posted:
> 
> On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:48, wombat@premier.net wrote:
> 
> > Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my
> > designs for _Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).
> >  Note that all three of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry
> > NPAW spinal mounts; I've never been a big fan of meson guns.
> > Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of meson
> > guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that ecological
> > niche.
> 
> I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
> really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.

First of all, thank you to all of those who replied. Patrik, I'm
going to mine your site this evening for ideas! Your "Recurrent
Glory"-class is positively stunning.

As for meson guns..yeah, I never liked 'em. Never, that is, until
I saw Patrik's website. How about a 406 Gj Meson Spinal mount that
can punch through a cruiser's meson screen (and armor) at Long
distance?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 19:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 18:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <18819783.11D89EB1.02280B06@aol.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:
> I think that there should be a "lack of imagination" tax.

It's conversations like this that remind me that Ayn
Rand, cracked as she was, actually had a few useful
insights.

The real reason libertarianism never gets anywhere is
because *everyone* has some tax or rule that they would
like to see imposed by force on their fellow men. We
all have some behavior of which we disapprove, so we
reach for the levers of government in order to outlaw
that behavior for everyone. In short, we have met the
second-handers, and they are us.

(Yes, John, I know you weren't being terribly serious.
You just reminded me of a long-standing pet peeve.)

---
Jon



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
In-Reply-To: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>
References: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020426125234.A14613@freeman.little-possums.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy
> stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other
> supplies and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require
> PRECISE enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the
> constant risk of possible allergens from all those plants wafting
> their way through the ventilation system...

Oy!  Stop giving my GM nasty ideas!

My character already has a single-occupancy stateroom with dozens of
exotic plants, special lighting conditions, some with individual
atmospheres, and the cabin *does* have tuned gravity.  Our current
situation has some type of lifeform running around the ship, regarding
which one character has already had suspicions about where it might
have come from.  We don't need allergens as well!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
References: <18819783.11D89EB1.02280B06@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006101c1ecd1$c51ce610$9307b286@Shane>

> The real reason libertarianism never gets anywhere is
> because *everyone* has some tax or rule that they would
> like to see imposed by force on their fellow men.

We do?  Damn, I'd better come up with one quickly or I'll be a *no-one*.
Oh wait.. I already am. :)
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Member of the general public since 1976
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
References: <20425.124254.1N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <001401c1ecd2$fada91c0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>

<snip>

> Matt Bond wrote:
> > Assuming the Cutter has already spent 8 G-Hours burning and is coasting
when
> > the Broadsword Jumps in at relative rest, just as the Cutter passes it.
>
> That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
> emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.

And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that IMTU
while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
calculable duration.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:39:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:39:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
References: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com> <20020426125234.A14613@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <006901c1ecd2$f537b2c0$9307b286@Shane>

Tim wrote:
> My character already has a single-occupancy stateroom with dozens of
> exotic plants, special lighting conditions, some with individual
> atmospheres, and the cabin *does* have tuned gravity.  Our current
> situation has some type of lifeform running around the ship, regarding
> which one character has already had suspicions about where it might
> have come from.  We don't need allergens as well!

"What am I, a biologist now?  How was I meant to know the captain was
allergic to cyanide gas?"
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Trying to plead his case from the wrong side of the
airlock hatch
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:53:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:53:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <17d.7662cf6.29fa26e8@aol.com>

"Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> writes:

>We, the viewers, keep seeing special and unusual cases.
>For example, _USS Enterprise_ (from the old series) was one
>of only twelve Constitution-class cruisers, and such ships
>were the most prestigious ships in Galaxy Exploration Command,
>which was the most prestigious division of Starfleet.  The
>crews of these special ships were officers from Captain
>down to bottle-washer.

Heh. I'm of the opinion that in Star Fleet, Ensigns are a mis-translation of 
the old Terran naval tradition, since in ST they seem to be what you "run up 
the flagpole to see who shoots back"...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 22:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 21:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <20020425.213237.-125945.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 23:43:36 EDT GypsyComet@aol.com writes:
> "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> writes:
> 
> >We, the viewers, keep seeing special and unusual cases.
> >For example, _USS Enterprise_ (from the old series) was one
> >of only twelve Constitution-class cruisers, and such ships
> >were the most prestigious ships in Galaxy Exploration Command,
> >which was the most prestigious division of Starfleet.  The
> >crews of these special ships were officers from Captain
> >down to bottle-washer.
> 
> Heh. I'm of the opinion that in Star Fleet, Ensigns are a 
> mis-translation of 
> the old Terran naval tradition, since in ST they seem to be what you 
> "run up  the flagpole to see who shoots back"...
> 
> GC

There were plenty of enlisted personnel in all of the ST series, but they
were the extras, and the ones who were killed off in battles. And don't
forget the most famous enlisted man Chief O'brian.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 22:49:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 21:49:06 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <F182WZbQLbzjADMBLxt00008700@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020425223624.044bbc10@rollanet.org>

At 08:56 AM 4/25/02, you wrote:
>John Groth <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
>
>This may not be accurate, as I'm drawing on secondary sources
>(FASA's Star Trek RPG) for this...
>
>
>As I said, this is material from a secondary source, so it
>may be inaccurate.  It may even be a whole-cloth creation
>of the game designers, rather than a report of the actual
>organization of Gene Rodenberry's Starfleet.
>
>Walt Smith
>Firelock on DALNet

 From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry 
(copyright 1968)

     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 22:55:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Thu Apr 25 21:55:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020425.213237.-125945.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020425.213237.-125945.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <200204260054080915.01D811E7@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

Traveller's Aide #1 for T20 and Classic Traveller is now available, along=
 with subscriptions.
http://www.TravellerRPG.com


Hunter




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 23:08:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr 25 22:08:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: shadowcat's ships (was TML digest, Vol 2002 #445 - 17 msgs)
In-Reply-To: <34.2697c722.29f9ee48@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIEDMAA.tml@downport.com>

To facilitate your enjoyment of shadowcat's ship conversions, the Aslan
Ambassador has kindly allowed him to park them in his pocket empire:

http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
>
> For the benefit of those of us who get the digest version, could
> you please
> put the text in the body of the message instead of attaching it?


Unfortunately, placing them in the body wraps them in all of the wrong
places. All 72 (so far) of his recent conversions are there in HTML and
'GURPS Traveller Ships' (.gtv) versions.

For those who have been following, this is the direct link to his
most-recent offering
http://www.pocketempires.com/fafrhd/TL12_800-ton_Chameleon-class_Commerce_Ra
ider.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 01:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Fri Apr 26 00:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC96FDE.27660.37E569C@localhost>

I think the most interesting aspect of this proposed tax is that it 
necessitates a definition of what exactly "science fiction" is.  Is 
/Gravity's Rainbow/ SF?  Is /Flowers for Algernon/?  What about 
Michael Crichton's stuff?  And maybe some drek would be 
exempted as being science fantasy -- the Star Wars franchise, 
/ID4/, etc.

<facetious>
Good, no more petty squabbling among people who actually read 
the stuff, now we're going to get a nice, clear government definition!
</facetious>

-- Rachel

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 02:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 26 01:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote :

> Well, I wouldn't want to be in the field with smokers.
> It has no good points, and many bad.

Oh, I don't know. If I was "in the field" I would be more
concerned about my personal survival than the rest of the unit,
and if the others were smokers that makes them bigger targets
than I, presumably increasing my chances of survival!
<grin>

> Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even
> farther with image intensifiers. Also, you might
> want not to leave much  stuff around, which
> is quite hard if you have to remember collecting
> everything you smoke.

I always remember the surprise I got when it was demonstratd to
me that a person taking even a clandestine puff on a
hand-shielded cigarette can be seen from over 2kms with the naked
eye in the dark. The flare of a lit match is even more visible.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:10:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:10:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017438121.4165.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20425.131430.3i5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> And the output of the mining won't be, for example, lanthanun ore, it will
>> be lanthanum... the availability of cheap fusion power makes refining the
>> ore at site then shipping the refined product cost effective compared to
>> shipping ore to a larger refinery elsewhere.
>
> Sort of true.  However, there's no real reason to have multiple small
> mines in a system; just use one big mining ship, reduce asteroids to
> rubble one at a time, and move on.

Actually, this is a flaw in the background. With cheap fusion power,
and especially if the fusion is based on continuous fusion in a plasma
(confined magnetically or by a combo of magnetic and gravitic forces)
you shovel rock in one end and get isotopically pure elements out the
other. The stuff you don't have much need for (like silicon and
aluminum, which "rock" has *way* too much of) you just combinine with
the (way too much) oxygen to form convenient lumps of quartz and
sapphire. 

You'll wind up with megatons of "common" elements, and tons of rare
ones... 

Assuming abundances similar to the Earth's crust, from 10 million tons
of rock (a cube about 1.5 km on a side), you'll get:

        mg/kg			yeild
        -------		----------------------
O	4.61e5		4.6e9	 4,600 kilotons
Si	2.82e5		2.82e9	 2,820 kilotons
Al	8.23e4		8.23e8	   823 kilotons
Fe	5.63e4		5.63e8	   563 kilotons
Ca	4.15e4		4.15e8	   415 kilotons
Na	2.36e4		2.36e8	   236 kilotons
Mg	2.33e4		2.33e8     233 kilotons
K	2.09e4		2.09e8	   209 kilotons
Ti	5.65e3		5.56e7	55,600 tons
H	1.4e3		1.4e7	14,000 tons
P	1.05e3		1.05e7	10,500 tons
Mn	9.50e2		9.50e6	 9,500 tons
F	5.85e2		5.85e6	 5,850 tons
Ba	4.25e2		4.25e6	 4,250 tons
Sr	3.70e2		3.70e6	 3,700 tons
S	3.5e2		3.5e6	 3,500 tons
C	2.00e2		2.00e6	 2,000 tons
Zr	1.65e2		1.65e6	 1,650 tons
Cl	1.45e2		1.45e6	 1,450 tons
V	1.20e2		1.20e6	 1,200 tons
Cr	1.02e2		1.02e6	 1,020 tons
Rb	9.0e1		9.0e5	   900 tons
Ni	8.4e1		8.4e5	   840 tons
Zn	7.0e1		7.0e5	   700 tons
Ce	6.65e1		6.65e5	   665 tons
Cu	6.0e1		6.0e5	   600 tons
Nd	4.15e1		4.15e5	   415 tons
La	3.9e1		3.9e5	   390 tons
Y	3.3e1		3.3e5	   330 tons
Co	2.5e1		2.5e5	   250 tons
Sc	2.2e1		2.2e5	   220 tons
Li	2.0e1		2.0e5	   200 tons
Nb	2.0e1		2.0e5	   200 tons
Ga	1.9e1		1.9e5	   190 tons
N	1.9e1		1.9e5	   190 tons
Pb	1.4e1		1.4e5	   140 tons
B	1e1		1e5	   100 tons
Th	9.6		9.6e4   96,000 kilos
Pr	9.2		9.2e4	92,000 kilos
Sm	7.05		7.05e4	70,500 kilos
Gd	6.2		6.2e4   62,000 kilos
Dy	5.2		5.2e4   52,000 kilos
Ar	3.5		3.5e4   35,000 kilos
Er	3.5		3.5e4   35,000 kilos
Yb	3.2		3.2e4   32,000 kilos
Hf	3.0		3.0e4   30,000 kilos
Cs	3		3e4     30,000 kilos
Be	2.8		2.8e4   28,000 kilos
U	2.7		2.7e4   27,000 kilos
Br	2.4		2.4e4   24,000 kilos
Sn	2.3		2.3e4   23,000 kilos
Eu	2.0		2.0e4   20,000 kilos
Ta	2.0		2.0e4   20,000 kilos
As	1.8		1.8e4   18,000 kilos
Ge	1.5		1.5e4   15,000 kilos
Ho	1.3		1.3e4   13,000 kilos
W	1.25		1.25e4  12,500 kilos
Mo	1.2		1.2e4   12,000 kilos
Tb	1.2		1.2e4   12,000 kilos
Tl	8.5e-1		8.5e3	 8,000 kilos
Lu	8e-1		8e3      8,000 kilos
Tm	5.2e-1		5.2e3    5,200 kilos
I	4.5e-1		4.5e3	 4,500 kilos
In	2.5e-1		2.5e3	 2,500 kilos
Sb	2e-1		2e3	 2,000 kilos
Cd	1.5e-1		1.5e3	 1,500 kilos
Hg	8.5e-2		8.5e2	   850 kilos
Ag	7.5e-2		7.5e2	   750 kilos
Se	5e-2		5e2	   500 kilos
Pd	1.5e-2		1.5e2	   150 kilos
Bi	8.5e-3		8.5e1	    85 kilos
He	8e-3		8e1	    80 kilos
Ne	5e-3		5e1         50 kilos
Pt	5e-3		5e1         50 kilos
Os	1.5e-3		1.5e1	    15 kilos
Ir	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Rh	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Ru	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Te	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Re	7e-4		7	     7 kilos
Xe	3e-5		3e-1	   300 grams
Pa	1.4e-6		1.4e-2	    14 grams
Ra	9e-7		9e-3	     9 grams
Ac	5.5e-10		5.5e-6	 5,500 micrograms
Po	2e-10		2e-6	 2,000 micrograms
Rn	4e-13		4e-9	     4 micrograms

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote Clan Trader
Message-ID: <3CC92AA7.7B2468DE@mindspring.com>

Grote Clan Trader
Most clans make their living by operating free traders or the 300 dT
Grote Clan trader. These clan vessels serve along carefully
planned and investigated trade loops that service dozens of smaller
worlds. A Grote trader showing up twice a year may be the
only "scheduled" trader some worlds see. Clan members may have been
anywhere between the Far Frontiers, Vland, and the
Trans-Rift jump 5 route.

 Craft ID:         Grote Clan Trader, TL 11, 147.229 Mcr, Quantity
discount 132.506 MCr

 Hull:         270/675, Disp=300, Config=Cone 2Sl, Armour=Crystaliron
40E, Loaded=4521.07, Unloaded=3253.106

 Power:          Primary 8/16, Fusion=726 Mw, Duration=30days
                      Secondary 12/24, Fusion=1062 Mw, Duration=3days,
Scoops, Purifiers 24 Hours
                     ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=34 days

 Loco:          8/16 Jump=2, 5/10 Maneuver=1G, Agility=1, NOE=150 Kph

 Comm:         Radio=System x 1, Laser =System x 1

 Sensors:       A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1
                     Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=-  POP=-  PES=R
PEP=-

 Off:         3 Hardpoints, 3 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  Triple Laser-7        x 1 in 1 battery

                                      Triple Sand-10      x 1 in 1
battery
                                      Triple Missile-7     x 1 in 1
Battery
                        Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Missile   2    -     -
                                          1
                             Laser     3    -    -
                                           1
                             Sand      4    -    -
                                           1

 Def:            Def DM= 4

 Control:     Computer=Model 3fib x 3, Panels=Dynamic Linked x 369, HUD
x 5

 Accom:     Officer=1 Crew=7 ( Bridge=2 Engineering=2 Gunners=2
Command=1 Stewards=1 Frozen=8 ) Passengers:
                 High=10  Staterooms=10 Small Staterooms=8, Low
Berths=8, Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
                  inertial comp, Airlocks x 2

 Subcraft:  Air/Raft x1(4 dton, TL 11)

 Other:      Cargo=1376.7 Kl/102 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=907 Kl/67
tons, ObjSize=Average, Ram time= 1.1hours


Author: Alan Spik
Adapted from
Ship: Clan Menzies
Class: Grote Clan Trader
Type: Merchant
Architect: William R. Cameron

USP
         MP-32212B1-040000-30002-0 MCr 162.134 300 Tons
Bat Bear             1     1   1   Crew: 8
Bat                     1     1   1   TL: 11

Cargo: 100.000 Passengers: 10 Frozen Watch Fuel: 66.000 EP: 6.000
Agility: 1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 1.621   Cost in Quantity: MCr 129.707

Note:

     Price increased slightly.
     Computer model increased to 3/fib as 2/fib has not enough control
points. I put five HUD onboard one each for gunners,
     Bridge crew and the commander.
     Passenger get normal Staterooms, Crew have individual small
Staterooms
     Power increased to 7.2 EP to cover weapons and agility. Plant split
into a primary and secondary for 30 days normal
     operation, agility 0, and a 3day combat/agility boost
     Added Air/Raft

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:45:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:45:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote Outrim Jade Patrol craft
Message-ID: <3CC92C3E.F65CA749@mindspring.com>

Grote Outrim Jade Class Escort Patrol
    The Outrim Jade class is Grotes answer to the Escort vessel for the
Merchant Fleet. In addition to escorting the legendary
Grotian Black Ships, they can be found patrolling merchant routes or
hunting the occasional transgressor against the sanctity of
the traders.
 Craft ID:    Grote Outrim Jade class patrol vessel, TL 13, 613.028 Mcr,
Quantity discount 551.725 MCr

 Hull:       540/1350, Disp=600, Config=Dome/Disc 6Sl,
Armour=Crystaliron 52E, Loaded=11836.149,
              Unloaded=11377.19

Power:       Primary 29/58, Fusion=3,978 Mw, Duration=30 days, Scoops,
Purifiers 24 Hours
                 Secondary 51/102, Fusion=6,840, Duration=3 days
                 ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=103 days

 Loco:          22/44, Jump=2, 43/86, Maneuver=3G, Agility=0/3

 Comm:          Radio=System x1, Laser=System x 1

 Sensors:          A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1, Hi-pen
Densinometer(1m) x 1, Neutrino(1Gw) x 1
                       Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=F  POP=F
PES=R  PEP=F

 Off:         6 Hardpoints, 6 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  Triple BLaser-7     x 2 in 2 battery
                                      Triple Sand-10      x 2 in 2
battery
                                      Triple Missile-7     x 2 in 2
Battery
                        Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Missile   3    -     -
                                          2
                             Laser     4    -    -
                                          2
                             Sand      4    -    -
                                          2

 Def:         Def DM=9

 Control:          Computer=Model 5fib x 3, Panels=Dynamic Linked x
1323, HUholoD x 9, Large Holodisplay x1

 Accom:      Officer=5 Crew=25 ( Bridge=3 Engineering=4 Gunners=4
Flight=4 Troops=10 Command=4 Stewards=1)
                  Staterooms=5, Small Staterooms=25, Emergency Low
Berths=6, Env=basic env, basic ls,
                  extended ls,  grav plates,  inertial comp, Airlocks x
4

 Subcraft:         Gig x1(20 dton, Crew=3, TL=13)

 Other:          Cargo=215 Kl/15.9 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=3485
Kl/258 tons, ObjSize=Large, Ram time= 2.2 hours


Author: Alan Spik
Adapted from
Ship: Outrim Ruby
Class: Outrim Jade
Type: Escort/Strike Patroller
Architect: Shemp

USP
         EP-66335C2-440000-40003-0 MCr 548.576 600 Tons
Bat Bear             2     2   2   Crew: 25
Bat                     2     2   2   TL: 13

Cargo: 10.000 Emergency Low: 6 Fuel: 210.000 EP: 30.000 Agility: 3
Marines: 10
Craft: 1 x 20T Pinnace
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x 1G Maneuver Drive 1 x Jump 1 Drive 1 x Factor 1 Power Plant
1 x
Model/1 Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 5.486   Cost in Quantity: MCr 438.861

Notes:

      As specified, w/o backups and increasing the power plant to
achieve agility 3 the vessel has a volume deficit of 150
     dtons. I changed the power plant to a primary/Secondary (Normal
operations/Weapons & Screens) power system 30/3
     days total 43+ EP ( With the below changes/notes this brings cargo
to 15.9 tons)
     Computer increased to 5 fib to cover control points
     Crew increased to 30 by crew calculation
     9 HUholoD installed for Gunners, Bridge Crew and some of command
crew. Large holodisplay installed
     Assume Officers are in standard staterooms Crew are in small
Staterooms
     In addition to A-EMS and P-EMS I installed TL appropriate Hi-pen
Densinometer and Neutrino detector
     Price increased
     Pinnaces in the OTU and IMTU are 40 dtons. I substituted a 20 dton
Gig.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote Black Ship
Message-ID: <3CC92D0B.F946A2A4@mindspring.com>

Grote Black Ship
The Grote Black Ship is the 57th century version of the containerized
cargo ship. They make a bee-line to the entrepot system,
stopping only long enough to refuel. In transit to their destination,
Black Ships refuel only at Class A or B ports in trustworthy
systems. Otherwise the escorting vessels act as fuel lighters during
frontier refueling. The wilderness refueling points may be
very distant gas giants, Kuiper belt objects, or random comets. A system
may never know that a Black Ship convoy has
passed through. They hump precious cargo and replacement crew from Grote
to whatever system has been designated the
sector entrepot that year. The clan traders moving along their trade
loops all eventually visit the designated entrepot system to
pick up new crew and high TL goodies. The boost in trade leads systems
in these sectors to compete among each other to host
the Grote entrepot. The Black ship is unusual in that it is built from
high tech parts imported to Grote by

 Craft ID:         Grote Black Ship, TL 13, 2403.599 Mcr, Quantity
discount 2163.239 MCr

 Hull:      6300/15750, Disp=7,000, Config=Irregular 7Usl,
Armour=Superdense 40E, Loaded=76334.002,
              Unloaded=53789.964

 Power:          Primary 125/250, Fusion=16,848 Mw, Duration=30 days,
Scoops, Purifiers 24 Hours
                     Secondary 113/226, Fusion=15210 Mw, Duration=3
Days( Weapons, Screens and Agility)
                     ExtEnd excludes: (1g), =62 days

 Loco:          315/630 Jump=4, 126/252, Maneuver=1G, Agility=0

 Comm:          Radio=System x 1, Laser =System x 1

 Sensors:   A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1, Hi-pen
Densinometer(1m) x 1, Neutrino(1Gw) x 1
                Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=F  POP=F  PES=R  PEP=F

 Off:         70 Hardpoints, 70 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  Triple Laser-13        x 10 in 10
battery
                                      Triple Sand-10      x 30 in 10
battery
                                      Triple Missile-13     x 30 in 3
Battery
                        Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Missile   7    -     -
                                          3
                             Laser     4    -    -
                                           10
                             Sand      6    -    -
                                           10

 Def:         Def DM= 6, Nuclear Damper=F3

 Control:          Computer=Model 6fib x 3, Panels=Holodynamic Linked x
4419, HUholoD x 64, Large holodisplay x 1

 Accom:          Officer=17 Crew=152 ( Bridge=10 Engineering=14
Maintenance=1 Gunners=47 Flight=10 Command=14
                      Stewards=3 Medical=70) Passengers: Low=1400
Staterooms=17 Small Staterooms=152, Low Berths=1400,
                      Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
inertial comp, Airlocks x 14

 Subcraft:         Gig x 1 (20 dton, Crew=3, TLC), Modular Cutter x 2
(50 dton, Crew=2, TLC)

 Other:          Cargo=20375.9 Kl/1509.3 tons, EMLevel=Moderate,
Fuel=30973 Kl/2294 tons, ObjSize=Large

Author: Alan Spik
Created from a discussion with Mr. LE Whipsnade

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:51:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:51:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Grotes Clan Shps
Message-ID: <3CC92DBB.6AA8007C@mindspring.com>

Hi all!
The vessels that follow were converted from LEW's HG2 designs of the
Grote Clan vessels.Or created from discussions concerning Grote and ways
to kill the PC's......I mean make the game more enjoyable.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC96FDE.27660.37E569C@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEGPHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rachel Kronick wrote :

> I think the most interesting aspect of this proposed
> tax is that it  necessitates a definition of what
> exactly "science fiction" is.

Good point.

> Is /Gravity's Rainbow/ SF?  Is /Flowers for Algernon/?

I'd say yes to both personally.

> What about Michael Crichton's stuff?

Yes, definitely. At least Andromeda Strain, and the Jurassic Park
stuff anyway.

> And maybe some drek would be exempted as being science
> fantasy -- the Star Wars franchise, /ID4/, etc.

That's probably the market they want to tax because it's so
profitable!

Would '1984' count as science fiction seeing as it is in the
past?
Or "2001" ?
How about Harry Turtledove's "The Guns of the South" ?
Or Steampunk (like the recent "Wild Wild West"?
And what about Yeats' "Erewhon" ?
Or Swift's "Gulliver's Travels" ?

Is "The Cube" SF or horror ?
How about "Event Horizon", "Pitch Black", or even "Alien"?

Deciding this could keep the US legislators busy for many months.

What a great idea this is, they could then start funding
hospitals with a tax on hospital dramas, and police forces with a
tax on police shows, and prisons with a tax on the Sopranos, and
mental institutions with a tax on "Fraser" (or perhaps any sitcom
for that matter, and those reality TV shows to boot).

> <facetious>
> Good, no more petty squabbling among people who actually read
> the stuff, now we're going to get a nice, clear
> government definition!
> </facetious>

That would probably be the best thing to come from this.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 05:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 04:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <3CC898A7.24874.A0B7D7@localhost>
Message-ID: <20426.032205.4g1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 25 Apr 2002 at 1:34, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
>> > least keep the false positive rate down.
>> 
>> You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
>> entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
>> take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
>> have to be present at the trial *there*. 
>
> Well sue the originating organisation. Then sue 'em for libel in that 
> they spread false infermation about you.

Trouble is, that doesn't work if it's a police department making an
"honest mistake". As I've said, over the years comp.risks has had posts
about a number errors of that sort.

The best you can get from the originating department is for them to fix
*their* records. They are *not* responsible for other departments
picking up the erroneous "want" and sticking it in their own databases.

You really and truly *do* have to sue each and every department,
individually.

Now in the "private mall, using this for security" scenario, then you
have a *much* better chance of winning a suit. But if it's a police
agency, it's a *lot* harder.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 05:21:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 04:21:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <001401c1ecd2$fada91c0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20426.031637.5Y6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>
> <snip>
>
>> Matt Bond wrote:
>> > Assuming the Cutter has already spent 8 G-Hours burning and is coasting
> when
>> > the Broadsword Jumps in at relative rest, just as the Cutter passes it.
>>
>> That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
>> emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.
>
> And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that IMTU
> while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
> calculable duration.

Pardon me for not keeping track of the ways your TU differs from the
OTU over the time that's passed since those posts...

If your TU differs from the "standard" one, then you need to
*explicitly* state applicable differences or live with people assuming
that anything you haven't specificly mentioned works "normally". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 05:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 04:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (OT/spam) FS: TSR's ALTERNITY gamebooks
Message-ID: <200204261140.g3QBeuG09224@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

  FWIW, if anyone is interested in space opera I've getting
rid of a largish collection of TSR's (or WotC - take your 
pick...) ALTERNITY rules and supplemnts, & STARDRIVE and 
DARK MATTER settings. Replies to me, _not_ the TML :)

  Steven Hudson - shudson@lightspeed.ca 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 06:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr 26 05:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise (With my Jump Durat
 ion rules reiterated)
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8B@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> 
> In mail you write:
<snip>
> > And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you 
> would know that IMTU
> > while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a 
> predictable and
> > calculable duration.
> 
> Pardon me for not keeping track of the ways your TU differs from the
> OTU over the time that's passed since those posts...
> 
> If your TU differs from the "standard" one, then you need to
> *explicitly* state applicable differences or live with people assuming
> that anything you haven't specificly mentioned works "normally". 

Well as I had mentioned it detail both in earlier parts of the piracy
thread *and* the astogation thread, I got tired of writing it out in
every post... 

To reiterate:

The only difference in my universe is that rather then rolling jump
duration *after* jump has commenced, and the duration being unknown
until just before emergence, I roll *before* jump, and the duration is
calculable by the astrogator prior to jump starting. Any other vessel
initiating jump from within a few thousand km of the jump intitation
point heading to within a few thousand km of the jump exit poit within a
few hours will have the same duration (to within a few minutes or less).
Jumps to or from diffent points, or at different times will have
different jump durations (ie roll a new duration). 

A skilled astrogator can calculate the jump duration for increasingly
distant start times, and so may be able to identify a quicker jump
duration 'window' occurring in several hours time that will result in
earlier arrival time than jumping immediately (ie roll a number of jump
'window' durations equal to the astrogators skill. Each window is
several hours long (somwhere between 4 and 6 seems appropriate). So you
if you have skill 4 you know *in advance* the jump duration if you jump
now, in 4 hours, 8 hours, 12 hours, or 16 hours time etc. 

Oh, and an 'astrogator' of skill 0 gets no advance rolls, so is stuck
with whatever jump duration he rolls on initiating Jump. He is unskilled
enough to calculate a jump duration before conditions have changed such
that the calculated time is moot. He still knows what time they will
emerge from jump though, as he can caulate the exit time and get the
answer a few hours into the jump as he knows what conditions were on
jump initiation...

What are the benefits of my interpretation of when jump duration is
rolled? Coordinated Fleet Movements and improved value of astrogation
skill. Both of which I find desirable. Downsides to my interpretation?
none that I can think of. I still retain the canonicity of random jump
duration, only my interpretaion of when the random duration is rolled is
different. 

And I'm hard pressed to recall any GDW canon (as opposed to possible
Gurps or DGP canon) which states that the rolled duration is unknown
until exit, just that there is a variable duration to jumps and that
they do not all take 7 days, but instead take roughly 6-8 days and a
roll is made to determine exact duration. Indeed I recall mention in
some GDW products that Fleets can arrive simultaneaously, which must
either mean jump duration is known in advance so that each ship can jump
in staggered intervals to co-ordinate arrival times, or all ships in a
given vicintity at a given time jumping to the same destination have the
same jump duration, or indeed, as I have interpreted it, jump duration
is both known in advance and is constant for a given jump at a given
time.

I await your comments with both bated breath and asbestos undies...

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 08:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 26 07:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On:  Glenn Grant's Smart Fabrics!
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1019830438.0.01037600@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Some years back, there was a discussion on the TML of the use of optic technology to weave a "smart" fabric. It was authored by Glenn Grant with the input of Rob O'Connor, Mikko, and others of this list. The results can be found on our mail host's wonderful Traveller Central website.

Well...

Today, ABCNews.com has posted a story of a Real Life(tm) fabric fiber (fibre, for those across the pond) that incorporates optic technology. The story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/CuttingEdge/cuttingedge020426.html

The team that developed the new fiber/fibre is part of the new Institute for Soldier Nanotechnology at MIT. Cost of the process is 10 U.S. cents per meter.

Reflec, anyone? 

I know, I know. We may not be there yet, but...

David Smart
("We Want Jumpdrive! We Want Jumpdrive!")

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 08:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 26 07:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Message-ID: <F257P5o7P6umLrXWq0G0000075e@hotmail.com>

From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>

     "The vessels that follow were converted from LEW's HG2 designs of the 
Grote Clan vessels.  Or created from discussions concerning Grote and ways 
to kill the PC's... I mean make the game more enjoyable."


Ladies and Gentlemen,

     I do hope you enjoy Mr. Spik's masterful MT conversions of two ships 
from a long ago campaign.  I know I have.
     His efforts gave me a new appreciation of MT's ship design rules.  I 
would have never thought it possible to do what he has done.
     For those of you who may be interested, here's a little background on 
the (supposed) thought processes that went into the original designs.

     Both the Trader and Patroller first saw life as Book2 designs.  In the 
case of the Trader, interpolation of the hull and engineering tabels was 
required.  The jump between Book2 and HG2 presented little difficulty.
     The Trader was an attempt to fashion a jump2 Beowulf.  The Patroller 
was an attempt to create a more "manageable" Broadsword.  While both vessels 
"fit" into a Whipsnadian TU, whether they could actually work in other TU's 
is debatable.  You can already see the problems one has recreating them in 
MT terms, whether they can built in FF&S1/2 or GT is unknown.  Indeed, 
whether the Trader can break even in GT:FT is unknown.
     In the few campaigns in which they they appeared, I never bothered to 
fully detail the Black Ships.  The PCs never served aboard one, visited one, 
or saw one, except at a great distance.  The Black Ships were a bit of 
background "chrome", like the omnipresent, but rarely seen, megacorp 
megafreighters.  Mr. Spik's wonderful design for the Black Ships now resides 
permanently on my hard drive and back-up discs.


     Flexiable Batteries

     I should also fill you in on a Whipsnadian house rule regarding 
batteries.  A flexiable battery structure was part of my campaign, 
especially aboard naval and PC-crewed vessels.  Put simply, during each 
combat round similiarly armed turrets could be grouped into batteries as the 
players saw fit.  Thus turrets can be split up into whichever battery 
grouping the PCs deem fit for the situation.  All the laser turrets can be 
consolidated for a better offensive strike or parceled out for more 
anti-missile chances.  You can combine several missile turrets into a more 
powerful salvo or split them into smaller salvos to swamp any anti-missile 
fire.
     In the case of the Outrim Jade, which sports two turrets with 3 beam 
lasers apiece, that vessel could either fire a single battery with an USP 
rating of 5 (6 lasers for 4, with +1 TL13 bonus) or two batteries with USP 
ratings of 4 (3 lasers apiece for 3, with the +1 TL13 bonus).  Obviously the 
missile turrets and sandcasters can be "flexed" in the same manner.
     Software, hardware, and manning requirements for the batteries/turrets 
gets a little squirrelly.  By GM fiat, I simply decreed that naval vessels 
had the software, hardware, and personnel necessary to "flex" their 
batteries into any configuration desired.  Getting the necessary software 
and hardware to do the same was a campaign goal for my PCs.  IIRC, I forced 
the PCs to set aside ~0.25 dT per turret for the mechanical end of things, 
plus another 1 dT on the bridge.
     The software costs were handled by requiring them to purchase all new 
offensive and defensive programming for the weapon types and abilities they 
wished to "flex".  Thus, to flex missile turrets they'd need both a new 
launch and target program.  To add gunner skills to the flexed batteries, a 
new interact program would be required.  To perform flexed anti-missile 
fire, a new program for that.  And so forth.
     Manning requires a bit more explanation.  Obviously, any turret used 
alone requires a gunner.  But only one gunner is needed for any battery.  To 
further confuse matters, any battery consisting of any number of turrets 
could be fired from a specific bridge station by a crewmember dedicated to 
that task for that combat round.
     Taking the Outrim Jade as an example; that vessel has two triple laser 
turrets.  One turret could be fired alone locally or in a battery from 
either the bridge or one of the turrets in that battery.  The gunner 
performing that action would be unable to do anything else during that 
combat round, i.e. DC work.
     This bit of Whipsnadian silliness also allowed the PCs to put gunnery 
skills to better use.  A PC with a high gunnery skill need not be shackled 
to a particular turret.  Instead, she could man a bridge station and take 
command of specific turrets or batteries depending on the situation.  My PCs 
seemed to enjoy the "extra" control in combat situations and it's all about 
having fun, right?

     I'm sure all of this will excite comments, mostly along the lines of 
"You're really #&$@#&$ nuts, Larsen", and I look forward to hearing them.  
Unfortunately, I will be away until late Sunday on business.  If your 
comments go unremarked over the next 72 hours, that is the reason why.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 09:12:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 08:12:44 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020425223624.044bbc10@rollanet.org>
References: <F182WZbQLbzjADMBLxt00008700@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426075429.009ed120@mindspring.com>

At 10:49 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
> From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry 
> (copyright 1968)
>
>     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
> only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
> goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
> Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer."

An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS.

Of course, it goes along nicely with ST's socialist view.. in the Soviet 
military all the technical jobs were held by officers.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 09:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 26 08:53:04 2002
Subject: Ship's weapons (was Re: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?)
Message-ID: <12b.105c4b92.29fad1cc@aol.com>

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In a message dated 4/26/02 2:10:03 AM Central Daylight Time, several 
anti-Meson opinions get flexed:
> 
> > I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
> > really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.
> 

That is a pretty good question, isn't it?  
   In its nondestructive form, it can be manipulated to be used as both an 
undetectable _and_ unjammable communications source, while in its _far_ more 
popular (and destructive) application, it can be manipulated in such a way as 
to entirely _bypass_ an otherwise solid hull to magically cause explosions 
_inside_ a target.
   The entire "it just does" concept (talk about handwaving) associated with 
Meson Technology has never sat right with me, and I've never used it IMTU.
   So the above question, along with several different takes on Starship 
Combat and weaponry on the web, got me to wondering about just _what_ 
technologies (whether canon or not) folks use or don't use.
   Illuminate me :)

  -Ken Murphy-
   
"When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer 
for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out 
of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God 
Almighty have mercy on you!" 

Legion of the Damned
Sven Hassel   


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/26/02 2:10:03 AM Central Daylight Time, several anti-Meson opinions get flexed:
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BR>&gt; I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
<BR>&gt; really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>That is a pretty good question, isn't it? &nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;In its nondestructive form, it can be manipulated to be used as both an undetectable _and_ unjammable communications source, while in its _far_ more popular (and destructive) application, it can be manipulated in such a way as to entirely _bypass_ an otherwise solid hull to magically cause explosions _inside_ a target.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">The entire "it just does" concept (talk about handwaving) associated with Meson Technology has never sat right with me, and I've never used it IMTU.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;So the above question, along with several different takes on Starship Combat and weaponry on the web, got me to wondering about just _what_ technologies (whether canon or not) folks use or don't use.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Illuminate me :)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR><P ALIGN=CENTER>"When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God Almighty have mercy on you!" 
<BR><P ALIGN=LEFT>
<BR>Legion of the Damned
<BR>Sven Hassel &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></P></P></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 10:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Apr 26 09:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise (With my Jump Durat ion rules reiterated)
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8B@KARPAD01>
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8B@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <m3d6wmv36q.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> Downsides to my interpretation?  None that I can think of.

I like it in many ways, but it does means that a certain element of
adventure is removed.  That is, imagine that the Flying Wallenda is
fleeing Glisten with a jump-capable patrol boat just behind.  The
Wallenda makes it to 100D and jumps.  The patrol boat--knowing where
the Wallenda is jumping--makes the same jump, and they come out of
J-space at the same time.

Whereas in the traditional interpretation, they come out several hours
apart from one another in the average case.  Which is not a bad thing
for the Wallenda.

-- 
<+>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 10:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Apr 26 09:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
In-Reply-To: <F257P5o7P6umLrXWq0G0000075e@hotmail.com>
References: <F257P5o7P6umLrXWq0G0000075e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m38z7av321.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>      Flexiable Batteries

Brilliant!  I love it.  This should become part of canon, methinks.

-- 
<+>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 10:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 09:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019839692.4851.ajackson@ping>

Frank Pitt writes:
> 
> Oh, I don't know. If I was "in the field" I would be more
> concerned about my personal survival than the rest of the unit,
> and if the others were smokers that makes them bigger targets
> than I, presumably increasing my chances of survival!

Nah.  Increasing your chances of becoming collateral damage of shooting at
them.
> 
> I always remember the surprise I got when it was demonstratd to
> me that a person taking even a clandestine puff on a
> hand-shielded cigarette can be seen from over 2kms with the naked
> eye in the dark. The flare of a lit match is even more visible.

Interesting.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 11:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 10:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <3CC988C2.7060505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Frank Pitt wrote:

> Oh, I don't know. If I was "in the field" I would be more
> concerned about my personal survival than the rest of the unit,
> and if the others were smokers that makes them bigger targets
> than I, presumably increasing my chances of survival!
> <grin>

Only if the other side are snipers and not arty, or air support.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 11:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Apr 26 10:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
Message-ID: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>

> From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:20:51 -0500
> Subject: [TML] second verse same as the first Chameleon
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>
> --Message-Boundary-8302
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-disposition: inline
> Content-description: Attachment information.
>
> The following section of this message contains a file attachment

Shadowcat,

Please stop sending attachements. It fucks up the digest. If the file
you are sending is plain text the easiest way for it to be viewable
by all is to "copy all" from the source file and "paste" into the body 
of the email. If your source file is a binary it shouldn't be sent to
the mailing list at all.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 12:14:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 26 11:14:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEJGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
>entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
>take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
>have to be present at the trial *there*.

That's why we have class actions and contingency fee arrangements.  Whoever
gets misidentified first, please call me.  I'm pretty well connected to both
the police abuse and class action bars.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 12:36:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Fri Apr 26 11:36:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
In-Reply-To: <20020426125234.A14613@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204262034490.309178-100000@svati>

On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

>Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>> How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy
>> stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other
>> supplies and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require
>> PRECISE enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the
>> constant risk of possible allergens from all those plants wafting
>> their way through the ventilation system...
>
>Oy!  Stop giving my GM nasty ideas!

No, no Mr. Whipsnade! Don't listen to Tim, hsi GM likes the nasty
ideas :-)

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 12:40:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr 26 11:40:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
In-Reply-To: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEINDMAA.tml@downport.com>

He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't even know
it was happening. To fix the problem we are posting his ships on a web site
and he will just post the URL. If he can get GTS and Pegasus both to
cooperated, he may post plain text in the body of his messages. Here is the
URL again:

http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd

More GT ships and a load of High Guard designs are uploading... oop, done!
_____________________________________________
The Traveller Web Portal
http://www.downport.com
webmaster@downport.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of David Shayne
> Shadowcat,
>
> Please stop sending attachements.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 13:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Fri Apr 26 12:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
Message-ID: <l03010d02b8ef54d1ed86@[206.224.92.67]>

Two items I thought the folks here might be interested in:

The GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set:

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/anniversaryset/

And the 25th anniversary limited edition hardback: Only one press run,
limited to pre-orders. The cover is black bonded leather, foil stamped with
the Traveller 25th-anniversary seal. A special full-color art page is bound
into the front with the signatures.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/core/

You can make reservations for the hardback for the three weeks prior to its
release, contact orders@sjgames.com for details and an estimated date of
publication.



Loren Wiseman
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/
     SJ Games
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 13:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Apr 26 12:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
References: <20020426190109.0A0CC279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC9A9F9.B79CECC2@ameritech.net>




> From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>

> Subject: RE: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
> Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:38:25 -0400
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't even know
> it was happening. To fix the problem we are posting his ships on a web site
> and he will just post the URL. 

An admirable solution.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 14:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 26 13:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1019852076.0.55530000@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Frankie posted:
>
> Deciding this could keep the US legislators busy for many months.
>
> What a great idea this is, they could then start funding
> hospitals with a tax on hospital dramas, and police forces with a
> tax on police shows, and prisons with a tax on the Sopranos, and
> mental institutions with a tax on "Fraser" (or perhaps any sitcom
> for that matter, and those reality TV shows to boot).

Personally, I'd like to see our wonderfully competent and effective Congress have their salaries tied to taxes received from their episodes on C-SPAN.

The thought of them having to come up with ways to capture and hold the common person's interest in Congressional legislative activities that Congress really doesn't want general oversight on tickles me to no end.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 15:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 14:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
In-Reply-To: <l03010d02b8ef54d1ed86@[206.224.92.67]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426145538.009eabf0@mindspring.com>

At 02:07 PM 4/26/02 -0500, you wrote:
>The GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set:
>
>http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/anniversaryset/
>
>And the 25th anniversary limited edition hardback: Only one press run,
>limited to pre-orders. The cover is black bonded leather, foil stamped with
>the Traveller 25th-anniversary seal. A special full-color art page is bound
>into the front with the signatures.

Argh.  You would put this out two weeks after I go on disability.

Anyway, trying to justify buying three products I already own to my wife 
would result in temperatures similar to those found on Pluto.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 16:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 15:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEINDMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426150540.009fcec0@mindspring.com>

At 02:38 PM 4/26/02 -0400, you wrote:
>He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't even know
>it was happening. To fix the problem we are posting his ships on a web site
>and he will just post the URL. If he can get GTS and Pegasus both to
>cooperated, he may post plain text in the body of his messages. Here is the
>URL again:
>
>http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd
>
>More GT ships and a load of High Guard designs are uploading... oop, done!

Very nice!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 16:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 15:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
References: <l03010d02b8ef54d1ed86@[206.224.92.67]>
Message-ID: <3CC9DB27.6010501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Loren Wiseman wrote:

> http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/core/

Am I the only one here who went 'All RIGHT! A Core sourcebook!' only to 
be dissapointed?

(I mean the leather-bound 25th anniversary one was the first Kewl thing, 
right?)

No offense Loren, but for a moment, I thought 'The richest, most 
powerful worlds in the Imperium...it's very *heart* ... what a place!'

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 17:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 16:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426145538.009eabf0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC9DCEE.8BAC6647@mindspring.com>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 02:07 PM 4/26/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >The GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set:
> >
> >http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/anniversaryset/
> >
> >And the 25th anniversary limited edition hardback: Only one press run,
> >limited to pre-orders. The cover is black bonded leather, foil stamped with
> >the Traveller 25th-anniversary seal. A special full-color art page is bound
> >into the front with the signatures.
>
> Argh.  You would put this out two weeks after I go on disability.
>
> Anyway, trying to justify buying three products I already own to my wife
> would result in temperatures similar to those found on Pluto.
>
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Don't justify, rationalize. If that doesn't work swoon a little, then make her
go whoo-whoo. Works like a charm. ;)


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 26 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Message-ID: <16f.cbfbaed.29fb394e@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>>     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>> only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
>> goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
officer."
>
>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
TOS.

Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 18:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 26 17:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEINDMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <3CCA95A1.17493.79C160@localhost>

On 26 Apr 2002 at 14:38, Swordy wrote:

> He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't
> even know it was happening. 

Interesting. I use Pegasus and haven't had any complaints about that 
sort of thing. I found it really easy to turn off all the non 7-bit 
ASCII stuff.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 18:54:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri Apr 26 17:54:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Bruce Johnson writes:
>Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here,
>comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.
>
>You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via
>your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of
>false positives and false negatives.
>
>That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously,
>which means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched
>erroneously.

OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics, so
please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the odds
that the system will think I am? And if I am in the database, what are the
odds that the system will fail to recognize me?



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 19:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri Apr 26 18:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20020426070904.349CA27AFF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270302500.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Matthew Bond writes:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>
>>That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
>>emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.
>
>And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that IMTU
>while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
>calculable duration.

Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_ TU,
but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the OTU.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 19:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri Apr 26 18:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
References: <20020425052154.B00C227A9C@mail.travellercentral.com> <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC9FD69.B9D10187@premier.net>


David Smart wrote:
> 
> Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> very, very large capital ships?
> 
> I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
> spinal mounts.
> 
> I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
> sharing.
> 
> By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
> TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

I forwarded copies of three TL-15 battleships to David Smart. 
_Montana_, a 500,000 dton NPAW-armed ship; _Jean Bart_, a meson-armed
variant of _Montana_; and _Shiva_, a 1,000,000 dton NPAW-armed
behemoth.  All of these ships have been posted to the TML in the past.

Now, does anyone want me to repost them to the list?  Alternately, does
anyone simply want a copy sent to them?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 19:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 26 18:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020427114011.A16950@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics,
> so please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the
> odds that the system will think I am?

That depends upon the threshold they set, the lighting conditions, the
degree of similarity you have to the closest people in the database,
what you're wearing around your head and/or face, whether you've got a
cold (or whether the people in the database had one!), and many other
factors.  Then add in the probability that your image is in the
database by mistake.

You could think of 4% as being the *minimum* chance you'll be
misidentified as a miscreant.


> And if I am in the database, what are the odds that the system will
> fail to recognize me?

See all of the above, and add in whether you're actually trying to
avoid detection.  If it's raining, water on the face is probably an
excellent way to throw off feature detection; most contour-detection
systems respond *very* badly to having numerous glints in the salient
regions.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 21:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 20:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
In-Reply-To: <3CC9DCEE.8BAC6647@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426145538.009eabf0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426200839.009f7940@mindspring.com>

At 07:04 PM 4/26/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Don't justify, rationalize. If that doesn't work swoon a little, then make her
>go whoo-whoo. Works like a charm. ;)

Remember that I'm currently writing.. this means that our office is covered 
in piles of books, notes, and things labeled "Do not move this! Penalty is 
death or six hours of Dylan on the stereo! - The Genius"  The monitor has 
about three dozen cryptic Post-It notes with things like "D. Colhoun - 
stats? b-date?"  "Template for Flor." and "Rewrite K, L and M" (which is 
amusing when asked me why I was re-writing three Muni Metro lines.. )Also, 
her time on the computer is being interrupted by me racing in from  other 
rooms shouting "Start Word!  Move!  Must write sidebar!"  (Most of the time 
I get these bursts of inspiration in the shower...)

In short, her tolerance of GURPS, Traveller, and me are at low points right 
now.  :)

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                    - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 22:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr 26 21:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270302500.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <001d01c1eda0$cf53a400$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 2:11 AM
Subject: [TML] Re: Assumptions in Piracy Exercise


> Matthew Bond writes:
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> >
> >>That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
> >>emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.
> >
> >And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that
IMTU
> >while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
> >calculable duration.
>
> Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
> from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_ TU,
> but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the OTU.

Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump Duration
is unknowable until immediately prior to exit. And remember that DGP is not
Official Canon.

I can find no such reference in the books I find close to hand: Bk2, Bk5,
Gurps:Traveller... only a reference to the fact that jumps take respectively
1 week, 150-175 hours, and 168 hours +/- 0 to 10%...

And indeed, IMTU Jump duration is variable around 1 week. So show me where I
contradict canon. Just because my *interpretation* of the canon does not
coincide with yours does not necessarily mean that mine is any less valid,
even if many others share your view.

And in any case, the OTU explicitly includes piracy so surely any
interpretation of canon that aids in the existence of piracy must therefore
be welcomed with open arms under your apparent criteria for valid
discussion.

And If it transpires there is an explicit canon dictum that invalidates my
interpretation, then I offer my most profuse apologies for sullying the
value of this debate to you as a result of my asking how piracy could be
eradicated in my apparently perverse aberration of a traveller universe. I
will then henceforth only regale the list with verbatim quotation of
scripture^H^H^H^H canon no matter how internally inconsistent it may be! The
Gospel according to the Saint Marc is the very Word of God revealed to us
and I shall blaspheme no more...

Or not.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 22:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 21:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b8ee2476727f@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20426.212105.4Q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 2:35 PM -0400 4/25/02, Mark Urbin wrote:
>>Follow it with a 1% tax on art books, art supplies, and the sale of 
>>art (records, tapes, movie tickets, paintings, etc.) to fund federal 
>>art projects.
>
> I'm not sure these sort of things are such a bad idea.  It would tie 
> the projects in better with their constituencies.  For example, the 
> SF tax would give NASA funding from a source that puts a priority on 
> its activities and give those who are interested in space research 
> more results.  (And people are more tolerant of taxes that go to 
> specific things they support).

And just *how* long do you think it'd be before the money was diverted
to pet projects of influential Congress critters?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 23:01:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 22:01:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20426.212031.6T4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
>> plan
>> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
>> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
>> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
>> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
>> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
>> to "space,
>> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
>
> Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want to help make
> those dreams come true.

Then why is the money going to NASA?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 00:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 23:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <20020426080850.A14241@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20426.224425.6p0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Actually, it's the method ised by floppy *and* hard disk controllers
>> for just about everything. GCR and all the rest of that was only used
>> by Apple and Commodore.
>
> Yes, and wasn't even used in the Commodore Amiga.  It *could* read and
> write GCR, but at single density.  (The GCR encoding method looks
> better on paper, 4 bits out of 5, but is inherently lower-density for
> a given magnetic coercivity of medium.)
>
>
>> No, at the *hardware* level, it's still sectors and tracks.
>
> Not even that: at the *hardware* level, it's a sequence of magnetic
> polarity changes.  Software (or firmware) groups them into sectors and
> tracks.  The Amiga didn't have a firmware sector decoder; it read
> tracks in as '0' for no polarity change at the appropriate time, and
> '1' if there was.  The MFM decoding, sector recognition, and error
> checking was done in software -- by the CPU normally, but I wrote a
> driver that used the "Agnes" GPU instead.

Well, the FM/MFM decoding is part of the FDC *chip* ever since the WD
1771 chip in 1977.

>> *If* Commodore had used FM and MFM encoding on the disks, rather than
>> GCR (basicly a different way of modulating the signal that represents
>> the bitstream on the media), then all it'd take to read a C-64 disk on
>> a PC would be some fancy software. 
>
> As it is, most modern FDD controllers have MFM decoding and sector
> recognition in firmware or hardware, so you can't do GCR reading
> without changing chips.  However: there are software tricks by which
> you can read *most* low-density GCR in an MFM drive (as in recover 90%
> or so of the bits) so long as the drive hardware isn't too "smart" and
> refuses to read what it thinks is a damaged sector.  Lower-density GCR
> comes out with a predictable pattern of bits after MFM 'decoding'.
> The only problem is loss of synchronization in low-quality drives.

Well, as I noted, I have an old CopyIIPC option board. It goes between
the drive and the FDC board.

> I believe the Mac uses variable-speed drive hardware as well as GCR,
> so this trick won't work with Mac disks.  (At least, they did 10 years
> ago when I last played around with these things!)

Well, as I recall, the CopyIIPC board can read Macs somehow.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 03:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Apr 27 02:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk> <20020427114011.A16950@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <003601c1edd1$23d16dc0$3d9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


>
> See all of the above, and add in whether you're actually trying to
> avoid detection.  If it's raining, water on the face is probably an
> excellent way to throw off feature detection; most contour-detection
> systems respond *very* badly to having numerous glints in the salient
> regions.
>

The way a person moves is as distinctive as a fingerprint. Visual systems
exist that can identify a person by their biomechanics, with about the same
failure rate.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 04:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr 27 03:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <003601c1edd1$23d16dc0$3d9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk> <20020427114011.A16950@freeman.little-possums.net> <003601c1edd1$23d16dc0$3d9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020427203514.D17780@freeman.little-possums.net>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> The way a person moves is as distinctive as a fingerprint. Visual
> systems exist that can identify a person by their biomechanics, with
> about the same failure rate.

It seems much progress has been made in the last year or so, then.
The most recent time I looked at them, they required sensors or
reflectors to be attached at defined positions on the body for any
reasonable rate of success at all.  Has that requirement been
eliminated?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 05:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 04:12:02 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
Message-ID: <d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163@aol.com>

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In a message dated 4/26/02 11:16:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gridlore@mindspring.com writes:


> At 10:49 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry 
> > (copyright 1968)
> >
> >     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
> > only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
> > goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
> > Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
> officer."
> 
> An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
> TOS.
> 
> Of course, it goes along nicely with ST's socialist view.. in the Soviet 
> military all the technical jobs were held by officers.
> 
> 

I disagree that the use of the titles "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS implies 
that there were enlisted personnel on the Constitution class starships of 
that era. Roddenberry said in the book cited earlier that there were no 
enlisted onboard the ENTERPRISE. The references to "yeoman" and "chief" 
probably meant the jobs they held aboard the ENTERPRISE rather than their 
actual rank. 

Let us not forget that in the context of TOS we are talking about 
approximately I believe 12 to 13 ships with crews between 200 to 430 
personnel, upward to 5,000 + personnel out of an organization that was 
staffing assumedly a fleet of support ships and a dozen or more full service 
bases, and according to one TOS episode up to 1,000 outposts and/or space 
stations. As pointed out earlier, the ENTERPRISE and her sister ships were 
supposed to be the elite of the elite. I do not find it unbelievable that we 
would have strictly "commissioned officers" staff such vessels under those 
conditions. Lets look at Chief O'Brien too, he did not become and official 
enlisted man until he stepped down from his vaulted position on the 
ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on Deep Space Nine. Now admittedly there is 
nothing canon saying that a person can move between so-called enlisted 
positions and commissioned officers positions during their career (although 
it even happens in real life - I new a guy in Korea that was a captain in the 
army reserve, went active as noncommissioned officer) but if only the best 
are crewing the starships, then maybe a person in the enlighted 24th century 
Starfleet could have the extra prestige of being "commissioned" when in space 
but "enlisted" when assigned to mundane duties station or planet side. 

Who knows? I certainly do not, but I resist the natural tendency to 
automatically assume that Starfleet is a 19th/20th century military 
bureaucracy and not a fluid, enlightened civil service organization that 
celebrates diversity and individual accomplishment. 


Bob Range
"The Human Adventure is just beginning." Gene Roddenberry, 1979

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 4/26/02 11:16:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gridlore@mindspring.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">At 10:49 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
<BR>&gt; From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield &amp; Gene Roddenberry 
<BR>&gt; (copyright 1968)
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
<BR>&gt; only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
<BR>&gt; goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
<BR>&gt; Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer."
<BR>
<BR>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS.
<BR>
<BR>Of course, it goes along nicely with ST's socialist view.. in the Soviet 
<BR>military all the technical jobs were held by officers.
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>I disagree that the use of the titles "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS implies that there were enlisted personnel on the Constitution class starships of that era. Roddenberry said in the book cited earlier that there were no enlisted onboard the ENTERPRISE. The references to "yeoman" and "chief" probably meant the jobs they held aboard the ENTERPRISE rather than their actual rank. 
<BR>
<BR>Let us not forget that in the context of TOS we are talking about approximately I believe 12 to 13 ships with crews between 200 to 430 personnel, upward to 5,000 + personnel out of an organization that was staffing assumedly a fleet of support ships and a dozen or more full service bases, and according to one TOS episode up to 1,000 outposts and/or space stations. As pointed out earlier, the ENTERPRISE and her sister ships were supposed to be the elite of the elite. I do not find it unbelievable that we would have strictly "commissioned officers" staff such vessels under those conditions. Lets look at Chief O'Brien too, he did not become and official enlisted man until he stepped down from his vaulted position on the ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on Deep Space Nine. Now admittedly there is nothing canon saying that a person can move between so-called enlisted positions and commissioned officers positions during their career (although it even happens in real life - I new a guy in Korea that was a captain in the army reserve, went active as noncommissioned officer) but if only the best are crewing the starships, then maybe a person in the enlighted 24th century Starfleet could have the extra prestige of being "commissioned" when in space but "enlisted" when assigned to mundane duties station or planet side. 
<BR>
<BR>Who knows? I certainly do not, but I resist the natural tendency to automatically assume that Starfleet is a 19th/20th century military bureaucracy and not a fluid, enlightened civil service organization that celebrates diversity and individual accomplishment. 
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Brush Script" LANG="0"><I>Bob Range</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="BernhardFashion BT" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Brush Script" LANG="0">"The Human Adventure is just beginning." Gene Roddenberry, 1979</I></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 05:15:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat Apr 27 04:15:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest (yes, just the digest!)
In-Reply-To: <20020425183523.109AF27990@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c1eddc$a474f180$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

The digest is back to not doing anything to MIME'd messages. I've noticed a
few coming through with all the HTML in it, but recently a couple of
messages have come through with attachments encoded so comprehensively that
the message is incomprehensible.

As an example, here's a message from Shadowcat that I've just come across
from in the digest...

> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #443 - 23 msgs
<Snip>
> Message: 18
> From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:12:24 -0500
> Subject: [TML] whoops, heres the ship
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> Content-description: Mail message body
>
>
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-disposition: inline
> Content-description: Attachment information.
>
> The following section of this message contains a file attachment
> prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
> If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system,
> you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
>
>    ---- File information -----------
>      File:  TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class Commerce Raider.htm
>      Date:  20 Mar 2001, 21:38
>      Size:  4748 bytes.
>      Type:  HTML-text
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736
> Content-type: Text/HTML; name="TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class
> Commerce Raider.htm"
> Content-disposition: attachment; filename="TL12 800-ton
> Chameleon-class Commerce Raider.htm"
> Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64
>
> PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcm
> Fuc2l0aW9u

<Snipped lots of BASE64 encoded stuff>

> eXJpZ2h0IKkgMjAwMCBieSBDVCBDb252ZXJzaW9uDQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo=
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736--
>

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi                      AndyLong@BigPond.com
 United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
                                +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 05:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat Apr 27 04:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Missed digest No. 438
Message-ID: <000701c1eddf$23468a80$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

Could some friendly soul please send me a copy of digest number 438?

Thanks in advance, Andy

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi                      AndyLong@BigPond.com	   	
 United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
                                +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260858570.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <3CCA8AF0.23335.3C507B0@localhost>

<snip>
>  Policing the area is a problem for cig smokers. The cigar smokers I knew
> would save the stub. Don'T remember the correct word. I smoked a pipe and
> all I needed to do was spead and cover the ash.

The word for the remains at the bottom of the pipe is "dottle".

Sinbad Sam
Former Pipe Smoker

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 10:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <b9.1fb0d3cc.29fc3384@aol.com>

John Groth writes:

>I forwarded copies of three TL-15 battleships to David Smart. 
>_Montana_, a 500,000 dton NPAW-armed ship; _Jean Bart_, a meson-armed
>variant of _Montana_; and _Shiva_, a 1,000,000 dton NPAW-armed
>behemoth.  All of these ships have been posted to the TML in the past.
>
>Now, does anyone want me to repost them to the list?  Alternately, does
>anyone simply want a copy sent to them?

And disrupt the TML's carefully smothered signal-to-noise ratio? Are you Mad?

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 14:24:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 27 13:24:06 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/27/02 4:11 AM, Olegamer@aol.com at Olegamer@aol.com wrote:
(Note:  I had to de-style this text, so quoting is ugly.  Please use plain
text on this list)


<quote>
I disagree that the use of the titles "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS implies
that there were enlisted personnel on the Constitution class starships of
that era. Roddenberry said in the book cited earlier that there were no
enlisted onboard the ENTERPRISE. The references to "yeoman" and "chief"
probably meant the jobs they held aboard the ENTERPRISE rather than their
actual rank. 
</quote>

I think that is should be remembered that Roddenberry came out of
commercial aviation IIRC.  An airliner, or a modern spacecraft is a very
different beast than a long duration exploration and paramilitary craft.
The 'enlisted' part of the crews in each essentially stay on the ground
while the officer pilots operate the vessel on short term flights.

I think RAH got it right when he used his own naval background is laying out
the crew structure of a star ship.  It more correctly reflects the type of
personnel and their duties aboard ship.

One also has to consider that Hollywood is a very different place.  Their
understanding of 'rank' is pretty detached from the real world.  After all,
while a directory may 'command' a TV program or movie, a 'star' can derail
to whole process if he or she doesn't get what they want.  So there's a
built in fiction that everybody is equally important and necessary, and that
no one is really above someone else (excluding extras, of course, who aren't
really people anyway)

<quote>
Let us not forget that in the context of TOS we are talking about
approximately I believe 12 to 13 ships with crews between 200 to 430
personnel, upward to 5,000 + personnel out of an organization that was
staffing assumedly a fleet of support ships and a dozen or more full service
bases, and according to one TOS episode up to 1,000 outposts and/or space
stations. As pointed out earlier, the ENTERPRISE and her sister ships were
supposed to be the elite of the elite.
</quote>

Why is this germane?  The SAS, Delta Force and other military elite units
are the creme de la creme of their respective armies.  They still reflect
the same rank structure as the military at large.  True, there are no
privates, but the enlisted still make up the majority of these units and do
the actual real work.

I think that al lot of this confusions is caused by most civilians view NCOs
and enlisted as 'not as good as' officers.  They don't understand the
difference between the two and their roles. Civilians, when they picture
themselves in uniform, almost invariably see themselves as officers.  The
truth is that many wouldn't like it.  My own experience is that as an
officer, you miss out on a lot of the 'fun'.  You are now an planner,
administrator and manager once you get past the lowest ranks.  The Buck
sergeants, corporals and specialists get to do all the fun stuff like shoot
the machine guns, pull the cannon lanyards and such  You never see Rambo or
those other elite commando types doing paperwork, writing evaluations and
all that crap.  Stuff I spent a lot of time doing after I was comissioned.

<quote>
I do not find it unbelievable that we would have strictly "commissioned
officers" staff such vessels under those conditions. Lets look at Chief
O'Brien too, he did not become and official enlisted man until he stepped
down from his vaulted position on the ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on
Deep Space Nine. 
</quote>

Again, I think this show a misunderstanding of what officers actually do in
the service (The exception being pilots, although the Army has Warrant
Officers for that.)  And I recall at least on episode of TNG, "Drumhead"
that involved the court martial of an enlisted crewman of the Enterprise, so
there must be some enlisted.

<quote>
Now admittedly there is nothing canon saying that a person can move between
so-called enlisted positions and commissioned officers positions during
their career (although it even happens in real life - I new a guy in Korea
that was a captain in the army reserve, went active as noncommissioned
officer) 
</quote>

This has to do with how long the person had been inactive.  When I was in
the 104th TNG, we has a lot of Drill Sergeants who were former officers
during Vietnam who got back into the reserves to earn those pensions.

<quote>
but if only the best are crewing the starships, then maybe a person in the
enlighted 24th century Starfleet could have the extra prestige of being
"commissioned" when in space but "enlisted" when assigned to mundane duties
station or planet side.
</quote>

See my comments about elite above.  Why do civilians view officers as being
'better' than enlisted.  They're not.  They just are different.  Someone has
to do the planning, paperwork and administration.  Somebody also has to do
the actual work.  

<quote>
Who knows? I certainly do not, but I resist the natural tendency to
automatically assume that Starfleet is a 19th/20th century military
bureaucracy and not a fluid, enlightened civil service organization that
celebrates diversity and individual accomplishment.
</quote>

I attempt not to gag.  Show me one single large organization that does not
have a rigidly defined hierarchy and still gets anything done.  Particularly
one that operates for long periods of time without interaction with society
at large.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 14:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Apr 27 13:49:02 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3r8l0j2cy.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
> And I recall at least on episode of TNG, "Drumhead" that involved
> the court martial of an enlisted crewman of the Enterprise, so there
> must be some enlisted.

Like so much else in ST, the existence of something as a plot device
in one episode does not mean that in exists at all in any other.  I
believe that the writers took Emerson's dictum a bit too seriously...

-- 
<+> Veni, vidi, vici
    Whinny, weedy, weaky
    Which sounds better?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 15:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Apr 27 14:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <b9.1fb0d3cc.29fc3384@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCENNGNAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Don't you mean noise to signal ration????


jml

And disrupt the TML's carefully smothered signal-to-noise ratio? Are you
Mad?

GC
_______________________________________________
T


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 15:45:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat Apr 27 14:45:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3CCB1CC6.60408@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
>>Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here,
>>comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.
>>
>>You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via
>>your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of
>>false positives and false negatives.
>>
>>That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously,
>>which means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched
>>erroneously.
> 
> 
> OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics, so
> please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the odds
> that the system will think I am? And if I am in the database, what are the
> odds that the system will fail to recognize me?

Same odds, no matter what: 1 in 25.

Leonard posted these numbers earlier, but here goes.

Assumption: you have a population of 10000 people, who may or may not be 
part of a database of 50 bad guys. (0.5% of the population)

4% failure rate means that in 4% of the cases, software fails to 
discriminate properly. (they did not give separate false positive and 
false egative error rates)

If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
member.

10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
correctly ID'ed.

50 bad guys * 0.04 = 2 false negatives in 10,000 examinations. 48 
correctly ID'ed

The only way to decrease the number of innocent people accused is either 
to increase the accuracy or increase the criminal population :-/

Notice, this analysis cannot really show how many criminals you will 
catch, becasue we don't know the distribution of criminals in the 
scanned population.

The above analysis actually assumes that ALL of the criminals in the DB 
are present in the scanned population. You are still id'in nearly one 
innocent person for every criminal caught. 40 vs 48, and 2 got away!

If, as appears to be the case, criminals avoid areas where such 
surveillance occurs, then the ratio of innocent vs criminal ID's goes up.

This system goes into effect...the criminals learn quickly. Say 80% 
start avoiding this area.

That means you're down to 10 crooks in the population. Of these 0.2 will 
get through...it's hard to say, most of the time you'll catch 'em all.

Now you have a ratio of 40 innocents to 10 crooks, you're dealing with 4 
times the innocent population caught in your dragnet.

As you increase the surveillance population, *unless* you increase your 
database correspondingly, you will get fewer and fewer returns for your 
efforts.

If *everyone* is in the database, then you will reduce that ratio 
Innocent:Crook to the error rate of your system.

Alas, increasing that database is far too easy these days...many states 
are using digitized photgraphs on their drivers licenses. In the test 
case in Flroda, when they scanned everyone coming in to Tampa Stadium 
(for the superboowl? The Orange Bowl...some bowl game) they used, as 
their Database, the entire florida drivers license DB.

Instant Police State. Just add technology.

Bruce




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 17:24:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 16:24:10 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
Message-ID: <bc.25ad7503.29fc8cd1@aol.com>

In a message dated 27/04/02 21:28:01 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


Again, I think this show a misunderstanding of what officers actually do in
the service (The exception being pilots, although the Army has Warrant
Officers for that.)  And I recall at least on episode of TNG, "Drumhead"
that involved the court martial of an enlisted crewman of the Enterprise, so
there must be some enlisted.


A medical technician. Although this implies an enlisted man it is conceivable 
that medical technicians are officers in the ST universe.

Of course this doesn't mean that the whole ST approach to rank isn't a load 
of old dingoes kidneys.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 18:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 27 17:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3CCB1CC6.60408@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>> Bruce Johnson writes:
>> 
>>>Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here,
>>>comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.
>>>
>>>You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via
>>>your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of
>>>false positives and false negatives.
>>>
>>>That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously,
>>>which means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched
>>>erroneously.
>> 
>> 
>> OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics, so
>> please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the odds
>> that the system will think I am? And if I am in the database, what are the
>> odds that the system will fail to recognize me?
>
> Same odds, no matter what: 1 in 25.
>
> Leonard posted these numbers earlier, but here goes.
>
> Assumption: you have a population of 10000 people, who may or may not be 
> part of a database of 50 bad guys. (0.5% of the population)
>
> 4% failure rate means that in 4% of the cases, software fails to 
> discriminate properly. (they did not give separate false positive and 
> false egative error rates)
>
> If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
> are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
> member.
>
> 10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
> correctly ID'ed.

Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives. 

> 50 bad guys * 0.04 = 2 false negatives in 10,000 examinations. 48 
> correctly ID'ed

> The above analysis actually assumes that ALL of the criminals in the DB 
> are present in the scanned population. You are still id'in nearly one 
> innocent person for every criminal caught. 40 vs 48, and 2 got away!

No, you've IDed 8 1/3 innocent people for each criminal caught. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 18:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 17:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <20020427.170606.-112869.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

on 4/27/02 4:11 AM, Olegamer@aol.com at Olegamer@aol.com wrote:
<quote>
I do not find it unbelievable that we would have strictly "commissioned
officers" staff such vessels under those conditions. Lets look at Chief
O'Brien too, he did not become and official enlisted man until he stepped
down from his vaulted position on the ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on
Deep Space Nine. 
</quote>

Well, after a simple web search for startrek enterprise, then a scroll
down to O'Brien, I came up with his stats. It doesn't matter what Gene R.
intended, there were enlisted personnel onboard. See below.

   Miles O`Brien
Chief of Operations  

PERSONNEL FILE: O'Brien, Miles Edward
**Includes summary updates, addenda through SD 52999 (2375) 
Played By: Colm Meany
Rank: Chief petty officer, senior chief specialist
Current assignment: Professor of Engineering, Starfleet Academy;
previously, Chief of Operations, Deep Space Nine
Full Name: Miles Edward O'Brien
Year of birth: September, 2328
Place of birth: Killarney, Ireland, Earth
Parents: Mr. and Mrs. Michael O'Brien (mother died 2368; father remarried
2369)
Marital status: Married Keiko Ishikawa in 2367 in Ten-Forward, U.S.S.
Enterprise
Children: One daughter, Molly, born 2368; a son, Kirayoshi, born 2373
Quarters: Currently relocating to Earth from residence at Deep Space Nine
(several cities under consideration)
Security clearance: Level 1


Starfleet Career Summary 

2345 -- Enrolled in Starfleet Academy.

2346 -- Enlisted as a non-commissioned officer in Starfleet.

2347 -- As young crewman posted to NCC-57295 U.S.S. Rutledge under Capt.
Ben Maxwell, was decorated after clash with Cardassians on Setlik III and
re-assigned by Maxwell as a bridge tactical officer.

2364 -- After serving on two more ships in the last two years,
transferred to new U.S.S. Enterprise under Captain Jean-Luc Picard as
relief flight control officer in command duty division and later as
security in operations division.

2365 -- Re-assigned at chief petty officer rank to Enterprise transporter
chief, usually posted in Transporter Room 3.

2369 -- Accepted offer as chief of operations at Deep Space Nine, onetime
Cardassian mining station, under Cmdr. Ben Sisko.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 20:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Apr 27 19:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
Message-ID: <3CCB57F5.D59D4658@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>
>http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd
>
>>More GT ships and a load of High Guard designs are uploading... oop, >>done!

>Very nice!

Very nice indeed! And a GT version of my Zhilqatij class Strike Cruiser!
Now I feel honored...

"I would like to thank the members of the Academy..."

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: didn't get Digest No 438
Message-ID: <000b01c1ee60$b56ee7a0$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

I have now received copies of this digest. Thank you to all who sent them

Andy

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi                      AndyLong@BigPond.com	  	
 United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
                                +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
In-Reply-To: <20020427.170606.-112869.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c1ee61$8a7d2420$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Well, after a simple web search for startrek enterprise, then a scroll
> down to O'Brien, I came up with his stats. It doesn't matter what Gene R.
> intended, there were enlisted personnel onboard.  ...

And here I thought this was all common knowledge.

Roddenberry intended that all starfleet personel on the Enterprise were
"officers".  While this made no sense at all, this was the stated intention.
This applied through all of TOS and into TNG.

The best example of this was (appropriately enough), Miles O'Brien.

When Colm Meany's character was first introduced in TNG he was an officer
and wore the pips of a Lt on his collar.  This was consistent through the
first 2-3 seasons.

Later, when the post-Roddenberry powers decided to start fleshing out
the character, he was officially named and made enlisted.  (In one
particular episode, the one with Worf's human parents, he is specifically
identified as such.)  O'Brien was enlisted long before he ever transfered
to DS9.  Note that the character was never demoted in a story or
anything, the O'Brien's character was just retroactively "changed" to
have always been enlisted.

So, we are left with the situation that while Roddenberry intended for
only officers to serve aboard the Enterprise, the later powers (Berman?)
decided that the Enterprise should have enlisted personel after all, and
the change was made.

What this all has to do with Traveller, I dunno.  Sorry for wasting
everyone's time, and I am embarrassed to admit this much knowledge of
Star Trek, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:10:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:10:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020427111811.41F13279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Matthew Bond writes:
>From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>>Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
>>from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_ TU,
>>but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the OTU.
>
>Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump Duration
>is unknowable until immediately prior to exit.

It may or may not be known from the moment you enter jump, but it is
implicit in the game mechanic that fixes the jump duration by a single
random die roll that you can't figure it out until it is to late to abort
the jump. Otherwise ships would keep making the calculations (at 20
minutes a pop) until they found a solution that would take them to their
destination in less than the (so-called) average time of 7 days.

>I can find no such reference in the books I find close to hand: Bk2, Bk5,
>Gurps:Traveller... only a reference to the fact that jumps take respectively
>1 week, 150-175 hours, and 168 hours +/- 0 to 10%...

>And in any case, the OTU explicitly includes piracy so surely any
>interpretation of canon that aids in the existence of piracy must therefore
>be welcomed with open arms under your apparent criteria for valid
>discussion.

Of all the pirates that I can recall that the OTU explicitly includes,
none of them make a living preying on interplanetary craft[*]. Even if
your scheme turned out to be workable, it still wouldn't explain the
pirates that (according to the ship encounter tables and various
adventures) lie in wait for PCs when they jump into a system as close to
the mainworld as they can possibly get.

[*] Though I suppose the ones in the character generation tables may.


Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:47:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:47:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
In-Reply-To: <000a01c1ee61$8a7d2420$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEJLDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Then the whole thing with the yeoman and the captain had nothing to do with
officer/enlisted fraternization? Blows _my_ mind.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mike West
>
> And here I thought this was all common knowledge.
>
> Roddenberry intended that all starfleet personel on the Enterprise were
> "officers".  While this made no sense at all, this was the stated
> intention.
> This applied through all of TOS and into TNG.
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 22:08:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr 27 21:08:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Canon and Jump Duration (was Re: Piracy assumptions)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <000e01c1ee6a$4f48ce00$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 4:09 AM
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions


> Matthew Bond writes:
> >From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
> >
> >>Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
> >>from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_
TU,
> >>but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the
OTU.
> >
> >Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump
Duration
> >is unknowable until immediately prior to exit.
>
> It may or may not be known from the moment you enter jump, but it is
> implicit in the game mechanic that fixes the jump duration by a single
> random die roll that you can't figure it out until it is to late to abort
> the jump. Otherwise ships would keep making the calculations (at 20
> minutes a pop) until they found a solution that would take them to their
> destination in less than the (so-called) average time of 7 days.

Hence my stating that the roll applies to any jump from point A to Point B
within the next few hours. Astrogation-0 IMTU gives exactly the same result
(Jump Duration unknown until committed to Jump). Astrogation-1 lets the
astrogator see the resulting duration prior to final commitment to jump.
Astrogation 2+ allows the astrogator to calculate jump duration for jumps in
the subsequent (Astrogation Skill)-1 Jump 'windows', where each window
encompasses a few hours.

How about you removing your CanonVision(TM) Blinkers and considering this
variation on Jump Duration and Astrogation on its own merits. Does it
'break' canon? Not particularly IMHO. Does it enhance canon? Well, it
certainly allows Fleets to arrive together... and makes Skilled Astrogators
worth having... both of which I feel are useful.

You seem to feel that being able to calculate a jump duration is
'uncanonical', where all that I can find in canon is that the duration
varies at approximately a week +- 10% or so. Canon doesn't (in the reference
I have to hand anyway) make any comment other than this. It doesn't
explicitly say that two ships jumping from point A to Point B at the same
time make different rolls. Most people seem to assume that this is implied,
but I would simply say that the rules are assuming the players are on a
single ship and are only concerned with their own particular Jump Duration.

If I as GM choose to apply this same time to all ships jumping between the
same two points within a similar timeframe, I am free to do so. I could even
state that a jump between two given systems ALWAYS takes the same time, and
the roll is just to determine this time the first time the players jump
between those two systems. Or I could say that all jumps have random
durations all the time (as you and many others feel is the case). All three
of these options is just as valid in canon, as all canon states is that not
all Jumps take the same time, and that the variation is within set limits
around one week.

Now if you want to persist in deriding me for being 'uncanonical' please
direct me to a valid reference that invalidates my assumptions. It may be
that it is in some supplement or magazine article I do not possess. But just
because it is different to the way you have always done things doesn't
necessarily make it uncanonical, if it covers an aspect of Traveller that is
not explicitly covered by canon.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 22:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Kim)
Date: Sat Apr 27 21:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>
References: <20020424063707.194DD27A34@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <p0510150db8f1258b9cb4@[10.0.1.10]>

At 6:54 AM -0500 4/24/02, David Smart wrote:

>An interesting sidenote for Traveller is the experience on one of the
>many
>Apollo flights. Apollo 8, I think. 'Twould seem one of the astronauts
>had
>a bout with some food that didn't agree with him. It hit when they had
>been
>in orbit preparatory to leaving for the moon. No one informed Mission
>Control and they were told to proceed (lose out on going to the moon
>'cause
>of the trots? As if!).

	Frank Borman, the commander of Apollo 8 was violently sick 
early in the mission.  Started throwing up and in the midst of 
retching had massive diarrhea.  Apparently, the cleanup was rather 
unpleasant :).  A big blob of vomit hit Jim Lovell in the chest.

	Borman didn't want to announce to the world over the open 
loop that he had been ill, so they recorded a message on tape that 
got dumped with the spacecraft telemetry.  After the tape had been 
listened to, there was serious discussion of canceling the mission. 
The surgeons were worried that whatever Borman had might be passed to 
the rest of the crew.

	In the end, it was decided to let the mission go through. 
Borman was feeling much better and it was too late to use the Service 
Module's engine to do a direct abort.  No matter what, Apollo 8 was 
going to go around the moon anyway so they might as well wait see how 
everyone was feeling when they went into orbit

	There's a good telling of this event in Chaikin's _A_Man_On_the_Moon_.

Space Nut Justin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 03:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeffrey Malone)
Date: Sun Apr 28 02:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Sickness and the Political Control of Information
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk> <000e01c1ee6a$4f48ce00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <001301c1ee93$5bbcfd40$4e7354d2@1338700057>

Followers of the TNS may have noted that the story of Jeffrey Long, ace
reporter revealing the truth (?) of Jump Sickness, has appeared in the G:T
timeline.  I have always been of the view that Jump Sickness is probably
more political than physiological in origin.  The reason?  The time edge
that control of a J-6 information network (versus a J-4 or less general
information network for Joe Public) gives any large interstellar state.
Noting that mis-jump may cause an effective jump well beyond J-6 (up to J-30
or J-36, IIRC, depending on rule set), I would wonder whether the average
duration of Jump Sickness is up to the 36 week timeframe.  Requiring the
absolute quarantine of the poor vicitms, I suspect.

The bottom line:  Jump Sickness has more to do with protecting the Imperial
body politic from destabilising uncontrolled information flows, than its
alleged victims.

Comments?

J.M. Malone


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 05:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 28 04:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <146.da76e8b.29fd3d17@aol.com>

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In a message dated 4/27/02 11:10:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mjwest@caddocourt.com writes:


> What this all has to do with Traveller, I dunno.  Sorry for wasting
> everyone's time, and I am embarrassed to admit this much knowledge of
> Star Trek, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.
> 
> Mike West
> 
> 

Thank you Mr. West for imputting your 2 credits, I for one enjoyed the 
clarification. 

Bob Range
aka Olegamer

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/27/02 11:10:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mjwest@caddocourt.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">What this all has to do with Traveller, I dunno. &nbsp;Sorry for wasting
<BR>everyone's time, and I am embarrassed to admit this much knowledge of
<BR>Star Trek, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.
<BR>
<BR>Mike West
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Thank you Mr. West for imputting your 2 credits, I for one enjoyed the clarification. 
<BR>
<BR>Bob Range
<BR>aka Olegamer</FONT></HTML>

--part1_146.da76e8b.29fd3d17_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 09:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 28 08:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
Message-ID: <200204281505.FEN01862@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Justin Kim <jlkim@mail.com>  
>After the tape had been listened to, there was serious 
>discussion of canceling the mission. 
>The surgeons were worried that whatever Borman had might be 
>passed to the rest of the crew.
>

The Intergalactic Laxative will get you from here to Mars....
________________
NO! Sentence first, verdict after!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 09:18:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Apr 28 08:18:12 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020428151458.60631.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

I think that al lot of this confusions is caused by
> most civilians view NCOs
> and enlisted as 'not as good as' officers.  They
> don't understand the
> difference between the two and their roles.
> Civilians, when they picture
> themselves in uniform, almost invariably see
> themselves as officers.
Well, this is just my two cents. Officers enjoy more
luxuries than enlisted men and are seen as less
expendable. C'mon , they get paid better get better
jobs and benefits,just better every thing from
uniforms to housing. The requirements are harder too. 
It's no wonder people think this.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 09:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 28 08:42:02 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <20020428151458.60631.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8F16629.58CB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/28/02 8:14 AM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> Well, this is just my two cents. Officers enjoy more
> luxuries than enlisted men and are seen as less
> expendable. C'mon , they get paid better get better
> jobs and benefits,just better every thing from
> uniforms to housing. The requirements are harder too.
> It's no wonder people think this.

I suppose so.  Just for the record, officers pay for their own uniforms and
meals. 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 11:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 10:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
>>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
>>member.
>>
>>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
>>correctly ID'ed.
> 
> 
> Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives. 

Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...

IAC, this only makes my later analysis much worse.

("Oh, waiter! We asked for an order of magnitude here!")

Bruce



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 11:53:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Apr 28 10:53:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Big Brother


> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> >>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you
> >>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a
> >>member.
> >>
> >>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960
> >>correctly ID'ed.
> >
> >
> > Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives.
>
> Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...
>
> IAC, this only makes my later analysis much worse.

Ok, this takes into account any given analysis... so what happens when the
system analyses several frames of the CCTV footage... The chances of the
same Innocent person being repeatedly misidentified as being in the database
surely falls, and similarly the chance of correctly identifying a criminal
as being in the database rises.

If the threshold for flagging a particular person as being worth further
investigation (and I would expect that the first level of investigation is
simply to get a human operator to look at the screen and compare the image
with that in the database...) is set to be say 7+ positives out of 10 frames
analysed, then the system can filter out many of the false positives and
false negatives before raising it to a higher level of investigation.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 12:01:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Sun Apr 28 11:01:08 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <200204281505.FEN01862@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204281059510.9237-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Justin Kim <jlkim@mail.com>  
> >After the tape had been listened to, there was serious 
> >discussion of canceling the mission. 
> >The surgeons were worried that whatever Borman had might be 
> >passed to the rest of the crew.
> >
> 
> The Intergalactic Laxative will get you from here to Mars....

OMG!!!  I know that song!!!

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 12:13:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 11:13:57 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204281059510.9237-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3CCC3B8E.503094B7@premier.net>


Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
<<snip>>

> > The Intergalactic Laxative will get you from here to Mars....
> 
> OMG!!!  I know that song!!!

Ah, so we have at least _two_ Donovan fans on the list....

I saw him live at a bar in Monterey, CA in 1985.  My roommate had a
Donovan concert poster from circa 1967 (IIRC, it was for a Donovan/H.P.
Lovecraft double-bill at the Fillmore West), so I brought it with me (my
roommate being under 21) and got it autographed.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 13:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Apr 28 12:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020428173927.27A3A27990@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Matthew Bond writes:
>From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>>Matthew Bond writes:
>>>Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump
>>Duration is unknowable until immediately prior to exit.
>>
>>It may or may not be known from the moment you enter jump, but it is
>>implicit in the game mechanic that fixes the jump duration by a single
>>random die roll that you can't figure it out until it is to late to abort
>>the jump. Otherwise ships would keep making the calculations (at 20
>>minutes a pop) until they found a solution that would take them to their
>>destination in less than the (so-called) average time of 7 days.
>
>Hence my stating that the roll applies to any jump from point A to Point B
>within the next few hours.

Ships getting long jump durations would still have the option of waiting
for the next jump 'window' and try again. This IS an addition to the
canonical jump mechanics. Not to mention that it won't actually help your
pirates much. They'll still have to find a jump window that just happens
to put them in the right spot at the right time. Say the first window
would put them at the intercept spot four hours too late and they
calculate that. So they wait for the next jump window and finds that now
they'll arrive six hours too early. So instead of one chance at really
lousy odds they get six or eight changes at really lousy odds. It's a
gain, but is it enough of a gain?

>Astrogation-0 IMTU gives exactly the same result (Jump Duration unknown
>until committed to Jump). Astrogation-1 lets the astrogator see the
>resulting duration prior to final commitment to jump. Astrogation 2+
>allows the astrogator to calculate jump duration for jumps in the
>subsequent (Astrogation Skill)-1 Jump 'windows', where each window
>encompasses a few hours.

The old 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absense' saw applies to
things that have not been dealt with at length in rules and adventures.
Something like what you can and cannot do with Astrogation skill has been
dealt with in detail and the absence of any mention of such abilities IS
evidence that it doesn't exist. In canon, that is.

>How about you removing your CanonVision(TM) Blinkers and considering this
>variation on Jump Duration and Astrogation on its own merits. Does it
>'break' canon? Not particularly IMHO. Does it enhance canon? Well, it
>certainly allows Fleets to arrive together... and makes Skilled Astrogators
>worth having... both of which I feel are useful.

I presume that you mean that it enhances the roleplaying potential of the
setting, not the canon. Without getting sidetracked into discussing just
how brilliant the idea is, let me say that IMO the prime function of
having a 'continuity bible' for a shared universe is to prevent authors
from messing up the setting by introducing pet ideas that may be perfectly
good ideas in their own right but would contradict previously published
information.

I'm not a fanatic about canon. If Marc came up with an absolutely amazingly
good idea for the Traveller setting that unfortunately required that he edit
out the Ancients retroactively, then I might accept that... if the idea was
truly amazing. But I think the bar is a lot higher when it comes to
contraditing the existing background than when it comes to introducing ideas
about previously untouched territory.

>You seem to feel that being able to calculate a jump duration is
>'uncanonical', where all that I can find in canon is that the duration
>varies at approximately a week +- 10% or so. Canon doesn't (in the reference
>I have to hand anyway) make any comment other than this.

I found a couple last night. On p. 92-93 of _MT:Imperial Encyclopedia_
there is a descrition/Referee's checklist of how to conduct a jump. Step 8
is to engage the jump drive. Step 9 has the ship entering jumpspace
whereupon the referee determines the jump duration. The text does not
indicate whether he informs the players about the duration immediately or
not. However, on p. 66 of _GT:Far Trader_ is an illustration of a crew
lounge during a jump. On the wall is a prominently displayed 'Elapsed jump
time' clock. I think that if the crew knew of the exact time of breakout,
that clock would display 'Time to breakout' instead. (And yes, I know that
illustrations have a lower evidence value than text, but if an
illustration doesn't contradict any text, I consider it valid).

On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of misjump
that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've misjumped as
the time stretches out past the estimated breakout time. If they knew
exactly when they were supposed to emerge, they'd know something was wrong
within a few minutes of passing that time. I _think_ is was somewhere in a
CT book, but I can't recall if it was rules or and adventure. I'll see if
I can dig it up. (If anyone else can provide a reference, please do so).

>If I as GM choose to apply this same time to all ships jumping between the
>same two points within a similar timeframe, I am free to do so. I could even
>state that a jump between two given systems ALWAYS takes the same time, and
>the roll is just to determine this time the first time the players jump
>between those two systems.

Of course you can. It's your universe. But would you be able to do so if
you were writing a Traveller adventure for official publication? I believe
not. (Not that it is my call to make, of course).

>...Or I could say that all jumps have random durations all the time (as
>you and many others feel is the case). All three of these options is just
>as valid in canon, as all canon states is that not all Jumps take the
>same time, and that the variation is within set limits around one week.

Even if that was true (which I don't agree with), only one of those three
options could be true for any particular universe. The moment someone uses
one of the options in an official adventure, BANG!, it's the way things
are, always have been, ad always will be in the OTU.

>Now if you want to persist in deriding me for being 'uncanonical' please
>direct me to a valid reference that invalidates my assumptions.

Well, I don't think I've derided you yet, so I can't persist. But take the
above two references as a start (of references, not of deriding). I'll see
if I can dig up more.

>But just because it is different to the way you have always done things
>doesn't necessarily make it uncanonical,

I agree. I've made mistakes before. I don't think I'm doing it now,
though.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 15:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 28 14:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>
References: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020429074417.A25504@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Ok, this takes into account any given analysis... so what happens when the
> system analyses several frames of the CCTV footage... The chances of the
> same Innocent person being repeatedly misidentified as being in the database
> surely falls, and similarly the chance of correctly identifying a criminal
> as being in the database rises.

No.  Repeating the same analysis on slightly different frames merely
spreads the error rates out worse still.

A more detailed analysis: the system is based on a "similarity" score.
In different frames (at different angles, lighting, etc), the score
will vary.  In particular, it will look like a "bell" as the person
being identified passes through their 'best' profile, with a large
amount of noise superimposed on the curve.

This will happen even for people not in the database, since even
innocent people's faces look more like that of a miscreant than the
back of their head does, or their face at a drastically different
angle.

Now, the 4% error quoted is for the best case: a clear shot of the
subject's face under good consistent lighting at about the same angle
as the shots in their database.  


> If the threshold for flagging a particular person as being worth
> further investigation is set to be say 7+ positives out of 10 frames
> analysed, then the system can filter out many of the false positives
> and false negatives before raising it to a higher level of
> investigation.

Unfortunately not.  If you do that, then yes, you drop the chance of
misidentifying an innocent somewhat.  However, you grossly drop the
chance of correctly identifying someone in the database -- you'll
virtually *never* have a full 7 frames with a high score.  So you have
to lower your threshold (a lot), consequently increasing the chance of
misidentifying innocents.  If you do the maths on the identification
curves, you'll see that this always ends up with a worse trade-off
than before.  Although it 'sharpens' the identification curve, it
sharpens the *noise* in the curve even more.


> (and I would expect that the first level of investigation is simply
> to get a human operator to look at the screen and compare the image
> with that in the database...)

This would help, but means you need to employ someone full-time to
compare the images.  Furthermore, there is going to be a large overlap
between what the computer misidentifies and what a human would -- the
suspect and database image do have similar faces, after all.  Humans
aren't known for being that accurate either.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Apr 28 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide
Message-ID: <003501c1eefe$04116fc0$85e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1EF06.32FC43C0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Traveller's Aide #1 seems to be receiving a warm welcome, and several =
more issues are in preparation.=20

However, we're still open to anyone interested in writing future =
volumes.

All Traveller's Aides will be "official" traveller material and thus =
compatible with all versions of the rules. Stats for  T20 and CT are =
included in all. The "Home" setting of T20 is year 1000, which is close =
enough to the late-golden-age CT setting that supplements can be =
compatible with both. We have a wish-list but we're also open to =
suggestions.=20

We particularly need adventures of the LBB sort right now, and these =
need not be set in the T20 "Home" setting of Gateway Domain. I.e. if you =
have an adventure for CT set in the Marches or the Rim, Lishun Sector in =
Year 0, or wherever, we'll consider it.=20

Mail me direct for more details.=20


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1EF06.32FC43C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Traveller's Aide #1 seems to be =
receiving a warm=20
welcome, and several more issues are in preparation. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>However, we're still open to anyone =
interested in=20
writing future volumes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>All Traveller's Aides will be =
"official" traveller=20
material and thus compatible with all versions of the rules. Stats =
for&nbsp; T20=20
and CT are included in all. The "Home" setting of T20 is year 1000, =
which is=20
close enough to the late-golden-age CT setting that supplements can be=20
compatible with both. We have a wish-list but we're also open to =
suggestions.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We particularly need adventures of the =
LBB sort=20
right now, and these need not be set in the T20 "Home" setting of =
Gateway=20
Domain. I.e. if you have an adventure for CT set in&nbsp;the Marches or =
the Rim,=20
Lishun Sector in Year 0, or wherever, we'll consider it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mail me direct for more details. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1EF06.32FC43C0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 16:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 15:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>
>> >>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you
>> >>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a
>> >>member.
>> >>
>> >>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960
>> >>correctly ID'ed.
>> >
>> >
>> > Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives.
>>
>> Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...
>>
>> IAC, this only makes my later analysis much worse.
>
> Ok, this takes into account any given analysis... so what happens when the
> system analyses several frames of the CCTV footage... The chances of the
> same Innocent person being repeatedly misidentified as being in the database
> surely falls, and similarly the chance of correctly identifying a criminal
> as being in the database rises.

The system *is* analyzing several frame, just to get *usable* data. 

Try a freeze frame on your VCR to see just how *bad* the resolution of
broadcast TV is. CCTV systems aren't any better. You have to
interpolate from several frames just to get enough detail. 

And the given error rate is most definitely *not* from analyzing a
single frame.

> If the threshold for flagging a particular person as being worth further
> investigation (and I would expect that the first level of investigation is
> simply to get a human operator to look at the screen and compare the image
> with that in the database...) is set to be say 7+ positives out of 10 frames
> analysed, then the system can filter out many of the false positives and
> false negatives before raising it to a higher level of investigation.

Again, you are completely off base with regards to how the analysis is
being done. It's *not* matching individual frames against *anything*.
It's using multiple frames to derive enough detauils to *attempt* a match.

It *has* to. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 16:03:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 15:03:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20428.143242.4c0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
>>>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
>>>member.
>>>
>>>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
>>>correctly ID'ed.
>> 
>> 
>> Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives. 
>
> Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...

It's just been too long since you used a slipstick. Getting the
decimals right there *mattered*. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 16:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 15:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fellow Travellers in Colorado
Message-ID: <3CCC740B.21C858AD@premier.net>

I'm going to be at Ft. Carson, CO, for a couple of months as I train up
for my upcoming Sinai tour.  According to Eris' TML roster, there are
three TMLers (past or present) in Colorado (John Lambert in Colorado
Springs, and Steve Deemer and Robert Uhl in Denver).

Any others out there?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Sickness and the Political Control of Information
In-Reply-To: <001301c1ee93$5bbcfd40$4e7354d2@1338700057>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk>
 <000e01c1ee6a$4f48ce00$52200050@matt>
 <001301c1ee93$5bbcfd40$4e7354d2@1338700057>
Message-ID: <m3elgzfn0r.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Jeffrey Malone" <nparker1971@ozemail.com.au> writes:
> 
> The bottom line: Jump Sickness has more to do with protecting the
> Imperial body politic from destabilising uncontrolled information
> flows, than its alleged victims.

I must disagree.  The impression I get from the TNS bulletins is that
jump sickness is denied to exist, due to the additional costs of trade
it would cause, and that Long has proof that it does.  But then, none
of the canon I've to hand mentions it.  Perhaps in some other fragment
it is explained that it is a known risk?

I also don't think that the Imperium would be locking up folks who
misjump great distances.  First of all, canon implies that the risks
of misjump are known both in magnitude and in frequency.  Secondly,
people would surely mention their imprisonment, unless brain-wiped.
Thirdly, how likely is it for an entire ship to be afflicted at once?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The fact that we have bodies is the oldest joke there is.  --C.S. Lewis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:03:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:03:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
In-Reply-To: <146.da76e8b.29fd3d17@aol.com>
References: <146.da76e8b.29fd3d17@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3adrnfmzb.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Olegamer@aol.com writes:

Emacs, at least, thinks that you wrote HTML.  Anyone have better
information?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the people of
the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own
arms.                            --Samuel Adams, brewer and patriot

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <m31yczfmrp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>
> Again, you are completely off base with regards to how the analysis
> is being done. It's *not* matching individual frames against
> *anything*.  It's using multiple frames to derive enough detauils to
> *attempt* a match.
> 
> It *has* to. 

Well, it has to unless the authorities mandate that eveyone approach
cameras in such a manner as to make the frames be identical to those
in the database.

`Comrade, approach the camera face-forward and stand still for 12
seconds!'

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
...a language is just an dialect with an army and a navy.
                                --Paul Tomblin, in a.s.r.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:10:04 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <B8F16629.58CB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8F16629.58CB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3662bfmwb.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> I suppose so.  Just for the record, officers pay for their own
> uniforms and meals.

And, at least in the Navy, at least when my father was in, their cooks
as well.  The best at the time were reputed to be Phillipino: not
overly expensive, but with an amazing command of culinary technique.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own
good, in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of
theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it.        --John Stuart Mill

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> 
> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> time.

Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
having an estimated breakout.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
                                                 --Mojo Nixon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk> <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3CCC847F.2ABA2927@premier.net>


"Robert Uhl " wrote:
> 
> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >
> > On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> > misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> > misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> > time.
> 
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

Ah, but passing the normal maximum by any significant amount should
start to worry you, regardless of your pre-calculated jump time.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk> <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020429093423.A25777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
[...suspecting misjump ...]
> Even passing further is no big deal.

Once you've got to the 98th percentile, you'd be having dark
suspicions.  The problem is that if the jump duration is known rather
precisely beforehand, the time between "all's well" and "oh my god,
we've misjumped" is rather too short for mere misgivings.


>  Indeed, without having an idea how long _this particular jump_ will
> be, there's no way of having an estimated breakout.

Of course there's an estimated breakout time: within 10% of 168 hours.
By the time you've reached the 99th percentile of that, the posterior
probability of misjump has increased 100-fold, and starting to look
comparably likely to merely a long but successful jump.

In the 'known duration' case specified, the time interval between the
99th and 100th percentiles for successful jumps is at least two orders
of magnitude shorter -- not enough time for vague suspicions and
speculations throughout the crew.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 17:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Population Modelling
In-Reply-To: <00e801c1cbc7$eea362a0$67da883e@fabian>
Message-ID: <20428.160746.5z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

I was catching up on old posts, and this jumped out at me...

In mail you write:

> As a mathematical exercise, I worked out that, assuming a free movement of
> populations (a false assumption), everyone is descended from everyone as
> of 500 years ago. This is based on teh fact that teh number of ancestors
> doubles every generation, but the total population decreases as you go
> back in time. Working out when teh two numbers are equal is a simple
> exercise...

Actually, there's a hidden assumption in there that destroys the idea.

The number of ancestors doubles each generation back *only* if there
are no common ancestors. With the current "rule" that first cousins
can't marry, but second cousins can, you can have common ancestors 3 or
4 generations back (I can't recall exactly how "second cousin" is
defined). 

Anybody who has done any detailed family trees that go back very far
will run into branches that cross this way.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 19:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Sun Apr 28 18:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <m31yczfmrp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <005d01c1ef1e$95858f20$9307b286@Shane>

Robert wrote:
> Well, it has to unless the authorities mandate that eveyone approach
> cameras in such a manner as to make the frames be identical to those
> in the database.
>
> `Comrade, approach the camera face-forward and stand still for 12
> seconds!'

You know, it strikes me that (barring Robert's suggestion above) this system
is stupidly easy to evade if you know where the cameras are, or even where
the cameras are likely to be.  Good luck to any system, automated or
otherwise, attempting to get a clear mugshot of someone who is trying not to
be recognized.  I'm not talking about pulling your jacket over your head, or
wearing a balaclava or anything silly like that.  Simply blowing your nose
on a handkerchief as you pass the camera; or looking down to brush something
off your shirt; or turning away to wave goodbye to someone.  There are
dozens of such stunts you can pull, and you can use a different one every
'checkpoint' you pass.  Maybe combine that with taking off your jacket
between checkpoints, and putting it back on after the next one to interfere
with the system identifying you by your clothes.

I think it comes back to the idea that a halfway intelligent criminal who
really doesn't want to be caught generally won't be caught.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- "And you're mo' smarter than the crooks on Miami Vice...
riiiight?"
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 19:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 28 18:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Population Modelling
In-Reply-To: <20428.160746.5z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <00e801c1cbc7$eea362a0$67da883e@fabian>
Message-ID: <3CCD4F3B.28144.D948ED@localhost>

On 28 Apr 2002 at 16:07, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> The number of ancestors doubles each generation back *only* if there
> are no common ancestors. With the current "rule" that first cousins
> can't marry, but second cousins can, you can have common ancestors 3 or
> 4 generations back (I can't recall exactly how "second cousin" is
> defined). 

Your second cousins are the children of your parents' first cousins.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 21:01:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 20:01:19 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
Message-ID: <3CCCB6E8.CF6883B@premier.net>

Yet another cruiser design from AuricTech, _Dido_ is primarily a killer
of smaller vessels, with 20 large NPAW linear bay weapons.

_Dido_, _Dido_ class Light Cruiser (FF&S v2)
Designed by AuricTech Shipyards

Statistics
Tons: 25000std ( SL Short Rnd Cylinder Hypersonic )
Dimensions: 125m x 62.1m x 62.1m
Volume: 350000m3
Mass (L/C): 324434t/311263t
Maintenance Points: 9989
Cargo: 200std (0/8 /Hdl:8x50ton)
Crew: 437/585
Cost: 29263.8 Mcr
Tech Level: 15
Size: 10

Electronics
Controls: Holographic, Standard automation. 24xFltComp (CM:0.2 CP:5.0).
4xFibComp
(CM:0.2 CP:5.0). Terrain following sensors (TF:570, NOE:190). Bridge.
Communications: 4xRadio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 8xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
1xMeson (1,000AU,
5MW).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (14 [50mkm], 0.05MW). 1xAEMS (12.5 [5mkm] LP, 50MW).
12xLIDAR
(15 [2mkm], 2.5MW).
ECM: 1xRadio Jammer (1,000AU, 0.4MW). 1xDecp. Jammer (12, 1.25MW).
1xPas. Jammer
(15, 0.63MW).
Signatures: Vis:-0.5, IR:0 (0 at 50801MW, -0.5 at 8100MW), Act:0, Neu:0,
Grav:2 (Military Black coating, Advanced IR masking, 1 level Stealth,
Neutrino masking)

Weaponry
1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750]
(LR)
20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
(LR)
20 x 15 Mj Quad Laser Turret (+6) 1/4-4-4-4 [4,800/10-10-10-10] (LR)
12xMissile Auto 1/8 ( /Mag:39 /MFD:500,000km) w/40 Cmd DL 1d6/2 6.0G12
1000AU

Additional Fire Control
2xBeam Master Fire Directors (0MW 500,000km)
2xMissile Master Fire Directors (0MW 500,000km)

Performance
4    Jump (2500std/pc fuel)
6/6.2     Maneuver (/Thruster:48265MW)
No Contra-grav
5000kph/5000kph Atmosphere (/Crus:3750kph/3750kph)
6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
10578.9   Fuel (/Scoop:3 /Purif:30,148MW)
580/20/150 Accomodations (Small stateroom/Large stateroom/Emergency Low
berth)
15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations for 600
crew)
6    G-Comp
18   Sandcasters ( /AV:70 /Cans:20)
715  Damper Screen (169MW)
715  Meson Screen (319.516MW)
100 [715] Armor, 52 Structure

Features
250xAirlock
4xDocking Umbilical
1xElectronic Shop (6std ea.)  
1xMachine Shop (10std ea.)    
4xSickbay (8std ea.)     
1xShip's locker (12.5std ea.)
10xArmory (2.14std ea.) (Capacity: 60 each)
6xGym (2.5std ea.)
3xLounge(44std ea.)
1xCIC(44std ea.)
4xOrdinary Galley (Cap:150)
4xFull Galley (Cap:150)       

Small Craft
1xSpacHgr (30std, 1 hatches)
3xDockRing (30std)       

Backups
Sensors: 2xPEMS (13.5 [16mkm]). 2xAEMS (12 [1.6mkm] LP). 24xLIDAR (14.5
[500kkm]).

Power & Fuel: Fusion (1000MW).
Crew Details
7 x Maneuver. 1 x Electronics. 326 x Engineer. 23 x Maintenance. 65 x
Gunner. 12 x Screen. 8 x Flight. 40 x Troops. 80 x Command. 19 x
Steward. 4 x Medical.

The _Dido_-class light cruiser is expressly intended to operate against
multiple smaller foes.  Although _Dido_ mounts the well-proven 11.144 Gj
NPAW found on many smaller AuricTech cruiser designs, her primary
purpose is to carry 20 smaller, yet still potent, NPAWs into battle. 
One NPAW of this type is capable of engaging a destroyer on equal terms;
_Dido_ mounts twenty such weapons.  Twelve missile bays add to _Dido's_
offensive punch, while AuricTech's proven 15-Mj quad-mount laser turrets
provide both effective point defense against missiles and useful
anti-ship capability against smaller vessels.

As with most AuricTech cruiser designs, _Dido_ is capable of extended
independent operations.  She carries 26 weeks of rations for her design
crew, with enough galley capacity to enable her to mess twice her design
complement.  Under normal manning, each of _Dido's_ crewbeings enjoys an
individual Small or Large stateroom.  _Dido's_ habitability is enhanced
both by her large enlisted and officer lounges, each of which has an
adjacent ordinary galley as a snack bar, and by her physical fitness
centers, which exceed Imperial standards.  Her MultiFlow Corporation
Extended life support system is rated to support double occupancy
indefinitely.  Routine maintenance far from base is facilitated by
_Dido's_ workshops and cargo bays.

All these capabilities are not achieved at the expense of performance.
_Dido_ is capable of the 6G/J4 performance expected of Imperial Navy
fleet units.


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 23:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 22:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Singularities
Message-ID: <200204290551.g3T5p4G05098@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Singularities
...
>To quote from someone else:
...
>Even in the Gulf War of 1991 which saw a force of almost 
>400,000 hammered by unlimited conventional airpower for a 
>month and attacked by a large modern mobile armor force with 
>an enormous technological advantage in weaponry, the 
>estimated casualty figure for Iraqi forces equals 
>approximately only 7.1 percent."

  Given that all of the previous figures in that thesis were
annualized (eg, 9.0 per 1,000 per year for WW2), isn't it
strange that this one figure isn't? Especially as it would
contravene their conclusion if it were presented the same way.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 02:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Mon Apr 29 01:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
References: <16f.cbfbaed.29fb394e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CCD0A2F.1080406@gmx.net>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
>>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
>>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>>>
>officer."
>
>>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
>>
>TOS.
>
>Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
>people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
>doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.
>
And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
Bakula...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 03:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 29 02:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Opinions, please
Message-ID: <004a01c1ef5c$d0e67b40$66d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a couple of questions for the list... consider this market =
research of a sort.

1. The Traveller's Aide series: what would folks like to see? The =
planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is there something =
specific?

For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
there prospective writers?

2. Some time ago I began work on a Traveller novel set during the =
Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems likely that the =
Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in a "Golden Age" =
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a couple of questions for the =
list...=20
consider this market research of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. The Traveller's Aide series: what =
would folks=20
like to see? The planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is =
there=20
something specific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what about a series of CT =
adventures=20
set in the Marches, circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make =
it worth=20
doing? Are there prospective writers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Some time ago I began work on a =
Traveller novel=20
set during the Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems =
likely=20
that the Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in =
a&nbsp;"Golden Age"=20
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the=20
Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 04:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 29 03:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20429.005102.9p1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
>> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
>> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
>> time.
>
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
will suspecyt there's a misjump.

>
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
> live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
> always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
>                                                  --Mojo Nixon
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 04:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Mon Apr 29 03:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>

In mail (Digest, which is why I'm so far behind:-), "Matthew Bond" 
<mattgbond@ntlworld.com> said...

<SNIP>
Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in 
the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
</SNIP>

I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4% 
failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company creating 
the system, or the local Police force.

*I* am merely repeating it.

To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently 
'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a lake 
have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in prison 
for perjury (telling lies in court).
Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the 
prisons are too overcrowded"...

ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the 
*whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her 
mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.

Jeff.
"I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 06:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Mon Apr 29 05:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern]
Message-ID: <3CCCF3C7.28630.3F7A8E@localhost>

I picked up a book called "The Yard" by Michael S Sanders
it covers the construction of an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer
from the keel up by the Bath Iron Works, and various techniques and some 
interesting pictures and diagrams

which leads into the question of how starships are built

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 06:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 05:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (OT) George Alec Effinger
Message-ID: <20020429.082943.-324537.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Some of you may already know this, but for those who haven't, George Alec
Effinger has passed away (it's been a rough couple of weeks for SF...
Damon Knight passed away not too long ago).  SJG's 'Daily Illuminator'
has more info: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 07:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Mon Apr 29 06:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B90@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: 29 April 2002 09:51
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >> 
> >> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> >> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> >> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> >> time.
> >
> > Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that 
> jump duration
> > is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that 
> passing the
> > minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> > average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, 
> without having
> > an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> > having an estimated breakout.
> 
> No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
> 168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
> will suspecyt there's a misjump.

Well, theres also the possiblity that the Astrogator miscalculated the
duration... so once the calculated time has elapsed the figures would be
checked and double checked. This will take some time. Then there will be
speculation that an uncharted massive body has interrupted the jump
route, thus throwing the duration out, even then one you get to 185
hours misjump will be the likely answer.

Also, IIRC, Jump sickness is more frequent in Misjumps, with onset of
headaches, dizzyness and nausea within 2-3 days of Jump initiation. So
that is likely to be the first indication of misjump rather than the
calculated duration passing.

And on the subject of Jump Sickness, I thought that Jeffery Long was the
guy that was in a coma after being the only known survivor of EVA during
Jump, and thus unshielded exposure to the Jump bubble. Simple Jump
Sickness is an accepted medical condition that some part of the
population suffers from in Jump, and which is more prevalent in a
misjump (and being one of the early telltales of a misjump)

As for the Illustration of a Jump Time Elapsed Display, rather than a
Countdown to Jump emergence, this may be to facilitate the Jump Exit
Lottery on the ship for passengers and crew. The Astrogator and Captain
may know when the ship is expected to exit Jump, but no-one else
necessarily does...

Matt 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 08:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Apr 29 07:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
References: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3pu0ibmj0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> An ex-Politician is in prison for perjury (telling lies in court).

Given that the entire basis of our court system is people telling the
truth in court, I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 09:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (allensh)
Date: Mon Apr 29 08:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
In-Reply-To: <3CCD0A2F.1080406@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <20020429150301.82010.qmail@web13908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> >tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military
> vessel, its organization is 
> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category
> does not exist. STAR TREK 
> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman
> aboard the U.S.S. 
> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified
> astronaut, therefore an 
> >>>
> >officer."

This was true in the original series, but not in the
later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 09:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Apr 29 08:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425.170405.-125887.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020429151026.74367.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
could prescribe that for our good General?


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> > On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> > 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three
> bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of
> Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.
> 
> Turokan
> 
> ..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.  
> ---   -       -..   .. 
>  .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..  
> ...-   .   --..--     
>  .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-  
> .-.   .       -   .... 
>  .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---  
> ..-.       -   ....   . 
>      .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 10:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Mon Apr 29 09:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <l03010d14b8f328581e59@[206.224.92.67]>

A message from Warehouse 23 to Traveller fans:

>The details of ordering and availability for the Traveller Limited Edition
>Hardcover haven't been finalized yet.  We will make an announcement as soon
>as everything has been confirmed.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a collection of existing Traveller
>items.  It will be sold through normal distribution and you can get it at
>your friendly local game store, or through Warehouse 23.  Just to clear up
>some confusion: no, it isn't preorder only.
>
>If there's anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me
>here at orders@sjgames.com.

Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
the word out.

We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.

The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
through the normal FLGS channels.



Loren



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <l03010d14b8f328581e59@[206.224.92.67]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429101934.009ecc00@mindspring.com>

At 11:47 AM 4/29/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
>them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
>the word out.
>
>We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
>and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
>through the normal FLGS channels.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf 
shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429101934.009ecc00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEKLDMAA.tml@downport.com>

http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry

> I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Message-ID: <F273WORuXB3QvCzI3Jj000037f8@hotmail.com>

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Brilliant!  I love it."


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  Please have fun using it in your campaigns.  You can 
see from the GM-imposed hardware/software/manning requirements that it was a 
definite "fun quotient" tweak.

     "This should become part of canon, methinks."

     Nope, that's going way too far.  This is absolutely a MTU/YTU rule 
only.  Besides, I got a sneaking suspicion that many folks already have 
something like it in their TUs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Message-ID: <200204291255.AA4128904@caddocourt.com>

From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
>--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
>> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>> >>>officer."
>
>This was true in the original series, but not in the
>later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
>was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
>were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Again, TNG was also "officer-only" for its first couple of seasons.  And Colm Meany's character was clearly an officer (specifically a Lt).  It was only post-Rodenberry where they introduce enlisted personel and "redefined" Colm Meany's character into the enlisted O'Brien.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Donald McKinney)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with reprint of Double Adventures...
Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E011405E2@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>

Ok, I spilled a dark substance on page 1 of the "Stranded on Arden" adventure in my *NEW* reprints book.

Is it possible to get someone to send me a photocopy of pages 1 and 2 of the "Stranded on Arden" adventure?  Sigh...


DonM.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with reprint of Double Adventures...
Message-ID: <200204291920.FGU00108@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Donald McKinney says
>Ok, I spilled a dark substance on page 1 of the "Stranded on 
>Arden" adventure in my *NEW* reprints book.
>

Ah, the dreaded Coffee...
________________
NO! Sentence first, verdict after!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22737@USCHM203>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
>circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
>there prospective writers?

>2.(re-Traveller Novel)So; supposing we serialized it in =
>the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?

Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:00 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #454 - 15 msgs


Send TML mailing list submissions to
	tml@travellercentral.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	tml-request@travellercentral.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
	tml-admin@travellercentral.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Re: Star Trek (Robert Houghton)
   2. Opinions, please (MJ Dougherty)
   3. Re: Re: Piracy assumptions (Leonard Erickson)
   4. Re: Big Brother (Jeff Rowse)
   5. an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern] (shadowcat)
   6. (OT) George Alec Effinger (knightsky@juno.com)
   7. RE: Re: Piracy assumptions (Matthew Bond)
   8. Re: Re: Big Brother (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
   9. Re: Re: Star Trek (allensh)
  10. Re: RAH and libertarianism (Paul Walker)
  11. (no subject) (Loren Wiseman)
  12. Re: (no subject) (Douglas Berry)
  13. RE: (no subject) (Swordy)
  14. Re: Grote's Clan Ships (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
  15. Re: Re: Star Trek (Mike West)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:54:07 +1000
From: Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
>>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK

>>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>>>
>officer."
>
>>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
>>
>TOS.
>
>Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
>people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
>doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.
>
And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
Bakula...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:03:35 +0100
Subject: [TML] Opinions, please
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a couple of questions for the list... consider this market =
research of a sort.

1. The Traveller's Aide series: what would folks like to see? The =
planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is there something =
specific?

For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
there prospective writers?

2. Some time ago I began work on a Traveller novel set during the =
Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems likely that the =
Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in a "Golden Age" =
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a couple of questions for the =
list...=20
consider this market research of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. The Traveller's Aide series: what =
would folks=20
like to see? The planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is =
there=20
something specific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what about a series of CT =
adventures=20
set in the Marches, circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make =
it worth=20
doing? Are there prospective writers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Some time ago I began work on a =
Traveller novel=20
set during the Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems =
likely=20
that the Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in =
a&nbsp;"Golden Age"=20
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the=20
Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220--


--__--__--

Message: 3
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 00:51:02 PST
Organization: Shadownet
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
>> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
>> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
>> time.
>
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
will suspecyt there's a misjump.

>
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
> live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
> always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
>                                                  --Mojo Nixon
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


--__--__--

Message: 4
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:52:01 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail (Digest, which is why I'm so far behind:-), "Matthew Bond" 
<mattgbond@ntlworld.com> said...

<SNIP>
Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in

the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
</SNIP>

I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4% 
failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company creating 
the system, or the local Police force.

*I* am merely repeating it.

To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently 
'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a lake 
have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in prison

for perjury (telling lies in court).
Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the 
prisons are too overcrowded"...

ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the 
*whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her 
mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.

Jeff.
"I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:18:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern]
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I picked up a book called "The Yard" by Michael S Sanders
it covers the construction of an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer
from the keel up by the Bath Iron Works, and various techniques and some 
interesting pictures and diagrams

which leads into the question of how starships are built

--__--__--

Message: 6
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:29:40 -0400
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: [TML] (OT) George Alec Effinger
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Some of you may already know this, but for those who haven't, George Alec
Effinger has passed away (it's been a rough couple of weeks for SF...
Damon Knight passed away not too long ago).  SJG's 'Daily Illuminator'
has more info: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:41:44 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com



> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: 29 April 2002 09:51
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >> 
> >> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> >> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> >> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> >> time.
> >
> > Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that 
> jump duration
> > is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that 
> passing the
> > minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> > average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, 
> without having
> > an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> > having an estimated breakout.
> 
> No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
> 168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
> will suspecyt there's a misjump.

Well, theres also the possiblity that the Astrogator miscalculated the
duration... so once the calculated time has elapsed the figures would be
checked and double checked. This will take some time. Then there will be
speculation that an uncharted massive body has interrupted the jump
route, thus throwing the duration out, even then one you get to 185
hours misjump will be the likely answer.

Also, IIRC, Jump sickness is more frequent in Misjumps, with onset of
headaches, dizzyness and nausea within 2-3 days of Jump initiation. So
that is likely to be the first indication of misjump rather than the
calculated duration passing.

And on the subject of Jump Sickness, I thought that Jeffery Long was the
guy that was in a coma after being the only known survivor of EVA during
Jump, and thus unshielded exposure to the Jump bubble. Simple Jump
Sickness is an accepted medical condition that some part of the
population suffers from in Jump, and which is more prevalent in a
misjump (and being one of the early telltales of a misjump)

As for the Illustration of a Jump Time Elapsed Display, rather than a
Countdown to Jump emergence, this may be to facilitate the Jump Exit
Lottery on the ship for passengers and crew. The Astrogator and Captain
may know when the ship is expected to exit Jump, but no-one else
necessarily does...

Matt 

--__--__--

Message: 8
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Big Brother
From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: 29 Apr 2002 08:35:31 -0600
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> An ex-Politician is in prison for perjury (telling lies in court).

Given that the entire basis of our court system is people telling the
truth in court, I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

--__--__--

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> >tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military
> vessel, its organization is 
> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category
> does not exist. STAR TREK 
> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman
> aboard the U.S.S. 
> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified
> astronaut, therefore an 
> >>>
> >officer."

This was true in the original series, but not in the
later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
could prescribe that for our good General?


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> > On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> > 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three
> bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of
> Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.
> 
> Turokan
> 
> ..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.  
> ---   -       -..   .. 
>  .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..  
> ...-   .   --..--     
>  .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-  
> .-.   .       -   .... 
>  .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---  
> ..-.       -   ....   . 
>      .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:47:47 -0500
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

A message from Warehouse 23 to Traveller fans:

>The details of ordering and availability for the Traveller Limited Edition
>Hardcover haven't been finalized yet.  We will make an announcement as soon
>as everything has been confirmed.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a collection of existing Traveller
>items.  It will be sold through normal distribution and you can get it at
>your friendly local game store, or through Warehouse 23.  Just to clear up
>some confusion: no, it isn't preorder only.
>
>If there's anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me
>here at orders@sjgames.com.

Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
the word out.

We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.

The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
through the normal FLGS channels.



Loren



--__--__--

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:21:03 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 11:47 AM 4/29/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
>them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
>the word out.
>
>We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
>and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses
out.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
>through the normal FLGS channels.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf 
shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


--__--__--

Message: 13
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] (no subject)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:16 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry

> I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



--__--__--

Message: 14
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:40:58 +0000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Brilliant!  I love it."


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  Please have fun using it in your campaigns.  You can 
see from the GM-imposed hardware/software/manning requirements that it was a

definite "fun quotient" tweak.

     "This should become part of canon, methinks."

     Nope, that's going way too far.  This is absolutely a MTU/YTU rule 
only.  Besides, I got a sneaking suspicion that many folks already have 
something like it in their TUs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:55:27 -0500
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
>--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is

>> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR
TREK 
>> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>> >>>officer."
>
>This was true in the original series, but not in the
>later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
>was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
>were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Again, TNG was also "officer-only" for its first couple of seasons.  And
Colm Meany's character was clearly an officer (specifically a Lt).  It was
only post-Rodenberry where they introduce enlisted personel and "redefined"
Colm Meany's character into the enlisted O'Brien.

Mike West


--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:43:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:43:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Opinions, please (MJ Dougherty)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22738@USCHM203>


-----Original Message-----
From: Hurrel, Brian 
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:39 PM
To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
Subject: From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>


"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
>circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
>there prospective writers?

>2.(re-Traveller Novel)So; supposing we serialized it in =
>the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?

Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:00 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #454 - 15 msgs


Send TML mailing list submissions to
	tml@travellercentral.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	tml-request@travellercentral.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
	tml-admin@travellercentral.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Re: Star Trek (Robert Houghton)
   2. Opinions, please (MJ Dougherty)
   3. Re: Re: Piracy assumptions (Leonard Erickson)
   4. Re: Big Brother (Jeff Rowse)
   5. an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern] (shadowcat)
   6. (OT) George Alec Effinger (knightsky@juno.com)
   7. RE: Re: Piracy assumptions (Matthew Bond)
   8. Re: Re: Big Brother (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
   9. Re: Re: Star Trek (allensh)
  10. Re: RAH and libertarianism (Paul Walker)
  11. (no subject) (Loren Wiseman)
  12. Re: (no subject) (Douglas Berry)
  13. RE: (no subject) (Swordy)
  14. Re: Grote's Clan Ships (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
  15. Re: Re: Star Trek (Mike West)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:54:07 +1000
From: Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
>>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK

>>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>>>
>officer."
>
>>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
>>
>TOS.
>
>Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
>people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
>doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.
>
And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
Bakula...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:03:35 +0100
Subject: [TML] Opinions, please
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a couple of questions for the list... consider this market =
research of a sort.

1. The Traveller's Aide series: what would folks like to see? The =
planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is there something =
specific?

For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
there prospective writers?

2. Some time ago I began work on a Traveller novel set during the =
Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems likely that the =
Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in a "Golden Age" =
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a couple of questions for the =
list...=20
consider this market research of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. The Traveller's Aide series: what =
would folks=20
like to see? The planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is =
there=20
something specific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what about a series of CT =
adventures=20
set in the Marches, circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make =
it worth=20
doing? Are there prospective writers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Some time ago I began work on a =
Traveller novel=20
set during the Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems =
likely=20
that the Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in =
a&nbsp;"Golden Age"=20
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the=20
Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220--


--__--__--

Message: 3
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 00:51:02 PST
Organization: Shadownet
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
>> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
>> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
>> time.
>
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
will suspecyt there's a misjump.

>
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
> live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
> always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
>                                                  --Mojo Nixon
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


--__--__--

Message: 4
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:52:01 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail (Digest, which is why I'm so far behind:-), "Matthew Bond" 
<mattgbond@ntlworld.com> said...

<SNIP>
Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in

the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
</SNIP>

I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4% 
failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company creating 
the system, or the local Police force.

*I* am merely repeating it.

To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently 
'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a lake 
have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in prison

for perjury (telling lies in court).
Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the 
prisons are too overcrowded"...

ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the 
*whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her 
mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.

Jeff.
"I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:18:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern]
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I picked up a book called "The Yard" by Michael S Sanders
it covers the construction of an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer
from the keel up by the Bath Iron Works, and various techniques and some 
interesting pictures and diagrams

which leads into the question of how starships are built

--__--__--

Message: 6
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:29:40 -0400
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: [TML] (OT) George Alec Effinger
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Some of you may already know this, but for those who haven't, George Alec
Effinger has passed away (it's been a rough couple of weeks for SF...
Damon Knight passed away not too long ago).  SJG's 'Daily Illuminator'
has more info: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:41:44 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com



> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: 29 April 2002 09:51
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >> 
> >> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> >> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> >> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> >> time.
> >
> > Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that 
> jump duration
> > is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that 
> passing the
> > minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> > average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, 
> without having
> > an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> > having an estimated breakout.
> 
> No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
> 168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
> will suspecyt there's a misjump.

Well, theres also the possiblity that the Astrogator miscalculated the
duration... so once the calculated time has elapsed the figures would be
checked and double checked. This will take some time. Then there will be
speculation that an uncharted massive body has interrupted the jump
route, thus throwing the duration out, even then one you get to 185
hours misjump will be the likely answer.

Also, IIRC, Jump sickness is more frequent in Misjumps, with onset of
headaches, dizzyness and nausea within 2-3 days of Jump initiation. So
that is likely to be the first indication of misjump rather than the
calculated duration passing.

And on the subject of Jump Sickness, I thought that Jeffery Long was the
guy that was in a coma after being the only known survivor of EVA during
Jump, and thus unshielded exposure to the Jump bubble. Simple Jump
Sickness is an accepted medical condition that some part of the
population suffers from in Jump, and which is more prevalent in a
misjump (and being one of the early telltales of a misjump)

As for the Illustration of a Jump Time Elapsed Display, rather than a
Countdown to Jump emergence, this may be to facilitate the Jump Exit
Lottery on the ship for passengers and crew. The Astrogator and Captain
may know when the ship is expected to exit Jump, but no-one else
necessarily does...

Matt 

--__--__--

Message: 8
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Big Brother
From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: 29 Apr 2002 08:35:31 -0600
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> An ex-Politician is in prison for perjury (telling lies in court).

Given that the entire basis of our court system is people telling the
truth in court, I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

--__--__--

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> >tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military
> vessel, its organization is 
> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category
> does not exist. STAR TREK 
> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman
> aboard the U.S.S. 
> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified
> astronaut, therefore an 
> >>>
> >officer."

This was true in the original series, but not in the
later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
could prescribe that for our good General?


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> > On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> > 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three
> bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of
> Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.
> 
> Turokan
> 
> ..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.  
> ---   -       -..   .. 
>  .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..  
> ...-   .   --..--     
>  .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-  
> .-.   .       -   .... 
>  .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---  
> ..-.       -   ....   . 
>      .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:47:47 -0500
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

A message from Warehouse 23 to Traveller fans:

>The details of ordering and availability for the Traveller Limited Edition
>Hardcover haven't been finalized yet.  We will make an announcement as soon
>as everything has been confirmed.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a collection of existing Traveller
>items.  It will be sold through normal distribution and you can get it at
>your friendly local game store, or through Warehouse 23.  Just to clear up
>some confusion: no, it isn't preorder only.
>
>If there's anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me
>here at orders@sjgames.com.

Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
the word out.

We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.

The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
through the normal FLGS channels.



Loren



--__--__--

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:21:03 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 11:47 AM 4/29/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
>them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
>the word out.
>
>We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
>and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses
out.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
>through the normal FLGS channels.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf 
shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


--__--__--

Message: 13
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] (no subject)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:16 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry

> I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



--__--__--

Message: 14
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:40:58 +0000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Brilliant!  I love it."


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  Please have fun using it in your campaigns.  You can 
see from the GM-imposed hardware/software/manning requirements that it was a

definite "fun quotient" tweak.

     "This should become part of canon, methinks."

     Nope, that's going way too far.  This is absolutely a MTU/YTU rule 
only.  Besides, I got a sneaking suspicion that many folks already have 
something like it in their TUs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:55:27 -0500
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
>--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is

>> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR
TREK 
>> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>> >>>officer."
>
>This was true in the original series, but not in the
>later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
>was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
>were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Again, TNG was also "officer-only" for its first couple of seasons.  And
Colm Meany's character was clearly an officer (specifically a Lt).  It was
only post-Rodenberry where they introduce enlisted personel and "redefined"
Colm Meany's character into the enlisted O'Brien.

Mike West


--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:48:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:48:00 2002
Subject: [TML] From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22737@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>

At 03:38 PM 4/29/02 -0400, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
>"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
> >circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
> >there prospective writers?
>
> >2.(re-Traveller Novel)So; supposing we serialized it in =
> >the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?
>
>Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?
[big honking snip]

request #1:  Please do not include the entire digest for a one line reply.

request #1:  Please do not send 'styled' text to the list.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 14:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 13:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with reprint of Double Adventures...
Message-ID: <20020429.130950.-72731.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:20:50 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> Donald McKinney says
> >Ok, I spilled a dark substance on page 1 of the "Stranded on 
> >Arden" adventure in my *NEW* reprints book.
> >
> 
> Ah, the dreaded Coffee...
> ________________
> NO! Sentence first, verdict after!

Guilty!

On old books it's forgiveable, but never on new...

Make him walk the plank Captain, arrgh.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 14:16:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 13:16:11 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020429.130950.-72731.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Paul

On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
> on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
> year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
> could prescribe that for our good General?
> 
> 
> --- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
>  > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
>
 > Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> > and my disability
> > pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.

Ah, thanks Paul, it's such a nice jesture.

Perhaps I could stow aboard a freighter?

ObTrav:
So just how could you get off world in my case?
I can't work.
I need assistance.
My funds are tied to this world mandating that I stick around or I don't
get paid.

 Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 15:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Mon Apr 29 14:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
References: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ccd9cd0.1320581@post.demon.co.uk>

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:


>To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently=20
>'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a =
lake=20
>have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in =
prison=20
>for perjury (telling lies in court).
>Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the=20
>prisons are too overcrowded"...

What's your argument regarding the politician?  That since we all know
politicians are liars anyway, nobody should be surprised or offended
if they tell lies in court as well?  Even if the politician in
question deliberately falsified his testimony in order to win a libel
case and thereby secure 6- or7-figure financial damages from the other
party?  Seems to me that's a far worse crime than simple mugging or
car theft...

Also, if you can point me to any real case in any country in the world
where a person accused of rape did not stand trial because "the jails
are full", I'd like to hear it.  I know some countries have "prison
amnesties", and others have been known to extend schemes for parole
and early release, but that's for tried and convicted criminals who
have already served part of their sentence... and I doubt that the
scheme would extend to such a serious crime as rape.  But I'm willing
to be proved wrong if you have evidence.

ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
request.  He states that he is currently engaged in a messy divorce,
and it would be very helpful to his case if the players were willing
to swear that he was having dinner with them on a particular evening.
He offers a generous financial inducement to do this, and suggests to
the players that they should make a formal written deposition before a
lawyer then leave planet.  He promises to only use the deposition if
his wife's lawyers raise that particular evening in court.

If the players agree, then on their next visit to the world (which
might not be for a significant time), they discover that the
politician is still happily married, and won a multi-million credit
settlement in a libel case against a media organisation - thanks
entirely to their (false) evidence.  Do they:

a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
b)  Report the case to the authorities?
c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?

Of course, the problem is that their own involvement in the case was
criminal;  and the politician is a highly respected member of the
governing party and personal friend of the planet's leader.  The media
group that lost the case is keen for redress and could help them, but
it is also running scared of the politician's influence having been
burned once already.  Can the players prove their side of the story?
(Perhaps they can gain access to CCTV camera footage of the night in
question <g> ?)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 16:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 15:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Advanced Battle Armor
Message-ID: <f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39@aol.com>

--part1_f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Hi gang, while surfing the WWweb, I found mention of an article in JTAS 
#3, apparently by a Bob Barger (? I'm having a heck of a time reading my own 
scrawl), called Advanced Battle Armor (?).
   If someone has that issue handy, could they share the particulars?
   Thanks :)
  -Ken Murphy-

--part1_f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi gang, while surfing the WWweb, I found mention of an article in JTAS #3, apparently by a Bob Barger (? I'm having a heck of a time reading my own scrawl), called Advanced Battle Armor (?).
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;If someone has that issue handy, could they share the particulars?
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 17:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Star Trek
Message-ID: <15b.d29cb96.29ff2d05@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/29/2002 2:02:37 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
>Bakula...

You kids today . . .              :  )

I did this once before -- isn't in the archives someplace?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 18:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr 29 17:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3ccd9cd0.1320581@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000201c1efdf$ca99b120$0b01a8c0@duck>

> ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
> world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
> request.  He states that he is currently engaged in a messy divorce,
> and it would be very helpful to his case if the players were willing
> to swear that he was having dinner with them on a particular evening.
> He offers a generous financial inducement to do this, and suggests to
> the players that they should make a formal written deposition before a
> lawyer then leave planet.  He promises to only use the deposition if
> his wife's lawyers raise that particular evening in court.
> 
> If the players agree, then on their next visit to the world (which
> might not be for a significant time), they discover that the
> politician is still happily married, and won a multi-million credit
> settlement in a libel case against a media organisation - thanks
> entirely to their (false) evidence.  Do they:
> 
> a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
> b)  Report the case to the authorities?
> c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?
> 
> Of course, the problem is that their own involvement in the case was
> criminal;  and the politician is a highly respected member of the
> governing party and personal friend of the planet's leader.  The media
> group that lost the case is keen for redress and could help them, but
> it is also running scared of the politician's influence having been
> burned once already.  Can the players prove their side of the story?
> (Perhaps they can gain access to CCTV camera footage of the night in
> question <g> ?)

[I hate to use the whole thing for such a short answer, but I wanted to
keep the context.]

Considering the deal the players made in the first place, a sudden
attack of ethics would seem to be a bit out of place.  They willingly
lied and got paid for it.  Seems pretty bizarre that they would care
that the politician used it for different purposes.

Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 19:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 18:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <20020429.182302.-125801.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:41:39 -0500 "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
writes:
> > ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
> > world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
> > request.  
<snipage>
> > a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
> > b)  Report the case to the authorities?
> > c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?
> > 
> 
> Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
> now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?
> 
> Mike West

Though up front I'd agree and choose [a], if looking deeper I could
choose [c].

My assumption is:
1. The players are already involved in a blackmail scheme against the
politician's wife.
Why?
Money.
If they had scruples, they wouldn't have taken the credits in the first
place.

2. The politician received a huge settlement.
A or some of the players bent on greed may have spent their credits, and
now want more to keep quiet.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 20:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr 29 19:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <20020429.182302.-125801.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>

generalturokan@juno.com
> On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:41:39 -0500 "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
> writes:
> > > ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
> > > world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
> > > request.  
> <snipage>
> > > a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
> > > b)  Report the case to the authorities?
> > > c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?
> > > 
> > 
> > Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
> > now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?
> 
> Though up front I'd agree and choose [a], if looking deeper I could
> choose [c].
> 
> My assumption is:
> 1. The players are already involved in a blackmail scheme against the
> politician's wife.
> Why?
> Money.
> If they had scruples, they wouldn't have taken the credits in the first
> place.
> 
> 2. The politician received a huge settlement.
> A or some of the players bent on greed may have spent their credits, and
> now want more to keep quiet.

I have to admit that I did have the assumption that the politician was
continuing to be friendly to them.  If so, I still stick with [a].  If,
however, the politician becomes hostile for some reason, then I completely
agree that [c] is quite appropriate.

The problem is that if the players pick [c], they probably need to add
that planet to their list of places to avoid for a while.  If they chose
[a], the planet could quite possibly be a good destination, instead.

I do want to note that I think we both agree that [b] is quite pointless.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 20:42:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 19:42:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <20020429.182302.-125801.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020429224441.00e45840@buffnet.net>

Of course, were I that politician, I'd consider the fact that *all* of the
potential loose ends can be tied up neatly together, by exploding a bit of
cheap missile weaponry upon the ship...  (and it would look like piracy
too!)  At the very least, pay a bomber to bomb the ship through a cutout on
the grounds of "insurance"...

;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 21:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 20:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <20020429.203207.-125683.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 22:44:41 -0400 hal@buffnet.net writes:
> Of course, were I that politician, I'd consider the fact that *all* 
> of the
> potential loose ends can be tied up neatly together, by exploding a 
> bit of
> cheap missile weaponry upon the ship...  (and it would look like 
> piracy
> too!)  At the very least, pay a bomber to bomb the ship through a 
> cutout on
> the grounds of "insurance"...
> 
> ;)
> 

Ooooo, nice closing touch. The politician takes the lead.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 23:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr 29 22:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <20413.122049.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429160538.02a58ab0@mail.qrc.com>

At 08:59 PM 4/21/02, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
> > Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
> > Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system.
>
>All i am reporting is what the average user, the "plug & pray" type, have 
>told me in the shop.

In my humble opinion, this is the difference between someone in Traveller 
with computer skill, and someone who doesn't.  I assume that someone who is 
from a moderate tech or higher (TL-8+) background can use a computer for 
normal sorts of activities (word processing, looking up references, etc.) 
without computer skill, and without needing to make a roll to operate the 
computer.  On the other hand, "unusual" use of the computer - bypassing 
security restrictions, reading nonstandard files or media, finding 
information that was deliberately obscured, obscuring information that you 
don't want people to find, and that sort of thing are what Computer skill 
is for.

>That some of the Os is put on the disk in what I know as track and 
>sectors. I was told that the track and sectors for this information change 
>with the upgrades.

All operating systems (that I'm aware of) organize a disk into tracks and 
sectors (or cylinders, heads, and sectors which is basically the same 
thing).  For floppy disks, the newer operating systems have more options 
than the old ones, but all are "upward compatible" - the new operating 
system knows how to read the older format.  If you have an old floppy, as 
long as the media hasn't physically degraded, Windows XP can read a disk 
formatted and written from an old 286-based Windows 2 machine.  And Office 
XP can read the Word for Windows file format.

>Therefore this is a reason why newer systems have trouble or can't read
>the older disks.

The usual reason isn't incompatibility but media degradation.  Floppy disks 
were never intended for archival storage of data; they're better than many 
forms of magnetic tape, but aren't going to last forever.  When I worked 
for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, we had a tape 
library that contained satellite data for US weather satellites (going back 
to the first data sent from the very first, in the 1950's).  As part of the 
maintenance of the library, tapes were pulled for check reads (once every 5 
or 10 years, I believe) and any that had begun to degrade were re-recorded 
onto new media.

If you've got computer data that you want to store for the long haul, right 
now the best bet is to burn it to a CD-ROM.  Unlike floppies, the CD-ROM 
file format is a world-wide standard published by the International 
Standards Organization.  It works a lot like I envisioned Traveller media 
standards.  There is a published standard that is available to anyone who 
cares to read it that sets out exactly what is required to read (or write) 
audio or data to a CD-ROM - from the composition of the media all the way 
through the organization of the data.  Any computer that supports CD-ROM 
drives, can read an ISO disk.  Some - mainly those with Microsoft operating 
systems - can write other formats as well; those disks only work with 
compatible Microsoft operating systems.

>I would think that there are Imperial standards for navigation. Set 
>probably by the ISS.

I'd say that the IISS (and in particular the Imperial Grand Survey) has a 
standard format for navigational data, and probably a small number of 
different media that they support.  Thus, there may be thousands of 
different manufacturers of starship avionics in the Imperium, and thousands 
more software houses that write navigational software.  But they can all 
read IISS navigational data, and they all come equipped with an Imperial 
data reader that can read at least one of the media types that the IISS 
supports.

The same goes for basic data transfer of other types.  The IISS (in this 
case via the Express Boat network) has a set of standard formats and media 
types for messages: text, audio, still image, video, holo, and probably a 
couple of other formats for data that is commonly transferred over the 
Xboat network.  A good model for this is the venerable GIF format for 
pictures - it was promulgated by Compuserve, back in the day, much the same 
way that the Xboat system would promulgate standard data formats in the 
Imperium.  Even though Compuserve is now gone, the GIF format still endures 
- and almost any computer can read it.

> > The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
> > either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
> > to import and export files in those formats.
>
>In Traveller, on frontiere worlds that are doing their own thing. This 
>could grow into a sense of "National" pride. Or the thought of being 
>"forced" into
>something.

IMTU, this sort of compatibility isn't forced on manufacturers by 
legislation.  The standards are made available by the IISS (for free or a 
very nominal price) to anyone who asks for them, and don't incorporate any 
proprietary technology or techniques - so that anyone who reads and 
understands the standard can build hardware or software that's 
compatible.  There's no legal requirement that anyone do so ... BUT there's 
also a strong disincentive in the market.  If two computers are available, 
both of which can read both the "local" formats and media, but only one of 
which can talk to Imperially-based navigation, news, and Xboat traffic 
systems, which one will eventually win in the market place?  Particularly 
if there is no significant cost difference?  There may well be local file 
and media formats - but sooner or later, everyone will be able to read the 
Imperial formats one way or another.

However, this is an on-going process: worlds that recently developed the 
technology, or were recently incorporated into the Imperial interstellar 
economy, are likely to be in transition, with the market forces still 
sorting things out.


>  Still I suspect that there is something going on in the
>computer line. Where the files are sent say from the x-boat to panet and
>revers. Where it is translated to the usable format for the receptor of
>the information.
>
> > Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
> > equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
> > finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice.
>
>  Myself, I am working on converting PET to geoWrite 2.1 then converting
>the final output to Ascii for upload to the places I write for through the
>Inet. I can do the revese and prefere to do all my writing in GeoWrite 2.1
>Takes just a few minutes to convert back and forth. Perhaps that is a
>thought for the Imperial mail at least. Though expanded for images and
>text for the local systems.
>
>BCNU
>
>--
>  *****
>******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
>**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
>**            Chancellor & Editor for
>**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
>******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
>  *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 00:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 29 23:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3ccd9cd0.1320581@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20429.214428.7c5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Also, if you can point me to any real case in any country in the world
> where a person accused of rape did not stand trial because "the jails
> are full", I'd like to hear it.  I know some countries have "prison
> amnesties", and others have been known to extend schemes for parole
> and early release, but that's for tried and convicted criminals who
> have already served part of their sentence... and I doubt that the
> scheme would extend to such a serious crime as rape.  But I'm willing
> to be proved wrong if you have evidence.

The local jails are having to release a *lot* of folks *before* trial
and hope they show up for trial due to the need to have space available
if there are riots this May Day.

There *are* rules for who gets released bnased on some sort of "points"
assigned at booking.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 01:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 30 00:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
Message-ID: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

This has become something of a TML tradition.  Every April 30, someone posts
this to the TML. This time, it's me.

##########

This battle took place on the 30th of April 1863, during the campaign of
Mexico. It is celebrated each year, on the anniversary of this date, by all
the regiments of the French Foreign Legion.

History: 

The French Army was besieging Puebla.

The mission of the Legion was to ensure the movement and safety of the
convoys, over an 80 mile distance. On the 29th of April 1863, Colonel
Jeanningros was informed that an important convoy was on its way to Puebla,
with a load of 3 million francs, and material and munitions for the seige.
Captain Danjou, his quartermaster, decided to send a company to escort the
convoy. The 3rd company of the Foreign Regiment was assigned to this
mission, but had no officers available. So Captain Danjou, himself, took the
command and 2nd lieutenants Maudet, company guide, and Vilain, the
paymaster, joined him voluntarily.

On the 30th of April, at 1 a.m., the 3rd company was on its way, with its 3
officers and 62 men. At 7 a.m., after a 15 mile march, it stopped at Palo
Verde in order to get some rest. At this very moment, the enemy showed up
and the battle began. Captain Danjou made the company take up a square
formation and, even though retreating, he victoriously drove back several
cavalry charges, inflicting the first heavy losses on the enemy .

By the inn of Camerone, a large building with a courtyard protected by a
wall 3 meters high, Danjou decided to stay, in order to keep the enemy and
so delay for as long as possible, any attacks on the convoy.

While the legionnaires were rapidly setting up the defense of the inn, a
Mexican officer demanded that Captain Danjou surrender, pointing out the
fact that the Mexican Army was greatly superior in number.

Danjou's answer was: "We have munitions. We will not surrender." Then, he
swore to fight to the death and made his men swear the same. It was 10 a.m.
Until 6 p.m., these 60 men who had had nothing to eat or drink since the day
before, in spite of the extreme heat, of the thirst and hunger, resisted
against 2,000 Mexicans: 800 cavalry and 1,200 infantry.

At noon, Captain Danjou was shot in the chest and died. At 2 p.m., 2nd
lieutenant Vilain was shot in the head. About this time, the Mexican colonel
succeeded in setting the inn on fire.

In spite of the heat and the smoke, the legionnaires resisted, but many of
them were killed or injured. By 5 p.m., only 12 men could still fight with
2nd lieutenant Maudet. At this time, the Mexican colonel gathered his
soldiers and told them what disgrace it would be if they were unable to
defeat such a small number of men. The Mexicans were about to give the
general assault through holes opened in the walls of the courtyard, but
Colonel Milan, who had previously asked 2nd lieutenant Maudet to surrender,
once again gave him the opportunity to. Maudet scornfully refused.

The final charge was given. Soon, only 5 men were left around Maudet;
Corporal Maine, legionnaires Catteau, Wensel, Constantin and Leonard. Each
had only one bullet left. In a corner of the courtyard, their back against
the wall, still facing the enemy, they fixed bayonets. When the signal was
given, they opened fire and fought with their bayonets. 2nd lieutenant
Maudet and 2 legionnaires fell, mortally wounded. Maine and his 2 remaining
companions were about to be slaughtered when a Mexican officer saved them.
He shouted: "Surrender"!

"We will only if you promise to allow us to carry and care for our injured
men and if you leave us our guns".

"Nothing can be refused to men like you"!, answered the officer.

Captain Danjou's men had kept their promise; for 11 hours, they had resisted
2,000 enemy troops. They had killed 300 of them and had injured as many.
Their sacrifice had saved the convoy and they had fulfilled their mission.

Emperor Napoleon the 3rd decided that the name of Camerone would be written
on the flag of the Foreign Regiment and the names of Danjou, Vilain and
Maudet would be engraved in golden letters on the walls of the Invalides, in
Paris. 

Moreover, a monument was built in 1892, at the very place of the fight. The
following inscription can be read there :

HERE, THEY WERE LESS THAN SIXTY
AGAINST A WHOLE ARMY
ITS MASS CRUSHED THEM
BUT LIFE RATHER THAN COURAGE
ABANDONED THESE FRENCH SOLDIERS
THE 30TH OF APRIL 1863.
TO THEIR MEMORY THE NATION BUILT THIS MONUMENT.

Since then, when Mexican troops pass by the monument, they present arms.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 03:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 02:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Seems to me that the TML is very quiet right now... I was getting hundreds
of posts a couple of weeks back.

Anyway, here's how things stand here:

Traveller's Aide #1 is out, #2 is in layout. We have drafts for 3-5 more due
in over the next few days. Depending what order they come in, the next
volumes will include a sourcebook on ground vehicles, a ready-NPC book and
an adventure. All CT compatible as well as T20, as usual.

Question is, what do folks want?

All our materials will be T20 compatible - that's a necessity - but we have
the leeway to support CT and the entire Traveller timeline. That means: CT
adventures set in the Marches or the Rim, major sourcebooks on.... whatever.
We're open to suggestions. Tell us what you want from the product line, and
we'll see what we can do....

Regards

MJD







From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 03:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 02:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <01af01c1f02a$4016c010$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Comments are invited...

Some time ago Marc and I began work on a Traveller/naval SF novel. It had a
different title back then but now it's called "The Last Hurrah". Set in the
Interstellar Wars, it was going to be the Traveller Novel, but it seems more
sensible to set a print novel in the "current" Traveller universe. That
leaves Last Hurrah as a bit of an orphan.

Now, what I'm thinking of doing is serializing it as part of the Quiklink
line (but separate from the Traveller's Aide series), as a series of PDFs of
LBB size (say 20,000 words each).

Consider this market research; I need to know if it's worth editing,
reformatting and such like before doing it (very busy right now, as you
might guess).

One note: Marc hasn't got time to work on this; although he co-authored the
early chapters (and had a LOT of creative input), this is not the great Marc
Miller novel. I don't want to mislead anyone on that score.

But anyway: The Last Hurrah is about a band of Terran naval officers during
the Interstellar Wars. I don't want to give much more away than that, but I
might be willing to post the Prologue on the Quiklink site....








Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 04:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 03:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Reviews
Message-ID: <01d301c1f02e$1765e480$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Here's an offer for you...

We're looking for reviewers... and we've got bribes.

We're offering $25 worth of Quiklink Products (*anything* Quiklink sells) to
the first three reviewers to post their comments to the TML.

Here's how it works:

If you're interested, mail me direct. We'll give you a free copy of
Traveller's Aide #1. Once your review is posted, you can cash in your Cr25
for anything Quiklink has to offer.

There are a couple of requirements though:

1. the review must be longer than "it sucks" or even "it sets off
decompression alarms"
2. we'd like to be able to repost the review elsewhere as needed

If you're interested, let me know ASAP.




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 04:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 03:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020316084747.B31496@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20430.013319.6P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Another oldie getting replied to.

In mail you write:

> Daniel Tackett wrote:
>
>> > to (as I recall) *50* times the mass. 
>
>> I hate to butt in, but out of curiosity. Could a gas
>> giant that large be skimmed?
>
> Not a chance, unless your tech greatly exceeds Traveller levels.
> Either you skim at orbital velocities, which are huge and hence you
> get *really hot*, or not, in which case you immediately fall due to
> insufficient thrust.
>
>
>> I find it hard to believe that a gas giant of any size
>> could be skimmed considering the pull of gravity.
>
> In Traveller, some ships could probably cope with up to 3 Jupiter
> masses.  Specialised unmanned skimming 'missiles' could cope with up
> to about 10.

Don't forget that gas giants more massive than Jupiter will be
*smaller*. Which means that gravity at "skimming altitude" will be even
stronger than the simple mass increase would indicate.

Any of the astronomers on the list have even a *rough* formula or table
for the way gas giant diameter varies with mass?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
In-Reply-To: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>

At 10:13 AM 4/30/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>Seems to me that the TML is very quiet right now... I was getting hundreds
>of posts a couple of weeks back.
>Anyway, here's how things stand here:
>Traveller's Aide #1 is out, #2 is in layout. We have drafts for 3-5 more due
>in over the next few days. Depending what order they come in, the next
>volumes will include a sourcebook on ground vehicles, a ready-NPC book and
>an adventure. All CT compatible as well as T20, as usual.
>Question is, what do folks want?
>All our materials will be T20 compatible - that's a necessity - but we have
>the leeway to support CT and the entire Traveller timeline. That means: CT
>adventures set in the Marches or the Rim, major sourcebooks on.... whatever.
>We're open to suggestions. Tell us what you want from the product line, and
>we'll see what we can do....

I really like the CT compatibility.  I'm in several PBEMs that use CT.

Hmm...the Marches are really nice, but how about some RIM and Reavers' Deep 
material first.
Lots of stuff out already for the Marches.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine.
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020429.130950.-72731.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020430121047.21439.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

You do lots of volunteer data entry for the TAS and
hope to get paid with a free membership, then you only
need to scrape enough money together to eat.  TAS
gives you a high passage per month, plus lodging.  Of
course, you may be stuck somewhere undesireable for a
month until you get your next HiPsg.

Paul


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> ObTrav:
> So just how could you get off world in my case?
> I can't work.
> I need assistance.
> My funds are tied to this world mandating that I
> stick around or I don't
> get paid.
> 
>  Turokan



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <3cce7ff8.11067789@post.demon.co.uk>

"Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com> writes:

>I have to admit that I did have the assumption that the politician was
>continuing to be friendly to them.  If so, I still stick with [a].  If,
>however, the politician becomes hostile for some reason, then I =
completely
>agree that [c] is quite appropriate.

Actually, my assumption was that the politician had pretty much
forgotten their existence - they were off-worlders who were useful to
him for a while, got paid off and left town.
>
>The problem is that if the players pick [c], they probably need to add
>that planet to their list of places to avoid for a while.  If they chose
>[a], the planet could quite possibly be a good destination, instead.
>
>I do want to note that I think we both agree that [b] is quite =
pointless.

In the real-life situation this is based on, the person giving the
politician the original alibi chose (b).  Go figure...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <025b01c1f042$9094c060$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> I really like the CT compatibility.  I'm in several PBEMs that use CT.
>
> Hmm...the Marches are really nice, but how about some RIM and Reavers'
Deep
> material first.
> Lots of stuff out already for the Marches.

Sounds cool. Anyone care to write some?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 07:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Apr 30 06:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <F218qk0qcITzSOFI3Jz00003ef4@hotmail.com>

OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?


>From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] (no subject)
>Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:16 -0400
>
>http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
>
> > I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> > shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!
>
>



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 30 06:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <F218qk0qcITzSOFI3Jz00003ef4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCELIDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Ummm.... Avery!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Andrew MacLintock
>
> OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?
>
> >From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
> >
> >http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> >
> > > I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> > > shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 07:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 06:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
In-Reply-To: <025b01c1f042$9094c060$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430094632.00b85cb0@urbin.net>

At 01:28 PM 4/30/02 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > I really like the CT compatibility.  I'm in several PBEMs that use CT.
> > Hmm...the Marches are really nice, but how about some RIM and Reavers'
>Deep
> > material first.
> > Lots of stuff out already for the Marches.
>Sounds cool. Anyone care to write some?

There was a lot of material written for Reavers' Deep by the TNE Pocket group.
The Deep was the domain of the Keith Brothers, and we had permission from 
them to update for TNE.

Some members of that group (like myself) are still on the TML.
Material from there could be published pretty much 'as is' for TNE.

For other era'/timelines, it could be modified.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 08:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 07:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020430094632.00b85cb0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <02a701c1f050$eed3c370$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> There was a lot of material written for Reavers' Deep by the TNE Pocket
group.
> The Deep was the domain of the Keith Brothers, and we had permission from
> them to update for TNE.
>
> Some members of that group (like myself) are still on the TML.
> Material from there could be published pretty much 'as is' for TNE.
>
> For other era'/timelines, it could be modified.
>

I think I'd like to see this.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 08:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue Apr 30 07:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (sorta OT) Fw: [FT] Naval Manpower
Message-ID: <006a01c1f04d$29923400$1f9e15ac@warrior>

I think you guys can figure out the obtrav for this one :)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Donogh McCarthy" <donoghmc@hotmail.com>
To: <gzg@firedrake.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:15 AM
Subject: [FT] Naval Manpower


>
>
> Interesting article on Northrops new naval designs
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5236-2002Apr29.html
>
> In relation to the new Destroyer Class design it states:
>
> "Under the plan, sailors' standard of living also would be drastically
> improved. For example, three-tier bunk beds would be replaced with
> staterooms shared by as many as three sailors and outfitted with computers
> and Internet connections. Crew sizes would drop from 300 to 125, then
> eventually to 95. "It allows the Navy to free up a lot of resources,"
> [defense analyst Jay] Korman said.
>
> Questions arising from this:
>
> 1. What kind of % of total personnel is there is each area of operations
on
> board a military naval vessel?
>
> 2. Presumably there as some tasks manpower is always needed for, that
can't
> be automated. What kind of tasks would these be, and what plausible sci-fi
> elements could lead to these being done by automation?
>
> 3. Also presumably you need 2-3 times the number of people needed to do
all
> the jobs. Does anyone see this aspect of crew requirments as ever being
able
> to change?
>
> 4. Would crew comfort, health etc. be a bigger concern in space, and would
> this lead to larger vessels or smaller crews; or shorter deployment times?
>
> Any thoughts?
> Donogh
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 08:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 07:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
In-Reply-To: <02a701c1f050$eed3c370$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020430094632.00b85cb0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430104838.00b887e0@urbin.net>

At 03:11 PM 4/30/02 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > There was a lot of material written for Reavers' Deep by the TNE Pocket
>group.
> > The Deep was the domain of the Keith Brothers, and we had permission from
> > them to update for TNE.
> > Some members of that group (like myself) are still on the TML.
> > Material from there could be published pretty much 'as is' for TNE.
> > For other era'/timelines, it could be modified.
>I think I'd like to see this.

I have the full archives squirrelled away somewhere, plus they are also 
online, somewhere, in compressed format.

For a start, take a look at some my stuff:

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/sa-sc.html>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/rangetruck.html>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/tl5-6_seaplane.html>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/Venice_data.htm>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
Message-ID: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>

--part1_15e.cff6a74.2a000c32_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Folks,

Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/

The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
product line.

For those of you who are JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in
Brubek's on Wednesday evening to discuss the changes and what they
mean for the fan community. There should be another chat next week if
you can't make the May 1 one. Both Loren and I subscribe to this mailing
list too, so we're available for any discussions.

Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be working with Loren and Marc
Miller on the continued development of the Traveller universe. Traveller has
been a favorite of mine for over twenty years, so the chance to contribute in
this fashion is very gratifying.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_15e.cff6a74.2a000c32_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Folks,
<BR>
<BR>Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:
<BR>
<BR>http://www.sjgames.com/ill/
<BR>
<BR>The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
<BR>Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
<BR>will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
<BR>product line.
<BR>
<BR>For those of you who are JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in
<BR>Brubek's on Wednesday evening to discuss the changes and what they
<BR>mean for the fan community. There should be another chat next week if
<BR>you can't make the May 1 one. Both Loren and I subscribe to this mailing
<BR>list too, so we're available for any discussions.
<BR>
<BR>Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be working with Loren and Marc
<BR>Miller on the continued development of the Traveller universe. Traveller has
<BR>been a favorite of mine for over twenty years, so the chance to contribute in
<BR>this fashion is very gratifying.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_15e.cff6a74.2a000c32_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Thanks!
Message-ID: <l03010d06b8f46090bf4e@[206.224.92.67]>

As I do every Quarter, I would like to thank the gentlesophonts on the TML
for ordering books and stuff from Amazon.com through the link on my web
page.

For those who don't know, I get a 5% bounty on almost anything you order
provided you use the button on

http://www.lorenwiseman.com

Scroll down, hit the button (which will take you to Amazon) and then order
normally. It doesn't cost you anything extra (except a little time), and
you will help subsidize my reading habit. If you are going to buy something
through Amazon anyway, why not toss me a little something extra?

LKW



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
References: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02ed01c1f05a$50cf4b90$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_02EA_01C1F062.9FF0E370
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to=20
Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and=20
will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the=20
product line.=20

For those of you who are JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in=20
Brubek's on Wednesday evening to discuss the changes and what they=20
mean for the fan community. There should be another chat next week if=20
you can't make the May 1 one. Both Loren and I subscribe to this mailing =

list too, so we're available for any discussions.=20

Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be working with Loren and Marc =

Miller on the continued development of the Traveller universe. Traveller =
has=20
been a favorite of mine for over twenty years, so the chance to =
contribute in=20
this fashion is very gratifying.=20



***** Stands up and cheers ******

That's great. Not only good guys at the helm but it shows a commitment =
to the GT line at SJG.

Okay, back to work now,,,,

Regards

MJD

------=_NextPart_000_02EA_01C1F062.9FF0E370
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>The executive summary =
is that Loren=20
Wiseman is being promoted to <BR>Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. =
I've=20
been named Line Editor and <BR>will be assisting Loren with planning and =

day-to-day management of the <BR>product line. <BR><BR>For those of you =
who are=20
JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in <BR>Brubek's on Wednesday =
evening=20
to discuss the changes and what they <BR>mean for the fan community. =
There=20
should be another chat next week if <BR>you can't make the May 1 one. =
Both Loren=20
and I subscribe to this mailing <BR>list too, so we're available for any =

discussions. <BR><BR>Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be =
working with=20
Loren and Marc <BR>Miller on the continued development of the Traveller=20
universe. Traveller has <BR>been a favorite of mine for over twenty =
years, so=20
the chance to contribute in <BR>this fashion is very gratifying.=20
<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>***** Stands up and =
cheers=20
******</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>That's great. Not only =
good guys at=20
the helm but it shows a commitment to the GT line at =
SJG.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>Okay, back to work=20
now,,,,</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2>Regards</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT=20
size=3D2>MJD</DIV></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_02EA_01C1F062.9FF0E370--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
In-Reply-To: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020430083905.009f8430@mindspring.com>

At 12:27 AM 4/30/02 -0700, you wrote:
>HERE, THEY WERE LESS THAN SIXTY
>AGAINST A WHOLE ARMY
>ITS MASS CRUSHED THEM
>BUT LIFE RATHER THAN COURAGE
>ABANDONED THESE FRENCH SOLDIERS
>THE 30TH OF APRIL 1863.
>TO THEIR MEMORY THE NATION BUILT THIS MONUMENT.

We used to have this read to us in the Army.  Someday, I want to visit the 
monument.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML Haiku
Message-ID: <200204301610.FII07851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

This one is a "generic combat", but I'm sure some of you have 
ObTrav haiku you've thought of.  They don't have to be combat 
oriented, either

Red streak of tracers
Steady thump of machinegun
Splintering tree limbs
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:14:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:14:08 2002
Subject: [TML] More TML Haiku
Message-ID: <200204301613.FII08329@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ok, one more ObTrav

Sparkling laser beams
Tinny sound of suit alarm
Hissing air escapes
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] just one more
Message-ID: <200204301628.FIK01334@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

And for those of you standing on the surface of a gas giant's 
moon....

Gleaming arc of rings
Frozen nitrogen crunches
Boots leave my footprints
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:38:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:38:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <F12ZUr3CrJRxKZMqA4d00004f37@hotmail.com>

In mail, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> rightly points out that...

<SNIP>
...the entire basis of our court system is people telling the truth in 
court...
</SNIP>

That wasn't the point though.  The point was supposed to be a commentary on 
the British (In)Justice system.
If he had killed a six-year-old girl standing on a pavement (sidewalk) next 
to a pedestrian crossing whilst he was driving under the influence of 
alcohol, he would have been given a GB250 fine and a three month suspended 
sentence.
But because he (shock, horror) omitted to tell the *whole* truth and 
slightly 'bent' what truth he did tell in a libel case against a national 
newspaper, he gets a five year jail sentence.


<SNIP>
...I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.
</SNIP>

Make the punishment fit the crime.  The "gentleman" in question did not 
physically hurt anyone, or steal from them.  He was not a danger to the 
public.
If his lies had resulted in people being hurt then yes, jail him.  All this 
has done is make more people realise what a stupid bunch of incompetent 
jerks we have for judges in England.
Another example, a judge sentenced a young man (I think the charge was 
disturbing the peace - again, nobody suffered physically) to something like 
a GB1500 fine, and then refused to believe the kid was only getting 
something like GB100 a week in wages stacking shelves at the local 
supermarket.  The supermarket manager had to provide their salary and tax 
records before the judge would believe it...

Jeff.
"Take cover?  Why, he can't hit us from over th..."

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML Haiku
In-Reply-To: <200204301610.FII07851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020430093325.009e8330@mindspring.com>

At 12:10 PM 4/30/02 -0400, you wrote:
>This one is a "generic combat", but I'm sure some of you have
>ObTrav haiku you've thought of.  They don't have to be combat
>oriented, either

Traveller Mail List
Three hundred in the mail box
Reading all morning

Near-C rock flame again?
This argument never ends
Perhaps piracy?

Free trader jumping
Laughs at the laws of physics
Boring week in here

Bright career in Scouts
Hoping for my own Type S
3? Damn, I have died!

Sex and politics
Tend to dominate the list
Find ObTrav, stat!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:48:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:48:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <200204301644.FIK03907@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Jeff Rowse" says
>Make the punishment fit the crime.  The "gentleman" =
in =

>question did not physically hurt anyone, or steal from =

>them.  He was not a danger to the public.
>If his lies had resulted in=
 people being hurt then yes, jail =

>him.  All this has done is make more people realise what a =

>stupid bunch of incompetent jerks we have for judges in =

>England.
>Another example, a judge sentenced a young man (I think the =
=

>charge was disturbing the peace - again, nobody suffered =

>physically) to something like a GB=A31500 fine, and then =

>refused to believe the kid was only getting =

>something like GB=A3100 a week in wages stacking shelves at =

>the local supermarket.  The supermarket manager had to =

>provide their salary and tax records before the judge would =

>believe it...
>

Drunken killer walks
Perjurer gets jail sentence
=
And this is justice?

________________
Sunlight on windows
Office bu=
ildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 11:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 10:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
In-Reply-To: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
References: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200204301320030096.0DA6983B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
>Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
>will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
>product line.

Congratulations to the both of you! Traveller continues to be well=
 represented at SJG!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 11:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 30 10:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] More TML Haiku
Message-ID: <20020430173521.6110.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

Not the best Haiku, but while we were at the topic...

Haiku are very strange
SciFi can be even stranger yet
Together seems fit

TML is quiet
Haiku can save the day here
Reading to think on

Paper, pens, and die
Two D6 thank you very much
All we need for fun

Marc, Loren, et al
You built a play universe
Thank you much for Trav


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:16:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:16:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
Message-ID: <memo.996438@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Thank you for keeping this fine tradition alive.

They always say that 2 dates are important to the French Foreign Legion - 
1863 and 1664.

We have just heard, as is right and proper, about 1863.

And 1664? - it's printed on the side of every can of Kronenburg beer, a 
favourite beverage amongst Legionnaires :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:19:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:19:01 2002
Subject: [TML] TML- Travellers' Aide
Message-ID: <memo.996439@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Greetings dear hearts.

I would like to see: -

Equipment - NOT just weapons, but the useful everyday stuff that players 
always want to acquire as they plan the next job, and you end up quickly 
calculating Travelleresque prices and descriptions around everyday items.

Medical (and recreational) drugs properly developed. And some good 
illnesses which the drugs can be used to treat... :-)

Well-detailed planets to visit. 

A fully-detailed starport (ground port or up port...).

Shops and businesses - how often do your players say "I'm looking for a 
clothes shop or a coffee bar" and you have to make it up on the fly?

Just some thoughts...

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:23:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
Message-ID: <memo.996441@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
Hoo-yah!!!

Warmest congratulations and blessings for the future to both of you :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
Message-ID: <20020430184406.48777.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

Back in 97, when I was last in Trav, we were working
on THUDD.  Is THUDD still around?  If so, where is it
happening?  In the immortal words of #5, "Need more
input!"

Thanks for any info.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 13:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 12:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML- Travellers' Aide
In-Reply-To: <memo.996439@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430150810.00b84e80@urbin.net>

At 07:15 PM 4/30/02 +0100, Megan Robertson wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
>Greetings dear hearts.
>I would like to see: -
>Equipment - NOT just weapons, but the useful everyday stuff that players
>always want to acquire as they plan the next job, and you end up quickly
>calculating Travelleresque prices and descriptions around everyday items.

Ah yes...the standard kit collects.

Personal Computer & Personal Communications Units (Percomps & Percomms).
I like to combine the two into a single unit with multiple I/O interfaces 
starting at TL 8 and getting more feature rich and robust (and more 'shock 
resistant') as TLs rise.

Multitools: General, survival, electronic, etc.

Vacc suits and PLSS units at various TLs.  Showing the range between a TL A 
Rescue Ball and a TL F tailored (skin) vacc suit.

Field gear, survival gear, what the well dressed business soph on Regina is 
wearing this year.

Typical layout for a Naval Corpsman assigned to an Imperial Marine Rapid 
Response Force...

etc., etc.

>Medical (and recreational) drugs properly developed. And some good
>illnesses which the drugs can be used to treat... :-)
>
>Well-detailed planets to visit.
>
>A fully-detailed starport (ground port or up port...).
>
>Shops and businesses - how often do your players say "I'm looking for a
>clothes shop or a coffee bar" and you have to make it up on the fly?
>
>Just some thoughts...
>
>Hugs and kisses,
>
>Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
In-Reply-To: <20020430184406.48777.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CCEB33B.7146.D337F2@localhost>

Paul

As far as I know THUDD died shortly after GURPS Traveller came 
out and disputes about which design system to use started.  I am 
not sure of the details because I started lurking for the most part 
since G.T. came out.  Someone else might be able to help more.  


Tim

> Back in 97, when I was last in Trav, we were working
> on THUDD.  Is THUDD still around?  If so, where is it
> happening?  In the immortal words of #5, "Need more
> input!"
> 
> Thanks for any info.
> 
> Paul
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
In-Reply-To: <20020430184406.48777.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020198030.2060.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> Back in 97, when I was last in Trav, we were working
> on THUDD.  Is THUDD still around?

THUDDD died a long time ago; it looks like it went irregular in early 1998,
lost momentum, and seems to have died entirely by 2000.

There was a ship-building contest on JTAS, but it seems to be being pretty
unreliable too.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020430.132748.-162959.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Paul

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> You do lots of volunteer data entry for the TAS and
> hope to get paid with a free membership, then you only
> need to scrape enough money together to eat.  TAS
> gives you a high passage per month, plus lodging.  Of
> course, you may be stuck somewhere undesireable for a
> month until you get your next HiPsg.

Ah yes, my word. The old perverbial "volunteer data entry for the TAS "
routine. Of course I might starve before then. NO, WAIT! I can eat at
Chaplain Bari's soup kitchen, yeah, that's the ticket.

Now if TAS will just drop me off in NZ I'll be fine, cash in my high
passage each month, no problem.

Turokan

>  --- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> > ObTrav:
> > So just how could you get off world in my case?
> > I can't work.
> > I need assistance.
> > My funds are tied to this world mandating that I
> > stick around or I don't
> > get paid.
> > 
> >  Turokan
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
Message-ID: <200204302040.FIS03034@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net  says
>As far as I know THUDD died shortly after GURPS Traveller 
>came out and disputes about which design system to use 
>started.  I am not sure of the details because I started 
>lurking for the most part since G.T. came out.  Someone else 
>might be able to help more.  
>

Maybe we should start THUDD again, but this time, have 
different rule divisions.  That way, people compete in the 
rule sets they want to compete in, rather than having 
to "eat" a single rule set.

I've noticed that everyone has their own favorite, so there's 
no sense in limiting us to one rule set.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 15:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 14:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.141101.-161815.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

TML'ers

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> You do lots of volunteer data entry for the TAS and
> hope to get paid with a free membership. 

Speaking of data entry, or writing of anything I would appreciate it If
you all would kindly try this out. It's how I actually type.

Place your right hand in front of your keyboard, fingers facing left,
palm up.
Now stand up.
Keeping your index finger against the front edge of your keyboard, hand
relaxed, begin typing ONLY using your right thumb.
The other catch - don't move your arm muscles, just shift your weight,
and type from shoulder shifting.
To use the shift key I can get my left thumb to hold it
down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My head is also limp, my chins buried in my chest.

That's it folks.

Turokan

> --- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> > ObTrav:
> > So just how could you get off world in my case?
> > I can't work.
> > I need assistance.
> > My funds are tied to this world mandating that I
> > stick around or I don't
> > get paid.
> > 
> >  Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 15:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Apr 30 14:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
In-Reply-To: <20020430.141101.-161815.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020430.141101.-161815.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <m3k7qo2891.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Do you use any accessibility tools?  I understand that most systems
come with the ability to have `sticky' keys--that is, shift acts like
a soft caps lock, or the shift on a Palm.  Tap shift once, and it's on
for one character; tap it twice, and it's on for good; tap it a third
time and it's off.  The same applies to ctrl and alt, of course.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
...It [the Mexican dictatorship] has demanded us to deliver up our arms,
which are essential for our defence, the rightful property of freemen,
and formidable only to tyrannical governments...
          --Texas Declaration of Independence

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 15:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 14:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20430.013319.6P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020316084747.B31496@freeman.little-possums.net> <20430.013319.6P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020501074423.A30174@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Any of the astronomers on the list have even a *rough* formula or
> table for the way gas giant diameter varies with mass?

Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
dwarf mass.  Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
increasing temperatures.  Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.

It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <01c301c1f096$8feb55d0$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

We've had considerable response to our request for reviewers. The 3 bribe
packages are long gone, and we have several more potential reviewers.

If you replied and I haven't been in touch yet, nudge me, will you? It's
late and I may have missed some.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 16:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 15:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Line Editor Haikus
Message-ID: <01c401c1f097$3104f160$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


New game book is out
QuikLink needs publicity
Asked the List for help

Many replies came
People wanting freebie book
Mailbox is now full




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 17:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 16:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.160031.-125169.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Robert

On 30 Apr 2002 15:20:58 -0600 ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
writes:
> Do you use any accessibility tools?

No, no ones showed me how.

>  I understand that most systems
> come with the ability to have `sticky' keys--that is, shift acts 
> like
> a soft caps lock, or the shift on a Palm.  Tap shift once, and it's 
> on
> for one character; tap it twice, and it's on for good; tap it a 
> third
> time and it's off.  The same applies to ctrl and alt, of course.

I've seen info in passing, but never looked into it in depth.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Tue Apr 30 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Line Editor Haikus
References: <01c401c1f097$3104f160$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <004301c1f09c$cd426710$9307b286@Shane>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> New game book is out
> QuikLink needs publicity
> Asked the List for help
> 
> Many replies came
> People wanting freebie book
> Mailbox is now full

Don't look at me man
Marketing plug not in vain
I bought the darn thing!
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Please take this credit card away from me
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 17:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Apr 30 16:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
In-Reply-To: <20020430.160031.-125169.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020430.160031.-125169.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <m3wuuo927f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

generalturokan@juno.com writes:

>
> > Do you use any accessibility tools?
> 
> No, no one's showed me how.

You should def. ask around.  They can really make life easier when
typing's a chore.

> I've seen info in passing, but never looked into it in depth.

In Linux, one can simply change the key definitions from Control to
SControl, Alt to SAlt, Shift to SShift.  There's also Morseall
<http://morseall.org/>, which allows one to tap out morse code on a
mouse button to control a text shell.

On Macs & Windows, there's a control panel which gives one that sort
of option.

I imagine that using a mouse is Right Out for you.  You may wish to
investigate a command-line only interface, as that is meant to be used
straight from the keyboard, and won't expect a mouse movement at an
inconvenient time.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Every man, woman, and responsible child has a natural, fundamental,
and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right
(within the limits of the Non-Aggression Principle) to obtain, own,
and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon--handgun, shotgun, rifle,
machinegun, anything--any time, anywhere, without asking anyone's
permission.                                       --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
Message-ID: <bc.25d5fa44.2a008f10@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?

Marc's evil twin Morc

LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:26:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:26:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: News
Message-ID: <10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8@aol.com>

--part1_10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:

> >Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:
> >
> >http://www.sjgames.com/ill/
> >
> >The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
> >Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
> >will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
> >product line.
> 

And, of course, Jon beat me to it.

What he said.

LKW

--part1_10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time, tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;http://www.sjgames.com/ill/<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to<BR>
&gt;Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and<BR>
&gt;will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the<BR>
&gt;product line.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
And, of course, Jon beat me to it.<BR>
<BR>
What he said.<BR>
<BR>
LKW</FONT></HTML>

--part1_10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.172641.-125169.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Robert

On 30 Apr 2002 17:49:40 -0600 ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com writes:
>  >
> > > Do you use any accessibility tools?
> > 
> > No, no one's showed me how.
> 
> You should def. ask around.  They can really make life easier when
> typing's a chore.
>  
> On Macs & Windows, there's a control panel which gives one that sort
> of option.

I use Windows, I'll need to test it.

> I imagine that using a mouse is Right Out for you.  

No, on the contrary, the mouse I use best. That is - once I get my arm up
onto the desk. Copy and paste is my best action.

Thanks,

Now where'd I leave my grav-belt?

Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F86Dv60gxapzhad2VqK00006ba3@hotmail.com>

>From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>
>>Rupert Boleyn posted:
>>On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:48, wombat@premier.net wrote:
>>>Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my
>>>designs for _Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).
>>>Note that all three of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry
>>>PAW spinal mounts; I've never been a big fan of meson guns.
>>>Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of meson
>>>guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that ecological
>>>niche.
>>
>>I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
>>really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.
>
>First of all, thank you to all of those who replied. Patrik, I'm
>going to mine your site this evening for ideas! Your "Recurrent
>Glory"-class is positively stunning.

<blushes>

>As for meson guns..yeah, I never liked 'em. Never, that is, until
>I saw Patrik's website. How about a 406 Gj Meson Spinal mount that
>can punch through a cruiser's meson screen (and armor) at Long
>distance?

To the best of my knowledge the effectiveness of Meson guns have varied 
rather dramatically between editions but I have to agree that they are only 
marginally effective in space combat under the FFS2/MCS combo (I know/care 
very little about the T4 space combat system). Some of the smaller ships I 
designed with Meson guns should probably perform better with PAWs (but then 
most of them are experiments to see how effective Meson guns are with MCS).

Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of PAWs that 
Dimashq doesn't need to try to fill that ecological niche. ;)

IMO meson guns only become somewhat effective in ship-to-ship combat with 
tunnel lengths of 500 m or more (IIRC the Recurrent Glory has a 690 m Meson 
Gun). The biggest advantage in game is that their existence forces ships to 
carry Meson screens that add another factor into the acceleration vs. armour 
vs. stealth equation. The biggest disadvantages that they have short range 
and that hit probability analysis suggest that it's harder to hit a target 
with a meson gun (a effect simulated by MCS). An evasive strategy that is 
optimal for Meson guns will however be less efficient against Lasers and 
PAWs (unless shot at from more than one direction).


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:55:14 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <200205010054.FJA02801@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>Subject: Re: [TML] A Challenge  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>No, on the contrary, the mouse I use best. That is - once I 
>get my arm up onto the desk. Copy and paste is my best 
>action.
>
I've got a Microsoft trackball that helped the arm strain go 
away (seems I get tense using a regular mouse). That, and I 
use IBM ViaVoice to type a lot.  Initially, I had to make a 
lot of corrections, but it knows me now. Not so good for web 
pages, but that's what the mouse is for.  It's very good for 
dictation in Word.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:59:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:59:08 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <F86Dv60gxapzhad2VqK00006ba3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020214606.5089.ajackson@ping>

Patrik Holmstr=F6m writes:

> To the best of my knowledge the effectiveness of Meson guns have varied=
=20
> rather dramatically between editions but I have to agree that they are on=
ly
>  marginally effective in space combat under the FFS2/MCS combo

Specifically, there's not much point to range beyond short, due to the evas=
ion
effects.  Meson guns have a bunch of interesting tactical uses because you =
can
hide behind a planet or deep in a gas giant and use a forward observer in a
fighter (yeah, that's not discussed in MCS).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:05:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:05:07 2002
Subject: [TML] reloading example
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020319202156.009eb8c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20430.171325.3s0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Mark, you have one of *everything.*
>
> One of my "win the lottery" plans is establish residency in Oregon, get the 
> proper paperwork, and have you show me where to go shopping.  :)

Well, there's always "Fairly Honest Don's Machine Gun Parlor" out in
Hillsboro. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>

From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
>>This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking 
>> >>about a X-ray laser so it needs to be at least TL13.
>
>That doesn't necessarily follow.  TL13 is where controlled and
>contained Xray weapon lasers appear, is it not?

That's why I said probably. However if we want to build a ChemDet warhead 
using the canon laser rules (or a slightly tweaked version) ChemDets will 
suck big time unless they are grav focused or use X-ray wavelengths.


>I would expect detonation lasers to appear *much* earlier; TL8 or 9.

Are you talking about NukeDets or ChemDets here?


> >Can a lasing rod (as used in NukeDets) also be used with chemicals?
>
>Almost certainly nuclear detonation lasers are nothing like chemical
>ones.  They would be based on gamma/hard Xray radiation input to begin
>with, and chemical reactions never generate such radiation.

I thought so too, nice to have it confirmed.


> > Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow
> > up) or something more powerful (that does)?
>
>The latter, I would expect.  A cartridge that doesn't blow up is
>over-engineered for this task.

Yeah, I would like self-destructing cartridges as well and since we already 
have Chemical Laser Cartridges that don't blow up there should exist a 
margin for more powerful and/or lighter self-destructing version.

The laser cartridge question is not my largest obstacle. The regular CLC has 
more than enough power to be a viable weapon for civilian/light military use 
especially considering the price tag of the alternative (NukeDets cost 1+MCr 
and a missile armed ship can easily carry three times its own cost in 
missiles). The big problem is explaining why so few beams from a NukeDet 
seems to hit the target. At 15000 km the target can only evade 0.5m/G so the 
number of hits should be more or less equal to the number of rods/focal 
arrays pointed at the target. If we assume that all the lasers fired hits we 
get the following TL13 500 kg warheads (regular CLC).

#CLC     Energy  MCS stats
16     x  40 Mj  13:14
8     x  80 Mj  14:13
4     x 160 Mj  15:12

There are some reasons (e.g. the 1D6 Hits rule from TNE/T4) to believe that 
NukeDets aren't this accurate. As they don't require a conventional beam 
pointer (whatever it is that beam pointers do) it could be argued that they 
compensate by spreading the shots over a larger area (shotgun style). 
Another source of inaccuracy could be the detonation of the nuke itself.

If a ChemDet used a regular beam pointer none of the above would apply and a 
reasonable assumption would be that all the pulses would hit. That's nice 
but unfortunately a 15'000 km beam pointer weights slightly less than 1000 
kg (mixing FFS1/2 at TL13, 50'000 km = 1333 kg, 30.000 km = 1000 kg, 5000 km 
= 948 kg, 3000 km = 500 kg). This is clearly too much for a missile and 
Bruce Macintosh argued in a off-list email that ChemDets should be able to 
use a lightweight beam pointer since NukeDets get away with something like 
that. The question then becomes how this affects the performance of the 
ChemDet.

I am leaning towards postulating a 100 kg beam pointer that causes 5/6ths of 
the laser pulses to miss when fired at "a typical target" from 15'000 km. 
This is reduced to 2/3rds due to the ChemDets shorter detonation range. With 
these assumptions we get the following TL13 500 kg (400+100kg) warheads.

Nr/CLSs  Energy  MCS stats
12     x  45 Mj  13:11
6     x  90 Mj  14:10
3     x 180 Mj  15:9


This is slightly better than the MCS ChemDet warhead (which is a handwave 
based on a somewhat legal design). There exist enough handwave room here to 
tweak things to anybodies liking. The draft I'm working on adds a factor 2 
by going to self-destructive cartridges at TL13 (4 Mj/kg) while a TL16 
self-destructive cartridge (5 Mj/kg) adds an additional factor of 2 compared 
with its TL13 cousin (this includes the "laser efficiency modifier"). Of 
course none of this is set in stone.

An aside - I tried rating the warheads for TNE but they sucked badly due to 
their low penetration ratings (I rated the 40Mj warhead as 1D6 hits at 
1/4-16).


>>Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a 
>>lot.
>>TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing
>>Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical 
>>Lasing
>>Cartridge? Double this?
>
>Theoretically possible, yes.  Practically?  I don't know.  The mass of
>a cartridge is more than just the mass of chemical compounds contained
>within it, and converting chemical energy to laser energy is usually
>far from 100% efficient.  2 MJ/kg is very good, as far as I can see.
>
>- Tim


I'm thinking more the other practical angle. If the self-destructing 
cartridge were not noticeably better than the regular cartridge we would all 
be designing reusable (why blow up a expensive missile) laser missiles with 
10-50 cartridges with a few 45'000 km range High RoF focal arrays. The best 
part is that PD fire wouldn't stand a chance at these ranges while the 
missile would still hit most targets with every shot. Hey, this almost 
sounds like a good idea. : )

Such a missile would be a bit larger that a regular missile to fit more 
cartridges, a beam pointer and extra fuel but everything should fit into 7 
to 14 m3 or so. It would be like sort of like a laser armed remote 
controlled fighters. Make them 10 dt, pack a few more weapons and some 
thruster plates for cruising and we got a Zho robotic fighter. :)


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.181756.-125169.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

John

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 20:54:48 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> >
> I've got a Microsoft trackball that helped the arm strain go 
> away (seems I get tense using a regular mouse).

Trackball won't work, nor one of those pads you move a finger on - "No
dexterity!"
My stats are 211885 .....

> That, and I use IBM ViaVoice to type a lot.  

I barely have a voice now, and it's difficult to understand, and
constantly changing.

ObTrav:
You streamlined you ships computer to access by voice command. 
You've been in a nasty bar-fight.
Your face is all swollen from the bar stool that fractured your jaw.
Sure, medical patched you up ok, but your speech is slurred by both your
wounds and Scout brew.
The ship won't open the hatch, now what?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F115LJ0HYnmTvdeLhie00006b47@hotmail.com>

Anthony Jackson wtote
>Patrik Holmstrm writes:
>>To the best of my knowledge the effectiveness of Meson guns have >>varied 
>>rather dramatically between editions but I have to agree that >>they are 
>>only  marginally effective in space combat under the >>FFS2/MCS combo
>
>Specifically, there's not much point to range beyond short, due to the 
> >evasion effects.  Meson guns have a bunch of interesting tactical uses 
> >because you can hide behind a planet or deep in a gas giant and use a 
> >forward observer in a fighter (yeah, that's not discussed in MCS).

It's not really that bad (though nearly). For example any 200 dt Trader (or 
other low acceleration ship) or a Tigress class ship will be hit by every 
shot fired by a (lightspeed) weapon at less than 10 hexes. The exact 
distance when this happends depends on acceleration, displacement and hull 
configuration but is seldom less than 5 hexes except for missiles and 
fighters. Hit probablities goes downhill pretty fast after this distance but 
medium range should be doable for many targets (less so for meson guns). 
AFAIK most editions use some kind of proximity fused Meson gun that removes 
that nasty r^(-6) term.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:34:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:34:18 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <200205010132.FJC00900@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  writes
>My stats are 211885 .....
>
If you don't mind me asking, what happened to you? I have 
that dreaded feeling it was an industrial accident (in my 
youth I used to do abstracts of depositions for industrial 
accidents - don't ask me to eat Heinz Homestyle Gravy)

>ObTrav:
>You streamlined you ships computer to access by voice 
>command. You've been in a nasty bar-fight.
>Your face is all swollen from the bar stool that fractured 
>your jaw. Sure, medical patched you up ok, but your speech 
>is slurred by both your wounds and Scout brew.
>The ship won't open the hatch, now what?
>

IMTU, you pull out the interface cable from your belt pack, 
plug it into the ship's external jack, put the other end into 
the socket in your head, and open the door.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEKACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
>shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

You should be.  My frient Luther Martin has one, and it looks sharp.  His
only complaint is that he doesn't have many places to wear it.  I think he
should just wear it to work, but it's a little too formal for his office's
dress code (he's usually wearing a loud Hawaiian shirt when I see him during
business hours).

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:43:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:43:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
>
>Considering the deal the players made in the first place, a sudden
>attack of ethics would seem to be a bit out of place.  They willingly
>lied and got paid for it.  Seems pretty bizarre that they would care
>that the politician used it for different purposes.
>
>Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
>now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?

As they say in management seminars, it's not so much a problem as an
opportunity.  Having a powerful friend on that world may be the most optimal
outcome, but other options should certainly be considered.  It's not
personal, you know.  It's just business.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:47:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:47:24 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  TML Haiku
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

A great idea
From John Kwon of TML
Haiku of the game

a queasy stomach
deeply humming up your spine 
g-carrier please land

a queasy stomach
the engineer stopped work
he is not jump sick

pleasure center burn
"you must remove that old wire"
"doctor my brain hurts"

Silver gauss pistol
Her stalking ex-husband was
Shot so many times

They have left the Hive
To shake hands and see the sights
Making jokes in sign

Please don't feed the Vargr
He is our steward and cook
Give him bad ideas

Assiniboia
Even in daytime it shines
Credo Down again

Esalin border
They are eating kubicho
I can smell it here

No slaves on Mongo
We enjoy our service here
Do not want to leave

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:55:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:55:08 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
Message-ID: <F264yp8ARf3sllNY30k00006c57@hotmail.com>

>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>

<snip of nice design>

>Weaponry
>1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750]
>(LR)
>20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
>(LR)

Personally I would replace these with laser bays since they are smaller 
(5x), lighter (2.5x), use less power (1.2x) and cost less (7.5x) (but you 
probably know all this). Yes, I know you like PAWs. :)

>6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
>15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations for 600
>crew)

Do you have a reason why you choose to carry more fuel than rations? My
designs usually do the opposite and carry one year worth of rations and
6 month of power plant fuel. My reasoning is that the powerplant fuel will 
be refilled after every jump and that military ships will seldom be operated 
at full power and thus the fuel will last longer.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Searching for filk
Message-ID: <200205010158.FJC02926@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

The song Wanderin' Star from Paint Your Wagon is perilously 
close to filk with few modifications. It almost sounds like 
the unofficial song of the Scouts.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:04:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:04:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>
References: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020501120223.A30646@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> >I would expect detonation lasers to appear *much* earlier; TL8 or 9.
> 
> Are you talking about NukeDets or ChemDets here?

Both.


> There are some reasons (e.g. the 1D6 Hits rule from TNE/T4) to
> believe that NukeDets aren't this accurate. As they don't require a
> conventional beam pointer (whatever it is that beam pointers do)

I have no idea :/

Whatever they are, it isn't something that's required for TL7 weapons.
Unless it's just a fancy term for "sensors".


> I'm thinking more the other practical angle. If the self-destructing
> cartridge were not noticeably better than the regular cartridge we
> would all be designing reusable (why blow up a expensive missile)
> laser missiles with 10-50 cartridges with a few 45'000 km range High
> RoF focal arrays.

I thought 2 MJ/kg *was* for a one-shot self-destructing device.  It's
ahead of any currently plausible reusable pulse laser technology by a
long shot.



> The best part is that PD fire wouldn't stand a chance at these
> ranges while the missile would still hit most targets with every
> shot.

What system allows a whole bunch of batteries of starship-mounted
lasers to miss a non-accelerating target at 45 Mm while the starship
itself is an easy hit?

(I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that the missile could
accelerate while still firing to an accuracy of 1 part per million)


> Such a missile would be a bit larger that a regular missile to fit
> more cartridges, a beam pointer and extra fuel but everything should
> fit into 7 to 14 m3 or so. It would be like sort of like a laser
> armed remote controlled fighters. Make them 10 dt, pack a few more
> weapons and some thruster plates for cruising and we got a Zho
> robotic fighter. :)

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that remote missile/drone warfare is the way
to go in general.  I'm guessing the only reason why Traveller has
starship-to-starship direct-fire battles is for the space-opera image.
The rules (at least GURPS Traveller) don't favour it at all.  It would
be nice to have a clear statement of intent.

(For that matter, even person-to-person gunfights don't look too
plausible at GURPS TL9 and above if you examine things closely, but
there are things you can do to tweak things back into shape to retain
the 'feel' of standard Traveller combat.  Not that I bother with
combat anymore for the most part.  By TL9 weapons and above, when it
comes to lethal combat the outcomes are that you're either unscathed
or dead.  Never wounded and valiantly fighting on, or other staples of
space opera.)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:08:17 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.190216.-125169.4.generalturokan@juno.com>

John

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:32:27 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com  writes
> >My stats are 211885 .....
> >
> If you don't mind me asking, what happened to you? 

Amyo Lateral Sclerosis [ALS] Lou Gherig's disease.

I guess you didn't get my announcement from 9-27-01

I'll send ya copy.

Right now it's time to eat and watch JAG.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
Message-ID: <200205010204.FJC03335@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I bet Tod really likes hearing "Men of Harlech". Not that 
it's a French song, nor did they sing it at Rourke's Drift 
outside of the movie.

I am a more than passable baritone, and I have been heard to 
sing the National Anthem, clearly audible at over a mile away 
without benefit of amplification.  Mind you, I was 50 feet in 
the air, and it was a quiet night. They had to wait until I 
was finished before they called me up and told me to knock it 
off.  There *is* a benefit to knowing more than the first 
verse.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:17:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:17:13 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
References: <F264yp8ARf3sllNY30k00006c57@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CCF4FB0.5EA8596F@premier.net>


"Patrik Holmstrm" wrote:
> 
> >From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> 
> <snip of nice design>

From a highly-regarded competitor in FF&S2 warship design, that's high
praise!
> 
> >Weaponry
> >1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750]
> >(LR)
> >20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
> >(LR)
> 
> Personally I would replace these with laser bays since they are smaller
> (5x), lighter (2.5x), use less power (1.2x) and cost less (7.5x) (but you
> probably know all this). Yes, I know you like PAWs. :)

OTOH, if one uses the optional D3 for laser damage in MCS (which I do),
then PAWs (with their D6) are more destructive.  And I _like_
destructive weapons.  _Especially_ destructive PAWs. ;-)

Besides, with a corporate name like AuricTech, do you _really_ think our
designers worry too much about cost (at least when designing warships)?

> 
> >6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
> >15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations for 600
> >crew)
> 
> Do you have a reason why you choose to carry more fuel than rations? My
> designs usually do the opposite and carry one year worth of rations and
> 6 month of power plant fuel. My reasoning is that the powerplant fuel will
> be refilled after every jump and that military ships will seldom be operated
> at full power and thus the fuel will last longer.

Three reasons:

1.  More leeway in the event of fuel loss due to damage.
2.  Longer operating time in the event of a misjump or other calamity
that causes the crew to retreat to the Emergency low berths (as you can
see, the design has enough Emergency low berths to carry the entire crew
at normal manning levels).
3.  The default setting on the Akins spreadsheet for fusion plant fuel
is one year.

Note: these reasons are not necessarily in order of importance. :-)

Thanks again for the feedback.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:21:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:21:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giants (was Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller)
Message-ID: <48.acc729f.2a00aad9@aol.com>

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tim@freeman.little-possums.net writes:
> Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
> pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
> dwarf mass.  Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
> increasing temperatures.  Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
> expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.
>
> It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
> 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
> fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.

Got a reference for this?

If we ever revise GT:First In, one of the things I want to fix is the way
you generate gas giant sizes. I'm not particuarly happy with the kludge
I originally came up with - for one thing, you can't really generate super-
Jovians with it.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>tim@freeman.little-possums.net writes:
<BR>&gt; Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
<BR>&gt; pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
<BR>&gt; dwarf mass. &nbsp;Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
<BR>&gt; increasing temperatures. &nbsp;Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
<BR>&gt; expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
<BR>&gt; 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
<BR>&gt; fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.
<BR>
<BR>Got a reference for this?
<BR>
<BR>If we ever revise GT:First In, one of the things I want to fix is the way
<BR>you generate gas giant sizes. I'm not particuarly happy with the kludge
<BR>I originally came up with - for one thing, you can't really generate super-
<BR>Jovians with it.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_48.acc729f.2a00aad9_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:45:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:45:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
In-Reply-To: <200205010204.FJC03335@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8F4A4BE.5908C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/30/02 7:04 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I bet Tod really likes hearing "Men of Harlech". Not that
> it's a French song, nor did they sing it at Rourke's Drift
> outside of the movie.
> 

Tod likes all martial music.  It is a sad thing that modern war rids us a
music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that pop
up now and again).  I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
beginning of the battle.  Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
gleaming in the sun, and martial music.  It stirs the blood.

Modern war is a dirty, no nonsense business with no room for ruffles and
flourishes, banners snapping in the wind, sabres gleaming and 'gloire'.

From Louis Simpson

"At Malplaquet and Waterloo
They were polite and proud,
They primed their guns with billet-doux
And, as they fired, bowed.
At Appomatox too, it seems
Some things were understood.

O the ash and the oak and the willow tree
And the green grows the grass on the infantry; "

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
Message-ID: <a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462@aol.com>

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> Tod likes all martial music.  It is a sad thing that modern war rids us a
> music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that pop
> up now and again).  I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
> beginning of the battle.  Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
> gleaming in the sun, and martial music.  It stirs the blood.

I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been writing,
involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some rather
unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there have
been a couple sequels.

The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in the
soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior speakers.
Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as they
wade into combat.

The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon"
at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-).

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Tod likes all martial music. &nbsp;It is a sad thing that modern war rids us a
<BR>&gt; music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that pop
<BR>&gt; up now and again). &nbsp;I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
<BR>&gt; beginning of the battle. &nbsp;Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
<BR>&gt; gleaming in the sun, and martial music. &nbsp;It stirs the blood.
<BR>
<BR>I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been writing,
<BR>involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some rather
<BR>unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there have
<BR>been a couple sequels.
<BR>
<BR>The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in the
<BR>soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior speakers.
<BR>Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as they
<BR>wade into combat.
<BR>
<BR>The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon"
<BR>at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-).
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
References: <a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CCF5D6A.23227877@premier.net>


JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> 
**quote**

I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been
writing, 
involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some
rather 
unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there
have 
been a couple sequels. 

The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in
the 
soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior
speakers. 
Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as
they 
wade into combat. 

The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" 
at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-). 

**end quote**

Of course, had they played "MacArthur Park" (the Richard Harris
version), there would have been mass surrenders by the hostiles [*],
followed immediately by mass arrests of US Special Forces personnel for
war crimes.... ;-)

[*] Either that, or the aliens' braincases would have exploded.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F259XPec8O1AAwl6zO600006d73@hotmail.com>

Timothy Little wrote:
>Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> > There are some reasons (e.g. the 1D6 Hits rule from TNE/T4) to
> > believe that NukeDets aren't this accurate. As they don't require a
> > conventional beam pointer (whatever it is that beam pointers do)
>
>I have no idea :/
>
>Whatever they are, it isn't something that's required for TL7 weapons.
>Unless it's just a fancy term for "sensors".

Well, FFS1 says that they "represent the integral fire control capabilities 
of the weapon". They are required for "all heavy (non-small arm) laser, 
particle accelerators and meson guns". A external sensor is still required 
to the best of my knowledge.

>I thought 2 MJ/kg *was* for a one-shot self-destructing device.  It's
>ahead of any currently plausible reusable pulse laser technology by a
>long shot.

That depends on you defination of self-destructing. The regular CLC is used 
much like a rifle cartridge and the reaction is contained in the cartridge 
itself. I'm thinking more of something that explodes spectacularly.

> > The best part is that PD fire wouldn't stand a chance at these
> > ranges while the missile would still hit most targets with every
> > shot.
>
>What system allows a whole bunch of batteries of starship-mounted
>lasers to miss a non-accelerating target at 45 Mm while the starship
>itself is an easy hit?

Assuming that the missile can manuever:
It's bigger and accelerates less? :)

Assuming that it can't:
It won't matter since an entire fleet will be waiting for the target ship to 
stop manuevering in preparation of PD fire. The fleet will then fire and hit 
with every weapon it has disposable.

>(I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that the missile could
>accelerate while still firing to an accuracy of 1 part per million)

The rules seem to disagree but I grant you that it would be something of an 
engineering problem. I think Bruce Macintosh talked about laser accuracy a 
couple of times but I can't remember if he mentioned something about 
acceleration effects.

The fire control would have knowledge of future acceleration and could 
syncronize fire with a straight burn. During such a burn the angle to the 
target wouldn't change much and you have to do that kind of burn rather 
often if you want optimal evasion. Another possible tactic would be to have 
the missile stop accelerating for 0.1 seconds (or less) while shooting. Not 
evading is after all a valid evasion tactic (unless you do it all the time 
or do it predictably).

<snip>

I agree with all the rest. I have designed fighter drones and automatic PD 
systems for battledress for this kind of war. Fighting a high tech war 
without support and gadgets must (most of the time) be like fighting modern 
day tanks with sticks and stones. On the largest flat surface you can 
imagine. In the dark. And you can't hide.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:26:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:26:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giants (was Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller)
In-Reply-To: <48.acc729f.2a00aad9@aol.com>
References: <48.acc729f.2a00aad9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020501132547.A30741@freeman.little-possums.net>

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
[I wrote:]
> > It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
> > 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
> > fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.
> 
> Got a reference for this?

Just my lecture notes at the moment, though I'm sure I can find a
suitable reference in the Uni library.  I've been meaning to go back
there for another study session soon anyway :)

Of course, these models are entirely theoretical: no diameters of real
superjovians have yet been measured to my knowledge.  A quick abstract
search confirms this as of March 2002.  I can find only two measured
diameters for verified extrasolar planets (via transit photometry),
both of sub-jovian mass.

Interestingly, one of the two appears somewhat larger than Jupiter --
1.35 times the diameter, but only about 70% of Jupiter's mass.  This
is almost certainly because it is *very* hot, orbiting just 0.045 AU
from a G0V star, and also because it has a relatively low mass so that
the pressure increase due to temperature is more able to overcome
gravity.

I would not be at all surprised if this is close to the largest planet
that will ever be found.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:33:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:33:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <200205010332.FJG00772@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
Message-ID: <F1790dwzd44lkw8Hbql00006d85@hotmail.com>

Please forgive the somewhat lighthearted tone of the message. It must be the 
hour.

>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>"Patrik Holmstrm" wrote:
> >
> > >From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> >
> > <snip of nice design>
>
>From a highly-regarded competitor in FF&S2 warship design, that's high
>praise!

Maybe we should start the "Club for Internal Admiration"? Hmm, I think I 
recognise those initials. :)

> > >Weaponry
> > >1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 
>[1,200/750-750-750-750]
> > >(LR)
> > >20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
> > >(LR)
> >
>>Personally I would replace these with laser bays since they are >>smaller 
>>(5x), lighter (2.5x), use less power (1.2x) and cost less (7.5x) (but you 
>>probably know all this). Yes, I know you like PAWs. :)
>
>OTOH, if one uses the optional D3 for laser damage in MCS (which I do),
>then PAWs (with their D6) are more destructive.  And I _like_
>destructive weapons.  _Especially_ destructive PAWs. ;-)

Now that you remaind I remember that I also use that rule. Dang! Well we 
will then have to roughly double the size of the mount. That will cut rather 
severly into our advantages but at least we now have a average damage that 
is 0.5 higher (16+2 vs 14+3.5) than the PAW mount though the laser mount 
still lack the doubled crew casulties.

Wait now I got it! The laser mount has superior traverse! Muhhha! I wan't to 
see your 44 m PAW triumf that! :)

>>>6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
>>>15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations
> >
>>Do you have a reason why you choose to carry more fuel than rations? >>My 
>>designs usually do the opposite and carry one year worth of >>rations and 
>>6 month of power plant fuel. My reasoning is that the >>powerplant fuel 
>>will  be refilled after every jump and that military >>ships will seldom 
>>be operated at full power and thus the fuel will >>last longer.
>
>Three reasons:
>
>1.  More leeway in the event of fuel loss due to damage.
>2.  Longer operating time in the event of a misjump or other calamity
>that causes the crew to retreat to the Emergency low berths (as you can
>see, the design has enough Emergency low berths to carry the entire >crew 
>at normal manning levels).
>3.  The default setting on the Akins spreadsheet for fusion plant fuel
>is one year.
>
>Note: these reasons are not necessarily in order of importance. :-)
>
Pretty good reasons all of them.

Now it's time to crawl into my cave since the daystar is rapidly approching.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 23:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 22:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F259XPec8O1AAwl6zO600006d73@hotmail.com>
References: <F259XPec8O1AAwl6zO600006d73@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020501152126.A30999@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> Well, FFS1 says that they "represent the integral fire control capabilities 
> of the weapon". They are required for "all heavy (non-small arm) laser, 
> particle accelerators and meson guns". A external sensor is still required 
> to the best of my knowledge.

OK.  So it isn't something required for any TL7 weapon, which is why I
couldn't find anything about it :)


> That depends on you defination of self-destructing. The regular CLC
> is used much like a rifle cartridge and the reaction is contained in
> the cartridge itself. I'm thinking more of something that explodes
> spectacularly.

I don't think it would make much difference.  If it's big enough to
self-destruct with 2 MJ/kg, you're not going to get a lot more power
out of anything chemical once you add in all the other apparatus
necessary to get an ultra-high power extremely tightly collimated
laser beam out of it.


> It won't matter since an entire fleet will be waiting for the target
> ship to stop manuevering in preparation of PD fire. The fleet will
> then fire and hit with every weapon it has disposable.

If the entire enemy fleet stops maneuvering to fire at one target
ship, they are themselves open to fire from the opposing fleet :)

Besides which, a very large ship can carry stabilisation gear that a
little missile can't.


> >(I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that the missile could
> >accelerate while still firing to an accuracy of 1 part per million)
> 
> The rules seem to disagree but I grant you that it would be something of an 
> engineering problem. I think Bruce Macintosh talked about laser accuracy a 
> couple of times but I can't remember if he mentioned something about 
> acceleration effects.

"Jerk."  That's not an insult, it's a technical term :)

Specifically, the term for rate of change of acceleration.  An evading
vehicle must change acceleration direction rapidly, which means that
stabilisation has to converge on the order of tens of milliseconds for
a missile to use its acceleration ability to best advantage, against a
jerk of thousands of gees per second.


> Another possible tactic would be to have the missile stop
> accelerating for 0.1 seconds (or less) while shooting.

0.1 seconds is very short time for even short-mode vibrations to damp
out from the jerk of not accelerating anymore.  Mind you, I don't
doubt that TL12 weapon mounts and fire control could do so, but us
poor mortals certainly couldn't.

Another thought: A high-RoF missile probably won't scratch the paint
of most ships -- after all, there's a limit to how much energy you can
deliver over a combat round, and breaking it up into lots of little
pieces just means you have more chances to hit for no damage.  One
ship's laser will vaporise a missile, since there just isn't enough
volume for anywhere near the same thickness of armour that a starship
can mount.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 03:21:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:21:45 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Red Army Chorus
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHEECMCEAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAIECMCKAA.redroach@pobox.com>



I personally think that the US National anthem sucks!
1. The ONLY national anthem that talks about war.
2. A notes that only professional singers can hit on key.
3. Only the communists know the words past the first verse!

Myself and a lot of Americans prefer "America the Beautiful".
They even voted on this in Congress a few years back.

(Rant Over)

MY TURN:
Too bad I am obviously an American who prefers and values the "Star Spangled
Banner."
Maybe we should take Franklin's idea and change our national bird to the
turkey.

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:10:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:10:39 -0600
Subject: [TML] Comm check
Message-ID: <3CA7A57F.EEFD8C@mail.cswnet.com>

ping ping ping ping ping

Here we go again.

ISS Agena at the outer beacon.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:15:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:15:40 -0600
Subject: [TML] Roseberry's HG2 used space craft lot
Message-ID: <3CA7A6AC.CCAACC8B@mail.cswnet.com>

Come on down and try out some of these beauties...
[all designs use HG2. Costs are standard, no arch fees, no discounts]
[TL per Ct]


Upshore class slow shuttle
Y2-0201111-030000-00001-0  TL10-12  95dt Crew=2
            1         2    Mcr26.325 standard 
            1         2
Fuel=4.25dt EP=.95 Agile=1 Cargo=60 Passenger couches=10
Bridge included.


Terp class armored space tanker
QK-0201111-330000-00001-0   TL10-11  40dt Crew=2
            1         2    Mcr16.33 Standard
            1         2
Fuel=1 EP=.4 Agile=1 Bridge included. Tanker Fuel=20dt


Gaku N'aGak class slow modular cutter
Uses same 30dt standard modules as the regular cutter.

Gaku N'aGak class, frame section only
YY2-0203411-030000-00001-0   TL10-12  10dt
             1         2    Mcr9.05 standard  Crew=2
             1         2
Fuel=1.8 EP=.4 Agile=3

Gaku N'aGak class, frame and module section
YY2-0201111-030000-00001-0  TL10-12  40dt
             1         2    Mcr9.05 plus cost of module
             1         2    Crew=2
Fuel=1.8 EP=.4 Agile=1

Modules shown in Adventure 7.


"Cyberspeed" orbital racing speeder
QF-0606701-000000-00000-0 TL9-12  4.5dt
no weapons                Mcr5.885 std Crew=1
Fuel=1 EP=.315 Agile=6 no bridge. Mod1 computer.


Standard Speeder using HG2
VF-0106601-000000-00000-0 TL9-12  6dt
no weapons               Mcr6.52 std 
Fuel=1.08 Ep=.36 Agile=6 Crew=1 Passenger couch=1
no bridge. Mod1 computer. Cargo=.82


Plop designs historical series:  The Jetsons Speeder
NVF-0103311-000000-00000-0 TL9-12  9dt
no weapons                Mcr6.718 std Crew=1
Fuel=1 EP=.27 Agile=3 Cargo=0
1 pilot couch, 4 passenger couches.
1 jump capsule launcher, with 3 capsule ready storage.
4 jump capsules available.
Unfortunately, the designers at the Plop works haven't figured
out how to stick 9dt speeder into a briefcase. Studies continue.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:20:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:20:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Comm check
Message-ID: <200204010020.DBV00016@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
>
>ping ping ping ping ping
>
>Here we go again.
>
>ISS Agena at the outer beacon.
>

Greetings Agena!  This is Bob Marks of Bob's Duty Free Goods 
and Taxi Service!  Welcome! Welcome!  We have specials on 
clothing, liquor, and specialty foods!  Don't buy the tourist 
stuff they sell in the starport!  Nobody pays retail when 
they can buy from Bob!

We even have free coupons for a 10 percent discount on 
refined fuel!  If you have passengers on board, we can take 
them direct to their destination dirtside for only 10cr!

Act now, and we'll throw in a free hot lunch of charbroiled 
steak!

We can match vectors and be alongside in 10 minutes!  How 
about it?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:41:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jason Barnabas)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 16:41:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Real Life? Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <h2bcaugf7hmmg8npll01nedlk3cv051sqi@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1d915$efff2160$2c617043@jbathome>

JR Holmes wrote:
<snippers>
>I'm jealous.  Of course, from San Diego, I would be beyond any distant
>end of any trip you might be considering (in Wisconsin, on Lake
>Michigan).  Ah well, the joys and sorrows of living on the Central
>Coast.

Well JR, I could plan to end up on the bonny shores (I'm assuming 
they are bonny) of Lake Michigan via the Saint Lawrence Seaway.  
So, no it is not entirely out of the question.  After all if I'm 
going to sail all the way from San Diego harbor to the Chesapeake 
Bay, what's a few thousand more miles.

I believe that both Green Bay and Milwaukee are port cities.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:40:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:40:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Real Life? Intrudes
Message-ID: <200204010040.DBV00674@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Jason Barnabas" says
>
>Well JR, I could plan to end up on the bonny shores (I'm 
>assuming they are bonny) of Lake Michigan via the Saint 
>Lawrence Seaway.  
>So, no it is not entirely out of the question.  After all if 
>I'm going to sail all the way from San Diego harbor to the 
>Chesapeake Bay, what's a few thousand more miles.
>

There are a fair number of us near the Chesapeake Bay.
Yeah, as long as you're going from Regina to Sol, what's 
a few more jumps here or there.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:43:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:43:07 EST
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
Message-ID: <16b.b4fbf3e.29d9071b@aol.com>

--part1_16b.b4fbf3e.29d9071b_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> Just finished going through what will be a rather long
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units
> in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may
> differ.
> <snip>

   I'd like a copy as well :)
  -Ken-
 


--part1_16b.b4fbf3e.29d9071b_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>
<BR>"John T. Kwon" wrote:
<BR>
<BR>&gt; Just finished going through what will be a rather long
<BR>&gt; document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units
<BR>&gt; in Traveller. &nbsp;Just a guide, mind you. &nbsp;Your mileage may
<BR>&gt; differ.
<BR>&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I'd like a copy as well :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR> 
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_16b.b4fbf3e.29d9071b_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:49:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:49:20 EST
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
Message-ID: <118.f28a399.29d90890@aol.com>

--part1_118.f28a399.29d90890_boundary
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> Generating a large number of systems shows a possible anomaly in the rules
> for life generation. Approximately ten times the number of complex animals
> evolved in Earthlike conditions are evolved on icy rockballs with
> subsurface oceans. This is also true for sentinent lifeforms.

Probably because there are a lot more icy rockballs than there are
Earthlike worlds.

If you come up with an adjustment that seems right to you, let me 
know - I'm told a reprint or second edition of First In is likely at some
point, so I'm assembling notes for changes to details of the world
generation sequence.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Generating a large number of systems shows a possible anomaly in the rules
<BR>&gt; for life generation. Approximately ten times the number of complex animals
<BR>&gt; evolved in Earthlike conditions are evolved on icy rockballs with
<BR>&gt; subsurface oceans. This is also true for sentinent lifeforms.
<BR>
<BR>Probably because there are a lot more icy rockballs than there are
<BR>Earthlike worlds.
<BR>
<BR>If you come up with an adjustment that seems right to you, let me 
<BR>know - I'm told a reprint or second edition of First In is likely at some
<BR>point, so I'm assembling notes for changes to details of the world
<BR>generation sequence.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_118.f28a399.29d90890_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:13:22 EST
Subject: [TML] Test
Message-ID: <c1.1e6bbd30.29d90e32@aol.com>

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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   Hey-Mailerdemon bounced my last message. Just testing :)
  -Ken-

--part1_c1.1e6bbd30.29d90e32_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hey-Mailerdemon bounced my last message. Just testing :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_c1.1e6bbd30.29d90e32_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:29:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:29:47 -0600
Subject: [TML] Real Life? Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <000501c1d915$efff2160$2c617043@jbathome>
References: <h2bcaugf7hmmg8npll01nedlk3cv051sqi@4ax.com> <000501c1d915$efff2160$2c617043@jbathome>
Message-ID: <5scfau8hccl722d5bgm5a6obo8hfh8eppg@4ax.com>

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 16:41:18 -0800, "Jason Barnabas"
<cyber0@prodigy.net> wrote:

>JR Holmes wrote:
><snippers>
>>I'm jealous.  Of course, from San Diego, I would be beyond any distant
>>end of any trip you might be considering (in Wisconsin, on Lake
>>Michigan).  Ah well, the joys and sorrows of living on the Central
>>Coast.
>
>Well JR, I could plan to end up on the bonny shores (I'm assuming=20
>they are bonny) of Lake Michigan via the Saint Lawrence Seaway. =20
>So, no it is not entirely out of the question.  After all if I'm=20
>going to sail all the way from San Diego harbor to the Chesapeake=20
>Bay, what's a few thousand more miles.
>
>I believe that both Green Bay and Milwaukee are port cities.

Green Bay and Milwaukee (and Duluth on Lake Superior) are deep water
ports suitable for ocean-going ships.  There are a couple of dozen
other harbors which are easily suitable for a 39 footer.  The sailing
season here is only about 6 months long, so it would become a matter
of timing.  The Chesapeake is a fair bit more temperate than the Great
Lakes can be (which isn't saying much if you know about the bad
reputation that the Chesapeake has).

As a minor benefit, and reaching back to my collegiate sailing days, I
understand that the slime which builds up on your hull while passing
through Lake Erie is closely akin to the "Go-Fast" coating that ocean
racers spend hundreds applying to their hulls.

Unfortunately, this is the last year that the annual GenCon gaming
convention will be taking place in Milwaukee (its moving to
Indianapolis), because it takes place in early August and coincided
with the Wisconsin State Fair and was close to a number of very large
summer festivals.  That would have been a good time goal to shoot for.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:37:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 17:37:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Trip time question
Message-ID: <200204010137.RAA27635@molly.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
>> Actually B is how many *hours* of burn endurance were used. Sorry I should 
>> have been more specific
>
>In that case, the formula as written is incorrect.  The delta-V should
>be doubled.  (22 mi/s per g-hour, or 35 km/s)

The real problem is that TS is using a weird definition -- what is written
as 'delta-V' is really 'average trip speed'.  If you look around, you 
discover that it assumes both acceleration and deceleration, and should
be doubled for a one-way trip.

Personally, I think that's confusing, but it is the way the rules work.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:55:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] just looking around
Message-ID: <200204010155.DBX01369@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Was over at Walt Smith's page, and he had a big essay on 
piracy in his TU, which may or may not appeal to those who 
have been involved in rolling around on the topic.

However, he made a few interesting points.  Steal a small 
craft, and even if you only get a fraction of its value, 
you've made a lot of money.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:10:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 21:10:54 EST
Subject: [TML] Navy stuff
Message-ID: <16.1cbec3b9.29d91bae@aol.com>

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   Those interested in some other notes about Spaceships, navy structure, 
assignments and operations, damage control, and the like might want to check 
out Mark Chase's Mekton Z  page at 
http://www.meta-earth.com/metal/metalrpg.html#ch2
   The information is interesting, and some quite  _easily_ liftable for a 
Traveller campaign :)
  -Ken-

   "One of his tricks of persuasion was to cut open the breast of a victim, 
pull out the still beating heart, and gnaw upon it with great relish while 
the next menu object looked on in stark terror. No wonder few withheld 
information from L'Olonais"

   Blackbeard
   AH Games

  

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Those interested in some other notes about Spaceships, navy structure, assignments and operations, damage control, and the like might want to check out Mark Chase's Mekton Z &nbsp;page at 
<BR>http://www.meta-earth.com/metal/metalrpg.html#ch2
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;The information is interesting, and some quite &nbsp;_easily_ liftable for a Traveller campaign :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;"One of his tricks of persuasion was to cut open the breast of a victim, pull out the still beating heart, and gnaw upon it with great relish while the next menu object looked on in stark terror. No wonder few withheld information from L'Olonais"
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Blackbeard
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;AH Games
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_16.1cbec3b9.29d91bae_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:17:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:17:15 -0600
Subject: [TML] Testing
References: <B8CB9A45.3371C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CA7C32B.74BC120@premier.net>

Hmmm.  Did you turn off StripMIME?  A couple of posts came through in
the past couple of hours that were obviously not plain text.

Not a major issue for me, but it may well be an issue for digest
subscribers.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:40:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:40:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Encumbrance
In-Reply-To: <200203311634.DBF00567@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020331183941.009fc790@mindspring.com>

At 11:34 AM 3/31/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Haven't yet seen rules I like for encumbrance.  PCCS is very
>accurate, but takes too long to calculate.
>
>A good page
>
>http://call.army.mil/products/newsltrs/01-15/01-15ch11.htm

Actually, the entire site is good for those playing military/mercenary 
campaigns.

http://call.army.mil/products/newsltrs/01-15/01-15toc.htm


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
  Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:23:02 +0930 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Presidio class armoured cruiser
In-Reply-To: <3CA5611B.8EEF4422@premier.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204011221290.12785-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Antony;

 All I can say is that your designs have been copied and will be modified
for MTU. Thank you for the work. Great things to "liberate".

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 04:19:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:19:39 -0600
Subject: [TML] CT Ship Design mailing list
References: <OF14E5A3E8.5F7821AA-ON85256B8D.00573844@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CA7DFDB.C2CABA21@pobox.com>

William Lane wrote:

> about 7 months ago i entered the "Cortez" into Hot Rod Race. the Cortez was
> a modified Scout. well before the results where posted my company laid a
> bunch of people off including me.
>
> I was wondering if the person who ran the hot rod race was a member of the
> TML and could let me know what Standing The Cortez came in. or if someone
> could forward this to him it would be appreciated.
>

The Hot Rod race took place on the CT-Starships list.  The race results were:
                 Hellbent 20 pts
                 Abrr Chatlqaf 19
                 Princess Lucky 14
                 Cortez 12
                 Renown 10

Also, another quote re the Cortez...

--- In ct-starships@y..., "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@r...> wrote:
> <snip>
> My personal favourite design has to be Cortez, any ship that can stick
> closely to the rules and still manage Jump-4, 5G  with 2 tons reserved for
> beer has to be a good design :)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 04:24:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:24:37 EST
Subject: [TML] Splat gun
Message-ID: <197.49c174e.29d93b05@aol.com>

--part1_197.49c174e.29d93b05_boundary
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   Hi gang,
   After seeing stats for one of these things someplace on-line, I got to 
wondering just what exactly _IS_ an Aslan Splatgun anyhow?
  -Ken-

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi gang,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;After seeing stats for one of these things someplace on-line, I got to wondering just what exactly _IS_ an Aslan Splatgun anyhow?
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_197.49c174e.29d93b05_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 03:54:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:24:22 +0930 (CST)
Subject: [TML] boarding bots
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331144144.02480060@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204011313420.12785-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi laning:

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, laning wrote:

> I remember reading the article at the time.  Like most non-GDW magazine
> articles that proposed additional rules for Traveller, it added something
> far more powerful than would balance with the existing game rules.

 I think it was #64. Carried a "URP". I made a few servant bots. One
cyborg PC and then sort of lost interest. As it became a way of making
ultra powerful things that either  upset the game in favour of the team or
the opposition. So I ended up doing a sort of "Dune" trip about robots.
Forget the name of the provision against such things. <Butler?>

> Of course, I'm no happier than anyone else with the GDW robot rules in Book
> 8--or the computer rules, for that matter.  But, I shouldn't criticize,
> because I'm hardly qualified to write something better.  I don't think
> Moore's Law is infinitely recursive and in fact I think it's likely to
> reach its limit while most of us are still alive, so that doesn't jibe at
> all with the hardware rules.  Software rules are more problematical to
> devise.  Locomotion and manipulators _might_ be amenable to easy
> calculation for engineers experienced in such areas but that's only for
> current-day tech, so tech levels 8 through 15 or higher are anybody's
> guess.  The power requirements and power production do seem to have been
> second-guessed very intelligently and accurately by people on this list who
> sounded qualified.

 I was not familiar with computers or robotics at that time. So I let the
entire concept wither on the vine IMTU. But as I ressurect my game. I now
need to adress the matter. Book 8 seems to be in some areas weak and  in
other complex. I need more understanding and then create for MTU.

> BTW, Lord Ronin, if you ever phoned for tech support during the last days
> of Q-Link before it was ignominiously "sunsetted" then we may have spoken
> on the phone.  Although I never had my own account, it was still one of my
> duties to provide tech support.  At least, unlike most of the other AOL
> tech reps who were tasked with the same thing, I'd actually owned a couple
> of Commodore computers in my time.  The only computers on the tech reps'
> desks were IBM-compatibles, with a healthy scattering of Macs, also.  (Not
> 6502's, I said Macs.)  I am pleased to report I had an outstanding success
> rate on my Q-Link calls.  Which is a good thing, because there was many an
> evening when I was the _only_ tech available to answer Q-Link calls.  I had
> wanted to join one of the developers to be online for chat during the final
> moments, but I was busy working instead.

 no i doubt it was you I talked to, as you still have two ears. The one I
talked to got a very falming earful of what I thought about the rape,
torture and murder of Q-Link. Not to mention the stated deltetion of the
C= files from the HD area. BTW: want a copy of the non existent <if you
belive Steve C.> 2400 front end loader? I was part of the Q-Link
preservation group. C=64 Dungeon Arcade was may area. have it all the F-3
comments and still have the 90 catalogue. Now if I can find all the inn
ladies from the geopaint area for my BBS. But I won't delve into that
topic on llist. Oh on the FWIW part laning, I only use Commodore still.
Online with one at this moment at 14.4 going to 56k this upcoming month.
See me off list if you would like to know more about the current world of
Commodore and the new Commodore system comming out shortly.

 OBTRAV: There have been alot of PC platforms in the past. IMTU they are
all C= OS based. As that is what I belive in as the best OS for the user.
Personal opinion of course. IYTU what do you use as a computer standard?
is there a platform OS standard on all computer using tech level worlds?
Does the 3I enforce a compliance of a specific computer OS platform? Or
are there multiple and semi if at all compatible OS units in your game
world?

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 06:01:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:01:28 +0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Kiev class light fleet carriers
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331105548.024beec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEGFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of laning
Sent: Sunday, 31 March 2002 11:59 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Kiev class light fleet carriers


Antony, why would Terra build a jump-1 warship?  It's more than one parsec
to Terra's nearest neighbor, IIRC.

And my prejudice against fighters/carriers is stronger for this class than
it was for the Consort.  I could see fighters used in commerce raiding as
well as commerce escort, but haven't found a use beyond that.

--Laning

The Kiev is capable of 1x jump-3 or upto 3x jump-1 or any combination. The
other thing to remember is that fighter carriers have been canon since CT.
The Kievs were also designed around the time of the First Solomani Rim war
so have been left behind somewhat by later developments.

Also in Traveller rulesystems (GT excepted, I don't know about T4, not
having that) A ships weapons can only engage one target per round regardless
of rate of fire (rate of fire just makes that target easier to hit). This
actually increases the survivability of fighters. Most of my fighter designs
still carry Nuclear Detonation missiles for a stand off capability.

From play testing I also found that in TNE at least fighters used
defensively are quite successful. Effectively giving a vessel like the Kiev
forty more laser turrets and missile launchers. Commerce raiders also tend
to be of cruiser class or less (the Azhanti High Lightnings were commonly
used for this) Against this type of vessel fighters are a threat. If not why
do the Lightnings for example carry so many light starfighters?

Anyway that is some of my thinking behind the class.

Antony



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 06:01:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:01:29 +0800
Subject: [TML] Presidio class armoured cruiser
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204011221290.12785-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEGFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Lord Ronin from
Q-Link
Sent: Monday, 1 April 2002 10:53 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Presidio class armoured cruiser


Hoi Antony;

 All I can say is that your designs have been copied and will be modified
for MTU. Thank you for the work. Great things to "liberate".

BCNU


Why thank you my lord,
Praise from the praiseworthy is praise indeed.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 06:01:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:01:30 +0800
Subject: [TML] GT Ship Conversion from TML Post
In-Reply-To: <3CA72B79.1969.B92D3@localhost>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOEGFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of shadowcat
Sent: Monday, 1 April 2002 5:30 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] GT Ship Conversion from TML Post


I give you the Breton class light cruiser, I unfortunately have forgotten
who
posted the orginal, and my apologies for the omission of the persons name

That's Ok, the original FFS1 version was posted by me. Nice conversion.
Incidently Fremantle, named after the city in Western Australia not
Freemantle.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 04:24:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:24:18 -0600
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
References: <200203310432.DAH01551@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV57xlgF6ygG1pzOKJ000112d6@hotmail.com>

I'd be grateful for a copy.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"

> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages
> so far.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 07:18:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 02:18:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  The Traveller Movie (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <20020328202400.35905.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CA105D7.EB960833@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020328175158.02bd1c70@pop.wizard.net>

At 12:24 PM 3/28/02 -0800, someone wrote:
>How about this for a plot.  Somehow Norris gets wind
>of the assassination plot and heads to warn the
>Emperor.  Unfortunately misjump occurs and the ships
>can't continue.  The only option is the Free Trader
>Beowulf.

Good stuff.  I like it.   :->

Minor suspension of disbelief problem though.  Norris' ship misjumps while 
the rest of his escort fleet doesn't.  Somehow, his personal ship isn't 
able to continue on either.  I guess the misjump inflicted damage to the 
jump drive or something.  But for Norris to choose a free trader as his 
best alternative seems implausible.  Unless the Beowulf is the _only_ ship 
in system.  And even then, he'd transfer to a faster vessel at the first 
system that had one, and there'd be plenty of chances for that.  I guess 
the Beowulf would have to be not a free trader, but something with jump-5, 
and preferably a fast maneuever drive too, to reduce days spent maneuvering 
between jumps.  This suggests a very nonstandard ship or nonstandard 
history for what was once a standard ship.  I think that's good 
though.  Make the ship a separate character in the hearts of the 
audience.  Like the 'Millenium Falcon' only much more so.


>   Norris joins the crew and they head accross
>the rift because it is a speedier trip.  Our
>adventurers get to the Real Strephon on the way
>shortly before the news of the assassination reaches
>them.  I think the scene when the Real Emp meets
>Norris and the crew could be cool.

It seems like it takes some serious handwaving to have them bump into the 
real Strephon on the way.  But, yeah, it makes for a good scene and one 
that seems desirable to keep in the script.  It also takes some serious 
handwaving for Norris to get wind of the impending plot when he lives so 
far away from Dulinor and Dulinor's power base, as well as Capital.

But you have a good thing going with taking a high noble and throwing him 
in with the crew.  A major downside of that is it will remind some people 
too much of Princess Leia or Queen Amidala.  Hmm, maybe something involving 
a Zho instead of Norris.  we have to learn through the eyes of the 
merchant's crew that the Zho are not horrible mind rapers after all, and in 
fact are nice folks who like to prevent assassinations.  The Zhodani 
government might have more pragmatic reasons for trying to prevent the 
assassination, too.  They can't know the assassination is scheduled by GDW 
to initiate the break up of the Imperium.  From where they're sitting, it's 
a choice between Dulinor on the throne or Strephon.  And if they can 
arrange for Strephon to owe them big time for saving his bacon, all the better.

Yeah, thinking about it more.  The Zhodani own most of the mind reading 
market, would have a spy network that could pick up wind of Dulinor's plot 
in advance, and then they'd decide to tip off Strephon through people who 
are guaranteed to be loyal to Strephon.  They'd also be aware of the real 
Strephon and his whereabouts.  They transmit their message through their 
usual clandestine channels (diplomatic and spy network within the 
Imperium).  A small party of Zhodani, consisting of the diplomatic courier, 
his military escort, and Zhodani psionic adepts undercover as Imperial 
citizens who are additional security for the diplomatic courier but the 
courier himself is not aware of their true nature.  He thinks they're just 
Imperial citizens headed in the same direction, in a hurry for some 
plausible-sounding reason.  They run afoul of the misjump plot 
device.  They need transport now, and it has to be _fast_.  There's the 
'Beowulf', a 60-year-old merchant, that was bought surplus from the 
Imperial Navy where it was used as a small despatch courier.  It's held 
together by it's talented and devoted crew, who pay factors all over the 
sector to line up courier jobs for them, and thus eke out a living, and get 
to travel the universe.  The Zhodani party _needs_ the 'Beowulf' and 
they're in a hurry.

But, the 'Beowulf' crew are already on a scheduled job, and one that pays, 
and it's going in the opposite direction from where the Zhodani are 
headed.  Sure, the Zhodani can offer virtually unlimited pay to the Beowulf 
as inducement to drop their current courier job in favor of taking the 
Zhodani where they want to go.  But the Beowulf's crew are predisposed to 
disliking and mistrusting the hated Zho's.  Some plot tension and character 
tensions develop.  Some local subplots have to develop also, for the Zho 
and the Impies to struggle through together, and through these actions the 
Impies learn to see the Zho in a new light.  They begin to shed their 
prejudices, but hardly all at once.  Now they're not so sure that they're 
right to be automatically suspicious of the Zhodani.

The fabulous sums dangled by the Zhodani courier tip the scales.  And, 
fortuitously, the local factor (played by Sidney Greenstreet) who the 
'Beowulf' usually does business with, and is their friend and confidante, 
let's them know another ship has arrived in system (one of their 
urgent-delivery competitors) who can be paid to finish the delivery job the 
'Beowulf' is already on.  Still some lingering reservations about Zhodani, 
but they accept the charter and the Zhodani and the 'Beowulf' crew proceed 
together.  Through many jumps, including across the Rift.

The diplomatic courier is actually a very high ranking diplomat who would 
not normally be used merely as a courier, but the significance of this 
mission dictated that he be used partly to lend credibility to his message 
and partly because he is entrusted with a full briefing on the contents of 
his message and his empowered to negotiate directly with Strephon.

Realizing that too much distance/time has been lost because of the misjump, 
the diplomat has to change destination from the planet where the real 
Strephon was sojourning, to meeting Strephon en route as he travels back to 
Capital.  At each port of call, he must contact the local Zhodani consulate 
or spy to pick up the latest news on the precise location reported for the 
real Strephon.  Some minor adventures are associated with meeting these 
local contacts, and the Beowulf crew are required for getting safely 
through these dirtside adventures.  More bonding with the Zhodani.  Their 
reservations and prejudices continue to erode but are not entirely gone 
yet.  Too many centuries of bad history, not to mention the ugly memories 
from the recent FFW.  The crew continues wearing psionic shield devices at 
all times.

The two groups continue working together and are now extremely close to the 
real Strephon.  But the crew keeps wondering why the diplomat keeps playing 
games with naming their final destination (the diplomat doesn't _know_ the 
final destination, he can only guess at the best intercept course to catch 
Strephon).  Finally, one last jump will catch Strephon's caravan.  But 
exactly which jump?  Guess wrong, and more time is lost and Strephon will 
get further away, because he is travelling at jump-6 maneuever-6, a 
combined speed that the 'Beowulf' can almost but not quite match.  (I think 
the Beowulf should be jump-6 maneuever-5 agility-5.) Guess right, and bingo 
they're in the same system as Strephon and can initiate communications and 
arrange a meeting.  The diplomat doesn't have the expertise to predict the 
right jump destination with reasonable chance of success.  He needs all the 
navigational expertise the Beowulf crew can give him.  But for that, he 
needs to tell them a lot more about the identity of the person he is 
chasing that he really wants to.  The 'Beowulf' captain tells the diplomat 
she needs a lot more info from him, he is too vague, she can't predict what 
he's asking without knowing a lot more about the party they're trying to 
catch up to.  Another hurdle to clear in building trust.  And when he does 
tell her, what do she and her crew make of a Zhodani diplomat escorted by 
two hired Zhodani killers who is desperate to catch up to Strephon but 
doesn't want anybody to know?  Suspicious, eh?  More trust-building hurdles 
to clear.  Finally, the Zhodani diplomat and the 'Beowulf's' retired 
Imperial Navy captain trust each other enough to work together. Even then, 
using all their pooled smarts and experience, it's a dice roll whether 
they've guessed the right place to jump and intercept Strephon.  They're 
now in jump space for a week, waiting, anxious.  The captain:  am I right 
to trust this Zho or are they duping me and I'm bringing an assassin to 
meet my vulnerable Emperor?  The diplomat:  these fearful, paranoid, 
suspicious, Impies.  I envy them their freedom and wildness, but how can I 
be gambling so much on the success of a perfect example (the captain) of 
just such wildness?  Is the captain intentionally misleading me?  (Still 
wearing her psi shield, or maybe just one of those rare one-in-a-million 
immunes to telepathic reading.) And if not, did the captain guess the right 
jump destination?  Tension builds.

Did I mention that the diplomat is a man and the captain a woman?  I mean, 
come on.  We can't make a movie like this without some sort of romantic 
interests! Both a young-looking forties, both played by very attractive 
actors?  And is that...sexual tension (!) underlying their many 
disagreements and negotiations during these weeks of travel and adventure?

Things happen during the week of this last jump.  But neither of them seem 
willing to publicly admit to the wild and delirious passions they shared 
during the quietest hours of this last jump, they tried to keep their 
trysts a secret, and we think they've succeeded.  Do they still refuse to 
admit to themselves even that they are falling in love (or at least serious 
lust) with someone from a foreign and looked-down-upon civilization?  To 
the captain, Zhodani equals mind raping totalitarian who doesn't care about 
individuals.  To the diplomat, Imperial equals barbaric, psychologically 
stunted and bloodthirsty individuals who run amok only slightly less than 
wild vargr do.

I'm thinking Sigourney Weaver, Renee Russo, or maybe Nicole Kidman for the 
captain.  Somebody who is an excellent actress, has sex appeal, and can 
carry off being physical and adventurous, and also a bit world weary.  The 
diplomat has to have an aristocratic British accent of course <G> and also 
be a talented enough actor to carry off being strong, independent and 
capable, but somehow project an indefinable vulnerability and need for 
protection while travelling through such "barbaric" provinces.  Best 
casting I've come up with for him so far is Hugh Jackman, who seems pretty 
good.

There should also be a couple of romantic storylines for minor characters 
in the two parties.  Perhaps the aide to the diplomat and one of the ship's 
crew.  It doesn't take them long to acknowledge their interest in each 
other.  They should be fairly uncomplicated and likable characters. and the 
audience should be sympathetic to them.  They still have to overcome the 
outside barriers to their love of conventional prejudices and their mutual 
bosses being somewhat disapproving.  The second romantic storyline should 
involve one person from each party, also.  I'd like for there to be a vargr 
in each group.  I guess that means either one of the undercover Zhodani is 
a vargr, or one of the military escorts.  Perhaps both escorts should be 
from a vargr unit that has been part of the Zhodani Consulate for centuries 
and has a long and honorable tradition of guarding diplomatic missions and 
embassies.  Alternatively, if you want to play the alien race romance angle 
for much broader laughs, one of the romantic pair can be vargr while the 
other is aslan.  The first romantic pairing should be consummated 
(off-screen, this is a G or PG movie) before the two main characters have 
their trysts.  The second, alien-race pairing should be after.

The climactic scene of the film should be final jump succeeds at arriving 
in the correct star system, and succeeds at guessing where in the star 
system would be the smartest place to intercept Emperor Strephon's 
incognito small fleet.  (Smart deductions, plus a very good dice roll from 
someone with very high Navigation skill.  :-)  There are then a few quick 
scenes where the 'Beowulf' signals the Emperor's ship, recognition codes 
are exchanged between the diplomat and a high advisor of the Emperor's, and 
we see from the bridge of our beloved 'Beowulf', over the shoulder of the 
diplomat who is standing behind the pilot and captain, the form of the 
light cruiser carrying the Emperor growing larger and larger.  Docking is 
imminent, and we get a quick cut of the Fire Control Officer aboard the 
Emperor's ship in continuous contact with the Fire Control Officers on the 
escort vessels, advising them the approaching merchant has been recognized 
as friendly but maintain targeting lock with bay and spinal mount 
weapons.  The 'Beowulf' exterior is shown, looking rather small docked 
against the frontier cruiser that carries Strephon.

Those quick scenes should serve to introduce a few characters of the 
Emperor's party who will become prominent in the sequel.  Minor reference 
to them by name might have been made very quickly earlier in the film.  The 
final scene of the film is the entire party ushered into an extremely 
impressive yet informal audience chamber, the rest of the party left near 
the entrance under very professional guard and the diplomat and aide 
escorted forward to be formally introduced to the Emperor.  We see the 
Emperor moving forward with innate grace and noble bearing, and a curious 
smile.  Be sure to look for the sequel soon in theaters everywhere.

I like to picture the characters encountering at least a dozen Imperial 
Guard in full battledress from the moment they board the ship and all the 
into the audience chamber itself.  Starting with two in battledress as they 
pass through the airlock.  Perhaps one of the earlier minor difficulties 
the 'Beowulf' crew and diplomats had to overcome involved a graphic 
demonstration for the audience's benefit of just how amazingly capable 
battle dress can be.  Forget Boba Fett in 'Star Wars' and think more like 
the 'Predator' but with military weaponry instead of hunting weaponry.

I'd like to devise more about the individual characters, and flesh out more 
of the storyline, particularly the various minor adventures besetting the 
two parties during their journey and how these adversities draw them closer 
together over time.  And yes, I know we can't cast Sidney Greenstreet as 
the factor/friend because he's dead.  :->  How about uhhhhh Oliver Platt??

I think the rival fast merchant that took over our protagonist merchant's 
delivery should make a reappearance in the second film.  The trick is going 
to be casting Dulinor and writing the scenes to show his arrogant and 
decidedly lethal plans to assassinate the Emperor but only because he 
thinks it is for the greater good.  We have to show that he loves the 
Imperium, likes and respects Strephon, but just thinks there is only one 
sophont who is the right soph for the job at this critical juncture in 
history.  He goes through some soul searching, but we TMLers already know 
the answers he comes up with.  The Dulinor scenes should show all this, but 
be very economical and not take a lot of screen time.  Dulinor should be 
played by someone very tall and an obviously very fit physical 
specimen.  Lucan...?  I'm seeing Joaquin Phoenix, who did such a great job 
in a similar role in 'Gladiator'.

That's what I have so far, folks.  Comments?

--Laning
(traveller geek code is MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 08:12:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:12:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <DAV16h3lrGS1DknvCes0001cd0f@hotmail.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?  What does canon say on =
this?

Some parameters here:  I'm not talking about hijacking a ship, nor am I =
talking about ship theft incidental to piracy.

Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved in stealing a =
starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.

It seems to me the problem can be considered as four separate issues:

1.  Identifying a likely (unoccupied) target that can be operated by a =
prize crew no larger than the size of your theft team.  Scout ships =
(which often fulfill these conditions) will be targeted for theft much =
more frequently than battlecruisers (which hardly ever do).

It seems one could accomplish this step with visual surveillance, inside =
information from the ships crew or spaceport personnel, and/or Neural =
Activity Sensors.

2.  Approaching the vessel.

This ranges from child's play (an unguarded scout grounded in a sparsely =
populated area with the sole pilot/crewmember dead or distant), to an =
indirect form of suicide (an experimental warship docked at the naval =
base.)

Presumably, accomplishing this would be well nigh impossible at an A =
starport, non-trivial at a B and your better C's, and not beyond the =
realm of consideration at lesser facilities.

3.  Entering the vessel.

Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let you in. <g> =20

How do starships determine who to admit?  Whoever holds the key?  =
Voiceprints?  Biometrics?  Passwords?  Some combination?  Given =
sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar (doubtful) or a cutting =
torch (probably)? =20

Having forced your way in what active countermeasures do you have to =
defeat?  Does the ship send combat bots?  Does the environmental system =
become hostile?  Does an anti theft program deliberately destroy the =
Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the j-drive useless?

4.  Establishing vessel control.

Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do you get the starship =
to respond to your commands?  When you plop down on the pilot's couch =
what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver drive?  =
Again, is there a key?  Biometrics?  PIN numbers?  How much trouble =
would there be in performing the starship analog of a hot-wire job?

Awaiting feedback.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com




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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?&nbsp; =
What does=20
canon say on this?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Some parameters here:&nbsp; I'm not talking about =
hijacking a=20
ship, nor am I talking about ship theft incidental to =
piracy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved =
in stealing=20
a starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It seems to me the problem can be considered as four =
separate=20
issues:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>1.&nbsp; Identifying a likely (unoccupied) target =
that can be=20
operated by a prize crew no larger than the size of your theft =
team.&nbsp; Scout=20
ships (which often fulfill these conditions)&nbsp;will be targeted for =
theft=20
much more frequently than battlecruisers (which hardly ever =
do).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It seems one could accomplish this step&nbsp;with =
visual=20
surveillance, inside information from the ships crew or spaceport =
personnel,=20
and/or Neural Activity Sensors.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>2.&nbsp; Approaching the vessel.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This ranges from child's play (an unguarded scout =
grounded in=20
a sparsely populated area with the sole pilot/crewmember dead or =
distant), to an=20
indirect form of suicide (an experimental warship docked at the naval=20
base.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Presumably, accomplishing this would be well nigh =
impossible=20
at an A starport, non-trivial at a B and your better C's, and not beyond =
the=20
realm of consideration at lesser facilities.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>3.&nbsp; Entering the vessel.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let =
you in.=20
&lt;g&gt;</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>How do starships determine who to admit?&nbsp; =
Whoever holds=20
the key?&nbsp; Voiceprints?&nbsp; Biometrics?&nbsp; Passwords?&nbsp; =
Some=20
combination?&nbsp; Given sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar=20
(doubtful) or a cutting torch (probably)?&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Having forced your way in what active =
countermeasures do you=20
have to defeat?&nbsp; Does the ship send combat bots?&nbsp; Does the=20
environmental system become hostile?&nbsp; Does an anti theft program=20
deliberately destroy the Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the =
j-drive=20
useless?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>4.&nbsp; Establishing vessel control.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do =
you get the=20
starship to respond to your commands?&nbsp; When you plop down on the =
pilot's=20
couch what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver=20
drive?&nbsp; Again, is there a key?&nbsp; Biometrics?&nbsp; PIN =
numbers?&nbsp;=20
How much trouble would there be in performing the starship analog of a =
hot-wire=20
job?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Awaiting feedback.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:texasredshift@hotmail.com">texasredshift@hotmail.com</A></=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 08:42:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:42:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204010842.AAA08687@molly.iii.com>

"Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com> writes:

>How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?  What does canon say on =
>this?

Canon says little that I know of.  Generally, I assume it's hard.

>Some parameters here:  I'm not talking about hijacking a ship, nor am I =
>talking about ship theft incidental to piracy.
>
>Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved in stealing a =
>starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.
>
>It seems to me the problem can be considered as four separate issues:
>
>1.  Identifying a likely (unoccupied) target that can be operated by a =
<snip>. Not a huge problem, unless there's something unusual going on.

>2.  Approaching the vessel.

Agree.  This is dependent on assumptions about computerization; robots 
in most versions of traveller might be smart enough to object, though
by and large they won't be permitted to shoot you outright.
>
>3.  Entering the vessel.
>
>Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let you in. <g> =20
>
>How do starships determine who to admit?  Whoever holds the key?  =
>Voiceprints?  Biometrics?  Passwords?  Some combination?  Given =
>sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar (doubtful) or a cutting =
>torch (probably)? =20

For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't get
in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
do the ship much good, however.

>Having forced your way in what active countermeasures do you have to =
>defeat?  Does the ship send combat bots?  Does the environmental system =
>become hostile?  Does an anti theft program deliberately destroy the =
>Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the j-drive useless?

Most likely, none of the above; the ship yells for help and goes into 
lockdown mode.  Paranoid owners could easily equip the ship with kill
switches in a few critical concealed junctions.

>4.  Establishing vessel control.
>
>Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do you get the starship =
>to respond to your commands?  When you plop down on the pilot's couch =
>what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver drive?  =
>Again, is there a key?  Biometrics?  PIN numbers?  How much trouble =
>would there be in performing the starship analog of a hot-wire job?

For higher tech ships, most likely you're defeating biometrics, plus a
rather smart robot brain.  Unless you can steal startup information from
the owner, most likely you're talking hours or days of work, particularly
if kill switches have been installed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 08:59:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 03:59:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>
>For higher tech ships, most likely you're defeating 
>biometrics, plus a rather smart robot brain.  Unless you can 
>steal startup information from the owner, most likely you're 
>talking hours or days of work, particularly if kill switches 
>have been installed.
>
I have the feeling that an Imperial ability to commandeer 
your ship is a factor here.  Currently, the penalty for 
failing to obey orders when boarded has a variety of 
punishments, ranging from large fines, to loss of your 
license, loss of your ship (which may belong to your 
employer, not you), and probable jail time.  Even if they 
don't find anything else wrong.

There are probably locks of some sort.  But imagine if the 
crew was disabled by a malfunctioning life support system, 
and headed on a hazardous course.  Under your system, no 
rescue crew would be able to board normally, and if they did, 
they couldn't fly the ship.

I would bet that some locking system exists.  But probably 
not one that would then become more defensive if the locks 
were bypassed.  The locks are probably designed to defeat the 
majority of criminals, not those with sophisticated equipment 
(like the Imperial Navy).  It's probably coded into the 
ship's software by law -- even if they don't have the 
password or keys to get in, the Navy can override your ship's 
computer and seize control using simple, but sophisticated 
equipment when they board.

There might even be an interface that works through your 
transponder's software.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 09:03:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (P-O Bergstedt)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 11:03:17 +0200
Subject: [TML] Burn Heretic, Burn!
Message-ID: <3CA82255.1CACE976@berka.com>

After 102 votes, the Heresy IMTU poll is now closed.

In TATU (The Average Traveller Universe),
almost everyone is a heretic.

The result was: 
he++   23.53%
he+    51.96%
he     15.69%
he-     7.84%
he--    0.98%

Compare this result with previous poll:
http://zho.berka.com/polls.html

(The new poll is about Drop Tanks.)

  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN
/ * A o \_____/       \_____
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:24:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:24:11 +0800
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8A5CB.29530.200B430@localhost>

Hi all!

On 1 Apr 2002, at 3:59, John T. Kwon wrote:

> There are probably locks of some sort.  But imagine if the 
> crew was disabled by a malfunctioning life support system, 
> and headed on a hazardous course.  Under your system, no 
> rescue crew would be able to board normally, and if they did, 
> they couldn't fly the ship.
> 

Personally, I don't think that rescue ships would be all that likely 
anyway.  Salvage ships, maybe, but not rescue ships.

BUT, even if there were rescue ships, I bet they would have similar 
equipment to salvage ships (I'm thinking the beginning of /Aliens/ 
here) -- super-heavy-duty laser cutters, universal airlock adapters, 
the whole works.  If there really /is/ an emergency, and the rescue 
crew is authorized to enter the ship, they're not going to want to 
wait for the proper codes from Central Command and then for the 
locks to recognize them.  Parallel: In a car wreck, the paramedics 
don't try to find the right key, they just get out the Jaws of Life.  

In other words, I think that gaining access to a ship by pretending 
to be a legit authority would be quite hard, but blasting your way in, 
if you could first disable the crew, would be relatively easy.  I guess 
it depends on your final purpose...?

-- Rachel

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:51:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:51:48 PST
Subject: [TML] Splat gun
In-Reply-To: <197.49c174e.29d93b05@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20401.025148.6F4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>    Hi gang,
>    After seeing stats for one of these things someplace on-line, I got to 
> wondering just what exactly _IS_ an Aslan Splatgun anyhow?

Probably derived from the Centran splat gun. Find a copy of the
recently expanded re-issue of Christopher Anvil's "Pandora's Planet"
for an interesting story, and some examples of why Scouts have
nightmares. 


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:35:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:35:18 PST
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20020401084436.C5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Well, you actually *could* use EM fields to steer a high temp plasma
>> "plume" outside of the ship and retreive the cooled ions. <g>
>
> Not if you're looking to be stealthy!
>
> There is also the problem of pumping waste heat up to enormous
> temperatures, requiring something like 99.99% efficiency every step of
> the way.

Actually, if you are using a fusion reactor that involves magnetically
confined plasma, 8000 K is a quite *low* temp for the "exhaust" end of
the cycle. <g>


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:58:03 PST
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020401084647.D5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20401.025803.2u9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> On the other hand, a straight line course to the jump limit in a
>> direction at right angles to the line joining the start and end points
>> of the jump, and then accelerating at an angle to get the right vector
>> might be simpler. More time, but only two vectors to figure.
>
> Yes, it's simpler.  That's the course that ships lacking a navigator
> might take :)

Navigators prefer to minimize heading changes for some strange reason.
<g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:53:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:53:53 PST
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020401083839.B5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20401.025353.0o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> I'd say +/- 100 km/s is probably considered "good enough" most of
>> the time.
>
> For the destination system, yes.  Of course, if there is any leeway at
> all, freighter captains are probably going to arrive as "hot" as they
> can within those limits.  Time is money, and arriving with a 50 km/s
> inward vector instead of 0 saves about 3 hours.
>
> 3 hours doesn't necessarily sound like much out of a week's trip, but
> it does save about 5 Cr per dton of cargo and (probably more
> importantly) increases the chance of getting into port before a
> competitor does.

The problem is that if you were aiming for a point "ahead" of the
planet, and came out of jump late, your vector will be *away* from the
planet because you are now "behind" it. 

That is, your vector is pointed at where the planet was when you
expected to emerge from jump, which is behind where it is when you
*actually* come out of jump.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:03:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (P-O Bergstedt)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:03:29 +0200
Subject: [TML] GRUPS Traveller Reviews
Message-ID: <3CA85AA1.175A2553@berka.com>

Read some reviews of some new
GRUPS Traveller products at URL:
http://zho.berka.com/review.html

  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN
/ * A o \_____/       \_____
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:10:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 05:10:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] re: Real Life Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020330213337.009e8010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020401131058.13191.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Did somebody watch Jaws when they were not quite old
enough?  That would probably do it. :)

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I can't stand to be in water where I can't see the
> bottom.  I'm a basket 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:23:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 07:23:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] F15D Scorpion Recon Fighter TL 11
Message-ID: <3CA80B0E.6302.4EB743@localhost>

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A Recon fighter design for the Consort and Kiev, Thanks for the Inspiration Anthony



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     File:  F15C Scorpion 15T Fighter TL11.gtv
     Date:  1 Apr 2002, 7:16
     Size:  6244 bytes.
     Type:  Unknown

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--Message-Boundary-11333--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:30:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:30:54 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Playing around even more with the First In design sequence (hey, what else
am I supposed to do on a day like this?), I decided to calculate how the
number of places where complex animals (sentinent or non-sentinent) have
evolved are distributed over various world types.

I made a large (400.000 systems) data set, using a modifier of -11 to the
roll (in step 15) for icy rockballs with subsurface oceans. This is what I
came up with:

Subgiant :  1%
Nitrogen : 37%
Ammonia  : 20%
Desert   : 10%
Icy sub. : 11%
Earthlike: 21%

(ie 21% of all complex animals in the dataset evolved under Earthlike
conditions)

These numbers clearly do not match the OTU, since the most common forms of
advanced life there are evolved under Earthlike conditions (including all
of the major races).

I would be happy to try various modifications and see how they affect the
statistics, but I need something to aim for. How should advanced lifeforms
be distributed over the various world types?

Jon, all you need to do is to give me a set of percentages (as above), and
I'll happily tweak the modifiers to match those percentages.

A suggestion for a future reprint of GT: First In would be to include two
sets of modifiers for step 15: One that produces Traveller-like results,
and one that seems more in line with current science. To keep consistency
with the rest of the design sequence, the more realistic set would
probably be the default, while the Traveller-like set could be introduced
in a sidebar.

I think I may now call myself "rockhead"...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:40:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:40:59 +0200
Subject: [TML] Slightly OT: Transhuman space
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020330131738.009ec080@mindspring.com>
References: <20020330204047.4b56a9ad.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020330131738.009ec080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020401154059.1a5d3a2a.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Sleep when you're dead.  I haven't been able to determine if Warehouse
23 
> will deliver to the afterlife yet.  Damn fine book, and you can see why
i 
> want to adapt parts of it to Traveller.

I have now skimmed most of the book. Careful studies will have to wait
until I have properly studied what I really should study...  ;-)

I think I'll use this setting more or less as-is in order to introduce
some of my players to the joy of hard SF. If I tone down the most advanced
technologies a bit, things would be quite easy for newcomers to grasp.

Starting the game in 2041 would do the trick, focusing on the exposure of
the Ares conspiracy for starters, then more or less slowly (a few years at
a time) advance the campaign. This would allow all the developments to
come into focus, allowing exposure on every one of them.

Then, just for fun, I might throw in jump drive invention and the
encounter at Barnard's Star...  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 12:08:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:08:25 +0200
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <118.f28a399.29d90890@aol.com>
References: <118.f28a399.29d90890@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020401140825.473e1a87.jenry023@student.liu.se>

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> Probably because there are a lot more icy rockballs than there are
> Earthlike worlds.

Yes, absolutely. Also, icy rockballs are more likely to exist in older
star systems (around class M stars for instance), which increases the
complexity of native life.

Since canon doesn't have two thirds of all sentinent lifeforms living
under such conditions, the results are still strange to me.

These are my estimated probabilities of complex animal life (sentinent or
otherwise) on various world types:

Earthlike: 77%
Icy w/ subsurface: 46%
Nitrogen: 26%
Ammonia: 15%
Desert: 7%
Subgiant: 7%

If you want to tweak these numbers, what you need to do is to add
modifiers to the dice roll in step 15 of the design sequence.

Note: Since the design sequence is relatively complex, the exact numbers
should be taken with a grain of salt. In order to get better numbers, I
need to generate larger quantities of solar systems. I'll be happy to this
if you want better numbers.

> If you come up with an adjustment that seems right to you, let me 
> know - I'm told a reprint or second edition of First In is likely at
some
> point, so I'm assembling notes for changes to details of the world
> generation sequence.

Adding the following to Step 15 should do it:

"-X for icy rockballs with subsurface oceans"

where X is a number depending on the effect you desire.

X=0   Ten times more common than sentinence under Eartlike conditions
X=4   About five to six times more common
X=6   About three times more common
X=8   About 1.5 times more common
X=10  About 1.5 times LESS common (ie 0.67 times as common)
X=11  About 2.5 times LESS common (ie 0.4 times as common)

Note: The numbers above were relatively quickly generated, and are only to
be loosely trusted.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 12:12:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:12:23 +0200
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Timothy Little wrote:
<snip>
> Can a low-power organism afford power-hungry brain matter of the type
> you would expect for sentience?  If you're looking for an excuse, this
> should do.

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable explanation, thanks.  ;-)

Actually, the main reason I dislike the results is that they don't give
normal science-fiction settings. In a universe where the ideal habitat for
most sentinent races is an icy rockball, various classic SF stereotypes
don't fit in. In fact, in Traveller, most races are evolved under Eartlike
conditions, so the other numbers are also strange in that regard.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 14:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:13:17 -0500
Subject: [TML] 2 tons of beer and 4th place 8) (was CT Ship Design)
Message-ID: <OFCD639861.BF4D0240-ON85256B8E.004C0CE0@pheaa.org>







<snip>
>> about 7 months ago i entered the "Cortez" into Hot Rod Race. the Cortez
was
>> a modified Scout. well before the results where posted my company laid a
>> bunch of people off including me.
>>
</snip>
>>

>The Hot Rod race took place on the CT-Starships list.  The race results
were:
>                 Hellbent 20 pts
>                 Abrr Chatlqaf 19
>                 Princess Lucky 14
>                 Cortez 12
>                 Renown 10

WOO HOO! 4th place 8) i was so sure John and I would come in last. Not bad.
So you know Cortez is the scout ship of one of my NPC's Maria Vasquez. She
is a hot pilot and Johns char is a hot Engineer. between the two of them
nothing they can not do 8)

>Also, another quote re the Cortez...
--- In ct-starships@y..., "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@r...> wrote:
>> <snip>
>> My personal favourite design has to be Cortez, any ship that can stick
>> closely to the rules and still manage Jump-4, 5G  with 2 tons reserved
for
>> beer has to be a good design :)
WOO HOO!
I love it. if i can find a way to use this as my sig to the TML with out
spaming the rest of work with it ill do it 8) Besides you never work on a
hot rod with out beer 8)

Bill Lane

"My personal favourite design has to be Cortez, any ship that can stick
closely to the rules and still manage Jump-4, 5G  with 2 tons reserved for
beer has to be a good design :)" Jeff Greenly


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 14:32:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 09:32:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] City Class Frigate
Message-ID: <3CA86F98.CFB1CEB2@mindspring.com>

Be the first in your subsector to have a real Imperial Naval Warship
named after your city! Imagine the fun and hijinks when 75 sailors and
Marines drop into your daughters favorite club with 3 months of
accumulated pay. Send the name of your city, system and subsector to
Admiral Clarice X. Roman mailto:admiralroman@hotmail.com c/o the 100th
IN Fleet at Glisten, along with 0.02 Crimp.
Only the first twentyfour (24) cities to reply will have ships actually
named after them. The 0.02 Crimp fee is non-refundable. The Glisten
Naval Shipyard is not responsible for lost or delayed X-mail.

The keel for the original City Class Frigate "City of Son Son Solay" was
laid down in 1102 at the Bilstein Yards at Glisten/Glisten. A single
Squad Drop Tube allows insertion of up to 20 individuals, although
doctrine dictates that decoy capsules will be used to fill out a normal
15 man squad. Retrieval gigs are used as interface craft in combat
operations with the Armed launches performing non combat roles. 59 tons
of cargo allow extended patrols without resupply. The Secondary plant
powers the weapons and provides for an agility of two (2), unless the
beam Lasers are double fired, in which case the agility is one (1). The
City Class Frigate is most often seen in a task group of several ships
when the fleet is not massed for battle. Three squadrons serve with the
100th Fleet at Glisten. Ships are named for cities in the Spinward
Marches.

Craft ID:  City Class Frigate, TL 15, 1280.282 Mcr, Quantity discount
1152.254 MCr

 Hull:        1800/4500, Disp=2000, Config=5SL(Sphere), Armour=49G (3),
Loaded=23403.17, Unloaded=21652.58

 Power:    Primary 67/134, Fusion=18,000 Mw, Duration=720hrs/30 days,
Scoops, Purifiers(24 hours whole tank)
                Secondary 40/80, Fusion=10,800 Mw, Duration=72hrs/3
days,
                ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=1280hrs/53 days
 Loco:      90/180, Jump=4, 198/396 Maneuver=4G, Avionics-15 190kph,
Agility=0/2

 Comm:    Radio=System x2, Laser=System x2

 Sensors:  A-EMS (FrOb) x 2, Hi-Dnst-F (1km) x 2 , P-EMS (IntStlr) x 2 ,
Neutrino-E (10 Kw)  x 2
                Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=R  POP=R  PES=S  PEP=R

 Off:         20 Hardpoints, 20 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Bays:     100 ton Missile Bay-15 x1
                        Turrets:  Triple Laser-13     x 6 in 3 battery
                                      Triple Sand-10      x 4 in 4
battery
                        Missile magazine: HE=30 b/r, Nuclear=4 b/r
                         Total=1700 missiles. 1 b/r=50 missiles
                         Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Laser     5    -    -
                                           3
                             Missile   -   A    -
                                               1
                             Sand      4    -    -
                                           4

 Def:        Def DM= +7/9, Optimized Nuclear Damper-15 x1

 Control:  Computer=Model 7/fib w/ Circuit protection x 3,
Panels=Holographic Linked x 1823,  Large holo x 1,
               HUD holo x 30

 Accom:  Officers=14 Crew= 61 ( Bridge=4 Engineering=5 Gunners=26
Flight=14 Troops=14 Command=10 Steward=2)
               Small Staterooms=10, Bunks=70, Squad Drop Tube=1,
Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
               inertial comp, Airlocks x6

 Subcraft:  Retrieval gig x 2 (20 tons, Crew 3, TL 15), Armed Launch x 2
(20 tons, Crew 2, TL 15)

 Other:      Cargo=797.3 Kl/59.1 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=13619
Kl/1009 tons, ObjSize=Large
                One jump requires 6750 KL/500 tons of fuel


Author: Alan Spik

Canon notices: The Squad Drop tube is non canon.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
A man needs a mistress if only to break the monogamy
                                     -Unknown



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:07:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:07:36 +0100
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> A suggestion for a future reprint of GT: First In would be to include two
> sets of modifiers for step 15: One that produces Traveller-like results,
> and one that seems more in line with current science. To keep consistency
> with the rest of the design sequence, the more realistic set would
> probably be the default, while the Traveller-like set could be introduced
> in a sidebar.

This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might be.
Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in the
game universe are - IMO - dubious.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:14:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:14:56 GMT
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
Message-ID: <E16s3WK-0001Qf-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

I would like to see the document and give any comments if you please.

Beth
> Just finished going through what will be a rather long=20
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units=20
> in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may=20
> differ.
>=20
> But..  I need more input.  I've just moved a current day=20
> document a fair number of years into the future (out to TL10,=20
> so far), and I would like to take it a bit further, say TL12.
>=20
> I am interested in anyone's input concerning what might be=20
> standard operating procedure (instructions to individual=20
> soldiers, teams, and platoons).  Some of the detail I have is=20
> down to the items to carry.
>=20
> I am especially interested in what might be SOP in regards to=20
> weapons, employment of specific weapons (such as, "always use=20
> the plasma gun to break contact").
>=20
> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing=20
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages=20
> so far.
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:28:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:28:16 GMT
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
Message-ID: <E16s3jE-0001h7-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

Any chance of seeing these?

Beth

> I'd be interested to see this...
>=20
> In days past I used to write such manuals for a live-role-playing game=20
> based on 25th century space marines. These included a medical manual, EOD=
=20
> procedures and even the Uniform Code of Military Justice (a guaranteed=20
> cure for insommnia!).
>=20
> Hugs and kisses,
>=20
> Mexal,
>=20
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:49:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 07:49:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Real Life Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <20020401131058.13191.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020330213337.009e8010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401074834.009ecec0@mindspring.com>

At 05:10 AM 4/1/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Did somebody watch Jaws when they were not quite old
>enough?  That would probably do it. :)

No, I saw Jaws and went to the beach the next day.  In Santa Cruz, which is 
one of the biggest areas for Great Whites in the world.  I think sharks are 
tres cool.  I don't know what triggered this, it just *happened.*


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:12:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 08:12:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] re: Real Life Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401074834.009ecec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020401161227.27322.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

Well, after I saw Jaws, the deep end of a cloudy
swimming pool was almost too much.  :)

I can remember going to the beach with my parents as a
boy.  We would rent a catamaran.  On the Mississippi
coast they put posts in where the water gets over 4-5
feet deep at high tide.  I would panic and cry when my
parents wanted to go "past the posts" on the cat. 
Now, mind you, the deepest part of this chanel (in the
area we were) is about 13-15 feet at high tide.  And
the sharks are rarely if ever found between the beach
and the islands.

I think I am OK with the water now, but occasionally I
will still have a bit of anxiety.

ObTrav: I can imagine there are some who have panic
attacks on their first trip into space and even more
with their first trip into Jump.  Put one of these
NPC's on the Char's ship and a few minutes from the
Jump point he freaks out.  He will pay for the return,
but the other passengers don't want to waste the time.


Paul
--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 05:10 AM 4/1/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >Did somebody watch Jaws when they were not quite
> old
> >enough?  That would probably do it. :)
> 
> No, I saw Jaws and went to the beach the next day. 
> In Santa Cruz, which is 
> one of the biggest areas for Great Whites in the
> world.  I think sharks are 
> tres cool.  I don't know what triggered this, it
> just *happened.*


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:23:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:23:17 -0500
Subject: [TML] I must be a gearhead...
Message-ID: <200204011623.DDB00400@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was reading the FAS site, and they have this diatribe 
against low-yield earth penetrating nukes.  They say there's 
no way to build a weapon that would penetrate that deeply and 
still contain the burst.  Well, they put a link to the 
equations on the page, so I looked up the lowest yield of 
Davy Crockett, and the penetration of the GBU-28 (concrete 20 
feet, earth 100 feet), and it looks like I only need 60 feet 
of penetration.

So, if I wanted to kill a bunker, just put the bomb into the 
ground just short of the bunker and he's bunkmates with about 
4 kilotons of nuclear explosion.  A little venting from the 
entry path, but the retarc holds the rest in.

Sounds like a good missile for Traveller, eh?

Well, the person I'm arguing with at FAS says it isn't a very 
useful weapon.  Which brings me to another question, if 
you're opposed to nuclear weapons, why use a technical 
argument?  It would be better to stick to a moral/ethical 
objection, because if you give an engineer/gearhead enough 
money and time, virtually anything can be made to work.

Especially nuclear weapons and earth penetrators.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:46:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:46:56 +0100
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
References: <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>

> Actually, the main reason I dislike the results is that they don't give
> normal science-fiction settings. In a universe where the ideal habitat for
> most sentinent races is an icy rockball, various classic SF stereotypes
> don't fit in. In fact, in Traveller, most races are evolved under Eartlike
> conditions, so the other numbers are also strange in that regard.

I don't think that the presence of complex lifeforms in the oceans of an
Iceplanet, 10km+ under the surface, is likely to noticeably going to affect
the Traveller universe. It's not as if you are going to actually meet any of
them on a day to day basis.

Of course all the Major races evolved on Earthlike worlds... Its had to
develop a spacefaring civilisation then there is a kilometres thick ice
sheet between you and the stars (not that you'd even know they existed...)

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:51:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:51:51 -0500
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
Message-ID: <200204011651.DDB04154@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I like to have robots, but there's a certain tedium to Book 
8.  So far, I've resorted to just "saying" that a robot is a 
certain way.  I don't really like the Star Wars robots, but 
there is a certain edge to the robots as presented in AI 
(where they are "nearly" like us, but still imperfect).

How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:56:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:56:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] does that make me an apostate?
Message-ID: <200204011656.DDB04760@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

As I've gotten older, I've just gotten to doing some 
equipment by "it's about this long, about this heavy, etc.."

I've done the same thing with NPCs.

Sometimes FFS drives me nuts. 

I seem to be able to write about some things better if I just 
say things are "just so".

After all, can anyone out there take any of the robot design 
sequences and come up with Gigolo Joe?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:15:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:15:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017681340.6838.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
> 
> Actually, if you are using a fusion reactor that involves magnetically
> confined plasma, 8000 K is a quite *low* temp for the "exhaust" end of
> the cycle. <g>.

The problem is waste heat from on-board systems, not direct inefficiencies of
power production.  For example, life support produces heat equal to its power
consumption, at a normal temperature of around 300K.

Of course, the big power consumption of a ship is for drives and weapons, both
of which will have unknown (but lower) heat output.  Biggest problem is
weapons, which have somewhat canon efficiencies, that are rather low.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:29:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:29:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017682194.5758.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> I have the feeling that an Imperial ability to commandeer 
> your ship is a factor here.  Currently, the penalty for 
> failing to obey orders when boarded has a variety of 
> punishments, ranging from large fines, to loss of your 
> license, loss of your ship (which may belong to your 
> employer, not you), and probable jail time.  Even if they 
> don't find anything else wrong.

Huh?  How is this relevant?
> 
> There are probably locks of some sort.  But imagine if the 
> crew was disabled by a malfunctioning life support system, 
> and headed on a hazardous course.  Under your system, no 
> rescue crew would be able to board normally, and if they did, 
> they couldn't fly the ship.

First of all, locks designed to be used in port are presumably already disabled
after you've taken off.  Secondly, most rescue/patrol craft will be able to
deal with a ship with impaired drives anyway, just push it into a more sensible
orbit.
> 
> I would bet that some locking system exists.  But probably 
> not one that would then become more defensive if the locks 
> were bypassed.

It depends on where you plan on landing.  Free traders who land on insecure
worlds probably have pretty extensive security, bulk cargo carriers who never
leave the mains probably have rather limited security.

> The locks are probably designed to defeat the 
> majority of criminals, not those with sophisticated equipment 
> (like the Imperial Navy).  It's probably coded into the 
> ship's software by law -- even if they don't have the 
> password or keys to get in, the Navy can override your ship's 
> computer and seize control using simple, but sophisticated 
> equipment when they board.

Doubtful.  The IN can seize control via the simple, but sophisticated equipment
known as guns.
> 
> There might even be an interface that works through your 
> transponder's software.

Even less likely.  Information like that can be stolen, and if so, is vastly
more useful to terrorists and criminals than it could ever be to the Navy. 
Again, the Navy can seize control through the exotic technique of 'superior
firepower'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:33:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 12:33:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>

MJD said:
>This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
>First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might be.
>Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in the
>game universe are - IMO - dubious.

I take a much less dour outlook than MJD.  I haven't read it, but so many 
people keep telling me how great 'First In' is that I think it was 
absolutely a worthwhile book and intend to either buy a reprint/second 
edition or get the original from Traveller Trader at Downport.com.  Sounds 
like the future edition will be updated with Mr. Rydholm's suggestions.

Traveller books have been in need of various "fixing" since at least the 
first edition of Book 5 - High Guard.  If GDW had decided not to fix that 
with a second edition, we'd be worse off.  I think that if there's any 
lesson to be learned from these instances, it's that you should always try 
to do more playtesting, analysis, debugging, copy editing, and editing 
before releasing a product.  Imperium Games being the poster child for that 
need.

Thanks Jen, for doing a very useful and interesting exercise with the 
distribution of 'First In' world gen results.  That sound you weren't 
hearing was hard drives saving the info you posted.  And thanks to the 
author of 'First In' for seeking constructive criticism and incorporating 
it into your work.  It's bemusing that your response to the criticism was 
so mature and professional, when so many of the most famous game authors of 
other games would have been defensive and even combative if placed in your 
shoes.  I know they would, because I've seen them placed in your 
shoes.  From its start, Traveller seems to involve a better class of 
writers.  (We'll leave certain obvious exceptions out of that statement.  :-)

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:37:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:37:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] I just found the psionics institute
Message-ID: <200204011737.DDD02290@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.remoteviewing.com/

The company is named Psi-Tech.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:41:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 12:41:33 EST
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>

> This is what happens when people decide to "fix" 
> Traveller. First In does not produce Traveller 
> worlds - however realistic it might be. Design 
> systems that do not allow you to create what already 
> exists in the game universe are - IMO - dubious.

It may surprise you to learn that I entirely agree
with you.

First In had two main design goals: realism and support
for Classic Traveller world generation.

Unfortunately, the further I went the more I discovered
that the two were completely incompatible. CT worldgen
(including the extended system in Book 6) simply breaks
the laws of physics. Repeatedly. In ways that are very
hard to gloss over.

My response was to make "realistic" the default setting,
and include a number of notes demonstrating how to go
about something more Classic in style if that was to
your taste. In retrospect that was probably the wrong
strategy. At the time I wasn't sure what the biggest
part of the audience would be - long-time Traveller
players or newcomers. Clearly, I guessed wrong.

If First In goes to a second edition, I think the world
design sequence will default to something much more
like Book 6 worldgen, with "realism notes" allowing the
referee to flesh things out or substitute more realistic
steps to taste. (About the only thing that I would "fix"
in the default sequence would be the formula for world
surface temperature in Book 6, which is not only wrong,
but wrong in such a way that it actually makes Book 6
much harder to use.)

I suspect that would make First In considerably easier
for long-time Traveller fans to use in their established
Traveller universes - while still allowing folks who
roll their own to be as realistic as they choose.

---
Jon F. Zeigler
JFZeigler@aol.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:45:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:45:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020316125548.A20449@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Mar 16, 2002 12:55:48 PM
Message-ID: <200204011745.g31Hji001663@localhost.uia.net>

As I've mentioned before, I've been toying w/ the idea of
inertial suppression as a means of fast accelleration in an
sf-rpg I'm *slowly* putting together w/ the help of some
friends. However, there's some conflict over how to achieve
this (I can email two articles which hint at the scientific
premise to anyone who's interested). There's also the problem
of unintended consequences. Since inertial suppression also
exists in Traveller (so that ships can accellerate at 6G
w/o squashing their crews), it might be a good idea to
consider these consequences for a bit.

I wrote in an earlier post that onboard a ship where inertia
was being supressed:
> one crewmember shoving another would be like a
> feather shoving a feather. They would feel exactly the same thing
> and would react with their environment in exactly the same way,
> because apparent mass in reduced for the entire environment,
> including both of them.

Tim countered:
> So long as the forces are also reduced, no problem.  e.g. Suppose a
> person has their mass reduced by a factor of 1000.  Of course, such
> force ultimately comes from chemical energies.  But then you have to
> worry about activation energies of internal chemical processes
> necessary to life.  OK, so handwave them to near-zero as well.  So all
> chemical bonds must be 1000 times weaker to match the mass reduction.
> Furthermore, the charge on the electron and proton must be shifted
> downward by the same factor of 1000, or atoms are no longer stable at
> their normal size.  Likewise the strength of the strong nuclear force
> must be downshifted.
> 
> So, what does this mean for sunlight impinging upon the spacecraft?
> Each visible photon from the sun now vastly exceeds the binding energy
> of atoms in the hull, and behaves very much like an intense x-ray
> source capable of vaporizing any material.
> 
> Now, the energies of photons emitted *inside* the ship are 1000 times
> lower due to lower atomic transition energies, and hence have
> wavelengths 1000 times longer.  This plays absolute hell with all
> sorts of physical processes, so you'd better lower Planck's constant
> by a factor of 1000 while you're at it to fix this up.

Basically, if I read him right, what he appears to be saying is that
if you lower inertia in a given space by 99%, people in that area will
have much more strength than they're used to having, because the
chemical reactions going on in their bodies which generate energy
will still be generating as much energy, but for a much smaller
apparent mass, meaning that they'll be able to perform extrodinary
feats (and quite possibly hurt themselves), and that the only way
around this is to downscale everything else, which generates a
very strange and inconsistent reality.

What do other people think about this argument?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:45:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:45:14 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <00d001c1d9a5$0cff6560$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> I take a much less dour outlook than MJD.

I didn't mean to sound *that* negative! It's just that part of the canon
problem with Traveller is the endless series of canon-fixes that keep
appearing, giving the canonistas something to cannonade one another about.
Each fix seems to create more problems than it solves!

>
> Traveller books have been in need of various "fixing" since at least the
> first edition of Book 5 - High Guard.  If GDW had decided not to fix that
> with a second edition, we'd be worse off.  I think that if there's any
> lesson to be learned from these instances, it's that you should always try
> to do more playtesting, analysis, debugging, copy editing, and editing
> before releasing a product.  Imperium Games being the poster child for
that
> need.

Oh yes! Can't argue there. Hence the T20 delay...

>
> Thanks Jen, for doing a very useful and interesting exercise with the
> distribution of 'First In' world gen results.  That sound you weren't
> hearing was hard drives saving the info you posted.  And thanks to the
> author of 'First In' for seeking constructive criticism and incorporating
> it into your work.  It's bemusing that your response to the criticism was
> so mature and professional, when so many of the most famous game authors
of
> other games would have been defensive and even combative if placed in your
> shoes.  I know they would, because I've seen them placed in your
> shoes.  From its start, Traveller seems to involve a better class of
> writers.  (We'll leave certain obvious exceptions out of that statement.
:-)
>

Like whom?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:49:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:49:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
Message-ID: <200204011749.DDD03964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
effects when you modify Planck's constant.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:51:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:51:18 +0100
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00e301c1d9a5$e66a4540$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>>
> If First In goes to a second edition, I think the world
> design sequence will default to something much more
> like Book 6 worldgen, with "realism notes" allowing the
> referee to flesh things out or substitute more realistic
> steps to taste. (About the only thing that I would "fix"
> in the default sequence would be the formula for world
> surface temperature in Book 6, which is not only wrong,
> but wrong in such a way that it actually makes Book 6
> much harder to use.)
>
> I suspect that would make First In considerably easier
> for long-time Traveller fans to use in their established
> Traveller universes - while still allowing folks who
> roll their own to be as realistic as they choose.

Can't argue with any of this. I want realism in worldgeneration (I'm still
an engineer by mindset) but I also want compatibility with existing
unrealism. Is that unreasonable or what?? Call me hard to please if you
will... But anyway, I wouldn't worry about what I said too much. I like
First In overall...
MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:19:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 10:19:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] I just found the psionics institute
References: <200204011737.DDD02290@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8A4BE.6B18B1F0@attbi.com>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> http://www.remoteviewing.com/
> 
> The company is named Psi-Tech.

"Found?", Major Ed Dames And Psi Tech are major guests on the 
Art Bell Show. "Sides Psi Tech claims "anyone can do remote
viewing", and as we know the Psi roll is for PCs only....

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:23:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:23:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017685386.1051.ajackson@ping>

JFZeigler@aol.com writes:

> First In had two main design goals: realism and support
> for Classic Traveller world generation.
> 
> Unfortunately, the further I went the more I discovered
> that the two were completely incompatible. CT worldgen
> (including the extended system in Book 6) simply breaks
> the laws of physics. Repeatedly. In ways that are very
> hard to gloss over.

With the exception of small worlds with breathable atmospheres, what's so bad
about CT worlds?  All you need to do to produce traveller-like worlds is have a
system that produces around a hundred worlds per hex, and then picks the
lifelike one ;)

I actually put together something more or less like this, a while back; I
figured out based on the general world generator the probable distribution of
certain characteristics for earthlike worlds, and thus you can simply directly
roll up the 1% of worlds that are interesting.  You'd need to add rules for
generating any non-earthlike worlds (say, 50% chance of an earthlike world, 50%
chance for a non-earthlike middle-zone terrestrial world), but that's not too
hard.

http://maps.grandsurvey.com/hero/worlds.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:42:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:42:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] Comm check
Message-ID: <20020401.104247.-84283.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:10:39 -0600 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
> ping ping ping ping ping
> 
> Here we go again.
> 
> ISS Agena at the outer beacon.

Welcome Agena, good to see you again.
This is the IS Virgin Isle (5,000 dton luxury resort vessel), resounding
with two pings

<ping, ping>

Agena, perhaps this visit you'll  swing by for a visit.
I'm 90 degrees starboard, parked just outside marker two, range 2,000 kl.

Don't forget, our luxurious suites, casino, Jacuzzi's, health club,
exotic clubs, glorious dining, and we mustn't forget Andrea's Place. All
here waiting for you the weary traveller.


.--.   ...       .----   .----   -....   ---...   ----.       ..      
.--   ..   .-..   .-..       .--   .-   .-..   -.-       -...   .   ..-. 
 ---   .-.   .       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..       ..  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   .-   -.   -..       ---   ..-.       -
  ....   .       .-..   ..   ...-   ..   -.   --.   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:45:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:45:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV16h3lrGS1DknvCes0001cd0f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>

Bill Scheets aka Tex asks how hard is it to steal a grounded or docked 
starship IYTU.

My results vary.  In my first Traveller game, the entire small group 
decided they needed to boost planet and do it right away.  Confident that 
Laning's RPG would be just as fast and loose as everyone else's in our 
gaming club, they hopped the starport fencing and began strolling toward 
their nearby scout ship that was under guard while they were being 
investigated for certain previous actions.

Only to be confronted by a second and a third fence.  Sheer luck dictated 
that no guards were being attentive to their security cams and no patrols 
happened by.  But you'd think the sight of three fences, razor wire, and 
guard towers would tip them off that this was going to be a nontrivial 
task.  Aha! they say, only some fences and a guard tower, This will be 
easy.  Laning groans and looks at them, shaking his head.  Misreading these 
signs from the referee, they are even further emboldened.

At the airlock to the scout, I decide the best thing is to have the guard 
doing sentry duty aboard the ship should come out to talk to them, and give 
them a chance to talk their out of this.  Or at least talk their into 
reducing into a minor misdemeanor.  As soon as the door begins opening they 
all shoot him.

This was an early session of my game, and I really wanted to attract the 
players to return for more sessions in the future by making it fun for 
them.  Big, big mistake.  I figured the best thing was just let them take 
off, escape orbit, jump out, and assume the life of fugitives.  Well, if 
you let your players bully you once, they're only going to run even more 
amok in the future.  That game did not last long.  In other Traveller 
gaming, my universe has included all the ultratechnological, ultraparanoid, 
doublecheck and doublesafeguards that owners and insurers could think of 
against starships being damaged or stolen.  Just as you'd expect for 
something worth hundreds of millions of credits.

If that same party tried that same stunt again, I'd have the guards at the 
fence shoot them with tranq and they'd wake up in jail.

The example I gave was for a starship they already "owned" (technically, 
the retired scout was in the reserves and was responsible for the ship as 
property of the Imperial Scout Service).  There would be voice and keyboard 
commands at the airlock exterior, interior, engineering, and bridge 
hatchways.  Voiceprint and thumbprint verification required.  Piloting and 
engineering controls would have had the same requirements again.  An 
already-authorized and verified person on the interior could override the 
authorization process at the airlock so that routine embarkation and 
disembarkation of passengers and crew would not be cumbersome.  If set the 
shipboard security system is set to higher states of alert, then more than 
one person is required to get past authorization checkpoints, and/or more 
secret security codes must be used.  A ship belonging to the ISS in that 
situation would have been handled by the local legal authorities requesting 
the ISS help them.  The ISS would have had the pilot's normal security 
programs temporarily suspended and inaccessible, and replaced them with 
their own.  They have tools and overrides of their own for just this sort 
of situation.

If the guard who was aboard the ship had wanted to talk to the PCs when 
they reached his airlock, he would have just activated an intercom and 
spoken to them from the bridge, while waiting for the starport's SWAT team 
to arrive.  If the PCs had brought weapons or explosives capable of 
breaching the hull of the ship and gaining access, there would be automatic 
security programs would have taken over to incapacitate the 
boarders.  Including, lighting, temperature controls, random and extreme 
variations in the artificial gravity grid (from weightless state to 
negative one gee to positive one gee then back to negative one gee, etc.), 
locking down all interior and exterior hatches, and even evacuating air 
from different spaces.  Each individual grav plate is separately 
controlled, and there are preprogrammed routines for turning off all grav 
plates in a corridor except one which is turned to maximum, and sequencing 
which plate is turned to maximum so as to pull someone in the corridor to 
one end or the other of it.  With sufficiently high-powered grav plates, 
someone can be thrown into an airlock, for instance.

Insurance companies and mortgage companies insist upon certain security 
precautions for ships, and these must be thoroughly inspected during annual 
maintenance.  Most security systems can be controlled by anyone who knows a 
username and password, and their are heirarchical levels of security.  For 
instance, passengers can set a few security options for their own cabins, 
crew can set security options on low berths, etc. and the captain can 
override those settings and even lock out those individual users, and the 
owner can override the captain.  I rely on simple password and username 
because they are fast and only require either spoken or typed input from 
personnel.  Personnel who might be depending for their lives on getting 
fast access to security and controlling it.  There are also many closed 
circuit, neural activitiy sensors, and other sensors used to determine 
whether hatches are open or shut, bulkheads or hull is breached, and so 
on.  Security console(s) located on the bridge.

If the 'Alien' from the movie boarded my ship, I'd be able to pull all the 
crew to the bridge or main engineering control station, open the rest of 
the ship to vacuum, and read various sensors to know the precise location 
of the alien.  Hiding in ductwork in the ceiling would not make a 
significant difference.  If unable to throw the alien into open space by 
playing games with accelerating/decelerating the ship, gravity controls and 
air pressure, then a complete set of vacc suits for crew is kept in the 
ship's locker, accessible only from the bridge, as are weapons.  Subsequent 
events to be determined by the referee.  :->

A ship with maneuver-1 would typically only have internal artificial 
gravity of one gee.  This would be sufficient to deal with most unwanted 
boarders, even if only the ship's automated security routines are triggered 
and there is no crew aboard.  But it wouldn't be much deterrent to the 
'Alien'.  Ships with maneuver-6 would have internal gravity to match, and 
be able to hurl an unwanted boarder around from positive six gees to 
negative six gees.

If thieves manage to take control of the ship enough to lift off from 
planet, they'll still have to deal with starport and orbital traffic 
control.  This will include knowing what identifying call sign they are 
assigned, filing a flight plan, and getting clearances.  A docked ship will 
also have its security system linked to the starport, and if the security 
is triggered at any point, the starport security will immediately be 
alerted.  The thief will still have to somehow evade starport, COACC, and 
Imperial facilities, in most systems.  Think satellites, missiles, deep 
meson guns, and SDBs.

Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no 
scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the 
fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world 
in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL 13 
COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much less 
likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:58:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:58:21 EST
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <12d.f1855a6.29da07cd@aol.com>

I've been following the debate over the "First In" design sequence with 
interest. Part of the "problem" comes, I suspect, from an assumption that any 
world can develop a complex ecosystem.

This is unlikely since the complexity of the ecosystem is likely to be 
related to the available food sources at the bottom of the food chain. These 
will be severely limited on an Ice ball, even an old one. Hence the easy way 
round the problem is to cap the positive modifiers available for non-ocean 
worlds. I'd suggest +6 is a suitable number, altough I'm not an expert on 
First In so other numbres might be more suitable. 

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:13:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:13:40 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <F198zoDtLvggeHVTugl000061ac@hotmail.com>

>Can't argue with any of this. I want realism in worldgeneration (I'm >still 
>an engineer by mindset) but I also want compatibility with >existing 
>unrealism. Is that unreasonable or what??

Not really. In programing it's called being bug compatible...

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Johnny)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:14:52 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #365
References: <20020331161119.260AC279E7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c1d9b9$e469ca40$6501a8c0@yucca.net>

On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 23:32:40 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> Just finished going through what will be a rather long 
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units 
> in Traveller.  
> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing 
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages 
> so far.

I'm a lurker, but I'd be willing to reveiw it too. gamersvault@yucca.net 

- Johnny


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:29:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:29:32 -0700
Subject: [TML] GRUPS Traveller Reviews
References: <3CA85AA1.175A2553@berka.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8C32C.7020903@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

P-O Bergstedt wrote:
> Read some reviews of some new
> GRUPS Traveller products at URL:
> http://zho.berka.com/review.html

Aren't all grups reviews supposed to start 'Bonk bonk onna head!' ?? ;-)

> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:56:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:56:47 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <00d001c1d9a5$0cff6560$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>

MJD quotes and then asks:
> >From its start, Traveller seems to involve a better class of
> > writers.  (We'll leave certain obvious exceptions out of that statement.
>:-)
> >
>
>Like whom?

I mostly had the aforementioned Imperium Games in mind.  :-<

Thanks for setting me straight on your "level of dourness".  And I really 
loved your little exposition about "canonistas" and "canonades".  Keep up 
the good writing.  :->

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:57:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:57:58 -0700
Subject: [TML] room clearing
References: <200203312207.DBP01462@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8C9D6.9000605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> The only problem I have with the new room clearing technique 
> is that if people are expecting you, then all they need is a 
> long burst fire (belt fed) to keep you out of the room.
> 
> The new technique involves a team of 4 flowing into the room 
> and moving left or right as they flow in and occupy corners 
> of the room by flowing along the walls.
> 
> Might make an interesting scenario to game out using ACQ.
> 
> If the people flowing into the room have more actions per 
> combat round than the people occupying the room, it might 
> work. 
> 
> The use of grenades is now an exception in room clearing.  I 
> do remember throwing a simulator into a closet in MOUT 
> training, and being declared a casualty.  Maybe they have 
> something there.

I wonder how this compares, to, say, standard SWAT protocol for the 
same. They make extensive use of flashbangs (Presumably the 'stun 
grenade' mentioned in the link.

Presumably they are less likely to encounter return fire than soldiers 
clearing a room in a battle, but there's also the rather tricky (and 
now, all too common) mingling of non-combatants and combatants in 
today's battles.

Mis-calculate where enemy fire is coming from in a large building, and 
you could burst into the room next door, filled with refugees instead of 
bad guys.

All I can say is I DON'T want to be the poor sucker taking that #1 position.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:07:05 -0700
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <3CA8CBF9.3080002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Robert Houghton wrote:

> Actully I once saw a Catalina Flying Boat someone had refitted as a 
> mobile home winnebago style...thought this was as close to perfect as 
> you could get...if you could afford it...prolly only a little bit more 
> expensive as living on a boat and getting away for the weekend would be 
> a lot easier.

One reason that if I were to get filthy rich enough to afford it, I 
would get my own airplane: A C-130 outfitted as a flying RV.

They can land just about anywhere, even on unimproved runways, have a 
long range, parts are readily available, they're damn near 
indestructible, and there's a LOT of room.

I'm picturing two decks: a living deck and a garage deck, where you park 
your car/boat/atv's, hell you could carry along an ultralight asa 
'dingy' ;-)...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:22:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:22:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012122.DDL00281@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
>Subject: Re: [TML] room clearing  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>All I can say is I DON'T want to be the poor sucker taking 
that #1 position.
>

The more I think about it, the more I think it relies on 
having four people who are all well-practiced.  If you can 
all pour through the door before anyone inside can really 
react, it might work.  

Door charge set by #4 man blows door 
#1 man moves in, keeping back to the wall, moving to far 
right corner
#2 man buttonhooks to left near corner
#3 man right to right near corner
#4 straight left to far corner

Short bursts at any targets. Enter room with rifle shouldered.

The rapid pace is what is supposed to work here. Might be 
different in zero-g.

If you're slow, however, or unfamiliar, or get mixed up, 
you're going to get shredded.  I would bet that even an 
experienced team should practice this drill if they hope to 
pull it off.  For boarding, I would bet that the team might 
even do a drill on a stateroom or airlock on their own ship 
prior to boarding your ship.  Plus, they would call up 
deckplans and study them.

The other thing they would have going for them if they don't 
throw grenades (which are indiscriminate) is that they can 
enter multiple ingress points on the ship, with a lower rate 
of fratricide.  They can use the portable hull breaching/pier 
demolition charge to get into the ship.  Let's say two four 
man teams at each entry point, three entry points on a 400-
ton ship.  That's 24 men pouring into the ship without going 
through airlocks.

Looks like throwing grenades is for bunkers and for breaking 
contact.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:24:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:24:26 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <002401c1d9c3$ac6b2e40$6e9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >Like whom?
>
> I mostly had the aforementioned Imperium Games in mind.  :-<

Aha. My own pet hate is Imperium Games' editorial system, which actually
insterted spelling mistakes into my work! Spellchecker allowed to run
without supervision, I guess. Some of the writing was good. And some of it
set off the depressurisation alarms, it sucked so bad.

>
> Thanks for setting me straight on your "level of dourness".  And I really
> loved your little exposition about "canonistas" and "canonades".  Keep up
> the good writing.  :->
>

We aim to please... or is that shoot to kill?

Guess I'm just on a bit of a hair-trigger about all the people wanting me/us
to "fix" this or that about the Traveller universe, TNE, or GURPS Trav. Fix
it enough times and it'll be something completely different to what you
started with. Like my computer...

Regards

MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:40:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:40 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <memo.163716@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3CA8C9D6.9000605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Greetings dear hearts.

It's about 10 years since I was taught this... no, more, it was 1987...

The British Army method is: -

2-man entry team with 'mousehole' charge, blows a hole in outside wall of 
building (we don't come in the front door).

Someone chucks a grenade in, closely followed by a 2nd 2-man team 
who charge in through the hole, shooting.

Inside, working in two 2-man teams, you alternate between doing the 
grenade chucking and the charging in.

Of course, this method is only used if you don't care about the survival 
of anyone inside, or indeed much of the house itself!

The alternate method used for hostage rescue makes use of flash-bangs 
rather than frags, and shooting only occurs when a target has been 
positively identified.

Everybody, at least if you're infantry, learns the first, explosive 
method. The other one takes a lot of practice to get right...

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:44:04 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <3CA8CBF9.3080002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com>
 <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>

Living on an airplane would not be fun.  All that loud buzzing.  And the 
bad air.  Yuck.

My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.

I like to throw in people living out the Traveller version of this dream 
wandering from planet to planet, living on their converted merchant.  The 
more oft-encountered version of people living an imitation of this dream is 
the crew of a merchant that is family, or like a family together.  They 
still need to hustle for the credits to pay off the bank, keep the ship 
fuelled and maintained, etc.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:48:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:48:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

(Megan Robertson)  says
>Subject: Re: [TML] room clearing  
>
>The British Army method is: -
>
>2-man entry team with 'mousehole' charge, blows a hole in 
>outside wall of building (we don't come in the front door).
>
>Someone chucks a grenade in, closely followed by a 2nd 2-man 
>team who charge in through the hole, shooting.
>
>Inside, working in two 2-man teams, you alternate between 
>doing the grenade chucking and the charging in.
>

Yes, that's very similar to what was SOP just prior to the 
last technique.  What you describe above is what is known as 
Battle Drill #6.

Evidently there are problems with frags, and with two men 
trying to go in simultaneously.  There was a determination 
that two men are too few to handle things in a room if even 
one person is left alive after the grenade.  Three is now the 
minimum, and four is considered ideal.

And no frags!
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:52:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:52:37 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <000001c1d9c7$899aafe0$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>

Warren Buffett didn't seem to mind...

Matthew W. Helton


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of laning
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 15:44
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)

Living on an airplane would not be fun.  All that loud buzzing.  And the

bad air.  Yuck.

My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.

I like to throw in people living out the Traveller version of this dream

wandering from planet to planet, living on their converted merchant.
The 
more oft-encountered version of people living an imitation of this dream
is 
the crew of a merchant that is family, or like a family together.  They 
still need to hustle for the credits to pay off the bank, keep the ship 
fuelled and maintained, etc.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:52:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:52:59 +1000
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020401084436.C5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020402075259.B9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, if you are using a fusion reactor that involves
> magnetically confined plasma, 8000 K is a quite *low* temp for the
> "exhaust" end of the cycle. <g>

Yeah -- I wasn't actually counting the reactor as a direct source of
waste heat, since it has to be at least 99.99% efficient to provide
sufficiently high-quality power for pumping the *rest* of the waste
heat.

The problem comes with all the other ship's systems, the ones that
*use* the power provided by the reactor.  Obviously in stealth mode
you aren't thrusting or using weapons, but there's still environmental
support, sensors, control systems, LHyd cryo maintenance, and no doubt
hundreds of little things.  All of these would produce very low-grade
heat; probably at or near 300K.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:55:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:55:59 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <001f01c1d9c8$14f2af20$629193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> 
> My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
> twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.
> 
>

I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air force.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:08:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:08:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012122.DDL00281@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164502.02811320@pop.wizard.net>

Grenades are still for room clearing.  You just have to be judicious about 
using up your entire supply before you use up rooms that need to be cleared.

You also, as the link pointed out, have to be careful about not using 
powerful grenades in structures that will collapse.

And, of course you have to be careful to not clear a room that happens to 
include your own guys, or be in a room being cleared by your own guys.

No matter what specific drill you work out, speed and shock are still what 
you need to concentrate on using.  And judgment, heh.  The company 
commander's recommended room clearing drill seems effective regardless of 
its other attributes for three reasons.

(1) He gets a lot of people through the door in an extremely short 
time.  (Speed)
(2) He has a lot of people in the room all at once, each with automatic 
weapon as well as other fighting ability.  (Shock)
(3) The room clearing team has done a lot of practice and rehearsal.  (That 
makes any system work better.)

One other thing I'd like to note.  His drill assumes that you have the 
hallway(s) completely secured already.  As I recall, in European operations 
in WW2, things were often moving too quickly to have that luxury.  Or there 
weren't enough troops for it.

It all depends on the nature of the enemy and the nature of the 
terrain.  If the enemy is Nazi soldiers and the terrain is abandoned 
buildings constructed with strong materials and thick walls, then the "old 
battle drill" might work better.  If the enemy is militia and possibly has 
civilians nearby and the terrain is flimsily constructed buildings that 
sometimes have trouble with high winds, then his new battle drill might be 
better.

If I'm stuck defending a building that is being cleared by an enemy that 
has the superiority of force that the company commander seems to be 
implicitly assuming, then I would choose to withdraw from the building and 
pick a fight at a better time and place.  So yeah, his battle drill will 
succeed quite nicely at securing every room in the building.

If I'm clearing rooms with TL 12+ troops, then I think I'd rely a lot on 
neural activity sensors and advanced night vision that can see IR images 
through walls, depending on wall thickness.  My doctrine would be to have 
some assault troops with lots of personal armor protection do the room by 
room part, after less heavily armored troops secure the perimeter of the 
building or at least part of the perimeter.  I'd also try to use tranq gas 
or riot gas.  IIRC, US troops in Viet Nam found that CS was very handy for 
clearing rooms without increasing the number of civilian casualties even 
higher than it was already climbing.  If there was very little chance of 
civilians in the building, then I'd go with stun or frag grenades, 
depending on the structure.  Or maybe just lob some white phosphorous RAM 
grenades in from the street and shoot anyone who flees the burning building 
as it collapses.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:05:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:05:32 +1000
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20401.025353.0o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020401083839.B5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20401.025353.0o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> The problem is that if you were aiming for a point "ahead" of the
> planet, and came out of jump late, your vector will be *away* from the
> planet because you are now "behind" it. 

Oh, no!  Here we go with the discussion about which frame of reference
the jump emergence point follows, and the dynamics of moving 100D
limits :(

IMTU, jump emergence point is stationary with respect to the ship's
vector on jump entry.  Hence if the ship arrives late with an
inward-bound velocity vector, it will precipitate out on the planet's
100D limit.  This is even standard practice IMTU.


As far as I can see, there are three main contenders for how the jump
exit point moves:

1) Stationary with respect to the ship's entry vector.  This is the
one I use.  (However, it is not stationary in the relativistic sense,
just in a Galilean sense based on jumpspace)

2) Stationary wrt an absolute "jumpspace" frame of reference.  In
general, this will be moving at least a hundred kilometres per second
relative to most stars, and hence plotting an exit position is only
possible along a track a few million kilometres long due to time
variation in jump.  This seems to be the one you are assuming, but
contradicts the canonical accuracy of jump plotting so I discard it.

3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:11:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:11:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20020402075259.B9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017699082.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> The problem comes with all the other ship's systems, the ones that
> *use* the power provided by the reactor.  Obviously in stealth mode
> you aren't thrusting or using weapons, but there's still environmental
> support, sensors, control systems, LHyd cryo maintenance, and no doubt
> hundreds of little things.  All of these would produce very low-grade
> heat; probably at or near 300K.

Of course, rules notwithstanding, there's no real reason to assume that a ship
that's stealthy when idle is also stealthy when accelerating.  I suspect that
secondary systems (everything but active sensors, weapons, and drives) don't
have a routine power consumption of more than around .1 kW/dton, which means a
100 dton ship (for a sphere, 7 meter radius, cross-section 150 m^2 or so)
receives more sunlight than the amount of waste heat it needs to go with (by a
factor of about 20), which is sufficient to let it basically pump all of its
waste heat away in a very narrow angle.

The tricky part here is that you'll need a cryogenically cooled hull...plus
really really optimistic solar converters. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:12:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:12:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020401221258.43908.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com>

--0-1646151845-1017699178=:43005
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


 >> And no frags!  & 4 man teams

What about using stun grenades (flash/bangs?)  Are those useful at all?



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send greetings for Easter,  Passover
--0-1646151845-1017699178=:43005
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<P>&nbsp;&gt;&gt; And no frags!&nbsp; &amp; 4 man teams<BR><BR>What about using stun grenades (flash/bangs?)&nbsp; Are those useful at all?</P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br>
<a href="$rd_url/welcome/?http://greetings.yahoo.com">Yahoo! Greetings</a> - send greetings for <a href="$rd_url/welcome/?http://greetings.yahoo.com/browse/Holidays/Easter/">Easter</a>, <a href="$rd_url/welcome/?http://greetings.yahoo.com/browse/Holidays/Passover/"> Passover
--0-1646151845-1017699178=:43005--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:13:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:13:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> 3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
> planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.

This one has several things to recommend it, in particular the fact that it
cripples some of the simplest methods of relativistic bombardment.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:18:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:18:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip long evaluation about situation, etc.>

And the Army sums all of that up in "always consider METT-T 
when making decisions".  

The scale I'm thinking about is the typical Traveller party.  
They don't have enough bodies to do it right, on the 
average.  So they'll be throwing grenades.  But the soldiers 
who are fighting against a party might just rush in like this.

I'm not sure that you could move that quickly under zero-g 
conditions.

I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run 
on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship 
from stem to stern.  Arguably, orders are going to tell a 
military unit to use the least level of violence necessary to 
take your ship, but if you successfully resisted one boarding 
attempt, and they wanted the ship, they could just give you 
all the "treatment" and board after everyone dies of 
radiation.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:20:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:20:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] does that make me an apostate?
In-Reply-To: <20020401200104.BCEA627A48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sA9y-0003Dx-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

> As I've gotten older, I've just gotten to doing some 
> equipment by "it's about this long, about this heavy, etc.."
> 
> I've done the same thing with NPCs.
> 
> Sometimes FFS drives me nuts. 

Agreed.  Any design system you need a spreadsheet before is too 
complicated for any RPG I play.
 
> I seem to be able to write about some things better if I just 
> say things are "just so".

The only danger to consider is unintended consequences (ie PC 
being able to use a common device as a game-breaker), and 
design sequences don't help much with that.
 
> After all, can anyone out there take any of the robot design 
> sequences and come up with Gigolo Joe?

Book 8 isn't bad.  AB101 (also featured in the various Traveller's 
Digest adventures) isn't all that different from Gigolo Joe.  GJ is 
basically a TL15 pseudo-biological robot with the most advanced 
robot brain possible at that TL.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:21:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:21:48 +1000
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020402082148.D9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> These numbers clearly do not match the OTU, since the most common forms of
> advanced life there are evolved under Earthlike conditions (including all
> of the major races).

True, but a number of the major races actually evolved on *one* world,
and were moved later :)

It seems the Ancients preferred species who live under Earthlike
conditions, for some reason.  That would certainly skew the results.
Remember, the Traveller universe has been subject to at least one
major bout of technological tampering.

The other problem is that even if a sentient race evolved in the dark
depths of a subsurface ocean of an icy world, who would know?  Even if
hundreds of them are discovered, what are their chances of having
meaningful interaction with other races?  I mean, they live buried
under kilometres of ice; not a place many explorers are going to go.

They also probably require thousands of atmospheres of pressure for
survival.  i.e. Passenger fares will be *very* expensive.

That's without the problems of a race evolving sentience under
conditions of very low energy.  They have to live *on* something,
after all.  Even computers need power.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:23:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:23:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012223.DDN00369@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Justin Bunnell asks
>
>What about using stun grenades (flash/bangs?)  Are those 
>useful at all?
>
Flashbangs might be useful depending on the situation.  
People in sealed suits are not going to be affected very 
much.  Probably don't work well in vacuum.

But unsuited people in atmosphere in a confined space like a 
ship's stateroom, ideal.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:25:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:25:51 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
Message-ID: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"MJ Dougherty" says
>
>I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my 
>own air force.
>

Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)

You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles, 
but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up 
with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right 
positions in government for the die hards, it might work.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:30:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:30:45 +1000
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020402083045.E9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Timothy Little writes:
> > 3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
> > planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.

> This one has several things to recommend it, in particular the fact
> that it cripples some of the simplest methods of relativistic
> bombardment.

Actually no, we already know that the *ship* retains its original
velocity through jump.  It is just the motion of the *exit point*
during the time of uncertainty in arrival that I'm talking about.
i.e. You plan to jump to (t,x,y,z) in some coordinate system or other.
You arrive at t+dt, due to uncertainty in jump duration.  What are the
resulting values of x, y, and z?

In fact, option 3 makes relativistic bombardment *much* easier, since
you know the near-c object will always emerge near the planned
position relative to the planet.  Options 1 makes it significantly
harder, but option 2 makes it near-impossible.  Unfortunately, option
2 severely contradicts canon.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:36:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:36:56 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> >I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my
> >own air force.
> >
>
> Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
>
> You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles,
> but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up
> with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right
> positions in government for the die hards, it might work.
>
>

Cool! New Zealand is nice. And it's close to Doug's Penguin Emporium too.

OBTRAV: sell that Free Trader, buy a small land mass, and be your own
fascist dictator.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:37:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:37:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017700663.113.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run 
> on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship 
> from stem to stern.

Not without some means of penetrating the Unobtainium shielding used to make
gas giant refueling survivable.  At TL 17, an antimatter microgrenade would be
handy for area clearing, since the resulting radiation is grossly high
penetration; a microgram of antimatter would produce radiation with cosmic ray
level penetration (half dose at around 6 cm steel) and a dose of around 20,000
rads at 10 meters, despite only having the energy of 4-5 kilos of high
explosive and probably vastly less actual blast because a lot of the energy
escapes the immediate area.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:39:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:39:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

They already have something today that will zoom under your 
car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
even restart).

There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then 
have something like this land at your feet.  You might be 
left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.

Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:42:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:42:57 -0500
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
In-Reply-To: <002401c1d9c3$ac6b2e40$6e9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401170844.027d1130@pop.wizard.net>

MJD said:
>Guess I'm just on a bit of a hair-trigger about all the people wanting me/us
>to "fix" this or that about the Traveller universe, TNE, or GURPS Trav. Fix
>it enough times and it'll be something completely different to what you
>started with. Like my computer...

LOL, mine too.  Yeah, spell checkers that are dumber than human copy 
editors are definitely a pet peeve of mine, also.  And while I applaud the 
very human instinct to tinker with things to make them better, I also 
applaud someone with the judgment to know when to stop.

As far as Trav things that have been improved over time but I'm not so sure 
they should have been, I would like to consider the introduction of the 
task system.  The more time goes by, the more it seems to me that most 
players are most comfortable if they just know what number they have to 
roll higher or lower than, and what the dice modifiers are.  Most people 
don't like to be troubled with Impossible, Difficult, Routine, or other 
arbitrary names.  They just want to know the number.  And it doesn't matter 
how easy you make it to remember the hash table for translating from name 
to number.  It's just human nature.  I realize this assertion is not 
welcomed by a lot of veteran game writers, but I do wonder if the 
designer's instinct to tinker maybe went too far there.

I used to be _much_ more friendly to the idea.  But, age has distilled what 
I see as its essential features to just two things.  If it's a hash table 
that slows things down instead of speeding them up, then do away with 
it.  Saves trouble for everyone all around.

Insofar as introducing a task system also led to written guidelines in the 
rules helping referees know what was considered Impossible, Routine, etc., 
that was a good thing.  As a referee, I like to know what the game designer 
really had in mind for how to apply a particular skill to various 
situations.  I may or may not follow it, but it sure helps keep the game 
flowing to have it already provided, and it helps keep the game universe 
consistent for the referee and players.

Getting down to brass tacks even more, it wasn't really a case of 
"introducing a task system".  It was calling an existing process by the 
name 'task system', and adding some more bits and pieces to how the process 
worked.  Whether called 'task system' or not, you still had the process of 
the player (often with referee assistance, or the referee alone) 
determining degree of success or failure by rolling dice, then comparing 
the result to a rule set that modelled the real-world (or fantasy-world) 
difficulty level of that task as part of the game's design.

I am all for keeping the interface for that task as easy and comfortable as 
possible, consistent with the degree of complexity deemed necessary for the 
rule set.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:40:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:40:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020402083045.E9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017700837.7515.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> Actually no, we already know that the *ship* retains its original
> velocity through jump.  It is just the motion of the *exit point*
> during the time of uncertainty in arrival that I'm talking about.
Ok, yeah, misread what you were talking about.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:43:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:43:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017701001.1051.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> They already have something today that will zoom under your 
> car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
> even restart).
> 
> There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
> a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
> will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
> Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
> go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In fact,
gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing the thing will
short out all of its electronics, not to mention other nearby electronics.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:46:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:46:18 +0100
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401170844.027d1130@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <003101c1d9cf$1c812d50$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> LOL, mine too.  Yeah, spell checkers that are dumber than human copy
> editors are definitely a pet peeve of mine, also.  And while I applaud the
> very human instinct to tinker with things to make them better, I also
> applaud someone with the judgment to know when to stop.

Or at least to wait until the fix is coherent, universal, and final....

>
> As far as Trav things that have been improved over time but I'm not so
sure
> they should have been, I would like to consider the introduction of the
> task system.  The more time goes by, the more it seems to me that most
> players are most comfortable if they just know what number they have to
> roll higher or lower than, and what the dice modifiers are.  Most people
> don't like to be troubled with Impossible, Difficult, Routine, or other
> arbitrary names.  They just want to know the number.  And it doesn't
matter
> how easy you make it to remember the hash table for translating from name
> to number.  It's just human nature.  I realize this assertion is not
> welcomed by a lot of veteran game writers, but I do wonder if the
> designer's instinct to tinker maybe went too far there.

I like the T4 system of target number defined by skill and stat; difficulty
(number of dice) by the referee. It works, it's simple. I can remember it.
And since everything is Formidable in my games, you know you have to roll
3D... (!) It's not the same as the MT task system, but it does the same job
and (for me) it's intuitive.

Complex is not better, not-no-never!

>
> I used to be _much_ more friendly to the idea.  But, age has distilled
what
> I see as its essential features to just two things.  If it's a hash table
> that slows things down instead of speeding them up, then do away with
> it.  Saves trouble for everyone all around.
>
> Insofar as introducing a task system also led to written guidelines in the
> rules helping referees know what was considered Impossible, Routine, etc.,
> that was a good thing.  As a referee, I like to know what the game
designer
> really had in mind for how to apply a particular skill to various
> situations.  I may or may not follow it, but it sure helps keep the game
> flowing to have it already provided, and it helps keep the game universe
> consistent for the referee and players.

Yes. better to understand how this rule relates to reality than to be able
to read seven pages of examples and special cases....

>>
> I am all for keeping the interface for that task as easy and comfortable
as
> possible, consistent with the degree of complexity deemed necessary for
the
> rule set.
>
>

Being a Rules-Dumbass, I have to agree....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:47:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:47:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8CE2395.33F89%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 2:39 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> They already have something today that will zoom under your
> car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
> even restart).
> 
> There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
> a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
> will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
> Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
> go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).
> 
> It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
> have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
> left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.
> 
> Shades of Team Fortress Classic.

Isn't that why Military gear uses GaAs semiconductors?  IIRC, these are more
resistant to EMP (and more expensive too).  One would hope that all military
gear would be proof against this.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:48:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:48:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701001.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE23CA.33F8A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 2:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In fact,
> gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing the thing will
> short out all of its electronics, not to mention other nearby electronics.

What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:52:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:52:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
Message-ID: <200204012252.DDN03437@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>If it's a hash table that slows things down instead of 
>speeding them up, then do away with 
>it.  Saves trouble for everyone all around.
>

The problem I have with making corrections/changes/etc to the 
combat system of CT/Book 4 is that it is *very* easy to walk 
off the Cliffs of Complexity.

I am trying to avoid using tables, except a few during 
character generation to come up with your initiative and your 
actions.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:54:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:54:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701001.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020401225400.55216.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

Hmm, I wonder if battle dress uses fiber optics? 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:55:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:55:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012255.DDN03784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?
>
A very, very distinct EM signal.  I'm sure that a simple RF 
detector would be very cheap.

Imagine that on Regina, there are RF DF units on most tall 
buildings.  

Now, anyone cuts loose with a gauss or railgun (and if we 
listen for special capacitor discharges, any laser) and we 
know within a small area where and what type weapon was fired.

The law level is already a bit high there.  I could see it 
happenning.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:54:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:54:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401170844.027d1130@pop.wizard.net> <003101c1d9cf$1c812d50$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CA8E542.8E4259DC@premier.net>


MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> I like the T4 system of target number defined by skill and stat; difficulty
> (number of dice) by the referee. It works, it's simple. I can remember it.
> And since everything is Formidable in my games, you know you have to roll
> 3D... (!) It's not the same as the MT task system, but it does the same job
> and (for me) it's intuitive.

The way my referee handles many tasks, you start at Average; if you
succeed, you work your way up the chart until you fail.  The highest
level at which you succeeded determines the degree of success.  Forex, a
Tactics roll made at Average would enable a leader to form a workable
plan to carry out a given mission.  The same Tactics roll successfully
made at Average, Difficult and Formidable levels would allow that same
leader to create a plan that took the enemy by complete surprise and
caused the foe to surrender after only token resistance.
> 
> Complex is not better, not-no-never!

All depends on where the complexity is and how much it adds to the
gaming experience.  This is, of course, a situation in which _everone's_
mileage is likely to vary....

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:56:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:56:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE23CA.33F8A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017701795.5627.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 4/1/02 2:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> > 
> > Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In
> > fact, gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing
> > the thing will short out all of its electronics, not to mention other
> > nearby electronics. 
> 
> What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?

Presumably, one strong, sharp pulse lasting roughly the length of time it takes
for a bullet to go the length of the barrel.  Not immediately inclined to
figure out the total emitted energy, but I rather doubt that it's small.

Also, gauss weapon != railgun.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:06:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701795.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE27DC.33FBE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 2:56 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> 
> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.
> 

Yes.  According to Book 4, a gauss rifle seems more like a coil gun.  But is
there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  Railguns seem much
simpler for such an application.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:06:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:06:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012255.DDN03784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017702412.3010.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> Now, anyone cuts loose with a gauss or railgun (and if we 
> listen for special capacitor discharges, any laser) and we 
> know within a small area where and what type weapon was fired.

Fusion and plasma weapons will be plenty visible too.  You'll need to
triangulate from multiple sensors, of course, since it's long-wave and won't
give good directional information.

All the more reason to use a good old-fashioned chemical weapon (of course,
bullet noise detectors exist too).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:12:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012312.DDN05750@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>But is there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  
>Railguns seem much simpler for such an application.
>--

I've seen photos of a .45 caliber fully automatic coilgun 
from the WW II era (never more than an experiment).  The gun 
could operate off of vehicle power, and fired at pistol 
velocities and around 600 rounds per minute.

I saw this in the back of Popular Science not too far back 
(well, not all the way back to my childhood).

Would that be considered a "firearm" or even a "machinegun"?  
It looks like something that could be run off the same outlet 
as your washer/dryer.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:15:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:15:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE27DC.33FBE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017702953.7419.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> 
> Yes.  According to Book 4, a gauss rifle seems more like a coil gun.  But
> is there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  Railguns seem much
> simpler for such an application.

Shush.  We're talking canon, not reality.  As far as I can tell fusion and
plasma weapons are stupid ideas too, but canonical ;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:16:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:16:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017702412.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE2A4A.33FED%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 3:06 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> Fusion and plasma weapons will be plenty visible too.  You'll need to
> triangulate from multiple sensors, of course, since it's long-wave and won't
> give good directional information.

Won't you be able to get adequate info from start of pulse and two sensors?
why should wavelength matter, except in regard to the detection antenna.
RDF relies on signal strength.
> 
> All the more reason to use a good old-fashioned chemical weapon (of course,
> bullet noise detectors exist too).

Noise detectors can be fooled by sound suppressors and reflected noise.
Most bullet noise is from the ballistic crack anyway.  There is millimeter
wave radar in use that does a fine job detecting bullets and calculating
back trajectories,  Of course this does get tricky when there's a few
thousand projectiles going hither and yon.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:17:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:17:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Coilgun, or Everyone Go Out And Build A Gauss Rifle
Message-ID: <200204012317.DDO00214@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.oz.net/~coilgun/home.htm

Stone knives and bearskins.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:25:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:25:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIEFADIAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

Really?  Why dont the cops use them for those highway chases then?
Something that kills the engine would be real handy there...

>>They already have something today that will zoom under your
>>car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
>>even restart).


Justin

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:40 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] handy device


They already have something today that will zoom under your
car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
even restart).

There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.

Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:26:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:26:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE2A4A.33FED%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017703573.6212.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 4/1/02 3:06 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> > Fusion and plasma weapons will be plenty visible too.  You'll need to
> > triangulate from multiple sensors, of course, since it's long-wave and
> > won't give good directional information.
> 
> Won't you be able to get adequate info from start of pulse and two sensors?

You'll need at least three to be certain.  In any case, using two sensors is
triangulation.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:31:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:31:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401181557.00a8b2e0@pop.wizard.net>

JT Kwon wrote:
>And the Army sums all of that up in "always consider METT-T
>when making decisions".
Yes, exactly.  Just rephrasing Sun Tzu, really.

>The scale I'm thinking about is the typical Traveller party.
>They don't have enough bodies to do it right, on the
>average.  So they'll be throwing grenades.  But the soldiers
>who are fighting against a party might just rush in like this.
Aha.  I wasn't really thinking in that context.  Agreed, that they very 
well might.  My response to the starship-theft scenario was to decide that 
any decent-sized starport (in the Imperium) is going to have its own SWAT 
team.  So it might be the SWAT team who is assaulting.

>I'm not sure that you could move that quickly under zero-g
>conditions.
An excellent point.  You could launch yourself along a vector by pushing 
off a wall, etc. but you might have a tough time getting three or four 
people to burst into a room while staying close enough to touch each other, 
then split off into different directions as soon as each one just barely 
got inside the door frame.

Should make Zero-G Combat a desirable skill.  A skilled person would 
probably be able to bounce off the door frame as they enter and move 
practically parallel to the interior wall.  A little like getting skilled 
on a trampoline.

>I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run
>on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship
>from stem to stern.  Arguably, orders are going to tell a
>military unit to use the least level of violence necessary to
>take your ship, but if you successfully resisted one boarding
>attempt, and they wanted the ship, they could just give you
>all the "treatment" and board after everyone dies of
>radiation.

Good idea, but only when you don't care about trashing the rather expensive 
ship.  Hmm, if you have particle accelerators with relatively low power 
settings, then maybe you have meson guns and the luxury of being able to 
target them very finely.  Use neural activity sensors for targeting.  How's 
_that_ for a science fiction scene?  Arthur C. Clarke himself, sitting in 
the interior, wouldn't be able to distinguish it from magic as hostage 
takers in the cabin with him suddenly have large chunks of their bodies 
just disappear, with a release of some heat.

If it's a SWAT type situation, I think most SWATs would have robots 
somewhat smaller than humans, and would use breaching charges to crack open 
hatches or portholes and then insert the bots.  The bots wouldn't so much 
be fighting bots as exploratory scout bots.  Also explosive bots and 
gas-releasing bots.  Let's see, using neural activity sensors from outside 
the hull, you should be able to breach almost directly into the hull where 
the targets are.  They might also try to breach the hull where they can cut 
off power to the internal grav grid, or try to seize control of the 
internal grav grid.  Similarly, breaching the hull to open the interior to 
raw vacuum might be useful if the targets don't all have proper suits.  In 
general, you'd like to avoid breaching the hull, because that damage is 
more difficult to repair and make the ship spaceworthy again.  Breaching 
hatches and portholes is better.  IMTU.  YMMV.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:29:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:29:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012329.DDP00854@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Justin Bunnell" says
>
>Really?  Why dont the cops use them for those highway chases 
>then? Something that kills the engine would be real handy 
>there...
>

that's who it's marketed to.  It's a little flat rocket 
powered car that's about 1 foot x 2 foot.  It drops from 
under the chase car, zooms forward, and is guided under the 
target car.

I think that the EMP part works fine.  It's probably not very 
good on even slightly bad pavement, and you have to get it 
under the target vehicle.

I hear they have the same sort of thing for roadblocks, 
except that the target vehicle drives over the EMP device.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:39:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:39:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017700663.113.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401183213.00a8a050@pop.wizard.net>

Anthony Jackson quoted and wrote:
>John T. Kwon writes:
>
> > I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run
> > on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship
> > from stem to stern.
>
>Not without some means of penetrating the Unobtainium shielding used to make
>gas giant refueling survivable.

I had a similar thought about the unobtainium.  I think what John had in 
mind was toasting up the unobtainium just enough to cause it to throw all 
kinds of nasty radiation from the unobtainium hull itself.  Not crack the 
ship open, just induce severe radiation sickness in its inhabitants.

Depending on the properties of the unobtainium (crystaliron, bonded 
superdense, whatever) the ship may or may not become safe for human 
habitation in the next decade or more.  And of course, maybe the TL 15 
wizards can shoot another ray gun at the hull to make it stop being 
radioactive again.  Wouldn't that be handy?  Hmm, also handy for 
battlefield cleanup in all too many situations.  I could never figure out 
why the Traveller universe isn't _much_ more littered with radioactive 
wastelands than canon indicates.  Now if someone can just come up with an 
acceptable hand wave for the ray gun.  (Does anyone else remember the 
ionization denebulizer guns for kids?)

Neither materials science nor particle physics are my fields (obviously), 
but I think the gist of what I'm saying works anyway.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:37:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] F15D Scorpion Recon Fighter TL 11
References: <3CA80B0E.6302.4EB743@localhost>
Message-ID: <005701c1d9d6$22597000$a5d0f6d1@customer>

I can't read whatever format your designs are in.  Do you have a HMTL or
Text version.

John Scarlett

----- Original Message -----
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 8:23 AM
Subject: [TML] F15D Scorpion Recon Fighter TL 11


> A Recon fighter design for the Consort and Kiev, Thanks for the
Inspiration Anthony
>
>
>


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> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
>
>    ---- File information -----------
>      File:  F15C Scorpion 15T Fighter TL11.gtv
>      Date:  1 Apr 2002, 7:16
>      Size:  6244 bytes.
>      Type:  Unknown
>


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> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:43:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:43:22 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
>And no frags!

Looking down pitifully at very large frag grenade with it's pin pulled and 
spoon just about to be released...

"Awwwww.  But Sa-arge?" comes the whine.

Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable sleeves and even 
the explosive charge can pull apart into three separate and working 
charges.  You can make your grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need it 
to be, pretty much.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:42:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:42:52 +0100
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
References: <200204012252.DDN03437@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003801c1d9d7$03a278e0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> 
> The problem I have with making corrections/changes/etc to the 
> combat system of CT/Book 4 is that it is *very* easy to walk 
> off the Cliffs of Complexity.
> 
> I am trying to avoid using tables, except a few during 
> character generation to come up with your initiative and your 
> actions.
>

Wise. Very Wise.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:45:02 +0100
Subject: [TML] room clearing
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <003f01c1d9d7$50c1d1c0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable sleeves and even
> the explosive charge can pull apart into three separate and working
> charges.  You can make your grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need
it
> to be, pretty much.
>
That sounds like something that troopers would break.
As in "if you leave three soldiers in the desert with an anvil, and come
back later, the anvil will be broken. And they won't know how it happened."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:47:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:47:19 -0800
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DB@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

You might want to try to find a copy of Yachts International Magazine.  Fodder for those dreams ;)

Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: laning [mailto:laning@wizard.net]
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 1:44 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)


Living on an airplane would not be fun.  All that loud buzzing.  And the 
bad air.  Yuck.

My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.

I like to throw in people living out the Traveller version of this dream 
wandering from planet to planet, living on their converted merchant.  The 
more oft-encountered version of people living an imitation of this dream is 
the crew of a merchant that is family, or like a family together.  They 
still need to hustle for the credits to pay off the bank, keep the ship 
fuelled and maintained, etc.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:50:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:50:33 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <001f01c1d9c8$14f2af20$629193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com>
 <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net>

I wrote:
> > My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a
> > twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.
> >
MJD responded:
>I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air force.

I want the yacht because it makes it a lot easier to travel to and visit 
all the places I want to see.  I've seen Greece for all of ten days, and 
that certainly isn't enough.  Just for starters.  Most of the world's 
population lives within twenty miles of navigable water I have read more 
than once, so it should make life convenient.

And yes, San Diego would be high on my list of places to spend some anchor 
time.  My friend went on an Alaskan coastline cruise in her yacht last year 
and loved it; it's the other direction but you may want to think about 
it.  Don't forget to watch John Sayles' movie 'Limbo' before you go.  :->

ObTrav:  Just where in the Spinward Marches would be the popular 
destinations for pleasure travellers with the means?  Would there be 
anything seasonal to the travel patterns?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:52:04 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185058.00a65e80@pop.wizard.net>

JT Kwon wrote:
>Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
>
>You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles,
>but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up
>with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right
>positions in government for the die hards, it might work.

The worst part is it's probably the New Zealanders on the list who are 
laughing the hardest at that.  :->

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:50:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:50:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012350.DDP03311@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable 
>sleeves and even the explosive charge can pull apart into 
>three separate and working charges.  You can make your 
>grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need it 
>to be, pretty much.
>
I've seen a modern German grenade that has a removable sleeve 
for frag/no frag.  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:51:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:51:46 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> > >
> MJD responded:
> >I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air
force.
>
> I want the yacht because it makes it a lot easier to travel to and visit
> all the places I want to see.  I've seen Greece for all of ten days, and
> that certainly isn't enough.  Just for starters.  Most of the world's
> population lives within twenty miles of navigable water I have read more
> than once, so it should make life convenient.
>

Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are
very handy for burglars...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:56:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:56:53 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>

MJD wrote:
>OBTRAV: sell that Free Trader, buy a small land mass, and be your own
>fascist dictator.

Which is sort of the the piracy issue brought up earlier.  If you can skip 
on your ship's mortage, or steal a ship, or pirate a ship just _one_ time 
in your life and sell the ship, then a lot of people would.  And in fact 
buy their own island somewhere.  Or live on the Spruce Goose or whatever 
their dream is.

Knowing most player characters as we do, it's no wonder so few referees 
like to let their PCs get possession of a ship, any ship.  Me?  I'd like to 
give players ships, I really would.  But what they'll do with the ill 
gotten booty from selling it terrifies me.

This has driven me to tinker with starship costs quite a lot, trying to 
reduce their value by orders of magnitude.  I still haven't found a 
solution that seems properly balanced.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:54:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:54:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
making MY windows rattle.

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:40 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] handy device


They already have something today that will zoom under your 
car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
even restart).

There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then 
have something like this land at your feet.  You might be 
left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.

Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:55:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:55:23 -0600
Subject: Soldiers Breaking Things (was: Re: [TML] room clearing)
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net> <003f01c1d9d7$50c1d1c0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CA8F36B.AD819CDD@premier.net>


MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
> > Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable sleeves and even
> > the explosive charge can pull apart into three separate and working
> > charges.  You can make your grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need
> it
> > to be, pretty much.
> >
> That sounds like something that troopers would break.
> As in "if you leave three soldiers in the desert with an anvil, and come
> back later, the anvil will be broken. And they won't know how it happened."

Reminds me of a comic strip in _The Paraglide_ (the Ft. Bragg post
newspaper) a number of years ago.  This particular edition of "G.I.
Bill" was on "The Thought Processes of a Private," which were broken
down into the following steps (this is from memory, but it should be
mostly accurate):

1.  Private hears question from sergeant ("How could you lose a 2 1/2
ton truck?!?")
2.  Ears send question to brain.
3.  Brain, not wanting to deal with question, sends question to stomach.
4.  Stomach mishears question as "What was that stuff they served for
lunch today in the chow hall?"
5.  Stomach sends answer to question to mouth.
6.  Mouth responds, "I don't know, Sergeant!"

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:58:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:58:20 EST
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
Message-ID: <193.4c190af.29da4e1c@aol.com>

--part1_193.4c190af.29da4e1c_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 02/04/02 00:53:39 GMT Daylight Time, 
martinjd@globalnet.co.uk writes:


> Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are
> very handy for burglars...
> 

I'm sure they are - think of the damage the little rascal could do when he 
got them home.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_193.4c190af.29da4e1c_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 00:53:39 GMT Daylight Time, martinjd@globalnet.co.uk writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are<BR>
very handy for burglars...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I'm sure they are - think of the damage the little rascal could do when he got them home.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_193.4c190af.29da4e1c_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:59:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:59:06 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017702953.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE344A.3401B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 3:15 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

>> Yes.  According to Book 4, a gauss rifle seems more like a coil gun.  But
>> is there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  Railguns seem much
>> simpler for such an application.
> 
> Shush.  We're talking canon, not reality.  As far as I can tell fusion and
> plasma weapons are stupid ideas too, but canonical ;)

I like railguns.  I like the idea of a gauss weapon with a muzzle blast and
noise.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:02:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:02:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE344A.3401B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017705741.4086.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> > Shush.  We're talking canon, not reality.  As far as I can tell fusion
> > and plasma weapons are stupid ideas too, but canonical ;)
> 
> I like railguns.  I like the idea of a gauss weapon with a muzzle blast and
> noise.

Why would a railgun produce either?  Aside from the sabot being ejected, and
the crack of the bullet, that is, and both would apply to coilguns too.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:07:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:07:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012350.DDP03311@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8CE3646.34024%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 3:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> laning says
>> 
>> Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable
>> sleeves and even the explosive charge can pull apart into
>> three separate and working charges.  You can make your
>> grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need it
>> to be, pretty much.
>> 
> I've seen a modern German grenade that has a removable sleeve
> for frag/no frag.

So called offensive/defensive or polyvalent grenades. There are a whole slew
of them.

I suspect you're thinking of the DM 51.  There's a removable plastic body
element containing steel shot that fits around an HE core and fuse.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:13:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:13:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204011749.DDD03964@vmms1.verisignmail.com> from "John T. Kwon" at Apr 01, 2002 12:49:19 PM
Message-ID: <200204020013.g320DTU02643@localhost.uia.net>

> I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
> effects when you modify Planck's constant.

Not talking about modifying Planck's constant. Only talking about
modifying inertia. Tim introduced the idea of modifying Planck's
constant as a device to keep strangeness from happening when
inertia is modified, but I'm not 100% sure that inertial suppression
would necessarily result in strangeness in the first place. Trying
to get some thoughts on the matter.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:22:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:22:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017705741.4086.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE39B4.34031%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 4:02 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
>> I like railguns.  I like the idea of a gauss weapon with a muzzle blast and
>> noise.
> 
> Why would a railgun produce either?  Aside from the sabot being ejected, and
> the crack of the bullet, that is, and both would apply to coilguns too.

Well, unless you are in vacuum, you get incandescent gas from the arc and
plasma.  See the photos of some real railguns at
http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons/tech/rail.html

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:32:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:32:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE39B4.34031%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017707545.2749.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:

> Well, unless you are in vacuum, you get incandescent gas from the arc and
> plasma.  See the photos of some real railguns at
> http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons/tech/rail.html

Hm...ideally you'd avoid arcing in the first place, since it's not at all
necessary for accelerating the round.  I guess some arcing is unavoidable,
though.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:05:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 20:05:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] I need to run a real life battle
In-Reply-To: <20020329.215011.-23887.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHEEPFCFAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

Do I get to use my shotgun?

-SRS-

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
> generalturokan@juno.com
> Sent: Saturday, 30 March, 2002 00:50
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] I need to run a real life battle
> 
> 
> Thank you TML
> 
> On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 17:48:18 -0800 generalturokan@juno.com writes:
> > 
> > Are there any volunteers?
> 
> I wish to thank all those who've responded off-line to my request.
> 
> Thanks a lot.
> 
> I wont need anyone else to volunteer.
> 
> 
> Gen. Turokan
> 
> 
> -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..       ..   ...       --   -.-- 
>     ...   .-   ...-   ..   ---   .-.   --..--      
>  ..       .-..   ---   ...-  .       .---   .   ...   ..-   ...      
> -.-.   ....   .-.   ..   ...   -       .--  ..   -   ....       
> .-   .-..   .-..       --   -.--       ....   .   .-  .-.   -   .-.-.-
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:10:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:10:19 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>

One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at
doorlocks etc...

How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior is
exposed to Vacuum?

Not many...

Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by
being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a recording
being played over radio)

I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices
relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad ID
number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the
card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you
have access to your account.

After all, you want security to stop casual access to secure areas, but not
so secure that it inhibits routine or emergency access.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:17:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:17:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>

Matthew Bond writes:
> One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's
> at doorlocks etc...
> 
> How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior
> is exposed to Vacuum?

How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use? 
There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
'security while everyone is away'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:22:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:22:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Accents and Bonuses
Message-ID: <gu1iau87ahojttup95thnjogcis4ps6ijl@4ax.com>

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 08:11:19 -0800 (PST), Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:

>ObTrav: A ship crewed by Orthodox Jews sets up so they will spend Passover 
>in jump.  They misjump, and come out of jump way early, on a course to hit 
>something large and fatal.  Your characters are passengers on said 
>ship..  Much fun happens.

Actually, _any_ of the rules can be broken if the alternative is one's own
death.  Including the Sabbath, and eating treyf.



--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:23:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:23:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Pinging the list
Message-ID: <tv1iauc8kg0u7pr0a2985fcfqb69fevomj@4ax.com>

Checking some odd behavior of my mail client and/or ISP.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:40:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:40:01 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <00c801c1d9e7$4e129d00$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?


> Matthew Bond writes:
> > One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint
ID's
> > at doorlocks etc...
> >
> > How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> > Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the
interior
> > is exposed to Vacuum?
>
> How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use?
> There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
> 'security while everyone is away'.

On any passenger carrying vessel, I would expect several areas to be Locked
routinely... Bridge, Cargo, Engineering, etc.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:45:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:45:41 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <00d401c1d9e8$18f2f420$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?


> Matthew Bond writes:
> > One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint
ID's
> > at doorlocks etc...
> >
> > How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> > Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the
interior
> > is exposed to Vacuum?
>
> How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use?
> There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
> 'security while everyone is away'.

And what happens if battle damage (or a micrometeoroid impact) has cause the
hull to become depressurised, while simultaneously causing a computer glitch
to activate the Locks used while in Dock...

If there is any chance that the lockable area needs to be accessed in vacuum
conditions, then I for one want a locking mechanism that doesn't require me
to expose any part of my body to vacuum.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:50:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:50:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1d9e8$18f2f420$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>

Matthew Bond writes:

> And what happens if battle damage (or a micrometeoroid impact) has cause
> the hull to become depressurised, while simultaneously causing a computer
> glitch to activate the Locks used while in Dock...

Well, odds are the lock won't work at all then.  Plus, who says you're going to
put a thumbprint lock on the _inside_ of the lock?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:03:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:03:55 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <20020401200104.BCEA627A48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c1d9e9$a2218e40$f6b18b90@computer>

> From: laning
> Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no
> scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the
> fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world
> in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL 13
> COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much less
> likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.

One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:56:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:56:24 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer>

> From: "MJ Dougherty"
> Cool! New Zealand is nice. And it's close to Doug's Penguin Emporium too.

Sadly, somebody already owns New Zealand.  It's just not considered polite
to talk about it.  The same applies to Papua New Guinea, East Timor, and a
bunch of other countries.

> OBTRAV: sell that Free Trader, buy a small land mass, and be your own
> fascist dictator.

That's my favourite kind of game these days.  I've got to the point where
starships barely appear any more.

"Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got a
harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a fusion
reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own army.
What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania thinks he
has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us independent
enclaves to make sure he doesn't."

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:57:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:57:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <003d01c1d9e9$a2218e40$f6b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017712657.2060.ajackson@ping>

Alan Bradley writes:
> > From: laning
> > Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no
> > scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the
> > fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world
> > in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL
> > 13 COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much
> > less likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.
> 
> One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?

Um...most likely something he's not supposed to be doing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 02:01:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:01:13 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017712657.2060.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CA910E9.25637C99@premier.net>


Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Alan Bradley writes:

<<snip>>
> >
> > One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?
> 
> Um...most likely something he's not supposed to be doing?

Pining for the fjords?  (Or, for GT players, pining for the fnords.)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 02:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 03:08:08 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?


> Matthew Bond writes:
>
> > And what happens if battle damage (or a micrometeoroid impact) has cause
> > the hull to become depressurised, while simultaneously causing a
computer
> > glitch to activate the Locks used while in Dock...
>
> Well, odds are the lock won't work at all then.  Plus, who says you're
going to
> put a thumbprint lock on the _inside_ of the lock?

Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:07:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:07:17 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com> <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane>

Alan tells us:
> "Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got a
> harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
> schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a fusion
> reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own army.
> What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania thinks he
> has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us independent
> enclaves to make sure he doesn't."

Yeah, I know what you mean.  That seems to be the way my Traveller game is
gravitating.

I suppose it's the eternal hazard of lavishing too much detail on the worlds
your PCs visit:  They start getting these crazy notions of settling down and
setting up shop!  While I enjoy exploring the "going native" part of the
game, it's also unbelievably frustrating at times.

I really don't want to allow this kind of behaviour.  Maybe it's because I'm
afraid of commitment. Uhm.. To a single world, that is.  Or simply that I
just can't let go of the "traveling" aspect of Traveller.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Proponent of Planetary Polygamy
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 02:25:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:55:47 +0930 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
In-Reply-To: <200204011651.DDB04154@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204021153350.24002-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi John:

On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> I like to have robots, but there's a certain tedium to Book
> 8.  So far, I've resorted to just "saying" that a robot is a
> certain way.  I don't really like the Star Wars robots, but
> there is a certain edge to the robots as presented in AI
> (where they are "nearly" like us, but still imperfect).
>
> How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?

 Been way to long since I looked at Book 8. As for bots in my game world.
U used some ideas from a Challange article on Shadowrun and images  for my
mind from the High Colonies game  Mainly now besides sercant bots on
tracks or wheels. The others encountered are "pig iron" Secutrity type
that are armed.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:16:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:16:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204020316.DDW00039@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bulkhead Doors

Bulkhead doors can be either a retracting door or an iris 
valve.  Which one is more common depends on YTU.  In canon, 
they are iris valves.

All bulkhead doors have a basic mechanical mechanism, which 
can be operated in a powered or non-powered mode.

All bulkhead doors have an mechanical lock which has a 
powered assist.

All bulkhead doors have a pressure indicator, both a powered 
indicator and a manual pin.  If there is vacuum on the other 
side, and air on your side, the pin slot shows a depression.  
If you are in vacuum and there is pressure on the other side, 
the pin sticks out.  If the pressure is equal, the pin is 
level with the surface.  Some ships, military and scoutships 
in particular, will also have fire and radiation sensors at 
every bulkhead door.

In an emergency, the door can be unlocked manually and 
operated manually. The manual lock requires a key, which all 
ship's personnel carry.  It is rather large, and easy to 
handle with gloved hands.  Usually, all keys are the same, 
except for keys leading to the bridge and engineering, which 
are both different by custom.

On military ships, all keys are kept in cases near each 
door.  For special secure areas, the keys are under Marine 
guard.

If the door still has power, and the key is used to operate 
the door, an alarm will sound in that section and on the 
bridge.

For more convenience, bulkhead doors are usually used in 
powered mode.  There is a sensor pad next to the door, which 
can detect a keycard within 10cm.  If the keycard is valid, 
the buttons which operate the door are enabled: there are two 
buttons which change color by status:  lock/unlock and 
open/close.  There is a convenience pocket in vacc suit 
sleeves (right and left) into which a crewman usually has a 
keycard.  The pocket is closed with velcro.

Airlocks

Airlocks have two bulkhead doors: inner and outer.  The 
airlock is equipped with pressure sensors inside and outside 
the airlock (including inside the ship).  There are 
additional controls in the airlock which also respond to the 
keys which are used to control the pressure in the airlock 
itself.  Scout ships usually have a more exotic external 
atmosphere sensor, which can also be monitored from the 
bridge. At least one door on passenger ships has a weapons 
detector and explosives/powercell sniffer.

Even if the ship is on the ground, and there is breathable 
air, if you open the inner door, the airlock chamber has 
warning lights that come on.  If there is vacuum outside and 
atmosphere inside, a warning will sound in that section and 
on the bridge.  Once you close the inner door, you can open 
the outer door.  In order to open both doors at once, it 
requires that you manually operate the doors -- this cannot 
be done using the electronic controls.

Now, as for securing the ship against theft while on the 
ground:

The ship's computer operates in a different mode when landed 
or docked, as opposed to under way.  Once the ship's computer 
is not in "under way" mode, a specific crewman's sensor key 
and password is required to change the mode.  Logon to ship's 
computers is a combination of the sensor key and a password.

If you can't log on and don't have permission to change the 
mode, you can't operate the engines, sensors, weapons, etc.

Additionally, the ship, while not "under way", will sound an 
alarm if one of the airlock or cargo bay doors is opened 
manually or forced.  This alarm can be sent to a 
predesignated communicator (the captain's, for instance).  
This alarm can be set through the ship's computer for any 
door.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:49:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:49:00 -0500
Subject: [TML] does that make me an apostate?
In-Reply-To: <200204011656.DDB04760@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401224644.00cdd1a8@192.168.0.1>

At 11:56 AM 4/1/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>As I've gotten older, I've just gotten to doing some
>equipment by "it's about this long, about this heavy, etc.."
>I've done the same thing with NPCs.
>Sometimes FFS drives me nuts.
>I seem to be able to write about some things better if I just
>say things are "just so".
>After all, can anyone out there take any of the robot design
>sequences and come up with Gigolo Joe?

Once the Tech level get's high enough, it would be easier to make a 'bio-bot'
Mostly human tissue grown in a vat and a programmed brain.  GURPs Robots 
would be my choice for design.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:52:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <3CA8C9D6.9000605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200203312207.DBP01462@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401224917.01b08448@192.168.0.1>

At 01:57 PM 4/1/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>John T. Kwon wrote:
>>The only problem I have with the new room clearing technique is that if 
>>people are expecting you, then all they need is a long burst fire (belt 
>>fed) to keep you out of the room.
>>The new technique involves a team of 4 flowing into the room and moving 
>>left or right as they flow in and occupy corners of the room by flowing 
>>along the walls.
>>Might make an interesting scenario to game out using ACQ.
>>If the people flowing into the room have more actions per combat round 
>>than the people occupying the room, it might work.
>>The use of grenades is now an exception in room clearing.  I do remember 
>>throwing a simulator into a closet in MOUT training, and being declared a 
>>casualty.  Maybe they have something there.
>I wonder how this compares, to, say, standard SWAT protocol for the same. 
>They make extensive use of flashbangs (Presumably the 'stun grenade' 
>mentioned in the link.

Flash bangs are also quite dangerous in confined spaces.  The big 
difference between that and fragmentation grenade is lack of fragmentation 
in the Flashbang.  You still have about the same amount of explosive material.

>Presumably they are less likely to encounter return fire than soldiers 
>clearing a room in a battle, but there's also the rather tricky (and now, 
>all too common) mingling of non-combatants and combatants in today's battles.
>Mis-calculate where enemy fire is coming from in a large building, and you 
>could burst into the room next door, filled with refugees instead of bad guys.
>All I can say is I DON'T want to be the poor sucker taking that #1 position.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!
Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:51:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:51:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
References: <200204011651.DDB04154@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA92ABA.54139D45@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?

I use book 8 and 101 Robots. My players currently use a batch of
obsolete TL 12 (MT) floor models including a traderbot, engineeringbot,
valetbot, medibot, constructionbot and agrobot. They take a perverse
delight in using the agrobot to take care of livestock for the vargar
steward to eat. As the TL goes up they become more "sophantlike" until
TL16 they begin to have personalities.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I eat babies. I drink pee. I must be French!, French!, French!
                  -Nathan Lane & Chris Katein



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:56:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:56:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE2395.33F89%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401225457.01da10b0@192.168.0.1>

At 02:47 PM 4/1/2002 -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 4/1/02 2:39 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> > They already have something today that will zoom under your
> > car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
> > even restart).
> > There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
> > a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
> > will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
> > Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
> > go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).
> > It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
> > have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
> > left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.
> > Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
>Isn't that why Military gear uses GaAs semiconductors?  IIRC, these are more
>resistant to EMP (and more expensive too).  One would hope that all military
>gear would be proof against this.

Extensive shielding and redundancy are parts of my handwaves on why 
Traveller computers are so darn big.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:58:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 21:58:01 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane>
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com> <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer> <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <ojaiaukds95jfm1e8hbvvfhdk7e51bpoec@4ax.com>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:07:17 +1000, "Shane Slamet"
<s.slamet@bom.gov.au> wrote:

>Alan tells us:
>> "Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got =
a
>> harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
>> schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a =
fusion
>> reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own =
army.
>> What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania =
thinks he
>> has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us =
independent
>> enclaves to make sure he doesn't."
>
>Yeah, I know what you mean.  That seems to be the way my Traveller game =
is
>gravitating.
>
>I suppose it's the eternal hazard of lavishing too much detail on the =
worlds
>your PCs visit:  They start getting these crazy notions of settling down=
 and
>setting up shop!  While I enjoy exploring the "going native" part of the
>game, it's also unbelievably frustrating at times.
>
>I really don't want to allow this kind of behaviour.  Maybe it's because=
 I'm
>afraid of commitment. Uhm.. To a single world, that is.  Or simply that =
I
>just can't let go of the "traveling" aspect of Traveller.

This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
(or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.

=46rom a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become part
of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:15:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:15:14 -0600
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
References: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping> <20020402083045.E9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CA93052.B595C25F@pobox.com>

Timothy Little wrote:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
> > Timothy Little writes:

>>As far as I can see, there are three main contenders for how the jump
exit point moves:...

> > > 3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
> > > planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.
> > This one has several things to recommend it, in particular the fact
> > that it cripples some of the simplest methods of relativistic
> > bombardment.
> Actually no, we already know that the *ship* retains its original
> velocity through jump.  ...
> In fact, option 3 makes relativistic bombardment *much* easier, since
> you know the near-c object will always emerge near the planned
> position relative to the planet.

I vote for option 3, although it does contribute to the near-C rock dilemma.
I have used it IMTU with a slight twist...the 'direction' of the ship's vector
on arrival is also relative to the body with the greatest gravitational field,
i.e. the planet.  So if you accelerate out from the planet and jump, you
arrive still heading away from the planet.

Under this model. it makes sense for merchants (and others) to jump with zero
velocity (relative to the planet).  It also means that anything which comes
out of jump with an inward vector (comes in 'hot') had to work hard to do
that, by travelling past the jump point, and then turning around and
accelerating back inward before jump.  Since most of the reasons for wanting
to do this are military in nature, system defenses are very hostile to ships
which come in 'hot'.

I deal with near-C rocks in another way, which I will post in a separate
thread so that all present can shoot holes in it ;-).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:11:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:11:40 -0600
Subject: [TML] Another Power Source For FF&S2?
Message-ID: <3CA92F7C.B45F42C3@premier.net>

Herewith my First of April contribution to the TML.  Enjoy!

While getting caught up on the Temple ov thee Lemur Web site, I noticed
that they had an article about a potato-powered Web server.  The FAQ, in
response to the question "How much energy can you get out of a potato?",
answered thusly:

"Again, this varies considerably. Using the zinc/copper electrodes that
we have at present, we get a voltage of about 0.8V (+-0.1V) and a
maximum sustainable currrent of about 15mA. We can draw this current for
about 15 hours before we notice an appreciable drop, so a back of an
envelope calculation of total useful energy would be in the region of
650J."

http://totl.net/FAQ/features/spud/

Should we add chemoelectric potatoes as a power plant option in FF&S2?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:02:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:02:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017702412.3010.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204012255.DDN03784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401195939.009fdcd0@mindspring.com>

At 03:06 PM 4/1/02 -0800, you wrote:
>All the more reason to use a good old-fashioned chemical weapon (of course,
>bullet noise detectors exist too).

But sound echoes..

Yesterday, being Easter, Colma's cemetaries were filled with Chinese 
families paying their respects to their ancestors.  This involves 
firecrackers.  Lots of firecrakers.

There are 45,000 bodies in Colma, close to half of them Chinese.  The town 
sits in a valley, and is *filled* with marble sound reflectors.

It sounded like a bloody battalion-sized firefight.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:14:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:14:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>

At 12:41 PM 4/1/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Unfortunately, the further I went the more I discovered
>that the two were completely incompatible. CT worldgen
>(including the extended system in Book 6) simply breaks
>the laws of physics. Repeatedly. In ways that are very
>hard to gloss over.

LOL!  Very true, very true...


>My response was to make "realistic" the default setting,
>and include a number of notes demonstrating how to go
>about something more Classic in style if that was to
>your taste. In retrospect that was probably the wrong
>strategy. At the time I wasn't sure what the biggest
>part of the audience would be - long-time Traveller
>players or newcomers. Clearly, I guessed wrong.

Not entirely true.. those not interested in scientific accuracy tend not to 
bother with extended design systems.


>If First In goes to a second edition, I think the world
>design sequence will default to something much more
>like Book 6 worldgen, with "realism notes" allowing the
>referee to flesh things out or substitute more realistic
>steps to taste. (About the only thing that I would "fix"
>in the default sequence would be the formula for world
>surface temperature in Book 6, which is not only wrong,
>but wrong in such a way that it actually makes Book 6
>much harder to use.)

Hey, I like it just fine.  The only thing I would change is move the 
sections on mapping and animal encounters behind the population details.

>I suspect that would make First In considerably easier
>for long-time Traveller fans to use in their established
>Traveller universes - while still allowing folks who
>roll their own to be as realistic as they choose.

For the record, for Trojan Reach I'm making adjustments to the classic 
information.  Mostly, this is changes stellar types, and changing the sizes 
of worlds that are way to small for their listed "uses."  I'm trying to 
keep the feel of the worlds while making them fit the math.

It's a tightrope, and I hope everyone approves.

(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:22:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <002401c1d9c3$ac6b2e40$6e9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401201741.009f0020@mindspring.com>

At 10:24 PM 4/1/02 +0100, you wrote:
>Guess I'm just on a bit of a hair-trigger about all the people wanting me/us
>to "fix" this or that about the Traveller universe, TNE, or GURPS Trav. Fix
>it enough times and it'll be something completely different to what you
>started with. Like my computer...

"Fixing" world generation doesn't have to be backwards compatible; if you 
want to have Mars-sized worlds with thick atmospheres, it's your hand wave.

In my experience, playing with the rules that the Gods of Nature and 
Physics give us is far more interesting, with odd results like the 
intelligences under the ice that Jens came up with...

For example: these races are all psionic, and have their own "Imperium" 
connected by telepathy and interstellar teleports.  They manipulate us to 
protect their own interests.  Interesting setting, especially when someone 
twigs to the secret.. y'see, *these* are the Ancients!  Al, the Yaskodray 
business is misdirection on their part.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 23:12:36 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <ojaiaukds95jfm1e8hbvvfhdk7e51bpoec@4ax.com>
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com> <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer> <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane> <ojaiaukds95jfm1e8hbvvfhdk7e51bpoec@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1dfiauodt52jg11nh29p9a68ulq7t55aer@4ax.com>

On Mon, 01 Apr 2002 21:58:01 -0600, JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
wrote:

>This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
>There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
>(or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
>sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
>example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.
>
>From a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become part
>of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
>destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
>becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.

Damn.  "Villains"

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:15:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David & Kristin Larson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 21:15:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] RE: John Kwon's SOP
In-Reply-To: <20020401233807.357B8279F7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1da05$6c754180$0300000a@c263000a>

John, I'd also be willing to review your SOP. I'm sure it's something I
could use and I'd be more than willing to pass on any thoughts or ideas
(probably give a different branch perspective as well).

David Larson
dlarson@blarg.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:43:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David & Kristin Larson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 21:43:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] RE: Room Clearing
In-Reply-To: <20020401233807.357B8279F7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c1da09$61259ba0$0300000a@c263000a>

Flash-bangs are in relatively common use (at least I've had no problem
getting them from the ASP).

The biggest factor regarding the use of frag grenades I've come up with is
the likelihood of 1) friendlies in the room (hostages, etc) and 2) the
likelihood of a frag/round punching through the wall. Lined up outside the
door, pressed against the wall is a bad place to be if you're about to
perforate said wall with fragments. Assuming the absence of friendlies and
the presence of strong walls, more boom is better. :)

Of course you always have to consider how badly you *want* to clear the room
or building. Sometimes it's just better to *remove* the building than to
preserve it for future use. YSMV (your situation may vary) ;)

Reading one of the earlier posts regarding the mechanics of room-clearing, a
key point was unclear: when entering the room (assuming a common four-sided
room) the four team members enter as fast as they can alternating moving to
the left and right along the two walls. As they move in they can clear what
they see, but each has a well defined sector that they are responsible for
and must clear. Just because you see a target doesn't make it your shot
(only if your sector is already cleared and no teammates are in the way). As
you move into the room your *available* sector of fire, that which you can
fire into, starts very large but then very rapidly shrinks to a tiny
fraction of what you had. That's why you sweep through the room rather than
point yourself directly at you corner.

Assuming your the number one man and your SOP has you entering and moving
left, your sweep as you enter the door will start in the center of the room
and rapidly sweep to the left corner. As you move towards that corner you
sweep back to the right towards the opposite corner until the room is clear.

OnT: This is not something that the ordinary Traveller group should attempt,
especially against trained opponents. Even if the defender is of a poor tech
level, poorly armed, etc he still holds an advantage. The only real asset
you have is shock and speed. This is a skill that must be trained over and
over and rehearsed repeatedly and against a wide variety of room and
situations. Just image a group of engineers and stewards trying something
like this during a 'hostage rescue' scenario, especially once surprise is
lost. The outcome is left to the imagination.

David
dlarson@blarg.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 06:21:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:21:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sHfY-0003IO-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

> John T. Kwon writes:
> > They already have something today that will zoom under your 
> > car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
> > even restart).
> > 
> > There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
> > a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
> > will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
> > Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
> > go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that difficult to 
build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate power 
battery.  
 
> Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In
> fact, gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing
> the thing will short out all of its electronics, not to mention other
> nearby electronics.

I've a few comments and questions here:

1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this 
shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be 
overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP? 

2) While military equipment wil be shielded, many worlds would 
likely strongly prefer if civilian weapons were not, since having a 
way to stop everyone's guns from working would be a godsend for 
cops (who would presumably also have shielded weapons).   

3) Even if you don't get the weapons, cutting off someone's comm 
will at least stop them from calling for backup.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:28:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:28:21 -0600
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV158oWo7w0nGEbJ8M00012276@hotmail.com>

> I have the feeling that an Imperial ability to commandeer
> your ship is a factor here.

Actually legal forms of "theft" such as comandeering and repossession didn't
enter my mind when I posted, but I can see that these issues are integral to
the question under discussion.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:02:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:02:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <DAV58nLJm2ZBNCogiwH0001b30b@hotmail.com>

As soon as the door begins opening they
> all shoot him.

PCs who went too far?  I'm shocked!<G>

Oddly enough this closely resembles the head-in-the-sand failure to realize
that actions have consequences that so often precedes crime in real life.

> If that same party tried that same stunt again, I'd have the guards at the
> fence shoot them with tranq and they'd wake up in jail.

Ahh, the Prison Campaign...

>there would be automatic
> security programs would have taken over to incapacitate the
> boarders.  Including, lighting, temperature controls, random and extreme
> variations in the artificial gravity grid (from weightless state to
> negative one gee to positive one gee then back to negative one gee, etc.),
> locking down all interior and exterior hatches, and even evacuating air
> from different spaces.  Each individual grav plate is separately
> controlled, and there are preprogrammed routines for turning off all grav
> plates in a corridor except one which is turned to maximum, and sequencing
> which plate is turned to maximum so as to pull someone in the corridor to
> one end or the other of it.  With sufficiently high-powered grav plates,
> someone can be thrown into an airlock, for instance.

A beautiful description of exactly what I meant by "Does the environmental
system become hostile?).  Nice!

>
> Insurance companies and mortgage companies insist upon certain security
> precautions for ships,

Big time!  I can envision insurance inspectors who make the rounds at
starports, conducting unannounced inspections on policyholders.

> If the 'Alien' from the movie boarded my ship, <snip> Subsequent
> events to be determined by the referee.  :->

I liked the movie, but I always thought the crewmembers of the Nostromo had
way too much trouble getting their act together.

>
> If thieves manage to take control of the ship enough to lift off from
> planet, they'll still have to deal with starport and orbital traffic
> control.  This will include knowing what identifying call sign they are
> assigned, filing a flight plan, and getting clearances.  A docked ship
will
> also have its security system linked to the starport, and if the security
> is triggered at any point, the starport security will immediately be
> alerted.  The thief will still have to somehow evade starport, COACC, and
> Imperial facilities, in most systems.  Think satellites, missiles, deep
> meson guns, and SDBs.

Agreed.  Clearly
Step 5. Getting Away
needs to be included.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:40:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:40:01 -0600
Subject: [TML] Stealing Starships - More
Message-ID: <DAV43jxq6pgtq33Z4WN00012b23@hotmail.com>

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I think Matt has raised good points about the dubious usefulness of =
biometric systems for applications that may have to accessed in vaccuum.

Voice prints may become an even more fussy issue, at least as far as the =
exterior hatch goes.  Not only suit radios - but also atmospheric =
compostion and pressure - can alter the human voice.

Many have raised the point - correctly, it seems to me - that there will =
be different levels of security in place for different environments or =
circumstances, even on the same ship.

The product of security and convenience is a constant.  In other words, =
the more security you have, the less convenience - and vice versa.  For =
this reason, if for no other, there will be different levels of =
security.

I can think of several different circumstances that would all cry out =
for different levels of security:

Grounded (not at a starport) with at least one trusted crewmember =
aboard.
Grounded and unoccupied.
Berthed (at a spaceport) with at least one trusted crewmember aboard.
Berthed and unoccupied.
Underway with no passengers.
Underway with passengers.=20

And since we've come to this juncture - what exactly does an anti-hijack =
program do?  Does it scan boarding passengers for weapons?  Monitor =
patterns of passenger movement for suspicious activity?  Compare facial =
features against a known database of offenders? =20

Is it completely passive? ("Sorry to interrupt Captain but five =
passengers are approaching the bridge with weapons and shaped charges")

Or do automated systems take an active role in defending the ship in the =
event of a hijack? (ZAP "Correction Captain.  Make that four =
passengers." ZAP "Sorry.  Three.")  Perhaps if the vessel is taken and =
the Captain doesn't enter an override command, the A-H program scrams =
the power plant.  Or maybe the ship is experimental, powerful, or =
otherwise very _interesting_ in which case the A-H program decides to =
scuttle in 30 minutes...

I _do_ love to give PCs a deadline.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com




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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I think Matt has raised good points about the =
dubious=20
usefulness of biometric systems for applications that may have to =
accessed in=20
vaccuum.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Voice prints may become an even more fussy issue, at =
least as=20
far as the exterior hatch goes.&nbsp; Not only suit radios - but also=20
atmospheric compostion and pressure&nbsp;- can alter the human=20
voice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Many have raised the point - correctly, it seems to =
me - that=20
there will be different levels of security in place for different =
environments=20
or circumstances, even on the same ship.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The product of security and convenience is a =
constant.&nbsp;=20
In other words, the more security you have, the less convenience - and =
vice=20
versa.&nbsp; For this reason, if for no other, there will be different =
levels of=20
security.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I can think of several different circumstances that =
would all=20
cry out for different levels of security:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Grounded (not at a starport) with at least one =
trusted=20
crewmember aboard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Grounded and unoccupied.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Berthed (at a spaceport) with at least one trusted =
crewmember=20
aboard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Berthed and unoccupied.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Underway with no passengers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Underway with passengers.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>And since we've come to this juncture - what exactly =
does an=20
anti-hijack program do?&nbsp; Does it scan boarding passengers for=20
weapons?&nbsp;&nbsp;Monitor patterns of passenger movement for =
suspicious=20
activity?&nbsp; Compare facial features against a known database of=20
offenders?&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Is it completely passive? ("Sorry to interrupt =
Captain but=20
five passengers are approaching the bridge with weapons and shaped=20
charges")</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Or&nbsp;do automated systems take an active role in =
defending=20
the ship in the event of a hijack? (ZAP "Correction Captain.&nbsp; Make=20
that&nbsp;four passengers." ZAP&nbsp;"Sorry.&nbsp; Three.")&nbsp; =
Perhaps if the=20
vessel is taken and the Captain doesn't enter an override command, the =
A-H=20
program scrams the power plant.&nbsp; Or maybe the ship is experimental, =

powerful, or otherwise very _interesting_ in which case the A-H program =
decides=20
to scuttle in 30 minutes...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I _do_ love to give PCs a deadline.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:texasredshift@hotmail.com">texasredshift@hotmail.com</A></=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 06:46:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:46:59 +0100
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <007701c1da12$42ee6230$8d9493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
> stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
> making MY windows rattle.
>

I want plasma grenades for that....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 06:58:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 01:58:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <003f01c1d9d7$50c1d1c0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402015737.02815a50@pop.wizard.net>

>That sounds like something that troopers would break.
>As in "if you leave three soldiers in the desert with an anvil, and come
>back later, the anvil will be broken. And they won't know how it happened."

I sometimes think the entire purpose of boot camp was to teach me to 
convincingly say, "The private don't know, sir."

ObTrav:  Umm.  I'd better stop posting on this thread because I can't think 
of one.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:15:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 02:15:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
In-Reply-To: <200204012252.DDN03437@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402020141.02817660@pop.wizard.net>

JT Kwon says:
>The problem I have with making corrections/changes/etc to the
>combat system of CT/Book 4 is that it is *very* easy to walk
>off the Cliffs of Complexity.
I agree.  What was most needed when MT came out (still is?) was for someone 
to take all CT rules and carefully synthesize them together into one volume 
to get rid of conflicts, ellipses, bits of char gen that improved one 
career but were still missing from older careers, etc.

That was chiefly what I was looking for in MT.  A revised and smoothly 
functioning CT.  Revised rule systems are all well and good, but I want a 
complete and coherent, nonbuggy, smoothly functioning rule set.

The next thing I was looking for was a lot more detailed world data in the 
Spinward Marches, and possibly noble and other governmental NPCs who run 
the Spinward Marches.  The adventures tended to gloss over a lot of 
stuff.  I realize there are different tastes there.  Some referees dislike 
having it all dictated to them.  I prefer having it all pregenerated for 
me, debugged and consistent with the rest of the universe, and using my own 
preferences and judgment to alter or throw out the stuff that suited me.

The other thing I was looking for was more cool science-fiction gizmos, 
preferably accompanied by really good gizmo illustrations.  Sometimes, one 
picture of ...a grav belt, let's say, is worth a few hundred well-chosen words.

Well before MT was issued, I tried taking Striker, Snapshot, the original 
three LBBs, Mercenary, etc. and reconciling all the weapon ranges and 
damage.  I gave it up for a lost cause.  I would have willingly parted with 
hard-earned cash to pay someone else (like GDW) to do it.

>I am trying to avoid using tables, except a few during
>character generation to come up with your initiative and your
>actions.

Mmmmm, I think well-designed tables with just the right accompanying 
titles, captions, and text blurbs can be extremely valuable.  I'm not shy 
about using them.  Excellent design, excellent writing, and excellent 
layout must all converge when it comes to tables in rule books.  But, 
ideally most of those extra chunks of reference and rule system will be 
modular, so the "nongearhead referee" can dispense with it and run the 
simple version quite easily and happily.  But let's not resurrect that 
debate, please.  Forget I ever mentioned.  This is not the rule-design 
droid you are looking for.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:13:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:13:16 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEFOCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
>
>Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
>stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
>making MY windows rattle.

No, I want the EMP grenade to shut off the cars whose xenon headlights are
blinding me, from behind, even when I've switched my rearview mirror to the
polarized position.  Hell, a parabolic mirror with a computer chip for
aiming would probably be enough to get them to back off.

The weapon I'm trying to figure out is an equalizer for pedestrians.
Anything that will actually stop or otherwise neutralize a moving vehicle
that is about to violate a crosswalk will have a danger space that includes
the pedestrian (like a LAW, M203, Panzerfaust, etc.) at typical engagement
ranges.  Anything safe for the pedestrian will not actually stop the vehicle
before impact -- the .44 magnum will shut down the engine, but the car will
keep on rolling.  Many weapons will neutralize the driver, but again, the
car will keep going.  It's a poser.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:22:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 23:22:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16sHfY-0003IO-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B8CE9C2B.34116%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 10:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that difficult to
> build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate power
> battery.  

I have yet to be convinced that such things will work, and be at all
effective.  Particularly as the  strength of burst will be inversely
proportional to the to the square of the distance.  Has anyone actually seen
a demonstration where this works?  It should be rather easy to test.

Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical martial
arts 'death touch'.
> 
> I've a few comments and questions here:
> 
> 1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this
> shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be
> overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP?

Gauss weapons won't need any complex and delicate circuitry if they're
anything like railguns.  I don't expect them to be vulnerable to EMP anymore
than a 1950s Chevy would be.
> 
> 2) While military equipment wil be shielded, many worlds would
> likely strongly prefer if civilian weapons were not, since having a
> way to stop everyone's guns from working would be a godsend for
> cops (who would presumably also have shielded weapons).
> 
> 3) Even if you don't get the weapons, cutting off someone's comm
> will at least stop them from calling for backup.

Common will certainly be more vulnerable, as will computers.  And the
government better tread lightly before using EMP.  Will hospitals be EMP
proof.  Patients with implants.  What about the impact on civil commerce?
Governments don't exist in vacuo. And count on sophisticated bad guys on
have stuff that's a good as what the cops and the military have, if not
better.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:23:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:23:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEFOCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>
>This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
>There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
>(or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
>sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
>example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.

Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's kind
of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not doing any more
jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the character
becomes motivated to take this one, last job.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:19:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:19:47 +0800
Subject: [TML] F14C Scorpion class light fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEIAEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Having apparently inspired people do do versions of this fighter for other
rules sets. It is about time I posted the original F14C Scorpion.

F14C SCORPION CLASS LIGHT FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION


The F14 Scorpion class of light fighter was at one time the most numerous
light fighter used by the Solomani Confederation. It was still in service in
large numbers with second line Solomani forces up to the final collapse, and
was used both as a subordinate craft on some larger starhips, and as a
planetary based fighter. The -C variant was the most numerous type, the
earlier -A and -B variants having been upgraded to the -C model. The earleri
versions mostly differed in the weaponry fitted.

General Data Displacement: 15 tons  Hull Armour: 40
Length: 15 meters  Volume: 210 cubic meters
Price: MCr22.494663  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 354.6512/318.5954 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 117Mw Fusion Power Plant (117Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (1.315Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 4 (18.25Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 40 , 2.28125 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 9

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 60,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 120,000km
Active EMS (4 hexes; 16.5Mw), 3xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 1xWorkstation

Armament Offensive: 1xTL13 50Mj Laser Lance (Loc: 1/4/5; Arcs 1; 13.889Mw;
No Crew), 4x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 4 7-ton missiles or recce drones

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
50Mj Laser Lance  4:1/5-17  8:1/3-9  16:1-4  32:1-2
-2 Difficulty Levels

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0118 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.5889 Mw)
Crew: 1 (1xManuever/Electronics/Gunner)
Crew Accommodations: 1xWorkstation
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 1.6 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 42 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.173 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  	Systems
1  	1-17:Ant  		1-10:Lance,11-20:Elec  	ELS-1H,
2-3  	Ant  			Elec  			LS-1H,
4-5  	Ant  			Hold  			LT-1H,
6-7  	Ant  			Hold  			Lance-1H,
8-9  	1-4:Ant  		Hold  			PP-1H,
10  	1-3:Hatch  		Qtrs  			All others-(1h),
11-13				Hold
14-15	1-11:Missile  	1-13:Grapple,14-20:Hold
16-17				1-14:Eng,15-20:Hold
20   				Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:19:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:19:49 +0800
Subject: [TML] RF14D Scorpion class light recon fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPEEIAEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

This is the recon version of my F14 Scorpion light fighter.

RF14D SCORPION CLASS LIGHT RECON FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION


The -D variant of the F14 Scorpion is the light reconnaisance version. The
major differenc between the -C and -D versions is the fitting of a more
capable sensor suite in the -D at the expense of most of the fighters
armament. A second workstation has also been provided to share the work load
of the fighter.

General Data Displacement: 15 tons  Hull Armour: 40
Length: 15 meters  Volume: 210 cubic meters
Price: MCr32.006997  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 315.6526/295.4188 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 106Mw Fusion Power Plant (106Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (0.1132Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 4 (16.25Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 42 , 2.03125 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 7

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 120,000km Passive EMS Folding Array (4 hexes; 0.15Mw), 60,000km
Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 300,000km Active EMS (10 hexes;
27.5Mw), TL13 Densitometer (0.9Mw), TL12 Neutrino Sensor (0.01Mw), 3xRunning
Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 2xWorkstations

Armament Offensive: 2x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 2 7-ton missiles or
recce drones

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0124 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.6191 Mw)
Crew: 2 (1xElectronics, 1xManuever/Gunner)
Crew Accommodations: 2xWorkstations
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 0.2 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 42 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.03125 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  	Surface Hits  		Internal Explosion  		Systems
1-5  		Ant  				Elec  				ELS-1H,
6-7  		Ant  				1:Qtrs,2-11:Elec,12-20:Hold  	LS-1H,
8-9,11-13  	Ant  				Hold  				PP-1H,
10  		1-3:Hatch,4-20:Ant  	Qtrs  				AEMS-(2h),
14-15  	1-5:Missile,6-20:Ant  	1-7:Grapple,8-20:Hold  		Neutrino-(2h),
16-17  	1-2:Ant  			1-15:Eng,16-20:Hold  		All others-(1h)
18-19   					1-15:Eng,16-20:Hold
20   						Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 03:34:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Another Power Source For FF&S2?
In-Reply-To: <3CA92F7C.B45F42C3@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402033354.00a72bf0@pop.wizard.net>

John Groth says:
>Should we add chemoelectric potatoes as a power plant option in FF&S2?

Renewable energy that helps out with life support systems.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:31:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:31:01 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> This has driven me to tinker with starship costs quite a lot, trying
> to reduce their value by orders of magnitude.  I still haven't found
> a solution that seems properly balanced.

Do what I did in my GURPS game: make FTL drives cost comparable to
maneuver drives, and let them have a second- (or tenth-) hand ship.
This method should be applicable to Traveller; let's see...


Yes, okay.  If Jump-2 engines for the minimum 100 dton ship cost 1 MCr
instead of 10 MCr, then you can build a Jump-2 starship new for about
2.5 MCr.  Such a design uses primarily water tanks with a small fuel
processor to supplement much smaller LHyd tanks (the minimum needed to
initiate jump, whatever that is IYTU), and downgrades the sensors and
some other nonessential (but expensive) electronics.  With an
acceleration capability of 0.2G loaded, it won't ever land on a planet
but it can carry a shuttle that does.  It will also take about 10
hours to reach a 100D limit.  Of course it has no weapons -- even a
single laser costs a significant proportion of the total value.

If such a ship is in very poor but still serviceable condition, it
might be worth 250 kCr.  Valuable, but hardly an amount you could
retire to an island paradise in luxury for the rest of your life.
Especially if it is divided among 6 PCs :)


A probably unintentional side-effect of having very expensive jump
engines is that a starship owner can afford everything else to be
nearly top-of-the-line without greatly increasing the overall cost.
Slashing jump drive costs means that other cost-saving measures
actually become worthwhile, which (IMO) makes for much more
interesting design choices in the game.

Of course cutting jump drive costs by an order of magnitude means that
interstellar freight costs will be reduced, but not by an order of
magnitude.  Operating costs (crew, port fees, administration overhead,
maintenance) become the dominant factor rather than interest on the
mortgage.  I think I worked out a few years ago that the cost of jump
systems makes up about 60-70% of average freight costs (where are
these things when I need them), so the cost of freight would probably
halve.

There is yet another reason why I might recommend this approach.  If
low-acceleration unarmed merchant ships that have poor sensors and
can't land are common, it makes an excellent excuse for significantly
increased piracy levels around backwater worlds.  Not to mention the
fact that pirates can risk a much smaller monetary investment for
cargo that is still just as valuable as in the "expensive drives"
case.

;^>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:43:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 03:43:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>
References: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402033956.00a76170@pop.wizard.net>

Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...

Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug, 
your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead 
GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is 
despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode of 
eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.

--Laning, Canoneer of God


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:06:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:06:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <003d01c1d9e9$a2218e40$f6b18b90@computer>
References: <20020401200104.BCEA627A48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402034537.00a74010@pop.wizard.net>

Alan Bradley quotes me then asks:
> > From: laning
> > Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no
> > scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the
> > fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world
> > in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL 13
> > COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much less
> > likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.
>
>One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?

Obvious.  Getting into trouble.  The ISS isn't silly enough to send lone 
scouts to planets.  It sends contact teams, survey teams, whatever, but in 
teams.  Um, perhaps his ship is suffering from technical problems and it's 
a forced landing.  He's looking for local help resolving the problem.

And thereby hangs at least a couple of different adventure seeds.  The 
aging ex-scout in a starport bar whose partner went jump mad, did something 
to the nav controls and caused a misjump then committed suicide.  He was 
forced to land on a world whose exact location he was unsure of to seek 
help, the seemingly primitive local chirpers gathered around his ship, then 
he just _knew_ somehow that the ship was fixed.  He reboarded it, it worked 
fine.  Too fine!  It used fuel at one one-hundredth of the normal 
rate!  And he couldn't figure out how or why.  He also just _knew_ what nav 
settings to use to jump back to civilization and didn't think to question 
that, just did it.  When he got back to an ISS base, they told him the 
incident never happened and took the ship away "for repairs".  He was 
abruptly transferred to a training command as an instructor, where they 
spent about one month debriefing him on his experience in great detail.  He 
can't say exactly where that planet was, but he thinks he might remember 
the nav settings he used to jump away from it, and he knows where that jump 
ended.

Or.  Your small scout vessel has just had its fuel purifier go bad and 
you've landed on a TL 6 planet that you were only supposed to orbit.  You 
need to negotiate with the locals for refined fuel.  If you meet with their 
scientists you think you can arrange for them to refine what you need.  But 
you have to get past their military and politicians first.  Several of whom 
think the smart thing to do with an alien spaceship is keep it for 
themselves, but it's locked.  You're starting to think your only chance of 
staying alive for now is to convince them they cannot get inside the ship 
without your help.  Klaatu barada nictu.

Or.  Your tramp trader calls on an out of the way system in hopes of 
selling some chameleon cloth or other gewgaws to the natives, and maybe 
picking up some unique local handiworks that you can sell to archeologists 
when you return to civilization.  Hey, an independent business soph has to 
be creative to stay ahead of the big corporate competition.  So you do a 
few orbital passes while you make a survey.  Never land blindly, not if you 
want to live a long time in this business.  There's a ship down there in 
the jungle.  You get a close up photo image.  It's practically overgrown 
with jungle!  Not enough IR signature to be generating any heat 
internally.  No beacons.  Doesn't respond to any radio hails.  You send the 
ship's boat to investigate.  It's a scout ship, a model that hasn't been in 
common use for about fifteen Imperial years.  There are two skeletons on 
the bridge, visible through the viewport.  If you manage to get past the 
locked outer airlock door,  it will have to be by force.  That's when you 
find more skeletons in the interior corridor adjacent to the 
airlock.  Visible through the viewport again.  If you manage to force your 
way past the inner airlock door, that's when the ship begins to power up 
and various antihijack programs kick in.  You're starting to think you know 
how the skeletons next to the airlock got to be that way.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:20:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:20:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>
References: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>

Anthony Jackson quoted then wrote:
>Matthew Bond writes:
> > One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's
> > at doorlocks etc...
> >
> > How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> > Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior
> > is exposed to Vacuum?
>
>How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use?
>There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
>'security while everyone is away'.

I agree with Matt Bond about avoiding biometrics.

There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example.  Paying 
passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them through the 
passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger areas of the ship.  Each 
keycard is unique to each passenger, and so the same card gets them into 
their own private cabin.  Crew will have similar cards, that give them more 
freedom, and exactly how much and which greater freedoms would depend on 
the crew member's billet.  In a hijack situation, the captain or bridge 
watch officer uses a much higher level of security access to lock down all 
passenger hatchways, among various other security measures  This overrides 
the passenger keycards, of course, and limits crewmember keycards according 
to the specific alert situation.  The higher levels of access can't require 
a physical key because that might not be possible in some emergency 
scenarios.  Thus, it requires more elaborate and closely guarded usernames 
and passwords.

Voice print and/or retina scan _might_ be required for confirmation, but 
only as an additional measure.  Voiceprints are vulnerable to spoofing with 
recordings or even computer-synthesized voices.  Retina scans would only be 
desirable if they can be read through a vacc suit faceplate.  And they 
might be subject to spoofing, as well.  So even these two biometrics would 
probably be ignored by skilled designers of most ship security systems.

The biggest vulnerability is if someone gains knowledge of the captain's 
username and password.  That's why there's an owner's username and password 
that can override even the captain's access level.  In situations where law 
enforcement needs it, they can usually get it from the owner.  Sufficiently 
clever and ruthless hijackers might be able to do so, also.  That would be 
bad.  What provisions can we make for the captain and crew to neutralize 
hijackers who had done that?  Weapons and vacc suits and that's about 
it?  They should start out with physical possession of the bridge and 
engineering, so the hijackers would still have a fight on their hands 
before being able to fly the ship.  Maybe there should be lots of panic 
buttons around the ship.  Break glass and pull handle to start the 
"Emergency, I am being hijacked" beacon.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:29:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
References: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402042211.00a7a020@pop.wizard.net>

Matt Bond asks:
>Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
>kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
>Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Okay, I guess the security override system is composed of very tiny 
computerized access points, networked together.  They normally act as dumb 
workstations for talking to the ship's computer, but in case of network or 
computer problems they can act independent of the ship's computer to let 
stranded people with proper username and password enter the ship safely.

This creates a couple of vulnerabilities, but that is accepted in the name 
of user safety.  Now, would be hijackers only have to spoof the tiny dumb 
workstation computer at one of the access points if they want to board the 
ship.  The workstation knows all the usernames and passwords, although even 
a dumb workstation can be pretty tough to crack heavily encrypted data like 
that.  The hijackers could bring along some smart computer of their own to 
try to crack it.  They could eavesdrop on network traffic between the 
workstation and the ship's computer and crack the username and password 
that way.

Therefore, usernames and passwords are rotated frequently, and the network 
link between the workstation and ship's computer is fiber optic.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:40:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:40:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV58nLJm2ZBNCogiwH0001b30b@hotmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402043102.0280d0f0@pop.wizard.net>

Bill Scheets aka Tex says:
>Agreed.  Clearly
>Step 5. Getting Away
>needs to be included.

And Step 6.  Continuing To Get Away With It The Rest Of Their 
Lives.  Staying in Imperial space, for instance, and having to deal with 
not only transponder IDs, but all kinds of ship's papers and records, 
personal IDs, and all this checked against......databases.

I'm thinking that in Zhodani space, the thieves just have to fool the 
telepathic Thought Police who make routine boarding inspections of all 
docked ships.  And everyone entering the starport has to get past 
telepathic Thought Police at checkpoints.  It's going to be awfully hard to 
get away with this crime there.  But even with this security, the Zhodani 
will probably employ databases and various kinds of ID for ships, ships 
crews, major starship components, and cargos.  As well as the usual logs, 
flight plans, maintenance records, safety inspections, more thorough 
inspections during annual maintenance, yatta yatta yatta.

There's a reason that Vargr space is as disorganized as Traveller indicates 
it is at the governmental level.  Much easier for piracy and other such 
activities in or near Vargr space.  Very convenient for many 
campaigns.  And perhaps we've discovered a way to reconcile the piracy+ 
crowd with the piracy- crowd.  Piracy can be viable, but only in regions 
like the Vargr Extents and other regions of space where governmental 
authority only has a short reach.  Which really just rephrases what some of 
us have been saying for a long time.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:57:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:57:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Stealing Starships - More
In-Reply-To: <DAV43jxq6pgtq33Z4WN00012b23@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402044404.0280ec90@pop.wizard.net>

>And since we've come to this juncture - what exactly does an anti-hijack 
>program do?  Does it scan boarding passengers for weapons?  Monitor 
>patterns of passenger movement for suspicious activity?  Compare facial 
>features against a known database of offenders?
>
>Is it completely passive? ("Sorry to interrupt Captain but five passengers 
>are approaching the bridge with weapons and shaped charges")
>
>Or do automated systems take an active role in defending the ship in the 
>event of a hijack? (ZAP "Correction Captain.  Make that four passengers." 
>ZAP "Sorry.  Three.")  Perhaps if the vessel is taken and the Captain 
>doesn't enter an override command, the A-H program scrams the power 
>plant.  Or maybe the ship is experimental, powerful, or otherwise very 
>_interesting_ in which case the A-H program decides to scuttle in 30 minutes...

Assuming you've paid for a real, live Antihijack program, then the answer 
is it will do any and all combinations of the above, plus a lot of other 
things besides.  You just go to any console that lets you access the user 
interface for your Antihijack program and select any of a number of popular 
default configurations.  Then start customizing it as you desire.  Assuming 
your username and password is authorized.  A significant part of 
configuring its settings is to determine exactly what access and overrides 
each username is granted.  Probably the vendor who sold it to you had an 
installation consultant visit and spend an hour or three until you had at 
least one crew member comfortable with it.  Its capabilities have evolved 
for literally centuries and there are few situations that have not been 
thought of.  The user interface has evolved for a similar period of time 
and is surprisingly intuitive and easy to use.

There would be various hardware extras that you may or may not want to 
install.  You want a flamethrower pointed down the airlock corridor and 
controllable via the Antihijack program?  No problem, we can have it 
delivered and installed in one to three days.  That'll run you extra for 
the hardware, plus an additional installation fee for configuring it 
properly with the software.  Only available where law level permits.  You 
are responsible for showing our salesman all required government permits 
before the sale can be final.  You should check with your liability insurer 
before getting any fixed interior weaponry as it may void your policy or 
require a new rider.  You should also be warned that such riders tend to be 
extremely expensive.  Manufacturer and vendor are in no way liable for 
injuries, death, or property damaged which might involve said flamerthrower.

When a really cheap starship costs tens of millions and most starship types 
cost hundreds of millions, there will be pretty elaborate and effective 
layers of security to prevent loss.  And software applications will have 
been evolved and debugged for hundreds of years, which is a way of thinking 
that most of us on the TML need to consciously force ourselves into because 
we're used to all software being relatively new, somewhat unstable, usually 
a bastard of a user interface, never the same two years in a row, etc.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 10:02:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 05:02:30 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer>
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402045857.02801d60@pop.wizard.net>

Alan Bradley, who has been there and has the tee shirt to prove it, says:
>"Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got a
>harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
>schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a fusion
>reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own army.
>What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania thinks he
>has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us independent
>enclaves to make sure he doesn't."

Perfect, Chairman Laning and his Lanite citizens should find King Bradley 
to be an excellent neighbor and ally.  You're invited to drop over anytime 
for tropical drinks on the veranda.  The dancing girls put on a fine show 
around the bonfire after midnight, it's always a big hit with guests.  Just 
be sure to let us know before heading over, so we can make sure the air 
defense system doesn't do anything rash to your air rafts.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 10:29:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 05:29:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices [was Re: Living...on an
 Airplane]
In-Reply-To: <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>

Tim Little responded to my quest for much cheaper starships with very 
interesting thoughts.  I've had mostly the same ideas, but yours are better 
organized and developed, Tim.  Thanks much.  :->

The two big differences for me would be reducing the overall cost by at 
least two or even three orders of magnitude, and trying to do it so that 
there's still a huge price jump going from nonstarship to starship.

In other words, reduce hull, computer, maneuver, and power plant costs by 
probably two orders of magnitude but jump drives by only one.  Which still 
doesn't work out quite as tidily as I'd like.

I would like it if you could commission say a really nice yacht for 3 
megacredits or less.  Which is still a huge sum of money.  Weaponry and 
shield costs would remain unmodified.  Or a 200-ton free trader for maybe 
just under 1 megacredit, built new.  I don't want to open the rule books 
right now to run the numbers because I'm already way overdue to hit the 
rack and sleep.

One of the problems with the above approach is anyone with good credit and 
a good business plan could build jump-5 or jump-6 ships and they would be 
too common.  Which got me to wondering if I couldn't make the cost for jump 
drives go up proportional to the square of the jump number.  Which in turn 
got to me wondering if it would be a good idea to have the same type of 
relationship for power plants and maneuver drives.  Probably yes to jump 
drives and no to the others.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 10:30:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:30:26 +1200
Subject: [TML] Re: Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331112145.025208a0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020331073926.009f9080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CAA3102.30051.BC0A20@localhost>

On 31 Mar 2002, at 11:29, laning wrote:

> This has led me to wonder if Orthodox Jews ever make it off the planet 
> Earth in the canonical Traveller universe.  Perhaps in low 
> berths?  Probably not.  Would the opportunity to actually meet these 
> foreign people called Orthodox Jews be a tourist attraction when planning 
> to travel to Terra?

To be honest, I don't think Jews (of any ilk) would be all that 
common in the Traveller Universe. There are under 15 million Jews 
worldwide right now (13.6 IIRC) and the faith doesn't encourage 
conversion. I'd say 100 million tops for 1100 Imperial (probably far 
less), mostly clustered on and around Terra. The vast majority of 
Imperial citizens have probably never heard of them. However, I 
would say that they will still be around.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 11:28:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:28:20 +1200
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAA3E94.13432.F10D0B@localhost>

On 1 Apr 2002, at 17:25, John T. Kwon wrote:

> You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles, 
> but they don't have an air force anymore.

We don't actually need an airforce, the 1,800 km moat serves well 
enough unless you're going to bring along an aircraft carrier. And if 
you can bring along an aircraft carrier, we couldn't have stopped 
you anyway.

Vague ObTrav: Think of all the thousands of low to mid population 
worlds. They have no hope of stopping a half serious assault, so 
how are their defence forces structured? A small professional force 
sufficent to deal with casual raiders and to act as a cadre for a 
guerilla resistance until someone comes to their rescue. One to 
three battalions of mobile ground troops and two or three heavy 
fighters should be sufficent.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 11:38:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:38:14 +1200
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185058.00a65e80@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEIGHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

laning wrote :
> JT Kwon wrote:
> >Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
> >
> >You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles,
> >but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up
> >with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right
> >positions in government for the die hards, it might work.
>
> The worst part is it's probably the New Zealanders on
> the list who are laughing the hardest at that.  :->

I thought we wuz included in the "right positions in government
for the die hards" bit ?

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 11:38:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:38:13 +1200
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEIGHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

John Kwon writes
>(Megan Robertson)  says
> >Subject: Re: [TML] room clearing
> >
> >The British Army method is: -
> >
<snip>
> Yes, that's very similar to what was SOP just prior to the
> last technique.  What you describe above is what is known as
> Battle Drill #6.

One assumes all the room clearing techniques being discussed are
for bunkers or concrete buildings of better than average
construction against a well-motivated enemy.

To clear a modern apartment, office or hotel room, stand in the
hallway outside, and spray the room(s) with automatic fire,
remembering to cover the entire wall and especially remembering
to fire at ground level a few times.

Then push the wall over.

Just remember that the wall isn't going to give _you_ any cover
when you start firing either.
<grin>

Oh, and remember to fire in to the air outside the building a few
times first. Based on my observations of most troops and the
majority of civilians, that'll mean they'll be standing in the
windows, looking for where the shots came from.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:02:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:02:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIADJAA.tml@downport.com>

I'm doing some research for a TAS supplement and could use some help with
references. The supplement will be CT, but I'd like to read up on any
reference, in any version, that mentions the TAS.

If you'd like to reply in the thread on the TAS-Net web boards, here is the
thread URL: http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=38. I'll get them all
into the thread, eventually.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
"In conclusion, remember that Traveller
  is a game, and that it goes differently
    for everyone who plays. Bon voyage!"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:14:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:14:25 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <20020402064409.B8250279FA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c1da40$0a82f040$2c5d8690@computer>

> From: JR Holmes 
> This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
> There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
> (or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
> sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
> example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.
> 
> =46rom a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become part
> of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
> destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
> becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.

You evil naughty man...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:12:36 +1000
Subject: [TML] RE: Room Clearing
Message-ID: <001e01c1da40$09e43f40$2c5d8690@computer>

> From: "David & Kristin Larson"
> Flash-bangs are in relatively common use (at least I've had no problem
> getting them from the ASP).

Just last week one of the veterans at work was showing us the scars he got
from a flash-bang that went off too close to him.

He and some other army guys were training with a bunch of cops  (Tactical
Response Group - SWAT types), when one of the cops rolled a flash-bang the
wrong way.  Result:  small but interesting shrapnel wounds.  My friend was
actually behind the guy that took the brunt of the bang, but the grenade had
rolled between his feet, and bounced off a wall before going off.

All of this was apparently rather embarrassing to the people responsible for
organising the exercise.  Fortunately nobody was seriously injured, so their
butts weren't kicked too hard.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:15:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:15:22 GMT
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net> <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3ca99b9a.4755858@post.demon.co.uk>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:

>> >I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air
>force.
>>
(snip)
>
>Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns =
are
>very handy for burglars...

I want an L5 space station, then I can not only declare independence,
but address communications to world leaders as "foolish
Earth-beings!".

And if anybody objects, well, I'm at the top of the gravity well and
there are lots of rocks in space...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 13:12:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:12:18 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net> <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <3ca99b9a.4755858@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <002301c1da48$17342b80$d99593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
>Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are
>very handy for burglars...

I want an L5 space station, then I can not only declare independence,
but address communications to world leaders as "foolish
Earth-beings!".

And if anybody objects, well, I'm at the top of the gravity well and
there are lots of rocks in space...

Excellent! Though sitting out on the Veranda on an evening is a bit
chilly....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:07:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 06:07:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020402140743.71732.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Matthew Bond <mattgbond@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA
> while in space to do some
> kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my
> Airlocks Starport Locking
> Mechanism. How do I get back in?

I don't think it is even that necessary to contrive
the possibility.  I don't think that every port of
call on a vaccuum world is going to pressurize the
landing area.  They may have special vehicles to get
you from your ship to the StarPort, but if they don't,
its into the vacc suit.  Then how do you get back into
your ship?


Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:16:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:16:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <03b401c1da51$0d6c92f0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

I've often through of a bass seeking missle for just such an occasion

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 6:54 PM
Subject: RE: [TML] handy device


> Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
> stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
> making MY windows rattle.
>
> Jesse
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:40 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] handy device
>
>
> They already have something today that will zoom under your
> car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
> even restart).
>
> There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
> a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
> will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
> Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
> go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).
>
> It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
> have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
> left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.
>
> Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:22:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:22:58 EST
Subject: [TML] Malorn Union and Winston Democracy
Message-ID: <a2.235606a8.29db18c2@aol.com>

Can anyone tell me anything about these two pocket states beyond
their names and allegiance codes?

I'm reworking Aldebaran sector for an upcoming GURPS Traveller book.
I need to know how seriously I need to consider leaving these two states
in existence :-). Clearly they aren't canonical in the strict sense of the
word, but if any fans are fond of them I can't be too cavalier about
erasing them. . .

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:40:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 00:40:39 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9C2E7.20705@gmx.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>"MJ Dougherty" says
>
>>I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my 
>>own air force.
>>
>
>Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
>
>You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles, 
>but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up 
>with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right 
>positions in government for the die hards, it might work.
>
Don't laugh... this may have already happened.
-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:34:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:34:38 +0800
Subject: [TML] F17 Starfire class light fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEIFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Just when you thought it was safe, another fighter.

F17 STARFIRE CLASS LIGHT FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION



The F17 Starfire class light fighter was designed at the same time as the
F16 Scimitar class light fighter, with which it shares many components. Not
as fast as the Scimitar, having a maneuver drive capable of 4G compared to
the Scimitars 5G, the Starfire does carry a somewhat heavier armament in the
form of two 50-Mj Laser Lances compared to the Scimitars single.

General Data Displacement: 20 tons  Hull Armour: 50
Length: 16 meters  Volume: 280 cubic meters
Price: MCr25.172723  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 471.972/434.9299 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 151Mw Fusion Power Plant (75.5Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (0.2232Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 4 (23.5Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 41.6 , 2.9375 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 12

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 60,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 120,000km
Active EMS (4 hexes; 16.5Mw), 3xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 2xWorkstations

Armament Offensive: 2xTL13 50Mj Laser Lances (Loc: 2/3; Arcs 1; Loc: 18/19;
Arcs: 5; 13.889Mw each; No Crew), 4x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 4 7-ton
missiles or recce drones

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
50Mj Laser Lance  4:1/5-17  8:1/3-9  16:1-4  32:1-2
-2 Difficulty Levels

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0157 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.7828 Mw)
Crew: 2 (1xManuever/Electronics/Gunner, 1xGunner)
Crew Accommodations: 2xWorkstations
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 0.4 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 56 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.182 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  		Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  	Systems
1  			Ant  			Elec  			LS-2H,
2-3  			1-18:Ant  		1-11:Lance,12-20:Elec  	PP-2H,
4-5  			1-19:Ant  		1-7:Elec,8-20:Hold  	ELS-1H,
6-7  			1-19:Ant  		1:Qtrs,2-20:Hold  	Lance-1H,
8-9,11-13   				Hold  			MD-(2h),
10  			1-2:Hatch  		Qtrs  			All others-(1h),
14-15  		1-10:Missile  	1-10:Grapple,11-14:Eng,15-20:Hold
16-17   					Eng
18-19   					1-11:Lance,12-20:Eng
20   						Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:34:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:34:35 +0800
Subject: [TML] F16 Scimitar class light fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEIFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

F16 SCIMITAR CLASS LIGHT FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION



The Scimitar class light fighter was in widespread service with Solomani
forces, especially second line units, at the start of the Second Solomani
Rim War. As the war progressed Scimitars were gradually pushed into first
line units because of losses of more advanced types.

Somewhat larger than the F14 Scorpion they could not use the launch tubes on
Consort class escort carriers, they were faster than the Scorpions, boasting
a 5G capability.

General Data Displacement: 20 tons  Hull Armour: 60
Length: 16 meters  Volume: 280 cubic meters
Price: MCr25.64925  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 487.4876/456.9102 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 166Mw Fusion Power Plant (83Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (1.1585Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 5 (24.4Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 43 , 3.05 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 11

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 60,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 120,000km
Active EMS (4 hexes; 16.5Mw), 3xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 2xWorkstations

Armament Offensive: 1xTL13 50Mj Laser Lance (Loc: 2/3; Arcs 1; 13.889Mw; No
Crew), 3x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 3 7-ton missiles or recce drones

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
50Mj Laser Lance  4:1/5-17  8:1/3-9  16:1-4  32:1-2
-2 Difficulty Levels

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0148 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.7374 Mw)
Crew: 2 (1xManuever/Electronics, 1xGunner)
Crew Accommodations: 2xWorkstations
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 0.3 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 56 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.342 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  		Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  	Systems
1  			Ant  			Elec  			LS-2H,
2-3  			1-18:Ant  		1-11:Lance,12-20:Elec  	PP-2H,
4-5  			1-19:Ant  		1-7:Elec,8-20:Hold  	ELS-1H,
6-7  			1-19:Ant  		1-2:Qtrs,3-20:Hold  	Lance-1H,
8-9,12-13   				Hold  			MD-(2h),
10  			1-2:Hatch  		Qtrs  			All others-(1h)
11,14-15  		1-5:Missile  	1-5:Grapple,6-20:Hold
16-19   					1-13:Grapple,14-20:Hold
16-19   					1-19:Eng,20:Hold
20   						Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:03:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 08:03:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402033956.00a76170@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>
 <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402080234.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>

At 03:43 AM 4/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
>>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...
>
>Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug, 
>your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead 
>GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is 
>despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode 
>of eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.
>
>--Laning, Canoneer of God

I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.

(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...

100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.


--

Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:05:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:05:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

LOL!!!  That's the other one that my roomies and I thought of as well!  That, and "Too-stupid-to-live" ortillery ;D

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Pratt [mailto:cdpratt@gatecom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 6:17 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] handy device


I've often through of a bass seeking missle for just such an occasion

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:09:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:09:42 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>
 <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020402080234.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9D7C6.8D7E0D48@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 03:43 AM 4/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
> >>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...
> >
> >Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug,
> >your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead
> >GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is
> >despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode
> >of eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.
> >
> >--Laning, Canoneer of God
> 
> I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
> 
> (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> 
> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

All right, I'll take that challenge...

<<paraphrase spoiler space>>












<<paraphrase spoiler space ends>>

Galileo's "Yet it still moves."

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:23:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:23:29 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [TML] [ANNOUNCEMENT] Frontiers PBeM Campaign
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204021821020.168484-100000@svati>

Hi all,

  I'm setting up a PBeM in the Spinward Marches/Trojan Reaches
sectors and are looking for some interested players. More
info can be found by going to the PBeM section on
www.travellercentral.com

Cheers
Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:43:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:43:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] [ANNOUNCEMENT] Frontiers PBeM Campaign
Message-ID: <OF198476A5.770671F6-ON85256B8F.005B7FB4@pheaa.org>








<snip>
  I'm setting up a PBeM in the Spinward Marches/Trojan Reaches
sectors and are looking for some interested players.
</snip>

I would like to play. i cant check traveller central from work so could you
let me know what version of traveller you will be using? will the gm be
making Pre-generated chars? if not can we request a pre generated char?

thanks

Bill






From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:04:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:04:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] room clearing
References: <200203312207.DBP01462@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401224917.01b08448@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3CA9E49E.50806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:

> Flash bangs are also quite dangerous in confined spaces.  The big 
> difference between that and fragmentation grenade is lack of 
> fragmentation in the Flashbang.  You still have about the same amount of 
> explosive material.

Yep, and they're powerful, too. There was a police raid on a house a 
good 90-100 yards away from our house. They tossed a fb in the front 
door of the place. The boom rattled the windows in OUR house, and was 
loud enough, I started looking for which next-door neighbor's furnace 
exploded.

Moreover, the windows were rattled hard on the side of our house *away* 
from the raid, which had the bulk of three houses between us and the 
explosion.

I can't imagine what it was like *inside* that room.
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:04:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:04:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
Message-ID: <200204021704.DEX06493@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>
>(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
>
>100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
>
galileo
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:11:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:11:27 +0200
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIADJAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIADJAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020402191127.6b66c4f3.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Swordy wrote:
> I'm doing some research for a TAS supplement and could use some help
with
> references. The supplement will be CT, but I'd like to read up on any
> reference, in any version, that mentions the TAS.
> 
> If you'd like to reply in the thread on the TAS-Net web boards, here is
the
> thread URL: http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=38. I'll get them
all
> into the thread, eventually.

Wouldn't this make for an excellent GT supplement as well? That way, it
might even see print...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:14:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16sHfY-0003IO-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017767692.2225.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
>
> 1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this 
> shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be 
> overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP? 

The shielding necessary to protect a gauss rifle from its own operation will
shield from levels of EMP that aren't lethal to humans at short range.
> 
> 2) While military equipment wil be shielded, many worlds would 
> likely strongly prefer if civilian weapons were not, since having a 
> way to stop everyone's guns from working would be a godsend for 
> cops (who would presumably also have shielded weapons).  

And, for various reasons, unshielded weapons will be very unpopular, since EMP
devices are nowhere difficult enough to build for only the cops to have them. 
Any world with a law level high enough to want all weapons to be unshielded
probably also has a law level high enough not to permit civilian ownership of
gauss or energy weapons, and a CPR gun with non-electronic sights is immune to
EMP at levels that won't kill humans. 
> 
> 3) Even if you don't get the weapons, cutting off someone's comm 
> will at least stop them from calling for backup.

True, though lasercomms and burst transmitters can be shielded fairly easily. 
A conventional radio would be hard to shield.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:17:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:17:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017767869.7543.ajackson@ping>

Matthew Bond writes:

> Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
> kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
> Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Ok, we're talking once in a hundred year scale accidents here, so we don't
worry about it.  However, most likely the scout left the door open, making the
issue moot.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:26:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:26 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <memo.187211@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3CA9E49E.50806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Greetings dear hearts.

I've been on the receiving end of a flash-bang, fortunately while standing 
outside in the dark, and that's quite enough, thank you!

I couldn't see a thing for quite some time.

The odd thing was, I issued a challenge in what to me was just a random 
direction, and managed to draw a bead on the fellow who chucked it. I 
never did let on to him that I hadn't somehow spotted him... just adds to 
the legend :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:28:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:28:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
Message-ID: <20020402.093118.-186857.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


> Douglas Berry says
> >
> >(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> >
> >100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
> >
>  

"We look for things to make us go" ??? ST:TNG

Turokan

.--.   ...       .----   .----   -....   ---...   ----.       ..      
.--   ..   .-..   .-..       .--   .-   .-..   -.-       -...   .   ..-. 
 ---   .-.   .       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..       ..  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   .-   -.   -..       ---   ..-.       -
  ....   .       .-..   ..   ...-   ..   -.   --.   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:40:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:40:40 +0200
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
References: <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020402194040.7979a578.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Of course all the Major races evolved on Earthlike worlds... Its had to
> develop a spacefaring civilisation then there is a kilometres thick ice
> sheet between you and the stars (not that you'd even know they
existed...)

That is a point I hadn't thought of...

*sound of head hitting table repeatedly*

Combined with Doug's idea of psionic lifeforms, this might be really
interesting.

Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world under
the ice.

Off course, the Zhodani might be aware of such a race (since they have
both better defense against psionics and use robots heavily)...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:40:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Classic Traveller)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:40:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <20020402191127.6b66c4f3.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>

When it is completed I will publish it in PDF. That way it will definitely
see print "see print", if it is worth the paper to print it on ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Jens Rydholm

Swordy wrote:
> I'm doing some research for a TAS supplement and could use some help with
> references. The supplement will be CT, but I'd like to read up on any
> reference, in any version, that mentions the TAS.
>
> If you'd like to reply in the thread on the TAS-Net web boards, here is
the
> thread URL: http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=38. I'll get them
all
> into the thread, eventually.

Wouldn't this make for an excellent GT supplement as well? That way, it
might even see print...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:43:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:43:36 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <18.1cd71567.29db47c8@aol.com>

--part1_18.1cd71567.29db47c8_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 02/04/02 02:10:20 GMT Daylight Time, 
mattgbond@ntlworld.com writes:


> One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at
> doorlocks etc...
> 
> How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior 
> is
> exposed to Vacuum?
> 
> Not many...
> 
> Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by
> being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a 
> recording
> being played over radio)
> 
> I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices
> relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad 
> ID
> number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the
> card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you
> have access to your account.
> 
> After all, you want security to stop casual access to secure areas, but not
> so secure that it inhibits routine or emergency access.
> 
> Matt
> 

Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs 
starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're 
borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.

The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not to 
let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can probably 
see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information than 
you wish to give out.

If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems for 
opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch 
then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to a 
specialist lock-smith.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_18.1cd71567.29db47c8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 02:10:20 GMT Daylight Time, mattgbond@ntlworld.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at<BR>
doorlocks etc...<BR>
<BR>
How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit<BR>
Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior is<BR>
exposed to Vacuum?<BR>
<BR>
Not many...<BR>
<BR>
Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by<BR>
being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a recording<BR>
being played over radio)<BR>
<BR>
I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices<BR>
relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad ID<BR>
number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the<BR>
card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you<BR>
have access to your account.<BR>
<BR>
After all, you want security to stop casual access to secure areas, but not<BR>
so secure that it inhibits routine or emergency access.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.<BR>
<BR>
The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not to let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can probably see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information than you wish to give out.<BR>
<BR>
If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems for opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to a specialist lock-smith.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_18.1cd71567.29db47c8_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:46:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:46:30 EST
Subject: [TML] Questions, questions
Message-ID: <102.1302b0d5.29db4876@aol.com>

1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to 
remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible

2) Can Hivers hold their breath?

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:51:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:51:40 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
> First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might
be.
> Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in
the
> game universe are - IMO - dubious.

My main aim isn't to recreate the original Traveller sequence. If I'd
wanted that, I'd just use it instead of First In  ;-)

However, I want roughly the same spread of intelligent races as in typical
SF, ie the most common environment for sentinent life to evolve in is on
Earthlike worlds.

I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might look
under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary after a
while.

While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
function using radically different biochemistries?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:11:03 -0800
Subject: [TML] Traveller PBeMs
Message-ID: <B8CF3437.341C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Just checking back with everyone on the list.

If you are running a Traveller PBeM and want to advertise it, please drop me
a not.  I'm trying to get a lists of all Traveller PBeM posted to
TravellerCentral.

Thanks
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:27:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:27:36 +0100
Subject: [TML] Classic Traveller GM Screen
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020322222704.00b6d1b0@192.168.0.1>
 <3CA6EBDE.4F036886@virgin.net> <200203310632250552.5A478B7C@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CA9F818.C7735816@virgin.net>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 3/31/2002 at 10:58 AM Si wrote:
>
> >Guys ('n' gals),
> >
> >I am currently using the Judges Guild CT Referee's screen (the 4 page,
> >double-sided dark green one with the chunky writing - if there is more than
> >one).  As it is now getting on quite a bit (I am sure it must be well over 20
> >years old now, an age that most of us can only vaguely remember) and stuck
> >together with sellotape that is older than all 3 of my kids put together, i
> >would really like to print off a good version and get it laminated so i can
> >enjoy it for another 20+ years.  The problem is, i can't manage to scan a
> >decent copy and i don't want to photocopy it as i would ideally like an
> >electronic version I can manipulate a bit beforehand.
> >
> >does anyone on the TML have a decent electronic copy of this screen that they
> >could send me, or know how i can get a decent scan of it?
>
> Wait just a bit and you can have a brand new one!
>
> We (QLI) have a CT screen ready to go as soon as we print T20 (yeah yeah I know about the delays *grin*). The new screen is based in part on the original JG screen (we bought out the rights to the old JG Traveller material awhile back).
>
> Hunter

There is only so long i can wait dude

;-)

Seriously though, I intend to get the T20 stuff anyway, but i also want the original CT screen so i can run nostalgia games.

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:29:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:29:35 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: Accents and Bonuses
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020331073926.009f9080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9F88F.5EF04DC9@virgin.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 01:06 AM 3/31/02 -0800, you wrote:
> > >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> >
> > >How do you use the elevators?  You can't press the buttons on
> > >the Sabbath, nor can you ask someone to press your floor.
> >
> >The stairs you should take.  God forbid your heart should take that day off,
> >too.
>
> A solution if you have a room on the second or third floors..
>
> ObTrav: A ship crewed by Orthodox Jews sets up so they will spend Passover
> in jump.  They misjump, and come out of jump way early, on a course to hit
> something large and fatal.  Your characters are passengers on said
> ship..  Much fun happens.
>
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

Doubt it, you can break nearly every single law in order to save life (apart from
the total ban on cannibalism, murder and incest - i think)

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:47:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:47:55 -0700
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
>>This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
>>First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might
> 
> be.
> 
>>Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in
> 
> the
> 
>>game universe are - IMO - dubious.
> 
> 
> My main aim isn't to recreate the original Traveller sequence. If I'd
> wanted that, I'd just use it instead of First In  ;-)
> 
> However, I want roughly the same spread of intelligent races as in typical
> SF, ie the most common environment for sentinent life to evolve in is on
> Earthlike worlds.
> 
> I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might look
> under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary after a
> while.
> 
> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
> function using radically different biochemistries?

Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
reprinted in various places.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:52:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:52:24 -0700
Subject: [TML] Questions, questions
References: <102.1302b0d5.29db4876@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9FDE8.10303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to 
> remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible

Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's 
ridiculous as well. Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens, 
H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.

A more logical explanation would be that Gramps took H. hablis, geneered 
the species into H. sap, and re-seeded Terra, as well as Zhodane and 
Vland (and all the other planets) with the new species.

Would explain some of the more puzzling aspects of our evolution...

> 2) Can Hivers hold their breath?

Hold one under water and see...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:57:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 10:57:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <18.1cd71567.29db47c8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008701c1da78$3e3cfec0$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Tuesday, April 02, 2002 9:43 AM
CHam628781@aol.com said,

> Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs
> starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're
> borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.
>
> The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not
to
> let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can
probably
> see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information
than
> you wish to give out.

Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power
biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.  If the
security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.

> If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems
for
> opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch
> then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to
a
> specialist lock-smith.

If there is a mechanical system for opening the door than it comes down to
cutting the power to the doors locking mechanism so that you can operate the
manual.  This usually wouldn't be too difficult.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"I do not fear computers.  I fear the lack of them." -Isaac Asimov


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 19:13:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:13:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> from "laning" at Apr 02, 2002 05:29:18 AM
Message-ID: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>

Laning writes:
> One of the problems with the above approach is anyone with good credit and 
> a good business plan could build jump-5 or jump-6 ships and they would be 
> too common.  Which got me to wondering if I couldn't make the cost for jump 
> drives go up proportional to the square of the jump number.  Which in turn 
> got to me wondering if it would be a good idea to have the same type of 
> relationship for power plants and maneuver drives.  Probably yes to jump 
> drives and no to the others.

I've always wondered why ships cost so much, particularly given
the degree of automation & robot labor which ought to be available.
And the idea for starting the cost low and then going up exponentially
based on the range of jump seems like a good one, but it needs to be
justified somehow. It seems to me that in a setting where energy costs
plummet to near zero (due to access to fusion), and where labor costs
plummet to near zero (due to massive use of robotics), you end up with
an economic framework (at least at the higher tech levels) where the
only stuff that really costs a great deal of money are status items
(priced high due to cost of advertising), new technologies (due to
cost of unamortized designer hours), and rare materials (priced high
due to rarity). In terms of starships, particularly for designs which
have been around for centuries, the only one of these factors that
holds up is the rare materials factor. Hence, lanthanum comes to mind.

So making the most expensive item of a starship the jump grid makes a
certain amount of economic sense, and making the price increase
exponentally due to the necessary "density" of the grid also makes
sense. Nonetheless, it seems like a bit of an extreme proposition to
say that lanthanum costs as much as it must in order for starships to
work out as expensive as they are in Traveller. All, IMHO. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 19:21:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:21:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017775268.4978.ajackson@ping>

jimv writes:
> 
> I've always wondered why ships cost so much, particularly given
> the degree of automation & robot labor which ought to be available.

Well, you do realize that traveller starships are huge.

Basically, ships have to be expensive or you run into problems with the
economics of the setting.  If you want cheaper ships, I'd reduce the minimum
size of jump-capable ships below 100 dtons.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 19:57:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam Draper)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:57:34 -0700
Subject: [TML] Making FFS2 more like High Guard
In-Reply-To: <20020402170616.65F2C279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGAEAICFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>

I written some rules in an attempt to make FFS2 a little simpler to use.
The system covers TL 11-15, and displacements of between 10 and 1,000.
Larger ships would not be difficult to add, except that I did not want to
include all of the appropriately enormous sensors and weapons.  Mass and
surface area are not used for the most part, although they could be added
easily in optional rules.  If anyone would like to take a look, my webpage
can be found at www.lansrc.com/~draper/nsds.  I would appreciate any
suggestions or comments you might have.

Thanks,

Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:09:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:09:16 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <12d.f1855a6.29da07cd@aol.com>
References: <12d.f1855a6.29da07cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020402200916.0b4f8c3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> This is unlikely since the complexity of the ecosystem is likely to be 
> related to the available food sources at the bottom of the food chain.
These 
> will be severely limited on an Ice ball, even an old one. Hence the easy
way 
> round the problem is to cap the positive modifiers available for
non-ocean 
> worlds. I'd suggest +6 is a suitable number, altough I'm not an expert
on 
> First In so other numbres might be more suitable. 

A +6 modifier makes it impossible for complex animals to evolve under the
ice, although simple animals are still possible. Simpler lifeforms remain
rather common (37% of all icy rockballs with subsurface oceans get some
form of life).

I like this. I'll keep it for MTU.

After playing around with some modifiers for the other world types, I
finally found numbers I feel good about:

Additions to Step 15
====================
Age bonus for icy rockballs limited to +6
-5 for nitrogen worlds
-3 for ammonia worlds

This gives the following results:

Spread of complex life over all worlds in the TU
================================================
Subgiant :  1.4%
Nitrogen : 22.2%
Ammonia  : 18.7%
Desert   : 19.6%
Icy sub. :  0.0%
Earthlike: 38.1%

Chance of complex life on a world of a given type
=================================================
Subgiant :  6.3%
Nitrogen :  8.4%
Ammonia  :  7.7%
Desert   :  6.8%
Icy sub. :  0.0%
Earthlike: 77.2%

(the above data was collected from a large dataset)

I'll probably keep these numbers. In any case, the modifiers are included
in my program now, which means that the script on my webpage behaves
accordingly.

If there is enough interest, I could easily put up a script for the
unmodified rules as well.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:15:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:15:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] test (sorry)
In-Reply-To: <20020402200916.0b4f8c3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIKDJAA.tml@downport.com>

testing FROM



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:18:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:18:46 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402151321.02829d40@pop.wizard.net>

>JimV says:
<<<snip>>>
>So making the most expensive item of a starship the jump grid makes a
>certain amount of economic sense, and making the price increase
>exponentally due to the necessary "density" of the grid also makes
>sense. Nonetheless, it seems like a bit of an extreme proposition to
>say that lanthanum costs as much as it must in order for starships to
>work out as expensive as they are in Traveller. All, IMHO. -Jim

I agree.  Plus, I think jump grids are supposed to canonically always have 
the same density regardless of jump number.  I suppose we could charge a 
lot more for zuchai crystals.  A particular piece of canon I've always been 
too embarrassed to throw at my players.  I keep trying to promote Traveller 
as a relatively 'hard SF' game.  Whether it is hard, semirigid, or soft, 
zuchai crystals seem to drop it down to the level of camp, soft SF occupied 
by original Star Trek.

And I still have the problem of making hulls, manuever drives, power 
plants, and computers priced exponentially higher as their capability go 
up.  (Well, exponent of capability would be one factor in the equation.  It 
wouldn't be a raw relationship because that would make jump-6 or 
maneuever-6 just too expensive.)

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:24:03 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [TML] [ANNOUNCEMENT] Frontiers PBeM Campaign
In-Reply-To: <OF198476A5.770671F6-ON85256B8F.005B7FB4@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204022222490.168484-100000@svati>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, William Lane wrote:

><snip>
>  I'm setting up a PBeM in the Spinward Marches/Trojan Reaches
>sectors and are looking for some interested players.
></snip>
>
>I would like to play. i cant check traveller central from work so could you
>let me know what version of traveller you will be using? will the gm be
>making Pre-generated chars? if not can we request a pre generated char?
>

The game will be using GURPS with som modifications. There are some
pre-generated characters available, and I can also generated characters
according to your wishes. Just ask :-)

Cheers
Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:28:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:28:40 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <001f01c1d9c8$14f2af20$629193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <052601c1da84$f9e24b60$1f9e15ac@warrior>

surely you've heard of Sealand then :)

http://www.sealandgov.com/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)


>
> >
> > My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a
> > twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.
> >
> >
>
> I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air
force.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:26:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:26:17 +0000
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
Message-ID: <F150I5MQ8S8M30TqD1C000114f8@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
Cavalry.
     Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?
     Thanks in advance.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S. BTW, I'm recently back from a long business trip to Venezuela.  For 
those of you keeping score at home, you can now add Venezuela to the 
"Circling The Bowl" column of your nation/state scoresheets.  Indonesia and 
Zimbabwe may have had a head start, but Venezuela is coming up on the rail 
very quickly!


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:30:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:30:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017775268.4978.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402152005.027e07c0@pop.wizard.net>

Anthony Jackson writes:
>Well, you do realize that traveller starships are huge.
>
>Basically, ships have to be expensive or you run into problems with the
>economics of the setting.  If you want cheaper ships, I'd reduce the minimum
>size of jump-capable ships below 100 dtons.

I thought of that, but have three problems there.

First, it's highly unlikely tiny starships will be able to support 
themselves.  They'll be _somewhat_ cheaper to construct, but still probably 
greater than 10 megacredits, but maintenance and operations will eat the 
owner alive.

The price reduction isn't enough for purposes of MTU.

I'd like to see large starships be more practicable for governments, 
corporations, and individuals to own.  Not just make it possible for people 
of more limited means to acquire the starship equivalent of a Volkswagen 
bug or a Hyundai.

It seems to me cost of starship _should_ be driven not primarily by size of 
hull but the aggregation of components in it.  It should be possible to 
construct the equivalent of a tramp coastal freighter significantly less 
than one megacredit.  It will have bare bones navigation and maneuever 
ability, just enough to enable it to get various operating permits and just 
enough to qualify for insurance at fairly cheap rates.  If the owner(s) 
prosper, then they can upgrade and rebuild key components.  Bridge and 
electronics, drives and power plant.  But that is what starts to cost.  And 
weapon prices should remain unchanged from canon, by and large.

All of this is just _a_ Traveller universe I'd like to run.  I don't 
seriously propose it as a change to canon.  Although, hmmm maybe.  Maybe it 
would be nice to see alternate price rules offered in the books to referees 
who desire the same sort of game effects I'm talking about.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:28:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:28:12 -0700
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices
References: <ML-2.3.1017775268.4978.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CAA145C.2030502@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> jimv writes:
> 
>>I've always wondered why ships cost so much, particularly given
>>the degree of automation & robot labor which ought to be available.
> 
> 
> Well, you do realize that traveller starships are huge.

Traveller starships are vessels of a magnitude somewhere between a C5 or 
Boeing 767 and a medium sized freighter, neither of which is cheap.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:33:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:33:08 -0600
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
References: <F150I5MQ8S8M30TqD1C000114f8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAA1584.37136E3E@premier.net>


"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the
> kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal,
> pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard
> Cavalry.

According to GT:BtC, the kian is native to Prilissa (3035 Trin's Veil)
[page 121].

I don't know of kian stats in any game system.

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:41:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:41:28 +0100
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>
Message-ID: <005101c1da86$d5f683e0$5d9493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Wouldn't this make for an excellent GT supplement as well? That way, it
> might even see print...
>
>
>

You could pitch it to Quiklink as part of the PDF line supporting
T20/CT.....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:44:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:44:18 +0000
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
Message-ID: <F127LDp7mvjkO22ZhCl0000dc60@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?"


Mr. Kwon,

     Robots IMTU are little more than mobile, expert systems.  A pretty lame 
take on the subject, but creativity isn't one of my strong suits.
     The more robots deal with humans or operate within a general human 
setting, the more likely they'll be the upright, bipedal, anthromorphic 
robots of classic sci-fi.  A two-legged, vaguely human shaped, robot with 
arms and hands will be preferred as a steward or medic by most folks over a 
metal box on treads with tentacles.  Robots with "hands" will also be able 
to use the same utensils and tools the rest of the crew uses.
     Robots in industrial settings will be far less anthromorphic, in those 
settings function will drive form.
     The inclusion of the robot operations skill in later CT seemed to 
support my take on the subject.  While anyone could "use" a robot for simple 
purposes, only skilled operators could make full use of a robot's programmed 
skill set.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:51:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:51:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402152005.027e07c0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017780666.495.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> 
> I thought of that, but have three problems there.
> 
> First, it's highly unlikely tiny starships will be able to support 
> themselves.  They'll be _somewhat_ cheaper to construct, but still probably
>  greater than 10 megacredits, but maintenance and operations will eat the 
> owner alive.

Merchant ships pretty much need to be several tens of megacredits to have any
chance of business survival anyway.  The economics of scale at the low end are
too large.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:45:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:45:37 +1000
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices [was Re: Living...on an Airplane]
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> In other words, reduce hull, computer, maneuver, and power plant
> costs by probably two orders of magnitude but jump drives by only
> one.  Which still doesn't work out quite as tidily as I'd like.

That would start to eat into my suspension of disbelief,
unfortunately.  I would expect a spaceship the size of a small mansion
to cost at least a similar amount, and probably quite a bit more.
After all, a planet-based house doesn't have to protect you against
solar flares, vacuum, extremes of heat and cold, or move at thousands
of kilometres per second.


> I would like it if you could commission say a really nice yacht for 3 
> megacredits or less.  Which is still a huge sum of money.

Well, you can think of a 100 dton spaceship as being about the volume
of 100-foot luxury yachts, which apparently have a price tag of a few
million US dollars.  I don't think a spacecraft should cost a lot
less; quite the reverse.


>  Weaponry and shield costs would remain unmodified.  Or a 200-ton
> free trader for maybe just under 1 megacredit, built new.

My figures get close to this *without* a jump drive, at 1.5 MCr.  I
get jump-1 engine plus minimum fuel at 1.4 MCr, so getting close.


> Which got me to wondering if I couldn't make the cost for jump
> drives go up proportional to the square of the jump number.

IMO, they ought to.  Supposedly, the difficulty of building jump
drives with successive capabilities increases per *tech level*, so it
must be greatly more difficult.  At least comparable to the difference
between prop-driven craft and jets, for every jump number increase.

If you're fiddling with the figures, a doubling of cost per unit
volume each jump number wouldn't be out of line IMO.  That could give
a jump engine cost for a 200 dton ship of 1.2 MCr for jump-1, up to
140 MCr for jump-6. These figures would be in CrImp, not local
currency.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:49:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:49:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sW9A-0001AK-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> on 4/1/02 10:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com
> wrote: > > I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that
> difficult to > build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate
> power > battery.  
> 
> I have yet to be convinced that such things will work, and be at all
> effective.  Particularly as the  strength of burst will be inversely
> proportional to the to the square of the distance.  Has anyone
> actually seen a demonstration where this works?  It should be rather
> easy to test.
> 
> Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical
> martial arts 'death touch'.

Look at the article about them in the New Scientist of July 1, 2000

or look at

www.infowar.com/mil_c4i/mil_c4i8.html-ssi 
www.dallas.net/~pevler/jec.htm 
www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/ news/RFWeap.htm 

or look up flux compressors

The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures 
I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius 
kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:50:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:50:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I keep looking at the p-H3 reaction, and although it has a 
high hurdle for starting, it yields more energy per unit 
fuel, and is aneutronic.

Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
doesn't seem to be that hard to find.

It looks like you could build a much smaller H3 fusion 
reactor, not just from the standpoint of overall yield per 
unit fuel, but also because no energy would be wasted 
accelerating neutrons (70% of the D-T cycle is neutron 
energy), and there would be no need to have neutron 
shielding.  I can almost see the argument that the only way 
to get a "tabletop" fusion reactor would be to run it on H3.

Looking for a handwave for H3 reactors...

If you were suddenly able to take a TL15 (CT High Guard) 
powerplant, and say that an H3 reactor for the same output 
had a displacement 70% less...  the fuel consumption would 
also be smaller...  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:57:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:57:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017784677.311.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> I keep looking at the p-H3 reaction, and although it has a 
> high hurdle for starting, it yields more energy per unit 
> fuel, and is aneutronic.
> 
> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.

Well, it has essentially no natural abundance on earth, since most helium on
earth, IIRC, comes from alpha decay.  Aside from this problem, D-He3 is
considered a promising second-generation fusion fuel (p-He3 is much harder to
pull off, and no more useful).
> 
> It looks like you could build a much smaller H3 fusion 
> reactor, not just from the standpoint of overall yield per 
> unit fuel, but also because no energy would be wasted 
> accelerating neutrons (70% of the D-T cycle is neutron 
> energy), and there would be no need to have neutron 
> shielding.  I can almost see the argument that the only way 
> to get a "tabletop" fusion reactor would be to run it on H3.

You'll still get a significant chunk of high energy radiation.
> 
> Looking for a handwave for H3 reactors...
> 
> If you were suddenly able to take a TL15 (CT High Guard) 
> powerplant, and say that an H3 reactor for the same output 
> had a displacement 70% less...  the fuel consumption would 
> also be smaller...  

TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.  One
assumes the neutron problems have been solved.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:04:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:04:52 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sWO7-0004I7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:

> I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
> 
> (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> 
> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

In Jeopardy mode:

Heretics for 100: Who is Galileo

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:22:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:22:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sleeping In Starports, without Jimmy Hoffa
Message-ID: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.sleepinginairports.net/airports.htm

I remember (or my back remembers) sleeping in the airport at 
Frankfurt, waiting for a morning flight.

I suppose that the orbital facility might frown on this, 
considering that I would not only be taking up space, but 
breathing the air as well.

One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the 
price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial 
cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very 
much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be 
possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for 
mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the 
fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator 
runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to 
ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of 
the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.  The 
same device could also be used in recycling to return 
anything to its component atoms.

So, is that how the recycler works on the ship?  Is there 
some plasma separator in there, and it's all reduced to 
whatever the ship's environmental controls are interested 
in?  Dump the other ions into space?

Nice place for the Jimmy Hoffas of the future...

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:27:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:27:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16sW9A-0001AK-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B8CF6F3E.3427B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 1:49 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>> Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical
>> martial arts 'death touch'.
> 
> Look at the article about them in the New Scientist of July 1, 2000
> 
> or look at
> 
> www.infowar.com/mil_c4i/mil_c4i8.html-ssi
> www.dallas.net/~pevler/jec.htm
> www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/ news/RFWeap.htm
> 
> or look up flux compressors
> 
> The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures
> I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius
> kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.

Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find anything.  OK,
I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite terrorist building
these?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:43:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tim Little wrote:
>laning wrote:
> > In other words, reduce hull, computer, maneuver, and power plant
> > costs by probably two orders of magnitude but jump drives by only
> > one.  Which still doesn't work out quite as tidily as I'd like.
>
>That would start to eat into my suspension of disbelief,
>unfortunately.  I would expect a spaceship the size of a small mansion
>to cost at least a similar amount, and probably quite a bit more.
>After all, a planet-based house doesn't have to protect you against
>solar flares, vacuum, extremes of heat and cold, or move at thousands
>of kilometres per second.

Yes, but it's also the same size as a big quonset hut used as a storage 
shed and the hull doesn't need to cost a whole lot more.  In fact, given 
manufacturing capabilities of TTL 12+ industrial worlds, it may well cost 
less, complete with being airtight, radiation proof, and bracing sufficient 
to hold up against maneuvering stresses.

> > I would like it if you could commission say a really nice yacht for 3
> > megacredits or less.  Which is still a huge sum of money.
>
>Well, you can think of a 100 dton spaceship as being about the volume
>of 100-foot luxury yachts, which apparently have a price tag of a few
>million US dollars.  I don't think a spacecraft should cost a lot
>less; quite the reverse.
But the absolute cheapest spacecraft, with hardly yacht-like standards of 
creature comforts or other furnishings, costs about ten times what earth 
yachts cost.



> >  Weaponry and shield costs would remain unmodified.  Or a 200-ton
> > free trader for maybe just under 1 megacredit, built new.
>
>My figures get close to this *without* a jump drive, at 1.5 MCr.  I
>get jump-1 engine plus minimum fuel at 1.4 MCr, so getting close.

Which edition of Traveller rules are you going by?  I think we're talking 
apples and oranges to each other.

LBB 2 says 10 megacredits for the smallest jump drive.  I only have first 
edition (buggy) High Guard, and can't find _either_ of my MT Referee's 
Manuals.  My preferred ship construction rules are MT, since they're all 
together in one place, I like the fuel consumption better, I like being 
forced to balance both mass and volume, and I like Agility.  TNE's FFS goes 
way too far for me in complexity and is only rewarding for plucking certain 
components out of, not when building entire ships (IMHO).  T4's ship design 
rules...the less said, the better.  Although I intend to buy pieces of GT, 
ship construction isn't one of them.

I'd like to use MT rules, but don't have access to them.  IIRC, MT ship 
construction costs were very much in line with LBB 2 costs in most 
situations.  A little bit cheaper if you were going with minimum 
configurations, but not a lot.  I won't use the first edition High Guard in 
this discussion, since we all know they required major revision.  I think 
the standard free trader had major volume discounts etc. and MT sold it for 
something under 25 (?) megacredits because of its standardization.

Costs for the major components of an LBB 2 minimum configuration 200-ton 
ship follow.
200t hull:  8 megacredits
Type A power plant:  8 megacredits
Type A maneuver drive:  4 megacredits
Type A jump drive:  10 megacredits
Model 1 computer with no software:  2 megacredits
Total so far:  32 megacredits

No matter how cheap the hull for the above gets, the other major components 
are going to be a minimum of 24 megacredits.  <Doctor Evil voice> That's 
twenty-four _million_ of your Imperial credits. </Doctor Evil voice>  LOL.

Actually, LBB 2 sells a 200t hull at major discount for standardization, 
along with five other hull sizes.  "Custom" hull sizes are priced at 
cr100,000 per ton.

I'd like to see a 200-dt cost, for example, cr400,000, and the cost of the 
entire rest of a complete ship that's mostly just empty hull for cargo 
space add up to around another cr400,000.  Even then, a PC or group of PCs 
who are able to sell a ship for approaching 1 megacredit can almost run 
amok through the shopping lists for everything else they want.  I can see 
major discounts for buying/selling used, but I'm not comfortable going 
along with buying an old but still serviceable ship for one-tenth of 
original price.  If it's still serviceable, it shouldn't get lower than 
one-quarter of original price.  The only exception would be if a major 
component is likely to need replacing within the next year, that would 
greatly lower the cost.

I like the idea of hulls being the biggest expense in building a low-cost 
ship but I'm still looking at reducing their cost by an order of magnitude 
compared to LBB 2.  Once you buy a hull in decent condition, with a 
lanthanum jump grid, it is an attractive notion that the other components 
can be upgraded (or downgraded) over time.  Without requiring a sum equal 
to the GDP of some Third World countries.

I can rewrite prices to get pretty close to the effect I'm looking 
for.  But that would be inconvenient for my players.  The elegant (or is it 
lazy?) solution would be to tell players to just shift the decimal one or 
two places for each of the major starship components.  That way they could 
look at their rule book during the design sequence and not have to do a lot 
of mental gymnastics to figure out the impact of my house rule on prices.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:58:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:58:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CF6F3E.3427B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <E16sW9A-0001AK-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402175058.028900a0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn says, about EMP pipe bombs:

>Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find anything.  OK,
>I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite terrorist building
>these?

Off the top of my head:

What is its effectiveness against _shielded_ devices?

Terrorists usually like nice dramatic, visible results.  For immediate 
gratification, and for its propaganda value on the nightly television 
news.  EMPs are less than completely satisfying in this regard.

It's relatively new, give it more time.

ObTrav:  Most developed worlds will have good enough shielding in standard 
equipment that terrorists with EMP bombs can accomplish very little.

--Laning

PS  Wasn't an EMP bomb a plot device in the recent remake of 'Oceans Eleven'?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:53:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:53:24 -0600
Subject: [TML] GT starports and fuel
Message-ID: <3CAA3664.E63D6D4F@mail.cswnet.com>

Some ideas, questions, and thoughts to kick around....

First, A fix proposal:
Original text>
Page 72: "The average port should incorporate tankage at least equal to
.06 times the weekly displacement tonnage of starship served."

Additional text>
begining at the end of "served, times the distance in parsecs to the 
closest planetary system. The closest planetary system used for this
purpose may not be interdicted."

Second, the fuel blimp issue p73
Questions:
Could one use fuel blimps to pick up fuel from asteroid belts, assuming
that such belts had ice and the fuel blimp would be picking up the fuel
from a fuel mining station?

Text:"GM should ... assign a small craft cost of Mcr.001 to Mcr1
(averaging Mcr.01)per dt of total weekly starship traffic"

Why is the purpose have having a variation in cost for fuel blimps?
Why would it not be per dt of total weekly starship fuel used?

Three, conversion to CT/HG2
Anyone using GT:Starports for CT/HG2 purposes must remember to add
powerplant fuel to the port tankage requirement. 
Example: Arba has a weekly starship dt of 1050. For GT purposes,
assuming 3 day supply min., 1050*.06*2parsecs=126dt jumpfuel A full week
supply would be double this, 252dt. For CT/HG2, assume a minimum power
plant equal to minimum jump distance; in Arba's case, 2 parsecs.
1050*.01*2=21 for 4 weeks of operation, 10.5 for 2 weeks (enough for 
minimum jump, assuming no bumpy ride). This leaves us with a full weeks
supply for HG2 purposes of 262.5dt.

.01Cr for your thoughts...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:28:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:28:15 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402175058.028900a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8CF7E8F.34298%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 2:58 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Off the top of my head:
> 
> What is its effectiveness against _shielded_ devices?

How many targets are likely to be shielded?
> 
> Terrorists usually like nice dramatic, visible results.  For immediate
> gratification, and for its propaganda value on the nightly television
> news.  EMPs are less than completely satisfying in this regard.

Not necessarily.  There are sophisticated terrorists, particularly state
sponsored ones.  Think of the impact EMP could have on banks and credit
firms.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:32:03 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy Analysis
Message-ID: <20020402233203.5927.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I would assume (there I go with my assumptions again)
that anyone willing to commit piracy would also be
willing to skip. And it's much, much easier to just
skip.
END QUOTE

Except some of the things that make piracy hard such
as always on transponders and huge sensor arrays, also
make it hard to skip. After all there is no point
skipping if you can't sell your ship our make money
through trade or piracy or smuggling. It would be
easier to decalre yourself bankrupt. That is of course
if MyMines don't get hold of you.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:43:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 01:43:39 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <20020402200103.89CDB279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204030126270.19159-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Bruce Johnson writes:
>CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
>>1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to
>>remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible
>
>Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
>ridiculous as well.

No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H. erectus_
and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
showing up as early as that.

But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In
the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place
_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.

>Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens,
>H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.

_H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.

[*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.


Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:49:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204030126270.19159-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <B8CF8370.3429F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 3:43 PM, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen at rancke@diku.dk wrote:

> _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
> mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
> reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
> but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
> 
> [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.

Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are
interfertile.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:56:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:56:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #372 - 42 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020402170616.65F2C279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402155400.00a4c780@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 02 Apr 2002 08:03:56 -0800, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> 
wrote:

>I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
>
>(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
>
>100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

*scratches head*  Knowing Galileo is geeky?  I thought that was called 
"educated."


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:05:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:05:43 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> In fact, given manufacturing capabilities of TTL 12+ industrial
> worlds, it may well cost less, complete with being airtight,
> radiation proof, and bracing sufficient to hold up against
> maneuvering stresses.

That's an argument for making *everything* cost less, not just
starships.  In fact, GT *does* make high-tech worlds a lot richer than
low-tech ones, so this matches pretty well.


> But the absolute cheapest spacecraft, with hardly yacht-like
> standards of creature comforts or other furnishings, costs about ten
> times what earth yachts cost.

I get the cheapest manned interplanetary spacecraft as costing about
50 kCr new at TL 10.  That's not a lot more than an expensive new car.


> Which edition of Traveller rules are you going by?  I think we're talking 
> apples and oranges to each other.

Probably.  I'm using GURPS Traveller and GURPS Vehicles, and dividing
jump drive costs by 10 (but no other changes).


> Although I intend to buy pieces of GT, ship construction isn't one
> of them.

The basic GURPS Traveller book has a modular starship construction
system, so you might find it hard to avoid :)


> Costs for the major components of an LBB 2 minimum configuration 200-ton 
> ship follow.
> 200t hull:  8 megacredits

Ouch!  Under GURPS Vehicles, I can get the cost down to under 0.02 MCr!
(if it doesn't have to land on a planet)

> Type A power plant:  8 megacredits

Double-ouch!  Much less than 0.1 MCr under GT (depending on other
ship's systems).

> Type A maneuver drive:  4 megacredits

Triple-ouch!  If you can accept low acceleration, this could be as low
as you like in most design systems.

> Type A jump drive:  10 megacredits

Yeah, about what GURPS Traveller uses.  By far the biggest expense of
a starship, but not relevant to a mere spaceship.

> Model 1 computer with no software:  2 megacredits

Quadruple-ouch!  You can get away with a few tens of thousands at most
for a bare redundant computer system under GURPS.


Wow, the LBBs really do hit your wallet *hard*!  I suggest using some
other design system if you want lower costs.  *Any* other design
system.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:07:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:07:30 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
Message-ID: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
But your troubles are only just *beginning* -- their
cargo manifest includes 10 dtons of live penguins ...
END QUOTE

PC's on a derelict free trader:
PC1: "Hmmm, blood everywhere but no bodies"
PC2: "The only thing on the manifest is penguins, yet
the cargo bay is empty"
PC3: "Who would slaughter an entire ships crew for
penguins?"
PC2: "They also took the small craft"
PC1: "Whats that noise?"
PC3: "What noise?"
PC1: "Sounded like flapping of some kind"
PC2: "Lets get back to the ship"
PC1: "Okay lets go. <speaking into com> Hey Samantha,
light up the drives where out of here"
<No response>
PC1: "Samantha?, do you read?"
PC2: "Hey wheres Jimmy?"
PC1: <Spinning around to search for Jimmy> "Jimmy,
jimmy?"
<END RECORDING>

James







=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:08:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #372 - 42 msgs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402155400.00a4c780@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <B8CF87E8.342AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 3:56 PM, Kelly St.Clair at kellys@efn.org wrote:

>> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
> 
> *scratches head*  Knowing Galileo is geeky?  I thought that was called
> "educated."

It's even in the digest:

"When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:16:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:16:28 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
Message-ID: <20020403001628.32715.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

Speaking of villians with english accents reminds me
of a scene from Buffy:the vampire slayer. The english
librarian nearly gets killed by a demon and somebody
says:
"I bet your whole life flashed before your eyes, cup
of tea, cup of tea, nearly got shagged, cup of tea"

ObTrav: Sneaky intelligence agents have french
accents, even if they are Zhodani ;) Speaking of which
what would a Zhodani accent be comparable too?

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:28:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:28:43 PST
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204010842.AAA08687@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20402.152843.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?  What does canon say on =
>>this?
>
> Canon says little that I know of.  Generally, I assume it's hard.
>
>>Some parameters here:  I'm not talking about hijacking a ship, nor am I =
>>talking about ship theft incidental to piracy.
>>
>>Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved in stealing a =
>>starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.
>>
>>It seems to me the problem can be considered as four separate issues:

>>3.  Entering the vessel.
>>
>>Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let you in. <g> =20
>>
>>How do starships determine who to admit?  Whoever holds the key?  =
>>Voiceprints?  Biometrics?  Passwords?  Some combination?  Given =
>>sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar (doubtful) or a cutting =
>>torch (probably)? =20
>
> For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't get
> in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
> send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
> do the ship much good, however.

Also, it can't be *too* hard. there will be lots of situations when the
crew wants to get inside *fast*, or they may be a bit "damaged" or
"incapacitated". Or both.

Entry should be merely difficult enough to dissaude *amatuers*. Pros
will get in anyway, so the extra efforts isn't really justifiable in
terms of cost/benefit. 

>>Having forced your way in what active countermeasures do you have to =
>>defeat?  Does the ship send combat bots?  Does the environmental system =
>>become hostile?  Does an anti theft program deliberately destroy the =
>>Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the j-drive useless?
>
> Most likely, none of the above; the ship yells for help and goes into 
> lockdown mode.  Paranoid owners could easily equip the ship with kill
> switches in a few critical concealed junctions.

"Mantrap" type defenses (ie possibly injurious or lethal defenses not
under human control) are a great way to get yourself in *big* trouble
at least in most of the civilized world now. 

As an example, while many jurisdictions say that you can shoot an
intruder who invades your home while you are inside, those same
jurisdictions will be all over you for setting a beartrap when you
aren't home.

The Imperium may be looser about this, but I wouldn't count on it too
far. 

Also, do you *really* want to risk getting killed if there's a bug in
those automated defenses?

>>4.  Establishing vessel control.
>>
>>Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do you get the starship =
>>to respond to your commands?  When you plop down on the pilot's couch =
>>what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver drive?  =
>>Again, is there a key?  Biometrics?  PIN numbers?  How much trouble =
>>would there be in performing the starship analog of a hot-wire job?
>
> For higher tech ships, most likely you're defeating biometrics, plus a
> rather smart robot brain.  Unless you can steal startup information from
> the owner, most likely you're talking hours or days of work, particularly
> if kill switches have been installed.

Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...

But the biggest problem with stealing a starship on the ground will be
getting away. 

At all but the smallest ports, it'd be rather like trying to steal an
airliner from an airport, or a large ocean going vessel from a port.
The tower or the portmaster is going to want to know why you are making
an unscheduled departure. And if you don't have good answers, the Coast
Guard or Air Guard will be there in a hurry.

Stealing a orbit capable vessel (shuttle, etc) would likely be easier.
More like stealing small yacht or a small planes. Way too many of them
and they don't follow schedules. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:38:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:38:10 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>

> From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
> Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's
> kind of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not doing
> any more jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the
> character becomes motivated to take this one, last job.

In fact it's such a "classic bit" that I am considering playing it as a solo
game.

Unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable mission!  : (

I've got a couple of ideas about how to run it, though.  They might be of
interest to the other solo players on the list.

I'm thinking of having a list of possible "patrons", and not deciding which
is actually responsible until my character goes through the exercise of
finding out.  I might also have a set of contacts and potential allies, who
have to be approached and brought into the mission.  All of this takes time,
and possibly travel, and may not be successful.  There will also be other
factions interfering - again, these would be anonymous until identified the
hard way.  There would be some "just plain random" encounters as well.

The idea would be lots of paranoia.  Who is that that is tailing you?  Were
those thugs in the alley working for the other side, or were they just
thugs?  Who were the guys with the plasma guns that blew them away?

Of course there would have to be a list of mapped locations, with some
related NPCs.

Success would come from mobilising your own possible assets, finding out who
else is in the game, thwarting their plans, and working towards your own
devastating exercise in turning the tables on the jerks blackmailing you.

The plot itself would be a McGuffin hunt, shaped by "just in time" random
generation, plus incidents of "a man with a gun enters the room".  It could
be hopelessly convoluted and pointless, or it could be The Maltese Falcon.
Or The Millenium Falcon.

Now all I need is the time and energy to develop these ideas...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:12:07 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7@aol.com>

--part1_ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power
biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.  If the
security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.
 
   Hmmm...A goofy idea just occured to me. Someone outside in their suit 
could manually crank open this small access plate that'd allow him to place 
his head inside. His helmet's visor could then be opened (by servos?) so he 
could do face-to-scanner interaction with the ship, and thus, get the ship to 
open the hatch. Try to fake out the computer and you suddenly discover your 
head is inside a guillotine. Sure wouldn't like to be there when the computer 
decides to acquire a glitch in its programming :)
  -Ken-

"You are born with the yearning arrow, my Glynna.  It is not a happy thing
to possess... It points to the stars, and when it cannot reach them, it falls 
back to pierce your heart."
    - Wind (Isobelle Carmody, "Darkfall")
    




--part1_ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
<BR>intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power
<BR>biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit. &nbsp;If the
<BR>security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
<BR>vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
<BR>other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.
<BR> </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Hmmm...A goofy idea just occured to me. Someone outside in their suit could manually crank open this small access plate that'd allow him to place his head inside. His helmet's visor could then be opened (by servos?) so he could do face-to-scanner interaction with the ship, and thus, get the ship to open the hatch. Try to fake out the computer and you suddenly discover your head is inside a guillotine. Sure wouldn't like to be there when the computer decides to acquire a glitch in its programming :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">"You are born with the yearning arrow, my Glynna. &nbsp;It is not a happy thing
<BR>to possess... It points to the stars, and when it cannot reach them, it falls 
<BR>back to pierce your heart."
<BR>    - Wind (Isobelle Carmody, "Darkfall")</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:16:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:16:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CF7E8F.34298%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402175058.028900a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402195900.00a95950@pop.wizard.net>

At 03:28 PM 4/2/02 -0800, you wrote:
>on 4/2/02 2:58 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
>
> > Off the top of my head:
> >
> > What is its effectiveness against _shielded_ devices?
>
>How many targets are likely to be shielded?
Government property and some industrial/commercial stuff.

I guess one of the best targets for the determined Luddite with an EMP bomb 
(hmm, is that an oxymoron?) would be MAE EAST.  I doubt it's shielded well 
enough.


> >
> > Terrorists usually like nice dramatic, visible results.  For immediate
> > gratification, and for its propaganda value on the nightly television
> > news.  EMPs are less than completely satisfying in this regard.
>
>Not necessarily.  There are sophisticated terrorists, particularly state
>sponsored ones.  Think of the impact EMP could have on banks and credit
>firms.
Yeah, I know.  :-<

At the risk of offending or jangling someone's nerves, those people still 
seem to prefer driving airliners full of avgas into the World Trade Center 
over something that invisibly makes machines stop working.  Partly for 
propaganda as stated above, but also because I think bin Laden and the 
hijackers who did those acts are sick pukes and get their jollies in sick ways.

Lest anyone think I am asserting that the very nature of terrorists makes 
us safe from any of them ever trying an EMP attack, I don't.  In fact, I 
think it is inevitable.  Just as I thought crashing a hijacked airliner 
into the Pentagon or White House or Capitol dome has been inevitable since 
it first occurred to me sometime...sometime around when the first three 
LBBs were published.  Not that there's any connection between the 
two.  It's just that even perfectly innocent people were dreaming up such 
things 25 years ago, and it turns out someone should have been taking those 
stray ideas much more seriously.

If the Gruppenfuhrer for Fatherland Security, er um I mean the Director of 
Homeland Security, ever gets around to it then he should already be pushing 
for hardening key governmental and commercial facilities and infrastructure 
like our power grid.  And looking for ways to trace sales of the rarer 
components required for assembling an EMP bomb capable of affecting a large 
area.

See guys?  Living in undefended New Zealand has its advantages.  All you 
have to do is worry about what to do with all that sheep dung and 
wool.  The folks in the States have to worry about junk like this.

Ever the tenacious one, I seek an ObTrav.  The Ine Givar come to mind, and 
what might their history be with successful and less than successful 
attempts at terror attacks?  Including what they may or may not have tried 
with EMP bombs and it went if they did.  We already know of that unpleasant 
nuclear thing.

--Laning (who often wonders if the National Security Agency in the US is 
driven buggy trying to figure out how to deal with the content that gamers 
put on the Internet)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:23:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:23:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8d0082a2e41@[143.232.119.186]>

On rule of thumb in security is that the hard you make it for 
unwarranted intrusion, the harder you make it for authorized people 
(you can't wear gloves for the thumb print, a cold alters your voice, 
etc.)

In some ways you can claim an entry code is the most secure (you can 
have the computer detect people trying to cycle through all the 
possible combinations), but in the end anything will be bypassible if 
you try hard enough.

Now starships are valuable, and there seems to be examples of people 
leaving them unattended, so I would guess the security to prevent 
intrusion would be high enough that it would be take a lot of effort 
to get in.  The crew will have to accept difficulties in getting in. 
That assumes the ship is unattended.  If there is crew on board, the 
security will be much lighter, just enough to keep someone from 
stolling on board.

I doubt security internally would be that great since the main goal 
will be to keep unauthorized people from wandering around and you 
don't want to obstruct a crewman in a hurry.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:26:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:26:08 +0200
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020403012608.08423dc6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.

Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:29:05 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
> reprinted in various places.

I Google'd around, but all I could find was webpages mentioning it. It
would seem that it is available in various paper reprints, but not on the
web. Sad...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:31:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020402.173115.-2657.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:12:07 EST MurfNMurf@aol.com writes:
>
>    Hmmm...A goofy idea just occured to me. Someone outside in their 
suit  could manually crank open this small access plate that'd allow him 
to place  his head inside. His helmet's visor could then be opened (by 
servos?) so he  could do face-to-scanner interaction with the ship, and
thus, get  the ship to  open the hatch. 

Open the pod bay doors Hal.

I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now.

Hal, open the pod bay doors.

I'm sorry Dave.

HAL! 

Yes Dave.

Hal, I've got to go to the bathroom!

I'm sorry Dave



..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:28:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:28:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
References: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>

At 4:20 AM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example. 
>Paying passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them 
>through the passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger areas 
>of the ship.  Each keycard is unique to each passenger, and so the 
>same card gets them into their own private cabin.  Crew will have 
>similar cards, that give them more freedom, and exactly how much and 
>which greater freedoms would depend on the crew member's billet.

I really don't see the crew needing card to move about the ship. 
That is going to get old in a hurry, could be a problem in an 
emergency, and is unecessary.

In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go 
where they shouldn't.  You wouldn't actually lock things unless they 
were particularly sensitive or valuable or someone had leasure to get 
into somplace they shouldn't (like an isolated closet).  This is 
similar to what ships use today.

-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:37:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:37:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <20402.152843.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204010842.AAA08687@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>

The esteemed Leonard Erickson wrote, including quotes from Texas Redshift:
> > For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't get
> > in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
> > send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
> > do the ship much good, however.
>
>Also, it can't be *too* hard. there will be lots of situations when the
>crew wants to get inside *fast*, or they may be a bit "damaged" or
>"incapacitated". Or both.
>
>Entry should be merely difficult enough to dissaude *amatuers*. Pros
>will get in anyway, so the extra efforts isn't really justifiable in
>terms of cost/benefit.
I agree but only a little bit.  The penalty when you do lose a ship (and 
probably some lives at the same time) is very large.  Typically hundreds of 
millions.  Yes, it is a touchstone of security that no security system is 
perfect, and you shouldn't spend excess effort on attempting to perfect 
your security beyond a point that is appropriate to your degree of risk and 
the cost if security fails.  Even one fat trader or passenger liner lost is 
going to drive everyone's insurance rates through the roof and may risk 
putting the insurer financially on the ropes.  If nobody else does, then 
insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security 
measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time 
and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.

The military will probably take a very different approach.  They'll rely on 
numerous armed crewmembers and armed ships in the area, and not bother with 
all the automated stuff.  The personnel and other vessels have to be there 
anyway, it isn't like it costs them extra.

> > Most likely, none of the above; the ship yells for help and goes into
> > lockdown mode.  Paranoid owners could easily equip the ship with kill
> > switches in a few critical concealed junctions.
>
>"Mantrap" type defenses (ie possibly injurious or lethal defenses not
>under human control) are a great way to get yourself in *big* trouble
>at least in most of the civilized world now.
I agree this will be a problem, but the Traveller universe's legal 
standards are not the same as the USA's.  As we all have reminded ourselves 
in the past during other discussions.  I did allude in my own earlier post 
to liability insurance possibly being voided by installation of security 
hardware capable of inflicting physical harm.  Even my trick with the grav 
plates may be rather expensive to get insurance for.  (Personally, I'd want 
it anyway, just not in sleeping quarters.)  IMTU, a ship without valid 
insurance finds itself unable to get permits for travelling most places in 
the Imperium.  Starport authorities don't want them around, booking agents 
won't want to sell passenger tickets for them, etc.

Oh, I'm not sure that the phrase "kill switches" was supposed to mean 
mantrap defenses.  I think it may have meant disabling critical ship's 
systems.  Perhaps a triphammer smashes the zuchai crystals.  <G>


>As an example, while many jurisdictions say that you can shoot an
>intruder who invades your home while you are inside, those same
>jurisdictions will be all over you for setting a beartrap when you
>aren't home.
>
>The Imperium may be looser about this, but I wouldn't count on it too
>far.
>
>Also, do you *really* want to risk getting killed if there's a bug in
>those automated defenses?
Few will, so even if they're able to obtain insurance and overcome the 
other issues, the minute someone points out to the risk to them of being 
hoist by their own petard, most owners/captains will drop the idea.

>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
>someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
>attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...
I see we've met some of the same player characters.  :->


>But the biggest problem with stealing a starship on the ground will be
>getting away.

Yes.  Exactly.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:34:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:34:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204030134.DFP01107@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite 
>terrorist building these?
>--

You have me there.  I think that there are a fair number of 
people on this list who are capable of manufacturing a flux 
compression generator, and a vircator (or obtaining something 
like it).

None of the technology involved in making such a device is 
restricted in the US other than the explosives.

It reminds me of a railgun in reverse, except you have an 
explosive driving the short back down the gun, and the power 
has nowhere to go except into a smaller and smaller area.  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:36:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
In-Reply-To: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]>

In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would 
tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary 
arrays.....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:40:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:40:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204030140.DFP01461@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>How many targets are likely to be shielded?

The literature I've been reading says that if your equipment 
is not completely enclosed in a Faraday cage, and you're 
inside the effective radius, your equipment is toast.

Antennae and metal cables that protrude outside the cage, or 
fiber cables that go through metal conduits will act as a 
waveguide if the bomb uses microwaves.

Think of the kind of shielding that was necessary for 
shielding against nuclear EMP.  The conventional EMP bomb has 
two advantages: longer pulse time and tunable frequency (by 
design).
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:41:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:41:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com> <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>


"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
> In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
> tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
> arrays.....

Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:46:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:46:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <20020403001628.32715.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402203829.027db060@pop.wizard.net>

James asks:
>ObTrav: Sneaky intelligence agents have french
>accents, even if they are Zhodani ;) Speaking of which
>what would a Zhodani accent be comparable too?

People who use the "zh" sound a lot?  Perhaps they are all French, since 
typically the letter J is pronounced as a zh sound en Francais.  Wargamers 
being the lot we typically are, it is hard to keep them from sinking into 
Monty Python and the Holy Grail shtick whenever French accents come up, 
however.  That is not desirable.

I'm drawing a blank for "zh" speakers.  Places that are vaguely middle 
eastern or central asian come to mind for some reason, but nothing specific.

I've always _wanted_ to give my Zhos accents, so this is definitely a 
worthwhile thread if we can derive an answer.

OTOH, it's silly to imagine that all people in a star-spanning empire have 
the same accent.  I mean, we can't even get all people on Terra to have the 
same accent.  There are hundreds of languages here, often extremely 
different from each other.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:45:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:45:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204030145.DFP01794@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>See guys?  Living in undefended New Zealand has its 
>advantages.  All you have to do is worry about what to do 
>with all that sheep dung and wool.  The folks in the States 
>have to worry about junk like this.
>

Well, they do have to worry about their government going 
silly on them.  That, and there's a story about a coffee 
roaster who was forced to stop roasting coffee at all hours 
(seems the neighbors didn't like the smell).

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:57:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:57:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>

>Tim Little, after comparing GURPS ship construction costs to LBB 
>construction costs, says:
>Wow, the LBBs really do hit your wallet *hard*!  I suggest using some
>other design system if you want lower costs.  *Any* other design
>system.

Actually, all the nonGURPS Traveller ship construction rules will produce 
results _much_ closer to the LBB prices than to GURPS prices.  And from 
what I've skimmed in the GURPS rules, I'd rather not switch to them, 
thanks.  I like MT ship building.

I think the original idea behind such expensive ships was to avoid having a 
Jetsons future where everyone can drive the family car to another planet 
for a weekend jaunt.  They wanted to have put high, but not impossibly 
high, barriers to frequent travel between star systems.  Otherwise there's 
no reason to believe that each the civilizations on each planet will remain 
distinctly different from each other after 1,100 years of being in the same 
Imperium and rubbing elbows all the time.

If you want worlds to have truly unique and _alien_ differences from each 
other, then you have to make travel between worlds be rare.   Which also 
makes the traveller (our intrepid player character) herself be rare and 
special.  That adds to escapist pleasure of roleplaying.

And I buy into all that, I do.  But I think we won't significantly alter 
traffic levels if we make ships hugely cheaper but still the province only 
of the very wealthy, a well funded corporation, or a government.  In fact, 
I am suspicious that canonical ship construction is so expensive that it 
can't properly account for the numbers of trade vessels that are required 
to support the massive trade going on between developed worlds.  Not that 
I've crunched any numbers, mind you.  Just talking through my...hat.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:05:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:05:35 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402205809.027d9ba0@pop.wizard.net>

At Alan Bradley quoted and wrote:
> > From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
> > Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's
> > kind of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not doing
> > any more jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the
> > character becomes motivated to take this one, last job.
>
>In fact it's such a "classic bit" that I am considering playing it as a solo
>game.
>
>Unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable mission!  : (
>
>I've got a couple of ideas about how to run it, though.  They might be of
>interest to the other solo players on the list.
I'm interested.  Especially if you can come up with practical ways for the 
bad guys to throw some real surprises at you.  Maybe all those with 
interest in solo play should write our own interactive scripts to post on 
Web sites and then go play on each other's Web sites?

(I'm definitely interested in seeing how successful a game design the new 
NeverWinter Nights will be.  And then applying that to other genres besides 
the Tolkien-cloned D&D games.  Like, science-fiction role-playing 
games.  The basic concept of anyone with a computer and network connection 
being able to tailor their own game world to their own game server and 
leave it up for other players is an interesting one.  EverQuest for 
Everyman, kind of thing.)

Keep us posted on your progress, please, Alan.

--Laning
"I'm leavin'....on a jet plane
  Don't know when I'll be back again
  Oh, babe
  I hate to go"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:16:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:16:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <200204030216.DFQ00018@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>If you want worlds to have truly unique and _alien_ 
>differences from each other, then you have to make travel 
>between worlds be rare.   Which also makes the traveller 
>(our intrepid player character) herself be rare and 
>special.  That adds to escapist pleasure of roleplaying.
>

I've recently come to the same conclusion, and the main 
handwave that I use is that there is a maximum size jump 
drive that can be built at each TL, and therefore a maximum 
size ship (regardless of how much cash you have).

Having re-read the Kinunir (I know, I know..) they talk about 
one of the ships in the class not being able to reach its 
full jump potential.  I therefore like the idea that you can 
build to a jump number, but whether or not you get it 
consistently with every ship in the class is something else.  
This means that a military ship may go through several refits 
in order to achieve its potential.  Reminds me of some 
fighter aircraft (the F-14 springs to mind) that didn't get 
decent engines until later in their useful life.  And some 
started with engines that were positively lethal.

I know that there are a lot of people who like the big spinal 
mounts, but I've reduced the maximum tonnage of ships to a 
fairly linear plot from 5000 tons at TL 9 to 20,000 tons at 
TL 15 (CT/HG).  I'm also assuming that the larger the ship, 
the more likely that the jump drive will be problematic.  
This explains the use of relatively small ships (200 and 400 
ton) despite the fact that with either HG or MT, much larger 
ships should completely Microsoft, I mean, replace all 
smaller vessels.

Also, I believe (John The Heretic) that abusing your jump 
drives leads to damage that is never really undone.  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:17:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:17:46 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <001f01c1da40$0a82f040$2c5d8690@computer>
References: <20020402064409.B8250279FA@mail.travellercentral.com> <001f01c1da40$0a82f040$2c5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <dhpkauca8tq85ip65jgf2n884na681gjhc@4ax.com>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:14:25 +1000, "Alan Bradley"
<abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:

>> From: JR Holmes=20
>> This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
>> There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
>> (or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
>> sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
>> example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.
>>=20
>> =3D46rom a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become =
part
>> of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
>> destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
>> becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.
>
>You evil naughty man...

And you wouldn't do the the same?

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:30:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:30:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>

Jens Rydholm quoted then opined:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been
> > reprinted in various places.
>
>I Google'd around, but all I could find was webpages mentioning it. It
>would seem that it is available in various paper reprints, but not on the
>web. Sad...

Sad?  Not if you talk to Harlan Ellison.  It's another intellectual 
property debate.  Artists and other creators have no capitalist incentive 
to share their work if it can be freely copied.  And, like any other 
property, they feel it's only fair that they be able to bequeath to their 
heirs.  Harlan is quite adamant about passing his IP rights (and royalties) 
down to his daughters.  He's hardly alone.  And anyone on the list who is 
still collecting royalties of some kind on their own published material 
takes more than a theoretical interest, I suppose.

I am on both sides of the fence (I'm like Jeremy the Nowhere Man in 'Yellow 
Submarine' or the Scarecrow in 'The Wizard of Oz').  I sympathize with 
Harlan Ellison and others.  I also feel strongly that sharing knowledge has 
less value to the human race if the knowledge is only shared with those who 
can pay for it.  The Internet is a great democratizer of knowledge 
sharing.  (It's more a socialist thing than a democracy thing, but it's not 
generally acceptable in the States to express it that way.)

I love usenet and mailing lists and even the WWW and email.  Everyone can 
share all their information freely!  And some of it is even accurate!  And 
I love that writers can make a living by writing!  Uh-oh, wait, I have a 
problem here.

What mechanisms are in place within the Imperium, or in other entities, for 
owners of IP rights to protect them against abuse on other planets?  I 
think the TML has tried to delve into this in the past, but always kind of 
veered away.  Or if we covered it, I was on hiatus from the TML due to 
traffic levels and shortage of time.  Certainly, it is not a condition of 
membership in the Imperium for member worlds to enforce any such 
mechanisms.  Does the Imperium still play a large role?  Perhaps backing a 
voluntary, but widely adhered to, accord or convention on IP rights?  Is 
part of the extensive data traffic between member worlds is updates to 
databases that track book sales, TriD sales, etc.?  In contract disputes 
over royalties where the parties to the dispute reside on different worlds, 
how are they resolved?

By the way, Jens, have you read Hal Clement's 'Mission of Gravity'?  A 
great example of intelligent alien life forms evolving on a world extremely 
different from Terra.  A just plain extreme world, in fact.  Clement opens 
the hood and lets us peer into a lot of the alien building he does.  The 
book's a classic, in fact.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:00:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:00:59 PST
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204011745.g31Hji001663@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20402.180059.2g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> As I've mentioned before, I've been toying w/ the idea of
> inertial suppression as a means of fast accelleration in an
> sf-rpg I'm *slowly* putting together w/ the help of some
> friends. However, there's some conflict over how to achieve
> this (I can email two articles which hint at the scientific
> premise to anyone who's interested). There's also the problem
> of unintended consequences. Since inertial suppression also
> exists in Traveller (so that ships can accellerate at 6G
> w/o squashing their crews), it might be a good idea to
> consider these consequences for a bit.

No. Inertial *compensation* exists in Traveller. Inertial
*suppression/neutralization* is a different matter.

The effects in Traveller could be simply created by an additional
component to the ship's artifical gravity that is equally and opposite
to the acceleration from the drive. The inertial mass of the contents
of the ship is unchanged, but a counteracting force is applied
uniformly to them

True inertia neutralization (or suppression) changes F=ma to F=kma
where k is a constant (or variable) determined by the degree of
neutralization. 

In effect, you are changing the inertial mass of the objects in
question. If this was what was happening in Traveller, then you
couldn't throw a ball across a compartment. As soon as you quit
pushing, the air resistance would stop it. 

BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
playing "grav pong" with hijackers.

> Basically, if I read him right, what he appears to be saying is that
> if you lower inertia in a given space by 99%, people in that area will
> have much more strength than they're used to having, because the
> chemical reactions going on in their bodies which generate energy
> will still be generating as much energy, but for a much smaller
> apparent mass, meaning that they'll be able to perform extrodinary
> feats (and quite possibly hurt themselves), and that the only way
> around this is to downscale everything else, which generates a
> very strange and inconsistent reality.
>
> What do other people think about this argument?

Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects. 

There's also the question as to whether or not gravitational mass and
inertial mass are the same thing. Last I heard, experiments had shown
that they were the same to with 1 part in something like 10^12, but
it's still an *assumption* that they are the same thing.

But assuming that you can live thru the process, then it'd be best to
ignore all the effects at the sub-molar level (ie molecular and lower).

This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:15:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:15:59 PST
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204011749.DDD03964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20402.181559.4K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
> effects when you modify Planck's constant.

Starting with minor things like matter as we know it not being possible
if you tweak it more than a *tiny* bit.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:17:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:17:51 PST
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204020013.g320DTU02643@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20402.181751.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
>> effects when you modify Planck's constant.
>
> Not talking about modifying Planck's constant. Only talking about
> modifying inertia. Tim introduced the idea of modifying Planck's
> constant as a device to keep strangeness from happening when
> inertia is modified, but I'm not 100% sure that inertial suppression
> would necessarily result in strangeness in the first place. Trying
> to get some thoughts on the matter.

The attraction between particles (molecules, etc) would be the same.
But their (effective) mass would be lower. Making the accelerations due
to the forces higher. Which would give the *effect* of making the
forces stronger.

That's why I said that it'd be best to just handwave all the stuff at
the molecular and lower layers. Dealing with the effects at the "gross"
(molar) level is gonna be hairy enough.

The only writers that have ever dealt with this that I can recall are
E.E. Smith in the Lensman series, and one small section of one of
Heinlein's Future History stories (the one that introduces the Howard
Familes, and which I cannot recall the title of)-:

I do like one idea of Smith's. Namely that you retain your original
velocity vector while "free". If you are doing partial neutralization,
things would get messier, but they'd still be doable. 

This provides a nice complication in that when you restore inertua, you
have to worry about which direction that vector point. If it's aimed at
a nearby solid object, Ouch!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:39:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:39:06 -0700
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> or look up flux compressors 
> 
> The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures 
> I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius 
> kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.
> 
> Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find
> anything.  OK, I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite
> terrorist building these? --

That's a very good question.  I've read speculation that they may 
have been used in some places, but I'd think the evidence would be 
pretty obvious (lots of fried computers).  At that point, I'm guessing 
that most terrorists want to see blood far more than lost data.

OTOH, I wonder if more some of the more hard-line 
environmentalist groups like Green Peace and Earth First know 
about these things, maybe I'll send them a link :)

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:42:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:42:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
 <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402213220.0287eec0@pop.wizard.net>

David Summers quoted me and wrote:
>At 4:20 AM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>>There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example. Paying 
>>passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them through the 
>>passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger areas of the 
>>ship.  Each keycard is unique to each passenger, and so the same card 
>>gets them into their own private cabin.  Crew will have similar cards, 
>>that give them more freedom, and exactly how much and which greater 
>>freedoms would depend on the crew member's billet.
>
>I really don't see the crew needing card to move about the ship. That is 
>going to get old in a hurry, could be a problem in an emergency, and is 
>unecessary.
I agree with your thesis expressed earlier that crew needs to be able to 
move about the ship on their duties unimpeded.  What I had in mind was 
keeping the passenger-only areas fenced off.  Crew will have to pass 
through access-control points entering and exiting passenger areas, but 
it's a pretty low-level annoyance.  Just wave their Crew ID Badge in the 
general direction of the hatch.  It's probably clipped to their sleeve or 
collar.

>In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go where 
>they shouldn't.  You wouldn't actually lock things unless they were 
>particularly sensitive or valuable or someone had leasure to get into 
>somplace they shouldn't (like an isolated closet).  This is similar to 
>what ships use today.

I _tried_ to go where I wasn't allowed when I was aboard a cruise ship 
about fifteen years ago.  All the doors/hatches were locked.  Crew had keys 
for the doors they normally needed access to.  This was before electronic 
keys or crypto keys were common; I mean the crew had traditional keys.  A 
lot of doors were locked from the passenger side but not from the crew 
side.  Crew usually had to either knock to gain access from the passenger 
side, or go around the long way to somewhere they could enter.  Unsecured 
doors usually had a _lot_ of crew in the immediate vicinity.  If someone 
steals an ocean liner they can do a lot of damage, but if someone steals a 
starship they can potentially do far more than that.  I'd think starships 
have more safeguards than ocean liners.  IMTU.  YMMV.  :->

I like to envision ship security levels that make a player character think 
and work and plan really hard to succeed at gaining control of a ship's 
bridge and engineering.  But still keep it possible.  It should be rare and 
one of the proudest illegal achievements a player can brag of.  Most RPGers 
I've known are far too casual and impulsive to have a ghost of a chance at 
success.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:55:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:55:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20402.180059.2g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204011745.g31Hji001663@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215009.0283aec0@pop.wizard.net>

Leonard Erickson, in replying to JimV said:

>BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
>higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
>artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
>playing "grav pong" with hijackers.
Sounds like we see it the same way.  Although +6 gees to -6 gees in less 
than one second should be sufficient grav pong to deal with most hijackers.

I've always wondered at the canonical lack of ships capable of 
accelerations far greater than 6 gees.  We subject astronauts and fighter 
pilots to accelerations between 4 and 6 gees, so you'd think that high 
performance military aircraft would be capable of accelerating many gees 
faster than their internal grav compensation can handle.  They accelerate 
at 10 gees, have 6 gees of that compensated, and a "felt acceleration" of 4 
gees.

>Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
>things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects.

Yeah, it's way too messy a pandora's box for me to consider it seriously.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:59:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:59:49 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net> <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20020403125949.A14872@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go
> where they shouldn't.

On one sea trip on a passenger ferry I went exploring the passenger
accessible areas, and ended up on the wrong side of a very impressive
looking "Authorized Personnel Only" sign hanging on a heavy chain for
emphasis.  The strange thing is, I never actually passed any such
signs to get to the wrong side of the chained-off region :)

I could easily see the same thing happening on a large passenger liner
in Traveller.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:04:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:04:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204030216.DFQ00018@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215722.02839ec0@pop.wizard.net>

>I know that there are a lot of people who like the big spinal
>mounts, but I've reduced the maximum tonnage of ships to a
>fairly linear plot from 5000 tons at TL 9 to 20,000 tons at
>TL 15 (CT/HG).  I'm also assuming that the larger the ship,
>the more likely that the jump drive will be problematic.
>This explains the use of relatively small ships (200 and 400
>ton) despite the fact that with either HG or MT, much larger
>ships should completely Microsoft, I mean, replace all
>smaller vessels.
>
>Also, I believe (John The Heretic) that abusing your jump
>drives leads to damage that is never really undone.

I like spinal mounts.  The combat advantages in fleet actions are so great 
that I think battles tend to go to whoever has the most spinal 
mounts.  Back when they were doing TCS tournaments at cons, I think that 
tended to be the consensus as well.

I like your ideas about jump number being a nominal spec that has to be 
worked at to achieve in the field.  But we need rules, man, rules.  I'm not 
sure I agree with the Microsoft theory of big ships eating little ships, 
but IMHO the canonical Traveller universe stretches the old credibility 
suspenders awfully far to have such a plethora of small merchant ships 
running around all the time instead of shipping being dominated by 5,000t 
and bigger vessels.  I'd be more inclined to agree with large shipping 
_corporations_ eating little ones.  Which is possibly a better description 
of what Microsoft does, anyway.

I am interested in permanent damage to jump drives when they are 
abused.  But again I need rules, man!  Exactly what constitutes 
abuse?  Exactly how do you determine the consequences of abuse?  How much 
of that damage can be repaired, and what is required to repair it?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:12:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:12:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
In-Reply-To: <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b8d0233486e4@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:41 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
>"David P. Summers" wrote:
>>
>>  In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
>>  tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
>>  arrays.....
>
>Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
>masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....

But the tags would be unforgeable based on the penguins DNA!  Clearly 
this would be justified based on the threat that penguins pose.  (How 
could the Imperium  claim to control their territory if penguins roam 
free?)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:12:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:12:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Reply Etiquette Flame (was: Galileo)
In-Reply-To: <20020403013707.22C1527A00@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402190656.00a4a160@mailhost.efn.org>

Todd Glenn wrote, in response to a post where I forgot to change the 
default subject (something I am normally very good about):

>It's even in the digest:
>
>"When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."

Nice of you to quote my entire message just to bitch about the subject 
line.  Especially when I'm one of those who does take care to trim his 
quotes, post below quoted material, not use Outlook or post MIME to the 
list, etc etc...

In closing, sir, you are invited to <biological function> yourself.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:21:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:21:11 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <3CAA7526.B59B63BA@mail.cswnet.com>

Timothy Little writes:
>Wow, the LBBs really do hit your wallet *hard*!  I suggest using some
>other design system if you want lower costs.  *Any* other design
>system.

Yeah, but what other design system lets you have...
[drum roll with trumpets]

		THE INFAMOUS ONE MAN SCOUT SHIP!

Besides, a real Traveller scoffs at mere Mcr's. Its the Tcr's
that we pay attention to...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:26:02 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <3CAA764A.60353DD6@mail.cswnet.com>

General Turokan writes:
>Open the pod bay doors Hal.

>I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now.

>Hal, open the pod bay doors.

>I'm sorry Dave.

>HAL! 

>Yes Dave.

>Hal, I've got to go to the bathroom!

>I'm sorry Dave

One [1] keyboard kill.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:25:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:25:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <200204030325.DFT00415@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says 

"I need rules, man"

OK.  Let's do this on the assumption that there is a maximum 
size of ship that can be sent through jump space at each TL.

Start at 1000 tons at TL 9 and work your way up to TL 15 (CT).

That's the first rule.  You go next.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:43:03 +1000
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
References: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001401c1dac2$798ed940$86b18b90@computer>

> From: John Groth 
> I don't know of kian stats in any game system.

<vague memory surfacing>

Try original (print) JTAS.

I can't check at the moment, alas.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:48:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:48:07 +1000
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
Message-ID: <001501c1dac2$7cd48e60$86b18b90@computer>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>      The more robots deal with humans or operate within a general human
> setting, the more likely they'll be the upright, bipedal, anthromorphic
> robots of classic sci-fi.  A two-legged, vaguely human shaped, robot with
> arms and hands will be preferred as a steward or medic by most folks over
a
> metal box on treads with tentacles.  Robots with "hands" will also be able
> to use the same utensils and tools the rest of the crew uses.
>      Robots in industrial settings will be far less anthromorphic, in
those
> settings function will drive form.

There will be one category of robot that will be pseudo-biological - the
good old "companion" bot - servant, secretary, and sex-toy.

They don't have to be especially bright, or particularly able to pass for
human in social settings, so they aren't necessarily _hugely_ expensive.
They still will be toys for the wealthy, though.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:32:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:32:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <20020403001628.32715.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402222929.02df3008@192.168.0.1>

At 10:16 AM 4/3/2002 +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
>Speaking of villians with english accents reminds me
>of a scene from Buffy:the vampire slayer. The english
>librarian nearly gets killed by a demon and somebody
>says:
>"I bet your whole life flashed before your eyes, cup
>of tea, cup of tea, nearly got shagged, cup of tea"
>ObTrav: Sneaky intelligence agents have french
>accents, even if they are Zhodani ;) Speaking of which
>what would a Zhodani accent be comparable too?

Well...given the 'canon' cold war setup, the Zho would have Russian Accents.
That would make their Vargr allies Cubans (picture a Vargr in fatigues with 
a cigar and an AK-47 and a thick Spanish accent).
Hmmm...Sword Worlders would be the various Eastern European Warsaw Pact 
countries.
Your basic heavy handed eastern European accent.



----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:40:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:40:48 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403134048.A15012@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> I think the original idea behind such expensive ships was to avoid
> having a Jetsons future where everyone can drive the family car to
> another planet for a weekend jaunt.

Actually, they didn't really succeed :)

Even in non-GURPS versions of Traveller, there are much cheaper
spacecraft than starships, some of them capable of reaching Mars from
Earth in a day or so.  Granted, even there they are far more expensive
than an average Hyundai, but nowhere near the cost of a jump-capable
craft.


>  They wanted to have put high, but not impossibly high, barriers to
> frequent travel between star systems.  Otherwise there's no reason
> to believe that each the civilizations on each planet will remain
> distinctly different from each other after 1,100 years of being in
> the same Imperium and rubbing elbows all the time.

I think there is.  The time barriers suffice, if nothing else.  With
typically available jump drives, it takes *years* to get across the
Imperium.  Even if those drives were dirt cheap.

Furthermore, each planet has *drastically* different environmental
conditions and resources; much more different than say France is from
Antartica.  The economic drivers will be radically different in
various systems, and won't merge just because vehicles are cheap.

Even if travel between stars was absolutely free of charge, it still
takes at least a week or two to get to the nearest neighbouring
system.  That alone presents a social barrier to homogenisation even
within a subsector, let alone a sector or the Imperium as a whole.

This includes military homogenisation: A fleet of battleships at Core,
no matter how powerful, is no good against a tiny pack of Vargr ships
in the Spinward Marches.  So some areas have recent incursions by
foreigners, and large military forces for their population.  Other
areas have not seen a warship in action for generations, and receive
tenth-hand news 6 months old from the nearest conflict.  If they care.


Which brings up the next point: species differences.  Even among the
variants of humaniti, there are significant differences.  Then there
are the non-human sentient races, with their own thought processes,
customs, physical requirements and preferred cultures.  To say nothing
of the enormous variety of non-sentient natural wildlife present only
on a particular planet.

And you have political differences, which I don't think are likely to
disappear.  People will almost certainly retain differences in belief.
If interstellar travel is cheap that just makes it easier for members
of different cultures to move somewhere else rather than try to
integrate.


I'm sorry, I just don't see how making starships cheap erases all
these things that factor into making a local culture significantly
different from others.  More than that, I don't see how inflating the
cost of inter*planetary* spacecraft adds anything at all to the
variety within the Imperium, let alone differences outside it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:49:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:49:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402213220.0287eec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
 <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402213220.0287eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <p04330106b8d02b8f7e5e@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:42 PM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>David Summers quoted me and wrote:
>>At 4:20 AM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>>>There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example. 
>>>Paying passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them 
>>>through the passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger 
>>>areas of the ship.  Each keycard is unique to each passenger, and 
>>>so the same card gets them into their own private cabin.  Crew 
>>>will have similar cards, that give them more freedom, and exactly 
>>>how much and which greater freedoms would depend on the crew 
>>>member's billet.
>>
>>I really don't see the crew needing card to move about the ship. 
>>That is going to get old in a hurry, could be a problem in an 
>>emergency, and is unecessary.
>I agree with your thesis expressed earlier that crew needs to be 
>able to move about the ship on their duties unimpeded.  What I had 
>in mind was keeping the passenger-only areas fenced off.  Crew will 
>have to pass through access-control points entering and exiting 
>passenger areas, but it's a pretty low-level annoyance.  Just wave 
>their Crew ID Badge in the general direction of the hatch.  It's 
>probably clipped to their sleeve or collar.

Well, some smaller ships have passenger areas in the middle of the 
ship and you have to pass through it to get from one end to the other.

If this isn't true, I think you might see some sort of basic restriction...

>
>>In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go 
>>where they shouldn't.  You wouldn't actually lock things unless 
>>they were particularly sensitive or valuable or someone had leasure 
>>to get into somplace they shouldn't (like an isolated closet). 
>>This is similar to what ships use today.
>
>I _tried_ to go where I wasn't allowed when I was aboard a cruise 
>ship about fifteen years ago.  All the doors/hatches were locked. 
>Crew had keys for the doors they normally needed access to.  This 
>was before electronic keys or crypto keys were common; I mean the 
>crew had traditional keys

OTOH, I was on a ship for a gambling cruise and the bridge, which was 
off the upper deck where the passengers went to sight see, wasn't 
locked (the reason you didn't go in there was the feeling that the 
people in there would object :-)

>I like to envision ship security levels that make a player character 
>think and work and plan really hard to succeed at gaining control of 
>a ship's bridge and engineering.

I think the crew will be their main obstacle.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:37:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:37:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402223515.02da9ec0@192.168.0.1>

At 06:39 PM 6/2/2002 -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> > or look up flux compressors
> > The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures
> > I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius
> > kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.
> > Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find
> > anything.  OK, I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite
> > terrorist building these? --
>That's a very good question.  I've read speculation that they may
>have been used in some places, but I'd think the evidence would be
>pretty obvious (lots of fried computers).  At that point, I'm guessing
>that most terrorists want to see blood far more than lost data.
>OTOH, I wonder if more some of the more hard-line
>environmentalist groups like Green Peace and Earth First know
>about these things, maybe I'll send them a link :)

They already have their own official terrorist wings, ELF & ALF (Earth 
Liberation Front & Animal Liberation Front) leading the FBI lists.

You probably don't want to have the FBI draw a line between you and them.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:54:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:54:45 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402225324.01f21ff0@mail.charter.net>

Loren had mentioned a Traveller specific version of the GURPS character 
generation software was being considered.

Is this project a go?  If so, when would it see the light of day?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
           http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:03:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:03:33 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com> <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <k9vkau413ehik68ii1a6tna2hhcq425icf@4ax.com>

On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:38:10 +1000, "Alan Bradley"
<abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:

>> From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
>> Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's
>> kind of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not =
doing
>> any more jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the
>> character becomes motivated to take this one, last job.
>
>In fact it's such a "classic bit" that I am considering playing it as a =
solo
>game.
>
>Unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable mission!  : (
>
>I've got a couple of ideas about how to run it, though.  They might be =
of
>interest to the other solo players on the list.
>
><SNIP>
>
>Success would come from mobilising your own possible assets, finding out=
 who
>else is in the game, thwarting their plans, and working towards your own
>devastating exercise in turning the tables on the jerks blackmailing =
you.
>
>The plot itself would be a McGuffin hunt, shaped by "just in time" =
random
>generation, plus incidents of "a man with a gun enters the room".  It =
could
>be hopelessly convoluted and pointless, or it could be The Maltese =
Falcon.
>Or The Millenium Falcon.
>
>Now all I need is the time and energy to develop these ideas...

I find myself in the role of Mr. Movie.  For a pretty nasty story
along these lines, take a look at the movie "Commando".  Our hero is
blackmailed into taking on an assassination for the villians, but
escapes before the plane takes off for the destination.  He then has a
fixed amount of time to chase down villain minions, learn where the
major villain is hiding and rescue the hostage.  Not too much
opportunity for character development, but a good action story.  From
a gaming standpoint, the tracking and interrogation of the henchmen
and most of the fighting could be the solo adventure.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:28:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:28:33 -0600
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net> <p04330105b8d0233486e4@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3CAA76E1.BA4A2BC6@premier.net>


"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
> At 7:41 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
> >"David P. Summers" wrote:
> >>
> >>  In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
> >>  tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
> >>  arrays.....
> >
> >Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
> >masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....
> 
> But the tags would be unforgeable based on the penguins DNA!  Clearly
> this would be justified based on the threat that penguins pose.  (How
> could the Imperium  claim to control their territory if penguins roam
> free?)

Then the penguins merely graft a patch of non-penguin-waterfowl skin and
feathers to the tag attachment point (ideally waterfowl generally
engaged as tramp freighters or system defense birds), change the tag
code to suit the new DNA and proceed on their marauding ways.... ;-)

The struggle between measure and countermeasure is a never-ending one,
as neither side is likely to gain lasting superiority.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:26:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:26:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020402.202649.-8353.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:26:02 -0600 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
> General Turokan writes:
> >Open the pod bay doors Hal.
>  >I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now.
>  >Hal, open the pod bay doors.
>  >I'm sorry Dave.
>  >HAL! 
>  >Yes Dave.
>  >Hal, I've got to go to the bathroom!
>  >I'm sorry Dave
> 
> One [1] keyboard kill.
> 
> Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

Thanks Dan, my first keyboard kill scored.

Woooooooohooooooo!!

I guess I'm out of the Rookie status now.

Gee, how many more till I can earn Flight Officer?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:13:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:13:41 -0800
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <20020402194040.7979a578.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
 <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402201259.009ec960@mindspring.com>

At 07:40 PM 4/2/02 +0200, you wrote:
>Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
>food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
>predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
>for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world under
>the ice.

Jedi Jellyfish Under The Ice!  I love it!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets.
                                 - Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:44:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:44:29 +1000
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS That's just nasty...
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C178F5@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

From Paul:
I saw a special on the toob some time ago about these
two women who started a business cleaning up after the
police were done at murder scenes.  They contracted
either to the insurance co or mortgage co.  They would
go in and make a nasty place livable again.

Not my idea of fun employment.

From Me:
In Oz we have this funeral service that mostly employs female ex nurses
dressed in white. I forget their name (something like the white sisters -
but less Aryan than that). They figured that with emotions running high in
the immediate hours after a death that the ladies, who have skills in
calming people down, and who have come to collect the bodies, was a good
thing. I remember seeing an interview where the ladies would turn up and
relatives would be on the front lawn screaming over who was getting
'grandma's antique bed spread', and the ladies would have to calm things
down.  

I would think being on Highway patrol/Ambulance would be messed up. I
remember stats about suicides/depression amongst crews that regularly attend
road accidents being statistically aberrant (something like double their
less highway inclined colleagues). I think the some Police Services in Oz
roster members on attending road deaths for like only a month a year because
of this. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:45:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204030325.DFT00415@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402225752.027fbae0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon, that fiendish b*st*rd, wrote:
>laning says
>
>"I need rules, man"
>
>OK.  Let's do this on the assumption that there is a maximum
>size of ship that can be sent through jump space at each TL.
>
>Start at 1000 tons at TL 9 and work your way up to TL 15 (CT).
>
>That's the first rule.  You go next.


LOL!   :->

Umm, okay.

Canonically, the largest possible starship is 1,000,000 under CT LBB 5, and 
TL does not limit hull size itself.  Theoretical jump drive capacity goes 
to jump-2 at TL 11, then increases by one jump number for each TL increase 
after that.  TLs beyond TL 15 are still capped at jump-6 capacity.

You gave the largest standard-sized hull according to LBB 2 as the maximum 
size that be sent through jump space at TL 9.  For fun, let's give the 
largest hull that can be built in LBB 2 as the TL 10 limit.  That's 5,000 tons.

If it isn't rude, I'll skip ahead (may be more pleasantly viewed with 
fixed-width font):
TL 9     1,000 tons
TL 10    5,000 tons
TL 11   10,000 tons
TL 12   50,000 tons
TL 13  100,000 tons
TL 14  500,000 tons
TL 15  One million tons

This may confer additional large battle advantages in TCS to the side with 
a TL advantage.  Probably only small advantages at TL 12+.  Just so long as 
you can include a powerful spinal mount weapon, that should keep you in the 
running even if your opponent has a somewhat better spinal mount 
weapon.  Try to outnumber your enemy if you can't outclass him.

The larger ships will also have an armor advantage.  Reasonable people 
disagree over how significant armor is in TCS situations.

Only higher tech levels will be capable of using large planetoid hulls.

Let's see, the Imperial-average TL is 12.  If we assume that a significant 
number of Imperial naval vessels will be built and maintained at TL 12 
facilities, then the largest hull that they will be able to use for a 
starship is 50,000 tons.  50,000 tons times 13.5 meters^3 per ton means a 
volume of 675,000 cubic meters.  Which would mean a borg-like cube about 87 
meters per dimension.  Or a thousand meters long, by 27 meters high by 25 
meters wide.

A planetoid hull can use only 60,000 tons and the rest is "wasted" on 
structural integrity.  A buffered planetoid hull "wastes" 35%, so it would 
only be able to use 39,000 tons of its volume for ship components, cargo, 
and fuel.

Caveat:  I was going by first edition of LBB 5 - High Guard.  Second 
edition might have different numbers for hulls and jump capacities, but I 
doubt it.

Also, it bothers me that I'm adding another rule/table to keep track of 
during ship design.

Now for the thorny part.  What does one have to do to a ship to get it's 
full jump capability out of it?  Roll dice?  Spend more per ton of jump 
drive?  Install fancy computers?  Other?  And the details of implementing 
that.  Can the jump capability decline over time even though it has not 
been battle damaged and is being properly maintained?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:43:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:43:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS That's just nasty...
Message-ID: <200204030443.DFV01354@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hughes, Michael" says
>Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS That's just nasty...  
>To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
>
>I would think being on Highway patrol/Ambulance would be 
>messed up. I remember stats about suicides/depression 
>amongst crews that regularly attend road accidents being 
>statistically aberrant (something like double their
>less highway inclined colleagues). I think the some Police 
>Services in Oz roster members on attending road deaths for 
>like only a month a year because of this. 
>
"The Night Rider.  Remember him when you look up into the 
night sky..."
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:10:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:10:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <200204030510.DFV03007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning <laning@wizard.net>  
<snip size limits>

I think that limiting people to smaller ships really gives us 
the "small ship" Traveller.  So...

>
>Now for the thorny part.  What does one have to do to a ship 
>to get it's full jump capability out of it? 

For the first ten jumps (shakedown), roll 10+ to achieve the 
design jump rating, DM Average Engineering Skill Level of 
crew, maximum DM 4.  You must use refined fuel for these 
calibration jumps.  Failure results in a jump reduced by 1 
parsec per point failed.  This means that shipyards have to 
have rescue/refuelling ships ready to save shakedown failures.

Average the performance over the shakedown, and round up.  
This is the true Jump rating.  Note that in some cases, the 
military will not accept delivery of a ship that takes enough 
fuel for Jump-4 to only do a Jump-3.

Straight rule -- ships displacing 5000 tons or less roll for 
shakedown on a 6+, not 10+. 

Remedy:  Replace the jump drives.  See how expensive this is 
getting?

>Can the jump capability decline over time even though it has 
>not been battle damaged and is being properly maintained?
>

On the misjump roll, in addition to CT DMs
-1 DM for every 10 years of drive age.
-1 DM for every hit on the Jump drives if repaired
-2 DM for every hit on the Jump drives not repaired (running 
with battle damage)
-1 DM for every prior slight or minor misjump, even if 
repaired.
-4 DM for every prior major misjump (after repairs)
-1 DM if drive is not performing to design.

Misjump itself is not just "randomly trip to nowhere".

I see slight, minor, major, and catastrophic misjumps.

Fail misjump roll by 
1 = slight, ship misses destination by 1D6 x 0.1 parsec
2 = minor, same as jumping short during shakedown
3 = major, same as standard misjump
5 = catastrophic, you never come out of hyperspace

Note that some captains might feel it worth the risk.  Some 
old traders are probably the equivalent of the African Queen.

Replacing jump drives involves recalibration, which means the 
shakedown happens again.

I think that there should be a minimum separation distance 
when using jump drives.  Think of that B5 episode where they 
open a hyperspace portal from a White Star when they already 
were in an open gate.  Two ships too close to each other are 
already shredding space/hyperspace, and that has to have an 
effect.  Might make a good suicide maneuver for a smaller 
destroyer who is trying to kill a battlerider fleeing the 
field.

Additional Misjump DMs
- Jump Rating of Nearby Ship Using Jump Drive (100 km)
- Missile Factor if Nuclear Missiles hit during jump 
initiation

Unlike the so-called "jump flash", I really really like the 
way that going into/out of hyperspace looked in B5.  
Aesthetically pleasing.  Plus, everyone gets some warning 
that a jump point is forming.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 00:14:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <20020403134048.A15012@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402235745.00acdde0@pop.wizard.net>

>I'm sorry, I just don't see how making starships cheap erases all
>these things that factor into making a local culture significantly
>different from others.  More than that, I don't see how inflating the
>cost of inter*planetary* spacecraft adds anything at all to the
>variety within the Imperium, let alone differences outside it.

I don't thing making starships cheap _erases_ all the good and excellent 
factors that you cited from the equation.  But making them expensive does 
_enhance_ the isolation of cultures on different worlds.  I think it is a 
significant difference, and (maybe) arguably enough of a difference that 
prudent game designers wanted to take advantage of it.  I note that Loren 
has been with this game since before the beginning, and also is line editor 
for GT, and you say that jump drive prices in GT appear to be the same as 
in CT.  There may be a reason for that.

As you've already seen, I'm not that afraid of changing things.  I want to 
lower starship costs by a couple of orders of magnitude, mostly because I 
rely on those other good and excellent factors you cited.

I differ over whether interplanetary spacecraft have inflated costs in all 
versions of Traveller except for GT.  Perhaps it seems so to someone coming 
to Traveller first through GURPS Traveller, but bear in mind that GT is the 
fifth major version of Traveller and all four previous versions began with 
and maintained the same approximate price schedules for ship building.

Perhaps GT is deflationary, rather than all other Traveller 
inflationary?  :->  It's a point-of-view thing.  Only with the benefit of 
hindsight and being GT-centric do we come to the view of previous Traveller 
versions as being inflationary.  I have no problem with GT being so 
different on this, it's all a matter of taste.  Not even TNE managed to be 
really hard science, and all other versions even less so.  We're all 
arguing over angels on the head of a pin, really.  How much does it cost to 
build a power plant or a thruster plate?  Whatever I say it does, 
IMTU.  Whatever you say it does, IYTU.  :->

AFAIK, it will never be possible to build thruster plates, so who can say 
their cost.  AFAIK, nobody can say how cheap, safe, easy to operate fusion 
power plants can be made to provide incredibly abundant energy or how they 
would be designed and constructed, so who can say their cost.  Probably, 
there is no way to ever do it.  Put 'em in gumball machines if it makes YTU 
happy, is what I say.  Which should generate at least one good SF short story.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:18:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:18:19 -0800
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
In-Reply-To: <E16s3jE-0001h7-00@pluto2.runbox.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402211746.00ac7870@mail.verizon.net>

Me too!  ;-)

Charles McKnight
res0i3sf@verizon.net



At 03:28 PM 4/1/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Any chance of seeing these?
>
>Beth
>
> > I'd be interested to see this...
> >
> > In days past I used to write such manuals for a live-role-playing game
> > based on 25th century space marines. These included a medical manual, EOD
> > procedures and even the Uniform Code of Military Justice (a guaranteed
> > cure for insommnia!).
> >
> > Hugs and kisses,
> >
> > Mexal,
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:20:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:20:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
In-Reply-To: <200203310432.DAH01551@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402211958.00ab2190@mail.verizon.net>

Hi John,

I'd appreciate an opportunity to look it over.

Thanks!

Charles McKnight
res0i3sf@verizon.net

At 11:32 PM 3/30/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Just finished going through what will be a rather long
>document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units
>in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may
>differ.
>
>But..  I need more input.  I've just moved a current day
>document a fair number of years into the future (out to TL10,
>so far), and I would like to take it a bit further, say TL12.
>
>I am interested in anyone's input concerning what might be
>standard operating procedure (instructions to individual
>soldiers, teams, and platoons).  Some of the detail I have is
>down to the items to carry.
>
>I am especially interested in what might be SOP in regards to
>weapons, employment of specific weapons (such as, "always use
>the plasma gun to break contact").
>
>I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing
>to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages
>so far.
>________________
>Do you think my being stronger and
>faster has anything to do with my
>muscles in this place?...Do you think
>that's air that you are breathing?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:29:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:29:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20402.180059.2g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 02, 2002 06:00:59 PM
Message-ID: <200204030529.g335TAO02739@localhost.uia.net>

Leonard writes:
> Inertial *compensation* exists in Traveller. Inertial
> *suppression/neutralization* is a different matter.

So if you're crusing at 6G, and your inertial conpensators
crap out all of a sudden, watch out :-)

Probably there's some sort of automated cut-off for that
sort of situation, but it's odd that we don't see the floor/wall
field generators or their power usage in any of the design specs.
Then again, we don't see the light bulbs either, so perhaps they're
cheap and energy efficient.

> True inertia neutralization (or suppression) changes F=ma to F=kma
> where k is a constant (or variable) determined by the degree of
> neutralization. 
> 
> In effect, you are changing the inertial mass of the objects in
> question. If this was what was happening in Traveller, then you
> couldn't throw a ball across a compartment. As soon as you quit
> pushing, the air resistance would stop it. 

But the air molecules would also have a lower inertia, so they'd
be easier to sweep aside. In short, since both the air and the ball
are both effected equally by inertial suppression, they'd both behave
normally.

Imagine two balls on a pool table. Now imagine them made out of
styrofoam. Impart one with a given velocity, so it strikes it's
neighbor, and it should react just like a normal pool ball
(particularly if we take away the pool table and put them in
a vacuum... this isn't a cheat, all I'm saying is that the
kinetic energy transfer should result in the exact same outcome
regardless of the degree of inertial neutralization).

But, as you say in a later post, the energy of forces might seem
stronger under inertial suppression. Well, is that really the
case? A change in gravity should produce no difference, as
masses fall at the same speed, all other things being equal.
If I drop a feather in a vacuum, and a drop a rock in a
vacuum, they should both fall at the same speed. So I don't
think that changing inertia should effect how an object behaves
with respect to the gravitational force. What about the weak,
strong, and EM forces?

> Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
> things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects. 

In what way?

> There's also the question as to whether or not gravitational mass and
> inertial mass are the same thing. Last I heard, experiments had shown
> that they were the same to with 1 part in something like 10^12, but
> it's still an *assumption* that they are the same thing.

It may be that both inertia and gravity are linked to the zero
point field and/or space-time curvature. I don't know enough
physics to lend any ideas on the topic, but I can forward you
some articles on it pulled from New Scientist if you'd be
interested in a quick read.

> But assuming that you can live thru the process, then it'd be best to
> ignore all the effects at the sub-molar level (ie molecular and lower).

Can't do this.
 
> This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
> work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
> viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.

Except that your heart would also be of a lower apparent mass.
Instead of thinking of a normal pool ball hitting a styrofoam ball,
think of one styrofoam ball hitting another one. On the molecular
scale, I'm guessing that this would be more akin to what would be
happening. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:40:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:40:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> from "John T. Kwon" at Apr 02, 2002 05:22:44 PM
Message-ID: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>

> One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the 
> price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial 
> cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very 
> much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be 
> possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for 
> mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the 
> fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator 
> runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to 
> ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of 
> the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.

That and a lack of dirt. Actually, with cheap energy (ala fusion),
transportation costs would probably plummet as well. I remember
reading a book of short stories back in high school, and in one
of them, the author posited that nuclear fusion created an era
of plenty where people struggled to be good consumers (comsuming
as much of everything as they could so as to keep the econony
humming along... consuming became an occupation in itself). I
thought the conclusion was rather silly, but the question raised
(what would the world be like with cheap energy?) was certainly
interesting, and it's something which I haven't really seen
explored beyond the most superficial level. What would the
world be like if supply so outstripped demand that the vast
majority of people would no longer have to work. In a way, we're
living it (not meaning to start a flamewar over social policy, but
it's my intuition that welfare recipients today probably live
better than their hard working ancestors of centuries past), but
imagine the trend were extended such that everyone could live
in idle luxury, and only a small percentage of the population
need be employeed. What would that be like? I can't even scratch
the surface of potential ramifications. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:49:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:49:54 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <E16sWO7-0004I7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 02:04:52PM -0800
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16sWO7-0004I7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020402224954.B10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 02:04:52PM -0800, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> > (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> > 
> > 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
> 
> In Jeopardy mode:
> 
> Heretics for 100: Who is Galileo

I should note that the Catholic Church's issues with Galileo were not
his science but rather his theology.  The man took the heliocentric
idea (developed, IIRC, by a Catholic priest) and drew incorrect
theological conclusions therefrom.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Wouldn't you love to fill out _that_ report?  `Company asset #423423 was
lost while fighting the forces of evil.'                   --Chris Adams

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:53:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:53:56 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #372 - 42 msgs
In-Reply-To: <B8CF87E8.342AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 04:08:08PM -0800
References: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402155400.00a4c780@mailhost.efn.org> <B8CF87E8.342AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020402225356.C10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> "When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."

Still more proof that digest mode is a work of the devil...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The power of Satan is as nothing before the might of the Lord, so don't
go getting any ideas.                             --I Abyssinians 20:20

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:03:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:03:11 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:30:25PM -0500
References: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se> <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020402230311.D10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:30:25PM -0500, laning wrote:
>
> I am on both sides of the fence (I'm like Jeremy the Nowhere Man in
> 'Yellow Submarine' or the Scarecrow in 'The Wizard of Oz').  I
> sympathize with Harlan Ellison and others.  I also feel strongly
> that sharing knowledge has less value to the human race if the
> knowledge is only shared with those who can pay for it.  The
> Internet is a great democratizer of knowledge sharing.  (It's more a
> socialist thing than a democracy thing, but it's not generally
> acceptable in the States to express it that way.)

The ideal solution, of course, is for those of a moral bent to produce
their own, superior, IP and publish it openly.  Much like New Riders
do with their books (all, AFAIK, available under an open license) and
the GNU project do with theirs.  As unto the software hoarders, so
unto all IP hoarders.

Incidentally, the Open Content License <http://www.opencontent.org/>
makes provisions for author approval of significantly modified
versions (e.g. some of the nastier forms of fanfic), and for
interested parties to retrieve original versions of the work.

And yes, I release my Traveller code <http://travtrack.sf.net/> under
the GPL.  Thereby putting my money where my mouth is.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ubi non accusator, ibi non judex.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:11:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:11:14 +0100
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
References: <200204030529.g335TAO02739@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <007301c1dad6$5c23ef80$52200050@matt>

Just a though, but wouldn't the inertial compensation in Traveller consist
of using grav plates to create a grav pull of 1G les than the accelleration
on a reciprocal vector?

Assuming decks at right angles to thrust, if you accelerate at 6G create a
5G field in the ceiling... voil, effectively 1G felt by occupants... (other
orientations will require G-Plates to generate G at other angles, but heck,
they are made of Handwavium anyway...)

Or am I getting this completely wrong?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:21:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:21:10 -0700
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402223515.02da9ec0@192.168.0.1>; from eclipse@urbin.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 10:37:18PM -0500
References: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402223515.02da9ec0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020402232110.F10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 10:37:18PM -0500, Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> They already have their own official terrorist wings, ELF & ALF (Earth 
> Liberation Front & Animal Liberation Front) leading the FBI lists.

Who have, incidentally, killed people.  They are not heroes of any
sort or kind, and deserve to be hunted to the ends of the earth.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I have sustained a continual bombardment & cannonade for 24 hours & have
not lost a man.  The enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion,
otherwise the garrison are to be put to the sword if the fort is taken.
I have answered the demand with a cannon shot, and our flag still waves
proudly from the walls.  I shall never surrender nor retreat.
                                         --William B. Travis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:25:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:25:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Information, please:  Kians
Message-ID: <200204030622.g336MGh15548@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
...
>     Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
>kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
>pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
>Cavalry.
>     Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?

  JTAS #9, per the "JTAS Index" from Jim V., posted 1 Mar 2002?

  Grenadier did a mini for `em, too :>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:24:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:24:43 -0700
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>; from jimv@uia.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:40:53PM -0800
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020402232443.G10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:40:53PM -0800, jimv wrote:
>
> In a way, we're living it (not meaning to start a flamewar over
> social policy, but it's my intuition that welfare recipients today
> probably live better than their hard working ancestors of centuries
> past)

Hell, the great majority of the poor in the USA are better off than
the great majority of mankind ever.  Obesity is a greater problem than
starvation.  Most own colour TVs; many own cars.  The poverty of the
American is the wealth of just about anyone at just about any other
time in history.

Not that there are not those who suffer in real poverty, of course.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home and leave us in
peace.  We seek not your counsel, nor your arms.  Crouch down and lick
the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our
country men.                                        --Samuel Adams

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:44:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:44:34 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402225752.027fbae0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <014b01c1dadb$03f89400$52200050@matt>

> Canonically, the largest possible starship is 1,000,000 under CT LBB 5,
and

No, its 1,000,000dton+...

The tonnage listed for a size category is the lower bound, the upper bound
being one dton less than the lower bound of the next size category. For the
1,000,000 dTon category there is no next category, so no upper bound.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:58:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:58:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aliens Among Us
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEGACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

This week in JTAS online is an excellent article that I would like to
recommend to everyone:

Aliens Among Us, by James Maliszewski
Another installment of Travellers' Tales

If you don't subscribe to JTAS online, you should.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:46:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:46:56 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices [long]
References: <200204030510.DFV03007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAAB370.B2E1DE88@premier.net>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> laning <laning@wizard.net>
> <snip size limits>
> 
> I think that limiting people to smaller ships really gives us
> the "small ship" Traveller.  So...
> 
> >
> >Now for the thorny part.  What does one have to do to a ship
> >to get it's full jump capability out of it?
> 
> For the first ten jumps (shakedown), roll 10+ to achieve the
> design jump rating, DM Average Engineering Skill Level of
> crew, maximum DM 4.  You must use refined fuel for these
> calibration jumps.  Failure results in a jump reduced by 1
> parsec per point failed.  This means that shipyards have to
> have rescue/refuelling ships ready to save shakedown failures.
> 
> Average the performance over the shakedown, and round up.
> This is the true Jump rating.  Note that in some cases, the
> military will not accept delivery of a ship that takes enough
> fuel for Jump-4 to only do a Jump-3.

Based on this specification, and assuming an average Engineering skill
of 2 (rather generous, given the large engineer contingents on
cruiser-sized vessels), an AHL-class Fleet Intruder would almost
certainly fail to achieve the designed 5-parsec range.  With an average
Engineering skill of 2, an AHL would require a roll of 8+ per jump, for
10 jumps.  There is a 15/36 (41.67%) chance per jump of meeting spec;
this means that for each calibration jump, there is a 21/36 (58.33%)
chance of failing by at least one point.  The average failure will be by
2 points, and your formula gives no bonus for exceeding the required
roll.  Assuming average results, we can expect there to be four
successful rolls (J-5 for each) and six failed rolls (with an expected
average of J-3).  20 + 18 / 10 gives an expected average performance of
J-3.8 (rounded up to J-4); this is 80% of the design performance of an
AHL-class Fleet Intruder.  Note that ships designed for J-4 will
generally only meet J-3 (75% of spec).

To use a modern analogy: the design speed for a WW II-era
_Cleveland_-class CL (the most numerous cruiser class ever built) was 33
knots.  Given your formula, it would be surprising to find a _Cleveland_
that could do over 26.4 knots (80% of 33 knots).  Further, even if the
first ship, or even the first three ships, of the class made design
speed, each additional example of the class would still be likely to be
limited to 26.4 knots.  The above assumes that a _Cleveland_-class CL is
equivalent to a J-5 ship.  If we assume that a _Cleveland_ is equivalent
to a J-4 vessel, we can conclude that the majority of such ships could
only make 24.75 knots (as opposed to a design speed of 33 knots). 
Clearly, this degree of variation from spec is unacceptable for a
production run of ships.

I would suggest that these rules apply to prototype ships (including the
requirement to replace jump drives [presumably of a slightly different
design]).  Once the bugs have been worked out of a design (i.e., at
least one ship of the class has performed to-spec, and the operational
reports have been forwarded to the designing shipyard), ships of a given
class should receive a positive modifier (I'd suggest +4; with an
average Engineering skill of 2, this gives a failure chance of 1/12 per
jump, with 2/3 of failures being only -1) to each roll; ships built by
yards other than the designing yard would receive an additional -1 until
they had built 1D ships that met jump specifications.  A natural roll of
2 is an automatic failure, regardless of modifiers.  IMPORTANT: **Any
ships begun during development stage of a given class would be treated
as prototypes.**  Given this last stipulation, few designs would go into
series production until the prototype was debugged.  This would serve to
limit the proliferation of new designs during times of crisis.

My suggestions would mean that it would take some effort to work the
bugs out of a prototype.  Few ships would be built of a given class
until the bugs had been worked out, and the designing shipyard would
receive the bulk of orders.

I would also suggest that the building yard must bear 1/2 of the cost to
bring an in-production ship up to spec; the ordering authority would
bear the entire cost to develop a prototype.  Naturally, a new design
proposed by a shipyard (as opposed to a new design requested by a buyer)
would require the designing shipyard to bear the entire cost of
prototype development. Note that, by requiring the ordering authority to
bear at least some of the cost, the ordering authority is encouraged to
use highly-trained crews for development and shakedowns.  This reflects
the "test pilot" mentality of those involved in developing a new class
of ship....
> 
> Straight rule -- ships displacing 5000 tons or less roll for
> shakedown on a 6+, not 10+.

I would use this as the rule for prototype ships of this size;
production models would gain the additional +4 (-1 if built by a yard
other than the designing yard).  This would allow smaller ships to be
developed more quickly and produced more rapidly once developed. 
Obviously, designing new classes of large ships would be much more
costly than designing new classes of smaller vessels.

Amortized ships (i.e., those assigned a "type" designation in CT LBB2 or
Supp7 [Type A/A1 Free Trader, Type A2 Far Trader, Type C Mercenary
Cruiser, Type CE Close Escort, Type J Seeker, Type M Subsidized Liner,
Type R Subsidized Merchant, Type S Scout/Courier, Type T Patrol Cruiser,
Type X Xboat, Type XT Xboat Tender and Type Y Yacht]) would not require
shakedown rolls at all.  Equivalent standard ships published in non-CT
rulesets are considered as amortized.  A design not assigned a "type"
designation would be considered amortized once at least 1000 ships of
that class had been successfully (i.e., to-spec) built in that TU.
> 
> Remedy:  Replace the jump drives.  See how expensive this is
> getting?

Under my approach, this would be common for prototype ships (thus adding
to the development costs), as the best jump drive configuration was
worked out by experience. I would also suggest that jump drive
replacement during development would cost 150% of the normal jump drive
replacement cost (after all, you have to pull the old drive out and
possibly modify the ship to mount the new drive).  Production ships
would rarely need to have drives replaced, as the prototypes would have
already determined the optimal drive configuration for that class;
failures to make spec would thus be considered as resulting from
defective or (in the case of ships built by yards other than the
designing yard) inappropriate jump drives.  Cost in the latter case
would be 125% of normal drive replacement cost.
> 
> >Can the jump capability decline over time even though it has
> >not been battle damaged and is being properly maintained?
> >
> 
> On the misjump roll, in addition to CT DMs
> -1 DM for every 10 years of drive age.
> -1 DM for every hit on the Jump drives if repaired
> -2 DM for every hit on the Jump drives not repaired (running
> with battle damage)
> -1 DM for every prior slight or minor misjump, even if
> repaired.
> -4 DM for every prior major misjump (after repairs)
> -1 DM if drive is not performing to design.

I would allow +1 per ship overhaul (10x cost of annual maintenance, and
requiring 1D/2 months); this bonus can only cancel penalties listed
above.  Replacing the jump drive would cancel all penalties listed above
(but, as noted below, would require recalibration).  Government-owned
vessels would probably undergo overhaul at least every five years
(upgrades would be installed at this time, as applicable).
> 
> Misjump itself is not just "randomly trip to nowhere".
> 
> I see slight, minor, major, and catastrophic misjumps.
> 
> Fail misjump roll by
> 1 = slight, ship misses destination by 1D6 x 0.1 parsec
> 2 = minor, same as jumping short during shakedown
> 3 = major, same as standard misjump
> 5 = catastrophic, you never come out of hyperspace

While I like the idea of this table, I don't altogether care for the
results.  I would suggest that slight and minor misjumps include a
temporal option along with their spatial option.  In other words, the
referee could assign time distortions in lieu of (or along with) the
spatial errors listed above.  After all, missing by .6 parsec can be
even worse than missing by a full parsec; a full-parsec miss could put
the ship in proximity to a different system, while a .6 parsec misjump
guarantees that the ship will be about 2 light-years from any system
(given a 1-parsec hex map).
> 
> Note that some captains might feel it worth the risk.  Some
> old traders are probably the equivalent of the African Queen.
> 
> Replacing jump drives involves recalibration, which means the
> shakedown happens again.

Again, for production-series ships, I would allow the modifiers
suggested above.
> 
<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:15:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:15:49 +1000
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020403181549.A15722@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> imagine the trend were extended such that everyone could live in
> idle luxury, and only a small percentage of the population need be
> employeed. What would that be like?

I suspect that people's idea of "luxury" would then extend to things
that take work to achieve.  If on welfare you can afford a new car
every year, then those who are employed (possibly in a 20-hour working
week) might be able to afford a new *starship* each year.  Or at least
a new *luxury* transport instead of an average model that merely gets
you from A to B in the spartan style of the early 21st century
"luxury" limousines.


I'm more interested in the *next* step: what if nobody needs to work
at all?  That is, what if anything that humans can do, some form of
machines can do just as well without needing humans to tell them how?

Unlike a number of science fiction authors, I am *far* from convinced
that the result would be a utopian society where your every whim could
be satisfied.  Even in the extreme case where you've got a universal
machine capable of doing anything that a human can do, you still need
a *lot* of them to do anything that a society as a whole can do.  Even
in the case where you've got a universal factory, it still needs the
appropriate designs, materials, energy, and time.  At least one of the
first three would probably belong to someone else, and so you've still
got scarcity of some sort.  Chances are that time is also not
unlimited.

In fact, I can imagine that a society with such advanced technology
might simply discount the value of human labour to near-zero.  The
rate of return on invested capital might be quite good, but if you've
got nothing to begin with and can't earn much through work then you're
in a bit of a bind.  You might not starve, but you'll have to acquire
capital via other means if you want to join the set of wealthy people
who actually have stuff other people want.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:05:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:05:54 -0800
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
>
>I'm drawing a blank for "zh" speakers.  Places that are vaguely middle
>eastern or central asian come to mind for some reason, but nothing
specific.

Mandarin has a lot of "zh", but Zdetl is not a tonal language.  Some of the
Slavic languages (Polish comes to mind) have insane consonant strings like
Zdetl.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:05:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:05:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEGBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>
>I find myself in the role of Mr. Movie.  For a pretty nasty story
>along these lines, take a look at the movie "Commando".  Our hero is
>blackmailed into taking on an assassination for the villians, but

"You're a funny man, Smelly.  I like you.  Dat's vhy I kill you lest."
Colonel John Matrix was named Father of the Year by Soldier of Fortune
magazine that year.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:54:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:54:53 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEMAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Like I would guess many peoples did, 
MTU (tm) just grew, accreting layers 
and lumps as bright shiny things 
attracted my eyes.

Well I've decided to do a new one up right.
thinking about what final conditions I want 
then deciding what conditions are needed to 
create them.  

What I want

a distant and non intrusive Imperium, with a 
vaguely libertarian outlook.

a low powered environment, PC's are low level 
players on the galactic scene.

The campaign is on a frontier, a la Spinward
 Marches

book two sized and powered ships are normal
(without necessarily using LBB two starship 
design), economic and physical forces work 
against large ships.

Mil spec toys are rare

Prices and rewards are at a level where 
a party could in game earn enough money to 
make down payment on a used starship and 
then keep up payments.

the interstellar iconology is healthy enough 
that a backwater system is looking at 10 or 
so ships a week (recalling that most ships 
tend to be small)

Mega-corps exist, but are far more important 
along main trade routes and major systems.

Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop 
2 worlds


Conditions

The imperium is interested in external defense, 
surveying and mapping, stable currency, internal 
communications.

Imperial taxes are very low.

Imperial currency is very stable, currency drafts are
excepted Imperium wide.  Local currency is
much less flexible and much less used.  

As an exception to the libertarianism of the Imperium, 
building large (spinal mount sized ) weapons is very 
restricted.  Likewise, brute force invasions of 
neighboring worlds is discouraged.

Most systems military is Coast Guard, National Guard 
level stuff.  They are oriented to stopping raiders 
and internal affairs.  

The Scout service is canon and very important, both 
as a survey operation and a communications office

While they can feed them selves, few systems are fully 
self supporting in other areas, lacks and shortfalls 
are usually obtainable within a susbsector, with smaller 
ships this tends to pump up ship traffic.

Development is concentrated in most cases to the main planet 
in system, the rest is unpatrolled and poorly explored.

Way / refueling stations exist in marginal systems where there 
are no colonies.  These system are very poorly explored, and 
lacking nice places for humans to live.

The average campaign world is TL 12 and are lower end 
population, 5 - 8 (Population is the population living 
in system, on both sides of the of the XT line and 
including permanently stationed troops.  Any fancy 
arrangement is described in the system listing)

High tech and high population world are hubs supporting 
surrounding lower tech and pop worlds.  Trade is usually 
surrounding -- Hub, and Hub -- Hub

Absent local conditions against it, most worlds have 
about a type C space port.  Spaceports have the maintenance 
ability one level higher then their build ability. 

Ships last a long time, absent combat damage and with 
proper maintenance, a 200 year old freighter is still 
functional.

Technology is stable, the rough edges have been 
worn off most standard designs centuries ago.

The Imperium makes public domain standardized plans for 
many thing available.  While local peculiarities exist, 
a surprisingly large number of items are standardized 
imperium wide. (unless of course it is for a plot point)

Pirates exists, not as ECMs but as semi organized groups 
in the fringes of the system.  A lot of time and effort 
of the local navies is spent chasing them down.
________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:34:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:34:26 +0200
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403123426.04d59074.jenry023@student.liu.se>

laning wrote:
> By the way, Jens, have you read Hal Clement's 'Mission of Gravity'?  A 
> great example of intelligent alien life forms evolving on a world
extremely 
> different from Terra.  A just plain extreme world, in fact.  Clement
opens 
> the hood and lets us peer into a lot of the alien building he does.  The

> book's a classic, in fact.

Nope, I haven't. And I doubt that the library has that book in stock. I've
placed it on the list of books to look for now, though.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:49:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:49:22 +1000
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Robots from Dragon/Book 8
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17904@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Hey TMLers,

I recently crunched a remake of the Dragon Article on Robots using elements
from Book 8. I have even done up about 10 or so bots, in the theme of
popular Sci Fi bots (not C3P0 though...) from da movies. Prices are cheaper
generally than Book 8, and there is much hand waving for all you gearheads
out there (so sue me). Skill resolution has been modified to fit my
mechanics but I would think is easier enough to engineer for whatever game
system you use to run Traveller. 

If anyone is interested email me off list

Mikey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:31:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:31:27 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices [long]
Message-ID: <200204031231.DGL00640@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

John Groth says
<snip good rules for prototypes> 

Sounds like a good way to keep the lid on ship size, and 
perhaps even on the total number of ships.

I am also wondering:  there are more than a few nations that 
could probably "afford" to build an aircraft carrier, but 
many of them don't, or are retiring those that they have.  I 
think that the costs of maintenance for larger ships is more 
significant than for a smaller ship.  

Any ideas on how to make the larger ship more expensive to 
maintain?  The USS Kennedy is a recent case in point.  It can 
still cruise around, but it doesn't take much to make it 
not "mission capable".
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:34:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:34:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] pbem starting
Message-ID: <200204031234.DGL00812@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Now taking players for a pbem set in the Corridor area.
CT rules, with some modifications.
If you are interested, please e-mail jtkwon@jtkgroup.com.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:12:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 08:12:11 -0500
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403080940.027e7b68@192.168.0.1>

At 09:40 PM 4/2/2002 -0800, jimv wrote:
> > One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the
> > price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial
> > cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very
> > much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be
> > possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for
> > mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the
> > fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator
> > runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to
> > ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of
> > the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.

Actually one of the cool things about T4 was a short bit about
how one lived at the poverty line in a TL C society.

Even though they lived very well compared to the poor in a TL 9 (or less) 
society,
you still had Haves and Haves Nots, so there was "Class" friction that could
be exploited.

>That and a lack of dirt. Actually, with cheap energy (ala fusion),
>transportation costs would probably plummet as well. I remember
>reading a book of short stories back in high school, and in one
>of them, the author posited that nuclear fusion created an era
>of plenty where people struggled to be good consumers (comsuming
>as much of everything as they could so as to keep the econony
>humming along... consuming became an occupation in itself). I
>thought the conclusion was rather silly, but the question raised
>(what would the world be like with cheap energy?) was certainly
>interesting, and it's something which I haven't really seen
>explored beyond the most superficial level. What would the
>world be like if supply so outstripped demand that the vast
>majority of people would no longer have to work. In a way, we're
>living it (not meaning to start a flamewar over social policy, but
>it's my intuition that welfare recipients today probably live
>better than their hard working ancestors of centuries past), but
>imagine the trend were extended such that everyone could live
>in idle luxury, and only a small percentage of the population
>need be employeed. What would that be like? I can't even scratch
>the surface of potential ramifications. -Jim
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem
among the poor than starvation. That's something that
would have been science fiction to anybody who grew up
before, say, 1900, or even 1950
-------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:32:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:32:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>
References: <20020402191127.6b66c4f3.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020402201432.444efd17.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Classic Traveller wrote:
> When it is completed I will publish it in PDF. That way it will
definitely
> see print "see print", if it is worth the paper to print it on ;)

No problem. I'll print it at the university for free  ;-)

How much material are you aiming at? What kind?

I imagine TAS could be used as an alternative to the intrigues among the
noble families. After all, the idle rich are always a good source for
strife. Just look at the old-school soap operas (Dallas, Falcon Crest,
etc) out there...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
Message-ID: <E16smpE-0002tC-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

If you listen very carefully at the end of the recording, with the right fi=
ltering you can just hear:
<RECORDING ON>
> PC's on a derelict free trader:
> PC1: "Hmmm, blood everywhere but no bodies"
> PC2: "The only thing on the manifest is penguins, yet
> the cargo bay is empty"
> PC3: "Who would slaughter an entire ships crew for
> penguins?"
> PC2: "They also took the small craft"
> PC1: "Whats that noise?"
> PC3: "What noise?"
> PC1: "Sounded like flapping of some kind"
> PC2: "Lets get back to the ship"
> PC1: "Okay lets go. <speaking into com> Hey Samantha,
> light up the drives where out of here"
> <No response>
> PC1: "Samantha?, do you read?"
> PC2: "Hey wheres Jimmy?"
> PC1: <Spinning around to search for Jimmy> "Jimmy,
> jimmy?"

(soft singing, low voice) Scooby duby do...

> <END RECORDING>
>=20
> James
>=20

Beth


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:42:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:42:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEMAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403103415.00a8a750@pop.wizard.net>

John-Martin describes his new world order Traveller universe.  Which sounds 
awfully like CT when there were still only a few books published.

You may want to go with CT, and a few house rules.  Maintenance capability 
of starports being one higher than construction capability, for 
instance.  Which sounds like a pretty good rule.  Take CT material 
published from Trillion Credit Squadron onwards with a grain of salt, or 
even ignore it.  TCS economics tend to make the Imperium and other stellar 
empires be too omnipresent and powerful for the universe you 
described.  You may be happiest with the Azhanti High Lightning as one of 
the most important warships of its time, or even the Kinunir.  Take Book 5 
- High Guard out of the ship construction rules entirely.  That would limit 
the largest ships to 5,000 tons.  Or use Book 5 only for 
referee-constructed ships.  Although you did say you don't want to use LBB 
2, either.  Sounds like you will need either extensive mods of existing 
rules or to write your own from scratch.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEMAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <20020403155041.62193.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  Please see below for comments......
  >>
--- John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Like I would guess many peoples did, 
> MTU (tm) just grew, accreting layers 
> and lumps as bright shiny things 
> attracted my eyes.
> 
> Well I've decided to do a new one up right.
> thinking about what final conditions I want 
> then deciding what conditions are needed to 
> create them.  
> 
> What I want
> 
> a distant and non intrusive Imperium, with a 
> vaguely libertarian outlook.
> 
  >>
  I'm there.....
  >>
>
> a low powered environment, PC's are low level 
> players on the galactic scene.
> 
> The campaign is on a frontier, a la Spinward
>  Marches
>
  >>
  Kewl-ness......
  >>
> 
> book two sized and powered ships are normal
> (without necessarily using LBB two starship 
> design), economic and physical forces work 
> against large ships.
>
  >>
  Very cool....
  >>
> 
> Mil spec toys are rare
>
  >>
  Hmmm, verging on uh-oh....
  >>
> 
> Prices and rewards are at a level where 
> a party could in game earn enough money to 
> make down payment on a used starship and 
> then keep up payments.
>
  >>
  Given that the starship economy of Book 2
essentially encourages charactors to skip on their
creditors, I'm SO there....
  >>
>
> the interstellar iconology is healthy enough 
> that a backwater system is looking at 10 or 
> so ships a week (recalling that most ships 
> tend to be small)
>
  >>
  See the 'coda' below under 'Conditions'....
  >>
> 
> Mega-corps exist, but are far more important 
> along main trade routes and major systems.
>
  >>
  OK...but you're hamstringing a good plot device...
  >>
> 
> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop 
> 2 worlds
>
  >>
  .....YES!!!FINALLY!!!..... 
  >>
>
> 
> Conditions
> 
> The imperium is interested in external defense, 
> surveying and mapping, stable currency, internal 
> communications.
> 
> Imperial taxes are very low.
> 
> Imperial currency is very stable, currency drafts
> are
> excepted Imperium wide.  Local currency is
> much less flexible and much less used.  
> 
> As an exception to the libertarianism of the
> Imperium, 
> building large (spinal mount sized ) weapons is very
> restricted.  Likewise, brute force invasions of 
> neighboring worlds is discouraged.
> 
  >>
  The above points are already extant in the 3I,
IIRC......
  >>
>
> Most systems military is Coast Guard, National Guard
> level stuff.  They are oriented to stopping raiders 
> and internal affairs.  
>
  >>
  That's how I've always viewed planetary forces...
  >>
> 
> The Scout service is canon and very important, both 
> as a survey operation and a communications office
>
  >>
  No worries here....
  >>
> 
> While they can feed them selves, few systems are
> fully  self supporting in other areas, lacks and 
> shortfalls are usually obtainable within a 
> susbsector, with smaller ships this tends to pump up
> ship traffic.
> 
> Development is concentrated in most cases to the
> main planet 
> in system, the rest is unpatrolled and poorly
> explored.
> 
  >>
  CODA: Why? At the level of shipping you're talking
about, the only way to ship useful quantities of
product is by BIG carriers(e.g., LASH-type
freighters). 

  It's a lot more economical for a system government
to either encourage or subsidize[sp?] outer system
developement, either by gov't contractors or
(preferably) by 'native' belter-type operator's.
  >>
>
> Way / refueling stations exist in marginal systems
> where there 
> are no colonies.  These system are very poorly
> explored, and 
> lacking nice places for humans to live.
>
  >>
  Who pays for this? The only way to make it
economical enough to be of commercial utility (vs
skimming) is to lower the cost of the fuel provided by
the station's. If they (the ship-driver's) are charged
'market rates', the cost of this fuel will drive up
shipping costs to the point where merchants and
consumers at the recieving end won't be willing to
pay.

  See 'CODA'....
  >>
>
> The average campaign world is TL 12 and are lower
> end 
> population, 5 - 8 (Population is the population
> living 
> in system, on both sides of the of the XT line and 
> including permanently stationed troops.  Any fancy 
> arrangement is described in the system listing)
>
  >>
  Why so low?
  >>
> 
> High tech and high population world are hubs
> supporting 
> surrounding lower tech and pop worlds.  Trade is
> usually 
> surrounding -- Hub, and Hub -- Hub
> 
  >>
  That's how it usually runs.....
  >>
>
> Absent local conditions against it, most worlds have
> about a type C space port.  Spaceports have the
> maintenance 
> ability one level higher then their build ability. 
>
  >>
  This has always been my biggest saw about starports
in Trav: Why are there so many 'D' and 'E' class
ports? With a comparitivley small amount of time and
money, upgrading to at least 'C-' is a pretty small
chore......
  >>
>
> Ships last a long time, absent combat damage and
> with 
> proper maintenance, a 200 year old freighter is
> still 
> functional.
>
  >>
  That's how I always saw these ships....
  >>
> 
> Technology is stable, the rough edges have been 
> worn off most standard designs centuries ago.
> 
> The Imperium makes public domain standardized plans
> for 
> many thing available.  While local peculiarities
> exist, 
> a surprisingly large number of items are
> standardized 
> imperium wide. (unless of course it is for a plot
> point)
> 
  >>
  I'm OK with the stability part. Isn't there
something in GT about a standardised set of plans?
  >>
>
> Pirates exists, not as ECMs but as semi organized
> groups 
> in the fringes of the system.  A lot of time and
> effort 
> of the local navies is spent chasing them down.
> 
  >>
  Of course.
  >>
> 
> jml
> 
  >>
  MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
Message-ID: <200204031552.DGR04348@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Beth" says
>> PC3: "Who would slaughter an entire ships crew for
>> penguins?"

Penguins is practically chickens.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 08:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] inheritance Imperial style
Message-ID: <200204031616.DGS00004@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Was just looking at various types of inheritance in history, 
and two were contrasted.  Gavelkind, where all sons share in 
the inheritance equally, and primogeniture, where only the 
eldest gets the goods.

Apparently a driving force behind land acquisition, and when 
the land ran out, the seizure of land from others, was 
primogeniture.  It also provided knights for the Crusade.

"A noble class dependent for its power and position upon the 
possession of land - or, to be more accurate, it's right to 
collect taxes and services from the residents of the land - 
had emerged over the previous century, and the population of 
that hereditary class was growing. As long as the Frankish 
monarchs had continued conquering new lands, there were 
always new districts to distribute to the nobility. Now that 
expansion had ceased, however, the nobles began to suffer 
from "land-hunger" and began to evolve into something 
different from what the had originally been. They took 
complete control of the lands they had been appointed to 
govern in the offices of count, duke, and margrave and to 
treat them as personal possessions. They began to demand 
payment in land for helping one or the other side in the 
incessant civil wars. When the Carolingian monarchs no longer 
had royal lands to give in exchange for support, the fighting 
nobles took over the lands of the churches and the 
monasteries that the central government - such as it was - 
could no longer protect. Even so, they could not continue 
dividing their lands into smaller and smaller pieces. During 
the course of the ninth and early tenth centuries, in a 
process that can be discerned only dimly, the aristocracy of 
western Europe abandoned the deeply-rooted custom of 
gavelkind and replaced it with primogeniture ("first-born"), 
a system in which the core of a family's lands was kept 
intact and passed automatically to the eldest son. In this 
fashion, the empire was shattered into hundreds of 
practically independent districts, each owned and ruled by a 
local strong man in command of a small body of fighting men 
and a castle.

Such a state cannot maintain a navy, so the remnants of the 
Carolingian empire were easy pickings for sea-borne raiders 
from Scandinavia (the Vikings) and from North Africa (the 
Saracens), as well as mounted raiders from central Asia (the 
Magyars, or Hungarians)."

Given the nature of our maps in Traveller, could an 
empire "run out of land"?  Could the current empire be 
described as "hundreds of independent districts, each owned 
and rules by a local strong man (or government) in command of 
a small body of fighting men and a castle (a small army, 
navy, and starbases)"?

I don't think I need the Virus to have the empire fall into 
another Long Night. Piracy at that point might be any ship 
with a weapon.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Wed Apr  3 08:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller PBeMs
In-Reply-To: <B8CF3437.341C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CABA198.12635.5425D9@localhost>

I just started in one, but I'm not the GM.  The GM is Charlotte 
Manton <Charlotte.Manton@btopenworld.com>, and she said 
she's definitely willing to accept new players.  I don't think the 
game has a web page yet, though, so ask her if you have 
questions.

-- Rachel Kronick
.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Wed Apr  3 08:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <F306Upm0RnzXotJAadV00014e0d@hotmail.com>

David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>On rule of thumb in security is that the hard you make it for
>unwarranted intrusion, the harder you make it for authorized people

A corralary to this: the harder you make it for authorized
people, the more likely it is that the authorized people will
disable the security.  If all your passwords are twenty-character
random alphanumeric strings, expect to see sticky notes with the
passwords written on them stuck everywhere the passwords will
be used.  If that retinal scanner makes the crew sit through
three or four rescans before it lets them in, or mistakes them
for a terrorist a couple times a week, expect the retinal scanner
to be bypassed before the ship comes out of its first jump.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:06:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:06:11 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CAB365A.5070001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>or look up flux compressors 
>>
>>The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures 
>>I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius 
>>kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.
>>
>>Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find
>>anything.  OK, I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite
>>terrorist building these? --
> 
> 
> That's a very good question.  I've read speculation that they may 
> have been used in some places, but I'd think the evidence would be 
> pretty obvious (lots of fried computers).  At that point, I'm guessing 
> that most terrorists want to see blood far more than lost data.

There is speculation that they have been used, but in the commission of 
crimes. (good way to whack alarm systems.)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:07:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:07:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <ba.23b5ccdc.29dc9067@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 20:00:27 GMT Daylight Time, thing@moonwise.com 
writes:


> > Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs
> > starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're
> > borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.
> >
> > The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not
> to
> > let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can
> probably
> > see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information
> than
> > you wish to give out.
> 
> Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
> intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low 
> power
> biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.  If the
> security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
> vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
> other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.

Actually I was thinking of MRI or sound based scanning systems. Plus the 
ability of a device to scan through a visor in a variety of EM spectrums and 
actually see what its looking at.

Its not necessarily eay to fool the system if it "knows" the vacc suit or 
expects the operator to use a code to validate the data. I'm not saying that 
biometric data alone will be used - I agree that that would be overly simple 
and easy to defeat. I would expect at least a dual system of biometrics and 
code or key (or both). 

> 
> > If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems
> for
> > opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a 
> glitch
> > then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to
> a
> > specialist lock-smith.
> 
> If there is a mechanical system for opening the door than it comes down to
> cutting the power to the doors locking mechanism so that you can operate 
> the
> manual.  This usually wouldn't be too difficult.
> 
> G.D.D.
> 
It's not too difficult to conceive of a lockout that knows the difference 
between a power failure and a someone cutting the supply to the locks 
mechanism. It may be as simple as having a number of different sensors 
located around the door. A person wishing to cut the power *only* to the 
doors mechanism must therefore be able to, effectively, remove the door from 
its setting. If they can do that then a lock isn't going to stop them getting 
in :).

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 20:00:27 GMT Daylight Time, thing@moonwise.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs<BR>
&gt; starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're<BR>
&gt; borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not<BR>
to<BR>
&gt; let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can<BR>
probably<BR>
&gt; see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information<BR>
than<BR>
&gt; you wish to give out.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low<BR>
intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power<BR>
biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.&nbsp; If the<BR>
security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like<BR>
vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most<BR>
other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Actually I was thinking of MRI or sound based scanning systems. Plus the ability of a device to scan through a visor in a variety of EM spectrums and actually see what its looking at.<BR>
<BR>
Its not necessarily eay to fool the system if it "knows" the vacc suit or expects the operator to use a code to validate the data. I'm not saying that biometric data alone will be used - I agree that that would be overly simple and easy to defeat. I would expect at least a dual system of biometrics and code or key (or both). </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
&gt; If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems<BR>
for<BR>
&gt; opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch<BR>
&gt; then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to<BR>
a<BR>
&gt; specialist lock-smith.<BR>
<BR>
If there is a mechanical system for opening the door than it comes down to<BR>
cutting the power to the doors locking mechanism so that you can operate the<BR>
manual.&nbsp; This usually wouldn't be too difficult.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
It's not too difficult to conceive of a lockout that knows the difference between a power failure and a someone cutting the supply to the locks mechanism. It may be as simple as having a number of different sensors located around the door. A person wishing to cut the power *only* to the doors mechanism must therefore be able to, effectively, remove the door from its setting. If they can do that then a lock isn't going to stop them getting in :).<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204030510.DFV03007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017853751.1367.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> laning <laning@wizard.net>  
> <snip size limits>
> 
> I think that limiting people to smaller ships really gives us 
> the "small ship" Traveller.

Unfortunately, it gives us the '50,000 small ships' traveller, which is in fact
worse for roleplaying than the '500 big ships' traveller.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215009.0283aec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017853921.54.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> Leonard Erickson, in replying to JimV said:
> 
> >BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
> >higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
> >artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
> >playing "grav pong" with hijackers.
> Sounds like we see it the same way.  Although +6 gees to -6 gees in less 
> than one second should be sufficient grav pong to deal with most hijackers.

I prefer to see grav compensation as being a side effect of the drives, which
means grav pong is impossible (well, artificial gravity can still be used, but
one can easily claim that it takes a while to cycle).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se> <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CAB3843.2060604@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
>>reprinted in various places.
> 
> 
> I Google'd around, but all I could find was webpages mentioning it. It
> would seem that it is available in various paper reprints, but not on the
> web. Sad...


I have at least one of them at home. If it's easily accessible, I'll dig 
it out and see what's there.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (long) Re: inheritance Imperial style
In-Reply-To: <200204031616.DGS00004@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403112658.025000c0@pop.wizard.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
>Was just looking at various types of inheritance in history,
>and two were contrasted.  Gavelkind, where all sons share in
>the inheritance equally, and primogeniture, where only the
>eldest gets the goods.
>
>Apparently a driving force behind land acquisition, and when
>the land ran out, the seizure of land from others, was
>primogeniture.  It also provided knights for the Crusade.
IIRC, the Albigensian Crusade was the first Crusade.  It is probably most 
famous nowadays for providing us with the motto, "Kill them all, God will 
know his own."  People nowadays usually say 'sort them out' instead of 
'know his own', but it amounts to the same thing.

The reason for the famous quote was that the clergy accompanying the French 
knights were dismayed when they saw the French indiscriminately killing 
Albigensians who were quite possibly Christian.  Or even obviously 
Christian.  The French were largely motivated by wanting to take the land 
from their Albigensian neighbors, and the blessing from the Pope was merely 
the thinnest of rationalizations for their actions.  Once they were in the 
heat of action, they were even less concerned about needing a rationalization.

<<<snippage of a interesting passage too long to bear repeating>>>
>Given the nature of our maps in Traveller, could an
>empire "run out of land"?  Could the current empire be
>described as "hundreds of independent districts, each owned
>and rules by a local strong man (or government) in command of
>a small body of fighting men and a castle (a small army,
>navy, and starbases)"?
>
>I don't think I need the Virus to have the empire fall into
>another Long Night. Piracy at that point might be any ship
>with a weapon.

I agree that the threat of another Long Night exists without having to 
resort to a gross deus ex machina like the Virus.  (And I do mean 
gross.)  But most land within the Imperium belongs to the local 
government.  The Imperium only holds legal sway over the space between the 
stars and planets.  The Emperor can award fiefs, and they can be inherited, 
but I'm sure they very long ago ran out of land that could thus be owned 
and inherited.

What the Imperium possesses and the late medieval Europeans lacked are a 
sophisticated and robust economic system, and nonhereditary institutions 
(megacorps and the Navy) that share power with the nobility.  This things 
make all the difference.

The existence of much more complex and sophisticated economic mechanisms 
than tenth-century Europeans had means that land inheritance is not the 
main life blood of economics.  Extensive and fairly efficient markets exist 
for virtually everything, and capital is extremely liquid.  Land tends to 
be held by corporations, and if a corporation folds, there are bankruptcy 
regulations to oversee the distribution of assets, which go immediately 
back into the economy instead of being held closely held by one family.

The Emperors and Empresses make a point of retaining ultimate ownership of 
fiefs they award, and they can resume direct control of them at will.  A 
local noble who attempts to resist that will have to contend with a very 
powerful central Navy.  Not even in the case of the excellently written 
LandGrab of Vincennes can locals seriously hope to defy the Emperor, 
because of this powerful Navy.  Nobles jockey for power and influence over 
the Navy, and in times gone by there were even a series of Barracks 
Emperors who seized the iridium throne simply because they thought they 
could get away with it.  The Barracks Emperors each relied on fleets of the 
supposedly central Navy.

The emperors since have learned the lesson and maintain strong control of 
the Navy.  When the civil war following Strephon's assassination resulted 
in the Navy being fractured, that's only because the authors had gone to 
great pains to create the conditions for honest doubt among admirals over 
exactly who had the best legal claim.  Under normal conditions the Navy 
remains loyal to the throne.  The way I understand it, Dulinor's beef with 
Strephon was that he was encouraging sector dukes to become too powerful 
and that would lead to the danger of a breakup or civil war.  Ironically, 
Dulinor precipitated exactly what he said he was trying to 
prevent.  Although I suspect his ego clouded his judgment and his motives 
were less pure than he himself believed.

Power and ownership of assets are divided between the throne, corporations, 
and system governments.  Economic life is diverse, active, and fully 
developed.  The division of power and assets acts somewhat like the famous 
system of checks and balances between the three branches of government in 
the US.  The mature and sophisticated economic life prevents assets from 
becoming concentrated more and more into the hands of an hereditary few 
(unless you take your economics with a lump of Marxism :-) and thus 
becoming a scarcer and scarcer resource with this trend creating conflict 
over the scarcity.

In the absence of outside threat, the greatest danger that persists inside 
the Imperium is in its only major institution that is completely 
hereditary--selecting who sits on the throne.  A series of poor emperors, 
or even just one, could potentially wreak havoc on the other institutions 
that are the main props of the system.

I have demonstrated that the Imperium is held together and fluorishes 
because of its inherently stabilizing structure, and its good fortune to 
have sufficient population and technology and legal institutions that 
promote an economic structure capable of keeping the healthy flow of 
liquidity to all the centers of power within the Imperium.  Not bad, 
considering it's just rationalizing a _very_ fictional science fiction 
backstory that was mostly created as an excuse for roleplaying games that 
visit thousands of different worlds and thus thousands of different science 
fiction stories.  :->

Oh.  The nature of the maps in Traveller.  Megacorps should be falling all 
over themselves to expand into the areas beyond the frontier and either 
create their own puppet empires or bring them into the Imperial fold.  And 
they should be falling all over themselves and fighting each other for 
control and exploitation of resources in the bazillions of neglected 
"backwaters" within Imperial borders.  It should be something like the 
story of the American West from the advent of the railroad through the end 
of the century.  All the canonical indications are that unexploited planets 
tend to remain so for decades and centuries at a time.  That bothers me.  I 
think the original idea was to provide not just Victorians in space, but 
also a version of the wild and woolly frontier that the real Victorians had 
in the American West and to lesser degrees elsewhere around the 
globe.  That was to set the stage for referees to run their own campaigns 
that saw dramatic and interesting changes sweep across the map, with the 
players being part of all that.  As time progressed and more backstory of 
the Imperium was written things became more static.  Probably, the original 
strategic vision was somewhat lost in the tactics of customers clamoring 
for more information about the Imperium and places within the 
Imperium.  Pure speculation of course.  My record on pure speculation is 
less than reliable.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] inheritance Imperial style
References: <200204031616.DGS00004@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB3D63.2000904@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Such a state cannot maintain a navy, so the remnants of the 
> Carolingian empire were easy pickings for sea-borne raiders 
> from Scandinavia (the Vikings) and from North Africa (the 
> Saracens), as well as mounted raiders from central Asia (the 
> Magyars, or Hungarians)."
> 
> Given the nature of our maps in Traveller, could an 
> empire "run out of land"?  Could the current empire be 
> described as "hundreds of independent districts, each owned 
> and rules by a local strong man (or government) in command of 
> a small body of fighting men and a castle (a small army, 
> navy, and starbases)"?
> 
> I don't think I need the Virus to have the empire fall into 
> another Long Night. Piracy at that point might be any ship 
> with a weapon.

You just described the Aslan itahei.

Pirates at that point arent' pirates, but raiders, in the sense that 
they attack planets not other ships, which is an *entirely* different 
kettle of fish.

However, if you defind 'land' as 'someplace where you collect taxes from 
production thereon' The 3I will not run out of land anytime soon.

In addition to the vast number of underpoulated systems, belts, etc, 
'new' land can be constructed at any time, just about anywhere, via 
building space habs.

Building O'Neill-style colonies is cheap in Traveller.

Look at the costs of an asteroid hull, sometime...amazingly cheap.

Then, the scenario you described is amply laid out in 'Hard Times', and 
on one of the mother sources of Traveller, 'Space Vikings' by H. Beam 
Piper.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <3CAB365A.5070001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <B8D08114.346CC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/3/02 9:05 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

> 
> There is speculation that they have been used, but in the commission of
> crimes. (good way to whack alarm systems.)

Aside from theory, has anyone actually tested a device of this kind?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <B8D08114.346CC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB45FC.5060802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 4/3/02 9:05 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:
> 
> 
>>There is speculation that they have been used, but in the commission of
>>crimes. (good way to whack alarm systems.)
> 
> 
> Aside from theory, has anyone actually tested a device of this kind?
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.

I remember reading someone's account of making and setting one off. He 
described stopping clocks and other electrical and electronic devices at 
a range of approx 1/4 mile. IIRC it was rather directional.

I don't, however, remember the reference, whether it was on the web or 
the list.

However, since making a pipe bomb is an integral part of making one of 
these devices, I suspect people are rather circumspect regarding their , 
ahh, experimentation along these lines...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402205809.027d9ba0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CABBC5E.30314.BCBF6D@localhost>

Hi all!

I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists 
Table (UTT), where you roll and a result like "Antagonist turns out 
to be Protagonist's long-lost relative" or "20 drunken goons ambush 
the PC on the way home" or whatever come up.  we could make a 
big UTT with a thousand or so entries so repeats are rare...

-- Rachel


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <182.62a974a.29dca666@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 22:58:51 GMT Daylight Time, 
ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:


> TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.  
> One
> assumes the neutron problems have been solved.
> 

Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing "up" 
to He4 :)

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 22:58:51 GMT Daylight Time, ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.&nbsp; One<BR>
assumes the neutron problems have been solved.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing "up" to He4 :)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_182.62a974a.29dca666_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
References: <182.62a974a.29dca666@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB4D53.2FCA27E3@premier.net>

Charles writes:

> TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.  One
> assumes the neutron problems have been solved.

Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing
"up" to He4 :)

Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
opposed to deuterium or tritium)?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204031846.DGX03548@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Subject: Re: [TML] handy device  
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>
>Aside from theory, has anyone actually tested a device of 
this kind?
>--
There is supposed to be a test facility in New Mexico where 
several of these were fabricated and tested to see if it 
worked.  Not sure, but it might have been Kirtland AFB.

They are testing other types of electromagnetic weapons there.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:48:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:48:35 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <3CAB4D53.2FCA27E3@premier.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017859666.3145.ajackson@ping>

John Groth writes:
> Charles writes:
> 
> > TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to
> > He4.  One assumes the neutron problems have been solved.
> 
> Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing
> "up" to He4 :)
> 
> Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
> opposed to deuterium or tritium)?

No, P-P probably would be phosphorus.  I should have written p-p.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402222929.02df3008@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402222929.02df3008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3cac4775.11204799@post.demon.co.uk>

Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:

>Well...given the 'canon' cold war setup, the Zho would have Russian =
Accents.
[...]
>Your basic heavy handed eastern European accent.

Of course...  The classic "Zhodani Philosophies" article in JTAS 23
can only be read with a really thick fake Russian accent:

"...contrary to what your holographic film directors seem to think, we
smile (and even laugh) as often as Imperials...
"...We are not robots.  Creativity, divergence of opinion, freedom of
expression... we have all of these within the Consulate.  Our
government is not oppressive...[...]  In return, our citizens respect,
obey and freely criticize their rulers (as is their duty)."

Stephen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <53.14a0b708.29dcabc3@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 18:50:46 GMT Daylight Time, 
jenry023@student.liu.se writes:


> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
> function using radically different biochemistries?
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> 

Stanley Schmidts "Aliens and Alien Societies" is reasonably useful. It's 
available from Amazon and there's some intersting stuff floating around out 
on the web

http://library.thinkquest.org/C003763/index.php?page=index&tqskip1=1&
tqtime=0402

Is an example.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 18:50:46 GMT Daylight Time, jenry023@student.liu.se writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might<BR>
function using radically different biochemistries?<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Stanley Schmidts "Aliens and Alien Societies" is reasonably useful. It's available from Amazon and there's some intersting stuff floating around out on the web<BR>
<BR>
http://library.thinkquest.org/C003763/index.php?page=index&amp;tqskip1=1&amp;tqtime=0402<BR>
<BR>
Is an example.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_53.14a0b708.29dcabc3_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <20020403155041.62193.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEOAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

  MACessna wrote
  >>
  Please see below for comments......
  >>
--- John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Like I would guess many peoples did,
> MTU (tm) just grew, accreting layers
> and lumps as bright shiny things
> attracted my eyes.
>
> Well I've decided to do a new one up right.
> thinking about what final conditions I want
> then deciding what conditions are needed to
> create them.
>
> What I want
>
> a distant and non intrusive Imperium, with a
> vaguely libertarian outlook.
>
  >>
  I'm there.....
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

yeppers, I'm an old crack who likes the original CT setting

>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> a low powered environment, PC's are low level
> players on the galactic scene.
>
> The campaign is on a frontier, a la Spinward
>  Marches
>
  >>
  Kewl-ness......
  >>
>
> book two sized and powered ships are normal
> (without necessarily using LBB two starship
> design), economic and physical forces work
> against large ships.
>
  >>
  Very cool....
  >>
>
> Mil spec toys are rare
>
  >>
  Hmmm, verging on uh-oh....
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

People who strap on a PGMP-15 to go to the
'fresher annoy me,  IMTU they'll have to make
do with a shotgun.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Prices and rewards are at a level where
> a party could in game earn enough money to
> make down payment on a used starship and
> then keep up payments.
>
  >>
  Given that the starship economy of Book 2
essentially encourages charactors to skip on their
creditors, I'm SO there....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

traveller space ship, things you ride around
in until you run out of money (this applies to
riding or ownership).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  >>
>
> the interstellar iconology is healthy enough
> that a backwater system is looking at 10 or
> so ships a week (recalling that most ships
> tend to be small)
>
  >>
  See the 'coda' below under 'Conditions'....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
see below coda for my response

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  >>
>
> Mega-corps exist, but are far more important
> along main trade routes and major systems.
>
  >>
  OK...but you're hamstringing a good plot device...
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh they exist elsewhere, just they are less important

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
> 2 worlds
>
  >>
  .....YES!!!FINALLY!!!.....
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
have you ever seen my semi-regular Binges rant?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
> Conditions
>
> The imperium is interested in external defense,
> surveying and mapping, stable currency, internal
> communications.
>
> Imperial taxes are very low.
>
> Imperial currency is very stable, currency drafts
> are
> excepted Imperium wide.  Local currency is
> much less flexible and much less used.
>
> As an exception to the libertarianism of the
> Imperium,
> building large (spinal mount sized ) weapons is very
> restricted.  Likewise, brute force invasions of
> neighboring worlds is discouraged.
>
  >>
  The above points are already extant in the 3I,
IIRC......
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
yep and that I like ''cept mine is less present, systems
join and stay because of the currency union aspect alone
IFIAK.  That and the party favors given out on Fleet Day.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  >>
>
> Most systems military is Coast Guard, National Guard
> level stuff.  They are oriented to stopping raiders
> and internal affairs.
>
  >>
  That's how I've always viewed planetary forces...
  >>
>
> The Scout service is canon and very important, both
> as a survey operation and a communications office
>
  >>
  No worries here....
  >>
>
> While they can feed them selves, few systems are
> fully  self supporting in other areas, lacks and
> shortfalls are usually obtainable within a
> susbsector, with smaller ships this tends to pump up
> ship traffic.
>
> Development is concentrated in most cases to the
> main planet
> in system, the rest is unpatrolled and poorly
> explored.
>
  >>
  CODA: Why? At the level of shipping you're talking
about, the only way to ship useful quantities of
product is by BIG carriers(e.g., LASH-type
freighters).

  It's a lot more economical for a system government
to either encourage or subsidize[sp?] outer system
developement, either by gov't contractors or
(preferably) by 'native' belter-type operator's.
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In the long run they will develop. This is a frontier,
at this time sales are too small for many markets to
roll the own everything,  Imagine whole subsectors relying
on Yugotech ground cars, -- available in any color you
want as long as it's lime green.  aftermarket add-ons
are probably made locally.

This by the way is a reason for lots of smaller ships.  Dealers
of whatever take orders in small lots from the factory, smaller
tramps do just fine carrying the loads needed.  Think two or
thee car carrier semis scale to the dealership, not a bulk carrier
hauling all those car across the ocean.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Way / refueling stations exist in marginal systems
> where there
> are no colonies.  These system are very poorly
> explored, and
> lacking nice places for humans to live.
>
  >>
  Who pays for this? The only way to make it
economical enough to be of commercial utility (vs
skimming) is to lower the cost of the fuel provided by
the station's. If they (the ship-driver's) are charged
'market rates', the cost of this fuel will drive up
shipping costs to the point where merchants and
consumers at the recieving end won't be willing to
pay.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

They tend to be where classic trav might have a
lo pop lousy living condition planet,  They make
money because a ship saves however much time it
takes to go 100 d for a gas giant, wilderness
refuel, go back to 100 d's and process your fuel.

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  See 'CODA'...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

seperatish issue in my opinion, besides
they are a neat place for Ancient artifacts
to lurk.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
  >>
>
> The average campaign world is TL 12 and are lower
> end
> population, 5 - 8 (Population is the population
> living
> in system, on both sides of the of the XT line and
> including permanently stationed troops.  Any fancy
> arrangement is described in the system listing)
>
  >>
  Why so low?
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
somehow a population in the billion fails to jibe
with my vision of a frontier world, recall that
these are frontier worlds.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> High tech and high population world are hubs
> supporting
> surrounding lower tech and pop worlds.  Trade is
> usually
> surrounding -- Hub, and Hub -- Hub
>
  >>
  That's how it usually runs.....
  >>
>
> Absent local conditions against it, most worlds have
> about a type C space port.  Spaceports have the
> maintenance
> ability one level higher then their build ability.
>
  >>
  This has always been my biggest saw about starports
in Trav: Why are there so many 'D' and 'E' class
ports? With a comparitivley small amount of time and
money, upgrading to at least 'C-' is a pretty small
chore......
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

yep another SRR bait

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Ships last a long time, absent combat damage and
> with
> proper maintenance, a 200 year old freighter is
> still
> functional.
>
  >>
  That's how I always saw these ships....
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I see Jamison's ship as 300 plus years old, his corp. bought it used and
used it hard on speculative runs

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Technology is stable, the rough edges have been
> worn off most standard designs centuries ago.
>
> The Imperium makes public domain standardized plans
> for
> many thing available.  While local peculiarities
> exist,
> a surprisingly large number of items are
> standardized
> imperium wide. (unless of course it is for a plot
> point)
>
  >>
  I'm OK with the stability part. Isn't there
something in GT about a standardised set of plans?
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Spaceport mention something like this I believe.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Pirates exists, not as ECMs but as semi organized
> groups
> in the fringes of the system.  A lot of time and
> effort
> of the local navies is spent chasing them down.
>
  >>
  Of course.
  >>
>
> jml
>
  >>
  MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
Message-ID: <e4.25704b2c.29dcb669@aol.com>

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Stomped on dupe names, got rid of those underscore characters, and
bumped up the pop and tech scores for a dozen or so worlds. See what
this gives us.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

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Avalon                0106  B767845-A   Ri                     623 So
Banners               0110  B645878-7                          824 So
Threshold             0121  B66735A-9   Lo Ni                  202 So
Carson                0123  B465888-9   Ri                     323 So
Victory               0124  C7955A7-6   Ag Ni                  422 So
Aphrodite             0125  C8B0243-9   De Lo Ni               924 So
Ryerson               0126  E592333-5   Lo Ni                  401 So
Barrens               0127  B241566-B   Ni Po                  224 So
Jewelbox              0128  B857457-C   Ni                     711 So
Ormuz                 0131  E460357-6   De Lo Ni               112 So
923-211               0139  X6B2000-0   Ba Fl                  420 Na
Morgan                0201  A7759BB-D   Hi In                  310 So
Euler                 0202  C21046A-A   Ni                     722 So
Urania                0203  B574755-B   Ag                     901 So
Arrakis               0206  B460858-C   De Ri                  422 So
Hesiod                0207  C56778C-8   Ag Ri                  225 So
Ehlai                 0211  AAC259B-D   Fl Ni                  700 So
Gamma                 0212  B642614-7   Ni Po                  124 So
Chiron                0217  B310788-9   Na                     904 So
Pericles              0220  B457404-C   Ni                     422 So
Omar                  0222  B596578-B N Ag Ni                  223 So
Absalom               0223  A578843-C                          933 So
Jackson               0224  C45367A-8   Ni Po                  325 So
Tau-Tau               0225  B000649-D N As Na Ni               210 So
Manuel                0226  A445788-9   Ag                     323 So
Tudor                 0227  B627599-9   Ni                     324 So
Samarkand             0228  B461766-9   Ri                     214 So
Wunderland            0233  E868443-7   Ni                     833 Na
896-917               0234  E364000-0   Ba                     725 Na
899-491               0235  XAA6000-0   Ba Fl                  123 Na
Hawking               0236  B776553-9   Ag Ni                  723 Na
Tombs                 0301  C310730-A   Na                     202 So
Novy Mir              0302  A96A883-C N Ri Wa                  624 So
Galileo               0304  C100662-9   Na Ni Va               534 So
Samson                0310  B6687B6-7   Ag                     301 So
Ceres                 0312  A677878-A                          422 So
Kant                  0316  B445856-9                          624 So
Elnath                0317  B000766-D N As Na                  533 So
Sultana               0319  B544622-9   Ag Ni                  334 So
Haven                 0325  B658668-8   Ag Ni                  923 So
Spencer               0326  B260337-8   De Lo Ni               714 So
Enterprise            0327  A877663-8   Ag Ni                  722 So
Cascade               0328  B69A730-8   Wa                     434 So
Nelson                0331  A55A799-D   Wa                     923 So
Lammas                0332  B24478A-A   Ag                     922 So
Vixen                 0333  C474225-6   Lo Ni                  122 Na
Shuanyun              0334  CAC0514-C   De Ni                  615 Na
Accident              0340  D371356-6   Lo Ni                  824 Na
Saladin               0412  B353869-A   Po                     113 So
Hadrian               0415  C51465A-8   Ic Ni                  935 So
Nakamura              0418  C10049A-B   Ni Va                  602 So
New Pretoria          0424  B643866-9   Po                     524 So
Pele                  0426  A998534-8   Ag Ni                  410 So
Themis                0428  C9A5168-9   Fl Lo Ni               324 So
Storm                 0431  A897676-B   Ag Ni                  823 So
Gateway               0434  E357413-8   Ni                     510 Na
885-644               0436  E666000-0   Ba                     724 Na
Shah's World          0437  E616100-8   Ic Lo Ni               700 Na
Fortuna               0505  B896856-9                          725 So
Isis                  0508  B696653-A N Ag Ni                  511 So
Tellus                0511  A986976-B N Hi                     704 So
Ozymandias            0512  A7A387A-B   Fl                     703 So
Bismarck              0518  B679845-6                          524 So
Ekaterina             0519  A877789-9   Ag                     500 So
Terminus              0521  B410451-9   Ni                     203 So
Athens                0527  A684958-D   Hi                     824 So
Breslau               0531  A5646AC-8   Ag Ni                  501 So
Taurea                0532  A4569C9-D N Hi                     423 So
893-368               0537  XAB4000-0   Ba Fl                  900 Na
New Lyon              0606  B642998-B   Hi In Po               700 So
Prime                 0608  C8A5656-A   Fl Ni                  600 So
Sun Tzu               0611  A778569-A   Ag Ni                  913 So
Horizon               0615  A541221-A N Lo Ni Po               534 So
Felicity              0617  B5338AD-B   Na Po                  103 So
Plateau               0618  B9D789B-6   Fl                     624 So
Rhodes                0620  A000988-E   As Hi In Na            823 So
Fermat                0624  C5259A9-A   Hi In                  713 So
Provence              0625  A365534-D   Ag Ni                  934 So
Goliath               0631  BA959DC-6   Hi In                  723 So
905-404               0633  X6A0000-0   Ba De                  823 Na
Solitude              0635  B353200-C   Lo Ni Po               424 Na
Euxene                0703  A7979BD-A   Hi In                  823 So
Lyrane                0705  B000734-D N As Na                  503 So
Abaddon               0713  B6A459B-8   Fl Ni                  510 So
Churchill             0720  A655951-E   Hi                     422 So
Sydney                0721  A357789-C N Ag                     503 So
Outpost               0724  A10069C-E   Na Ni Va               804 So
Union                 0725  A424999-E N Hi In                  922 So
Pacifica              0728  A85A424-E   Ni Wa                  703 So
Hadley                0731  B574663-8   Ag Ni                  700 So
Pella                 0732  C300655-B   Na Ni Va               821 So
Harbinger             0735  B220646-C   De Na Ni Po            232 Na
Abydos                0736  D254545-7   Ag Ni                  213 Na
Shaitan               0739  E580131-2   De Lo Ni               700 Na
Farwold               0801  A445645-A   Ag Ni                  525 So
Maharani              0804  B64566A-7   Ag Ni                  535 So
Montrose              0809  A5548AA-8                          800 So
Anjou                 0818  B426985-D   Hi In                  402 So
Nueva Brasilia        0820  A884ACE-C   Hi                     200 So
Caledonia             0821  A797977-D   Hi In                  124 So
Dante                 0822  D8B9201-A   Fl Lo Ni               823 So
Tatiana               0826  B300587-B   Ni Va                  824 So
Daikoku               0829  A8589A7-C   Hi                     723 So
Izanagi               0830  A448973-B N Hi In                  804 So
Musashi               0833  B100558-C   Ni Va                  121 Na
Rhiannon              0835  B785655-A   Ag Ni Ri               522 Na
Babur                 0837  B55447A-B   Ni                     412 Na
Monterey              0907  A110987-E   Hi In Na               321 So
Twilight              0912  A8949A7-9   Hi In                  524 So
Albion                0921  B6569AA-9   Hi                     921 So
Europa                0923  A868AB8-E   Hi                     104 So
Hotei                 0927  A7B3435-D   Fl Ni                  802 So
Yawata                0929  C434879-9                          310 So
Tenjin                0930  A246431-E   Ni                     624 So
892-834               0934  X9B7000-0   Ba Fl                  320 Na
Carthage              0938  C110334-A   Lo Ni                  200 Na
889-056               0939  X411000-0   Ba Ic                  923 Na
Aldebaran             1002  A000752-E   As Na                  734 So
Rowan                 1004  A300589-A   Ni Va                  735 So
Home                  1009  A86699A-E N Hi                     320 So
Virgil                1014  A998855-9                          312 So
Gilead                1015  B433753-B   Na Po                  624 So
Nodens                1016  A210426-A   Ni                     823 So
Albion                1022  A547A7A-C N Hi In                  310 So
Covenant              1023  A696945-E   Hi In                  423 So
Pasquale              1024  A1007CD-C   Na Va                  524 So
Paradox               1036  B256734-9   Ag                     911 Na
923-438               1040  E559000-0   Ba                     910 Na
Marduk                1101  B3519BA-C N Hi Po                  804 So
Bogatyr               1104  A573875-D                          520 So
Pronea                1105  A211656-A   Ic Na Ni               912 So
Romulus               1110  A997500-B   Ag Ni                  523 So
Cahokia               1112  B454789-A   Ag                     222 So
Camelot               1115  A766546-A   Ag Ni                  124 So
Qadesh                1117  B889544-8   Ni                     600 So
Bonita                1118  C757765-3   Ag                     304 So
Tharsis               1119  B425579-C N Ni                     622 So
Pax                   1120  B100676-C   Na Ni Va               810 So
Newmark               1122  AA6A99B-E   Hi Wa                  100 So
Lagrange              1123  B798879-7                          600 So
Ransom                1125  A5507B8-9   De Po                  224 So
Yamato                1128  A878A9C-E N Hi In                  124 So
Serendip              1131  A7586A9-8   Ag Ni                  810 So
Cheyenne              1135  B765644-A   Ag Ni Ri               412 Na
Nix                   1136  C100569-C   Ni Va                  725 Na
Beowulf               1138  D436674-8   Ni                     734 Na
Gwydion               1139  B69778A-A   Ag                     424 Na
Bleak                 1140  C551331-6   Lo Ni Po               723 Na
Kronos                1202  C400333-8   Lo Ni Va               700 So
Atlantis              1204  A85A974-C   Hi Wa                  620 So
Shulaakish            1205  B566898-9   Ri                     500 So
715-306               1207  E8A5000-0   Ba Fl                  424 So
Thalna                1208  B501374-C   Ic Lo Ni Va            233 So
Marava                1210  A787999-E   Hi                     123 So
Ares                  1211  A450983-C   De Hi Po               303 So
Bitter                1212  A324459-E N Ni                     624 So
Daedalus              1213  A759788-D                          424 So
New Sylea             1216  C988686-5   Ag Ni Ri               525 So
Matuya                1217  B210210-9   Lo Ni                  724 So
Bayern                1220  A576836-7                          624 So
Veracruz              1221  A648955-C   Hi In                  602 So
Heimdall              1223  A886A77-E   Hi                     222 So
Wells                 1224  A746784-8   Ag                     720 So
Kensho                1228  C514350-9   Ic Lo Ni               303 So
Kingston              1230  C7A5133-9   Fl Lo Ni               824 So
Laplace               1231  D334320-8   Lo Ni                  513 So
Malory                1236  C691110-8   Lo Ni                  300 Na
Voltaire              1237  A361578-E   Ni                     600 Na
Napoli                1306  A666876-C   Ri                     124 So
Athos                 1310  C6466BD-3   Ag Ni                  834 So
Perdition             1312  A310310-D   Lo Ni                  711 So
Ghazi                 1313  B543225-9   Lo Ni Po               302 So
Plutarch              1314  D100256-A   Lo Ni Va               222 So
Caliburn              1316  B442422-9   Ni Po                  302 So
Salvador              1320  A2219DF-E   Hi In Na Po            100 So
Hanover               1322  B656754-9 N Ag                     521 So
Garibaldi             1325  BA99688-7   Ni                     802 So
Terra Nova            1326  A758AB7-C   Hi                     234 So
Chasm                 1329  CAA559C-A   Fl Ni                  422 So
Teilhard              1330  C432356-E   Lo Ni Po               514 So
Invictus              1331  B767889-7   Ri                     924 So
Stone                 1337  C200566-9   Ni Va                  624 Na
Masada                1338  A78768C-A   Ag Ni Ri               625 Na
Zion                  1404  A7769A8-A   Hi In                  412 So
Bran                  1405  B865858-C   Ri                     733 So
Olympus               1406  A8D5755-E N Fl                     724 So
Megiddo               1414  B101656-C   Ic Na Ni Va            302 So
Sapphire              1415  A86A633-C N Ni Wa                  624 So
Castile               1419  A6545A9-8   Ag Ni                  324 So
Bastion               1420  A00088D-E   As Na                  711 So
Thule                 1424  A52499C-A   Hi In                  622 So
Crossroads            1426  A8C4301-E N Fl Lo Ni               524 So
Diamond               1428  B628775-8                          321 So
920-226               1435  E586000-0   Ba                     123 Na
Myrddin               1437  C442226-7   Lo Ni Po               600 Na
Cain                  1438  D64A5A6-9   Ni Wa                  902 Na
Selene                1502  A200A89-E N Hi In Na Va            112 So
Poe                   1504  C100257-B   Lo Ni Va               224 So
Apotheosis            1506  A5258DC-B                          510 So
Arda                  1509  X7868AE-2                        R 514 So
Stavros               1512  B533444-C   Ni Po                  324 So
Timur                 1513  D571520-3   Ni                     423 So
Amaranth              1518  C465375-9   Lo Ni                  724 So
Tide                  1522  X65A520-3   Ni Wa                R 902 So
Serai                 1525  B4107BA-B   Na                     622 So
Landfall              1527  A896ACB-E   Hi In                  210 So
Bell                  1528  A428551-D   Ni                     621 So
Lakota                1529  B625630-9   Ni                     434 So
Uriel                 1534  C110242-A   Lo Ni                  623 Na
917-244               1537  X500000-0   Ba Va                  425 Na
Woden                 1539  AA76548-9   Ag Ni                  900 Na
Kupala                1540  C765332-5   Lo Ni                  322 Na
Albadawi              1603  A686885-A   Ri                     934 So
Trimurti              1604  A67798C-D   Hi In                  623 So
Jabru                 1605  B300658-D   Na Ni Va               312 So
Shamash               1611  B9A2667-9   Fl Ni                  103 So
Tintanon              1613  B331233-B   Lo Ni Po               223 So
Razana                1614  B856ACC-C   Hi                     202 So
Alamut                1620  B410587-D N Ni                     224 So
Sheol                 1622  B130557-A   De Ni Po               123 So
Tristan               1623  B772741-9                          823 So
Iskander              1624  A684535-9   Ag Ni                  810 So
Xanthus               1627  B535436-9   Ni                     100 So
Desolation            1629  A6A0620-9   De Ni                  920 So
Kinnison              1636  B411652-B   Ic Na Ni               725 Na
Arcadia               1702  A56678B-B   Ag Ri                  204 So
Dar al-Islam          1703  B979A87-B   Hi In                  123 So
Veldt                 1708  X46397B-3   Hi                   R 835 So
Pugu                  1709  A300768-B   Na Va                  624 So
Inverness             1710  B342566-A   Ni Po                  322 So
Sparta                1711  A2306AC-A N De Na Ni Po            203 So
Verda                 1712  B300622-9   Na Ni Va               834 So
Iolanthe              1722  E478575-5   Ag Ni                  600 So
Indra                 1725  B225643-B   Ni                     111 So
Deseret               1727  B574A7B-A   Hi In                  112 So
Columbia              1728  B446677-B   Ag Ni                  635 So
Telluride             1730  A232A99-E N Hi Na Po               234 So
Arizona               1731  E460652-3   De Ni Ri               224 So
Clarke                1735  C99A636-7   Ni Wa                  100 Na
Merope                1739  E110102-9   Lo Ni                  523 Na
Lisbon                1740  C576444-8   Ni                     300 Na
Altai                 1802  A552876-8   Po                     921 So
Firebird              1804  C575775-7   Ag                     425 So
Brisbane              1806  A8A4400-D   Fl Ni                  223 So
Gizeh                 1810  C553786-5   Po                     204 So
Concord               1818  B5637AA-8                          624 So
Bastet                1819  A330787-A   De Na Po               624 So
Rajastan              1824  C756769-8   Ag                     313 So
Franklin              1829  A8899BB-A   Hi                     610 So
New Nairobi           1830  A3307BC-A   De Na Po               723 So
890-218               1833  X100000-0   Ba Va                  100 Na
Nantucket             1835  C97A210-D   Lo Ni Wa               803 Na
Destiny               1837  D878202-5   Lo Ni                  824 Na
954-490               1839  X8C0000-0   Ba De                  923 Na
Batavia               1902  A9A389B-C N Fl                     924 So
Benedict              1909  A697888-A                          324 So
Malabar               1910  A635567-B   Ni                     803 So
Lorelei               1917  A779457-D   Ni                     924 So
Alilat                1918  B669553-D   Ni                     514 So
Hardship              1919  C5A5312-A   Fl Lo Ni               523 So
Chandra               1924  A310443-E   Ni                     434 So
Pandora               1927  A645ABA-E N Hi In                  200 So
Fraser                1929  B642510-B   Ni Po                  314 So
Kalahari              1935  A460654-B   De Ni Ri               223 Na
918-323               1936  X222000-0   Ba Po                  824 Na
921-997               1937  X8A7000-0   Ba Fl                  810 Na
Damnation             1938  E437435-9   Ni                     521 Na
Plato                 1940  D878220-6   Lo Ni                  324 Na
Muscovy               2002  B876845-A                          124 So
Tesla                 2004  A474A9A-E   Hi In                  204 So
Huaxia                2007  A7789AC-D   Hi In                  325 So
Turing                2010  A34569B-B   Ag Ni                  602 So
Medina                2018  B897887-A N                        724 So
Amida                 2019  C330769-8   De Na Po               934 So
Tagore                2020  A86887A-B   Ri                     224 So
Tormance              2022  AA68AAB-E   Hi                     100 So
Surya                 2023  B997878-B N                        623 So
Mu                    2024  C799498-5   Ni                     900 So
Denali                2027  B539675-8   Ni                     900 So
St. Thomas            2030  B657878-A                          814 So
Pytheas               2035  B5536A9-8   Ni Po                  434 Na
Dis                   2038  E200210-9   Lo Ni Va               411 Na
Baal                  2040  B45048C-9   De Ni Po               422 Na
Kashgar               2102  C534778-8                          110 So
Mictlan               2104  B200404-9   Ni Va                  303 So
Newcastle             2106  B5438BD-8   Po                     713 So
Wovoka                2107  A88A997-E N Hi Wa                  434 So
Memnon                2111  A657655-A   Ag Ni                  821 So
Justinian             2115  C66755A-8   Ag Ni                  902 So
Hector                2116  A200557-D   Ni Va                  314 So
Minos                 2117  X385654-2   Ag Ni Ri             R 223 So
Canyon                2125  BAF5677-7   Fl Ni                  202 So
Refuge                2127  A100A79-E   Hi In Na Va            223 So
Barbary               2128  C6B0622-9   De Ni                  423 So
Armstrong             2132  E110562-9   Ni                     700 So
Scatters              2133  B0008AD-D   As Na                  801 So
890-595               2135  X7C0000-0   Ba De                  300 Na
931-538               2140  E657000-0   Ba                     924 Na
Taliesin              2201  B756833-5                          302 So
Renault               2203  B678755-A   Ag                     133 So
Malta                 2205  A96A877-C N Ri Wa                  101 So
Sabah                 2206  B626755-A                          224 So
Newton                2208  B466945-9   Hi                     222 So
Lucifer               2209  C793432-7   Ni                     100 So
Echo                  2212  A00098A-E N As Hi In Na            533 So
Tecumseh              2213  A777720-C   Ag                     424 So
Tanaroa               2214  C76A563-7   Ni Wa                  902 So
Canaan                2216  A878684-C   Ag Ni                  835 So
Kepler                2218  B000759-B   As Na                  110 So
Rama                  2220  A893678-8   Ni                     323 So
Kashmir               2223  A644976-A   Hi In                  502 So
Faraway               2230  C33568A-9   Ni                     923 So
Wolfe                 2233  A363535-E N Ni                     724 So
911-241               2234  X8A4000-0   Ba Fl                  512 Na
Koshchei              2235  C523212-9   Lo Ni Po               502 Na
Masaya                2239  CAD9356-9   Fl Lo Ni               300 Na
Nzame                 2240  E896233-7   Lo Ni                  104 Na
Temujin               2302  BAB5587-C   Fl Ni                  814 So
Wilkes                2303  D100656-A   Na Ni Va               400 So
Kalmar                2307  A775622-B   Ag Ni                  113 So
Deirdre               2312  X897254-3   Lo Ni                R 101 So
Brilliant             2313  B529999-B   Hi In                  620 So
Anansi                2315  A989451-E   Ni                     324 So
Arjuna                2320  A514652-A   Ic Ni                  504 So
Bharat                2324  A564A9C-E N Hi                     124 So
Touchdown             2339  C8A0301-9   De Lo Ni               723 Na
Ganymede              2340  C410355-B   Lo Ni                  202 Na
Princeton             2403  D412264-7   Ic Lo Ni               122 So
Hermes                2405  B7989BB-9   Hi In                  224 So
Enoch                 2409  B8669B8-A N Hi                     220 So
Paravel               2414  E410157-9   Lo Ni                  910 So
Cybele                2416  A9D899A-A   Fl Hi                  303 So
Guinee                2417  C86A8DF-8   Wa                     300 So
Ariadne               2428  C697667-8   Ag Ni                  201 So
Iona                  2429  A464420-9   Ni                     323 So
Tyre                  2431  A588452-E N Ni                     622 So
Drab                  2432  B430456-B   De Ni Po               602 So
Tintagel              2438  C410201-C   Lo Ni                  913 Na
Sebastos              2502  A566886-B   Ri                     222 So
Locke                 2503  C30077B-A   Na Va                  401 So
Antiquity             2505  A5A2354-E   Fl Lo Ni               300 So
Phaedra               2506  A310855-A   Na                     234 So
Jacaranda             2508  B400678-B   Na Ni Va               924 So
Anderson              2511  A465557-E   Ag Ni                  722 So
Avesta                2512  A62569B-B   Ni                     723 So
Lawrence              2513  B300887-C   Na Va                  703 So
Seraph                2515  C494769-6   Ag                     123 So
Maidan                2517  D200525-9   Ni Va                  124 So
New Hawaii            2518  A67A99A-E   Hi In Wa               514 So
Carnelian             2522  C511438-A   Ic Ni                  134 So
Laomedon              2523  C220387-B   De Lo Ni Po            424 So
Wormwood              2524  C210645-8   Na Ni                  934 So
Jericho               2532  C400465-B   Ni Va                  803 So
936-125               2536  X200000-0   Ba Va                  224 Na
Yama                  2538  C324322-A   Lo Ni                  222 Na
Aztlan                2601  B9898CC-6                          425 So
Helicon               2606  C869773-5   Ri                     113 So
The Realm             2608  A665ADB-C   Hi                     324 So
Ulysses               2613  A75A754-B N Wa                     624 So
Rand                  2614  B322720-8   Na Po                  902 So
Ratri                 2619  C410689-9   Na Ni                  224 So
New Vantage           2620  C9DA477-9   Fl Ni Wa               912 So
Teela                 2621  A444457-C   Ni                     120 So
Coventry              2624  A596687-8   Ag Ni                  424 So
Devaki                2625  A78A7A5-D   Wa                     124 So
Ahriman               2635  B623200-C   Lo Ni Po               834 Na
899-034               2636  X632000-0   Ba Po                  524 Na
Providence            2637  B474424-7   Ni                     925 Na
Amber                 2702  A64699A-E N Hi In                  733 So
Zarathustra           2703  C100858-C   Na Va                  224 So
Arrian                2704  B8B3567-9   Fl Ni                  420 So
Catalunya             2707  B44499C-8   Hi In                  624 So
Aeolus                2708  B766577-6   Ag Ni                  423 So
Botany Bay            2709  B66A944-A N Hi Wa                  220 So
Attica                2717  C325899-9                          525 So
Bazaar                2720  AAB9333-E   Fl Lo Ni               523 So
Saranaki              2722  A41088B-A N Na                     224 So
St. Elias             2726  E220120-9   De Lo Ni Po            610 So
Basilisk              2728  C6737B6-4                          610 So
Outfield              2732  B330323-D   De Lo Ni Po            820 Na
Last Chance           2735  E454253-5   Lo Ni                  923 Na
Bethel                2739  C200200-8   Lo Ni Va               302 Na
Jamshyd               2802  C545566-6   Ag Ni                  523 So
Lynne                 2804  A230556-D   De Ni Po               722 So
Freehold              2806  A654200-B   Lo Ni                  702 So
Tanil                 2813  D696342-6   Lo Ni                  724 So
Buku                  2816  C447688-4   Ag Ni                  900 So
Tyrone                2823  C514543-9   Ic Ni                  734 So
867-853               2824  E410000-0   Ba                     720 So
Gryphon               2825  A984579-B   Ag Ni                  724 So
Manticore             2827  B668513-A   Ag Ni                  624 So
Lilith                2829  E8A6200-8   Fl Lo Ni               225 So
Cyrano                2830  B100201-C N Lo Ni Va               102 So
Libertad              2835  C6598DF-6                          514 Na
Aimend                2836  B685400-A   Ni                     423 Na
Borges                2904  A675922-E   Hi In                  125 So
Paulette              2905  C506385-8   Ic Lo Ni Va            622 So
Alphard               2906  B7A2320-B   Fl Lo Ni               724 So
Kodiak                2907  C876565-5   Ag Ni                  124 So
Ekera                 2912  A400477-B N Ni Va                  120 So
King                  2913  B6B5300-D   Fl Lo Ni               424 So
Hestia                2914  B553553-7   Ni Po                  900 So
Sphinx                2924  B53557B-C   Ni                     824 So
Natal                 2928  D639154-9   Lo Ni                  424 So
Meade                 2932  A200622-B   Na Ni Va               334 Na
941-240               2940  X200000-0   Ba Va                  613 Na
Nesia                 3005  A98A665-9   Ni Ri Wa               623 So
Khemet                3008  CA59984-9   Hi                     723 So
New Salem             3010  B685888-8   Ri                     534 So
Freisen               3019  C687687-4   Ag Ni Ri               912 So
Leviathan             3022  B599525-9   Ni                     123 So
Camlann               3023  B465245-B   Lo Ni                  124 So
Saarinen              3024  C97A565-8   Ni Wa                  422 So
928-749               3025  E210000-0   Ba                     124 So
928-826               3026  E424000-0   Ba                     410 So
Exile                 3028  D88A200-9   Lo Ni Wa               823 So
Xinjiang              3030  B461497-8   Ni                     103 So
Verge                 3034  B55669B-A   Ag Ni                  225 Na
965-736               3036  E57A000-0   Ba Wa                  603 Na
Argos                 3104  A000563-E N As Ni                  914 So
Xanadu                3106  A886444-A   Ni                     922 So
Firdausi              3107  A778ABF-C   Hi In                  224 So
Danaus                3113  D566688-6   Ag Ni Ri               634 So
Oceanus               3115  AA7A411-E   Ni Wa                  900 So
Coburg                3116  C544766-5   Ag                     423 So
Lysander              3118  A000977-D N As Hi In Na            625 So
831-221               3124  E534000-0   Ba                     402 So
Rashnu                3125  C546251-8   Lo Ni                  621 So
Starkad               3126  C898646-4   Ag Ni                  733 So
Theodosius            3131  B7B2321-C   Fl Lo Ni               421 So
944-270               3135  E476000-0   Ba                     913 Na
Etain                 3202  B776777-9   Ag                     522 So
New Beijing           3203  C524632-8   Ni                     110 So
Styx                  3205  B5A0745-9   De                     823 So
Lamia                 3206  C200589-9   Ni Va                  622 So
Freya                 3209  B765AAA-9   Hi                     134 So
Cilicia               3215  C5846A7-5   Ag Ni                  222 So
Faust                 3216  A647410-D   Ni                     524 So
Elysium               3218  B755576-8   Ag Ni                  912 So
856-015               3228  X8C8000-0   Ba Fl                  514 So
Elis                  3233  C5597AE-4                          224 Na
Forward               3234  B524444-C   Ni                     623 Na
--part1_e4.25704b2c.29dcb669_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
Message-ID: <164.b8cd038.29dcb7e0@aol.com>

Oh, bloody hell.

Ignore that, everyone. Was meant for private email.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:33:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:33:44 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
Message-ID: <200204032032.DHB01917@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

JFZeigler@aol.com  says
>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur 
>historian, freelance writer, occasional scribbler of bad 
>poetry

At least you're not a stand-up philosopher.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
Message-ID: <126.e80c5ee.29dcc2a2@aol.com>

--part1_126.e80c5ee.29dcc2a2_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 03/04/02 00:50:39 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


> > _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
> > mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
> > reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
> > but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
> > 
> > [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.
> 
> Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are
> interfertile.
> 

Depends on what you mean by "interfertile" some species (including ones with 
differing numbers of chromosomes) can interbreed but not produce fertile 
young.

The horse family is the classic example of this (horse (64 chromosomes) + 
donkey (62 chromosomes) = mule (63 chromosomes)), although interbreeding of 
captive big cats is not uncommon. Interestingly I'm not aware of any great 
ape interbreeding.

If you mean interbreed and produce fertile young there's a question over 
whether most of the subspecies of human could. Genetic drift after three 
hundred thousand years or so of isolation is likely to have had some 
interesting consequences. Genetic engineering of seperated groups by assorted 
Ancients is unlikely to have helped.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_126.e80c5ee.29dcc2a2_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:50:39 GMT Daylight Time, webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been<BR>
&gt; mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the<BR>
&gt; reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,<BR>
&gt; but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.<BR>
<BR>
Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are<BR>
interfertile.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Depends on what you mean by "interfertile" some species (including ones with differing numbers of chromosomes) can interbreed but not produce fertile young.<BR>
<BR>
The horse family is the classic example of this (horse (64 chromosomes) + donkey (62 chromosomes) = mule (63 chromosomes)), although interbreeding of captive big cats is not uncommon. Interestingly I'm not aware of any great ape interbreeding.<BR>
<BR>
If you mean interbreed and produce fertile young there's a question over whether most of the subspecies of human could. Genetic drift after three hundred thousand years or so of isolation is likely to have had some interesting consequences. Genetic engineering of seperated groups by assorted Ancients is unlikely to have helped.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_126.e80c5ee.29dcc2a2_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <3CAB69B2.95EE7DA@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>
> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
> 2 worlds
>
  >>
  .....YES!!!FINALLY!!!.....

[I think] John-Martin wrote:
>have you ever seen my semi-regular Binges rant?

Actually, I think I missed it. 

As a representative of a low pop world, I want to hear 
more about this.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <200204032049.DHB04097@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

><snippage>
>> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
>> 2 worlds
>>

I always thought that these were either scientific 
establishments - OR -

Laning's Retirement Palace
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:00:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 13:00:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Questions, questions
Message-ID: <172.62e952a.29dcc73c@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 19:53:37 GMT Daylight Time, 
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:


> > 1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to 
> > remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible
> 
> Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's 
> ridiculous as well. Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens, 
> H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.

Are you sure you mean H. hablis? Evolved circa 2.2 myr ago died out probably 
around 1.5 - 1.6 myr ago AFAIK.

The candidates as far as I see it are H. heidelbergensis, H. neatherthalensis 
or H. erectus. Neanderthals and erectus are both probably poor choices which 
leaves us with H. heidelbergensis, which is logical since heidelbergensis 
used to be known as archaic homo sapiens. 

> 
> A more logical explanation would be that Gramps took H. hablis, geneered 
> the species into H. sap, and re-seeded Terra, as well as Zhodane and 
> Vland (and all the other planets) with the new species.
> 
> Would explain some of the more puzzling aspects of our evolution...
> 
This is almost certainly it since H. heidelbergensis is probably the direct 
ancestor of H. sapiens.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 19:53:37 GMT Daylight Time, johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; 1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to <BR>
&gt; remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible<BR>
<BR>
Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's <BR>
ridiculous as well. Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens, <BR>
H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Are you sure you mean H. hablis? Evolved circa 2.2 myr ago died out probably around 1.5 - 1.6 myr ago AFAIK.<BR>
<BR>
The candidates as far as I see it are H. heidelbergensis, H. neatherthalensis or H. erectus. Neanderthals and erectus are both probably poor choices which leaves us with H. heidelbergensis, which is logical since heidelbergensis used to be known as archaic homo sapiens. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
A more logical explanation would be that Gramps took H. hablis, geneered <BR>
the species into H. sap, and re-seeded Terra, as well as Zhodane and <BR>
Vland (and all the other planets) with the new species.<BR>
<BR>
Would explain some of the more puzzling aspects of our evolution...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
This is almost certainly it since H. heidelbergensis is probably the direct ancestor of H. sapiens.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 13:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
Message-ID: <175.62e4c55.29dcca53@aol.com>

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In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk 
writes:


> >Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
> >ridiculous as well.
> 
> No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H. 
> erectus_
> and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
> actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
> it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
> showing up as early as that.

H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say 
I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H. 
sapiens back that far. If by archaic H. sapiens you mean H. heidelbergensis 
then you're right.

> 
> But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
> tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In
> the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place
> _H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.

True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are 
descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even 
more arrogant than they already are.

> 
> >Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens,
> >H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.
> 
> _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
> mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
> reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
> but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
> 
> [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.
> 
> 
> Hans
> 

The Solomani Institute of Extraterrestrial Human Studies votes for H. 
heidelbergensis zhodotlas and H. heidelbergensis vlandensis :)

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's<BR>
&gt;ridiculous as well.<BR>
<BR>
No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H. erectus_<BR>
and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That<BR>
actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing<BR>
it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_<BR>
showing up as early as that.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H. sapiens back that far. If by archaic H. sapiens you mean H. heidelbergensis then you're right.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up<BR>
tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In<BR>
the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place<BR>
_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even more arrogant than they already are.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
&gt;Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens,<BR>
&gt;H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.<BR>
<BR>
_H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been<BR>
mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the<BR>
reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,<BR>
but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.<BR>
<BR>
[*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hans<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
The Solomani Institute of Extraterrestrial Human Studies votes for H. heidelbergensis zhodotlas and H. heidelbergensis vlandensis :)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr  3 13:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <20020402201432.444efd17.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEKEDJAA.tml@downport.com>

All of the news that's fit to print, of course. But ideas already on the
table are posted at http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=40

and yes, poly-tics needs to be woven through the whole organization. For
instance, not just anyone can join the TAS. You must roll to avoid the
blacklist... and who maintains this mysterious list?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

How much material are you aiming at? What kind?

I imagine TAS could be used as an alternative to the intrigues among the
noble families. After all, the idle rich are always a good source for
strife. Just look at the old-school soap operas (Dallas, Falcon Crest,
etc) out there...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Corridor PBEM, or What Happens When You Retire
Message-ID: <200204032215.DHD09409@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

If you're interested and already sent me an e-mail, please re-
confirm by sending me your character. If you are just 
interested, please send me your character.  Please use CT 
LBB, Book4, 5, Scouts, Merchant Prince, or Citizens.

The campaign begins at a beautiful retirement enclave, built 
by a previous band of adventurers who initially made their 
fortune during the Fifth Frontier War.  Various adventurers 
have been attracted to, and joined the enclave in their 
retirement.  The enclave has been a patron to other 
adventurers as well.

More on the enclave and its location in a moment...
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Universal TwistsTable
Message-ID: <20020403.143010.-258599.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

Rachel

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 02:37:18 +0800 "Rachel Kronick"
<rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net> writes:
> Hi all!
> 
> I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists 
> Table (UTT), where you roll and a result like "Antagonist turns out 
> to be Protagonist's long-lost relative" or "20 drunken goons ambush 
> the PC on the way home" or whatever come up.  we could make a 
> big UTT with a thousand or so entries so repeats are rare...
> 
> -- 

Sounds like a great idea, run with it...

I can't think of any at the moment, my brain needs a jump start. Perhaps
posting ideas will inspire others [including myself] to think up a few,
then you could develop the table from the plentiful results, after all,
it was your idea.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <3CABBC5E.30314.BCBF6D@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402205809.027d9ba0@pop.wizard.net>
 <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403173248.02493b60@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:37 AM 4/4/02 +0800, you wrote:
>Hi all!
>
>I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists
>Table (UTT), where you roll and a result like "Antagonist turns out
>to be Protagonist's long-lost relative" or "20 drunken goons ambush
>the PC on the way home" or whatever come up.  we could make a
>big UTT with a thousand or so entries so repeats are rare...
>
>-- Rachel

Good idea, and I applaud and admire it.

The really surprising surprise is more like what I had in mind.  Not "what 
is their true motivation, really?" but "You walk to the mailbox and hear a 
strange click as you open it.  Some sixth sense makes you jump to the 
side.  An explosion plumes out of the mouth of the mailbox, right through 
where you were just standing.  There are nasty-looking steel darts embedded 
very deeply in the tree on the opposite side of the street."  Something 
totally out of the blue.  And you can't use my exploding-mailbox random 
event because you've already written it so you know it _might_ happen.

The best conceptual approach I've devised so far is we help each other out 
by writing random events, posting them via the Internet to each other, and 
then we can each use someone else's random events and some dice or other 
random number generator.  No peeking allowed.

Alternatively, there was the suggested approach of "it's a lot like playing 
chess against yourself".  But only the most scrupulously intellectually 
honest person could really do that up right.  I'd be very tempted to let my 
munchkinness run wild, for instance.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <200204032049.DHB04097@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403174814.0255e1a0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon retorts:
> ><snippage>
> >> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
> >> 2 worlds
>
>I always thought that these were either scientific
>establishments - OR -
>
>Laning's Retirement Palace

Heh.  Nah.  It's nice to think that there might be nearly "unspoiled" 
worlds like that somewhere, but I wouldn't want to live on them.  For one 
thing, the TML would be pretty lacking in activity on a place like that.  I 
need more intellectual activities than can be provided by a population of 
less than 100 sophonts.  You could always posit that those ninety people 
are the ninety most brilliant and knowledgeable people who ever lived, I 
guess.  It's a retirement palace for the best and the brightest.  But then 
you'd have to explain why they let me retire there too!

Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major 
metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a 
twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to ride my 
bicycle around on for training and take different routes each day.  Fifteen 
miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest needs.  Really.  Don't 
forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] heaven and earth
Message-ID: <200204032300.DHF06393@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

does anyone know where I can find a list of known bugs?

also, I wouldn't mind porting this to Smalltalk.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Laning wrote:
Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major 
metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a 
twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to ride my 
bicycle around on for training and take different routes each day.  Fifteen 
miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest needs.  Really.  Don't 
forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.

--Laning



How about this Laning?
http://www.trinityyachts.com/seahawk.htm

The boat's also detailed in the current (April 2002) issue of Yachting.  Drop me
an e-mail if you want me to send you some scans ;)

Jesse
wyrwolff@yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:16:02 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB8CD5.530DEA4@premier.net>


"DeGraff, Jesse" wrote:
> 
> Laning wrote:
> Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major
> metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a
> twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to ride my
> bicycle around on for training and take different routes each day.  Fifteen
> miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest needs.  Really.  Don't
> forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.
> 
> --Laning
> 
> How about this Laning?
> http://www.trinityyachts.com/seahawk.htm
> 
> The boat's also detailed in the current (April 2002) issue of Yachting.  Drop me
> an e-mail if you want me to send you some scans ;)
> 
Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)

Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:

http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEKEDJAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <20020402201432.444efd17.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403181532.02492b50@pop.wizard.net>

>I imagine TAS could be used as an alternative to the intrigues among the
>noble families. After all, the idle rich are always a good source for
>strife. Just look at the old-school soap operas (Dallas, Falcon Crest,
>etc) out there...

True enough.  I live in the suburbs between Washington, D.C. and the 
fox-hunting Virginia countryside where there are dozens of billionaires 
with a B, and the big hunt/horse events are an important part of the social 
calendar for zillionaires from all over the world.  Every time there's a 
murder in Middleburg or something, it shows up as a made-for-TV movie two 
years later.  Like clockwork.  :->

'Dallas' & 'Falcon Crest' are old school soap operas?!  One of us is dating 
ourselves, 'cuz I see something like 'As The World Turns' as old school and 
'Dallas' as a recent fad.  And of course there were the old radio shows 
that were before my time; they actually were sponsored by soap 
companies.  It's all subjective, I guess.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:22:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:22:28 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
In-Reply-To: <3CAB8CD5.530DEA4@premier.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACELDCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

John Groth says
[Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:]

Nice.  But where is the triple laser turret?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:27:02 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" l
 ong)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

That's not a yacht, it's a pocket cruise ship ;)
Jesse


John Groth proclaimed:
Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)

Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:

http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:29:02 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACELDCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3CAB8FE7.32401A30@premier.net>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> John Groth says
> [Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:]
> 
> Nice.  But where is the triple laser turret?

Not mounted.  As _Britannia_ was designed for rapid conversion to a
hospital ship at need, the laws of war forbid mounting of offensive
weapons.

I am given to understand, however, that the 2 3-pdr. saluting guns are
point-defense capable.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] heaven and earth
In-Reply-To: <200204032300.DHF06393@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D0D965.34814%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/3/02 3:00 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> does anyone know where I can find a list of known bugs?
> 
> also, I wouldn't mind porting this to Smalltalk.

Just a word of warning.  I got the source for a possible mac port.  It
written in VB.  There's on source file that's over a meg.  AAARRRGG.

I thought it would be an easy post to the mac using RealBasic.  Boy was I
wrong.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FA@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net>

Jesse DeGraff says:

>How about this Laning?
>http://www.trinityyachts.com/seahawk.htm
>
>The boat's also detailed in the current (April 2002) issue of 
>Yachting.  Drop me
>an e-mail if you want me to send you some scans ;)

Hmm, that's pretty nice.  :->

But it doesn't seem to have a suitable helicopter.  And I'd prefer to have 
a spot more conducive to sunning while cruising slowly or at anchor.  With 
cocktails.  And where's the swimming pool?  Some of the yachts found at the 
link you posted a few weeks back had swimming pools.

Remember, I'm a man of a modest needs, but you can't honestly expect me to 
want for all those basic necessities can you?  :->

I'd pull up one or two yachts from that other site, but the computer where 
my bookmarks live is currently a little under the weather.

I'd really like the yacht to be a sailboat but that plays hell with trying 
to use the helicopter, or even where to keep the car.

--Laning
Sheez, that Trinity yacht has a 38-footer listed as one of its tenders.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FC@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403191641.00a990b0@pop.wizard.net>

>John Groth proclaimed:
>Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)
>
>Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:
>
>http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

Yes, that might be suitable.  A bit old though, don't you think?  And it 
probably needs some pretty extensive remodelling for the helopad and hangar.

Remember, I'm a man of modest needs.

--Laning

PS  Both of those yachts were good fodder for my budding Traveller 
campaign.  I thank you.  I think my wife and I will have fun together 
looking at the online tour of HM Britannia.  :->

I wonder...should the truly luxurious yacht owner carry his own ocean-going 
yacht in the hold of his star yacht?  Captain Nemo probably would.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/3/02 4:14 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Hmm, that's pretty nice.  :->
> 
> But it doesn't seem to have a suitable helicopter.  And I'd prefer to have
> a spot more conducive to sunning while cruising slowly or at anchor.  With
> cocktails.  And where's the swimming pool?  Some of the yachts found at the
> link you posted a few weeks back had swimming pools.
> 
> Remember, I'm a man of a modest needs, but you can't honestly expect me to
> want for all those basic necessities can you?  :->


Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?

http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html

Now that's what I am talking about.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] using heaven and earth
Message-ID: <200204040040.DHJ01676@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod, how hard was it to take the output from h&e (html) and 
turn it into what you have for the spinwardmarches site?

I am thinking of doing the same thing for Corridor.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Suddenly, Blackmoore Heavy Industries (builders of the Acipiter series ships and
others) branches off to wet-ship design.  Pretty impressive when you consider
they're asteroid based ;)
Jesse


Kindest Sophont Laning,
Regarding your RFP for a "modest", helicopter (how quaint!) equipped motoryacht,
are you looking for something in an expedition style yacht
[http://www.yachtworld.com/expeditionyachts/expeditionyachts_3.html], something
classical [http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/], or something a little more
aggressive looking? [http://www.newzealandyachts.com/].

Best Regards,
David Phoenecius
Blackmoore Heavy Industries


-----Original Message-----
From: laning [mailto:laning@wizard.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 4:26 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)



>John Groth proclaimed:
>Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)
>
>Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:
>
>http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

Yes, that might be suitable.  A bit old though, don't you think?  And it 
probably needs some pretty extensive remodelling for the helopad and hangar.

Remember, I'm a man of modest needs.

--Laning

PS  Both of those yachts were good fodder for my budding Traveller 
campaign.  I thank you.  I think my wife and I will have fun together 
looking at the online tour of HM Britannia.  :->

I wonder...should the truly luxurious yacht owner carry his own ocean-going 
yacht in the hold of his star yacht?  Captain Nemo probably would.

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:02:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:02:37 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <20020403.170340.-179719.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

> Laning wrote:
> Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major 
> metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a 
> twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to
> ride my bicycle around on for training and take different routes each
> day.  Fifteen miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest
> needs.  Really. Don't forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.
> 
> --Laning

Why not just take Catalina Island off the Southern California's Long
Beach coast.
Live in Wriggly's mansion, and enslave Avalon harbor. 
They have a small harbor, a private small plane airstrip, a secluded
school for Mercenary training, room for a submarine base, accessible by
sea plane, helicopter, yacht, or small plane, and if you like the
outdoors, a small herd of Bison.

Don't worry about the rattlesnakes, they'll at least warn you before they
strike.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
Message-ID: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission 
times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had 
holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might 
be traded on many worlds.

Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was 
traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on 
that world traded electronically.

You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
to try and offset this sort of risk?

Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017882903.8505.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission 
> times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had 
> holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might 
> be traded on many worlds.
> 
> Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was 
> traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on 
> that world traded electronically.
> 
> You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
> stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
> get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
> to try and offset this sort of risk?

Aside from a broker on Regina who handles the investment for you?  No.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:16:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:16:35 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEKKDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Sort of gives you a reminder of how stock brokers got so powerful. A century
ago you REALLY had to trust your brokerage to do what was in your best
interest.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission
times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had
holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might
be traded on many worlds.

Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was
traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on
that world traded electronically.

You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the
stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to
get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments
to try and offset this sort of risk?

Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
Message-ID: <20020403.173322.-179719.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:08:21 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
> stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
> get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
> to try and offset this sort of risk?
> 
> Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?
>

One would assume that your portfolio in the 57th century would have a lot
more safeguards than todays economic choices and options. Todays brokers
can key in a buy or sell if above or below a certain point. The future
would be so electronic, computerization so A.I. that your entire
portfolio could change, grow, etc, while you're out jumping around the
galaxy. But because of your pre-jump commands to your home computer,
you'd have no worry's at all, in fact if programmed right you'd be making
Credits all the time.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEPKGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

hmmm, 
stock futures? invest in as basket of 
stocks.  put a proportion of your stock 
in mega corps __ if they crash the 
imperium has probably crashed so you 
really don't need to worry ... too much :)

jml
_____________
my other computer runs BSD
and another, Mac OS 9, and 
another NT, and .....
you get the idea

jml
jmlotzn1@pacbell.net
_________________





I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission 
times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had 
holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might 
be traded on many worlds.

Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was 
traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on 
that world traded electronically.

You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
to try and offset this sort of risk?

Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] book two ship building
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEPNGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I've been thinking again,  one potentialy cool thing
to contemplate is that each race can have different types
of standard ship elements.  Aslan optimize for m drive 
speed.  Vagyar ships are optimized as m3 j2 pp 3 ships for 
every default hull, Zho ships have smaller j drives but 
the m drives are bigger and so on, unless it is design to 
run without a PSI aboard in which case both drives are 
too big. Or for instance the Ante Spinward yards has a 
standard hull with a different drive, hull ratio.

much coolness with too much violence the rules.

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:58:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:58:07 2002
Subject: [TML] book two ship building ( minor correction thingee )
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEPNGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEPNGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

errr that should be

much coolness without too much violence the rules.
                  ^^^
________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] book two ship building ( minor correction thingee )
Message-ID: <200204040203.DHL05589@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

John-Martin says
>
>errr that should be
>
>much coolness without too much violence the rules.
>                  ^^^

I don't know. It seems nearly impossible to "really" damage a 
ship in High Guard.  If you compare the amount of damage that 
can be done with, say four triple beam turrets in LBB 2, and 
try that same amount of weaponry in HG, at least I have a 
chance of getting critical hits in LBB 2.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net> <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020404122756.A18722@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?

Come on now, *any* boat can submerge :)

> http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html

... though I must admit the ability to come back up again does have
some appeal.  Interestingly enough, this sub is almost exactly 100
dtons.  Only $78 million, too.  That would be what, 20 MCrImp?  Not
far off the cost of a 100-dton starship :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net> <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020404122756.A18722@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CABBC6C.54730FB0@premier.net>


Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Tod Glenn wrote:
> > Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?
> 
> Come on now, *any* boat can submerge :)
> 
> > http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html
> 
> ... though I must admit the ability to come back up again does have
> some appeal.

To paraphrase the advice a med tech game me several years ago:

Water on the outside, air on the inside.  Any deviation is bad.*

*The actual advice was "The air goes in and out, the blood goes 'round
and 'round.  Any deviation is bad."

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
In-Reply-To: <164.b8cd038.29dcb7e0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CAC67AA.23713.6F6A07@localhost>

On 3 Apr 2002, at 14:54, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:

> Oh, bloody hell.
> 
> Ignore that, everyone. Was meant for private email.

This is not the sector you're looking for, move along.

(Well someone had to say it)

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
Message-ID: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>

Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered 
seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat 
that had not a conventional sail, but basically an 
airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing 
around trying to find information and pictures about 
this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more 
info about this boat or have any links?

Jesse


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Information, please:  Kians
Message-ID: <OFC3572B3F.B36E56CE-ONCA256B91.0013E1A4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Larsen asked:
>Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians

Have a look in my Library Data under "K" - "Kian". There's a whole entry 
on them (sans picture, sorry!), including these CT stats:

Number  Animal Type  Weight  Hits   Armour  Wounds and Weapons 
10-60   Grazer       400 kg  25/10  jack    10 Hooves A9 F4 S3 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Beowulf Down update - Letter of Marque!
Message-ID: <OF41324AB5.DC2907F0-ONCA256B91.0014375C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Got my 'Net access back last night, and to celebrate I uploaded a blank 
Letter of Marque, plus a few filled-in LoM's for the PC's in my campaign.

(I also forgot to mention I added a few new taglines. Oh yeah, and a j-6 
map to the Tavonni RICE Paper. I'll really have to update my "Just 
Detected" page!  ;-).

For the blank one, either go in through "Just Detected", or via Tavonni 
Repair Bays ==> Other Assorted Notes ==> Letter of Marque.

To find the filled-in LoM's, again go thru "Just Detected", or via Tavonni 
Specialities ==> Adifux Inc LIC ==> then the various Letters of Marque.

BTW, did anyone have any comments on my _Robots_ rules fixes?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:59:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:59:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Electronic Copy of MT Ruleset?
Message-ID: <OFA21335D5.ACFFA0F8-ONCA256B91.00154011@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

I asked this a couple of months ago, but got no reply:

        A year or more ago, someone on the TML offered us the MT rules in 
electronic form.

        Marc apparently allows the person to release a limited number of 
copies per year (provided the recipient can show proof-of-purchase).

        Can anyone tell me:
                (a) who the person is;
                (b) how I can get in contact with them; and
                (c) if any copies are available *this* year?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <OF0CB4ECE7.A245C0B1-ONCA256B91.00169DC3@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>> Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
>> opposed to deuterium or tritium)?
>
>No, P-P probably would be phosphorus.  I should have written p-p.

Um, maybe H-H, hydrogen to hydrogen (as opposed to D-D deuterium-to-D, or 
T-T tritium-to T)?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <200204040421.UAA31186@ping.iii.com>

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au writes:

>Dear Folks -
>
>>> Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
>>> opposed to deuterium or tritium)?
>>
>>No, P-P probably would be phosphorus.  I should have written p-p.
>
>Um, maybe H-H, hydrogen to hydrogen (as opposed to D-D deuterium-to-D, or 
>T-T tritium-to T)?

Nope.  H is insufficiently clear, since deuterium and tritium _are_ 
hydrogen.  p for proton.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402080234.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20403.202553.7U7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 03:43 AM 4/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
>>>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...
>>
>>Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug, 
>>your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead 
>>GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is 
>>despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode 
>>of eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.
>>
>>--Laning, Canoneer of God
>
> I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
>
> (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
>
> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

"Eppur, si mouve..." is the original, I believe? 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
References: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <3CABDBEE.7B9724CC@pobox.com>

Check out http://www.windrocket.com/index.html.

WKH

JDEGRAFF@sbcglobal.net wrote:

> Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered
> seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat
> that had not a conventional sail, but basically an
> airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing
> around trying to find information and pictures about
> this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more
> info about this boat or have any links?
>
> Jesse
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
In-Reply-To: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
References: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <dklnauohlk3ounbqd2b03igvg33l5810e9@4ax.com>

On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:38:37 -0500, JDEGRAFF@sbcglobal.net wrote:

>Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered=20
>seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat=20
>that had not a conventional sail, but basically an=20
>airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing=20
>around trying to find information and pictures about=20
>this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more=20
>info about this boat or have any links?

I had seen the reference as well.  The key Google term turns out to be
"wingsail" and a couple standard publicity shots can be found at
http://www.lusas.com/images/yacht.gif,
http://www.formsys.com/Maxsurf/MSLaunchingsPage/WalkerWingsailPic1.gif
or http://www.boatshow.com/IMAGES/SAILBOATS/waz001aT4.jpg.  Sorry, but
both of the images are similar and small, but should be enough to
confirm what you remember.

The depicted boat is the Zephyr 43.  Unfortunately, it appears that
Walker Wingsail is no longer in business.

A much smaller alternative, but definitely interesting in appearance
is at
http://www.marinersguide.com/dockswap/national/messages/115.html,
though as one correspondent had it, there was a buoyancy problem.
When the 200 lbs pilot carried his child on his lap, the vessel tended
to submarine.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <20020403123426.04d59074.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20403.203116.4A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> laning wrote:
>> By the way, Jens, have you read Hal Clement's 'Mission of Gravity'?
>> A great example of intelligent alien life forms evolving on a world
>> extremely different from Terra.  A just plain extreme world, in
>> fact.  Clement opens the hood and lets us peer into a lot of the
>> alien building he does.  The book's a classic, in fact.

> Nope, I haven't. And I doubt that the library has that book in stock.
> I've placed it on the list of books to look for now, though.

You may want to see if you can get copies of "The Essential Hal
Clement" Volumes I, II and III. Volume III has Mission of Gravity, the
sequel "Star Light", and several short stories that are related.

The set has a lot of strange world or aliens that are good for
springing on folks not familiar with SF from that era.

And they aren't bad reading as long as you realized that the worlds are
as much "characters" as the sophonts.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:29:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:29:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20403.204017.2N3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at
> doorlocks etc...
>
> How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior is
> exposed to Vacuum?
>
> Not many...
>
> Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by
> being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a recording
> being played over radio)
>
> I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices
> relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad ID
> number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the
> card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you
> have access to your account.

Actually, even *now* there exist systems that use an access card that
you merely have to have on your person, not even in sight.

Basicly, the access mechanism sends a bunch of different frequency
radio signals out and the card resonates at a set of them that
consitutute the access code. Purely passive, no power required in the
card. 

If this was common, you'd have a "switch" to disable the resonance, so
folks couldn't read your codes as you walked by (then again, if you've
got more than one card, they won't know which frequencies go with which
card :-)

This would be good for stuff that needs to work while you are suited. 

Add simple PIN codes to deal with stolen cards and you are doing pretty
good. 

And at the higher frequencies you could have thousands of discrete
frequencies with a code consisting a few dozen or two. That's make
trying to "pick" the lock problematic. Not impossible, just time
consuming.

Especially if it has "traps" like frequencies that are *never* used by
the cards, and thus indicate a possible attempt to pick the lock. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
Message-ID: <AA-FD46A220263513E872C2C5D66B592F00-ZZ@homebase1.prodigy.net>

Same idea, but the one I'm looking for was at *least* 
a 40 footer...

Jesse


--- Original Message ---
From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing 
Yachts

>Check out http://www.windrocket.com/index.html.
>
>WKH
>
>JDEGRAFF@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
>> Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I 
remembered
>> seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat
>> that had not a conventional sail, but basically an
>> airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been 
Google'ing
>> around trying to find information and pictures about
>> this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know 
more
>> info about this boat or have any links?
>>
>> Jesse
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TML mailing list
>> TML@travellercentral.com
>> 
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
Message-ID: <AA-859664D2580835FD9C720DB5289F1E5A-ZZ@homebase1.prodigy.net>

THAT'S what I was looking for!  Thanks!  It's 
unfortunate that the pics are so small, but oh 
well :)  I tried about 15-20 different thing when 
looking for the bloody thing, but "wingsail" wasn't 
one of them.  "Wing sail" WAS one of them but I likely 
didn't dig deep enough.

Thanks again!
Jesse

<snip JR Holmes' work>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] If the TML seems sluggish...
Message-ID: <B8D13B56.3730F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

If the TML seems sluggish it's probably because I am in the process of
converting old mail archives to the new online archive format.

I expect to recover all archives back to mid 2001 without difficulty.

I've been looking over the archives from the past (back to 1995) and
converting them may take quite a bit of work.

I hope to be able to convert all existing TML (and XBOAT) archives into the
new format.  I may need to tap into some skilled brainpower of the TML.
Stay tuned.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:36:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:36:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Kians
Message-ID: <d8.15e7e500.29dd568a@aol.com>

--part1_d8.15e7e500.29dd568a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>     Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
>kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
>pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
>Cavalry.
>     Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?

  JTAS #9, per the "JTAS Index" from Jim V., posted 1 Mar 2002?

   Hey,
   Stats for these Tauntaun knock-offs were also provided in The Best of the 
Journal #3 (which I'm reading right now). 
   Says here they're large, plains-dwelling, herbivore grazers that travel in 
herds. Originally from Prilissa/Trin's Veil, but are exported, and now a 
common sight Coreward.
   Extremely good eyesight and hearing. Eat 30-50kg plant matter/day.
   Can carry up to 250kg comfortably. If overloaded, it'll refuse to move.

   (CT Stats follow)   
#       Type       Wt        Hits     Armor   Wounds & Weapons
10-60 Grazer     400kg   25/10   jack      10   Hooves  A9  F4  S3

   -Ken Murphy- 
   

--part1_d8.15e7e500.29dd568a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
<BR>&gt;kian hails from? &nbsp;I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
<BR>&gt;pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
<BR>&gt;Cavalry.
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;JTAS #9, per the "JTAS Index" from Jim V., posted 1 Mar 2002?
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Hey,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Stats for these Tauntaun knock-offs were also provided in The Best of the Journal #3 (which I'm reading right now). 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Says here they're large, plains-dwelling, herbivore grazers that travel in herds. Originally from Prilissa/Trin's Veil, but are exported, and now a common sight Coreward.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Extremely good eyesight and hearing. Eat 30-50kg plant matter/day.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Can carry up to 250kg comfortably. If overloaded, it'll refuse to move.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;(CT Stats follow) &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR># &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Type &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Wt &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hits &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Armor &nbsp;&nbsp;Wounds &amp; Weapons
<BR>10-60 Grazer &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;400kg &nbsp;&nbsp;25/10 &nbsp;&nbsp;jack &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;10 &nbsp;&nbsp;Hooves &nbsp;A9 &nbsp;F4 &nbsp;S3
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;-Ken Murphy- 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_d8.15e7e500.29dd568a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:37:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:37:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403231032.00ab9320@pop.wizard.net>

>You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the
>stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to
>get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments
>to try and offset this sort of risk?
>
>Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?

People familiar with the market can _always_ fleece someone in the public, 
in fact that's generally what they are doing at any given moment.  At least 
in the good ol' US of A.  (I was a stockbroker in one of my former lives.)

Pretty standard options contracts should cover it.  The same ones that are 
traded now.  Plus you could do other things to try to hedge.  But, except 
in very extraordinary and usually fleeting situations, you won't be able to 
completely eliminate your risk unless you are also willing to eliminate 
your potential profit.

What a lot of people never realize about options, is the contracts are 
_not_ issued by the company that you're trading in, they have nothing to do 
with it.  And in fact, a lot of people have trouble understanding that when 
they buy shares of a stock, they (usually) are not buying the shares 
directly from the company, except in initial public offerings when a 
company goes from privately held to publicly held.  After the IPO, the 
members of the public who bought the shares will sell them to other members 
of the public from time to time, and they in turn may sell them to others, 
and so on and on.  When you buy a stock that is traded on an exchange, 
you're buying it from another investor just like you (or maybe not so much 
like you, heh) and the two of you are basically negotiating a bet on how 
much you each think the shares will be worth in the future.  I sell IBM at 
70 because I think the shares are going in the crapper, and you buy it at 
70 because you think the next annual report will spark investor 
confidence.  In other words, it's all just legalized gambling where people 
bet on what the mob psychology is going to be.

Now that we have that crude primer out of the way for people who are less 
acquianted with the fundamentals.

Stock exchanges on 21st century Terra all get information as soon as 
everybody else in existence get it.  It's a globally connected world, and 
valuable information moves at lightning speed.  There is nobody off world, 
so they don't need worry about a time delay.  Unless you count shuttle or 
space station personnel, and their time delay is neglible for purposes of 
this discussion.  So, everyone who is negotiating a bet on what the value 
of stock in Thingie Corp at this particular microsecond is theoretically 
party to the same information that the person on their side of their 
negotiation is.

If you send some of the people who trade in the stock off to a different 
planet, and it takes basically a week for information from this planet to 
reach that planet, then the smart thing to do is create an exchange on that 
far away planet where people there can trade the stock.  All the people at 
the faraway planet are theoretically party to new and relevant information 
at the same time as the rest of the folks at that planet.

In practice, this may not always be true.  Jump times are approximately one 
week, but depending on the dice and the quality of your ship's navigator 
you may make the journey roughly a day faster or a day slower.  If you can 
manage to reach Glisten from Regina a day sooner than anyone else who left 
Regina the same time you did, then you have one day during which you know 
something they don't know.

If the local exchange(s) at Glisten are trading in Regina FunCorp, ILC then 
they'll all be sharing the same stale, weeks-old news, and their trading 
decisions will be based on that news.  If you just happen to reach Glisten 
a day early, and you just happen to know that Regina FunCorp announced 
moments before you left that their CEO is being fired for malfeasance, 
there is a Regina Justice Department investigation into major auditing 
irregularities, and their comptroller just committed suicide when he 
received a subpoena, then you have an opportunity to short the hell out of 
Regina FunCorp on Glisten at prices the locals are probably willing to give 
you but wouldn't dream of if they knew the latest news.

In other words, each world with significant levels of commerce will almost 
certainly have its own stock exchange and shares traded elsewhere in the 
Imperium (or outside it, in many cases) may also be traded there.  It 
doesn't guarantee they _will_ be traded there.  Only if there's sufficient 
interest on Glisten in that particular issue will it be listed for trading 
there.  Whoever runs the exchange on Glisten will probably have regulations 
about how many shares must be registered to owners in system, how many 
shares must trade in any given day, etc.  If an issue doesn't live up to 
those minimum standards, the exchange's owners or regulators will delist it 
and you'll have to find somebody else to buy from you or sell to you.

And the person who just arrived a day ahead of schedule from Regina can 
make a killing on Glisten in Regina FunCorp speculation.  If RFC is listed, 
and if there are enough people willing to buy from him during that given 
day, and if he has the funds or credit to do what he is trying to do.

Bear in mind that if someone just arrived in system and they suddenly go as 
wild as they can buying or selling a particular stock, then that by itself 
will affect the stock.  Any time a seller drives up trading volume in one 
issue by 50% above normal, that's going to make a big difference.

In other words, if Bill Gates decided to actually start selling all his 
Microsoft shares one day, he'd drive Microsoft's price down into the 
gutter.  Even if nobody knew all those shares suddenly on the market 
belonged to an insider, it would just be a huge supply and demand 
imbalance.  And Gates would discover that people who reckon his net worth 
on paper are living in a very theoretical world.  He'd still be rich as the 
devil, but not nearly as rich people say he is.  Because people do say he 
is richer than the devil, you know.

Keeping all the above in mind, and keeping in mind that many exchanges on 
different planets will have reciprocal arrangements to ensure they're 
regulated virtually identically but many other exchanges will fly by night 
if they feel like it, there will be plenty of incentive for someone who 
trades in shares on an interstellar basis to get their news sooner than 
everyone else.  So there will be classes of people continually jumping 
ships between financial centers in hopes of getting to the destination a 
few hours before everyone else and keeping key information to 
themselves.  The really big brokerage firms will probably maintain their 
own fleets that do nothing but jump and then beam info by laser at the 
destination system while collecting beamed info from that system then 
jumping back.  Or they will pay an outside contractor to do that.  Or they 
will make it very well known to navigators and captains everywhere that 
they pay a bounty for such information.  There may even be cowboy operators 
who speculatively jump back and forth trying to be that first person to 
arrive with the news.  And a good navigator should command very rewarding 
compensation if he hires on with people like this.

Done babbling now.  Comments?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:38:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:38:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FE@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404040632.00aba320@pop.wizard.net>

>Kindest Sophont Laning,
>Regarding your RFP for a "modest", helicopter (how quaint!) equipped 
>motoryacht,
>are you looking for something in an expedition style yacht
>[http://www.yachtworld.com/expeditionyachts/expeditionyachts_3.html], 
>something
>classical [http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/], or something a little more
>aggressive looking? [http://www.newzealandyachts.com/].
>
>Best Regards,
>David Phoenecius
>Blackmoore Heavy Industries

Dear Sophont Phoenecius,

In regards your kind inquiry via recent Xmessage, please accept my grateful 
thanks for your interest.  After perusing the three styles you've 
indicated, the one that seems most attractive was that quaint and slightly 
aging, but gracefully appointed and impeccably maintained Britannia 
item.  It will need some refitting for the helipad and hangar, but I'm sure 
your reknowned naval architects will be able to devise something that 
remains true to the elegant yet relaxed Old World ambience one has such a 
difficult time finding these days.

Although it's former notoriety as a "ship of state" for some monarch on the 
Solomani Rim may lend it an air of gaucheness in some sophont's eyes, I 
prefer seeing it as imbuing this storied floating getaway with character 
and history, however local in nature.

In closing, please have your sophonts contact my sophonts and instruct them 
on the administrative details necessary to transfer funds via xboat.  My 
seneschal will pass on to me any recommendations you make regarding place 
and date of delivery, and I will consider them in the most favorable light 
as I've the utmost of trust in your judgment.

Long live Emperor Strephon,

Laning, His Grace, Duke of So Many Places He Doesn't Bother To Count Them 
Anymore


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:39:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:39:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404041749.00ab8ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn pointed out:
>Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?
>
>http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html
>
>Now that's what I am talking about.
>--


Oh my.  Speaking of Captain Nemo.  And what would Freud say?  I think 
that's actually relevant in this instance, because if anyone goes that far 
out of their way to have this thing, then it isn't "just a cigar".

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <20020403.170340.-179719.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404042049.00abc060@pop.wizard.net>

>
>Why not just take Catalina Island off the Southern California's Long
>Beach coast.

The thought has crossed my mind.  And Dashiell Hammett set one of his more 
daring, but lesser, stories there before the War.  Which has been copied in 
various films at least every ten years since then.  It makes for an 
interesting Traveller scenario, no matter which exact setting you translate 
it to.

The basic idea is robbers with grandiose visions take over at gunpoint the 
entire play resort of high rollers and the rich for one night, stripping 
everyone there of anything valuable, then escape into the night by 
boat.  They're tough, combat veterans, equipped with Thompson submachine 
guns and grenades as part of their arsenal.  I think.  Haven't read the 
story for at least twenty years.  At the time of the story, Catalina was 
home to one of the most heavily trafficked casinos that Americans frequented.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:40:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:40:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani Rim data errors?
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020403080940.027e7b68@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000201c1dbc2$54800920$fc00a8c0@imogen>

I've noticed some apparent anomalies in the  electronic  versions
of  the  Solomani  Rim.   These  anomalies  seem  to  have   been
replicated across multiple formats:

- Doug's World website (data.xls)
- Heaven&Earth (Solomani_Rim.HES)
- TR Tools (solomani.uwp)
- World Builders Deluxe (Solomani_Rim.WBS)
- ? (solomani.sdf)

... possibly others.

These anomalies are:
- 0606 Ishadar ... has a "KO" (kay-oh) star, this should be "K0" (kay-zero)
- 1901 Eshellim ... has a "VII" size star, this should be "D"
- 2205 Ikaakur ... has a "K3 IV" star, this should be "K0 IV"
- 2222 Ninkhur Sagga ... lacks any stellar data, and also lacks PBG codes

Any comments, disagreements, or the missing data for Ninkhur Sagga?

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:41:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:41:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
In-Reply-To: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404042713.00abaec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 10:38 PM 4/3/02 -0500, Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered
>seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat
>that had not a conventional sail, but basically an
>airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing
>around trying to find information and pictures about
>this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more
>info about this boat or have any links?
>
>Jesse

No.  But there is Cousteau's experimental "sail" boat.  Sort of a high-tech 
windmill that looks like a cross between a barber's pole, a maypole, a 
mast, and a sail.  I believe it drives a motor that drives a propulsion 
system.  Or is the motor.  I never have found out.  It should be easy to 
track down with Google.

Also, it makes a suitably outre and science-fictiony gizmo to place on some 
world's oceans so the your travellers get that sense of the new and alien, 
and living in the future.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:42:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:42:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Biochemistry (was : How common is advanced life?)
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOIEBACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Jens Rydholm wrote :-
> I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might
> look under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary
> after a while.
"Advanced" = multicellular, right?

> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life
> might function using radically different biochemistries?
Some of Ike Asimov's stuff can be summarised like this :-

Mean Envt.
Temperature   Biomolecules               Solvent
>150 C        Fluorinated silicones      Molten sulphur
-20 to 150 C  The stuff we're made of    Water
<-259C        Substituted lipids         Liquid hydrogen

As for what critters look like, that's a complex function of niche,
environment, and random selective factors (e.g. mass extinctions).

There was a Xenobiology overview I posted to the TML a long time ago
which addressed some of these issues.

What particular points would you like amplified or discussed?


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:43:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:43:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <20020404095814.B46FA27A5B@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204041254070.2194-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Charles (CHam628781@aol.com) writes:
>webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>>>_H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
>>>mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
>>>reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
>>>but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
>>>
>>>[*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.
>>
>>Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are
>>interfertile.

I didn't say they were. I said that the Zhodani _claims_ that they are.
Erroneously, as it happens, but when have facts ever interfered with
political theories?

>Depends on what you mean by "interfertile" some species (including ones with
>differing numbers of chromosomes) can interbreed but not produce fertile
>young.

Interfertile for the purpose of establishing that two population groups
belong to the same species means 'capable of producing fertile offspring'.
(At least when you're talking about mammals).

>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk
>writes:
>
>>>Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
>>>ridiculous as well.
>>
>>No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H.
>>erectus_
>>and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
>>actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
>>it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
>>showing up as early as that.
>
>H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say
>I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H.
>sapiens back that far.

The book I got my information from was written in 1997, so I think it
qualifies for the term 'modern'. It's been returned to the library, so I
can't provide the name, but a web search of the tern 'archaic Homo
sapiens' provided me with 12 links, the first three of which either put
archaic Homo sapiens that far back or left the qustion open (I didn't
check the rest).

http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/ANTD15/Bill/multi-media.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#moderns

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html#C


>>But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
>>tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In
>>the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place
>>_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.
>
>True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are
>descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even
>more arrogant than they already are.

Whether it would be more interesting is debatable. And such a debate would
be moot, because that's not the way it is. Both Vilani and zhodani are
expressly said to be members of _H. sapiens_.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:43:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Oops
Message-ID: <PGNMAANMJKDGGCAA@angelfire.com>

Dear all,I was wondering if you could help me.

I'm going away for the weekend and don't want to crash my mail server. How do I go about suspending the list while I'm away?

Cheers
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem




Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:44:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:44:41 2002
Subject: [TML] (long) Re: inheritance Imperial style
References: <20020403181406.EE90627A4D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c1dbe6$52c83ca0$025d8690@computer>

> From: laning
> IIRC, the Albigensian Crusade was the first Crusade.

Bzzt.  Thank you for playing.  The first crusade ended in 1099.  I've
grabbed a couple of entries on the Albigensian Crusade from one of my handy
encyclopedia CDs.

OBTRAVs should be obvious enough.

Excerpts from The Oxford Interactive Encyclopedia:
Albigensians, followers of a form of the Cathar heresy; they took their name
from the town of Albi in Languedoc in southern France. There and in northern
Italy the sect acquired immense popularity. The movement was condemned at
the Council of Toulouse in 1119 and by the Third and Fourth Lateran councils
in 1179 and 1215, which opposed it not only as heretical but because it
threatened the family and the state. St Bernard and St Dominic were its
vigorous opponents. Between 1209 and 1228 the wars known as the Albigensian
Crusade were mounted, led principally by Simon de Montfort. By 1229 the
heretics were largely crushed and the Treaty of Meaux delivered most of
their territory to France.

Cathar (Greek katharos, 'pure'), a member of a medieval sect seeking to
achieve a life of great purity. Cathars believed in a 'dualist' heresy.
Their basic belief was that if God, being wholly good, had alone created the
world it would have been impossible for evil to exist within it, and that
another, diabolical, creative force must have taken part. They held that the
material world and all within it were irredeemably evil. The human body and
its appetites were despised. Marriage was rejected and suicide by starvation
was admired. A pure life was impossible to all but a very few called the
'perfect', and the rest--known simply as 'believers'--could live as they
wished. Salvation was assured if they took a form of confirmation known as
the 'consolamentum' before death. This ceremony was to be delayed as long as
possible to reduce the chance of the recipient's sinning further before he
or she died. The heresy originated in Bulgaria and appeared in western
Europe in the 1140s. In southern France this Christian heresy was called
Albigensianism.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:45:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:45:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
References: <20020403200103.CA19127A56@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c1dbe6$5218c2c0$025d8690@computer>

> From: "Rachel Kronick"
> I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists
> Table (UTT),

Hmm.  We'd probably want a bit of a framework to hang the Twists together.
It wouldn't have to be too complex - an introduction, set of "acts", climax
and conclusion structure would probably work.

Using stuff other people develop to provide surprise is a good idea too.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B8D1A48C.37332%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
Message-ID: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning expounds majestically on the value of information
<snip>

It almost sounds like there's the Imperial X-Boat, but a 
brokerage might run an x-boat to and from each system several 
times a day with the news and trading information. It still 
takes a week to get information, but it would be hard 
to "beat the boat".

It would make things more interesting if you had things 
arranged so that jumps took a week + or - some hours. Let's 
say that the modifier, as you suggested, would be the 
navigator's skill.  Therefore, we roll 2D6, - Nav.  If you 
roll a 7, that's exactly on time.  But if you roll higher, 
you are an hour late for each number higher.  And you are one 
hour earlier for each number lower.

Makes me think that a lot of navigators will get their 
training doing Imperial x-boat, and then change career to fly 
for a private broker or a merchant line that contracts to 
brokers.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Oops
In-Reply-To: <PGNMAANMJKDGGCAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <B8D1A906.37346%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 11:34 AM, Andrew Whincup at shanhat@angelfire.com wrote:

> Dear all,I was wondering if you could help me.
> 
> I'm going away for the weekend and don't want to crash my mail server. How do
> I go about suspending the list while I'm away?
> 

go to http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Log in and set "Disable Mail Delivery" to yes
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 07:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 07:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

My wife caught me working on the standard operating 
procedures/tips manual, and she asked what it was for. She's 
a technical writer, so she's attracted to large documents.

I told her that it was tips, and in large part, a standard 
operating procedure manual for Traveller parties.

She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000 
Certified?"
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 07:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu Apr  4 07:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404042049.00abc060@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020404152552.33017.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com>

--- laning <laning@wizard.net> wrote:
> 
> >
> >Why not just take Catalina Island off the Southern
> California's Long
> >Beach coast.
> 
> The thought has crossed my mind.  And Dashiell
> Hammett set one of his more 
> daring, but lesser, stories there before the War. 
> Which has been copied in 
> various films at least every ten years since then. 
> It makes for an 
> interesting Traveller scenario, no matter which
> exact setting you translate 
> it to.
> 
> The basic idea is robbers with grandiose visions
> take over at gunpoint the 
> entire play resort of high rollers and the rich for
> one night, stripping 
> everyone there of anything valuable, then escape
> into the night by 
> boat.  They're tough, combat veterans, equipped with
> Thompson submachine 
> guns and grenades as part of their arsenal.  I
> think.  Haven't read the 
> story for at least twenty years.  At the time of the
> story, Catalina was 
> home to one of the most heavily trafficked casinos
> that Americans frequented.
> 
> --Laning
> 
  >>
  AHA! So THAT's where Able Team #2(or was it 3?) came
from! I knew that wasn't an original idea......

 MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 07:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 07:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>

At 10:15 AM 4/4/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>My wife caught me working on the standard operating
>procedures/tips manual, and she asked what it was for. She's
>a technical writer, so she's attracted to large documents.
>I told her that it was tips, and in large part, a standard
>operating procedure manual for Traveller parties.
>She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
>Certified?"

I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor training.

Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.

"You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections & standards"

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence.  Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:13:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:13:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Hidden decks  was RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3604@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Paul Walker wrote:
Hey!  I used to work for Trinity before they spun away
from Halter Marine.
<snip cool story>

LOL!  That's pretty funny :)

I'll let the gearheads figure out what size densitometer would be needed to find something like that, and at what range they'd be able to do it from.  From a conceptual design standpoint, if you're trying to fool an on-board customs inspection team that doesn't have densitometers, I'd think about using a deck layout like the AHL.  Have one (or more) of the marked fuel decks be the hidden deck(s), with either no access from the lifts or surreptitious access.  Use a keycard in a reader hidden in the wall panel seams near your right toe or somesuch.

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
References: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c1dbf2$1d1b9500$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: economic crash


> laning expounds majestically on the value of information
> <snip>
>
> It almost sounds like there's the Imperial X-Boat, but a
> brokerage might run an x-boat to and from each system several
> times a day with the news and trading information. It still
> takes a week to get information, but it would be hard
> to "beat the boat".
>
> It would make things more interesting if you had things
> arranged so that jumps took a week + or - some hours. Let's
> say that the modifier, as you suggested, would be the
> navigator's skill.  Therefore, we roll 2D6, - Nav.  If you
> roll a 7, that's exactly on time.  But if you roll higher,
> you are an hour late for each number higher.  And you are one
> hour earlier for each number lower.
>
> Makes me think that a lot of navigators will get their
> training doing Imperial x-boat, and then change career to fly
> for a private broker or a merchant line that contracts to
> brokers.

This would work well IMTU.

IMTU if two ships were within a few hundred km of each other, and both
Jumped at the same time with their exit point again being within a few
hundred km of each other, you would roll the dice for the Jump duration once
and apply the result to both ships. They would emerge from jump at almost
exactly the same time. The variance would be on the order of a few seconds
to a couple of minutes at most.

If they were both to immediately return to their starting points, you would
again make a single jump duration roll and apply it to both ships. Note that
the first jump might take 6.5 days the second might be 7.5. This is due to
the changes in Jumpspace due to the movement of large gravity wells in real
space. At the commencement of Jump the crew know exactly how long *that
particular jump* will take, and this same time will be taken by any other
vessels in the neighbourhood jumping to the same destination for the next
few hours or so. The next time that particular route is taken the roll will
give a different result as conditions have changed.

Now, using your proposed navigation roll, the Navigator becomes more
important, as he strives to shave a few hours off the duration by optimising
the route, skirting closer to intervening gravity wells. A cautious
navigator will add a few hours on as he gives potential hazards a wider
berth...

Perhaps the navigator could state the numbers of hours they wanted to
shorten or extend the jump by as a DM. on 2D 8+ to avoid potential misjump:
DM + 2*Navigator Skill, + Hours of extra Jump duration, - Hours of reduced
Jump Duration

So a Navigator with Skill 2 could add 2 Hours to the Rolled Jump duration
and be safe. A real Hotshot with  Nav-4 could trim 2 Hours of the jump time
and still be safe etc

The effect of a failed roll would be to roll on the misjump table with the
difference between the modified Nav roll and 8 as the DM on the misjump
table.

Another way to increase the utility of the Navigator is to let them
calculate the Jump duration given jumping now, in six hours, 12 hours etc.
Basically, let the navigator roll the duration in advance a number of times
equal to their Nav Skill. Each successive roll equates to the calculated
Jump duration from Here to There given Jumping Now, and successive six hour*
intervals later. It may well result that the fastest route through Jumpspace
occurs in 12 Hours time, and will get you there with 24 hours shorter jump
duration than those rolled for Now, Six hours, Eighteen hours etc. The
prudent Merchant would therefore wait 12 hours before Jumping, as he will
thus arrive in the destination system at least 12 hours earlier than jumping
now. The party in a hurry to get the Hell out of Dodge might prefer to Jump
now, despite a longer Jump duration, as incoming missiles make doing so
prudent...

To sum this up:

Skill       Advance Rolls
0            0. Only rolls upon Jump initiation to see how long this Jump is

1            1 Can see how long a Jump initiated now will take BEFORE
initiating Jump. May Wait Six hours* and                     try again for a
better result
2            2 Can see Jump duration if jump initiated Now and if initiated
in 6 hours* time.

3            3 As 2, but can see Now, 6 Hours*, and 12 Hour* durations

4            4 Now, 6*, 12*, 18*

etc

*Obviously, you can tweak the 6 hour thing to suit your own style... 4
hourly intervals may be just as good (or even better) gaming wise...

So a skilled Navigator can not only forecast better jump windows, they can
the try to shave time off those as well... "Beating the Boat" becomes a lot
more interesting =)

(Also, this 'a given jump takes a given duration if performed at a given
time' situation allows for Fleets to arrive as a coordinated unit, rather
than as a rag-tag of ships scattered over 2 days. Should cheer up the
military planners out there <g>)

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:15:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:15:54 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404082015.00ac34e0@mail.verizon.net>

Hi John,

Just remember, ISO-9000 is about demonstrating that you have a documented 
process, not that you follow it!  ;-)

Best regards,

Charles

At 10:15 AM 4/4/02 -0500, you wrote:
>My wife caught me working on the standard operating
>procedures/tips manual, and she asked what it was for. She's
>a technical writer, so she's attracted to large documents.
>
>I told her that it was tips, and in large part, a standard
>operating procedure manual for Traveller parties.
>
>She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
>Certified?"
>________________
>Do you think my being stronger and
>faster has anything to do with my
>muscles in this place?...Do you think
>that's air that you are breathing?
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:16:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:16:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Solomani Rim data errors?
Message-ID: <000201c1dbff$e448bc40$fc00a8c0@imogen>

Oops, just rechecked LBB 6 (Scouts) and I now think 2205 (Ikaakur)
should be "K3 V".

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:17:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:17:23 2002
Subject: [TML] More data errors?
Message-ID: <000301c1dbff$e508ff00$fc00a8c0@imogen>

I've now checked Alpha Crucis and Antares.  It appears  that  the
rule that K5-M9 is not available for size IV stars and  B0-F4  is
not available for size size VI stars (and in  both  cases  change
the size to V) has not been applied.  I suspect I'm going to find
this in most sectors.  Has anyone noticed this before?

Regards PLST



ALPHA CRUCIS SECTOR
===================
A0204 "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
A0806 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
B0309 "K4 IV" should be "K4 V"
B0606 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
D0310 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
E0103 "K3 IV" should be "K3 V"
E0207 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
E0408 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
E0602 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
E0704 "M5 IV" should be "M5 V"
F0307 "M2 IV" should be "M2 V"
F0402 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
F0506 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
F0510 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
F0710 "K6 IV" should be "K6 V"
G0108 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V" ... then swap the primary and companion
G0801 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
G0807 "M2 IV" should be "M2 V"
H0506 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
H0609 "K5 IV" should be "K5 V"
H0702 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
I0103 "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
J0203 "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
J0209 "K6 IV" should be "K6 V"
J0607 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
J0710 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
L0709 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
L0805 "M2 IV" should be "M2 V"
M0310 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
N0405 "K9 IV" should be "K9 V"
N0501 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
N0504 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
N0509 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
N0810 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
O0102 "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
O0703 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
O0709 "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
O0805 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"



ANTARES SECTOR
==============
A0507: "F3 VI" should be "F3 V"
A0602: "M9 IV" should be "M9 V"
A0801: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
B0708: "K5 IV" should be "K5 V"
C0204: "F0 VI" should be "F0 V"
C0401: "F1 VI" should be "F1 V"
C0801: "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
E0102: "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
E0105: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
F0302: "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
F0508: "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
F0610: "K9 IV" should be "K9 V"
G0108: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
G0803: "K1 IV" should be "K1 V"
I0105: "K6 IV" should be "K6 V"
J0305: "F4 VI" should be "F4 V"
J0605: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
J0608: "F0 VI" should be "F0 V"
L0108: "K2 IV" should be "K2 V"
M0207: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
M0402: "K2 IV" should be "K2 V"
M0706: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
M0707: "F0 VI" should be "F0 V"
N0306: "F1 VI" should be "F1 V"
O0107: "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
O0302: "F4 VI" should be "F4 V"
O0503: "F4 VI" should be "F4 V"
P0107: "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
P0205: "F3 VI" should be "F3 V"
P0502: "F1 VI" should be "F1 V"

(done)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
References: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1dbff$e6158d00$fc00a8c0@imogen>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
> stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
> get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
> to try and offset this sort of risk?

There are ways to avoid this.

First, rather than invest directly in one or other stock  instead
invest in a unit trust.  These are funds made up of a  basket  of
stocks, so if one collapsed suddenly your losses are cushioned by
the others in the fund.  A fund manger "on-site" then  trades  in
and out of any stocks on that exchange  based  on  circumstances.
His goal is to maximise the fund's performance ... which in  turn
attracts more investors.  Unless the fund manager is  incompetant
you shouldn't loose unless the whole exchange is in decline.

Second, you let your broker buy and sell on your behalf: you  can
give him instructions ranging from a  few  sentences  to  several
pages ... this is called a client  mandate  (where  you  are  the
client).  For example: a simple mandate might say "sell any stock
whose price drops below  the  purchase  price  and  reinvest  any
monies  (including  dividend  payments)   in   manufacturers   of
environmentally friendly products".

Check out StuffOnline ...
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol  and  in  the  Traveller
section you'll find a link called "Financial Markets".



> Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?

This is unlikely to happen for two reasons:

(1)  Financial markets are heavily regulated to prevent  fleecing
     ... it can still happen but those who try often face lengthy
     prison terms.

(2)  Brokers and other financial institutions  live  and  die  on
     reputation.  The last thing they  want  is  for  someone  to
     claim they did not  act  in  the  best  interests  of  their
     clients.  (Contrary to popular  belief  the  slogan  of  the
     London financial community is *not* "who dares wins", it  is
     "my word is my bond".)

A bank's  Compliance  Department  doesn't  just  investigate  any
anomalies reported, it will be pro-active and involve itself with
day-to-day business (like a QA department).



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:18:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:18:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Tugs, etc
Message-ID: <200204041934.DIV01979@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I haven't seen many designs for a "tug", a useful vessel for 
attaching to and moving other larger vessels.  Might also be 
useful for moving large asteroids that come in from the outer 
system and pose a hazard to navigation (or even to a planet).

Was just reading
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-space-
menace0404apr04.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnationworld%2Dheadlines

and had a mental picture of some bored tug crew getting 
orders to move out and push this piece of rock into the sun.

"What are you so excited about?  It's just another asteroid."
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:19:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:19:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <F115a0x5eceUXj0sZb00001399a@hotmail.com>

Texas Redshift <texasredshift@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > If the 'Alien' from the movie boarded my ship, <snip> Subsequent
> > events to be determined by the referee.  :->
>
>I liked the movie, but I always thought the crewmembers of the Nostromo had 
>way too much trouble getting their act together.

They had a lot of factors working against them.  Nothing
inside the ship was any kind of secureable except the computer
room, since no one was supposed to be aboard except
triple-cleared company employees.  They had a traitor in their
midst, and a secret agenda going on from their corporate masters.
A small group of wage-slave technicians running a cargo ship
were way out of their league, and had an appropriate casualty
rate.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:20:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:20:20 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <005e01c1dc0d$850509b0$c8d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

 "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
> >Certified?"
> 
> I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor training.
> 
> Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.
> 
> "You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections & standards"
>

Argh. Day job intrudes even here!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:21:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:21:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani Rim data errors?
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020403080940.027e7b68@192.168.0.1> <000201c1dbc2$54800920$fc00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <DAV457emxUgjtwxoJ9Y000140e6@hotmail.com>

Per Supplement 10 The Solomani Rim

Ninkhur Sagga    Sol 0602    BAA7769 D   Military Rule  G

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com

> - 2222 Ninkhur Sagga ... lacks any stellar data, and also lacks PBG codes
> 
> Any comments, disagreements, or the missing data for Ninkhur Sagga?
> 
> Regards PLST
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <005e01c1dc0d$850509b0$c8d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404162723.00a8aea0@urbin.net>

At 08:15 PM 4/4/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>  "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
> > >Certified?"
> > I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> > I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor training.
> > Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.
> > "You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections & standards"
>
>Argh. Day job intrudes even here!

Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.


----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"It is both foolish and wicked to teach the average man who is
not well off that some wrong or injustice has been done him,
and that he should hope for redress elsewhere than in his own
industry, honesty, and intelligence." -- Theodore Roosevelt,
"Review of Reviews", January 1897
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tugs, etc
Message-ID: <20020404.134744.-5683.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

John

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:34:11 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> I haven't seen many designs for a "tug", a useful vessel for 
> attaching to and moving other larger vessels.  Might also be 
> useful for moving large asteroids that come in from the outer 
> system and pose a hazard to navigation (or even to a planet).

I've adopted a couple of tugs from my Starwars flight sim games XWing and
Tie Fighter. None were used to tow large ships though. Their role was
transporting of various cargo containers, and crew. I designed both the
tugs and cargo containers with MT for MTU.  I also designed jump cargo
transports as well.

You're welcome to ask for them, and even correct flaws in my designing.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:02:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:02:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <200204041157.DIF02066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>

JTK quoted Laning and wrote:
> >Oh, if I do go Marine, how do you feel about my house rule
> >of substituting battle ax skill for cutlass skill as the
> >default Marine 'blade' weapon?
>
>I don't think that the battle axe is something that is
>readily laying around.  I have a hard enough time with the
>default "blade" being anything except bayonet, but that's me.
I'm copying this to the TML, because I think a lot of folks there might 
enjoy it.  :->

Classic Traveller says the default blade skill that Marines cascade to is 
Bayonet.  For reasons of tradition, esprit de corps, inspiring confidence 
in troops, and instilling the proper spirit of attack.  Same reasons that 
Marc Miller had to suffer through bayonet drills when he was in the Army 
even though the widespread opinion of the day was that bayonet training is 
obsolete.  In other words, I think the Traveller ruling is largely a 
product of the times during which it was written.

I like to think that the introduction of practical battle armor would 
change this equation, and it would make a very big impact on fighting in 
boarding actions.  Combat ranges will often be melee distance.  Opponents 
will all be wearing at least vacc suit for armor.  The Imperial Marines 
would have adjusted to this tactical requirement centuries ago, and a 
one-handed battle axe intended to puncture armor would be the default melee 
weapon.  For Marines.  Even if there is widespread opinion that boarding 
actions are rare.  For reasons of tradition, esprit de corps, inspiring 
confidence in troops, and instilling the proper spirit of attack, Imperial 
Marines take the practice very seriously.

Battle axes would be in abundant supply around Navy and Marine 
armories.  And, as you say, not exactly readily laying around anywhere 
else.  Except maybe in 'army surplus shops', a place where people usually 
like to buy militaria.  Also, every Marine recruiting office will have one 
proudly displayed on a wall plaque behind the OIC's or NCOIC's desk, 
crossed with a gauss rifle.  Both weapons very firmly attached to said 
plaque by lots of wiring.  The axe has probably never been sharpened.

There's also the apocryphal, but widely believed, tale of a legendary 
Imperial Marine.  During the Fourth Frontier War, Sergeant Alvin Horatio 
singlehandedly defended the hatchway leading onto his ship's bridge with 
nothing but battle dress and his battle axe for over three hours against 
literally hundreds of Sword Worlders who had boarded the ship.  Meanwhile, 
surviving bridge crew were working in their vacc suits behind him to repair 
control consoles and access antiboarding software routines.  They 
succeeded, and triggered the 'grav ping-pong' routine for the corridor 
outside their bridge.  Tellers of the tale differ over whether Sergeant 
Horatio survived or whether the grav ping-pong killed him along with the 
remainder of his foe.  All versions of the tale agree that he had slain 72 
of the enemy with his battle axe when the battle ended.  The enemy had to 
keep pulling back their corpses just to get enough room to attack him.  It 
is said that Sergeant Horatio originally came from a low tech level, low 
law level planet and grew up in a lumberjacking area.  'Horatio at the 
bridge' is a piece of lore that every Marine has embedded in them.

IMTU, the Imperial Marines replace crossed rifles with a 
rifle-crossed-with-battle-axe on their uniform and unit insignia.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017958207.9067.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> 
> I like to think that the introduction of practical battle armor would 
> change this equation, and it would make a very big impact on fighting in 
> boarding actions.  Combat ranges will often be melee distance.  Opponents 
> will all be wearing at least vacc suit for armor.  The Imperial Marines 
> would have adjusted to this tactical requirement centuries ago, and a 
> one-handed battle axe intended to puncture armor would be the default melee
>  weapon. 

There's one very important reason for the bayonet: it lets you have a melee
weapon while carrying a real weapon (a firearm) as well.  A battleaxe doesn't
do this.

A battleaxe, even with the strength of powered armor behind it, shouldn't have
much of a chance of penetrating any significant level of armor.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
Message-ID: <92.23b50a36.29de2962@aol.com>

--part1_92.23b50a36.29de2962_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk
>writes:
>
>>>Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
>>>ridiculous as well.
>>
>>No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H.
>>erectus_
>>and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
>>actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
>>it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
>>showing up as early as that.
>
>H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say
>I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H.
>sapiens back that far.

The book I got my information from was written in 1997, so I think it
qualifies for the term 'modern'. It's been returned to the library, so I
can't provide the name, but a web search of the tern 'archaic Homo
sapiens' provided me with 12 links, the first three of which either put
archaic Homo sapiens that far back or left the qustion open (I didn't
check the rest).

http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/ANTD15/Bill/multi-media.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#moderns

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html#C

Archaic H. sapiens is an interchangeable term for H. heidelbergensis. There 
are clear morphological differences between H. heidelbergensis and H. sapiens 
(and possibly behavioural differences) but the term archaic H. sapiens has 
not yet died out. You sometimes also see H. heidelbergensis called H. sapiens 
heidelbergensis and modern humans called H. sapiens sapiens.

Paleoanthropologists like a good fight about a name - see the current debate 
about H. ergaster / H. erectus for an example.

> 
> 
> >>But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
> >>tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. 
> In
> >>the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't 
> place
> >>_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.
> >
> >True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are
> >descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be 
> even
> >more arrogant than they already are.
> 
> Whether it would be more interesting is debatable. And such a debate would
> be moot, because that's not the way it is. Both Vilani and zhodani are
> expressly said to be members of _H. sapiens_.
> 
> 
> 
> Hans
> 

And Hivers are said not to use sound in their communication which is 
err...unlikely. Still as you say it's moot because it was written that way.


Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_92.23b50a36.29de2962_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2><BR>
&gt;In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk<BR>
&gt;writes:<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;ridiculous as well.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H.<BR>
&gt;&gt;erectus_<BR>
&gt;&gt;and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That<BR>
&gt;&gt;actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing<BR>
&gt;&gt;it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_<BR>
&gt;&gt;showing up as early as that.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say<BR>
&gt;I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H.<BR>
&gt;sapiens back that far.<BR>
<BR>
The book I got my information from was written in 1997, so I think it<BR>
qualifies for the term 'modern'. It's been returned to the library, so I<BR>
can't provide the name, but a web search of the tern 'archaic Homo<BR>
sapiens' provided me with 12 links, the first three of which either put<BR>
archaic Homo sapiens that far back or left the qustion open (I didn't<BR>
check the rest).<BR>
<BR>
http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/ANTD15/Bill/multi-media.html<BR>
<BR>
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#moderns<BR>
<BR>
http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html#C</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Archaic H. sapiens is an interchangeable term for H. heidelbergensis. There are clear morphological differences between H. heidelbergensis and H. sapiens (and possibly behavioural differences) but the term archaic H. sapiens has not yet died out. You sometimes also see H. heidelbergensis called H. sapiens heidelbergensis and modern humans called H. sapiens sapiens.<BR>
<BR>
Paleoanthropologists like a good fight about a name - see the current debate about H. ergaster / H. erectus for an example.<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt;But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up<BR>
&gt;&gt;tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In<BR>
&gt;&gt;the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place<BR>
&gt;&gt;_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are<BR>
&gt;descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even<BR>
&gt;more arrogant than they already are.<BR>
<BR>
Whether it would be more interesting is debatable. And such a debate would<BR>
be moot, because that's not the way it is. Both Vilani and zhodani are<BR>
expressly said to be members of _H. sapiens_.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hans<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
And Hivers are said not to use sound in their communication which is err...unlikely. Still as you say it's moot because it was written that way.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_92.23b50a36.29de2962_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404082015.00ac34e0@mail.verizon.net>
Greetings dear hearts.

ISO9000 can be described thus: -

1. Thou shalt have procedures.

2. Thou shalt follow thy procedures.

3. Thou shalt document that thou hast followed thy procedures.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (long) Re: inheritance Imperial style
In-Reply-To: <006b01c1dbe6$52c83ca0$025d8690@computer>
References: <20020403181406.EE90627A4D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404173305.02b226d0@pop.wizard.net>

Alan Bradley wrote:
> > From: laning
> > IIRC, the Albigensian Crusade was the first Crusade.
>
>Bzzt.  Thank you for playing.  The first crusade ended in 1099.  I've
>grabbed a couple of entries on the Albigensian Crusade from one of my handy
>encyclopedia CDs.
I stand corrected.  Thank you for so kindly pointing that out.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174015.02af68b0@pop.wizard.net>

>She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
>Certified?"

Oh god.  Please.  Never.  What a racket.

BTW, my wife is also a technical writer.  Small world.  :->

I'm afraid to open up the 50-page document you sent because it may put me 
hopeless behind on keeping up with the TML and two PBEM games.  But I 
promise to work on it soon.  The real problem is I will probably want to do 
far more than a trivial amount of work on it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:42:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:42:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <memo.258283@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
Question for JTK - is it too late to join in?

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:51:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:51:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017958207.9067.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174808.00a7d008@urbin.net>

At 02:10 PM 4/4/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>laning writes:
> > I like to think that the introduction of practical battle armor would
> > change this equation, and it would make a very big impact on fighting in
> > boarding actions.  Combat ranges will often be melee distance.  Opponents
> > will all be wearing at least vacc suit for armor.  The Imperial Marines
> > would have adjusted to this tactical requirement centuries ago, and a
> > one-handed battle axe intended to puncture armor would be the default melee
> >  weapon.
>There's one very important reason for the bayonet: it lets you have a melee
>weapon while carrying a real weapon (a firearm) as well.  A battleaxe doesn't
>do this.

The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF 
since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.


>A battleaxe, even with the strength of powered armor behind it, shouldn't have
>much of a chance of penetrating any significant level of armor.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:57:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:57:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174808.00a7d008@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:
> 
> The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF 
> since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.

Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a reference _since_ Lensman, though there
certainly was one in Lensman.  In any case, it hasn't been a 'staple' exactly.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:59:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (nellkyn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:59:15 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <001001c1dc2b$d13fac40$a6ecff3e@k5k9u6>

----- Original Message -----
From: Megan Robertson <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] more on the sop


> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404082015.00ac34e0@mail.verizon.net>
> Greetings dear hearts.
>
> ISO9000 can be described thus: -
>
> 1. Thou shalt have procedures.
>
> 2. Thou shalt follow thy procedures.
>
> 3. Thou shalt document that thou hast followed thy procedures.
>
> Hugs and kisses,
>
> Mexal.

Please stop it and make it go away! I've just suffered a BSI surveillance
visit today. Traveller is where I get away from the real world.

Obtrav
Would there be a standards institute in the 3I?
Would ISO 9000 appeal to the Vilani sense bureaucracy?

I for one, don't bloody care on either count.

Neil

Quality Manager by day.
TML Lurker by night.

>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:07:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:07:24 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <164.b94855a.29de3657@cs.com>

--part1_164.b94855a.29de3657_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Mark Urbin writes:


> Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.
> 
> 

Done that.

"My card..."
-------------------------------------

Ambrose Bartholomew Lovejoy
        Accountant-at-War

-------------------------------------

Doug Grimes

--part1_164.b94855a.29de3657_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Tahoma" LANG="0">Mark Urbin writes:
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Tahoma" LANG="0">
<BR>Done that.
<BR>
<BR>"My card..."
<BR>-------------------------------------
<BR>
<BR>Ambrose Bartholomew Lovejoy
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Accountant-at-War
<BR>
<BR>-------------------------------------
<BR>
<BR>Doug Grimes</FONT></HTML>

--part1_164.b94855a.29de3657_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404162723.00a8aea0@urbin.net>
References: <005e01c1dc0d$850509b0$c8d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174321.02af7ac0@pop.wizard.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
 >>>
Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.
<<<

Hm, it might be fun to turn that into a sort of elite super soldier/private 
cop gig.  Combine war fighting skills with investigative skills, and only 
the best of the best are able to do the job effectively.  They get paid 
ridiculously well to go to war zones and verify that everyone from the 
generals to the supply sergeants to the front-line unit leaders really are 
doing what they report they're doing.  They have to verify not only the 
accuracy of financial reports but also compliance with all the various 
regulations affecting mercenaries, including code of war stuff.

A silly idea, but makes for nice cinematic possibilities.

Oh, speaking of which.  I saw three movies in the last two days that might 
be of interest to RPGers.  'We Were Soldiers', 'Blade 2', and 'Resident 
Evil'.  I was surprised to see that my favorite of the three was 'Resident 
Evil'.  My short reviews follow.

'We Were Soldiers'  I was both disappointed and riveted at the same 
time.  Might provide some useful background and even plot ideas to a 
referee sending military units from a peaceful garrison life to a battle 
zone.  The garrison life it shows is a period and setting I'm very familiar 
with from my own childhood, and in some ways it was very convincing, but 
overall it was definitely the Hollywood version where star power counts for 
more than character development, historical accuracy, or anything 
else.  I'm going to try the book, which I suspect is about 100 times 
better.  Mel Gibson did his best but is about fifteen years too old for his 
part.

'Blade 2'  Even more gorily repulsive than I expected.  It's a shame that 
an impressively talented actor like Wesley Snipes only seems to be able to 
make such things.  And a shame to waste the ever-interesting Kris 
Kristofferson on something so vulgar.  He's a Rhodes scholar, and he's come 
to this?  Gaming referees and players alike may find that most of the plot 
twists can be seen coming from several kilometers away.  They did do a nice 
piece of writing when they rationalized a humans working for a vampire with 
the term 'familiar'.  Which was probably in the first 'Blade' but I forgot 
it.  If you're only there looking for source material, leave after the 
first five minutes that show scary high-tech vampires cum martial artists 
infiltrating the good guys' bat cave.  This included the vampires wearing 
insectoid-looking hoods and goggles.  When they'd speak to each other, I at 
first thought that their hoods/masks were doing encryption of their speech 
so it came out like a hissing sound, and presumably their hoods also 
included earphones with built-in decryption of incoming speech.  They were 
actually speaking in a foreign language, I guess.  But 
encrypting/decrypting speech is a cool idea.  Good guys and bad guys alike 
can say whatever they want to each other right in front of their 
enemies.  Just whisper into their built-in mikes.  I should probably go 
pitch this to law enforcement and the military now and see if I can make 
some money from it.  DARPA probably wants to throw money at me.  Oh, Snipes 
"cleverly" places a tiny explosive device on the back of the head of one of 
the vampires, so that he can ensure the vampire's cooperation.  This may 
have a very small interest as source material for gaming.

'Resident Evil'  Like 'Blade', it's a shame a talented actor like Milla 
Jovovich (and some of the rest of its cast) are only getting work in a 
superficial action adventure flick.  But this one has more creativity in 
its little finger than 'Blade' can ever accumulate even if it goes on for 
another twenty sequels.  If you've played the computer game it sprang from, 
then you probably already know the major plot twists, but I've never played 
it, so they were all new to me and mostly kept me guessing until the end, 
which was itself fairly predictable.  But it wasn't trying to be 
unpredictable, and it was fine.  It comes dangerously close for awhile to 
becoming just another "small band versus undead zombies" horror flick, with 
a few nice science fiction touches, but it rose above that.  Like almost 
all "science" fiction movies and a lot of writing, genetics and mutation 
are laughable.  But in context, the disbelief suspenders weren't stretched 
too far.  'Blade' had the exact same problem, but was a bigger strain on 
the suspenders.  'Resident Evil' could have used more character 
development, too, but it did better than most films of its genre at 
this.  Pacing was quite good, and most FX were competent to really 
interesting.  If this film had come out twenty years ago, it probably would 
have been seminal.  Much like 'Alien' was.  It may yet be influential in 
some ways.  This is the only one I've seen of the recent crop of movies 
developed from games.  I'm not nominating it for any Oscar categories that 
I can think of, but it's definitely worth viewing if you've any interest at 
all in this sort of thing.  And if you're a nonhomosexual male like me, 
there's plenty of eye candy for you.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C360B@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

<snip of Laning's movie reviews>

Regarding Resident Evil, it also had some interesting anti-hijack routines
masked as bio-hazard containment.  Particularly liked the system in the hall
leading to the Red Queen :D

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <B8D22554.3750B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Because I'm too lazy to figure this out myself (yeah, right!)

I am trying to converts old TML archives into a format that the new Mailman
archiver can use.  Here the problem.  When the messages were originally
saved, they were saved as digests with most of the header stripped of each
message.  The current header looks like this:


    Date: [day of week], [day] [month] [year] [time] [offset]
    From: Poster@domain.com <poster@domain.com>
    Subject: Subject

    [body of message]

    whitespace

    next header

I need to read the date and from lines and generate a new line and insert it
as the first line in the header so that the header looks like this:


    From poster@domain.com [day of week] [month] [day] [time] [year]
    Date: [day of week], [day] [month] [year] [time] [offset]
    From: Poster@domain.com <poster@domain.com>
    Subject: Subject

    [body of message]

    whitespace

    next header

if I can get a script to do this , it looks like we can recover all the TML
and Xboat archives back to 1995 and post them to the web.

Thanks, Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22554.3750B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8D22554.3750B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405100301.A22271@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> I need to read the date and from lines and generate a new line and insert it
> as the first line in the header so that the header looks like this:
> 
>     From poster@domain.com [day of week] [month] [day] [time] [year]
>     Date: [day of week], [day] [month] [year] [time] [offset]
>     From: Poster@domain.com <poster@domain.com>
[...]
> if I can get a script to do this , it looks like we can recover all the TML
> and Xboat archives back to 1995 and post them to the web.

What language would you like the script written in?  I should be able
to do it in Perl relatively easily, if that suits.  The only
difficulty might arise if the original headers don't *exactly* conform
to the format described.

If you send me a 100k or so sample of the archives, I will write a
script and test it out on the sample.  That way, I can check whether
any of the original headers deviate by lacking a comma in the date, or
a strangely formatted email address, or something.  I should have
a script that basically works by tomorrow.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204050006.DJD04253@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a 
>staple of SF since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.
>

Maybe I should re-read Triplanetary, and run a campaign with 
the big gun cruisers like the Chicago.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204050009.DJD04543@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

If I could have an example of both files, I'm sure I could 
write something, but it would be a Windows app.

I do this sort of thing all day long, mostly to pile things 
from spreadsheets and word documents into tables in Oracle.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <20020405100301.A22271@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B8D22C91.37518%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 4:03 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> What language would you like the script written in?  I should be able
> to do it in Perl relatively easily, if that suits.  The only
> difficulty might arise if the original headers don't *exactly* conform
> to the format described.
> 
> If you send me a 100k or so sample of the archives, I will write a
> script and test it out on the sample.  That way, I can check whether
> any of the original headers deviate by lacking a comma in the date, or
> a strangely formatted email address, or something.  I should have
> a script that basically works by tomorrow.

SAMPLE FOLLOWS:

####################################
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #999
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
Errors-To: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
Precedence: bulk


Traveller-digest       Monday, August 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 999



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: HEPlar lives!
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
OT but interesting Keith Bro. note
Re: Hudson-class Lander (GTL9)
Re: Low ship weight
Re: Grav deck plates.
Re: Low ship weight (and Grav Plates too)
Starship Combat Tweak
Re: Bureaucrats
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #998
Re: RE Squad Leader LONG
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Grav deck plates.
Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)
Off topic - Insulting Leonard
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)
Re: Slings and Outrageous Fortunes of War
Re: Andre Norton Followups...
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Cloning (was Hard Science)
BITS and delays in response
Re: The Heritage Trilogy
Re Slings

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: HEPlar lives!

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Well, how about "large" deep holes? :-)

As long as by 'large deep holes' you mean 'wider than it is deep' sure.  A
typical free trader would probably make a crater some 20-30m deep and
50-100m across.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:18:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Tom writes:

> > *cough*.  If you really want people toasting small cities with their
> > engines, go for it.  HEPlaR has a power output of roughly 15 megawatts
> > per  newton of thrust -- your average free trader, at something like 20
> > million  newtons thrust, generates the equiva
> > lent of a 50 kiloton nuclear weapon every second...
> 
> Just curious, but isn't this why most downports have landing pads separated
>  from living quarters?  Some of them with high earthwork walls? ...or am I
>  missing the point?

Yah, you're missing the point.  You have the equivalent of a strategic
nuclear weapon going off every time a ship lands or takes off, this will
destroy the landing field in a single landing (in fact, it will also tend to
destroy the ship) and destroy the entire port in short order.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:15:54 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: OT but interesting Keith Bro. note

Just thumbing through Cinescape magazine and noticed an article about a
new Dune novel. It's being written by Brian Herbert (son of Frank) and
Kevin J. Keith. Since this book (actually first of a trilogy) is a
prequel to the classics, it might have some further insight into the
classic Dunes Imperial politics, maybe fodder for 3I politics?
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:23:37 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hudson-class Lander (GTL9)

>> OK, OK, we'll play "Flight of the Valkyries" while we approach, "Will ye
>no
>> come back again" after we land.
>>
>
>Awwww, not "Flight"  It's been done to death, can't we have something
>original?


Isn't that *Ride* of the Valkyries?

Although I seem to remember that the direct translation is "The Valkyries"
so it might well be a cross-pond translation thing.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:29:09 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Low ship weight

>I read somewhere (I think it was an issue of Challenge) that if cargoes of
>greater than standard density (ie 1 ton per cubic meter) were carried, the
>ships performance should be re-calculated if it was likely to take the
ships
>mass over 15 tons per cubic meter.


Yep.

But then, I tend to recalculate the ship's performance every time we change
the cargo load, so I'm more twisted than most players.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:31:39 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Grav deck plates.

>But if you are along a wall (or the floor or ceiling) you'll *also*
>stay right there unless some force moves you.


Under AG you're pushing against the floor with enough force to accelerate
you upward at 1 gee, at least momentarily. Unless you can adjust that force
perfectly to match the decrease in AG (which you probably can't if it's
instantaneous and comes without warning) then you'll push yourself off.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:35:40 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Low ship weight (and Grav Plates too)

>Got me thinking:  Is 20 tonnes per displacement ton the maximum deck
>loading?


Even if it is then it's possible to build a specialised cradle to spread the
weight of particularly heavy cargoes. The maximum deck pressure wouldn't be
much of a problem for properly packaged and loaded freight, but it could be
if the players are trying to recover a relic grav tank or something....


>On a vaguely related thread, suppose you drop a huge cargo container onto
>you deck plate from a height of a few metres.  How much damage would it do?
>Would it screw up the grav plate?  (I ask purely from interest of course,
my
>character would never actually have done such a thing to her ship...)


Well, taking current ships and aircraft as a basis, that's would utterly
knacker your floor, probably requiring expensive repairs and maybe even
making a hole. A couple of metres is a long way to fall under 1g. The grav
plate? Well, I'd say that's pretty much up to the GM.


NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:31:26 -0500
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Starship Combat Tweak

First, I want to thank everyone who answered my Starship Combat
question.  All of you really made me think about the nature of starship
combat at very close ranges.  There were several thoughts that I
probably would not have come up with on my own (in fact, I know I
wouldn't have thought in some directions at all).

Thanks.

You've been a big help to my game.

I LOVE this freaking list.



RANGE MODS:

Anyway, I've simplified the thoughts, and I've come up with a simple
addition to CT starship combat.

I'm just adding two different range modifiers to the to hit throw.
These were derived from your comments and the two range modifiers
already printed in the CT rules.

Range to target 5,000 km or closer?     +2 DM

Range to target 2,000 km or closer?      +5 DM



HEX/RANGE BAND SIZE:

For the close ranges in this boarding scenario, I've changed the
hex/range band size to 1,000 km each.



LENGTH OF ROUND:

To coincide with the internal combat going on inside the ships, I'm
changing the starship combat round for this scenario to a 6 second
round--just like the personal combat round I'm using.

I'll probably run 3-5 rounds inside the ship, then 3-5 rounds outside,
keeping everything constant.



ROF:

Looking at T4's Starships book (imagine that!  I used it!), I see that
most lasers on small scale ships have an ROF of 10 (for the 10 minute T4
combat round).  With extra power, those all can easily be boosted to 100
ROF.

Doing the required math, those weapons will fire exactly once per 6
seconds (with the ROF 100 figure).

That's perfect.  In this very close range scenario I have, these two
ships carving away at each other should turn out to be a meatgrinder of
an encounter.

That's exactly what I want.

Thanks again, to all.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:37:30 -0700
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Bureaucrats

Of course, with your average group of PCs, this will last for about five
minutes before someone decides to show the offending bureacrat his "special
authorization", aka the business end of a firearm...



- --------------
Kelly St.Clair   "At last we will reveal our pants to the Jedi.  At last we
kellys@efn.org    will have revenge."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:40:52 -0700
From: "Mike Linsenmayer" <mlinsenmayer@symantec.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #998

Can someone send me a e-mail if they see this in the post...
Still having problems posting....
mlinsenmayer@symantec.com

I have some new artwork.. not good as Jesses though  ;)

http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace/art/picture-b.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:43:15 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: RE Squad Leader LONG

>>Note that lasers, can paint targets for guided munitions at darn near any
>>range in SL terms. (Unless you've got 16 boards stuck end to end. <grin>)
>
> Thus, if a squad can keep a LOS on a target, that target
> could be hit almost all the time at TL 9 (roll 11- on 2D?).


35 hits out of 36 with laser-guided munitions?

Are you American, by any chance? <g>

NB
- --
(Before y'all flame me - I'm kidding...)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:44:44 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

>> Just curious, but isn't this why most downports have landing pads
separated
>>  from living quarters?  Some of them with high earthwork walls? ...or am
I
>>  missing the point?
>
>Yah, you're missing the point.  You have the equivalent of a strategic
nuclear weapon going off every time a ship lands or takes off, this will
destroy the landing field in a single landing (in fact, it will also tend to
destroy the ship) and destroy the entire port in short order.


Indeed.

Which is why (okay, I use the TNE rules) I assume ships take off under
contra-grav (air bouyancy) and occasioanl low-thrust puffs from the engines
for directional control.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:52:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Nick Bradbeer writes:
 
> Indeed.
> 
> Which is why (okay, I use the TNE rules) I assume ships take off under
> contra-grav (air bouyancy) and occasioanl low-thrust puffs from the engines
> for directional control.

Oh, certainly, as long as you have ships with both CG and HEPlaR, and only
use HEPlaR in space, you're fine -- however, standard designs frequently
don't have contragravity.  HEPlaR is a fast way to commit suicide in any
sort of atmosphere, or near the ground.  Incidentally, contragravity is
capable of doing directional control without any use of thrust anyway.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:57:23 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

>Oh, certainly, as long as you have ships with both CG and HEPlaR, and only
use HEPlaR in space, you're fine -- however, standard designs frequently
don't have contragravity.  HEPlaR is a fast way to commit suicide in any
sort of atmosphere, or near the ground.  Incidentally, contragravity is
capable of doing directional control without any use of thrust anyway.


Well, every single ship in Brilliant Lances (that's all the classic designs)
has contra grav, except for the Lab Ship, Donosev, Chrysanthemum and Aurora.
All those four are unstreamlined, and thus not atmosphere-capable.


I thought CG could only change the magnitude of your gravitational vector
(ie reducing it by up to two orders of magnitude), not affect the direction
of it. If it can affect the vector's direction, has it not just become a
thruster plate?

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:07:52 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Grav deck plates.

At 01:03 AM 8/23/99 -0800, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
> > That was my solution in a (forgive me, I have sinned... I was young,
> > naive...) Star Trek game once.  After the bad guys transported to our
> > bridge.  Hold on to the console, and just flip the AG on and off.... as
> > everyone floats off the deck and then crashes back down.
>
>Not-so-silly question.
>
>Why would they "float off the deck"?
>
>Seriously, this is *the* single biggest error in damn near every movie,
>TV program and even *story* that deals with zero-g.
>
>If you are in the middle of a compartment in zero g, you'll stay there
>unless some force pulls or pushes you out of that location.
>
>But if you are along a wall (or the floor or ceiling) you'll *also*
>stay right there unless some force moves you.
>
>Removing gravity *won't* make you "float up". But your muscles mighgt
>push you off gently.

Well, at that particular moment, the bad guys (can't remember who they were
now...Cardassians maybe...)  had just transported aboard and were in the
process of running around the bridge disarming the crew, shouting at
people, and generally swaggering a lot (on second thought, maybe they were
Klingons...).  It seemed to me that chances were good that most of them
were in the process of taking a step as the gravity shut off, and would
thus be flung away from the floor.  Even those that were standing perfectly
still, would still automatically shift their weight when the gravity was
released and be unable to regain balance quickly enough to avoid falling.

IMHO, this would certainly not work against any Traveller combatants, who
are routinely trained for Zero-G operations, but remember that these were
_Star_Trek_ villains... And at least until Star Trek 6, there's been almost
no evidence that anyone in that world could fight in Zero-G.  Well, Spock
maybe....

           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
                          defend to the death your right to say it."
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
                                           -- Albert Einstein
for PGP public-key and
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:15:00 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)

Tascelt@aol.com posted:
>
>Damn it Jesse!!  Tim and I have been suggesting shirts to you for years and

>NOW your're going to do it?
>
>TAS

Ah, but *I* made a critical success roll on my Sucking Up skill.

;-)

David

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:01:45 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Off topic - Insulting Leonard

Phil Kitching wrote:

>Interesting.
>
>I thought asterisks represent bold or emphasis.
>
>Also that underscores represent underlining, which represents italics.

*Bold*

_Underline_

/Italic/

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Nick Bradbeer writes:
 
> I thought CG could only change the magnitude of your gravitational vector
> (ie reducing it by up to two orders of magnitude), not affect the direction
> of it. If it can affect the vector's direction, has it not just become a
> thruster plate?

Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only be
used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
local force of gravity.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:44:44 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

>> I thought CG could only change the magnitude of your gravitational vector
>> (ie reducing it by up to two orders of magnitude), not affect the
direction
>> of it. If it can affect the vector's direction, has it not just become a
>> thruster plate?
>
>Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only be
used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
local force of gravity.



Where does it say this? I only have access to CT and TNE canon.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:52:27 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)

Replying late to this thread, but I'd _dearly_ love to see:

 Scout base on Gas Giant Moon
 Starport Cover Outtake
 Empress Marava in port
 Highport with Free Trader



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:26:30 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Slings and Outrageous Fortunes of War

>Actually, it sounds more like a human powered trebuchet...


Yes, but they did exist..
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:17:52 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Andre Norton Followups...

>Also, you can go *nuts* trying to tie Norton's books together. I
>believe that Catseye (or one of the other books dealing with Forerunner
>artifacts) has a passing reference to the Caverns of Arzor. Which ties
>that book/series to the Hosteen Storm books. Only problem is, in the
>latter series, Earth has been rendered uninhabitable. Yet I can show
>links equally good to books like The Last Planet. :-)

The Last Planet was the ***first*** real book I ever read, as well as the
first novel and first science fiction book.  I've always imagined that the
books take place against a multi-millennium long background.  Humans
discover spaceflight by time mining the secret of spacetravel from Foreunner
technology. They start exploring space and colonizing. Eventually they meet
other races and eventually supplant them almost entirely. Over the centuries
the location of Earth is entirely forgotten, though the legend lives on.

If you figure that the stories are generally separated by centuries it's
much easier to accept the inconsistancie.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:41:31 -0700
From: Edward Swatschek <edjs@bitslayer.net>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

At 11:37 99/08/23 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
>gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only
>be used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
>local force of gravity.

This depends on the game system being used.  In TNE/FF&S, contragravity
simply reduced the gravitational vector over a specific volume by 99%.  In
an atmosphere, this might make the ship neutrally or positively buoyant,
but no thrust is involved - that would be provided by HEPlaR or some other
engine.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:05:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Edward Swatschek writes:

> This depends on the game system being used.  In TNE/FF&S, contragravity
> simply reduced the gravitational vector over a specific volume by 99%.  In
> an atmosphere, this might make the ship neutrally or positively buoyant,
> but no thrust is involved - that would be provided by HEPlaR or some other
> engine.
 
Um...wrong ;)  It provided 10-20% of gravitational force sideways in
TNE/FF&S.  In Striker it could provide any amount of sideways force.  I
don't know about T4 or MT.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:10:22 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Edward Swatschek wrote:
> 
> At 11:37 99/08/23 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> >Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
> >gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only
> >be used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
> >local force of gravity.
> 
> This depends on the game system being used.  In TNE/FF&S, contragravity
> simply reduced the gravitational vector over a specific volume by 99%.  In
> an atmosphere, this might make the ship neutrally or positively buoyant,
> but no thrust is involved - that would be provided by HEPlaR or some other
> engine.

In FF&S2, page 18 (gravitic vehicle design sequence):  "Most of the
force is directed parallel to the gravity field (straight up and down),
but a fraction of the lift is available to provide thrust."

This sentence is repeated almost verbatim on page 65, dealing with
thrust agencies.

Under "Reactionless Thrusters" (also page 65, FF&S2):
"...'Contragravity' at earlier tech levels can only interact with the
local gravitational field (and is hence limited to use near a planetary
surface)...."

Hope this helps....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:28:37 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com>
Subject: Re: Cloning (was Hard Science)

> Tom wrote:
> > Perhaps this is one of the reasons that cloning never took off big in the
> > 3I, Ziru Sirka, or Rule of Man.  Surely the nobility in all three Imperiums
> > wouldn't want an emperor/emperess to live forever even in cloned form.  The
> > Moot would never stand for it.  OTOH there were alot of emperors in the 3I
> > that were suceeded by assassination.  Maybe they were looking in to the
> > forbidden(?) science of cloning?
> 
> Well, other than Cleon the Mad, and Strephon the Clone, the rest of the
> Emperors who died by 'right of assasination' were all Barracks Emperors during
> the Civil War. They all died not for experimenting with cloning, but
> experimenting with crowning themselves Emperor.;-)

You're forgetting the Empress that Cleon The Not Wrapped Too Tight whacked.
<grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
                                                     Science-Fiction
Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:15:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS and delays in response

Hi all,

DISCLAIMER - Not an official statement on behalf of BITS, but an
explanation:

Some of you writing to us by email may have seen some delay in response
from BITS. Firstly, we aren't ignoring you! BITS is run by volunteers, and
at the moment we are pulling together the material for release at GenCon UK
99, preparing to run the trade stand, 3 RPGA tournaments and a number of
demonstrations, and dealing with real life(tm) (imminent fatherhood for
some people, major work projects etc). We only have a small active CORE
<grin> which means that time is being juggled.

At present, we have four books in the last stages of preparation (you've
seen 3 advertised here, ACQ being the fourth) plus three tournaments (which
require nearly the same effort), and we're also doing the usual newsletter,
2nd hand material and website...

Hopefully, once GenCon is out of the way things will calm down, and we'll
go through the non-urgent mails. if you need to contact someone at BITS
(bits@bits.org.uk) urgently, mark your subject line URGENT, or copy me (for
example). I hope to see some of you in the flesh at GenCon UK 99, maybe for
a drink at the bar, or a game at the stand or the demo area. FWIW we are
actually in two locations this year - in the trade hall, and running demos
in the balcony above (GURPS Traveller & T4 as the standards, but I'm sure
we'll get volunteers for CT, MT and TNE as ever). As ever, we're happy for
anyone who wants to volunteer to try their hand at running a game/demo.

All the best,

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
                       MiB - Marines in Battledress
   "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:22:13 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: The Heritage Trilogy

At 06:01 AM 8/23/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I started with the second one, Luna Marine. It's definitely a lot less
>jingoistic than the first, concentrating less on the UN as an evil empire
>and more on the ramifications of the "Hunters of Dawn". The "Hunters of
>Dawn" are dominate cultures that go around killing off lower tech cultures
>before they evolve enough technology to kill them. A very cool thought for a
>Traveller campaign.

Wasn't that the premise of Weber's Mutineer Moon/Armageddon inheritance
series as well?

           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
                          defend to the death your right to say it."
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
                                           -- Albert Einstein
for PGP public-key and
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:28:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Slings

>William F. Hostman wrote:
>>
>> A staff sling is essentially a hand sling on a 2m pole... and is not
>> twirled, but used exactly like an atlatl, only much easier to do
>> successfully.
>
>Actually, it sounds more like a human powered trebuchet...
>
Trebuchets keep a cup fixed to the end of the arm, and the cup remains open.

Staff slings: the sling's cup is attached by two lines (3-4 feet long is
good). One of these is fixed to the pole near the end. The other string is
terminated in a loop small enough not to fall past the first one's
fixation, but loose enough to fall off if you point the tip down. The start
position is with the staff parrallel tothe deck tip behind you, with a
loaded pocket.Generally, you then (rapidly) bring forward the staff til it
is roughly 45 degrees from parallel in front of you. The second loop lets
go normally about when you stop the swing, but the cup is lagging. When the
string lets go, several things happen, including putting a spin on the
projectile, converting that rotational velocity into linear velocity, and
also opening up the cup to actually let the projectile go.

The thing can be used while kneeling (I've done it). In a Short trench, two
guys could work it easily.

Oh, and just for reference, a golf ball can occasionally be sent  over 200
m in flat terrain by a practiced stafslinger.

William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click
interface!"
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-
533
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis
http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis    ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #999
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <200204050028.DJF00683@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I expect that there will be major revisions, and additions.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:29:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:29:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204050009.DJD04543@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 4:09 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> If I could have an example of both files, I'm sure I could
> write something, but it would be a Windows app.
> 

Repeat after me

windows = hell
Bill Gates = anitchrist

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bryn Monnery)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <182.62a974a.29dca666@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405015316.02b11020@pop.mail.yahoo.com>

At 13:39 03/04/02 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 02/04/02 22:58:51 GMT Daylight Time, 
>ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:
>
>
>>TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to 
>>He4.  One
>>assumes the neutron problems have been solved.
>
>
>Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing 
>"up" to He4 :)

Protium - Protium fusion (Protium = Hydrogen-1, Deuterium = Hydrogen-2, 
Tritium = Hydgrogen-3)

Bryn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:06:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:06:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod says that Microsoft and Bill Gates are evil
<snip>

Yes, but that's what my customers use.
I used to have my head in the sand, and only worked on OS/2 
and Solaris machines.

I was unemployed for quite a while.

Then, I started chanting

By the beans of Java
I set my mind in motion...

and did the Windows dance.  And said, "I like making Larry 
Ellison rich.  Everyone buy Oracle now."

Let's not mention that I like Smalltalk, Unix, and DB/2.

ObTrav:  There has to be a similar monopoly in Imperial 
space, and everyone would buy into it, even if it didn't work 
very well.  There have to be "standards", you know.  And it 
wouldn't be the best system, or language, or database, etc. 
It would be the one that had the most ruthless marketing.  
And no Imperial law would stop it.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
In-Reply-To: <3CAA76E1.BA4A2BC6@premier.net>
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>
 <p04330105b8d0233486e4@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA76E1.BA4A2BC6@premier.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b8d2ab0aa6d7@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:28 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
>"David P. Summers" wrote:
>>
>>  At 7:41 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
>>  >"David P. Summers" wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >>  In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
>>  >>  tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
>>  >>  arrays.....
>>  >
>>  >Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
>>  >masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....
>>
>>  But the tags would be unforgeable based on the penguins DNA!  Clearly
>>  this would be justified based on the threat that penguins pose.  (How
>>  could the Imperium  claim to control their territory if penguins roam
>>  free?)
>
>Then the penguins merely graft a patch of non-penguin-waterfowl skin and
>feathers to the tag attachment point (ideally waterfowl generally
>engaged as tramp freighters or system defense birds), change the tag
>code to suit the new DNA and proceed on their marauding ways.... ;-)
>
>The struggle between measure and countermeasure is a never-ending one,
>as neither side is likely to gain lasting superiority.

But the Imperium has so many ships that they could afford to have one 
sitting anyplace a penguin might threaten the public safety!
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMELMDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Bill doesn't rate higher than apostate or a false profit, tops

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

on 4/4/02 4:09 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> If I could have an example of both files, I'm sure I could
> write something, but it would be a Windows app.
>

Repeat after me

windows = hell
Bill Gates = anitchrist

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEELNDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Must be the company that makes the Anti-Hijacking software for CT. Or
whoever made fighter craft so impotent.

I want a PA barbette on my Mk V fighter! waaaah

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

ObTrav:  There has to be a similar monopoly in Imperial
space, and everyone would buy into it, even if it didn't work
very well.  There have to be "standards", you know.  And it
wouldn't be the best system, or language, or database, etc.
It would be the one that had the most ruthless marketing.
And no Imperial law would stop it.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 18:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr  4 18:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204051011470.16403-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Tod:

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Repeat after me
>
> windows = hell
> Bill Gates = anitchrist

 Ah a man with similiar sentiments.

"Windows is not the answer. It is the problem. The answer is NO!"

"Window, just say NO!!"

 From your friendly Biased Commodore only user. <VBG>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 18:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr  4 18:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
References: <200204041157.DIF02066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404185037.009f1170@mindspring.com>

At 05:04 PM 4/4/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Classic Traveller says the default blade skill that Marines cascade to is 
>Bayonet.  For reasons of tradition, esprit de corps, inspiring confidence 
>in troops, and instilling the proper spirit of attack.  Same reasons that 
>Marc Miller had to suffer through bayonet drills when he was in the Army 
>even though the widespread opinion of the day was that bayonet training is 
>obsolete.

Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while 
desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to 
perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 19:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 19:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174808.00a7d008@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404215235.01f48c40@192.168.0.1>

At 02:56 PM 4/4/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Mark Urbin writes:
> >
> > The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF
> > since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.
>
>Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a reference _since_ Lensman, though 
>there
>certainly was one in Lensman.  In any case, it hasn't been a 'staple' exactly.

Ok, I stand corrected.  It's been around since Lensmen, and it *should* be 
a staple of SF. :-)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 19:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 19:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404185037.009f1170@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 6:52 PM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while
> desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to
> perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.
> 

In point of fact, the bayonet is more of a hazard to the soldier than an
aide.  During the last war for which we have statistics (Vietnam), more
soldiers injured themselves with bayonets than were injured by enemy
bayonets.  This is also true of WWII.

Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary weapon of the
infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  number of wounds caused by
bayonets was extremely small.

The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed civilians.  It has little or
no military application, contrary to popular mythos.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 19:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr  4 19:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
References: <200204041157.DIF02066@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020404185037.009f1170@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c1dc54$e81469a0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Berry" <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while
> desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to
> perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.

Tell that to the British Para's...

The don't seem to feel a war is a war until they have done at least one
Bayonet Charge...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <20020405003207.32532279F6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CAD22FC.313506AE@earthlink.net>

Walt Smith posted:
> 
> They had a lot of factors working against them.  Nothing
> inside the ship was any kind of secureable except the computer
> room, since no one was supposed to be aboard except
> triple-cleared company employees.  They had a traitor in their
> midst, and a secret agenda going on from their corporate masters.
> A small group of wage-slave technicians running a cargo ship
> were way out of their league, and had an appropriate casualty
> rate.

And how would you rate the Colonial Marine unit in "Aliens"?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>

I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler
had a Derringer attached to some kind of mechanical
"holster". The device was worn somehow on the forearm
and pushed the gun into the hand.

Can anyone tell me what this device was and where
I could find details on it?


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404231607.01f78e88@192.168.0.1>

At 10:13 PM 4/4/2002 -0600, David Smart wrote:
>I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler
>had a Derringer attached to some kind of mechanical
>"holster". The device was worn somehow on the forearm
>and pushed the gun into the hand.
>Can anyone tell me what this device was and where
>I could find details on it?

Secret Service Agent James West (Wild Wild West TV show) had one too.
They loved gadgets on that show.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404231607.01f78e88@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000501c1dc5d$168ea180$2f7de40c@loki>

At 10:13 PM 4/4/2002 -0600, David Smart wrote:
>I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler

All I found are references to 'spring-loaded arm rigs' and a lot of fan
fiction to the Magnificent Seven in my google search.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B8D28F8B.37603%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405024811.02b7a0e0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon says:
>Makes me think that a lot of navigators will get their
>training doing Imperial x-boat, and then change career to fly
>for a private broker or a merchant line that contracts to
>brokers.

Nice touch it.  I'll use it.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Navigator skill affecting jump duration & accuracy (was Re:
 economic crash)
In-Reply-To: <002d01c1dbf2$1d1b9500$52200050@matt>
References: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405024958.02b7bec0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon suggested a rule for dicing precise jump duration in plus or 
minus hours from the nominal of precisely seven days.

My memory of the 'Starship Operators Manual' from DGP isn't detailed 
enough, but they had rules on this that I really liked.  It started to give 
Navigation skill a useful purpose besides making sure somebody aboard had 
at least one level of it.  Sadly, my copy of SOP is among my trove of 
mislaid Favorite Traveller References that _still_ evades detection.  If 
only I could offer the other inanimate objects in my house a bounty for 
dropping a dime on the missing trove.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C360B@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405025738.02b7da30@pop.wizard.net>

At 03:34 PM 4/4/02 -0800, you wrote:
><snip of Laning's movie reviews>
>
>Regarding Resident Evil, it also had some interesting anti-hijack routines
>masked as bio-hazard containment.  Particularly liked the system in the hall
>leading to the Red Queen :D
>
>Jesse

Yeah, that was medieval.  In an extremely high tech way.  I think 'Resident 
Evil' has quite a bit of useful source material for RPGs, but I didn't want 
to get into spoilers.

Oh.  Jesse, my wife and I both loved the Britannia site, thanks.  The 
interior shots are all _perfect_ for use to illustrate a Traveller yacht 
(well, maybe not the bridge interior, lol).  I am completely unskilled at 
doing such things but I thought it would be great to take the ones with 
portholes and show stars or a planet from low orbit or something outside.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 00:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Fri Apr  5 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c1dc7a$655e8a60$f000a8c0@imogen>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor
> training.

I used to work a a company that tried for (and got) ISO 9000/9001
certification: it was easy-peasy!

1) Have a documented procedure for everything
2) Make sure all staff know where the latest  versions  of  those
   documents are (ie. where on the PC server)

The fact that we didn't actually follow those  procedures  (close
scrutiny would have revealed they were unworkable anyhow)  didn't
seem to matter.

Its just a case of understanding the game.



> Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.
> 
> "You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections &
> standards"

Make a "saving throw" against Admin skill to understand the  game
and avoid any significant impediments.  In MT terms ...



    To comply with local business standards.
    Routine, Admin and EDU, 1 hour (safe)

    Referee: If not familiar with local customs (ie. offworlders)
             then  increase  difficulty  to  Difficult.   Trading
             is limited until this task is passed successfully.




Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 00:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 00:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>

Any of you guys know Ruby?
http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/index.html

A guy I respect _very_ much is presently raving about it.
http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2001/10/25/ruby.html

It might as well be Sanskrit to me, I haven't looked at it at all.  But if 
Colin likes it, I like it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 00:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 00:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMELMDJAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>

BillGatus of Borg.  Bah.  I shake my head, bereft of words.

Anyway.  Back when I was doing tech support on the phones for AOL, I talked 
a guy about three times who would always pepper his conversation with how 
little respect he had for Gates, and "I knew that guy back when he went 
from user group to user group selling his stuff out of the back of a 
station wagon."  It was amusing as hell, though I didn't let that guy know 
I thought so or we would have got way off topic for a long time.  I hope 
you get a laugh out of that one.

ObTrav:  In the early 1100s, is there anyone who occupies a position 
analogous to Bill Gates in our own society today?  In terms of being 
notoriously rich and geeky and merciless and rich and reviled and admired 
and rich and ubiquitous and rich and not even Ministry of Justice bullets 
can stop him.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 04:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 04:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204051219.DKC00217@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary 
>weapon of the infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  
>number of wounds caused by bayonets was extremely small.
>

Bayonets were used successfully in the Falklands.

Also, if I find someone at the end of my bayonet, it's 
unlikely that they'll be "wounded".  It's equally unlikely 
that they'll make it to the aid station.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 04:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Fri Apr  5 04:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCMEEHDOAA.andy@exeus.com>

Try

	http://www.cia.gov/spy_fi/item21.html

and

	http://home.earthlink.net/~backslash/

They're called Sleeveguns and cost $295.

Andy Brick
andy@exeus.com
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.344 / Virus Database: 191 - Release Date: 02/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 04:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr  5 04:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B6C@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
> Sent: 05 April 2002 13:20
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
> 
> 
> Tod Glenn says
> >Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary 
> >weapon of the infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  
> >number of wounds caused by bayonets was extremely small.
> >
> 
> Bayonets were used successfully in the Falklands.

True, but the Bayonet Charge(s?) in the Falklands produced few
casualties from bayonet wounds. The principal aim of a bayonet charge is
to cause the flight or surrender of the defenders of a position. One of
the Argentinians on the receiveing end of the charge recounted in a
documentary some years later that as a 19 year old conscript the sight
of 40 or so strapping Para's charging at him with fixed bayonets,
screaming as they came, filled him with such terror that he couldn't
move... he was fixated on the fact that those guys coming at him wanted
to stick whacking great holes in him, up close and personal. As soon as
the initial terror subsided he (and now I can't recall exactly which)
either threw down his weapon and ran for his life, or threw down his
weapon and surrendered.

To quote Corporal Jones in Dad's Army... "Cold Steel, Sir. They don't
like it up 'em!"

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 05:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Fri Apr  5 05:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
References: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DAV33JYS74UiXodol1500008c87@hotmail.com>

Christian in Action has a picture of the sleeve gun assembly used by Bob
Conrad in Thee Wild, Wild West at

http://www.cia.gov/spy_fi/item21.html

The man who made the original prop was (is?) selling them to people sans
firearm.  His website at sleevegun.com is now under construction, but you
can see Google's cache of his site at

http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:_T42pJBhY0UC:sleevegun.com/+sleevegun&h
l=en&ie=UTF8

This site includes a picture of an arm rig.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com

> I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler
> had a Derringer attached to some kind of mechanical
> "holster". The device was worn somehow on the forearm
> and pushed the gun into the hand.
>
> Can anyone tell me what this device was and where
> I could find details on it?
>
>
> David
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 05:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr  5 05:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405134530.5456.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> Repeat after me
> 
> windows = hell
> Bill Gates = anitchrist

Although my Dante is rusty and my personal sentiments
don't agree...

"Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."

To Paraphrase...

"Better to trust your livlihood to Billy Bob's Window
World than to not make any living at all."

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 06:42:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri Apr  5 06:42:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
References: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt> <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se> <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt> <5.1.0.14.2.20020402201259.009ec960@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CADB846.8070706@gmx.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

 > At 07:40 PM 4/2/02 +0200, you wrote:
 >
 >> Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
 >> food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
 >> predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
 >> for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world
 >> under
 >> the ice.
 >
 >
 > Jedi Jellyfish Under The Ice!  I love it!
 >
 >
Yes...but they're probably easy meat for the Imperial Penguin Corps.

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump. 
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <F120FrbDLuPOuIGGsMq000028cf@hotmail.com>

From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>

     "I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler had a Derringer 
attached to some kind of mechanical "holster". The device was worn somehow 
on the forearm and pushed the gun into the hand."

     "Can anyone tell me what this device was and where I could find details 
on it?"


Mr. Smart,

     My admittedly brief Google search turned up little more than a lot of 
"Magnificent Seven" fan-fics.  Fiddling with the search words should bear 
fruit however.
     Another pop culture reference for such a device cn be found in 
Harrison's "Deathworld" trilogy.  The Pyrrhans(sp) are outfitted with a 
contraption that slams a very large, hair-triggered, pistol into their fists 
at the slightest twitch.  The hero, Jason din Alt mentions how learning to 
use the damn thing nearly breaks his hand.
     I've also seen gizmos tucked up one's sleeve that deliver playing 
cards.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <200204051219.DKC00217@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D2FF19.37640%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 4:19 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Bayonets were used successfully in the Falklands.

Define 'successfully'.  How many casualties were produced by bayonets?
> 
> Also, if I find someone at the end of my bayonet, it's
> unlikely that they'll be "wounded".  It's equally unlikely
> that they'll make it to the aid station.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3611@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Just to set things straight, it was John Groth that recommended the
Brittania site [tips Diet Pepsit to John <'cause it's too early for beer ;)
>]
Jesse

<snip>
Oh.  Jesse, my wife and I both loved the Britannia site, thanks.  The 
interior shots are all _perfect_ for use to illustrate a Traveller yacht 
(well, maybe not the bridge interior, lol).  I am completely unskilled at 
doing such things but I thought it would be great to take the ones with 
portholes and show stars or a planet from low orbit or something outside.

--Laning

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3cadc22c.4909163@post.demon.co.uk>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:

>The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed civilians.  It has little =
or
>no military application, contrary to popular mythos.

... I wouldn't go that far...  Firstly, bayonets were primarily a
_defensive_ weapon:  they stopped infantry being overrun and trampled
by cavalry.  ("Form square!")

Secondly, they *could* be the means by which infantry could turn an
indecisive firefight into a crushing rout of the enemy.
Unfortunately, bayonet charges like this only really worked if the
enemy was already weak and disorganised.  Against untrained native
levies in colonial warfare, bayonets were far more effective than
muskets.  They used less ammunition, too...  Unfortunately, that
tended to give those armies involved in colonial warfare an
over-inflated view of the benefits of the bayonet, which would be
disastrous once they faced the firepower of Western armies on a modern
battlefield.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <20020405134530.5456.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405074625.009ee8d0@mindspring.com>

At 05:45 AM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:

>Although my Dante is rusty and my personal sentiments
>don't agree...
>
>"Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."

That's Milton, from "Paradise Lost."

Dante's best line came from The Inferno... the inscription on the gates of 
Hell.

"I AM THE WAY INTO THE CITY OF WOE
I AM THE WAY TO A FORSAKEN PEOPLE
I AM THE WAY INTO ETERNAL SORROW

SACRED JUSTICE MOVED MY ARCHITECT
I WAS RAISED THERE BY DIVINE OMNIPOTENCE
PRIMORDIAL LOVE AND ULTIMATE INTELLECT.

ONLY THOSE ELEMENTS TIME CANNOT WEAR
WERE MADE BEFORE ME, AND BEYOND TIME I STAND.
ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."

I want that on the door to my gaming room.. :)

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <F120FrbDLuPOuIGGsMq000028cf@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405160321.61448.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>      Another pop culture reference for such a device
> cn be found in 
> Harrison's "Deathworld" trilogy.  The Pyrrhans(sp)
> are outfitted with a 
> contraption that slams a very large, hair-triggered,
> pistol into their fists 
> at the slightest twitch.  The hero, Jason din Alt
> mentions how learning to 
> use the damn thing nearly breaks his hand.

My favorite of this type is from the Alan Cole/Chris
Bunch _Sten_ series.  (Admittedly light scifi and
light reading, but as a diversion, I enjoyed it.) 

In any case, the protagonist, Sten, has a sheath
biologically implanted in his forearm.  The weapon is
grown crystals and form fitted to his hand.  The blade
tapers to molecular thickness.  A simple twitch and
the blade slides into his palm ready for use.

(Yes, I can hear the suspenders snapping/shattering,
but I did warn you that it was light scifi)

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405074625.009ee8d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020405161906.71131.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> That's Milton, from "Paradise Lost."

Thanks for the editing.  My classics are a bit rusty. 
That's what too much reading of Dr. Seuss does.


> Dante's best line came from The Inferno... the
...snippit...
> ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."
> 
> I want that on the door to my gaming room.. :)

When I play a Chief Engineer, I want it on the door to
engineering.  No need to lock it up, the passengers
will stay away without any security keeping them out. 
(Unless the passengers are Player Characters, then
Satan himself couldn't keep them from trying.)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051636.DKL02665@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

There was a Harry Harrison series of novels that also had an 
arm rig that figured prominently in the storyline.

IMHO, it looks bulky, uncomfortable, and likely to blow your 
fingers off. That, and the weapon that pops out is unlikely 
to do more than draw return fire (or put bullet holes in your 
computer at an inopportune moment). You've got maybe two 
shots, and the weapon is likely to be something weak.

If you're allowed to carry concealed, carry a regular 
pistol.  After all, even if the 9mm doesn't impress him with 
the first shot, I'm sure the remaining rounds in the magazine 
will.

That, and carry a second pistol somewhere else on the body 
for a NYPD "speedload".

ObTrav:  The easiest holdout to design would be a laser.  You 
could isolate the powerpack and electronics at some other 
location under the clothing, run a fiber optic cable to the 
hand area, contrive a trigger (ring pull?), and have the exit 
optics somewhere over the back of the hand.  If you made a 
fist, and curled the fist inward, the ring would pull the 
trigger and the beam would fire over the back of the hand.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204051641.DKL03427@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>Define 'successfully'.  How many casualties were produced by 
>bayonets?

If I win, I win. Casualties or not.

I will admit that a bayonet is a dangerous thing to have 
around.  The first casualty I saw in the Gulf War to arrive 
at the forward aid station during the ground war was a 
bayonet casualty.  A Bradley gunner was wearing his LBE open, 
and the bayonet fell out and stuck, blade up, in the back of 
his seat.  At some point, he ducked down and slammed the 
hatch overhead.  Suddenly, he noticed something cold, hard, 
and far too long up his backside.  So he stood up, and opened 
the hatch, and let the whole world know it.

I told him that he'll never be able to tell his kids about 
the war.  He spent the next two weeks lying on his face, 
while the nurses changed the packing several times a day 
without painkillers.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051643.DKL03760@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug brings up Dante
<snip>

Oh, I think that Marlowe's Mephistopheles was better:

Hell hath no limits
Nor is circumscribed in one self space
For where we are is Hell,
and where Hell is, there we shall ever be



________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 09:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (KevinC)
Date: Fri Apr  5 09:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
References: <20020405003205.D8ED7279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> I am trying to converts old TML archives into a format that the new Mailman
> archiver can use.  Here the problem.  When the messages were originally
> saved, they were saved as digests with most of the header stripped of each
> message.

Tod,

Will the new TML archive be accessible by web search engines and
bots/spiders?

If yes, then you need to do something to protect the email addresses of
anyone whose posts are in the archive.

Otherwise "harvesters" will grab them all, and spam the good ( still
active) ones.

-- 
KevinC               Pentapod's World of 2300AD
kevinc@cnetech.com   http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2303/
                     http://go.to/PentapodsWorld


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 09:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 09:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051636.DKL02665@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEMIDJAA.tml@downport.com>

A .45 Colt Derringer is two shots at point blank. By the time you pull your
Beretta out of your shoulder holster, kung foo kitty has already broken your
neck at that range. Also good in a knife fight, or after you have emptied or
lost your Colt .45

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

IMHO, it looks bulky, uncomfortable, and likely to blow your
fingers off. That, and the weapon that pops out is unlikely
to do more than draw return fire (or put bullet holes in your
computer at an inopportune moment). You've got maybe two
shots, and the weapon is likely to be something weak.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 09:27:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 09:27:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <20020405.092414.-73051.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

> --- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> > "ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."
> > 

Back in 1986 I added the above quote to our office computer system when I
was its oporator. I ran closing, mid and end of month stuff. Well, the
quote freaked out the Buyer, Accounts receivables, and a couple early
imput girls who didn't want to log on the next morning. Fortunately for
me I came in before the boss.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051758.DKN05522@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>
>A .45 Colt Derringer is two shots at point blank.

Have you seen how much a .45 Colt derringer weighs?  It's a 
steel brick.  Much better just to whack someone in the face 
with it in your fist.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:02:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:02:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051801.DKN05830@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>Well, the quote freaked out the Buyer, Accounts receivables, 
>and a couple early imput girls who didn't want to log on the 
>next morning. Fortunately for me I came in before the boss.
>

I've gotten called on the carpet for more than one e-mail sig 
that people "don't get".  Some of them were completely 
unoffensive, as far as I was concerned.

Sometimes there's a lot to be gained if none of your co-
workers know what your hobbies or prior careers were.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
References: <200204051758.DKN05522@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CADEAEB.10501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Have you seen how much a .45 Colt derringer weighs?  It's a 
> steel brick.  Much better just to whack someone in the face 
> with it in your fist.

Deal! I'll let Swordy whack me in the face with it and shoot you. Betcha 
I get up first ;-)

And they're not all that heavy...I thwacked myself on the head with my 
father-in laws' 357 Derringer once, digging in the closet for some 
shoes. A .45 isn't going to weigh a lot more than a .357 one.

(he had it in a coat pocket of one of his suits. Bruce digging in closet 
"Ah! There they are <KLONK> What the...!!!" <dig dig> "Jeez what's doing 
with a pocket cannon like that!??")

Seriously, (so to speak) DiNiro makes a rig like this in Taxi Driver out 
of a drawer slide and duct tape.

(if the women don't find ya handsome...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk> <001001c1dc2b$d13fac40$a6ecff3e@k5k9u6>
Message-ID: <3CADEB80.1080907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

nellkyn wrote:

> 
> Please stop it and make it go away! I've just suffered a BSI surveillance
> visit today. Traveller is where I get away from the real world.
> 
> Obtrav
> Would there be a standards institute in the 3I?
> Would ISO 9000 appeal to the Vilani sense bureaucracy?


One sentence that engenders fear and panic in every starship owner's 
heart: 'Bwap compliance inspector.'

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <3CADEAEB.10501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEMJDJAA.tml@downport.com>

The classic version weighs about the same as an empty coffee mug (15 oz). I
carry a mug with varying amounts of coffee in it all day long, to I'm
already in shape ;)

I suppose a light-weight could opt for a .44 at half the heft (7.5 oz) and
still be able to best a knife wielding punk.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Johnson

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Have you seen how much a .45 Colt derringer weighs?  It's a
> steel brick.  Much better just to whack someone in the face
> with it in your fist.

Deal! I'll let Swordy whack me in the face with it and shoot you. Betcha
I get up first ;-)

And they're not all that heavy...I thwacked myself on the head with my
father-in laws' 357 Derringer once, digging in the closet for some
shoes. A .45 isn't going to weigh a lot more than a .357 one.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3611@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405134053.00ab8e50@pop.wizard.net>

At 07:24 AM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Just to set things straight, it was John Groth that recommended the
>Brittania site [tips Diet Pepsit to John <'cause it's too early for beer ;)
> >]
>Jesse

I stand corrected.  John, thank you very much.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:52:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:52:29 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 9:22 AM, KevinC at kevinc@cnetech.com wrote:
> Tod,
> 
> Will the new TML archive be accessible by web search engines and
> bots/spiders?
> 
> If yes, then you need to do something to protect the email addresses of
> anyone whose posts are in the archive.
> 
> Otherwise "harvesters" will grab them all, and spam the good ( still
> active) ones.

I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>
>The classic version weighs about the same as an empty coffee 
>mug (15 oz).

Yes, and it's about half the weight of a Glock.  Half.

That, and unless we're right across the table, it's not as 
easy to hit something as one might think.  If we're as far 
apart as 15 feet, the average shooter is going to miss the 
majority of their shots at that distance (hopefully, Mr. Cook 
has given you some learned lessons).  You get two tries at 
what traditionally is 25% hits, and I get how many?

If you miss, well, I get to keep shooting.

If you're much closer than that, and I see you start the 
draw, it's a short distance to close and hold your arm down 
while I knee you in the groin.

I think that derringers were meant for shooting under the 
table without warning, or for shooting people in the back 
without warning.  The ones I've tried (American Derringer) 
had a tendency to turn in the hand between shots, and take 
time to orient correctly in the hand from the draw (perhaps 
why you'll need the sleeve gadget).

You could, of course, skip the derringer altogether and get a 
true "sleeve gun", which I'm sure Tod will have a legal 
comment on.  

ObTrav: there isn't much "law level" commentary on concealed 
weaponry. Does anyone have house rules on this?

I am less likely to find a derringer on your person with a 
hand search, especially if I'm careless.

I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed 
(in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so 
legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through 
their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears 
off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police 
detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out 
of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a 
no no to begin with).  


________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:07:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:07:29 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:51:56AM -0800
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com> <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405120614.B19040@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:51:56AM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

I would think the GNU Mailman would do this for you...

# $email = &obfuscate_email($email)
#        or
# @emails = &obfuscate_email(@emails)

sub obfuscate_email
{
  my @email = @_;
  my $email;

  foreach $email (@email)
  {
    $email =~ s/@/ at /g;
    $email =~ s/\./ dot /g;
  }
  if ($#email)
  {
    return @email;
  } else {
    return $email[0];
  }
}

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only kind of freedom that the mob can imagine is freedom to annoy
and oppress its betters, and that is precisely the kind that we mainly
have.                                                   --H.L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:09:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:09:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:21:18AM -0500
References: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020405120835.C19040@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:21:18AM -0500, laning wrote:
>
> Any of you guys know Ruby?

I'm afraid it doesn't do a whole lot for me.  I like perl, python,
scheme and C.  I'm sure I would like Common Lisp.  SmallTalk never did
a lot for me, and for awhile I thought C++ was cool--but I no longer
do.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There isn't a single useful thing that we in the CS community can come
up with that some @&%! marketer can't abuse.                 --devphil

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <20020405120614.B19040@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B8D3378F.376BE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 11:06 AM, Robert A. Uhl at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:51:56AM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>> 
>> I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.
> 
> I would think the GNU Mailman would do this for you...
> 
> # $email = &obfuscate_email($email)
> #        or

I haven't looked at the old archives to see how email is buried in there.
In the new lists, all email addresses point to the list address, and any
spammer who want to post to that will have to subscribe to the list.  Then
they'll get all the tml email -- counter spam!
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:15:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:15:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051914.DKP06560@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>SmallTalk never did a lot for me

You must like strong typing.  I learned to love programming 
again.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mole)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3378F.376BE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8D33890.5666%mole@solsec.org>

on 4/5/02 11:14 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> I haven't looked at the old archives to see how email is buried in there.
> In the new lists, all email addresses point to the list address, and any
> spammer who want to post to that will have to subscribe to the list.  Then
> they'll get all the tml email -- counter spam!
> --

"I see your spam and raise you several hundred counter spams"

-- 
Mole


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204051057330.14455-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, laning wrote:
> Any of you guys know Ruby?
> http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/index.html

I've been looking at it; it looks pretty nice.  Most criticisms I've seen
about it tend to point to Python as a better language, though.  As a
result, I'm learning them both at pretty much the same time.  Hard to make
an informed choice without knowing both, after all.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204051914.DKP06560@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:14:24PM -0500
References: <200204051914.DKP06560@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405123244.A19291@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:14:24PM -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> >SmallTalk never did a lot for me
> 
> You must like strong typing.  I learned to love programming 
> again.

I rather think you must mean _static_ typing.  Strong typing means
that expression are guaranteed to be type-safe (either at compile or
run time).  This is the case in nearly every language _but_ C, C++ and
assembler.  Weak typing means, for example, that you can try to add 14
to a string.  The results are generally unexpected.

Static typing means that a variable's type is checked once, at compile
time, and that it never changes.  This is the case in C.  Dynamic
typing is common in most other languages, including Python, SmallTalk
and Scheme.

I like dynamic strong typing.  Weak typing is too error-prone for my
tastes.  Hence I like Scheme a lot.  E.g.:

(define x 3)
(set! x "I am a happy string")
(set! x (lambda (y) (+ (sqrt y) (expt y 2))))

Are all legal.  However, strong typing means that:

(define x "This is a string")
(* x 7)

Is illegal, because * does not handle strings.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
RFC 882 put the dot in .com.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
References: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CADFCD0.6000801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Mark Urbin writes:
> 
>>The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF 
>>since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.
> 
> 
> Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a reference _since_ Lensman, though there
> certainly was one in Lensman.  In any case, it hasn't been a 'staple' exactly.

"Space Viking" H. Beam Piper

"The Forever War" mentions something like this, IIRC, but it's been a 
*long* time since I read it.

Many of the Flandry series, by Poul Anderson mention troopers using 
melee arms. I specifically remember one passage about a big trooper in 
battle dress wielding a 'collapsium-plated battle axe'.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051937.DKR02226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I can add 14 to a String in Smalltalk -- it's just that I'll 
get the message

"String does not understand +"

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:38:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:38:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 10:57 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> Yes, and it's about half the weight of a Glock.  Half.
> 
> That, and unless we're right across the table, it's not as
> easy to hit something as one might think.  If we're as far
> apart as 15 feet, the average shooter is going to miss the
> majority of their shots at that distance (hopefully, Mr. Cook
> has given you some learned lessons).  You get two tries at
> what traditionally is 25% hits, and I get how many?

As a note, it should be mentioned that a derringer's intrinsic accuracy is
the same as for any short barreled pistol.  It's the form factor that is the
problem.  If you put a derringer or any other short barrel handgun in a
Ransom rest, they can shoot remarkably well.

Personally, I think they are pretty useless except as a totalaly last
result.
> 
> I think that derringers were meant for shooting under the
> table without warning, or for shooting people in the back
> without warning.  The ones I've tried (American Derringer)
> had a tendency to turn in the hand between shots, and take
> time to orient correctly in the hand from the draw (perhaps
> why you'll need the sleeve gadget).

Assuming the sleeve gadget works.
> 
> You could, of course, skip the derringer altogether and get a
> true "sleeve gun", which I'm sure Tod will have a legal
> comment on. 

'Disguised' guns are a tricky proposition when dealing with ATF.  For
example, someone developed a holster that holds a derringer, and the
derringer can be fired from within the wallet shaped holster.

"Here's my wallet, sir, Just don't hurt me.  BLAM!  BLAM!"

ATF says that such a wallet and gun constitutes a disguised firearm and must
be registered (I believe and an AOW -- Any Other Weapon $5 transfer tax).
Gun guns, pen guns and other such weapons classify as AOWs.
> 
> ObTrav: there isn't much "law level" commentary on concealed
> weaponry. Does anyone have house rules on this?

Coming right up
> I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
> (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
> legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
> their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
> off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
> detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
> of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
> no no to begin with).

Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.
> 
> 
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <3cadc22c.4909163@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B8D33EA8.376DB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 7:42 AM, Stephen Tempest at tml@stempest.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
>> The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed civilians.  It has little or
>> no military application, contrary to popular mythos.
> 
> ... I wouldn't go that far...  Firstly, bayonets were primarily a
> _defensive_ weapon:  they stopped infantry being overrun and trampled
> by cavalry.  ("Form square!")

But what about Elan!

They were supposedly very offensive as well.  In an infantry charge with
musket you could get off one round and then it was 'in with the bayonet'.

The problem is that neither side really like the bayonet.  We it comes right
down to it, the attackers rarely actually thrust into their opponents. Look
at the reports of the number of actual bayonet wounds in the Napoleonic
wars, or even the American civil war.  The other side usually runs before it
gets to that, or the attackers stop short.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:47:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:47:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEMMDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Sorry to get you going on this stuff. I've been comparing a derringer to a
knife or a fist. 15 feet is as good as a mile with a derringer (at least for
me). This is more of the Body Pistol argument. It is not a serious weapon,
it is bit of muscle when you don't have a serious weapon. It is a bang when
they expect a punch. Not having any aiming abilities*, I'd never try to
shoot further than a yard.

*Forex: on Thanksgiving I was treated to about 50 shots from a small 9mm
handgun. My target was a swinging 2 liter bottle of water at about 10-12
yards. It was still full of water when I got done. Give me a snowball,
though, and things are different ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

"Swordy" says
>
>The classic version weighs about the same as an empty coffee
>mug (15 oz).

Yes, and it's about half the weight of a Glock.  Half.

That, and unless we're right across the table, it's not as
easy to hit something as one might think.  If we're as far
apart as 15 feet, the average shooter is going to miss the
majority of their shots at that distance (hopefully, Mr. Cook
has given you some learned lessons).  You get two tries at
what traditionally is 25% hits, and I get how many?

If you miss, well, I get to keep shooting.

If you're much closer than that, and I see you start the
draw, it's a short distance to close and hold your arm down
while I knee you in the groin.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <3CADEB80.1080907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <001001c1dc2b$d13fac40$a6ecff3e@k5k9u6>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405145001.00a7b1d8@urbin.net>

At 11:22 AM 4/5/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>nellkyn wrote:
>>Please stop it and make it go away! I've just suffered a BSI surveillance
>>visit today. Traveller is where I get away from the real world.
>>Obtrav
>>Would there be a standards institute in the 3I?
>>Would ISO 9000 appeal to the Vilani sense bureaucracy?
>One sentence that engenders fear and panic in every starship owner's 
>heart: 'Bwap compliance inspector.'

That's a keeper!  Bruce, would you mind joining Doug in my RPG sig quote file?



>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"It is both foolish and wicked to teach the average man who is
not well off that some wrong or injustice has been done him,
and that he should hope for redress elsewhere than in his own
industry, honesty, and intelligence." -- Theodore Roosevelt,
"Review of Reviews", January 1897
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>
>Sorry to get you going on this stuff. I've been comparing a 
>derringer to a knife or a fist.

I hope never to be that close to someone when something bad 
happens (then again, consider my luck).

We used to do fighting with rubber knives and chalk, with 
black t-shirts.  From about three paces, I never failed to 
mark someone from the gut to the collar before they could 
clear leather.  That was someone who knew what the exercise 
entailed, and I am by no means a martial artist, or an expert 
with a knife.

Bad things happen really fast. 
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod says:

>I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

Thank you for that.  :->

Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
usenet newsgroups.

Just a thought.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204051937.DKR02226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:37:55PM -0500
References: <200204051937.DKR02226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405130711.B19291@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:37:55PM -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
> I can add 14 to a String in Smalltalk -- it's just that I'll 
> get the message
> 
> "String does not understand +"

(define x "A string")
(+ 14 x)

In guile:
  standard input:51:1: In procedure + in expression (+ 14 x):
  standard input:51:1: Wrong type argument: "A string"
  ABORT: (wrong-type-arg)

  Type "(backtrace)" to get more information.

In umb-scheme:
  Error: Bad argument type to primitive in: (+ 14 x)

In other words, the same thing as in SmallTalk.  Both Scheme and
SmallTalk have strong dynamic typing.  C, OTOH, has weak static
typing.  The C fragment:

char* string = "fellow";
string--;
string = "fool";

Is completely legal, and completely wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Bother,' said Pooh, `Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock
phasers on the Heffalump; Piglet, meet me in transporter room three.'
                                                    --Robert Billing

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:08:38PM -0500
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com> <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020405130926.C19291@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:08:38PM -0500, laning wrote:
> 
> Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
> site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
> then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
> for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
> usenet newsgroups.

I hate that--Yahoo does it.  It means that information is hidden from
all but members, and what had been a public resource is hidden behind
a wall.  Given that there are other, better ways to prevent address
harvesting, I cannot support such a move.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A lady came up to me on the street and pointed at my suede jacket.  `You
know a cow was murdered for that jacket?' she sneered. 
I replied in a psychotic tone, `I didn't know there were any witnesses.
Now I'll have to kill you too.'                        --Jake Johansen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051207400.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, laning wrote:

> Tod says:
> 
> >I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.
> 
> Thank you for that.  :->
> 
> Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
> site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
> then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
> for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
> usenet newsgroups.
> 
That'd be great, as long as my password could be changed by me to
something I wouldn't forget.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <20020405130926.C19291@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051217390.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:08:38PM -0500, laning wrote:
> > 
> > Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
> > site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
> > then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
> > for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
> > usenet newsgroups.
> 
> I hate that--Yahoo does it.  It means that information is hidden from
> all but members, and what had been a public resource is hidden behind
> a wall.  Given that there are other, better ways to prevent address
> harvesting, I cannot support such a move.

Have you ever been tracked down from a public resource?

I have.  

If they want to read our posts they can always sign up.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 11:52 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> We used to do fighting with rubber knives and chalk, with
> black t-shirts.  From about three paces, I never failed to
> mark someone from the gut to the collar before they could
> clear leather.  That was someone who knew what the exercise
> entailed, and I am by no means a martial artist, or an expert
> with a knife.

I'd just like to point out that there is a big difference between practicing
with knives in the dojo and actually using one one someone.  Knife fighting
is a brutal and intimate form of combat.  A single knife thrust or slash is
rarely incapacitating or even debilitating.  To actually stop an attacker
with a knife, you need to be prepared to use it multiple times.  There will
be blood, and possibly screaming.  You will be right in your opponents face.
An he will probably not be cooperating.

The human body is also much better defended against a knife than a firearm.
There are lots of bones to get in the way:  ribs, arms and leg bones, etc.
As an experiment, try thrusting and/or slashing an animal carcass.  Better
if it's hanging on a cord so it's free to swing and twist.  it's a lot
harder than it seems.

Also, most knives are not really up to the challenge of combat.  They are
rarely sharp enough or strong enough to be really effective.  It's hard to
slash through clothing and then deep into meat.  It's hard to thrust between
ribs and not break a point or have the knife twist out of you hand,
especially if there's a lot of blood on everything (including you).

Working in a hospital, I saw a lot of people wounded by knives walk into the
emergency room under their own power.  A few people wounded by handguns did
the same.  I never saw anyone who had been shot by a rifle in a major body
part walk in, they were wheeled in.

I like knives.  I was a professional custom knife maker for several years.
My preference was for 'fighting' knives.  But if I had to pick a weapon, a
knife would be way down my list (after guns, baseball bat, etc.)

A knife is really best as an offensive weapon, provided you are ruthless
enough to use it.  It excels in the surprise silent kill on an unsuspecting
opponents, preferably attacked from behind.  But only if you don't have
something better.

A friend, who worked with Pheonix project while in the service in the 1960s
related to me the story of his one knife encounter (after many beers).  This
person is a large, powerful and rather competent former member Special
Forces.  Attempting to kidnap a local individual for interrogation by his
CIA masters, things got out of hand.  He attempted to use a Randall number 1
(a particularly well regarded combat knife) to end the conflict.  His
opponent was all of 5'5" and of slight build.

Ken reported that he stabbed the individual at least a dozen times.  Blood
was everywhere and the target was screaming like a banshee and fighting like
a tiger.  They lost their grip on the bloody man, who promptly ran off.  He
was captured several days later.

Makes one think.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:33:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:33:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051217390.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:19:15PM -0800
References: <20020405130926.C19291@4dv.net> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051217390.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020405133255.A19481@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:19:15PM -0800, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> Have you ever been tracked down from a public resource?

Yeah--but 'twas a good thing in my case.  And, indeed, it doesn't
bother me--the same can be done with Google and a few minutes in the
white pages, generally.

The development of the Internet into a group of walled-and-gated
communities is not, IMHO, a good thing.

I _really_ hate being forced to choose between registering (and having
who-knows-what happen to my data) and not accessing what is
essentially public information.  After all, anyone can sign up and
archive the list anyway.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Umm...  Excuse me.  I think the network's down?'
`A communications disruption can only mean one thing...invasion.'
          --Lee Maguire, teaching us how to make people go away

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204052034.DKT01667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

So it's a matter of "do you enforce typing" and "when do you 
enforce it".

I like mine done, but only at the last minute.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:35:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:35:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D34A21.37700%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 12:08 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the
> site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address
> then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy
> for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than
> usenet newsgroups.

And would the users bitch.  oh yes.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:32:47PM -0800
References: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405133914.A19510@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:32:47PM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> A knife is really best as an offensive weapon, provided you are ruthless
> enough to use it.  It excels in the surprise silent kill on an unsuspecting
> opponents, preferably attacked from behind.

http://armor.com/2000/catalog/item723.html

Although the picture is not nearly as nice as in the previous edition.
It's actually a beautiful glittering foot-long weapon ideal for that
sort of work.  Not something that has any use in a knife-fight.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
           --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204052034.DKT01667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:34:14PM -0500
References: <200204052034.DKT01667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405134034.B19510@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:34:14PM -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
> So it's a matter of "do you enforce typing" and "when do you 
> enforce it".
> 
> I like mine done, but only at the last minute.

Which is what SmallTalk and Scheme both do.

Now, there are advantages to SmallTalk.  To tell te truth, I just
never cared over-much for its syntax or standard library.  It didn't
do a whole lot for me.  But everyone's different.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Cape Cod Salsa--somehow that's just not right.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:51:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:51:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <3CADFCD0.6000801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405151454.02882b30@pop.wizard.net>

Bruce Johnson:

>Many of the Flandry series, by Poul Anderson mention troopers using melee 
>arms. I specifically remember one passage about a big trooper in battle 
>dress wielding a 'collapsium-plated battle axe'.

Collapsium, eh?  Plated, you say"  Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Beware those lesser-quality battle axes sold by others.  'Collapsium 
plating' can never substitute for the reliable, never-needs-sharpening, 
100%-pure Unobtainium (tm) battle axe sold only by special and exclusive 
arrangement with the only certified maker of battle axes that His Imperial 
Majesty's Marine Corps buys from.

(Video of two people in different colored battle dress facing each 
other.  The one in green battle dress just stands there, arms folded, while 
the one in black battle dress is hacking away uselessly at his chest with a 
battle axe.  You can see pieces of the axe's plating flaking off and 
spinning in every direction each time it strikes the armored chest.)

Voiceover:  "Has this ever happened to you?"

Voiceover:  "Don't wind up like this poor guy who bought from cheap imitators!"

(Video cuts to the person in black battle dress, now laying stretched out 
and unmoving on his back, arms collapsed on the ground as if they had been 
held up defensively before collapsing.  The green battle dress is standing, 
facing camera, arms folded again, one foot on the torso of his vanquished 
enemy.  A camouflage-handled battle axe is sunk into the neck of the purple 
battle dress, all the way to the haft.)

Voiceover:  "This sad story has been repeated all too often by 
others.  Don't be embarrassed like them!  Get the only genuine, solid 100% 
Unobtainium battle axe sold in the Marches today and enjoy the pleasure and 
satisfaction of winning all your melees from now on!"

(Video of man in black battle dress.  Helmet is swung back on its hinges so 
we can see the wearer's head.  A good-looking professional model with a 
cr150 haircut and perfect teeth, smiling and basking in the congratulations 
and envious looks from his squadmates who are crowded around him.)

Squadmate 1:  "Wow, Sergeant, I've always heard how great pure Unobtainium 
battle axes are, and now I know someone who _has_ one!"

Squadmate 2:  "Sergeant Jones, you _always_ seem to have the best gear.  No 
wonder you always get the girls when we're on leave."

Squadmate 3 (glumly):  "Well I guess it isn't _me_ who will be killing the 
most enemy in close combat anymore."

(Very tall, distinguished looking man in black battle dress walks up from 
Jones' side, helmet also completely open.  He has a colonel's insignia on 
his chest.)

Colonel:  "Well, Sergeant Jones, I can see _why_ you were just recommended 
for meritorious promotion.  You're the only one here savvy enough to have 
bought a genuine, pure 100% Unobtainium battle axe."

(Colonel pulls his Unobtainium axe from his side.  Close up as he holds it 
in front of his face to admire and proudly display it.)

Colonel:  "It reminds me of the same 100% Unobtainium battle axe I got just 
before I was commissioned 25 years ago and _still_ with me today.  It has 
never let me down."

(Colonel turns to Jones again and puts his free hand on Jones' shoulder 
with a smile.)

Colonel:  "Son, it looks like it will be smooth sailing for you."

(Cut to graphic of axe, captioned with 'The ONLY exclusive pure 100% 
Unobtainium (tm) battle axe!'  Net, comm, and xboat sales information 
listed below that for the market the ad is running in.)

Voiceover:  "Isn't it about time _you_ make the right choice and get the 
only pure 100% Unobtainium battle axe in the Marches?"

(Graphic remains as a translucent overlay.  Behind it we see Jones in full, 
black battle dress, helmet sealed laying waste to one green-suited foe 
after another as they run up to him attacking wildly but he easily 
penetrates each one's armor in one try and they throw their arms up and 
collapse in death.)

(Graphic overlay remains, video cuts to closeup of someone in green battle 
dress, helmet open.  He looks terrified.  He addresses the camera as it 
slowly zooms to close up.)

Terrified Trooper:  "That guy must have an _Unobtainium_ battle axe."

Terrified Trooper (resigned and glum):  "I sure wish _I_ had one of those 
but it's too late, now."

(Camera pulls back to show Terrified Trooper charging Jones as the pile of 
bodies in front of Jones grows.)

--Laning
I almost wrote it up as Chinese forklift spam but for bonded superdense 
battle axes instead.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <20020405.125213.-122687.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:01:18 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
>
> 
> Sometimes there's a lot to be gained if none of your co-
> workers know what your hobbies or prior careers were.

Oh, I like this...

How about a character doing the same?
Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her past, and late in
a game spring it on your group.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:53:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:53:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
Message-ID: <200204052051.DKT03530@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>I never saw anyone who had been shot by a rifle in a major 
>body part walk in, they were wheeled in.
>
Which brings me around full circle.  I remember being told by 
an older NCO not to carry a fighting knife, as he had killed 
numerous men at close enough range to see their last meal on 
their teeth.  But he always used a RIFLE.  From a few feet 
away (CAR-15 on full auto, as he told it).

This man had been in Vietnam, had his lower jaw shot off, and 
walked three days without medical care to be retrieved.  He 
was put out of the service for some time, but after getting 
bone implants was allowed to reenlist in the Army. We were 
all afraid of him (1SGT Lydick).

He said he never, ever killed anyone with a knife OR a 
pistol.  Always the rifle.

Haven't killed anyone, but I've killed a lot of deer. Made 
the mistake "once" of trying to use a .44 Mag on a 180 pound 
whitetail (a bit heavy, yes) near Savannah, GA.  Two hits, 
from 35 yards away, one through the left side into the lungs 
and out the other side, one as he turned (into the diaphragm 
forward and out through the front).  I had to follow him for 
two miles. (240gr Sierra JHP, 24 grains IMR 4227, your 
mileage may differ).

Not one deer that I've shot "once" with a .308 (180 grain 
Nosler Ballistic Tip) has taken more than two steps before 
falling.  And that was up to 150 yards away (no, I don't make 
long range shots on deer).

The .308 is not a "powerhouse" round, but it is a real rifle 
round.

ObTrav: Question about penetration and damage.  There 
is "proof" now that the green tip will penetrate most body 
armor at urban combat ranges BUT, if it hits an unarmored 
person, it is less likely to overpenetrate than standard 9mm 
ball at the same distance.  How does that work?  One would 
think that penetration is penetration, and if it goes through 
a vest, then you aren't even standing there.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204052054.DKT03893@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning writes
<snip nice commercial for unobtainum battle axe>

Might need a handle made of handwavium.  That way, you can 
kill people and do your handwaves in one stroke.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204052058.DKT04431@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  writes
>Oh, I like this...
>
>How about a character doing the same?
>Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her 
>past, and late in a game spring it on your group.
>

I've mostly rolled my characters in private, and I've never 
really shown my sheet to others.

How many of you saw Ronin?  That was a nice part where DeNiro 
asks, "What color was the roof of the boathouse?".  I didn't 
really like the movie too much (seemed aimless), but it was 
Traveller-esque.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several 
places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and 
they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone 
in the place.

Fear and loathing ensues.  At one place, when my first wife 
left, there was a meeting held "about John" without my 
knowledge, to address "a potential problem".  Nothing ever 
happened, and I've never been one to make threats or act out.

When I retired "the rifle" to the local SWAT team (they 
thought it was Christmas), there was much rejoicing at work.

I went out and bought another one.  But it's not like the 
place I work for now really needs to know that.  You really 
are treated as a second-class citizen, just for owning a 
firearm.

I don't know how Tod does it, or Mark, or some of the other 
NFA holders.  People would jump out of their skins here if I 
told them I was going to buy an NFA weapon.

ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because 
people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.



________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <B8D33EA8.376DB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3cadc22c.4909163@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405155359.028b0110@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn points out:
>The problem is that neither side really like the bayonet.  We it comes right
>down to it, the attackers rarely actually thrust into their opponents. Look
>at the reports of the number of actual bayonet wounds in the Napoleonic
>wars, or even the American civil war.  The other side usually runs before it
>gets to that, or the attackers stop short.

Yeah.  If _everyone_ in those mass formations that charged each other 
actually fought when they were in contact with the enemy, casualty lists 
for battles in those eras would have been even more tragic.  And the 
battles would have been a heck of a lot shorter.

It definitely did happen in some units, some times.  But my vision of most 
of those clashes is that most of the infantrymen were busy trying to keep 
anything from stabbing them or shooting them.  More concerned with staying 
out of harm's way than inflicting harm.  Which completely matches human 
nature.  This vision is one of the few ways I can reconcile the statistics 
we have for battles in those times.  How can so many men who are fighting 
each other with nasty weapons be in such close proximity for so long and 
not have most of them mortally wounded or dead?  The fact that there are 
many instances of units actually being slaughtered in close contact only 
serves to make the more usual case stand out more starkly.

Which is a good thing, because I generally have tears pouring silently down 
my face whenever visiting ACW battlefields (I live in Northern Virginia, so 
I've been to a lot of them) or the time I went to Waterloo.  Even more 
death would just make it worse.  So much bravery, so many lives, people 
trying to just survive or people willing to kill and die for their 
beliefs,  the right and the wrong, all wasted.  Funny how so much wasted 
life and folly can make you proud to be in the same human race as them.

Since opposed planetary assaults are usually last on the list of the 
military options in the 57th century, that probably means that most major 
'battlefields' are naval battles fought in space.  What parks and museums 
should we expect from them?

--Laning
"This story shall the good man teach his son,
  And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
  From this day to the ending of the world,
  But we in it shall be remembered..."
--'Henry V' by William Shakespeare


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon points out, then Tod Glenn remarks:
> > I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
> > (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
> > legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
> > their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
> > off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
> > detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
> > of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
> > no no to begin with).
>
>Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.

And (again) what would Freud say?  :->

I doubt most societies in the Imperium will be any different.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:23:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:23:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <198.4e08185.29df6f8d@aol.com>

--part1_198.4e08185.29df6f8d_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, 
anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
  -Ken Murphy-

--part1_198.4e08185.29df6f8d_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_198.4e08185.29df6f8d_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:26:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:26:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>
References: <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net>

At 04:25 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, laning wrote:
>John Kwon points out, then Tod Glenn remarks:
>> > I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
>> > (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
>> > legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
>> > their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
>> > off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
>> > detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
>> > of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
>> > no no to begin with).
>>Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.
>And (again) what would Freud say?  :->

Probably the same thing.  Fear of weapons is a sign of sexual disorder.



>I doubt most societies in the Imperium will be any different.

-------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"The self is not something that one finds. It is
something that one creates." - Thomas Szasz
-------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <198.4e08185.29df6f8d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162512.00a6d940@urbin.net>

Instead of splitting wood, it's designed to crack open combat armor.

Sharper, denser...not to be wielded by the He-Man Muscle Workout dropouts, 
or those without strength augmenting exoskeletons...

At 04:22 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:
>  And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, 
> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
>  -Ken Murphy-

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence.  Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <20020405133914.A19510@4dv.net>
References: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405163130.03930bc0@pop.wizard.net>

Bob Uhl quoteth thusly:
>"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
>[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
>            --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

"Guns don't kill people.  Bullets kill people."  -humorous bumper sticker


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>Yeah.  If _everyone_ in those mass formations that charged 
>each other actually fought when they were in contact with 
>the enemy, casualty lists for battles in those eras would 
>have been even more tragic.

Actually, combat was far deadlier in the age of sword, on a 
percentage basis (not counting that you probably would die of 
infection if merely wounded).

Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.  
Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally 
ensued.

We've talked about it before, but the Dupuy curve shows 
weapon lethality shooting through the ceiling while 
battlefield deaths keep going down.  We're scattering, 
running, etc.  And we're not willing to engage face to face, 
human against human (what is a Predator with Hellfire, 
anyway: a one-way killing machine).

But catch a few thousand men who, after running a few hundred 
yards in armor, are now too exhausted and demoralized to 
properly defend themselves, and....

I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the 
survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of 
war.  People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or 
they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.  
Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their 
army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full 
of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in 
their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything 
except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message 
across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you 
have to do.

ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their 
opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like 
we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?

I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to 
nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough 
missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their 
ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on 
the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay 
waste to an advanced industrial society?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D358F8.3771D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:06 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several
> places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and
> they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone
> in the place.

What can I say.  Oregon.
> 
> Fear and loathing ensues.  At one place, when my first wife
> left, there was a meeting held "about John" without my
> knowledge, to address "a potential problem".  Nothing ever
> happened, and I've never been one to make threats or act out.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <200204052051.DKT03530@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405163356.03932ae0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn, after relating the combat advice of a seriously hard-core First 
Sergeant, then says:
>ObTrav: Question about penetration and damage.  There
>is "proof" now that the green tip will penetrate most body
>armor at urban combat ranges BUT, if it hits an unarmored
>person, it is less likely to overpenetrate than standard 9mm
>ball at the same distance.  How does that work?  One would
>think that penetration is penetration, and if it goes through
>a vest, then you aren't even standing there.

I don't know what green tip exactly means.  Is it more likely to deform 
upon initial penetration?  That will help it to veer, tumble, and otherwise 
do a poor job of continuing straight out the other side.  If it means the 
so-called Teflon bullet, then I've no idea what's going on with 
that.  Slice one open lengthwise and see what you can see about the details 
of its sectional density.  Maybe that will be illuminating.  Or maybe they 
have lower muzzle velocity, but just enough to penetrate standard body 
armor at less than ten yards given their fancy jacketing.

IMTU, you can usually buy all kinds of fancyshmancy ammo and make your gun 
much more effective at the job the ammo is tailored to.  Something that 
Striker and following books got partly into.  But MTU goes way past the 
number of ammo choices that would make a Tractics die hard deliriously 
happy.  Like the man said,  Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018043091.7096.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the 
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of 
> war.
<snip> 
> It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message 
> across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you 
> have to do.

Historically, it didn't work very well.  Wars are not notably more (or less)
common today than in the past (this implies that nothing works very well).
> 
> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their 
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like 
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?

Mostly because MAD is alive and well in the Traveller Universe.  It's not as
easy as with the US and Soviets pointing 10,000 nuclear weapons at one another,
but a fullscale war could easily depopulate everything within a sector of the
spinward marches, on all sides.  It's very hard to prevent a jump-capable fleet
from laying waste to a world.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405164402.03931ec0@pop.wizard.net>

>I don't know how Tod does it, or Mark, or some of the other
>NFA holders.  People would jump out of their skins here if I
>told them I was going to buy an NFA weapon.
>
>ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because
>people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.

John, quit this world and this job and move to Tod's Traveller 
Universe.  You'd love working on the high port at Regina.  :->

You'd probably want to _marry_ Kelly, lol!

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:50:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:50:28 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMENBDJAA.tml@downport.com>

That was only one campaign in Joshua. They didn't do as they were told and
they continue the fight to this day.

Most times you see the winners killing the armies and enslaving/absorbing
the strong while leaving the weak to be plundered by lesser foes. Also very
effective.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

[snip]  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Knife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <200204052051.DKT03530@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D35CA4.3772F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 12:51 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> ObTrav: Question about penetration and damage.  There
> is "proof" now that the green tip will penetrate most body
> armor at urban combat ranges BUT, if it hits an unarmored
> person, it is less likely to overpenetrate than standard 9mm
> ball at the same distance.  How does that work?  One would
> think that penetration is penetration, and if it goes through
> a vest, then you aren't even standing there.


Au Contraire.  Penetration has to do with cross-sectional density, hardness
of the projectile and velocity.  A bullet with good penetration can become
very unstable when transiting media, particularly tissue.  I suspect that
the M855 green tip his weight distribution such that at a given rate of
twist, it starts to yaw severely when it transits into tissue.  IIRC, the
M855 is longer than the old M198 and Mach's equation shows that once the
bullet starts to tumble, projectile length is a dominant factor in bullet
retardation.  In the case of simple armor penetration, the armor material is
not think enough or pliant enough for yawing to be a factor.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405164402.03931ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D35D23.37730%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:51 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

>> ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because
>> people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.
> 
> John, quit this world and this job and move to Tod's Traveller
> Universe.  You'd love working on the high port at Regina.  :->
> 
> You'd probably want to _marry_ Kelly, lol!
> 

"An armed society is a polite society"- RAH

I always found it amusing to see Jeff Cooper quoting Heinlein.

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D34A21.37700%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405165320.039342f0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod, almost presciently, points out:

>And would the users bitch.  oh yes.

Indeed.  I think it's already started.  :->

To all:  I'm glad I advanced the idea here, because we got to have the 
feedback on how unpopular it is before the idea had a chance to waste 
anyone's time further.  And because it's now _me_ you can suspect of being 
a closet totalitarian out to subvert your right to privacy instead of 
thinking our erstwhile Listmom had anything to do with it.

I'd be happy to live with that arrangement, but only because I think I've 
come to know the Listmom well enough to realize there is _no_ danger of 
Listmom doing anything even slightly like not respecting our privacy.  And 
it would only be necessary to go past the firewalling when you want to 
access the archives, which isn't often.  Basically, I'd just go there once, 
FTP all the archives, and have them around on my local hard drive for much 
more quick and convenient use forever afterwards.

But I would be most _unhappy_ with that arrangement if creating it caused a 
rift in the TML community.  Definitely not worth it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <20020405.135958.-122687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:22:21 EST MurfNMurf@aol.com writes:
>    And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, 
> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
>   -Ken Murphy-

The handles made of Penguin bone!
The heads diamond grit plated!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <20020405.135958.-122687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <B8D35F30.3775F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:59 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
>> And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin,
>> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
>> -Ken Murphy-
> 
> The handles made of Penguin bone!
> The heads diamond grit plated!

Wouldn't penguin bone be kind of small.  How about oosik?  Then you get the
pleasure of explaining just where this unique handle material comes from.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>
 <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>

Mark Urbin:
>At 04:25 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, laning wrote:
>>John Kwon points out, then Tod Glenn remarks:
>>> > I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
>>> > (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
>>> > legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
>>> > their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
>>> > off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
>>> > detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
>>> > of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
>>> > no no to begin with).
>>>Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.
>>And (again) what would Freud say?  :->
>
>Probably the same thing.  Fear of weapons is a sign of sexual disorder.

:->  LOL.

I was thinking more like "they like touching their surrogate a great 
deal".  I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival 
response.  Unreasoning and disproportionate fear, and especially 
incapacitating fear, is a different matter and Freud would probably say a 
sign of some disorder.

Anyway, the TML has seen more than enough virtual ink spilled on 
gun-control-related issues.  Let's not go there.  I only meant my Freud 
remark as very light humor.  Please excuse the distraction.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:06:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:06:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <B8D35D23.37730%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405164402.03931ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170735.03959740@pop.wizard.net>

>"An armed society is a polite society"- RAH
>
>I always found it amusing to see Jeff Cooper quoting Heinlein.
>
>Tod

Well, I wouldn't want to learn my politics from either of them.  Too 
dictatorial.  I'll stick to the first for science fiction and the second 
for shooting techniques.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:08:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:08:30 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <B8D358F8.3771D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051404360.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

> on 4/5/02 1:06 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several
> > places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and
> > they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone
> > in the place.

OK, color me clueless, but-- if you go to someone's house on a SHOOTING
trip, wouldn't you expect them to have GUNS?

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh.

> > Fear and loathing ensues.  At one place, when my first wife
> > left, there was a meeting held "about John" without my
> > knowledge, to address "a potential problem".  Nothing ever
> > happened, and I've never been one to make threats or act out.

And this was while you were still married, right?  Man!!!!!

They were concerned about my ex-husband at my workplace for a while, but
that was because they knew the breakup was not friendly. 

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>

>Actually, combat was far deadlier in the age of sword, on a
>percentage basis (not counting that you probably would die of
>infection if merely wounded).

But I do count that.  And, as you go on to point out, the biggest factor of 
all...
>Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.
>Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally
>ensued.
>
>
>ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
>opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
>we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
>I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
>nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
>missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their
>ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on
>the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay
>waste to an advanced industrial society?

Well, we're sortakinda talking about 'Victorians in space' and that sort of 
warfare is barbaric and just bloody unsporting, old boy.  Besides, if all 
the worlds end up getting nuked, where the heck are the players going to play?

In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear 
devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and 
convincing reasons for it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D361DF.37767%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:32 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> Actually, combat was far deadlier in the age of sword, on a
> percentage basis (not counting that you probably would die of
> infection if merely wounded).

I've never seen any good statistics.  Was it really, man-for-man deadlier?
I would have thought most casualties came from the pursuit stage, where
doubtless or progenitors were much more blood thirsty.  An disease was by
far the biggest killer of soldiers, at least until WWII.
> 
> Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.
> Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally
> ensued.

Yes, the pursuit.  What you've been saving your cavalry for.
> 
> We've talked about it before, but the Dupuy curve shows
> weapon lethality shooting through the ceiling while
> battlefield deaths keep going down.  We're scattering,
> running, etc.  And we're not willing to engage face to face,
> human against human (what is a Predator with Hellfire,
> anyway: a one-way killing machine).

I'm going to have to read "Understanding War" again.  It's been too long.

> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> war.  

I'm not sure that's true any more.  Call for no quarter and the enemy is apt
to adopt a DIP attitude and fight to the last man.  Care to fight a hundred
Camerons?  Hard on your won troops morale.

If you treat you captives well, there more of an inducement to surrender.
Than you really only have to polish off the leadership.

> People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.
> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

Well, I wouldn't call the OT an accurate history in the modern sense.  The
greatest empire were forged by armies that accepted the surrender of their
foes, and absorbed their culture.
> 
> It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message
> across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you
> have to do.

When the Germans marched triumphantly through Paris after the Fraco-Prussian
was, that scene was burned into the minds of every Frenchman.  Then followed
Versailles, which made WWII possible.  We win WWII and turn loose the
Marshall plan.  Anyone think we'll be going to war with Germany soon?
> 
> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
> 
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their
> ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on
> the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay
> waste to an advanced industrial society?


Nuke a few worlds and you'll have you enemy screaming "Remember Altair 7" or
whatever.  Start nuking my worlds like that, and I'll decide I can never
make peace with you, that I must fight to the last man, and burn two of your
worlds for every one on mine you destroy.  It's a bloody calculus that's
bound to backfire.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <20020405.141338.-122687.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:58:04 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> 
> I've mostly rolled my characters in private, and I've never 
> really shown my sheet to others.

Right, sheets are private.

I'm talking about a group setting, you're into your game, and out of the
blue [on que with the GM] a persons character reverts to his former
career, be it military, psycho, war flashback, librarian for that matter,
which the group has no idea of until the characters turned loose by a
code word, light, smell, whatever.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D3629C.3776C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 2:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear
> devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and
> convincing reasons for it.

MAD
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:07:07PM -0500
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net> <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020405152015.A19842@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:07:07PM -0500, laning wrote:
>
> I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.

Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
However, it is important not to stare at the enemy because he may sense
the stalker's presence through a sixth sense.
  --US Army Field Manual 21-150 Chapter 7 "Sentry Removal"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <20020405.142533.-122687.3.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 14:03:28 -0800 Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> on 4/5/02 1:59 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com 
> wrote:
> >> And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial  cousin,
> >> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? 
> What?
> >> -Ken Murphy-
> > 
> > The handles made of Penguin bone!
> > The heads diamond grit plated!
> 
> Wouldn't penguin bone be kind of small. 

*** Bonded Superdense Penguin bones ***

> How about oosik? 

Say what??? What's Oosik??

Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <20020405.142533.-122687.3.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <B8D36663.37773%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 2:25 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> 
>> How about oosik?
> 
> Say what??? What's Oosik??
> 

A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
bone from a walrus penis.  See
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html

"I am the walrus.  Koo Koo Kachew!"
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <20020405.143525.-122687.4.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:20:15 -0700 "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:
> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:07:07PM -0500, laning wrote:
> >
> > I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.
> 
> Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
> blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
> strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.
> -- 

With me, being on the giving end is like putting on a warm fuzzy jacket
on a cold day. 
Makes me feel warm all over.
Which is why I sold my rifle.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020406083804.B25929@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear
> devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong
> and convincing reasons for it.

Near-c rock devastation is so much more effective?  <grin,duck,run>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204052240.g35MeAh25949@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

  CT stats are in an old SG (~#50?); the same one with 
the "Killer RV" for CW, IIRC :>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: bayonets
Message-ID: <200204052242.g35Mg9h26355@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
...
>The problem is that neither side really like the bayonet.  We it comes right
>down to it, the attackers rarely actually thrust into their opponents. Look
>at the reports of the number of actual bayonet wounds in the Napoleonic
>wars, or even the American civil war.  The other side usually runs before it
>gets to that, or the attackers stop short.

  But would they have run if the attackers - well, about-to-be-
pursuing infantry - _didn't_ have bayonets?  I suggest not.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:44:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:44:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <B8D35F30.3775F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020405.135958.-122687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405174141.00abfe98@urbin.net>

At 02:03 PM 4/5/2002 -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 4/5/02 1:59 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> >> And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin,
> >> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
> >> -Ken Murphy-
> > The handles made of Penguin bone!
> > The heads diamond grit plated!
>Wouldn't penguin bone be kind of small.  How about oosik?  Then you get the
>pleasure of explaining just where this unique handle material comes from.

Hmm...I would go with K'kree thighbones.



-------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"The self is not something that one finds. It is
something that one creates." - Thomas Szasz
-------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:59:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:59:28 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
References: <20020405.125213.-122687.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CAE2C1B.9030204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> Oh, I like this...
> 
> How about a character doing the same?
> Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her past, and late in
> a game spring it on your group.
>

All the time. In  Eris' Akus Moby pbem all the characters started out 
knowing nothing about each other...we only know what our characters have 
told the others, in some cases that's probably just the tip of the iceberg.

All of us have some secrets, I'm sure.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <memo.290869@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200204052058.DKT04431@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

On Ronin: it's a trick question. There are 2 boathouses.

Don't ask me how I know :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] PBeM  Refs
Message-ID: <B8D36E7D.3778F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Would all the PBeM refs who are running lists on TravellerCentral.com
please add listmom@travellercentral.com to addresses that can post to your
list.

Thanks way I can send administrative messages to all the various list
subscribers.

See the section is list admin: privacy option that starts

"Addresses of members accepted for posting to this list without implicit
approval requirement."


Thanks
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAAEMDCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn says

[Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary weapon of the
infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  number of wounds caused by
bayonets was extremely small.]

That's because if I find someone at the end of my bayonet, they're not 
going to be wounded.  They won't even make it to the aid station.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204052324.g35NOjh06085@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
>Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
...
>>ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
>>opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
>>we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
...
>In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear 
>devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and 
>convincing reasons for it.

  The K'kree seem to be the only major polity that believes in
re-surfacing planets as a matter of policy. There's all sorts
of amateurs that try and compete for the title, but mostly sanity
(MAD) or cultural constraints interfere.

        Kirurform (def'n) - application of massive thermo-nuclear
and cobalt weapon bombardment to a planet inhabited by sapient
carnivores in a traditional K'kree cultural context. Wait 500
years, seed, mow, and colonize.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <B8D361DF.37767%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405173809.0288c1a0@pop.wizard.net>

Following are excerpt from original post by John Kwon and reply by Tod 
Glenn, interspersed with your humble correspondent's remarks.
> > Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.
> > Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally
> > ensued.
>
>Yes, the pursuit.  What you've been saving your cavalry for.
Well, I agree somewhat.  I think that in classical and preclassical times, 
a lot of the vanquished were killed.  But most of them not during 
pursuit.  Most of them were slaughtered as prisoners.

As for our progenitors being more bloodthirsty than us, I doubt that I 
understand your statement quite the way you meant it, Tod.  You've 
elsewhere made plain that you think people tend to be people regardless of 
costume or nation or other things.  Like century.  Perhaps you were saying 
that during the pursuit phase of a battle, our progenitors did more killing 
than we do today during the pursuit phase?  I myself think just as many of 
us today are just as bloodthirsty and genocidal as we ever were in 
yesteryear.  The major difference is that today, the people who are trying 
to stop that sort of thing have more power than they did in the past.

(The good news is that there was a signing of a truce today between the 
rebels in Angola and the government, and the next step is the rebels will 
be turning in their arms.  While I doubt the peace will be perfect, this is 
pretty historic.  They've been fighting for a quarter of a century.  I 
admire anyone who can put the desire for vengeance behind them and live in 
peace with their former enemy.  Good luck to them.)

> >
> > We've talked about it before, but the Dupuy curve shows
> > weapon lethality shooting through the ceiling while
> > battlefield deaths keep going down.  We're scattering,
> > running, etc.  And we're not willing to engage face to face,
> > human against human (what is a Predator with Hellfire,
> > anyway: a one-way killing machine).
>
>I'm going to have to read "Understanding War" again.  It's been too long.
I recommend 'Numbers, Prediction & War' by Dupuy.  He certainly has the 
statistics there, including that charming devil, graphs.  I would provide a 
link to it on Amazon, but it would be best to go to Loren Wiseman's site at 
http://www.io.com/~lkw/ and follow his link to Amazon.  That way he makes a 
little money towards the Free The Storage Bin Seven Fund.  :->


> > I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> > survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> > war.

I can't buy into that at all, John.  Sorry.  Wars seem no more omnipresent 
today than they were in classical times.  The only relationships I would 
draw are the motivation for vengeance that connects the survivors to a mass 
slaughter, and Malthusian effects of reducing population pressure by 
reducing population.  Two forces that relationships that seem in opposition 
to each other.  Even if you massacre _all_ your enemy, even the children 
below age six, you will put yourself high on the rest of the world's 
Enemies To Destroy list.  There will come the day you are on the losing 
side in a war, and genocide is not a precedent that you'd like to have around.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <B8D3629C.3776C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:18 PM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
>on 4/5/02 2:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
>
> > In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear
> > devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and
> > convincing reasons for it.
>
>MAD


But mutual destruction is not assured.  One side would have to win a 
years-long naval campaign in order to deliver its nuclear warheads against 
all the appropriate targets.  Strephon, from the comfort of his Capital 
doesn't fear in the least for his own safety or his families in the event 
of nuclear exchange with the Zhodani.  And the Vargr Extents are such a 
hotheaded place that I cannot be convinced all the nuclear warheads that 
have been in that region for centuries were never used due to its leaders' 
very enlightened view about protecting civilization.  As the Sword Worlders 
should have nuked whoever they were ticked at many times over by now.  And 
the Aslan prize honor well above their own individual lives.  Aside from 
cultural biases toward or away nuclear warfare, there have just been so 
many _individual_ sophonts with their fingers on the button in different 
times and places that it should have happened many times by now.

And in a way, the game's authors agree with that notion.  But only in 
general.  There seems to be a lack of specific worlds that have actually 
been thoroughly nuked over to go with the general history of 
destruction.  Let me go through all the relevant canonical evidence that 
come to my (sputtering and unreliable) memory to see what each one in turn 
makes me think about how MAD affected things.

The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:
The Ancients War
Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani
Presumably the N Interstellar wars
Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night
Very early in Zhodani history
Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) from 
on Darrian

At least I think it was nukes with Darrian.  Or something just as 
devastating, so the MAD concept would still apply.

I can easily accept that enough time has passed since nuclear weapons were 
used by the Ancients that we shouldn't look for reduced populations or 
uninhabitable areas due to them.  But their war is an example of none of 
the sides being deterred by MAD.

The war against the Ziru Sirka should have left marks on various planets 
that would have been mentioned elsewhere in canon.  It is an example of 
just how geographically vast wars between interstellar powers are, and how 
that makes MAD unlikely.

There don't seem to be any worlds still showing mentionable signs of 
nuclear weapons from the N Instellar Wars.  Ditto for examples from the 
Long Night.

Zhodane's problem is so long ago that it is surprising its memory still 
leaves such an indelible impression on Zhodani culture.

Darrian seems to be a good canonical instance of nuclear warfare happening 
specifically somewhere, not just in a general way to somebody.

Oh, there's that nuclear blowup instigated by the Ine Givar but that seems 
more of an isolated terrorist incident than a war.  Or at least nothing 
that you can really apply the concept of MAD to.

I find it hard to believe there are no famous specific examples of worlds 
in the Core sector being "razed" by nukes dropped by one of the Barracks 
Emperors or wannabes.  Civil wars tend to be the least civil, as the old 
saying goes.

If one goes forward with the entire post-Assassination timeline, then it 
sure didn't take any of the sides long to start wiping out anything they 
felt like.  Which makes it harder to believe that MAD was holding other 
sophonts back during all the previous centuries of various conflicts.

This all leads me to believe that MAD isn't an effective strategy against a 
geographically _very_ dispersed opponent.  And that there is a disconnect 
between the number of specific locales in canon that have suffered nuclear 
devastation and the amount of nuclear devastation we're led to believe 
actually has happened.

There are also quite a few canonical instances of balkanized worlds or 
neighboring worlds that are on the brink of total nuclear warfare in the 
current timeline.  If such tensions have careened towards the brink so 
often in current times, how could they have been so consistently avoided 
during the pasts of all the locations that canon visits and shows us.

Hope the above was coherent enough.  I wrote it in rushed bits and pieces 
while running around the house doing other stuff.  Comments and reasoned 
debate welcome, as always.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020405152015.A19842@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>
 <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405192605.02886990@pop.wizard.net>

Bob Uhl quotes me then responds:
> > I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.
>
>Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.

Not sure who you're referring to.  There are people who have unreasoning or 
disproportionate fear of either end, true.  And I think a lot of people 
have a fear of having the things around their abode, particularly if they 
have children.  There are enough statistics about accidents in the home and 
impulsive domestic shootings to make that seem reasonable attitude, even if 
you don't fully agree with or support it.  The point being that it's 
probably a healthy survivial response to avoid having guns in the house 
just like it's a healthy survival response to avoid working in coal mines, 
but YMMV.  I am honestly sympathetic to more than one side in the gun 
control debate, and think we're at the stage where reasonable people can 
agree to disagree.  (BTW, I don't any firearms but I love shooting rifles 
and shotguns.  :-)

Hey.  Wouldn't fear of a bullet-'proof' jacket be more like being afraid of 
a jacket?  You almost fooled me for a minute there.  LOL  :->

There are members of the TML who are also proud (some, even rabid  :-) 
members of the TML Rod & Gun Club.  And there are some who are not.  The 
membership lists are unlikely to ever be altered, and I never meant to get 
into a debate over whether all people who [like/hate] guns are idiotic 
sickos or not.

I think both TML Rod & Gun Clubbers and others who are opposed can all 
agree that _some_ people who own guns, and carry guns around, are moved 
primarily by psychological need to find a surrogate or maybe just plain 
anger, and not by some other need that the rest of us agree or disagree 
about the reasonableness of.  Sometimes a cigar is _not_ just a cigar, and 
sometimes a gun is not just a gun.  Other times, they are.  My Freud remark 
was merely an opportunistic bit of humor intended to give everyone a laugh 
and lighten things up for all who read it.

I've probably prattled on longer than is necessary and will shut up now, 
and post no further on the topic.  Unless it's a joke.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020405.143525.-122687.4.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405194636.028fd650@pop.wizard.net>

>With me, being on the giving end is like putting on a warm fuzzy jacket
>on a cold day.
>Makes me feel warm all over.
>Which is why I sold my rifle.
>
>Turokan

LOL!

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020406083804.B25929@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405194804.028abec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tim Little japed:

>Near-c rock devastation is so much more effective?  <grin,duck,run>

Sounds like you'd better duck and cover.  <G>

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:46:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:46:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405192605.02886990@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D3852E.377A4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 4:41 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

This has wandered off topic.  Please move this to tml-chat or tml-guntech as
appropriate.

Rule of thumb.  There should be an ObTrav.

> Bob Uhl quotes me then responds:
>>> I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.
>> 
>> Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>> blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>> strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.
> 
> Not sure who you're referring to.  There are people who have unreasoning or
> disproportionate fear of either end, true.  And I think a lot of people
> have a fear of having the things around their abode, particularly if they
> have children.  There are enough statistics about accidents in the home and
> impulsive domestic shootings to make that seem reasonable attitude, even if
> you don't fully agree with or support it.  The point being that it's
> probably a healthy survivial response to avoid having guns in the house
> just like it's a healthy survival response to avoid working in coal mines,
> but YMMV.  I am honestly sympathetic to more than one side in the gun
> control debate, and think we're at the stage where reasonable people can
> agree to disagree.  (BTW, I don't any firearms but I love shooting rifles
> and shotguns.  :-)
> 
> Hey.  Wouldn't fear of a bullet-'proof' jacket be more like being afraid of
> a jacket?  You almost fooled me for a minute there.  LOL  :->
> 
> There are members of the TML who are also proud (some, even rabid  :-)
> members of the TML Rod & Gun Club.  And there are some who are not.  The
> membership lists are unlikely to ever be altered, and I never meant to get
> into a debate over whether all people who [like/hate] guns are idiotic
> sickos or not.
> 
> I think both TML Rod & Gun Clubbers and others who are opposed can all
> agree that _some_ people who own guns, and carry guns around, are moved
> primarily by psychological need to find a surrogate or maybe just plain
> anger, and not by some other need that the rest of us agree or disagree
> about the reasonableness of.  Sometimes a cigar is _not_ just a cigar, and
> sometimes a gun is not just a gun.  Other times, they are.  My Freud remark
> was merely an opportunistic bit of humor intended to give everyone a laugh
> and lighten things up for all who read it.
> 
> I've probably prattled on longer than is necessary and will shut up now,
> and post no further on the topic.  Unless it's a joke.
> 
> --Laning
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <20020405.170459.-184723.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Laning

On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 19:46:54 -0500 laning <laning@wizard.net> writes:
> 
> >With me, being on the giving end is like putting on a warm fuzzy 
> >jacket on a cold day. Makes me feel warm all over.
> >Which is why I sold my rifle.
> >
> >Turokan
> 
> LOL!
> 
> --Laning

The US Army trained me well... 

Just don't give me a weapon, I change like Dr. Jeckle [sp] and Mr. Hyde
[sp].

However, if you want me on your team - please do :~)

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020405224405.6103A27A92@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020405164806.00a49df0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:20:15 -0700, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

>Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.

Put me down as afraid of guns, then.  Being in the presence of a real, 
functioning weapon makes me nervous.  In most circumstances, I would refuse 
to even hold one.

To some extent, this is probably because I was never acclimated to them as 
a youth, through hunting or whatever.  But I am similarly nervous around 
anything that can cause death or serious injury, even/especially by 
accident or negligence.  For example, I used to work at a gas station; part 
of my job was refilling propane cylinders from the big tank out back.  I 
hated it.  The stuff was cryo-cold, flammable, explosive, and under high 
pressure.  I was trained for it, but I still hated it.

There's also the "with great power comes great responsibility" angle.  I do 
not want or need the power to maim or kill another human being, or the 
responsibility that necessarily comes with it.  At this time and place, I 
am happier not having to handle guns.  (And yes, I'm fully aware of how 
privileged I am that I've never had to pick up a deadly weapon, let alone 
use one in anger.)

It's a lot harder to kill someone with a jacket.  Definitely not 
impossible, but jackets are not primarily designed to apply deadly 
force.  A firearm is, and I grant them all the respect they are due as a 
result.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] G:Ground Forces queston
Message-ID: <B8D3910E.30E8%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

Hi,

In the Grav vehicle design section, duct fans are listed as having a
positive energy amount, instead of negative.  Is this an error or do they
actually act as power plants?

Thanks,

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:41:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:41:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
References: <20020405194007.A9EDC27A7A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CAE5228.FED9D9B0@earthlink.net>

Thank you, Messers Brick, Scheets, Whipsnade, and all others
who offered an answer to my question.

I recently found the original 1981 character sheet for
my favorite character of all time. He went through SORAG
as part of his pre-game career and had picked up the skill
of "Holster".

While I best remember the item from The Deathworld
Trilogy novels Mr. Whipsnade referred to, I do recall
seeing it for the first time on good ol' Wild Wild West.

Personally, though, I really like the one used by the
Pyrrans in the trilogy.

I really don't see it being practical, given Harrison's
"power holster" had the strength to rip through rough-woven
cloth,  especially since the sidearm it propelled into
the wearer's hand in less than one second, fired a large
caliber HEAP round, and had no trigger guard.

Either a White Dwarf or a Space Gamer mag actually
had CT stats for them. Ah, for the days of being a
Traveller munchkin! <grin>

For those of you who may be interested in these works
by Harry Harrison, may I suggest the following site:

http://www.iol.ie/~carrollm/hh/n01-01.htm

It has some details on the various publications of the
adventures of the trilogy's hero, psionic gambler Jason
dinAlt, including a new trilogy published only for the 
Russian market!  :(

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 18:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri Apr  5 18:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
Message-ID: <001101c1dd0f$c57c7340$f619f7a5@pctframen>

Sorta on topic for this subject, in that it deals with an incident where the
communication delay was vital. As usual, when thinking about Traveller
communication, a pre-20th Century example is useful:

"[Louis Remme, a cowboy] was at Sacramento, California, on Feb. 2nd [1855]
when he received a draft ion the Adams and Company Bank of San Francisco for
twelve thousand dollars. Unfortunately, he delayed cashing the draft until
the following morning. Meanwhile, the San Francisco bank had become a
financial casualty overnight. This failure caused its branch banks,
including the one in Sacramento, to close their doors immediately...
    "But, and his thoughts were racing, there was still a chance. It was a
slim possibility, but worth a try...The San Francisco firm had a branch in
Portland, Oregon, seven hundred miles away. The northern branch would not
close until word reached there from San Francisco; and that word would have
to go by sea, the only direct line of communication with the Columbia River
region at that time. The ship...was scheduled to depart from San Francisco
that morning. Its sailing time was six days. His one long chance was to beat
the boat to Oregon and cash his draft before the Portland bank received the
order to close its doors...."

[Source: _The Rawhide Years_, Glen R Vernam]

Remme made it on time, just beating the boat. The ObTravs are interesting;
presumably, buy/sell orders to a brokerage would operate in a similar
manner, perhaps allowing the PCs to beat their own order. Situations similar
to the one Renne faced could still crop up, especially in marginal systems
that only get official mail once a week.

(Of course, the probability that a modern common-stock corporation could
operate given Traveller communications is slim, but what the hey...)

Fred "Hell for Leather" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 18:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri Apr  5 18:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <3CAE2C1B.9030204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020406023936.E756627A91@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/05/02 at 03:58 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

>> Oh, I like this...
>> 
>> How about a character doing the same?
>> Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her past, and late in
>> a game spring it on your group.
>>

>All the time. In  Eris' Akus Moby pbem all the characters started out
> knowing nothing about each other...we only know what our characters
>have  told the others, in some cases that's probably just the tip of
>the iceberg.

>All of us have some secrets, I'm sure.

That statement is true...or false. <weg>

I will say that some of the juiciest secrets were being carried by
characters that have been orphaned. Of the "cousins and partners"
we've had Martan and Sarge disappear in a misjump, Sir Jason leave to
direct a play, and April simply not disembark from the ship when it
reached Kurzu. But, Ricardo doesn't have any secrets does he? <g>

Eris


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
References: <20020405194005.BABCE27A79@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <007601c1dd18$0a3ce0c0$945d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while
> desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to
> perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.

Yep.  My WWII veteran friend has mentioned how when his company were just
about out of ammunition and surrounded, they were preparing to fix their
bayonets and die.  Fortunately for them, relief came just in the nick of
time.  They fired their last ammunition at the Japanese as they retreated.

> From: Matthew Bond
> The principal aim of a bayonet charge is to cause the flight or surrender
> of the defenders of a position.

This seems to have been the point of a bayonet charge my friend described to
me.  The charge was about thirty metres long, incidentally - more or less
how far you could see through the jungle.

> As soon as the initial terror subsided he (and now I can't recall exactly
> which) either threw down his weapon and ran for his life, or threw down
> his weapon and surrendered.

An account of an Australian bayonet charge in the official WWII histories
describe five armed Japanese soldiers just standing around squealing while a
single Australian soldier stabbed them to death.  Clearly, shock happens.

> To quote Corporal Jones in Dad's Army... "Cold Steel, Sir. They don't
> like it up 'em!"

A comment in the Australian histories suggest that the Japanese forces
didn't like facing Australian bayonet charges.  Apparently, all that
practice shouting "Banzai!" didn't actually translate into a willingness to
stand their ground against some other mad sod with a big knife on a stick.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:03:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:03:51 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <007701c1dd18$0af3fbc0$945d8690@computer>

> From: Bruce Johnson 
> One sentence that engenders fear and panic in every starship owner's
> heart: 'Bwap compliance inspector.'

Would it help if your ship's accountant was a Virushi?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] FF&S Help
In-Reply-To: <001101c1dd0f$c57c7340$f619f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAAEGNCOAA.redroach@pobox.com>

Does anyone know of a good FF&S spreadsheet for designing aircraft?

Or even better does anyone out there want to help me design a VTOL craft
using FF&S?

I have some basic specs, picture, etc...
I just HELP

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
Message-ID: <200204060325.DLH01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Or Unobtanium, maybe.  I seem to remember some science 
fiction a ways back talking about firing osmium needles at 
hypervelocities...

http://www.sciencenews.org/20020406/fob2.asp

So much for diamond coating of metals.  Maybe that axe that 
Laning's character wants to carry is coated with osmium.

ObTrav:  Giving things names like "bonded superdense" might 
be OK while I'm designing Striker vehicles, but I am always 
wondering, "superdense what?"  It's nice to know that I could 
extrapolate and say, "it's osmium, silly".
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:34:02 2002
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <3ca99b9a.4755858@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20405.185820.1a4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I want an L5 space station, then I can not only declare independence,
> but address communications to world leaders as "foolish
> Earth-beings!".
>
> And if anybody objects, well, I'm at the top of the gravity well and
> there are lots of rocks in space...

Not handy to L5. And especially not in quantities sufficient to defend
you against the folks on Earth after you send the *first* one at them.
That overgrown tin can is a lot more vulnerable than Earth.

You could hurt Earth. They could *kill* you. 

Say a pattern of nukes a thousand or so km from you. That'd overload
the solar flare shielding by quite a bit. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:37:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Trista)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:37:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
References: <200204060325.DLH01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAE6BBC.D28B1C82@the-spa.com>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> Or Unobtanium, maybe.  I seem to remember some science
> fiction a ways back talking about firing osmium needles at
> hypervelocities...

Hmmm, that sounds like the book 'Forlorn Hope'; mercenaries use
something called a 'cone bore rifle', the barrel of which is supposedly
of diamond and fires an osmium needle which is compressed as it travels
through the barrel and reaches hypervelocites. Had them in cannon size
too as I recall.

Now I have to go hunt up my copy and check. LOL Curiosity.

Siani
-- 
"Virisque Adquirit Eundo"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <200204060325.DLH01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3B0C0.377EB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 7:25 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Or Unobtanium, maybe.  I seem to remember some science
> fiction a ways back talking about firing osmium needles at
> hypervelocities...

David Drake, IIRC, in his stories


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <3CAE6BBC.D28B1C82@the-spa.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3B11B.377EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 7:30 PM, Trista at asmahan@the-spa.com wrote:

> Hmmm, that sounds like the book 'Forlorn Hope'; mercenaries use
> something called a 'cone bore rifle', the barrel of which is supposedly
> of diamond and fires an osmium needle which is compressed as it travels
> through the barrel and reaches hypervelocites. Had them in cannon size
> too as I recall.

That goes back to the old Gerlich AT guns of WWII.  I think the squeeze bore
has pretty much fallen out of favor, replaced by the discarding sabot.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 20:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 20:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] pilot specs
Message-ID: <20020405.205600.-3247.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hi all,

This is for anyone who might know.

What are the real life size minimum and maximum hight requirements for a
combat fighter pilot?
Obviously if you can't sit in the seat, or reach the pedals fully pressed
down you're out.

ObTrav:
These requirements will effect fighter cockpits for world based craft,
and possibly starship fighters and small craft.

How would this effect pilot skills in the 57th century?
Would a GM allow a short, or very large character in the pilot seat?
Would it be safe?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <005f01c1dd29$f7b338c0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "laning" <laning@wizard.net>
> The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:
> The Ancients War
> Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani
> Presumably the N Interstellar wars
> Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night
> Very early in Zhodani history
> Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) from
> on Darrian
>
> At least I think it was nukes with Darrian.  Or something just as
> devastating, so the MAD concept would still apply.
>
> Darrian seems to be a good canonical instance of nuclear warfare happening
> specifically somewhere, not just in a general way to somebody.

The cause of the Darrian Collapse wasn't nuclear weapons, it was the
Maghiz... the after effects of an innocent science project to survey the
Primary Star of Darrian, that inadvertently caused it to undergo a Nova-like
hiccup...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com> <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <2b1tauotjjqq4c8v1v1vn5isvpbofrd549@4ax.com>

On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 10:51:56 -0800, Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

>on 4/5/02 9:22 AM, KevinC at kevinc@cnetech.com wrote:
>> Tod,
>>=20
>> Will the new TML archive be accessible by web search engines and
>> bots/spiders?
>>=20
>> If yes, then you need to do something to protect the email addresses =
of
>> anyone whose posts are in the archive.
>>=20
>> Otherwise "harvesters" will grab them all, and spam the good ( still
>> active) ones.
>
>I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

Thank you for thinking of doing so.  I wonder if it might be easiest
to simply remove the actual e-mail address and leave the user's name.
=46or instance, on this reply, all the addresses which would be seen
would be "Tod Glenn" and "KevinC".  Neither would be much risk from a
harvester standpoint and yet they would easily be plainly read.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020405231806.02bc3a70@mail.earthlink.net>


So is the Kknife a special K'kree weapon? :)

Jimmy Simpson                        nimrodd@mail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405212730.024a9190@mail.verizon.net>

Hmm, my first reply got bounced, so here 'tis again.  :-)

Hi David,

Check out:

http://home.earthlink.net/~backslash/

Best regards,

Charles McKnight 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:30:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:30:06 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <000b01c1dc7a$655e8a60$f000a8c0@imogen>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020405224838.04445dd0@rollanet.org>

At 04:59 PM 4/4/02, you wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> > I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor
> > training.
>
>I used to work a a company that tried for (and got) ISO 9000/9001
>certification: it was easy-peasy!
>
>1) Have a documented procedure for everything
>2) Make sure all staff know where the latest  versions  of  those
>    documents are (ie. where on the PC server)
>
>The fact that we didn't actually follow those  procedures  (close
>scrutiny would have revealed they were unworkable anyhow)  didn't
>seem to matter.
>
>Its just a case of understanding the game.
>

Funny, the auditor who is checking the company I work for keeps wanting to 
see actual proof that we are following our procedures.


--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>

From: laning <laning@wizard.net>

     "The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:"

Sir,

     My take on your list:

     "The Ancients War"

     Perhaps.  Gramps and the Kiddies and the Grandkiddies had access to 
devices that make nukes look like waterballoons.  They still may have used 
them, no weapon is really ever obsolete.

     "Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani."

     Canon is littered with references to the Vilani "way" of war being 
brutally pragmatic.  IMHO, the Ziru Sirka would have used nukes early and 
often.  Then again, I have trouble believing the canonical description of 
the Interstellar War anyway.
     GT:RoF has the Vilani visiting Terra after the 2nd War.  These 
representatives of the ZS must have been either brain dead or traitors not 
to bring an accurate report back to Dingir from Sol.  After being shown a 
~10 billion humans on an industrialized world, the "brutally pragmatic" 
Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt.
     All the explanations about population levels, internal Vilani politics, 
blah, blah, blah, are just liberal doses of handwavium.  With the 
superioroty in maneuver drives and missile tech that RoF claims for them, 
the Ziro Sirka would have, could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it 
glowed.

     "Presumably the N Interstellar wars."

     The ZS certainly, "scorched earth" tactics during their long retreat.  
The TC maybe, after all they want to colonize and/or rule.  No need to mess 
up the planets you're taking over.

     "Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night."

     Agreed.  See the "Sack of Gasikan(?)", a world heavily nuked by the 
Vargr that recovers to found and lead a genocidal minded, anti-Vargr pocket 
empire.

     "Very early in Zhodani history."

     No.  Two Dark Ages in Zho history, one when a low tech "universal" 
empire collapses, ala Rome, China, etc. and another when space missions to 
Zhodane's moon brings back a dormant Ancient bio-weapon.  No nuke exchanges 
mentioned or intimated at all.
     This doesn't mean that the Zho's haven't used them on occasion 
elsewhere in the Consulate.

     "Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) 
from on Darrian."

     No.  The Maghurz(sp) was the result of two experiments involving Tanis, 
Darrian's primary, that horribly interacted with each other.  Pre-contact 
Darrian history was suprisingly peaceful, for humans.

     A few you forgot to mention;
     Kuzu - The Aslan's Second World War was nuclear, the Third one, which 
the arrival of "Pathfinder" prevented, was going to nuclear too.  Shame it 
didn't happen.
     Asmodeus - A balkanized Zho world in the Marches had a nuclear exchange 
sometime in the 1090's.  Guess the Thought Police were all out getting 
doughnuts.
     Unknown - IIRC, there's a balkanized world mentioned somewhere in canon 
that went nucelar.  The population there lived in domes and levels took 
quite a nose dive before the Marines could intervene.

     "This all leads me to believe that MAD isn't an effective strategy
against a geographically _very_ dispersed opponent."

     Perhaps, or maybe it's just damper technology.  I don't have Striker to 
hand, but IIRC dampers pretty much draw the fangs out of nukes.  How 
easy/hard would it be for PDFs to maintain damper coverage for an entire 
world?  Could such coverage be projected from orbit by naval vessels?  If 
so, the 3I could show up above some balkanized world with a nasty squabble 
taking place and declare a "no-nukes" zone with a couple of orbitting 
escorts.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3DF55.37819%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 10:59 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:

> "The Ancients War"
> 
> Perhaps.  Gramps and the Kiddies and the Grandkiddies had access to
> devices that make nukes look like waterballoons.  They still may have used
> them, no weapon is really ever obsolete.
> 
[snip]

Then of course we haven't considered nuclear dampers.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3B11B.377EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CAE6BBC.D28B1C82@the-spa.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406023413.0396cdf0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn says:
>That goes back to the old Gerlich AT guns of WWII.  I think the squeeze bore
>has pretty much fallen out of favor, replaced by the discarding sabot.

Whoa.  Thanks for the reminder.  I'd completely forgotten about those 
things, it's been so long.  Yeah, I was always pretty dubious about them.

The only ObTrav I can think of is that there is no ObTrav for the simple 
reason that firearms design in the 57th century has long since evolved to 
be as good as it can possibly get and every theoretical new twist has 
already been examined, and tried, and tried again.  Local conditions may 
vary from world to world, but I am talking about overall.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
In-Reply-To: <001101c1dd0f$c57c7340$f619f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406024845.0396aa80@pop.wizard.net>

Fred Ramen quotes a fascinating story about a Old Time Westerner getting 
700 miles in six days to a bank branch before the bank learned from its 
headquarters that it was kaput:

>(Of course, the probability that a modern common-stock corporation could
>operate given Traveller communications is slim, but what the hey...)

Stock exchanges on each world will tend to only trade shares of 
corporations that do their primary business in that system.  Megacorps will 
trade at a glacial pace compared to something like our own New York Stock 
Exchange.  You will make an appointment to meet with your buy/seller of 
Ling Standard Products, for instance.  And the buyer will be required to 
sign some forms to prove they've done a due diligence study of the risks, 
blah, blah.

Also, the megacorps and other star-spanning corporations will set up local 
subsidiaries for each world where they have significant operational 
presence or financial stake and the shares traded on the exchanges of that 
world will only be shares of the subsidiary, not the owning megacorp.

That's my fast answer.  Haven't pondered it beyond that.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <005f01c1dd29$f7b338c0$52200050@matt>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406025432.03968d20@pop.wizard.net>

Matt Bond sets the record straight:

>The cause of the Darrian Collapse wasn't nuclear weapons, it was the
>Maghiz... the after effects of an innocent science project to survey the
>Primary Star of Darrian, that inadvertently caused it to undergo a Nova-like
>hiccup...

Thank you, sir.  I knew it was much more exotic than nuclear warfare.  And 
I completely got wrong the angle of it being a war of any kind.  Yes, it 
seems to me that the Maghiz thing left a lot of speculation about the 
Grandfather or someone deciding not to let anyone go past TL 15.  If you 
prefer the secret conspiracy view of things, that is.  Or it could have 
been just one more example of mankind's hubris being too self destructive, 
like Ikaros having the wax melt on his wings.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 00:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406030132.03931080@pop.wizard.net>

Larsen Whipsnade very helpfully responded to and improved my list of 
nuclear warfare and MAD related canon:
<<<snip most of it>>>
>    Asmodeus - A balkanized Zho world in the Marches had a nuclear 
> exchange sometime in the 1090's.  Guess the Thought Police were all out 
> getting doughnuts.

Doughnuts, LOL!


>     Unknown - IIRC, there's a balkanized world mentioned somewhere in 
> canon that went nucelar.  The population there lived in domes and levels 
> took quite a nose dive before the Marines could intervene.
>
>     "This all leads me to believe that MAD isn't an effective strategy
>against a geographically _very_ dispersed opponent."
>
>     Perhaps, or maybe it's just damper technology.  I don't have Striker 
> to hand, but IIRC dampers pretty much draw the fangs out of nukes.  How 
> easy/hard would it be for PDFs to maintain damper coverage for an entire 
> world?  Could such coverage be projected from orbit by naval vessels?  If 
> so, the 3I could show up above some balkanized world with a nasty 
> squabble taking place and declare a "no-nukes" zone with a couple of 
> orbitting escorts.
I brought it up a little while ago with a friend who was over for face to 
face gaming.  His immediate reaction was "nuclear dampers".  He felt the 
same way I do about things being far too dispersed for MAD to make enough 
sense.  Well, actually his first reaction was "It's against the Imperial 
Code of War, nobody would ever get away with it" but then I explained my 
concern wasn't keeping order internally but grand strategy between nations 
at the level of interstellar empires.

I grabbed my trusty old (first edition, so no power points) Book 5 - High 
Guard and we looked up nuclear dampers.  First available at TL 12.  You 
have to get all the way from TL 6 or 7 to TL 12 without them, but still 
dealing nukes.  Repulsor bays come in at TL 10, and that will help a tiny 
bit.  Jump drives start at TL 9, so you have to get from 9 to 12 with the 
capability for interstellar delivery of nukes.  It would have been such a 
good answer too.  IIRC, either MT or second edition High Guard or maybe 
both did do some substantial revisions to TLs for weapons and 
screens.  Perhaps that will provide some support to the nuclear dampers 
theory.  But I don't think so.

The search continues, I guess.

--Laning



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 00:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 00:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEFOCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20406.005223.1e4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The weapon I'm trying to figure out is an equalizer for pedestrians.
> Anything that will actually stop or otherwise neutralize a moving vehicle
> that is about to violate a crosswalk will have a danger space that includes
> the pedestrian (like a LAW, M203, Panzerfaust, etc.) at typical engagement
> ranges.  Anything safe for the pedestrian will not actually stop the vehicle
> before impact -- the .44 magnum will shut down the engine, but the car will
> keep on rolling.  Many weapons will neutralize the driver, but again, the
> car will keep going.  It's a poser.

You need a personal force shield with the ability to isolate internal
and external inertial frames. Or else the ability to "lock" to bedrock
on impact.

I suspect it'd be "simpler" to do the former. But not by a lot.

Basicly, any momentum transfer to the volume within the field occurs
*uniformly*. So, since the forces are applied equal to all particles,
they don't have any apparent effect (much like it doesn't matter how
strong the gravity is *while* you are falling, just when you hit :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 01:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 01:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE9C2B.34116%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20406.005748.6n2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/1/02 10:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>> 
>> I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that difficult to
>> build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate power
>> battery.  
>
> I have yet to be convinced that such things will work, and be at all
> effective.  Particularly as the  strength of burst will be inversely
> proportional to the to the square of the distance.  Has anyone actually seen
> a demonstration where this works?  It should be rather easy to test.

The effects *depend* on non-linear effects. And the strength at a
distance depends a lot on the orientation.

Also, remember, the effect is *not* due to the strength of the field
(well, not entirely). It's due to the sudden *change* in field strength
too. 

> Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical martial
> arts 'death touch'.

I wouldn't expect one to have any great range. But if you can hide it
in a brief case, 10 meters is *plenty*.

>> I've a few comments and questions here:
>> 
>> 1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this
>> shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be
>> overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP?
>
> Gauss weapons won't need any complex and delicate circuitry if they're
> anything like railguns.  I don't expect them to be vulnerable to EMP anymore
> than a 1950s Chevy would be.

Yeah, I meant to comment on that myself.

"coilguns" will need some high speeds switchging circuitry. But
frankly, the power levels and timescales are such that EMP would be
minor compared to the fields inside the weapon every time it "cycled". 

"Railguns" don't have any circuitry more complicated than a light
switch. *NO* electronics in the weapon aside from any sighting gear.
And the magnetic fields the thing uses would make them have to be
mostly EMP prof anyway. 

EMP would affect them about as much as it'd affect a nail stuck to a
strong magnet. And for similar reasons. The *local* field would far
exceed the EMP.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 01:13:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 01:13:06 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701795.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20406.010602.9U3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn writes:
>> on 4/1/02 2:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
>> > 
>> > Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In
>> > fact, gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing
>> > the thing will short out all of its electronics, not to mention other
>> > nearby electronics. 
>> 
>> What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?
>
> Presumably, one strong, sharp pulse lasting roughly the length of time it 
> takes
> for a bullet to go the length of the barrel.  Not immediately inclined to
> figure out the total emitted energy, but I rather doubt that it's small.

It'd better be. Otherwise the gun is wasting energy emitting the noise.
The magnetic field will be constant. The electrical current flow is DC.
Though a rather sharp pulse, which may have a fair amount of ringing.

> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.

I have trouble picturing a coilgun as being *practical* in a man
portable size. Railguns are almost as bad, but at least you don't need
to switch all that power *repeatedly* and with precise timing dozens of
times per shot.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406025432.03968d20@pop.wizard.net>
References: <005f01c1dd29$f7b338c0$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020406065801.009f48d0@mindspring.com>

At 02:57 AM 4/6/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Matt Bond sets the record straight:
>
>>The cause of the Darrian Collapse wasn't nuclear weapons, it was the
>>Maghiz... the after effects of an innocent science project to survey the
>>Primary Star of Darrian, that inadvertently caused it to undergo a Nova-like
>>hiccup...
>
>Thank you, sir.  I knew it was much more exotic than nuclear warfare.  And 
>I completely got wrong the angle of it being a war of any kind.  Yes, it 
>seems to me that the Maghiz thing left a lot of speculation about the 
>Grandfather or someone deciding not to let anyone go past TL 15.  If you 
>prefer the secret conspiracy view of things, that is.  Or it could have 
>been just one more example of mankind's hubris being too self destructive, 
>like Ikaros having the wax melt on his wings.

I think the Maghiz was just another example of the Law of Unintended 
Consequences.  Better known as Murphy's Law.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204061516.DME00009@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug writes
>I think the Maghiz was just another example of the Law of 
>Unintended Consequences.  Better known as Murphy's Law.
>

BTW, I went looking around the web, and found another library 
data site, which had a bit on the Maghiz and the project that 
caused it.

http://www.seemann.ms/library/

Hopefully the owner of that site is on the TML somewhere...
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Combat Armor & Battle Dress
Message-ID: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>

--part1_19d.46939d.29e06ca1_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Hi,
   While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I discovered 
that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game (Imperial 
Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of the different 
models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
   Could someone help me out?
   Thanks :)
  -Ken Murphy-

--part1_19d.46939d.29e06ca1_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I discovered that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of the different models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Could someone help me out?
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_19d.46939d.29e06ca1_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>

From: laning <laning@wizard.net>

     "...looked up nuclear dampers.  First available at TL 12."

Sir,

     Well, that settles that theory.

     "You have to get all the way from TL 6 or 7 to TL 12 without them, but 
still dealing nukes.  Jump drives start at TL 9, so you have to get from 9 
to 12 with the capability for interstellar delivery of nukes."

     So until TL 12, MAD and geographical/astrographic dispersal are the 
trumps, usually.

     "It would have been such a good answer too.  IIRC, either MT or second 
edition High Guard or maybe both did do some substantial revisions to TLs 
for weapons and screens.  Perhaps that will provide some support to the 
nuclear dampers theory.  But I don't think so."

     The answer is a melange of MAD, dispersal, and dampers.  There are 
rarely single reasons for any given happenstance.
     I wonder, what if TL 12 is when dampers are small enough to allow them 
to be installed aboard ships?  Or the power requirements are finally 
"doable" in a hull?  Prior to TL 12, dampers could be massive, strategic 
systems that require multiple installations and oodles of generators.  At TL 
12, the technology gets miniaturized enough to be installed aboard ships, 
sort of like radar between the late 1930s and early 1940s.
     It's still a handwave, though.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 09:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20406.010602.9U3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 1:06 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.
> 
> I have trouble picturing a coilgun as being *practical* in a man
> portable size. Railguns are almost as bad, but at least you don't need
> to switch all that power *repeatedly* and with precise timing dozens of
> times per shot.

The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 09:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 09:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052324.g35NOjh06085@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <B8D46F07.37842%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 3:28 PM, Steven Hudson at shudson@lightspeed.ca wrote:

> 
> The K'kree seem to be the only major polity that believes in
> re-surfacing planets as a matter of policy. There's all sorts
> of amateurs that try and compete for the title, but mostly sanity
> (MAD) or cultural constraints interfere.
> 

I would expect that when it came to the K'kree, their opponents would adopt
the same attitude.  Something like the US policy on chemical weapons. "No
first use".  But if you use them, will give it right back and in spades.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 09:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 09:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn says:

[The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.]

Yes, and today, the power supply is much larger than can be carried.
We can get you a small battery made with an unobtanium core.

One problem that I see with a lot of sci-fi weapons is recoil. It's
a really nice idea to have a weapon that can fire a projectile at
4000 meters per second, but it's unlikely that we'll be able to
hold onto the weapon without a handwave generator.

In Traveller, I like to see weapons filling unique and obvious niches.

Gauss weapons are silent, and better at penetration than the ordinary 
slugthrower.  However, I feel that there should be a recoil penalty,
especially on full auto.  There are definitely recoil limits for 
humans (not just pain, but actually hitting something).

The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
from Book 4.  How about YTU?

In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a 
good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.

ObTrav: A Gauss weapon should be a better penetrator than a laser,
but the laser has no recoil.  I'm still trying to figure out the 
handwave that allows a plasma bolt to go more than a few centimeters
out of the barrel.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 11:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Seemann)
Date: Sat Apr  6 11:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E002330A27@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AA@mail.ahead.com>

Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:16:10 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

> BTW, I went looking around the web, and found another library 
> data site, which had a bit on the Maghiz and the project that 
> caused it.
> 
> http://www.seemann.ms/library/
> 
> Hopefully the owner of that site is on the TML somewhere...

I am, and BTW desperately trying to get time to do a major rewrite of
the site...

Did you want to ask me something?

Mark Seemann
mark@seemann.ms

"No matter how far you've come in the wrong direction - turn back!"
- Arabian proverb


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204061914.DML02410@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Mark Seemann" says
>
>I am, and BTW desperately trying to get time to do a major 
>rewrite of the site...
>
>Did you want to ask me something?
>

We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your 
site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which 
was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on 
the whole series of events?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 11:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr  6 11:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <B8D46F07.37842%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204052324.g35NOjh06085@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020406114851.009f8950@mindspring.com>

At 09:23 AM 4/6/02 -0800, you wrote:
>I would expect that when it came to the K'kree, their opponents would adopt
>the same attitude.  Something like the US policy on chemical weapons. "No
>first use".  But if you use them, will give it right back and in spades.

The actual policy is overwhelming response.  Hit is with *one* WMD, and we 
unload on you.  During the Persian Gulf war, the CIA found out that 
Saddam  was planning on using his chemical arsenal to slow down the units 
invading Kuwait. He was told, through neutral nations, that if he did that, 
every damn shack in Iraq would get a 30 kiloton kiss.

I imagine the Imperial policy towards the K'kree is similar..  "You go off 
on a single human world, and we will use you for Astroburger meat.  The Two 
Thousand Worlds will become the 2000 square feet, 'cause that is all your 
species will need.  What's worse, we'll let the Hivers in to play with you."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 12:01:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 12:01:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406145922.00cb7ee0@192.168.0.1>

At 12:41 PM 4/6/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Tod Glenn says:
[snip]
>The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
>from Book 4.  How about YTU?

I think people like Snubs because they have HEAP & HE ammo.


>In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a
>good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
>been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.

T4 has 'em.


----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  "When you see
a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not
wait until he has struck to crush him."
--- Franklin D. Roosevelt
----------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 12:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Seemann)
Date: Sat Apr  6 12:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
In-Reply-To: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E002330A28@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com>

Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:14:38 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

> We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your 
> site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which 
> was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on 
> the whole series of events?

While I can't remember the sequence of event, my library data tells me
there were indeed two projects: The Abh and Udh projects.

These library entries were taken from the Classic Traveller Alien Module
8: Darrians, but I can't remember the rest of the story. However, if you
really want me to, I can go look it up.

Mark Seemann
mark@seemann.ms

"No matter how far you've come in the wrong direction - turn back!"
- Arabian proverb


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 13:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 13:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B8D4A39D.37862%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 9:41 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@comcast.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn says:
> 
> [The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.]
> 
> Yes, and today, the power supply is much larger than can be carried.
> We can get you a small battery made with an unobtanium core.

If one follows the trend in batteries, they are becoming smaller and lighter
for the same power, and thus by extrapolation, batteries of the same size
and weight are becoming more powerful.
> 
> One problem that I see with a lot of sci-fi weapons is recoil. It's
> a really nice idea to have a weapon that can fire a projectile at
> 4000 meters per second, but it's unlikely that we'll be able to
> hold onto the weapon without a handwave generator.

But while projectile energy is a function of the mass of the projectile and
velocity squared, recoil is more a function of momentum.  A small,
lightweight projectile of high velocity has less felt recoil than than a
slower, more massive projectile of the same energy. Plus, with gauss
weapons, there is no added effect of the escaping gasses to add to recoil.

In a conventional firearm free recoils is defined as:

RE= Mg *((MbVb+MpVp)/Mg)^2 in Joules

where:  Mg is the mass of the gun
        Vg is the mass of the bullet
        Mp is the mass of the propellant
        Vp is the velocity of the propellant.  Typically
        noted as a constant (1200 m/s)

Let look at a gauss weapon versus conventional weapon.  In this case we'll
examine a 7.62x51mm rifle versus a gauss version with the same velocity and
bullet weight.

7.62x51mm M1A rifle
        Mass:               4.17 kg
        Bullet Mass:        0.01069 kg
        Bullet Velocity:    807.72 m/s
        Propellant mass:    0.00279 kg

for a free recoil energy of 34.3 J (about 25 ft-lbs)

The gauss version of this weapon generated only 17.7 J of free recoil (only
13 ft-lbs)

The 7.62x51mm has 3593 J (2650 ft-lbs) of energy at the muzzle.  Note that
this is not the energy actually delivered to the target.  This can be
derived from Mach's equation of retardation id we assume non-expanding
(ball) ammunition.  The amount of velocity lost in transiting the target
will allow us to calculate the total energy transferred.

Now lets look at Book 4's Gauss rifle:

Gauss Rifle
        Mass:               3.5 kg
        Bullet Mass:        0.004 kg
        Bullet Velocity:    1500 m/s

For a free recoil of 10.2 J (7.5 ft-lbs)
Muzzle energy is 4500 J (3,300 ft-lbs)

even though the gauss rifle is 500 g less massive than the M1A almost 1000
joules more muzzle energy and one third the free recoil energy

As a note, compare this with the free recoil of the M16 with a mass of 3.2
kg.  The 3.56 g (55 gn) bullet at 1000 m/s (3300 f/s) generates 14.9 J (11
ft-lbs) of free recoil energy with 1800 J (1330 ft-lbs) of energy at the
muzzle.


> 
> In Traveller, I like to see weapons filling unique and obvious niches.
> 
> Gauss weapons are silent, and better at penetration than the ordinary
> slugthrower.  

But gauss weapons are not silent, at least not in atmosphere.  They break
the sound barrier, and ballistic crash is a very. large component of firearm
noise.  MM booboo'd on this one.

> However, I feel that there should be a recoil penalty,
> especially on full auto.  There are definitely recoil limits for
> humans (not just pain, but actually hitting something).
> 
> The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
> from Book 4.  How about YTU?

Rarely seen except in special circumstances.  The range is just too limited.
Also, the penetration is just too goo.  The penetration of a HEAP round is
directly proportional to its diameter. A 100mm diameter projectile is just
not going to have much of a 'jet', and not much material to form the
penetrator.  It's a simple matter of physics.
> 
> In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a
> good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
> been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.
> 
> ObTrav: A Gauss weapon should be a better penetrator than a laser,
> but the laser has no recoil.  I'm still trying to figure out the
> handwave that allows a plasma bolt to go more than a few centimeters
> out of the barrel.

See my note above.  The gauss rifle generates a mere 10 J of free recoil
energy 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 13:33:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr  6 13:33:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
References: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <001801c1ddb2$e0895ba0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Seemann" <mark@seemann.ms>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 9:42 PM
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs


> Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:14:38 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> wrote:
>
> > We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your
> > site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which
> > was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on
> > the whole series of events?
>
> While I can't remember the sequence of event, my library data tells me
> there were indeed two projects: The Abh and Udh projects.
>
> These library entries were taken from the Classic Traveller Alien Module
> 8: Darrians, but I can't remember the rest of the story. However, if you
> really want me to, I can go look it up.
>
> Mark Seemann
> mark@seemann.ms

As I recall, one project was going to use two interfering beams of some type
or radiation to probe the interior of the Star, and the other was to use a
probe with some kind of ablative heat shielding.

Both projects were being conducted semi-secretly and independently. That is
to say that neither team was particularly aware of the other project.

Both projects happened to reach their final stage at the same time, and each
performed its experiment simultaneously.

Unfortunately the intersecting beams caused a reaction with the trail of by
products from the probes ablating heat shielding, the result of which was a
stellar 'burp' of devastating proportions in the Darrian system. The effects
of the pulse continued out into space, reaching the surrounding Darrian
colonies at lightspeed a few years later. Despite the precautions that had
been taken  by the colonies in the intervening period the effects were still
very serious, as much of the technical and manufacturing base had been
located on Darrian itself. Some of the larger colonies survived, but the
ability to construct starships had been lost, and only a few jump capable sh
ips had been spared devastation. after a few years of trying to maintain
contact with each other they fell into a localised long night for about 800
years, before Mire (IIRC) achieved the sustainable technology to construct
its own starships and re-establish contact.

By this time the virgin territory of the Spinward Marches was now occupied
by the Sword Worlders and Zhodani.

Subsequent revelation that the Zhodani had been watching the Darrians in
secret for centuries (due to the Zhodani fears that the Maghiz was the
result of some Darrian Super-weapon) has lead to the Darrian distrust of the
Zhodani, and their allying with the Imperium in the Frontier Wars.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 13:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr  6 13:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020406172606.9E61827AC3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16tyB5-0001Pv-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

laning <laning@wizard.net> wrote:

> > > I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> > > survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of war.
> 
> I can't buy into that at all, John.  Sorry.  Wars seem no more
> omnipresent today than they were in classical times.  The only
> relationships I would draw are the motivation for vengeance that
> connects the survivors to a mass slaughter, and Malthusian effects of
> reducing population pressure by reducing population.  Two forces that
> relationships that seem in opposition to each other.  Even if you
> massacre _all_ your enemy, even the children below age six, you will
> put yourself high on the rest of the world's Enemies To Destroy list. 
> There will come the day you are on the losing side in a war, and
> genocide is not a precedent that you'd like to have around.

I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because 
humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill 
that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate 
thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in 
Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost 
any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something 
separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before. 
 
The three examples above are only those examples I know of with 
the highest death toll, tens of thousands were also been killed in 
Indonesia in the 1960s and in the ruins of Yugoslavia.  

Combat lethality may have gone down, but death tolls in conflicts 
have certainly gone *way* up.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 14:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 14:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn explains recoil in the gauss rifle
<snip>

Yes, it's not completely silent.  There's still the ballistic 
crack - but - it would be difficult to locate the firer, 
especially in an environment where any planar surfaces 
(treelines, building faces) were along the line of flight. 
People who are not familiar with the sound will not know what 
it is at all - most inexperienced people don't associate that 
sound with gunfire (I've taken people into the pits, and 
after the cracks whip by overhead, the guest usually 
says, "What's that sound?").

At such a light projectile, even at such a high velocity, I'm 
not sure that it's that effective a penetrator, unless it's 
really long in proportion to its width - and when they say 
it's 4mm, that's not that much more narrow than 7mm - or 
5.56mm.  Change it to something like a 2mm dart with a body 
40mm long - now that's something.

But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a 
miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no 
visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kown:
>ObTrav: A Gauss weapon should be a better penetrator than a laser,
>but the laser has no recoil.  I'm still trying to figure out the
>handwave that allows a plasma bolt to go more than a few centimeters
>out of the barrel.

You forget.  It's a _high_tech_ plasma bolt.  :->

IMTU, laser weapons do minimal damage.  I just don't think they can 
transfer enough energy into their target during the very, very brief moment 
they touch their target.  Normally.  If the target is unmoving, you can do 
a lot.  I've been on the brink of drastically reducing the range of fusion 
and plasma weapons, too.  For reasons similar to your own.

I also reduce the damage on gauss weapons by a bit, because of the gauss 
weapons in equipment lists are smaller caliber than most gunpowder weapons 
in the same category.  A projectile is a projectile.  Whether it was made 
to go very fast by a gunpowder explosion or a magnetic acceleration doesn't 
make any difference, as long as it is going the same speed.

Tod Glenn has drawn my attention to the fact that there are probably 
profound differences between target ballistics with projectiles travelling 
faster than 1140 meters per second, and projectiles going slower.  I have 
been pondering whether or how to revise my house rules on gauss weapons 
accordingly.  Given the standard handwaves that the Traveller rules are 
based on, at least some personal gauss weapons could theoretically achieve 
those kinds of velocities.  But then you get into the recoil issue you 
already brought up.  As well as problems with the projectile breaking up if 
it strikes a raindrop or a leaf on its way to the intended target.

I think firearms will always have an important role in combat in the 
Traveller universe, even with the presence of laser, fusion, plasma, and 
gauss weapons.  Although gauss weapons could supplant firearms in most 
cases if they are designed to throw projectiles to the same spec as their 
gunpowder counterparts.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Combat Armor & Battle Dress
In-Reply-To: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406172440.0282cbb0@pop.wizard.net>

Ken Murphy wrote:
 >>>
>   While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I 
> discovered that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game 
> (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of the 
> different models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
>   Could someone help me out?
<<<
I have Imperial Encylcopedia but not Referee's Manual.  Maybe we could help 
each other replace our purchased-but-missing books with a photocopier?  My 
understanding is that Marc Miller sanctions that, because we did in fact 
pay to own those books.

Encyclopedia only seems to list generalized text descriptions of the two 
things.  Not that long, not of much use to somebody who already understands 
the concepts.

p 74 of Players Manual gives some armor values:
Combat Armor-11  armor value 8
Combat Armor-12  armor value 10
Combat Armor-14  armor value 18
Battle Dress-13  armor value 10
Battle Dress-14 armor value 18

IIRC, the 11,12, 13, and 14 represent the tech level that the particular 
model of armor becomes available.  Armor value of 8 roughly corresponds to 
a stone, brick, or starship interior wall.  AV 10 roughly corresponds to a 
concrete wall.  AV 18 is somewhere between a reinforced concrete wall and a 
heavy steel frame wall.  A starship bulkhead is 40 and hull is 
60.  Sandbags are 6.  I am just repeating these value equivalents, not 
necessarily agreeing with them.  :->

I have a vague memory of the reference you're talking about, it must be out 
there somewhere.  But the above is all I can find in MT.  :-<

It's possible my memory is from T4.  Their have some detailed descriptions 
of battle dress at least, at various tech levels.  Pretty decent work, 
really.  Hey, not _everything_ IG put out was regrettable!  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 2:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a
> miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no
> visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).
> 

What type of laser? What power range?  Are their any ionizing effects?
Certainly the laser makes noise when it hits the target.  Steam explosions
in tissue, the popping of superheated fat.

And ever looked at a later with LI gear?  Super obvious.  Like having a big
pointer going back to the firer.  And lasers are relatively easy to defeat,
or at least attenuate.  A few mils of highly reflective material sewn into
clothing, prismatic aerosols.  As mentioned in a previous post, lasers are
not good penetrators.  The problem is with the nature of lasers themselves.
The have to vaporize there way through materials.  But the vaporized
material itself can act as a hindrance to the laser.

Also, water (and by analogy tissue) is a great thermal sink. 55 calories to
raise 1 cc of water 1 degree centigrade, IIRC.

I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.

I would be particularly be interested in the amount of power required to
produce a lethal beam, and compare that to the energy required to drive a
gauss projectile at book 4 velocities.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: vehicle design
Message-ID: <3CAF83F0.FB931D1E@mail.cswnet.com>

I need a vehicle design for my starport/colony.

1.The vehicle is intended to be used for public transportation.

2. It is to fit into a circular tunnel, the diameter of which is
4 meters/4.376 yards. The vehicle must fit inside this.
Remember the math. Area of circle: 3.14*Radius squared

3. The tunnel runs for 10km/6.25miles, from the starport to the
main town.

4. The tunnel is sealed from the external environment. 

5. Would like to see something like the maglev's from 2300 or the 
train thingies from SPACE:1999.

6. Any design format/iteration is welcome.

7. If you give me a really good design, I'll name the tunnel after you.
:) :) :)

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406180955.0282f100@pop.wizard.net>

The inestimable though esteemed Mr. Whipsnade contributes:
>    The answer is a melange of MAD, dispersal, and dampers.  There are 
> rarely single reasons for any given happenstance.
>     I wonder, what if TL 12 is when dampers are small enough to allow 
> them to be installed aboard ships?  Or the power requirements are finally 
> "doable" in a hull?  Prior to TL 12, dampers could be massive, strategic 
> systems that require multiple installations and oodles of generators.  At 
> TL 12, the technology gets miniaturized enough to be installed aboard 
> ships, sort of like radar between the late 1930s and early 1940s.
>     It's still a handwave, though.
>
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Larsen

Though you present a reasonable approach, I only wish I were 
persuaded.  It's amusing when you think about it.  Each of us has different 
things in canon that we find objectionable.  Some are bothered by the 
evolutionary biology or the chemistry, others are bothered by plot holes, 
others again by problems with basic laws of physics or theoretical physical 
limits.  Yet we are each on the TML because of our genuine love for the 
game, and most of us either accept or cherish the main body of the 
work.  We all have different comfort levels over different things.  I am 
very comfortable with having thruster plates in as a handwave, yet bothered 
that laser weapons do "too much damage"?  LOL.  Descriptions of the 
Traveller time line are acceptable to some verbatim, regardless of any 
contradictions or loopholes.  It's just fiction, there's no point to trying 
to find deeper meaning.  I accept a lot of parts of it the same way, but am 
bothered by this particular thing and completely balk at 'the 
Rebellion'.  It is well and truly said:  YMMV.

Yeah, I was thinking about the possibility of nuclear dampers below TL 12 
just being bigger than the TL 12 ones that are in 100-ton ship's bays.  You 
might even be able to get that down to TL 9, when jump drives make their 
first appearance, who knows.  Though the very frequent references to 
threats of nuclear war or to past nuclear wars that vaguely affected lots 
of places yet seem to have specifically affected nowhere should mean that 
we'd see at least _one_ mention of dampers as strategic protection.  And we 
don't.  For any tech level.  And then we're told that the combatants in the 
Rebellion seem to be making liberal use of them and planets are getting 
hosed down.  If that wasn't feasible before, what has changed that makes it 
feasible now?  (Besides who is doing most of the writing of the books.  :-)

I'm stumped here.  I need something to say when I start my next Traveller 
game.  And did I mention one of my players has a doctorate from MIT on the 
subject of nuclear warfare?  It's _going_ to come up.  Guess I'll turn the 
tables and ask him to help come up with a rationalization before he can ask 
me for one.  It would help even more if he'd read anything besides the 
original three LBBs back in 1977.  I'll post here and let you all know what 
he contributes.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D4C656.3788B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 3:07 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> 
> Tod Glenn has drawn my attention to the fact that there are probably
> profound differences between target ballistics with projectiles travelling
> faster than 1140 meters per second, and projectiles going slower.

Actually, it's 1450 m/s.  An the differences in wounding are not
theoretical, they are proven.  I direct you to "Antipersonnel Weapons"
published by SIPRI (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute) which
has a very good section of the effects of hypervelocity (1450+ m/s)
projectiles.  There have also been a few writeups in past issues of the
"Journal of Wound Ballistics".  I'll look for the articles and get you a
cite.

> I have 
> been pondering whether or how to revise my house rules on gauss weapons
> accordingly.  Given the standard handwaves that the Traveller rules are
> based on, at least some personal gauss weapons could theoretically achieve
> those kinds of velocities.  But then you get into the recoil issue you
> already brought up.

See my earlier post. Gauss weapon have significantly less free recoil energy
than CPR guns.  Just using the example from my previous post.  If we take
two identical weapons (in the example, M1As), one CPR the other gauss, each
firing an identical bullet at identical velocities.

M1A Standard:   34 J of free recoil
M1A Gauss:      17.7 J of free recoil

The Traveller Book 4 gauss rifle fires a 4g 4mm projectile at 1500 m/s.  The
weapons masses 3.5 kg, thus we have a free recoil energy of only 10.2 J, 2/3
the recoil of the M16.  The M16 has 1800 J of muzzle energy compared with
the gauss rifle's 4500 J.

If the gauss rifle is a coil gun (as many have suggested, and the
description from book 4 seems to fit)  the projectile must be ferromagnetic.
Let's assume elemental iron to make it easy.  Iron has a density of 7.86
g/cc.  We know from 'canon' that the gauss round is 4mm in diameter and
masses 4 g.  That means a projectile that is 4cm long, a 1:10 aspect ratio.

Looking a Mach's equation, these rounds are going to decelerate quickly once
they hit flesh, and probably cause wounding that is way beyond anything
caused by a conventional firearm.

> As well as problems with the projectile breaking up if
> it strikes a raindrop or a leaf on its way to the intended target.

That's a function of bullet composition.  If we assume a monolithic
projectile of iron, I doubt we'd observe such effects.  The bullets where
this phenomenon is observers are copper jacketed lead bullets.
> 
> I think firearms will always have an important role in combat in the
> Traveller universe, even with the presence of laser, fusion, plasma, and
> gauss weapons.  Although gauss weapons could supplant firearms in most
> cases if they are designed to throw projectiles to the same spec as their
> gunpowder counterparts.
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAMENHCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn asks
[I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.]

See http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/docs/98-165.pdf
for calculations on how to do damage via vaporization (there is a note that
vaporization is probably not necessary for a kill).  This is for missiles,
but you could make some assumptions about a human (just use the heat of
vaporization for water).  The primary advantage on firing on a human seems
to be that you don't need a 1 meter wide beam.

I've seen an industrial laser penetrate a stack of layered fabric over two
meters thick in a split second.  It was being used to cut cloth to the
pattern desired.  Penetration seems to be a matter of spot size and
energy deposited.  I was told that the same laser would easily, and just
as rapidly, slice a human into two strangers with the same speed and
efficiency.

The optimum wavelength is largely a matter of what is the optimum
wavelength in the atmosphere, which might vary some by planet.  Here
on earth, the optimum wavelength seems to be 1.3 nm, which can be produced
either by the COIL (chlorine/oxygen/iodine) or DF overtone (two deuterium
flouride lasers tuned to create a single overtone).

In fact, it is now claimed by the Space Based Laser documentation, that
a satellite-based laser could be used to strike individual ground targets
as small as a man. They claim now that there would be virtually no loss
if they were to use the DF overtone laser. Keep in mind that the beam
diameter at that distance would be 1 meter, and the fluence would be
high enough to completely vaporize 3mm thickness of mild steel in a
few milliseconds.

They are making the assumption now that the enemy *will* try and make
the target reflective.  Most humans, unless armored, will make a much
more cooperative target for lasers operating in the 1.3nm region.

Yes, someone will see this beam using NVG and perhaps even thermal
sights.  But such weapons can also be used with a rotating mirror at
much lower power levels to rapidly and randomly cover an area with
high enough energy to permanently damage even passive optics like
a simple pair of binoculars, and to permanently blind any human unlucky
enough to be looking in the wrong direction.

Maybe we would all be reduced to blindly wandering about with Laning's
battle axe, looking for each other.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAF897A.E39681FF@premier.net>


"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> 
> From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
> 
>      "...looked up nuclear dampers.  First available at TL 12."
> Sir,
> 
>      Well, that settles that theory.
> 
>      "You have to get all the way from TL 6 or 7 to TL 12 without them, but
> still dealing nukes.  Jump drives start at TL 9, so you have to get from 9
> to 12 with the capability for interstellar delivery of nukes."
> 
>      So until TL 12, MAD and geographical/astrographic dispersal are the
> trumps, usually.

Given that starship laser turrets are available at TL 7 (HG2, page 25,
they add a point-defense wild card to the deck.

It would seem that the authors of HG2 anticipated some aspects of
SDI.... ;-)

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406185112.00ab8e30@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn, after writing a fairly impressive summary of lasers as weapons, 
says:
>I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
>discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
>methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.
>
>I would be particularly be interested in the amount of power required to
>produce a lethal beam, and compare that to the energy required to drive a
>gauss projectile at book 4 velocities.

I second the motion.  And please consider the laser's value as a penetrator 
of armor?  The old timey steel kind, the contemporary kevlar kind, and 
whatever you feel is useful about the unobtainium kinds posited for higher 
tech levels.

Tod, your previous analysis of felt recoil vs muzzle energy, etc. Just 
found its way onto my hard drive.

Oh, I should mention that attempts to post to tml@travellercentral.com were 
giving me error 550 messages and bouncing a short while ago.  Roughly 1830 
eastern time.  Duration of problem seemed to be less than half an hour, so 
just a burp, I guess.  Possibly the mail server daemon was really busy at 
the time, I dunno.  Probably old news to you.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:02:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:02:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
In-Reply-To: <001801c1ddb2$e0895ba0$52200050@matt>
References: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406185801.00abbec0@pop.wizard.net>

Regarding what devastated Darrian, Matt Bond enlightens us:

>As I recall, one project was going to use two interfering beams of some type
>or radiation to probe the interior of the Star, and the other was to use a
>probe with some kind of ablative heat shielding.
>
>Both projects were being conducted semi-secretly and independently. That is
>to say that neither team was particularly aware of the other project.
>
>Both projects happened to reach their final stage at the same time, and each
>performed its experiment simultaneously.

If you're a player or referee even halfway inclined to make use of 
conspiracies, then this extreme coincidence should be enough to excite your 
interest.



><<<snip>>>
>Subsequent revelation that the Zhodani had been watching the Darrians in
>secret for centuries (due to the Zhodani fears that the Maghiz was the
>result of some Darrian Super-weapon) has lead to the Darrian distrust of the
>Zhodani, and their allying with the Imperium in the Frontier Wars.

Well, whether it was a conspiracy, an accident, or a weapons experiment, 
the Darrians do seem to end up knowing how to produce a Darrian 
SuperWeapon.  I like to think of it as the gods punishing Ikaros for 
forgetting his place.  Or Grandfather keeping precocious humans from 
becoming too troublesome (to other sophs in general?  to some project of 
Grandfather's?  to Grandfather himself?).  And I delight in stirring my 
players to worry about all these possibilities without knowing which is the 
truth.  Which doesn't make me an Evil Referee.  I'm hardly fiendishly 
clever enough for that.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:12:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:12:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0378F.26380.9082ED@localhost>

On 6 Apr 2002 at 15:11, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Also, water (and by analogy tissue) is a great thermal sink. 55 calories
> to raise 1 cc of water 1 degree centigrade, IIRC.

I think that's 1 calorie. However it's 4.2J to raise 1g of water 1 
degree Celsius. Then there's the .226 J/g to turn boiling water into 
steam, and then about 2 J/g to raise a gram of steam's temperature by 1 
degree. You'd be looking at about 500 J/g to turn flesh into not very 
hot (or high pressure) steam.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:13:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:13:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0378F.6868.90823C@localhost>

On 6 Apr 2002 at 6:59, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      A few you forgot to mention;
>      Kuzu - The Aslan's Second World War was nuclear, the Third one,
>      which 
> the arrival of "Pathfinder" prevented, was going to nuclear too.  Shame
> it didn't happen.
>      Asmodeus - A balkanized Zho world in the Marches had a nuclear
>      exchange 
> sometime in the 1090's.  Guess the Thought Police were all out getting
> doughnuts.
>      Unknown - IIRC, there's a balkanized world mentioned somewhere in
>      canon 
> that went nucelar.  The population there lived in domes and levels took
> quite a nose dive before the Marines could intervene.

How about the Ilelesh Revolt? Didn't the Imperium scrub the sector 
capital clean of life as an example to others?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C656.3788B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406191311.02844050@pop.wizard.net>

Wonderful.  Tod is doing a good job of convincing me of the superiority of 
gauss weapons to gunpowder weapons...just as my character in Tod's game is 
in an already terrifying combat situation--and the bad guys mostly use 
gauss weapons while our guys use mostly gunpowder.  Ruh roh.

This is on top of the various other combat advantages the bad guys have 
already established for themselves.  And I freely admit that our side could 
have done a better job of matching them in a lot of ways.  Part of our 
failure to do so is because we were so busy roleplaying instead of being 
munchkins.  :->

--Laning aka Krowaka


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <3CAF897A.E39681FF@premier.net>
References: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406192030.02845720@pop.wizard.net>

John Groth reminds us of another card on the table:

>Given that starship laser turrets are available at TL 7 (HG2, page 25,
>they add a point-defense wild card to the deck.
>
>It would seem that the authors of HG2 anticipated some aspects of
>SDI.... ;-)

Hm.  I was just about to proclaim laser-based missile defenses as the 
salvation of sophonts everywhere over the past centuries.  Regardless of 
real life opinions on the topic, that seems satisfying enough for Traveller 
purposes.  But there's still that nagging thing about the Rebellion being 
able to get away with nuclear bombardments when nobody previously 
could.  This should be good enough for most of my players, as they aren't 
familiar with Traveller to begin with and there is no Rebellion 
IMTU.  Practical problem solved at least for now.  Intellectual problem 
still a bit lingering.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 17:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr  6 17:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020407112641.A1980@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
> discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
> methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.

The best I've seen (and calculated) is to produce a train of pulses
lasting a millisecond or so, with pulses a few tens of microseconds
apart.  The collimation requirements are pretty stringent thought; for
this application you want to be able to focus on a region just a
couple of millimetres across.  Each pulse need only have a few tens of
joules, and the pulse train as a whole needs a kJ or so to give
similar penetration to a 9mm pistol bullet.  With more energy, you can
obviously do more damage, relax the focus requirements, and/or get
better penetration.

Such a weapon would most certainly *not* be silent.  At the target the
'bang' of superheated vapour would be far louder than the
corresponding sound of a bullet impact; more like the firing of an
unsuppressed slugthrower.  The pulses themselves would also disturb
the air through which they pass, but this would be a more diffuse and
dificult to localise sound.

Wavelengths near visible light are best, since most other frequencies
are absorbed by the atmosphere more strongly.  At handgun ranges this
probably isn't a problem though.  I would suggest near-UV.  This also
diminishes the danger to the retinas of unintended targets from beam
scattering, since UV is absorbed by the cornea (I think).


> I would be particularly be interested in the amount of power required to
> produce a lethal beam, and compare that to the energy required to drive a
> gauss projectile at book 4 velocities.

Very similar.  Both look to be in the 5-10 kJ range for effective
antipersonnel use.  The laser would have slightly lower wounding
potential and worse armour penetration, but may need only energy and
has no recoil at all.  It would probably also be more adaptable to
various uses (e.g. longer-duration cutting or drilling).  The gauss
weapon would probably have better wounding potential and lower recoil,
but needs both physical ammunition and energy.  Maintenance may be
more of a problem than chemical slugthrowers in both cases, unless
technology is sufficiently advanced.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
References: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020406185801.00abbec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <002901c1dde3$af25f6a0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "laning" <laning@wizard.net>
> Well, whether it was a conspiracy, an accident, or a weapons experiment,
> the Darrians do seem to end up knowing how to produce a Darrian
> SuperWeapon.

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately if you are on the other side...) the
devastation caused by the Maghiz destroyed all records of one of the
experiments (the interfering beams), so until the players discover the
necessary evidence of the second experiment in the adventure in the back of
Alien Module 8: Darrians, the Darrian Starkiller weapon is pure bluff. They
believed it was purely due to the probe, and tough that their failure was
due to imperfect records of the probes construction. They managed to
convince their neighbours through a rigged demonstration that they still had
the technology to induce a mini-nova. (I seem to recall that they used some
recovered Tech-G sensors to locate a star that was slightly unstable anyway
to do their demo on, that lesser sensors would think was stable).

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] pilot specs
In-Reply-To: <20020405.205600.-3247.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> What are the real life size minimum and maximum hight 
> requirements for a combat fighter pilot?

In general the minimums are set so that you can see over 
the dashboard, and the maximums are set so that your knees 
don't get cut-off when you use the bang-seat. 

What those measurements are depend on what combat aircraft
your force is flying. 

Frankie







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:32:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:32:56 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> war.

I don't see it making any change, as this unwillingness to
slaughter is actually pretty normal and has been throughout
history.

Not that _everybody_ has this unwllingness, but the vast majority
of people do, including most soldiers.

> People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.

Actually, no. That only happens against psychotic invaders who
you know will kill you if you surrender.

If you are fighting "normal" invaders, the majority of the people
don't fight at all, as they don't care who is in charge, one lord
is the same as another.

_Most_ peoples stop fighting when their armies have been defeated
or have surrendered, and most armies stop fighting when they
believe they cannot win.  They may not have been defeated at that
point.

Only fanatics, or people who have nothing to lose, such as those
who are guilty of war crimes so know they will be put to death,
keep fighting.

> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

And just as any other piece of propaganda, the descriptions in
the Old Testament were somewhat overblown.
It was common to ascribe such tactics to the barbarians of the
past, and the enemies of the present. If all the peoples and
towns that supposedly had been put to the sword actually were,
the population of the world would have taken much longer.

> It's barbaric, I know.

It's also extremely wasteful, and almost guarantees that you will
fail in the short term.

The "Thousand Year Reich", an organization that was oppressive
and actively treied to eliminate their enemiew, lasted less than
a couple of decades.

The Roman "Empire", which in the main did not go round trying to
destroy peoples, but was largely tolerant and inclusive, lasted
several centuries.  It finally fell because it became oppressive
and intolerant.

> But if you want to get the message across that Our
> Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you
> have to do.

To be an effective invader you do _not_ want to get across the
idea "We won and You lost", you want to get across the idea that
"We, including you, all Won, and the bad guys who used to rule
you lost"

> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.

This is probably outweighed by the loss of the planet as an
industrial base

Not to mention that the M.A.D doctrine is even more effective in
the stellar arena.

As soon as you do this without "just cause" you have made enemies
of every other polity in the galaxy (except perhaps the K'Kree
who are already in this position).

Also it is _very_ easy to set off a few nukes on your capital
world, even if it is far behind the frontlines, and your Navy
can't prevent it without isolating the capital from all trade,
which would have even _more_ effect than the nuke, as shown by
the aftermath of Sept 11th.

> Their ships might have to chase those missiles instead of
firing on
> the attackers.

Very unlikely, a few nukes on the planet are not worth losing the
battle over, and anyway, the planet is likely to have better
anti-missile defences than the ships.

> And how many nukes does it really take to lay
> waste to an advanced industrial society?

A huge number.

More than the the arsenals of China, the USA, and the USSR put
together when at maximum strength, in fact.

Unless you have a few "big" enough to crack the crust, and if you
have that sort of capabilty, _nobody_ is dsafe, and it's even
less likely anyone will use the capability in a normal
(non-xenophobe) war.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] pilot specs
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <20020405.205600.-3247.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406224027.00cc5150@192.168.0.1>

At 03:41 PM 4/7/2002 +1200, Frank Pitt wrote:
>generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> > What are the real life size minimum and maximum hight
> > requirements for a combat fighter pilot?
>In general the minimums are set so that you can see over
>the dashboard, and the maximums are set so that your knees
>don't get cut-off when you use the bang-seat.

The Maximum mentioned is what kept my brother out of the Air Force.
He was *that close* to signing up till he was measured from hip to knee.
3/4" too long for the FB-111.

>What those measurements are depend on what combat aircraft
>your force is flying.

-----------------------------------------------------
"Freedom is man's capacity to take a hand in his own
development. It is our capacity to mold ourselves."
-- Rollo May  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
-----------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CF6F3E.3427B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20406.200715.2D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find anything.  OK,
> I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite terrorist building
> these?

Because *being* a Luddite, they aren't familar with the tech?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:44:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:44:11 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20406.204246.6R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/6/02 1:06 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.
>> 
>> I have trouble picturing a coilgun as being *practical* in a man
>> portable size. Railguns are almost as bad, but at least you don't need
>> to switch all that power *repeatedly* and with precise timing dozens of
>> times per shot.
>
> The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
> build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.

For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:46:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:46:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Combat Armor & Battle Dress
References: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <DAV17bZEHQQE9OFLkxt00005c25@hotmail.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_010A_01C1DDBC.7A6DF060
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gentlebeing Murphy asks regarding weight and volume of Combat Armor and =
Battledress in MegaTraveller.=20


Armor                            TL            Volume            Weight  =
          Cr

Combat Armor 11            11                2.9                18       =
         20k
Combat Armor 12            12                1.8                10       =
         30k
Combat Armor 14            14                0.7                6        =
          60k
Battle Dress     13            13                3.8                26   =
             200k
Battle Dress     14            14                2.7                12   =
             350k
Cmbt Env Suit                  10                 6                 2.0  =
              1,000

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was also of extremely limited value.   =
...(T)he steers were incapable of understanding what was happening and =
articulating their concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. =
Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

------=_NextPart_000_010A_01C1DDBC.7A6DF060
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Gentlebeing Murphy asks regarding weight and volume =
of Combat=20
Armor and Battledress in MegaTraveller. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Armor&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
TL&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Volume&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Weight&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Cr</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Combat Armor 11&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2.9&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
18&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;20k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Combat Armor 12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
1.8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;30k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Combat Armor&nbsp;14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;60k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Battle =
Dress&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;13&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
13&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3.8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;26&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;200k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Battle =
Dress&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2.7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;350k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Cmbt Env=20
Suit&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2.0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1,000</FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:texasredshift@hotmail.com">texasredshift@hotmail.com</A><B=
R><A=20
href=3D"mailto:billws@sysmatrix.net">billws@sysmatrix.net</A></FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The shooting of the steers was also of extremely =
limited=20
value.&nbsp;&nbsp; ...(T)he steers were incapable of understanding what =
was=20
happening and articulating their concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by =
Evan P.=20
Marshall and Edwin J.=20
Sanow</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_010A_01C1DDBC.7A6DF060--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <20406.204246.6R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c1ddf0$419a3800$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>

> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.

Or Ha-Un batteries (Batteries made from a mixture of Handwavium and
Unobtainium)...

<g>

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 21:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 21:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20406.204246.6R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D51C82.37945%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 8:42 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
>> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
>> build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.
> 
> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.

??

Why permanent magnets.  A rialgun doesn't use magnetic fields in the manner
of a coil gun.  We just have two parallel rails and the armature
(projectile).  We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
in the loop and acting on the armature.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 21:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 21:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <000b01c1ddf0$419a3800$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <B8D51CD6.37946%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 8:54 PM, Matthew Bond at mattgbond@ntlworld.com wrote:

>> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
>> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.
> 
> Or Ha-Un batteries (Batteries made from a mixture of Handwavium and
> Unobtainium)...

Assuming you are using batteries.  Perhaps a small, highly efficient
compulsator?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 21:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 21:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEPIGEAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Sound like a reprise of the old Golden Bridgers and the 
relentless pursuit practitioners.  Historically, leaders tended 
to publicly Golden Bridegers but the chronicles tend to show 
more then one slaughter of routed losers.  I would tend to think 
that term, (the day of battles), a routed side tended to get 
slaughtered afterwards you were pretty safe


OB Trav

Mercs would tend to be golden Bridgers.
The Imperium would tend to believe in relentless pursuit, u
until you acknowledge you are thumped

(1)  golden bridge = extend a golden bridge to a fleeing enemy  

jml

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> war.

I don't see it making any change, as this unwillingness to
slaughter is actually pretty normal and has been throughout
history.

Not that _everybody_ has this unwllingness, but the vast majority
of people do, including most soldiers.

> People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.

Actually, no. That only happens against psychotic invaders who
you know will kill you if you surrender.

If you are fighting "normal" invaders, the majority of the people
don't fight at all, as they don't care who is in charge, one lord
is the same as another.

_Most_ peoples stop fighting when their armies have been defeated
or have surrendered, and most armies stop fighting when they
believe they cannot win.  They may not have been defeated at that
point.

Only fanatics, or people who have nothing to lose, such as those
who are guilty of war crimes so know they will be put to death,
keep fighting.

> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

And just as any other piece of propaganda, the descriptions in
the Old Testament were somewhat overblown.
It was common to ascribe such tactics to the barbarians of the
past, and the enemies of the present. If all the peoples and
towns that supposedly had been put to the sword actually were,
the population of the world would have taken much longer.

> It's barbaric, I know.

It's also extremely wasteful, and almost guarantees that you will
fail in the short term.

The "Thousand Year Reich", an organization that was oppressive
and actively treied to eliminate their enemiew, lasted less than
a couple of decades.

The Roman "Empire", which in the main did not go round trying to
destroy peoples, but was largely tolerant and inclusive, lasted
several centuries.  It finally fell because it became oppressive
and intolerant.

> But if you want to get the message across that Our
> Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you
> have to do.

To be an effective invader you do _not_ want to get across the
idea "We won and You lost", you want to get across the idea that
"We, including you, all Won, and the bad guys who used to rule
you lost"

> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.

This is probably outweighed by the loss of the planet as an
industrial base

Not to mention that the M.A.D doctrine is even more effective in
the stellar arena.

As soon as you do this without "just cause" you have made enemies
of every other polity in the galaxy (except perhaps the K'Kree
who are already in this position).

Also it is _very_ easy to set off a few nukes on your capital
world, even if it is far behind the frontlines, and your Navy
can't prevent it without isolating the capital from all trade,
which would have even _more_ effect than the nuke, as shown by
the aftermath of Sept 11th.

> Their ships might have to chase those missiles instead of
firing on
> the attackers.

Very unlikely, a few nukes on the planet are not worth losing the
battle over, and anyway, the planet is likely to have better
anti-missile defences than the ships.

> And how many nukes does it really take to lay
> waste to an advanced industrial society?

A huge number.

More than the the arsenals of China, the USA, and the USSR put
together when at maximum strength, in fact.

Unless you have a few "big" enough to crack the crust, and if you
have that sort of capabilty, _nobody_ is dsafe, and it's even
less likely anyone will use the capability in a normal
(non-xenophobe) war.

Frankie


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 22:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 22:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 7 Apr 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <o8pvaugdbvlibj4ikplrj5seooqrgqoqv7@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - More internal changes, plus all of the pages have been updated to
   reflect our new contact address(es), at freelancetraveller.com. The old
   Yahoo! address will continue to work for a while, but you will get
   faster responses by writing to the new addresses. 

 - John T. Kwon brings us a design for the Virtus-class Solomani
   Infiltrator. Read it in The Shipyard. 

 - Joe Webb brings us another JTAS Adventure Contest winner. You can read
   Sex and the Single Vargr in Active Measures. 

 - Kate Thumann brings us the first Traveller "Choose-Your-Own-Adventure",
   Scout's Honor. You can download it from Active Measures. 

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the (working!) feedback form at
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/infocenter/feedbackform.html.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to visit our site
and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our existence
possible.



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 23:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Sat Apr  6 23:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4A39D.37862%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIEANDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

Tod,

RE= Mg *((MbVb+MpVp)/Mg)^2 in Joules

where:  Mg is the mass of the gun
        Vg is the mass of the bullet
        Mp is the mass of the propellant
        Vp is the velocity of the propellant.  Typically
        noted as a constant (1200 m/s)


What is Mb?  Vb? in this equation.

Jusitn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 23:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 23:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204070730.g377U0h29022@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
...
>> The K'kree seem to be the only major polity that believes in
>> re-surfacing planets as a matter of policy. There's all sorts
>> of amateurs that try and compete for the title, but mostly sanity
>> (MAD) or cultural constraints interfere.
>
>I would expect that when it came to the K'kree, their opponents would adopt
>the same attitude.  Something like the US policy on chemical weapons. "No
>first use".  But if you use them, will give it right back and in spades.

  Even the K'kree seem to have opted to be harshest when the suffering 
will be effectively monopolized by their vict^h^h opponents.

  ObTrav: never trust a herd animal? :>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 23:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 23:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIEANDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8D53600.37962%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 11:16 PM, Justin Bunnell at jbunnell@yahoo.com wrote:

> Tod,
> 
> RE= Mg *((MbVb+MpVp)/Mg)^2 in Joules
> 
> where:  Mg is the mass of the gun
> Vg is the mass of the bullet
> Mp is the mass of the propellant
> Vp is the velocity of the propellant.  Typically
> noted as a constant (1200 m/s)
> 
> 
> What is Mb?  Vb? in this equation.

Oops.  Mb= mass of bullet, Vb is velocity of bullet.

I should proofread more carefully.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 00:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 00:05:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Combat Armor & Battle Dress
References: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CAFFDF2.801EA808@virgin.net>

--------------85F01DDED7191BA32DD8BE91
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:

>   Hi,
>   While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I
> discovered that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game
> (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of
> the different models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
>   Could someone help me out?
>   Thanks :)
>  -Ken Murphy-

If you are in the uk, i can help easily as i have a spare (well actually
it is my only one but i don't use it).  Otherwise it will take a few
days.

Simon


--------------85F01DDED7191BA32DD8BE91
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp;
Hi,</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp; While going through
my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I discovered that I no longer
have that 3rd book from the boxed game (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which
gives the weight and volume of the different models of Combat Armor and
Battle Dress.</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp; Could someone help
me out?</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp; Thanks :)</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</font></font></blockquote>

<p><br>If you are in the uk, i can help easily as i have a spare (well
actually it is my only one but i don't use it).&nbsp; Otherwise it will
take a few days.
<p>Simon
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--------------85F01DDED7191BA32DD8BE91--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 00:26:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 00:26:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>

laning wrote:

> <snippety, snip, snip>
> IMTU, laser weapons do minimal damage.
> <snippety, snip, snip>
> I also reduce the damage on gauss weapons by a bit, because of the gauss
> weapons in equipment lists are smaller caliber than most gunpowder weapons
> in the same category.  A projectile is a projectile.  Whether it was made
> to go very fast by a gunpowder explosion or a magnetic acceleration doesn't
> make any difference, as long as it is going the same speed.
>
> --Laning

Just to confirm things here, the Gauss/Rail/coilgun weapons DOES NOT fire the
projectile at similar speeds to 'gunpowder' weapons.  The last i heard (and
this was about 5+ years ago), current (at the time) railgun technology was
managing to accelerate a small plastic pellet (about 1" across IIRC) to over
22km/s (declared) and it was punching through 6" steel plating as if it were a
shaped charge.  We are now 5+ years on so that will have improved somewhat.
Now extrapolate on a few millennia and put the new improved kit in a portable
form and you have the Gauss Gun.

The drawback are that, due to the inherent speed of the projectile, you will
produce a sonic 'boom' (albeit a small one) in all but the 'rarest'
atmospheres.  Also, I would expect the extreme pressure waves to form minute
contrails (someone correct me here if i am floundering into strange
territories) and therefore make it relatively easy to detect where the shots
were originating from (but also acting like a form of tracer to the firer as
well).

Now, using the good ok EnergyK=0.5 x M x V x V, I would approximate that a 4g
needle from a gauss gun at 20 km/s would, theoretically, gave about 0.8 MJ of
kinetic energy, enough to knock anyone off their feet and punch a big hole in
everything apart from hulls and bulkheads (gearheads can you please confirm
both calculations and also what it should/shouldn't penetrate :-) )

A good example of this would be the railgun effects in 'Eraser' (a s**t film
apart from that bit though)

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 00:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 00:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20020405224838.04445dd0@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <3CB00424.9F0823FB@virgin.net>

Richard Wilson wrote:

> At 04:59 PM 4/4/02, you wrote:
> >Mark Urbin wrote:
> > > I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> > > I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor
> > > training.
> >
> >I used to work a a company that tried for (and got) ISO 9000/9001
> >certification: it was easy-peasy!
> >
> >1) Have a documented procedure for everything
> >2) Make sure all staff know where the latest  versions  of  those
> >    documents are (ie. where on the PC server)
> >
> >The fact that we didn't actually follow those  procedures  (close
> >scrutiny would have revealed they were unworkable anyhow)  didn't
> >seem to matter.
> >
> >Its just a case of understanding the game.
> >
>
> Funny, the auditor who is checking the company I work for keeps wanting to
> see actual proof that we are following our procedures.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> Richard Wilson

As someone who has done ISO 9000 series to death (and back) it basically boils
down to:

1.    Say how you intend to meet the ISO requirements
2.    Prove that you are doing what you say in 1.

the accreditors are not concerned (neither should they be) with how you meet
the ISO requirement, only that you have a system in place to meet them and
that you use the system that you have said you will.

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 01:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 01:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 12:26 AM, Si at mr.fingle@virgin.net wrote:

> 
> Just to confirm things here, the Gauss/Rail/coilgun weapons DOES NOT fire the
> projectile at similar speeds to 'gunpowder' weapons.  The last i heard (and
> this was about 5+ years ago), current (at the time) railgun technology was
> managing to accelerate a small plastic pellet (about 1" across IIRC) to over
> 22km/s (declared) and it was punching through 6" steel plating as if it were a
> shaped charge.  We are now 5+ years on so that will have improved somewhat.
> Now extrapolate on a few millennia and put the new improved kit in a portable
> form and you have the Gauss Gun.

A railgun will fire the projectile at a velocity proportional to the current
applied.  You could build a railgun to fire a projectile at a lower velocity
of required.  The current military designs for railguns employ an aluminum
sabor to propel a standard tank gun penetrator at something like 2
km/second.  Not bad for a 15 lbs projectile.
> 
> The drawback are that, due to the inherent speed of the projectile, you will
> produce a sonic 'boom' (albeit a small one) in all but the 'rarest'
> atmospheres.  Also, I would expect the extreme pressure waves to form minute
> contrails (someone correct me here if i am floundering into strange
> territories) and therefore make it relatively easy to detect where the shots
> were originating from (but also acting like a form of tracer to the firer as
> well).

I recall the test you refer to.  The projectile actually created a contrail
of ionized gas much like a micrometeorite.
> 
> Now, using the good ok EnergyK=0.5 x M x V x V, I would approximate that a 4g
> needle from a gauss gun at 20 km/s would, theoretically, gave about 0.8 MJ of
> kinetic energy, enough to knock anyone off their feet and punch a big hole in
> everything apart from hulls and bulkheads (gearheads can you please confirm
> both calculations and also what it should/shouldn't penetrate :-) )


Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
20 km/sec.

ME is 0.8 MJ

Assume a weapon mass of 4.5 kg (slightly heavier than Book 4, about 10 lbs
or close enough).  That gives a free recoil energy of 1422 J.  A .458 win
mag elephant gun has a free recoil of 81 J, about the most anyone can
tolerate.  No one will be shooting this.

Let's reset the numbers with a target free recoil of 100 J  and see what we
can come up with.  Again assume a rifle massing 4.5 kg.  If we are still
using the 4mm, 4g projectile, we can tolerate a velocity of 4743 m/s.

That works out to be 45,000 J.  Pretty respectable. The mighty .458 win mag
only generates about 5400 J.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 04:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr  7 03:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <010301c1de1d$72819f80$a85d8690@computer>

> From: sneadj@mindspring.com
> I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because
> humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill
> that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate
> thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in
> Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost
> any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something
> separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before.

The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
million or more - far greater than the examples given above.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 05:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 04:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Time Travel
In-Reply-To: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16uAur-0007IU-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

I'm fairly certain this won't work, but if by some miracle it does we 
might get to see what the 57th century will *really* look like.

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/095/metro/Professor_s_time_tra
vel_idea_fires_up_the_imaginationP.shtml

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 05:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr  7 04:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20406.231818.6W1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Jens Rydholm wrote:
>> My main aim isn't to recreate the original Traveller sequence. If I'd
>> wanted that, I'd just use it instead of First In  ;-)
>> 
>> However, I want roughly the same spread of intelligent races as in typical
>> SF, ie the most common environment for sentinent life to evolve in is on
>> Earthlike worlds.
>> 
>> I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might look
>> under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary after a
>> while.
>> 
>> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
>> function using radically different biochemistries?
>
> Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
> reprinted in various places.

Asimov never had a column in Analog. His column was in F&SF. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 05:38:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr  7 04:38:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20406.232122.6w2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Well, odds are the lock won't work at all then.  Plus, who says you're
> going to
>> put a thumbprint lock on the _inside_ of the lock?
>
> Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
> kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
> Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Take off your suit glove (the wrist will seal, same as if you'd
punctured it). Put your thumb on the reader. 

Once you get inside treat your hand for the swelling, edema, and
rupturing on minor surface blood vessels.

Esposure of your hand to vacuum is *painful*. But the amount of damage
is rather like that for frostbite. Short exposure won't do serious
damage.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 06:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Sun Apr  7 05:13:03 2002
Subject: Traveller Non-Lethals (was Re: [TML] Niches)
References: <20020407082906.CCBE427AFE@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0378D.B52CD94E@earthlink.net>

Mark Urbin posted:
> 
> At 12:41 PM 4/6/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >Tod Glenn says:
> [snip]
> >The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
> >from Book 4.  How about YTU?
> 
> I think people like Snubs because they have HEAP & HE ammo.
> 
> >In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a
> >good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
> >been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.
> 
> T4 has 'em.

So did CT. The publication was the adventure "Divine Intervention".

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 06:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 05:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8D51C82.37945%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAEENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod says:

[We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
in the loop and acting on the armature.]

ObTrav: Can the expert spot the vehicle with the railgun? 
Look for the longer, heavy duty barrel, perhaps with an
external truss.

A railgun would probably require more rigid construction
to resist this force, which would be considerable if the weapon
was designed for very high power (like a vehicle mounted weapon).

The barrel might be much more substantial than a typical 
slugthrower barrel, which has most of its reinforcement in the
breech area.  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn says

[
Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
20 km/sec.

ME is 0.8 MJ

Assume a weapon mass of 4.5 kg (slightly heavier than Book 4, about 10 lbs
or close enough).  That gives a free recoil energy of 1422 J.  A .458 win
mag elephant gun has a free recoil of 81 J, about the most anyone can
tolerate.  No one will be shooting this.

Let's reset the numbers with a target free recoil of 100 J  and see what we
can come up with.  Again assume a rifle massing 4.5 kg.  If we are still
using the 4mm, 4g projectile, we can tolerate a velocity of 4743 m/s.

That works out to be 45,000 J.  Pretty respectable. The mighty .458 win mag
only generates about 5400 J.
] endBlock

As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.  The first example you give is 10%
of that.  The second example has a free recoil somewhere above the elephant
gun.

ObTrav:  To be controllable in full auto, I would think we would want the
free recoil down in the M-16 range (which is dubious, if you've ever
tried to hit something at 100 yards on full auto with the M-16).  I've
also noticed that as soon as recoil levels go over, say, a light rifle
in .243, people begin to notice, and when they notice, they either flinch,
or are apprehensive about firing, especially the first round.

ObTrav2:  Tod, how do we arrive at various penetration and damage values for
CT,
MT, etc.?  FFS might be easy, and maybe we could work our way backwards.
Other game systems, such as PCCS, are extremely easy to back-calculate.

Now, I'm up there with Jeff Cooper in wondering why recoil is a problem,
but then again, I've never tried a .460 Weatherby.  Might make a flincher
out of me.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0F014.30539.36165A5@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 9:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> ObTrav:  To be controllable in full auto, I would think we would want
> the free recoil down in the M-16 range (which is dubious, if you've ever
> tried to hit something at 100 yards on full auto with the M-16).  I've
> also noticed that as soon as recoil levels go over, say, a light rifle
> in .243, people begin to notice, and when they notice, they either
> flinch, or are apprehensive about firing, especially the first round.

They do? Even my sisters didn't consider the SMLE to be excessive once 
they were adults. It was a bit heavy when we were 10 or 12, though. 
I've always thought that recoil isn't significant until you're dealing 
with light, light .270 Winchesters, light .30-06's and up.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <200204071328.DNX00358@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
<snip about learning to shoot when you're young>

Yes, I'm with you that recoil "should not" be a problem, 
especially if you learn to shoot when you're young.

But a lot of people in the US Army have never fired a weapon 
prior to joining up, and many of them are flinchers with an M-
16.  Scary.

I don't really have a problem in recoil, unless, as you say, 
the rifle is too light.  The heavier calibers, such as 
the .375 H&H, tend (to me at least) to feel like a giant 
shove, and the smaller high velocity calibers (the 7mm 
Remington Magnum being one) tend to have a sharper recoil 
spike.

ObTrav:  I really believe in the -5 DM for people who have no 
gun skill.  But -- it only takes a few afternoons of proper 
instuction to get rid of this.  I would assume that 
adventurers have taken the time to teach their fellow 
adventurers (someone with Instruction would be best).
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204071328.DNX00358@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0F5B7.22180.3776D4B@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 9:28, John T. Kwon wrote:

> But a lot of people in the US Army have never fired a weapon 
> prior to joining up, and many of them are flinchers with an M-
> 16.  Scary.

I didn't see that with the guys, but many of the women who joined up 
having never handled a real rifle had problems. Not so much flinching 
as poor and unsteady grip. I don't think some of them ever held the 
weapon steady enough for it to be called a flinch as such. To my great 
surprise everyone in my intake ultimately passed.

> ObTrav:  I really believe in the -5 DM for people who have no 
> gun skill.  But -- it only takes a few afternoons of proper 
> instuction to get rid of this.  I would assume that 
> adventurers have taken the time to teach their fellow 
> adventurers (someone with Instruction would be best).

I'd go along with that.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <8bj0busac4ql4qivsl46eujfq619pq2mb4@4ax.com>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 00:26:03 -0800, "Mark Seemann" <mark@seemann.ms> wrote:

>Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:14:38 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>wrote:

>> We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your 
>> site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which 
>> was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on 
>> the whole series of events?

>While I can't remember the sequence of event, my library data tells me
>there were indeed two projects: The Abh and Udh projects.

>These library entries were taken from the Classic Traveller Alien Module
>8: Darrians, but I can't remember the rest of the story. However, if you
>really want me to, I can go look it up.

The Abh Project involved sending a probe deep into the star; it was kept
cool enough to survive by venting tungsten.

The Udh project involved mapping the interior of the star using crossed
beams of (microwaves?).

The flare happened when the intersecting beams went through a region where
the Abh probe had vented tungsten; the resulting reaction propagated along
the 'tungsten trail' until it reached the star's surface, where it went
nasty.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <8bj0busac4ql4qivsl46eujfq619pq2mb4@4ax.com>
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407080316.009f24b0@mindspring.com>

At 09:48 AM 4/7/02 -0400, you wrote:
>The Udh project involved mapping the interior of the star using crossed
>beams of (microwaves?).

Mesons.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 09:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Sun Apr  7 08:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com> <010301c1de1d$72819f80$a85d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CB06657.8060405@gmx.net>

Alan Bradley wrote:

>>From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>>I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because
>>humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill
>>that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate
>>thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in
>>Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost
>>any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something
>>separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before.
>>
>
>The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
>Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
>million or more - far greater than the examples given above.
>
What about the ratio of 'civilian' deaths to 'military' deaths? Who gets 
the award for most civilian casulties compared to military casulties, 
not overall numbers?

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 10:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 09:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407111020.027e6d50@pop.wizard.net>

Si quotes me then says:
>laning wrote:
>
> > <snippety, snip, snip>
> > IMTU, laser weapons do minimal damage.
> > <snippety, snip, snip>
> > I also reduce the damage on gauss weapons by a bit, because of the gauss
> > weapons in equipment lists are smaller caliber than most gunpowder weapons
> > in the same category.  A projectile is a projectile.  Whether it was made
> > to go very fast by a gunpowder explosion or a magnetic acceleration doesn't
> > make any difference, as long as it is going the same speed.
> >
> > --Laning
>
>Just to confirm things here, the Gauss/Rail/coilgun weapons DOES NOT fire the
>projectile at similar speeds to 'gunpowder' weapons.  The last i heard (and
>this was about 5+ years ago), current (at the time) railgun technology was
>managing to accelerate a small plastic pellet (about 1" across IIRC) to over
>22km/s (declared) and it was punching through 6" steel plating as if it were a
>shaped charge.

Let's see if I can express myself better this time.  I am not trying to say 
that gauss weapons are only capable of matching gunpowder weapons 
performance.  I was trying to say that if you build a gauss weapon and a 
gunpowder weapon that each propel an identical projectile to an identical 
speed and spin, then the projectiles will both behave identically as they 
go down range.

There have been posts (primarily from Tod Glenn) since my post quoted above 
that let's say strongly suggest it would be unlikely that anyone would 
bother to build gauss weapons that way.  Instead, makers of gauss weapons 
would send a lighter, skinnier, longer projectile down range and at hugely 
greater velocities than anyone would bother to try to make a gunpowder 
weapon do even if they could make it do so.  I was trying originally to say 
that if gauss weapon makers are underperforming in a particular niche of 
gun type, all they have to do is come up with a gauss weapon that throws 
essentially the same slug at essentially the same speed and spin as the 
gunpowder weapons they are competing with.

Assuming that weapon/ammo prices of both are comparable, which they 
probably are not but this is so far out in the realm of science fiction 
that we really can't confidently predict what the prices would be.  So the 
prices are whatever you want to make them.

My reason for making the canonical gauss rifle do somewhat less damage than 
say a battle rifle firing standard 7.62 NATO is that I am not entirely 
convinced that making a lighter skinnier projectile go hugely faster and 
making it a lot longer is necessarily going to produce the wounding results 
predicted by the experts who are designing and testing these things.  I 
think a large dollop of conservatism is a healthy thing in such 
matters.  Let's see production models in real combat or hunting and used by 
regular people, and in uncontrolled conditions.

Please note that I am not _rejecting_ claims from gauss weapon 
proponents.  I am being slow to accept them.  I should also point out what 
I posted earlier:  I am reconsidering my house rule on gauss weapon damage, 
mostly because of things Tod Glenn has said.  I made those house rules many 
years ago and haven't been prompted to change them since.  But maybe I 
will, now.  They're just a science fiction item in a science fiction game, 
and I don't feel it's criminally stupid of me to make gauss weapons IMTU 
behave differently than gauss weapons in someone else's TU.  My players 
have been happy with my rules for twenty years, and generally the ones with 
the most knowledge of military firearms have been the happiest.  That tells 
me that my rules aren't just completely ludicrous.  If my version of gauss 
weapons bothers you, then maybe you will find some relief to know that I 
wholeheartedly agree about those magic snub pistols not being able to 
penetrate armor as well as they canonically do.  IMTU, they don't.  You can 
have a HEAP round in your snub pistol, and it may improve it's penetration 
in many circumstances.  But it will still penetrate more poorly than a HEAP 
round from a standard autopistol.  My usual snub pistol description is 
roughly the .25 auto "lady's gun".

If you're curious about what I would change my house rules to say on gauss 
weapons, here's what I am thinking about maybe doing.  Or I may decide not 
to since it's been fun to play with the rules I'm used to and it's just a 
game.  I'm thinking about crunching the numbers with the formulae helpfully 
provided by Tod Glenn using canonical gauss weapon designs and probably a 
couple or three other designs of my own.  Translate the results back into 
Traveller combat stats.  Work through each of the ammo types I believe 
would be useful and decide what differences to implement for a projectile 
that is much longer, proportionally than comparable gunpowder bullets.  I'm 
guessing that some ammo types will be more expensive and others 
cheaper.  And HEAP may be less effective because higher velocities and 
probably faster twists and smaller diameters can be counterproductive for 
that type of ammo, but perhaps the longer projectile will help.  I am also 
thinking about making the gauss weapon itself a lot more expensive.  Or 
not.  I can think of reasonable arguments both ways.  And making gauss 
weapons more fragile than gunpowder weapons.  Or again, perhaps not.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 10:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Apr  7 09:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>

From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>

     "The Abh Project involved sending a probe deep into the star; it was 
kept cool enough to survive by venting tungsten."

     "The Udh project involved mapping the interior of the star using 
crossed beams of (microwaves?)."


Mr. Zeitlin,

     Intersecting meson beams being used as some sort of active sensor 
system.  The beams also need to intersect at a "shallow", or obtuse, angle 
with each other.  The beams in the case of Tanis system were projected from 
two widely seperated locations the system's planetoid belt.
     This adds some complexity to any deploymeny of the Star Trigger.  The 
obtuse angle of intersection required for the meson beams means that two 
projectors at near opposite "sides" of a star must be used.
Two ships would then be a minimum; one to release the probe and project a 
beam, the other to project the second beam.  Naturally, the vessels would 
have to be in communication with each other to coordinate the meson beam 
aiming point.  How quickly the tungsten cooled probe, which is only used to 
"seed" the star with that material, can be inserted into the star is 
unknown, as is how much tungsten needs to be vented.
     IIRC, the effects aren't seen for many hours and, presumably, the meson 
beams need to operated for that entire length of time.
     All of this makes the Star Trigger a rather finicky device.  Actual 
deployment of the weapon would require a large, sustained effort on the 
Confederation's part and the use of many vessels.  For example, the vessels 
projecting the two meson beams would have to do so from beyond the star's 
jump limit, otherwise the mission would be a suicidal one.  That suggests 
that the vessels would need to be very large and very specialized to carry 
and operate the (spinal mounted?) meson beam equipment.  Whether the 
projection equipment could be switched between a weapons role and a Star 
Trigger role is unknown.  The Star Trigger vessels may have to be convoyed 
and protected by significant numbers of warships during any deployment.
     This may be part of the reason why the Sword Worlds haven't been on the 
recieving end of one yet.  The devastation that such a strike would also 
inflict on both Imperial and Confederation systems may also be part of the 
answer.
     <<< SPOILER ALERT >>>














     The current Darrian Star Trigger does not work.  The adventure in CT's 
AM 8, the Darrians, has the PCs being hired to perform a multi-world search 
for archival information regarding the two scientific projects that 
triggered the original Maghiz.  If, IYTU, this mission fails or the 
reason(s) for it is/are not suspected, the Star Trigger is little more than 
an extremely effective bogeyman.
     As a strategic deterrent, the Star Trigger works because BOTH parties, 
the Darrians and their enemies, believe it does.  Zho agents probing Star 
Trigger personnel will learn that those personnel believe that the Trigger 
works and thus "confirm" it's existence.
     One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star 
Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was 
faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon says:
>ObTrav2:  Tod, how do we arrive at various penetration and damage values for
>CT,
>MT, etc.?  FFS might be easy, and maybe we could work our way backwards.
>Other game systems, such as PCCS, are extremely easy to back-calculate.

I was going to actually do some work on my own to find the requisite 
formulae, but that is guaranteed to take a lot longer, I'm sure.  It 
wouldn't be surprising if Tod can recite them from memory.  :->

>Now, I'm up there with Jeff Cooper in wondering why recoil is a problem,
>but then again, I've never tried a .460 Weatherby.  Might make a flincher
>out of me.

Recoil is a problem.  As my right eyebrow can testify.  Every time I'd go 
to the rifle range, the flange on the carrying handle of the M-16A1 would 
kick into my eyebrow.  Never took more than a dozen rounds for the eyebrow 
to be bleeding.  But it didn't stop me from shooting about 238 to 242 out 
of 250 on a consistent basis.  Not competition material, but just shy of 
it.  I got to play with the M-16A2 once and got to qualify with it one time 
before I was discharged.  The butt stock is three-eighths of an inch 
longer, and that helped with eye relief a little.  I did still bleed, but 
it took probably 30 rounds to get me bleeding, and the bruising and 
bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but 
at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier 
to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always 
wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.

A lot of weapons are awkward in the first few rounds of full auto, but can 
be brought back onto target if you continue firing a long or very long 
burst.  Every BAR gunner I've ever talked to said it's very controllable 
and accurate with that technique, for instance.  And a couple of people 
have told me they could hip fire the 5.56 gatling gun accurately that way 
(see the movie 'Predator' for a very fictional example).  The phrase I keep 
hearing from people who've relied on this technique is "you just ride it".

There's a difference between recoil and felt recoil.  One of the main 
things that can be done to reduce felt recoil is change the design of the 
rifle stock from having curves intended to fit your body better to being a 
straight "in line" stock, like the M-16 and most assault rifles and battle 
rifles.  It distributes the forces from the recoil better.

In other words, there are a lot of things that can be done to control or 
manage recoil.  And to some extent, troops can be trained or can train 
themselves to suppress or forget the flinch response.  (Myself as an 
example, above.)  "Flinching is for fairies," is probably how my old friend 
would sum that up.  But I wouldn't expect something with _felt_ recoil 
comparable to a .458 Winchester Magnum to be something you could put on 
general issue to troops, it's just too much for most of them, especially 
when you think about them firing it often hundreds of times per day instead 
of just a couple of times like a big game hunter.  Tod's high performance 
gauss weapon in his previous example was chosen for being at the upper 
limit of what is practical.  For humans.  One might suppose Aslan could 
handle more.  And other races with more radically different designs might 
be more capable of handling much greater.  Just as I expect Vargr can't 
handle as much as humans and many other races even less than that.  Droyne, 
anybody?

By the way, they call it a carrying handle but don't _ever_ carry it that 
way unless you want everyone in the area who outranks you jumping up and 
down and going crazy on you.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <200204071732.DOF00615@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
<snip about weapons, and then a mention of the snub pistol>

I thought that the snub pistol was, like the accelerator 
rifle, something like the Gyrojet of old.

I've been thinking that like Tod says, the diameter of the 
round is too small to have any actual HEAP (HEAT) jet 
effect.  A long time ago, the snub pistol IMTO became an 
over/under pistol firing a rocket round.  The diameter is 
25mm (very impressive if you're looking down the wrong end), 
and the round is essentially a small grenade, not unlike the 
OICW round.  Designed to minimize fragments, except very 
small shaped charge, rather like an HEDP round without the 
extra fragments.  Still, given the backblast, you don't want 
to fire it without a faceshield (which is why users are 
generally in a vacc suit, combat armor, or some such).  Made 
specifically for zero-g combat, and to penetrate suits at 
shipboard ranges.

ObTrav:  There was a great effort in the Phoenix Command 
combat system, in the High Tech supplement to design weapons 
specifically for shipboard use.  These weapons were 
purposefully designed to limit penetration - there was even a 
standard maximum penetration depth in equipment that was 
allowed, so that shipboard equipment that was vital could be 
built with this standoff in mind.  Think about what would 
happen if there was a circular firing squad in Traveller on 
the typical merchant ship bridge - even if we're only using 
shotguns and the occasional laser carbine.  What weapons 
might we consider (including non-lethals) if we're going to 
be able to board - and subsequently use - a ship?

Me, I'm willing to try the sticky foam dispenser.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407111020.027e6d50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5D1E5.379BD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 9:19 AM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

Lanning, I'm getting a bit worried when I see my name appearing in so many
of your posts.  I am not the gauss weapon prophet.

> 
> There have been posts (primarily from Tod Glenn) since my post quoted above
> that let's say strongly suggest it would be unlikely that anyone would
> bother to build gauss weapons that way.

Note that I did a comparison of a gauss and non-gauss versions of the same
rifle.  The rifle in question was the M1A (semi version of the M-14) in
7.62x51mm.  The only difference in performance is that a gauss weapon will
have less recoil firing the same bullet at the same velocity.  This is
solely because there is no expelled propellant by byproducts contributing to
recoil.

[snip]

 
> Please note that I am not _rejecting_ claims from gauss weapon
> proponents.  I am being slow to accept them.  I should also point out what
> I posted earlier:  I am reconsidering my house rule on gauss weapon damage,
> mostly because of things Tod Glenn has said.  I made those house rules many
> years ago and haven't been prompted to change them since.  But maybe I
> will, now.  They're just a science fiction item in a science fiction game,
> and I don't feel it's criminally stupid of me to make gauss weapons IMTU
> behave differently than gauss weapons in someone else's TU.  My players
> have been happy with my rules for twenty years, and generally the ones with
> the most knowledge of military firearms have been the happiest.  That tells
> me that my rules aren't just completely ludicrous.  If my version of gauss
> weapons bothers you, then maybe you will find some relief to know that I
> wholeheartedly agree about those magic snub pistols not being able to
> penetrate armor as well as they canonically do.  IMTU, they don't.  You can
> have a HEAP round in your snub pistol, and it may improve it's penetration
> in many circumstances.  But it will still penetrate more poorly than a HEAP
> round from a standard autopistol.  My usual snub pistol description is
> roughly the .25 auto "lady's gun".

Just bear in mind that HEAP round have to travel slowly and can't be spun or
they won't work.  If you look at the velocities of modern AT missiles,
you'll note that they're very low, and for a reason.  The warhead needs time
to form the penetrator jet.  it's unlikely that snub weapons are going to
have stand-off noses, so velocity will have to be low.  Spinning the
projectile disperses the jet, so that's out too.
> 
> If you're curious about what I would change my house rules to say on gauss
> weapons, here's what I am thinking about maybe doing.  Or I may decide not
> to since it's been fun to play with the rules I'm used to and it's just a
> game.  I'm thinking about crunching the numbers with the formulae helpfully
> provided by Tod Glenn using canonical gauss weapon designs and probably a
> couple or three other designs of my own.  Translate the results back into
> Traveller combat stats.  Work through each of the ammo types I believe
> would be useful and decide what differences to implement for a projectile
> that is much longer, proportionally than comparable gunpowder bullets.  I'm
> guessing that some ammo types will be more expensive and others
> cheaper.  And HEAP may be less effective because higher velocities and
> probably faster twists and smaller diameters can be counterproductive for
> that type of ammo, but perhaps the longer projectile will help.  I am also
> thinking about making the gauss weapon itself a lot more expensive.  Or
> not.  I can think of reasonable arguments both ways.  And making gauss
> weapons more fragile than gunpowder weapons.  Or again, perhaps not.


See above.  HEAP is unusable at high velocities and high rates of spin. A
few other things to consider:  A coil gun requires a ferromagnetic
projectile.  No lead or other material.  If it's a railgun, the armature
(projectile) just has to be conductive.  At hypervelocity, there is little
to be gained using special projectiles.  The canonical description of the
gauss round as a hollow point with an armor-piercing core id far more
complicated that necessary. The example used previously is more than
adequately lethal.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAEENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5D411.379C1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 5:54 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@comcast.net wrote:

> ObTrav: Can the expert spot the vehicle with the railgun?
> Look for the longer, heavy duty barrel, perhaps with an
> external truss.
> 
> A railgun would probably require more rigid construction
> to resist this force, which would be considerable if the weapon
> was designed for very high power (like a vehicle mounted weapon).
> 
> The barrel might be much more substantial than a typical
> slugthrower barrel, which has most of its reinforcement in the
> breech area.  

I remember some photos of the railguns built at the University of Texas for
the Army FMBT project.  They look pretty much identical to conventional
barrels, except for the square bore opening.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5D942.379C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 6:04 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@comcast.net wrote:

> ObTrav2:  Tod, how do we arrive at various penetration and damage values for
> CT,
> MT, etc.?  FFS might be easy, and maybe we could work our way backwards.
> Other game systems, such as PCCS, are extremely easy to back-calculate.

I have copies of both FFS and FFS2.  AFAICT, CT figures are just arbitrary.

FFS2 uses SQRT(ME)/10.5 to calculate damage.  I've never liked determining
damage bases solely on muzzle energy.  Instead, I use my own formula where
damage is bases on actual energy transferred to the target.

I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.  The base human target
is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.  We take the
initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the
remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.  From this we
can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.  We use this energy
to calculate damage.

In the case of things like conventional handguns, there are lots of
published sources with total ballistic gelatin penetrations.  Knowing the
density of this material, we can back calculate the retardation and energy
transferred.

This systems gives a measure of 'actual damage'  and we don't have to relay
on then 3D rules and 'lost energy due to 'shoot through'.

> 
> Now, I'm up there with Jeff Cooper in wondering why recoil is a problem,
> but then again, I've never tried a .460 Weatherby.  Might make a flincher
> out of me.

I shoot my .458 win mag Whitworth Express rifle all the time.  Preferred
loading is 500gn hard cast bullet with 72 gn 4895.  I'm not a big guy, but
if find this load 'stimulation' to shoot.  I've never really been bothered
by recoil.  Most people who shoot this do it only once.  I will say a tight
hold on the rifle is essential.  I probably have done my shoulder any good.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 10:18 AM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Recoil is a problem.  As my right eyebrow can testify.  Every time I'd go
> to the rifle range, the flange on the carrying handle of the M-16A1 would
> kick into my eyebrow.  Never took more than a dozen rounds for the eyebrow
> to be bleeding.  But it didn't stop me from shooting about 238 to 242 out
> of 250 on a consistent basis.

You've got talent.  With the old M16A1, I always put the tip on my nose on
the charging handle to make sure I had exactly the same cheek weld.  I'd
often shoot the M16 from my chin or groin to demonstrate it's lack of
recoil.

> bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but
> at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier
> to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always
> wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.

Try shooting one full auto.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3CB08DED.97126F82@virgin.net>

--------------8640A99E3980EE50F0202E80
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
>
> [snip]
> Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
> 20 km/sec.
>
>
> As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
> APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.  The first example you give is 10%
> of that.  The second example has a free recoil somewhere above the elephant
> gun.

Don't disagree there.  But I was talking about a small infantry weapon, not a
vehicle/free standing anti-armour weapon

Si

--------------8640A99E3980EE50F0202E80
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
"John T. Kwon" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Tod Glenn says
<p>[snip]
<br>Let's crank the numbers.&nbsp; Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile
at
<br>20 km/sec.
<br>&nbsp;
<p>As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
<br>APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.&nbsp; The first example you give
is 10%
<br>of that.&nbsp; The second example has a free recoil somewhere above
the elephant
<br>gun.</blockquote>
Don't disagree there.&nbsp; But I <u>was</u> talking about a small infantry
weapon, not a vehicle/free standing anti-armour weapon
<p>Si</html>

--------------8640A99E3980EE50F0202E80--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020407111020.027e6d50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB08FDE.F6F24BCE@virgin.net>

laning wrote:

> Si quotes me then says:
> >laning wrote:
> >
> > > Let's see if I can express myself better this time.

[huge snip]

Yep.  I have no problem with anything you say.  You did however, have a concern
with the damage from a thin-body penetrator compared (as well as you can) with a
'standard' round and i think I might be able to help there.  One thing about
hypervelocity (and hence hyper energy as it is the velocity squared that more than
compensates for the greatly reduced mass) penetrators doing damage is that the
target area (IIRC) behaves as if it were a fluid, IRRESPECTIVE of what it is made
of (depending of course upon the energy of the penetrator).

I am sure someone will correct me (in the politest possible terms) if i am wrong.

;-)

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB08DED.97126F82@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5DE82.379D4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 11:20 AM, Si at mr.fingle@virgin.net wrote:

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
Tod Glenn says 

[snip] 
Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
20 km/sec. 
 

As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.  The first example you give is 10%
of that.  The second example has a free recoil somewhere above the elephant
gun.
Don't disagree there.  But I was talking about a small infantry weapon, not
a vehicle/free standing anti-armour weapon

A weapon with a 4 gm projectile being fired at 20 km/s is not a small
infantry weapon.  The recoil is obscene.  I'd say an upper limit on free
recoil should be no more than 50 J, with 25 J being more realistic.

Si 


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 13:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 12:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
Message-ID: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

	Okay, so I'm considering writing up my own shipbuilding rules ("Yeah,
yeah, kid, you and everybody else - take a number and wait in line."),
and there were a couple of factors that I haven't seen (or have missed)
in the various ships rules in different editions of Traveller:

	Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 'workstations',
but it seems to me that most ships (at least ones that carry passengers)
would require some sort of galley for food preperation.  Has anyone seen
or worked up rules for the minimum size of a ship's galley, based on the
number of crew and passengers carried?

	Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
on the number of ship's crew and other factors?


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 14:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun Apr  7 13:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1de72$5c0c6a00$2f7de40c@loki>

Both have always been outside the rules proper though some systems have
made galleys/stores something one could add if they desired.

I remember a lot of debate about the topic once upon a time. The general
conclusion--abhorred by some--was that the stateroom figure subsumed the
common spaces required to support them.

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 14:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 13:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>

--part1_30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 07/04/02 19:10:37 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


> I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.  The base human target
> is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.  We take the
> initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the
> remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.  From this we
> can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.  We use this energy
> to calculate damage.
> 

Isn't 30cm a little thick? 18cm - 20cm is the normal figure I see quoted.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 07/04/02 19:10:37 GMT Daylight Time, webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.&nbsp; The base human target<BR>
is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.&nbsp; We take the<BR>
initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the<BR>
remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.&nbsp; From this we<BR>
can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.&nbsp; We use this energy<BR>
to calculate damage.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Isn't 30cm a little thick? 18cm - 20cm is the normal figure I see quoted.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8D60220.379F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 1:58 PM, CHam628781@aol.com at CHam628781@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 07/04/02 19:10:37 GMT Daylight Time,
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.  The base human target
is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.  We take the
initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the
remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.  From this we
can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.  We use this energy
to calculate damage.


Isn't 30cm a little thick? 18cm - 20cm is the normal figure I see quoted.

Charles


I measured the thickness of a few friends and came up with about 12" from
front to back for an average chest thickness, or 30 cm.  YMMV.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches - correction.
In-Reply-To: <B8D5D942.379C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8D60286.379FA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 11:08 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

I just looked over my calculations and noted that I forgot to divide by 2
when calculating energy. (i.e. e= mv^2/2).  Please note the error.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407154204.033249d0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn, replying to my rifle range scores with the M-16A1:
>You've got talent.  With the old M16A1, I always put the tip on my nose on
>the charging handle to make sure I had exactly the same cheek weld.  I'd
>often shoot the M16 from my chin or groin to demonstrate it's lack of
>recoil.

Thanks, that's encouraging to hear.  And I used the exact same technique 
with my nose on the charging handle to more precisely get the same cheek 
weld.  One of my buddies in boot camp may have done permanent damage to his 
arm by getting too tight a loop sling all day at the range.  He shot well, 
ne'ertheless.  Chin or groin?  The recoil I recall is more than enough to 
discourage me from trying that one.  It was popular for the marksmanship 
instructors and coaches to tell the troops that, "The M-16 fires a .223 
calibre bullet.  That's the same as a .22.  You aren't going to be afraid 
of a .22 are you?"  This was more useful as propaganda than actual 
fact.  Most of the Americans recruited into today's military have no prior 
experience with firearms of any kind so this might work.  They at least 
have heard enough to know that a .22 is a pretty wimpy little thing.


> > bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but
> > at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier
> > to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always
> > wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.
>
>Try shooting one full auto.

I'd love to!  My curiosity will never be satisfied til I've tried out all 
these weapons that I use in gaming.  And who knows, maybe there'll be the 
chance at the big annual WW2 gathering in Reading, Pennsylvania this 
June.  Sort of like a Ren Faire for WW2 enthusiasts, reenactors, costumers 
who like that period, and everyone else.  It includes a three-day 
reenactment of the Battle of the Bulge.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407172540.00aa2c20@pop.wizard.net>

> > bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but
> > at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier
> > to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always
> > wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.
>
>Try shooting one full auto.

As long as I'm at it, I'd be very interested in shooting the Italian 
BM-59  (I think it's 59), which was essentially the M-14 with some 
improvements.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DE82.379D4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB08DED.97126F82@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407172827.00acfec0@pop.wizard.net>

>
>A weapon with a 4 gm projectile being fired at 20 km/s is not a small
>infantry weapon.  The recoil is obscene.  I'd say an upper limit on free
>recoil should be no more than 50 J, with 25 J being more realistic.

Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread, mentioning the 
ability of various Traveller races to cope with recoil, I should have also 
mentioned battle dress.  That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more 
recoil.  But how much?

-Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F33B1HQroJCIoo8oEoL000062ea@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "How about the Ilelesh Revolt? Didn't the Imperium scrub the sector
capital clean of life as an example to others?"


Mr. Boleyn,

     Thanks, I forgot about that one.
     The Imperium evacuated the population from Ilelish's tropical regions 
and "scrubbed" the "equatorial regions free from life."
     I'd assume (a shocking habit) that the people involved were simply 
moved to the planet's temperate zones rather than off world.  Having the 
remaining population living next door to the lesson being "taught" would 
fulfill the Imperium's requirements nicely.
     The IN then sterilized the equatorial zone with a bombardment of 
enhanced radiation warheads (neutron bombs).  This would allow them to kill 
off everything without triggering a "nuclear winter" of sorts.  They may 
have followed up the bombardment with liberal use of large meson gun spinal 
mounts to "pitchfork" the terrain.
     Ilelish's equatorial zone must have looked like a baked and barren 
jumble of craters, tells, and fissures.  New Mordor anyone?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <200204072135.DON00704@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning asks
>
>Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread, 
>mentioning the ability of various Traveller races to cope 
>with recoil, I should have also mentioned battle dress.  
>That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more recoil.  But 
>how much?
>

Good question.  I've always wondered about this, because if 
you could carry large weapons and handle high recoil, you 
would have a semi-auto rifle that fired high velocity 20mm 
(not low velocity 20mm like the OICW).

20mm californium rounds, that is.  The one part of Striker I 
really liked.  Hit someone in battledress and watch the 
little mushroom cloud.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:55:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:55:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB168FD.22000.23BF80@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 11:15, Tod Glenn wrote:

> You've got talent.  With the old M16A1, I always put the tip on my nose
> on the charging handle to make sure I had exactly the same cheek weld. 
> I'd often shoot the M16 from my chin or groin to demonstrate it's lack
> of recoil.

My preferred method of supporting the M16A1 was to have my right hand 
(I'm a lefty) open and simply rest the forend on my palm. I found the 
rifle would bounce and then recover to the same point of aim all by 
itself, which made getting a good  sight picture for following shots 
quick and easy. Don't try this with the AUG - you'll lose it and 
probably get the optic sight banged into your eyebrow. It may be 
heavier but it's rather butt heavy so it jumps quite a bit more than 
the M16A1.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D60220.379F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 14:03, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I measured the thickness of a few friends and came up with about 12"
> from front to back for an average chest thickness, or 30 cm.  YMMV.

Do you give out less damage for hits in thinner places, or do you just 
assume a poor damage roll reflects this? And wouldn't the chest tend to 
be less dense than other parts of the body due to the 'air-filled' 
lungs?

Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth 
for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and 
for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females 
it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing. 
Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how 
old the data is.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407180357.0331dc40@pop.wizard.net>

Perry says he's developing shipbuilding rules:
>         Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 
> 'workstations',
>but it seems to me that most ships (at least ones that carry passengers)
>would require some sort of galley for food preperation.  Has anyone seen
>or worked up rules for the minimum size of a ship's galley, based on the
>number of crew and passengers carried?

Nothing I'm aware of.  And you make a very good point.  Perhaps finding Web 
sites or actual books on kitchen design is the best thing for 
that.  Especially restaurant kitchens.

We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including ironing.  Every 
service a hotel provides, basically.

>         Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
>amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
>other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
>that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
>rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
>on the number of ship's crew and other factors?

There are rules in all or most versions of Traveller for baggage and cargo 
allowances for passengers.  I assume baggage goes in their stateroom and 
cargo is containerized and placed in the cargo hold.  Ship's lockers are 
certainly recommended, and usually appear in published deck plans and 
privately designed ones.  But that doesn't leave pantry space, linen space, 
etc.  You might want to find a textbook on hotel planning, and look at 
military field manuals and technical manuals for logistics planning.  And 
surely the real life sailors have some knowledge about this.

In fact maybe both your questions and all related questions can be answered 
using real world naval architecture references.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEODCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Just finished reading a hardcopy of AK wounds in Vietnam.
A medical summary report on "Da Nang lung" which was 
pulmonary edema brought on by unregulated overuse of 
intravenous fluid replacement (without regard to electrolyte
balance).  Death was the result, usually two to three days
after successful repair operations.

The point I nearly missed is that most rifle wounds in the
prone are plunging fire which enters the shoulder area,
and failing deflection on the shoulder blade, penetrates in
a downward diagonal towards the pelvis.  This caused a
lot of damage, which, if it missed kidneys and major
blood vessels, was not immediately fatal.  It did
necessitate a lot of repair, and the lack of knowledge
in the 1960s about fluid replacement resulted in death.

The distance from the shoulder blade to the hip socket,
taken at a diagonal, is a considerable distance.  Most AK
rounds evidently stopped after traveling this far in the
body. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407180357.0331dc40@pop.wizard.net>
References: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407151942.0248eec0@mail.verizon.net>

>We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including 
>ironing.  Every service a hotel provides, basically.

Even hookers?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB168FD.22000.23BF80@localhost>
References: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407181218.033aa1f0@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert:
>My preferred method of supporting the M16A1 was to have my right hand
>(I'm a lefty) open and simply rest the forend on my palm. I found the
>rifle would bounce and then recover to the same point of aim all by
>itself, which made getting a good  sight picture for following shots
>quick and easy. Don't try this with the AUG - you'll lose it and
>probably get the optic sight banged into your eyebrow. It may be
>heavier but it's rather butt heavy so it jumps quite a bit more than
>the M16A1.

Yes.  You want your rifle sling stretched nice and tight, partly so that 
you can wedge your foreward hand into the narrow angle between the taut 
sling and the ...argh how can I have _forgotten_ the proper 
nomenclature!  Just shoot me now.

Anyway, with your hand tightly wedged in, and a fairly stable triangle of 
tension between that forward hand, its elbow nicely resting on the ground 
or your knee, and the opposite shoulder, you should go right back to the 
same sight picture pretty quickly and naturally.

Firing in the "offhand position" was always the hardest for me.  Prone, 
kneeling, sitting, or anything else you can do to brace against something 
immovable (like the ground or a wall or a tree) makes a huge, huge 
difference.  Firing with nothing in particular to help you hold the thing 
steady is tough.  Standing, "rapid" fire, is tricky.  I started out just 
doing it through sheer concentration and did okay.  I then experimented 
with figure eight and other similar techniques when I heard about 
them.  Which were good for improving my score a little but seemed to have 
very little practical application on the battlefield.  I think I would have 
been great at trench warfare.  I don't know about patrolling, though.  Even 
someone who doesn't anticipate or flinch is going to have a tough time 
aiming at and hitting anything if everybody is running/walking around.

For referees with little or no experience shooting, please keep in mind the 
importance of firing from a braced position (prone is probably the most 
ideal) and also the importance of having many seconds to aim at an unmoving 
target.  Or if it's moving, then moving very steadily and predictably is 
almost as good as immobile.  Also, untrained or insufficiently trained 
personnel have a strong tendency to anticipate the recoil by actually 
raising the front of the weapon themselves as they squeeze the trigger.

I suspect anticipation is the single greatest cause of close-range pistol 
combats that result in nobody being hit by a bullet.  It happens all the 
time.  Anticipation, fear, adrenaline, inability to concentrate well enough 
to remember to try to use even the most elementary and easy principles of 
marksmanship.  The more I learn about how many reasons there are for people 
not hitting their opponent in combat, the more respect I develop for Alvin 
York.  And the more important I think it is to deal with your fear ahead of 
time, so you can you put it out of your mind during combat.

--Laning
"Fear is the mind killer."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
References: <B8D60220.379F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407183334.027f11c0@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert:
>Do you give out less damage for hits in thinner places, or do you just
>assume a poor damage roll reflects this? And wouldn't the chest tend to
>be less dense than other parts of the body due to the 'air-filled'
>lungs?
>
>Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth
>for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and
>for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females
>it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing.
>Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how
>old the data is.

Reporter:  "How can you shoot children and teenagers like that, Corporal?"
Corporal:  "Easy.  You use a lighter load."

-Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEODCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407183737.028bbdd0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon:
>The distance from the shoulder blade to the hip socket,
>taken at a diagonal, is a considerable distance.  Most AK
>rounds evidently stopped after traveling this far in the
>body.

Useful to keep in mind when shooting at K'Kree or the like.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEODCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB173E1.15599.4E49DB@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 18:15, John T. Kwon wrote:

> The distance from the shoulder blade to the hip socket,
> taken at a diagonal, is a considerable distance.  Most AK
> rounds evidently stopped after traveling this far in the
> body. 

IME a 7.62x39mm round when fired from an SKS, which has a longer barrel 
than an AK-47, at a goat from a fairly short range (maybe 20 yards) 
will travel through its entire length (in this case approximately 2 
feet) and stop inside the skin without exiting. That would be about the 
same distance, allowing for the elasticity of the goat's skin. The goat 
died effectively instantly because the bullet passed through its heart 
and the major vessels on top of it.

Just another data point.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407181218.033aa1f0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CB168FD.22000.23BF80@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB17502.746.52B49D@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 18:32, laning wrote:

> For referees with little or no experience shooting, please keep in mind
> the importance of firing from a braced position (prone is probably the
> most ideal) and also the importance of having many seconds to aim at an
> unmoving target.  Or if it's moving, then moving very steadily and
> predictably is almost as good as immobile.

But if they're ducking and weaving and bolting from cover to cover in 
an unpredicable manner you can pretty much forget more than the most 
basic aiming. In these cases I recommend a machinegun.

Also followup shots from a trained shooter are much faster than the 
first shot, as you've already done most of the aiming for the first 
shot - all you're doing for the later shots is correcting for the 
effects of recoil.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB17502.746.52B49D@localhost>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOECGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Rupert Boleyn says
[But if they're ducking and weaving and bolting from cover to cover in 
an unpredicable manner you can pretty much forget more than the most 
basic aiming. In these cases I recommend a machinegun.]

At ranges up to about thirty yards, using a pump-action paintball
gun with crude post sights, I was able to hit people who were running,
dodging, popping their heads up over cover intermittently...

That's not full auto, nor is it a high velocity weapon.

No problem.

The running people don't dodge nearly as much as they think.  This is
more of a factor where time of flight of the round is significant.  Figure
a tenth of a second for every hundred yards of flight, and you can see
that the dodge is really something that has to be anticipated rather 
than seen.  Below "tenth of a second" range, dodging is relatively 
ineffective, and tracking a running target is largely a matter of practice.
I had an instructor who claimed to kill VC bikers on 1-beer bets - that is,
he would use an M-14, and if he got them on the first round, he got a beer.
Some of his friends from that time laughed, because they remember him
*always* getting his beer.

Oddly, I do better on moving targets if I'm standing.

People who peek out from behind cover only get to do it once with me.
What's even more funny is that most of the people I've hit in 
paintball like this probably saw the one I put right over their
head to make sure of where the next one was going. 

ObTrav:  Your enemy will use the terrain around you to spot the
fall of his fire, and will adjust accordingly.  If you stay in the
same spot, and peek out repeatedly, you're going to get nailed.  They
may even resort to tricks to get you to look twice.  There are many
anecdotes about people being killed when they "just look".

ObTrav: Shooting at a moving target is a matter of practice if the
target moves in a straight line, regardless of velocity. The exception
comes when the target is "uncertain" as in the next ObTrav.

ObTrav: Dodging effectiveness is the result of "movement uncertainty".
The best explanation of this is that after you release the round,
the target has time to move.  For a target at 500 yards, this can be
nearly half a second -- unless you're using a laser rifle.  Imagine
trying to anticipate whether or not a moving man will stop, bend down,
turn or not nearly 1/2 second into the future.  So you put a lot of 
rounds into his general vicinity with a machinegun.  They say that 
the real sniper is the man who can anticipate this movement. The only
combat system that I've seen that models this is PCCS.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
Message-ID: <OF0BD69FC0.8B0C14DC-ONCA256B94.00752218@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

I haven't seen "GDWGAMES" around for a while.

I know Loren was having access problems - does anyone know if that is 
still the case?

Failing that, perhaps you could select one of the following:
        1.      On holidays;
        2.      Attempting to retrieve gear from his fabled lock-up on the 
other side of the US;
        3.      Snowed under (and as he's in Texas, you _know_ I mean this 
as an analogy for workload! ;-);
        4.      Banned from 'Net access by the Illuminati;
        5.      Stuck in a box in Warehouse 23 (maybe with some Zhodani 
infiltrators, cf. Challenge 60 or thereabouts);
        6.      Shipped out on a _Donosev_ (along with Stuart Ferris, 
didn't he just get his Surveyor's Cert.?);
        7.      All of the above;
        8.      None of the above [insert your version of events here].

Que?

<sigh> It must be Monday.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
Message-ID: <200204072341.DOR00933@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I keep wondering about those passenger prices.  It doesn't 
make any sense.  If I fly from Washington, DC to Newark, NJ, 
it's cheaper than flying from Washington, DC to Los Angeles, 
CA.

There is also a hub system in the US, which rewards you for 
transferring in places like Cincinnati and Atlanta, but I'll 
leave that out.

So, we've got two merchant ships.  One is Jump-1, and goes to 
and from a nearby star.  The other is Jump-5, and goes to 
another star 5 parsecs away.  Theoretically, if there's a 
Jump-1 route, you could take the Jump-1 ship to get to the 
Jump-5 destination, but it would take five tickets to get 
there.  Now, if I'm a Jump-5 ship, and I'm going 5 parsecs, 
the next fastest ship (a Jump-4 perhaps) can get you there 
for two tickets.  So what should I charge you?  I'm betting 
that I could charge more than the price of a single ticket, 
and you would still take my ship because it's less and you 
get there a week ahead of time.

Has anyone hashed out what ticket prices really should be?
Or cargo transport, for that matter.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOECGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <3CB17502.746.52B49D@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB18225.32194.860812@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 19:09, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn says
> [But if they're ducking and weaving and bolting from cover to cover in
> an unpredicable manner you can pretty much forget more than the most
> basic aiming. In these cases I recommend a machinegun.]
> 
> At ranges up to about thirty yards, using a pump-action paintball
> gun with crude post sights, I was able to hit people who were running,
> dodging, popping their heads up over cover intermittently...
> 
> That's not full auto, nor is it a high velocity weapon.
> 
> No problem.

That's like using a shipboard laser at sub-light second ranges though - 
they don't have time to move out of the way. Besides at that range 
doing much the same thing I didn't use the sights most of the time, but 
just pointed the gun at the victim - it was faster and just as (in) 
accurate.
 
> The running people don't dodge nearly as much as they think.

That's probably because running and dodging are generally incompatible.

> Oddly, I do better on moving targets if I'm standing.

I'm not surprised - it's easier to get a smooth motion and a good 
follow-through.
 
> People who peek out from behind cover only get to do it once with me.
> What's even more funny is that most of the people I've hit in paintball
> like this probably saw the one I put right over their head to make sure
> of where the next one was going. 

People who peek from behind cover more than once deserve what they get, 
IMO. So do people who come to a firefight without backup and buddies.

> ObTrav: Dodging effectiveness is the result of "movement uncertainty".
> The best explanation of this is that after you release the round, the
> target has time to move.  For a target at 500 yards, this can be nearly
> half a second -- unless you're using a laser rifle.  Imagine trying to
> anticipate whether or not a moving man will stop, bend down, turn or not
> nearly 1/2 second into the future.  So you put a lot of rounds into his
> general vicinity with a machinegun.  They say that the real sniper is
> the man who can anticipate this movement. The only combat system that
> I've seen that models this is PCCS.

IIRC you needed the advanced expansion for this.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020407234850.57151.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
If that retinal scanner makes the crew sit through
three or four rescans before it lets them in, or
mistakes them for a terrorist a couple times a week,
expect the retinal scanner to be bypassed before the
ship comes out of its first jump.
END QUOTE

Thats what fire axes are for!

HAL:Come on Dave be reasonable! Put the axe down!
Dave, Dave! NOOOOOOOO...0).^%^$&9&##5.

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 18:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 17:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <20020408000859.81953.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
People who strap on a PGMP-15 to go to the
'fresher annoy me,  IMTU they'll have to make
do with a shotgun.
END QUOTE

Well if nasty things happen to you every time you go
to the fresher you get paranoid! In my old group
(non-trav) we had a particularly nasty Ref, it got to
the point where my characters refused to go any where
with out two other armed characters! And I still died
alot! Though I survived longer than most. The greatest
thing ever was all the munchkins we had in the group
they where very good for cannon fodder ;) After a
while it got quite hard to walk anywhere due to the
amount of gear I was carrying. 

Me:All right essential equipment only, 3 LAW's check,
powered battle armour check, heavy machine gun check,
2000 rounds check, 12 white phosporous grenades check,
12 frag grenades check, semi-auto shotgun check, 200
rounds solid check, 200 rounds flechette check,
satelite phone check, 12mm pistol check, 100 rounds
12mm check, 20kg C4 check, 2 litres holy water check
(can never be to careful), 6 customised throwing
penguins check. <To other PC's> Okay Im going to the
bathroom now. If you here me scream or Im not back in
15 minutes call in an airstrike.

;)

James (Oh no, not Cthulhu again!) Ramsay

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 18:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 17:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
Message-ID: <95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9@aol.com>

--part1_95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Last time I spoke to him (just a couple of days ago, actually) he had just
acquired a new computer for home use and was in the process of getting
set up on it. I imagine we'll see GDWGAMES online again before too much
longer.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Last time I spoke to him (just a couple of days ago, actually) he had just
<BR>acquired a new computer for home use and was in the process of getting
<BR>set up on it. I imagine we'll see GDWGAMES online again before too much
<BR>longer.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 18:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr  7 17:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
References: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0E12F.6A9B3511@premier.net>


knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> 
>         Okay, so I'm considering writing up my own shipbuilding rules ("Yeah,
> yeah, kid, you and everybody else - take a number and wait in line."),
> and there were a couple of factors that I haven't seen (or have missed)
> in the various ships rules in different editions of Traveller:
> 
>         Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 'workstations',
> but it seems to me that most ships (at least ones that carry passengers)
> would require some sort of galley for food preperation.  Has anyone seen
> or worked up rules for the minimum size of a ship's galley, based on the
> number of crew and passengers carried?

FF&S2 describes two types of galleys for food preparation: Ordinary and
Full.  An Ordinary galley requires .2 m^3 per person served, with a
minimum size of 4 m^3.  Meager through Good rations can be competently
prepared in an Ordinary galley (1 cook per 40 sophonts).  A Full galley
requires .3 m^3 per person served, with a minimum size of 12 m^3. 
Preparation of Excellent meals requires a Full galley and a cook with
Steward 3+ or Cook 2+ (1 cook per 20 sophonts if preparing Excellent
meals; 1 cook per 40 sophonts otherwise).  Food storage is discussed in
Tables 211 and 212; volume required for a given number of sophont-weeks
of rations depends on food quality and TL.

Larger AuricTech designs tend to have sufficient Full galleys to support
a full complement of crew and passengers, along with an equal capacity
in Ordinary galleys.  When such ships are operating with a standard
complement, the Ordinary galleys are generally used as "snack bars," and
are attached to facilities such as crew lounges or the Combat
Information Center; if a ship is packed to double occupancy, the
Ordinary galleys provide the required "overflow" food preparation
capacity to serve the additional occupants.
> 
>         Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
> amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
> other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
> that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
> rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
> on the number of ship's crew and other factors?

Again, FF&S2 discusses ship's lockers, though in less detail.  Page 15
states that the volume required is "designer's choice," with suggested
values of .5 m^3 per 1,000 m^3 of ship or per crew member.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
civilians.  It has little or no military application,
contrary to popular mythos.
END QUOTE

True. But......

They don't like it up 'em mister mainwaring, they
don't like it up 'em ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:06:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:06:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020407190105.2914E27A15@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c1de9a$066819a0$e35e8690@computer>

> From: Robert Houghton
> What about the ratio of 'civilian' deaths to 'military' deaths? Who gets
> the award for most civilian casulties compared to military casulties,
> not overall numbers?

Hmm.  Well, if you find an example where there were *no* military
casualties, that ratio will give you a division by zero error.  Try the PNG
intervention in Vanuatu in 1980 for an example of this - the *only* casualty
was a civilian.

Of the wars I listed (WWII, Taiping Rebellion, and WWI), the civilian
casualties were huge in the first two, and *relatively* small in the latter.

Another interesting mass-death situation is the Stalinist forced
collectivizations in the early 30s.  This was essentially a civil war,
although militarily it was one sided.  It was a product of pure
incompetence - industry had been neglected, so the cities couldn't afford to
buy food from the peasants - result:  starvation, forcible requisitioning
and massacres.

China has had a few "interesting" times.  The decades before 1949 saw almost
continuous civil wars, foreign invasions, famines, epidemics, and all the
other horrors you can imagine.  After that, there was the famine that
coincided with the "Great Leap Forward", reversing the Leap's direction, and
the civil war called the "Cultural Revolution", when rival factions
organised mobs to attack each other.

The partition of India was a delightful little blood bath, too.  There are
just so many other cases, too.  John's selection of horrors was actually
comparatively mild, if you think about it.

My guess for biggest pile of dead civilians would still be WWII, though.  As
a ratio, it's harder to say, because of the absurd case of no military
casualties.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
And how would you rate the Colonial Marine unit in
"Aliens"?
END QUOTE

One word. F*#&ing officers.
Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
interview on the DVD). 

James (Who owns the DVD of Aliens even though he has
no DVD player. And also wants to join the USMC because
of Aliens even though he is Australian.)


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS War what is it good for, absolutely nothing (apart f
 rom the Industrial Military complex)
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17918@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

> I can't buy into that at all, John.  Sorry.  Wars seem no more
> omnipresent today than they were in classical times.  The only
> relationships I would draw are the motivation for vengeance that
> connects the survivors to a mass slaughter, and Malthusian effects of
> reducing population pressure by reducing population.  Two forces that
> relationships that seem in opposition to each other.  Even if you
> massacre _all_ your enemy, even the children below age six, you will
> put yourself high on the rest of the world's Enemies To Destroy list. 
> There will come the day you are on the losing side in a war, and
> genocide is not a precedent that you'd like to have around.


John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 
I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because 
humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill 
that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate 
thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in 
Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost 
any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something 
separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before. 
 
The three examples above are only those examples I know of with 
the highest death toll, tens of thousands were also been killed in 
Indonesia in the 1960s and in the ruins of Yugoslavia.  

Combat lethality may have gone down, but death tolls in conflicts 
have certainly gone *way* up.

From Me:
Unfortunately it seems that as the leathility of the battlefield increases,
the likelihood of inter-state war (ie between two countries) has decreased.
So conflicts largely around the globe, present US campaign excluded, are
internal disputes. And when it is internal it is when genocide and other
nasty elimination stuff, happens the most. Especially when you have western
industrial powers that are unwilling to become involved in 'Nation Building'
and actually step in and say 'hey man, killing your own people is wrong'.
Fortunately that seems to be happening a bit more now. 

The sad thing is for Afghanistan is that  the best thing that ever happened
to them, I hope in the long run that is, was September 11. Cause there was
no way in hell anyone was going to do anything about it otherwise.

My 0.02 of course. 


Mikey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
In-Reply-To: <200204072341.DOR00933@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407180641.00a07670@mindspring.com>

At 07:41 PM 4/7/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I keep wondering about those passenger prices.  It doesn't
>make any sense.  If I fly from Washington, DC to Newark, NJ,
>it's cheaper than flying from Washington, DC to Los Angeles,
>CA.

Wrong analogy, think steamships in the days before regular air travel.

Passengers could get (relatively) cheap passage between large established 
ports, say Southampton and New York, they were serviced by large, regular 
liners.  Getting from London to Mombassa involved trips on small freighters 
with a few extra staterooms, any number of stops and delays, and being 
charged whatever the market could get away with.  Think the freighter in 
"Raiders of the Lost Ark."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:30:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:30:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <20020407234850.57151.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407181125.009efb90@mindspring.com>

At 09:48 AM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>QUOTE
>If that retinal scanner makes the crew sit through
>three or four rescans before it lets them in, or
>mistakes them for a terrorist a couple times a week,
>expect the retinal scanner to be bypassed before the
>ship comes out of its first jump.
>END QUOTE
>
>Thats what fire axes are for!
>
>HAL:Come on Dave be reasonable! Put the axe down!
>Dave, Dave! NOOOOOOOO...0).^%^$&9&##5.

"Computer, if you don't open that exit hatch this moment I shall zap 
straight off to your major data banks and reprogram you with a very large 
ax, got that?"

<silence>

"Right.  Get the ax."

<door opens>

Zaphod Beeblebrox


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
   - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
In-Reply-To: <OF0BD69FC0.8B0C14DC-ONCA256B94.00752218@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <000601c1de9d$a1a80760$2f7de40c@loki>

david.d.jaques-watson supposes, "4. Banned from 'Net access by the
Illuminati;"

Maybe the Illuminati are just preventing you from receiving GDWGames
copious daily posts filled with detailed information you are not
prepared to read.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407180641.00a07670@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOGCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Douglas Berry says
[Passengers could get (relatively) cheap passage between large established
ports, say Southampton and New York, they were serviced by large, regular
liners.  Getting from London to Mombassa involved trips on small freighters
with a few extra staterooms, any number of stops and delays, and being
charged whatever the market could get away with.  Think the freighter in
"Raiders of the Lost Ark." ] endBlock

Then let's consider a frontier. No established trade routes.
You can either take a Jump-2 ship to a destination 5 parsecs away
through intermediate planets at 8,000 cr per jump (three jumps total,
24,000 cr), or you can take my Jump-5 ship, and I charge you 20,000 cr
for the same middle passage.  It's a one off, and I can get you and
your friends there earlier.

Which makes me wonder where they come up with the idea of those
prices.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
Message-ID: <20020407.215033.-132267.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 19:15:43 -0500 John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
writes:

> FF&S2 describes two types of galleys for food preparation: 

> Again, FF&S2 discusses ship's lockers, though in less detail.  

Thanks for the info.  I do own a copy of FFS2, but tend to go blind after
awhile reading through all those tables.

Again, thanks.


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <20020408022950.69084.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Or Ha-Un batteries (Batteries made from a mixture of
Handwavium and Unobtainium)...
END QUOTE

I believe the equation is Ha+Un = TU ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hull designs, deck plans, yadda yadda
Message-ID: <200204080233.DOX00653@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

A ship is a pressure vessel, right? I'm trying to think of a 
reason that you would waste space on a "hallway".  I'm 
thinking of the deck plan for a needle configuration, and I'm 
thinking that it would be similar to a modern submarine, with 
a long tapered nose.

The deck plan of a submarine came to mind, and I don't 
remember seeing "hallways".  

Are there any deck plans of a modern submarine on the web?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>

At 11:08 AM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:

>One word. F*#&ing officers.
>Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
>officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
>enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
>interview on the DVD).

OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's 
all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window 
as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get 
Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.  In my view, those 
are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:39:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:39:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOGCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407180641.00a07670@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193614.009ffac0@mindspring.com>

At 09:38 PM 4/7/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Then let's consider a frontier. No established trade routes.
>You can either take a Jump-2 ship to a destination 5 parsecs away
>through intermediate planets at 8,000 cr per jump (three jumps total,
>24,000 cr), or you can take my Jump-5 ship, and I charge you 20,000 cr
>for the same middle passage.  It's a one off, and I can get you and
>your friends there earlier.
>
>Which makes me wonder where they come up with the idea of those
>prices.

People with very little experience in travel.

GT: Far Trader does a much better job of modelling the actual flow of 
passenger prices.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001501c1dea7$7bed0480$0b01a8c0@duck>

>      Intersecting meson beams being used as some sort of active sensor
> system.  The beams also need to intersect at a "shallow", or obtuse, angle
> with each other.  The beams in the case of Tanis system were projected
from
> two widely seperated locations the system's planetoid belt.

Actually, one beam was from a GG moon, the other from Darrian itself.

>      This adds some complexity to any deploymeny of the Star Trigger. ...
> Two ships would then be a minimum; one to release the probe and project a
> beam, the other to project the second beam.

The original (non-working Star Trigger) didn't know anything about the
meson interference project.  They thought the stellar probe itself caused
the flares.  Therefore, the original operation of the Star Trigger would
only require a single ship.

For an operational deployment, I would imagine that three ships would be
needed.  The two meson ships, and a much smaller "delivery" ship.  (Which
could possibly have to be sacrificed.)

>      IIRC, the effects aren't seen for many hours and, presumably, the
meson
> beams need to operated for that entire length of time.

This is not stated, and there is at least one hint that they don't.  I got
the impression that once the proper convergence was achieved, it was pretty
much over.  The wait was for the effects to reach you.

>      All of this makes the Star Trigger a rather finicky device.  ...

While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I don't
see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the trick
is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it.

>      This may be part of the reason why the Sword Worlds haven't been on
the
> recieving end of one yet.  The devastation that such a strike would also
> inflict on both Imperial and Confederation systems may also be part of the
> answer.

The reason the Sword Worlds never received a flare was for two reasons:
1) They are too close.  The Darrians would suffer from the EMP results as
   well as the Sword Worlders, unless they went *deep* into SW territory.
2) The Star Trigger did not become operational until after the Fifth FW.
   After the FFW, the Sword Worlds were, quite frankly, not much of a threat
   to the Darrians.

From what I can tell, after the FFW the Darrians had very few external
threats.  The only annoyance (besides the fractured Sword Worlds) seems to
be Garoo!  And no matter how annoying Garoo is, they just can't be worth
the effort and political backlash of using the Star Trigger.

> ...  If, IYTU, this mission fails or the
> reason(s) for it is/are not suspected, the Star Trigger is little more
than
> an extremely effective bogeyman.

While you can do whatever you want IYTU, in the OTU the Star Trigger does
work.

>      One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star
> Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was
> faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.

This is a great point.  It never really dawned on me, but you are
absolutely correct!  I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an
incredible accomplishment in its own right.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 21:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun Apr  7 20:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407231301.0210b390@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:49 PM 4/7/2002, knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>Okay, so I'm considering writing up my own shipbuilding rules

Cool!

>Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 'workstations' [...]
>Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
>amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
>other sundries.

Yes to both; "traditional" Traveller starship construction rules assumed 
that these, as well as other habitability needs (freshers, corridors, 
lifts, common areas, recreational facilities, etc.) are included in the 
canonical 4 dtons per person stateroom requirement.

When drawing deckplans, I generally allocate between 2 and 3 dtons for the 
actual stateroom, and use the remaining 1-2 dtons/stateroom for galley, 
storage, etc.  Remember that prior to FF&S, the Traveller starship 
construction rules were fairly loose, and fudging items like this was 
generally negligible in the long run.

I believe FF&S2 has rules for both provisions and preparation facilities.

Back in the CT days, I used to have a house rule that for extended duration 
missions (longer than 30 days), ships had to allocate 1% of the ship's 
total volume per month of provisions.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 21:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 20:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEOICGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_AAW+O329uHELj9/oA8bCnw)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Just looking at an interactive cruise ship deck plan.
http://dvo.free.fr/home.html

The standard prefab ship's cabin is 2.9 x 5 m or
2.9 x 5.5m.  This comes with two twin beds, shower,
hair dryer, tv/vcr, refrigerator w/soft drinks/minibar,
personal safe, telephone. closet, small desk, small
table, clothes drawers. The difference in the room
space is taken up by a different size desk.

Assuming a 3 meter ceiling, this is a little over 3 dTons.

Not bad, considering the amount of space.  This leaves
0.9 dTons of space for other purposes. But looking at 
the "hallways", I'm sure this excess is all used up before
you ever get to the dining rooms, etc.

If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area
of comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen,
restaurant kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.

_________________________________
There cannot be a crisis next week.  My schedule is already full.


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 21:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun Apr  7 20:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <001501c1dea7$7bed0480$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407233535.0201a0f0@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:45 PM 4/7/2002, Mike West wrote:
>[Somebody else said:]
>>One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star 
>>Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was 
>>faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.
>
>It never really dawned on me, but you are absolutely correct

Actually, it was hinted at: the Darrians are supposed to be Known Space's 
experts on stellar phenomena.  They faked the demonstration by being able 
to predict (far enough in advance) an appropriate naturally-occurring 
stellar phenomena, and then deploying ships to the site in time for the 
Star Trigger to be able to take credit for causing it.  IMHO, this is the 
rough equivalent of claiming to have an Earthquake Projector, and "proving" 
this claim by predicting a significant and unexpected earthquake well in 
advance.

I'm sure the use of Darrian military security around the site of the 
demonstration didn't hurt, either.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEOICGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20020408040109.7500F27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/07/02 at 11:35 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@comcast.net> said:

>If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
>meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area of
>comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen, restaurant
>kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.

Why 3 meters for deck to overhead?  It may be standard, but a lot of
that overhead is going to be wasted space. Two and a half meters is a
little over 8 feet, and that should be plenty. This gives you 5 - 1.5
meter squares per dton.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408000718.0284f8d0@pop.wizard.net>

James Ramsay:
>James (Who owns the DVD of Aliens even though he has
>no DVD player. And also wants to join the USMC because
>of Aliens even though he is Australian.)

We'll gladly take you, son.  You don't have to be a U.S. citizen to be a 
U.S. Marine.  I shared a barracks room for a year with a Lebanese Christian 
who was still a Lebanese citizen.  Contact the closest American consulate 
if you're serious.  Be sure to be able to do lots of pull ups from a dead 
hang and run three miles in under say 24 minutes.

And when you get off the plane to go to the Marine Corps Recruit Depot, 
just remember these two words:  "yellow footprints".  <WEG>

Much more serious advice.  Possibly the most important advice you will ever 
get in your life.  Find an MOS that gives you the training and expertise 
you want to use in your civilian career after you get it, and get that 
guaranteed in writing and signed by an officer.  Do not accept any talk no 
matter how reasonable or persuasive as a substitute.  Get the MOS you want, 
guaranteed.  In writing.  In writing.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
References: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>

Doug Berry regarding the film 'Aliens':
>OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's 
>all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window 
>as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.
>
>Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get 
>Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.  In my view, 
>those are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.

He was a brave fool, but a fool nonetheless.  But that's to be expected as 
the training, organization, and doctrine of the entire organization seemed 
to have been designed by the same.

Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units in 
Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no provision 
whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up against the 
Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win because of their 
balanced organization and integral combat and logistical support, despite 
their major technological disadvantage.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

laning says

[Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units in
Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no provision
whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up against the
Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win because of their
balanced organization and integral combat and logistical support, despite
their major technological disadvantage.] endBlock

Well then, I guess it's up to us to remedy that.

I had always wanted to do an entire orbital assault ship complete with its
marine complement (down to the last little bit).  Would need additional
ships capable of landing supplies, setting up landing fields, etc.  There's
a lot more to a successful landing than ships that can pound the planet into
rubble and a single shipload of marines.

Ever wonder why the naval units don't have pickets, reconnaissance,
minesweepers, etc?  No hospital ship, either.  I guess the Marines would
have nowhere to evac to if they're wounded.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB0F014.30539.36165A5@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020408044045.02AAD279F0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/08/02 at 01:19 AM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
said:

>On 7 Apr 2002 at 9:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

>> ObTrav:  To be controllable in full auto, I would think we would want
>> the free recoil down in the M-16 range (which is dubious, if you've ever
>> tried to hit something at 100 yards on full auto with the M-16).  I've
>> also noticed that as soon as recoil levels go over, say, a light rifle
>> in .243, people begin to notice, and when they notice, they either
>> flinch, or are apprehensive about firing, especially the first round.

>They do? Even my sisters didn't consider the SMLE to be excessive
>once  they were adults. It was a bit heavy when we were 10 or 12,
>though.  I've always thought that recoil isn't significant until
>you're dealing  with light, light .270 Winchesters, light .30-06's
>and up.

I had a problem with a 12 gauge when I was a kid. <g> I didn't even
notice there was recoil with a .22 rifle.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
Message-ID: <20020407.214938.-3991.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 23:01:11 -0500 "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
writes:
> On 04/07/02 at 11:35 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@comcast.net> said:
> 
> >If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
> >meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area of
> >comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen, 
> restaurant kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.
> 
> Why 3 meters for deck to overhead?  It may be standard, but a lot of
> that overhead is going to be wasted space. Two and a half meters is 
> alittle over 8 feet, and that should be plenty. This gives you 5 -  1.5
> meter squares per dton.
> 
> Eris

I assumed the 3 meters was deck to deck, allowing the extra space for
conduits, ducts, overhead lighting,, pipes, electrical stuff, grav plates
etc.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
Message-ID: <OF1B531251.5105373F-ONCA256B95.001A7F77@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Charles replied to Laning thus:
>>We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including 
>>ironing.  Every service a hotel provides, basically.
>
>Even hookers?

Certainly! Just the things you need to grab on to when you perform an EVA 
and the ship decides to lurch suddenly.

...or did I misunderstand your point?

;-)  ;-)  ;-)

(It really _must_ be Monday.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
In-Reply-To: <20020407.214938.-3991.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020408051123.47CD3279C0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/07/02 at 09:49 PM,  generalturokan@juno.com said:

>On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 23:01:11 -0500 "Eris Reddoch"
><erisred@telocity.com> writes:
>> On 04/07/02 at 11:35 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@comcast.net> said:
>> 
>> >If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
>> >meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area of
>> >comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen, 
>> restaurant kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.
>> 
>> Why 3 meters for deck to overhead?  It may be standard, but a lot of
>> that overhead is going to be wasted space. Two and a half meters is 
>> alittle over 8 feet, and that should be plenty. This gives you 5 -  1.5
>> meter squares per dton.
>> 
>> Eris

>I assumed the 3 meters was deck to deck, allowing the extra space for
>conduits, ducts, overhead lighting,, pipes, electrical stuff, grav
>plates etc.

I do to, but I allocate 6" to 8" for all that. I'm looking for extra
floor space to playing in. <g>  IAC, there's nothing stopping you from
tinkering with different shapes and sizes.

In one design I put lots of little sleeping chambers (ala the coffins
in some Japanese hotels) just high enough sit crosslegged on the bed
and not hit your head and just long enough to stretch out. Stack them
two or three high with a single shared fresher for a half dozen. The
passengers of these things use them for sleeping (storage under the
mat they sleep on), and the common lounge for everything else.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
Message-ID: <OF463ECBF4.84389A2C-ONCA256B95.001C6AA3@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

"n2sami" replied:
>david.d.jaques-watson supposes, "4. Banned from 'Net access by the
>Illuminati;"
>
>Maybe the I________i are just preventing you from receiving G_______
>copious _____ posts filled with ________ ___________ you are not
>prepared to ____.
>
>
>---_w_a_r__---

Well that's strange, I only appear to have received half your message...

;-)  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <OF7C3A3904.BA8B0762-ONCA256B95.001D1920@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Mike West wrote:
>>      One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star
>> Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was
>> faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.
>
>This is a great point.  It never really dawned on me, but you are
>absolutely correct!  I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an
>incredible accomplishment in its own right.

OK, I'll give a real reply to a post, now.

From memory, the Darrians know a *lot* about stars and their life cycles. 
They've studied them extensively, both just prior to, and certainly after, 
the Maghiz.

They found a star that was just about to flare, set up a fake demo, then 
claimed success once the star flared (making sure the Zhos had a ringside 
seat).

My bet is that it occurred somewhere in Foreven.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408033711.7417D27A19@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020407222519.00a4ddf0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 19:35:36 -0700, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> 
wrote:

> >One word. F*#&ing officers.
> >Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
> >officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
> >enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
> >interview on the DVD).
>
>OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's
>all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window
>and was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

That, and the first encounter was in about the worst possible 
location.  The Marines were in a confined space, surrounded by the enemy, 
most of them unarmed because of the risk of damage to the facility, and the 
second guy to buy it had all the ammo for the squad.  I don't care how good 
your CO is, you're going to take HEAVY casualties getting out of a 
clusterfuck like that.

There's also speculation/evidence in the supporting material that 
Weyland-Yutani deliberately picked a unit with a green officer (easier for 
the Company man on the spot to influence), perhaps even arranging for the 
previous Lt. to have an accident before the mission.  If you're gonna blame 
anyone, blame the suits.  :/


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>> Say what??? What's Oosik??
>
>A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
>bone from a walrus penis.  See
>http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html

For another poem about this wondrous item of nature, see BioGraffiti: A
Natural Selection by John M. Burns.  Oh, what the hell, it's short:

The Baculum

An inarticulate lucky stiff between
Paired spongy corpora casanova,
The baculum (or penis bone) of mammals
Lends firm support to a hard job.

Present in all insectivores,
Bats, rodents, carnivores,
And most primates (but not man),
It comes in many shapes.

That of the walrus (winner of a grand prix)
Is very like a warped baseball bat
Some two feet long. As one old walrus put it,
"Speak softly and carry a big stick".

Found at:

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Facility/4118/misc/biograffiti.htm
l

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:13:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:13:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407233535.0201a0f0@mail.qrc.com>
References: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020407233535.0201a0f0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <19221143037.20020408151732@greimann.de>

> Star Trigger to be able to take credit for causing it.  IMHO, this is the 
> rough equivalent of claiming to have an Earthquake Projector, and "proving" 
> this claim by predicting a significant and unexpected earthquake well in 
> advance.

Now this is an interesting concept for a future James Bond Film:

The  enemy only pretending to have a doomsday weapon, and JB searching
the  earth in vain, always thinking he is too late only to find out in
the end that he has been tricked...



-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon:

>Ever wonder why the naval units don't have pickets, reconnaissance,
>minesweepers, etc?  No hospital ship, either.  I guess the Marines would
>have nowhere to evac to if they're wounded.

I figure all the naval support units like pickets and minesweepers (mines 
in space??) are provided by the fleet that the Marine transports are 
attached to.

Field hospitals and supplies will be Marine units that are landed 
separately, without all that jump capsule stuff.  Higher echelon support 
will partly be shipboard, I suppose.  Hospital ships probably exist, for 
instance.

But where are all the mortar sections, comm sections, armorers, ammo 
transport units, company- and battalion-level support weapons like HMGs and 
air defense and antiarmor weapons that you never see the TO&Es?  And the 
S-1, S-2, S-3, and S-4 staff billets?

I could devise a few such TO&Es by simply copying some units from WW2 to 
present times and changing a detail here or there.  Seems boring, but if 
people here request it I'll try to post a few.  Prepare to see my really 
big squads with lots of automatic weapons.  :->

I have no idea what the GT material is on this, and have no intention to 
write up anything compatible with it.  The system is too incompatible with 
prior versions for me to invest that much money in them.  Although I do 
keep meaning to shop for a few of the books, if they work as source books 
for CT/MT.  'First In" seems to be very popular, for instance.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Sci Fi Books that are Ob Trav
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1791D@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

I know I am a tad late in this thread but it occurred to be the other day
that a very Ob Trav type series of books were the Amtrak Wars by Patrick
Tilley. Hi Tech underground civilisation fighting mad max esq mutated
barbarians. The descriptions of the underground settlements seem very trav,
monorails, life support levels, you name it. 

I'm re-reading them now. I liked them as a teenager and, ten years later,
they're still pretty good. 

In fact it would make a great GURPS sourcebook. Doug Berry come on down. 
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Railguns
In-Reply-To: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <3CB1AEF9.30344.7D45D12@localhost>

Hi all!

Earlier discussion about railguns (vs. coilguns) got me curious, so I 
went and found this site:

<http://www.railgun.org/>

Check it out!  They've got a lot of cool stuff -- all the formulas for the 
more gearheaded, pics of the assembly process, how they chose 
what projectile to use, etc. etc.  

-- Rachel 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was
inexperienced, that's all.  All he knew was the book,
and suddenly the book went out the window 
as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and
went back to get Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to
slow the enemy down.  In my view, those are the kind
of things that posthumous decorations are given out
for.
END QUOTE

I agree that he did the right thing at the end but he
was incredibly incompetent in the first encounter with
the aliens. I suspect he was chosen for the mission
because of his inexperiance, and or compliance to the
company. After all the actual grunts where a seasoned
combat hardened bunch of veterens, who I think where
probably the equivalent to the marine force recon. Why
would someone who has only ever had one actual mission
be put in charge of such a group? And he froze in a
combat situation endangering the lives of his men! And
the aliens wheren't that tough, notice how the people
who had guns survived (Drake was killed by friendly
fire). All the people with wimpy 'flame units' died.
It was a sever tactical error to send troops into an
area with no effective means of fighting. And James
Cameron was inspired by his brothers time in vietnam.
However I still like Gorman for his actions at the end
of the film.

ObTrav: Do the average grunts still bitch about thier
officers? Has officer - enlisted sophont relationship
improved or got worse?

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408040658.0326ba80@pop.wizard.net>

James Ramsay regarding Colonial Marines in the film 'Aliens':
>company. After all the actual grunts where a seasoned
>combat hardened bunch of veterens, who I think where
>probably the equivalent to the marine force recon.

No, not even close to Force Recon.  Maybe more like draftee Marines early 
in WW2 minus the commitment to a cause, and with no experience.  If I'm in 
a generous mood.  I'll take an equal number of former Force Recon who 
haven't worn a uniform in twenty years or more against that useless bunch 
of physically fit young men and women any time.

Perhaps they were supposed to be combat veterans, but most of them only 
acted like the Hollywood director's idea of that.  And their organization 
and doctrine didn't reflect any type of combat experience.  In short, they 
struck me as a bunch of high school football jocks who think they're, um 
kings of the world based on zero available evidence, and therefore 
qualified to fight a war.

After the first 'Alien' movie, abandon all notions of realism.

My ObTrav is to be very careful running military units in Traveller 
campaigns, it isn't easy being believable if you have players with more 
direct military knowledge than the referee.  Not that those players will 
want complete realism either.  They'll want fun and adventure.  But they 
still need to keep their belief suspenders from snapping.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 02:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon Apr  8 01:22:02 2002
Subject: TOE was RE: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEOKEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I did a TOE for a TL13 Terran Marine Unit in MT. Most of the vehicles are on
my site though I have never posted the TOE itself. I gave it recon, kitchen,
medivac, mobile hospital etc. My proudest achievement was designing (in MT)
a mobile Grav Field Kitchen. I still have the organisation lying around
somewhere.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 03:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr  8 02:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408040658.0326ba80@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <004b01c1dedd$23466840$2f9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Perhaps they were supposed to be combat veterans, but most of them only
> acted like the Hollywood director's idea of that.  And their organization
> and doctrine didn't reflect any type of combat experience.  In short, they
> struck me as a bunch of high school football jocks who think they're, um
> kings of the world based on zero available evidence, and therefore
> qualified to fight a war.
>

They were, I think, supposed to be experienced, but only at "correcting"
colonists who were behaving in naughty ways. (mainly by showing up and
acting like badasses). Dozens of soft missions made them complacent and
overconfident.

But yeah, the unit suffered from Hollywooditis. Who issues a support weapon
you have to use standing up?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 03:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr  8 02:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005c01c1dedd$c64fecf0$2f9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> ObTrav: Do the average grunts still bitch about thier
> officers? Has officer - enlisted sophont relationship
> improved or got worse?
>
>
My father told me last night (from his time in the Air Force).. he and a
bunch of other enlisteds were hurrying somewhere in a corridor. They spied
an officer at the last second, and two of them saluted. The officer shouted
at them. So on the way back they ALL saluted, to keep the mean officer
happy. So he shouted at them some more "FOR SALUTING IN A CORRIDOR!!!!!"

They went away cursing both officers and corridors, not very much the wiser.

Another time he spied someone in an unfamiliar dress uniform. Could have
been Russian for all he knew, but he saluted to be on the safe side. The
Canadian corporal smiled wryly and went on his way....


From shadow@krypton.scn.rain.com  Mon Apr  8 03:07:42 2002
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Subject: Re: [TML] helium-3
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
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Date: Mon Apr  8 08:08:13 2002
X-Original-Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 23:29:02 PST

In mail you write:

> I keep looking at the p-H3 reaction, and although it has a 
> high hurdle for starting, it yields more energy per unit 
> fuel, and is aneutronic.
>
> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.
>
> It looks like you could build a much smaller H3 fusion 
> reactor, not just from the standpoint of overall yield per 
> unit fuel, but also because no energy would be wasted 
> accelerating neutrons (70% of the D-T cycle is neutron 
> energy), and there would be no need to have neutron 
> shielding.  I can almost see the argument that the only way 
> to get a "tabletop" fusion reactor would be to run it on H3.

Whoa!

H3 is *tritium*. He3 is Helium-3.

*Big* difference.

> Looking for a handwave for H3 reactors...

It's gonna be *expensive*. Because the fuel is rare and a *lot* harder
to store than liquid hydrogen.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:09:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:09:34 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <20020403012608.08423dc6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20407.233050.7S9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
>> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
>> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.
>
> Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
> surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).

Yeah, it merely requires processing *tonnes* of regolith for *grams* of
He3.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:10:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:10:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Sleeping In Starports, without Jimmy Hoffa
In-Reply-To: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20408.001328.7c5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the 
> price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial 
> cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very 
> much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be 
> possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for 
> mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the 
> fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator 
> runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to 
> ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of 
> the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.  The 
> same device could also be used in recycling to return 
> anything to its component atoms.

Yep.

> So, is that how the recycler works on the ship?  Is there 
> some plasma separator in there, and it's all reduced to 
> whatever the ship's environmental controls are interested 
> in?  Dump the other ions into space?

No, that's a bit *too* thorough. It takes a lot of effort to build
complex organics. You wouldn't run them thru that sort of system.
*Inorganic* waste, maybe.

Unless you've got nanotech, or similar "magic" level tech, you want to
leave organic molecules intact unless you've got a *good* reason to
break them down that far.

Life-support level air and water recycling is done easily without going
*that* far.

> Nice place for the Jimmy Hoffas of the future...

The excess carbon in the logs will require a *lot* of explanation.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20408.003625.1N7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The esteemed Leonard Erickson wrote, including quotes from Texas Redshift:
>> > For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't 
> get
>> > in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
>> > send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
>> > do the ship much good, however.
>>
>>Also, it can't be *too* hard. there will be lots of situations when the
>>crew wants to get inside *fast*, or they may be a bit "damaged" or
>>"incapacitated". Or both.
>>
>>Entry should be merely difficult enough to dissaude *amatuers*. Pros
>>will get in anyway, so the extra efforts isn't really justifiable in
>>terms of cost/benefit.
> I agree but only a little bit.  The penalty when you do lose a ship (and 
> probably some lives at the same time) is very large.  Typically hundreds of 
> millions.  Yes, it is a touchstone of security that no security system is 
> perfect, and you shouldn't spend excess effort on attempting to perfect 
> your security beyond a point that is appropriate to your degree of risk and 
> the cost if security fails.  Even one fat trader or passenger liner lost is 
> going to drive everyone's insurance rates through the roof and may risk 
> putting the insurer financially on the ropes.

Not necessarily.

One out of how many? That's the key there.

> If nobody else does, then 
> insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security 
> measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time 
> and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.

You are considering *installation* costs. I'm talking about the costs
in time wasted due to "overly stringent" security getting in the way.

Oil tankers are expensive too. So are modern freighters. And *safety*
gear on them that "gets in the way" is routinely bypassed by crews,
never mind "security" gear.

> Oh, I'm not sure that the phrase "kill switches" was supposed to mean 
> mantrap defenses.  I think it may have meant disabling critical ship's 
> systems.  Perhaps a triphammer smashes the zuchai crystals.  <G>

I didn't think it did. I know what a kill switch is. I brought up
lethal defenses because they have been discussed in the past, and would
have popped up any minute anyway.

And yes, the TU isn't the US. Some places are less forgiving, some are
more. Which laws apply to a ship in port could get very important.

>>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
>>someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
>>attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...

> I see we've met some of the same player characters.  :->

Alas, I understand that there have actually been a couple of real world
cases of this already. And it's been a standard dodge in fiction for
*at least* 50 years.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:13:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:13:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204030529.g335TAO02739@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard writes:

> But, as you say in a later post, the energy of forces might seem
> stronger under inertial suppression. Well, is that really the
> case? A change in gravity should produce no difference, as
> masses fall at the same speed, all other things being equal.
> If I drop a feather in a vacuum, and a drop a rock in a
> vacuum, they should both fall at the same speed. So I don't
> think that changing inertia should effect how an object behaves
> with respect to the gravitational force. What about the weak,
> strong, and EM forces?

Actually, consider that rock and feather in a vacuum *and* with zero
inertia. Let go and they undergo "infinite" acceleration as gravity
takes effect, and zero time later infinite *deceleration* as they hit
the bottom of the tube.

>> Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
>> things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects. 
>
> In what way?

Chemical reaction rates depend strongly on the mass of the atoms. Atoms
with similar properties (same column in the periodic table) react at
rates that are strongly connected with their mass differences. 

So the rates might increase dramaticly.

Molecular collisions in air would result in the molecules stopping,
rather than rebounding. So the opposing portions of their vectors would
cancel out. Add in the effects of gravity, and all the air molecules
would be in a thin layer near the floor. 

Thermal effects on the gases get weird too.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

>> But assuming that you can live thru the process, then it'd be best to
>> ignore all the effects at the sub-molar level (ie molecular and lower).
>
> Can't do this.

Then you're dead. Too many of the forces at those levels *do* depend on
inertia. Lowering inertia raises the *effective* force.

As an example, the reason that water doesn't boil at around -150 F is
because of Van der waals forces. Compare the boiling points of hydrogen
oxide, hydrogen sulfide, and so on down that column in the periodic
table. All of them *but* H2O have very low boiling points. 

Lowering the inertia of the molecules will have the effect of adding
similar forces. Which will change the physical and chemical properties
of compounds *drastically*. 
  
>> This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
>> work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
>> viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.
>
> Except that your heart would also be of a lower apparent mass.

What's *that* got to do with it? The pumping forces are due to
contraction of the muscle fibers. The mass of the heart has little
relevance there. The only effect it'd have (to the first order, anyway)
is making it *easier* to contract. 

> Instead of thinking of a normal pool ball hitting a styrofoam ball,
> think of one styrofoam ball hitting another one. On the molecular
> scale, I'm guessing that this would be more akin to what would be
> happening. -Jim

Nope. Because you lose the rebound. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:15:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:15:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215009.0283aec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20408.010158.0K9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson, in replying to JimV said:
>
>>BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
>>higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
>>artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
>>playing "grav pong" with hijackers.
> Sounds like we see it the same way.  Although +6 gees to -6 gees in less 
> than one second should be sufficient grav pong to deal with most hijackers.
>
> I've always wondered at the canonical lack of ships capable of 
> accelerations far greater than 6 gees.  We subject astronauts and fighter 
> pilots to accelerations between 4 and 6 gees, so you'd think that high 
> performance military aircraft would be capable of accelerating many gees 
> faster than their internal grav compensation can handle.  They accelerate 
> at 10 gees, have 6 gees of that compensated, and a "felt acceleration" of 4 
> gees.

Actually, fighter pilots are limited by the fact that they *have* to
experience gees in a "head to feet" direction. If you can take the
acceleration "flat on your back", the limt is between 15 and 18 gees.
That's the point at which you can't excercise fine muscle control.

3 gees can be handled "indefinitely" (hours, at least). 

This is only practical for "fighter" type ships. And the power & fuel
consumption is going to be high. But due to the fact that turns have to
be made by changing the direction the "mainn drive" points, they'll
*always* be taking all but a tiny fraction of the accel in the same
direction.

It only takes a fraction of a g to flip a ship end for end in space.
It's changing the direction it is *traveling* that takes the main
drive. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:16:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <F149PnvEZZ91Lhdms4Q000022be@hotmail.com>

From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>

     "Actually, one beam was from a GG moon, the other from Darrian itself."


Mr. West,

     You are correct, sir.  My apologies for "bum doping" the List.

     "The original (non-working Star Trigger) didn't know anything about the 
meson interference project.  They thought the stellar probe itself caused 
the flares.  Therefore, the original operation of the Star Trigger would 
only require a single ship."

     Yes, a single ship that would deliver a non-working device.

     "This is not stated, and there is at least one hint that they don't.  I 
got the impression that once the proper convergence was achieved, it was 
pretty much over.  The wait was for the effects to reach you."

     Perhaps the beams needn't be held on location for hours, but other 
portions of the weapon do require time.  How much time does it take for the 
probe to release enough tungsten into the star for the Trigger to work?  How 
far off must the projector vessels be in order to escape?Assuming a 
seperation between Darrian and Tanis of 1 AU, it would take a meson beam ~8 
minutes to cover that distance.  Put the second projector on a GG moon at a 
Jupiter distance and the time jumps to ~45 minutes.  Now throw in comm times 
between vessels and aiming attempts, you'll need both to ensure you get the 
proper angle of interference.
     Even parking both projector vessels at the star's 100D limit, so they 
can escape, means that beam travel distance, comm lag, and subsequent aiming 
attempts are all going to take time.  Maybe not hours, but certainly not 
minutes.

     "While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I 
don't see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the 
trick is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it."

     Yes, seeding the star with enough tungsten and aiming correctly will 
take time.  Perhaps the Darrians use multiple probes to increase their 
chances?

     "The reason the Sword Worlds never received a flare was for two 
reasons: 1) They are too close..."

     Yes, the "collateral" damage to both Darrian and Imperial space I 
mentioned.

     "2) The Star Trigger did not become operational until after the Fifth 
FW.  After the FFW, the Sword Worlds were, quite frankly, not much of a 
threat to the Darrians."

     You missed the point of the fake Star Trigger and the real story behind 
the faked demostration.  Everyone, INCLUDING THE DARRIANS, thought it 
worked!  It had to be this way so that Zho mind readers would verify it's 
both existence and operability.  So, for deterrent purposes, the Star 
Trigger, whether working or not, was deployed, IIRC, immediately after the 
2nd FW.  Plenty of time for a Confederacy tussling with the Sword Worlds 
over the Entropic Cluster to think about using it.  Remember, they thought 
it worked!
     The "real" reason the Star Trigger wasn't used during all those 
centuries is that weapons of mass destruction aren't, except in very rare 
cases, used to ensure you'll WIN a war.  They're used to ensure that the 
other fellow LOSES the war.  This is a important distinction.  The Star 
Trigger and MAD, on which it is based, is a suicide pact; "You push us too 
far and we'll make sure we all die, you included."
     The Trigger can be used defensively rather easily, by employing it you 
ensure that the power about to conquer you is left with nothing worth 
conquering.  Using the Trigger offensively, like nukes, is far tougher.  
Sure we can all spin out scenario after scenario in which nukes win the day, 
but they would all depend on very specific, out of the ordinary, 
prerequisites.

     "While you can do whatever you want IYTU, in the OTU the Star Trigger 
does work."

     Yes, as you pointed out it works after the 5th FW.  However, it was 
deployed for far longer than that.

     "I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an incredible 
accomplishment in its own right."

     Keeping the secret that the Trigger demonstration was a fake was the 
really incrediable accomplishment.  The fakers had to fool both the 
observers from the other powers AND their own people utterly and completely. 
  Why didn't the secret never leak out?  Mass suicide among the project 
staff over "creating" so horrible a weapon?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:17:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:17:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 0:22, laning wrote:

> Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units
> in Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no
> provision whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up
> against the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win
> because of their balanced organization and integral combat and
> logistical support, despite their major technological disadvantage.

I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were 
based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped 
their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its 
subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its 
companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it 
belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles, 
field ovens, etc.

I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of 
the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be 
used to supply and support its troops.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:18:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:18:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <20020408044045.02AAD279F0@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB0F014.30539.36165A5@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB236E1.7282.680449@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 23:40, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I had a problem with a 12 gauge when I was a kid. <g> I didn't even
> notice there was recoil with a .22 rifle.

I thought 12 gauges were fine - they push rather than kick and come 
with nice rubber butt pads. Not like No.1 Lee-Enfields with their solid 
brass butt plate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:19:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:19:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408075125.009ec5e0@mindspring.com>

At 04:58 PM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>ObTrav: Do the average grunts still bitch about thier
>officers? Has officer - enlisted sophont relationship
>improved or got worse?

Soldiers still bitch about everything.  It is their one right.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:20:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:20:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>

At 02:28 AM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>John Kwon:
>
>>Ever wonder why the naval units don't have pickets, reconnaissance,
>>minesweepers, etc?  No hospital ship, either.  I guess the Marines would
>>have nowhere to evac to if they're wounded.
>
>I figure all the naval support units like pickets and minesweepers (mines 
>in space??) are provided by the fleet that the Marine transports are 
>attached to.
>
>Field hospitals and supplies will be Marine units that are landed 
>separately, without all that jump capsule stuff.  Higher echelon support 
>will partly be shipboard, I suppose.  Hospital ships probably exist, for 
>instance.
>
>But where are all the mortar sections, comm sections, armorers, ammo 
>transport units, company- and battalion-level support weapons like HMGs 
>and air defense and antiarmor weapons that you never see the TO&Es?  And 
>the S-1, S-2, S-3, and S-4 staff billets?
>
>I could devise a few such TO&Es by simply copying some units from WW2 to 
>present times and changing a detail here or there.  Seems boring, but if 
>people here request it I'll try to post a few.  Prepare to see my really 
>big squads with lots of automatic weapons.  :->
>
>I have no idea what the GT material is on this, and have no intention to 
>write up anything compatible with it.  The system is too incompatible with 
>prior versions for me to invest that much money in them.  Although I do 
>keep meaning to shop for a few of the books, if they work as source books 
>for CT/MT.  'First In" seems to be very popular, for instance.

GT Ground Forces has complete brigade and regiment TO&Es for the Unified 
Armies of the Imperium and the Imperial Marine Force.  I spent most of my 
time developing the support units, and much of the Operations chapter is 
dedicated to issues of supply and support.

The Standard Issue chapter has the 30,000dton Keith-class brigade 
transport, along with its six Nakerth-class landers.. 1,200 tons each, 
carrying a full combat battalion to a world's surface. There is also the 
Caen-class dropship, the standard 1,200 transport for the Imperial Marines.

Among the vehicles included are a recovery sled, a heavy G-Carrier, and an 
engineering sled.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Sleeping In Starports, without Jimmy Hoffa
Message-ID: <200204081516.DPW00037@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>
>The excess carbon in the logs will require a *lot* of 
>explanation.
>

I used to play in a T campaign where a silicon-based alien 
species referred to us as "carbon-units".  The referee also
used to joke that the aliens knew they hit a ship with
people in it, because they used spectography to look for 
the carbon line when your ship was vaporized.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <20407.233050.7S9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204081031040.23520-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
> > surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).
> 
> Yeah, it merely requires processing *tonnes* of regolith for *grams* of
> He3.

Transhuman Space also says that ratio is good enough.
And it says you can get He3 more easily from gas giants.  In that future
history, the US put a colony in Saturn's orbit solely for that purpose.
Since most Traveller starships are capable of scooping gas giants anyway,
why not go by that route?

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam Draper)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20020408033711.7417D27A19@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGMEANCFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>

I was reading an article recently by a US Army surgeon who served in Vietnam
(Martin Fackler).  He found that the 7.62x39 would penetrate 29 inches of
ballistic gelatin, the 5.56x45 (M193) penetrates 13+ inches, and the 7.62x51
penetrates 25 inches (all FMJ).  Although the 7.62x39 had the deepest
penetration, it produced the least devestating wound.  The bullet
penetrated, turned around, and then exited.  He says, from his experience in
Vietnam, the "average uncomplicated thigh wound was about what one would
expect from a low-powered handgun: a small, punctate entrance and exit wound
with minimal intervening muscle disruption."  The US 7.62x51 produced an
uncomplicated wound profile like the 7.26x39.  The 5.56 produced a pretty
devestating wound, because the bullet would, as it yawed, split in half,
with the base fragmenting into a number of smaller projectiles.  This
reduced penetration, but made a big hole (up to 5" in diameter).  Velocity
had to be at least 2700 fps for the bullet to fragment (muzzle velocity with
a M16 is like 3200+), and no fragmentation took place until the bullet had
penetrated 4-5" of tissue.

Interestingly, German 7.62x51 bullets have a thinner jacket, and that round
would fragment like the 5.56.

I have read before that 5.56 soft points have pathetic penetration in
tissue, but 308 caliber soft points certainly get good penetration and
produce enormous wounds.  Bullet construction seems to be critical in
producing wounds; that seems to be largely ignored in Traveller other than
HE and DS rounds.

I wonder, does the Imperium follow the Geneva convention regarding FMJ
rounds?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 10:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 09:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS War what is it good for, absolutely nothing (apart f rom the Industrial Military complex)
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17918@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>; from Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:11:41AM +1000
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17918@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020408100937.B1314@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:11:41AM +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
>
> Especially when you have western industrial powers that are
> unwilling to become involved in 'Nation Building' and actually step
> in and say 'hey man, killing your own people is wrong'.

The last time nations took a wholesale interest in one another's
affairs, Europe was nearly destroyed in the wars of religion.  The
state system evolved in order to prevent that kind of mass death and
destruction.  The problem now is that states are so large: if the
Grand Duchy of Potlork--consisting of the Grand Duke, his staff,
10,000 citizens and a herd of cattle--goes on a genocidal rampage, its
fairly easy to escape to neighbouring Ruritania.  If the EU does, it's
somewhat more complicated, should one live in, e.g., Arras.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their
pockets for new vocabulary.                     --James D. Nicoll

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 10:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Mon Apr  8 09:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] E-mail still down -- Help Needed
Message-ID: <l03010d0bb8d770ec2013@[206.224.92.67]>

First, my GDWGames@aol.com account is still in the doldrums -- I have a new
computer (well, new to me -- it is an order of magnitude advance over my
old one, but still a used machine) through the courtesy of Geoff MacDonald,
who gave me a very good deal. I'm still struggling with modem issues,
however, so rejuvenatation of the old address will take a while.

A second point:

Will anyone who owns one of the following old GDW Boardgames please get in
touch with me.

	1941
	1942!
	Battle of Agincourt 1415 AD
	Battle of Lobositz
	Battle of Prague
	Battle of Raphia 217 BC

I'll explain in e-mail.



Loren Wiseman
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/
     SJ Games
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 10:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 09:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204081031040.23520-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018283921.6838.ajackson@ping>

Gregory Carl Kettler writes:
> On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > > Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
> > > surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).
> > 
> > Yeah, it merely requires processing *tonnes* of regolith for *grams* of
> > He3.
> 
> Transhuman Space also says that ratio is good enough.

Mostly because TS uses realistic fuel requirements for fusion.  3He is still
200 million dollars per ton in TS.  Of course, TS doesn't have contragravity
and thruster plates, which means getting stuff out of saturn is a challenge.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 11:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 10:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe@aol.com>

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In a message dated 08/04/02 03:39:21 GMT Daylight Time, 
gridlore@mindspring.com writes:


> >One word. F*#&ing officers.
> >Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
> >officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
> >enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
> >interview on the DVD).
> 
> OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's 
> all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window 
> as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.
> 
> Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get 
> Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.  In my view, those 
> 
> are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.
> 

What about the Sergeant (Apone?) - I thought the role of an NCO was to stop 
the officers messing everything up? Clearly he has more experience than 
Gorman and yet he's quite happy to lead his troops into an unknown 
environment against an unknown force AND he gives all the ammo to one man.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 08/04/02 03:39:21 GMT Daylight Time, gridlore@mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;One word. F*#&amp;ing officers.<BR>
&gt;Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the<BR>
&gt;officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to<BR>
&gt;enter direct combat (It says so in the directors<BR>
&gt;interview on the DVD).<BR>
<BR>
OK, that's not what I got at *all*&nbsp; Gorman was inexperienced, that's <BR>
all.&nbsp; All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window <BR>
as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.<BR>
<BR>
Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get <BR>
Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.&nbsp; In my view, those <BR>
are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
What about the Sergeant (Apone?) - I thought the role of an NCO was to stop the officers messing everything up? Clearly he has more experience than Gorman and yet he's quite happy to lead his troops into an unknown environment against an unknown force AND he gives all the ammo to one man.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 11:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 10:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <20408.003625.1N7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408123225.02823ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Leonard Erickson discusses the antihijacker issue:
> > If nobody else does, then
> > insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security
> > measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time
> > and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.
>
>You are considering *installation* costs. I'm talking about the costs
>in time wasted due to "overly stringent" security getting in the way.
>
>Oil tankers are expensive too. So are modern freighters. And *safety*
>gear on them that "gets in the way" is routinely bypassed by crews,
>never mind "security" gear.

I wholeheartedly agree that personnel will tend to ignore things that are 
inconvenient.  That's partly why insurers and lenders and regulators at 
starports will be the ones insisting on enforcement through certifications 
and inspections.  They won't expect ship crews to take care of it on their own.

I think the analogy with ocean-going vessels in our own world is useful, 
but not a complete analogy.  I think tankers and freighters mostly rely for 
their safety on the fact that any hijacker has an extremely difficult time 
fencing the rather unique and obvious stolen property.  As well as a 
communication network that is practically instantaneous around the globe 
and military patrols being able to reach the vessel by aircraft at speeds 
at least an order of magnitude faster than the vessel can travel.


> > Oh, I'm not sure that the phrase "kill switches" was supposed to mean
> > mantrap defenses.  I think it may have meant disabling critical ship's
> > systems.  Perhaps a triphammer smashes the zuchai crystals.  <G>
>
>I didn't think it did. I know what a kill switch is. I brought up
>lethal defenses because they have been discussed in the past, and would
>have popped up any minute anyway.
>
>And yes, the TU isn't the US. Some places are less forgiving, some are
>more. Which laws apply to a ship in port could get very important.
>
> >>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
> >>someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
> >>attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...
>
> > I see we've met some of the same player characters.  :->
>
>Alas, I understand that there have actually been a couple of real world
>cases of this already. And it's been a standard dodge in fiction for
>*at least* 50 years.

Sounds like our overall positions are not that far apart after all.  My 
vision of antihijacking measures is moderated and mitigated by all the 
things you've pointed out.  I do believe that captain and crew should have 
very quick access in case of emergency, and that daily activities should be 
only slightly impacted or not impacted at all, if possible.  Overrides 
should be available in multiple ways.  If this leaves loopholes that can be 
exploited by a determined, knowledgable, and clever foe then that risk is 
recompensed by all the honest passengers and crew who are saved from being 
victims of dangerously rigid security systems.  But, within those 
restrictions, a few hundred years of big business should be able to work 
out a lot of safeguards that are very effective.  Starship owners willing 
to seek the right vendors, sign enough waivers, or maybe go outside the 
astrographical borders under the watchful eyes of various regulators to set 
up their security will still be able to do perhaps ill-advised things.  And 
then you have your crews who will disable or circumvent safeguards despite 
all the doublechecks  and safety inspections.  I imagine skilled hijackers 
will look for telltales of such ships, avoid the dangerous ones and seek 
the easier marks.

I cannot honestly say that any group of players I'm familiar with has shown 
the planning, forethought, and teamwork necessary to get away with 
hijacking a Traveller ship using what I consider standard antihijacking 
measures and more than a dozen parsecs inside Imperial borders.  I can also 
honestly say that I can envision many ways in which a group of players 
_could_ succeed if only they didn't insist on being such "cowboys".

So, IMTU hijacking can and does happen, particularly near or outside the 
borders of the major interstellar polities.  But players would be foolish 
to try it themselves.  And the standard shipboard safeguards are designed 
to keep crews composed of people like my players from getting themselves or 
others inadvertently killed.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Who wants an atom laser?
Message-ID: <DAV60c7vtdFq7ImxUkM000015b1@hotmail.com>

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/20mar_newmatter.htm

And how useful would one be in space combat?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:14:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:14:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Who wants an atom laser?
In-Reply-To: <DAV60c7vtdFq7ImxUkM000015b1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018289637.113.ajackson@ping>

Texas Redshift writes:
> http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/20mar_newmatter.htm
> 
> And how useful would one be in space combat?

Since they require working at the temperature of a bose-einstein condensate,
not very; the beam would move incredibly slowly, and have a very low energy
content.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGMEANCFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408033711.7417D27A19@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408135946.02824dd0@pop.wizard.net>

At 09:47 AM 4/8/02 -0600, you wrote:
>I was reading an article recently by a US Army surgeon who served in Vietnam
>(Martin Fackler).  He found that the 7.62x39 would penetrate 29 inches of
>ballistic gelatin, the 5.56x45 (M193) penetrates 13+ inches, and the 7.62x51
>penetrates 25 inches (all FMJ).  Although the 7.62x39 had the deepest
>penetration, it produced the least devestating wound.  The bullet
>penetrated, turned around, and then exited.  He says, from his experience in
>Vietnam, the "average uncomplicated thigh wound was about what one would
>expect from a low-powered handgun: a small, punctate entrance and exit wound
>with minimal intervening muscle disruption."  The US 7.62x51 produced an
>uncomplicated wound profile like the 7.26x39.  The 5.56 produced a pretty
>devestating wound, because the bullet would, as it yawed, split in half,
>with the base fragmenting into a number of smaller projectiles.  This
>reduced penetration, but made a big hole (up to 5" in diameter).  Velocity
>had to be at least 2700 fps for the bullet to fragment (muzzle velocity with
>a M16 is like 3200+), and no fragmentation took place until the bullet had
>penetrated 4-5" of tissue.

With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to 
the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300 
feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the 
government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting.

I did all my reading on this topic over a dozen years ago, but I seem to 
recall that there has been plenty of reliable material published that 
debunked the notion of the magical differences causing the 5.56 to tumble, 
etc. when no other bullets were able to achieve the same effect.  I said 
that very poorly.  What I mean is that government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam 
had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other 
assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.  Including poorer 
accuracy.  When combat took place at very limited range, this was less of a 
problem.  Plus the fact that most combatants on either side had a tendency 
to cease fighting when they received more than a superficial wound, unless 
they were heroes or tactical circumstances were desperate.  Sort of 
analagous to playing touch football instead of normal football.  You don't 
have to tackle someone to bring them down, just touch them with both hands 
and they're required to stop running and the play is over.  Contrary to the 
popular image, lots of infantry combat in Viet Nam took place at pretty 
long range.  A sort of contest of wimps, I guess, between the fairly 
lightweight and unstable 5.56 and the more substantial but lower speed 7.62x39.

Let us please leave as a separate thread the discussion of whether aimed 
rifle fire is any different in battlefield effectiveness from unaimed 
fire.  Except to note that _if_ you are an unmodified adherent of the 
theory popular among many experts that there is no difference, then by 
corollary it shouldn't matter whether the rifle used is accurate or 
not.  Continuing to look at that corollary, if two different rifles have 
the same range, inflict equivalent damage on the human body at that range, 
and penetrate cover and concealment equally, then accuracy won't make a 
significant difference in the vast majority of fights at long range.

Please let us not debate the validity of that theory (again) here.  And 
certainly don't ask _me_ to defend that theory, regardless of how many 
people with more knowledge than I have may argue convincingly in its 
favor.  But if you wish to comment on the corollaries I propose above, then 
I think that is virgin territory for us to debate.

>Interestingly, German 7.62x51 bullets have a thinner jacket, and that round
>would fragment like the 5.56.
>
>I have read before that 5.56 soft points have pathetic penetration in
>tissue, but 308 caliber soft points certainly get good penetration and
>produce enormous wounds.  Bullet construction seems to be critical in
>producing wounds; that seems to be largely ignored in Traveller other than
>HE and DS rounds.
>
>I wonder, does the Imperium follow the Geneva convention regarding FMJ
>rounds?

This last part has put your finger on a very important point.  I'm quite 
sure the Geneva Conventions are long since defunct in Milieu 0 and onward, 
although that's just my ever-humble opinion.  ;->  And yes, projectile 
design has a _lot_ to do with ballistics, at least when talking about 
infantry or hunting weapons.

Recently, Tod Glenn seems to have made the most articulate explanations on 
the TML for why gauss weapons will be the infantry weapons of choice at 
tech levels that permit them.  The explanations include convincing reasons 
for typical gauss ammo to both penetrate armor and damage human bodies very 
well without needing a variety of fiendish projectile designs to achieve 
the intended effect.  NB that the projectile needs to be travelling at a 
velocity greater than 1,450 meters per second in order to do all 
this.  Sorry, Tod, to single you out by name but you have indeed been the 
most articulate, informative, and convincing poster on that thread and I 
believe in giving credit where it is due.  :->

Canonical gauss weapons get muzzle velocities well in excess of 1,450 m/s, 
but I am too lazy at the moment to look up the information required to 
calculate how far they will travel down range before falling below that 
important velocity.  But you don't have to be Isaac Newton to realize it's 
plenty far enough to be a useful military longarm.  And that even a long, 
skinny piece of iron travelling at say 800 m/s is something you'd rather 
have not hit you.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408144051.02823ba0@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert Boleyn responds to me on the continuing thread:
>On 8 Apr 2002 at 0:22, laning wrote:
>
> > Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units
> > in Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no
> > provision whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up
> > against the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win
> > because of their balanced organization and integral combat and
> > logistical support, despite their major technological disadvantage.
>
>I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were
>based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped
>their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its
>subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its
>companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it
>belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles,
>field ovens, etc.

The missing TO&E elements that I'm most troubled by are indirect fire 
support weapons and special weapons.  No Auto RAM grenade launchers, no 
light mortars, no heavy machine guns, no antiarmor weapons.  That sort of 
thing.  We can always at least pretend that things like field ovens are 
held by dedicated support units that are outside the battalion or regiment 
level.  I'm also troubled by the lack of staff officers and troops.  There 
is no Logistics, Intelligence, or Operations section in any of the 
battalions or regiments I can recall.  Even the Soviets and the Chinese 
haven't simplified so much that there is no Logistics staff at regimental 
level.  But the biggest problem for me is the lack of supporting arms that 
you'd expect from TL 12 and TL 14 or 15 organizations.


>I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
>the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
>used to supply and support its troops.

Yeah, it's unclear to me exactly what mission the Milieu 1100 Imperial army 
and marines are tailored to.  Fully mobilized general warfare against 
opponents like the Outworld Coalition?  Internal control and 
policing?  Border defense against pocket empires and pirates?  And just how 
much orbital supremacy do they count on achieving and maintaining?  Perhaps 
all they expect from their regiments is for them to be glorified armed 
reconnaissance sufficient to get ortillery observers to bring accurate fire 
onto important targets and then accept the surrender of local opposition 
commanders.  I am comfortable with that sort of scenario happening a lot, 
but certainly not all, of the time.  But even so, the regiments would be 
much better off as true combined arms teams, not just a bunch of mobile 
riflemen.

I'm something of a so-called grognard gamer at this point, and maybe my 
desire for more detailed TO&Es is the incipient miniatures player in me.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 13:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 12:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
 <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>

Doug Berry says:

>GT Ground Forces has complete brigade and regiment TO&Es for the Unified 
>Armies of the Imperium and the Imperial Marine Force.  I spent most of my 
>time developing the support units, and much of the Operations chapter is 
>dedicated to issues of supply and support.
>
>The Standard Issue chapter has the 30,000dton Keith-class brigade 
>transport, along with its six Nakerth-class landers.. 1,200 tons each, 
>carrying a full combat battalion to a world's surface. There is also the 
>Caen-class dropship, the standard 1,200 transport for the Imperial Marines.
>
>Among the vehicles included are a recovery sled, a heavy G-Carrier, and an 
>engineering sled.

It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and 
equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really 
good work being done there.

The Keith-class was named in honor?  Well done.  :->

If I were the Imperium, I wouldn't bother to build standard troop 
transports that carry less than a complete battalion.  Brigades or 
divisions would have logistical elements that are more forward on the 
battlefield, and most of the logistical tail on the ground would be at 
corps level or higher.  It sounds like the Keith class represents pretty 
similar thinking.  :->

I think there is a very important, but still subsidiary, role for ships 
that transport and land Imperial Marine companies and it sounds like you 
think the same way.  You're probably aware that the US considers the Marine 
battalion to be the standard chunk to embark and deploy, plus full 
supporting elements.  But there are a lot of ways in which they are poor 
analogues for Imperial Marines.

Your grav sleds make a lot of sense.  I bet you have ambulance sleds, aid 
station sleds, and field kitchen sleds too?

Finally, I've been meaning for a long time to compliment you on the sig 
about embracing fascism because the uniforms look cool.  Nice.
:->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 13:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 12:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:04:22PM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net> <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020408130651.A1686@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:04:22PM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and 
> equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really 
> good work being done there.

It's probably a better investment than anything in the CT family...

GURPS is actually pretty nice.  I'm still hoping for GURPS: 1889
(first, use every cinematic rule...).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 13:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 12:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <20020408130651.A1686@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
 <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408153253.02eaa320@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl replies to me:
>On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:04:22PM -0400, laning wrote:
> >
> > It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and
> > equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really
> > good work being done there.
>
>It's probably a better investment than anything in the CT family...

But I already own everything in the CT family.  :->

Except a couple of alien modules, dangit.  I'm getting pretty strung out 
waiting for the reprint from Far Future!

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
Message-ID: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>But I already own everything in the CT family.  :->
>
I have that, the reprints, and everything that Leading Edge 
ever printed for Phoenix Command.

And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as 
PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.

I've noticed that with skill resolution or combat resolution 
systems, you've got too simple (CT), or simply inaccurate 
with too much potatoes (GURPS), or wildly inaccurate with 
long weapon lists (Rifts), or terribly accurate but nearly 
unplayable unless you are all gearheads with 12 hours to do 
60 seconds of combat (PCCS).

Friends, there has to be something better. Something that is 
a compromise between CT and PCCS, that doesn't make gross 
errors, that's as quick to play as Shellshock, and now Doug 
will beat me with a penguin....

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam Draper)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>

laning@wizard.net wrote:

>With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to
>the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300
>feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the
>government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting."

I have not heard this before about Vietnam era ammo.  I can tell you that
current production military production Lake City and Winchester ammo is
meeting mil-spec (3200+ fps for M193 (for M16A1s) and 3000+ fps for M855
(for M16A2s)).  The army still buys M16A1 ammo for rifles still in service
with the National Guard.  It is not match ammo, but the accuracy is pretty
good.  Certainly good enough to hit a torso at 500 yards with iron sights.

>government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam
>had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other
>assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.  Including poorer
>accuracy.

This guy Facker's experiences were exactly the opposite.  Most of the
comlaints I have heard about the early M16 stems from the poor reliability,
which was a result of the Army using the wrong kind of powder.  There is
also a pretty big prejudice against the smaller caliber, which is somewhat
understandable given that few states allow hunters to use .223 on big game.
And deer do not shoot back.  But the 7.62x39 is pretty similar ballistically
to the venerable 30/30; with FMJ bullets it would hardly be a death ray
either.

That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than the
AK-47 or even the M14.

>Let us please leave as a separate thread the discussion of whether aimed
>rifle fire is any different in battlefield effectiveness from unaimed
>fire.

Like I said above, the M16 is a very accurate platform.  It will make pretty
small holes once the muzzle velocity falls below 2700 fps (about 15-200
yards).  Fortunately, like you said, most opponents will take a powder once
they are shot, no matter how severe the wound.

>Recently, Tod Glenn seems to have made the most articulate explanations on
>the TML for why gauss weapons will be the infantry weapons of choice at
>tech levels that permit them.

That is very interesting.  I have read in tests that little darts at high
velocities are remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do
little tissue damage.  But odd things happen at high velocities.  I'll see
if I can dig up my source.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:15:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:15:38 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
In-Reply-To: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D7483C.37BB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 12:59 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as
> PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.

Please enlighten me.  PCCS?
> 
> I've noticed that with skill resolution or combat resolution
> systems, you've got too simple (CT), or simply inaccurate
> with too much potatoes (GURPS), or wildly inaccurate with
> long weapon lists (Rifts), or terribly accurate but nearly
> unplayable unless you are all gearheads with 12 hours to do
> 60 seconds of combat (PCCS).

That's the GM's jog, isn't it?  Personally, I like a combat system that can
be handled with a couple of die rolls.  I use modified CT and fill in the
missing details

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
In-Reply-To: <B8D7483C.37BB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018297856.1051.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 4/8/02 12:59 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as
> > PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.
> 
> Please enlighten me.  PCCS?

I'd guess on phoenix command.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:56:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:56:04 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
Message-ID: <200204082055.DQH04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn asks
>
>Please enlighten me.  PCCS?

Phoenix Command Combat System, 4th Edition, with all 
supplements. A product of the now defunct Leading Edge Games.

>
>That's the GM's jog, isn't it?  Personally, I like a combat 
>system that can be handled with a couple of die rolls.  I 
>use modified CT and fill in the missing details
>

The rolls are quick enough for the experienced GM using PCCS -
 it's the players who choke on it if they don't like having 
to plan their actions to the Nth detail, or look through 
tables, or recalculate this and that.  It comes with a 
stripped down version as well, but if you had bought PCCS for 
the realism, the stripped version bites.

Also, the wounding and incapacitation tends to be tedious.  
You do receive points of damage, but most of the time it's so 
far off the scale you just fall down and die later.  Rifle 
rounds in particular will just *do* you.  One hit from a 
Garand in the torso and you're going to die if the medic 
doesn't stabilize you (that's if you didn't die outright).  
The odds of a graze are not as high as you would like.  And 
you *can* kill someone with a .22 pistol shot to the eye, if 
you're lucky.  Try and kill someone with a body pistol in 
CT.  It won't happen to the average character.  OTOH, you 
could be hit by two people who empty their Walther PPKs into 
you in PCCS, and if you're hit just right, you won't fall 
down until later.  Gives you that extra time to point that 
Super 90 in their direction and make them eat it.

The advanced small arms damage tables from the game came from 
Computerman, a model you may recall.  Now try that by hand 
instead of by computer.

Not like some games where you get popped with 3D6 and keep 
running.

You can take it to extremes: bullets have "time of flight", 
weapons have a maximum ballistic accuracy, a maximum aim time 
beyond which aiming does no good, some weapons come to aim 
quicker but less accurately than others, while others may be 
slower but far more sure.  Excellent shotgun rules. There are 
good rules for leadership and planning.  Extensive animal 
rules, which are quite good.  Hand to hand is not so good, 
but you'll be shot before you get that close.  Blind fire, 3-
round burst, it goes on and on.  If you're a weapon gearhead, 
this is definitely the combat system for you. My favorite 
supplement has riot control weapons (plastic coated steel 
balls and rubber baton rounds), claymore, miniguns, 
flamethrowers, etc.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:17:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:17:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408170314.024b6258@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:46 PM 4/8/2002, Sam Draper wrote:
>I have read in tests that little darts at high velocities are remarkably 
>innefective.  They just punch through and do little tissue damage.

 From what I recall reading, the 60's era Army tests with high-velocity 
flechettes in the SPIW program.  This weapon was proposed by AAI, and fired 
65 gram steel flechette at high velocity (about 4800fps).  It was supposed 
to be quite effective at energy transfer - the dart would deform on hitting 
the target, and cause massive wounding.  In the 80's, Styr's Advanced 
Combat Rifle used the same general type of projectile.  In both projects, 
difficulties in manufacturing the ammunition led to relatively low accuracy.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408170314.024b6258@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>

Derek Wildstar writes:
> At 03:46 PM 4/8/2002, Sam Draper wrote:
> >I have read in tests that little darts at high velocities are remarkably 
> >innefective.  They just punch through and do little tissue damage.
> 
>  From what I recall reading, the 60's era Army tests with high-velocity 
> flechettes in the SPIW program.  This weapon was proposed by AAI, and fired
>  65 gram steel flechette at high velocity (about 4800fps).

I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).  A 65 gram
projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 2:21 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).  A 65 gram
> projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.


I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:53:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:53:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408170314.024b6258@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175151.020da5c8@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:21 PM 4/8/2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain

Probably.  ;-)  I'm at work, so I'm working from memory ...


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175242.01e90560@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:47 PM 4/8/2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
>I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.

That would be the one - I couldn't remember it's number (all I could 
remember was the name of the program, "SPIW".  I vaguely recall that AAI 
built the initial weapon, and that one of the armories made improved 
versions - but they had trouble with the tolerances on the ammo, and 
couldn't make it reliable enough for economical manufacture, let alone 
issue - so the M16 got the nod).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:56:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:56:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175242.01e90560@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:47 PM 4/8/2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
>I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.

That would be the one - I couldn't remember it's number (all I could 
remember was the name of the program, "SPIW".  I vaguely recall that AAI 
built the initial weapon, and that one of the armories made improved 
versions - but they had trouble with the tolerances on the ammo, and 
couldn't make it reliable enough for economical manufacture, let alone 
issue - so the M16 got the nod).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 16:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 15:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175151.020da5c8@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <B8D760BD.37C1C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 2:52 PM, Derek Wildstar at wildstar@qrc.com wrote:

> At 05:21 PM 4/8/2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain
> 
> Probably.  ;-)  I'm at work, so I'm working from memory ...

Aha!  Don't have your copy of the Stevens and Ezell book (The deadliest
weapon that never was). How fortuitous that I have that little factoid
memorized.  My wife says I have the gum brain.  <g>
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 16:17:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Mon Apr  8 15:17:35 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Ship Storage
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17920@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

	Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
on the number of ship's crew and other factors?

Mikey:
I figured that Life Support for X days covers food
space/requirements/storage. Anything extra above that for life support is 1
ton = 150 man days of food/supplies (based on Belt Strike????)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 16:44:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 15:44:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408144051.02823ba0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB2C59D.18860.53D550@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 14:53, laning wrote:

> The missing TO&E elements that I'm most troubled by are indirect fire
> support weapons and special weapons.  No Auto RAM grenade launchers, no
> light mortars, no heavy machine guns, no antiarmor weapons.  That sort
> of thing.  We can always at least pretend that things like field ovens
> are held by dedicated support units that are outside the battalion or
> regiment level.  I'm also troubled by the lack of staff officers and
> troops.  There is no Logistics, Intelligence, or Operations section in
> any of the battalions or regiments I can recall.  Even the Soviets and
> the Chinese haven't simplified so much that there is no Logistics staff
> at regimental level.  But the biggest problem for me is the lack of
> supporting arms that you'd expect from TL 12 and TL 14 or 15
> organizations.

Looking at the TO they have artillery at Regimental and Battalion 
level, armed with MRLs and missile launchers. The APCs carry 6 tac 
missiles (except fire support models which have VRF gauss MGs instead) 
and thirty smaller fire & forget missiles. They also have the use of 
three SDBs for ortillery support. All this from _The Spinward Marches 
Campaign_. Even so they seem to be under equipped with indirect fire 
support (more like a Soviet tank regiment than anything else). I 
suspect (though CT didn't say much on this AFAIK) that good point-
defence systems could have a lot to do with this - you'd want to use a 
lot of direct fire and _fast_ rockets and missiles in such an 
environment.

They also have 10 Ramparts, for local aerospace superoirity missions 
and recon I presume. I'm not sure of the utility of these, to be 
honest.

SMC doesn't say what the troopies are equiped with, but Striker II 
(which has the same TO listed) tells us that they're all in TL-14 heavy 
battledress and have fusion rifles and tac missiles in each 5-man 
squad.

> >I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
> >the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
> >used to supply and support its troops.
> 
> Yeah, it's unclear to me exactly what mission the Milieu 1100 Imperial
> army and marines are tailored to.  Fully mobilized general warfare
> against opponents like the Outworld Coalition?

That would be the Army, but not all of it. I suspect you'd need the TO 
of one of the units used in the Seige of Terra to get a look at an 
Imperial 'assault' or 'tank' unit.

> Internal control and
> policing?  Border defense against pocket empires and pirates?  And just
> how much orbital supremacy do they count on achieving and maintaining?

All of it, of course.

> Perhaps all they expect from their regiments is for them to be glorified
> armed reconnaissance sufficient to get ortillery observers to bring
> accurate fire onto important targets and then accept the surrender of
> local opposition commanders.  I am comfortable with that sort of
> scenario happening a lot, but certainly not all, of the time.  But even
> so, the regiments would be much better off as true combined arms teams,
> not just a bunch of mobile riflemen.

They do have a lot of organic firepower, and a decent number of tanks. 
Again it looks more like a Soviet unit than a Western one (MR in this 
case) - lots of organic direct-fire and anti-tank support, and the 
artillery held higher up. And those tanks are really big and nasty, 
BTW.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
References: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB220F3.A0C5FF6A@premier.net>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Friends, there has to be something better. Something that is
> a compromise between CT and PCCS, that doesn't make gross
> errors, that's as quick to play as Shellshock, and now Doug
> will beat me with a penguin....
> 
Nah, he'll just hit you with a rolled-up copy of _At Close Quarters_....

http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?BITSRACQ

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
In-Reply-To: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020408193202.00e31ac0@buffnet.net>

At 03:59 PM 4/8/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>laning says
>>
>>But I already own everything in the CT family.  :->
>>
>I have that, the reprints, and everything that Leading Edge 
>ever printed for Phoenix Command.
>
>And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as 
>PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.

Two comments:

1) PCCS can be streamlined with the use of Excel
2) PCCS doesn't differentiate between someone who knows how to use a pistol
versus one who uses a shotgun


If you want to, build a simple database using excel and have a single page
that has the following entries:

Weapon
aim point
aim time
range
Stance
daylight

Die roll to hit

From that, it should be simple enough to determine what the results are...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408232954.14194.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
But yeah, the unit suffered from Hollywooditis. Who
issues a support weapon you have to use standing up?
END QUOTE

If you gave me a support weapon that had thermal
seeking rounds I would use it standing up ;) And
remember they where colonial marines. Probably didn't
get as much training as they should.

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020408233500.27629.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
>>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be
>>defeated rather easily by someone ruthless enough.
>>That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be attached to
>>the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...

> I see we've met some of the same player characters. 
:->

Alas, I understand that there have actually been a
couple of real world cases of this already. And it's
been a standard dodge in fiction for *at least* 50
years.
END QUOTE

I read in the paper that a finger print scanner that
tells if the finger is a live by scanning under the
top layers of skin has been developed. This will
bugger up all those PC's who chop of peoples fingers
;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
Message-ID: <200204082337.DQN01624@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

hal@buffnet.net  says
>Two comments:
>
>1) PCCS can be streamlined with the use of Excel
>2) PCCS doesn't differentiate between someone who knows how 
>to use a pistol versus one who uses a shotgun
>
That's up to the referee to divide gun combat skills. It 
would appear that the designers left the "roleplaying" part 
of the game in a half-baked condition.  However, I haven't 
had any trouble mapping the system to CT skills.

>If you want to, build a simple database using excel and have 
>a single page that has the following entries:
>
>Weapon
>aim point
>aim time
>range
>Stance
>daylight
>
>Die roll to hit
>
That's not the problem so much as the players being happy 
with the action sequencing and pre-planned movement (in the 
advanced rules).  Most players are uncomfortable with action 
counts to that level of detail (a much higher level of detail 
than At Close Quarters or Snapshot).  

I've written an application in Smalltalk to do the whole 
firing and damage sequence - that was easy.  But it didn't 
solve the player's dislike of millisecond level detail.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408235622.20414.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
We'll gladly take you, son.  You don't have to be a
U.S. citizen to be a U.S. Marine.  I shared a barracks
room for a year with a Lebanese Christian 
who was still a Lebanese citizen.  Contact the closest
American consulate if you're serious.  Be sure to be
able to do lots of pull ups from a dead hang and run
three miles in under say 24 minutes.

And when you get off the plane to go to the Marine
Corps Recruit Depot, just remember these two words: 
"yellow footprints".  <WEG>

Much more serious advice.  Possibly the most important
advice you will ever get in your life.  Find an MOS
that gives you the training and expertise you want to
use in your civilian career after you get it, and get
that guaranteed in writing and signed by an officer. 
Do not accept any talk no matter how reasonable or
persuasive as a substitute.  Get the MOS you want, 
guaranteed.  In writing.  In writing.

--Laning
END QUOTE

Well I would try that except my mother would kill me
;)
She worries enough about me joining the reserves here,
let alone the regular army or god forbid the USMC. She
really worries that with all that's happening there is
going to be another big war. I will however take your
advice on getting my MOS guaranteed in writing from an
officer. I wouldn't want to end up cooking :) I may
even move down near Sydney so I can join a cavalry
unit. That way I wouldn't have to be a dirty rotten
leg :)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 18:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Mon Apr  8 17:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
In-Reply-To: <200204082337.DQN01624@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHMEDNDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

>> John Kwon
>> But it didn't solve the player's dislike of millisecond level detail.

Having played PCCS, I like the system a great deal.  However, actual use
becomes more of a simulation as opposed to an RPG, which is my take on why
people dont like it.  It is hard to come up with a good balance as players
want a wide spectrum of "realism" in their games.

As for the skills in the game, the rules were always meant to be added into
other systems as a combat overlay.  They just say "Gun skill" and leave the
referee to decide if it is for all Pistols, a specific pistol, or simply all
firearms.

Justin


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 18:32:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 17:32:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
In-Reply-To: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHMEDNDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
References: <200204082337.DQN01624@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020408203714.00e31ac0@buffnet.net>

At 05:23 PM 4/8/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>>> John Kwon
>>> But it didn't solve the player's dislike of millisecond level detail.
>
>Having played PCCS, I like the system a great deal.  However, actual use
>becomes more of a simulation as opposed to an RPG, which is my take on why
>people dont like it.  It is hard to come up with a good balance as players
>want a wide spectrum of "realism" in their games.
>
>As for the skills in the game, the rules were always meant to be added into
>other systems as a combat overlay.  They just say "Gun skill" and leave the
>referee to decide if it is for all Pistols, a specific pistol, or simply all
>firearms.

At one point in time, I created a set of rules for using PCCS with GURPS.
It worked relatively well.  My players still remember the time they caught
a military patrol in a ravine.  They had two laws plus assorted personal
fire arms (was an Aftermath like scenario).  Took out the radioman plus the
officer, along with the squad weapon user.  After that, it was mostly a mop
up.  The trick to using GURPS with PCCS is to use Movement points as action
points.  The average DX guy using guns with no weapon skill is a skill
rating of 7.  Someone marginally trained in the weapon is skill 10.  The
chart of course continues from there...

         Hal

PS - if you have the sci-fi version of the weapons from PCCS, it makes for
an interesting mix ;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 18:35:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 17:35:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB2DFC4.13707.BA0366@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 13:46, Sam Draper wrote:

> That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
> because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than
> the AK-47 or even the M14.

In that case the M14 must be considerably less accurate than the old M1 
Garand its based on. IMER the M1 is at least as accurate as the M16A1, 
assuming similar conditions.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408181400.027f5840@pop.wizard.net>

At 01:46 PM 4/8/02 -0600, you wrote:
>laning@wizard.net wrote:
>
> >With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to
> >the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300
> >feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the
> >government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting."
>
>I have not heard this before about Vietnam era ammo.

In the 1980s also.  Marines I knew would take samples home and take them 
apart.  I believe it was the sniper school at Quantico where one of the 
officers told me that the bullets were 52 grains, on average, rather than 
the 55 grains the government was paying for.  And there wasn't as much 
powder as there was supposed to be, but don't recall the specific numbers 
now.  I seem to recall reading something similar somewhere at the time, 
maybe in 'Soldier of Fortune'?  Anyway, I was told by the people who 
randomly checked the ammo that reached the front-line troops that we were 
typically getting 2100 fps, and it wasn't very unusual to get under 1800 
fps.  All of this is subject to my memory working correctly, which isn't 
just a boilerplate warning, I have significant problems with it.  The same 
kind of scams take place in government purchasing all the time.  Once the 
initial production runs have been accepted, the quality checks are very 
coarse and easy to see coming.  And possibly there's some graft at work, 
too.  Everything from clothing being a little lighter weight than paid for 
to rations being a little lighter.  An unscrupulous contractor often finds 
it's easy to increase their profit margin by five percent or so, this way.


>   I can tell you that
>current production military production Lake City and Winchester ammo is
>meeting mil-spec (3200+ fps for M193 (for M16A1s) and 3000+ fps for M855
>(for M16A2s)).

How is this data verified or acquired, please?  I'm just curious to get 
another data point, not being accusatory or argumentative.  :->

>   The army still buys M16A1 ammo for rifles still in service
>with the National Guard.  It is not match ammo, but the accuracy is pretty
>good.  Certainly good enough to hit a torso at 500 yards with iron sights.

We were all doing that with our crappy ammo in the 1980s.  It's easy when 
they hold nice and still and you can take your time firing.

> >government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam
> >had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other
> >assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.  Including poorer
> >accuracy.
>
>This guy Facker's experiences were exactly the opposite.  Most of the
>comlaints I have heard about the early M16 stems from the poor reliability,
>which was a result of the Army using the wrong kind of powder.

Partly.  What I hear mentioned only rarely is that any really high velocity 
weapon necessarily requires closer working tolerances for moving 
parts.  That means it doesn't take much foreign material or carbon 
accumulation to jam or slow down a moving part.  Which leads us to the 
major difference between the M-16 and the M-16A1, addition of the forward 
assist to help clear jams and addition of the ejection port cover to help 
keep foreign material away from the bolt.

>   There is
>also a pretty big prejudice against the smaller caliber, which is somewhat
>understandable given that few states allow hunters to use .223 on big game.
>And deer do not shoot back.  But the 7.62x39 is pretty similar ballistically
>to the venerable 30/30; with FMJ bullets it would hardly be a death ray
>either.

The talk about pros and cons of various infantry weapons is so larded with 
prejudices that I figure none of us who open our mouths on the topic are 
completely free of some prejudice on it.  And many are really bad.  John 
Wayne smashing the M-16 against a tree in 'The Green Berets' and calling it 
a child's plastic toy and blaming it for the death of his troops.  Well, 
they couldn't smash a real M-16 against a tree because alloy and fiberglass 
is a lot tougher than what they thought of it back in 1966.  The director 
had to get an actual plastic toy imitation of an M-16 so that "the Duke" 
could smash it.  And there are at least tens of thousands of people who to 
this day think it's a cheap plastic piece of junk because of that 
movie.  People who carried one in a combat zone themselves and should know 
better.


>That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
>because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than the
>AK-47 or even the M14.
>
> >Let us please leave as a separate thread the discussion of whether aimed
> >rifle fire is any different in battlefield effectiveness from unaimed
> >fire.
>
>Like I said above, the M16 is a very accurate platform.  It will make pretty
>small holes once the muzzle velocity falls below 2700 fps (about 15-200
>yards).  Fortunately, like you said, most opponents will take a powder once
>they are shot, no matter how severe the wound.
The muzzle velocity remains the same, regardless of how far away the target 
is.  Muzzle velocity is the speed of the bullet as it leaves the 
muzzle.  The projectile velocity declines as it loses momentum from air 
friction and succumbing to gravity.  Muzzle velocity for government ammo 
for the A1 was just over 2700 fps.  I should be able to remember the 
precise figure, I thought that was indelibly inscribed in memory.  Had 
trouble the other day remembering my EAS date too!  Imagine that one.  I 
guess the Marine Corps Birthday will be the next to go, followed by my own 
birthday.  Hand loaders can get 3250 fps with a 56-grain bullet.  Anyway, 
it shot pretty accurately for me on the rifle range even on some fairly 
windy days.  And my score went up about 4 or 5 points when they gave me the A2.

The 5.56 in each of its incarnations ended up being a distinct improvement 
over the M-1 carbine in performance, and a lot more manageable than those 
big ol' M-14s.  The days I had to go on long runs with a rifle at port arms 
I was damned glad that the M-14 was before my time, let me tell you!  As I 
recall learning it, the story of the M-16 becoming the standard US infantry 
rifle was as much politics as anything else.  It found its way to being 
proposed for sale to military allies in Southeast Asia and other places 
where the average soldier was much smaller and lighter than the average US 
soldier (because of its lighter weight and lower recoil), wound up being 
used by special American units that worked closely with said allies as much 
for compatibility as anything, then was chosen as a suitable "carbine" 
replacement for troops in vehicles and such who only need something for 
self defense, and finally ended up being given to everyone in the name of 
standardization.  At almost each step on that path, something more was done 
to nerf the weapon.  I am sure I don't have all the details right, but 
that's the gist of it.  The A2 model was basically a step towards 
un-nerfing it, and giving it back some of the power it had in one of its 
earlier forms.  That decision too, was as much politics as anything 
else.  The official reason given was compatibility with the 5.56 ammo used 
by NATO allies.

Basically, the M-16 is a good varmint rifle on steroids, with the furniture 
and "accessories" suitable for a good assault rifle.  Just like the M-1 
Garand or M-14 are good deer and other medium game rifles on steroids, with 
improved furniture and "accessories" for their day and suitable for the 
battlefield.

I don't think it's a stupid idea to take a varmint rifle and turn it into a 
combat rifle.  It does have its advantages.  But I'd feel more sanguine 
about firing a 130-, 150- or 180-grain bullet from something chambered for 
7.62 NATO or .303 British than a 55-grain bullet.  Like most other things, 
it's a combination of trade offs because you can't have one thing that will 
give you all the attributes you wish for.


> >Recently, Tod Glenn seems to have made the most articulate explanations on
> >the TML for why gauss weapons will be the infantry weapons of choice at
> >tech levels that permit them.
>
>That is very interesting.  I have read in tests that little darts at high
>velocities are remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do
>little tissue damage.  But odd things happen at high velocities.  I'll see
>if I can dig up my source.

We're talking about gauss weapon projectiles moving at speeds well in 
excess of 1,450 meters per second or faster, not feet per second.  Just to 
remind everyone of the perspective.  By way of comparison, the nominal 
2,710 feet/second muzzle velocity of the old M-16 is only 826 meters/second.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408211451.027f3ec0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon's soul quests desperately for completion:

>I've noticed that with skill resolution or combat resolution
>systems, you've got too simple (CT), or simply inaccurate
>with too much potatoes (GURPS), or wildly inaccurate with
>long weapon lists (Rifts), or terribly accurate but nearly
>unplayable unless you are all gearheads with 12 hours to do
>60 seconds of combat (PCCS).
>
>Friends, there has to be something better.

Perfect opportunity for computer-aided gaming.  Combat software with the 
terrain map, weather, characters, equipment, etc. and the player tells the 
ref what he wants his character to do and the ref tells the 
computer.  Enter the moves for all characters, then hit Enter and find out 
what happens.  All input and output should go through the ref, so the ref 
can alter the cut & dried calculations to conform with what the referee 
believes or wants to manipulate.

Nobody seems interesting in writing that software because they're either 
writing traditional RPG rules, miniatures rules, or a complete computer 
game.  I must say it's hard to think of a business model where the 
developers will get paid more than nickels and dimes, so it's hard to blame 
folks for not doing it.

What's needed is a Nonprofit Institute for the Advancement of Game Design, 
with good funding.  There is something a little bit like that out there 
now, but it focuses on complete computer games and has various troubles 
including funding.  Or an open-source movement for computer-aided gaming 
that's widespread, the way the Linus open-source movement is widespread.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:26:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:26:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408180047.009f1d00@mindspring.com>

At 12:32 AM 4/9/02 +1200, you wrote:

>I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were
>based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped
>their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its
>subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its
>companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it
>belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles,
>field ovens, etc.

Give the man a see-gar.  I based the Imperial Army units in GF on the 
standards for Soviet units of similar size and missions. A Motorized Rifle 
Regiment was supposed to be a self-contained combat unit, able to fight on 
its own without the constant need to be tied to higher command just to 
perform its basic mission.

>I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
>the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
>used to supply and support its troops.

Remember what they say about assumptions...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:27:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:27:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408180410.00a05160@mindspring.com>

At 01:14 PM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>What about the Sergeant (Apone?) - I thought the role of an NCO was to 
>stop the officers messing everything up? Clearly he has more experience 
>than Gorman and yet he's quite happy to lead his troops into an unknown 
>environment against an unknown force AND he gives all the ammo to one man.

Apone was given a legal order by his commanding officer.  He followed 
it.  Evidently, SOP was to have one man carry all the ammo.  Oops. I'm 
surprised he didn't know that Drake had the extra BFG thingies.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
 <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408181304.009eb5c0@mindspring.com>

At 03:04 PM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and 
>equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really 
>good work being done there.

More than half the book is game neutral.  Just good information about the 
forces.

>The Keith-class was named in honor?  Well done.  :->

The lander's name is the M. Keith's name run through a Vilani name generator.


>If I were the Imperium, I wouldn't bother to build standard troop 
>transports that carry less than a complete battalion.  Brigades or 
>divisions would have logistical elements that are more forward on the 
>battlefield, and most of the logistical tail on the ground would be at 
>corps level or higher.  It sounds like the Keith class represents pretty 
>similar thinking.  :->

Yep.  I had a design for a *divisional* cold-sleep ship, but I had to make 
some space choices.

>I think there is a very important, but still subsidiary, role for ships 
>that transport and land Imperial Marine companies and it sounds like you 
>think the same way.  You're probably aware that the US considers the 
>Marine battalion to be the standard chunk to embark and deploy, plus full 
>supporting elements.  But there are a lot of ways in which they are poor 
>analogues for Imperial Marines.

Credit where credit is due Dpt. The vehicle and ship designs were the work 
of others.. I just put out deign ideas on a mailing list I established for 
the purpose, and we debated the various designs.  The entire 
Sunburst-series missile sleds were really fun to come up with.

>Your grav sleds make a lot of sense.  I bet you have ambulance sleds, aid 
>station sleds, and field kitchen sleds too?

These are simple conversion of the basic G-carrier, much like the US Army 
has these variations for the Hum-vee.'

>Finally, I've been meaning for a long time to compliment you on the sig 
>about embracing fascism because the uniforms look cool.  Nice.

Once again, not mine.  It was uttered on the TML by a soul who asked not to 
be attributed in the sig.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:35:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:35:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408180047.009f1d00@mindspring.com>
References: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB2EDB0.4851.F063FB@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 18:03, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 12:32 AM 4/9/02 +1200, you wrote:
> 
> >I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were
> >based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped
> >their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its
> >subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its
> >companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it
> >belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles,
> >field ovens, etc.
> 
> Give the man a see-gar.  I based the Imperial Army units in GF on the
> standards for Soviet units of similar size and missions. A Motorized
> Rifle Regiment was supposed to be a self-contained combat unit, able to
> fight on its own without the constant need to be tied to higher command
> just to perform its basic mission.

I was actually talking about the SMC and Striker II Imperial units (I 
already knew yours were based of the Soviets, though to me some of them 
look more like a US unit).
 
> >I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
> >the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
> >used to supply and support its troops.
> 
> Remember what they say about assumptions...

I never claimed that the Imperium was always right, or omnicompetent. 
:)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:38:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:38:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
Message-ID: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning tasks me
>
>Perfect opportunity for computer-aided gaming.  Combat 
>software with the terrain map, weather, characters, 
>equipment, etc. and the player tells the 
>ref what he wants his character to do and the ref tells the 
>computer.  Enter the moves for all characters, then hit 
>Enter and find out 
>what happens.

There's no reason I couldn't write this.  There's no reason 
it couldn't run over the Internet, either.

Damn you, laning....
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:39:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:39:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408181304.009eb5c0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB2EEB9.12979.F4729E@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 18:19, Douglas Berry wrote:

> Once again, not mine.  It was uttered on the TML by a soul who asked not
> to be attributed in the sig.

Wasn't that in relation to the Starship Troopers movie?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:41:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:41:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <200204090139.DQR01653@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>Oops. I'm surprised he didn't know that Drake had the extra 
>BFG thingies.
>

If I had the weapon out of the armory, M-16 or M21 or M24, I 
always had ammunition - even if I had not been issued any, or 
had been ordered to "give it up".
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 20:01:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 19:01:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408211451.027f3ec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:21:16PM -0400
References: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020408211451.027f3ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020408200055.A2997@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:21:16PM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> Nobody seems interesting in writing that software because they're either 
> writing traditional RPG rules, miniatures rules, or a complete computer 
> game.  I must say it's hard to think of a business model where the 
> developers will get paid more than nickels and dimes, so it's hard to blame 
> folks for not doing it.

My business model is I write software I want, then GPL it.  Thus it is
now and forevermore free, and will hopefully be of some use to the
world at large.  I pay for food by another mechanism entirely.

> Or an open-source movement for computer-aided gaming that's
> widespread, the way the Linux open-source movement is widespread.

Well, it's easy enough: start writing.  Linux didn't start out
well-funded; indeed, the vast majority of its development was
_unfunded_.  The whole mechanism is that one writes the kind of
software one wishes to use--then by using it, discovers where the
problems are, and fixes them.  The use of the GPL ensures that anyone
else who fixes a problem is incented to release his (small)
modification to your (major) work.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We English-speaking peoples should keep hold of the essential fact about
foreign languages: They exist to make us laugh.        --John Derbyshire

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 20:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 19:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <3CB2EEB9.12979.F4729E@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408181304.009eb5c0@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408190941.009f9670@mindspring.com>

At 01:38 PM 4/9/02 +1200, you wrote:
>On 8 Apr 2002 at 18:19, Douglas Berry wrote:
>
> > Once again, not mine.  It was uttered on the TML by a soul who asked not
> > to be attributed in the sig.
>
>Wasn't that in relation to the Starship Troopers movie?

Yep.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 20:53:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon Apr  8 19:53:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 08, 2002 12:47:07 AM
Message-ID: <200204090153.g391rtO02801@localhost.uia.net>

> Chemical reaction rates depend strongly on the mass of the atoms. Atoms
> with similar properties (same column in the periodic table) react at
> rates that are strongly connected with their mass differences. 
>
> So the rates might increase dramaticly.

Under, say 99%, inertial suppression, the mass-ratios would still
be the same as under zero suppression.
 
> Molecular collisions in air would result in the molecules stopping,
> rather than rebounding. So the opposing portions of their vectors would
> cancel out. Add in the effects of gravity, and all the air molecules
> would be in a thin layer near the floor. 

But gravity would have less of a pull of the air molecules, being that
they would have a lower apparent mass under inertial suppresion, so
again we're looking at these effects cancelling each other out.

> Thermal effects on the gases get weird too.

I'm not sure how to handle these.

Speaking on the atomic level:
> Then you're dead. Too many of the forces at those levels *do* depend on
> inertia. Lowering inertia raises the *effective* force.

I'm not sure what the effective force is. I've heard of strong, the
weak, the electromagnetic, and gravity. Maybe we should only be
considering these forces and how atoms would be effected different by
a lower constant for inertia across the entire system being considered.
Basically, I'm looking for an effect that would not cancel out. In
the first example you gave, you say that one molecule won't react
properly with another because the former's mass is too low. But what
if both of their masses are lower by the same percentage? In the
second example, you say that atoms bouncing against each other will
tend not to bounce as much under inertial suppression, and will tend
to crowd at the floor. But you fail to consider that gravity will have
less of a pull on inertia-suppressed molecules, so that the crowding
shouldn't occur. I think it would be better to look at really simple
problems in a closed system involving only a pair of atoms to show
how their movements would be changed if BOTH of their apparent masses
were lowered by the same percentage.

If we only look at gravity, I don't see there being any difference
in their movements. Masses fall at the same speed (newton). So inertial
supression should have no effect on gravity. As for the other four
forces, I don't know enough physics to answer that.

> As an example, the reason that water doesn't boil at around -150 F is
> because of Van der waals forces. Compare the boiling points of hydrogen
> oxide, hydrogen sulfide, and so on down that column in the periodic
> table. All of them *but* H2O have very low boiling points. 
>
> Lowering the inertia of the molecules will have the effect of adding
> similar forces. Which will change the physical and chemical properties
> of compounds *drastically*. 

Does this example consider that the entire system is inertially
suppressed to the same percentage, and that all four of the fundamental
forces are effected accordingly?

> >> This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
> >> work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
> >> viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.
> >
> > Except that your heart would also be of a lower apparent mass.
> 
> What's *that* got to do with it? The pumping forces are due to
> contraction of the muscle fibers. The mass of the heart has little
> relevance there. The only effect it'd have (to the first order, anyway)
> is making it *easier* to contract. 

Which is why I'd rather look at really simple systems of only a
pair of atoms, so that all the complicating factors can be taken
out of the way and we can see what would really occur at the most
fundamental level.
 
> > Instead of thinking of a normal pool ball hitting a styrofoam ball,
> > think of one styrofoam ball hitting another one. On the molecular
> > scale, I'm guessing that this would be more akin to what would be
> > happening. -Jim
> 
> Nope. Because you lose the rebound. 

I'm not talking about 100% inertial suppression. I agree that
this would cause a great deal of strangeness, which I don't
really want to examine. For practical purposes, I'm talking about
suppression somewhere between 90% and 99.999%. -Jim
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 21:05:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 20:05:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405074625.009ee8d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20408.200150.0q9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 05:45 AM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>Although my Dante is rusty and my personal sentiments
>>don't agree...
>>
>>"Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."
>
> That's Milton, from "Paradise Lost."
>
> Dante's best line came from The Inferno... the inscription on the gates of 
> Hell.
>
> "I AM THE WAY INTO THE CITY OF WOE
> I AM THE WAY TO A FORSAKEN PEOPLE
> I AM THE WAY INTO ETERNAL SORROW
>
> SACRED JUSTICE MOVED MY ARCHITECT
> I WAS RAISED THERE BY DIVINE OMNIPOTENCE
> PRIMORDIAL LOVE AND ULTIMATE INTELLECT.
>
> ONLY THOSE ELEMENTS TIME CANNOT WEAR
> WERE MADE BEFORE ME, AND BEYOND TIME I STAND.
> ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."
>
> I want that on the door to my gaming room.. :)

WSounds like the routine I pulled one Halloween when the local <adult>
club I belonged to was having a "play party". 

I'd answer the door, smile at the people and use a sweeping hand
gesture to invite them in as I quoted Dracula (from the movie):

"Enter freely, and of your own will..."

Only a few got it. You could tell by the *look* on their faces and the
way they thought it over for a minute before entering. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 21:06:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 20:06:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Tugs, etc
In-Reply-To: <200204041934.DIV01979@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20408.192730.5x5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I haven't seen many designs for a "tug", a useful vessel for 
> attaching to and moving other larger vessels.  Might also be 
> useful for moving large asteroids that come in from the outer 
> system and pose a hazard to navigation (or even to a planet).
>
> Was just reading
> http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-space-
> menace0404apr04.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnationworld%2Dheadlines
>
> and had a mental picture of some bored tug crew getting 
> orders to move out and push this piece of rock into the sun.

Solar impact trajectories require about half again as much delta-V as a
system escape trajactory.


escape velocity = sqrt(2) * orbital velocity.

Since you have to kill better than 90% of the oribital velocity to hit
the star....

It's *far* simpler to just adjust the orbit to not go near anyplace you
care about or to nudge it into a parking orbit around something.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 21:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon Apr  8 20:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 08, 2002 12:47:07 AM
Message-ID: <200204090209.g3929Gw02878@localhost.uia.net>

Okay, I'm going to post an argument which another friend
just sent me. This might scuttle the idea of inertial
suppression. Let me know what you think.

Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
suppression, they move toward each other much faster
than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
I wrong? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 22:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 21:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051636.DKL02665@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20408.201302.1d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> ObTrav:  The easiest holdout to design would be a laser.  You 
> could isolate the powerpack and electronics at some other 
> location under the clothing, run a fiber optic cable to the 
> hand area, contrive a trigger (ring pull?), and have the exit 
> optics somewhere over the back of the hand.  If you made a 
> fist, and curled the fist inward, the ring would pull the 
> trigger and the beam would fire over the back of the hand.

The optical fiber that can handle a weapons grade laser doesn't exist.
And isn't likely to. 

And one bit of damage and the laser energy gets deposited in the
damaged section of fiber. Ouch!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 22:41:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 21:41:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Grav Kitchens
Message-ID: <7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe@aol.com>

--part1_7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   I'd like to see that design :)
  -Ken-

--part1_7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;I'd like to see that design :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 22:46:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr  8 21:46:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <F149PnvEZZ91Lhdms4Q000022be@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1df81$7b919c00$0b01a8c0@duck>

>      You are correct, sir.  My apologies for "bum doping" the List.

And I apologize for sounding like a jerk.  I sometimes forget
how stuff will appear when someone else reads it.

>      "While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I
> don't see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the
> trick is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it."
>
>      Yes, seeding the star with enough tungsten and aiming correctly will
> take time.  Perhaps the Darrians use multiple probes to increase their
> chances?

That is a pretty reasonable idea.  I figure they would be jumping in with
a fleet, not just a squadron.  They probably have a couple of "probe" ships
and multiple ships that can deliver the meson trigger.

Plus, I also figure they would be dependent on relative surprise.  If they
face a coordinated defense that is expecting them, they are probably best
advised to try a different system in a week or so.

[ BIG snip ]
>      The "real" reason the Star Trigger wasn't used during all those
> centuries is that weapons of mass destruction aren't, except in very rare
> cases, used to ensure you'll WIN a war.  They're used to ensure that the
> other fellow LOSES the war.  This is a important distinction.  The Star
> Trigger and MAD, on which it is based, is a suicide pact; "You push us too
> far and we'll make sure we all die, you included."

Good point.  I was focused on the SW, not the bigger picture.  The
background does imply that the Star Trigger was created with the Zhodani
in mind, not the SW.  (Though if their relationship ever went sour,
they would probably include the Imperium with the Zhodani.)

>      The Trigger can be used defensively rather easily, by employing it
you
> ensure that the power about to conquer you is left with nothing worth
> conquering.  Using the Trigger offensively, like nukes, is far tougher.
...

I seriously doubt the Darrians would destroy their own worlds to prevent
capture.  The only reason I can think of for them to intentionally use
the Star Trigger in one of their own systems is if they believed they could
nail a major fleet, then come back in to fix the system.

They would, however, without hesitation do a deep penetration to wipe
out an enemy world.  Or several.

>      "I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an incredible
> accomplishment in its own right."
>
>      Keeping the secret that the Trigger demonstration was a fake was the
> really incrediable accomplishment.  The fakers had to fool both the
> observers from the other powers AND their own people utterly and
> completely.
>   Why didn't the secret never leak out?  Mass suicide among the project
> staff over "creating" so horrible a weapon?

I imagine the Darrians would be pragmatic enough to have a mass "suicide"
to keep the secret.  I figure some of those in the "suicide" really did
commit real suicide after making sure the "suicides" took place.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020409053141.28337.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Apone was given a legal order by his commanding
officer. He followed it.  Evidently, SOP was to have
one man carry all the ammo.  Oops. I'm surprised he
didn't know that Drake had the extra BFG thingies.
END QUOTE

No Doug, Vasquez had the extra links for the smart
guns. Tsk tsk tsk. Strap him down boys he needs
another four hours on continous loop. :) The thing I
find strange about the movie is that Apone doesn't
comment on Drake and Vasquez taking point even though
they have   "supposedly" disarmed weapons! The funny
thing is Aliens fans have bigger debates over the
whole "they don't show up on infrared issues" (If the
aliens temp is low enough not to show up on infrared,
they wouldn't be able to move fast)than even the TML
piracy debates. However we have a better handwave, its
those damned cheapskate manufacturers of IR gear ;)

Does anyone have tonnages for a TL-15 PAWS* spinal
mount.


*Penguin Accelerator Weapon System

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:38:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:38:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAIEKKCOAA.redroach@pobox.com>

The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
civilians.  It has little or no military application,
contrary to popular mythos.

I don't know about that. I saw a story on the History channel about a Marine
officer in Korea I think. He made his men take bayonet practice even though
it was outdated.  They got pinned down on patrol and ran out of ammo.  THe
officer led a successful bayonet charge up a hill which wiped out the North
Koreans. That sounds a bit drastic, but useful.

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:41:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:41:10 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin
 gs
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

I know this has probably gone the round on the TML, but just in case. 

Star Wars Name =

First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name

First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
were born. 

Which makes me Mikhu Huper

Damn it, I sound like the old store keeper dude from Sesame Street. 

Apologies if already discussed/known/rejected 'cause it's not canon,
concerns pirates and/or near C rocks etc. 

So Darrien Thistle, born in Ermington, with his mothers maiden name of
Vaddlepettle would be

.... Darth Vader

Nice. 

Mikey

Ob Trav: I think that is clear. 

PS So if Dave Jaques Watson was born in Canberra, and his mother's name was
Smith, he would be Davwa Smcan.

I think I'll make him the evil dude in my next campaign (someone with an
incurable, non fatal but disfiguring disease).

Heh Heh Heh. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>; from Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:02:40PM +1000
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020408234503.A15920@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:02:40PM +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name

Robuh

> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born. 

Menor

Robuh Menor--yer right; sounds vaguely like one of Lucas's fevered
imaginings.  Sehr amusant.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:52:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:52:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204090209.g3929Gw02878@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <200204090209.g3929Gw02878@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
> an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
> move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
> suppression, they move toward each other much faster
> than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
> I wrong?

If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
on each ion, then it is true.

If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
factor of 10.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <20020408.225739.-3503.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 14:02:40 +1000 "Hughes, Michael"
<Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au> writes:
>  
> Star Wars Name =Barst Cotor
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first 
> name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town 
> where you were born. 

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:57:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:57:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <OF1B531251.5105373F-ONCA256B95.001A7F77@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408225507.00ace4c0@mail.verizon.net>

Yes, Dear Hyphen, it's definitely Monday!!!  ;-)

At 12:51 PM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Dear Folks -
>
>Charles replied to Laning thus:
> >>We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including
> >>ironing.  Every service a hotel provides, basically.
> >
> >Even hookers?
>
>Certainly! Just the things you need to grab on to when you perform an EVA
>and the ship decides to lurch suddenly.
>
>...or did I misunderstand your point?
>
>;-)  ;-)  ;-)
>
>(It really _must_ be Monday.)
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 00:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Mon Apr  8 23:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F210WagewMS59IvqvIy000169c3@hotmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn writes:

> > That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
> > because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than
> > the AK-47 or even the M14.
>
>In that case the M14 must be considerably less accurate than the old M1
>Garand its based on. IMER the M1 is at least as accurate as the M16A1,
>assuming similar conditions.

I think the M14 and M1, as weapons platforms, probably get pretty similar 
accuracy.  After all, the M14 is clearly derived from the M1.  The M14 is 
probably more accurate solely because the 308 round is more accurate than 
30-06.  This has something to do with the case being squatter and the shape 
of the case shoulder.  The M14 over time replaced the M1 as the premier 
firearm in military matches.  The M14 is now being replaced in that role by 
the M16, which is shooting better than either of its predecessors.  These 
match rifles have a number of upgrades from standard rifles, so that 
probably does not tell you that much about issue rifles.  The Army's minimum 
standard for accuracy is pretty lousy (4 MOA IIRC), so any of these rifles 
would probably fit that bill.

But as to your basic point that an M1 gets better accuracy than an M16A1, as 
far as issue weapons I would not be too sure.  The M16's action probably 
gives better accuracy.  Also, the M1's wood stock is not so great when you 
do a lot of firing.  The M16 has much less recoil.  On the other hand, the 
M16 is lousy if you are using a sling (because the sling connects to the 
front sight which is connected directly to the barrel) and it has a very 
thin barrel.  I bet the M16A2, with the heavy barrel, does better than the 
Garand though.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 00:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon Apr  8 23:27:08 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
References: <20020407.214938.-3991.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CB28B2B.81ED4C11@attbi.com>


generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> I assumed the 3 meters was deck to deck, allowing the extra space for
> conduits, ducts, overhead lighting,, pipes, electrical stuff, grav plates
> etc.
> 
 
But, that is all engineering space..

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 00:54:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Apr  8 23:54:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408123225.02823ec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408123225.02823ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8d83e5696fb@[198.123.22.190]>

At 1:36 PM -0400 4/8/02, laning wrote:
>Leonard Erickson discusses the antihijacker issue:
>>  > If nobody else does, then
>>>  insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security
>>>  measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time
>>>  and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.
>>
>>You are considering *installation* costs. I'm talking about the costs
>>in time wasted due to "overly stringent" security getting in the way.
>>
>>Oil tankers are expensive too. So are modern freighters. And *safety*
>>gear on them that "gets in the way" is routinely bypassed by crews,
>>never mind "security" gear.
>
>I wholeheartedly agree that personnel will tend to ignore things 
>that are inconvenient.  That's partly why insurers and lenders and 
>regulators at starports will be the ones insisting on enforcement 
>through certifications and inspections.  They won't expect ship 
>crews to take care of it on their own.

While I haven't followed the thread far enough to follow all the 
issues, I think there is a point to be made here.  One can't just 
assume insurance company will force any security measure you can 
think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be unpopular and, 
unless the savings in costs is _significant_, there won't be enough 
of a change in premiums to compensate.

-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 01:09:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 00:09:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F84ekOtJI52I0jYn6hx00003845@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>Anyway, I was told by the people who
>randomly checked the ammo that reached the front-line troops that we were
>typically getting 2100 fps, and it wasn't very unusual to get under 1800
>fps.

Were you getting a lot of failures to feed?  I am just wondering if such 
weak ammo could get the action to cycle reliably.

>How is this data verified or acquired, please?  I'm just curious to get
>another data point, not being accusatory or argumentative.  :->

This is from my rifle with a chronograph, and recent surplus ammo (1999-2001 
production for LC; I think the WCC was older, like 1991).

>Muzzle velocity for government ammo for the A1 was just over 2700 fps.

While there may have been some bad ammo, I do not think the spec for the 55 
grain ammo (M193) has changed since the round was first standardized.  It 
has always required a muzzle velocity of 3250 fps, measured 15' from the 
muzzle (from TM 43-0001-27).  The new 62 grain round (M1855) is supposed to 
go 3025 fps, measured 78 feet from the muzzle.

>I don't think it's a stupid idea to take a varmint rifle and turn it
>into a combat rifle.  It does have its advantages.  But I'd feel more
>sanguine about firing a 130-, 150- or 180-grain bullet from something
>chambered for 7.62 NATO or .303 British than a 55-grain bullet.  Like
>most other things, it's a combination of trade offs because you can't
>have one thing that will give you all the attributes you wish for.

Interestingly, most modern militaries are adopting 5.56 rifles and dropping 
the bigger calibers.  This is even true of weapons like the FAL which could, 
with some work, be made as flexible as far as mounting optics and 
accessories as the M16A4 or M4.

It makes me wonder a little if the Army decided that infantry are not that 
effecive anyway, so it might as well give the boys something that shoots 
lightweight ammo.  On the other hand, maybe they think 5.56 is enough, 
because if someone has a hole in them, even a .22 hole, they will be out of 
action.  Whichever is the case, most other armies seem to be buying into it 
too.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 01:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Tue Apr  9 00:56:08 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
In-Reply-To: <200204082055.DQH04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204091051290.24305-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >Please enlighten me.  PCCS?
> Phoenix Command Combat System, 4th Edition, with all 
> supplements. A product of the now defunct Leading Edge Games.
> The advanced small arms damage tables from the game came from 
> Computerman, a model you may recall.  Now try that by hand 
> instead of by computer.

You might consider using a laptop. Couple of people known to me have held
Vietnam and the Finnish Winter War scenarios here in some rpg cons here in
Finland, and the game went very smoothly, even with players who didn't
know the system. 

Sadly, the Vietnam campaign's www pages are in Finnish, and I can't find
the Winter War pages.

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 01:59:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue Apr  9 00:59:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

A gaming system where everybody contributes rules like
linux? That's a great idea. Wish I could program.
People are still gonna argue rules and realism though.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 02:41:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue Apr  9 01:41:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Grav Kitchens (MT)
In-Reply-To: <7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEPLEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of MurfNMurf@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2002 12:41 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Grav Kitchens


 I'd like to see that design :)
 -Ken-

Your wish...

G-M90 CLASS GRAV FIELD KITCHEN
It is a well known fact that all armies march on their stomachs, and it was
with this in mind that the Terrans introduced the G-M90 grav field kitchen
to provide hot meals for troops in the field.

CraftID: Grav Field Kitchen, TL13, Cr1,075,680
Hull: 5/12, Disp=5, Config=4SL, Armour=4F,
Unloaded=20.587 tons, Loaded=36.495 tons
Power: 1/2, Fusion=12Mw, Duration=30/90
Loco: 1/2, StdGravThrust=54tons, NOE=170kph, Cruise=432kph,
Top=576kph, MaxAccel=0.48G
Commo: Radio=Regional
Sensors: PassiveEMS=VDistant, ActiveEMS=Distant,
Environment, Radiation, Headlights x2,
ActObjScan=Form, ActObjPin=Form, PasObjScan=Form,
Off/Def: Hardpoints=1
Control: Computer=0bis x2, Panel=holographic link x1,
Special=headsUp display x1,
Environ=basic env, basic ls,extend ls, grav plates,
inertial compensators
Accom: Crew=3, (Driver/Cook=1, Cooks=2), Seats=roomy x4
Other: Cargo=14.9 kliters, Fuel=14.4 kliters
1 Air Lock,
1 10kl Field Kitchen Module,
No Fuel Purification Plant,
ObjSize=Small, No Fuel Scoops,
EmLevel=Moderate
Comments: Field Kitchen Module taken from Striker 1.
Construction Time=24 weeks single, 20 weeks multiple


Antony



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 02:58:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 01:58:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020409053141.28337.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

James Ramsay wrotw :

> The thing I find strange about the movie is that
> Apone doesn't comment on Drake and Vasquez taking
> point even though they have "supposedly" disarmed
> weapons!

That's because he _knew_ they'd still have rounds.
But couldn't officially know it, if you know what I mean.

> The funny
> thing is Aliens fans have bigger debates over the
> whole "they don't show up on infrared issues" (If the
> aliens temp is low enough not to show up on infrared,
> they wouldn't be able to move fast)

This has always been simple to explain.
They didn't show up on infrared _in_that_scene_ because they
are the same temperature as the nest materiel they are hiding
in, which is not cold itself. (Look at the steam and the
location)

The person who yelled it was obviously not thinking straight at
the time or they'd have realized this fact.

At other times, no-one needs to look for them on IR because they
are in the open or in situations where IR is not the best means
of detection.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 02:59:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 01:59:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Douglas Berry wrote :
> At 11:08 AM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>
> >One word. F*#&ing officers.
> >Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
> >officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
> >enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
> >interview on the DVD).
>
> OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was
> inexperienced, that's all.

As can be seen the fact he had never done a live drop.

Note that The Company probably pulled strings to _ensure_ that an
inexperienced officer was sent, so he was more likley to accede
to the company man's wishes.

An experienced officer would likely have told the company man to
go fuck himself, and probably have shot the guy on the spot once
his treachery with Ripley and Newt was exposed.

"Treason in the face of the enemy while under martial law" or
some such charge would do, with death as a summary judgement. As
highest ranking military officer on a colony under martial law, I
suspect he would effectively have the powers of God, even if the
Company was pretty powerful back home, it would be setting a
dangerous precedent
for the Colonial Marines to have _not_ backed up their man on the
spot, and the Company could just claim their man had gone rogue.

> All he knew was the
> book, and suddenly the book went out the window
> as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

Actually, the way the marines fell apart when they were first
jumped makes me think the rest of them weren't that experienced
either, just gung ho. And with Apone down in the first few
seconds, probably the only real experience other than Ripley's
was gone.

> Win the shit came down, he covered his people,

However it was Ripley that went back to get the people, Gorman
was still dithering when she took over the APC and drove it into
the hive.

> and went back to get Vasquez, then sacrificed himself
> to slow the enemy down.  In my view, those are the
> kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.

Yeah, I haver to agree with Doug here.

If "Aliens" was an anti-Vietnam film it was the worst one ever
made.
Especially as the US was out of Vietnam well before the movie was
even started.

The person who deserves the biggest rocket up the arse in
"Aliens" (military-wise) is the pilot of the dropship.
Though she was originally told that the LZ had been secured,
she'd never make a Traveller-PC group.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 03:00:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 02:00:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8d83e5696fb@[198.123.22.190]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :
> While I haven't followed the thread far enough to
> follow all the  issues, I think there is a point
> to be made here.  One can't just assume insurance
> company will force any security measure you can
> think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be
> unpopular and, unless the savings in costs is
> _significant_, there  won't be enough
> of a change in premiums to compensate.

The insurance comany won't change it's premiums.

There will just be a clause in the contract, similar to the one
that exists with most vehicle insurance now, that if your vehicle
was not warranted at the time of the accident, or it was being
driven by an unlicensed driver, they won't pay out.

They won't even bother inspecting (or telling you about it) until
_after_ you make the claim. Then they will ask you for your
warrant and masters ticket, and if you can't produce them they
will refuse to pay out.

The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
starport will do it (for important safety and financial reasons,
would you want an unwarranted vehicle approaching an extremely
expensve space station?), there won't be any real choice except
for the captains to take the risk of not doing it and not go to
the better starports

There may even be legal requirenments in many systems.
Unwarranted ships will be told to leave immediately, or stay
stationary until they are warranted.

Given the way the Imperium operates it is unlikely the Imperium
itself will have or enforce such rules, except at the request of
member worlds if a merchant is being a bit recalcitrant, However
the Imperium may set the standards that the member worlds
legislate as they desire.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 03:45:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 02:45:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Greetings dear hearts.

Insurance companies have been in the business of ripping clients off since 
they began, and I doubt they'll change...

However, they do often state preconditions, as well as having 'weasel' 
clauses in the contract. When I took out household insurance a while back 
I had to upgrade the front door lock and they wanted me to get a burglar 
alarm until I told them I kept a Doberman pinscher :-)

So I can see there being a whole raft of terms & conditions if you want 
'3rd party, fire & theft' insurance on your starship: -

Anti-hijack program - they probably insist on you using one provided or 
one that is demonstrably at least as good.

Access control to the vessel of a given standard... they'll ask what you 
have and/or specify minimum requirements.

Qualifications required of operators (master's ticket, etc.)

Restrictions on where you are supposed to go - e.g., "Company must be 
informed prior to visits to any system classified as an Amber Zone. 
Insurance not valid for any travel in systems classified as Red Zone."

Oh dear, if I'm not careful I'll end up writing an insurance contract here 
*grin*

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 03:53:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 02:53:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name things
Message-ID: <200204090952.DRH01545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hughes, Michael" says
<snip section on making up names>

At the end of the movie "She's Having A Baby" several other 
famous types each take a turn at naming babies.  Dan Akroyd 
comes up with three names, all suitable for various campaign 
characters rather than babies.  Of course, even though I had 
watched the movie, I never noticed this until I played in a 
D&D campaign where the three arch enemies had these names - 
and they were led by the evil Nargausius.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 04:48:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue Apr  9 03:48:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name
 thin gs
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020409104751.6e9d13fd.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Hughes, Michael wrote:
> Star Wars Name =
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where
you
> were born. 

Jenry Hakar

The first name is very amusing... look at my e-mail address and see why.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 05:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue Apr  9 04:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B73@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Pitt [mailto:frankie@mundens.gen.nz]
> Sent: 09 April 2002 10:08
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?
> 
> 
> David P. Summers wrote :
> > While I haven't followed the thread far enough to
> > follow all the  issues, I think there is a point
> > to be made here.  One can't just assume insurance
> > company will force any security measure you can
> > think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be
> > unpopular and, unless the savings in costs is
> > _significant_, there  won't be enough
> > of a change in premiums to compensate.
> 
> The insurance comany won't change it's premiums.
> 
> There will just be a clause in the contract, similar to the one
> that exists with most vehicle insurance now, that if your vehicle
> was not warranted at the time of the accident, or it was being
> driven by an unlicensed driver, they won't pay out.
> 
> They won't even bother inspecting (or telling you about it) until
> _after_ you make the claim. Then they will ask you for your
> warrant and masters ticket, and if you can't produce them they
> will refuse to pay out.
> 
> The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
> required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
> may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
> starport will do it (for important safety and financial reasons,
> would you want an unwarranted vehicle approaching an extremely
> expensve space station?), there won't be any real choice except
> for the captains to take the risk of not doing it and not go to
> the better starports

Ok, how long does this Warrant last? Is it similar to the MOT in the UK
for cars? i.e. an annual check of the vehicles condition and compliance
with regulations?

If so, most crews will disable the hindering security aspects (if these
are even covered by the warranting procedure) until such time as they
are approaching annual maintenance and warranting, re-enable them just
befor inspection, then promptly disable them again after certification.

And in any case, a car can be insured against theft even if it doesn't
have steering locks, a car alarm and an immobiliser fitted, so why can't
a starship? Yes, your premium will be a tad higher, but unless theft of
starships is commonplace stringent security won't be a *requirement* of
insurance.

There is a world of difference between a safe ship and a secure one, and
all STC will be concerned with is safety.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 07:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr  9 06:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Roseberrys used HG2 ship lot #2
Message-ID: <3CB2EA6B.7D7D51B5@mail.cswnet.com>

Here are more beauties on the tarmac...
We're slashing prices; everything must go!
Discounts up to 20%
Buy now and get your choice of a Penguin, Tribble, Cabit, or Jackalope
as gift**

**not available in Solomani Rim outlets

Iye-Rethar class auxiliary tender
QT-A1011B2-000000-00007-0  Mcr320.29 std. 1000dt
       one battery          Crew=22       TL=8
Fuel=10 EP=10 Agile=1 Cargo=520 Tankage Fuel=200
Fuel Scoops and Purification plant
Crew=22 [11 officers with 11-4dt staterooms; 11 ratings-with 2dt
rooms]  Lowberths=20 100dt missle bay=1

Aries Eagle class missle boat
MB-A1022B2-700000-00007-0  Mcr940.35 std. 1000dt
one battery                Crew=18  TL=7
Fuel=100 EP=20 Agile=2 Fuel Scoops
Auxiliary 1G manuever drive=1 Auxiliary 1pn power plant=1
Auxiliary Mod 1 fib computer=1 Auxiliary bridge=1
Crew=18 [officers=8, ratings=10.] Marines=31 Frozen watch=42
4dt staterooms=2 [1 each for ship and marine commander]
2dt staterooms=49 [1 passenger possible]
100dt missle bay=1

Ether class Battleship*
BB-A1017B2-800000-00600-0  Mcr1466.54std. 1000dt
one battery                Crew=21  TL=8
Fuel=140 EP=70 Agile=1 Fuel scoops and Purification Plant
Crew=21[11 officers, 10 ratings]
4dt staterooms=11 2dt staterooms=10
Cargo=2 100dt partical accelerator bay=1
*At TL8, this is a Battleship. At TL15, this is a target craft.

Reill class patrol cruiser
PC-A1267E2-130000-00008-0  Mcr1158.284 std. 1100dt
            3         1    Crew=26 Marines=21 TL=11
            3         1
Fuel=297 [jump fuel=220, plant fuel=77] EP=77 Agile=6
1-1dt triple sandcaster turret 1-100dt missle bay
Crew=26[13 officers, 13 ratings] Marines=21
4dt staterooms=13 2dt staterooms=34 Cargo=26

Stacker class repair tug
QT-1204721-000000-20000-0 Mcr94.907 std 100dt
one battery--pulse lasers  Crew=5  TL12
Fuel=7 EP=7 Agile=4 Cargo=3.4dt Fuel scoops and purification plant
1-1dt tripple pulse laser turret
1-10dt machine shop 1-6dt electronics shop
special umbilical docking tube [.025Mcr, 2.6dt]
Crew=5[1 pilot, 1 engineer, 1 gunner/engineer, 2 engineer/maintenance].
5-2dt staterooms.

Plop designs historical series:  The CAM-117 gunship
from Spacecraft 2000-2100AD, by Stewart Cowley, pub 1978, by
Chartwell Books. ISBN 0-89009-211-7

CAM 117 gunship
aka 'the last of the dreadnaughts', 'nuclear kites'
BG-A405AB2-300000-40602-0 Mcr763.09 std. 1900dt
                  1 1 7    Crew=45  TL=8
                  1 1 7
Fuel=190 EP=190 Agility=5 Fuel scoops and Purification Plant
1-100 ton wps bay carrying "One NA 117 Particle Accelerator"
"6 various laser guns": 2-1dt triple beam laser turrets
"various nuclear missile launchers": 7-1dt triple missile racks
Crew=45[11 officers, 34 ratings] 4dt staterooms=45 Cargo=39

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 07:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 06:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
References: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <055501c1dfca$cb684280$1f9e15ac@warrior>

I recall somebody telling me that another problem with these weapons was the
lightness of the projectile ment that wind had a much more drastic effect on
accuracy...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks


> on 4/8/02 2:21 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> >
> > I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).  A
65 gram
> > projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.
>
>
> I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.
>
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 07:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Tue Apr  9 06:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <F2713iCVCd2FvOJyADg0000a126@hotmail.com>

In (Digest) Mail, Matt Bond asked...
<SNIP>
Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to eva while in space to do some 
kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking 
mechanism.  How do I get back in?
</SNIP>

Um, "Open the pod bay doors, Hal"?

Jeff.

"Will the nightmares soon give way to dreaming that she is here with me, 
here in the glow of the night..."

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 08:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 07:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here namethin gs
Message-ID: <200204091452.DRR04317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
>for first name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
>town where you were born. 
>
John Kwon, Chapel Hill

Johon Swcha
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 09:26:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue Apr  9 08:26:07 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here
 namethin gs
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B74@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
> Sent: 09 April 2002 15:53
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn
> how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here namethin gs
> 
> 
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
> >for first name
> > 
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
> >town where you were born. 
> >
> John Kwon, Chapel Hill
> 
> Johon Swcha

I think you will find it is Johkw Schwa...


Matt
(a.k.a. Matbo Pelon)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 10:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr  9 09:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <F73cFZ4RgPRCjOuF1Qp000016f2@hotmail.com>

From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>

     "And I apologize for sounding like a jerk.  I sometimes forget how 
stuff will appear when someone else reads it."

Mr. West,

     Why there's nothing to apologize for, sir!  Your post was perfectly 
alright, I didn't feel it to be anything but correct in both form and tone.
     I was upset with myself over ladling out bad information as if it were 
gospel.  I should have known better and attached an "IIRC" to the statement.

     "That is a pretty reasonable idea.  I figure they would be jumping in 
with a fleet, not just a squadron.  They probably have a couple of "probe" 
ships and multiple ships that can deliver the meson trigger."

     Yes, deployed within a fleet.  That's why the AM 8 talk of the Special 
Branch doesn't sit quite well with me.  It sort of implies that the Darrians 
can zip in with a few vessels and get the job done.
     Leaving probe delivery aside for the moment, look at the meson beam 
requirements.  If you're going to trigger the tungsten plume AND get away, 
you must do it from outside the star's 100D limit.  For a star the size of 
Sol, that's nearly 1 AU.  What sort of beam projector is going to be 
required for that kind of range?  Never mind the accuracy we'll need!
     Spinal mounts don't have that kind of range, at least I assume they 
don't.  Meson gun range is determined by the speed of the particles, you 
whip them up to some insanely relativistic speed in order to delay their 
decay.  When their slowed clocks finally tick down, they go "boom", 
hopefully near the point in space where you want them to do so.
     In the case of the Star Trigger, we'll be attempting to time that decay 
to a point ~1 AU away from our vessels.  The TL 16 Darrians were able to do 
it from Darrian and a GG moon, but the vessels carrying this equipment wil 
be very, very, VERY specialized.  I don't think you'll be able to flip a 
switch and modify a meson gun spinal mount to do the job.

     "I seriously doubt the Darrians would destroy their own worlds to 
prevent capture.  The only reason I can think of for them to intentionally 
use the Star Trigger in one of their own systems is if they believed they 
could nail a major fleet, then come back in to fix the system."

     "They would, however, without hesitation do a deep penetration to wipe 
out an enemy world.  Or several."

     I see the problem with using the Trigger against the Zhos (or 
Imperials) as one of strategic depth.  How many Triggers would take to 
dissuade a very large opponent from continuing his assault on you?  How 
thick a "belt" of Trigger flare systems would it take to stop an offensive?  
Or a war?  Let's take a Darrian-Imperial war for example, would the Darrians 
have to Trigger selected stars as far back as Corridor to keep the Imerium 
at bay?
     Of course, a single Trigger can effect more than one world.  The 
"orignal" deployment did effect worlds as far away from Darrain as Entrope 
and Winston, but at a propogation of <light speed.  It took years for 
results to travel beyond the intial system, not that the warning helped any.
     Deploying many Trigger's at once could present your attacker with an 
unimaginable catastrophe in several systems, and a multi-parsec belt of 
incrediable EM damge that will take decades to develop, but would that cause 
him to cease his assaults or would he be more likely to visit genocide upon 
you and yours?

     "I imagine the Darrians would be pragmatic enough to have a mass 
"suicide" to keep the secret.  I figure some of those in the "suicide" 
really did commit real suicide after making sure the "suicides" took place."

     Omigosh!  Someone who can think nearly as "evilly" as me!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 10:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 09:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B73@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409115948.027e20f0@pop.wizard.net>

Matt Bond:
>Ok, how long does this Warrant last? Is it similar to the MOT in the UK
>for cars? i.e. an annual check of the vehicles condition and compliance
>with regulations?
>
>If so, most crews will disable the hindering security aspects (if these
>are even covered by the warranting procedure) until such time as they
>are approaching annual maintenance and warranting, re-enable them just
>befor inspection, then promptly disable them again after certification.

I think there will be annual inspections at the time of annual maintenance, 
and also inspections at every port that is Class A or B and probably C.

Not every safety feature will be vigorously disabled by crews.  The locks 
between engineering and passenger spaces are quite convenient.  They keep 
passengers from turning up in annoying places and bothering you.  And all 
the crewman has to do is keep their keycard in their pocket and key in four 
numbers on the crypto pad to pass through the lock.  The boat pilot will 
similarly prefer locks that keep wandering crew or passengers from visiting 
"his" boat just out of curiosity and desire for more elbow room.  In less 
normal situations, access to the ship's boats will become universal (for 
abandon ship situations) or more difficult (for hijacking situations).  The 
chief features of the antihijacking security will be to prevent 
unauthorized personnel from gaining access to engineering and other 
crew-only spaces like the bridge, and to prevent unauthorized personnel 
from using control stations.

Electronic log files will be kept on every passage through a hatchway or 
use of a control station.  When visiting better ports, copies of those log 
files will be beamed to whoever keeps such records.  If locks are disabled, 
no event will be logged each time the hatch or control station is used, and 
it will be pretty obvious as soon as someone inspects the logs.

Also, if locks or other measures are disabled, then the insurance 
investigator will be doing her best to elicit confessions or accusations 
from each individual member of the crew.  The crewman who disables a lock, 
and the ship's officer who lets it remain disabled will have to think twice 
about whether they really want personal legal responsibility for the loss 
of the ship that's being investigated.  Their employment contracts have 
explicit language designed to ensure that a crewman or officer who is 
culpable in a loss is subject to heavy, heavy penalties.

The risk just won't be worth taking, especially since the chief benefit of 
disabling locks is not having to punch in four numbers each time the 
individual passes through a hatchway between where they spend most of their 
work day and where they rarely venture anyway.  All it takes is one or two 
honest crewmen to decide to turn them in and they are in big, big trouble.

The level of personal inconvenience to crew and officers shouldn't be 
overrated.  Nor should the level of security most people are willing to put 
up with.  I don't know about other major U.S. cities, but here in the 
Washington area most places of employment make people go past security to 
enter and exit their building, there are roving security guards, all 
packages are subject to inspection, people have to physically log in and 
out of the building outside of normal work hours, and there are frequently 
a few doors within the company's area that are also secure (usually they 
admit only personnel whose magnetically coded employee ID badge is on the 
authorized list in a central computer).  The main everyday features of 
starship security will not be any more annoying than that.  Getting caught 
violating ship's security will be dramatically more undesirable than 
violating office security normally is.


>And in any case, a car can be insured against theft even if it doesn't
>have steering locks, a car alarm and an immobiliser fitted, so why can't
>a starship? Yes, your premium will be a tad higher, but unless theft of
>starships is commonplace stringent security won't be a *requirement* of
>insurance.

You mean unless theft of starships is expensive to the insurance 
company.  Since the insurer tends to be heavily, heavily invested at all 
times in order to maximize profits, having to pay out a mere Cr40,000,000 
will be a major inconvenience and probably affect that quarter's bottom 
line.  Rate schedules will reflect this.

Theft insurance riders for car insurance are usually relatively low to 
begin with, so the difference between $8/month and $14/month may not 
motivate many people to take the extra measures you mention.  Which 
measures are over and above the door locks and steering lock that are 
operated by your car keys.  But rates go up significantly or even 
dramatically when you have a very expensive car, a car model that is very 
popular among thieves, or are within an easy drive of the Mexican border 
(for those of us in the States).  Even if the theft insurance is a very 
small percentage of the ship's value, it will be a very large amount of 
ship's expense each month.  And even more troublesome in Imperial border 
regions near places like the Vargr Extents or systems not belonging to any 
organized empire.

A fundamental principle of property insurance is to reimburse the insured 
100% of the value of their loss.  If the insured has nothing to lose then 
loss claims become incredibly frequent.  If the insured has to carry a 
signicant portion of the loss of a spaceship, you can bet that ships' 
owners will go to some trouble to make sure it never happens to them.

(Thus, a good bounty hunter scenario for recovering stolen ships would be a 
ship's owner who has incurred a loss and already been reimbursed the 90% of 
fair market value that's as much as she'll ever get hires bounty hunters to 
recover the ship.  Payment will be to split all profits from selling the 
recovered ship, after first making up the 10% that wasn't insured and then 
covering all expenses incurred.  If the ship can still be sold for its 
original fair market value, that's a huge profit.)


>There is a world of difference between a safe ship and a secure one, and
>all STC will be concerned with is safety.

Not sure who STC is.  Starport Authorities and local governments will be 
concerned that terrorists or wackos don't hijack a ship and crash it into 
something (the high port, the duke's residence, the financial district of 
the most important city) either intentionally or through ineptness.  That's 
part of safety.  Another part of safety is ensuring the ship is kept in 
good operating order and run in a responsible manner, and security logs 
will be helpful in determining that (are watches being stood?  are 
equipment inspections being kept up with?  do unauthorized personnel get 
access to equipment or controls?).  Lenders and insurers will be concerned 
to prevent ship loss from the investment point of view.  Sector and 
subsector dukes may have additional concerns, which might be felt through 
increased Starport Authority regulations, or through influencing local 
governments to implement other regulations.

I imagine that ship owners may put a clause in crew employment contracts 
that actually penalizes crewmen X months of salary if the ship is 
stolen.  All the crew and officers, not just whoever is found 
culpable.  The ship owners are motivated to prevent theft because of 
financial incentive.  They'll seek to put crew and officers in the same 
position.

(Hmm, one racket would be owner and crew cooperating to make the ship seem 
to be stolen, get their 80% or 90% from the insurance company, then the 
crew goes off as bounty hunters and "recovers" the ship from the "thieves", 
they sell the ship for nearly it's fair market value, and they've just made 
a profit of circa 80% of the value of a ship.  This will be an easy racket 
unless law enforcement and insurers are doing thorough jobs at every step 
of the way.  And even then it will still occasionally happen.)

I'm going to file this email separately for its adventure seeds and routine 
starship operations information.  Thank you for getting me to write it.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 11:19:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 10:19:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F210WagewMS59IvqvIy000169c3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409130304.027d16f0@pop.wizard.net>

Sam D on comparative accuracies between different military rifles:
>But as to your basic point that an M1 gets better accuracy than an M16A1, 
>as far as issue weapons I would not be too sure.  The M16's action 
>probably gives better accuracy.  Also, the M1's wood stock is not so great 
>when you do a lot of firing.  The M16 has much less recoil.  On the other 
>hand, the M16 is lousy if you are using a sling (because the sling 
>connects to the front sight which is connected directly to the barrel) and 
>it has a very thin barrel.  I bet the M16A2, with the heavy barrel, does 
>better than the Garand though.

I'd be very surprised if the M-16 shoots better on the 800-yard or -meter 
line (800 is not part of normal rifle qual, just competitions).  Even the 
M-16A2, with slightly heavier barrel, much better twist to the rifling for 
long-range accuracy, and slightly different load should be poorer than the 
M-14.  Oh, and let's not forget the A2's butt being three-eighths of an 
inch longer than the A1.  Skilled shooters can fire the 14 from the 1,000 
and that's something that's pretty ridiculous with the 16.  Not having 
fired the M-14, I can't speak to things like the furniture or the sight 
arrangement.  I imagine differences between the sight designs can make a 
pretty big difference to performance on the range.

I understand that current M-16s in U.S. service have these (IMHO 
ridiculous) three-round-burst limiters.  Which makes the trigger action a 
little bit different between first, second, and third shots of each 
burst.  The range coaches who I talked to about it said they were advising 
people to hand load each round during slow fire.  In between each round 
they would dry fire the weapon twice.  That way, you were always at the 
same point in the three-round sequence when you actually fired a 
round.  The one time I qualified with the A2 instead of A1, I forgot about 
that little routine.  The A2 still improved my score by about 5 points.  I 
also did a full course of fire not for qualification with the A2 and saw my 
score jump up about the same.  Although, come to think of it, I was less 
than satisfied with my groups from the 500-yard line.  Doh.  Only took 
fifteen years to figure that one out.  :->

ObTrav.  Something the referee in my current PBEM game does do.  Until a 
character has spent time on a range "sighting in" aka "zeroing" a new 
weapon, she should get accuracy penalties when using it, although the 
penalty should be neglible at short range.  A skilled character who takes 
several hours to sight in may be eligible for an accuracy bonus.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 11:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 10:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F84ekOtJI52I0jYn6hx00003845@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409132133.027d0ec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 07:08 AM 4/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>laning writes:
>
>>Anyway, I was told by the people who
>>randomly checked the ammo that reached the front-line troops that we were
>>typically getting 2100 fps, and it wasn't very unusual to get under 1800
>>fps.
>
>Were you getting a lot of failures to feed?  I am just wondering if such 
>weak ammo could get the action to cycle reliably.

Nope.  Well, define 'a lot'.  I've had them occur on the rifle range.  Less 
than say five(?) times.  It was a lot of years ago now to be trying to 
remember this.


>>How is this data verified or acquired, please?  I'm just curious to get
>>another data point, not being accusatory or argumentative.  :->
>
>This is from my rifle with a chronograph, and recent surplus ammo 
>(1999-2001 production for LC; I think the WCC was older, like 1991).
>
>>Muzzle velocity for government ammo for the A1 was just over 2700 fps.
>
>While there may have been some bad ammo, I do not think the spec for the 
>55 grain ammo (M193) has changed since the round was first 
>standardized.  It has always required a muzzle velocity of 3250 fps, 
>measured 15' from the muzzle (from TM 43-0001-27).  The new 62 grain round 
>(M1855) is supposed to go 3025 fps, measured 78 feet from the muzzle.

That 2700 figure was what our manuals from boot camp taught us and was a 
very frequent question during inspections in boot camp and afterwards.  I 
want to 2,710 but I still can't remember the precise figure.  And yeah, my 
1980 edition of 'Cartridges of the World' thinks M193 ammo had a 3,250 
muzzle velocity also.  Interesting that the Marine Corps _officially_ 
taught us it was a much lower number.  One explanation is that Marine Corps 
was continuing to be forced to accept ammo lots that it considered 
substandard at 2,710 while the contractor continued to insist he was 
delivering 3,250 and the dispute was dragging on during my tenure in the Corps.

I think when the manufacturer sells 'surplus' ammo they know precisely 
whether a shipment will be delivered to commercial sellers or to the 
government.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.


>Interestingly, most modern militaries are adopting 5.56 rifles and 
>dropping the bigger calibers.  This is even true of weapons like the FAL 
>which could, with some work, be made as flexible as far as mounting optics 
>and accessories as the M16A4 or M4.
>
>It makes me wonder a little if the Army decided that infantry are not that 
>effecive anyway, so it might as well give the boys something that shoots 
>lightweight ammo.  On the other hand, maybe they think 5.56 is enough, 
>because if someone has a hole in them, even a .22 hole, they will be out 
>of action.  Whichever is the case, most other armies seem to be buying 
>into it too.

Yes, both of your suggestions make a lot of sense in light of what the 
popular wisdom is at the government think tanks that largely influence 
these decisions.  "Aimed fire is no more effective than unaimed fire in 
battlefield situations."  and "An army loses more than three soldiers from 
action each time someone is wounded, in order to medevac and care for that 
wounded soldier."

In fact, with that last popular nugget of wisdom, one can easily imagine 
the paper pushers deciding it's _better_ to have a rifle that results in 
more wounds than kills, and stopping power isn't even part of the 
decision.  It's a Dilbert world.

My ObTrav here is some planetary militaries opting for patently 
underpowered weapons on the theory that they should always be trying to 
inflict a wound and never a kill.  Take it near a ridiculous 
extreme.  Perhaps the player characters are in a mercenary unit that goes 
up against them, and after getting some battle experience against them, can 
only muse wonderingly and pity the poor bastards they're fighting 
against.  Or the player characters are in a city that is under attack by 
irregular forces much like the Boers from 1902 (people grew up with 
shooting and take weapon deadliness very seriously).  They feel secure 
enough, since the planetary government forces defending the city vastly 
outnumber the irregular and have much more sophisticated equipment 
besides.  Things grow tense as the irregulars' siege of the city gets 
tighter and tighter and the fighting starts coming in earshot of their 
hotel.  No vehicles, aircraft, or spacecraft are entering or leaving the 
city.  Rumors of war crimes being committed by ever more angry irregulars 
are growing.  (They're angry because their friends and family often they 
themselves are getting wounded.  They're _not_ spending three guys to take 
care of one wounded guy, because they're irregulars and don't have that 
kind of luxury.)

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 11:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Apr  9 10:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <200204091244.AA102170826@caddocourt.com>

>     Why there's nothing to apologize for, sir!  Your post was perfectly 
>alright, I didn't feel it to be anything but correct in both form and tone.

Oh good!  Thank you for clearing that up.

[ big snip ]
>     "They would, however, without hesitation do a deep penetration to wipe 
>out an enemy world.  Or several."
>
>     I see the problem with using the Trigger against the Zhos (or 
>Imperials) as one of strategic depth.  How many Triggers would take to 
>dissuade a very large opponent from continuing his assault on you?
> ... , but would that cause 
>him to cease his assaults or would he be more likely to visit genocide upon 
>you and yours?

I don't think the Darrians would be using the Star Trigger against the
Zhodani or the Imperium unless they already knew they were dead.  (Or
at least believed they were.)  As you mentioned before, there is nothing
it can do in its operation that will let the Darrians win such a war.

The whole point with the Zhodani (and, by extension, the Imperium) is
that its presence will prevent the war from ever starting in the first
place.  If you know that conquering the Darrians will be that expensive
(and the ramifications will continue to happen for years to come), you
have to really want the Darrians dead.  In other words, it escalates
the price of victory the Zhodani or Imperium would have to pay to
conquer the Darrians.  It can never win the war once it has started.

Of course, the other "fun" use of the Star Trigger is to intimidate
small (single system) governments like Nonym and (before they were an
Imperial client state) Garoo.

[ this is out of context, but ...]
>...  It took years for 
>results to travel beyond the intial system, not that the warning helped any.

The problem for the Darrians with the Maghiz was that there was only a
single shipyard and a single industrial base for the entire Confederation:
Darrian.  Once it was destroyed, the colonies had no way to get new ships
or technological goods.  They were all stuck.

The Imperial or Zhodani worlds would not be so hard hit since there would
always be other worlds to get stuff from.  They would be able to recover
in a much more quickly.

>     "I imagine the Darrians would be pragmatic enough to have a mass 
>"suicide" to keep the secret.  I figure some of those in the "suicide" 
>really did commit real suicide after making sure the "suicides" took place."
>
>     Omigosh!  Someone who can think nearly as "evilly" as me!

While I do probably fit that description, in this case I would call this
"evil", so much as purely pragmatic.

Another way to look at it is that the scientists literal bet their lives 
that they could create the Star Trigger.  They lost the bet and paid the
price, but at least had a measure of success.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 12:58 AM 4/9/02 -0700, you wrote:

>A gaming system where everybody contributes rules like
>linux? That's a great idea. Wish I could program.
>People are still gonna argue rules and realism though.

The latest edition of D&D made some hype about going to this back when it 
was announced and the public buzz about Linux was at its peak.  I don't 
really follow D&D and don't know where that stands now.

That suggestion does not have to have anything to do with programming the 
rules for computers.  Just writing game rules.  There needs to be a 
centralized repository for distributing the rules.  Web site, news group, 
mailing list.  The contributors to that forum need to early on establish 
some protocols that, if followed, keep contributors writing rule sections 
that are compatibility with the other rule sections.

For example, weapon design rules have to produce results within parameters 
that can be used any combat rules which in turn have to produce results 
that can be used with any rules describing character attributes, in terms 
of taking wounds and in terms of determining hits and damage.

There are some problems that make such a project very different from 
open-source programming of a Unix variant.

With programming, the contributions have to at least compile, and not crash 
when launched.  This filters out a lot underqualified contributors right 
there.  No such built-in logic checks preventing junk contributions of game 
rules.

There are a _lot_ more people who think they can design a game than there 
are people who think they can write a computer program.  Professional game 
designers are aware of this phenomenon and are also aware that a huge 
number of self proclaimed game designers don't have the least concept of 
some important fundamentals.

These first two things suggest that a huge percentage of junk 
contributions.  Much more so than with Linux.

Having a much larger population of people who think they can write rules 
could lead to vast numbers of rule contributions.  The sheer number can be 
a problem.  OTOH, if only a small percentage of contributions are good then 
it's a good thing there are so many contributions.  :->

There is less motivation for people to write rule contributions.  A 
successful Linux contribution is more likely to be personally gratifying, 
and is an extremely helpful thing to have on your resume and a useful 
professional growth experience in a well-paid profession.  A game rules 
contribution isn't very helpful to most persons' careers, and is arguably 
less gratifying in terms of fame or the satisfaction of being published.

The market for (war and roleplaying) games is orders of magnitude smaller 
than the market for computer software.

Establishing even the basic intent of the protocols is a puzzling 
task.  Linux had the advantage of imitating an established and mature 
operating system at its start.  Is the open source roleplaying game going 
to be highly cinematic and intended to keep player characters alive but 
slaughter....never mind.  I guess if the protocol cleverly defines how 
modules plug into each other, then you can let players mix and match 
modules themselves.

Bug reporting of Linux contributions can be automated and reports sent via 
the Internet easily.  Bug reporting of game designs is much more problematical.

That's what comes to mind.

It's got me to thinking about how to organize it though.  If I had more 
energy for the project, I'd go advertise in various Internet locations, 
magazines, game shops, and game conventions, set up the Web site and 
mailing list, etc.  Oh yeah, and if I had the money for those thing.  If 
enough people start participating, it might be a worthwhile experiment.

Not sure if I remember the original Linus Thorvald's post accurately enough 
to make this paraphrase work.  "Remember the good old days when real men 
wrote their own game rules?..."

One last thing.  I have some hesitation about whether it's a good idea to 
even trying to make open source game design work.  If it works, it isn't 
like stealing market share from Bill Gates.  It's making it impossible for 
guys like Loren Wiseman to earn a living in the industry.  We won't have 
any full time RPG designers anymore.  Which probably means a lot of 
important and good contributions to RPGs will never take place.  As a 
concept, open source game design seems like a desirable thing for gaming if 
it can be made to work.  The devil is in the details.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here
 name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <20020408234503.A15920@4dv.net>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
 <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409141814.027d2810@pop.wizard.net>

> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> > were born.

Lanpo Lannap.  I do not want to be called Lanpo.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Penguin Sighting
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409142253.027d5410@pop3.isicns.com>

'Shackleton' is being run in two parts on A&E repeatedly from this past 
weekend through April 19th.  Originally from Channel 4 in the U.K.

Numerous penguin sightings and references!

Including the classic when the photographer and Shackleton (played by 
Brannagh), are sorting through all their photographic negatives, made of glass.

Shackleton, in tired complaint:  "_Not_ another penguin."  Smash.

It even opens with a genuine, 100% pure, certified penguin joke, albeit in 
German and with no subtitles.  Most of us will have to pay close attention 
to eke out enough meaning to understand it.

Actual ObTravs should be abundantly obvious while viewing the show.  Chock 
full of adventure seeds and NPCs.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:17:35PM -0400
References: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:17:35PM -0400, laning wrote:
>
> I have some hesitation about whether it's a good idea to even trying
> to make open source game design work.  If it works, it isn't like
> stealing market share from Bill Gates.  It's making it impossible
> for guys like Loren Wiseman to earn a living in the industry.  We
> won't have any full time RPG designers anymore.  Which probably
> means a lot of important and good contributions to RPGs will never
> take place.

Open source and free software aren't about winning market share from
Bill Gates--they're about doing the right thing (or rather, doing a
more right thing).  I don't think that anyone will argue that it's
more moral to give away than the sell; in fact, I can think of few
schools of thought other than Objectivism which would so argue.  It's
not wrong to charge for one's labour (how else could one eat?)--but it
is better to give it away.

No-one should ever be forced to give away his labour--that would be
slavery.  But OTOH it must be recognised that if _I_ give mine away,
then _you_ will have a hard time selling yours.  But that is, to be
quite honest, your problem.


And a _lot_ of important and free contributions to RPGs took place
back in the old net days--ever read the Net.Books
<http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/byzantium/55/index2.htm#bluetroll>?
The vast majority were written by players for players.

In the software world, we've moved from proprietary everything, to
open standards for proprietary components on top of proprietary
platforms (POSIX when it first came about) to open standards for open
components on top of proprietary platforms (the GNU tools on top of
POSIX) to open standards for open components on top of open platforms
(Linux and *BSD).


Games are already fairly open.  Despite certain companies' wishful
thinking, a game is already an open standard, in that anyone can
create materials compatible with it.  That's a lot of what we're doing
here on the TML, isn't it?  And yet no-one claims that we are stealing
from Messrs. Miller or Wiseman, or that they are unable to make a
living.

Steffan O'Sullivan seems to have done well with FUDGE, a system which
is truly free (in the sense of freedom), yet which is also sold.
There's a lot of value added to a book vs. a computer file--much more
than that added to software by boxing it up vs. putting it online.

Even SJ Games have a free summary of the most basic of GURPS rules
available.  I imagine that sales of GURPS Basic Set are rather dwarfed
by sales of the myriads of supplements they put out.  And how many of
us would really stop buying RPGs just because they might be available
online?

Heck, I just spent more than $200 for HackMaster's Player's Guide,
DM's Guide and Vols. 1-VII of the Hacklopaedia, despite the fact that
I'll never play it in my life.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
While I was at University in Lancaster, the International Committee of
the Red Cross was having a campaign to stop other organisations using
the name 'red cross' and served a 'cease and desist' notice on the Red
Cross Inn in Lancaster.  The innkeeper turned round and pointed out that
the Red Cross Inn (founded, like most other pubs of the same name, by a
returning crusader) had been trading under that name for more than seven
hundred and fifty years, and politely asked how long they'd been using
it.  The ICRC retired hurt.                             --Simon Brooke

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:53:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:53:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3623@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Just read MJ Dougherty's short story at:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/Fiction/Dougherty/secrets.html

I can just SEE this as a short film :)  Could be done with a very moderate
budget, especially if Harry got changed to a human character instead of
Vargr.  Granted, that's half the fun of the piece, but it'd be a lot easier
& cheaper to do if he were human.

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Geoff @ MotionBlur)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3623@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOIEELCHAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>

Animate it =)

Geoff McDonald
President
MotionBlur Animation Ltd.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of DeGraff, Jesse
> Sent: April 9, 2002 11:52 AM
> To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
> Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
>
>
> Just read MJ Dougherty's short story at:
> http://www.travellerrpg.com/Fiction/Dougherty/secrets.html
>
> I can just SEE this as a short film :)  Could be done with a very moderate
> budget, especially if Harry got changed to a human character instead of
> Vargr.  Granted, that's half the fun of the piece, but it'd be a
> lot easier
> & cheaper to do if he were human.
>
> Jesse
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3624@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

You're the professional animator, I just do stills ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff @ MotionBlur [mailto:mcdonald@motionblur.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:55 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Oh dear....


Animate it =)

Geoff McDonald
President
MotionBlur Animation Ltd.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 09, 2002 03:51:13 PM
Message-ID: <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
> > an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
> > move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
> > suppression, they move toward each other much faster
> > than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
> > I wrong?
> 
> If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
> on each ion, then it is true.
> 
> If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
> to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
> factor of 10.

Under the premise of the inertial suppression idea, inertia
is defined as the electromagnetic drag caused by mass accellerating
through the zero point field (essentially due to subatomic interactions
with virtual photons). So, if this were the case, it might hold true
that the EM force would be reduced by inertial suppression, at least if
one assumes that EM forces are transferred via virtual photons, sort of
like the way waves on the ocean are transferred through the water
molecules making up the waves (you physicists on the list can probably
laugh at this statement... I'm really showing my ignorance here). Anyway,
off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to make this
work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the square-root of the
inertial suppression factor. If we make that handwave, which is
certainly a god-being-nice type to rule to make, then I'd imagine
that we've got gravity & EM both covered. However, if anyone can
provide a counterexample, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Also, there's still the weak and strong forces to think about. Since
weak is purportedly linked to EM, one would expect some sort of similar
square-root drop off. As for the strong force, I have no idea. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F107T456UnHAaaz7EjQ000157ce@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>I'd be very surprised if the M-16 shoots better on the 800-yard or -meter
>line (800 is not part of normal rifle qual, just competitions).>Even the
>M-16A2, with slightly heavier barrel, much better twist to the rifling for
>long-range accuracy, and slightly different load should be poorer than the
>M-14.

As the distance gets longer, wind has its effect on the little 5.56 much 
more than the 7.62.  But the usual distances in match competitions is 200, 
300 and 600 yards, at which distances the M16 is supreme.  It is possible to 
get superior accuracy at even longer ranges with the M16, but they have to 
use very heavy bullets (80 grains+) that will not fit in the M16 mags.  As 
you talked about in your post, the M16 becomes a single shot.  With this 
proviso, the M16 is beating the M14 at all ranges now in competitions.  I 
think they are even getting good results at 1,000 yards, but these are 
obviously not issue weapons.

Anyway, when we are talking 1,000 yards we are really talking about ranges 
for snipers, not infantry.

>Skilled shooters can fire the 14 from the 1,000
>and that's something that's pretty ridiculous with the 16.

Certainly ridiculous for me.  An M14 would have to be pretty tweaked to 
consistantly make shots like that, and you would need optics.  It is a very 
poor platform for optics and the M14 needs constant maintanence to keep 
excellent accuracy.  The M16, on the other hand, once accurized needs little 
upkeep and it is a great platform for optics.  But you are certainly right 
that it is not going to bowling them over at 1,000 yards.

>I understand that current M-16s in U.S. service have these (IMHO
>ridiculous) three-round-burst limiters.  Which makes the trigger action a
>little bit different between first, second, and third shots of each
>burst.

The trigger pull is the same for every shot in semi-auto.  These "match" 
rifles I am talking about will usually have a special double stage trigger 
installed.  Otherwise, the standard M16 trigger, like most military 
triggers, is really too heavy for serious accuracy.

I always thought it was interesting in Striker that they have a 7mm assault 
rifle (which seems to be a FAL/G3/M14 type weapon), a 5mm assault rifle 
(M16), and then skip entirely the most popular assault rifle of all time 
(AK-47).  What are all of the guerillas supposed to be armed with?

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl quotes me and replies:
>On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:17:35PM -0400, laning wrote:
> >
> > I have some hesitation about whether it's a good idea to even trying
> > to make open source game design work.  If it works, it isn't like
> > stealing market share from Bill Gates.  It's making it impossible
> > for guys like Loren Wiseman to earn a living in the industry.  We
> > won't have any full time RPG designers anymore.  Which probably
> > means a lot of important and good contributions to RPGs will never
> > take place.
>
>Open source and free software aren't about winning market share from
>Bill Gates--they're about doing the right thing (or rather, doing a
>more right thing).  I don't think that anyone will argue that it's
>more moral to give away than the sell; in fact, I can think of few
>schools of thought other than Objectivism which would so argue.  It's
>not wrong to charge for one's labour (how else could one eat?)--but it
>is better to give it away.
>
>No-one should ever be forced to give away his labour--that would be
>slavery.  But OTOH it must be recognised that if _I_ give mine away,
>then _you_ will have a hard time selling yours.  But that is, to be
>quite honest, your problem.

I had no wish to get into philosophical theory.  I do wish to point out who 
is affected by an effort that results in taking market share from 
professional game designers.  Regardless of their original intent.  It will 
be the folks like Loren who live on a shoestring instead of folks like Bill 
Gates who already has more money than he has a purpose for.  I believe that 
a lot of people new to the situation rather expect that gaming companies 
are big faceless corporations with deep pockets, when really they are just 
the opposite.

I do not adopt that attitude of "Tough luck, Mac" if I do something for my 
own amusement (gaming as a hobby) that puts good and decent people of 
personal acquaintance (Loren) out on the street.  I don't know if your "But 
that is...your problem" remark was intended to sound quite as callous as it 
came across to me in print, but that's just me, and as you say that's my 
problem.  I'm not losing any sleep over it.  My issue is this.  If people 
are going to make a choice with profound consequences, then they should be 
aware of what those consequences are.  A successful effort to publish 
open-source game designs will kill an industry that is fairly marginal by 
replacing it with people who do it for a hobby.  I'd wager a lot of 
would-be participants in open-source gaming are not aware of that 
consequence prior to someone pointing it out.



>And a _lot_ of important and free contributions to RPGs took place
>back in the old net days--ever read the Net.Books
><http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/byzantium/55/index2.htm#bluetroll>?
>The vast majority were written by players for players.

I was not aware of that, and will look at the link later today, thanks.



>Games are already fairly open.  Despite certain companies' wishful
>thinking, a game is already an open standard, in that anyone can
>create materials compatible with it.  That's a lot of what we're doing
>here on the TML, isn't it?  And yet no-one claims that we are stealing
>from Messrs. Miller or Wiseman, or that they are unable to make a
>living.

Very good point.  To be fair, there are times we've had pretty heated IP 
debates about whether something is being stolen from them.  And the harm it 
does to their ability to make a living usually gets mentioned in those 
debates.  And the people who were breaking the law haven't always ceased 
nor desisted.


>Steffan O'Sullivan seems to have done well with FUDGE, a system which
>is truly free (in the sense of freedom), yet which is also sold.
>There's a lot of value added to a book vs. a computer file--much more
>than that added to software by boxing it up vs. putting it online.

Good point about added value.  I have no idea whether Steffan O'Sullivan is 
making a living at it or not.  I don't hear him complaining, but that 
doesn't mean a thing, since where I would go to notice such a complaint.

>Even SJ Games have a free summary of the most basic of GURPS rules
>available.  I imagine that sales of GURPS Basic Set are rather dwarfed
>by sales of the myriads of supplements they put out.  And how many of
>us would really stop buying RPGs just because they might be available
>online?
They didn't give it away until after they'd established the market for 
GURPS and had said myriads of supplements.

I can envision a real world way of developing RPG open source designs that 
will compete directly with _all_ RPG publications, and would evolve over 
time to be superior to them in most instances.  Online availability and 
printing and binding in your home is still a novelty and is far from 
reaching full 'market penetration'.  How many of us would actually pay for 
a $20 rule book that we can print and bind for less than a tenth of 
that?  A few yes, but the majority would take the cheaper option.

....leading to electronic publishing discussions but I don't know if that's 
relevant to this discussion or not.


>Heck, I just spent more than $200 for HackMaster's Player's Guide,
>DM's Guide and Vols. 1-VII of the Hacklopaedia, despite the fact that
>I'll never play it in my life.
You display a trait common in our hobby, but very few of us spend like 
that.  I suspect you have far more disposable income than most gamers.  And 
I don't suppose those volumes were available online.

In summary, you raise excellent points that do make a difference.  But if 
your intent is prove open-source RPG design is a stillborn idea, I don't 
think you've chosen compelling arguments.  If your intent was to explode my 
own points as invalid, you haven't convinced me that they are.

I think the real difficulties of moving the idea forward is lack of 
concentrated energy among people who have the right skills.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:48:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:48:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F51yTB0lrvpLA0sOVtS000096e4@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>I think when the manufacturer sells 'surplus' ammo they know precisely
>whether a shipment will be delivered to commercial sellers or to the
>government.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The WCC I have, which is produced by Olin, was for a foreign government 
contract that never made it out of the country for some reason.  It came 
linked, with tracers.  :)

Lake City is a government owned facility that is operated by a contractor 
(currently Federal).  I don't think they are supposed to be making private 
sales of the stuff.  From what I hear, the diversion to commercial suppliers 
is being stopped by the government.  Much of it is in Federal packaging, but 
some of the older stuff is packaged in 30 round boxes with stripper clips, 
ready to be issued to the troops.

Really, you guys are shocking me with all of this talk of low velocity 5.56 
ammo.  I have never heard anybody mention this before, and I have been 
around and been interested in the weapon for a while now.  If you have or 
know of any sources for this info, I would sure like to see it.  Off list if 
you prefer.  Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409115948.027e20f0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B73@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409151639.02480008@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:01 PM 4/9/2002, laning wrote:
>[A ship owner who has] incurred a loss and been reimbursed the 90% of fair 
>market value [...] hires bounty hunters to recover the ship.  Payment will 
>be to split all profits from selling the recovered ship, after first 
>making up the 10% that wasn't insured and then covering all expenses incurred.

No; the insurance company will guard against scams of this nature by 
insisting that, if the ship is recovered after the claim is paid, it 
belongs to the insurance company and not the insured.  In this case, the 
insurance company will generally sell the ship, and if (after deducting the 
expenses related to recovering and selling it) the insurance company 
recovers more than the 90% of the fair market value that they paid for the 
claim, the extra monies are split in some way (that will vary from policy 
to policy) between the insurance company, the people who recovered the 
ship, and the original owners.

Bounty hunters can work for or with insurance companies, or for the 
owner.  If the ship can be recovered quickly, inexpensively, and with 
little damage, the  owner can recover the ship without having to make a 
claim - the only cost is the cost of the recovery fee (maybe into the 
hundreds of thousands of credits).  But, in general, the ship will not be 
so easily recovered (or once recovered, will not be in the condition it was 
when it was stolen).

So, ship owners will generally want to file a claim, and let the insurance 
company worry about recovering the ship.  Recovering and selling the ship - 
even at a fraction of it's full value represents a huge reduction in the 
insurance company's loss.  Thus, they will tend to employ bounty hunters 
and skip tracers to recover ships, and some type of fee-splitting 
arrangement that provides an incentive for the bounty hunters to recover 
the ship with as much of it's original value as possible.  This would 
probably involve a salary, retainer, or base fee for any recovery (again, 
maybe ranging into the hundreds of thousands of credits), plus a bonus if 
the ship's resale value exceeds the company's cost for the claim and recovery.

This does leave open one possible scam - the owner or crew could "steal" 
their own ship, abandon it, file an insurance claim and take their 
90%.  Once the ship is recovered, if they can re-purchase it at auction for 
less than 90% of original market value, the original owners will now own 
the ship free and clear, plus some amount of profit.  On the other hand, 
the ship may now be in need of expensive re-certification and other work to 
make it space worthy.  Not to mention the cost of increased insurance 
premiums ... and the amount of scrutiny that they will get from insurance 
and law enforcement.

>One racket would be owner and crew cooperating to make the ship seem to be 
>stolen, get their 80% or 90% from the insurance company, then the crew 
>goes off as bounty hunters and "recovers" the ship from the "thieves", 
>they sell the ship for nearly it's fair market value, and they've just 
>made a profit of circa 80% of the value of a ship.

Nope - first off, the insurance company will investigate the heck out of 
this scenario.  In the second case, the proceeds from the sale of the ship 
will go to the insurance company, and only a tiny fraction will be paid to 
the "bounty hunters".  In general, the amount they'd see from this scam 
(90% insurance payment plus 0%-2% recovery bonus) will be less than if 
they'd sold the ship outright at fair market value.

In theory, this scenario can be used to scam the bank of a ship which is 
subject to a mortgage.  The ship is "stolen" by it's own crew, the 
insurance pays the bank note off (leaving the crew ship-less and 
mortgage-less).  It is then "recovered" by the crew, who get paid a 
recovery fee or bonus by the insurance company.  This isn't nearly enough 
for a new ship (or even a down payment on one), but could still be a nice 
amount of money.  Even in this case, I'm sure the bank and insurance 
company would investigate, and may even "blackball" the captain and crew, 
so that they cannot obtain another bank mortgage on a ship easily.  It will 
probably still happen - but not often.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092000.DSB05659@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>
>As the distance gets longer, wind has its effect on the 
>little 5.56 much more than the 7.62.  But the usual 
>distances in match competitions is 200, 300 and 600 yards, 
>at which distances the M16 is supreme.  It is possible to 
>get superior accuracy at even longer ranges with the M16, 
>but they have to use very heavy bullets (80 grains+) that 
>will not fit in the M16 mags.  As you talked about in your 
>post, the M16 becomes a single shot.  With this 
>proviso, the M16 is beating the M14 at all ranges now in 
>competitions.  I think they are even getting good results at 
>1,000 yards, but these are obviously not issue weapons.
>

I've shot for fun at ranges where state police were 
practicing with their mouse guns.  I was using a Remington 
700 Police DM in .308, with a new barrel.  Past 300 yards, 
there was an incremental advantage, which really opened up at 
about 500 yards (hey, there really IS a morning glory effect).

They were not smirking afterwards.  They wanted my weapon.

>Anyway, when we are talking 1,000 yards we are really 
>talking about ranges for snipers, not infantry.
>

OK.  But how do we identify these men if the basic weapon 
can't do half the sniper's range?

>Certainly ridiculous for me.  An M14 would have to be pretty 
>tweaked to consistantly make shots like that, and you would 
>need optics.  It is a very poor platform for optics and the 
>M14 needs constant maintanence to keep excellent accuracy.  

I never had a maintenance problem with the M-21, nor were the 
optics a problem.  I would recommend not taking off the 
sights (some mounts I saw later were silver soldered to 
prevent removal).  They are not "tweaked" so much as 
specifically chosen/selected and then "gone over" to be 
properly re-bedded (glass bedding certain areas).  A lot of 
factory rifles today (bolt-actions) come with aluminum 
bedding blocks as standard, and have higher quality barrels 
than virtually any military rifle.  So many of them are 
accurate enough "out of the box" to give any semi-auto (and 
this includes a tricked out M-16) a run for its money.

Even though Remington has had its quality control problems 
over the years, I could take virtually any Sendero model out 
of the box and out range anyone with a tricked out M-16.  
Mind you, this means that I would have to set up the shooting 
situation (ambush), but if I had the ability to start the 
fight at a distance and place of my choosing, I'm probably 
going to put several people down before any of the rounds 
come anywhere near me.  At that point, they'll be shooting at 
a target not much larger than a grapefruit, with a round that 
won't penetrate a sandbag at that range (the long bodied 
match rounds are not penetrators).

I am quite sure that if I had a suppressor (not completely 
quiet, but masking the point of origin of the shooting), and 
was using the Mark V M3 10x, and had the strap-on KN-250 
night vision scope, I would probably put down as many people 
as I had rounds in the magazine if the engagement was at 
night.  And that would be at a distance of over 600 yards.  
I'm not sure that the targets (coming out of an area known 
and already spotted) would have much chance of spotting me 
with naked eye, or anything short of thermals).  Just looking 
for me would be suicidal.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:39:44PM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409141022.A18068@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:39:44PM -0400, laning wrote:
>
> >No-one should ever be forced to give away his labour--that would be
> >slavery.  But OTOH it must be recognised that if _I_ give mine away,
> >then _you_ will have a hard time selling yours.  But that is, to be
> >quite honest, your problem.
> 
> I believe that a lot of people new to the situation rather expect
> that gaming companies are big faceless corporations with deep
> pockets, when really they are just the opposite.

No argument there--I've heard the stories.  Heck, a quick look through
con photos in any gaming mag proves the point:-)

But that doesn't matter.  Free software is not about sticking it to
Bill Gates; it's about free software.  Gaming is not about sticking to
to gaming companies (they're generally good people); it's about
gaming.

> I don't know if your "But that is...your problem" remark was
> intended to sound quite as callous as it came across to me in print,
> but that's just me, and as you say that's my problem.

I didn't mean it to sound callous, more as a statement of fact.  What
I meant is that if I produce work (which is my right) and I free it
(which is my right), then someone who produces work (which is his
right) and keeps it proprietary (which is also his right) will have to
do a _much_ better job than I do in order to compete.

I don't feel bad about that, any more than I would if I produced work
and simply sold it for less than the other guy.  I actually feel
_less_ bad, because I have given my work to the world, to do with as
it pleases.

Should Steve Jackson feel bad that he has made it very difficult for
another universal RPG system to be produced?  Of course not.  Should
Marc Miller feel bad that he has upped the ante for science fiction
roleplaying?  Certainly not!  Should Loren Wiseman feel bad that he
has set an incredible precedent for GURPS Traveller supplements?
Perish the thought.  Each has done a wonderful job, and each has made
it harder for another to succeed (a new universal RPG must be better
than GURPs; a new sci-fi RPG must have a better setting the the Third
Imperium; a new series of Traveller supplements must be better than
the GURPS line; these are all tall orders).

Should any of the above feel bad that their own brilliant success has
made it more difficult for me to follow in their footsteps?  No.
Should I be upset?  No.

So what's the difference between them and me?  Don't say that my own
IP is not as precious to me as to them.  I love travlib dearly.  It's
the best work I've ever produced.

If they should not feel bad about out-competing me, why should I feel
bad about out-competing them?  If I should not feel bad that they
out-competed me, why should they feel bad if I out-compete them?

Not that I'd directly compete with any of the above.  I write
software, not supplements.  And yes, my hope is for my GPLed
Traveller-compatible software to enable a lot of other programmers to
write more Traveller-compatible software.  And it doesn't bother me
that this will make it more difficult for others to profit from
proprietary Traveller-compatible software.  Why should it, any more
than it bothers Stephen King that he's made it more difficult for
other to profit from horror novels?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Distracting factors leading to traffic accidents:
  - object or person outside the car 30%
  - adjusting the radio or CD player 11%
  - dealing with another occupant in the car 11%
  - cellular phones 1.5%
     --Highway Safety Research Center at the University of North Carolina

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:13:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:13:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
Message-ID: <F67WW92A0HoXONfjxJJ00006b11@hotmail.com>

Thomas Vickers wrote:

>I don't know about that. I saw a story on the History channel about a 
>Marine
>officer in Korea I think. He made his men take bayonet practice even though
>it was outdated.  They got pinned down on patrol and ran out of ammo.  THe
>officer led a successful bayonet charge up a hill which wiped out the North
>Koreans. That sounds a bit drastic, but useful.

I remember thinking one time when I was staring down the barrel of a .45, 
"thank God he does not have a knife."  Getting penetrated by a knife is 
somehow terrifying, and it also gives the wielder credible non-lethal 
options.  I think there have been several instances in recent times when 
bayonet charges have routed the enemy, even if no one actually got stabbed.  
A bayonet would be vital for handling prisoners, and possibly even reluctant 
heroes.  ;)

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:23:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:23:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408135946.02824dd0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D89BAB.38054%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 11:39 AM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to
> the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300
> feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the
> government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting.

Something is way wrong.  Spec velocity for M193 55gn ball is supposed to be
3250 fps.  You're saying it 2300?!  I've got a bunch of contract stuff.
I'll try to run it through the chrony this weekend.

Found some specs for military ammo:

     "U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition require a 55
grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity of 3,250 q 40 fps from a 20
inch test barrel measured 15 feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement
from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean radius at 200
yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates to approximately three MOA).
"Statistically average" M193 ranges from 1.2 to 1.6 inches mean radius,
which is equivalent to 1.8 to 2.4 MOA. "

     "NATO specifications for SS109 (U.S. M855) Ball require a 61.7 grain
(q 1.5 grains) with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,025 fps
(q 40 fps) from a 20 inch barrel 25 meters from the muzzle. Typical
velocity 15 feet from the M16A2's muzzle is around 3,100 fps. The accuracy
requirement from a test fixture equates to a maximum of approximately four
MOA over the 100 to 600 yard range. Typical accuracy of average lots in an
M16A2 is about 2+ MOA. This round must also penetrate a nominal 10 gauge
SAE 1010 or 1020 steel test plate at a range of at least 570 meters (623
yards). "
 
> I did all my reading on this topic over a dozen years ago, but I seem to
> recall that there has been plenty of reliable material published that
> debunked the notion of the magical differences causing the 5.56 to tumble,
> etc. when no other bullets were able to achieve the same effect.  I said
> that very poorly.  What I mean is that government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam
> had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other
> assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.

All rifle bullets tumble when transiting media.  The M193 round just does it
quicker.  I direct you to several like animal and ballistic studies that
confirm this.  Try The International wound ballistics association
publications or my personal favorite "Antipersonnel Weapons" published by
SIPRI.  There are some rather high speed photographs.

It should be noted that analysis of casualties in the Vietnam war showed the
5.56x45mm to be 11% more likely to produce a casualty (lethal) than
7.62x51mm.  Of course the NVA and VC may have just dragged off all the
bodies with 7.62 holes in them to confise us poor Americans.

> Including poorer 
> accuracy.  

What?!  The M-16 has consistently proved to have a smaller MOA than the M-14
since adoption and up to the present day.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
Message-ID: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Look at Shellshock.  It's just a combat system, but 
it's "free".  The idea is to get everyone to use it, and then 
sell them ancillary product.  In their case, selling "instant 
terrain", etc.

You would still need to defend the intellectual property 
rights of the "free" part of the game, or some game company 
would run off with it.

The core part of GURPS might as well be "free".  I think that 
SJ Games makes most of their money off of all of those 
supplements.  And you have to keep making new supplements in 
order to make money.  It's not an industry with a lot of 
margin in it, either.  Software is expensive to create, more 
so than any role-playing game.  We really should pay someone 
like Loren or Doug a LOT more money for their work.  Imagine 
if Loren was paid as much to write these things as I am paid 
to design software architectures.  Doug would be able to 
spend ALL of this time writing - which I know would radically 
improve his quality and output.  Not that it's bad -- but he 
wouldn't have to do *anything* else (well, maybe feed 
penguins).  And if he had any economic worries (believe me, 
real life intrudes), they might be a lighter burden if he 
knew he had decent medical insurance, paid vacation, and a 
steady income from what he loves to do.

Mind you, we would all run out and apply for the job if that 
were true.

What I would be willing to pay for is a more well-thought out 
game.  I was willing to pay over 500 dollars to accumulate 
the whole PCCS set of books, just to get a "combat system".  
Note that I said "just".  If I could get that detail and 
quality (or better) in a single book, I would gladly pay over 
100 dollars for it (heck, I paid 200 for the Riverside 
Shakespeare, and you can download Shakespeare plays).  I 
would much rather have that than an endless series of rule 
books.

OTOH, I do want an endless series of adventure books, 
background, etc.  I would pay 10 to 20 dollars a month for a 
subscription to a monthly edition of JTAS which would have to 
be equal in quality and depth to a non-gaming magazine 
(Precision Shooting).  Unfortunately, there are more 
benchrest shooters than Traveller players with money.

Given our numbers, and given what we really want and expect, 
we really need to reconsider the economic model.  And not 
just from the perspective of "let's go make a free game".

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:39:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:39:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
Message-ID: <B8D89F67.3805D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 12:46 PM, Sam Draper at samdraper@lansource.net wrote:
> 
> That is very interesting.  I have read in tests that little darts at high
> velocities are remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do
> little tissue damage.  But odd things happen at high velocities.  I'll see
> if I can dig up my source.

It depends on how well they are stabilized.  The trick is to make a
projectile stable in air, but unstable in tissue.  As tissue is about 800
times denser, this is generally not a problem.  As you are doubtlessly
aware, all projectiles tend to yaw, and this tendency is exacerbated when
transiting media.  The long, thin projectile tends to tumble and bend,
creating large permanent wound tracks.  Also, a quick review of Mach's
equation will show that retardation rates for these long projectiles are
high, meaning that more energy is dumped into the target more quickly.

Lastly, it is much easier to drive 'darts' at very high velocities. once a
projectile passes 1450 m/s, the speed of sound in tissue, there is a
dramatic increase in tissue damage.

See Charters & Charters (1976):

Experiments conducted with steel spheres at velocities around 2000 m/s
showed that such projectiles  "could be expected to have significantly
different wounding effect than larger spheres, with approximately the same
energy, impacting at about 750 m/s. The smaller spheres showed less
penetration in gelatin blocks, but much greater lateral damage."

And later: "This type of wound would be particularly disabling and may
require new approaches to debridement and wound closure."

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:48:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:48:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092046.DSD03610@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>     "U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition 
>require a 55 grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity 
>of 3,250 q 40 fps from a 20 inch test barrel measured 15 
>feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement
>from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean 
>radius at 200 yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates 
>to approximately three MOA).

back in 1989, we tested 5.56mm SS109 from four different 
M16A2 (we just got them) at 300 yards.  The range was 
outdoors, so wind was a factor.  The shooters were not your 
run of the mill soldiers.  The lesson was that shooting 
outdoors is not shooting in a test tunnel.  The average group 
size was over 12 inches (some people managed smaller - as 
small as 4 inches).

Using the M-21 without the scope, just NM iron sights, using 
M118 special ball, we all managed 3 to 4 inch groups.

I'm not sure what I would ascribe the difference to, other 
than quality of weapon and quality of ammunition.  

Something else to consider - there is a maximum degree of 
engineering tolerance that you can measure and control when 
manufacturing or reloading ammunition.  The reason that I 
stick to .30 caliber is that those tolerances have less 
effect on a larger, heavier round.  The bullet is larger and 
heavier, the case larger, and the powder charge heavier.  So 
if I vary by the same amount, there's less of an effect - 
more consistent ammunition.

Another reminder - in benchrest shooting, if you don't limit 
the magnification or weapon weight, people tend to the .22 
PPC.  It's an *extremely* accurate round out of extremely 
accurate rifles.  But as soon as the magnification is limited 
to 6x, or the weapons are firing from NM iron sights, 
the .308 rules, even over the 6mm PPC.  The .223 Remington - 
is not seen - in benchrest circles.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:53:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:53:05 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.110558.7F2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several 
> places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and 
> they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone 
> in the place.

"the rifle"?

What is it, a Barret .50 or something? 

> I went out and bought another one.  But it's not like the 
> place I work for now really needs to know that.  You really 
> are treated as a second-class citizen, just for owning a 
> firearm.

I'd be surprised if that happened around here.

> I don't know how Tod does it, or Mark, or some of the other 
> NFA holders.  People would jump out of their skins here if I 
> told them I was going to buy an NFA weapon.

Ok, *that* I can understand.

> ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because 
> people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.

I suspect that folks are still gonna get a bit uncomfortable around
folks who are "over-armed" for the situation. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:54:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:54:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <20020405.142533.-122687.3.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20409.111006.0U8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> How about oosik? 
>
> Say what??? What's Oosik??

It's the penis bone of walruses.

Yes, many mammals have a *real* "boner". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:55:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:55:50 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.111435.4V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the 
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of 
> war.  People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or 
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.  
> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their 
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full 
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in 
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything 
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).
>
> It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message 
> across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you 
> have to do.
>
> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their 
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like 
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to 
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough 
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their 
> ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on 
> the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay 
> waste to an advanced industrial society?

If they have reason to *expect* that sort of thing? 

A *lot*. Especially given that once nuclear damper tech is available,
decontamination is a matter of raising the decay rate of the fallout
and other contaminated material as high as you can without generating
more heat than you want to deal with. 

A planet is a *big* place. 

There's also the fact that if you do it to them, you'd better expect
them to return the favor.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:57:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:57:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020405164806.00a49df0@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <20409.112410.6E7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:20:15 -0700, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>
>>Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>>blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>>strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.
>
> Put me down as afraid of guns, then.  Being in the presence of a real, 
> functioning weapon makes me nervous.  In most circumstances, I would refuse 
> to even hold one.
>
> To some extent, this is probably because I was never acclimated to them as 
> a youth, through hunting or whatever.  But I am similarly nervous around 
> anything that can cause death or serious injury, even/especially by 
> accident or negligence.

Knives, chainsaw, cars, hammers, baseball bats....

> For example, I used to work at a gas station; part 
> of my job was refilling propane cylinders from the big tank out back.  I 
> hated it.  The stuff was cryo-cold, flammable, explosive, and under high 
> pressure.  I was trained for it, but I still hated it.

I used to work around stuff like hydrofluoric acid and 180 C baths of
concentrated caustic (NaOH/KOH mix). 

I was *cautious*. I wasn't scared.

Someone who *was* scared managed to splash himself with weak HF
solution *because* he was scared. Rather than lower the carrier
carefully into the bath by the handle, he'd *drop* them.

Rational caution is one thing. *Fear* is quite another.

> There's also the "with great power comes great responsibility" angle.
> I do not want or need the power to maim or kill another human being,
> or the responsibility that necessarily comes with it.

I take it that you don't drive then. 

Seriously. a car is a deadlier weapon than most guns.

> It's a lot harder to kill someone with a jacket.  Definitely not 
> impossible, but jackets are not primarily designed to apply deadly 
> force.  A firearm is, and I grant them all the respect they are due
> as a result.

Knives are primarily designed to cut flesh. It's all in how you use a
tool. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:58:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:58:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20409.114039.8S6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear 
> devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and 
> convincing reasons for it.

It takes an unreasonable amount of effort to damage a *planet*. 

Destroying cities and installations on or near the surface is easier,
but still, a lot of effort. 

You've got to realize that there are lots of places on earth, hell,
even in the US where you could set off the biggest nuke ever made, and
the folks a town or two over wouldn't notice anything but the fallout.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:59:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:59:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20409.114950.6a1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> But mutual destruction is not assured.  One side would have to win a 
> years-long naval campaign in order to deliver its nuclear warheads against 
> all the appropriate targets.  Strephon, from the comfort of his Capital 
> doesn't fear in the least for his own safety or his families in the event 
> of nuclear exchange with the Zhodani.  And the Vargr Extents are such a 
> hotheaded place that I cannot be convinced all the nuclear warheads that 
> have been in that region for centuries were never used due to its leaders' 
> very enlightened view about protecting civilization.  As the Sword Worlders 
> should have nuked whoever they were ticked at many times over by now.  And 
> the Aslan prize honor well above their own individual lives.  Aside from 
> cultural biases toward or away nuclear warfare, there have just been so 
> many _individual_ sophonts with their fingers on the button in different 
> times and places that it should have happened many times by now.

Remember, nuking a *planet* is about the same "scale" as nuking a
*city* now. At least relative to the sizes of the major players.

But it involves a *lot* more effort. We are talking tens to *hundreds*
of *thousands* of warheads. And that's just for a "sparse" coverage. 

A size 7 world is 7000 miles in diameter. That gives a surface area of
over 150 *million* square miles. That means that if you hit it with
10,000 warheads they'll average 125 miles apart!

With 100,000, they'll average a bit under 40 miles apart.

Planets are *big*.

> And in a way, the game's authors agree with that notion.  But only in 
> general.  There seems to be a lack of specific worlds that have actually 
> been thoroughly nuked over to go with the general history of 
> destruction.  Let me go through all the relevant canonical evidence that 
> come to my (sputtering and unreliable) memory to see what each one in turn 
> makes me think about how MAD affected things.
>
> The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:
> The Ancients War
> Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani
> Presumably the N Interstellar wars
> Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night
> Very early in Zhodani history
> Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) from 
> on Darrian

No, what happened to the Darrians was an accident. An induced solar
"flare" of incredible magnitude. Sort of a "mini-nova". 

> At least I think it was nukes with Darrian.  Or something just as 
> devastating, so the MAD concept would still apply.

Except the Darrians are the only ones who have the Star Trigger. 

> I can easily accept that enough time has passed since nuclear weapons were 
> used by the Ancients that we shouldn't look for reduced populations or 
> uninhabitable areas due to them.  But their war is an example of none of 
> the sides being deterred by MAD.
>
> The war against the Ziru Sirka should have left marks on various planets 
> that would have been mentioned elsewhere in canon.  It is an example of 
> just how geographically vast wars between interstellar powers are, and how 
> that makes MAD unlikely.
>
> There don't seem to be any worlds still showing mentionable signs of 
> nuclear weapons from the N Instellar Wars.  Ditto for examples from the 
> Long Night.

You are forgetting that with nuclear dampers, you can clean up the
radioactive contamination *easily*. and unless truly amazing numbers of
weapons are used, the actual *blast* damage will easily disappear on
something as big as a planet. 

> Darrian seems to be a good canonical instance of nuclear warfare happening 
> specifically somewhere, not just in a general way to somebody.

That wasn't anything as trivial as a nuclear war. The Maghiz clobbered
electronics and the like for *parsecs* from the Darrian home system.

> I find it hard to believe there are no famous specific examples of worlds 
> in the Core sector being "razed" by nukes dropped by one of the Barracks 
> Emperors or wannabes.  Civil wars tend to be the least civil, as the old 
> saying goes.

You are missing the *scale* of things. Dropping a nuke on a planet is
(relatively speaking) equivalent to throwing a grenade into a *room* of
a building in a city. At worst, blowing up a small building. 

You won't find the damage unless you *look* for it. 

> There are also quite a few canonical instances of balkanized worlds or 
> neighboring worlds that are on the brink of total nuclear warfare in the 
> current timeline.  If such tensions have careened towards the brink so 
> often in current times, how could they have been so consistently avoided 
> during the pasts of all the locations that canon visits and shows us.

Maybe they weren't. 

It's just that contrary to popular belief, anything short of the level
required to trigger something like a nuclear winter, *won't* be all
that noticeable even 300 years later. 

Even without damper tech, in 300 years high-level nuclear waste will be
no more radioactive than the original uranium ore. Stuff like fallout
would take careful tests to detect. The craters of surface blasts would
be detectable with radiation detectors. But only as areas a bit more
radioactive than normal. 

Bulldoze the dirt and rubble from the "total destruction" zone around
the crater into it (a good idea to both fill the hole and to help
"immobilize" the contaminated material) and it'd be hard to tell after
even a hundred years.

Remember, the more radioactive something is, the *shorter* the
half-life, and thus the quicker it becomes safe.

So, short of researching local history, or doing a *detailed* survey of
an area, you'd never know that there'd been a nuclear war unless it was
*really* bad.


Which reminds me. Some day I need to sit down and try to figure out
what would be required to produce a "burned off" world such as appears
in some of Norton's books. Especially something like "the Big Burn" on
Terra from "Plague Ship". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:01:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:01:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.121152.9P1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>      "Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani."
>
>      Canon is littered with references to the Vilani "way" of war being 
> brutally pragmatic.  IMHO, the Ziru Sirka would have used nukes early and 
> often.  Then again, I have trouble believing the canonical description of 
> the Interstellar War anyway.
>      GT:RoF has the Vilani visiting Terra after the 2nd War.  These 
> representatives of the ZS must have been either brain dead or traitors not 
> to bring an accurate report back to Dingir from Sol.  After being shown a 
> ~10 billion humans on an industrialized world, the "brutally pragmatic" 
> Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt.

Sorry, not *possible*. Not even the third Imperium has *that* kind of
firepower. 

It'd (barely) be possible to "pave" the surface, if you had *lots* of
time and money..

>      All the explanations about population levels, internal Vilani politics, 
> blah, blah, blah, are just liberal doses of handwavium.  With the 
> superioroty in maneuver drives and missile tech that RoF claims for them, 
> the Ziro Sirka would have, could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it 
> glowed.

Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
Millions, hundreds of millions.

>      Perhaps, or maybe it's just damper technology.  I don't have Striker to 
> hand, but IIRC dampers pretty much draw the fangs out of nukes.  How 
> easy/hard would it be for PDFs to maintain damper coverage for an entire 
> world?  Could such coverage be projected from orbit by naval vessels?  If 
> so, the 3I could show up above some balkanized world with a nasty squabble 
> taking place and declare a "no-nukes" zone with a couple of orbitting 
> escorts.

It'd be easier to just "sweep" areas with dampers set to "mildly"
accelerate reactions and cause any chunks of fissionables above a
certain size to melt into puddles (which could lead to messy side
reactions as the spreading puddles meet).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:02:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:02:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <010301c1de1d$72819f80$a85d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20409.125213.4J9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>> I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because
>> humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill
>> that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate
>> thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in
>> Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost
>> any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something
>> separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before.
>
> The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
> Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
> million or more - far greater than the examples given above.

The camps didn't just kill Jews. Add in the homosexuals and gypsies and
you get more than 10 million.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] G:Ground Forces queston
In-Reply-To: <B8D3910E.30E8%jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20409.133914.4F8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In the Grav vehicle design section, duct fans are listed as having a
> positive energy amount, instead of negative.  Is this an error or do they
> actually act as power plants?

Well, unless they are driven electrically, they are engines turning the
fans.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:05:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:05:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3B11B.377EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20409.134026.4K8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/5/02 7:30 PM, Trista at asmahan@the-spa.com wrote:
>
>> Hmmm, that sounds like the book 'Forlorn Hope'; mercenaries use
>> something called a 'cone bore rifle', the barrel of which is supposedly
>> of diamond and fires an osmium needle which is compressed as it travels
>> through the barrel and reaches hypervelocites. Had them in cannon size
>> too as I recall.

And it was one of those artillery sized ones that got them in trouble.
They managed to shoot down a multi-billion credit starship with it.

Thus causing the opposition to specifically *exclude* them from the
amnesty. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:06:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:06:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Flechettes
Message-ID: <200204092052.DSD04457@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn
<snip about flechettes>

See Dr. Fackler at
http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/pmrb.html

There are the other bullets we were discussing there, as well 
as Fackler talking about flechettes.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:08:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:08:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:35:30PM -0400
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:35:30PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> You would still need to defend the intellectual property 
> rights of the "free" part of the game, or some game company 
> would run off with it.

That's the difference philosophy between the GPL and BSD.  The GPL
says `this is free, and whatever you do with it must also be free.'
The BSD says `this is free; enjoy.'  I'm partial to the GPL, simply
because otherwise someone else can take that work and profit from
closing it.  But there are good arguments for both models, depending
on what one's goals are.

Tax-funded work, for instance, should be BSD-licensed, never
proprietary, thus allowing everyone to use it.

> We really should pay someone like Loren or Doug a LOT more money for
> their work.

Well, it's all a matter of what the market will bear.  Software pays
better because there's more demand.  RPGs pay worse because there's
not as much.

I try to help by purchasing about as many RPGs as I can afford (I've
got almost all of the main GT line, including GT:FT, GT:FI and GT:GF).
I figure that Loren, Doug, Marc and the rest all deserve a bit for the
good work they've done.

The fact that I collect RPGs doesn't enter into it:-)

> What I would be willing to pay for is a more well-thought out 
> game.

That's part of the value add one gets with a professional editor.
Most people cannot properly edit their own work.  I wonder if it might
not be possible for there to be money in taking freely-available work
and compiling it onto one large work.  Slap a compilation copyright
over the whole thing (to prevent others from just grabbing it up), but
the individual pieces are still free for anyone.

> Heck, I paid 200 for the Riverside Shakespeare, and you can download
> Shakespeare plays.

Yup.  Shakespeare's copy rights long ago expired--yet there's still a
market in them.  And there's still a market in plays, despite the fact
that, AFAICT, no-one's managed to do any better since.

> Given our numbers, and given what we really want and expect, we
> really need to reconsider the economic model.  And not just from the
> perspective of "let's go make a free game".

Well, something folks should realise is that it's not a free game in
the sense of money: a lot of work and effort would go into such a
thing.  I've spent man-months working on travlib and travtrack; I've
poured a lot of my life into them.  The same would hold for a free
system.  It's free in the sense of freedom; anyone could enjoy its
use.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If your adversary is badly bunkered, there is no rule against your
standing over him and counting his strokes aloud, but it will be a wise
precaution to arm yourself with the niblick before doing so, so as to
meet him on equal terms.                 --Horace G. Hutchinson, 1886

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:10:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:10:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F164o8C7wyfwjHNuQuN000048cd@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon:

>I've shot for fun at ranges where state police were
>practicing with their mouse guns.  I was using a Remington
>700 Police DM in .308, with a new barrel.  Past 300 yards,
>there was an incremental advantage, which really opened up at
>about 500 yards (hey, there really IS a morning glory effect).
>
>They were not smirking afterwards.  They wanted my weapon.

True, issue semi-autos do not have the accuracy of accurized bolt guns.  But 
the AR-15 is pretty close, as close as it comes really.  Comparing police 
issue M16s (Vietnam era M16A1s or carbines?) to a 700 Police DM is really 
apples and oranges.

> >Anyway, when we are talking 1,000 yards we are really
> >talking about ranges for snipers, not infantry.
> >
>
>OK.  But how do we identify these men if the basic weapon
>can't do half the sniper's range?

I think most Marines can hit a torso sized target at 500 yards about 100% of 
the time.  I don't think I am going out on a limb by saying their chances of 
hitting the target at that range is not going to be any greater with an M14. 
  Certainly a match M16 can beat a match M14 at that range (absent extreme 
winds).

>I never had a maintenance problem with the M-21, nor were the
>optics a problem.  I would recommend not taking off the
>sights (some mounts I saw later were silver soldered to
>prevent removal).

What mount are you using?  I have never found one that repeats zero after 
removal, and I am not comoftable with having to resight a weapon every time 
I want to give it a thorough cleaning.  I have looked at the ARMS mount, and 
it looks pretty solid, but it will still not be as good as mounting optic 
direcly on the reciever like you can with the M16A4.

>They are not "tweaked" so much as
>specifically chosen/selected and then "gone over" to be
>properly re-bedded (glass bedding certain areas).

The problem with the M14 is that the bedding needs to be redone every 
season.  Otherwise, its accuracy will deteriorate.  The M16 does not need 
bedding, and it can easily be free-floated.

>factory rifles today (bolt-actions) come with aluminum
>bedding blocks as standard, and have higher quality barrels
>than virtually any military rifle.  So many of them are
>accurate enough "out of the box" to give any semi-auto (and
>this includes a tricked out M-16) a run for its money.

I would say that most commercial rifles, like the ones from Wal-Mart, would 
definately not get better accuracy than a match M16.  Certainly a tricked 
out or upgraded bolt action would probably be better than a tricked out M16 
though.

>Even though Remington has had its quality control problems
>over the years, I could take virtually any Sendero model out
>of the box and out range anyone with a tricked out M-16.

Of course it depends on what you are doing.  Would you arm an entire army 
with Senderos?  It is not exactly the ideal close-quarters weapon.  Sure, 
the bolt gun would be superior to an M16 in the specific scenario you 
mention, but that does not necessarily make it superior in all situations.  
The M16A2 is a classic Jack of all Trades weapon.  Capable of aimed fire out 
to 500 yards, most effective at under 200 yards, which (they say) is where 
most infantry combat takes place.  While the M16 may have rang limits, it is 
supported by a variety of longer range weapons.  I think the army, when 
adopting the M16, correctly decided that there is a real limit to how far 
the average infantryman can shoot effectively, and adopted a weapon that is 
optimized for that range.  The longer range stuff is the responsiblity of 
the supporting weapons (which you left out of your sniper scenario).

On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off some 
M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and issuing them at 
the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max 500 yards?) and sniper 
(800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the guy with the M14 the 
"designated marksman" or something like that.  The guy who wrote the article 
I read did not like the idea, because of the the difficulties associated 
with the accurized M14s as stated above and standardization issues, but from 
what I understand these were deployed to Afghanistan so we should be getting 
reports soon.

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:11:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:11:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204072135.DON00704@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D8A4C3.3806F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 2:35 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> laning asks
>> 
>> Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread,
>> mentioning the ability of various Traveller races to cope
>> with recoil, I should have also mentioned battle dress.
>> That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more recoil.  But
>> how much?
>> 
> 
> Good question.  I've always wondered about this, because if
> you could carry large weapons and handle high recoil, you
> would have a semi-auto rifle that fired high velocity 20mm
> (not low velocity 20mm like the OICW).
> 
> 20mm californium rounds, that is.  The one part of Striker I
> really liked.  Hit someone in battledress and watch the
> little mushroom cloud.

With 'soft recoil' weapons, you can shoot some pretty big stuff.  The
problem is having any accuracy when shooting off a non-rigid platform (like
a person).

I have a photo somewhere of someone shooting a .50 Browing machinegun (soft
recoil version) full auto off their shoulder.

How does 'soft recoil' work you ask?

In a simple example, a large percentage of the weapon is capable of movement
within its mount.  The moving portion (including the barrel and bolt)  is
held rearward under spring pressure.  On firing, the moving assembly is
propelled forward, with the actual round being fired at some predetermined
point, usually just before 'run out'.  The rearward force of firing must
overcome the forward momentum of the assembly before any recoil is felt.

This is the reason that open bolt SMGs have less recoil than closed bolt
guns.

it is quite possible to design gun of fairly large caliber and KE that can
be fired tolerably by a person.

The problem with these systems is maintaining point of aim while the
assembly goes rocketing forward before the round is actually fired.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:12:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:12:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8D8A503.38070%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 3:05 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth
> for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and
> for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females
> it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing.
> Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how
> old the data is.

I just looked at my spreadsheets and see that the thickness I used was
actually 25 cm.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:14:52 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204092104.DSD06042@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson asks
>
>"the rifle"?

Remington 700 Police DM, in .308. (Comes with HS Precision 
stock with integral aluminum bedding block). Action 
reworked/firing pin replaced with titanium pin, barrel 
replaced with heavy contour Douglas Premium Match barrel, 
Timney trigger, Leupold Mark V M3 10x scope with mil-dot 
reticle, NEAR one-piece scope base optimized to get the most 
elevation adjustement out of the scope, Vortex flash 
suppressor, bipod, Simrad KN-250 GEN III night vision with 
adapter to fit over Leupold Mark V.

Some were frightened just by seeing it, some by going to the 
range with me and *seeing* it.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F36GB9wIWXLU9778dvM000038ae@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon said:

>back in 1989, we tested 5.56mm SS109 from four different
>M16A2 (we just got them) at 300 yards.  The range was
>outdoors, so wind was a factor.  The shooters were not your
>run of the mill soldiers.  The lesson was that shooting
>outdoors is not shooting in a test tunnel.  The average group
>size was over 12 inches (some people managed smaller - as
>small as 4 inches).

I think the military only requires 3 or 4 MOA from its M16A2s, so that is 
not out of line.  Standard issue M14s were not required to do any better.  
Whether those were mediocre rifles or mediocre ammo (I'll take your word for 
it that there were no mediocre shooters ;)), I've seen much better.

Were these U.S. rifles?  Just curious, as the army does not call the 62 
grain round SS109; here it is called M855.

>Using the M-21 without the scope, just NM iron sights, using
>M118 special ball, we all managed 3 to 4 inch groups.

That is not realy fair comparing an M21 with NM sights to issue M16s.  It is 
undeniable that the M14s have been entirely replaced by M16/AR-15s at the 
National Matches.  This is at ranges out to 600 yards.  The Marine team even 
switched, because they found it intolerable to keep getting whipped by the 
Army.  One shooting comparison between two different quality rifles is 
hardly an even playing field.

Did you guys see that a female teenage Marine won the national matches (with 
an M16) a few years ago?

>I'm not sure what I would ascribe the difference to, other
>than quality of weapon and quality of ammunition.

Ammunition maybe, and maybe poor quality assembly, but not the weapon 
system.

>The .223 Remington -
>is not seen - in benchrest circles.

The .223 is a fairly accurate round, on par with most cartridges.  The 308 
is theoretically more accurate.  It is certainly more resistant to the wind. 
  But as far as semi-auto platforms, there is nothing better than Stoner's 
design.  Put a 308 in an M16 platform, like the AR-10 or SR-25, and you get 
outstanding accuracy.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092132.DSF01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>  says
>Comparing police issue M16s (Vietnam era M16A1s or 
>carbines?) to a 700 Police DM is really 
>apples and oranges.
>

These were Montgomery County Police and Maryland State Police 
with heavily tricked-out M-16 variants (you know the type, 
looks like a Gauss rifle).  They were all firing match grade 
ammunition.  They did best at 100 yards, which is their 
engagement distance.  Past that...  Out at 800 yards, where 
the wind blows, you have to compensate more for the 5.56mm.

>
>I think most Marines can hit a torso sized target at 500 
>yards about 100% of the time.

Marines yes, Army infantry, no way.  And that assumes that 
your enemy is standing in the open.  Most experienced 
soldiers go into the prone.  Once you're in the prone, the 
bolt action in the hands of a sniper has the advantage, 
because you can hit grapefruit-sized targets very reliably at 
300 to 400 yards, and most of the time at 500.  Take those 
same Marines and try to have them hit the grapefruit at 500.  
There's probably a Distinguished Marksman in there, isn't 
there?

>  Certainly a match M16 can beat a match M14 at that range 
> absent extreme winds).
>

Part of the reason the M-16 does better is *over* a course of 
fire - fatigue due to recoil is an effect.  

>What mount are you using?  

The standard one that came with the weapon - round knob.  
There's a lot of grief to be had from removing it, but you 
can find a good one.  Then again - for purposes of real 
accuracy, I've never been able to get "detachable" mounts of 
any kind to repeat zero.


>scenario

That's why you shoot in order - RTO, machinegunner, anti-tank 
missile gunner, sergeant, LT.  But, like I said, spotting me 
in the first place is difficult.  But if all the police have 
is a set of mouseguns, then set up with a Sendero at 600 
yards.  Not one will ever return fire, unless there are more 
than four.

Go to the store and look at a Sendero.  It's not a custom 
weapon, but it is very, very good.  About the only thing it 
requires is a properly mounted high quality scope and having 
the bolt squared and lapped.  I've had two (and a 700P), and 
all of them were 1/2 MOA out of the box.  The remaining work 
was for my peace of mind.  My 700P was close to 1/4 MOA.

The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my 
rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these, 
and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get 
him without losing half the team or more."

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F166rhup7IpGwC6RZT20000d54e@hotmail.com>

Tod Glen:

>It depends on how well they are stabilized.  The trick is to make a
>projectile stable in air, but unstable in tissue.  As tissue is about 800
>times denser, this is generally not a problem.  As you are doubtlessly
>aware, all projectiles tend to yaw, and this tendency is exacerbated when
>transiting media.  The long, thin projectile tends to tumble and bend,
>creating large permanent wound tracks.  Also, a quick review of Mach's
>equation will show that retardation rates for these long projectiles are
>high, meaning that more energy is dumped into the target more quickly.

That all makes a lot of sense to me, but it just seems like I read something 
that said kind of the opposite.  The site where I thought I read that is 
down though, and my memory is hardly infallible - except in regards to the 
velocity of 5.56mm ball of course.  ;)

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:02:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:02:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F80Dll7fnp3eEHJtfob00001392@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon said:

>These were Montgomery County Police and Maryland State Police
>with heavily tricked-out M-16 variants (you know the type,
>looks like a Gauss rifle).  They were all firing match grade
>ammunition.  They did best at 100 yards, which is their
>engagement distance.  Past that...  Out at 800 yards, where
>the wind blows, you have to compensate more for the 5.56mm.

With tricke out M16s, these guys are crappy shots if they can not make a 
headshot at 600 yards.  True, your Sendero will be better, but the M16 
should still be able to do the job.

>Marines yes, Army infantry, no way.  And that assumes that
>your enemy is standing in the open.  Most experienced
>soldiers go into the prone.  Once you're in the prone, the
>bolt action in the hands of a sniper has the advantage,
>because you can hit grapefruit-sized targets very reliably at
>300 to 400 yards, and most of the time at 500.  Take those
>same Marines and try to have them hit the grapefruit at 500.
>There's probably a Distinguished Marksman in there, isn't
>there?

Again, no question that a 308 bolt gun will do better at longer ranges than 
an issue M16.  A tricked out AR-15 could be able to make headshots at that 
range too.  A 308 bolt gun from Wal-Mart would not.

>Part of the reason the M-16 does better is *over* a course of
>fire - fatigue due to recoil is an effect.

Sure.

> >What mount are you using?
>
>The standard one that came with the weapon - round knob.

Is that the Springfield mount?

>Then again - for purposes of real
>accuracy, I've never been able to get "detachable" mounts of
>any kind to repeat zero.

I have had outstanding results with mil-spec rails, but maybe our 
definitions of what is acceptable is different.

> >scenario
>
>That's why you shoot in order - RTO, machinegunner, anti-tank
>missile gunner, sergeant, LT.  But, like I said, spotting me
>in the first place is difficult.  But if all the police have
>is a set of mouseguns, then set up with a Sendero at 600
>yards.  Not one will ever return fire, unless there are more
>than four.

I would not be too sure.  People win national matches at 600 yards with 
M16s.  They can mount some pretty nice optics/night vision, etc. on their 
weapon, and the pros can make a headshot at that range.

Besides, in your sniper scenario, as a lover of peace and tranquility I'd 
simply avoid them.

>Go to the store and look at a Sendero.

I don't have to go to the store.  ;)

>It's not a custom
>weapon, but it is very, very good.  About the only thing it
>requires is a properly mounted high quality scope and having
>the bolt squared and lapped.  I've had two (and a 700P), and
>all of them were 1/2 MOA out of the box.  The remaining work
>was for my peace of mind.  My 700P was close to 1/4 MOA.

Which is not all that remarkable for rigs like that.  I actually like 
Winchesters and get similar results.  And don't you dare start a 
Winchester/Remington thing on this thread!

Anway, my point was that a stock AR-15 HBAR will get 1/2 MOA too.  1/4 MOA 
is doable with some upgrades.

I definately agree with you that wind effects 5.56 more than 308, but on the 
other hand you have to start making adjustments for wind for any caliber at 
the longer ranges you are talking about.

>The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my
>rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these,
>and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get
>him without losing half the team or more."

Those cops have seen one Stephen Segal movie too many.  ;)

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F80Dll7fnp3eEHJtfob00001392@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D8B7BA.3813B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 3:01 PM, Sam D at samdx@hotmail.com wrote:

>> The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my
>> rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these,
>> and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get
>> him without losing half the team or more."
> 
> Those cops have seen one Stephen Segal movie too many.  ;)

Reality.  The police evacuate the area.  Then they get their negotiator to
bore you to death.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092239.DSH02057@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>Reality.  The police evacuate the area.  Then they get their 
>negotiator to bore you to death.
>--

The assets that police have: time, time, and more time.  And 
some more time.

That's why you keep seeing idiots in orange jumpsuits or 
black bodybags on CNN.  The police wait until you decide to 
put on the orange suit, or they wait until you get so tired 
that they rush you and put the black bag on you.

Which makes me wonder what happened in various Federal 
situations.  As long as no one is being killed, I would 
presume that you have all the time in the world.  Even if 
they've killed officers, you can still wait.

ObTrav: Idiot players trapped in their ship by the police.  
Locals set up a carnival row; onlookers begin to camp out.  
News media do unflattering background stories on the players 
and their families. Police start pinochle tournament.  
Players resort to eating their shoes.



________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20409.121152.9P1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com> <20409.121152.9P1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020410084316.A2115@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

[someone wrote:]
> > Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt.
>
> Sorry, not *possible*. Not even the third Imperium has *that* kind of
> firepower.

Not with nukes, no.  They are quite expensive per unit of energy.  And
certainly not on a whim.

The Third Imperium could actually build and transport about 10^17 N
worth of HEPlaR drives per year.  Thruster plates would be even
easier, but I'll assume HEPlaR.  A decade worth of HEPlaR production
gives you 10^18 N of thrust.  The cost of building the mining systems
and refineries for them to run on water would would be relatively
trivial in comparison.

You find a nice large cometary body, say 1000 km across, to mount them
on.  You build a shell around it.  You accelerate it for a further
decade at 0.0003g (initially), aimed at Terra.  By the time it gets
there, about 60% of the mass has been consumed and it's moving at
about 1500 km/s.  If my calculations are correct, that should deliver
enough energy to overcome Earth's gravitational self-binding.

In practice it wouldn't be that efficient, but it would certainly
create a new asteroid belt, and render what's left of the planet into
a recondensing ball of gas.  It would also noticeably alter Earth's
orbit, lengthening or shortening the year by about half a day or so.


> > the Ziro Sirka would have, could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it 
> > glowed.
> 
> Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
> Millions, hundreds of millions.

What scary numbers.

Ten million 100-megaton warheads costs about 1 TCr at Ziru Sirka tech
levels.  That's less than some *single* systems' GWP for just one
year.  Furthermore, the whole load could be carried in a few transport
ships.  The total cost (including transportation) works out about the
same as a couple of dreadnaughts, and they deliver enough energy to
raise the temperature of the entire surface of the planet to the point
where it does *literally* glow.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>

The esteemed sophonts Summer, Pitt, Robertson, Bond, Laning, Wildstar and
others I am no doubt forgetting to credit, wrote eloquently on starship
insurance, leading me to commit random observations on insurance and law in
Traveller.

Your premiums would be a function your risk pool, the size of your
deductible, and what riders you have on your policy.

What kinds of insurance do starships need?  Several spring to mind.
Starships carrying a mortgage will require comprehensive insurance which
would include the following:

Theft and Casualty - Fairly straightforward, this insurance compensates the
insured in the event the ship, or any portion thereof, is stolen or damaged.
Common exclusions (circumstances under which the insurance does not apply)
would probably include: Loss as a result of Acts of God or Nature; Loss as a
result of Acts of Warfare; Loss as a result of Acts of Terrorism; Loss as a
result of Natural Hazards to Navigation; Loss due to Malice, Fraud or Acts
of Deliberate Intent on the part of the Insured, Loss Incurred while
Violating Imperial or Regional Law (including, among many things, travel in
a Red Zone.

Available riders (additional coverage relating to specific circumstances
available for higher premiums) would probably include: Atmospheric Entry;
Gas Giant Refueling; Planetfall Outside Approved Starports; Stellar Flares;
Uncharted Hazards to Navigation; Utilization of Jump-Space, Travel to an
Amber Zone.

Payouts in the event of damage will be the cost of repair of the damage, or
replacement of the damaged part(s) minus the deductible.  Payouts in the
case of theft or total loss of the vessel will be either the current value
of the ship (the Blue Book value) or a pre-agreed value established in the
policy (the more expensive, but perhaps better choice for older vessels that
may not hold their value as well.)  In either case, the payout would, of
course, be minus the deductible.

Premium reductions would probably be available for unusually well trained or
certified key crewmembers such as Captain, pilot and astrogator.
Anti-hijack and port security programs, as well as security officers on
board might also get you a discount if such things are not required by law
already.

That's frequently how insurance companies get policy holders to toe the
line.  Not by filling the policy with onerous requirements (although they're
not above that,) but by lobbying the law-making and regulatory bodies to
pass legislation and regulations that enforce the behavior the insurance
companies desire.  It also has the added benefit that the government is now
inspecting and enforcing for the insurance companies.

Modern day example:  Seat belts.  I don't think (although I could be wrong,
I'm still wet behind the ears) that insurance policies in the USA ever
required passengers in insured vehicles to wear seat belts.  Seat belts,
when used, lower insurance payouts.  Now, largely as a result of insurance
lobbying, seat belts must, by law, be worn in Texas and nearly everywhere
else. (any states in the union that don't require seat belts?)

This already too long by far, and I haven't even got into hypothetical legal
cases regarding theft and casualty insurance in the TU, much less moved on
to other kinds of insurance.

More on insurance later, if there is sufficient interest.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:55:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:55:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020410085426.A2419@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> Anyway, off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to
> make this work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the
> square-root of the inertial suppression factor.

If you're directly altering the strength of the interaction, the
strength should drop off exactly in line with the mass reduction.  The
square-root factor was when altering the *charge*.

You should likewise reduce the strength of the strong and weak forces.


Now, just Planck's constant to deal with :)

If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
well.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:57:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:57:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F793hRDT6Z3LstPGtPr00011ce3@hotmail.com>

So am I right in saying that these little gauss projectiles you all are 
talking about, the ones that do so much damage, are not fletchettes?  They 
use spin to stabilize in the air rather than little wings, right?

If so, that is where I got so horribly confused.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.151435.2e5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a 
> miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no 
> visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).

A pulse laser capable of doing srious damage to a human *will* leave a
path of ionization thru the air. This will give both a visible beam
*and* a distinctive noise. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:06:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:06:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20409.151650.6b9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/6/02 2:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>
>> 
>> But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a
>> miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no
>> visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).
>> 
>
> What type of laser? What power range?  Are their any ionizing effects?
> Certainly the laser makes noise when it hits the target.  Steam explosions
> in tissue, the popping of superheated fat.
>
> And ever looked at a later with LI gear?  Super obvious.  Like having a big
> pointer going back to the firer.  And lasers are relatively easy to defeat,
> or at least attenuate.  A few mils of highly reflective material sewn into
> clothing, prismatic aerosols.  As mentioned in a previous post, lasers are
> not good penetrators.  The problem is with the nature of lasers themselves.
> The have to vaporize there way through materials.  But the vaporized
> material itself can act as a hindrance to the laser.

Which is why you use a pulse laser with a *short* pulse duration. The
target spot flashes into plasma at supersonic speeds and blasts a nice
hole. 

And reflective material won't help as much as people think. 99%
reflectivity is *hard* to achieve. And 1% of the pulse energy is still
nasty. 

> Also, water (and by analogy tissue) is a great thermal sink. 55 calories to
> raise 1 cc of water 1 degree centigrade, IIRC.

Yeah, but given that the pulse energy is in the kJ to MJ range, this
isn't as much of a problem as you may think.

Remember, *by definition* a laser weapon has to be able to deposit
damaging amounts of energy. 

Basicly, the only effect wavelength will have is on the penetration
depth. That is, how far the energy of the pulse pentrates before being
absorbed. 

Keep in mind that while the *energy* of the pulse might only be a few
kilojoules the *power* level will be in the megawatt to gigawatt range.
Pulses of 1 millisecond or *shorter* will be wanted, both to avoid
problems with target movement, but also because the shorter duration
tends to increase the "shock" effect due to increased rapidity of
energy deposition.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <20409.151650.6b9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018393991.5137.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Which is why you use a pulse laser with a *short* pulse duration. The
> target spot flashes into plasma at supersonic speeds and blasts a nice
> hole. 

And, since this isn't clear, it's probably better to use multiple pulses; if
the pulses are close enough together in time you can drill a hole.

> Basicly, the only effect wavelength will have is on the penetration
> depth. That is, how far the energy of the pulse pentrates before being
> absorbed. 

Well, it has a fairly significant effect on range.  Higher penetration also
allows higher energy per pulse, since heat is deposited efficiently at a
greater depth.
> 
> Keep in mind that while the *energy* of the pulse might only be a few
> kilojoules the *power* level will be in the megawatt to gigawatt range.
> Pulses of 1 millisecond or *shorter* will be wanted, both to avoid
> problems with target movement, but also because the shorter duration
> tends to increase the "shock" effect due to increased rapidity of
> energy deposition.

Think microsecond.  You want to create a supersonic shock effect.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:29:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:29:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>

Used to be Scripting Help...

 Well IMTU, originally there wasn't any computer platforms. Simply because
as the Ref I wasn't at the time into computers at all. The subject was
never a point.

 However now I find that there were/are hundreds of computer platcorms in
the world. not counting the versions of several of them. What would this
mean to the TU?

 As some have written about the great beast Gates. I thought that a user
of a minority system could have a few points to add. I mean just because a
new system is forced upon the public. Doesn't magically make all computer
users have it on their desks.

 Taking a clue about the difficulties in file work betwen a windrone any
version and the Commodore. I have been making notes on a run for my
upcoming rebirth Traveller game. Team finds a "disk" that contains the
secret information. but it is not compatible with what they have on the
ship. Now how do they read the information with out destroying the
contents. A fact that I have heard about in older windrone systems being
copied to newer systems. But point is that Idon'T think in Traveller there
is a mega corp making 100% of the computers and all the Os for the
software. I would propose that there are many smaller companies making
software and computers using their own systems. As in the 80s in this
world. Increase that to the tech levels of the worlds, non impperial
worlds with their own standards and there is a situation. One that I am
not certain the Computer skill as written covers in CT.

 As a simple example to this, say I write a file in geoWrite/Whels on my
Commodore. Add to that a GeoPaint file of a map. Send this to someone that
uses a windrone machine. Say this is done online. Any one tapping the line
would collect the file. but unless they have the same equipment as I do,
then it is a bummer to read. BTW: that also includes the fonts. As the
GeoWrite/Whels uses IIRC VLIR a form of image rather than ascii or pet
ascii codes for the charcters. The map would be a lage image file.

 Now I do know that there is a file called "gwimport.exe" created by
maurice Randall that will allow a windrone user to read the base ascii of
the GeoWrite file. It is a Pd one and i have a copy on my BBS. There is
also one for the Amiga called "gwimport.lha" That also is on my BBS. Yet
the file is not one that the majority of useers would have in their tools
disks. Oh FWIW the C= has tools to read the text files in IIRC ascii from
the 1.44 formatted disks. This tool is a german one called "GeoDos".

 As you can see the Ref could install the ability for tools/files to be
about for the higher level computer skilled character to open files from
other platforms.

 Naturally I suspect that the more computer savy members will have more to
say on the subject of cross platform work. Including older editions of
systems. This is just to stimulate the concept of computers not being
unified in the Thrid imperium.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F210WagewMS59IvqvIy000169c3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4237A.16506.A62A44@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 6:18, Sam D wrote:

> But as to your basic point that an M1 gets better accuracy than an
> M16A1, as far as issue weapons I would not be too sure.  The M16's
> action probably gives better accuracy.

My experience with the M16A1 and the M1 (though only one sample of it), 
both unmodified from issue, both using military ball, was that their 
accuracy at 100m was similar, though the M1's better trigger made it 
easier to get the best from the rifle consistently. At 300m the M1 
grouped better in all but very still conditions because the heavier 
bullet wasn't pushed around as much by the wind.

> Also, the M1's wood stock is not so great when you do a lot of firing.

I'd be more concerned about the relatively light barrel, actually.

> The M16 has much less recoil.

Now this you do notice.

> On the other hand, the M16 is lousy if you are using a
> sling (because the sling connects to the front sight which is
> connected directly to the barrel) and it has a very thin barrel.

It's lousy if you use the fore-end, full-stop.

> I bet the M16A2, with the heavy barrel, does better than the Garand
> though. 

The barrel's not thick all the way, though.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CB4251C.2440.AC8C18@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 10:44, Megan Robertson wrote:

> Insurance companies have been in the business of ripping clients off
> since they began, and I doubt they'll change... 
> 
> However, they do often state preconditions, as well as having
> 'weasel' clauses in the contract. When I took out household
> insurance a while back I had to upgrade the front door lock and they
> wanted me to get a burglar alarm until I told them I kept a Doberman
> pinscher :-) 

When I took out insuarance they wanted to put a note to the effect that 
I lived in a high burglary area, and had no alarm. They said that if I 
installed one they'd have to come round and check that this was so. 
They declined to come and check out the quality of the two bull 
terriers, though (and still put the rider in, bastards).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:35:30PM -0400
Message-ID: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 14:56, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Yup.  Shakespeare's copy rights long ago expired--yet there's still a
> market in them.  And there's still a market in plays, despite the fact
> that, AFAICT, no-one's managed to do any better since.

Shakepear didn't have any copyrights on his work - they didn't exist at 
that time. 

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F164o8C7wyfwjHNuQuN000048cd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4295B.22483.BD2072@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 20:59, Sam D wrote:

> Of course it depends on what you are doing.  Would you arm an entire
> army with Senderos?  It is not exactly the ideal close-quarters
> weapon.  Sure, the bolt gun would be superior to an M16 in the
> specific scenario you mention, but that does not necessarily make it
> superior in all situations.  The M16A2 is a classic Jack of all
> Trades weapon.  Capable of aimed fire out to 500 yards, most
> effective at under 200 yards, which (they say) is where most
> infantry combat takes place.  While the M16 may have rang limits, it
> is supported by a variety of longer range weapons.  I think the
> army, when adopting the M16, correctly decided that there is a real
> limit to how far the average infantryman can shoot effectively, and
> adopted a weapon that is optimized for that range.  The longer range
> stuff is the responsiblity of the supporting weapons (which you left
> out of your sniper scenario). 

For what you're talking about the M16 is more accurate than you need, 
and there are better weapons out there for this sort of work - like the 
AK-47 (though for westerners you'd want to lengthen the stock).
 
> On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off
> some M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and
> issuing them at the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max
> 500 yards?) and sniper (800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the
> guy with the M14 the "designated marksman" or something like that. 
> The guy who wrote the article I read did not like the idea, because
> of the the difficulties associated with the accurized M14s as stated
> above and standardization issues, but from what I understand these
> were deployed to Afghanistan so we should be getting reports soon. 

I'm not convinced that these are that big and issue. Every time you 
deploy the weapon should be sighted in first, and I never noticed any 
issues with bedding in my M1. Besides unless there are serious problems 
with this the better trigger will, IME, work in the M1's favour. As the 
M14 (AFAIK) didn't have any significant changes in it trigger (aside 
from the full-auto option) it should have a similar advantage, 
especially over an issue M16A2's trigger.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204092104.DSD06042@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB42A0A.17821.BFCECC@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 17:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Leonard Erickson asks
> >
> >"the rifle"?
> 
> Remington 700 Police DM, in .308. (Comes with HS Precision 
> stock with integral aluminum bedding block). Action 
> reworked/firing pin replaced with titanium pin, barrel 
> replaced with heavy contour Douglas Premium Match barrel, 
> Timney trigger, Leupold Mark V M3 10x scope with mil-dot 
> reticle, NEAR one-piece scope base optimized to get the most 
> elevation adjustement out of the scope, Vortex flash 
> suppressor, bipod, Simrad KN-250 GEN III night vision with 
> adapter to fit over Leupold Mark V.
> 
> Some were frightened just by seeing it, some by going to the 
> range with me and *seeing* it.

Sounds cool. What sort of groups do you get with it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:04:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:04:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D8A503.38070%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB42A0A.7930.BFCE18@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 14:02, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/7/02 3:05 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth
> > for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and
> > for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females
> > it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing.
> > Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how
> > old the data is.
> 
> I just looked at my spreadsheets and see that the thickness I used was
> actually 25 cm.

Cool. You had me thinking that everyone in the US was barrel chested 
for a moment there. :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204072135.DON00704@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.161536.4M2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> laning asks
>>
>>Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread, 
>>mentioning the ability of various Traveller races to cope 
>>with recoil, I should have also mentioned battle dress.  
>>That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more recoil.  But 
>>how much?
>
> Good question.  I've always wondered about this, because if 
> you could carry large weapons and handle high recoil, you 
> would have a semi-auto rifle that fired high velocity 20mm 
> (not low velocity 20mm like the OICW).
>
> 20mm californium rounds, that is.  The one part of Striker I 
> really liked.  Hit someone in battledress and watch the 
> little mushroom cloud.

Consider a "heavy weapon" for a K'kree. Something that "braces" against
the breastbone. I daresay that 20mm wouldn't be out of the question.

I recall some SF race that was built along the lines of the larger
terran ursines (Kodiaks, Polar bears, that sort of thing). A rifle for
one of *them* was a light anti-tank weapon for a human. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020409220409.8A29027AB5@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020409165807.00a496c0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 11:24:10 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> > To some extent, this is probably because I was never acclimated to them as
> > a youth, through hunting or whatever.  But I am similarly nervous around
> > anything that can cause death or serious injury, even/especially by
> > accident or negligence.
>
>Knives, chainsaw, cars, hammers, baseball bats....

If any of those appear likely to be used in anger or recklessly, yes.

> > There's also the "with great power comes great responsibility" angle.
> > I do not want or need the power to maim or kill another human being,
> > or the responsibility that necessarily comes with it.
>
>I take it that you don't drive then.
>
>Seriously. a car is a deadlier weapon than most guns.

I suspect you meant this rhetorically, but actually, I don't.  (My family 
was not in a position, when I was at the appropriate age, to afford the 
insurance premiums for a young driver.)  As I live in a bicycle-friendly 
city, I've never really bothered to learn since then.

As a bike rider, I'm quite aware of the potential deadliness of a ton-plus 
of metal moving at 30+ miles per hour.  Perhaps moreso than many drivers.

> > It's a lot harder to kill someone with a jacket.  Definitely not
> > impossible, but jackets are not primarily designed to apply deadly
> > force.  A firearm is, and I grant them all the respect they are due
> > as a result.
>
>Knives are primarily designed to cut flesh. It's all in how you use a
>tool.

But to claim that all tools are equally fearsome (or inoffensive), 
depending solely on the motive of the operator, is a facile 
generalization.  I am much more likely to be cautious/respectful/afraid of 
a loaded firearm than of a manila folder, if only because the potential 
injury (death or maiming vs. paper cut) is so obviously unequal.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV44bffoJpHq2XMx250001843b@hotmail.com>

Starship Insurance - Theft and Casualty - Freight and Cargo

Freight - Anything of value aboard a ship which belongs to another and is
being transported to a specific destination for a fee.  Insurance here is a
fairly simple matter, the shipper determines if they want to purchase
freight insurance.

Perhaps one or more crewmembers are qualified to write freight insurance
policies using the ships theft and casualty insurer as a kind of
super-carrier.  In addition or instead, the shipper could take out a freight
policy from a third party local insurer.  The premium would be a one time up
front payment for each shipment, and the payout would be an agreed upon
amount.  The ration of premium to payout would depend on risk conditions for
the trip (piracy, hazards, distance of travel.)

Cargo - Anything of value aboard a ship that belongs to the insured that is
not part of ships inventory.  It would be unlikely that cargo would be
covered under the ships theft and casualty policy.  In case of a claim of
theft, it would be too difficult to determine what the cargo really was, and
a problem to determine its value.  As the insurance company, do you payout
the value of the cargo at its loading point? Its value at its ultimate
destination? Its value at the nearest inhabited worls at the time of loss?
Its value at the insurance comapnies regional office at the subsector
capital?  Its value at insurance company headquarters on Capitol?  Insurance
company answer:  whichever is the lowest value. <g>

For these reasons I think you would see cargo insured in the same way as
freight.

Starports would tend to collect insurance agency offices in the same way
jails collect bail bond offices.  Many, especially on smaller worlds, would
probably be independent agents writing policies from a number of companies,
using whichever can best suit their customers needs.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:30:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:30:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020409220408.0118927AB3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002101c1e027$4452ada0$3cb18b90@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> > The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
> > Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
> > million or more - far greater than the examples given above.
>
> The camps didn't just kill Jews. Add in the homosexuals and gypsies and
> you get more than 10 million.

And all the others that found their way into them...

But even so, this, at most, might put the number higher than WWI.  The
Taiping Rebellion and WWII are still way ahead.

It also doesn't help that the camps were intimately associated with WWII,
and not really a distinct phenomenon.

You seem to be fairly consistently a couple of days behind on the list, BTW.
Are you just behind, or is it something to do with the exotic 19th Century
computers you use?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:31:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:31:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name things
References: <20020409184310.F206027A50@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002201c1e027$47ec4f20$3cb18b90@computer>

> From: "Hughes, Michael"
> Star Wars Name =
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born.

It gives some ugly consonant clusters.  Positively Zhodani in some cases.

I'm kind of getting used to the "br" in "Alabr", though.  It's obviously
pronounced like a shivering sound.  This isn't any more difficult than the
Chinese/Vietnamese "ng".  I might add a bit of emphasis to the "la", as it
makes pronouncing the "br" a bit easier.  So:  Al-la-br, rather than
Al-e-<mumble>.

I was just thinking what Doug Berry's first name would be:  Doube.  <Sings:
"Doube-doube-dou" with a Penguin accent.>  Yeah, that works.

Loren's would be a little sad:  Lorwi.  It sounds like he has a lisp.

Alabr Sucha
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ACQ and GT
Message-ID: <3CB4366A.11648.F02634@localhost>

A while back someone (was it you Doug) said they were using ACQ with 
GT. It's occurred to me to try this out too, and I was wondering how 
you dealt with the rule for spending AP for bonuses to skills, 
especially the limit for aiming (no more than 3xskill level). The 
obvious limit for this last would be the lower of the character's skill 
(in GT terms) or weapon Acc, but I was wondering how others dealt with 
this.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 19:09:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 18:09:10 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8D51C82.37945%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20409.174638.4l4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/6/02 8:42 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
>>> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
>>> build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.
>> 
>> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
>> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.
>
> ??
>
> Why permanent magnets.  A rialgun doesn't use magnetic fields in the manner
> of a coil gun.  We just have two parallel rails and the armature
> (projectile).  We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
> in the loop and acting on the armature.

There's a vertical magnetic field involved. Without it, you aren't
going to get nearly as high a velocity. 

Vertical magnetic field + sideways current flow -> forward motion. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 19:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 18:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20409.174638.4l4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D8E360.381D0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 6:46 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>>> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
>>> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.
>> 
>> ??
>> 
>> Why permanent magnets.  A rialgun doesn't use magnetic fields in the manner
>> of a coil gun.  We just have two parallel rails and the armature
>> (projectile).  We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
>> in the loop and acting on the armature.
> 
> There's a vertical magnetic field involved. Without it, you aren't
> going to get nearly as high a velocity.
> 
> Vertical magnetic field + sideways current flow -> forward motion.

I grabbed this of railgun.org:

Why are there no magnets above and below the rails to supplement the induced
field? - 
The induced field in a reasonable railgun is of a field strength on the
order of ~1 Tesla or more. A one Tesla electromagnet would be the size of a
Volkswagon and would probably need to be superconducting. [snip]
Additionally, the power for these extra magnets would either require more
capacitors or would be placed in series with the rails, adding unwanted
resistance and inductance to the circuit.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020410085426.A2419@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 10, 2002 08:54:26 AM
Message-ID: <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > Anyway, off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to
> > make this work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the
> > square-root of the inertial suppression factor.
> 
> If you're directly altering the strength of the interaction, the
> strength should drop off exactly in line with the mass reduction.  The
> square-root factor was when altering the *charge*.

Gah! I really should have taken that high school physics class.
 
> You should likewise reduce the strength of the strong and weak forces.

Okay... so I guess we need to suppose that all these forces get dropped
by the same factor.

> Now, just Planck's constant to deal with :)

Okay... I'm totally clueless, but:
E=hv, where h = planck's constant and v = frequency
(note: i have no idea what i'm taking about)
in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is that
if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we would prefer
that neither of them drop.

> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
> well.

Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
energy level of an electron in an atom?

I've heard that the atomic nucleus is held together by the interplay
between the strong and weak forces, the strong force keeping the
positively charged protons together while the weak force tries to
rip them apart. I suppose that since this idea of taming the quantum
foam should reduce both forces equally, the stability of the
nucleus would be uneffected (the effects of the strong & weak force
reductions should cancel out).

However, I'm not sure how to handle the problem of electrons, which
you mention above. But I'll try to tackle it anyway, so what follows
it totally off the cuff. I'm guessing that the electromagnetic force
keeps electrons attracted to the positively charged atomic nucleus
and repulsed by each other, hence accounting for their movements
(of course, this probably falls apart at some level, but bear with
me). Well, I'm just guessing here, but if their movements are determined
by the repulsive & attractive effects of the same force (electromagnetic),
then reducing that force should have no net effect, as reduction in
repulsion will be perfectly offset by the reduction in attraction.
In short, and I'm no physics major, so correct me if I'm wrong,
once again what I would expect is that these changes cancel out,
resulting in there being no need to change Planck's constant.

Am I totally wrong here? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17936@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Hey lads,

I am offering Mikey Trav (modified MT) up for re-assessment by my gaming
group and was wondering if some nice kind TMLers would test the Traveller
Generation component for me. 

Essentially it is a combo of Mega Trav and Chaosium generation mechanics
(before it was D20ed). It looks a little foreboding at first but the core
rules are only 10 pages long. 

Any comments/suggestions gratefully received. Ludowick, if you're still
TMLing I'd love it if you could have a look as well. Ditto Hyphen. 

If you are interested please contact me off list. 


PBEM:

I am thinking about running a PBEM D&D game for a friend. Does anyone know
of a How To website out there for running PBEM RPG sessions?

Thanks in advance, 

Mikey



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:54:19AM +1200
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net> <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:54:19AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Shakepear didn't have any copyrights on his work - they didn't exist at 
> that time. 

That was indeed part of my point...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
               --Socrates, c.  5th century BC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:24:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:24:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F217LltyKF5Q6JVW8s20001d6e3@hotmail.com>

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

In a flight on Whipsnadian hyperbole, I typed "... the 'brutally pragmatic' 
Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt."

     "Sorry, not *possible*. Not even the third Imperium has *that* kind of 
firepower."


Mr. Erickson,

     Yes, as your other posts illustrated, a planet is a VERY BIG place!  
Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the 
conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.

In another bout of hyperbole, I posted, "... the Ziro Sirka would have, 
could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it glowed."

     "Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
Millions, hundreds of millions."

     But of course.  Would you care to hazard a guess just what sort of 
firepower it would have taken for the ZS to remove Terra as a threat?  How 
many warheads, kinetic strikes, spinal mount hits, and plain old iron bombs 
would it have taken "de-industrialize" Terra?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:26:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:26:46 2002
Subject: [TML] ACQ and GT
In-Reply-To: <3CB4366A.11648.F02634@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409191152.009ffe70@mindspring.com>

At 12:56 PM 4/10/02 +1200, you wrote:
>A while back someone (was it you Doug) said they were using ACQ with
>GT. It's occurred to me to try this out too, and I was wondering how
>you dealt with the rule for spending AP for bonuses to skills,
>especially the limit for aiming (no more than 3xskill level). The
>obvious limit for this last would be the lower of the character's skill
>(in GT terms) or weapon Acc, but I was wondering how others dealt with
>this.

Wasn't me.. and I can't remember who did it.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204100230.DSP00729@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
>Sounds cool. What sort of groups do you get with it?
>

1/4 MOA.  But I have to do my work.  This is also where I 
stopped shooting from a bench, and did all of my work in the 
prone using either sling or bipod.  Laying on the ground is 
where this sort of rifle would be used, so I shot from the 
ground.

I get an acceptable score on the Rifle Ten, which is probably 
a more practical test of rifle skills, but you could probably 
shoot the same with an iron-sighted M1 Garand or even an M-
16.  Most practical rifle tests do not involve long range 
shooting, and I view most "long range" marksmanship courses 
of fire as too artificial to really measure much.  Aside from 
that, you can "practice" the test itself.

Maybe what we should all do is practice for the Kenyathalon, 
which is probably a fine test of field skill with a rifle.

I gave the rifle to the local SWAT team.  I think they're 
going to build a memorial to me.  Not the Simrad, however. 
But, it's been over a year now, and I'm reworking another 
Remington, but this time in .300 Win Mag.  In this case, 
however, I plan on sticking to 6x scopes, and shoot from my 
hind legs.

Why give it away?  Well, if you're getting a divorce, it pays 
not to have any firearms around, even if you've never made a 
threat.  The opposing lawyer is ready to make something out 
of it, even the mere presence, especially here in the 
People's Republic of Maryland.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [Fwd: FYI: Claim for Dentus/Regina]
Message-ID: <3CB3A651.5FE32F71@premier.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Here's a Landgrab claim from a JTAS subscriber:



-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.
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Return-Path: <itsjustabunny@netzero.net>
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Received: (qmail 19488 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2002 02:34:21 -0000
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Message-ID: <001801c1e038$d60189e0$7856f4d1@003905747>
From: "Videll" <itsjustabunny@netzero.net>
To: <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: FYI: Claim for Dentus/Regina
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 22:38:41 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1E017.4C59AEA0"
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------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1E017.4C59AEA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

FYI. Thanks, Greg.

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Videll=20
To: landgrab@downport.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 10:20 PM
Subject: Claim for Dentus/Regina


I'd like to claim Dentus/Regina as part of the 'land grab' and ask to =
have the information I develop be hosted at Downport.com. Please let me =
know what additional information you require. Thanks a lot, Greg Videll.

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1E017.4C59AEA0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>FYI. Thanks, Greg.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:itsjustabunny@netzero.net"=20
title=3Ditsjustabunny@netzero.net>Videll</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:landgrab@downport.com"=20
title=3Dlandgrab@downport.com>landgrab@downport.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 09, 2002 10:20 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Claim for Dentus/Regina</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'd like to claim Dentus/Regina as part =
of the=20
'land grab' and ask to have the information I develop be hosted at =
Downport.com.=20
Please let me know what additional information you require. Thanks a =
lot, Greg=20
Videll.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1E017.4C59AEA0--



--------------1C1D34570AB70063DD2A1374--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:44:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:44:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20409.114950.6a1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409223004.02132f28@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:49 PM 4/9/2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>You are forgetting that with nuclear dampers, you can clean up the
>radioactive contamination *easily*. and unless truly amazing numbers of
>weapons are used, the actual *blast* damage will easily disappear on
>something as big as a planet.

This is a good point.  In fact, it's quite possible that the Imperial Corps 
of Engineers (or whatever the Traveller TL-15 equivalent of the present-day 
Army Corps of Engineers) does civil engineering and terraforming with 
nuclear weapons and meson artillery.  A starship armed with a large meson 
gun and a variety of nuclear missiles in bays, and supported by 
decontamination ships equipped with powerful nuclear dampers could - for 
example - clear and level an area of solid rock for a starport or carve out 
a deep water harbor on a coastline in a matter of hours, or dig a sea-level 
canal across Central America in a matter of days (and most of these times 
would be for detail work and decontamination).

>Which reminds me. Some day I need to sit down and try to figure out what 
>would be required to produce a "burned off" world such as appears in some 
>of Norton's books.

While I'm not familiar with Norton's "burned off" worlds (I don't tend to 
read Norton), the easiest way to completely clobber a planet with Traveller 
technology is to drop a few big rocks on it.  With Traveller maneuver 
drives, it should be relatively easy to nudge a number of asteroids in the 
100,000dton or bigger class into an intercept trajectory with a planet, and 
that should be all that's needed.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <000501c1df81$7b919c00$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20409.193923.3g6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>      "While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I
>> don't see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the
>> trick is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it."
>>
>>      Yes, seeding the star with enough tungsten and aiming correctly will
>> take time.  Perhaps the Darrians use multiple probes to increase their
>> chances?
>
> That is a pretty reasonable idea.  I figure they would be jumping in with
> a fleet, not just a squadron.  They probably have a couple of "probe" ships
> and multiple ships that can deliver the meson trigger.
>
> Plus, I also figure they would be dependent on relative surprise.  If they
> face a coordinated defense that is expecting them, they are probably best
> advised to try a different system in a week or so.

Why? 

They can jump in *anywhere* in the system that's outside the *stellar*
100D limit.

Say the two "beam" ships jump in roughly 120 degrees "ahead" and
"behind" the mainworld in it's orbit. And the "probe" ship jumps in
somewhere well to sunward of the mainworld.

Launch the probe, Fire the beams after it reaches the star. Jump out
after a few hours. 

Short of sheer luck, the system defense forces won't get within light
*minutes* of any of the Darrian ships.

That's what makes it such a scary weapon. You have to defend the entire
*system*, not just the planets. And you *can't*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:28 PM 4/9/2002, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
>Team finds a "disk" that contains the secret information. but it is not 
>compatible with what they have on the ship. Now how do they read the 
>information with out destroying the contents.

Good scenario hook.

IMTU, there are Imperial standards for data storage and media, mainly 
promulgated by the Scout Service.  This is not a standard in the sense that 
all equipment is required by law to support it, but rather a de-facto 
standard in the sense that the IISS X-boat system uses a specific set of 
formats to transfer messages.

It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the 
Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of 
pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding 
and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of 
languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate, 
lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications 
protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of 
getting messages into and out of the system.

Couple this with standards (IMTU published by the Travelers' Aid Society) 
for ship-to-ship and ship-to-planet communications (again via text, image, 
audio, video, and holo) and exchange of navigational data of various types, 
and you have a fairly robust infrastructure for communicating - should you 
desire to do so.

The net result should be similar to the modern Internet - any computer 
manufacturer who hopes to have any significant market share at all ensures 
that their equipment can read and write the standard media and formats, and 
can speak the standard protocols.  This doesn't prevent the manufacturers 
from building machines that also support proprietary encoding and 
formats.  However, if you're stuck with a data chip in one of those 
formats, your best bet is to try to find the machine that wrote it, and 
copy the data to a standard format.

In general, things Just Work, unless I (as referee) have a plot reason that 
they don't.  When they don't, When things do Just Work, no Computer skill 
is needed to read a file off of a data cartridge, or send an email message 
via X-boat.  Computer skill covers the ability to figure out what is wrong 
when things don't Just Work, and either write a program to fix the problem 
(or find a tool or other work around to the problem).  I would tend to say 
things like "you've got an Imperial standard data chip here, and on it is 
..." or "This data cartridge is proprietary to a LSP Model 11MP system - 
you need to find one of those to read what's on it.".


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:21:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:21:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:28 PM 4/9/2002, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
>Team finds a "disk" that contains the secret information. but it is not 
>compatible with what they have on the ship. Now how do they read the 
>information with out destroying the contents.

Good scenario hook.

IMTU, there are Imperial standards for data storage and media, mainly 
promulgated by the Scout Service.  This is not a standard in the sense that 
all equipment is required by law to support it, but rather a de-facto 
standard in the sense that the IISS X-boat system uses a specific set of 
formats to transfer messages.

It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the 
Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of 
pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding 
and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of 
languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate, 
lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications 
protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of 
getting messages into and out of the system.

Couple this with standards (IMTU published by the Travelers' Aid Society) 
for ship-to-ship and ship-to-planet communications (again via text, image, 
audio, video, and holo) and exchange of navigational data of various types, 
and you have a fairly robust infrastructure for communicating - should you 
desire to do so.

The net result should be similar to the modern Internet - any computer 
manufacturer who hopes to have any significant market share at all ensures 
that their equipment can read and write the standard media and formats, and 
can speak the standard protocols.  This doesn't prevent the manufacturers 
from building machines that also support proprietary encoding and 
formats.  However, if you're stuck with a data chip in one of those 
formats, your best bet is to try to find the machine that wrote it, and 
copy the data to a standard format.

In general, things Just Work, unless I (as referee) have a plot reason that 
they don't.  When they don't, When things do Just Work, no Computer skill 
is needed to read a file off of a data cartridge, or send an email message 
via X-boat.  Computer skill covers the ability to figure out what is wrong 
when things don't Just Work, and either write a program to fix the problem 
(or find a tool or other work around to the problem).  I would tend to say 
things like "you've got an Imperial standard data chip here, and on it is 
..." or "This data cartridge is proprietary to a LSP Model 11MP system - 
you need to find one of those to read what's on it.".


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <14d.c0033de.29e50df4@aol.com>

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> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
>for first name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
>town where you were born. 
>

   Okay, I'm game. Let's see...

   Why yumpin' yimminy, looks like I'm Kenmu Ersan :)

  -Ken-


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
<BR>&gt;for first name
<BR>&gt; 
<BR>&gt; First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
<BR>&gt;town where you were born. 
<BR>&gt;
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Okay, I'm game. Let's see...
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Why yumpin' yimminy, looks like I'm Kenmu Ersan :)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_14d.c0033de.29e50df4_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 22:10:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Tue Apr  9 21:10:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>

> Star Wars Name =
>
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born.

Hmm..  Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
Using your equation, I'd be:  Shasr Baden

But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

Which for me yields:  Anemet Slabar
I dunno, they're both kinda cool.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Your lack of Pants disturbs me
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 22:19:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr  9 21:19:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <20020410.001437.-391371.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Star Wars Name =
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first 
> name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town 
> where you were born. 

Perho Yaneu?

(yuck!)


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 22:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr  9 21:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8d974f770c0@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:08 PM +1200 4/9/02, Frank Pitt wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote :
>>  While I haven't followed the thread far enough to
>>  follow all the  issues, I think there is a point
>>  to be made here.  One can't just assume insurance
>>  company will force any security measure you can
>>  think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be
>>  unpopular and, unless the savings in costs is
>>  _significant_, there  won't be enough
>>  of a change in premiums to compensate.
>
>The insurance comany won't change it's premiums.
>
>There will just be a clause in the contract, similar to the one
>that exists with most vehicle insurance now, that if your vehicle
>was not warranted at the time of the accident, or it was being
>driven by an unlicensed driver, they won't pay out.
>
>They won't even bother inspecting (or telling you about it) until
>_after_ you make the claim. Then they will ask you for your
>warrant and masters ticket, and if you can't produce them they
>will refuse to pay out.


But we are talking about security measure that are intrusive enough 
that the are a hassle to the day to day operation of a ship.  Some 
people are going to know about them.  Unless they are important 
enough to make a _significant_ change in costs, another company will 
be able to draw at least some customers away buy not having such 
intrusive requirements.

>The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
>required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
>may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
>starport will do it (for important safety and financial reasons,
>would you want an unwarranted vehicle approaching an extremely
>expensve space station?), there won't be any real choice except
>for the captains to take the risk of not doing it and not go to
>the better starports

The presumption is that every insurance company will have such 
requirements.  That requires that you show that such requirements 
make a significant difference in insurance costs.  Otherwise 
insurance companies have no reason to push unpopular requirements.

However, if you can show that such requirements are needed to keep 
theft down to a reasonable level, then you don't need to invoke 
insurance companies requiring it.

In the end, invoking insurance companies is not a way of justifying 
regulations that don't have other basis.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:01:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:01:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409141022.A18068@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410003144.027e33e0@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:10 PM 4/9/02 -0600, you wrote:
>But that doesn't matter.  Free software is not about sticking it to
>Bill Gates; it's about free software.  Gaming is not about sticking to
>to gaming companies (they're generally good people); it's about
>gaming.

Okay.  But my original point that you were responding to was that there are 
unintended consequences regardless of original motives.  I want to make 
sure people who may not be aware of those consequences are informed.

> > I don't know if your "But that is...your problem" remark was
> > intended to sound quite as callous as it came across to me in print,
> > but that's just me, and as you say that's my problem.
>
>I didn't mean it to sound callous, more as a statement of fact.

Okay.  From reading your various emails, I am quite sure you're a nice 
person.  I guess it still sounds a bit callous to me, although it is 
motivated from a concern for the general welfare of all humans everywhere, 
which is certainly not callous.  It is also clear you've spent more than a 
casual amount of time in life pondering such things and you're determined 
not to be a cruel person or any such thing.  I respect you, or anyone else 
who takes a similar position, for taking that position.

I just don't want the script kiddie types piling on the bandwagon.  Or the 
hordes of people who do something because "it's cool".

Respectable Middle-Aged Lady:  "Young man, what are you rebelling against?"
Brando's character:  "Whattaya got?"

But again, people we know (even if only through this mailing list) will be 
directly hurt by the success of competing products.  And the difference is 
those people do this for a living and the competing product at issue would 
be done for fun as a hobby by people with deeper pockets.  Which side of 
that choice is taken by Socrates or Aristotle is only of intellectual 
interest to me.  I just ask myself if that's the result I want.


>Not that I'd directly compete with any of the above.  I write
>software, not supplements.  And yes, my hope is for my GPLed
>Traveller-compatible software to enable a lot of other programmers to
>write more Traveller-compatible software.  And it doesn't bother me
>that this will make it more difficult for others to profit from
>proprietary Traveller-compatible software.  Why should it, any more
>than it bothers Stephen King that he's made it more difficult for
>other to profit from horror novels?

Huh?  I was unaware of your efforts in this area, and of travlib.  Will 
wield the legendary Sword of Google and get to work on that once email is 
caught up, the cats are fed, and I've had a night's sleep.  Please feel 
free to beat me repeatedly around the head and shoulder area with a 
badminton racquet until I follow up on that if it slips.  :->

Why should it bother Stephen King?  Because he should have an ounce of 
sympathy for all the other people out there who are his sisters and 
brothers in spirit: they are compelled to write and be read by others.  Why 
should he have an ounce of sympathy for anyone, especially strangers?  No 
special reason.  It isn't the law, I don't think he will go to heaven or 
hell based on that or anything.  I just think he should.

Why should it bother you?  That's different.  You aren't personally 
dominating an industry so much that other people are being squeezed 
out.  It shouldn't bother you in the least.

I'm not trying to quash all self publishers, hobby publishers, or 
open-source creation of anything.  I'm not trying to call it unethical.  My 
message is that there will be unintended consequences that are undoable if 
open source RPG design really takes off.  And you can't go back home 
again.  People should go ahead and make their own decisions.  Adult, 
responsible, informed decisions.

I'd love to see open source game design of different kinds of games become 
a healthy and thriving activity.  I'd also love to see the people who do 
good work, but can only do so when they are able to devote full time 
attention to it, be healthy and thriving.  There is the forest.  Somewhere 
on its other side is a happy meadow where both things are happening.  There 
are many paths through the forest, and many of those paths go somewhere 
else besides that happy meadow.  As one of my old characters (a really 
reprehensible character) used to say, "Ah'll draw us a map."  That is, I'd 
_like_ to have a map before entering that forest.

--Laning
Q:  What's the best way to make a small fortune in the wargaming industry?
A:  Start with a large one.
      -An old but true saw.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:56 PM 4/9/02 -0600, you wrote:
> > We really should pay someone like Loren or Doug a LOT more money for
> > their work.
>
>Well, it's all a matter of what the market will bear.  Software pays
>better because there's more demand.  RPGs pay worse because there's
>not as much.

The above statement tends to be true but the real world is not as simple 
nor as true as that.  It only becomes a matter of what the market will bear 
when the market is huge and liquid and the product is 'commoditized' as 
they call it.  And even then are problems with preventing marketplace 
manipulation.  I do not think that our free market system is truly free nor 
is it perfectly efficient.  Prices for lots of things fluctuate wildly due 
to [long string of complex and often silly reasons] rather than any 
fundamental economic cause.  I do not believe in placing blind faith in our 
so-called capitalism (which isn't) any more than I would place blind faith 
in the former Soviet so-called communism (which wasn't).  Now that was some 
good music (Blind Faith, that is).


> > What I would be willing to pay for is a more well-thought out
> > game.
>
>That's part of the value add one gets with a professional editor.
>Most people cannot properly edit their own work.  I wonder if it might
>not be possible for there to be money in taking freely-available work
>and compiling it onto one large work.  Slap a compilation copyright
>over the whole thing (to prevent others from just grabbing it up), but
>the individual pieces are still free for anyone.

There's probably some money, but even less than in being a line editor 
now.  It would certainly be a useful contribution.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:12:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>
References: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
 <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
 <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl used the sig:
>Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
>food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
>parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
>they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
>                --Socrates, c.  5th century BC

One of several great sigs you employ, Mister Robert Uhl.  :->

Socrates really didn't much like people who he couldn't keep under his 
thumb, did he?  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:15:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:15:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <20020410051456.C94E127ABE@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/10/02 at 02:08 PM,  "Shane Slamet" <s.slamet@bom.gov.au> said:

>> Star Wars Name =
>>
>> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>>
>> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
>> were born.

>Hmm..  Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
>Using your equation, I'd be:  Shasr Baden

>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name First 3
>letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

>Which for me yields:  Anemet Slabar
>I dunno, they're both kinda cool.

Either way you have the same number of letters in every name. How
about...

First name: The first 1d6 letters of your first name + the first 1d6
letters of your last name.

Last name: The first 1d6 leters of your mother's maiden name + the
first 1d6 letter of the city where you were born.

Jamere Rit
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:26:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:26:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204092104.DSD06042@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011514.027e7ec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 05:04 PM 4/9/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Leonard Erickson asks
> >
> >"the rifle"?
>
>Remington 700 Police DM, in .308. (Comes with HS Precision
>stock with integral aluminum bedding block). Action
>reworked/firing pin replaced with titanium pin, barrel
>replaced with heavy contour Douglas Premium Match barrel,
>Timney trigger, Leupold Mark V M3 10x scope with mil-dot
>reticle, NEAR one-piece scope base optimized to get the most
>elevation adjustement out of the scope, Vortex flash
>suppressor, bipod, Simrad KN-250 GEN III night vision with
>adapter to fit over Leupold Mark V.
>
>Some were frightened just by seeing it, some by going to the
>range with me and *seeing* it.

So we're talking about people who are comfortable enough to go shooting at 
a rifle range, but want to politely form a covert vigilante gang to stop 
you from being around their place of work if you have a really nice target 
rifle.  People call me weird, but I think "people" need to look in the 
mirror sometimes.

--Laning
"A rifle is only a tool. It's a hard heart that kills." -Gunnery Sergeant 
Hartman in 'Full Metal Jacket' by Gustav Hasford, Michael Herr, and Stanley 
Kubrick


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:27:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:27:22 2002
Subject: [TML] When too much time occurs...
Message-ID: <3CB3CC38.F01EE8A9@mail.cswnet.com>

Dig out the Monopoly game...
...locate Vilani by Lonnie:

http://tribble.dreamhost.com/vilani.html

and convert those street names to vilani!!!

Baltic Avenue---Barikune Barik
Conneticut Avenue---Kaanerikuru Nekaan
Atlantic Avenue---Arukanirikune Rukanir
Boardwalk---Buriduurkibu 
[this one I fudged-stuck an "I" in for the last name"
Luxury Tax---Ukukashuriikasharu Kukashurii
Free Parking---Biriiginikira Mibirii
B&O Railroad---Baaduurukar Ibi&aa

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:34:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:34:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <14d.c0033de.29e50df4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEONGFAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Urk

Johlo Nornew no like

Grunt


> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
>for first name 
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
>town where you were born. 
> 

  Okay, I'm game. Let's see... 

  Why yumpin' yimminy, looks like I'm Kenmu Ersan :) 

 -Ken- 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:44:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:44:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:12:37AM -0400
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409234307.A19761@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:12:37AM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> The above statement tends to be true but the real world is not as simple 
> nor as true as that.

What I mean is that man, viewed as an organism, seems not to value RPG
line editors as highly as information architects (but, e.g., higher
than garbagemen).  That valuation has no moral meaning, of course.
It's just that there aren't enough people willing to pay enough to pay
line editors what IT people get.  Would _you_ pay $130 per supplement?

> I do not think that our free market system is truly free nor is it
> perfectly efficient.

Oh, it's certainly not free, which fact leads to numerous injustices
and inefficiencies.  But it's still a market.  _Every_ economy is a
market, no matter how it may try to disguise the fact.

> There's probably some money, but even less than in being a line editor 
> now.  It would certainly be a useful contribution.

Well, it's commonly accepted (among those who think about these
things) that the primary service provided by content providers is
filtering of the dregs.  The Web allowed every man to be a publisher.
And a million million screaming <blink> tags were born.

Filtering of the 5.99 billion morons in the world is an editor's job,
one that most do quite admirably.  Supporting that is a useful thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
           --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:14:40AM -0400
References: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost> <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net> <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost> <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409234739.B19761@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:14:40AM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> One of several great sigs you employ, Mister Robert Uhl.  :->

Thanks for the compliment.  I've rather a large amount of them, to
tell the truth.  I've 264, which are randomly assigned by a Perl
script attached to a named pipe.  Many, I'm afraid, are longer than
the so-called McQ limit (4 lines), but I don't particularly care; it's
a relic of a bygone era.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
This is why they complain--they don't _want_ to have brains.  Those lead
to thoughts, and thoughts cause only suffering.  Thus, by asking them to
think, you are inflicting the torments of the damned on the previously
blissfully ignorant.        --John Rowat, in alt.tech-support.recovery

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:54:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:54:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <200204092132.DSF01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410014708.027e3070@pop.wizard.net>

John T Kwon quoting and responding to Sam D:
> >I think most Marines can hit a torso sized target at 500
> >yards about 100% of the time.
>
>Marines yes, Army infantry, no way.  And that assumes that
>your enemy is standing in the open.  Most experienced
>soldiers go into the prone.  Once you're in the prone, the
>bolt action in the hands of a sniper has the advantage,
>because you can hit grapefruit-sized targets very reliably at
>300 to 400 yards, and most of the time at 500.  Take those
>same Marines and try to have them hit the grapefruit at 500.
>There's probably a Distinguished Marksman in there, isn't
>there?
I couldn't agree more.  I am a Marine who could hit consistently score 5s 
at 500 yards with iron sights, but getting that little grapefruit-sized 
circle is a much bigger challenge.  If I had stayed in the Corps, I think I 
would have continued improving at hitting those bullseyes but it would have 
taken some more years.  And then presbyopia and astigmatism afflicted my 
vision somewhat starting in my mid- to late-30s.  It would have taken years 
to get pretty damned good (for someone who isn't a sniper) and then there 
would have been a small window of quality before declining vision screwed 
that up.  Although it's entirely possible that most of my vision problems 
are related to going into computers during my 30s and spending _way_ too 
much time in front of monitors.



>The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my
>rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these,
>and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get
>him without losing half the team or more."

Apparently he forgot the correct tactical employment of smoke 
grenades.  And maybe his boys don't have those armored gunshields to hide 
behind.  Or if it really comes down to it, use a .50 cal or 20 mm on an APC 
belonging to a nearby Army or Marine unit.  Although I always wondered 
about using wire-guided ATGMs with a standoff spike for those kinds of 
guys, heh.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:56:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <20020409.225614.-2687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 00:14:54 -0500 "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
writes:
>
> 
> Either way you have the same number of letters in every name. How
> about...
> 
> First name: The first 1d6 letters of your first name + the first 1d6
> letters of your last name.
> 
> Last name: The first 1d6 leters of your mother's maiden name + the
> first 1d6 letter of the city where you were born.
> 
> Jamere Rit
> -- 

Oh, I like the options. though my original - Barst Cotor is cool.
Let's see - 5,3,4,1 - Ooops, there's only four letters in my first name.

= Barista Corrt

Not bad

Barst Cotor - Barbarian
Barista Corrt - Other - Barmaid


Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:02:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:02:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <20020410.001437.-391371.2.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204100809390.28175-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

> Star Wars Name =
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first 
> name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town 
> where you were born. 

Mikpa Auhel.

Hilarious...

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410003144.027e33e0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:02:24AM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020409141022.A18068@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020410003144.027e33e0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020410001141.C19761@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:02:24AM -0400, laning wrote:
>
> From reading your various emails, I am quite sure you're a nice
> person.

I'd like to think so, but I've no idea.  Can any man judge himself?

> I just don't want the script kiddie types piling on the bandwagon.  Or the 
> hordes of people who do something because "it's cool".

I'll agree there.  In many ways, popularity is the bane of any set of
ideas.  Witness the twits in computers, the twits in politics, the
twits in religion &c.  Computers, politics and religon are not
inherently twit-ful, but they are plagued by twits nonetheless.

> Huh?  I was unaware of your efforts in this area, and of travlib.

Travlib is a GPLed library intended to, eventually, model the entire
spectrum of the Traveller universe, from galxies to characters.  Right
now, it represents astronomical things only (galaxies, sectors,
subsectors, systems, stars, planets, belts and moons).  It's written
in C, using the gtk+ toolkit for object orientation, with Scheme
bindings using guile to enable easy scripting.

I'm currently working on two projects.  The first is the addition of
First In generation rules, with the code written in Scheme (which I
feel is uniquely suited to this sort of thing); eventually I will be
implementing CT rules as well, although internal data representation
will always be in GT terms, which are for most cases more granular.
The second project is travtrack, a GNOME application which will enable
the user to edit said data (and thus track his Traveller campaigns,
hence the name).  I've got a galaxy browser which is almost
functional...

The site is <http://travtrack.sf.net/>.  It's not over-nice, mostly
because there's not a whole lot to show yet.  My beta version of
travlib is done; travtrack is very much a work-in-progress.  The
application which comes with travlib is called travshell: it is a
Guile interpreter with travlib linked in by default.  This means that
you can write:

(define galaxy (trav-galaxy-new))
(trav-mapobject-set-name galaxy "My First Galaxy")
(define sector (trav-sector-new))
(trav-mapobject-set-name sector "A Beginner Sector")
(trav-mapobject-add-child galaxy sector)

And things like that.  Right now the library using an XML-like schema
for printing data to a file and reading it back, but I'm planning on a
Scheme special forms interface, so that one might write:

(trav-galaxy
#:name "My First Galaxy"
#:comments "The first galaxy I ever created"
  (trav-sector  #:name "A Beginner Sector")
  (trav-sector #:name "Another One"
    (trav-subsector)
    (trav-subsector)))

And so on.  As someone has said, XML is S-expressions with a painful
syntax.  But that will be a long while from now.

> Why should it bother Stephen King?  Because he should have an ounce
> of sympathy for all the other people out there who are his sisters
> and brothers in spirit: they are compelled to write and be read by
> others.

What I mean is that he has raised the standards of his profession
(personally, I loathe him and his work, but his was an example which
leapt to mind); the sympathy he should have for others less able than
he--and who have been harmed because the bar has so been raised--is
much the same sympathy that any of us has for any failure.  Sympathy,
yes.  Aid, certainly.  But no-one would ever say I write good horror
(not that I wish too): that's just a fact of life, in roughly the same
way that I will never win a race.

> Why should it bother you?  That's different.  You aren't personally 
> dominating an industry so much that other people are being squeezed 
> out.  It shouldn't bother you in the least.

Well, open source enables that sort of domination.  Linux Torvalds
wrote an OS.  Tanenbaum no longer, I think, sells many copies of
Minix.  Even the BSD projects are being relegated to the status of
footnote to history (unfairly, in many ways, but in just as many ways
it's their own fault).  It's deuced difficult to compete against free
software.  And by free I don't mean price; I mean freedom.

Regarding those who are threatened thereby, I can only say that I
don't make my living in software.  I'm a Unix system administrator; I
program in my free time.  I cannot do what I like (partially because
what I like includes freeing the product).  When I was younger I spit
chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it
sometime).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Interestingly, most Unix utilities have a command line option which will
cause the system to rip the user's legs off and beat them to death with
the soggy ends.  This is often the default behaviour.    --Bruce Murphy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F164o8C7wyfwjHNuQuN000048cd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410020404.027d89a0@pop.wizard.net>

At 08:59 PM 4/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off some 
>M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and issuing them at 
>the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max 500 yards?) and 
>sniper (800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the guy with the M14 the 
>"designated marksman" or something like that.  The guy who wrote the 
>article I read did not like the idea, because of the the difficulties 
>associated with the accurized M14s as stated above and standardization 
>issues, but from what I understand these were deployed to Afghanistan so 
>we should be getting reports soon.

Glad to hear we're doing that.  It's basically the latest variation on 
something we've at least theoretically been doing for many decades.  Each 
four-man fire team during my time in had one guy designated as the 'sniper' 
or 'marksman' or something.  Can't remember the proper term with any 
certainty.  The problem with that (during my time in) was that the position 
usually had more to do with seniority than marksmanship ability.

Ever since at least WW1, our tactical commanders have tried to concentrate 
a small unit of their best shooters to be available for various 
tasks.  Full-blown official snipers are scarce at even the regiment 
level.  So regiments, battalions, companies, and even platoons have tried 
to single out their most skilled guys for use in this regard.  There have 
been various times when these tactical efforts became a formal part of 
official TO&Es and doctrine.  Other times they were officially disapproved 
and commanding officers had to be more or less surreptitious and subversive 
to do this.  This long-term tendency is probably partly influenced by our 
old role (inherited directly from the British Royal Marines, so it goes 
back to more than two centuries) of providing snipers in the rigging aboard 
sailing ships.

These efforts by tactical commanders have often been mingled with efforts 
to create their own private "Life Guards" unit, if you will, and a recon 
capability.  Commanders like to have a reserve of best-quality troops to 
influence the battle with.  A major conflict within the Marine Corps since 
it is a fundamental axiom of our existence that all Marines are elite and 
none are more elite than others.  It was the major argument against the 
Marine Raider battalions (which were eliminated) and against the Force 
Recon battalions (which were eliminated or nearly so a dozen times in fifty 
years), and it doesn't look to be going away although Force Recon seems to 
be in pretty good health these days.  I have no problem with it and think 
it is a good thing.  I never noticed other Marines getting their feelings 
hurt over it either.  It seems to me more of a theological debate between 
passionate followers of different faiths than anything else.  Or possibly a 
fear that the competition among officers to get their "ticket punched" by 
an assignment to Force Recon was just too exclusive a competition.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:22:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:22:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F36GB9wIWXLU9778dvM000038ae@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022011.027e0130@pop.wizard.net>

At 09:18 PM 4/9/02 +0000, Sam D wrote:
 >>>
Did you guys see that a female teenage Marine won the national matches 
(with an M16) a few years ago?
<<<

OORAH!!


>The .223 is a fairly accurate round, on par with most cartridges.  The 308 
>is theoretically more accurate.  It is certainly more resistant to the 
>wind.  But as far as semi-auto platforms, there is nothing better than 
>Stoner's design.  Put a 308 in an M16 platform, like the AR-10 or SR-25, 
>and you get outstanding accuracy.

I've wondered for a long time about getting an AR-15 or similar chambered 
for .308.  How does it perform on full auto?  (I imagine it has issues with 
the barrel overheating more than a heavier weapon would.)  Rapid semi?  Is 
there even such an animal sold commercially?

Not that I have any actual use for such a thing.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D89BAB.38054%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408135946.02824dd0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>

At 01:22 PM 4/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
>It should be noted that analysis of casualties in the Vietnam war showed the
>5.56x45mm to be 11% more likely to produce a casualty (lethal) than
>7.62x51mm.  Of course the NVA and VC may have just dragged off all the
>bodies with 7.62 holes in them to confise us poor Americans.

Colt was probably paying them a bounty for the corpses with the big bullets 
in them.  Damned megacorps!


> > Including poorer
> > accuracy.
>
>What?!  The M-16 has consistently proved to have a smaller MOA than the M-14
>since adoption and up to the present day.

I am not equipped to wage a war of statistical analyses, and will 
abandon.  Even surrender, if I must.  But let the record show that I  trust 
statistical studies and proving grounds testing only so far.  Anecdotal 
evidence from actual field users of my acquaintance is not convincing (to 
me) for either side of the argument.

I also remind everyone that all other things (like velocity and sectional 
density) being equal, the more massive bullet will penetrate cover better 
and that most troops you're shooting at will seek cover if they're not 
already using it.  Big bullets still have their advantages.

And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting 
results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting 
dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or 
.308?  Or something else?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:39:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:39:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17936@r1clex01.cbr.defe
 nce.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410023924.027e4ad0@pop.wizard.net>

At 10:46 AM 4/10/02 +1000, Mikey (Michael Hughes) wrote:
>PBEM:
>
>I am thinking about running a PBEM D&D game for a friend. Does anyone know
>of a How To website out there for running PBEM RPG sessions?

I was thinking there's a need for the same thing.  Or at least will soon be 
a need.  Perhaps interested parties should form a new mailing list, and 
person or persons on that list be appointed to cull together an FAQ for WWW 
posting?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starship Insurance
In-Reply-To: <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410025025.027e56d0@pop.wizard.net>

After posting information of good pragmatic value to referees, Bill Scheets 
said:

>More on insurance later, if there is sufficient interest.

Keep up the good work!  The faint whirring sound you just heard was my hard 
drive as I saved your full post.

And yes, that's how I remember it working with seat belts.  Then safety 
harnesses.  Probably air bags before not much longer.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 01:10:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 00:10:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20409.111435.4V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410025314.02b56df0@pop.wizard.net>

Leonard says, regarding nuclear warfare:
>If they have reason to *expect* that sort of thing?
>
>A *lot*. Especially given that once nuclear damper tech is available,
>decontamination is a matter of raising the decay rate of the fallout
>and other contaminated material as high as you can without generating
>more heat than you want to deal with.
>
>A planet is a *big* place.
>
>There's also the fact that if you do it to them, you'd better expect
>them to return the favor.

Let us not forget that if the planet is an industrialized world, then most 
of the people and other interesting targets will have conveniently 
clustered themselves together in cities or military bases.  Five or ten 
thousand warheads with 50- to 100-megaton yield that reach their urban, 
suburban, and unhardened military targets will pretty much take that planet 
out of the battle for at least one generation.  Of course, their 
spacefaring navy will not be impacted by this immediately.  And, as you 
say, they'll be looking to return the favor.  I'm just picking random 
numbers, but numbers very easily within the capability of the Ziru Sirka or 
any of the Imperiums.

Sure, there will still remain plenty of places on the planetary surfaces 
that are fairly livable.  But the good harbors, river junctions, mountain 
passes, and natural resource sites will tend to be pretty 
unlivable.  Infrastructure and manufacturing capabilities will be all but 
destroyed, and the people to repair and rebuild will mostly be dead.

If everyone gets a chance to hide in good bunkers first, at least you can 
have huge chunks of population survive the immediate attack.  They'll still 
have to deal with the disabled infrastructure, which will lead to a lot of 
starvation.  Most of the facilities needed to repair and rebuild will still 
be destroyed.

I have too vague an image of how canonical nuclear dampers will precisely 
behave to really describe all how they will help, and what will be beyond 
their help.  It probably varies quite a bit from one referee's TU to 
another's.  I'd guess some referees only have them work if they're focused 
on ground zero at the time of the explosion, while others let you do 
whatever kind of prevention and clean up sounds theoretically within the 
limits of such a technology.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 01:18:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 00:18:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410031600.02c08230@pop.wizard.net>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link:
>I have been making notes on a run for my
>upcoming rebirth Traveller game. Team finds a "disk" that contains the
>secret information. but it is not compatible with what they have on the
>ship. Now how do they read the information with out destroying the
>contents.


I suggest referring to Web pages for professional data recovery 
companies.  Like On Track Data Recovery.
www.ontrack.com but beware of relatively heavy graphics and java scripting.

Western Digital's Web site (mostly known as a hard drive maker) is where I 
usually go to get a bunch of hyperlinks to data recovery firms when I need 
to refer people.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 01:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 00:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20409.224111.2G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Derek Wildstar writes:
>> At 03:46 PM 4/8/2002, Sam Draper wrote:
>>>I have read in tests that little darts at high velocities are
>>>remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do little
>>>tissue damage.
>> 
>>  From what I recall reading, the 60's era Army tests with
>> high-velocity flechettes in the SPIW program.  This weapon was
>> proposed by AAI, and fired 65 gram steel flechette at high velocity
>> (about 4800fps).
>
> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).
> A 65 gram projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.

65 grams is about 2.3 *ounces*. Ouch.

4800 fps = ~1460 m/s. 

Yeek! That's almost 70 kiloJoules muzzle energy! 

Yeah, that'd make folks go splat.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041108.027fb7c0@pop.wizard.net>

>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

That makes me Ingaty Pollan.  Sounds Hungarian or something.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] News from Delphi
Message-ID: <LAW2-F147TrBoe2U8QV000064a3@hotmail.com>

Hi,

I was wondering how is the Delphi history project going, I looked at their 
site, but it hasn't been updated since 2000.

Graham

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <14d.c0033de.29e50df4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020410031345.009c9260@minn.net>

At 11:39 PM 4/9/2002 EDT, you wrote:
>> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname  
>>for first name 
>>  
>> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the  
>>town where you were born.  

Leslie Allen Keller (Mom remarried) St. Charles (or Saint Charles),
Illinois, a suburb of Chicago.

Leska Dostc
Leska Dosai
Leska Dochi
Lesba Dostc
Lesba Dosai
Lesba Dochi

Cool...


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041108.027fb7c0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>
 <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020410032033.009cc4c0@minn.net>

At 04:12 AM 4/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
>>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name
>
>That makes me Ingaty Pollan.  Sounds Hungarian or something.
>
>--Laning

Leslie Allen Keller (Mom remarried) St. Charles (or Saint Charles),
Illinois, a suburb of Chicago.

Lieler Keldon or, Lietes Batdon




=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409234739.B19761@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
 <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
 <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
 <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
 <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041435.027f87e0@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl quoteth me and respondeth:
>On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:14:40AM -0400, laning wrote:
> >
> > One of several great sigs you employ, Mister Robert Uhl.  :->
>
>Thanks for the compliment.  I've rather a large amount of them, to
>tell the truth.  I've 264, which are randomly assigned by a Perl
>script attached to a named pipe.  Many, I'm afraid, are longer than
>the so-called McQ limit (4 lines), but I don't particularly care; it's
>a relic of a bygone era.

Keep up the good work.  :->

>--
>Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>This is why they complain--they don't _want_ to have brains.  Those lead
>to thoughts, and thoughts cause only suffering.  Thus, by asking them to
>think, you are inflicting the torments of the damned on the previously
>blissfully ignorant.        --John Rowat, in alt.tech-support.recovery

Tech support professionals are often more interested in proving their 
intellectual or genetic superiority over the "untermenschen" they "help" 
than in actually fixing problems.  The culture of elitism and braggadocio 
gets inculcated in many tech support reps before they even acquire skill in 
their primary job functions.  Reps who are confined solely to email support 
tend to be the worst.  I speak from personal observation of reps from 
several different companies, but confine my opinions to first and second, 
and sometimes third, echelons of support.

I will now prove my point by bragging.  During my tenure as an AOL tech 
support rep, I was documented to be one of the very top few best at 
actually fixing problems of any rep who has ever been in their database.  I 
rule.  And one of the primary causes of my success was treating each 
customer like a reasonable human being dealing with a problem completely 
unfamiliar to them.  Listen intently, don't talk down.  Think about what 
the actual problem is and how to fix it, don't waste mental bandwidth on 
looking for evidence to support my prejudice that all customers are 
inherently mentally defective.  If I'm so damned superior, what the hell am 
I doing working as a mere tech rep?  Most of the customers I talked to were 
being paid better than most of the reps I worked with.  Now who is the 
dummy?  :->

[And please don't anyone start with that empty and worn out "AOL sucks" 
crap.  Unless you've worked on their dev teams and are familiar with their 
host and network architectures.  And don't start with "AOL tech reps aren't 
real tech reps" unless you've worked with me or one of many, many other 
individuals I could name.  When you have that many thousands of reps, some 
of them are going to be damned good.  If you're still inclined to insult us 
after that, fine.  You'll probably be singing very different types of 
insults though.  I've my own stack of insults for AOL but it's more about 
wasted business opportunities, managers who are empire builders, and 
rampant cronyism.]

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 03:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 02:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020410085426.A2419@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020410191917.B3737@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is
> that if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we
> would prefer that neither of them drop.

Yes, that's one effect.  For example, light photons have sufficient
energy to cause certain chemical changes in pigments in the eye;
that's how we see.

If the chemical energies are a hundred times lower and Planck's
constant is unchanged, a light photon doesn't just affect sensitive
pigments, it rips electrons out of stable molecules and breaks
chemical bonds.  That's what we normally call "ionising radiation".

We can't just use light that has a hundred times lower frequency,
because it has a hundred times longer wavelength.  OK, I guess we can,
but it involves changing the speed of light...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 03:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Wed Apr 10 02:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041435.027f87e0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


AOL *does* suck.  I was a member back in 1996-97.  I had nothing but
problems with that wretched service.  My personal information was sold
to all sorts of bulk-emailers, spammers and porn sites.  The 45 minute
"click on this" to stay online button was a pain in the ass.  If you
minimized AOL and ran a browser, you didn't even get the warning..you
just got disconnected.   If you started AOL minimized, you'd get one of
their "click on this yes or no" advertisements and could not click on it
to finish logging on..so you had to disconnect and restart the whole
program.

Downloading was a joke.  You had to sit at your computer and wait for
the 45 minute button or lose the download.  (downloading the demo to
Wing Commander: Prophesy (69megs) was terrible).

I had to deal with a ton of unwanted porn mail and spam.  I had to deal
with the above frustrations.  I had to deal with support people
(obviously I never got you) who were clueless.

I had just paid for a month's time when I called up and said I wanted to
terminate my membership.  The person on the phone explained that they
could not refund my money and that I had almost a full month left.  I
said it didn't matter, I just wanted out.  So he turned my account off
and that was that.

2 months later, I got a bill from AOL saying I owed them for a month's
services.  So I had to call them and explain that I wasn't a member and
had quit in good standing.  The person on the phone looked into it and
agreed it was a mistake and told me it would be taken care of.

1 month later I get a second notice in the mail, demanding I pay my bill
or else.  Again I call them up and again they apologize and fix the
problem.

1 month after that, I get a notice saying that they are forwarding my
bill to a collection agency.  I call up and this time I tell them that
if AOL ever mails me again or contacts me in any way, I will sue.  The
person on the phone was very apologetic and promised I would never be
bothered again.

I wasn't.

A few months later, my mother calls me on the phone sounding concerned.
She asks, "Is everything ok?"  I replied to her, "yeah, why do you ask?"
She then tells me that AOL sent a past-due notice to her in my behalf
and that she paid it.

So AOL managed to *steal* money from my family that they had no right
to.  To this day I still get their stupid free CDs in the mail.

There are very VERY few things in this life I hate more than AOL.  If I
could destroy AOL and get away with it, I promise you I would.  They
have made an enemy of me for life.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 03:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Wed Apr 10 02:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410031600.02c08230@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <001701c1e075$33bf6020$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----


I suggest referring to Web pages for professional data recovery 
companies.  Like On Track Data Recovery.
www.ontrack.com but beware of relatively heavy graphics and java
scripting.

Western Digital's Web site (mostly known as a hard drive maker) is where
I 
usually go to get a bunch of hyperlinks to data recovery firms when I
need 
to refer people.

--Laning



Use an oscilloscope.  Read the magnetic wavelength off the platters and
subtract the perfect part of the signal.  What you have left is data.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <200204101125.DTH00304@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>
>= Barista Corrt
>

Sounds like you work at Starbucks.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gearhead Goodies: couple of rocket missile books
Message-ID: <3CB3DC6C.16284.140D91@localhost>

friend of mine has been flying model rockets for years, and he was showing me some 
blueprints and a  couple of books on rockets and missiles. 

www.arapress.com
the Spaceship Handboook and Rockets of the World



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGGCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> >
> >A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
> >bone from a walrus penis.  See
> >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html
>
So when I tell my girlfriend that I've got a "Boner",
I'm really speaking Eskimo?

-Shawn-



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:35:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:35:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEGGCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> >
> >A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
> >bone from a walrus penis.  See
> >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html
>

Ancient Eskimo wisdom say:
Never knife fight man with hairy palms.

-Shawn-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:52:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:52:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F217LltyKF5Q6JVW8s20001d6e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410044431.009e86c0@mindspring.com>

At 02:22 AM 4/10/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the 
>conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.

In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat 
in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?

Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public 
opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the 
region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.

All of these could be applied to the 1st Interstellar War.  The Vilani 
might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really capable of, or were 
under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder.  ISTR from losing endless 
games of Imperium to Craig that the Imperial governor was beholden to his 
superiors.. asking for the necessary firepower was a big blow to his 
prestige.  Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion snetients would do?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> 
> At 07:28 PM 4/9/2002, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
> >Team finds a "disk" that contains the secret information. but it is not 
> >compatible with what they have on the ship. Now how do they read the 
> >information with out destroying the contents.
> 

IMTU I have what's called "Imperial Standard".
These items cost 0-10% above the LBB price.
Anything Imperial Standard has compatible connectors
and data formats. Thus your Inertial Map Locator
can connect to your communicator to transmit it's data
to another players communicator, that is connected to 
his map box and hand computer. You get the drift.

-Shawn-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> QUOTE
> The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
> civilians.  It has little or no military application,
> contrary to popular mythos.
> END QUOTE
> 

Commanders who have given the order to "fix bayonets" to
scared troops, often notice an increased level of confidence
and moral. 

-Shawn-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

While putting together an exploratory cruiser for TNE (coming shortly) I
reread the information in the Solomani & Aslan book regarding the Solomani
explorations into the neighbouring Perseus arm of the galaxy.

It struck me that the ships of these expeditions would be quite challenging
to design. Mission length must have been in decades so the ships must have
been to a great extent self supporting. But just how would the ships cross
into the next arm?

Contrary to popular opinion there are stars in the gaps between the arms,
the spirals themselves being defined by bright stars. But as to how many
stars and whether fuel sources could be found there?

Assuming the ships were built to TL14 or 15 standard this means jump 5 or 6
maximum, and it is likely that in the "gaps" fuel sources may be further
apart than this. Very embarrassing for a ship to run out of fuel!

So IMHO the ships would also be fitted with Bussard Rams to scoop up the
hydrogen found in the space between arms. This would not be used for the
HePLar thruster but to refuel the jump drive and power plant. (Though this
makes the ship even bigger as it does have to carry enough maneuver fuel to
get up to a velocity where the Ram Scoop functions.

Any ideas?

Anyone want to have a go at designing one using FFS1?
Could such a ship work at all given Traveller Tech limits?

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409234307.A19761@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:12:37AM -0400
Message-ID: <3CB4DAB8.15448.3769A3@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 23:43, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> What I mean is that man, viewed as an organism, seems not to value RPG
> line editors as highly as information architects (but, e.g., higher
> than garbagemen).  That valuation has no moral meaning, of course.
> It's just that there aren't enough people willing to pay enough to pay
> line editors what IT people get.  Would _you_ pay $130 per supplement?

If the NZ dollar drops back to its former low vs the US$ and the price 
in the US of supplements goes up much more, I'll be forced to pay about 
that or do without. And if they were good supplements for a game I was 
playing (or was likely to in the near future) I probably would, sucker 
that I am.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>
References: <B8D89BAB.38054%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4DCF1.26051.4017AA@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 2:36, laning wrote:

> I also remind everyone that all other things (like velocity and sectional 
> density) being equal, the more massive bullet will penetrate cover better 
> and that most troops you're shooting at will seek cover if they're not 
> already using it.  Big bullets still have their advantages.

Yep. A source of complaint from the older guys when we switched from 
the L1A1s (a bit before my time, though the Air Farce was still using 
them in the early 90s) to the M16A1 and finally the Stryr AUG was that 
the 5.56mm bullet wouldn't go through 18" or 2' thick pine trees, 
whereas the 7.62x51 bullet would.
 
> And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting 
> results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting 
> dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or 
> .308?  Or something else?

I'd be quite happy with a .308, as long as I was used to the particular 
weapon. I'd prefer a .30-06, or in very close country a 12ga magnum 
shotgun (pump or semi-auto). However a lot depends on whether it's thin 
skinned or not - Leopards run up to 150-160 pounds and .243 is 
considered adequate for them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041435.027f87e0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <20020409234739.B19761@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3CB4DE5E.18426.45A995@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 4:35, laning wrote:

> Think about what the actual problem is and how to fix it, don't waste
> mental bandwidth on looking for evidence to support my prejudice that
> all customers are inherently mentally defective. If I'm so damned
> superior, what the hell am I doing working as a mere tech rep?  Most
> of the customers I talked to were being paid better than most of the
> reps I worked with.  Now who is the dummy?  :-> 

Now, I agree with you about not wasting mental bandwidth, but you've 
got the reason all wrong. the real reason to not look "for evidence to 
support my prejudice that all customers are inherently mentally 
defective" is that unless you've a self-esteem problem (like many of 
your co-workers obviously did) you'll know beyond a shadow of a doubt 
that you're superior. That being the case, why waste time proving 
something already self-evident?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 07:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed Apr 10 06:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Portland class scout cruiser
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBGEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

PORTLAND CLASS SCOUT CRUISER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION

The Portland class fitted into the small gap between escorts and light
cruisers. Most were deployed with the Confederations exploration division,
though the limited jump capacity, 1xJump-3 was considered something of a
hindrance, though careful mission planning could overcome this to some
extent. Portlands ranged far and wide, both on exploration and intelligence
work. Some were used by the Confederation navy, the two parallel 7,000Mj
N-PAW weapons providing a useful capability. More being used as defacto
cruisers as the 2nd Rim War progressed.

The Confederations exploration division responded to this by somehow
ensuring that most of the Portlands operated by them managed to stay far
beyond the Confederations borders. This also meant that a disproportionate
number of this class survived the war and the impact of virus.

In the absence of more capable vessels the Confederation also despatched a
number of Portlands on long range missions to search for any sign of
returning vessels from the Perseus Arms expeditions. These too had failed to
return when virus swept through the Solomani Confederation.


General Data Displacement: 15,000 tons  Hull Armour: 60
Length: 180 meters  Volume: 210,000 cubic meters
Price: MCr6,885.97438  Target Size: L
Configuration: Wedge SL  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 137,937.6836/122,269.5345 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 25,287Mw Fusion Power Plant (99.95Mw/hit), 1
year duration (83.7951Mw surplus)
Jump Performance: 1xJump-3 (42,000 cubic meters)
G-Rating: 3 (7,500Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 82 (96.9 with jump-2 reserve, 111.9 with jump-1 reserve, 126.8 with
no jump reserve), 937.5 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 5,012

Electronics Computer: 3xTL13 Fb (0.9Mw each)
Commo: 2x300,000km Radio (10 hexes, 10Mw each), 2x1,000AU Maser (8, 0.6Mw
each),
Avionics: TL10+ Avionics
Sensors: 2x150,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (5 hexes; 0.2Mw each),
2x300,000km Active EMS (10 hexes; 27.5Mw each), 2xTL13 Densitometer (0.9Mw
each), 2xTL12 Neutrino Sensor (0.01Mw each), 12xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw
each)
ECM/ECCM: EM Masking (210Mw), 36xDecoy Dispensors
Controls: Bridge with 98xBridge Workstations, Auxiliary Bridge with
98xBridge Workstations, Flag Bridge with 11x Bridge Workstations, Fire
Control Bridge with 15xBridge Workstations, plus 252 other workstations

Armament Offensive: 2xTL13 7,000Mj Parallel Mount N-PAWs (Loc: 4,5; Arcs:1;
194.4445Mw each; 19 Crew each), 20xTL13 106Mj Laser Turrets (Loc:
4x2,4x3,4x8,4x9,4x10 ; Arcs: 1,2,3; 29.4445Mw each; 1 Crew each), 8xMissile
100-ton Bays (Loc: 2x6,2x7,2x14,2x15; each with 4 missile/recce drones and
96 missiles or recce drones each; 0.15Mw each; 1 Crew each)

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
7,000Mj Parallel N-PAW  10:418  20:418  40:418  80:418
106Mj Laser Turret  10:1/8-26  20:1/6-20  40:1/3-10  80:1/2-5
-2 Difficulty Levels

Defensive: TL13 Meson Screen (PV=285; 90Mw; 4 Crew), 6xTL13 Nuclear Damper
Barbettes (Loc: 3x16,3x17; Arcs: All; 9Mw each; 1 Crew each), 10xTL13
Sandcaster Turrets (Loc: 5x18,5x19; Arcs: All; 2D6x5 per hit; 35 Cannisters
each; 1Mw each; 1 Crew each)
Master Fire Directors: 7xTL13 (4 Diff Mod; Beam; 10 hexes; 2.95Mw each; 1
Crew each), 8xTL13 (4 Diff Mod; Beam/Missile; 10 hexes; 3.1Mw each; 1 Crew
each)

Accommodations Life Support: Extended (42Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
1050Mw)
Crew: 675/687 (252xEngineering, 6xElectronics, 4xManeuver, 131xGunnery,
52xMaintenance, 41xShip's Troops, 6xFlight Crew, 156xCommand, 23xSteward,
5xMedical),Flagship adds (3xElectronics, 8xCommand, 1xSteward)
Crew Accommodations: 382xSmall Staterooms (0.0005Mw each), 10xLow Berths
(0.001Mw each)
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 1,355.7 cubic meters, four large cargo hatches
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: 1 15-ton RF14D Scorpion class recon
fighter with internal hanger (minimal) and one launch port, 2 30-ton Puffin
class ship's boats with internal hangers (minimal) and one launch port each
Air Locks: 150
Additional Fittings: 2x8-ton Sick Bays (0.8 Mw each), 2x10-ton Machine Shops
(1 Mw each), 2x6-ton Electronics Shops (0.6Mw each)

Notes
Fuel purification equipment (121.4037Mw) is sufficient to purifiy 24,280.74
cubic meters in 6 hours (30 hours for entire load exclusive of power plant
fuel) Fuel scoop capacity is 42,000 cubic meters per hour (2.83 hours for
entire load exclusive of power plant fuel).

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  		Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  		Systems
1  			1-2:Ant  		1-19:Elec,20:Qtrs  		PP-253H,JD-252H,
2-3   					1:LT,2-16:Qtrs,17-20:Hold  	FPP-170H,
4-5,12-13  		1:AL  		1-2:PA,3-20:Hold  		LS-123H,PA-80H,
6-7,14-15  		1:AL  		1-2:PA,3-7:MBy,8-20:Hold  	ELS-62H,AG-42H,
8-10  		1:AL  		1-2:PA,3:LT,4-20:Hold  		MD-23H,EMM-21H,
11  			1:LP,2:CH  		1-2:PA,3-20:Hold  		Hanger-21H,
16-17  		1:AL,2:Decoy  	1-2:PA,3:ND,4-5:Elec,6-20:Hold  MScreen-14H,
18-19  		1:AL,2-4:EMMR  	1-2:PA,3:Sand,4-20:Eng  	MBy-14H,ND-1H,
20  			1:EMMR  		1-2:PA,3-20:Eng  			LT-1H,Sand-1H,
   											ElecShop-1H,
   											MachineShop-1H,
   											SickBay-1H,
   											EMMR-(210h),MFD-(4h),
   											MFDAnt-(2h),AEMS-(2h),
   											Neutrino-(2h),SSR-(2h),
   											All others-(1h)

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
Message-ID: <200204101359.DTL04671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Antony Farrell" asks
<snip question about how to refuel in the middle of nowhere>

There are many brown dwarfs that are probably not on star 
charts, substellar or even Jupiter-sized gas giants in the 
middle of nowhere.

Ice balls, cometary bodies, etc.  Even clouds of hydrogen, 
depending on where you are.

You might, as you say, require specialized equipment to 
locate, identify, and exploit such resources.

Also, your ship may have backup power generation that 
provides a means of keeping the crew alive and the ship able 
to move enough to collect fuel.  This backup power generation 
is probably nuclear fission, which allows the ship to 
potentially go without hydrogen (albeit without jumping 
anywhere) for some time.

You may also remember Annic Nova.  That ship used power 
accumulators (and solar power to load them). 

So let's consider a ship with a nuclear fission base 
powerplant (to keep everyone nice and warm, and provide a 
little extra power to charge jump accumulators a la Annic 
Nova).  We'll also throw in a deployable solar array, in case 
we're near a star.

If we're in the middle of nowhere, with no sunlight, we 
charge the accumulators off of the excess power from the 
fission reactor.  If we're near a star, it's a bit quicker to 
recharge, since we get some solar power.

There might even be additional closed-cycle hydrogen/oxygen 
fuel cells.  These could be recharged from any other power 
production, and could be endlessly recycled.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022011.027e0130@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D9980E.382D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 11:24 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

>> The .223 is a fairly accurate round, on par with most cartridges.  The 308
>> is theoretically more accurate.  It is certainly more resistant to the
>> wind.  But as far as semi-auto platforms, there is nothing better than
>> Stoner's design.  Put a 308 in an M16 platform, like the AR-10 or SR-25,
>> and you get outstanding accuracy.
> 
> I've wondered for a long time about getting an AR-15 or similar chambered
> for .308.  How does it perform on full auto?  (I imagine it has issues with
> the barrel overheating more than a heavier weapon would.)  Rapid semi?  Is
> there even such an animal sold commercially?
> 
> Not that I have any actual use for such a thing.

Been living in a cave?  The original AR design was for a .308 (AR-10).
Current variants include the AR-10 and SR-25.  Like any full-auto .308, the
AR-10 is difficult to control.

It should be noted that the AR-10 and clones are no more prone to
overheating than any other .308 as current guns use barrels that are
comparable to other rifles.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <F210hWdlurZFj9V1M0i00013a41@hotmail.com>

>
> > Star Wars Name =
> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
> > name
> >
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town
> > where you were born.
>
>Mikpa Auhel.
>
>Hilarious...

Gresm Mopit

aka Andma Mopit



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D99957.382D9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 11:36 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting
> results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting
> dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or
> .308?  Or something else?

You forgot to add:  "Using ball ammunition only".

We are speaking of military weapons here, so let's get the ammo right.
There is no question that if ammunition selection is not restricted,
7.62x51mm is more lethal.

Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 over 7.62x51mm
ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
any particular caliber.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:28:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:28:22 2002
Subject: [TML] [Fwd: TML Landrgrab]
Message-ID: <3CB44B6D.D543DDB3@premier.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Another JTAS subscriber want to join in the Landgrab.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.
--------------905666F0ED2E48681BD24B32
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Return-Path: <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
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From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
To: "'landgrab@downport.com'" <landgrab@downport.com>
Cc: "'wombat@premier.net'" <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: TML Landrgrab
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 09:47:20 -0400
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I would like to stake a claim on the following worlds in the Spinward
Marches:

Keng/Regina
Kegena/Rhylanor

Thanks,

	Brian Hurrel

Brian L. Hurrel
ICS Analyst
EDS
(973) 682-5578



--------------905666F0ED2E48681BD24B32--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:30:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:30:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20409.224111.2G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D99A5C.382DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 11:41 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> 
>> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).
>> A 65 gram projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.
> 
> 65 grams is about 2.3 *ounces*. Ouch.
> 
> 4800 fps = ~1460 m/s.
> 
> Yeek! That's almost 70 kiloJoules muzzle energy!
> 
> Yeah, that'd make folks go splat.

I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.

69,562 Joules of energy
1,130 joules of free recoil

25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:31:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:31:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <F101tqbFkSX50mLWfFz0001f08d@hotmail.com>

>>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
>>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name
>
>That makes me Ingaty Pollan.  Sounds Hungarian or something.

Oryith Smimoo  / Regith Smimoo (if I went with 'Greg')

aka

Rewock MacMoo

Not too bad, eh?




Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F221lf8nFJ3VTPlu4kA0000f71e@hotmail.com>

Tod Glen wrote:>Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 
over 7.62x51mm
>ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
>is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
>any particular caliber.

It is a tuff call.  It appears that the 5.56mm does actually make bigger 
wounds, as long as there is sufficient tissue to penetrate, as long as the 
velocity is above 2700 fps.  With an M16 that is like 200- yards; with the 
M4 it is only 100-140 yards.  After that range, you are better off with the 
bigger round.  And the 7.62x51 certainly penetrates through cover better at 
all ranges.  But however you weigh those tradeoffs, there is no doubt that 
you are going to have to be carrying around an extra 5-10 pounds of gear 
with the bigger rifle.

It is my understanding that there is some griping after Afghanistan about 
the M4's performance.  Its lack of "stopping power" and penetration is being 
critisized.  With the 62 grain bullet, I think the muzzle velocity is only 
like 2900 fps.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F116kY5TetpIuPHDXE20001de7d@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting
>results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting
>dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or
>.308?  Or something else?

Using soft points, .308 (7.62)is actually probably overkill a bit for (human 
sized) deer.  Something in the .257 to .284 (7mm) range is adequate.  Most 
people still go with .30 caliber, because it is popular and it gives a 
little margin for error.  .308 is more appropriate for larger game, like elk 
(400 + pounds, with a much heavier bone structure).  It is important to keep 
in mind that when the US Army went to .30 caliber cartridges, they thought 
it was still important to stop a horse.  I think their choice goes a little 
overboard for infantry.  The Army has thought about going to a 7mm cartridge 
twice.  The first time, between the wars, it was decided that it would be a 
mistake to make all of the 30-06 ammo laying around obsolete.  The second 
time, under pressure from the British after WWII, the Army was still in awe 
of the Garand's performance and decided to go with 30-06 ballistics in a 
shorter package.

Then they went to .22.  Go figure.  The British were not too pleased.  And 
the rest of the Western world ended up with 7.62x51 rifles that are 
difficult to control, to put in lightly, on full-auto.

IMHO an assault rifle in the 6.5-7mm range and a velocity of 2800 fps would 
be a fine weapon.  Good for deer too.

.223 is largely considered underpowered for deer of the size you mention.  
It is legal where I live, but one problem you run into is that you must use 
soft points and they will not yeild sufficient penetration.  I read an 
article last year by a guy who went and shot a bunch of deer with centerfire 
.22s, and his conclusion was that the results were good so long as (1) you 
use bullets that hold together well, like Nosler partitions, and (2) the 
velocity is above 2700 fps, which coincidentally is the critical velocity 
for FMJ ammo too.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>; from ShawnSears@telocity.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:05:34AM -0400
References: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20020410095004.A21459@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:05:34AM -0400, Shawn R Sears wrote:
> 
> Commanders who have given the order to "fix bayonets" to
> scared troops, often notice an increased level of confidence
> and moral. 

This may be related to the visceral fear one feels when faced with a
blade: when on the wielding end, it may possibly feel much more
empowering than a simple rifle does.

I know in my own case that I feel somehow more prepared when carrying
a sword than when carrying a rifle or pistol.  This may even be the
real reason dress swords have survived as long as they have.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I once successfully declined a departmental retreat, saying that on that
day I planned instead to advance.                    --Alan J. Rosenthal

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F215PT3lz5yrFVq9GNS00002f52@hotmail.com>

laning said:

>I've wondered for a long time about getting an AR-15 or similar chambered
>for .308.  How does it perform on full auto?  (I imagine it has issues with
>the barrel overheating more than a heavier weapon would.)

I imagine that full-auto is uncontrollable.  The were only a few thousand of 
the original AR-10s made (for Portugal and the Sudan?), and they only 
weighed like 7 pounds.  I believe the SR-25 and modern AR-10 are heavier, 
like the same as an M14.  To tell you the truth, I am not even sure if they 
make full-auto versions.  It would probably be a little more controllable 
than an M14, even if it was the same weight, because the stock is in line 
with the barrel.

>Rapid semi?

I think you would get good results.  Israel uses the SR-25 as a sniper 
rifle, in conjunction with Remington 700s.

>Is there even such an animal sold commercially?

The SR-25 is made by an outfit called Knight's Armament, and the AR-10 is 
made by Armalite.  Both are for sale to the public; I think the AR-10 can be 
had for as little as $1,000.

>Not that I have any actual use for such a thing.

That is what my wife says about all of this Traveller stuff.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F206POYFSrAuWiqJmdT00013683@hotmail.com>

laning wrote:

>At 08:59 PM 4/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>>On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off some
>>M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and issuing them at
>>the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max 500 yards?) and
>>sniper (800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the guy with the M14 the
>>"designated marksman" or something like that.>
>Glad to hear we're doing that.  It's basically the latest variation on
>something we've at least theoretically been doing for many decades.

I guess the army is experimenting with the same concept, although they are 
using M16s with free floated 18" match barrels, supressors, and Leupold 
2.5-8 scopes.  I don't think these are for general issue, but have gone to 
special forces.  Some of the AP pictures show these weapons in use in 
Afghanistan.

I am sure the Army and Marines will be able to evaluate their respective 
designs, and rationally decide which approach is the best.  ;)

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 10:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 09:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204101603.DTP06500@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>
>It is my understanding that there is some griping after 
>Afghanistan about the M4's performance.  Its lack 
>of "stopping power" and penetration is being 
>critisized.  With the 62 grain bullet, I think the muzzle 
>velocity is only 
>like 2900 fps.
>

There was the same griping about the M4 from the Somalia 
experience.  Some people were hit as many as six times in the 
torso at less than 50 yards, and did not go down, or even 
slow down.  Now, some of the targets were high on khat, which 
is a stimulant, so it's hard to say.  I think of "high" 
people the same way I think of deer - unless you hit them in 
the right spot, they are going to try and run.  

For deer and 4-legged animals, I usually try and hit the 
shoulder, looking for a bone hit.  This means that I must 
have a bullet capable of breaking bone on impact at the 
desired range.

For people, other than a head hit, I'm thinking that 
shattering the pelvis would be very useful, but I'm thinking 
that's a heavier bone than deer shoulder.

It almost makes me think that if you really wanted to be sure 
of putting someone down, you have to hit them in just the 
right spot.  An M4 through the skull is going to put you 
down.  

It's too bad we don't use hunting ammunition in combat.  I 
think that if we had a better optimized bullet, the M4 would 
be fine.  Maybe not very good at armor penetration anymore, 
but great at stopping.  It was said earlier that non-ball 
makes a .308 very deadly.  Sure.  And a .338 even more so.  
But if we're stuck with 5.56mm, then we should redesign the 
round to maximize wounding.  Probably go back to a lighter 
bullet for the M4 (since we're shorter range anyway), maybe 
even 50 grains, and make it a varmint bullet designed to blow 
apart inside the body (to make a temporary cavity a permanent 
one). Get that velocity up, and make sure the round does not 
exit the body.

To paraphrase Apocalypse Now, to prosecute people for war 
crimes (like using hunting ammunition) is like handing out 
speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

 
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 10:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 09:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F11APfrrF69u7tS1RkF00004676@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon says:

>There was the same griping about the M4 from the Somalia
>experience.  Some people were hit as many as six times in the
>torso at less than 50 yards, and did not go down, or even
>slow down.  Now, some of the targets were high on khat, which
>is a stimulant, so it's hard to say.

From what I understand, the guys in Somalia had not yet been issued M4s; 
they had XM177s/CAR-15s with little 10 or 11 inch barrels.  The muzzle 
velocity with those weapons is only like 2500 fps.

In the book Blackhawk Down, one of the Rangers unloads his M60 on a guy and 
it takes a few bursts to put him down.  We ought to issue that Khat to our 
troops!

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 10:58:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 09:58:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <20020410.095929.-78189.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 07:25:02 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com  says
> >
> >= Barista Corrt
> >
> 
> Sounds like you work at Starbucks.

Yea, Starbucks in Startown - Lousy place for coffee, but the actions not
bad.

Just remember to roll the R's in "Corrt" bucko, or I'll have ya tossed
outa here by our new bouncer - Barst Cortor the 7 foot tall 300 lb
Barbarian.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204100809390.28175-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <DAV32eCyWu1MRRNOqcC0001c03c@hotmail.com>

> > Star Wars Name =
> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
> > name
> >
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town
> > where you were born.

Bilsc Guazl  [sigh]

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <200204101709.DTR06672@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>> > Star Wars Name =
>> >
>> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your 
surname for first
>> > name
>> >
>> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of 
the town
>> > where you were born.
>

Trying this again.  John Kwon.  Chapel Hill.  Mother's maiden 
name is Sweezy.

Joh + kw = Johkw
Sw + Cha = Swcha

Johkw Swcha

Not very easy to pronounce.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5@aol.com>

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   Shane writes:
> Star Wars Name =
>
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born.

Hmm..  Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
Using your equation, I'd be:  Shasr Baden

But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

Which for me yields:  Anemet Slabar
I dunno, they're both kinda cool.

   Hmmm, okay, that sounds cool too--lets see what I get :)

   Ethphy Murerw? I dunno... I think I liked Kenmur Ersan better :)
  -Ken Murphy-


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Shane writes:
<BR>&gt; Star Wars Name =
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
<BR>&gt; were born.
<BR>
<BR>Hmm.. &nbsp;Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
<BR>Using your equation, I'd be: &nbsp;Shasr Baden
<BR>
<BR>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
<BR>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
<BR>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name
<BR>
<BR>Which for me yields: &nbsp;Anemet Slabar
<BR>I dunno, they're both kinda cool.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Hmmm, okay, that sounds cool too--lets see what I get :)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Ethphy Murerw? I dunno... I think I liked Kenmur Ersan better :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40@aol.com>

--part1_99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40_boundary
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   Rob wrote:
   When I was younger I spit
chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it
sometime).
 
   It'd be an interesting exercise to see if the skills acquired could be 
generated using CT's "Other" career, or whether you'd have to knockout an 
entirely new set of skill tables--a somewhat scary proposition either way you 
look at it :)
  -Ken-
   Who is currently halfway through his 5th term in a still-as-yet 
undetermined career ;P
   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Rob wrote:
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;When I was younger I spit
<BR>chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it
<BR>sometime).
<BR> 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;It'd be an interesting exercise to see if the skills acquired could be generated using CT's "Other" career, or whether you'd have to knockout an entirely new set of skill tables--a somewhat scary proposition either way you look at it :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Who is currently halfway through his 5th term in a still-as-yet undetermined career ;P
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Craig Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020410143005.F2EB127AB3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0204100927470.24254-100000@hollywood.cinenet.net>

> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 04:49:00 -0700
> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> At 02:22 AM 4/10/02 +0000, you wrote:
> >Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the
> >conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.
>
> In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat
> in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?
>
> Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public
> opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the
> region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.

And a muddled, unrealistic set of goals for the operation.  We went in
with no understanding of Vietnamese history, society, psychology, or
politics, and expected to galvanize the South into a uniform resistance
force and to persuade the North to back off based on our *potential*
ability to stomp them flat.  Nobody ever seems to have considered what
would happen if they called our bluff.

> All of these could be applied to the 1st Interstellar War.  The Vilani
> might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really capable of, or were
> under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder.  ISTR from losing endless
> games of Imperium to Craig that the Imperial governor was beholden to his
> superiors.. asking for the necessary firepower was a big blow to his
> prestige.  Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion snetients would do?

You recall correctly, and in my mind this is sufficient to explain how the
Terrans managed their initial victories while outnumbered and outgunned
thousands to one (taking into account the full Vilani might).  I get the
strong sense that the Ziru Sirka practiced "shoot the messenger"-style
management a great deal; the status quo and normal operations were
the ideal, and regional governors were tacitly expected to report
"everything is okay!" while quietly dealing with any irregularities before
they came to wider attention.  To admit that a situation had come up that
you couldn't handle was taken as a failure of planning or procedure, with
the obvious effects on your career.

I am very strongly of the opinion that the local Vilani governor knew all
about the Terrans; probably several of them did, over the century or two
immediately preceding official contact.  Remember, the ZS was quite used
to encountering minor human races as it expanded, and I'm sure there were
exhaustively documented procedures and case studies on how to proceed with
their integration into the ZS.  The Terrans simply didn't operate
according to the 'rules', and the governor was terrified to report this
fully to his superiors.  The rest is (future) history.

-- 
   |   Craig Berry - http://www.cinenet.net/~cberry/
 --*--  "All that lives is holy." - William Blake
   |


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCELGDOAA.andy@exeus.com>

> But the thing is, I always thought the equation was: 
> Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name 
> First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name 

Rewick Briglo at your service.

Andy Brick
75% of Term 4 done. Aging rolls only a short while away ...
 
 
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.345 / Virus Database: 193 - Release Date: 09/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
Message-ID: <200204101734.DTT01888@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

For a good look at a list of 'munitions' please see

http://www.eurospace.org/usml.pdf

Tedious.  It seems to be whatever may be remotely useful in a 
weapon-related sense.  No plasma guns on the list - yet.

ObTrav: Still wondering how to handle "permits".  Or even the 
law level restrictions (which I think are odd - of course, 
there aren't any real countries where the rules make sense).

It could be worse.  If you want to hunt in Germany you have 
to wear the Keebler Elf outfit.

"It says here on the back of the permit that if I want to 
carry my PGMP in public, I have to wear the "customary" pink 
bike shorts and traditional "penguin" face mask."
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
In-Reply-To: <200204101734.DTT01888@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:34:43PM -0400
References: <200204101734.DTT01888@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020410120024.A21755@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:34:43PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> It could be worse.  If you want to hunt in Germany you have 
> to wear the Keebler Elf outfit.

???

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Friends don't let civilian friends report military affairs.  It
embarrasses the reporter, and grossly misleads the public.
                                                 --Laning

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40@aol.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGMCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1E099.1C0062D0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 Rob wrote: 
  When I was younger I spit 
chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it 
sometime). 

Chicken Spitting?

It sounds like something a lion might do if the chicken tasted fowl. ;-)

-Shawn-

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1E099.1C0062D0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;Rob wrote: =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;When I was=20
younger I spit <BR>chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe =
I'll=20
write it <BR>sometime).&nbsp;<BR><BR></FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Chicken=20
Spitting?</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D601160418-10042002>It=20
sounds like something a lion might do if the chicken tasted fowl.=20
;-)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002>-Shawn-</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1E099.1C0062D0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
Message-ID: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" wonders
>On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:34:43PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>> 
>> It could be worse.  If you want to hunt in Germany you 
>>have to wear the Keebler Elf outfit.
>
>???
>

When I was stationed in Germany, I wanted to hunt.  So I 
signed up for classes, paid a HUGE chunk of cash for classes, 
fees, etc.  Then I had to hire a guide. No option given 
there. The classes were extensive and mandatory (especially 
considering that the area I was going to hunt in is the size 
of a small park, and is neatly manicured).  At the end, I sat 
with my guide in a plush treestand.

It was mandatory that I wear the lederhosen.  I am glad no 
one has a picture of that.  That outfit is expensive.

And now the guide is instructing me on which deer I can 
shoot, and which are not permitted.

Have to tip the guide as well.  Most expensive deer I ever 
ate.  It's what happens when a culture is based entirely on a 
layered bureaucracy.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
Message-ID: <200204101816.DTU00025@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"John T. Kwon" says
<snip about hunting in Germany>

I could have gone to South Africa and hunted for two weeks, 
airfare included, for what I spent to hunt in Germany.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGMCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>; from ShawnSears@telocity.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:07:54PM -0400
References: <99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40@aol.com> <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGMCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20020410122225.B21755@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:07:54PM -0400, Shawn R Sears wrote:
> 
> Chicken Spitting?

There is (or was--it may have gone out of business) a chain called
Boston Chicken (later Boston Market) whose main draw was its
rotisserie chicken.  I prepared the chicken.

The way it works is that Sysco would deliver great plastic boxes of 16
chickens each.  There was a great plastic bag in the box which held
the chickens and the flavouring they were packed in.

I would go to the freezer and haul out 128 or 256 chickens (8 or 16
boxes) and wheel the pallet over to my workstation.  I'd then prepare
the garlic marinade: a gallon of apple cider vinegar and a package of
this garlic/sugar power mixture.  Then I would repeat the following
process over and over:

1) Open box
2) Slit open bag
3) Remove chicken
4) Slide hand into icy cold chicken and pull out any fat
5) Dunk chicken in marinade
6) Slide chicken onto spit and fix with spike
7) Repeat 3-6 thrice (four chickens to a spit)
8) Repeat 1-7 until no more boxes

It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over
me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar.

I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
For 93 million miles, there is nothing between the sun and my shadow
except me.  I'm always getting in the way of something...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
In-Reply-To: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:10:51PM -0400
References: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020410123043.C21755@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:10:51PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> It's what happens when a culture is based entirely on a layered
> bureaucracy.

LOL.  My favourite history prof in college told the story of trying to
name his son while he and his wife were living in Germany.  They
wanted to name him Calvert, after his wife's maiden name.  Apparently
one must take one's names from a great book of approved names--of
course Calvert wasn't in it.  So he asks them what he needs to do.
The clerk goes back to her superior and they discuss it for awhile,
then she returns and states that if he can get a letter from the
American consul stating that Calvert is an approved American name,
then he can name his son that.

So he went on down to the consul, they all had a good laugh, and the
letter informing the German registry that Calvert is approved for use
in America was sent.

OTOH, I daresay Germany has no-one name Moon Unit or Dweezil, so the
policy is not entirely incorrect.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Farewell Romance the Soldier spoke
By skill-of-sword we may not win
But scuffle 'midst the unclean smoke
Of arquebuse and culverin
Honor is lost and none may tell
Who paid good blows, Romance farewell.
                            --Kipling

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <200204101843.DTV03242@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert reveals chicken spitting
<snip>

I, and probably others, (Doug?) have done the burning of 
human waste thing.

Nothing like stirring burning human waste, sloshing the 
liquid around, trying to find a "clean" spot to grab the can, 
being permeated by the stench of diesel, smoke, and shit 
(pardon my French).

It's something that you were put on a duty roster for, so you 
didn't get it every day.  But it always came around.  When we 
started, I asked if we were going to be issued some good dope 
to smoke while we were burning the stuff.  After all, we had 
seen that in Platoon...

The powers that be were not amused.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020410191917.B3737@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 10, 2002 07:19:17 PM
Message-ID: <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is
> > that if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we
> > would prefer that neither of them drop.
> 
> Yes, that's one effect.  For example, light photons have sufficient
> energy to cause certain chemical changes in pigments in the eye;
> that's how we see.
> 
> If the chemical energies are a hundred times lower and Planck's
> constant is unchanged, a light photon doesn't just affect sensitive
> pigments, it rips electrons out of stable molecules and breaks
> chemical bonds.  That's what we normally call "ionising radiation".
> 
> We can't just use light that has a hundred times lower frequency,
> because it has a hundred times longer wavelength.  OK, I guess we can,
> but it involves changing the speed of light...

I get the feeling that you're trying to change constants rather than
looking at the problem as a closed system where all four fundamental
forces are modified in the same ratio (actually, I'm still hazy on
whether or not gravity should be included in this). To do so, I think
we really need to look at the most simple problems, involving only a
single atom or a pair of atoms. Otherwise, we may be dealing with a
system that is too complex to really analyze completely. I'd like to
return to the previous example, involving electron orbits. I'm going
to reiterate from my prevous post.

you write:
> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
> well.

Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
energy level of an electron in an atom?

I've heard that the atomic nucleus is held together by the interplay
between the strong and weak forces, the strong force keeping the
positively charged protons together while the weak force tries to
rip them apart. I suppose that since this idea of taming the quantum
foam should reduce both forces equally, the stability of the
nucleus would be uneffected (the effects of the strong & weak force
reductions should cancel out).

However, I'm not sure how to handle the problem of electrons, which
you mention above. But I'll try to tackle it anyway, so what follows
it totally off the cuff. I'm guessing that the electromagnetic force
keeps electrons attracted to the positively charged atomic nucleus
and repulsed by each other, hence accounting for their movements
(of course, this probably falls apart at some level, but bear with
me). Well, I'm just guessing here, but if their movements are determined
by the repulsive & attractive effects of the same force (electromagnetic),
then reducing that force should have no net effect, as reduction in
repulsion will be perfectly offset by the reduction in attraction.
In short, and I'm no physics major, so correct me if I'm wrong,
once again what I would expect is that these changes cancel out,
resulting in there being no need to change Planck's constant.

Am I totally wrong here? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 13:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 12:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>

At 08:03 PM 4/10/02 +0800, you wrote:

>So IMHO the ships would also be fitted with Bussard Rams to scoop up the
>hydrogen found in the space between arms. This would not be used for the
>HePLar thruster but to refuel the jump drive and power plant. (Though this
>makes the ship even bigger as it does have to carry enough maneuver fuel to
>get up to a velocity where the Ram Scoop functions.
>
>Any ideas?

A very interesting idea.

My first reaction to the problem was a squadron of ships, most of which are 
various kinds of rider configuration.  Including one configuration that 
carries a smaller ship, capable of jump-4 or higher and maneuver-1 and 
specializing in jumping with reusable modular fuel tanks and dropping them 
off, then going back to fetch more.  Eventually, they've dumped off a big 
enough fuel cache to support the squadron as it jumps on through.

Perhaps, only one ship one would jump through first.  A ship designed to be 
ready for trouble at the other end if trouble happens to be there.  Then it 
jumps back.  If the other end doesn't have a fuel source either, it will 
have to either carry enough fuel for two jumps or do a reduced jump so that 
it keeps enough fuel to jump back to the fuel cache.  All very tedious.  If 
necessary, the first fuel cache can be used as a jump off to establish a 
second fuel cache farther on.  Even more tedious, but doable.  That should 
get the squadron or at least one lead vessel of the squadron across a 
pretty big gap.

Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination 
star system.  Added to an astronomical database that must be built up far 
beyond what we presently have managed on Earth and from our lowly little TL 
7 or 8, undersized, spacecraft and only observing from the vantage of one 
solar system.

The exploring squadron probably will not have to do much guessing about 
fuel sources along the way, and will have their route well mapped.  The big 
surprises will be what come from close-in observations when they arrive in 
a system, and who/what life they meet along the way.

Any of the astronomy gearheads able to tell us anything about the average 
density and class of the stars in that region?

Are there rules that indicate how much space must be allotted for spare 
parts and repair equipment necessary to keep a ship provisioned for 
decades?  And just who the heck would pay for a trip that won't be heard 
from until after the financier is dead?  (Government, I guess.)  Who the 
heck would _go_ on the trip?  You need a military-style command structure 
to stay organized and on target during the trip, but can you feasibly get 
entire families of qualified crew to submit themselves to living out the 
remainder of their lives that way?  Or instead of families, will it go the 
opposite direction and be only people who've left all earthly attachments 
behind (lol) and are equipped with a plentiful supply of anagathics?  I 
don't recall anything that specifies the age limit for someone on a regular 
regimen of anagathics...Go out forty years and then turn around and come 
back?  My questions are spawning faster than I can type them out.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>

At 08:03 PM 4/10/02 +0800, you wrote:

>So IMHO the ships would also be fitted with Bussard Rams to scoop up the
>hydrogen found in the space between arms. This would not be used for the
>HePLar thruster but to refuel the jump drive and power plant. (Though this
>makes the ship even bigger as it does have to carry enough maneuver fuel to
>get up to a velocity where the Ram Scoop functions.
>
>Any ideas?

A very interesting idea.

My first reaction to the problem was a squadron of ships, most of which are 
various kinds of rider configuration.  Including one configuration that 
carries a smaller ship, capable of jump-4 or higher and maneuver-1 and 
specializing in jumping with reusable modular fuel tanks and dropping them 
off, then going back to fetch more.  Eventually, they've dumped off a big 
enough fuel cache to support the squadron as it jumps on through.

Perhaps, only one ship one would jump through first.  A ship designed to be 
ready for trouble at the other end if trouble happens to be there.  Then it 
jumps back.  If the other end doesn't have a fuel source either, it will 
have to either carry enough fuel for two jumps or do a reduced jump so that 
it keeps enough fuel to jump back to the fuel cache.  All very tedious.  If 
necessary, the first fuel cache can be used as a jump off to establish a 
second fuel cache farther on.  Even more tedious, but doable.  That should 
get the squadron or at least one lead vessel of the squadron across a 
pretty big gap.

Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination 
star system.  Added to an astronomical database that must be built up far 
beyond what we presently have managed on Earth and from our lowly little TL 
7 or 8, undersized, spacecraft and only observing from the vantage of one 
solar system.

The exploring squadron probably will not have to do much guessing about 
fuel sources along the way, and will have their route well mapped.  The big 
surprises will be what come from close-in observations when they arrive in 
a system, and who/what life they meet along the way.

Any of the astronomy gearheads able to tell us anything about the average 
density and class of the stars in that region?

Are there rules that indicate how much space must be allotted for spare 
parts and repair equipment necessary to keep a ship provisioned for 
decades?  And just who the heck would pay for a trip that won't be heard 
from until after the financier is dead?  (Government, I guess.)  Who the 
heck would _go_ on the trip?  You need a military-style command structure 
to stay organized and on target during the trip, but can you feasibly get 
entire families of qualified crew to submit themselves to living out the 
remainder of their lives that way?  Or instead of families, will it go the 
opposite direction and be only people who've left all earthly attachments 
behind (lol) and are equipped with a plentiful supply of anagathics?  I 
don't recall anything that specifies the age limit for someone on a regular 
regimen of anagathics...Go out forty years and then turn around and come 
back?  My questions are spawning faster than I can type them out.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Huxton)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>

Idle speculation from an idle speculator, and it must have been asked 
before...

We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any upper limit 
("that's no moon...")

I had a sudden vision of a jump-capable planet working its way around the 
galaxy sucking gas giants dry between jumps.

Any gearheads got a spreadsheet that can handle this?

Oh, no cheating of course, you have to do this using LBB Book 2 rules at TL13 
and bring the cost in at under 100MCr ;-)

- Richard Huxton



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:09:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:09:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F14rptKlUtfRZGHP4JZ00005b46@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public 
opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the 
region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf."

     "All of these could be applied to the 1st Interstellar War."


Mr. Berry,

     True, but I still have a hard time swallowing it all.
     We've got the constant drum beat in canon about the Vilani "way of war" 
being brutally pragmatic.  They use hostages, have no qualms about nukes, 
target civilians, etc., etc., anything tactic that is cost effective.
     The Ziru Sirka, or it's direct antecedents, were able to put the Vilani 
boot on the neck of quite a number of species and they've kept it there for 
millennia.  The fact that the Geonee, Suerrat, Syleans, et. al. are still 
being kept down at the same time the Terrans show up tells me that the 
Vilani could still get the job done.

     "The Vilani might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really 
capable of, or were under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder."

     After losing the first two Interstellar Wars and visiting the Sol 
system, the Vilani should have known what the Terrans were really capable 
of.  GT:RoF also mentions that the Vilani, when faced with the bewildering 
welter of Terran cultures and genotypes, thought they were facing an 
alliance of several minor human races.  That "threat" alone should have 
spurred some sort of response.
     It's the dichotomy that get's me wondering.  We've got ZS governors 
still keeping the boot on the neck of umpteen minor races, we've got the 
coreward governors arming and using Vargr mercs in political power games 
against each other, and, at the same time, we've got governor after governor 
after on the Rim behaving completely unlike the others throughout the ZS and 
losing piddling wars to a minor race nearly totally confined to a single 
system.

     "ISTR from losing endless games of Imperium to Craig that the Imperial 
governor was beholden to his superiors... asking for the necessary firepower 
was a big blow to his prestige."

     Don't confuse play balance with realpolitik.  As the Vilani player, I 
could spend the prestige points to build larger/more warships early on and 
end up occupying Terra.  The VP table would then paint me as the loser and 
it would be right up to a point.  The Vilani regional governor would "lose" 
but, with Terra occupied, the Ziru Sirka would have actually won.  The 
reverse holds true for the Terran player.  He "wins" because the Vilani 
governor lost too many prestige points, but whose home system is occupied by 
whom?

     "Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion sentients would do?"

     But they'd done it in the past, i.e. the Sky Raiders, and were 
currently threatening to do it to others, the many minor races being held 
down, so why didn't it happen to Sol?  The Ziru Sirka had the numbers, it 
had better technology, and it was chillingly ruthless.  How did it happen to 
lose?
     I'll take my slightly canon-bending answer to that from Cortez' 
conquest of the Aztecs; the Terrans had LOTS of "native" allies.  We all 
learned, wrongly, in school about how Cortez, with only a hundred men, some 
clumsy firelocks, and a few dozen horses, took down the Aztec empire.  Well, 
that makes for good propaganda, but in reality Cortez had tens of thousands 
of native allies, perhaps over 100K of them.
     Cortez visited the Valley of Mexico twice, the first time escaping by 
the skin of his teeth and the second time at the head of an invading army 
nearly 100K strong.  He and his allies built entire fleets to assault 
water-girted capital city of the Aztecs.  The seige went on for months 
before Montezuma finally surrendered.
     IMTU, the "real" story of the Interstellar Wars happens along those 
lines.  The Terrans are greeted at Banard's by a Vilani governor who sees 
them just another tool in his political power games.  The Terrans are 
allowed to expand, are used as deniable mercs in all sorts of Bureau 
bun-fights, and generally bide their time.  Once they feel they're strong 
enough AND they've contacted and recruited lots of those Vilani-oppressed 
minor races, then they strike.  The Terran Confederation wins over the Ziru 
Sirka thanks in large part to their allies; Terran money and Terran gumption 
stir the drink, but the allies provide the mass needed.
     Once the conquest is completed, the Terrans begin to downplay their 
allies contributions and eventually take the Vilani's place as top dog, just 
as the Spanish did with their own allies in Mexico.  Because winners write 
history, the story gets slowly twisted and diluted throughout the Rule of 
Man until it becomes recieved wisdom, an old wives' tale about the 
Interstellar Wars.  The Solomani can't acknowledge how things really 
happened, it would shoot their racist twaddle right out the airlock.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:10:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:10:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020410095004.A21459@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020410195114.49017.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:05:34AM -0400, Shawn R
> Sears wrote:
> > 
> > Commanders who have given the order to "fix
> bayonets" to
> > scared troops, often notice an increased level of
> confidence
> > and moral. 
> 
> This may be related to the visceral fear one feels
> when faced with a
> blade: when on the wielding end, it may possibly
> feel much more
> empowering than a simple rifle does.
> 
> I know in my own case that I feel somehow more
> prepared when carrying
> a sword than when carrying a rifle or pistol.  This
> may even be the
> real reason dress swords have survived as long as
> they have.
> 
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> 
  >>
  That's easily explained: Swords never run out of
ammo, and are a lot harder to break... ;-P~

         MACessna
  >>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:12:21 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F11APfrrF69u7tS1RkF00004676@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155047.01de3120@pop.wizard.net>

Sam D wrote:

>In the book Blackhawk Down, one of the Rangers unloads his M60 on a guy 
>and it takes a few bursts to put him down.  We ought to issue that Khat to 
>our troops!

Give credit to the guy, not the drug.  Nobody at TL 8 or lower makes a drug 
that can turn an average soldier into the Terminator.  I don't discount the 
drug making a difference, but like that.  For at least those last few 
seconds of his life, that poor guy was one of the bravest and toughest 
people in the world.  Drugged or not.

Or, it may just be that he was being spun around so much he hadn't fallen, 
and the machinegunner was too anxious to wait for him to fall and just kept 
firing.  Weird flukes like that kind of thing happen fairly often.

It's a really ugly business to be in.

--Laning

PS  Oh and thanks for the advice on SR-25 and AR-10.  Now if we can only 
get my wife to be able to sleep at night if there's a firearm in the 
house.  Not gonna happen.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D99A5C.382DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20409.224111.2G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155951.01dc24b0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn on a 65 gram instead of 65 grain bullet:
>I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.
>
>69,562 Joules of energy
>1,130 joules of free recoil
>
>25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)


Tod, what was the free recoil of that elephant rifle again?  For 
comparison.  I found your earlier calculations on the M1, M16, and gauss 
rifle, which were two orders of magnitude lower and then some compared to 
the above 65 gram bullet.

Hm, I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and plug in numbers for known 
weapons and science fiction weapons from time to time.  Then post on a Web 
site so all interested parties can reference it from time to time.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:15:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:15:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>

From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>

     "It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over 
me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar."


Mr. Uhl,

     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what lobsters 
eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!
     Underwater, where those disgusting little buggers live, oils acts as 
odors do for we land animals.  Thus, the bait in each trap must release LOTS 
of nice oils for our shell-bound critters to sense and trail back to the 
trap.  Also, the bait must be refreshed every other day or so.  (The traps 
need to be checked that frequently too, the lobsters tend to eat one 
another.)
     Preparing bait requires:

One 55 gallon drum
One heavy cleaver
One oar or paddle
One piece of wood you don't mind ruining
Lots of "trash" fish
One strong stomach

     Roughly "cuisinart" each fish by chopping it briskly and roughly with 
the cleaver.  Either leave the pieces hanging together by strips of skin 
and/or bone (the mark of a real pro) or let the chunks collect on your 
cutting board.  When the chunks pile too high, drp them in the drum and tamp 
down hard with the paddle.  Repeat until you run out of fish or ruj out of 
drum.
     The next bit is the most important.  Seal the drum up and then let it 
sit in the sun for a couple of weeks at a minimum.  Every once in a while, 
pop the top and give the contents a violent stirring.
     After the bait has "matured" enough, you can put it to use in the bait 
"purses" for your traps.  You either hump the drum aboard or a couple of 5 
gallon pails of the stuff when you go out to check the traps.  As each trap 
is hauled aboard, you have a freshly filled, plastic purse ready to re-bait 
the trap.  The lobsterman removes and measures the damn things while you 
fish out the used purse and put to fresh on it it's place.  Then the empty 
trap and fresh bait gets heaved overboard.
     It get pretty routine after a while and your nose shuts down.  I 
suspect it must be a little like working in a slaughter house.  You just 
don't notice certain things anymore.
     The first time I opened a bait barrel, I fed the fishes until I ran out 
of "chum".  Ma Whipsnade wouldn't allow me to wear my lobstering clothes 
anywhere near the house.  I had to change in the shed out back and run into 
the cellar to wash in a galvanized tub there.  You don't get paid in money 
either, instead a certain number of trpas are "yours" and you can keep or 
sell whatever is in them.  Not a bad job, I got a boat and car out of it, 
but I was happy to start in the screw machine shop once I was legal.  
Chlorinated oil is nothing compared to bait!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen



_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:19:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:19:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <20020410.133548.-8347.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hey Everybody,

Please feel free to utilize my two new characters IYTU.
If you do, please pass back any updated stats, thank you.

Barista Corrt [roll the R's] - Vilani Hybrid [pick any world]
UPP 768786
18 years young
Very attractive, 
shoulder length blond hair, green eyes
5' 5" 115 lbs
34B-24-34
soft spoken, but tough
New job as a barmaid at Starbucks in Startown.


Barst Cortor - BarbarianBrave
UPP A98342
30 years
Survival-0, Sword-1 [broadsword], Hand Combat-2
Brutish appearance, scared muscular body
long black hair, black eyes
7 foot tall 300 lb
50" chest, 34 - 34
gruff, hash demeanor
New job as a bouncer at Starbucks in Startown.
[due to the brawl at the haul across town]


Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20410.140930.5r1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> jimv wrote:
>> Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
>> an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
>> move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
>> suppression, they move toward each other much faster
>> than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
>> I wrong?
>
> If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
> on each ion, then it is true.
>
> If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
> to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
> factor of 10.

Which causes *other* problems, because that changes the ratio of the
electromagnetic forces to the nuclear forces in the atom. And changing
the strength of the nuclear forces affects the stability of the nucleus
in other ways. 

Also, there are other "forces" involved in chemical reactions that
depend on the strength of the charges, but not on the *square* of the
strength (ie the don't follow an inverse square law).

So changing the charge affects those also. And not in proportion to
each other.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:23:56 2002
Subject: [TML] testing, Ignore
Message-ID: <B8DA068C.393E0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:26:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:26:46 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155951.01dc24b0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8DA0857.393E8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 1:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn on a 65 gram instead of 65 grain bullet:
>> I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.
>> 
>> 69,562 Joules of energy
>> 1,130 joules of free recoil
>> 
>> 25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)
> 
> 
> Tod, what was the free recoil of that elephant rifle again?  For
> comparison.  I found your earlier calculations on the M1, M16, and gauss
> rifle, which were two orders of magnitude lower and then some compared to
> the above 65 gram bullet.
> 
> Hm, I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and plug in numbers for known
> weapons and science fiction weapons from time to time.  Then post on a Web
> site so all interested parties can reference it from time to time.

a 9 lbs rifle firing a 500 gn slug at 2100 fps has a free recoil energy of
85 Joules.  Just use the form at http://travellercentral.com/rules/ke.html.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:29:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:29:07 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
References: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4A451.4020608@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Have to tip the guide as well.  Most expensive deer I ever 
> ate.  It's what happens when a culture is based entirely on a 
> layered bureaucracy.

That's what happens when you've had no real wilderness for hundreds and 
hundreds of years...you might as well have gone 'hunting' in a corral.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:30:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:30:34 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B8D9F3BB.38CFC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:32:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (listmom)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:32:01 2002
Subject: [TML] test
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204101430010.1171-100000@rhylanor>

this is a test


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:33:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Nick Wright)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:33:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
Message-ID: <001101c1e0d7$3860c120$a8fb883e@fg>

The BBC have reported on what the nattily dressed US soldier will be wearing
on tomorrow's battlefield.  It is a bit worrying though that uniforms will
be "nearly invisible" (4th para).  Where's the Sarge going to sew his
stripes?

Check out

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1908000/1908729.stm

I remain, etc, etc.

Nick Wright


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] List Problems
Message-ID: <B8DA09B3.393F4%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Sorry about the delayed mail, all.  Seems I has some file locking issues
with the list server.  I initially assumed the problem was do to some
systems changes I made, so I did a roll-back only to fins the prblem was
unrelated.

Mail seems to be flowing now.  Please report problems to
listmom@travellercentral.com

Thanks for your patience.

Tod


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:38:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:38:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Counterterrorism
References: <B8DA068C.393E0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <019c01c1e0e0$04f78130$09d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Gentles,

In addition to creating the new TNE sourcebook, finishing up the truly
fabulous T20 rules, and making sure the cats get fed, I'm also doing some
work in counter-terrorism.

Sadly, I don't get to shoot suicide bombers or anything. What I'm doing is
helping promote an organisaton called NSI which is dedicatd to various
anti-terrorist activities.

To this end I need to place articles and generally promote interest in the
organisation.

Anyone whho feels that they may be able to help, or with something to offer,
please contact me offlist.

The technology to prevent a new Sept 11th exists now, yet many of the
measures taken by our governments are nothing but placebos. We could change
that.

Anyone?

Regards

MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020410191917.B3737@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020411083544.A5842@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> I get the feeling that you're trying to change constants rather than
> looking at the problem as a closed system where all four fundamental
> forces are modified in the same ratio (actually, I'm still hazy on
> whether or not gravity should be included in this).

Gravity is essentially irrelevant, barring any unknown effects of
quantum gravity.  Besides, you would have to *strengthen* gravity to
get the same relative effects.  So it shouldn't have the same ratio as
other forces anyway.

Apart from that, your goal is to have the behaviour of atoms (and more
complex systems) behave in the same way as before inertial
suppression, correct?  This requires more than just changing the
strength of forces.


> To do so, I think we really need to look at the most simple
> problems, involving only a single atom or a pair of atoms.

OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
just one simple example.

Hence inertial suppression requires more than just changing the
strength of forces.  If you want the atoms to behave the same way, you
need to alter fundamental constants as well.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:42:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:42:45 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155047.01de3120@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018477349.495.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> 
> Give credit to the guy, not the drug.  Nobody at TL 8 or lower makes a drug
>  that can turn an average soldier into the Terminator.  I don't discount
> the  drug making a difference, but like that.  For at least those last few 
> seconds of his life, that poor guy was one of the bravest and toughest 
> people in the world.  Drugged or not.

Actually, no, the drug could easily be responsible.  Much of the reason for
people falling down when shot is that they know they ought to, and drugs can
dull the pain response and/or make you too stupid to realize you've been shot.

The fact that he stood there are got shot several times by an M60 may suggest
why the use of combat drugs is discouraged.  People who are heavily drugged are
not usually known for their good tactics.
> 
> Or, it may just be that he was being spun around so much he hadn't fallen, 
> and the machinegunner was too anxious to wait for him to fall and just kept
>  firing.  Weird flukes like that kind of thing happen fairly often.
> 
> It's a really ugly business to be in.
> 
> --Laning
> 
> PS  Oh and thanks for the advice on SR-25 and AR-10.  Now if we can only 
> get my wife to be able to sleep at night if there's a firearm in the 
> house.  Not gonna happen.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:44:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:44:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
References: <20020410195114.49017.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <014a01c1e0de$3d265b50$09d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>   >>
>   That's easily explained: Swords never run out of
> ammo, and are a lot harder to break... ;-P~
> 

A broken sword is still a weapon to be respected. This I know....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:46:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:46:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
 <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410182447.0390c460@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:37 PM 4/10/2002, laning wrote:
>Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
>detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination

Classic Traveller allowed a starship to determine if gas giants were 
present in another star system from a 1 parsec range.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:49:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:49:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGNCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Craig Berry <cberry@cine.net>
>
>You recall correctly, and in my mind this is sufficient to explain how the
>Terrans managed their initial victories while outnumbered and outgunned
>thousands to one (taking into account the full Vilani might).  I get the
>strong sense that the Ziru Sirka practiced "shoot the messenger"-style
>management a great deal; the status quo and normal operations were

This is my opinion, as well.  China in the 1700s-1800s operated in much the
same way.

>I am very strongly of the opinion that the local Vilani governor knew all
>about the Terrans; probably several of them did, over the century or two
>immediately preceding official contact.  Remember, the ZS was quite used
>to encountering minor human races as it expanded, and I'm sure there were
>exhaustively documented procedures and case studies on how to proceed with
>their integration into the ZS.  The Terrans simply didn't operate
>according to the 'rules', and the governor was terrified to report this
>fully to his superiors.  The rest is (future) history.

I think the Vegans are what we in contemporary times call the Grays.  They
have been surreptitiously visiting Earth for a while to help us develop into
a human force that can get rid of the Vilani, with whom the Vegans have
never really gotten along.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Lost Causes
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17951@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

The Dougster:
In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat 
in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?

Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public 
opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the 
region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.

Mikey:
The US were never really going to win that one. As Uncle Ho is fondly
remembered saying 'I am willing to lose 10 men for each one of yours'. Hell,
I think the toll in Vietnam for the conflict was about a million on the
Communist side. So given loses of 50k for the US that's like 20 to 1. 

Besides it's a bit hard to 'save' a country that won't save itself. 

My 0.02 of course, so don't roast me slowly over a verbal BBQ.

I'm studying Vietnam now at uni. I particularly enjoyed the battle of Ap Bac
(?), which got turned into a major propaganda piece about the South wiping
the floor with Communist insurgents. When the smoke cleared they found just
3 bodies....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:56:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:56:39 2002
Subject: [TML] test
References: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204101430010.1171-100000@rhylanor>
Message-ID: <3CB4BE9A.1155267C@premier.net>


listmom wrote:
> 
> this is a test

Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled in terror, and you
would not have been informed.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:59:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:59:21 2002
Subject: [TML] test 5, ignore
Message-ID: <B8DA0282.393D4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:00:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:00:52 2002
Subject: [TML] another test
Message-ID: <B8DA059C.393DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:03:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:03:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20410.144847.1G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> jimv wrote:
>> > in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is
>> > that if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we
>> > would prefer that neither of them drop.
>> 
>> Yes, that's one effect.  For example, light photons have sufficient
>> energy to cause certain chemical changes in pigments in the eye;
>> that's how we see.
>> 
>> If the chemical energies are a hundred times lower and Planck's
>> constant is unchanged, a light photon doesn't just affect sensitive
>> pigments, it rips electrons out of stable molecules and breaks
>> chemical bonds.  That's what we normally call "ionising radiation".
>> 
>> We can't just use light that has a hundred times lower frequency,
>> because it has a hundred times longer wavelength.  OK, I guess we can,
>> but it involves changing the speed of light...
>
> I get the feeling that you're trying to change constants rather than
> looking at the problem as a closed system where all four fundamental
> forces are modified in the same ratio (actually, I'm still hazy on
> whether or not gravity should be included in this). To do so, I think
> we really need to look at the most simple problems, involving only a
> single atom or a pair of atoms. Otherwise, we may be dealing with a
> system that is too complex to really analyze completely. I'd like to
> return to the previous example, involving electron orbits. I'm going
> to reiterate from my prevous post.

The problem is, different things depend on *different* ratios. 

Some depend on things like the charge to mass ratio of particles.
Others depend on things like the ratios of the *squares* of of things.
And some are things like square roots. Or weirder ratios. 

You *can't* make them all match. 
 
> you write:
>> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
>> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
>> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
>> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
>> well.
>
> Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
> energy level of an electron in an atom?

Momentum, charge, Planck's constant, maybe a few other things.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:05:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:05:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20410.141449.7E5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> jimv wrote:
>> > Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
>> > an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
>> > move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
>> > suppression, they move toward each other much faster
>> > than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
>> > I wrong?
>> 
>> If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
>> on each ion, then it is true.
>> 
>> If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
>> to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
>> factor of 10.
>
> Under the premise of the inertial suppression idea, inertia
> is defined as the electromagnetic drag caused by mass accellerating
> through the zero point field (essentially due to subatomic interactions
> with virtual photons). So, if this were the case, it might hold true
> that the EM force would be reduced by inertial suppression, at least if
> one assumes that EM forces are transferred via virtual photons, sort of
> like the way waves on the ocean are transferred through the water
> molecules making up the waves (you physicists on the list can probably
> laugh at this statement... I'm really showing my ignorance here).

That's a hypothesis that doesn't have a lot of backing. Nor are matters
that simple.

> Anyway,
> off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to make this
> work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the square-root of the
> inertial suppression factor. If we make that handwave, which is
> certainly a god-being-nice type to rule to make, then I'd imagine
> that we've got gravity & EM both covered. However, if anyone can
> provide a counterexample, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Alas, you've just changed to speed of light by doing this. 

Then there are thins like the fine structure constant:

u*c*e^2/2h

where
u = permeability of a vacuum
c = speed of light in a vacuum
e = charge of the electron
h = Plank's constant

Change the value of *that* and all sorts of stuff goes to hell.

Which means your changes have to be such that its value remains
unchanged. By the time you are done dinking around with that, things
have gotten *way* too complicated.

> Also, there's still the weak and strong forces to think about. Since
> weak is purportedly linked to EM, one would expect some sort of similar
> square-root drop off. As for the strong force, I have no idea. -Jim

The weak force and the electromagnetic force are different aspects of
the electro-weak force just as electric and magnetic field effects are
different aspects of the electromagnetic force (see Maxwells
equations).

The strong force and gravity (and the color force that quarks exert on
each other) may or may not be realated to the electr-weak forces in
various ways.

We can't achieve the energies required to check out the strong and
color forces, and gravity is so damned *weak* it's hard to experiment
with.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:07:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:07:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20410.143404.7i6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> You should likewise reduce the strength of the strong and weak forces.
>
> Okay... so I guess we need to suppose that all these forces get dropped
> by the same factor.

Alas, some effects that are important to trivial things like *life*
depend on various odd *powers* (square, square rooe 3/2 power, etc) of
the strength of these forces.

>> Now, just Planck's constant to deal with :)
>
> Okay... I'm totally clueless, but:
> E=hv, where h = planck's constant and v = frequency
> (note: i have no idea what i'm taking about)
> in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is that
> if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we would prefer
> that neither of them drop.

Another form has Planck's constant equalling the product of the
uncertainty in the positon and the uncertainty in the momentum of a
particle.

Planck's constant is behind *all* quantum effects. and it basicly says
how "granular" the universe is. 

Changing it by *tiny* amounts would have *major* effects on the way the
universe works.

>> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
>> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
>> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
>> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
>> well.
>
> Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
> energy level of an electron in an atom?

> I've heard that the atomic nucleus is held together by the interplay
> between the strong and weak forces, the strong force keeping the
> positively charged protons together while the weak force tries to
> rip them apart.

No. The electromagnetic repulsion of all those protons in the nucleus
tries to rip it apart. The weak force does stuff like hold neutrons
together (a neutron is effectively a "bound state" odf a proton, an
electron and an anti-neutrino). 

> I suppose that since this idea of taming the quantum
> foam should reduce both forces equally, the stability of the
> nucleus would be uneffected (the effects of the strong & weak force
> reductions should cancel out).

If only it was that simple. Among other things, the strong and weak
forces *don't* oney the inverse square law *and* they have a maximum
range. This is because they use exchange particles that have mass, as
opposed to the massless exchange particles (photons and gravitons) used
by the electromagnetic and gravitational forces. 

Oh shit....

There's another way to read that equation you gave up above. 

E = h*v

E = uncertainty in energy of a system
v = time interval
h = Planck's constant.

That's *how* exchange particles work. The energy of the virtual
particle is higher the shorter the time it has to exist (or vice
versa). Changing Planck's constant messes with that too. 

> However, I'm not sure how to handle the problem of electrons, which
> you mention above. But I'll try to tackle it anyway, so what follows
> it totally off the cuff. I'm guessing that the electromagnetic force
> keeps electrons attracted to the positively charged atomic nucleus
> and repulsed by each other, hence accounting for their movements
> (of course, this probably falls apart at some level, but bear with
> me). Well, I'm just guessing here, but if their movements are determined
> by the repulsive & attractive effects of the same force (electromagnetic),
> then reducing that force should have no net effect, as reduction in
> repulsion will be perfectly offset by the reduction in attraction.
> In short, and I'm no physics major, so correct me if I'm wrong,
> once again what I would expect is that these changes cancel out,
> resulting in there being no need to change Planck's constant.

Afraid not. 

For one thing, electrons are just barely what we normally think of as
particles. They aren't little billiard balls. They are more in the
nature of fuzzyt little "clouds". The electron is most likely *here*,
but could be clear over *there*. More like a ball of fog than anything
we are familiar wuith from everyday life.

I'd need a lot of time with books (and more recent exposure to quantum
mechanics) to even begn to figure out what would happen at the atomic
and subatomic levels.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Worst Job in the world
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17953@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Robert A. Uhl
It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over
me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar.

I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

Mikey:
Here in government service we like to bitch and moan about our lot in life.
I just forwarded this on to my co-workers to remind us all we don't have it
so bad.

Thanks man. 

PS I once got fired from cotton chipping, one of the more menial jobs in
life and one where ex convicts can find gainful employment. I was forced to
hitch into town (30 klicks) and was picked up by an insane Kiwi shearer (he
looked like John English for you Oz types), whose dayglo orange combi was
circa 60's and decorated in peace stickers. He proceeded to laugh manically
and go for three animals with his vehicle that made the mistake in trying to
cross the road. 

I got dropped off early. 

The whole trip, which involved catching a lift with a friend and staying in
the worst trailer park (aka cravan park) in western civilisation, ended up
costing $80.

I was not meant for menial work. 

Ob Trav: Travellers are not meant for menial work either. That's why
invariably they end up doing something illegal. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F221lf8nFJ3VTPlu4kA0000f71e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB575BB.18754.8358A9@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 15:20, Sam D wrote:

> Tod Glen wrote:>Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 
> over 7.62x51mm
> >ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
> >is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
> >any particular caliber.
> 
> It is a tuff call.  It appears that the 5.56mm does actually make bigger 
> wounds, as long as there is sufficient tissue to penetrate, as long as the 
> velocity is above 2700 fps.  With an M16 that is like 200- yards; with the 
> M4 it is only 100-140 yards.  After that range, you are better off with the 
> bigger round.  And the 7.62x51 certainly penetrates through cover better at 
> all ranges.  But however you weigh those tradeoffs, there is no doubt that 
> you are going to have to be carrying around an extra 5-10 pounds of gear 
> with the bigger rifle.

Excuse me? How much ammo are you thinking of? For dangerous game 
hunting (the original question) 20 rounds is more than enough, and 
there's no real need for a 10 pound battle rifle. A 7.5 pound light 
sporter will do fine (and that's what my father's PH Magestic from the 
early 60's weighed with scope, etc.), and that's less weight than an 
M16A2.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:40:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:40:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D99957.382D9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 7:25, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/9/02 11:36 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
> 
> > And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting
> > results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting
> > dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or
> > .308?  Or something else?
> 
> You forgot to add:  "Using ball ammunition only".
> 
> We are speaking of military weapons here, so let's get the ammo right.
> There is no question that if ammunition selection is not restricted,
> 7.62x51mm is more lethal.
> 
> Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 over 7.62x51mm
> ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
> is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
> any particular caliber.

I think that this depends a lot on the exact game. If it's leopards, 
small lions or people the 5.56 could well be better, but on thick-
skinned game (not that there's a huge amount in that size range), like 
wild boar the 7.62x51 even with ball would be a better choice IMO, 
because it has better penetration. All the wounding potential in the 
world won't help you if the bullet stops on the outside of a boar's 
shoulderblade.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 4:38 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

>> You forgot to add:  "Using ball ammunition only".
>> 
>> We are speaking of military weapons here, so let's get the ammo right.
>> There is no question that if ammunition selection is not restricted,
>> 7.62x51mm is more lethal.
>> 
>> Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 over 7.62x51mm
>> ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
>> is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
>> any particular caliber.
> 
> I think that this depends a lot on the exact game. If it's leopards,
> small lions or people the 5.56 could well be better, but on thick-
> skinned game (not that there's a huge amount in that size range), like
> wild boar the 7.62x51 even with ball would be a better choice IMO,
> because it has better penetration. All the wounding potential in the
> world won't help you if the bullet stops on the outside of a boar's
> shoulderblade.

I think the hint was 180-200 lbs dangerous game (meaning people)

My first choice for all around game hunting of large animals (over 150 lbs)
and using non-expanding bullets would probably be my .458 Witworth.  It is
reasonably accurate to about 200 yards with express sites ( a ghost ring
would be preferable, but not 'right').  I can load anywhere from  55 - 72
grains of 4895 and go with bullets from 300-500+ grains.  My 'plinking' load
is a 405 gn hard cast bullet in front of 62 gns of 4895.  Plenty of bang for
just about anything.  I suspect the 500 gn monolithic solids would work well
on most game too, as well as the occasional car.

Note that this is strictly a short range load.  No 600 meter head shots.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>

Starship Insurance - Theft and Casualty - Claims

Having dutifully obtained your Theft and Casualty insurance, and having paid
your premiums on time and in full every month, you find yourself set upon by
pirates just short of jump point.  You are careful to respond to them in a
way that will not void your policy (we'll get to that later) and they wind
up taking your ship and leaving you adrift in an escape pod.

It's time to file your theft claim, whereupon your insurer will promptly pay
you. (Hysterical laughter slowly subsides.)

Basics of filing a claim:  The claim must be filed in a timely manner.  The
insured must take steps to mitigate damages.

Timely filing of a claim simply means to report your loss to your agent or a
claims representative a soon as possible.

Mitigation of damages means a reasonable exercise of common sense and effort
to ensure that your loss doesn't get worse, and that (if possible) it will
get better.  In the event of theft, reporting the theft to law enforcement
and other authorities would be a part of mitigation.  Damage should be dealt
with immediately to prevent further damge.  If one of the power regulators
is spiking in a way that endangers the jump-drive, a smart policy-holder
will reroute power around the faulty regulator, or delay jump until a
replacement can be had.  If the policy-holder ignores the power regulator
problem, attempts jump without dealing with it, and slags his J-drive, the
insurance company will likely decide to cover the regulator but not the
J-drive.  Why?  The policy-holder took no steps to mitigate damages.

Failure to file the claim in a timely manner, as well failure to mitigate,
can both be flags for insurance fraud.  Other fraud flags could be (but
certainly wouldn't be limited to):  recent purchase of policy, recent
increase in coverage or additions of riders, key crewmembers who can't be
located, vessels recent past can't be accounted for, etc.

When a claim is filed, the insurance company assigns an adjustor.  The
adjustor's job is to "adjust" the amount paid to the policyholder based upon
the covarage of the policy and the circumstances surrounding the claim.  If
at any step in the process the adjustor can find a reason to deny the claim,
the insurance company wins, the policy-holder loses, and the adjuster gets
an "attabeing" from the company.

One of the first steps the adjustor will take is to gather all relevant
documents they can.  First, because it is readily available, would be a copy
of the policy and all riders as well as the policy-holder's premium payment
history.  If the policy-holder (hereafter p-h) missed a payment, and
coverage was not in effect at the time of loss: claim denied.

Next the adjustor would look at insurance loss report(s) filed by the p-h
(not just for this claim but for any past claims of the p-h -- the adjustor
has to look for those fraud flags.)  Adjustor will further review police and
system defense authority reports, maintenance and repair records, ship's
log, ship's officer's logs, statements taken from the ship's officers and
crew, police and defense officials, and any witnesses to the loss.

Pursuant to all this, the adjustor will use the services of one or more
field investigators, who may be employees of the insurance company, or may
be independent investigators working on a contract basis.  The investigator
will be collecting documents, interviewing and taking statements from
sophonts, examining and documenting damage to the vessel, examing and
documenting the scene of loss, and generally doing legwork for the adjustor.
(Remember, the adjustor handles more than one claim at a time.)

Processing claims where the loss takes place outside a system where an
adjustor is present will be a drawn out process.  A claims decision
involving a loss of the magnitude of a starship would probably take the
better part of a year to process, even with instantaneous communication.

Sometimes the insurance company will actually pay a claim.  If the ship was
damaged, p-h will be paid for repair of damage or replacement of systems
(minus deductible.) Note that such repair and replacement will have already
long since been done in most cases.  The average owner-operator must keep
travelling in order to remain economically viable.

If the ship suffered damage that would cost more to repai than the ship is
worth the ship will be declared a total loss. Same thing if the ship was
stolen.  Note that if the insurer pays out on a total loss, the ship (or
what's left of it) becomes the property of the insurance company.  If the
ship is recovered from the thieves or found in an interstellar chop shop,
the insurance company will be the entity entitled to have the vessel.
(Presumably salvage law would kick in after some period prescribed by
black-letter law, at which point the ship would belong to whoever recovered
it.)

More later.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Near Star List - it's growing
Message-ID: <200204110010.DUF04546@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I listen to Stardate on NPR every evening, and today they 
were talking about the stars within 4 parsecs (see the map at 
their website stardate.org).  Apparently, there are more 
stars than previously known within a "short" distance of the 
Sun.

One example is a search for nearby stars -- some of our 
closest neighbors in all the universe. 

The project is headed by Todd Henry of Georgia State 
University. Team members are searching the heavens with 
fairly small telescopes in Chile. They're aiming mainly at 
faint, cool stars known as red dwarfs. Many of our closest 
neighbors are red dwarfs. But they're so faint that not a 
single one is visible to the unaided eye. 

The astronomers are watching the stars for many months to see 
which ones move against the background of other stars -- a 
motion that reveals which stars are close by. It's like 
holding up your finger and looking at it first with one eye, 
then the other; the finger appears to move back and forth 
against the background. 

By measuring this motion, the astronomers have discovered 13 
new stars within 33 light-years of Earth. The closest of the 
bunch is just 12 light-years away, making it the 20th closest 
known star system. 

________________
When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 16:51, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I think the hint was 180-200 lbs dangerous game (meaning people)

I assumed that we were looking at choices for other dangerous game to 
see if it illuminated the dissucssion of what should be used a people 
(a very thin-skinned type of dangerous game).
 
> My first choice for all around game hunting of large animals (over
> 150 lbs) and using non-expanding bullets would probably be my .458
> Witworth.  It is reasonably accurate to about 200 yards with express
> sites ( a ghost ring would be preferable, but not 'right').  I can
> load anywhere from  55 - 72 grains of 4895 and go with bullets from
> 300-500+ grains.  My 'plinking' load is a 405 gn hard cast bullet in
> front of 62 gns of 4895.  Plenty of bang for just about anything.  I
> suspect the 500 gn monolithic solids would work well on most game
> too, as well as the occasional car. 

My first choice would probably be a .375 H&H. Much though I admire 
Weatherbys they cost too much and are generally over-powered if you're 
using solids - they'd tend to horribly over-penetrate anything but the 
heaviest game. With expansive bullets I'd drop to a .338 Winchester or 
.340 Weatherby unless in Africa, in which case the .375's would be the 
way to go, IMO. .416s and .458/.460s are good vs buffs, elephants, etc. 
but aren't long-range rounds, so you'd need a second rifle for those 
300-500 yard shots on eland, etc.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F195GoE1k8LN6FWe7Xl0000b978@hotmail.com>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

     "This is my opinion, as well.  China in the 1700s-1800s operated in 
much the same way."


Mr. Goffin,

     I don't like to stretch the Imperial China-Ziru Sirka analogy too far.  
1700 China was already behind in the technology race, despite some very 
notable and very early firsts; compasses, stern post rudders, gunpowder, 
paper, printing, etc.  They just never put it all together for a variety of 
reasons.  The Ming dynasty actually had to beg the Jesuits for cannon 
founders in the mid-1600s while they were tangling with the Manchus.  Yuo, 
West-to-East tehnology transfers were happening that early.
     The Ziru Sirka, while stagnant, is ahead of the Terrans in the tech 
race.  Sure the Terrans can catch up, if they're given the time.  I just 
can't quite understand why they were given the time.
     The Imperial China the "Southern Barbarians" began contacting in the 
1500's was in one of it's disintergration phases.  The Ming were on the way 
out, the Manchus were trying to get in, pirates and warlords abounded.  The 
periphary was unravelling, Taiwan was a pirate kingdom that the Chinese paid 
the Dutch to tackle for them, Korea either lost to the Japanese or 
independent, Tibet gone, the far west lost to various horse peoples.  The 
Ming were straining every nerve just to keep the lid on, and they failed.  
After them, the Manchu were nothing more than a foreign dynasty simply 
trying to remain in power.  They restored nothing of China's former power or 
borders, even losing more territory as their dynasty went on.
     Does any of that sound like the Ziru Sirka to you?
     When they met the Terrans, the Vilani were keeping a ZS boot on the 
necks of umpteen minor races, races and home worlds that the Vilani were 
able to keep quiet even as the Terrans racked up victory after victory.  
There is no mention of these plethora of minor races rising in revolt, all 
we hear about is their "welcoming their Terran liberators."  How were the 
Vilani able to keep all those minor races down, how were they able to play 
power politics with Vargr merc pawns, how were they able to still do all of 
that, and STILL lose to a single system polity?

     "I think the Vegans are what we in contemporary times call the Grays.  
They have been surreptitiously visiting Earth for a while to help us develop 
into a human force that can get rid of the Vilani, with whom the Vegans have 
never really gotten along."

     That's part of my take on the whole problem.  The Terran Confederation 
victory over the Ziru Sirka is more along the lines of Cortez versus the 
Aztecs; i.e lots of native allies, and most decidely not a case of "Terra 
Uber Alles."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:38:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:38:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
<snip consideration of various calibers>

I'm trying to make up my mind between the .375 and the .338.  
Since I'm in N. America, it may be the .338. 

The situations that Traveller characters find themselves in 
are rarely more than a few opponents, and most are armed 
(depending on the GM, of course) with pistols and short range 
weapons.  In one past campaign, I did rather well with a 
single-shot falling block rifle in .375 H&H.  I was playing a 
PH, and this was my "walking about" rifle.  I was infamous 
for killing three other player characters by shooting down 
their custom air raft (first shot hit the driver through the 
front, the second shot disabled the powerplant and the other 
two plummeted to their deaths).

If you also consider that Traveller gun combat is at about 
the same range as a Cape Buffalo encounter, and you're 
probably going to live for about as many shots (two, maybe 
three), then I think that whatever makes a good Cape Buffalo 
weapon might make a good Traveller combat weapon.

Let's see.  We'll make it .416 Remington, since we can still 
get Speer tungsten core solids. 

The rifle should be a 4-shot controlled-feed pre-64 
Winchester action (with fixed ejector).  Barrel length should 
be 22 inches, and we'll go with a muzzle brake.  The stock 
should be optimized for firing on your hind legs, and we'll 
put a Trijicon Reflex sight on top, with express sights just 
in case that gets broken.

A PH should be able to get two or three quick aimed shots off 
with something like this.  I haven't seen many Traveller-
style combats last more than a few combat rounds. And you'll 
only have to hit another human *once* with something like 
this.  Tod might make it a .458, though.

Get yourself a pouch that holds 20 rounds, maybe keep 40 
rounds in your pack.  More than enough for most Traveller 
adventures.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDHDKAA.tml@downport.com>

Chumming is for guys not strong enough to be sternman :p

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade

>     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what
lobsters
>eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!

And just think, filters (clams, oysters, etc.) eat what settles on the
bottom after it went through the lobster or crab. Shrimp eat floaties. But
I'd still eat a lobster before I'd chow down on their landlubber cousins,
the spiders :x



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 19:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 10 18:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
In-Reply-To: <001101c1e0d7$3860c120$a8fb883e@fg>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410180651.009f12d0@mindspring.com>

At 10:32 PM 4/10/02 +0100, you wrote:
>The BBC have reported on what the nattily dressed US soldier will be wearing
>on tomorrow's battlefield.  It is a bit worrying though that uniforms will
>be "nearly invisible" (4th para).  Where's the Sarge going to sew his
>stripes?

Considering the stripes worn on the BDU are barely visible now, I don't 
think it is that big of a deal.

I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet 
cover.  In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 19:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 18:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410182447.0390c460@mail.qrc.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>
 <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
 <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020410205024.00a6ead0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 06:25 PM 4/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>At 03:37 PM 4/10/2002, laning wrote:
>>Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
>>detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination
>
>Classic Traveller allowed a starship to determine if gas giants were 
>present in another star system from a 1 parsec range.

I would suggest looking at Adventure 4(?) Leviathan and AM4: Zhodani for 
information on explorations.  Another good website would be 
http://www.securityleak.net/slm/index.html and check out Security Leak #5 
for a detailed look at the Zhodani Core Expeditions.

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
References: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <fos9busmdg2u2fv6oem9hlloq0u375f62e@4ax.com>

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 20:12:13 +0000, "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

>From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
>
>     "It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all =
over=20
>me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
>clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
>from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
>awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar."
>
>Mr. Uhl,
>
>     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what =
lobsters=20
>eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!

We seem to be in the midst of "onedownsmanship" here, with each
account somehow managing to add to the general disgusting flavor of
the thread.

Unless all and sundry truly wish to see an avalanche of reports of
keyboard kills due to the ever rising gorge of the list readers, I
sincerely hope that our talented TML writers bend their very effective
and evocative writing skills to subjects less nauseating.

I do, however, appreciate those descriptions we've seen thus far.  I
pity of character (either literary or RPG) who earns the need to fill
similar roles.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
Message-ID: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).  
But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You 
know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or 
perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.

Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I 
need a bit of camp now and then.
________________
When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:38:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:38:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDHDKAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4F721.DEF69043@sympatico.ca>

Swordy wrote:

> Chumming is for guys not strong enough to be sternman :p
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
>
> >     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what
> lobsters
> >eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!

The job I truly hated, regularly cleaning backed up greased traps in a Burger
King.

A friend job that I fear to visualize:

Giving enemas to elephants, with a 27 pound suppository in my right hand (
gloved to the neck) and a hose in my left hand.  A broom and a shovel for the
resultant mess, nearby.

Although, I would take that over being the individual at a dog / cat food
company who does the taste testing to ensure the labels are correct.

OR

The number one job I do not want to know about or visualize:

The person at a thermometer company who personally tests every rectal
thermometer to meet the print on the packages that reads: "Every one of our
product personally tested to ensure quality."

Michael



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cory Davis)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>

Hi all

just a quick comment, I have been reading M16 vs everything else topic with 
interest and big game hunting rifles just came up, and I realised in all 
the descriptions of peoples campaigns, its all gauss rifles and FGMPs

I just like to say in our games (GT) the weapon of choice were always Gauss 
- LAG (basically, a LEMG-20 with a shorter barrel, I made it up 6 months 
before Ground Forces came out) as with a wide range of ammo it can do all 
sorts of things

we have used fletchettes for unarmoured targets, the APFSDSHD will 
penetrate about 300DR and once we used baton rounds when we had a job as 
repo men (they didn't mark the ship up too much). the best thing about them 
was after a firefight they don't leave many holes, in fact even if fighting 
opponents in battledress on board a ship, afterwards the ship is usually 
still useable, I say usually once we accidently broke the powerplant

I've always thought that due to the high level of personal armour in 
traveller, at high TLs weapons would be designed for penetration rather 
than ROF or explosive fragmentation

oh well back to the discussion of the pros and cons of M16s and big game rifles

(our other game is a pulp horror game and the elephant gun is a staple)

cheers

Cory


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:09:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:09:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
In-Reply-To: <200203310432.DAH01551@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4C5A5.15107.6D8006@localhost>

Hi John,

A little late (as usual, I'm many days behind in reading the 
TML), but I'd like to see a copy of this as well (or let me know
if you've posted it somewhere and I'll get it there).

thanks!

Rob D.

On 30 Mar 2002 at 23:32, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Just finished going through what will be a rather long 
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units 
> in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may 
> differ.
> 
> But..  I need more input.  I've just moved a current day 
> document a fair number of years into the future (out to TL10, 
> so far), and I would like to take it a bit further, say TL12.
> 
> I am interested in anyone's input concerning what might be 
> standard operating procedure (instructions to individual 
> soldiers, teams, and platoons).  Some of the detail I have is 
> down to the items to carry.
> 
> I am especially interested in what might be SOP in regards to 
> weapons, employment of specific weapons (such as, "always use 
> the plasma gun to break contact").
> 
> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing 
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages 
> so far.
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
> 

--
Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com
'Calvin, we will not have an anatomically correct snowman!'




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:10:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:10:48 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Sci Fi Books that are Ob Trav
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1791D@r1clex01.cbr.defe
 nce.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410230528.01ae0498@192.168.0.1>

At 01:59 PM 4/8/2002 +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
>I know I am a tad late in this thread but it occurred to be the other day
>that a very Ob Trav type series of books were the Amtrak Wars by Patrick
>Tilley. Hi Tech underground civilisation fighting mad max esq mutated
>barbarians. The descriptions of the underground settlements seem very trav,
>monorails, life support levels, you name it.
>
>I'm re-reading them now. I liked them as a teenager and, ten years later,
>they're still pretty good.
>
>In fact it would make a great GURPS sourcebook. Doug Berry come on down.

For more examples of Traveller, and Traveller like fiction, take a look at:
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/travfic.html>


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:13:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:13:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA> <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <20020411131133.A6552@freeman.little-possums.net>

Antony Farrell wrote:
> Contrary to popular opinion there are stars in the gaps between the
> arms, the spirals themselves being defined by bright stars. But as
> to how many stars and whether fuel sources could be found there?

There should be quite a few red and brown dwarfs in there, just fewer
bright stars.  The actual stellar density isn't a lot lower, as far as
I've heard.  On top of that, there's bound to be a whole bunch of
sub-planetary objects that should make excellent fuel sources.


> Assuming the ships were built to TL14 or 15 standard this means jump
> 5 or 6 maximum, and it is likely that in the "gaps" fuel sources may
> be further apart than this.

I doubt it.  Red dwarf stars aren't expected to be much less numerous
than in the arms, which means about 2 parsecs should get you from one
to the next.  They would have to be 30 times sparser to have a
moderate chance of reaching a dead-end, even if the ships only carry
one jump worth of fuel.  More likely they can carry enough for two
5-parsec jumps (or five 3-parsec ones) by carrying methane, ammonia,
and/or water instead of pure liquid hydrogen.  They can refine it
between jumps if they reach an area without hydrogen.  If the ships
can reduce volume by collapsing empty tanks, they can get even
further on a full load of fuel.

With good TL 12 sensors (e.g. dedicated sensor platforms which extend
after jump), they should be able to spot gas giants from tens of
parsecs away without any trouble.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <200204101359.DTL04671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204101359.DTL04671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020411132024.B6552@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> This backup power generation is probably nuclear fission, which
> allows the ship to potentially go without hydrogen (albeit without
> jumping anywhere) for some time.

I doubt it.  At Traveller tech levels, nuclear fusion is far more
efficient.  It is also far easier to collect fuel :)


> You may also remember Annic Nova.

I remember the rather ... vigorous ... discussion over it :/


> So let's consider a ship with a nuclear fission base 
> powerplant (to keep everyone nice and warm, and provide a 
> little extra power to charge jump accumulators a la Annic 
> Nova).

If you do that, you've just invented a starship that doesn't need jump
fuel at all, with all the strategic implications that follow.


> There might even be additional closed-cycle hydrogen/oxygen 
> fuel cells.

Why?  The chemical energy stored in 100 tons of fuel cells is about
that found in 1 kilogram of fusion fuel.  You're better off ditching
the fuel cells and putting in extra LHyd tankage.  Better still, put
in water tanks and run the stuff through your fuel processor.  Breathe
some of the waste oxygen and dump the rest.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020411004005.5784B27A85@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020410205654.00a53ce0@mailhost.efn.org>

>     When they met the Terrans, the Vilani were keeping a ZS boot on the
>necks of umpteen minor races, races and home worlds that the Vilani were
>able to keep quiet even as the Terrans racked up victory after victory.
>There is no mention of these plethora of minor races rising in revolt, all
>we hear about is their "welcoming their Terran liberators."

Riiiiiight.  And the United States singlehandedly beat Hitler and liberated 
Europe.  Just ask any contemporary 'Merkun.  (Okay, maybe the Limeys helped 
us out some, but not those dirty Reds, no sir.  And definitely not the 
French - all they know how to do is surrender.  What?  The Chinese?  Were 
they *in* WW2?)


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <20020410122225.B21755@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020411041811.1A229279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/10/02 at 12:22 PM,  "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> said:

>It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over
>me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
>clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
>from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
>awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar.

>I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

That sounds like K'kree hell. Only, they'd then have to *eat* their
work. <g>

It also reminds me of Regina UpPort's famous "Stuff on a Stick"
kiosk...that's where all the left over bits end up.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <no.id> from "John T. Kwon" at Apr 10, 2002 10:36:32 PM
Message-ID: <200204110433.g3B4Xpo25315@shell1.aracnet.com>

> Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).  
> But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You 
> know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or 
> perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.

I've always thought that the 2nd Series of 'Tom Swift' books would make for
some interesting background for a game.  The 1st series would probably make
good background for a 'Steam Punk' game.  Unfortunatly I've never gotten
ahold of any of the 'Tom Corbett' books.
 
> Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I 
> need a bit of camp now and then.

I picked up a copy a few years ago when it was reprinted, but have never
played it.  There is also GURPS: Lensman.

			Zane

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410023924.027e4ad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020411045414.13A9B279F9@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/10/02 at 02:42 AM,  laning <laning@wizard.net> said:

>At 10:46 AM 4/10/02 +1000, Mikey (Michael Hughes) wrote: >PBEM:
>>
>>I am thinking about running a PBEM D&D game for a friend. Does anyone know
>>of a How To website out there for running PBEM RPG sessions?

>I was thinking there's a need for the same thing.  Or at least will
>soon be  a need.  Perhaps interested parties should form a new
>mailing list, and  person or persons on that list be appointed to
>cull together an FAQ for WWW  posting?

http://www.pbem.com/  
    (how too's, mailing list server, ads for players and games,
utilities)

    http://www.pbem.com/howto/harrigan.html
        ("Running a Successful PBeM Campaign")

    http://www.pbem.com/howto/argosy.txt
        ("An Argosy of PBEM Advice", also accessable through pbem.com)

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/1999/11/19/text_gaming/index.html
    ("Word Games" from _Salon Magazine_, compares PBEM to other forms)

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/5835/soapbox.html
    ("PBEM Advice")

http://phoenyx.net/pbemlist.html
    (Phoenyx.net: list server, player and game ads, discussion lists)

http://shatteredworld.8m.com/advice.html
    ("Running Your Own PBEM": links to several articles)

http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Role-Playing/RPG.html
    ("What is roleplaying?")

And once you finish reading all that...<g>...you can come lurk in one,
or more, of my PBEM roleplaying games.  


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:12:13PM +0000
References: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020410225606.A23319@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:12:13PM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>
> The lobsterman removes and measures the damn things while you 
> fish out the used purse and put to fresh on it it's place.

For some value of `fresh'...

:-)

What a nasty sounding concoction.  OTOH, it almost sounds like the
_proper_ way to make Roman fish sauce.  For that, one gets a good mess
of fish and cleans them, then puts a layer of salt at the bottom of a
barrel.  Alternate layers of fish and salt up to the top, covering
over with a good bit of salt.  Store in the right conditions and a
kind of fermentation takes place in which the muscles dissolve and the
bones and scales break apart.  Eventually one opens the barrel and
drains off the liquid, leaving behind a gritty dregs.  The liquid is,
essentially, salty fish water.

Not nearly as disgusting as it sounds, I'm told.  Couldn't get me to
try it, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Taliban representative was explaining the good the Taliban had done
for the country.  He started his statement with `We have disarmed the
people...'                          --CNN special: Inside Afghanistan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:12:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:12:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20410.144847.1G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 10, 2002 02:48:47 PM
Message-ID: <200204110412.g3B4CU601389@localhost.uia.net>

Leonard writes:
> The problem is, different things depend on *different* ratios. 
> 
> Some depend on things like the charge to mass ratio of particles.
> Others depend on things like the ratios of the *squares* of of things.
> And some are things like square roots. Or weirder ratios. 
> 
> You *can't* make them all match. 

Even if all four fundamental forces & inertia (i.e. apparent
mass) drop simultaneously by the same factor? Wouldn't then
the ratios between these values (and those other values based
on them) all stay the same? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020411083544.A5842@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 11, 2002 08:35:44 AM
Message-ID: <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>

> Apart from that, your goal is to have the behaviour of atoms (and more
> complex systems) behave in the same way as before inertial
> suppression, correct?  This requires more than just changing the
> strength of forces.

The goal was to theoretically examine inertial suppression as a
means for making high accelleration (say anywhere from 50g to 1000g)
doable for a STL-based RPG, so that we'd be able to have speedy
interstellar travel from a subjective viewpoint (a few days to a few
weeks from the viewpoint of the crew, although it would be years
or even decades from the viewpoint of those not taking the trip).

In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
physics as we know it, and both of you know a lot more about
physics than I do, so it seems that I'm going to have to relent
and give up on this idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes
infeasible, and we're left with FTL (which has already been done
to death). Ah well... -Jim

> > To do so, I think we really need to look at the most simple
> > problems, involving only a single atom or a pair of atoms.
> 
> OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
> the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
> a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
> strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
> hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
> when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
> decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
> just one simple example.

Most of this flies over my head, but I'll see if I can figure it out and
then get back to ya later... -Jim
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>

Greetings!

In many of the games I've run or played in, the weapon of choice for short 
range combat is invariably a 10-gauge drum fed automatic shotgun (modeled 
after the Berlinetta (sp?) that some folks used to call the "vroom broom" 
or "street sweeper"). There are two things that we found strike terror in 
the hearts of the NPCs (and sometimes other players):

         1) The sound of a shotgun action being worked
         2) The realization that somebody might think shooting white 
phosphorus rounds looked like a good idea

The second point didn't occur until after I had unloaded several rounds 
into a building of hostiles.  It seems that using staggered loads of 
different types (HEAP, HE, WP, Mercury Fulminate, KEAP, and Flechettes) had 
never occurred to anybody else in the game and the damage to the hostiles 
was sort of mind boggling for them.  :-)

Of course we could also talk about the 90cm grenade launcher that turns 
people into portable artillery units.........

I love things that go *BOOM*!   ;-)

Best regards,

Charles

At 12:37 PM 4/11/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Hi all
>
>just a quick comment, I have been reading M16 vs everything else topic 
>with interest and big game hunting rifles just came up, and I realised in 
>all the descriptions of peoples campaigns, its all gauss rifles and FGMPs
>
>I just like to say in our games (GT) the weapon of choice were always 
>Gauss - LAG (basically, a LEMG-20 with a shorter barrel, I made it up 6 
>months before Ground Forces came out) as with a wide range of ammo it can 
>do all sorts of things
>
>we have used fletchettes for unarmoured targets, the APFSDSHD will 
>penetrate about 300DR and once we used baton rounds when we had a job as 
>repo men (they didn't mark the ship up too much). the best thing about 
>them was after a firefight they don't leave many holes, in fact even if 
>fighting opponents in battledress on board a ship, afterwards the ship is 
>usually still useable, I say usually once we accidently broke the powerplant
>
>I've always thought that due to the high level of personal armour in 
>traveller, at high TLs weapons would be designed for penetration rather 
>than ROF or explosive fragmentation
>
>oh well back to the discussion of the pros and cons of M16s and big game 
>rifles
>
>(our other game is a pulp horror game and the elephant gun is a staple)
>
>cheers
>
>Cory
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411013014.029c3e10@pop.wizard.net>

At 04:51 PM 4/10/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I think the hint was 180-200 lbs dangerous game (meaning people)

Precisamundo.  The idea is what you are shooting at will and can gladly 
kill you if you give it the chance.  Different from trying to avoid chasing 
your deer while it runs across half the county before bleeding to death.


>My 'plinking' load
>is a 405 gn hard cast bullet in front of 62 gns of 4895.

LOL, that's some pretty serious plinking.  :->


>Plenty of bang for
>just about anything.  I suspect the 500 gn monolithic solids would work well
>on most game too, as well as the occasional car.

Always handy when your daughter gets old enough to date teenaged boys in 
hot rods.

>Note that this is strictly a short range load.  No 600 meter head shots.

Understood.

--Laning





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:32:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:32:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410222548.02170a50@mail.verizon.net>

Oh boy do I remember it, and somewhere I have the rules packed away.

In fact, I was having a discussion this afternoon with a coworker about 
whether anybody would ever have the testicular fortitude to make a series 
of movies based on the Lensman or Family D'Alembert series. The Japanese 
did an animated version of the Lensman series in the 80s, but we're pretty 
well convinced that in this politically correct time that either the 
studios would edit the jingoism right out of the movie or just say no.

Of course, somewhere I still have notes on a Lensman campaign from a few 
years ago.........

Then again, I think a fun game would be set in Harrison's Stainless Steel 
Rat universe (in fact, I've played in that setting several times).

An interesting game might be one that is either based on Asimov's 
Foundation series, Robot series, or just on "The Caves of Steel".

Best regards,

Charles



At 10:36 PM 4/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).
>But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You
>know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or
>perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.
>
>Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I
>need a bit of camp now and then.
>________________
>When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, 
>they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often 
>use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters 
>of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes 
>over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. 
>Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think 
>most would consider truly lamentable.
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F148K7S8MyBuN6QXhY00000aa29@hotmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn writes:

>Excuse me? How much ammo are you thinking of? For dangerous game
>hunting (the original question) 20 rounds is more than enough, and
>there's no real need for a 10 pound battle rifle. A 7.5 pound light
>sporter will do fine (and that's what my father's PH Magestic from the
>early 60's weighed with scope, etc.), and that's less weight than an
>M16A2.

I interpreted the original question as inquiring about stopping power, using 
a theoretical human sized dangerous animal to gain insight into what caliber 
would be appropriate for stopping a dangerous human ("And I'm curious if the 
following question will produce interesting results").  If you were really 
interested in shooting dangerous game, and not the analogy, of course a 
sporter rifle and a less ammo would be appropriate.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:36:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:36:23 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>; from res0i3sf@verizon.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:25:21PM -0700
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au> <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20020410233434.B23469@4dv.net>

I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
inexpensive ammunition.  There are all sorts of nice & nifty rifles,
and I realise that the ammunition's not going to be cheap--but I'm
really not up to paying 50c a round unless I really, really have to.

Thanks much!

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their
pockets for new vocabulary.                     --James D. Nicoll

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
References: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411013453.029c0450@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert Boleyn says:

>My first choice would probably be a .375 H&H. Much though I admire
>Weatherbys they cost too much and are generally over-powered if you're
>using solids - they'd tend to horribly over-penetrate anything but the
>heaviest game. With expansive bullets I'd drop to a .338 Winchester or
>.340 Weatherby unless in Africa, in which case the .375's would be the
>way to go, IMO. .416s and .458/.460s are good vs buffs, elephants, etc.
>but aren't long-range rounds, so you'd need a second rifle for those
>300-500 yard shots on eland, etc.

Those are the same kinds of conclusions I made from studying books about 
this kind of stuff about 20 years ago.

People who are liking lighter rounds are also exceptionally skilled shots 
and I think factoring in their ability at shot placement more than I myself 
would be comfortable with.  Heard way too many stories from excellent shots 
who lost deer that they good pretty good hits on using .30-'06.  I'm not 
saying they won't get their one-shot kills with lighter rounds.  Just that 
I'd rather not rely on that kind of thing if it were me.

Some of the recent posts on the topic to the TML are modifying my opinions, 
but only somewhat.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411014019.028f40d0@pop.wizard.net>

John T Kwon:
<<<snip>>>
>The situations that Traveller characters find themselves in
>are rarely more than a few opponents, and most are armed
>(depending on the GM, of course) with pistols and short range
>weapons.

Very much depends on the referee as well as the players.  I let them get 
into whichever kind of mischief they choose for themselves.  If tick off 
the Mafia or the city police, they have to deal with that and if they tick 
off the banditos in the Sierra Madre while mining gold they have to deal 
with that.  Or maybe they're dropped by the OSS deep into Burma and have to 
hook up with a stone age tribe to conduct guerilla warfare against the 
Japanese.  (I recommend reading a book called 'The Blue Eyed Shan' btw, for 
people interested in this kind of thing.)

<<<more snippage>>>

What is a PH?

My own characters in other Traveller games have often preferred gauss 
rifles, light machineguns, assault rifles, submachineguns, and blade 
weapons, or even bare hands.  As well as grenade launchers, LAGs, shotguns, 
laser carbines or rifles, FGMPs or PGMPs, and an assortment of hand 
grenades.  I try to have the character own and be familiar with all that 
kind of stuff, and then try to have them take the ones that are best for 
the tactical situation and terrain the character is expecting to be 
in.  Pistols and big game rifles have never been big on my list for my 
characters, even though I've tried to make characters who had those are 
their fortes.

In my most recent gun fight in a "Traveller" game, I carried a 
submachinegun, grenades, and great armor as five of us invaded the local 
despot's palace on an impoverished TL 5 to 6 world.  I didn't bother with 
an edged weapon since the character was awesome at unarmed combat and 
improvised weapons.  Left me more weight allowance for ammo.  Our other big 
gun carried a light machinegun.  He didn't make it.  Wasn't wearing enough 
armor, IMHO.  It's a beer and pretzels referee.

That was face to face Traveller gunfights.  Tod Glenn has been putting my 
character through some hoops in his PBEM game, more recently.  He only has 
Rifle-1 for firearms skills, the rest of his combat skills are for 
melee.  He used a battered carbine at 50 meters to kill a very corrupt cop 
who was sitting in a parked car.  It seemed fair at the time.  <EG>  And 
we're nearing the end of a basically dense jungle patrolling combat between 
an enemy equipped to just shy of battle dress (carrying a lot of the 
nastiest weaponry and gizmos Tod has posted on travellercentral.com) and 
the player characters, equipped to a motley standard of high tech combat 
gear.  I used my high-tech bullpup-style assault rifle with special ammo 
(alternating HVAPFSDS long rod penetrator and HE) and got two of them so 
far.  But in about ten minutes, all the PCs are going to get wiped out by 
nerve gas _plus_ EMP weapons conveniently proposed here on the TML.  Guess 
the Evil GM couldn't wait to try out his new toy on some players.  :->

Don't worry kids.  Come back next Sunday matinee for the next exciting 
installment of 'How Will the PCs Escape the Cliffhanger?'.  Your brave 
heroes are bound to come up with something to escape the elaborate death 
trap.  Probably.  LOL.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F97SgeR4UIS42NXHwGr0001bbad@hotmail.com>

Robert A. Uhl:

>I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
>general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
>to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
>inexpensive ammunition.  There are all sorts of nice & nifty rifles,
>and I realise that the ammunition's not going to be cheap--but I'm
>really not up to paying 50c a round unless I really, really have to.

I think you will have a hard time finding a rifle that is adequate for elk 
that is going to cost less than $0.50 per round.  I'd get a 30-06, but 
anything .270 caliber and above would probably be adequate.

As far as rifles, Savages are good and cheap.  Ugly though.  To be honest, 
there is not much difference between the bottom of the line Savage, Ruger, 
Winchester or Remington.  The nice thing about the latter two is that, if 
you ever decide to do so, you can upgrade the rifle easily.  All 4 brands 
will do the job and last several generations, and they all get pretty good 
accuracy out of the box.  Expect to spend at least $3-400 or so, which might 
include a cheap scope.  Check Wal-Mart.  Get a synthetic stock.  These 
rifles are so cheap, that it might be hard to find a used one for less.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020411083544.A5842@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020411160312.A6708@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
> both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
> physics as we know it,

That it does.  :)

I've worked out a set of variations on all the fundamental constants
that works.  However, upon doing the equations it just works out
equivalent to measuring things in grams instead of kilograms. :/

There was no *real* difference at all, including interaction with the
outside world.  Oh well :(



> so it seems that I'm going to have to relent and give up on this
> idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes infeasible, and we're left
> with FTL (which has already been done to death).

Almost all forms of FTL violate physics as we know it, too.  Don't
take my insistence that inertia suppression doesn't work with known
physics and chemistry to mean that I'd choke and barf if I saw it in a
game.  I quite enjoyed the "Lensman" series, after all :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411023119.028f5a00@pop.wizard.net>

John T Kwon:
>Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I
>need a bit of camp now and then.

A few parts of it seemed to have been photocopied straight from Traveller.

It was aptly named.  I had some very good times in the one Space Opera game 
I played in.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:31:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Hagler)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:31:24 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <20020410233434.B23469@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B8DA7B5A.46DE8%khagler@orange-road.com>

on 4/10/2002 10:34 PM, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
> general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
> to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
> inexpensive ammunition.

If you've got lots of money for the rifle, the Steyr Scout in .308 is good.
It's $2800 new, though. I'm saving up for one.  :-)

<http://www.steyrscout.org/>
-- 
                              Ken Hagler

|          ICQ#: 34591293         |   For PGP key send mail with  |
|   http://www.orange-road.com/   |    subject "Send PGP Key".    |
|   And tho' we are not now that strength which in old days       |
|   Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are --Tennyson  |


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018477349.495.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155047.01de3120@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411023756.028f5390@pop.wizard.net>

At 03:22 PM 4/10/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Actually, no, the drug could easily be responsible.  Much of the reason for
>people falling down when shot is that they know they ought to, and drugs can
>dull the pain response and/or make you too stupid to realize you've been shot.
>
>The fact that he stood there are got shot several times by an M60 may suggest
>why the use of combat drugs is discouraged.  People who are heavily 
>drugged are
>not usually known for their good tactics.

I'm not going to agree with you, except for the part about drugs and 
tactics.  It seems to me that the less personal familiarity people have 
with drugs, and the more they hate the class of people who they feel use 
drugs, the more willing they are to ascribe superhuman abilities to drug 
users who are shot.  We're each entitled to our separate opinions.

I'm most inclined to believe that the guy being repeatedly hit with M-60 
machinegun bursts was some kind of weird fluke regardless of drug 
use.  Otherwise, such an incident would be so routine that it would not 
have been noted as unusual in the book.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411024705.01dc26f0@pop.wizard.net>

Charles McKnight:
>In many of the games I've run or played in, the weapon of choice for short 
>range combat is invariably a 10-gauge drum fed automatic shotgun (modeled 
>after the Berlinetta (sp?) that some folks used to call the "vroom broom" 
>or "street sweeper"). There are two things that we found strike terror in 
>the hearts of the NPCs (and sometimes other players):
>
>         1) The sound of a shotgun action being worked
>         2) The realization that somebody might think shooting white 
> phosphorus rounds looked like a good idea
>
>The second point didn't occur until after I had unloaded several rounds 
>into a building of hostiles.  It seems that using staggered loads of 
>different types (HEAP, HE, WP, Mercury Fulminate, KEAP, and Flechettes) 
>had never occurred to anybody else in the game and the damage to the 
>hostiles was sort of mind boggling for them.  :-)
>
>Of course we could also talk about the 90cm grenade launcher that turns 
>people into portable artillery units.........

:::wipes a tear from the corner of one eye:::

"Son, you make me proud."

Warms my cockles, that does.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <20020411045414.13A9B279F9@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410023924.027e4ad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411024937.01dc7010@pop.wizard.net>

Wow, hadn't realized that 'Salon' had already visited the PBEM world.

Thanks for the good URLs.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410222548.02170a50@mail.verizon.net>
References: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411025215.029cb0e0@pop.wizard.net>

Charles McKnight:
>Then again, I think a fun game would be set in Harrison's Stainless Steel 
>Rat universe (in fact, I've played in that setting several times).

I'm for it!!!

Get Spielberg to executive produce it.  He's a lover of pulp SF.  Then 
you'll have money.  But don't let near the script or the director.  He 
pasteurizes everything into pablum.

And don't forget voice overs of Slippery Jim's interior monologue.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
Message-ID: <memo.437377@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410180651.009f12d0@mindspring.com>
When in the British army, I got bawled out for not wearing my stripes on 
combat clothing (they were correctly displayed on other uniforms). I 
pointed out that in the field: -

a. I didn't want the enemy to know what rank I was.
b. My own people knew me already.

I then added some removable stripes, which only went on when there was an 
officer around :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.
Formerly Sergeant, 22nd (Cheshire) Regiment.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 01:01:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 00:01:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <memo.437376@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020411041811.1A229279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
>It also reminds me of Regina UpPort's famous "Stuff on a Stick"
>kiosk...that's where all the left over bits end up.

Don't say that, my character in Mole's PBeM just had his supper there :-(

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 01:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Apr 11 00:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020411024231.00967100@minn.net>

At 12:37 PM 4/11/2002 +1000, Cory wrote:

>I've always thought that due to the high level of personal armour in 
>traveller, at high TLs weapons would be designed for penetration rather 
>than ROF or explosive fragmentation
>
>oh well back to the discussion of the pros and cons of M16s and big game
rifles

Back when I was involved in the patriot movement (I posted the ASCII text
of the first issue of THE RESISTER on usenet) I bought a STG 58 (Austrian
FAL) parts kit and had a gunsmith rebuild it on a semi-auto D.S. Arms
reciever. I also bought 25 magazines, 4000+ rounds of British surplus
ammunition and a ELCAN optical sight for it. 

My MTF transexual landlady asked me if the glowing green triangle in the
ELCAN reticle was for shooting gay martians. When I showed my rifle to the
fellow who edited THE RESISTER he moved the selector switch to what was the
full-auto postion and gave me the look of child expecting a REALLY NEAT
Christmas present.

"NO NO NO N0, Steve," I said, "it doesn't do that, I tried it already."


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 01:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 00:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperial OpSix Force
In-Reply-To: <20020410225606.A23319@4dv.net>
References: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:12:13PM +0000
Message-ID: <3CB4F99B.6983.2E9659D@localhost>

It=92s a hot day as the press core sits on the open benches in front of a 
small stage adorn with several strange looking devices.  They could only 
assume they are weapons since this is a press conference of the Imperial 
Marine training center.  A lone marine petty officer steps forward. 

=93This hour you will be introduced to our newest training technique the 
OpSix force formally called the Starfish Regiment.  This united is 
designed to represent the Hiver federation.   All the troops are not only 
versed in the weapons, tactics and techniques of the Hivers, but also to 
insure the most realistic training they are all experts in the use of the 
Mark II mock Hiver Environmental Suit.=94

At this moment a shirk comes up from the back of the press core as four 
strange creatures appear armed and looking deadly.  Another appears on 
stage and with its many arms [wiggle] [wave wave] [flagellate] [wave 
point flail].


=93Its ok its just members of the OpSix force.  That was just a simple 
demonstration of how realistic the suits are and now Lt. Sherow will take 
over.  A woman seems to unfold herself from the suit.  

=93What I did when I got on stage was give you our Motto.  Experts at 
Retreating=85 That=92s just what we want you to think.  Now I will continu=
e 
explain how this force works.=94

The dog and pony show drags on


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410222548.02170a50@mail.verizon.net>
References: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <v04020a15b8dad9a13fa9@[192.168.1.5]>

>In fact, I was having a discussion this afternoon with a coworker about
>whether anybody would ever have the testicular fortitude to make a series
>of movies based on the Lensman or Family D'Alembert series. The Japanese
>did an animated version of the Lensman series in the 80s, but we're pretty

Have you seen it?  I saw it back in '93, as I remember it was a lot more
like Star Wars rather than the Lensman series.  Still, I enjoyed it, and
wouldn't mind getting a copy of it on DVD.

>well convinced that in this politically correct time that either the
>studios would edit the jingoism right out of the movie or just say no.

I'm scared to think what a mess a studio would make out of it!

			Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|          PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum.         |
|                http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/               |

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F217LltyKF5Q6JVW8s20001d6e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20411.003056.1J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Mr. Erickson,
>
>      Yes, as your other posts illustrated, a planet is a VERY BIG place!  
> Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the 
> conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.
>
> In another bout of hyperbole, I posted, "... the Ziro Sirka would have, 
> could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it glowed."
>
>      "Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
> Millions, hundreds of millions."
>
>      But of course.  Would you care to hazard a guess just what sort of 
> firepower it would have taken for the ZS to remove Terra as a threat?  How 
> many warheads, kinetic strikes, spinal mount hits, and plain old iron bombs 
> would it have taken "de-industrialize" Terra?

Probably more than was practical. Especially given that humans were
pretty well spread out in the solar system as well. 

Exact figures would require knowing a lot more about what was where and
how it was defended. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:18:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:18:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGGCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20411.002719.0T1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> >
>> >A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
>> >bone from a walrus penis.  See
>> >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html
>>
> So when I tell my girlfriend that I've got a "Boner",
> I'm really speaking Eskimo?

Nope. Humans are one of the mammals that *don't* have a penis bone. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:20:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:20:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410025314.02b56df0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20411.003332.4n3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I have too vague an image of how canonical nuclear dampers will precisely 
> behave to really describe all how they will help, and what will be beyond 
> their help.  It probably varies quite a bit from one referee's TU to 
> another's.  I'd guess some referees only have them work if they're focused 
> on ground zero at the time of the explosion, while others let you do 
> whatever kind of prevention and clean up sounds theoretically within the 
> limits of such a technology.

Stopping a bomb from going off requires pretty good focus. Accelerating
decay doesn't and (as I recall) is well within the abilities of the
dampers as described in official source materials.

I tend to consider them *less* useful than the original descriptions,
simply because that decay energy has to go *somewhere*. It won't just
disappear. Thus my comments about heat limiting the speed of cleanup.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:21:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:21:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409223004.02132f28@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <20411.003635.3k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Which reminds me. Some day I need to sit down and try to figure out what 
>>would be required to produce a "burned off" world such as appears in some 
>>of Norton's books.
>
> While I'm not familiar with Norton's "burned off" worlds (I don't tend to 
> read Norton), the easiest way to completely clobber a planet with Traveller 
> technology is to drop a few big rocks on it.  With Traveller maneuver 
> drives, it should be relatively easy to nudge a number of asteroids in the 
> 100,000dton or bigger class into an intercept trajectory with a planet, and 
> that should be all that's needed.

Norton's examples are basicly worlds that got the entire surface
slagged. 

A few didn't quite get it that bad. And most were done with "dirty"
weapons. 

On Terra much of North Ammerica is a lifeless wasteland that is still
too radioactive to enter safely centuries later. Again, lots of
"radioactive glass" surface. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:23:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:23:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <002101c1e027$4452ada0$3cb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <20411.004119.4s9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> You seem to be fairly consistently a couple of days behind on the
> list, BTW.  Are you just behind, or is it something to do with the
> exotic 19th Century computers you use?

I was sick, and I'm still trying to catch up. 

And sorry, but the computers I use aren't *that* old. Well, the abaci,
are, but they aren't used for email.

This box isn't all that old. AMD K6-2/500 cpu, 320 meg of RAMN, etc. It
just so happens that it's running OS/2 and the mail software is running
in a DOS window.

Viruses don't have a chance. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAAEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Robert A. Uhl wrote :
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:54:19AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> >
> > Shakepear didn't have any copyrights on his work -
> > they didn't exist at that time.
>
> That was indeed part of my point...

Of course, Shakespeare was _lucky_ that copyright didn't exist,
or he'd have had his arse sued off by the people he stole his
plays from.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:53:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:53:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEELHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

People are discussing "open source" or free game rules and
claiming it's going to put game designers out of work.

This is basically crap.

FUDGE is sold, and it is completely freely available at the same
time.

GURPS Lite is given away, as were the basic rules for Alternity,
among others.

The D20 system is "open source" and there are many designers
making money off it, (or planning to make money off it) including
Hunter Gordon on this list.

Personally, I think D20 is  a "Bad Thing", not because it won't
make money, but because it will stifle creativity in mechanics.
Designers will face the choice "shall I design my own system,
whichh might fail, or shall I design a game based on D20 which
will probably guarantee me some sales I wouldn't have otherwise."
But that's just my opinion, and because I don't like the idea of
"character levels" in games.

People mentioned "Gates vs Linux".
In the D20 case though, it is like Gates deciding to open source
Windows 2000!

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:55:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:55:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8d974f770c0@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :

> But we are talking about security measure that are
> intrusive enough that the are a hassle to the day
> to day operation of a ship.

Yes.

Just as being searched for screwdrivers and penknives is
currently a hassle in the day to day operation of an airline.

> Some people are going to know about them.

Everyone will be _told_ about them. They won't be secret.

> Unless they are important  enough to make a _significant_
change in costs,
> another company will be able to draw at least some customers
away buy not
> having such intrusive requirements.

The requirements are set by the SPA and the local civilian
government, not the insurance company, as I already said :

> >The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
> >required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
> >may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
> >starport will do it (for important safety and
> >financial reasons,would you want an unwarranted vehicle
> >approaching an extremely expensve space station?), there won't
> >be any real choice except for the captains to take the risk
> >of not doing it and not go to the better starports
>
> The presumption is that every insurance company will have such
> requirements.

No, the presumption is that no insurance company will accept
liability for an illegal ship.

Because of that, if the ship owners wish to be able to recover
the cost of their starship in the event of an accident, they will
attempt to ensure their ship is legal at all times.

> That requires that you show that such requirements
> make a significant difference in insurance costs.

I suspect that any company willing to knowingly insure an illegal
ship, and be expected to pay out, will charge ten times, if not
more, than the normal going rate. And as such an organization is
almost certainly going to be criminal anyway, they may charge the
additional premiums and still not pay out.

> Otherwise insurance companies have no reason to
> push unpopular requirements.
>
> However, if you can show that such requirements are
> needed to keep theft down to a reasonable level, then
> you don't need to invoke insurance companies requiring it.
>
> In the end, invoking insurance companies is not a way
> of justifying  regulations that don't have other basis.

I agree.

However, as already stated,  the insurance companies are not the
justification for the regulations, the starport authority and
civilian govermnment is the justification for the regulations.

Insurance is just the reason the owner of the ship wants to obey
the regulations. After all, the owner may not care that there is
the possibility of a hijack, and may not care how much damage the
hijacked ship does, as long as they know they will be paid out by
the insurance company, all the ship owner has to worry about is
replacing their ship. The insurance company has to worry about
liability for damage to other ships and facilities.

I suspect that in the event of a hijack, the insurance company
will _not_ be your friend, they will be trying _very_ hard to
prove that you did not have adequate safeguards to avoid paying
out the ninety billion in damages to the residents of the suburb
the ship crashed in. If they succeeed, then the liability suit
will go against the owner of the ship.

Have a look at the completely OTT security that is currently
being applied to domestic air travel.
Confiscation of pen-knives and scissors is admittedly stupid, but
this is the sort of stupidity that you will have to deal with in
the SPA and local governments.

Think about the difference in damage potential between a 747 and
a subsidized merchant.
Then think about the greater effect that damage will have on an
orbital starport.

Security on a starship will be required to be tight to prevent
"passengers" from taking control of the starship and flying it
into the starport, or other targets of oppurtunity.

Without proof of the requisite security, you will not be allowed
near the "better" starports or planets, just as any airlines that
are not willing to implement the silly current restrictions would
not be allowed to operate out of major airports.

I agree that on current sea-going ships security is relatively
lax (And a lot of people equate traveller merchants to sea-going
merchants). But changing that will take just a single incident
where a terrorist group takes over a large tanker, turns it into
a floating bomb or biological weapon release system, and sails it
into a heavily populated harbour and sets it off. I believe this
has already been done in fiction, and one has only to look at the
Halifax incident to see the potential for destruction.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:57:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:57:17 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
In-Reply-To: <20020410123043.C21755@4dv.net>
References: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020410123043.C21755@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020411015015.56c0a4db.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> So he went on down to the consul, they all had a good laugh, and the
> letter informing the German registry that Calvert is approved for use
> in America was sent.
> 
> OTOH, I daresay Germany has no-one name Moon Unit or Dweezil, so the
> policy is not entirely incorrect.

In Sweden, the Department of Statistics maintains a webpage where it is
possible to query for the number of people with any name. Very
entertaining.

Calvert : 1 (male)
Sauron : 1 (male)  -  !!!
Legolas : 5 (male)
Gandalf : 15 (male)
Grus : 19 (male)  -  This name means "gravel"

And my favorite:

Skywalker : 9 (male)

The persons who have this name have it as a middle name. They are probably
named "Luke Skywalker Svensson" or something similiar.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:59:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:59:10 2002
Subject: [TML] test
In-Reply-To: <3CB4BE9A.1155267C@premier.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204101430010.1171-100000@rhylanor>
 <3CB4BE9A.1155267C@premier.net>
Message-ID: <20020411015618.314b70fa.jenry023@student.liu.se>

John Groth wrote:
> Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled in terror, and you
> would not have been informed.

Had this been a real emergency, you would all be dead by now.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 04:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeffrey Malone)
Date: Thu Apr 11 03:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Lost Causes
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17951@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <00dc01c1e140$61de4e00$a92554d2@1338700057>

To paraphrase (IIRC) Harry Summers in 'On Strategy', a (possibly apocryphal)
conversation between a US Army officer and a PAVN officer, some years later:

USA - "You know, you never defeated us on the battlefield"

PAVN - "Quite correct.  And also irrelevant."

The Tet Offensive was a great example of the 'CNN Effect' well ahead of
time, of perception having more effect than reality.  The NLF was utterly
devested in 1968, ultimately leading to cadres from the North taking control
of the struggle in the South.  But that was not the perception of the voting
public, and the rest is history...


----- Original Message -----
From: Hughes, Michael <Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 8:19 AM
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Lost Causes


> The Dougster:
> In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat
> in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?
>
> Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public
> opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the
> region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.
>
> Mikey:
> The US were never really going to win that one. As Uncle Ho is fondly
> remembered saying 'I am willing to lose 10 men for each one of yours'.
Hell,
> I think the toll in Vietnam for the conflict was about a million on the
> Communist side. So given loses of 50k for the US that's like 20 to 1.
>
> Besides it's a bit hard to 'save' a country that won't save itself.
>
> My 0.02 of course, so don't roast me slowly over a verbal BBQ.
>
> I'm studying Vietnam now at uni. I particularly enjoyed the battle of Ap
Bac
> (?), which got turned into a major propaganda piece about the South wiping
> the floor with Communist insurgents. When the smoke cleared they found
just
> 3 bodies....
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 05:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 04:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204111145.DVD01524@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert Uhl asks about a GP rifle
<snip>
A Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 for deer. Just right.

Not truly reliable for elk, but it's been done.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 05:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 04:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204111147.DVD01644@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning asks
>what is a PH?

Professional Hunter
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 06:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr 11 05:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Real-world biometrics
Message-ID: <F135SenAbcZbxX9QeCw00005b24@hotmail.com>

Someone recently mentioned a well-established trick in
fiction of defeating a thumbprint scanner by cutting
off an authorized person's thumb.  Real life appears
to have caught up...

"Biometrics Can Be Painful"
current (April 11, 2002) issue at http://www.w2knews.com

Synopsis:
A company placed automated bank teller machines at mining
installations in South Africa, and used thumbprint ID.
Within weeks, they had to take them out - there were
too many incidents of people getting attacked and having
their thumbs cut off.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 06:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 11 05:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RealLife(tm) Battledress, next chapter
References: <20020411004005.5784B27A85@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <204AD90A.F27541C2@earthlink.net>

This is kinda fun...

http://www.aro.army.mil/soldiernano/


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 06:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Thu Apr 11 05:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <3CB4F721.DEF69043@sympatico.ca>; from stosh@sympatico.ca on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:38:25PM -0400
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDHDKAA.tml@downport.com> <3CB4F721.DEF69043@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20020411083438.B9890@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:38:25PM -0400, Michael Stasica wrote:
> 
> A friend job that I fear to visualize:
> 
> Giving enemas to elephants, with a 27 pound suppository in my right hand (
> gloved to the neck) and a hose in my left hand.  A broom and a shovel for the
> resultant mess, nearby.
> 
ISTR an incident where an unfortunate person got caught in and buried
by the generous outflow with fatal results...

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Real-world biometrics
In-Reply-To: <F135SenAbcZbxX9QeCw00005b24@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411085821.02b4ef78@192.168.0.1>

At 08:14 AM 4/11/2002 -0400, Walt Smith wrote:
>Someone recently mentioned a well-established trick in
>fiction of defeating a thumbprint scanner by cutting
>off an authorized person's thumb.  Real life appears
>to have caught up...
>"Biometrics Can Be Painful"
>current (April 11, 2002) issue at http://www.w2knews.com
>Synopsis:
>A company placed automated bank teller machines at mining
>installations in South Africa, and used thumbprint ID.
>Within weeks, they had to take them out - there were
>too many incidents of people getting attacked and having
>their thumbs cut off.

Ah...South Africa...home of the flame thrower anti-carjacking device...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F195GoE1k8LN6FWe7Xl0000b978@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB635B9.12478.8D0AC6@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 0:35, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>      The Imperial China the "Southern Barbarians" began contacting in the 
> 1500's was in one of it's disintergration phases.  The Ming were on the way 
> out, the Manchus were trying to get in, pirates and warlords abounded.  The 
> periphary was unravelling, Taiwan was a pirate kingdom that the Chinese paid 
> the Dutch to tackle for them, Korea either lost to the Japanese or 
> independent, Tibet gone, the far west lost to various horse peoples.  The 
> Ming were straining every nerve just to keep the lid on, and they failed.  
> After them, the Manchu were nothing more than a foreign dynasty simply 
> trying to remain in power.  They restored nothing of China's former power or 
> borders, even losing more territory as their dynasty went on.
>      Does any of that sound like the Ziru Sirka to you?

Yep. The Vilani already had problems when the Terrans turned up. They 
no longer had a monoploy on jump drives and were  suffering from piracy 
from outside their borders by minor races. That's why they thought the 
Terrans were just a bunch of pirates to start with.

>      When they met the Terrans, the Vilani were keeping a ZS boot on the 
> necks of umpteen minor races, races and home worlds that the Vilani were 
> able to keep quiet even as the Terrans racked up victory after victory.  
> There is no mention of these plethora of minor races rising in revolt, all 
> we hear about is their "welcoming their Terran liberators."  How were the 
> Vilani able to keep all those minor races down, how were they able to play 
> power politics with Vargr merc pawns, how were they able to still do all of 
> that, and STILL lose to a single system polity?

Because the Vargr were not that far from Vland, and were an altogether 
higher prioroty. As for the minor races - the Vilani controlled the 
transport and information flow, so the subject races may not have even 
heard of the Terrans until they were right inside their subsector and 
impossible for the Vilani to hide any longer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6380C.25968.9620C5@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 20:36, John T. Kwon wrote:

> If you also consider that Traveller gun combat is at about 
> the same range as a Cape Buffalo encounter, and you're 
> probably going to live for about as many shots (two, maybe 
> three), then I think that whatever makes a good Cape Buffalo 
> weapon might make a good Traveller combat weapon.
> 
> Let's see.  We'll make it .416 Remington, since we can still 
> get Speer tungsten core solids. 

Don't like the .416 Remington (unreasoning dislike - nothing I can pin 
down). I'd take either a .416 Rigby, a .458 Winchester or a .378 
Weatherby - the latter having the advantage of being a fine long-range 
weapon.
 
> The rifle should be a 4-shot controlled-feed pre-64 
> Winchester action (with fixed ejector).  Barrel length should 
> be 22 inches, and we'll go with a muzzle brake.

That's a horridly short barrel for a round like any of the .416s, and 
with a muzzle brake on it you're not going to be making friends of your 
allies, that's for sure.

> The stock 
> should be optimized for firing on your hind legs, and we'll 
> put a Trijicon Reflex sight on top, with express sights just 
> in case that gets broken.

Now this I can agree on, though a x2 - x5 vari-power scope would be a 
nice altenative (gives the option of longer shots).

> Get yourself a pouch that holds 20 rounds, maybe keep 40 
> rounds in your pack.  More than enough for most Traveller 
> adventures.

Yep.

I was thinking of another choice earlier today - the Lee-Enfield SMLE 
or No4. The .303 British is a fine round, and a bit milder than the .30-
06 or 7.92x57mm, and the Mark VII round is more wounding than you might 
think, thanks to careful design - it had an aluminium or peat insert in 
the nose of the bullet, making it 'rear heavy'. The bullet also has an 
exposed lead base (like most ball ammo of the time), which means that 
its rear is quite weak. The combination of these two features results 
in a bullet that tumbles rapidly in flesh (for a full-bore round) and 
flattens at the rear, resulting in something that spins like a sycamore 
seed. We once fired some into a 40 pound block of cheddar and the 
'wound track' was interesting and rather larger than that of .30-06 
ball, though not so large as that of a .30-06 soft nose. Of course this 
isn't a perfect demo, as cheese won't spring back from the temporary 
cavity the way a person's body will, but still.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB638C4.8619.98EF71@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 22:36, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).  
> But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You 
> know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or 
> perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.
> 
> Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I 
> need a bit of camp now and then.

Played it for years, back in the day. A friend of mine maintains that 
it's ruined his ability to enjoy newer SF games - they just aren't 
_real_ SF rpgs without Gene Day ink drawings, many typos and large 
sections of unplayable rules.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet... or even
the moon?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Huxton" <red@archonet.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:04 PM
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters


> Idle speculation from an idle speculator, and it must have been asked
> before...
>
> We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any upper limit
> ("that's no moon...")
>
> I had a sudden vision of a jump-capable planet working its way around the
> galaxy sucking gas giants dry between jumps.
>
> Any gearheads got a spreadsheet that can handle this?
>
> Oh, no cheating of course, you have to do this using LBB Book 2 rules at
TL13
> and bring the cost in at under 100MCr ;-)
>
> - Richard Huxton
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:37:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:37:08 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <20020410233434.B23469@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>; from res0i3sf@verizon.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:25:21PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CB63A21.15419.9E4377@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 23:34, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
> general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
> to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
> inexpensive ammunition.  There are all sorts of nice & nifty rifles,
> and I realise that the ammunition's not going to be cheap--but I'm
> really not up to paying 50c a round unless I really, really have to.
> 
> Thanks much!

My advice would be a .30-06, as it'll work on just about anything you 
have in the US (though I believe that most people consider it a little 
small for brown bear). If you're concerned about recoil something like 
a 7x57mm or 7mm Remington express would be fine, or a .243 winchester, 
6mm Remington or .25-06 for that matter. Now, that was lots of help, 
wasn't it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:39:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:39:08 2002
Subject: [TML] A 'Billion' Earth's.......
Message-ID: <20020411133823.87249.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com>

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_medical/story.jsp?story=283413

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <F97SgeR4UIS42NXHwGr0001bbad@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 6:00, Sam D wrote:

> As far as rifles, Savages are good and cheap.  Ugly though.  To be
> honest, there is not much difference between the bottom of the line
> Savage, Ruger, Winchester or Remington.  The nice thing about the
> latter two is that, if you ever decide to do so, you can upgrade the
> rifle easily.  All 4 brands will do the job and last several
> generations, and they all get pretty good accuracy out of the box. 
> Expect to spend at least $3-400 or so, which might include a cheap
> scope.  Check Wal-Mart.  Get a synthetic stock.  These rifles are so
> cheap, that it might be hard to find a used one for less. 

Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle 
you like the look of. As Jim Charmichel once said "You're a very lucky 
man if you get to spend more time firing your rifle than looking at 
it." That being the case there's no point getting a rifle you can't 
stand the sight of.

Another thing - unless you intend on doing a lot of long range shooting 
don't be too concerned about extreme accuracy - despite what many of us 
have been ranting on about getting 2" at 100 yards is plenty good 
enough for most (non-varmint) hunting - that's still a deer's lower 
chest at 300 yards, easy.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:43:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:43:35 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411013453.029c0450@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB63B80.28309.A39F58@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 1:39, laning wrote:

> People who are liking lighter rounds are also exceptionally skilled shots 
> and I think factoring in their ability at shot placement more than I myself 
> would be comfortable with.  Heard way too many stories from excellent shots 
> who lost deer that they good pretty good hits on using .30-'06.  I'm not 
> saying they won't get their one-shot kills with lighter rounds.  Just that 
> I'd rather not rely on that kind of thing if it were me.
> 
> Some of the recent posts on the topic to the TML are modifying my opinions, 
> but only somewhat.

One thing that struck me - in all this 5.56 vs 7.62 nobody has 
suggested that that P90 thingie's round (I forget it's designation) 
would be a desirable alternative.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:48:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:48:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
In-Reply-To: <memo.437377@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CB63CCB.4807.A8A983@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 7:58, Megan Robertson wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410180651.009f12d0@mindspring.com>
> When in the British army, I got bawled out for not wearing my stripes on 
> combat clothing (they were correctly displayed on other uniforms). I 
> pointed out that in the field: -
> 
> a. I didn't want the enemy to know what rank I was.
> b. My own people knew me already.
> 
> I then added some removable stripes, which only went on when there was an 
> officer around :-)

We didn't (and don't) wear rank in the field. In fact we went to having 
NCO rank on removeable brassards so that you didn't have to have so 
many different shirts, and so that it could be taken off and put on 
again depending on circumstances more readily. Wearing rank in the 
field is about as bright as saluting in the field. In fact it was SOP 
for field dress to have no insignia on it at all now that I think about 
it.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <200204111145.DVD01524@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB63DAD.23897.AC1EE3@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 7:45, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Robert Uhl asks about a GP rifle
> <snip>
> A Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 for deer. Just right.
> 
> Not truly reliable for elk, but it's been done.

Just to keep things going - I'm not a fan big fan of the .30-30 (though 
I nearly bought one ten years ago - got an SKS instead), as IMO it's 
underpowered for larger deer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
 <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20020411155818.5b11fc3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Christopher Pratt wrote:
> What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet... or
even
> the moon?

Calculations for Luna follow:

Using a diameter of 3.476 E+6 meters:

Volume: 1.759 E+20 cubic meters

Displacement: 1.257 E+19 displacement tons

Surface area: 3.796 E+13 square meters

FF&S2 structural factor: 1.037 E+25

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204111402.DVH05321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>On 11 Apr 2002 at 1:39, laning wrote:
>Heard way too many stories from excellent shots 
> who lost deer that they good pretty good hits on using .30-
>'06.

A good shot is not necessarily a good hunter.  Some misguided 
souls believe that a bullet is a magical item that will make 
up for a rump shot, or a hit low in the belly.

There are, indeed, rounds that will enter the back end of a 
moose and come out the front, disrupting everything on the 
way through.  But it's better to pick where you're going to 
hit.  And consider what effect that's going to have.  This 
often means passing up a shot, or waiting for the animal to 
change aspect.

I'm convinced that the concepts brought out in Fackler's work 
apply to all animals.  You need a hit on the major nervous 
systems (brain or high in the spinal cord), or you need a hit 
that will get the animal to perish from hemorrhagic shock.  I 
have found that it's best to try to break bone in deer, 
because they can still run while bleeding to death.  Since 
I'm not doing headshots on deer, I try to break the shoulder 
in particular.  I can't see how a .30-06 would fail to break 
the shoulder if loaded with a proper weight bullet (150 
grains or higher, 180 grains being typical).  

ObTrav: In my revision (or supplanting) of the various 
Traveller gun combat systems, I have a penetration 
threshold/degredation for armor.  Even if a round penetrates 
armor, there are limits then on how badly you can be hurt.  
Of course, if the weapon has a really high penetration value, 
then this effect can be overcome, in much the same way that a 
really powerful hunting caliber can make up for shooting elk 
or moose from behind.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <F117uMJ4ySUfjhcgrqo00002681@hotmail.com>

Robert A. Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

You simply need a higher quality worst enemy to give it to.
:-)

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
Walsm Penor, or Terith Smipel, depending on which
iteration of the Lucasian name generator we're using.
I kind of like Terith Penor.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:42:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:42:07 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F107XkF81yvoXFMxmyh000181e3@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>I'm convinced that the concepts brought out in Fackler's work
>apply to all animals.

I think this is a very good point.  Whether you are a hunter, acting in self 
defense, a cop or a soldier, your objective should be the same.  Despite 
occassional talk that hunters are content to let a wounded deer slip away or 
are very concerned about damaging too much meat, my experience is just the 
opposite.  Most of the hunters I know, if an animal does not drop like a 
sack of bricks, immediately start thinking about practicing more or getting 
a more powerful rifle.  In fact, hunters and cops seem to take "stopping 
power" much more seriously than the military.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F99548IlvMTkL01NspD000142b4@hotmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn said:

>Just to keep things going - I'm not a fan big fan of the .30-30 (though
>I nearly bought one ten years ago - got an SKS instead), as IMO it's
>underpowered for larger deer.

Although I have learned that one must tread carefully when critisizing the 
30/30, I tend to agree.  My problem is not so much with its stopping power 
as with its poor ballistics.  The 30/30's point blank range is only like 200 
yards, while you will get 300 or more with a more modern cartridge.  The 
accuracy is pretty bad too, and difficult to remedy, but adequate for short 
range.  It is a fine looking weapon, but unless longer shots are out of the 
question I would get a bolt action.

You are better off getting a cheap rifle and a more expensive scope.  Unless 
you are a very skilled rifleman, a decent scope (either 4x, 2-7 or 3-9) is a 
great asset.  Nice binocs are also important.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411075617.009f3d90@mindspring.com>

At 10:36 PM 4/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).

Actually, when I get the time and energy to run games, they tend to be 
deadly serious.


>Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I
>need a bit of camp now and then.

I loved that game!  I think the authors got paid by the subcase in the rules.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:12:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Kim)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:12:09 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB63B80.28309.A39F58@localhost>
References: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
 <3CB63B80.28309.A39F58@localhost>
Message-ID: <p05101502b8db5700ec4e@[10.0.1.10]>

At 1:42 AM +1200 4/12/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

>One thing that struck me - in all this 5.56 vs 7.62 nobody has
>suggested that that P90 thingie's round (I forget it's designation)
>would be a desirable alternative.

	5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar 
helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target 
(titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle 
velocity of 715m/s.

	http://www.remtek.com/arms/fn/p90/index.htm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:26:10 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204111525.DVL00842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
<snip about the .30-30, buying a weapon, scope, etc>

Most hunters I know (unless they are out west where the 
terrain permits it) don't shoot past 100 yards.  Yes, the .30-
30 has a range limit (look at the energy drop off for 5.56 
while you're at it), but 100 yards is just fine.  I like to 
get close.  I can hit paper way out there, but animals move 
in unpredictable ways, and I'm wanting to hit shoulder.

Keep in mind that many bolt-action/cartridge combinations are 
capable of working far beyond the shooter's ability.  The 
shooter will probably never explore that limit.  Many hunters 
I have met are not capable of shooting up to what they carry, 
not to mention even a lowly .30-30.

Many bolt-action stocks are not natural pointers - it always 
seems uncomfortable in the standing, kneeling, or sitting 
position.  Sometimes I think that the designer figured that 
everyone wants a flat beavertail fore-end for shooting from 
the bench.  Screw that.  I hate my Sendero precisely because 
it doesn't "point".

The typical lever-action Marlin or Winchester will point like 
there's no tomorrow - a good factor for a beginning (or even 
experienced) shooter who is shooting in the field.  Tod may 
laugh and figure I'm like that guy who brought us the M-14 
stock.

At 100 yards, you can get excellent results without a scope.  
If you have a Marlin 336, you can get a rear fold-down peep 
sight for about 25 dollars.  Sight this in, and go practice 
shooting on your hind legs at 50 to 100 yards.  If you can 
find a little valley, you can practice shooting downhill, 
uphill, etc.  Carry a pack with some paper plates and 
thumbtacks.  Practice standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone 
to see which one you're most comfortable with, and which one 
you find quick.  At home, you can practice getting into 
positions using your empty rifle.  Many people *never* 
practice this.  Learning what your body likes and dislikes 
about positions, and learning what makes a solid position 
only comes from this practice.

A good sling is also essential.  Many like the Ching Sling, 
but I am still fond of the leather military two-piece.  Stay 
slung up with this, and you can shoot standing to 100 yards 
with great accuracy.

A Win 94 or Marlin 336 may be cheap, may not be tackdrivers, 
but with little extra equipment, they can put a softpoint 
onto a paper plate at 100 yards very quickly.

If you're interested in reloading your cartridges, you can 
get a fairly inexpensive Lee 2001 (single station frame 
press).  I still have the one I got in 1984, and although 
I've gotten better dies and tools, I find it just as good as 
my Redding or RCBS.  This will lower the cost of your shots, 
and will allow you to spend more time with your hobby.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:32:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:32:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F70SDx1kLwxTQTYkWSz00001108@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "Yep. The Vilani already had problems when the Terrans turned up. They 
no longer had a monoploy on jump drives and were  suffering from piracy from 
outside their borders by minor races. That's why they thought the Terrans 
were just a bunch of pirates to start with."


Mr. Boleyn,

     I thought the "Outies" were all recruited, armed, and paid for by 
factions in the Ziru Sirka.  The Vargr were the exception in all of this 
because most of them hadn't rounded Windhorn yet and they don't have the 
staying power necessary for conquest (as we all detailed in the problems 
with the DGP's Rebellion).  Sounds as if I'm going to have to sit down and 
think about this much, much, MUCH more.
     The local ZS reps may have thought the Terrans were pirates up to a 
point, but only fools or traitors would have thought so after the 2nd IW and 
the Vilani visit to the Sol system.

     "Because the Vargr were not that far from Vland, and were an altogether 
higher priority."

     In the coreward sections of the ZS, sure, but in the early days the ZS 
Rim should have been able to handle Sol on their own.  IIRC, the ZS core 
fleet was dispatched to deal with the Terrans late in the IW period, but the 
Confederation already had jump3 technology and mousetrapped the ZS fleet.

     "As for the minor races - the Vilani controlled the transport and 
information flow, so the subject races may not have even heard of the 
Terrans until they were right inside their subsector and impossible for the 
Vilani to hide any longer."

     Yeah, I've got to think this over even more.  To my mind, minor race 
rebellions aided and abetted by Terran infiltrators should be a big part of 
the Interstellar Wars.  There would have been uprisings and sabotage a 
sector or so "behind" the fighting front and the minor race allies providing 
the lower-TL cannon fodder for the Alliance's offensives.
     Thanks for the ideas to chew over.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 10:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 09:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
Message-ID: <4b.1b7f2094.29e70e82@aol.com>

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From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet 
cover.  In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.

   And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the first 
place? The Lt. maybe? lol!

  -Ken Murphy-



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;
<BR>
<BR>I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet 
<BR>cover. &nbsp;In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the first place? The Lt. maybe? lol!
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 11:46:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Thu Apr 11 10:46:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020411160312.A6708@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 11, 2002 04:03:12 PM
Message-ID: <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
> > both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
> > physics as we know it,
> 
> That it does.  :)
> 
> I've worked out a set of variations on all the fundamental constants
> that works.  However, upon doing the equations it just works out
> equivalent to measuring things in grams instead of kilograms. :/
> 
> There was no *real* difference at all, including interaction with the
> outside world.  Oh well :(

Really? Hmm... this makes me think about that last example you
posed:

> OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
> the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
> a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
> strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
> hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
> when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
> decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
> just one simple example.
> 
> Hence inertial suppression requires more than just changing the
> strength of forces.  If you want the atoms to behave the same way, you
> need to alter fundamental constants as well.
 
Why does h influence the size of the atom?

Also, how do we know that h is a fundamental constant and not
dependant on the factors we might be changing (i.e. fundamental
forces) with the intertial suppression scheme?

That said:
I presume m_e is mass of electron and q_e is charge of the electron.
pi is 'pi', and h is plank's.  I'm not sure what eps_0... something
about the electrostatic attraction?

Are you saying that by reducing the mass, the orbitals of the electrons
are going to be larger?

I'm not completely sure how plank's constant enters into this.

If you say you are reducing the effect of an electronic charge by the
same percentage that you are reducing the mass, all should be good,
even if that means plank's constant has changed, which, I admit, I
was hoping to avoid... but when you mentioned that you created a
set of mechanics which worked perfectly well w/ all the constants
changing... hmm.

I'm thinking that perhaps these constants come out of evaluating
quantities such as the size of an atom.... in other words, perhaps
ZPF taming (inertial suppression & fundamental force suppression)
would end up modifying these so-called constants. But I don't know
enough about plank's to really make that assessment. Basically, what
I'm driving at here, is if you dropped the values of the fundamental
forces, would planck's constant also change as a result of that? If
so, then we've got a bit of a squirrely situation which might just
work mathematically, but which would make your average physics
doctorate have a cow.

On this assumption that this doesn't work, however:
> > so it seems that I'm going to have to relent and give up on this
> > idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes infeasible, and we're left
> > with FTL (which has already been done to death).
> 
> Almost all forms of FTL violate physics as we know it, too.  Don't
> take my insistence that inertia suppression doesn't work with known
> physics and chemistry to mean that I'd choke and barf if I saw it in a
> game.  I quite enjoyed the "Lensman" series, after all :)

Well, I'm sorta torn between this idea and Alcubierre's FTL (space
warping) idea, but we've discussed that one a few months ago, and
if I remember correctly, you made the contention that it leads to
wormholes and time travel, which we really don't want to deal with.
That's (a small) part of the reason I was hoping to use this inertial
suppression idea instead, but if it can't be explained in a way that
a physics major would say... "hmm... interesting... and I can't really
disprove it either... nor does it lead to ridiculous & exploitable
technologies" then maybe it shouldn't be used. I'm shooting for
something with a hard-SF feel. If we wanted soft-SF, we'd use
hyperspace and quasispace from starcon2.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:04:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:04:42 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F99EjKuZA11Fr9YawOu000146f1@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon says:

>Most hunters I know (unless they are out west where the
>terrain permits it) don't shoot past 100 yards.

I live in the West, and the 30/30 is virtually extinct as a sporting arm 
here.  Under 100 yard shot are very uncommon, and most guys are unsatisfied 
with their 300 yard rifles.   It seems like everybody is buying one of the 
new 300 Magnums, in the hope of going farther.

We tend to forget that the 30/30 in many places is all that is needded.

>Keep in mind that many bolt-action/cartridge combinations are
>capable of working far beyond the shooter's ability.  The
>shooter will probably never explore that limit.  Many hunters
>I have met are not capable of shooting up to what they carry,
>not to mention even a lowly .30-30.

Unfortunately, that is very true.  A 300 Mag does not make a guy a good 
shot; in fact, the opposite is usually the case.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:08:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:08:23 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F56z8kI063RA5C2duii00023931@hotmail.com>

Justin Kim said:

>	5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar
>helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target
>(titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle
>velocity of 715m/s.

Is that a FN pistol round?  Are they talking about using it in anything 
other than a pistol?

There was a lot of heartache going from .45 to 9m; can you imagine the howls 
if they went to a .22 pistol?

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:12:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <f8.19b3e031.29e72b62@aol.com>

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   Penis bones aside, the Space Axe(tm) stuff has been pretty interesting. 
Its got me wondering as to its actual performance characteristics.
   Lets take a look at axes:
   In MT, the Handaxe has Pen 6, Blocks 1, and does 3 Damage, while our 
friend the Battleaxe has Pen 8, Blocks 1, and also delivers 3 Damage.
   Now the Broadsword, for example, has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is less 
than 10, and I'm thinking our Space Axe(tm) should have a similar modifier of 
some sort; clearly seperating the thing's use by those in BD (or grotesquely 
jacked up with boinics and the like), and the relatively weak Everyone Else.
   I'm thinking the Space Axe has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is currently 
less than 20; making it act as a "normal" Battleaxe when weilded by 
non-BDers. This would mean our Ronco Space Axe(tm) would have Pen 16 when 
_properly_ used with BD and the like.
   Would this thing have a pick at the opposite end like a fireman's axe, or 
be double headed? I'm more for the pick end, myself. 
   One thing I liked from an old Challenge or Digest article on Low tech 
weapons, gave a reduction to the protection provided by "plate" (and, by my 
"logical" extension, Combat Armor and Battle Dress) against different 
weapons. Mostly the weapons sited were blunt ones; blades (and axes, IIRC) 
not receiving any armor mods.   
   Anyhow, one weapon, the Pick, reduced "Plate's" protection by -4 right 
off. That might be a handy little modifier to use when weilding the axe 
pick-end first :)
   I liked the idea of a rocket-assist on the downstroke as well, but am 
unable to figure any mods for _that_---maybe it gives the thing 4 Damage 
instead of 3? ;P
   Darn! Now I'm starting to wonder about all those creepy-looking chainsaw 
blades and the like I see on those Warhammer figures...
  -Ken Murphy-

 "When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer 
for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out 
of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God 
Almighty have mercy on you!" 

Legion of the Damned
Sven Hassel

   
   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Penis bones aside, the Space Axe(tm) stuff has been pretty interesting. Its got me wondering as to its actual performance characteristics.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Lets take a look at axes:
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;In MT, the Handaxe has Pen 6, Blocks 1, and does 3 Damage, while our friend the Battleaxe has Pen 8, Blocks 1, and also delivers 3 Damage.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Now the Broadsword, for example, has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is less than 10, and I'm thinking our Space Axe(tm) should have a similar modifier of some sort; clearly seperating the thing's use by those in BD (or grotesquely jacked up with boinics and the like), and the relatively weak Everyone Else.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I'm thinking the Space Axe has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is currently less than 20; making it act as a "normal" Battleaxe when weilded by non-BDers. This would mean our Ronco Space Axe(tm) would have Pen 16 when _properly_ used with BD and the like.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Would this thing have a pick at the opposite end like a fireman's axe, or be double headed? I'm more for the pick end, myself. 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;One thing I liked from an old Challenge or Digest article on Low tech weapons, gave a reduction to the protection provided by "plate" (and, by my "logical" extension, Combat Armor and Battle Dress) against different weapons. Mostly the weapons sited were blunt ones; blades (and axes, IIRC) not receiving any armor mods. &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Anyhow, one weapon, the Pick, reduced "Plate's" protection by -4 right off. That might be a handy little modifier to use when weilding the axe pick-end first :)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I liked the idea of a rocket-assist on the downstroke as well, but am unable to figure any mods for _that_---maybe it gives the thing 4 Damage instead of 3? ;P
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Darn! Now I'm starting to wonder about all those creepy-looking chainsaw blades and the like I see on those Warhammer figures...
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR>
<BR><P ALIGN=CENTER> "When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God Almighty have mercy on you!" 
<BR><P ALIGN=LEFT>
<BR>Legion of the Damned
<BR>Sven Hassel
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</P></P></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:14:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:14:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Adios Pirates!
Message-ID: <20020411181056.4612.qmail@earthlink.net>

And you thought Traveller pirates had it rough.

-- quote --

ABCNews.com

April 10 &#8212; They may not have patches over their eyes, parrots on their shoulders, and bottles of rum in their hands, but modern-day pirates are preying on the weak and the unwary.

From Borneo to Baja California, pirate attacks &#8212; up 400 percent in the last decade &#8212; are bolder and bloodier than ever. Like their legendary predecessors, they pose a serious threat to tankers, freighters and sailors across the world. And, according to some experts, many more attacks go unreported, especially in tourist spots. "The crimes are becoming more and more audacious," says Kim Petersen, a security expert who tracks pirates. "They're after whatever they can get."

Though no cruise ships have been attacked recently, the cruise lines are now so worried about piracy and hijacking that they've hired Gurkhas, Nepalese soldiers skilled with knives and swords, to protect their ships and passengers...

-- end quote --

The rest of the story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Downtown/2020/Downtown_020410_pirates_feature.html

-- 


David Smart



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:17:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:17:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Adios Pirates!
Message-ID: <20020411181134.84657.qmail@earthlink.net>

And you thought Traveller pirates had it rough.

-- quote --

ABCNews.com

April 10 &#8212; They may not have patches over their eyes, parrots on their shoulders, and bottles of rum in their hands, but modern-day pirates are preying on the weak and the unwary.

From Borneo to Baja California, pirate attacks &#8212; up 400 percent in the last decade &#8212; are bolder and bloodier than ever. Like their legendary predecessors, they pose a serious threat to tankers, freighters and sailors across the world. And, according to some experts, many more attacks go unreported, especially in tourist spots. "The crimes are becoming more and more audacious," says Kim Petersen, a security expert who tracks pirates. "They're after whatever they can get."

Though no cruise ships have been attacked recently, the cruise lines are now so worried about piracy and hijacking that they've hired Gurkhas, Nepalese soldiers skilled with knives and swords, to protect their ships and passengers...

-- end quote --

The rest of the story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Downtown/2020/Downtown_020410_pirates_feature.html

-- 


David Smart



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:19:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:19:33 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F56z8kI063RA5C2duii00023931@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 11:05 AM, Sam D at samdx@hotmail.com wrote:

> Justin Kim said:
> 
>> 5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar
>> helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target
>> (titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle
>> velocity of 715m/s.
> 
> Is that a FN pistol round?  Are they talking about using it in anything
> other than a pistol?

It's also the round for the FN P90.

It would be interesting to compare it's lethality to the 9mm ball round that
it would replace.  Energy is only a little more than the 9mm but the recoil
should be nothing.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:56:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Kim)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:56:25 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <p05101503b8db8ae2c7f1@[10.0.1.10]>

At 11:17 AM -0700 4/11/02, Tod Glenn wrote:

>It's also the round for the FN P90.
>
>It would be interesting to compare it's lethality to the 9mm ball round that
>it would replace.  Energy is only a little more than the 9mm but the recoil
>should be nothing.

	It's supposed to leave large nasty wound cavities in the 
target.  The website I referenced in my last post used to have a 
picture of the track the round left in a block of ballistic gelatin. 
I'm a complete novice, but it looked unpleasant to me :)

	The 5.7x28mm round was designed to replace the 9mm because of 
the 9mm's poor armor penetrating capabilities.

Justin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:09:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:09:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409141814.027d2810@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20411.112148.1F4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>>> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where 
>>> you were born.

Leoer McSan

I *don't* think so...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:10:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:10:59 2002
Subject: [TML] RealLife(tm) Battledress, next chapter
In-Reply-To: <204AD90A.F27541C2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20411.112029.5P7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Gee, you sent this on March 3, 1987. Slow X-boat?

In mail you write:

> This is kinda fun...
>
> http://www.aro.army.mil/soldiernano/
>
>
> David

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:12:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:12:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018393991.5137.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20411.112329.6T1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>> Keep in mind that while the *energy* of the pulse might only be a few
>> kilojoules the *power* level will be in the megawatt to gigawatt range.
>> Pulses of 1 millisecond or *shorter* will be wanted, both to avoid
>> problems with target movement, but also because the shorter duration
>> tends to increase the "shock" effect due to increased rapidity of
>> energy deposition.
>
> Think microsecond.  You want to create a supersonic shock effect.

That pushes the 1 kJ pulse to *gigawatt* power levels in the rifle. 
Even if it's only for a microsecond, a gigawatt is a lot of power.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:14:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:14:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D99A5C.382DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20411.120223.5O8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/9/02 11:41 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> 
>>> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).
>>> A 65 gram projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.
>> 
>> 65 grams is about 2.3 *ounces*. Ouch.
>> 
>> 4800 fps = ~1460 m/s.
>> 
>> Yeek! That's almost 70 kiloJoules muzzle energy!
>> 
>> Yeah, that'd make folks go splat.
>
> I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.
>
> 69,562 Joules of energy
> 1,130 joules of free recoil
>
> 25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)

Or the equivalent of 16.6 grams of TNT.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:19:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:19:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204111918.DVS00303@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

shadow@krypton.rain.com says
>
>That pushes the 1 kJ pulse to *gigawatt* power levels in the 
>rifle. Even if it's only for a microsecond, a gigawatt is a 
lot of power.
>
You should realize then the power of the current smokeless 
powder cartridges.  We're raising 5 to 8 kJ (depending on 
caliber) in seven-tenths of a millisecond.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:21:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:21:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F1848kFEs6x7Oq6q4sM0001f07c@hotmail.com>

From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>

     "Riiiiiight.  And the United States singlehandedly beat Hitler and
liberated Europe.  Just ask any contemporary 'Merkun.  (Okay, maybe the 
Limeys helped us out some, but not those dirty Reds, no sir.  And definitely 
not the French - all they know how to do is surrender.  What?  The Chinese?  
Were they *in* WW2?)"


Mr. St.Clair,

     Exactly my point, sir!  The Yanks no more singlehandedly beat Adolph 
than the Terran Confederation singlehandedly beat the Ziru Sirka.
     In the center, the Vilani were engaged in realpolitik factional games 
amongst themselves, complete with "outie" mercs and personal armies.  Along 
the coreward frontier, the Vargr were sniffing about, some recruited and 
used for internal ZS power politics and others still feral and rading 
willy-nilly.  And, scattered throughout the empire, were dozens of restless 
minor races, chafing at the Vilani collar around their collective necks and 
waiting for the slightest provocation to rebel.
     The Terrans had help, and lots of it.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:38:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:38:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204111937.DVT02415@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
>
>     "Riiiiiight.  And the United States singlehandedly beat 
>Hitler and liberated Europe. 

UK, very helpful
USSR, extremely helpful
Chinese, yes very
in fact, it was "world war" for a reason.  It took half the 
world to defeat the Axis.

It could also be argued that without the United States, the 
Germans would have won the war.  So no one could do the whole 
job - it had to be done together.

The French -- for the ones that actually helped, were only a 
distraction to keep Germans occupied elsewhere.  Many French 
were wholehearted collaborators.  They don't want to mention 
this -- in fact, "everyone" was in the Maquis.  They gladly 
handed over 1 million Jews, Socialists, homosexuals, and 
other "undesireables" over to the Germans.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:56:08 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200
References: <F97SgeR4UIS42NXHwGr0001bbad@hotmail.com> <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020411135544.A25603@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle 
> you like the look of.

Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
_ugly_:-(

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Mark Twain famously noted that those who are interested in the law or
sausage should never watch either made.  In the years since he made the
remark, there has been considerable reform in sausage making.
                                          --Dennis E. Powell

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:58:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:58:12 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <200204111525.DVL00842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:25:35AM -0400
References: <200204111525.DVL00842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020411135704.B25603@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:25:35AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> A good sling is also essential.  Many like the Ching Sling, 
> but I am still fond of the leather military two-piece.  Stay 
> slung up with this, and you can shoot standing to 100 yards 
> with great accuracy.

I've never actually figured out how to use a sling...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Verbogeny is one of the pleasurettes of a creatific thinkerizer.
                                               --Peter da Silva

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
>food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
>parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
>they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
>                --Socrates, c.  5th century BC

"  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
   abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
   man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
   end of the world is fast approaching."
                          - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:11:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:11:12 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204112010.g3BKAVh12588@mailbag.com>

"Sam D" 
> John T. Kwon says:
> 
> >Most hunters I know (unless they are out west where the
> >terrain permits it) don't shoot past 100 yards.
> 
> I live in the West, and the 30/30 is virtually extinct as a sporting arm 
> here.  Under 100 yard shot are very uncommon, and most guys are unsatisfied 
> with their 300 yard rifles.   It seems like everybody is buying one of the 
> new 300 Magnums, in the hope of going farther.



By the same token, I live in Wisconsin. 100 yards? Try 100 feet real often. 

All I need for any hunting I do is my old Ithica 12 Gauge pump: Slugs for deer 
and (steel) shot for birds. I also have a flintlock in .50", but that's for fun 
not for hunting. I may someday get a .308 for a hunting rifle, but honestly 
there's nothing I want to hunt that I would need anything more than that 12.

Plus, IMHO, it's the best home defense weapon available. 

William




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204112013.DVT07701@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>I've never actually figured out how to use a sling...

Get a book on three-position shooting.  There will be a 
section on using the sling.  Make sure that you buy 
a "proper" two-piece leather sling (it will set you back more 
than the cheap nylon straps that you see on the shelf).

Once you "sling up" properly, you will be surprised at the 
level of stability you can achieve.  As long as its not too 
tight, you can walk around slung up like this.  

ObTrav:  This, and the Ching Sling, are the only "sling" 
types that I will give a +DM for accuracy.  Those 
other "things" are just fancy padded carrying straps.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:46:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:46:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>; from shadow@krypton.rain.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:15:43PM -0800
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net> <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020411144523.A25786@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:15:43PM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> "  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
>    abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
>    man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
>    end of the world is fast approaching."
>                           - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC

.sig slurped...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
'Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US
 companies like Microsoft.'                         --some AOLer
'To this end we dedicate ourselves...'                     --Don

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:47:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:47:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
References: <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CB5F5F1.3050200@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
> 
> 
>>Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
>>food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
>>parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
>>they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
>>               --Socrates, c.  5th century BC
> 
> 
> "  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
>    abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
>    man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
>    end of the world is fast approaching."
>                           - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC
> 

Some of the pictures in the caves in Lascaux express the same things, 
I'll bet.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 15:25:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 14:25:08 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
parts of the debate to TML chat?

Or else I'll begin posting socialist and communist propaganda...

(not a serious threat, but about as relevant)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 15:29:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 11 14:29:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F247Acvgn29MhIydI8o0001bb2c@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "The French -- for the ones that actually helped, were only a
distraction to keep Germans occupied elsewhere.  Many French were 
wholehearted collaborators.  They don't want to mention this -- in fact, 
"everyone" was in the Maquis.  They gladly handed over 1 million Jews, 
Socialists, homosexuals, and other "undesireables" over to the Germans."


Mr. Kwon,

     The French wheat and meat fed the Nazi war machine.  French hands and 
concrete built the Atlantic Wall and the submarine pens.  French rails 
shipped men and materials without delay or hindrance.
     All of Holland worked for their resistance, the Germans had a devil of 
time finding collaborators there.  The Danes, from the King on down, wore 
the yellow Star of David and helped their Jews escape to Sweden.  Yugoslavia 
was a hardship post with constant fighting.  The Czechs killed the Nazi 
gauleiters assigned there.  Norway meant you had to live in armed camps and 
the Eastern Front was litle more than a death sentence, but France...  
France was where you got posted if you were a good little Nazi!

Q:  Why do the French plant trees along the side of the road?
A:  So the Germans can march in the shade.

ObTrav - So, from the Vilani point of view, who were the "French" to the 
Terran's "Nazis" during the Interstellar Wars?  The Vegans?  Some other 
human minor race?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 15:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 14:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
Message-ID: <200204112147.DVX03585@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

There's the 100d limit.  Given.

Is there not some safety standoff distance from one jump 
drive to another?  And what would that distance be?  Could 
you make someone misjump (along with yourself)?

I've read in the archive about "grav" generators to bump 
people out of hyperspace, and jump projectors to throw people 
into the middle of nowhere.

But on a simpler level, I feel that one jump field powering 
through a jump would interfere with another, at least at the 
point of departure.  Thoughts?
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:20:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:20:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020411160312.A6708@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020412081911.B9083@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> Why does h influence the size of the atom?

The size of the atom depends upon the shape of the wavefunction of the
electrons in their ground state.  Roughly speaking, the probability of
finding an electron at a given distance from the atom starts to drop
off sharply at a distance determined by the relations of quantum
mechanics.  Those relation involve h.


> Also, how do we know that h is a fundamental constant and not
> dependant on the factors we might be changing (i.e. fundamental
> forces) with the intertial suppression scheme?

We don't.  The only problem is that if you change h (and everything
associated with it) to fit the requirement that people remain alive,
you get the result that nothing changes at all, including how much
acceleration the ship can take or how much power it takes to
accelerate it.


> I presume m_e is mass of electron and q_e is charge of the electron.
> pi is 'pi', and h is plank's.  I'm not sure what eps_0... something
> about the electrostatic attraction?

Yes; the electrostatic attractive force between two charges is
proportional to 1/(4 pi eps_0).  It is usually written as a greek
epsilon symbol with a subscript 0, but that's not possible in ASCII.


> Are you saying that by reducing the mass, the orbitals of the electrons
> are going to be larger?

If you don't change Planck's constant, yes.  The equation governing
the wavefunction of the electron (or any other thing, for that matter)
has a factor of (h^2 / 2 m) in it.  So the mass affects the shape.  It
turns out that if you reduce the mass and energy levels by a factor of
100, the distances increase by a factor of 100^2.


> Basically, what I'm driving at here, is if you dropped the values of
> the fundamental forces, would planck's constant also change as a
> result of that?

It appears not.  Planck's constant seems to be more fundamental than
the strengths of various forces.


> Well, I'm sorta torn between this idea and Alcubierre's FTL (space
> warping) idea, but we've discussed that one a few months ago, and
> if I remember correctly, you made the contention that it leads to
> wormholes and time travel, which we really don't want to deal with.

;^>  I can be a party-pooper, can't I?

Though I actually like the idea of FTL causality consequences.

Besides, wormholes probably automatically prevent causality paradoxes;
if they approach a configuration in which a closed timelike path
exists, zero-interval feedback may well destroy the wormholes involved
before you actually get any time travel effects.  This is a serious
conjecture in physics.  It also opens up interesting possibilities in
the game universe -- someone might do this deliberately for political
or military reasons.


> I'm shooting for something with a hard-SF feel.

You can still have FTL or inertial suppression with a hard-SF feel,
you just need to consider the consequences that physics geeks like me
are going to pick up, or alternatively try not go into details at all.
A rule of thumb is that you're allowed one big violation of
physics-as-we-know-it so long as you at least try to predict some of
the side effects.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:27:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:27:11 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>; from jenry023@student.liu.se on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:24:28PM +0200
References: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020411162610.A25877@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:24:28PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>
> Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> parts of the debate to TML chat?

Gun debate?  Do you mean the discussion of weapons useful for
killing/stopping roughly man-size targets?  Seems pretty on-topic to
me...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Asking a girl out is like finding sqrt(pi) using roman numerals.  --unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:30:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:30:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <200204112147.DVX03585@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411182555.01e801d0@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:47 PM 4/11/2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Is there not some safety standoff distance from one jump
>drive to another?  And what would that distance be?

My initial reaction is to say "100 diameters", or in this case, 100 ship 
lengths.  Beyond that distance, the jump field definitely won't be a 
problem.  Between 100 and 10 ship lengths, you've got possible problems, 
and under 10 ship lengths is definitely bad news.

Of course, the danger in this case is to both ships.  I would determine the 
result separately for each ship involved - so that one ship may not jump, 
or could misjump, or be destroyed, while the other ship has a different 
fate.  So you might make the other ship misjump (or you may not), but 
you're just as likely to misjump yourself.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:32:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:32:10 2002
Subject: [TML] FFS2 penetration
Message-ID: <B8DB5CBD.3972C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all.  How does one calculate penetration according FFS2 for small
arm?


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:36:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:36:10 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <200204112235.DVZ01545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>Gun debate?  Do you mean the discussion of weapons useful for
>killing/stopping roughly man-size targets?  Seems pretty on-
>topic to me...
>

Well, technically we could take it to tml-guntech.  We 
already have a considerable amount of discussion over there 
about weapons (what is a snub pistol anyway - go to tml-
guntech and find out..)

I try to have an ObTrav. Should I post my version of the 
combat system on tml or tml-guntech?
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:38:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:38:49 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155951.01dc24b0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8DB5E1A.39732%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 1:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Tod, what was the free recoil of that elephant rifle again?  For
> comparison.  I found your earlier calculations on the M1, M16, and gauss
> rifle, which were two orders of magnitude lower and then some compared to
> the above 65 gram bullet.
> 
> Hm, I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and plug in numbers for known
> weapons and science fiction weapons from time to time.  Then post on a Web
> site so all interested parties can reference it from time to time.

See my calculator at http://www.travellercentral.com

follow the links to House Rules : Projectile Weapons

(or go straight to http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/ke.html)

I just added penetration for TNE.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:41:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:41:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
Message-ID: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Derek Wildstar says
<snip derek's take on adjacent ships activating their 
hyperdrive>

That sounds pretty good. It means, however, that ships might 
have a minimum separation, which affects fleet actions.

Would we also have another problem a la B5? Starting one jump 
field within another?
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:43:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:43:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DB5EB6.39733%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 5:14 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> My first choice would probably be a .375 H&H. Much though I admire
> Weatherbys they cost too much and are generally over-powered if you're
> using solids - they'd tend to horribly over-penetrate anything but the
> heaviest game. With expansive bullets I'd drop to a .338 Winchester or
> .340 Weatherby unless in Africa, in which case the .375's would be the
> way to go, IMO. .416s and .458/.460s are good vs buffs, elephants, etc.
> but aren't long-range rounds, so you'd need a second rifle for those
> 300-500 yard shots on eland, etc.

Another classic 'smallbore'.  The only problem with the .375 H&H and rounds
based on it is that it requires a magnum length action. One of my alltime
favorites.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411183848.0188fa70@192.168.0.1>

Loren had mentioned a Traveller specific version of the GURPS character 
generation software was being considered.

Is this project a go?  If so, when would it see the light of day?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
           http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:51:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:51:15 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F107XkF81yvoXFMxmyh000181e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:41, Sam D wrote:

> I think this is a very good point.  Whether you are a hunter, acting
> in self defense, a cop or a soldier, your objective should be the
> same.  Despite occassional talk that hunters are content to let a
> wounded deer slip away or are very concerned about damaging too much
> meat, my experience is just the opposite. Most of the hunters I
> know, if an animal does not drop like a sack of bricks, immediately
> start thinking about practicing more or getting a more powerful
> rifle.  In fact, hunters and cops seem to take "stopping power" much
> more seriously than the military. 

To let an animal get away to die slowly over the course of hours or 
days is IMO horribly cruel, and utterly unsportsmanlike. I've had many 
arguments with people over goat culling because of this. For some years 
back in the 90s it was common 'sport' for a couple of guys to drive out 
to the back of a farm with goat problems (getting the owner's 
permission first, of course) and shoot up the goats with semi-auto 
rifles. The most common choices were SKS carbines or semi-auto only 
AK's. It was also common for many to simply fire into a mod of goats 
and then let the survivors wander off, gut shot or with broken legs. 
When I pointed out that this was cruel and that they'd be upset if I 
were to do this to a dog or a deer they'd look blank and say "but 
they're only goats." Then they'd wonder why I wouldn't associate with 
them any more.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:53:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:53:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <200204112251.DVZ03066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>Loren had mentioned a Traveller specific version of the 
>GURPS character generation software was being considered.
>
I've got most of the GURPS material, but not GT.  (Ultra 
Tech, Space, but not GT).  

I could get a copy of GT and try my hand at it.  Are there a 
lot of variations from the basic GURPS?  It wouldn't take too 
long to do.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:50:50AM +1200
References: <F107XkF81yvoXFMxmyh000181e3@hotmail.com> <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020411170142.A26003@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:50:50AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> To let an animal get away to die slowly over the course of hours or 
> days is IMO horribly cruel, and utterly unsportsmanlike.

Agreed but...

> When I pointed out that this was cruel and that they'd be upset if I 
> were to do this to a dog or a deer they'd look blank and say "but 
> they're only goats."

In NZ are goats viewed simpy as nuisance animals, or as something
more?  I wouldn't feel overly bad about mortally a shark, snake, wolf
or coyote and leaving it to die, but I'd never do the same for a deer,
duck or other animal.

How much of this is based on perception, I wonder?  The animals I
don't care about I either hate (sharks and snakes) or consider
varmints and pests (wolves & coyotes), whereas the ones I do are ones
I respect.

That said, I cannot see goats as a `nasty' animal (like the feral ones
I mentioned).  Nuisances, but no more than that.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ubi non accusator, ibi non judex.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:04:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
In-Reply-To: <200204112251.DVZ03066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:51:24PM -0400
References: <200204112251.DVZ03066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020411170334.B26003@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:51:24PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> I could get a copy of GT and try my hand at it.  Are there a lot of
> variations from the basic GURPS?  It wouldn't take too long to do.

Probably the most work would be inputting the lists of skills &c.
You'll want to rewrite (not simply paraphrase) the skill descriptions,
as they are copyrighted.  There is a process to get permission to use
them, but I typically prefer that my work be as free as possible of
encumbrances.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"Oh bother," said the Borg, "We've assimilated Pooh."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:06:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:06:11 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 17:24, Jens Rydholm wrote:

> Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> parts of the debate to TML chat?
> 
> Or else I'll begin posting socialist and communist propaganda...
> 
> (not a serious threat, but about as relevant)

But how can guns not be relevant to Traveller? :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:07:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:07:40 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <F99548IlvMTkL01NspD000142b4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6BF68.28920.307BF2@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:54, Sam D wrote:

> You are better off getting a cheap rifle and a more expensive scope.
>  Unless you are a very skilled rifleman, a decent scope (either 4x,
> 2-7 or 3-9) is a great asset.  Nice binocs are also important. 

Also with a scope it's a good idea to get one in which the objective 
lens size divided by the power (for a vari-power about mid-range will 
do for this) is 7mm or more. Less than this and the light gathering 
capacity isn't the best, no matter how clear the optics, and the 
scope's utility will drop off quickly in poor light conditions. Thus 
4x32 is adequate, 4x40 is very nice (though more than 8-10mm is more 
than your eye can use) and 6x32 not the best.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:10:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:10:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F70SDx1kLwxTQTYkWSz00001108@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6C056.18523.341AE7@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 15:31, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Yeah, I've got to think this over even more.  To my mind, minor
> race rebellions aided and abetted by Terran infiltrators should be a
> big part of the Interstellar Wars.  There would have been uprisings
> and sabotage a sector or so "behind" the fighting front and the
> minor race allies providing the lower-TL cannon fodder for the
> Alliance's offensives. 

That would certainly make sense once things got going (say after IW4 or 
thereabouts).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:11:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:11:44 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F56z8kI063RA5C2duii00023931@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6C056.6241.341BB4@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 18:05, Sam D wrote:

> Justin Kim said:
> 
> >	5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar
> >helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target
> >(titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle
> >velocity of 715m/s.
> 
> Is that a FN pistol round?  Are they talking about using it in anything 
> other than a pistol?
> 
> There was a lot of heartache going from .45 to 9m; can you imagine the howls 
> if they went to a .22 pistol?

No, it's for their personal defence weapon, the P90. Basically it's a 
late 1990s take on the SMG, but using a cut down rifle round rather 
than a pistol round, so it has a much better effective range than a 
normal SMG. They're the toys being used in the later seasons of 
Stargate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <p05101503b8db8ae2c7f1@[10.0.1.10]>
References: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6C0AF.31055.357841@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:55, Justin Kim wrote:

> 	It's supposed to leave large nasty wound cavities in the 
> target.  The website I referenced in my last post used to have a 
> picture of the track the round left in a block of ballistic gelatin. 
> I'm a complete novice, but it looked unpleasant to me :)
> 
> 	The 5.7x28mm round was designed to replace the 9mm because of 
> the 9mm's poor armor penetrating capabilities.

However most gun-nuts I know have come to the conclusion that it's 
better than a pistol, but nothing near as good as the 5.56x45mm at just 
about anything, especially wounding.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:16:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:16:52 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
In-Reply-To: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DB66BD.3974E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 5:36 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> I'm trying to make up my mind between the .375 and the .338.
> Since I'm in N. America, it may be the .338.

For NA, .338 is going to be fine, unless you're in Alaska and shooting moose
and polar bear.  Even then, you could probably manage alright.

Given you predilection for sniping, I'm surprised you didn't mention the
.338 Lapua.
> 
> The situations that Traveller characters find themselves in
> are rarely more than a few opponents, and most are armed
> (depending on the GM, of course) with pistols and short range
> weapons.  In one past campaign, I did rather well with a
> single-shot falling block rifle in .375 H&H.  I was playing a
> PH, and this was my "walking about" rifle.  I was infamous
> for killing three other player characters by shooting down
> their custom air raft (first shot hit the driver through the
> front, the second shot disabled the powerplant and the other
> two plummeted to their deaths).
> 
> If you also consider that Traveller gun combat is at about
> the same range as a Cape Buffalo encounter, and you're
> probably going to live for about as many shots (two, maybe
> three), then I think that whatever makes a good Cape Buffalo
> weapon might make a good Traveller combat weapon.
> 
> Let's see.  We'll make it .416 Remington, since we can still
> get Speer tungsten core solids.
> 
> The rifle should be a 4-shot controlled-feed pre-64
> Winchester action (with fixed ejector).  Barrel length should
> be 22 inches, and we'll go with a muzzle brake.  The stock
> should be optimized for firing on your hind legs, and we'll
> put a Trijicon Reflex sight on top, with express sights just
> in case that gets broken.

The new Winchester 'Classic' has controlled feed, and IIRC a fixed ejector.
But go first class and get one of Pete Grissel's Dakotas.  I think I pick a
ghost ring over express sights for adventuring.  Maybe 1x LER scope mounted
scout-like.
> 
> A PH should be able to get two or three quick aimed shots off
> with something like this.  I haven't seen many Traveller-
> style combats last more than a few combat rounds. And you'll
> only have to hit another human *once* with something like
> this.  Tod might make it a .458, though.

Maybe .470NE in a Searcy double rifle.  Two *really* quick shots, and reload
speed is not too bad if you practice.  Of course you have to have the gun
regulated for the planet and area your on.

For Armored targets, there always the .577NE in the double gun.
> 
> Get yourself a pouch that holds 20 rounds, maybe keep 40
> rounds in your pack.  More than enough for most Traveller
> adventures.


More numbers, 'cause it's more gearhead like:
(Stats are for TNE - FFS.  Loads are from A-Square's "Any Shot You Want")

Weapon  KE      RE  Dam   Recoil    Pen
.223    1801    4   3       3       1-Nil
.308    3536    19  4       4       2-3-Nil
.338    5526    50  6       6       2-4-6
.375    6097    64  6       6       2-4-6
.416    7232    80  6       6       2-4-6
.458    7090    87  6       6       2-4-6
.460    9780   146  7       7       2-4-6
.577NE  9042   167  6       6       2-4-6
.577TR  13188  197  8       7       2-3-4
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:19:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:19:15 2002
Subject: [TML] News from Delphi
References: <20020410143005.F2EB127AB3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB61A54.E69EDB1@together.net>

> From: "Graham Donald" <gndonald@hotmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:11:56 +0800
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I was wondering how is the Delphi history project going, I looked at their
> site, but it hasn't been updated since 2000.
> 

	I'm not sure of which site you are looking at, but the Delphi project
continues. The main project board is on JTAS (http://jtas.sjgames.com/
), become a subscriber if you are not already. 
	February 5th issue of JTAS contains the Delphi Foundation document, an
article describing the history, including a set of maps showing the
historical progression of colonization in the sector, a description of
some of the nobility, and a few of the more predominate groups. 

	The landgrab has begun, with a few worlds claimed and more ideas tossed
around. In addition to the foundation document, I also have a summary of
the discussions up to the point of the the writing of the foundation
document. 

	So, if you'd like to do a landgrab, but without having explain 20 years
of canon, or would like a more settled sector to play in come on over to
Delphi. The nice, safe core of the Imperium. 
-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:21:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:21:11 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <20020411135544.A25603@4dv.net>
References: <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200
Message-ID: <3CB6C311.15964.3EC7C1@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 13:55, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > 
> > Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle 
> > you like the look of.
> 
> Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
> _ugly_:-(

I rather like Ruger's line of stainless and synthetics. The almost 
skeletal green stocks look quite cool, IMO.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:30:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:30:10 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20020411170142.A26003@4dv.net>
References: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:50:50AM +1200
Message-ID: <3CB6C54B.24759.4779CF@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 17:01, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> > When I pointed out that this was cruel and that they'd be upset if I 
> > were to do this to a dog or a deer they'd look blank and say "but 
> > they're only goats."
> 
> In NZ are goats viewed simpy as nuisance animals, or as something
> more?  I wouldn't feel overly bad about mortally a shark, snake, wolf
> or coyote and leaving it to die, but I'd never do the same for a deer,
> duck or other animal.

A serious nuisance - feral goats damage farmland near bush, and do a 
_lot_ of damage to native bush, as do opossums and wasps - all imports. 
Deer move from vermin to game and back again, depending on how many 
there are and on politics.
 
> How much of this is based on perception, I wonder?  The animals I
> don't care about I either hate (sharks and snakes) or consider
> varmints and pests (wolves & coyotes), whereas the ones I do are ones
> I respect.
> 
> That said, I cannot see goats as a `nasty' animal (like the feral ones
> I mentioned).  Nuisances, but no more than that.

Whereas I don't see any reason why the morality of leaving animals to 
suffer should depend on their 'pleasantness' or the worthiness as game.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:31:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:31:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DB5EB6.39733%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB6C54B.322.477957@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 15:39, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Another classic 'smallbore'.  The only problem with the .375 H&H and
> rounds based on it is that it requires a magnum length action. One of
> my alltime favorites. 

I've never been that impressed by arguments for this round or that 
round based on action length. IME the speed of an action has more to do 
with it's overall design than it's length, and 'short stroking' occurs 
when people get cute and try to speed their reload up by not drawing 
the bolt all the way to the rear. The fastest reliable reload, 
regardless of action length, is to draw the bolt back until it stops, 
than push forward and down in one smooth motion. It's that simple.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:34:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:34:11 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <3CB6C311.15964.3EC7C1@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DB6B04.39757%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 4:20 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

>> 
>> Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
>> _ugly_:-(
> 
> I rather like Ruger's line of stainless and synthetics. The almost
> skeletal green stocks look quite cool, IMO.

I go all over the place.  I like the look of a well made synthetic stock.
Not the plastic injection-molded ones, but the laminated  ones like H-S
Precision, Griffen and Bell and the like.

Nothing beats wood for looks though.  I have several nice pieces of walnut,
one Bubinga and one Cocobolo waiting to be inletted.  Cocobolo is very
beautiful, heavy, tough and expensive.  I wanted to bring the weight of my
.458 up and decided on a dense wood rather than a mercury recoil reducer.
The wood is georgeous.  Now to wait a year or two so it dries properly.

If things gel, my wife we get sent to the international law enforcement
academy in Botswana. If that happens, you know where I'll be. :)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:37:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:37:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
References: <200204111918.DVS00303@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d601c1e1b1$c48e36c0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Niches


> shadow@krypton.rain.com says
> >
> >That pushes the 1 kJ pulse to *gigawatt* power levels in the 
> >rifle. Even if it's only for a microsecond, a gigawatt is a 
> lot of power.
> >
> You should realize then the power of the current smokeless 
> powder cartridges.  We're raising 5 to 8 kJ (depending on 
> caliber) in seven-tenths of a millisecond.

5kJ in 0.0007s =>   7.14 MW
8kJ in 0.0007s => 11.43 MW

So you have about 100 times less power...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:00:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:00:15 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <B8DB6B04.39757%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB6C311.15964.3EC7C1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB6CC2B.3222.6256C7@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 16:32, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Nothing beats wood for looks though.  I have several nice pieces of walnut,
> one Bubinga and one Cocobolo waiting to be inletted.  Cocobolo is very
> beautiful, heavy, tough and expensive.  I wanted to bring the weight of my
> .458 up and decided on a dense wood rather than a mercury recoil reducer.
> The wood is georgeous.  Now to wait a year or two so it dries properly.

My father has a Swedish Mauser from 1899, and it has the most amazing 
tiger-stripe stock. The first thing we said when we saw it was "Now 
don't you wish you could put that stock on the .30-06?"
 
> If things gel, my wife we get sent to the international law enforcement
> academy in Botswana. If that happens, you know where I'll be. :)

Sitting at home minding the kids, of course.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:01:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:01:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <00d601c1e1b1$c48e36c0$52200050@matt>
References: <200204111918.DVS00303@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <00d601c1e1b1$c48e36c0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020412095904.A9693@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> 8kJ in 0.0007s => 11.43 MW
> 
> So you have about 100 times less power...

The best figures I've seen require about 20 MW for a laser weapon.  1
kJ in a microsecond is bad because you only get a surface explosion,
no penetration at all.  1 kJ in 100 pulses of about half a microsecond
each is much better.

Besides, I've personally built a laser that produces a pulse with a
power of about a gigawatt.  If properly made, it could fit into pistol
size.  Peak power means nothing.  Pulse *energies* and *sustained*
power are what makes weapon lasers difficult to build.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:04:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:04:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB6C54B.322.477957@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DB71E0.3977B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 4:30 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> I've never been that impressed by arguments for this round or that
> round based on action length. IME the speed of an action has more to do
> with it's overall design than it's length, and 'short stroking' occurs
> when people get cute and try to speed their reload up by not drawing
> the bolt all the way to the rear. The fastest reliable reload,
> regardless of action length, is to draw the bolt back until it stops,
> than push forward and down in one smooth motion. It's that simple.

It has more to do with the scarcity of magnum length actions that are
suitable for dangerous game.  Thankfully, Winchester has brought out the
'classic' action and some good stuff is coming in from Brno.  Sorry,
Remington just doesn't cut it and I don't care for Ruger.  That diagonal
screw is worthless.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:10:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:10:10 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB6C54B.24759.4779CF@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:30:19AM +1200
References: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>; <20020411170142.A26003@4dv.net> <3CB6C54B.24759.4779CF@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020411180903.A26285@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:30:19AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Whereas I don't see any reason why the morality of leaving animals to 
> suffer should depend on their 'pleasantness' or the worthiness as game.

I should point out that I'd not deliberately mis-hit the animals on my
hate-list, or even leave them to suffer; it's just that I wouldn't
track 'em down to deliver a mercy shot, whereas I would try to for the
better animals.  Rapid-firing into a herd of goats is right out.
About the only animals I'd even consider that about are sharks.  I
hate sharks.  And even then I'd poss. not condone it.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I can see an opening for the Four Lusers of the Apocalypse: `I didn't
change anything'; `My e-mail doesn't work';  `I can't print' and `Is the
network broken?'                                          --Paul McAuley

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:22:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:22:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DB71E0.3977B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB6C54B.322.477957@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB6D156.3272.7687E7@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 17:01, Tod Glenn wrote:

> It has more to do with the scarcity of magnum length actions that are
> suitable for dangerous game.  Thankfully, Winchester has brought out the
> 'classic' action and some good stuff is coming in from Brno.  Sorry,
> Remington just doesn't cut it and I don't care for Ruger.  That diagonal
> screw is worthless.

I've liked all the Ruger's I've handled, and not because of the screw, 
either. They've pointed fairly well, had decent triggers (for an out-of-
the-box rifle in their price range) and smooth actions. They also look 
pretty good to me (YMMV) and were accurate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:47:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:47:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
In-Reply-To: <4b.1b7f2094.29e70e82@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411172243.009f1c90@mindspring.com>

--=====================_9693781==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 12:06 PM 4/11/02 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet
>cover.  In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.
>
>   And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the first 
> place? The Lt. maybe? lol!

No, it was just part of the 3-color woodland cammo on the helmet 
cover.  Completely random.  But useful at night.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
--=====================_9693781==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 12:06 PM 4/11/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite><font face="arial" size=2>From:
Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt; <br><br>
I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet
<br>
cover.&nbsp; In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar. <br><br>
&nbsp; And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the
first place? The Lt. maybe? lol! </font></blockquote><br>
No, it was just part of the 3-color woodland cammo on the helmet
cover.&nbsp; Completely random.&nbsp; But useful at night.<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="arial" size=2>--<br><br>
Douglas E. Berry&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
gridlore@mindspring.com<br>
<a href="http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html" eudora="autourl">http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.</a><a href="http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html" eudora="autourl">html<br>
</a><a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/" eudora="autourl">http://</a>www.livejournal<a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/" eudora="autourl">.com/users/gridlore/</a><br><br>
&quot;Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<br>
sounds like they're snoring.&quot; - Harvey Danger</font></html>

--=====================_9693781==_.ALT--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:48:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:48:39 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020411162610.A25877@4dv.net>
References: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411172651.009f1230@mindspring.com>

At 04:26 PM 4/11/02 -0600, you wrote:
>On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:24:28PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> >
> > Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> > parts of the debate to TML chat?
>
>Gun debate?  Do you mean the discussion of weapons useful for
>killing/stopping roughly man-size targets?  Seems pretty on-topic to
>me...

Maybe at first, but it has long past the point where there is any 
game-usable material.

I agree, either private mail or TML-chat.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:51:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:51:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <200204120047.DWD04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>Probably the most work would be inputting the lists of 
>skills &c. You'll want to rewrite (not simply paraphrase) 
>the skill descriptions, as they are copyrighted.  There is a 
>process to get permission to use them, but I typically 
>prefer that my work be as free as possible of
>encumbrances.
>

I wouldn't mind the following: I write it exactly to the 
specs.  We get approval for a time-limited playtest - they 
say it's good, and they distribute it.  If they make 
anything,  I get a piece.  If it's for free, then I get my 
name on the package.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:06:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:06:10 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
Message-ID: <200204120105.DWD07544@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Given you predilection for sniping, I'm surprised you didn't 
>mention the .338 Lapua.

In the Sako rifle?  Probably.  But then again, I'm trying to 
get into a different niche.  Ever try to find the .338 Lapua 
at the store? Oh, that's right, you're in Oregon...

The main reason I handload is that Maryland State Law has 
funny rules - you can't sell the latest types of ammunition 
that a manufacturer produces without "approval" (there is a 
similar thing for models of handgun - new models of handgun 
are very rarely approved for sale - it took four years for 
the Encore to appear in Maryland).

>But go first class and get one of Pete Grissel's Dakotas.  I 
>think I pick a ghost ring over express sights for 
>adventuring.  Maybe 1x LER scope mounted
>scout-like.

I can get a Dakota action in the white from Brownell's and 
put the thing together myself.  Then I could send it out to 
get blued.  I'm not yet willing to do the really dirty work 
like bluing.

Ah, now I have it.  By your charts, the .338 is a good 
compromise. Did they ever make the Valmet 412 in .338?  It's 
been discontinued, but it makes a fast two shots.

You could, when it was sold, get extra barrel combinations 
for the same receiver.  So I could get a "shorty" double-12, 
loaded with SCIMTR for shipboard use.  Get the double .338 
for outside work.  And double .460 for pesky critters.

It's too bad the Krag action isn't that strong.  I really 
like that ability to top off the magazine without opening the 
weapon.

If I was playing in your campaign, I think I would be a PH, 
and would probably have a brace of doubles as per above.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:12:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:12:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Matthew Bond" says
<snip laser power>

I think I did a laser calculation on tml-guntech
which has a 6.8kJ laser in 0.7 milliseconds (not 
microseconds) that is more than capable of penetrating 30cm 
of flesh.  The assumption was made that I would be vaporizing 
a column of water, in 0.7 milliseconds, and that the target 
spot would be 1mm x 1mm.  We came up with 1000 times the 
power required to do the minimum vaporization and it came
out to 6.8 kJ.

So, it's the same as the .338.

Wavelength is 1.3nm, using a overtone deuterium flouride 
laser.  
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
In-Reply-To: <200204120105.DWD07544@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6DDB7.14961.A6E275@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 21:05, John T. Kwon wrote:

> It's too bad the Krag action isn't that strong.  I really 
> like that ability to top off the magazine without opening the 
> weapon.

How about a weapon like the Lee-Enfields in which there was a cut-off 
over the magazine. You engaged the cut-off so that the rounds could be 
fed from the magazine and loaded shots individually when you weren't i 
a hurry. When the sh*t went everywhere you'd disengage the cut-off and 
have a full magazine available.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:46:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:46:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Written by the Victors (was: Matters of Will)
In-Reply-To: <20020412005325.F414D27A9A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020411183439.00a4cec0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 19:20:27, "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> 
wrote:

>     The Terrans had help, and lots of it.

Not to mention their microscopic buddies - "the humblest creatures which 
God, in His wisdom, placed upon the Earth."  :)

But bacteria and minor races don't edit library data, and so, a thousand 
years and change later, the popular history has it that the Brave and 
Ingenious Terrans somehow managed to hold out for centuries against the 
full might of the Empire, then miraculously sweep over it to throw down the 
hated Vilani Overlords in mere decades.  (And then promptly fumbled the 
ball themselves, but the Solomani don't like to talk about that part.)

The academics know better, of course, but who ever listens to crazy old 
scholars?  Aside from down-on-their-luck free trader crews, that is.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:59:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:59:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the
 list)
In-Reply-To: <200204120047.DWD04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411215441.02284008@192.168.0.1>

At 08:47 PM 4/11/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>"Robert A. Uhl" says
> >Probably the most work would be inputting the lists of
> >skills &c. You'll want to rewrite (not simply paraphrase)
> >the skill descriptions, as they are copyrighted.  There is a
> >process to get permission to use them, but I typically
> >prefer that my work be as free as possible of
> >encumbrances.
>I wouldn't mind the following: I write it exactly to the
>specs.  We get approval for a time-limited playtest - they
>say it's good, and they distribute it.  If they make
>anything,  I get a piece.  If it's for free, then I get my
>name on the package.

Why reinvent the wheel here?
SJG already has a very nice character creation program (ok, so may you guys 
wanna do a LINUX port).
Ok, so the nice part is MHO from playing with the demo version.
What Loren was talking about before was the program they have tailored to 
Traveller.
Plus a big bonus of some method of generating/converting characters for 
other flavors of Traveller:
CT, Mega:T, TNE, T4...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:08:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:08:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411024937.01dc7010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020412020513.B8D47279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/11/02 at 02:50 AM,  laning <laning@wizard.net> said:

>Wow, hadn't realized that 'Salon' had already visited the PBEM world.

>Thanks for the good URLs.

You're welcome. 

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:19:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:19:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <200204120218.DWG00159@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>
>What Loren was talking about before was the program they 
>have tailored to Traveller.
>Plus a big bonus of some method of generating/converting 
>characters for other flavors of Traveller:
>CT, Mega:T, TNE, T4...
>

That's what I'm talking about.  No sense in writing the GURPS 
thingie again.  But a Traveller generator.  Might be nice to 
have one that did all systems from beginning to end.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:21:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:21:37 2002
Subject: [TML] [PROPOSAL] The Fornast Project
Message-ID: <LAW2-F100BKhwWn5WNW000021c5@hotmail.com>

The Fornast Project

I was wondering whether anyone would be interested in helping to detail 
Fornast Sector in the same way & using the same procedures/guidelines as the 
Delphi Project.

As a startpoint, there are the maps & UWP's at Anthony's Maps Site 
(http://maps.grandsurvey.com). Also whatever canon information was 
published.

A quick scan of the names indicates that people of Solomani descent had a 
major hand in naming the sector, several worlds appear to have been named 
for authors, artists and locations on Terra.

If anyone is interested in joining me, please contact me directly at 
gndonald@hotmail.com, use the subject heading [FORNAST].

Graham


This is the Universe ... Big isn't it?


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:48:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:48:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space 
travel, etc.?

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:55:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:55:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411225254.019d0e50@192.168.0.1>

Is this for a PBEM or a F2F?

At 10:46 PM 4/11/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
>Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space
>travel, etc.?
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:59:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:59:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120258.DWH03019@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin asks
>
>Is this for a PBEM or a F2F?

PBEM.  The F2F will be coming in May.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:22:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:22:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <F156LszeIOVn1KL99o200017a04@hotmail.com>

Traveller optics reflect (suprise) what was available in the 1970s.  
Basically, you are getting a hunting scope.

Since then, combat optics have become light and tough enough for general 
issue, and have basically developed along two lines.  First, the "dot" type, 
like the Aimpoint Comp M or Trijicon Reflex, have no magnification but 
vastly increase the speed of target acquision versus irons.  The second 
type, like the ELCAN or Trijicon ACOG, are low magnification scopes (in the 
1.5 to 4 power range) which give greater precision at longer range and 
probably also have slightly increased speed over irons at short range.  With 
either type of optic, you shoot with both eyes open and the recticle glows.

How could these two very different types of optics be integrated into 
Traveller?  They seem to be a pretty important development, but our poor 
heroes in the 53rd century are still stuck with iron sight or the vague 
supersight on the ACR & Gauss Rifle.  I looked over the CT rules and there 
is no provision for having a "fast" weapon, when that is probably pretty 
important.  Do other versions have weapon speed?

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:34:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:34:28 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F114GuOJ75lRN8aK38o0000ff5e@hotmail.com>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:

>On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> >
> > Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle
> > you like the look of.
>
>Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
>_ugly_:-(

Call me klutz, but I am so rough on guns that I am afraid to take the woods 
out of the safe.  There is also a certain utilitarian beauty to a synthetic 
stock.  Plus, in case no one has noticed, I kind of like black rifles.  ;)

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:35:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:35:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <200204120333.DWJ00923@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>With either type of optic, you shoot with both eyes open and 
>the recticle glows.
>

When I shoot with the Leupold Mark V M3, I shoot with both 
eyes open.  It has no glowing reticle.  If you're closing 
your eyes when using a scope, you're making yourself very 
uncomfortable and reducing your peripheral vision. Makes it 
hard to use a scope on a running target.

>How could these two very different types of optics be 
>integrated into Traveller?  

The combat system *sucks*.  If you see the rules for increase 
in aim modifier by time spent aiming in PCCS, and combine 
that with maximum ballistic accuracy at each range, you get 
an extremely accurate picture of how much quicker certain 
weapons and sighting systems can be at various ranges, and 
how much benefit they provide at various ranges.  The detail 
is so well done that you can actually differentiate between 
weapons.

There is nothing like this in Traveller.  The arguments that 
you see us have about "this weapon and sight" vs. "that 
weapon and sight" actually translate into the model in PCCS.

OTOH, the character generation in PCCS *sucks*
________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
In-Reply-To: <200204120105.DWD07544@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DBA6E8.397D0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 6:05 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
>> Given you predilection for sniping, I'm surprised you didn't
>> mention the .338 Lapua.
> 
> In the Sako rifle?  Probably.  But then again, I'm trying to
> get into a different niche.  Ever try to find the .338 Lapua
> at the store? Oh, that's right, you're in Oregon...

Actually, I like the Accuracy International.

> I can get a Dakota action in the white from Brownell's and
> put the thing together myself.  Then I could send it out to
> get blued.  I'm not yet willing to do the really dirty work
> like bluing.

Gonna turn your own barrel and everything?  I build rifles all the time.  I
wouldn't care to try to match the stock fitting they do at Dakota.
> 
> Ah, now I have it.  By your charts, the .338 is a good
> compromise. Did they ever make the Valmet 412 in .338?  It's
> been discontinued, but it makes a fast two shots.
>
How about a Browning BAR (the civilian one) in .338.  I see they're still
making them.  4 quick shots.  Believe it on not, I've seen a BAR rebarreled
to .458.
> 
> It's too bad the Krag action isn't that strong.  I really
> like that ability to top off the magazine without opening the
> weapon.

One locking lug
> 
> If I was playing in your campaign, I think I would be a PH,
> and would probably have a brace of doubles as per above.

I run a PH myself.  He's an NPC now.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020412135535.A10116@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> The assumption was made that I would be vaporizing 
> a column of water, in 0.7 milliseconds, and that the target 
> spot would be 1mm x 1mm.  We came up with 1000 times the 
> power required to do the minimum vaporization and it came
> out to 6.8 kJ.

That's odd, I get 500 J/m for minimum-energy vaporization of water in
such a column.  Multiplying that by 0.3 metres and a factor of 1000
gives me 150 kJ.

In general, the problem with single-pulse lasers is that the vapour
(and/or plasma) absorbs and/or scatters most of the incoming energy.
Even for a 1 mm spot size and relatively long 0.7 ms pulse, you'll
mainly get a surface crater rather than a drilled hole because most of
the energy is scattered and absorbed outside the target.

The easiest way to avoid this is to lengthen the pulses until plasma
heating isn't an issue any more, but this means that the target will
probably move too far during the "pulse".

The next easiest is to have many very short pulses that cause
miniature explosions, and enough time between pulses for most of the
products to clear (in the first few pulses near the surface) or widen
the damage channel (in later pulses).  Rather than vaporization, the
primary damage mechanism becomes kinetic energy of the products.  This
is more effective on living targets, since it takes a *lot* more
energy to vaporize tissue or bone than to tear or break it.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:11:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:11:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <F626HHGNZ4mF1IT18ol00001f93@hotmail.com>

What is PCCS?

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:11:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:11:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204121200450.15966-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Derek:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> Good scenario hook.

 Thank You

> IMTU, there are Imperial standards for data storage and media, mainly
> promulgated by the Scout Service.  This is not a standard in the sense that
> all equipment is required by law to support it, but rather a de-facto
> standard in the sense that the IISS X-boat system uses a specific set of
> formats to transfer messages.

 Funny but I would personally thing that to be the case in this reality.
But I learned from a Coast Guard friend that they  train for some work on
Max. Then have a Unix/Lynix system in the field. I know that the holywood
special effects people love the Amiga and Light Wave prg. The Amiga
version. Remembering that in 93 Speilburg <sp?> was offering full new
price for old 1200s and 400s just to have a stock pile of the Amiga
special-custom chips. I know from a Video made by an Amiga Group, that I
had to return. That Nasa uses Amiga 1200s and Amiga 4000s. Recently I
learened that the IRS doesn't keep  old Windrone machines. So the records
kept say on a Winblown 95v1 is not viewable by the IRS. Keep that in mind
for an audit. Got that from the H&R block people in town.

 Personally and this is for MTU rebirth. I see things as being very
chaotic.By that I mean for example. Take the  computer wars of the 1908s.
FWIW the computers won <BG> I sold TRS <a.k.a. TRaSh> 80s for Rasio Shack
as a local tech. OK it is a known fact that Billy hates. But he did sell
his "Basic OS" to Jack Tramiel creator of Commodore and all rights for
$7500 <I'll send the e-mail addy of the man that was there to any one that
asks, Mr. Jim Butterfield>. The TRS 80, C=64, PET, Vic-20, C-16, Plus/4,
C=128, PC II, Colt. Those save the thr TRS 80 all being 8 bit C= modles.
These all had different forms of Basic as an OS along with a built in
interpreter.

 O.K. add the different Apples, Atarai, Franklin, Osborne <sp?> and for
the U.K. members I will mention the Speccy <Spectrum: flame wars on
comp.sys.cbm about this one> Each had a different basic. To the point that
they wer pretty much incompatible with each other. I know that ther were
other models using other Basic formats and loading. I know that my
prefered PC system uses GCR formatiing. I think another one is called MFD,
but am not certain of the title.

 Now take all of those and what I missed. Add to that the IBuM system
starting from the Pc jr. to current. All the differeent versions of the
windoze NT and ## themes. I mean can you today on the X thing read a disk
from a PC jr  on original media/format?

 Then add to all of that the number of imperial worlds and Independent
worlds. We won't ask about Darrians, Sword Worldsm hiver or the Zho. <BG>

 You did bring up a point that I was alluding to, a standard for Imperial
ships. Though the used Gazelle may not have even if it is a Fiery variant
<most popular IMTU> the current system. If this system is based off the
windoze. Then it is impossible to read a 20+ old disk. Even if Imperial.
Yeah I am a Wintel Basher and proud of it. <SEG> In a game concept. What I
am wondering as an example. Say your game in CT is in in 1105. Your ship
is 1095 era. Rather new for a team I know. But the disk you uncover.
Though Imperial is from say 1075. Based on todays theorem of disposable
computers. How can the competer man on the ship read it? <A> the equipment
<B> the current skill of the compter man. Does though make a great sotry
line. Now if you add the local tech level flavour on a computer and for
the use of the citizens of the planet in question..... Oy such Tsuris!

> It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the
> Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of
> pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding
> and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of
> languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate,
> lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications
> protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of
> getting messages into and out of the system.

 Point well stated. Computer incompatibilities would make the Imperiaum
fall apart. Before the MT saga. Pardon me for using the Commodore as an
example platform in this part. It is however the only one that I know to
any degree. On the concept of  being standard for msg and images. I see a
parrel to the C= PC platform. Take this msg that I am writing. Written in
PINE 4.44 my e-mail system. Sent out in ASCII. Though my actual system
uses the PET ascii as it's default system. HTML though for a msg does bug
me and a lot of people. On my system it presents all the commands as well
as the msg. Yet I can use a prg from last year called Wave B2.9 <still
Beta> that allows me to read in 80c HTML. In fact my book mark file is
converted that way. JOs a free Beta Test DL also will read on screen HTML.

 Images: I can veiw off line GIF and JPG files. Also I can pritn them
through Post Script and even EPS <Encapsulated Post Script> Images. There
is a tool that I haven't had yet to use. That will convert PDF to PS for
my use and zip it in PK2.04g zip. A format that I can also use in packing
and unpacking. All on a 1984 PC.

 My point of the above is that there is probably that there are those that
will upgrade the hardware and software for their system. As is being done
for mine. Though admittedly along a different vector than the windrone
system.

> The net result should be similar to the modern Internet - any computer
> manufacturer who hopes to have any significant market share at all ensures
> that their equipment can read and write the standard media and formats, and
> can speak the standard protocols.  This doesn't prevent the manufacturers
> from building machines that also support proprietary encoding and
> formats.  However, if you're stuck with a data chip in one of those
> formats, your best bet is to try to find the machine that wrote it, and
> copy the data to a standard format.

 As i showed above. There would be those that would create ways to use the
systems to see the new items. Though I do have a tendency to bristle at
the term "standard". Been a victim of that erronous ideaology many times
in many situations. I do think that some sort of "chip" is needed for the
interchange of Imperial  material. Though there are probaly PRGs to
convert the material to local standards. As i have tools to convert Ascii
to PET ascii. Or the ability to log onto a BBS or even here with Ansi
colours. Making the material sutible for the local inhabitants and the
systems that they are using. The question is the reverse possible? Which
is where the  story plot originated.

 Using today as an example. Can the Windoze users here read a file that I
make? Well some of them they can. The previously mentioned gwimport.exe
file. But that is only for text, not the images. There are emulators if
the file is make in that format <.D64, .D71, .D81> But only work if the
user hs the tool to use the files. Vice 1.8 IIRC. So I would suggest that
something in the reverse that is from local to Imperial would need to have
ben created. Or t here is some sort of thing. Like you mentioned the Inet.
Where the ability to collect items of interest is found in some form of
compatible mannerism.

 Though I sincerly doubt that the Imperium would alow any sort of history
revisionist group such as micro$oft to maintian such a terrorist strangle
hold on things.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:11:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:11:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <20020410.001437.-391371.2.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204121246530.15966-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:


 Davmoh Casan?????

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411234005.01fed258@mail.qrc.com>

At 06:38 PM 4/11/2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
>That sounds pretty good. It means, however, that ships might
>have a minimum separation, which affects fleet actions.

Compared to weapon ranges or the movement scale of the Traveller ship to 
ship combat board games, a separation of 100 ship lengths is insignificant 
(required ship to ship separations are going to be on the order of 
10km-100km; ship combat scales are on the order of 
10,000km-100,000km).  It'd take a pretty large fleet for the separations to 
make the formation extend out of a single Brilliant Lances hex, for example.

>Starting one jump field within another?

I would assume that "actually inside one another" is a special case of "too 
close" presumably the separation between the drives in this case would be 
one on the order of a ship length or less - the rough equivalent of 
attempting a jump from a planetary surface.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:22:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <200204120421.DWL00090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" asks
>
>What is PCCS?

Phoenix Command Combat System.  There is no substitute.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:31:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
References: <200204120421.DWL00090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB662B4.8090706@yarranet.net.au>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> "Sam D" asks
> 
>>What is PCCS?

> 
> Phoenix Command Combat System.  There is no substitute.

Unless of course you favour a cinematic "I have a gun and I shoot them 
with it" style of play in which case CT or Fudge may be the combat 
system for you. Each to their own.

Phill
(Who has played using the PCCS related Aliens RPG system and knows it's 
not his cup of tea but understands that others love that sort of thing)
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:34:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:34:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DBB173.39814%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 7:46 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
> Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space
> travel, etc.?

What are you looking for characterwise?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:34:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DBB1B6.39815%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 7:46 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
> Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space
> travel, etc.?


BTW.  When are you going to post something on the Corridor website or add
description to the mail list?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:40:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:40:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120438.DWL01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>  
>
>What are you looking for characterwise?
>
More Intel characters, especially a computer expert.

We have shooters and ship drivers, a lawyer, and one incoming 
intel type.
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:41:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:41:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120439.DWL01247@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

This weekend.  I'll update the description tonight, though.
I wrote a lot of game material this week.
________________
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http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:47:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:47:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
Message-ID: <OF58588BF9.5C945756-ONCA256B99.0016233C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Zane commented:
>>In fact, I was having a discussion this afternoon with a coworker about
>>whether anybody would ever have the testicular fortitude to make a 
series
>>of movies based on the Lensman or Family D'Alembert series.
>>
>I'm scared to think what a mess a studio would make out of it!

You are also forgetting that the Family D'Alembert series _IS_ Traveller!

Or as close as nevermind.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:58:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:58:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411234005.01fed258@mail.qrc.com>
References: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020411234005.01fed258@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <20020412145541.A10353@freeman.little-possums.net>

Derek Wildstar wrote:
> It'd take a pretty large fleet for the separations to make the
> formation extend out of a single Brilliant Lances hex, for example.

Only a million ships or so...


> I would assume that "actually inside one another" is a special case
> of "too close" presumably the separation between the drives in this
> case would be one on the order of a ship length or less - the rough
> equivalent of attempting a jump from a planetary surface.

Of course, one "ship length" for a dreadnaught might be 10 diameters
for a free trader...  The Tigress might be safe, but the trader has
all sorts of problems.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 23:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 11 22:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEELHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412012202.01dde140@pop.wizard.net>

Frank Pitt:
>People are discussing "open source" or free game rules and
>claiming it's going to put game designers out of work.

You overstate what I was saying.  My thesis is that if open source RPG 
design gets really successful, then it will put at least some designers out 
of work.  If.  How many are displaced depends on the success level.  It's a 
very small industry.

>This is basically crap.

Don't be shy, tell us how you really feel.  <G>


>FUDGE is sold, and it is completely freely available at the same
>time.

Most RPG players of my acquaintance ( a _lot_ of people over the last 25+ 
years) are either unaware of FUDGE's existence or don't care about 
it.  Most FUDGE owners of my acquaintance paid somebody for it.


>GURPS Lite is given away, as were the basic rules for Alternity,
>among others.

I've known a lot more GURPS owners than FUDGE owners, and not one of them 
had the free version.


>The D20 system is "open source" and there are many designers
>making money off it, (or planning to make money off it) including
>Hunter Gordon on this list.

Yes.  I am curious to see how D20 will be doing over the coming months and 
years.

Again, I rarely see the world in stark black and white.  I don't think it's 
a choice between a world that includes open source RPG design but wipes 
professional designers out of existence, or has professional designers but 
no open source designers.  But it's a small industry/marketplace and even 
modest changes might affect it in big way.

My personal preference is we charge ahead with both professional and open 
source, and meanwhile the rest of the world buys a clue and realizes how 
much fun they can be having if they join in.  It beats watching reruns on 
TV.  The market explodes, and good fortune is had by all.

--Laning
"Imagine..."  -John Lennon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 00:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204120903310.10371-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> > parts of the debate to TML chat?
> > Or else I'll begin posting socialist and communist propaganda...
> > (not a serious threat, but about as relevant)
> 
> But how can guns not be relevant to Traveller? :)

Perhaps it is just the Scandinavian socialist welfare state mindset, but I
have also trouble seeing how modern guns relates to Traveller.

I might understand this on a PCCS list, and I might even subscribe one,
did I own the game, but this seems a bit excessive.

I understood that there is a tml-gun list somewhere. Please take your
discussion there, if you need to continue. 

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 00:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] forced to unsubscribe for a bit
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412022408.01dde4e0@pop.wizard.net>

My ISP is doing bad things with my mail server.  I seem to be able to send 
but not receive.  I haven't seen any new TML traffic for the last 24 hours 
or so.  To prevent the incoming-email equivalent of Three Mile Island, I am 
turning off my TML subscription for awhile.  I apologize to anyone who I 
was also on a thread that I was participating in.  Or maybe you're just as 
glad.  :->>

Back in a day or so.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 00:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <DAV32eCyWu1MRRNOqcC0001c03c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIECKEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

> > Star Wars Name =
> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
> > name
> >
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town
> > where you were born.

Antfa Rilon (eek) or
Tonfa Rilon (a bit better)

Antony (call me Tony) Farrell


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 01:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Fri Apr 12 00:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Unpublished Material Question
Message-ID: <LAW2-F94snwO5UGXtTG000025a5@hotmail.com>

I was wondering if anyone has a list of all the Traveller(MT, TNE) material 
that GDW advertised, but did not release, also if anyone has any info as to 
how far along the material was before it was canned?

It would make for interesting reading.

Graham

This is the Universe ... Big isn't it?


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 01:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 00:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <memo.472174@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B8DBB173.39814%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
May I pass this around to other potentially interested parties, or do you 
want to keep it on the TML?

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 04:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Fri Apr 12 03:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] BITS website updated - Includes Travellercon.....
Message-ID: <B9A03CCD-4DFC-11D6-9B38-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support
http://www.bits.org.uk/

The BITS website has been updated to include details of this weekend's 
Traveller Con at Hebden Bridge, and the forthcoming Dudley Bug Ball, 
Fantasy Fair in Peterborough, Strange Days, GenCon UK and Dragonmeet 2002.
  Loads of crunchy goodness.

Have a look at the Traveller events that are on in the UK!!

Dom
BITS webmaster
webmaster@bits.org.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 05:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 04:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204121124.DWZ00277@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mexal, 
Yes you may pass it around.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 05:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 12 04:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RealLife(tm) Battledress, next chapter
References: <20020412005325.F414D27A9A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6CA44.BBDCD63E@earthlink.net>

Leonard Erickson posted:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > This is kinda fun...
> >
> > http://www.aro.army.mil/soldiernano/
> >
> >
> > David
>
> Gee, you sent this on March 3, 1987. Slow X-boat?

Must be those posts on inertial suppression. <grin>


Actually it was a messed-up loaner laptop from work.


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 06:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 05:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204120903310.10371-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>

On 12 Apr 2002 at 9:06, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> Perhaps it is just the Scandinavian socialist welfare state mindset, but I
> have also trouble seeing how modern guns relates to Traveller.

Well if you cast your eye over the list of guns in CT's Book 1 and 
their descriptions you'll note that aside from the laser rifle they're 
all weapons you could find in a gun store or on a battlefield in 1970.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:05:08 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
References: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost> <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Well if you cast your eye over the list of guns in CT's Book 1 and 
> their descriptions you'll note that aside from the laser rifle they're 
> all weapons you could find in a gun store or on a battlefield in 1970.

... which means that we already have all the information we need on those
guns in our game.

Please...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
 <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>
 <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412091256.01fc0e98@192.168.0.1>

At 03:06 PM 4/12/2002 +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > Well if you cast your eye over the list of guns in CT's Book 1 and
> > their descriptions you'll note that aside from the laser rifle they're
> > all weapons you could find in a gun store or on a battlefield in 1970.
>... which means that we already have all the information we need on those
>guns in our game.

Nah...it means it needs a big old gearhead update...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty 
clearly to protect political discourse.
But liberals reject the notion that free speech is therefore limited to 
political topics, even broadly defined.
True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself. But why leap 
to the conclusion that a broadly
worded constitutional freedom ("the right of the people to keep and bear 
arms") is narrowly limited by its
stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away? My New Republic 
colleague Mickey Kaus says that if
liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest 
of the Bill of Rights, there would be
law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory." -- Michael Kinsley 
Washington Post, January 8, 1990
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <OFC6A9CE02.C6420851-ON85256B99.004870A4@pheaa.org>





Mark Urbin asks
>
>Is this for a PBEM or a F2F?

>PBEM.  The F2F will be coming in May.

What is F2F?

also will the gm give us pregened chars?

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:45:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:45:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F195GoE1k8LN6FWe7Xl0000b978@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB78DC2.16250.66B1EA2@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002, at 0:35, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      The Ziru Sirka, while stagnant, is ahead of the Terrans in the tech 
> race.  Sure the Terrans can catch up, if they're given the time.  I just 
> can't quite understand why they were given the time.

The reasons are simple but conviluted.

1) In the ZS, the way to advance one's career was through the 
successful management of "prestige" sector (ie one that had "the 
eye" of the central government). For much of its history (at least 
until the 8th IW), the Solomani Rim was one of the backwaters and 
as such it was governed by a long succession of chair warmers,  
the disgraced and the occassional outright incompetant. Any 
administrator with drive and talent who ended up in the Rim spent 
most of their efforts getting out as quickly as possible

2) Initially the ZS didn't realise that there even was a war on. To the 
Vilani the 1st IW was simply a series of punitive raids against a 
nest of pirates (an analysis of the Terran's not too far from the truth 
at the time). If you think along the lines of British punitive raids 
against the tribes of the NW frontier (ie a very minor effort). This 
was indeed fortunate for the Terrans as even this minor effort nearly 
crushed them in the 1st War.

3) The ZS assumed that the Terran's technological growth would 
follow their own glacial pattern. They simply had no comprehension 
that the Terrans could match their techonology in just 33 years. 
The very concepts of "reverse engineering" and "synergetic 
exploitation" were totally alien to the Vilani (they simply could 
never understand that the Terrans would just copy their techology 
and then combine different elements in ways they have never even 
considered)

4) Likewise they measured their potential to expand in the terms of 
their own expansion. They did not forsee the Terran population 
explosion that was inevitable. Also, they could not know that the 
Terran's advanced biological sciences enabled them to support far 
greater population loads and exploit worlds that the Vilani had 
writen off as totally uninhabitable.
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:46:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:46:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F70SDx1kLwxTQTYkWSz00001108@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB78DC2.21937.66B1EA2@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002, at 15:31, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Yeah, I've got to think this over even more.  To my mind, minor race 
> rebellions aided and abetted by Terran infiltrators should be a big part of 
> the Interstellar Wars.  There would have been uprisings and sabotage a 
> sector or so "behind" the fighting front and the minor race allies providing 
> the lower-TL cannon fodder for the Alliance's offensives.

No, not really, at least not until right at the end (the Nth War). 
From the 1st to 8th War, the Terrans were simply facing the forces 
of a single ZS sector. If the ZS central fleet had been brought to 
bear at any stage in this period the Terrans would have been 
defeated (eventually, it wouldn't have been a cake walk though). 
But in the 9th War they faced the central fleet and anihilated it. 
This is the key factor in the collapse of the ZS.

Picture this, for thousands of years the ZS had stood as an 
immovable colossus, fixed and totally unchanging. It had the 
overwhelming faith of the vast majority of its citizens, sure things 
were not quite what they had once been and something was 
"wrong", but nobody could quite put their finger on it.

Sure their were some disaffected minor races and occassionally 
they did rebel, but they were always put in their place and if worst 
came to worst, there was still the Central Fleet. The Central Fleet 
was the very embodiment of the power and prestige of the ZS. 
Undefeated for thousands of year and with unquestioned power. As 
long as it existed any rebellion was doomed and the power of the 
ZS was undoubted.

In fact the empire was by this time a tettering house of cards. The 
total lack of change had lead to a slow build up of social tensions 
that were just waiting to break. All that was required was a crisis to 
spark the collapse. As long as nobody doubted the Empire it 
survived, but the moment serious doubt entered the equation, it just 
unravelled under the weight of thousands of years of social inertia.

And the spark was the Terran victory in the 9th War. Suddenly the 
most visible and tangible symbol of Vilani power was not just 
defeated by anihilated. The loyal citizens of the ZS went into a sort 
of state of shock and the oppressed minor races saw that the ZS 
could be defeated. This gives a sort of sudden explosion of the built 
up tensions. Sure the Empire still has the exact same resources 
as it had the day before the destruction of the Central Fleet, the 
infrastructure exists to build new ones and lots of other ships are 
still available. But the Empire has lost the faith of its people and it 
is doomed.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204121406.DXD05867@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"William Lane" asks
>What is F2F?

Face to Face
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Doug C.)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020412140824.40827.qmail@web13402.mail.yahoo.com>

I would be interested.  Could you end me ome more
info?
Doug
<<dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>>

--- "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
> Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance
> space 
> travel, etc.

______________________________________________________________________ 
Music, Movies, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:13:22 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

What do our lovely Ex Mil Travs think of this recent development?

Mikey

PS You just know that someone is going end up eating the moisture sachet at
one point. 

PPS Can someone please translate what 'acceptable' actually means in the
context of below. 

------------
April 12 2002

Military scientists in the United States have developed a new battlefield
weapon: the indestructible sandwich.

It can survive air drops and rough handling to stay fresh for up to three
years, even in tropical conditions.

Eventually, it is expected to follow freeze-dried coffee, dehydrated egg and
processed cheese from the battlefield on to supermarket shelves.

So far, only pepperoni and barbecued chicken varieties have been developed.
Soldiers who have tasted them say they are "acceptable".

Scientists are now working on indestructible pocket pizzas, cream-filled
bagels and peanut butter sandwiches.

The sandwiches are designed to stay fresh for up to three years at 26C, the
temperature of a warm summer's day, or six months at 38C. They are the
result of a long search by the US Army for rations that can be eaten on the
move.

The breakthrough was finding how to stop the filling from making the bread
soggy.

Scientists at the Soldier Systems Centre in Natick, Massachusetts, added
substances called humectants to pepperoni and chicken fillings.

Humectants not only prevent water from soaking into the bread but also limit
the amount of moisture available for bacterial growth, New Scientist
reports.

The sandwiches are then sealed in laminated plastic pouches that contain
sachets of chemicals to prevent the growth of yeast, mould and bacteria.

The standard American battlefield rations, called MRE, or Meal Ready to Eat,
already contain ingredients for making sandwiches. But they have to be
pasteurised and stored in separate pouches to prevent sogginess.

The Telegraph, London
-------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>; from jenry023@student.liu.se on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200
References: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost> <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost> <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020412081916.A31020@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> 
> Please...

Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their sex
lives.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.    --John Ciardi

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:24:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:24:10 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip three year old sandwich>

ObTrav:  Ever wondered what was in those Rations?  It's just 
a logistical footnote in most RPGs.  Yeah, I have 5 days of 
food.  But how hungry are you?  How well are they packaged?  
How long can people really subsist on them?  How much did you 
pay for them (characters will always go cheap on the rations -
- there's no incentive not to).

We should have three grades of rations, that come "ready to 
eat"

Grade C  Civilian, cheap.  5cr per meal.  Not guaranteed to 
stay together if you sit on the packages.  Gosh, were those 
scrambled eggs?  You won't be eating these after a few days, 
unless you're starving.

Grade B  Civilian, expensive or Military Surplus.  8 cr per 
meal.  OK to eat if you don't smell it or look at it.  Some 
of the meals, by chance, will be good.  Worth arguing over 
who gets them.  Or you can buy meals blind, open them up, and 
throw out the ones you don't like.  Morale will suffer if you 
have to eat these for more than a week.

Grade A Military current, Civilian Expedition Quality.  12 cr 
per meal.  Even comes with a warmer, wow.  You will be able 
to eat these for a few months, but you will recognize the 
same entrees again and again.


________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:56:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:56:33 2002
Subject: [TML] forced to unsubscribe for a bit
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412022408.01dde4e0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8DC437B.3989C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 11:26 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> My ISP is doing bad things with my mail server.  I seem to be able to send
> but not receive.  I haven't seen any new TML traffic for the last 24 hours
> or so.  To prevent the incoming-email equivalent of Three Mile Island, I am
> turning off my TML subscription for awhile.  I apologize to anyone who I
> was also on a thread that I was participating in.  Or maybe you're just as
> glad.  :->>
> 
> Back in a day or so.

I can always set you up with local email on my server.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
In-Reply-To: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:23:34AM -0400
References: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020412090107.A31185@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:23:34AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> We should have three grades of rations, that come "ready to 
> eat"

Shouldn't the grades go in reverse order, e.g. Military, cheap;
Civilian, cheap and finally Civilian, expensive?  IME civilian rations
tend to be _much_ tastier than MREs.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:02:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:02:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel
Message-ID: <004201c1e232$ea7b0ee0$519793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C1E23B.3984D900
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 1st. A sample will be =
appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while.=20



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C1E23B.3984D900
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is =
December 1st.=20
A sample will be appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C1E23B.3984D900--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <200204121508.DXF06733@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>Shouldn't the grades go in reverse order, e.g. Military, 
>cheap;

I've had civilian cheap - too nasty for words.  Don't ever 
make me eat those eggs again, or whatever that greenish 
yellow lumpy slime was.

I think I had three grades of civilian in there, so let's 
rearrange the list

Grade C   Civilian cheap/Ancient Military Surplus
Grade B2  Military Surplus
Grade B1  Civilian average
Grade A2  Current Military
Grade A1  Civilian Expedition Grade

The military food packs, and the Grade A1 come in durable 
packaging, and are shelf stable in extreme environments.
The military takes less preparation.
Grade A1 and A2 include heaters, condiments, etc.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3636@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E234.E92A6110
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

COOL!!  Can't wait to see it :)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: MJ Dougherty [mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:01 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel


 
Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 1st. A sample will be appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. 
 
 
 
Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses


------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E234.E92A6110
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">


<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=433291515-12042002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>COOL!!&nbsp; Can't wait to see it :)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=433291515-12042002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Jesse</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> MJ Dougherty 
  [mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 12, 2002 8:01 
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> tml@travellercentral.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TML] Traveller 
  novel<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 
  1st. A sample will be appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. 
  </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, Quiklink 
  Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E234.E92A6110--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018630776.524.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> "Matthew Bond" says
> <snip laser power>
> 
> I think I did a laser calculation on tml-guntech
> which has a 6.8kJ laser in 0.7 milliseconds (not 
> microseconds) that is more than capable of penetrating 30cm 
> of flesh.  The assumption was made that I would be vaporizing 
> a column of water, in 0.7 milliseconds, and that the target 
> spot would be 1mm x 1mm.  We came up with 1000 times the 
> power required to do the minimum vaporization and it came
> out to 6.8 kJ.

Hm...of course, against a target moving at more than 1m/s relative to your aim
point, you're going to have noticeable wandering during the beam period, making
the laser relatively inefficient at snapshots and the like.  In addition,
energy requirement to boil body temperature water is roughly 2.5 kJ/gram and
you're hitting 0.24 grams of material, for a vaporization energy of about 600
joules.

(Tim: I think you gave vaporization energy in calories, not joules).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412081916.A31020@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020412171320.46876.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start
> mentioning their sex
> lives.

Yeah, but there are rarely more than 10-15 off-topic
total posts on one of those threads before someone
(usually politely) asks them to either drop it or move
off the tml.  The gun topics have gone on for much
longer than 10-15 posts and lost topic either Monday
or Tuesday.  Suggestions:

1.  Move the discussion to private e-mail
2.  Move the discussion to tml-guntech
3.  Move the discussion to tml-chat
4.  Move the discussion to a gearhead list
5.  Bring it back to topic by relating to existing
combat rules or by designing new combat rules.
6.  Drop it altogether.

But please, don't keep it here without retaining game
relevance.  Discussions about which gun you prefer is
fine, but it is not on topic.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204121730.DXL01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>
>Hm...of course, against a target moving at more than 1m/s 
>relative to your aim point, you're going to have noticeable 
>wandering during the beam period, making
>the laser relatively inefficient at snapshots and the like.  
>In addition,
>energy requirement to boil body temperature water is roughly 
>2.5 kJ/gram and
>you're hitting 0.24 grams of material, for a vaporization 
>energy of about 600
>joules.
>

The calculation is over on tml-guntech. It is based on 
calculations done by the Air Force to determine required 
fluence levels to damage or vaporize a target. In their case, 
they were targeting mild steel.  I am targeting water. I 
first calculated the amount of material to be vaporized. I 
then assumed that it would take 1000 times that amount of 
energy, because of movement, armor, etc.  You may notice, 
however, that the reflectivity of mild unpolished steel is 
around 90% for a 1.3 nm wavelength beam.  The human body, 
OTOH, is around 10%.  So if you're not armored, my 1000 
factor is very, very conservative.  Even if we don't have an 
accurate model of penetration, I am fairly confident that 
raising the required energy by a factor of 1000 should get us 
some results other than a surface explosion.

Since we're using an overtone DF laser at 1.3nm, the 
atmosphere (according to published data) is not going to 
absorb any relevant percentage of the beam.

I also picked a very small spot size 1 mm x 1 mm.  If we make 
the spot size larger, say 1 cm x 1 cm, the power requirements 
really rise.

I have seen a continuous beam of similar spot size operating 
at a much lower power level.  It slices through 2 meters of 
layered fabric, cutting cloth for dresses.  The effect is 
nearly instantaneous.  Much faster than a saw or knife blade 
would ever be on a stack like that.  I was warned that if a 
human was ever inside the unit when it was operating, they 
would be cut instantly into the pattern.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <E16w5Hj-00044A-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

=20
> Face to Face

Where at?

Beth



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204121730.DXL01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018634628.8505.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> The calculation is over on tml-guntech.

Aha.  I found your error.  To quote:

>We want a wound channel approximately 1 mm x 1 mm, completely through the
theoretical 30 cm thick body that Tod uses for his calculations.

>The spot size will be 1mm x 1mm.

>This is 0.003 cc of water.

0.1 cm x 0.1cm x 30 cm = 0.3 cc.  You have a factor of 100 error.  Note that
your total energy requirement may still be credible, since you used a factor of
1,000 inefficiency.  I've seen pulsed laser calculations that would allow
blowthrough on as little as one kilojoule.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:10:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:10:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204121809.DXL07040@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Beth" asks
>> Face to Face
>
>Where at?
>
germantown, maryland
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204121814.DXL07610@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony says Aha
<snip>

ObTrav: I like a laser rifle from the aesthetic, CT 
perspective.  I have this view of "the spacers", people who 
come from the stars to have adventures on some remote 
planet.  And it isn't "practical" or "realistic".  I almost 
think that the whole plasma weapon thing is unnecessary.

Still, I like those ray guns in "Mars Attacks".  Give me one 
of those, thank you. Cool sound, fantastic effect.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:49:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:49:09 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <3CB72B6D.1443A6E7@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] The "gun" debate
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>> 
>> Please...
>
> Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> sex lives.

Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
subscribe via the digest. 

Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT 
political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to 
keep the list Traveller focused.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB72B6D.1443A6E7@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412150348.00b8d080@urbin.net>

At 01:46 PM 4/12/02 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> > From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> >> Please...
> > Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> > sex lives.
>Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
>subscribe via the digest.
>Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
>mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT
>political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to
>keep the list Traveller focused.

Hmmm...I haven't noticed the thread discussing the politics of ownership,
just the mechanics of the firearms and the wounds analysis.

It is starting to drift to the guntech list though.

Actually a good on topic thread on snub pistols has been going on there too.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Unpublished Material Question
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F94snwO5UGXtTG000025a5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEFPDKAA.tml@downport.com>

There wasn't much Traveller bottled up in GDW, and there do not seem to have
been a lot of things that were started and then dropped when they were close
to publication. I'm sure there were any number of ideas that were scrapped
because they were good enough :)

On the other hand, several of the licensees did die with good stuff in the
pipeline. Gamelords, Ltd. had several good items. one was Grand Survey,
which they sold to DGP. A couple of others were published recently by
Cargonaut Press. Paranoia Press had one or two items in the pipeline. DGP
had several when they went under, and at least one item, Lords of Thunder,
was put out as an article instead of a book.

For my money, some of the best stuff that has never seen wide circulation is
in some of the old fanzines; Between Worlds, Imperium Staple, Working
Passage, Parasec, Alien Star, Third Imperium, and many more. I'd like to see
some of those published on the web as Security Leak has been. The fanzines
were the WWW of their day. If anyone knows how to get in touch with
publishers of these old fanzines, let me know and I will work on web
publication.
_____________________________________

       http://www.downport.com
       The Traveller Web Portal
       webmaster@downport.com

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Graham Donald

I was wondering if anyone has a list of all the Traveller(MT, TNE) material
that GDW advertised, but did not release, also if anyone has any info as to
how far along the material was before it was canned?

It would make for interesting reading.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel
In-Reply-To: <004201c1e232$ea7b0ee0$519793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <004201c1e232$ea7b0ee0$519793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <200204121530190649.99C963A7@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 4/12/2002 at 4:00 PM MJ Dougherty wrote:

>Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 1st. A sample will be=
 appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. 
>

The Diaspora Phoenix sample has been posted and is available at:

http://www.TravellerRPG.com/TNE/DiasporaPhoenix.html

Hunter



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:57:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:57:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com>

>"Beth" asks
> >> Face to Face
> >
> >Where at?
> >
>germantown, maryland

This *is* the germantown near DC and not the one on the Eastern Shore, 
right?



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204122000.DXP05028@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Yes, Germantown, Maryland, that armpit of suburbia.  One of 
the largest concentrations of people in Maryland.

Home of the Department of Energy, etc.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:01:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:01:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Ack so close and yet so far.
ken
VA beach

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew MacLintock" <a_maclintock@hotmail.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Send more humans


> >"Beth" asks
> > >> Face to Face
> > >
> > >Where at?
> > >
> >germantown, maryland
> 
> This *is* the germantown near DC and not the one on the Eastern Shore, 
> right?
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Mac
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
> http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204121814.DXL07610@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018641727.2102.ajackson@ping>

Incidentally, where does the idea of 1.3nm X-rays penetrating atmosphere come
from?  I can't find any immediate references, and was under the general
impression that beyond some windows in the near UV the atmosphere basically
absorbs everything.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204122010.DXP06343@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>
>Incidentally, where does the idea of 1.3nm X-rays 
>penetrating atmosphere come from?  I can't find any 
>immediate references, and was under the general
>impression that beyond some windows in the near UV the 
>atmosphere basically absorbs everything.
>_______________________________________________

My mistake - it's 1.3 microns.  The document is Laser Options 
For National Missile Defense, an Air Force document.  
Apparently, 1.3 microns will allow a space based laser to 
target ground targets - there are more uses for the SBL than 
just shooting missiles.  It will be an effective anti-
aircraft weapon, and other documents indicate it will be 
useful at targeting individuals.

With the fluence they plan on using, and the beam time (4 
seconds), it looks like they could literally smoke you down 
to the bones with something like that.

They also indicate in related documents that the same mirror 
that would be used to strike ground targets would be able to 
spot and aim.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <20020412.131217.-193605.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:08:54 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> Grade C   Civilian cheap/Ancient Military Surplus
> Grade B2  Military Surplus
> Grade B1  Civilian average
> Grade A2  Current Military
> Grade A1  Civilian Expedition Grade

Ah the lucky service men/women of today are blessed with grade A food,
HA!

Back in 1972 - 1975 all I ever saw, ate, and enjoyed, HA, were C Rations
packed in 1953!!!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The great gun discussion
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020412135143.009f0220@mail.attbi.com>

	Ok.  I have collected firearms all my life, hunted all my life, reloaded 
ammo all my life.  Firearms are one of main hobbies, and so is 
Traveller.  The intersection of the two is interesting and appropriate, 
accassionally.  But, seriously, guys, {and you know who you are) not 
everone is interested in our firearms hobby, or is even allowed to have a 
firearms hobby.  Or allowed to or want to hunt.  I would love to sit down 
and bullshit for hours about guns, hunting, etc, but let's stop inflicting 
this subject on innocent bystanders.
	I hope I haven't offended anyone, because I really like everyone on this 
list, but if I have please feel free to flame me at d.gyles@attbi.net.
	Ok, back to lurking, now.
	P.S. You hunt with guns!! What wimps!! Real men use a bow!!!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
In-Reply-To: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB7E982.25362.4543EE@localhost>

On 12 Apr 2002 at 10:23, John T. Kwon wrote:

> <snip three year old sandwich>
> 
> ObTrav:  Ever wondered what was in those Rations?  It's just 
> a logistical footnote in most RPGs.  Yeah, I have 5 days of 
> food.  But how hungry are you?  How well are they packaged?  
> How long can people really subsist on them?  How much did you 
> pay for them (characters will always go cheap on the rations -
> - there's no incentive not to).

Not in my games they don't. Or not often, and very seldom after the 
ones that do have been given descriptions of what it's like to eat 
jellied eels, pickled goose eggs and candied locusts (and I mean the 
insects, not the fruit). My preference is to time this so that the 
players are eating when the description of their character's meal is 
given. Thyis doesn't work on some people, as they've eaten this sort of 
thing or 'worse', but they're seldom the ones being cheap, strangely 
enough.
 
> Grade B  Civilian, expensive or Military Surplus.  8 cr per 
> meal.  OK to eat if you don't smell it or look at it.  Some 
> of the meals, by chance, will be good.  Worth arguing over 
> who gets them.  Or you can buy meals blind, open them up, and 
> throw out the ones you don't like.  Morale will suffer if you 
> have to eat these for more than a week.

Sounds like a fussy eater to me. This looks like a fairly good 
description of our rations and I can't say that there was ever a 
significant drop in morale over a 2 week exercise period. OTOH the 
boost in morale after even only a couple of days if a fresh hot meal is 
shipped/trucked/flown in is amazing.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412081916.A31020@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204122324460.17035-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> > Please...
> 
> Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their sex
> lives.

Well, yes, but this still is _Traveller_ mailing list. Sex lives also a
no-no, please. 

The point of the list kind of gets lost, if I have to delete 80% of the
posts as off-topic. B-/

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a
 starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411151634.0209ac08@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:52 PM 4/10/2002, Texas Redshift wrote:
>Starship Insurance - Theft and Casualty - Claims

Good post.  A couple of points to think about: one of them being the 
general piracy scenario (but that's not one I want to go into now).  The 
other being the definition of when the ship becomes salvage (versus the 
recovery of stolen property).  Hopefully someone with better knowledge of 
maritime law can chime in here, but the rule of thumb that I've used IMTU 
goes as follows:

If the ship was stolen, and later recovered in any sort of operable 
condition, it's stolen property and not salvage, and legally belongs to 
whomever is the owner.  If someone assists in recovering the ship for the 
owners, there is generally some type of reward involved; most larger ship 
owners and insurers make sure that their reward policies are well-known, 
since this helps in recovering stolen ships.

A stolen ship should become salvage only after a reasonably long period of 
time (given the lifetimes of Traveller starships).  A stolen ship may also 
become eligible for salvage if the owner formally files papers to abandon 
the ship.  Companies (particularly insurers) may do this if it has tax 
advantages.  An insurance company with a large portfolio of stolen ships 
may choose to take the write-off and tax benefit of abandonment rather than 
hold the ships until they become salvage automatically.

The company would have to make a decision about the chance of recovering 
the ship (and it's expected value if recovered) versus the value of the tax 
shelter in writing the ship off.  This could be a useful adventure hook; 
freelance salvage companies probably scan the list of abandoned ships as 
they are published, because those ships are now "fair game" and any 
proceeds no longer have to be shared with the insurance company.  The list 
is probably just that - but a salvage company with good research 
connections may occasionally be able to recover such a ship where the owner 
could or would not.

If the ship was abandoned due to any sort of disaster or accident which 
made it inoperable, uninhabitable and/or a hazard to navigation, then it 
becomes salvage.  If it is ever recovered (for parts or to be repaired and 
returned to service) it would become (after a bit if paperwork) the legal 
property of whomever salvaged it.

This leads to some interesting adventure hooks: if at all possible without 
undue hazard to life, an agent of the ship owner (generally the 
owner-aboard, captain, or crew) or the insurer (generally an agent or 
freelancer hired for the purpose) must remain aboard a damaged ship so that 
it does not become salvage.  This could involve the PCs in many ways - for 
example, a ship owner or insurance company could hire them to spend some 
time aboard a damaged and otherwise abandoned ship.  They'd start out in 
vacc suits, and probably would want to seal and re-pressurize some 
compartment so they would have a place to un-suit during their stay.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:04:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:04:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204122010.DXP06343@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018645406.4851.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> My mistake - it's 1.3 microns.

Ok, that's more familiar, that's actually near IR.

Oh, if you want a really insane tech option (which real people are vaguely
considering), Hf-178m2 lasers make a neat gamma ray laser option which people
are really studying.  Some benefits:

2.6 MeV photons don't have remotely interesting diffraction problems at normal
combat ranges.  a 1mm lens, for a 1mm beam, retains basically full focal
ability out to 100 km.

Gamma rays, due to high penetration (90% reduction in about an inch of steel)
can efficiently deposit energy well below the normal surface layers, thus
significantly improving the ability to fire through both atmosphere and armor. 
A 10 kilojoule beam should be plenty to kill through quite a bit of armor.

Hf-178m2 stores a lot of energy -- on the order of a gigajoule per gram -- thus
solving a lot of the energy storage problems.  It would need some power input
to trigger lasing, but probably considerably less than the output.

Based on how x-ray lenses are designed (low incidence angle deflection), a
gamma ray lens would probably be a thin metal-walled tube, thus actually
resembling a gun, rather than resembling a flashlight.

Disadvantages: Hf-178m2 is radioactive, half-life 31 years.  Assuming you need
a stored energy of 10 megajoules, carrying an unshielded power source next to
your skin for a month would expose you to a mean radiation dose of about 10,000
rads.  Using real materials, I'd want to wrap it in around 2 cm of iridium,
which would add more than a kilogram to the weight of the weapon.  With
Traveller materials, just wrap it in bonded superdense (in fact, the barrel is
probably bonded SD as well); assuming bonded SD is 14x as good radiation
shielding as steel, half a centimeter is enough shielding.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204122116.DXS00114@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
<snip radioactive death>

ObTrav:  I was wondering how many rads someone has to take to 
be a "prompt" casualty (and probably a fatality, pretty 
soon).  Yes, there are some fairly generic rules (see Gurps: 
Space or Ultra-Tech I'm not sure).  I'd be interested in some 
house rules, because radioactivity has got to occur around 
fusion powerplants, in space, etc.  It's a Traveller kind of 
thing.

I keep hearing around 20,000 rads, but I've also heard that 
someone cooked like that can linger for a day or so.  There 
were some accidents with the Therac-25 machine where people 
were accidentally given the maximum output of the machine 
because of software errors.  Some of the doses were in that 
range.

Also, it's not clear how they calculate dosage.  In the 
accident for the Therac, they describe radiation through a 
very small cross-section of the body, but also describe a 
calculated "whole-body" dose.

If shielding worked that well per your gadget, then it would 
be possible to build a small short range weapon that 
consisted of shielding, a source that could produce a 20,000 
rad/sec emission, and a shutter.

I don't think that there's a handwave for "my body is dead 
and I don't know it yet".
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204122116.DXS00114@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018646710.9067.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> Anthony Jackson says
> <snip radioactive death>
> 
> ObTrav:  I was wondering how many rads someone has to take to 
> be a "prompt" casualty (and probably a fatality, pretty 
> soon).  Yes, there are some fairly generic rules (see Gurps: 
> Space or Ultra-Tech I'm not sure).  I'd be interested in some 
> house rules, because radioactivity has got to occur around 
> fusion powerplants, in space, etc.  It's a Traveller kind of 
> thing.

Well, in the case of the weapon described, it wouldn't be a radiation kill,
it's just going to vaporize all the material in a 1mm channel through the body,
producing rather bullet-like effects.

The effects of high doses of radiation on humans are not well studied due to a
lack of examples, but 20,000 rads is reasonable for immediate incapacitation.

> If shielding worked that well per your gadget, then it would 
> be possible to build a small short range weapon that 
> consisted of shielding, a source that could produce a 20,000 
> rad/sec emission, and a shutter.

Well, radiation sprayers are the type of weapon that tends to get banned by
international convention, but as a short range weapon (100 meters or less)
radiation weapons are rather simple.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <200204122133.DXT01374@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson talks about radioactivity
<snip>

I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone 
can help out and pony up their house rules).

Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-
T) powerplant's energy output will be in the form of 
neutrons.  

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
References: <ML-2.3.1018646710.9067.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CB75306.59A09CC@premier.net>


Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> John T. Kwon writes:
> > Anthony Jackson says
> > <snip radioactive death>
> >
> > ObTrav:  I was wondering how many rads someone has to take to
> > be a "prompt" casualty (and probably a fatality, pretty
> > soon).  Yes, there are some fairly generic rules (see Gurps:
> > Space or Ultra-Tech I'm not sure).  I'd be interested in some
> > house rules, because radioactivity has got to occur around
> > fusion powerplants, in space, etc.  It's a Traveller kind of
> > thing.
> 
> Well, in the case of the weapon described, it wouldn't be a radiation kill,
> it's just going to vaporize all the material in a 1mm channel through the body,
> producing rather bullet-like effects.
> 
> The effects of high doses of radiation on humans are not well studied due to a
> lack of examples, but 20,000 rads is reasonable for immediate incapacitation.

According to FM 25-51, Battalion Task Force Nuclear Training, a dose of
8,000-18,000 rad is projected to cause the hapless victim to "become
completely and permanently incapacitated for performing physical tasks
within 5 minutes."  For doses over 18,000 rad, replace the word
"physical" with "any." 

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <200204122133.DXT01374@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018648147.2754.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone 
> can help out and pony up their house rules).
> 
> Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-
> T) powerplant's energy output will be in the form of 
> neutrons.  

Which is an excellent reason to avoid using D-T reactors, if anything else can
be made to work.  D-He3 can be optimized to only a few percent neutrons (caused
by incidental D-D reactions in the fuel).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 16:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 12 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fort Knox-Radcliff - Looking for Players
Message-ID: <184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a@aol.com>

--part1_184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I'm a long time traveller fan that has settled in the Radcliff/Fort Knox 
area. Looking for any fellow Traveller Players. I am experienced with 
Classic, MegaTraveller, T4, and GURPS versions of our favorite game. Contact 
me if your in the Fort Knox area. 

--part1_184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>I'm a long time traveller fan that has settled in the Radcliff/Fort Knox area. Looking for any fellow Traveller Players. I am experienced with Classic, MegaTraveller, T4, and GURPS versions of our favorite game. Contact me if your in the Fort Knox area. </FONT></HTML>

--part1_184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] eine Frage fur die deutschsprechenden Leute des TMLs
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

I need help translating a little bit of military radio talk from English or
German.  If you would like to help, please email me off list.

Vielen Dank,

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEHACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>

[Excellent comparison of 1600-1900 China and ca. 2400 Ziru Sirka deleted.]

>
>     That's part of my take on the whole problem.  The Terran Confederation
>victory over the Ziru Sirka is more along the lines of Cortez versus the
>Aztecs; i.e lots of native allies, and most decidely not a case of "Terra
>Uber Alles."

Mr. Whipsnade*:

You and Mr. Laning and I are in general agreement on this point.  Solomani,
whether Imperial or Confederate, suppress the truth of Vegan, Geonee,
Azhanti, what-have-you revolts that finally toppled the Ziru Sirka.

--Glenn

*An easy typographical error to make is Whipsnake, which is something else
again, I suppose.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8dd1a45b944@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:02 PM +1200 4/11/02, Frank Pitt wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote :
>
>>  But we are talking about security measure that are
>>  intrusive enough that the are a hassle to the day
>>  to day operation of a ship.
>
>Yes.
>
>Just as being searched for screwdrivers and penknives is
>currently a hassle in the day to day operation of an airline.
>
>>  Some people are going to know about them.
>
>Everyone will be _told_ about them. They won't be secret.

And if you can make that kind of link (we are preventing something 
that has been used to cause great loss of life), then you have a 
justification for the security measures.  But invoking intrusive 
insurance companies alone won't do it.

>
>>  Unless they are important  enough to make a _significant_
>change in costs,
>>  another company will be able to draw at least some customers
>away buy not
>>  having such intrusive requirements.
>
>The requirements are set by the SPA and the local civilian
>government, not the insurance company, as I already said :

It doesn't matter who is setting the requirements.  One still has to 
show they are justified economically.  (Though, in fact, the Imperium 
is very hands off and I _don't_ see the requirement comming here.  I 
_would_ be the insurance company, if it was justified).

>
>>  >The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
>>  >required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
>>  >may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
>>  >starport will do it (for important safety and
>>  >financial reasons,would you want an unwarranted vehicle
>>  >approaching an extremely expensve space station?), there won't
>>  >be any real choice except for the captains to take the risk
>>  >of not doing it and not go to the better starports
>>
>>  The presumption is that every insurance company will have such
>>  requirements.
>
>No, the presumption is that no insurance company will accept
>liability for an illegal ship.
>
>Because of that, if the ship owners wish to be able to recover
>the cost of their starship in the event of an accident, they will
>attempt to ensure their ship is legal at all times.

Well, the body doing the requirement, as I said above, doesn't change 
the issue of whether the requirement is needed.

>Think about the difference in damage potential between a 747 and
>a subsidized merchant.
>Then think about the greater effect that damage will have on an
>orbital starport.
>
>Security on a starship will be required to be tight to prevent
>"passengers" from taking control of the starship and flying it
>into the starport, or other targets of oppurtunity.

And the question is whether
a) Is this likely (just because some sort of terrorist act is 
possible doesn't mean that someone is trying to do it.  We didn't 
protect against the 9/11 incident because, in past, such an act 
simply wasn't likely enough.  The failure was to recognize that rise 
of those willing and able to do such a thing).  There are still 
things out there were someone could cause loss of life that we don't 
protect against.
b) What are the measures necessary to achieve this security.

Now I wasn't following the thread so I don't know what has been 
discussed on either count.  I just wanted to point out that you can't 
assume that an insurance company, or other agency, would mandate any 
security measure you can think of regardless of the need.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>

>In fact, hunters and cops seem to take "stopping power" much more seriously
than the military.

I wouldn't say "more seriously;" it's just that they have different
objectives.  The military is happy to wound an enemy soldier and take him
plus one or more other combatants out of the fight as they try to save the
one who got hit.  Hunters want to bring the animal down right away so they
don't have to chase it.  Police are often trying to protect themselves and
innocent people, so once they decide to shoot, they don't want the suspect
to get back up, or not fall at all.

Interestingly, the Colt .45 Model 1911 was designed to give American
soldiers enough stopping power to knock down an oncoming Philippino
guerilla.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
Message-ID: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1E287.5BD606E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term =
"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?

The origin is bugging me....

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1E287.5BD606E0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can anyone suggest where they first saw =
reference=20
to the Term "Ortillery" for orbital artillery?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The origin is bugging=20
me....</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1E287.5BD606E0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com> <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3CB77AE9.17CE776@mindspring.com>

Joseph Elric Smith wrote:

> Ack so close and yet so far.
> ken
> VA beach

Pungo?



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com> <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net> <3CB77AE9.17CE776@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <010301c1e282$a2382960$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Virginia Beach VA
Ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Send more humans


> Joseph Elric Smith wrote:
> 
> > Ack so close and yet so far.
> > ken
> > VA beach
> 
> Pungo?
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
>                                -Steve Martin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
References: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CB77CAC.A913834@mindspring.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> "Ortillery" for orbital artillery? The origin is bugging me....

Right here on the TML a few months back. I guess that doesn't help much.

Obtrav: Things like this probably happen with Xmail all the time.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 19:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 12 18:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com> <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net> <3CB77AE9.17CE776@mindspring.com> <010301c1e282$a2382960$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3CB781F2.33EEA6C8@mindspring.com>

Joseph Elric Smith wrote:

> Virginia Beach VA
> Ken
>
> Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [TML] Send more humans
>
> > Joseph Elric Smith wrote:
> >
> > > Ack so close and yet so far.
> > > ken
> > > VA beach
> >
> > Pungo?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> > www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> > I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
> >                                -Steve Martin
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Yes, I'm in Pungo borough. You?


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 19:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri Apr 12 18:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <3cb77b2c.15566185@post.demon.co.uk>

Richard Huxton <red@archonet.com> writes:

>I had a sudden vision of a jump-capable planet working its way around =
the=20
>galaxy sucking gas giants dry between jumps.

Using HG2, rather than Book 2.  Afraid I missed the price target
slightly, but cost overruns are inevitable on a project of this scope.
;-)

Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =20

MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
78,886,000,000,000,000,000 tons
Crew=3D394,428,000,000,000,000
TL=3D13

Passengers=3D0 Low=3D0 Cargo=3D1,498,825,000,000,000,000 tons
=46uel=3D34,710,000,000,000,000,000 EP=3D(lots) Agility=3D0 Marines=3D0

I didn't fit armament, but there's lots of spare cargo space to play
with.  This ship can also be supplied with a fuel shuttle which,
coincidentally enough, looks rather like a moon....

The crew needed for the ship is a little steep, since it needs about
65 million times the population of present-day Terra.  Also, my
geometry is extremely rusty, but I'm right in thinking that 4/3 pi r^3
is the formula for volume of a sphere, aren't I?  (And that Earth's
radius is 6,412,000m).

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018630776.524.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <ML-2.3.1018630776.524.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020413123016.B12650@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> (Tim: I think you gave vaporization energy in calories, not joules).

Ick!  No, I just mistyped 2.3e5 instead of 2.3e6 joules per kilogram
for latent heat of vaporization :/ Of course, that means that the
original 6.8kJ calculation was even further off.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chem Det Missiles
References: <20020410050411.0205627AA5@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB798C4.4E90DEB3@earthlink.net>

Question for the list:

Has anyone developed any design rules for chem-det missiles
in a rulesset other than GURPS?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018641727.2102.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204121814.DXL07610@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <ML-2.3.1018641727.2102.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020413123527.C12650@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Incidentally, where does the idea of 1.3nm X-rays penetrating
> atmosphere come from?

I expect it's a typo for 1.3 um.  Of course, you need handwave
focussing to get a 1mm spot size with such a wavelength in a
pistol-sized weapon past 20 metres or so, but that's not problem for
Traveller.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB75306.59A09CC@premier.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1018646710.9067.ajackson@ping> <3CB75306.59A09CC@premier.net>
Message-ID: <20020413124722.D12650@freeman.little-possums.net>

John Groth wrote:
> According to FM 25-51, Battalion Task Force Nuclear Training, a dose
> of 8,000-18,000 rad is projected to cause the hapless victim to
> "become completely and permanently incapacitated for performing
> physical tasks within 5 minutes."

Yep.  Good if you want to make sure someone dies rather soon, but not
as good if they're actively shooting at you *right now*.

Note: For gamma rays, a whole-body dose of 18000 rads works out to an
absorbed energy of about 15 kJ.  I reckon absorbing 15 kJ of laser or
kinetic energy would "completely and permanently incapacitate" the
victim pretty quickly too.

A nuclear damper in the area is probably going to nullify a radiation
weapon based on decay of radioactive isotopes.  Not that I'm saying
that's the only way to build a radiation weapon, of course, but
something to be aware of.  If set to accelerate decay, it might even
melt down the weapon with disastrous consequences to the wielder.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 21:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Doug C.)
Date: Fri Apr 12 20:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
References: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <3CB77CAC.A913834@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB7A9FD.3BD6AF65@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hmmm,
Seems to me there is a ref in 'The Spinward Marches Campaign'
Douglas

alan spik wrote:

> MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> > Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> > "Ortillery" for orbital artillery? The origin is bugging me....
>
> Right here on the TML a few months back. I guess that doesn't help much.
>
> Obtrav: Things like this probably happen with Xmail all the time.
>
> --
> Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
>                                -Steve Martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 21:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 20:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
Message-ID: <200204130346.DYF01090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ortillery?

I saw it in Dirtside, a game to go with Full Thrust.

But I may have seen it in an SF novel before.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 22:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Fri Apr 12 21:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413085805.02756ec8@pop3.norton.antivirus>

At 01:05 AM 13/04/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term "Ortillery" 
>for orbital artillery?
>
>The origin is bugging me....

First I saw of it was in 'GT-Ground Forces'.
Hated it at first, but the term has grown on me.

Andrei Nikulinsky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 22:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Fri Apr 12 21:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001201c1e2a4$8e34e670$2f7de40c@loki>

Maray Rijam to some and Arkers Ayerin to others:

has been off the list for a few days and close to a grand in messages
but he already sees some good stuff. He'll have Mark Ayers respond to
the best of 'em as soon as he gets caught up. Now if the damn exorcist
could get Mosiac Tapestry and Eslaan Marakyr and Ark Ramsey and James
Richard Walker III and Farquhar McPhar and a few more alter egoes to
share in the duties. Hmmm?

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 23:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 12 22:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <F209IlOAPE3EzbwJp8k00003548@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone
can help out and pony up their house rules)."

     "Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-T) 
powerplant's energy output will be in the form of neutrons."


Mr. Kwon,

     This one's sort in my baliwick, the shielding bits that is.  I won't 
even attempt to guess-timate the energy range fusion-produced neutrons will 
have, but I'll assume (gulp) they won't be too far off from fission 
generated ones.
     The short story is that you'll need some heavy shielding, but not a bad 
as the equivalent in gamma radiation will require.  The shielding you choose 
should have LOTS of hydrogen in it as hydrogen atoms will slow, reflect, and 
eventually stop neutrons better than anything else.
     One nasty side effect of neutron radiation will be the eventual 
deterioration of the materials your power plant is made of.(The early 
embrittlement of fission reactor vessels due to neutron bombardment is the 
reason some plants in the US have been decommisioned ahead of schedule.)  
Annual maintenance might involve detection and replacement of components 
effected by neutron exposure.
     GURPS Compedium II has servicable rad rules.  IIRC, there are some MT 
rules in a DGP Digest issue that deal with exposure rather exhaustively.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 23:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri Apr 12 22:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
In-Reply-To: <3CB7A9FD.3BD6AF65@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEEOEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

> MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> > Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> > "Ortillery" for orbital artillery? The origin is bugging me....
>
> Right here on the TML a few months back. I guess that doesn't help much.
>
> Obtrav: Things like this probably happen with Xmail all the time.
-----------
There was a description in the JTAS Issue number 9 page 21 This is the issue
which first described the organisation of the Duke of Reginas Huscarles. The
unit had  an attached ortillery squadron consisting of 3 system defence
boats. The unit at this time also had a squadron of 10 50dt single place
fighters and 2 50dt dual place fighters in the units flight HQ

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 23:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 22:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <200204130523.DYJ00139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" says
>
>     The short story is that you'll need some heavy 
>shielding, but not a bad as the equivalent in gamma 
>radiation will require.  The shielding you choose 
>should have LOTS of hydrogen in it as hydrogen atoms will 
>slow, reflect, and eventually stop neutrons better than 
>anything else.

Some of the neutrons need to be captured and converted to 
thermal energy - probably the liquid lithium blanket we 
always hear about.  After that, polyethylene, and lots of it.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 00:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (nellkyn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 23:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
References: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <006001c1e2b7$f0047100$81e868d5@k5k9u6>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1E2C0.20DF7C40
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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First edition of the Dirtside wargames rules by Ground Zero Games. Sorry =
I don't know what year they were published but it was prior to 1989, if =
my memory serves me correctly. Try contacting GZG directly as Jon =
Tuffley may be able to let you know where he first heard the term. =
Failing that, the GZG Mailing list may be able to help.

Off to TravCon in 15 minutes. See you there if you're coming.

Neil
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: MJ Dougherty=20
  To: tml@travellercentral.com=20
  Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 1:05 AM
  Subject: [TML] Ortillery


  Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term =
"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
  =20
  The origin is bugging me....

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1E2C0.20DF7C40
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>First edition of the Dirtside wargames =
rules by=20
Ground Zero Games. Sorry I don't know what year they were published but =
it was=20
prior to 1989, if my memory serves me correctly. Try contacting GZG =
directly as=20
Jon Tuffley may be able to let you know where he first heard the term. =
Failing=20
that, the GZG Mailing list may be able to help.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Off to TravCon in 15 minutes. See you =
there if=20
you're coming.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Neil</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk" =
title=3Dmartinjd@globalnet.co.uk>MJ=20
  Dougherty</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:tml@travellercentral.com"=20
  title=3Dtml@travellercentral.com>tml@travellercentral.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, April 13, 2002 =
1:05=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [TML] Ortillery</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can anyone suggest where they first =
saw reference=20
  to the Term "Ortillery" for orbital artillery?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The origin is bugging=20
me....</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1E2C0.20DF7C40--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 01:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Sat Apr 13 00:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [Request] Black War Ships, statistics/history
Message-ID: <LAW2-F143KWtXgzyKyF00003ac6@hotmail.com>

Hi,

I'm interested in if possible/legal obtaining a copy of the article in 
Challenge 60, which covered the history/stats of the "Black War" ships 
produced in the lead up to the collapse. Either a .txt or .pdf file is 
acceptable.

Graham

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 02:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 01:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204110412.g3B4CU601389@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20412.221249.4a6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard writes:
>> The problem is, different things depend on *different* ratios. 
>> 
>> Some depend on things like the charge to mass ratio of particles.
>> Others depend on things like the ratios of the *squares* of of things.
>> And some are things like square roots. Or weirder ratios. 
>> 
>> You *can't* make them all match. 
>
> Even if all four fundamental forces & inertia (i.e. apparent
> mass) drop simultaneously by the same factor? Wouldn't then
> the ratios between these values (and those other values based
> on them) all stay the same? -Jim

As an example, a lot of things depend on the fine structure constant.
Which contains things like the *square* of the charge of the electron.

Which means that if you halve the value of the charge, the value of the
fine structure constant drops to one-quarter.

So the ratios of stuff that depend on the value of things drops to 1/2,
but stuff that depends on the *square* of the values drops to 1/4.
Making one set of properties *twice* as big relative to the other.

There are other things that depend on stuff like the 3/2 power of
various forces...

So, no, you can't adjust the properties at all without making
*something* different. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 02:06:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 01:06:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20412.223302.9s3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Apart from that, your goal is to have the behaviour of atoms (and more
>> complex systems) behave in the same way as before inertial
>> suppression, correct?  This requires more than just changing the
>> strength of forces.
>
> The goal was to theoretically examine inertial suppression as a
> means for making high accelleration (say anywhere from 50g to 1000g)
> doable for a STL-based RPG, so that we'd be able to have speedy
> interstellar travel from a subjective viewpoint (a few days to a few
> weeks from the viewpoint of the crew, although it would be years
> or even decades from the viewpoint of those not taking the trip).
>
> In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
> both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
> physics as we know it, and both of you know a lot more about
> physics than I do, so it seems that I'm going to have to relent
> and give up on this idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes
> infeasible, and we're left with FTL (which has already been done
> to death). Ah well... -Jim

The thing is, you are stuck on the idea of inertial suppression. It's
possible to compensate for acceleration forces, *without* messing with
inertia.

If you can generate artificial gravity of some sort, then you can
neutralize acceleration up to the point where the acceleration equals
the max strength of the artifical gravity. 

Likewise, if your drive uses forces similar to gravity, in that they
act evenly on all particles composing the ship, there won't be any
*apparent* acceleration. 

What causes trouble with acceleration is the fact that it's being
transmitted to the contents of the ship by the structure of the ship
(ie drive pushes on drive mounts, drive mounts push on load-bearing
framework & hull, frame and hull push on decks, decks push on crew). 

So if the drive generates a *field* that affects all of the ship
equally, then each atom (actually each subatomic particle) is pushed
*directly*. 

So the effect is that you are in free fall. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 02:06:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 01:06:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20412.224526.0W9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
>> the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
>> a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
>> strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
>> hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
>> when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
>> decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
>> just one simple example.
>> 
>> Hence inertial suppression requires more than just changing the
>> strength of forces.  If you want the atoms to behave the same way, you
>> need to alter fundamental constants as well.
>  
> Why does h influence the size of the atom?

Because Planck's constant is the basis of all quantum effects. It's how
"grainy" the universe is. Change it and you change the size of the
"orbits" of the electrons. 

> Also, how do we know that h is a fundamental constant and not
> dependant on the factors we might be changing (i.e. fundamental
> forces) with the intertial suppression scheme?

We don't. But so far all attempts to come up with theories (hypotheses,
if you want to be picky) that will explain experimental data and
observations we already have but have h be a "side effect" of something
else.

Or to put it another way, h is a *measurement* of how energy & time
relate or position and momentum relate.

> Are you saying that by reducing the mass, the orbitals of the electrons
> are going to be larger?

Sort of. The compton wavelength of the electron is h/(me*c) where h is
Planck's constant, me is the mass of the electron, and c is the speed
of light.

Lower the mass of the electron and the wavelength gets longer. Which
means the electron is more smeared out. Since the "orbitals" are just a
simpler way of looking at the way the wavelength of the electron
achieves a "resonance" at given distances (ie you could think of the
orbitals as being the distances where the "orbit" is one, two, three,
etc wavelengths long) changing the wavelength changes the size of the
orbit...

> I'm not completely sure how plank's constant enters into this.

See the above. Remember, particles also act like waves. Planck's
constant determines how "big" the waves are.

> If you say you are reducing the effect of an electronic charge by the
> same percentage that you are reducing the mass, all should be good,
> even if that means plank's constant has changed, which, I admit, I
> was hoping to avoid... but when you mentioned that you created a
> set of mechanics which worked perfectly well w/ all the constants
> changing... hmm.

Yes, but the thing is, the set of changes essentially amount to
changing the scale of the universe. Whoopee. No one *inside* would be
able to tell the difference.

> I'm thinking that perhaps these constants come out of evaluating
> quantities such as the size of an atom.... in other words, perhaps
> ZPF taming (inertial suppression & fundamental force suppression)
> would end up modifying these so-called constants. But I don't know
> enough about plank's to really make that assessment. Basically, what
> I'm driving at here, is if you dropped the values of the fundamental
> forces, would planck's constant also change as a result of that? If
> so, then we've got a bit of a squirrely situation which might just
> work mathematically, but which would make your average physics
> doctorate have a cow.

There actually *are* people who've tried to work out what the universe
would be like if the values of various fundamental constants were
different. And it turns out that anything other than truly miniscule
changes will result in physics such that *matter* won't exist. 

As I recall, one of the common results is that no atoms other than
"protium" (H1) could exist. All because of interactions between the
different constants.

> Well, I'm sorta torn between this idea and Alcubierre's FTL (space
> warping) idea, but we've discussed that one a few months ago, and
> if I remember correctly, you made the contention that it leads to
> wormholes and time travel, which we really don't want to deal with.
> That's (a small) part of the reason I was hoping to use this inertial
> suppression idea instead, but if it can't be explained in a way that
> a physics major would say... "hmm... interesting... and I can't really
> disprove it either... nor does it lead to ridiculous & exploitable
> technologies" then maybe it shouldn't be used. I'm shooting for
> something with a hard-SF feel. If we wanted soft-SF, we'd use
> hyperspace and quasispace from starcon2.

Ok, FTL *must* lead to time-travel. Period. No way out.

Because of the way time and space are related, *any* pair of events A &
B such that the "interval" (the 4d space-time equivalent of distance in
3d space) between them is "FTL" (ie light couldn't get from the
location of A to the location of B in the time between the two events)
*is* time travel in at least one frame of reference.

That is, for observers moving at some speed relative to A & B, B will
occur before A. 

And no, this is *not* a mere matter of observatiuon. *Correcting* for the
relative motion, B happens first.

It's a matter of geometry. Completely unavoidable. Things like going
thru another universe don't help, because it doesn't matter *how* you
get from A to b faster than light, just that you *did*. 

So you just have to live with it. 

In Traveller, it's moderately difficult to travel into the past.
Because the jump drive is "slow" enough that you'd have to get ships
moving at a fair fraction of lightspeed to get them into the past.

Also, just because time travel is possible doesn't mean it is *useful*.

Assuming global casuality is preserved (ie effects always have causes,
even if some observers see them in reverse order) but local causality
isn't (ie some observers see effects before causes), then you can
travel in time, but you can't *change* anything. 

So if you went back to last week to try to stop yourself from doing
something, *something* would happen. You might break your leg, or get
arrested for jaywalking or something. 

But if you went to last week somewhere *else*, you'd have some
freedom, because you wouldn't *know* what the past was *there*. 

Check out Dr. Robert Forward's novel Timemaster for a wormhole based
FTL drive that allows time travel and complies with this sort of
restrictions.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 03:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 02:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <B8DD422F.3A0F2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all.

I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
plug it in and get the cost in Credits.

See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to

http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 05:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Apr 13 04:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cb77b2c.15566185@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
 <3cb77b2c.15566185@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020413131941.21300d11.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> The crew needed for the ship is a little steep, since it needs about
> 65 million times the population of present-day Terra.

Not really.

Consider that the entire volume is used, compared to just the surface.

You didn't fit a 6G manuever drive. I'm dissappointed  :-)

I really, really have to do some FF&S calculations. I think that the
staterooms should fit well into the volume, even leaving space for other
machinery.

On a serious note: Really large ships need some kind of internal rapid
transit system. Has anyone played around with numbers for this? Just
designing tunnels of a certain diameter and making a subway system should
work fine.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 05:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Sat Apr 13 04:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] Website update - Links page refreshed
Message-ID: <8A25820D-4ED0-11D6-8747-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support
http://www.bits.org.uk/

Another website update - thank you to a number of people who pointed out 
that there were a large number of links that didn't work anymore. As a 
result, I've just checked and updated the links.

Additions include Traveller Central, the TML archives, Solsec, 
Quiklink.... Thanks to Tod Glenn and Mark Urbin for the suggestions they 
gave me in January (!!).

Deletions include Halfway Station and the Missouri Archive. In the case of 
the latter, does anyone know where it's gone or have an email address for 
Joe heck. I'm willing to put the material up at BITS but need to get hold 
of it first.

If you have a website you think should be there - Traveller, SF or retail 
related* - let me know.

*retailers get there if they either stock Traveller or BITS or will order 
the material in.

Cheers,

Dom
BITS webmaster
webmaster@bits.org.uk

---------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com----------
     MacOS X 10.1 - Unix with Style
"Reality, is something that you rise above..
We don't see things as they are,  we see them as we are."
Rich - Marillion - .com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat Apr 13 05:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] Website update - Links page refreshed
In-Reply-To: <8A25820D-4ED0-11D6-8747-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEGMDKAA.tml@downport.com>

http://traveller.mu.org/ the Missouri Archive

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Dominic Mooney
Deletions include Halfway Station and the Missouri Archive. In the case of
the latter, does anyone know where it's gone or have an email address for
Joe heck. I'm willing to put the material up at BITS but need to get hold
of it first.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 07:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr 13 06:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a  starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020411151634.0209ac08@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <DAV14LEGhUOjO0L6WkQ00004c57@hotmail.com>


> Good post.

Thank you, sir.

>A couple of points to think about: one of them being the
> general piracy scenario (but that's not one I want to go into now).

Same here, actually.  My main purpose here is to use the pirate scenario to
illuminate certain ideas concerning insurance and (later on) litigation.  I
have no interest in proving how many pirates can dance on the head of a pin.
<g>

>The
> other being the definition of when the ship becomes salvage (versus the
> recovery of stolen property).  Hopefully someone with better knowledge of
> maritime law can chime in here, but the rule of thumb that I've used IMTU
> goes as follows:

<Followed by five paragraphs chocked full of Traveller gaming goodness.>

I like the way you handle salvage IYTU.  I especially like the "Ownership
Abandoned" list put out by insurance companies for tax purposes.

After scrying using the Orb of Google, it appears that we may both mean the
Law of Finds rather than salvage.

Salvage appears to be recompense for the rescue or recovery of a vessel or
property for which ownership can be established.  In many cases, this
compensation is such that simply giving the salvor salvaged property is the
best way to straighten things out.

Law of Finds would seem to apply where ownership can't be determined in a
reasonable period of time, or ownership has been abandoned.  Law of Finds
basically says "Finders keepers, losers weepers."  You find it - you keep
it.

Note also that special cases seem to apply to historical shipwrecks and
military vessels.

http://www.cpanet.freeserve.co.uk/salvagelaw.htm

www.law.cornell.edu/background/amistad/salvage.html

http://law.freeadvice.com/admiralty_maritime/salvage_and_treasure/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lasalle/owners.html

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 07:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr 13 06:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Images - Visual goodies for Traveller games
Message-ID: <DAV582gNDSWnV8u622h00004bc9@hotmail.com>

Not to mention some genuinely fascinating stuff.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DD422F.3A0F2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>

At 02:02 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Greetings all.
>
>I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
>currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
>CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
>plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
>
>See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
>
>http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html

I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:19:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:19:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Russian translation?
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080300.009fb870@mindspring.com>

Quick question for Trojan Reach.

What is the correct translation of New Moscow?  In Anglic characters, please.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Russian translation?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080300.009fb870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB84D28.11DDCBDC@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> Quick question for Trojan Reach.
> 
> What is the correct translation of New Moscow?  In Anglic characters, please.

Novaya Moskva.

In as close to Cyrillic as ASCII allows, "HOBARA MOCKBA", where the "R"
is reversed to become the Cyrillic "ya."

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DD9BDF.3A104%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:05 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
>> I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
>> currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
>> CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
>> plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
>> 
>> See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
>> 
>> http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> 
> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> 

What browser are you using?  What currency did you try to convert?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB84E2C.D57685D0@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 02:02 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Greetings all.
> >
> >I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
> >currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
> >CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
> >plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
> >
> >See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
> >
> >http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> 
> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.

Well, things were less expensive when Traveller first came out.... ;-)

I get the same results, regardless of currency tried.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB84E2C.D57685D0@premier.net>
Message-ID: <B8DD9D45.3A108%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:26 AM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:

>> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> 
> Well, things were less expensive when Traveller first came out.... ;-)
> 
> I get the same results, regardless of currency tried.

Are you using commas in the amount?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DD9D45.3A108%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB8507B.5ABAC1B9@premier.net>


Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> on 4/13/02 8:26 AM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:
> 
> >> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> >
> > Well, things were less expensive when Traveller first came out.... ;-)
> >
> > I get the same results, regardless of currency tried.
> 
> Are you using commas in the amount?

No, I'm not.  (Should I?)  And to answer the question you asked Doug,
I'm using Netscape Navigator 4.78.


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DD9BDF.3A104%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB85132.3D63F4E5@mindspring.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/13/02 8:05 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
> >> I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
> >> currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
> >> CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
> >> plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
> >>
> >> See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
> >>
> >> http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> >
> > I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> >
>
> What browser are you using?  What currency did you try to convert?
>
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

I'm getting Cr 0 also. 1 to 1e6 Cr. With or without commas, periods, etc....

Obtrav: The exchange rate for TL 8 systems without regular interstellar commerce
SUCKS!


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB85132.3D63F4E5@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:39 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

> 
> I'm getting Cr 0 also. 1 to 1e6 Cr. With or without commas, periods, etc....
> 
> Obtrav: The exchange rate for TL 8 systems without regular interstellar
> commerce
> SUCKS!

again.  Need platform and browser.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDA624.3A114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:50 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> on 4/13/02 8:39 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I'm getting Cr 0 also. 1 to 1e6 Cr. With or without commas, periods, etc....
>> 
>> Obtrav: The exchange rate for TL 8 systems without regular interstellar
>> commerce
>> SUCKS!
> 
> again.  Need platform and browser.


Naturally, there is a bug in older version of Netscape's JavaScript that
I'll have to code around.

Version 6.0 works fine, or course.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DDA624.3A114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:08:53AM -0700
References: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <B8DDA624.3A114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020413101359.A27360@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:08:53AM -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> Naturally, there is a bug in older version of Netscape's JavaScript that
> I'll have to code around.

You might want to write the thing as a Perl ( or Python or Ruby or...)
CGI.  This a good way to eliminate such issues, since CGI is a much
more standard interface.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The age of chivalry is gone.  That of sophisters, economists and
calculators has succeeded; and the glory of Europe is extinguished
forever.   --Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020413101359.A27360@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B8DDA982.3A117%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 9:13 AM, Robert A. Uhl at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:08:53AM -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>> 
>> Naturally, there is a bug in older version of Netscape's JavaScript that
>> I'll have to code around.
> 
> You might want to write the thing as a Perl ( or Python or Ruby or...)
> CGI.  This a good way to eliminate such issues, since CGI is a much
> more standard interface.

But slower.  Just being quick and dirty.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits? Fixed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDA9B2.3A118%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:05 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

> At 02:02 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>> Greetings all.
>> 
>> I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
>> currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
>> CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
>> plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
>> 
>> See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
>> 
>> http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> 
> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> 

I fixed the code to work around a bug in older versions of netscape.  Please
try again.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 11:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Sat Apr 13 10:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: An Army marches on its stomach
References: <20020412150305.5859C27AC9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB866AF.A3E0F8AB@earthlink.net>

Mike asked:
>
> What do our lovely Ex Mil Travs think of this recent development?
>
> Mikey

Well, I'm not ex-mil but I am wondering just what effects the humectants
will have on the moisture-laden human gastro-intestinal system over a
period of time.

Yeah, let's just try a BM with something that doesn't absorb moisture
easily. Then again, it just may help the males in the military
understand
child birth a little better.
 
> PS You just know that someone is going end up eating the moisture sachet
> at one point. 

Naturally.

> PPS Can someone please translate what 'acceptable' actually means in the
> context of below. 

"Acceptable" as in they don't have to eat it all the time?


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 11:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Apr 13 10:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 11:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 10:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDB8E2.3A16C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 10:13 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61

Can you try again?  I changed some code and it seems to be fixed.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 12:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 11:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20413.101338.3x0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet...
> or even the moon?

size 7 planet is roughly 5,600,000 meters in radius. Or 748e18 m^3
volume. Or 55e18 dtons (at 13.5 m^3 per dton).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 12:17:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 11:17:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020411155818.5b11fc3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20413.101809.8V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Christopher Pratt wrote:
>> What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet... or
> even
>> the moon?
>
> Calculations for Luna follow:
>
> Using a diameter of 3.476 E+6 meters:
>
> Volume: 1.759 E+20 cubic meters

No. Volume is 4/3 pi r^3. You used diameter instead of radius. 

22e18 m^3

> Displacement: 1.257 E+19 displacement tons

1.6e18

> Surface area: 3.796 E+13 square meters

37.9e12 m^2

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204122116.DXS00114@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.112406.5e1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I keep hearing around 20,000 rads, but I've also heard that 
> someone cooked like that can linger for a day or so.  There 
> were some accidents with the Therac-25 machine where people 
> were accidentally given the maximum output of the machine 
> because of software errors.  Some of the doses were in that 
> range.
>
> Also, it's not clear how they calculate dosage.  In the 
> accident for the Therac, they describe radiation through a 
> very small cross-section of the body, but also describe a 
> calculated "whole-body" dose.
>
> If shielding worked that well per your gadget, then it would 
> be possible to build a small short range weapon that 
> consisted of shielding, a source that could produce a 20,000 
> rad/sec emission, and a shutter.
>
> I don't think that there's a handwave for "my body is dead 
> and I don't know it yet".

Doses above 600(?) rads will kill. But it'll take weeks to years. 

But as a rule of thumb, doubling the dosage halves the time to death.
And vice versa.

And unlike what we see in far too much SF on TV and in movies, there's
no sharp demarcation between "you're dead" and "you'll be ok".

Heck, if you use that rule of thumb I mentioned above, you'll find that
typical background counts will kill you in about 70 years. <g>

Oh yeah, most dosage stuff is LD50. That is, a "lethal in X days" dose
will kill 50% of those receiving it in that time. Some die sooner, some
die later.

We do have some data for *really* high exposures from a few accidents.
At least a couple *did* involve "prompt incapacitation" (5 min or less).

And the symptoms for that sort of dosage aren't pretty. Spewing form
both ends of the digestive tract, convulsions and other fun things.

Caring for someone who is *that* far gone is going to be really rough
on the other PCs. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:15:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:15:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.114937.2h4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Derek Wildstar says
> <snip derek's take on adjacent ships activating their 
> hyperdrive>
>
> That sounds pretty good. It means, however, that ships might 
> have a minimum separation, which affects fleet actions.

Actually, at the velocities most fleets will be moving at, and given
the danger zones of weapons, ships are *very* unlikely to be less than
*kilometers* apart, and likely tens or even hundreds of km apart.

Being able to *see* an adjacent ship in "formation" with the naked eye
will be *very* unusual. The excepts will be things like cargo and
personnel transfer operations.

> Would we also have another problem a la B5? Starting one jump 
> field within another?

Nobody knows what happens if you try. No ship that was going to try
testing that has ever been heard from again. <eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:15:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:15:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120438.DWL01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.115941.9D3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>  
>>
>>What are you looking for characterwise?
>>
> More Intel characters, especially a computer expert.

What, you have something against Motorola employees? <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:16:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:16:25 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
In-Reply-To: <20020412.131217.-193605.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20413.120658.7M5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Grade C   Civilian cheap/Ancient Military Surplus
>> Grade B2  Military Surplus
>> Grade B1  Civilian average
>> Grade A2  Current Military
>> Grade A1  Civilian Expedition Grade
>
> Ah the lucky service men/women of today are blessed with grade A food,
> HA!
>
> Back in 1972 - 1975 all I ever saw, ate, and enjoyed, HA, were C Rations
> packed in 1953!!!

Well, back in the late 60s/early 70s, I used to grab the Air Force
equivalent ("in flight meal packs") at the commissary to take on Boy
Scout camping trips. Basicly, we used them for dinner on Friday night
when we were tired after setting up camp, and didn't feel much like
putting a lot of effort into cooking. 

Some were better than others, but none were all that *bad*. And some
things, like the fruitcake and poundcake desserts were worth fighting
over. <g>

I was using a WWII vintage messkit and a WWII canteen & cup at the
time. Turned out that Lipton "instant soup" packages made exactly
enough soup for a canteen cup full of water. 

And the cans from the meal packs fit into the cup nicely too. Boil them
for a bit and they were nice and hot.

Then again, I liked most food in the school caefteria, so I may not be
the best judge of these things. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
References: <20020413111907.EC28E27AF7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB88500.956F16CB@ameritech.net>



> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:05:39 -0400
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
> Subject: Re: [TML] The "gun" debate
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> At 01:46 PM 4/12/02 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> > > From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> > >> Please...
> > > Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> > > sex lives.
> >Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
> >subscribe via the digest.
> >Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
> >mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT
> >political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to
> >keep the list Traveller focused.
> 
> Hmmm...I haven't noticed the thread discussing the politics of 
> ownership

<snip>

There were a few. Thankfully not followed up on by others. Hence my
statement, "the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT political
issues...." To be honest I may be reacting more to trolls in sig files
than to the threads themselves. 

Sorry if I've offended.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204121200450.15966-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20413.122049.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> learened that the IRS doesn't keep  old Windrone machines. So the records
> kept say on a Winblown 95v1 is not viewable by the IRS. Keep that in mind
> for an audit. Got that from the H&R block people in town.

Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system. 

The disk formats haven't changed (not the flopiy ones anyway) and the
newer programs can generally read the data files from the older ones.

>  O.K. add the different Apples, Atarai, Franklin, Osborne <sp?> and for
> the U.K. members I will mention the Speccy <Spectrum: flame wars on
> comp.sys.cbm about this one> Each had a different basic. To the point that
> they wer pretty much incompatible with each other. I know that ther were
> other models using other Basic formats and loading. I know that my
> prefered PC system uses GCR formatiing. I think another one is called MFD,
> but am not certain of the title.

FM (aka "single density") and MFM (aka "double density" and "high density").

Most "modern" floppy controller chips can't read FM disks. But a lot of
fairly recent ones can. For example, the Adaptec SCSI cards that
include a floppy controller can. 

With some easily available software I can read TRS-80 floppies on my
PC. To read Commodore or Apple GCR disks, I'd have to install the old
CopyIIPC deluxe option board in one of my systems. 

>  Now take all of those and what I missed. Add to that the IBuM system
> starting from the Pc jr. to current. All the differeent versions of the
> windoze NT and ## themes. I mean can you today on the X thing read a disk
> from a PC jr  on original media/format?

PCjr floppies used the same format as the PC. 

No idea what the X-box uses. 

What gets fun is when you need to read things like 8" floppies or the
whacko Amstrad 3" (*not* 3.5"!) floppies. Or cassette tapes, or stringy
floppies or other weird media.

I once had to recover a program by reading paper tape by *hand*. 

>> It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the
>> Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of
>> pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding
>> and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of
>> languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate,
>> lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications
>> protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of
>> getting messages into and out of the system.
>
>  Point well stated. Computer incompatibilities would make the Imperiaum
> fall apart. Before the MT saga. Pardon me for using the Commodore as an
> example platform in this part. It is however the only one that I know to
> any degree. On the concept of  being standard for msg and images. I see a
> parrel to the C= PC platform. Take this msg that I am writing. Written in
> PINE 4.44 my e-mail system. Sent out in ASCII. Though my actual system
> uses the PET ascii as it's default system. HTML though for a msg does bug
> me and a lot of people. On my system it presents all the commands as well
> as the msg. Yet I can use a prg from last year called Wave B2.9 <still
> Beta> that allows me to read in 80c HTML. In fact my book mark file is
> converted that way. JOs a free Beta Test DL also will read on screen HTML.

I have a DOS program called HTMSTRIP that takes HTML and produces a
reasonably formatted plain text file. It even puts in the "boxes" in
tables. 

>  Images: I can veiw off line GIF and JPG files. Also I can pritn them
> through Post Script and even EPS <Encapsulated Post Script> Images. There
> is a tool that I haven't had yet to use. That will convert PDF to PS for
> my use and zip it in PK2.04g zip. A format that I can also use in packing
> and unpacking. All on a 1984 PC.

There's a DOS program that'll view many image formats, including .AVI
and MPEG files, and play a lot of sound formats. 

>  As i showed above. There would be those that would create ways to use the
> systems to see the new items. Though I do have a tendency to bristle at
> the term "standard". Been a victim of that erronous ideaology many times
> in many situations. I do think that some sort of "chip" is needed for the
> interchange of Imperial  material. Though there are probaly PRGs to
> convert the material to local standards. As i have tools to convert Ascii
> to PET ascii. Or the ability to log onto a BBS or even here with Ansi
> colours. Making the material sutible for the local inhabitants and the
> systems that they are using. The question is the reverse possible? Which
> is where the  story plot originated.

Well, the idea is that there need to be publicly available standards.
Having multiple standards is merely inconvenient as long as the info
on the file formats is available. 

>  Using today as an example. Can the Windoze users here read a file that I
> make? Well some of them they can. The previously mentioned gwimport.exe
> file. But that is only for text, not the images. There are emulators if
> the file is make in that format <.D64, .D71, .D81> But only work if the
> user hs the tool to use the files. Vice 1.8 IIRC. So I would suggest that
> something in the reverse that is from local to Imperial would need to have
> ben created. Or t here is some sort of thing. Like you mentioned the Inet.
> Where the ability to collect items of interest is found in some form of
> compatible mannerism.

The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
to import and export files in those formats.

Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:16:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <200204122133.DXT01374@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.123907.8I6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson talks about radioactivity
> <snip>
>
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone 
> can help out and pony up their house rules).
>
> Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-
> T) powerplant's energy output will be in the form of 
> neutrons.  

Except Traveller fusion plants don't use the D-T reaction. They would
appear to use some form of p-p reaction.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:16:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:16:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b8dd1a45b944@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20413.124305.2I4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> And the question is whether
> a) Is this likely (just because some sort of terrorist act is 
> possible doesn't mean that someone is trying to do it.  We didn't 
> protect against the 9/11 incident because, in past, such an act 
> simply wasn't likely enough.  The failure was to recognize that rise 
> of those willing and able to do such a thing).  There are still 
> things out there were someone could cause loss of life that we don't 
> protect against.

Just a few things off the top of my head...

Within half a mile of each other locally are the following:

A major "tank farm" for petroleum products.
A factory producing chlorine and hydrogen chloride by the ton. 
A producer of liquid oxygen (with a tank several stories tall!).
A semiconductor related plant that uses large quantities of stuff like
phosphine and arsine gases. 
A residential area.

Oh yeah, tankers dock between the chlorine/HCL producer and the tank farm...

For a real scare, read the labels on those tank cars on the railroad,
then look up the hazard warnings for the materials in question.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:17:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:17:11 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20413.125426.3y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61

You should try upgrading to 4.79.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F216ap21GXYqZM8Wapp0001d245@hotmail.com>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

     "You and Mr. Laning and I are in general agreement on this point.  
Solomani, whether Imperial or Confederate, suppress the truth of Vegan, 
Geonee, Azhanti, what-have-you revolts that finally toppled the Ziru Sirka."

Mr. Goffin,

     Thank you, sir.  Having the MYMINES, Ltd. legal department agree in 
general with my proposals is certainly heartening.  It means that I may be 
actually on to something and simply not just off my medicine.

     "An easy typographical error to make is Whipsnake, which is something 
else again, I suppose."

     My spell checker keeps wanting to "correct" my nom de List to Larceny 
Whipsnake.  Of course, it also spells Traveller with only one "L".  Silly 
CPU.
     Appropo of nothing, feeding Larsen E. Whipsnade into the wondefully 
weird "Vilani by Lonnie" engine results in this jaw breaker:

     Aagarashirenedanashiramik Huugarashire

     I think we may have stumbled across the name of the Vilani ambassador 
who visited the Sol system between the 2nd and 3rd Interstellar Wars and 
reported that Terra was nothing more than a "nest of pirates."  Oddly 
enough, immediately after that visit, Ambassador Huugarashire was able to 
retire rather earlier than most Ziru Sirka civil servants thanks in part to 
a very generous bequest in the will of a long lost uncle.  Even more oddly, 
the bequest was paid in Terran Confederation sols.  All inquiries about this 
strange turn of events should be directed to the ambassador's new address 
and should also use his new title.  Please forward all correspondance and/or 
summons to "King Huugarashire, third hammock from the left, the Isle of 
Yap."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <F264Wf26myeOi1EkcZy0001ef51@hotmail.com>

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

     "Except Traveller fusion plants don't use the D-T reaction. They would 
appear to use some form of p-p reaction."


Mr. Erickson,

     I know you've posted information on the p-p reaction many times before, 
but could you do so again please?  I'd like to see what sort of particles 
we'd be dealing with using that specific reaction.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB88500.956F16CB@ameritech.net>
References: <20020413111907.EC28E27AF7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413165050.01a26eb0@192.168.0.1>

At 02:20 PM 4/13/2002 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:05:39 -0400
> > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
> > Subject: Re: [TML] The "gun" debate
> > Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > At 01:46 PM 4/12/02 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > > > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> > > > From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> > > >> Please...
> > > > Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> > > > sex lives.
> > >Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
> > >subscribe via the digest.
> > >Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
> > >mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT
> > >political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to
> > >keep the list Traveller focused.
> > Hmmm...I haven't noticed the thread discussing the politics of
> > ownership
><snip>
>There were a few. Thankfully not followed up on by others. Hence my
>statement, "the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT political
>issues...." To be honest I may be reacting more to trolls in sig files
>than to the threads themselves.

Trolling sig files...Golly!   Who would do such a thing? :-)

>Sorry if I've offended.

Perhaps someone else may have been offended, but personally, I'm pretty 
thick skinned.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 15:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 13 14:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <20020413.142703.-23853.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

Mark

On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:52:38 -0400 Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
>
> Perhaps someone else may have been offended, but personally, I'm 
> pretty thick skinned.

Oh, thick skinned huh?

What's your armor rating?

Turokan :~)

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 15:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Apr 13 14:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Images - Visual goodies for Traveller games
In-Reply-To: <DAV582gNDSWnV8u622h00004bc9@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV582gNDSWnV8u622h00004bc9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020413234102.6af49573.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> Not to mention some genuinely fascinating stuff.
> 
> http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html

*drool*

Lovely link, thanks.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 15:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Apr 13 14:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20413.101809.8V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020411155818.5b11fc3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20413.101809.8V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020413234327.7deee729.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> No. Volume is 4/3 pi r^3. You used diameter instead of radius. 

*sound of head hitting table repeatedly*

I think I had a bit too much stupid for breakfast that day...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 19:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Sat Apr 13 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEBPCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

John Kwon wrote :-
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone
> can help out and pony up their house rules).

Modified GURPS radiation rules follow (exposure levels OK, biological
effects off a bit in G:Comp 2).
Contact me off-list for d20 and MT versions (the latter may still
be available on the Freelance Traveller site).


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

------------------------------
Acute radiation exposures can have adverse effects. Check on the
table, rolling against HT every day the character is exposed to
at least 1 rad per day. Compare with the character's total
accumulated dose to see what the effects are.

Radiation Effects Table
Dose (rads)    HT Roll
5-70       : Fail :- A, onset 1d+6 hours, lasts 1 day
           : Critical Fail :-  A, onset 1d hours, lasts 1 day
71-150     : Fail :- A, 1d hours
           : Critical Fail :- D(H), HA within 24h
151-300    : Success :- A, B(-1) within 48h
           : Fail :- D(H), HA within 24h
           : Critical Fail :- E, 1d weeks
301-530    : Critical Success :- A, B(-1) within 48h
           : Success :- B(-2), C on exposure, D(H), HA within 48h
           : Fail :- E, 1d weeks
           : Critical Fail :- GI, within 48h
531-830    : All suffer A within 24h, C on exposure, E in 1d-1 weeks
           : Critical Success :- B(-2), D(E, H), HA within 24h
           : Success :- B(-3), D(E, H), HA within 24h
           : Fail or Critical Fail :- as per success, add
             GI within 24h
831-3000   : All suffer A within 12 hours, B(-3), C on exposure,
             D(E, H), GI within 12 hours, E in 3d+3 days
           : Critical Fail :- CV within 1d hours
3001-8000  : CV ; A, within 1d hours ; B(-3) ; C on exposure ;
             D(E, H, P) ; E, 1d days
8000+      : All suffer CV ; A within 1d hours and E within 4d hours.

* Key to Effects Table
A : Nausea, headache and vomitting (1d penalty to ST, DX, IQ).
Listed dice roll is for time of onset post exposure. Roll daily
against HT to recover 1 point of each attribute.
Critical success restores 2 points and means that symptoms are
controlled for that day.
Failure leads to the loss of 1 point, critical failure, 2.

B : Fatigue (penalty to ST and HT given). Roll daily to
recover 1 point of ST or HT on a critical
success. Failure loses 1 ST or HT point, critical failure loses 1
of each. Low Pain Threshold for seven days following exposure.

C : Incapacitation : -4 penalty on physical tasks for 2 days,
-2 on mental tasks for 1 day.

D : Skin changes. Erythema (E) is a mild reddening of the skin.
(H) refers to hair loss. Hair falls out within 24 hours.
(P) refers to partial thickness ("second degree") burns which do 1d damage.
Skin breakdown may ensue over the two weeks following exposure.

E : Death. Survival time from exposure without aggressive treatment
is given by the dice roll.

HA :- Haematopoietic syndrome - roll daily to prevent loss of 1 HT.
Stopped on critical success.
Hemophilia disadvantage in effect while ST, DX, IQ depressed.

GI :- Gastrointestinal syndrome - roll daily to prevent permanent
loss of 1 HT. Stopped on critical success. Characters have the Weak
Immune System disadvantage while affected, and are prone to diarrhoea
and fevers, in addition to symptoms listed above. If HT falls below 4,
teeth and nails begin to fall out.

CV :- Cerebral syndrome - 2 IQ and hits are lost within an hour
of exposure. Roll vs. HT to maintain consciousness (and prevent
loss of 1 HT on a critical success) every hour. With exposures
above 8000 rem, HT loss is irreversible. Consciousness checks
are made every hour at -2. Once consciousness is lost or HT falls
to zero, fitting ensues, then death.

* Long-term effects (months to years post exposure) :-
i. Cataracts - the threshold for development of lens opacities is a
dose of 200 rads. Make a HT check every six months, with a -1 for
every additional 100 rads of either acute or chronic exposure. On a
fail, the damage is spotted before it interferes with vision ; on a
critical fail, Blindness ensues.

ii. Dermatitis - cumulative exposures to the skin alone can cause
chronic skin changes. True radiation dermatitis is only seen at
exposure levels that would be lethal if they were whole
body doses (e.g. radiotherapy for some cancers). The skin effects
seen at the dose levels above are often permanent with chronic
exposures. In game terms, apply the Slow Healing or Reduced Hit
Points disadvantages to the relevant body area(s).

iii. Carcinogenesis - the probability of developing tumours varies
with the dose and the tissues affected ; the precise mechanisms of
initiation remain unclear as of 2001.
For example, the incidence of leukaemia peaks at 5-6 years post
exposure. Other malignancies have latencies of 15 to 60 years.

The probability of finding a clinically apparent malignancy
in any given year roughly increases with age. As a rule of thumb,
every 100 rads of radiation exposure increases the lifetime risk
by 1 percent.

Age   Probability  Very approximate dice rolls
< 15  1/3,000      30 on 5d6
< 35  1/750        24 on 4d6
< 54  1/125        22 or better on 4d6
< 75  1/30         12 on 2d6
> 75  1/60         17 or better on 3d6
(based on US cancer figures for 1980, both sexes)

For game purposes, a critical failure (18) on a HT roll means
that a malignancy has been detected. A -1 modifier applies for
every 200 rads of radiation exposure. Check once a year.

iv. Damage to Fertility
Reproductive cells are sensitive to radiation.
Dose (rads)    Effect
150            Sterility for 1-6 weeks
250            Sterility for 1-2 years
500            Permanent sterility in 75%
800            Permanent sterility in 100%



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 20:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Apr 13 19:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] landgrab questions
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEDOGHAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I've claimed Biter and was working on by landgrab and I have a few questions

What is the fleet number for the Imperial Sword World subsector fleet?
Where is it headquartered?
What is Lunion's fleet number?
Does it help out imperial forces in the Sword Worlds?



________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr 13 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of malfunction?
Message-ID: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>

Authenticity Disclaimer:  This information has not been verified by me or
anyone that I personally trust.  I do not know if the facts cited are true.

I await comment from the learned members of this group.

<Begin snip>

OFFICER SAFETY WARNING

Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) Unit Causes
Malfunction of Officer's Issue Firearm

In July 2001, an officer from the Manheim Township (Lancaster County,
Pennsylvania) Police Department had an incident where his issue firearm
malfunctioned. The Smith & Wesson, Model 4013, .40 S&W caliber,
semi-automatic pistol was found to have a magnetized firing pin, which stuck
to the side of the channel within the slide. Upon inspection, it was
determined that the entire pistol had become so magnetized that paper clips
actually stuck to any metal surface. The department armorer was able to
demagnetize the firearm with the use of a high-power, videotape-erasing unit
after complete disassembly.

When the malfunction was discovered, the officer had no idea of when or how
his pistol had become magnetized. A review of the officer's activities,
revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical office
that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During the
investigation, the officer had walked into the MRI suite that magnetized the
pistol. MRI medical personnel have detailed instructions on safety, which
include keeping metal objects away from the unit. Upon further inspection,
two additional officer's firearms were also found to have been magnetized.

RECOMMENDATION

ALL ISSUE FIREARMS SHOULD BE CHECKED FOR THIS CONDITION

Police department and medical facility security administrative personnel
should notify officers of the following:

Investigations within medical facilities could magnetize an issue firearm
rendering it inoperable.

The test to determine if a firearm has become magnetized is to place a paper
clip next to the firearm.

If the paper clip sticks to the firearm, a supervisor should be notified
immediately.

A trained department-designated officer should verify the firearm is
magnetized and the firearm should be demagnetized with the use of a
high-powered videotape-erasing unit after it has been completely
disassembled.

The firearm should be test fired prior to being returned to service.

The fact that there is no outward sign that a firearm may not function as a
result of MRI/magnetic exposure makes this problem difficult to detect.
Awareness of this situation may prevent serious or deadly consequences.

Source: Sing, Lieutenant Douglas K. Manheim Township (Lancaster County,
Pennsylvania) Police Department Revised March 2002.

<end snip>

from website

http://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/officersafetyMRI.htm

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DDB8E2.3A16C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413200302.009ee460@mindspring.com>

At 10:28 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>on 4/13/02 10:13 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > Tod Glenn wrote:
> >
> > P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61
>
>Can you try again?  I changed some code and it seems to be fixed.

Works now, nice little utility.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:08:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:08:21 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of
 malfunction?
In-Reply-To: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413200431.009efbd0@mindspring.com>

At 09:30 PM 4/13/02 -0500, you wrote:
>When the malfunction was discovered, the officer had no idea of when or how
>his pistol had become magnetized. A review of the officer's activities,
>revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical office
>that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During the
>investigation, the officer had walked into the MRI suite that magnetized the
>pistol. MRI medical personnel have detailed instructions on safety, which
>include keeping metal objects away from the unit. Upon further inspection,
>two additional officer's firearms were also found to have been magnetized.

Considering the officer had to walk past large signs warning that a BIG 
freaking magnet was in use, I think the department should charge him for 
the repairs.

I accidentally left my steel wedding ring on during my last MRI.  The damn 
thing vibrated to the point it actually became warm.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Terran/Vilani conflict (Was: Deadliness of combat)
In-Reply-To: <20020411004002.DF53927A7B@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140512410.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>     We've got the constant drum beat in canon about the Vilani "way of war"
>being brutally pragmatic.  They use hostages, have no qualms about nukes,
>target civilians, etc., etc., anything tactic that is cost effective.

What constant drum? We have _one_ reference that details Vilani war
practices, and that reference is of rather late vintage (MT) and is part
of the Forbidden Canon. If you find yourself unable to reconcile that with
the historical events of the Traveller Universe, then I'd suggest that its
the description of Vilani war practices that requires amendment.

>     The Ziru Sirka, or it's direct antecedents, were able to put the Vilani
>boot on the neck of quite a number of species and they've kept it there for
>millennia.  The fact that the Geonee, Suerrat, Syleans, et. al. are still
>being kept down at the same time the Terrans show up tells me that the
>Vilani could still get the job done.

It tells me that they didn't exterminate minor races wantonly, claims
about their ruthlessness to the contrary notwithstanding. So maybe they
weren't quite so ruthless as they are painted in _Cogs&Dogs_.

>     "The Vilani might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really
>capable of, or were under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder."
>
>     After losing the first two Interstellar Wars and visiting the Sol
>system, the Vilani should have known what the Terrans were really capable
>of.  GT:RoF also mentions that the Vilani, when faced with the bewildering
>welter of Terran cultures and genotypes, thought they were facing an
>alliance of several minor human races.  That "threat" alone should have
>spurred some sort of response.

Like a search for the other homeworlds of the alliance? I certainly can't
blame the poor Vilani governor for wanting to locate the other homeworlds
before destroying the only one he knew of. For all he knew Terra was just
the catspaw and the other races of the alliance the real threat...

>     It's the dichotomy that get's me wondering.  We've got ZS governors
>still keeping the boot on the neck of umpteen minor races, we've got the
>coreward governors arming and using Vargr mercs in political power games
>against each other, and, at the same time, we've got governor after governor
>after on the Rim behaving completely unlike the others throughout the ZS and
>losing piddling wars to a minor race nearly totally confined to a single
>system.

The Terrans made a huge effort early in the game to disperse to other
worlds precisely because they feared that Terra would be destroyed. By the
time the Vilani realized that they had a real fight on their hands, the
Terrans were no longer confined to a single system. And don't forget the
other members of that alliance of minor races...

>     "Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion sentients would do?"
>
>     But they'd done it in the past, i.e. the Sky Raiders, and were
>currently threatening to do it to others, the many minor races being held
>down, so why didn't it happen to Sol?  The Ziru Sirka had the numbers, it
>had better technology, and it was chillingly ruthless.  How did it happen to
>lose?

Well, my take is that they didn't have the numbers. If the Vilani (as I
believe) considered 50 to 500 million an ideal size for a planetary
population and deliberately kept their major worlds fstable at those
levels, Terra could actually have outnumbered all the vilani worlds in
[Vilani name for Sol Sector] Sector.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
References: <20020413111905.52B7127AF6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004701c1e367$1bb70380$705e8690@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> But if you went to last week somewhere *else*, you'd have some
> freedom, because you wouldn't *know* what the past was *there*.
>
> Check out Dr. Robert Forward's novel Timemaster for a wormhole based
> FTL drive that allows time travel and complies with this sort of
> restrictions.

A week or two back I started working on an idea for a solo game.  It's since
developed into a world design system for a non-OTU game.  I'm using a
wormhole based FTL, as it allows you to use network/area mapping, and not
bother with "uninteresting" systems.

I'm going for a very abstract system, so fudges like this aren't a problem.

(Memo to self: does "FTL radio" exist?)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Deadliness of combat
In-Reply-To: <20020412005321.E214327A98@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>    All of Holland worked for their resistance, the Germans had a devil of
>time finding collaborators there.  The Danes, from the King on down, wore
>the yellow Star of David and helped their Jews escape to Sweden.

Actually, the story goes that King Christian threatened to wear the yellow
Star of David if it was forced on Danish Jews. I'm not sure how much truth
there is in that story. Denmark's situation during the early years of
occupation was anomalous. The Germans pretended that they were in Denmark
merely to protect us against attack by the Allies and that we were their
ally. Consequently they were hampered in just what they could 'request'
the Danish government to do. For instance, Danish Jews were never required
to wear the Star of David.

Indeed, I've been told that the Allies might have treated Denmark as a
true ally of Germany if it hadn't been for three things: Free Danish
sailors volunteering in droves to serve on English ships, the rescue of
the Jews, and the efforts of the Danish Resistance.

>ObTrav - So, from the Vilani point of view, who were the "French" to the
>Terran's "Nazis" during the Interstellar Wars?  The Vegans?  Some other
>human minor race?

Well, I imagine the Dingiransmust have become pretty thoroughly 'Terranized'
over the years for them to be made the new capital.



Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:10:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:10:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120438.DWL01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DE4F27.3A29F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 9:38 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>> 
>> What are you looking for characterwise?
>> 
> More Intel characters, especially a computer expert.
> 

No way, John.  That's too much like real life (I'm an IT professional).  The
computer expert does *not* wish to play a computer expert.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204140417.EAC00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson writes:
>What, you have something against Motorola employees? <g>
>
No, just AMD.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Deadliness of combat
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>; from rancke@diku.dk on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200
References: <20020412005321.E214327A98@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020413222116.A28871@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> Denmark's situation during the early years of occupation was
> anomalous.  The Germans pretended that they were in Denmark merely
> to protect us against attack by the Allies and that we were their
> ally.  Consequently they were hampered in just what they could
> 'request' the Danish government to do.

ISTR that at one point the King of Denmark was arrested.  It took
quite a bit of German military might to defeat retainers armed with
quarter-staffs, pole-arms and swords.  Or is that another king I'm
thinking of--or purely an urban legend?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To believe in gun control, one has to believe that guns are not an
effective means of self-defense, which is why police carry them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204140424.EAD00152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
<snip the hazards near his home>

Not too far from here is the Calvert Cliffs nuclear plant.  
A "very" short distance from there is a docking platform for 
LNG (liquified natural gas) tankers.  The dock and pipeline 
is not in use at the moment, but they are talking about 
reactivating it.

I remember reading about "sublimation" accidents.  They say 
that an ocean-going LNG tanker holds the equivalent of tens 
of kilotons of explosive power.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204140424.EAD00152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DE54E0.3A2B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 9:24 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Not too far from here is the Calvert Cliffs nuclear plant.
> A "very" short distance from there is a docking platform for
> LNG (liquified natural gas) tankers.  The dock and pipeline
> is not in use at the moment, but they are talking about
> reactivating it.
> 
> I remember reading about "sublimation" accidents.  They say
> that an ocean-going LNG tanker holds the equivalent of tens
> of kilotons of explosive power.

All you need is a big ship of fertilizer.  Remember Texas City?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204140452.EAD01433@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod says
<snip Texas City>

The problem with an LNG tanker is that anyone with a .50 BMG 
rifle within 1 km can put a hole in one of the tanks.  It 
doesn't have to be a HE or HEI round.  But once that leak 
pops, there's a runaway sublimation effect that blows the 
tank open and then the whole ship goes.

There were some concerns voiced about the effect that ships 
like this might have in a confined waterway.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 23:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat Apr 13 22:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEBPCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <000301c1e373$27a9fb00$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Robert O'Connor
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 18:47
To: TML, New
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules

John Kwon wrote :-
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone
> can help out and pony up their house rules).

Modified GURPS radiation rules follow (exposure levels OK, biological
effects off a bit in G:Comp 2).
Contact me off-list for d20 and MT versions (the latter may still
be available on the Freelance Traveller site).


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

------------------------------

Damn that was a good post Robert!  Kudos.  This one gets the CDR
treatment.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 23:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 13 22:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] JTAS question
Message-ID: <20020414.013949.-343735.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

Can someone summarize for me what is covered the article "A Traveller
Bibliography" in JTAS #8?



                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 00:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Apr 13 23:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Deadliness of combat
In-Reply-To: <20020413222116.A28871@4dv.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>; from rancke@diku.dk on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200
Message-ID: <3CB9C6FE.12042.25C89E@localhost>

On 13 Apr 2002, at 22:21, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> > Denmark's situation during the early years of occupation was
> > anomalous.  The Germans pretended that they were in Denmark merely
> > to protect us against attack by the Allies and that we were their
> > ally.  Consequently they were hampered in just what they could
> > 'request' the Danish government to do.

> ISTR that at one point the King of Denmark was arrested.  It took
> quite a bit of German military might to defeat retainers armed with
> quarter-staffs, pole-arms and swords.  Or is that another king I'm
> thinking of--or purely an urban legend?

I believe that what happened is that the Germans arrived just as the 
Royal Guard was conducting a full dress parade, so the Guards 
formed a double line and commenced disciplined volley fire (it must 
have looked like something straight out of the Napoleonic wars, 
only with bolt action rifles). This took the Germans somewhat by 
surprise and several were killed, but once they recovered from the 
initial shock, they started bringing up heavy weapons at which 
point the King ran out and ordered that the Guards surrender.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 00:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 23:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204140452.EAD01433@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DE7400.3A2DE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 9:52 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> The problem with an LNG tanker is that anyone with a .50 BMG
> rifle within 1 km can put a hole in one of the tanks.  It
> doesn't have to be a HE or HEI round.  But once that leak
> pops, there's a runaway sublimation effect that blows the
> tank open and then the whole ship goes.

Sublimation?  It is LNG right?  You have to have a solid transform directly
to a gas for it to be sublimation.

Carbon Dioxide ice sublimates.

Tod
(former Chemist) 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 01:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 00:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <F264Wf26myeOi1EkcZy0001ef51@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.233341.4R2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>      "Except Traveller fusion plants don't use the D-T reaction. They would 
> appear to use some form of p-p reaction."
>
>
> Mr. Erickson,
>
>      I know you've posted information on the p-p reaction many times before, 
> but could you do so again please?  I'd like to see what sort of particles 
> we'd be dealing with using that specific reaction.

The *overall* reaction is

4 H1 -> 1 He4

I don't recall the ways that (for example) the Bethe "solar phoenix"
reaction (which involves carbon as a catalyst) works. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 01:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 00:12:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <004701c1e367$1bb70380$705e8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20413.235758.2j2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: Leonard Erickson
>> But if you went to last week somewhere *else*, you'd have some
>> freedom, because you wouldn't *know* what the past was *there*.
>>
>> Check out Dr. Robert Forward's novel Timemaster for a wormhole based
>> FTL drive that allows time travel and complies with this sort of
>> restrictions.
>
> A week or two back I started working on an idea for a solo game.  It's since
> developed into a world design system for a non-OTU game.  I'm using a
> wormhole based FTL, as it allows you to use network/area mapping, and not
> bother with "uninteresting" systems.
>
> I'm going for a very abstract system, so fudges like this aren't a problem.
>
> (Memo to self: does "FTL radio" exist?)

Since Forward's book was published, further work was done on wormholes
and time travel.

It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
builds until it collapses the wormholes. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 03:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Apr 14 02:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of malfunction?
In-Reply-To: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020414114830.26705bd4.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical
office
> that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During
the
> investigation, the officer had walked into the MRI suite that magnetized
the
> pistol.

How would this kind of problem affect gauss/railgun type weapons?

Not that any PCs would try bringing any of them through security, mind
you...

 ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 06:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 05:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204141224.EAT00139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 06:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 05:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <200204141227.EAT00280@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

(Leonard Erickson)  says
>
>I don't recall the ways that (for example) the Bethe "solar 
>phoenix" reaction (which involves carbon as a catalyst) 
>works. 
>

I thought that the CNO cycle was a relatively "slow" rate 
reaction, even if it had a lower threshold to get started.

Also, isn't the p-p reaction the intended reaction for the 
Bussard ramjet?  I keep hearing that the p-p reaction is more 
difficult to start thant the D-T reaction.  And if we're 
going to make it so difficult, why not just use He-3?
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any
> upper limit
> ("that's no moon...")

Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
gravity well, and you misjump.

Net result : you can have a J6 planet. But no one can tell where its going.
Let's call it Heisenberg.

Regards

Andy Brick

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.346 / Virus Database: 194 - Release Date: 10/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

ObTrav: Refueling in an oxygen atmosphere, of course.  

A liquified natural gas tanker poses a fire and explosion 
hazard.  Also, even though it is cryogenically cooled, a 
certain percentage of the tankage boils off every day.

I keep hearing people say that the fuel is carried in the 
form of liquid water and converted at the last minute.  This 
would seem to be inefficient, as a substantial portion of 
your tankage would not be usable fuel.  Liquid methane 
(liquified natural gas) might be a bit better than water, and 
probably what "unrefined" fuel from a gas giant would be.  
However, a significant proportion of the fuel would still not 
be hydrogen, unless the ship was using the CNO cycle.  
However, you don't need to keep putting carbon in the cycle, 
as it is reused.

Also, I have read several times in old Traveller works about 
the "L-Hyd" tank (which seems to say "liquid hydrogen" and 
not "water").  The description in the AHL supplement 
distinctly refers to the tankage on the Fuel Deck as "L-Hyd".

But I digress.  For optimum top-off, I think that refuelling 
would take place just prior to takeoff, in the same manner 
that they refuel the shuttle a few hours before takeoff. 

There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were 
topping off with LNG or L-Hyd.  If you were in atmosphere and 
someone scored a Fuel hit with a laser weapon, I'm betting 
that the ship's fuel tanks would explode.  What would have 
been a minor hit in space would be disastrous in atmosphere.  
See what happened to the fuel tank on the shuttle when the 
SRB played a flame on it.  One fuel hit in atmosphere and 
WHAM.

Also, I'm wondering what happens if the fuel tanks adjoin 
crew spaces, as they do in so many deck plans.  Let's say you 
depressurize before combat, and close bulkhead doors.  One 
compartment or more could be filled with fuel if the ship is 
hit in certain ways.  Equipment and personnel in these areas 
would be instantly destroyed/killed by cryogenic liquid.  

I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot 
of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and 
ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how 
it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only 
lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure - 
the fuel is subdivided into several large tanks, perhaps more 
on large combat vessels - but not on a small ship, which 
might have at most two separate tanks.  It would be hard to 
effectively pump fuel from a holed tank, if it was able to 
retain fuel at all after the hit.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>; from andy@exeus.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 01:59:26PM +0100
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 01:59:26PM +0100, Andy Brick wrote:
> 
> Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> gravity well, and you misjump.

Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
Betelgeuse.  So are you.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Mit den Frauen ist das wie mit den Firewalls: was [...] am meisten
Sicherheit garantiert und am wenigsten Probleme macht, ist immer das,
was zum speziellen Fall am besten passt.
                        --Urs Traenkner in de.comp.security.firewall

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An interesting product - anything like this in Traveller?
Message-ID: <200204141322.EAV00067@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

In any ship or vehicle design sequence, is there anything 
like this?  It seems to be an internal add-on that reduces 
the potential for internal explosions.

http://www.blastgard.net/outlook.asp

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:24:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:24:06 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
References: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c1e3b7$e7bc9260$52200050@matt>

> I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot
> of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and
> ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how
> it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only
> lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure -
> the fuel is subdivided into several large tanks, perhaps more
> on large combat vessels - but not on a small ship, which
> might have at most two separate tanks.  It would be hard to
> effectively pump fuel from a holed tank, if it was able to
> retain fuel at all after the hit.

How about self sealing linings around the tanks... the fuel loss is that
lost before the hole gets sealed...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting 
>a pull on Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>

Which made me dislike the "100 D" limit.  If I am at the 100 
D limit for Earth (at earth's distance from Sol, which has 
its own gravitational pull), what is the value of G?

Now let's compare that to the same value at 100 D from 
Jupiter.  I would bet that it's different.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <200204141331.EAV00387@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Matthew Bond" says
>
>How about self sealing linings around the tanks... the fuel 
>loss is that lost before the hole gets sealed...
>

On a cryogenic tank, no less.  Must be some of that 
Unobtanium lining the fuel tanks.

I think also, that we're probably talking about a fairly 
large spot size for ship laser weapons.  If they are anything 
like the planned SBL, the spot size will be around 1 foot.  
The hole in the fuel tank is likely to be larger, since the 
spot will move some.  And explosive missiles (if forged 
fragments, HEAT jets, or kinetic impactors) are going to make 
holes more than a few inches in diameter (or larger).  Self-
sealing only seems to work on modern aircraft fuel tanks for 
small non-explosive projectiles.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <F209IlOAPE3EzbwJp8k00003548@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBA2ECF.32620.8436A0@localhost>

On 13 Apr 2002 at 5:09, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      GURPS Compedium II has servicable rad rules.  IIRC, there are some MT 
> rules in a DGP Digest issue that deal with exposure rather exhaustively.

They're a bit messed up on what types of critters are most sensitive to 
radiation though, IIRC. Those rules have it that birds are something 
like 5 times _less_ sensitive to radiation than mammales, when AFAIK 
they're rather _more_ sensitive to radiation in RL.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEBPCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <3CBA30BC.19744.8BBA6A@localhost>

On 14 Apr 2002 at 11:47, Robert O'Connor wrote:

> iv. Damage to Fertility
> Reproductive cells are sensitive to radiation.
> Dose (rads)    Effect
> 150            Sterility for 1-6 weeks
> 250            Sterility for 1-2 years
> 500            Permanent sterility in 75%
> 800            Permanent sterility in 100%

Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
men, if you prefer)?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 08:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hullo

> > Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> > simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> > gravity well, and you misjump.
>
> Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
> Betelgeuse.  So are you.

But, unlike the Earth, the gravitational pull exerted by a human is not
sufficient to cause a misjump, which was my point.

I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.

A rough back of envelope calculation would be that the acceleration due to
gravity at 100 diameters is 2.43e-04 ms^-2. Given a body with the same
density as the Earth, then we're looking at 5.56g per cubic centimetre, or
5560 kg per cubic metre. This gives us a solid, uniform sphere 156 metres in
radius and with a mass of 8.841e10 kg, or a displacement tonnage of about
1,178,000 dTons. Hollow the sphere out and it would change things, but I'd
say that as a rough rule of thumb, a vessel with equivalent g at its surface
is never likely to reach its destination ...

Andy Brick


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.346 / Virus Database: 194 - Release Date: 10/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 09:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr 14 08:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net>

Any update on T20?

Does anyone know when we are likely to see the 'offending' article ?

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 09:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Apr 14 08:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
 <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020414155356.08d6b44c.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Andy Brick wrote:
> Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> gravity well, and you misjump.
> 
> Net result : you can have a J6 planet. But no one can tell where its
going.
> Let's call it Heisenberg.

But all ships generate their own gravity wells...

Not of that magnitude, but still.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 10:35:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Apr 14 09:35:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Contact for Alvin Plummer?
Message-ID: <qibjbu0n0ieulkqta2ce6cslh5a727u1lf@4ax.com>

One of his articles on Freelance Traveller was slightly corrupted (on my
original, dammit!), and I need to talk to him to get the information needed
to uncorrupt it.  Can anyone pass me his address (off-list, please), or ask
him to contact me?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 10:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Apr 14 09:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <robjbu0fqnq6n9dnqt5e35f7a8qulahh5m@4ax.com>

On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 15:12:04 +0100, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
wrote:

>Hullo
>
>> > Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own =
gravity
>> > simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating =
inside a
>> > gravity well, and you misjump.
>>
>> Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
>> Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>
>But, unlike the Earth, the gravitational pull exerted by a human is not
>sufficient to cause a misjump, which was my point.
>
>I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
>Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.
>
>A rough back of envelope calculation would be that the acceleration due =
to
>gravity at 100 diameters is 2.43e-04 ms^-2. Given a body with the same
>density as the Earth, then we're looking at 5.56g per cubic centimetre, =
or
>5560 kg per cubic metre. This gives us a solid, uniform sphere 156 =
metres in
>radius and with a mass of 8.841e10 kg, or a displacement tonnage of =
about
>1,178,000 dTons. Hollow the sphere out and it would change things, but =
I'd
>say that as a rough rule of thumb, a vessel with equivalent g at its =
surface
>is never likely to reach its destination ...

Not that I'm up on the necessary math, but I would be interested in
the tidal force counterpart of these calculations.  I was very
impressed by the correspondence that was found between the tidal force
at 100 diameters and the effects which are described in Traveller.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 10:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sun Apr 14 09:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
In-Reply-To: <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEHLDKAA.tml@downport.com>

visit www.TravellerRPG.com for official T20 info... as to the offending
article, were you speaking of yourself or was it some sort of slight aimed
at a certain segment of Traveller players? :p

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Si

Any update on T20?

Does anyone know when we are likely to see the 'offending' article ?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Apr 14 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <F123KlnZcjKJXHC1gsW0000fa6c@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
men, if you prefer)?"


Mr. Boleyn,

     You are correct, sir.  Women never produce new eggs, they carry their 
lifetime supply with them at all times.  Men on the other hand continually 
produce new reproductive materials and must get rid of the older stuff to 
make room for the new.  That in itself explains quite a bit about male 
behavior.
     So, a female may be caring damaged genetic material if she had been 
exposed at ANY TIME during her life.  Males, due to their constant 
production of genetic material, only run the risk of donating damaged 
material if the exposure has been in the recent past.
     GURPS, in Compendium II, handles this in the following manner.  If a 
female has a lifetime dose of 250 rads, her offspring, and any problems they 
may have, are entirely at the GM's discretion.  If a male has recieved a 
dose of 100 rads within the last week, the same rule applies.
     A lfietime dose can be thought of as a running total of exposure that 
NEVER heals, it never goes away.  A female PC that recieved 25 seperate ten 
rad doses over several years of game time may have easily survived the 
effects of each of those exposures.  The burns, blood problems, and whatnot 
may be long behind her, but her lifetime dose is now 250 rads and any of her 
offspring are at the GM's mercy.
     Realistic?  Yes.  "Fair"?  No, but then again life is never fair.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 12:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Apr 14 11:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] landgrab questions
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEDOGHAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3CB9CF31.40F7C89F@mindspring.com>

John-Martin wrote:


> I've claimed Biter and was working on by landgrab and I have a few questions
>
> What is the fleet number for the Imperial Sword World subsector fleet?

Flipping open the rebellion source book we find........There is none. The
nearest is Lunion 43, or Vilis 193. Oddly I see Fleet 208 is assigned to all the
way over in Five sisters. But none in the Sword Worlds.

>
> Where is it headquartered?

See above

>
> What is Lunion's fleet number?

See above

>
> Does it help out imperial forces in the Sword Worlds?

We have no forces in the Sword Worlds. Those are just nasty rumors and Sword
Worlder propaganda. Please, have another drink and a narco stick. Enjoy the
music.



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 12:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Apr 14 11:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Terran/Vilani conflict (Was: Deadliness of combat)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140512410.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3CB9CF94.4CB5EF74@mindspring.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

Forbidden Canon.
???!




--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 14:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 13:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <200204142037.NAA19289@molly.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Also, I have read several times in old Traveller works about 
>the "L-Hyd" tank (which seems to say "liquid hydrogen" and 
>not "water").  The description in the AHL supplement 
>distinctly refers to the tankage on the Fuel Deck as "L-Hyd".

Canon is clearly liquid hydrogen.
>
>There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were 
>topping off with LNG or L-Hyd.  If you were in atmosphere and 
>someone scored a Fuel hit with a laser weapon, I'm betting 
>that the ship's fuel tanks would explode.

Nope, no oxygen.  The fuel leak will almost certainly ignite, however.
>been a minor hit in space would be disastrous in atmosphere.  
>See what happened to the fuel tank on the shuttle when the 
>SRB played a flame on it.  One fuel hit in atmosphere and 
>WHAM.

That's because of having both liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen, which
makes for a very nice bomb.

>Also, I'm wondering what happens if the fuel tanks adjoin 
>crew spaces, as they do in so many deck plans.  Let's say you 
>depressurize before combat, and close bulkhead doors.  One 
>compartment or more could be filled with fuel if the ship is 
>hit in certain ways.  Equipment and personnel in these areas 
>would be instantly destroyed/killed by cryogenic liquid.  

Fuel tanks are probably double-walled.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 14:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 14 13:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 09:26:52AM -0400
References: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020414144128.A5149@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 09:26:52AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> Which made me dislike the "100 D" limit.  If I am at the 100 
> D limit for Earth (at earth's distance from Sol, which has 
> its own gravitational pull), what is the value of G?
> 
> Now let's compare that to the same value at 100 D from 
> Jupiter.  I would bet that it's different.

I'd assume that the 100D limit must have nothing to do with gravity,
but instead have to do, somehow, with the actual physical size of an
object.  Perhaps physical objects imprint themselves in jump space,
but do to its properties they imprint a far larger area.  Or
something:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`When you wake up in the morning, Pooh,' said Piglet at last,
`what's the first thing you say to yourself?'
`What's for breakfast?' said Pooh. `What do you say, Piglet?'
`I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?' said Piglet.
Pooh nodded thoughtfully. `It's the same thing,' he said.
                                            --A.A. Milne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 14:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 14 13:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>; from andy@exeus.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 03:12:04PM +0100
References: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020414144249.B5149@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 03:12:04PM +0100, Andy Brick wrote:
> 
> I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
> Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.

I believe the rule is any object larger than 1/2 mile will trigger
jump precipation.  So someone needs to calculate the gravity of, say,
a 1/2 mile wide rocky body.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
It's better to have a weapon and not need it than to need a weapon and
not have it.                                     --Sir Clarence Worley

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-lethal weapons in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <B8B628F4.2D246%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20414.132135.5B6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 3/14/02 9:42 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>> The speed of sound is around 1200 m/s. That means that a 10 Hz sound
>> wave has a wavelngth of 120 meters. A quarter wavelength "antenna" is
>> going to be 30 meters.
>
> Oops.  I think you meant 330 m/s.  I wish it were 1200m/s.  It would make
> silencing rifles a lot easier.

Ok, I seem to have screwed up a step in converting from the figure I
could recall (mph) to the one I wanted (m/s).

> And does sound really propagate like radio waves?  It's really just SIT
> between air molecules.

It's a wave phenomenon. It has wavelength and the wavelength affects
how it propogates. Wavelengtyh, frequency and speed of propogation have
a *fixed* relationship.

I think it's 

L * f = v

L = wavelength
f = frequency
v = propogation velocity

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:02:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:02:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204141224.EAT00139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20414.133137.4r5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Care to resend this in *text* instead of base64 encoding?

In mail John T. Kwon writes:

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> L2xpc3RzLnRyYXZlbGxlcmNlbnRyYWwuY29tL3BpcGVybWFpbC9jb3JyaWRvci8NCg==
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:02:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:02:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <200204141227.EAT00280@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20414.133330.3v1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> (Leonard Erickson)  says
>>
>>I don't recall the ways that (for example) the Bethe "solar 
>>phoenix" reaction (which involves carbon as a catalyst) 
>>works. 
>>
>
> I thought that the CNO cycle was a relatively "slow" rate 
> reaction, even if it had a lower threshold to get started.

In stars it takes a long time. In a fusion reactor that can run at
higher temps and pressures, who knows?

> Also, isn't the p-p reaction the intended reaction for the 
> Bussard ramjet?  I keep hearing that the p-p reaction is more 
> difficult to start thant the D-T reaction.  And if we're 
> going to make it so difficult, why not just use He-3?

p-p requires higher temperatures and pressures. But the fuel is so much
more abundant that if you can do it, it'd be *vastly* preferred.

Not only is helium-3 hard to accumulate, it's harder to store. Liquid
helium temps are something like two orders of magnitude harder to
maintain than liquid hydrogen temps (temperature differences are
logarithmic, not arithmetic. That is, what matters isn't the difference
in degrees, but rather the *ratio* of the abosolute temperatures. So
the difference between 4 K and 20 K is the "same" as the difference
between 300 K (room temp) and 1500 K (halfway between the melting
point of copper and that of iron))

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:03:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:03:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20414.134105.6N5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Robert A. Uhl" says
>>
>>Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting 
>>a pull on Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>
> Which made me dislike the "100 D" limit.  If I am at the 100 
> D limit for Earth (at earth's distance from Sol, which has 
> its own gravitational pull), what is the value of G?
>
> Now let's compare that to the same value at 100 D from 
> Jupiter.  I would bet that it's different.

At 100 diameters from a "rocky" type planet, the *tidal forces* will be
the same. That is, the rate of change of the strength of the gravity
field will match.

It's easy to show that any force that is the same at a given number of
*diameters* from a sphere of a given density has to be one that various
as the inverse *cube* of the distance. Which tidal forces do.

The tidal forces can also be thought of as representing how sharply
"curved" the space in that area is, which fits nicely with the jump
drive. If it is trying to "bend" space, then it's "obvious" that it'll
be more reliable if it isn't fighting the bends that already exist.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:03:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:03:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20414.134634.3h0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any
>> upper limit
>> ("that's no moon...")
>
> Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> gravity well, and you misjump.

*Everything* generates its own gravity field. 

So ships have to correct for self gravity (and possibily for their
internal gravity fields as well) anyway. A planet-ship would just have
to make bigger corrections.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:04:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hullo
>
>> > Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
>> > simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
>> > gravity well, and you misjump.
>>
>> Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
>> Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>
> But, unlike the Earth, the gravitational pull exerted by a human is not
> sufficient to cause a misjump, which was my point.
>
> I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
> Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.

Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
todal forces are the same.

Inverse *cube* law.

> A rough back of envelope calculation would be that the acceleration due to
> gravity at 100 diameters is 2.43e-04 ms^-2.

And the tidal forces are 

a/l = G*M /r^3

a = acceleration
l = distance for center of object experiencing tidal forces
G = Newton's gravitational constant
M = mass of object exerting tidal forces
r = distance from center of object exerting tidal forces.

I suspect that you'll find that the forces involved at 100 diameters
from Earth are similar to those at the hull of a fairly small ship.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:04:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:04:37 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <003a01c1e3b7$e7bc9260$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20414.135536.3A4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot
>> of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and
>> ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how
>> it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only
>> lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure -
>> the fuel is subdivided into several large tanks, perhaps more
>> on large combat vessels - but not on a small ship, which
>> might have at most two separate tanks.  It would be hard to
>> effectively pump fuel from a holed tank, if it was able to
>> retain fuel at all after the hit.
>
> How about self sealing linings around the tanks... the fuel loss is that
> lost before the hole gets sealed...

And *how* are they going to self-seal? Liquid hydrogen is at 20 Kelvin.
(20 centrigrade degress above absolute zero, around -424 F)

*Any* lining is going to be frozen solid at that temp. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <20414.133330.3v1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020414213134.EB02127A53@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/14/02 at 01:33 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
said:

>> Also, isn't the p-p reaction the intended reaction for the 
>> Bussard ramjet?  I keep hearing that the p-p reaction is more 
>> difficult to start thant the D-T reaction.  And if we're 
>> going to make it so difficult, why not just use He-3?

>p-p requires higher temperatures and pressures. But the fuel is so
>much more abundant that if you can do it, it'd be *vastly* preferred.

>Not only is helium-3 hard to accumulate, it's harder to store. Liquid
>helium temps are something like two orders of magnitude harder to
>maintain than liquid hydrogen temps (temperature differences are
>logarithmic, not arithmetic. That is, what matters isn't the
>difference in degrees, but rather the *ratio* of the abosolute
>temperatures. So the difference between 4 K and 20 K is the "same" as
>the difference between 300 K (room temp) and 1500 K (halfway between
>the melting point of copper and that of iron))

My favorite, non-standard, fusion reaction is p-B(11). Boron-11 isn't
*all* that rare, and with the advanced plasma, magnetic and gravitic
controls of the TU it should be quite doable.  This reaction results
in almost no hard radiation, and electricity can be directly drawn off
the resultant charged particles.  

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help Needed
In-Reply-To: <B8B62CD4.2D26D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20414.140952.0s8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 3/14/02 9:16 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>>> get me one of those nifty adapter cards for that if I understand
>>> 'hot-swappable' correctly).
>> 
>> Mine isn't hot-swappable either.
>> 
>> Though I have to note that with IDE that's a tall order to start with.
>> With SCSI it's a bit easier.
>> 
>> The big problem is that the OS may not recognize the swap.
>
> If it's truly hot swappable, that means you are running some kind of RAID,
> too.  I remember seeing the shocked expression on the face of a brang new
> tech when I blithely yanked the drive out of out Resilient server. Just for
> yucks I pulled a processor too.  This while the machine was happily serving
> files, routing email and all that king of good stuff.

With some OSes you can swap a drive while the system is running, you
just have to do a "dismount" before pulling the drive and a "Mount"
after putting in a replacement.

When I finally get my Netware server upgraded I'll be doing that
occasionally with a tape drive or a scsi drive in a mobile rack.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:05:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:05:23 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020415080419.A22995@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I keep hearing people say that the fuel is carried in the form of
> liquid water and converted at the last minute.

I think you keep hearing just *me* :)


>  This would seem to be inefficient, as a substantial portion of your
> tankage would not be usable fuel.

Tankage *mass*, yes.  However, water has 50% more hydrogen per unit
*volume* than does liquid hydrogen.  As an additional bonus, it is
*much* easier to store.  As a further bonus again, you can drink it,
and breathe the "waste" after refining.

Since ship operating costs are directly proportional to volume (not
mass), this works out much more efficient.  However, it will reduce
acceleration on full tanks somewhat.


>  Liquid methane (liquified natural gas) might be a bit better than
> water,

Except that it is harder to store, more hazardous, no use in life
support, less plentiful, and the waste (carbon) is much less useful.
The same applies to ammonia.  It turns out that the best figure for
hydrogen per unit volume (for common substances) is a highly
concentrated ammonia solution.  The waste product from the refining
process is an oxygen / nitrogen mix.  However it's much worse from a
handling point of view, and you can't just suck it up from oceans or
ice moonlets.


> Also, I have read several times in old Traveller works about 
> the "L-Hyd" tank (which seems to say "liquid hydrogen" and 
> not "water").

It does.

In my ship designs, ships still have a LHyd tank, because the jump
drives need a *lot* of pure hydrogen really fast when entering jump;
far more than a fuel refiner can deliver in such a short period of
time.  Canon is unfortunately unclear as to *how much* fuel used by
jump is consumed right at the start, and the subject is a recurring
"hot topic" (look up "drop tanks" or "Annic Nova" in the archives for
a sample).  IMTU, initiating jump requires about 1-5% of the ship's
volume in jump fuel, the same again on re-entry, with the rest
consumed slowly during jump.  The last can be delivered by refiners
from water tanks, and provides the crew with breathing air and
drinking water.


> There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were topping
> off with LNG or L-Hyd.

No -- there's nothing for it to burn with if you're fuelling at an
up-port dock, and even many planets have insufficient oxygen to
support a flame.  There would be a cryogenic hazard though,
particularly with LHyd.


> See what happened to the fuel tank on the shuttle when the 
> SRB played a flame on it.  One fuel hit in atmosphere and 
> WHAM.

That's because the shuttle contains huge amounts of cryogenic
propellant *and* oxidiser, in a convenient ready-to-mix form.


> One compartment or more could be filled with fuel if the ship is hit
> in certain ways.  Equipment and personnel in these areas would be
> instantly destroyed/killed by cryogenic liquid.

Yep -- cryogenic liquids are dangerous.  And of course a *minor*
internal hydrogen leak could cause a fire once you reintroduce oxygen.


> I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot 
> of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and 
> ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how 
> it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only 
> lose a small percentage of the fuel.

That's what I assume.  You don't want a big open tank of liquid in the
ship when you're doing 6g maneuvers and rapid rotations, either --
even liquids as light as LHyd have a *lot* of mass in large volumes.
So IMTU fuel tankage is heavily compartmentalised even on small ships.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:05:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:05:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Terran/Vilani conflict (Was: Deadliness of combat)
In-Reply-To: <3CB9CF94.4CB5EF74@mindspring.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140512410.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020414145753.009e8ae0@mindspring.com>

At 02:51 PM 4/14/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>
>Forbidden Canon.
>???!

Stuff published by Digest Group.  I'm not getting into that mud patch 
again, but suffice it to say that the owner of the copyright wants a 
ridiculous amount of money for it, and as a result, those of us writing for 
Traveller have to avoid things that appeared solely in DGP books and magazines.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020415081233.B22995@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> And the tidal forces are 
> a/l = G*M /r^3

If we use T for tide and rho for density, then a spherical body
induces a tidal stretching of
 T = 2 G rho (r/R)^3.

This more clearly shows that for a body of given density, the tidal
strength depends only on the ratio of diameter to distance.


> I suspect that you'll find that the forces involved at 100 diameters
> from Earth are similar to those at the hull of a fairly small ship.

So the size of the ship is irrelevant -- what matters is its density.
Suffice it to say that every ship in Traveller has amply more than
enough density to give a higher tidal force at 1 diameter than Earth
does at 10 diameters, let alone 100D.

Apparently only ships larger than 1km will actually precipitate other
ships out from jump, but I suspect ships entering jump should indeed
use the normal misjump rules for proximity to any other body
comparable in size to their own.  (You don't want a speck of dust to
cause a misjump :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-lethal weapons in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1016132100.8505.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20414.163834.3i9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>> 
>> And my "sodium grenades" will tend to seal the edges of the plastic to
>> the helmet.
>
> If you can reliably spray enough sodium to cause a problem, you can also
> probably hit them with a comparable amount of high explosive and kill them
> outright.

In a vacuum, you don't have to "spray". The atoms essentially travel in
straight lines from the dispenser until they hit something. At which
point they stop. 

It doesn't take a very thick coating (a few atoms thick) to make it
hard to so, and hard for the cooling system on your space suit to get
rid of the heat you are building up.

In a vacuum, high eplosives are much less effective, because they don't
have air to conduct the shock. All they have to ork with is the gases
they produce themselves. And a blast strong enough to cause trouble is
strong enough to damage gear in the compartment. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:26:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:26:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
References: <20020414132903.D582627B44@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c1e414$9dbef1a0$bdb18b90@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
> closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
> travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
> builds until it collapses the wormholes.

No surprises there.  And of course, since the possibility to use them for
FTL implies the possibility of using them for time travel, you can't use
them for FTL, etc.

Fortunately, we are dealing with science fiction, not real life, so this
analysis is hereby declared to be incomplete.  This also explains why "FTL
radio" isn't possible.  Oh, and traversing wormholes takes about 170 hours
or so, too.  : )

Incidentally, Yaskoydray definitely could have time travel.  Creating pocket
universes implies being able to do really, really interesting things to
space-time.  In fact, it might be possible to travel from the MT/TNE
universe to the GT one.  IMTU, Avery did!  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
Message-ID: <200204150043.RAA22864@molly.iii.com>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:

>From: Leonard Erickson
>> It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
>> closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
>> travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
>> builds until it collapses the wormholes.
>
>No surprises there.  And of course, since the possibility to use them for
>FTL implies the possibility of using them for time travel, you can't use
>them for FTL, etc.

Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.

In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
wormholes have to share a reference frame.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEAIDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
> and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
> (assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
> todal forces are the same.

(Tries it in Excel - ) Neat trick - hadn't seen this before - though I
suspect it only works because I used a  uniform density, and since that
won't be the case in the "real" (read:more random/realistic simulation of
the) universe, then using tidal forces as a basis for misjumps will vary the
rule either side of 100 diameters - for example, raise the density, and the
100 diameter limit drops to ninety something diameters.

But it doesn't really matter what causes the misjump effect. The fact
remains that a given mass will cause some form of gravitational effect that
invokes a misjump, and when you build a starship of that mass it should be
affected by its own gravitational effect - and hence misjump.

The maths/details don't really matter here - the concept is the thing. There
should be an upper limit of some kind on starship size imposed by the
misjump rule.

Andy B.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.346 / Virus Database: 194 - Release Date: 10/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com>

"Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com> writes:

>But it doesn't really matter what causes the misjump effect. The fact
>remains that a given mass will cause some form of gravitational effect that
>invokes a misjump, and when you build a starship of that mass it should be
>affected by its own gravitational effect - and hence misjump.

Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external fields.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 18:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
> trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
> to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external fields.

Or, that misjumps are poorly thought out.

They don't work if you use g, the gravitational field acceleration because
it varies so much.
They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
themselves.

So, has anyone got a better explanation of why 100 diameters, 10 diameters
etc are so very bad ?

Andy B


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.346 / Virus Database: 194 - Release Date: 10/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 19:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 18:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020415114537.A23557@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Brick wrote:
> They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
> themselves.

Isn't that what the jump grid is for; making sure that everything
contained within it is properly prepared for jump?  I would not be at
all surprised if part of the function of the grid was to cancel the
gravity due to the mass of the ship.  Gravity from external objects
can't be cancelled because you don't have a grid surrounding them.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 19:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Apr 14 18:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEHDCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Ortillery?
>
>I saw it in Dirtside, a game to go with Full Thrust.
>
>But I may have seen it in an SF novel before.

I think it's in Hammer's Slammers, by David Drake -- but it may even have
appeared in Gordon Dickson's Dorsai books.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 20:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sun Apr 14 19:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of malfunction?
References: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com> <20020414114830.26705bd4.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <DAV40aODv8h1ccBHuGI0000737d@hotmail.com>

> How would this kind of problem affect gauss/railgun type weapons?

<shrug>  Some earlier gauss weapon discussion seemed to indicate that GWs
would have to be pretty heavily shielded.  So maybe nothing.


> Not that any PCs would try bringing any of them through security, mind
> you...

Good heavens, no! <g>

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Sun Apr 14 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020413200302.009ee460@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CBA3FFD.3090802@yarranet.net.au>

Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll 
never get my Tigress at this rate.


Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 20:55:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Apr 14 19:55:06 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEHDCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Also, I'm wondering what happens if the fuel tanks adjoin
>crew spaces, as they do in so many deck plans.  Let's say you
>depressurize before combat, and close bulkhead doors.  One
[deletion]
>I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot
>of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and
>ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how
>it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only
>lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure -

I usually design deck plans with a fuel envelope around the ship.  That
accounts for the large number of fuel hits in High Guard.  I assume that the
fuel tank is divided into ten compartments of equal volume, so that each
fuel hit blows a hole in one or more compartments.

If you get both internal explosion and fuel hit results, the problem you
describe may occur.  In a High Guard fleet action, I wouldn't worry about
it, but I will take your suggestion to heart in the case of combat involving
a ship with the PCs, or a ship that they encounter.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 21:13:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Apr 14 20:13:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134634.3h0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
 <20414.134634.3h0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020415031235.2864d227.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> *Everything* generates its own gravity field. 
> 
> So ships have to correct for self gravity (and possibily for their
> internal gravity fields as well) anyway. A planet-ship would just have
> to make bigger corrections.

Semi-scientifical handwave follows:

The jump grid acts in a manner similiar to an electrical potential cage
(kind of like grounding the ship to a known neutral potential). Thus, the
ship itself doesn't disturb the jump drive's operation. Other objects,
however, aren't grounded in this fashion, and do disturb it, causing
misjumps etc.

Think of the disturbance as a lightning bolt hitting a metal cage (but
from the inside of the cage/ship). The discharge travels along the cage
(jump grid), but doesn't pass through it.

Comments?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 21:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr 14 20:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CBA3FFD.3090802@yarranet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20020415032922.5193B27A6E@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:

>Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll 
>never get my Tigress at this rate.

Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
level) per month!  <g>


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 22:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Apr 14 21:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>

On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 02:06:05 +0100, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
wrote:

>> Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
>> trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
>> to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external =
fields.
>
>Or, that misjumps are poorly thought out.
>
>They don't work if you use g, the gravitational field acceleration =
because
>it varies so much.
>They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
>themselves.
><SNIP>

Are you certain that traditional Traveller ships will create a tidal
force equivalent to a planet at 10 or even 100 diameters?  I was under
the impression that their mass wasn't sufficient to generate that
level of tidal force.  Further, I wouldn't think a body could exert
tidal force upon itself.

I would welcome anyone doing the math to demonstrate where the tidal
force associated with a planet's 10 diameter or 100 diameter limit
would fall for 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000 ton ships.
If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force upon
itself (and I do doubt that greatly), do these tidal gradients fall
outside a thus displacement sphere (the minimum surface area)?

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 22:26:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 14 21:26:09 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415032922.5193B27A6E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/14/02 8:29 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

> On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:
> 
>> Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll
>> never get my Tigress at this rate.
> 
> Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
> level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
> low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
> level) per month!  <g>

Which makes a steward a well paid individual indeed.  That's about
$140,160/year in adjusted dollars.  The Pilot is raking in about 210 grand a
year in 2002 US dollars.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 23:04:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 22:04:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> I would welcome anyone doing the math to demonstrate where the tidal
> force associated with a planet's 10 diameter or 100 diameter limit
> would fall for 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000 ton ships.

I'll assume that the 100D limit corresponds to a tidal tension
of 4e-13 s^-2, and hence that the 10D gradient is 4e-10 s^-2.

Let us suppose that each ship is spherical with an average density of
500 kg/m^3 (i.e. about 7 tonnes/dton).

Displacement  Diameter  Mass    10D limit  100D limit
(dtons)       (m)       (Mg)    (m)        (m)
100           13.8      685     61.1       611
1000          29.7      6850    131.7      1317
10000         64.0      68500   283.8      2838
100000        138       685000  611.4      6114

As you can see, the hull surface is far inside the 10D limit.

The formulae are pretty simple: mass = density * volume,
volume = pi D^3 / 6  for a sphere,
T = 2 G M / R^3.


> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force
> upon itself

You are.  This is very important in determining Roche's limit, for
example.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 23:15:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr 14 22:15:12 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/14/02 at 09:24 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 4/14/02 8:29 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

>> On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:
>> 
>>> Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll
>>> never get my Tigress at this rate.
>> 
>> Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
>> level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
>> low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
>> level) per month!  <g>

>Which makes a steward a well paid individual indeed.  That's about
>$140,160/year in adjusted dollars.  The Pilot is raking in about 210
>grand a year in 2002 US dollars.

Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
OTU games.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 23:49:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 22:49:11 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
> OTU games.

You don't think it makes sense that people from highly technologically
advanced societies are richer than modern-day Earthlings?  Especially
starship crew, who have to live in cramped conditions in a hostile
environment for weeks at a time?

Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
than bus drivers.  And people in the US generally get paid a lot more
than people in most other countries for comparable occupations.  So to
my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from high-tech
societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20414.230338.5J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 02:06:05 +0100, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
>>> trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
>>> to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external =
> fields.
>>
>>Or, that misjumps are poorly thought out.
>>
>>They don't work if you use g, the gravitational field acceleration =
> because
>>it varies so much.
>>They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
>>themselves.
>><SNIP>
>
> Are you certain that traditional Traveller ships will create a tidal
> force equivalent to a planet at 10 or even 100 diameters?  I was under
> the impression that their mass wasn't sufficient to generate that
> level of tidal force.  Further, I wouldn't think a body could exert
> tidal force upon itself.

No, but tidal force is a (effectively) a measure of how severely space
is curved. 

Acceleration due to gravity is the "slope" of the gravity well. Tidal
forces are the rate at which the slop changes.

> I would welcome anyone doing the math to demonstrate where the tidal
> force associated with a planet's 10 diameter or 100 diameter limit
> would fall for 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000 ton ships.
> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force upon
> itself (and I do doubt that greatly), do these tidal gradients fall
> outside a thus displacement sphere (the minimum surface area)?

The problem is that we need to know the *mass* of the ship, not the
displacement. A "100 ton" ship occupies the same *volume* as 100 tons
of liquid hydrogen. It may mass more or less.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:15:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:15:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEAIDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20414.225006.1X5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>> and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>> (assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>> todal forces are the same.
>
> (Tries it in Excel - ) Neat trick - hadn't seen this before - though I
> suspect it only works because I used a  uniform density, and since that
> won't be the case in the "real" (read:more random/realistic simulation of
> the) universe, then using tidal forces as a basis for misjumps will vary the
> rule either side of 100 diameters - for example, raise the density, and the
> 100 diameter limit drops to ninety something diameters.

Thing is, the density of "rocky" planets (as opposed to gas giants and
the iceballs you find in the outer system) is pretty uniform. 

And for gas giants and iceballs the "critical" tidal force level would
occur well *within* 100 diameters. 

So if there's any sort of safety factor built in to the "100 diameter"
rule, it'll work fine except in *really* oddball situations (say trying
to jump close to a *big* nickel-iron asteroid).

> But it doesn't really matter what causes the misjump effect. The fact
> remains that a given mass will cause some form of gravitational effect that
> invokes a misjump, and when you build a starship of that mass it should be
> affected by its own gravitational effect - and hence misjump.
>
> The maths/details don't really matter here - the concept is the thing. There
> should be an upper limit of some kind on starship size imposed by the
> misjump rule.

The details *do* matter, because the forces at the *hull* of even a
small ship will *exceed* those from a planet at 100 diameters. That's a
*unavoidable*. 

So a ship *has* to be able to compensate for the forces generated by
its own mass.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:15:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:15:55 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020415080419.A22995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20414.231128.0e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>  Liquid methane (liquified natural gas) might be a bit better than
>> water,
>
> Except that it is harder to store, more hazardous, no use in life
> support, less plentiful, and the waste (carbon) is much less useful.
> The same applies to ammonia.  It turns out that the best figure for
> hydrogen per unit volume (for common substances) is a highly
> concentrated ammonia solution.  The waste product from the refining
> process is an oxygen / nitrogen mix.  However it's much worse from a
> handling point of view, and you can't just suck it up from oceans or
> ice moonlets.

Actually, if you are out at the distance of saturn or farther, that
"ice" is apt to be a mix of ammonia, methane and water.

>> There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were topping
>> off with LNG or L-Hyd.
>
> No -- there's nothing for it to burn with if you're fuelling at an
> up-port dock, and even many planets have insufficient oxygen to
> support a flame.  There would be a cryogenic hazard though,
> particularly with LHyd.

Well, liquid hydrogen doesn't respond well to large inputs of energy
either. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:16:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <004d01c1e414$9dbef1a0$bdb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <20414.231508.7E7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: Leonard Erickson
>> It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
>> closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
>> travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
>> builds until it collapses the wormholes.
>
> No surprises there.  And of course, since the possibility to use them for
> FTL implies the possibility of using them for time travel, you can't use
> them for FTL, etc.

Not necessarily. 

There are lots of FTL trips you can take without having actually
transfer of things or information into someone's past. 

You just have to be careful. And it does make it easy to shut down a
wormhole (or a series of them) if you are desperate.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20414.231128.0e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415080419.A22995@freeman.little-possums.net> <20414.231128.0e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020415175248.A24097@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, if you are out at the distance of saturn or farther, that
> "ice" is apt to be a mix of ammonia, methane and water.

Yes, quite true.  Water is more prevalent further in, which I would
guess is where ships are more likely to want to go.  Most spacecraft
in my Traveller universe don't scoop gas giants for hydrogen unless
really desperate; they either slurp it up from oceans or grab it from
icy moons or other bodies.  Sometimes that means throwing away excess
methane and ammonia because they don't have appropriate type of
tankage to hold it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 07:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon Apr 15 06:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CBAD3C8.FEAB4008@attbi.com>


Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
> than bus drivers.  

Um, no they don't. Maybe half if the drivers aren't unionized.

> And people in the US generally get paid a lot more
> than people in most other countries for comparable occupations.  

Oh so true, even more so here in the Peoples Republic of California.

> So to
> my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from high-tech
> societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.

Yah, but like most Mariners today most of that wage comes from
overtime.

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 08:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Apr 15 07:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226C0@USCHM203>

Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term =
>"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
>  =20
> The origin is bugging me....

It definitely goes back to at least the mid to late 80s. I thought that I
might have first seen it in "Striker", which would be around 1981 or so, but
I could be mistaken. As someone else mentioned, the term might have appeared
in a sci-fi novel even earlier.

Brian L. Hurrel
ICS Analyst
EDS
(973) 682-5578


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CBAD3C8.FEAB4008@attbi.com>; from wmacdude@attbi.com on Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 06:21:12AM -0700
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net> <3CBAD3C8.FEAB4008@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20020415092359.A9480@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 06:21:12AM -0700, Evyn MacDude wrote:
> 
> > Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
> > than bus drivers.  

In Denver a driver starts at $12.xx and hour--let's say $13.  They
probably work less than 8 hours a day, but let's say they do.  That's
$104/day, or $540/wk.  Assuming two unpaid weeks of vacation a year,
that's $26,000/yr.  What's the starting rate for a submariner?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism
to decadence without touching civilization.               --John O'Hara

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <001e01c1e492$a431a680$1f9e15ac@warrior>

Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for those kinds of
speciallized skills... I mean how much does a Airliner pilot make now
days...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Little" <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 1:47 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?


> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> > Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
> > OTU games.
>
> You don't think it makes sense that people from highly technologically
> advanced societies are richer than modern-day Earthlings?  Especially
> starship crew, who have to live in cramped conditions in a hostile
> environment for weeks at a time?
>
> Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
> than bus drivers.  And people in the US generally get paid a lot more
> than people in most other countries for comparable occupations.  So to
> my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from high-tech
> societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.
>
>
> - Tim
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:43:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:43:06 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415092359.A9480@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEIJDKAA.tml@downport.com>

Or how about: what is the full-package cost for an experienced, commercial
submarine officer?

Hmm...

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Robert A. Uhl

In Denver a driver starts at $12.xx and hour--let's say $13.  They
probably work less than 8 hours a day, but let's say they do.  That's
$104/day, or $540/wk.  Assuming two unpaid weeks of vacation a year,
that's $26,000/yr.  What's the starting rate for a submariner?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:43:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:43:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

Maybe I'm just too scientifically dumb to follow the
conversation and am therefore saying the same thing
that has already been said, but...

Doesn't a starship (or Jump enabled planet for that
matter) exert gravity inward to it's center?  Isn't
that a different force than the planet or ship or GG
or Star that is closer than 100D?

I always thought the 100D gravity (or whatever) limit
as being more of a sheering force on the Jumping
vessel.  The vessels internal gravity (or whatever)
just isn't sheering on itself.

I'm not all that scientific in these areas, so I may
be wrong or completely invalid, but that is my
handwave. :)

Paul


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 10:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Mon Apr 15 09:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <F209D689cMhtTYDGGfA000197d5@hotmail.com>

One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
than they pay out in claims.

If you are a large enough organization, like a Mega-Corp,
then your insurable losses from any particular event should
be low enough (as a percentage of your total income) that it
will be a better option for you to absorb the losses as they
occur rather than continuously pay out insurance premiums.
You'll "self-insure", by keeping cash on hand enough to cover emergencies 
and accidents.  This is a good way for a large
enough company to do business, since this "cash on hand",
while it's on hand, can be earning for the company while
insurance premiums are gone.

If a catastrophe happens that destroys more value of your
megacorp assets than you would have been paying out in
insurance premiums, then chances are a war caused it - and
insurance companies are noted for not paying out claims
on damage caused by acts of war anyway.

So, you'll have two tiers of starship out there.  The
small or independent operator, who buys insurance (since a
single event will likely put him out of business otherwise).
The large corp, which may self-insure (that is, put money
aside to cover replacement, rather than pay out premiums).

If most of a starport's traffic is megacorp vessels,
then that starport won't have the insurance industry
involved as much with starport safety requirements.
The megacorp may have to post a bond of some sort, but
this bond may be a trivial formality if the megacorp
is in bed with the local starport authority...which they
probably will be, the megacorp likely built the bed,
washed the linens and hired the nubile young bedwarmers.

The small independent operator may have to post a bond
of sorts to gain access to a starport as well.  This bond
may well be posted by the independent operator's insurance
carrier on behalf of all the carrier's clients, with the
insurance carrier requiring operators to meet certain
safety guidelines to get coverage and access to the bond.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 10:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon Apr 15 09:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
Message-ID: <OF79538278.A1B0E48C-ON85256B9C.005AE8D9@pheaa.org>

has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a line at
wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.

thanks

Bill


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 10:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 09:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
Message-ID: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Here I go again. Please don't kill me  :-)

Right now I'm adding population generation to my script.

Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake  ;-)

"That's no moon"

I could see people turning a small moon into swiss cheese and living in
it, but at that point it will cease to be a moon and begin to be a space
station built using an asteroid hull.

Are there any good reasons not to use asteroids or small moons as hulls
for space stations? It would be a lot cheaper, and easier to expand (to a
certain limit). Just dig a few more tunnels.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204151701.ECX05851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Christopher Pratt says
>
>Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for 
>those kinds of speciallized skills... I mean how much does a 
>Airliner pilot make now days...
>
It's not as though a pilot today has to know as much as they 
used to.  Celestial navigation? LORAN? Dead reckoning? Nope.  
If you can use a GPS and know how to use the flight computer, 
it's just not as difficult as it used to be.  In fact, 
there's a lot to the handling of current aircraft that is 
done by the computer. It "helps" you, and you don't even 
notice that it's doing so.

Mostly, pilots are there to try and land the plane if 
something goes wrong.  There is little technical reason at 
this point why we could not design pilotless aircraft - in 
fact, there are compelling safety reasons to do so.  There 
are some FAA people I talked to who say that sometime in the 
next 20 years, they are going to try and fully automate 
everything from takeoff to landing (some aircraft are already 
capable of this).  At that point, it is questionable what you 
would need a pilot for.  He would be a glorified bus driver.

ObTrav:  What is a pilot, anyway?  Doesn't a pilot largely 
perform naviagational tasks?  In movies, yeah, fighter pilot 
city - just like WW II (image of Leia pointing and 
saying "star destroyer" -- good thing we spent all that money 
on radar when she can just point out the window).  But IMTU - 
well, there's an ability to takeoff and land, but in major 
starports, that could be automated.  Docking maneuvers?  Once 
again, probably safer if automated.  A pilot is -- really a 
coordinator -- making all of the ship's systems work 
together, and making decisions about where to go and how.

Like a navigator, with wings.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018890322.7515.ajackson@ping>

Jens Rydholm writes:
> Here I go again. Please don't kill me  :-)
> 
> Right now I'm adding population generation to my script.
> 
> Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
> than 100 miles to have a population?

Well, in habitats sure.  Thermal effects put a practical limit of around a
million people times diameter squared (and the moon will glow in infrared), 
but that's not terribly limiting.

> Are there any good reasons not to use asteroids or small moons as hulls
> for space stations? It would be a lot cheaper, and easier to expand (to a
> certain limit). Just dig a few more tunnels.

Well, you want a solid asteroid as opposed to a gravel pile, but given that
traveller has gravetics for artificial gravity, it's practical enough.  Doubt
that the cost differences would be huge, however.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <F68hRaUMNGCXWGmQyt500005973@hotmail.com>

From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>

     "In Denver a driver starts at $12.xx and hour--let's say $13.  They
probably work less than 8 hours a day, but let's say they do.  That's
$104/day, or $540/wk.  Assuming two unpaid weeks of vacation a year,
that's $26,000/yr.  What's the starting rate for a submariner?"


Mr. Uhl,

     Good point, and let's not forget benefits.  Most employers who  don't 
provide benefits tend to pay slightly higher salaries.  Please note, I'm 
talking about skilled positions in this context and not minimum wage 
Wal-Mart meat puppets.
     Give Mr. Kramden above a family medical policy, a dental plan, life 
insurance, and employer contributions to a 401(K) and/or pension plan, and 
his "earnings" increase by another $10,000/yr or so.
     The "March Harrier" and her ilk are not going to provide any of these 
"bennies" at all.  In order to compete in the same labor market as the 
mega-corps, smaller outfits will offer slightly higher salaries.
     The Wal-Marts of the future will still have the upper hand when it 
comes to hiring floor moppers however.(If we still waste human labor on such 
tasks that is.)  Just like today, Wal-Mart's inclusion of benefits in their 
compensation package will keep their supply of min-wage types bountiful as 
opposed to the corner "Quik-E-Mart."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <F55WYIgoFT3kMUVfNIJ0000272d@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>Mostly, pilots are there to try and land the plane if
>something goes wrong.  There is little technical reason at
>this point why we could not design pilotless aircraft - in
>fact, there are compelling safety reasons to do so.  There
>are some FAA people I talked to who say that sometime in the
>next 20 years, they are going to try and fully automate
>everything from takeoff to landing (some aircraft are already
>capable of this).  At that point, it is questionable what you
>would need a pilot for.  He would be a glorified bus driver.

I have read where the F-22 is described as the Air Force's "last" manned 
fighter.

Also, apparently the thing that replaced the SR71 is not manned.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204151758.ECZ05255@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>
>I have read where the F-22 is described as the Air 
>Force's "last" manned fighter.
>
>Also, apparently the thing that replaced the SR71 is not 
>manned.
>

In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your 
starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local 
stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au> <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>

Si wrote:

> Any update on T20?
>
> Does anyone know when we are likely to see the 'offending' article ?
>
> Si
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

oops,

I sincerely apologise to everyone involved in the T20 project.  My
forgetting to include a 'smiley' totally changed the emphasis of the
message and made it seem negative.  IT WAS NOT MEANT TO BE, as I am
really looking forward to T20.  for those of you who are not aware of
the Open Gaming licence, using the d20 system means that everything is
(to a significant degree) interchangeable.  This means that (with only a
little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.

:-)

Si




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <F209D689cMhtTYDGGfA000197d5@hotmail.com>
References: <F209D689cMhtTYDGGfA000197d5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020415201231.2a376fbc.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Walt Smith wrote:
> One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
> only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
> than they pay out in claims.
<snip>

A very nice post indeed. I don't really have anything to add, but I'll
just note that the post didn't disappear in the dreaded black hole of
quality. It was archived on my harddrive  :-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
In-Reply-To: <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
 <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net> <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <20020415201431.3145d14b.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Si wrote:
> little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
> them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
> terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.

Kind of like GURPS  ;-)

I am also just kidding. I probably won't purchase the main T20 book, but
one can never have too much background material  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
Message-ID: <OF66D276C9.2DAD1A83-ON85256B9C.006477EE@pheaa.org>





<snip>
> little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
> them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
> terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.
</snip>

Im really looking forward to this. i got an order in at my FLGS already 8)

Bill






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
Message-ID: <200204151824.EDB00561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm just hoping for a better skill resolution system (hoping 
for a better combat system may be a forlorn one).
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <200204151824.EDB00561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB1C87.D6550A25@virgin.net>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> I'm just hoping for a better skill resolution system (hoping
> for a better combat system may be a forlorn one).
> ________________
> "Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

The skill systems should be (AFAIK) similar to that of 3e.  Namely a
skill modifier is equal to the number of ranks you have bought in a
skill plus a modifier based upon the skills determining characteristic.

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An interesting product - anything like this in Traveller?
References: <200204141322.EAV00067@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB1D32.5000002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> In any ship or vehicle design sequence, is there anything 
> like this?  It seems to be an internal add-on that reduces 
> the potential for internal explosions.
> 
> http://www.blastgard.net/outlook.asp

This is probably part of the composite hull material, which does start 
to appear at TL8-9...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:35:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:35:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a
 starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV14LEGhUOjO0L6WkQ00004c57@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020411151634.0209ac08@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020415142902.020c6250@mail.qrc.com>

At 09:40 AM 4/13/2002, Texas Redshift wrote:
>After scrying using the Orb of Google, it appears that we may both mean the
>Law of Finds rather than salvage.

Probably; I'm not a lawyer (and only occasionally play one on the Internet).

>In many cases, this compensation is such that simply giving the salvor 
>salvaged property is the best way to straighten things out.

And as a gaming rule of thumb, it'll certainly do.

>Note also that special cases seem to apply to historical shipwrecks and
>military vessels.

Yes; IMTU I'd make the call that military shipwrecks remain Imperial 
property (and thus might be salvaged by the Imperium or it's agents and 
contractors, but not by private groups), and historical wrecks (including 
war graves, memorials, etc.) can be so designated by a proclamation from 
the appropriate nobility.

Thanks for the links!

   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 12:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
References: <20413.120658.7M5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB24B3.8020600@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Well, back in the late 60s/early 70s, I used to grab the Air Force
> equivalent ("in flight meal packs") at the commissary to take on Boy
> Scout camping trips. Basicly, we used them for dinner on Friday night
> when we were tired after setting up camp, and didn't feel much like
> putting a lot of effort into cooking. 

My roommate used to get those by the case at the PX, most of them 
weren't bad by starving college student, top ramen and tuna surprise 
standards.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Backwater areas in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <3C90ACCA.20039.9DF165@localhost>
Message-ID: <20415.121345.7z0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 13 Mar 2002 at 14:47, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > Another option might be hypervelocity rockets with a penetrator.
>> > Something the size of a LAW or AT-4 that accelerates up to 2000+
>> > meters per second in the tube and with a DU penetrator. 
>> 
>> Eek! Do you have any idea what sort of rocket motor you are talking
>> about here? 
>> 
>> Work out the acceleration required, just for starters. 
>> 
>> The backblast will be nasty, and a cracked fuel grain will take out the
>> person firing the rocket.
>
> The NZ Air Force used to (when we still had a strike wing) use Canadian 
> 120mm rockets that had a tungsten carbide penetrator like a tank gun 
> round as their warhead. IIRC they have a similar velocity to that of a 
> tank gun and, as the body stayed attached, more mass. We used them for 
> anti-shipping and they'd no nasty things to a frigate from barely on 
> the horizon. I think the SOP was to fly in at 10,000 feet until the 
> ship appeared over the horizon, fire, then dive back under the horizon 
> before the SAMs got to you.
>
> Therefore the basic idea is feasible at TL7-8, it's just a matter of 
> getting the thing small enough for a man to carry. As for fuel grain 
> cracks - thet's an issue with any rocket or missile, so why make an 
> issue of it for this one? The (likely) higher internal pressure?

A blast that will "inconvenience" a jet fighter will make hamburger out
of an infantryman. And ordnance attached to aircraft gets handled a
*lot* more gently than anything a soldier is packing around in combat.

Also, as noted elsewhere, I can just about guarantee that the
antishipping missile *didn't* reach full velocity in less than 100
meters, much less less than *2* meters.

The big objection is to the missile reaching full velocity by the time
it exits the launch tube. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:01:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:01:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20415.122550.9R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Maybe I'm just too scientifically dumb to follow the
> conversation and am therefore saying the same thing
> that has already been said, but...
>
> Doesn't a starship (or Jump enabled planet for that
> matter) exert gravity inward to it's center?  Isn't
> that a different force than the planet or ship or GG
> or Star that is closer than 100D?

Nope. Or at least not in a simple manner.

The gravitational forces inside a hollow sphere *cancel*. For other
shapes, you need a lot of calculus to figure what sort of forces you get.

Inside a solid sphere, of uniform density, you get the interesting
result that the force of gravity is a *maximum* at the surface and
drops *linearly* to zero at the center.

For one of varying density, where the density varies in spherical
"layers", it's a bit weirder, but you can figure it out by just taking
the mass of the solid sphere that's closer to the center than you are.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:01:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:01:56 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020415175248.A24097@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20415.124737.8e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Actually, if you are out at the distance of saturn or farther, that
>> "ice" is apt to be a mix of ammonia, methane and water.
>
> Yes, quite true.  Water is more prevalent further in, which I would
> guess is where ships are more likely to want to go.  Most spacecraft
> in my Traveller universe don't scoop gas giants for hydrogen unless
> really desperate; they either slurp it up from oceans or grab it from
> icy moons or other bodies.  Sometimes that means throwing away excess
> methane and ammonia because they don't have appropriate type of
> tankage to hold it.

If you aren't scooping from a gas giant, you don't *need* tankage.
Except for a rather small amount to hold stuff that you are feeding
thru the systems that "crack" the hydrogen out of them.

Both methane and ammonia will burn with oxygen. So you crack some water
(thermally or via electrolysis) and use the oxygen to burn the methane
and ammonia to N2, H20 & CO2. You condense the H20 and crack it to get
back the oxygen. The CO2 and N2 get either discrard or fed into the
life support system's atomosphere reprocessing section. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:02:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:02:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Here I go again. Please don't kill me  :-)
>
> Right now I'm adding population generation to my script.
>
> Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
> than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
> become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
> of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake  ;-)
>
> "That's no moon"
>
> I could see people turning a small moon into swiss cheese and living in
> it, but at that point it will cease to be a moon and begin to be a space
> station built using an asteroid hull.

Okay that six mile (I assume diameter, if it's radius, multiply all
areas below by 4) rockball has a surface area of just over 3 billion
square feet. Equivalent to a square 10.6 miles on a side. That's a
*lot* bigger than Manhattan.

Which gives each of those 10,000 people roughly 315,000 square feet. Or
an area about 560 feet square.  That's a couple of city blocks!

Say it's 50,000. That reduces things to 63,000 squae feet apiece. An
area only 250 feet square.

Allow burrowing only a few hundred feet into the surface, and the
amount of space gets positively *obscene*. And it's still a moon or
asteroid, not a station with an asteroid hull.

Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
buildings and the like.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
Message-ID: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>

--part1_a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
> than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
> become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
> of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake  ;-)

I would say that isn't really a problem, for reasons that others have gone
into in plenty of detail.

One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of rock in 
a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons of inhabited 
planets,
a few large bodies in any given planetoid belt, maybe.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
<BR>&gt; than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
<BR>&gt; become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
<BR>&gt; of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake &nbsp;;-)
<BR>
<BR>I would say that isn't really a problem, for reasons that others have gone
<BR>into in plenty of detail.
<BR>
<BR>One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of rock in 
<BR>a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons of inhabited planets,
<BR>a few large bodies in any given planetoid belt, maybe.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020415190106.CE88227B71@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB4144.FF9D2823@earthlink.net>

John T. Kwon
> 
> 
> In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?

Yes. It's called "TL17". TL14 for those playing GT.

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <200204151758.ECZ05255@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E09124.3A634%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?

Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right when the user no
longer understands what's going on behind the 'curtain'.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8e0f93f2f0d@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>todal forces are the same.

A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the 
size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity 
in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal 
gradient.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:46:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:46:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020416074539.A25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
> I always thought the 100D gravity (or whatever) limit as being more
> of a sheering force on the Jumping vessel.  The vessels internal
> gravity (or whatever) just isn't sheering on itself.

Well, gravitational fields in empty space exert a combination of
stretching and compressional tides, not shearing.  Once you look at
the field *inside* some point of a body, it is a sum of the
compressional/stretching due to external fields, with a pure
compressional tide due to local density.

The simplest case is the interior of a sphere of uniform density.  In
that case, *every* point within the sphere has an isotropic and
homogeneous compression tide.  The strength is independent of location
within the sphere, and also independent of the size of the sphere.
(The mechanical pressure does vary with position and size however)

Grossly non-uniform and asymmetric bodies like starships have tidal
gradients that are horribly 'lumpy' throughout and difficult to plug
into an equation :/  You can still do the maths, but you need a
computer to actually add up all the numbers.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>
References: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020416080223.B25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of
> rock in a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons
> of inhabited planets, a few large bodies in any given planetoid
> belt, maybe.

I might go that far in a setting where a spacefaring civilization had
been confined to a single star system for *ages*.  Like the Moties,
for example.  The Imperium has too much room to move, and too low a
population for a 10km cometary body in the inner Oort cloud to look in
the least attractive as a home if there are any alternatives.

But I'd get a computer to do the actual number-crunching, and get
statistical features rather than individual figures.  Just things like
the probability that a given body of certain diameter, location, and
composition is inhabited, and by how many if so.  e.g. "1.3 trillion
living in asteroids of 5 km diameter or less in the inner belt", that
sort of thing.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20415.124737.8e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415175248.A24097@freeman.little-possums.net> <20415.124737.8e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020416081241.C25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Both methane and ammonia will burn with oxygen. So you crack some water
> (thermally or via electrolysis) and use the oxygen to burn the methane
> and ammonia to N2, H20 & CO2. You condense the H20 and crack it to get
> back the oxygen. The CO2 and N2 get either discrard or fed into the
> life support system's atomosphere reprocessing section. 

I don't see what I get from this.

IMTU, there is only a small tank capable of holding LHyd with all the
associated cryogenic systems, ultralow temperature pumps and such
expensive stuff.  It primarily feeds the jump drive when entering
jump.  The rest of the fuel space is designed to hold water which I
can slowly refine using a fuel processor during jump.

So the limit on how much fuel I can hold is how much oxygen is
available to bind the hydrogen into water for my large (and cheap)
tanks.  Discarding CO2 from burning methane is hence worse than just
throwing away the methane.  I might extract some nitrogen from the
ammonia to replenish any atmosphere losses, but that's about it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020416082357.D25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

[Jens wrote:]
> > I could see people turning a small moon into swiss cheese and living in
> > it, but at that point it will cease to be a moon and begin to be a space
> > station built using an asteroid hull.

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
> things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
> buildings and the like.

You can say that again!  A moon of 50 mile diameter has a volume of
about 20 trillion dtons.  Suppose the moon was indeed turned in "swiss
cheese".  Even if only 1% of the space was living quarters, that's
still 200 billion dtons.  Just think how many staterooms you could fit
into that!  Heck, give every single person 2000 cubic metres in that
1% volume (a rather large house, and that's per person, not per
family) and you've still got room for over a billion people.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>; from JFZeigler@aol.com on Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 04:10:04PM -0400
References: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020415163142.B9543@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 04:10:04PM -0400, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> 
> One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of
> rock in a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons
> of inhabited planets, a few large bodies in any given planetoid
> belt, maybe.

I dunno.  If it _can_ be inhabited, it _may_ be inhabited, and good
random tables should reflect this.

I know that when I finally get the GT world generation done for
travlib that it's going to generate population for every world
(i.e. belt, terrestrial planet and moon).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I read [.doc files] with 'rm.'  All you lose is the Microsoft-specific
font selections, the macro viruses and the luser babblings.
                                      --Gary `Wolf' Barnes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <OF66D276C9.2DAD1A83-ON85256B9C.006477EE@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <007401c1e4cf$89095d20$5d9393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Im really looking forward to this. i got an order in at my FLGS already 8)
>
> Bill
>

Then you'll be pleased to learn that I'm working through the final-ish edit
on the "offending article" right now.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:52:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:52:05 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au> <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net> <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <008901c1e4cf$efbbccb0$5d9393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> I sincerely apologise to everyone involved in the T20 project.  My
> forgetting to include a 'smiley' totally changed the emphasis of the
> message and made it seem negative.  IT WAS NOT MEANT TO BE, as I am
> really looking forward to T20.  for those of you who are not aware of
> the Open Gaming licence, using the d20 system means that everything is
> (to a significant degree) interchangeable.  This means that (with only a
> little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
> them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
> terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.

Heh. I must have missed the original post - gone back and found it now - so
I've decided to be mildly (and retrospectively) annoyed - just to make it
worth your time in writing the apology. (grin).

We're in final preparation now. Layout is still to do, but more or less, we
have a product. I'm guessing weeks now.

Regards

MJD




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 17:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr 15 16:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: open source rpg development
Message-ID: <20020415233039.66503.qmail@web11304.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I do wish to point out who is affected by an effort
that results in taking market share from professional
game designers.  Regardless of their original intent. 
It will be the folks like Loren who live on a
shoestring instead of folks like Bill Gates who
already has more money than he has a purpose for.
END QUOTE

But then it could be argued that any one new who has
an original RPG shouldn't publish (openly or
commercially) because it would take market share from
the already established publihers. Now that idea is
ridiculous. However it wouldn't be moral to make a
open source version of Trav, because then you would be
stealing the ideas of people who need them to make a
living. I however feel that if you want to make a new
original RPG you should go ahead. It's a capatilist
society and if you can't compete against FAR competion
than no one is going to subsidise you (unless you have
friend's in government). I do think people like Loren
do deserve our support though (even though I wouldn't
touch GURPS with a ten foot pole)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 17:41:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 16:41:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Changes to First In rules
In-Reply-To: <20020316213935.3edca0b2.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <005001c1e4d7$00aec5c0$0f01a8c0@terry>

> When working on my program for First In star system generation (see my
> other recent post), I decided to make a few minor changes to the way
the
> rules work. Do the changes below sound reasonable?

I was just looking this over to add to mine and realized there is a
problem with your ratios. A standard sector has stellar systems much
more often than your ratios. It looks like your average assumes 200
systems per sector and that is very low for standard. A sector has 32x40
or 1280 hexes and standard is a 1/2 chance per hex for an average of
640. 
 
> 1) A primary star has a 1/500 chance of being a supergiant. This gives
one
> supergiant per 2.5 sectors (of standard stellar density).

Average of 1.28 per sector, limit of one please!
 
> 2) A primary star has a 1/1500 chance of being a type O star,
resulting in
> one type O star per 7.5 sectors.

Average of one per 2.3 sectors.

> 3) A primary star has a 1/500 chance of being a type B star, resulting
in
> one type B star per 2.5 sectors.

Average of 1.28 per sector. 
 
Regards,

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204160006.EDL06288@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right 
>when the user no longer understands what's going on behind 
>the 'curtain'.
>
And how many users know what's going on behind the scenes in 
their browser?  Why is AOL so popular?  Because most people 
don't know and don't care what goes on behind the curtain.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I remember thinking one time when I was staring down
the barrel of a .45, "thank God he does not have a
knife."  Getting penetrated by a knife is 
somehow terrifying, and it also gives the wielder
credible non-lethal options.  I think there have been
several instances in recent times when 
bayonet charges have routed the enemy, even if no one
actually got stabbed. A bayonet would be vital for
handling prisoners, and possibly even reluctant 
heroes.  ;)
END QUOTE

Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
to see is a cloud of dust ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020415.203959.-193407.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

What, because you have dust in your veins instead of blood?  ;-)



                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB75B0.45698CC5@premier.net>


James Ramsay wrote:
> 
> QUOTE
> I remember thinking one time when I was staring down
> the barrel of a .45, "thank God he does not have a
> knife."  Getting penetrated by a knife is
> somehow terrifying, and it also gives the wielder
> credible non-lethal options.  I think there have been
> several instances in recent times when
> bayonet charges have routed the enemy, even if no one
> actually got stabbed. A bayonet would be vital for
> handling prisoners, and possibly even reluctant
> heroes.  ;)
> END QUOTE
> 
> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

And that, sir, is why armies still issue bayonets.... ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020415230829.93725.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
The person who deserves the biggest rocket up the arse
in "Aliens" (military-wise) is the pilot of the
dropship. Though she was originally told that the LZ
had been secured, she'd never make a Traveller-PC
group.
END QUOTE

Thats a bit unfair, it was spunkmeyer who went to take
a piss out side. And I think even recon would get
rattled after the nest encounter. Another thing to
consider is that according to the background material
most of the marines where conscripts. Drake and
Vasquez where convicted criminals and thier sentance
was life in the marines! Now what does that tell you
about the casualty rate of the USCM? No wonder they
only had one squad on a big arse ship like the sulaco!

On a tangent I watched Aliens and Star Wars the other
day and noticed that both use the same type of headset
comunicators. Oh and a funny thing here in Australia,
three of our sailors where arrested for damaging earth
moving equipment! And these people are protecting our
waters?

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 19:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 18:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020416031009.2bda525e.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
> things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
> buildings and the like.

Thank you for hitting me with the "stupid" stick for the second time in
the last days, Leonard  :-)

I'll crawl back into my dark corner now.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 20:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 19:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CT/Book 5 question
Message-ID: <200204160206.EDP04153@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

OK.  Actually a Book 5 question.  Ship has partial 
streamlining. Under the rules, it can do gas giant 
refueling.  If it can move through an upper atmosphere like 
that (presumably at some velocity - after all, we don't want 
to spiral in), can you land such a ship on a world with a 
standard atmosphere?

How does an air/raft do it?  1-G acceleration.  You're riding 
in a vehicle about the size of a HMMWV with the top down.

Feel that wind in your hair...

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 21:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 15 20:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>; from quakers_united@yahoo.com.au on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:36:12AM +1000
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:36:12AM +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
> 
> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

Unless he's the faster...

That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
convincing opposing argument:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Yes, we will want simultaneous translators...No, not when the PM meets
the leaders of the English-speaking nations...Yes, the English-speaking
nations can be said to include the United States.
          --Bernard Wooley, `Yes, Prime Minister'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 22:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon Apr 15 21:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CT/Book 5 question
References: <200204160206.EDP04153@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB9B7E.656C5156@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> OK.  Actually a Book 5 question.  Ship has partial
> streamlining. Under the rules, it can do gas giant
> refueling.  If it can move through an upper atmosphere like
> that (presumably at some velocity - after all, we don't want
> to spiral in), can you land such a ship on a world with a
> standard atmosphere?
>
> How does an air/raft do it?  1-G acceleration.  You're riding
> in a vehicle about the size of a HMMWV with the top down.
>
> Feel that wind in your hair...
>
> ________________
> "Imposed armistices . . . artificially
> freeze conflict and perpetuate a state
> of war indefinitely by shielding the
> weaker side from the consequences of
> refusing to make concessions for peace."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Streamlined ships are trans atmospheric. Air rafts take a number of
hours equal to the UPP size of the planet to orbit/deorbit.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:36:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:36:45 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020416064248.CB2DF279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/15/02 at 03:47 PM,  Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> said:

>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>> Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
>> OTU games.

>You don't think it makes sense that people from highly
>technologically advanced societies are richer than modern-day
>Earthlings?  Especially starship crew, who have to live in cramped
>conditions in a hostile environment for weeks at a time?

No, I don't.  

>Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot
>more than bus drivers.  And people in the US generally get paid a lot
>more than people in most other countries for comparable occupations. 
>So to my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from
>high-tech societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.

The crews of free traders *are* the truck drivers and mechanics of the
TU, and that's how they should be paid. That's my opinion, and how it
works IMTU, YTUMV.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:37:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:37:16 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <001e01c1e492$a431a680$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/15/02 at 11:31 AM,  Christopher Pratt <cdpratt@gatecom.com>
said:

>Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for those
>kinds of speciallized skills... I mean how much does a Airliner pilot
>make now days...

Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:39:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:39:10 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <OF4155728C.34ECCD82-ONCA256B9D.00183047@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Eris opined:
>>> On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:
>>> 
>>>> Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll
>>>> never get my Tigress at this rate.
>>> 
>>> Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
>>> level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
>>> low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
>>> level) per month!  <g>
>
>>Which makes a steward a well paid individual indeed.  That's about
>>$140,160/year in adjusted dollars.  The Pilot is raking in about 210
>>grand a year in 2002 US dollars.
>
>Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
>OTU games.

I don't see much of a problem with it. It is in line with - but not 
excessively over-the-top - the idea that the more high-tech a society, the 
more resources each individual in society has to "spend". All of us on the 
TML, for instance, would be considered tremendously wealthy by folks who 
lived a hundred years ago, let alone when compared to peasants living back 
in the days of William the Conqueror.

Star Trek, for example, portrays this is a nicely understated way by 
removing the tokens of money, but then allowing crewmembers to book time 
on the holodeck, or use the replicator. Remember when Harry 
I've-gone-blank-on-his-surname (Voyager's navigator) decided to forgo his 
replicated meal allowance (and eat Neelix's food! Paris: "Hair? I assume 
that's just an expression?" Neelix: "No!") in order to replicate a violin? 
That's the sort of magical transformation that all those alchemists dreamt 
about! (Actually, they would have been happy with just a lump of gold, but 
you get my drift... ;-).

Originally (in 1977), Marc set 1 credit equal to US$1 - at least, on the 
interstellar beer ratio. I believe that may have been modified in the 
early '80's to Cr 1 = US$2. Then you have the effects of those 
local-vs-Imperial credit exchange rate tables (one appears in an early 
JTAS, for instance) which up's the ante again. In short, a pilot paid 
wages in Imperial credits, who then lands on a backwater world, is in a 
similar situation to a modern-day pilot (paid in, say UK pounds or US $$ - 
not AU$, sorry Phill! ;-) who lands in Rwanda. Or Zimbabwe. Or even India. 
He can lord in about and spend all that cash, or can save it up for his 
time back home on that high-tech homeworld where _one_ air/raft costs 
Cr400,000.

Don't sweat it - it's not _that_ hard to get rid of PC's money. I'm sure 
Eris only gave his PBeM players a ship in order to give them a big black 
money-pit... Just make them keep track of everything. I've had one player 
in my game saying the the others, "I know we're under attack, but these 
missiles are Cr10,000 _each_! Do you know how much this missile salvo is 
going to cost us??" To which I, as DM, coached, "Andrew, you're playing a 
_male_ Aslan. WHO CARES how much those missiles cost, just FIRE!!" As a 
large (toothy ;-) grin appeared from behind his beard, the others realised 
the monetary implications of a trigger-happy gunner. This led nicely to 
the party arguing about how many missiles they were going to "waste" on 
defence, while all the while the nasty pirate was allowed to continue 
lasering away their several-orders-of-magnitude-more-expensive superdense 
hull plating!!  ;-)

Ah, me! Players are good at shooting themselves in the foot. You just have 
to get creative when helping them to aim. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:40:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:40:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
Message-ID: <OFF290291A.CB37BC25-ONCA256B9D.0017EFD0@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>>Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
>>"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
>>
>> The origin is bugging me....
>
>It definitely goes back to at least the mid to late 80s. I thought that I
>might have first seen it in "Striker", which would be around 1981 or so, 
but
>I could be mistaken.

You are not mistaken. It's mentioned in Striker Book 2, part of the 
"Integrating with Traveller" section.

My bet is that it goes back to "Starship Troopers".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:43:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:43:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com> <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>

On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:02:50 +1000, Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

>I'll assume that the 100D limit corresponds to a tidal tension
>of 4e-13 s^-2, and hence that the 10D gradient is 4e-10 s^-2.
>
>Let us suppose that each ship is spherical with an average density of
>500 kg/m^3 (i.e. about 7 tonnes/dton).

I.e., about half that of an equal volume of water.  This is probably a
bit low on the density for most Traveller ships, but it is certainly
not too far off the mark for smaller ships which are capable of ocean
refueling.

>Displacement  Diameter  Mass    10D limit  100D limit
>(dtons)       (m)       (Mg)    (m)        (m)
>100           13.8      685     61.1       611
>1000          29.7      6850    131.7      1317
>10000         64.0      68500   283.8      2838
>100000        138       685000  611.4      6114
>
>As you can see, the hull surface is far inside the 10D limit.
>
>The formulae are pretty simple: mass =3D density * volume,
>volume =3D pi D^3 / 6  for a sphere,
>T =3D 2 G M / R^3.

Thanks for providing the formulas in addition to doing the table.
This certainly is useful for an earlier discussion regarding Jump
Masking (consult the archives if you are curious).

>JR Holmes wrote:
>> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force
>> upon itself
>
>You are.  This is very important in determining Roche's limit, for
>example.

I remain unconvinced in this regard.  "Roche's Limit is the distance
from a planet inside which a satellite will be torn apart by tidal
forces." (from http://www.cvc.org/astronomy/roche_limit.htm) or
"Roche's Limit, which is the distance from a planet at which the
planet's tidal force on a satellite (tending to stretch apart) is
equal to the satellite's self-gravity (tending to hold it together)."
(from http://utrao.as.utexas.edu/ast301/log/log22.html)

As per the above, Roche's Limit is where these tidal forces (a
tensional force) equal the compressional forces of an object's own
gravity.  But this is in regard to the tidal forces exerted _with
regard to another body_.  Without the other body, no tidal force.

It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In another
of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional and
compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive me if
I am interpreting you incorrectly).  I believe you are in error in
this regard.  As per the above, the compressional forces are due to
the object's self-gravity and only the tensional forces are due to the
influence of another body and therefore are tidal forces.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:43:58 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8E09124.3A634%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEKDHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Tod Glenn wrote :
> on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> > In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> > starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> > stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
>
> Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.
> Right when the user no longer understands what's going
> on behind the 'curtain'.

That happens at TL 6 for most people.

How many people actually understand how even an internal
combustion engine works, let alone a computer ?

IME, the vast majority of people (i.e people who don't
subscribe to the TML) effectively consider anything beyond
simple mechanical machines "magic".

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:44:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:44:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
(of radiation effects on fertility)
> Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
> men, if you prefer)?

Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
the testis to ionising radiation.

Larsen Whipsnade wrote :-
> GURPS, in Compendium II, handles this in the following manner.
> If a female has a lifetime dose of 250 rads, her offspring, and
> any problems they may have, are entirely at the GM's discretion.
There probably won't be any offspring (permanent sterility in 75%).

> Realistic?  Yes.
Nah, in GURPS it's usually an excuse for the GM to introduce Weird
Mutant Powers (TM) <g>


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:45:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:45:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.225006.1X5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi,

> Thing is, the density of "rocky" planets (as opposed to gas giants and
> the iceballs you find in the outer system) is pretty uniform.

For Mercury (5.43), Venus (5.24) and Earth (5.52), yes.
For Mars (3.93), any Jovian moon (some of which are considered "rocky", e.g.
Io, at 3.53), and a few others, no.
Personally, I'd reckon that density can vary considerably even for rocky
worlds, say from 3.0 to nearly 7.8 (almost totally iron) or 8.5+ (almost
totally nickel).

> So if there's any sort of safety factor built in to the "100 diameter"
> rule, it'll work fine except in *really* oddball situations (say trying
> to jump close to a *big* nickel-iron asteroid).

So ... if I had a planet with an extremely large Ni-Fe core, and a higher
mean density as a result, say towards 6.5 or 7.0, then the 100D rule would
not be good enough. Another hazard for exploring uncharted systems, I guess.

> The details *do* matter, because the forces at the *hull* of even a
> small ship will *exceed* those from a planet at 100 diameters. That's a
> *unavoidable*.

Leonard, please don't emphasise words with asterisks. It just makes things
harder to read and comes over patronising, even if that's not intended.

*Try* *reading* *this* *sentence* *to* *see* *what* *I* *mean*.

Also, if we have to handwave away the tidal gradient due to the ship's hull,
then I'd argue that the tidal gradient is not the principal factor in a
misjump, no matter how well the figures fit.

> So a ship *has* to be able to compensate for the forces generated by
> its own mass.

Having said that, if that's the case, then maybe that's where all the Jump
Fuel goes - maybe.

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:49:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:49:13 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>

I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
_recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.

Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
like you are too valuable to lose.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:50:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:50:20 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OF79538278.A1B0E48C-ON85256B9C.005AE8D9@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBC25E4.2080505@magpiesnest.co.uk>

William Lane wrote:

> has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a line at
> wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.
> 
Certainly have Bill (though now I tend to use JAXP, which is based around Xerces but has differences). Send me your questions and I will do my best to answer them for you.



-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:56:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:56:07 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW! I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <F165K8onzvMMl6Dcu4n00003775@hotmail.com>

Congratulations, Jeff!  Thanks for *your* work!


>From: Jeff Zeitlin <editor@freelancetraveller.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
>Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 07:23:41 -0400
>
>I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
>protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
>Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
>flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
>never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
>_recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
>
>Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
>allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
>more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
>you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
>like you are too valuable to lose.
>
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
>Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
>http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
>http://www.freelancetraveller.com
>http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
>editor@freelancetraveller.com
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
Message-ID: <OF8A9C8510.72B94182-ON85256B9D.004D468D@pheaa.org>








>> has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a line at
>> wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.

>Certainly have Bill (though now I tend to use JAXP, which is based around
Xerces but has differences). Send me your >questions and I will do my best
to answer them for you.


Here is what im doing im developing a java application that reads an xml
file and parses it into 3 seperate COBOL data files. the cobol group
eventually runs their apps and uses the data from these flat files. once
they are through they send them back to me. i then want to parse these 3
files into a single new xml file.

i have gotten to where i am creating the new document. i can append
children on it ect.. ect..

however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to actually be
written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im new to XML and Xerces
is not the best documented thing i have ever worked with. i was looking at
maybe using the serializer to send a outPutStream through it. but it would
seem to me that xerces should have a way of building this document out on
the drive.

but maybe im just wishful thinking 8P

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:17:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RULES - Skill Lvl. 0
Message-ID: <12414.1018957560@www34.gmx.net>

Hello Together,

I'm kind of new to actually play Megatraveller. Now I've encountered a
problem regarding 'Skill-Level-0-serves-as-Level-minus-1-Skills'. My Problem is :
If you have a Skill at Level 0 (e.g. Grav Vehicle-0), and this Skill 'serves
as' another Skill at Level minus 1 (Grav Vehicle serves as Grav Belt -1), at
which Level do I execute the 'served' Skill (Grav Belt)?
at : Level -1 (-> giving a negative DM of 1)?
at : Level 0 (-> minimum Skill-Level is allways 0)?
or not at all (-> there are no 'served' Skills for Level-0-Skills)?

Is there an official rule (which I did not find - sorry), or any other
sollutions?

Thank you, Sebastian

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>

Stephen Tempest posts:
>Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =20

Shouldnt the hull code be Z? I though Y was for 1,000,000 to 
1,999,999. Z was for anything above that. 

>MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
Architects fees? Anyone?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:51:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:51:14 2002
Subject: [TML] List outtage
Message-ID: <B8E1855D.3A929%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all,

Owing to an uncheduled outage on the part of my ISP, the mailing list hosted
at TravellerCentral.com were unavailable from about 11pm last night (PST)
until early this morning.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Tod
-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Marsh)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
Message-ID: <F58wAeRaNgEpTX5V3Gy00000309@hotmail.com>

I do not have my LBB in front of me; I thought the term was first used in 
Book 4 either with the illustration of the Forward Observer or in the Iron 
Mongery section. This would have well preceded Striker. Can anyone confirm 
this? (I agree it was prob. lifted from some fiction)


>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
>Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 16:17:04 +1000
>
>Dear Folks -
>
> >>Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> >>"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
> >>
> >> The origin is bugging me....
> >
> >It definitely goes back to at least the mid to late 80s. I thought that I
> >might have first seen it in "Striker", which would be around 1981 or so,
>but
> >I could be mistaken.
>
>You are not mistaken. It's mentioned in Striker Book 2, part of the
>"Integrating with Traveller" section.
>
>My bet is that it goes back to "Starship Troopers".
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014401c1e55a$62849d00$1f9e15ac@warrior>

hmm... good point... both the part about the PC scrapping for cash, and the
IYTU justification for it...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 12:58 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?


> On 04/15/02 at 11:31 AM,  Christopher Pratt <cdpratt@gatecom.com>
> said:
>
> >Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for those
> >kinds of speciallized skills... I mean how much does a Airliner pilot
> >make now days...
>
> Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
> skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
> They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
> thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
> in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
> living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.
>
> Eris
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
In-Reply-To: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075705.009f3cf0@mindspring.com>

At 07:23 AM 4/16/02 -0400, you wrote:

>I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
>protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
>Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
>flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
>never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
>_recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
>
>Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
>allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
>more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
>you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
>like you are too valuable to lose.

Hey, you earned it!

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
end of the world is fast approaching."
- Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:26:28 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8E09124.3A634%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204151758.ECZ05255@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>

At 02:16 PM 4/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>
> > In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> > starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> > stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
>
>Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right when the user no
>longer understands what's going on behind the 'curtain'.

Hell, for me that's today!  I can use my comp[uter, but for all I know, 
this beige box is actually home to a tribe of magic pixes.

There was a great SF story written years ago, might even have been golden 
age, about a bunch of scientists who build a time machine. They can grab 
one person from the future.  They get an ad executive.  Sure there are 
cancer curesm flying cars, etc, but he just knows how to use them, not how 
they work.

I still find it amazing and rather magical that this little bit of dreck 
will be read by people on the other side of the planet (hi Jens and Hans!) 
I sort of understand that it will be shuffled around by a lot of computers 
that do that sort of thing, but beyond that?  Nothing.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
In-Reply-To: <OF8A9C8510.72B94182-ON85256B9D.004D468D@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCMECKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

William

I did mail you off list ... but since you replied to the list, well, hey ...
;-)

> however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to actually be
> written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im new to XML
> and Xerces
> is not the best documented thing i have ever worked with. i was looking at
> maybe using the serializer to send a outPutStream through it. but it would
> seem to me that xerces should have a way of building this document out on
> the drive.

Try the following sort of thing -

try {
		myFileWriter = new FileWriter( "filename.xml");
		myFileWriter.flush();

		myDocumentImpl = new DocumentImpl();

		// ...



// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
		// Code to generate root element here, omitted for clarity


// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-


		// ...

		OutputFormat myOutputFormat = new OutputFormat( myDocumentImpl );
		myOutputFormat.setIndent( 4 );
		myOutputFormat.setIndenting( true );

		myOutputFormat.setDoctype( "filename.dtd" , "filename.dtd" );

		myXMLSerializer = new XMLSerializer( myOutputFormat );
		myXMLSerializer.setOutputCharStream( myFileWriter );


		// ...



// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
		// Generate the rest of the document, again omitted for clarity, then
write it


// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

		// ...

		myXMLSerializer.serialize( myDocumentImpl );
		myOutputFormat.flush();
	}
catch ( IOException ioe )
	{
	}

Hope this helps.

Andy B

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204161835500.25492-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
> Hell, for me that's today!  I can use my comp[uter, but for all I know, 
> this beige box is actually home to a tribe of magic pixes.
[snip]
> I still find it amazing and rather magical that this little bit of dreck 
> will be read by people on the other side of the planet (hi Jens and Hans!) 
> I sort of understand that it will be shuffled around by a lot of computers 
> that do that sort of thing, but beyond that?  Nothing.

The more I get to know about how things work, the more I think that they
are indeed powered by magic. And mathematics, which is almost the same
stuff. B-)

Trust me, you are better off not knowing how computer networks are built.
You might wonder how they do work at all... B-)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
Message-ID: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>







>I did mail you off list ... but since you replied to the list, well, hey
...
>;-)

Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
info.

Bill












From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RULES - Skill Lvl. 0
In-Reply-To: <12414.1018957560@www34.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAECLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hello

Originally, Skill Level - 0 meant no skill at all, and Skill Level - 1/2
meant some familiarity at a basic level, enough to avoid a penalty for
absolutely no ability or knowledge but not enough to actually grant a +DM.

Then it changed, so that the absence of the skill on a character sheet meant
no skill at all, and 0 meant some familiarity.

I rule that if you have Skill Level - 0 in something, then the next level
down would be no knowledge at all or the "absence" condition above.

Basically, Skill Level - 0 invokes no bonus and incurs no penalty. It does
not mean that you have Skill Level - 0 in a related skill, you're a
greenhorn with some learnin' is all.

Andy B.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:45:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:45:29 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCECLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> There was a great SF story written years ago, might even have been golden
> age, about a bunch of scientists who build a time machine. They can grab
> one person from the future.  They get an ad executive.  Sure there are
> cancer curesm flying cars, etc, but he just knows how to use
> them, not how they work.

Now that is what I call a grade A bad day ... pulling an ad exec from the
future - yeuch !

Andy B


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204161835500.25492-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <20020416155310.3125.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

> You might wonder how they do work at all... B-)

The place I used to work had an exceptionally
dimwitted programmer.  I mean, sitting listening to
his ideas for solving problems (the few he had) was an
exercise in humor at the least.  In any case, he would
work well into the night when code was due and his
stuff would eventually come close to working.  When we
found a bug, we looked for the code and it appeared
that the code was not doing what the system was doing.
 To this day, we swear he must've been sacrificing
chickens or virgins or virgin chickens or something to
get the stuff to work.

ObTrav:  There is a (Star Trek created?) stereotype of
the engineer who can fix anything but no one can tell
how he does it.  What other stereotypes are common in
your games?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:11:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:11:15 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
In-Reply-To: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <B8E19A80.35FF%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

on 4/16/02 4:23 AM, Jeff Zeitlin at editor@freelancetraveller.com wrote:

> I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
> protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
> Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
> flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
> never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
> _recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
> 
> Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
> allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
> more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
> you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
> like you are too valuable to lose.
> 

You deserve a lot more credit than you're giving yourself, Jeff.

I've submitted a couple of things, and Jeff not only posts them, he does an
wonderful job at layout, making them much easier to read than the raw text I
gave him (and probably making them a better read than they actually are).
That is a LOT of work, and it shows.  The whole site is great.

I'm giving you a standing ovation (well, not now, I'm typing - OK, there it
was, did you feel it?).

Thanks Jeff, you are the Fourth Force in Traveller support.

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:15:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:15:47 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <OF7A3367D5.83EB7401-ON85256B9D.0057F13F@pheaa.org>




<snip>
The place I used to work had an exceptionally
dimwitted programmer.  I mean, sitting listening to
his ideas for solving problems (the few he had) was an
exercise in humor at the least.
</snip>

Hmm you know i feel just like that right now. the Dimwitted Programmer 8(


>we swear he must've been sacrificing
>chickens or virgins or virgin chickens or something to
>get the stuff to work.

So if it works where can i get any of the above? or would a Groat do as
well?


OBTRAV:

The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
other.

Captain asks "What are you doing?"

New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"

Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P







From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:33:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:33:52 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <F20f7SMIaeYt2KoTstO00000c20@hotmail.com>

>From: "William Lane" <wlane@aessuccess.org>
>
>
>OBTRAV:
>
>The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
>Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
>engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
>Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
>other.
>
>Captain asks "What are you doing?"
>
>New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
>works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
>
>Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P

Jason Wright, the Merchant Ex-scout I play in Eris' Reaver's Deep game just 
raced into the engineering spaces when the gunner asked why the new engineer 
was taking apart the jump drive (since we were planning on lifting next day 
or so).

He raced in to find the Vargr hanging upside down with panels open and 
probes inserted, and the practical joking vargr with a flash bang for just 
such an occurance.

I'm wondering about her right now.  Current odds are that she'll make it 
through the first jump, but we'll space her during the second...

;-)

Thanks, Eris, for the Black-hole Money Pit which has seperated us from much 
money...

Greg

aka Rewock Mopit

Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:40:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:40:15 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204161638.EET02699@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Andrew MacLintock" says
>
>Jason Wright, the Merchant Ex-scout I play in Eris' Reaver's 
>Deep game just raced into the engineering spaces when the 
>gunner asked why the new engineer was taking apart the jump 
>drive (since we were planning on lifting next day 
>or so).
>
>He raced in to find the Vargr hanging upside down with 
>panels open and probes inserted, and the practical joking 
>vargr with a flash bang for just such an occurance.
>
>I'm wondering about her right now.  Current odds are that 
>she'll make it 
>through the first jump, but we'll space her during the 
>second...
>

Don't laugh.  When I was in Pershing (nuclear missiles, yes), 
we used to supplicate unto Dis, the God of Chaos, and ask for 
the Gift of Pre-Emptive Causality to take our bad luck away 
and bestow it upon the other missile platoons.

It worked.  Boy did it ever.  It got so bad that we were 
ordered to stop worshipping Dis.

Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from 
the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up 
during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and 
said, "Behold, Our God!".
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <200204161638.EET02699@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416131656.00b84c10@urbin.net>

At 12:38 PM 4/16/02 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
[snip]
>Don't laugh.  When I was in Pershing (nuclear missiles, yes),
>we used to supplicate unto Dis, the God of Chaos, and ask for
>the Gift of Pre-Emptive Causality to take our bad luck away
>and bestow it upon the other missile platoons.
>It worked.  Boy did it ever.  It got so bad that we were
>ordered to stop worshipping Dis.
>Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from
>the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
>again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up
>during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and
>said, "Behold, Our God!".

My keyboard is grateful that I wasn't drinking at the time.
I'm still chuckling though, that counts as a kill.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:27:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:27:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com> <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>

As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
something:

At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEJMDKAA.tml@downport.com>

I think that would be a fine use for a lot of those extra, windbag nobles we
have lying around the Imperium. Make them barristers, judges, justices,
notaries public or attorneys general! Do something to stop them cluttering
up the casinos and VIP lounges.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Texas Redshift

As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
something:

At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:43:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:43:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <200204161741.EEV03115@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Texas Redshift" says
>How litigous is the Imperium?
I'm not even sure there's an Imperial Supreme Court.  The 
individual governments seem to have their own laws and 
courts.  There is also the idea expressed in canon that this 
is a different age, where lawsuits across the Imperium do not 
happen.

There might be some legal agreements between various 
systems.  

But IMHO, the litigation level depends on the law level and 
the government type.

One of the first Traveller adventures I was in (1979), we 
were in a ground car accident - minor fender bender.  I 
hadn't gotten the idea down that there was Law Level Zero.

I got out of the car with the others, and asked the other 
driver if he had insurance.  He said, "No."  So I said to my 
friends, "I think we should wait for the police."  They 
laughed and said, "Hey stupid, there are no police."

So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the 
occupants of the other car without warning.  Then we went 
through their pockets for loose change.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018978883.2225.ajackson@ping>

Texas Redshift writes:
> As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
> something:
> 
> At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
> Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
> judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Depends on the world.  There are canon references to 'government of men, not
laws', which implies on the interstellar level it's not litigous per se, and
annoying the local judge with frivolous suits is probably a poor idea.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] CSC software
Message-ID: <200204161814.EEV08005@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I keep seeing references to this.  Is it still available?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416121821.009f23a0@mail.attbi.com>

	Here is a question for you technical types.
	Would a sandcaster actually work as well in the real world as it is 
portrayed in canon?  Also, would a sandcaster affect a particle beam at all?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:33:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:33:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F1633Sv0YKpDS7hx27k00013014@hotmail.com>

Perhaps contracts would provide that disputes would be resolved in a certain 
forum.  For instance, all disputes must be resolved in the Third District 
Court of Regina/Regina or by binding arbitration of the merchant guild or by 
Quickcourts, LIC.

If the Imperium operates as a functioning far-flung market economy, which 
seems to be the case, it must have some efficient method of dispute 
resolution.

>Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
>Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

Was there is an old JTAS article on Imperial justice?

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:35:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:35:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416121821.009f23a0@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018981937.7543.ajackson@ping>

Dale Gyles writes:
>      Here is a question for you technical types.
>      Would a sandcaster actually work as well in the real world as it is 
> portrayed in canon?  Also, would a sandcaster affect a particle beam at
> all? 

Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would work
reasonably well against just about any weapon.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:40:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:40:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <200204161837.EEX02352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Dale Gyles says
>
>	Here is a question for you technical types.
>	Would a sandcaster actually work as well in the real 
>world as it is portrayed in canon?  Also, would a sandcaster 
>affect a particle beam at all?
>
The spot size for the projected SBL is around a foot in 
diameter. The US Air Force is assuming that missiles will be 
painted or coated to optimize reflectivity, and they also 
anticipate that the missiles will spin to reduce the 
effectiveness of the laser.  "Sand" or some sort of 
particulate matter that interferes with the operation of the 
beam, would have to be held in close proximity to the ship.  
The beam has such a small spot size, that to effectively 
maintain a density of sand which would reduce the 
effectiveness of the beam means that you cannot allow it to 
disperse.  There are also plasmas that can be formed that 
might increase the reflectivity of the ship itself at the 
expense of increasing the ship''s signature.

The main way that the SBL intends to defeat reflective 
coatings, spinning, heavier construction, ablative coatings, 
and other countermeasures is to scale up the power.  In the 
case of missiles, they give good arguments as to why the 
countermeasures are, within an ability to hold the beam on 
target for four seconds, ineffective.  That is, with current 
tech, the coatings and spinning are already factored into the 
laser's design.  

As for a particle beam, the amount of material is so 
miniscule, and so thinly spread (the beam is probably 
neutrons), that sand would be useless.  These beams are also 
regarded as being more effective at penetrating armor (from 
the point of view of the Air Force) than a laser.  Both 
radiation damage and deep heating are expected to occur with 
a particle beam weapon.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CSC software
References: <200204161814.EEV08005@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC70CD.1060806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I keep seeing references to this.  Is it still available?

At Bits:

http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/BITS_website/Productsfolder/prod_INFV.htm

Mac only, but a sweet piece of software, if I do say so myself.

For some examples of designs see:

http://oscar.pharmacy.arizona.edu/csc_page.html

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <200204161837.EEX02352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018982859.1183.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> As for a particle beam, the amount of material is so 
> miniscule, and so thinly spread (the beam is probably 
> neutrons), that sand would be useless.  These beams are also 
> regarded as being more effective at penetrating armor (from 
> the point of view of the Air Force) than a laser.  Both 
> radiation damage and deep heating are expected to occur with 
> a particle beam weapon.

Erm.  Probably not neutrons, you can't accelerate them or aim them, though a
space-based particle beam would accelerate ions and then remove the charge,
resulting in a neutral particle beam (penetration would not be better than a
charged particle beam).  Problem with particle beams is they're very difficult
to focus.  Advantage is if you crank the per-particle energies high enough, the
levels of shielding possible on a realistic missile are pretty much irrelevant,
and you can radiation-cook the entire missile.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J A (Jim) Cooper)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
References: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c1e577$fb937b20$9c8c4218@mshome.net>

I would also like to add my congratulations to those of DB and JW. I have
used the sight often and repeatedly.
Keep up the good work.

Jim Cooper

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Zeitlin" <editor@freelancetraveller.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 4:23 AM
Subject: [TML] WOW! I'm massively flattered!


> I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
> protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
> Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
> flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
> never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
> _recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
>
> Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
> allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
> more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
> you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on;
people
> like you are too valuable to lose.
>
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
> Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
> http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
> http://www.freelancetraveller.com
> http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
> editor@freelancetraveller.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <200204161741.EEV03115@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC7D4F.7020102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> I got out of the car with the others, and asked the other 
> driver if he had insurance.  He said, "No."  So I said to my 
> friends, "I think we should wait for the police."  They 
> laughed and said, "Hey stupid, there are no police."
> 
> So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the 
> occupants of the other car without warning.  Then we went 
> through their pockets for loose change.

How long did your party survive before the local residents rounded you 
up and hung you?

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:37:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:37:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>

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In a message dated 15/04/02 17:23:52 GMT Daylight Time, 
firelock_ny@hotmail.com writes:


> One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
> only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
> than they pay out in claims.
> 
> If you are a large enough organization, like a Mega-Corp,
> then your insurable losses from any particular event should
> be low enough (as a percentage of your total income) that it
> will be a better option for you to absorb the losses as they
> occur rather than continuously pay out insurance premiums.
> You'll "self-insure", by keeping cash on hand enough to cover emergencies 
> and accidents.  This is a good way for a large
> enough company to do business, since this "cash on hand",
> while it's on hand, can be earning for the company while
> insurance premiums are gone.

I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Any company, no matter how large, that 
believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
disaster. Trivial accidents, like the loss of a starship or the destruction 
of a drilling platform, are by their nature unpredictable and that is one of 
the best reasons for having insurance. True a single trivial accident can be 
absorbed easily but what about ten or twenty close together?

How can money put aside to insure against risk earn money for the company? It 
has to be safe and readily available at all times. You can't simply leave it 
sitting in an account - AFAIK banks simply don't pay interest on huge sums. 
That leaves you with safe but easily accessible investments which may not 
earn as much as the new unobtanium extraction rig you could have built with 
the money. And how do we decide how much to put aside? We need a specialist 
department to calculate risk and analyse patterns to decide what risks we 
should cover and how much we should put aside. Why not make it easy for 
ourselves and use a specialist outside contractor to do all the hard work?

> 
> If a catastrophe happens that destroys more value of your
> megacorp assets than you would have been paying out in
> insurance premiums, then chances are a war caused it - and
> insurance companies are noted for not paying out claims
> on damage caused by acts of war anyway.

Not neccessarily so - let's say that my mega-corp discovers this fantastic 
new fire-retarding, insulation material. It's easy and cheap to make and can 
be cut and moulded to all sorts of shapes. We call it Sotsebsa and it sells 
like hot cakes. Unfortunately it soon turns out that our wonder product has 
some undocumented problems - mostly it's safe but if you breathe in its dust 
you develop a really nasty, debilitating and fatal lung disease. True high TL 
medicine can cure it in a snap but we mostly sold this stuff on moderate tech 
worlds and millions of people are claiming we've poisoned them.

Now the cost of an individual claim is trivial but the cost of millions is 
not, particularly as we're not going to accept responsibility anywhere in 
case it sets a precedent. What's more our investors can see they're returns 
dwindling, after all we're spending more and more money on defence and 
compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral - 
we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet all of 
them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet these costs. 
Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have previously paid 
them, saving us in the long run, money.

And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want absorb 
the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to perform some 
unplanned demolition on the local school district? 

> 
> So, you'll have two tiers of starship out there.  The
> small or independent operator, who buys insurance (since a
> single event will likely put him out of business otherwise).
> The large corp, which may self-insure (that is, put money
> aside to cover replacement, rather than pay out premiums).

As I said above it's not just a question of assets. Does the mega-corp just 
cover the replacement of its starship or does it cover the potential loss of 
an up-port, down-port, all the other ships in dock, assorted cats, dogs and 
groats plus the mental well-being of little old ladies? If it's the former 
how much money does the mega-corp put aside to cover the legal costs of 
fighting the claims of the other groups? Again it makes far better business 
sense to transfer the risk to someone else. 

> 
> If most of a starport's traffic is megacorp vessels,
> then that starport won't have the insurance industry
> involved as much with starport safety requirements.
> The megacorp may have to post a bond of some sort, but
> this bond may be a trivial formality if the megacorp
> is in bed with the local starport authority...which they
> probably will be, the megacorp likely built the bed,
> washed the linens and hired the nubile young bedwarmers.
> 
> The small independent operator may have to post a bond
> of sorts to gain access to a starport as well.  This bond
> may well be posted by the independent operator's insurance
> carrier on behalf of all the carrier's clients, with the
> insurance carrier requiring operators to meet certain
> safety guidelines to get coverage and access to the bond.
> 
> Walt Smith
> 

I agree there will be different standards for private operators and 
mega-corps but that doesn't mean that mega-corps will self-insure. My 
argument is that the job of assessing risk and betting that accidents won't 
happen is a specialised business. Mega-corps, although they might have 
insurance arms, are not in the business of risking that they won't have the 
funds needed to cover a disaster. It is far easier, and in the long run more 
cost effective, to transfer risk to someone else.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 15/04/02 17:23:52 GMT Daylight Time, firelock_ny@hotmail.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">One thing to remember about insurance companies:&nbsp; they are<BR>
only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums<BR>
than they pay out in claims.<BR>
<BR>
If you are a large enough organization, like a Mega-Corp,<BR>
then your insurable losses from any particular event should<BR>
be low enough (as a percentage of your total income) that it<BR>
will be a better option for you to absorb the losses as they<BR>
occur rather than continuously pay out insurance premiums.<BR>
You'll "self-insure", by keeping cash on hand enough to cover emergencies <BR>
and accidents.&nbsp; This is a good way for a large<BR>
enough company to do business, since this "cash on hand",<BR>
while it's on hand, can be earning for the company while<BR>
insurance premiums are gone.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Any company, no matter how large, that believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to disaster. Trivial accidents, like the loss of a starship or the destruction of a drilling platform, are by their nature unpredictable and that is one of the best reasons for having insurance. True a single trivial accident can be absorbed easily but what about ten or twenty close together?<BR>
<BR>
How can money put aside to insure against risk earn money for the company? It has to be safe and readily available at all times. You can't simply leave it sitting in an account - AFAIK banks simply don't pay interest on huge sums. That leaves you with safe but easily accessible investments which may not earn as much as the new unobtanium extraction rig you could have built with the money. And how do we decide how much to put aside? We need a specialist department to calculate risk and analyse patterns to decide what risks we should cover and how much we should put aside. Why not make it easy for ourselves and use a specialist outside contractor to do all the hard work?</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
If a catastrophe happens that destroys more value of your<BR>
megacorp assets than you would have been paying out in<BR>
insurance premiums, then chances are a war caused it - and<BR>
insurance companies are noted for not paying out claims<BR>
on damage caused by acts of war anyway.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Not neccessarily so - let's say that my mega-corp discovers this fantastic new fire-retarding, insulation material. It's easy and cheap to make and can be cut and moulded to all sorts of shapes. We call it Sotsebsa and it sells like hot cakes. Unfortunately it soon turns out that our wonder product has some undocumented problems - mostly it's safe but if you breathe in its dust you develop a really nasty, debilitating and fatal lung disease. True high TL medicine can cure it in a snap but we mostly sold this stuff on moderate tech worlds and millions of people are claiming we've poisoned them.<BR>
<BR>
Now the cost of an individual claim is trivial but the cost of millions is not, particularly as we're not going to accept responsibility anywhere in case it sets a precedent. What's more our investors can see they're returns dwindling, after all we're spending more and more money on defence and compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral - we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet all of them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet these costs. Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have previously paid them, saving us in the long run, money.<BR>
<BR>
And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want absorb the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to perform some unplanned demolition on the local school district? </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
So, you'll have two tiers of starship out there.&nbsp; The<BR>
small or independent operator, who buys insurance (since a<BR>
single event will likely put him out of business otherwise).<BR>
The large corp, which may self-insure (that is, put money<BR>
aside to cover replacement, rather than pay out premiums).</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">As I said above it's not just a question of assets. Does the mega-corp just cover the replacement of its starship or does it cover the potential loss of an up-port, down-port, all the other ships in dock, assorted cats, dogs and groats plus the mental well-being of little old ladies? If it's the former how much money does the mega-corp put aside to cover the legal costs of fighting the claims of the other groups? Again it makes far better business sense to transfer the risk to someone else. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
If most of a starport's traffic is megacorp vessels,<BR>
then that starport won't have the insurance industry<BR>
involved as much with starport safety requirements.<BR>
The megacorp may have to post a bond of some sort, but<BR>
this bond may be a trivial formality if the megacorp<BR>
is in bed with the local starport authority...which they<BR>
probably will be, the megacorp likely built the bed,<BR>
washed the linens and hired the nubile young bedwarmers.<BR>
<BR>
The small independent operator may have to post a bond<BR>
of sorts to gain access to a starport as well.&nbsp; This bond<BR>
may well be posted by the independent operator's insurance<BR>
carrier on behalf of all the carrier's clients, with the<BR>
insurance carrier requiring operators to meet certain<BR>
safety guidelines to get coverage and access to the bond.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I agree there will be different standards for private operators and mega-corps but that doesn't mean that mega-corps will self-insure. My argument is that the job of assessing risk and betting that accidents won't happen is a specialised business. Mega-corps, although they might have insurance arms, are not in the business of risking that they won't have the funds needed to cover a disaster. It is far easier, and in the long run more cost effective, to transfer risk to someone else.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:46:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:46:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC7F09.6050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
> skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
> They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
> thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
> in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
> living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.


Eris' methods:

PC's inherit fine, functioning starship. PC's overjoyed, one 
particularly stupid one makes dumb DUMB comments about how easy it'll be 
to compete with ship owners who have a mortgage to pay. (Gee I wonder 
who?;-)

Bad guys steal ship.

Space Patroooool to the Rescuuue! <sound of inspirational music, 
punctuated by large explosions>

Space Patrol "Here. We caught the hijackers and recovered your ship. 
Thank us!"

PC's "But there are large holes in our ship where there used to be a 
jump drive, a drive controller, and a safe in the ship's locker"

SP: "Well they didn't surrender peacefully. Thank us and don't ask 
questions."

PC's notice that SP officer is wearing secret police uniform."Thank you"

PC's go to bank and get large loan to get ship flying again.

<scrape scrape> Hold up cardboard signs "Will carry stuff for credits" 
just like all the other free traders...
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:48:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:48:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson asks
>
>How long did your party survive before the local residents 
>rounded you  up and hung you?
>
That was the problem.  They had friends.  We got back to 
town, and they heard about it.  Later that day, when we were 
strolling into the front foyer of the guest house were were 
staying at, three men stepped into the room and opened up on 
us with submachineguns.  Of the six people in our party, one 
survived.  The three attackers died, but the locals were 
steamed enough to shoot the survivor after hearing his tale.

It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
received.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 03:36:24PM -0400
References: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020416135830.A13448@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 03:36:24PM -0400, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have to disagree, I'm afraid.  Any company, no matter how large, that 
> believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
> disaster.

But that's what an insurance company does...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Whenever you walk by a computer and see someone using pico, be kind.
Pause for a second and remind yourself that: `There, but for the grace
of God, go I.'                                           --Harley Hahn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:12:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:12:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018987914.6966.ajackson@ping>

CHam628781@aol.com writes:
> In a message dated 15/04/02 17:23:52 GMT Daylight Time, 
> firelock_ny@hotmail.com writes:
> 
> > One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
> > only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
> > than they pay out in claims.

This isn't actually true.  It's enough if 'payments plus interest on payments'
exceeds average payout.

> I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Any company, no matter how large, that 
> believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
> disaster. Trivial accidents, like the loss of a starship or the destruction
>  of a drilling platform, are by their nature unpredictable and that is one
> of  the best reasons for having insurance. True a single trivial accident
> can be  absorbed easily but what about ten or twenty close together?

Beyond a certain point, there's no choice.  Also, businesses do sometimes fail.
> 
> How can money put aside to insure against risk earn money for the company?

You 'put it aside' in assets and investments.

> It  has to be safe and readily available at all times.

Nah.  Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the
resources and reputation of the company.
> compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral
> -  we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet
> all of  them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet
> these costs.  Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have
> previously paid  them, saving us in the long run, money.

Well, given that it's your fault, the insurance is likely to be reluctant to
pay anyway.
> 
> And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want
> absorb  the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to
> perform some  unplanned demolition on the local school district? 

Many real-world large companies do exactly that.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <200204162032.EFB01691@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

We could go on and discuss how reserves are handled, explain 
the concept of the "book of business", and talk about 
reinsurance.

IMTU I feel that ship insurance is handled much more like 
Lloyd's (with individuals teaming up to take on risk) rather 
than like the auto insurance model.  Starships seem so much 
more risky than automobiles, and the payout on loss is so 
high, that I can truly see it taking a form resembling 
organized gambling (which is, after all, what Lloyd's is 
running - the world's highest paying casino - hope you don't 
lose).

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <200204161638.EET02699@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416132832.009ffd60@mindspring.com>

At 12:38 PM 4/16/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Don't laugh.  When I was in Pershing (nuclear missiles, yes),
>we used to supplicate unto Dis, the God of Chaos, and ask for
>the Gift of Pre-Emptive Causality to take our bad luck away
>and bestow it upon the other missile platoons.

"Humans, humans pay your dues
Just two paths that you get to chose
Feed us right, or fight and lose
Gremlins everywhere."  - Leslie Fish

I knew mechanics who would, with all seriousness, leave out plates of milk 
for the Gremlins.  These units had the highest readiness rates in the brigade.

>It worked.  Boy did it ever.  It got so bad that we were
>ordered to stop worshipping Dis.

Does the phrase "freedom of religion" mean anything?  I was openly a 
Discordian while in the service.

>Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from
>the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
>again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up
>during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and
>said, "Behold, Our God!".

Actually, I would have thought it would be the Sergeant Major who had a 
problem with that.. you know how they hate competiton.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <15c.be25cf3.29ede8fa@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 20:59:44 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:


> > I have to disagree, I'm afraid.  Any company, no matter how large, that 
> > believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
> > disaster.
> 
> But that's what an insurance company does...
> 

No, insurance companies tend to insure themselves against risk as well. I 
believe there's even a well established branch of business that deals with it 
- can't remember the name though :(

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 20:59:44 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; I have to disagree, I'm afraid.&nbsp; Any company, no matter how large, that <BR>
&gt; believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to <BR>
&gt; disaster.<BR>
<BR>
But that's what an insurance company does...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
No, insurance companies tend to insure themselves against risk as well. I believe there's even a well established branch of business that deals with it - can't remember the name though :(<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <158.c6ba94a.29ede9ff@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 21:13:08 GMT Daylight Time, 
ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:


> > It  has to be safe and readily available at all times.
> 
> Nah.  Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the
> resources and reputation of the company.

Which is harder if you the people you are borrowing from know that you have 
no way of spreading the risk.

> > compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a 
> spiral
> > -  we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet
> > all of  them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet
> > these costs.  Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have
> > previously paid  them, saving us in the long run, money.
> 
> Well, given that it's your fault, the insurance is likely to be reluctant 
> to
> pay anyway.

Fault is not always relevant from an insurance companies point of view. It 
may be stuck with representing you whether it likes it or not.

> > 
> > And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want
> > absorb  the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to
> > perform some  unplanned demolition on the local school district? 
> 
> Many real-world large companies do exactly that.
> 
Not the sensible ones,

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 21:13:08 GMT Daylight Time, ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; It&nbsp; has to be safe and readily available at all times.<BR>
<BR>
Nah.&nbsp; Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the<BR>
resources and reputation of the company.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Which is harder if you the people you are borrowing from know that you have no way of spreading the risk.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral<BR>
&gt; -&nbsp; we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet<BR>
&gt; all of&nbsp; them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet<BR>
&gt; these costs.&nbsp; Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have<BR>
&gt; previously paid&nbsp; them, saving us in the long run, money.<BR>
<BR>
Well, given that it's your fault, the insurance is likely to be reluctant to<BR>
pay anyway.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Fault is not always relevant from an insurance companies point of view. It may be stuck with representing you whether it likes it or not.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; <BR>
&gt; And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want<BR>
&gt; absorb&nbsp; the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to<BR>
&gt; perform some&nbsp; unplanned demolition on the local school district? <BR>
<BR>
Many real-world large companies do exactly that.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
Not the sensible ones,<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:58:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:58:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <103.13d0e078.29edea3d@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 21:33:55 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com 
writes:


> We could go on and discuss how reserves are handled, explain 
> the concept of the "book of business", and talk about 
> reinsurance.
> 
> IMTU I feel that ship insurance is handled much more like 
> Lloyd's (with individuals teaming up to take on risk) rather 
> than like the auto insurance model.  Starships seem so much 
> more risky than automobiles, and the payout on loss is so 
> high, that I can truly see it taking a form resembling 
> organized gambling (which is, after all, what Lloyd's is 
> running - the world's highest paying casino - hope you don't 
> lose).
> 

I like Lloyds - there's nothing more satisfying than watching the complacent 
rich get their come-uppance ;)

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 21:33:55 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">We could go on and discuss how reserves are handled, explain <BR>
the concept of the "book of business", and talk about <BR>
reinsurance.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU I feel that ship insurance is handled much more like <BR>
Lloyd's (with individuals teaming up to take on risk) rather <BR>
than like the auto insurance model.&nbsp; Starships seem so much <BR>
more risky than automobiles, and the payout on loss is so <BR>
high, that I can truly see it taking a form resembling <BR>
organized gambling (which is, after all, what Lloyd's is <BR>
running - the world's highest paying casino - hope you don't <BR>
lose).<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I like Lloyds - there's nothing more satisfying than watching the complacent rich get their come-uppance ;)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:59:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:59:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com>

Anthony Jackson writes:
<Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would 
work
reasonably well against just about any weapon.>

Ok, what is the difference between sand and chaff?  I always that chaff was 
strips of foil cut to a particular length of the
wavelength of a radar, and the sand in a sandcaster used particles of the 
correct size to interact with the laser wavelength.  I thought they were 
the same process.

John T. Kwon writes:
<As for a particle beam, the amount of material is so
miniscule, and so thinly spread (the beam is probably
neutrons), that sand would be useless. These beams are also
regarded as being more effective at penetrating armor (from
the point of view of the Air Force) than a laser. Both
radiation damage and deep heating are expected to occur with
a particle beam weapon>

That makes sense. (disclaimer, I am not a physicist, nor do I play one on 
TV).  Now I wonder if an X-ray laser would functionally
equivelent to a neutral particle beam? (in game terms)

I remember that in CT that one of the subjects of Imperial Research 
Stations was suggested to be X-ray lasers.  I have read somewhere that we 
can make X-ray lasers now.  In my campaigns I told the players that they 
were restricted military technology,
with the same penalties as possessing nuclear weapons.  (you got the death 
penalty)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <20020416.165610.-108551.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Congratulations!  The award is well deserved.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"


On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 07:23:41 -0400 Jeff Zeitlin
<editor@freelancetraveller.com> writes:
> I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
> protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make 
> Freelance
> Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
> flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, 
> I
> never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to 
> be
> _recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
> 
> Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who 
> has
> allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your 
> work
> more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As 
> long as
> you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; 
> people
> like you are too valuable to lose.
> 
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
> Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller 
> Resource
> http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
> http://www.freelancetraveller.com
> http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
> editor@freelancetraveller.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

                


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:01:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:01:31 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com> <3CBC7F09.6050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CBC9112.90505@telocity.com>

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>> Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
>> skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
>> They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
>> thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
>> in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
>> living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.
>
>
>
> Eris' methods:
>
> PC's inherit fine, functioning starship. PC's overjoyed, one 
> particularly stupid one makes dumb DUMB comments about how easy it'll 
> be to compete with ship owners who have a mortgage to pay. (Gee I 
> wonder who?;-)
>
> Bad guys steal ship.
>
> Space Patroooool to the Rescuuue! <sound of inspirational music, 
> punctuated by large explosions>
>
> Space Patrol "Here. We caught the hijackers and recovered your ship. 
> Thank us!"
>
> PC's "But there are large holes in our ship where there used to be a 
> jump drive, a drive controller, and a safe in the ship's locker"
>
> SP: "Well they didn't surrender peacefully. Thank us and don't ask 
> questions."
>
> PC's notice that SP officer is wearing secret police uniform."Thank you"
>
> PC's go to bank and get large loan to get ship flying again.
>
> <scrape scrape> Hold up cardboard signs "Will carry stuff for credits" 
> just like all the other free traders...

Ah! Bruce has devined my methods...I will have to be more subtle when 
next I raid their treasury. <g>

Eris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:03:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:03:15 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <F37TW5k1Ed28kIN4MmX00001857@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.132856.6I9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
> In mail, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote
>
>>
>>Space is *big*. And they'll be visible the whole time.
>>
>>That's the problem. there's a whole lot of nothing, and even a small
>>ship stands out like a sore thumb.
>>
>
> So how does a starship of say, 400Dtons (ISTR 'Patrol Cruisers' were one 
> ship of choice for the discerning Ethically Challenged Merchant*) compare to 
> a fairly small asteroid?  Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in 
> near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near 
> misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a 
> single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?

We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.

> Is that a pirate out there, or a customs ship making sure you are behaving 
> yourself, or a sensor glitch, or an asteroid, or...

Asteroids aren't moving at hundreds of km/sec. And they aren't going to
be on intercept courses either. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:03:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:03:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20020416031009.2bda525e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20416.134013.8u0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
>> things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
>> buildings and the like.
>
> Thank you for hitting me with the "stupid" stick for the second time in
> the last days, Leonard  :-)

Not stupid. Just a bad case of "oops!".

Remember, you only embarassed yourself on the list. Think of all the
folks involved with Babylon 5 who made the ""million tons of spinning
metal" goof in the opening sequence (hint: a mass of *air* the size of
babylon 5 weighs more than a million tons :-)

And I'm rather suspicious of the masses David Weber gives for a lot of
the ships in the Honor Harrington stuff too.

Like I said, we don't have experience with this sort of thing so we
have no judgement for the numbers involved.

> I'll crawl back into my dark corner now.

Nah, if everyone who goofed did that who'd be posting? :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:04:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:04:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8e0f93f2f0d@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20416.134553.3z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>>todal forces are the same.
>
> A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the 
> size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity 
> in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal 
> gradient.

Actually, the tidal force varies *linearly* with the distance from the
center of mass of the body experiencing the tidal forces. Not *quite*
the same thing as varying with the size. 

As a good example, consider some folks in spacesuits tethered to a
ship. The forces they experience depend on the distance and direction
from the ship, not on the size of the ship.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:04:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:04:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> For Mercury (5.43), Venus (5.24) and Earth (5.52), yes.
> For Mars (3.93), any Jovian moon (some of which are considered "rocky", e.g.
> Io, at 3.53), and a few others, no.
> Personally, I'd reckon that density can vary considerably even for rocky
> worlds, say from 3.0 to nearly 7.8 (almost totally iron) or 8.5+ (almost
> totally nickel).

There are "clusters". And it's *really* unlikely that any sizable body
will have a density much above Mercury's. At least in a "normal"
system. The planets that form around supernova remnants are likely to
be very different.

>> So if there's any sort of safety factor built in to the "100 diameter"
>> rule, it'll work fine except in *really* oddball situations (say trying
>> to jump close to a *big* nickel-iron asteroid).
>
> So ... if I had a planet with an extremely large Ni-Fe core, and a higher
> mean density as a result, say towards 6.5 or 7.0, then the 100D rule would
> not be good enough. Another hazard for exploring uncharted systems, I guess.

Ain't gonna happen. The abundance of materials in the cloud of dust and
gas a system forms from means that anything with a substantial iron
core will have a lot more rocky material overlying it. 

The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.

>> The details *do* matter, because the forces at the *hull* of even a
>> small ship will *exceed* those from a planet at 100 diameters. That's a
>> *unavoidable*.
>
> Leonard, please don't emphasise words with asterisks. It just makes
> things harder to read and comes over patronising, even if that's not
> intended.

> *Try* *reading* *this* *sentence* *to* *see* *what* *I* *mean*.

I'm not going to quit indicating emphasis. And the alternatives are
asterisks or underlines and the asterisks are much easier to hit. 

Yes, it's harder to read a sentence where you individually emphasize
each word with them. But that's not what I'm doing.

As for patronizing, I'm not responsible for what you read into what I
write.

> Also, if we have to handwave away the tidal gradient due to the
> ship's hull, then I'd argue that the tidal gradient is not the
> principal factor in a misjump, no matter how well the figures fit.

Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
something that will be directly proportional to it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <OF7A3367D5.83EB7401-ON85256B9D.0057F13F@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBC9264.2050709@telocity.com>

William Lane wrote:

>OBTRAV:
>
>The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
>Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
>engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
>Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
>other.
>
>Captain asks "What are you doing?"
>
>New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
>works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
>
>Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P
>
Okay, Greg, how much you going to pay me not to pass *this* one along to 
Misha? <g>

The gang in the Reaver's Deep game just hired a Vargr engineer (played 
by Misha). Her first action aboard the ship was to hang from an overhead 
pipe with her head in the jump drive while she "checked it out."  I'll 
let Captain Jason (Greg) tell you what happened next...<g>

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
 <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416161824.01e88790@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:22 PM 4/16/2002, Texas Redshift wrote:
>At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
>Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
>judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?  Does the Imperium have a civil 
>court and what jurisdiction does it assert? Is jury trial available?  Are 
>judges elected? Appointed?

All of the following should be prefixed with the comment that I'm referring 
to My Traveller Universe, and so this may not hold for anyone else.  I 
don't know what the Canon has to say on the matter; while a lot has been 
written about the various Traveller militaries, I don't think anyone has 
ever written a supplement about lawyers and lawsuits in the Imperium.  ;-)

First of all, following a general legal principle IMTU, if the parties in 
any sort of legal action are located on the same world, then the legal 
action is resolved using that world's laws, judicial system, and 
practices.  Member worlds can basically do anything that they would like in 
this arena, subject to some basic guidelines (recognition of Imperial 
currency, validity of Imperial contracts, laws, charters, etc.) that worlds 
agree to implement as a condition of membership in the Imperium.  Outside 
of those guidelines, member worlds can (and do) have just about any sort of 
legal system, from the King's justice dispensed at sword-point to a complex 
web of liability, contract, and insurance laws that makes the 21st-century 
USA look non-litigious.

Only when the issue involves more than one world does Imperial law 
apply.  The Imperium has basic contract and liability law, written (as are 
most Imperial laws) primarily for the benefit of interstellar trade, 
commerce (and therefore primarily of benefit to business that operate on an 
interstellar scale).  IMTU, Imperial (interstellar) society is not very 
litigious - partially due to the nature of the society (which prefers an 
out-of-court settlement of some type), and partially due to the high cost 
of bringing an interstellar suit.  IMTU the Imperium has both civil and 
criminal courts, both administered by the nobility.  In general, the case 
is heard in the plaintiff's venue.

If they press onward, the case is heard by a judge (jury trials are not 
available).  In some cases, the judge is the appropriate noble in person; 
but for the most part, judges are appointed by the noble to act in his or 
her stead.  Judges serve at the noble's convenience, and can be replaced by 
him or her at any time (but usually are not, and serve until they 
retire).  Appeals are possible up the chain of fealty (all the way to the 
Emperor, at least in theory).  In the case where a judge is appointed, an 
appeal directly to the noble who appointed him or her is also possible.  In 
all cases, appeals are unlikely to succeed.  Jury trials are not available.

Most nobles tend to view cases that actually come before them with a bit of 
prejudice "which of the parties is being stubborn and unwilling to settle 
out of court?"  The reputations of the lawyers representing the parties, 
and (particularly where large corporations are involved) the reputations of 
the parties themselves often has a large influence on the outcome of the 
trial:  "Bernard Hault-Wugga?  Aren't you Baron Wishaggga's son?  OK, 
Bernie, exactly how has SuSAG wronged your client?  They did what?  Oh, of 
course; how dreadful.  MCr 3 in putative damages sounds good.  See you at 
the Solar Yacht Race next week?  Good, tell you father hello from me."  (an 
extreme example, but no doubt it happens).

For role-playing purposes, this lets the referee be as arbitrary as needed 
(and also gives the players incentive to find some other way - any other 
way - of settling differences).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:09:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:09:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018991242.5758.ajackson@ping>

Dale Gyles writes:
> Anthony Jackson writes:
> <Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would 
> work
> reasonably well against just about any weapon.>
> 
> Ok, what is the difference between sand and chaff?

The purpose of chaff is obscuring sensors.  The purpose of sand, as described
in Traveller, is stopping weapons fire.

>  I always that chaff was
>  strips of foil cut to a particular length of the
> wavelength of a radar, and the sand in a sandcaster used particles of the 
> correct size to interact with the laser wavelength.  I thought they were 
> the same process.

Well, there's a fairly significant difference, in that radar does not generally
have the power to burn through an inch of steel.
> 
> That makes sense. (disclaimer, I am not a physicist, nor do I play one on 
> TV).  Now I wonder if an X-ray laser would functionally
> equivelent to a neutral particle beam? (in game terms)

No, though a gamma ray laser would be fairly similar (somewhat different
penetration).
> 
> I remember that in CT that one of the subjects of Imperial Research 
> Stations was suggested to be X-ray lasers.  I have read somewhere that we 
> can make X-ray lasers now.  In my campaigns I told the players that they 
> were restricted military technology,
> with the same penalties as possessing nuclear weapons.  (you got the death 
> penalty)

I seem to recall something about X-ray lasers being developed, but they're not
exactly weapons-grade.  The old SDI people talked about bomb-pumped X-ray
lasers, a mechanism which AFAIK has never been successfully demonstrated, not
that this prevent people from using it in SF.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:02:50 +1000, Timothy Little
> <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:
>
>>JR Holmes wrote:
>>> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force
>>> upon itself
>>
>>You are.  This is very important in determining Roche's limit, for
>>example.
>
> I remain unconvinced in this regard.  "Roche's Limit is the distance
> from a planet inside which a satellite will be torn apart by tidal
> forces." (from http://www.cvc.org/astronomy/roche_limit.htm) or
> "Roche's Limit, which is the distance from a planet at which the
> planet's tidal force on a satellite (tending to stretch apart) is
> equal to the satellite's self-gravity (tending to hold it together)."
> (from http://utrao.as.utexas.edu/ast301/log/log22.html)
>
> As per the above, Roche's Limit is where these tidal forces (a
> tensional force) equal the compressional forces of an object's own
> gravity.  But this is in regard to the tidal forces exerted _with
> regard to another body_.  Without the other body, no tidal force.
>
> It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In another
> of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional and
> compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive me if
> I am interpreting you incorrectly).  I believe you are in error in
> this regard.  As per the above, the compressional forces are due to
> the object's self-gravity and only the tensional forces are due to the
> influence of another body and therefore are tidal forces.

No. Tidal forces are *away* from the center of the satellite along the
line joining it to the primary (ie the side closest to the primary is
pulled towards the primary, and the side opposite the primary is pulled
*away* from the primary. 

But the forces in the plane perpendicular to that line are *towards*
the center of the satellite. 

so if you were orbiting close to a neutron star in a space suit, your
feet would be pulled towards the star, your head would be pulled away
from it and your waist would be getting squeezed. 

Look at it like this. If you are orbiting, the center of your body is
moving at the right speed in the right direction. It's in freefall. 

But a point farther from the primary, if left to itself would be
traveling in a *different* orbit. With a different velocity. Ditto for
points closer to the primary, and for point "ahead" or "behind" the
center. And the same foes for point to the "left" and "right" of the
center.

The points closer to and farther from the primary would be moving *away*
from the center if they weren't attached. The ones ahead, behind and to
the sides would be moving *closer* to the center.

And that's essentially where the forces come from. Self gravity of the
body has nothing to do with it, and, in fact for a body that has to
worry about the Roche Limit, the forces *far* exceed its self gravity.

Get a copy of Dr. Robert Forward's book "Indistinguishable from Magic".
It's got a chapter on tidal forces, complete with diagrams and formulas.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <158.c6ba94a.29ede9ff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018991982.113.ajackson@ping>

CHam628781@aol.com writes:
> > Nah.  Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the
> > resources and reputation of the company.
> 
> Which is harder if you the people you are borrowing from know that you have
>  no way of spreading the risk.

Right, but the point is you don't need to have _ready_ cash.  You just need
assets which can be used to back a loan.
> 
> Fault is not always relevant from an insurance companies point of view. It 
> may be stuck with representing you whether it likes it or not.

Depends on how the insurance contract was written.

> > Many real-world large companies do exactly that.
> > 
> Not the sensible ones,

Many real-world companies are only insured for extremely large losses; you just
set the deductible high enough that it absorbs the vast majority of problems
directly.  Beyond a certain point, it's better for a company to risk going
bankrupt due to a major problem than pay out huge premiums (arguably,
bankruptcy law is itself a form of insurance).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:26:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:26:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Bruce Johnson asks
> 
>>How long did your party survive before the local residents 
>>rounded you  up and hung you?
>>
> 
> That was the problem.  They had friends.  We got back to 
> town, and they heard about it.  Later that day, when we were 
> strolling into the front foyer of the guest house were were 
> staying at, three men stepped into the room and opened up on 
> us with submachineguns.  Of the six people in our party, one 
> survived.  The three attackers died, but the locals were 
> steamed enough to shoot the survivor after hearing his tale.

I suspect the locals were *more* steamed about the firefights going on 
in public spaces. I'd wager that the 3 surviving members of that guys 
friends were fined heavily for the damage.

> It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
> principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
> friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
> received.

The real key to this is to understand what a LL0 world is like.

Probably quite polite and formal, since it's likely heavily armed...and 
the local citizenry is entirely likely to feel that maintaining public 
order is incumbent on all members of society, as well as enforcement, 
since LL0 worlds tend also to be low GOV worlds too.

A good one to spring on a bunch of unsuspecting PC's...land them 
someplace they're expecting to be Dodge City, and discover that it's 
anything but, that their 'uncivilized' behavior is quickly, but firmly 
corrected...permanently, if necessary...think a Heinleinian world of 
self-reliant, armed and polite strangers...
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBC9A4C.4000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

William Lane wrote:

> 
> Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
> everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
> info.

That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
XML to Cobol and back...

oBTRav> Captain finds engineer hip deep in the Jump drive controller 
with an exceptionally old-looking piece of hardware in his hands.

Captain: "Good lord, Scottie! That's a jump *tape* reader! What is that 
antique doing on my jump drive??"

Engineer: "Well Captain, we cannae find the right components to rrepair 
the drive controller. Urgvark" he points to a crazed looking Vargr 
assistant engineer, "...found this in a antique shop. We're tying it 
into the saircuit right now."

C: "But how will we control it? I haven't seen a jump tape in my life 
that wasn't in a museum!"

E:"Well Captain, I have a writing head from a holocorder here, we can 
connect it to the main computer, and have it translate the control 
instructions from the astrogation program to the correct patterns that a 
jump tape would have. It should work, in theory, sah. " Shouts "OK 
Urgvark! Give me some power..."

<SNAP> <Pop fsssssshhhhhh> "Turn it off! Turn it off!"

E: Through the smoke..."Ahh captain, we're going ta need some morrre 
time..."

C: weeps.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018993271.7515.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
> The real key to this is to understand what a LL0 world is like.
> 
> Probably quite polite and formal, since it's likely heavily armed...and 
> the local citizenry is entirely likely to feel that maintaining public 
> order is incumbent on all members of society, as well as enforcement, 
> since LL0 worlds tend also to be low GOV worlds too.

Well, the majority of LL0 worlds are very lightly populated as well, and quite
likely don't have much of anything recognizeable as 'public order' -- just some
isolated people.  Of course, then you have worlds like Efate.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:32 PM +1000 4/16/02, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
>(of radiation effects on fertility)
>>  Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in
>>  men, if you prefer)?
>
>Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
>the testis to ionising radiation.

Though it will need to be more pentrating since the ovaries are 
deeper in the body so it will depend on the kind of radiation? 
(Though it maybe that this is getting into to much details for rpgs 
that usualy feature "radiation").

>
>Larsen Whipsnade wrote :-
>>  GURPS, in Compendium II, handles this in the following manner.
>>  If a female has a lifetime dose of 250 rads, her offspring, and
>>  any problems they may have, are entirely at the GM's discretion.
>There probably won't be any offspring (permanent sterility in 75%).
>
>>  Realistic?  Yes.
>Nah, in GURPS it's usually an excuse for the GM to introduce Weird
>Mutant Powers (TM) <g>

I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the 
fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018978883.2225.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1018978883.2225.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330108b8e24c8654f3@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:41 AM -0700 4/16/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Texas Redshift writes:
>>  As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
>>  something:
>>
>>  At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
>>  Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
>>  judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
>
>Depends on the world.  There are canon references to 'government of men, not
>laws', which implies on the interstellar level it's not litigous per se, and
>annoying the local judge with frivolous suits is probably a poor idea.

That is consistent with a world where corporations conduct morally 
challenged acts without being continuously in court (to, at one 
extreme, being able to conduct trade wars on each other).

Also, if megacorps are as powerful as they are depicted, then should 
be able to avoid a situations where it is "easy" to sue them.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <20416.132856.6I9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.132856.6I9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330109b8e24d6388f8@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:28 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in
>  > near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near
>>  misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a
>>  single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?
>
>We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
>outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.

We are looking.  There is a program underway to catalog Earth 
crossing asteroids....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134553.3z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.134553.3z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010ab8e24dae9b06@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:45 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>>>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>>>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>>>todal forces are the same.
>>
>>  A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the
>>  size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity
>>  in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal
>>  gradient.
>
>Actually, the tidal force varies *linearly* with the distance from the
>center of mass of the body experiencing the tidal forces. Not *quite*
>the same thing as varying with the size.

The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also 
true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to 
another will depend on how far apart they are.

>
>As a good example, consider some folks in spacesuits tethered to a
>ship. The forces they experience depend on the distance and direction
>from the ship, not on the size of the ship.

True.  Though the difference in force between the guy in the space 
suit different parts of the ship will depend on the size of the ship.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <15c.be25cf3.29ede8fa@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 04:52:10PM -0400
References: <15c.be25cf3.29ede8fa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020416155914.C13552@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 04:52:10PM -0400, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> No, insurance companies tend to insure themselves against risk as well.

Yeah--from other insurance companies.  But there's no magic there: a
company as large as that collection of insurance companies can insure
itself.

And yes, if enough bad things happen at once the insurance system
would fail, just as a company would fail if it self-insured.

Generally, if you can afford it, self-insurance makes much more sense.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the people of
the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own
arms.                            --Samuel Adams, brewer and patriot

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020416081241.C25846@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.141048.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Both methane and ammonia will burn with oxygen. So you crack some water
>> (thermally or via electrolysis) and use the oxygen to burn the methane
>> and ammonia to N2, H20 & CO2. You condense the H20 and crack it to get
>> back the oxygen. The CO2 and N2 get either discrard or fed into the
>> life support system's atomosphere reprocessing section. 
>
> I don't see what I get from this.
>
> IMTU, there is only a small tank capable of holding LHyd with all the
> associated cryogenic systems, ultralow temperature pumps and such
> expensive stuff.  It primarily feeds the jump drive when entering
> jump.  The rest of the fuel space is designed to hold water which I
> can slowly refine using a fuel processor during jump.

If you are tanking from a body that has ammonia and/or methane in
addition to the water, you can shovel "ice" (or pump liquid
ammonia/methane) into a holding tank. It's not that hard to seperate
the methane, ammonia and water. And you'd need to be able to do that to
refuel from the colder iceballs anyway.

In the OTU, the tankage is for liquid hydrogen. If you are grabbing
water or whatever to "wilderness refuel" you have to extract and
liquefy the hydrogen before storing it in the tanks.

And BTW, you have to do more than just *cool* the hydrogen to get
liquid hydrogen. There are two forms of the hydrogen molecule. One has
the spins of the atoms parallel, the other has them opposing. 

One form is slightly more energetic than the other and left to itself,
will spontaneously convert to the lower energy form, releasing heat.
This takes place slowly. 

Unfortunately, it also releases enough heat to boil LH2! So you have to
use special catlysts to ensure that all the hydrogen is converted to
the low energy form before you put it in the tanks. Otherwise, the
spontaneous conversion will boil the tanks dry in a few hours. 

NASA had great fun with this problem until they found the catalysts
(fairly cheap, but they do add another step to the process of making
fuel). 

Because of this, converting water to LH2 on the fly isn't going to work
for stuff like the jump drive. You need the required fuel stored *as*
LH2 before you start.

> So the limit on how much fuel I can hold is how much oxygen is
> available to bind the hydrogen into water for my large (and cheap)
> tanks.  Discarding CO2 from burning methane is hence worse than just
> throwing away the methane.  I might extract some nitrogen from the
> ammonia to replenish any atmosphere losses, but that's about it.

No, because you aren't getting *hydrogen* when you refuel from an
iceball, just when you refuel by scooping a gas giant. And in that
case, you'll need a *lot* of oxygen, and need it fast. Check out how
much space *8* tons (mass) of liquid oxygen takes up. Because you'll
need 8 tons of oxygen for every ton of hydrogen. Remember, it takes
*nine* tons of water to produce *one* ton of hydrogen. And you'll have
to have to have *seperate* tanks for the 9 tons of water, the 8 tons of
LOX, and the 1 ton of LH2.

Storing *just* LH2 is a *lot* simpler.

When you refuel from an iceball you are getting one of the following:

Water
Water and ammonia
Water, ammonia and methane

So, as I said, you extract the oxygen from the water and store the
hydrogen.

You then use the extracted oxygen to convert the ammonia into
nitrogen and water. You keep as much of the nitrogen as you want, and
discard the rest. The water gets converted to LH2 and oxygen (ie you
*recover* the oxygen you extracted from the water you "mined").

Next, you use the oxygen (still not touching your original oxygen
supplies on board the ship) to convert the methane to CO2 and water.
The water gets processed as before, giving hydogen and oxygen.

You can either discard the CO2, *or* you can feed it thru the section
of your life support system that cracks CO2 into carbon and oxygen. And
yes, given a fusion power plant, as well as cryogenic gear, this is a
reasonable way of dealing with CO2 on board a ship. 

Matter of fact, odds are that part of the "filters" in the life support
system ammount to condensing excess water out of the air (there will
*always* be excess water as we produce it from the hydrogen in our food
and the oxygen we breathe). 

Next, the air will be flash heated (with or without a catalyst) to burn
all organic gases. Finally, a catalyst will be used to break down any
nitrogen oxides formed by the flash heating, and the O2 and N2 will be
put back in circulation, while the CO2 will be cracked into carbon and
oxygen. And actual chemical filters will deal with any remaining
contaminants (traces of stuff like chlorine & sulfur compounds, etc)

It's possible that smaller ships (and auxilluary craft) will just use
chemical filters to extract water vapor, CO2, and other contaminants).
LiOH to extract CO2, Various other things to extract water vapor, and
activated charcoal to get (most) of the other trace gases. 

But those will need changing and require "recharging" (basicly you heat
them to drive off the water/CO2/whatever).

Anyway, ships will be able to deal with converting CO2 to carbon and
oxygen. Getting rid of the carbon from processing a lot of methane will
be a major pain though. Some poor crewbeing will probably have to
either "shovel" what amounts to soot out of the gear and haul it to an
airlock to dump, or maybe (if you process stuff a bit differently) chop
slabs of graphite out of the processor. And, again dump them.

So methane would be something you might *not* want to process. But
there will be times when it's worth the hassle. 

Oh yeah, actually, the odds are you'd seperate the methane *first*,
simply because it will be the first component of the mix to turn into a
gas.

         melts   boils
         ------  ------
methane	 -182.4  -161.5
ammonia   -77.4   -33.3
water       0     100

So, as you heat the mix, first the methane liquefies, then it
vaporizes. You can discard it, or use oxygen to process it. Or, if you
do this a lit, you might have gear set up to directly crack the methane
into hydogen and carbon.

Next the ammonia liquefies and then vaporizes. And then when the water
melts, it would get dissolved in the water (great if you are
electrolyzing water, not so great otherwise). 

Again, you can either "burn" the ammonia with oxygen (I use quotes
because there are catalysts that'll make it happen at much lower temps)
or you might be equiped to "crack" it into nitrogen and hydrogen.
Cracking won't work nearly as well though, since both components are
gasses. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:08:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:08:41 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020416155310.3125.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20416.150551.5I5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> ObTrav:  There is a (Star Trek created?) stereotype of
> the engineer who can fix anything but no one can tell
> how he does it.  What other stereotypes are common in
> your games?

The "engineer as wizard" stereotype has existed *at least* as long as
widespread use of steam engines. And some would argue it goes back to
the old seige engineers of medieval and Roman times.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:09:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:09:19 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20416.150857.9F1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 02:16 PM 4/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>>
>> > In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
>> > starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
>> > stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
>>
>>Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right when the user no
>>longer understands what's going on behind the 'curtain'.
>
> Hell, for me that's today!  I can use my comp[uter, but for all I know, 
> this beige box is actually home to a tribe of magic pixes.

(uh-oh, he's beginning to catch on! :-)

> I still find it amazing and rather magical that this little bit of dreck 
> will be read by people on the other side of the planet (hi Jens and Hans!) 
> I sort of understand that it will be shuffled around by a lot of computers 
> that do that sort of thing, but beyond that?  Nothing.

It's actually *not* all that hard to understand. Really. But it
involves paying more attention to *details* than most folks care to. 

> "Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
>   with sex." - Fry, Futurama

Hmm. Must be looking at the wrong sites. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <OF7A3367D5.83EB7401-ON85256B9D.0057F13F@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <20416.151127.3N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> OBTRAV:
>
> The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
> Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
> engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
> Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
> other.
>
> Captain asks "What are you doing?"
>
> New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
> works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
>
> Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P

An *intelligent* captain will just chalk it up to "personal quirks" as
long as the job gets done. And if things seem to be working better than
he'd expect, he may wind up asking the engineer for more info about
Jabobo. <g>

If it works, don't knock it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com> <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net> <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020417081359.A28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> "Roche's Limit, which is the distance from a planet at which the
> planet's tidal force on a satellite (tending to stretch apart) is
> equal to the satellite's self-gravity (tending to hold it together)."
> (from http://utrao.as.utexas.edu/ast301/log/log22.html)

Anaother way to say the same thing is "where the net tidal gradient
becomes tensional in at least one direction".  Self-gravity *is* a
tidal force.


> As per the above, Roche's Limit is where these tidal forces (a
> tensional force) equal the compressional forces of an object's own
> gravity.

The compressional forces of an object's own gravity *are* tidal
gradients.  Roche's limit is where the sum of the external and
internal tides cancel (in one direction) for a body of given
composition.


> It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In
> another of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional
> and compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive
> me if I am interpreting you incorrectly).

Yes.  Consider a near-massless spaceship somewhere near the Earth,
with bow pointing directly outward from it.  A point on the bow is a
bit further from the Earth than the center, so the gravitational
attraction toward Earth's center is weaker.  Likewise, the
gravitational attraction is stronger at the stern.  This is the
tensional aspect of the tidal gradient.

Now consider points on the port and starboard.  Both feel the same
magnitude of gravitational acceleration, but the *direction* is
different.  The vector difference between the two results in an inward
(compressional) force.  Likewise for the "top" and "bottom" of the
ship.

So the external tides exert a compression force as well as a tensional
one.


Now consider a spacecraft with significant density.  In this case, the
same argument applies to give a tensional gradient (due to the Earth),
but now you have to add the self-gravity.  The bow experiences a weak
Earthward acceleration due to self-gravity, and the stern experiences
an outward force.  This sums with the Earth's tidal force to give a
result that could be either tensional or compressional, depending on
how close to Earth the starship is and on what it's density is.
(Compressional far from the Earth, possibly tensional closer in).

The top and bottom of the ship are subject to a sum of compressional
forces alone.


The actual mathematics is much simpler in many regards than the
example, but the result is the same.  The tidal gradient at any given
point is expressed as a matrix, with trace equal to the density at the
point in question.  The eigenvalues and eigenvectors of the matrix
tell you the magnitude and directions of the forces due to the
gradient.  Even a pebble in otherwise completely empty space has tidal
gradients inside and out, and those gradients are not appreciably
weaker than the tidal gradients around and within the Moon.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020417082001.B28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.

Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
a nitpick.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3cbf94aa.16351970@post.demon.co.uk>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

>That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
>wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
>convincing opposing argument:-)

What if you're charged by n+1 people with pointy sticks, where n is
the number of bullets you're carrying?

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:34:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3CBC7D4F.7020102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200204161741.EEV03115@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416183650.00b8f070@urbin.net>

At 12:36 PM 4/16/02 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>John T. Kwon wrote:
>>I got out of the car with the others, and asked the other driver if he 
>>had insurance.  He said, "No."  So I said to my friends, "I think we 
>>should wait for the police."  They laughed and said, "Hey stupid, there 
>>are no police."
>>So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the occupants of the 
>>other car without warning.  Then we went through their pockets for loose 
>>change.
>How long did your party survive before the local residents rounded you up 
>and hung you?

That's why he should have checked for witnesses first.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:35:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:35:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>

Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:

>>Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =3D20
>
>Shouldnt the hull code be Z? I though Y was for 1,000,000 to=20
>1,999,999. Z was for anything above that.=20

Y is for 1,000,000 to "the next stated level" - but there isn't one,
so I'm assuming it's just "over a million tons".  Z is "Reserved".

>>MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
>Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
>Architects fees? Anyone?

Standard cost.  If you *really* want to start mass-producing these
things, you scare me ;-)

I didn't include the architect's fees, but they'd be TCr 376,770.  The
kind of contract every naval architect dreams of.

Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:39:03 2002
Subject: Engineer Voodoo (was: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?)
References: <20416.151127.3N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CBCA7CB.11BDF34@premier.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > OBTRAV:
> >
> > The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
> > Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
> > engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
> > Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
> > other.
> >
> > Captain asks "What are you doing?"
> >
> > New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
> > works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
> >
> > Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P
> 
> An *intelligent* captain will just chalk it up to "personal quirks" as
> long as the job gets done. And if things seem to be working better than
> he'd expect, he may wind up asking the engineer for more info about
> Jabobo. <g>

Actually, given that "Voodoo is an animist faith. That is, objects and
natural phenomena are believed to possess holy significance, to possess
a soul [*]," this seems a not-unreasonable belief system for an engineer
to have, assuming that additional syncretism has added technology to the
Voodoo gumbo.

Imagine if the engineer's version of Voodoo included the Evangelicals'
drive to proselytize:

"Have you accepted Jabobo as your personal Loa?" ;-)

[*] Quoted from the following Web site:

http://www.swagga.com/voodoo.htm

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3cbf94aa.16351970@post.demon.co.uk>; from tml@stempest.demon.co.uk on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:20:42PM +0000
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net> <3cbf94aa.16351970@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020416164940.A14019@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:20:42PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> 
> >That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
> >wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
> >convincing opposing argument:-)
> 
> What if you're charged by n+1 people with pointy sticks, where n is
> the number of bullets you're carrying?

That's why the steel.  And if the number of people involved >> n/2,
then I'm probably going to be running anyway:-)

Of course, all this is silly because I've never been attacked and
don't typically engage in activities which increase my risk of being
attacked.  I'm a rather quiet sort.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20416.141048.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020416081241.C25846@freeman.little-possums.net> <20416.141048.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> And BTW, you have to do more than just *cool* the hydrogen to get
> liquid hydrogen. There are two forms of the hydrogen molecule. One has
> the spins of the atoms parallel, the other has them opposing. 

I'm quite aware of that.  I'm also aware of various maethods for
dealing with it at *our* tech level, let alone TL10.


> Because of this, converting water to LH2 on the fly isn't going to
> work for stuff like the jump drive.

That's why I said that there is an auxiliary fuel tank for the jump
drive.  Besides, does it say anywhere that the jump drive actually
needs *liquid* hydrogen, or is that just how it is stored prior to
use?

IMTU, it needs pure hydrogen.  The physical form is preferably ionised
at a temperature of a few hundred thousand degrees, but it needs a
*lot*, *fast*.  It's a bit hard to store tonnes of 100+ kK plasma for
any length of time, and LH2 is a nice compact way to hold pure
hydrogen ready for injection.


> You need the required fuel stored *as* LH2 before you start.

Even if this was true, that's exactly what the canonical "fuel
processor" does.  It converts impure hydrogen and hydrogen compounds
(such as water) into LH2.  It even gives a rate at which it produces
the stuff.  Do you exclude fuel processors from your Traveller
universe?  That's what it sounds like.


> Check out how much space *8* tons (mass) of liquid oxygen takes up.

I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?

When I scoop ice from an iceball, I get lots of hydrogen in the form
of water.  Water is a more compact way to store hydrogen than LH2.  So
I *keep* the water.  I run the ammonia, methane, or some more water
through the fuel processor to fill up the smaller LH2 tanks (possibly
extracting some nitrogen for life support), throw away all the
methane, and either keep or throw away the ammonia.


> And you'll have to have to have *seperate* tanks for the 9 tons of
> water, the 8 tons of LOX, and the 1 ton of LH2.

No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.

The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.


> Oh yeah, actually, the odds are you'd seperate the methane *first*,
> simply because it will be the first component of the mix to turn
> into a gas.

Yep, mainly so I can get rid of it before putting it in the tanks at
all.  Ammonia I can deal with later, since I don't need highly
expensive long-term cryogenic tanks to hold ammonia solution.  I can
separate it later if I want.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Refining Fuel
Message-ID: <200204162252.EFF02983@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ok, so can I put solid rock in the refiner?

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%
7B1F54AEED-A34B-411B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com> <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020417085805.D28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Of course :)

It varies with which rules, time period, and dataset you use, but my
figures are on the order of 100 PCr/year.  Never seen a 'P' prefix
used before?  10^15, in case anyone was wondering ;)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:59:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:59:38 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020416190105.CB76627A2E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020416155253.00a4d980@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:38:41 -0400, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

>Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from
>the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
>again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up
>during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and
>said, "Behold, Our God!".

"Glory be to the Bomb, and to the Holy Fallout, as it was in the Beginning."

Put me down as another half-kill.  (I rarely drink at the keyboard.  Not 
while reading THIS list, anyway.)

It's sure nice to find out what sort of people were guarding our nuclear 
deterrent, back in the bad old days.



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:01:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:01:09 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/16/02 3:50 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
> over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
> LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
> unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
> paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.
> 
> The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
> volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
> water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
> upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.
> 

Just curious, but what about storing H2 as hydrides?  Don't you get a higher
density?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:06:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:06:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Damn mind rapers
Message-ID: <20020416230522.61559.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

<Arlin J. Schofield- OC>
P2GM - Hey John, what is the general level of public
acceptance of psi's. I'm sure the military characters
who have been in action against the zho's (like Arlin)
wont be to comfartable with a psi around. I think
unless the public don't mind psi's that those
discussing them should at least try to be quiet ;)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <200204161837.EEX02352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.155109.2O0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The spot size for the projected SBL is around a foot in 
> diameter. The US Air Force is assuming that missiles will be 
> painted or coated to optimize reflectivity, and they also 
> anticipate that the missiles will spin to reduce the 
> effectiveness of the laser.  "Sand" or some sort of 
> particulate matter that interferes with the operation of the 
> beam, would have to be held in close proximity to the ship.  
> The beam has such a small spot size, that to effectively 
> maintain a density of sand which would reduce the 
> effectiveness of the beam means that you cannot allow it to 
> disperse.  There are also plasmas that can be formed that 
> might increase the reflectivity of the ship itself at the 
> expense of increasing the ship''s signature.

Check for old discussions of how sand probably works.

A summary is:

the particles are spheres, and highly refactive at laser wavelengths.
Thus a portion of the beam will be refelected back at the source
(helping to blind sensors) before absorbed beam energy can disrupt the
particle. And the portion of the energy that is transmitted is
defocused. 

The particles take a fair amount of energy to melt. While molten they
continue to retro-reflect part of the beam and disperse the rest.

They take even more energy to vaporize and form a plasma easily. The
plasma is opaque to laser energy and absorbs even *more* of the beam
energy.

So yet get some sensor blinding for free, and the plasma generation
makes the required sand density much lower than would otherwise be
required. 

This would also make for nice visual effects as beams hit clouds of sand.

> The main way that the SBL intends to defeat reflective 
> coatings, spinning, heavier construction, ablative coatings, 
> and other countermeasures is to scale up the power.  In the 
> case of missiles, they give good arguments as to why the 
> countermeasures are, within an ability to hold the beam on 
> target for four seconds, ineffective.  That is, with current 
> tech, the coatings and spinning are already factored into the 
> laser's design.  

Well, in space, outside of low orbit, stuff like sand and "smoke" tend
to be rather more effective, because they don't get left behind. 

They don't make it impossible to zap the target, just harder.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:08:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:08:35 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20416.152426.1u5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:36:12AM +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
>> 
>> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
>> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
>> to see is a cloud of dust ;)
>
> Unless he's the faster...
>
> That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
> wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
> convincing opposing argument:-)

Perhaps you've heard the story about two hikers confronted by a bear.
One starts running and the oother follows. The second gasps why "why
are you running, the bear can outrun us"

The first replies "I don't need to outriun *him*. Just *you*!"

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:09:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:09:14 2002
Subject: [TML] CT/Book 5 question
In-Reply-To: <200204160206.EDP04153@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.152658.1R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> OK.  Actually a Book 5 question.  Ship has partial 
> streamlining. Under the rules, it can do gas giant 
> refueling.  If it can move through an upper atmosphere like 
> that (presumably at some velocity - after all, we don't want 
> to spiral in), can you land such a ship on a world with a 
> standard atmosphere?

As I recall, partial streamlining does allow landing on such a world.

> How does an air/raft do it?  1-G acceleration.  You're riding 
> in a vehicle about the size of a HMMWV with the top down.

> Feel that wind in your hair...

Not necessarily. It can simply climb vertically (and slowly) until it
is out of the atmosphere. Then it can accerlerate until it reaches
orbital *velocity. 

Remember, it's *much* easier to reach orbital *altitude* than orbital
velocity. That's the principle behind several weapons for taking out
low altitude satellites. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:09:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:09:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.153558.2c9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
> something:
>
> At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
> Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
> judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
>
> Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
> Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?
>
> What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?

I don't think canon covers it. But given some of the things that canon
sources have going on, I suspect that "frivilous" lawsuits are
discouraged in some manner. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:11:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:11:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417085805.D28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018998647.1051.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?
> 
> Of course :)
> 
> It varies with which rules, time period, and dataset you use, but my
> figures are on the order of 100 PCr/year.  Never seen a 'P' prefix
> used before?  10^15, in case anyone was wondering ;)

Hm...my figure seems to be at 103PCr/year, which is well within the margin of
error.  Of course, there's a fairly significant problem with the old Atlas of
the Imperium data -- there's only around 9,000 imperial worlds, not the 11,000
there's supposed to be.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018998784.5627.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
> over

Which is, based on the existence of drop tanks, equal to the total fuel
requirement of jump.  Water tanks are mostly useful for jumping _twice_.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:14:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:14:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Indistinguishable from Magic
In-Reply-To: <20020416190105.CB76627A2E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020416160033.00a50b10@mailhost.efn.org>

(was: How many credits is that?)

For a while now, I've taken Clarke's Law to apply all the way back to the 
first simple machines.  To someone who's never seen one before, even a 
lever is magical:  you push DOWN, and a much heavier thing on the other end 
goes UP, easily.  Thus, any technology that exceeds the capabilities of the 
unaided human body (strength, sight, speed, etc) is "magic."

It can even be argued that knowing (or thinking one knows) how something 
works does not make it less magic.  Surely the hypothetical medieval wizard 
would know as much about the alchemical and astrological correspondences, 
sacred geometry, the names of angels, and other important data about his 
profession as a telecom engineer does about phones and networks and 
switches.  And each would be equally convinced the other was practicing 
black witchcraft.

And I note that people still leave out tributes to faeries - only now they 
call them gremlins or Greys, to name but two of the new forms.

--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:16:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:16:55 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020416231354.82331.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's
going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

What, because you have dust in your veins instead of
blood?  ;-)
END QUOTE

No, because I am a vampire from buffy:the vampire
slayer ;P

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020416231641.82811.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Unless he's the faster...

That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy
stick all he wants.  But my lead and steel can, I
feel, come up with quite a convincing opposing
argument:-)
END QUOTE

Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
pointy stick :)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:18:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:18:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204150043.RAA22864@molly.iii.com> from "Anthony Jackson" at Apr 14, 2002 05:43:03 PM
Message-ID: <200204162126.g3GLQsn00991@localhost.uia.net>

> Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
> network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
> just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.
> 
> In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
> a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
> wormholes have to share a reference frame.

I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20416.155109.2O0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018999846.3010.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
> 
> The particles take a fair amount of energy to melt. While molten they
> continue to retro-reflect part of the beam and disperse the rest.
> 
> They take even more energy to vaporize and form a plasma easily. The
> plasma is opaque to laser energy and absorbs even *more* of the beam
> energy.

Now, let's consider a typical example: a typical TTL13 X-ray laser.  It focuses
to a beam 1 cm wide, with an unclear duration; we'll assume 100 milliseconds,
as that will avoid significant problems with the beam impact point moving.  The
total beam energy is on the order of 400 megajoules, and has a damage value
(T4) of 50.

The target is a 200 dton sphere, with a cross-section of 240 square meters. 
One can at AV 50 is 320 kilograms.  Since the beam has a cross-section of
0.0001 m^2, it actually strikes 0.13 grams of sand.

As it happens, X-rays can go through that much material without even worrying
about getting it out of the way.  Ignoring that, if we assume the 'sand' is
synthetic diamond, it has a heat of vaporization of 8 kilojoules.  Further
ignoring the fact that X-rays don't generally reflect very well, through a
variety of tricks we'll argue that the actual energy of vaporization is 1
megajoule (125x greater).

399 megajoules to go.  Well, perhaps the vapor is opaque.  Let's add another
megajoule to the vapor, heating it up to some obscene temperature, and assume
that 90% of the absorbed energy is lost to immediate reradiation.  The
remaining 100 kilojoules causes the gas in the path of the laser to explode
outwards, with an average velocity of 39 kilometers per second.  1 microsecond
later, the plasma has had its density drop by a factor of around 10, which
should allow the X-rays to shine through.  Since the power output is 4
megajoules per microsecond, the total energy absorbed by the sand is maybe 5
megajoules.  Gee, only another 80x increase in efficiency and we'll actually
stop the beam.

> Well, in space, outside of low orbit, stuff like sand and "smoke" tend
> to be rather more effective, because they don't get left behind. 

Well, if you don't use any thrust and use gravetics to prevent the stuff from
wandering, sure.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204162126.g3GLQsn00991@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019000154.7419.ajackson@ping>

jimv writes:

> I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim

All methods of using FTL to accomplish time travel rely on the fact that for
any form of FTL movement, there exists a reference frame where in some
direction or another, the FTL movement appears to be going backwards in time. 
Therefore, you move, shift velocity to a different reference frame, and then
reverse the trip.  The trip took positive time according to the ship's onboard
time, but negative time according to an outside observer.

If you require that all FTL movement occur within a single reference frame, you
can't change reference frames to make the round trip, and total trip time
always remains positive, though different reference frames will disagree as to
how the time requirement was divided up, and may claim that certain sections of
the trip took negative amounts of time.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damn mind rapers
Message-ID: <200204162344.EFH02038@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Psis are a military and internal security necessity.  I think 
that the whole B5 attitude towards them was pretty good.  
IBIS makes covert use of them.  The military intel people 
make use of them.  For some reason Vilani and Solomani aren't 
any good at PK or teleportation. That's something the Zhodani 
are good at.  Of course, it's not secret in the Zhodani 
Consulate - it's a way of life.

People do tend to dislike them, but that's the popular view.  
Many corporations use telepaths to verify truth and intent 
when signing major contracts.

Then again, they aren't common.  IBIS has a special division 
that trains them.  Rumor has it that they *are* the Psionics 
Institute.  One more reason that people don't trust the 
trained ones.  Untrained, well, some people can't help the 
way they were born.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
Message-ID: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see 
<http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file 
their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).

Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and 
although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the 
end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned 
for a financial year until after you've earned it.

Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
timetable works??

[ BTW, I'm only asking for a quick reply to a query. Anything further 
(anti-IRS rants, full 20-page technical descriptions of the US economy, 
etc etc) probably should go to the discussion list.  %^P  ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <3CBD64AF.31847.709971@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 20:32, Robert O'Connor wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
> (of radiation effects on fertility)
> > Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
> > men, if you prefer)?
> 
> Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
> the testis to ionising radiation.

How penetrating is ionising radiation in general? If it's not very 
penetrating there should be some adjustment made to allow for the 
ovaries being protected by being inside, rather than outside the torso.
 

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:04:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:04:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20416.134013.8u0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020416031009.2bda525e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CBD64AF.11090.709A27@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 13:40, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> And I'm rather suspicious of the masses David Weber gives for a lot of
> the ships in the Honor Harrington stuff too.

I'm rather suspicious of a lot of things in those books. As for the 
mass, I think he used a square when he should have used a cube law.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:05:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:05:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
In-Reply-To: <OFF290291A.CB37BC25-ONCA256B9D.0017EFD0@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3CBD64AF.28128.7098A2@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 16:17, david.d.jaques-watson@centrel wrote:

> You are not mistaken. It's mentioned in Striker Book 2, part of the 
> "Integrating with Traveller" section.
> 
> My bet is that it goes back to "Starship Troopers".

I'm fairly sure it doesn't, because in ST the navy didn't seem to 
provide fire support, just softening bombardments with nukes.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:06:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:06:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
References: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>


david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> 
> Dear Folks -
> 
> In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see
> <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file
> their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
> 
> Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and
> although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the
> end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned
> for a financial year until after you've earned it.
> 
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's
> timetable works??

Earnings are based on calendar year (1 Jan - 31 Dec).  We receive an
official statement from our employers ("W-2" form) of our earnings,
taxable earnings (not always the same) and taxes withheld no later than
31 Jan of the next year.  We then have until 15 April to file our tax
paperwork (Form 1040, in one of several variations) and pay any tax due.

For further information, check:

http://www.irs.gov

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <3CBD66E0.27266.792890@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 13:49, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
> of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
> something that will be directly proportional to it.

It's simple - the apparent size of the world is what matters. You see 
the jump drives get frightened if they see large opjects in the shy, 
and they don't work well under stress.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:14:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:14:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
References: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au> <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CBCBDFA.1AA77C4E@premier.net>

John Groth wrote:

<<snip>>
> 
> Earnings are based on calendar year (1 Jan - 31 Dec).  We receive an
> official statement from our employers ("W-2" form) of our earnings,
> taxable earnings (not always the same) and taxes withheld no later than
> 31 Jan of the next year.

Just to clarify:

Earnings are based on calendar year (01 Jan X0 - 31 Dec X0), and the W-2
form should be received no later than 31 Jan X1.

Why US income taxes are based on calendar years, while the Federal
government's fiscal years run from 01 Oct X0 - 30 Sep X1 (said year
being referred to as Fiscal Year X1) is beyond me.

Note also that different states may have income tax filing dates that
differ from that of the Federal government....

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:21:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:21:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi,

> There are "clusters". And it's *really* unlikely that any sizable body
> will have a density much above Mercury's. At least in a "normal"
> system. The planets that form around supernova remnants are likely to
> be very different.

Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

Besides, what's "normal" ? Our solar system could be the odd one out, for
all we know. Until we survey a few others, I'd say it was not a good idea to
make assumptions concerning the frequency of systems like ours. Consider the
size of our moon to the Earth, for example. If it hadn't have been for a
body the size of Mars hitting the just-born Earth, the Earth would have been
larger and the moon non-existent, with dramatic effects on evolution and
culture thereafter. The chances of that collision happening may have been
vanishingly small, making the Earth Moon system unique.

Finally, all non-jovian planets form from Supernova remnants. That's what
(a) manufactures the heavier elements in the first place, and (b) creates a
large cloud of particulate and gas that condenses to form a new star. The
presence of anything above the lighter elements in the solar system implies
that the Sun and its family owe their existence to the previous catastrophic
death of a long dead star.

If you are referring to oddities like pulsar planets here, then I'd agree
they would probably be denser if they formed from debris. But then, its more
likely that a pulsar has captured a body ejected from another system, as
supernovas tend to clear the area near the site of the explosion and drive
all the suitable accretion material well away from the pulsar itself. That
Hubble image of the 1987A (?, can't remember the designation now) supernova
remnant shows this in practice - a huge shockwave travelling at relativistic
velocities away from the pulsar corem driving superheated gas and
particulate with it.

> Ain't gonna happen. The abundance of materials in the cloud of dust and
> gas a system forms from means that anything with a substantial iron
> core will have a lot more rocky material overlying it.

Just because it's less likely doesn't mean it won't happen. A few years ago,
superjovians in the inner system were thought impossible, and then guess
what they found ?

Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
come up eventually.

> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.

Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

> I'm not going to quit indicating emphasis. And the alternatives are
> asterisks or underlines and the asterisks are much easier to hit.

Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
all.

> Yes, it's harder to read a sentence where you individually emphasize
> each word with them. But that's not what I'm doing.

No, but it made the point - the *'s draw your eyes to particular key words
and make the sentence harder to read.

> As for patronizing, I'm not responsible for what you read into what I
> write.

Hah ! Have you ever thought of a career in politics ? :-)

Seriously, if you decide to emphasize particular words, then you are
attempting to enforce those words and colour the interpretation of the
sentence, which is what emphasis is all about anyway. Take the sentence
above, "it's *really* unlikely" - there was no need to emphasize the word
"really" here at all. The wording was more than sufficient. All you achieved
was to add a dismissive/patronising tone, as if to say "it's so unlikely
that it's not even worth considering, so I am not going to".

> Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
> of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
> something that will be directly proportional to it.

Why does it have to vary with the inverse cube of the distance ? That
automatically makes the assumption that I argued against, which is "just
because the figures fit it must be right". I'd agree that the tidal figures
being identical for a given density across all world sizes seems convincing,
until you remember that densities are not going to be uniform at all. Then
the "figures matching" evidence breaks down (IIRC, Larger rocky/terrestrial
worlds are likely to have a higher density, as their proto-cores must have
been more massive during accretion to gain the additonal mass in the first
place - therefore as you go from UWP Size 1 to A, the density is likely to
increase, and the tidal force likewise).

Might it not make more sense to say that 100 diameters was a simplification
for the game, and an arbitrary value, rather than cook the Physics books to
justify it ? If you are going to make a "realistic-feel" limit for Jump
Drives, it would make more sense to define it in terms of the gravitational
field strength and forget the diameters thing entirely, except maybe as a
passing comment such as "for Earth this occurs at 100 planetary diameters".

Regards

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <B8E20E0C.3AB65%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/16/02 4:56 PM, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au at
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

> Dear Folks -
> 
> In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see
> <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file
> their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
> 
> Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and
> although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the
> end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned
> for a financial year until after you've earned it.
> 
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's
> timetable works??

Tax year runs January 1 through December 31, with filing not later than
April 15 the following year unless and extension is granted.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416183650.00b8f070@urbin.net>
References: <3CBC7D4F.7020102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CBD6995.16638.83BD87@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 18:37, Mark Urbin wrote:

> >How long did your party survive before the local residents rounded you up 
> >and hung you?
> 
> That's why he should have checked for witnesses first.

Yep. Witnesses are easier to deal with if you can shoot them before 
they know what's going on.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Damn mind rapers
Message-ID: <20020417003134.71770.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

My apoligise to the TML for that PBEM post, in future
must check address before posting. Agian my apoligies.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEDLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> >
> > Dear Folks -
> >
> > In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see
> > <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens
> have to file
> > their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
> >
> > Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and
> > although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the
> > end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned
> > for a financial year until after you've earned it.
> >
> > Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's
> > timetable works??
>
> Earnings are based on calendar year (1 Jan - 31 Dec).  We receive an
> official statement from our employers ("W-2" form) of our earnings,
> taxable earnings (not always the same) and taxes withheld no later than
> 31 Jan of the next year.  We then have until 15 April to file our tax
> paperwork (Form 1040, in one of several variations) and pay any tax due.
>
> For further information, check:
>
> http://www.irs.gov

Well, that sounds all nice and simple.

Over here in blighty, our tax year runs 5th April - 5th April, and the tax
calculations are arcane mysteries. A plethora of forms (P14, P35, P60, et
al) exist for the end of year.

And then, your accountant miscalculates and you end up 465.40 adrift
because he went to a calculator feeding frenzy and slipped on the keys. Such
is life.

ObTrav: What about tax returns in the Imperium ? In particular, what about
tax returns for expatriot traders and the like - do they pay tax where their
ship is registered, or pro rata per world they stay on, or what ?

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
Message-ID: <F195IuSRhAssGzeKkWG0000635c@hotmail.com>

>>And I'm rather suspicious of the masses David Weber gives for a lot of
>>the ships in the Honor Harrington stuff too.
>
>I'm rather suspicious of a lot of things in those books. As for the
>mass, I think he used a square when he should have used a cube law.
>
If the ships have any significant armour then he should have used both 
(square for armour and cube for more or less everything else) assuming he 
didn't set a fixed ratio between volume and armour mass. There should also 
be a constant term and some terms with fractional powers but they might be 
small enough to ignore. It's probably easier and more accurate to build the 
ships FFS/Vehicles style.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <20020416221005.288A827A31@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00c001c1e5aa$dad24960$50b18b90@computer>

> From: Derek Wildstar
> while a lot has been written about the various Traveller militaries, I
> don't think anyone has ever written a supplement about lawyers and
> lawsuits in the Imperium.  ;-)

Hmm....  No, I think you are right - we don't know much about lawyers in the
OTU.

We do, however, know that all accountants have cutlass skill, that all
philosophers wear black berets, and that it is not wise to assume that
everyone who wears a black beret is necessarily a philosopher.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <20020416154004.A42C527A0E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00bd01c1e5aa$d8c25520$50b18b90@computer>

From: James Ramsay
> Oh and a funny thing here in Australia, three of our sailors where
> arrested for damaging earth moving equipment! And these people are
> protecting our waters?

Well of course they damaged it!  They thought earth was just like water.

Or do you mean they were in _possession_ of damaging earth moving equipment?
I would have thought that was the point of the navy - damaging things and
moving earth around.

Maybe they were trying to use the earth moving equipment to protect our
waters by burying them?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com










From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <00bf01c1e5aa$da2a70a0$50b18b90@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon"
> So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the occupants of the
> other car without warning.  Then we went through their pockets for loose
> change.

Wow.  What an incredibly bad idea...  I don't think I've met a single ref
who would have let you get away with that. About the only way you could have
would be if the ref didn't want to have to waste time while you rolled up
new characters.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:56:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:56:30 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <00bc01c1e5aa$d823a420$50b18b90@computer>

From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> That's the sort of magical transformation that all those alchemists dreamt
> about! (Actually, they would have been happy with just a lump of gold, but
> you get my drift... ;-).

Strictly speaking, the goals of alchemy were religious/spiritual.  The
"turning lead to gold" thing was a metaphor.

Of course, there might have been some alchemists that didn't understand
that.  There certainly were a bunch of non-alchemists that didn't, and
handed over plenty of gold to alchemists for the latter to turn to lead for
them.

I've always found it interesting that people like Newton and Boyle were
alchemists.  After all, alchemists were basically wizards.  This raises some
wonderful possibilities.  The British government basically legalised a coven
of witches.  What deals were made to accomplish this?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:57:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:57:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170054.EFJ05650@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

A Los Alamos report

LA-3126-MS           
Pion-nucleon elastic scattering experiments with
high intensity meson beams

How do I get a copy?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:57:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:57:48 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416190104.2243227A2D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00be01c1e5aa$d9841e80$50b18b90@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon" 
> Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from 
> the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
> again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up 
> during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and 
> said, "Behold, Our God!".

Yeah, well, you can rack up another keyboard kill for this...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:59:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:59:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <20020416221005.288A827A31@mail.travellercentral.com> <00c001c1e5aa$dad24960$50b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3CBCC836.201FC590@premier.net>


Alan Bradley wrote:
> 
> > From: Derek Wildstar
> > while a lot has been written about the various Traveller militaries, I
> > don't think anyone has ever written a supplement about lawyers and
> > lawsuits in the Imperium.  ;-)
> 
> Hmm....  No, I think you are right - we don't know much about lawyers in the
> OTU.
> 
> We do, however, know that all accountants have cutlass skill, that all
> philosophers wear black berets, and that it is not wise to assume that
> everyone who wears a black beret is necessarily a philosopher.

I've also mentioned that AuricTech Shipyards (quasi-canon, as the firm
is described in _101 Corporations_) has a contingent of "suits": lawyers
in battledress. ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204170054.EFJ05650@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019005361.2749.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> A Los Alamos report
> 
> LA-3126-MS           
> Pion-nucleon elastic scattering experiments with
> high intensity meson beams
> 
> How do I get a copy?

Somehow, I suspect it would be either incomprehensible or horribly boring even
if you requested it.  In any case, these aren't traveller mesons, since they
seem to actually interact with matter, as opposed to mystically passing through
it without interaction ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LAMPF - a meson facility!
Message-ID: <200204170105.EFJ07268@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Evidently home to the world's most powerful proton 
accelerator (800 MeV).  There's an article about how they 
have to treat items that were in the "hot cell" which 
were "target processed".  These items are apparently 
radioactive after the beam hits them (whether the beam is a 
proton beam or neutron beam).

They can also produce a beam of high energy neutrons by 
striking a tantalum screen with the proton beam.

ObTrav:  After your ship is hit by a meson weapon, assuming 
you're still alive, is the ship a radioactive wreck?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020417011017.28326.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Or do you mean they were in _possession_ of damaging
earth moving equipment? I would have thought that was
the point of the navy - damaging things and moving
earth around.
END QUOTE

Now they damaged some earth moving equipment. However
it was civilian earth moving equipment! Ive said it
before and I will say it agin I am sooooo glad
Australia doesn't have nukes!

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #413 - 48 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020417010107.F3AC9279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020417010107.F3AC9279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <mripbu88p8l3cb85uuh4h4600e5ob0gkac@4ax.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 17:59:21 -0700, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
wrote:

>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:56:56 +1000
>Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>Dear Folks -

>In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see 
><http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file 
>their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).

>Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and 
>although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the 
>end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned 
>for a financial year until after you've earned it.

>Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
>timetable works??

Unless your company specifically indicates otherwise, fiscal years for IRS
purposes are 01/01 to 31/12.  Filing deadline is 15/4 for the prior tax
year.  You can apply for an extension until 15/8, but if you have a tax
liability (i.e., you need to pay rather than receiving a refund) you must
pay by 15/4.


--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net> <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020417114559.A29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Just curious, but what about storing H2 as hydrides?  Don't you get
> a higher density?

Not really.  Hydrides are a form of hydrogen storage with the
advantages of requiring little energy to extract and of being
relatively safe, cheap and reusable.  The best quoted hydride storage
I found on the Web had a hydrogen storage capacity of 95 kg/m^3 at
pressures near 1 atm (assuming bulk solid, which it wouldn't be).
That's better than liquid hydrogen, but lower than water.

Once you have hydrogen-driven fusion power, the energy cost to extract
hydrogen from water becomes pretty much irrelevant.  The expense of
even the cheapest metal hydride storage grossly exceeds that of water
tanks, as well as being a lot heavier.


- Tim




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018998784.5627.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1018998784.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020417114826.B29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
[ Jump fuel requirements ]
> Which is, based on the existence of drop tanks, equal to the total
> fuel requirement of jump.

Please, let's not start the drop-tank "Canon says this!  No, that's
contradicted by *that*" flamewar again.  I did very carefully specify
the requirements applied to My Traveller universe for a reason.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:49:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:49:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170147.EFL02200@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>In any case, these aren't traveller mesons, since=
 they
>seem to actually interact with matter, as opposed to =

>mystically passing through it without interaction ;)

There seems to =
be a major misconception about meson beams in =

Traveller. I still remember reading the original JTAS article.

A semi=
stable meson produced either in a neutral =

form with a mass 264 times that of an electron =

and a mean lifetime of 8.4 =D7 10^17 seconds =

or in a positively or negatively charged form =

with a mass 273 times that of an electron and a =

mean lifetime of 2.6 =D7 10^8 seconds. =

Also called pi meson.

The neutral pion decays in about 10^15 sec, =

usually into a pair of photons but occasionally =

into a positron-electron pair and a photon. Gamma ray photons.

The Tr=
aveller meson was described in an old JTAS
article.  It is a pi neutral=
 meson.  It has no
magical non-interaction properties - it is merely
v=
ery highly penetrating, as cosmic rays (which are
relativistic pi meson=
s) are.  The reason that cosmic =

rays don't make it to the ground is that they decay
before they get low=
er (the atmosphere does slow them
down).  A ship targeted by a relativi=
stic beam tuned
to precipitate the decay of all of its pions a short
d=
istance into the target is a meson gun.

There were experimental radia=
tion treatment machines
designed on this principle, to put radiation in=
to =

specific areas of a patient.

The LAMPF facility at Los Alamos is the =
most powerful
meson accelerator in the world, at 800 Mev.  It was
orig=
inally built in 1968, and has been upgraded over
time.

The Los Alamo=
s National Laboratory proposes =

to construct a scientifically broadly based =

facility using the existing Los Alamos Meson =

Physics Facility (LAMPF) accelerator as =

its injector. Both the Canadian and Los Alamos =

proposals have the capability of providing a =

hundredfold increase in the intensity of =

certain meson and hadron beams over those =

available today. That's 80 GeV.
________________
"Imposed armistices .=
 . . artificially =

freeze conflict and perpetuate a state =

of war indefinitely by shielding the =

weaker side from the consequences of =

refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.182943.8V3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Bruce Johnson asks
>>
>>How long did your party survive before the local residents 
>>rounded you  up and hung you?
>>
> That was the problem.  They had friends.  We got back to 
> town, and they heard about it.  Later that day, when we were 
> strolling into the front foyer of the guest house were were 
> staying at, three men stepped into the room and opened up on 
> us with submachineguns.  Of the six people in our party, one 
> survived.  The three attackers died, but the locals were 
> steamed enough to shoot the survivor after hearing his tale.

Congratulations on rediscovering the principle of the blood feud.

> It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
> principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
> friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
> received.

Also, never *ever* attack someone who has a family. Especially a tight
knit one.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:05:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:05:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <p0433010ab8e24dae9b06@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20416.190000.0p2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:45 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>>  At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>>>>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>>>>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>>>>todal forces are the same.
>>>
>>>  A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the
>>>  size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity
>>>  in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal
>>>  gradient.
>>
>>Actually, the tidal force varies *linearly* with the distance from the
>>center of mass of the body experiencing the tidal forces. Not *quite*
>>the same thing as varying with the size.
>
> The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also 
> true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to 
> another will depend on how far apart they are.

You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
forces). 

>>As a good example, consider some folks in spacesuits tethered to a
>>ship. The forces they experience depend on the distance and direction
>>from the ship, not on the size of the ship.
>
> True.  Though the difference in force between the guy in the space 
> suit different parts of the ship will depend on the size of the ship.

No. I'm talking about the tidal forces on the guy in the suit generated
by the fact that the ship he's attached to is in orbit about a planet.

The forces he experiences at 100 meters from the center of the ship are
ten times those he'd experience at 10 meters (in the same direction).
 
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:06:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:06:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417085805.D28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.190553.2F8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Stephen Tempest wrote:
>> Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?
>
> Of course :)
>
> It varies with which rules, time period, and dataset you use, but my
> figures are on the order of 100 PCr/year.  Never seen a 'P' prefix
> used before?  10^15, in case anyone was wondering ;)

Y	yotta	10^24
Z	zetta	10^21
E	exa	10^18
P	peta	10^15
T	tera	10^12
G	giga	10^9
M	mega	10^6
k	kilo	10^3
h	hecto	10^2
da	deka	10^1

The prefixes go all the way down to 10^-24 too, but those aren't likely
to come up in our discussions.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:07:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:07:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020417120609.C29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Brick wrote:
> If you are going to make a "realistic-feel" limit for Jump Drives,
> it would make more sense to define it in terms of the gravitational
> field strength and forget the diameters thing entirely, except maybe
> as a passing comment such as "for Earth this occurs at 100 planetary
> diameters".


That's exactly what I'm doing.  The tidal gradient *is* the
gravitational field.  Acceleration is coordinate-dependent, and not
intrinsic to gravity.

It so happens that it works out very similar in behaviour to a
diameter based rule, which is an added bonus.  On the other hand, the
fact that the two rules give very similar results may be considered a
problem -- certainly it seems to have caused a lot of confusion here!


- Tim



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
In-Reply-To: <3CBC9A4C.4000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416222702.02624008@192.168.0.1>

At 02:40 PM 4/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>William Lane wrote:
>
>>Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
>>everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
>>info.
>
>That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write XML 
>to Cobol and back...


Way cool!  Can I add this to my Traveller Maintenance Blues page?
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html>

This will great with your other great bit on the subject:
Captain to new crewmember:

"Well, the damn nic in the aft engineering workstation died a month ago, 
and since it's a 150 year old model, it's been hard to find parts...so we 
just do everything by hand...I know, I know, it's a pain, and someday we're 
gonna have to jump on less than 12 hours notice...I'll get _around_ to it, 
ok? Now go pound on the forward stab'rd ventilation controller, the damn 
relay's stuck closed again, and if that keeps upit's gonna be like an 
icebox in the passenger cabins again."


>oBTRav> Captain finds engineer hip deep in the Jump drive controller with 
>an exceptionally old-looking piece of hardware in his hands.
>
>Captain: "Good lord, Scottie! That's a jump *tape* reader! What is that 
>antique doing on my jump drive??"
>
>Engineer: "Well Captain, we cannae find the right components to rrepair 
>the drive controller. Urgvark" he points to a crazed looking Vargr 
>assistant engineer, "...found this in a antique shop. We're tying it into 
>the saircuit right now."
>
>C: "But how will we control it? I haven't seen a jump tape in my life that 
>wasn't in a museum!"
>
>E:"Well Captain, I have a writing head from a holocorder here, we can 
>connect it to the main computer, and have it translate the control 
>instructions from the astrogation program to the correct patterns that a 
>jump tape would have. It should work, in theory, sah. " Shouts "OK 
>Urgvark! Give me some power..."
>
><SNAP> <Pop fsssssshhhhhh> "Turn it off! Turn it off!"
>
>E: Through the smoke..."Ahh captain, we're going ta need some morrre time..."
>
>C: weeps.
>
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170239.TAA01546@ping.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Anthony Jackson says
>>In any case, these aren't traveller mesons, since they
>>seem to actually interact with matter, as opposed to 
>>mystically passing through it without interaction ;)
>
>There seems to be a major misconception about meson beams in 
>Traveller. I still remember reading the original JTAS article.

Nah.  Meson beams have a number of clearly non-physical properties, starting
with the magical 'timed delay'.

>A semistable meson produced either in a neutral 
>form with a mass 264 times that of an electron 
>and a mean lifetime of 8.4  10^17 seconds 
>or in a positively or negatively charged form 
>with a mass 273 times that of an electron and a 
>mean lifetime of 2.6  10^8 seconds. 
>Also called pi meson.

Well, assuming 'lifespan' is half-life, neutral pion is a bit off 
(6.63x10^-17s), charged pion is insanely off (3.76x10^-8), and both
interact via the strong force, giving them penetration not significantly
different from protons at the same energy levels.  Among common partiles,
the best penetrator would be the muon (sometimes called the mu meson,
though it's not a meson), as it's fairly massive (avoiding the effects
that bleed energy off electrons) and doesn't interact via the strong
force.  It also has as longer lifespan than any type of pion (3.17x10^-6).
A teravolt accelerator might have usable range in space combat.

>The Traveller meson was described in an old JTAS
>article.  It is a pi neutral meson.  It has no
>magical non-interaction properties - it is merely
>very highly penetrating, as cosmic rays (which are
>relativistic pi mesons) are.  The reason that cosmic 
>rays don't make it to the ground is that they decay
>before they get lower (the atmosphere does slow them
>down).  A ship targeted by a relativistic beam tuned
>to precipitate the decay of all of its pions a short
>distance into the target is a meson gun.

The decay process described above is clearly magical, since fundamental 
particles don't decay at a fixed time, they simply have a normal logarithmic
decay and will thus have the largest number of decays right in front of the
barrel.  It also requires utterly insane energy levels for neutral pions to
have any range (by the abbreviations given elsewhere, somewhere around 100
YEv).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20416.182943.8V3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204161937200.17414-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Congratulations on rediscovering the principle of the blood feud.
> 
> > It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
> > principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
> > friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
> > received.
> 
> Also, never *ever* attack someone who has a family. Especially a tight
> knit one.
> 
Don't attack people with seriously dysfunctional families, either.

In any given moment, at least 50% of my relatives aren't speaking to at
least one other relative.  That doesn't mean they wouldn't ALL get
together and kick your ass if you attacked one of us-- the principle as
far as I can tell is that we're the only people who are allowed to hurt
us.  I was very, very surprised when my brother, who is on crack half the
time and with whom I can rarely have a civil conversation due to his
racism, sexism and homophobia, decided he was going after my ex-husband,
and I was the only person on earth who was able to stop him.  And did,
because Vince isn't worth that kind of trouble and Tripp doesn't need
another strike toward the three.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170250.EFN02270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson
>
>Nah.  Meson beams have a number of clearly non-physical 
>properties, starting with the magical 'timed delay'.
>

There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes 
are for mesons that are *not* in motion.

Mesons that are moving at relativistic velocities last a 
*lot* longer.  Otherwise, cosmic rays would never pass down 
into our upper atmosphere.

The decay times listed are also from a Los Alamos website.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <3CBD64AF.31847.709971@localhost>
References: <3CBD64AF.31847.709971@localhost>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8e293c05231@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:03 PM +1200 4/17/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 16 Apr 2002 at 20:32, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>
>>  Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
>>  (of radiation effects on fertility)
>>  > Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in
>>  > men, if you prefer)?
>>
>>  Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
>>  the testis to ionising radiation.
>
>How penetrating is ionising radiation in general? If it's not very
>penetrating there should be some adjustment made to allow for the
>ovaries being protected by being inside, rather than outside the torso.

Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can 
easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the 
skin (or more than a meter or two of air).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.190000.0p2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.190000.0p2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8e294f89b54@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:00 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>  > The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also
>>  true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to
>>  another will depend on how far apart they are.
>
>You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
>depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
>ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
>forces).

I'm not sure what force you are talking about.  The force on any one 
part of the ship is the force of gravity.  Tidal forces are the 
relative difference in forces between different parts of an object.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Qiuck Query on US Tax Returns
Message-ID: <3CBCE57F.316C0F85@mail.cswnet.com>

Further clarifications to what John Groth wrote:

>Earnings are based on calendar year (01 Jan X0 - 31 Dec X0), and the >W-2 form should be received no later than 31 Jan X1.

There is a grace period for employers sending out W-2 forms. While the
forms themselves must go out 1/31, taxpayers who have not recieved them
cannot contact the IRS until 2/15.

April 15 is the tax deadline. Extensions to file the taxes are allowed,
but extensions for paying the taxes are not. Thus if you owe and take an
extension you still wind up paying penalties and interest.

>Note also that different states may have income tax filing dates that
>differ from that of the Federal government....

Examples: Arkansas and Louisiana, both file taxes 1 month after the
Federal return, on 5/15.

California requires its taxes on 4/15, but grants an automatic extension
for filing till 10/15. Again, this is for filing only, not for taxes
owed.

Also, some states [Wyoming, Florida, Nevada, Texas, Alaska, Washington,
South Dakota] do not have personal income tax. Two others, New Hampshire
and Tennessee don't really deal with personal tax unless your a richie
with lots of dividends and interest earnings. I imagine that in these
states they get the income via sales and property taxes. Texas, as an
example, has its infamous "Hospitality Tax", which is a sales tax on
hotels and motels.

Then there is that unique fun known to tax preparers as "the all-states
return." This is where the taxpayer has moved from one state to another,
and the tax preparer gets to pull his/her hair out trying to figure all
the tax consequences for the individual. And some states don't make it
easy. Check out Wisconsins Form 827, Legal Residence (Domicile)
Questionnaire. By the time you get done with it, you'll think you've
arrived in the Solomani Confederation.

This is a good place to start:
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

You can get to the IRS site here. It also gives you an overlook at US
states in the "State Tax Profiles" section.

Andy B writes:
>ObTrav: What about tax returns in the Imperium ? In particular, what >about tax returns for expatriot traders and the like - do they pay tax >where their ship is registered, or pro rata per world they stay on, or >what ?

When I first got on the TML, back on the old list, we had a big
discussion about taxes. Actually, I think it was the first question I
posted. IIRC, the general opinion was that the Imperuim itself doesn't
do personal income taxes. It gets its money from planetary transfers
[the 30% thing you see in Striker] and sales taxes [seen chiefly at
Starports, or in systems where the Imperuim controls liscencing for belt
mining]. Personal income taxes are a province of what ever planet you
are from. Be advised that whatever you pc is doing, he will, eventually
and inevitably, have to deal with taxes in one form or another. Take my
little piece of landgrab heaven, Arba/Lunion 1721. Zero government, Zero
lawlevel. The perfect tax shelter, right? Just don't go to the Starport,
cause the SPA needs ALOT of money to run it and you WILL pay thru the
nose going through there. So you go out to the asteroid belt to mine ice
so you don't have to go to the port, right? So sorry, but the Imperuim
requires you to have a prospectors liscence [to help defray the cost of
maintaining a small patrol running through the system]. And so on and so
forth. 

God, I just spent all day yesterday working on other peoples taxes. I
found the whole experience ....

[WAIT FOR IT]




I found the whole experience TAXING.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"Let me tell you how it will be. There's one for you, nineteen for me.
Cause I'm the Tax Man, oh yeah I'm the Tax Man."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:07:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:07:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20416.191041.8G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
>
>>>Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =3D20
>>
>>Shouldnt the hull code be Z? I though Y was for 1,000,000 to=20
>>1,999,999. Z was for anything above that.=20
>
> Y is for 1,000,000 to "the next stated level" - but there isn't one,
> so I'm assuming it's just "over a million tons".  Z is "Reserved".
>
>>>MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
>>Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
>>Architects fees? Anyone?
>
> Standard cost.  If you *really* want to start mass-producing these
> things, you scare me ;-)
>
> I didn't include the architect's fees, but they'd be TCr 376,770.  The
> kind of contract every naval architect dreams of.

Check out Fritz Leiber's novel "The Wanderer" for planet ships.
Including things like PAW mounts with tunnels thousands of miles long. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:08:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:08:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417082001.B28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.192354.1u3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
>> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
> Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
> a nitpick.

I was going by the figures in the post I was responding to, which had a
higher density listed for Mercury.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204170250.EFN02270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204170250.EFN02270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes are for
> mesons that are *not* in motion.

They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half of the
original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has elapsed, 1/4 decay in
the next half-life period, 1/8 in the half-life after that, etc.

In a universe in which electronic precognition is common, you might be
able to look into the future and tell which are going to decay when.
Then you can preferentially accelerate the short-lived ones.  Oh,
you'll need accelerators capable of delivering a few megajoules *per
particle* as well, controllable to within 1 part per trillion, and
reliable precognition to the same accuracy.

Short of that, you'll get a beam of decaying mesons all along your
firing path, with the greatest concentration of decays *inside* your
weapon.


Getting a real meson to decay "on schedule" at a distance of hundreds
of thousands of kilometres is indeed magic of a very high order
according to current physics.  I'm not doubting that they exist in the
Traveller universe, just that their behaviour is radically different
from the way *real* mesons behave.

I'm a fan of the "Dr Meson" theory.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170327.UAA04325@ping.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Anthony Jackson
>>
>>Nah.  Meson beams have a number of clearly non-physical 
>>properties, starting with the magical 'timed delay'.
>>
>
>There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes 
>are for mesons that are *not* in motion.

You missed the point.  The point is that particles don't have 'lifespans'
(that can be extended with relativistic effects).  The have half-lives
(that can also be extended with relativistic effects) but the effect of
a half-life is that decays happen along the entire length of the beam,
with the largest number occuring right in front of the barrel.
>
>Mesons that are moving at relativistic velocities last a 
>*lot* longer.  Otherwise, cosmic rays would never pass down 
>into our upper atmosphere.

Well, cosmic rays are mostly regular nuclei initially; by and large everything
but the muons does decay before reaching the ground.

> The decay times listed are also from a Los Alamos website.

Hm..odd, I got mine off an LBL website.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018991242.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com> <ML-2.3.1018991242.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <i1qpbu0h52l19nh3hil3ubpm159pg14q71@4ax.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:07:22 -0700 (PDT), Anthony Jackson
<ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>I seem to recall something about X-ray lasers being developed, but =
they're not
>exactly weapons-grade.  The old SDI people talked about bomb-pumped =
X-ray
>lasers, a mechanism which AFAIK has never been successfully =
demonstrated, not
>that this prevent people from using it in SF.

I believe that bomb-pumped X-ray lasers were among the last things
examined with the underground nuclear tests.  If I recall, at they
showed some disappointing results in regard to focusing.

Since that time, there have no doubt been refinements to the design to
address the problem, but of course they haven't been tested.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:07:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:07:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com> <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 13:58:32 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
><SNIP>
>>
>> It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In another
>> of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional and
>> compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive me if
>> I am interpreting you incorrectly).  I believe you are in error in
>> this regard.  As per the above, the compressional forces are due to
>> the object's self-gravity and only the tensional forces are due to the
>> influence of another body and therefore are tidal forces.
>
>No. Tidal forces are *away* from the center of the satellite along the
>line joining it to the primary (ie the side closest to the primary is
>pulled towards the primary, and the side opposite the primary is pulled
>*away* from the primary.=20
>
>But the forces in the plane perpendicular to that line are *towards*
>the center of the satellite.=20
>
>so if you were orbiting close to a neutron star in a space suit, your
>feet would be pulled towards the star, your head would be pulled away
>from it and your waist would be getting squeezed.=20

Thank you for the clarification.  I'll admit that I'd forgotten the
"pinching" effect taking place in the plane perpendicular to the axis
passing through the primary and the satellite (though I had a clear
image of a fluid satellite doing exactly this in my mind [THUD]}.

However, I want to point you back to the original point of discussion
and the problem I was having with Tim Little's assertion that Jump
Drives are inherently at 0 diameters of the jumping ship itself.  This
may be true if one views the various limits as being imposed by
gravity, but, in a past discussion, it was elegantly pointed out that
tidal force more closely conforms to the 100 or 10 diameter limit for
the various planetary types than does gravity.

My point was that I believe that a body does not exert tidal force
upon itself.  Rather, those forces only appear in relation to two
separate bodies.  Therefore, a ship, otherwise outside the 100
diameter limit of other system bodies (and the tidal forces upon it
from those bodies is therefore negligible), does not exert a tide upon
itself or, to give Tim his due, that those forces are compressional
and are subsumed in the body's own gravitation.  Therefore, the Jump
drive is not working in a 0 diameter condition.

=46ailing this, I'll have to throw in with the earlier hand wave that
the jump grid defines a boundary within which the tidal force (or
gravitation) can be ignored.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:45:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:45:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416222132.009fa690@mail.attbi.com>

	I appreciate the comments of everyone who has replied to my initial 
post.  I gather that sandcasters would work best
against optical wavelengths and might require a lot of sand, but are not 
entirely infeasible.  Particle beams and X-ray lasers appear to be another 
kettle of fish entirely.  Years ago, before the internet, before I knew 
anyone besides myself might be interested in space combat, I checked out a 
copy of The Effects of Nuclear Weapons.  In it I found some interesting 
tables on the 1/2 value thickness of various material versus various forms 
of radiaton.  The 1/2 value thickness for X-rays was approximately 20 grams 
per square cm for heavy metals.  But that was for a solid plate of 
iron.  If the beam had to pass through a long distance (a few hundred 
meters) would that make any difference?  I am wondering if a long 
scattering distance would reduce the required density.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS TML Skills
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C179DB@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>


Sebastian:
If you have a Skill at Level 0 (e.g. Grav Vehicle-0), and this Skill 'serves
as' another Skill at Level minus 1 (Grav Vehicle serves as Grav Belt -1), at
which Level do I execute the 'served' Skill (Grav Belt)?
at : Level -1 (-> giving a negative DM of 1)?
at : Level 0 (-> minimum Skill-Level is allways 0)?
or not at all (-> there are no 'served' Skills for Level-0-Skills)?


I would go with the first one (giving a negative DM of -1). The other thing
is of course when you have both skills. For example Pilot serves as Ship's
Boat-1. So if you have Ship's Boat-2 and Pilot-3, does your Ship's Boat
become 4 (Pilot-3 minus 1 plus Ship's Boat-2), or is your DM still just 2
and you've wasted two skill levels. 

I love Megatraveller, but like all RPGers I changed it to taste. So for my
system, which has a combo of MT & T4 skills, plus some of my own, any skill
that is related gives a Synergy bonus. For example, I consider Computers and
Robotics linked skills. If you have a Skill level of 2-3 you can add a DM of
1 to a linked skill, and if Skill level 4+ add 2. If you have more than one
linked skill then you only add the highest bonus. 

I have found it works very well. I am more than happy to email to you if
you're interested, along with the reworked task & generation rules. 

Mikey

PS I rolled Ships Boat into Pilot. I thought it was stoopid to have them
separate. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>
References: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com> <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020417150233.E29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> in a past discussion, it was elegantly pointed out that tidal force
> more closely conforms to the 100 or 10 diameter limit for the
> various planetary types than does gravity.

At the risk of repeating myself: tidal gradient *is* the gravitational
field.  The gravitational field *is* the tidal gradient.  This is
particularly true in General Relativity, where gravitational
"acceleration" has no real existence, and the tidal gradient
corresponds precisely to the spacetime curvature.  This curvature (the
gravitational field) exists inside solid objects as well as outside.


> Failing this, I'll have to throw in with the earlier hand wave that
> the jump grid defines a boundary within which the tidal force (or
> gravitation) can be ignored.

That's what I use.  Works for me.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:16:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:16:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204162126.g3GLQsn00991@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20416.215652.8Q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
>> network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
>> just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.
>> 
>> In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
>> a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
>> wormholes have to share a reference frame.
>
> I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim

The existence of a preferred frame, means that laws of physics work
differently in *that* frame than in other frames. Which violates the
hell out of relativity and has other consequences as well. 

But if your drive only works in *that* reference frame or is otherwise
"tied" to it, you don't have to woory about time travel and other problems.

You *do* have to worry about explaining how it is that it just so
happens that this section of the milky way is moving at the right speed
in the right direction for FTL to be "easy" when it's very hard for the
rest of the universe.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:16:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:16:59 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <p04330109b8e24d6388f8@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20416.215513.5m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:28 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in
>>  > near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near
>>>  misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a
>>>  single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?
>>
>>We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
>>outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.
>
> We are looking.  There is a program underway to catalog Earth 
> crossing asteroids....

Yes, but they are looking for the *big* ones, not the measly little
hundred meter jobs. Detecting those would be nice, but if one hit it
wouldn't be much worse than a big nuke.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Added search to archives
Message-ID: <B8E2563E.3AD20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

I just integrated the htdig search engine into the tml archives.  Give it a
spin.

Now we just need to convert old tml archives into mailbox format and we'll
have all the archives back to 1994 online and searchable.

I'm looking for volunteers.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
Message-ID: <200204170555.WAA10726@ping.iii.com>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:

>In mail you write:
>
>>> Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
>>> network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
>>> just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.
>>> 
>>> In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
>>> a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
>>> wormholes have to share a reference frame.
>>
>> I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim
>
>The existence of a preferred frame, means that laws of physics work
>differently in *that* frame than in other frames. Which violates the
>hell out of relativity and has other consequences as well. 

Well, it means that FTL works differently in that reference frame than
others; specifically, that reference frame is one in which all FTL transits
appear to take positive time.  It does mean that using FTL, the 
michealson-morley experiment will actually work and return an absolute
velocity relative to this reference frame.
>
>But if your drive only works in *that* reference frame or is otherwise
>"tied" to it, you don't have to woory about time travel and other problems.
>
>You *do* have to worry about explaining how it is that it just so
>happens that this section of the milky way is moving at the right speed
>in the right direction for FTL to be "easy" when it's very hard for the
>rest of the universe.

Note, however, that if you _create_ a wormhole network, the act of doing so
defines a preferred frame of reference.  As long as you don't/can't create
a second network (with a different reference frame), explaining this isn't
a problem (explaining the inability to create more than one network may
require some handwaving).

And the 'priveleged reference frame' doesn't have to be the same as the
speed of the milky way.  It means that some FTL trips will seem to take
negative time, but since the round trip time remains constant, no actual
causality violation can occur.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F101Yg83alUohIi6YEF00006b18@hotmail.com>

I'm cross posting this to the list and sending it directly to Bruce 
MacIntosh as well.

>Mr. Holmstrm,
>
>I'm a member of the TML and I recently ran across an old email you sent out 
>proposing rules for the building of chem-det lasers using Bruce Macintosh's 
>"MCS" starship combat rules.
>
>If you're still playing Traveller and it isn't an imposition on you, could 
>you tell me if you ever finished a final draft of your rules?

Ohh, I'm still playing Traveller/reading the TML. The short answer to your 
question is "sort of yes" but the long answer is more interesting. I tried 
to pick apart the NukeDet tables in FFS and the warhead table in MCS and 
reverse engineer the Frag and ChemDet warheads using MCS and FFS. The major 
problems are that the ChemDet and Frag warheads mentioned in MCS might be 
handwaved and lacks stats (mass/vol/price). More details on NukeDets in 
FFS1/2 would also help. The discussion below assumes that the reader knows 
FFS and MCS. If I'm unclear somewhere just yell.

Most of my argument uses this table from MCS:
>Type                    Pen:Damage     Defence Nuclear Det-Laser            
>                                            TL15    19:13           -7
>                TL13    18:12           -7
>                TL10    17:11           -7
>Chemical Det-Laser-13   13:10           -6
>Fragmentation KKMSIM-10 10:14           -3

If the ChemDets are supposed to have a PEN calue of 13 this means that it 
must have a FFS2 DV of at least 21 (assuming PEN = 10*DAM => MCS DAM 7). 
This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking about a 
X-ray laser to it needs to be at least TL13. MCS states that NukeDets has a 
penetration value of 20 times the FFS2 damage value (instead of the usual 
PEN = 10xDAM). Further it states that the warhead (as a whole) has twice the 
damage compared to the listed damage (per beam) in FFS2. This can be used to 
determine the yield of the NukeDets used in the MCS missile table. Note that 
all the warheads mass around 500 kg.

TL     Yield    Damage  Wt       Vol
10     100 kt    80     540 kg   270 l
13     200 kt    94     500 kg   250 l
15     500 kt   113     500 kg   250 l

From the PD modifiers in MCS I drew the conclusion that ChemDets detonate 
closer to their target than DetNukes and that Frags detonates even closer. 
At shorter distances the missile will be easier to hit but this works both 
ways. Every -1 on defence makes the missile twice as hard to hit (based on 
PD RoF modifiers).

Warhead      Eff.
NukeDet       1
ChemDet       2
Frag         16

To bring the damage of the ChemDet warhead up to DAM 10 we need to hit the 
target 3 times (compared with 2 for NukeDets)using 40Mj laser pulses. Since 
the ChemDet detonates at a more efficient distance we only have to use 67% 
as many lasing rods as on a NukeDet.

Here is where we run out of information. How many lasing rods are there in a 
NukeDet? Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow 
up) or something more powerful (that does)? Can a lasing rod (as used in 
NukeDets) also be used with chemicals? What is the cost/weight/volume of the 
lasing rod and tracking telescope?


There are two ways to handle this.

1. Assume that all warheads in the MCS missile list are 500 kg/250 l. The 
cost of the ChemDet warhead is anybody's guess but say 100 kCr. The ChemDet 
with PEN13 and DAM10 will represent the baseline warhead and can be modified 
as follows.

Modify weight and volume based on Tech Level.

TL  Wt and Vol mod
13   1.00
16   0.67

By changing the power and number of the lasing rods different warheads can 
be constructed. Change the PEN and DAM values and then apply the weight, 
volume and price modifiers. Each extra point can be added to either DAM or 
PEN but not to both.  Points can also be transferred (e.g. PEN+1/DAM-1) at 
no cost.

Bonus*   Wt, Vol and Price mod
+1          1.5  (1.46)
+2          2.0  (2.15)
+3          3.0  (3.16)
+4          4.5  (4.65)
+5          7.0  (6.81)
+6         10.0  (10.0)
For negative modifiers divide instead.

Examples

A TL11 ChemDet warhead (-2).
Pen = 13 - 1 = 12.
Dam = 10 - 1 = 9.
Wt = 500 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 500 kg.
Vol = 250 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 250 l.
Price = 100 / 2.0 = 50 kCr.

A TL13 Heavy ChemDet Warhead (+3).
Pen = 13 + 2 = 15.
Dam = 10 + 1 = 11.
Wt = 500 * 3.0 = 1500 kg.
Vol = 500 * 3.0 = 750 l.
Price = 100 * 3.0 = 300 kCr.


A +3 ChemDet warhead and a ring of imperial intervention is all a traveller 
needs. ;) The modifiers are based on the 6*log10 damage scale of MCS and the 
Chemical Lasing Cartridge efficiency table. I believe this gives reasonable 
numbers but one might want to differentiate the TL table a bit.


2. Running the numbers of a 500 kg warhead using standard components.

A 40Mj 10 cm X-ray focal array with 10'000 km effective range at TL13.
Focal area  : 0.007854 m2.
Focal vol   : 0.000314 m3.
Focal mass  : 0.314 kg.
Focal price : 31.4 Cr.

Input energy  : 61.54 Mj.
Cartridge wt  : 30.77 kg.
Cartridge vol : 3.127 l.
I can't find the listed price for CLC cartridges in FFS2 so I use FFS1 
figures instead.
Cartridge price : 1850 Cr.

The weight limitation allows 16 cartridges to be fitted.
Warhead Wt    : 497.3 kg.
Warhead Vol   : 55.06 l.
Warhead Price : 30 kCr.

The result a very cheap and compact warhead but I doubt that 16 cartridges 
are enough since a NukeDet probably has more than 24 lasing rods. Building 
the thing with TL15 will allow for 21 cartridges and TL16 gets us 35 (mainly 
due to better cartridges). To be completely legal the warhead would need a 
beampointer which adds ~1000 kg at TL13. With a beampointer it is hard to 
see how any of the beams could miss at all.

Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a lot. 
TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge? Double this?


Ideas/Comments are welcomed.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20417.015401.9f1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> However, I want to point you back to the original point of discussion
> and the problem I was having with Tim Little's assertion that Jump
> Drives are inherently at 0 diameters of the jumping ship itself.  This
> may be true if one views the various limits as being imposed by
> gravity, but, in a past discussion, it was elegantly pointed out that
> tidal force more closely conforms to the 100 or 10 diameter limit for
> the various planetary types than does gravity.
>
> My point was that I believe that a body does not exert tidal force
> upon itself.  Rather, those forces only appear in relation to two
> separate bodies.  Therefore, a ship, otherwise outside the 100
> diameter limit of other system bodies (and the tidal forces upon it
> from those bodies is therefore negligible), does not exert a tide upon
> itself or, to give Tim his due, that those forces are compressional
> and are subsumed in the body's own gravitation.  Therefore, the Jump
> drive is not working in a 0 diameter condition.

Alas, any ship has to be treated as a collection of particles. And each
of those particles *does* exert forces on the others. And some could be
described as tidal forces. 

In any case the field will vary in weird and wonderful ways. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:42:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:42:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20417.015559.9o2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hi,
>
>> There are "clusters". And it's *really* unlikely that any sizable body
>> will have a density much above Mercury's. At least in a "normal"
>> system. The planets that form around supernova remnants are likely to
>> be very different.
>
> Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

Yes, but it's above by less than .2 g/cm^3. Im' talking about the
likelihood of planet's with densitys 1, 2 or more g/cm^3 above earth's.

Also, the post I was replying to had the wrong density for Mercury, and
had it being denser than earth. I didn't check my references until
someone pointed out the error.

> Besides, what's "normal" ? Our solar system could be the odd one out, for
> all we know. Until we survey a few others, I'd say it was not a good idea to
> make assumptions concerning the frequency of systems like ours. Consider the
> size of our moon to the Earth, for example. If it hadn't have been for a
> body the size of Mars hitting the just-born Earth, the Earth would have been
> larger and the moon non-existent, with dramatic effects on evolution and
> culture thereafter. The chances of that collision happening may have been
> vanishingly small, making the Earth Moon system unique.

The sort of normalcy I'm talking about is based soely on elemental
abundances and the way a cloud of dust and gas collapses to form
planets. Which none of the recent discoveries have modified in a way
that affects the density of inner planets that aren't gas giants. 

You wind up with only three types of material to build planets from.
Ices, "stony" materials and nickel-iron and the few elements that like
to accumulate along with it in "melts". 

Once a body gets big enough, radioative decay (far more important
several billion years back and likely equally important in any
forming solar system due to supernovas helping "push" things together)
will cause first the "ices" to melt, which lets the grains of other
materials sink to the center. 

This gives a layer of ice over a layer of liquid over a loosely packed
core of stony material. Eventually as the radioactives decay it'll
freeze. 

If it's big enough, the stony part will melt and form various minerals.
And the stuff not soluble in alumina and silica will settle to the
center giving a nickel iron core.

Once enough planetismals come together, they start sweeping up any
others that get close. As well as remaining gas and dust. Big enough
collections become gas giants, brown dwarfs or even stars. 

Once a star lights up, it drives out the gas and dust from the inner
system, causing it to get collected by the larger of the planets
farther out. Which grow even bigger. 

It also tends to bake out the "ices" on inner system bodies unless they
are already small gas giants. This gets distributed to the outer system
as well. 

And depending on factors we aren't sure of, gas giants may slowly
spiral inward in many systems until the gas and dust that are slowing
them are gone. In the process they tend to absorb any planets that
formed in orbits inside of their original orbits (though they may also
eject some from the system).

In any case, the only way to *get* a nickel iron core is to be a body
larger enough to melt from internal heat, large enough to have a enough
nickel and iron, and small enough to not turn into a gas giant.

Such bodies will, due to simple elemental abundances, have *much* more
stony material than nickel-iron.

If they are small enough, and there are enough of them to form a "belt"
you'll get colisions fragmenting the surface and you could get an
exposed iron core. But that takes a pretty small body. 

Anything that's even a size 1 planet is way too big for that. 

So only systems with *really* skewed elemental abundances will have
worlds with densities much higher than Earth's. Or other *really* weird
situations. The pulsatr planets, rocky planets that are insanely close
to their primary (work out what would be left of Earth after a few
billion years at 0.1 AU from the sun, for example). etc.

> Finally, all non-jovian planets form from Supernova remnants. That's what
> (a) manufactures the heavier elements in the first place, and (b) creates a
> large cloud of particulate and gas that condenses to form a new star. The
> presence of anything above the lighter elements in the solar system implies
> that the Sun and its family owe their existence to the previous catastrophic
> death of a long dead star.
>
> If you are referring to oddities like pulsar planets here, then I'd agree
> they would probably be denser if they formed from debris. But then, its more
> likely that a pulsar has captured a body ejected from another system, as
> supernovas tend to clear the area near the site of the explosion and drive
> all the suitable accretion material well away from the pulsar itself. That
> Hubble image of the 1987A (?, can't remember the designation now) supernova
> remnant shows this in practice - a huge shockwave travelling at relativistic
> velocities away from the pulsar corem driving superheated gas and
> particulate with it.

Except that they are likely to have some sort of accretion disks of
matter that *didn't* reach escape velocity. That's apt to be
preferentially enriched with denser materials.

>> Ain't gonna happen. The abundance of materials in the cloud of dust and
>> gas a system forms from means that anything with a substantial iron
>> core will have a lot more rocky material overlying it.
>
> Just because it's less likely doesn't mean it won't happen. A few years ago,
> superjovians in the inner system were thought impossible, and then guess
> what they found ?

But that just showed that orbits weren't as stable as we thought, and
that large bodies might form close to where the star did. 

They are still gas giants in most respects.

> Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
> that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
> An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
> perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
> planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
> come up eventually.

Thing is, if it wasn't rare, we'd see more variation in densities of
objects in this system. Only bodies that get that dense are asteroid
fragments. 

The problem is managing to collect all that iron and then get *rid* of
all the *rock* that had to accumulate with it.

Rules of thumb are expected to work *most* of the time. and that's all
the 100 diameter limit is.

>> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
>> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
> Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
> in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
> superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

If they get big enough, that can't happen. so either they formed
farther out and moved in, or they were running a close second to the
body that became the star. 

>> I'm not going to quit indicating emphasis. And the alternatives are
>> asterisks or underlines and the asterisks are much easier to hit.
>
> Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
> message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
> need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
> all.

Sorry, but emphasis can change the meaning of a sentence. And convey
extra meaning. 

>> Yes, it's harder to read a sentence where you individually emphasize
>> each word with them. But that's not what I'm doing.
>
> No, but it made the point - the *'s draw your eyes to particular key words
> and make the sentence harder to read.

Harder for *you*, maybe. You are the only person I've ever heard make
such an argument. And I'm far from the only person who uses them. 

Also, they don't draw my eyes to such words. They modify the emphasis
as I reach the word. They don't "pull" my eyes on ahead.

By your argument, I shouldn't use emphasis in speaking either. And
that's just plain silly.

>> As for patronizing, I'm not responsible for what you read into what I
>> write.
>
> Hah ! Have you ever thought of a career in politics ? :-)
>
> Seriously, if you decide to emphasize particular words, then you are
> attempting to enforce those words and colour the interpretation of the
> sentence, which is what emphasis is all about anyway. Take the sentence
> above, "it's *really* unlikely" - there was no need to emphasize the word
> "really" here at all. The wording was more than sufficient. All you achieved
> was to add a dismissive/patronising tone, as if to say "it's so unlikely
> that it's not even worth considering, so I am not going to".

I emphasized it because if I was speaking I'd stress that word. That's
not being patronizing, that's saying that I consider it very, very
unlikely. Without resorting to overly awkward phrasing. 

>> Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
>> of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
>> something that will be directly proportional to it.
>
> Why does it have to vary with the inverse cube of the distance ? That
> automatically makes the assumption that I argued against, which is "just
> because the figures fit it must be right".

Work it out for yourself. Any "force" that is the same at X diameters
(where X <>1) from bodies of different sizes *does* vary by the cube of
the distance.  That's the way the geometry works. See below.

> I'd agree that the tidal figures
> being identical for a given density across all world sizes seems convincing,
> until you remember that densities are not going to be uniform at all. Then
> the "figures matching" evidence breaks down (IIRC, Larger rocky/terrestrial
> worlds are likely to have a higher density, as their proto-cores must have
> been more massive during accretion to gain the additonal mass in the first
> place - therefore as you go from UWP Size 1 to A, the density is likely to
> increase, and the tidal force likewise).

Except that back when the 100 diameter ruke was set forth, all the
rules for calculating things about planets explicitly stated that you
were to assume that they had the same density.

Check out the reprints of the first three books.

> Might it not make more sense to say that 100 diameters was a simplification
> for the game, and an arbitrary value, rather than cook the Physics books to
> justify it ? If you are going to make a "realistic-feel" limit for Jump
> Drives, it would make more sense to define it in terms of the gravitational
> field strength and forget the diameters thing entirely, except maybe as a
> passing comment such as "for Earth this occurs at 100 planetary diameters".

Work out the field strength at 100 diameters for size 1 thru 10 planets
assuming densities similar to that of earth or even Mars. The figures
are *way* off. 

Since field strength varies by inverse *square*, but mass varies as the
*cube* of the diameter, you get huge differences. 

Call the mass of a size 1 world 1. And the field strength at 100
diameters 1. 

A size 10 world has 1000 times the mass (volune is proprotional to the
cube of the size). It's 10 times bigger, which makes 100 diameters, 10
times as big as with the size one world. So we have 1000 times the mass
but only 10 times the distance. With an inverse square law, that means
the force would be 1000/(10^2) stronger.

X = KM/R^2

So the field strength at 100 diameters from a size 10 world is ten
times that of the strength at 100 diameters from a size 1 world of the
same density.

To get density differences to make up the differences, the *larger*
world would have to be 1/10th as dense as the *smaller* world. And that
ain't gonna happen.

If the force varies by the inverse *cube*, then you've got 1000 times
the mas at 10 times the distance, but instead of X=KM/R^2, you've got
X=KM/R^3. 

So you've got 1000/(10^3) = 1

*That* is why it has to depend on the inverse cube. 

I worked out the fact that inverse cube was needed *before* I knew that
tidal forces followed an inverse cube law.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:43:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:43:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b8e294f89b54@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20417.014254.3E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 7:00 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>  > The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also
>>>  true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to
>>>  another will depend on how far apart they are.
>>
>>You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
>>depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
>>ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
>>forces).
>
> I'm not sure what force you are talking about.  The force on any one 
> part of the ship is the force of gravity.  Tidal forces are the 
> relative difference in forces between different parts of an object.

The "tidal forces" are due to a combination of gravity *and* motion. 

Remember, the ship is assumed to be in "free fall" (ie freely
responding to gravity in some sort of orbit) when you figure the tidal
acceleration due to the body the ship is orbiting (Note: I'm using
"orbit" loosely, to include things like parabolic and hyperbolic
trajectories) 

The "tidal forces" are due to differences in the strength of the
primary's field and due to the motion of the ship in it's orbit.

The magnitude of the forces depends not on the size of the *orbiting*
body, but on the distance from the center of mass of that body, and
what direction you are from the center relative to the line connecting
primary and satellite.

So, at a given distance from earth, the tidal forces at the center of
mass of a ship due to Earth will be *zero*. At they will increase as
you move away from that point. The direction and magnitude of the
forces depends on the distance from that center and upon the direction
relative to the line joining that point to the center of the Earth.

Anything "attached" to the ship is subject to those forces. 

The forces will be the same at 100 meters in a given direction from the
center of the ship whether the ship is a tiny scout with a pole
sticking out in that direction or or 1 km long ship with that point
being inside the ship.

Secondary effects due to the mass distribution of the ship will modify
those forces. But it's not the "size" of the ship per se that
determines the strength or direction of the forces.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:43:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:43:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCECFCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
> How penetrating is ionising radiation in general?

Alpha particles will be stopped by skin (will travel 5-7cm in air).
Ingested alpha emitters are problematic, though.

Beta particles travel 2-8m in air. They might actually traverse
the abdominal or chest wall, if you're really thin.

Gamma rays have a half thickness (50% attenuation) of 12cm of water.
Fast neutrons (energy of more than 500keV) have greater
penetration than gammas.

The fudge factor I suggested accounts for the increased radiosensitivity of
the ovary.

Their location is irrelevant as the most likely radiation types encountered
will be gamma radiation, neutrons and cosmic rays.

David Summers wrote :-
> I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the
> fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
Damn shame, that <g>.


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:45:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:45:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F169fBi0SHfgcSoVW04000117c4@hotmail.com>

Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to 
enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?

This concept is pretty palatable in the US, because there has to be 
jurisdiction for a court to hear a case and due process is constitutionally 
guaranteed.  But is that necessarily the case in the Imperium?

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:45:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:45:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8e293c05231@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204170923130.29728-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, David P. Summers wrote:
> Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can 
> easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the 
> skin (or more than a meter or two of air).

Hm, don't alpha particles have even less range than beta? I remember
something like centimeter scale ranges in air.

Of course, they won't penetrate the skin. Still, if you get them into your
body, they are mighty dangerous: the heavier the particle, the greater the
damage. (Alpha particles are helium nuclei, that is, two protons and two
neutrons, and about 8000 times more massive than electrons which make up
beta radiation.)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:19:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:19:24 2002
Subject: [TML] The L-E Digest?
Message-ID: <F82qi8VjUwZcSlVviFl0000bd6b@hotmail.com>

In mail, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) asked:

>Nah, if everyone who goofed did that who'd be posting? :-)

<tongue-in-cheek>
Um, just you?
</tongue-in-cheek>

Jeff.
"Who ordered the Meat Feast with extra Bantha?" - Pizza the Hutt.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:21:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:21:06 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.220459.6d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Check out how much space *8* tons (mass) of liquid oxygen takes up.
>
> I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?
>
> When I scoop ice from an iceball, I get lots of hydrogen in the form
> of water.  Water is a more compact way to store hydrogen than LH2.  So
> I *keep* the water.  I run the ammonia, methane, or some more water
> through the fuel processor to fill up the smaller LH2 tanks (possibly
> extracting some nitrogen for life support), throw away all the
> methane, and either keep or throw away the ammonia.

You want it because you were making such a fuss about not being able to
use oxygen to convert methane to water and CO2 because you'd lose the
oxygen if you threw away the CO2.

Also, what version of Traveller are you running? Most version have jump
fuel being the majority of the tankage?

>> And you'll have to have to have *seperate* tanks for the 9 tons of
>> water, the 8 tons of LOX, and the 1 ton of LH2.
>
> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
> over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
> LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
> unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
> paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.

Only if the *mass* of the ship doesn't matter in your TU. Because you
are using 9 times the *mass* even if the tank is smaller. Which will
have a major impact on performance.

> The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
> volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
> water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
> upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.

Only at the cost of *not* being able to refuel by scopping at a gas
giant. The atmosphere is 90%+ hydrogen. So unless you carry along all
that extra oxygen (LOX is the easiest way to do so) you can't use
it. Not unless you can store it as LH2. Which you can't do in the water
tanks.

>> Oh yeah, actually, the odds are you'd seperate the methane *first*,
>> simply because it will be the first component of the mix to turn
>> into a gas.
>
> Yep, mainly so I can get rid of it before putting it in the tanks at
> all.  Ammonia I can deal with later, since I don't need highly
> expensive long-term cryogenic tanks to hold ammonia solution.  I can
> separate it later if I want.

No, but you can't use the water for drinking, and it needs special
handling as ammonia water is corrosive.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:21:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:21:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20416.223451.7R6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson writes:
> <Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would 
> work
> reasonably well against just about any weapon.>
>
> Ok, what is the difference between sand and chaff?  I always that chaff was 
> strips of foil cut to a particular length of the
> wavelength of a radar, and the sand in a sandcaster used particles of the 
> correct size to interact with the laser wavelength.  I thought they were 
> the same process.

Nope. The particle size for light wavelengths is *way* too fine. And
the mechanism would be rather different anyway.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20416.221609.5h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/16/02 3:50 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:
>
>> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
>> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
>> over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
>> LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
>> unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
>> paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.
>> 
>> The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
>> volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
>> water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
>> upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.
>> 
>
> Just curious, but what about storing H2 as hydrides?  Don't you get a higher
> density?

But an even worse *mass* penalty than water, ammonia or methane.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:26:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:26:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018999846.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20416.223754.8r1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>> 
>> The particles take a fair amount of energy to melt. While molten they
>> continue to retro-reflect part of the beam and disperse the rest.
>> 
>> They take even more energy to vaporize and form a plasma easily. The
>> plasma is opaque to laser energy and absorbs even *more* of the beam
>> energy.
>
> Now, let's consider a typical example: a typical TTL13 X-ray laser.
> It focuses to a beam 1 cm wide, with an unclear duration; we'll
> assume 100 milliseconds, as that will avoid significant problems with
> the beam impact point moving.  The total beam energy is on the order
> of 400 megajoules, and has a damage value (T4) of 50.

That's a *pulse* energy.

> The target is a 200 dton sphere, with a cross-section of 240 square meters. 
> One can at AV 50 is 320 kilograms.  Since the beam has a cross-section of
> 0.0001 m^2, it actually strikes 0.13 grams of sand.
>
> As it happens, X-rays can go through that much material without even worrying
> about getting it out of the way.  Ignoring that, if we assume the 'sand' is
> synthetic diamond, it has a heat of vaporization of 8 kilojoules.  Further
> ignoring the fact that X-rays don't generally reflect very well, through a
> variety of tricks we'll argue that the actual energy of vaporization is 1
> megajoule (125x greater).
>
> 399 megajoules to go.  Well, perhaps the vapor is opaque.

Well, plasmas tend to be very opaque to many wavelengths. Obviously,
you tune the composition of the "sand" to enhance this.

> Let's add another
> megajoule to the vapor, heating it up to some obscene temperature, and assume
> that 90% of the absorbed energy is lost to immediate reradiation.  The
> remaining 100 kilojoules causes the gas in the path of the laser to explode
> outwards, with an average velocity of 39 kilometers per second.  1 
> microsecond
> later, the plasma has had its density drop by a factor of around 10, which
> should allow the X-rays to shine through.  Since the power output is 4
> megajoules per microsecond, the total energy absorbed by the sand is maybe 5
> megajoules.  Gee, only another 80x increase in efficiency and we'll actually
> stop the beam.

Excuse me? 4 megajoules per microsecond is 4 *terawatts* beam beam. 

A 4 megajoule *pulse that lasts a microsecond *is* apt to get stopped.
Or at least badly dispersed.

>> Well, in space, outside of low orbit, stuff like sand and "smoke" tend
>> to be rather more effective, because they don't get left behind. 
>
> Well, if you don't use any thrust and use gravetics to prevent the stuff from
> wandering, sure.

Check the rules. Sand is *specificly* described as getting left behind
if you accelerate.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:27:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:27:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20416.232156.7Z0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Dear Folks -
>
> In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see 
> <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file 
> their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
>
> Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and 
> although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the 
> end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned 
> for a financial year until after you've earned it.
>
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
> timetable works??

For normal people, the tax year runs from Jan 1 to Dec 31. Employers
have until Jan 31 to get the W-2 forms (which show how much you made
and how much tax was withheld) to you. And you've got until April 15th
to file your taxes for the year that ended Dec 31.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:29:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:29:07 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20416.150551.5I5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <00ec01c1e624$f8803f10$1f9e15ac@warrior>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?


> In mail you write:
>
> > ObTrav:  There is a (Star Trek created?) stereotype of
> > the engineer who can fix anything but no one can tell
> > how he does it.  What other stereotypes are common in
> > your games?
>
> The "engineer as wizard" stereotype has existed *at least* as long as
> widespread use of steam engines. And some would argue it goes back to
> the old seige engineers of medieval and Roman times.
>

I seem to remember reading somewhere that early artillerists were considered
practioneers of black magic :)



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:57:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:57:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>; from david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au on Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:56:56AM +1000
References: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020416192131.A14539@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:56:56AM +1000,
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> 
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
> timetable works??

You've until 15 April to post your tax return--that is, the
calculation of how much you owe or are owed--for the _last_ year.  So
a few weeks back I posted my return for 1 January-31 December '01.
Ended up owing money, which annoys a lot of people, but not me.

Why?  Because I held onto that money for the duration of the year, and
thus could earn interest on it.  Getting a tax return from the gov't
is another way of saying that you lent it some great sum without
interest.  Who'd want to do that?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The English love making fun of foreigners, whose mere existence they
regard as an enormous jest.                             --Iain Pears

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:59:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:59:45 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020416231641.82811.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417083837.009f5b80@mindspring.com>

At 09:16 AM 4/17/02 +1000, you wrote:

>Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
>are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
>pointy stick :)

Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future leader of men?  :P


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"What are we gonna do tonight Brain?"
"the same thing we do every 4 years Pinky,
Judge Olympic Figure Skating!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 10:01:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 09:01:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half 
>of the original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has 
>elapsed, 1/4 decay in the next half-life period, 1/8 in the 
>half-life after that, etc.
>

then it's not possible to accelerate *any* mesons at all, 
given their half-life.  Almost all of them would be gone 
before they got to the end of the accelerator.

Please contact Los Alamos and inform them that the meson 
accelerator that they have been using since 1968 is a fake.  
It sends beams of mesons out without irradiating the 
accelerator.  The only items that become "hot" are in the 
target area.  Please explain how that is done.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 10:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Apr 17 09:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
Message-ID: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com>

I can think of one good reason for ships to ignore their own '100D Limit', 
the Solomani beating the Vilani, Starships to refuel from Gas Giants, 
Stewards et al to earn seemingly inflated wages and a whole host of other 
'unrealistic' issues with the Official Traveller Universe...

It is a GAME - it is meant to be FUN.

Yes, we can enjoy trying to 'prove' or 'disprove' various facets of 
Traveller "life" based on current knowledge, but please remember that:
(a)not everybody really cares if it is possible in RealLife(tm) to dodge a 
laser 'fired' by someone standing five feet away,
(b)Earth is flat/the center of the Universe; man will never travel quicker 
than 25mph without suffocating; man will never reach the moon; Einstein's 
"Special THEORY of Relativity" is, um, a theory...
(c)we know more now than the Great Ancient Ones wrote the LBBs.

It could just be me, but I sometimes get the impression that we get a little 
wrapped up in discussing the technical aspects of the game and forget that 
it is "just a game".
There is much more information available in the 'public domain' than when 
the first edition of "Traveller" left the printers.  We seem to have people 
from nearly all walks of life in the TML membership (except Lawyers:-), so 
we have a much greater depth and breadth of experience an knowledge to draw 
upon.

Or, to quote the Wise Old Bird...

"Because it is artistically *right*..."

Whinge over, I now return you to your previous incarnations...

Jeff
(By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how 
much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight 
slows the game a little..?)

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 10:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 09:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204171605.EGN07388@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug gives advice:

>>Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
>>are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
>>pointy stick :)
>
>Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future 
>leader of men?  :P
>

God help them.  I'm almost of the opinion that officers 
should be enlisted first.  Even academy cadets should 
complete 2 years before going to the academy.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:36:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:36:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not?
In-Reply-To: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204171212050.4680-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Jeff Rowse wrote:
> It is a GAME - it is meant to be FUN.

But these discussions ARE fun!

> (a)not everybody really cares if it is possible in RealLife(tm) to dodge a 
> laser 'fired' by someone standing five feet away,

Nobody really has to care; the discussion can and should be ignored
whenever it gets in the way of actually playing the game.  Very few posts
to this list are accompanied by the message, "Warning: we recommend
avoiding Traveller until this issue is resolved.  Proceed at yourown risk."

> (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how 
> much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight 
> slows the game a little..?)

Roll to see if I eat your spleen.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:37:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:37:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020417203822.1ab3cb30.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Roseberry wrote:
> Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
> Architects fees? Anyone?

Slartibartfast

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20416.223754.8r1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019061859.2225.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
>
> > 399 megajoules to go.  Well, perhaps the vapor is opaque.
> 
> Well, plasmas tend to be very opaque to many wavelengths. Obviously,
> you tune the composition of the "sand" to enhance this.

Right, I'm assuming this.
> 
> Excuse me? 4 megajoules per microsecond is 4 *terawatts* beam beam. 

Sure.  A 400 megajoule pulse lasting 100 microseconds.
> 
> A 4 megajoule *pulse that lasts a microsecond *is* apt to get stopped.
> Or at least badly dispersed.

Agreed.  The problem is we have a 400 megajoule pulse that lasts 100
microseconds.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:47:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:47:44 2002
Subject: [TML] LAMPF - a meson facility!
In-Reply-To: <200204170105.EFJ07268@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019061201.9084.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> ObTrav:  After your ship is hit by a meson weapon, assuming 
> you're still alive, is the ship a radioactive wreck?

Not in the area people are still alive.  Energy required to make appreciably
radioactive far exceeds energy required to kill.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:48:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:48:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F169fBi0SHfgcSoVW04000117c4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019060914.2767.ajackson@ping>

Sam D writes:
> Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to 
> enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?

No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in state
courts work.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:49:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:49:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019061329.2060.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> then it's not possible to accelerate *any* mesons at all, 
> given their half-life.  Almost all of them would be gone 
> before they got to the end of the accelerator.

Nah.  The half-life of charged mesons is sufficiently long that if you generate
them in the accelerator, they can be accelerated to a reasonable energy before
too many of them decay.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not?
Message-ID: <20020417185524.030254508@mo120usjc.palm.net>

Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
__________
>On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Jeff Rowse wrote: 
>> It is a GAME - it is meant to be FUN. 
>But these discussions ARE fun! 

In a bizzare fashion, yes.  They do tend to chase down rat holes self-repecting rats would turn their noses up at.

Trust me on this. Not only have I been down those rat holes, I've given tours and probably have squatters rights by now.

>> (a)not everybody really cares if it is possible in RealLife(tm) to dodge a  
>> laser 'fired' by someone standing five feet away, 
>Nobody really has to care; the discussion can and should be ignored 
>whenever it gets in the way of actually playing the game.  Very few posts 
>to this list are accompanied by the message, "Warning: we recommend 
>avoiding Traveller until this issue is resolved.  Proceed at yourown risk." 
> 
>> (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how  
>> much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight  
>> slows the game a little..?) 
>Roll to see if I eat your spleen. 

Ah...but they let you use your Really KEWL medical rules.  Break out the transplant rules!

"Wadda yous mean you shoot out his liver!?! Doc sez I'm on da wagon till I get a new one.  If you think I'm mean drunk, wait to see me in a DT fit."

> 
>	Gregory Kettler 
>	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before." 
>			--Dave, KODT 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New Filk
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417092008.009ea920@mindspring.com>

I put this up on my Live Journal, but it didn't get much response there, so 
I'd thought I'd post it here.

Flaming Eye

To the tune of "The Red Queen" by Leigh Ann Hussey
(note: the scansion and exact wording were lifted from the Annwn version of 
Bob Kanefsky's "Black Flag" parody, so there may be slight variations from 
the original.)


And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space
Lift up your mugs and cheer
We'll put the Terrans in their place
We're Vilani privateers

Full three thousand years and more we owned all these suns
'Till the bloody Terrans barged right in and put us on the run
But not all have bended knee, some of us are roaming free
A hidden fight that's the key, fought with blade and gun

(Chorus)
And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space
Lift up your mugs and cheer
We'll put the Terrans in their place
We're Vilani privateers
With the plasma beams burning blue
We'll burn that freighter through and through
Take the ship and kill the crew
Beware the flaming eye

Now some try to change their fate with money no longer theirs
And others try to awe by putting on stately airs
But nothing can change the fate
Of peasant or of potentate
Out the lock they go, for no one really cares

(Chorus)

We hear they're hunting us, we think that's OK
We're all itching for the chance to blow traitors away
The Terran Navy, it's to laugh
It's Vilani hulls, by more than half
We know the tricks of the battle staff, and quietly slip away

(Chorus)

It's "target lo! hard a' port, making for the jumping line"
Of escorts or Q ship tricks there isn't any sign
We'll cut that freighter's hull apart
And sell off all the useful parts
Including all the crewmens' hearts, if we make market on time

(Chorus)

And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space . . .

(Instrumental)

And we sell the loot
And we sell our slaves
Awash in riches we party on for days
Then the Captain calls us all back on board
The patrols are getting closer
Our war goes on even as we get old
It won't end until I'm good and dead and cold
Even then I'll live on in my comrades' eyes
Or as a meal, our shugulli's real
And he's already come to look me over

(slowly)
And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space . . .

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.192354.1u3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEEDDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> >> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were 
> "boiled" off.
> >
> > Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
> > a nitpick.
> 
> I was going by the figures in the post I was responding to, which had a
> higher density listed for Mercury.

No, they didn't. I quoted 5.43 for Mercury, 5.52 for Earth.

Regds

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:34:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:34:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20417.014121.1p5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
>> There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes are for
>> mesons that are *not* in motion.
>
> They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half of the
> original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has elapsed, 1/4 decay in
> the next half-life period, 1/8 in the half-life after that, etc.

Also, 1/4 decay in *half* the half-life. And 1/8 decay in half of
*that*. Etc.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:35:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:35:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416222132.009fa690@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20417.024825.4W7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>         I appreciate the comments of everyone who has replied to my initial 
> post.  I gather that sandcasters would work best
> against optical wavelengths and might require a lot of sand, but are not 
> entirely infeasible.  Particle beams and X-ray lasers appear to be another 
> kettle of fish entirely.  Years ago, before the internet, before I knew 
> anyone besides myself might be interested in space combat, I checked out a 
> copy of The Effects of Nuclear Weapons.  In it I found some interesting 
> tables on the 1/2 value thickness of various material versus various forms 
> of radiaton.  The 1/2 value thickness for X-rays was approximately 20 grams 
> per square cm for heavy metals.  But that was for a solid plate of 
> iron.  If the beam had to pass through a long distance (a few hundred 
> meters) would that make any difference?  I am wondering if a long 
> scattering distance would reduce the required density.

Actually, as long as there are 20 grams of heavy metal in a 1 cm square
column between you and the x-ray source, it still work. Doesn't matter
if the column is 1 mm tall or 1 km tall. 

That's how the atmosphere can shield from x-rays. It's not very dense,
but there's a *lot* of it. 

Ditto for how smoke blocks sight. It's a bunch of *really* fine
particles. Not much density, but there are so many that any light
trying to get to you from the other side always runs into a particle. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:47:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:47:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 18:28:14 GMT Daylight Time, 
texasredshift@hotmail.com writes:


> At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
> Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
> judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
> 
> Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
> Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?
> 
> What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?
> 
> Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
> 

I have to say that in MTU (and I make no claim that this is transferable to 
anyone elses) there is no such thing as Imperial law in the sense of 
statutes. Instead all decisions are driven by the precedent of rulings by 
Emperors, or their legitimate servants, on the same (or similar) subjects. 

The role of lawyers is to argue precedent or to force the passage of decision 
up the hierarchy of courts until precedent is set. Theoretically the final 
arbiter is the current Emperor, who can set new precedents or overturn old 
ones. Practically the Emperor delegates this role to selected nobles and to 
the moot except in exceptional circumstances.

My courts apply the same burden of proof in both civil and criminal cases, in 
my case "on the balance of probabilities" rather than "beyond reasonable 
doubt". Juries are not a recognised concept and instead panels of nobles 
ranging from one to the entire moot, depending on the case, make decisions 
after hearing argument. It does not take a genius to work out that the system 
is highly open to abuse.

There is no real distinction between civil and criminal law at the Imperial 
level. Instead all cases are treated in the same way and dealt with through 
the same channels. The main difference is that in some cases precedent holds 
that the court should appoint Imperial investigators to gather evidence. In 
other cases the burden of investigation lies entirely with the litigant. 
 
Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 18:28:14 GMT Daylight Time, texasredshift@hotmail.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">At the base of this topic is one key issue:&nbsp; How litigous is the Imperium?<BR>
Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?&nbsp; Or are lawsuits rare and<BR>
judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?<BR>
<BR>
Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?<BR>
Is jury trial available?&nbsp; Are judges elected? Appointed?<BR>
<BR>
What does canon have to say on this?&nbsp; What do you have to say?<BR>
<BR>
Bill Scheets aka "Tex"<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I have to say that in MTU (and I make no claim that this is transferable to anyone elses) there is no such thing as Imperial law in the sense of statutes. Instead all decisions are driven by the precedent of rulings by Emperors, or their legitimate servants, on the same (or similar) subjects. <BR>
<BR>
The role of lawyers is to argue precedent or to force the passage of decision up the hierarchy of courts until precedent is set. Theoretically the final arbiter is the current Emperor, who can set new precedents or overturn old ones. Practically the Emperor delegates this role to selected nobles and to the moot except in exceptional circumstances.<BR>
<BR>
My courts apply the same burden of proof in both civil and criminal cases, in my case "on the balance of probabilities" rather than "beyond reasonable doubt". Juries are not a recognised concept and instead panels of nobles ranging from one to the entire moot, depending on the case, make decisions after hearing argument. It does not take a genius to work out that the system is highly open to abuse.<BR>
<BR>
There is no real distinction between civil and criminal law at the Imperial level. Instead all cases are treated in the same way and dealt with through the same channels. The main difference is that in some cases precedent holds that the court should appoint Imperial investigators to gather evidence. In other cases the burden of investigation lies entirely with the litigant. <BR>
 <BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:48:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:48:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <20417.014121.1p5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net> <20417.014121.1p5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020418082417.B31848@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Also, 1/4 decay in *half* the half-life. And 1/8 decay in half of
> *that*. Etc.

A minor quibble -- 30% decay in the first half of the half life, and
16% decay in 1/4 of the half-life.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:49:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:49:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F169fBi0SHfgcSoVW04000117c4@hotmail.com> from "Sam D" at Apr 17, 2002 02:39:00 PM
Message-ID: <200204172127.g3HLRW601938@localhost.uia.net>

> Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to 
> enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?
> 
> This concept is pretty palatable in the US, because there has to be 
> jurisdiction for a court to hear a case and due process is constitutionally 
> guaranteed.  But is that necessarily the case in the Imperium?

I'm not sure how exactly this would tie in to Traveller, however, there
is a strange situation which has cropped up recently with NAFTA (the
north american free trade agreement). Apparently, there's a section
which states that if nation A (or a jurisdiction thereof) passes a
law which impinges upon the profits (or future profitability) of a
company based in nation B but doing business in nation A, then the
company can sue nation A. The real trick is that this doesn't go
to a court of nation A or nation B. Instead, it goes to a private
three-judge tribunal, one judge appointed from each nation, and
the third judge (the chairman of the tribunal) being appointed by
both. Their proceedings are secret (no reporters allowed), and they
routinely hand out multi-million dollar judgements.

As just one recent example, there's a gasoline additive formerly
used in California which helps oxygenate the gas and helps it
burn more cleanly. However, the stuff is toxic, and one drop
getting into the groundwater can ruin acres of water. So California
decided to phase the stuff out. However, the Canadian company that
produces it cried foul, sued through NAFTA, and if my understanding
is correct, the 3-judge tribunal sided with them.

The reason the US wanted this special tribunal in place is because
we don't trust the Mexican courts, however, we've already used the
same tactic against Mexico. Again, if my understanding is correct,
an American company paid kickbacks to some officials in the
Mexican government to obtain a permit to use a certain area of
their land as a waste dump (not sure if it's a toxic dump or what).
Anyway, so the locals got angry and passed a local ordinance to
stop what the company was doing. So the company sued Mexico through
NAFTA and won.

From what little I've read, the Mexicans are unhappy about this
whole situation, the Canadians are uneasy, and the USA is a bit
conflicted, some people claiming that private business should not
have to shoulder the costs of environmental protection while others
point out that in the first example, if the company producing the
gasoline additive were based in the USA, it would not have been able
to sue California for passing a law to phase out the additive, but
because the company was Canadian, it could sue through NAFTA, the
net result being that foreign companies have more rights than
domestic. So basically, NAFTA seems to make it better to do business
abroad than to do business at home, and it also makes it much more
difficult for politicians to pass environmentally protective laws
because of the potential legal/financial ramification brought by
foreign companies who's nations are signators to the treaty.

How all this relates to Traveller, I'm not sure. It may be that
worlds will use a system of treaties and joint tribunals to
negotiate their legal disputes. However, because of the canonical
existence of the nobility and the existance of subsector and sector
government, I would tend to find it more likely that there would
be a level to the Imperial judicial system which supercedes the
authority of nation-worlds. This is a bit tricky, because it takes
some degree of sovereignty away from individual worlds, so how
exactly one would draw the lines is an interesting question.
Somebody should really write a book or article focusing on the
Imperial legal system, preferably somebody already well versed in
International Law, but also mindful of, say, late Roman history
or whatever society people would consider analogous to the Imperial
model.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:51:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:51:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417010106.E5149279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204180015090.24858-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Stephen Tempest writes:

>Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Somewhere around 1,500 quadrillions would be my guess (15 trillion people
with an average of Cr10,000).

Andrew Jackson wirtes:

>Hm...my figure seems to be at 103PCr/year, which is well within the margin of
>error.  Of course, there's a fairly significant problem with the old Atlas of
>the Imperium data -- there's only around 9,000 imperial worlds, not the 11,000
>there's supposed to be.

Do you mean 9,000 systems rather than the 10,000 there's supposed to be?
IIRC the figures are 11,000 worlds in 10,000 systems, implying quite a lot
of systems with multiple worlds (But don't ask me to back this up with a
quote, I've no idea where I got that notion). I admit that we've seen
precious little evidence of multiple worlds elsewhere in canon (But when I
get around to doing my planned writeup of Deneb, I'm going to change
that).


Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:53:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:53:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417010106.E5149279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417165617.00a9ea90@mail.pi.se>

Hello everyone!

>Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

<snip>

>Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
>that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
>An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
>perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
>planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
>come up eventually.

There is a simple way to make planets more dense without changing the basic 
composition. Bigger terrestrial worlds will have higher density because of 
compression, which is far more effective for bigger bodies. Just adding 
more rock will make the rock more dense.

Earth has a compressed density higher than Mercury, but the uncompressed 
density is considerably less. If a planet had the composition of Mercury 
and the radius of Earth, which potentially could happen in an decently 
iron-rich inner system with a major collision between two large rocky 
worlds, that planet would have even greater density than Mercury has, say, 
somewhere between 6 and 6.5. If a world with the composition of Earth is 
50% greater in radius it also would likely have higher density than Earth.

On the other hand, if we think of an Earth-size world with the composition 
of Mars, it would still have a density of say, 4.5 to 5. I'd argue a more 
common problem in RPGs is that densities for Earth-like worlds are too low. 
(Big world with low density to generate decent gravity-style.)

If we list some solar system bodies, with the compressed density first and 
the uncompressed density afterwards:

Mercury 5.4     5.3
Venus   5.2     4.3
Earth           5.5     4.5
Moon            3.3     3.2
Mars            3.9     3.8

Incidentally, this also means that the GURPS divisions into say, "low-iron" 
and "medium-iron" worlds is rather non-useful for terrestrial worlds of 
differing sizes than Earth.

When it comes to high densities, superjovians, brown dwarves and red dwarf 
stars are other examples of where a 100D-radius may be considerably 
different from a version based on tidal differential force. A small red 
dwarf star can have a density 50-100 times higher than the Sun - or any 
material on Earth, for that matter. A medium-size brown dwarf more than a 
billion years old could easily have a density several times greater than 
Earths average.

> > The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> > much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
>Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
>in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
>superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

A possible other reason is that Mercury experienced, just like Earth, major 
impacts which blew off quite a deal of the surface.

When it comes to hot superjovians, their escape velocity due to high 
gravity is enough to keep gasses from escaping. Those gas giants 
will  probably be bigger in radii than normal outer system gas giants can 
be, because of the energy they receive from the star. There was a nice 
paper on 51 Pegasi's inner planet, but I can't find it right now. If anyone 
is interested, mail me off-list and I'll provide the link when I find it...

>Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
>message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
>need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
>all.

I believe emphasis has its points, but emphasizing too many words, say one 
in ten, makes posts difficult to read without reading in a "tone" of the 
post. I usually overemphasize like _this_ far too often. ,-)

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:54:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:54:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20417.024825.4W7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019073068.7515.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Actually, as long as there are 20 grams of heavy metal in a 1 cm square
> column between you and the x-ray source, it still work. Doesn't matter
> if the column is 1 mm tall or 1 km tall. 

Doesn't really need to be heavy metal, heavy elements are a bit better, but the
difference is not terribly impressive.  However, a really thick barrier might
reduce the ability to penetrate armor by refraction, not sure to what degree
X-rays can be refracted without being absorbed.

20g/cm^2 sounds a bit high for typical x-rays, though.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:55:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:55:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
 <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417154328.0227e168@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:20 PM 4/16/2002, Stephen Tempest wrote:
>Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Yes, many years ago.  The figure was derived from the old DGP sector files 
using CT (Striker and TCS) figures.  I had MCr 219,474,958,700 for the 
Gross Imperial Product.  SO, no - the Imperium could not (in a million 
years) afford to build a jump-capable planet.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:56:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:56:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters (2nd try)
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417224940.00aac690@mail.pi.se>

Hello everyone!

>Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

<snip>

>Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
>that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
>An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
>perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
>planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
>come up eventually.

There is a simple way to make planets more dense without changing the basic 
composition. Bigger terrestrial worlds will have higher density because of 
compression, which is far more effective for bigger bodies. Just adding 
more rock will make the rock more dense.

Earth has a compressed density higher than Mercury, but the uncompressed 
density is considerably less. If a planet had the composition of Mercury 
and the radius of Earth, which potentially could happen in an decently 
iron-rich inner system with a major collision between two large rocky 
worlds, that planet would have even greater density than Mercury has, say, 
somewhere between 6 and 6.5. If a world with the composition of Earth is 
50% greater in radius it also would likely have higher density than Earth.

On the other hand, if we think of an Earth-size world with the composition 
of Mars, it would still have a density of say, 4.5 to 5. I'd argue a more 
common problem in RPGs is that densities for Earth-like worlds are too low. 
(Big world with low density to generate decent gravity-style.)

If we list some solar system bodies, with the compressed density first and 
the uncompressed density afterwards:

Mercury 5.4     5.3
Venus   5.2     4.3
Earth           5.5     4.5
Moon            3.3     3.2
Mars            3.9     3.8

Incidentally, this also means that the GURPS divisions into say, "low-iron" 
and "medium-iron" worlds is rather non-useful for terrestrial worlds of 
differing sizes than Earth.

When it comes to high densities, superjovians, brown dwarves and red dwarf 
stars are other examples of where a 100D-radius may be considerably 
different from a version based on tidal differential force. A small red 
dwarf star can have a density 50-100 times higher than the Sun - or any 
material on Earth, for that matter. A medium-size brown dwarf more than a 
billion years old could easily have a density several times greater than 
Earths average.

> > The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> > much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
>Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
>in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
>superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

A possible other reason is that Mercury experienced, just like Earth, major 
impacts which blew off quite a deal of the surface.

When it comes to hot superjovians, their escape velocity due to high 
gravity is enough to keep gasses from escaping. Those gas giants 
will  probably be bigger in radii than normal outer system gas giants can 
be, because of the energy they receive from the star. There was a nice 
paper on 51 Pegasi's inner planet, but I can't find it right now. If anyone 
is interested, mail me off-list and I'll provide the link when I find it...

>Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
>message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
>need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
>all.

I believe emphasis has its points, but emphasizing too many words, say one 
in ten, makes posts difficult to read without reading in a "tone" of the 
post. I usually overemphasize like _this_ far too often. ,-)

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:57:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:57:22 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020416222702.02624008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3CBDD666.1080706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> At 02:40 PM 4/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>> William Lane wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the 
>>> list. to
>>> everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off 
>>> topic
>>> info.
>>
>>
>> That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
>> XML to Cobol and back...
> 
> 
> 
> Way cool!  Can I add this to my Traveller Maintenance Blues page?
> <http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html> 
> 
> 
Why surely!

Hey everybody...this is blanket permission to put anything I write here 
on your web sites, if you want.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:58:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:58:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F18T2Y89RdrUnR65Cbk00002a25@hotmail.com>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Sam D writes:
> > Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to
> > enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign 
>judgments?
>
>No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
>difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in 
>state
>courts work.

I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home turf, 
because that is the only place you can collect.  That should discourage 
litigation, and make a lot of lawyers rich with asset protection seminars.  
Maybe some worlds would become big Switzerlands where the wealthy hide their 
dough.

So I guess you would sue free traders where there ship is registered, 
because that is where title would be?  Then how do you actually get 
possession if other worlds are free to ignore the judgments of other worlds?

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:58:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Marsh)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:58:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <F53kOhpWL26mtgK3jca000025a8@hotmail.com>

Just to muddy the waters a bit. I am not so sure that the ovaries are that 
more sensitive to radiation than, say, testes but that a womans lifetime 
supply of egg cells are produced at the onset of puberty and the ovaries is 
the time released delivery system. The older the woman the older the eggs. 
This is unlike the testes which make em fresh as they go.

The woman's eggs are more sensitive in that the older the eggs the longer 
the possible exposure to radioactivity over the years.

However, I would think all things being equal a woman's ovaries being 
internal vs testes being external would make the man's reproductive cells 
more prone to radiation induced errors.

ObTrav: Perhaps on a world where there was a high background level of 
radiation there might exist a market for healthy donor eggs from another 
planet.


>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: Re: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:25:31 +0300 (EEST)
>
>On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, David P. Summers wrote:
> > Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can
> > easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the
> > skin (or more than a meter or two of air).
>
>Hm, don't alpha particles have even less range than beta? I remember
>something like centimeter scale ranges in air.
>
>Of course, they won't penetrate the skin. Still, if you get them into your
>body, they are mighty dangerous: the heavier the particle, the greater the
>damage. (Alpha particles are helium nuclei, that is, two protons and two
>neutrons, and about 8000 times more massive than electrons which make up
>beta radiation.)
>
>--
>Mikko Parviainen
>"I quote signatures."
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


th

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:59:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:59:44 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020417.130803.-189643.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 08:39:43 -0700 Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> At 09:16 AM 4/17/02 +1000, you wrote:
> 
> >Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
> >are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
> >pointy stick :)
> 
> Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future leader 
> of men?  :P
> 
> Douglas E. Berry 

Nah, he's just a Butter Bar wanna be.

Like Lt. Gorman in Aliens

Hey Top, you take the men in, I'll just watch the camera's, and make sure
my boots don't get scuffed, oh, and once your in the meat grinder I'll be
here to lead you out.

Yes Sir, were on it. Vasquez you take point.


Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:00:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:00:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEICCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Pions can be created by the collision of matter and antimatter.
The creation time can be tightly controlled.  So the start point
for acceleration to relativistic speeds is therefore controlled.

It requires far less handwaving than that required for plasma/fusion
weapons.

Neither of the latter can produce a "bolt" of plasma that
can fly downrange, in air or in vacuum.  No guide beams, etc, 
are going to help.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:01:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:01:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204170923130.29728-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204170923130.29728-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8e39ddf9659@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:25 AM +0300 4/17/02, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, David P. Summers wrote:
>>  Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can
>>  easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the
>>  skin (or more than a meter or two of air).
>
>Hm, don't alpha particles have even less range than beta? I remember
>something like centimeter scale ranges in air.

Yeah.

>
>Of course, they won't penetrate the skin. Still, if you get them into your
>body, they are mighty dangerous: the heavier the particle, the greater the
>damage. (Alpha particles are helium nuclei, that is, two protons and two
>neutrons, and about 8000 times more massive than electrons which make up
>beta radiation.)

Energy is how heavy and how fast.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:02:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:02:32 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <20416.215513.5m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.215513.5m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8e39e6db7f9@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:55 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 1:28 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in
>>>   > near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near
>>>>   misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a
>>>>   single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?
>>>
>>>We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
>>>outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.
>>
>>  We are looking.  There is a program underway to catalog Earth
>>  crossing asteroids....
>
>Yes, but they are looking for the *big* ones, not the measly little
>hundred meter jobs. Detecting those would be nice, but if one hit it
>wouldn't be much worse than a big nuke.

Well, as you say, they would look for them if they could, so the 
original issue is we look for what we can see is valid.....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:03:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:03:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20417.014254.3E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20417.014254.3E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8e39f21e24f@[143.232.119.186]>

>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 7:00 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>   > The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also
>>>>   true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to
>>>>   another will depend on how far apart they are.
>>>
>>>You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
>>>depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
>>>ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
>>>forces).
>>
>>  I'm not sure what force you are talking about.  The force on any one
>>  part of the ship is the force of gravity.  Tidal forces are the
>>  relative difference in forces between different parts of an object.
>
>The "tidal forces" are due to a combination of gravity *and* motion.
>
>Remember, the ship is assumed to be in "free fall" (ie freely
>responding to gravity in some sort of orbit) when you figure the tidal
>acceleration due to the body the ship is orbiting (Note: I'm using
>"orbit" loosely, to include things like parabolic and hyperbolic
>trajectories)
>
>The "tidal forces" are due to differences in the strength of the
>primary's field and due to the motion of the ship in it's orbit.
>
>The magnitude of the forces depends not on the size of the *orbiting*
>body, but on the distance from the center of mass of that body, and
>what direction you are from the center relative to the line connecting
>primary and satellite.
>
>So, at a given distance from earth, the tidal forces at the center of
>mass of a ship due to Earth will be *zero*. At they will increase as
>you move away from that point. The direction and magnitude of the
>forces depends on the distance from that center and upon the direction
>relative to the line joining that point to the center of the Earth.
>
>Anything "attached" to the ship is subject to those forces.
>
>The forces will be the same at 100 meters in a given direction from the
>center of the ship whether the ship is a tiny scout with a pole
>sticking out in that direction or or 1 km long ship with that point
>being inside the ship.
>
>Secondary effects due to the mass distribution of the ship will modify
>those forces. But it's not the "size" of the ship per se that
>determines the strength or direction of the forces.

Motion has nothing to do with it.  If you take a ship and hold it 
stationary wrt the planetary body it will still encounter tidal 
forces.  If you had so much thrust that you could hold you ship 
stationary near a black hole, tidal forces can still tear the ship 
apart (and/or squeeze it together).

Lets look at this more generally.  Gravity changes with distance. 
That means that things that are at different spots experience 
different gravitational forces.  If these things are different 
objects, then their forces due to gravity (and their accelerations) 
are just different.

If these things are part of a rigid object, they can't have different 
accelerations and forces occur trying to pull the object apart (along 
the axis toward the body, it get squeezed together along the 
perpendicular axis).  This is the tidal force (or on aspect of it, it 
can also turn objects around, etc).  The bigger the object is, the 
further the different parts are apppart, the bigger the differences 
in the force of gravity, the  greater the tidal force is.

You are also being loose with the difference between tidal forces and 
tidal acceleration.  Different forces would produce different 
accelerations in different parts of the body if they weren't 
compensated by internal forces in the body (unless it is within the 
Roche limit and the body breaks up).

Getting to the original point.  The quantity that is close to being 
an explanation of the 100 diam limit is the gravitational gadient 
(the rate at which the force of gravity changes with distance).  Now 
this is, of course, is directly related to the tidal force (the tidal 
force depends directly on this and the size of an object) so some 
call it a tidal <this or that>.  I happen to think the gravitational 
gradient gives more intuitive feel for what the quantity represents.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:04:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:04:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes (was: Quick Query on US Tax Returns)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEDLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417162722.022054a8@mail.qrc.com>

At 08:31 PM 4/16/2002, Andy Brick wrote:
>ObTrav: What about tax returns in the Imperium?

I've tried various schemes in my Traveller games, and the thing that worked 
best was to ignore it entirely.  Here's the way it works IMTU:

The Imperium collects taxes from member worlds; as part of their 
membership, worlds agree to many things.  This includes the requirement 
that the world will pay taxes to the Imperium based on a percentage of the 
world's assessed Gross Planetary Product (GPP).  Most worlds are taxed at 
about 1% of their GPP; the exact rate may vary from world to world 
depending on the details (for example, a TL-1 world with a barter economy 
may not pay taxes at all).  Special taxes may also be assessed from time to 
time (for example, a war emergency tax); tax relief may also be provided in 
some cases.

The Imperial bureaucracy is responsible for setting tax rates, assessing 
GPPs, and ensuring the money is collected into the treasury.  In general, 
these operations are routine: GPPs are determined by the IISS Imperial 
Grand Survey and are generally well-known; world governments remit their 
taxes and the Imperial government has funds with which to 
function.  Enforcement (and the settlement of disputes) is the 
responsibility of the Imperial Nobility, who may be able to set policy 
(depending on their status and area of responsibility) and can call on 
Imperial resources (Navy, Marines, Army) to enforce it.

Individual citizens are not responsible for any taxes to the Imperium; 
there is no per-capita or personal income tax at the Imperial 
level.  Planet-bound corporations also do not pay Imperial taxes.  However, 
member worlds are free to tax their corporations and residents however they 
see fit; different worlds have different policies, and probably every tax 
or revenue-generation scheme that has ever been conceived is in operation 
somewhere in the Imperium.  Different worlds may have different ideas about 
who can be taxed (many worlds, particularly those with sealed environments, 
levy a tax on everyone who visits the world).

Active Imperial military, starship crews, and other travellers who do not 
generally reside on any particular planet do not generally pay 
taxes.  Some, who wish to retain citizenship on a particular world, will 
pay taxes anyway and may even participate in other civic responsibilities 
(voting, civil service, etc.) in absentia.

Imperial corporations (that is, interstellar corporations with an Imperial 
charter) do not pay taxes to any world, nor do they pay taxes to the 
Imperium.  However, long-standing custom dictates that when a corporation 
is granted an Imperial charter, the company gives the Imperial family a 
gift of small fraction (typically around 1%) of it's shares.  Many Imperial 
corporations, particularly those who are not otherwise owned or backed by 
nobles, also give smaller numbers of shares to other important nobles in 
their area of operations.

Thus, while taxes can be a motivating factor for political or economic 
events in my Traveller universe, they are not generally something that the 
PC's have to worry about (unless, of course, they happen to be outside of 
the starport extrality fence on New Hong Kong for Tax Notification Day).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:05:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:05:12 2002
Subject: [TML] The L-E Digest?
References: <F82qi8VjUwZcSlVviFl0000bd6b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBDF4DC.391C2BC0@premier.net>


Jeff Rowse wrote:
> 
>>snip>>
> 
> Jeff.
> "Who ordered the Meat Feast with extra Bantha?" - Pizza the Hutt.

In reference to your .sig file, check this page from BBspot:

http://bbspot.com/News/2002/04/before.html

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:07:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:07:23 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20416.220459.6d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net> <20416.220459.6d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020418082212.A31848@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?
...
> You want it because you were making such a fuss about not being able
> to use oxygen to convert methane to water and CO2 because you'd lose
> the oxygen if you threw away the CO2.

I did.  That doesn't mean I want to have a special LOX tank just in
case I can find hydrogen but not water.  Most of the time I'm going to
be buying water from the starport I'm docked at.  Most of the rest of
the time, I'll be getting it from iceballs or seas.  That's much safer
than gas giant skimming, if nothing else.  In a desperate situation, I
*might* come across a system that has a gas giant but no water.  (The
only plausible cases I can think of involve a gas giant inside the
star's 100D limit) In that case I can still skim hydrogen gas and
process it into the LHyd tank for a 1-parsec jump.  If there is any
water in the GG atmosphere (likely if there is no water elsewhere), I
can collect that too, diffuse though it may be.

In short, I don't need (nor want) LOX.  I don't need (nor want) to
burn methane.  I want *water*.


> Also, what version of Traveller are you running? Most version have jump
> fuel being the majority of the tankage?

GT, but I did the same in MT.  It is *my* Traveller universe, after
all.


> Only if the *mass* of the ship doesn't matter in your TU.

By and large, it doesn't.  In the OTU either.

The single overwhelming factor in determining the running cost of a
ship is the mortgage.  The single overwhelming factor within that is
the cost of jump drives, which depend entirely on *volume*.


> Only at the cost of *not* being able to refuel by scopping at a gas
> giant. The atmosphere is 90%+ hydrogen.

That just means you need to spend a bit longer scooping for the other
stuff, a time which in itself is relatively minor compared to the time
taken to get to and from a gas giant's 100D limit.  But why perform
that dangerous maneuver at all when you've got almost always got
lovely little microgravity water sources nowhere near so deep into a
100D limit?


> No, but you can't use the water for drinking,

I can after I remove the ammonia.


> and it needs special handling as ammonia water is corrosive.

Scary.  You were talking about hundreds of tons of cryogenic LH2.
Ever looked up the MSDS for that?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:11:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:11:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Bomb pumped lasers - was Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20020416221003.EBEC727A30@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16xlxZ-00044d-0W@anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net>

> I seem to recall something about X-ray lasers being developed, but they're not
> exactly weapons-grade.  The old SDI people talked about bomb-pumped X-ray
> lasers, a mechanism which AFAIK has never been successfully demonstrated, not
> that this prevent people from using it in SF.

So how theoretical or handwavium are bomb-pumped lasers? Is it just that we haven't developed the technology to successfully produce them, or is it that they're physically not possible?

Rob.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:12:07 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OF8A9C8510.72B94182-ON85256B9D.004D468D@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBD717E.1040301@magpiesnest.co.uk>

William Lane wrote:

 >
 >>> has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a
 >>> line at wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.
 >>>
 >
 >> Certainly have Bill (though now I tend to use JAXP, which is
 >> based around
 >>
 > Xerces but has differences). Send me your >questions and I will do
 >  my best to answer them for you.
 >
 > Here is what im doing im developing a java application that reads
 > an xml file and parses it into 3 seperate COBOL data files. the
 > cobol group eventually runs their apps and uses the data from
 > these flat files. once they are through they send them back to
 > me. i then want to parse these 3 files into a single new xml file.
 >
 > i have gotten to where i am creating the new document. i can append 
children on it ect.. ect..
 >
 > however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to 
actually be
 > written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im new to XML 
and Xerces
 > is not the best documented thing i have ever worked with. i was 
looking at
 > maybe using the serializer to send a outPutStream through it. but 
it would
 > seem to me that xerces should have a way of building this document 
out on
 > the drive.
 >
IMHO, the Serializer is the best bet because it will control the data 
structure better than writing direct to a FileOutputStream



-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk

 > > children on it ect.. ect..
 >
 > however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to
 > actually be written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im
 >  new to XML and Xerces is not the best documented thing i have
 > ever worked with. i was looking at maybe using the serializer to
 > send a outPutStream through it. but it would seem to me that
 > xerces should have a way of building this document out on the
 > drive.
 >
IMHO, the Serializer is the best bet because it will control the data 
structure better than writing direct to a FileOutputStream (although 
you can certainly do that if you like). The thing to remember is that 
when it is built an XML file is simply an ordinary text file with an 
".xml" extension instead of a ".txt" extension.

What I tend to do is use the DocumentFactory to create a new XML 
document, pile in the data by adding the nodes one by one, then grab 
the file I want to create (or update), delete the original (because 
its easier than setting a file lock) and write out the new file to the 
same filename. It isn't how it ought to be done, but I find it makes 
life easier.

Probably though, it would be worth your while taking a white paper off 
the www.java.sun.com page and seeing how it "should be" done. That way 
you are not just hacking code the way I do.

-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org> <3CBC9A4C.4000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CBD7023.2090608@magpiesnest.co.uk>

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> William Lane wrote:
> 
>>
>> Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the 
>> list. to
>> everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
>> info.
> 
> 
> That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
> XML to Cobol and back...
> 
> oBTRav> Captain finds engineer hip deep in the Jump drive controller 
> with an exceptionally old-looking piece of hardware in his hands.
> 
> Captain: "Good lord, Scottie! That's a jump *tape* reader! What is that 
> antique doing on my jump drive??"
> 
> Engineer: "Well Captain, we cannae find the right components to rrepair 
> the drive controller. Urgvark" he points to a crazed looking Vargr 
> assistant engineer, "...found this in a antique shop. We're tying it 
> into the saircuit right now."
> 
> C: "But how will we control it? I haven't seen a jump tape in my life 
> that wasn't in a museum!"
> 
> E:"Well Captain, I have a writing head from a holocorder here, we can 
> connect it to the main computer, and have it translate the control 
> instructions from the astrogation program to the correct patterns that a 
> jump tape would have. It should work, in theory, sah. " Shouts "OK 
> Urgvark! Give me some power..."
> 
> <SNAP> <Pop fsssssshhhhhh> "Turn it off! Turn it off!"
> 
> E: Through the smoke..."Ahh captain, we're going ta need some morrre 
> time..."
> 
> C: weeps.
> 
> 

Keyboard kill !!! And a waste of coffee :(

-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:21:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:21:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
 <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417154328.0227e168@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3CBDFF31.826843F6@premier.net>


Derek Wildstar wrote:
> 
> At 05:20 PM 4/16/2002, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> >Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?
> 
> Yes, many years ago.  The figure was derived from the old DGP sector files
> using CT (Striker and TCS) figures.  I had MCr 219,474,958,700 for the
> Gross Imperial Product.  SO, no - the Imperium could not (in a million
> years) afford to build a jump-capable planet.

Not even if they cashed in Betty Shugili (r) points from boxtops of
Groatburger Helper (r)? ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F18T2Y89RdrUnR65Cbk00002a25@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019084922.7419.ajackson@ping>

Sam D writes:
> >
> >No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
> >difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in 
> >state
> >courts work.
> 
> I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home turf, 
> because that is the only place you can collect.

Nah, if the defendant has a local office (sales outlet, whatever) you can sue
the local unit.

> So I guess you would sue free traders where there ship is registered, 
> because that is where title would be?  Then how do you actually get 
> possession if other worlds are free to ignore the judgments of other
> worlds? 

Well, as long as the free trader never visits the port where the judgement
against it was made, no problem.  If you ever visit that port, they can impound
your ship.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:24:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:24:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>

At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
>that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)

Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  Can 
I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
minds of men? I don't think so!

I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                     -Adam West, as Batman 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020418093454.A32118@freeman.little-possums.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!

Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
best minds in medical science?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020418095314.B32118@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Please contact Los Alamos and inform them that the meson accelerator
> that they have been using since 1968 is a fake.

I think you'll find that their mesons are *charged*, and furthermore
are moving at a really good clip when they are created.


> It sends beams of mesons out without irradiating the accelerator.

I bet it does.  It just doesn't induce significant amounts of
radioactivity in the walls of the beam tube.  Besides which, the
*density* of energy release is much greater in the target region
because the mesons collide with stuff, not decay there.


> The only items that become "hot" are in the target area.  Please
> explain how that is done.

It's pretty simple.  Pi mesons interact quite strongly with matter.
When the (remaining) mesons reach the target area, they don't "decay"
there.  They *collide*.  Collision products (and secondary products)
include a whole zoo of particles, and a few odd isotopes many of which
are radioactive with significant half-lives.

This is very different from the description of meson guns in
Traveller.  Traveller meson move unimpeded through matter, have
lifetimes instead of half-lives, and those lifetimes can be controlled
to within one part per trillion.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 18:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 17:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CBE0CC8.5010706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the 
>> fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
> 
> 
> Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
> injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  
> Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud 
> the minds of men? I don't think so!
> 
> I want my money (along with my spleen) back.
> 

But you got that back, didn't you?

Maybe that's the super power...'Grows Spleens'.

Nobody ever said it would be a GOOD superpower...;-P

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 17:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <3CBE0CC8.5010706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAGEIOCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Bruce and Doug complain about their lack of superpowers
<snip>

How do you think I feel?  I've straddled many a
thermonuclear warhead, in the forlorn hopes that
something would happen (super mutant children, for
one).

Nothing!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <p04330106b8e3cd72c219@[143.232.119.186]>

>At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the 
>>fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
>
>Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and 
>even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead 
>tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not 
>even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>
>I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that 
gets powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an 
"accident", so maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but 
whether it was "accidental".  :-)

(Though I wonder, how do you know you don't have any super powers? 
Have you _tried_ to change the course of a might river?)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <20020418093454.A32118@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417180901.009fd010@mindspring.com>

At 09:34 AM 4/18/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
> > Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> > tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> > even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>
>Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
>best minds in medical science?

That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm 
going to sue somebody.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:26:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20417.015559.9o2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFADPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi

> Also, the post I was replying to had the wrong density for Mercury, and
> had it being denser than earth. I didn't check my references until
> someone pointed out the error.

You were replying to my post, and the densities were correct there.

> The sort of normalcy I'm talking about is based soely on elemental
> abundances and the way a cloud of dust and gas collapses to form
> planets.

<lots of snippage>

> So only systems with *really* skewed elemental abundances will have
> worlds with densities much higher than Earth's. Or other *really* weird
> situations. The pulsatr planets, rocky planets that are insanely close
> to their primary (work out what would be left of Earth after a few
> billion years at 0.1 AU from the sun, for example). etc.

Well, since no-one yet fully understands the exact mechanisms by which said
cloud collapses, and since no one has yet surveyed any solar system in
detail other than our own, I'd say you were making some pretty big
assumptions about what is normal and what isn't. In addition, whilst
universal elemental abundances may in part define the mean abundance for a
given element in a given solar system, you will get local variations.
Finally, I was not looking at "really skewed" densities - I was looking at a
margin increase in the density of a terrestrial planet to 6g/cc or higher. I
would expect the densities of pulsar planets etc to be much higher than
that.

BTW, as an aside, Red Dwarfs display similar relative elemental abundances
to the Sun, but are many , many times denser.

> But that just showed that orbits weren't as stable as we thought, and
> that large bodies might form close to where the star did.

Not quite my point - this showed planets with volatile gases could survive
in the inner system, which previously had not been thought common nor
"normal". This in turn implies that your basis for "normalcy", i.e. our
solar system, may not be as normal as you think.

> They are still gas giants in most respects.

Off topic a bit this, but Superjovians are not mere gas giants, at least not
in the Jupiter/Saturn/etc sense. They are much larger (though still somewhat
short of Brown Dwarf status), and in these systems they are heated
considerably by virtue of the proximity to their primary.

> Thing is, if it wasn't rare, we'd see more variation in densities of
> objects in this system. Only bodies that get that dense are asteroid
> fragments.

Nonsense. As I am trying to get across to you, you cannot take this solar
system and assume that all other solar systems will be pretty much the same.
This bias is, in fact, a major gripe of mine with Traveller world generation
systems - they are very good at generating systems very similar to our own
but not so good at generating systems which aren't. You are taking a very
Sol-centric view of the universe.

What you are suggesting makes as much sense as examining one species of
insect, say a butterfly, and then assuming that all other species of insect
are very similar if not identical - when in fact they are not.

> The problem is managing to collect all that iron and then get *rid* of
> all the *rock* that had to accumulate with it.

One word - collision. Check out my earlier mail re the formation of the
Earth Moon system by collision with a body roughly equal to Mars. All of the
Moon is formed from the "rocky layer" of both protoplanets. Make the
impactor larger, and hey presto, more rocky material is knocked off into
space, leaving the cohesive core behind.

And collisions are very common early in the history of an accreting cloud,
after all.

> Rules of thumb are expected to work *most* of the time. and that's all
> the 100 diameter limit is.

Exactly - it's a rule of thumb. So don't bother trying to generate an exact
or precise derivation for it - you cannot have it both ways - either it's an
inaccurate rule of thumb, or a precise mathematical law. It can't be both.
You say one thing here, and something completely different at the end of
your mail.

> Sorry, but emphasis can change the meaning of a sentence. And convey
> extra meaning.

Sure. If used sparingly, and only where necessary.

> Harder for *you*, maybe. You are the only person I've ever heard make
> such an argument. And I'm far from the only person who uses them.

Not just for me, for many people.

Good netiquette is to make use of emphasis sparingly and only when
necessary. You do not do this. There was no need for example, to emphasise
the word "you" in the above sentence. It would have carried the same meaning
without.

I would suggest also that you read the guidelines for the clearer use of
English, published by the Campaign For Clear English.

> Also, they don't draw my eyes to such words. They modify the emphasis
> as I reach the word. They don't "pull" my eyes on ahead.

Then you read in a most unusual way. Most people I know, including my 5 year
old daughter, read one word at a time for sure, but are drawn to words in a
piece of prose that are highlighted or marked in some manner and will look
at those first. To give an example, my daughter has a book where the
sentence "The chicken laid an egg" has the word "egg" printed in red. This
word is the word that people see first, because it stands out, even if they
then read the sentence normally. To use emphasis on a whim as you do makes
the text distracting and hence harder to read, all with little or no extra
meaning to the reader other than that already available in the content
itself.

> By your argument, I shouldn't use emphasis in speaking either. And
> that's just plain silly.

No, I said that you shouldn't use unnecessary emphasis. There is also a
considerable difference between emphasis in  a block of text (where I can
see all of the emphasised or highlighted words first before I have reached
them) and emphasis in speech (where I have to wait to hear each word in
linear sequence, and cannot therefore be distracted by
future words). The brain is better at detecting difference than conformity,
you see.

> I emphasized it because if I was speaking I'd stress that word. That's
> not being patronizing, that's saying that I consider it very, very
> unlikely. Without resorting to overly awkward phrasing.

Why stop there, then ? Why not use stress markers to indicate which syllable
is stressed, or which sonant ? Why not add "beat" marks for pauses shorter
than commas ? Why not ? Because you don't need to, that's why. The reader is
perfectly capable of adding these details, given the context of the
sentence - it's part of the parsing effort of reading in the first place.
Also, you shouldn't need to resort to awkward phrasing to make a point.

> Work it out for yourself. Any "force" that is the same at X diameters
> (where X <>1) from bodies of different sizes *does* vary by the cube of
> the distance.  That's the way the geometry works. See below.

You missed the point. I don't dispute what you are saying, and I'm sure that
your math is perfectly correct, but you've gone off on a tangent. My
argument was that the 100 diameter rule is probably arbitrary, and given
that densities will certainly vary even if only over a limited range, using
tidal forces makes it no more uniform than any other derivation. Far better
to define a tidal gradient limit or gravitational field strength limit where
the misjump threshold is, and then calculate how many diameters out that is.
At least that way you don't need a mathematical false premise of uniform
densities across all planetary sizes in order to make the derivation fit the
rule. Of course this means that 100D is reduced to a rule of thumb, and the
actual distance varies from say 90 to 110D or whatever, but that makes more
sense.

In fact, making the 100D a rule of thumb probably means that this is a
"safe" threshold, and the actual limit occurs considerably closer, say
50-70D out but rarely higher. That means that 100D is almost always safe,
but usually way off the actual value. Compare with operational and critical
maximum dive depths for submarines, for example - the sub may take 450m of
water, but the manual may set a limit of 375m to be on the safe side.

> Work out the field strength at 100 diameters for size 1 thru 10 planets
> assuming densities similar to that of earth or even Mars. The figures
> are *way* off.

Now try the same with tidal forces where the Mars size planet has a density
equal to that of Mars, and the Earth sized planet has a density equal to
that of the Earth. Do you get the same answer ? No. This only works if all
of the 10 worlds in your calculation have the same density, which makes no
sense. Better to define jump limits in terms of field strengths, tidal force
values, etc, than a distance/number of diameters. Sure the distance will
vary, but the rule is then usable in all situations and is more internally
consistent.

Regards

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] That Traveller Sensation
Message-ID: <200204180138.ELB02368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Watching Forbidden Planet again...
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330106b8e3cd72c219@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417182539.009eb920@mindspring.com>

At 06:13 PM 4/17/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
>>>that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
>>
>>Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
>>injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead 
>>tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not 
>>even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>>
>>I want my money (along with my spleen) back.
>
>Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that gets 
>powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an "accident", so 
>maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but whether it was 
>"accidental".  :-)
>
>(Though I wonder, how do you know you don't have any super powers? Have 
>you _tried_ to change the course of a might river?)

I'm half tempted to say yes, just for the reaction...


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
                          -Chicago reader, 10/15/82


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020417200008.009f3500@mail.attbi.com>

Douglas Berry wrote:
 > Hey! How do you think I feel? I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
 > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
 > tube! Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers? Not
 > even. Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!

	Didn't you get the Control Penguins Power?  I thought you had, or maybe it 
was the Penguin Projection Power .  No, wait, isn't that the Bits project, 
Penguin Projection?  Geez, now I'm really confused. :)
	By the way, I just got my copy of ACQ.  You have been added to the list of 
games I will buy just because of the author's demonstrated competance.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3CBED3F3.19368.F24A04@localhost>

On 17 Apr 2002 at 8:31, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
> >that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
> 
> Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
> injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  Can 
> I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
> minds of men? I don't think so!
> 
> I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

Well I'd suggest re-growing an organ from nothing counts as a super-
power.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <200204171605.EGN07388@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost>

On 17 Apr 2002 at 12:05, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Doug gives advice:
> 
> >>Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
> >>are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
> >>pointy stick :)
> >
> >Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future 
> >leader of men?  :P
> >
> 
> God help them.  I'm almost of the opinion that officers 
> should be enlisted first.  Even academy cadets should 
> complete 2 years before going to the academy.

I'm very definitely of that opinion.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417222045.020ccec0@192.168.0.1>

At 08:31 AM 4/17/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
>>that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
>Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
>injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  Can 
>I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
>minds of men? I don't think so!
>I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

Oh come on...you *are* growing the spleen back.


------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Writing about jazz is like dancing about
architecture" -- Thelonius Monk
------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
In-Reply-To: <3CBDD666.1080706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020416222702.02624008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417222814.00cd62e8@192.168.0.1>

At 01:09 PM 4/17/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>>At 02:40 PM 4/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>William Lane wrote:
>>>>Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
>>>>everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
>>>>info.
>>>That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
>>>XML to Cobol and back...
>>Way cool!  Can I add this to my Traveller Maintenance Blues page?
>><http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html> 
>>
>Why surely!
>Hey everybody...this is blanket permission to put anything I write here on 
>your web sites, if you want.

Thanks!  It's up there now!



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F179u7r4LYhvH67DL5d0000f1ce@hotmail.com>

Anthony Jackson said

> > >No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
> > >difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in
> > >state
> > >courts work.
> >
> > I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home 
>turf,
> > because that is the only place you can collect.
>
>Nah, if the defendant has a local office (sales outlet, whatever) you can 
>sue
>the local unit.

If the defendant is big and has a local offices sure.  You can play games 
with that though, like having every local office as a separate corporation.  
Because the LIC is granted by the Imperium, local courts probably can not 
break through the corporate veil.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
Message-ID: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>

OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm 
getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.


Anything happen while I was gone?

Loren Wiseman

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
In-Reply-To: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8E37F0C.4CC96%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/17/02 7:31 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm
> getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.

done
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417180901.009fd010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEKFGKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

What if your new found super power is something like
"Manipulate Hivers"
"Jump successfully within 100 D"
"Explain why the islands aren't a Protectorate"

You know . . . useful things.

jml
who with a shovel can alter the course of smallish rivulets

>>>>>>>>>>

At 09:34 AM 4/18/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
> > Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> > tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> > even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>
>Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
>best minds in medical science?

That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm 
going to sue somebody.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:42:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:42:05 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
In-Reply-To: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAEEJDCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Loren comes back from the dead:

>Anything happen while I was gone?

Not much. I "do" have a question.

When you first started in on this,
back in the beginning of it all,
did you ever think that decades later,
the same players would endlessly 
discuss "canon" about the things 
you and the others wrote?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:47:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:47:25 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
References: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002b01c1e683$27970f00$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:31 PM
GDWGAMES@aol.com said,

> Anything happen while I was gone?

Just the attack of the Zhodani Penguin elite.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail". - Gore Vidal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:52:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:52:16 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
In-Reply-To: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEKHGKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Oh nothing.

Whistles innocently

Sure is nice weather isn't it

______________________________
Caesar:  I'm so mad, I just have to vent my spleen at someone

Brutus:  (fingering dagger)  Here, let me help

jml
______________________________ 


OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm 
getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.


Anything happen while I was gone?

Loren Wiseman
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEHHCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com>
>
>At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
>Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
>judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
>
>Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
>Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?
>
>What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?

Canon is generally silent on this question.  Milieu Zero posits rather an
intrusive Imperial legal system, but I think it withers over time as the
Imperium expands to the entire extent of the Ziru Sirka, and declines to
impose any but the mildest requirements on member states (calendar, Imperial
credit, abolition of slavery).

The questions you present therefore require answers on two levels: member
states and the Imperium itself.  As to member states, there are 11,000
different answers, so I won't comment further.

The Imperium itself must strike a balance between autocracy and sufficient
rule of law for commerce to function.  Access to the Imperial civil courts
will be limited to matters that involve only Imperial law, such as
interstellar commerce and certain disputes between nobles.

I've written pretty extensively on this topic in the past.  You might want
to check the TML archives.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes (was: Quick Query on US Tax Returns)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417162722.022054a8@mail.qrc.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEDLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
 <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020417223728.00a730f0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 05:35 PM 4/17/2002 -0400, Derek Wildstar wrote:

>Thus, while taxes can be a motivating factor for political or economic 
>events in my Traveller universe, they are not generally something that the 
>PC's have to worry about (unless, of course, they happen to be outside of 
>the starport extrality fence on New Hong Kong for Tax Notification Day).

Especially if you see a big Hoffmanite wearing an old X-Tel uniform running 
for the gate.

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sporadic announcement of traveller Webrings
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417234404.00ce37d8@mail.charter.net>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/TravRings.html>

I have all the Traveller related webrings I know of listed on this page.

I'm the RingMaster for the Gearhead ring & the Reavers' Deep ring.

Please feel free to join either of those if you have appropriate content.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417180901.009fd010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <003301c1e68b$dbbfb060$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Wednesday, April 17, 2002 6:09 PM
Douglas Berry said,

> That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm
> going to sue somebody.

Hey, Spleen Regeneration is a perfectly fine super power.  Just make sure
that you always take bullets in your spleen.

The bad news is your GM is going to charge you 30 character building points
for this advantage.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force. And,
like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master!"  -George
Washington


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 22:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 21:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F60NIPDrGsWt3ogiUBy000123e6@hotmail.com>

I am looking at an old article from JTAS (I think) called High Justice by 
Terry McInnes.  It deals with criminal cases, but I thought it would shed 
some light on civil law.  At the imperial and subsector level of justice, 
there are courts wtih 3-9 judges.  So, at least according to this article, 
there are courts of some sort and not just nobles dispensing justice.  FWIW.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 00:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 17 23:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <20020418093454.A32118@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204180939270.28080-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Timothy Little wrote:
> > Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> > tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> > even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
> Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
> best minds in medical science?

I think he is still missing the adamantium skeleton and the forearm
spurs...

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 04:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 18 03:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418055518.00a9a050@pop.wizard.net>

Bruce Johnson, regarding Law Level 0 worlds:
>Probably quite polite and formal, since it's likely heavily armed...and 
>the local citizenry is entirely likely to feel that maintaining public 
>order is incumbent on all members of society, as well as enforcement, 
>since LL0 worlds tend also to be low GOV worlds too.
>
>A good one to spring on a bunch of unsuspecting PC's...land them someplace 
>they're expecting to be Dodge City, and discover that it's anything but, 
>that their 'uncivilized' behavior is quickly, but firmly 
>corrected...permanently, if necessary...think a Heinleinian world of 
>self-reliant, armed and polite strangers...

I think the Dodge City reference is usually more apt than the Heinlein 
reference.  In other words, I'm thinking that territories of the United 
States before they became states, during the 1800s, are very instructive 
about the behavior of people when there's no law present.  Usually, low law 
level comes hand in hand with low population level.  The Malthusian 
pressures of population crowding are so low that nobody feels compelled to 
seek to arrange a government, police, and courts.  As population density 
increases, those things begin to be manifested.  Meanwhile, you can indeed 
get away with murder.  If you are more popular than the victim, and you 
have a good story to go along with it.  Or more feared than the victim's 
survivors.  Or you move to a distant part of the country.  Or you hang out 
with family and friends who will protect you or avenge your own death.  For 
fans of Westerns who are more familiar with the actual history of that time 
and place, 'McCabe and Mrs. Miller' is a much more accurate portrayal of 
the usual behavior in a lawless but armed society than an episode of 'The 
Lone Ranger'.

Another example that might be instructive is the evolution of the Mafia, 
Irish gangs, and Jewish gangs, and similar criminal organizations in the 
U.S. (a society that successfully ignored the law, and thus was de facto 
Law Level 0) during the 1900s.  Whoever threw their weight around the best 
got away with the most.  Both in relations between the gangs and relations 
within the gangs.  Exceptions to that rule of thumb tended to happen only 
when the law got involved or when the gangs ran their own private law in 
the form of treaties between gangs and courts run by 'nobles' and 'juries' 
within the gangs.

Heinlein is often invoked in the science fiction world as an example of 
libertarian principles at work.  I don't know how many have read his story 
'Coventry', which was set inside a huge area cordoned off by the U.S. and 
completely without laws.  Citizens of the U.S. who broke the law were 
banished to Coventry to live among the other people who felt they didn't 
need the law.  Contrary to the expectations of the rugged individualist who 
starts the story about to enter Coventry, the people inside Coventry 
evolved their own law, but one that was imposed by the biggest sharks in 
the pool and not so kind and gentle as the law they had just left 
behind.  This was Heinlein's story that most directly addressed the issue, 
and with writer as judge of the conflict between different poliltical 
systems, he clearly found in favor of the democratic one and against the 
libertarian one.

In my own science fiction (running MTU, for instance), I try to make things 
work the way I think it would probably evolve to work in those 
circumstances.  Except when I ignore that in the interests of what I think 
will make a good story, despite loss of realism.  :->  To me, a sparsely 
populated world, with little or no indigenous manufacturing capability is a 
frontier world and frontier justice is rough and the people who populate it 
are tough.  Feuds, mobs, lynchings, etc. occur.  Discharge of firearms 
within the town limits is something the more forward-thinking citizens, or 
at least business-minded citizens, would like to see stop but that doesn't 
stop the rowdy toughs coming through on a cattle drive from doing it.  I 
think that describes the situation of a lot of low law level systems.  That 
deals with systems where there is plenty of land to live on and it is in 
the process of being filled up by people.  Come back to the same spot in 
twenty-five years or even five years and it will be more populated and much 
less lawless.

There are also systems that have a low population that will never rise 
higher, usually because of poisonous atmospheres.  That is the kind of 
frontier that is most likely run as a corporate preserve, a mining 
town.  There is law, but not necessarily justice.  The law isn't law that's 
on the books.  It's just whatever the corporate managers need it to be at 
the time.

A third case of low law level worlds is when a noble administers a 
territory as his or her own private fief.  In that case, it's up to the 
noble how she or he wishes to run things.  That's the formal law.  It's 
also up to the noble to find some kind of police and other apparatus of law 
enforcement, so even a fief with lots of laws on the books may be a de 
facto Law Level 0 place.  The real world examples that most come to my mind 
are Imperial Russia, and the colonies in Africa, South America, and much of 
Asia that were run by the European powers.  A fictional example that a 
friend of mine completely bases his Traveller universe on is the first 
'Dune' book.

For me, those three categories cover most of the times in Traveller that 
you'll have low law levels.  The Dakotas and Utah in the middle 1800s, 
remote mining towns, and colonies or fiefs from various times and places in 
Earth's history.  In all of them, the law still tended to be present at 
least on paper and usually was more interested in representing the bigger 
businesses than anyone else.  The only truly Law Level 0 places I can think 
of from the real world were places that were so unexplored and thinly 
populated that humans never interacted with each other at all, hence no 
need for laws to regulate their interactions.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 04:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 18 03:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
References: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBEA2E8.3622281C@mindspring.com>

Jeff Rowse wrote:

> <snip>
> Jeff
> (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how
> much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight
> slows the game a little..?)

Yes, That's why I assume any hit on a player character completely destroys their
body, brain included.;)

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 04:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 18 03:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
References: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CBEA57A.C7BA93A2@mindspring.com>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm
> getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.
>
> Anything happen while I was gone?
>
> Loren Wiseman
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

No, We've been waiting for you.8)


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
References: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com> <3CBEA2E8.3622281C@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OE50n04x29xDbH8J0sc0000a9f3@hotmail.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:41 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)


> Jeff Rowse wrote:
>
> > <snip>
> > Jeff
> > (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how
> > much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight
> > slows the game a little..?)
>
> Yes, That's why I assume any hit on a player character completely destroys
their
> body, brain included.;)

With a massive explosion, to boot.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
 <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418064717.00a38870@pop.wizard.net>

Bill Scheets asked the following incisive questions:
>As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
>something:
>
>At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?

Not very.  Disputes between nobles are settled by higher nobles or the 
Emperor.  The political fortunes of nobles who get involved in a lot of 
disputes tend to be very bad, including even losing their noble 
title.  This conditions the population of nobles to work things out privately.

>Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?
>   Or are lawsuits rare and
>judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Depends on the planet.  This sort of thing usually belongs to planetary 
law, unless it deals with murder, slavery, or treason/sedition against the 
Imperium.  Each planet's law will be determined by its government, which 
may be as litigious or not as it wishes.

>Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?

Close to the Imperial core, planets tend to be high pop, high law level, 
and with a lot of interstellar commerce.  In such regions, the Imperium's 
wishes to maintain the flow of commerce are much more important than in 
other places.  Reciprocal agreements and extradition treaties between 
worlds have been in place for centuries are fully fleshed out, with 
sufficient bureaucratic backing and law enforcers to keep all that 
machinery running smoothly.  The to-us-familiar apparatus of courts and 
police and regulatory agencies is present, and this includes means of 
resolving civil disputes.  Nobles with power tend to be too busy to spend 
much of their time being directly involved in these matters, but will keep 
their hand in just enough to remind everyone who is boss.  Nobles with more 
title than power can (as has been suggested) and will be made use of to 
help with running the interplanetary justice system whenever things tend to 
bad for public relations or commerce.

Planets in the core will tend to have separate civil and criminal court 
systems.  Their jurisdiction only covers their own planetary governments 
borders.  Contracts between interstellar parties will state which 
jurisdiction they are contracted under, and that jurisdiction's courts will 
rule on disputes over the contract.  Interstellar libel and such will 
either get settled quickly, by a mechanism mutually agreeable to them, by 
the all governments with jurisdiction over the parties to the dispute or 
they can look forward to getting an Imperial noble take a hand in the 
disagreement.  Governments that can't work well with their neighbors in 
civil law disputes will start getting various kinds of pressure from their 
Imperial nobles to conform.  Nobles who also tend to have megacorp ties, 
and who control the gates of interstellar commerce between the worlds.

>Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

Sure, as are any other systems that the various planetary governments favor.


>What does canon have to say on this?

Not much.  The Imperium rules the space between the planets.  Government of 
men not law.  I vaguely remember some JTAS articles that describe the core 
of the Imperium as being much more an Imperial culture and Imperial 
government than the areas closer to the Imperial borders.  Out on the 
fringes, interstellar commerce is usually not as vitally important to the 
local governments and thus the Imperial nobles who govern those regions of 
space have less influence on the locals.  That's as my memory recalls it, 
and I caution that my memory is often unreliable.

Also canon that I think I recall is that the throne and nobles do tend to 
have significant power with the megacorps, and the megacorps tend to have 
significant power on the planets themselves.  And, presumably, the local 
government joined the Imperium to participate in promoting peace, order, 
and commerce and feel at least a little bit motivated to cooperate with 
each other in settling disputes between their citizens.  Or, maybe they 
just joined out of fear as people on the TML often joke, and deeply resent 
even the perception of infringement on their local authority.  The 
interstellar protection racket that is the Imperium is bad enough, in their 
eyes, without adding cultural imperialism and other interference in their 
planets' affairs.  I don't much believe in the protection racket model of 
the Imperium, but there's plenty of latitude in interpreting canon to 
permit it.  At least outside the core of the Imperium.

>   What do you have to say?

I've pretty much completely spilled my guts on the topic in this and my 
immediately preceding post.

Excellent topic and questions, by the way.  The kind of thing each referee 
should address and answer for themselves before they begin a campaign that 
involves interstellar travel.  Or even involves businesses that are 
interstellar.  We won't each have the same answers or the same Traveller 
universes, but that's part of the beauty of the Traveller game system.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020418.075038.-101319.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:13:54 +1000 (EST) =?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=
<quakers_united@yahoo.com.au> writes:
> QUOTE
> > Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> > bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's
> going
> > to see is a cloud of dust ;)
> 
> What, because you have dust in your veins instead of
> blood?  ;-)
> END QUOTE
> 
> No, because I am a vampire from buffy:the vampire
> slayer ;P

But then you would only have to worry if it was a *wooden* pointy
stick... most bayonets aren't made of wood, I suspect.  ;-)


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why Not? (was 'Why?')
Message-ID: <F270DabigPasSmz6UuE00011c1e@hotmail.com>

In mail, Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> responded to my 
somewhat ill-written missive thus...

>But these discussions ARE fun!

To which I reply...

Most of the time, anyway.  It is just that I have noticed that we often end 
up with some of us (myself included) saying "That wouldn't happen that way 
because..." - forex, Piracy or the effect of a ship's own hull and mass 
being within 100D of the jump point.
Whilst I appreciate the free education I receive from my fellow TML'ers (how 
much would a college or university charge for some of the stuff we give out 
for free??), I don't need to know it as a player character.

So, what is my ship's fuel tank lined with such that the Hydrogen doesn't 
seep out of it?  Ah, Unobtanium.  Wait a second, isn't that what powers the 
lasers I use to shoot holes in an Ethically-Challenged Merchant's ship?

As a matter of idle curiosity, does anyone *really* calculate such things as 
how much liver tissue was damaged, or is it just a case of "Sorry, there 
wasn't enough of the organ left to transplant"..?

Jeff.

"Abandon hope, all ye who press 'Enter' here..."

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 06:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Apr 18 05:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Thunderer class heavy cruiser
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEILEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

For those interested in the ships that could have thought in the
Interstellar War period I present the

THUNDERER CLASS HEAVY CRUISER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION


The Thunderer class were one of the first "battleship" designs built by the
Terrans following their contact with the Vilani.The rapidly advancing
technology of the Terrans soon made the design obsolete and they were
reclassified as heavy cruisers.

Designs effectively identical to the Thunderer continued to be built in
backwater areas and some of these managed to survive until the Second
Solomani Rim War when virus struck the region.

The relatively low tech level of the design meant that a large number were
passed on to client states, allies, and governments the Solomani were trying
to curry favour with. It is possible that at least some vessels of this
class are still in existance.


General Data Displacement: 90,000 tons  Hull Armour: 320
Length: 272 meters  Volume: 1,260,000 cubic meters
Price: MCr26,959.930864  Target Size: L
Configuration: Cylinder SL  Tech Level: 10
Mass (Loaded/Empty): 1,089,834.5929/1,020,193.4023tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 162,000 Mw Fusion Power Plant (50 Mw/hit), 1
year duration (959.888 Mw surplus)
Jump Performance: 2xJump-1 (126,000 cubic meters each)
G-Rating: 3 (45,000 Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G-Turns: 80 (102.4 allowing fuel for 1xJump-1, 124.8 with no jump reserve),
5,625 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 41,398

Electronics Computer: 3xTL10 Fb (0.6 Mw each)
Commo: 3x1,000AU Radio (8, 20 Mw ea), 3x1,000AU Maser (8, 0.6 Mw ea)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics
Sensors: 2xPassiveEMS Fixed Array 180,000km (6 hexes; 0.35 Mw ea),
3xActiveEMS 480,000km (DF Capable; 16 hexes; 315 Mw ea), 2xTL10 Neutrino
Sensor (0.01 Mw ea), 20x Running Lights (0.0001 Mw each)
ECM/ECCM: 300,000km EMS Jammer (10 hexes; 260 Mw), EM Masking (1,260 Mw)
Controls: Bridge with 662xBridge Workstations, Auxiliary Bridge with
662xBridge Workstations, Fire Control Bridge with 231xBridge, Flag Bridge
with 11xBridge Workstations, plus 2,430 Other workstations.

Armament Offensive: 1xTL10 30000-Mj N-PAW (Loc: Spinal; Arcs: 1; 4,166.667
Mw; 67 Crew), 40xTL10 812-Mj Laser 50-ton Bays (Loc: 10x4, 10x5; Arcs:
1,2,3; Loc: 10x16, 10x17; Arcs: 3,4,5; 112.778 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea), 280xTL10
130-Mj Laser Turrets (Loc: 70x2,70x3; Arcs: 1,2,3; Loc: 70x18,70x19; Arcs:
3,4,5; 18.0555 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea), 100xMissile Barbettes (Loc: 20x4, 20x5; 5
ready Missiles or Recce Drones ea; 0.15 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea)

 				Short  	Medium  	Long  	Extreme
30000-Mj Spinal N-PAW  	10:866  	20:866  	40:866  	80:866
-1 Diff Level
812-Mj Laser 50ton-Bay  8:1/23-71  	16:1/12-37  32:1/6-19  	64:1/3-9
-1 Diff Level
130-Mj Laser Turret  	3:1/9-29  	6:1/5-15  	12:1/2-7  	24:1-4
-1 Diff Level

Defensive: 30xTL10 Sandcaster Turrets (Loc: 10x1; Arcs: 1,2; Loc: 10x10;
Arcs: 2,3,4; Loc: 10x20; Arcs: 4,5; 1D10x5 per hit; 20 Cannisters ea; 1 Mw
ea; 1 Crew ea)
Master Fire Directors: 1xTL10 (3 Diff Mod; Non-Msl; 10 hexes; 13.22 Mw; 1
Crew), 40xTL10 (3 Diff Mod; Non-Msl; 8 hexes; 11.43 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea),
140xTL10 (3 Diff Mod; Non-Msl; 3 hexes; 8.074 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea), 50xTL10 (3
Diff Mod; Beam/Missile; 10 hexes; 13.37 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea)

Accomodations
Life Support: Extended (252 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (1G; 6300 Mw)
Crew: 5,492 (2,430xEngineering, 10xElectronics, 4xManeuver, 748xGunner,
522xMaintenance, 150xShip's Troops, 74xFlight Crew, 1,310xCommand,
199xStewards, 45xMedical), Flagship adds 12 (5xElectronics, 6xCommand,
1xSteward)
Crew Accomodations: 8xLarge Staterooms (0.001 Mw each), 2,050xSmall
Staterooms (0.0005 Mw each), 550xLow Berths (0.001 Mw each)
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 9,651.2 cubic meters, twenty eight large cargo hatches
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: 10 95-ton Cinnabar class shuttles with
internal hangers (minimal) and one launch port each, 2 50-ton Shrike class
fighters with internal hangers (minimal) and one launch port each, and 8
40-ton Pelican class launches with internal hangers (minimal) and one launch
port each
Air Locks: 900
Additional Fittings: 3x8-ton Sick Bay (0.8 Mw each), 5x10-ton Machine Shop
(1 Mw each), 5x6-ton Electronics Shop (0.6 Mw each)

Notes:

Fuel purification machinery (1,123.2 Mw) sufficient to purify 140,400 cubic
meters in 6 hours (30 hours for entire load exclusive of power plant fuel).
Fuel scoop capacity 252,000 cubic meters per hour.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  Surface Hits  		Internal Explosion  				Systems
1  	1-13:Ant  			1:PA,2:Sand,3-20:Qtrs  				PP-3240H,
2-3  	1-13:Ant  			1:PA,2-3:LB,4-15:Elec,16-20:Hold  		LS-1702H,FPP-1545H,
4-5  	1-3:Ant,4-5:AL  		1:PA,2-3:LBy,4:MB,5-14:Qtrs,15-20:Hold
ELS-851H,JD-756H,
6-9  	EMMR  			1:PA,2-20:Hold  					PA-391H,
10   					1:PA,2:Sand,3-20:Hold  				Hanger-384H,
11  	1-2:AL,3-6:CH,7-9:EMMR 	1:PA,2-20:Hold  					MD-135H,
12-13   				1:PA,2-20:Hold  					EMM-126H,
14-15	1-10:LP  			1:PA,2-20:Hold  					LBy-10H,LB-2H,
16-17   				1:PA,2-3:LBy,4-8:Eng,9-20:Hold  		AEMS-1H,ElecShop-1H,
18-19	1-2:AL  			1:PA,2-3:LB,4-20:Eng  				EMJammer-1H,
20   					1:PA,2:Sand,3-20:Eng  				LSR-1H,MB-1H,
   												MFD-1H,MFAnt-1H,
   												MachineShop-1H,
   												Neutrino-1H,
   												PEMAnt-1H,
   												Sand-1H,
   												SickBay-1H,
   												EMMR-(1260h),
   												SSR-(2h),
   												All others-(1h)

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 07:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Thu Apr 18 06:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

  I'm almost of the opinion that
> officers 
> > should be enlisted first
Amen to that. Was it ever like that though? Does
anybody know when it stopped if it was? And Why?
I think it instills elitism in the wrong kind of
people and the wrong kind of people are less likely to
be patient enough for a couple of years as a grunt.
Not to say that we don't have some fine officers now,
but they still need to know what it's like to be
treated like a pawn in a chess game. I doubt this
ideology would work well for pilots though.
I was never in the military,but was in AFROTC for a
while,we had a great bunch of guys and gals(with a
couple of bad eggs) but I don't know if they had it
where it counted or not. In ROTC you see a lot of
people with their heads way up in the clouds.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 08:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Thu Apr 18 07:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #416 - 37 msgs
Message-ID: <F50D2nTe1CIGj0gsmDz0000076e@hotmail.com>

In mail, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
wrote...
<<SNIP>>
Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
minds of men? I don't think so!

I want my money (along with my spleen) back.
<</SNIP>>

I dispute that third point.
<zombie_mode>
"Must get GT:Ground Forces...  Don't need food...  Dont need coffee...  Just 
Ground forces..."
</zombie_mode>

Jeff.

"Black helo?  What black helo?  <pause>  Oh sh**!"

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 08:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 18 07:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8E429CE.4E9EA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/18/02 6:46 AM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> I'm almost of the opinion that
>> officers 
>>> should be enlisted first
> Amen to that. Was it ever like that though? Does
> anybody know when it stopped if it was? And Why?

Just bear in mind that there is a reason for the distance between officers
and enlisted (speaking as one who has been both).  As officers you will be
required to give orders to your men that will result in their death or
maiming.  You will know this before hand.  It requires a certain detachment
(at least for non-sickos) to order men to their deaths.

I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that an officer should be required
to be enlisted first.  It's hard to say.  I've seen both kinds of officers,
some good and some bad.  I've seen people who came up through the ranks have
a hard time maintaining 'distance' from their people. Also, the duties of
the two groups are very different.

I suppose one could look at how we've done so far.  The vast majority of our
(US) officers come from ROTC.  We seem to be doing OK.  If it ain't broke,
don't fix it.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 08:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Thu Apr 18 07:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
References: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com> <3CBEA2E8.3622281C@mindspring.com> <OE50n04x29xDbH8J0sc0000a9f3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBEDD60.2050002@gmx.net>

Jeff Yin wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:41 AM
>Subject: Re: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
>
>
>>Jeff Rowse wrote:
>>
>>><snip>
>>>Jeff
>>>(By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how
>>>much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight
>>>slows the game a little..?)
>>>
>>Yes, That's why I assume any hit on a player character completely destroys
>>
>their
>
>>body, brain included.;)
>>
>
>With a massive explosion, to boot.
>
more likely: a massive explosion leaving behind a pair of smoking boots...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 09:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 08:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAGEIOCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3CBEE39B.6060103@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Bruce and Doug complain about their lack of superpowers
> <snip>
> 
> How do you think I feel?  I've straddled many a
> thermonuclear warhead, in the forlorn hopes that
> something would happen (super mutant children, for
> one).
> 
> Nothing!

Well did you wave your hat around and yell 'Yeee Haaa!' ???



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 09:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 18 08:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418055518.00a9a050@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 06:43:42AM -0400
References: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020418055518.00a9a050@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020418091957.A21336@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 06:43:42AM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> I think the Dodge City reference is usually more apt than the Heinlein 
> reference.  In other words, I'm thinking that territories of the United 
> States before they became states, during the 1800s, are very instructive 
> about the behavior of people when there's no law present.

Not just that, but large numbers of young men and very few women.  In
fact, ISTR a Scientific American article some years back examining
just that subject.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I don't want to achieve immortality through my work.  I want to achieve
it by not dying.                                          --Woody Allen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 09:55:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 08:55:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020417200008.009f3500@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418084245.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>

At 08:07 PM 4/17/02 -0600, you wrote:

>         Didn't you get the Control Penguins Power?  I thought you had, or 
> maybe it was the Penguin Projection Power .  No, wait, isn't that the 
> Bits project, Penguin Projection?  Geez, now I'm really confused. :)

Maybe I do cloud the minds of mortal men..

>         By the way, I just got my copy of ACQ.  You have been added to 
> the list of games I will buy just because of the author's demonstrated 
> competance.

Wow. Thank you, and hope you enjoy shooting things with glee.  Just 
remember one rule. Never spend more than half you APP in your round, unless 
you are ambushing someone. Always leave enough to react to the other guy's 
move.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:17:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:17:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330106b8e3cd72c219@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019146600.6212.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:
> 
> Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that 
> gets powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an 
> "accident", so maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but 
> whether it was "accidental".  :-)

Nah, it can be 'test subject'.  Captain America, for example.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Charge accumulation
Message-ID: <200204181629.EMH01314@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I remember when doing sling loads with helicopters, that 
before you attach the sling, you have to ground the hovering 
helicopter.  If you don't, you can get a shock powerful 
enough to throw you to the ground.  It's an accumulation of 
static by the rotor blades moving through the air.  Rather 
like a Van de Graff device.  You can also see the rotor tips 
glowing from this charge at night, especially using night 
vision.

Well, in Traveller, we're in a metal ship. We are constantly 
being bombarded by ions flowing from the nearby star.  Does 
our ship accumulate any charge?  If you park two ships near 
each other, is there a charge differential?  Is it 
significant?  If I touched both of the ships at the same 
time, would the charge difference want to flow through me?

Do engines such as HEPLAR exacerbate this charge difference 
by pushing charged material away from the ship?

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEHICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>
>
>Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to
>enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?

If the Imperium allows its members to go to war with one another, it
certainly does not require them to enforce each others' judgments.

Whether a world will enforce a judgment rendered on another world depends on
various factors:  does a treaty between the worlds govern the issue? if not,
do standards of comity apply? what is the current political situation
between the worlds?  There is plenty of work for lawyers in a system as
complex as the Imperium.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:42:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:42:49 2002
Subject: ret: [TML] New Filk
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHJCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I put this up on my Live Journal, but it didn't get much response there, so
>I'd thought I'd post it here.
>
>Flaming Eye

Common brigands seek interstellar support by recasting themselves as racial
freedom fighters -- I like it!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204181647.EMH04030@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson asks
>
>Well did you wave your hat around and yell 'Yeee Haaa!' ???
>
Indeed.

There are many opportunities to relive moments from various 
movies when you are in a nuclear missile unit.

One interesting thing:  I ended up writing a bit of software 
to keep track of the status of the battalion's missiles 
(which ones were away, counting, etc.).  The various platoons 
would report their status via the program over radio modem 
rather than by voice.  In the requirements, they wanted to 
know time of flight, but didn't care about time of impact.

I put it in anyway.  During one exercise, the officers were 
crowded around in the BCC, drinking coffee after the count, 
and I interrupted the festivities by announcing, "<name of 
city>, impact in 5.. 4... 3... 2.."  Everyone was very upset, 
as they didn't even want to think about what happens after 
they succeed in launching.

Never, ever sign someone up as an infantryman, and then tell 
him halfway through his term that "because you were a 
programmer in civilian life, we're going to make you one 
here, because we're short programmers.  We don't know who 
assigned you here, but we've no use for you otherwise.".

The consolation prize was that when not writing programs, I 
had the keys to the arms room.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Charge accumulation
In-Reply-To: <200204181629.EMH01314@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019148621.4086.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> Well, in Traveller, we're in a metal ship. We are constantly 
> being bombarded by ions flowing from the nearby star.  Does 
> our ship accumulate any charge?

Probably.

> If you park two ships near each other, is there a charge differential?
> Is it significant?  If I touched both of the ships at the same 
> time, would the charge difference want to flow through me?

Once grounded, any charge should dissipate fairly rapidly.
> 
> Do engines such as HEPLAR exacerbate this charge difference 
> by pushing charged material away from the ship?

No, it seems to eject plasma, with a probable net charge of zero.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204180015090.24858-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020417010106.E5149279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418125300.0228bff0@mail.qrc.com>

At 06:28 PM 4/17/2002, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>Do you mean 9,000 systems rather than the 10,000 there's supposed to be?
>IIRC the figures are 11,000 worlds in 10,000 systems

Back in the day, my analysis of the old sector data files found about 
10,500 worlds coded Imperial (or for imperial cultural regions), so that's 
what my Imperial GNP figure was based on.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 10:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Charge accumulation
In-Reply-To: <200204181629.EMH01314@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418095458.009eb9c0@mindspring.com>

At 12:29 PM 4/18/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I remember when doing sling loads with helicopters, that
>before you attach the sling, you have to ground the hovering
>helicopter.  If you don't, you can get a shock powerful
>enough to throw you to the ground.  It's an accumulation of
>static by the rotor blades moving through the air.  Rather
>like a Van de Graff device.  You can also see the rotor tips
>glowing from this charge at night, especially using night
>vision.

I learned that you had better check this for yourself rather than trust the 
new guy to actually have done this.  If I had hair, it would have been 
standing on end.  As it was, I had a nasty burn on my foot where the charge 
exited my body and an irregular heartbeat for several hours, enough to get 
me a free helicopter ride out of East Rain.

>Well, in Traveller, we're in a metal ship. We are constantly
>being bombarded by ions flowing from the nearby star.  Does
>our ship accumulate any charge?  If you park two ships near
>each other, is there a charge differential?  Is it
>significant?  If I touched both of the ships at the same
>time, would the charge difference want to flow through me?

SOM had ships with probes to allow discharge of accumulated charges, and to 
attract lightning bolts during wilderness refueling.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 11:05:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 10:05:17 2002
Subject: ret: [TML] New Filk
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHJCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418095901.009f31b0@mindspring.com>

At 09:35 AM 4/18/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> >
> >I put this up on my Live Journal, but it didn't get much response there, so
> >I'd thought I'd post it here.
> >
> >Flaming Eye
>
>Common brigands seek interstellar support by recasting themselves as racial
>freedom fighters -- I like it!

(Takes bow)

I got the inspiration while reading a book about Anne Bonney and Mary Read 
at the same time as a book about the mythical Werewolf units, SS troops 
that were supposed to start a guerilla war against the Allies. It struck me 
that some Vilani would refuse to surrender, and go pirate.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Thu Apr 18 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Some Info...
Message-ID: <OF98BD72DE.DB3A42D5-ON85256B9F.005EA550@pheaa.org>

do we have any Aeronautical Engineers on the list?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 12:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Thu Apr 18 11:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Some Info...
References: <OF98BD72DE.DB3A42D5-ON85256B9F.005EA550@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBF16E6.327D72C5@virgin.net>

William Lane wrote:

> do we have any Aeronautical Engineers on the list?
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Yes.  Me!

Si

And there is one other i believe.

:-)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 13:58:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 12:58:24 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020418082212.A31848@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20418.115507.2p7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?
> ...
>> You want it because you were making such a fuss about not being able
>> to use oxygen to convert methane to water and CO2 because you'd lose
>> the oxygen if you threw away the CO2.
>
> I did.  That doesn't mean I want to have a special LOX tank just in
> case I can find hydrogen but not water.  Most of the time I'm going to
> be buying water from the starport I'm docked at.  Most of the rest of
> the time, I'll be getting it from iceballs or seas.  That's much safer
> than gas giant skimming, if nothing else.  In a desperate situation, I
> *might* come across a system that has a gas giant but no water.  (The
> only plausible cases I can think of involve a gas giant inside the
> star's 100D limit) In that case I can still skim hydrogen gas and
> process it into the LHyd tank for a 1-parsec jump.  If there is any
> water in the GG atmosphere (likely if there is no water elsewhere), I
> can collect that too, diffuse though it may be.

At reasonable altitudes that water is going to be *really* scarce.

>> Only at the cost of *not* being able to refuel by scopping at a gas
>> giant. The atmosphere is 90%+ hydrogen.
>
> That just means you need to spend a bit longer scooping for the other
> stuff, a time which in itself is relatively minor compared to the time
> taken to get to and from a gas giant's 100D limit.  But why perform
> that dangerous maneuver at all when you've got almost always got
> lovely little microgravity water sources nowhere near so deep into a
> 100D limit?

Don't ask me. The rules seem to think it's a good idea. :-)

>> No, but you can't use the water for drinking,
>
> I can after I remove the ammonia.

>> and it needs special handling as ammonia water is corrosive.
>
> Scary.  You were talking about hundreds of tons of cryogenic LH2.
> Ever looked up the MSDS for that?

You are stuck handling the stuff anyway. The difference between
"minimal" tankage for it, and storing all your fuel that way isn't
going to change the hazards all that much.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 13:59:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 12:59:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEEDDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20418.120147.7F3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> >> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
>> >> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were 
>> "boiled" off.
>> >
>> > Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
>> > a nitpick.
>> 
>> I was going by the figures in the post I was responding to, which had a
>> higher density listed for Mercury.
>
> No, they didn't. I quoted 5.43 for Mercury, 5.52 for Earth.

The *original* post (not yours) quoted 5.56 for Mercury.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:00:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:00:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417165617.00a9ea90@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <20418.120339.3g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
>>that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
>>An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
>>perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
>>planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
>>come up eventually.
>
> There is a simple way to make planets more dense without changing the basic 
> composition. Bigger terrestrial worlds will have higher density because of 
> compression, which is far more effective for bigger bodies. Just adding 
> more rock will make the rock more dense.
>
> Earth has a compressed density higher than Mercury, but the uncompressed 
> density is considerably less. If a planet had the composition of Mercury 
> and the radius of Earth, which potentially could happen in an decently 
> iron-rich inner system with a major collision between two large rocky 
> worlds, that planet would have even greater density than Mercury has, say, 
> somewhere between 6 and 6.5. If a world with the composition of Earth is 
> 50% greater in radius it also would likely have higher density than Earth.

On the other hand, unless that collision happened *really* late in the
formation of the system, such a plent would tend to collect a lot more
gas and other stuff, and possibly wind up as a mini-GG.

Above a certain point, you get runaway accumulation of material, which
results in a gas giant of some sort.

*Where* that point is is subject to a lot of debate as we don't have
enough of a sample set to draw the line except *very* broadly. 

Also, that major collision is just as apt to scatter pieces of those
rocky world halfway across the system.

> On the other hand, if we think of an Earth-size world with the composition 
> of Mars, it would still have a density of say, 4.5 to 5. I'd argue a more 
> common problem in RPGs is that densities for Earth-like worlds are too low. 
> (Big world with low density to generate decent gravity-style.)

I haven't noticed that much.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:01:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:01:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20418.120911.8p9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hi
>
>> Also, the post I was replying to had the wrong density for Mercury, and
>> had it being denser than earth. I didn't check my references until
>> someone pointed out the error.
>
> You were replying to my post, and the densities were correct there.

No. The posts where I referred Mercury being denser were replies to a
post that had Mercury being denser than earth.

Check the levels of quotes. 

> BTW, as an aside, Red Dwarfs display similar relative elemental abundances
> to the Sun, but are many , many times denser.

Yes, but that's due to factors that don't apply to *planets* to any
great extent.

>> Work out the field strength at 100 diameters for size 1 thru 10 planets
>> assuming densities similar to that of earth or even Mars. The figures
>> are *way* off.
>
> Now try the same with tidal forces where the Mars size planet has a density
> equal to that of Mars, and the Earth sized planet has a density equal to
> that of the Earth. Do you get the same answer ? No.

Yes, but you apparently missed the part that shows that to make the
inverse-square forces come out anywhere near equal at 100 diameters,
the *smaller* world has to be the denser one. Having it be less dense
makes the mismatch *worse*.

This is exactly the *opposite* of your example.

With equal densities, the inverse-square forces at 100 diameters is
greater for larger worlds in direct proportion to the ratio of the
diameters of the worlds. 

So, assuming that the forces are in direct proportion to the mass of
the planet, to get them to match at 100 diameters, the density of the
larger world must be lower. 

Since this is the exact oposite of the situation for "typical" (in
Traveller) "worlds" (ie what gets generated as mainworlds and non-GG,
non-asteroid/cometary halo bodies) invoking density differences as
a reason to prefer inverse square forces (acceleration due to gravity,
"slope" of the gravity well, etc) over inverse cube forces (tidal
acceleration, curvature of space, etc) is silly.

> This only works if all
> of the 10 worlds in your calculation have the same density, which makes no
> sense.

But that's what the rules *explicitly* state in the first three books.

It's also a good way to make a first cut at analyzing the problem. Vary
*one* property and see what happens in your calculations. This lets you
eliminate the obviously wrong hypotheses (such as "jump limits are
based on inverse square forces"). Then you add in other variables (such
as density) and see what you get.

It's not that different than starting out by calculating Earth's
gravity as if the planet was a perfect sphere of uniform density. A
simplification to get first order results to compare to your data.

> Better to define jump limits in terms of field strengths, tidal force
> values, etc, than a distance/number of diameters. Sure the distance will
> vary, but the rule is then usable in all situations and is more internally
> consistent.

Which is what I advocate. So why are you objecting?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:02:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:02:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEICCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20418.122806.4f6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Pions can be created by the collision of matter and antimatter.
> The creation time can be tightly controlled.  So the start point
> for acceleration to relativistic speeds is therefore controlled.
>
> It requires far less handwaving than that required for plasma/fusion
> weapons.

Slight problem. You *can't* control the direction the created pions are
moving in. Nor the velocity. All you can say is that the vector sum of
the momenta of the pions will equal that of the original
proton/anti-proton pair. 

And neutral pions can't be affected by electric or magnetic fields,
making focusing them more than a little difficult.

Artifically generated gravity would solve this. Alas, it requires field
strengths that can't be generated in Traveller. Or if they *can*,
they'd make various other things possible that we don't see.

Then again, the same is true of the "grav-focusing" of lasers. 

> Neither of the latter can produce a "bolt" of plasma that
> can fly downrange, in air or in vacuum.  No guide beams, etc, 
> are going to help.

True enough. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:03:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:03:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Timothy Little says
>>They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half 
>>of the original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has 
>>elapsed, 1/4 decay in the next half-life period, 1/8 in the 
>>half-life after that, etc.
>
> then it's not possible to accelerate *any* mesons at all, 
> given their half-life.  Almost all of them would be gone 
> before they got to the end of the accelerator.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

> Please contact Los Alamos and inform them that the meson 
> accelerator that they have been using since 1968 is a fake.  
> It sends beams of mesons out without irradiating the 
> accelerator.  The only items that become "hot" are in the 
> target area.  Please explain how that is done.

Maybe you need to check out *how* the mesons are created. Usually, it's
done by bombarding a target with a more stable particle (such as
protons or heavy ions) which gives a shower of mesons that are already
moving at relativistic velocities. Then those are fed into a
second-stage accelerator which "loses" non-mesons as the accelerating
fields are varying at the wrong rate for particles with a different
charge to mass ratio.

Or they may use other techniques.

Thing is, what we've been saying about half-lives *is* correct. The
existence of the accelerator doesn't change that. It merely means that
some of *your* assumptions about how it operates are incorrect.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204182026.EMP00817@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

It would seem that the effects of the LAMPF facility's beam 
is lethal enough at 800 MeV, and they plan to raise it to 
80GeV.  

Even without the magical meson effects, the mesons they 
accelerate seem to be able to do enough damage as it is.  
They also seem to be able to accelerate protons, and produce 
neutron beams.  A neutron beam, to me, would seem ideal.  You 
would permanently irradiate the target, etc.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204182026.EMP00817@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019163077.9084.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> It would seem that the effects of the LAMPF facility's beam 
> is lethal enough at 800 MeV, and they plan to raise it to 
> 80GeV. 

Shrug.  Lethal for what?  Large quantities of radiation are bad for things. 
> 
> Even without the magical meson effects, the mesons they 
> accelerate seem to be able to do enough damage as it is. 

Sure, but we call this a 'Particle Accelerator'.  A meson beam has fairly
typical PAW effects.
 
> They also seem to be able to accelerate protons, and produce 
> neutron beams.  A neutron beam, to me, would seem ideal.  You 
> would permanently irradiate the target, etc.

Actually, at high energies just about any type of beam will induce radiation in
the target, since it will tend to blow nuclei apart.  In fact, by around 1 GEv
there's no particular difference in penetration between any particles that
interact via the strong force (including pions, neutrons, protons, and the
relevant antiparticles); in all cases penetration is comparable to cosmic rays,
with a typical penetration of 50-100 grams/cm^2 before the first collision
(this results in a cascade effect as new particles are created; the continued
penetration of the cascade depends on the energy level of the particles, but
500 grams/cm^2 is suitable for 90+% shielding against multi-GEv primary cosmic
rays).

Since meson guns are less affected by armor than conventional particle beams
(which are probably proton accelerators) there must be some special particle
involved.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204182056.EMP04739@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

80 GeV sounds like a weapon.

So you're saying at this power level, there's no difference 
in penetration for protons, neutrons, etc.?

Would a stream of positrons be any worse for the target?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 15:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 14:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEHLCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>
>
>Anthony Jackson said
>
> > >No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
[quotation deleted]
> > I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home
[deletion]
>Nah, if the defendant has a local office (sales outlet, whatever) you can
>sue the local unit.
>
>If the defendant is big and has a local offices sure.  You can play games
>with that though, like having every local office as a separate corporation.
>Because the LIC is granted by the Imperium, local courts probably can not
>break through the corporate veil.

Whatever the answer, it's clear that the Far Future will be a paradise for
lawyers.  Cha-ching!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 15:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 14:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204182056.EMP04739@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019164377.5758.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 80 GeV sounds like a weapon.

Depends how many particles you have.  80 GEv is a respectable weapon if you
have 10^15 particles or so (total energy ~13 MJ)
> 
> So you're saying at this power level, there's no difference 
> in penetration for protons, neutrons, etc.?

Pretty much.
> 
> Would a stream of positrons be any worse for the target?

Lower penetration, actually.  Best choice for penetration would be muons (for a
neutral beam, perhaps muonium, which is an 'atom' formed by an electron and an
anti-muon, or a positron and a muon)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 15:53:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr 18 14:53:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019146600.6212.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1019146600.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8e4f059a959@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:16 AM -0700 4/18/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>>
>>  Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that
>>  gets powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an
>>  "accident", so maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but
>>  whether it was "accidental".  :-)
>
>Nah, it can be 'test subject'.  Captain America, for example.

OK, so maybe you get super powers if you are exposed to "accidental" 
or "untested" levels.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 17:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 16:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
Message-ID: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>

Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable whatever it is that 
makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML coding? I tried a quoted message and it 
ended up an unholy mess.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 17:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 16:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
Message-ID: <621638DD.3A102E03.02280B06@aol.com>

GDWGAMES@aol.com writes:
> Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable 
> whatever it is that makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML 
> coding? I tried a quoted message and it ended up an unholy 
> mess.

I don't know if you *can* turn off the HTML coding. Gotta
be able to use those cutesy little smileys and special fonts,
after all.

Meanwhile, since at least 6.0 the standard Internet-style
quoting (with the '>' marks) no longer works. I now copy
the text I want to quote to the clipboard, then hand-edit
the '>' marks into the quoted block. Annoying, but the
result is at least clean and readable to multiple email
clients.

---
Jon



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20418.120911.8p9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEGHDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi

> Yes, but that's due to factors that don't apply to *planets* to any
> great extent.

True, but it was an example of relative abundance being irrelevant to
density, and as such it still stands.

> Yes, but you apparently missed the part that shows that to make the
> inverse-square forces come out anywhere near equal at 100 diameters,
> the *smaller* world has to be the denser one. Having it be less dense
> makes the mismatch *worse*.

I'm not trying to make anything work at 100 diameters. I'm pointing out the
flaw in your insistence of using 100 diameters. Also, my point was that the
densities would be different, so the tidal force argument doesn't work
either. 100D is an arbitrary rule, period. There is no magic formula unless
you cook the books.

> But that's what the rules *explicitly* state in the first three books.

Lots of stuff in the three LBBs has been superceded. Do you really still
generate worlds with just the basic rules ? Or do you use the World
Builder's Handbook, or Book 6, or First In ? If you do, you'll find that
density is not uniform.

> Which is what I advocate. So why are you objecting?

My original post in this thread was to do with the maximum mass for a
starship before its own gravitational field caused a misjump, a logical
extension of the existing canon background. I seem to remember you corrected
me and told me that tidal forces must be the reason for the 100 diameter
rule, which then reduced the maximum mass and/or density of a starship
before a misjump occurred to smaller than a Type S Scout. I'd disagree with
the latter consequence as it is inconsistent with the background.

Anyhow, we're arguing over nothing. Let's call it a day. IYTU, do as you
will shall be the whole of the law.

Regards

Andy Brick










---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 17/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20418.143129.3R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> My courts apply the same burden of proof in both civil and criminal
> cases, in my case "on the balance of probabilities" rather than
> "beyond reasonable doubt". Juries are not a recognised concept and
> instead panels of nobles ranging from one to the entire moot,
> depending on the case, make decisions after hearing argument. It does
> not take a genius to work out that the system is highly open to abuse.

Problem is, "beyond reasonable doubt" and "jury of your peers" *both*
came about because of abuses.

Jury of peers dates back to the Magna Carta and was put there by
*nobles who were upset about abuses by the king. And note that "jury of
your peers" basicly means nobles would get tried by nobles.... <eg>
I can't see a stable Imperium *not* having something like that. At
least at some levels. 

And if you define "peers" properly, it works with both "government of
men, not laws" and nobles having "extra" priveleges.

the beyond reasonable doubt bit is also apt to develop if only because
convicting innocent people tends to get their friends and relatives
upset with the government. 

And if someone is a vassal of a noble, the noble is going to insist on
stronger evidence as well.

On the other hand, we have (at least) two different system to draw
from. In the "French" system, the "proving" of guilt is relegated to
the "police" side of things. It's (supposed to be) harder to file
charges without a lot of proof. But once filed, you have to prove
yourself innocent.

The "English" system has the filing of charges be much simpler, but
then at trial (supposedly) they have to prove you guilty. 

I suspect that there are other systems to be found in history. 

Local governments should be pretty free to have laws that don't
conflict with Imperial interests. And to be as "just" or "unjust" as
they care to be, as long as it's (theoretically) possible for people to
leave.

Commercial laws may actually be more uniform, simply because the
Imperium is an empire based on "free" trade. Which means it pretty much
requires the laws covering contracts and the like to be uniform. 

What sort of contracts are legal may vary from world to world. But the
rules on drawing them up, enforcing them, and assigning liability for
failures will be fairly standard.

The *penalties* on the other hand... <eg>

So while the decision as to the validity of a contract and whether or
not one party has failed in carrying out there part might be much the
same on the homeworld of each party, the legality of the good or
service contracted for may vary greatly. As may the consequences of
failure to carry out the contract.

On world A, defaulting may merely involve either "best effort" to
correct the failure with financial liability up to the value of the
good/service or the bankruptcy limit (whichever is smaller), on world B
defaulting may result in becoming an indentured servant of the other
party until you can make good the loss. and on world C the damaged
party may be able to opt to have you tortured or even put to death,
with a scale set up based on the magnitude of the loss. 

So which world's law governs could be *really* important. And the PCs
who don't check into the details could really regret it. <g>

> There is no real distinction between civil and criminal law at the Imperial 
> level. Instead all cases are treated in the same way and dealt with through 
> the same channels. The main difference is that in some cases precedent holds 
> that the court should appoint Imperial investigators to gather evidence. In 
> other cases the burden of investigation lies entirely with the litigant. 

Aside from Imperial crimes, most "Imperial" level litigation will be
civil anyway. Salvage cases, contracts that get appealed (not many
will, unless the situation is either complicated or the parties to the
contract specified that Imperial courts would be used to resolve
problems), etc.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:25:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:25:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F18T2Y89RdrUnR65Cbk00002a25@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20418.145258.6Y3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
>>Sam D writes:
>> > Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to
>> > enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign 
>>judgments?
>>
>>No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
>>difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in 
>>state
>>courts work.
>
> I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home turf, 
> because that is the only place you can collect.  That should discourage 
> litigation, and make a lot of lawyers rich with asset protection seminars.  
> Maybe some worlds would become big Switzerlands where the wealthy hide their 
> dough.
>
> So I guess you would sue free traders where there ship is registered, 
> because that is where title would be?  Then how do you actually get 
> possession if other worlds are free to ignore the judgments of other worlds?

That's *why* the Imperium pretty much *has* to enforce some sort of
rules about contract laws when more than one world/government is
involved. Otherwise trade becomes much harder to carry on. And that's
not good for the Imperium.

Civil cases that don't affect interworld trade and criminal cases that
don't violate the few Imperial "criminal" laws will only get dealt with
if some noble with jurisdiction (ie a noble from an involved planet, a
susector level noble from the subsector the dispute is in, etc) decides
to get involved.

So, if you can get a noble from your planet involved, you may get some
action. But only if he can get the noble in charge of the other planet
interested in discussing it with him.

Better is if the worlds are in the same sub-sector and you can
get a subsector-level noble involved as he has authority over both
worlds. If they are in different subsectors, but the same sector, then
you need to get a sector level noble interested. 

If they are in different sectors but the same domain, then you may need
the Archduke to get involved. And if they are in different domains,
you'll have to appeal to the Emperor. 

And if you are dealing between the Imperium and some other interstellar
polity, it could get *really* ugly.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:25:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:25:41 2002
Subject: [TML] The L-E Digest?
In-Reply-To: <F82qi8VjUwZcSlVviFl0000bd6b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20418.163302.7i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In mail, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) asked:
>
>>Nah, if everyone who goofed did that who'd be posting? :-)
>
> <tongue-in-cheek>
> Um, just you?
> </tongue-in-cheek>

Excuse me? I'm far from infallible. As should be obvious from a few
recent posts.... :-(

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <007901c1e739$fb4c0560$9bb18b90@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm
> going to sue somebody.

It could be worse.  Have you seen the (very fine) movie 'Mystery Men'?  You
could have become The Spleen.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBF6B82.9FD041AE@mailbag.com>

> From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
>
> Heinlein is often invoked in the science fiction world as an example of
> libertarian principles at work.  I don't know how many have read his story
> 'Coventry', which was set inside a huge area cordoned off by the U.S. and
> completely without laws.  Citizens of the U.S. who broke the law were
> banished to Coventry to live among the other people who felt they didn't
> need the law.  Contrary to the expectations of the rugged individualist who
> starts the story about to enter Coventry, the people inside Coventry
> evolved their own law, but one that was imposed by the biggest sharks in
> the pool and not so kind and gentle as the law they had just left
> behind.  This was Heinlein's story that most directly addressed the issue,
> and with writer as judge of the conflict between different poliltical
> systems, he clearly found in favor of the democratic one and against the
> libertarian one.

Thank you for remembering this. I knew there was a quite well written
refutation in his work but I had forgotten the name. 

As a fairly hard lefty (hey I am a member of the DSA.
http://www.dsausa.org if you don't know them. Keep in mind that I keep
that link  in my religion folder... ;') I had a difficult time
understanding some of his works when I was a teen. The way "Coventry" is
written makes it very clear that a democracy that passes things against
his ideals is a better place to him than a tyrany that is exactly in
line with his thought. It's also useful to understand that one can
respect while disagreeing. 

 I've learned alot from his books - and even more after I did 16 years
in the US Army/National Guard/Army Reserve. OTOH, it's fun sometimes to
be the token lefty... 

William
-- 
You better watch out    What you wish for;
It better be worth it   So much to die for.
                                Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 18 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20418.143129.3R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>; from shadow@krypton.rain.com on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 02:31:29PM -0800
References: <cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84@aol.com> <20418.143129.3R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020418190201.A22643@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 02:31:29PM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> Jury of peers dates back to the Magna Carta and was put there by
> nobles who were upset about abuses by the king.  And note that "jury
> of your peers" basicly means nobles would get tried by nobles....

And commoners by commoners.  I believe it was Blackstone who commented
that all this ties into the presumption of innocence, fair trial,
burden of proof on the prosecution complex.  The idea being that
commoners are more likely to favour their own, and nobility their own,
and thus that things are slanted in favour of the defendant.  Which is
a Good Thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron--more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to mankind.
                              --Mirelle Stein, The Productive Class

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 19:04:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 18 18:04:37 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>; from GDWGAMES@aol.com on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 07:30:44PM -0400
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020418190346.B22643@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 07:30:44PM -0400, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>
> Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable whatever it
> is that makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML coding? I tried a
> quoted message and it ended up an unholy mess.

Does AOL offer SMTP and (POP3 or IMAP) to its subscribers?  If so, you
can use any mail client you wish.  I understand that Mozilla's is very
good, for those who like GUI clients.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A PC without windows is like a chocolate cake without mustard.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Thu Apr 18 18:08:02 2002
Subject: Officer Candidates (was Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets)
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBF6DB5.E1C86E36@mailbag.com>

> From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
>   I'm almost of the opinion that
> > officers
> > > should be enlisted first

I've long felt that not only should prior service be required, but that
promotion to E-5 be required before acceptance into any officer training
program. This, essentially, requires that the gentle serves at least one
term as a grunt first. I've seen some who took the OCS test in the
middle of basic who weren't any better than the ROTC things that we
occasionally got stuck with. OTOH, pointers were far worse...  
 
As a soldier and as a sergeant, I always respected the mavericks far
more - if they gave you a shit detail they had probably shoveled the
same shit at some point. Unlike any of the rest.

William
-- 
You better watch out    What you wish for;
It better be worth it   So much to die for.
                                Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:08:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:08:11 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20418.214954.3L6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable whatever it
> is that makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML coding? I tried a
> quoted message and it ended up an unholy mess.

	http://expita.com/nomime.html


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:12:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:12:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a@aol.com>

--part1_21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always had trouble with 
the idea of a line of seperately-designed launchers being required to fire 
"sand", so I decided to just do away with them IMTU; allowing the typical 
missile launcher to fire several different types of munitions; with "sand" 
being used in its usual role as a screen to counter incoming missiles or 
energy beam fire, as well as it acting as a fairly effective antipersonnel 
weapon (Striker, bk2).
  -Ken Murphy-
  
   
   
   

--part1_21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always had trouble with the idea of a line of seperately-designed launchers being required to fire "sand", so I decided to just do away with them IMTU; allowing the typical missile launcher to fire several different types of munitions; with "sand" being used in its usual role as a screen to counter incoming missiles or energy beam fire, as well as it acting as a fairly effective antipersonnel weapon (Striker, bk2).
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR> &nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:17:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:17:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
Message-ID: <200204190140.EMZ01428@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was just looking at something called Electric Tokamak, and 
I noticed that in one of the pictures, they were using 
hydrogen plasma, and in a few others, helium plasma.  I 
thought that this was strange, since no machine built yet 
achieves a high beta (high enough to break even, that is).

In their "introduction" section, they talk about the machine 
being able to use "low-neutron yield fusion fuels" in the 
future with this design.

It makes me think that their intent in the end is to use 
helium rather than hydrogen.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:19:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:19:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Could some kind soul please contact me off-List with some links to 
sites that list various combat formation TO&Es?  I've tried Google until my 
eyes crossed with no avail.  As you all well know, I'm not the sharpest tool 
in the shed and my surfing abilities suffer as a consequence.
     The recent TML thread discussing unit TO&Es and the well deserved 
praise for Mr. Berry's accomplishments regarding them in GT:GF gave me cause 
to flush all the unit descriptions in my "Dirty Little War" project.
     Specifically, I'm interested in TO&Es from the turn of the last 
century, say the 1905/Russo-Japanese War to 1918/Great War range.  This 
implies large squad automatic weapons, clunky AFVs, and early combat 
aircraft.
     Thank you.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:21:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:21:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <007901c1e739$fb4c0560$9bb18b90@computer>
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418190001.009e85e0@mindspring.com>

At 10:34 AM 4/19/02 +1000, you wrote:
> > From: Douglas Berry
> > That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm
> > going to sue somebody.
>
>It could be worse.  Have you seen the (very fine) movie 'Mystery Men'?  You
>could have become The Spleen.

No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!

"Ah, the Disco Room!"


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:24:05 2002
Subject: Officer Candidates (was Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets)
In-Reply-To: <3CBF6DB5.E1C86E36@mailbag.com>
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418221746.020382a8@192.168.0.1>

At 08:07 PM 4/18/2002 -0500, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:
> > From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
> >   I'm almost of the opinion that
> > > officers
> > > > should be enlisted first
>I've long felt that not only should prior service be required, but that
>promotion to E-5 be required before acceptance into any officer training
>program. This, essentially, requires that the gentle serves at least one
>term as a grunt first. I've seen some who took the OCS test in the
>middle of basic who weren't any better than the ROTC things that we
>occasionally got stuck with. OTOH, pointers were far worse...
>As a soldier and as a sergeant, I always respected the mavericks far
>more - if they gave you a shit detail they had probably shoveled the
>same shit at some point. Unlike any of the rest.

Back when I was a young lad, dear old dad wanted my brother and I to go to 
West Point.

After his tour in scenic Southeast Asia, the tune changed to, "You boys 
wouldn't embarrass your father by going to a military academy."


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!
Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>

On Thursday 18 April 2002 21:37, you wrote:

> Maybe you need to check out *how* the mesons are created. Usually, it's
> done by bombarding a target with a more stable particle 

Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel" 
problems: Nuclear Damping Technology. Obviously this is used inside the 
barrel (And maybe for some distance outside it... remember, Nuclear Dampers 
work at some range... on the order of 30,000 KM. Meson Screens are obviously 
a special type of Nuclear Damper, specifically tuned to decay mesons. If you 
can do that, you can surely do the opposite: Prevent them from Decaying, or 
massively reduce their decay rate) in order to prevent your mesons from 
decaying too early. Mesons are obviously generated, en-masse, by nuclear 
damper style technology also, set up for very short range (i.e. meters, or 
centimeters) but extremely powerful and finely controlled damper-style 
fields. 

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
In-Reply-To: <200204190140.EMZ01428@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204190140.EMZ01428@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020419184155.A3066@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> It makes me think that their intent in the end is to use helium
> rather than hydrogen.

I would suspect that they intend to study any number of modes of
operation very thoroughly.  To me they seemed to be concentrating more
on pure hydrogen plasmas at the moment, but that would be because this
is meant to be a controlled experiment of their theoretical method,
not a commercial fusion operation.

I did notice a few hydrogen/helium runs, though.  We'll have to see
what the future holds when they see how well this mode of operation
conforms to theory.  :)


With these advances, it looks like large-scale commercial fusion power
is only about twenty years away!
;^>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>

Brian Caball wrote:
> Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel" 
> problems: Nuclear Damping Technology.

The only problem is, why doesn't a meson gun then function
automatically as a perfect meson screen?  If you can prevent your
mesons decaying over distances of up to millions of kilometres, why
can't you ensure that the other guy's mesons don't decay within a
range of twenty metres?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
Message-ID: <200204190855.BAA14300@ping.iii.com>

Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> writes:

>On Thursday 18 April 2002 21:37, you wrote:
>
>> Maybe you need to check out *how* the mesons are created. Usually, it's
>> done by bombarding a target with a more stable particle 
>
>Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel" 
>problems: Nuclear Damping Technology. Obviously this is used inside the 
>barrel (And maybe for some distance outside it... remember, Nuclear Dampers 
>work at some range... on the order of 30,000 KM. Meson Screens are obviously 
>a special type of Nuclear Damper, specifically tuned to decay mesons. If you 
>can do that, you can surely do the opposite: Prevent them from Decaying, or 
>massively reduce their decay rate) in order to prevent your mesons from 
>decaying too early. Mesons are obviously generated, en-masse, by nuclear 
>damper style technology also, set up for very short range (i.e. meters, or 
>centimeters) but extremely powerful and finely controlled damper-style 
>fields. 

True, nuclear dampers do imply a lot of bizarre manipulations of decay
rates that it's very difficult to explain in a way that wouldn't prove
instantly lethal to all life.  Considering that pions are the primary
exchange particle of the strong force, nuclear dampers would be expected
to influence them.

Doesn't help much with the problem of 'mesons aren't notably penetrating
particles'.  Of course, explaining how nuclear dampers don't change the
laws of physics in ways that are instantly fatal to life is also a trick.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
Message-ID: <200204190857.BAA28058@ping.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>I was just looking at something called Electric Tokamak, and 
>I noticed that in one of the pictures, they were using 
>hydrogen plasma, and in a few others, helium plasma.  I 
>thought that this was strange, since no machine built yet 
>achieves a high beta (high enough to break even, that is).
>
>In their "introduction" section, they talk about the machine 
>being able to use "low-neutron yield fusion fuels" in the 
>future with this design.
>
>It makes me think that their intent in the end is to use 
>helium rather than hydrogen.

It probably is.  D-He3 is the easiest of the low-neutron fusion fuels
to ignite.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 03:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Apr 19 02:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>

On Friday 19 April 2002 09:45, you wrote:
> Brian Caball wrote:
> > Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the
> > barrel" problems: Nuclear Damping Technology.
>
> The only problem is, why doesn't a meson gun then function
> automatically as a perfect meson screen?  If you can prevent your
> mesons decaying over distances of up to millions of kilometres, why
> can't you ensure that the other guy's mesons don't decay within a
> range of twenty metres?

It's probably set to a long thin beam... hence the range. the manufacturers 
probably also supply the shorter range, general purpose, multidirectional 
meson screens. 

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 03:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 02:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020419190352.C3066@freeman.little-possums.net>

>  If you can prevent your mesons decaying over distances of up to
> millions of kilometres, why can't you ensure that the other guy's
> mesons don't decay within a range of twenty metres?

I just thought of an even more extreme example: meson communicators
function across *billions* of kilometres.  They should make you
completely immune to meson weapons if they can prevent decay at that
range.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 03:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 02:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net> <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020419192132.A3299@freeman.little-possums.net>

Brian Caball wrote:
> It's probably set to a long thin beam... hence the range. the
> manufacturers probably also supply the shorter range, general
> purpose, multidirectional meson screens.

But then why are meson screens so expensive and not perfectly
effective?  They don't need anywhere near as much coverage as a
multi-million kilometre beam, even if it is thin.  Covering a mere
starship should be utterly trivial by comparison.

On the other side of the issue, altering the decay properties of
mesons means that you don't actually need to fire anything at the
target: mesons are fundamental to the processes that hold nuclei
together.  Tamper with them, and every nucleus bigger than hydrogen
alters its energy to an extent that makes fusion look "slightly warm".

Just wave your "meson damper" over the target, then shut down your
sensors and get behind a sandcaster cloud before the flash reaches
you.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 05:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 04:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
Message-ID: <200204191113.ENR03407@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>
>With these advances, it looks like large-scale commercial 
>fusion power is only about twenty years away!
>;^>
>

That's what they said back in the 1970s
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 05:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 04:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204191118.ENS00157@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>
>No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!
>
>"Ah, the Disco Room!"
>

I would be happy to be Invisible Boy
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 05:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 19 04:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Andy Akins Still Around?
Message-ID: <3CC003DA.D3F8EBBE@earthlink.net>

Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Akins?

I'm trying to contact him re: his T4 ship design spreadsheet
but the andyakins@earthlink.net address from his website
keeps bouncing email.

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 6:46, Daniel Tackett wrote:

>   I'm almost of the opinion that
> > officers 
> > > should be enlisted first
> Amen to that. Was it ever like that though?

Not that I know of.

 Does anybody know when it stopped if it was? And Why?

The modern system has its origins in Medieval Europe, with knights 
evolving into the aristocratic officer class, etc.

> I think it instills elitism in the wrong kind of
> people and the wrong kind of people are less likely to
> be patient enough for a couple of years as a grunt.

That's also my feeling.

> Not to say that we don't have some fine officers now,
> but they still need to know what it's like to be
> treated like a pawn in a chess game. I doubt this
> ideology would work well for pilots though.

Pilots are made into officers for reasons of tradition and there's no 
real reason for them to be, no matter what they might say on this.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <B8E429CE.4E9EA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC0B25F.15316.840B8C@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 7:44, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Just bear in mind that there is a reason for the distance between
> officers and enlisted (speaking as one who has been both).  As
> officers you will be required to give orders to your men that will
> result in their death or maiming.  You will know this before hand. 
> It requires a certain detachment (at least for non-sickos) to order
> men to their deaths. 

However also remember that a platoon sergeant (the position, not the 
rank) will also have to do this at some point, and he will always (in a 
western style army, anyway) have 'come up', and should be close to his 
men. Likewise a Section Commander/Squad Leader will be very close to 
his men (and probably was 'one of the men' only a year previous), and 
yet they have to order their squad into deadly situations all the time.
 
> I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that an officer should be
> required to be enlisted first.  It's hard to say.  I've seen both
> kinds of officers, some good and some bad.  I've seen people who came
> up through the ranks have a hard time maintaining 'distance' from
> their people. Also, the duties of the two groups are very different. 

However the split between 'admin' (NCOs) and 'command' (officers) 
starts at the squad leader - 2IC level, and they're both NCOs.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418084245.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20020417200008.009f3500@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <3CC0B2AB.3922.85344E@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 8:44, Douglas Berry wrote:

> Wow. Thank you, and hope you enjoy shooting things with glee.  Just
> remember one rule. Never spend more than half you APP in your round,
> unless you are ambushing someone. Always leave enough to react to
> the other guy's move. 

I thought the rule was "Always ensure you're outside the ambush, firing 
in."

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:25:02 2002
Subject: Officer Candidates (was Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets)
In-Reply-To: <3CBF6DB5.E1C86E36@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <3CC0B556.15473.8FA124@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 20:07, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:

> I've long felt that not only should prior service be required, but that
> promotion to E-5 be required before acceptance into any officer training
> program. This, essentially, requires that the gentle serves at least one
> term as a grunt first. I've seen some who took the OCS test in the
> middle of basic who weren't any better than the ROTC things that we
> occasionally got stuck with. OTOH, pointers were far worse...  

I don't think I'd go so far as to require getting to E-5. What makes a 
good NCO isn't always the same thing that makes a good officer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020419125210.3554.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I want my money (along with my spleen) back.


Chalk up another virtual Keyboard kill to Doug.  I,
like others, have learned not to drink at the
computer, at least for this list.  And, yes, I may be
a day behind, but I got yesterday's project finished
before quitting time.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 09:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419192132.A3299@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
 <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
 <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419111058.040af780@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:21 AM 4/19/2002, Timothy Little wrote:
>Brian Caball wrote:
> > It's probably set to a long thin beam... hence the range.
>
>But then why are meson screens so expensive and not perfectly effective?
>On the other side of the issue, altering the decay properties of mesons 
>means that you don't actually need to fire anything at the target [...] 
>Tamper with them, and every nucleus bigger than hydrogen alters its energy 
>to an extent that makes fusion look "slightly warm".

Here's a non-canon, but possibly workable suggestion for you: what if a 
"meson gun" is basically a "laser" for the whatever-it-is that makes meson 
screens (presumably some variant of damper technology) work.  In this case, 
it's tuned to affect mesons so that the field causes a release of energy 
and radiation as atoms in the target break down.

Let's further postulate the following, for no particularly good reason than 
they make the "meson gun" work similarly to the way it is described in the 
Traveller canon:

- The weapon beam is laser-like, so that it is reasonably small and can 
affect targets at a great distance, but must be focused or tuned for 
maximum effect at a specific range.  Lower power beams are much easier to 
focus and control than high-powered ones, so that meson communicators can 
have a greater range than meson weapons.

- For whatever reason, only a tiny fraction of the atoms in the focus point 
of the beam are affected enough so that they break down. The higher the 
power of the beam, the greater the percentage of atoms that break down and 
the larger the release of energy.

- The breakdown of atoms in the beam is significantly enhanced by supplying 
radiation to "kick off" a chain reaction.  Therefore, weapons-grade meson 
guns fire some type of particle beam at the target as well.

- Meson screens interfere with the ability of the meson gun beam to cause 
atoms to break down.  This is not an "all-or-nothing" proposition; the 
screen interferes with but does not block the weapon beam, protecting the 
ship to a greater or lesser degree.

The canon Traveller explanation of how a meson gun works can then be 
thought of as a simplified explanation (similar to what you would get if 
you asked a present-day layman for an explanation of the sun's energy 
source), or a deliberate obfuscation on the part of the high-tech 
polities.  The net result is the same: the "conventional wisdom" describes 
the net effect of a meson gun beam relatively accurately, but misrepresents 
the underlying physics.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 09:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Andy Akins Still Around?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C365E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Try andy@leonidae.org.  I was in touch with him in March at that address.
Jesse
 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Smart [mailto:jurrubin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 4:48 AM
To: TML List
Subject: [TML] Andy Akins Still Around?


Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Akins?

I'm trying to contact him re: his T4 ship design spreadsheet
but the andyakins@earthlink.net address from his website
keeps bouncing email.

David Smart
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 09:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <20020418190346.B22643@4dv.net>
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
 <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net>

>Does AOL offer SMTP and (POP3 or IMAP) to its subscribers?  If so, you
>can use any mail client you wish.  I understand that Mozilla's is very
>good, for those who like GUI clients.

Not last I heard.  There was an alpha test of that using employees only a 
couple or three years ago and it wandered into a swamp and never came 
out.  Which is just as well, from AOL's point of view, since it was _only_ 
being made compliant with Micro$oft Outlook and was just another way for 
them to hand the reins of software control over to Micro$oft.  (The 
explanation for this thinking is that most of the good leadership at AOL 
have long since retired after they got rich on stock options.)

Leonard Erickson already pointed to the best answer I am aware of for 
Loren's original question.  That Web site gives both the official and the 
"unofficial" answer but they are both the same thing.  The unofficial 
answer reads to me like it was posted by an AOL tech support rep on his own 
page so that he could point customers to it instead of trying to explain it 
over the phone.

I still maintain an AOL account and my wife exclusively uses AOL when not 
at work, but neither of us have upgraded to version 7.0.  (I used to QA the 
AOL client software and have what I consider good reasons for avoiding 
upgrading.  She just hasn't got around to it yet.)  I will go ahead and 
install 7.0 and fiddle around with it once I get my own computer's 
motherboard and CPU replaced.  I'd rather not install anything new on my 
wife's puter.

With luck, I will find something more useful than that ridiculous 
workaround that is the official method.  I will post results here.

It's no wonder I got a world-class set of ulcers when I was working 
there.  :::shaking head sadly:::

--Laning
"I coulda been _somebody_.  I coulda been a _contender_." -Laning speaking 
about AOL's potential to be much better than what it's turned into.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226E9@USCHM203>

>Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always had trouble with 
>the idea of a line of seperately-designed launchers being required to fire 
>"sand", so I decided to just do away with them IMTU; allowing the typical 
>missile launcher to fire several different types of munitions; with "sand" 
>being used in its usual role as a screen to counter incoming missiles or 
>energy beam fire, as well as it acting as a fairly effective antipersonnel 
>weapon (Striker, bk2).
> -Ken Murphy-

Makes sense to me. IMTU, most sandcasters on smaller ships aren't even
mounted in turrets. They are placed on or in the hull  in various locations
for full coverage, and work similar to the smoke launchers on the turrets of
tanks or chaff launchers on ships and aircraft. There is no need to aim
them, or have any fire-control system other than a manual or automated
activation system.


Brian L. Hurrel
ICS Analyst
EDS
(973) 682-5578


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [Website Review] Elv's Traveller Pages
References: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris> <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net> <02041910580708.03729@avlendris> <5.1.0.14.2.20020419111058.040af780@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <003801c1e7bf$66b51dc0$6e00a8c0@imogen>

The Website Review
------------------

A little later than expected this time, but here is ...

    Elv's Traveller Pages (John G Wood)
    http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller

Most of this site has red text on a black background (a homage to
the LBB covers).  Although this colour scheme can get  irritating
to read it is image-lite  ...  so  pages  are  fast  loading.  In
keeping with the LBB style there are links from  the  front  page
to:

- Page 0. An Introduction To My Traveller Universe
- Page 1. Characters and Combat
- Page 2. Starships
- Page 3. Worlds and Adventures
- Supp. Forms and Charts

The "Introduction" page states  that  it  is  for  material  that
doesn't fit elsewhere.  So far there  are  only  2  pieces,  both
about  psionics.   First  is  a  "right  of  reply"  letter   ...
complaining at the pro-psionic bias  of  a  recently  transmitted
program.  Second is a psionic institute checklist:  based  on  T4
(local world attitute, presence of a psionic institute, how  many
students, campuses, etc).

The "Characters and Combat" page is empty.

The "Starships" page contains GT translations of some Hiver ships
from Alien Module 7 (Explorer, Trader, Embassy Ship, and Research
Cruiser).  There's also a link to a 400dton GTL10 Lighter, and to
a landgrab page (Prilissa/Trin's Veil).

The "Worlds and Adventures" has links to write-ups of  Ochre  and
Cymbeline (both in the Solomani Rim), a link to a formal landgrab
of Prilissa (Spinward Marches), and links to two sector write-ups
(Windhorn  and  Usingou).  The  Ochre  and  Cymbeline   write-ups
include both text and stats, and could qualify as landgrabs.  The
Prilissa write-up *is* a landgrab (albeit as yet unfinished)  ...
there is a large amount of text  and  stats,  and  some  graphics
(world map and system chart).  The sector write-ups are  "initial
development" and has  data  in  Galactic  SEC  and  Galactic  SAR
formats, a list of subsector names, and a micro-sized sector map.

The "Forms and Charts" page has a CC2 file of "IS Form 21" (world
grid), and Gal2CC (a utility that converts sector  and  subsector
maps from Galactic to CC2).  There are also 3 Word documents  for
use with T4 (PE Forms, Shipcards, and a system worksheet) bundled
into a 26K zip.

In summary: T4, GT, and  generic  resources,  wrapped  up  in  CT
style.  The sector write-ups try to be true to the DGP  dot  maps
of those sectors (good!).  And there is  generally  good  support
for Galactic.  This site also reports that it was last updated on
15-Mar-2002 (good, an active site).

Improvements:  The layout implies that  more  content  is  coming
soon ... as it stands at the moment the level  of  content  would
support folding in the main section pages into  the  front  page.
More content is always good.  With the prominance of Galactic  in
this site I would have expected a link to Jim  Vassilakos's  site
(where Galactic can be found).  I look forward to the  completion
of the landgrab  and  more  info  on  the  Windhorn  and  Usingou
sectors.



Regards PLST



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Dan's used HG2 space craft lot #3
Message-ID: <3CC0463F.35BDBF90@mail.cswnet.com>

Buy now, pay later! We have the best used ships this side of Canopus!

Destiny Star class luxury liner
These ships are usually only seen in high pop core sector worlds.
Occasionally, 1 or 2 find their way to the frontier, usually under
charter by the Imperial Navy. On very rare occasions, the ships are
chartered to assist in colonizing a planet.

Destiny Star class luxury liner
ship names include Magic Destiny, Andromeda Princess, Grandeur of the
Stars, Sovereign of the stars, the Queen Hera, etc.
RQ-Y3313G5-093307-90000-0  Mcr798505.54 standard 1.5million dt
            Y   Y Y      TL=13 Crew=13235 Security Troops=1500
            Z   Z Z      Y=250  Z=500
Jump Fuel=450,000dt Plant Fuel=45,000dt EP=45000 Agility=1
Additional fuel=5000dt Fuel scoops and purification plant aboard
Auxiliary Bridge=1 Model7Fib=10 Code3 meson screens=1
Code3 nuclear dampers=10  10dt Sandcaster batteries=500
100dt repulsor bays=500  10dt Laser batteries=500
One 3250dt large craft bay [for visiting spacecraft]
One 51400dt small craft bay, carries:
2000 TL13 20dt QB lifeboats and 100 TL13 95dt RY Shuttlecraft
Crew=13235 [officers=2590 Ratings=10645] Security Troops=1500
Standard Cargo=100,000dt Passenger Cargo=50,000dt
Ships Stores=26,280dt Passengers=50,000 [1 each per 4dt stateroom]
Non-standard items from GT Starports:
10,000dt park habitat modules=10 10,000dt plaza habitat modules=12

Could qualify using Bk6 stats if you fudge the tech level:
Destiny Star DS00468-D NI Va 600Na 

TL13 RY Shuttlecraft
RY-02033A1-030000-20000-0 Mcr37.775 standard  95dt
            2     1           TL=13 Crew=5
            2     1
Fuel=5.7 EP=2.85 Agility=1 
Bridge with 3 additional crew couches [5 total]
Cargo=25 Passenger couches=55
Crew=1pilot, 1gunner, 1medic/steward, 2 stewards.

TL13 QB Lifeboat
QB-0202211-000000-00000-0 Mcr8.8 standard 20dt
no weapons                          TL=13 Crew=1
Fuel=1 EP=.4 Agility=2 Emergency low berths=8 Cargo=4


Assiniboia class gunned cruiser
The pride of the Regina Colonial Navy
CG-K4117D3-050000-60C07-0 Mcr10726.44 10000dt
            5     2 1 3   TL=10 Crew=121
            5     2 1 3   Marines=40
Fuel=1700dt EP=700 Agility=1 Fuel scoops and Purification plant aboard.
50dt missle bays=3  2dt Sandcaster batteries=5
5dt laser batteries=2  4500dt typeC particle accelerator
Carries two 40dt pinnaces with 2 beam lasers, 1 sandcaster, plus
20 emergency low berths Mcr24.25  Pinnaces are listed in Supplement 7,
page 46. They are TL9.
Crew=121[25 officers and 96 ratings] Marines=40[2 officers, 38 troops]
1 VIP passenger possible  Cargo=543dt
A related version, the Bourbon class gunned cruiser, uses a needle
configured hull instead of a box, costs Mcr11326.244


The reconfigured series: D609 Aconit of the French Navy

This is one of those adapted wet navy designs, using Ken Picks'
"Miscellaneous Note: Adapting "Wet-navy" Ships" from "Beyond Book 2:
Expanding the Basic Classic Traveller Starship Design System", available
at the Freelance Traveller website. I kept strictly to HG2 for the
design, so I fudged a little bit on the AAA guns.

D609 Aconit
DD-81146D2-040000-42002-0  Mcr745.366  830dt
            1     11  3    TL10  Crew=26
            1     11  3     Marines=8
Fuel=381.3 Ep=49.3 Agility=4 Cargo=16.9
Crew=1pilot, 1navigator, 8 engineers, 8 gunners, 1 comm specialist,
1 computer specialist, 1 medic, 1 admin orderly. Marines=8


Plop Historical designs: The Chameleon

The Chameleon
Originally from the Star Trek animated series episode "More Trouble with
Tribbles," The Chameleon is Cyrano Jones' ship. This attempted
Travellerization uses details from FASA's Star Trek RPG, which had full
details including a small deckplan. Note: Some fudging went into this
one. Also, design uses "Deck Cargo: Using External Pods For Increasing
Cargo Capacity,"  by Ken Pick, available at Freelance Traveller.

The Chameleon
with 50 dt cargo module.
MS-1123331-000000-00000-0 Mcr94.462 150dt
no weapons                          TL=13 Crew=1
Fuel=34.5dt Ep=4.5 Agile=3 Fuel scoops only; no fuel plant
Model 3 computer. Air/raft=1 Storage=3dt
double stateroom=1 "a masters cabin with lounge"
Carries one special custom 50dt streamlined cargo module [module
cargo=40dt] Cargo module by itself costs Mcr11. 
Note that a normal customized 50dt streamlined cargo module costs
Mcr5.5.

The Chameleon
without 50dt cargo module
MS-1134431-000000-00000-0 Mcr83.462 100dt
no weapons                          TL=13 Crew=1
Fuel=34.5dt Ep=4.5 Agile=3 Fuel scoops only; no fuel plant
Model 3 computer. Air/raft=1 Storage=3dt
double stateroom=1 "a masters cabin with lounge"

Notes on the special custom 50dt streamlined cargo module.
Quoting from "Again, Troublesome Tribbles" by FASA, ?1983
Cyrano has installed "added controls, which allow the cargo module to be
jettisoned in space and exploded by remote control. The walls of the
cargo module are lined with reflective materials which will act on
sensors in a manner similar to radar "chaff", masking Cyrano's escape,
at increased speed, in an emergency."

For HG2 purposes, a declaration to jettison the cargo module must be
made in the launch phase. This has the following effects:
In the range determination phase, the player with Chameleon may open 
range by one level. If previously at short range, he may go to long
range. If at long range, he may opt to dissengage. For combat purposes,
treat the "chaff" as a single Code9 sandcaster battery, available for
one turn only. O^

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
How mesons are created: The stork brings em.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:49:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:49:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 12:08:07AM +1200
References: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost> <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com> <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020419104758.A24689@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 12:08:07AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> The modern system has its origins in Medieval Europe, with knights 
> evolving into the aristocratic officer class, etc.

I believe that various socialists tried the `elect officer from the
ratings, by the ratings' method.  It didn't work very well.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Try travelling from state to state in America without a driver's license
and proof of insurance, to be yielded up to the first uniformed
road-thug who demands it.                       --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CBF6B82.9FD041AE@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:

> > From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
> >
> > Heinlein is often invoked in the science fiction world as an example of
> > libertarian principles at work.  I don't know how many have read his story
> > 'Coventry', which was set inside a huge area cordoned off by the U.S. and
> > completely without laws.  Citizens of the U.S. who broke the law were
> > banished to Coventry to live among the other people who felt they didn't
> > need the law.  Contrary to the expectations of the rugged individualist who
> > starts the story about to enter Coventry, the people inside Coventry
> > evolved their own law, but one that was imposed by the biggest sharks in
> > the pool and not so kind and gentle as the law they had just left
> > behind.  This was Heinlein's story that most directly addressed the issue,
> > and with writer as judge of the conflict between different poliltical
> > systems, he clearly found in favor of the democratic one and against the
> > libertarian one.
> 
> Thank you for remembering this. I knew there was a quite well written
> refutation in his work but I had forgotten the name. 

That's NOT a refutation of libertarianism, it's a refutation of anarchy.
True anarchy doesn't exist; there will always be some sort of social
order, even if it's based in "the biggest bully wins".

Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.  

> As a fairly hard lefty (hey I am a member of the DSA.
> http://www.dsausa.org if you don't know them. Keep in mind that I keep
> that link  in my religion folder... ;') I had a difficult time
> understanding some of his works when I was a teen. The way "Coventry" is
> written makes it very clear that a democracy that passes things against
> his ideals is a better place to him than a tyrany that is exactly in
> line with his thought. It's also useful to understand that one can
> respect while disagreeing. 

Yes, but libertarianism is NOT tyranny or anarchy, and the society in
"Coventry" is NOT libertarian.  A libertarian social contract supports the
right to life (for persons who have been born), liberty, property,
privacy, and free association.

I would expect someone from a group as maligned as the DSA to be able to
understand the difference.

And it depends, doesn't it?  If a "democracy" decides to make just being
who you are illegal because their governing body is so constructed as to
think the right of the majority to decide what's legal should extend into
your bedroom, then you are in a tyranny, aren't you?  If a "democracy"
decides to attach more than half of your property suddenly due to a change
in the public opinion made manifest in law, then you are in a tyranny,
aren't you?

Kiri, lifelong RAH fan and mostly libertarian...

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019237432.7515.ajackson@ping>

Kiri Aradia Morgan writes:
> 
> That's NOT a refutation of libertarianism, it's a refutation of anarchy.

Well, a lot of the libertarians seem to be anarchists in disguise, though it's
true that they're not technically the same thing.
> 
> Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
> exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
> should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
> do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.

Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith.  Or the Libertarian
party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:10:22AM -0700
References: <3CBF6B82.9FD041AE@mailbag.com> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020419113915.A24789@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:10:22AM -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>
> A libertarian social contract supports the right to life (for
> persons who have been born), liberty, property, privacy, and free
> association.

I'd like to point out--solely to avoid misunderstanding--that there is
debate within libertarian circles regarding the personhood of those
yet unborn, and that this naturally colours perception of the rights
appertaining thereto.  Not going to mention my own thoughts, as they
have no business being here.

Otherwise I quite agree with Kiri's post.  Although I've not read the
story in question, it very much sounded not like an argument against
liberty but an argument against anarchy.  While some libertarians tend
towards minarchy, and some even towards anarchy, mainstream
libertarian thought recognises a) that government is evil b) that lack
of government is yet more evil.  Thus the question is not whether to
eliminate it (the answer to that is definitely not) but how to
constrain it so that it protects the liberty of its citizens from all
encroachment.

Anarchists care about encroachment by government; authoritarians care
about encroachment by individuals.  Libertarians care about both, and
seek to find the balance necessary to promote the most liberty for the
most individuals in the best way.

> And it depends, doesn't it?  If a "democracy" decides to make just being
> who you are illegal because their governing body is so constructed as to
> think the right of the majority to decide what's legal should extend into
> your bedroom, then you are in a tyranny, aren't you?  If a "democracy"
> decides to attach more than half of your property suddenly due to a change
> in the public opinion made manifest in law, then you are in a tyranny,
> aren't you?

That's why I've always found emphasis on democracy to be more than a
little foolish.  Certainly, it appears that democracy has the best
chance of ensuring liberty--but it is just as capable of ensuring
tyranny.  I don't care who rules or how, so long as I am free.  If a
king, an emperor or the Great Purple Poobah of Penglesh ensures my
liberties, I'll quite happily be a subject.

ObTrav: This naturally colours my view of the Imperium.  MTU is not
the one of the early LBB adventures with an Imperium out of Star Wars
and megacorps out of cyberpunk.  I latched onto statements such as the
Imperium ruling the space between stars and it having an interest in
free trade and developed a TU much rosier, I think, that many others'.
I'm afraid it doesn't overly resemble the OTU, as in mine un-feoffed
[is that a word?] worlds are much less common: almost every world is
in the posession of a noble.

But I'm an idealist:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert
that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by
themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.
                                                  --Thomas Jefferson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Akins)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Andy Akins Still Around?
In-Reply-To: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419174744.A20BC279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>

David Smart wrote:
>Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Akins?

I do :)

>I'm trying to contact him re: his T4 ship design spreadsheet
>but the andyakins@earthlink.net address from his website
>keeps bouncing email.

Yup, that address is gone. I bought my own domain (leonidae.org) and I'm 
operating from that now...

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>Try andy@leonidae.org.  I was in touch with him in March at that address.

You are correct sir!

For the record, if anyone is looking for my spreadsheets, they are now at 
www.leonidae.org/

I'm _slowly_ adding more stuff to that site, but its gonna take me a while.

	Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Akins)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>

Okay, I think this may be pretty complicated, and I wouldn't be surprised if 
the answer is "Can't be done" or "Too hard" or "Go pick up a $200 Orbital 
Dyanmics Textbook and figure it out..."

But...

...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of 
a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system from above, and the 
primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital parameters of the planet (orbital 
radius, eccentricity, orbital speed, reference point, etc) and the date.

I'd actually like to be able to do this for _the_ solar system, that is enter 
"Nov 16 1969" and be able to plot where the planets are on X,Y paper.

Now, I know that there are comercial astronomy programs (Red Shifft, etc) 
that can do this sort of thing...but I need to try and build this into a 
different program, so I gotta write the algorithm myself.

ARgh.

If anyone can lend me hand, or point me to a website, or tell me that I'm 
nuts, I'd appreciate it....

	Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:59:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:59:56 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1@aol.com>

--part1_74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>> Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
>> exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
>> should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
>> do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.
>
>Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith.  Or the Libertarian
>party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.

I've often found "minarchist" more useful than "libertarian." More
technically correct, and it hasn't been hijacked by anyone yet.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt;&gt; Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
<BR>&gt;&gt; exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
<BR>&gt;&gt; should not interfere in people's private lives: &nbsp;for instance, what they
<BR>&gt;&gt; do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt;Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith. &nbsp;Or the Libertarian
<BR>&gt;party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.
<BR>
<BR>I've often found "minarchist" more useful than "libertarian." More
<BR>technically correct, and it hasn't been hijacked by anyone yet.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C365F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Well, you ARE nuts, but I don't know if that's related to your current
project ;)
<ducking>

Jesse



<snip>
If anyone can lend me hand, or point me to a website, or tell me that I'm 
nuts, I'd appreciate it....

	Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:08:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:08:14 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <200204190855.BAA14300@ping.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20419.105906.7W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> True, nuclear dampers do imply a lot of bizarre manipulations of decay
> rates that it's very difficult to explain in a way that wouldn't prove
> instantly lethal to all life.  Considering that pions are the primary
> exchange particle of the strong force, nuclear dampers would be expected
> to influence them.
>
> Doesn't help much with the problem of 'mesons aren't notably penetrating
> particles'.  Of course, explaining how nuclear dampers don't change the
> laws of physics in ways that are instantly fatal to life is also a trick.

The only application of nuclear dampers I can think of where it would
*matter* that they were lethal is fixed screens around planetary
installations. 

Then again, they'd make far too good a "death ray" if they were. <sigh>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  Graphics Help
Message-ID: <20020419181048.28151.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

This is way off topic, but I was wondering if one of
the Graphic Guru's on the list would be willing to do
a little volunteer work for my son's baseball league. 
I'm beginning to work on their web site and I need to
get an emblem for them  I have some ideas, but I am
limited to MS Paint, and, well, that just don't cut
it. :)

Thanks,
Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20419.105906.7W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019240622.1051.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> The only application of nuclear dampers I can think of where it would
> *matter* that they were lethal is fixed screens around planetary
> installations. 
> 
> Then again, they'd make far too good a "death ray" if they were. <sigh>

Well, most obvious versions of nuclear dampers either have energy requirements
best measured in kilograms, or would tend to make matter explode and are well
suited to Death Star tricks.  Incidentally, even limiting ourselves to known
effects of nuclear dampers, they're well suited to producing nova-level flares
with a reasonable sized damper, focused to accelerate fusion, pointed at the
star.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
Message-ID: <20020419182536.82956.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

All the recent talk about jump drive and 100D limits
has gotten me thinking.  OK, the assumption first...

     The Jump Grid "erases" the effects of gravity/
     tidal force/whatever that would prevent a ship
     from being outside of its own 100D limit.

If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
have they discovered in regards to this test?

Might it be possible (if not practical) to exceed the
J-6 limit.  Immagine a J-6 small xboat jumping from
within the hull of a J-6 carrier.  Can we reach J-12,
J-36, or (gasp!) J-46,656 (6^6)?  This could be an
easy launch point for an "unusual" adventures.  As in
the following:


The Patron hires the players as a retrieval squad. 
Only later do they find out where the retrieval is. 
The have 3 J-6 ships.  The HUGE, the Medium, and the
small.  The Medium is designed to Jump twice and then
Slag the J-Drive.  It doesn't have anything else of
its own, simply a hull, fuel, and a J-6 drive.  The
Huge and Medium engage together with the Small in the
hull of the Medium (and the PC's in the Small).  The
Medium Jumps 46,656 parsecs into an unknown territory.
 The PC's have to retrieve the scientist who tested
the first ship and return by engaging the Medium and
Small J-6's at the same time to get home.

I know it isn't official canon (cannon?) or is it? 
Have all the research experiments from all the
research stations in the Imperium been posted to the
citizens?  Hmmm.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:33:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:33:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020419182536.82956.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019241046.5627.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> 
> If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
> HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
> during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
> entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
> stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
> have they discovered in regards to this test?

My suspicion would be 'both ships disappear'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>; from andy@leonidae.org on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:53:42PM -0500
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419130413.B24789@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:53:42PM -0500, Andy Akins wrote:
> 
> ...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of 
> a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system from above, and the 
> primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital parameters of the planet (orbital 
> radius, eccentricity, orbital speed, reference point, etc) and the date.

Well, for the simplest case assume that the planet is in a perfect
circular orbit around its star and that it started its orbit directly
`north' of that star.  Planet.period is the time it take to complete 1
rotation around the star.

orbit_degree(planet, time) = 360*time/planet.period mod 360

Then from orbit_degree it's fairly simple to determine where along the
circle the planet is.  For a very simple first approximation of a
planetary orbit, this is sufficient--for a slightly less simple an a
random deviation based on eccentricity.


It gets rather more complicated from there.

A real orbit is an ellipse, with the star being rotated around at one
of the focii (not really true, but close enough).

<http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html> should provide something
of a start.  I've gotten as far as determining the definitions of
major and minor axes in terms of eccentricity.  If one assumes that
the `average seperation' used in GT is the average of min and max
seperations, not the average distance over time, then the major axis
2a is simpy min_sep + max_sep, and the minor axis 2b =
2a*sqrt(1-ecc^2).

I don't recall which definition of average seperation GT uses.  I've a
nasty feeling that sometimes it's simply the average of min and max,
and sometimes it's an average over time.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty
clearly to protect political discourse.  But liberals reject the notion
that free speech is therefore limited to political topics, even broadly
defined.  True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself.
But why leap to the conclusion that a broadly worded constitutional
freedom (`the right of the people to keep and bear arms') is narrowly
limited by its stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away?
My New Republic colleague Mickey Kaus says that if liberals interpreted
the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest of the Bill of
Rights, there would be law professors arguing that gun ownership is
mandatory.       --Michael Kinsley Washington Post, January 8, 1990

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:10:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:10:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419145637.041a0f88@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:53 PM 4/19/2002, Andy Akins wrote:
>Okay, I think this may be pretty complicated [...] I would _really_ like a 
>formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of a planet.


I have a book (that's about 20 years old now) called _Practical Astronomy 
with Your Calculator_ that may be of use to you.  Particularly if you're 
going for gaming-accuracy approximations (rather than pointing a real 
telescope or navigating an actual spacecraft).  It appears to have been 
revised in 1990, and looks like it's still in print.  Go to Amazon.com, and 
punch in the title; it should come right up.

It's mainly aimed at the backyard astronomer, but I think there is enough 
information given to translate between the various coordinate systems, and 
provide the X,Y coordinates that you're asking for.  Also browsing through 
the astronomy section on Amazon, I saw _Fundamentals of Astrodynamics_, 
which is inexpensive and appears to be useful.

Good luck,


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

.
> 
> Pilots are made into officers for reasons of
> tradition and there's no 
> real reason for them to be, no matter what they
> might say on this.
> 
Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
or no reason for them to be grunts first?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>; from andy@leonidae.org on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:53:42PM -0500
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>

Here's some more info from the page I mentioned
<http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html>.  Assuming, once again,
that the standard orbital radius is the simple of min and max radii,
we have:

(1) min_sep + max_sep = 2a (the major axis; distance from one end of the
			   orbit to another)

(2) min_sep(planet) = planet.radius*(1-planet.ecc)

(3) max_sep(planet) = planet.radius*(1+planet.ecc)

and thus:

(4) major(planet) = 2*planet.radius

(5) semimajor(planet) = planet.radius

We also have a function returning current degree from `north':

(6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)

Given orbital_deg(), we can find distance from a focus by:

(7) radius(planet,time) = (semimajor(planet)*(1-planet.ecc^2)) /
    (1+planet.ecc*cos(orbital_deg(planet, time)))

And for an ellipse, where theta = orbital_deg(planet,time), r =
radius(planet, time) and c = semimajor(planet)*planet.ecc:

(8) x = c + r cos theta
(9) y = r sin theta

Which in our case reduces to:

(8a) x(planet, time) = semimajor(planet)*planet.ecc +
		       semimajor(planet)*(1-planet.ecc^2)

(9a) y(planet, time) = radius(planet, time) * orbital_deg(planet, time)

None of this has been tested outed, and I could very well be
wrong--I'm no physicist, and while I was a Math/CS major the emphasis
was on CS.  And I'm rusty.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A properly balanced sword is the most versatile weapon for close
quarters ever devised: a sword never jams, never has to be reloaded;
it is always ready.                               --Robert Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>

Paul Walker writes:
> 
> If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
> HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
> during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
> entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
> stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
> have they discovered in regards to this test?

I wouldn't recommend engaging a jump drive while sitting in the hold of a
ship already in jump-space. As far as the results of such an event, I would
assume a 99.9% chance of a catastrophic catastrophy.
Perhaps there'd be a One in a Trillion chance that the ship would end up
300,000 LY away in the Andromeda Galaxy (or at the exit 13A Toll Plaza on
the NJ Turnpike for that matter).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:41:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:41:30 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8E5C044.577B2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/19/02 12:32 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> or no reason for them to be grunts first?
> 

The Air Force doesn't have 'grunts'.  Didn't you know that?  They have
technicians (Excepting Para Rescue and a few other oddballs who'd probably
be happier in the Army or Marines. :)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:44:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:44:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1019245236.0.55880100@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Mr. Whipsnade posted:
>
<snip>
> As you all well know, I'm not the sharpest tool
> in the shed
<snip>

EXCUSE ME? After your "Colossus" posts detailing your alternate ending to the MT Rebellion, I'll be happy to debate your statement with you or anyone else.

That was a masterful piece of work, sir, and one that has become a permanent part of my MT campaigns. I haven't seen much of your other work but quality, not quantity, is the mark of excellence (as Imperium Games found out the hard way).

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020419113915.A24789@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191235301.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:10:22AM -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> >
> > A libertarian social contract supports the right to life (for
> > persons who have been born), liberty, property, privacy, and free
> > association.
> 
> I'd like to point out--solely to avoid misunderstanding--that there is
> debate within libertarian circles regarding the personhood of those
> yet unborn, and that this naturally colours perception of the rights
> appertaining thereto.  Not going to mention my own thoughts, as they
> have no business being here.

There is always going to be debate, but I'm talking about what nearly all
libertarians can agree on, which is that people who have been born have
the right to continue living, unless of course they are killed by someone 
who is defending themselves against their attack.
 
> Otherwise I quite agree with Kiri's post.  Although I've not read the
> story in question, it very much sounded not like an argument against
> liberty but an argument against anarchy. 

Exactly so.  But then, we usually agree about political matters, and we
both regard matters of religion as private.  :)

> While some libertarians tend towards minarchy, and some even towards
> anarchy, mainstream libertarian thought recognises a) that government
> is evil b) that lack of government is yet more evil.  Thus the
> question is not whether to eliminate it (the answer to that is
> definitely not) but how to constrain it so that it protects the
> liberty of its citizens from all encroachment.

Exactly.
 
> Anarchists care about encroachment by government; authoritarians care
> about encroachment by individuals.  Libertarians care about both, and
> seek to find the balance necessary to promote the most liberty for the
> most individuals in the best way.

That is the best explanation I've heard yet.  Might steal it for the quote
file if you don't mind.

> > And it depends, doesn't it?  If a "democracy" decides to make just being
> > who you are illegal because their governing body is so constructed as to
> > think the right of the majority to decide what's legal should extend into
> > your bedroom, then you are in a tyranny, aren't you?  If a "democracy"
> > decides to attach more than half of your property suddenly due to a change
> > in the public opinion made manifest in law, then you are in a tyranny,
> > aren't you?
> 
> That's why I've always found emphasis on democracy to be more than a
> little foolish.  Certainly, it appears that democracy has the best
> chance of ensuring liberty--but it is just as capable of ensuring
> tyranny.  I don't care who rules or how, so long as I am free.  If a
> king, an emperor or the Great Purple Poobah of Penglesh ensures my
> liberties, I'll quite happily be a subject.

I can certainly understand that, but whatever the government is, it should
have checks and balances.  The problem with monarchy is that it's usually
hereditary and there's no guarantee that a monarch who ensures our liberty
will be succeeded by another one just like him/her.

> ObTrav: This naturally colours my view of the Imperium.  MTU is not
> the one of the early LBB adventures with an Imperium out of Star Wars
> and megacorps out of cyberpunk.  I latched onto statements such as the
> Imperium ruling the space between stars and it having an interest in
> free trade and developed a TU much rosier, I think, that many others'.
> I'm afraid it doesn't overly resemble the OTU, as in mine un-feoffed
> [is that a word?] worlds are much less common: almost every world is
> in the posession of a noble.
> 
> But I'm an idealist:-)

Indeed.  I'm more of a cold, hard realist; my libertarianism springs from
the knowledge that if you give 200 million people a voice in your private
life, or what you can own, or what you can do with what you own, they'll
often take it... and feel justified in so doing, if you allow yourself to 
become dependent upon their largesse, enforced or not.... :)

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:51:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:51:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019245364.3010.ajackson@ping>

Robert A. Uhl writes:
> Here's some more info from the page I mentioned
> <http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html>.  Assuming, once again,
> that the standard orbital radius is the simple of min and max radii,

It's usually the semi-major axis, which is, yes, the average of min and max.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:56:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:56:13 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

laning wrote:
> 
>> Does AOL offer SMTP and (POP3 or IMAP) to its subscribers?  If so, you
>> can use any mail client you wish.  I understand that Mozilla's is very
>> good, for those who like GUI clients.
> 
> 
> Not last I heard.  There was an alpha test of that using employees only 
> a couple or three years ago and it wandered into a swamp and never came 
> out.  

Au contraire, mon frere....I am happily using Mozilla 0.9.9 right now, 
with the magic 1.0 release coming in about a month. It will be a rather 
well-behaved 1.0 release as well.

http://www.mozilla.org

Mozilla has been my main browser/mail application for over a year now, 
and I am quite pleased with it.

You might have seen it as Netscape 6.2...(same program with a Netscape 
theme) Netscape 6.0 was the MOzilla 0.7 or 0.8 release, was slow and had 
many bugs, but the current version is quite nice, and a good performer, imo.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:58:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:58:44 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019237432.7515.ajackson@ping>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419154608.00b8a5f0@urbin.net>

At 10:30 AM 4/19/02 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Kiri Aradia Morgan writes:
> > That's NOT a refutation of libertarianism, it's a refutation of anarchy.
>Well, a lot of the libertarians seem to be anarchists in disguise, though it's
>true that they're not technically the same thing.

Well, perhaps when viewed from a leftist lens.
Libertarians do not believe in a "Nanny State" that is the dream/goal of 
many dempublicans.
The Libertarianism is not anarchy. It is, as Kiri pointed out, a clearly 
defined social contract between the citizens of the state and the 
government they selected to run it.

> > Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
> > exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
> > should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
> > do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.
>Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith.  Or the Libertarian
>party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.

Hmm...I just stopped by <http://www.lp.org/> and read some position papers.
I agree with Kiri.  She just happened to pick and example of a single 
position that the ACLU happens to agree with the LP platform.

In fact, the LP web site lists the ACLU (along with a link) as an 
organization that also supports privacy rights.
I wonder if you can find a link to the Libertarian Party site anywhere on 
the ACLU site...


ObTrav: Nope...not going there...I vote this thread goes to the tml-chat list.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:02:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:02:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <DAV14zx4iXK3M38gh6y00018aa9@hotmail.com>

------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C1E7BA.B573E810
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Don't forge the influence of Rand on Libertarianism.
And of course, don't forget that the current Libertarian party leadership=
 fully believes in guilt by association. Consider the habits of Rand and =
the later writings of Heinlein and then consider what they say about Libe=
rtarians.

Of course, I like Norman Spinrad and his take on electronic democracy. :-=
P


Sam

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<HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Don't forge th=
e influence of Rand on Libertarianism.</DIV> <DIV>And of course, don't fo=
rget that the current Libertarian party leadership fully believes in guil=
t by association. Consider the habits of Rand and the later writings of H=
einlein and then consider what they say about Libertarians.</DIV> <DIV>&n=
bsp;</DIV> <DIV>Of course, I like Norman Spinrad and his take on electron=
ic democracy. :-P</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Sam</DIV=
></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:10:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:10:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419154608.00b8a5f0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019246981.7419.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:

> In fact, the LP web site lists the ACLU (along with a link) as an 
> organization that also supports privacy rights.
> I wonder if you can find a link to the Libertarian Party site anywhere on 
> the ACLU site...

Well, I can't find _any_ links to other organizations on the ACLU site, so no. 
You can find some court cases where the ACLU and the libertarian party were
co-defendants, however.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191235301.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:41:40PM -0700
References: <20020419113915.A24789@4dv.net> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191235301.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020419141527.A25183@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:41:40PM -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> There is always going to be debate, but I'm talking about what nearly all
> libertarians can agree on, which is that people who have been born have
> the right to continue living, unless of course they are killed by someone 
> who is defending themselves against their attack.

I'd phrase it as `libertarians believe that people have the right to
go on living, unless they do something to negate that right.'  By
leaving unsaid what a person is, and what can be done to negate that
right, we've a definition that just about anyone can, I think agree
to.  And then argue to their heart's content about the undefined
terms.  On another list...

> > Anarchists care about encroachment by government; authoritarians care
> > about encroachment by individuals.  Libertarians care about both, and
> > seek to find the balance necessary to promote the most liberty for the
> > most individuals in the best way.
> 
> That is the best explanation I've heard yet.  Might steal it for the quote
> file if you don't mind.

I don't believe in restricting non-deceptive quoting:-)

> I can certainly understand that, but whatever the government is, it should
> have checks and balances.  The problem with monarchy is that it's usually
> hereditary and there's no guarantee that a monarch who ensures our liberty
> will be succeeded by another one just like him/her.

Yep--that's why I said that democracy seems to be the best.  I wonder,
though, how a combined system would work.  A king, an aristocratic
house, a common house a democratic plebiscites.  Balance them all
against one another and with any luck once they'd gotten around to:
forbidding murder, rape, theft and fraud; establishing property and
privacy law; and funding the military, they'd just settle down into
fruitless doing nothing.

> Indeed.  I'm more of a cold, hard realist; my libertarianism springs from
> the knowledge that if you give 200 million people a voice in your private
> life, or what you can own, or what you can do with what you own, they'll
> often take it... and feel justified in so doing, if you allow yourself to 
> become dependent upon their largesse, enforced or not.... :)

That's why I like the idea of a government of men, not laws.  It's
dashed difficult to kill a law, but very easy to kill a man.  Being a
man, he knows this, and acts circumspectly.

See, there's one Emperor.  And a septillion sophonts out there.  He'd
better be doing his best not to alienate too many of them at any one
time.

This would, of course, lead to priority being given to worlds near
Capital, as they are the ones for which it is simplest to retaliate.
But to balance that fact IMTU there's a fairly active Moot, which
being made of equal representatives from across the Imperium tends to
level that voice out (much as in the US Colo. has nearly the same
voice in federal affairs that Va. has).  There's a balance between the
Emperor and the Moot such that for both the man and the entity the
best path is the way of least action.

Which in a government is a desirable thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To murder a man is much odious, to kill a woman is in manner unnatural,
but to slay and destroy innocent babes and young infants, the whole
world abhorreth, and their blood from the earth crieth for vengeance to
almighty God.                                    --Edward Hall, c. 1480

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV14zx4iXK3M38gh6y00018aa9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E5C9B9.577DC%listmom@travellercentral.com>

on 4/19/02 12:56 PM, Samuel Weiss at samwise1@msn.com wrote:
  
>Sam

Sam,

Please don't use styled text on the list.

Thanks

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019246981.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8E5CAD9.577E6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/19/02 1:09 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> 
> Well, I can't find _any_ links to other organizations on the ACLU site, so no.
> You can find some court cases where the ACLU and the libertarian party were
> co-defendants, however.

That doesn't say much. I seem to recall the ACLU and NRA being co-plaintiffs
recently.  

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020419202918.31056.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
> Paul Walker writes:
> > 
> > If this is the case, what would happen if there
> were a
> > HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump
> (or
> > during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
> > entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
> > stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
> > have they discovered in regards to this test?
> 
> I wouldn't recommend engaging a jump drive while
> sitting in the hold of a
> ship already in jump-space. As far as the results of
> such an event, I would
> assume a 99.9% chance of a catastrophic catastrophy.
> Perhaps there'd be a One in a Trillion chance that
> the ship would end up
> 300,000 LY away in the Andromeda Galaxy (or at the
> exit 13A Toll Plaza on
> the NJ Turnpike for that matter).

But why?  This is the second reply I got that said it
would be a bad thing and would probably destroy all
ships involved.  Is there any support for this?  I'm
not opposed to non OTU, but my original question was
whether there was anything in the official rules
and/or history to support or prevent such occurances?

Thanks,
Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>

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Sorry to take up space with this.

Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in stand=
ard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I have wrong=
?


Sam

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<HTML><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff" STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"=
><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Sorry to take up space with this.</DIV> <DIV>&nbs=
p;</DIV> <DIV>Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was=
 sent in standard format. I use arial as my font.<FONT color=3D#000000>&n=
bsp;What other setting&nbsp;might I have wrong?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;<=
/DIV> <DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] the handwaving is getting closer to real life
Message-ID: <200204192111.EOL06094@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Yet another variant on "quantum" something.

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2861822,
00.html
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:25:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:25:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191423490.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Samuel Weiss wrote:

> 
> Sorry to take up space with this.
> 
> Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in
> standard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I
> have wrong?

The fact that you HAVE a "font" setting means that you are using styled
text-- your mail client may be calling it "rich text" or HTML instead,
though.

Please turn it off.

Thanks,
Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419172919.00b89740@urbin.net>

Plain ASCII would be best.

At 04:37 PM 4/19/02 -0400, Samuel Weiss wrote:
>
>Sorry to take up space with this.
>
>Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in 
>standard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I have wrong?
>
>
>Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019240622.1051.ajackson@ping>
References: <20419.105906.7W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <ML-2.3.1019240622.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020420073353.A4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> they're well suited to producing nova-level flares with a reasonable
> sized damper, focused to accelerate fusion, pointed at the star.

I've always thought of them as affecting only isotopes that were
already unstable, essentially just modifying the probability that they
decay right there and then.  They can accelerate decay of radiocative
materials, or prevent it.  They can suppress a fission chain reaction
by preventing the decay of nuclei that have one too many neutrons, or
accelerate it by increasing the rate at which the fuel nuclei decay
initially.

IMTU, their effect on pure fusion is almost negligible.  If you could
project the field into the core of a star, you might be able to stop
some of the side-reactions based on decay of unstable isotopes, but
this would not have an immediate effect.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:39:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:39:13 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <B8E5CAD9.577E6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191434420.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/19/02 1:09 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Well, I can't find _any_ links to other organizations on the ACLU site, so no.
> > You can find some court cases where the ACLU and the libertarian party were
> > co-defendants, however.
> 
> That doesn't say much. I seem to recall the ACLU and NRA being co-plaintiffs
> recently.  

Well, that really ought to happen more often, given the fact that the ACLU
is supposed to be engaged in protecting the Bill of Rights.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:42:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:42:09 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net> <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020420074153.B4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Au contraire, mon frere....I am happily using Mozilla 0.9.9 right now, 
> with the magic 1.0 release coming in about a month. It will be a rather 
> well-behaved 1.0 release as well.

I think laning was referring to POP & IMAP test having wandered into a
swamp, not to Mozilla.  (Did mozilla even have functional mail a year
or three ago?)


> You might have seen it as Netscape 6.2...(same program with a
> Netscape theme) Netscape 6.0 was the MOzilla 0.7 or 0.8 release, was
> slow and had many bugs, but the current version is quite nice, and a
> good performer, imo.

Yes, I use Mozilla 0.9.9 as my everyday web browser.  I use mutt as my
email client.  Not because Mozilla's is bad, just because Mutt is
*good* and I often like to use it from work over a 56k connection :)
(In the words of the author -- "All mail clients suck.  This one just
sucks less.")


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:49:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:49:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020419202918.31056.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419164150.01eb9740@mail.qrc.com>

At 04:29 PM 4/19/2002, Paul Walker wrote:
>[Is] there was anything in the official rules and/or history to support or 
>prevent such occurances?

The specific situation - attempting to activate a jump drive while already 
in jump space - is (to the best of my knowledge) undefined in all versions 
of the Traveller rules.  Thus, in your Traveller universe you can have any 
sort of outcome you would like.  However, I believe Marc Miller is on 
record as saying on numerous occasions that any sort of controlled jump 
longer than 6 parsecs is flatly impossible in Traveller.

In every other case that is covered by the rules, attempting to do 
something unusual with a jump drive causes one of three results: either 
nothing happens, the ship misjumps, or is catastrophically destroyed.  Any 
of these would be appropriate, and destruction sounds most likely to me as 
well.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <20020420074153.B4777@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 07:41:53AM +1000
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net> <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020420074153.B4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020419155915.A25440@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 07:41:53AM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Yes, I use Mozilla 0.9.9 as my everyday web browser.  I use mutt as
> my email client.

Ditto on both counts here.  Mozilla is simply the best browser out
there (tabbed browsing has changed my web browsing habits for good).
Mutt is an excellent little MUA.

I have been considering using gnus or RMAIL to read mail, though.
Both are within emacs, and with a little bit of work on a few things
I'd never need to leave the great Editor-that-Is.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give
orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem,
pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently,
die gallantly.  Specialization is for insects.
                            --Robert Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420073353.A4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019253756.6212.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> I've always thought of them as affecting only isotopes that were
> already unstable, essentially just modifying the probability that they
> decay right there and then.

So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier around a
nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many nuclei, since the range
of the strong force is important), or you're altering the probability of
quantum tunneling (which I suspect would have dire effects on chemistry).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEHMDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi

You need to solve Kepler's Equations to get the "mean anomaly" and from that
determine the orbital coordinates.

It's not simple, the equation is something like E = msinE, so the answer is
also part of the equation, and the only real method of solution is to
iteration.

To get that far, you need to have five, maybe six values to define an
orbital path - argument of perihelion, longitude of ascending node,
inclination to ecliptic plane, semimajor axis, orbital eccentricity - and
the point in time (the "epoch") for which all of these apply. You will need
to be aware of time here, as astronomers use standard timescales to
eliminate issues associated with timezones etc, and also the difference
between the solar day and the sidereal (i.e. stellar day) of 3mins 56secs.

On top of that, orbits are perturbed by other planets and objects, and you
need to account for atmospheric effects (refraction) and lightspeed lag
(aberration) if you intend to draw a night sky view. If you want to do it
over a very long period, then you need to account for precession of orbital
nodes/elements as well.

However, I've written a Java Orrery for my RuneQuest campaign world that
accounts for all of the above, and can predict eclipses, various planetary
alignments, zodiacal houses and a few bits besides. With a bit of work it
could handle any solar system you like to imagine.

Mail me off list and I'll see what I can do.

Regards

Andy Brick

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 17/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
> .
> > 
> > Pilots are made into officers for reasons of
> > tradition and there's no 
> > real reason for them to be, no matter what they
> > might say on this.
> > 
> Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> or no reason for them to be grunts first?
> 
  >>
  Pilots are officers because the military does not
want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
why........

     MACessna
  >>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:43:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:43:27 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
 <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8e64cae2f75@[143.232.119.186]>

At 6:45 PM +1000 4/19/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>Brian Caball wrote:
>>  Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel"
>>  problems: Nuclear Damping Technology.
>
>The only problem is, why doesn't a meson gun then function
>automatically as a perfect meson screen?  If you can prevent your
>mesons decaying over distances of up to millions of kilometres, why
>can't you ensure that the other guy's mesons don't decay within a
>range of twenty metres?

This is close to the explination I've always used.  Meson guns 
contrive to produce mesons with a known lifetime though the use of 
technology related to what they use for nuclear dampers.

Why doesn't that make them also meson screens?  One answers is the 
limitations in word "related".  It can be related without having the 
same configuration you need for screen.  The second is that if the 
effect acts inside the weapon, then it would only act as a screen for 
mesons shot into the weapon.

If you want a full fledged screen, you have to set it up that way....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 17:43:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 19 16:43:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Message from John G. Wood -- [OT] New Gamer :)
Message-ID: <74.1b98a336.29f20575@aol.com>

Here's a message John has asked me to forward to the TML:


 >Folks,
 >
 >Some of you may remember me - I was a member of the list up until about
 >a  year ago, although never a prolific poster. Since many of you have 
 >expressed personal interest in the past, I've asked Michael to post
 >this  for me.
 >
 >Our son Isaac was born in the early hours of Friday 12th April,
 >weighing  in at 8lb 4oz (3.75kg) - everything went well, mother and
 >baby were home  by 7:30 *AM*, and we're settling into a new routine of
 >sorts. His big  sister May (two years old on the 17th) is fascinated by
 >him. I've put some  pictures up on the website at
 >http://www.elvwood.org/Family/BabyIsaac.html 
 >- larger versions are linked from the thumbnails.
 >
 >For those who care, my Traveller gaming has actually increased slightly
 > since I left the list. I got to meet (and play GURPS Traveller with) a
 >TML  member at GenCon UK [waves to Megan], then played two games of
 >classic at  Dragonmeet - where I also got to sign copies of _101
 >Corporations_, which  was a laugh.
 >
 >Take care all,
 >
 >John <john@elvwood.org> http://www.elvwood.org/Traveller/
 >
 >P.S. I recently updated the website; the Traveller section hasn't
 >changed  much but the GURPS section has expanded quite a bit.
 >
 >P.P.S. I also moved hosts. Using the Elvwood domain in links (rather
 >than  the actual site it points to) is best since I own it, so it won't
 >change.
 >

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020420102803.C4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Akins wrote:
> ...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y
> coordinates of a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system
> from above, and the primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital
> parameters of the planet (orbital radius, eccentricity, orbital
> speed, reference point, etc) and the date.

Go pick up a $200 orbital dynamics textbook and figure it out.  :)


That said, if you're willing to ignore interactions between planets,
you can get a reasonable approximation with simple trig functions.  It
won't give you enough accuracy to point a telescope at them, but it
will suffice for a 2D graphical display of a system.

Start with the semi-major axis 'a' (the average of closest and most
distant approach to the star), and the eccentricity 'e'.  You can work
out the period from this, using

 T = 2 pi / sqrt(G M / a^3),

where M is the mass of the star and G is the gravitational constant.
(Oddly enough, it does not depend upon the eccentricity).

The distance 'r' from the star at a given angle 'theta' from
perihelion is given by

  r = a (1 - e^2) / (1 + e cos theta)

So this gives you the shape of the orbit.  The position variation with
time is rather messier.  I couldn't find a formula anywhere, so I
built one myself:

Let 't' be the number of orbits (or fractional orbits).  Then

  theta = 2 arctan ((1+e) tan(pi t) / sqrt(1-e^2)).  (I hope)

So for any given time, you can work out theta and hence r.


The overview: use heliocentric coordinates, i.e. with the sun at 0,0.
Find the semimajor axis 'a' and eccentricity 'a' for the planet, and
some time 'T0' when it passed through perihelion.  Also find the
angular position of that perihelion 'theta0' (relative to your X
axis).  Calculate T.

Now for any given time T1, t = (T1 - T0) / T.  Work out theta based on
t, and r based on theta.  Let theta1 = theta + theta0.

Now, X = r cos theta1, Y = r sin theta1, and you're done!

Of course, I may have made all sorts of blunders in my calculations
here, I haven't had breakfast yet!  This algorithm is offered without
warranty, including the implied warranties of merchantability ... etc.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020420103427.D4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> We also have a function returning current degree from `north':
> 
> (6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)

This is a problematic formula.  The angle swept out by a planet in
orbit is not linear in time (which I'm guessing is what you meant).
It varies in a more complicated manner.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019253756.6212.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020420073353.A4777@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1019253756.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier
> around a nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many
> nuclei, since the range of the strong force is important), or you're
> altering the probability of quantum tunneling (which I suspect would
> have dire effects on chemistry).

The latter, but only for nucleons.  This should have virtually no
effect on chemistry, which depends exclusively on electron
wavefunctions.  It would have a an effect on fusion in cases where the
fusing plasma is only marginally hot enough.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEHMDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEHMDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020420104411.F4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Brick wrote:
> To get that far, you need to have five, maybe six values to define
> an orbital path - argument of perihelion, longitude of ascending
> node, inclination to ecliptic plane, semimajor axis, orbital
> eccentricity - and the point in time (the "epoch") for which all of
> these apply.

You don't need the longitude of the ascending node or the inclination
to ecliptic plane if you're just interested in a 2D planar system.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019263660.4086.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier
> > around a nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many
> > nuclei, since the range of the strong force is important), or you're
> > altering the probability of quantum tunneling (which I suspect would
> > have dire effects on chemistry).
> 
> The latter, but only for nucleons.

Aha, so we have magically targeted changes in the rules of quantum mechanics.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 19:08:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 18:08:15 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEHCGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Gee,

And to think I thought you just took a bunch on Quarks, 
stirred in just enough gluons and VOILA!!!!

Seriously once you get into that energy domain, chemistry
is the last thing you are worried about.


JML
"Now kids, make sure that your triggering charge fuses the Hydrogen 
Nuclei all at once."

A scene from the last episode of 'Fun with Chemistry'.


Subject: Re: [TML] How Mesons a

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier
> around a nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many
> nuclei, since the range of the strong force is important), or you're
> altering the probability of quantum tunneling (which I suspect would
> have dire effects on chemistry).

The latter, but only for nucleons.  This should have virtually no
effect on chemistry, which depends exclusively on electron
wavefunctions.  It would have a an effect on fusion in cases where the
fusing plasma is only marginally hot enough.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 19:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 18:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020420103427.D4777@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:34:27AM +1000
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net> <20020420103427.D4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020419191148.A25850@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:34:27AM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > We also have a function returning current degree from `north':
> > 
> > (6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)
> 
> This is a problematic formula.  The angle swept out by a planet in
> orbit is not linear in time (which I'm guessing is what you meant).
> It varies in a more complicated manner.

Well, it _was_ an off-the-cuff first approximation.  I understand that
it actually accelerates towards the star, zips around it, then slows
down as it flies away.  Which is something the opposite of what my
formula would do--it'd appear to move more quickly at the far end as
at the near bit.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I remember when everybody posted to Usenet with their real, deliverable
e-mail address.  Of all the sins committed by the spammers, destroying
the viability of the open Internet was the worst.
                      --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 19:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Fri Apr 19 18:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS TML SKILLS
References: <20020417145227.5577E279F2@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <19435.1019129225@www58.gmx.net>

Michael Hughes wrote:
> I love Megatraveller, but like all RPGers I changed it to taste. So for my
> system, which has a combo of MT & T4 skills, plus some of my own, any
> skill
> that is related gives a Synergy bonus. For example, I consider Computers
> and
> Robotics linked skills. If you have a Skill level of 2-3 you can add a DM
> of
> 1 to a linked skill, and if Skill level 4+ add 2. If you have more than
> one
> linked skill then you only add the highest bonus. 

Nice idea - I could propably implement something like that into starship
combat, where IMHO the human aspect is overruled by computers... 'synergyzing'
skills and computers would be more to my taste.

> I have found it works very well. I am more than happy to email to you if
> you're interested, along with the reworked task & generation rules. 

That would be superb :-)  I'm allways looking for new input, especially
regarding something that's been around as long as MT.
So feel free to use my upper adress...

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419191148.A25850@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEHFGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Off the top of my head.

As you know in a given amount of time a 
planet will sweep a constant area.  Assuming 
a reasonably non eccentric orbit this could 
be approximated as an rissoles triangle with 
each long arm being the orbital radius.  The 
planet would cover a distance of roughly 
the magic area divided by the orbital radius.  
At the beginning of the next time period the 
planet's radius is (old radius + ( eccentricity
* (Magic time/orbital period) * [ 1 if 
receding from the Sun, -1 if approaching the Sun]).  
You have all three sides so use the law of cosines
to extract the angle swept, accumulate it from your 
starting angle to find the new angle.  Repeat this 
until you get to the time you want.

You only have  to calculate to half an orbit. 
If you supply the area, the starting angle, and 
the starting radius in addition to the normal 
information and you only need generate its radius 
and angle when a ship is jumping.

Unfortunately I can't see off the top of my head 
a quick way to extract the correct orbital radius 
and angle at any arbitrary time without recursion 
and a number of calculations


Yes, I realize that this will break down close to 
the primary and with eccentric orbits.

jml

Given what I recall doing in high school shop class,
I'm not all that certain that letting secondary students learn 
recombinant DNA techniques is all that good an idea.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:34:27AM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > We also have a function returning current degree from `north':
> > 
> > (6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)
> 
> This is a problematic formula.  The angle swept out by a planet in
> orbit is not linear in time (which I'm guessing is what you meant).
> It varies in a more complicated manner.

Well, it _was_ an off-the-cuff first approximation.  I understand that
it actually accelerates towards the star, zips around it, then slows
down as it flies away.  Which is something the opposite of what my
formula would do--it'd appear to move more quickly at the far end as
at the near bit.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I remember when everybody posted to Usenet with their real, deliverable
e-mail address.  Of all the sins committed by the spammers, destroying
the viability of the open Internet was the worst.
                      --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>

At 03:35 PM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Pilots are officers because the military does not
>want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
>flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
>though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
>the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
>arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
>that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
>wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
>why........

That being said, during WWII the Germans used enlisted pilots, as did the 
RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying sergeants, since they thought 
there was no reason to tie up perfectly good officers in what was 
essentially a technical skill.  That died as carriers came to the fore, and 
more Marines came to be stationed on ships. Many of the old Flying 
Sergeants received reserve commissions as officers, while retaining their 
permanent rank as enlisted men.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019263660.4086.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1019263660.4086.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020420121558.A5360@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Aha, so we have magically targeted changes in the rules of quantum
> mechanics.

Yes, that's the one :)

It goes well with the magical reactionless thrusters (or magical
HEPlaR), magical jump drive, magical meson beams, magical gravity
suppression, magical artifical gravity, and magical computer viruses.
After that, you've got the *real* magic of the Ancients' stuff...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419192446.021e1ec0@mail.verizon.net>

Hi Larsen,

Try searching for the term   "table of organization and 
equipment"   (include the surrounding quotes). I had a lot of hits when 
taking that approach.  Sorry for putting this on the web, but I can't 
contact you offlist without an email address.  :-)

Best regards and happy surfing!

Charles


At 01:45 AM 4/19/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
>     Could some kind soul please contact me off-List with some links to 
> sites that list various combat formation TO&Es?  I've tried Google until 
> my eyes crossed with no avail.  As you all well know, I'm not the 
> sharpest tool in the shed and my surfing abilities suffer as a consequence.
>     The recent TML thread discussing unit TO&Es and the well deserved 
> praise for Mr. Berry's accomplishments regarding them in GT:GF gave me 
> cause to flush all the unit descriptions in my "Dirty Little War" project.
>     Specifically, I'm interested in TO&Es from the turn of the last 
> century, say the 1905/Russo-Japanese War to 1918/Great War range.  This 
> implies large squad automatic weapons, clunky AFVs, and early combat aircraft.
>     Thank you.
>
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Larsen
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
>http://www.hotmail.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEHIGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

So did the Japanese fleet arm, so did the Soviets during the
early part of the war.

I think putting officers in charge of planes is mainly the cool
factor.  The person actually steering any navy ship is an EM
I believe, rather low of the totem pole too.  Larsen can correct
me if I'm wrong

OB TrAV
If you think about there is little difference between a Grav Tank and a
fighter at high enough TL's.  Does anyone seriously think it's just
officers driving all those grav tanks.

jml
______________________
Military -- Bangs for the Buck
Hunters  -- Bucks for the Bang
______________________
:
:
:

That being said, during WWII the Germans used enlisted pilots, as did the
RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying sergeants, since they thought
there was no reason to tie up perfectly good officers in what was
essentially a technical skill.  That died as carriers came to the fore, and
more Marines came to be stationed on ships. Many of the old Flying
Sergeants received reserve commissions as officers, while retaining their
permanent rank as enlisted men.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:36:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:36:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
References: <20020420004404.79A6F279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008201c1e814$658fd700$265d8690@computer>

> From: Michael Cessna
>   Pilots are officers because the military does not
> want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....

No.  The 'pilots are officers' thing dates all the way back to the
beginnings of military aviation.

The logic, presumably, was that a pilot was a gentleman and an educated
professional, of a higher social class to the mere tradesmen and mechanics
that worked on the ground.

There have been exceptions - "Flight Sergeants" occasionally served as
pilots in WWII.

Winston Churchill's comments on Naval Tradition apply to the traditions of
other services too, to a considerable extent.  Don't try to find present day
logic in them.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!

He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.

What I want to know is:
a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
Science?
b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?
c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:40:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:40:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <008301c1e814$662e8800$265d8690@computer>

> From: "Andy Brick"
> Do you really still generate worlds with just the basic rules ? Or do you
> use the World Builder's Handbook, or Book 6, or First In ?

Actually, I do just use the basic rules.  I also often hand tweak them, but
it's data from Book 3 that I am tweaking.

I also am in the process of developing my own world gen system.  It's
basically a simplified version of Book 3 that gives a narrower set of
results.  Of course, this is for a game that treats systems as essentially
synonymous with their major starports and startowns, plus a bit of tactical
space out to the 100D limit.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
References: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419223354.02274a00@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:01 PM 4/19/2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
>That being said, during WWII the Germans used enlisted pilots, as did the 
>RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying sergeants [...]

As did the U.S. Army Air Forces.  Among many others, there was a young 
mechanic named Chuck Yeager who volunteered for the USAAF version, and were 
also eventually commissioned (that Yeager fellow went on to break the 
"sound barrier" and eventually a Generals' star).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEHJGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Now that would be one Heck of a major
Imagine selling it to your faculty advisor 
(If I pull this off, you'll never have to 
worry about funding)
Imagine your senior project (take over an 
undistinguished Midwestern college)


jml
And then there is the sister school, 'ol Miskatonic U
(motto, where student pranks are the least of your problems)


> From: Douglas Berry
> No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!

He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.

What I want to know is:
a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
Science?
b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?
c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419224704.024bf070@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:34 PM 4/19/2002, Alan Bradley wrote:
>b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?

I believe Transylvania Polygnostic University (Trans-Poly U, motto: "Know 
Enough to be Afraid") offers undergraduate and graduate degrees in both.

>c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

I dunno, but Girl Genius is one heck of a comic book, if you're at all into 
Evil Medicine and Mad Science.  See: http://www.steamenginetime.com/


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F262jQlc7vtdFq7ImxU00001228@hotmail.com>

From: Charles McKnight <res0i3sf@verizon.net>

     Try searching for the term "table of organization and equipment"   
(include the surrounding quotes).


Mr. McKnight,

     Thanks for the tip.  As way of illustrating my dearth of research 
skills, I've been mindlessly typing "TO&E" into various search engines.  I 
never thought to actually SPELL the acronym out!  Did I mention that my head 
comes to a point?

     "Sorry for putting this on the web, but I can't contact you offlist 
without an email address.  :-)"

     Yet another example of typical Whipsnadian brain flatulence.  I ask the 
kind folk of the TML to contact me off-List and then neglect to provide the 
address.  Did I mention that my head comes to a point?
     Thanks again for your help.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <F55rVycmnh1OcA5ZWae0000d381@hotmail.com>

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>

     "I dunno, but Girl Genius is one heck of a comic book,..."



Mr. Wildstar,

     Perhaps the finest comic book series of the last half century is "Reid 
Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman".
     The seminal work gave us such lines as "I'm not bald, I get my hair cut 
this way." and "Seventy nine cents or I piss on your flowers."  Surely, the 
last alone puts "Fleming" in the canon of timeless Western literature.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <F55rVycmnh1OcA5ZWae0000d381@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:20:23AM +0000
References: <F55rVycmnh1OcA5ZWae0000d381@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020419212734.A1287@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:20:23AM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> 
>      Perhaps the finest comic book series of the last half century is "Reid 
> Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman".
>      The seminal work gave us such lines as "I'm not bald, I get my hair cut 
> this way." and "Seventy nine cents or I piss on your flowers."  Surely, the 
> last alone puts "Fleming" in the canon of timeless Western literature.

Now if I could only lay my hands on an issue.  Are they still in print?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In love, she who gives her portrait promises the original.  --Bruton 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204200336.EOZ00886@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>Subject: Re: [TML] Radioactivity Rules  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:20:23AM +0000, Larsen E. 
>Whipsnade wrote:
>> 
>>      Perhaps the finest comic book series of the last half 
>>century is "Reid 
>> Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman".
>>      The seminal work gave us such lines as "I'm not bald, 
>>I get my hair cut 
>> this way." and "Seventy nine cents or I piss on your 
>>flowers."  Surely, the 
>> last alone puts "Fleming" in the canon of timeless Western 
literature.
>
>Now if I could only lay my hands on an issue.  Are they 
still in print?
>
>-- 


I still like my Flaming Carrot.  It reminded me of me - but 
instead of comic books, it was reading and re-reading 
Traveller books and supplements continuously until I had 
brain damage.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:58:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:58:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Some Info...
In-Reply-To: <OF98BD72DE.DB3A42D5-ON85256B9F.005EA550@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEOAHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

William Lane wrote :
> do we have any Aeronautical Engineers on the list?

I'm primarily avionics, but I was cross-trained so I could be
ground crew for the RNZAF aerobatic team.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 23:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 19 22:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEOPHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> On 18 Apr 2002 at 6:46, Daniel Tackett wrote:
> The modern system has its origins in Medieval Europe,
> with knigh's evolving into the aristocratic officer
> class, etc.

Actually, it went the other way.
Peasants were given commissions from the crown so that they could
order around knights and other nobles, or so that lower ranking
nobles with better tactical capabilities could order around
higher-ranking nobles.

Commissions were actually a practical way of dealing with the
military problems involved in your military hierarchy being the
same as the hierarchy of your hereditary nobility.

> > I think it instills elitism in the wrong kind of
> > people and the wrong kind of people are less likely to
> > be patient enough for a couple of years as a grunt.
>
> That's also my feeling.

There is an extremely fine speech on leadership given by the then
commanding officer at Fort Sheridan, Major C.A. Bach,  who also
"came from the ranks" that is just as relevant today as when it
was given at the turn of the century. I'll see if I can dig out a
copy and post it, as while parts of it  are a little
anachronisitic, the core concepts, I believe, fit well with
Traveller's "Rule by men, not laws"

> > Not to say that we don't have some fine officers now,
> > but they still need to know what it's like to be
> > treated like a pawn in a chess game. I doubt this
> > ideology would work well for pilots though.
>
> Pilots are made into officers for reasons of tradition
> and there's no real reason for them to be, no matter
> what they might say on this.

It's not tradition. The Air Force (any air force) is too young to
have traditions. <grin>

Pilots in the New Zealand Air Force are currently, and have been
for the last twenty odd years or so, officers so that they can
order around grunt officers when they are on their aircraft (the
same reason that a Naval officer is always put in charge of any
ship carrying troops, even though you don't have to be an officer
to command a ship in the Navy), and also because we've got so few
of them that it would be difficult if one or two were enlisted
and the others weren't, as they wouldn't be able to (legally)
drink together.

The RNZAF had sergeant pilots druring World War II, and also
during the Malaysian 'adventure'.

In a larger air forces, including the U.K., the US, and the USSR,
and especially in combat wings, not all pilots are (or were)
officers. It's possible all UK pilots are now officers, seeing as
the UK has also been reducing it's spending, but there were
sergeant and warrant officer pilots in the R.A.F. definitely as
late as the fifities, and also in the US Army Air Corp in Vietnam
in the late sixties/early seventies, to mention examples where I
have personal knowledge.

However all pilots AFAIK have had rank of some sort, the lowest
I'm aware of is "corporal" pilots in Soviet Frontal Aviation.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 23:45:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 19 22:45:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020419212734.A1287@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOPHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

As I promised in another post here is the text of a speech on
leadership given by Major C.A. Bach
While parts of it are a little anachronistic, the core concepts,
I believe, fit well with Traveller.

Know Your Men, Your Business and Yourself
by Major C. A. Bach, US Army

In a short time each of you men will control the lives of a
certain number of other men. You will have in your charge loyal
but untrained citizens, who look to you for instruction and
guidance. Your word will be their law. Your most casual remark
will be remembered. Your mannerism will be aped. Your clothing,
your carriage, your vocabulary, your manner of command will be
imitated.

When you join your organization you will find there a willing
body of men who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that
will command their respect, their loyalty and their obedience.
They are perfectly ready and eager to follow you so long as you
can convince them that you have those qualities. When the time
comes that they are satisfied you do not possess them you might
as well kiss yourself goodbye. Your usefulness in that
organization is at an end.

From the standpoint of society, the world may be divided into
leaders and followers. The professions have their leaders, the
financial world has its leaders. We have religious leaders, and
political leaders, and society leaders. In all this leadership it
is difficult, if not impossible, to separate from the element of
pure leadership that selfish element of personal gain or
advantage to the individual, without which such leadership would
lose its value.

It is in the military service only, where men freely sacrifice
their lives for a faith, where men are willing to suffer and die
for the right or the prevention of a great wrong, that we can
hope to realise leadership in its most exalted and disinterested
sense. Therefore, when I say leadership, I mean military
leadership.

In a few days the great mass of you men will receive commissions
as officers. These commissions will not make you leaders; they
will merely make you officers. They will place you in a position
where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
attributes. But you must make good - not so much with the men
over you as with the men under you.

Men must and will follow into battle officers who are not
leaders, but the driving power behind these men is not enthusiasm
but discipline. They go with doubt and trembling, and with an
awful fear tugging at their heartstrings that prompts the
unspoken question, &#8220;What will he do next?&#8221;

Such men obey the letter of their orders but no more. Of devotion
to their commander, of exalted enthusiasm, which scorns personal
risk, of their self-sacrifice to ensure his personal safety, they
know nothing. Their legs carry them forward because their brain
and their training tell them they must go. Their spirit does not
go with them.
Great results are not achieved by cold, passive, unresponsive
soldiers. They don't go very far and they stop as soon as they
can. Leadership not only demands but receives the willing,
unhesitating, unfaltering obedience and loyalty of other men; and
a devotion that will cause them when the time comes to follow
their uncrowned king to bell and back again if necessary.

You will ask yourselves "Of just what, then, does leadership
consist? What must I do to become a leader? What are the
attributes of leadership and how can 1 cultivate them?"

Leadership is a composite of a number of qualities. Among the
most important I would list self-confidence, moral ascendancy,
self-sacrifice, paternalism, fairness, initiative, decision,
dignity, courage.

Let me discuss these with you in detail.

Self-confidence results, first, from exact knowledge, second, the
ability to impart that knowledge and, third, the feeling of
superiority over others that naturally follows. All these give
the officer poise.

To lead, you must know, you may bluff all your men some of the
time, but you can't do it all the time. Men will not have
confidence in an officer unless he knows his business, and he
must know it from the ground up.

The officer should know more about paperwork than his first
sergeant and company clerk put together, he should know more
about messing than his mess sergeant, more about diseases of the
horse than his troop farrier. He should be at least as good a
shot as any man in his company.

If the officer does not know, and demonstrates the fact that he
does not know, it is entirely human for the soldier to say to
himself, "To hell with him. He doesn't know as much about this as
I do", and calmly disregard the instruction received.

There is no substitute for accurate knowledge. Become so well
informed that men will hunt you up to ask questions - that your
brother officers will say to one another, "Ask Smith - he knows".

And not only should each officer know thoroughly the duties of
his own grade, but he should study those of the two grades next
above him. A two-fold benefit attaches to this. He prepares
himself for duties which may fall to his lot at any time during
battle; he further gains a broader viewpoint which enables him to
appreciate the necessity for the issuance of orders and join more
intelligently in their execution.

Not only must the officer know, but he must learn to stand on his
feet and speak without embarrassment.
1 am told that in British training camps student officers are
required to deliver ten-minute talks on any subject they may
choose. That is excellent practice. For to speak clearly one must
think clearly; and clear, logical thinking expresses itself in
definite, positive orders.

While self-confidence is the result of knowing more than your
men, moral ascendancy over them is based upon your belief that
you are the better man. To gain and maintain this ascendancy you
must have self-control, physical vitality and endurance and moral
force.

You must have yourself so well in hand that, even though in
battle you are scared stiff, you will never show fear. For if you
by so much as a hurried movement or a trembling of the hand, or a
change of expression, or a hasty order hastily revoked, indicate
your mental condition it will be reflected in your men in a far
greater degree.

In garrison or camp many instances will arise to try your temper
and wreck the sweetness of your disposition. If at such times you
&#8220;fly off the handle&#8221; you have no business to be in charge of men.
For men in anger say and do things that they almost invariably
regret afterwards.

An officer should never apologise to his men., also an officer
should never be guilty of an act for which his sense of justice
tells him he should apologise.

Another element in gaining moral ascendancy lies in the
possession of enough physical vitality and endurance to withstand
the hardships to which you and your men are subjected, and a
dauntless spirit that enables you not only to accept them
cheerfully but to minimise their magnitude.

Make light of your troubles, belittle your trials, and you will
help vitally to build up within your organization an esprit whose
value in time of stress cannot be measured.

Moral force is the third element in gaining moral ascendancy. To
exert moral force you must live clean, you must have sufficient
brain power to see the right and the will to do right.

Be an example to your men. An officer can be a power for good or
power for evil. Don&#8217;t preach to them - that will be worse than
useless. Live the kind of life you would have them lead, and you
will be surprised to see the number that will imitate you.

A loud-mouthed, profane captain who is careless of his personal
appearance will have a loud mouthed, profane, dirty company.
Remember what I tell you. Your company will be the reflection of
yourself. If you have a rotten company it will be because you are
a rotten captain.

Self sacrifice is essential to leadership. You will give, give
all the time. You will give of yourself physically, for the
longest hours, the hardest work and the greatest responsibility
is the lot of the captain. He is the first man up in the morning
and the last man in at night. He works while others sleep.

You will give of yourself mentally, in sympathy and appreciation
for the troubles of men in your charge. This one&#8217;s mother has
died, and that one has lost all his savings in a bank failure.
They may desire help, but more than anything else they desire
sympathy.

Don&#8217;t make the mistake of turning such men down with the
statement that you have troubles of your own, for every time that
you do you knock a stone out of the foundation of your house.
Your men are your foundation, and your house leadership will
tumble about your ears unless it rests securely upon them.

Finally, you will give of your own slender financial resources.
You will frequently spend your money to conserve the health or
well being of your men or to assist them when in trouble.
Generally you get your money back. Very infrequently you must
charge it to profit and loss.

When I say that paternalism is essential to leadership I use the
term in its better sense. I do not now refer to that form of
paternalism which robs men of initiative, self-reliance, and
self- respect. I refer to the paternalism that manifests itself
in a watchful care for the comfort and welfare of those in your
charge.

Soldiers are much like children. You must see that they have
shelter, food, and clothing, the best that your utmost efforts
can provide. You must be far more solicitous of their comfort
than of your own. You must see that they have food to eat before
you think of your own, that they have each as good a bed as can
be provided before you consider where you will sleep. You must
look after their health. You must conserve their strength by not
demanding needless exertion or useless labour.

And by doing all these things you are breathing life into what
would be otherwise a mere machine. You are creating a soul in
your organization that will make the mass respond to you as
though it were one man. And that is esprit.

And when your organization has this esprit you will wake up some
morning and discover that the tables have been turned; that
instead of your constantly looking out for them they have,
without even a hint from you, taken up the task of looking out
for you. You will find that a detail is always there to see that
your tent, if you have one, is promptly pitched, that the most
and the cleanest bedding is brought to your tent; that from some
mysterious source two eggs have been added to your supper when no
one else has any, that an extra man is helping your men give your
horse a super grooming, that your wishes are anticipated, that
every man is Johnny-on-the-spot. And then you have arrived.

Fairness is another element without which leadership can neither
be built up nor maintained. There must be first that fairness
which treats all men justly. I do not say alike, for you cannot
treat all men alike - that would be assuming that all men are cut
from the same piece; that there is no such thing as individuality
or a personal equation.

You cannot treat all men alike; a punishment that would be
dismissed by one man with a shrug of the shoulders is mental
anguish for another. A company commander, who for a given offence
has a standard punishment that applies to all is either too
indolent or too stupid to study the personality of his men. In
his case justice is certainly blind.

Study your men as carefully as a surgeon studied a difficult
case. And when you are sure of your diagnosis apply the remedy.
And remember that you apply the remedy to effect a cure, not
merely to see the victim squirm. It may be necessary cut deep,
but when you are satisfied as to your diagnosis don&#8217;t be divided
from your purpose by any false sympathy for the patient.

Hand in band with fairness in awarding punishment walks fairness
in giving credit. Everybody hates a human hog.
When one of your men has accomplished an especially creditable
piece of work, see that he gets the proper reward. Turn heaven
and earth upside down to get it for him. Don&#8217;t try to take it
away from him and hog it for yourself. You may do this and get
away with it, but you have lost the respect and loyalty of your
men. Sooner or later your brother officers will hear of it and
shun you like a leper. In war there is glory enough for all. Give
the man under you his due. The man who always takes and never
gives is not a leader. He is a parasite.

There is another kind of fairness - that which will prevent an
officer from abusing the privileges of his rank - when you exact
respect from soldiers be sure you treat them with equal respect.
Build up their manhood and self-respect - don&#8217;t try to pull it
down.

For an officer to be overbearing and insulting in the treatment
of enlisted men is the act of a coward. He ties the man to a tree
with the rope of discipline and then strikes him in the face,
knowing full well that the man cannot strike back.

Consideration, courtesy, and respect from officers towards
enlisted men are not incompatible with discipline. They are parts
of our discipline. Without initiative and decision no man can
expect to lead.

In manoeuvres you will frequently see, when an emergency arises,
certain men calmly give instant orders which later, on analysis,
prove to be, if not exactly the right thing, very nearly the
right thing to have done. You will see other men in emergency
become badly rattled; their brains refuse to work, or they give a
hasty order, revoke it; give another, revoke that; in short, show
every indication of being in a blue funk.

Regarding the first man you may say &#8220;That man is a genius. He
hasn&#8217;t had time to reason this thing out. He acts intuitively&#8221;.

Forget it.

&#8220;Genius is merely the capacity for taking infinite pains&#8221;.

The man who was ready is the man who has prepared himself. He has
studied beforehand the possible situation that might arise, he
has made tentative plans covering such situations. When he is
confronted by the emergency he is ready to meet it.

He must have sufficient mental alertness to appreciate the
problem that confronts him and the power of quick reasoning to
determine what changes are necessary in his already formulated
plan. He must have also the decision to order the execution and
stick to his orders.

Any reasonable order in an emergency is better than no order. The
situation is there. Meet it. It is better to do something and do
the wrong thing than to hesitate, hunt around for the right thing
to do and wind up by doing nothing at all. And, having decided on
a line of action, stick to it. Don&#8217;t vacillate. Men have no
confidence in an officer who doesn't&#8217;t know his own mind.

Occasionally you will be called upon to meet a situation which no
reasonable human being could anticipate. If you have prepared
yourself to meet other emergencies which you could anticipate the
mental training you have thereby gained will enable you to act
promptly and with calmness.

You must frequently act without orders from higher authority.
Time will not permit you to wait for them. Here again enters the
importance of studying the work of officers above you. If you
have a comprehensive grasp of the entire situation and can form
an idea of the general plan of your superiors, that and your
previous emergency training will enable you to determine that the
responsibility is yours and to issue the necessary orders without
delay.

The element of personal dignity is important in military
leadership. Be the friend of your men, but do not become their
intimate. Your men should stand in awe of you - not fear. If your
men presume to become familiar it is your fault, not theirs. Your
actions have encouraged them to do so.

And, above all things, don&#8217;t cheapen yourself by courting their
friendship or currying their favour. They will despise you for
it. If you are worthy of their loyalty and respect and devotion
they will surely give all these without asking. If you are not,
nothing that you can do will win them.

And then I would mention courage. Moral courage you need as well
as physical courage- that kind of moral courage which enables you
to adhere without faltering to a determined course of action
which your judgement has indicated as the one best suited to
secure the desired results.

Every time you change your orders without obvious reason you
weaken your authority and impair the confidence of your men. Have
the moral courage to stand by your order and see it through.

Moral courage further demands that you assume the responsibility
for your own acts. If your subordinates have loyally carried out
your orders and the movement you directed is a failure, the
failure is yours, not theirs. Yours would have been the honour
had it been successful. Take the blame if it results in disaster.
Don&#8217;t try to shift it to a subordinate and make him the goat.
That is a cowardly act.

Furthermore you will need moral courage to determine the fate of
those under you. You will frequently be called upon for
recommendations for the promotion or demotion of officers and
non-commissioned officers in your immediate command.

Keep clearly in mind your personal integrity and the duty you owe
your country. Do not let yourself be deflected from a strict
sense of justice by feelings of personal friendship. If your own
brother is your second lieutenant, and you find him unfit to hold
his commission, eliminate him. If you don&#8217;t, your lack of moral
courage may result in the loss of valuable lives.

If, on the other hand, you are called upon for a recommendation
concerning a man whom, for personal reasons you thoroughly
dislike, do not fail to do him full justice. Remember that your
aim is the general good, not the satisfaction of an individual
grudge.

I am taking it for granted that you have physical courage. I need
not tell you how necessary that is. Courage is more than bravery.
Bravery is fearlessness - the absence of fear. The nearest dolt
may be brave, because he lacks the mentality to appreciate his
danger; he does&#8217;t know enough to be afraid.

Courage, however, is that firmness of spirit, that moral
backbone, which, while fully appreciating the danger involved,
nevertheless goes on with the undertaking. Bravery is physical;
courage is mental and moral. You may be cold all over, your hands
may tremble; your legs may quake; your knees be ready to give
way - that is fear. If, nevertheless, you go forward; if in spite
of this physical defection you continue to lead your men against
the enemy, you have courage.

All physical manifestations of fear will pass away. You may never
experience them but once. They are the &#8220;buck fever&#8221; of the hunter
who tries to shoot his first deer. You must not give way to them.

A number of years ago, while taking a course in demolitions, the
class of which I was a member was handling dynamite. The
instructor said regarding its manipulation &#8220;I must caution you
gentlemen to be careful in the use of these explosives. One man
has but one accident.&#8221; And so I would caution you. If you give
way to the fear that will doubtless beset you in your first
action, if you show the white feather, if you let your men go
forward while you hunt a shell crater, you will never again have
the opportunity of leading those men.

Use judgement in calling on your men for display of physical
courage or bravery. Don&#8217;t ask any man to go where you would not
go yourself. If your common sense tells you that the place is too
dangerous for you to venture into; then it is too dangerous for
him. You know his life is as valuable to him as yours is to you.

Occasionally some of your men must be exposed to danger which you
cannot share. A message must be taken across a fire-swept zone.
You call for volunteers. If your men know you and know that you
are &#8216;right&#8217; you will never lack volunteers, for they will know
your heart is in your work, that you are giving your country the
best you have; that you would willingly carry the message
yourself if you could. Your example and enthusiasm will have
inspired them.

And lastly, if you aspire to leadership, I would urge you to
study men. Get under their skins and find out what is inside.
Some men are quite different from what they appear to be on the
surface. Determine the workings of their minds.

Much of General Robert E. Lee&#8217;s success as a leader may be
ascribed to his ability as a psychologist. He knew most of his
opponents from West Point days, knew the workings of their minds,
and he believed that they would do certain things under certain
circumstances. In nearly every case he was able to anticipate
their movements and block the execution.

You do not know your opponent in this war in the same way. But
you can know your own men. You can study each to determine
wherein lies his strength and his weakness; which man can be
relied upon to the last gasp and which cannot.

~~~~~~~

The document I have ends here, though it looks like perhaps there
should be a little more to it.

A note attached to the copy I have reads :
"C. A. Bach enlisted in the Thirteenth Minnesota Infantry of the
National Guard and served as a sergeant with the regiment in the
Philippines. Promoted to a Lieutenancy in the Thirty-sixth US
volunteer Infantry, he transferred in the Regular Establishment
as a first lieutenant in the Seventh Cavalry and advanced therein
to his majority.

His analysis of how to be a leader &#8211; an address delivered to the
graduating officers of the Second Training Camp at Fort
Sheridan - so moved the Reserve officers of his battalion, that
they besieged him for copies. The Waco (Texas) &#8216;Daily Times
Herald&#8217;, learning of the great interest the speech had aroused,
obtained a copy and printed it verbatim in January 1918.

A copy of the speech was inserted in the Congressional Record by
Senator Henrik Shipstead of Minnesota in November 1942, and
printed as Congressional Document 289. All of us who were NROTC
students at the University of Washington in 1943 were given
copies and, since the document is no longer in print, may I urge
you to reprint, in its entirety, what is generally regarded as
the best composition on &#8216;Leadership&#8217; ever recorded?&#8221;

I received this document from a Warrant Officer with whom I
served, W.O Brian Reid, one who also ended up getting a
commission as a Squadron Leader, and became the T.O of RNZAF base
Wigram shortly before it was closed for flying duties.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 00:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 23:21:03 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420000950.04392b20@rollanet.org>

>
>
>That's why I've always found emphasis on democracy to be more than a
>little foolish.  Certainly, it appears that democracy has the best
>chance of ensuring liberty--but it is just as capable of ensuring
>tyranny.  I don't care who rules or how, so long as I am free.  If a
>king, an emperor or the Great Purple Poobah of Penglesh ensures my
>liberties, I'll quite happily be a subject.

"In contradiction," answered signor Ottaviano, "I will deploy just one 
argument, namely, that there only three forms of sound government: 
monarchy, the rule of the good (in the ancient world called the optimates) 
and government by the citizens. And the degenerate and lawless forms taken 
by these systems when they are ruined and corrupted are, in place of 
monarchy, tyranny, in place of the best, government by a few powerful men, 
and in place of the citizens, government by the common people, which wrecks 
the constitution and surrenders complete power to the control of the multitude.

--excerpt from The Book of the Courtier (1528) by Baldesar Castiglione
translated 1967 by George Bull

It's an old debate.


--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 00:23:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 23:23:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <B8E5C044.577B2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420003838.0435ca70@rollanet.org>

At 02:38 PM 4/19/02, you wrote:
>on 4/19/02 12:32 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> > or no reason for them to be grunts first?
> >
>
>The Air Force doesn't have 'grunts'.  Didn't you know that?  They have
>technicians (Excepting Para Rescue and a few other oddballs who'd probably
>be happier in the Army or Marines. :)
>
>--

They do have those base security teams that get a whopping whole two weeks 
of ground combat training. I've even heard that during some part of those 
two weeks the trainees actually sleep in real tents on the ground.


------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com

Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.

--John Ciardi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 03:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 20 02:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020420004404.79A6F279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16yrdg-0001rp-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

"Samuel Weiss" <samwise1@msn.com> wrote:

> Don't forge the influence of Rand on Libertarianism.
> And of course, don't forget that the current Libertarian party
> leadership fully believes in guilt by association. Consider the habits of Rand
>  and the later writings of Heinlein and then consider what they say about
> Libertarians.
 
I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and 
that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually 
fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine 
sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas 
all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.

Libertarianism is in itself an oddly changeable term.  It was 
originated in (IIRC) the first few decades of the 20th century (maybe 
the 1920s) as a name fo Anarchists that avoided the negative label.

By the 1960s and early 1970s is was a (by modern standards) 
fairly leftist organization that promoted ideas like legalized drugs 
and Milton Freidman's proposal for a negative income tax (a brilliant 
proposal that was deemed by the then libertarians to be both fair 
and as an excellent method for eliminating poverty).  In the late 
1970s and early 1980s the libertarian movement was transformed 
into an organization that had far more of a focus on cutting taxes 
and preserving private property rights at all costs, in essence it 
went from primarily promoting social changes to promoting 
economic ones.  Having talked to some older (and rather bitter 
libertarians, it seems clear that at least part of the change in the 
movement came from outsiders co-opting the party (although some 
of the change was also internal).  

ObTrav, in several hundred years it would be interesting to note 
how various organizations have changed. A Feudal Technocracy 
could easily go from being a technocratic meritocracy to being a 
static and rigid system of technological oriented castes and still 
maintain the same designation.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  

  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 06:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat Apr 20 05:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16yrdg-0001rp-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <003801c1e868$a68e21e0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of
sneadj@mindspring.com
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 02:58
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism


Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
eliminate poverty?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 08:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 20 07:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b@aol.com>

--part1_8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b_boundary
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> I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and 
> that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually 
> fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine 
> sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas 
> all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.

Heinlein was, by all accounts, a minarchist - he believed that
government was a necessary evil. Insofar as you can discover his
political stance from his writings he wasn't an anarchist at all (and
he *certainly* wasn't a fascist :-/). I think his political views were
built out of faith in the soldier's virtues, along with nostalgia for the
kind of Western-frontier society that was already dying out when
he was born.

Rand was actually not a libertarian, and held libertarians in disdain.
Mostly because the people using the label at the time were much
into legalizing narcotics, as you point out. I suppose you could
also call her a minarchist, although to be sure she arrived at that
position through some of the strangest ethical notions I've ever
come across. She did have one or two useful insights, but for the
most part she strikes me as the last and most vocal advocate for
Social Darwinism.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and 
<BR>&gt; that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually 
<BR>&gt; fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine 
<BR>&gt; sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas 
<BR>&gt; all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.
<BR>
<BR>Heinlein was, by all accounts, a minarchist - he believed that
<BR>government was a necessary evil. Insofar as you can discover his
<BR>political stance from his writings he wasn't an anarchist at all (and
<BR>he *certainly* wasn't a fascist :-/). I think his political views were
<BR>built out of faith in the soldier's virtues, along with nostalgia for the
<BR>kind of Western-frontier society that was already dying out when
<BR>he was born.
<BR>
<BR>Rand was actually not a libertarian, and held libertarians in disdain.
<BR>Mostly because the people using the label at the time were much
<BR>into legalizing narcotics, as you point out. I suppose you could
<BR>also call her a minarchist, although to be sure she arrived at that
<BR>position through some of the strangest ethical notions I've ever
<BR>come across. She did have one or two useful insights, but for the
<BR>most part she strikes me as the last and most vocal advocate for
<BR>Social Darwinism.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 08:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 20 07:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
Message-ID: <200204201431.EPV00623@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Frank Pitt
<snip long post>

The most important quality I saw that was necessary and often 
missing in officers was the ability to properly delegate.

This bit of advice comes down through history in the form of 
the world's first recorded advice from a father-in-law, from 
Jethro, to his son-in-law Moses.

If you can't delegate, you can't lead.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 09:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Apr 20 08:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freelance Traveller is now Fan Site of the Week at RPGNews!
Message-ID: <o913cukv513imfb9up0a45fmfejbbava7u@4ax.com>

I just checked the site (http://www.rpgnews.rpghost.com/fansite.php) and
Freelance Traveller is the featured site right now!

:)

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 10:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 20 09:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEHJGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420084435.009e89f0@mindspring.com>

At 07:40 PM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > From: Douglas Berry
> > No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!
>
>He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
>superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.
>
>What I want to know is:
>a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
>Science?

Mad Science, I'd say.. he seemed to be more the engineer type.

>b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?

Illuminati Univeristy.

>c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

Fnord.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 11:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sat Apr 20 10:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420003838.0435ca70@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <20020420171222.30654.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

> >
> >The Air Force doesn't have 'grunts'.  Didn't you
> know that? 
 Yes, I was using the term loosely in reference to
enlisted personnel.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 11:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Apr 20 10:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204201736.g3KHaCP25223@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 00:08:07 +1200
>Subject: Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
...
>>   I'm almost of the opinion that officers 
>> > > should be enlisted first
>> Amen to that. Was it ever like that though?
>
>Not that I know of. 

  Arguably this applied in certain periods of 
Roman history, and perhaps in some other classical
armies (where maybe only members of the right
classes might act as commanders, but far from all
of those eligible would fight except as ordinary
soldiers).

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 12:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Apr 20 11:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>
References: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3cc06819.475761@post.demon.co.uk>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:

>     Specifically, I'm interested in TO&Es from the turn of the last=20
>century, say the 1905/Russo-Japanese War to 1918/Great War range.  This=20
>implies large squad automatic weapons, clunky AFVs, and early combat=20
>aircraft.

No on-line sources, I'm afraid, but my copy of the World War One
Sourcebook ISBN 1-85409-351-7 has lots of the information you're
looking for.  As an example, this is the TO&E of a British Infantry
division in 1918:

Three infantry brigades, each comprising three battalions and a trench
mortar battery. (so 9 infantry battalions and 3 mortar batteries
total).

The platoon was the basic manoeuvre unit.  It was divided into 4
sections (with 6-10 people each) plus a light machine gun section
(Lewis guns) and headquarters section (officer, NCO, 2 runners).  One
of the infantry sections was made up of specially-trained bombers
(grenadiers).

=46our platoons plus a headquarters unit made up a rifle company.

=46our companies plus an HQ unit made up a battalion.  Earlier in the
war the battalion HQ unit included a heavy machine gun section
(Vickers); these guns were later withdrawn and concentrated at
divisional level.  A battalion was nominally 977 rifles, 36 Lewis
guns.

It was standard practice for a battalion to leave behind a cadre of
troops before going into action (the "battle surplus") so the unit
could be rebuilt if it suffered major losses.

Three battallions made up an infantry brigade.  By 1918, a brigade
also included a trench mortar battery (eight 3" mortars each).

Three brigades made up a division.  (ie, 9 infantry battalions).

The division also included the following support elements:

Artillery: Two artillery brigades, with a total of six field batteries
(six 18-pounder guns each) and two howitzer batteries (six 4.5"
howitzers each).
(Earlier in the war divisions had more artillery, this was later
concentrated at corps and army level).

Two batteries (six 2" mortars each) of trench mortars.
One battalion (4 companies) of heavy machine guns. (each company with
16 Vickers guns, 64 total)

Three companies of engineers. (each with 217 men, 18 vehicles, 33
bicycles and a pontoon)
One battalion of pioneers.

Staff, signals company, three field hospitals, 21 motor ambulances,
veterinary section, employment company, divisional train (four
companies), ammunition column.
A division had 822 vehicles including 44 motorcycles and 11 motor
cars.  And, presumably, lots of horses.

Divisions were organised into corps, usually of two divisions.  Four
or five corps made up an army.

Tanks were organised into brigades, each of two battalions.  A
battalion (36 tanks) was made up of three companies, each divided into
three 4-tank sections.  Each company also had a "spare section" of 4
tanks in reserve.

Aircraft were attached at corps or army level for reconnaissance and
artillery spotting duties.


Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 12:31:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 20 11:31:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <200204201431.EPV00623@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E701D4.5797E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/20/02 7:31 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> The most important quality I saw that was necessary and often
> missing in officers was the ability to properly delegate.
> 

A problem not restricted to them either.  I sometimes wonder if the
anti-officer bias here comes from the fact that most of the prior service
were enlisted.  I've seen it from both sides.  I've seen my share of idiot
NCOs and some highly stracked Officers.  And the reverse.  I personally
don't see any great advantage in officers having served as enlisted first.

I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me with a special
insight when I had my own platoon.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 13:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat Apr 20 12:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] travlib 0.6.2
Message-ID: <20020420130659.A28851@4dv.net>

This is a message for the programmers on the list.  If you're not a
programmer, I doubt that this will be of much interest to you.

Well, once again it's time to announce another subminor release of
travlib.  This release is in many ways an aesthetic release, as
attractive code is invariably better than ugly code.  Indeed, the
corrections were inspired by mass lossage in certain parts of what I
had written.  The code base has been shrunk to 10,504 LOC, down from,
IIRC some 12-15 KLOC.  A smaller code base is a more maintainable code
base.

The most visible two correction are the regularising of both
constructor return types and the manner in which children of an object
are accessed.  As for the first, every _new() now returns a
TravMapobject*.  This is much more like the standard gtk+ way of doing
things than before, and is considerably simpler from a user
perspective.

Regarding the second, the correct way to access the children of an
object is to call trav_mapobject_get_children(),
trav_mapobject_set_children(), trav_mapobject_add_child() and
trav_mapobject_remove_child().  No more messing with
trav_galaxy_get_sectors(), trav_sector_add_subsector(),
trav_planet_set_moons() &c.  These are all logically related
activities, and it makes sense that a single suite of functions be
used.  I am going to add trav_mapobject_add_children() and
trav_mapobject_remove_children() eventually.

A side effect of this is that the children of e.g. a star are its
planets and its companion stars, and that the children of a planet are
its governments and moons.  The user can either call
trav_mapobject_get_children() and filter them on his own, or call the
appropriate class-level function.  In these cases they'd be,
respectively, trav_non_dwarf_star_get_planets(),
trav_star_get_companions(), trav_planetary_object_get_governments()
and trav_planet_get_moons().  Note that not all of these have been
written.

There has also been some slight progress with the Scheme GURPS
Traveller: First In object generation.  Nothing major yet, as
travtrack really needs to be in a more advanced state for generation
to be testable/usable &c.

On the travtrack front, I am busily working away on the galaxy and
sector browsers.  I've created a GenericBrowser base class which is
working pretty decently so far, and is much better than my old ad hoc
nonsense.  These changes are all in CVS; they've yet to be released.

The website, as ever, is <http://travtrack.sf.net/>.  If you just wish
to download files, I'd suggest <http://sf.net/projects/travtrack/>.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe
what you just said.                           --William F. Buckley, Jr.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 13:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Apr 20 12:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
References: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8e76dfb3ac3@[198.123.22.170]>

At 12:34 PM +1000 4/20/02, Alan Bradley wrote:
>  > From: Douglas Berry
>>  No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!
>
>He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
>superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.
>
>What I want to know is:
>a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
>Science?
>b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?

Illuminati University of course....

>c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

If you have to ask, you wouldn't survive....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Apr 20 13:11:02 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420000950.04392b20@rollanet.org>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420000950.04392b20@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <3cc1ca9e.6194791@post.demon.co.uk>

Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org> writes:

>--excerpt from The Book of the Courtier (1528) by Baldesar Castiglione
>translated 1967 by George Bull
>
>It's an old debate.

Even older than that, since Castiglione was simply paraphrasing
Aristotle's 'Politics' written in about 340 BC...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 14:13:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 20 13:13:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
Message-ID: <200204202010.EQF02707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>
>I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me 
>with a special insight when I had my own platoon.
>

I think it's better to find out that someone can't delegate 
when they're an NCO (or even a corporal) rather then after we 
waste the money to make them an officer.

Of course, I don't believe that leadership can be "taught".  
Talent in this area can be nurtured, grown, and refined, but 
never "taught".  If you can't lead or delegate to begin with, 
no amount of training is going to make a difference.

One other area of "talent" that isn't easily remedied by 
training - tactical ability, and an ability to implement that 
tactical brilliance in your platoon. All platoon drills 
aside -- can you and your men really fight?  I remember 
watching platoons turning into indecisive, sleep-deprived 
zombies because no one in the chain of command, officer or 
nco, could get it all together.  There's nothing more 
unnerving to me than watching a platoon in training mill 
around in my scope when a few of them are hit with MILES 
gear.  Watching the men peep their heads in and out of the 
woodline like idiots.  Officers and NCOs scratching their 
heads and having a committee meeting to decide what to do.  I 
even remember a fat platoon sergeant ambling out into the 
open, looking up and down the danger space, trying to figure 
out where I was.

Not all platoons were this bad, thank God.  But there were 
some like that.  And I put the blame not only on the LT, but 
on the NCOs in the platoon.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 16:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 20 15:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
Message-ID: <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>

--part1_155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Hi,
   Looking for alien stats for Traveller (CT/MT) the other day on the WWWeb, 
I ran across a pretty extensive (and frankly, kind of frightening as well) 
list of Traveller-related aliens, and was wondering if folks might be able to 
help me out with stats for several species that looked pretty interesting. 
   Adduxar: Carnivorous reptilians from the Zhodani book.
   Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.
   Brinn: Spider/Crablike mix from TravDigest 12.
   Ebokin: An Octopoid from The Traveller Adventure.
   Sambiqys: Red-zoned Androids from JTAS 24.
   Murians: Stocky and hirsuite from Vanguard Reaches.

   Now I'm not looking for a huge writeup or career tables or anything like 
that; merely the information on rolling up the creature's stats (+any natural 
armor or natural weapons)
   Thanks in advance :)
   Boy, if BITS or someone knocked out a 101 Aliens that'd be compatible with 
CT/MT, I know I'D sure buy it  :)

  -Ken Murphy-
   

--part1_155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Looking for alien stats for Traveller (CT/MT) the other day on the WWWeb, I ran across a pretty extensive (and frankly, kind of frightening as well) list of Traveller-related aliens, and was wondering if folks might be able to help me out with stats for several species that looked pretty interesting. 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Adduxar: Carnivorous reptilians from the Zhodani book.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Brinn: Spider/Crablike mix from TravDigest 12.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Ebokin: An Octopoid from The Traveller Adventure.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Sambiqys: Red-zoned Androids from JTAS 24.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Murians: Stocky and hirsuite from Vanguard Reaches.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Now I'm not looking for a huge writeup or career tables or anything like that; merely the information on rolling up the creature's stats (+any natural armor or natural weapons)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks in advance :)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Boy, if BITS or someone knocked out a 101 Aliens that'd be compatible with CT/MT, I know I'D sure buy it &nbsp;:)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 18:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat Apr 20 17:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>

This from the JTAS Online article:

Jgd in Play
Jgd should only be played and handled as NPCs; in the unlikely event of any
PC interacting with one on a personal, violent level, a typical specimen has
ST 12, DX 10, IQ 12, and HT 12/25. Their tough outer integument gives them
PD 2 and DR 5, and they can have a Move and Dodge of about 4. Their internal
gas-bags make them highly vulnerable to penetrating attacks under some
circumstances, but their internal structures are complex and robust; they
never simply "burst."

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of MurfNMurf@aol.com


  Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.

  Now I'm not looking for a huge writeup or career tables or anything like
that; merely the information on rolling up the creature's stats (+any
natural armor or natural weapons)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 18:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 20 17:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] living space
Message-ID: <200204210036.EQN01344@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Just comparing a recent ship design of mine to a current 
nuclear submarine.

It looks like a modern nuclear submarine allocates far, far 
less living space that we allocate in Traveller.  In what 
appears to be the same length of hull (length of living 
quarters space), with a known beam (10 meters in the case of 
the sub, 20 meters in the case of the Traveller ship).

In roughly 176 Traveller displacement tons, the sub has over 
129 crew.  And this is being generous: part of this space is 
taken up by bridge and torpedo tubes.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 18:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr 20 17:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net>

Swordy wrote:
> Jgd should only be played and handled as NPCs;

<rant>
What?  Why should *any* character be restricted to "GM only"?  Yes, I
do include the Emperor here, having played in a campaign which had PCs
of about the same level of power.  This seems to make rather gross
assumptions about what sort of games people are playing.  I suppose
the article didn't bother to give much in the way of game information
for this race, on the pretext that "players won't ever need it".

This is one of my particular peeves: an artificial division of
characters or character types into "PC" and "NPC" is bad enough in a
lot of roleplaying games, but assigning whole *races* to "NPC only" is
just really too much.
</rant>

What unusual type of characters have other players run?

I remember having a lot of fun playing a non-sentient ship's computer
through one adventure.  It was very highly complex, and a source of
surprise to some of the other characters, but didn't have a sense of
"self" at all.

In a fantasy game, I once played a short-lived spirit for a few hours,
while my other involved character was unconscious and dying.  It was
then woven into a spell cast by one of the other characters -- in fact
the very spell that restored my original character to health.

I designed a hive-mind character for another game, an agglomeration of
dozens of individually subsentient creatures about the size of a rat,
but the GM moved away just before that game started.


So as you can imagine, an admonition that "Thou Shalt Not Play Jgd
Characters" isn't likely to sit well with me at all.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 19:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Sat Apr 20 18:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freelance Traveller is now Fan Site of the Week at RPGNews!
In-Reply-To: <o913cukv513imfb9up0a45fmfejbbava7u@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3CC1E030.30576.5FA9886@localhost>

Congrats!

Rob

On 20 Apr 2002 at 11:13, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> I just checked the site (http://www.rpgnews.rpghost.com/fansite.php) and
> Freelance Traveller is the featured site right now!
> 
> :)
> 
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

--
Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
 Spero nos familiares mansuros.
 I hope we'll still be friends.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 21:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Apr 20 20:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 21 Apr 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <jga4cuscmeas4pgo3jqh9sm37lpbf0dttu@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - A day or thereabouts after we posted the last update, we spotted that a
   whole bunch of stuff showed up corrupted - nothing fatal, but not a
   happy-making state of affairs. It's taken most of the past two weeks to
   find and fix the problems. We know how it happened; complaints have been
   made to the appropriate quarters. Apologies for any problems or
   awkwardnesses encountered because of this. 

 - Michl Hughes brings us a quick and easy method for creating TNS news
   items. You can read about it in Doing It My Way. 

 - Freelance Traveller has been selected as the RPGNews.com Fan Site of the
   Week. We're massively flattered - but it's you, the people who have
   supported our continuing efforts, that are deserving of accolades;
   without you, we wouldn't have survived. (We looked at RPGNews.com and
   are very impressed - if you're interested in multiple systems and
   settings, not just Traveller, this is a good place to start!) 

 - Michl Hughes also profiles Calypso McArthur, an ex-freedom fighter now
   scouting or the Imperium. You can meet McArthur in Up Close and
   Personal. 

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the (working!) feedback form at
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/infocenter/feedbackform.html.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to visit our site
and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our existence
possible.




Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 22:03:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 20 21:03:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>

At 11:50 AM 4/21/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Swordy wrote:
> > Jgd should only be played and handled as NPCs;
>
><rant>
>What?  Why should *any* character be restricted to "GM only"?


Because in this case the Jgd exist only in gas giant atmospheres, are 
completely unfathomable to humans, and have no real motivations that humans 
can figure out.

Playing a group of 10 meter spheres that die quickly on most Imperial 
worlds and are allergic to jump would be a bit boring.

Any it says "should," not "must."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com> <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com> <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020421150430.A6895@freeman.little-possums.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Because in this case the Jgd exist only in gas giant atmospheres,
> are completely unfathomable to humans, and have no real motivations
> that humans can figure out.

Sounds not too much unlike some people I've known :)

But seriously, I don't see anything there that makes them more
suitable as NPC material than as PC.


> Playing a group of 10 meter spheres that die quickly on most
> Imperial worlds and are allergic to jump would be a bit boring.

Doesn't sound too bad to me.  Besides, if they're suitable as an NPC
race, why aren't they suitable as PCs?  If they're boring for players
to run, presumably they're just as boring for the GM.  If they're
incomprehensible for players, they're just as incomprehensible for the
GM.


> Any it says "should," not "must."

True, although the distinction is rather slight in modern English.
Both express an obligation in that context, and usually a *moral*
obligation.  I deny that any such obligation applies.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:08:04 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006601c1e8f2$fae49aa0$1db18b90@computer>

Forwarded by: Richard Wilson
> "In contradiction," answered signor Ottaviano, "I will deploy just one
> argument, namely, that there only three forms of sound government:
> monarchy, the rule of the good (in the ancient world called the optimates)
> and government by the citizens. And the degenerate and lawless forms taken
> by these systems when they are ruined and corrupted are, in place of
> monarchy, tyranny, in place of the best, government by a few powerful men,
> and in place of the citizens, government by the common people, which
> wrecks the constitution and surrenders complete power to the control of
> the multitude.

The three 'sound' forms listed are:
monarchy
narrow oligarchy (aristocracy, I guess)
broad oligarchy

The 'degenerate and lawless' forms are:
tyranny
narrow oligarchy(!)
democracy

There isn't really much to say here.  Signor Ottaviano clearly believes
oligarchy is superior to democracy, and who are we to argue?

Tyranny is a much-maligned form of government, I might add.  In real terms,
it's simply an "illegitimate" form of monarchy.  It got its bad name due to
the fact that it usually involved aristocratic factions repressing and
driving out their rivals.  Worse, sometimes the tyrants would seek support
amongst the common rabble, rather than amongst the good, the wise and the
pious.  You know, some of these evil b*st*rds actually tried to engage in
land reform?  The worst of them were in Sparta, where they tried to extend
the franchise!  Imagine that - all those centuries of Spartan discipline
being watered down, just because some brainiac thinks that it's a bad thing
that Sparta can't actually put an effective army in the field any more!

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:10:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>

> From: Stephen Tempest
> Three battallions made up an infantry brigade.  By 1918, a brigade
> also included a trench mortar battery (eight 3" mortars each).
>
> Three brigades made up a division.  (ie, 9 infantry battalions).

The Australian army in WWI used four battalion infantry brigades.  Cavalry
brigades were three regiments (battalions) per brigade.  I'm pretty sure
this was British practice, too.  It's possible that things might have
changed in the British army by 1918 though.  The site below is interesting,
although not detailed past the battalion level:

http://www.adfa.edu.au/~rmallett/

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20420.212115.7V6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
> ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
> Sorry to take up space with this.
>
> Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in stand=
> ard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I have wrong=
> ?

See below. You are sending html to the list. Check this url for info on
how to not do so:

	http://expita.com/nomime.html

Basicly, if your editor is *giving* you a font choice for a post to a
newsgroup or mailing list, it's either misconfigured or broken.

> Sam
>
> ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <HTML><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff" STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"=
>><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Sorry to take up space with this.</DIV> <DIV>&nbs=
> p;</DIV> <DIV>Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was=
>  sent in standard format. I use arial as my font.<FONT color=3D#000000>&n=
> bsp;What other setting&nbsp;might I have wrong?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;<=
> /DIV> <DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
> ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0--
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 01:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 00:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20420.223657.0H4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Okay, I think this may be pretty complicated, and I wouldn't be surprised if 
> the answer is "Can't be done" or "Too hard" or "Go pick up a $200 Orbital 
> Dyanmics Textbook and figure it out..."
>
> But...
>
> ...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of 
> a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system from above, and the 
> primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital parameters of the planet (orbital 
> radius, eccentricity, orbital speed, reference point, etc) and the date.
>
> I'd actually like to be able to do this for _the_ solar system, that is 
> enter 
> "Nov 16 1969" and be able to plot where the planets are on X,Y paper.
>
> Now, I know that there are comercial astronomy programs (Red Shifft, etc) 
> that can do this sort of thing...but I need to try and build this into a 
> different program, so I gotta write the algorithm myself.

A couple of books I have:

Astronomy on the Personal Computer
Oliver Montenbruck & Thomas Pfleger
ISBN: 3-540-63521-1

Practical astronomy with your Personal Computer
Peter Duffet-Smith

I don't have the ISBN on that one as I have the version for calculators.

The first book even includes a disk with source code.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 01:20:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 00:20:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20420.230402.9D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
>> HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
>> during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
>> entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
>> stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
>> have they discovered in regards to this test?

For that matter, if they *did* wind up hundreds or thousands of parsecs
away, how would the folks back at the research station ever find out?

Assuming you could build a transmitter powerful enough, it takes 326
years for a radio (or laser) signal to cross 100 parsecs. So if you
can't get back on your own, nobody will ever know. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 01:23:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 00:23:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020419202918.31056.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20420.230829.0o4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> --- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
>> Paul Walker writes:
>> > 
>> > If this is the case, what would happen if there
>> were a
>> > HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump
>> (or
>> > during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
>> > entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
>> > stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
>> > have they discovered in regards to this test?
>> 
>> I wouldn't recommend engaging a jump drive while
>> sitting in the hold of a
>> ship already in jump-space. As far as the results of
>> such an event, I would
>> assume a 99.9% chance of a catastrophic catastrophy.
>> Perhaps there'd be a One in a Trillion chance that
>> the ship would end up
>> 300,000 LY away in the Andromeda Galaxy (or at the
>> exit 13A Toll Plaza on
>> the NJ Turnpike for that matter).
>
> But why?  This is the second reply I got that said it
> would be a bad thing and would probably destroy all
> ships involved.  Is there any support for this?  I'm
> not opposed to non OTU, but my original question was
> whether there was anything in the official rules
> and/or history to support or prevent such occurances?

ASs I recall, Marc Miller has stated that all that's known about
attempts to engage a jump drive of a vessel inside a ship ythat's
already in jump is that nobody who planned to try it has ever been
heard from again. 

So either both ships were destroyed or they would up too far away to
get back.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC32DFD.4695.111623B@localhost>

On 19 Apr 2002 at 12:32, Daniel Tackett wrote:

> .
> > 
> > Pilots are made into officers for reasons of
> > tradition and there's no 
> > real reason for them to be, no matter what they
> > might say on this.
> > 
> Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> or no reason for them to be grunts first?

No reason for pilots to be officers. In WWI & WWII the pilots who were 
NCOs did just fine. IIRC Chuck Yeager was a Sergeant for WWII and a 
while after.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC32FBD.15769.11838CB@localhost>

On 19 Apr 2002 at 15:35, Michael Cessna wrote:

>   Pilots are officers because the military does not
> want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
> though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
> the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
> arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
> that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
> wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
> why........

But they're okay with NCOs (sometimes JNCOs) driving/commanding over 50 
tons of AFV, or operating anti-shipping missiles. Yep. Makes sense (I'm 
sure it must do somewhere or when).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <B8E701D4.5797E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204201431.EPV00623@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC3359D.13137.12F2A22@localhost>

On 20 Apr 2002 at 11:30, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me with a
> special insight when I had my own platoon. 

My reasoning for it is quite simple - having had to lug the sections MG 
through the bush and mud for several weeks gives a person a much better 
idea of just how much more those extra pounds slow and tire a person 
compared with a normal load. Also it would act as a weeding out process 
for some of those who thought it would be fun and games, and look good 
on their CV. I'd want at least a year, preferably two and ideally you 
wouldn't be able to do the actual officer selection until after that 
time (to help stop any favouritism), though in the real world that 
wouldn't work because very few of the sort of people you want would be 
willing to gamble with two years of their life like that.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:59:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:59:30 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <200204201736.g3KHaCP25223@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3CC3359C.14671.12F2926@localhost>

On 20 Apr 2002 at 10:34, Steven Hudson wrote:

>   Arguably this applied in certain periods of 
> Roman history, and perhaps in some other classical
> armies (where maybe only members of the right
> classes might act as commanders, but far from all
> of those eligible would fight except as ordinary
> soldiers).

True. And in theory the Athens so famour for its democracy didn't have 
an officer class/caste, etc. However in practice only those born of 
wealthy and influential families would be appointed, as with Rome 
(which is why I said there weren't any I knew of).

However it's probably worth noting that in these armies (especially the 
Roman one of the late Republic and early Empire) most of the positions 
we'd consider appropriate for officers were filled by Centurions and 
their superiors, all of whom were 'from the ranks'. There were officers 
above them who weren't from the ranks, but they were few and far 
between (I seem to recall there being none until Legion level, at which 
point there was the CO and several 'staff officers', etc.). Of course 
the rank structure was quite flat by modern western standards, too.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 04:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 03:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <200204202010.EQF02707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC33777.7691.136689C@localhost>

On 20 Apr 2002 at 16:10, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Not all platoons were this bad, thank God.  But there were 
> some like that.  And I put the blame not only on the LT, but 
> on the NCOs in the platoon.

For sure. When a platoon's that bad the OC _and_ the NCOs (all of them) 
need to be hauled over the coals. If that doesn't work send 'em down 
the road - a sideways 'promtion' is a really bad idea - some other poor 
sods might be so unlucky as to be under them when it goes to custard 
someday.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 05:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sun Apr 21 04:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3CC344CF.2707.70F26D@localhost>

On 21 Apr 2002, at 15:11, Alan Bradley wrote:

> The Australian army in WWI used four battalion infantry brigades.  Cavalry
> brigades were three regiments (battalions) per brigade.  I'm pretty sure
> this was British practice, too.  It's possible that things might have
> changed in the British army by 1918 though.  The site below is interesting,
> although not detailed past the battalion level:

At the outbreak of the 1st WW the standard European infantry 
division consisted of two brigades each of two 3 battalion regiments 
(thus giving 12 battalions). The British (and consequently Dominion 
and Empire troops) used a slightly modifed TOE with three 4 
battalion brigades to a division, also giving 12 battalions (BTW the 
Russians used two brigades each with two 4 battalion regiments 
for a total of 16 battalions). This is the classic "square" division

Between 1916 and 1917, the high level of attrition and need for 
further maneuver formations lead to the Germans and French 
changing to divisions consisting of three 3 battalion regiments for a 
total of 9 battalions (this is the now standard "trianglar" division). 
This was initially done simply to get more divisions out of the same 
number of battalions (they lacked the manpower to form new 
battalions), however it was found that the change actually resulted 
in an *increase* in firepower due to the improved tactical flexibility 
of the triangular organisation.

The British stuck with their 12 battalion divisions until 1918 when 
combined attrition of four years of trench warfare finally forced them 
to adopt the triangular division as well (not to get more divisions, 
they just didn't have the manpower to keep the existing divisions at 
12 battalions any more). I think the Australians and Canadians also 
moved to the triangular formation at around the same time. 
However the New Zealanders stuck with the older 12 battalion 
organisation right till the end of the war.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 06:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 05:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML]  Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020418234703.00aa66d0@mail.pi.se>

Hello!

Leonard Erickson wrote:

 >On the other hand, unless that collision happened *really* late in the
 >formation of the system, such a plent would tend to collect a lot more
 >gas and other stuff, and possibly wind up as a mini-GG.

 From what I recall of astronomy, the gas giants form relatively early in 
the planetary creation phase, before the solar wind has dissipated the gas 
disc. Perhaps within a few million years. The terrestrial worlds 
traditionally are pictured to form over a slightly longer period, maybe ten 
times slower - the planetesimals form quickly, but building planets from 
them take a bit more time. So there is not much of gas to collect for 
terrestrial worlds unless they form very fast. The terrestrial planets 
around our solar system seem to have got most of their atmosphere from 
impacts of comet material and outgassing, even though they would probably 
be massive enough to sweep up and retain several of the gasses in the disc 
had that disc remained when they reached present size.

I believe you mentioned yourself how gas giants are pictured to spiral 
inwards from being formed outside the snow line - it is hard to picture hot 
gas giants formed in place even around systems rich in heavy elements.

Secondarily, if we take the collision-based-planet with a density of 6-6.5 
instead of 5-5.5, it isn't that exceedingly more apt to collect more gas 
even if such gas remains in large amounts when the planet has reached such 
a size. The same problem would certainly exist for a world with slightly 
larger radius than Earth yet still having a lower density of the range you 
apparently accept as possible.

What I argue is that it is possible to build higher density worlds simply 
by using the normal rock & metal mix and examples our (only) sample solar 
system can provide.

 >>Above a certain point, you get runaway accumulation of material, which
 >>results in a gas giant of some sort.

As above, that is highly dependent not only on a limiting size/temperature 
but on whether there is any significant material to accumulate in that manner.

 >Also, that major collision is just as apt to scatter pieces of those
 >rocky world halfway across the system.

I'd wager it rather is much more likely it will shatter both bodies than it 
would stick together.

However, the surviving pieces of such collisions could still form more 
iron-rich cores in further accretion. Much or even most of the disc 
material is possibly ejected from the inner system anyway.

A high-density world would probably be more likely to survive with many 
smaller impacts blasting off parts of the lighter matter than a big one. 
Thus, my initial example was not optimal. But it still is not a reason to 
completely write off planets of say, 6-6.5 density planets as unrealistic 
or exceedingly uncommon - perhaps especially around high-metalicity stars 
where it can be assumed there would be more of rocky and metallic matter to 
accrete in the inner system.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 07:57:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 06:57:33 2002
Subject: [TML] planetoid hulls for GT?
Message-ID: <3CC2C4A6.1F017BE6@mail.cswnet.com>

How can I get a planetoid hull for GT?
Would the stats be in Gurps Vehicles?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 08:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Apr 21 07:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] living space
In-Reply-To: <200204210036.EQN01344@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEOKDOAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Just comparing a recent ship design of mine to a current
>nuclear submarine.
>
>It looks like a modern nuclear submarine allocates far, far
>less living space that we allocate in Traveller.  In what
>appears to be the same length of hull (length of living
>quarters space), with a known beam (10 meters in the case of
>the sub, 20 meters in the case of the Traveller ship).
>
>In roughly 176 Traveller displacement tons, the sub has over
>129 crew.  And this is being generous: part of this space is
>taken up by bridge and torpedo tubes.

Very true. And sailors on sailing ships had even less personal space. The
question is who would want to live like that? Conditions on submarines are
so crowded that since the 1950's submarine sailors have been allotted
quarters ashore. To really appreciate this you have to realize that surface
sailors who are single have been forced to live aboard ship, even when in
port. It basically means that you have no life. Recently the navy has begun
to extend this arrangement to surface sailors, providing quarters on a space
available basis to single sailors in home ports.

Also, one should not forget that the members of navies other than the U.S.
Navy live in much better conditions. German sailors have six person rooms
for the most junior people and four person rooms for more senior enlisteds.
(Not to mention being wet when in port.)

There is also a basic difference between any kind of Earth seagoing ship and
a Traveller spacecraft. Except in wartime most surface sailors spend only
weeks at sea between port visits. There are typically years between
deployments, which are 6 months long and are generally a matter of traveling
from port to port, with no more than a few weeks actually at sea at any one
time. (There is a certain difference now, but we are at war now, so I would
not call this typical.)

If the Traveller fleets follow the sailing pattern of the ships of the days
of sail, then it is likely that they spend years away from their home ports,
not weeks. In the age of sail sailors, in the British navy anyway, were
recruited by press gang, because it was such awful work that no one wanted
to do it. They were the dregs of society.

But the Traveller navies, like the wet navies of today require sophisticated
technologically savvy crewmen. Not the kind of people that would want to
live under conditions that exist on even today's ships (one reason the U.S.
Navy has so much trouble keeping people.)

One of the easiest, and cheapest in the long run, method of keeping high
quality people is to give them decent living conditions. It is common on
merchant ships today for seamen to live in the kind of berthing used on
Traveller ships. It is my contention that by the middle of this century U.S.
Navy ships will have similar berthing, if only because that's they only way
they will be able to compete for the high quality technical people they
need.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 08:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 07:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <20020421150430.A6895@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421071925.009f7600@mindspring.com>

At 03:04 PM 4/21/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
> > Because in this case the Jgd exist only in gas giant atmospheres,
> > are completely unfathomable to humans, and have no real motivations
> > that humans can figure out.

>But seriously, I don't see anything there that makes them more
>suitable as NPC material than as PC.

The inability and lack of desire for contact with other races? Other than 
their unique environment, the Jgd are pretty boring.

> > Playing a group of 10 meter spheres that die quickly on most
> > Imperial worlds and are allergic to jump would be a bit boring.
>
>Doesn't sound too bad to me.  Besides, if they're suitable as an NPC
>race, why aren't they suitable as PCs?  If they're boring for players
>to run, presumably they're just as boring for the GM.  If they're
>incomprehensible for players, they're just as incomprehensible for the
>GM.

Remember the Star Trek episode "Is There In Truth No Beauty?"

http://www.treasure-troves.com/startrek/IsThereInTruthNoBeauty.html

The Medusan ambassador is a good example of a race that makes an 
interesting one-time encounter, or an occassional source of odd 
adventures.  Likewise the Puppeteers in Larry Niven's Known Space 
series.  What they put Beowulf Shaeffer through...

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 08:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Sun Apr 21 07:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
Message-ID: <F89TT0rafoBdDvwGB9g0001145a@hotmail.com>

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
<P>
<DIV>&lt;snip several hundred thousand exceptionally vile words&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Leonard Erickson sent me&nbsp;a link that explained how to correct things. If I did it right this should be in rtf.</DIV>
<DIV>Sorry about the html. I didn't realize this idiotic ISP program was doing that.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></P></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <a href='http://g.msn.com/1HM205401/l'>Click Here</a><br></html>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 09:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Sun Apr 21 08:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421071925.009f7600@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204210955580.27392-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
> The Medusan ambassador is a good example of a race that makes an 
> interesting one-time encounter, or an occassional source of odd 
> adventures.  Likewise the Puppeteers in Larry Niven's Known Space 
> series.  What they put Beowulf Shaeffer through...

Limiting their suitability to a single encounter alone isn't a reason to
disallowing them as PCs.  They may only be suited to a one-shot adventure
or short mini-campaign, but what's wrong with that?

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Sun Apr 21 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204210955580.27392-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <010401c1e94c$9dd5b7e0$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

If you want to use them as a pc race fine, but I find for the most part most
races make better npc then pc, . YMMV
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Carl Kettler" <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
> Limiting their suitability to a single encounter alone isn't a reason to
> disallowing them as PCs.  They may only be suited to a one-shot adventure
> or short mini-campaign, but what's wrong with that?
>
> Gregory Kettler
> "Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
> --Dave, KODT
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 10:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 09:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <F89TT0rafoBdDvwGB9g0001145a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E83217.57B30%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/21/02 7:48 AM, Samuel Weiss at samwise1@msn.com wrote:

<snip several hundred thousand exceptionally vile words>
 
Leonard Erickson sent me a link that explained how to correct things. If I
did it right this should be in rtf.
Sorry about the html. I didn't realize this idiotic ISP program was doing
that.
 


But plain text would be better.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 10:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Sun Apr 21 09:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
References: <B8E83217.57B30%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>

Or maybe not ...

*SIGH*

Sorry yet again. Is this one right?


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 10:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Sun Apr 21 09:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
References: <B8E83217.57B30%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <014201c1e951$11ada520$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Hi Sam I didn't; know you where here to we really have to stop meeting like
this :)
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message -----
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@msn.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks


> Or maybe not ...
>
> *SIGH*
>
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?
>
>
> Sam
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 11:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 10:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E83E61.57B3B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/21/02 9:19 AM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@msn.com wrote:

> Or maybe not ...
> 
> *SIGH*
> 
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?
> 

You got it.  Thanks very much!!

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 11:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Sun Apr 21 10:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
References: <20020421100312.13099279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC2FEED.CA035AA0@together.net>

> From: MurfNMurf@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 18:55:03 EDT
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Alien Help
> 
>    Hi,
>    Looking for alien stats for Traveller (CT/MT) the other day on the WWWeb,
> I ran across a pretty extensive (and frankly, kind of frightening as well)
> list of Traveller-related aliens, and was wondering if folks might be able to
> help me out with stats for several species that looked pretty interesting.
>    Adduxar: Carnivorous reptilians from the Zhodani book.
>    Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.

	There's an expanded write-up of these creatures in GT:AR4. Along with a
number of other CT aliens and a few new one. 

>    Sambiqys: Red-zoned Androids from JTAS 24.
>
	I'm not sure where the Sambiqys were written up, but it's not in JTAS
24. In either case 101 Robots has a short writeup:

664x2-A4-PQ522-MFE7(P) Cr38,356,000 840kg
Fuel=155.225 Duration=21.56 TL=17
50/122 (mesh)
4 Med Tentacles, Head (10%), 2 eyes (+2 passive IR), 2 ears, Voder, 2
olfactory sensors, Touch sensors (+extra sensitivity), taste sensor, 2
Power interfaces, brain interface, TL17 holo recorder (3D) Electronic
circuit protection, Admin-4, Emotion Stimulation. 

	If you can read the Book8 formats that should give you a start on these
as characters. 	


-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 11:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Sun Apr 21 10:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <E16yrdg-0001rp-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <DAV501sDWek3BGGtyr300019c9b@hotmail.com>

John Snead wrote,

>I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and
that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually
fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine
sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas
all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.<

Oooohhhh ....
Someone who thinks Rand is as worthless as I do. Cool!
:-P

>ObTrav, in several hundred years it would be interesting to note
how various organizations have changed. A Feudal Technocracy
could easily go from being a technocratic meritocracy to being a
static and rigid system of technological oriented castes and still
maintain the same designation.<

Or like the Imperium itself?
:)

Or even more, consider how a change in social standards over a span of 20
years could cause people to question the government designations.  Likewise
with historical revisions.
How much would it take for <insert target leader here> to shift between
Charismatic and Non-Charismatic Dictator, or even from simply head of state
under a Representative Democracy to one of the above?


Sam
(My email is reconfigured, I have 5 minutes, and now the real suffering
begins! :-P)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
Message-ID: <19f.10e2de7.29f47482@aol.com>

--part1_19f.10e2de7.29f47482_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thanks for the info :)
Ken



--part1_19f.10e2de7.29f47482_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Thanks for the info :)
<BR>Ken
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_19f.10e2de7.29f47482_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 15:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Apr 21 14:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>
References: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3cc5281d.3577404@post.demon.co.uk>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:

>The Australian army in WWI used four battalion infantry brigades.  =
Cavalry
>brigades were three regiments (battalions) per brigade.  I'm pretty sure
>this was British practice, too. =20

Yes.  To be specific, composition of a British infantry division
altered as follows:

pre-war: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions (with 24 Vickers guns)
4 brigades of artillery (54 18lb, 18 4.5", 4 60lb)
2 Co. engineers, 1 Sq. cavalry, 1 Co. cyclists, support elements

mid-1915: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions (with 48 Vickers guns)
4 brigades of artillery (54 18lb, 8 4.5")
2 Co. engineers, 1 Sq. cavalry, 1 Co. cyclists, support elements

Sept 1916: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions, a trench mortar battery
and a machine gun company (with 144 Lewis guns, 48 Vickers guns and 8
3" mortars)
4 brigades of artillery (48 18lb, 16 4.5")
4 trench mortar batteries (12 2", 4 9.45")
2-3 Co. engineers, pioneer battalion, support elements.

Apr 1917: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions, a trench mortar battery and
a machine gun company (with 192 Lewis guns, 48 Vickers guns and 8 3"
mortars)
2 brigades of artillery (36 18lb, 12 4.5")
4 trench mortar batteries (12 2", 4 9.45")
1 machine gun company (16 Vickers guns)
2-3 Co. engineers, pioneer battalion, support elements.

Oct 1918: 3 brigades each of 3 battalions and a trench mortar battery
(with 324 Lewis guns and 8 3" mortars)
2 brigades of artillery (36 18lb, 12 4.5")
2 trench mortar batteries (12 2")
1 machine gun battalion (64 Vickers guns)
2-3 Co. engineers, pioneer battalion, support elements.

In short, a steady increase in the number of machine guns available to
the troops.  While the amount of artillery available at division and
lower levels tended to decrease, that's because it was taken into
general reserve to be deployed en masse for specific offensives -
something that made sense given the static nature of the Western
=46ront.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 15:32:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Apr 21 14:32:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419164150.01eb9740@mail.qrc.com>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203> <5.1.0.14.2.20020419164150.01eb9740@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3cc62d61.4925172@post.demon.co.uk>

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> writes:

>In every other case that is covered by the rules, attempting to do=20
>something unusual with a jump drive causes one of three results: either=20
>nothing happens, the ship misjumps, or is catastrophically destroyed.  =
Any=20
>of these would be appropriate, and destruction sounds most likely to me =
as=20
>well.

4)  you enter jump^2 space, where you spend z weeks and re-emerge into
normal jump-space z*Jn parsecs from your starting location.
Unfortunately, the value of the constant z is unknown... (but probably
extremely high.  Unless it's the square root of minus one or some such
value).  Also, the mapping of J^2-space onto j-space is not the same
as that of j-space to n-space...

5)  You appear at the centre of the universe before the throne of
Great Azathoth himself.

Stephen
tekeli-li...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 17:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr 21 16:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
References: <20020421190105.C74D2279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c1e989$71a64d00$81b18b90@computer>

> From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
> The British stuck with their 12 battalion divisions until 1918 when
> combined attrition of four years of trench warfare finally forced them
> to adopt the triangular division as well (not to get more divisions,
> they just didn't have the manpower to keep the existing divisions at
> 12 battalions any more). I think the Australians and Canadians also
> moved to the triangular formation at around the same time.
> However the New Zealanders stuck with the older 12 battalion
> organisation right till the end of the war.

OK.  That makes sense.

In WWII, Australian divisions were originally going to be organised with
four battalion brigades, but this was changed to bring them in line with
British practice.  I'd have to check the details, but I think the first
division raised (the 6th Division) was actually formed along these lines.
The battalions left over from the reduction to three battalion brigades were
assigned to the 7th or 8th division.  Like I said, I would need to check the
details...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 17:47:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 16:47:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421234639.35407.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh
future leader of men?  :P
END QUOTE
I'm a traditionilist. It means pretty much the same as
"I'm right behind you" (twelve miles that is) ;P

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 17:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 16:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421235144.21334.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
God help them.  I'm almost of the opinion that
officers should be enlisted first.  Even academy
cadets should complete 2 years before going to the
academy.
END QUOTE

I was joking! I'm not that sort of person. I in fact
believe they should do away with the whole enlited vs
officer thing! I mean it was orignally away to make
sure the nobles (no matter how imcompetent) where
never under the command of an commoner. I think every
one should start as private and take a test to be
accepted into a command academy. 

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:00:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:00:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421235938.36529.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Nah, he's just a Butter Bar wanna be. Like Lt. Gorman
in Aliens. Hey Top, you take the men in, I'll just
watch the camera's, and make sure my boots don't get
scuffed, oh, and once your in the meat grinder I'll 
be here to lead you out. Yes Sir, were on it. Vasquez
you take point.

Turokan
END QUOTE

In Australia we have pips! Not bars. ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
Message-ID: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>

I had to go with AOL 7.0 because my copy of the last AOL software that DIDN'T 
make getting rid of HTML codes a pain vanished with the HD crash of a few 
weeks ago. Regular e-mail isn't hard, but quoting text is now a major hassle, 
and I am more than a little annoyed.

This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much extraneous 
garbage?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:12:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:12:35 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <81.1a9d8d8c.29f4af3c@aol.com>

Samuel D. Weiss Said:
>>John Snead wrote,
>>
>>I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and
>>that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually
>>fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine
>>sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas
>>all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.<
>>
>Oooohhhh ....
>Someone who thinks Rand is as worthless as I do. Cool!

Without knowing how worthless you think Rand is, I've never been especially 
fond of her writing either

This is a test to see if quoted text works without extraneous garbage.

LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <20020422001538.87316.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Never, ever sign someone up as an infantryman, and
then tell him halfway through his term that "because
you were a programmer in civilian life, we're going to
make you one here, because we're short programmers. 
We don't know who assigned you here, but we've no use
for you otherwise.".
END QUOTE

Which is why I am not going to mention my major
(software engineering to the army). "Computer sir?, I
don't recognise that command sir!". Im going to be a
programmer in civilian life the last thing I want to
do in the army is program. Now running around with a
huge pack in the mud! Sounds like fun ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
In-Reply-To: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220957010.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi LKW:

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> I had to go with AOL 7.0 because my copy of the last AOL software that DIDN'T
> make getting rid of HTML codes a pain vanished with the HD crash of a few
> weeks ago. Regular e-mail isn't hard, but quoting text is now a major hassle,
> and I am more than a little annoyed.
>
> This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much extraneous
> garbage?
>
> LKW

 Shows up in PINE 4.44 fine, no extra stuff. And yeah I <96 mega pulses
deleted for content> hate aol as well.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

"J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:

> Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
> eliminate poverty?

The government defines a poverty line.  People at and near that 
point pay no income taxes.  Anyone with an income greater than 
that pays a graduated tax, depending upon how far above it they 
are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the 
government (much like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any 
money in) to give them money equal to being at the poverty line.  

End result: no one in the nation has an income that is below the 
poverty line.  Also, the amount of taxes necessary would not be 
that high, especially since the entire welfare bureaucracy (which 
consumes a surprisingly high percentage of the money allocated to 
this sector of the government) would be instantly eliminated.

In the 1970s, this idea was either proposed or promoted by  
economist Milton Friedman and was touted as a libertarian 
proposal.  Sadly, libertarianism has changed significantly since 
them (IMHO, much for the worse).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <20413.122049.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Leonard:

 Catching up on the back log of mail.

On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
> Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system.
>
> The disk formats haven't changed (not the flopiy ones anyway) and the
> newer programs can generally read the data files from the older ones.

 You have more knowledge on the tech of the systems than I. All i am
reporting is what the average user, the "plug & pray" type, have told me
in the shop. Explaining all the problems they have with the system and
upgrades. Problems with reading disks and accessing older files. I was
told that it is possible to do the work. This by a man in his 3rd year of
computer Scicese at UofO. But he also said it took some programming and
hardware work. his explanation went above my head.

> FM (aka "single density") and MFM (aka "double density" and "high density").
>
> Most "modern" floppy controller chips can't read FM disks. But a lot of
> fairly recent ones can. For example, the Adaptec SCSI cards that
> include a floppy controller can.

 Accedentally tried to format a single density disk on my 1571 drive. In
short I have 4 of them to now to a manual head alignment job. My drives
contain the micro processor. Not certain if new cards installed would work
or be possible. Though I do remember that the first HD for the C= being
the Lt. Kernal used MFM hard drives.

> With some easily available software I can read TRS-80 floppies on my
> PC. To read Commodore or Apple GCR disks, I'd have to install the old
> CopyIIPC deluxe option board in one of my systems.

 What about emulators? i hear on some of the lists and newsgroups about
Vice 1.8 as the best out there for reading C= disk images. The .D64, .D71
and the .D81 image copy style. is this what you mean or is the above
something that I am not familiar with at this time?

> PCjr floppies used the same format as the PC.
>
> No idea what the X-box uses.

 I may be wrong, but I was told that besides the disk media. That some of
the Os is put on the disk in what I know as track and sectors. I was told
that the track and sectors for this information change with the upgrades.
Therefore this is a reason why newer systems have trouble or can't read
the older disks. This problem happened when a friend of mine tried to copy
his wifes 286 disks to the hard drive on his vin95v4 <IIRC> it wrote new
os on the original disks. how this happened or the exact things done I
don'T know. just that both of them were stock users. No programming
understanding.

> What gets fun is when you need to read things like 8" floppies or the
> whacko Amstrad 3" (*not* 3.5"!) floppies. Or cassette tapes, or stringy
> floppies or other weird media.

 <grins> Recently saw a store selling the 8" ones as part of a side walk
sale. They were surprised when I went for 50 still sealed DS/Dd 5 1/4 soft
sectored disks. FWIW Verbatium has a site up where they are selling these
disks. including the 8" and some other weird sizes I don't remember.
Speaking of cassette tapes. That is a project that I am working upon.
Converting my tape collection to disk. Not an easy one. But possible. Not
certain what you mean by stringy floppies. But I do remember in college
paper tape and those <name escapes me> punch cards.

> I once had to recover a program by reading paper tape by *hand*.

 That was a test in 74 at the class I had to take. Fun isn't it?? <BG>

> I have a DOS program called HTMSTRIP that takes HTML and produces a
> reasonably formatted plain text file. It even puts in the "boxes" in
> tables.

 My Wave prg alows me to choice between a dial up to telnet or a direct
text based web browser. I can do better with the new beta version on
working with frames if I use the straight browser. Most of the time I use
the lynx for Inet web work. Takes most frames well. But not yet will
either do the boxes. My e-mail is with Pine 4.44 though the telnet.
Eventually I will use Qwkrr for my off line reader. Still sending via
telnet the packet to videocam. Generally it makes things smooth in
reading. Removing some inconsistencies and prompts me at the start of the
msg that it has done this job and that some charcters maynot be correct.
HTML though is not always corrected. At the best everything is in
underline. At the worse all commands are enclosed in "<xx>" in the msg.
Making inding the actual content almost impossible. I have yet to try w3m.
my SysAdmin tells me this is good for frames and forms.

> There's a DOS program that'll view many image formats, including .AVI
> and MPEG files, and play a lot of sound formats.

 The free beta test of JOS will allow me to see JPEG on scren while on
line. Also and here I am out of my experience, play Wave and RAW and some
form of streamlined MP something sound files. Right now I am considering
dl ing the plans for the new ethernet board for my C=.

> Well, the idea is that there need to be publicly available standards.
> Having multiple standards is merely inconvenient as long as the info
> on the file formats is available.

 That is a problem we have today the no standards since the other systems
like mine are still in use. Impossible to set a standard then without
causing a revolt of users of the non standard platforms. A good story idea
for a lower tech level world??

 Plot ideas are running rampant in my head. Wish I could read my
penmanship for the notes I am taking on this topic. So many worlds at so
many tech levels. Creating so many different platforms. The possibilities
for computer difficulties are almost endless. However I would think that
there are Imperial standards for navigation. Set probably by the ISS. Even
if emulators and converters have to be installed in the software or
hardware on the ship. Another part of the computer skill?

> The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
> either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
> to import and export files in those formats.

 That sounds nice on paper. However I can see resentment happening. Just
based on the little that we have not using windoze systems.  We face
discrimination and that builds resentment to hostility. In Traveller, on
frontiere worlds that are doing their own thing. This could grow into a
sense of "National" pride. Or the thought of being "forced" into
something. Still I suspect that there is something going on in the
computer line. Where the files are sent say from the x-boat to panet and
revers. Where it is translated to the usable format for the receptor of
the information.

> Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
> equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
> finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice.

 Myself, I am working on converting PET to geoWrite 2.1 then converting
the final output to Ascii for upload to the places I write for through the
Inet. I can do the revese and prefere to do all my writing in GeoWrite 2.1
Takes just a few minutes to convert back and forth. Perhaps that is a
thought for the Imperial mail at least. Though expanded for images and
text for the local systems.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <20020422001538.87316.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421173609.009ec3e0@mindspring.com>

At 10:15 AM 4/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Now running around with a
>huge pack in the mud! Sounds like fun ;)

Oh it is, for the first ten miles or so!

OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at the start of the 
road march, how much will it weigh after 25 miles cross-country through 
Korea in July?


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:06:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:06:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
In-Reply-To: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174048.009fa870@mindspring.com>

At 08:07 PM 4/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
>This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much extraneous
>garbage?

Check. free and clear.

If I ever have to change systems, I'm posting the Beowulf mayday as my test 
post.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:09:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:09:13 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020421235144.21334.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174146.009fba50@mindspring.com>

At 09:51 AM 4/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
>I was joking! I'm not that sort of person. I in fact
>believe they should do away with the whole enlited vs
>officer thing! I mean it was orignally away to make
>sure the nobles (no matter how imcompetent) where
>never under the command of an commoner.

Well, that's sort of true, but there is a very real reason for the gulf 
between officers and enlisted men.

In combat, and officers has to be able to order men to take actions that 
will almost certainly get them killed, and have those orders carried out 
without question. An officer has to be a rather remote figure of power, 
hence all the saluting and calling someone with bars on his collars  "Sir" 
even though he might be younger than you.

Officers also are the responsible ones.  When things go wrong, it is the 
officer's fault. That is an awesome responsibility, and they deserve 
a  little deference from us grunts.

I served under all three flavors of officer, ROTC, trade school, and 
OCS.  They all had their differences, but I'd rather be led a member of the 
Hudson High Alumni association than a guy doing his six years to pay off 
getting his degree in Marketing at Party U.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:13:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220927280.6440-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Sam:

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Samuel D. Weiss wrote:

> Or maybe not ...
>
> *SIGH*
>
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?

 Came across to me <ascii only> quite fine. No html or things I can't
read.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204220112.ESJ04755@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry asks
>
>OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at 
>the start of the road march, how much will it weigh after 25 
>miles cross-country through Korea in July?
>

About the same as the Dragon, with spare round.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:18:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:18:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
Message-ID: <20020421.210932.-150737.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

> This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much 
> extraneous garbage?
> 
> LKW

I'm reading it fine as straight text.  Considering I use Juno (which
considers *anything* besides straight text as an evil abberation) I'd say
you're doing fine.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421173609.009ec3e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC36486.FE987F75@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 10:15 AM 4/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
> >Now running around with a
> >huge pack in the mud! Sounds like fun ;)
> 
> Oh it is, for the first ten miles or so!
> 
> OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at the start of the
> road march, how much will it weigh after 25 miles cross-country through
> Korea in July?

23 pounds, which is about half as much as that damnable M40 protective
mask that keeps banging against your left thigh with each step.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:26:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Scheets)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:26:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <008801c1e978$f0b18e40$8e83bad0@computer2>

Robot cameras 'will predict crimes before they happen'

By learning behaviour patterns, computers could soon alert police when an
unmanned camera sees 'suspicious' activity
By Andrew Johnson
21 April 2002

Computers and CCTV cameras could be used to predict and prevent crime before
it happens.

Scientists at Kingston University in London have developed software able to
anticipate if someone is about to mug an old lady or plant a bomb at an
airport.

It works by examining images coming in from close circuit television cameras
(CCTV) and comparing them to behaviour patterns that have already programmed
into its memory.

The software, called Cromatica, can then mathematically work out what is
likely to happen next. And if it is likely to be a crime it can send a
warning signal to a security guard or police officer.

Full story at:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=287307


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:34:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:34:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <20020422001538.87316.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002301c1e99e$0f4d18e0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Ramsay" <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au>
> Which is why I am not going to mention my major
> (software engineering to the army). "Computer sir?, I
> don't recognise that command sir!"

Just as long as you don't say "Computer sir? Bad Command or Filename sir!"

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <81.1a9d8d8c.29f4af3c@aol.com>
References: <81.1a9d8d8c.29f4af3c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8qq6cukej81v0jdgtshfhj82sl6acr8foc@4ax.com>

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 20:11:40 EDT, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>Samuel D. Weiss Said:
>>>John Snead wrote,
>>>
>>>I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and
>>>that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it =
actually
>>>fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine
>>>sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas
>>>all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.<
>>>
>>Oooohhhh ....
>>Someone who thinks Rand is as worthless as I do. Cool!
>
>Without knowing how worthless you think Rand is, I've never been =
especially=20
>fond of her writing either
>
>This is a test to see if quoted text works without extraneous garbage.

The quoting seems to have worked pretty well from this side of things.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 21:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 20:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020421224306.00a87f00@rollanet.org>

So this is the reason that starports are on the planet's surface and 
highports aren't as common.

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%7B1F54AEED-A34B-411B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D

--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 21:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 21 20:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 05:38:11PM -0700
References: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020421214459.A958@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 05:38:11PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the government (much
> like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any money in) to give them
> money equal to being at the poverty line.

All that'd do is devalue the dollar until the poverty line in dollars
is once again below the poverty line in fact.  It's a better scheme
than the current welfare regime, and may indeed work rather more
slowly to eviscerate the economy, but the end result'd be the same.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Security-wise, NT is a server with a 'kick me' sign taped to it.
                                                --Peter Gutmann

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 22:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 21:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <20020422041531.74282.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Robot cameras 'will predict crimes before they happen'
By learning behaviour patterns, computers could soon
alert police when an unmanned camera sees 'suspicious'
activity
END QUOTE

Until we develop AI or very very sophisticated system
this would be useless in the real world. How does a
computer now whether a person is reaching for a gun or
there wallet? Answer they can't. All it can do is
determine that an image of a person looks like its
reaching for something. If they stopped wasting money
on tech dreams such as this actual humans could be
hired. And for a very long time into the future humans
(even the ones typically hired as security guards)
will have more reasoning ability than all the
computers in the world! Robotic security guards have
been in development since the 70's and no one has yet
to make one that is accurate and/or doesn't cost more
than the police budget for a small city.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 22:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 21:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules (OT about computers)
Message-ID: <20020422041947.44658.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Just as long as you don't say "Computer sir? Bad
Command or Filename sir!"
END QUOTE

Evil thought! 

EnlistedOS. "What hard drive sir?", "Sir, the private
doesn't know where that file is", "I don't know what
happened to the RAM, sir", "Sir, it was there the last
time I checked", "But sir the registry needed cleaning
sir".

very evil indeed.

James




=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 22:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 21:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <3CC3930A.D2B8F94D@mail.cswnet.com>

Richard Wilson writes:
>So this is the reason that starports are on the planet's surface and 
>highports aren't as common.

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%7B1F54AEED-A34B-411B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D

JOY! Hydrogen wells! JOY! That will make the Downports in systems
without gas giants or other significant surface water so much easier to
deal with. I can see it now...

"168-1106 Arba/Lunion
A media advisor for Myers Mining and Manufacturing announced the
discovery of large subsurface hydrogen deposits....."

I can see the port director thinking about it now...

"No more stupid fuel blimps. No more running to the asteroid belt to
melt ice. No more begging Lanth for a refueling ship. No more...."

I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen Drilling Platform?
What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How exactly would one
extract it from the subsurface? Would there be any hazards?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 23:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 22:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20421.215401.3P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Or maybe not ...
>
> *SIGH*
>
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?

Yep. Looks good.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 23:09:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 22:09:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <F89TT0rafoBdDvwGB9g0001145a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20421.215246.9z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
> <P>
> <DIV>&lt;snip several hundred thousand exceptionally vile words&gt;</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>Leonard Erickson sent me&nbsp;a link that explained how to correct 
> things. If I did it right this should be in rtf.</DIV>
> <DIV>Sorry about the html. I didn't realize this idiotic ISP program was 
> doing that.</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></P></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Join the world&#8217;s largest 
> e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <a 
> href='http://g.msn.com/1HM205401/l'>Click Here</a><br></html>

You don't want RTF either. You want "plain text" or "ASCII". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 00:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 23:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <20020421.230604.-125605.5.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:35:22 -0500 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
>
> I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen Drilling Platform?
> What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How exactly would one
> extract it from the subsurface? Would there be any hazards?
> 

One word - Praxis!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 00:12:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 23:12:29 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421.230604.-125605.4.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:59:38 +1000 (EST) =?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=
<quakers_united@yahoo.com.au> writes:
> QUOTE
> Nah, he's just a Butter Bar wanna be. 
> 
> Turokan
> END QUOTE
> 
> In Australia we have pips! Not bars. ;)
> 
> James

That's fine James, in America it fits our Army OCS graduates fairly well.
Not the West Point grads. To me, if they can make it through West Point,
they've earned the respect of being called Sir.

Anyway Butter "pips" just don't sound good.

What do you call your OCS officers?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 00:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 23:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20421.220153.6l0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hoi Leonard:
>
>  Catching up on the back log of mail.
>
> On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
>> Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system.
>>
>> The disk formats haven't changed (not the flopiy ones anyway) and the
>> newer programs can generally read the data files from the older ones.
>
>  You have more knowledge on the tech of the systems than I. All i am
> reporting is what the average user, the "plug & pray" type, have told me
> in the shop. Explaining all the problems they have with the system and
> upgrades. Problems with reading disks and accessing older files. I was
> told that it is possible to do the work. This by a man in his 3rd year of
> computer Scicese at UofO. But he also said it took some programming and
> hardware work. his explanation went above my head.

Upgrading hardware can cause problems with almost any bit of hardware
in the system. A common problem when upgrading to the motherboards we
prefer is that the printer port won't work unless you know the right
way to force Windows to rescan for the hardware in the system. 

Most folks just give up and reinstall from scratch. 

Also, floppy drives *do* get out of alignment. 

But with windows, the first thing to suspect is that hardware manager
is loading drivers for a previous card or motherboard.

>> With some easily available software I can read TRS-80 floppies on my
>> PC. To read Commodore or Apple GCR disks, I'd have to install the old
>> CopyIIPC deluxe option board in one of my systems.
>
>  What about emulators? i hear on some of the lists and newsgroups about
> Vice 1.8 as the best out there for reading C= disk images. The .D64, .D71
> and the .D81 image copy style. is this what you mean or is the above
> something that I am not familiar with at this time?

I'm talking about reading actual floppies. The CopyIIPC board hooks
between the PC's floppy controller and the floppy drives. It lets you
read Mac & Commodore floppies.

>> PCjr floppies used the same format as the PC.
>>
>> No idea what the X-box uses.
>
>  I may be wrong, but I was told that besides the disk media. That some of
> the Os is put on the disk in what I know as track and sectors. I was told
> that the track and sectors for this information change with the upgrades.

Nope.

DOS and Windows use 512 byte sectors on floppies (and on most HDs). The
original 5.25" floppies used 40 tracks, with 8 sectors per track.
Single or double sided. (for 160k and 320k per floppy)

Later that was upped to 9 sectors per track, giving 180k and 360k per
floppy.

There were some odd formats used on a few proprietary versions of DOS,
especially on 3.5" disks before IBM introduced their version. 

Standard 3.5" DD disks are 720k. 80 track, 40 sectors per track.

The HD floppies were 80 track on both sizes of floppy. Which, btw,
caused mah\jor problems with writing to 5.25" DD floppies on HD drives...

1.2M 5.25" floppies were 16 sectors per track, 80 track.
1.4 meg 3.5" floppies were 18 sectors per track, 80 track.

But with the right commands you can read/write any MFM format that the
drive will support. 

It's the weird sector sizes, FM and GCR formats that you need to have
the right hardware for.

> Therefore this is a reason why newer systems have trouble or can't read
> the older disks.

Ok, Windows will clobber *non*-DOS disks, and some "special" dos disks
because it checks to see if disks have been changed by writing a made
up string to a location on the floppie normal used for an ID string
used to identify various OEM versions of DOS. This makes the disks
unreadable on the original system.

Never stick install disks from older software, or things like BIOS
upgrade disks into a box running windows without write protecting the floppy.

> This problem happened when a friend of mine tried to copy
> his wifes 286 disks to the hard drive on his vin95v4 <IIRC> it wrote new
> os on the original disks. how this happened or the exact things done I
> don'T know. just that both of them were stock users. No programming
> understanding.

Trust me, *they* did it. Not the OS.

Either the alignment on the drives doiffered and it asked if he wanted
to format the disks, and he said yes, or he did something else stupid. 

You see, without any special commands at all, I copied 100 floppies from
an XT system to directories on my HD and then burned a CD for him. 

I had a bit more trouble with the HD...

>> What gets fun is when you need to read things like 8" floppies or the
>> whacko Amstrad 3" (*not* 3.5"!) floppies. Or cassette tapes, or stringy
>> floppies or other weird media.
>
>  <grins> Recently saw a store selling the 8" ones as part of a side walk
> sale. They were surprised when I went for 50 still sealed DS/Dd 5 1/4 soft
> sectored disks. FWIW Verbatium has a site up where they are selling these
> disks. including the 8" and some other weird sizes I don't remember.

8" floppies are *expensive* now, because so few folks use them anymore.

> Speaking of cassette tapes. That is a project that I am working upon.
> Converting my tape collection to disk. Not an easy one. But possible. Not
> certain what you mean by stringy floppies. But I do remember in college
> paper tape and those <name escapes me> punch cards.

Stringy flopies were a sort of high speed cassette. They used a credit
card sized endless loop tape (rather like an 8-track, but smaller). The
drives were available for several systems, Apple, TRS-80, etc.

>> Well, the idea is that there need to be publicly available standards.
>> Having multiple standards is merely inconvenient as long as the info
>> on the file formats is available.
>
>  That is a problem we have today the no standards since the other systems
> like mine are still in use. Impossible to set a standard then without
> causing a revolt of users of the non standard platforms. A good story idea
> for a lower tech level world??

You are suffering from the delusion that new standards are required to
be usable on "obsolete" equipment. Or even on brands of equipment other
than those of the outfit setting the standard.

>  Plot ideas are running rampant in my head. Wish I could read my
> penmanship for the notes I am taking on this topic. So many worlds at so
> many tech levels. Creating so many different platforms. The possibilities
> for computer difficulties are almost endless. However I would think that
> there are Imperial standards for navigation. Set probably by the ISS. Even
> if emulators and converters have to be installed in the software or
> hardware on the ship. Another part of the computer skill?

You have to remember that most lower tech worlds aren't inventing their
tech. They are upgrading to *existing* tech used on other worlds. Or
they have chosen a locally sustainable tech level lower than that of
the world they were settled from.

After the Long night, you'd get a lot of independent stuff. But it'd be
unlikely to last more than a century or so. Uniform standards are just
too useful. And unless you are the highest tech world in the area,
you'll be replacing or upgrading your stuff in less than a century
anyway. 

>> The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
>> either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
>> to import and export files in those formats.
>
>  That sounds nice on paper. However I can see resentment happening. Just
> based on the little that we have not using windoze systems.  We face
> discrimination and that builds resentment to hostility. In Traveller, on
> frontiere worlds that are doing their own thing. This could grow into a
> sense of "National" pride. Or the thought of being "forced" into
> something.

I think you are confused here. I'm talking about data formats. That's
not the same as stuff like spreadsheets and other "software specific"
formats. 

The only reason you wouldn't be able to import/export stuff in a
"universal" data format would be if your equipment just plain wasn't up
to handling the *data*. For example, it gets *really* hard to handle
multi-gigabyte files on an 8-bit system<g>

The one exception would be compression methods, where the "horsepower"
of the system can make it impossible to handle it on lower powered
systems.

Windows dominance and "universal" data exchange formats are only
loosely related. MS *wants* their stuff to be all that's used and tries
to make it hard to use "foreign" formats (or makes changes to break
formats so the MS version can read files from other software but can't
be read on the other platforms).

> Still I suspect that there is something going on in the
> computer line. Where the files are sent say from the x-boat to panet and
> revers. Where it is translated to the usable format for the receptor of
> the information.

It shouldn't require translation *at all* is my point. GIFs don't need
to be translated. ASCII text only needs translation on systems that
don't support it (and BTW, Commodore was incredibly *stupid* in not
supporting ASCII when they designed the PET the standard had been
around since 1968!!)

>> Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
>> equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
>> finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice.
>
>  Myself, I am working on converting PET to geoWrite 2.1 then converting
> the final output to Ascii for upload to the places I write for through the
> Inet. I can do the revese and prefere to do all my writing in GeoWrite 2.1
> Takes just a few minutes to convert back and forth. Perhaps that is a
> thought for the Imperial mail at least. Though expanded for images and
> text for the local systems.

Again, most tech will *not* be native except in small areas or certain
time periods.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <010401c1e94c$9dd5b7e0$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic

Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.

Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
<grin>

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:26:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:26:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
In-Reply-To: <20020421.230604.-125605.5.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
> >
> > I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen 
> > ? Drilling Platform?
> > What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How 
> > exactly would one> extract it from the subsurface? 
> > Would there be any hazards?
> 
> One word - Praxis!

Um, sorry ?

What does Piaget's term for a child's system of coordinated 
and deliberate movements acquired during the sensory- motor 
stage of development have to do with hydrogen drillling ? 

Or, for that matter, what does the term for the right of 
a Camarilla Prince to rule his city have to do with hydrogen 
drilling ?

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:28:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:28:47 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote :
> The government defines a poverty line.
> People at and near that  point pay no income taxes.
> Anyone with an income greater than that pays a
> graduated tax, depending upon how far above it
> they are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets
> money from the government (much like a tax refund
> but w/o having to pay any money in) to give them
> money equal to being at the poverty line.
>
> End result: no one in the nation has an income that is
> below the poverty line.

And almost no one in the counry has an after tax income that is
much above the poverty line either.

> Also, the amount of taxes necessary
> would not be  that high,

Oh yes it is. You should try living in New Zealand.
20% of the country pay for 80% of it.
The remaining 20% pay their own way.

I'm paying about 40% of my income in income tax alone.
Add onto that sales tax, local government taxes, etc, etc.
and its approaching 60% of my income in tax.

And I still have to pay health insurance and tuition fees on
top of that because the state systems suck for everything
except emergency surgery.

> especially since the entire welfare
> bureaucracy (which consumes a surprisingly high
> percentage of the money allocated to this sector
> of the government) would be instantly eliminated.

And instead that bureaucracy would be duplicated
in the IRS. The bureaucracy for distributing the
money will be the same no matter who controls it.

They had the same idea over here, it increased the
bureaucracy, because although they had the IRD
refunding money to people, they _still_ had to have
the rest of the social welfare system to handle all
the other allowances, like the solo parent's benefit,
the "being Maori" benefit, the "being lesbian"
benefit, and the "being a Maori lesbian solo parent"
benefit, and the...

Sorry, it gets a bit much sometimes, especially when
they teach young girls that a "valid career choice" is
"solo parent".

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002, at 20:35, Frank Pitt wrote:

> They had the same idea over here, it increased the
> bureaucracy, because although they had the IRD
> refunding money to people, they _still_ had to have
> the rest of the social welfare system to handle all
> the other allowances, like the solo parent's benefit,
> the "being Maori" benefit, the "being lesbian"
> benefit, and the "being a Maori lesbian solo parent"
> benefit, and the...
> 

Frank, please be careful here.  I'd like not to be too inflammatory, 
but that statement came close to being racist and homophobic, 
two adjectives I really don't like.  If you need to say stuff like that, 
please keep it out of my mailbox.

Sincerely,
-- Rachel Kronick


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 03:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon Apr 22 02:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <200204220112.ESJ04755@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPEENFEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Douglas Berry asks
>
>OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at
>the start of the road march, how much will it weigh after 25
>miles cross-country through Korea in July?
>

It is a well know fact that as one gets more tired gravity increases where
ever you happen to be. Thus equations for acceleration due to gravity need
to incorporate a fatigue factor.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 03:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 02:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020421214459.A958@4dv.net>
References: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020421214459.A958@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020422193023.A3521@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> All that'd do is devalue the dollar until the poverty line in
> dollars is once again below the poverty line in fact.

Not at all.  That would only be true if the society is very close to
being unable to support its population at poverty line levels -- which
doesn't hold true for any modern industrialised nation.  It is already
demonstrated that rich countries *can* support large government
payments to a large proportion of their population -- all that would
change is who gets what.

Compared with Australia's current welfare system, for example, it
would greatly *encourage* employment and hence productivity of society
as a whole.  As it stands, anyone in Australia who gets even a
part-time job loses their unemployment payments, health care
concessions, rent assistance, eligibility for taxation breaks, and
other benefits -- and usually so do their spouses.  It's a great
disincentive -- in most cases, working 20 hours a week is a net *loss*
over not working at all.

I realise this anecdotal report doesn't refute your point, but it does
show that a much worse system than the one proposed can remain stable
for quite a while.  I don't think it will actually remain so for
political reasons, but economically it could certainly be sustained
indefinitely.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 03:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Apr 22 02:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <20020422093745.58225.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to
> Comics.
Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember
what he did.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 04:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 03:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz> <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020422202058.B3521@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rachel Kronick wrote:
> Frank, please be careful here.  I'd like not to be too inflammatory, 
> but that statement came close to being racist and homophobic, 

Blame it on the government, not Frank.  They're the ones making
decisions whether to hand out money based on the origin of your
ancestors.  I'm not sure whether he was being serious about the
"lesbian" benefit or not.  The solo parent benefit certainly is fact.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 06:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon Apr 22 05:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422202058.B3521@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002, at 20:20, Timothy Little wrote:

> Blame it on the government, not Frank.  They're the ones making
> decisions whether to hand out money based on the origin of your
> ancestors.  I'm not sure whether he was being serious about the
> "lesbian" benefit or not.  The solo parent benefit certainly is fact.
> 

I have little or no problem with the government's decisions regarding 
benefits; the problem was that Frank came very close to implicitly 
saying that being Maori or being lesbian was a bad thing.  His 
derisive tone, not the government's decision, was what irked me.

Okay, nothing further on this subject, at least from me.  

-- Rachel 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 06:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon Apr 22 05:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <E16zdOy-0005P5-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

Eventhough the people maintaining the airplane are all enlisted, some with =
only 6-8 weeks of training.

Beth (retired aircraft maintainer)


>   Pilots are officers because the military does not
> want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
> though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
> the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
> arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
> that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
> wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
> why........
>=20
>      MACessna


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon Apr 22 06:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <E16zdga-0005cC-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

It's OK, nothing to worry about.  Everything will be alright.  Why don't yo=
u follow these two gentlemen to a nice comfy room we have for you.  All pad=
ded and quiet.  Latter we will feed you.  We hope that you like pudding.  W=
e will even fit you with a new jacket as well.  <g,d,r>

Beth :)  (who also had had the same types of brain lock-downs)


>=20
> Mr. McKnight,
>=20
>      Thanks for the tip.  As way of illustrating my dearth of research=20
> skills, I've been mindlessly typing "TO&E" into various search engines.  =
I=20
> never thought to actually SPELL the acronym out!  Did I mention that my h=
ead=20
> comes to a point?
>=20
>      "Sorry for putting this on the web, but I can't contact you offlist=
=20
> without an email address.  :-)"
>=20
>      Yet another example of typical Whipsnadian brain flatulence.  I ask =
the=20
> kind folk of the TML to contact me off-List and then neglect to provide t=
he=20
> address.  Did I mention that my head comes to a point?
>      Thanks again for your help.
>=20
>=20
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 08:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Mon Apr 22 07:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
Message-ID: <F34UkSQDq1gFSlgOLN300005c8f@hotmail.com>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
> >
> >I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me
> >with a special insight when I had my own platoon.
> >
>
>I think it's better to find out that someone can't delegate
>when they're an NCO (or even a corporal) rather then after we
>waste the money to make them an officer.
>
>Of course, I don't believe that leadership can be "taught".
>Talent in this area can be nurtured, grown, and refined, but
>never "taught".  If you can't lead or delegate to begin with,
>no amount of training is going to make a difference.
>
>One other area of "talent" that isn't easily remedied by
>training - tactical ability, and an ability to implement that
>tactical brilliance in your platoon. All platoon drills
>aside -- can you and your men really fight?  I remember
>watching platoons turning into indecisive, sleep-deprived
>zombies because no one in the chain of command, officer or
>nco, could get it all together.  There's nothing more
>unnerving to me than watching a platoon in training mill
>around in my scope when a few of them are hit with MILES
>gear.  Watching the men peep their heads in and out of the
>woodline like idiots.  Officers and NCOs scratching their
>heads and having a committee meeting to decide what to do.  I
>even remember a fat platoon sergeant ambling out into the
>open, looking up and down the danger space, trying to figure
>out where I was.
>
>Not all platoons were this bad, thank God.  But there were
>some like that.  And I put the blame not only on the LT, but
>on the NCOs in the platoon.

I want to give the list a URL...  
http://www2.inc.com/incmagazine/archives/04980541.html

This is an article titled "Corps Values" and it is about the USMC method of 
developing leaders at TBS, The Basic School.  It is an excellent read, and 
gives good insight to the qualities looked for in the screening and 
evaluating process that the US Marine Corps uses in developing leaders.

Obtrav:  All Marine Officers, in the entire force, attend one of the two or 
three basic schools in the Imperium....

Greg Smith
Capt  USMC (former)




Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 08:31:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 07:31:08 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <20020422093745.58225.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422092623.045e5950@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_476139==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Co-author of Dungeons and Dragons.  TSR did their level best to erase his 
name from D&D; Arneson had to sue for royalties; they settled out of court 
back in 1979.

Victor Raymond

At 02:37 AM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to
> > Comics.
>Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember
>what he did.
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
>http://games.yahoo.com/
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor J. Raymond
Department of Sociology, ISU
vraymond@iastate.edu
--=====================_476139==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
Co-author of Dungeons and Dragons.&nbsp; TSR did their level best to
erase his name from D&amp;D; Arneson had to sue for royalties; they
settled out of court back in 1979.<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
At 02:37 AM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what
Kirby was to<br>
&gt; Comics.<br>
Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember<br>
what he did.<br><br>
__________________________________________________<br>
Do You Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more<br>
<a href="http://games.yahoo.com/" eudora="autourl">http://games.yahoo.com/</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
TML mailing list<br>
TML@travellercentral.com<br>
<a href="http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml" eudora="autourl">http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml</a></blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times">Victor J. Raymond<br>
Department of Sociology, ISU<br>
vraymond@iastate.edu</font></html>

--=====================_476139==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 08:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Apr 22 07:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> End result: no one in the nation has an income that
> is below the 
> poverty line.  Also, the amount of taxes necessary
> would not be 
> that high, especially since the entire welfare
> bureaucracy (which 
> consumes a surprisingly high percentage of the money
> allocated to 
> this sector of the government) would be instantly
> eliminated.

The only way I can see such a system working is if you
ensure that those in the system are at least
attempting to be employed.  That, then, requires that
at least some of your welfare bureaucracy remain.  I'm
not suggesting that our current system is better, just
pointing out a possible problem.

Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is 10,000Cr. 
If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away 10,000
of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick.  In
my mind, this situation would produce three types of
people:

1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
     These people continue to earn as much as they
can, either (a) hoping that maybe the government will
not need all of it to pay for those not at poverty
level and that they will get to keep the extra
(doubtful) or (b) working because they are not
concerned with the money aspect of the work, but are
motivated by something else entirely.

2.  Workers (Small Minority)
     These people work to earn poverty level, and take
the rest of the time off.  They are of the type who
believe that labor is good and want to earn for their
family.

3.  Loafers (Very Large Majority)
     These people realize that no matter how much (or
how little) they work, they will get at least enough
money to subsist and if they earn more, the government
is likely to take it all from them.  They reason that
there is no reason to work.

Although I (and probably many others) may want to
think and believe we would be in categories 1 or 2,
how many of us love our work, or feel compelled to
work enough that we could withstand the temptation to
be in category 3?  Not many, I would guess.

Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were
making an attempt at earning a living, and there is
your welfare bureaucracy.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>; from rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net on Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 09:01:26PM +0800
References: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost> <20020422202058.B3521@freeman.little-possums.net> <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020422085927.A5010@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 09:01:26PM +0800, Rachel Kronick wrote:
> 
> I have little or no problem with the government's decisions regarding 
> benefits; the problem was that Frank came very close to implicitly 
> saying that being Maori or being lesbian was a bad thing.

No--he implied that benefits solely because one is Maori or lesbian
are a bad thing.

> His derisive tone, not the government's decision, was what irked me.

The derision was for the government's decision.

Sheesh, I cannot believe I'm defending someone I've killfiled.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Exodus will never disconnect a spammer.  By the time the complaints
reach a level adequate to persuade them, the small-arms fire will
prevent their admins from reaching the servers --clifto, in nanae

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:02:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:02:21 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204221459.g3MExjP00155@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Rupert 
...
>>   Arguably this applied in certain periods of 
>> Roman history, and perhaps in some other classical
>> armies (where maybe only members of the right
>> classes might act as commanders, but far from all
>> of those eligible would fight except as ordinary
>> soldiers).
>
>True. And in theory the Athens so famour for its democracy didn't have 
>an officer class/caste, etc. However in practice only those born of 
>wealthy and influential families would be appointed, as with Rome 
>(which is why I said there weren't any I knew of).
>
>However it's probably worth noting that in these armies (especially the 
>Roman one of the late Republic and early Empire) most of the positions 
>we'd consider appropriate for officers were filled by Centurions and 
>their superiors, all of whom were 'from the ranks'. There were officers 
>above them who weren't from the ranks, but they were few and far 
>between (I seem to recall there being none until Legion level, at which 
>point there was the CO and several 'staff officers', etc.). Of course 
>the rank structure was quite flat by modern western standards, too.

  That's why I went with "arguably" - it can be presented either way,
with the big issue being whether some of those positions (eg, a Roman
centurion) were officers or NCO's. By the social standards of the
non-professionals in command (& staff) at Legion level they were only
commoners for almost all purposes, but the Legion could sooner function
without any of those patricians or equites than it could with even half
of the centurionate absent.

  Given the role of the army in political strife in the later Empire,
maybe the empire would have functioned better without any of those
classes in the legions :|

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174048.009fa870@mindspring.com>
References: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174048.009fa870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020422170728.7ba62ef6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Check. free and clear.
> 
> If I ever have to change systems, I'm posting the Beowulf mayday as my
test 
> post.

This is Free PC Beowulf
pinging anyone...
Mayday, Mayday... we are under attack...
hard drive is gone...
serial port number one not responding...
Mayday... losing system stability fast...
calling anyone... please help...
This is Free PC Beowulf

<message repeats>

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changes to First In rules
In-Reply-To: <000d01c1e7bb$b9afeea0$0f01a8c0@terry>
References: <20020316213935.3edca0b2.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <000d01c1e7bb$b9afeea0$0f01a8c0@terry>
Message-ID: <20020422171232.3a3ba7ef.jenry023@student.liu.se>

tmixon wrote:
> The ratio is wrong. The standard star distribution is 4+ on 1d6. That
> means an average of 640 systems per sector. So this one is actually 1.28
> per sector.

Oops, my mistake.

<snip>
> If you want the ratios on one per sector or one every 7.5 sectors, the
> ratios will need to change.

Right, thanks.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <F34UkSQDq1gFSlgOLN300005c8f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204221040090.12612-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Andrew MacLintock wrote:
> Obtrav:  All Marine Officers, in the entire force, attend one of the two or 
> three basic schools in the Imperium....

Is that realistic?  Given the cost of shipping a candidate across a
sector or two, I'd think the Imperium would prefer the expense of running
more schools so that one would be closer to home.
Great link, btw, though that's coming from someone who doesn't quite see
military service in his future.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420121558.A5360@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019491952.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Aha, so we have magically targeted changes in the rules of quantum
> > mechanics.
> 
> Yes, that's the one :)

Ok, just checking.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <20020422.091436.-170613.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:35:16 +1200 "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> > <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
> > >
> > > I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen 
> > > ? Drilling Platform?
> > > What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How 
> > > exactly would one> extract it from the subsurface? 
> > > Would there be any hazards?
> > 
> > One word - Praxis!
> 
> Um, sorry ?

Praxis - Klingon moon which blew up in ST-VI The Undiscovered Country.

Due to over mining, and poor safety prtocols.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019492558.5758.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
> "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:
> 
> > Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
> > eliminate poverty?
> 
> The government defines a poverty line.  People at and near that 
> point pay no income taxes.  Anyone with an income greater than 
> that pays a graduated tax, depending upon how far above it they 
> are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the 
> government (much like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any 
> money in) to give them money equal to being at the poverty line.  

Not quite; one idea behind negative income tax as I'm aware of it is that it's
supposed to eliminate the welfare effect where by getting a job, your income
doesn't improve.  Thus, if the poverty line is $10,000/year and you made less
than that, tax would be something like 50% of income - $5,000, so if you made
$2,000/year, your taxes would be -$4,000/year.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204221040090.12612-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019492780.113.ajackson@ping>

Gregory Carl Kettler writes:
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Andrew MacLintock wrote:
> > Obtrav:  All Marine Officers, in the entire force, attend one of the two
> > or  three basic schools in the Imperium....
> 
> Is that realistic? 

Sure.  It's a distributed school; you just have to realize that academy at
Regina and the academy at Dingir are the same school ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Frank Pitt wrote:

> Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> 
> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
> 
> Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
> <grin>
> 
I'd have to agree.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422085927.A5010@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220948240.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Rachel wrote:
>
> > His derisive tone, not the government's decision, was what irked me.
> 
> The derision was for the government's decision.

I thought so, too.  You don't get much more anti-homophobic than I am, but
I don't think being gay should get you money from the government.  
 
> Sheesh, I cannot believe I'm defending someone I've killfiled.

I hate it when that happens too, Robert.

Kiri :) 

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <OF5BF2A073.349D1856-ON85256BA3.005C2CDE@pheaa.org>





>> Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
>> > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
>>
>> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
>>
>> Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
>> <grin>
>>
>I'd have to agree.

Please forgive my stupidity but who or what is Shooter?







From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 11:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Mon Apr 22 10:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1ea22$d25c5a60$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Paul Walker
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 07:41
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] RAH and libertarianism

Although I (and probably many others) may want to
think and believe we would be in categories 1 or 2,
how many of us love our work, or feel compelled to
work enough that we could withstand the temptation to
be in category 3?  Not many, I would guess.

Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were
making an attempt at earning a living, and there is
your welfare bureaucracy.

Paul
------------------------------------------------------------

Put me in group 3.  Its not so much I hate working, its that nothing you
do nowadays makes any difference in your employment.  I've worked for
Kyocera, SHE, Hewlett-Packard, Agilent and AT&T and they are all the
same - use you until they no longer feel they need you, then dump you.

Yes, I am currently unemployed again.  AT&T a couple of years back was
worried that a rival ISP was coming in and they knew their customer
service sucked.  So they started hiring in-house technicians and toned
down their contractors.  Well Comcast basically merged with AT&T and
Time/Warner has no plans to compete here.

AT&T found itself sitting on a de facto monopoly, at least in the
Vancouver/Portland area, so they took it upon themselves to be rid of
their in-house employees and went back to the lack-luster contractors.
I and 15 of my co-workers found themselves not laid off but outright
fired for all sorts of stupid reasons.

I gave this company 110% like I always do as an employee, but here I am
again, unemployed.  There were days I started at 7am and got home after
midnight because I put the customers first and myself last.  Now I have
nothing to show for it.  HP and Agilent did similar things but at least
had the decency to lay us off.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do now with the job market so already
over-bloated with laid off workers.  I'm just tired of working for
companies that have absolutely no loyalty to their employees.

If anyone in the Portland/Vancouver area that is on this list hears
about any job that could use someone good with computers or telecom,
please email me off-list.

Thanks!

( j-man@attbi.com )






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 11:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr 22 10:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220948240.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <20020422085927.A5010@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422104155.009f3ec0@mindspring.com>

At 09:49 AM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:

>I thought so, too.  You don't get much more anti-homophobic than I am, but
>I don't think being gay should get you money from the government.

I don't know, the way some of the RR talks, we might be able to file for 
disability!

ObTrav: A world sees some common trait as being a horrible disadvantage 
(being left-handed, for ex) left handers are offered all sorts of 
government assistance, programs.. the good times end when the ship tries to 
leave.. the pilot is left-handed, and under law cannot operate the ship in 
the planet's airspace...

-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 12:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 22 11:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422104155.009f3ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDBDMAA.tml@downport.com>

You have that exactly backwards. The LL say it's physical, which might fall
under the ADA if you thinks it is handicapping you in some way. The RR (and
the Pope) say it is an act of the will, meaning sin.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
>
> I don't know, the way some of the RR talks, we might be able to file for
> disability!
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 13:42:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 12:42:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
References: <F262jQlc7vtdFq7ImxU00001228@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC46749.40007@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     Yet another example of typical Whipsnadian brain flatulence.  I ask 
> the kind folk of the TML to contact me off-List and then neglect to 
> provide the address.  Did I mention that my head comes to a point?
>     Thanks again for your help.

Uhhh...at least in _my_ mail client, Larsen's e-mail address

grote1731@hotmail.com

Is shown on each of his posts to the list...


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 13:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421173609.009ec3e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC468A1.8050409@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at the start of 
> the road march, how much will it weigh after 25 miles cross-country 
> through Korea in July?

Why the same as an unladen kitten perched on your chest, asleep.

5.67 tons. ;-)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
Message-ID: <200204222013.g3MKDLi02407@mailbag.com>

Hello all,

My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete the 
process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be spending the evening 
of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San Francisco. If there are any 
fellow Travellers who would care to get to gether with me that evening for beer 
and/or conversation, please let me know. 

Thanks!

William




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <DAV57DRtBBnmIahhPyO0001abc4@hotmail.com>

I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
before.

Gygax is very much to gaming as Kirby was to comics.


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV57DRtBBnmIahhPyO0001abc4@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

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At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
>growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
>before.

Mr. Weiss,

Without putting too fine a point on it, Mr. Gygax and TSR also ended up in 
litigation with Mr. Arneson about authorship and royalties about D&D - 
despite the fact that Arneson originated the concept and was listed as a 
co-author on the cover of the original game.  If that is "improving on what 
had come before" forgive me if I want to check to see if I have all my 
fingers when we're done shaking hands.

Even if you buy the argument that Gygax was somehow responsible for the 
"success" of D&D, you could build a case that TSR missed opportunity after 
opportunity to make it even bigger.  Or merely note the fact that the 
company was run into the ground, not once, but TWICE, despite their 
"success."  Add to that the antagonistic relationship that Gygax had with a 
great number of fans - many of whom are now successful game designers in 
their own right - and these conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)

To each their own, Mr. Weiss.

Victor Raymond


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I wasn't aware that Arneson made
D&amp;D a million dollar industry with still<br>
growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had
come<br>
before.</blockquote><br>
Mr. Weiss,<br><br>
Without putting too fine a point on it, Mr. Gygax and TSR also ended up
in litigation with Mr. Arneson about authorship and royalties about
D&amp;D - despite the fact that Arneson originated the concept and was
listed as a co-author on the cover of the original game.&nbsp; If that is
&quot;improving on what had come before&quot; forgive me if I want to
check to see if I have all my fingers when we're done shaking
hands.<br><br>
Even if you buy the argument that Gygax was somehow responsible for the
&quot;success&quot; of D&amp;D, you could build a case that TSR missed
opportunity after opportunity to make it even bigger.&nbsp; Or merely
note the fact that the company was run into the ground, not once, but
TWICE, despite their &quot;success.&quot;&nbsp; Add to that the
antagonistic relationship that Gygax had with a great number of fans -
many of whom are now successful game designers in their own right - and
these conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)<br><br>
To each their own, Mr. Weiss.<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_91614101==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422190106.A61D4279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote:

> --- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > End result: no one in the nation has an income that
> > is below the 
> > poverty line.  Also, the amount of taxes necessary
> > would not be 
> > that high, especially since the entire welfare
> > bureaucracy (which 
> > consumes a surprisingly high percentage of the money
> > allocated to 
> > this sector of the government) would be instantly
> > eliminated.
> 
> The only way I can see such a system working is if you
> ensure that those in the system are at least
> attempting to be employed.  That, then, requires that
> at least some of your welfare bureaucracy remain.  I'm
> not suggesting that our current system is better, just
> pointing out a possible problem.
> 
> Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is 10,000Cr. 
> If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away 10,000
> of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick.  In
> my mind, this situation would produce three types of
> people:

<snip> 

That would *only* be true if the median income was at the poverty 
line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.  The incentive to 
work would be have an income greater than the poverty line.  Most 
people want this and the percentage of people below the poverty 
line honestly isn't that high.  If the poverty live was 10,000 Cr, then 
someone earning 20,000 Cr would be far more likely to pay no 
more than 20% of their income in taxes, resulting in a net income 
of 16,000 Cr.  Assuming a wealth structure like that in the US, then 
if there was a reasonable tex system (ie one where the ultra-
wealthy could not use numerous loop holes to avoid paying any 
taxes) then that 20% could likely be reduced to 15% (for 20,000 
Cr), resulting in a net income of 17,000 Cr.  Those extra 6,000 or 
7,000 Cr can buy lots of nice things and many people will think 
them worth the effort.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019508300.7419.ajackson@ping>

For reference on negative income tax:

http://www.indiapolicy.org/lists/india_policy/2000/Jun/msg00007.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:48:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:48:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
Message-ID: <20020422.134355.-170613.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

William

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:13:20 GMT wlewis@mailbag.com writes:
> Hello all,
> 
> My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to
complete the process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be
spending the evening of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San
Francisco. If there are any  fellow Travellers who would care to get to
gether with me that evening for beer and/or conversation, please let me
know. 
> 
> Thanks!

Congrats!!!

I pray your journey be safe, productive, and fulfilling to you, your
wife, and especially your new baby boy.

My best to you all. The world would improve greatly if it followed your
example.

Chaplain Bari

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV84RtKdLWPo08EOTq0001acff@hotmail.com>

Mr. Raymond,

Without putting too fine a point on it either, you seem to be confusing a
number of business policies more properly attributed to other people at TSR,
who among other things wound up unsucessfully suing Mr. Gygax over the game
he created upon being forced out of TSR, with the actions of Mr. Gygax
himself.
You seem to wish to ignore that Mr. Arneson had nothing to do with
expansions of the game following the initial publication.
As for the running of the company into the ground, this very specifically
happened when people other than Mr. Gygax were running the company.
Concerning his antagonistic relationship with fans as well as game
designers, from what I've witnessed this is a combination of Mr. Gygax being
right about a number of things he said, and some rather intense jealously.
More than one would be fanboy or sycophant has tried sucking up and been
rebuffed for getting something wrong and subsequently become an ardent
internet defamer of Mr. Gygax and his works. As well, the professional
jealousy of game designers whose command of the English language resembles
that of a 3 year old when compared to Mr. Gygax, not to mention the truly
questionable quality of some of their designs, should be highly suspect to
anyone with a discerning eye.

Is Gary a perfect person, always polite, and always humble about his
accomplishments?
No.
Do I agree with everything he has ever said?
No.
Did he define multiple aspects of a hobby genre like Jack Kirby defined
comics?
Definitely.

To each their own indeed. And for me, that is the most definitely Gary
Gygax, whether he is sending me blistering flames or fullsome praises.


Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 01:32:49PM -0700
References: <20020422190106.A61D4279B9@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020422145517.A5794@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 01:32:49PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> That would *only* be true if the median income was at the poverty
> line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.  The incentive
> to work would be have an income greater than the poverty line.

I believe it was meant as a reductio ad absurdem.  That is, by making
x=100, it demonstrated the worst possible case.  Even if the tax rate
on earnings over the poverty line is only 1%, then for every $100 more
of work I put in I only get $99.  As the rate goes up, so does the
disincentive.  The practical effect is that less work gets done than
ideally should.

This is a problem with any tax, and is insurmountable.  There are
other, worse problems with no taxes.

> If the poverty live was 10,000 Cr, then someone earning 20,000 Cr
> would be far more likely to pay no more than 20% of their income in
> taxes, resulting in a net income of 16,000 Cr.

A net income of 16,000 Cr for 20,000 Cr worth of work.

> Those extra 6,000 or 7,000 Cr can buy lots of nice things and many
> people will think them worth the effort.

But is it worth 10,000 Cr worth of work for 6,000 Cr worth of credits?

I'm not anti-taxes; they're a necessary evil.  But it's important to
realise the very bad efects taxation has on an economy.  Ideally
taxation (and therefore, the public sector) would be limited to a few
percent of GDP, so as to minimise the deleterious economic effects
thereof.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A person who's interested only in books doesn't need other people...
                           --Arturo Perez-Reverte, The Club Dumas

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:00:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:00:24 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <3CC478B9.9010306@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Victor Jason Raymond wrote:
> At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
> 
>> I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
>> growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
>> before.

snip


> Add to that the antagonistic relationship that Gygax had 
> with a great number of fans - many of whom are now successful game 
> designers in their own right - and these conclusions look pretty dice-y. 
> (so to speak)

Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on this) 
  had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
role-playing industry.

Very likely there would have been no card came industry ("Magic-the 
gathering of spare cash", etc)

It was a runaway success that paved the way for everything else since, 
TSR mis-steps or not.

(Yes, I know it's runaway success was proof there was a huge untapped 
market for it out there, but that is the nature of runaway 
successes....'Trivial Pursuit' was also a runaway success, despite a 
host of similar games like it on the market in the past that didn't take 
off.)

I myself was introduced to Traveller as '...like D&D, only SF, with 
starships and fusion guns...'

Like it or not, the *one* thing that springs to the average person's 
mind when they heard the term 'role playing game' is D&D.

Well, that and '..sallow, spindly geek with no life..', but I digress...

(and I'm not sallow, and (alas) long passed the 'spindly' stage...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
References: <200204222013.g3MKDLi02407@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <3CC479F7.6090906@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

wlewis@mailbag.com wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete the 
> process to adopt a baby boy. 

Congratulations!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <3CC478B9.9010306@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

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At 01:55 PM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Victor Jason Raymond wrote:
>>At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>>I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
>>>growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
>>>before.
>
>snip
>
>
>>Add to that the antagonistic relationship that Gygax had with a great 
>>number of fans - many of whom are now successful game designers in their 
>>own right - and these conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)
>
>Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on 
>this)  had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
>role-playing industry.

<nods>

Dear Bruce (and an aside to Mr. Weiss),

I would definitely agree with you about this.  My point is that if you 
should praise Gygax, you ought to also praise David L. Arneson, as well - 
it's only fair.  Gygax wouldn't have had D&D if Arneson had not started 
doing Blackmoor.  And there is a fair bit to point out that isn't so 
praiseworthy.

Victor


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

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<html>
At 01:55 PM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Victor Jason Raymond wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you
wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I wasn't aware that Arneson made
D&amp;D a million dollar industry with still<br>
growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had
come<br>
before.</blockquote></blockquote><br>
snip<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Add to that the antagonistic
relationship that Gygax had with a great number of fans - many of whom
are now successful game designers in their own right - and these
conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)</blockquote><br>
Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on
this)&nbsp; had there been no D&amp;D, there very likely would have been
*no* role-playing industry.</blockquote><br>
&lt;nods&gt;<br><br>
Dear Bruce (and an aside to Mr. Weiss),<br><br>
I would definitely agree with you about this.&nbsp; My point is that if
you should praise Gygax, you ought to also praise David L. Arneson, as
well - it's only fair.&nbsp; Gygax wouldn't have had D&amp;D if Arneson
had not started doing Blackmoor.&nbsp; And there is a fair bit to point
out that isn't so praiseworthy.<br><br>
Victor<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_94568000==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:20:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:20:29 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <200204222116.ETY00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip Gygax stuff>

Well, the basic lesson that I see in the whole Gygax thing
is never, ever run a company and staff it with your friends.  
I did that with my own software startup, and it was the worst 
mistake I ever made in my life.

Either that, or I'm not a very good judge of character.  But 
to be on the safe side, don't make your friends your business 
partners.

Greed is a curious thing, and most people are not as immune 
to it as they might imagine.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV84RtKdLWPo08EOTq0001acff@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161637.04bc1d60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

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At 04:53 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Mr. Raymond,
>
>Without putting too fine a point on it either, you seem to be confusing a
>number of business policies more properly attributed to other people at TSR,
>who among other things wound up unsucessfully suing Mr. Gygax over the game
>he created upon being forced out of TSR, with the actions of Mr. Gygax
>himself.

Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the 
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.  Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR when Mr. 
Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and co-authorship.

>You seem to wish to ignore that Mr. Arneson had nothing to do with
>expansions of the game following the initial publication.

Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and co-authorship.  TSR 
and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.

>As for the running of the company into the ground, this very specifically
>happened when people other than Mr. Gygax were running the company.

I will grant you that.  The Blume Brothers did not exactly paint themselves 
in glory.

>Concerning his antagonistic relationship with fans as well as game
>designers, from what I've witnessed this is a combination of Mr. Gygax being
>right about a number of things he said, and some rather intense jealously.

Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with 
a straight face.

>More than one would be fanboy or sycophant has tried sucking up and been
>rebuffed for getting something wrong and subsequently become an ardent
>internet defamer of Mr. Gygax and his works.

Not the people I am referring to.  Do keep in mind the dispute between TSR 
and Chaosium regarding the Lovecraftian Mythos, etc. (which involved the 
Lovecraft estate and Mr. Moorcock's solicitors), just as an example of 
something other than your generalization.

>As well, the professional
>jealousy of game designers whose command of the English language resembles
>that of a 3 year old when compared to Mr. Gygax, not to mention the truly
>questionable quality of some of their designs, should be highly suspect to
>anyone with a discerning eye.

Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?


>Is Gary a perfect person, always polite, and always humble about his
>accomplishments?
>No.
>Do I agree with everything he has ever said?
>No.
>Did he define multiple aspects of a hobby genre like Jack Kirby defined
>comics?
>Definitely.

And this is where we must part company.

Cheers!

Victor Raymond


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_94973383==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 04:53 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Mr. Raymond,<br><br>
Without putting too fine a point on it either, you seem to be confusing
a<br>
number of business policies more properly attributed to other people at
TSR,<br>
who among other things wound up unsucessfully suing Mr. Gygax over the
game<br>
he created upon being forced out of TSR, with the actions of Mr.
Gygax<br>
himself.</blockquote><br>
Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.&nbsp; Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR
when Mr. Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and
co-authorship.&nbsp; <br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>You seem to wish to ignore that Mr.
Arneson had nothing to do with<br>
expansions of the game following the initial
publication.</blockquote><br>
Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and
co-authorship.&nbsp; TSR and Arneson settled out of court for a
considerable sum.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As for the running of the company
into the ground, this very specifically<br>
happened when people other than Mr. Gygax were running the
company.</blockquote><br>
I will grant you that.&nbsp; The Blume Brothers did not exactly paint
themselves in glory.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Concerning his antagonistic
relationship with fans as well as game<br>
designers, from what I've witnessed this is a combination of Mr. Gygax
being<br>
right about a number of things he said, and some rather intense
jealously.</blockquote><br>
Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again
with a straight face.&nbsp; <br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>More than one would be fanboy or
sycophant has tried sucking up and been<br>
rebuffed for getting something wrong and subsequently become an
ardent<br>
internet defamer of Mr. Gygax and his works.</blockquote><br>
Not the people I am referring to.&nbsp; Do keep in mind the dispute
between TSR and Chaosium regarding the Lovecraftian Mythos, etc. (which
involved the Lovecraft estate and Mr. Moorcock's solicitors), just as an
example of something other than your generalization.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As well, the professional<br>
jealousy of game designers whose command of the English language
resembles<br>
that of a 3 year old when compared to Mr. Gygax, not to mention the
truly<br>
questionable quality of some of their designs, should be highly suspect
to<br>
anyone with a discerning eye.</blockquote><br>
Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Is Gary a perfect person, always
polite, and always humble about his<br>
accomplishments?<br>
No.<br>
Do I agree with everything he has ever said?<br>
No.<br>
Did he define multiple aspects of a hobby genre like Jack Kirby
defined<br>
comics?<br>
Definitely.</blockquote><br>
And this is where we must part company.<br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_94973383==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Neural Guns
Message-ID: <2237.1019490155@www44.gmx.net>

Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen,

I've got questions regarding Neural Weaponry.

All my knowledge is based on the few lines of Weapons Description and the
two inserts into the Weapons Price Table in the Imperial Encyclopedia/MT.

The Stats I could work out are...
Neural Pistol-16
no AmmoNotes, ? Rds, Pen/Att 10/-, special (but known) Dmg, MaxRange Long,
no AutofireTargets, no DangerSpace, Low Signature, Low Recoil, Difficulty as
Handgun
Neural Rifle-16
no AmmoNotes, ? Rds, Pen/Att 10/-, special (but known) Dmg, MaxRange Long,
no AutofireTargets, no Danger Space, LowSignature, Low Recoil, Difficulty as
Rifle
...just to show, that I thought before consulting TML

So now :

Are there any 'official' stats/rules regarding neural guns (probably hidden
in some secret supplement I don't know - there are many of these)?

My problem lies in (s.a.) ? Rds - How much ammunition does a neural pistol
or rifle pack? I think it would need a power pack, as energy weapons, which
would correspond roughly with the ammunition price and weight stated in the
weapons price table(?) How many shots per pack? Are there integral (or only
integral) versions, and how much shots would these have?

I'd be glad, if you shared your knowledge or opinion,
bye, Sebastian

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:31:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:31:38 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <200204222116.ETY00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422162357.04be58d0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_95312126==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 05:16 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
><snip Gygax stuff>
>
>Well, the basic lesson that I see in the whole Gygax thing
>is never, ever run a company and staff it with your friends.

Very very very true.  One thing that a friend who grew up in Lake Geneva 
once told me was that Don Kay (the "K" in the original "G/K" logo for TSR) 
was the only fellow that Mr. Gygax would listen to back then, in the case 
of disputes.  Kay died rather suddenly (see his obit in Strategic Review 
#2) - it would have been very very interesting to see how things might have 
turned out had he lived.

>
>I did that with my own software startup, and it was the worst
>mistake I ever made in my life.
>
>Either that, or I'm not a very good judge of character.  But
>to be on the safe side, don't make your friends your business
>partners.

Good advice.

There's gotta be an ObTrav for this - perhaps never hire your friends as 
crew for your Free Trader?  (But that would undermine most parties of 
adventurers!  Or is this merely an observation that the sorts of trouble 
the average group gets into is merely to be expected?  Oh, the 
possibilities....:))

Victor

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_95312126==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 05:16 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&lt;snip Gygax stuff&gt;<br><br>
Well, the basic lesson that I see in the whole Gygax thing<br>
is never, ever run a company and staff it with your friends.
</blockquote><br>
Very very very true.&nbsp; One thing that a friend who grew up in Lake
Geneva once told me was that Don Kay (the &quot;K&quot; in the original
&quot;G/K&quot; logo for TSR) was the only fellow that Mr. Gygax would
listen to back then, in the case of disputes.&nbsp; Kay died rather
suddenly (see his obit in Strategic Review #2) - it would have been very
very interesting to see how things might have turned out had he
lived.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&nbsp;<br>
I did that with my own software startup, and it was the worst <br>
mistake I ever made in my life.<br><br>
Either that, or I'm not a very good judge of character.&nbsp; But <br>
to be on the safe side, don't make your friends your business <br>
partners.</blockquote><br>
Good advice.<br><br>
There's gotta be an ObTrav for this - perhaps never hire your friends as
crew for your Free Trader?&nbsp; (But that would undermine most parties
of adventurers!&nbsp; Or is this merely an observation that the sorts of
trouble the average group gets into is merely to be expected?&nbsp; Oh,
the possibilities....:))<br><br>
Victor<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_95312126==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:34:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:34:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
> 1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
> (b) working because they are not concerned with the money aspect of
> the work, but are motivated by something else entirely.

Put me down as a 1b, shifting very rapidly into 3 due to my employer's
incompetence.


> 3.  Loafers (Very Large Majority)
>      These people realize that no matter how much (or how little)
> they work, they will get at least enough money to subsist

... true already in many countries ...


> and if they earn more, the government is likely to take it all from
> them.

More true under the current system (at least in Aus) than under the
proposed one.  Under the proposed system, if you work more you *will*
earn more, as opposed to Australia's current system where you can
often earn less.  Still, even Australia has unemployment less than
10%, most of it transient.  High, but hardly the "Very Large
Majority".


> Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were making an
> attempt at earning a living,

The fact that you get to increase your income substantially if you
work is reason enough.  As Mr. Uhl points out, you won't keep 100% of
your income, which is true for any government that imposes taxation.
It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
some part-time workers.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
In-Reply-To: <200204222013.g3MKDLi02407@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422144908.009e84c0@mindspring.com>

At 08:13 PM 4/22/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete 
>the
>process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be spending the evening
>of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San Francisco. If there are any
>fellow Travellers who would care to get to gether with me that evening for 
>beer
>and/or conversation, please let me know.

There are a few of us about..

Contact me by personal email and we'll work something out.  I'll forward 
this to the Traveller in SF list.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

>> and if they earn more, the government is likely to take it all from
>> them.
>
>More true under the current system (at least in Aus) than under the
>proposed one.  Under the proposed system, if you work more you *will*
>earn more, as opposed to Australia's current system where you can
>often earn less.  Still, even Australia has unemployment less than
>10%, most of it transient.  High, but hardly the "Very Large
>Majority".

But that is 10% of the working population. Add in people on disability
and women who stay home taking care of kids (which is a full-time job,
but means that they have to be supported form somewhere) and the
unemployed suddenly rises dramatically. In Norway for example we
have almost 1 million people (out of 4.5 million population) on
disability (full time and part time). And that is what is breaking
our backs. Most of those people would be able to work full time
but since they can get away with a check from the state due to
disability......

>> Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were making an
>> attempt at earning a living,
>
>The fact that you get to increase your income substantially if you
>work is reason enough.  As Mr. Uhl points out, you won't keep 100% of
>your income, which is true for any government that imposes taxation.
>It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
>some part-time workers.

True, so true. But the wierd thing is that those people have to get
that money back from the state somehow, as social security or what ever
to survive. It's the state taking money and then giving it back again!

Tommy Grav


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <20020422.182803.-145167.1.Knightsky@juno.com>


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Kiri Aradia Morgan
<tiamat@tsoft.com> writes:
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Frank Pitt wrote:
> 
> > Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> > > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> > 
> > Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
> > 
> > Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
> > <grin>
> > 
> I'd have to agree.

Seconded.

                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:36:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:36:46 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <20020422.182803.-145167.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:50:37 -0400 "William Lane" <wlane@aessuccess.org>
writes:
> 
> >> Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> >> > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> >>
> >> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
> >>
> >> Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
> >> <grin>
> >>
> >I'd have to agree.
> 
> Please forgive my stupidity but who or what is Shooter?

Jim Shooter, editor-in-chief of Marvel Comics during the late 70s & early
80's.  Not without his virtues and talents, he is nonetheless known for
his heavy-handed, sledgehammer approach to acting as editor, and has
managed to alienate to this day many of the creative people in the comics
industry. 



                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"







________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:39:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:39:37 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on 
> this) had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
> role-playing industry.

I'm not certain I agree with this.  I've seen different accounts of
various proto-RPGs pre-1973 (and unfortunately, no, I don't have sources
to quote at the moment - sorry); the idea for a RPG did not spring solely
from Arnenson and Gygax... they were simply the first to *market* the
idea. 

I believe that RPGs *would* have eventually been published by other
people even if D&D had never existed, they would have simply appeared a
few years later.  And... if D&D had not been the first, then perhaps the
rest of the industry would not have needed to spend so much effort the
last 3 decades trying desperately to get away from the various clunky
aspects of D&D that Gygax pushed as being "the one true way" of
roleplaying...

> Very likely there would have been no card came industry ("Magic-the 
> gathering of spare cash", etc)

And this is a bad thing HOW...?  ;-)


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:52:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:52:11 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204221544240.16983-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 knightsky@juno.com wrote:

> > Very likely there would have been no card came industry ("Magic-the 
> > gathering of spare cash", etc)
> 
> And this is a bad thing HOW...?  ;-)

Well, the introduction of those awful CCG's freed up a lot of my evenings,
(because my gaming group turned into Magic zombies) and I got married
shortly after that...

yeah, right.

Nuke 'em.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:56:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:56:07 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <200204222116.ETY00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204221546070.16983-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Greed is a curious thing, and most people are not as immune 
> to it as they might imagine.

No, they aren't, and all kinds of human emotions that don't obviously have
any connection to the issue are tied up in money and business.  Doing
business together will either solidify or completely destroy a family, a
friendship, a marriage, or a lovers' bond.  It is like sleeping with your
best friend after 10+ years of platonic friendship; the reward if you
succeed and it all works out is truly wonderful, but the risk is your
heart and your spirit, and braver souls than me or thee have declined to
take it.

Kiri ^_^ (who worked on a small press magazine with two men, best friends
who are still best friends-- one of whom is now her ex-fiance and the
other her ex-husband, and still adores them both-- from the other side of
the continent.)

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>
References: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net> <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <20020423090608.A5160@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tim wrote:
[...regarding "group 3"...]
> > Still, even Australia has unemployment less than 10%, most of it
> >transient.  High, but hardly the "Very Large Majority".

Tommy Grav wrote:
> But that is 10% of the working population. Add in people on
> disability

... who are already being paid for by the government anyway, so no
extra cost there, and most of whom wouldn't be able to work if they
wanted to.  Hence the majority of them are not in group 3.


> and women who stay home taking care of kids

At the moment, they're already surviving.  Either by husbands (who
hence have a lower disposable income) or by the government.  Either
way, they're already accounted for.  They are also certainly not in
group 3!


> >It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
> >some part-time workers.
> 
> True, so true. But the wierd thing is that those people have to get
> that money back from the state somehow,

No, they don't.  That's the point; it's the ones who don't work at all
who get the money from the state.  I'll give an example:

An unemployed person (e.g, me) got about A$170/week in direct cash
benefits, about $40/week in rent assistance, paid 50% less for public
transport, up to 90% less on medicines, and further 10-50% concessions
on a range of things as diverse as internet access, movie tickets,
house insurance, power, and telephone bills.  His net income was $210
per week.  (If this person had a child, he/she would get the full
child care subsidy, quite a substantial amount.  But I'm not
personally familiar with exactly how much so I'll leave it out).

Suppose he works part time.  His employment income is say A$300 per
week, but the government takes income taxes of about $50/week from
that.  He no longer receives unemployment benefits, rent assistance,
and would receive greatly reduced child care allowance (again, leaving
it out due to lack of personal experience).  He pays full price for
public transport, various utility bills, medical expenses, and other
things adding up to about $70/week.  He no longer receives any rent
assistance.  After living expenses, his net income has dropped by $30
compared with unemployment.

So for $300 worth of work (about 15-20 hours), he nets $30 *less* than
if he was unemployed, thus keeping -10% of the wages from his extra
effort.  That's still enough to survive on, but *extremely*
discouraging.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 17:19:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:19:40 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CC499EA.1020901@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>>Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on 
>>this) had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
>>role-playing industry.
> 
> 
> I'm not certain I agree with this.  I've seen different accounts of
> various proto-RPGs pre-1973 (and unfortunately, no, I don't have sources
> to quote at the moment - sorry); the idea for a RPG did not spring solely
> from Arnenson and Gygax... they were simply the first to *market* the
> idea. 

I never said they were the only source, merely the first _wildly 
successful_ one. Quality is no guarantee of success, witness MS Windows 
and AOL.

Neither of them were the first in their genre, nor even the best, but 
there is little doubt that they are the 800 pound gorillas of the market.

D&D may not have been pure in a mechanical sense, but like BASIC, and 
'You have SPAM!' it is now the de-facto standard of comparison..the 
reason it got there is because it was 'the fustest with the mostest'.

(says an old-timer who remembers back when 'September on the Net' 
actually meant that it was, indeed, September...ahh those halcyon 
pre-AOL, pre-Prodigy, pre-Compuserv days...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 17:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Product Announcement
Message-ID: <016701c1ea59$53179d50$969393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0162_01C1EA61.9C2DD060
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Just a quick note to inform the Traveller community that we (Quiklink =
Interactive) will be putting the first "LBB PDF" up for sale in a few =
days.

This will be "Traveller's Aide #1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space"

Designed specifically for use with CT and T20, most of the information =
within is compatible with any version of Traveller; stats can be =
converted from CT to other rules sets as necessary.

Contents include:

- Extra combat rules
- Details of weapon scanner technologies and how to beat them
- A selection of large and small arms firms within the Imperium
- Some unique or special weapons
- The Imperial Weapons Permit System,=20
- A comprehensive guide to smallarms and melee weapons, with compiled CT =
and T20 data tables for all the weapons listed.

More news is available on the Quiklink website: =
http://www.travellerrpg.com/


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses

------=_NextPart_000_0162_01C1EA61.9C2DD060
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just&nbsp;a quick note to inform the =
Traveller=20
community that we (Quiklink Interactive) will be putting the first "LBB =
PDF" up=20
for sale in a few days.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This will be "Traveller's Aide #1: =
Personal Weapons=20
of Charted Space"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Designed specifically for use with CT =
and T20, most=20
of the information within is compatible with any version of Traveller; =
stats can=20
be converted from CT to other rules sets as necessary.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Contents include:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Extra combat rules</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Details of weapon scanner =
technologies and how to=20
beat them</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- A selection of large and small arms =
firms within=20
the Imperium</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Some unique or special =
weapons</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- The Imperial Weapons Permit System, =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-&nbsp;A comprehensive guide to =
smallarms and melee=20
weapons, with compiled CT and T20 data tables for all the weapons=20
listed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>More news is available on the Quiklink =
website: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.travellerrpg.com/">http://www.travellerrpg.com/</A></F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0162_01C1EA61.9C2DD060--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:06:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:06:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Neural Guns
References: <20020422220007.4ED0F279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC4A483.8DEF4B63@earthlink.net>

S.Feige

> Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
> I've got questions regarding Neural Weaponry.
> 
> All my knowledge is based on the few lines of Weapons Description and the
> two inserts into the Weapons Price Table in the Imperial Encyclopedia/MT.
> 
> The Stats I could work out are...

Even though someone's probably already answered your questions, I
thought I'd post anyway. Apologies for any waste of bandwidth.

Challenge #46 has them worked up in detail for MT. The specs are:

Neural weapons have 2 settings: stun and kill.

Stun will inflict as many damage points as necessary to render
the target unconscious, up to the weapon's limit.

Kill inflicts the full damage pont capability, whatever the
target's condition.

Should a mishap occur (marginal success), roll 2D on the Mishap
Table. Whether the damage modifier is added or subtracted can
be determined randomly or using Murphy's Law. If the intention
was to stun, increase damage; if the intention was to kill,
decrease damage.

TL   Type           Psi-Pen   DMs             Dam   Difficulty
---------------------------------------------------------------
16   Neural Rifle     10      As direct fire   7    Rifle
16   Neural Pistol    10      As direct fire   5    Handgun


David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
References: <20020422190106.A61D4279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002601c1ea5d$32d89f40$d3b18b90@computer>

> From: Steven Hudson
>   Given the role of the army in political strife in the later Empire,
> maybe the empire would have functioned better without any of those
> classes in the legions :|

Look how well it worked when they replaced them with barbarians.  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <200204221459.g3MExjP00155@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3CC55510.8412.A77E03@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002 at 7:58, Steven Hudson wrote:
>   That's why I went with "arguably" - it can be presented either way,
> with the big issue being whether some of those positions (eg, a Roman
> centurion) were officers or NCO's. By the social standards of the
> non-professionals in command (& staff) at Legion level they were only
> commoners for almost all purposes, but the Legion could sooner function
> without any of those patricians or equites than it could with even half
> of the centurionate absent.
> 
>   Given the role of the army in political strife in the later Empire,
> maybe the empire would have functioned better without any of those
> classes in the legions :|

Well the importance of even centurions in much of that strife argues 
for them being considered officers - very few coups in the modern world 
are started and managed by sergeants.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:38:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:38:29 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC55510.9619.A77EB7@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 7:29, Timothy Little wrote:

> The fact that you get to increase your income substantially if you
> work is reason enough.  As Mr. Uhl points out, you won't keep 100% of
> your income, which is true for any government that imposes taxation.
> It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
> some part-time workers.

Doesn't quite happen in NZ, but even ignoring GST (being a sales tax 
it's relatively invisible most of the time) the effective tax rate for 
being a low-income part-time worker can be up around 85%.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:41:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:41:12 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002 at 7:41, Paul Walker wrote:
> Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is 10,000Cr. 
> If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away 10,000
> of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick.  In
> my mind, this situation would produce three types of
> people:

You're assuming that 50% of the population does no work, here.
 
> 1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
>      These people continue to earn as much as they
> can, either (a) hoping that maybe the government will
> not need all of it to pay for those not at poverty
> level and that they will get to keep the extra
> (doubtful) or (b) working because they are not
> concerned with the money aspect of the work, but are
> motivated by something else entirely.

Why is it doubtful?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423090608.A5160@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <3CC55776.26351.B0DA34@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 9:06, Timothy Little wrote:
> An unemployed person (e.g, me) got about A$170/week in direct cash
> benefits, about $40/week in rent assistance, paid 50% less for public
> transport, up to 90% less on medicines, and further 10-50% concessions
> on a range of things as diverse as internet access, movie tickets,
> house insurance, power, and telephone bills.  His net income was $210
> per week.  (If this person had a child, he/she would get the full
> child care subsidy, quite a substantial amount.  But I'm not
> personally familiar with exactly how much so I'll leave it out).

Now I know why New Zealanders were so keen on going to Aussie to loaf 
round on the dole and surf (or so the Aussie government would like 
everyone to think). Here the base rate for an over 25 is (IIRC) NZ$157 
per week, rent support of about 1/3 of your rent. There's also 
considerable subsidy on your medicines (over and above what everyone 
gets), and some on public transport, but that's about it.
 
> Suppose he works part time.  His employment income is say A$300 per
> week, but the government takes income taxes of about $50/week from
> that.  He no longer receives unemployment benefits, rent assistance,
> and would receive greatly reduced child care allowance (again, leaving
> it out due to lack of personal experience).  He pays full price for
> public transport, various utility bills, medical expenses, and other
> things adding up to about $70/week.  He no longer receives any rent
> assistance.  After living expenses, his net income has dropped by $30
> compared with unemployment.
> 
> So for $300 worth of work (about 15-20 hours), he nets $30 *less* than
> if he was unemployed, thus keeping -10% of the wages from his extra
> effort.  That's still enough to survive on, but *extremely*
> discouraging.

We just have a (low) point after which you lose 70% of your dole for 
each dollar (gross) that you earn. You also lose the rent assistance at 
a smaller rate at the same time, and IIRC that starts as soon as you 
earn any money. The only reason this doesn't give an effective rate of 
over 100% is that the rent assistance is usually all gone by the time 
the reduction in the dole starts. Still working on a minimum wage job 
for an in-the-hand hourly rate of about NZ$1.00 - 1.50 isn't very 
encouraging.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Product Announcement
In-Reply-To: <016701c1ea59$53179d50$969393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <016701c1ea59$53179d50$969393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <200204222051330083.CE6F127D@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 4/23/2002 at 12:55 AM MJ Dougherty wrote:

>Just a quick note to inform the Traveller community that we (Quiklink=
 Interactive) will be putting the first "LBB PDF" up for sale in a few=
 days.
>
>This will be "Traveller's Aide #1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space"
>
>Designed specifically for use with CT and T20, most of the information=
 within is compatible with any version of Traveller; stats can be converted=
 from CT to other rules sets as necessary.

For those interested, I have just put up a preliminary webpage for this=
 product with a small sample of 3 pages (and the cover)

http://www.TravellerRPG.com/PDF/ta0001.html

As Martin noted, this PDF should be available for purchase within the next=
 2-3 days

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020423005500.10756.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 03:35 PM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Pilots are officers because the military does not
> >want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> >flying a $30 million airplane when it
> crashed.....even
> >though the average fighter jock is holding
> essentially
> >the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
> >arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
> >that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
> >wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
> >why........
> 
> That being said, during WWII the Germans used
> enlisted pilots, as did the 
> RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying
> sergeants, since they thought 
> there was no reason to tie up perfectly good
> officers in what was 
> essentially a technical skill.  That died as
> carriers came to the fore, and 
> more Marines came to be stationed on ships. Many of
> the old Flying 
> Sergeants received reserve commissions as officers,
> while retaining their 
> permanent rank as enlisted men.
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       
>
  >>
  ...My point....MAC
  >>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:59:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:59:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <008201c1e814$658fd700$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020423005823.20768.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > From: Michael Cessna
> >   Pilots are officers because the military does
> not
> > want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> > flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....
> 
> No.  The 'pilots are officers' thing dates all the
> way back to the
> beginnings of military aviation.
> 
> The logic, presumably, was that a pilot was a
> gentleman and an educated
> professional, of a higher social class to the mere
> tradesmen and mechanics
> that worked on the ground.
> 
> There have been exceptions - "Flight Sergeants"
> occasionally served as
> pilots in WWII.
> 
> Winston Churchill's comments on Naval Tradition
> apply to the traditions of
> other services too, to a considerable extent.  Don't
> try to find present day
> logic in them.
> 
> Alan Bradley
> 
  >>
  Actually, it dates from almost the beginning of
Marine Aviation. While the first Marine (and Naval)
Aviator was an officer, he was quickly followed in
Central American service, by enlisted pilots. This
tradition, although frowned upon by the Navy,
continued until just after the end of WW2.

   MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] officer selection traits
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020422200846.039e5b10@pop.wizard.net>

Hey!  Thanks for posting that link earlier to the Inc. magazine article 
about what the USMC looks for in officer selection.  The Robert E. Lee they 
talk about used to be my OIC fifteen years ago or so.  He was a major then 
and I was a corporal.  He is one of the finest officers I'll ever have the 
honor to meet.  (My father, both my grandfathers, my uncles, and lots of 
other blood relations were career officers themselves, so that was not an 
idle compliment.)  Yeah, I'm sure Bob Lee had leadership traits, judgment, 
and management ability in spades even back when he was a boot lieutenant 
barely old enough to shave.

I still remember him describing that assignment aboard that freighter full 
of refugees and adrift in the Phillipine Sea in 1975.  It was classified 
for a long time, but eventually it was declassified and eventually after 
that someone persuaded him to write it up for the Marine Corps 
Gazette.  Bob Lee was never a self promoter, the description you read in 
the Inc magazine article is very, very toned down from what happened.  The 
Gazette article has some of the more gut wrenching stuff left out, too.

I've used that incident and Bob Lee more than once in my own gaming.  It's 
the stuff of high adventure.

The only reason I've ever been able to find for having the incident 
classified was to avoid political embarrassment.  Reasons of national 
defense really didn't apply.  If you want to research the Marine Corps 
Gazette article that Bob Lee wrote about it, search for an article written 
by Robert E. Lee (I believe major at the time) published in the late 
1980s.  I recommend it as a small Traveller adventure.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <200204230113.EUF04788@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Kiri Aradia Morgan says
>Kiri ^_^ (who worked on a small press magazine with two men, 
>best friends who are still best friends-- one of whom is now 
>her ex-fiance and the other her ex-husband, and still adores 
>them both-- from the other side of the continent.)
>

Ah, I know that one.  My ex-wife, on very hot summer days, 
would say, "I love you from over here."
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV66kY7QNSljIazjBl0001b1b6@hotmail.com>

Victor Raymond wrote,

>I would definitely agree with you about this.  My point is that if you
should praise Gygax, you ought to also praise David L. Arneson, as well -
it's only fair.  Gygax wouldn't have had D&D if Arneson had not started
doing Blackmoor.  And there is a fair bit to point out that isn't so
praiseworthy.<

Then the complaint should be that the quote should read "Gygax and Arneson
are to gaming what Kirby and Lee were to comics", not that the half
presented is someone false.

>Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.  Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR when Mr.
Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and co-authorship.<
and,
>Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and co-authorship.  TSR
and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.<

Not according to what I've heard.
Which is that Arneson wished no part in developing the game into what became
AD&D. Thus the desire to not continue paying royalties when he was doing no
work.
While there is likely more to it than that, the point is there may be
another view.

>I will grant you that.  The Blume Brothers did not exactly paint themselves
in glory.<

And don't forget Lorraine Williams.

>Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with
a straight face. <

If you mean "Chess, Poker, and the AD&D game system", then I not only say
that with a straight face, I submit it as proof of my position.
The simple fact is, however poorly it may have been stated or received, Gary
was absolutely right. The proof of that is in the development of the RPGA
and the Living City Campaign, which required a single, standard set of
rules, with little to no variation, in order to organize and manage a
national campaign.
The only problem with what Gary said was there was no organization to make
what he said stick.

>Not the people I am referring to.  Do keep in mind the dispute between TSR
and Chaosium regarding the Lovecraftian Mythos, etc. (which involved the
Lovecraft estate and Mr. Moorcock's solicitors), just as an example of
something other than your generalization.<

I am aware of that.
Are you aware that Gary contacted Chaosium and negotiated a mutual promotion
to resolve the matter but the Blumes squashed the deal because they didn't
want to give any support to anyone else?

>Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?<

Is that really necessary?

I wish to refute various assertions as to the failures of Gary Gygax that
are, quite simply tainted by a less than positive view of the individual. If
we are to judge by that standard, then I don't think anyone will survive.
Whatever Gary's failings as an individual might be, they most certainly do
not detract from his accomplishments as a game designer.
Further, when that is what people use to diminish those accomplishments, it
does, to me, speak more of their failings than the person they are seeking
to tear down.


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <200204230113.EUF04788@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204221831540.3200-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Kiri Aradia Morgan says
> >Kiri ^_^ (who worked on a small press magazine with two men, 
> >best friends who are still best friends-- one of whom is now 
> >her ex-fiance and the other her ex-husband, and still adores 
> >them both-- from the other side of the continent.)
> >
> 
> Ah, I know that one.  My ex-wife, on very hot summer days, 
> would say, "I love you from over here."

:)

ikaros is one of my dearest friends in the world, actually.  But turns out
he's gay, not bi, so the marriage didn't quite work out like we thought it
would.

The Vanguard years were "...the best of times, the worst of times..." in
spades.  We really found out who our friends actually were.

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <f9.1b1126af.29f61465@aol.com>

As it happens, I am quite good friends with both Gary Gygax, and Dave 
Arneson, and I am better acquainted than most with their contributions to the 
hobby. I am the better for knowing them, and for having worked with both of 
them.

They are happy to share the title: "Co-creators of Roleplaying" and with good 
reason, because they invented it. Much like Gilbert and Sullivan, they have 
their mutual antagonisms, but for the time they worked together, they 
invented the industry by which I now make a living. Something like 
roleplaying might have come about without them, because others were thinking 
along the same lines at about the same time, but they made it happen. 
Traveller would not exist without them. I'd be a game publisher, but it would 
be a radically altered industry, primarily board wargames and miniatures 
rules . . . 

Both Gary and Dave admit they missed opportunities. Who of us hasn't? 
However, I am not willing to press "reset" and eliminate one or the other of 
their contributions just to see what would happen. THings could have turned 
out a LOT worse.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Traveler Ring
In-Reply-To: <3CC4A483.8DEF4B63@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001e01c1ea6a$29c788a0$2f7de40c@loki>

This is the ever occasional and irregular annoyance declaring the
existence of the...

Traveller Web Ring
http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=traveller;action=info

If you have a Traveller web site come on board and we'll spread the
community.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019492558.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20422.181710.3T8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
>> "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
>> > eliminate poverty?
>> 
>> The government defines a poverty line.  People at and near that 
>> point pay no income taxes.  Anyone with an income greater than 
>> that pays a graduated tax, depending upon how far above it they 
>> are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the 
>> government (much like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any 
>> money in) to give them money equal to being at the poverty line.  
>
> Not quite; one idea behind negative income tax as I'm aware of it is that 
> it's
> supposed to eliminate the welfare effect where by getting a job, your income
> doesn't improve.  Thus, if the poverty line is $10,000/year and you made less
> than that, tax would be something like 50% of income - $5,000, so if you made
> $2,000/year, your taxes would be -$4,000/year.

The version I recall being interested in was one that included a flat
rate tax.

So say the "poverty line" was $10, and the tax rate was 10%. 

So your taxes would be (income - $10,000)*0.1.

income	taxes
------	------
20,000	1,000
15,000	  500
10,000	    0
 5,000	  500
     0	1,000

Obviously, you'd want to move the break point up, or the tax rate up or
both to get a true replacement for welfare.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:16:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:16:33 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <000001c1ea22$d25c5a60$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <20422.182252.6Q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> If anyone in the Portland/Vancouver area that is on this list hears
> about any job that could use someone good with computers or telecom,
> please email me off-list.

I'm trying to scrape by until I can sell some property. Alas, it looks
like I need to spend several hundred bucks I can't afford just to make
the property likely to sell... :-(

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:19:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:19:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDBDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20422.183614.1Z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> You have that exactly backwards. The LL say it's physical, which might fall
> under the ADA if you thinks it is handicapping you in some way. The RR (and
> the Pope) say it is an act of the will, meaning sin.

No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
sex isn't a sin.

*Acting* upon that attraction (ie engaging in homsexual sex acts) is
what's the sin.

The confusion is due to the common error of confusing "being
homosexual" with being a *practicing* homosexual. Not the same thing.

And it makes sense. If you had to actually be performing the
appropriate type of sex acts to have a given sexual orientation, then
nobody who doesn't have an active sex life would *have* a sexual
orientation. Which is utter nonsense.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV66kY7QNSljIazjBl0001b1b6@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422212448.04e52de0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_113567595==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 09:14 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the
>original dispute with Mr. Arneson.  Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR when Mr.
>Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and co-authorship.<
>and,
> >Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and co-authorship.  TSR
>and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.<
>
>Not according to what I've heard.

Well, since I've talked with Dave Arneson many times over the past twenty 
years, I've gotten it from the source.

>Which is that Arneson wished no part in developing the game into what became
>AD&D. Thus the desire to not continue paying royalties when he was doing no
>work.

Not at ALL what Dave has said.  And "not continue paying royalties" is 
incorrect - TSR stopped paying royalties very early on in the history of 
the production of D&D.

> >Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with
>a straight face. <
>
>If you mean "Chess, Poker, and the AD&D game system", then I not only say
>that with a straight face, I submit it as proof of my position.

I was referring to "View From the Telescope Wondering Which End is Which" 
in issue #11.  My apologies.  Now go back and say that with a straight face.

>(Re:  Chaosium) I am aware of that.
>Are you aware that Gary contacted Chaosium and negotiated a mutual promotion
>to resolve the matter but the Blumes squashed the deal because they didn't
>want to give any support to anyone else?

No, but good to know.  Nice to be clear that the Blumes were the direct 
problem there.


> >Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?<
>
>Is that really necessary?

Well, given the sweeping statement you made, yes.  Unless this counts as a 
retraction.


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

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<html>
At 09:14 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out
of TSR, true - but that came later than the<br>
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.&nbsp; Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR
when Mr.<br>
Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and
co-authorship.&lt;<br>
and,<br>
&gt;Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and
co-authorship.&nbsp; TSR<br>
and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.&lt;<br><br>
Not according to what I've heard.</blockquote><br>
Well, since I've talked with Dave Arneson many times over the past twenty
years, I've gotten it from the source.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Which is that Arneson wished no
part in developing the game into what became<br>
AD&amp;D. Thus the desire to not continue paying royalties when he was
doing no<br>
work.</blockquote><br>
Not at ALL what Dave has said.&nbsp; And &quot;not continue paying
royalties&quot; is incorrect - TSR stopped paying royalties very early on
in the history of the production of D&amp;D.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;Go re-read his editorial in
Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with<br>
a straight face. &lt;<br><br>
If you mean &quot;Chess, Poker, and the AD&amp;D game system&quot;, then
I not only say<br>
that with a straight face, I submit it as proof of my
position.</blockquote><br>
I was referring to &quot;View From the Telescope Wondering Which End is
Which&quot; in issue #11.&nbsp; My apologies.&nbsp; Now go back and say
that with a straight face.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>(Re:&nbsp; Chaosium) I am aware of
that.<br>
Are you aware that Gary contacted Chaosium and negotiated a mutual
promotion<br>
to resolve the matter but the Blumes squashed the deal because they
didn't<br>
want to give any support to anyone else?</blockquote><br>
No, but good to know.&nbsp; Nice to be clear that the Blumes were the
direct problem there.<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;Care to name any names, Mr.
Weiss?&lt;<br><br>
Is that really necessary?</blockquote><br>
Well, given the sweeping statement you made, yes.&nbsp; Unless this
counts as a retraction.<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_113567595==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <f9.1b1126af.29f61465@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422213416.04e54920@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

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What Loren said.  While I've known Mr. Arneson much better than Mr. Gygax, 
I think Loren says it right.  Thanks!

Victor

At 09:35 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>As it happens, I am quite good friends with both Gary Gygax, and Dave
>Arneson, and I am better acquainted than most with their contributions to the
>hobby. I am the better for knowing them, and for having worked with both of
>them.
>
>They are happy to share the title: "Co-creators of Roleplaying" and with good
>reason, because they invented it. Much like Gilbert and Sullivan, they have
>their mutual antagonisms, but for the time they worked together, they
>invented the industry by which I now make a living. Something like
>roleplaying might have come about without them, because others were thinking
>along the same lines at about the same time, but they made it happen.
>Traveller would not exist without them. I'd be a game publisher, but it would
>be a radically altered industry, primarily board wargames and miniatures
>rules . . .
>
>Both Gary and Dave admit they missed opportunities. Who of us hasn't?
>However, I am not willing to press "reset" and eliminate one or the other of
>their contributions just to see what would happen. THings could have turned
>out a LOT worse.
>
>LKW
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

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<html>
What Loren said.&nbsp; While I've known Mr. Arneson much better than Mr.
Gygax, I think Loren says it right.&nbsp; Thanks!<br><br>
Victor<br><br>
At 09:35 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As it happens, I am quite good
friends with both Gary Gygax, and Dave <br>
Arneson, and I am better acquainted than most with their contributions to
the <br>
hobby. I am the better for knowing them, and for having worked with both
of <br>
them.<br><br>
They are happy to share the title: &quot;Co-creators of Roleplaying&quot;
and with good <br>
reason, because they invented it. Much like Gilbert and Sullivan, they
have <br>
their mutual antagonisms, but for the time they worked together, they
<br>
invented the industry by which I now make a living. Something like <br>
roleplaying might have come about without them, because others were
thinking <br>
along the same lines at about the same time, but they made it happen.
<br>
Traveller would not exist without them. I'd be a game publisher, but it
would <br>
be a radically altered industry, primarily board wargames and miniatures
<br>
rules . . . <br><br>
Both Gary and Dave admit they missed opportunities. Who of us hasn't?
<br>
However, I am not willing to press &quot;reset&quot; and eliminate one or
the other of <br>
their contributions just to see what would happen. THings could have
turned <br>
out a LOT worse.<br><br>
LKW<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
TML mailing list<br>
TML@travellercentral.com<br>
<a href="http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml" eudora="autourl">http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml</a></blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_113712064==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20422.183614.1Z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEDKDMAA.tml@downport.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>
> No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
> homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
> sex isn't a sin.

You misstate the RR POV, which says there is no *being* in the equation.
That would suggest something physical. They tend to deny causation outside
of the fallen (sin) condition. You correctly stated the RCC position, which
like the jewish view holds that only the act is condemnable.

ObTrav: at what LL do we see the appearance of the Thought Police? Can they
exist at any LL, for 1 on up where the technology or psionic ability exists
to determine intent before action? Or does there have to be a high LL before
your thoughts become criminal?

_____________________________________________
The Traveller Web Portal
http://www.downport.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW! I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <F20Jpjc0D543TuylJc000000369@hotmail.com>

From: Jeff Zeitlin <editor@freelancetraveller.com>

     "...indicating that he wants to make Freelance Traveller the 
rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively flattering;..."


Mr. Zeitlin,

     Flattering it may be, but it also an award that you richly deserve, 
sir.  You EARNED it through both superb editing work and constant labor in 
maintaining such a fine web site.

     "Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who 
has allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work 
more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as 
you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people 
like you are too valuable to lose."

     Others may help in providing content, but the presentation is yours 
alone and that is the reason you and your site are being recognised.  The 
best of content, arranged in a haphazard, harum-scarum manner in a 
ill-designed site, would have been lost.  You crafted a wonderful showcase 
AND selected a pleasing variety of things to display within it AND ensured 
those items were well crafted.  The recognition and accolades are yours and 
yours alone, as they should be.
     Look at the "Wounded Colossus" material.  I originally posted it to the 
TML in several disjointed, rambling posts over the period of a month, 
nothing more than ill-spelled mess of grammatical horrors which contained 
some ideas that struck the List's fancy.
     You, Mr. Zeitlin, took all that dross and refined it.  You patiently 
collected each post, corrected the gaffes, goofs, and faux pas, cleaned up 
the presentation, whittled away redundancies, and acted in every way as a 
true editor, the type of editor ever writer should have.  You made the 
"Wounded Colossus" material far better than it had been when it left my 
hands.  That is why you have been honored.
     My congratulations, sir.  This honor are well deserved and long 
overdue.  Bravo, sir!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. Whipsnade, aka William R. Cameron

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:11:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:11:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F167tLLVTnE9Q3uQIhN00007388@hotmail.com>

From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>

     "EXCUSE ME? After your "Colossus" posts detailing your alternate ending 
to the MT Rebellion, I'll be happy to debate your statement with you or 
anyone else."

     "That was a masterful piece of work, sir, and one that has become a 
permanent part of my MT campaigns. I haven't seen much of your other work 
but quality, not quantity, is the mark of excellence (as Imperium Games 
found out the hard way)."


Mr. Smart,

     Thank you, sir, you are very kind.  I was fortunate in having the 
active participation of the List while posting WC.  I was doubly fortunate 
that Mr. Zeitlin both accepted it for inclusion in his site and polished it 
to a high luster.
     However, despite producing the "Colossus" material, I am not the best 
of web surfers or researchers!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F35zRPTNZStgLzhVOJw00000252@hotmail.com>

From: "Beth" <shylady69@runbox.com>

     "It's OK, nothing to worry about.  Everything will be alright.  Why 
don't you follow these two gentlemen to a nice comfy room we have for you.  
All padded and quiet.  Latter we will feed you.  We hope that you like 
pudding.  We will even fit you with a new jacket as well."


Ms. Shylady,

     I do enjoy a good pudding, but it so hard to grip the spoon with one's 
toes...
     May I also send along my condolences with regards to your bouts of 
Whipsnade's Syndrome?  "Brain Flatulence", as it is commonly known, is a 
horrid affliction.  The other day, I left the Whipsande Manse, Casa Diablo, 
without first putting on socks.  I didn't even notice my lack of socks until 
the local constabulary had run me in for not wearing pants.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422212448.04e52de0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV142mduL7Uu9Pyo250001b287@hotmail.com>

>Well, since I've talked with Dave Arneson many times over the past twenty
years, I've gotten it from the source.<

And since I've talked with Gary Gygax, so have I.

>Not at ALL what Dave has said.  And "not continue paying royalties" is
incorrect - TSR stopped paying royalties very early on in the history of the
production of D&D.<

Well I guess they have different opinions of how it went down.

>I was referring to "View From the Telescope Wondering Which End is Which"
in issue #11.  My apologies.  Now go back and say that with a straight
face.<

I don't have access to that.
Either way, it wouldn't really matter. You see, I've heard worse than
anything I've ever seen in print directed at me personally by Gary. So
anything sent in general will simply amuse me by how mild the statements
are.

>Well, given the sweeping statement you made, yes.  Unless this counts as a
retraction.<

It is not a retraction, but I will not elaborate on it. I see no reason to
engage in the gratuitous slamming of people just to satisfy your curiousity.
It will have to suffice that I've read critiques of Gary's work by people
whose works I regard as jokes.

Instead, I would also support what Loren said. I would simply note that no
one was eliminated by the statement being discussed. What you have it a
statement of support and admiration by someone who only regularly
communicates with one of the people involved. But it seems rather than being
satisfied with suggesting, as I did, that the statement is best completed by
adding, Arneson and Lee, people would rather go to attacking Gary.


Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 22:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon Apr 22 21:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <20020422041531.74282.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DAV43ywkGmY8TkomDt500003bb3@hotmail.com>

James Ramsay wrote:


> Until we develop AI or very very sophisticated system
> this would be useless in the real world.

I agree.  I suppose the system developer would claim he _had_ created a very
very sophisticated system.  I wouldn't presume to judge until I'd seen it in
operation, but I'm fairly skeptical that this things ready to set the world
on fire.

> How does a
> computer now whether a person is reaching for a gun or
> there wallet? Answer they can't.

Police and security officers, while performing lightyears beyond computers,
have a less than unblemished record in this regard.

> All it can do is
> determine that an image of a person looks like its
> reaching for something.

I think the system may scan pedestrian crowds looking for non-typical
patterns of traffic movement.  (Person X has passed the jewelry store 5
times in the past 10 minutes, while persons Y and Z have been loitering a
few yards away for about the same amount of time.  I'd better wake Officer
Friendly.)  Admittedly, this assumption is based on the WAG Algorithm.

> If they stopped wasting money
> on tech dreams such as this actual humans could be
> hired.

If by "tech dreams" you mean any new research, I disagree with the
philosophy implicit in your statement.  If, on the other hand, you mean
pie-in-the-sky nonsense, we're on the same page.

I'm mindful of a company some years ago that did quite well for itself in
the Texas area selling a "sniffer" gadget.  Their product was a box with a
few dials, some lights, and an antenna.  They marketed their product as
being able to sense drugs, explosives, and fire accelerants.  Based on some
slick brochures and some test demonstrations (where the fix was in, of
course) a number of schools, security firms and (sigh) police departments
purchased this fraudulent piece of garbage.

I don't know if the Cromatica system will turn out to be research or
pie-in-the-sky nonsense.

> And for a very long time into the future humans
> (even the ones typically hired as security guards)
> will have more reasoning ability than all the
> computers in the world!

I couldn't agree more.  And this touches on my real quibble with this or any
other advance that makes something like law enforcement/security easier or
more convenient.

    <Old Coot Rant: Enable>

Eaiser and more convenient don't necessarily translate to better.

In general, and all other things being equal:

Who's more diligent?
 a guard at a building with doors open to the public
or
 a guard at a building with biometric security.

Who knows more (in his/her head) about the people and area (s)he polices?
a cop of today with a car, cell phone, two way radio and mobile data
terminal
or
a cop of eighty years ago who walked a beat, contacted headquarters from a
call box, and was forced to rely on his/her knowledge and memory of their
beat and its inhabitants to do their job.

If the video scanning technology that checks body measurements against those
of known offenders becomes commonplace and reliable, how good will the next
generation of police be at remembering and recognizing faces?

If Cromatica works and becomes popular, how many security officers will set
the alarm and read / nap / play video games until the system says there's a
problem?

    <Old Coot Rant: Disable>

> Robotic security guards have
> been in development since the 70's and no one has yet
> to make one that is accurate and/or doesn't cost more
> than the police budget for a small city.

Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being tried
out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 22:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Mon Apr 22 21:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEDKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <B8EA36A9.3918%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

on 4/22/02 7:46 PM, Swordy at tml@downport.com wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>> 
>> No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
>> homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
>> sex isn't a sin.
> 
> You misstate the RR POV, which says there is no *being* in the equation.
> That would suggest something physical. They tend to deny causation outside
> of the fallen (sin) condition. You correctly stated the RCC position, which
> like the jewish view holds that only the act is condemnable.
> 
> ObTrav: at what LL do we see the appearance of the Thought Police? Can they
> exist at any LL, for 1 on up where the technology or psionic ability exists
> to determine intent before action? Or does there have to be a high LL before
> your thoughts become criminal?
> 

I would think it the measure is LL, not psionic ability or TL.  "1984"
describes a pretty low TL world, maybe 5-6?, an that book pretty much
defines 'thought police'.

Of course, this measures only what the official government of a world
enforces, not the society at large - so if society on planet Rubella
believes people who like blue are 'evil' or a threat of some type, and
therefore don't employ them, throw them out of their homes/schools, ban them
from normal family/societal functions to the point of actual physical danger
and at least economic hardship - the LL can still be rather low (even if the
Rubellan government actively attempts to help blue liking people by giving
them subsidies).

Doesn't LL not only cover what is illegal, but also how often you can expect
to be hassled and how much hassle you can expect once your character finds
him or herself talking to a cop?

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 02:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue Apr 23 01:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B84@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Tackett [mailto:haegen2001@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 22 April 2002 10:38
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
> 
> 
> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to
> > Comics.
> Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember
> what he did.

Co-wrote Original D&D with Gygax, His campaign world was Blackmoor,
Gygax's was Greyhawk

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 02:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 01:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
Message-ID: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C1EAAD.1F0222C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


A sample from Traveller's Aide #1 is now on the QuikLink site....

http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html

------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C1EAAD.1F0222C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A sample from Traveller's Aide #1 is =
now on the=20
QuikLink site....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html">http://www.traveller=
rpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C1EAAD.1F0222C0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Love the cover!
Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the pdf will be somewhat better.
I will be buying this.

Regards,

Andrei Nikulinsky

>
>A sample from Traveller's Aide #1 is now on the QuikLink site....
>
><http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html>http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <016901c1eaa7$8a03d6f0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> Love the cover!
> Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the pdf will be somewhat better.
> I will be buying this.
> 
> 

Heh.... we'll hold you to that, mind.....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV142mduL7Uu9Pyo250001b287@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIECFHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Just to clarify why I equated Arneson to Kirby and Gygax to
Shooter

Both Arneson and Kirby were the primary creative geniuses in
their work, and both lost control of their creative work due to
business practices, which while legal, were morally questionable.

Both Gygax and Shooter, while having produced some great work (in
Shooter's case the "Michael" sequence in "The Avengers" was
groundbreaking for mainstream superheroes) appear (in their
writing at least) to have huge egos, and  seem to very easly
alienate other creative people. They both also seem to have poor
business sense, while at the same time seeming to think they were
good at the money side of the business, though admittedly that is
my judgement basd on second-hand reports, so is not inherently
reliable.

I'd agree with Sam's equating of Gygax to Stan Lee as well, while
I think the Shooter comparison is more accurate in terms of
temperment and style, the original team pairing part is more
accurate in terms of contemporienity.

With regard to the old "D&D created the industry" chestnut,
despite Loren's statement, D&D was neither original nor was it a
neccessary catalyst for the industry.

If TSR had not had D&D, Professor Barker's "Empire of the Petal
Throne" would almost certainly still have been published by TSR a
short time later. What became Arduin and Runequest would still
have been developed at or around the same time. "Traveller" may
not have been, but then we would have had something else it's
place, perhaps from Steve Jackson ('Car Wars' was almost a
roleplaying game from it's inception) or from FGU.

In terms of originality, just about all of the basic concepts of
what would become "roleplaying" were discussed in H.G. Wells
"Little Wars". At the other end of the roleplaying spectrum, the
trend toward heroic free-form/improvisational theatre had already
peaked in the late sixties and was losing it's lustre, with one
or two notable exceptions.

GDW, Chaosium, WRG, TSR, Flying Buffalo, Steve Jackson, Steve
Curtis, and many other primarily wargaming companies were all in
the process of adding fantasy wargaming and roleplaying systems
of various forms to their wargames, largely due to the popularity
of "Lord of the Rings" at the time. These were based originally
on personalization details for their army "generals" and "special
figures", and also on the trend toward small scale "skirmish"
wargames where the individual figures were heavily personalized
and even given "character", of which "Chainmail" was just one,
and not the most influential either.

While I'm not going to deny D&D's importance, it was not, IMO,
neccessary for the development of roleplaying.
Someone would have filled the role, just as someone would have
become the equivalemt of Bill Gates and Microsoft if Bill & Co.
had not been around, as both were merely a culmination of trends
rather than sudden discontinuities.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:34:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:34:38 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKECFHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rachel Kronick wrote :
> On 22 Apr 2002, at 20:20, Timothy Little wrote:
>
> > Blame it on the government, not Frank.  They're the
> > ones making decisions whether to hand out money
> > based on the origin of your ancestors.  I'm not
> > sure whether he was being serious about the
> > "lesbian" benefit or not.

Actually I don't think there actually is a _specific_ lesbian
benefit in New Zealand, I was being flippant.

> The solo parent benefit certainly is fact.

Yes, as are the special benefits for Maori, though I don't
disagree with the intent of the solo parent benefit or some of
the benefits targetted at Maori, my beef is with the people who
consider it a career choice, and the government that takes so
much of my money.

> I have little or no problem with the government's
> decisions regarding  benefits;

While I, on the other hand have huge problems with the way these
benefits are awarded.

I consider that such things should be targetted based on need,
not on membership of some arbitrary racial or social grouping, as
_that_, IMO, is racism, sexism, or whatever.

> the problem was that Frank came very close
> to implicitly saying that being Maori or being
> lesbian was a bad thing.

If I thought being Maori or being lesbian were bad things in
themselves I would have no qualms about saying it in public or on
this list. I wouldn't just imply it.

> His derisive tone, not the government's decision,
> was what irked me.

I'd say you worry about the wrong things then, complaining about
a mere derisive tone rather than the actual racism and sexism the
derision was targetted at. But that's your karma, not mine.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 04:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 03:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/23/2002 at 5:05 PM ondy wrote:

>Love the cover!
>Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the pdf will be somewhat better.
>I will be buying this.

The jpgs don't do it justice really, so I just posted a 4-page PDF sample=
 also. Same pages, but you get a better look at the layout!

http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001s.pdf

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 04:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 03:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Law Level (was: RAH and Libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <20020423093810.4CB01279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020423093810.4CB01279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <j6cacu0relbk1aah5d6noe68aoaq6v0ncf@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:32:03 -0700, Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Doesn't LL not only cover what is illegal, but also how often you can expect
>to be hassled and how much hassle you can expect once your character finds
>him or herself talking to a cop?

There are varying interpretations; the Original Canon seemed to make LL
exclusively a measure of how legal it was to go around armed beyond the
teeth.  Not unreasonable, necessarily, given that the level of
sophistication of role-playing in those days was low by today's standards,
and hakkenslash was "SOP". (N.B. I view Traveller as having been one of the
games that started the movement away from that.)

On the rare occasions that I actually address the question of what LL
means, I do currently interpret it as being the 'overall police hasslement'
likelihood - but I also like to expand the LL into a ULP,  l DGP WBH -
after all, there's no requirement for consistency in all areas of the law
(e.g., LL in NYC for weapons possession is essentially 9+, but I'd estimate
the hasslement level as only about 3 for most people in most situations).
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 07:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 06:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RPGs
Message-ID: <95.1b594c7e.29f6ba34@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/23/2002 4:39:08 AM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>GDW, Chaosium, WRG, TSR, Flying Buffalo, Steve Jackson, Steve
>Curtis, and many other primarily wargaming companies were all in
>the process of adding fantasy wargaming and roleplaying systems
>of various forms to their wargames, largely due to the popularity
>of "Lord of the Rings" at the time. These were based originally
>on personalization details for their army "generals" and "special
>figures", and also on the trend toward small scale "skirmish"
>wargames where the individual figures were heavily personalized
>and even given "character", of which "Chainmail" was just one,
>and not the most influential either.

You've obviously done considerable research if you know of Steve Curtis -- 
few people do nowadays.

>While I'm not going to deny D&D's importance, it was not, IMO,
>neccessary for the development of roleplaying.

I'm not as certain of that as you are . . . let us agree to disagree.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 07:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 06:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <DAV43ywkGmY8TkomDt500003bb3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC60A07.12144.5F6853@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002 at 23:39, Texas Redshift wrote:

> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being tried
> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

Not off-hand, but that sounds like one of Harry Harrison's from _War 
with the Robots_.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:35:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:35:26 2002
Subject: [TML] GT-FT question: Governers vs Legates
Message-ID: <3CC57085.ACFD07EB@mail.cswnet.com>

Two quick questions:

Whats the difference between an Imperial Governor and an Imperial
Governor-General?

On worlds like Arba and Yorbund, where there is no government, who does
the Imperium send, a Legate or a Governor?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] living space
Message-ID: <F209X64kDn9cvKluevz000007df@hotmail.com>

From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net>

     "But the Traveller navies, like the wet navies of today require 
sophisticated technologically savvy crewmen. Not the kind of people that 
would want to live under conditions that exist on even today's ships (one 
reason the U.S. Navy has so much trouble keeping people.)"


Mr. Carlino,

     A very accurate supposition, sir.  Living conditions were one, of many, 
reasons I did not put twenty years in the USN.
     During the ship habitability thread of last year, I described ad 
nauseum the living arrangements aboard my last ship, USS California.  A 
brief recap will fit here.
     I lived with 41 other men in an area slightly smaller than a two car 
garage.  Our bunks were stacked three high.  Personal property stowage was 
limited to a locker underneath our beds; approx 6' by 2' and 10" deep, and a 
smaller gym-style locker.  My division was lucky, our office was one deck 
below our berthing area so we could watch TV, play cards, etc., down there 
and let others sleep.
     Our berthing area was a "hazardous noise area" when underway.  That 
meant that ear plugs or muffs were required.  Both propeller shafts ran 
underneath the space, #2 engineroom was forward, #2 diesel was aft along 
with #2 pump room.  My last year aboard, the space finally recieved noise 
dampening pads on the bulkheads which lessened the problem somewhat.
     The sanitary arrangements can be summed up in one phrase; our two 
commodes didn't have stalls around them until my last year aboard.

     "One of the easiest, and cheapest in the long run, method of keeping 
high quality people is to give them decent living conditions. It is common 
on merchant ships today for seamen to live in the kind of berthing used on 
Traveller ships. It is my contention that by the middle of this century U.S. 
Navy ships will have similar berthing, if only because that's they only way 
they will be able to compete for the high quality technical people they 
need."

     Either that or barracks ashore for ALL personnel.  The SSNs and SSBNs 
have always housed their crews ashore when the vessel is in port.  The rest 
of the Navy should do the same.  Putting up with cramped living conditions 
would be tolerable during deployments IF you knew you'd be returning to 
barracks back in port.  As it stands now, most naval personnel live in the 
factories where they work.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

ObTrav - I've always thought that 57th century SDBs are crewed in a manner 
similar to USN SSBNs; two crews per vessel.  This keeps the SDB on patrol 
longer without driving the crew mad.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:46:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:46:12 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <200204231444.g3NEieV03093@uranus.networkwcs.net>

[... snip long non-Traveller stuff ...]

So what I would like to know from those who seem to have discussions
with G. Gygax is this: What is it about +1 axes and why do they seem
to appear in every early D&D module? Why, oh God why?!? THE AXES, THE
AXES!!!

... ahem. Sorry. I'll go back into topor again.

ObTrav: Do the Imperial Marines use +1 axes in shipboard hand-to-hand
combat? Would a superdense axehead make a +1 axe? If Dulinor had
killed Strephon with a +1 axe, would the course of the Rebellion been
altered (oh wait, it was all a dream, wasn't it Bobby?). Would F.S.
industries be willing to buy secret plans for a +1 axe spinal mount
stolen from the planet Xayag?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

Who showed supreme restraint when he gave the last p*racy thread a pass.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:52:13 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <F209X64kDn9cvKluevz000007df@hotmail.com>
References: <F209X64kDn9cvKluevz000007df@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <02042316460813.03729@avlendris>

Hey Guys

After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video 
(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net seems 
utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was a 
Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters). 

Anyone have any clue?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIECFHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <DAV142mduL7Uu9Pyo250001b287@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020423094644.04ea2d60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_1470066==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 09:42 PM 4/23/02 +1200, you wrote:
>If TSR had not had D&D, Professor Barker's "Empire of the Petal
>Throne" would almost certainly still have been published by TSR a
>short time later.

Not necessarily true.  Prof. Barker was introduced to D&D role-playing by a 
player from Mr. Gygax's Greyhawk campaign, who had moved from Lake Geneva 
to Minneapolis to begin college.  The subsequent game was mildly influenced 
by D&D, and aside from the "Purple Book" (the play-test rules that became 
EPT), there's no clear set of "role-playing" rules for Tekumel.  To be 
sure, Prof. Barker has talked about the role-playing done in grad school, 
but it wasn't intended for publication.

Victor Raymond


Victor J. Raymond
Department of Sociology, ISU
vraymond@iastate.edu
--=====================_1470066==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 09:42 PM 4/23/02 +1200, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>If TSR had not had D&amp;D,
Professor Barker's &quot;Empire of the Petal<br>
Throne&quot; would almost certainly still have been published by TSR
a<br>
short time later. <br>
</blockquote><br>
Not necessarily true.&nbsp; Prof. Barker was introduced to D&amp;D
role-playing by a player from Mr. Gygax's Greyhawk campaign, who had
moved from Lake Geneva to Minneapolis to begin college.&nbsp; The
subsequent game was mildly influenced by D&amp;D, and aside from the
&quot;Purple Book&quot; (the play-test rules that became EPT), there's no
clear set of &quot;role-playing&quot; rules for Tekumel.&nbsp; To be
sure, Prof. Barker has talked about the role-playing done in grad school,
but it wasn't intended for publication.<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times">Victor J. Raymond<br>
Department of Sociology, ISU<br>
vraymond@iastate.edu</font></html>

--=====================_1470066==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 09:20:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 08:20:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>; from martinjd@globalnet.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:56:21AM +0100
References: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020423091936.A5708@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:56:21AM +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
> http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html

Looks attractive.  I wonder, though, if it might not have been
possible to put GURPS stats in as well.  Might have widened the market
some, and with a decent little prog shouldn't be too expensive.
Famous last words and all that, I know...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you want to travel around the world and be invited to speak at a lot
of different places, just write a Unix operating system.
                                       --Linus Torvalds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
>Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
...
>I'm not anti-taxes; they're a necessary evil.  But it's important to
>realise the very bad efects taxation has on an economy.  Ideally
>taxation (and therefore, the public sector) would be limited to a few
>percent of GDP, so as to minimise the deleterious economic effects
>thereof.

  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a substantial
public investment in infrastructure? It's called the Third World.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>






>After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video
>(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net
seems
>utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was
a
>Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters).

I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 (in fact
i try to pretend it never happened.)

I once ran a Galactica campaign. however i had no real dimensions on the
ship. so i started doing some guessing. First i found somewhere stated that
Battlestars carried 75 fighters broken down into 4 squadrons. i had
problems with this number. it worked out to 18 vipers per sqdrn and 3 left
over for... what? replacements to the squadrons? again nothing i could find
explained it.

anyway I also found out that she could launch all her vipers at once.
launching both Landing Bays(I always referred to the entire pod as the
Landing Bays even though only the aft end of the pod was used for ship
recovery). this comes up with the very convenient number of 37.5. so we are
launching half a viper out each bay every time we are under attack.

well i made a few changes upped the number of vipers to 80 giving each
sqdrn 20. and launching 40 in a broadside. to figure the length of the ship
i actually did two things. (Now remember this is from memory from like 1986
8P )

First i did have a set of dimensions for the viper. so i calculated the
width of the viper and launch bay at both 37.5 and 40. i had a set of plans
that where actually used to build the Mock fighter and the Launching pad
set. i think i still have that set of plans at home ill look tonight if i
do ill send you the dimensions i worked with.

Once this distance was figured. i tried to figure out how many gun
positions where spaced along the launch tub exits. the only way i could
figure this was by looking at the model i had built as a kid. Now granted i
know this is not the best thing you could do to figure it but i really had
no other choice. i took a best guess as to how wide i thought each gun
position was and added it to my viper width total.

i then estimated that this total number was 80% of the length of a landing
bay. so i tacked on 20% more to get a total landing bay. then once i had
this number i estimated the length percentage of the landing bay to the
ships over all length. so if i felt the landing bay was 45% of the ships
over all length i just tacked on double the landing bay plus 15% more to
get a total length over all.

to find width i did something similar.

when the vipers where on final to one of the landing bays you could see
other vipers sitting on their launch cradles. i did a an estimate of the
width of the landing bays based on the LOA of a Viper. once i had that
number i used my bays as a guide for a WOA for a Battlestar.

The number that comes to mind from back then is like 1750 meters to 1950
meters depending on 37.5 per broadside to 40 per broadside. She really is a
huge ship. i cant remember the WOA. ill look and see if i can find my notes
on dimensions for the Galactica and my plans that have the actual viper
dimensions

the biggest problem is that i don't think any real dimensions were ever
published for the Galactica so any dimensions are really a best guess.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231606.EVJ07561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

shudson@lightspeed.ca says
>
>  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
>modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a 
>substantial public investment in infrastructure? It's called 
>the Third World.
>

There's a balance to be struck there.  It's possible to spend 
too much, or make the definition of infrastructure too 
vague.  Also, it's a good thing for governments to invest in 
areas where venture capitalists fear to tread (rural electric 
power, the original Internet), but it's also good to know 
when those things should become private.

Not Exactly ObTrav: I firmly believe that instead of spending 
money on the Space Shuttle, the government should be spending 
on an initiative to get companies to build a low cost means 
to get into orbit.  Any idea that could work should be on the 
table.  Companies should get incentives for working in 
space.  We need to get off this rock and make money, instead 
of doing science in a tin can in orbit.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>; from shudson@lightspeed.ca on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 08:52:20AM -0700
References: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 08:52:20AM -0700, Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
>   Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
> modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a substantial
> public investment in infrastructure? It's called the Third World.

Of course I'm serious.  And the problem with those countries is not
`investment' (which is a misused word: investments yield returns), but
lack of ironclad property and contract law, among other things.  The
First World pours money into those places, and it does very little
good.

There are things for which it makes sense that they be state-run
(e.g. power & water distribution, roads &c.) but not state-subsidised
(i.e. you pay for what you burn/drink/whatever).  There are things for
which it makes sense that they be state-subsidised (e.g. the military
and process of government).

That does not mean that the public sector should be as large as it is.
And it certainly doesn't mean that we should not investigate ways to
either privatise _or_ run on the local level.

Good sigmonster...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A man who lives in a country ought to contribute his fair share to its
defense and maintenance.  Everything else is extortion.
                                       --Poul Anderson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:13:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:13:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020423091936.A5708@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>

In the broadest sense, they are competing products. And even though one of
them is based on an "open" gaming system, the other is not ;)

From Miracle Max's Recipe Book:

	To one fresh paper cut;
		add 1 tsp. lemon juice
		and 1/2 tsp. salt

	mash with your thumb until screaming stops

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Robert A. Uhl

> > http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html
>
> Looks attractive.  I wonder, though, if it might not have been
> possible to put GURPS stats in as well.  Might have widened the market
> some, and with a decent little prog shouldn't be too expensive.
> Famous last words and all that, I know...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:19:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:19:53 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
> Once this distance was figured. i tried to figure out how many gun
> positions where spaced along the launch tub exits. the only way i could
> figure this was by looking at the model i had built as a kid. Now

Model of what?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On 22 Apr 2002 at 7:41, Paul Walker wrote:
> > Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is
> 10,000Cr. 
> > If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away
> 10,000
> > of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick. 
> In
> > my mind, this situation would produce three types
> of
> > people:
> 
> You're assuming that 50% of the population does no
> work, here.

Well, given Human nature, I would expect fewer than
50% to work.  If you can live decently without any
attempt to work, why would you work?  The entire
discussion originated around the negative tax, and the
explanation given has the government setting the
"poverty" level.

More than assuming 50% doesn't work, I assume that the
government will set the "poverty" level near the
median income.  Why?  It is good for reelection.  Now
before anyone jumps on my case, I recognize that this
is one of the major assumptions that will flaw my
arguement, but, frankly, I don't trust the government
to make the right decision.

The welfare system should exist for two reasons,
helping those who can't work to survive, and
encouraging those who can work to do so. 
Unfortunately, that is not what government officials
use it for.  They use it as a kick-back for votes. (I
do confess to a US-centric view of politics, but I
would imagine it is similar.)

The negative tax system as presented rewards people
for not working.  If you can work and you choose not
to, you should not get any reward.
  
> > 1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
> >      These people continue to earn as much as they
> > can, either (a) hoping that maybe the government
> will
> > not need all of it to pay for those not at poverty
> > level and that they will get to keep the extra
> > (doubtful) or (b) working because they are not
> > concerned with the money aspect of the work, but
> are
> > motivated by something else entirely.
> 
> Why is it doubtful?
> 

Because the government will be likely to take more
than they need.  Someone will present the idea that we
can't lower the poverty level but we may not get
enough taxes to pay next year, so we better take a
little extra to ensure that we can pay the poverty
level in the future.  Not to mention that we need to
take in more taxes for our pork barrel.  

I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
retiring tomorrow.  While I don't know where all the
money went, I know that much went to pork barrel, and
some went to folks who never paid that much in.

Maybe I'm not making sense.  Suffice it to say, that I
don't trust the government to make the right
decisions, and the negative tax seems to put much
trust in the government to make the right decisions.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:25:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:25:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231606.EVJ07561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:06:01PM -0400
References: <200204231606.EVJ07561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423101904.C5708@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:06:01PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> Not Exactly ObTrav: I firmly believe that instead of spending 
> money on the Space Shuttle, the government should be spending 
> on an initiative to get companies to build a low cost means 
> to get into orbit.

_Allowing_ companies to build and enter orbit would be a good start.

Part of the problem is that the technology to get men to the moon is
precisely the technology to get nukes to Naples.  Modern nation states
like it when a) only states posess power and b) as few states as
possible do so.

Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
but it's an interesting way to look at it.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say
to its subjects, `This you may not read, this you must not see, this
you are forbidden to know,' the end result is tyranny and oppression,
no matter how holy the motives.  Mighty little force is needed to
control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount
of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the
rack, not fission bombs, not anything.  You can't conquer a free man;
the most you can do is kill him.               --Robert A.  Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020423162545.82697.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> That would *only* be true if the median income was
> at the poverty 
> line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.

You are correct.  I think the pressure would be on the
government from those below median income to put the
"poverty" level as close to median as possible.

As those two numbers get closer, the quantity of
people who try to make more than will be taken is
reduced.  (I may be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of
work for 6,000Cr, but when the numbers get closer,
will I be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of work for
3,000Cr?)

The cycle continues until there are too few workers to
support the system.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162545.82697.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019580147.4086.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> --- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > That would *only* be true if the median income was
> > at the poverty 
> > line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.
> 
> You are correct.  I think the pressure would be on the
> government from those below median income to put the
> "poverty" level as close to median as possible.

Sure, and for those above the median income to put the 'poverty' level as low
as possible.  Seriously, the political pressures on tax levels with negative
income are not substantially different from those associated with general
welfare today, and it's very rare for welfare to allow someone to live at
median income.

Of course, if by 'poverty line', you mean the point at which your net tax rate
is zero, that may be at a fairly high percentile, but simply sitting without
working only gets you around 1/5 of that much money.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162545.82697.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Paul Walker wrote:

> --- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > That would *only* be true if the median income was
> > at the poverty 
> > line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.
> 
> You are correct.  I think the pressure would be on the
> government from those below median income to put the
> "poverty" level as close to median as possible.
> 
> As those two numbers get closer, the quantity of
> people who try to make more than will be taken is
> reduced.  (I may be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of
> work for 6,000Cr, but when the numbers get closer,
> will I be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of work for
> 3,000Cr?)

This kind of economic system will ONLY work if no one has a "shit job".

If I had my druthers I would spend every day writing.  I might or might
not make any money on it, but that's what I'd do.  I do not work as a
physicians' administrative assistant for the sheer pleasure of it.  It's
annoying and boring much of the time, even though I believe in what we are
doing here.

Economic systems such as the one in ST:TNG work the way they do because of
labor replacement.  Replicators and robotics and "holograms" (that aren't
holograms) ensure that human beings don't have to flip burgers, type other
people's correspondence, etc.  I don't know who does the plumbing.  There
are a lot of jobs that pay well because they are boring, dangerous, or
stressful that people will simply not do unless they either love the work
so much they don't care, or are paid a lot more than other folks, so it is
worth it to them, and not taxed down to the median.

Writers, artists, and scientists love to posit such economic systems,
because they love what they do and will do it whether or not they get paid
a lot.  The fact remains, however, that construction work, plumbing, oil
rigging, upper level administration, and a lot of other very important
jobs that bring in fat paychecks get done because people want the fat
paychecks, not because people's souls thrill at the thought of mucking out
your sewer pipes or sitting through another meeting about the
Tleilaxu-Seldon grant budget.  I would never sit through another meeting
if I didn't have to.  I don't believe that the people who are going to
come over next Friday and fix my telephone lines are in it for the fun of
it all, either.

That is why I don't see this as a valid social plan.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93!  Thou Art God tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:53:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:53:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> > Looks attractive.  I wonder, though, if it might not have been
> > possible to put GURPS stats in as well.  Might have widened the market
> > some, and with a decent little prog shouldn't be too expensive.
> > Famous last words and all that, I know...


We don't have a license to do GURPS products. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFC0ADB44D.1ECBB5A6-ON85256BA4.005A572C@pheaa.org>





>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
>> Once this distance was figured. i tried to figure out how many gun
>> positions where spaced along the launch tub exits. the only way i could
>> figure this was by looking at the model i had built as a kid. Now

>Model of what?

Of the Galactica. put out by Revell or Monogram i think. had decals to make
it either the Galactica or the Pegasus. i made mine the Pegasus. I also had
several Vipers. in fact i built one on a launch cradle with a scratch built
Interior. It was not very good but i loved it 8)

the launch bays where clear along the Port and starboard side. spaced among
them (twice i think) was this flat area of hull where they gun emplacements
where suppose to be. On the model they did get the Forward Angle on the
Launch bays correct. the fighters did not launch strait out they launched
at a forward angle from the ship.

On a side note the number of launch tubs on this model where off as well. i
think it had like 24 or 25 launch tubes per broadside. but this model was
not what i would call a real scale model of the ship. it had a number of
serious Inconsistencies compared to the one you saw every week on the show.

For Example there is a "Tube" type stricture running from the port landing
bay to starboard landing bay underneath the Galactica's main hull. my
Assumption in my game was that this "tube" allowed for viper/shuttle
storage and maintenance. it also allowed for the moving of ships from on
bay to another depending on the situation. IE say in battle Alpha bay was
damaged in such a way that no viper recoveries could be made but the
forward launch facilities where still operable. you could recover vipers in
beta bay and move them to alphas launch tubes.

on the model this structure is not a "tube" but a portion of the main ships
hull. in fact the mid Bay Pylon is also molded into this structure when it
should not be. so if you use the model as a guide the Mid Pylon is actually
part of this huge under hull mass. However if you watch the show there are
some nice starboard side flanking shots of the Galactica as she moves away
from you. in these shots you can see the Mid Pylon is its own separate
structure. it also comes down at a different angle than the Fore and Aft
Pylons.

I am no engineer but my "feeling" is that the mid Pylon serves as some sort
of load bearing or structural reenforcement member for the entire
structure.

Gads I'm talking to much. on a side note the released those models again
recently i wanted to buy them so i could build a second Battlestar to go
with my "Pegasus". 8)i still have my original Battlestar hanging from the
ceiling in my Office at the house 8P

Bill


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231704.EVL07840@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Kiri Aradia Morgan says
>
>Economic systems such as the one in ST:TNG work the way they 
>do because of labor replacement.  Replicators and robotics 
>and "holograms" (that aren't holograms) ensure that human 
>beings don't have to flip burgers, type other people's 
>correspondence, etc.  I don't know who does the plumbing.  

That's what I liked about Babylon 5.  There were not only 
people who cleaned the plumbing, there were jobless, 
desperate people as well.  I find that any other 
representation of human society is unreal in the extreme.

The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST 
series is that everyone is an officer.

ObTrav: IMTU the advent of new technology hasn't liberated 
too many of the working poor - in fact, in some cases, it's 
just made them the non-working poor.  There's a great 
Stanislaw Lem story along those lines...
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
References: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <02042318594616.03729@avlendris>

On Tuesday 23 April 2002 17:04, you wrote:
> >After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video
> >(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net
>
> seems
>
> >utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was
>
> a
>
> >Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters).
>
> I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 (in fact
> i try to pretend it never happened.)
 

I think we all did that ;->

I don't know if I have the heart to tell you.. you seemed to have put in a 
lot of work... but the vipers launch tubes come out along the "jaw line" of 
the Galactica, along the bottom edge of the "head" part. Also, if you watch 
the vipers emerge, more than one emerge at a time. What I always wondered 
was.... why Didn't they launch them from the "pods", why did they go to the 
trouble of moving them up to the "head"?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:12:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisc
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEIKCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: wlewis@mailbag.com
>
>My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete
the
>process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be spending the
evening
>of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San Francisco. If there are
any
>fellow Travellers who would care to get to gether with me that evening for
beer
>and/or conversation, please let me know.

When does your flight arrive, and when would you like to meet?  The San
Francisco Airport Holiday Inn is not in San Francisco, nor is it actually
very close to the airport, if I'm thinking of the right hotel -- but that
won't stop us from meeting someone who is really travelling.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <OFC0ADB44D.1ECBB5A6-ON85256BA4.005A572C@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEEEDMAA.tml@downport.com>

No scale, eh? Too bad. That might have been your answer right there :(

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
>
> >Model of what?
>
> Of the Galactica. put out by Revell or Monogram i think. had
[snip]
> but this model was
> not what i would call a real scale model of the ship. it had a number of
> serious Inconsistencies compared to the one you saw every week on
> the show.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:23:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:23:09 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFDA0A27EA.2AAADE7D-ON85256BA4.005EE7AF@pheaa.org>







>I don't know if I have the heart to tell you.. you seemed to have put in a

>lot of work... but the vipers launch tubes come out along the "jaw line"
of
>the Galactica, along the bottom edge of the "head" part. Also, if you
watch
>the vipers emerge, more than one emerge at a time. What I always wondered
>was.... why Didn't they launch them from the "pods", why did they go to
the
>trouble of moving them up to the "head"?

No they don't launch from the head. if you look at the movies during the
launch sequence they once and a while show an over the ship shot. you see
the vipers emerging from the forward part of the Pod. in fact i believe the
shot shows part of the forward portion of the pod where it slops back down
to a point.

Also if you look closely when the viper is on Approach to the landing bay
you will see all these vipers sitting in their launch cradles.

I had someone try to tell me this before but i went back and watched my
videos and confirmed the things i have said.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>; from traveller_tv@yahoo.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:20:37AM -0700
References: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost> <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020423113808.B6061@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:20:37AM -0700, Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
> great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
> money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
> putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
> retiring tomorrow.

It's a Ponzi scheme, pure and simple.

What we really need is for FICA to go into an 401(k) which is paid out
to one after some age, and is inheritable.  I don't mind enforced
savings for the future.  What I mind is being forced into a pyramid
scheme which we _cannot win_.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A Democracy: Three wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.
A Republic: The flock gets to vote for which wolves vote on dinner.
A Constitutional Republic: Voting on dinner is expressly forbidden, and
  the sheep are armed.
          --Anonymous

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:46:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:46:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>; from martinjd@globalnet.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:50:22PM +0100
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com> <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:50:22PM +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> We don't have a license to do GURPS products. 

You don't need one, any more than East Taiwan Metal & Plastic needs a
license to manufacture a Ford compatible gas cap.  As long as no
patent, trademark or copyright is infringed, one can do anything.  I
believe that interoperability is still protected, even in the
(horrendous) DMCA.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Earth is degenerating these days.  Bribery and corruption abound.
Children no longer mind their parents, every man wants to write a book,
and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching.
                           --Assyrian stone tablet, c. 2800 B.C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <200204231755.g3NHtrJ15709@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> 
>Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:46:08 +0100
>Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
...
>After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video 
>(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net seems 
>utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was a 
>Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters). 

  Well, the box for the Revell-Monogram kit says 45 cm :)  The fluff
text in the instructions says 2000' long, which isn't much better. 

  ISTR that there's a fairly serious treatment of this (based on 
one of the scale models from the series?) at:  www.chrispappas.com
IAC, there _must_ be a Galactica web-ring.

  In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the 
openings on the launch/landing bays.

  And on said Revell-Monogram model (85-3618) those openings are
no more than 4mm on a 400+mm ship. So 800m length looks to be a
minimum; given the proportions, perhaps around 500,000 Dt?

  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:18:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:18:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231803.g3NI3xJ17762@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
...
>>  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
>>modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a 
>>substantial public investment in infrastructure? It's called 
>>the Third World.
>
>There's a balance to be struck there.  It's possible to spend 
>too much, or make the definition of infrastructure too vague.  

  Heck, yes - bureaucracies (whether corporate or government)
are fully able to make horrid investment decisions. As can
individuals, of course :(

...Also, it's a good thing for governments to invest in 
>areas where venture capitalists fear to tread (rural electric 
>power, the original Internet), but it's also good to know 
>when those things should become private.

  Agree, broadly, although I think there's much merit in the
arguments for maintaining public ownership of some "natural
monopoly" items of infrastructure.

  ObTrav: the IN is _the_ crucial piece of the 3I's public 
infrastructure; the Throne maintains an effective monopoly
on its own ownership. Right?

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231803.g3NI3xJ17762@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019586447.9084.ajackson@ping>

Steven Hudson writes:

>   ObTrav: the IN is _the_ crucial piece of the 3I's public 
> infrastructure; the Throne maintains an effective monopoly
> on its own ownership. Right?

Well, by definition the IN is only controlled by the Imperium.  However, the
Throne does not have an effective monopoly on interstellar naval forces.

However, the other public infrastructure controlled by the throne is just as
crucial (though, once again, not a monopoly).  That's starports.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:35:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:35:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
Message-ID: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was revisiting the idea of the solo adventure as mentioned 
a while back.  And then I was surfing someone's blog today, 
and it had a parody of an Ayn Rand story (she is rather 
formulaic).  And that reminded me of a gizmo I got from an 
old copy of Spy Magazine that helps you become a fashionable 
writer in New York, writing in the style, of say, Bret Easton 
Ellis.

It's a thing with a sliding card, and you make your 
selections and then read your story.  

It would be great if someone could write a plot 
generator/navigator that used CT rules and ran on a Palm.  I 
don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play 
backgammon on the Metro.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:39:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:39:18 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <200204231834.g3NIYtJ26544@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

...
>  In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
>a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the 
>openings on the launch/landing bays.

  FWIW, there are photos of a scale model of a Galactica Shuttle at:
        http://www.EdMiarecki.com/Formatting/re06.html

  ISTR from the show that those windows aren't small, so that may be
in the 200 Dt range for Trav - guestimates, anyone?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:27:25PM -0400
References: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423124144.B6115@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:27:25PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> I don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
> backgammon on the Metro.

Ah, but there's also solitaire.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
'Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US
 companies like Microsoft.'                         --some AOLer
'To this end we dedicate ourselves...'                     --Don

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:46:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jim Catchpole)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:46:48 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
References: <200204231755.g3NHtrJ15709@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <008801c1eaf6$93b2af60$7b000150@jimcatchpole>

----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.ca>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 23 April 2002 18:54
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?


> >From: Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie>
> >Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:46:08 +0100
> >Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?

>   In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
> a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the
> openings on the launch/landing bays.
>
>   And on said Revell-Monogram model (85-3618) those openings are
> no more than 4mm on a 400+mm ship. So 800m length looks to be a
> minimum; given the proportions, perhaps around 500,000 Dt?
>

Well,  from memory,  the book of the film said 'over a mile long'. It also
claimed the ship was over 200 years old.

I don't know if you could consider that reliable though (my memory or the
book) ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:56:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:56:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
>> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being
tried
>> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
>> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
>> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?
>
>Not off-hand, but that sounds like one of Harry Harrison's from _War
>with the Robots_.

Isaac Asimov, The Caves of Steel, circa 1952.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:59:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:59:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFBB88BA8A.57A354AF-ON85256BA4.00674941@pheaa.org>





...
>  In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
>a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the
>openings on the launch/landing bays.

  FWIW, there are photos of a scale model of a Galactica Shuttle at:
        http://www.EdMiarecki.com/Formatting/re06.html

 If pop up a level on the website he has the Galactica model there. if you
look closely to the pod in some of those pictures you can see the launch
tubes running down the sides of the bay. intermittently you see spots where
gun emplacements are nested in-between launch tubes.

great site.

Bill



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:01:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:01:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <20020423124144.B6115@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231147070.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:27:25PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >
> > I don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
> > backgammon on the Metro.
> 
> Ah, but there's also solitaire.
> 
Where on earth is it that people pay $400 USD for a palm pilot?  I don't
have one, but I have never heard of anyone paying that much for one.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423153922.00b8bec0@urbin.net>

At 02:27 PM 4/23/02 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>I was revisiting the idea of the solo adventure as mentioned
>a while back.  And then I was surfing someone's blog today,
>and it had a parody of an Ayn Rand story (she is rather
>formulaic).  And that reminded me of a gizmo I got from an
>old copy of Spy Magazine that helps you become a fashionable
>writer in New York, writing in the style, of say, Bret Easton
>Ellis.
>
>It's a thing with a sliding card, and you make your
>selections and then read your story.
>
>It would be great if someone could write a plot
>generator/navigator that used CT rules and ran on a Palm.  I
>don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
>backgammon on the Metro.

You should have gone for the i705.  I keep up with my various Traveller 
PBEM games using my Palm.
You may not get the coverage in the Metro, but for cases like that, I 
download the mail first.
Then I read it, delete & reply.  When I get signal again, I toggle the 
outbox to be sent and empty the trash.

I'm also using Documents to Go store character data.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC5B895.7010800@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>>
>>>Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being
>>
> tried
> 
>>>out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
>>>letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
>>>predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

Wan't that called 'Brillo' ?


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:54:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:54:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip about robot policeman stories>

My favorite robot policeman is ED-209.  I have the feeling 
that if they do introduce robot policemen, they will be 
far "dumber" than the ones in the science fiction story 
you're talking about.

Me, I'm waiting for the autonomous infantryman.  Of course, 
you can get a real infantryman pretty cheap, so prices will 
have to come down.  

Of course, you can't beat an autonomous robot infantryman for 
sheer terror.  It's probably a bit harder to kill than a real 
infantryman, and it's probably a much better shot. And if you 
manage to kill it, all you've done is trash some electronic 
parts.  Not very satisfying.  And you probably can't capture 
one - even if you caught one in a net, it's probably too 
dangerous.

I think that the first versions should be some sort of spider-
legged robot along the lines of some of Rodney Brooks' 
creations.  They should hide in the daytime and come out at 
night.  They should be airdropped into the rear, and they 
should be used to spy on things.  Also, if discovered, they 
should shoot every warm body they see.  Maybe even give them 
a blade or two to become an intelligent lawnmower.

The psychological implications are great.  Now, who wants to 
go on patrol tonight, knowing that if you find one of these 
things, it's going to make meat by-product out of most of 
your patrol?

I think a gadget like this is already "do-able"
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:57:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:57:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
Message-ID: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>

For anyone that might know the answer:

While working on my Mire landgrab, I have come up with a question that I hope someone on the TML might know an answer for.  (Preferably a correct one.  :-) )

What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain in order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?  The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.  Can that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without affecting Mire's orbit?

Thanks.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 14:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 13:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
Message-ID: <200204232004.EVR06043@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Mike West" asks
>
>What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must 
>maintain in order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?  
>The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny 
>sun at a distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is 
>assigned to .4 AU.  Can that second planet orbit closer 
>than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without affecting Mire's orbit?
>

I would think that would depend on the mass of the planets 
involved.  Earth is at 1 AU, so Venus and Mercury have to be 
at fractions of an AU.  They both seem to have nearly 
circular orbits, so they don't seem to be affecting each 
other in a major way.

________________
Employees smoking
Off company property
I'm doing their work

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 14:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 13:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


>> We don't have a license to do GURPS products. 
>
>You don't need one, any more than East Taiwan Metal & Plastic needs a
>license to manufacture a Ford compatible gas cap.  As long as no
>patent, trademark or copyright is infringed, one can do anything.  I
>believe that interoperability is still protected, even in the
>(horrendous) DMCA.

Whether legal or not (HIGHLY debatable) more than one lawsuit has happened=
 over just such activity. While the suit may or may not end up thrown out=
 in the long run, personally I don't have the time, resources, or desire to=
 deal with the possibility. Without an OK from SJG on the issue it ain't=
 gonna happen (and yes we have approached SJG about this already).

Hunter




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 14:28:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 13:28:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423165305.2B007279D2@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E1706qU-0005s2-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> shudson@lightspeed.ca says
> >
> >  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
> >modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a 
> >substantial public investment in infrastructure? It's called 
> >the Third World.
> >
> 
> There's a balance to be struck there.  It's possible to spend 
> too much, or make the definition of infrastructure too 
> vague.  Also, it's a good thing for governments to invest in 
> areas where venture capitalists fear to tread (rural electric 
> power, the original Internet), but it's also good to know 
> when those things should become private.
> 
> Not Exactly ObTrav: I firmly believe that instead of spending 
> money on the Space Shuttle, the government should be spending 
> on an initiative to get companies to build a low cost means 
> to get into orbit.  Any idea that could work should be on the 
> table.  Companies should get incentives for working in 
> space.  We need to get off this rock and make money, instead 
> of doing science in a tin can in orbit.

This would only work if there were viable companies that actually 
had some desire to do any form of space industry.  This is not true. 
Space is regarded (rightly) as pretty risky and (IMHO wrongly) as 
pie-in-the-sky by pretty much any large corporation you can name.  
The L-5 folks tried to get various companies interested in solar 
power sats in the 70s and early 80s and we all see where *that* 
went.

IMHO, until both the costs and the the risks are reduced *and* the 
government gives serious inventives, we will see no private space 
industry.  I'm also guessing that costs and risks will only be 
significantly reduced when NASA (or some other national space 
agency) builds a nice large space station that various companies 
can simply more their operations into.

Sadly, the only private individuals who are working hard to get into 
space are pretty darn fringe (like the nut out in Eastern Oregon who 
is building his own personal suborbital rocket) and none of them 
have enough money to make a descent show of it.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 15:06:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 14:06:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
In-Reply-To: <3CC3930A.D2B8F94D@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20423.134050.0q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Richard Wilson writes:
>>So this is the reason that starports are on the planet's surface and 
>>highports aren't as common.
>
> http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%7B1F54AEED-A34B-41
> 1B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D
>
> JOY! Hydrogen wells! JOY! That will make the Downports in systems
> without gas giants or other significant surface water so much easier to
> deal with. I can see it now...

Thing is, worlds without significant surface water may not have much
subsurface hydrogen. After all, it's the water that the bacteria *make*
the hydrogen from.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 15:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 14:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>; from trav@RPGRealms.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:24:51PM -0400
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com> <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net> <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <20020423153918.A6692@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:24:51PM -0400, Hunter Gordon wrote:
> 
> While the suit may or may not end up thrown out in the long run,
> personally I don't have the time, resources, or desire to deal with
> the possibility.

This makes me sad--that someone cannot do something which is perfectly
alright for fear of having to defend its rightness.

Of course, Mr. Miller could always state in his license terms that
Traveller licensees can only be compatible with him and themselves,
not with one another.  _That_ would be quite proper, although I'm not
certain why he'd do it.  Perhaps to ensure a market for his own books,
or something.

Incidentally, can anyone tell me if GT or T20 is required to be
compatible with Miller's future work?  By which I mean will the
licensees be required to print conversions, or is Miller explicitly
allowed to print his own?  Just curious.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
  Anulos qui animum ostendunt omnes gestemus!
  Let's all wear mood rings!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 23 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
References: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <20020424075041.A7785@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mike West wrote:
> What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain
> in order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?

That depends very much on the planets.  Their orbits could actually
overlap in distance, like those of Pluto and Neptune.  Such an
arrangement can be quite stable, because each planet keeps the other
one in position with resonance effects.  In such a case, one planet
has an orbital period that is (on average) an exact ratio of the
other, e.g. 3:2.

It's probably not even too uncommon an arrangement: despite our
current inability to detect any but the largest planets about other
stars, we have already found one system with two planets having orbits
that are not very far apart.


>  The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a
> distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.
> Can that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU)
> without affecting Mire's orbit?

Well, not without *affecting* the other's orbit, since every planet
affects every other in some small way.  Without disrupting the other,
certainly.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:06:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:06:08 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <3CC499EA.1020901@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20423.140845.6w2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> D&D may not have been pure in a mechanical sense, but like BASIC, and 
> 'You have SPAM!' it is now the de-facto standard of comparison..the 
> reason it got there is because it was 'the fustest with the mostest'.
>
> (says an old-timer who remembers back when 'September on the Net' 
> actually meant that it was, indeed, September...ahh those halcyon 
> pre-AOL, pre-Prodigy, pre-Compuserv days...)

Actually, I was on the Net before Compuserve had access to it. And on
Compuserve as well. They weren't all that bad. The sysopsa on the
Forums mostly kept folks in line. 

AOL on the other hand...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:14:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:14:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020423153918.A6692@4dv.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>
 <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <20020423153918.A6692@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <200204231817330495.D3087258@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>> While the suit may or may not end up thrown out in the long run,
>> personally I don't have the time, resources, or desire to deal with
>> the possibility.
>
>This makes me sad--that someone cannot do something which is perfectly
>alright for fear of having to defend its rightness.

Yes but unfortunately in today's environment, it is all too likely to=
 occur. Good IP attorneys are ungodly expensive, a realization I have=
 already had to deal with more than once since I entered this business.

>Of course, Mr. Miller could always state in his license terms that
>Traveller licensees can only be compatible with him and themselves,
>not with one another.  _That_ would be quite proper, although I'm not
>certain why he'd do it.  Perhaps to ensure a market for his own books,
>or something.

That is something I doubt Marc would ever considered.

>Incidentally, can anyone tell me if GT or T20 is required to be
>compatible with Miller's future work?  By which I mean will the
>licensees be required to print conversions, or is Miller explicitly
>allowed to print his own?  Just curious.

I can't speak for GT, but I assume they have a license similar to our own=
 in which we are not required to be compatible with future work by Marc.=
 Then again it would not need to be required in our case as I would happily=
 add stats to support any new material by Marc if he wished us to do so. It=
 was my choice to include CT stats (with Marc's ok) and material in our=
 products, not something required by my license. I just wanted to also=
 support CT and the reprints. 






From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:33:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:33:29 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <00cf01c1eb16$c0dab0d0$a3e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C1EB1F.0FF78DC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Okay, I asked this before but all my mail is gone in the great HD =
explosion.

I need a cover for the Diaspora Phoenix novel; there's not money =
available. We have a mockup of the cover but the actual pic needs to be =
done. Anyone care to help out?


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses

------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C1EB1F.0FF78DC0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Okay, I asked this before but all my =
mail is gone=20
in the great HD explosion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I need a cover for the Diaspora Phoenix =
novel;=20
there's not money available. We have a mockup of the cover but the =
actual pic=20
needs to be done. Anyone care to help out?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C1EB1F.0FF78DC0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
References: <3CC55510.8412.A77E03@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC5E36E.801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Well the importance of even centurions in much of that strife argues 
> for them being considered officers - very few coups in the modern world 
> are started and managed by sergeants.

Au contraire. A number of coups in Africa have been started by Non-coms. 
IIRC one of the Liberian coup leaders started as a Master Sergeant, 
wasn't he? Robert someting or another...

Also, I believe it was a number of Non-coms who started one of the coups 
against Noriega in Panama, just before the US invasion.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:47:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:47:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423165307.DA28C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020423153147.00a543e0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:19:04 -0600, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

>Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
>nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
>but it's an interesting way to look at it.

Well, that follows naturally from the idea that every adult should own and 
carry a gun.

Unfortunately, this kind of situation (at either scale) seems to require 
people who aren't stupid.  While the increased selection pressures may or 
may not eventually produce such a population, I don't think I'd like to 
experience the weeding-out process, any more than I'd like to live in his 
Coventry.  I /like/ civilization, thank you very much.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <02042316460813.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <001001c1eb19$a772e880$0f01a8c0@terry>

> After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on
video
> (hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net
> seems
> utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found
was
> a
> Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters).
> 
> Anyone have any clue?

It seems there is some discussion on the matter. Check out this link.

http://ravensbranch.tripod.com/galacticasize.html

Regards,

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020423153147.00a543e0@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231558080.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Kelly St.Clair wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:19:04 -0600, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> 
> >Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
> >nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
> >but it's an interesting way to look at it.
> 
> Well, that follows naturally from the idea that every adult should own and 
> carry a gun.
> 
Yes, but...

Guns can kill one person.  A firefight, even a large one, is over when
it's over, although some gunshot wounds don't kill immediately.

Nukes don't work that way.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:12:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020423153147.00a543e0@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <20020423165307.DA28C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423190649.00cb5d28@192.168.0.1>

At 03:40 PM 4/23/2002 -0700, Kelly St.Clair wrote:
>On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:19:04 -0600, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>>Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
>>nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
>>but it's an interesting way to look at it.
>Well, that follows naturally from the idea that every adult should own and 
>carry a gun.
>Unfortunately, this kind of situation (at either scale) seems to require 
>people who aren't stupid.  While the increased selection pressures may or 
>may not eventually produce such a population, I don't think I'd like to 
>experience the weeding-out process, any more than I'd like to live in his 
>Coventry.  I /like/ civilization, thank you very much.

I just finished reading Coventry.  Coventry was his "your right to swing 
your fist ends at someone else's nose" system.
That was America after the Second Revolution, that was civilization.
If you rejected Coventry or were denied Coventry, you were sent to the 
walled off section where the strong ruled the weak.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17A35@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

The emphatically polite Larsen:
Either that or barracks ashore for ALL personnel.  The SSNs and SSBNs have
always housed their crews ashore when the vessel is in port.  The rest of
the Navy should do the same.  Putting up with cramped living conditions
would be tolerable during deployments IF you knew you'd be returning to
barracks back in port.  As it stands now, most naval personnel live in the
factories where they work.

Mikey:
Australian DOD has always had onshore quarters for Naval personnel, or
provided rent subsidies and the like to live in town (where appropriate).
That's weird the US DOD does not...

Oh my god. 

That means Australia is more advanced than the US in Naval Living Conditions

Permission to shout bravo at an annoyingly loud volume!

PS I had a tour of our Freemantle class Patrol Boats. Apparently the washing
machines, which were designed to use sea water, never really worked so a
crewman gets saddled with laundromat duty when they pull into port, which is
only once every 6-8 weeks, and has to wash almost all the clothing of the
ship's company. They all wear these overall things and often for many days
at a time. As a civilian I often find it hard to comprehend the privations
these people have to deal with which is why it is easy for me to call them
sir or ma'am - cause they sure as hell have earned it. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <02042318594616.03729@avlendris>
References: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
 <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020423183217.00ac19d8@mail.earthlink.net>

At 06:59 PM 4/23/2002 +0100, Brian Caball wrote:
>On Tuesday 23 April 2002 17:04, William Lane wrote:
> > I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 (in fact
> > i try to pretend it never happened.)
>
>
>I think we all did that ;->

IMHO, there was precisely 1 good episode of Galactica 1980, "The Return of 
Starbuck".

Of course, IIRC it was actually an unfilmed Battlestar episode

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:41:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:41:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net>
References: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca> <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

>There are things for which it makes sense that they be state-run
>(e.g. power & water distribution, roads &c.) but not state-subsidised
>(i.e. you pay for what you burn/drink/whatever).=20

Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
bathing and sanitation...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:59:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:59:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231653550.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Stephen Tempest wrote:

> "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:
> 
> >There are things for which it makes sense that they be state-run
> >(e.g. power & water distribution, roads &c.) but not state-subsidised
> >(i.e. you pay for what you burn/drink/whatever). 
> 
> Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> bathing and sanitation...

You can lead a man to water, but can you make him bathe?

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:03:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:03:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>; from tml@stempest.demon.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000
References: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca> <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net> <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020423175758.A7026@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> 
> Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> bathing and sanitation...

That means you want the rest of the state to fund your desire to live
where it's expensive (those subsidies have to come from somewhere).
That's hardly a good thing.

Better to let living in the overcrowded city become as expensive as it
is, and then watch as people leave, thereby easing crowding.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Cloning forces us to ask some hard questions.  For example,
which person, the original or the clone, gets to wear the
goatee and be evil?                    --Stewart Nicholls

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:15:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:15:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423175758.A7026@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>

Robert A. Uhl writes:
> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > 
> > Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> > would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> > bathing and sanitation...
> 
> That means you want the rest of the state to fund your desire to live
> where it's expensive (those subsidies have to come from somewhere).

Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
being paid for by the occupants of the city.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:29:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:29:41 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8eb83b1f99b@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:49 AM -0700 4/23/02, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>This kind of economic system will ONLY work if no one has a "shit job".
>
>If I had my druthers I would spend every day writing.  I might or might
>not make any money on it, but that's what I'd do.  I do not work as a
>physicians' administrative assistant for the sheer pleasure of it.  It's
>annoying and boring much of the time, even though I believe in what we are
>doing here.

This is correct.

A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more people living on 
public assistance.  (It may not be 50%, but it will depend on what 
the level is set at).

What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a 
fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who 
think they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to 
complain that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and 
agitate for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact 
that lead to such a system in the first place, since the rationale 
that supports it can be easily used to support increases, and whether 
society wants to try and "buy" them off).

There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family 
(?).  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those 
who went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this 
is the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of 
"non-working" class in Europe....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <02042316460813.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020424002902.17680.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> wrote:
> Hey Guys
> 
> After a friend got the entirety of season 1
> Battlestar Galactica on video 
> (hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of
> the ship. The 'net seems 
> utterly void of technical specs or what have you:
> the best i've found was a 
> Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters). 
> 
> Anyone have any clue?
> 
> -Brian
> 
> 
  >>
  FOR SHAME!!!!

  BSG has a very strong 'cult' following online. try
these sites:

http://www.battlestargalactica.com/ This is Richard
Hatch/Capt Apollo's site. He's pretty much the leading
light of the effort to revive the series;

http://www.tecr.com/galactica/index.html This is the
BSG Tech Site; there are some oddities in his science,
but it's pretty good, all the same;

http://www.bsgtigger.com/stories/bsgfan.html
http://www.bsgtigger.com/stories/bsgcross.html
These two are strictly fanfic sites, aka, a
conglomeration of people who love the show, and love
to write.

It gets a little stronger every year, as more people
rediscover it, or find it for the first time.

ON RANT

And, yes, although most of the fans feel sorry for the
actors/writers, et al, from '1980', it is almost
universally despised and ignored. 

From the pilots' first airing, it stayed in the top 20
until it was canc'd.

I swear, network tv could never get it's act together.
When ABC canc'd BSG, they replaced it with 'Mork &
Mindy', which was doing pretty well at the time; not
even Robin Williams could save that time slot. 

1980 was aired 6 weeks after ABC called Glenn Larsen
into their offices and gave him the green light for a
new season...as long as it was ready in 6 weeks. 

Now, you know why '1980' sucked so bad.

OFF RANT

MACessna
  >>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:37:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:37:38 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <001001c1eb19$a772e880$0f01a8c0@terry>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204240954460.7432-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:

 Fantastic subject and at least IMTU it is not OT. As i incorporated much
from that show for MU. In fact the concept of a Battle Star flaoting
around popping in and out of jump space or seen as ships leave or enter.
Like a ghost ship. Has been a running part. My 3I has any site where
Colonial artifacts are found as a red zone.

 Oh yes i have an original Viper model and the rocket. Both in need of
repair. Bought the Galactica at a con a while back. Still in the box. Yeah
I even have a few hundred of the trading cards. Was/am a big fan of the
show. FWIW I talked to some members of the fan club right after they had
returned from the IIRC 15th anniversary con in Calif. They were at OryCon
tht year. Acording to what I was told. Glen doesn't like the 1980 either
and most fans disregard it as never happening. Best they will call it is
"Galacta-spit"

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:41:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:41:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost> <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:20:37 -0700 (PDT), Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
>great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
>money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
>putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
>retiring tomorrow.  While I don't know where all the
>money went, I know that much went to pork barrel, and
>some went to folks who never paid that much in.
>
><SNIP>

Actually, the Social Security fund was never intended to operate in
the manner you state.  Your "Instead" is, in fact, the way it was
intended to operate from the start.  If that hadn't been the case,
Social Security wouldn't have been able to start paying benefits at
its inception.

That original structure was founded on the idea that the pool of
wage-earning taxpayers would always exceed the pool of recipients.  As
the US went through the demographic surge known as the Baby Boom, the
pool of taxpayers expanded greatly while the pool of Social Security
retirees wasn't greatly increasing.

With that large surge of money going into the system, it represented
an irresistible opportunity to the politicians to expand the benefits,
which is exactly what they did (arguably, not too much of a pork
barrel).  Further, the US government also changed the law to allow use
of the Social Security surplus to pay for some of the Reagan deficits
(which, depending upon your viewpoint, might be where the bulk of the
pork might be found).

Now, as the members of the Baby Boom start approaching retirement,
there are fewer members of the pool of wage-earning taxpayers who are
paying to support a demographic bulge of retirees.  Had the government
instead simply banked the surplus at a modest interest rate, it would
not be seeing the oncoming retirement crisis (instead, we would have
had a different crisis some time ago).

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:53:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:53:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <20020424000942.7DBCE27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020424000942.7DBCE27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <27vbcu01a2v6aa5bssq5jr9je1trnjboi5@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:03:51 -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
wrote:

>Where on earth is it that people pay $400 USD for a palm pilot?  I don't
>have one, but I have never heard of anyone paying that much for one.

Except for the wireless-enabled Palms, they don't cost that much - but the
high-end Sony Cli (a licensed PalmOS box) does retail for that kind of
money.


--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:56:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:56:10 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>

From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au>

     "Australian DOD has always had onshore quarters for Naval personnel, or 
provided rent subsidies and the like to live in town (where appropriate).  
That's weird the US DOD does not..."


Mr. Hughes,

     The US DOD provides shore housing or rent subsidies for married naval 
personnel or those with children.  It's the single folk who get the sticky 
end.  In some low rent areas, single crew are able to club together and rent 
apartments or homes.  Alas, USS California's home port was NAS Alameda, 
smack dab in the middle of the SF Bay area.

     "Oh my god.  That means Australia is more advanced than the US in Naval 
Living Conditions.  Permission to shout bravo at an annoyingly loud volume!"

     Permission gladly granted!  Oz is more advanced than the World's 
Biggest Banana Republic in many areas, brewing comes first to mind.

     "...a crewman gets saddled with laundromat duty when they pull into 
port, which is only once every 6-8 weeks, and has to wash almost all the 
clothing of the ship's company. They all wear these overall things and often 
for many days at a time."

     Good grief!  Sounds as if those PBs could be detected by odor alone!  
The 42 young men in my berthing compartment had laundry done twice weekly.  
Three or four days worth of skivvies, socks, and dungarees can get rather 
"high".  Pa Whipsnade, a Korean police action vet, visited my berthing area 
once and described it succintly; "Feet and flatulence."  He professed to 
prefer any one of several foxholes he dug.

ObTrav - Why aren't stewards paid more?  Providing creature comforts for 
crew and passengers surely must be very important.  Good stewards control 
morale in the uniformed services and can lure paying high passengers to your 
nondescript Beowulf.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEODMAA.tml@downport.com>

Whether intentional or not, it still fits the textbook definition of a ponzi
scheme. And a bad idea from the start. The fact that it got bigger and
messier just follows as the night the day. Putting money away in
interest-bearing accounts would be even worse. The best thing we could do is
end the program, encourage retirement savings, roll the cost of phasing it
out into the general fund and be done with it. While we're at it, phase out
the rest of the federal retirement system and send it all private. At least
if the politicians and bureaucrats had their cookies in the jar with ours
they might be more apt to keep an eye on the Enrons and Arthur-Andersens out
there, instead of being in bed with them.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of JR Holmes
>
> Actually, the Social Security fund was never intended to operate in
> the manner you state.  Your "Instead" is, in fact, the way it was
> intended to operate from the start.  If that hadn't been the case,
> Social Security wouldn't have been able to start paying benefits at
> its inception.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700
References: <20020423175758.A7026@4dv.net> <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020423190732.A7743@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
> being paid for by the occupants of the city.

Then why subsidise?  You're forcing the well-off to pay for water and
electricity for the less well-off.  To an extent this may be
appropriate, but I wonder to what extent, exactly.  Anyone deserves
enough water for drinking to keep from dying and bathing to keep
leprosy at bay, but any more than that should be on a pay-as-you-go
basis.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and writing an exact
man.                                                            --Bacon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 12:39:15AM +0000
References: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423191108.B7743@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 12:39:15AM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> 
>      Permission gladly granted!  Oz is more advanced than the World's 
> Biggest Banana Republic in many areas, brewing comes first to mind.

?!?  Come visit Colorado sometime.  I'll take you on a tour of
breweries to make any man of refined taste want to move here.  And I
am given to understand that Oregon is our superior.

Whereas the Australian homebrewers I've encountered have uniformly
lamented the qulity of the local beer, and admitted that they--or at
least their countrymen--are most interested in brewing a high-proof
product.

> ObTrav - Why aren't stewards paid more?

Does the IN have stewards?  Ours got rid of them:-(

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There is no problem which cannot be solved by the judicious application
of firepower.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC6AF7A.14446.75EB6C@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 9:20, Paul Walker wrote:

> The welfare system should exist for two reasons,
> helping those who can't work to survive, and
> encouraging those who can work to do so. 
> Unfortunately, that is not what government officials
> use it for.  They use it as a kick-back for votes. (I
> do confess to a US-centric view of politics, but I
> would imagine it is similar.)

That doesn't seem to happen here, even tough beneficaries are a 
significant portion of the electorate. In fact the usual way of using 
them to get votes is to come up with a new way a shafting the 
unemployed without it looking like you are.

> Because the government will be likely to take more
> than they need.  Someone will present the idea that we
> can't lower the poverty level but we may not get
> enough taxes to pay next year, so we better take a
> little extra to ensure that we can pay the poverty
> level in the future.  Not to mention that we need to
> take in more taxes for our pork barrel.  
> 
> I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
> great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
> money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
> putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
> retiring tomorrow.  While I don't know where all the
> money went, I know that much went to pork barrel, and
> some went to folks who never paid that much in.

With that sort of thing it's no wonder your tax rates are highish, the 
US social spending is immense and yet in some ways there is less to 
show for it than here is in the UK, even though the US is much 
wealthier.
 
> Maybe I'm not making sense.  Suffice it to say, that I
> don't trust the government to make the right
> decisions, and the negative tax seems to put much
> trust in the government to make the right decisions.

As far as I can see it doesn't do anything that the current systems 
don't (both here and in the US) - it just does it in a more direct and 
traceable way.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:20:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:20:56 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

As an infantryman, I remember my first "short" field 
exercise, in which I didn't get a real bath or have clothes 
laundered for a mere 20 days (I've been without a bath or 
clothes washed in the field for as long as three months).

After I returned to the barracks (to "raise morale" the 
colonel had the idea that we would march back; I thought the 
real reason was to save fuel costs for the helicopters).  
This was only about 10 miles, but you work up a good sweat 
that acts like "gravy" on smelly clothes.

My roommate got back first (we were two men in a three-man 
room).  He had time to throw his stuff in the washers and get 
a shower before I got back.  He then stopped me at the 
door. "Take off your s__t out there, and then come in and get 
a shower.  You're not bringing that smelly s__t in here."

I had to run my clothes through the washer three times before 
the water would rinse clear - it was nearly solid black the 
first time around.  After I had taken my shower, the clothes 
smelled like a dead animal.  And the socks -- well, they had 
turned from issue green to black, with stuff growing on them.

After the three month stint with no bath, I just threw the 
uniforms away - the stench was incredible.

I've woken up frozen to the ground in the morning, and I've 
been hidden well enough that passing soldiers took a leak on 
me.  Twice.  (tip: never hide under the edge of bushes, 
because men feel compelled to piss there) 

Having to live with foot odor and flatulence doesn't sound so 
bad.

ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you 
can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes 
about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people 
in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek 
across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be 
more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a 
plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful 
smell to the unwashed.
________________
Employees smoking
Off company property
I'm doing their work

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:13:54PM -0400
References: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423192811.A8321@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:13:54PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> After the three month stint with no bath, I just threw the 
> uniforms away - the stench was incredible.

I wonder how much of that was a side-effect of the exertion you must
have udnergone.  I ask because as a Scout I and my brothers noted that
several camp staffers were rather proud of not showering all summer.
The pattern we detected was that for the first few days there was no
problem, then for the next several weeks they reeked to high heaven
and then they began to _lose_ the smell.  In fact, they began to smell
more like the environment than aught else.

But they _did_ launder their clothes.  So perhaps that makes a
difference.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
That's how you know you're hooked on something; when it makes you forget
to drink beer.                     --Paul Mather, commenting on The Sims

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>The pattern we detected was that for the first few days 
>there was no problem, then for the next several weeks they 
>reeked to high heaven and then they began to _lose_ the 
>smell.  In fact, they began to smell more like the 
>environment than aught else.
>

Well, until I washed when I got back, that was the case.  
After a few weeks, I couldn't smell myself, and I don't think 
that anyone could really smell me, unlike the people who 
smelled like soap.

I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago, 
and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how 
you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin 
gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.

________________
Employees smoking
Off company property
I'm doing their work

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:58:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:58:16 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:46:21PM -0400
References: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423195559.A9418@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:46:21PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> Well, until I washed when I got back, that was the case.  
> After a few weeks, I couldn't smell myself, and I don't think 
> that anyone could really smell me, unlike the people who 
> smelled like soap.

I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head hurts:-(

> I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago, 
> and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how 
> you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin 
> gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.

Interesting.  I don't think I'm ever going to get a chance to test any
of this out, though...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I once successfully declined a departmental retreat, saying that on that
day I planned instead to advance.                    --Alan J. Rosenthal

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <00cf01c1eb16$c0dab0d0$a3e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8EB60FE.39D2%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

And I'm also a  full time idiot - sorry about that post everybody.

Joe Webb 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head 
>hurts:-(
>
After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless 
they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which 
case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.

My roommate could smell me when I came back, after he had 
bathed.  

In the field after a few weeks, I could smell bathed people 
at a considerable distance if they were upwind of me.  But it 
didn't work the other way for them (if I was upwind of them).
________________
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:14:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:14:28 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
References: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV32IKcQEF2a9jE11o0001c2c0@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon wrote,

>I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago,
and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how
you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin
gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.<

That is one of my favorite movie lines.
As you note, he was joking. He was asked why he didn't bathe. His response
was that body oils, combined with sweat and dirt formed a natural barrier to
water. (He was dirty because he didn't bathe, he didn't bathe because he was
going to get dirty in a trench anyway.)
Later in the movie when they come upon a group of female Soviet soldiers, he
climbs into a hot tub with one of them fully clothed.

A really fun movie.
:)


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:18:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:18:32 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <B8EB60FE.39D2%jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B8EB62AD.39D7%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

on 4/23/02 7:05 PM, Joe Webb at jwwebb@earthlink.net wrote:

> And I'm also a  full time idiot - sorry about that post everybody.
> 
> Joe Webb 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

OK, idiot that is too fast on the draw - the original post that shouldn't
have gone was bounced.

So return to your home folks, nothing to see here (unless you count somebody
slinking under a rock a sight to see).

Joe Webb


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/23/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you
> can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes
> about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people
> in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek
> across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be
> more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a
> plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful
> smell to the unwashed.

An excellent point.  Which is why some hunters use MOPP gear to hide their
own scent.  I was always partial to Shaklee's Basic-H.  One of those
biodegradable soaps that proto-enviornmentalists (like my parents) used in
the late '70.  I don't even know if it's made anymore.  But it had no scent.
I carefully hoarded my supply for years.

(A quick search of the web shows it's still out there, though it looks
different).

I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

I've never had anyone pee on me, but I have had an unhappy policeman step
close enough to me that I could plainly make out the stitching on his Corfam
shoe in the middle of the night.  Camouflage does work.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:43:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:43:16 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8EB6984.582B5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/23/02 7:07 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> "Robert A. Uhl" says
>> 
>> I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head
>> hurts:-(
>> 
> After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless
> they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which
> case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.
> 
> My roommate could smell me when I came back, after he had
> bathed.  
> 
> In the field after a few weeks, I could smell bathed people
> at a considerable distance if they were upwind of me.  But it
> didn't work the other way for them (if I was upwind of them).

The amazing power of the nose.  After a while, it doesn't smell the stinks
it's around, but can easily detect new smells.  Quite an engineering marvel.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Combined Gurps/Megatraveller Year 1116(Long)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F110VniSnRMWuL0000016a@hotmail.com>

For your reading pleasure, I've combined the timelines from Gurps Traveller 
& Megatraveller. This is for the Year 1116, with the rest of the years 
following shortly.

Graham

========================================================================
GURPS TRAVELLER / MEGATRAVELLER TIMELINE COMPARISON.

Year: 1116

Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                           131-1116	(GURPS)
FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH

Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian was killed today when his personal gig was 
destroyed in a massive explosion of unknown origin. The gig was inbound to 
the palace from Dulinor's flagship, the cruiser Sargon, when it failed to 
change course in response to traffic control instructions, and then vanished 
in a massive fireball while in deep space.

Craft were immediately dispatched from Sargon to search for survivors, and 
were soon joined by vessels of the Imperial Navy. Search and rescue 
operations continue, but searchers acknowledge that the extremely violent 
nature of the explosion make th e possibility of any survivors increasingly 
small.

The archduke was en route to an audience with the Emperor, the subject of 
which was not available at press time. Emperor Strephon has ordered the 
Imperial Navy to take charge of a full investigation of the explosion in 
cooperation with other authorities, and has ordered Sargon and her crew into 
quarantine at the Imperial Naval base at Capital for the duration of the 
investigation. Naval vessels are in the process of tracking down any and all 
vessels that were in the area and have ordered tapes of all communications 
to and from the gig subjected to the most rigorous analysis.

The Emperor expressed his deep sadness at the news, and has sent a formal 
proclamation of his condolences to the people of the Domain of Ilelish and a 
private letter to Dulinor's wife and daughter. Funeral arrangements for the 
Archduke have not been announced.

Also killed in the blast were the Archduke's Naval aide Volante Imprey, the 
crew of the gig, and a number of other individuals. A full list of victims 
is not available at this time.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                           132-1116	(GURPS)

In a tersely-worded press release issued today, General Mueni Arap Rutan, 
commanding officer of the Imperial Guard, announced that Colonel Hiroshi 
Enera, commander of the Ilelish Regiment of the Imperial Guard, and three 
other officers of the same regimen t have submitted their resignations to 
the Emperor, effective immediately.

None of the officers could be reached for comment, and General Rutan refused 
to comment further except to say that the officers involved had all cited 
personal reasons for their resignations.

The Ilelish Regiment was serving its normal month-long period as honor 
guards in the Imperial palace when the resignations occurred, and continues 
to serve in that position. No replacements have been appointed to the 
vacancies thus created - the regiment is currently the personal command of 
General Rutan. A political motivation for the resignations is suspected, but 
no comments from anyone involved have been forthcoming.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 132-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Emperor Strephon Aella Alkhalikoi was assassinated at 1517 hours local time, 
132-1116, in the Grand Reception Hall of the Imperial Palace above 
Capital/Core. In the ensuing firefight, the Empress Iolanthe and the Grand 
Princess Iphegenia were also killed, along with the Aslan Yerlyaruiwo 
ambassador, twelve Imperial Guards, and a number of bystanders.

In the following minutes, Archduke Dulinor of Ilelish appeared before the 
cameras of the Reception Hall, claimed the crown of the Emperor by the right 
of assassination, and scattered holocrystals documenting his claim to the 
surviving crowd. He ascended the steps of the dais and sat on the iridium 
Throne briefly before leaving in the company of his bodyguard.

System Control Central reported tracking the Archduke's cruiser leaving the 
Capital system minutes later. Fleet elements are reported in pursuit.

Capital has been placed under martial law. Off-planet transportation has 
been suspended temporarily. Naval headquarters has issued a statement that 
the situation is stable and under control. Rioting is reported in the city.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 133-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The Imperial Palace above Capital has been sealed by Naval Security troops. 
Dulinor is rumored to remain concealed in the palace with a company of 
bodyguards. It remains unclear whether Dulinor fled the Capital system 
yesterday aboard his cruiser, or if he remains in the Palace. Occasional 
plasma flashes have been reported along the Grand Concourse.

Imperial officers at the scene refused comment.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 134-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Captain Sir Gerals Spirlandin, commanding the Honor Company of the 2nd 
Imperial Marine regiment, denied reports that Duke Varian, Strephon's nephew 
and heir apparent to the Iridium Throne, was killed in skirmishes within the 
Imperial Palace yesterday.

Spirlandin, 32, of Ibaru/Zarushagar, said, "The situation is under control, 
but identities of persons in the Palace remain unconfirmed."

News Service personnel have not yet been allowed inside the Palace.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 135-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Preparations for Emperor Strephon's funeral tomorrow continued without 
incident. Empress Iolanthe will be buried at the same time. Grand Princess 
Iphegenia will be buried Thirday.

The Admiralty confirmed today that the Imperial Palace has been cleared of 
disloyal elements. The apartments accorded Dulinor in the Palace have been 
retaken, with no sign of the Archduke.

The body of Prince Varian, until today heir apparent to the Iridium Throne, 
was recovered from the Imperial Palace this afternoon, and now lies in state 
alongside the Emperor in the central Hall of Nobles beneath the Moot Spire. 
Varian's funeral is scheduled for Thirday.

Crowds of mourners continue to file through the Hall of Nobles. Responding 
to the press of crowds, last minute arrangements have been made to keep the 
hall open through the night.

The Office of the Mint has suspended production of the cr1 coin pending 
coronation of the next Emperor. A generic sunburst design has been adopted 
as a temporary replacement.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 136-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Emperor Strephon and Empress Iolanthe were buried today with full state 
honors. The procession from the Hall of Nobles to the Alkhalikhoi section of 
the Imperial Park in the shadow of the Palace moved slowly and without 
incident.

Prince Lucan, Varian's younger brother, and now heir apparent to the throne, 
appeared briefly at grave side, leaving under heavy security immediately 
after the ceremony.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 137-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Following simple burial ceremonies for Grand Princess Iphegenia and Prince 
Varian, the Office of the Emperor today announced that Prince Lucan had 
formally ascended the Iridium Throne in private ceremonies in the Imperial 
Palace.

Shortly thereafter, Duke Simalr of Ushra, speaking for the Moot, charged 
that private ascension ceremonies are invalid, adding that any assumption of 
the powers of the Imperium requires the consent of the Moot.

Emperor Lucan, communicating through his seneschal, exercised the Imperial 
power to dissolve the Moot for one year. Duke Simalr of Ushra, speaking for 
the Moot, denied the legitimacy of Lucan's action in a strongly worded reply 
which was released simultaneously to the news services.

A meeting of the Moot later in the day failed to achieve a quorum. Duke 
Simalr is reported under house arrest.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                           137-1116	(GURPS)

Informed sources at the palace say that Emperor Strephon will appoint two 
new Archdukes in the coming year: Lady Isis Arepo Ilethian will be appointed 
archduchess of Ilelish, succeeding her father, the late Archduke Dulinor. 
Duke Norris Aella Alledon will be appointed the first Archduke of Deneb.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                         137-1116	(GURPS)

Prince Varian Paulo Alkhalikoi, nephew of the Emperor Strephon, announced 
today that he has decided to leave Capital on an extended vacation from the 
Imperial court.

"Life at the Imperial Court is a wondrous experience," said the prince, 
"however, I feel that I am missing an even more wondrous and varied 
experience to be had by getting away from the pressures of the palace and 
seeing more of the various societies and cultures that make up the Imperium. 
I hope to spend some time getting to know a few of the 11,000 worlds a 
little better." Varian announced no itinerary, but said he plans to try to 
travel incognito to the greatest extent possible.

The Emperor has not commented officially on his nephew's announcement, but 
indicated privately that he feels that travel cannot but help to improve 
anyone's character. Varian's brother Lucan has chosen to remain at court, 
and refused to comment on his brother's announcement, other than to wish him 
a safe journey.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                         140-1116	(GURPS)

In separate proclamations issued today, the Emperor appointed Lady Isis 
Arepo Ilethian of Dlan as Archduchess of Ilelish, and Duke Norris Aella 
Alledon of Regina as Archduke of Deneb. Formal investiture will take place 
at the palace on 001-1117. Both candidates will be present, and the Emperor 
will personally invest them with the regalia of their office, an unusual 
occurrence in view of the vast distances involved. Special task forces of 
the Imperial Navy have been dispatched to Dlan and Regina to escort the 
candidates to Capital.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                         145-1116	(GURPS)

Admiral Jori Mallory hault-Viswanath of the Imperial Navy's public relations 
branch announced today that the Navy was pursuing a number of lines of 
investigation into the explosion that killed Archduke Dulinor Astrin 
Ilethian fourteen days ago. "In cooperation with other agencies, we are 
concentrating massive resources on the investigation of the incident. We 
have recovered fragments amounting to over three-quarters of the gig (the 
largest massing over 8500 kilos, the smallest less than 200 grams) and are 
subjecting them to the most rigorous possible forensic examination. The 
gig's maintenance records have been fully examined, and every member of the 
crew of Dulinor's flagship Sargon has been interrogated. We have tracked 
down every craft that was in the near vicinity for twelve hours before and 
after the explosion. We are still not certain whether we are investigating 
an act of terrorism, a multiple homicide, or a freak accident."

Asked about the possibility that the explosion was an assassination, Admiral 
hault-Viswanath remarked that while that possibility cannot be eliminated, 
there is no direct evidence of any assassination plot. "That is one of 
several lines of investigation being actively pursued." he said, "We have 
orders from the highest level to investigate every possibility, no matter 
how remote."

Asked if remains of any of the victims of the massive explosion had been 
recovered, Admiral hault-Viswanath stated that while fragmentary remains had 
been found, none had been positively identified as those of the Archduke. 
Asked if this was unusual, other sources responded that in explosions of 
this size and power, it is unusual to find any remains at all, let alone 
anything substantial.



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               152-1116	(GURPS)

The monthly changing of the guard at the Imperial Palace took place today, 
but palace watchers say the ceremony is a little late. Imperial guard 
uniforms all look pretty much alike, especially to those unfamiliar with 
them, but a local military enthusiast whose hobby is Imperial uniforms says 
the differences are like night and day, and to her trained eyes, the Antares 
guard has been on duty for almost three weeks.

"It is fairly easy to pick out the Aslan, " says Minaro hault-Yunami, author 
of Uniforms and Equipment of the Imperial Guard, 1080-1110, " and the 
Marines are in maroon, so they stick out too. But the difference between 
Antares and Illelish is in certain details of the collar tabs and shoulder 
boards, which are pretty hard to pick out on the video screen." How does 
Minaro, who has access only to the same videos of the court as the rest of 
us ordinary citizens, know the difference?

"Every day when the Emperor enters the Long Hall on his way to the Iridium 
throne, he is preceded by an honor party of the guard. On the first day of 
the week, the honor party always wears battle dress instead of the normal 
full dress uniform. The Illelish Guard's battle dress has a black stripe 
outlining their right plastron - the Antares Guard is blank. It's a subtle 
difference, but it's there for anyone with halfway decent eyes."

What does it all mean? "It's a speculation, but I think the Ilelish Guard 
were pulled from duty so they could mourn their Archduke. It's highly 
unusual, but it's not completely unknown. The last time something like this 
happened was in the reign of Arbellatra in 632."


Jewell/Spinward Marches (1106-A777999-C)                  158-1116	(GURPS)

After months of investigation, the Office of the Judge Advocate General for 
the Imperial Navy has dismissed charges of war profiteering brought against 
Gishan Ryan Khaasira. A spokesperson for the JAG Office stated that "we have 
found no evidence to support the accusations made by certain individuals 
concerning the activities of former Lt. Khaasira during the Fifth Frontier 
War. As such, our investigation has ended and we consider the matter 
closed."

Gishan Khaasira is a former Naval intelligence officer who transferred to 
Supply after the ship on which he served, the Agidda, suffered heavy damage 
from a Zhodani attack. Khaasira then spent the remainder of the war working 
as an aide to the Quartermaster-General, Admiral Rafael Sukhamaran. It is 
because of the mysterious disappearance of several shipments of supplies 
during his tenure there that unnamed sources pointed the finger at him.

While the JAG Office has now officially cleared Lt. Khaasira of all 
wrongdoing, he has elected to resign his commission from the Navy. Khaasira 
cited the deaths of his sister during the war and of his father recently as 
the reasons for his resignation. He intends to return home and use his 
skills to rebuild his family's merchant business after years of hard times.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 200-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Unrest among the populace continues following the assassination of Strephon 
and the questionable rise to power of Emperor Lucan. Fanned by opponents 
such as Duke Simalr of Ushra, the flames of unrest have sparked rioting in 
major population centers and intense quarreling among members of the Moot.

Police and Imperial Guard troops have kept these isolated outbreaks under 
control, but their frequency and intensity are on the rise.


Vland/Vland (0307-A967A9A-F) Date: 202-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Emperor Strephon was assassinated by Archduke Dulinor of Ilelish 132-1116. 
The Central Authority issued a simple statement early today regretting the 
Emperor's death, but calling on all citizens to remain calm and remember his 
passing with dignity.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               212-1116	(GURPS)

In-system space ship traffic was snarled today when the arrival of an 
unexpected Naval courier vessel was vectored to Capital ahead of all other 
incoming vessels, causing considerable dislocation in orbital traffic 
control.

A spokesman for System Port Authority refused comment other than to state 
that the vessel had the highest military priority, and its commander 
insisted on being cleared for approach immediately. TNS reporters managed to 
locate the shift supervisor at Capi tal Far Orbit Control, who was somewhat 
more talkative on receiving assurances of anonymity.

"The transponder indicated that it was an Imperial Navy vessel," the 
supervisor said, but when the neutrino signature analysis came through, I 
recognized it as an Imperiallines TI-class. Now, a Tango Ida with a Navy 
squawker, is a little unusual. I've wor ked this duty eight years, and I've 
only seen that twice...we have a lot of TI-class ships in and out of system, 
but normally they have civilian transponders. This one demanded clearance 
straight through to the Naval Base, and we had to give it to them on account 
of the transponder priority code, even though it meant I had to spend the 
next three hours unsnarling everything." When asked what he thought it all 
meant, the supervisor winked at this reporter, and said: "Somebody had 
something they wanted to g et dirtside real fast, and they couldn't wait for 
the Xboat. Maybe Prince Lucan ordered some extra Tokay escenzia for one of 
his little parties."



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               215-1116	(GURPS)

Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian will be honored at a memorial service to be 
held in the Hall of Nobles beneath the Moot Spire on 230-1116. Because 
Dulinor's body has still not been found, mourners may view a holographic 
representaion of the Archduke, whi ch will lie in state in the Hall for 10 
days prior to the ceremony.

Emperor Strephon will deliver the main eulogy. The memorial service itself 
will incorporate aspects of the Dlani Virasan religion, but will not be a 
Virasan funeral service, as that will be held on Dlan, Dulinor's homeworld. 
Although not a follower of the Virasan faith, Dulinor was said to be deeply 
interested in its tenets, which state (among other things) that true 
believers must die a non-violent death on Dlan to attain true enlightenment.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 217-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

In the shadows of the Imperial Palace, a particularly violent clash between 
police and rioters has rocked the capital. For nearly three hours the 
skirmishes continued, as demonstrating citizens forced their way toward the 
palace against strict orders of the authorities.

Nonlethal means were finally used to disperse the crowd, but not until forty 
citizens and at least three riot policemen were killed.

A spokesman for Emperor Lucan has stated that the Emperor, though aware of 
the problem, was not concerned and did not at any time leave the palace for 
his own safety.



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               230-1116	(GURPS)

A memorial service for Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian was held in the Hall 
of Nobles beneath the Moot Spire today. Emperor Strephon, his wife Iolanthe, 
his daughter Grand Princess Ciencia Iphegenia, and the emperor's nephew 
Prince Lucan were present. The Emperor delivered the eulogy, of which the 
following are selected excerpts:

Dulinor was my friend. And Dulinor was a madman.

Harsh words? No. Rather, a tribute.

Great spirits are not normal, they are abnormal. In their ceaseless questing 
for a world which has not yet been but which they seek to bring about they 
show their alienation from the world around them. These aliens are those 
whom we call leaders, visionar ies, prophets, poets, artists - madmen. 
Dulinor was one of them, and he stood at their head.

What does it take to see the universe as it is and say it is not enough? To 
say that it can be another way that it has never been before? These are not 
the thoughts of a contented man, one who is well-adjusted to the world as he 
finds it. Well-adjusted is a compliment we throw around easily, but it is 
not a compliment that applies to a leader. Because leaders are never 
well-adjusted; they are always discontent, they always seek a universe that 
does not exist, and they strive to make that universe a reality. This 
striving is the opposite of being well-adjusted, it is madness.

In all the years I knew him, Dulinor never ceased striving, and I loved him 
for it.

Talent, we are reminded by the ancient philosopher, is the capacity for 
opposites. If so, then Dulinor was perhaps the most talented of us all. 
Cloaked in contradictions, like the black garb he wore, imposed upon him by 
a faith he did not embrace, he serv ed and defied, agreed and challenged. He 
was unpopular, and indispensable. He went to his death believing in the 
course of his life, and not caring if others understood. His life and death 
are perhaps a warning to those of talent who would follow after him, that 
the candle that burns brightest burns briefest. Let all talented madmen 
remember that the life of service comes at great cost, but let them never 
shrink from it.

Dulinor died in the blackness that he wore in life, and as in that life, 
never being fully of it, but also not rejecting it.

We will not see his like again.

Roget/Spinward Marches                  231-1116	(GURPS)

Mercenary and former member of an elite Darrian unit Htarlehtoir was today 
invested as ko (clan chief) of the Feiftiusaea Clan, one of four which 
jointly control Roget.

This is an unusual clan in that it has both Aslan and human prides; 
Htarlehtoir is the first human to act as ko for any of the four clans.


Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G)                  244-1116	(GURPS)

Sector Admiral Hutara Astrin Ilethian, brother of the late Archduke Dulinor 
of Ilelish, has announced that he is resigning his commission, effective 
immediately. In a short press release read by the admiral's newly-appointed 
aide, Lieutenant Tadashi Conacht hault-Musillo, the admiral stated that he 
is resigning in order to devote his full attention to the management of the 
family lands and business interests now that his niece has been appointed 
Archduchess in her father's place.

The admiral stated that his niece would now be busy with government duties, 
and would no longer be able to devote the time necessary to keep the various 
Ilethian family interests running properly.

Asked why the admiral had not made the announcement himself, the lieutenant 
stated that the admiral has been ill the last few days, and while he was 
well on his way to recovery, his doctors felt the added strain of a public 
appearance might delay his recovery.


Sacnoth/Spinward Marches                  244-1116	(GURPS)

The University of Sacnoth today launched an appeal for funds to purchase 
rare Aslan artifacts. Professor Elke Ragnarsdottir, leading the appeal, 
said: "Unfortunately, neither the University nor the government are willing 
to provide funding, so we must appeal directly to the public."

She continued, "These pieces are important because they may prove that Aslan 
ranged as far coreward as Mithril, centuries before they were thought to 
have reached the Marches. This is a golden opportunity to learn more about 
them, but they need to be studied scientifically, and the best chance of 
that is for the University to acquire them."

The artifacts were found on Mithril in 1106, and have since been in the 
hands of a private collector, who is now selling them to raise money for 
other projects.

Other bidders are likely to include the Darrian government and Aslan 
traders. The Darrian Embassy declined to comment on why their government 
might want to buy the pieces.

If she fails to acquire the pieces, Professor Ragnarsdottir plans to use 
whatever money is raised to mount an expedition to Mithril in the hopes of 
discovering more items at the original site.

Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G) Date: 245-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The Archduke's official state visit to Capital ended abruptly with his 
surprise return to Dlan and his immediate call for a full-media press 
conference on the steps of the palace for later in the day.

After appearing wearing an elaborately fashioned crown, the Archduke began 
his statement with a list of wrongs and abuses perpetrated by Emperor 
Strephon. He concluded with the startling statement: "The Emperor is dead! I 
have dedicated my life to the people of the Imperium. I claim the Iridium 
Throne by right of assassination, and shall rule this Imperium as Emperor 
Dulinor."

The stunned public then listened as the Emperor called for a complete 
mobilization to seize all of the Imperium for his sacred cause. He made a 
public and official request to Admiral Hutara, his brother, for the Ilelish 
Fleet to side with him in his sacred struggle to gain his rightfully secured 
place on the throne.

The Emperor Dulinor retired to his chamber without answering questions. A 
subsequent statement detailing the new Emperor's trip to Capital and the 
assassination of Strephon on the Iridium Throne itself. The statement 
concluded with an account of Dulinor's ascension of the Throne to the well- 
wishing cheers of millions of Capital's citizenry, followed by a selection 
of patriotic video cassettes.

Celebrations have been organized on Dlan and throughout the sector as the 
populace is encouraged to honor the beginning of new age for the Imperium 
and Ilelish sector.


Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G)                  245-1116	(GURPS)

Puzzled citizens of Dlan who wondered why every entertainment channel was 
airing re-runs during prime-time last night now have an answer. An unknown 
agency reserved two hours of air time last night and cancelled a week or so 
ago, without telling anyone what the reservation was for.

The Dlan Minister of Communication's office had no formal comment, but a 
high official in that office stated "Somebody's out several mega-credits. 
They reserved the time almost a year ago, and paid by a bank draft from a 
numbered account, then last wee k we got a message that cancelled the 
reservation and told us to run whatever we wanted. It was too late to try to 
sell the time elsewhere, of course, so we let individual regional managers 
decide."

Speculation is rampant in the local entertainment industry, and guesses 
range from a new holofilm technique that didn't pan out to a massive (and 
very costly) practical joke. One rumor was a news flash of great importance, 
but no one can agree on what that might have been.

Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G) Date: 248-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Sector Admiral Hutara and his fleet officers made an official announcement 
that the Ilelish Fleet has declared for Dulinor. In a brief but ancient 
ceremony, Hutara offered his dagger to Dulinor, who solemnly accepted, and 
then briefly embraced his brother.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  262-1116	(GURPS)

After months of intensive investigation, the Imperial board of inquiry into 
the explosion of Archduke Dulinor's personal gig on 131-1116 is unable to 
physically confirm that Dulinor died in the explosion, or that he was even 
aboard the gig when it was destroyed. Officially, he is still listed as 
"missing, presumed dead." They have been able to confirm that the explosion 
was no accident. So far, this has been their only conclusion.

"We have testimony from Sargon's crew that the archduke and his staff 
boarded the gig," said an unnamed source close to the investigation, "but we 
haven't been able to find a trace of remains - well, not his remains, 
anyway." According to testim ony of several of the crew, Dulinor's flagship, 
the cruiser Sargon, launched the gig with the normal crew of two plus a port 
guide from customs, Archduke Dulinor and fourteen members of his personal 
staff, and three bodyguards plus assorted baggage for the party. The 
explosion was so powerful that not a single complete body has been 
recovered, although DNA and other evidence has accounted for sixteen of the 
nineteen passengers.

"The pattern of the wreckage indicated three separate, simultaneous 
explosions, calculated to pulverize the entire passenger compartment," the 
unnamed source continued. "The explosions all originated in the compartments 
where baggage would ordinarily b e stored." Dulinor's own standing orders, 
however, provide for constant supervision of the loading process by his 
bodyguards, and further require that the security staff who guard and 
oversee loading of the gig must accompany it when it departs. If these 
requirements were followed, it would seem that at least one of the 
perpetrators was killed along with the intended victim.

The unnamed source emphasized that investigators are still not convinced 
that Dulinor was the target of the explosion, although "At this point . . . 
that's the way to bet."



Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G)                  265-1116	(GURPS)

What started as a minor protest rally at the government center on Dlan 
escalated into a major civil confrontation between police and local 
citizens. A large crowd protesting what they called the Imperial Navy's 
cover-up of events surrounding Archduke Dulinor's death assembled without a 
permit and became hostile when ordered to disperse.

More than 600 rioters ransacked offices of the Imperial Navy, the Imperial 
Interstellar Scout Service and the Office of Calendar Compliance, all 
located in the downtown Imperial office building. Local police and 
constabulary forces dispersed the crowds within a few minutes, using 
non-lethal crowd-control devices. Sixteen people, none of them police, were 
treated and released at local medical centers.

The destruction apparently was haphazard. The Naval office, which suffered 
the heaviest damage, was primarily a public-relations and recruiting center. 
At the time of the riots, only civilian employees were present.


Amdani/Daibei (2034-A727A88-E) Date: 265-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Heightened high-level conferences and military activity in the area have 
done nothing to quell rumors that Core sector is in civil unrest. Statements 
from the nobility have been universally, "No comment."

As of this date, all naval personnel have been put on special alert, all 
shore leaves have been canceled, and a complete media blackout of naval 
exercises has been imposed. The Admiralty has no comment.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  270-1116	(GURPS)

Prince Lucan Alkhalikoi, nephew of the Emperor Strephon, announced today 
that he will imitate his brother Varian and take an extended tour of the 
Imperium.

"My brother and I often discussed taking a grand tour of the Imperium 
together," said the prince, "but we could never agree on the specifics, and 
when he departed earlier this year on his own, I felt compelled to remain at 
Capital for personal reasons. I have recently decided however, that I, too, 
must become more familiar with the Imperium, although I intend to do it in a 
different way than my brother."

Prince Lucan went on to say that he has not yet completed plans for his 
trip, and that his itinerary remains open. He did confirm that he will delay 
his departure until after the archducal investiture ceremony on 000-1117, so 
that he may attend on beha lf of his branch of the Imperial family.

The Emperor had no official comment on his nephew's decision, but sources at 
the palace indicate he approves.




Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  282-1116	(GURPS)

Commo Tech First Class Gani Riisha is having trouble getting his possessions 
back from the Imperial Navy. Gani Riisha was one of the crewmembers of 
Archduke Dulinor's flagship Sargon, and his possessions are, for some 
reason, relevant to the invest igation into the explosion that killed the 
Archduke and several others on 131-1116.

"They questioned me quite intensively," Riisha said, "because I was on duty 
on the bridge when the gig blew up. I expected them to want my signal logs 
and everything official, but why do they need my uniforms and my personal 
kit? They released me from cus tody after a few days, and they've been very 
generous in supplying me with replacement clothing and such, but there are a 
number of items of a personal nature I'd like to get back. They can't even 
tell me when I can expect to see them."

Gani is not alone. While most of Sargon's crew members (and their 
possessions) have been released from custody, the Imperial Navy still 
retains the flagship itself, some of the crew's personal gear, and three 
members of the crew itself under tight security.

The Imperial Navy Public Relations Office refuses to comment, other than to 
say that the personnel and items are necessary to the ongoing investigation, 
and that the crewmembers are not suspects at this time.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  289-1116	(GURPS)

The Imperial Navy has released several transcripts relating to the death of 
Archduke Dulinor in an explosion on 131-1116. The transcripts describe 
communications between the gig and inner-system traffic control, but also 
include selections from the gig 's flight-data recorder.

The gig's last response to traffic control was at 13:22:34-131-1116, when 
the gig's pilot acknowledged and carried out an instruction to alter course. 
A short time later (13:39:48-131-1116), traffic control issued a course 
correction instruction, but the gig did not acknowledge. The gig's 
navigational transponder ceased broadcasting at 13:41:06-131-1116, which is 
within seconds of the time the gig's flight-data recorder lost contact with 
all instruments, and approximately the time several other ships in the area 
reported a bright flash from the gig's coordinates.

All in all, the data released confirms the Navy's contention that several 
near simultaneous explosions destroyed the gig, killing all aboard 
instantly. When asked about the gig's cockpit voice recorder, Navy spokesmen 
responded that the instrument was severely damaged in the blast, and that it 
was still undergoing reconstructive analysis.



Quiru/Lunion (2321)                  289-1116	(GURPS)

The gas-giant planet Plistii, in the Lunion subsector of the Spinward 
Marches, underwent a violent shudder beginning on 341-1115, causing some 
small concern for the inhabitants of Quiru, one of Plistii's satellites 
(Quiru/Lunion 2321). A panic among the world's 3,200 citizens was averted by 
quick-thinking MainLines Shipping officials, who were able to gain a few 
hours advance notice of the disturbance and stage an evacuation drill while 
the event took place.

"We got everybody in one place, within sight of the emergency evacuation 
vessels, and then told them what was going on," said a company spokesman. 
"We gave everybody the day off with pay, and started playing dance music and 
serving food. It turned into a holiday, and had things turned sour w e could 
have had everybody on the evac ships and out of there in a couple of hours."

Details are still sparse, but the event appears to have been either a 
massive storm front in the gas giant, or else some kind of "gasquake" deep 
in the giant's liquid-hydrogen core. Company officials are monitoring the 
gas giant for further events, but so far nothing other than a few minor 
aftershocks has been detected.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  292-1116	(GURPS)

TNS sources learned today that Imperial Navy intelligence operatives may 
have foiled a plot to assassinate Lady Isis Arepo Illethian. Confidential 
sources suggest that a series of arrests on Capital and elsewhere in the 
sector were a result of a long-term undercover operation combating terrorist 
activity in Core sector. According to the sources, the purpose of the 
assassination was to galvanize anti-Imperial feelings in the Domain of 
Ilelish and spark a revolt there by blaming the assassination on Emperor 
Strephon.

A spokesman for the Imperial Navy refused to comment on TNS reports about a 
plot, and would neither confirm nor deny the existence of any undercover 
operations in Core sector or elsewhere. The spokesman did state that both 
Lady Isis and Archduke Norris were traveling to Capital under a Naval 
escort, and that their precise schedules and itineraries were classified.


Amdani/Daibei (2034-A727A88-E) Date: 309-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Official announcement of Emperor Strephon's assassination has reached the 
sector. The nobility has also released a statement encouraging the populace 
to have faith in the systematic and peaceful shift of power to Strephon's 
heir, Duke Varian.

Subsequent messages from Core sector have indicated that Varian was killed 
in combat in and around the palace area. Prince Lucan is apparently the new 
Emperor of the Imperium.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 310-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Lucan announced that unrest in Core sector has been dealt with successfully. 
All citizens are encouraged to have faith in the new Emperor, despite 
unsubstantiated rival claims to the throne.

Emperor Lucan also announced that the Core Fleet is on the move towards Dlan 
to hunt down the criminal Dulinor. His actions warrant death, and he will 
certainly be brought to justice.


Terra/Solomani Rim (0207-A867A69-F) Date: 313-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

In an unexpected move, much of the Imperial Rim Fleet has been concentrated 
and many reservists have been placed on alert. No substantial explanation 
has been forthcoming.

General Yoshtiru of the Terran Home Guard has called for a high level 
command conference of the commanders of all troops stationed on Terra.


Terra/Solomani Rim (0207-A867A69-F) Date: 322-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Military installations in Asia, Africa, and North America have been closed 
to civilians. All active duty personnel worldwide have been recalled from 
leave or furlough.

An unofficial source stated that large shipments of materials have been 
arriving at these closed installations. The exact nature of the shipments is 
unknown, and no official Home Guard spokesman will comment on the issue.


Rhylanor/Spinward Marches                   324-1116	(GURPS)

Subsector law enforcement agencies and the general public were today warned 
by the Imperial Navy to be on the lookout for Miguel Casimir, also known as 
Casimir Clarke or Miguel Clarke, who is wanted for a variety of crimes 
including impersonating an Imperial officer, theft of Imperial property, 
piracy and murder.

Commander Miles Cullan of the Imperial Navy said, "Casimir -- or whatever 
name he is now using -- recently escaped from a maximum security prison at a 
classified location, killing two guards in the process. We believe that he 
will attempt to dupe loyal ci tizens into hiding him by claiming to be the 
victim of a government cover-up. Do not be deceived, this man is a vicious 
animal. "

Commander Cullan explained that because of the charges of piracy, the Navy 
has been asked to lead the investigation. He went on to say that the 
fugitive has escaped before, and on that occasion claimed to be a member of 
an Imperial Research Station, and t hat Imperial and megacorporate interests 
were pursuing him to suppress a radical new power generation technology he 
had developed after examination of Ancient artifacts. "Casimir may use this 
story again," said Cullan, "and let's be completely clear: There is 
absolutely no truth in it."

Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 330-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The ducal household announced that Duke Norris of Regina will travel to 
Rhylanor to meet with representatives from several key worlds in the 
Spinward Marches and Deneb sectors. The conference is scheduled to cover 
"economic matters", a general term used when the agenda has not been made 
public. The exact nature of the meeting has not been disclosed.

In related matters, a rumor that the Duke has recently received a private 
communication from Emperor Strephon has not been confirmed by official 
sources.


Romarr/Spinward Marches                   331-1116		(GURPS)

The ruling council of Romarr today authorized Spinward Spice & Spirits, LIC, 
to export 250 tons of dust-spice without paying the normal duties and 
tariffs.

This measure, which will allow SSS to undersell its competitors, is likely 
to save the troubled company from bankruptcy.

A company representative, Captain Mark Spencer, denied charges of corruption 
or nepotism, stating the a business case for deferred payment of duty had 
been presented to the Council and accepted by them.

When asked whether he thought the shipments were at risk from ihatei 
marauders, Captain Spencer replied that SSS would be hiring additional 
security staff.


Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 340-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The ducal household announced that Duke Norris was elevated to the rank of 
Archduke of the Domain of Deneb by the hand of Emperor Strephon on 091-1116 
in recognition of his activities in the late Fifth Frontier War.

The Duke plans a trip to Capital to personally accept the Emperor's 
blessing.


Nusku/Sol                  351-1116				(GURPS)

At the request of the Marquis of Nusku, the planetary Duma today ordered 
military protection for an archaeological dig on New Kodiak Island. 
Civilians with no connection with the scientific team have been barred from 
approaching or la nding on the island.


Duma spokesman Ian Direma stated that the Marquis had gathered information 
suggesting that the dig site was the focus of a conspiracy to loot 
archaeological relics. When pressed for details, Direma referred the 
journalists conducting the interview to Marquis Yushchenko's office. The 
Marquis could not be reached for comment.

New Kodiak Island is known to have been the location of a minor command 
center for Terran forces during the Interstellar Wars period. The Reinhardt 
Foundation has been excavating the site for three years, thus far without 
any results of interest to the general public.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  354-1116		(GURPS)

The ships carrying Lady Isis Arepo Illethian and Duke Norris of Regina 
arrived in system today. TNS has learned that the fleets, which merged at 
some unspecified point along their respective paths, actually arrived in 
Core sector some time ago, and hav e spent the intervening period in 
security isolation at an unspecified location.

A press conference is scheduled for next week, shortly before the ceremonies 
that will confirm Lady Isis as Archduchess of Ilelish and Duke Norris as 
Archduke of Deneb.



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  356-1116		(GURPS)

The Imperial Navy has issued a report on its investigation of Archduke 
Dulinor's death, ending several months of speculation. The report concludes 
that Dulinor was killed on 131-1116 when the gig on which he was a passenger 
vanished in a massive explos ion. The report further states that, in the 
opinion of the investigators, the explosion was intentional, and represents 
an act of assassination by a party or parties unknown.

Investigators could not find any remains, but DNA extracted from tissues 
recovered from the wreckage was conclusively identified as being Dulinor's. 
The report also concludes that one or more of Dulinor's assassins also 
perished in the explosion, but i s unable to reach any conclusion on whether 
this was a deliberate act of suicide.

Unofficial sources close to the investigation state that there was 
considerable controversy among investigators as to whether the DNA finally 
confirmed as Dulinor's came from his body or from medical stockpiles carried 
as part of his luggage (many nobl es travel with medical supplies cloned and 
cultured from their own tissues, but it is not known for certain whether 
Dulinor followed this practice).

The complete text of the report was delivered to the Emperor yesterday, and 
will be released to the press after a copy has been delivered to Lady Isis, 
the archduke's daughter and heir.




Capital/Core                  357-1116			(GURPS)

Informed sources within the Imperial Ministry of Justice today confirmed 
that the formal search for the assassin or assassins of Archduke Dulinor 
will be conducted by a special team formed from members of the Imperial 
Navy, the Scout S ervice, and the Ministry of Justice, among others.

No details as to membership were made available, but the sources indicated 
that the team will have nearly unprecedented investigative powers and will 
consist of top investigators from several agencies other than those named 
above.

The team will report directly to the Emperor, and has already begun 
operations based on the Imperial Navy's investigation into the explosion of 
131-1116, which killed the Archduke and the crew of his personal gig.


Aristotle/Solomani Rim (1740-A269985-E)                  360-1116		(GURPS)

The Confederation Navy today announced the conclusion of their quadrennial 
SWIFT RETRIBUTION XXIV readiness exercise. "Civilian traffic in the Gemini 
Subsector may safely return to normal operations," said Commissioner Ignacy 
Aszykkrol , public affairs spokesman for Doan Naval Base. "We are aware of 
the inconvenience these maneuvers cause," he continued, "but the price of 
freedom is eternal vigilance." Commissioner Aszykkrol refused to comment on 
the nature of the exercise or the elemen ts involved, saying only that the 
event had been "entirely satisfactory, good training and a complete 
success."

Later, Lloyd's of London and the Traveller's Aid Society issued a joint 
bulletin rescinding the subsector-wide Amber travel advisory posted for 
Gemini Subsector on 060-1116.


Capital/Core                  364-1116			(GURPS)

Despite the Imperial Navy's conclusions to the contrary, a small number of 
people believe that Archduke Dulinor is still alive. Almost from the start, 
according to sources in the Ministry of Justice, reports of the Archduke's 
survival were received, although the vast majority of them could be 
dismissed by investigators after minimal investigation

An anonymous source reveals that almost a thousand separate reports of 
"Dulinor sightings" were filed with the Imperial Navy, and that more than 
two dozen investigators were assigned to follow them up. Every report was 
found to be without factual basis , but this has not prevented the growth of 
persistent rumors that Dulinor either survived the explosion of Sargon's gig 
or was never aboard the vessel to begin with.

"A lot of people see someone they think resembles the late Archduke," our 
source said, "and let their imaginations run away with them." Evidently, 
many of the "sightings" occurred almost simultaneously in locations 
separated by several parsecs. Even the most outrageous reports were 
completely investigated, our source assured us, and all of them proved to be 
". . . a waste of time and resources."



Lanth/Spinward Marches (1719-A879533-B)                  365-1116	(GURPS)

An Imperial board of inquiry has declared the 10,000-dton passenger liner 
S.S. Sundance lost with all hands. The Sundance, one of Al Morai's Sunfarer 
class of luxury express liners, has been missing since she fail ed to make 
her scheduled planetfall at Lanth on 118-1114, en route from Regina to Mora. 
She was carrying 3,084 passengers (2,054 in cold sleep), 577 crew, and 419 
dtons of cargo when she left Ghandi/Spinward Marches (1815-B211455-A) on 
110-1114. The loss is officially listed as "cause unknown; presumed 
misadventure."

This ruling paves the way for the settlement of claims brought by Sundance's 
shippers and passengers' next of kin. Al Morai officials steadfastly deny 
allegations of improper maintenance or use of unrefined fuel as possible 
explanations for the ship's disappearence, citing their excellent 
operational record and impeccable safety rating from the Imperial Grand 
Survey.


Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

Speaking on condition that he not be quoted, a retired officer of the 
Imperial Interstellar Scout Service confirms that there may be a kernel of 
truth behind Colonel Ruys de Bessier's allegations that Imperial POWs are 
still within the Zhodani Consulate but that they are there of their own 
volition.

"I won't even begin to summarize the reasons, but in almost every war a 
certain number of people perform what might be considered questionable acts 
and are hesitant about returning home . . . some of them take advantage of 
the chaos of war to assume new identities, others simply take a liking to 
their new home and decide not to leave." The officer stopped short of saying 
any Imperials were guilty of treason, but offered the following: "Imperial 
intelligence knows that a number of serving members of the Imperial military 
during the Fifth Frontier War were Zho sympathizers. I think that is pretty 
much what we have here."

The officer concluded: "It doesn't make sense anyway . . . why would the 
Zhos keep POWs this long after the war? You can spin all sorts of crackpot 
conspiracy/espionage scenarios, but most of these are fodder for cheap 
action/adventure holos."



Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

Former Imperial Army Intelligence officer Colonel Ruys de Bessier alleged 
today that the Zhodani Consulate continues to hold POW's captured during the 
Fourth and Fifth Frontier Wars. Colonel de Bessier recently resigned from 
the Imperi al Army citing "matters of conscience."

During a hastily-organized press conference today, Colonel de Bessier 
presented what he described as "overwhelming evidence that many of our 
comrades continue to languish in Zhodani prisons. This is a travesty of 
civilized behavior, and I, for one , refuse to keep silent any longer."

Colonel de Bessier maintains that from 2,000 to as many as 10,000 Imperial 
personnel are held at a number of locations within the Zhodani Consulate, 
and that seven of these locations have been "positively identified." Colonel 
de Bessier refused to disclose by what means these identifications were 
made.

Imperial Military sources declined to comment on these allegations.

A spokesperson for the Zhodani Consulate described the allegations as 
"laughable and lamentable" and "yet another impediment to lasting peace" but 
refused further comment.


Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

General Mueni Arap Rutan, commanding officer of the Imperial Guard, 
announced the appointment of Colonel Murnas De&#8217;Angelo as commander of the 
Ilelish Regiment of the Imperial Guard. The appointment of Colonel 
De&#8217;Angelo, former executive officer of the Antares Regiment of the Imperial 
Guard, finally fills the vacancy created with the retirement of Colonel 
Hiroshi Enera earlier this year. The regiment spent the intervening time 
under the personal command of General Rutan.

There remain three other vacancies in the Ilelish Regiment, also created by 
unexpected retirements earlier in the year, but neither General Rutan nor 
Colonel De&#8217;Angelo would comment on how soon those positions would be filled.


Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

The Imperial Navy has finally returned the personal possessions it impounded 
from Commo Tech First Class Gani Riishao earlier this year. Riisha was on 
duty on Sargon's bridge on 131-1116, when the gig containing Archduke 
Dulinor exploded, killing all aboard.

Gani received no explanation from the Navy, other than a short letter 
apologizing for any inconvenience he may have suffered, and inventorying his 
possessions.

"Nothing seems to be missing," Gani said, "But they still haven't told me 
why the kept everything for so long. I'm more than a little curious."



Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

In a short press release issued today, Prince Lucan, nephew of Emperor 
Strephon, announced that he has changed his mind about embarking on a tour 
of the Imperium.

"My application to the Imperial Naval Academy has been accepted," said the 
prince, "and I will serve a term as an officer upon my graduation." Lucan 
explained that he had been too hasty in announcing his intention to embark 
on a grand tour, and decided , after considerable thought, that he did not 
want to imitate his brother Varian too closely. "I have always been taught 
that each of us must chart his own course." Lucan said, "and I finally 
concluded that I had been too hasty in my earlier decision."

Emperor Strephon had no comment on his nephew's decision, except to state 
that he would support Lucan's decision.


Antares/Antares                  365-1116			(GURPS)

In a joint press conference at the archducal station of Cerise, Archduke 
Brzk and Adkhar Shirushi, head of the sector's Church of the Stellar 
Divinity, announced that the Star of Jyestha will be sent on tour throughout 
the Imperium. Th e Star is a religious artifact believed to have belonged to 
Jyestha Yerubid, the founder of the Church during the days of the First 
Imperium. As there are many autonomous churches of this faith throughout the 
Imperium, this gesture on the part of the Anta rean church is of 
considerable importance.

An itinerary and timetable for the Star's journey has yet to be completed, 
but both Archduke Brzk and Shirushi agreed that it would be present on 
Capital in time for the festivities surrounding the emperor's Golden 
Jubilee.


Jesedipere/Spinward Marches                  365-1116	(GURPS)

A cell of the anti-Vargr group Superioriti has sprung up on this backwater 
world of the Spinward Marches. For the past ten years, Jesedipere has been 
home to an increasing number of Vargr refugees fleeing the depredations of 
the Kforuz eng corsair band. Because of the world's lack of a central 
government, clashes between its original human inhabitants and the Vargr 
newcomers are common. The rise of Superioriti will only exacerbate the 
situation.

The commander of the local Scout base, Nanda Theiss, has attempted to act as 
a mediator between the groups, but to little avail. She stated that "the 
situation is worsening and I fully expect larger-scale violence to erupt if 
something is not done."




_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:51:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:51:06 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:35PM -0400
References: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423204938.A10385@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:35PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless 
> they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which 
> case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.

Interesting.  One of my favourite treats is apricot snuff (the nasal
sort, natuerlich).  Oddly enough, it has no aroma indoors, but if one
steps outside it's really quite powerful, as though one has crammed a
pair of apricots up one's nose, one in each nostril.  Really quite
incredible how something can have no smell and an amazingly powerful
smell, depending simply on the surroundings.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a
reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating
the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for
independence.         --Charles A. Beard (1874-1948), U.S. historian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/23/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you
> > can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes
> > about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people
> > in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek
> > across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be
> > more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a
> > plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful
> > smell to the unwashed.
> 
> An excellent point.  Which is why some hunters use MOPP gear to hide their
> own scent.  I was always partial to Shaklee's Basic-H.  One of those
> biodegradable soaps that proto-enviornmentalists (like my parents) used in
> the late '70.  I don't even know if it's made anymore.  But it had no scent.
> I carefully hoarded my supply for years.

I'm so glad I have all you people to tell me these things.  They are NOT
things I'd ever want to find out on my own!

(I loathe getting dirty and am famous for the line, "if you expect me to
have sex with you we'd better be sleeping someplace with indoor
plumbing.")

I'd probably smell from miles away to the unwashed.  I never use anything
but Shiseido "Taiyou no Megumi" liquid body soap, which has orange, lemon
and yuzu extract in it and has quite a strong citrus smell.  The fruit
acids are good for my oily skin, and it wakes me up in the morning <G> but
no one's ever complained about it because it has no synthetic perfumes in
it.  The same goes for my shampoo, which has camellia oil in it and is the
thing that enables me and many other women to keep their long, straight
hair long and straight and shiny.

> I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
> more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
withstanding!

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:11:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:11:16 2002
Subject: Field Life (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC62145.B5492FFB@premier.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> on 4/23/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> >
> > ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you
> > can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes
> > about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people
> > in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek
> > across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be
> > more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a
> > plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful
> > smell to the unwashed.

For shorter field exercises (too short to become accustomed to field
funk), I found that Deep Woods Off (r) insect repellent was useful in
masking said field funk (when sprayed liberally on both self and
uniforms).  Of course, DWO (r) (even the so-called "non-scented"
variety) would no doubt be easily smelled by someone who _had_ become
accustomed to field funk (since acclimation to natural odors is often
accompanied by sensitization to artificial odors).  Yet another reason
why being a REMF in the field is unusually hazardous....

<<snip>>
> 
> I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
> more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

Hmmm, let's see.  The light from a cigarette lighter can be seen from
way-far away, the smell can be detected from way-far away (downwind,
anyway), the sound of a metal cigarette lighter snapping open or shut
carries for several hundred meters in quiet conditions and the increased
heat created by taking a drag off a cigarette makes the whole head glow
like a lantern when viewed through night-vision devices.

All we need to add are taste and touch for a five-senses symphony of
detection. ;-)

And all this is at TL-7/8 (for the increased sensitivity of the Mk I
Human Sensor Array, it's TL-0).  Imagine how easily a smoker can be
spotted at TL-12+.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8EB6FA1.5837F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 6:05 PM, James Ramsay at quakers_united@yahoo.com.au wrote:

> QUOTE
> The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
> civilians.  It has little or no military application,
> contrary to popular mythos.
> END QUOTE
>=20
> True. But......
>=20
> They don't like it up 'em mister mainwaring, they
> don't like it up 'em ;)
>=20
> James

Which reminded me of Robert Service and this little ditty:

When first I left Blighty they gave me a bay'nit
And told me it 'ad to be smothered wiv gore;
But blimey! I 'aven't been able to stain it,
So far as I've gone wiv the vintage of war.
For ain't it a fraud! when a Boche and yours truly
Gits into a mix in the grit and the grime,
'E jerks up 'is 'ands wiv a yell and 'e's duly
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

=A0=A0=A0Left, right, Hans and Fritz!
=A0=A0=A0Goose step, keep up yer mits!
=A0=A0=A0Oh my, Ain't it a shyme!
=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

At toasting a biscuit me bay'nit's a dandy;
I've used it to open a bully beef can;
For pokin' the fire it comes in werry 'andy;
For any old thing but for stickin' a man.
'Ow often I've said: "'Ere, I'm goin' to press you
Into a 'Un till you're seasoned for prime,"
And fiercely I rushes to do it, but bless you!
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

=A0=A0=A0Lor, yus; DON'T they look glad?
=A0=A0=A0Right O! 'Owl Kamerad!
=A0=A0=A0Oh my, always the syme!
=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

I'm 'untin' for someone to christen me bay'nit,
Some nice juicy Chewton wot's fightin' in France;
I'm fairly down-'earted -- 'ow CAN yer explain it?
I keeps gettin' prisoners every chance.
As soon as they sees me they ups and surrenders,
Extended like monkeys wot's tryin' to climb;
And I uses me bay'nit -- to slit their suspenders --
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

=A0=A0=A0Four 'Uns; lor, wot a bag!
=A0=A0=A0'Ere, Fritz, sample a fag!
=A0=A0=A0Oh my, ain't it a gyme!
=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEODMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEODMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <548ccucmeghot0o03arn2ncsi1vctsa0qf@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 21:06:30 -0400, "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> wrote:

>Whether intentional or not, it still fits the textbook definition of a =
ponzi
>scheme. And a bad idea from the start. The fact that it got bigger and
>messier just follows as the night the day. Putting money away in
>interest-bearing accounts would be even worse. The best thing we could =
do is
>end the program, encourage retirement savings, roll the cost of phasing =
it
>out into the general fund and be done with it. While we're at it, phase =
out
>the rest of the federal retirement system and send it all private. At =
least
>if the politicians and bureaucrats had their cookies in the jar with =
ours
>they might be more apt to keep an eye on the Enrons and Arthur-Andersens=
 out
>there, instead of being in bed with them.

To their credit, at least some of the US politicians have recognized
these arguments and their electoral popularity quite some time ago.
At first, it was just the laws which permitted the creation of tax
deferred retirement accounts (known as Individual Retirement Accounts,
IRAs), which not only allowed, but encouraged a sensible wage earner
to plan for his own retirement.

And, before we get too far into US tax and social debate, I'll leave
further discussion aside.

ObTrav:  Is it any wonder that this isn't a topic discussed in regard
to Law Levels or Government type.  This is almost as sensitive a topic
as Theocracies or Dictatorships.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:22:18 2002
Subject: Field Life (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
In-Reply-To: <3CC62145.B5492FFB@premier.net>
Message-ID: <B8EB727B.58385%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/23/02 8:06 PM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:

> 
> And all this is at TL-7/8 (for the increased sensitivity of the Mk I
> Human Sensor Array, it's TL-0).  Imagine how easily a smoker can be
> spotted at TL-12+.

If a high tech sensor picked up trace elements from tobacco, it's gurantees
that sophs are about (The US government's attempts to get dogs to smoke
notwithstanding).
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:26:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:26:48 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
References: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org> <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20020423183217.00ac19d8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC62532.4060905@yarranet.net.au>

Jimmy Simpson wrote:

> At 06:59 PM 4/23/2002 +0100, Brian Caball wrote:
> 
>> On Tuesday 23 April 2002 17:04, William Lane wrote:
>> > I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 
>> (in fact
>> > i try to pretend it never happened.)
>>
>>
>> I think we all did that ;->

If you wanted to forget Galactica 1980 you should have lived here in oz 
where they never showed it. I only found out it even existed about 5 
years ago.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20423.202030.2k6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I think that the first versions should be some sort of spider-
> legged robot along the lines of some of Rodney Brooks' 
> creations.  They should hide in the daytime and come out at 
> night.  They should be airdropped into the rear, and they 
> should be used to spy on things.  Also, if discovered, they 
> should shoot every warm body they see.  Maybe even give them 
> a blade or two to become an intelligent lawnmower.
>
> The psychological implications are great.  Now, who wants to 
> go on patrol tonight, knowing that if you find one of these 
> things, it's going to make meat by-product out of most of 
> your patrol?
>
> I think a gadget like this is already "do-able"

A story in analog during the Vietnam war had a similar idea. A low
flying (treetop skimming) armed drone "plane" that was *very* quiet.

It'd come upon a group of VC or the like and shoot the most aggressive,
dedicated members. The rumor was that it had a "telepathic gunsight".

The real explanation was that it was programmed to fire on anybody who
shot at it! Anybody who has the presence of mind to fire at something
like this when surprised by it is *definitely* someone you want to
kill. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <DAV43ywkGmY8TkomDt500003bb3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20423.201805.9j0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being tried
> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

There were several stories along that line. One was titled "Brillo"
(they named the robot that because it was "metal fuzz" :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:13:17 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEDKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20423.204803.3O9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>>
>> No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
>> homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
>> sex isn't a sin.
>
> You misstate the RR POV, which says there is no *being* in the equation.
> That would suggest something physical. They tend to deny causation outside
> of the fallen (sin) condition. You correctly stated the RCC position, which
> like the jewish view holds that only the act is condemnable.

Yes, and I was replying to a comment that *specificly* mentioned the
Catholic Church. And used "Church" rather than "Christians" to convey
that.

I wasn't talking about the RRR (Radical Religious right) position. Nor
did the section of the post I was replying to. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus> <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

 >
 > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
 >
 > On 4/23/2002 at 5:05 PM ondy wrote:
 >
 >
 >> Love the cover! Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the
 >> pdf will be somewhat better. I will be buying this.
 >>
 >
 > The jpgs don't do it justice really, so I just posted a
 > 4-page PDF sample also. Same pages, but you get a better
 > look at the layout!
 >
 > http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001s.pdf

Hunter,

The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.

Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
into a single product for your Aide line?

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] High Guard to GT Conversion: Tigress DN
Message-ID: <3CC5EF23.19744.FC0AC1@localhost>

--Message-Boundary-8749
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body

Heres my first attempt at converting my all time favorite CT design



--Message-Boundary-8749
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-disposition: inline
Content-description: Attachment information.

The following section of this message contains a file attachment
prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system,
you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

   ---- File information -----------
     File:  TL12 500,000-ton Tigress-class Dreadnought.htm
     Date:  23 Apr 2002, 23:30
     Size:  6305 bytes.
     Type:  HTML-text

--Message-Boundary-8749
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CkNvcHlyaWdodCCpIDIwMDAgYnkgDQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo=

--Message-Boundary-8749--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:36:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:36:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
 <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <200204240037330379.D4645864@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>Hunter,
>
>The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
>concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
>printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
>that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
>likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.
>
>Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
>into a single product for your Aide line?

It depends on what changes would be needed for a specific on-screen version.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20422.182252.6Q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 19:23
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism

In mail you write:

> If anyone in the Portland/Vancouver area that is on this list hears
> about any job that could use someone good with computers or telecom,
> please email me off-list.

I'm trying to scrape by until I can sell some property. Alas, it looks
like I need to spend several hundred bucks I can't afford just to make
the property likely to sell... :-(
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the reply, Leonard.  Everytime I see people on the street
corners with signs, I think to myself that "someday, that will be me".
I think our economy is too sick to recover.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>; from j-man@attbi.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:43PM -0700
References: <20422.182252.6Q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <20020423231739.A10823@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:43PM -0700, J-Man wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the reply, Leonard.  Everytime I see people on the street
> corners with signs, I think to myself that "someday, that will be me".
> I think our economy is too sick to recover.

Don't worry--no economy is too sick to recover.  This ain't the Great
Depression (thankfully: do _any_ of us want to make our children
miserable with tales of the beginning of the century?).  I rather
think that things are in the slow beginnings of a turn-around.  What
really worries me is the war.  Wars wreck havoc on economies.  The
reasons that the Great War and WWII did not on ours (ask Germans how
the 20s and late 40s were) is that in both we had a good supply of
folks to whom we were the only producers around.

Look at the '70s; at the early '90s.  What worries me is that our
current war is going to make the late '00s nasty indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DAV39YAPNXRPmcarcR4000047a2@hotmail.com>

> >> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being
> tried
> >> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce
the
> >> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
> >> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

> >Not off-hand, but that sounds like one of Harry Harrison's from _War
> >with the Robots_.

> Isaac Asimov, The Caves of Steel, circa 1952.

> Wan't that called 'Brillo' ?

Leading to the next natural question:  How many times has this storyline
been done?

FWIW I think 'Brillo' is the one I had in mind when I originally posted.
Wouldn't bet money on it though.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:39:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:39:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV128tG4tOlxlMWvaw00024086@hotmail.com>

> My favorite robot policeman is ED-209.

Gotta love ED-209.

<snip about Autonomous Robot Infantry>

Presumably biological friendlies on the ground in the ARI op area would
carry some kind of IFF transponder to keep from being carved up by their own
'bot.

Now _there's_ a piece of equipment you'd hate to see manufactured by the
lowest bidder <G>.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 00:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 23:34:03 2002
Subject: Public Health (was Re: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <20020424000942.7DBCE27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E170GLO-0004sI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > 
> > Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think
> > it would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> > bathing and sanitation...
> 
> That means you want the rest of the state to fund your desire to live
> where it's expensive (those subsidies have to come from somewhere).
> That's hardly a good thing.

How about funding sanitation for public health reasons?  Even if 
only 5% of the people lack adequate water for sanitation and must 
crap in the street, the disease risk is increased for *everyone*  
public health measures are a common good that is far more 
effective if everyone has access to it, just like vaccination.  The 
pandemics that swept the entire world for milllennia ended for a 
reason.  This reason was a combination of state-sponsored public 
health measures (for dyptheria, typhus and similar bacterial 
diseases) and vaccination (for viruses like polo and smallpox).  If 
these efforts were privately run then the vaccinations might still 
help many people, but the risks of a vaccine that only lasts a 
decade or two (ad many do) would be far higher and public health 
measures would not protect people nearly as well.  

ObTrav:  Have the PCs visit a amber or red zone world (likely the 
only worlds in the Imperium without at least access to basic 
medical tech) with old style epidemic disease, and have the visit 
occur during an outbreak.  The history of the old pandemics was 
horrifying and even if the PCs were immune, life would be rough 
(especially if anyone figured out they were immune).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 00:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 23:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote

> What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a 
> fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who think
> they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to complain
> that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and agitate
> for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact that lead
> to such a system in the first place, since the rationale that supports
> it can be easily used to support increases, and whether society wants
> to try and "buy" them off).

I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.
 
> There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family (?).
>  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those who
> went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this is
> the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of
> "non-working" class in Europe....

Given how rapidly automation is advancing (much modern office 
work will be obsolete in under 20 years), we are almost certainly 
going to have a combination of increasing GNPs *and* an 
increasing number of people out of work in the entire First World.  
Why should they not share in the bounty of an economy that no 
longer has need for (and in fact, likely cannot deal with) for 
everyone to be employed.  

Look at www.technocracyinc.org for some unusual ideas (that I 
agree with) on this front.

Ob Trav: I wonder how many High Tech worlds in the Imperium 
have large unemployed populations.  Finding a way into space on a 
tramp freighter and Imperial service are likely popular ways around 
this lack of on-world work.


-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 01:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 00:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700
References: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com> <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020424010057.A11114@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
> that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.

Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from
firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure
they often use are suicides.  They also fail to mention that at least
three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other
criminals in disputes over illicit drugs,+or police shooting criminals
engaged in felonies.  Subtracting those, we are left with no more than
3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 01:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 00:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204240723.AAA08458@ping.iii.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

>On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> 
>> Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
>> being paid for by the occupants of the city.
>
>Then why subsidise?  You're forcing the well-off to pay for water and
>electricity for the less well-off.

The issue at hand was sanitation, and the reason is simple: good sanitation
and the like is in everyone's interest.  Do you really want sewage pooling
in your neighbor's yard because he can't or won't pay to clean it up?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 01:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 00:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com> <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and that
> it soon will be be one in much of the First World.

Despite living in a country that subsidises its unemployed to a higher
standard of living than its part-time workers, I couldn't agree with
you less.  A guaranteed income is a luxury that a first-world country
can afford, and may even become an entitlement of citizenship, but it
is far from a fundamental right.

Fundamental rights pertain only to things that you may not have taken
from you.  All else is merely benefits or entitlements of a particular
society.


> Given how rapidly automation is advancing (much modern office work
> will be obsolete in under 20 years), we are almost certainly going
> to have a combination of increasing GNPs *and* an increasing number
> of people out of work in the entire First World.

I partially agree with you.  Not on the subject of the obsolescence of
office work; that's been projected "in 20 years" for as long as cheap
and abundant fusion power has, for much the same reasons.

Increasing GNPs, certainly.  Increasing unemployment, possibly.  More
people deciding that they can support themselves in comfort on less
work, yes.  If it wasn't for the government's anti-incentives, I'd be
working comfortably in a part-time job now instead of deciding whether
I'd rather work full-time with buckets of cash and no time to spend
it, or not work at all and have heaps of time to pursue open-source
programming but not save any money.


> Why should they not share in the bounty of an economy that no longer
> has need for (and in fact, likely cannot deal with) for everyone to
> be employed.

An economy can *always* deal with more workers, if left to market
forces.  If there's a surplus of any labour, skilled or unskilled,
wages for those workers can drop until goods or services become viable
to take up all the surplus.  However, quite understandable political
interests and regulations get in the way in practice.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 03:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Wed Apr 24 02:25:02 2002
Subject: Only a month late but --- was Re: [TML] Who are we?
Message-ID: <1B52330D-5764-11D6-B7BF-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

100+ Digests to catch up on...

Is anyone archiving these? ;-)

Name: Dominic Mooney
Age: 30
Country: UK (currently time sharing between Leeds and Liverpool)
Favorite version of Traveller: T4.1 playtest with HG2 for ships, MT as 
fallback
Military Service: None
Favorite Supplement: High Guard 2, Hard Times, Milieu 0 Campaign, 
mumble-mumble Rim of Fire, Far Trader
Favorite Sector: Solomani Rim
Favorite Race: Zhodani
Favorite Empire: Solomani Confederation
Favorite Worlds: The Promise Subsector ones during Hard Times


---------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com----------
     MacOS X 10.1 - Unix with Style
"Reality, is something that you rise above..
We don't see things as they are,  we see them as we are."
Rich - Marillion - .com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 04:08:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 24 03:08:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424010057.A11114@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204241231200.20326-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

(This seems too much off-topic, I will continue this only on tml-chat, but
will not forward this there, because Robert is not there.)

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
> > that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.
> Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

Well, considering that advancing technology seems to require less and less
labor to work it, I think that we will have more and more unemployed
people in the future. 

Not everybody is capable of working in a service profession. 

This _is_ a big problem. Hopefully we will make up something...

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231704.EVL07840@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC73DFE.1550.56B779@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 13:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST 
> series is that everyone is an officer.

That didn't bother me in the slightest, seeing as there were often 
engineering officers doing what we'd have ratings employed at. 
Obviously the later Star Trek period saw a lot of 'job inflation' in 
the Federation. Probably some bureaucrat thought it'd help morale or 
recruitment if everyone in Starfleet got to be an officer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74248.6442.6778E7@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 15:52, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Of course, you can't beat an autonomous robot infantryman for 
> sheer terror.  It's probably a bit harder to kill than a real 
> infantryman, and it's probably a much better shot. And if you 
> manage to kill it, all you've done is trash some electronic 
> parts.  Not very satisfying.  And you probably can't capture 
> one - even if you caught one in a net, it's probably too 
> dangerous.
> 
> I think that the first versions should be some sort of spider-
> legged robot along the lines of some of Rodney Brooks' 
> creations.  They should hide in the daytime and come out at 
> night.  They should be airdropped into the rear, and they 
> should be used to spy on things.  Also, if discovered, they 
> should shoot every warm body they see.  Maybe even give them 
> a blade or two to become an intelligent lawnmower.
> 
> The psychological implications are great.  Now, who wants to 
> go on patrol tonight, knowing that if you find one of these 
> things, it's going to make meat by-product out of most of 
> your patrol?
> 
> I think a gadget like this is already "do-able"

Pity they'll be rather vunerable to man-portable EMP generators, which 
can be made really cheaply.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:42:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:42:38 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC5E36E.801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CC74249.2877.6779B3@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 15:42, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> > Well the importance of even centurions in much of that strife argues 
> > for them being considered officers - very few coups in the modern world 
> > are started and managed by sergeants.
> 
> Au contraire. A number of coups in Africa have been started by Non-coms. 
> IIRC one of the Liberian coup leaders started as a Master Sergeant, 
> wasn't he? Robert someting or another...
> 
> Also, I believe it was a number of Non-coms who started one of the coups 
> against Noriega in Panama, just before the US invasion.

Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are by officers in the 
Captain to Colonel range, with the next group being those run by 
Generals, though these are quite often one General replacing another 
and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have to do more 
reading, methinks.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:45:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:45:25 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8eb83b1f99b@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74249.9558.677A81@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 17:26, David P. Summers wrote:

> A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more people living on 
> public assistance.  (It may not be 50%, but it will depend on what 
> the level is set at).

Curiously even though this is effectively the case in this country 
unemployment and beneficiary numbers are more dependant on other 
factors than on how much money is paid out to 'dole bludgers' and I 
very much doubt that this would change unless quite a lot more money 
was paid to them.
 
> What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a 
> fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who 
> think they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to 
> complain that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and 
> agitate for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact 
> that lead to such a system in the first place, since the rationale 
> that supports it can be easily used to support increases, and whether 
> society wants to try and "buy" them off).
> 
> There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family 
> (?).  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those 
> who went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this 
> is the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of 
> "non-working" class in Europe....

Until the economy is in a state where the demand for labour is such 
that industries are short of it and people are still refusing to work 
it really doesn't matter if some (or most) of the people not working 
aren't because they can't be bothered.

However I do agree that if the level of support is high enough some 
people will chosse to simply not bother to work. In fact it can be )and 
is) arguned that the level of support to solo parents in this country 
is at that level.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:48:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:48:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019586447.9084.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204231803.g3NI3xJ17762@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3CC74248.24093.67780F@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 11:27, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Steven Hudson writes:
> 
> >   ObTrav: the IN is _the_ crucial piece of the 3I's public 
> > infrastructure; the Throne maintains an effective monopoly
> > on its own ownership. Right?
> 
> Well, by definition the IN is only controlled by the Imperium.  However, the
> Throne does not have an effective monopoly on interstellar naval forces.
> 
> However, the other public infrastructure controlled by the throne is just as
> crucial (though, once again, not a monopoly).  That's starports.

Likewise the X-boat system and the survey apparatus, though again these 
aren't a monoploy.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com>
References: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 19:29, JR Holmes wrote:

> Actually, the Social Security fund was never intended to operate in
> the manner you state.  Your "Instead" is, in fact, the way it was
> intended to operate from the start.  If that hadn't been the case,
> Social Security wouldn't have been able to start paying benefits at
> its inception.
> 
> That original structure was founded on the idea that the pool of
> wage-earning taxpayers would always exceed the pool of recipients.  As
> the US went through the demographic surge known as the Baby Boom, the
> pool of taxpayers expanded greatly while the pool of Social Security
> retirees wasn't greatly increasing.
> 
> With that large surge of money going into the system, it represented
> an irresistible opportunity to the politicians to expand the benefits,
> which is exactly what they did (arguably, not too much of a pork
> barrel).  Further, the US government also changed the law to allow use
> of the Social Security surplus to pay for some of the Reagan deficits
> (which, depending upon your viewpoint, might be where the bulk of the
> pork might be found).
> 
> Now, as the members of the Baby Boom start approaching retirement,
> there are fewer members of the pool of wage-earning taxpayers who are
> paying to support a demographic bulge of retirees.  Had the government
> instead simply banked the surplus at a modest interest rate, it would
> not be seeing the oncoming retirement crisis (instead, we would have
> had a different crisis some time ago).

Hmm. Makes NZ's situation look even worse than it is. Our 
superannuation system was supposed to be a form of government 
subsidised savings, but in the 70s everything got put into a 
consolidated fund for efficencies' sake (actually IMO it was so that 
creative spending practices were easier to hide) and mysteriously by 
the mid-80s all the super fund seemed to have gotten lost. Theft by 
government, ain't it grand?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423190732.A7743@4dv.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CC74404.23217.6E3D9E@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 19:07, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > 
> > Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
> > being paid for by the occupants of the city.
> 
> Then why subsidise?  You're forcing the well-off to pay for water and
> electricity for the less well-off.  To an extent this may be
> appropriate, but I wonder to what extent, exactly.  Anyone deserves
> enough water for drinking to keep from dying and bathing to keep
> leprosy at bay, but any more than that should be on a pay-as-you-go
> basis.

If the wealthy want those they pass on the street to not offend their 
noses, why shouldn't they contribute towards the lower orders hygene?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:57:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:57:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74404.13930.6E3CAD@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 0:39, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Permission gladly granted!  Oz is more advanced than the World's 
> Biggest Banana Republic in many areas, brewing comes first to mind.

That must make NZ incredibly advenced then. :)

As a New Zealander I just had to make that dig. Can't have the Aussies 
thinking they brew better beer than we.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:01:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:01:43 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
References: <20020424063707.194DD27A34@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>

Kiri Aradia Morgan posted:
> 
> I'm so glad I have all you people to tell me these things.  They are NOT
> things I'd ever want to find out on my own!
> 
<snip> 
> > I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
> > more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

This is also the reason, I believe, a number of LRRP members in Viet Nam
ate only local food..or so I've heard. Some of the military vets on list
can probably confirm or lay this to rest.

An interesting sidenote for Traveller is the experience on one of the
many
Apollo flights. Apollo 8, I think. 'Twould seem one of the astronauts
had
a bout with some food that didn't agree with him. It hit when they had
been
in orbit preparatory to leaving for the moon. No one informed Mission 
Control and they were told to proceed (lose out on going to the moon
'cause
of the trots? As if!).

Unfortunately, the only "solids" toilet on board was in the form of
waterproof
bags with an adhesive on the inner rim of the opening. The adhesive
didn't
quite take. Everyone helped clean up the mess that had spread from the
Lunar Module, where the sick astronaut took care of business, to the
Command
Module.

A couple of weeks later, a poor Navy diver opened the hatch after the
capsule splashed down and almost fell off the capsule's floats when the
stench of two weeks of unwashed bodies and other things in something the
size of a small walk-in closet hit him.

Oh, and the space shuttle itself also tends to be aired out after each
mission. And, yes, the real toilet can get backed up. It happened about
5-6 missions ago. It was one to the ISS when the space station didn't
have
a permanent working toilet; the rookie on the mission was told by
Mission
Control to break out the long-sleeved plastic glove. It really was his
responsibility, not an act of bad humor.

He was considered the hero of the mission and I'm NOT joking.

So if a PC ever wants to work his passage by doing maintenance work...

GMs can truly have fun with PCs in small starships. <evil grin>

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74719.7719.7A4A2B@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 21:46, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Well, until I washed when I got back, that was the case.  
> After a few weeks, I couldn't smell myself, and I don't think 
> that anyone could really smell me, unlike the people who 
> smelled like soap.

That's my experience, too. It's one of the reasons we didn't like 
officers carping on about shaving in the bush - even a little bit of 
soap smells (and you have to re-apply camo cream on all that nice clean 
face, and any cuts are likely to get infected).
 
> I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago, 
> and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how 
> you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin 
> gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.

I found that after a week or two my hands became a lot less sensitive 
to extreme temperatures (like hot metal canteens of tea) even though 
the skin didn't thicken - it went sort of glassy, though. I also found 
that you didn't notice your own smell or that of your unit, but other 
units did smell a bit. Handy in bush with visibilty measured in metres 
or less.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <DAV32IKcQEF2a9jE11o0001c2c0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC747A3.30593.7C6423@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 22:09, Samuel D. Weiss wrote:

> John T. Kwon wrote,
> 
> >I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago,
> and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how
> you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin
> gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.<
> 
> That is one of my favorite movie lines.
> As you note, he was joking. He was asked why he didn't bathe. His response
> was that body oils, combined with sweat and dirt formed a natural barrier to
> water. (He was dirty because he didn't bathe, he didn't bathe because he was
> going to get dirty in a trench anyway.)
> Later in the movie when they come upon a group of female Soviet soldiers, he
> climbs into a hot tub with one of them fully clothed.
> 
> A really fun movie.
> :)

It's one of my favourites for getting idjits who've watched too much 
rambo to watch before playing in military or pseudo-military games. 
That and The Wild Bunch to instill proper respect for machineguns.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:11:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:11:43 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC748AA.24912.8066F4@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 20:06, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:

> > I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes
> > carries.  There's more than one reason for snipers to be
> > non-smokers. 
> 
> I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
> for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
> withstanding!

The way cigarette smoke clings is one of the reasons I seldom go to 
pubs these days. It's also way we used to try and get all the smokers 
assigned to other sections before an exercise (that and the fact that 
smoker's cough is not a good thing to be having in a tactical 
situation).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424010057.A11114@4dv.net>
References: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CC74B22.1400.8A0C31@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 1:00, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > 
> > I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
> > that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.
> 
> Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

Why shouldn't someone get something if they can't do anything because 
there's no opening for them? A few years back here in NZ a document 
from the Treasury was leaked which reported that in order to keep the 
inflation rate under 2% (the target at that time, IIRC) interest rates 
would have to be maintained at a point which would also maintain the 
unemployment rate at over 6%. Now if a country is going to do something 
like this in order that its businesses, investors and workers (though I 
have my doubts about there having been any concerns about the latter at 
that time) might prosper, surely it has an obligation to look after 
those that it has ensured cannot be employed?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:21:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:21:54 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CC74B22.1369.8A0CF3@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 17:50, Timothy Little wrote:

> I partially agree with you.  Not on the subject of the obsolescence of
> office work; that's been projected "in 20 years" for as long as cheap
> and abundant fusion power has, for much the same reasons.

Like the 'paperless office'. :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:25:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:25:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423231739.A10823@4dv.net>
References: <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>; from j-man@attbi.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:43PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CC74B22.11314.8A0B4B@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 23:17, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Don't worry--no economy is too sick to recover.  This ain't the Great
> Depression (thankfully: do _any_ of us want to make our children
> miserable with tales of the beginning of the century?).  I rather
> think that things are in the slow beginnings of a turn-around.  What
> really worries me is the war.  Wars wreck havoc on economies.  The
> reasons that the Great War and WWII did not on ours (ask Germans how
> the 20s and late 40s were) is that in both we had a good supply of
> folks to whom we were the only producers around.
> 
> Look at the '70s; at the early '90s.  What worries me is that our
> current war is going to make the late '00s nasty indeed.

Which war? The US expenditure on 'war' was quite high even before 
11Sep2001.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:27:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:27:51 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC74BB9.7090.8C5923@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 6:54, David Smart wrote:

> This is also the reason, I believe, a number of LRRP members in Viet Nam
> ate only local food..or so I've heard. Some of the military vets on list
> can probably confirm or lay this to rest.

AFAIK it's true, and was also done by Commonwealth forces in Malaysia.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:48:02 2002
Subject: Stench (was Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>

----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....


> "Robert A. Uhl" says
> >
> >I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head
> >hurts:-(
> >
> After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless
> they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which
> case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.
>
> My roommate could smell me when I came back, after he had
> bathed.
>
> In the field after a few weeks, I could smell bathed people
> at a considerable distance if they were upwind of me.  But it
> didn't work the other way for them (if I was upwind of them).


There used to be this show on TV about Vietnam (I'm sure that somebody
remembers it), and I remember a particular episode where the platoon was
going to take an attractive female new reporter on patrol with them.  All
the guys in the platoon showered, shaved, and slapped on the colone so they
would look godd when the woman arrived, and the platoon sergant chewed them
out for it...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 07:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 24 06:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <20020424000941.9F23227A05@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424145442.00bc2b80@mail.pi.se>

>Message: 5
>Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:51:57 -0500
>From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hello!

>For anyone that might know the answer:
>
>While working on my Mire landgrab, I have come up with a question that I 
>hope someone on the TML might know an answer for.  (Preferably a correct 
>one.  :-) )
>
>What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain in 
>order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?

If you ignore special cases, such as 3:2 orbit resonance (like 
Pluto/Neptune) or 1:1 orbit resonances (like tadpole orbits), and also 
assume the orbits must be stable over long times, like the age of our solar 
system, you basically have two limiters.

The first and more strict one is that the orbits won't be stable in the 
"forbidden zones" of another planet. The simplest way to think of this is 
to think of the Lagrange points of the system. The LG-1 point (usually this 
is considered to be the equilibrium point between the two bodies) separates 
where a particle should orbit either body. So in your example, the planet 
outside Mire will have an LG-1 point a bit inward. Mire can't orbit between 
that point and the outer planet, it must orbit between the local sun and 
the point. Like this

SUN ---- Mire --- Outer Planet's LG-1 --- Outer Planet

The exact breaking point here depends on the masses involved, but the 
example you give is with certainty stable unless the outer planet is 
extremely eccentric and it has a serious mass compared to the local sun. 
For an Earth-size planet around a Solar-mass star, the LG-1 is only about 
1% of the total distance away from the planet, or about four times further 
away than the moon.

The second one has to do with stability radii in multiple planet systems. 
This can be approximated by using Hill radii equations (for "real" 
calculations you need serious computing runs)  Again, this is an 
approximation and gross simplification, and I am not a professional 
astronomer so I may well misunderstand the math and theory.

But if we assume the central star of your example has a mass of 1/3 of our 
Sun, and Mire is Earth-size and orbits in a circular orbit at 0.2 AU the 
outer planet can orbit at 0.3 AU as long as it is not more massive than 
20-40 Earths (or about twice the size of Neptune or Uranus) without 
disrupting Mire's orbit. It would still affect it, though. If the outer 
planet is Earth-size too, you could potentially have a stable orbit at 0.25 
AU for the outer world.

If we take the original 0.4 AU, the world could be Saturn-size or even a 
bit bigger and Mire would still be stable. For a Jupiter-size world, you 
would likely need a distance of about 0.5 AU from the central star, so in 
this case the next stable orbit would be farther away than the Traveller 
orbit number says.

However, you could get a 3:1 orbit resonance (Mire does three orbits in one 
orbit of the outer world) by placing the second world at about 0.41 AU, and 
in this case Mire might be stable even if the outer planet is as big as 
Jupiter, or larger. This world would still affect the orbit a bit, though.

>The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a 
>distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.  Can 
>that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without 
>affecting Mire's orbit?

As above, unless the outer planet is a large gas giant it is IMO very 
likely the orbit would be stable.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 07:34:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 24 06:34:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
(whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
aged and infirm.  

Something I keep telling my children:

Every able bodied person has an obligation to defend the 
weak.  That's a rather broad obligation, but it's there.  If 
you see someone beating someone, you have to stop it and/or 
get help.  And if someone is unable to work, or is starving, 
you have to help them.

Now, whether or not the government is any good at these 
things is something else.  There are times when you can't 
wait for a policeman to come.  And there are times when you 
can't wait for social services to get their act together.  
You don't have to shoulder the whole world, but you have to 
do something.  Just standing there is not an option.
________________
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <F42fOy8Wx1jgTGAP2tb00002903@hotmail.com>

In mail, "Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com> said...

<SNIP>
>If by "tech dreams" you mean any new research, I disagree with the
>philosophy implicit in your statement.  If, on the other hand, you mean
>pie-in-the-sky nonsense, we're on the same page.
>.
>.
>.
>
>I don't know if the Cromatica system will turn out to be research or
>pie-in-the-sky nonsense.
</SNIP>

Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they' wanted to trial in 
the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras were linked to a database 
containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to alert the local 
police when a 'non-desirable' tried entering the city center (note; in 
England, shopping centers/malls can exclude people for illegal behviour, so 
this is not considered a violation of their rights).
Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of 10,000 bodies 
would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals free to go about 
their crimes...
Does anyone know what happened to this idea?

ObTrav: quite a few; PCs and/or friends get 'misidentified' (either way ;-), 
homicidal maniac gets into a busy shopping complex, "robo-mountie" suffers 
silicon senility and starts arresting *everybody*... ad infinitum.

Jeff.

"You want me to stand *where*??"

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:04:03 2002
Subject: Stench (was Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
In-Reply-To: <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <B8EC093B.58417%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/24/02 5:52 AM, Christopher Pratt at cdpratt@gatecom.com wrote:

> There used to be this show on TV about Vietnam (I'm sure that somebody
> remembers it), and I remember a particular episode where the platoon was
> going to take an attractive female new reporter on patrol with them.  All
> the guys in the platoon showered, shaved, and slapped on the colone so they
> would look godd when the woman arrived, and the platoon sergant chewed them
> out for it...

"Tour of Duty".  Strangely, that very episode was on yesterday.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-lethal weapons
Message-ID: <B8EC0B99.58449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all.  Earlier this month someone sent me the URL for an
interesting website on how non-lethal weapons work.  Which I have, of
course, lost.  If that kind soul could resend, I would be most grateful.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]

> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they' 
> wanted to trial in 
> the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras were linked 
> to a database 
> containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to 
> alert the local 
> police when a 'non-desirable' tried entering the city center 
> (note; in 
> England, shopping centers/malls can exclude people for 
> illegal behviour, so 
> this is not considered a violation of their rights).
> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of 
> 10,000 bodies 
> would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals 
> free to go about 
> their crimes...

Ummm, not quite...

As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
their identity will be free to go about their business.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:24:02 2002
Subject: Only a month late but --- was Re: [TML] Who are we?
In-Reply-To: <1B52330D-5764-11D6-B7BF-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <20020424142311.66979.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> Is anyone archiving these? ;-)

I think I have most of them, but I haven't had tome to
sort through them yet.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:36:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:36:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Who are we?
In-Reply-To: <20020424142311.66979.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEFNDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Citizens of the TML at http://www.downport.com/traveller/TML.shtml has been
around a few years. I'm getting ready to do a periodic update if anyone want
s to add /delete / modify any or their bio info on there.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
> --- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> > Is anyone archiving these? ;-)
>
> I think I have most of them, but I haven't had tome to
> sort through them yet.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <B8EC12F8.58455%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/24/02 7:20 AM, Matthew Bond at mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk wrote:

> 
> Ummm, not quite...
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

So they run undesirables out of town?  Nice.  Where do these people go?  And
who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or just those
detained by the police at some previous time?  What about those who have
already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going to be harassed
by the police.

This brings up an interesting question for PC visiting a relatively high law
level world.  Are they entered into a database because adventurers are a
suspicious class of people?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <DAV35SmLAztxc1o8yfo00004bf8@hotmail.com>

Visionics is the name of the company providing (some of) these systems.

There's a pretty fair article about the thing at:

http://www.mediaeater.com/cameras/news/10-2001.html

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:59:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:59:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B87@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Bond [mailto:mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk]
> Ummm, not quite...
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons 
> banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer 
> to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.
> 
> Matt

That said, of course, you are right that there may be false negatives...
so of the 4 failures on two will be innocents inconvenienced by s
policeman asking them who they are, and two will be 'undesirables' who
get to roam the area unmolested... of course, the next camera that sees
them might well pick them out anyway if the failure rate is 'per check'.
And if the police have copies of the mugshots available in their patrol
car (or downloadable to a handheld device) then they can swiftly check
that the person they are questioning is indeed on the list or not.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <200204241458.EXD05545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
<snip about the "smart" camera system>

The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
be.

Factor in the following:

a.  Criminal warrant issued, but no picture
b.  Criminal warrant issued, but not entered into database in 
a timely manner
c.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
found not guilty, data not updated
d.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
does his time, is released, and data not updated

I bet the actual error rate is over 50 percent.  Just go on 
the web and look at the state of Maryland's sex offender 
registry.  They state up front that they can't keep it up to 
date.  They don't really know where these people live.  I 
spoke to someone in that department, and they said that the 
only way to find out accurate information about a particular 
individual is to call and ask for an actual check - they go 
out and find the individual in question.

The culture and infrastructure for systems like these to be 
near 100 percent accurate do not exist.

________________
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:05:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:05:46 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA2270D@USCHM203>

All those infantry odor stories bring back some memories. In my experience,
I never noticed my own smell or that of anyone else around, though as others
have said, after a shower back in the barracks, you could smell the reek off
of your dirty clothes.
One thing you could smell, if you were on regular duty, was a company
returning from several weeks in the field. I swear you could smell them from
about a hundred yards away, and it only grew in intensity until you thought
a herd of goats was passing by.
Probably why my Gunny called everyone "Goddamn goatsmellers!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <200204241509.g3OF9LD01728@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
...
>ObTrav - Why aren't stewards paid more?  Providing creature comforts for 
>crew and passengers surely must be very important.  Good stewards control 
>morale in the uniformed services and can lure paying high passengers to your 
>nondescript Beowulf.

  Economics? If Steward-0 is six weeks F/T at Chez Ronaldo's, then
there's going to be lots of those people available. As it happens
I subscribe to the "spaceship pilots are going to be quite common,
actually" school but the relatively specialized (spaceship) skills
are still going to have greater market value through rarity.

  OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than
Pilot-3 or Engineering-3 - those latter don't clearly affect the
bottom line, after all.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For the Gun Bunnies out there...
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020424111106.00b8da70@mail.charter.net>

and I is one... (Ok...compared to some I'm a fluffy white house rabbit 
while they are dangerous cave guarding rabbits with sharp pointy teeth...)

<http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/modernfirepower/>

Currently in Playtest, you have to a Pyramid subscriber to access the 
playtest files and boards.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:17:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:17:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <200204241458.EXD05545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC7743B.26719.1EA397@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 10:58, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
> <snip about the "smart" camera system>
> 
> The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
> the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
> Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
> to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
> serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
> incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
> be.

How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
least keep the false positive rate down.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B88@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tod Glenn [mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com]
> Sent: 24 April 2002 15:45
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
> 
> 
> on 4/24/02 7:20 AM, Matthew Bond at mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Ummm, not quite...
> > 
> > As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons 
> banned/convicted
> > etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> > flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and 
> either arrested
> > or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> > bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police 
> officer to confirm
> > their identity will be free to go about their business.
> 
> So they run undesirables out of town?  Nice.

Hardly. They would only be restricted from the main shopping precincts.

>  Where do these 
> people go?

Local shops in the area they lived.

>  And
> who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
> crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or 
> just those
> detained by the police at some previous time?  What about 
> those who have
> already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going 
> to be harassed
> by the police.

I would expect that the idea was to only inclued persistent
shoplifters/vandals/muggers/car thieves etc
And it is hardly and great difficulty to flag each record with an expiry
date.

So upon a criminal coming before the courts for the umpteenth time for
such offences the court can order that their 'mugshot' be placed on the
system for a specified length of time. If they stop offending then after
that time they are removed from the database.

> This brings up an interesting question for PC visiting a 
> relatively high law
> level world.  Are they entered into a database because 
> adventurers are a
> suspicious class of people?

I can certainly see this happening on certain planets who want to keep
track of 'offworlders'. IIRC the second Stainless Steel Rat book
(Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge, I think) by Harry Harrison had such a
culture as the main antagonists.

Matt 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For the Gun Bunnies out there...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020424111106.00b8da70@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3CC7779E.14945.2BE21E@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 11:14, Mark Urbin wrote:

> and I is one... (Ok...compared to some I'm a fluffy white house rabbit 
> while they are dangerous cave guarding rabbits with sharp pointy teeth...)
> 
> <http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/modernfirepower/>
> 
> Currently in Playtest, you have to a Pyramid subscriber to access the 
> playtest files and boards.

Actually while the boards and stuff is still up, it's now out of playtest. 
Lots of fun stuff though, including good (IMO) rules for silencers and so 
on.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn, 
Playtester, Modern Firepower.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:50:39PM +1000
References: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com> <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020424093444.A12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:50:39PM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Fundamental rights pertain only to things that you may not have taken
> from you.

I like the way P.J. O'Rourke phrases it: a right is something which
does not take from anyone else.  One has a right to freedom of
religion--until one starts practicing human sacrifice.  One has a
right to freedom of speech--until one incites a riot.  One has a right
to freedom of armament--until one attacks another.  One has a right to
privacy--until one starts hiding bodies.  One has a right to enjoy
whatever particular perversion tickles one's fancy--unless it's rape.
And so on.

None of these impinge upon anyone else.  A right _cannot_ impinge on
anyone else.  When it does, it ceases to be a right.  When something
is an impingement from the very beginning (e.g. handouts--the money
must be taken from someone), it cannot be a right at all.

> If it wasn't for the government's anti-incentives, I'd be working
> comfortably in a part-time job now instead of deciding whether I'd
> rather work full-time with buckets of cash and no time to spend it,
> or not work at all and have heaps of time to pursue open-source
> programming but not save any money.

In fairness, it's not purely governmental disincentives but also
corporate culture.  At least from where I stand most folks do not want
a three-months-a-year employee.  Which is a pity.

> An economy can *always* deal with more workers, if left to market
> forces.  If there's a surplus of any labour, skilled or unskilled,
> wages for those workers can drop until goods or services become viable
> to take up all the surplus.  However, quite understandable political
> interests and regulations get in the way in practice.

Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
out sewage.  I daresay I would.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:48:02 2002
Subject: Stench (was Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
In-Reply-To: <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>; from cdpratt@gatecom.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:25AM -0400
References: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20020424094725.B12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:25AM -0400, Christopher Pratt wrote:
> 
> There used to be this show on TV about Vietnam (I'm sure that somebody
> remembers it), and I remember a particular episode where the platoon was
> going to take an attractive female new reporter on patrol with them.  All
> the guys in the platoon showered, shaved, and slapped on the colone so they
> would look good when the woman arrived, and the platoon sergant chewed them
> out for it...

Judging by my father's tales of the Navy--back when it was a man's
navy--they probably figured it was well worth it.  Heck, I know from
Scout camp that a few days makes the one girl in camp the most
beautiful woman in the world.  I can only image that after some months
out the effect becomes rather more pronounced.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <OF113CE2E0.677F0151-ON85256BA5.00569E86@pheaa.org>







>Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
>willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
>out sewage.  I daresay I would.

True but because there are so few people willing to do it i bet the pay for
workers to do that job is really good 8P one of the things i believe is a
factor in how you get paid is the number of people able or willing to do
the job. Lots of people want to be basketball stars but very few are able
to play basketball at that level of ability. Lots of people would rather
make 15 bucks an hour instead of 5 but very few are willing to clean sewers
to get it.

anyway hasta

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400
References: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> 
> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
> aged and infirm.  

I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?

People who cannot work are another matter.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In the UNIX world, being dependent on a GUI is the same thing as not
being a sysadmin.                                        --BigZaphod

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:58:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:58:10 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <3CC748AA.24912.8066F4@localhost>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>

At 12:07 AM 4/25/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
> > for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
> > withstanding!
>
>The way cigarette smoke clings is one of the reasons I seldom go to
>pubs these days. It's also way we used to try and get all the smokers
>assigned to other sections before an exercise (that and the fact that
>smoker's cough is not a good thing to be having in a tactical
>situation).

The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people 
having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for 
days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by 
smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.

ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 10:00:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 09:00:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>; from mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:20:51PM +0100
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <20020424095613.D12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:20:51PM +0100, Matthew Bond wrote:
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 10:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 24 09:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <F2090Q5B71GmFs40SIq0000224a@hotmail.com>

From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)

     "Economics? If Steward-0 is six weeks F/T at Chez Ronaldo's, then
there's going to be lots of those people available. As it happens I 
subscribe to the "spaceship pilots are going to be quite common,
actually" school but the relatively specialized (spaceship) skills are still 
going to have greater market value through rarity."


Mr. Hudson,

     Yes, most likely economics or the usual human "we'll muddle through" 
and "it's good enough" attitudes.  It's only a week after all, you can get 
something good to eat, or sleep in a clean room, or whatever after we reach 
our next port.

     "OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than
Pilot-3 or Engineering-3 - those latter don't clearly affect the bottom 
line, after all."

     Most definitely.  Here in the Biggest Little and in many other locales, 
restaurants advertise the chefs they have on staff.  There is a constant 
struggle to lure "names" away from your competitors and hold onto those you 
have.  Naturally for ever heavy hitter, there are dozens of third assistant 
bottle washers.
     If I were GMing today (alas), I'd most certainly present the PCs with 
an NPC super-duper-steward.  That fellow would ask for more pay and be a bit 
of a prima-donna to handle, but he would also fill the cabins with high 
passengers and have high skilled, low wage NPC crewmen begging the PCs to 
sign on.  Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he 
needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to 
insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.

PC - "Cilantro!??!  Just where in hades are we going to find cilantro on 
Roup?  Good Sweet Strephon, Melmotte, cilantro?!"

Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop 
for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze 
baronne merde?"


     Sincerely,
     Larsen
>
>   Steven Hudson
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 11:02:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 10:02:06 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>; from gridlore@mindspring.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <3CC748AA.24912.8066F4@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020424110133.E12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also
> people having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

So you make sure they're not addicts--you don't forbid them to smoke,
period.  Or you allow them other forms of nicotine: chewing tobacco,
while it has a distinctive odour, I don't think is as strong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`You know, there's a word for people who
 think that everyone is out to get them...'
`Yes! Perceptive!'           --Woody Allen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 11:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr 24 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEGDDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Hey, good plot device. Your team has been assigned to popularize tobacco use
among young Vargr to reduce their olfactory effectiveness should they decide
to join the other side in the brewing dissatisfaction with the current
Imperial borders.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for
> days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by
> smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.
>
> ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 12:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Apr 24 11:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus> <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net> <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com> <200204240037330379.D4645864@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CC6F5FF.5070407@telocity.com>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

>>Hunter,
>>
>>The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
>>concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
>>printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
>>that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
>>likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.
>>
>>Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
>>into a single product for your Aide line?
>>
>
>It depends on what changes would be needed for a specific on-screen version.
>
Nothing big, I don't think.  The problem I have with the standard layout 
is that the page length is greater than the screen height at a readable 
resolution. When I go to full page mode, the resolution on my 19" 
monitor is something like 80%, and my tired old eyes can't handle that. 
<g> On smaller monitors, say a laptop, it would be even worse.  But when 
I set the resolution to a nice reading size, I only get a half to 
two-thirds of the page on the screen. Because of the two column format, 
I then have scroll up and down on every page. Scrolling up and down like 
that is a regular pain, especially when charts and tables are involved.

I can think of a couple of "easy" fixes, first if you provided a single 
column format, then it wouldn't really matter if the page length 
exceeded the screen height, as I would only have to scroll down as I 
read.  Alternatively, and a better (but most likely more difficult 
approach)  would be to reduce the page lengths by about half, then each 
page would fit on the screen in comfortable reading resolution.

Hunter, I don't know if either approach would qualify as easy, but 
consideration for something like that would be most appreciated by this 
member of your market.

Please, note I'm not suggesting you change the format for the 
printer-friendly version, that looks very nice. It's just that also 
having a screen-friendly version would be nice, too.

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 12:24:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Apr 24 11:24:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
>
> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]
>
>> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they'
>> wanted to trial in  the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras
were linked
>> to a database containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to
[deletion]
>> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
>> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of
>> 10,000 bodies would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals
>> free to go about  their crimes...
>

Matthew Bond replied:
>As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
>etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
>flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
>or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
>bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
>their identity will be free to go about their business.

I think you've both misstated what it means.  The CCTV will look at all
persons in the mall.  It will misidentify 4% of them.  If 10,000 persons are
scanned, 200 non-criminals will be wrongly identified as criminals and 200
criminals will be wrongly identified as non-criminals.

Jeff's error was to apply the 4% to the population of the city; only the
population being scanned by CCTV is at issue.  (That may, of course, be the
entire population of the city.)  Matthew's error was to apply the 4% only to
the people flagged for police attention.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 13:08:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 24 12:08:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHMEALCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

The only real PC floppy drive compatibility issues relate to the 5-1/4 in
floppies when using the same media between 360KB and 1.2MB drives. Although
a 1.2MB drive can write both 360KB and 1.2MB disks, a serious problem may
occur if the 1.2MB drive erases or writes to a disk previously formatted
with a 360KB drive and the data is then attempted to be read from a 360KB
drive. This will cause random data read errors due to the fact that the
1.2MB drive head is narrower than the 360KB drive head. Thus when the 360KB
drive reads the 1.2MB drive data from the disk, it inadvertently GLEANS the
previous data written by the original 360KB drive.

-Shawn R Sears-
(MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, A+, N+, CCNA)

CCNP Pending!  :-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 13:13:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 12:13:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423190649.00cb5d28@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20424.111826.4l6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I just finished reading Coventry.  Coventry was his "your right to swing 
> your fist ends at someone else's nose" system.
> That was America after the Second Revolution, that was civilization.
> If you rejected Coventry or were denied Coventry, you were sent to the 
> walled off section where the strong ruled the weak.

No. *Coventry* was where you got sent if you rejected the *Covenant*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 13:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 24 12:23:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231147070.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEAMCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> > >
> > > I don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
> > > backgammon on the Metro.
> >
> > Ah, but there's also solitaire.
> >


For $399 you can get one with a built in cell phone, wireless message
service, email, and web browser

www.handspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:02:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:02:12 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people

>having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

Great. Give people one more reason not to reenlist. When I was in the
Marines the smoking rate was easily over 50%, at least among grunts. This
was back in the 80s, of course, so I imagine this has gone down some. 
As far as people having nic fits not being useful in combat, I wonder how
the millions of smoking combat veterans of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam would
feel about that.
We almost had a base-wide mutiny when North Carolina upped the drinking age
from 19 to 21 without a grandfather clause.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 3:00 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #438 - 7 msgs


Send TML mailing list submissions to
	tml@travellercentral.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	tml-request@travellercentral.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
	tml-admin@travellercentral.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: smells (Douglas Berry)
   2. Re: Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack") (Robert A. Uhl)
   3. Re: Re: stewards (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
   4. Re: smells (Robert A. Uhl)
   5. RE: smells (Swordy)
   6. Re: Traveller's Aide #1 (Eris Reddoch)
   7. RE: Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack") (Glenn M. Goffin)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:52:58 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] smells
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 12:07 AM 4/25/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
> > for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
> > withstanding!
>
>The way cigarette smoke clings is one of the reasons I seldom go to
>pubs these days. It's also way we used to try and get all the smokers
>assigned to other sections before an exercise (that and the fact that
>smoker's cough is not a good thing to be having in a tactical
>situation).

The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people 
having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for 
days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by 
smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.

ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:56:13 -0600
From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:20:51PM +0100, Matthew Bond wrote:
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.

--__--__--

Message: 3
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: stewards
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:26:50 +0000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)

     "Economics? If Steward-0 is six weeks F/T at Chez Ronaldo's, then
there's going to be lots of those people available. As it happens I 
subscribe to the "spaceship pilots are going to be quite common,
actually" school but the relatively specialized (spaceship) skills are still

going to have greater market value through rarity."


Mr. Hudson,

     Yes, most likely economics or the usual human "we'll muddle through" 
and "it's good enough" attitudes.  It's only a week after all, you can get 
something good to eat, or sleep in a clean room, or whatever after we reach 
our next port.

     "OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than
Pilot-3 or Engineering-3 - those latter don't clearly affect the bottom 
line, after all."

     Most definitely.  Here in the Biggest Little and in many other locales,

restaurants advertise the chefs they have on staff.  There is a constant 
struggle to lure "names" away from your competitors and hold onto those you 
have.  Naturally for ever heavy hitter, there are dozens of third assistant 
bottle washers.
     If I were GMing today (alas), I'd most certainly present the PCs with 
an NPC super-duper-steward.  That fellow would ask for more pay and be a bit

of a prima-donna to handle, but he would also fill the cabins with high 
passengers and have high skilled, low wage NPC crewmen begging the PCs to 
sign on.  Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he

needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to 
insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.

PC - "Cilantro!??!  Just where in hades are we going to find cilantro on 
Roup?  Good Sweet Strephon, Melmotte, cilantro?!"

Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop 
for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze 
baronne merde?"


     Sincerely,
     Larsen
>
>   Steven Hudson
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:01:33 -0600
From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] smells
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also
> people having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

So you make sure they're not addicts--you don't forbid them to smoke,
period.  Or you allow them other forms of nicotine: chewing tobacco,
while it has a distinctive odour, I don't think is as strong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`You know, there's a word for people who
 think that everyone is out to get them...'
`Yes! Perceptive!'           --Woody Allen

--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] smells
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:21:27 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hey, good plot device. Your team has been assigned to popularize tobacco use
among young Vargr to reduce their olfactory effectiveness should they decide
to join the other side in the brewing dissatisfaction with the current
Imperial borders.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for
> days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by
> smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.
>
> ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.



--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:14:23 -0500
From: Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hunter Gordon wrote:

>>Hunter,
>>
>>The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
>>concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
>>printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
>>that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
>>likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.
>>
>>Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
>>into a single product for your Aide line?
>>
>
>It depends on what changes would be needed for a specific on-screen
version.
>
Nothing big, I don't think.  The problem I have with the standard layout 
is that the page length is greater than the screen height at a readable 
resolution. When I go to full page mode, the resolution on my 19" 
monitor is something like 80%, and my tired old eyes can't handle that. 
<g> On smaller monitors, say a laptop, it would be even worse.  But when 
I set the resolution to a nice reading size, I only get a half to 
two-thirds of the page on the screen. Because of the two column format, 
I then have scroll up and down on every page. Scrolling up and down like 
that is a regular pain, especially when charts and tables are involved.

I can think of a couple of "easy" fixes, first if you provided a single 
column format, then it wouldn't really matter if the page length 
exceeded the screen height, as I would only have to scroll down as I 
read.  Alternatively, and a better (but most likely more difficult 
approach)  would be to reduce the page lengths by about half, then each 
page would fit on the screen in comfortable reading resolution.

Hunter, I don't know if either approach would qualify as easy, but 
consideration for something like that would be most appreciated by this 
member of your market.

Please, note I'm not suggesting you change the format for the 
printer-friendly version, that looks very nice. It's just that also 
having a screen-friendly version would be nice, too.

Eris


--__--__--

Message: 7
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
To: "Traveller-Digest" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:12:42 -0700
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
>
> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]
>
>> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they'
>> wanted to trial in  the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras
were linked
>> to a database containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to
[deletion]
>> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
>> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of
>> 10,000 bodies would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals
>> free to go about  their crimes...
>

Matthew Bond replied:
>As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
>etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
>flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
>or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
>bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
>their identity will be free to go about their business.

I think you've both misstated what it means.  The CCTV will look at all
persons in the mall.  It will misidentify 4% of them.  If 10,000 persons are
scanned, 200 non-criminals will be wrongly identified as criminals and 200
criminals will be wrongly identified as non-criminals.

Jeff's error was to apply the 4% to the population of the city; only the
population being scanned by CCTV is at issue.  (That may, of course, be the
entire population of the city.)  Matthew's error was to apply the 4% only to
the people flagged for police attention.

--Glenn



--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:14:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:14:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Who are we?
Message-ID: <20020424.130435.-189813.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

FWIW I saved all of them, 75 including Dominic's.

Turokan

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:36:26 -0400 "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> writes:
> Citizens of the TML at http://www.downport.com/traveller/TML.shtml 
> has been
> around a few years. I'm getting ready to do a periodic update if 
> anyone want
> s to add /delete / modify any or their bio info on there.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
> > --- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> > > Is anyone archiving these? ;-)
> >
> > I think I have most of them, but I haven't had tome to
> > sort through them yet.
> 
> 

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:21:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:21:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <20424.121604.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> For anyone that might know the answer:
>
> While working on my Mire landgrab, I have come up with a question that I 
> hope someone on the TML might know an answer for.  (Preferably a correct 
> one.  :-) )
>
> What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain in 
> order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?  The reason I ask is that Mire 
> is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a distance of .2 AU.  By default, the 
> next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.
>   Can that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without 
> affecting Mire's orbit?

It's not so much a matter of "how close" as the ratio of the orbital
periods. If two bodies have orbits such that one's period is a simple
multiple of the other, then you get *bad* effects. 

As an example, say there was a planet orbiting the sun at a distance
that would give it a 2 year period.

Every two years, earth would give it a "tug" towards the sun at the
same point it it's orbit. After a while, it'd be in a different orbit.

Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
of the period.

So, for my example above, a planet with twice the period of Earth:

D^2 = 2^3
D^2 = 8
D = sqrt(8)
D = 2.82 AU

For your planets, at .2 and .4 AU, if we call the period of the inner
planet 1, and the distance of the outer planet, 2 we get:

2^2 = P^3
4 = P^3
4^(1/3) = P 
1.59 = P

So the ratio of the periods is 1:1.59 and you *won't* get resonance
problems.

.2 AU is still 18.6 million miles (30 million km) so they aren't
exactly close...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:24:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:24:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <OF113CE2E0.677F0151-ON85256BA5.00569E86@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <20424.124156.7n8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
>>willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
>>out sewage.  I daresay I would.

Sometiomes it's what you are *able* to do. Right now, I could get by
with a fast food job. Trouble is, they involve standing for long
periods. Which I *cannot* do.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:27:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:27:27 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20424.123910.5K5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>>
>> >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
>> 
>> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
>> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
>> aged and infirm.  
>
> I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
> that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
> at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?

Ah, but what about one that lets you "survive"? Not comfortable, just
"tolerable". No luxuries unless you decide to do without something
else...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:44:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:44:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <20424.124156.7n8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <01a701c1ebcf$03eb6280$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Not me, please give me the garbage, sewer cleaning job, as it pays well. the
problem is that so many service industry job are being created. while it
causes unemployment to go down it also means that you have to work 2 jobs
and 60 hours a week to keep a roof over your head. me and my wife work, and
I am trying to go to school to get my degree and certification for Cisco so
I can get a better paying job so my wife can go to school and hopefully get
a better paying job, the problem is, that I am almost afraid to say I will
not be as successful as my parents , so much for the American dream
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism


> In mail you write:
>
> >>Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
> >>willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
> >>out sewage.  I daresay I would.
>
> Sometiomes it's what you are *able* to do. Right now, I could get by
> with a fast food job. Trouble is, they involve standing for long
> periods. Which I *cannot* do.
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:49:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:49:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20424.123910.5K5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020424163654.00b94210@urbin.net>

At 12:39 PM 4/24/02 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> > >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> >> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled
> >> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The
> >> aged and infirm.
> > I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> > able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
> > that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
> > at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> > another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?
>Ah, but what about one that lets you "survive"? Not comfortable, just
>"tolerable". No luxuries unless you decide to do without something
>else...

$20,000 a year won't even get you "tolerable" in NYC.

In Mobile, Alabama, it's on the plus side of "reasonably"

Where you're at has a lot to do with it.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424135724.009f6460@mindspring.com>

At 03:56 PM 4/24/02 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> >The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people
>
> >having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.
>
>Great. Give people one more reason not to reenlist. When I was in the
>Marines the smoking rate was easily over 50%, at least among grunts. This
>was back in the 80s, of course, so I imagine this has gone down some.
>As far as people having nic fits not being useful in combat, I wonder how
>the millions of smoking combat veterans of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam would
>feel about that.

Well, we learned that in Vietnam at least the VC often located US OPs by 
the smell of cigarette smoke.  Having addicts in the trenches does not aid 
in the mission.

>We almost had a base-wide mutiny when North Carolina upped the drinking age
>from 19 to 21 without a grandfather clause.

I was at Benning when that happened. The common reaction was "who cares" 
and the clubs on VD Drive never bothered to check IDs.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>
References: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com> <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com> <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020425073936.A11272@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Hmm. Makes NZ's situation look even worse than it is. Our
> superannuation system was supposed to be a form of government
> subsidised savings,

That was what Australia's old-age pension used to be.  Although the
funds weren't lost, by the time the contributors reached retirement
age, the government had introduced assets and independent income tests
to prevent many of the original people from accessing their "savings",
and the original income taxes that funded the scheme had long since
been legislatively disconnected from the pension.

Now we've got compulsory superannuation.  Oh yes, it looks very
attractive at first -- heavy tax breaks, the government will match any
voluntary contributions up to a certain percentage of your income --
but I doubt I'll be allowed to touch it by the time I'm 55, ... no, 60
..., no, 65.  If there's anything left of it after slowly increasing
tax rates, that is.

Oops!  Not much relation to Traveller here.  Sorry!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC74404.23217.6E3D9E@localhost>
References: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700 <3CC74404.23217.6E3D9E@localhost>
Message-ID: <3cc920e4.11435731@post.demon.co.uk>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:

>If the wealthy want those they pass on the street to not offend their=20
>noses, why shouldn't they contribute towards the lower orders hygene?

Agreed - although I was more concerned about typhoid and cholera...
(and probably new, improved antibiotic-resistant cholera, too). =20

It's all about enlightened self-interest:  it's to my personal benefit
that everybody in my community has access to decent sanitation, even
the poorest.  I'm willing to pay for that through higher taxes.
(though I'd draw the line at filling swimming pools or watering
20-acre lawns;  you shouldn't get subsidies for that...<g>).

=46or the same reason I support giving subsidies to public transport,
even by people who never use it - because they still benefit from
clearer roads, more parking spaces and less pollution.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8ecd76ee706@[143.232.119.186]>

At 11:53 PM -0700 4/23/02, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote
>
>>  What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a
>>  fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who think
>>  they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to complain
>>  that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and agitate
>>  for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact that lead
>>  to such a system in the first place, since the rationale that supports
>>  it can be easily used to support increases, and whether society wants
>>  to try and "buy" them off).
>
>I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and
>that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.

So those of us who work are expected to make sure every gets money 
regardless of what they do?  I think that is both morally wrong (what 
right do other peole have on the fruit of my efforts) and unworkable 
(such system have always become burdened by those who abuse them).

>
>>  There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family (?).
>>   It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those who
>>  went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this is
>>  the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of
>>  "non-working" class in Europe....
>
>Given how rapidly automation is advancing (much modern office
>work will be obsolete in under 20 years), we are almost certainly
>going to have a combination of increasing GNPs *and* an
>increasing number of people out of work in the entire First World. 
>Why should they not share in the bounty of an economy that no
>longer has need for (and in fact, likely cannot deal with) for
>everyone to be employed.

If you want to have a system for those who can't find work that is 
one thing.  But that is a far cry from guaranteed income.

And this whole "technology will create a class of people with nothing 
to do" is nothing more than a recycling of the Ludditism of the 
Industrial Revolution.  The money saved by automation creates demand 
for more products and services by those with the money which creates 
jobs.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:52:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:52:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <20424.121604.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com> <20424.121604.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020425074906.B11272@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
> of the period.

Oops, it's the other way around :)

(2 pi / T)^2 = G M / R^3
so T^2 = k R^3, where k = (2 pi)^2 / (G M)


> .2 AU is still 18.6 million miles (30 million km) so they aren't
> exactly close...

Indeed.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC74249.9558.677A81@localhost>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <3CC74249.9558.677A81@localhost>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8ecd9104997@[143.232.119.186]>

At 11:39 PM +1200 4/24/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 23 Apr 2002 at 17:26, David P. Summers wrote:
>
>>  A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more people living on
>>  public assistance.  (It may not be 50%, but it will depend on what
>>  the level is set at).
>
>Curiously even though this is effectively the case in this country
>unemployment and beneficiary numbers are more dependant on other
>factors than on how much money is paid out to 'dole bludgers' and I
>very much doubt that this would change unless quite a lot more money
>was paid to them.

I don't know if New Zeland is a small, relatively isolated, country 
that is an exception (though I must say I have my doubts) but from 
the Roman Empire, to the Soviet Union, to European welfare states we 
have seen enough to that if they don't have to work, a significant 
fraction of society will go for the free ride.

>
>>  What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a
>>  fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who
>>  think they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to
>>  complain that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and
>>  agitate for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact
>>  that lead to such a system in the first place, since the rationale
>>  that supports it can be easily used to support increases, and whether
>>  society wants to try and "buy" them off).
>>
>>  There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family
>>  (?).  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those
>>  who went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this
>>  is the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of
>>  "non-working" class in Europe....
>
>Until the economy is in a state where the demand for labour is such
>that industries are short of it and people are still refusing to work
>it really doesn't matter if some (or most) of the people not working
>aren't because they can't be bothered.

Of course when jobs come along, why should they be bothered then?  A 
lot of the issue was the _contempt_ for the idea that one should be 
expected to work for a living....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 16:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed Apr 24 15:01:03 2002
Subject: Beer (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <20020424123206.EE8A027A4A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008b01c1ebdb$e8dac0a0$e65d8690@computer>

> From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> As a New Zealander I just had to make that dig. Can't have the Aussies
> thinking they brew better beer than we.

Actually, the best beer in the world is brewed in Australia:  Guinness. : )

Most British and Irish beers brewed in Australia have higher alcohol
contents than the original versions, to allow them to compete in the market
here.

I actually prefer Kilkenny to Guinness.  I drink different beers in
different pubs.  In one, I tend to drink Boddington's.  In others, I drink
good old XXXX (brewed in Brisbane), with VB (from Melbourne) an "if all else
fails" option.  The last two are basically cat urine, but drinkable in
sufficient quantities.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 16:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 24 15:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Question on planetary orbits
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424234029.00ab4ef0@mail.pi.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

 >It's not so much a matter of "how close" as the ratio of the orbital
 >periods. If two bodies have orbits such that one's period is a simple
 >multiple of the other, then you get *bad* effects.

Not necessarily. Gliese 876's two known planets are in a 2:1 resonance, 
both are massive and on short period orbits. I think HD82943 is another 
example. Jupiter's inner three moons are in a 2:1 resonance series, a 
Laplace resonance. Resonance can provide stability to a planetary or lunar 
system, and it may be a not uncommon feature to have planets captured into 
2:1 and 3:1 resonances, based upon simulations of orbital migration.

 >Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
 >of the period.

Keplers third law is that the square of the period is proportional to the 
cube of the distance.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 16:37:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 24 15:37:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020424.145416.-149337.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:38:27 -0400 Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> At 12:39 PM 4/24/02 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >In mail you write:
> > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> > > >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> > >> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled
> > >> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The
> > >> aged and infirm.
> > > I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> > > able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  
> Except
> > > that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me 
> live
> > > at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> > > another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am 
> lazy?
> >Ah, but what about one that lets you "survive"? Not comfortable, 
> just
> >"tolerable". No luxuries unless you decide to do without something
> >else...
> 
> $20,000 a year won't even get you "tolerable" in NYC.
> 
> In Mobile, Alabama, it's on the plus side of "reasonably"
> 
> Where you're at has a lot to do with it.
> 

Well, I hate to butt in here, but I'm a prime example of the above
conversation.

I'm disabled as you all know, pulling in roughly $17.5k via S.S. and my
disability pension. My wife doesn't work, and must take care of me. We
were basically kicked out of the SF Bay area, and now live in an
"afordable" housing apartment in Stockton with our 21 year old son who
works part time, and helped us qualify for our rent.  Tolerable is barely
the word for it. After our 25th wedding aniversary next month, we may
divorce just so that my wife can receive SSI. If we do, then our life
here might be considered tolerable.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
Message-ID: <147.d7848aa.29f899cd@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/24/2002 2:04:39 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:

>Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for 
>days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by 
>smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.

That's why I never understood those commercials for [various products] to 
remove tobacco stains from the teeth. They usually take the following form:

"A: Have you quit smoking?
B: Uh . . . what do you think?
A: Your teeth are so white . . . "

I never understood this because in my experience just being in the same room 
with a smoker can make one's clothes _reek_ of tobacco for days. I could 
always tell when my brother gave up trying to quit, and when my nephew took 
up pot on a regular basis.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <147.d7848aa.29f899cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>

Try being allergic to cig smoke.
It makes being out in public very unhappy, especially when I don't sneeze,
but develope the all over body itch. VERY nasty.

Then again I do a lot of hiking and I know that folks in the field develop a
special smell that they don't notice till they clean up. At least we act
like we don't notice ;)

TV

--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <20020424095613.D12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250924020.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Robert:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

 The incorrect response is "Sorry Man I've only got a pipe."

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:59:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:59:36 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <20020424110133.E12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250925440.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Robert:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> >
> > The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also
> > people having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.
>
> So you make sure they're not addicts--you don't forbid them to smoke,
> period.  Or you allow them other forms of nicotine: chewing tobacco,
> while it has a distinctive odour, I don't think is as strong.

 Yes in the field we did only eat native food. As the VC could smell us
miles away. All the nice products that the service present to us have
distinctive smells. From shaving materials to the gun oil. Making us
olafactory targets.

 As for smoking, this is a touchy subject. i happen to be pro smoking. But
if it is a way soon to beat the draft. Well I know a lot of people that
will take it up. A mess more that would have used it back in 68. <G>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:06:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:06:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
> Matthew Bond replied:
> >As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> >etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> >flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> >or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> >bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> >their identity will be free to go about their business.
>
> I think you've both misstated what it means.  The CCTV will look at all
> persons in the mall.  It will misidentify 4% of them.  If 10,000 persons
are
> scanned, 200 non-criminals will be wrongly identified as criminals and 200
> criminals will be wrongly identified as non-criminals.
>
> Jeff's error was to apply the 4% to the population of the city; only the
> population being scanned by CCTV is at issue.  (That may, of course, be
the
> entire population of the city.)  Matthew's error was to apply the 4% only
to
> the people flagged for police attention.
>
> --Glenn

Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in
the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database? It
is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken as one in 25
of the members of the database will be misidentified... If there was only
one picture in the database is there a 4% chance that any given person will
be identified as it? Or much more likely, if there was only one person in
the database 4% of the time the system would report 'no match' when
analysing a picture of that individual.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250925440.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link writes:

>  As for smoking, this is a touchy subject. i happen to be pro smoking. But
> if it is a way soon to beat the draft. Well I know a lot of people that
> will take it up. A mess more that would have used it back in 68. <G>

Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine they'd
just draft you anyway and force you to quit.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHMEALCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Shawn:

Comments below quoted.

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Shawn R Sears wrote:

> The only real PC floppy drive compatibility issues relate to the 5-1/4 in
> floppies when using the same media between 360KB and 1.2MB drives. Although
> a 1.2MB drive can write both 360KB and 1.2MB disks, a serious problem may
> occur if the 1.2MB drive erases or writes to a disk previously formatted
> with a 360KB drive and the data is then attempted to be read from a 360KB
> drive. This will cause random data read errors due to the fact that the
> 1.2MB drive head is narrower than the 360KB drive head. Thus when the 360KB
> drive reads the 1.2MB drive data from the disk, it inadvertently GLEANS the
> previous data written by the original 360KB drive.

 All of the above is interesting. But not my main Traveller theme part.
For example <composing a reply to a prior msg with this topic> The entire
premise above is dealing with the measurements of the micro$haft style of
disks and formatting. i use Commodore exclusively. First we measure in
blocks 4 = 1kb. The single sided drives read thes disk at 664 C= blocks.
This is the 1541 disk drive. If I can do the math right that is 166kb Then
the 1571 dreive is a double head reader. Now the Comodore built 3 1/2"
drive did the double sided double density disks and formatted at 800kb
free. 790kb free if formatted in the Geos/Wheels OS environment. CMD's
FD-2000 does the DD/DS 3 1/2" disks but also the high density disks and
formats them at 1.6MB. Commodore never made a high density 5 1/4" drive.
Any one want a collection of the HD 5 1/4" disks? Got a mess of them some
factory. Make great targets. <G>

 Anyway what my Traveller computer premise is about is not only different
eras of computers of the same platform. But different standards amongst
the history of the Imperium and the subjective worlds. From multiple
companies in the Imperium. All the ay to the different tech level worlds
that have some sort of Imperial contact.

 Now then all tat said. We have talked about some converting things. using
what I know which is a samttering of the techy stuff for the Commodore
world. i have tools that allow translation on my system. Allowing me to
translate from Pet to Ascii and back again. So that part is covered for
text. I also have tools that allow scaling of JPGs and GIFs. These at
videocam. That allow for my screen size. I have tools to pas along to the
windoze and Amiga users that allow the text translation for my preferred
DT <Desk Top> system Geos. Even the ability to make .D64 image files for
the emulator users.

 OK what I am looking at on this topic is the same type of things in tols
and utils for converting different standards and platforms in the 3I.
Based and projecting from the exisitng styles we have now. Putting that
into the CT game.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250956500.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Anthony:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine they'd
> just draft you anyway and force you to quit.

 i don't know about the draft. The last I heard it takes a fast vote in
congress to reinstate it. On this I am not certain. I personally am way to
old to be drafted. But they can recall me if needed. ALmost happened in
Desert Storm. But smokers that fight the quit part would most likely be
discharged under the unfit for military service clauses. Which I
understand there are many classifications for that now. But I have been
out of the military since 71. Oh FWIW I don't smoke cigs, being a pipe
smoker for 40+ years. Nope don'T want to quit and my O2 rate last year was
99% at my physical. <G>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250956500.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019696542.4978.ajackson@ping>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link writes:
> Hoi Anthony:
> 
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> > Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine
> > they'd just draft you anyway and force you to quit.
> 
>  i don't know about the draft. The last I heard it takes a fast vote in
> congress to reinstate it.
Sure, congress is theoretically able to reinstate the draft.  They're just
vanishingly unlikely to want to.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 19:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 18:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425073936.A11272@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC800BE.5191.7D9315@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 7:39, Timothy Little wrote:

> That was what Australia's old-age pension used to be.  Although the
> funds weren't lost, by the time the contributors reached retirement
> age, the government had introduced assets and independent income tests
> to prevent many of the original people from accessing their "savings",
> and the original income taxes that funded the scheme had long since
> been legislatively disconnected from the pension.

Sounds like the same old story.
 
> Now we've got compulsory superannuation.  Oh yes, it looks very
> attractive at first -- heavy tax breaks, the government will match any
> voluntary contributions up to a certain percentage of your income --
> but I doubt I'll be allowed to touch it by the time I'm 55, ... no, 60
> ..., no, 65.  If there's anything left of it after slowly increasing
> tax rates, that is.

I think that's where we're headed. The previous government had this 
system where you could set up your fund with a commercial provider, and 
therefore it should be safe from the government. Of course you're then 
relying on the provider being around when you retire, and the terms and 
conditions not being quietly changed. And of course you're also having 
to pay for the profits of the provider out of your interest.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 19:15:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 18:15:58 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>
References: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400
Message-ID: <3CC800BD.22553.7D928D@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 9:54, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >
> > >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> > 
> > Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
> > (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
> > aged and infirm.  
> 
> I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
> that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
> at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?

As long as there are more people willing to work then there are slots 
available, why not? By not working you're accepting a lower income in 
order to make the slot you'd have taken open for another who wants it 
more than you. This works until there's a labour shortage and people 
are still not working, at which point continuing to pay non-workers 
will be a disaster.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <200204250229.g3P2T6G09549@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: stewards
...
>"OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than Pilot-3
...
>     If I were GMing today (alas), I'd most certainly present the PCs with 
>an NPC super-duper-steward.  That fellow would ask for more pay and be a bit 
>of a prima-donna to handle, but he would also fill the cabins with high 
>passengers and have high skilled, low wage NPC crewmen begging the PCs to 
>sign on.  Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he 
>needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to 
>insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.

  Why an NPC? It seems like a great excuse for not being
too useful in the firefights that the D&D'ers keep trying 
to provoke. It might even be combined with some social
skills or a problem-solving approach :)

  But if an NPC, then the occasional review of "Fawlty
Towers" should be considered!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 20:32:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 19:32:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person
> in 25 in the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of
> the database?

That's far better than the failure rate of many previous systems.


> It is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken
> as one in 25 of the members of the database will be misidentified.

If you'd ever done any image-recognition work, you'd know that a 4%
false-positive rate is extraordinarily good for "in the field" runs,
at an acceptable false-negative rate.

What you seem to be saying is that the system has a 4% false-negative
rate and a false-positive rate somewhere less than 0.1%.

If that's really what they meant, either the system designers are the
best geniuses this side of Andromeda, or they're snake-oil salesmen.
I'm betting on the latter, if they're really claiming what you say.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 21:35:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed Apr 24 20:35:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1ec0a$1bc04ca0$0b01a8c0@duck>

Thank you all for the answers.  Just a little more explanation:

While working on my Mire landgrab, I ran its configuration through Heaven
and Earth.  When I did that, I got a really interesting system, which
included three planets (in addition to Mire) with a type "6" atmosphere and
a > 1 hydrosphere.  Too bad the star is a measley K6 V!  (Actually it was
two planets and one moon, and the moon orbits one of these planets.)

Anyway, I really wanted to make the second planet (the one without the moon)
habitable (i.e. really cold, not frozen solid like I got in the first
place).  So I had to start fudging numbers.  Actually, I doubt that it would
still be warm enough where I put it, but I figure it should be close enough.
:-)

BTW, that is the one main frustration I had with H&E:  it forces the orbit
distances.  So, orbit 0 is *always* .2 AU, orbit 1 is *always* .4 AU.  This
means that for the smaller suns that nice warm planet from canon discription
is really frozen solid.  (Either that or the planet ends up being too close
and is an inferno with a "base" climate temperature of 45+ C.)  The program
has no way to tweak the orbital distance.  The only way I could simulate
that was to vary the size of the star until I got close to the temperatures
I needed.

In case anyone is actually curious as to what I have so far, the description
is at http://www.caddocourt.com/traveller/mire/ .  (If you go one level
higher to http://www.caddocourt.com/traveller you can see my Daryen page and
my other landgrab attempts.)  It is still very much a work in progress, but
it is starting to take shape.

Again, thanks for the help.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:06:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:06:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
References: <F2090Q5B71GmFs40SIq0000224a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC77F60.88D8F9C8@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
>
>    <snip> Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he
> needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to
> insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.
>
> PC - "Cilantro!??!  Just where in hades are we going to find cilantro on
> Roup?  Good Sweet Strephon, Melmotte, cilantro?!"
>
> Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop
> for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze
> baronne merde?"
>
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen

I've done this with a Vargar steward on my groups ship. Keeping her in fresh
meat is a real challenge at points. Especially since she insists on sharing it
all with the passengers and crew. Hadn't really thought of the ingredient angle.
Thanks Larsen.



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Sorry doesn't put thumbs on the hands, Marge.
                          -Homer Simpson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:09:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:09:59 2002
Subject: Beer (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <20020424123206.EE8A027A4A@mail.travellercentral.com> <008b01c1ebdb$e8dac0a0$e65d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CC77FE1.1580CF1F@premier.net>


Alan Bradley wrote:
> 
> > From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> > As a New Zealander I just had to make that dig. Can't have the Aussies
> > thinking they brew better beer than we.
> 
> Actually, the best beer in the world is brewed in Australia:  Guinness. : )
> 
> Most British and Irish beers brewed in Australia have higher alcohol
> contents than the original versions, to allow them to compete in the market
> here.

Ah, then 307 Ale would find a ready market in Australia:

http://www.tomsmithonline.com/lyrics/307ale.htm

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:25:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:25:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>

< snip debate on system accuracy >

More grist for the mill at:

http://www.visionics.com/faceit/faqs/recog.html

Keep in mind this is info from the company that sells the technology.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:30:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:30:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
In-Reply-To: <3CC77F60.88D8F9C8@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8ECD20F.58816%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/24/02 9:00 PM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

>> Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop
>> for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze
>> baronne merde?"
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> Larsen
> 
> I've done this with a Vargar steward on my groups ship. Keeping her in fresh
> meat is a real challenge at points. Especially since she insists on sharing it
> all with the passengers and crew. Hadn't really thought of the ingredient
> angle.
> Thanks Larsen.

I once ran an Aftermath campaign where the players were kept busy looking
for ingredients for an omelet by a deranged gourmand in return for some
penicillin.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:38:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:38:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <3CC73DFE.1550.56B779@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC785BE.E6ACFF88@premier.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> On 23 Apr 2002 at 13:04, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> > The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST
> > series is that everyone is an officer.
> 
> That didn't bother me in the slightest, seeing as there were often
> engineering officers doing what we'd have ratings employed at.
> Obviously the later Star Trek period saw a lot of 'job inflation' in
> the Federation. Probably some bureaucrat thought it'd help morale or
> recruitment if everyone in Starfleet got to be an officer.

I suspect that the rank inflation of the ST universe (and many other
fictional universes) has more to do with the observation that Robert
Heinlein (adroitly bringing the thread back to its title) made in _Job:
A Comedy of Justice_ that civilians automatically seem to equate
themselves with officers, regardless of the actual position the
civilians in question hold in the employment and/or social hierarchy.

One of the things that annoyed me most about Twilight: 2000 (second
edition) is that, according to the chargen rules, I did not exist. 
According to T2K (2e), only Military Intelligence officers could perform
interrogator duties; enlisted MI types were treated as equivalent to
Support branch (i.e., mechanics and the like).  As an enlisted
interrogator (MOS 97E4P) who currently has 18+ years of experience in
the field, I was (understandably, I think) quite put out by this chargen
rule, especially since very few MI commissioned officers in the US Army
_ever_ learn how to interrogate prisoners of war.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:46:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:46:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500
References: <147.d7848aa.29f899cd@aol.com> <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20020424223740.A14385@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
>
> Try being allergic to cig smoke.

That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
<http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.

Perhaps you're slightly asthmatic, or have other allergies which smoke
in generl triggers?


-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I have a love for coding.  I have a love for staying up for days at a
time living off of Tea and Cigarettes, doing nothing but wearing the
letters off of the keys in front of my computer.  My bills have a love
for being paid on time.                                 --Jace of Fuse!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:55:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:55:28 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:07:21PM -0700
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250925440.30393-100000@vcsweb.com> <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020424224232.B14385@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:07:21PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine they'd
> just draft you anyway and force you to quit.

I'd claim smoking is part of my philosophy (i.e. religion).
C.S. Lewis smoked, J.R.R. Tolkien smoked, G.K. Chesterton smoked, and
frankly I care more about the dust which clung to their heals than all
the words and thoughts of the Koops and Kesslers of this world.

Not that this has anything to do with military service.  Not being an
addict, I have gone for quite extended periods of time without
tobacco, when the sitution warranted.  No doubt I'll do so again.  So
I could quite cheerfully go into the bush for awhile, come out,
shower, shave, light a nice pipe and relax.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd' - Ian Lamb, age 3.5

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 23:03:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Wed Apr 24 22:03:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
Message-ID: <3CC74587.16615.16FC24A@localhost>

--Message-Boundary-12821
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body

heres the second in my series of conversions


--Message-Boundary-12821
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Content-description: Attachment information.

The following section of this message contains a file attachment
prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system,
you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

   ---- File information -----------
     File:  TL12 200,000-ton Kokirrak-class Dreadnought.htm
     Date:  24 Apr 2002, 23:52
     Size:  6613 bytes.
     Type:  HTML-text

--Message-Boundary-12821
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--Message-Boundary-12821--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 23:18:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 22:18:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> http://www.visionics.com/faceit/faqs/recog.html
> 
> Keep in mind this is info from the company that sells the technology.

Yep.  It's actually worse than I thought.  On internal comparison
tests on a standardised database, its best error sum is above 1%.  A
reasonable rule of thumb in image recognition, is that in typical
deployed conditions error rates (of both types) go up by at least an
order of magnitude over standardised test data.  That's assuming
no-one is actually trying to fool the system!

That means that if you want 90% detection of known criminals or
troublemakers, you'll have to put up with misidentifying *at least* 5%
of the general public as people in the database.  A rather small
shopping mall would have say 10000 people passing through in a day,
that's about 500 false alarms.

Worse still, the 'tails' of feature set detection lengthen in
realistically noisy data, which means that reducing the threshold has
less effect on error rates in real conditions than in standardized
data.  So while reducing the threshold by 5% may halve the
false-positive rate in test data, it may only reduce false-positives
by 30% in real data.  So you get double-hit by real noise: Not only do
your error rates go up, but your ability to reduce errors by reducing
the threshold for detection goes down.

Ignoring the likelihood that people are going to deliberately spoof
the system, let's say you want a false-positive rate of less than 1%
(100 innocent members of the public bothered per shopping mall per
day).  Judging by their own graphs, I'd be very surprised to see 50%
effectiveness at detecting known troublemakers in real conditions.

Including the fact that some of the people in the database *will* try
to avoid detection, I'd put the hit rate at more like 20%.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 23:36:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 24 22:36:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com> <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>

> Judging by their own graphs, I'd be very surprised to see 50%
> effectiveness at detecting known troublemakers in real conditions.
>
> Including the fact that some of the people in the database *will* try
> to avoid detection, I'd put the hit rate at more like 20%.
>

Given the current state of the art, how long do you think it will be before
the performance of this system is able to live up to the hype?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 00:10:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 24 23:10:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> >The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people
> >having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.
> Great. Give people one more reason not to reenlist. When I was in the
> Marines the smoking rate was easily over 50%, at least among grunts. This

Well, I wouldn't want to be in the field with smokers. It has no good
points, and many bad.

Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even farther with image
intensifiers. Also, you might want not to leave much stuff around, which
is quite hard if you have to remember collecting everything you smoke.

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 00:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Wed Apr 24 23:14:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <3CC6F5FF.5070407@telocity.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
 <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>
 <200204240037330379.D4645864@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3CC6F5FF.5070407@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <200204250108350264.D9A71D60@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/24/2002 at 1:14 PM Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>I can think of a couple of "easy" fixes, first if you provided a single 
>column format, then it wouldn't really matter if the page length 
>exceeded the screen height, as I would only have to scroll down as I 
>read.  Alternatively, and a better (but most likely more difficult 
>approach)  would be to reduce the page lengths by about half, then each 
>page would fit on the screen in comfortable reading resolution.
>
>Hunter, I don't know if either approach would qualify as easy, but 
>consideration for something like that would be most appreciated by this 
>member of your market.

Hmm. Its something I will definately look into. The main problem I see=
 though is we would have to layout the PDF twice for each edition. once for=
 a 'print' version and once for an 'on-screen' version. I'll have to talk=
 to Steve and see what he thinks it might add time-wise on his part to=
 handle it.

It would also be an interesting question to pose to those who buy the PDFs,=
 to see if there is a larger preference one way or another.

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 00:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 23:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com> <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020425163025.A12453@freeman.little-possums.net>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> Given the current state of the art, how long do you think it will be
> before the performance of this system is able to live up to the
> hype?

Same answer that I'd give to any other prediction about near future
technology; fusion power, paperless office, a machine able to
understand natural spoken language, house-cleaning robots, generally
available space tourism, and widespread acceptance of video phones and
electric cars: "20 years" :)

(Of course, most of these were "20 years" away in the 1960s...)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 01:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 00:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020420102803.C4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020420102803.C4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020425175119.A12598@freeman.little-possums.net>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Let 't' be the number of orbits (or fractional orbits).  Then
>   theta = 2 arctan ((1+e) tan(pi t) / sqrt(1-e^2)).  (I hope)

It looks like my hopes were dashed.  That's what I get for doing
orbital dynamics on an empty stomach!  The (hopefully *this* time)
correct formula is

pi t = arctan (sqrt(1-e^2) tan (theta/2) / (1+e))
       - (e sqrt(1-e^2) sin theta) / 2(1 + e cos theta) 

(If you forget the second line like I did, you get my incorrect
formula above).  Unfortunately this expression can't be simply solved
for theta like the previous one.  You can easily find the time for a
given position, but that's not very useful :)  You'll need to use a
numerical method to find the position at a given time.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020423183217.00ac19d8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEFBHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Jimmy Simpson wrote :

> IMHO, there was precisely 1 good episode of Galactica 
> 1980, "The Return of Starbuck".

Was that about a newly-reopened coffe franchise ?

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:47:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:47:57 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8eb83b1f99b@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAAEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :
> A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more
> people living on public assistance.  (It may not
> be 50%, but it will depend on what the level is set at).

I think the 200AD "Judge Dredd" series shows what such a society
would turn into.

(200AD has always been very good SF IMO, even if some of the
stories and characters were relatively puerile, it does explore
the issues, both social and technological like SF is supposed
to ).

Not only would people not work, but because of the lack of
workers, more and more things would have to be automated,
companies would find it harder to make a profit, and as part of
the circle, the number of available jobs would actually reduce to
the point where having more than one would become illegal.

> What is more, in approached like this the money is
> considered a fundamental "right".  This creates an
> entire class of people who think they have a right
> to expect to be supported.

This has happened in many "western" countries including New
Zealand, England, and Holland to name the ones that I'm
personally familiar with.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:50:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:50:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RPGs
In-Reply-To: <95.1b594c7e.29f6ba34@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :
> tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> > GDW, Chaosium, WRG, TSR, Flying Buffalo, Steve Jackson,
> > Steve Curtis, and many other primarily wargaming
> > companies were all in the process of adding fantasy
> > wargaming and roleplaying systems of various forms
> > to their wargames, largely due to the popularity
> > of "Lord of the Rings" at the time. These were based
> > originally on personalization details for their army
> > "generals" and "special figures", and also on the trend
> > toward small scale "skirmish" wargames where the individual
> > figures were heavily personalized and even given "character",
> > of which "Chainmail" was just one, and not the most
> > influential either.
>
> You've obviously done considerable research if you
> know of Steve Curtis -- few people do nowadays.

It's not research, just memory. I was heavily involved in
wargaming at the time.
I still have a lot of boardganes and few thousand lead figures in
various scales.

I have a letter from Steve's dad telling me of his unfortunate
death somewhere.
I had ordered another copy of his Old West Skirmish rules, as my
original had become pretty heavily worn (they were only
gestetners or photocopies of the typed manuscripts at the the
time, no fancy printing like you get these days <grin>), along
with a new pair of d20's, and his dad filled the order and gave
me the news.

> >While I'm not going to deny D&D's importance, it was not, IMO,
> >neccessary for the development of roleplaying.
>
> I'm not as certain of that as you are . . . let us
> agree to disagree.

Certainy. I was, after all, merely expressing my opinion.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:53:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:53:58 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC74249.2877.6779B3@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are
> by officers in the Captain to Colonel range, with
> the next group being those run by Generals, though
> these are quite often one General  replacing another
> and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have
> to do more reading, methinks.

You will, a coup in one of the West Inddian isles (Grenada?) was
led by a Corporal, IIRC

And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424.145416.-149337.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> Well, I hate to butt in here, but I'm a prime
> example of the above conversation.
>
> I'm disabled as you all know, pulling in roughly
> $17.5k via S.S. and my disability pension.

Just to show that "tolerable" is definitely relative:

What you are are earning on your benefits, is, when translated to
New Zealand dollars, almost _twice_ both the average wage, and
twice what a family of _six_ would be expected to live on in New
Zealand on the unemployment benefit.

It is more than what a non-senior teacher would earn and about
what a policeman would earn here after a year or so on the job.
It is approximately 1.25 times what I earned as an NCO avionics
technician in the Air Force

However, outside of a few high cost areas lke New York city and
the Silcon Valley environs, the cost of living in New Zealand is
not appreciably lower than that in the US (at least according to
my sister who has recently returned from  the US), so what (you
seem to be implying) constitutes hardship for you, would be
considered moderately well to do in New Zealand.

Of course, I'm sure someone from Russia could point out they
could live like a king on 17.5K USD p.a.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 03:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr 25 02:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8A@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Pitt [mailto:frankie@mundens.gen.nz]
> Sent: 25 April 2002 09:57
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] RE: Bayonets
> 
> 
> Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> > Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are
> > by officers in the Captain to Colonel range, with
> > the next group being those run by Generals, though
> > these are quite often one General  replacing another
> > and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have
> > to do more reading, methinks.
> 
> You will, a coup in one of the West Inddian isles (Grenada?) was
> led by a Corporal, IIRC
> 
> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.
> 
> Frankie

And IIRC Idi Amin was a Sergeant

Matt 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:12:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <200204241458.EXD05545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20425.005842.9d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn says
> <snip about the "smart" camera system>
>
> The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
> the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
> Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
> to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
> serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
> incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
> be.
>
> Factor in the following:
>
> a.  Criminal warrant issued, but no picture
> b.  Criminal warrant issued, but not entered into database in 
> a timely manner
> c.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
> found not guilty, data not updated
> d.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
> does his time, is released, and data not updated

e. Criminal warrant issued, data entry goof and innocent person's data
attached.

This happens with depressing regularity with systems that are used by
local police and sheriffs departments to put out wants & warrants info
nationwide. 

Several incidents were reported in comp.risks over the years. One of
the problems is that far to many of the systems that local deparetments
feed the data from *other* departments into have no provisions for
receiving *corrections*.

At least one person had to get a signed, notarized letter from the
department that had issued the original erroneus report and carry it
with him when travelling as otherwise any time he got stopped for
*anything*, he'd wind up in the local jail waiting for their attempts
to arrange for him to be picked up and transferred to come back with a
"Huh? We don't want that guy..."

The letter merely changes things so that he can get the department
that's picked him up to actually make a direct *call* to the original
department, and it has enough info that even if the get a new clerk on
the other end, he only loses an hour or two instead of a day or two.

And in spite of the hassles, it's just plain *not* worth trying to sue,
because he'd have to travel *back* to East Podunk (or whereever they
picked him up) for the trial...

> I bet the actual error rate is over 50 percent.  Just go on 
> the web and look at the state of Maryland's sex offender 
> registry.  They state up front that they can't keep it up to 
> date.  They don't really know where these people live.  I 
> spoke to someone in that department, and they said that the 
> only way to find out accurate information about a particular 
> individual is to call and ask for an actual check - they go 
> out and find the individual in question.

Yeah. It's no better with the "private" databases the departments
assemble from the stuff they get off the "wire". 

> The culture and infrastructure for systems like these to be 
> near 100 percent accurate do not exist.

Well, some day, an "important" person will get hit *badly* by one, and
maybe get Congress to pass a law that will attempt to require more
checking of data.

OBTrav should be obvious. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:15:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:15:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B88@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <20425.012317.8s4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>  And
>> who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
>> crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or 
>> just those
>> detained by the police at some previous time?  What about 
>> those who have
>> already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going 
>> to be harassed
>> by the police.
>
> I would expect that the idea was to only inclued persistent
> shoplifters/vandals/muggers/car thieves etc
> And it is hardly and great difficulty to flag each record with an expiry
> date.

No, but in the real world, such databases *aren't* designed with any
such flag. Which bites many innocent people every year.

> So upon a criminal coming before the courts for the umpteenth time for
> such offences the court can order that their 'mugshot' be placed on the
> system for a specified length of time. If they stop offending then after
> that time they are removed from the database.

And if the wrong photo gets placed in the file, the innocent person
will have a fight to get it removed. If the database is shared with
*other* areas, they will have to fight in each and every place they
visit. 

And a private citizen can't *afford* that sort of fight. Which is why
such systems are a bad idea. When they screw up, the effects on the
innocent are *way* out of proportion.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:18:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:18:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <20425.011146.9J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]
>
>> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they' 
>> wanted to trial in 
>> the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras were linked 
>> to a database 
>> containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to 
>> alert the local 
>> police when a 'non-desirable' tried entering the city center 
>> (note; in 
>> England, shopping centers/malls can exclude people for 
>> illegal behviour, so 
>> this is not considered a violation of their rights).
>> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
>> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of 
>> 10,000 bodies 
>> would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals 
>> free to go about 
>> their crimes...
>
> Ummm, not quite...
>
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

No. 

The 4% error rate means that 4% of the people scanned will be
misidentied. So 4% of the people who don't have pictures in the
database would be mistakenly identifed as people in the database AND 4%
of the people scanned who *were* in the database would fail to be
identified.

Thing is, if there are only 100 people in the database, and 10,000
people scanned (and we will assume that the 100 in the database are
part of the total scanned) you get these results:

9,900 people not in database. 
4% false positives = 396

100 people in database
4% false negatives = 4

So, the end results are:

9504 correctly identified as not in database
 396 incorrectly identified as being in database
  96 correctly identified as being in database
   4 incorrectly identified as being in database.

Which means that out of 492 people "tagged", only 96 will be correct
IDs. That means that a bit over *80%* of those tagged will be incorrect
identifications. Which is a *totally* unacceptable error rate.

This is why they *don't* do generalized testing for things like AIDS.
The ratio of infected to uninfected is so *low* that the number of
false positives would *massively* overwhelm the true positives.

And the problem others were talking about is the entirely *independent*
problem of whether or not the folks correctly IDed as being in the
database are actually criminals. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC785BE.E6ACFF88@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CC884F5.17674.53C3CD@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 23:27, John Groth wrote:

> One of the things that annoyed me most about Twilight: 2000 (second
> edition) is that, according to the chargen rules, I did not exist. 
> According to T2K (2e), only Military Intelligence officers could perform
> interrogator duties; enlisted MI types were treated as equivalent to
> Support branch (i.e., mechanics and the like).  As an enlisted
> interrogator (MOS 97E4P) who currently has 18+ years of experience in
> the field, I was (understandably, I think) quite put out by this chargen
> rule, especially since very few MI commissioned officers in the US Army
> _ever_ learn how to interrogate prisoners of war.

As I was a grunt when I struck T2K 1e I didn't notice this, though I do 
remember being unimpressed by that on general principles. However T2k 
2e's insistence that military intelligence types take a -1 initiative 
rankled.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <20020424223740.A14385@4dv.net>
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500
Message-ID: <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 22:37, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
> >
> > Try being allergic to cig smoke.
> 
> That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
> <http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.

Yeah, right. Sure it doesn't. From what I've seen over the years just 
about anything is allergic to someone out there.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3CC8870B.29806.5BEAE4@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 9:09, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even farther with image
> intensifiers. Also, you might want not to leave much stuff around, which
> is quite hard if you have to remember collecting everything you smoke.

There's nothing quite like some smoker lighting up at night to give 
your position away. About the only way to hide all the light is to 
smoke in the sleeping bay of a full-overhead protected trench or 
bunker, with a blanket, sack or jecket over the enterance.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir
 we got trouble .
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500 <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> On 24 Apr 2002 at 22:37, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
> > >
> > > Try being allergic to cig smoke.
> >
> > That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
> > <http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.
>
> Yeah, right. Sure it doesn't. From what I've seen over the years just
> about anything is allergic to someone out there.
>

Now Rupert, The American Tobacco Institute has spent a lot of money
proving that cigarettes are good for you and you want us to believe on the
basis of your anecdotal evidence that they could cause someone a problem?
Get real buddy!


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20425.012810.2T3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in
> the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database? It
> is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken as one in 25
> of the members of the database will be misidentified... If there was only
> one picture in the database is there a 4% chance that any given person will
> be identified as it? Or much more likely, if there was only one person in
> the database 4% of the time the system would report 'no match' when
> analysing a picture of that individual.

Sorry, failure rates work *both* ways. There *will* be false matches,
not merely failures to make matches that should have been made.

Properly, they should have given the rates for false positives and for
false negatives. But the folks marketing such things don't want to
mention false positives. And without knowing the rates for both, as
well as the ratio of the total population to the number of people in
the database, you can't run numbers on this to properly evaluate it.

In another post, I did a rough evaluation with 4% error rate for both
positives and negatives. Note that for any given false positive rate,
the *number* of errors grows in direct proprtion to the size of the
population. If you scan twice as many people you get twice as many
errors. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:18:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:18:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <3CC7743B.26719.1EA397@localhost>
Message-ID: <20425.013434.5F0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 24 Apr 2002 at 10:58, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
>> Tod Glenn says
>> <snip about the "smart" camera system>
>> 
>> The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
>> the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
>> Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
>> to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
>> serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
>> incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
>> be.
>
> How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
> least keep the false positive rate down.

You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
have to be present at the trial *there*. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:21:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:21:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <20020425074906.B11272@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20425.015908.4k0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
>> of the period.
>
> Oops, it's the other way around :)
>
> (2 pi / T)^2 = G M / R^3
> so T^2 = k R^3, where k = (2 pi)^2 / (G M)

Tell the folks who printed the stronomy Quick Study reference card I
checked it on!

Aha! The text has it right, the formula below it has it wrong!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:24:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:24:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250924020.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20425.013633.5Q9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

That's better than the cartoon I have where an obvious Soviet guard
type is asking "Why are your papers in order?"

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:27:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:27:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Question on planetary orbits
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424234029.00ab4ef0@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <20425.033231.2x1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
>  >of the period.
>
> Keplers third law is that the square of the period is proportional to the 
> cube of the distance.

Blasted reference I was using had the law right in the text, but had
the exponents swapped in the formula. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:30:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:30:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  All of the above is interesting. But not my main Traveller theme part.
> For example <composing a reply to a prior msg with this topic> The entire
> premise above is dealing with the measurements of the micro$haft style of
> disks and formatting.

Actually, it's the method ised by floppy *and* hard disk controllers
for just about everything. GCR and all the rest of that was only used
by Apple and Commodore. Everybody else used the single chip FDC chips
that came out starting in 1977. And the similarly integrated HDC setups
that came out later.

The "low level" formatting is standard across just about all the
computer industry. The only variables are things like sector size and
number of sectors per track.

Dig up a spec sheet for any floppy controller chip and you'll see the
same info as to the things that can be varied. 

MS is using a format set by IBM and the "low level" stuff goes backk to
the original *mainframe* floppy disks (and hard drives) developed in
the 1960s.

I've got the manuals for an old mainframe hard drive, and the
controller level formatting options aren't that different from what
modern hard and floppy drives use. 

The Commodore setup really *is* an oddbal and *very* minority format.

> i use Commodore exclusively. First we measure in
> blocks 4 = 1kb. The single sided drives read thes disk at 664 C= blocks.

No, at the *hardware* level, it's still sectors and tracks. You just
have thungs like variable numbers of sectors per track, based on how
close to the cebter of the disk you are (I went into a lot of this with
a friend who had a VIC 20 and later a C-64 when we were trying to see
if we could reas each other's disks somehow).

Those "blocks" are equivalent to "clusters" on PC drives. And they are
a product of the OS, not the hardware. If you check into the low level
details, you'll find that the blocks are part of the *logical*
formatting (how the OS groups stuff and addresses it) not the
*physical* formatting (which is the sectors and tracks, encoded upon
the media). 

*If* Commodore had used FM and MFM encoding on the disks, rather than
GCR (basicly a different way of modulating the signal that represents
the bitstream on the media), then all it'd take to read a C-64 disk on
a PC would be some fancy software. 

As it is, it's like trying to read a Beta tape on a VHS machine. Even
if you feed the tape past the heads, the signal format is wrong. The
data encoded on the tapes is the *same* (NTSC video). 

But once you extract the bitstream, the floppy controller references
that as sectors and tracks. On a PC, we have access at that level. With
a 1541, the CPU in the 1541 has access at that level. You only have
access at the OS level (blocks, files etc) unless you can change the
code being run by the CPU in the drive.

>  Now then all tat said. We have talked about some converting things. using
> what I know which is a samttering of the techy stuff for the Commodore
> world. i have tools that allow translation on my system. Allowing me to
> translate from Pet to Ascii and back again. So that part is covered for
> text. I also have tools that allow scaling of JPGs and GIFs. These at
> videocam. That allow for my screen size. I have tools to pas along to the
> windoze and Amiga users that allow the text translation for my preferred
> DT <Desk Top> system Geos. Even the ability to make .D64 image files for
> the emulator users.

Again, you are conflating a bunch of *independent* things:

1. media type/encoding (ie what the data is stored on and how the bits
   are encoded onto the media)
   
   Examples: holes punched in paper tape, holes punched in any of
   several types of punch card, bits coded onto magnetic tape in any of
   several ways, bits on floppy disks in GCR/FM/MFM. Bits on Had drives
   in FM/MFM/RLL/ERLL

2. Media formatting (tracks, sectors, etc)

   Examples: tapes formatted with Unit, record, block, etc marks
   Disks formatted into sectors, tracks, cylinders

3. OS formatting (files, directories, etc)

   Examples: different directory & file structures in TRS-DOS (at least
   5 versions I know of that are incompatible with each other), MS-DOS,
   Mac, Apple II (at least 2 OSes), CP/M, Unix, etc

4. File formatting (how the bits and bytes inside the file represent
   the data)

   Examples: Wordstar, WordPerfect, Scripsit, MS Word, PerfectWriter
   All word processors, all encoding text with formatting
   instructions, all available for MS-DOS, all using different
   formats.

5. output device & formatting (how the data is presented to the user)
   
   Examples: fixed pitch printer, no backspace/overstrike.
             fixed pitch printer with backspace/overstrike
             proportional font printer
             loadable font printer
             "graphics" printer (ie anything that prints stuff as a
               "image fed by the computer)
   All hardcopy output devices, with different sorts of inputs and
   different output capabilities.
    

I'm saying that for the most part level 4 will be uniform. Everybody
will use or be able to translate to/from the standard Imperial file
formats.

The limits will be most a case of not being able to handle some formats
because your equipment isn't up to it.

Probably levels of difficult:

fixed pitch text in local alphabet
fixed pitch text in multiple alphabets
formatted text in local alphabets
formatted text in multiple alphabets

Still images (ie low res pixel graphics)
still images (fax/wirephoto)
still images (photos)

Audio (with various levels as bit rate and mono/stereo are added)

Video

Holo

>  OK what I am looking at on this topic is the same type of things in tols
> and utils for converting different standards and platforms in the 3I.
> Based and projecting from the exisitng styles we have now. Putting that
> into the CT game.

Depends on whether you are receiving a *signal* or media. 

If you are receiving media, you need a reader and one or more levels of
concerter to get the files out. Once you have the files, it's fairly
simple to have software take it the rest of the way. 

My list above dealt (mostly) with media.

If you have a signal, the levels are similar but different. 

Look up the OSI model for one way to break that sort of thing down.

The important thing to realize is that at *any* level of a properly
designed system, you can swap the stuff that deal with that level out
and replace it with something that handles it differently, and not
affect things much.

In fact, the C-64 is better suited demonstrating that than most
systems. Compare the way you read/write from a tape, a 1541, the
IEEE-488 based Commodore business systems drive that uses the same
floppies and format as the 1541, a hard drive etc.

As I recall, for reading/writing a *file* all you'd change is the unit
number or some such. 

So the problems faced by the players be a matter of which levels things
are incompatible at.

Wrong media (cassette instead of disk? Wrong size disk?)

Wrong encoding (GCR vs MFM or the like. Or 5 channel versus 8-channel
paper tape)

Wrong formatting (wrong size sectors? Wrong number of sector, tracks,
whatever) 

Wrong OS? (A PC formatted floppy written by OS/2 isn't much use with Windows)

Wrong file format (It's in Wordstar, they have wordPerfect)

Or a combination of the above if you are really feeling evil.

And to be *supremely* evil, when the get the data, it may be in the
wrong language. Or be a picture taken by a species that has a different
spectral sensitivity (ie, we see red to vilet. They see short IR to
Blue. Or Orange to near UV) 

That last is fun if you have a decent graphics program or if you
understand how BMPs or other non-compressed image formats store data.
Removing the color(s) they don't see is fairly easy if you are a
programmer geek. Shifting the colors is a bit harder. *Adding* the
color they don't see is harder.

Ever try recognizing something from a color IR picture? <eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
References: <20020425052154.B00C227A9C@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>

Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
very, very large capital ships?

I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
spinal mounts.

I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
sharing.

By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

Thanks, all.

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir  we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC898A7.17942.A0B903@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 7:05, alan spik wrote:

> Now Rupert, The American Tobacco Institute has spent a lot of money
> proving that cigarettes are good for you and you want us to believe on the
> basis of your anecdotal evidence that they could cause someone a problem?
> Get real buddy!

Rule #1: Follow the money.

I have no monetary interest in getting people to stop smoking, they 
have lots of interest in getting as many people smoking as much tobacco 
as possible.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:03:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:03:58 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC898A8.8362.A0BA58@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 6:36, David Smart wrote:

> Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> very, very large capital ships?
> 
> I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
> spinal mounts.
> 
> I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
> sharing.
> 
> By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
> TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

Hmm. Wasn't there an Auri-Tech research vessel around that would fill 
the bill?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:07:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:07:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <20425.013434.5F0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <3CC7743B.26719.1EA397@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC898A7.24874.A0B7D7@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 1:34, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
> > least keep the false positive rate down.
> 
> You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
> entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
> take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
> have to be present at the trial *there*. 

Well sue the originating organisation. Then sue 'em for libel in that 
they spread false infermation about you.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
Message-ID: <F1783GykBbKP7Ie8tlM000034bd@hotmail.com>

From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>

     "heres the second in my series of conversions"


Mr. Cat,

     Bravo, sir!  Well done!  Your conversions have been superb, hence the 
near total lack of comment about them on the List!
     Please enjoy the TML's Black Hole of Quality.  Could you drop the rest 
of us a postcard and let us know what that place is like?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S.  Would any of the more artistically inclined members of the List care 
to design a "TML Black Hole of Quality" medallion?  I thinking something the 
size of a gaudy soup plate on a crepe paper ribbon.  Hmmm, perhaps a simple 
lapel pin would be more appropriate...


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (silverberg)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Spacedoc v1.2 or later
Message-ID: <000801c1ec58$66b74ad0$720b1ed4@tyrell001>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I am looking for the above program or similar. Unfortunately all the
links I have found so far are obsolete. Can any one help me find this
program?
 
Many Thanks
 
Regards
 
Silverberg
 
 

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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font-family:Arial'>I am looking for the above program or similar. =
Unfortunately
all the links I have found so far are obsolete. Can any one help me find =
this
program?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1EC60.C87BB2D0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <F1783GykBbKP7Ie8tlM000034bd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEHCDMAA.tml@downport.com>

The new diet craze! Put on a black hole lapel pin and everyone will think
you're eating when you aren't getting a single bite!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade

> P.S.  Would any of the more artistically inclined members of the
> List care
> to design a "TML Black Hole of Quality" medallion?  I thinking
> something the
> size of a gaudy soup plate on a crepe paper ribbon.  Hmmm,
> perhaps a simple
> lapel pin would be more appropriate...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22715@USCHM203>

>I was at Benning when that happened. The common reaction was "who cares" 
>and the clubs on VD Drive never bothered to check IDs.

You were lucky. The Marines were a lot stricter. And at about the same time
they pretty much tore down Court Street, which was where all the good (or
bad if you were an MP)bars were.
So you had about 10,000 or young Marines who were able to enjoy a few beers
one weekend, and not able to the next. Fights and disciplinary violations
actually increased.
I agree that there are situations where smoking is a bad idea, but a blanket
ban on smoking would do more harm than good, in my opinion. 99% of
servicemen are not going to be in a position where it matters.

>Having addicts in the trenches does not aid 
in the mission.

I don't think jonesing for a cigarette is the same as having a heroin
withdrawal, and aside from VC with good noses in very specific
circumstances, I fail to see how smoking has any effect on combat
effectiveness. Yes, it reduces lung capacity and endurance, but those 50% +
smokers in my unit could still run six miles the same as the non-smokers.
Obviously, common sense would preclude smoking on opreations where stealth
was required. There doesn't need to be any sweeping edict affecting the
entire Army.

For the record, there were periods in the field where no smoking was allowed
for weeks. There was grumbling, but no one went into a disabling nicotine
fit.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <B8ED52C0.5887D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/25/02 1:56 AM, Frank Pitt at frankie@mundens.gen.nz wrote:

> 
> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.

Austrian Corporal. And I would call it a coup when you are elected to ofice
by popular vote.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F235nUTBnxARhnHcWhl00004133@hotmail.com>

>From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>
>Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
>very, very large capital ships?

Half a dozen or so and more hiding in my backpocket (i.e. on my HD).

>I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
>spinal mounts.

Is a 406 Gj Meson gun fitted to a 900'000 dt Dreadnough enough? If not I 
have a 2 Mdt design on my hardrive (but that is streching things a bit).

>I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
>sharing.

All you can eat at Dimash Starships:
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/starships.html

>By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
>TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

Spreadsheets availible at request for most designs.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <019901c1ec5f$4ae870c0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 4:56 AM
Subject: RE: [TML] RE: Bayonets


> Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> > Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are
> > by officers in the Captain to Colonel range, with
> > the next group being those run by Generals, though
> > these are quite often one General  replacing another
> > and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have
> > to do more reading, methinks.
>
> You will, a coup in one of the West Inddian isles (Grenada?) was
> led by a Corporal, IIRC
>
> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.
>
> Frankie
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:46:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:46:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F251utSgcOrBLSAQV6u0000a9dd@hotmail.com>

I don't know if this message showed up correctly so I'm reposting it (Davied 
Smart didn't see it on the digest). My applogies if you have allready seen 
it.

------------

>Mr. Holmstrm,
>
>I'm a member of the TML and I recently ran across an old email you sent out 
>proposing rules for the building of chem-det lasers using Bruce Macintosh's 
>"MCS" starship combat rules.
>
>If you're still playing Traveller and it isn't an imposition on you, could 
>you tell me if you ever finished a final draft of your rules?

Ohh, I'm still playing Traveller/reading the TML. The short answer to
your question is "sort of yes" but the long answer is more interesting.
I tried to pick apart the NukeDet tables in FFS and the warhead table
in MCS and reverse engineer the Frag and ChemDet warheads using MCS and
FFS. The major problems are that the ChemDet and Frag warheads mentioned in 
MCS might be handwaved and lacks stats (mass/vol/price). More details on 
NukeDets in FFS1/2 would also help. The discussion below assumes that the 
reader knows FFS and MCS. If I'm unclear somewhere just yell.

Most of my argument uses this table from MCS:
>Type                    Pen:Damage     Defence Nuclear Det-Laser            
>                                            TL15    19:13           -7
>                TL13    18:12           -7
>                TL10    17:11           -7
>Chemical Det-Laser-13   13:10           -6
>Fragmentation KKMSIM-10 10:14           -3

If the ChemDets are supposed to have a PEN calue of 13 this means that it 
must have a FFS2 DV of at least 21 (assuming PEN = 10*DAM => MCS DAM 7). 
This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking about a 
X-ray laser to it needs to be at least TL13. MCS states that NukeDets has a 
penetration value of 20 times the FFS2 damage value (instead of the usual 
PEN = 10xDAM). Further it states that the warhead (as a whole) has twice the 
damage compared to the listed damage (per beam) in FFS2. This can be used to 
determine the yield of the NukeDets used in the MCS missile table. Note that 
all the warheads mass around 500 kg.

TL     Yield    Damage  Wt       Vol
10     100 kt    80     540 kg   270 l
13     200 kt    94     500 kg   250 l
15     500 kt   113     500 kg   250 l

From the PD modifiers in MCS I drew the conclusion that ChemDets detonate 
closer to their target than DetNukes and that Frags detonates even closer. 
At shorter distances the missile will be easier to hit but this works both 
ways. Every -1 on defence makes the missile twice as hard to hit (based on 
PD RoF modifiers).

Warhead      Eff.
NukeDet       1
ChemDet       2
Frag         16

To bring the damage of the ChemDet warhead up to DAM 10 we need to hit the 
target 3 times (compared with 2 for NukeDets)using 40Mj laser pulses. Since 
the ChemDet detonates at a more efficient distance we only have to use 67% 
as many lasing rods as on a NukeDet.

Here is where we run out of information. How many lasing rods are there in a 
NukeDet? Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow 
up) or something more powerful (that does)? Can a lasing rod (as used in 
NukeDets) also be used with chemicals? What is the cost/weight/volume of the 
lasing rod and tracking telescope?


There are two ways to handle this.

1. Assume that all warheads in the MCS missile list are 500 kg/250 l. The 
cost of the ChemDet warhead is anybody's guess but say 100 kCr. The ChemDet 
with PEN13 and DAM10 will represent the baseline warhead and can be modified 
as follows.

Modify weight and volume based on Tech Level.

TL  Wt and Vol mod
13   1.00
16   0.67

By changing the power and number of the lasing rods different warheads can 
be constructed. Change the PEN and DAM values and then apply the weight, 
volume and price modifiers. Each extra point can be added to either DAM or 
PEN but not to both.  Points can also be transferred (e.g. PEN+1/DAM-1) at 
no cost.

Bonus*   Wt, Vol and Price mod
+1          1.5  (1.46)
+2          2.0  (2.15)
+3          3.0  (3.16)
+4          4.5  (4.65)
+5          7.0  (6.81)
+6         10.0  (10.0)
For negative modifiers divide instead.

Examples

A TL11 ChemDet warhead (-2).
Pen = 13 - 1 = 12.
Dam = 10 - 1 = 9.
Wt = 500 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 500 kg.
Vol = 250 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 250 l.
Price = 100 / 2.0 = 50 kCr.

A TL13 Heavy ChemDet Warhead (+3).
Pen = 13 + 2 = 15.
Dam = 10 + 1 = 11.
Wt = 500 * 3.0 = 1500 kg.
Vol = 500 * 3.0 = 750 l.
Price = 100 * 3.0 = 300 kCr.


A +3 ChemDet warhead and a ring of imperial intervention is all a traveller 
needs. ;) The modifiers are based on the 6*log10 damage scale of MCS and the 
Chemical Lasing Cartridge efficiency table. I believe this gives reasonable 
numbers but one might want to differentiate the TL table a bit.


2. Running the numbers of a 500 kg warhead using standard components.

A 40Mj 10 cm X-ray focal array with 10'000 km effective range at TL13.
Focal area  : 0.007854 m2.
Focal vol   : 0.000314 m3.
Focal mass  : 0.314 kg.
Focal price : 31.4 Cr.

Input energy  : 61.54 Mj.
Cartridge wt  : 30.77 kg.
Cartridge vol : 3.127 l.
I can't find the listed price for CLC cartridges in FFS2 so I use FFS1 
figures instead.
Cartridge price : 1850 Cr.

The weight limitation allows 16 cartridges to be fitted.
Warhead Wt    : 497.3 kg.
Warhead Vol   : 55.06 l.
Warhead Price : 30 kCr.

The result a very cheap and compact warhead but I doubt that 16 cartridges 
are enough since a NukeDet probably has more than 24 lasing rods. Building 
the thing with TL15 will allow for 21 cartridges and TL16 gets us 35 (mainly 
due to better cartridges). To be completely legal the warhead would need a 
beampointer which adds ~1000 kg at TL13. With a beampointer it is hard to 
see how any of the beams could miss at all.

Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a lot. 
TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge? Double this?


Ideas/Comments are welcomed.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>

From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>

     "I've done this with a Vargar steward on my groups ship. Keeping her in 
fresh meat is a real challenge at points. Especially since she insists on 
sharing it all with the passengers and crew."


Sir,

     Nice touch!  A steward with odd culinary ideas sounds great.  Have the 
PCs loathe the meals she prepares BUT she also lures lots of high passengers 
aboard with the same.  The PCs Beowulf could get a rep for catering to a 
certain type of traveller; they pay well and are just annoying enough to 
make the PCs batty.

     "Hadn't really thought of the ingredient angle.  Thanks Larsen."

     Your very welcome.  Have your PCs set aside a low berth for the Vargr 
steward's "supplies"?  Or rigged up a similar device in the hold or 
engineering?  How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy 
stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other supplies 
and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require PRECISE 
enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the constant risk 
of possible allergens from all those plants wafting their way through the 
ventilation system...


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:57:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:57:05 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
Message-ID: <F182WZbQLbzjADMBLxt00008700@hotmail.com>

John Groth <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
> > On 23 Apr 2002 at 13:04, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >
> > > The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST
> > > series is that everyone is an officer.
> >
> > That didn't bother me in the slightest, seeing as there were often
> > engineering officers doing what we'd have ratings employed at.
> > Obviously the later Star Trek period saw a lot of 'job inflation' in
> > the Federation. Probably some bureaucrat thought it'd help morale or
> > recruitment if everyone in Starfleet got to be an officer.
>
>I suspect that the rank inflation of the ST universe (and many other
>fictional universes) has more to do with the observation that Robert
>Heinlein (adroitly bringing the thread back to its title) made in _Job:
>A Comedy of Justice_ that civilians automatically seem to equate
>themselves with officers, regardless of the actual position the
>civilians in question hold in the employment and/or social hierarchy.

This may not be accurate, as I'm drawing on secondary sources
(FASA's Star Trek RPG) for this...

Starfleet has a whole rack of Enlisted and NCO ranks, and
people of these ranks make up the majority of the organization.

We, the viewers, keep seeing special and unusual cases.
For example, _USS Enterprise_ (from the old series) was one
of only twelve Constitution-class cruisers, and such ships
were the most prestigious ships in Galaxy Exploration Command,
which was the most prestigious division of Starfleet.  The
crews of these special ships were officers from Captain
down to bottle-washer.

Lesser ships in the Galaxy Exploration Command would have
some enlisted personnel in their crews, and ships in the less
prestigious commands (such as the Merchant Marine or
Colonial Operations Command) would have a more traditional
enlisted to officers ratio.

As I said, this is material from a secondary source, so it
may be inaccurate.  It may even be a whole-cloth creation
of the game designers, rather than a report of the actual
organization of Gene Rodenberry's Starfleet.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <F24sxyWSBuhOF3Gc76o0000388d@hotmail.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

     "I once ran an Aftermath campaign where the players were kept busy 
looking for ingredients for an omelet by a deranged gourmand in return for 
some penicillin."


Mr. Glenn,

     Ooooh, nasty, I like it!
     As a GM, I loved the "we need a nail" trick; getting the PCs to WANT to 
dance to your tune through the use of scavenger hunts.  I never really ran 
any high powered campaigns, so my PCs never needed a lefthanded frommitz 
board in order to turn back the Zho invasion.  Instead, they chased about 
after will o' the wisps as a way of making, or saving, some fast credits.
     A multi-jump high passenger, and her entourage, who will require a 
glass of tomato juice, a nobble steak, 90% humidity in her stateroom, a 
large panetella, and several rounds of whist EACH AND EVERY day while aboard 
really whipsaws the PCs.  They'll slaver over the credits they could make 
and chase around like goofs after the incidentals they'll need to bring it 
off.  That gives the GM oodles of ways to introduce new plots, new NPCs, new 
obstacles, new everything into the campaign.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:05:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:05:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <B8ED52C0.5887D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8ED5AC3.58886%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/25/02 6:29 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> on 4/25/02 1:56 AM, Frank Pitt at frankie@mundens.gen.nz wrote:
> 
>> 
>> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
>> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.
> 
> Austrian Corporal. And I would call it a coup when you are elected to ofice
> by popular vote.
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.


Sorry.  I WOULDN'T call is a coup....
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <20020425052152.7692927A9A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004901c1ec65$0d704c80$7f5d8690@computer>

> From: Lord Ronin from Q-Link 
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?
> 
>  The incorrect response is "Sorry Man I've only got a pipe."

<chuckle>

A _very_ incorrect response.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>; from babyduck@mindspring.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 07:05:51AM -0400
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost> <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020425084838.A15956@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 07:05:51AM -0400, alan spik wrote:
> 
> Now Rupert, The American Tobacco Institute has spent a lot of money
> proving that cigarettes are good for you and you want us to believe on the
> basis of your anecdotal evidence that they could cause someone a problem?
> Get real buddy!

The site I referenced was the usual medical smoking is EEEVIL sort of
claptrap, but even it admitted that smoke is not an allergen, but can
exacerbate _other_ allergies, and asthma.  As I noted.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink
I feel ashamed.  Then I look into the glass and think about
the workers in the brewery and all of their hopes and
dreams.  If I didn't drink this beer, they might be out of
work and their dreams would be shattered.  Then I say to
myself, `It is better that I drink this beer and let their
dreams come true than be selfish and worry about my liver.'
                                             --Unattributed

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 09:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr 25 08:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Judder-drive?
Message-ID: <DAV22gADGFXpWvFmaWn0000574a@hotmail.com>

Did this one die on the vine?

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns9999242

19:00 06 December 00

Full text follows:


A juddering magnet has inspired a scientist at the US Department of Energy
to investigate a bizarre new way of propelling a spacecraft.

The idea for a "judder-drive" struck David Goodwin when he noticed that
powerful, cryogenically-cooled superconducting magnets often jolt in one
direction for a centimetre or two when you first turn them on.

"If you have something metal in the magnetic field as it is forming, you see
the magnet physically shift," says Goodwin, who works at the Office of High
Energy and Nuclear Physics in Germantown, Maryland.

Superconducting magnets are cooled to such a low temperature that they have
no electrical resistance. Goodwin's magnets were made by taking
superconducting wires of niobium-tin alloy and twisting the strands into a
cable. The cables were then coated with an insulator and wound into a coil.
"The coil's then put into a cylindrical casing called a cryostat that's
filled with liquid helium," says Goodwin. The liquid helium cools the wire
coil to -269 C, when they become superconducting.

Goodwin says the metal objects create the judder effect by inducing a "brief
asymmetry in the magnetic field" as it is set up when the magnet is turned
on. This initial disturbance of the magnetic field, he says, creates a
repulsive force on the magnet and pushes it away.

But the force produced in one jolt is very low, Goodwin says, so you would
need to turn the magnet on and off with ultrafast switches, making a fast
stream of jolts. "We've got switches now that can work at high voltages at
400,000 times a second," he says. "If you could use one of these switches to
rapidly switch the magnet on and off, you might get some propulsion out of
it."

A colleague of Goodwin's at Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York is
now modelling the magnetic field of superconducting magnets to work out how
best to arrange a metallic disc in the magnetic field to produce the biggest
jolt. But Goodwin admits the judder drive might be going nowhere fast. "It's
very speculative. We don't know if it'll work," he says.

Marc Millis, who heads NASA's breakthrough propulsion physics project at the
NASA Glenn Research Center at Lewis Field in Cleveland, Ohio, has invited
Goodwin to present his idea at a propulsion conference in July next year.

The crucial thing, says Millis, is whether Goodwin's magnet would produce
any net motion at all - it might just sit there and vibrate. "It's a
definite possibility that any forces arising from Goodwin's concept will
only act within the components of the device itself, resulting in no net
force," he says. "There are a lot of unresolved physics issues to address."

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <3CC82CB1.6050208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Matthew Bond wrote:

> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in
> the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database? It
> is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken as one in 25
> of the members of the database will be misidentified... 

Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here, 
comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.

You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via 
your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of 
false positives and false negatives.

That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously, 
whihc means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched 
erroneously.

If they seriously start arresting, harassing, and otherwise 
incoveniencing people based on this system those shop owners are going 
to lose a lot more business that they would have ever lost by letting 
known shoplifters into their stores.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . .
 yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <20020424223740.A14385@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204250919130.24595-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
> >
> > Try being allergic to cig smoke.
> 
> That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
> <http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.
> 
> Perhaps you're slightly asthmatic, or have other allergies which smoke
> in generl triggers?

Tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens, but many of the things that
tobacco is treated with are allergenic.

I used to live in Kentucky where much of the world's tobacco is grown.  I
would become very ill every year during the spraying season.  You are
smoking, when you smoke cigarettes, all of the pesticides and other
chemicals.  I am not allergic to tobacco, but I have allergic reactions
that are very real to most cigarettes and an even more severe reaction to
the stale ashes of cigarettes.

Robert, you smoke good tobacco. I believe you smoke cigars or a pipe.  I
assure you cigarettes are very different.

Even the cloves I like to smoke once or twice a year cause me some
problems, which is probably why I never got addicted-- I couldn't ever
smoke more than one or two and couldn't do it multiple days in a row.

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:27:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:27:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . .
 yessir we got trouble .
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500 <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC82DFF.50605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Yeah, right. Sure it doesn't. From what I've seen over the years just 
> about anything is allergic to someone out there.
> 

<cringe> People are 'allergic', things are 'allergenic' to people...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <019901c1ec5f$4ae870c0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020425093636.00a0fec0@mindspring.com>

At 09:44 AM 4/25/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
>wars

And 0 for 2 in finishing them...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:40:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:40:11 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019752592.311.ajackson@ping>

David Smart writes:
> Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> very, very large capital ships?

Most of the designs I've seen floating about have been TL 15, I'm not sure you
can build a huge TL 12 capital ship.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:44:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:44:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . .yessir we got trouble .
Message-ID: <200204251643.EZD03454@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
><cringe> People are 'allergic', things are 'allergenic' to 
>people...
>

More to the point - it is possible for a substance to be an 
irritant, with severe effects, and yet provoke no allergic 
response.  Many of the gaseous constituents of tobacco smoke 
probably fall into this category.

Also, some chemicals can make you more sensitive to other 
irritants and allergens.  Toluene di-isocyanate, a popular 
industrial solvent, is famous for turning people into 
permanent asthmatics.

The person at the most risk, however, is probably the 
smoker.  Second hand smoke carries risks, and is an irritant, 
to be sure.  But of all of the things in the cigarette, two 
stand out.  Carbon monoxide is inhaled in sufficient 
quantities to bind hemoglobin for long periods of time.  And 
nicotine is a poison.  Nicotine, as purchased from a plant 
care store, or concentrated from tobacco, is a lethal agent 
if spilled on the skin.  And the smoker is breathing both of 
these agents in concentrations far higher than the person 
receiving the smoke second-hand.

In real life, it's not a healthy thing to be doing to 
yourself, or the others around you.  But, like other risk-
taking that we engage in, it's something that a fair number 
of people accept.  It is far more dangerous to drive your car 
to work everyday.  It is far more dangerous to allow yourself 
to become overweight, or to constantly eat fatty foods.

I am polite enough not to smoke in the presence of people I 
know will be irritated by it.  I was able to stop smoking at 
will in the field, and it never affected my ability to run or 
yomp.  

ObTrav:  IMTU It's a fantastic world of the future - they 
call it tobacco, but centuries of genetic engineering and 
chemistry have produced a product which is largely harmless 
(still working on that carbon monoxide).  Some people might 
find it an irritating habit.  And tactically, it's still a 
bad idea.  Other worlds have come up with other things to 
smoke as well.

As evidenced by "stuff on a stick" at the Regina starport, 
nothing at all has been done about fatty foods.  There are 
plenty of nachos, ding dongs, and powdered sugar donuts in 
the Far Future.
________________
There's a man who leads a life of danger
To everyone he meets he stays a stranger
With every move he makes another chance he takes 
Odds are he won't live to see tomorrow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <OF5C76E27C.BD421F78-ON85256BA6.005BCA1B@pheaa.org>






>>Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
>>wars

>And 0 for 2 in finishing them...

I don't believe Germany actually started WWI. if i remember correctly a
Serbian shot the Arch Duke this got Austria into a war then because of the
way the treaties were set up back then it was a domino effect pulling in
the other countries.

However by the time the war was over Germany had been blamed for WWI.
because they where blamed they were forced to pay reparations and
militarily eviscerated. this cause a lot of Germans to lose pride in being
German. Hitler used this to his advantage. he gave them pride again and so
they followed him.

of course this is a very very small aspect of the whole thing that i don't
have time to go into right now. i love WW2 history and took several courses
on it in both high school and college. and if given the chance could talk
about it all day 8P

anyway

Hasta

Bill









From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 11:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr 25 10:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>

From another list.  Not confirmed by me.

< Begin quote >
A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a plan
to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," Williams said in
a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, Ala.,
resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science from
the
University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in business
management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super Market at
Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
< End quote >

Opinions?

ObTrav: How about a planet that imposes a 100% sales tax on off-worlders.
And don't forget departure taxes...

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 11:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 10:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <200204251751.g3PHpXP22829@premier1.premier.net>

> David Smart writes:
> > Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> > very, very large capital ships?
> 
> Most of the designs I've seen floating about have been TL 15, I'm not sure you
> can build a huge TL 12 capital ship.

The largest TL-12 warship I designed is the 160,000 dton _Agincourt_-class.  
Given that Doug Berry's _Coronation_-class (which was used in butchered form in 
_Imperial Squadrons_) was 90,000 dtons, I would consider _Agincourt_ as 
probably a Late M:0 design.

Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my designs for 
_Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).  Note that all three 
of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry NPAW spinal mounts; I've never 
been a big fan of meson guns.  Besides, there are enough other designers who 
_are_ fond of meson guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that 
ecological niche.

I can repost any or all of these designs when I get home this
evening.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>




<snip>
< Begin quote >
A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
plan
to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
</snip>
<snip>
Opinions?
</snip>

Well if it is true then it makes me ashamed to be from Alabama. however
this guy being from Huntsville wanting to bolster NASA money is not
surprising. Huntsville is a huge NASA area. lot of research goes on there.

this is assuming this is true.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:05:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204251804.g3PI4bP24553@premier1.premier.net>

 
> >>Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
> >>wars
> 
> >And 0 for 2 in finishing them...
> 
> I don't believe Germany actually started WWI. if i remember correctly a
> Serbian shot the Arch Duke this got Austria into a war then because of the
> way the treaties were set up back then it was a domino effect pulling in
> the other countries.

And that was the point.  Austria-Hungary used Archduke Dul^h^h^h Ferdinand's 
assassination as a pretext to destroy Serbia, thus kicking off WWI.  Then, an 
_Austrian_ corporal led Germany into beginning WWII.

<<snip>>

ObTrav:  A third Alternate Imperium (along with the GTU and Mr. Whipsnade's 
Wounded Colossus) could begin with the same event (Dulinor's death) as the 
GTU.  However, in the Guns of August TU, Dulinor's assassins have links to an 
extra-Imperial power [EIP] (your choice) [my suggestion would be a polity in 
the Vargr Extents (the closest thing to the Balkans in the TU, IMHO)].  The 3I 
decides to use this as a _casus belli_ to destroy said EIP.  Unfortunately, 
other EIPs feel threatened by the upsetting of the balance of power and declare 
war on the 3I.  Still other EIPs then ally with the 3I, thus kicking off a 
general
war.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:09:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:09:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>; from texasredshift@hotmail.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:42:03PM -0500
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020425120658.A16347@4dv.net>

As ideas go, it's really not all that bad.  1% is a bit steep, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd' - Ian Lamb, age 3.5

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:13:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:13:09 2002
Subject: [TML] whoops, heres the ship
Message-ID: <3CC800B8.19293.16BC72@localhost>

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--Message-Boundary-3736--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:16:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:16:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
Message-ID: <3CC80086.8268.15FA7B@localhost>

ok, heres something a little less subtle

its a conversion of the old FASA design, which replaces the 50 ton missile bay with 2 
triple salvo missile racks, which trade rate of fire for magazine capacity, but allow the 
chameleon to throw 60 missile salvoes. 

on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles in GT are 
stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? its never made any sense not 
to give them a backup homing capability, and or short range missiles for counter 
missile or anti fighter capabilities?





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:21:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:21:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
> plan
> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
> to "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"

Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want to help make
those dreams come true.

/Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 19/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:24:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:24:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Texas Redshift wrote:
>>From another list.  Not confirmed by me.

> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," 

Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You 
cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the 
First Amendment, with ample precedent.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:28:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:28:11 2002
Subject: [TML] whoops, heres the ship
In-Reply-To: <3CC800B8.19293.16BC72@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019758681.1367.ajackson@ping>

Aiii!  Think you can convinced your mailer not to base64 encode your html?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>

At 07:13 PM 4/25/02 +0100, Andy Brick wrote:
> > A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
> > plan
> > to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
> > Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> > proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> > space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> > Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
> > to "space,
> > space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
>Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want to help make
>those dreams come true.

Follow it with a 1% tax on art books, art supplies, and the sale of art 
(records, tapes, movie tickets, paintings, etc.) to fund federal art projects.

A 1% tax on school books and other educational material to go the Education 
Department.
etc.,etc., etc.

The 1% tax on porn would go straight to the Clinton Library and Slush Fund....

Ob-trav: Oh any number of a fun ways to part your players from their hard 
(or is that ill) earned credits.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <3CC80086.8268.15FA7B@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019759803.54.ajackson@ping>

shadowcat writes:

 
> on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles in GT
> are  stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? its never
> made any sense not  to give them a backup homing capability, and or short
> range missiles for counter  missile or anti fighter capabilities?

It's an artifact of the design system; sensors with useful combat range wind up
being extremely expensive.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:41:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:41:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net>

At 11:17 AM 4/25/02 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Texas Redshift wrote:
>> From another list.  Not confirmed by me.
>>Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
>>proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
>>space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
>>Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
>>space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
>Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You 
>cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the 
>First Amendment, with ample precedent.

Oh, like funking US Constitution 101 every kept anybody out of office...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020425.114504.-189505.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:56:49 +1200 "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> > Well, I hate to butt in here, but I'm a prime
> > example of the above conversation.
> >
> > I'm disabled as you all know, pulling in roughly
> > $17.5k via S.S. and my disability pension.
> 
> Just to show that "tolerable" is definitely relative:
> 
> However, outside of a few high cost areas lke New York city and
> the Silcon Valley environs, the cost of living in New Zealand is
> not appreciably lower than that in the US (at least according to
> my sister who has recently returned from  the US), so what (you
> seem to be implying) constitutes hardship for you, would be
> considered moderately well to do in New Zealand.
> 
> Of course, I'm sure someone from Russia could point out they
> could live like a king on 17.5K USD p.a.
> <grin>
> 
> Frankie

Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
To rent a 1 bedroom house here in Stockton it's $1,000 a month minimum,
to buy $125,000 minimum. For a resonably nice 2 bedroom place in a nice
area expect to start at $250,000. This is typical throughout all the
major cities in California.

Hardship, yes.

ObTrav...
What hardships are you forcing on your players?
The payment is due on your starship.
Your overdue on annual maintenance.
Your tab at the tavern is growing.
Creditors are knocking at your door.
How do you work your players to make a profit.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
Message-ID: <F89BOKvHurVEibVCrfX00004d49@hotmail.com>



>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>shadowcat writes:
>>on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles >>in 
>>GT are  stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? >>its 
>>never made any sense not  to give them a backup homing >>capability, and 
>>or short range missiles for counter  missile or anti >>fighter 
>>capabilities?
>
>It's an artifact of the design system; sensors with useful combat >range 
>wind up being extremely expensive.

I'm not a GT gearhead but the missile shouldn't have to have any significant 
range. Something like a 15'000'km sensor should be enough. The missile will 
know exactly where to look (target data over datalink) and will be much 
closer by the time an accurate position is needed.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 13:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 12:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <F89BOKvHurVEibVCrfX00004d49@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019761410.7031.ajackson@ping>

Patrik Holmstr=F6m writes:

> I'm not a GT gearhead but the missile shouldn't have to have any
> significant  range. Something like a 15'000'km sensor should be enough.
> The missile will  know exactly where to look (target data over datalink) =
and
> will be much  closer by the time an accurate position is needed.

The sensor rules in GURPS are heavily broken (as in, off by several orders =
of
magnitude).  A 10,000 mile sensor is not small.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 13:33:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Thu Apr 25 12:33:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <3CC80086.8268.15FA7B@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020425153645.00a49e30@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Shadowcat,


>on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles in GT 
>are
>stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? its never made 
>any sense not
>to give them a backup homing capability, and or short range missiles for 
>counter
>missile or anti fighter capabilities?

We created some long range bombing missiles that ran on inertial guidance, 
then went active when they hit their designated activation location.  The 
expected activation "hex" had to be planned for when a ship was within (if 
I recall correctly) 3 hexes of the activation hex.  What was done was to 
remove the warhead entirely - turning the missile into a kinetic kill 
weapon.  The primary purpose of this missile was to use it for long range 
attacks on enemy shipping.  It did require the use of GURPS VEHICLES 
missile guidance rules as opposed to the standard GURPS TRAVELLER 
rules.  The main reason for this missile's creation was to exploit the fact 
that transponders on civilian ships can be sensed out to rather *extreme* 
ranges.  The idea here was to create missiles that simulated what amounts 
to a "submarine" attack on civilian shipping.

                Hal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020329002354.00a2d920@pop.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20425.115724.3V9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Further on the Earth example, Earth is on the Suns 100d limit,


Sol's radius is 7e8 m. Or 700,000 km. So the diameter is 1.4e6 km. 

100 d would be 140e6 km. 1 AU is 150e6 km.

So it *is* pretty darn close. 

If you use the tidal force "rule" it's a *lot* smaller.

But there's no need to jump to the outer system. Unless your TU
requires jumps end at a gravity well.

Just plot your jump to clear the 100d limit of Sol and come out
"above", "below", "ahead" or "behind" Earth. Roughly 140e6 km away.
Call it 1 AU. Of course this is worst case. 

That's a long trip in normal space, but there's so much space that
ships could come out in that trying to intercept them would be a matter
of pure *luck*. And damned unlikely. 

If (as is true most of the time) Earth is closer to one "edge" of the
"shadow cone" of the sun, you'd jump for that area. Which concentrates
the ships some, but not a lot, as the difference in transit time caused
by being even a million km away from the "ideal" emergence point isn't
that great, but it *totally* hoses intercept attempts.

> so unless 
> your approach angle is from a planet that isn't blocked by the sun, you 
> have to jump to an outer system body and come in from there.

Nope. See above.

> Notably, this is seasonal, and so you might have a "pirate" season
> when the jump lanes shift.

Seasonal for a particular "route". 

> Also, I realised that there's nothing to stop the pirate from jamming the 
> victim. The J-point of the mainworld (Earth) is beyond sensor range, so the 
> pirate, if clever can avoid the patrol even knowing they had a raid.

Jamming is the exact *opposite* of stealth. Even if it's mostly
directional. It also doesn't prevent your victim from sending out a
signal, especially if it's going in a direction other then one your
have the jamming aimed.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:13:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:13:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <001601c1d6c5$0248a060$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20425.122531.2a1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Ok, lets say that there is a large habitat in the planetoid belt of the
> system (one of several such large stations), where the refined products from
> mining stations scattered throughout the belt in a 0.4 AU radius are brought
> by Cargo Cutters for transfer to a larger Jump Capable Transport for
> shipping to the Mainworld/Neighbouring systems etc.
>
> If you intercept one of the cutters you can probably arrange for the
> intercept point to be several millions of km from the nearest SDB. That
> should give you a few hours uninterrupted piracy...

Now try *doing* the intercept. 

If you are using limited delta-V rules, then it gets more than a little
difficult. Especially given that the pirate needs to save enough fuel
to make his post jump manuevers, and (in the leave behind two cutters)
enough for the second intercept and the post jump manuevers after that.

The ship being intercepted only needs to have enough fuel left to get
within range of a "tug" from it's destination.

And jumping into the attack with a high velocity can backfire. If you
come out on the wrong side of the target, youe velociity is in the
wrong direction, and you'd have been better off jumping in at rest.

And don't forget the uncertainty in emergence times. That can place you
*millions* of km out of position. After all that target ship is
*moving*. At the 200 km/sec figure someone else used, every *hour* you
are off in your emergence time means the target is 3/4s of a million km
away from the position you were planning on.

> Now if you counter this by having each little mining station serviced by
> Jump capable ships, which will need to be either J2 capable, or sacrifice
> cargo space for extra fuel (unless each little station has ample fuel
> available to refill the ships tanks), then my attack plan becomes one of
> raiding the little mining outposts and stealing mining equipment, computers,
> and anything else that can be plundered in a few hours (or maybe even days)
> before the nearest SDB can arrive... or does every little mining out post
> have a few SDB's permanently assigned to its defence? Remember, for every
> SDB on its active duty station there are 2 or 3 others in transit or
> undergoing maintenance.

If mining stations get raided regularly, they are apt to be armed. And
miners in asteroid belts will tend to have some pretty powerful lasers
for mining purposes anyway. And mass drivers for tossing low value
cargoes around the system. Nobody is going to bother hijacking a few
hundred tons of iron. But a mass driver that can toss that into an
orbit where it can be picked up by a processing plant or a planet can
toss a ton of "pebbles" at you like the shotgun from hell.

> After all, you can jump to within a thousand km of a 10km planetoid fire a
> few laser blasts at the rock surrounding the mining outpost, demand no
> resistance then send in your Hearty Swashbucklers in a cutter to plunder the
> outpost while covered by your main ships weaponry. Before any help can
> arrive you are long gone.

No, you *can't* make that jump. You can jump to that close to where it
will be IF YOU EMERGE AT THE CALCULATED TIME. 

If you emerge at a different time, you'll be *way* out of position.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:17:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:17:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <006c01c1d6d7$27f40220$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20425.124254.1N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Timothy Little writes:
>> > Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> > > The jump ship isn't that much more expensive, and the performance
>> > > difference is quite large (it's actually a week for 0.4 AU, not 0.8
>> > > AU).
>> >
>> > (Are you sure you aren't using m s^-2 instead of g's?)
>>
>> Yes.  However, I'm also using HEPlaR (as per the person I was responding
> to),
>> which means max delta-V is horrible.
>
> That was me...
>
> I've just looked up the interplanetary travel rules in TNE. Lets take a
> Cutter with 48 G-Turns of Manoeuvre fuel... that's 24 G-Hours. Obviously you
> will use not more than 1/2 of that to accelerate (assuming you intend to
> stop again...) and realistically you would rarely use more than 1/3, so as
> to leave a 1/3 of a tank for emergencies.
>
> So we will go with 8 G-Hours of acceleration. According to the table on
> p.227 of TNE that equates to 18 minutes per Lightsecond. So in 6 days
> coasting (allowing the remaining day for accelerating and decelerating) you
> can travel (6x24x60)/18 = 480Ls... which is 8 Lightminutes or pretty much
> 1AU for a typical operational range.
>
> The Maximum range would be after 12 G-Hours of burn, reaching 12 minutes per
> Ls, or  1.5 AU in 6 days
>
> In the Broadsword vs Cutter example I used earlier, both have 48 G-Turns of
> fuel as standard, but the Broadsword can dip into its Jump Fuel for extra
> manoeuvre fuel. (With its J3 capacity we can assume it can fairly safely dip
> into 1/3 of its jump fuel without hindering its ability to Jump out if
> things go bad, for an extra 15 G-Turns)
>
> At M-3 the Cutter can reach top speed in 4 hours, the Broadsword only has
> M-2 so would take 6 Hours to reach the same speed,  but it can burn for a
> maximum of 15.5 G-Hours using Jump fuel taking it to about 9 minutes per Ls
>
> Assuming the Cutter has already spent 8 G-Hours burning and is coasting when
> the Broadsword Jumps in at relative rest, just as the Cutter passes it.

That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.

> The
> cutter burns for another hour and 20 minutes to reach 12 G-Hours, the
> Broadsword burns for 7 hours 45 minutes to reach its 15.5 G-Hour burn limit.

> So the Cutter goes at 15min/ls for 80minutes then 12min/ls. The Broadsword
> averages 18min/ls for 465 minutes then it travels at 9min/ls until it
> overhauls the cutter. after both ships stop accelerating the cutter is about
> 11.6 Ls ahead of the Broadsword. It then take the broadsword a further 7
> hours or so to close to point blank range... call it 8 or so to allow the
> broadsword some deceleration to match velocities.
>
> So within 16 Hours of arrival the cutter has been caught. In this time the
> vessels have travelled about 70 Ls, or about 0.15 AU.

Except that you are assuming that the cutter is running away in a
straight line. 

It's smarter to make burns at right angles to his course. That makes
your intercept harder because you don't get to build your vector as
easily. Also, don't forget the effect of light speed lag in trying to
counter his manuevers. Until you get close, you'll lose time
accelewrating in the wrong direction after each acceleration change he
makes. 

And in an emergency like this, *he* can afford to burn his tanks dry,
because either an SDB can intercept and refuel him, or a ship can
intercept him as he zips past his desination.

*He* can afford to be floating thru space with empty tanks. *You*
can't. 

Oh yeah if the cutter *does* run "straight" away from you, and you
follow, he can damage you severely just by dumping trash out the
airlock. Work out what a 50 gram bolt will do at 288 km/sec (8
g-hours). It's equivalent to 460 kilos of TNT.

In space a straight out "stern chase" is *dangerous* for the pursuer.

> A standard SDB has 112 G-Turns of fuel, or 56 G-Hours, so at most it will
> use 26 G-Hours to accelerate. Assuming it was coasting after a 26 G-Hour
> Burn (about 6.5 hours with its 4G drive) and was pointing in exactly the
> right direction it can cover a light second in about 5.5 minutes. In 16
> hours it can travel 175ls, or ~0.37 AU. So if the SDB was perfectly position
> on a reciprocal course with the cutter and already at full speed it could be
> about 0.5AU from where the chase started and get there in time to intercept
> in other circumstances it is likely that the Pirate will have a few hours
> before an SDB arrives, and will have plenty of time to jump if an SDB
> approaches.

Yes, but jumping without having made an intercept is a net loss for the
pirate. 

And as long as an SDB can eventually make an intercept with enough feul
to get back to base with the cutter before the life support in the
cutter runs out, the cutter can burn *all* of its fuel in evading you. 

> All this assumes as well that the Cutter reacts to the Broadswords arrival
> instantly, and that the Broadsword has useful residual velocity, and that it
> didn't jump in a few Ls ahead of the Cutter to cut its lead, and the SDB is
> perfectly positioned to intercept.

And that you emerge from jump at the precise time you planned, rather
than hours earlier or later. 

And a whole bunch of other assumptions I dealt with above.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:20:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:20:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017422404.1406.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20425.130046.1P5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I suppose a situation like that could exist.  Pretty rare, though.  Also, 
> since
> you're transporting mining products (dense, low-value) you're not going to 
> use
> cutters, you're going to use bulk carriers, and stealing the cargo will be
> horribly pointless (ok, you have a load of processed ore, at Cr 5,000 per 
> dton.
> What are you going to do with it?)

Heck, with *that* sort of cargo you don't even use a ship. You just
hang some radar corners off a container (or fuse the stuff into a
reasonably solid block instead of "wasting" a container) and either use
a tug to boost it into a transfer orbit or use a mass driver to launch
it into the orbit. 

At the other end a tug graples it and drags it to the customer.

It ain't worth stealing, and it ain't worth wasting a ship on for the
whole trip. In fact, unless there's a rush, such stuff would be in low
velocity orbits that took months or years in transit. You don't *care*
how long a load takes to get there as long as loads arrive regularly.
Sort of like a pipeline.

Nobody bothers tapping a pipeline to steal oil. It ain't worth the
hassle. And so what if it takes weeks for the oil to move from one end
to the other? As long as there's a steady stream...

>> After all, you can jump to within a thousand km of a 10km planetoid fire a
>> few laser blasts at the rock surrounding the mining outpost, demand no
>> resistance then send in your Hearty Swashbucklers in a cutter to plunder
>> the outpost while covered by your main ships weaponry. Before any help can
>> arrive you are long gone.
>
> And the people in the mining outpost move into their mining tunnels
> behind 500 meters of rock and laugh at you.

And he won't know *where* the tunnels are. So all he can do is blast
the places where they reach the surface. The miners can dig out later.
*They* have mining equipment. He doesn't.

And just picture the results of sending troops into a tunnel if the
miners start a tunneling machine from the other end. 

The troops can damage the cutting heads pretty badly before it crushes
them. Or they can use weapons that are apt to kill them at the same
time they stop the machine.

And if instead of mechanical cutting heads it uses lasers or particle
beams things get *really* interesting. <eg>


Hard rock mining gear is *tough*. It has to be. Gear for cutting into
nickel iron asteroids will be even tougher.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEHCDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <DAV14JGwTVfKB0vJXpV00005a42@hotmail.com>

> The new diet craze! Put on a black hole lapel pin and everyone will think
> you're eating when you aren't getting a single bite!
>

Or place a black hole in your modem.  Everyone will think you're receiving
data when you aren't getting a single byte.

Be assured, I am appropriately ashamed.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <20020425120658.A16347@4dv.net>
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>; from texasredshift@hotmail.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:42:03PM -0500
Message-ID: <3CC91708.13447.1F83B4@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:06, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> As ideas go, it's really not all that bad.  1% is a bit steep, though.

But it should be applied to all everything. Who really thinks SF fans 
are the only beneficiaries of NASA's work?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:03:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:03:12 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <200204251751.g3PHpXP22829@premier1.premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CC91708.29789.1F8305@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:48, wombat@premier.net wrote:

> Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my
> designs for _Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).
>  Note that all three of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry
> NPAW spinal mounts; I've never been a big fan of meson guns. 
> Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of meson
> guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that ecological
> niche. 

I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not 
rea;;y a fan of them either, and seldom use them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net>
References: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 14:35, Mark Urbin wrote:

> >Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You 
> >cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the 
> >First Amendment, with ample precedent.
> 
> Oh, like funking US Constitution 101 every kept anybody out of office...

Seems to me (on a quick read-through) that if actually knowing and up 
holding your constitution was a requirement for election you'd have a 
hell of a lot fewer politicians and also a great many fewer laws.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:11:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:11:37 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425.114504.-189505.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CC91946.27653.28495E@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> To rent a 1 bedroom house here in Stockton it's $1,000 a month minimum,
> to buy $125,000 minimum. For a resonably nice 2 bedroom place in a nice
> area expect to start at $250,000. This is typical throughout all the
> major cities in California.

Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three bedroom place in an 
okay area of Wellington. In my home town of Palmerston North you'd 
probably get a 4-bedroom place.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net>
 <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425171543.00b89ec0@urbin.net>

At 09:02 AM 4/26/02 +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 25 Apr 2002 at 14:35, Mark Urbin wrote:
> > >Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You
> > >cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the
> > >First Amendment, with ample precedent.
> > Oh, like funking US Constitution 101 every kept anybody out of office...
>Seems to me (on a quick read-through) that if actually knowing and up
>holding your constitution was a requirement for election you'd have a
>hell of a lot fewer politicians and also a great many fewer laws.

Oh ya...We would probably have just one member out of our current gaggle of 
congresscritters.

...and he'd be from Texas...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8ee241a5d06@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:42 PM -0500 4/25/02, Texas Redshift wrote:
>  >From another list.  Not confirmed by me.
>
>< Begin quote >
>A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a plan
>to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
>Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
>proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
>space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
>Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
>space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," Williams said in
>a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, Ala.,
>resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science from
>the
>University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in business
>management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super Market at
>Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
>< End quote >
>
>Opinions?


How much of the budget would a 1% tax cover?
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:28:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:28:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>
References: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8ee2476727f@[143.232.119.186]>

At 2:35 PM -0400 4/25/02, Mark Urbin wrote:
>Follow it with a 1% tax on art books, art supplies, and the sale of 
>art (records, tapes, movie tickets, paintings, etc.) to fund federal 
>art projects.

I'm not sure these sort of things are such a bad idea.  It would tie 
the projects in better with their constituencies.  For example, the 
SF tax would give NASA funding from a source that puts a priority on 
its activities and give those who are interested in space research 
more results.  (And people are more tolerant of taxes that go to 
specific things they support).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com> <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020426080850.A14241@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, it's the method ised by floppy *and* hard disk controllers
> for just about everything. GCR and all the rest of that was only used
> by Apple and Commodore.

Yes, and wasn't even used in the Commodore Amiga.  It *could* read and
write GCR, but at single density.  (The GCR encoding method looks
better on paper, 4 bits out of 5, but is inherently lower-density for
a given magnetic coercivity of medium.)


> No, at the *hardware* level, it's still sectors and tracks.

Not even that: at the *hardware* level, it's a sequence of magnetic
polarity changes.  Software (or firmware) groups them into sectors and
tracks.  The Amiga didn't have a firmware sector decoder; it read
tracks in as '0' for no polarity change at the appropriate time, and
'1' if there was.  The MFM decoding, sector recognition, and error
checking was done in software -- by the CPU normally, but I wrote a
driver that used the "Agnes" GPU instead.


> *If* Commodore had used FM and MFM encoding on the disks, rather than
> GCR (basicly a different way of modulating the signal that represents
> the bitstream on the media), then all it'd take to read a C-64 disk on
> a PC would be some fancy software. 

As it is, most modern FDD controllers have MFM decoding and sector
recognition in firmware or hardware, so you can't do GCR reading
without changing chips.  However: there are software tricks by which
you can read *most* low-density GCR in an MFM drive (as in recover 90%
or so of the bits) so long as the drive hardware isn't too "smart" and
refuses to read what it thinks is a damaged sector.  Lower-density GCR
comes out with a predictable pattern of bits after MFM 'decoding'.
The only problem is loss of synchronization in low-quality drives.

I believe the Mac uses variable-speed drive hardware as well as GCR,
so this trick won't work with Mac disks.  (At least, they did 10 years
ago when I last played around with these things!)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:14:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:14:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <20020425.180812.-297303.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:42:03 -0500 "Texas Redshift"
<texasredshift@hotmail.com> writes:
> From another list.  Not confirmed by me.

Here's the actual link: 
http://www.al.com/news/huntsvilletimes/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_stan
dard.xsl?/base/news/101949940424601171.xml
 
> < Begin quote >
> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has 
> proposed a plan
> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times 
> reported.
> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District 
> seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and 
> Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to 
> "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," Williams 
> said in
> a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, 
> Ala.,
> resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science 
> from
> the
> University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in 
> business
> management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super 
> Market at
> Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
> < End quote >


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] second verse same as the first Chameleon
Message-ID: <3CC83AF3.17728.908D6@localhost>

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--Message-Boundary-8302--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F251utSgcOrBLSAQV6u0000a9dd@hotmail.com>
References: <F251utSgcOrBLSAQV6u0000a9dd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020426083935.A14400@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking about a 
> X-ray laser to it needs to be at least TL13.

That doesn't necessarily follow.  TL13 is where controlled and
contained Xray weapon lasers appear, is it not?  I would expect
detonation lasers to appear *much* earlier; TL8 or 9.


> Here is where we run out of information. How many lasing rods are
> there in a NukeDet?

I don't know.  However, the listed figures are probably the most that
can be directed at a single target (regardless of actual number of
rods).  If you have targets scattered around the nuke, it can almost
certainly generate more beams with the same warhead.


> Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow
> up) or something more powerful (that does)?

The latter, I would expect.  A cartridge that doesn't blow up is
over-engineered for this task.


>Can a lasing rod (as used in NukeDets) also be used with chemicals?

Almost certainly nuclear detonation lasers are nothing like chemical
ones.  They would be based on gamma/hard Xray radiation input to begin
with, and chemical reactions never generate such radiation.


> What is the cost/weight/volume of the lasing rod and tracking
> telescope?

TL dependent, certainly.  


> Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a lot. 
> TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing 
> Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical Lasing 
> Cartridge? Double this?

Theoretically possible, yes.  Practically?  I don't know.  The mass of
a cartridge is more than just the mass of chemical compounds contained
within it, and converting chemical energy to laser energy is usually
far from 100% efficient.  2 MJ/kg is very good, as far as I can see.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:02:38AM +1200
References: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net> <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020425164405.A20114@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:02:38AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Seems to me (on a quick read-through) that if actually knowing and up 
> holding your constitution was a requirement for election you'd have a 
> hell of a lot fewer politicians and also a great many fewer laws.

That's not escaped a lot of folks.  Including, I fear, our
politicians.  Unfortunately, a politician's job is not to uphold the
rules but to keep the mob happy.

I've often felt that it would be a good idea to declare that any
legislator voting for an unconstitutional law may no longer hold any
office.  It'd make the courts too powerful, though.  Sigh.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only kind of freedom that the mob can imagine is freedom to annoy
and oppress its betters, and that is precisely the kind that we mainly
have.                                                   --H.L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Judder-drive?
In-Reply-To: <DAV22gADGFXpWvFmaWn0000574a@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV22gADGFXpWvFmaWn0000574a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020426084822.B14400@freeman.little-possums.net>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> The crucial thing, says Millis, is whether Goodwin's magnet would
> produce any net motion at all - it might just sit there and
> vibrate.

The jolt from switching a powerful electromagnet on or off certainly
isn't anything new in physics.  The exact magnitude is extremely
difficult to calculate in practice, but the physics behind it is just
well-known classical electromagnetism.

There is of course the *possibility* that new physics applies, and so
it might be worth looking at.  However, since known physics already
predicts such a jolt I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a
reactionless drive to arise from this research.

In fact, various plasma drives under test already use a more refined
version of this magnetic back-reaction; but of course they use
reaction mass.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com> <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <20020426080850.A14241@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CC8894B.2060409@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> I believe the Mac uses variable-speed drive hardware as well as GCR,
> so this trick won't work with Mac disks.  (At least, they did 10 years
> ago when I last played around with these things!)

Only for the old, no-longer supported 400 and 800K single density and 
double density disks.

Moreover, the drivers for those 400K (and the 800 K , I think) disks 
represent the Woz's contribution to the Mac...these were actually a 
superior method of encoding than what was on PC's...you can store more 
(400 vs 360k, 800 vs 720) and it's a wee bit more reliable, since all 
the sectors are the same physical size, whereas the physical size (and 
packing of your magnetic bits) of a sector on a PC disk changes from the 
center out.

The Woz originally did this because Shugart wouldn't release specs on 
their floppy disk drives, iirc, so he hacked his own design for the 
original Apple II drives, and came up with this method.

(It's also not dumb, nor all that new, it is, essentially, the same 
mechanism a record player uses, and is used in the CD-red and blue book 
definitions)


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019696542.4978.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260840130.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Anthony:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Sure, congress is theoretically able to reinstate the draft.  They're just
> vanishingly unlikely to want to.

 The latrine-O-gram I heard was that it is just a vote of congress to
restablish the draft. An AYE/NAY vote. I can be very wrong on this point.

 Anyway FWIW I gave up a sole surviving son deferment to enlist. Thought
at the time it was the right thing to do. <1968>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260840130.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019777316.9882.ajackson@ping>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link writes:
> Hoi Anthony:
> 
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> > Sure, congress is theoretically able to reinstate the draft.  They're
> > just vanishingly unlikely to want to.
> 
>  The latrine-O-gram I heard was that it is just a vote of congress to
> restablish the draft. An AYE/NAY vote. I can be very wrong on this point.

Well, it would probably have to be a bill, like any other, requiring both
houses and a presidential signature.  There's lots of pretty extreme things
congress has the power to do, but that doesn't mean they'll actually do any of
those things.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260858570.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Mikko:

On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> Well, I wouldn't want to be in the field with smokers. It has no good
> points, and many bad.

 It was real nice of the rural VS boys after raiding a supply area to
spend the night lighting up the cigs. The red embers weren't fire flies.
I never heard what the rules by the Lao Dong party of the NVA put down if
anything about the VS and the NVA on smoking. I know that some did and
others didn't. FWIW you can tell the diffeence of cig tobacco by the
smell. Camels are the worse.

> Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even farther with image
> intensifiers. Also, you might want not to leave much stuff around, which
> is quite hard if you have to remember collecting everything you smoke.

 Policing the area is a problem for cig smokers. The cigar smokers I knew
would save the stub. Don'T remember the correct word. I smoked a pipe and
all I needed to do was spead and cover the ash.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:41:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:41:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
References: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC892D7.39DE6B02@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

>      Nice touch!  A steward with odd culinary ideas sounds great.  Have the
> PCs loathe the meals she prepares BUT she also lures lots of high passengers
> aboard with the same.  The PCs Beowulf could get a rep for catering to a
> certain type of traveller; they pay well and are just annoying enough to
> make the PCs batty.
>
>      "Hadn't really thought of the ingredient angle.  Thanks Larsen."
>
>      Your very welcome.  Have your PCs set aside a low berth for the Vargr
> steward's "supplies"?  Or rigged up a similar device in the hold or
> engineering?  How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy
> stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other supplies
> and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require PRECISE
> enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the constant risk
> of possible allergens from all those plants wafting their way through the
> ventilation system...

Sweet! Once again thanks. Hee, hee, hee those poor PC's

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #445 - 17 msgs
Message-ID: <34.2697c722.29f9ee48@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/25/2002 5:27:56 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:

For the benefit of those of us who get the digest version, could you please 
put the text in the body of the message instead of attaching it?

All I see is several pages of the following"

>--Message-Boundary-8302
>Content-type: Text/HTML; name="TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class Commerce 
Raider.htm"
>Content-disposition: attachment; filename="TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class 
Commerce Raider.htm"
>Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64
>
>PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcmFuc2l0aW9u
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>IkxFRlQiPjxVPkNvbW11bmljYXRvciBSYW5nZSAobWkpPC9VPjwvVEQ+DQo8VEggQUxJR049


Thanks

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020425.170405.-125887.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> 
> Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three bedroom place in 
> an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of Palmerston North you'd 
> probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> 
> -- 

Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security, and my disability
pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260939420.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:

 So would this tax be followed up with a 1% tax on Fantasy RPGs movies and
literature to help finance the Department of Defense <LOL>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425.170405.-125887.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CC94593.29071.D5590E@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 17:04, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security, and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.

Now that's the trick, isn't it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <200204260023.EZT00242@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link says
> So would this tax be followed up with a 1% tax on Fantasy 
>RPGs movies and literature to help finance the Department of 
>Defense <LOL>
>

Now let's think about that for a minute. A lot of us have 
already made our contribution bodily to various Departments 
of Defense (or War, as the case may be).  

Then there's old gaming codgers like Dunnigan, who are now 
central figures in mainstream DoD circles.  

I think that there should be a "lack of imagination" tax.  If 
you spend more on movies, television, and pop music than you 
do on science fiction books and role playing games, then you 
should be required to pay a 25% tax on movies, television, 
and pop music, the proceeds of which should be paid to the 
people who bring you science fiction books and role playing 
games.


We can certainly think up a complicated formula for payment, 
based on the popularity of your work over the years.
________________
There's a man who leads a life of danger
To everyone he meets he stays a stranger
With every move he makes another chance he takes 
Odds are he won't live to see tomorrow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 25 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
References: <20020425222704.BE24927AE3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC8A8A1.B8979294@earthlink.net>

Rupert Boleyn posted:
> 
> On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:48, wombat@premier.net wrote:
> 
> > Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my
> > designs for _Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).
> >  Note that all three of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry
> > NPAW spinal mounts; I've never been a big fan of meson guns.
> > Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of meson
> > guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that ecological
> > niche.
> 
> I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
> really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.

First of all, thank you to all of those who replied. Patrik, I'm
going to mine your site this evening for ideas! Your "Recurrent
Glory"-class is positively stunning.

As for meson guns..yeah, I never liked 'em. Never, that is, until
I saw Patrik's website. How about a 406 Gj Meson Spinal mount that
can punch through a cruiser's meson screen (and armor) at Long
distance?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 19:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 18:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <18819783.11D89EB1.02280B06@aol.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:
> I think that there should be a "lack of imagination" tax.

It's conversations like this that remind me that Ayn
Rand, cracked as she was, actually had a few useful
insights.

The real reason libertarianism never gets anywhere is
because *everyone* has some tax or rule that they would
like to see imposed by force on their fellow men. We
all have some behavior of which we disapprove, so we
reach for the levers of government in order to outlaw
that behavior for everyone. In short, we have met the
second-handers, and they are us.

(Yes, John, I know you weren't being terribly serious.
You just reminded me of a long-standing pet peeve.)

---
Jon



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
In-Reply-To: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>
References: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020426125234.A14613@freeman.little-possums.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy
> stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other
> supplies and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require
> PRECISE enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the
> constant risk of possible allergens from all those plants wafting
> their way through the ventilation system...

Oy!  Stop giving my GM nasty ideas!

My character already has a single-occupancy stateroom with dozens of
exotic plants, special lighting conditions, some with individual
atmospheres, and the cabin *does* have tuned gravity.  Our current
situation has some type of lifeform running around the ship, regarding
which one character has already had suspicions about where it might
have come from.  We don't need allergens as well!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
References: <18819783.11D89EB1.02280B06@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006101c1ecd1$c51ce610$9307b286@Shane>

> The real reason libertarianism never gets anywhere is
> because *everyone* has some tax or rule that they would
> like to see imposed by force on their fellow men.

We do?  Damn, I'd better come up with one quickly or I'll be a *no-one*.
Oh wait.. I already am. :)
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Member of the general public since 1976
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
References: <20425.124254.1N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <001401c1ecd2$fada91c0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>

<snip>

> Matt Bond wrote:
> > Assuming the Cutter has already spent 8 G-Hours burning and is coasting
when
> > the Broadsword Jumps in at relative rest, just as the Cutter passes it.
>
> That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
> emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.

And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that IMTU
while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
calculable duration.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:39:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:39:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
References: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com> <20020426125234.A14613@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <006901c1ecd2$f537b2c0$9307b286@Shane>

Tim wrote:
> My character already has a single-occupancy stateroom with dozens of
> exotic plants, special lighting conditions, some with individual
> atmospheres, and the cabin *does* have tuned gravity.  Our current
> situation has some type of lifeform running around the ship, regarding
> which one character has already had suspicions about where it might
> have come from.  We don't need allergens as well!

"What am I, a biologist now?  How was I meant to know the captain was
allergic to cyanide gas?"
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Trying to plead his case from the wrong side of the
airlock hatch
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:53:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:53:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <17d.7662cf6.29fa26e8@aol.com>

"Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> writes:

>We, the viewers, keep seeing special and unusual cases.
>For example, _USS Enterprise_ (from the old series) was one
>of only twelve Constitution-class cruisers, and such ships
>were the most prestigious ships in Galaxy Exploration Command,
>which was the most prestigious division of Starfleet.  The
>crews of these special ships were officers from Captain
>down to bottle-washer.

Heh. I'm of the opinion that in Star Fleet, Ensigns are a mis-translation of 
the old Terran naval tradition, since in ST they seem to be what you "run up 
the flagpole to see who shoots back"...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 22:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 21:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <20020425.213237.-125945.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 23:43:36 EDT GypsyComet@aol.com writes:
> "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> writes:
> 
> >We, the viewers, keep seeing special and unusual cases.
> >For example, _USS Enterprise_ (from the old series) was one
> >of only twelve Constitution-class cruisers, and such ships
> >were the most prestigious ships in Galaxy Exploration Command,
> >which was the most prestigious division of Starfleet.  The
> >crews of these special ships were officers from Captain
> >down to bottle-washer.
> 
> Heh. I'm of the opinion that in Star Fleet, Ensigns are a 
> mis-translation of 
> the old Terran naval tradition, since in ST they seem to be what you 
> "run up  the flagpole to see who shoots back"...
> 
> GC

There were plenty of enlisted personnel in all of the ST series, but they
were the extras, and the ones who were killed off in battles. And don't
forget the most famous enlisted man Chief O'brian.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 22:49:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 21:49:06 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <F182WZbQLbzjADMBLxt00008700@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020425223624.044bbc10@rollanet.org>

At 08:56 AM 4/25/02, you wrote:
>John Groth <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
>
>This may not be accurate, as I'm drawing on secondary sources
>(FASA's Star Trek RPG) for this...
>
>
>As I said, this is material from a secondary source, so it
>may be inaccurate.  It may even be a whole-cloth creation
>of the game designers, rather than a report of the actual
>organization of Gene Rodenberry's Starfleet.
>
>Walt Smith
>Firelock on DALNet

 From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry 
(copyright 1968)

     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 22:55:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Thu Apr 25 21:55:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020425.213237.-125945.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020425.213237.-125945.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <200204260054080915.01D811E7@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

Traveller's Aide #1 for T20 and Classic Traveller is now available, along=
 with subscriptions.
http://www.TravellerRPG.com


Hunter




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 23:08:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr 25 22:08:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: shadowcat's ships (was TML digest, Vol 2002 #445 - 17 msgs)
In-Reply-To: <34.2697c722.29f9ee48@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIEDMAA.tml@downport.com>

To facilitate your enjoyment of shadowcat's ship conversions, the Aslan
Ambassador has kindly allowed him to park them in his pocket empire:

http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
>
> For the benefit of those of us who get the digest version, could
> you please
> put the text in the body of the message instead of attaching it?


Unfortunately, placing them in the body wraps them in all of the wrong
places. All 72 (so far) of his recent conversions are there in HTML and
'GURPS Traveller Ships' (.gtv) versions.

For those who have been following, this is the direct link to his
most-recent offering
http://www.pocketempires.com/fafrhd/TL12_800-ton_Chameleon-class_Commerce_Ra
ider.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 01:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Fri Apr 26 00:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC96FDE.27660.37E569C@localhost>

I think the most interesting aspect of this proposed tax is that it 
necessitates a definition of what exactly "science fiction" is.  Is 
/Gravity's Rainbow/ SF?  Is /Flowers for Algernon/?  What about 
Michael Crichton's stuff?  And maybe some drek would be 
exempted as being science fantasy -- the Star Wars franchise, 
/ID4/, etc.

<facetious>
Good, no more petty squabbling among people who actually read 
the stuff, now we're going to get a nice, clear government definition!
</facetious>

-- Rachel

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 02:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 26 01:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote :

> Well, I wouldn't want to be in the field with smokers.
> It has no good points, and many bad.

Oh, I don't know. If I was "in the field" I would be more
concerned about my personal survival than the rest of the unit,
and if the others were smokers that makes them bigger targets
than I, presumably increasing my chances of survival!
<grin>

> Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even
> farther with image intensifiers. Also, you might
> want not to leave much  stuff around, which
> is quite hard if you have to remember collecting
> everything you smoke.

I always remember the surprise I got when it was demonstratd to
me that a person taking even a clandestine puff on a
hand-shielded cigarette can be seen from over 2kms with the naked
eye in the dark. The flare of a lit match is even more visible.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:10:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:10:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017438121.4165.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20425.131430.3i5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> And the output of the mining won't be, for example, lanthanun ore, it will
>> be lanthanum... the availability of cheap fusion power makes refining the
>> ore at site then shipping the refined product cost effective compared to
>> shipping ore to a larger refinery elsewhere.
>
> Sort of true.  However, there's no real reason to have multiple small
> mines in a system; just use one big mining ship, reduce asteroids to
> rubble one at a time, and move on.

Actually, this is a flaw in the background. With cheap fusion power,
and especially if the fusion is based on continuous fusion in a plasma
(confined magnetically or by a combo of magnetic and gravitic forces)
you shovel rock in one end and get isotopically pure elements out the
other. The stuff you don't have much need for (like silicon and
aluminum, which "rock" has *way* too much of) you just combinine with
the (way too much) oxygen to form convenient lumps of quartz and
sapphire. 

You'll wind up with megatons of "common" elements, and tons of rare
ones... 

Assuming abundances similar to the Earth's crust, from 10 million tons
of rock (a cube about 1.5 km on a side), you'll get:

        mg/kg			yeild
        -------		----------------------
O	4.61e5		4.6e9	 4,600 kilotons
Si	2.82e5		2.82e9	 2,820 kilotons
Al	8.23e4		8.23e8	   823 kilotons
Fe	5.63e4		5.63e8	   563 kilotons
Ca	4.15e4		4.15e8	   415 kilotons
Na	2.36e4		2.36e8	   236 kilotons
Mg	2.33e4		2.33e8     233 kilotons
K	2.09e4		2.09e8	   209 kilotons
Ti	5.65e3		5.56e7	55,600 tons
H	1.4e3		1.4e7	14,000 tons
P	1.05e3		1.05e7	10,500 tons
Mn	9.50e2		9.50e6	 9,500 tons
F	5.85e2		5.85e6	 5,850 tons
Ba	4.25e2		4.25e6	 4,250 tons
Sr	3.70e2		3.70e6	 3,700 tons
S	3.5e2		3.5e6	 3,500 tons
C	2.00e2		2.00e6	 2,000 tons
Zr	1.65e2		1.65e6	 1,650 tons
Cl	1.45e2		1.45e6	 1,450 tons
V	1.20e2		1.20e6	 1,200 tons
Cr	1.02e2		1.02e6	 1,020 tons
Rb	9.0e1		9.0e5	   900 tons
Ni	8.4e1		8.4e5	   840 tons
Zn	7.0e1		7.0e5	   700 tons
Ce	6.65e1		6.65e5	   665 tons
Cu	6.0e1		6.0e5	   600 tons
Nd	4.15e1		4.15e5	   415 tons
La	3.9e1		3.9e5	   390 tons
Y	3.3e1		3.3e5	   330 tons
Co	2.5e1		2.5e5	   250 tons
Sc	2.2e1		2.2e5	   220 tons
Li	2.0e1		2.0e5	   200 tons
Nb	2.0e1		2.0e5	   200 tons
Ga	1.9e1		1.9e5	   190 tons
N	1.9e1		1.9e5	   190 tons
Pb	1.4e1		1.4e5	   140 tons
B	1e1		1e5	   100 tons
Th	9.6		9.6e4   96,000 kilos
Pr	9.2		9.2e4	92,000 kilos
Sm	7.05		7.05e4	70,500 kilos
Gd	6.2		6.2e4   62,000 kilos
Dy	5.2		5.2e4   52,000 kilos
Ar	3.5		3.5e4   35,000 kilos
Er	3.5		3.5e4   35,000 kilos
Yb	3.2		3.2e4   32,000 kilos
Hf	3.0		3.0e4   30,000 kilos
Cs	3		3e4     30,000 kilos
Be	2.8		2.8e4   28,000 kilos
U	2.7		2.7e4   27,000 kilos
Br	2.4		2.4e4   24,000 kilos
Sn	2.3		2.3e4   23,000 kilos
Eu	2.0		2.0e4   20,000 kilos
Ta	2.0		2.0e4   20,000 kilos
As	1.8		1.8e4   18,000 kilos
Ge	1.5		1.5e4   15,000 kilos
Ho	1.3		1.3e4   13,000 kilos
W	1.25		1.25e4  12,500 kilos
Mo	1.2		1.2e4   12,000 kilos
Tb	1.2		1.2e4   12,000 kilos
Tl	8.5e-1		8.5e3	 8,000 kilos
Lu	8e-1		8e3      8,000 kilos
Tm	5.2e-1		5.2e3    5,200 kilos
I	4.5e-1		4.5e3	 4,500 kilos
In	2.5e-1		2.5e3	 2,500 kilos
Sb	2e-1		2e3	 2,000 kilos
Cd	1.5e-1		1.5e3	 1,500 kilos
Hg	8.5e-2		8.5e2	   850 kilos
Ag	7.5e-2		7.5e2	   750 kilos
Se	5e-2		5e2	   500 kilos
Pd	1.5e-2		1.5e2	   150 kilos
Bi	8.5e-3		8.5e1	    85 kilos
He	8e-3		8e1	    80 kilos
Ne	5e-3		5e1         50 kilos
Pt	5e-3		5e1         50 kilos
Os	1.5e-3		1.5e1	    15 kilos
Ir	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Rh	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Ru	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Te	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Re	7e-4		7	     7 kilos
Xe	3e-5		3e-1	   300 grams
Pa	1.4e-6		1.4e-2	    14 grams
Ra	9e-7		9e-3	     9 grams
Ac	5.5e-10		5.5e-6	 5,500 micrograms
Po	2e-10		2e-6	 2,000 micrograms
Rn	4e-13		4e-9	     4 micrograms

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote Clan Trader
Message-ID: <3CC92AA7.7B2468DE@mindspring.com>

Grote Clan Trader
Most clans make their living by operating free traders or the 300 dT
Grote Clan trader. These clan vessels serve along carefully
planned and investigated trade loops that service dozens of smaller
worlds. A Grote trader showing up twice a year may be the
only "scheduled" trader some worlds see. Clan members may have been
anywhere between the Far Frontiers, Vland, and the
Trans-Rift jump 5 route.

 Craft ID:         Grote Clan Trader, TL 11, 147.229 Mcr, Quantity
discount 132.506 MCr

 Hull:         270/675, Disp=300, Config=Cone 2Sl, Armour=Crystaliron
40E, Loaded=4521.07, Unloaded=3253.106

 Power:          Primary 8/16, Fusion=726 Mw, Duration=30days
                      Secondary 12/24, Fusion=1062 Mw, Duration=3days,
Scoops, Purifiers 24 Hours
                     ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=34 days

 Loco:          8/16 Jump=2, 5/10 Maneuver=1G, Agility=1, NOE=150 Kph

 Comm:         Radio=System x 1, Laser =System x 1

 Sensors:       A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1
                     Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=-  POP=-  PES=R
PEP=-

 Off:         3 Hardpoints, 3 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  Triple Laser-7        x 1 in 1 battery

                                      Triple Sand-10      x 1 in 1
battery
                                      Triple Missile-7     x 1 in 1
Battery
                        Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Missile   2    -     -
                                          1
                             Laser     3    -    -
                                           1
                             Sand      4    -    -
                                           1

 Def:            Def DM= 4

 Control:     Computer=Model 3fib x 3, Panels=Dynamic Linked x 369, HUD
x 5

 Accom:     Officer=1 Crew=7 ( Bridge=2 Engineering=2 Gunners=2
Command=1 Stewards=1 Frozen=8 ) Passengers:
                 High=10  Staterooms=10 Small Staterooms=8, Low
Berths=8, Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
                  inertial comp, Airlocks x 2

 Subcraft:  Air/Raft x1(4 dton, TL 11)

 Other:      Cargo=1376.7 Kl/102 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=907 Kl/67
tons, ObjSize=Average, Ram time= 1.1hours


Author: Alan Spik
Adapted from
Ship: Clan Menzies
Class: Grote Clan Trader
Type: Merchant
Architect: William R. Cameron

USP
         MP-32212B1-040000-30002-0 MCr 162.134 300 Tons
Bat Bear             1     1   1   Crew: 8
Bat                     1     1   1   TL: 11

Cargo: 100.000 Passengers: 10 Frozen Watch Fuel: 66.000 EP: 6.000
Agility: 1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 1.621   Cost in Quantity: MCr 129.707

Note:

     Price increased slightly.
     Computer model increased to 3/fib as 2/fib has not enough control
points. I put five HUD onboard one each for gunners,
     Bridge crew and the commander.
     Passenger get normal Staterooms, Crew have individual small
Staterooms
     Power increased to 7.2 EP to cover weapons and agility. Plant split
into a primary and secondary for 30 days normal
     operation, agility 0, and a 3day combat/agility boost
     Added Air/Raft

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:45:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:45:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote Outrim Jade Patrol craft
Message-ID: <3CC92C3E.F65CA749@mindspring.com>

Grote Outrim Jade Class Escort Patrol
    The Outrim Jade class is Grotes answer to the Escort vessel for the
Merchant Fleet. In addition to escorting the legendary
Grotian Black Ships, they can be found patrolling merchant routes or
hunting the occasional transgressor against the sanctity of
the traders.
 Craft ID:    Grote Outrim Jade class patrol vessel, TL 13, 613.028 Mcr,
Quantity discount 551.725 MCr

 Hull:       540/1350, Disp=600, Config=Dome/Disc 6Sl,
Armour=Crystaliron 52E, Loaded=11836.149,
              Unloaded=11377.19

Power:       Primary 29/58, Fusion=3,978 Mw, Duration=30 days, Scoops,
Purifiers 24 Hours
                 Secondary 51/102, Fusion=6,840, Duration=3 days
                 ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=103 days

 Loco:          22/44, Jump=2, 43/86, Maneuver=3G, Agility=0/3

 Comm:          Radio=System x1, Laser=System x 1

 Sensors:          A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1, Hi-pen
Densinometer(1m) x 1, Neutrino(1Gw) x 1
                       Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=F  POP=F
PES=R  PEP=F

 Off:         6 Hardpoints, 6 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  Triple BLaser-7     x 2 in 2 battery
                                      Triple Sand-10      x 2 in 2
battery
                                      Triple Missile-7     x 2 in 2
Battery
                        Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Missile   3    -     -
                                          2
                             Laser     4    -    -
                                          2
                             Sand      4    -    -
                                          2

 Def:         Def DM=9

 Control:          Computer=Model 5fib x 3, Panels=Dynamic Linked x
1323, HUholoD x 9, Large Holodisplay x1

 Accom:      Officer=5 Crew=25 ( Bridge=3 Engineering=4 Gunners=4
Flight=4 Troops=10 Command=4 Stewards=1)
                  Staterooms=5, Small Staterooms=25, Emergency Low
Berths=6, Env=basic env, basic ls,
                  extended ls,  grav plates,  inertial comp, Airlocks x
4

 Subcraft:         Gig x1(20 dton, Crew=3, TL=13)

 Other:          Cargo=215 Kl/15.9 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=3485
Kl/258 tons, ObjSize=Large, Ram time= 2.2 hours


Author: Alan Spik
Adapted from
Ship: Outrim Ruby
Class: Outrim Jade
Type: Escort/Strike Patroller
Architect: Shemp

USP
         EP-66335C2-440000-40003-0 MCr 548.576 600 Tons
Bat Bear             2     2   2   Crew: 25
Bat                     2     2   2   TL: 13

Cargo: 10.000 Emergency Low: 6 Fuel: 210.000 EP: 30.000 Agility: 3
Marines: 10
Craft: 1 x 20T Pinnace
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x 1G Maneuver Drive 1 x Jump 1 Drive 1 x Factor 1 Power Plant
1 x
Model/1 Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 5.486   Cost in Quantity: MCr 438.861

Notes:

      As specified, w/o backups and increasing the power plant to
achieve agility 3 the vessel has a volume deficit of 150
     dtons. I changed the power plant to a primary/Secondary (Normal
operations/Weapons & Screens) power system 30/3
     days total 43+ EP ( With the below changes/notes this brings cargo
to 15.9 tons)
     Computer increased to 5 fib to cover control points
     Crew increased to 30 by crew calculation
     9 HUholoD installed for Gunners, Bridge Crew and some of command
crew. Large holodisplay installed
     Assume Officers are in standard staterooms Crew are in small
Staterooms
     In addition to A-EMS and P-EMS I installed TL appropriate Hi-pen
Densinometer and Neutrino detector
     Price increased
     Pinnaces in the OTU and IMTU are 40 dtons. I substituted a 20 dton
Gig.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote Black Ship
Message-ID: <3CC92D0B.F946A2A4@mindspring.com>

Grote Black Ship
The Grote Black Ship is the 57th century version of the containerized
cargo ship. They make a bee-line to the entrepot system,
stopping only long enough to refuel. In transit to their destination,
Black Ships refuel only at Class A or B ports in trustworthy
systems. Otherwise the escorting vessels act as fuel lighters during
frontier refueling. The wilderness refueling points may be
very distant gas giants, Kuiper belt objects, or random comets. A system
may never know that a Black Ship convoy has
passed through. They hump precious cargo and replacement crew from Grote
to whatever system has been designated the
sector entrepot that year. The clan traders moving along their trade
loops all eventually visit the designated entrepot system to
pick up new crew and high TL goodies. The boost in trade leads systems
in these sectors to compete among each other to host
the Grote entrepot. The Black ship is unusual in that it is built from
high tech parts imported to Grote by

 Craft ID:         Grote Black Ship, TL 13, 2403.599 Mcr, Quantity
discount 2163.239 MCr

 Hull:      6300/15750, Disp=7,000, Config=Irregular 7Usl,
Armour=Superdense 40E, Loaded=76334.002,
              Unloaded=53789.964

 Power:          Primary 125/250, Fusion=16,848 Mw, Duration=30 days,
Scoops, Purifiers 24 Hours
                     Secondary 113/226, Fusion=15210 Mw, Duration=3
Days( Weapons, Screens and Agility)
                     ExtEnd excludes: (1g), =62 days

 Loco:          315/630 Jump=4, 126/252, Maneuver=1G, Agility=0

 Comm:          Radio=System x 1, Laser =System x 1

 Sensors:   A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1, Hi-pen
Densinometer(1m) x 1, Neutrino(1Gw) x 1
                Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=F  POP=F  PES=R  PEP=F

 Off:         70 Hardpoints, 70 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  Triple Laser-13        x 10 in 10
battery
                                      Triple Sand-10      x 30 in 10
battery
                                      Triple Missile-13     x 30 in 3
Battery
                        Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Missile   7    -     -
                                          3
                             Laser     4    -    -
                                           10
                             Sand      6    -    -
                                           10

 Def:         Def DM= 6, Nuclear Damper=F3

 Control:          Computer=Model 6fib x 3, Panels=Holodynamic Linked x
4419, HUholoD x 64, Large holodisplay x 1

 Accom:          Officer=17 Crew=152 ( Bridge=10 Engineering=14
Maintenance=1 Gunners=47 Flight=10 Command=14
                      Stewards=3 Medical=70) Passengers: Low=1400
Staterooms=17 Small Staterooms=152, Low Berths=1400,
                      Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
inertial comp, Airlocks x 14

 Subcraft:         Gig x 1 (20 dton, Crew=3, TLC), Modular Cutter x 2
(50 dton, Crew=2, TLC)

 Other:          Cargo=20375.9 Kl/1509.3 tons, EMLevel=Moderate,
Fuel=30973 Kl/2294 tons, ObjSize=Large

Author: Alan Spik
Created from a discussion with Mr. LE Whipsnade

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:51:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:51:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Grotes Clan Shps
Message-ID: <3CC92DBB.6AA8007C@mindspring.com>

Hi all!
The vessels that follow were converted from LEW's HG2 designs of the
Grote Clan vessels.Or created from discussions concerning Grote and ways
to kill the PC's......I mean make the game more enjoyable.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC96FDE.27660.37E569C@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEGPHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rachel Kronick wrote :

> I think the most interesting aspect of this proposed
> tax is that it  necessitates a definition of what
> exactly "science fiction" is.

Good point.

> Is /Gravity's Rainbow/ SF?  Is /Flowers for Algernon/?

I'd say yes to both personally.

> What about Michael Crichton's stuff?

Yes, definitely. At least Andromeda Strain, and the Jurassic Park
stuff anyway.

> And maybe some drek would be exempted as being science
> fantasy -- the Star Wars franchise, /ID4/, etc.

That's probably the market they want to tax because it's so
profitable!

Would '1984' count as science fiction seeing as it is in the
past?
Or "2001" ?
How about Harry Turtledove's "The Guns of the South" ?
Or Steampunk (like the recent "Wild Wild West"?
And what about Yeats' "Erewhon" ?
Or Swift's "Gulliver's Travels" ?

Is "The Cube" SF or horror ?
How about "Event Horizon", "Pitch Black", or even "Alien"?

Deciding this could keep the US legislators busy for many months.

What a great idea this is, they could then start funding
hospitals with a tax on hospital dramas, and police forces with a
tax on police shows, and prisons with a tax on the Sopranos, and
mental institutions with a tax on "Fraser" (or perhaps any sitcom
for that matter, and those reality TV shows to boot).

> <facetious>
> Good, no more petty squabbling among people who actually read
> the stuff, now we're going to get a nice, clear
> government definition!
> </facetious>

That would probably be the best thing to come from this.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 05:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 04:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <3CC898A7.24874.A0B7D7@localhost>
Message-ID: <20426.032205.4g1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 25 Apr 2002 at 1:34, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
>> > least keep the false positive rate down.
>> 
>> You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
>> entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
>> take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
>> have to be present at the trial *there*. 
>
> Well sue the originating organisation. Then sue 'em for libel in that 
> they spread false infermation about you.

Trouble is, that doesn't work if it's a police department making an
"honest mistake". As I've said, over the years comp.risks has had posts
about a number errors of that sort.

The best you can get from the originating department is for them to fix
*their* records. They are *not* responsible for other departments
picking up the erroneous "want" and sticking it in their own databases.

You really and truly *do* have to sue each and every department,
individually.

Now in the "private mall, using this for security" scenario, then you
have a *much* better chance of winning a suit. But if it's a police
agency, it's a *lot* harder.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 05:21:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 04:21:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <001401c1ecd2$fada91c0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20426.031637.5Y6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>
> <snip>
>
>> Matt Bond wrote:
>> > Assuming the Cutter has already spent 8 G-Hours burning and is coasting
> when
>> > the Broadsword Jumps in at relative rest, just as the Cutter passes it.
>>
>> That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
>> emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.
>
> And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that IMTU
> while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
> calculable duration.

Pardon me for not keeping track of the ways your TU differs from the
OTU over the time that's passed since those posts...

If your TU differs from the "standard" one, then you need to
*explicitly* state applicable differences or live with people assuming
that anything you haven't specificly mentioned works "normally". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 05:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 04:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (OT/spam) FS: TSR's ALTERNITY gamebooks
Message-ID: <200204261140.g3QBeuG09224@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

  FWIW, if anyone is interested in space opera I've getting
rid of a largish collection of TSR's (or WotC - take your 
pick...) ALTERNITY rules and supplemnts, & STARDRIVE and 
DARK MATTER settings. Replies to me, _not_ the TML :)

  Steven Hudson - shudson@lightspeed.ca 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 06:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr 26 05:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise (With my Jump Durat
 ion rules reiterated)
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8B@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> 
> In mail you write:
<snip>
> > And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you 
> would know that IMTU
> > while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a 
> predictable and
> > calculable duration.
> 
> Pardon me for not keeping track of the ways your TU differs from the
> OTU over the time that's passed since those posts...
> 
> If your TU differs from the "standard" one, then you need to
> *explicitly* state applicable differences or live with people assuming
> that anything you haven't specificly mentioned works "normally". 

Well as I had mentioned it detail both in earlier parts of the piracy
thread *and* the astogation thread, I got tired of writing it out in
every post... 

To reiterate:

The only difference in my universe is that rather then rolling jump
duration *after* jump has commenced, and the duration being unknown
until just before emergence, I roll *before* jump, and the duration is
calculable by the astrogator prior to jump starting. Any other vessel
initiating jump from within a few thousand km of the jump intitation
point heading to within a few thousand km of the jump exit poit within a
few hours will have the same duration (to within a few minutes or less).
Jumps to or from diffent points, or at different times will have
different jump durations (ie roll a new duration). 

A skilled astrogator can calculate the jump duration for increasingly
distant start times, and so may be able to identify a quicker jump
duration 'window' occurring in several hours time that will result in
earlier arrival time than jumping immediately (ie roll a number of jump
'window' durations equal to the astrogators skill. Each window is
several hours long (somwhere between 4 and 6 seems appropriate). So you
if you have skill 4 you know *in advance* the jump duration if you jump
now, in 4 hours, 8 hours, 12 hours, or 16 hours time etc. 

Oh, and an 'astrogator' of skill 0 gets no advance rolls, so is stuck
with whatever jump duration he rolls on initiating Jump. He is unskilled
enough to calculate a jump duration before conditions have changed such
that the calculated time is moot. He still knows what time they will
emerge from jump though, as he can caulate the exit time and get the
answer a few hours into the jump as he knows what conditions were on
jump initiation...

What are the benefits of my interpretation of when jump duration is
rolled? Coordinated Fleet Movements and improved value of astrogation
skill. Both of which I find desirable. Downsides to my interpretation?
none that I can think of. I still retain the canonicity of random jump
duration, only my interpretaion of when the random duration is rolled is
different. 

And I'm hard pressed to recall any GDW canon (as opposed to possible
Gurps or DGP canon) which states that the rolled duration is unknown
until exit, just that there is a variable duration to jumps and that
they do not all take 7 days, but instead take roughly 6-8 days and a
roll is made to determine exact duration. Indeed I recall mention in
some GDW products that Fleets can arrive simultaneaously, which must
either mean jump duration is known in advance so that each ship can jump
in staggered intervals to co-ordinate arrival times, or all ships in a
given vicintity at a given time jumping to the same destination have the
same jump duration, or indeed, as I have interpreted it, jump duration
is both known in advance and is constant for a given jump at a given
time.

I await your comments with both bated breath and asbestos undies...

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 08:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 26 07:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On:  Glenn Grant's Smart Fabrics!
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1019830438.0.01037600@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Some years back, there was a discussion on the TML of the use of optic technology to weave a "smart" fabric. It was authored by Glenn Grant with the input of Rob O'Connor, Mikko, and others of this list. The results can be found on our mail host's wonderful Traveller Central website.

Well...

Today, ABCNews.com has posted a story of a Real Life(tm) fabric fiber (fibre, for those across the pond) that incorporates optic technology. The story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/CuttingEdge/cuttingedge020426.html

The team that developed the new fiber/fibre is part of the new Institute for Soldier Nanotechnology at MIT. Cost of the process is 10 U.S. cents per meter.

Reflec, anyone? 

I know, I know. We may not be there yet, but...

David Smart
("We Want Jumpdrive! We Want Jumpdrive!")

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 08:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 26 07:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Message-ID: <F257P5o7P6umLrXWq0G0000075e@hotmail.com>

From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>

     "The vessels that follow were converted from LEW's HG2 designs of the 
Grote Clan vessels.  Or created from discussions concerning Grote and ways 
to kill the PC's... I mean make the game more enjoyable."


Ladies and Gentlemen,

     I do hope you enjoy Mr. Spik's masterful MT conversions of two ships 
from a long ago campaign.  I know I have.
     His efforts gave me a new appreciation of MT's ship design rules.  I 
would have never thought it possible to do what he has done.
     For those of you who may be interested, here's a little background on 
the (supposed) thought processes that went into the original designs.

     Both the Trader and Patroller first saw life as Book2 designs.  In the 
case of the Trader, interpolation of the hull and engineering tabels was 
required.  The jump between Book2 and HG2 presented little difficulty.
     The Trader was an attempt to fashion a jump2 Beowulf.  The Patroller 
was an attempt to create a more "manageable" Broadsword.  While both vessels 
"fit" into a Whipsnadian TU, whether they could actually work in other TU's 
is debatable.  You can already see the problems one has recreating them in 
MT terms, whether they can built in FF&S1/2 or GT is unknown.  Indeed, 
whether the Trader can break even in GT:FT is unknown.
     In the few campaigns in which they they appeared, I never bothered to 
fully detail the Black Ships.  The PCs never served aboard one, visited one, 
or saw one, except at a great distance.  The Black Ships were a bit of 
background "chrome", like the omnipresent, but rarely seen, megacorp 
megafreighters.  Mr. Spik's wonderful design for the Black Ships now resides 
permanently on my hard drive and back-up discs.


     Flexiable Batteries

     I should also fill you in on a Whipsnadian house rule regarding 
batteries.  A flexiable battery structure was part of my campaign, 
especially aboard naval and PC-crewed vessels.  Put simply, during each 
combat round similiarly armed turrets could be grouped into batteries as the 
players saw fit.  Thus turrets can be split up into whichever battery 
grouping the PCs deem fit for the situation.  All the laser turrets can be 
consolidated for a better offensive strike or parceled out for more 
anti-missile chances.  You can combine several missile turrets into a more 
powerful salvo or split them into smaller salvos to swamp any anti-missile 
fire.
     In the case of the Outrim Jade, which sports two turrets with 3 beam 
lasers apiece, that vessel could either fire a single battery with an USP 
rating of 5 (6 lasers for 4, with +1 TL13 bonus) or two batteries with USP 
ratings of 4 (3 lasers apiece for 3, with the +1 TL13 bonus).  Obviously the 
missile turrets and sandcasters can be "flexed" in the same manner.
     Software, hardware, and manning requirements for the batteries/turrets 
gets a little squirrelly.  By GM fiat, I simply decreed that naval vessels 
had the software, hardware, and personnel necessary to "flex" their 
batteries into any configuration desired.  Getting the necessary software 
and hardware to do the same was a campaign goal for my PCs.  IIRC, I forced 
the PCs to set aside ~0.25 dT per turret for the mechanical end of things, 
plus another 1 dT on the bridge.
     The software costs were handled by requiring them to purchase all new 
offensive and defensive programming for the weapon types and abilities they 
wished to "flex".  Thus, to flex missile turrets they'd need both a new 
launch and target program.  To add gunner skills to the flexed batteries, a 
new interact program would be required.  To perform flexed anti-missile 
fire, a new program for that.  And so forth.
     Manning requires a bit more explanation.  Obviously, any turret used 
alone requires a gunner.  But only one gunner is needed for any battery.  To 
further confuse matters, any battery consisting of any number of turrets 
could be fired from a specific bridge station by a crewmember dedicated to 
that task for that combat round.
     Taking the Outrim Jade as an example; that vessel has two triple laser 
turrets.  One turret could be fired alone locally or in a battery from 
either the bridge or one of the turrets in that battery.  The gunner 
performing that action would be unable to do anything else during that 
combat round, i.e. DC work.
     This bit of Whipsnadian silliness also allowed the PCs to put gunnery 
skills to better use.  A PC with a high gunnery skill need not be shackled 
to a particular turret.  Instead, she could man a bridge station and take 
command of specific turrets or batteries depending on the situation.  My PCs 
seemed to enjoy the "extra" control in combat situations and it's all about 
having fun, right?

     I'm sure all of this will excite comments, mostly along the lines of 
"You're really #&$@#&$ nuts, Larsen", and I look forward to hearing them.  
Unfortunately, I will be away until late Sunday on business.  If your 
comments go unremarked over the next 72 hours, that is the reason why.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 09:12:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 08:12:44 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020425223624.044bbc10@rollanet.org>
References: <F182WZbQLbzjADMBLxt00008700@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426075429.009ed120@mindspring.com>

At 10:49 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
> From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry 
> (copyright 1968)
>
>     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
> only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
> goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
> Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer."

An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS.

Of course, it goes along nicely with ST's socialist view.. in the Soviet 
military all the technical jobs were held by officers.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 09:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 26 08:53:04 2002
Subject: Ship's weapons (was Re: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?)
Message-ID: <12b.105c4b92.29fad1cc@aol.com>

--part1_12b.105c4b92.29fad1cc_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 4/26/02 2:10:03 AM Central Daylight Time, several 
anti-Meson opinions get flexed:
> 
> > I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
> > really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.
> 

That is a pretty good question, isn't it?  
   In its nondestructive form, it can be manipulated to be used as both an 
undetectable _and_ unjammable communications source, while in its _far_ more 
popular (and destructive) application, it can be manipulated in such a way as 
to entirely _bypass_ an otherwise solid hull to magically cause explosions 
_inside_ a target.
   The entire "it just does" concept (talk about handwaving) associated with 
Meson Technology has never sat right with me, and I've never used it IMTU.
   So the above question, along with several different takes on Starship 
Combat and weaponry on the web, got me to wondering about just _what_ 
technologies (whether canon or not) folks use or don't use.
   Illuminate me :)

  -Ken Murphy-
   
"When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer 
for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out 
of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God 
Almighty have mercy on you!" 

Legion of the Damned
Sven Hassel   


--part1_12b.105c4b92.29fad1cc_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/26/02 2:10:03 AM Central Daylight Time, several anti-Meson opinions get flexed:
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BR>&gt; I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
<BR>&gt; really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>That is a pretty good question, isn't it? &nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;In its nondestructive form, it can be manipulated to be used as both an undetectable _and_ unjammable communications source, while in its _far_ more popular (and destructive) application, it can be manipulated in such a way as to entirely _bypass_ an otherwise solid hull to magically cause explosions _inside_ a target.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">The entire "it just does" concept (talk about handwaving) associated with Meson Technology has never sat right with me, and I've never used it IMTU.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;So the above question, along with several different takes on Starship Combat and weaponry on the web, got me to wondering about just _what_ technologies (whether canon or not) folks use or don't use.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Illuminate me :)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR><P ALIGN=CENTER>"When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God Almighty have mercy on you!" 
<BR><P ALIGN=LEFT>
<BR>Legion of the Damned
<BR>Sven Hassel &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></P></P></FONT></HTML>

--part1_12b.105c4b92.29fad1cc_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 10:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Apr 26 09:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise (With my Jump Durat ion rules reiterated)
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8B@KARPAD01>
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8B@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <m3d6wmv36q.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> Downsides to my interpretation?  None that I can think of.

I like it in many ways, but it does means that a certain element of
adventure is removed.  That is, imagine that the Flying Wallenda is
fleeing Glisten with a jump-capable patrol boat just behind.  The
Wallenda makes it to 100D and jumps.  The patrol boat--knowing where
the Wallenda is jumping--makes the same jump, and they come out of
J-space at the same time.

Whereas in the traditional interpretation, they come out several hours
apart from one another in the average case.  Which is not a bad thing
for the Wallenda.

-- 
<+>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 10:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Apr 26 09:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
In-Reply-To: <F257P5o7P6umLrXWq0G0000075e@hotmail.com>
References: <F257P5o7P6umLrXWq0G0000075e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m38z7av321.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>      Flexiable Batteries

Brilliant!  I love it.  This should become part of canon, methinks.

-- 
<+>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 10:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 09:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019839692.4851.ajackson@ping>

Frank Pitt writes:
> 
> Oh, I don't know. If I was "in the field" I would be more
> concerned about my personal survival than the rest of the unit,
> and if the others were smokers that makes them bigger targets
> than I, presumably increasing my chances of survival!

Nah.  Increasing your chances of becoming collateral damage of shooting at
them.
> 
> I always remember the surprise I got when it was demonstratd to
> me that a person taking even a clandestine puff on a
> hand-shielded cigarette can be seen from over 2kms with the naked
> eye in the dark. The flare of a lit match is even more visible.

Interesting.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 11:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 10:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <3CC988C2.7060505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Frank Pitt wrote:

> Oh, I don't know. If I was "in the field" I would be more
> concerned about my personal survival than the rest of the unit,
> and if the others were smokers that makes them bigger targets
> than I, presumably increasing my chances of survival!
> <grin>

Only if the other side are snipers and not arty, or air support.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 11:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Apr 26 10:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
Message-ID: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>

> From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:20:51 -0500
> Subject: [TML] second verse same as the first Chameleon
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>
> --Message-Boundary-8302
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-disposition: inline
> Content-description: Attachment information.
>
> The following section of this message contains a file attachment

Shadowcat,

Please stop sending attachements. It fucks up the digest. If the file
you are sending is plain text the easiest way for it to be viewable
by all is to "copy all" from the source file and "paste" into the body 
of the email. If your source file is a binary it shouldn't be sent to
the mailing list at all.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 12:14:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 26 11:14:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEJGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
>entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
>take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
>have to be present at the trial *there*.

That's why we have class actions and contingency fee arrangements.  Whoever
gets misidentified first, please call me.  I'm pretty well connected to both
the police abuse and class action bars.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 12:36:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Fri Apr 26 11:36:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
In-Reply-To: <20020426125234.A14613@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204262034490.309178-100000@svati>

On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

>Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>> How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy
>> stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other
>> supplies and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require
>> PRECISE enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the
>> constant risk of possible allergens from all those plants wafting
>> their way through the ventilation system...
>
>Oy!  Stop giving my GM nasty ideas!

No, no Mr. Whipsnade! Don't listen to Tim, hsi GM likes the nasty
ideas :-)

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 12:40:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr 26 11:40:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
In-Reply-To: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEINDMAA.tml@downport.com>

He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't even know
it was happening. To fix the problem we are posting his ships on a web site
and he will just post the URL. If he can get GTS and Pegasus both to
cooperated, he may post plain text in the body of his messages. Here is the
URL again:

http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd

More GT ships and a load of High Guard designs are uploading... oop, done!
_____________________________________________
The Traveller Web Portal
http://www.downport.com
webmaster@downport.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of David Shayne
> Shadowcat,
>
> Please stop sending attachements.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 13:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Fri Apr 26 12:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
Message-ID: <l03010d02b8ef54d1ed86@[206.224.92.67]>

Two items I thought the folks here might be interested in:

The GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set:

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/anniversaryset/

And the 25th anniversary limited edition hardback: Only one press run,
limited to pre-orders. The cover is black bonded leather, foil stamped with
the Traveller 25th-anniversary seal. A special full-color art page is bound
into the front with the signatures.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/core/

You can make reservations for the hardback for the three weeks prior to its
release, contact orders@sjgames.com for details and an estimated date of
publication.



Loren Wiseman
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/
     SJ Games
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 13:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Apr 26 12:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
References: <20020426190109.0A0CC279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC9A9F9.B79CECC2@ameritech.net>




> From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>

> Subject: RE: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
> Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:38:25 -0400
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't even know
> it was happening. To fix the problem we are posting his ships on a web site
> and he will just post the URL. 

An admirable solution.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 14:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 26 13:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1019852076.0.55530000@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Frankie posted:
>
> Deciding this could keep the US legislators busy for many months.
>
> What a great idea this is, they could then start funding
> hospitals with a tax on hospital dramas, and police forces with a
> tax on police shows, and prisons with a tax on the Sopranos, and
> mental institutions with a tax on "Fraser" (or perhaps any sitcom
> for that matter, and those reality TV shows to boot).

Personally, I'd like to see our wonderfully competent and effective Congress have their salaries tied to taxes received from their episodes on C-SPAN.

The thought of them having to come up with ways to capture and hold the common person's interest in Congressional legislative activities that Congress really doesn't want general oversight on tickles me to no end.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 15:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 14:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
In-Reply-To: <l03010d02b8ef54d1ed86@[206.224.92.67]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426145538.009eabf0@mindspring.com>

At 02:07 PM 4/26/02 -0500, you wrote:
>The GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set:
>
>http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/anniversaryset/
>
>And the 25th anniversary limited edition hardback: Only one press run,
>limited to pre-orders. The cover is black bonded leather, foil stamped with
>the Traveller 25th-anniversary seal. A special full-color art page is bound
>into the front with the signatures.

Argh.  You would put this out two weeks after I go on disability.

Anyway, trying to justify buying three products I already own to my wife 
would result in temperatures similar to those found on Pluto.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 16:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 15:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEINDMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426150540.009fcec0@mindspring.com>

At 02:38 PM 4/26/02 -0400, you wrote:
>He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't even know
>it was happening. To fix the problem we are posting his ships on a web site
>and he will just post the URL. If he can get GTS and Pegasus both to
>cooperated, he may post plain text in the body of his messages. Here is the
>URL again:
>
>http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd
>
>More GT ships and a load of High Guard designs are uploading... oop, done!

Very nice!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 16:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 15:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
References: <l03010d02b8ef54d1ed86@[206.224.92.67]>
Message-ID: <3CC9DB27.6010501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Loren Wiseman wrote:

> http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/core/

Am I the only one here who went 'All RIGHT! A Core sourcebook!' only to 
be dissapointed?

(I mean the leather-bound 25th anniversary one was the first Kewl thing, 
right?)

No offense Loren, but for a moment, I thought 'The richest, most 
powerful worlds in the Imperium...it's very *heart* ... what a place!'

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 17:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 16:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426145538.009eabf0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC9DCEE.8BAC6647@mindspring.com>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 02:07 PM 4/26/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >The GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set:
> >
> >http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/anniversaryset/
> >
> >And the 25th anniversary limited edition hardback: Only one press run,
> >limited to pre-orders. The cover is black bonded leather, foil stamped with
> >the Traveller 25th-anniversary seal. A special full-color art page is bound
> >into the front with the signatures.
>
> Argh.  You would put this out two weeks after I go on disability.
>
> Anyway, trying to justify buying three products I already own to my wife
> would result in temperatures similar to those found on Pluto.
>
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Don't justify, rationalize. If that doesn't work swoon a little, then make her
go whoo-whoo. Works like a charm. ;)


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 26 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Message-ID: <16f.cbfbaed.29fb394e@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>>     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>> only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
>> goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
officer."
>
>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
TOS.

Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 18:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 26 17:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEINDMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <3CCA95A1.17493.79C160@localhost>

On 26 Apr 2002 at 14:38, Swordy wrote:

> He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't
> even know it was happening. 

Interesting. I use Pegasus and haven't had any complaints about that 
sort of thing. I found it really easy to turn off all the non 7-bit 
ASCII stuff.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 18:54:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri Apr 26 17:54:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Bruce Johnson writes:
>Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here,
>comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.
>
>You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via
>your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of
>false positives and false negatives.
>
>That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously,
>which means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched
>erroneously.

OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics, so
please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the odds
that the system will think I am? And if I am in the database, what are the
odds that the system will fail to recognize me?



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 19:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri Apr 26 18:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20020426070904.349CA27AFF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270302500.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Matthew Bond writes:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>
>>That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
>>emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.
>
>And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that IMTU
>while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
>calculable duration.

Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_ TU,
but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the OTU.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 19:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri Apr 26 18:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
References: <20020425052154.B00C227A9C@mail.travellercentral.com> <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC9FD69.B9D10187@premier.net>


David Smart wrote:
> 
> Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> very, very large capital ships?
> 
> I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
> spinal mounts.
> 
> I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
> sharing.
> 
> By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
> TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

I forwarded copies of three TL-15 battleships to David Smart. 
_Montana_, a 500,000 dton NPAW-armed ship; _Jean Bart_, a meson-armed
variant of _Montana_; and _Shiva_, a 1,000,000 dton NPAW-armed
behemoth.  All of these ships have been posted to the TML in the past.

Now, does anyone want me to repost them to the list?  Alternately, does
anyone simply want a copy sent to them?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 19:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 26 18:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020427114011.A16950@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics,
> so please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the
> odds that the system will think I am?

That depends upon the threshold they set, the lighting conditions, the
degree of similarity you have to the closest people in the database,
what you're wearing around your head and/or face, whether you've got a
cold (or whether the people in the database had one!), and many other
factors.  Then add in the probability that your image is in the
database by mistake.

You could think of 4% as being the *minimum* chance you'll be
misidentified as a miscreant.


> And if I am in the database, what are the odds that the system will
> fail to recognize me?

See all of the above, and add in whether you're actually trying to
avoid detection.  If it's raining, water on the face is probably an
excellent way to throw off feature detection; most contour-detection
systems respond *very* badly to having numerous glints in the salient
regions.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 21:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 20:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
In-Reply-To: <3CC9DCEE.8BAC6647@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426145538.009eabf0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426200839.009f7940@mindspring.com>

At 07:04 PM 4/26/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Don't justify, rationalize. If that doesn't work swoon a little, then make her
>go whoo-whoo. Works like a charm. ;)

Remember that I'm currently writing.. this means that our office is covered 
in piles of books, notes, and things labeled "Do not move this! Penalty is 
death or six hours of Dylan on the stereo! - The Genius"  The monitor has 
about three dozen cryptic Post-It notes with things like "D. Colhoun - 
stats? b-date?"  "Template for Flor." and "Rewrite K, L and M" (which is 
amusing when asked me why I was re-writing three Muni Metro lines.. )Also, 
her time on the computer is being interrupted by me racing in from  other 
rooms shouting "Start Word!  Move!  Must write sidebar!"  (Most of the time 
I get these bursts of inspiration in the shower...)

In short, her tolerance of GURPS, Traveller, and me are at low points right 
now.  :)

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                    - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 22:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr 26 21:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270302500.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <001d01c1eda0$cf53a400$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 2:11 AM
Subject: [TML] Re: Assumptions in Piracy Exercise


> Matthew Bond writes:
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> >
> >>That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
> >>emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.
> >
> >And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that
IMTU
> >while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
> >calculable duration.
>
> Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
> from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_ TU,
> but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the OTU.

Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump Duration
is unknowable until immediately prior to exit. And remember that DGP is not
Official Canon.

I can find no such reference in the books I find close to hand: Bk2, Bk5,
Gurps:Traveller... only a reference to the fact that jumps take respectively
1 week, 150-175 hours, and 168 hours +/- 0 to 10%...

And indeed, IMTU Jump duration is variable around 1 week. So show me where I
contradict canon. Just because my *interpretation* of the canon does not
coincide with yours does not necessarily mean that mine is any less valid,
even if many others share your view.

And in any case, the OTU explicitly includes piracy so surely any
interpretation of canon that aids in the existence of piracy must therefore
be welcomed with open arms under your apparent criteria for valid
discussion.

And If it transpires there is an explicit canon dictum that invalidates my
interpretation, then I offer my most profuse apologies for sullying the
value of this debate to you as a result of my asking how piracy could be
eradicated in my apparently perverse aberration of a traveller universe. I
will then henceforth only regale the list with verbatim quotation of
scripture^H^H^H^H canon no matter how internally inconsistent it may be! The
Gospel according to the Saint Marc is the very Word of God revealed to us
and I shall blaspheme no more...

Or not.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 22:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 21:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b8ee2476727f@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20426.212105.4Q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 2:35 PM -0400 4/25/02, Mark Urbin wrote:
>>Follow it with a 1% tax on art books, art supplies, and the sale of 
>>art (records, tapes, movie tickets, paintings, etc.) to fund federal 
>>art projects.
>
> I'm not sure these sort of things are such a bad idea.  It would tie 
> the projects in better with their constituencies.  For example, the 
> SF tax would give NASA funding from a source that puts a priority on 
> its activities and give those who are interested in space research 
> more results.  (And people are more tolerant of taxes that go to 
> specific things they support).

And just *how* long do you think it'd be before the money was diverted
to pet projects of influential Congress critters?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 23:01:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 22:01:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20426.212031.6T4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
>> plan
>> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
>> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
>> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
>> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
>> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
>> to "space,
>> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
>
> Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want to help make
> those dreams come true.

Then why is the money going to NASA?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 00:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 23:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <20020426080850.A14241@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20426.224425.6p0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Actually, it's the method ised by floppy *and* hard disk controllers
>> for just about everything. GCR and all the rest of that was only used
>> by Apple and Commodore.
>
> Yes, and wasn't even used in the Commodore Amiga.  It *could* read and
> write GCR, but at single density.  (The GCR encoding method looks
> better on paper, 4 bits out of 5, but is inherently lower-density for
> a given magnetic coercivity of medium.)
>
>
>> No, at the *hardware* level, it's still sectors and tracks.
>
> Not even that: at the *hardware* level, it's a sequence of magnetic
> polarity changes.  Software (or firmware) groups them into sectors and
> tracks.  The Amiga didn't have a firmware sector decoder; it read
> tracks in as '0' for no polarity change at the appropriate time, and
> '1' if there was.  The MFM decoding, sector recognition, and error
> checking was done in software -- by the CPU normally, but I wrote a
> driver that used the "Agnes" GPU instead.

Well, the FM/MFM decoding is part of the FDC *chip* ever since the WD
1771 chip in 1977.

>> *If* Commodore had used FM and MFM encoding on the disks, rather than
>> GCR (basicly a different way of modulating the signal that represents
>> the bitstream on the media), then all it'd take to read a C-64 disk on
>> a PC would be some fancy software. 
>
> As it is, most modern FDD controllers have MFM decoding and sector
> recognition in firmware or hardware, so you can't do GCR reading
> without changing chips.  However: there are software tricks by which
> you can read *most* low-density GCR in an MFM drive (as in recover 90%
> or so of the bits) so long as the drive hardware isn't too "smart" and
> refuses to read what it thinks is a damaged sector.  Lower-density GCR
> comes out with a predictable pattern of bits after MFM 'decoding'.
> The only problem is loss of synchronization in low-quality drives.

Well, as I noted, I have an old CopyIIPC option board. It goes between
the drive and the FDC board.

> I believe the Mac uses variable-speed drive hardware as well as GCR,
> so this trick won't work with Mac disks.  (At least, they did 10 years
> ago when I last played around with these things!)

Well, as I recall, the CopyIIPC board can read Macs somehow.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 03:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Apr 27 02:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk> <20020427114011.A16950@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <003601c1edd1$23d16dc0$3d9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


>
> See all of the above, and add in whether you're actually trying to
> avoid detection.  If it's raining, water on the face is probably an
> excellent way to throw off feature detection; most contour-detection
> systems respond *very* badly to having numerous glints in the salient
> regions.
>

The way a person moves is as distinctive as a fingerprint. Visual systems
exist that can identify a person by their biomechanics, with about the same
failure rate.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 04:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr 27 03:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <003601c1edd1$23d16dc0$3d9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk> <20020427114011.A16950@freeman.little-possums.net> <003601c1edd1$23d16dc0$3d9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020427203514.D17780@freeman.little-possums.net>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> The way a person moves is as distinctive as a fingerprint. Visual
> systems exist that can identify a person by their biomechanics, with
> about the same failure rate.

It seems much progress has been made in the last year or so, then.
The most recent time I looked at them, they required sensors or
reflectors to be attached at defined positions on the body for any
reasonable rate of success at all.  Has that requirement been
eliminated?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 05:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 04:12:02 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
Message-ID: <d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163@aol.com>

--part1_d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 4/26/02 11:16:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gridlore@mindspring.com writes:


> At 10:49 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry 
> > (copyright 1968)
> >
> >     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
> > only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
> > goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
> > Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
> officer."
> 
> An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
> TOS.
> 
> Of course, it goes along nicely with ST's socialist view.. in the Soviet 
> military all the technical jobs were held by officers.
> 
> 

I disagree that the use of the titles "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS implies 
that there were enlisted personnel on the Constitution class starships of 
that era. Roddenberry said in the book cited earlier that there were no 
enlisted onboard the ENTERPRISE. The references to "yeoman" and "chief" 
probably meant the jobs they held aboard the ENTERPRISE rather than their 
actual rank. 

Let us not forget that in the context of TOS we are talking about 
approximately I believe 12 to 13 ships with crews between 200 to 430 
personnel, upward to 5,000 + personnel out of an organization that was 
staffing assumedly a fleet of support ships and a dozen or more full service 
bases, and according to one TOS episode up to 1,000 outposts and/or space 
stations. As pointed out earlier, the ENTERPRISE and her sister ships were 
supposed to be the elite of the elite. I do not find it unbelievable that we 
would have strictly "commissioned officers" staff such vessels under those 
conditions. Lets look at Chief O'Brien too, he did not become and official 
enlisted man until he stepped down from his vaulted position on the 
ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on Deep Space Nine. Now admittedly there is 
nothing canon saying that a person can move between so-called enlisted 
positions and commissioned officers positions during their career (although 
it even happens in real life - I new a guy in Korea that was a captain in the 
army reserve, went active as noncommissioned officer) but if only the best 
are crewing the starships, then maybe a person in the enlighted 24th century 
Starfleet could have the extra prestige of being "commissioned" when in space 
but "enlisted" when assigned to mundane duties station or planet side. 

Who knows? I certainly do not, but I resist the natural tendency to 
automatically assume that Starfleet is a 19th/20th century military 
bureaucracy and not a fluid, enlightened civil service organization that 
celebrates diversity and individual accomplishment. 


Bob Range
"The Human Adventure is just beginning." Gene Roddenberry, 1979

--part1_d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 4/26/02 11:16:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gridlore@mindspring.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">At 10:49 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
<BR>&gt; From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield &amp; Gene Roddenberry 
<BR>&gt; (copyright 1968)
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
<BR>&gt; only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
<BR>&gt; goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
<BR>&gt; Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer."
<BR>
<BR>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS.
<BR>
<BR>Of course, it goes along nicely with ST's socialist view.. in the Soviet 
<BR>military all the technical jobs were held by officers.
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>I disagree that the use of the titles "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS implies that there were enlisted personnel on the Constitution class starships of that era. Roddenberry said in the book cited earlier that there were no enlisted onboard the ENTERPRISE. The references to "yeoman" and "chief" probably meant the jobs they held aboard the ENTERPRISE rather than their actual rank. 
<BR>
<BR>Let us not forget that in the context of TOS we are talking about approximately I believe 12 to 13 ships with crews between 200 to 430 personnel, upward to 5,000 + personnel out of an organization that was staffing assumedly a fleet of support ships and a dozen or more full service bases, and according to one TOS episode up to 1,000 outposts and/or space stations. As pointed out earlier, the ENTERPRISE and her sister ships were supposed to be the elite of the elite. I do not find it unbelievable that we would have strictly "commissioned officers" staff such vessels under those conditions. Lets look at Chief O'Brien too, he did not become and official enlisted man until he stepped down from his vaulted position on the ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on Deep Space Nine. Now admittedly there is nothing canon saying that a person can move between so-called enlisted positions and commissioned officers positions during their career (although it even happens in real life - I new a guy in Korea that was a captain in the army reserve, went active as noncommissioned officer) but if only the best are crewing the starships, then maybe a person in the enlighted 24th century Starfleet could have the extra prestige of being "commissioned" when in space but "enlisted" when assigned to mundane duties station or planet side. 
<BR>
<BR>Who knows? I certainly do not, but I resist the natural tendency to automatically assume that Starfleet is a 19th/20th century military bureaucracy and not a fluid, enlightened civil service organization that celebrates diversity and individual accomplishment. 
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Brush Script" LANG="0"><I>Bob Range</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="BernhardFashion BT" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Brush Script" LANG="0">"The Human Adventure is just beginning." Gene Roddenberry, 1979</I></FONT></HTML>

--part1_d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 05:15:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat Apr 27 04:15:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest (yes, just the digest!)
In-Reply-To: <20020425183523.109AF27990@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c1eddc$a474f180$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

The digest is back to not doing anything to MIME'd messages. I've noticed a
few coming through with all the HTML in it, but recently a couple of
messages have come through with attachments encoded so comprehensively that
the message is incomprehensible.

As an example, here's a message from Shadowcat that I've just come across
from in the digest...

> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #443 - 23 msgs
<Snip>
> Message: 18
> From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:12:24 -0500
> Subject: [TML] whoops, heres the ship
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> Content-description: Mail message body
>
>
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-disposition: inline
> Content-description: Attachment information.
>
> The following section of this message contains a file attachment
> prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
> If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system,
> you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
>
>    ---- File information -----------
>      File:  TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class Commerce Raider.htm
>      Date:  20 Mar 2001, 21:38
>      Size:  4748 bytes.
>      Type:  HTML-text
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736
> Content-type: Text/HTML; name="TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class
> Commerce Raider.htm"
> Content-disposition: attachment; filename="TL12 800-ton
> Chameleon-class Commerce Raider.htm"
> Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64
>
> PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcm
> Fuc2l0aW9u

<Snipped lots of BASE64 encoded stuff>

> eXJpZ2h0IKkgMjAwMCBieSBDVCBDb252ZXJzaW9uDQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo=
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736--
>

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi                      AndyLong@BigPond.com
 United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
                                +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 05:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat Apr 27 04:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Missed digest No. 438
Message-ID: <000701c1eddf$23468a80$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

Could some friendly soul please send me a copy of digest number 438?

Thanks in advance, Andy

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi                      AndyLong@BigPond.com	   	
 United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
                                +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260858570.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <3CCA8AF0.23335.3C507B0@localhost>

<snip>
>  Policing the area is a problem for cig smokers. The cigar smokers I knew
> would save the stub. Don'T remember the correct word. I smoked a pipe and
> all I needed to do was spead and cover the ash.

The word for the remains at the bottom of the pipe is "dottle".

Sinbad Sam
Former Pipe Smoker

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 10:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <b9.1fb0d3cc.29fc3384@aol.com>

John Groth writes:

>I forwarded copies of three TL-15 battleships to David Smart. 
>_Montana_, a 500,000 dton NPAW-armed ship; _Jean Bart_, a meson-armed
>variant of _Montana_; and _Shiva_, a 1,000,000 dton NPAW-armed
>behemoth.  All of these ships have been posted to the TML in the past.
>
>Now, does anyone want me to repost them to the list?  Alternately, does
>anyone simply want a copy sent to them?

And disrupt the TML's carefully smothered signal-to-noise ratio? Are you Mad?

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 14:24:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 27 13:24:06 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/27/02 4:11 AM, Olegamer@aol.com at Olegamer@aol.com wrote:
(Note:  I had to de-style this text, so quoting is ugly.  Please use plain
text on this list)


<quote>
I disagree that the use of the titles "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS implies
that there were enlisted personnel on the Constitution class starships of
that era. Roddenberry said in the book cited earlier that there were no
enlisted onboard the ENTERPRISE. The references to "yeoman" and "chief"
probably meant the jobs they held aboard the ENTERPRISE rather than their
actual rank. 
</quote>

I think that is should be remembered that Roddenberry came out of
commercial aviation IIRC.  An airliner, or a modern spacecraft is a very
different beast than a long duration exploration and paramilitary craft.
The 'enlisted' part of the crews in each essentially stay on the ground
while the officer pilots operate the vessel on short term flights.

I think RAH got it right when he used his own naval background is laying out
the crew structure of a star ship.  It more correctly reflects the type of
personnel and their duties aboard ship.

One also has to consider that Hollywood is a very different place.  Their
understanding of 'rank' is pretty detached from the real world.  After all,
while a directory may 'command' a TV program or movie, a 'star' can derail
to whole process if he or she doesn't get what they want.  So there's a
built in fiction that everybody is equally important and necessary, and that
no one is really above someone else (excluding extras, of course, who aren't
really people anyway)

<quote>
Let us not forget that in the context of TOS we are talking about
approximately I believe 12 to 13 ships with crews between 200 to 430
personnel, upward to 5,000 + personnel out of an organization that was
staffing assumedly a fleet of support ships and a dozen or more full service
bases, and according to one TOS episode up to 1,000 outposts and/or space
stations. As pointed out earlier, the ENTERPRISE and her sister ships were
supposed to be the elite of the elite.
</quote>

Why is this germane?  The SAS, Delta Force and other military elite units
are the creme de la creme of their respective armies.  They still reflect
the same rank structure as the military at large.  True, there are no
privates, but the enlisted still make up the majority of these units and do
the actual real work.

I think that al lot of this confusions is caused by most civilians view NCOs
and enlisted as 'not as good as' officers.  They don't understand the
difference between the two and their roles. Civilians, when they picture
themselves in uniform, almost invariably see themselves as officers.  The
truth is that many wouldn't like it.  My own experience is that as an
officer, you miss out on a lot of the 'fun'.  You are now an planner,
administrator and manager once you get past the lowest ranks.  The Buck
sergeants, corporals and specialists get to do all the fun stuff like shoot
the machine guns, pull the cannon lanyards and such  You never see Rambo or
those other elite commando types doing paperwork, writing evaluations and
all that crap.  Stuff I spent a lot of time doing after I was comissioned.

<quote>
I do not find it unbelievable that we would have strictly "commissioned
officers" staff such vessels under those conditions. Lets look at Chief
O'Brien too, he did not become and official enlisted man until he stepped
down from his vaulted position on the ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on
Deep Space Nine. 
</quote>

Again, I think this show a misunderstanding of what officers actually do in
the service (The exception being pilots, although the Army has Warrant
Officers for that.)  And I recall at least on episode of TNG, "Drumhead"
that involved the court martial of an enlisted crewman of the Enterprise, so
there must be some enlisted.

<quote>
Now admittedly there is nothing canon saying that a person can move between
so-called enlisted positions and commissioned officers positions during
their career (although it even happens in real life - I new a guy in Korea
that was a captain in the army reserve, went active as noncommissioned
officer) 
</quote>

This has to do with how long the person had been inactive.  When I was in
the 104th TNG, we has a lot of Drill Sergeants who were former officers
during Vietnam who got back into the reserves to earn those pensions.

<quote>
but if only the best are crewing the starships, then maybe a person in the
enlighted 24th century Starfleet could have the extra prestige of being
"commissioned" when in space but "enlisted" when assigned to mundane duties
station or planet side.
</quote>

See my comments about elite above.  Why do civilians view officers as being
'better' than enlisted.  They're not.  They just are different.  Someone has
to do the planning, paperwork and administration.  Somebody also has to do
the actual work.  

<quote>
Who knows? I certainly do not, but I resist the natural tendency to
automatically assume that Starfleet is a 19th/20th century military
bureaucracy and not a fluid, enlightened civil service organization that
celebrates diversity and individual accomplishment.
</quote>

I attempt not to gag.  Show me one single large organization that does not
have a rigidly defined hierarchy and still gets anything done.  Particularly
one that operates for long periods of time without interaction with society
at large.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 14:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Apr 27 13:49:02 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3r8l0j2cy.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
> And I recall at least on episode of TNG, "Drumhead" that involved
> the court martial of an enlisted crewman of the Enterprise, so there
> must be some enlisted.

Like so much else in ST, the existence of something as a plot device
in one episode does not mean that in exists at all in any other.  I
believe that the writers took Emerson's dictum a bit too seriously...

-- 
<+> Veni, vidi, vici
    Whinny, weedy, weaky
    Which sounds better?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 15:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Apr 27 14:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <b9.1fb0d3cc.29fc3384@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCENNGNAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Don't you mean noise to signal ration????


jml

And disrupt the TML's carefully smothered signal-to-noise ratio? Are you
Mad?

GC
_______________________________________________
T


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 15:45:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat Apr 27 14:45:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3CCB1CC6.60408@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
>>Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here,
>>comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.
>>
>>You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via
>>your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of
>>false positives and false negatives.
>>
>>That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously,
>>which means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched
>>erroneously.
> 
> 
> OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics, so
> please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the odds
> that the system will think I am? And if I am in the database, what are the
> odds that the system will fail to recognize me?

Same odds, no matter what: 1 in 25.

Leonard posted these numbers earlier, but here goes.

Assumption: you have a population of 10000 people, who may or may not be 
part of a database of 50 bad guys. (0.5% of the population)

4% failure rate means that in 4% of the cases, software fails to 
discriminate properly. (they did not give separate false positive and 
false egative error rates)

If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
member.

10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
correctly ID'ed.

50 bad guys * 0.04 = 2 false negatives in 10,000 examinations. 48 
correctly ID'ed

The only way to decrease the number of innocent people accused is either 
to increase the accuracy or increase the criminal population :-/

Notice, this analysis cannot really show how many criminals you will 
catch, becasue we don't know the distribution of criminals in the 
scanned population.

The above analysis actually assumes that ALL of the criminals in the DB 
are present in the scanned population. You are still id'in nearly one 
innocent person for every criminal caught. 40 vs 48, and 2 got away!

If, as appears to be the case, criminals avoid areas where such 
surveillance occurs, then the ratio of innocent vs criminal ID's goes up.

This system goes into effect...the criminals learn quickly. Say 80% 
start avoiding this area.

That means you're down to 10 crooks in the population. Of these 0.2 will 
get through...it's hard to say, most of the time you'll catch 'em all.

Now you have a ratio of 40 innocents to 10 crooks, you're dealing with 4 
times the innocent population caught in your dragnet.

As you increase the surveillance population, *unless* you increase your 
database correspondingly, you will get fewer and fewer returns for your 
efforts.

If *everyone* is in the database, then you will reduce that ratio 
Innocent:Crook to the error rate of your system.

Alas, increasing that database is far too easy these days...many states 
are using digitized photgraphs on their drivers licenses. In the test 
case in Flroda, when they scanned everyone coming in to Tampa Stadium 
(for the superboowl? The Orange Bowl...some bowl game) they used, as 
their Database, the entire florida drivers license DB.

Instant Police State. Just add technology.

Bruce




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 17:24:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 16:24:10 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
Message-ID: <bc.25ad7503.29fc8cd1@aol.com>

In a message dated 27/04/02 21:28:01 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


Again, I think this show a misunderstanding of what officers actually do in
the service (The exception being pilots, although the Army has Warrant
Officers for that.)  And I recall at least on episode of TNG, "Drumhead"
that involved the court martial of an enlisted crewman of the Enterprise, so
there must be some enlisted.


A medical technician. Although this implies an enlisted man it is conceivable 
that medical technicians are officers in the ST universe.

Of course this doesn't mean that the whole ST approach to rank isn't a load 
of old dingoes kidneys.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 18:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 27 17:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3CCB1CC6.60408@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>> Bruce Johnson writes:
>> 
>>>Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here,
>>>comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.
>>>
>>>You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via
>>>your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of
>>>false positives and false negatives.
>>>
>>>That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously,
>>>which means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched
>>>erroneously.
>> 
>> 
>> OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics, so
>> please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the odds
>> that the system will think I am? And if I am in the database, what are the
>> odds that the system will fail to recognize me?
>
> Same odds, no matter what: 1 in 25.
>
> Leonard posted these numbers earlier, but here goes.
>
> Assumption: you have a population of 10000 people, who may or may not be 
> part of a database of 50 bad guys. (0.5% of the population)
>
> 4% failure rate means that in 4% of the cases, software fails to 
> discriminate properly. (they did not give separate false positive and 
> false egative error rates)
>
> If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
> are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
> member.
>
> 10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
> correctly ID'ed.

Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives. 

> 50 bad guys * 0.04 = 2 false negatives in 10,000 examinations. 48 
> correctly ID'ed

> The above analysis actually assumes that ALL of the criminals in the DB 
> are present in the scanned population. You are still id'in nearly one 
> innocent person for every criminal caught. 40 vs 48, and 2 got away!

No, you've IDed 8 1/3 innocent people for each criminal caught. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 18:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 17:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <20020427.170606.-112869.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

on 4/27/02 4:11 AM, Olegamer@aol.com at Olegamer@aol.com wrote:
<quote>
I do not find it unbelievable that we would have strictly "commissioned
officers" staff such vessels under those conditions. Lets look at Chief
O'Brien too, he did not become and official enlisted man until he stepped
down from his vaulted position on the ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on
Deep Space Nine. 
</quote>

Well, after a simple web search for startrek enterprise, then a scroll
down to O'Brien, I came up with his stats. It doesn't matter what Gene R.
intended, there were enlisted personnel onboard. See below.

   Miles O`Brien
Chief of Operations  

PERSONNEL FILE: O'Brien, Miles Edward
**Includes summary updates, addenda through SD 52999 (2375) 
Played By: Colm Meany
Rank: Chief petty officer, senior chief specialist
Current assignment: Professor of Engineering, Starfleet Academy;
previously, Chief of Operations, Deep Space Nine
Full Name: Miles Edward O'Brien
Year of birth: September, 2328
Place of birth: Killarney, Ireland, Earth
Parents: Mr. and Mrs. Michael O'Brien (mother died 2368; father remarried
2369)
Marital status: Married Keiko Ishikawa in 2367 in Ten-Forward, U.S.S.
Enterprise
Children: One daughter, Molly, born 2368; a son, Kirayoshi, born 2373
Quarters: Currently relocating to Earth from residence at Deep Space Nine
(several cities under consideration)
Security clearance: Level 1


Starfleet Career Summary 

2345 -- Enrolled in Starfleet Academy.

2346 -- Enlisted as a non-commissioned officer in Starfleet.

2347 -- As young crewman posted to NCC-57295 U.S.S. Rutledge under Capt.
Ben Maxwell, was decorated after clash with Cardassians on Setlik III and
re-assigned by Maxwell as a bridge tactical officer.

2364 -- After serving on two more ships in the last two years,
transferred to new U.S.S. Enterprise under Captain Jean-Luc Picard as
relief flight control officer in command duty division and later as
security in operations division.

2365 -- Re-assigned at chief petty officer rank to Enterprise transporter
chief, usually posted in Transporter Room 3.

2369 -- Accepted offer as chief of operations at Deep Space Nine, onetime
Cardassian mining station, under Cmdr. Ben Sisko.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 20:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Apr 27 19:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
Message-ID: <3CCB57F5.D59D4658@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>
>http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd
>
>>More GT ships and a load of High Guard designs are uploading... oop, >>done!

>Very nice!

Very nice indeed! And a GT version of my Zhilqatij class Strike Cruiser!
Now I feel honored...

"I would like to thank the members of the Academy..."

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: didn't get Digest No 438
Message-ID: <000b01c1ee60$b56ee7a0$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

I have now received copies of this digest. Thank you to all who sent them

Andy

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi                      AndyLong@BigPond.com	  	
 United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
                                +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
In-Reply-To: <20020427.170606.-112869.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c1ee61$8a7d2420$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Well, after a simple web search for startrek enterprise, then a scroll
> down to O'Brien, I came up with his stats. It doesn't matter what Gene R.
> intended, there were enlisted personnel onboard.  ...

And here I thought this was all common knowledge.

Roddenberry intended that all starfleet personel on the Enterprise were
"officers".  While this made no sense at all, this was the stated intention.
This applied through all of TOS and into TNG.

The best example of this was (appropriately enough), Miles O'Brien.

When Colm Meany's character was first introduced in TNG he was an officer
and wore the pips of a Lt on his collar.  This was consistent through the
first 2-3 seasons.

Later, when the post-Roddenberry powers decided to start fleshing out
the character, he was officially named and made enlisted.  (In one
particular episode, the one with Worf's human parents, he is specifically
identified as such.)  O'Brien was enlisted long before he ever transfered
to DS9.  Note that the character was never demoted in a story or
anything, the O'Brien's character was just retroactively "changed" to
have always been enlisted.

So, we are left with the situation that while Roddenberry intended for
only officers to serve aboard the Enterprise, the later powers (Berman?)
decided that the Enterprise should have enlisted personel after all, and
the change was made.

What this all has to do with Traveller, I dunno.  Sorry for wasting
everyone's time, and I am embarrassed to admit this much knowledge of
Star Trek, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:10:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:10:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020427111811.41F13279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Matthew Bond writes:
>From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>>Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
>>from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_ TU,
>>but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the OTU.
>
>Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump Duration
>is unknowable until immediately prior to exit.

It may or may not be known from the moment you enter jump, but it is
implicit in the game mechanic that fixes the jump duration by a single
random die roll that you can't figure it out until it is to late to abort
the jump. Otherwise ships would keep making the calculations (at 20
minutes a pop) until they found a solution that would take them to their
destination in less than the (so-called) average time of 7 days.

>I can find no such reference in the books I find close to hand: Bk2, Bk5,
>Gurps:Traveller... only a reference to the fact that jumps take respectively
>1 week, 150-175 hours, and 168 hours +/- 0 to 10%...

>And in any case, the OTU explicitly includes piracy so surely any
>interpretation of canon that aids in the existence of piracy must therefore
>be welcomed with open arms under your apparent criteria for valid
>discussion.

Of all the pirates that I can recall that the OTU explicitly includes,
none of them make a living preying on interplanetary craft[*]. Even if
your scheme turned out to be workable, it still wouldn't explain the
pirates that (according to the ship encounter tables and various
adventures) lie in wait for PCs when they jump into a system as close to
the mainworld as they can possibly get.

[*] Though I suppose the ones in the character generation tables may.


Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:47:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:47:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
In-Reply-To: <000a01c1ee61$8a7d2420$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEJLDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Then the whole thing with the yeoman and the captain had nothing to do with
officer/enlisted fraternization? Blows _my_ mind.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mike West
>
> And here I thought this was all common knowledge.
>
> Roddenberry intended that all starfleet personel on the Enterprise were
> "officers".  While this made no sense at all, this was the stated
> intention.
> This applied through all of TOS and into TNG.
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 22:08:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr 27 21:08:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Canon and Jump Duration (was Re: Piracy assumptions)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <000e01c1ee6a$4f48ce00$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 4:09 AM
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions


> Matthew Bond writes:
> >From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
> >
> >>Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
> >>from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_
TU,
> >>but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the
OTU.
> >
> >Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump
Duration
> >is unknowable until immediately prior to exit.
>
> It may or may not be known from the moment you enter jump, but it is
> implicit in the game mechanic that fixes the jump duration by a single
> random die roll that you can't figure it out until it is to late to abort
> the jump. Otherwise ships would keep making the calculations (at 20
> minutes a pop) until they found a solution that would take them to their
> destination in less than the (so-called) average time of 7 days.

Hence my stating that the roll applies to any jump from point A to Point B
within the next few hours. Astrogation-0 IMTU gives exactly the same result
(Jump Duration unknown until committed to Jump). Astrogation-1 lets the
astrogator see the resulting duration prior to final commitment to jump.
Astrogation 2+ allows the astrogator to calculate jump duration for jumps in
the subsequent (Astrogation Skill)-1 Jump 'windows', where each window
encompasses a few hours.

How about you removing your CanonVision(TM) Blinkers and considering this
variation on Jump Duration and Astrogation on its own merits. Does it
'break' canon? Not particularly IMHO. Does it enhance canon? Well, it
certainly allows Fleets to arrive together... and makes Skilled Astrogators
worth having... both of which I feel are useful.

You seem to feel that being able to calculate a jump duration is
'uncanonical', where all that I can find in canon is that the duration
varies at approximately a week +- 10% or so. Canon doesn't (in the reference
I have to hand anyway) make any comment other than this. It doesn't
explicitly say that two ships jumping from point A to Point B at the same
time make different rolls. Most people seem to assume that this is implied,
but I would simply say that the rules are assuming the players are on a
single ship and are only concerned with their own particular Jump Duration.

If I as GM choose to apply this same time to all ships jumping between the
same two points within a similar timeframe, I am free to do so. I could even
state that a jump between two given systems ALWAYS takes the same time, and
the roll is just to determine this time the first time the players jump
between those two systems. Or I could say that all jumps have random
durations all the time (as you and many others feel is the case). All three
of these options is just as valid in canon, as all canon states is that not
all Jumps take the same time, and that the variation is within set limits
around one week.

Now if you want to persist in deriding me for being 'uncanonical' please
direct me to a valid reference that invalidates my assumptions. It may be
that it is in some supplement or magazine article I do not possess. But just
because it is different to the way you have always done things doesn't
necessarily make it uncanonical, if it covers an aspect of Traveller that is
not explicitly covered by canon.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 22:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Kim)
Date: Sat Apr 27 21:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>
References: <20020424063707.194DD27A34@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <p0510150db8f1258b9cb4@[10.0.1.10]>

At 6:54 AM -0500 4/24/02, David Smart wrote:

>An interesting sidenote for Traveller is the experience on one of the
>many
>Apollo flights. Apollo 8, I think. 'Twould seem one of the astronauts
>had
>a bout with some food that didn't agree with him. It hit when they had
>been
>in orbit preparatory to leaving for the moon. No one informed Mission
>Control and they were told to proceed (lose out on going to the moon
>'cause
>of the trots? As if!).

	Frank Borman, the commander of Apollo 8 was violently sick 
early in the mission.  Started throwing up and in the midst of 
retching had massive diarrhea.  Apparently, the cleanup was rather 
unpleasant :).  A big blob of vomit hit Jim Lovell in the chest.

	Borman didn't want to announce to the world over the open 
loop that he had been ill, so they recorded a message on tape that 
got dumped with the spacecraft telemetry.  After the tape had been 
listened to, there was serious discussion of canceling the mission. 
The surgeons were worried that whatever Borman had might be passed to 
the rest of the crew.

	In the end, it was decided to let the mission go through. 
Borman was feeling much better and it was too late to use the Service 
Module's engine to do a direct abort.  No matter what, Apollo 8 was 
going to go around the moon anyway so they might as well wait see how 
everyone was feeling when they went into orbit

	There's a good telling of this event in Chaikin's _A_Man_On_the_Moon_.

Space Nut Justin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 03:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeffrey Malone)
Date: Sun Apr 28 02:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Sickness and the Political Control of Information
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk> <000e01c1ee6a$4f48ce00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <001301c1ee93$5bbcfd40$4e7354d2@1338700057>

Followers of the TNS may have noted that the story of Jeffrey Long, ace
reporter revealing the truth (?) of Jump Sickness, has appeared in the G:T
timeline.  I have always been of the view that Jump Sickness is probably
more political than physiological in origin.  The reason?  The time edge
that control of a J-6 information network (versus a J-4 or less general
information network for Joe Public) gives any large interstellar state.
Noting that mis-jump may cause an effective jump well beyond J-6 (up to J-30
or J-36, IIRC, depending on rule set), I would wonder whether the average
duration of Jump Sickness is up to the 36 week timeframe.  Requiring the
absolute quarantine of the poor vicitms, I suspect.

The bottom line:  Jump Sickness has more to do with protecting the Imperial
body politic from destabilising uncontrolled information flows, than its
alleged victims.

Comments?

J.M. Malone


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 05:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 28 04:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <146.da76e8b.29fd3d17@aol.com>

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In a message dated 4/27/02 11:10:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mjwest@caddocourt.com writes:


> What this all has to do with Traveller, I dunno.  Sorry for wasting
> everyone's time, and I am embarrassed to admit this much knowledge of
> Star Trek, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.
> 
> Mike West
> 
> 

Thank you Mr. West for imputting your 2 credits, I for one enjoyed the 
clarification. 

Bob Range
aka Olegamer

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/27/02 11:10:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mjwest@caddocourt.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">What this all has to do with Traveller, I dunno. &nbsp;Sorry for wasting
<BR>everyone's time, and I am embarrassed to admit this much knowledge of
<BR>Star Trek, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.
<BR>
<BR>Mike West
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Thank you Mr. West for imputting your 2 credits, I for one enjoyed the clarification. 
<BR>
<BR>Bob Range
<BR>aka Olegamer</FONT></HTML>

--part1_146.da76e8b.29fd3d17_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 09:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 28 08:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
Message-ID: <200204281505.FEN01862@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Justin Kim <jlkim@mail.com>  
>After the tape had been listened to, there was serious 
>discussion of canceling the mission. 
>The surgeons were worried that whatever Borman had might be 
>passed to the rest of the crew.
>

The Intergalactic Laxative will get you from here to Mars....
________________
NO! Sentence first, verdict after!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 09:18:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Apr 28 08:18:12 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020428151458.60631.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

I think that al lot of this confusions is caused by
> most civilians view NCOs
> and enlisted as 'not as good as' officers.  They
> don't understand the
> difference between the two and their roles.
> Civilians, when they picture
> themselves in uniform, almost invariably see
> themselves as officers.
Well, this is just my two cents. Officers enjoy more
luxuries than enlisted men and are seen as less
expendable. C'mon , they get paid better get better
jobs and benefits,just better every thing from
uniforms to housing. The requirements are harder too. 
It's no wonder people think this.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 09:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 28 08:42:02 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <20020428151458.60631.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8F16629.58CB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/28/02 8:14 AM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> Well, this is just my two cents. Officers enjoy more
> luxuries than enlisted men and are seen as less
> expendable. C'mon , they get paid better get better
> jobs and benefits,just better every thing from
> uniforms to housing. The requirements are harder too.
> It's no wonder people think this.

I suppose so.  Just for the record, officers pay for their own uniforms and
meals. 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 11:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 10:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
>>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
>>member.
>>
>>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
>>correctly ID'ed.
> 
> 
> Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives. 

Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...

IAC, this only makes my later analysis much worse.

("Oh, waiter! We asked for an order of magnitude here!")

Bruce



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 11:53:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Apr 28 10:53:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Big Brother


> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> >>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you
> >>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a
> >>member.
> >>
> >>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960
> >>correctly ID'ed.
> >
> >
> > Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives.
>
> Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...
>
> IAC, this only makes my later analysis much worse.

Ok, this takes into account any given analysis... so what happens when the
system analyses several frames of the CCTV footage... The chances of the
same Innocent person being repeatedly misidentified as being in the database
surely falls, and similarly the chance of correctly identifying a criminal
as being in the database rises.

If the threshold for flagging a particular person as being worth further
investigation (and I would expect that the first level of investigation is
simply to get a human operator to look at the screen and compare the image
with that in the database...) is set to be say 7+ positives out of 10 frames
analysed, then the system can filter out many of the false positives and
false negatives before raising it to a higher level of investigation.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 12:01:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Sun Apr 28 11:01:08 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <200204281505.FEN01862@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204281059510.9237-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Justin Kim <jlkim@mail.com>  
> >After the tape had been listened to, there was serious 
> >discussion of canceling the mission. 
> >The surgeons were worried that whatever Borman had might be 
> >passed to the rest of the crew.
> >
> 
> The Intergalactic Laxative will get you from here to Mars....

OMG!!!  I know that song!!!

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 12:13:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 11:13:57 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204281059510.9237-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3CCC3B8E.503094B7@premier.net>


Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
<<snip>>

> > The Intergalactic Laxative will get you from here to Mars....
> 
> OMG!!!  I know that song!!!

Ah, so we have at least _two_ Donovan fans on the list....

I saw him live at a bar in Monterey, CA in 1985.  My roommate had a
Donovan concert poster from circa 1967 (IIRC, it was for a Donovan/H.P.
Lovecraft double-bill at the Fillmore West), so I brought it with me (my
roommate being under 21) and got it autographed.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 13:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Apr 28 12:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020428173927.27A3A27990@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Matthew Bond writes:
>From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>>Matthew Bond writes:
>>>Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump
>>Duration is unknowable until immediately prior to exit.
>>
>>It may or may not be known from the moment you enter jump, but it is
>>implicit in the game mechanic that fixes the jump duration by a single
>>random die roll that you can't figure it out until it is to late to abort
>>the jump. Otherwise ships would keep making the calculations (at 20
>>minutes a pop) until they found a solution that would take them to their
>>destination in less than the (so-called) average time of 7 days.
>
>Hence my stating that the roll applies to any jump from point A to Point B
>within the next few hours.

Ships getting long jump durations would still have the option of waiting
for the next jump 'window' and try again. This IS an addition to the
canonical jump mechanics. Not to mention that it won't actually help your
pirates much. They'll still have to find a jump window that just happens
to put them in the right spot at the right time. Say the first window
would put them at the intercept spot four hours too late and they
calculate that. So they wait for the next jump window and finds that now
they'll arrive six hours too early. So instead of one chance at really
lousy odds they get six or eight changes at really lousy odds. It's a
gain, but is it enough of a gain?

>Astrogation-0 IMTU gives exactly the same result (Jump Duration unknown
>until committed to Jump). Astrogation-1 lets the astrogator see the
>resulting duration prior to final commitment to jump. Astrogation 2+
>allows the astrogator to calculate jump duration for jumps in the
>subsequent (Astrogation Skill)-1 Jump 'windows', where each window
>encompasses a few hours.

The old 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absense' saw applies to
things that have not been dealt with at length in rules and adventures.
Something like what you can and cannot do with Astrogation skill has been
dealt with in detail and the absence of any mention of such abilities IS
evidence that it doesn't exist. In canon, that is.

>How about you removing your CanonVision(TM) Blinkers and considering this
>variation on Jump Duration and Astrogation on its own merits. Does it
>'break' canon? Not particularly IMHO. Does it enhance canon? Well, it
>certainly allows Fleets to arrive together... and makes Skilled Astrogators
>worth having... both of which I feel are useful.

I presume that you mean that it enhances the roleplaying potential of the
setting, not the canon. Without getting sidetracked into discussing just
how brilliant the idea is, let me say that IMO the prime function of
having a 'continuity bible' for a shared universe is to prevent authors
from messing up the setting by introducing pet ideas that may be perfectly
good ideas in their own right but would contradict previously published
information.

I'm not a fanatic about canon. If Marc came up with an absolutely amazingly
good idea for the Traveller setting that unfortunately required that he edit
out the Ancients retroactively, then I might accept that... if the idea was
truly amazing. But I think the bar is a lot higher when it comes to
contraditing the existing background than when it comes to introducing ideas
about previously untouched territory.

>You seem to feel that being able to calculate a jump duration is
>'uncanonical', where all that I can find in canon is that the duration
>varies at approximately a week +- 10% or so. Canon doesn't (in the reference
>I have to hand anyway) make any comment other than this.

I found a couple last night. On p. 92-93 of _MT:Imperial Encyclopedia_
there is a descrition/Referee's checklist of how to conduct a jump. Step 8
is to engage the jump drive. Step 9 has the ship entering jumpspace
whereupon the referee determines the jump duration. The text does not
indicate whether he informs the players about the duration immediately or
not. However, on p. 66 of _GT:Far Trader_ is an illustration of a crew
lounge during a jump. On the wall is a prominently displayed 'Elapsed jump
time' clock. I think that if the crew knew of the exact time of breakout,
that clock would display 'Time to breakout' instead. (And yes, I know that
illustrations have a lower evidence value than text, but if an
illustration doesn't contradict any text, I consider it valid).

On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of misjump
that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've misjumped as
the time stretches out past the estimated breakout time. If they knew
exactly when they were supposed to emerge, they'd know something was wrong
within a few minutes of passing that time. I _think_ is was somewhere in a
CT book, but I can't recall if it was rules or and adventure. I'll see if
I can dig it up. (If anyone else can provide a reference, please do so).

>If I as GM choose to apply this same time to all ships jumping between the
>same two points within a similar timeframe, I am free to do so. I could even
>state that a jump between two given systems ALWAYS takes the same time, and
>the roll is just to determine this time the first time the players jump
>between those two systems.

Of course you can. It's your universe. But would you be able to do so if
you were writing a Traveller adventure for official publication? I believe
not. (Not that it is my call to make, of course).

>...Or I could say that all jumps have random durations all the time (as
>you and many others feel is the case). All three of these options is just
>as valid in canon, as all canon states is that not all Jumps take the
>same time, and that the variation is within set limits around one week.

Even if that was true (which I don't agree with), only one of those three
options could be true for any particular universe. The moment someone uses
one of the options in an official adventure, BANG!, it's the way things
are, always have been, ad always will be in the OTU.

>Now if you want to persist in deriding me for being 'uncanonical' please
>direct me to a valid reference that invalidates my assumptions.

Well, I don't think I've derided you yet, so I can't persist. But take the
above two references as a start (of references, not of deriding). I'll see
if I can dig up more.

>But just because it is different to the way you have always done things
>doesn't necessarily make it uncanonical,

I agree. I've made mistakes before. I don't think I'm doing it now,
though.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 15:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 28 14:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>
References: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020429074417.A25504@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Ok, this takes into account any given analysis... so what happens when the
> system analyses several frames of the CCTV footage... The chances of the
> same Innocent person being repeatedly misidentified as being in the database
> surely falls, and similarly the chance of correctly identifying a criminal
> as being in the database rises.

No.  Repeating the same analysis on slightly different frames merely
spreads the error rates out worse still.

A more detailed analysis: the system is based on a "similarity" score.
In different frames (at different angles, lighting, etc), the score
will vary.  In particular, it will look like a "bell" as the person
being identified passes through their 'best' profile, with a large
amount of noise superimposed on the curve.

This will happen even for people not in the database, since even
innocent people's faces look more like that of a miscreant than the
back of their head does, or their face at a drastically different
angle.

Now, the 4% error quoted is for the best case: a clear shot of the
subject's face under good consistent lighting at about the same angle
as the shots in their database.  


> If the threshold for flagging a particular person as being worth
> further investigation is set to be say 7+ positives out of 10 frames
> analysed, then the system can filter out many of the false positives
> and false negatives before raising it to a higher level of
> investigation.

Unfortunately not.  If you do that, then yes, you drop the chance of
misidentifying an innocent somewhat.  However, you grossly drop the
chance of correctly identifying someone in the database -- you'll
virtually *never* have a full 7 frames with a high score.  So you have
to lower your threshold (a lot), consequently increasing the chance of
misidentifying innocents.  If you do the maths on the identification
curves, you'll see that this always ends up with a worse trade-off
than before.  Although it 'sharpens' the identification curve, it
sharpens the *noise* in the curve even more.


> (and I would expect that the first level of investigation is simply
> to get a human operator to look at the screen and compare the image
> with that in the database...)

This would help, but means you need to employ someone full-time to
compare the images.  Furthermore, there is going to be a large overlap
between what the computer misidentifies and what a human would -- the
suspect and database image do have similar faces, after all.  Humans
aren't known for being that accurate either.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Apr 28 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide
Message-ID: <003501c1eefe$04116fc0$85e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Traveller's Aide #1 seems to be receiving a warm welcome, and several =
more issues are in preparation.=20

However, we're still open to anyone interested in writing future =
volumes.

All Traveller's Aides will be "official" traveller material and thus =
compatible with all versions of the rules. Stats for  T20 and CT are =
included in all. The "Home" setting of T20 is year 1000, which is close =
enough to the late-golden-age CT setting that supplements can be =
compatible with both. We have a wish-list but we're also open to =
suggestions.=20

We particularly need adventures of the LBB sort right now, and these =
need not be set in the T20 "Home" setting of Gateway Domain. I.e. if you =
have an adventure for CT set in the Marches or the Rim, Lishun Sector in =
Year 0, or wherever, we'll consider it.=20

Mail me direct for more details.=20


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Traveller's Aide #1 seems to be =
receiving a warm=20
welcome, and several more issues are in preparation. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>However, we're still open to anyone =
interested in=20
writing future volumes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>All Traveller's Aides will be =
"official" traveller=20
material and thus compatible with all versions of the rules. Stats =
for&nbsp; T20=20
and CT are included in all. The "Home" setting of T20 is year 1000, =
which is=20
close enough to the late-golden-age CT setting that supplements can be=20
compatible with both. We have a wish-list but we're also open to =
suggestions.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We particularly need adventures of the =
LBB sort=20
right now, and these need not be set in the T20 "Home" setting of =
Gateway=20
Domain. I.e. if you have an adventure for CT set in&nbsp;the Marches or =
the Rim,=20
Lishun Sector in Year 0, or wherever, we'll consider it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mail me direct for more details. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 16:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 15:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>
>> >>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you
>> >>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a
>> >>member.
>> >>
>> >>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960
>> >>correctly ID'ed.
>> >
>> >
>> > Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives.
>>
>> Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...
>>
>> IAC, this only makes my later analysis much worse.
>
> Ok, this takes into account any given analysis... so what happens when the
> system analyses several frames of the CCTV footage... The chances of the
> same Innocent person being repeatedly misidentified as being in the database
> surely falls, and similarly the chance of correctly identifying a criminal
> as being in the database rises.

The system *is* analyzing several frame, just to get *usable* data. 

Try a freeze frame on your VCR to see just how *bad* the resolution of
broadcast TV is. CCTV systems aren't any better. You have to
interpolate from several frames just to get enough detail. 

And the given error rate is most definitely *not* from analyzing a
single frame.

> If the threshold for flagging a particular person as being worth further
> investigation (and I would expect that the first level of investigation is
> simply to get a human operator to look at the screen and compare the image
> with that in the database...) is set to be say 7+ positives out of 10 frames
> analysed, then the system can filter out many of the false positives and
> false negatives before raising it to a higher level of investigation.

Again, you are completely off base with regards to how the analysis is
being done. It's *not* matching individual frames against *anything*.
It's using multiple frames to derive enough detauils to *attempt* a match.

It *has* to. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 16:03:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 15:03:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20428.143242.4c0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
>>>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
>>>member.
>>>
>>>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
>>>correctly ID'ed.
>> 
>> 
>> Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives. 
>
> Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...

It's just been too long since you used a slipstick. Getting the
decimals right there *mattered*. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 16:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 15:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fellow Travellers in Colorado
Message-ID: <3CCC740B.21C858AD@premier.net>

I'm going to be at Ft. Carson, CO, for a couple of months as I train up
for my upcoming Sinai tour.  According to Eris' TML roster, there are
three TMLers (past or present) in Colorado (John Lambert in Colorado
Springs, and Steve Deemer and Robert Uhl in Denver).

Any others out there?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Sickness and the Political Control of Information
In-Reply-To: <001301c1ee93$5bbcfd40$4e7354d2@1338700057>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk>
 <000e01c1ee6a$4f48ce00$52200050@matt>
 <001301c1ee93$5bbcfd40$4e7354d2@1338700057>
Message-ID: <m3elgzfn0r.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Jeffrey Malone" <nparker1971@ozemail.com.au> writes:
> 
> The bottom line: Jump Sickness has more to do with protecting the
> Imperial body politic from destabilising uncontrolled information
> flows, than its alleged victims.

I must disagree.  The impression I get from the TNS bulletins is that
jump sickness is denied to exist, due to the additional costs of trade
it would cause, and that Long has proof that it does.  But then, none
of the canon I've to hand mentions it.  Perhaps in some other fragment
it is explained that it is a known risk?

I also don't think that the Imperium would be locking up folks who
misjump great distances.  First of all, canon implies that the risks
of misjump are known both in magnitude and in frequency.  Secondly,
people would surely mention their imprisonment, unless brain-wiped.
Thirdly, how likely is it for an entire ship to be afflicted at once?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The fact that we have bodies is the oldest joke there is.  --C.S. Lewis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:03:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:03:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
In-Reply-To: <146.da76e8b.29fd3d17@aol.com>
References: <146.da76e8b.29fd3d17@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3adrnfmzb.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Olegamer@aol.com writes:

Emacs, at least, thinks that you wrote HTML.  Anyone have better
information?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the people of
the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own
arms.                            --Samuel Adams, brewer and patriot

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <m31yczfmrp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>
> Again, you are completely off base with regards to how the analysis
> is being done. It's *not* matching individual frames against
> *anything*.  It's using multiple frames to derive enough detauils to
> *attempt* a match.
> 
> It *has* to. 

Well, it has to unless the authorities mandate that eveyone approach
cameras in such a manner as to make the frames be identical to those
in the database.

`Comrade, approach the camera face-forward and stand still for 12
seconds!'

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
...a language is just an dialect with an army and a navy.
                                --Paul Tomblin, in a.s.r.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:10:04 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <B8F16629.58CB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8F16629.58CB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3662bfmwb.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> I suppose so.  Just for the record, officers pay for their own
> uniforms and meals.

And, at least in the Navy, at least when my father was in, their cooks
as well.  The best at the time were reputed to be Phillipino: not
overly expensive, but with an amazing command of culinary technique.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own
good, in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of
theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it.        --John Stuart Mill

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> 
> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> time.

Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
having an estimated breakout.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
                                                 --Mojo Nixon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk> <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3CCC847F.2ABA2927@premier.net>


"Robert Uhl " wrote:
> 
> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >
> > On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> > misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> > misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> > time.
> 
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

Ah, but passing the normal maximum by any significant amount should
start to worry you, regardless of your pre-calculated jump time.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk> <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020429093423.A25777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
[...suspecting misjump ...]
> Even passing further is no big deal.

Once you've got to the 98th percentile, you'd be having dark
suspicions.  The problem is that if the jump duration is known rather
precisely beforehand, the time between "all's well" and "oh my god,
we've misjumped" is rather too short for mere misgivings.


>  Indeed, without having an idea how long _this particular jump_ will
> be, there's no way of having an estimated breakout.

Of course there's an estimated breakout time: within 10% of 168 hours.
By the time you've reached the 99th percentile of that, the posterior
probability of misjump has increased 100-fold, and starting to look
comparably likely to merely a long but successful jump.

In the 'known duration' case specified, the time interval between the
99th and 100th percentiles for successful jumps is at least two orders
of magnitude shorter -- not enough time for vague suspicions and
speculations throughout the crew.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 17:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Population Modelling
In-Reply-To: <00e801c1cbc7$eea362a0$67da883e@fabian>
Message-ID: <20428.160746.5z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

I was catching up on old posts, and this jumped out at me...

In mail you write:

> As a mathematical exercise, I worked out that, assuming a free movement of
> populations (a false assumption), everyone is descended from everyone as
> of 500 years ago. This is based on teh fact that teh number of ancestors
> doubles every generation, but the total population decreases as you go
> back in time. Working out when teh two numbers are equal is a simple
> exercise...

Actually, there's a hidden assumption in there that destroys the idea.

The number of ancestors doubles each generation back *only* if there
are no common ancestors. With the current "rule" that first cousins
can't marry, but second cousins can, you can have common ancestors 3 or
4 generations back (I can't recall exactly how "second cousin" is
defined). 

Anybody who has done any detailed family trees that go back very far
will run into branches that cross this way.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 19:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Sun Apr 28 18:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <m31yczfmrp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <005d01c1ef1e$95858f20$9307b286@Shane>

Robert wrote:
> Well, it has to unless the authorities mandate that eveyone approach
> cameras in such a manner as to make the frames be identical to those
> in the database.
>
> `Comrade, approach the camera face-forward and stand still for 12
> seconds!'

You know, it strikes me that (barring Robert's suggestion above) this system
is stupidly easy to evade if you know where the cameras are, or even where
the cameras are likely to be.  Good luck to any system, automated or
otherwise, attempting to get a clear mugshot of someone who is trying not to
be recognized.  I'm not talking about pulling your jacket over your head, or
wearing a balaclava or anything silly like that.  Simply blowing your nose
on a handkerchief as you pass the camera; or looking down to brush something
off your shirt; or turning away to wave goodbye to someone.  There are
dozens of such stunts you can pull, and you can use a different one every
'checkpoint' you pass.  Maybe combine that with taking off your jacket
between checkpoints, and putting it back on after the next one to interfere
with the system identifying you by your clothes.

I think it comes back to the idea that a halfway intelligent criminal who
really doesn't want to be caught generally won't be caught.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- "And you're mo' smarter than the crooks on Miami Vice...
riiiight?"
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 19:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 28 18:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Population Modelling
In-Reply-To: <20428.160746.5z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <00e801c1cbc7$eea362a0$67da883e@fabian>
Message-ID: <3CCD4F3B.28144.D948ED@localhost>

On 28 Apr 2002 at 16:07, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> The number of ancestors doubles each generation back *only* if there
> are no common ancestors. With the current "rule" that first cousins
> can't marry, but second cousins can, you can have common ancestors 3 or
> 4 generations back (I can't recall exactly how "second cousin" is
> defined). 

Your second cousins are the children of your parents' first cousins.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 21:01:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 20:01:19 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
Message-ID: <3CCCB6E8.CF6883B@premier.net>

Yet another cruiser design from AuricTech, _Dido_ is primarily a killer
of smaller vessels, with 20 large NPAW linear bay weapons.

_Dido_, _Dido_ class Light Cruiser (FF&S v2)
Designed by AuricTech Shipyards

Statistics
Tons: 25000std ( SL Short Rnd Cylinder Hypersonic )
Dimensions: 125m x 62.1m x 62.1m
Volume: 350000m3
Mass (L/C): 324434t/311263t
Maintenance Points: 9989
Cargo: 200std (0/8 /Hdl:8x50ton)
Crew: 437/585
Cost: 29263.8 Mcr
Tech Level: 15
Size: 10

Electronics
Controls: Holographic, Standard automation. 24xFltComp (CM:0.2 CP:5.0).
4xFibComp
(CM:0.2 CP:5.0). Terrain following sensors (TF:570, NOE:190). Bridge.
Communications: 4xRadio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 8xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
1xMeson (1,000AU,
5MW).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (14 [50mkm], 0.05MW). 1xAEMS (12.5 [5mkm] LP, 50MW).
12xLIDAR
(15 [2mkm], 2.5MW).
ECM: 1xRadio Jammer (1,000AU, 0.4MW). 1xDecp. Jammer (12, 1.25MW).
1xPas. Jammer
(15, 0.63MW).
Signatures: Vis:-0.5, IR:0 (0 at 50801MW, -0.5 at 8100MW), Act:0, Neu:0,
Grav:2 (Military Black coating, Advanced IR masking, 1 level Stealth,
Neutrino masking)

Weaponry
1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750]
(LR)
20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
(LR)
20 x 15 Mj Quad Laser Turret (+6) 1/4-4-4-4 [4,800/10-10-10-10] (LR)
12xMissile Auto 1/8 ( /Mag:39 /MFD:500,000km) w/40 Cmd DL 1d6/2 6.0G12
1000AU

Additional Fire Control
2xBeam Master Fire Directors (0MW 500,000km)
2xMissile Master Fire Directors (0MW 500,000km)

Performance
4    Jump (2500std/pc fuel)
6/6.2     Maneuver (/Thruster:48265MW)
No Contra-grav
5000kph/5000kph Atmosphere (/Crus:3750kph/3750kph)
6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
10578.9   Fuel (/Scoop:3 /Purif:30,148MW)
580/20/150 Accomodations (Small stateroom/Large stateroom/Emergency Low
berth)
15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations for 600
crew)
6    G-Comp
18   Sandcasters ( /AV:70 /Cans:20)
715  Damper Screen (169MW)
715  Meson Screen (319.516MW)
100 [715] Armor, 52 Structure

Features
250xAirlock
4xDocking Umbilical
1xElectronic Shop (6std ea.)  
1xMachine Shop (10std ea.)    
4xSickbay (8std ea.)     
1xShip's locker (12.5std ea.)
10xArmory (2.14std ea.) (Capacity: 60 each)
6xGym (2.5std ea.)
3xLounge(44std ea.)
1xCIC(44std ea.)
4xOrdinary Galley (Cap:150)
4xFull Galley (Cap:150)       

Small Craft
1xSpacHgr (30std, 1 hatches)
3xDockRing (30std)       

Backups
Sensors: 2xPEMS (13.5 [16mkm]). 2xAEMS (12 [1.6mkm] LP). 24xLIDAR (14.5
[500kkm]).

Power & Fuel: Fusion (1000MW).
Crew Details
7 x Maneuver. 1 x Electronics. 326 x Engineer. 23 x Maintenance. 65 x
Gunner. 12 x Screen. 8 x Flight. 40 x Troops. 80 x Command. 19 x
Steward. 4 x Medical.

The _Dido_-class light cruiser is expressly intended to operate against
multiple smaller foes.  Although _Dido_ mounts the well-proven 11.144 Gj
NPAW found on many smaller AuricTech cruiser designs, her primary
purpose is to carry 20 smaller, yet still potent, NPAWs into battle. 
One NPAW of this type is capable of engaging a destroyer on equal terms;
_Dido_ mounts twenty such weapons.  Twelve missile bays add to _Dido's_
offensive punch, while AuricTech's proven 15-Mj quad-mount laser turrets
provide both effective point defense against missiles and useful
anti-ship capability against smaller vessels.

As with most AuricTech cruiser designs, _Dido_ is capable of extended
independent operations.  She carries 26 weeks of rations for her design
crew, with enough galley capacity to enable her to mess twice her design
complement.  Under normal manning, each of _Dido's_ crewbeings enjoys an
individual Small or Large stateroom.  _Dido's_ habitability is enhanced
both by her large enlisted and officer lounges, each of which has an
adjacent ordinary galley as a snack bar, and by her physical fitness
centers, which exceed Imperial standards.  Her MultiFlow Corporation
Extended life support system is rated to support double occupancy
indefinitely.  Routine maintenance far from base is facilitated by
_Dido's_ workshops and cargo bays.

All these capabilities are not achieved at the expense of performance.
_Dido_ is capable of the 6G/J4 performance expected of Imperial Navy
fleet units.


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 23:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 22:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Singularities
Message-ID: <200204290551.g3T5p4G05098@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Singularities
...
>To quote from someone else:
...
>Even in the Gulf War of 1991 which saw a force of almost 
>400,000 hammered by unlimited conventional airpower for a 
>month and attacked by a large modern mobile armor force with 
>an enormous technological advantage in weaponry, the 
>estimated casualty figure for Iraqi forces equals 
>approximately only 7.1 percent."

  Given that all of the previous figures in that thesis were
annualized (eg, 9.0 per 1,000 per year for WW2), isn't it
strange that this one figure isn't? Especially as it would
contravene their conclusion if it were presented the same way.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 02:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Mon Apr 29 01:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
References: <16f.cbfbaed.29fb394e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CCD0A2F.1080406@gmx.net>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
>>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
>>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>>>
>officer."
>
>>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
>>
>TOS.
>
>Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
>people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
>doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.
>
And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
Bakula...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 03:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 29 02:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Opinions, please
Message-ID: <004a01c1ef5c$d0e67b40$66d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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I have a couple of questions for the list... consider this market =
research of a sort.

1. The Traveller's Aide series: what would folks like to see? The =
planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is there something =
specific?

For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
there prospective writers?

2. Some time ago I began work on a Traveller novel set during the =
Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems likely that the =
Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in a "Golden Age" =
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a couple of questions for the =
list...=20
consider this market research of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. The Traveller's Aide series: what =
would folks=20
like to see? The planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is =
there=20
something specific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what about a series of CT =
adventures=20
set in the Marches, circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make =
it worth=20
doing? Are there prospective writers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Some time ago I began work on a =
Traveller novel=20
set during the Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems =
likely=20
that the Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in =
a&nbsp;"Golden Age"=20
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the=20
Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 04:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 29 03:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20429.005102.9p1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
>> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
>> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
>> time.
>
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
will suspecyt there's a misjump.

>
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
> live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
> always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
>                                                  --Mojo Nixon
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 04:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Mon Apr 29 03:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>

In mail (Digest, which is why I'm so far behind:-), "Matthew Bond" 
<mattgbond@ntlworld.com> said...

<SNIP>
Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in 
the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
</SNIP>

I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4% 
failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company creating 
the system, or the local Police force.

*I* am merely repeating it.

To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently 
'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a lake 
have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in prison 
for perjury (telling lies in court).
Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the 
prisons are too overcrowded"...

ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the 
*whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her 
mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.

Jeff.
"I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 06:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Mon Apr 29 05:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern]
Message-ID: <3CCCF3C7.28630.3F7A8E@localhost>

I picked up a book called "The Yard" by Michael S Sanders
it covers the construction of an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer
from the keel up by the Bath Iron Works, and various techniques and some 
interesting pictures and diagrams

which leads into the question of how starships are built

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 06:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 05:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (OT) George Alec Effinger
Message-ID: <20020429.082943.-324537.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Some of you may already know this, but for those who haven't, George Alec
Effinger has passed away (it's been a rough couple of weeks for SF...
Damon Knight passed away not too long ago).  SJG's 'Daily Illuminator'
has more info: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 07:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Mon Apr 29 06:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B90@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: 29 April 2002 09:51
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >> 
> >> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> >> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> >> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> >> time.
> >
> > Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that 
> jump duration
> > is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that 
> passing the
> > minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> > average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, 
> without having
> > an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> > having an estimated breakout.
> 
> No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
> 168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
> will suspecyt there's a misjump.

Well, theres also the possiblity that the Astrogator miscalculated the
duration... so once the calculated time has elapsed the figures would be
checked and double checked. This will take some time. Then there will be
speculation that an uncharted massive body has interrupted the jump
route, thus throwing the duration out, even then one you get to 185
hours misjump will be the likely answer.

Also, IIRC, Jump sickness is more frequent in Misjumps, with onset of
headaches, dizzyness and nausea within 2-3 days of Jump initiation. So
that is likely to be the first indication of misjump rather than the
calculated duration passing.

And on the subject of Jump Sickness, I thought that Jeffery Long was the
guy that was in a coma after being the only known survivor of EVA during
Jump, and thus unshielded exposure to the Jump bubble. Simple Jump
Sickness is an accepted medical condition that some part of the
population suffers from in Jump, and which is more prevalent in a
misjump (and being one of the early telltales of a misjump)

As for the Illustration of a Jump Time Elapsed Display, rather than a
Countdown to Jump emergence, this may be to facilitate the Jump Exit
Lottery on the ship for passengers and crew. The Astrogator and Captain
may know when the ship is expected to exit Jump, but no-one else
necessarily does...

Matt 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 08:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Apr 29 07:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
References: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3pu0ibmj0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> An ex-Politician is in prison for perjury (telling lies in court).

Given that the entire basis of our court system is people telling the
truth in court, I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 09:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (allensh)
Date: Mon Apr 29 08:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
In-Reply-To: <3CCD0A2F.1080406@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <20020429150301.82010.qmail@web13908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> >tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military
> vessel, its organization is 
> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category
> does not exist. STAR TREK 
> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman
> aboard the U.S.S. 
> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified
> astronaut, therefore an 
> >>>
> >officer."

This was true in the original series, but not in the
later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 09:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Apr 29 08:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425.170405.-125887.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020429151026.74367.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
could prescribe that for our good General?


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> > On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> > 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three
> bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of
> Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.
> 
> Turokan
> 
> ..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.  
> ---   -       -..   .. 
>  .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..  
> ...-   .   --..--     
>  .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-  
> .-.   .       -   .... 
>  .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---  
> ..-.       -   ....   . 
>      .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 10:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Mon Apr 29 09:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <l03010d14b8f328581e59@[206.224.92.67]>

A message from Warehouse 23 to Traveller fans:

>The details of ordering and availability for the Traveller Limited Edition
>Hardcover haven't been finalized yet.  We will make an announcement as soon
>as everything has been confirmed.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a collection of existing Traveller
>items.  It will be sold through normal distribution and you can get it at
>your friendly local game store, or through Warehouse 23.  Just to clear up
>some confusion: no, it isn't preorder only.
>
>If there's anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me
>here at orders@sjgames.com.

Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
the word out.

We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.

The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
through the normal FLGS channels.



Loren



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <l03010d14b8f328581e59@[206.224.92.67]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429101934.009ecc00@mindspring.com>

At 11:47 AM 4/29/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
>them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
>the word out.
>
>We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
>and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
>through the normal FLGS channels.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf 
shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429101934.009ecc00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEKLDMAA.tml@downport.com>

http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry

> I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Message-ID: <F273WORuXB3QvCzI3Jj000037f8@hotmail.com>

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Brilliant!  I love it."


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  Please have fun using it in your campaigns.  You can 
see from the GM-imposed hardware/software/manning requirements that it was a 
definite "fun quotient" tweak.

     "This should become part of canon, methinks."

     Nope, that's going way too far.  This is absolutely a MTU/YTU rule 
only.  Besides, I got a sneaking suspicion that many folks already have 
something like it in their TUs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Message-ID: <200204291255.AA4128904@caddocourt.com>

From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
>--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
>> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>> >>>officer."
>
>This was true in the original series, but not in the
>later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
>was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
>were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Again, TNG was also "officer-only" for its first couple of seasons.  And Colm Meany's character was clearly an officer (specifically a Lt).  It was only post-Rodenberry where they introduce enlisted personel and "redefined" Colm Meany's character into the enlisted O'Brien.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Donald McKinney)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with reprint of Double Adventures...
Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E011405E2@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>

Ok, I spilled a dark substance on page 1 of the "Stranded on Arden" adventure in my *NEW* reprints book.

Is it possible to get someone to send me a photocopy of pages 1 and 2 of the "Stranded on Arden" adventure?  Sigh...


DonM.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with reprint of Double Adventures...
Message-ID: <200204291920.FGU00108@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Donald McKinney says
>Ok, I spilled a dark substance on page 1 of the "Stranded on 
>Arden" adventure in my *NEW* reprints book.
>

Ah, the dreaded Coffee...
________________
NO! Sentence first, verdict after!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22737@USCHM203>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
>circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
>there prospective writers?

>2.(re-Traveller Novel)So; supposing we serialized it in =
>the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?

Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:00 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #454 - 15 msgs


Send TML mailing list submissions to
	tml@travellercentral.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Re: Star Trek (Robert Houghton)
   2. Opinions, please (MJ Dougherty)
   3. Re: Re: Piracy assumptions (Leonard Erickson)
   4. Re: Big Brother (Jeff Rowse)
   5. an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern] (shadowcat)
   6. (OT) George Alec Effinger (knightsky@juno.com)
   7. RE: Re: Piracy assumptions (Matthew Bond)
   8. Re: Re: Big Brother (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
   9. Re: Re: Star Trek (allensh)
  10. Re: RAH and libertarianism (Paul Walker)
  11. (no subject) (Loren Wiseman)
  12. Re: (no subject) (Douglas Berry)
  13. RE: (no subject) (Swordy)
  14. Re: Grote's Clan Ships (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
  15. Re: Re: Star Trek (Mike West)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:54:07 +1000
From: Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
>>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK

>>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>>>
>officer."
>
>>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
>>
>TOS.
>
>Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
>people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
>doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.
>
And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
Bakula...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:03:35 +0100
Subject: [TML] Opinions, please
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a couple of questions for the list... consider this market =
research of a sort.

1. The Traveller's Aide series: what would folks like to see? The =
planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is there something =
specific?

For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
there prospective writers?

2. Some time ago I began work on a Traveller novel set during the =
Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems likely that the =
Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in a "Golden Age" =
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a couple of questions for the =
list...=20
consider this market research of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. The Traveller's Aide series: what =
would folks=20
like to see? The planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is =
there=20
something specific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what about a series of CT =
adventures=20
set in the Marches, circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make =
it worth=20
doing? Are there prospective writers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Some time ago I began work on a =
Traveller novel=20
set during the Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems =
likely=20
that the Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in =
a&nbsp;"Golden Age"=20
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the=20
Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220--


--__--__--

Message: 3
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 00:51:02 PST
Organization: Shadownet
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
>> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
>> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
>> time.
>
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
will suspecyt there's a misjump.

>
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
> live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
> always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
>                                                  --Mojo Nixon
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


--__--__--

Message: 4
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:52:01 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail (Digest, which is why I'm so far behind:-), "Matthew Bond" 
<mattgbond@ntlworld.com> said...

<SNIP>
Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in

the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
</SNIP>

I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4% 
failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company creating 
the system, or the local Police force.

*I* am merely repeating it.

To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently 
'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a lake 
have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in prison

for perjury (telling lies in court).
Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the 
prisons are too overcrowded"...

ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the 
*whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her 
mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.

Jeff.
"I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:18:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern]
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I picked up a book called "The Yard" by Michael S Sanders
it covers the construction of an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer
from the keel up by the Bath Iron Works, and various techniques and some 
interesting pictures and diagrams

which leads into the question of how starships are built

--__--__--

Message: 6
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:29:40 -0400
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: [TML] (OT) George Alec Effinger
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Some of you may already know this, but for those who haven't, George Alec
Effinger has passed away (it's been a rough couple of weeks for SF...
Damon Knight passed away not too long ago).  SJG's 'Daily Illuminator'
has more info: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:41:44 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com



> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: 29 April 2002 09:51
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >> 
> >> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> >> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> >> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> >> time.
> >
> > Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that 
> jump duration
> > is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that 
> passing the
> > minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> > average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, 
> without having
> > an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> > having an estimated breakout.
> 
> No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
> 168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
> will suspecyt there's a misjump.

Well, theres also the possiblity that the Astrogator miscalculated the
duration... so once the calculated time has elapsed the figures would be
checked and double checked. This will take some time. Then there will be
speculation that an uncharted massive body has interrupted the jump
route, thus throwing the duration out, even then one you get to 185
hours misjump will be the likely answer.

Also, IIRC, Jump sickness is more frequent in Misjumps, with onset of
headaches, dizzyness and nausea within 2-3 days of Jump initiation. So
that is likely to be the first indication of misjump rather than the
calculated duration passing.

And on the subject of Jump Sickness, I thought that Jeffery Long was the
guy that was in a coma after being the only known survivor of EVA during
Jump, and thus unshielded exposure to the Jump bubble. Simple Jump
Sickness is an accepted medical condition that some part of the
population suffers from in Jump, and which is more prevalent in a
misjump (and being one of the early telltales of a misjump)

As for the Illustration of a Jump Time Elapsed Display, rather than a
Countdown to Jump emergence, this may be to facilitate the Jump Exit
Lottery on the ship for passengers and crew. The Astrogator and Captain
may know when the ship is expected to exit Jump, but no-one else
necessarily does...

Matt 

--__--__--

Message: 8
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Big Brother
From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: 29 Apr 2002 08:35:31 -0600
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> An ex-Politician is in prison for perjury (telling lies in court).

Given that the entire basis of our court system is people telling the
truth in court, I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

--__--__--

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> >tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military
> vessel, its organization is 
> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category
> does not exist. STAR TREK 
> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman
> aboard the U.S.S. 
> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified
> astronaut, therefore an 
> >>>
> >officer."

This was true in the original series, but not in the
later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
could prescribe that for our good General?


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> > On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> > 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three
> bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of
> Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.
> 
> Turokan
> 
> ..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.  
> ---   -       -..   .. 
>  .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..  
> ...-   .   --..--     
>  .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-  
> .-.   .       -   .... 
>  .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---  
> ..-.       -   ....   . 
>      .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:47:47 -0500
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

A message from Warehouse 23 to Traveller fans:

>The details of ordering and availability for the Traveller Limited Edition
>Hardcover haven't been finalized yet.  We will make an announcement as soon
>as everything has been confirmed.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a collection of existing Traveller
>items.  It will be sold through normal distribution and you can get it at
>your friendly local game store, or through Warehouse 23.  Just to clear up
>some confusion: no, it isn't preorder only.
>
>If there's anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me
>here at orders@sjgames.com.

Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
the word out.

We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.

The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
through the normal FLGS channels.



Loren



--__--__--

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:21:03 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 11:47 AM 4/29/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
>them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
>the word out.
>
>We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
>and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses
out.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
>through the normal FLGS channels.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf 
shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


--__--__--

Message: 13
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] (no subject)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:16 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry

> I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



--__--__--

Message: 14
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:40:58 +0000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Brilliant!  I love it."


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  Please have fun using it in your campaigns.  You can 
see from the GM-imposed hardware/software/manning requirements that it was a

definite "fun quotient" tweak.

     "This should become part of canon, methinks."

     Nope, that's going way too far.  This is absolutely a MTU/YTU rule 
only.  Besides, I got a sneaking suspicion that many folks already have 
something like it in their TUs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:55:27 -0500
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
>--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is

>> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR
TREK 
>> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>> >>>officer."
>
>This was true in the original series, but not in the
>later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
>was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
>were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Again, TNG was also "officer-only" for its first couple of seasons.  And
Colm Meany's character was clearly an officer (specifically a Lt).  It was
only post-Rodenberry where they introduce enlisted personel and "redefined"
Colm Meany's character into the enlisted O'Brien.

Mike West


--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:43:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:43:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Opinions, please (MJ Dougherty)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22738@USCHM203>


-----Original Message-----
From: Hurrel, Brian 
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:39 PM
To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
Subject: From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>


"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
>circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
>there prospective writers?

>2.(re-Traveller Novel)So; supposing we serialized it in =
>the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?

Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:00 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #454 - 15 msgs


Send TML mailing list submissions to
	tml@travellercentral.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	tml-request@travellercentral.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
	tml-admin@travellercentral.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Re: Star Trek (Robert Houghton)
   2. Opinions, please (MJ Dougherty)
   3. Re: Re: Piracy assumptions (Leonard Erickson)
   4. Re: Big Brother (Jeff Rowse)
   5. an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern] (shadowcat)
   6. (OT) George Alec Effinger (knightsky@juno.com)
   7. RE: Re: Piracy assumptions (Matthew Bond)
   8. Re: Re: Big Brother (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
   9. Re: Re: Star Trek (allensh)
  10. Re: RAH and libertarianism (Paul Walker)
  11. (no subject) (Loren Wiseman)
  12. Re: (no subject) (Douglas Berry)
  13. RE: (no subject) (Swordy)
  14. Re: Grote's Clan Ships (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
  15. Re: Re: Star Trek (Mike West)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:54:07 +1000
From: Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
>>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK

>>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>>>
>officer."
>
>>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
>>
>TOS.
>
>Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
>people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
>doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.
>
And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
Bakula...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:03:35 +0100
Subject: [TML] Opinions, please
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a couple of questions for the list... consider this market =
research of a sort.

1. The Traveller's Aide series: what would folks like to see? The =
planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is there something =
specific?

For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
there prospective writers?

2. Some time ago I began work on a Traveller novel set during the =
Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems likely that the =
Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in a "Golden Age" =
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a couple of questions for the =
list...=20
consider this market research of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. The Traveller's Aide series: what =
would folks=20
like to see? The planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is =
there=20
something specific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what about a series of CT =
adventures=20
set in the Marches, circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make =
it worth=20
doing? Are there prospective writers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Some time ago I began work on a =
Traveller novel=20
set during the Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems =
likely=20
that the Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in =
a&nbsp;"Golden Age"=20
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the=20
Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220--


--__--__--

Message: 3
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 00:51:02 PST
Organization: Shadownet
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
>> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
>> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
>> time.
>
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
will suspecyt there's a misjump.

>
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
> live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
> always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
>                                                  --Mojo Nixon
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


--__--__--

Message: 4
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:52:01 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail (Digest, which is why I'm so far behind:-), "Matthew Bond" 
<mattgbond@ntlworld.com> said...

<SNIP>
Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in

the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
</SNIP>

I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4% 
failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company creating 
the system, or the local Police force.

*I* am merely repeating it.

To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently 
'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a lake 
have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in prison

for perjury (telling lies in court).
Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the 
prisons are too overcrowded"...

ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the 
*whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her 
mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.

Jeff.
"I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:18:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern]
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I picked up a book called "The Yard" by Michael S Sanders
it covers the construction of an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer
from the keel up by the Bath Iron Works, and various techniques and some 
interesting pictures and diagrams

which leads into the question of how starships are built

--__--__--

Message: 6
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:29:40 -0400
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: [TML] (OT) George Alec Effinger
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Some of you may already know this, but for those who haven't, George Alec
Effinger has passed away (it's been a rough couple of weeks for SF...
Damon Knight passed away not too long ago).  SJG's 'Daily Illuminator'
has more info: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:41:44 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com



> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: 29 April 2002 09:51
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >> 
> >> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> >> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> >> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> >> time.
> >
> > Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that 
> jump duration
> > is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that 
> passing the
> > minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> > average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, 
> without having
> > an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> > having an estimated breakout.
> 
> No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
> 168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
> will suspecyt there's a misjump.

Well, theres also the possiblity that the Astrogator miscalculated the
duration... so once the calculated time has elapsed the figures would be
checked and double checked. This will take some time. Then there will be
speculation that an uncharted massive body has interrupted the jump
route, thus throwing the duration out, even then one you get to 185
hours misjump will be the likely answer.

Also, IIRC, Jump sickness is more frequent in Misjumps, with onset of
headaches, dizzyness and nausea within 2-3 days of Jump initiation. So
that is likely to be the first indication of misjump rather than the
calculated duration passing.

And on the subject of Jump Sickness, I thought that Jeffery Long was the
guy that was in a coma after being the only known survivor of EVA during
Jump, and thus unshielded exposure to the Jump bubble. Simple Jump
Sickness is an accepted medical condition that some part of the
population suffers from in Jump, and which is more prevalent in a
misjump (and being one of the early telltales of a misjump)

As for the Illustration of a Jump Time Elapsed Display, rather than a
Countdown to Jump emergence, this may be to facilitate the Jump Exit
Lottery on the ship for passengers and crew. The Astrogator and Captain
may know when the ship is expected to exit Jump, but no-one else
necessarily does...

Matt 

--__--__--

Message: 8
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Big Brother
From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: 29 Apr 2002 08:35:31 -0600
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> An ex-Politician is in prison for perjury (telling lies in court).

Given that the entire basis of our court system is people telling the
truth in court, I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

--__--__--

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> >tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military
> vessel, its organization is 
> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category
> does not exist. STAR TREK 
> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman
> aboard the U.S.S. 
> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified
> astronaut, therefore an 
> >>>
> >officer."

This was true in the original series, but not in the
later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
could prescribe that for our good General?


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> > On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> > 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three
> bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of
> Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.
> 
> Turokan
> 
> ..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.  
> ---   -       -..   .. 
>  .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..  
> ...-   .   --..--     
>  .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-  
> .-.   .       -   .... 
>  .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---  
> ..-.       -   ....   . 
>      .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:47:47 -0500
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

A message from Warehouse 23 to Traveller fans:

>The details of ordering and availability for the Traveller Limited Edition
>Hardcover haven't been finalized yet.  We will make an announcement as soon
>as everything has been confirmed.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a collection of existing Traveller
>items.  It will be sold through normal distribution and you can get it at
>your friendly local game store, or through Warehouse 23.  Just to clear up
>some confusion: no, it isn't preorder only.
>
>If there's anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me
>here at orders@sjgames.com.

Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
the word out.

We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.

The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
through the normal FLGS channels.



Loren



--__--__--

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:21:03 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 11:47 AM 4/29/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
>them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
>the word out.
>
>We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
>and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses
out.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
>through the normal FLGS channels.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf 
shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


--__--__--

Message: 13
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] (no subject)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:16 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry

> I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



--__--__--

Message: 14
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:40:58 +0000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Brilliant!  I love it."


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  Please have fun using it in your campaigns.  You can 
see from the GM-imposed hardware/software/manning requirements that it was a

definite "fun quotient" tweak.

     "This should become part of canon, methinks."

     Nope, that's going way too far.  This is absolutely a MTU/YTU rule 
only.  Besides, I got a sneaking suspicion that many folks already have 
something like it in their TUs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:55:27 -0500
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
>--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is

>> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR
TREK 
>> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>> >>>officer."
>
>This was true in the original series, but not in the
>later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
>was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
>were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Again, TNG was also "officer-only" for its first couple of seasons.  And
Colm Meany's character was clearly an officer (specifically a Lt).  It was
only post-Rodenberry where they introduce enlisted personel and "redefined"
Colm Meany's character into the enlisted O'Brien.

Mike West


--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:48:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:48:00 2002
Subject: [TML] From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22737@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>

At 03:38 PM 4/29/02 -0400, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
>"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
> >circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
> >there prospective writers?
>
> >2.(re-Traveller Novel)So; supposing we serialized it in =
> >the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?
>
>Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?
[big honking snip]

request #1:  Please do not include the entire digest for a one line reply.

request #1:  Please do not send 'styled' text to the list.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 14:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 13:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with reprint of Double Adventures...
Message-ID: <20020429.130950.-72731.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:20:50 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> Donald McKinney says
> >Ok, I spilled a dark substance on page 1 of the "Stranded on 
> >Arden" adventure in my *NEW* reprints book.
> >
> 
> Ah, the dreaded Coffee...
> ________________
> NO! Sentence first, verdict after!

Guilty!

On old books it's forgiveable, but never on new...

Make him walk the plank Captain, arrgh.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 14:16:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 13:16:11 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020429.130950.-72731.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Paul

On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
> on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
> year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
> could prescribe that for our good General?
> 
> 
> --- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
>  > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
>
 > Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> > and my disability
> > pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.

Ah, thanks Paul, it's such a nice jesture.

Perhaps I could stow aboard a freighter?

ObTrav:
So just how could you get off world in my case?
I can't work.
I need assistance.
My funds are tied to this world mandating that I stick around or I don't
get paid.

 Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 15:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Mon Apr 29 14:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
References: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ccd9cd0.1320581@post.demon.co.uk>

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:


>To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently=20
>'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a =
lake=20
>have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in =
prison=20
>for perjury (telling lies in court).
>Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the=20
>prisons are too overcrowded"...

What's your argument regarding the politician?  That since we all know
politicians are liars anyway, nobody should be surprised or offended
if they tell lies in court as well?  Even if the politician in
question deliberately falsified his testimony in order to win a libel
case and thereby secure 6- or7-figure financial damages from the other
party?  Seems to me that's a far worse crime than simple mugging or
car theft...

Also, if you can point me to any real case in any country in the world
where a person accused of rape did not stand trial because "the jails
are full", I'd like to hear it.  I know some countries have "prison
amnesties", and others have been known to extend schemes for parole
and early release, but that's for tried and convicted criminals who
have already served part of their sentence... and I doubt that the
scheme would extend to such a serious crime as rape.  But I'm willing
to be proved wrong if you have evidence.

ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
request.  He states that he is currently engaged in a messy divorce,
and it would be very helpful to his case if the players were willing
to swear that he was having dinner with them on a particular evening.
He offers a generous financial inducement to do this, and suggests to
the players that they should make a formal written deposition before a
lawyer then leave planet.  He promises to only use the deposition if
his wife's lawyers raise that particular evening in court.

If the players agree, then on their next visit to the world (which
might not be for a significant time), they discover that the
politician is still happily married, and won a multi-million credit
settlement in a libel case against a media organisation - thanks
entirely to their (false) evidence.  Do they:

a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
b)  Report the case to the authorities?
c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?

Of course, the problem is that their own involvement in the case was
criminal;  and the politician is a highly respected member of the
governing party and personal friend of the planet's leader.  The media
group that lost the case is keen for redress and could help them, but
it is also running scared of the politician's influence having been
burned once already.  Can the players prove their side of the story?
(Perhaps they can gain access to CCTV camera footage of the night in
question <g> ?)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 16:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 15:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Advanced Battle Armor
Message-ID: <f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39@aol.com>

--part1_f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Hi gang, while surfing the WWweb, I found mention of an article in JTAS 
#3, apparently by a Bob Barger (? I'm having a heck of a time reading my own 
scrawl), called Advanced Battle Armor (?).
   If someone has that issue handy, could they share the particulars?
   Thanks :)
  -Ken Murphy-

--part1_f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi gang, while surfing the WWweb, I found mention of an article in JTAS #3, apparently by a Bob Barger (? I'm having a heck of a time reading my own scrawl), called Advanced Battle Armor (?).
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;If someone has that issue handy, could they share the particulars?
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 17:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Star Trek
Message-ID: <15b.d29cb96.29ff2d05@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/29/2002 2:02:37 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
>Bakula...

You kids today . . .              :  )

I did this once before -- isn't in the archives someplace?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 18:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr 29 17:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3ccd9cd0.1320581@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000201c1efdf$ca99b120$0b01a8c0@duck>

> ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
> world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
> request.  He states that he is currently engaged in a messy divorce,
> and it would be very helpful to his case if the players were willing
> to swear that he was having dinner with them on a particular evening.
> He offers a generous financial inducement to do this, and suggests to
> the players that they should make a formal written deposition before a
> lawyer then leave planet.  He promises to only use the deposition if
> his wife's lawyers raise that particular evening in court.
> 
> If the players agree, then on their next visit to the world (which
> might not be for a significant time), they discover that the
> politician is still happily married, and won a multi-million credit
> settlement in a libel case against a media organisation - thanks
> entirely to their (false) evidence.  Do they:
> 
> a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
> b)  Report the case to the authorities?
> c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?
> 
> Of course, the problem is that their own involvement in the case was
> criminal;  and the politician is a highly respected member of the
> governing party and personal friend of the planet's leader.  The media
> group that lost the case is keen for redress and could help them, but
> it is also running scared of the politician's influence having been
> burned once already.  Can the players prove their side of the story?
> (Perhaps they can gain access to CCTV camera footage of the night in
> question <g> ?)

[I hate to use the whole thing for such a short answer, but I wanted to
keep the context.]

Considering the deal the players made in the first place, a sudden
attack of ethics would seem to be a bit out of place.  They willingly
lied and got paid for it.  Seems pretty bizarre that they would care
that the politician used it for different purposes.

Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 19:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 18:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <20020429.182302.-125801.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:41:39 -0500 "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
writes:
> > ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
> > world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
> > request.  
<snipage>
> > a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
> > b)  Report the case to the authorities?
> > c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?
> > 
> 
> Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
> now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?
> 
> Mike West

Though up front I'd agree and choose [a], if looking deeper I could
choose [c].

My assumption is:
1. The players are already involved in a blackmail scheme against the
politician's wife.
Why?
Money.
If they had scruples, they wouldn't have taken the credits in the first
place.

2. The politician received a huge settlement.
A or some of the players bent on greed may have spent their credits, and
now want more to keep quiet.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 20:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr 29 19:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <20020429.182302.-125801.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>

generalturokan@juno.com
> On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:41:39 -0500 "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
> writes:
> > > ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
> > > world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
> > > request.  
> <snipage>
> > > a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
> > > b)  Report the case to the authorities?
> > > c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?
> > > 
> > 
> > Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
> > now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?
> 
> Though up front I'd agree and choose [a], if looking deeper I could
> choose [c].
> 
> My assumption is:
> 1. The players are already involved in a blackmail scheme against the
> politician's wife.
> Why?
> Money.
> If they had scruples, they wouldn't have taken the credits in the first
> place.
> 
> 2. The politician received a huge settlement.
> A or some of the players bent on greed may have spent their credits, and
> now want more to keep quiet.

I have to admit that I did have the assumption that the politician was
continuing to be friendly to them.  If so, I still stick with [a].  If,
however, the politician becomes hostile for some reason, then I completely
agree that [c] is quite appropriate.

The problem is that if the players pick [c], they probably need to add
that planet to their list of places to avoid for a while.  If they chose
[a], the planet could quite possibly be a good destination, instead.

I do want to note that I think we both agree that [b] is quite pointless.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 20:42:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 19:42:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <20020429.182302.-125801.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020429224441.00e45840@buffnet.net>

Of course, were I that politician, I'd consider the fact that *all* of the
potential loose ends can be tied up neatly together, by exploding a bit of
cheap missile weaponry upon the ship...  (and it would look like piracy
too!)  At the very least, pay a bomber to bomb the ship through a cutout on
the grounds of "insurance"...

;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 21:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 20:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <20020429.203207.-125683.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 22:44:41 -0400 hal@buffnet.net writes:
> Of course, were I that politician, I'd consider the fact that *all* 
> of the
> potential loose ends can be tied up neatly together, by exploding a 
> bit of
> cheap missile weaponry upon the ship...  (and it would look like 
> piracy
> too!)  At the very least, pay a bomber to bomb the ship through a 
> cutout on
> the grounds of "insurance"...
> 
> ;)
> 

Ooooo, nice closing touch. The politician takes the lead.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 23:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr 29 22:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <20413.122049.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429160538.02a58ab0@mail.qrc.com>

At 08:59 PM 4/21/02, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
> > Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
> > Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system.
>
>All i am reporting is what the average user, the "plug & pray" type, have 
>told me in the shop.

In my humble opinion, this is the difference between someone in Traveller 
with computer skill, and someone who doesn't.  I assume that someone who is 
from a moderate tech or higher (TL-8+) background can use a computer for 
normal sorts of activities (word processing, looking up references, etc.) 
without computer skill, and without needing to make a roll to operate the 
computer.  On the other hand, "unusual" use of the computer - bypassing 
security restrictions, reading nonstandard files or media, finding 
information that was deliberately obscured, obscuring information that you 
don't want people to find, and that sort of thing are what Computer skill 
is for.

>That some of the Os is put on the disk in what I know as track and 
>sectors. I was told that the track and sectors for this information change 
>with the upgrades.

All operating systems (that I'm aware of) organize a disk into tracks and 
sectors (or cylinders, heads, and sectors which is basically the same 
thing).  For floppy disks, the newer operating systems have more options 
than the old ones, but all are "upward compatible" - the new operating 
system knows how to read the older format.  If you have an old floppy, as 
long as the media hasn't physically degraded, Windows XP can read a disk 
formatted and written from an old 286-based Windows 2 machine.  And Office 
XP can read the Word for Windows file format.

>Therefore this is a reason why newer systems have trouble or can't read
>the older disks.

The usual reason isn't incompatibility but media degradation.  Floppy disks 
were never intended for archival storage of data; they're better than many 
forms of magnetic tape, but aren't going to last forever.  When I worked 
for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, we had a tape 
library that contained satellite data for US weather satellites (going back 
to the first data sent from the very first, in the 1950's).  As part of the 
maintenance of the library, tapes were pulled for check reads (once every 5 
or 10 years, I believe) and any that had begun to degrade were re-recorded 
onto new media.

If you've got computer data that you want to store for the long haul, right 
now the best bet is to burn it to a CD-ROM.  Unlike floppies, the CD-ROM 
file format is a world-wide standard published by the International 
Standards Organization.  It works a lot like I envisioned Traveller media 
standards.  There is a published standard that is available to anyone who 
cares to read it that sets out exactly what is required to read (or write) 
audio or data to a CD-ROM - from the composition of the media all the way 
through the organization of the data.  Any computer that supports CD-ROM 
drives, can read an ISO disk.  Some - mainly those with Microsoft operating 
systems - can write other formats as well; those disks only work with 
compatible Microsoft operating systems.

>I would think that there are Imperial standards for navigation. Set 
>probably by the ISS.

I'd say that the IISS (and in particular the Imperial Grand Survey) has a 
standard format for navigational data, and probably a small number of 
different media that they support.  Thus, there may be thousands of 
different manufacturers of starship avionics in the Imperium, and thousands 
more software houses that write navigational software.  But they can all 
read IISS navigational data, and they all come equipped with an Imperial 
data reader that can read at least one of the media types that the IISS 
supports.

The same goes for basic data transfer of other types.  The IISS (in this 
case via the Express Boat network) has a set of standard formats and media 
types for messages: text, audio, still image, video, holo, and probably a 
couple of other formats for data that is commonly transferred over the 
Xboat network.  A good model for this is the venerable GIF format for 
pictures - it was promulgated by Compuserve, back in the day, much the same 
way that the Xboat system would promulgate standard data formats in the 
Imperium.  Even though Compuserve is now gone, the GIF format still endures 
- and almost any computer can read it.

> > The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
> > either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
> > to import and export files in those formats.
>
>In Traveller, on frontiere worlds that are doing their own thing. This 
>could grow into a sense of "National" pride. Or the thought of being 
>"forced" into
>something.

IMTU, this sort of compatibility isn't forced on manufacturers by 
legislation.  The standards are made available by the IISS (for free or a 
very nominal price) to anyone who asks for them, and don't incorporate any 
proprietary technology or techniques - so that anyone who reads and 
understands the standard can build hardware or software that's 
compatible.  There's no legal requirement that anyone do so ... BUT there's 
also a strong disincentive in the market.  If two computers are available, 
both of which can read both the "local" formats and media, but only one of 
which can talk to Imperially-based navigation, news, and Xboat traffic 
systems, which one will eventually win in the market place?  Particularly 
if there is no significant cost difference?  There may well be local file 
and media formats - but sooner or later, everyone will be able to read the 
Imperial formats one way or another.

However, this is an on-going process: worlds that recently developed the 
technology, or were recently incorporated into the Imperial interstellar 
economy, are likely to be in transition, with the market forces still 
sorting things out.


>  Still I suspect that there is something going on in the
>computer line. Where the files are sent say from the x-boat to panet and
>revers. Where it is translated to the usable format for the receptor of
>the information.
>
> > Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
> > equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
> > finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice.
>
>  Myself, I am working on converting PET to geoWrite 2.1 then converting
>the final output to Ascii for upload to the places I write for through the
>Inet. I can do the revese and prefere to do all my writing in GeoWrite 2.1
>Takes just a few minutes to convert back and forth. Perhaps that is a
>thought for the Imperial mail at least. Though expanded for images and
>text for the local systems.
>
>BCNU
>
>--
>  *****
>******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
>**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
>**            Chancellor & Editor for
>**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
>******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
>  *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 00:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 29 23:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3ccd9cd0.1320581@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20429.214428.7c5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Also, if you can point me to any real case in any country in the world
> where a person accused of rape did not stand trial because "the jails
> are full", I'd like to hear it.  I know some countries have "prison
> amnesties", and others have been known to extend schemes for parole
> and early release, but that's for tried and convicted criminals who
> have already served part of their sentence... and I doubt that the
> scheme would extend to such a serious crime as rape.  But I'm willing
> to be proved wrong if you have evidence.

The local jails are having to release a *lot* of folks *before* trial
and hope they show up for trial due to the need to have space available
if there are riots this May Day.

There *are* rules for who gets released bnased on some sort of "points"
assigned at booking.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 01:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 30 00:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
Message-ID: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

This has become something of a TML tradition.  Every April 30, someone posts
this to the TML. This time, it's me.

##########

This battle took place on the 30th of April 1863, during the campaign of
Mexico. It is celebrated each year, on the anniversary of this date, by all
the regiments of the French Foreign Legion.

History: 

The French Army was besieging Puebla.

The mission of the Legion was to ensure the movement and safety of the
convoys, over an 80 mile distance. On the 29th of April 1863, Colonel
Jeanningros was informed that an important convoy was on its way to Puebla,
with a load of 3 million francs, and material and munitions for the seige.
Captain Danjou, his quartermaster, decided to send a company to escort the
convoy. The 3rd company of the Foreign Regiment was assigned to this
mission, but had no officers available. So Captain Danjou, himself, took the
command and 2nd lieutenants Maudet, company guide, and Vilain, the
paymaster, joined him voluntarily.

On the 30th of April, at 1 a.m., the 3rd company was on its way, with its 3
officers and 62 men. At 7 a.m., after a 15 mile march, it stopped at Palo
Verde in order to get some rest. At this very moment, the enemy showed up
and the battle began. Captain Danjou made the company take up a square
formation and, even though retreating, he victoriously drove back several
cavalry charges, inflicting the first heavy losses on the enemy .

By the inn of Camerone, a large building with a courtyard protected by a
wall 3 meters high, Danjou decided to stay, in order to keep the enemy and
so delay for as long as possible, any attacks on the convoy.

While the legionnaires were rapidly setting up the defense of the inn, a
Mexican officer demanded that Captain Danjou surrender, pointing out the
fact that the Mexican Army was greatly superior in number.

Danjou's answer was: "We have munitions. We will not surrender." Then, he
swore to fight to the death and made his men swear the same. It was 10 a.m.
Until 6 p.m., these 60 men who had had nothing to eat or drink since the day
before, in spite of the extreme heat, of the thirst and hunger, resisted
against 2,000 Mexicans: 800 cavalry and 1,200 infantry.

At noon, Captain Danjou was shot in the chest and died. At 2 p.m., 2nd
lieutenant Vilain was shot in the head. About this time, the Mexican colonel
succeeded in setting the inn on fire.

In spite of the heat and the smoke, the legionnaires resisted, but many of
them were killed or injured. By 5 p.m., only 12 men could still fight with
2nd lieutenant Maudet. At this time, the Mexican colonel gathered his
soldiers and told them what disgrace it would be if they were unable to
defeat such a small number of men. The Mexicans were about to give the
general assault through holes opened in the walls of the courtyard, but
Colonel Milan, who had previously asked 2nd lieutenant Maudet to surrender,
once again gave him the opportunity to. Maudet scornfully refused.

The final charge was given. Soon, only 5 men were left around Maudet;
Corporal Maine, legionnaires Catteau, Wensel, Constantin and Leonard. Each
had only one bullet left. In a corner of the courtyard, their back against
the wall, still facing the enemy, they fixed bayonets. When the signal was
given, they opened fire and fought with their bayonets. 2nd lieutenant
Maudet and 2 legionnaires fell, mortally wounded. Maine and his 2 remaining
companions were about to be slaughtered when a Mexican officer saved them.
He shouted: "Surrender"!

"We will only if you promise to allow us to carry and care for our injured
men and if you leave us our guns".

"Nothing can be refused to men like you"!, answered the officer.

Captain Danjou's men had kept their promise; for 11 hours, they had resisted
2,000 enemy troops. They had killed 300 of them and had injured as many.
Their sacrifice had saved the convoy and they had fulfilled their mission.

Emperor Napoleon the 3rd decided that the name of Camerone would be written
on the flag of the Foreign Regiment and the names of Danjou, Vilain and
Maudet would be engraved in golden letters on the walls of the Invalides, in
Paris. 

Moreover, a monument was built in 1892, at the very place of the fight. The
following inscription can be read there :

HERE, THEY WERE LESS THAN SIXTY
AGAINST A WHOLE ARMY
ITS MASS CRUSHED THEM
BUT LIFE RATHER THAN COURAGE
ABANDONED THESE FRENCH SOLDIERS
THE 30TH OF APRIL 1863.
TO THEIR MEMORY THE NATION BUILT THIS MONUMENT.

Since then, when Mexican troops pass by the monument, they present arms.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 03:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 02:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Seems to me that the TML is very quiet right now... I was getting hundreds
of posts a couple of weeks back.

Anyway, here's how things stand here:

Traveller's Aide #1 is out, #2 is in layout. We have drafts for 3-5 more due
in over the next few days. Depending what order they come in, the next
volumes will include a sourcebook on ground vehicles, a ready-NPC book and
an adventure. All CT compatible as well as T20, as usual.

Question is, what do folks want?

All our materials will be T20 compatible - that's a necessity - but we have
the leeway to support CT and the entire Traveller timeline. That means: CT
adventures set in the Marches or the Rim, major sourcebooks on.... whatever.
We're open to suggestions. Tell us what you want from the product line, and
we'll see what we can do....

Regards

MJD







From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 03:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 02:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <01af01c1f02a$4016c010$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Comments are invited...

Some time ago Marc and I began work on a Traveller/naval SF novel. It had a
different title back then but now it's called "The Last Hurrah". Set in the
Interstellar Wars, it was going to be the Traveller Novel, but it seems more
sensible to set a print novel in the "current" Traveller universe. That
leaves Last Hurrah as a bit of an orphan.

Now, what I'm thinking of doing is serializing it as part of the Quiklink
line (but separate from the Traveller's Aide series), as a series of PDFs of
LBB size (say 20,000 words each).

Consider this market research; I need to know if it's worth editing,
reformatting and such like before doing it (very busy right now, as you
might guess).

One note: Marc hasn't got time to work on this; although he co-authored the
early chapters (and had a LOT of creative input), this is not the great Marc
Miller novel. I don't want to mislead anyone on that score.

But anyway: The Last Hurrah is about a band of Terran naval officers during
the Interstellar Wars. I don't want to give much more away than that, but I
might be willing to post the Prologue on the Quiklink site....








Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 04:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 03:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Reviews
Message-ID: <01d301c1f02e$1765e480$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Here's an offer for you...

We're looking for reviewers... and we've got bribes.

We're offering $25 worth of Quiklink Products (*anything* Quiklink sells) to
the first three reviewers to post their comments to the TML.

Here's how it works:

If you're interested, mail me direct. We'll give you a free copy of
Traveller's Aide #1. Once your review is posted, you can cash in your Cr25
for anything Quiklink has to offer.

There are a couple of requirements though:

1. the review must be longer than "it sucks" or even "it sets off
decompression alarms"
2. we'd like to be able to repost the review elsewhere as needed

If you're interested, let me know ASAP.




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 04:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 03:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020316084747.B31496@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20430.013319.6P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Another oldie getting replied to.

In mail you write:

> Daniel Tackett wrote:
>
>> > to (as I recall) *50* times the mass. 
>
>> I hate to butt in, but out of curiosity. Could a gas
>> giant that large be skimmed?
>
> Not a chance, unless your tech greatly exceeds Traveller levels.
> Either you skim at orbital velocities, which are huge and hence you
> get *really hot*, or not, in which case you immediately fall due to
> insufficient thrust.
>
>
>> I find it hard to believe that a gas giant of any size
>> could be skimmed considering the pull of gravity.
>
> In Traveller, some ships could probably cope with up to 3 Jupiter
> masses.  Specialised unmanned skimming 'missiles' could cope with up
> to about 10.

Don't forget that gas giants more massive than Jupiter will be
*smaller*. Which means that gravity at "skimming altitude" will be even
stronger than the simple mass increase would indicate.

Any of the astronomers on the list have even a *rough* formula or table
for the way gas giant diameter varies with mass?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
In-Reply-To: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>

At 10:13 AM 4/30/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>Seems to me that the TML is very quiet right now... I was getting hundreds
>of posts a couple of weeks back.
>Anyway, here's how things stand here:
>Traveller's Aide #1 is out, #2 is in layout. We have drafts for 3-5 more due
>in over the next few days. Depending what order they come in, the next
>volumes will include a sourcebook on ground vehicles, a ready-NPC book and
>an adventure. All CT compatible as well as T20, as usual.
>Question is, what do folks want?
>All our materials will be T20 compatible - that's a necessity - but we have
>the leeway to support CT and the entire Traveller timeline. That means: CT
>adventures set in the Marches or the Rim, major sourcebooks on.... whatever.
>We're open to suggestions. Tell us what you want from the product line, and
>we'll see what we can do....

I really like the CT compatibility.  I'm in several PBEMs that use CT.

Hmm...the Marches are really nice, but how about some RIM and Reavers' Deep 
material first.
Lots of stuff out already for the Marches.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine.
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020429.130950.-72731.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020430121047.21439.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

You do lots of volunteer data entry for the TAS and
hope to get paid with a free membership, then you only
need to scrape enough money together to eat.  TAS
gives you a high passage per month, plus lodging.  Of
course, you may be stuck somewhere undesireable for a
month until you get your next HiPsg.

Paul


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> ObTrav:
> So just how could you get off world in my case?
> I can't work.
> I need assistance.
> My funds are tied to this world mandating that I
> stick around or I don't
> get paid.
> 
>  Turokan



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <3cce7ff8.11067789@post.demon.co.uk>

"Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com> writes:

>I have to admit that I did have the assumption that the politician was
>continuing to be friendly to them.  If so, I still stick with [a].  If,
>however, the politician becomes hostile for some reason, then I =
completely
>agree that [c] is quite appropriate.

Actually, my assumption was that the politician had pretty much
forgotten their existence - they were off-worlders who were useful to
him for a while, got paid off and left town.
>
>The problem is that if the players pick [c], they probably need to add
>that planet to their list of places to avoid for a while.  If they chose
>[a], the planet could quite possibly be a good destination, instead.
>
>I do want to note that I think we both agree that [b] is quite =
pointless.

In the real-life situation this is based on, the person giving the
politician the original alibi chose (b).  Go figure...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <025b01c1f042$9094c060$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> I really like the CT compatibility.  I'm in several PBEMs that use CT.
>
> Hmm...the Marches are really nice, but how about some RIM and Reavers'
Deep
> material first.
> Lots of stuff out already for the Marches.

Sounds cool. Anyone care to write some?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 07:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Apr 30 06:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <F218qk0qcITzSOFI3Jz00003ef4@hotmail.com>

OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?


>From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] (no subject)
>Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:16 -0400
>
>http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
>
> > I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> > shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!
>
>



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 30 06:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <F218qk0qcITzSOFI3Jz00003ef4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCELIDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Ummm.... Avery!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Andrew MacLintock
>
> OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?
>
> >From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
> >
> >http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> >
> > > I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> > > shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 07:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 06:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
In-Reply-To: <025b01c1f042$9094c060$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430094632.00b85cb0@urbin.net>

At 01:28 PM 4/30/02 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > I really like the CT compatibility.  I'm in several PBEMs that use CT.
> > Hmm...the Marches are really nice, but how about some RIM and Reavers'
>Deep
> > material first.
> > Lots of stuff out already for the Marches.
>Sounds cool. Anyone care to write some?

There was a lot of material written for Reavers' Deep by the TNE Pocket group.
The Deep was the domain of the Keith Brothers, and we had permission from 
them to update for TNE.

Some members of that group (like myself) are still on the TML.
Material from there could be published pretty much 'as is' for TNE.

For other era'/timelines, it could be modified.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 08:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 07:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020430094632.00b85cb0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <02a701c1f050$eed3c370$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> There was a lot of material written for Reavers' Deep by the TNE Pocket
group.
> The Deep was the domain of the Keith Brothers, and we had permission from
> them to update for TNE.
>
> Some members of that group (like myself) are still on the TML.
> Material from there could be published pretty much 'as is' for TNE.
>
> For other era'/timelines, it could be modified.
>

I think I'd like to see this.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 08:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue Apr 30 07:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (sorta OT) Fw: [FT] Naval Manpower
Message-ID: <006a01c1f04d$29923400$1f9e15ac@warrior>

I think you guys can figure out the obtrav for this one :)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Donogh McCarthy" <donoghmc@hotmail.com>
To: <gzg@firedrake.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:15 AM
Subject: [FT] Naval Manpower


>
>
> Interesting article on Northrops new naval designs
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5236-2002Apr29.html
>
> In relation to the new Destroyer Class design it states:
>
> "Under the plan, sailors' standard of living also would be drastically
> improved. For example, three-tier bunk beds would be replaced with
> staterooms shared by as many as three sailors and outfitted with computers
> and Internet connections. Crew sizes would drop from 300 to 125, then
> eventually to 95. "It allows the Navy to free up a lot of resources,"
> [defense analyst Jay] Korman said.
>
> Questions arising from this:
>
> 1. What kind of % of total personnel is there is each area of operations
on
> board a military naval vessel?
>
> 2. Presumably there as some tasks manpower is always needed for, that
can't
> be automated. What kind of tasks would these be, and what plausible sci-fi
> elements could lead to these being done by automation?
>
> 3. Also presumably you need 2-3 times the number of people needed to do
all
> the jobs. Does anyone see this aspect of crew requirments as ever being
able
> to change?
>
> 4. Would crew comfort, health etc. be a bigger concern in space, and would
> this lead to larger vessels or smaller crews; or shorter deployment times?
>
> Any thoughts?
> Donogh
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 08:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 07:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
In-Reply-To: <02a701c1f050$eed3c370$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020430094632.00b85cb0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430104838.00b887e0@urbin.net>

At 03:11 PM 4/30/02 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > There was a lot of material written for Reavers' Deep by the TNE Pocket
>group.
> > The Deep was the domain of the Keith Brothers, and we had permission from
> > them to update for TNE.
> > Some members of that group (like myself) are still on the TML.
> > Material from there could be published pretty much 'as is' for TNE.
> > For other era'/timelines, it could be modified.
>I think I'd like to see this.

I have the full archives squirrelled away somewhere, plus they are also 
online, somewhere, in compressed format.

For a start, take a look at some my stuff:

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/sa-sc.html>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/rangetruck.html>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/tl5-6_seaplane.html>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/Venice_data.htm>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
Message-ID: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>

--part1_15e.cff6a74.2a000c32_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Folks,

Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/

The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
product line.

For those of you who are JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in
Brubek's on Wednesday evening to discuss the changes and what they
mean for the fan community. There should be another chat next week if
you can't make the May 1 one. Both Loren and I subscribe to this mailing
list too, so we're available for any discussions.

Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be working with Loren and Marc
Miller on the continued development of the Traveller universe. Traveller has
been a favorite of mine for over twenty years, so the chance to contribute in
this fashion is very gratifying.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_15e.cff6a74.2a000c32_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Folks,
<BR>
<BR>Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:
<BR>
<BR>http://www.sjgames.com/ill/
<BR>
<BR>The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
<BR>Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
<BR>will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
<BR>product line.
<BR>
<BR>For those of you who are JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in
<BR>Brubek's on Wednesday evening to discuss the changes and what they
<BR>mean for the fan community. There should be another chat next week if
<BR>you can't make the May 1 one. Both Loren and I subscribe to this mailing
<BR>list too, so we're available for any discussions.
<BR>
<BR>Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be working with Loren and Marc
<BR>Miller on the continued development of the Traveller universe. Traveller has
<BR>been a favorite of mine for over twenty years, so the chance to contribute in
<BR>this fashion is very gratifying.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_15e.cff6a74.2a000c32_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Thanks!
Message-ID: <l03010d06b8f46090bf4e@[206.224.92.67]>

As I do every Quarter, I would like to thank the gentlesophonts on the TML
for ordering books and stuff from Amazon.com through the link on my web
page.

For those who don't know, I get a 5% bounty on almost anything you order
provided you use the button on

http://www.lorenwiseman.com

Scroll down, hit the button (which will take you to Amazon) and then order
normally. It doesn't cost you anything extra (except a little time), and
you will help subsidize my reading habit. If you are going to buy something
through Amazon anyway, why not toss me a little something extra?

LKW



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
References: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02ed01c1f05a$50cf4b90$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_02EA_01C1F062.9FF0E370
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to=20
Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and=20
will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the=20
product line.=20

For those of you who are JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in=20
Brubek's on Wednesday evening to discuss the changes and what they=20
mean for the fan community. There should be another chat next week if=20
you can't make the May 1 one. Both Loren and I subscribe to this mailing =

list too, so we're available for any discussions.=20

Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be working with Loren and Marc =

Miller on the continued development of the Traveller universe. Traveller =
has=20
been a favorite of mine for over twenty years, so the chance to =
contribute in=20
this fashion is very gratifying.=20



***** Stands up and cheers ******

That's great. Not only good guys at the helm but it shows a commitment =
to the GT line at SJG.

Okay, back to work now,,,,

Regards

MJD

------=_NextPart_000_02EA_01C1F062.9FF0E370
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>The executive summary =
is that Loren=20
Wiseman is being promoted to <BR>Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. =
I've=20
been named Line Editor and <BR>will be assisting Loren with planning and =

day-to-day management of the <BR>product line. <BR><BR>For those of you =
who are=20
JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in <BR>Brubek's on Wednesday =
evening=20
to discuss the changes and what they <BR>mean for the fan community. =
There=20
should be another chat next week if <BR>you can't make the May 1 one. =
Both Loren=20
and I subscribe to this mailing <BR>list too, so we're available for any =

discussions. <BR><BR>Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be =
working with=20
Loren and Marc <BR>Miller on the continued development of the Traveller=20
universe. Traveller has <BR>been a favorite of mine for over twenty =
years, so=20
the chance to contribute in <BR>this fashion is very gratifying.=20
<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>***** Stands up and =
cheers=20
******</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>That's great. Not only =
good guys at=20
the helm but it shows a commitment to the GT line at =
SJG.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>Okay, back to work=20
now,,,,</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2>Regards</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT=20
size=3D2>MJD</DIV></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_02EA_01C1F062.9FF0E370--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
In-Reply-To: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020430083905.009f8430@mindspring.com>

At 12:27 AM 4/30/02 -0700, you wrote:
>HERE, THEY WERE LESS THAN SIXTY
>AGAINST A WHOLE ARMY
>ITS MASS CRUSHED THEM
>BUT LIFE RATHER THAN COURAGE
>ABANDONED THESE FRENCH SOLDIERS
>THE 30TH OF APRIL 1863.
>TO THEIR MEMORY THE NATION BUILT THIS MONUMENT.

We used to have this read to us in the Army.  Someday, I want to visit the 
monument.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML Haiku
Message-ID: <200204301610.FII07851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

This one is a "generic combat", but I'm sure some of you have 
ObTrav haiku you've thought of.  They don't have to be combat 
oriented, either

Red streak of tracers
Steady thump of machinegun
Splintering tree limbs
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:14:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:14:08 2002
Subject: [TML] More TML Haiku
Message-ID: <200204301613.FII08329@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ok, one more ObTrav

Sparkling laser beams
Tinny sound of suit alarm
Hissing air escapes
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] just one more
Message-ID: <200204301628.FIK01334@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

And for those of you standing on the surface of a gas giant's 
moon....

Gleaming arc of rings
Frozen nitrogen crunches
Boots leave my footprints
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:38:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:38:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <F12ZUr3CrJRxKZMqA4d00004f37@hotmail.com>

In mail, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> rightly points out that...

<SNIP>
...the entire basis of our court system is people telling the truth in 
court...
</SNIP>

That wasn't the point though.  The point was supposed to be a commentary on 
the British (In)Justice system.
If he had killed a six-year-old girl standing on a pavement (sidewalk) next 
to a pedestrian crossing whilst he was driving under the influence of 
alcohol, he would have been given a GB250 fine and a three month suspended 
sentence.
But because he (shock, horror) omitted to tell the *whole* truth and 
slightly 'bent' what truth he did tell in a libel case against a national 
newspaper, he gets a five year jail sentence.


<SNIP>
...I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.
</SNIP>

Make the punishment fit the crime.  The "gentleman" in question did not 
physically hurt anyone, or steal from them.  He was not a danger to the 
public.
If his lies had resulted in people being hurt then yes, jail him.  All this 
has done is make more people realise what a stupid bunch of incompetent 
jerks we have for judges in England.
Another example, a judge sentenced a young man (I think the charge was 
disturbing the peace - again, nobody suffered physically) to something like 
a GB1500 fine, and then refused to believe the kid was only getting 
something like GB100 a week in wages stacking shelves at the local 
supermarket.  The supermarket manager had to provide their salary and tax 
records before the judge would believe it...

Jeff.
"Take cover?  Why, he can't hit us from over th..."

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML Haiku
In-Reply-To: <200204301610.FII07851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020430093325.009e8330@mindspring.com>

At 12:10 PM 4/30/02 -0400, you wrote:
>This one is a "generic combat", but I'm sure some of you have
>ObTrav haiku you've thought of.  They don't have to be combat
>oriented, either

Traveller Mail List
Three hundred in the mail box
Reading all morning

Near-C rock flame again?
This argument never ends
Perhaps piracy?

Free trader jumping
Laughs at the laws of physics
Boring week in here

Bright career in Scouts
Hoping for my own Type S
3? Damn, I have died!

Sex and politics
Tend to dominate the list
Find ObTrav, stat!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:48:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:48:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <200204301644.FIK03907@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Jeff Rowse" says
>Make the punishment fit the crime.  The "gentleman" =
in =

>question did not physically hurt anyone, or steal from =

>them.  He was not a danger to the public.
>If his lies had resulted in=
 people being hurt then yes, jail =

>him.  All this has done is make more people realise what a =

>stupid bunch of incompetent jerks we have for judges in =

>England.
>Another example, a judge sentenced a young man (I think the =
=

>charge was disturbing the peace - again, nobody suffered =

>physically) to something like a GB=A31500 fine, and then =

>refused to believe the kid was only getting =

>something like GB=A3100 a week in wages stacking shelves at =

>the local supermarket.  The supermarket manager had to =

>provide their salary and tax records before the judge would =

>believe it...
>

Drunken killer walks
Perjurer gets jail sentence
=
And this is justice?

________________
Sunlight on windows
Office bu=
ildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 11:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 10:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
In-Reply-To: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
References: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200204301320030096.0DA6983B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
>Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
>will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
>product line.

Congratulations to the both of you! Traveller continues to be well=
 represented at SJG!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 11:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 30 10:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] More TML Haiku
Message-ID: <20020430173521.6110.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

Not the best Haiku, but while we were at the topic...

Haiku are very strange
SciFi can be even stranger yet
Together seems fit

TML is quiet
Haiku can save the day here
Reading to think on

Paper, pens, and die
Two D6 thank you very much
All we need for fun

Marc, Loren, et al
You built a play universe
Thank you much for Trav


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:16:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:16:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
Message-ID: <memo.996438@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Thank you for keeping this fine tradition alive.

They always say that 2 dates are important to the French Foreign Legion - 
1863 and 1664.

We have just heard, as is right and proper, about 1863.

And 1664? - it's printed on the side of every can of Kronenburg beer, a 
favourite beverage amongst Legionnaires :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:19:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:19:01 2002
Subject: [TML] TML- Travellers' Aide
Message-ID: <memo.996439@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Greetings dear hearts.

I would like to see: -

Equipment - NOT just weapons, but the useful everyday stuff that players 
always want to acquire as they plan the next job, and you end up quickly 
calculating Travelleresque prices and descriptions around everyday items.

Medical (and recreational) drugs properly developed. And some good 
illnesses which the drugs can be used to treat... :-)

Well-detailed planets to visit. 

A fully-detailed starport (ground port or up port...).

Shops and businesses - how often do your players say "I'm looking for a 
clothes shop or a coffee bar" and you have to make it up on the fly?

Just some thoughts...

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:23:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
Message-ID: <memo.996441@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
Hoo-yah!!!

Warmest congratulations and blessings for the future to both of you :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
Message-ID: <20020430184406.48777.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

Back in 97, when I was last in Trav, we were working
on THUDD.  Is THUDD still around?  If so, where is it
happening?  In the immortal words of #5, "Need more
input!"

Thanks for any info.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 13:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 12:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML- Travellers' Aide
In-Reply-To: <memo.996439@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430150810.00b84e80@urbin.net>

At 07:15 PM 4/30/02 +0100, Megan Robertson wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
>Greetings dear hearts.
>I would like to see: -
>Equipment - NOT just weapons, but the useful everyday stuff that players
>always want to acquire as they plan the next job, and you end up quickly
>calculating Travelleresque prices and descriptions around everyday items.

Ah yes...the standard kit collects.

Personal Computer & Personal Communications Units (Percomps & Percomms).
I like to combine the two into a single unit with multiple I/O interfaces 
starting at TL 8 and getting more feature rich and robust (and more 'shock 
resistant') as TLs rise.

Multitools: General, survival, electronic, etc.

Vacc suits and PLSS units at various TLs.  Showing the range between a TL A 
Rescue Ball and a TL F tailored (skin) vacc suit.

Field gear, survival gear, what the well dressed business soph on Regina is 
wearing this year.

Typical layout for a Naval Corpsman assigned to an Imperial Marine Rapid 
Response Force...

etc., etc.

>Medical (and recreational) drugs properly developed. And some good
>illnesses which the drugs can be used to treat... :-)
>
>Well-detailed planets to visit.
>
>A fully-detailed starport (ground port or up port...).
>
>Shops and businesses - how often do your players say "I'm looking for a
>clothes shop or a coffee bar" and you have to make it up on the fly?
>
>Just some thoughts...
>
>Hugs and kisses,
>
>Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
In-Reply-To: <20020430184406.48777.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CCEB33B.7146.D337F2@localhost>

Paul

As far as I know THUDD died shortly after GURPS Traveller came 
out and disputes about which design system to use started.  I am 
not sure of the details because I started lurking for the most part 
since G.T. came out.  Someone else might be able to help more.  


Tim

> Back in 97, when I was last in Trav, we were working
> on THUDD.  Is THUDD still around?  If so, where is it
> happening?  In the immortal words of #5, "Need more
> input!"
> 
> Thanks for any info.
> 
> Paul
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
In-Reply-To: <20020430184406.48777.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020198030.2060.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> Back in 97, when I was last in Trav, we were working
> on THUDD.  Is THUDD still around?

THUDDD died a long time ago; it looks like it went irregular in early 1998,
lost momentum, and seems to have died entirely by 2000.

There was a ship-building contest on JTAS, but it seems to be being pretty
unreliable too.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020430.132748.-162959.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Paul

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> You do lots of volunteer data entry for the TAS and
> hope to get paid with a free membership, then you only
> need to scrape enough money together to eat.  TAS
> gives you a high passage per month, plus lodging.  Of
> course, you may be stuck somewhere undesireable for a
> month until you get your next HiPsg.

Ah yes, my word. The old perverbial "volunteer data entry for the TAS "
routine. Of course I might starve before then. NO, WAIT! I can eat at
Chaplain Bari's soup kitchen, yeah, that's the ticket.

Now if TAS will just drop me off in NZ I'll be fine, cash in my high
passage each month, no problem.

Turokan

>  --- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> > ObTrav:
> > So just how could you get off world in my case?
> > I can't work.
> > I need assistance.
> > My funds are tied to this world mandating that I
> > stick around or I don't
> > get paid.
> > 
> >  Turokan
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
Message-ID: <200204302040.FIS03034@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net  says
>As far as I know THUDD died shortly after GURPS Traveller 
>came out and disputes about which design system to use 
>started.  I am not sure of the details because I started 
>lurking for the most part since G.T. came out.  Someone else 
>might be able to help more.  
>

Maybe we should start THUDD again, but this time, have 
different rule divisions.  That way, people compete in the 
rule sets they want to compete in, rather than having 
to "eat" a single rule set.

I've noticed that everyone has their own favorite, so there's 
no sense in limiting us to one rule set.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 15:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 14:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.141101.-161815.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

TML'ers

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> You do lots of volunteer data entry for the TAS and
> hope to get paid with a free membership. 

Speaking of data entry, or writing of anything I would appreciate it If
you all would kindly try this out. It's how I actually type.

Place your right hand in front of your keyboard, fingers facing left,
palm up.
Now stand up.
Keeping your index finger against the front edge of your keyboard, hand
relaxed, begin typing ONLY using your right thumb.
The other catch - don't move your arm muscles, just shift your weight,
and type from shoulder shifting.
To use the shift key I can get my left thumb to hold it
down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My head is also limp, my chins buried in my chest.

That's it folks.

Turokan

> --- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> > ObTrav:
> > So just how could you get off world in my case?
> > I can't work.
> > I need assistance.
> > My funds are tied to this world mandating that I
> > stick around or I don't
> > get paid.
> > 
> >  Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 15:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Apr 30 14:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
In-Reply-To: <20020430.141101.-161815.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020430.141101.-161815.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <m3k7qo2891.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Do you use any accessibility tools?  I understand that most systems
come with the ability to have `sticky' keys--that is, shift acts like
a soft caps lock, or the shift on a Palm.  Tap shift once, and it's on
for one character; tap it twice, and it's on for good; tap it a third
time and it's off.  The same applies to ctrl and alt, of course.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
...It [the Mexican dictatorship] has demanded us to deliver up our arms,
which are essential for our defence, the rightful property of freemen,
and formidable only to tyrannical governments...
          --Texas Declaration of Independence

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 15:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 14:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20430.013319.6P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020316084747.B31496@freeman.little-possums.net> <20430.013319.6P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020501074423.A30174@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Any of the astronomers on the list have even a *rough* formula or
> table for the way gas giant diameter varies with mass?

Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
dwarf mass.  Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
increasing temperatures.  Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.

It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <01c301c1f096$8feb55d0$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

We've had considerable response to our request for reviewers. The 3 bribe
packages are long gone, and we have several more potential reviewers.

If you replied and I haven't been in touch yet, nudge me, will you? It's
late and I may have missed some.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 16:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 15:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Line Editor Haikus
Message-ID: <01c401c1f097$3104f160$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


New game book is out
QuikLink needs publicity
Asked the List for help

Many replies came
People wanting freebie book
Mailbox is now full




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 17:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 16:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.160031.-125169.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Robert

On 30 Apr 2002 15:20:58 -0600 ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
writes:
> Do you use any accessibility tools?

No, no ones showed me how.

>  I understand that most systems
> come with the ability to have `sticky' keys--that is, shift acts 
> like
> a soft caps lock, or the shift on a Palm.  Tap shift once, and it's 
> on
> for one character; tap it twice, and it's on for good; tap it a 
> third
> time and it's off.  The same applies to ctrl and alt, of course.

I've seen info in passing, but never looked into it in depth.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Tue Apr 30 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Line Editor Haikus
References: <01c401c1f097$3104f160$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <004301c1f09c$cd426710$9307b286@Shane>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> New game book is out
> QuikLink needs publicity
> Asked the List for help
> 
> Many replies came
> People wanting freebie book
> Mailbox is now full

Don't look at me man
Marketing plug not in vain
I bought the darn thing!
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Please take this credit card away from me
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 17:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Apr 30 16:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
In-Reply-To: <20020430.160031.-125169.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020430.160031.-125169.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <m3wuuo927f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

generalturokan@juno.com writes:

>
> > Do you use any accessibility tools?
> 
> No, no one's showed me how.

You should def. ask around.  They can really make life easier when
typing's a chore.

> I've seen info in passing, but never looked into it in depth.

In Linux, one can simply change the key definitions from Control to
SControl, Alt to SAlt, Shift to SShift.  There's also Morseall
<http://morseall.org/>, which allows one to tap out morse code on a
mouse button to control a text shell.

On Macs & Windows, there's a control panel which gives one that sort
of option.

I imagine that using a mouse is Right Out for you.  You may wish to
investigate a command-line only interface, as that is meant to be used
straight from the keyboard, and won't expect a mouse movement at an
inconvenient time.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Every man, woman, and responsible child has a natural, fundamental,
and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right
(within the limits of the Non-Aggression Principle) to obtain, own,
and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon--handgun, shotgun, rifle,
machinegun, anything--any time, anywhere, without asking anyone's
permission.                                       --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
Message-ID: <bc.25d5fa44.2a008f10@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?

Marc's evil twin Morc

LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:26:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:26:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: News
Message-ID: <10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8@aol.com>

--part1_10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:

> >Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:
> >
> >http://www.sjgames.com/ill/
> >
> >The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
> >Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
> >will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
> >product line.
> 

And, of course, Jon beat me to it.

What he said.

LKW

--part1_10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time, tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;http://www.sjgames.com/ill/<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to<BR>
&gt;Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and<BR>
&gt;will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the<BR>
&gt;product line.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
And, of course, Jon beat me to it.<BR>
<BR>
What he said.<BR>
<BR>
LKW</FONT></HTML>

--part1_10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.172641.-125169.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Robert

On 30 Apr 2002 17:49:40 -0600 ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com writes:
>  >
> > > Do you use any accessibility tools?
> > 
> > No, no one's showed me how.
> 
> You should def. ask around.  They can really make life easier when
> typing's a chore.
>  
> On Macs & Windows, there's a control panel which gives one that sort
> of option.

I use Windows, I'll need to test it.

> I imagine that using a mouse is Right Out for you.  

No, on the contrary, the mouse I use best. That is - once I get my arm up
onto the desk. Copy and paste is my best action.

Thanks,

Now where'd I leave my grav-belt?

Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F86Dv60gxapzhad2VqK00006ba3@hotmail.com>

>From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>
>>Rupert Boleyn posted:
>>On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:48, wombat@premier.net wrote:
>>>Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my
>>>designs for _Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).
>>>Note that all three of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry
>>>PAW spinal mounts; I've never been a big fan of meson guns.
>>>Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of meson
>>>guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that ecological
>>>niche.
>>
>>I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
>>really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.
>
>First of all, thank you to all of those who replied. Patrik, I'm
>going to mine your site this evening for ideas! Your "Recurrent
>Glory"-class is positively stunning.

<blushes>

>As for meson guns..yeah, I never liked 'em. Never, that is, until
>I saw Patrik's website. How about a 406 Gj Meson Spinal mount that
>can punch through a cruiser's meson screen (and armor) at Long
>distance?

To the best of my knowledge the effectiveness of Meson guns have varied 
rather dramatically between editions but I have to agree that they are only 
marginally effective in space combat under the FFS2/MCS combo (I know/care 
very little about the T4 space combat system). Some of the smaller ships I 
designed with Meson guns should probably perform better with PAWs (but then 
most of them are experiments to see how effective Meson guns are with MCS).

Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of PAWs that 
Dimashq doesn't need to try to fill that ecological niche. ;)

IMO meson guns only become somewhat effective in ship-to-ship combat with 
tunnel lengths of 500 m or more (IIRC the Recurrent Glory has a 690 m Meson 
Gun). The biggest advantage in game is that their existence forces ships to 
carry Meson screens that add another factor into the acceleration vs. armour 
vs. stealth equation. The biggest disadvantages that they have short range 
and that hit probability analysis suggest that it's harder to hit a target 
with a meson gun (a effect simulated by MCS). An evasive strategy that is 
optimal for Meson guns will however be less efficient against Lasers and 
PAWs (unless shot at from more than one direction).


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:55:14 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <200205010054.FJA02801@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>Subject: Re: [TML] A Challenge  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>No, on the contrary, the mouse I use best. That is - once I 
>get my arm up onto the desk. Copy and paste is my best 
>action.
>
I've got a Microsoft trackball that helped the arm strain go 
away (seems I get tense using a regular mouse). That, and I 
use IBM ViaVoice to type a lot.  Initially, I had to make a 
lot of corrections, but it knows me now. Not so good for web 
pages, but that's what the mouse is for.  It's very good for 
dictation in Word.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:59:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:59:08 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <F86Dv60gxapzhad2VqK00006ba3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020214606.5089.ajackson@ping>

Patrik Holmstr=F6m writes:

> To the best of my knowledge the effectiveness of Meson guns have varied=
=20
> rather dramatically between editions but I have to agree that they are on=
ly
>  marginally effective in space combat under the FFS2/MCS combo

Specifically, there's not much point to range beyond short, due to the evas=
ion
effects.  Meson guns have a bunch of interesting tactical uses because you =
can
hide behind a planet or deep in a gas giant and use a forward observer in a
fighter (yeah, that's not discussed in MCS).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:05:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:05:07 2002
Subject: [TML] reloading example
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020319202156.009eb8c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20430.171325.3s0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Mark, you have one of *everything.*
>
> One of my "win the lottery" plans is establish residency in Oregon, get the 
> proper paperwork, and have you show me where to go shopping.  :)

Well, there's always "Fairly Honest Don's Machine Gun Parlor" out in
Hillsboro. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>

From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
>>This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking 
>> >>about a X-ray laser so it needs to be at least TL13.
>
>That doesn't necessarily follow.  TL13 is where controlled and
>contained Xray weapon lasers appear, is it not?

That's why I said probably. However if we want to build a ChemDet warhead 
using the canon laser rules (or a slightly tweaked version) ChemDets will 
suck big time unless they are grav focused or use X-ray wavelengths.


>I would expect detonation lasers to appear *much* earlier; TL8 or 9.

Are you talking about NukeDets or ChemDets here?


> >Can a lasing rod (as used in NukeDets) also be used with chemicals?
>
>Almost certainly nuclear detonation lasers are nothing like chemical
>ones.  They would be based on gamma/hard Xray radiation input to begin
>with, and chemical reactions never generate such radiation.

I thought so too, nice to have it confirmed.


> > Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow
> > up) or something more powerful (that does)?
>
>The latter, I would expect.  A cartridge that doesn't blow up is
>over-engineered for this task.

Yeah, I would like self-destructing cartridges as well and since we already 
have Chemical Laser Cartridges that don't blow up there should exist a 
margin for more powerful and/or lighter self-destructing version.

The laser cartridge question is not my largest obstacle. The regular CLC has 
more than enough power to be a viable weapon for civilian/light military use 
especially considering the price tag of the alternative (NukeDets cost 1+MCr 
and a missile armed ship can easily carry three times its own cost in 
missiles). The big problem is explaining why so few beams from a NukeDet 
seems to hit the target. At 15000 km the target can only evade 0.5m/G so the 
number of hits should be more or less equal to the number of rods/focal 
arrays pointed at the target. If we assume that all the lasers fired hits we 
get the following TL13 500 kg warheads (regular CLC).

#CLC     Energy  MCS stats
16     x  40 Mj  13:14
8     x  80 Mj  14:13
4     x 160 Mj  15:12

There are some reasons (e.g. the 1D6 Hits rule from TNE/T4) to believe that 
NukeDets aren't this accurate. As they don't require a conventional beam 
pointer (whatever it is that beam pointers do) it could be argued that they 
compensate by spreading the shots over a larger area (shotgun style). 
Another source of inaccuracy could be the detonation of the nuke itself.

If a ChemDet used a regular beam pointer none of the above would apply and a 
reasonable assumption would be that all the pulses would hit. That's nice 
but unfortunately a 15'000 km beam pointer weights slightly less than 1000 
kg (mixing FFS1/2 at TL13, 50'000 km = 1333 kg, 30.000 km = 1000 kg, 5000 km 
= 948 kg, 3000 km = 500 kg). This is clearly too much for a missile and 
Bruce Macintosh argued in a off-list email that ChemDets should be able to 
use a lightweight beam pointer since NukeDets get away with something like 
that. The question then becomes how this affects the performance of the 
ChemDet.

I am leaning towards postulating a 100 kg beam pointer that causes 5/6ths of 
the laser pulses to miss when fired at "a typical target" from 15'000 km. 
This is reduced to 2/3rds due to the ChemDets shorter detonation range. With 
these assumptions we get the following TL13 500 kg (400+100kg) warheads.

Nr/CLSs  Energy  MCS stats
12     x  45 Mj  13:11
6     x  90 Mj  14:10
3     x 180 Mj  15:9


This is slightly better than the MCS ChemDet warhead (which is a handwave 
based on a somewhat legal design). There exist enough handwave room here to 
tweak things to anybodies liking. The draft I'm working on adds a factor 2 
by going to self-destructive cartridges at TL13 (4 Mj/kg) while a TL16 
self-destructive cartridge (5 Mj/kg) adds an additional factor of 2 compared 
with its TL13 cousin (this includes the "laser efficiency modifier"). Of 
course none of this is set in stone.

An aside - I tried rating the warheads for TNE but they sucked badly due to 
their low penetration ratings (I rated the 40Mj warhead as 1D6 hits at 
1/4-16).


>>Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a 
>>lot.
>>TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing
>>Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical 
>>Lasing
>>Cartridge? Double this?
>
>Theoretically possible, yes.  Practically?  I don't know.  The mass of
>a cartridge is more than just the mass of chemical compounds contained
>within it, and converting chemical energy to laser energy is usually
>far from 100% efficient.  2 MJ/kg is very good, as far as I can see.
>
>- Tim


I'm thinking more the other practical angle. If the self-destructing 
cartridge were not noticeably better than the regular cartridge we would all 
be designing reusable (why blow up a expensive missile) laser missiles with 
10-50 cartridges with a few 45'000 km range High RoF focal arrays. The best 
part is that PD fire wouldn't stand a chance at these ranges while the 
missile would still hit most targets with every shot. Hey, this almost 
sounds like a good idea. : )

Such a missile would be a bit larger that a regular missile to fit more 
cartridges, a beam pointer and extra fuel but everything should fit into 7 
to 14 m3 or so. It would be like sort of like a laser armed remote 
controlled fighters. Make them 10 dt, pack a few more weapons and some 
thruster plates for cruising and we got a Zho robotic fighter. :)


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.181756.-125169.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

John

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 20:54:48 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> >
> I've got a Microsoft trackball that helped the arm strain go 
> away (seems I get tense using a regular mouse).

Trackball won't work, nor one of those pads you move a finger on - "No
dexterity!"
My stats are 211885 .....

> That, and I use IBM ViaVoice to type a lot.  

I barely have a voice now, and it's difficult to understand, and
constantly changing.

ObTrav:
You streamlined you ships computer to access by voice command. 
You've been in a nasty bar-fight.
Your face is all swollen from the bar stool that fractured your jaw.
Sure, medical patched you up ok, but your speech is slurred by both your
wounds and Scout brew.
The ship won't open the hatch, now what?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F115LJ0HYnmTvdeLhie00006b47@hotmail.com>

Anthony Jackson wtote
>Patrik Holmstrm writes:
>>To the best of my knowledge the effectiveness of Meson guns have >>varied 
>>rather dramatically between editions but I have to agree that >>they are 
>>only  marginally effective in space combat under the >>FFS2/MCS combo
>
>Specifically, there's not much point to range beyond short, due to the 
> >evasion effects.  Meson guns have a bunch of interesting tactical uses 
> >because you can hide behind a planet or deep in a gas giant and use a 
> >forward observer in a fighter (yeah, that's not discussed in MCS).

It's not really that bad (though nearly). For example any 200 dt Trader (or 
other low acceleration ship) or a Tigress class ship will be hit by every 
shot fired by a (lightspeed) weapon at less than 10 hexes. The exact 
distance when this happends depends on acceleration, displacement and hull 
configuration but is seldom less than 5 hexes except for missiles and 
fighters. Hit probablities goes downhill pretty fast after this distance but 
medium range should be doable for many targets (less so for meson guns). 
AFAIK most editions use some kind of proximity fused Meson gun that removes 
that nasty r^(-6) term.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:34:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:34:18 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <200205010132.FJC00900@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  writes
>My stats are 211885 .....
>
If you don't mind me asking, what happened to you? I have 
that dreaded feeling it was an industrial accident (in my 
youth I used to do abstracts of depositions for industrial 
accidents - don't ask me to eat Heinz Homestyle Gravy)

>ObTrav:
>You streamlined you ships computer to access by voice 
>command. You've been in a nasty bar-fight.
>Your face is all swollen from the bar stool that fractured 
>your jaw. Sure, medical patched you up ok, but your speech 
>is slurred by both your wounds and Scout brew.
>The ship won't open the hatch, now what?
>

IMTU, you pull out the interface cable from your belt pack, 
plug it into the ship's external jack, put the other end into 
the socket in your head, and open the door.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEKACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
>shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

You should be.  My frient Luther Martin has one, and it looks sharp.  His
only complaint is that he doesn't have many places to wear it.  I think he
should just wear it to work, but it's a little too formal for his office's
dress code (he's usually wearing a loud Hawaiian shirt when I see him during
business hours).

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:43:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:43:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
>
>Considering the deal the players made in the first place, a sudden
>attack of ethics would seem to be a bit out of place.  They willingly
>lied and got paid for it.  Seems pretty bizarre that they would care
>that the politician used it for different purposes.
>
>Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
>now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?

As they say in management seminars, it's not so much a problem as an
opportunity.  Having a powerful friend on that world may be the most optimal
outcome, but other options should certainly be considered.  It's not
personal, you know.  It's just business.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:47:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:47:24 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  TML Haiku
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

A great idea
From John Kwon of TML
Haiku of the game

a queasy stomach
deeply humming up your spine 
g-carrier please land

a queasy stomach
the engineer stopped work
he is not jump sick

pleasure center burn
"you must remove that old wire"
"doctor my brain hurts"

Silver gauss pistol
Her stalking ex-husband was
Shot so many times

They have left the Hive
To shake hands and see the sights
Making jokes in sign

Please don't feed the Vargr
He is our steward and cook
Give him bad ideas

Assiniboia
Even in daytime it shines
Credo Down again

Esalin border
They are eating kubicho
I can smell it here

No slaves on Mongo
We enjoy our service here
Do not want to leave

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:55:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:55:08 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
Message-ID: <F264yp8ARf3sllNY30k00006c57@hotmail.com>

>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>

<snip of nice design>

>Weaponry
>1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750]
>(LR)
>20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
>(LR)

Personally I would replace these with laser bays since they are smaller 
(5x), lighter (2.5x), use less power (1.2x) and cost less (7.5x) (but you 
probably know all this). Yes, I know you like PAWs. :)

>6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
>15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations for 600
>crew)

Do you have a reason why you choose to carry more fuel than rations? My
designs usually do the opposite and carry one year worth of rations and
6 month of power plant fuel. My reasoning is that the powerplant fuel will 
be refilled after every jump and that military ships will seldom be operated 
at full power and thus the fuel will last longer.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Searching for filk
Message-ID: <200205010158.FJC02926@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

The song Wanderin' Star from Paint Your Wagon is perilously 
close to filk with few modifications. It almost sounds like 
the unofficial song of the Scouts.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:04:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:04:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>
References: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020501120223.A30646@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> >I would expect detonation lasers to appear *much* earlier; TL8 or 9.
> 
> Are you talking about NukeDets or ChemDets here?

Both.


> There are some reasons (e.g. the 1D6 Hits rule from TNE/T4) to
> believe that NukeDets aren't this accurate. As they don't require a
> conventional beam pointer (whatever it is that beam pointers do)

I have no idea :/

Whatever they are, it isn't something that's required for TL7 weapons.
Unless it's just a fancy term for "sensors".


> I'm thinking more the other practical angle. If the self-destructing
> cartridge were not noticeably better than the regular cartridge we
> would all be designing reusable (why blow up a expensive missile)
> laser missiles with 10-50 cartridges with a few 45'000 km range High
> RoF focal arrays.

I thought 2 MJ/kg *was* for a one-shot self-destructing device.  It's
ahead of any currently plausible reusable pulse laser technology by a
long shot.



> The best part is that PD fire wouldn't stand a chance at these
> ranges while the missile would still hit most targets with every
> shot.

What system allows a whole bunch of batteries of starship-mounted
lasers to miss a non-accelerating target at 45 Mm while the starship
itself is an easy hit?

(I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that the missile could
accelerate while still firing to an accuracy of 1 part per million)


> Such a missile would be a bit larger that a regular missile to fit
> more cartridges, a beam pointer and extra fuel but everything should
> fit into 7 to 14 m3 or so. It would be like sort of like a laser
> armed remote controlled fighters. Make them 10 dt, pack a few more
> weapons and some thruster plates for cruising and we got a Zho
> robotic fighter. :)

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that remote missile/drone warfare is the way
to go in general.  I'm guessing the only reason why Traveller has
starship-to-starship direct-fire battles is for the space-opera image.
The rules (at least GURPS Traveller) don't favour it at all.  It would
be nice to have a clear statement of intent.

(For that matter, even person-to-person gunfights don't look too
plausible at GURPS TL9 and above if you examine things closely, but
there are things you can do to tweak things back into shape to retain
the 'feel' of standard Traveller combat.  Not that I bother with
combat anymore for the most part.  By TL9 weapons and above, when it
comes to lethal combat the outcomes are that you're either unscathed
or dead.  Never wounded and valiantly fighting on, or other staples of
space opera.)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:08:17 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.190216.-125169.4.generalturokan@juno.com>

John

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:32:27 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com  writes
> >My stats are 211885 .....
> >
> If you don't mind me asking, what happened to you? 

Amyo Lateral Sclerosis [ALS] Lou Gherig's disease.

I guess you didn't get my announcement from 9-27-01

I'll send ya copy.

Right now it's time to eat and watch JAG.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
Message-ID: <200205010204.FJC03335@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I bet Tod really likes hearing "Men of Harlech". Not that 
it's a French song, nor did they sing it at Rourke's Drift 
outside of the movie.

I am a more than passable baritone, and I have been heard to 
sing the National Anthem, clearly audible at over a mile away 
without benefit of amplification.  Mind you, I was 50 feet in 
the air, and it was a quiet night. They had to wait until I 
was finished before they called me up and told me to knock it 
off.  There *is* a benefit to knowing more than the first 
verse.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:17:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:17:13 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
References: <F264yp8ARf3sllNY30k00006c57@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CCF4FB0.5EA8596F@premier.net>


"Patrik Holmstrm" wrote:
> 
> >From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> 
> <snip of nice design>

From a highly-regarded competitor in FF&S2 warship design, that's high
praise!
> 
> >Weaponry
> >1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750]
> >(LR)
> >20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
> >(LR)
> 
> Personally I would replace these with laser bays since they are smaller
> (5x), lighter (2.5x), use less power (1.2x) and cost less (7.5x) (but you
> probably know all this). Yes, I know you like PAWs. :)

OTOH, if one uses the optional D3 for laser damage in MCS (which I do),
then PAWs (with their D6) are more destructive.  And I _like_
destructive weapons.  _Especially_ destructive PAWs. ;-)

Besides, with a corporate name like AuricTech, do you _really_ think our
designers worry too much about cost (at least when designing warships)?

> 
> >6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
> >15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations for 600
> >crew)
> 
> Do you have a reason why you choose to carry more fuel than rations? My
> designs usually do the opposite and carry one year worth of rations and
> 6 month of power plant fuel. My reasoning is that the powerplant fuel will
> be refilled after every jump and that military ships will seldom be operated
> at full power and thus the fuel will last longer.

Three reasons:

1.  More leeway in the event of fuel loss due to damage.
2.  Longer operating time in the event of a misjump or other calamity
that causes the crew to retreat to the Emergency low berths (as you can
see, the design has enough Emergency low berths to carry the entire crew
at normal manning levels).
3.  The default setting on the Akins spreadsheet for fusion plant fuel
is one year.

Note: these reasons are not necessarily in order of importance. :-)

Thanks again for the feedback.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:21:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:21:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giants (was Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller)
Message-ID: <48.acc729f.2a00aad9@aol.com>

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tim@freeman.little-possums.net writes:
> Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
> pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
> dwarf mass.  Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
> increasing temperatures.  Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
> expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.
>
> It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
> 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
> fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.

Got a reference for this?

If we ever revise GT:First In, one of the things I want to fix is the way
you generate gas giant sizes. I'm not particuarly happy with the kludge
I originally came up with - for one thing, you can't really generate super-
Jovians with it.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>tim@freeman.little-possums.net writes:
<BR>&gt; Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
<BR>&gt; pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
<BR>&gt; dwarf mass. &nbsp;Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
<BR>&gt; increasing temperatures. &nbsp;Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
<BR>&gt; expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
<BR>&gt; 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
<BR>&gt; fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.
<BR>
<BR>Got a reference for this?
<BR>
<BR>If we ever revise GT:First In, one of the things I want to fix is the way
<BR>you generate gas giant sizes. I'm not particuarly happy with the kludge
<BR>I originally came up with - for one thing, you can't really generate super-
<BR>Jovians with it.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_48.acc729f.2a00aad9_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:45:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:45:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
In-Reply-To: <200205010204.FJC03335@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8F4A4BE.5908C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/30/02 7:04 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I bet Tod really likes hearing "Men of Harlech". Not that
> it's a French song, nor did they sing it at Rourke's Drift
> outside of the movie.
> 

Tod likes all martial music.  It is a sad thing that modern war rids us a
music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that pop
up now and again).  I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
beginning of the battle.  Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
gleaming in the sun, and martial music.  It stirs the blood.

Modern war is a dirty, no nonsense business with no room for ruffles and
flourishes, banners snapping in the wind, sabres gleaming and 'gloire'.

From Louis Simpson

"At Malplaquet and Waterloo
They were polite and proud,
They primed their guns with billet-doux
And, as they fired, bowed.
At Appomatox too, it seems
Some things were understood.

O the ash and the oak and the willow tree
And the green grows the grass on the infantry; "

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
Message-ID: <a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462@aol.com>

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> Tod likes all martial music.  It is a sad thing that modern war rids us a
> music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that pop
> up now and again).  I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
> beginning of the battle.  Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
> gleaming in the sun, and martial music.  It stirs the blood.

I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been writing,
involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some rather
unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there have
been a couple sequels.

The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in the
soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior speakers.
Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as they
wade into combat.

The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon"
at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-).

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Tod likes all martial music. &nbsp;It is a sad thing that modern war rids us a
<BR>&gt; music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that pop
<BR>&gt; up now and again). &nbsp;I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
<BR>&gt; beginning of the battle. &nbsp;Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
<BR>&gt; gleaming in the sun, and martial music. &nbsp;It stirs the blood.
<BR>
<BR>I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been writing,
<BR>involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some rather
<BR>unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there have
<BR>been a couple sequels.
<BR>
<BR>The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in the
<BR>soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior speakers.
<BR>Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as they
<BR>wade into combat.
<BR>
<BR>The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon"
<BR>at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-).
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
References: <a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CCF5D6A.23227877@premier.net>


JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> 
**quote**

I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been
writing, 
involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some
rather 
unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there
have 
been a couple sequels. 

The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in
the 
soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior
speakers. 
Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as
they 
wade into combat. 

The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" 
at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-). 

**end quote**

Of course, had they played "MacArthur Park" (the Richard Harris
version), there would have been mass surrenders by the hostiles [*],
followed immediately by mass arrests of US Special Forces personnel for
war crimes.... ;-)

[*] Either that, or the aliens' braincases would have exploded.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F259XPec8O1AAwl6zO600006d73@hotmail.com>

Timothy Little wrote:
>Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> > There are some reasons (e.g. the 1D6 Hits rule from TNE/T4) to
> > believe that NukeDets aren't this accurate. As they don't require a
> > conventional beam pointer (whatever it is that beam pointers do)
>
>I have no idea :/
>
>Whatever they are, it isn't something that's required for TL7 weapons.
>Unless it's just a fancy term for "sensors".

Well, FFS1 says that they "represent the integral fire control capabilities 
of the weapon". They are required for "all heavy (non-small arm) laser, 
particle accelerators and meson guns". A external sensor is still required 
to the best of my knowledge.

>I thought 2 MJ/kg *was* for a one-shot self-destructing device.  It's
>ahead of any currently plausible reusable pulse laser technology by a
>long shot.

That depends on you defination of self-destructing. The regular CLC is used 
much like a rifle cartridge and the reaction is contained in the cartridge 
itself. I'm thinking more of something that explodes spectacularly.

> > The best part is that PD fire wouldn't stand a chance at these
> > ranges while the missile would still hit most targets with every
> > shot.
>
>What system allows a whole bunch of batteries of starship-mounted
>lasers to miss a non-accelerating target at 45 Mm while the starship
>itself is an easy hit?

Assuming that the missile can manuever:
It's bigger and accelerates less? :)

Assuming that it can't:
It won't matter since an entire fleet will be waiting for the target ship to 
stop manuevering in preparation of PD fire. The fleet will then fire and hit 
with every weapon it has disposable.

>(I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that the missile could
>accelerate while still firing to an accuracy of 1 part per million)

The rules seem to disagree but I grant you that it would be something of an 
engineering problem. I think Bruce Macintosh talked about laser accuracy a 
couple of times but I can't remember if he mentioned something about 
acceleration effects.

The fire control would have knowledge of future acceleration and could 
syncronize fire with a straight burn. During such a burn the angle to the 
target wouldn't change much and you have to do that kind of burn rather 
often if you want optimal evasion. Another possible tactic would be to have 
the missile stop accelerating for 0.1 seconds (or less) while shooting. Not 
evading is after all a valid evasion tactic (unless you do it all the time 
or do it predictably).

<snip>

I agree with all the rest. I have designed fighter drones and automatic PD 
systems for battledress for this kind of war. Fighting a high tech war 
without support and gadgets must (most of the time) be like fighting modern 
day tanks with sticks and stones. On the largest flat surface you can 
imagine. In the dark. And you can't hide.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:26:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:26:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giants (was Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller)
In-Reply-To: <48.acc729f.2a00aad9@aol.com>
References: <48.acc729f.2a00aad9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020501132547.A30741@freeman.little-possums.net>

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
[I wrote:]
> > It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
> > 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
> > fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.
> 
> Got a reference for this?

Just my lecture notes at the moment, though I'm sure I can find a
suitable reference in the Uni library.  I've been meaning to go back
there for another study session soon anyway :)

Of course, these models are entirely theoretical: no diameters of real
superjovians have yet been measured to my knowledge.  A quick abstract
search confirms this as of March 2002.  I can find only two measured
diameters for verified extrasolar planets (via transit photometry),
both of sub-jovian mass.

Interestingly, one of the two appears somewhat larger than Jupiter --
1.35 times the diameter, but only about 70% of Jupiter's mass.  This
is almost certainly because it is *very* hot, orbiting just 0.045 AU
from a G0V star, and also because it has a relatively low mass so that
the pressure increase due to temperature is more able to overcome
gravity.

I would not be at all surprised if this is close to the largest planet
that will ever be found.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:33:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:33:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <200205010332.FJG00772@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

IlBhdHJpayBIb2xtc3Ry7bm27baxdW90OyB3cml0ZXMNCjxzbmlwIGFib3V0IGFjY2VsZXJh
dGlvbiBlZmZlY3RzIG9uIGxhc2VyIGJlYW0gc3RlZXJpbmcgDQphY2N1cmFjeT4NCg0KPlRo
ZSBydWxlcyBzZWVtIHRvIGRpc2FncmVlIGJ1dCBJIGdyYW50IHlvdSB0aGF0IGl0IHdvdWxk
IGJlIA0KPnNvbWV0aGluZyBvZiBhbiBlbmdpbmVlcmluZyBwcm9ibGVtLiBJIHRoaW5rIEJy
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cm9ibGVtIHNvIG11Y2ggb2YgY29tcGVuc2F0aW5nIGZvciBhY2NlbGVyYXRpb24sIA0Kd2hp
Y2ggY2FuIGJlIGtub3duIGFzIHlvdSBwb2ludGVkIG91dCAtIGl0J3MgYSBtYXR0ZXIgb2Yg
DQp2aWJyYXRpb24uICBUaGUgT1RBIHJlcG9ydCBvbiBzcGFjZSBiYXNlZCBsYXNlciBzeXN0
ZW1zIA0KaW5kaWNhdGVzIHRoYXQgdGhlIHByaW1hcnkgYmVhbSBzdGVlcmluZyBwcm9ibGVt
IGxpZXMgaW4gdGhlIA0KdmlicmF0aW9uIHByb2R1Y2VkIGJ5IHRoZSBvbmJvYXJkIGdlbmVy
YXRvci4gIEEgbWlzc2lsZSANCnVuZGVyZ29pbmcgYWNjZWxlcmF0aW9uIGlzIHJ1bm5pbmcg
YSB2ZXJ5IGhpZ2ggcG93ZXJlZCANCmVuZ2luZSAtIGl0J3MgZ29pbmcgdG8gdmlicmF0ZS4N
Cl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NClN1bmxpZ2h0IG9uIHdpbmRvd3MNCk9mZmljZSBidWlsZGlu
Z3MgYWdhaW5zdCBza3kNClN0dWNrIGluc2lkZSBhZ2Fpbg0K

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
Message-ID: <F1790dwzd44lkw8Hbql00006d85@hotmail.com>

Please forgive the somewhat lighthearted tone of the message. It must be the 
hour.

>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>"Patrik Holmstrm" wrote:
> >
> > >From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> >
> > <snip of nice design>
>
>From a highly-regarded competitor in FF&S2 warship design, that's high
>praise!

Maybe we should start the "Club for Internal Admiration"? Hmm, I think I 
recognise those initials. :)

> > >Weaponry
> > >1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 
>[1,200/750-750-750-750]
> > >(LR)
> > >20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
> > >(LR)
> >
>>Personally I would replace these with laser bays since they are >>smaller 
>>(5x), lighter (2.5x), use less power (1.2x) and cost less (7.5x) (but you 
>>probably know all this). Yes, I know you like PAWs. :)
>
>OTOH, if one uses the optional D3 for laser damage in MCS (which I do),
>then PAWs (with their D6) are more destructive.  And I _like_
>destructive weapons.  _Especially_ destructive PAWs. ;-)

Now that you remaind I remember that I also use that rule. Dang! Well we 
will then have to roughly double the size of the mount. That will cut rather 
severly into our advantages but at least we now have a average damage that 
is 0.5 higher (16+2 vs 14+3.5) than the PAW mount though the laser mount 
still lack the doubled crew casulties.

Wait now I got it! The laser mount has superior traverse! Muhhha! I wan't to 
see your 44 m PAW triumf that! :)

>>>6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
>>>15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations
> >
>>Do you have a reason why you choose to carry more fuel than rations? >>My 
>>designs usually do the opposite and carry one year worth of >>rations and 
>>6 month of power plant fuel. My reasoning is that the >>powerplant fuel 
>>will  be refilled after every jump and that military >>ships will seldom 
>>be operated at full power and thus the fuel will >>last longer.
>
>Three reasons:
>
>1.  More leeway in the event of fuel loss due to damage.
>2.  Longer operating time in the event of a misjump or other calamity
>that causes the crew to retreat to the Emergency low berths (as you can
>see, the design has enough Emergency low berths to carry the entire >crew 
>at normal manning levels).
>3.  The default setting on the Akins spreadsheet for fusion plant fuel
>is one year.
>
>Note: these reasons are not necessarily in order of importance. :-)
>
Pretty good reasons all of them.

Now it's time to crawl into my cave since the daystar is rapidly approching.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 23:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 22:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F259XPec8O1AAwl6zO600006d73@hotmail.com>
References: <F259XPec8O1AAwl6zO600006d73@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020501152126.A30999@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> Well, FFS1 says that they "represent the integral fire control capabilities 
> of the weapon". They are required for "all heavy (non-small arm) laser, 
> particle accelerators and meson guns". A external sensor is still required 
> to the best of my knowledge.

OK.  So it isn't something required for any TL7 weapon, which is why I
couldn't find anything about it :)


> That depends on you defination of self-destructing. The regular CLC
> is used much like a rifle cartridge and the reaction is contained in
> the cartridge itself. I'm thinking more of something that explodes
> spectacularly.

I don't think it would make much difference.  If it's big enough to
self-destruct with 2 MJ/kg, you're not going to get a lot more power
out of anything chemical once you add in all the other apparatus
necessary to get an ultra-high power extremely tightly collimated
laser beam out of it.


> It won't matter since an entire fleet will be waiting for the target
> ship to stop manuevering in preparation of PD fire. The fleet will
> then fire and hit with every weapon it has disposable.

If the entire enemy fleet stops maneuvering to fire at one target
ship, they are themselves open to fire from the opposing fleet :)

Besides which, a very large ship can carry stabilisation gear that a
little missile can't.


> >(I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that the missile could
> >accelerate while still firing to an accuracy of 1 part per million)
> 
> The rules seem to disagree but I grant you that it would be something of an 
> engineering problem. I think Bruce Macintosh talked about laser accuracy a 
> couple of times but I can't remember if he mentioned something about 
> acceleration effects.

"Jerk."  That's not an insult, it's a technical term :)

Specifically, the term for rate of change of acceleration.  An evading
vehicle must change acceleration direction rapidly, which means that
stabilisation has to converge on the order of tens of milliseconds for
a missile to use its acceleration ability to best advantage, against a
jerk of thousands of gees per second.


> Another possible tactic would be to have the missile stop
> accelerating for 0.1 seconds (or less) while shooting.

0.1 seconds is very short time for even short-mode vibrations to damp
out from the jerk of not accelerating anymore.  Mind you, I don't
doubt that TL12 weapon mounts and fire control could do so, but us
poor mortals certainly couldn't.

Another thought: A high-RoF missile probably won't scratch the paint
of most ships -- after all, there's a limit to how much energy you can
deliver over a combat round, and breaking it up into lots of little
pieces just means you have more chances to hit for no damage.  One
ship's laser will vaporise a missile, since there just isn't enough
volume for anywhere near the same thickness of armour that a starship
can mount.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 03:21:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:21:45 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Red Army Chorus
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHEECMCEAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAIECMCKAA.redroach@pobox.com>



I personally think that the US National anthem sucks!
1. The ONLY national anthem that talks about war.
2. A notes that only professional singers can hit on key.
3. Only the communists know the words past the first verse!

Myself and a lot of Americans prefer "America the Beautiful".
They even voted on this in Congress a few years back.

(Rant Over)

MY TURN:
Too bad I am obviously an American who prefers and values the "Star Spangled
Banner."
Maybe we should take Franklin's idea and change our national bird to the
turkey.

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:10:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:10:39 -0600
Subject: [TML] Comm check
Message-ID: <3CA7A57F.EEFD8C@mail.cswnet.com>

ping ping ping ping ping

Here we go again.

ISS Agena at the outer beacon.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:15:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:15:40 -0600
Subject: [TML] Roseberry's HG2 used space craft lot
Message-ID: <3CA7A6AC.CCAACC8B@mail.cswnet.com>

Come on down and try out some of these beauties...
[all designs use HG2. Costs are standard, no arch fees, no discounts]
[TL per Ct]


Upshore class slow shuttle
Y2-0201111-030000-00001-0  TL10-12  95dt Crew=2
            1         2    Mcr26.325 standard 
            1         2
Fuel=4.25dt EP=.95 Agile=1 Cargo=60 Passenger couches=10
Bridge included.


Terp class armored space tanker
QK-0201111-330000-00001-0   TL10-11  40dt Crew=2
            1         2    Mcr16.33 Standard
            1         2
Fuel=1 EP=.4 Agile=1 Bridge included. Tanker Fuel=20dt


Gaku N'aGak class slow modular cutter
Uses same 30dt standard modules as the regular cutter.

Gaku N'aGak class, frame section only
YY2-0203411-030000-00001-0   TL10-12  10dt
             1         2    Mcr9.05 standard  Crew=2
             1         2
Fuel=1.8 EP=.4 Agile=3

Gaku N'aGak class, frame and module section
YY2-0201111-030000-00001-0  TL10-12  40dt
             1         2    Mcr9.05 plus cost of module
             1         2    Crew=2
Fuel=1.8 EP=.4 Agile=1

Modules shown in Adventure 7.


"Cyberspeed" orbital racing speeder
QF-0606701-000000-00000-0 TL9-12  4.5dt
no weapons                Mcr5.885 std Crew=1
Fuel=1 EP=.315 Agile=6 no bridge. Mod1 computer.


Standard Speeder using HG2
VF-0106601-000000-00000-0 TL9-12  6dt
no weapons               Mcr6.52 std 
Fuel=1.08 Ep=.36 Agile=6 Crew=1 Passenger couch=1
no bridge. Mod1 computer. Cargo=.82


Plop designs historical series:  The Jetsons Speeder
NVF-0103311-000000-00000-0 TL9-12  9dt
no weapons                Mcr6.718 std Crew=1
Fuel=1 EP=.27 Agile=3 Cargo=0
1 pilot couch, 4 passenger couches.
1 jump capsule launcher, with 3 capsule ready storage.
4 jump capsules available.
Unfortunately, the designers at the Plop works haven't figured
out how to stick 9dt speeder into a briefcase. Studies continue.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:20:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:20:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Comm check
Message-ID: <200204010020.DBV00016@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
>
>ping ping ping ping ping
>
>Here we go again.
>
>ISS Agena at the outer beacon.
>

Greetings Agena!  This is Bob Marks of Bob's Duty Free Goods 
and Taxi Service!  Welcome! Welcome!  We have specials on 
clothing, liquor, and specialty foods!  Don't buy the tourist 
stuff they sell in the starport!  Nobody pays retail when 
they can buy from Bob!

We even have free coupons for a 10 percent discount on 
refined fuel!  If you have passengers on board, we can take 
them direct to their destination dirtside for only 10cr!

Act now, and we'll throw in a free hot lunch of charbroiled 
steak!

We can match vectors and be alongside in 10 minutes!  How 
about it?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:41:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jason Barnabas)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 16:41:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Real Life? Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <h2bcaugf7hmmg8npll01nedlk3cv051sqi@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1d915$efff2160$2c617043@jbathome>

JR Holmes wrote:
<snippers>
>I'm jealous.  Of course, from San Diego, I would be beyond any distant
>end of any trip you might be considering (in Wisconsin, on Lake
>Michigan).  Ah well, the joys and sorrows of living on the Central
>Coast.

Well JR, I could plan to end up on the bonny shores (I'm assuming 
they are bonny) of Lake Michigan via the Saint Lawrence Seaway.  
So, no it is not entirely out of the question.  After all if I'm 
going to sail all the way from San Diego harbor to the Chesapeake 
Bay, what's a few thousand more miles.

I believe that both Green Bay and Milwaukee are port cities.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:40:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:40:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Real Life? Intrudes
Message-ID: <200204010040.DBV00674@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Jason Barnabas" says
>
>Well JR, I could plan to end up on the bonny shores (I'm 
>assuming they are bonny) of Lake Michigan via the Saint 
>Lawrence Seaway.  
>So, no it is not entirely out of the question.  After all if 
>I'm going to sail all the way from San Diego harbor to the 
>Chesapeake Bay, what's a few thousand more miles.
>

There are a fair number of us near the Chesapeake Bay.
Yeah, as long as you're going from Regina to Sol, what's 
a few more jumps here or there.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:43:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:43:07 EST
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
Message-ID: <16b.b4fbf3e.29d9071b@aol.com>

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"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> Just finished going through what will be a rather long
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units
> in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may
> differ.
> <snip>

   I'd like a copy as well :)
  -Ken-
 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>
<BR>"John T. Kwon" wrote:
<BR>
<BR>&gt; Just finished going through what will be a rather long
<BR>&gt; document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units
<BR>&gt; in Traveller. &nbsp;Just a guide, mind you. &nbsp;Your mileage may
<BR>&gt; differ.
<BR>&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I'd like a copy as well :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR> 
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:49:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:49:20 EST
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
Message-ID: <118.f28a399.29d90890@aol.com>

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> Generating a large number of systems shows a possible anomaly in the rules
> for life generation. Approximately ten times the number of complex animals
> evolved in Earthlike conditions are evolved on icy rockballs with
> subsurface oceans. This is also true for sentinent lifeforms.

Probably because there are a lot more icy rockballs than there are
Earthlike worlds.

If you come up with an adjustment that seems right to you, let me 
know - I'm told a reprint or second edition of First In is likely at some
point, so I'm assembling notes for changes to details of the world
generation sequence.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Generating a large number of systems shows a possible anomaly in the rules
<BR>&gt; for life generation. Approximately ten times the number of complex animals
<BR>&gt; evolved in Earthlike conditions are evolved on icy rockballs with
<BR>&gt; subsurface oceans. This is also true for sentinent lifeforms.
<BR>
<BR>Probably because there are a lot more icy rockballs than there are
<BR>Earthlike worlds.
<BR>
<BR>If you come up with an adjustment that seems right to you, let me 
<BR>know - I'm told a reprint or second edition of First In is likely at some
<BR>point, so I'm assembling notes for changes to details of the world
<BR>generation sequence.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:13:22 EST
Subject: [TML] Test
Message-ID: <c1.1e6bbd30.29d90e32@aol.com>

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   Hey-Mailerdemon bounced my last message. Just testing :)
  -Ken-

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hey-Mailerdemon bounced my last message. Just testing :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:29:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:29:47 -0600
Subject: [TML] Real Life? Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <000501c1d915$efff2160$2c617043@jbathome>
References: <h2bcaugf7hmmg8npll01nedlk3cv051sqi@4ax.com> <000501c1d915$efff2160$2c617043@jbathome>
Message-ID: <5scfau8hccl722d5bgm5a6obo8hfh8eppg@4ax.com>

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 16:41:18 -0800, "Jason Barnabas"
<cyber0@prodigy.net> wrote:

>JR Holmes wrote:
><snippers>
>>I'm jealous.  Of course, from San Diego, I would be beyond any distant
>>end of any trip you might be considering (in Wisconsin, on Lake
>>Michigan).  Ah well, the joys and sorrows of living on the Central
>>Coast.
>
>Well JR, I could plan to end up on the bonny shores (I'm assuming=20
>they are bonny) of Lake Michigan via the Saint Lawrence Seaway. =20
>So, no it is not entirely out of the question.  After all if I'm=20
>going to sail all the way from San Diego harbor to the Chesapeake=20
>Bay, what's a few thousand more miles.
>
>I believe that both Green Bay and Milwaukee are port cities.

Green Bay and Milwaukee (and Duluth on Lake Superior) are deep water
ports suitable for ocean-going ships.  There are a couple of dozen
other harbors which are easily suitable for a 39 footer.  The sailing
season here is only about 6 months long, so it would become a matter
of timing.  The Chesapeake is a fair bit more temperate than the Great
Lakes can be (which isn't saying much if you know about the bad
reputation that the Chesapeake has).

As a minor benefit, and reaching back to my collegiate sailing days, I
understand that the slime which builds up on your hull while passing
through Lake Erie is closely akin to the "Go-Fast" coating that ocean
racers spend hundreds applying to their hulls.

Unfortunately, this is the last year that the annual GenCon gaming
convention will be taking place in Milwaukee (its moving to
Indianapolis), because it takes place in early August and coincided
with the Wisconsin State Fair and was close to a number of very large
summer festivals.  That would have been a good time goal to shoot for.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:37:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 17:37:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Trip time question
Message-ID: <200204010137.RAA27635@molly.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
>> Actually B is how many *hours* of burn endurance were used. Sorry I should 
>> have been more specific
>
>In that case, the formula as written is incorrect.  The delta-V should
>be doubled.  (22 mi/s per g-hour, or 35 km/s)

The real problem is that TS is using a weird definition -- what is written
as 'delta-V' is really 'average trip speed'.  If you look around, you 
discover that it assumes both acceleration and deceleration, and should
be doubled for a one-way trip.

Personally, I think that's confusing, but it is the way the rules work.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:55:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] just looking around
Message-ID: <200204010155.DBX01369@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Was over at Walt Smith's page, and he had a big essay on 
piracy in his TU, which may or may not appeal to those who 
have been involved in rolling around on the topic.

However, he made a few interesting points.  Steal a small 
craft, and even if you only get a fraction of its value, 
you've made a lot of money.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:10:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 21:10:54 EST
Subject: [TML] Navy stuff
Message-ID: <16.1cbec3b9.29d91bae@aol.com>

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   Those interested in some other notes about Spaceships, navy structure, 
assignments and operations, damage control, and the like might want to check 
out Mark Chase's Mekton Z  page at 
http://www.meta-earth.com/metal/metalrpg.html#ch2
   The information is interesting, and some quite  _easily_ liftable for a 
Traveller campaign :)
  -Ken-

   "One of his tricks of persuasion was to cut open the breast of a victim, 
pull out the still beating heart, and gnaw upon it with great relish while 
the next menu object looked on in stark terror. No wonder few withheld 
information from L'Olonais"

   Blackbeard
   AH Games

  

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Those interested in some other notes about Spaceships, navy structure, assignments and operations, damage control, and the like might want to check out Mark Chase's Mekton Z &nbsp;page at 
<BR>http://www.meta-earth.com/metal/metalrpg.html#ch2
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;The information is interesting, and some quite &nbsp;_easily_ liftable for a Traveller campaign :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;"One of his tricks of persuasion was to cut open the breast of a victim, pull out the still beating heart, and gnaw upon it with great relish while the next menu object looked on in stark terror. No wonder few withheld information from L'Olonais"
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Blackbeard
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;AH Games
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:17:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:17:15 -0600
Subject: [TML] Testing
References: <B8CB9A45.3371C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CA7C32B.74BC120@premier.net>

Hmmm.  Did you turn off StripMIME?  A couple of posts came through in
the past couple of hours that were obviously not plain text.

Not a major issue for me, but it may well be an issue for digest
subscribers.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:40:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:40:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Encumbrance
In-Reply-To: <200203311634.DBF00567@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020331183941.009fc790@mindspring.com>

At 11:34 AM 3/31/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Haven't yet seen rules I like for encumbrance.  PCCS is very
>accurate, but takes too long to calculate.
>
>A good page
>
>http://call.army.mil/products/newsltrs/01-15/01-15ch11.htm

Actually, the entire site is good for those playing military/mercenary 
campaigns.

http://call.army.mil/products/newsltrs/01-15/01-15toc.htm


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
  Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:23:02 +0930 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Presidio class armoured cruiser
In-Reply-To: <3CA5611B.8EEF4422@premier.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204011221290.12785-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Antony;

 All I can say is that your designs have been copied and will be modified
for MTU. Thank you for the work. Great things to "liberate".

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 04:19:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:19:39 -0600
Subject: [TML] CT Ship Design mailing list
References: <OF14E5A3E8.5F7821AA-ON85256B8D.00573844@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CA7DFDB.C2CABA21@pobox.com>

William Lane wrote:

> about 7 months ago i entered the "Cortez" into Hot Rod Race. the Cortez was
> a modified Scout. well before the results where posted my company laid a
> bunch of people off including me.
>
> I was wondering if the person who ran the hot rod race was a member of the
> TML and could let me know what Standing The Cortez came in. or if someone
> could forward this to him it would be appreciated.
>

The Hot Rod race took place on the CT-Starships list.  The race results were:
                 Hellbent 20 pts
                 Abrr Chatlqaf 19
                 Princess Lucky 14
                 Cortez 12
                 Renown 10

Also, another quote re the Cortez...

--- In ct-starships@y..., "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@r...> wrote:
> <snip>
> My personal favourite design has to be Cortez, any ship that can stick
> closely to the rules and still manage Jump-4, 5G  with 2 tons reserved for
> beer has to be a good design :)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 04:24:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:24:37 EST
Subject: [TML] Splat gun
Message-ID: <197.49c174e.29d93b05@aol.com>

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   Hi gang,
   After seeing stats for one of these things someplace on-line, I got to 
wondering just what exactly _IS_ an Aslan Splatgun anyhow?
  -Ken-

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi gang,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;After seeing stats for one of these things someplace on-line, I got to wondering just what exactly _IS_ an Aslan Splatgun anyhow?
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 03:54:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:24:22 +0930 (CST)
Subject: [TML] boarding bots
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331144144.02480060@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204011313420.12785-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi laning:

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, laning wrote:

> I remember reading the article at the time.  Like most non-GDW magazine
> articles that proposed additional rules for Traveller, it added something
> far more powerful than would balance with the existing game rules.

 I think it was #64. Carried a "URP". I made a few servant bots. One
cyborg PC and then sort of lost interest. As it became a way of making
ultra powerful things that either  upset the game in favour of the team or
the opposition. So I ended up doing a sort of "Dune" trip about robots.
Forget the name of the provision against such things. <Butler?>

> Of course, I'm no happier than anyone else with the GDW robot rules in Book
> 8--or the computer rules, for that matter.  But, I shouldn't criticize,
> because I'm hardly qualified to write something better.  I don't think
> Moore's Law is infinitely recursive and in fact I think it's likely to
> reach its limit while most of us are still alive, so that doesn't jibe at
> all with the hardware rules.  Software rules are more problematical to
> devise.  Locomotion and manipulators _might_ be amenable to easy
> calculation for engineers experienced in such areas but that's only for
> current-day tech, so tech levels 8 through 15 or higher are anybody's
> guess.  The power requirements and power production do seem to have been
> second-guessed very intelligently and accurately by people on this list who
> sounded qualified.

 I was not familiar with computers or robotics at that time. So I let the
entire concept wither on the vine IMTU. But as I ressurect my game. I now
need to adress the matter. Book 8 seems to be in some areas weak and  in
other complex. I need more understanding and then create for MTU.

> BTW, Lord Ronin, if you ever phoned for tech support during the last days
> of Q-Link before it was ignominiously "sunsetted" then we may have spoken
> on the phone.  Although I never had my own account, it was still one of my
> duties to provide tech support.  At least, unlike most of the other AOL
> tech reps who were tasked with the same thing, I'd actually owned a couple
> of Commodore computers in my time.  The only computers on the tech reps'
> desks were IBM-compatibles, with a healthy scattering of Macs, also.  (Not
> 6502's, I said Macs.)  I am pleased to report I had an outstanding success
> rate on my Q-Link calls.  Which is a good thing, because there was many an
> evening when I was the _only_ tech available to answer Q-Link calls.  I had
> wanted to join one of the developers to be online for chat during the final
> moments, but I was busy working instead.

 no i doubt it was you I talked to, as you still have two ears. The one I
talked to got a very falming earful of what I thought about the rape,
torture and murder of Q-Link. Not to mention the stated deltetion of the
C= files from the HD area. BTW: want a copy of the non existent <if you
belive Steve C.> 2400 front end loader? I was part of the Q-Link
preservation group. C=64 Dungeon Arcade was may area. have it all the F-3
comments and still have the 90 catalogue. Now if I can find all the inn
ladies from the geopaint area for my BBS. But I won't delve into that
topic on llist. Oh on the FWIW part laning, I only use Commodore still.
Online with one at this moment at 14.4 going to 56k this upcoming month.
See me off list if you would like to know more about the current world of
Commodore and the new Commodore system comming out shortly.

 OBTRAV: There have been alot of PC platforms in the past. IMTU they are
all C= OS based. As that is what I belive in as the best OS for the user.
Personal opinion of course. IYTU what do you use as a computer standard?
is there a platform OS standard on all computer using tech level worlds?
Does the 3I enforce a compliance of a specific computer OS platform? Or
are there multiple and semi if at all compatible OS units in your game
world?

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 06:01:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:01:28 +0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Kiev class light fleet carriers
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331105548.024beec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEGFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of laning
Sent: Sunday, 31 March 2002 11:59 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Kiev class light fleet carriers


Antony, why would Terra build a jump-1 warship?  It's more than one parsec
to Terra's nearest neighbor, IIRC.

And my prejudice against fighters/carriers is stronger for this class than
it was for the Consort.  I could see fighters used in commerce raiding as
well as commerce escort, but haven't found a use beyond that.

--Laning

The Kiev is capable of 1x jump-3 or upto 3x jump-1 or any combination. The
other thing to remember is that fighter carriers have been canon since CT.
The Kievs were also designed around the time of the First Solomani Rim war
so have been left behind somewhat by later developments.

Also in Traveller rulesystems (GT excepted, I don't know about T4, not
having that) A ships weapons can only engage one target per round regardless
of rate of fire (rate of fire just makes that target easier to hit). This
actually increases the survivability of fighters. Most of my fighter designs
still carry Nuclear Detonation missiles for a stand off capability.

From play testing I also found that in TNE at least fighters used
defensively are quite successful. Effectively giving a vessel like the Kiev
forty more laser turrets and missile launchers. Commerce raiders also tend
to be of cruiser class or less (the Azhanti High Lightnings were commonly
used for this) Against this type of vessel fighters are a threat. If not why
do the Lightnings for example carry so many light starfighters?

Anyway that is some of my thinking behind the class.

Antony



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 06:01:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:01:29 +0800
Subject: [TML] Presidio class armoured cruiser
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204011221290.12785-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEGFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Lord Ronin from
Q-Link
Sent: Monday, 1 April 2002 10:53 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Presidio class armoured cruiser


Hoi Antony;

 All I can say is that your designs have been copied and will be modified
for MTU. Thank you for the work. Great things to "liberate".

BCNU


Why thank you my lord,
Praise from the praiseworthy is praise indeed.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 06:01:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:01:30 +0800
Subject: [TML] GT Ship Conversion from TML Post
In-Reply-To: <3CA72B79.1969.B92D3@localhost>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOEGFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of shadowcat
Sent: Monday, 1 April 2002 5:30 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] GT Ship Conversion from TML Post


I give you the Breton class light cruiser, I unfortunately have forgotten
who
posted the orginal, and my apologies for the omission of the persons name

That's Ok, the original FFS1 version was posted by me. Nice conversion.
Incidently Fremantle, named after the city in Western Australia not
Freemantle.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 04:24:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:24:18 -0600
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
References: <200203310432.DAH01551@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV57xlgF6ygG1pzOKJ000112d6@hotmail.com>

I'd be grateful for a copy.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"

> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages
> so far.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 07:18:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 02:18:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  The Traveller Movie (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <20020328202400.35905.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CA105D7.EB960833@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020328175158.02bd1c70@pop.wizard.net>

At 12:24 PM 3/28/02 -0800, someone wrote:
>How about this for a plot.  Somehow Norris gets wind
>of the assassination plot and heads to warn the
>Emperor.  Unfortunately misjump occurs and the ships
>can't continue.  The only option is the Free Trader
>Beowulf.

Good stuff.  I like it.   :->

Minor suspension of disbelief problem though.  Norris' ship misjumps while 
the rest of his escort fleet doesn't.  Somehow, his personal ship isn't 
able to continue on either.  I guess the misjump inflicted damage to the 
jump drive or something.  But for Norris to choose a free trader as his 
best alternative seems implausible.  Unless the Beowulf is the _only_ ship 
in system.  And even then, he'd transfer to a faster vessel at the first 
system that had one, and there'd be plenty of chances for that.  I guess 
the Beowulf would have to be not a free trader, but something with jump-5, 
and preferably a fast maneuever drive too, to reduce days spent maneuvering 
between jumps.  This suggests a very nonstandard ship or nonstandard 
history for what was once a standard ship.  I think that's good 
though.  Make the ship a separate character in the hearts of the 
audience.  Like the 'Millenium Falcon' only much more so.


>   Norris joins the crew and they head accross
>the rift because it is a speedier trip.  Our
>adventurers get to the Real Strephon on the way
>shortly before the news of the assassination reaches
>them.  I think the scene when the Real Emp meets
>Norris and the crew could be cool.

It seems like it takes some serious handwaving to have them bump into the 
real Strephon on the way.  But, yeah, it makes for a good scene and one 
that seems desirable to keep in the script.  It also takes some serious 
handwaving for Norris to get wind of the impending plot when he lives so 
far away from Dulinor and Dulinor's power base, as well as Capital.

But you have a good thing going with taking a high noble and throwing him 
in with the crew.  A major downside of that is it will remind some people 
too much of Princess Leia or Queen Amidala.  Hmm, maybe something involving 
a Zho instead of Norris.  we have to learn through the eyes of the 
merchant's crew that the Zho are not horrible mind rapers after all, and in 
fact are nice folks who like to prevent assassinations.  The Zhodani 
government might have more pragmatic reasons for trying to prevent the 
assassination, too.  They can't know the assassination is scheduled by GDW 
to initiate the break up of the Imperium.  From where they're sitting, it's 
a choice between Dulinor on the throne or Strephon.  And if they can 
arrange for Strephon to owe them big time for saving his bacon, all the better.

Yeah, thinking about it more.  The Zhodani own most of the mind reading 
market, would have a spy network that could pick up wind of Dulinor's plot 
in advance, and then they'd decide to tip off Strephon through people who 
are guaranteed to be loyal to Strephon.  They'd also be aware of the real 
Strephon and his whereabouts.  They transmit their message through their 
usual clandestine channels (diplomatic and spy network within the 
Imperium).  A small party of Zhodani, consisting of the diplomatic courier, 
his military escort, and Zhodani psionic adepts undercover as Imperial 
citizens who are additional security for the diplomatic courier but the 
courier himself is not aware of their true nature.  He thinks they're just 
Imperial citizens headed in the same direction, in a hurry for some 
plausible-sounding reason.  They run afoul of the misjump plot 
device.  They need transport now, and it has to be _fast_.  There's the 
'Beowulf', a 60-year-old merchant, that was bought surplus from the 
Imperial Navy where it was used as a small despatch courier.  It's held 
together by it's talented and devoted crew, who pay factors all over the 
sector to line up courier jobs for them, and thus eke out a living, and get 
to travel the universe.  The Zhodani party _needs_ the 'Beowulf' and 
they're in a hurry.

But, the 'Beowulf' crew are already on a scheduled job, and one that pays, 
and it's going in the opposite direction from where the Zhodani are 
headed.  Sure, the Zhodani can offer virtually unlimited pay to the Beowulf 
as inducement to drop their current courier job in favor of taking the 
Zhodani where they want to go.  But the Beowulf's crew are predisposed to 
disliking and mistrusting the hated Zho's.  Some plot tension and character 
tensions develop.  Some local subplots have to develop also, for the Zho 
and the Impies to struggle through together, and through these actions the 
Impies learn to see the Zho in a new light.  They begin to shed their 
prejudices, but hardly all at once.  Now they're not so sure that they're 
right to be automatically suspicious of the Zhodani.

The fabulous sums dangled by the Zhodani courier tip the scales.  And, 
fortuitously, the local factor (played by Sidney Greenstreet) who the 
'Beowulf' usually does business with, and is their friend and confidante, 
let's them know another ship has arrived in system (one of their 
urgent-delivery competitors) who can be paid to finish the delivery job the 
'Beowulf' is already on.  Still some lingering reservations about Zhodani, 
but they accept the charter and the Zhodani and the 'Beowulf' crew proceed 
together.  Through many jumps, including across the Rift.

The diplomatic courier is actually a very high ranking diplomat who would 
not normally be used merely as a courier, but the significance of this 
mission dictated that he be used partly to lend credibility to his message 
and partly because he is entrusted with a full briefing on the contents of 
his message and his empowered to negotiate directly with Strephon.

Realizing that too much distance/time has been lost because of the misjump, 
the diplomat has to change destination from the planet where the real 
Strephon was sojourning, to meeting Strephon en route as he travels back to 
Capital.  At each port of call, he must contact the local Zhodani consulate 
or spy to pick up the latest news on the precise location reported for the 
real Strephon.  Some minor adventures are associated with meeting these 
local contacts, and the Beowulf crew are required for getting safely 
through these dirtside adventures.  More bonding with the Zhodani.  Their 
reservations and prejudices continue to erode but are not entirely gone 
yet.  Too many centuries of bad history, not to mention the ugly memories 
from the recent FFW.  The crew continues wearing psionic shield devices at 
all times.

The two groups continue working together and are now extremely close to the 
real Strephon.  But the crew keeps wondering why the diplomat keeps playing 
games with naming their final destination (the diplomat doesn't _know_ the 
final destination, he can only guess at the best intercept course to catch 
Strephon).  Finally, one last jump will catch Strephon's caravan.  But 
exactly which jump?  Guess wrong, and more time is lost and Strephon will 
get further away, because he is travelling at jump-6 maneuever-6, a 
combined speed that the 'Beowulf' can almost but not quite match.  (I think 
the Beowulf should be jump-6 maneuever-5 agility-5.) Guess right, and bingo 
they're in the same system as Strephon and can initiate communications and 
arrange a meeting.  The diplomat doesn't have the expertise to predict the 
right jump destination with reasonable chance of success.  He needs all the 
navigational expertise the Beowulf crew can give him.  But for that, he 
needs to tell them a lot more about the identity of the person he is 
chasing that he really wants to.  The 'Beowulf' captain tells the diplomat 
she needs a lot more info from him, he is too vague, she can't predict what 
he's asking without knowing a lot more about the party they're trying to 
catch up to.  Another hurdle to clear in building trust.  And when he does 
tell her, what do she and her crew make of a Zhodani diplomat escorted by 
two hired Zhodani killers who is desperate to catch up to Strephon but 
doesn't want anybody to know?  Suspicious, eh?  More trust-building hurdles 
to clear.  Finally, the Zhodani diplomat and the 'Beowulf's' retired 
Imperial Navy captain trust each other enough to work together. Even then, 
using all their pooled smarts and experience, it's a dice roll whether 
they've guessed the right place to jump and intercept Strephon.  They're 
now in jump space for a week, waiting, anxious.  The captain:  am I right 
to trust this Zho or are they duping me and I'm bringing an assassin to 
meet my vulnerable Emperor?  The diplomat:  these fearful, paranoid, 
suspicious, Impies.  I envy them their freedom and wildness, but how can I 
be gambling so much on the success of a perfect example (the captain) of 
just such wildness?  Is the captain intentionally misleading me?  (Still 
wearing her psi shield, or maybe just one of those rare one-in-a-million 
immunes to telepathic reading.) And if not, did the captain guess the right 
jump destination?  Tension builds.

Did I mention that the diplomat is a man and the captain a woman?  I mean, 
come on.  We can't make a movie like this without some sort of romantic 
interests! Both a young-looking forties, both played by very attractive 
actors?  And is that...sexual tension (!) underlying their many 
disagreements and negotiations during these weeks of travel and adventure?

Things happen during the week of this last jump.  But neither of them seem 
willing to publicly admit to the wild and delirious passions they shared 
during the quietest hours of this last jump, they tried to keep their 
trysts a secret, and we think they've succeeded.  Do they still refuse to 
admit to themselves even that they are falling in love (or at least serious 
lust) with someone from a foreign and looked-down-upon civilization?  To 
the captain, Zhodani equals mind raping totalitarian who doesn't care about 
individuals.  To the diplomat, Imperial equals barbaric, psychologically 
stunted and bloodthirsty individuals who run amok only slightly less than 
wild vargr do.

I'm thinking Sigourney Weaver, Renee Russo, or maybe Nicole Kidman for the 
captain.  Somebody who is an excellent actress, has sex appeal, and can 
carry off being physical and adventurous, and also a bit world weary.  The 
diplomat has to have an aristocratic British accent of course <G> and also 
be a talented enough actor to carry off being strong, independent and 
capable, but somehow project an indefinable vulnerability and need for 
protection while travelling through such "barbaric" provinces.  Best 
casting I've come up with for him so far is Hugh Jackman, who seems pretty 
good.

There should also be a couple of romantic storylines for minor characters 
in the two parties.  Perhaps the aide to the diplomat and one of the ship's 
crew.  It doesn't take them long to acknowledge their interest in each 
other.  They should be fairly uncomplicated and likable characters. and the 
audience should be sympathetic to them.  They still have to overcome the 
outside barriers to their love of conventional prejudices and their mutual 
bosses being somewhat disapproving.  The second romantic storyline should 
involve one person from each party, also.  I'd like for there to be a vargr 
in each group.  I guess that means either one of the undercover Zhodani is 
a vargr, or one of the military escorts.  Perhaps both escorts should be 
from a vargr unit that has been part of the Zhodani Consulate for centuries 
and has a long and honorable tradition of guarding diplomatic missions and 
embassies.  Alternatively, if you want to play the alien race romance angle 
for much broader laughs, one of the romantic pair can be vargr while the 
other is aslan.  The first romantic pairing should be consummated 
(off-screen, this is a G or PG movie) before the two main characters have 
their trysts.  The second, alien-race pairing should be after.

The climactic scene of the film should be final jump succeeds at arriving 
in the correct star system, and succeeds at guessing where in the star 
system would be the smartest place to intercept Emperor Strephon's 
incognito small fleet.  (Smart deductions, plus a very good dice roll from 
someone with very high Navigation skill.  :-)  There are then a few quick 
scenes where the 'Beowulf' signals the Emperor's ship, recognition codes 
are exchanged between the diplomat and a high advisor of the Emperor's, and 
we see from the bridge of our beloved 'Beowulf', over the shoulder of the 
diplomat who is standing behind the pilot and captain, the form of the 
light cruiser carrying the Emperor growing larger and larger.  Docking is 
imminent, and we get a quick cut of the Fire Control Officer aboard the 
Emperor's ship in continuous contact with the Fire Control Officers on the 
escort vessels, advising them the approaching merchant has been recognized 
as friendly but maintain targeting lock with bay and spinal mount 
weapons.  The 'Beowulf' exterior is shown, looking rather small docked 
against the frontier cruiser that carries Strephon.

Those quick scenes should serve to introduce a few characters of the 
Emperor's party who will become prominent in the sequel.  Minor reference 
to them by name might have been made very quickly earlier in the film.  The 
final scene of the film is the entire party ushered into an extremely 
impressive yet informal audience chamber, the rest of the party left near 
the entrance under very professional guard and the diplomat and aide 
escorted forward to be formally introduced to the Emperor.  We see the 
Emperor moving forward with innate grace and noble bearing, and a curious 
smile.  Be sure to look for the sequel soon in theaters everywhere.

I like to picture the characters encountering at least a dozen Imperial 
Guard in full battledress from the moment they board the ship and all the 
into the audience chamber itself.  Starting with two in battledress as they 
pass through the airlock.  Perhaps one of the earlier minor difficulties 
the 'Beowulf' crew and diplomats had to overcome involved a graphic 
demonstration for the audience's benefit of just how amazingly capable 
battle dress can be.  Forget Boba Fett in 'Star Wars' and think more like 
the 'Predator' but with military weaponry instead of hunting weaponry.

I'd like to devise more about the individual characters, and flesh out more 
of the storyline, particularly the various minor adventures besetting the 
two parties during their journey and how these adversities draw them closer 
together over time.  And yes, I know we can't cast Sidney Greenstreet as 
the factor/friend because he's dead.  :->  How about uhhhhh Oliver Platt??

I think the rival fast merchant that took over our protagonist merchant's 
delivery should make a reappearance in the second film.  The trick is going 
to be casting Dulinor and writing the scenes to show his arrogant and 
decidedly lethal plans to assassinate the Emperor but only because he 
thinks it is for the greater good.  We have to show that he loves the 
Imperium, likes and respects Strephon, but just thinks there is only one 
sophont who is the right soph for the job at this critical juncture in 
history.  He goes through some soul searching, but we TMLers already know 
the answers he comes up with.  The Dulinor scenes should show all this, but 
be very economical and not take a lot of screen time.  Dulinor should be 
played by someone very tall and an obviously very fit physical 
specimen.  Lucan...?  I'm seeing Joaquin Phoenix, who did such a great job 
in a similar role in 'Gladiator'.

That's what I have so far, folks.  Comments?

--Laning
(traveller geek code is MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 08:12:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:12:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <DAV16h3lrGS1DknvCes0001cd0f@hotmail.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?  What does canon say on =
this?

Some parameters here:  I'm not talking about hijacking a ship, nor am I =
talking about ship theft incidental to piracy.

Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved in stealing a =
starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.

It seems to me the problem can be considered as four separate issues:

1.  Identifying a likely (unoccupied) target that can be operated by a =
prize crew no larger than the size of your theft team.  Scout ships =
(which often fulfill these conditions) will be targeted for theft much =
more frequently than battlecruisers (which hardly ever do).

It seems one could accomplish this step with visual surveillance, inside =
information from the ships crew or spaceport personnel, and/or Neural =
Activity Sensors.

2.  Approaching the vessel.

This ranges from child's play (an unguarded scout grounded in a sparsely =
populated area with the sole pilot/crewmember dead or distant), to an =
indirect form of suicide (an experimental warship docked at the naval =
base.)

Presumably, accomplishing this would be well nigh impossible at an A =
starport, non-trivial at a B and your better C's, and not beyond the =
realm of consideration at lesser facilities.

3.  Entering the vessel.

Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let you in. <g> =20

How do starships determine who to admit?  Whoever holds the key?  =
Voiceprints?  Biometrics?  Passwords?  Some combination?  Given =
sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar (doubtful) or a cutting =
torch (probably)? =20

Having forced your way in what active countermeasures do you have to =
defeat?  Does the ship send combat bots?  Does the environmental system =
become hostile?  Does an anti theft program deliberately destroy the =
Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the j-drive useless?

4.  Establishing vessel control.

Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do you get the starship =
to respond to your commands?  When you plop down on the pilot's couch =
what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver drive?  =
Again, is there a key?  Biometrics?  PIN numbers?  How much trouble =
would there be in performing the starship analog of a hot-wire job?

Awaiting feedback.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com




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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?&nbsp; =
What does=20
canon say on this?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Some parameters here:&nbsp; I'm not talking about =
hijacking a=20
ship, nor am I talking about ship theft incidental to =
piracy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved =
in stealing=20
a starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It seems to me the problem can be considered as four =
separate=20
issues:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>1.&nbsp; Identifying a likely (unoccupied) target =
that can be=20
operated by a prize crew no larger than the size of your theft =
team.&nbsp; Scout=20
ships (which often fulfill these conditions)&nbsp;will be targeted for =
theft=20
much more frequently than battlecruisers (which hardly ever =
do).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It seems one could accomplish this step&nbsp;with =
visual=20
surveillance, inside information from the ships crew or spaceport =
personnel,=20
and/or Neural Activity Sensors.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>2.&nbsp; Approaching the vessel.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This ranges from child's play (an unguarded scout =
grounded in=20
a sparsely populated area with the sole pilot/crewmember dead or =
distant), to an=20
indirect form of suicide (an experimental warship docked at the naval=20
base.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Presumably, accomplishing this would be well nigh =
impossible=20
at an A starport, non-trivial at a B and your better C's, and not beyond =
the=20
realm of consideration at lesser facilities.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>3.&nbsp; Entering the vessel.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let =
you in.=20
&lt;g&gt;</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>How do starships determine who to admit?&nbsp; =
Whoever holds=20
the key?&nbsp; Voiceprints?&nbsp; Biometrics?&nbsp; Passwords?&nbsp; =
Some=20
combination?&nbsp; Given sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar=20
(doubtful) or a cutting torch (probably)?&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Having forced your way in what active =
countermeasures do you=20
have to defeat?&nbsp; Does the ship send combat bots?&nbsp; Does the=20
environmental system become hostile?&nbsp; Does an anti theft program=20
deliberately destroy the Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the =
j-drive=20
useless?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>4.&nbsp; Establishing vessel control.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do =
you get the=20
starship to respond to your commands?&nbsp; When you plop down on the =
pilot's=20
couch what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver=20
drive?&nbsp; Again, is there a key?&nbsp; Biometrics?&nbsp; PIN =
numbers?&nbsp;=20
How much trouble would there be in performing the starship analog of a =
hot-wire=20
job?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Awaiting feedback.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:texasredshift@hotmail.com">texasredshift@hotmail.com</A></=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 08:42:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:42:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204010842.AAA08687@molly.iii.com>

"Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com> writes:

>How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?  What does canon say on =
>this?

Canon says little that I know of.  Generally, I assume it's hard.

>Some parameters here:  I'm not talking about hijacking a ship, nor am I =
>talking about ship theft incidental to piracy.
>
>Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved in stealing a =
>starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.
>
>It seems to me the problem can be considered as four separate issues:
>
>1.  Identifying a likely (unoccupied) target that can be operated by a =
<snip>. Not a huge problem, unless there's something unusual going on.

>2.  Approaching the vessel.

Agree.  This is dependent on assumptions about computerization; robots 
in most versions of traveller might be smart enough to object, though
by and large they won't be permitted to shoot you outright.
>
>3.  Entering the vessel.
>
>Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let you in. <g> =20
>
>How do starships determine who to admit?  Whoever holds the key?  =
>Voiceprints?  Biometrics?  Passwords?  Some combination?  Given =
>sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar (doubtful) or a cutting =
>torch (probably)? =20

For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't get
in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
do the ship much good, however.

>Having forced your way in what active countermeasures do you have to =
>defeat?  Does the ship send combat bots?  Does the environmental system =
>become hostile?  Does an anti theft program deliberately destroy the =
>Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the j-drive useless?

Most likely, none of the above; the ship yells for help and goes into 
lockdown mode.  Paranoid owners could easily equip the ship with kill
switches in a few critical concealed junctions.

>4.  Establishing vessel control.
>
>Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do you get the starship =
>to respond to your commands?  When you plop down on the pilot's couch =
>what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver drive?  =
>Again, is there a key?  Biometrics?  PIN numbers?  How much trouble =
>would there be in performing the starship analog of a hot-wire job?

For higher tech ships, most likely you're defeating biometrics, plus a
rather smart robot brain.  Unless you can steal startup information from
the owner, most likely you're talking hours or days of work, particularly
if kill switches have been installed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 08:59:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 03:59:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>
>For higher tech ships, most likely you're defeating 
>biometrics, plus a rather smart robot brain.  Unless you can 
>steal startup information from the owner, most likely you're 
>talking hours or days of work, particularly if kill switches 
>have been installed.
>
I have the feeling that an Imperial ability to commandeer 
your ship is a factor here.  Currently, the penalty for 
failing to obey orders when boarded has a variety of 
punishments, ranging from large fines, to loss of your 
license, loss of your ship (which may belong to your 
employer, not you), and probable jail time.  Even if they 
don't find anything else wrong.

There are probably locks of some sort.  But imagine if the 
crew was disabled by a malfunctioning life support system, 
and headed on a hazardous course.  Under your system, no 
rescue crew would be able to board normally, and if they did, 
they couldn't fly the ship.

I would bet that some locking system exists.  But probably 
not one that would then become more defensive if the locks 
were bypassed.  The locks are probably designed to defeat the 
majority of criminals, not those with sophisticated equipment 
(like the Imperial Navy).  It's probably coded into the 
ship's software by law -- even if they don't have the 
password or keys to get in, the Navy can override your ship's 
computer and seize control using simple, but sophisticated 
equipment when they board.

There might even be an interface that works through your 
transponder's software.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 09:03:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (P-O Bergstedt)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 11:03:17 +0200
Subject: [TML] Burn Heretic, Burn!
Message-ID: <3CA82255.1CACE976@berka.com>

After 102 votes, the Heresy IMTU poll is now closed.

In TATU (The Average Traveller Universe),
almost everyone is a heretic.

The result was: 
he++   23.53%
he+    51.96%
he     15.69%
he-     7.84%
he--    0.98%

Compare this result with previous poll:
http://zho.berka.com/polls.html

(The new poll is about Drop Tanks.)

  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN
/ * A o \_____/       \_____
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:24:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:24:11 +0800
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8A5CB.29530.200B430@localhost>

Hi all!

On 1 Apr 2002, at 3:59, John T. Kwon wrote:

> There are probably locks of some sort.  But imagine if the 
> crew was disabled by a malfunctioning life support system, 
> and headed on a hazardous course.  Under your system, no 
> rescue crew would be able to board normally, and if they did, 
> they couldn't fly the ship.
> 

Personally, I don't think that rescue ships would be all that likely 
anyway.  Salvage ships, maybe, but not rescue ships.

BUT, even if there were rescue ships, I bet they would have similar 
equipment to salvage ships (I'm thinking the beginning of /Aliens/ 
here) -- super-heavy-duty laser cutters, universal airlock adapters, 
the whole works.  If there really /is/ an emergency, and the rescue 
crew is authorized to enter the ship, they're not going to want to 
wait for the proper codes from Central Command and then for the 
locks to recognize them.  Parallel: In a car wreck, the paramedics 
don't try to find the right key, they just get out the Jaws of Life.  

In other words, I think that gaining access to a ship by pretending 
to be a legit authority would be quite hard, but blasting your way in, 
if you could first disable the crew, would be relatively easy.  I guess 
it depends on your final purpose...?

-- Rachel

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:51:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:51:48 PST
Subject: [TML] Splat gun
In-Reply-To: <197.49c174e.29d93b05@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20401.025148.6F4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>    Hi gang,
>    After seeing stats for one of these things someplace on-line, I got to 
> wondering just what exactly _IS_ an Aslan Splatgun anyhow?

Probably derived from the Centran splat gun. Find a copy of the
recently expanded re-issue of Christopher Anvil's "Pandora's Planet"
for an interesting story, and some examples of why Scouts have
nightmares. 


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:35:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:35:18 PST
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20020401084436.C5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Well, you actually *could* use EM fields to steer a high temp plasma
>> "plume" outside of the ship and retreive the cooled ions. <g>
>
> Not if you're looking to be stealthy!
>
> There is also the problem of pumping waste heat up to enormous
> temperatures, requiring something like 99.99% efficiency every step of
> the way.

Actually, if you are using a fusion reactor that involves magnetically
confined plasma, 8000 K is a quite *low* temp for the "exhaust" end of
the cycle. <g>


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:58:03 PST
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020401084647.D5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20401.025803.2u9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> On the other hand, a straight line course to the jump limit in a
>> direction at right angles to the line joining the start and end points
>> of the jump, and then accelerating at an angle to get the right vector
>> might be simpler. More time, but only two vectors to figure.
>
> Yes, it's simpler.  That's the course that ships lacking a navigator
> might take :)

Navigators prefer to minimize heading changes for some strange reason.
<g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:53:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:53:53 PST
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020401083839.B5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20401.025353.0o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> I'd say +/- 100 km/s is probably considered "good enough" most of
>> the time.
>
> For the destination system, yes.  Of course, if there is any leeway at
> all, freighter captains are probably going to arrive as "hot" as they
> can within those limits.  Time is money, and arriving with a 50 km/s
> inward vector instead of 0 saves about 3 hours.
>
> 3 hours doesn't necessarily sound like much out of a week's trip, but
> it does save about 5 Cr per dton of cargo and (probably more
> importantly) increases the chance of getting into port before a
> competitor does.

The problem is that if you were aiming for a point "ahead" of the
planet, and came out of jump late, your vector will be *away* from the
planet because you are now "behind" it. 

That is, your vector is pointed at where the planet was when you
expected to emerge from jump, which is behind where it is when you
*actually* come out of jump.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:03:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (P-O Bergstedt)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:03:29 +0200
Subject: [TML] GRUPS Traveller Reviews
Message-ID: <3CA85AA1.175A2553@berka.com>

Read some reviews of some new
GRUPS Traveller products at URL:
http://zho.berka.com/review.html

  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN
/ * A o \_____/       \_____
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:10:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 05:10:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] re: Real Life Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020330213337.009e8010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020401131058.13191.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Did somebody watch Jaws when they were not quite old
enough?  That would probably do it. :)

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I can't stand to be in water where I can't see the
> bottom.  I'm a basket 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:23:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 07:23:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] F15D Scorpion Recon Fighter TL 11
Message-ID: <3CA80B0E.6302.4EB743@localhost>

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A Recon fighter design for the Consort and Kiev, Thanks for the Inspiration Anthony



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--Message-Boundary-11333--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:30:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:30:54 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Playing around even more with the First In design sequence (hey, what else
am I supposed to do on a day like this?), I decided to calculate how the
number of places where complex animals (sentinent or non-sentinent) have
evolved are distributed over various world types.

I made a large (400.000 systems) data set, using a modifier of -11 to the
roll (in step 15) for icy rockballs with subsurface oceans. This is what I
came up with:

Subgiant :  1%
Nitrogen : 37%
Ammonia  : 20%
Desert   : 10%
Icy sub. : 11%
Earthlike: 21%

(ie 21% of all complex animals in the dataset evolved under Earthlike
conditions)

These numbers clearly do not match the OTU, since the most common forms of
advanced life there are evolved under Earthlike conditions (including all
of the major races).

I would be happy to try various modifications and see how they affect the
statistics, but I need something to aim for. How should advanced lifeforms
be distributed over the various world types?

Jon, all you need to do is to give me a set of percentages (as above), and
I'll happily tweak the modifiers to match those percentages.

A suggestion for a future reprint of GT: First In would be to include two
sets of modifiers for step 15: One that produces Traveller-like results,
and one that seems more in line with current science. To keep consistency
with the rest of the design sequence, the more realistic set would
probably be the default, while the Traveller-like set could be introduced
in a sidebar.

I think I may now call myself "rockhead"...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:40:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:40:59 +0200
Subject: [TML] Slightly OT: Transhuman space
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020330131738.009ec080@mindspring.com>
References: <20020330204047.4b56a9ad.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020330131738.009ec080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020401154059.1a5d3a2a.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Sleep when you're dead.  I haven't been able to determine if Warehouse
23 
> will deliver to the afterlife yet.  Damn fine book, and you can see why
i 
> want to adapt parts of it to Traveller.

I have now skimmed most of the book. Careful studies will have to wait
until I have properly studied what I really should study...  ;-)

I think I'll use this setting more or less as-is in order to introduce
some of my players to the joy of hard SF. If I tone down the most advanced
technologies a bit, things would be quite easy for newcomers to grasp.

Starting the game in 2041 would do the trick, focusing on the exposure of
the Ares conspiracy for starters, then more or less slowly (a few years at
a time) advance the campaign. This would allow all the developments to
come into focus, allowing exposure on every one of them.

Then, just for fun, I might throw in jump drive invention and the
encounter at Barnard's Star...  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 12:08:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:08:25 +0200
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <118.f28a399.29d90890@aol.com>
References: <118.f28a399.29d90890@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020401140825.473e1a87.jenry023@student.liu.se>

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> Probably because there are a lot more icy rockballs than there are
> Earthlike worlds.

Yes, absolutely. Also, icy rockballs are more likely to exist in older
star systems (around class M stars for instance), which increases the
complexity of native life.

Since canon doesn't have two thirds of all sentinent lifeforms living
under such conditions, the results are still strange to me.

These are my estimated probabilities of complex animal life (sentinent or
otherwise) on various world types:

Earthlike: 77%
Icy w/ subsurface: 46%
Nitrogen: 26%
Ammonia: 15%
Desert: 7%
Subgiant: 7%

If you want to tweak these numbers, what you need to do is to add
modifiers to the dice roll in step 15 of the design sequence.

Note: Since the design sequence is relatively complex, the exact numbers
should be taken with a grain of salt. In order to get better numbers, I
need to generate larger quantities of solar systems. I'll be happy to this
if you want better numbers.

> If you come up with an adjustment that seems right to you, let me 
> know - I'm told a reprint or second edition of First In is likely at
some
> point, so I'm assembling notes for changes to details of the world
> generation sequence.

Adding the following to Step 15 should do it:

"-X for icy rockballs with subsurface oceans"

where X is a number depending on the effect you desire.

X=0   Ten times more common than sentinence under Eartlike conditions
X=4   About five to six times more common
X=6   About three times more common
X=8   About 1.5 times more common
X=10  About 1.5 times LESS common (ie 0.67 times as common)
X=11  About 2.5 times LESS common (ie 0.4 times as common)

Note: The numbers above were relatively quickly generated, and are only to
be loosely trusted.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 12:12:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:12:23 +0200
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Timothy Little wrote:
<snip>
> Can a low-power organism afford power-hungry brain matter of the type
> you would expect for sentience?  If you're looking for an excuse, this
> should do.

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable explanation, thanks.  ;-)

Actually, the main reason I dislike the results is that they don't give
normal science-fiction settings. In a universe where the ideal habitat for
most sentinent races is an icy rockball, various classic SF stereotypes
don't fit in. In fact, in Traveller, most races are evolved under Eartlike
conditions, so the other numbers are also strange in that regard.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 14:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:13:17 -0500
Subject: [TML] 2 tons of beer and 4th place 8) (was CT Ship Design)
Message-ID: <OFCD639861.BF4D0240-ON85256B8E.004C0CE0@pheaa.org>







<snip>
>> about 7 months ago i entered the "Cortez" into Hot Rod Race. the Cortez
was
>> a modified Scout. well before the results where posted my company laid a
>> bunch of people off including me.
>>
</snip>
>>

>The Hot Rod race took place on the CT-Starships list.  The race results
were:
>                 Hellbent 20 pts
>                 Abrr Chatlqaf 19
>                 Princess Lucky 14
>                 Cortez 12
>                 Renown 10

WOO HOO! 4th place 8) i was so sure John and I would come in last. Not bad.
So you know Cortez is the scout ship of one of my NPC's Maria Vasquez. She
is a hot pilot and Johns char is a hot Engineer. between the two of them
nothing they can not do 8)

>Also, another quote re the Cortez...
--- In ct-starships@y..., "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@r...> wrote:
>> <snip>
>> My personal favourite design has to be Cortez, any ship that can stick
>> closely to the rules and still manage Jump-4, 5G  with 2 tons reserved
for
>> beer has to be a good design :)
WOO HOO!
I love it. if i can find a way to use this as my sig to the TML with out
spaming the rest of work with it ill do it 8) Besides you never work on a
hot rod with out beer 8)

Bill Lane

"My personal favourite design has to be Cortez, any ship that can stick
closely to the rules and still manage Jump-4, 5G  with 2 tons reserved for
beer has to be a good design :)" Jeff Greenly


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 14:32:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 09:32:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] City Class Frigate
Message-ID: <3CA86F98.CFB1CEB2@mindspring.com>

Be the first in your subsector to have a real Imperial Naval Warship
named after your city! Imagine the fun and hijinks when 75 sailors and
Marines drop into your daughters favorite club with 3 months of
accumulated pay. Send the name of your city, system and subsector to
Admiral Clarice X. Roman mailto:admiralroman@hotmail.com c/o the 100th
IN Fleet at Glisten, along with 0.02 Crimp.
Only the first twentyfour (24) cities to reply will have ships actually
named after them. The 0.02 Crimp fee is non-refundable. The Glisten
Naval Shipyard is not responsible for lost or delayed X-mail.

The keel for the original City Class Frigate "City of Son Son Solay" was
laid down in 1102 at the Bilstein Yards at Glisten/Glisten. A single
Squad Drop Tube allows insertion of up to 20 individuals, although
doctrine dictates that decoy capsules will be used to fill out a normal
15 man squad. Retrieval gigs are used as interface craft in combat
operations with the Armed launches performing non combat roles. 59 tons
of cargo allow extended patrols without resupply. The Secondary plant
powers the weapons and provides for an agility of two (2), unless the
beam Lasers are double fired, in which case the agility is one (1). The
City Class Frigate is most often seen in a task group of several ships
when the fleet is not massed for battle. Three squadrons serve with the
100th Fleet at Glisten. Ships are named for cities in the Spinward
Marches.

Craft ID:  City Class Frigate, TL 15, 1280.282 Mcr, Quantity discount
1152.254 MCr

 Hull:        1800/4500, Disp=2000, Config=5SL(Sphere), Armour=49G (3),
Loaded=23403.17, Unloaded=21652.58

 Power:    Primary 67/134, Fusion=18,000 Mw, Duration=720hrs/30 days,
Scoops, Purifiers(24 hours whole tank)
                Secondary 40/80, Fusion=10,800 Mw, Duration=72hrs/3
days,
                ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=1280hrs/53 days
 Loco:      90/180, Jump=4, 198/396 Maneuver=4G, Avionics-15 190kph,
Agility=0/2

 Comm:    Radio=System x2, Laser=System x2

 Sensors:  A-EMS (FrOb) x 2, Hi-Dnst-F (1km) x 2 , P-EMS (IntStlr) x 2 ,
Neutrino-E (10 Kw)  x 2
                Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=R  POP=R  PES=S  PEP=R

 Off:         20 Hardpoints, 20 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Bays:     100 ton Missile Bay-15 x1
                        Turrets:  Triple Laser-13     x 6 in 3 battery
                                      Triple Sand-10      x 4 in 4
battery
                        Missile magazine: HE=30 b/r, Nuclear=4 b/r
                         Total=1700 missiles. 1 b/r=50 missiles
                         Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Laser     5    -    -
                                           3
                             Missile   -   A    -
                                               1
                             Sand      4    -    -
                                           4

 Def:        Def DM= +7/9, Optimized Nuclear Damper-15 x1

 Control:  Computer=Model 7/fib w/ Circuit protection x 3,
Panels=Holographic Linked x 1823,  Large holo x 1,
               HUD holo x 30

 Accom:  Officers=14 Crew= 61 ( Bridge=4 Engineering=5 Gunners=26
Flight=14 Troops=14 Command=10 Steward=2)
               Small Staterooms=10, Bunks=70, Squad Drop Tube=1,
Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
               inertial comp, Airlocks x6

 Subcraft:  Retrieval gig x 2 (20 tons, Crew 3, TL 15), Armed Launch x 2
(20 tons, Crew 2, TL 15)

 Other:      Cargo=797.3 Kl/59.1 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=13619
Kl/1009 tons, ObjSize=Large
                One jump requires 6750 KL/500 tons of fuel


Author: Alan Spik

Canon notices: The Squad Drop tube is non canon.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
A man needs a mistress if only to break the monogamy
                                     -Unknown



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:07:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:07:36 +0100
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> A suggestion for a future reprint of GT: First In would be to include two
> sets of modifiers for step 15: One that produces Traveller-like results,
> and one that seems more in line with current science. To keep consistency
> with the rest of the design sequence, the more realistic set would
> probably be the default, while the Traveller-like set could be introduced
> in a sidebar.

This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might be.
Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in the
game universe are - IMO - dubious.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:14:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:14:56 GMT
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
Message-ID: <E16s3WK-0001Qf-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

I would like to see the document and give any comments if you please.

Beth
> Just finished going through what will be a rather long=20
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units=20
> in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may=20
> differ.
>=20
> But..  I need more input.  I've just moved a current day=20
> document a fair number of years into the future (out to TL10,=20
> so far), and I would like to take it a bit further, say TL12.
>=20
> I am interested in anyone's input concerning what might be=20
> standard operating procedure (instructions to individual=20
> soldiers, teams, and platoons).  Some of the detail I have is=20
> down to the items to carry.
>=20
> I am especially interested in what might be SOP in regards to=20
> weapons, employment of specific weapons (such as, "always use=20
> the plasma gun to break contact").
>=20
> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing=20
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages=20
> so far.
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:28:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:28:16 GMT
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
Message-ID: <E16s3jE-0001h7-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

Any chance of seeing these?

Beth

> I'd be interested to see this...
>=20
> In days past I used to write such manuals for a live-role-playing game=20
> based on 25th century space marines. These included a medical manual, EOD=
=20
> procedures and even the Uniform Code of Military Justice (a guaranteed=20
> cure for insommnia!).
>=20
> Hugs and kisses,
>=20
> Mexal,
>=20
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:49:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 07:49:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Real Life Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <20020401131058.13191.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020330213337.009e8010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401074834.009ecec0@mindspring.com>

At 05:10 AM 4/1/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Did somebody watch Jaws when they were not quite old
>enough?  That would probably do it. :)

No, I saw Jaws and went to the beach the next day.  In Santa Cruz, which is 
one of the biggest areas for Great Whites in the world.  I think sharks are 
tres cool.  I don't know what triggered this, it just *happened.*


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:12:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 08:12:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] re: Real Life Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401074834.009ecec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020401161227.27322.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

Well, after I saw Jaws, the deep end of a cloudy
swimming pool was almost too much.  :)

I can remember going to the beach with my parents as a
boy.  We would rent a catamaran.  On the Mississippi
coast they put posts in where the water gets over 4-5
feet deep at high tide.  I would panic and cry when my
parents wanted to go "past the posts" on the cat. 
Now, mind you, the deepest part of this chanel (in the
area we were) is about 13-15 feet at high tide.  And
the sharks are rarely if ever found between the beach
and the islands.

I think I am OK with the water now, but occasionally I
will still have a bit of anxiety.

ObTrav: I can imagine there are some who have panic
attacks on their first trip into space and even more
with their first trip into Jump.  Put one of these
NPC's on the Char's ship and a few minutes from the
Jump point he freaks out.  He will pay for the return,
but the other passengers don't want to waste the time.


Paul
--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 05:10 AM 4/1/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >Did somebody watch Jaws when they were not quite
> old
> >enough?  That would probably do it. :)
> 
> No, I saw Jaws and went to the beach the next day. 
> In Santa Cruz, which is 
> one of the biggest areas for Great Whites in the
> world.  I think sharks are 
> tres cool.  I don't know what triggered this, it
> just *happened.*


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:23:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:23:17 -0500
Subject: [TML] I must be a gearhead...
Message-ID: <200204011623.DDB00400@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was reading the FAS site, and they have this diatribe 
against low-yield earth penetrating nukes.  They say there's 
no way to build a weapon that would penetrate that deeply and 
still contain the burst.  Well, they put a link to the 
equations on the page, so I looked up the lowest yield of 
Davy Crockett, and the penetration of the GBU-28 (concrete 20 
feet, earth 100 feet), and it looks like I only need 60 feet 
of penetration.

So, if I wanted to kill a bunker, just put the bomb into the 
ground just short of the bunker and he's bunkmates with about 
4 kilotons of nuclear explosion.  A little venting from the 
entry path, but the retarc holds the rest in.

Sounds like a good missile for Traveller, eh?

Well, the person I'm arguing with at FAS says it isn't a very 
useful weapon.  Which brings me to another question, if 
you're opposed to nuclear weapons, why use a technical 
argument?  It would be better to stick to a moral/ethical 
objection, because if you give an engineer/gearhead enough 
money and time, virtually anything can be made to work.

Especially nuclear weapons and earth penetrators.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:46:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:46:56 +0100
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
References: <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>

> Actually, the main reason I dislike the results is that they don't give
> normal science-fiction settings. In a universe where the ideal habitat for
> most sentinent races is an icy rockball, various classic SF stereotypes
> don't fit in. In fact, in Traveller, most races are evolved under Eartlike
> conditions, so the other numbers are also strange in that regard.

I don't think that the presence of complex lifeforms in the oceans of an
Iceplanet, 10km+ under the surface, is likely to noticeably going to affect
the Traveller universe. It's not as if you are going to actually meet any of
them on a day to day basis.

Of course all the Major races evolved on Earthlike worlds... Its had to
develop a spacefaring civilisation then there is a kilometres thick ice
sheet between you and the stars (not that you'd even know they existed...)

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:51:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:51:51 -0500
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
Message-ID: <200204011651.DDB04154@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I like to have robots, but there's a certain tedium to Book 
8.  So far, I've resorted to just "saying" that a robot is a 
certain way.  I don't really like the Star Wars robots, but 
there is a certain edge to the robots as presented in AI 
(where they are "nearly" like us, but still imperfect).

How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:56:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:56:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] does that make me an apostate?
Message-ID: <200204011656.DDB04760@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

As I've gotten older, I've just gotten to doing some 
equipment by "it's about this long, about this heavy, etc.."

I've done the same thing with NPCs.

Sometimes FFS drives me nuts. 

I seem to be able to write about some things better if I just 
say things are "just so".

After all, can anyone out there take any of the robot design 
sequences and come up with Gigolo Joe?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:15:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:15:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017681340.6838.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
> 
> Actually, if you are using a fusion reactor that involves magnetically
> confined plasma, 8000 K is a quite *low* temp for the "exhaust" end of
> the cycle. <g>.

The problem is waste heat from on-board systems, not direct inefficiencies of
power production.  For example, life support produces heat equal to its power
consumption, at a normal temperature of around 300K.

Of course, the big power consumption of a ship is for drives and weapons, both
of which will have unknown (but lower) heat output.  Biggest problem is
weapons, which have somewhat canon efficiencies, that are rather low.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:29:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:29:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017682194.5758.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> I have the feeling that an Imperial ability to commandeer 
> your ship is a factor here.  Currently, the penalty for 
> failing to obey orders when boarded has a variety of 
> punishments, ranging from large fines, to loss of your 
> license, loss of your ship (which may belong to your 
> employer, not you), and probable jail time.  Even if they 
> don't find anything else wrong.

Huh?  How is this relevant?
> 
> There are probably locks of some sort.  But imagine if the 
> crew was disabled by a malfunctioning life support system, 
> and headed on a hazardous course.  Under your system, no 
> rescue crew would be able to board normally, and if they did, 
> they couldn't fly the ship.

First of all, locks designed to be used in port are presumably already disabled
after you've taken off.  Secondly, most rescue/patrol craft will be able to
deal with a ship with impaired drives anyway, just push it into a more sensible
orbit.
> 
> I would bet that some locking system exists.  But probably 
> not one that would then become more defensive if the locks 
> were bypassed.

It depends on where you plan on landing.  Free traders who land on insecure
worlds probably have pretty extensive security, bulk cargo carriers who never
leave the mains probably have rather limited security.

> The locks are probably designed to defeat the 
> majority of criminals, not those with sophisticated equipment 
> (like the Imperial Navy).  It's probably coded into the 
> ship's software by law -- even if they don't have the 
> password or keys to get in, the Navy can override your ship's 
> computer and seize control using simple, but sophisticated 
> equipment when they board.

Doubtful.  The IN can seize control via the simple, but sophisticated equipment
known as guns.
> 
> There might even be an interface that works through your 
> transponder's software.

Even less likely.  Information like that can be stolen, and if so, is vastly
more useful to terrorists and criminals than it could ever be to the Navy. 
Again, the Navy can seize control through the exotic technique of 'superior
firepower'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:33:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 12:33:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>

MJD said:
>This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
>First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might be.
>Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in the
>game universe are - IMO - dubious.

I take a much less dour outlook than MJD.  I haven't read it, but so many 
people keep telling me how great 'First In' is that I think it was 
absolutely a worthwhile book and intend to either buy a reprint/second 
edition or get the original from Traveller Trader at Downport.com.  Sounds 
like the future edition will be updated with Mr. Rydholm's suggestions.

Traveller books have been in need of various "fixing" since at least the 
first edition of Book 5 - High Guard.  If GDW had decided not to fix that 
with a second edition, we'd be worse off.  I think that if there's any 
lesson to be learned from these instances, it's that you should always try 
to do more playtesting, analysis, debugging, copy editing, and editing 
before releasing a product.  Imperium Games being the poster child for that 
need.

Thanks Jen, for doing a very useful and interesting exercise with the 
distribution of 'First In' world gen results.  That sound you weren't 
hearing was hard drives saving the info you posted.  And thanks to the 
author of 'First In' for seeking constructive criticism and incorporating 
it into your work.  It's bemusing that your response to the criticism was 
so mature and professional, when so many of the most famous game authors of 
other games would have been defensive and even combative if placed in your 
shoes.  I know they would, because I've seen them placed in your 
shoes.  From its start, Traveller seems to involve a better class of 
writers.  (We'll leave certain obvious exceptions out of that statement.  :-)

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:37:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:37:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] I just found the psionics institute
Message-ID: <200204011737.DDD02290@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.remoteviewing.com/

The company is named Psi-Tech.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:41:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 12:41:33 EST
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>

> This is what happens when people decide to "fix" 
> Traveller. First In does not produce Traveller 
> worlds - however realistic it might be. Design 
> systems that do not allow you to create what already 
> exists in the game universe are - IMO - dubious.

It may surprise you to learn that I entirely agree
with you.

First In had two main design goals: realism and support
for Classic Traveller world generation.

Unfortunately, the further I went the more I discovered
that the two were completely incompatible. CT worldgen
(including the extended system in Book 6) simply breaks
the laws of physics. Repeatedly. In ways that are very
hard to gloss over.

My response was to make "realistic" the default setting,
and include a number of notes demonstrating how to go
about something more Classic in style if that was to
your taste. In retrospect that was probably the wrong
strategy. At the time I wasn't sure what the biggest
part of the audience would be - long-time Traveller
players or newcomers. Clearly, I guessed wrong.

If First In goes to a second edition, I think the world
design sequence will default to something much more
like Book 6 worldgen, with "realism notes" allowing the
referee to flesh things out or substitute more realistic
steps to taste. (About the only thing that I would "fix"
in the default sequence would be the formula for world
surface temperature in Book 6, which is not only wrong,
but wrong in such a way that it actually makes Book 6
much harder to use.)

I suspect that would make First In considerably easier
for long-time Traveller fans to use in their established
Traveller universes - while still allowing folks who
roll their own to be as realistic as they choose.

---
Jon F. Zeigler
JFZeigler@aol.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:45:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:45:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020316125548.A20449@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Mar 16, 2002 12:55:48 PM
Message-ID: <200204011745.g31Hji001663@localhost.uia.net>

As I've mentioned before, I've been toying w/ the idea of
inertial suppression as a means of fast accelleration in an
sf-rpg I'm *slowly* putting together w/ the help of some
friends. However, there's some conflict over how to achieve
this (I can email two articles which hint at the scientific
premise to anyone who's interested). There's also the problem
of unintended consequences. Since inertial suppression also
exists in Traveller (so that ships can accellerate at 6G
w/o squashing their crews), it might be a good idea to
consider these consequences for a bit.

I wrote in an earlier post that onboard a ship where inertia
was being supressed:
> one crewmember shoving another would be like a
> feather shoving a feather. They would feel exactly the same thing
> and would react with their environment in exactly the same way,
> because apparent mass in reduced for the entire environment,
> including both of them.

Tim countered:
> So long as the forces are also reduced, no problem.  e.g. Suppose a
> person has their mass reduced by a factor of 1000.  Of course, such
> force ultimately comes from chemical energies.  But then you have to
> worry about activation energies of internal chemical processes
> necessary to life.  OK, so handwave them to near-zero as well.  So all
> chemical bonds must be 1000 times weaker to match the mass reduction.
> Furthermore, the charge on the electron and proton must be shifted
> downward by the same factor of 1000, or atoms are no longer stable at
> their normal size.  Likewise the strength of the strong nuclear force
> must be downshifted.
> 
> So, what does this mean for sunlight impinging upon the spacecraft?
> Each visible photon from the sun now vastly exceeds the binding energy
> of atoms in the hull, and behaves very much like an intense x-ray
> source capable of vaporizing any material.
> 
> Now, the energies of photons emitted *inside* the ship are 1000 times
> lower due to lower atomic transition energies, and hence have
> wavelengths 1000 times longer.  This plays absolute hell with all
> sorts of physical processes, so you'd better lower Planck's constant
> by a factor of 1000 while you're at it to fix this up.

Basically, if I read him right, what he appears to be saying is that
if you lower inertia in a given space by 99%, people in that area will
have much more strength than they're used to having, because the
chemical reactions going on in their bodies which generate energy
will still be generating as much energy, but for a much smaller
apparent mass, meaning that they'll be able to perform extrodinary
feats (and quite possibly hurt themselves), and that the only way
around this is to downscale everything else, which generates a
very strange and inconsistent reality.

What do other people think about this argument?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:45:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:45:14 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <00d001c1d9a5$0cff6560$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> I take a much less dour outlook than MJD.

I didn't mean to sound *that* negative! It's just that part of the canon
problem with Traveller is the endless series of canon-fixes that keep
appearing, giving the canonistas something to cannonade one another about.
Each fix seems to create more problems than it solves!

>
> Traveller books have been in need of various "fixing" since at least the
> first edition of Book 5 - High Guard.  If GDW had decided not to fix that
> with a second edition, we'd be worse off.  I think that if there's any
> lesson to be learned from these instances, it's that you should always try
> to do more playtesting, analysis, debugging, copy editing, and editing
> before releasing a product.  Imperium Games being the poster child for
that
> need.

Oh yes! Can't argue there. Hence the T20 delay...

>
> Thanks Jen, for doing a very useful and interesting exercise with the
> distribution of 'First In' world gen results.  That sound you weren't
> hearing was hard drives saving the info you posted.  And thanks to the
> author of 'First In' for seeking constructive criticism and incorporating
> it into your work.  It's bemusing that your response to the criticism was
> so mature and professional, when so many of the most famous game authors
of
> other games would have been defensive and even combative if placed in your
> shoes.  I know they would, because I've seen them placed in your
> shoes.  From its start, Traveller seems to involve a better class of
> writers.  (We'll leave certain obvious exceptions out of that statement.
:-)
>

Like whom?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:49:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:49:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
Message-ID: <200204011749.DDD03964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
effects when you modify Planck's constant.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:51:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:51:18 +0100
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00e301c1d9a5$e66a4540$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>>
> If First In goes to a second edition, I think the world
> design sequence will default to something much more
> like Book 6 worldgen, with "realism notes" allowing the
> referee to flesh things out or substitute more realistic
> steps to taste. (About the only thing that I would "fix"
> in the default sequence would be the formula for world
> surface temperature in Book 6, which is not only wrong,
> but wrong in such a way that it actually makes Book 6
> much harder to use.)
>
> I suspect that would make First In considerably easier
> for long-time Traveller fans to use in their established
> Traveller universes - while still allowing folks who
> roll their own to be as realistic as they choose.

Can't argue with any of this. I want realism in worldgeneration (I'm still
an engineer by mindset) but I also want compatibility with existing
unrealism. Is that unreasonable or what?? Call me hard to please if you
will... But anyway, I wouldn't worry about what I said too much. I like
First In overall...
MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:19:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 10:19:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] I just found the psionics institute
References: <200204011737.DDD02290@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8A4BE.6B18B1F0@attbi.com>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> http://www.remoteviewing.com/
> 
> The company is named Psi-Tech.

"Found?", Major Ed Dames And Psi Tech are major guests on the 
Art Bell Show. "Sides Psi Tech claims "anyone can do remote
viewing", and as we know the Psi roll is for PCs only....

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:23:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:23:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017685386.1051.ajackson@ping>

JFZeigler@aol.com writes:

> First In had two main design goals: realism and support
> for Classic Traveller world generation.
> 
> Unfortunately, the further I went the more I discovered
> that the two were completely incompatible. CT worldgen
> (including the extended system in Book 6) simply breaks
> the laws of physics. Repeatedly. In ways that are very
> hard to gloss over.

With the exception of small worlds with breathable atmospheres, what's so bad
about CT worlds?  All you need to do to produce traveller-like worlds is have a
system that produces around a hundred worlds per hex, and then picks the
lifelike one ;)

I actually put together something more or less like this, a while back; I
figured out based on the general world generator the probable distribution of
certain characteristics for earthlike worlds, and thus you can simply directly
roll up the 1% of worlds that are interesting.  You'd need to add rules for
generating any non-earthlike worlds (say, 50% chance of an earthlike world, 50%
chance for a non-earthlike middle-zone terrestrial world), but that's not too
hard.

http://maps.grandsurvey.com/hero/worlds.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:42:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:42:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] Comm check
Message-ID: <20020401.104247.-84283.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:10:39 -0600 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
> ping ping ping ping ping
> 
> Here we go again.
> 
> ISS Agena at the outer beacon.

Welcome Agena, good to see you again.
This is the IS Virgin Isle (5,000 dton luxury resort vessel), resounding
with two pings

<ping, ping>

Agena, perhaps this visit you'll  swing by for a visit.
I'm 90 degrees starboard, parked just outside marker two, range 2,000 kl.

Don't forget, our luxurious suites, casino, Jacuzzi's, health club,
exotic clubs, glorious dining, and we mustn't forget Andrea's Place. All
here waiting for you the weary traveller.


.--.   ...       .----   .----   -....   ---...   ----.       ..      
.--   ..   .-..   .-..       .--   .-   .-..   -.-       -...   .   ..-. 
 ---   .-.   .       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..       ..  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   .-   -.   -..       ---   ..-.       -
  ....   .       .-..   ..   ...-   ..   -.   --.   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:45:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:45:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV16h3lrGS1DknvCes0001cd0f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>

Bill Scheets aka Tex asks how hard is it to steal a grounded or docked 
starship IYTU.

My results vary.  In my first Traveller game, the entire small group 
decided they needed to boost planet and do it right away.  Confident that 
Laning's RPG would be just as fast and loose as everyone else's in our 
gaming club, they hopped the starport fencing and began strolling toward 
their nearby scout ship that was under guard while they were being 
investigated for certain previous actions.

Only to be confronted by a second and a third fence.  Sheer luck dictated 
that no guards were being attentive to their security cams and no patrols 
happened by.  But you'd think the sight of three fences, razor wire, and 
guard towers would tip them off that this was going to be a nontrivial 
task.  Aha! they say, only some fences and a guard tower, This will be 
easy.  Laning groans and looks at them, shaking his head.  Misreading these 
signs from the referee, they are even further emboldened.

At the airlock to the scout, I decide the best thing is to have the guard 
doing sentry duty aboard the ship should come out to talk to them, and give 
them a chance to talk their out of this.  Or at least talk their into 
reducing into a minor misdemeanor.  As soon as the door begins opening they 
all shoot him.

This was an early session of my game, and I really wanted to attract the 
players to return for more sessions in the future by making it fun for 
them.  Big, big mistake.  I figured the best thing was just let them take 
off, escape orbit, jump out, and assume the life of fugitives.  Well, if 
you let your players bully you once, they're only going to run even more 
amok in the future.  That game did not last long.  In other Traveller 
gaming, my universe has included all the ultratechnological, ultraparanoid, 
doublecheck and doublesafeguards that owners and insurers could think of 
against starships being damaged or stolen.  Just as you'd expect for 
something worth hundreds of millions of credits.

If that same party tried that same stunt again, I'd have the guards at the 
fence shoot them with tranq and they'd wake up in jail.

The example I gave was for a starship they already "owned" (technically, 
the retired scout was in the reserves and was responsible for the ship as 
property of the Imperial Scout Service).  There would be voice and keyboard 
commands at the airlock exterior, interior, engineering, and bridge 
hatchways.  Voiceprint and thumbprint verification required.  Piloting and 
engineering controls would have had the same requirements again.  An 
already-authorized and verified person on the interior could override the 
authorization process at the airlock so that routine embarkation and 
disembarkation of passengers and crew would not be cumbersome.  If set the 
shipboard security system is set to higher states of alert, then more than 
one person is required to get past authorization checkpoints, and/or more 
secret security codes must be used.  A ship belonging to the ISS in that 
situation would have been handled by the local legal authorities requesting 
the ISS help them.  The ISS would have had the pilot's normal security 
programs temporarily suspended and inaccessible, and replaced them with 
their own.  They have tools and overrides of their own for just this sort 
of situation.

If the guard who was aboard the ship had wanted to talk to the PCs when 
they reached his airlock, he would have just activated an intercom and 
spoken to them from the bridge, while waiting for the starport's SWAT team 
to arrive.  If the PCs had brought weapons or explosives capable of 
breaching the hull of the ship and gaining access, there would be automatic 
security programs would have taken over to incapacitate the 
boarders.  Including, lighting, temperature controls, random and extreme 
variations in the artificial gravity grid (from weightless state to 
negative one gee to positive one gee then back to negative one gee, etc.), 
locking down all interior and exterior hatches, and even evacuating air 
from different spaces.  Each individual grav plate is separately 
controlled, and there are preprogrammed routines for turning off all grav 
plates in a corridor except one which is turned to maximum, and sequencing 
which plate is turned to maximum so as to pull someone in the corridor to 
one end or the other of it.  With sufficiently high-powered grav plates, 
someone can be thrown into an airlock, for instance.

Insurance companies and mortgage companies insist upon certain security 
precautions for ships, and these must be thoroughly inspected during annual 
maintenance.  Most security systems can be controlled by anyone who knows a 
username and password, and their are heirarchical levels of security.  For 
instance, passengers can set a few security options for their own cabins, 
crew can set security options on low berths, etc. and the captain can 
override those settings and even lock out those individual users, and the 
owner can override the captain.  I rely on simple password and username 
because they are fast and only require either spoken or typed input from 
personnel.  Personnel who might be depending for their lives on getting 
fast access to security and controlling it.  There are also many closed 
circuit, neural activitiy sensors, and other sensors used to determine 
whether hatches are open or shut, bulkheads or hull is breached, and so 
on.  Security console(s) located on the bridge.

If the 'Alien' from the movie boarded my ship, I'd be able to pull all the 
crew to the bridge or main engineering control station, open the rest of 
the ship to vacuum, and read various sensors to know the precise location 
of the alien.  Hiding in ductwork in the ceiling would not make a 
significant difference.  If unable to throw the alien into open space by 
playing games with accelerating/decelerating the ship, gravity controls and 
air pressure, then a complete set of vacc suits for crew is kept in the 
ship's locker, accessible only from the bridge, as are weapons.  Subsequent 
events to be determined by the referee.  :->

A ship with maneuver-1 would typically only have internal artificial 
gravity of one gee.  This would be sufficient to deal with most unwanted 
boarders, even if only the ship's automated security routines are triggered 
and there is no crew aboard.  But it wouldn't be much deterrent to the 
'Alien'.  Ships with maneuver-6 would have internal gravity to match, and 
be able to hurl an unwanted boarder around from positive six gees to 
negative six gees.

If thieves manage to take control of the ship enough to lift off from 
planet, they'll still have to deal with starport and orbital traffic 
control.  This will include knowing what identifying call sign they are 
assigned, filing a flight plan, and getting clearances.  A docked ship will 
also have its security system linked to the starport, and if the security 
is triggered at any point, the starport security will immediately be 
alerted.  The thief will still have to somehow evade starport, COACC, and 
Imperial facilities, in most systems.  Think satellites, missiles, deep 
meson guns, and SDBs.

Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no 
scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the 
fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world 
in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL 13 
COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much less 
likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:58:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:58:21 EST
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <12d.f1855a6.29da07cd@aol.com>

I've been following the debate over the "First In" design sequence with 
interest. Part of the "problem" comes, I suspect, from an assumption that any 
world can develop a complex ecosystem.

This is unlikely since the complexity of the ecosystem is likely to be 
related to the available food sources at the bottom of the food chain. These 
will be severely limited on an Ice ball, even an old one. Hence the easy way 
round the problem is to cap the positive modifiers available for non-ocean 
worlds. I'd suggest +6 is a suitable number, altough I'm not an expert on 
First In so other numbres might be more suitable. 

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:13:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:13:40 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <F198zoDtLvggeHVTugl000061ac@hotmail.com>

>Can't argue with any of this. I want realism in worldgeneration (I'm >still 
>an engineer by mindset) but I also want compatibility with >existing 
>unrealism. Is that unreasonable or what??

Not really. In programing it's called being bug compatible...

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Johnny)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:14:52 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #365
References: <20020331161119.260AC279E7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c1d9b9$e469ca40$6501a8c0@yucca.net>

On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 23:32:40 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> Just finished going through what will be a rather long 
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units 
> in Traveller.  
> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing 
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages 
> so far.

I'm a lurker, but I'd be willing to reveiw it too. gamersvault@yucca.net 

- Johnny


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:29:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:29:32 -0700
Subject: [TML] GRUPS Traveller Reviews
References: <3CA85AA1.175A2553@berka.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8C32C.7020903@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

P-O Bergstedt wrote:
> Read some reviews of some new
> GRUPS Traveller products at URL:
> http://zho.berka.com/review.html

Aren't all grups reviews supposed to start 'Bonk bonk onna head!' ?? ;-)

> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:56:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:56:47 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <00d001c1d9a5$0cff6560$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>

MJD quotes and then asks:
> >From its start, Traveller seems to involve a better class of
> > writers.  (We'll leave certain obvious exceptions out of that statement.
>:-)
> >
>
>Like whom?

I mostly had the aforementioned Imperium Games in mind.  :-<

Thanks for setting me straight on your "level of dourness".  And I really 
loved your little exposition about "canonistas" and "canonades".  Keep up 
the good writing.  :->

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:57:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:57:58 -0700
Subject: [TML] room clearing
References: <200203312207.DBP01462@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8C9D6.9000605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> The only problem I have with the new room clearing technique 
> is that if people are expecting you, then all they need is a 
> long burst fire (belt fed) to keep you out of the room.
> 
> The new technique involves a team of 4 flowing into the room 
> and moving left or right as they flow in and occupy corners 
> of the room by flowing along the walls.
> 
> Might make an interesting scenario to game out using ACQ.
> 
> If the people flowing into the room have more actions per 
> combat round than the people occupying the room, it might 
> work. 
> 
> The use of grenades is now an exception in room clearing.  I 
> do remember throwing a simulator into a closet in MOUT 
> training, and being declared a casualty.  Maybe they have 
> something there.

I wonder how this compares, to, say, standard SWAT protocol for the 
same. They make extensive use of flashbangs (Presumably the 'stun 
grenade' mentioned in the link.

Presumably they are less likely to encounter return fire than soldiers 
clearing a room in a battle, but there's also the rather tricky (and 
now, all too common) mingling of non-combatants and combatants in 
today's battles.

Mis-calculate where enemy fire is coming from in a large building, and 
you could burst into the room next door, filled with refugees instead of 
bad guys.

All I can say is I DON'T want to be the poor sucker taking that #1 position.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:07:05 -0700
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <3CA8CBF9.3080002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Robert Houghton wrote:

> Actully I once saw a Catalina Flying Boat someone had refitted as a 
> mobile home winnebago style...thought this was as close to perfect as 
> you could get...if you could afford it...prolly only a little bit more 
> expensive as living on a boat and getting away for the weekend would be 
> a lot easier.

One reason that if I were to get filthy rich enough to afford it, I 
would get my own airplane: A C-130 outfitted as a flying RV.

They can land just about anywhere, even on unimproved runways, have a 
long range, parts are readily available, they're damn near 
indestructible, and there's a LOT of room.

I'm picturing two decks: a living deck and a garage deck, where you park 
your car/boat/atv's, hell you could carry along an ultralight asa 
'dingy' ;-)...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:22:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:22:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012122.DDL00281@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
>Subject: Re: [TML] room clearing  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>All I can say is I DON'T want to be the poor sucker taking 
that #1 position.
>

The more I think about it, the more I think it relies on 
having four people who are all well-practiced.  If you can 
all pour through the door before anyone inside can really 
react, it might work.  

Door charge set by #4 man blows door 
#1 man moves in, keeping back to the wall, moving to far 
right corner
#2 man buttonhooks to left near corner
#3 man right to right near corner
#4 straight left to far corner

Short bursts at any targets. Enter room with rifle shouldered.

The rapid pace is what is supposed to work here. Might be 
different in zero-g.

If you're slow, however, or unfamiliar, or get mixed up, 
you're going to get shredded.  I would bet that even an 
experienced team should practice this drill if they hope to 
pull it off.  For boarding, I would bet that the team might 
even do a drill on a stateroom or airlock on their own ship 
prior to boarding your ship.  Plus, they would call up 
deckplans and study them.

The other thing they would have going for them if they don't 
throw grenades (which are indiscriminate) is that they can 
enter multiple ingress points on the ship, with a lower rate 
of fratricide.  They can use the portable hull breaching/pier 
demolition charge to get into the ship.  Let's say two four 
man teams at each entry point, three entry points on a 400-
ton ship.  That's 24 men pouring into the ship without going 
through airlocks.

Looks like throwing grenades is for bunkers and for breaking 
contact.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:24:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:24:26 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <002401c1d9c3$ac6b2e40$6e9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >Like whom?
>
> I mostly had the aforementioned Imperium Games in mind.  :-<

Aha. My own pet hate is Imperium Games' editorial system, which actually
insterted spelling mistakes into my work! Spellchecker allowed to run
without supervision, I guess. Some of the writing was good. And some of it
set off the depressurisation alarms, it sucked so bad.

>
> Thanks for setting me straight on your "level of dourness".  And I really
> loved your little exposition about "canonistas" and "canonades".  Keep up
> the good writing.  :->
>

We aim to please... or is that shoot to kill?

Guess I'm just on a bit of a hair-trigger about all the people wanting me/us
to "fix" this or that about the Traveller universe, TNE, or GURPS Trav. Fix
it enough times and it'll be something completely different to what you
started with. Like my computer...

Regards

MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:40:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:40 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <memo.163716@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3CA8C9D6.9000605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Greetings dear hearts.

It's about 10 years since I was taught this... no, more, it was 1987...

The British Army method is: -

2-man entry team with 'mousehole' charge, blows a hole in outside wall of 
building (we don't come in the front door).

Someone chucks a grenade in, closely followed by a 2nd 2-man team 
who charge in through the hole, shooting.

Inside, working in two 2-man teams, you alternate between doing the 
grenade chucking and the charging in.

Of course, this method is only used if you don't care about the survival 
of anyone inside, or indeed much of the house itself!

The alternate method used for hostage rescue makes use of flash-bangs 
rather than frags, and shooting only occurs when a target has been 
positively identified.

Everybody, at least if you're infantry, learns the first, explosive 
method. The other one takes a lot of practice to get right...

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:44:04 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <3CA8CBF9.3080002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com>
 <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>

Living on an airplane would not be fun.  All that loud buzzing.  And the 
bad air.  Yuck.

My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.

I like to throw in people living out the Traveller version of this dream 
wandering from planet to planet, living on their converted merchant.  The 
more oft-encountered version of people living an imitation of this dream is 
the crew of a merchant that is family, or like a family together.  They 
still need to hustle for the credits to pay off the bank, keep the ship 
fuelled and maintained, etc.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:48:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:48:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

(Megan Robertson)  says
>Subject: Re: [TML] room clearing  
>
>The British Army method is: -
>
>2-man entry team with 'mousehole' charge, blows a hole in 
>outside wall of building (we don't come in the front door).
>
>Someone chucks a grenade in, closely followed by a 2nd 2-man 
>team who charge in through the hole, shooting.
>
>Inside, working in two 2-man teams, you alternate between 
>doing the grenade chucking and the charging in.
>

Yes, that's very similar to what was SOP just prior to the 
last technique.  What you describe above is what is known as 
Battle Drill #6.

Evidently there are problems with frags, and with two men 
trying to go in simultaneously.  There was a determination 
that two men are too few to handle things in a room if even 
one person is left alive after the grenade.  Three is now the 
minimum, and four is considered ideal.

And no frags!
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:52:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:52:37 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <000001c1d9c7$899aafe0$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>

Warren Buffett didn't seem to mind...

Matthew W. Helton


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of laning
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 15:44
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)

Living on an airplane would not be fun.  All that loud buzzing.  And the

bad air.  Yuck.

My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.

I like to throw in people living out the Traveller version of this dream

wandering from planet to planet, living on their converted merchant.
The 
more oft-encountered version of people living an imitation of this dream
is 
the crew of a merchant that is family, or like a family together.  They 
still need to hustle for the credits to pay off the bank, keep the ship 
fuelled and maintained, etc.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:52:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:52:59 +1000
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020401084436.C5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020402075259.B9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, if you are using a fusion reactor that involves
> magnetically confined plasma, 8000 K is a quite *low* temp for the
> "exhaust" end of the cycle. <g>

Yeah -- I wasn't actually counting the reactor as a direct source of
waste heat, since it has to be at least 99.99% efficient to provide
sufficiently high-quality power for pumping the *rest* of the waste
heat.

The problem comes with all the other ship's systems, the ones that
*use* the power provided by the reactor.  Obviously in stealth mode
you aren't thrusting or using weapons, but there's still environmental
support, sensors, control systems, LHyd cryo maintenance, and no doubt
hundreds of little things.  All of these would produce very low-grade
heat; probably at or near 300K.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:55:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:55:59 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <001f01c1d9c8$14f2af20$629193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> 
> My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
> twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.
> 
>

I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air force.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:08:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:08:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012122.DDL00281@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164502.02811320@pop.wizard.net>

Grenades are still for room clearing.  You just have to be judicious about 
using up your entire supply before you use up rooms that need to be cleared.

You also, as the link pointed out, have to be careful about not using 
powerful grenades in structures that will collapse.

And, of course you have to be careful to not clear a room that happens to 
include your own guys, or be in a room being cleared by your own guys.

No matter what specific drill you work out, speed and shock are still what 
you need to concentrate on using.  And judgment, heh.  The company 
commander's recommended room clearing drill seems effective regardless of 
its other attributes for three reasons.

(1) He gets a lot of people through the door in an extremely short 
time.  (Speed)
(2) He has a lot of people in the room all at once, each with automatic 
weapon as well as other fighting ability.  (Shock)
(3) The room clearing team has done a lot of practice and rehearsal.  (That 
makes any system work better.)

One other thing I'd like to note.  His drill assumes that you have the 
hallway(s) completely secured already.  As I recall, in European operations 
in WW2, things were often moving too quickly to have that luxury.  Or there 
weren't enough troops for it.

It all depends on the nature of the enemy and the nature of the 
terrain.  If the enemy is Nazi soldiers and the terrain is abandoned 
buildings constructed with strong materials and thick walls, then the "old 
battle drill" might work better.  If the enemy is militia and possibly has 
civilians nearby and the terrain is flimsily constructed buildings that 
sometimes have trouble with high winds, then his new battle drill might be 
better.

If I'm stuck defending a building that is being cleared by an enemy that 
has the superiority of force that the company commander seems to be 
implicitly assuming, then I would choose to withdraw from the building and 
pick a fight at a better time and place.  So yeah, his battle drill will 
succeed quite nicely at securing every room in the building.

If I'm clearing rooms with TL 12+ troops, then I think I'd rely a lot on 
neural activity sensors and advanced night vision that can see IR images 
through walls, depending on wall thickness.  My doctrine would be to have 
some assault troops with lots of personal armor protection do the room by 
room part, after less heavily armored troops secure the perimeter of the 
building or at least part of the perimeter.  I'd also try to use tranq gas 
or riot gas.  IIRC, US troops in Viet Nam found that CS was very handy for 
clearing rooms without increasing the number of civilian casualties even 
higher than it was already climbing.  If there was very little chance of 
civilians in the building, then I'd go with stun or frag grenades, 
depending on the structure.  Or maybe just lob some white phosphorous RAM 
grenades in from the street and shoot anyone who flees the burning building 
as it collapses.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:05:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:05:32 +1000
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20401.025353.0o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020401083839.B5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20401.025353.0o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> The problem is that if you were aiming for a point "ahead" of the
> planet, and came out of jump late, your vector will be *away* from the
> planet because you are now "behind" it. 

Oh, no!  Here we go with the discussion about which frame of reference
the jump emergence point follows, and the dynamics of moving 100D
limits :(

IMTU, jump emergence point is stationary with respect to the ship's
vector on jump entry.  Hence if the ship arrives late with an
inward-bound velocity vector, it will precipitate out on the planet's
100D limit.  This is even standard practice IMTU.


As far as I can see, there are three main contenders for how the jump
exit point moves:

1) Stationary with respect to the ship's entry vector.  This is the
one I use.  (However, it is not stationary in the relativistic sense,
just in a Galilean sense based on jumpspace)

2) Stationary wrt an absolute "jumpspace" frame of reference.  In
general, this will be moving at least a hundred kilometres per second
relative to most stars, and hence plotting an exit position is only
possible along a track a few million kilometres long due to time
variation in jump.  This seems to be the one you are assuming, but
contradicts the canonical accuracy of jump plotting so I discard it.

3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:11:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:11:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20020402075259.B9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017699082.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> The problem comes with all the other ship's systems, the ones that
> *use* the power provided by the reactor.  Obviously in stealth mode
> you aren't thrusting or using weapons, but there's still environmental
> support, sensors, control systems, LHyd cryo maintenance, and no doubt
> hundreds of little things.  All of these would produce very low-grade
> heat; probably at or near 300K.

Of course, rules notwithstanding, there's no real reason to assume that a ship
that's stealthy when idle is also stealthy when accelerating.  I suspect that
secondary systems (everything but active sensors, weapons, and drives) don't
have a routine power consumption of more than around .1 kW/dton, which means a
100 dton ship (for a sphere, 7 meter radius, cross-section 150 m^2 or so)
receives more sunlight than the amount of waste heat it needs to go with (by a
factor of about 20), which is sufficient to let it basically pump all of its
waste heat away in a very narrow angle.

The tricky part here is that you'll need a cryogenically cooled hull...plus
really really optimistic solar converters. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:12:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:12:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020401221258.43908.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com>

--0-1646151845-1017699178=:43005
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


 >> And no frags!  & 4 man teams

What about using stun grenades (flash/bangs?)  Are those useful at all?



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send greetings for Easter,  Passover
--0-1646151845-1017699178=:43005
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<P>&nbsp;&gt;&gt; And no frags!&nbsp; &amp; 4 man teams<BR><BR>What about using stun grenades (flash/bangs?)&nbsp; Are those useful at all?</P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br>
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--0-1646151845-1017699178=:43005--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:13:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:13:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> 3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
> planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.

This one has several things to recommend it, in particular the fact that it
cripples some of the simplest methods of relativistic bombardment.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:18:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:18:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip long evaluation about situation, etc.>

And the Army sums all of that up in "always consider METT-T 
when making decisions".  

The scale I'm thinking about is the typical Traveller party.  
They don't have enough bodies to do it right, on the 
average.  So they'll be throwing grenades.  But the soldiers 
who are fighting against a party might just rush in like this.

I'm not sure that you could move that quickly under zero-g 
conditions.

I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run 
on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship 
from stem to stern.  Arguably, orders are going to tell a 
military unit to use the least level of violence necessary to 
take your ship, but if you successfully resisted one boarding 
attempt, and they wanted the ship, they could just give you 
all the "treatment" and board after everyone dies of 
radiation.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:20:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:20:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] does that make me an apostate?
In-Reply-To: <20020401200104.BCEA627A48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sA9y-0003Dx-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

> As I've gotten older, I've just gotten to doing some 
> equipment by "it's about this long, about this heavy, etc.."
> 
> I've done the same thing with NPCs.
> 
> Sometimes FFS drives me nuts. 

Agreed.  Any design system you need a spreadsheet before is too 
complicated for any RPG I play.
 
> I seem to be able to write about some things better if I just 
> say things are "just so".

The only danger to consider is unintended consequences (ie PC 
being able to use a common device as a game-breaker), and 
design sequences don't help much with that.
 
> After all, can anyone out there take any of the robot design 
> sequences and come up with Gigolo Joe?

Book 8 isn't bad.  AB101 (also featured in the various Traveller's 
Digest adventures) isn't all that different from Gigolo Joe.  GJ is 
basically a TL15 pseudo-biological robot with the most advanced 
robot brain possible at that TL.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:21:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:21:48 +1000
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020402082148.D9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> These numbers clearly do not match the OTU, since the most common forms of
> advanced life there are evolved under Earthlike conditions (including all
> of the major races).

True, but a number of the major races actually evolved on *one* world,
and were moved later :)

It seems the Ancients preferred species who live under Earthlike
conditions, for some reason.  That would certainly skew the results.
Remember, the Traveller universe has been subject to at least one
major bout of technological tampering.

The other problem is that even if a sentient race evolved in the dark
depths of a subsurface ocean of an icy world, who would know?  Even if
hundreds of them are discovered, what are their chances of having
meaningful interaction with other races?  I mean, they live buried
under kilometres of ice; not a place many explorers are going to go.

They also probably require thousands of atmospheres of pressure for
survival.  i.e. Passenger fares will be *very* expensive.

That's without the problems of a race evolving sentience under
conditions of very low energy.  They have to live *on* something,
after all.  Even computers need power.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:23:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:23:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012223.DDN00369@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Justin Bunnell asks
>
>What about using stun grenades (flash/bangs?)  Are those 
>useful at all?
>
Flashbangs might be useful depending on the situation.  
People in sealed suits are not going to be affected very 
much.  Probably don't work well in vacuum.

But unsuited people in atmosphere in a confined space like a 
ship's stateroom, ideal.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:25:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:25:51 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
Message-ID: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"MJ Dougherty" says
>
>I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my 
>own air force.
>

Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)

You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles, 
but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up 
with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right 
positions in government for the die hards, it might work.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:30:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:30:45 +1000
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020402083045.E9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Timothy Little writes:
> > 3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
> > planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.

> This one has several things to recommend it, in particular the fact
> that it cripples some of the simplest methods of relativistic
> bombardment.

Actually no, we already know that the *ship* retains its original
velocity through jump.  It is just the motion of the *exit point*
during the time of uncertainty in arrival that I'm talking about.
i.e. You plan to jump to (t,x,y,z) in some coordinate system or other.
You arrive at t+dt, due to uncertainty in jump duration.  What are the
resulting values of x, y, and z?

In fact, option 3 makes relativistic bombardment *much* easier, since
you know the near-c object will always emerge near the planned
position relative to the planet.  Options 1 makes it significantly
harder, but option 2 makes it near-impossible.  Unfortunately, option
2 severely contradicts canon.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:36:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:36:56 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> >I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my
> >own air force.
> >
>
> Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
>
> You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles,
> but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up
> with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right
> positions in government for the die hards, it might work.
>
>

Cool! New Zealand is nice. And it's close to Doug's Penguin Emporium too.

OBTRAV: sell that Free Trader, buy a small land mass, and be your own
fascist dictator.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:37:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:37:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017700663.113.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run 
> on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship 
> from stem to stern.

Not without some means of penetrating the Unobtainium shielding used to make
gas giant refueling survivable.  At TL 17, an antimatter microgrenade would be
handy for area clearing, since the resulting radiation is grossly high
penetration; a microgram of antimatter would produce radiation with cosmic ray
level penetration (half dose at around 6 cm steel) and a dose of around 20,000
rads at 10 meters, despite only having the energy of 4-5 kilos of high
explosive and probably vastly less actual blast because a lot of the energy
escapes the immediate area.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:39:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:39:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

They already have something today that will zoom under your 
car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
even restart).

There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then 
have something like this land at your feet.  You might be 
left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.

Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:42:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:42:57 -0500
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
In-Reply-To: <002401c1d9c3$ac6b2e40$6e9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401170844.027d1130@pop.wizard.net>

MJD said:
>Guess I'm just on a bit of a hair-trigger about all the people wanting me/us
>to "fix" this or that about the Traveller universe, TNE, or GURPS Trav. Fix
>it enough times and it'll be something completely different to what you
>started with. Like my computer...

LOL, mine too.  Yeah, spell checkers that are dumber than human copy 
editors are definitely a pet peeve of mine, also.  And while I applaud the 
very human instinct to tinker with things to make them better, I also 
applaud someone with the judgment to know when to stop.

As far as Trav things that have been improved over time but I'm not so sure 
they should have been, I would like to consider the introduction of the 
task system.  The more time goes by, the more it seems to me that most 
players are most comfortable if they just know what number they have to 
roll higher or lower than, and what the dice modifiers are.  Most people 
don't like to be troubled with Impossible, Difficult, Routine, or other 
arbitrary names.  They just want to know the number.  And it doesn't matter 
how easy you make it to remember the hash table for translating from name 
to number.  It's just human nature.  I realize this assertion is not 
welcomed by a lot of veteran game writers, but I do wonder if the 
designer's instinct to tinker maybe went too far there.

I used to be _much_ more friendly to the idea.  But, age has distilled what 
I see as its essential features to just two things.  If it's a hash table 
that slows things down instead of speeding them up, then do away with 
it.  Saves trouble for everyone all around.

Insofar as introducing a task system also led to written guidelines in the 
rules helping referees know what was considered Impossible, Routine, etc., 
that was a good thing.  As a referee, I like to know what the game designer 
really had in mind for how to apply a particular skill to various 
situations.  I may or may not follow it, but it sure helps keep the game 
flowing to have it already provided, and it helps keep the game universe 
consistent for the referee and players.

Getting down to brass tacks even more, it wasn't really a case of 
"introducing a task system".  It was calling an existing process by the 
name 'task system', and adding some more bits and pieces to how the process 
worked.  Whether called 'task system' or not, you still had the process of 
the player (often with referee assistance, or the referee alone) 
determining degree of success or failure by rolling dice, then comparing 
the result to a rule set that modelled the real-world (or fantasy-world) 
difficulty level of that task as part of the game's design.

I am all for keeping the interface for that task as easy and comfortable as 
possible, consistent with the degree of complexity deemed necessary for the 
rule set.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:40:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:40:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020402083045.E9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017700837.7515.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> Actually no, we already know that the *ship* retains its original
> velocity through jump.  It is just the motion of the *exit point*
> during the time of uncertainty in arrival that I'm talking about.
Ok, yeah, misread what you were talking about.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:43:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:43:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017701001.1051.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> They already have something today that will zoom under your 
> car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
> even restart).
> 
> There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
> a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
> will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
> Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
> go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In fact,
gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing the thing will
short out all of its electronics, not to mention other nearby electronics.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:46:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:46:18 +0100
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401170844.027d1130@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <003101c1d9cf$1c812d50$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> LOL, mine too.  Yeah, spell checkers that are dumber than human copy
> editors are definitely a pet peeve of mine, also.  And while I applaud the
> very human instinct to tinker with things to make them better, I also
> applaud someone with the judgment to know when to stop.

Or at least to wait until the fix is coherent, universal, and final....

>
> As far as Trav things that have been improved over time but I'm not so
sure
> they should have been, I would like to consider the introduction of the
> task system.  The more time goes by, the more it seems to me that most
> players are most comfortable if they just know what number they have to
> roll higher or lower than, and what the dice modifiers are.  Most people
> don't like to be troubled with Impossible, Difficult, Routine, or other
> arbitrary names.  They just want to know the number.  And it doesn't
matter
> how easy you make it to remember the hash table for translating from name
> to number.  It's just human nature.  I realize this assertion is not
> welcomed by a lot of veteran game writers, but I do wonder if the
> designer's instinct to tinker maybe went too far there.

I like the T4 system of target number defined by skill and stat; difficulty
(number of dice) by the referee. It works, it's simple. I can remember it.
And since everything is Formidable in my games, you know you have to roll
3D... (!) It's not the same as the MT task system, but it does the same job
and (for me) it's intuitive.

Complex is not better, not-no-never!

>
> I used to be _much_ more friendly to the idea.  But, age has distilled
what
> I see as its essential features to just two things.  If it's a hash table
> that slows things down instead of speeding them up, then do away with
> it.  Saves trouble for everyone all around.
>
> Insofar as introducing a task system also led to written guidelines in the
> rules helping referees know what was considered Impossible, Routine, etc.,
> that was a good thing.  As a referee, I like to know what the game
designer
> really had in mind for how to apply a particular skill to various
> situations.  I may or may not follow it, but it sure helps keep the game
> flowing to have it already provided, and it helps keep the game universe
> consistent for the referee and players.

Yes. better to understand how this rule relates to reality than to be able
to read seven pages of examples and special cases....

>>
> I am all for keeping the interface for that task as easy and comfortable
as
> possible, consistent with the degree of complexity deemed necessary for
the
> rule set.
>
>

Being a Rules-Dumbass, I have to agree....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:47:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:47:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8CE2395.33F89%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 2:39 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> They already have something today that will zoom under your
> car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
> even restart).
> 
> There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
> a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
> will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
> Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
> go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).
> 
> It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
> have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
> left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.
> 
> Shades of Team Fortress Classic.

Isn't that why Military gear uses GaAs semiconductors?  IIRC, these are more
resistant to EMP (and more expensive too).  One would hope that all military
gear would be proof against this.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:48:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:48:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701001.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE23CA.33F8A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 2:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In fact,
> gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing the thing will
> short out all of its electronics, not to mention other nearby electronics.

What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:52:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:52:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
Message-ID: <200204012252.DDN03437@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>If it's a hash table that slows things down instead of 
>speeding them up, then do away with 
>it.  Saves trouble for everyone all around.
>

The problem I have with making corrections/changes/etc to the 
combat system of CT/Book 4 is that it is *very* easy to walk 
off the Cliffs of Complexity.

I am trying to avoid using tables, except a few during 
character generation to come up with your initiative and your 
actions.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:54:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:54:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701001.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020401225400.55216.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

Hmm, I wonder if battle dress uses fiber optics? 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:55:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:55:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012255.DDN03784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?
>
A very, very distinct EM signal.  I'm sure that a simple RF 
detector would be very cheap.

Imagine that on Regina, there are RF DF units on most tall 
buildings.  

Now, anyone cuts loose with a gauss or railgun (and if we 
listen for special capacitor discharges, any laser) and we 
know within a small area where and what type weapon was fired.

The law level is already a bit high there.  I could see it 
happenning.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:54:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:54:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401170844.027d1130@pop.wizard.net> <003101c1d9cf$1c812d50$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CA8E542.8E4259DC@premier.net>


MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> I like the T4 system of target number defined by skill and stat; difficulty
> (number of dice) by the referee. It works, it's simple. I can remember it.
> And since everything is Formidable in my games, you know you have to roll
> 3D... (!) It's not the same as the MT task system, but it does the same job
> and (for me) it's intuitive.

The way my referee handles many tasks, you start at Average; if you
succeed, you work your way up the chart until you fail.  The highest
level at which you succeeded determines the degree of success.  Forex, a
Tactics roll made at Average would enable a leader to form a workable
plan to carry out a given mission.  The same Tactics roll successfully
made at Average, Difficult and Formidable levels would allow that same
leader to create a plan that took the enemy by complete surprise and
caused the foe to surrender after only token resistance.
> 
> Complex is not better, not-no-never!

All depends on where the complexity is and how much it adds to the
gaming experience.  This is, of course, a situation in which _everone's_
mileage is likely to vary....

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:56:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:56:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE23CA.33F8A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017701795.5627.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 4/1/02 2:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> > 
> > Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In
> > fact, gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing
> > the thing will short out all of its electronics, not to mention other
> > nearby electronics. 
> 
> What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?

Presumably, one strong, sharp pulse lasting roughly the length of time it takes
for a bullet to go the length of the barrel.  Not immediately inclined to
figure out the total emitted energy, but I rather doubt that it's small.

Also, gauss weapon != railgun.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:06:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701795.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE27DC.33FBE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 2:56 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> 
> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.
> 

Yes.  According to Book 4, a gauss rifle seems more like a coil gun.  But is
there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  Railguns seem much
simpler for such an application.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:06:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:06:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012255.DDN03784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017702412.3010.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> Now, anyone cuts loose with a gauss or railgun (and if we 
> listen for special capacitor discharges, any laser) and we 
> know within a small area where and what type weapon was fired.

Fusion and plasma weapons will be plenty visible too.  You'll need to
triangulate from multiple sensors, of course, since it's long-wave and won't
give good directional information.

All the more reason to use a good old-fashioned chemical weapon (of course,
bullet noise detectors exist too).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:12:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012312.DDN05750@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>But is there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  
>Railguns seem much simpler for such an application.
>--

I've seen photos of a .45 caliber fully automatic coilgun 
from the WW II era (never more than an experiment).  The gun 
could operate off of vehicle power, and fired at pistol 
velocities and around 600 rounds per minute.

I saw this in the back of Popular Science not too far back 
(well, not all the way back to my childhood).

Would that be considered a "firearm" or even a "machinegun"?  
It looks like something that could be run off the same outlet 
as your washer/dryer.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:15:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:15:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE27DC.33FBE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017702953.7419.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> 
> Yes.  According to Book 4, a gauss rifle seems more like a coil gun.  But
> is there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  Railguns seem much
> simpler for such an application.

Shush.  We're talking canon, not reality.  As far as I can tell fusion and
plasma weapons are stupid ideas too, but canonical ;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:16:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:16:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017702412.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE2A4A.33FED%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 3:06 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> Fusion and plasma weapons will be plenty visible too.  You'll need to
> triangulate from multiple sensors, of course, since it's long-wave and won't
> give good directional information.

Won't you be able to get adequate info from start of pulse and two sensors?
why should wavelength matter, except in regard to the detection antenna.
RDF relies on signal strength.
> 
> All the more reason to use a good old-fashioned chemical weapon (of course,
> bullet noise detectors exist too).

Noise detectors can be fooled by sound suppressors and reflected noise.
Most bullet noise is from the ballistic crack anyway.  There is millimeter
wave radar in use that does a fine job detecting bullets and calculating
back trajectories,  Of course this does get tricky when there's a few
thousand projectiles going hither and yon.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:17:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:17:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Coilgun, or Everyone Go Out And Build A Gauss Rifle
Message-ID: <200204012317.DDO00214@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.oz.net/~coilgun/home.htm

Stone knives and bearskins.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:25:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:25:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIEFADIAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

Really?  Why dont the cops use them for those highway chases then?
Something that kills the engine would be real handy there...

>>They already have something today that will zoom under your
>>car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
>>even restart).


Justin

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:40 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] handy device


They already have something today that will zoom under your
car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
even restart).

There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.

Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



_________________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:26:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:26:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE2A4A.33FED%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017703573.6212.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 4/1/02 3:06 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> > Fusion and plasma weapons will be plenty visible too.  You'll need to
> > triangulate from multiple sensors, of course, since it's long-wave and
> > won't give good directional information.
> 
> Won't you be able to get adequate info from start of pulse and two sensors?

You'll need at least three to be certain.  In any case, using two sensors is
triangulation.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:31:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:31:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401181557.00a8b2e0@pop.wizard.net>

JT Kwon wrote:
>And the Army sums all of that up in "always consider METT-T
>when making decisions".
Yes, exactly.  Just rephrasing Sun Tzu, really.

>The scale I'm thinking about is the typical Traveller party.
>They don't have enough bodies to do it right, on the
>average.  So they'll be throwing grenades.  But the soldiers
>who are fighting against a party might just rush in like this.
Aha.  I wasn't really thinking in that context.  Agreed, that they very 
well might.  My response to the starship-theft scenario was to decide that 
any decent-sized starport (in the Imperium) is going to have its own SWAT 
team.  So it might be the SWAT team who is assaulting.

>I'm not sure that you could move that quickly under zero-g
>conditions.
An excellent point.  You could launch yourself along a vector by pushing 
off a wall, etc. but you might have a tough time getting three or four 
people to burst into a room while staying close enough to touch each other, 
then split off into different directions as soon as each one just barely 
got inside the door frame.

Should make Zero-G Combat a desirable skill.  A skilled person would 
probably be able to bounce off the door frame as they enter and move 
practically parallel to the interior wall.  A little like getting skilled 
on a trampoline.

>I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run
>on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship
>from stem to stern.  Arguably, orders are going to tell a
>military unit to use the least level of violence necessary to
>take your ship, but if you successfully resisted one boarding
>attempt, and they wanted the ship, they could just give you
>all the "treatment" and board after everyone dies of
>radiation.

Good idea, but only when you don't care about trashing the rather expensive 
ship.  Hmm, if you have particle accelerators with relatively low power 
settings, then maybe you have meson guns and the luxury of being able to 
target them very finely.  Use neural activity sensors for targeting.  How's 
_that_ for a science fiction scene?  Arthur C. Clarke himself, sitting in 
the interior, wouldn't be able to distinguish it from magic as hostage 
takers in the cabin with him suddenly have large chunks of their bodies 
just disappear, with a release of some heat.

If it's a SWAT type situation, I think most SWATs would have robots 
somewhat smaller than humans, and would use breaching charges to crack open 
hatches or portholes and then insert the bots.  The bots wouldn't so much 
be fighting bots as exploratory scout bots.  Also explosive bots and 
gas-releasing bots.  Let's see, using neural activity sensors from outside 
the hull, you should be able to breach almost directly into the hull where 
the targets are.  They might also try to breach the hull where they can cut 
off power to the internal grav grid, or try to seize control of the 
internal grav grid.  Similarly, breaching the hull to open the interior to 
raw vacuum might be useful if the targets don't all have proper suits.  In 
general, you'd like to avoid breaching the hull, because that damage is 
more difficult to repair and make the ship spaceworthy again.  Breaching 
hatches and portholes is better.  IMTU.  YMMV.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:29:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:29:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012329.DDP00854@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Justin Bunnell" says
>
>Really?  Why dont the cops use them for those highway chases 
>then? Something that kills the engine would be real handy 
>there...
>

that's who it's marketed to.  It's a little flat rocket 
powered car that's about 1 foot x 2 foot.  It drops from 
under the chase car, zooms forward, and is guided under the 
target car.

I think that the EMP part works fine.  It's probably not very 
good on even slightly bad pavement, and you have to get it 
under the target vehicle.

I hear they have the same sort of thing for roadblocks, 
except that the target vehicle drives over the EMP device.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:39:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:39:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017700663.113.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401183213.00a8a050@pop.wizard.net>

Anthony Jackson quoted and wrote:
>John T. Kwon writes:
>
> > I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run
> > on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship
> > from stem to stern.
>
>Not without some means of penetrating the Unobtainium shielding used to make
>gas giant refueling survivable.

I had a similar thought about the unobtainium.  I think what John had in 
mind was toasting up the unobtainium just enough to cause it to throw all 
kinds of nasty radiation from the unobtainium hull itself.  Not crack the 
ship open, just induce severe radiation sickness in its inhabitants.

Depending on the properties of the unobtainium (crystaliron, bonded 
superdense, whatever) the ship may or may not become safe for human 
habitation in the next decade or more.  And of course, maybe the TL 15 
wizards can shoot another ray gun at the hull to make it stop being 
radioactive again.  Wouldn't that be handy?  Hmm, also handy for 
battlefield cleanup in all too many situations.  I could never figure out 
why the Traveller universe isn't _much_ more littered with radioactive 
wastelands than canon indicates.  Now if someone can just come up with an 
acceptable hand wave for the ray gun.  (Does anyone else remember the 
ionization denebulizer guns for kids?)

Neither materials science nor particle physics are my fields (obviously), 
but I think the gist of what I'm saying works anyway.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:37:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] F15D Scorpion Recon Fighter TL 11
References: <3CA80B0E.6302.4EB743@localhost>
Message-ID: <005701c1d9d6$22597000$a5d0f6d1@customer>

I can't read whatever format your designs are in.  Do you have a HMTL or
Text version.

John Scarlett

----- Original Message -----
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 8:23 AM
Subject: [TML] F15D Scorpion Recon Fighter TL 11


> A Recon fighter design for the Consort and Kiev, Thanks for the
Inspiration Anthony
>
>
>


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----


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> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
>
>    ---- File information -----------
>      File:  F15C Scorpion 15T Fighter TL11.gtv
>      Date:  1 Apr 2002, 7:16
>      Size:  6244 bytes.
>      Type:  Unknown
>


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> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
>
>    ---- File information -----------
>      File:  F15D Scorpion 15T Recon Fighter TL11.gtv
>      Date:  1 Apr 2002, 7:21
>      Size:  5184 bytes.
>      Type:  Unknown
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:43:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:43:22 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
>And no frags!

Looking down pitifully at very large frag grenade with it's pin pulled and 
spoon just about to be released...

"Awwwww.  But Sa-arge?" comes the whine.

Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable sleeves and even 
the explosive charge can pull apart into three separate and working 
charges.  You can make your grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need it 
to be, pretty much.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:42:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:42:52 +0100
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
References: <200204012252.DDN03437@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003801c1d9d7$03a278e0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> 
> The problem I have with making corrections/changes/etc to the 
> combat system of CT/Book 4 is that it is *very* easy to walk 
> off the Cliffs of Complexity.
> 
> I am trying to avoid using tables, except a few during 
> character generation to come up with your initiative and your 
> actions.
>

Wise. Very Wise.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:45:02 +0100
Subject: [TML] room clearing
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <003f01c1d9d7$50c1d1c0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable sleeves and even
> the explosive charge can pull apart into three separate and working
> charges.  You can make your grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need
it
> to be, pretty much.
>
That sounds like something that troopers would break.
As in "if you leave three soldiers in the desert with an anvil, and come
back later, the anvil will be broken. And they won't know how it happened."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:47:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:47:19 -0800
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DB@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

You might want to try to find a copy of Yachts International Magazine.  Fodder for those dreams ;)

Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: laning [mailto:laning@wizard.net]
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 1:44 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)


Living on an airplane would not be fun.  All that loud buzzing.  And the 
bad air.  Yuck.

My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.

I like to throw in people living out the Traveller version of this dream 
wandering from planet to planet, living on their converted merchant.  The 
more oft-encountered version of people living an imitation of this dream is 
the crew of a merchant that is family, or like a family together.  They 
still need to hustle for the credits to pay off the bank, keep the ship 
fuelled and maintained, etc.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:50:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:50:33 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <001f01c1d9c8$14f2af20$629193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com>
 <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net>

I wrote:
> > My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a
> > twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.
> >
MJD responded:
>I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air force.

I want the yacht because it makes it a lot easier to travel to and visit 
all the places I want to see.  I've seen Greece for all of ten days, and 
that certainly isn't enough.  Just for starters.  Most of the world's 
population lives within twenty miles of navigable water I have read more 
than once, so it should make life convenient.

And yes, San Diego would be high on my list of places to spend some anchor 
time.  My friend went on an Alaskan coastline cruise in her yacht last year 
and loved it; it's the other direction but you may want to think about 
it.  Don't forget to watch John Sayles' movie 'Limbo' before you go.  :->

ObTrav:  Just where in the Spinward Marches would be the popular 
destinations for pleasure travellers with the means?  Would there be 
anything seasonal to the travel patterns?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:52:04 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185058.00a65e80@pop.wizard.net>

JT Kwon wrote:
>Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
>
>You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles,
>but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up
>with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right
>positions in government for the die hards, it might work.

The worst part is it's probably the New Zealanders on the list who are 
laughing the hardest at that.  :->

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:50:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:50:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012350.DDP03311@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable 
>sleeves and even the explosive charge can pull apart into 
>three separate and working charges.  You can make your 
>grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need it 
>to be, pretty much.
>
I've seen a modern German grenade that has a removable sleeve 
for frag/no frag.  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:51:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:51:46 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> > >
> MJD responded:
> >I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air
force.
>
> I want the yacht because it makes it a lot easier to travel to and visit
> all the places I want to see.  I've seen Greece for all of ten days, and
> that certainly isn't enough.  Just for starters.  Most of the world's
> population lives within twenty miles of navigable water I have read more
> than once, so it should make life convenient.
>

Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are
very handy for burglars...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:56:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:56:53 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>

MJD wrote:
>OBTRAV: sell that Free Trader, buy a small land mass, and be your own
>fascist dictator.

Which is sort of the the piracy issue brought up earlier.  If you can skip 
on your ship's mortage, or steal a ship, or pirate a ship just _one_ time 
in your life and sell the ship, then a lot of people would.  And in fact 
buy their own island somewhere.  Or live on the Spruce Goose or whatever 
their dream is.

Knowing most player characters as we do, it's no wonder so few referees 
like to let their PCs get possession of a ship, any ship.  Me?  I'd like to 
give players ships, I really would.  But what they'll do with the ill 
gotten booty from selling it terrifies me.

This has driven me to tinker with starship costs quite a lot, trying to 
reduce their value by orders of magnitude.  I still haven't found a 
solution that seems properly balanced.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:54:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:54:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
making MY windows rattle.

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:40 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] handy device


They already have something today that will zoom under your 
car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
even restart).

There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then 
have something like this land at your feet.  You might be 
left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.

Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:55:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:55:23 -0600
Subject: Soldiers Breaking Things (was: Re: [TML] room clearing)
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net> <003f01c1d9d7$50c1d1c0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CA8F36B.AD819CDD@premier.net>


MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
> > Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable sleeves and even
> > the explosive charge can pull apart into three separate and working
> > charges.  You can make your grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need
> it
> > to be, pretty much.
> >
> That sounds like something that troopers would break.
> As in "if you leave three soldiers in the desert with an anvil, and come
> back later, the anvil will be broken. And they won't know how it happened."

Reminds me of a comic strip in _The Paraglide_ (the Ft. Bragg post
newspaper) a number of years ago.  This particular edition of "G.I.
Bill" was on "The Thought Processes of a Private," which were broken
down into the following steps (this is from memory, but it should be
mostly accurate):

1.  Private hears question from sergeant ("How could you lose a 2 1/2
ton truck?!?")
2.  Ears send question to brain.
3.  Brain, not wanting to deal with question, sends question to stomach.
4.  Stomach mishears question as "What was that stuff they served for
lunch today in the chow hall?"
5.  Stomach sends answer to question to mouth.
6.  Mouth responds, "I don't know, Sergeant!"

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:58:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:58:20 EST
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
Message-ID: <193.4c190af.29da4e1c@aol.com>

--part1_193.4c190af.29da4e1c_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 02/04/02 00:53:39 GMT Daylight Time, 
martinjd@globalnet.co.uk writes:


> Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are
> very handy for burglars...
> 

I'm sure they are - think of the damage the little rascal could do when he 
got them home.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_193.4c190af.29da4e1c_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 00:53:39 GMT Daylight Time, martinjd@globalnet.co.uk writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are<BR>
very handy for burglars...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I'm sure they are - think of the damage the little rascal could do when he got them home.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:59:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:59:06 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017702953.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE344A.3401B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 3:15 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

>> Yes.  According to Book 4, a gauss rifle seems more like a coil gun.  But
>> is there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  Railguns seem much
>> simpler for such an application.
> 
> Shush.  We're talking canon, not reality.  As far as I can tell fusion and
> plasma weapons are stupid ideas too, but canonical ;)

I like railguns.  I like the idea of a gauss weapon with a muzzle blast and
noise.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:02:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:02:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE344A.3401B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017705741.4086.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> > Shush.  We're talking canon, not reality.  As far as I can tell fusion
> > and plasma weapons are stupid ideas too, but canonical ;)
> 
> I like railguns.  I like the idea of a gauss weapon with a muzzle blast and
> noise.

Why would a railgun produce either?  Aside from the sabot being ejected, and
the crack of the bullet, that is, and both would apply to coilguns too.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:07:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:07:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012350.DDP03311@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8CE3646.34024%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 3:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> laning says
>> 
>> Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable
>> sleeves and even the explosive charge can pull apart into
>> three separate and working charges.  You can make your
>> grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need it
>> to be, pretty much.
>> 
> I've seen a modern German grenade that has a removable sleeve
> for frag/no frag.

So called offensive/defensive or polyvalent grenades. There are a whole slew
of them.

I suspect you're thinking of the DM 51.  There's a removable plastic body
element containing steel shot that fits around an HE core and fuse.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:13:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:13:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204011749.DDD03964@vmms1.verisignmail.com> from "John T. Kwon" at Apr 01, 2002 12:49:19 PM
Message-ID: <200204020013.g320DTU02643@localhost.uia.net>

> I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
> effects when you modify Planck's constant.

Not talking about modifying Planck's constant. Only talking about
modifying inertia. Tim introduced the idea of modifying Planck's
constant as a device to keep strangeness from happening when
inertia is modified, but I'm not 100% sure that inertial suppression
would necessarily result in strangeness in the first place. Trying
to get some thoughts on the matter.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:22:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:22:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017705741.4086.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE39B4.34031%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 4:02 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
>> I like railguns.  I like the idea of a gauss weapon with a muzzle blast and
>> noise.
> 
> Why would a railgun produce either?  Aside from the sabot being ejected, and
> the crack of the bullet, that is, and both would apply to coilguns too.

Well, unless you are in vacuum, you get incandescent gas from the arc and
plasma.  See the photos of some real railguns at
http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons/tech/rail.html

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:32:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:32:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE39B4.34031%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017707545.2749.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:

> Well, unless you are in vacuum, you get incandescent gas from the arc and
> plasma.  See the photos of some real railguns at
> http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons/tech/rail.html

Hm...ideally you'd avoid arcing in the first place, since it's not at all
necessary for accelerating the round.  I guess some arcing is unavoidable,
though.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:05:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 20:05:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] I need to run a real life battle
In-Reply-To: <20020329.215011.-23887.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHEEPFCFAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

Do I get to use my shotgun?

-SRS-

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
> generalturokan@juno.com
> Sent: Saturday, 30 March, 2002 00:50
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] I need to run a real life battle
> 
> 
> Thank you TML
> 
> On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 17:48:18 -0800 generalturokan@juno.com writes:
> > 
> > Are there any volunteers?
> 
> I wish to thank all those who've responded off-line to my request.
> 
> Thanks a lot.
> 
> I wont need anyone else to volunteer.
> 
> 
> Gen. Turokan
> 
> 
> -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..       ..   ...       --   -.-- 
>     ...   .-   ...-   ..   ---   .-.   --..--      
>  ..       .-..   ---   ...-  .       .---   .   ...   ..-   ...      
> -.-.   ....   .-.   ..   ...   -       .--  ..   -   ....       
> .-   .-..   .-..       --   -.--       ....   .   .-  .-.   -   .-.-.-
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:10:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:10:19 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>

One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at
doorlocks etc...

How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior is
exposed to Vacuum?

Not many...

Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by
being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a recording
being played over radio)

I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices
relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad ID
number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the
card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you
have access to your account.

After all, you want security to stop casual access to secure areas, but not
so secure that it inhibits routine or emergency access.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:17:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:17:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>

Matthew Bond writes:
> One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's
> at doorlocks etc...
> 
> How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior
> is exposed to Vacuum?

How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use? 
There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
'security while everyone is away'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:22:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:22:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Accents and Bonuses
Message-ID: <gu1iau87ahojttup95thnjogcis4ps6ijl@4ax.com>

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 08:11:19 -0800 (PST), Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:

>ObTrav: A ship crewed by Orthodox Jews sets up so they will spend Passover 
>in jump.  They misjump, and come out of jump way early, on a course to hit 
>something large and fatal.  Your characters are passengers on said 
>ship..  Much fun happens.

Actually, _any_ of the rules can be broken if the alternative is one's own
death.  Including the Sabbath, and eating treyf.



--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:23:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:23:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Pinging the list
Message-ID: <tv1iauc8kg0u7pr0a2985fcfqb69fevomj@4ax.com>

Checking some odd behavior of my mail client and/or ISP.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:40:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:40:01 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <00c801c1d9e7$4e129d00$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?


> Matthew Bond writes:
> > One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint
ID's
> > at doorlocks etc...
> >
> > How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> > Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the
interior
> > is exposed to Vacuum?
>
> How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use?
> There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
> 'security while everyone is away'.

On any passenger carrying vessel, I would expect several areas to be Locked
routinely... Bridge, Cargo, Engineering, etc.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:45:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:45:41 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <00d401c1d9e8$18f2f420$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?


> Matthew Bond writes:
> > One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint
ID's
> > at doorlocks etc...
> >
> > How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> > Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the
interior
> > is exposed to Vacuum?
>
> How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use?
> There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
> 'security while everyone is away'.

And what happens if battle damage (or a micrometeoroid impact) has cause the
hull to become depressurised, while simultaneously causing a computer glitch
to activate the Locks used while in Dock...

If there is any chance that the lockable area needs to be accessed in vacuum
conditions, then I for one want a locking mechanism that doesn't require me
to expose any part of my body to vacuum.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:50:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:50:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1d9e8$18f2f420$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>

Matthew Bond writes:

> And what happens if battle damage (or a micrometeoroid impact) has cause
> the hull to become depressurised, while simultaneously causing a computer
> glitch to activate the Locks used while in Dock...

Well, odds are the lock won't work at all then.  Plus, who says you're going to
put a thumbprint lock on the _inside_ of the lock?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:03:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:03:55 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <20020401200104.BCEA627A48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c1d9e9$a2218e40$f6b18b90@computer>

> From: laning
> Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no
> scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the
> fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world
> in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL 13
> COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much less
> likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.

One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:56:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:56:24 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer>

> From: "MJ Dougherty"
> Cool! New Zealand is nice. And it's close to Doug's Penguin Emporium too.

Sadly, somebody already owns New Zealand.  It's just not considered polite
to talk about it.  The same applies to Papua New Guinea, East Timor, and a
bunch of other countries.

> OBTRAV: sell that Free Trader, buy a small land mass, and be your own
> fascist dictator.

That's my favourite kind of game these days.  I've got to the point where
starships barely appear any more.

"Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got a
harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a fusion
reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own army.
What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania thinks he
has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us independent
enclaves to make sure he doesn't."

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:57:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:57:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <003d01c1d9e9$a2218e40$f6b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017712657.2060.ajackson@ping>

Alan Bradley writes:
> > From: laning
> > Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no
> > scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the
> > fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world
> > in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL
> > 13 COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much
> > less likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.
> 
> One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?

Um...most likely something he's not supposed to be doing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 02:01:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:01:13 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017712657.2060.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CA910E9.25637C99@premier.net>


Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Alan Bradley writes:

<<snip>>
> >
> > One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?
> 
> Um...most likely something he's not supposed to be doing?

Pining for the fjords?  (Or, for GT players, pining for the fnords.)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 02:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 03:08:08 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?


> Matthew Bond writes:
>
> > And what happens if battle damage (or a micrometeoroid impact) has cause
> > the hull to become depressurised, while simultaneously causing a
computer
> > glitch to activate the Locks used while in Dock...
>
> Well, odds are the lock won't work at all then.  Plus, who says you're
going to
> put a thumbprint lock on the _inside_ of the lock?

Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:07:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:07:17 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com> <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane>

Alan tells us:
> "Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got a
> harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
> schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a fusion
> reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own army.
> What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania thinks he
> has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us independent
> enclaves to make sure he doesn't."

Yeah, I know what you mean.  That seems to be the way my Traveller game is
gravitating.

I suppose it's the eternal hazard of lavishing too much detail on the worlds
your PCs visit:  They start getting these crazy notions of settling down and
setting up shop!  While I enjoy exploring the "going native" part of the
game, it's also unbelievably frustrating at times.

I really don't want to allow this kind of behaviour.  Maybe it's because I'm
afraid of commitment. Uhm.. To a single world, that is.  Or simply that I
just can't let go of the "traveling" aspect of Traveller.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Proponent of Planetary Polygamy
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 02:25:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:55:47 +0930 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
In-Reply-To: <200204011651.DDB04154@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204021153350.24002-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi John:

On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> I like to have robots, but there's a certain tedium to Book
> 8.  So far, I've resorted to just "saying" that a robot is a
> certain way.  I don't really like the Star Wars robots, but
> there is a certain edge to the robots as presented in AI
> (where they are "nearly" like us, but still imperfect).
>
> How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?

 Been way to long since I looked at Book 8. As for bots in my game world.
U used some ideas from a Challange article on Shadowrun and images  for my
mind from the High Colonies game  Mainly now besides sercant bots on
tracks or wheels. The others encountered are "pig iron" Secutrity type
that are armed.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:16:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:16:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204020316.DDW00039@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bulkhead Doors

Bulkhead doors can be either a retracting door or an iris 
valve.  Which one is more common depends on YTU.  In canon, 
they are iris valves.

All bulkhead doors have a basic mechanical mechanism, which 
can be operated in a powered or non-powered mode.

All bulkhead doors have an mechanical lock which has a 
powered assist.

All bulkhead doors have a pressure indicator, both a powered 
indicator and a manual pin.  If there is vacuum on the other 
side, and air on your side, the pin slot shows a depression.  
If you are in vacuum and there is pressure on the other side, 
the pin sticks out.  If the pressure is equal, the pin is 
level with the surface.  Some ships, military and scoutships 
in particular, will also have fire and radiation sensors at 
every bulkhead door.

In an emergency, the door can be unlocked manually and 
operated manually. The manual lock requires a key, which all 
ship's personnel carry.  It is rather large, and easy to 
handle with gloved hands.  Usually, all keys are the same, 
except for keys leading to the bridge and engineering, which 
are both different by custom.

On military ships, all keys are kept in cases near each 
door.  For special secure areas, the keys are under Marine 
guard.

If the door still has power, and the key is used to operate 
the door, an alarm will sound in that section and on the 
bridge.

For more convenience, bulkhead doors are usually used in 
powered mode.  There is a sensor pad next to the door, which 
can detect a keycard within 10cm.  If the keycard is valid, 
the buttons which operate the door are enabled: there are two 
buttons which change color by status:  lock/unlock and 
open/close.  There is a convenience pocket in vacc suit 
sleeves (right and left) into which a crewman usually has a 
keycard.  The pocket is closed with velcro.

Airlocks

Airlocks have two bulkhead doors: inner and outer.  The 
airlock is equipped with pressure sensors inside and outside 
the airlock (including inside the ship).  There are 
additional controls in the airlock which also respond to the 
keys which are used to control the pressure in the airlock 
itself.  Scout ships usually have a more exotic external 
atmosphere sensor, which can also be monitored from the 
bridge. At least one door on passenger ships has a weapons 
detector and explosives/powercell sniffer.

Even if the ship is on the ground, and there is breathable 
air, if you open the inner door, the airlock chamber has 
warning lights that come on.  If there is vacuum outside and 
atmosphere inside, a warning will sound in that section and 
on the bridge.  Once you close the inner door, you can open 
the outer door.  In order to open both doors at once, it 
requires that you manually operate the doors -- this cannot 
be done using the electronic controls.

Now, as for securing the ship against theft while on the 
ground:

The ship's computer operates in a different mode when landed 
or docked, as opposed to under way.  Once the ship's computer 
is not in "under way" mode, a specific crewman's sensor key 
and password is required to change the mode.  Logon to ship's 
computers is a combination of the sensor key and a password.

If you can't log on and don't have permission to change the 
mode, you can't operate the engines, sensors, weapons, etc.

Additionally, the ship, while not "under way", will sound an 
alarm if one of the airlock or cargo bay doors is opened 
manually or forced.  This alarm can be sent to a 
predesignated communicator (the captain's, for instance).  
This alarm can be set through the ship's computer for any 
door.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:49:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:49:00 -0500
Subject: [TML] does that make me an apostate?
In-Reply-To: <200204011656.DDB04760@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401224644.00cdd1a8@192.168.0.1>

At 11:56 AM 4/1/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>As I've gotten older, I've just gotten to doing some
>equipment by "it's about this long, about this heavy, etc.."
>I've done the same thing with NPCs.
>Sometimes FFS drives me nuts.
>I seem to be able to write about some things better if I just
>say things are "just so".
>After all, can anyone out there take any of the robot design
>sequences and come up with Gigolo Joe?

Once the Tech level get's high enough, it would be easier to make a 'bio-bot'
Mostly human tissue grown in a vat and a programmed brain.  GURPs Robots 
would be my choice for design.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:52:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <3CA8C9D6.9000605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200203312207.DBP01462@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401224917.01b08448@192.168.0.1>

At 01:57 PM 4/1/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>John T. Kwon wrote:
>>The only problem I have with the new room clearing technique is that if 
>>people are expecting you, then all they need is a long burst fire (belt 
>>fed) to keep you out of the room.
>>The new technique involves a team of 4 flowing into the room and moving 
>>left or right as they flow in and occupy corners of the room by flowing 
>>along the walls.
>>Might make an interesting scenario to game out using ACQ.
>>If the people flowing into the room have more actions per combat round 
>>than the people occupying the room, it might work.
>>The use of grenades is now an exception in room clearing.  I do remember 
>>throwing a simulator into a closet in MOUT training, and being declared a 
>>casualty.  Maybe they have something there.
>I wonder how this compares, to, say, standard SWAT protocol for the same. 
>They make extensive use of flashbangs (Presumably the 'stun grenade' 
>mentioned in the link.

Flash bangs are also quite dangerous in confined spaces.  The big 
difference between that and fragmentation grenade is lack of fragmentation 
in the Flashbang.  You still have about the same amount of explosive material.

>Presumably they are less likely to encounter return fire than soldiers 
>clearing a room in a battle, but there's also the rather tricky (and now, 
>all too common) mingling of non-combatants and combatants in today's battles.
>Mis-calculate where enemy fire is coming from in a large building, and you 
>could burst into the room next door, filled with refugees instead of bad guys.
>All I can say is I DON'T want to be the poor sucker taking that #1 position.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!
Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:51:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:51:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
References: <200204011651.DDB04154@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA92ABA.54139D45@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?

I use book 8 and 101 Robots. My players currently use a batch of
obsolete TL 12 (MT) floor models including a traderbot, engineeringbot,
valetbot, medibot, constructionbot and agrobot. They take a perverse
delight in using the agrobot to take care of livestock for the vargar
steward to eat. As the TL goes up they become more "sophantlike" until
TL16 they begin to have personalities.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I eat babies. I drink pee. I must be French!, French!, French!
                  -Nathan Lane & Chris Katein



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:56:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:56:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE2395.33F89%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401225457.01da10b0@192.168.0.1>

At 02:47 PM 4/1/2002 -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 4/1/02 2:39 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> > They already have something today that will zoom under your
> > car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
> > even restart).
> > There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
> > a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
> > will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
> > Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
> > go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).
> > It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
> > have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
> > left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.
> > Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
>Isn't that why Military gear uses GaAs semiconductors?  IIRC, these are more
>resistant to EMP (and more expensive too).  One would hope that all military
>gear would be proof against this.

Extensive shielding and redundancy are parts of my handwaves on why 
Traveller computers are so darn big.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:58:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 21:58:01 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane>
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com> <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer> <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <ojaiaukds95jfm1e8hbvvfhdk7e51bpoec@4ax.com>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:07:17 +1000, "Shane Slamet"
<s.slamet@bom.gov.au> wrote:

>Alan tells us:
>> "Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got =
a
>> harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
>> schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a =
fusion
>> reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own =
army.
>> What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania =
thinks he
>> has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us =
independent
>> enclaves to make sure he doesn't."
>
>Yeah, I know what you mean.  That seems to be the way my Traveller game =
is
>gravitating.
>
>I suppose it's the eternal hazard of lavishing too much detail on the =
worlds
>your PCs visit:  They start getting these crazy notions of settling down=
 and
>setting up shop!  While I enjoy exploring the "going native" part of the
>game, it's also unbelievably frustrating at times.
>
>I really don't want to allow this kind of behaviour.  Maybe it's because=
 I'm
>afraid of commitment. Uhm.. To a single world, that is.  Or simply that =
I
>just can't let go of the "traveling" aspect of Traveller.

This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
(or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.

=46rom a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become part
of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:15:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:15:14 -0600
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
References: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping> <20020402083045.E9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CA93052.B595C25F@pobox.com>

Timothy Little wrote:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
> > Timothy Little writes:

>>As far as I can see, there are three main contenders for how the jump
exit point moves:...

> > > 3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
> > > planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.
> > This one has several things to recommend it, in particular the fact
> > that it cripples some of the simplest methods of relativistic
> > bombardment.
> Actually no, we already know that the *ship* retains its original
> velocity through jump.  ...
> In fact, option 3 makes relativistic bombardment *much* easier, since
> you know the near-c object will always emerge near the planned
> position relative to the planet.

I vote for option 3, although it does contribute to the near-C rock dilemma.
I have used it IMTU with a slight twist...the 'direction' of the ship's vector
on arrival is also relative to the body with the greatest gravitational field,
i.e. the planet.  So if you accelerate out from the planet and jump, you
arrive still heading away from the planet.

Under this model. it makes sense for merchants (and others) to jump with zero
velocity (relative to the planet).  It also means that anything which comes
out of jump with an inward vector (comes in 'hot') had to work hard to do
that, by travelling past the jump point, and then turning around and
accelerating back inward before jump.  Since most of the reasons for wanting
to do this are military in nature, system defenses are very hostile to ships
which come in 'hot'.

I deal with near-C rocks in another way, which I will post in a separate
thread so that all present can shoot holes in it ;-).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:11:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:11:40 -0600
Subject: [TML] Another Power Source For FF&S2?
Message-ID: <3CA92F7C.B45F42C3@premier.net>

Herewith my First of April contribution to the TML.  Enjoy!

While getting caught up on the Temple ov thee Lemur Web site, I noticed
that they had an article about a potato-powered Web server.  The FAQ, in
response to the question "How much energy can you get out of a potato?",
answered thusly:

"Again, this varies considerably. Using the zinc/copper electrodes that
we have at present, we get a voltage of about 0.8V (+-0.1V) and a
maximum sustainable currrent of about 15mA. We can draw this current for
about 15 hours before we notice an appreciable drop, so a back of an
envelope calculation of total useful energy would be in the region of
650J."

http://totl.net/FAQ/features/spud/

Should we add chemoelectric potatoes as a power plant option in FF&S2?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:02:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:02:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017702412.3010.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204012255.DDN03784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401195939.009fdcd0@mindspring.com>

At 03:06 PM 4/1/02 -0800, you wrote:
>All the more reason to use a good old-fashioned chemical weapon (of course,
>bullet noise detectors exist too).

But sound echoes..

Yesterday, being Easter, Colma's cemetaries were filled with Chinese 
families paying their respects to their ancestors.  This involves 
firecrackers.  Lots of firecrakers.

There are 45,000 bodies in Colma, close to half of them Chinese.  The town 
sits in a valley, and is *filled* with marble sound reflectors.

It sounded like a bloody battalion-sized firefight.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:14:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:14:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>

At 12:41 PM 4/1/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Unfortunately, the further I went the more I discovered
>that the two were completely incompatible. CT worldgen
>(including the extended system in Book 6) simply breaks
>the laws of physics. Repeatedly. In ways that are very
>hard to gloss over.

LOL!  Very true, very true...


>My response was to make "realistic" the default setting,
>and include a number of notes demonstrating how to go
>about something more Classic in style if that was to
>your taste. In retrospect that was probably the wrong
>strategy. At the time I wasn't sure what the biggest
>part of the audience would be - long-time Traveller
>players or newcomers. Clearly, I guessed wrong.

Not entirely true.. those not interested in scientific accuracy tend not to 
bother with extended design systems.


>If First In goes to a second edition, I think the world
>design sequence will default to something much more
>like Book 6 worldgen, with "realism notes" allowing the
>referee to flesh things out or substitute more realistic
>steps to taste. (About the only thing that I would "fix"
>in the default sequence would be the formula for world
>surface temperature in Book 6, which is not only wrong,
>but wrong in such a way that it actually makes Book 6
>much harder to use.)

Hey, I like it just fine.  The only thing I would change is move the 
sections on mapping and animal encounters behind the population details.

>I suspect that would make First In considerably easier
>for long-time Traveller fans to use in their established
>Traveller universes - while still allowing folks who
>roll their own to be as realistic as they choose.

For the record, for Trojan Reach I'm making adjustments to the classic 
information.  Mostly, this is changes stellar types, and changing the sizes 
of worlds that are way to small for their listed "uses."  I'm trying to 
keep the feel of the worlds while making them fit the math.

It's a tightrope, and I hope everyone approves.

(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:22:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <002401c1d9c3$ac6b2e40$6e9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401201741.009f0020@mindspring.com>

At 10:24 PM 4/1/02 +0100, you wrote:
>Guess I'm just on a bit of a hair-trigger about all the people wanting me/us
>to "fix" this or that about the Traveller universe, TNE, or GURPS Trav. Fix
>it enough times and it'll be something completely different to what you
>started with. Like my computer...

"Fixing" world generation doesn't have to be backwards compatible; if you 
want to have Mars-sized worlds with thick atmospheres, it's your hand wave.

In my experience, playing with the rules that the Gods of Nature and 
Physics give us is far more interesting, with odd results like the 
intelligences under the ice that Jens came up with...

For example: these races are all psionic, and have their own "Imperium" 
connected by telepathy and interstellar teleports.  They manipulate us to 
protect their own interests.  Interesting setting, especially when someone 
twigs to the secret.. y'see, *these* are the Ancients!  Al, the Yaskodray 
business is misdirection on their part.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 23:12:36 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <ojaiaukds95jfm1e8hbvvfhdk7e51bpoec@4ax.com>
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com> <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer> <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane> <ojaiaukds95jfm1e8hbvvfhdk7e51bpoec@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1dfiauodt52jg11nh29p9a68ulq7t55aer@4ax.com>

On Mon, 01 Apr 2002 21:58:01 -0600, JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
wrote:

>This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
>There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
>(or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
>sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
>example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.
>
>From a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become part
>of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
>destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
>becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.

Damn.  "Villains"

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:15:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David & Kristin Larson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 21:15:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] RE: John Kwon's SOP
In-Reply-To: <20020401233807.357B8279F7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1da05$6c754180$0300000a@c263000a>

John, I'd also be willing to review your SOP. I'm sure it's something I
could use and I'd be more than willing to pass on any thoughts or ideas
(probably give a different branch perspective as well).

David Larson
dlarson@blarg.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:43:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David & Kristin Larson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 21:43:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] RE: Room Clearing
In-Reply-To: <20020401233807.357B8279F7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c1da09$61259ba0$0300000a@c263000a>

Flash-bangs are in relatively common use (at least I've had no problem
getting them from the ASP).

The biggest factor regarding the use of frag grenades I've come up with is
the likelihood of 1) friendlies in the room (hostages, etc) and 2) the
likelihood of a frag/round punching through the wall. Lined up outside the
door, pressed against the wall is a bad place to be if you're about to
perforate said wall with fragments. Assuming the absence of friendlies and
the presence of strong walls, more boom is better. :)

Of course you always have to consider how badly you *want* to clear the room
or building. Sometimes it's just better to *remove* the building than to
preserve it for future use. YSMV (your situation may vary) ;)

Reading one of the earlier posts regarding the mechanics of room-clearing, a
key point was unclear: when entering the room (assuming a common four-sided
room) the four team members enter as fast as they can alternating moving to
the left and right along the two walls. As they move in they can clear what
they see, but each has a well defined sector that they are responsible for
and must clear. Just because you see a target doesn't make it your shot
(only if your sector is already cleared and no teammates are in the way). As
you move into the room your *available* sector of fire, that which you can
fire into, starts very large but then very rapidly shrinks to a tiny
fraction of what you had. That's why you sweep through the room rather than
point yourself directly at you corner.

Assuming your the number one man and your SOP has you entering and moving
left, your sweep as you enter the door will start in the center of the room
and rapidly sweep to the left corner. As you move towards that corner you
sweep back to the right towards the opposite corner until the room is clear.

OnT: This is not something that the ordinary Traveller group should attempt,
especially against trained opponents. Even if the defender is of a poor tech
level, poorly armed, etc he still holds an advantage. The only real asset
you have is shock and speed. This is a skill that must be trained over and
over and rehearsed repeatedly and against a wide variety of room and
situations. Just image a group of engineers and stewards trying something
like this during a 'hostage rescue' scenario, especially once surprise is
lost. The outcome is left to the imagination.

David
dlarson@blarg.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 06:21:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:21:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sHfY-0003IO-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

> John T. Kwon writes:
> > They already have something today that will zoom under your 
> > car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
> > even restart).
> > 
> > There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
> > a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
> > will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
> > Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
> > go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that difficult to 
build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate power 
battery.  
 
> Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In
> fact, gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing
> the thing will short out all of its electronics, not to mention other
> nearby electronics.

I've a few comments and questions here:

1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this 
shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be 
overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP? 

2) While military equipment wil be shielded, many worlds would 
likely strongly prefer if civilian weapons were not, since having a 
way to stop everyone's guns from working would be a godsend for 
cops (who would presumably also have shielded weapons).   

3) Even if you don't get the weapons, cutting off someone's comm 
will at least stop them from calling for backup.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:28:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:28:21 -0600
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV158oWo7w0nGEbJ8M00012276@hotmail.com>

> I have the feeling that an Imperial ability to commandeer
> your ship is a factor here.

Actually legal forms of "theft" such as comandeering and repossession didn't
enter my mind when I posted, but I can see that these issues are integral to
the question under discussion.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:02:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:02:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <DAV58nLJm2ZBNCogiwH0001b30b@hotmail.com>

As soon as the door begins opening they
> all shoot him.

PCs who went too far?  I'm shocked!<G>

Oddly enough this closely resembles the head-in-the-sand failure to realize
that actions have consequences that so often precedes crime in real life.

> If that same party tried that same stunt again, I'd have the guards at the
> fence shoot them with tranq and they'd wake up in jail.

Ahh, the Prison Campaign...

>there would be automatic
> security programs would have taken over to incapacitate the
> boarders.  Including, lighting, temperature controls, random and extreme
> variations in the artificial gravity grid (from weightless state to
> negative one gee to positive one gee then back to negative one gee, etc.),
> locking down all interior and exterior hatches, and even evacuating air
> from different spaces.  Each individual grav plate is separately
> controlled, and there are preprogrammed routines for turning off all grav
> plates in a corridor except one which is turned to maximum, and sequencing
> which plate is turned to maximum so as to pull someone in the corridor to
> one end or the other of it.  With sufficiently high-powered grav plates,
> someone can be thrown into an airlock, for instance.

A beautiful description of exactly what I meant by "Does the environmental
system become hostile?).  Nice!

>
> Insurance companies and mortgage companies insist upon certain security
> precautions for ships,

Big time!  I can envision insurance inspectors who make the rounds at
starports, conducting unannounced inspections on policyholders.

> If the 'Alien' from the movie boarded my ship, <snip> Subsequent
> events to be determined by the referee.  :->

I liked the movie, but I always thought the crewmembers of the Nostromo had
way too much trouble getting their act together.

>
> If thieves manage to take control of the ship enough to lift off from
> planet, they'll still have to deal with starport and orbital traffic
> control.  This will include knowing what identifying call sign they are
> assigned, filing a flight plan, and getting clearances.  A docked ship
will
> also have its security system linked to the starport, and if the security
> is triggered at any point, the starport security will immediately be
> alerted.  The thief will still have to somehow evade starport, COACC, and
> Imperial facilities, in most systems.  Think satellites, missiles, deep
> meson guns, and SDBs.

Agreed.  Clearly
Step 5. Getting Away
needs to be included.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:40:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:40:01 -0600
Subject: [TML] Stealing Starships - More
Message-ID: <DAV43jxq6pgtq33Z4WN00012b23@hotmail.com>

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I think Matt has raised good points about the dubious usefulness of =
biometric systems for applications that may have to accessed in vaccuum.

Voice prints may become an even more fussy issue, at least as far as the =
exterior hatch goes.  Not only suit radios - but also atmospheric =
compostion and pressure - can alter the human voice.

Many have raised the point - correctly, it seems to me - that there will =
be different levels of security in place for different environments or =
circumstances, even on the same ship.

The product of security and convenience is a constant.  In other words, =
the more security you have, the less convenience - and vice versa.  For =
this reason, if for no other, there will be different levels of =
security.

I can think of several different circumstances that would all cry out =
for different levels of security:

Grounded (not at a starport) with at least one trusted crewmember =
aboard.
Grounded and unoccupied.
Berthed (at a spaceport) with at least one trusted crewmember aboard.
Berthed and unoccupied.
Underway with no passengers.
Underway with passengers.=20

And since we've come to this juncture - what exactly does an anti-hijack =
program do?  Does it scan boarding passengers for weapons?  Monitor =
patterns of passenger movement for suspicious activity?  Compare facial =
features against a known database of offenders? =20

Is it completely passive? ("Sorry to interrupt Captain but five =
passengers are approaching the bridge with weapons and shaped charges")

Or do automated systems take an active role in defending the ship in the =
event of a hijack? (ZAP "Correction Captain.  Make that four =
passengers." ZAP "Sorry.  Three.")  Perhaps if the vessel is taken and =
the Captain doesn't enter an override command, the A-H program scrams =
the power plant.  Or maybe the ship is experimental, powerful, or =
otherwise very _interesting_ in which case the A-H program decides to =
scuttle in 30 minutes...

I _do_ love to give PCs a deadline.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com




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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I think Matt has raised good points about the =
dubious=20
usefulness of biometric systems for applications that may have to =
accessed in=20
vaccuum.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Voice prints may become an even more fussy issue, at =
least as=20
far as the exterior hatch goes.&nbsp; Not only suit radios - but also=20
atmospheric compostion and pressure&nbsp;- can alter the human=20
voice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Many have raised the point - correctly, it seems to =
me - that=20
there will be different levels of security in place for different =
environments=20
or circumstances, even on the same ship.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The product of security and convenience is a =
constant.&nbsp;=20
In other words, the more security you have, the less convenience - and =
vice=20
versa.&nbsp; For this reason, if for no other, there will be different =
levels of=20
security.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I can think of several different circumstances that =
would all=20
cry out for different levels of security:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Grounded (not at a starport) with at least one =
trusted=20
crewmember aboard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Grounded and unoccupied.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Berthed (at a spaceport) with at least one trusted =
crewmember=20
aboard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Berthed and unoccupied.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Underway with no passengers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Underway with passengers.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>And since we've come to this juncture - what exactly =
does an=20
anti-hijack program do?&nbsp; Does it scan boarding passengers for=20
weapons?&nbsp;&nbsp;Monitor patterns of passenger movement for =
suspicious=20
activity?&nbsp; Compare facial features against a known database of=20
offenders?&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Is it completely passive? ("Sorry to interrupt =
Captain but=20
five passengers are approaching the bridge with weapons and shaped=20
charges")</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Or&nbsp;do automated systems take an active role in =
defending=20
the ship in the event of a hijack? (ZAP "Correction Captain.&nbsp; Make=20
that&nbsp;four passengers." ZAP&nbsp;"Sorry.&nbsp; Three.")&nbsp; =
Perhaps if the=20
vessel is taken and the Captain doesn't enter an override command, the =
A-H=20
program scrams the power plant.&nbsp; Or maybe the ship is experimental, =

powerful, or otherwise very _interesting_ in which case the A-H program =
decides=20
to scuttle in 30 minutes...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I _do_ love to give PCs a deadline.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:texasredshift@hotmail.com">texasredshift@hotmail.com</A></=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 06:46:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:46:59 +0100
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <007701c1da12$42ee6230$8d9493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
> stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
> making MY windows rattle.
>

I want plasma grenades for that....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 06:58:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 01:58:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <003f01c1d9d7$50c1d1c0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402015737.02815a50@pop.wizard.net>

>That sounds like something that troopers would break.
>As in "if you leave three soldiers in the desert with an anvil, and come
>back later, the anvil will be broken. And they won't know how it happened."

I sometimes think the entire purpose of boot camp was to teach me to 
convincingly say, "The private don't know, sir."

ObTrav:  Umm.  I'd better stop posting on this thread because I can't think 
of one.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:15:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 02:15:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
In-Reply-To: <200204012252.DDN03437@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402020141.02817660@pop.wizard.net>

JT Kwon says:
>The problem I have with making corrections/changes/etc to the
>combat system of CT/Book 4 is that it is *very* easy to walk
>off the Cliffs of Complexity.
I agree.  What was most needed when MT came out (still is?) was for someone 
to take all CT rules and carefully synthesize them together into one volume 
to get rid of conflicts, ellipses, bits of char gen that improved one 
career but were still missing from older careers, etc.

That was chiefly what I was looking for in MT.  A revised and smoothly 
functioning CT.  Revised rule systems are all well and good, but I want a 
complete and coherent, nonbuggy, smoothly functioning rule set.

The next thing I was looking for was a lot more detailed world data in the 
Spinward Marches, and possibly noble and other governmental NPCs who run 
the Spinward Marches.  The adventures tended to gloss over a lot of 
stuff.  I realize there are different tastes there.  Some referees dislike 
having it all dictated to them.  I prefer having it all pregenerated for 
me, debugged and consistent with the rest of the universe, and using my own 
preferences and judgment to alter or throw out the stuff that suited me.

The other thing I was looking for was more cool science-fiction gizmos, 
preferably accompanied by really good gizmo illustrations.  Sometimes, one 
picture of ...a grav belt, let's say, is worth a few hundred well-chosen words.

Well before MT was issued, I tried taking Striker, Snapshot, the original 
three LBBs, Mercenary, etc. and reconciling all the weapon ranges and 
damage.  I gave it up for a lost cause.  I would have willingly parted with 
hard-earned cash to pay someone else (like GDW) to do it.

>I am trying to avoid using tables, except a few during
>character generation to come up with your initiative and your
>actions.

Mmmmm, I think well-designed tables with just the right accompanying 
titles, captions, and text blurbs can be extremely valuable.  I'm not shy 
about using them.  Excellent design, excellent writing, and excellent 
layout must all converge when it comes to tables in rule books.  But, 
ideally most of those extra chunks of reference and rule system will be 
modular, so the "nongearhead referee" can dispense with it and run the 
simple version quite easily and happily.  But let's not resurrect that 
debate, please.  Forget I ever mentioned.  This is not the rule-design 
droid you are looking for.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:13:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:13:16 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEFOCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
>
>Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
>stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
>making MY windows rattle.

No, I want the EMP grenade to shut off the cars whose xenon headlights are
blinding me, from behind, even when I've switched my rearview mirror to the
polarized position.  Hell, a parabolic mirror with a computer chip for
aiming would probably be enough to get them to back off.

The weapon I'm trying to figure out is an equalizer for pedestrians.
Anything that will actually stop or otherwise neutralize a moving vehicle
that is about to violate a crosswalk will have a danger space that includes
the pedestrian (like a LAW, M203, Panzerfaust, etc.) at typical engagement
ranges.  Anything safe for the pedestrian will not actually stop the vehicle
before impact -- the .44 magnum will shut down the engine, but the car will
keep on rolling.  Many weapons will neutralize the driver, but again, the
car will keep going.  It's a poser.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:22:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 23:22:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16sHfY-0003IO-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B8CE9C2B.34116%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 10:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that difficult to
> build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate power
> battery.  

I have yet to be convinced that such things will work, and be at all
effective.  Particularly as the  strength of burst will be inversely
proportional to the to the square of the distance.  Has anyone actually seen
a demonstration where this works?  It should be rather easy to test.

Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical martial
arts 'death touch'.
> 
> I've a few comments and questions here:
> 
> 1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this
> shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be
> overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP?

Gauss weapons won't need any complex and delicate circuitry if they're
anything like railguns.  I don't expect them to be vulnerable to EMP anymore
than a 1950s Chevy would be.
> 
> 2) While military equipment wil be shielded, many worlds would
> likely strongly prefer if civilian weapons were not, since having a
> way to stop everyone's guns from working would be a godsend for
> cops (who would presumably also have shielded weapons).
> 
> 3) Even if you don't get the weapons, cutting off someone's comm
> will at least stop them from calling for backup.

Common will certainly be more vulnerable, as will computers.  And the
government better tread lightly before using EMP.  Will hospitals be EMP
proof.  Patients with implants.  What about the impact on civil commerce?
Governments don't exist in vacuo. And count on sophisticated bad guys on
have stuff that's a good as what the cops and the military have, if not
better.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:23:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:23:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEFOCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>
>This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
>There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
>(or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
>sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
>example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.

Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's kind
of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not doing any more
jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the character
becomes motivated to take this one, last job.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:19:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:19:47 +0800
Subject: [TML] F14C Scorpion class light fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEIAEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Having apparently inspired people do do versions of this fighter for other
rules sets. It is about time I posted the original F14C Scorpion.

F14C SCORPION CLASS LIGHT FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION


The F14 Scorpion class of light fighter was at one time the most numerous
light fighter used by the Solomani Confederation. It was still in service in
large numbers with second line Solomani forces up to the final collapse, and
was used both as a subordinate craft on some larger starhips, and as a
planetary based fighter. The -C variant was the most numerous type, the
earlier -A and -B variants having been upgraded to the -C model. The earleri
versions mostly differed in the weaponry fitted.

General Data Displacement: 15 tons  Hull Armour: 40
Length: 15 meters  Volume: 210 cubic meters
Price: MCr22.494663  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 354.6512/318.5954 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 117Mw Fusion Power Plant (117Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (1.315Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 4 (18.25Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 40 , 2.28125 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 9

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 60,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 120,000km
Active EMS (4 hexes; 16.5Mw), 3xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 1xWorkstation

Armament Offensive: 1xTL13 50Mj Laser Lance (Loc: 1/4/5; Arcs 1; 13.889Mw;
No Crew), 4x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 4 7-ton missiles or recce drones

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
50Mj Laser Lance  4:1/5-17  8:1/3-9  16:1-4  32:1-2
-2 Difficulty Levels

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0118 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.5889 Mw)
Crew: 1 (1xManuever/Electronics/Gunner)
Crew Accommodations: 1xWorkstation
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 1.6 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 42 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.173 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  	Systems
1  	1-17:Ant  		1-10:Lance,11-20:Elec  	ELS-1H,
2-3  	Ant  			Elec  			LS-1H,
4-5  	Ant  			Hold  			LT-1H,
6-7  	Ant  			Hold  			Lance-1H,
8-9  	1-4:Ant  		Hold  			PP-1H,
10  	1-3:Hatch  		Qtrs  			All others-(1h),
11-13				Hold
14-15	1-11:Missile  	1-13:Grapple,14-20:Hold
16-17				1-14:Eng,15-20:Hold
20   				Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:19:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:19:49 +0800
Subject: [TML] RF14D Scorpion class light recon fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPEEIAEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

This is the recon version of my F14 Scorpion light fighter.

RF14D SCORPION CLASS LIGHT RECON FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION


The -D variant of the F14 Scorpion is the light reconnaisance version. The
major differenc between the -C and -D versions is the fitting of a more
capable sensor suite in the -D at the expense of most of the fighters
armament. A second workstation has also been provided to share the work load
of the fighter.

General Data Displacement: 15 tons  Hull Armour: 40
Length: 15 meters  Volume: 210 cubic meters
Price: MCr32.006997  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 315.6526/295.4188 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 106Mw Fusion Power Plant (106Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (0.1132Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 4 (16.25Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 42 , 2.03125 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 7

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 120,000km Passive EMS Folding Array (4 hexes; 0.15Mw), 60,000km
Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 300,000km Active EMS (10 hexes;
27.5Mw), TL13 Densitometer (0.9Mw), TL12 Neutrino Sensor (0.01Mw), 3xRunning
Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 2xWorkstations

Armament Offensive: 2x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 2 7-ton missiles or
recce drones

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0124 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.6191 Mw)
Crew: 2 (1xElectronics, 1xManuever/Gunner)
Crew Accommodations: 2xWorkstations
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 0.2 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 42 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.03125 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  	Surface Hits  		Internal Explosion  		Systems
1-5  		Ant  				Elec  				ELS-1H,
6-7  		Ant  				1:Qtrs,2-11:Elec,12-20:Hold  	LS-1H,
8-9,11-13  	Ant  				Hold  				PP-1H,
10  		1-3:Hatch,4-20:Ant  	Qtrs  				AEMS-(2h),
14-15  	1-5:Missile,6-20:Ant  	1-7:Grapple,8-20:Hold  		Neutrino-(2h),
16-17  	1-2:Ant  			1-15:Eng,16-20:Hold  		All others-(1h)
18-19   					1-15:Eng,16-20:Hold
20   						Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 03:34:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Another Power Source For FF&S2?
In-Reply-To: <3CA92F7C.B45F42C3@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402033354.00a72bf0@pop.wizard.net>

John Groth says:
>Should we add chemoelectric potatoes as a power plant option in FF&S2?

Renewable energy that helps out with life support systems.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:31:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:31:01 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> This has driven me to tinker with starship costs quite a lot, trying
> to reduce their value by orders of magnitude.  I still haven't found
> a solution that seems properly balanced.

Do what I did in my GURPS game: make FTL drives cost comparable to
maneuver drives, and let them have a second- (or tenth-) hand ship.
This method should be applicable to Traveller; let's see...


Yes, okay.  If Jump-2 engines for the minimum 100 dton ship cost 1 MCr
instead of 10 MCr, then you can build a Jump-2 starship new for about
2.5 MCr.  Such a design uses primarily water tanks with a small fuel
processor to supplement much smaller LHyd tanks (the minimum needed to
initiate jump, whatever that is IYTU), and downgrades the sensors and
some other nonessential (but expensive) electronics.  With an
acceleration capability of 0.2G loaded, it won't ever land on a planet
but it can carry a shuttle that does.  It will also take about 10
hours to reach a 100D limit.  Of course it has no weapons -- even a
single laser costs a significant proportion of the total value.

If such a ship is in very poor but still serviceable condition, it
might be worth 250 kCr.  Valuable, but hardly an amount you could
retire to an island paradise in luxury for the rest of your life.
Especially if it is divided among 6 PCs :)


A probably unintentional side-effect of having very expensive jump
engines is that a starship owner can afford everything else to be
nearly top-of-the-line without greatly increasing the overall cost.
Slashing jump drive costs means that other cost-saving measures
actually become worthwhile, which (IMO) makes for much more
interesting design choices in the game.

Of course cutting jump drive costs by an order of magnitude means that
interstellar freight costs will be reduced, but not by an order of
magnitude.  Operating costs (crew, port fees, administration overhead,
maintenance) become the dominant factor rather than interest on the
mortgage.  I think I worked out a few years ago that the cost of jump
systems makes up about 60-70% of average freight costs (where are
these things when I need them), so the cost of freight would probably
halve.

There is yet another reason why I might recommend this approach.  If
low-acceleration unarmed merchant ships that have poor sensors and
can't land are common, it makes an excellent excuse for significantly
increased piracy levels around backwater worlds.  Not to mention the
fact that pirates can risk a much smaller monetary investment for
cargo that is still just as valuable as in the "expensive drives"
case.

;^>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:43:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 03:43:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>
References: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402033956.00a76170@pop.wizard.net>

Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...

Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug, 
your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead 
GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is 
despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode of 
eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.

--Laning, Canoneer of God


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:06:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:06:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <003d01c1d9e9$a2218e40$f6b18b90@computer>
References: <20020401200104.BCEA627A48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402034537.00a74010@pop.wizard.net>

Alan Bradley quotes me then asks:
> > From: laning
> > Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no
> > scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the
> > fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world
> > in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL 13
> > COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much less
> > likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.
>
>One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?

Obvious.  Getting into trouble.  The ISS isn't silly enough to send lone 
scouts to planets.  It sends contact teams, survey teams, whatever, but in 
teams.  Um, perhaps his ship is suffering from technical problems and it's 
a forced landing.  He's looking for local help resolving the problem.

And thereby hangs at least a couple of different adventure seeds.  The 
aging ex-scout in a starport bar whose partner went jump mad, did something 
to the nav controls and caused a misjump then committed suicide.  He was 
forced to land on a world whose exact location he was unsure of to seek 
help, the seemingly primitive local chirpers gathered around his ship, then 
he just _knew_ somehow that the ship was fixed.  He reboarded it, it worked 
fine.  Too fine!  It used fuel at one one-hundredth of the normal 
rate!  And he couldn't figure out how or why.  He also just _knew_ what nav 
settings to use to jump back to civilization and didn't think to question 
that, just did it.  When he got back to an ISS base, they told him the 
incident never happened and took the ship away "for repairs".  He was 
abruptly transferred to a training command as an instructor, where they 
spent about one month debriefing him on his experience in great detail.  He 
can't say exactly where that planet was, but he thinks he might remember 
the nav settings he used to jump away from it, and he knows where that jump 
ended.

Or.  Your small scout vessel has just had its fuel purifier go bad and 
you've landed on a TL 6 planet that you were only supposed to orbit.  You 
need to negotiate with the locals for refined fuel.  If you meet with their 
scientists you think you can arrange for them to refine what you need.  But 
you have to get past their military and politicians first.  Several of whom 
think the smart thing to do with an alien spaceship is keep it for 
themselves, but it's locked.  You're starting to think your only chance of 
staying alive for now is to convince them they cannot get inside the ship 
without your help.  Klaatu barada nictu.

Or.  Your tramp trader calls on an out of the way system in hopes of 
selling some chameleon cloth or other gewgaws to the natives, and maybe 
picking up some unique local handiworks that you can sell to archeologists 
when you return to civilization.  Hey, an independent business soph has to 
be creative to stay ahead of the big corporate competition.  So you do a 
few orbital passes while you make a survey.  Never land blindly, not if you 
want to live a long time in this business.  There's a ship down there in 
the jungle.  You get a close up photo image.  It's practically overgrown 
with jungle!  Not enough IR signature to be generating any heat 
internally.  No beacons.  Doesn't respond to any radio hails.  You send the 
ship's boat to investigate.  It's a scout ship, a model that hasn't been in 
common use for about fifteen Imperial years.  There are two skeletons on 
the bridge, visible through the viewport.  If you manage to get past the 
locked outer airlock door,  it will have to be by force.  That's when you 
find more skeletons in the interior corridor adjacent to the 
airlock.  Visible through the viewport again.  If you manage to force your 
way past the inner airlock door, that's when the ship begins to power up 
and various antihijack programs kick in.  You're starting to think you know 
how the skeletons next to the airlock got to be that way.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:20:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:20:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>
References: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>

Anthony Jackson quoted then wrote:
>Matthew Bond writes:
> > One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's
> > at doorlocks etc...
> >
> > How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> > Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior
> > is exposed to Vacuum?
>
>How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use?
>There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
>'security while everyone is away'.

I agree with Matt Bond about avoiding biometrics.

There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example.  Paying 
passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them through the 
passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger areas of the ship.  Each 
keycard is unique to each passenger, and so the same card gets them into 
their own private cabin.  Crew will have similar cards, that give them more 
freedom, and exactly how much and which greater freedoms would depend on 
the crew member's billet.  In a hijack situation, the captain or bridge 
watch officer uses a much higher level of security access to lock down all 
passenger hatchways, among various other security measures  This overrides 
the passenger keycards, of course, and limits crewmember keycards according 
to the specific alert situation.  The higher levels of access can't require 
a physical key because that might not be possible in some emergency 
scenarios.  Thus, it requires more elaborate and closely guarded usernames 
and passwords.

Voice print and/or retina scan _might_ be required for confirmation, but 
only as an additional measure.  Voiceprints are vulnerable to spoofing with 
recordings or even computer-synthesized voices.  Retina scans would only be 
desirable if they can be read through a vacc suit faceplate.  And they 
might be subject to spoofing, as well.  So even these two biometrics would 
probably be ignored by skilled designers of most ship security systems.

The biggest vulnerability is if someone gains knowledge of the captain's 
username and password.  That's why there's an owner's username and password 
that can override even the captain's access level.  In situations where law 
enforcement needs it, they can usually get it from the owner.  Sufficiently 
clever and ruthless hijackers might be able to do so, also.  That would be 
bad.  What provisions can we make for the captain and crew to neutralize 
hijackers who had done that?  Weapons and vacc suits and that's about 
it?  They should start out with physical possession of the bridge and 
engineering, so the hijackers would still have a fight on their hands 
before being able to fly the ship.  Maybe there should be lots of panic 
buttons around the ship.  Break glass and pull handle to start the 
"Emergency, I am being hijacked" beacon.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:29:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
References: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402042211.00a7a020@pop.wizard.net>

Matt Bond asks:
>Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
>kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
>Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Okay, I guess the security override system is composed of very tiny 
computerized access points, networked together.  They normally act as dumb 
workstations for talking to the ship's computer, but in case of network or 
computer problems they can act independent of the ship's computer to let 
stranded people with proper username and password enter the ship safely.

This creates a couple of vulnerabilities, but that is accepted in the name 
of user safety.  Now, would be hijackers only have to spoof the tiny dumb 
workstation computer at one of the access points if they want to board the 
ship.  The workstation knows all the usernames and passwords, although even 
a dumb workstation can be pretty tough to crack heavily encrypted data like 
that.  The hijackers could bring along some smart computer of their own to 
try to crack it.  They could eavesdrop on network traffic between the 
workstation and the ship's computer and crack the username and password 
that way.

Therefore, usernames and passwords are rotated frequently, and the network 
link between the workstation and ship's computer is fiber optic.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:40:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:40:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV58nLJm2ZBNCogiwH0001b30b@hotmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402043102.0280d0f0@pop.wizard.net>

Bill Scheets aka Tex says:
>Agreed.  Clearly
>Step 5. Getting Away
>needs to be included.

And Step 6.  Continuing To Get Away With It The Rest Of Their 
Lives.  Staying in Imperial space, for instance, and having to deal with 
not only transponder IDs, but all kinds of ship's papers and records, 
personal IDs, and all this checked against......databases.

I'm thinking that in Zhodani space, the thieves just have to fool the 
telepathic Thought Police who make routine boarding inspections of all 
docked ships.  And everyone entering the starport has to get past 
telepathic Thought Police at checkpoints.  It's going to be awfully hard to 
get away with this crime there.  But even with this security, the Zhodani 
will probably employ databases and various kinds of ID for ships, ships 
crews, major starship components, and cargos.  As well as the usual logs, 
flight plans, maintenance records, safety inspections, more thorough 
inspections during annual maintenance, yatta yatta yatta.

There's a reason that Vargr space is as disorganized as Traveller indicates 
it is at the governmental level.  Much easier for piracy and other such 
activities in or near Vargr space.  Very convenient for many 
campaigns.  And perhaps we've discovered a way to reconcile the piracy+ 
crowd with the piracy- crowd.  Piracy can be viable, but only in regions 
like the Vargr Extents and other regions of space where governmental 
authority only has a short reach.  Which really just rephrases what some of 
us have been saying for a long time.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:57:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:57:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Stealing Starships - More
In-Reply-To: <DAV43jxq6pgtq33Z4WN00012b23@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402044404.0280ec90@pop.wizard.net>

>And since we've come to this juncture - what exactly does an anti-hijack 
>program do?  Does it scan boarding passengers for weapons?  Monitor 
>patterns of passenger movement for suspicious activity?  Compare facial 
>features against a known database of offenders?
>
>Is it completely passive? ("Sorry to interrupt Captain but five passengers 
>are approaching the bridge with weapons and shaped charges")
>
>Or do automated systems take an active role in defending the ship in the 
>event of a hijack? (ZAP "Correction Captain.  Make that four passengers." 
>ZAP "Sorry.  Three.")  Perhaps if the vessel is taken and the Captain 
>doesn't enter an override command, the A-H program scrams the power 
>plant.  Or maybe the ship is experimental, powerful, or otherwise very 
>_interesting_ in which case the A-H program decides to scuttle in 30 minutes...

Assuming you've paid for a real, live Antihijack program, then the answer 
is it will do any and all combinations of the above, plus a lot of other 
things besides.  You just go to any console that lets you access the user 
interface for your Antihijack program and select any of a number of popular 
default configurations.  Then start customizing it as you desire.  Assuming 
your username and password is authorized.  A significant part of 
configuring its settings is to determine exactly what access and overrides 
each username is granted.  Probably the vendor who sold it to you had an 
installation consultant visit and spend an hour or three until you had at 
least one crew member comfortable with it.  Its capabilities have evolved 
for literally centuries and there are few situations that have not been 
thought of.  The user interface has evolved for a similar period of time 
and is surprisingly intuitive and easy to use.

There would be various hardware extras that you may or may not want to 
install.  You want a flamethrower pointed down the airlock corridor and 
controllable via the Antihijack program?  No problem, we can have it 
delivered and installed in one to three days.  That'll run you extra for 
the hardware, plus an additional installation fee for configuring it 
properly with the software.  Only available where law level permits.  You 
are responsible for showing our salesman all required government permits 
before the sale can be final.  You should check with your liability insurer 
before getting any fixed interior weaponry as it may void your policy or 
require a new rider.  You should also be warned that such riders tend to be 
extremely expensive.  Manufacturer and vendor are in no way liable for 
injuries, death, or property damaged which might involve said flamerthrower.

When a really cheap starship costs tens of millions and most starship types 
cost hundreds of millions, there will be pretty elaborate and effective 
layers of security to prevent loss.  And software applications will have 
been evolved and debugged for hundreds of years, which is a way of thinking 
that most of us on the TML need to consciously force ourselves into because 
we're used to all software being relatively new, somewhat unstable, usually 
a bastard of a user interface, never the same two years in a row, etc.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 10:02:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 05:02:30 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer>
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402045857.02801d60@pop.wizard.net>

Alan Bradley, who has been there and has the tee shirt to prove it, says:
>"Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got a
>harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
>schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a fusion
>reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own army.
>What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania thinks he
>has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us independent
>enclaves to make sure he doesn't."

Perfect, Chairman Laning and his Lanite citizens should find King Bradley 
to be an excellent neighbor and ally.  You're invited to drop over anytime 
for tropical drinks on the veranda.  The dancing girls put on a fine show 
around the bonfire after midnight, it's always a big hit with guests.  Just 
be sure to let us know before heading over, so we can make sure the air 
defense system doesn't do anything rash to your air rafts.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 10:29:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 05:29:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices [was Re: Living...on an
 Airplane]
In-Reply-To: <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>

Tim Little responded to my quest for much cheaper starships with very 
interesting thoughts.  I've had mostly the same ideas, but yours are better 
organized and developed, Tim.  Thanks much.  :->

The two big differences for me would be reducing the overall cost by at 
least two or even three orders of magnitude, and trying to do it so that 
there's still a huge price jump going from nonstarship to starship.

In other words, reduce hull, computer, maneuver, and power plant costs by 
probably two orders of magnitude but jump drives by only one.  Which still 
doesn't work out quite as tidily as I'd like.

I would like it if you could commission say a really nice yacht for 3 
megacredits or less.  Which is still a huge sum of money.  Weaponry and 
shield costs would remain unmodified.  Or a 200-ton free trader for maybe 
just under 1 megacredit, built new.  I don't want to open the rule books 
right now to run the numbers because I'm already way overdue to hit the 
rack and sleep.

One of the problems with the above approach is anyone with good credit and 
a good business plan could build jump-5 or jump-6 ships and they would be 
too common.  Which got me to wondering if I couldn't make the cost for jump 
drives go up proportional to the square of the jump number.  Which in turn 
got to me wondering if it would be a good idea to have the same type of 
relationship for power plants and maneuver drives.  Probably yes to jump 
drives and no to the others.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 10:30:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:30:26 +1200
Subject: [TML] Re: Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331112145.025208a0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020331073926.009f9080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CAA3102.30051.BC0A20@localhost>

On 31 Mar 2002, at 11:29, laning wrote:

> This has led me to wonder if Orthodox Jews ever make it off the planet 
> Earth in the canonical Traveller universe.  Perhaps in low 
> berths?  Probably not.  Would the opportunity to actually meet these 
> foreign people called Orthodox Jews be a tourist attraction when planning 
> to travel to Terra?

To be honest, I don't think Jews (of any ilk) would be all that 
common in the Traveller Universe. There are under 15 million Jews 
worldwide right now (13.6 IIRC) and the faith doesn't encourage 
conversion. I'd say 100 million tops for 1100 Imperial (probably far 
less), mostly clustered on and around Terra. The vast majority of 
Imperial citizens have probably never heard of them. However, I 
would say that they will still be around.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 11:28:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:28:20 +1200
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAA3E94.13432.F10D0B@localhost>

On 1 Apr 2002, at 17:25, John T. Kwon wrote:

> You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles, 
> but they don't have an air force anymore.

We don't actually need an airforce, the 1,800 km moat serves well 
enough unless you're going to bring along an aircraft carrier. And if 
you can bring along an aircraft carrier, we couldn't have stopped 
you anyway.

Vague ObTrav: Think of all the thousands of low to mid population 
worlds. They have no hope of stopping a half serious assault, so 
how are their defence forces structured? A small professional force 
sufficent to deal with casual raiders and to act as a cadre for a 
guerilla resistance until someone comes to their rescue. One to 
three battalions of mobile ground troops and two or three heavy 
fighters should be sufficent.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 11:38:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:38:14 +1200
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185058.00a65e80@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEIGHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

laning wrote :
> JT Kwon wrote:
> >Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
> >
> >You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles,
> >but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up
> >with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right
> >positions in government for the die hards, it might work.
>
> The worst part is it's probably the New Zealanders on
> the list who are laughing the hardest at that.  :->

I thought we wuz included in the "right positions in government
for the die hards" bit ?

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 11:38:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:38:13 +1200
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEIGHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

John Kwon writes
>(Megan Robertson)  says
> >Subject: Re: [TML] room clearing
> >
> >The British Army method is: -
> >
<snip>
> Yes, that's very similar to what was SOP just prior to the
> last technique.  What you describe above is what is known as
> Battle Drill #6.

One assumes all the room clearing techniques being discussed are
for bunkers or concrete buildings of better than average
construction against a well-motivated enemy.

To clear a modern apartment, office or hotel room, stand in the
hallway outside, and spray the room(s) with automatic fire,
remembering to cover the entire wall and especially remembering
to fire at ground level a few times.

Then push the wall over.

Just remember that the wall isn't going to give _you_ any cover
when you start firing either.
<grin>

Oh, and remember to fire in to the air outside the building a few
times first. Based on my observations of most troops and the
majority of civilians, that'll mean they'll be standing in the
windows, looking for where the shots came from.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:02:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:02:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIADJAA.tml@downport.com>

I'm doing some research for a TAS supplement and could use some help with
references. The supplement will be CT, but I'd like to read up on any
reference, in any version, that mentions the TAS.

If you'd like to reply in the thread on the TAS-Net web boards, here is the
thread URL: http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=38. I'll get them all
into the thread, eventually.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
"In conclusion, remember that Traveller
  is a game, and that it goes differently
    for everyone who plays. Bon voyage!"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:14:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:14:25 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <20020402064409.B8250279FA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c1da40$0a82f040$2c5d8690@computer>

> From: JR Holmes 
> This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
> There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
> (or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
> sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
> example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.
> 
> =46rom a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become part
> of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
> destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
> becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.

You evil naughty man...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:12:36 +1000
Subject: [TML] RE: Room Clearing
Message-ID: <001e01c1da40$09e43f40$2c5d8690@computer>

> From: "David & Kristin Larson"
> Flash-bangs are in relatively common use (at least I've had no problem
> getting them from the ASP).

Just last week one of the veterans at work was showing us the scars he got
from a flash-bang that went off too close to him.

He and some other army guys were training with a bunch of cops  (Tactical
Response Group - SWAT types), when one of the cops rolled a flash-bang the
wrong way.  Result:  small but interesting shrapnel wounds.  My friend was
actually behind the guy that took the brunt of the bang, but the grenade had
rolled between his feet, and bounced off a wall before going off.

All of this was apparently rather embarrassing to the people responsible for
organising the exercise.  Fortunately nobody was seriously injured, so their
butts weren't kicked too hard.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:15:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:15:22 GMT
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net> <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3ca99b9a.4755858@post.demon.co.uk>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:

>> >I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air
>force.
>>
(snip)
>
>Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns =
are
>very handy for burglars...

I want an L5 space station, then I can not only declare independence,
but address communications to world leaders as "foolish
Earth-beings!".

And if anybody objects, well, I'm at the top of the gravity well and
there are lots of rocks in space...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 13:12:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:12:18 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net> <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <3ca99b9a.4755858@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <002301c1da48$17342b80$d99593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
>Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are
>very handy for burglars...

I want an L5 space station, then I can not only declare independence,
but address communications to world leaders as "foolish
Earth-beings!".

And if anybody objects, well, I'm at the top of the gravity well and
there are lots of rocks in space...

Excellent! Though sitting out on the Veranda on an evening is a bit
chilly....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:07:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 06:07:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020402140743.71732.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Matthew Bond <mattgbond@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA
> while in space to do some
> kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my
> Airlocks Starport Locking
> Mechanism. How do I get back in?

I don't think it is even that necessary to contrive
the possibility.  I don't think that every port of
call on a vaccuum world is going to pressurize the
landing area.  They may have special vehicles to get
you from your ship to the StarPort, but if they don't,
its into the vacc suit.  Then how do you get back into
your ship?


Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:16:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:16:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <03b401c1da51$0d6c92f0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

I've often through of a bass seeking missle for just such an occasion

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 6:54 PM
Subject: RE: [TML] handy device


> Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
> stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
> making MY windows rattle.
>
> Jesse
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:40 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] handy device
>
>
> They already have something today that will zoom under your
> car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
> even restart).
>
> There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
> a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
> will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
> Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
> go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).
>
> It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
> have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
> left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.
>
> Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:22:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:22:58 EST
Subject: [TML] Malorn Union and Winston Democracy
Message-ID: <a2.235606a8.29db18c2@aol.com>

Can anyone tell me anything about these two pocket states beyond
their names and allegiance codes?

I'm reworking Aldebaran sector for an upcoming GURPS Traveller book.
I need to know how seriously I need to consider leaving these two states
in existence :-). Clearly they aren't canonical in the strict sense of the
word, but if any fans are fond of them I can't be too cavalier about
erasing them. . .

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:40:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 00:40:39 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9C2E7.20705@gmx.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>"MJ Dougherty" says
>
>>I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my 
>>own air force.
>>
>
>Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
>
>You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles, 
>but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up 
>with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right 
>positions in government for the die hards, it might work.
>
Don't laugh... this may have already happened.
-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:34:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:34:38 +0800
Subject: [TML] F17 Starfire class light fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEIFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Just when you thought it was safe, another fighter.

F17 STARFIRE CLASS LIGHT FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION



The F17 Starfire class light fighter was designed at the same time as the
F16 Scimitar class light fighter, with which it shares many components. Not
as fast as the Scimitar, having a maneuver drive capable of 4G compared to
the Scimitars 5G, the Starfire does carry a somewhat heavier armament in the
form of two 50-Mj Laser Lances compared to the Scimitars single.

General Data Displacement: 20 tons  Hull Armour: 50
Length: 16 meters  Volume: 280 cubic meters
Price: MCr25.172723  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 471.972/434.9299 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 151Mw Fusion Power Plant (75.5Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (0.2232Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 4 (23.5Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 41.6 , 2.9375 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 12

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 60,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 120,000km
Active EMS (4 hexes; 16.5Mw), 3xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 2xWorkstations

Armament Offensive: 2xTL13 50Mj Laser Lances (Loc: 2/3; Arcs 1; Loc: 18/19;
Arcs: 5; 13.889Mw each; No Crew), 4x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 4 7-ton
missiles or recce drones

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
50Mj Laser Lance  4:1/5-17  8:1/3-9  16:1-4  32:1-2
-2 Difficulty Levels

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0157 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.7828 Mw)
Crew: 2 (1xManuever/Electronics/Gunner, 1xGunner)
Crew Accommodations: 2xWorkstations
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 0.4 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 56 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.182 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  		Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  	Systems
1  			Ant  			Elec  			LS-2H,
2-3  			1-18:Ant  		1-11:Lance,12-20:Elec  	PP-2H,
4-5  			1-19:Ant  		1-7:Elec,8-20:Hold  	ELS-1H,
6-7  			1-19:Ant  		1:Qtrs,2-20:Hold  	Lance-1H,
8-9,11-13   				Hold  			MD-(2h),
10  			1-2:Hatch  		Qtrs  			All others-(1h),
14-15  		1-10:Missile  	1-10:Grapple,11-14:Eng,15-20:Hold
16-17   					Eng
18-19   					1-11:Lance,12-20:Eng
20   						Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:34:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:34:35 +0800
Subject: [TML] F16 Scimitar class light fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEIFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

F16 SCIMITAR CLASS LIGHT FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION



The Scimitar class light fighter was in widespread service with Solomani
forces, especially second line units, at the start of the Second Solomani
Rim War. As the war progressed Scimitars were gradually pushed into first
line units because of losses of more advanced types.

Somewhat larger than the F14 Scorpion they could not use the launch tubes on
Consort class escort carriers, they were faster than the Scorpions, boasting
a 5G capability.

General Data Displacement: 20 tons  Hull Armour: 60
Length: 16 meters  Volume: 280 cubic meters
Price: MCr25.64925  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 487.4876/456.9102 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 166Mw Fusion Power Plant (83Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (1.1585Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 5 (24.4Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 43 , 3.05 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 11

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 60,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 120,000km
Active EMS (4 hexes; 16.5Mw), 3xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 2xWorkstations

Armament Offensive: 1xTL13 50Mj Laser Lance (Loc: 2/3; Arcs 1; 13.889Mw; No
Crew), 3x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 3 7-ton missiles or recce drones

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
50Mj Laser Lance  4:1/5-17  8:1/3-9  16:1-4  32:1-2
-2 Difficulty Levels

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0148 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.7374 Mw)
Crew: 2 (1xManuever/Electronics, 1xGunner)
Crew Accommodations: 2xWorkstations
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 0.3 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 56 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.342 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  		Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  	Systems
1  			Ant  			Elec  			LS-2H,
2-3  			1-18:Ant  		1-11:Lance,12-20:Elec  	PP-2H,
4-5  			1-19:Ant  		1-7:Elec,8-20:Hold  	ELS-1H,
6-7  			1-19:Ant  		1-2:Qtrs,3-20:Hold  	Lance-1H,
8-9,12-13   				Hold  			MD-(2h),
10  			1-2:Hatch  		Qtrs  			All others-(1h)
11,14-15  		1-5:Missile  	1-5:Grapple,6-20:Hold
16-19   					1-13:Grapple,14-20:Hold
16-19   					1-19:Eng,20:Hold
20   						Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:03:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 08:03:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402033956.00a76170@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>
 <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402080234.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>

At 03:43 AM 4/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
>>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...
>
>Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug, 
>your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead 
>GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is 
>despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode 
>of eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.
>
>--Laning, Canoneer of God

I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.

(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...

100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.


--

Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:05:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:05:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

LOL!!!  That's the other one that my roomies and I thought of as well!  That, and "Too-stupid-to-live" ortillery ;D

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Pratt [mailto:cdpratt@gatecom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 6:17 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] handy device


I've often through of a bass seeking missle for just such an occasion

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:09:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:09:42 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>
 <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020402080234.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9D7C6.8D7E0D48@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 03:43 AM 4/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
> >>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...
> >
> >Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug,
> >your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead
> >GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is
> >despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode
> >of eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.
> >
> >--Laning, Canoneer of God
> 
> I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
> 
> (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> 
> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

All right, I'll take that challenge...

<<paraphrase spoiler space>>












<<paraphrase spoiler space ends>>

Galileo's "Yet it still moves."

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:23:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:23:29 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [TML] [ANNOUNCEMENT] Frontiers PBeM Campaign
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204021821020.168484-100000@svati>

Hi all,

  I'm setting up a PBeM in the Spinward Marches/Trojan Reaches
sectors and are looking for some interested players. More
info can be found by going to the PBeM section on
www.travellercentral.com

Cheers
Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:43:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:43:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] [ANNOUNCEMENT] Frontiers PBeM Campaign
Message-ID: <OF198476A5.770671F6-ON85256B8F.005B7FB4@pheaa.org>








<snip>
  I'm setting up a PBeM in the Spinward Marches/Trojan Reaches
sectors and are looking for some interested players.
</snip>

I would like to play. i cant check traveller central from work so could you
let me know what version of traveller you will be using? will the gm be
making Pre-generated chars? if not can we request a pre generated char?

thanks

Bill






From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:04:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:04:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] room clearing
References: <200203312207.DBP01462@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401224917.01b08448@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3CA9E49E.50806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:

> Flash bangs are also quite dangerous in confined spaces.  The big 
> difference between that and fragmentation grenade is lack of 
> fragmentation in the Flashbang.  You still have about the same amount of 
> explosive material.

Yep, and they're powerful, too. There was a police raid on a house a 
good 90-100 yards away from our house. They tossed a fb in the front 
door of the place. The boom rattled the windows in OUR house, and was 
loud enough, I started looking for which next-door neighbor's furnace 
exploded.

Moreover, the windows were rattled hard on the side of our house *away* 
from the raid, which had the bulk of three houses between us and the 
explosion.

I can't imagine what it was like *inside* that room.
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:04:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:04:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
Message-ID: <200204021704.DEX06493@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>
>(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
>
>100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
>
galileo
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:11:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:11:27 +0200
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIADJAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIADJAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020402191127.6b66c4f3.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Swordy wrote:
> I'm doing some research for a TAS supplement and could use some help
with
> references. The supplement will be CT, but I'd like to read up on any
> reference, in any version, that mentions the TAS.
> 
> If you'd like to reply in the thread on the TAS-Net web boards, here is
the
> thread URL: http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=38. I'll get them
all
> into the thread, eventually.

Wouldn't this make for an excellent GT supplement as well? That way, it
might even see print...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:14:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16sHfY-0003IO-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017767692.2225.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
>
> 1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this 
> shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be 
> overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP? 

The shielding necessary to protect a gauss rifle from its own operation will
shield from levels of EMP that aren't lethal to humans at short range.
> 
> 2) While military equipment wil be shielded, many worlds would 
> likely strongly prefer if civilian weapons were not, since having a 
> way to stop everyone's guns from working would be a godsend for 
> cops (who would presumably also have shielded weapons).  

And, for various reasons, unshielded weapons will be very unpopular, since EMP
devices are nowhere difficult enough to build for only the cops to have them. 
Any world with a law level high enough to want all weapons to be unshielded
probably also has a law level high enough not to permit civilian ownership of
gauss or energy weapons, and a CPR gun with non-electronic sights is immune to
EMP at levels that won't kill humans. 
> 
> 3) Even if you don't get the weapons, cutting off someone's comm 
> will at least stop them from calling for backup.

True, though lasercomms and burst transmitters can be shielded fairly easily. 
A conventional radio would be hard to shield.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:17:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:17:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017767869.7543.ajackson@ping>

Matthew Bond writes:

> Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
> kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
> Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Ok, we're talking once in a hundred year scale accidents here, so we don't
worry about it.  However, most likely the scout left the door open, making the
issue moot.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:26:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:26 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <memo.187211@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3CA9E49E.50806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Greetings dear hearts.

I've been on the receiving end of a flash-bang, fortunately while standing 
outside in the dark, and that's quite enough, thank you!

I couldn't see a thing for quite some time.

The odd thing was, I issued a challenge in what to me was just a random 
direction, and managed to draw a bead on the fellow who chucked it. I 
never did let on to him that I hadn't somehow spotted him... just adds to 
the legend :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:28:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:28:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
Message-ID: <20020402.093118.-186857.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


> Douglas Berry says
> >
> >(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> >
> >100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
> >
>  

"We look for things to make us go" ??? ST:TNG

Turokan

.--.   ...       .----   .----   -....   ---...   ----.       ..      
.--   ..   .-..   .-..       .--   .-   .-..   -.-       -...   .   ..-. 
 ---   .-.   .       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..       ..  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   .-   -.   -..       ---   ..-.       -
  ....   .       .-..   ..   ...-   ..   -.   --.   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:40:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:40:40 +0200
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
References: <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020402194040.7979a578.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Of course all the Major races evolved on Earthlike worlds... Its had to
> develop a spacefaring civilisation then there is a kilometres thick ice
> sheet between you and the stars (not that you'd even know they
existed...)

That is a point I hadn't thought of...

*sound of head hitting table repeatedly*

Combined with Doug's idea of psionic lifeforms, this might be really
interesting.

Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world under
the ice.

Off course, the Zhodani might be aware of such a race (since they have
both better defense against psionics and use robots heavily)...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:40:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Classic Traveller)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:40:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <20020402191127.6b66c4f3.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>

When it is completed I will publish it in PDF. That way it will definitely
see print "see print", if it is worth the paper to print it on ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Jens Rydholm

Swordy wrote:
> I'm doing some research for a TAS supplement and could use some help with
> references. The supplement will be CT, but I'd like to read up on any
> reference, in any version, that mentions the TAS.
>
> If you'd like to reply in the thread on the TAS-Net web boards, here is
the
> thread URL: http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=38. I'll get them
all
> into the thread, eventually.

Wouldn't this make for an excellent GT supplement as well? That way, it
might even see print...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:43:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:43:36 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <18.1cd71567.29db47c8@aol.com>

--part1_18.1cd71567.29db47c8_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 02/04/02 02:10:20 GMT Daylight Time, 
mattgbond@ntlworld.com writes:


> One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at
> doorlocks etc...
> 
> How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior 
> is
> exposed to Vacuum?
> 
> Not many...
> 
> Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by
> being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a 
> recording
> being played over radio)
> 
> I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices
> relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad 
> ID
> number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the
> card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you
> have access to your account.
> 
> After all, you want security to stop casual access to secure areas, but not
> so secure that it inhibits routine or emergency access.
> 
> Matt
> 

Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs 
starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're 
borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.

The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not to 
let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can probably 
see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information than 
you wish to give out.

If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems for 
opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch 
then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to a 
specialist lock-smith.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_18.1cd71567.29db47c8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 02:10:20 GMT Daylight Time, mattgbond@ntlworld.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at<BR>
doorlocks etc...<BR>
<BR>
How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit<BR>
Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior is<BR>
exposed to Vacuum?<BR>
<BR>
Not many...<BR>
<BR>
Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by<BR>
being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a recording<BR>
being played over radio)<BR>
<BR>
I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices<BR>
relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad ID<BR>
number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the<BR>
card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you<BR>
have access to your account.<BR>
<BR>
After all, you want security to stop casual access to secure areas, but not<BR>
so secure that it inhibits routine or emergency access.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.<BR>
<BR>
The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not to let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can probably see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information than you wish to give out.<BR>
<BR>
If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems for opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to a specialist lock-smith.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_18.1cd71567.29db47c8_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:46:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:46:30 EST
Subject: [TML] Questions, questions
Message-ID: <102.1302b0d5.29db4876@aol.com>

1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to 
remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible

2) Can Hivers hold their breath?

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:51:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:51:40 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
> First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might
be.
> Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in
the
> game universe are - IMO - dubious.

My main aim isn't to recreate the original Traveller sequence. If I'd
wanted that, I'd just use it instead of First In  ;-)

However, I want roughly the same spread of intelligent races as in typical
SF, ie the most common environment for sentinent life to evolve in is on
Earthlike worlds.

I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might look
under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary after a
while.

While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
function using radically different biochemistries?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:11:03 -0800
Subject: [TML] Traveller PBeMs
Message-ID: <B8CF3437.341C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Just checking back with everyone on the list.

If you are running a Traveller PBeM and want to advertise it, please drop me
a not.  I'm trying to get a lists of all Traveller PBeM posted to
TravellerCentral.

Thanks
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:27:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:27:36 +0100
Subject: [TML] Classic Traveller GM Screen
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020322222704.00b6d1b0@192.168.0.1>
 <3CA6EBDE.4F036886@virgin.net> <200203310632250552.5A478B7C@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CA9F818.C7735816@virgin.net>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 3/31/2002 at 10:58 AM Si wrote:
>
> >Guys ('n' gals),
> >
> >I am currently using the Judges Guild CT Referee's screen (the 4 page,
> >double-sided dark green one with the chunky writing - if there is more than
> >one).  As it is now getting on quite a bit (I am sure it must be well over 20
> >years old now, an age that most of us can only vaguely remember) and stuck
> >together with sellotape that is older than all 3 of my kids put together, i
> >would really like to print off a good version and get it laminated so i can
> >enjoy it for another 20+ years.  The problem is, i can't manage to scan a
> >decent copy and i don't want to photocopy it as i would ideally like an
> >electronic version I can manipulate a bit beforehand.
> >
> >does anyone on the TML have a decent electronic copy of this screen that they
> >could send me, or know how i can get a decent scan of it?
>
> Wait just a bit and you can have a brand new one!
>
> We (QLI) have a CT screen ready to go as soon as we print T20 (yeah yeah I know about the delays *grin*). The new screen is based in part on the original JG screen (we bought out the rights to the old JG Traveller material awhile back).
>
> Hunter

There is only so long i can wait dude

;-)

Seriously though, I intend to get the T20 stuff anyway, but i also want the original CT screen so i can run nostalgia games.

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:29:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:29:35 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: Accents and Bonuses
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020331073926.009f9080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9F88F.5EF04DC9@virgin.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 01:06 AM 3/31/02 -0800, you wrote:
> > >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> >
> > >How do you use the elevators?  You can't press the buttons on
> > >the Sabbath, nor can you ask someone to press your floor.
> >
> >The stairs you should take.  God forbid your heart should take that day off,
> >too.
>
> A solution if you have a room on the second or third floors..
>
> ObTrav: A ship crewed by Orthodox Jews sets up so they will spend Passover
> in jump.  They misjump, and come out of jump way early, on a course to hit
> something large and fatal.  Your characters are passengers on said
> ship..  Much fun happens.
>
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

Doubt it, you can break nearly every single law in order to save life (apart from
the total ban on cannibalism, murder and incest - i think)

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:47:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:47:55 -0700
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
>>This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
>>First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might
> 
> be.
> 
>>Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in
> 
> the
> 
>>game universe are - IMO - dubious.
> 
> 
> My main aim isn't to recreate the original Traveller sequence. If I'd
> wanted that, I'd just use it instead of First In  ;-)
> 
> However, I want roughly the same spread of intelligent races as in typical
> SF, ie the most common environment for sentinent life to evolve in is on
> Earthlike worlds.
> 
> I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might look
> under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary after a
> while.
> 
> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
> function using radically different biochemistries?

Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
reprinted in various places.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:52:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:52:24 -0700
Subject: [TML] Questions, questions
References: <102.1302b0d5.29db4876@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9FDE8.10303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to 
> remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible

Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's 
ridiculous as well. Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens, 
H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.

A more logical explanation would be that Gramps took H. hablis, geneered 
the species into H. sap, and re-seeded Terra, as well as Zhodane and 
Vland (and all the other planets) with the new species.

Would explain some of the more puzzling aspects of our evolution...

> 2) Can Hivers hold their breath?

Hold one under water and see...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:57:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 10:57:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <18.1cd71567.29db47c8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008701c1da78$3e3cfec0$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Tuesday, April 02, 2002 9:43 AM
CHam628781@aol.com said,

> Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs
> starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're
> borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.
>
> The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not
to
> let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can
probably
> see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information
than
> you wish to give out.

Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power
biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.  If the
security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.

> If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems
for
> opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch
> then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to
a
> specialist lock-smith.

If there is a mechanical system for opening the door than it comes down to
cutting the power to the doors locking mechanism so that you can operate the
manual.  This usually wouldn't be too difficult.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"I do not fear computers.  I fear the lack of them." -Isaac Asimov


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 19:13:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:13:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> from "laning" at Apr 02, 2002 05:29:18 AM
Message-ID: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>

Laning writes:
> One of the problems with the above approach is anyone with good credit and 
> a good business plan could build jump-5 or jump-6 ships and they would be 
> too common.  Which got me to wondering if I couldn't make the cost for jump 
> drives go up proportional to the square of the jump number.  Which in turn 
> got to me wondering if it would be a good idea to have the same type of 
> relationship for power plants and maneuver drives.  Probably yes to jump 
> drives and no to the others.

I've always wondered why ships cost so much, particularly given
the degree of automation & robot labor which ought to be available.
And the idea for starting the cost low and then going up exponentially
based on the range of jump seems like a good one, but it needs to be
justified somehow. It seems to me that in a setting where energy costs
plummet to near zero (due to access to fusion), and where labor costs
plummet to near zero (due to massive use of robotics), you end up with
an economic framework (at least at the higher tech levels) where the
only stuff that really costs a great deal of money are status items
(priced high due to cost of advertising), new technologies (due to
cost of unamortized designer hours), and rare materials (priced high
due to rarity). In terms of starships, particularly for designs which
have been around for centuries, the only one of these factors that
holds up is the rare materials factor. Hence, lanthanum comes to mind.

So making the most expensive item of a starship the jump grid makes a
certain amount of economic sense, and making the price increase
exponentally due to the necessary "density" of the grid also makes
sense. Nonetheless, it seems like a bit of an extreme proposition to
say that lanthanum costs as much as it must in order for starships to
work out as expensive as they are in Traveller. All, IMHO. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 19:21:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:21:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017775268.4978.ajackson@ping>

jimv writes:
> 
> I've always wondered why ships cost so much, particularly given
> the degree of automation & robot labor which ought to be available.

Well, you do realize that traveller starships are huge.

Basically, ships have to be expensive or you run into problems with the
economics of the setting.  If you want cheaper ships, I'd reduce the minimum
size of jump-capable ships below 100 dtons.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 19:57:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam Draper)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:57:34 -0700
Subject: [TML] Making FFS2 more like High Guard
In-Reply-To: <20020402170616.65F2C279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGAEAICFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>

I written some rules in an attempt to make FFS2 a little simpler to use.
The system covers TL 11-15, and displacements of between 10 and 1,000.
Larger ships would not be difficult to add, except that I did not want to
include all of the appropriately enormous sensors and weapons.  Mass and
surface area are not used for the most part, although they could be added
easily in optional rules.  If anyone would like to take a look, my webpage
can be found at www.lansrc.com/~draper/nsds.  I would appreciate any
suggestions or comments you might have.

Thanks,

Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:09:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:09:16 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <12d.f1855a6.29da07cd@aol.com>
References: <12d.f1855a6.29da07cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020402200916.0b4f8c3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> This is unlikely since the complexity of the ecosystem is likely to be 
> related to the available food sources at the bottom of the food chain.
These 
> will be severely limited on an Ice ball, even an old one. Hence the easy
way 
> round the problem is to cap the positive modifiers available for
non-ocean 
> worlds. I'd suggest +6 is a suitable number, altough I'm not an expert
on 
> First In so other numbres might be more suitable. 

A +6 modifier makes it impossible for complex animals to evolve under the
ice, although simple animals are still possible. Simpler lifeforms remain
rather common (37% of all icy rockballs with subsurface oceans get some
form of life).

I like this. I'll keep it for MTU.

After playing around with some modifiers for the other world types, I
finally found numbers I feel good about:

Additions to Step 15
====================
Age bonus for icy rockballs limited to +6
-5 for nitrogen worlds
-3 for ammonia worlds

This gives the following results:

Spread of complex life over all worlds in the TU
================================================
Subgiant :  1.4%
Nitrogen : 22.2%
Ammonia  : 18.7%
Desert   : 19.6%
Icy sub. :  0.0%
Earthlike: 38.1%

Chance of complex life on a world of a given type
=================================================
Subgiant :  6.3%
Nitrogen :  8.4%
Ammonia  :  7.7%
Desert   :  6.8%
Icy sub. :  0.0%
Earthlike: 77.2%

(the above data was collected from a large dataset)

I'll probably keep these numbers. In any case, the modifiers are included
in my program now, which means that the script on my webpage behaves
accordingly.

If there is enough interest, I could easily put up a script for the
unmodified rules as well.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:15:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:15:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] test (sorry)
In-Reply-To: <20020402200916.0b4f8c3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIKDJAA.tml@downport.com>

testing FROM



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:18:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:18:46 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402151321.02829d40@pop.wizard.net>

>JimV says:
<<<snip>>>
>So making the most expensive item of a starship the jump grid makes a
>certain amount of economic sense, and making the price increase
>exponentally due to the necessary "density" of the grid also makes
>sense. Nonetheless, it seems like a bit of an extreme proposition to
>say that lanthanum costs as much as it must in order for starships to
>work out as expensive as they are in Traveller. All, IMHO. -Jim

I agree.  Plus, I think jump grids are supposed to canonically always have 
the same density regardless of jump number.  I suppose we could charge a 
lot more for zuchai crystals.  A particular piece of canon I've always been 
too embarrassed to throw at my players.  I keep trying to promote Traveller 
as a relatively 'hard SF' game.  Whether it is hard, semirigid, or soft, 
zuchai crystals seem to drop it down to the level of camp, soft SF occupied 
by original Star Trek.

And I still have the problem of making hulls, manuever drives, power 
plants, and computers priced exponentially higher as their capability go 
up.  (Well, exponent of capability would be one factor in the equation.  It 
wouldn't be a raw relationship because that would make jump-6 or 
maneuever-6 just too expensive.)

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:24:03 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [TML] [ANNOUNCEMENT] Frontiers PBeM Campaign
In-Reply-To: <OF198476A5.770671F6-ON85256B8F.005B7FB4@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204022222490.168484-100000@svati>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, William Lane wrote:

><snip>
>  I'm setting up a PBeM in the Spinward Marches/Trojan Reaches
>sectors and are looking for some interested players.
></snip>
>
>I would like to play. i cant check traveller central from work so could you
>let me know what version of traveller you will be using? will the gm be
>making Pre-generated chars? if not can we request a pre generated char?
>

The game will be using GURPS with som modifications. There are some
pre-generated characters available, and I can also generated characters
according to your wishes. Just ask :-)

Cheers
Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:28:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:28:40 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <001f01c1d9c8$14f2af20$629193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <052601c1da84$f9e24b60$1f9e15ac@warrior>

surely you've heard of Sealand then :)

http://www.sealandgov.com/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)


>
> >
> > My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a
> > twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.
> >
> >
>
> I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air
force.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:26:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:26:17 +0000
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
Message-ID: <F150I5MQ8S8M30TqD1C000114f8@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
Cavalry.
     Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?
     Thanks in advance.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S. BTW, I'm recently back from a long business trip to Venezuela.  For 
those of you keeping score at home, you can now add Venezuela to the 
"Circling The Bowl" column of your nation/state scoresheets.  Indonesia and 
Zimbabwe may have had a head start, but Venezuela is coming up on the rail 
very quickly!


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:30:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:30:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017775268.4978.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402152005.027e07c0@pop.wizard.net>

Anthony Jackson writes:
>Well, you do realize that traveller starships are huge.
>
>Basically, ships have to be expensive or you run into problems with the
>economics of the setting.  If you want cheaper ships, I'd reduce the minimum
>size of jump-capable ships below 100 dtons.

I thought of that, but have three problems there.

First, it's highly unlikely tiny starships will be able to support 
themselves.  They'll be _somewhat_ cheaper to construct, but still probably 
greater than 10 megacredits, but maintenance and operations will eat the 
owner alive.

The price reduction isn't enough for purposes of MTU.

I'd like to see large starships be more practicable for governments, 
corporations, and individuals to own.  Not just make it possible for people 
of more limited means to acquire the starship equivalent of a Volkswagen 
bug or a Hyundai.

It seems to me cost of starship _should_ be driven not primarily by size of 
hull but the aggregation of components in it.  It should be possible to 
construct the equivalent of a tramp coastal freighter significantly less 
than one megacredit.  It will have bare bones navigation and maneuever 
ability, just enough to enable it to get various operating permits and just 
enough to qualify for insurance at fairly cheap rates.  If the owner(s) 
prosper, then they can upgrade and rebuild key components.  Bridge and 
electronics, drives and power plant.  But that is what starts to cost.  And 
weapon prices should remain unchanged from canon, by and large.

All of this is just _a_ Traveller universe I'd like to run.  I don't 
seriously propose it as a change to canon.  Although, hmmm maybe.  Maybe it 
would be nice to see alternate price rules offered in the books to referees 
who desire the same sort of game effects I'm talking about.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:28:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:28:12 -0700
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices
References: <ML-2.3.1017775268.4978.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CAA145C.2030502@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> jimv writes:
> 
>>I've always wondered why ships cost so much, particularly given
>>the degree of automation & robot labor which ought to be available.
> 
> 
> Well, you do realize that traveller starships are huge.

Traveller starships are vessels of a magnitude somewhere between a C5 or 
Boeing 767 and a medium sized freighter, neither of which is cheap.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:33:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:33:08 -0600
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
References: <F150I5MQ8S8M30TqD1C000114f8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAA1584.37136E3E@premier.net>


"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the
> kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal,
> pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard
> Cavalry.

According to GT:BtC, the kian is native to Prilissa (3035 Trin's Veil)
[page 121].

I don't know of kian stats in any game system.

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:41:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:41:28 +0100
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>
Message-ID: <005101c1da86$d5f683e0$5d9493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Wouldn't this make for an excellent GT supplement as well? That way, it
> might even see print...
>
>
>

You could pitch it to Quiklink as part of the PDF line supporting
T20/CT.....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:44:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:44:18 +0000
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
Message-ID: <F127LDp7mvjkO22ZhCl0000dc60@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?"


Mr. Kwon,

     Robots IMTU are little more than mobile, expert systems.  A pretty lame 
take on the subject, but creativity isn't one of my strong suits.
     The more robots deal with humans or operate within a general human 
setting, the more likely they'll be the upright, bipedal, anthromorphic 
robots of classic sci-fi.  A two-legged, vaguely human shaped, robot with 
arms and hands will be preferred as a steward or medic by most folks over a 
metal box on treads with tentacles.  Robots with "hands" will also be able 
to use the same utensils and tools the rest of the crew uses.
     Robots in industrial settings will be far less anthromorphic, in those 
settings function will drive form.
     The inclusion of the robot operations skill in later CT seemed to 
support my take on the subject.  While anyone could "use" a robot for simple 
purposes, only skilled operators could make full use of a robot's programmed 
skill set.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:51:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:51:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402152005.027e07c0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017780666.495.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> 
> I thought of that, but have three problems there.
> 
> First, it's highly unlikely tiny starships will be able to support 
> themselves.  They'll be _somewhat_ cheaper to construct, but still probably
>  greater than 10 megacredits, but maintenance and operations will eat the 
> owner alive.

Merchant ships pretty much need to be several tens of megacredits to have any
chance of business survival anyway.  The economics of scale at the low end are
too large.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:45:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:45:37 +1000
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices [was Re: Living...on an Airplane]
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> In other words, reduce hull, computer, maneuver, and power plant
> costs by probably two orders of magnitude but jump drives by only
> one.  Which still doesn't work out quite as tidily as I'd like.

That would start to eat into my suspension of disbelief,
unfortunately.  I would expect a spaceship the size of a small mansion
to cost at least a similar amount, and probably quite a bit more.
After all, a planet-based house doesn't have to protect you against
solar flares, vacuum, extremes of heat and cold, or move at thousands
of kilometres per second.


> I would like it if you could commission say a really nice yacht for 3 
> megacredits or less.  Which is still a huge sum of money.

Well, you can think of a 100 dton spaceship as being about the volume
of 100-foot luxury yachts, which apparently have a price tag of a few
million US dollars.  I don't think a spacecraft should cost a lot
less; quite the reverse.


>  Weaponry and shield costs would remain unmodified.  Or a 200-ton
> free trader for maybe just under 1 megacredit, built new.

My figures get close to this *without* a jump drive, at 1.5 MCr.  I
get jump-1 engine plus minimum fuel at 1.4 MCr, so getting close.


> Which got me to wondering if I couldn't make the cost for jump
> drives go up proportional to the square of the jump number.

IMO, they ought to.  Supposedly, the difficulty of building jump
drives with successive capabilities increases per *tech level*, so it
must be greatly more difficult.  At least comparable to the difference
between prop-driven craft and jets, for every jump number increase.

If you're fiddling with the figures, a doubling of cost per unit
volume each jump number wouldn't be out of line IMO.  That could give
a jump engine cost for a 200 dton ship of 1.2 MCr for jump-1, up to
140 MCr for jump-6. These figures would be in CrImp, not local
currency.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:49:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:49:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sW9A-0001AK-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> on 4/1/02 10:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com
> wrote: > > I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that
> difficult to > build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate
> power > battery.  
> 
> I have yet to be convinced that such things will work, and be at all
> effective.  Particularly as the  strength of burst will be inversely
> proportional to the to the square of the distance.  Has anyone
> actually seen a demonstration where this works?  It should be rather
> easy to test.
> 
> Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical
> martial arts 'death touch'.

Look at the article about them in the New Scientist of July 1, 2000

or look at

www.infowar.com/mil_c4i/mil_c4i8.html-ssi 
www.dallas.net/~pevler/jec.htm 
www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/ news/RFWeap.htm 

or look up flux compressors

The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures 
I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius 
kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:50:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:50:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I keep looking at the p-H3 reaction, and although it has a 
high hurdle for starting, it yields more energy per unit 
fuel, and is aneutronic.

Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
doesn't seem to be that hard to find.

It looks like you could build a much smaller H3 fusion 
reactor, not just from the standpoint of overall yield per 
unit fuel, but also because no energy would be wasted 
accelerating neutrons (70% of the D-T cycle is neutron 
energy), and there would be no need to have neutron 
shielding.  I can almost see the argument that the only way 
to get a "tabletop" fusion reactor would be to run it on H3.

Looking for a handwave for H3 reactors...

If you were suddenly able to take a TL15 (CT High Guard) 
powerplant, and say that an H3 reactor for the same output 
had a displacement 70% less...  the fuel consumption would 
also be smaller...  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:57:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:57:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017784677.311.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> I keep looking at the p-H3 reaction, and although it has a 
> high hurdle for starting, it yields more energy per unit 
> fuel, and is aneutronic.
> 
> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.

Well, it has essentially no natural abundance on earth, since most helium on
earth, IIRC, comes from alpha decay.  Aside from this problem, D-He3 is
considered a promising second-generation fusion fuel (p-He3 is much harder to
pull off, and no more useful).
> 
> It looks like you could build a much smaller H3 fusion 
> reactor, not just from the standpoint of overall yield per 
> unit fuel, but also because no energy would be wasted 
> accelerating neutrons (70% of the D-T cycle is neutron 
> energy), and there would be no need to have neutron 
> shielding.  I can almost see the argument that the only way 
> to get a "tabletop" fusion reactor would be to run it on H3.

You'll still get a significant chunk of high energy radiation.
> 
> Looking for a handwave for H3 reactors...
> 
> If you were suddenly able to take a TL15 (CT High Guard) 
> powerplant, and say that an H3 reactor for the same output 
> had a displacement 70% less...  the fuel consumption would 
> also be smaller...  

TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.  One
assumes the neutron problems have been solved.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:04:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:04:52 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sWO7-0004I7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:

> I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
> 
> (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> 
> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

In Jeopardy mode:

Heretics for 100: Who is Galileo

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:22:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:22:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sleeping In Starports, without Jimmy Hoffa
Message-ID: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.sleepinginairports.net/airports.htm

I remember (or my back remembers) sleeping in the airport at 
Frankfurt, waiting for a morning flight.

I suppose that the orbital facility might frown on this, 
considering that I would not only be taking up space, but 
breathing the air as well.

One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the 
price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial 
cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very 
much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be 
possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for 
mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the 
fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator 
runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to 
ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of 
the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.  The 
same device could also be used in recycling to return 
anything to its component atoms.

So, is that how the recycler works on the ship?  Is there 
some plasma separator in there, and it's all reduced to 
whatever the ship's environmental controls are interested 
in?  Dump the other ions into space?

Nice place for the Jimmy Hoffas of the future...

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:27:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:27:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16sW9A-0001AK-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B8CF6F3E.3427B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 1:49 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>> Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical
>> martial arts 'death touch'.
> 
> Look at the article about them in the New Scientist of July 1, 2000
> 
> or look at
> 
> www.infowar.com/mil_c4i/mil_c4i8.html-ssi
> www.dallas.net/~pevler/jec.htm
> www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/ news/RFWeap.htm
> 
> or look up flux compressors
> 
> The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures
> I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius
> kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.

Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find anything.  OK,
I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite terrorist building
these?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:43:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tim Little wrote:
>laning wrote:
> > In other words, reduce hull, computer, maneuver, and power plant
> > costs by probably two orders of magnitude but jump drives by only
> > one.  Which still doesn't work out quite as tidily as I'd like.
>
>That would start to eat into my suspension of disbelief,
>unfortunately.  I would expect a spaceship the size of a small mansion
>to cost at least a similar amount, and probably quite a bit more.
>After all, a planet-based house doesn't have to protect you against
>solar flares, vacuum, extremes of heat and cold, or move at thousands
>of kilometres per second.

Yes, but it's also the same size as a big quonset hut used as a storage 
shed and the hull doesn't need to cost a whole lot more.  In fact, given 
manufacturing capabilities of TTL 12+ industrial worlds, it may well cost 
less, complete with being airtight, radiation proof, and bracing sufficient 
to hold up against maneuvering stresses.

> > I would like it if you could commission say a really nice yacht for 3
> > megacredits or less.  Which is still a huge sum of money.
>
>Well, you can think of a 100 dton spaceship as being about the volume
>of 100-foot luxury yachts, which apparently have a price tag of a few
>million US dollars.  I don't think a spacecraft should cost a lot
>less; quite the reverse.
But the absolute cheapest spacecraft, with hardly yacht-like standards of 
creature comforts or other furnishings, costs about ten times what earth 
yachts cost.



> >  Weaponry and shield costs would remain unmodified.  Or a 200-ton
> > free trader for maybe just under 1 megacredit, built new.
>
>My figures get close to this *without* a jump drive, at 1.5 MCr.  I
>get jump-1 engine plus minimum fuel at 1.4 MCr, so getting close.

Which edition of Traveller rules are you going by?  I think we're talking 
apples and oranges to each other.

LBB 2 says 10 megacredits for the smallest jump drive.  I only have first 
edition (buggy) High Guard, and can't find _either_ of my MT Referee's 
Manuals.  My preferred ship construction rules are MT, since they're all 
together in one place, I like the fuel consumption better, I like being 
forced to balance both mass and volume, and I like Agility.  TNE's FFS goes 
way too far for me in complexity and is only rewarding for plucking certain 
components out of, not when building entire ships (IMHO).  T4's ship design 
rules...the less said, the better.  Although I intend to buy pieces of GT, 
ship construction isn't one of them.

I'd like to use MT rules, but don't have access to them.  IIRC, MT ship 
construction costs were very much in line with LBB 2 costs in most 
situations.  A little bit cheaper if you were going with minimum 
configurations, but not a lot.  I won't use the first edition High Guard in 
this discussion, since we all know they required major revision.  I think 
the standard free trader had major volume discounts etc. and MT sold it for 
something under 25 (?) megacredits because of its standardization.

Costs for the major components of an LBB 2 minimum configuration 200-ton 
ship follow.
200t hull:  8 megacredits
Type A power plant:  8 megacredits
Type A maneuver drive:  4 megacredits
Type A jump drive:  10 megacredits
Model 1 computer with no software:  2 megacredits
Total so far:  32 megacredits

No matter how cheap the hull for the above gets, the other major components 
are going to be a minimum of 24 megacredits.  <Doctor Evil voice> That's 
twenty-four _million_ of your Imperial credits. </Doctor Evil voice>  LOL.

Actually, LBB 2 sells a 200t hull at major discount for standardization, 
along with five other hull sizes.  "Custom" hull sizes are priced at 
cr100,000 per ton.

I'd like to see a 200-dt cost, for example, cr400,000, and the cost of the 
entire rest of a complete ship that's mostly just empty hull for cargo 
space add up to around another cr400,000.  Even then, a PC or group of PCs 
who are able to sell a ship for approaching 1 megacredit can almost run 
amok through the shopping lists for everything else they want.  I can see 
major discounts for buying/selling used, but I'm not comfortable going 
along with buying an old but still serviceable ship for one-tenth of 
original price.  If it's still serviceable, it shouldn't get lower than 
one-quarter of original price.  The only exception would be if a major 
component is likely to need replacing within the next year, that would 
greatly lower the cost.

I like the idea of hulls being the biggest expense in building a low-cost 
ship but I'm still looking at reducing their cost by an order of magnitude 
compared to LBB 2.  Once you buy a hull in decent condition, with a 
lanthanum jump grid, it is an attractive notion that the other components 
can be upgraded (or downgraded) over time.  Without requiring a sum equal 
to the GDP of some Third World countries.

I can rewrite prices to get pretty close to the effect I'm looking 
for.  But that would be inconvenient for my players.  The elegant (or is it 
lazy?) solution would be to tell players to just shift the decimal one or 
two places for each of the major starship components.  That way they could 
look at their rule book during the design sequence and not have to do a lot 
of mental gymnastics to figure out the impact of my house rule on prices.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:58:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:58:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CF6F3E.3427B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <E16sW9A-0001AK-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402175058.028900a0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn says, about EMP pipe bombs:

>Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find anything.  OK,
>I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite terrorist building
>these?

Off the top of my head:

What is its effectiveness against _shielded_ devices?

Terrorists usually like nice dramatic, visible results.  For immediate 
gratification, and for its propaganda value on the nightly television 
news.  EMPs are less than completely satisfying in this regard.

It's relatively new, give it more time.

ObTrav:  Most developed worlds will have good enough shielding in standard 
equipment that terrorists with EMP bombs can accomplish very little.

--Laning

PS  Wasn't an EMP bomb a plot device in the recent remake of 'Oceans Eleven'?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:53:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:53:24 -0600
Subject: [TML] GT starports and fuel
Message-ID: <3CAA3664.E63D6D4F@mail.cswnet.com>

Some ideas, questions, and thoughts to kick around....

First, A fix proposal:
Original text>
Page 72: "The average port should incorporate tankage at least equal to
.06 times the weekly displacement tonnage of starship served."

Additional text>
begining at the end of "served, times the distance in parsecs to the 
closest planetary system. The closest planetary system used for this
purpose may not be interdicted."

Second, the fuel blimp issue p73
Questions:
Could one use fuel blimps to pick up fuel from asteroid belts, assuming
that such belts had ice and the fuel blimp would be picking up the fuel
from a fuel mining station?

Text:"GM should ... assign a small craft cost of Mcr.001 to Mcr1
(averaging Mcr.01)per dt of total weekly starship traffic"

Why is the purpose have having a variation in cost for fuel blimps?
Why would it not be per dt of total weekly starship fuel used?

Three, conversion to CT/HG2
Anyone using GT:Starports for CT/HG2 purposes must remember to add
powerplant fuel to the port tankage requirement. 
Example: Arba has a weekly starship dt of 1050. For GT purposes,
assuming 3 day supply min., 1050*.06*2parsecs=126dt jumpfuel A full week
supply would be double this, 252dt. For CT/HG2, assume a minimum power
plant equal to minimum jump distance; in Arba's case, 2 parsecs.
1050*.01*2=21 for 4 weeks of operation, 10.5 for 2 weeks (enough for 
minimum jump, assuming no bumpy ride). This leaves us with a full weeks
supply for HG2 purposes of 262.5dt.

.01Cr for your thoughts...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:28:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:28:15 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402175058.028900a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8CF7E8F.34298%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 2:58 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Off the top of my head:
> 
> What is its effectiveness against _shielded_ devices?

How many targets are likely to be shielded?
> 
> Terrorists usually like nice dramatic, visible results.  For immediate
> gratification, and for its propaganda value on the nightly television
> news.  EMPs are less than completely satisfying in this regard.

Not necessarily.  There are sophisticated terrorists, particularly state
sponsored ones.  Think of the impact EMP could have on banks and credit
firms.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:32:03 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy Analysis
Message-ID: <20020402233203.5927.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I would assume (there I go with my assumptions again)
that anyone willing to commit piracy would also be
willing to skip. And it's much, much easier to just
skip.
END QUOTE

Except some of the things that make piracy hard such
as always on transponders and huge sensor arrays, also
make it hard to skip. After all there is no point
skipping if you can't sell your ship our make money
through trade or piracy or smuggling. It would be
easier to decalre yourself bankrupt. That is of course
if MyMines don't get hold of you.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:43:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 01:43:39 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <20020402200103.89CDB279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204030126270.19159-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Bruce Johnson writes:
>CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
>>1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to
>>remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible
>
>Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
>ridiculous as well.

No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H. erectus_
and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
showing up as early as that.

But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In
the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place
_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.

>Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens,
>H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.

_H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.

[*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.


Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:49:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204030126270.19159-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <B8CF8370.3429F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 3:43 PM, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen at rancke@diku.dk wrote:

> _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
> mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
> reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
> but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
> 
> [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.

Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are
interfertile.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:56:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:56:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #372 - 42 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020402170616.65F2C279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402155400.00a4c780@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 02 Apr 2002 08:03:56 -0800, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> 
wrote:

>I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
>
>(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
>
>100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

*scratches head*  Knowing Galileo is geeky?  I thought that was called 
"educated."


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:05:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:05:43 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> In fact, given manufacturing capabilities of TTL 12+ industrial
> worlds, it may well cost less, complete with being airtight,
> radiation proof, and bracing sufficient to hold up against
> maneuvering stresses.

That's an argument for making *everything* cost less, not just
starships.  In fact, GT *does* make high-tech worlds a lot richer than
low-tech ones, so this matches pretty well.


> But the absolute cheapest spacecraft, with hardly yacht-like
> standards of creature comforts or other furnishings, costs about ten
> times what earth yachts cost.

I get the cheapest manned interplanetary spacecraft as costing about
50 kCr new at TL 10.  That's not a lot more than an expensive new car.


> Which edition of Traveller rules are you going by?  I think we're talking 
> apples and oranges to each other.

Probably.  I'm using GURPS Traveller and GURPS Vehicles, and dividing
jump drive costs by 10 (but no other changes).


> Although I intend to buy pieces of GT, ship construction isn't one
> of them.

The basic GURPS Traveller book has a modular starship construction
system, so you might find it hard to avoid :)


> Costs for the major components of an LBB 2 minimum configuration 200-ton 
> ship follow.
> 200t hull:  8 megacredits

Ouch!  Under GURPS Vehicles, I can get the cost down to under 0.02 MCr!
(if it doesn't have to land on a planet)

> Type A power plant:  8 megacredits

Double-ouch!  Much less than 0.1 MCr under GT (depending on other
ship's systems).

> Type A maneuver drive:  4 megacredits

Triple-ouch!  If you can accept low acceleration, this could be as low
as you like in most design systems.

> Type A jump drive:  10 megacredits

Yeah, about what GURPS Traveller uses.  By far the biggest expense of
a starship, but not relevant to a mere spaceship.

> Model 1 computer with no software:  2 megacredits

Quadruple-ouch!  You can get away with a few tens of thousands at most
for a bare redundant computer system under GURPS.


Wow, the LBBs really do hit your wallet *hard*!  I suggest using some
other design system if you want lower costs.  *Any* other design
system.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:07:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:07:30 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
Message-ID: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
But your troubles are only just *beginning* -- their
cargo manifest includes 10 dtons of live penguins ...
END QUOTE

PC's on a derelict free trader:
PC1: "Hmmm, blood everywhere but no bodies"
PC2: "The only thing on the manifest is penguins, yet
the cargo bay is empty"
PC3: "Who would slaughter an entire ships crew for
penguins?"
PC2: "They also took the small craft"
PC1: "Whats that noise?"
PC3: "What noise?"
PC1: "Sounded like flapping of some kind"
PC2: "Lets get back to the ship"
PC1: "Okay lets go. <speaking into com> Hey Samantha,
light up the drives where out of here"
<No response>
PC1: "Samantha?, do you read?"
PC2: "Hey wheres Jimmy?"
PC1: <Spinning around to search for Jimmy> "Jimmy,
jimmy?"
<END RECORDING>

James







=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:08:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #372 - 42 msgs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402155400.00a4c780@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <B8CF87E8.342AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 3:56 PM, Kelly St.Clair at kellys@efn.org wrote:

>> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
> 
> *scratches head*  Knowing Galileo is geeky?  I thought that was called
> "educated."

It's even in the digest:

"When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:16:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:16:28 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
Message-ID: <20020403001628.32715.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

Speaking of villians with english accents reminds me
of a scene from Buffy:the vampire slayer. The english
librarian nearly gets killed by a demon and somebody
says:
"I bet your whole life flashed before your eyes, cup
of tea, cup of tea, nearly got shagged, cup of tea"

ObTrav: Sneaky intelligence agents have french
accents, even if they are Zhodani ;) Speaking of which
what would a Zhodani accent be comparable too?

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:28:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:28:43 PST
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204010842.AAA08687@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20402.152843.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?  What does canon say on =
>>this?
>
> Canon says little that I know of.  Generally, I assume it's hard.
>
>>Some parameters here:  I'm not talking about hijacking a ship, nor am I =
>>talking about ship theft incidental to piracy.
>>
>>Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved in stealing a =
>>starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.
>>
>>It seems to me the problem can be considered as four separate issues:

>>3.  Entering the vessel.
>>
>>Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let you in. <g> =20
>>
>>How do starships determine who to admit?  Whoever holds the key?  =
>>Voiceprints?  Biometrics?  Passwords?  Some combination?  Given =
>>sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar (doubtful) or a cutting =
>>torch (probably)? =20
>
> For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't get
> in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
> send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
> do the ship much good, however.

Also, it can't be *too* hard. there will be lots of situations when the
crew wants to get inside *fast*, or they may be a bit "damaged" or
"incapacitated". Or both.

Entry should be merely difficult enough to dissaude *amatuers*. Pros
will get in anyway, so the extra efforts isn't really justifiable in
terms of cost/benefit. 

>>Having forced your way in what active countermeasures do you have to =
>>defeat?  Does the ship send combat bots?  Does the environmental system =
>>become hostile?  Does an anti theft program deliberately destroy the =
>>Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the j-drive useless?
>
> Most likely, none of the above; the ship yells for help and goes into 
> lockdown mode.  Paranoid owners could easily equip the ship with kill
> switches in a few critical concealed junctions.

"Mantrap" type defenses (ie possibly injurious or lethal defenses not
under human control) are a great way to get yourself in *big* trouble
at least in most of the civilized world now. 

As an example, while many jurisdictions say that you can shoot an
intruder who invades your home while you are inside, those same
jurisdictions will be all over you for setting a beartrap when you
aren't home.

The Imperium may be looser about this, but I wouldn't count on it too
far. 

Also, do you *really* want to risk getting killed if there's a bug in
those automated defenses?

>>4.  Establishing vessel control.
>>
>>Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do you get the starship =
>>to respond to your commands?  When you plop down on the pilot's couch =
>>what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver drive?  =
>>Again, is there a key?  Biometrics?  PIN numbers?  How much trouble =
>>would there be in performing the starship analog of a hot-wire job?
>
> For higher tech ships, most likely you're defeating biometrics, plus a
> rather smart robot brain.  Unless you can steal startup information from
> the owner, most likely you're talking hours or days of work, particularly
> if kill switches have been installed.

Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...

But the biggest problem with stealing a starship on the ground will be
getting away. 

At all but the smallest ports, it'd be rather like trying to steal an
airliner from an airport, or a large ocean going vessel from a port.
The tower or the portmaster is going to want to know why you are making
an unscheduled departure. And if you don't have good answers, the Coast
Guard or Air Guard will be there in a hurry.

Stealing a orbit capable vessel (shuttle, etc) would likely be easier.
More like stealing small yacht or a small planes. Way too many of them
and they don't follow schedules. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:38:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:38:10 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>

> From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
> Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's
> kind of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not doing
> any more jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the
> character becomes motivated to take this one, last job.

In fact it's such a "classic bit" that I am considering playing it as a solo
game.

Unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable mission!  : (

I've got a couple of ideas about how to run it, though.  They might be of
interest to the other solo players on the list.

I'm thinking of having a list of possible "patrons", and not deciding which
is actually responsible until my character goes through the exercise of
finding out.  I might also have a set of contacts and potential allies, who
have to be approached and brought into the mission.  All of this takes time,
and possibly travel, and may not be successful.  There will also be other
factions interfering - again, these would be anonymous until identified the
hard way.  There would be some "just plain random" encounters as well.

The idea would be lots of paranoia.  Who is that that is tailing you?  Were
those thugs in the alley working for the other side, or were they just
thugs?  Who were the guys with the plasma guns that blew them away?

Of course there would have to be a list of mapped locations, with some
related NPCs.

Success would come from mobilising your own possible assets, finding out who
else is in the game, thwarting their plans, and working towards your own
devastating exercise in turning the tables on the jerks blackmailing you.

The plot itself would be a McGuffin hunt, shaped by "just in time" random
generation, plus incidents of "a man with a gun enters the room".  It could
be hopelessly convoluted and pointless, or it could be The Maltese Falcon.
Or The Millenium Falcon.

Now all I need is the time and energy to develop these ideas...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:12:07 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7@aol.com>

--part1_ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power
biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.  If the
security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.
 
   Hmmm...A goofy idea just occured to me. Someone outside in their suit 
could manually crank open this small access plate that'd allow him to place 
his head inside. His helmet's visor could then be opened (by servos?) so he 
could do face-to-scanner interaction with the ship, and thus, get the ship to 
open the hatch. Try to fake out the computer and you suddenly discover your 
head is inside a guillotine. Sure wouldn't like to be there when the computer 
decides to acquire a glitch in its programming :)
  -Ken-

"You are born with the yearning arrow, my Glynna.  It is not a happy thing
to possess... It points to the stars, and when it cannot reach them, it falls 
back to pierce your heart."
    - Wind (Isobelle Carmody, "Darkfall")
    




--part1_ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
<BR>intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power
<BR>biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit. &nbsp;If the
<BR>security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
<BR>vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
<BR>other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.
<BR> </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Hmmm...A goofy idea just occured to me. Someone outside in their suit could manually crank open this small access plate that'd allow him to place his head inside. His helmet's visor could then be opened (by servos?) so he could do face-to-scanner interaction with the ship, and thus, get the ship to open the hatch. Try to fake out the computer and you suddenly discover your head is inside a guillotine. Sure wouldn't like to be there when the computer decides to acquire a glitch in its programming :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">"You are born with the yearning arrow, my Glynna. &nbsp;It is not a happy thing
<BR>to possess... It points to the stars, and when it cannot reach them, it falls 
<BR>back to pierce your heart."
<BR>    - Wind (Isobelle Carmody, "Darkfall")</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:16:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:16:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CF7E8F.34298%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402175058.028900a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402195900.00a95950@pop.wizard.net>

At 03:28 PM 4/2/02 -0800, you wrote:
>on 4/2/02 2:58 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
>
> > Off the top of my head:
> >
> > What is its effectiveness against _shielded_ devices?
>
>How many targets are likely to be shielded?
Government property and some industrial/commercial stuff.

I guess one of the best targets for the determined Luddite with an EMP bomb 
(hmm, is that an oxymoron?) would be MAE EAST.  I doubt it's shielded well 
enough.


> >
> > Terrorists usually like nice dramatic, visible results.  For immediate
> > gratification, and for its propaganda value on the nightly television
> > news.  EMPs are less than completely satisfying in this regard.
>
>Not necessarily.  There are sophisticated terrorists, particularly state
>sponsored ones.  Think of the impact EMP could have on banks and credit
>firms.
Yeah, I know.  :-<

At the risk of offending or jangling someone's nerves, those people still 
seem to prefer driving airliners full of avgas into the World Trade Center 
over something that invisibly makes machines stop working.  Partly for 
propaganda as stated above, but also because I think bin Laden and the 
hijackers who did those acts are sick pukes and get their jollies in sick ways.

Lest anyone think I am asserting that the very nature of terrorists makes 
us safe from any of them ever trying an EMP attack, I don't.  In fact, I 
think it is inevitable.  Just as I thought crashing a hijacked airliner 
into the Pentagon or White House or Capitol dome has been inevitable since 
it first occurred to me sometime...sometime around when the first three 
LBBs were published.  Not that there's any connection between the 
two.  It's just that even perfectly innocent people were dreaming up such 
things 25 years ago, and it turns out someone should have been taking those 
stray ideas much more seriously.

If the Gruppenfuhrer for Fatherland Security, er um I mean the Director of 
Homeland Security, ever gets around to it then he should already be pushing 
for hardening key governmental and commercial facilities and infrastructure 
like our power grid.  And looking for ways to trace sales of the rarer 
components required for assembling an EMP bomb capable of affecting a large 
area.

See guys?  Living in undefended New Zealand has its advantages.  All you 
have to do is worry about what to do with all that sheep dung and 
wool.  The folks in the States have to worry about junk like this.

Ever the tenacious one, I seek an ObTrav.  The Ine Givar come to mind, and 
what might their history be with successful and less than successful 
attempts at terror attacks?  Including what they may or may not have tried 
with EMP bombs and it went if they did.  We already know of that unpleasant 
nuclear thing.

--Laning (who often wonders if the National Security Agency in the US is 
driven buggy trying to figure out how to deal with the content that gamers 
put on the Internet)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:23:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:23:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8d0082a2e41@[143.232.119.186]>

On rule of thumb in security is that the hard you make it for 
unwarranted intrusion, the harder you make it for authorized people 
(you can't wear gloves for the thumb print, a cold alters your voice, 
etc.)

In some ways you can claim an entry code is the most secure (you can 
have the computer detect people trying to cycle through all the 
possible combinations), but in the end anything will be bypassible if 
you try hard enough.

Now starships are valuable, and there seems to be examples of people 
leaving them unattended, so I would guess the security to prevent 
intrusion would be high enough that it would be take a lot of effort 
to get in.  The crew will have to accept difficulties in getting in. 
That assumes the ship is unattended.  If there is crew on board, the 
security will be much lighter, just enough to keep someone from 
stolling on board.

I doubt security internally would be that great since the main goal 
will be to keep unauthorized people from wandering around and you 
don't want to obstruct a crewman in a hurry.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:26:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:26:08 +0200
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020403012608.08423dc6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.

Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:29:05 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
> reprinted in various places.

I Google'd around, but all I could find was webpages mentioning it. It
would seem that it is available in various paper reprints, but not on the
web. Sad...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:31:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020402.173115.-2657.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:12:07 EST MurfNMurf@aol.com writes:
>
>    Hmmm...A goofy idea just occured to me. Someone outside in their 
suit  could manually crank open this small access plate that'd allow him 
to place  his head inside. His helmet's visor could then be opened (by 
servos?) so he  could do face-to-scanner interaction with the ship, and
thus, get  the ship to  open the hatch. 

Open the pod bay doors Hal.

I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now.

Hal, open the pod bay doors.

I'm sorry Dave.

HAL! 

Yes Dave.

Hal, I've got to go to the bathroom!

I'm sorry Dave



..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:28:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:28:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
References: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>

At 4:20 AM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example. 
>Paying passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them 
>through the passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger areas 
>of the ship.  Each keycard is unique to each passenger, and so the 
>same card gets them into their own private cabin.  Crew will have 
>similar cards, that give them more freedom, and exactly how much and 
>which greater freedoms would depend on the crew member's billet.

I really don't see the crew needing card to move about the ship. 
That is going to get old in a hurry, could be a problem in an 
emergency, and is unecessary.

In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go 
where they shouldn't.  You wouldn't actually lock things unless they 
were particularly sensitive or valuable or someone had leasure to get 
into somplace they shouldn't (like an isolated closet).  This is 
similar to what ships use today.

-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:37:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:37:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <20402.152843.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204010842.AAA08687@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>

The esteemed Leonard Erickson wrote, including quotes from Texas Redshift:
> > For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't get
> > in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
> > send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
> > do the ship much good, however.
>
>Also, it can't be *too* hard. there will be lots of situations when the
>crew wants to get inside *fast*, or they may be a bit "damaged" or
>"incapacitated". Or both.
>
>Entry should be merely difficult enough to dissaude *amatuers*. Pros
>will get in anyway, so the extra efforts isn't really justifiable in
>terms of cost/benefit.
I agree but only a little bit.  The penalty when you do lose a ship (and 
probably some lives at the same time) is very large.  Typically hundreds of 
millions.  Yes, it is a touchstone of security that no security system is 
perfect, and you shouldn't spend excess effort on attempting to perfect 
your security beyond a point that is appropriate to your degree of risk and 
the cost if security fails.  Even one fat trader or passenger liner lost is 
going to drive everyone's insurance rates through the roof and may risk 
putting the insurer financially on the ropes.  If nobody else does, then 
insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security 
measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time 
and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.

The military will probably take a very different approach.  They'll rely on 
numerous armed crewmembers and armed ships in the area, and not bother with 
all the automated stuff.  The personnel and other vessels have to be there 
anyway, it isn't like it costs them extra.

> > Most likely, none of the above; the ship yells for help and goes into
> > lockdown mode.  Paranoid owners could easily equip the ship with kill
> > switches in a few critical concealed junctions.
>
>"Mantrap" type defenses (ie possibly injurious or lethal defenses not
>under human control) are a great way to get yourself in *big* trouble
>at least in most of the civilized world now.
I agree this will be a problem, but the Traveller universe's legal 
standards are not the same as the USA's.  As we all have reminded ourselves 
in the past during other discussions.  I did allude in my own earlier post 
to liability insurance possibly being voided by installation of security 
hardware capable of inflicting physical harm.  Even my trick with the grav 
plates may be rather expensive to get insurance for.  (Personally, I'd want 
it anyway, just not in sleeping quarters.)  IMTU, a ship without valid 
insurance finds itself unable to get permits for travelling most places in 
the Imperium.  Starport authorities don't want them around, booking agents 
won't want to sell passenger tickets for them, etc.

Oh, I'm not sure that the phrase "kill switches" was supposed to mean 
mantrap defenses.  I think it may have meant disabling critical ship's 
systems.  Perhaps a triphammer smashes the zuchai crystals.  <G>


>As an example, while many jurisdictions say that you can shoot an
>intruder who invades your home while you are inside, those same
>jurisdictions will be all over you for setting a beartrap when you
>aren't home.
>
>The Imperium may be looser about this, but I wouldn't count on it too
>far.
>
>Also, do you *really* want to risk getting killed if there's a bug in
>those automated defenses?
Few will, so even if they're able to obtain insurance and overcome the 
other issues, the minute someone points out to the risk to them of being 
hoist by their own petard, most owners/captains will drop the idea.

>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
>someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
>attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...
I see we've met some of the same player characters.  :->


>But the biggest problem with stealing a starship on the ground will be
>getting away.

Yes.  Exactly.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:34:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:34:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204030134.DFP01107@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite 
>terrorist building these?
>--

You have me there.  I think that there are a fair number of 
people on this list who are capable of manufacturing a flux 
compression generator, and a vircator (or obtaining something 
like it).

None of the technology involved in making such a device is 
restricted in the US other than the explosives.

It reminds me of a railgun in reverse, except you have an 
explosive driving the short back down the gun, and the power 
has nowhere to go except into a smaller and smaller area.  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:36:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
In-Reply-To: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]>

In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would 
tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary 
arrays.....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:40:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:40:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204030140.DFP01461@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>How many targets are likely to be shielded?

The literature I've been reading says that if your equipment 
is not completely enclosed in a Faraday cage, and you're 
inside the effective radius, your equipment is toast.

Antennae and metal cables that protrude outside the cage, or 
fiber cables that go through metal conduits will act as a 
waveguide if the bomb uses microwaves.

Think of the kind of shielding that was necessary for 
shielding against nuclear EMP.  The conventional EMP bomb has 
two advantages: longer pulse time and tunable frequency (by 
design).
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:41:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:41:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com> <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>


"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
> In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
> tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
> arrays.....

Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:46:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:46:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <20020403001628.32715.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402203829.027db060@pop.wizard.net>

James asks:
>ObTrav: Sneaky intelligence agents have french
>accents, even if they are Zhodani ;) Speaking of which
>what would a Zhodani accent be comparable too?

People who use the "zh" sound a lot?  Perhaps they are all French, since 
typically the letter J is pronounced as a zh sound en Francais.  Wargamers 
being the lot we typically are, it is hard to keep them from sinking into 
Monty Python and the Holy Grail shtick whenever French accents come up, 
however.  That is not desirable.

I'm drawing a blank for "zh" speakers.  Places that are vaguely middle 
eastern or central asian come to mind for some reason, but nothing specific.

I've always _wanted_ to give my Zhos accents, so this is definitely a 
worthwhile thread if we can derive an answer.

OTOH, it's silly to imagine that all people in a star-spanning empire have 
the same accent.  I mean, we can't even get all people on Terra to have the 
same accent.  There are hundreds of languages here, often extremely 
different from each other.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:45:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:45:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204030145.DFP01794@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>See guys?  Living in undefended New Zealand has its 
>advantages.  All you have to do is worry about what to do 
>with all that sheep dung and wool.  The folks in the States 
>have to worry about junk like this.
>

Well, they do have to worry about their government going 
silly on them.  That, and there's a story about a coffee 
roaster who was forced to stop roasting coffee at all hours 
(seems the neighbors didn't like the smell).

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:57:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:57:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>

>Tim Little, after comparing GURPS ship construction costs to LBB 
>construction costs, says:
>Wow, the LBBs really do hit your wallet *hard*!  I suggest using some
>other design system if you want lower costs.  *Any* other design
>system.

Actually, all the nonGURPS Traveller ship construction rules will produce 
results _much_ closer to the LBB prices than to GURPS prices.  And from 
what I've skimmed in the GURPS rules, I'd rather not switch to them, 
thanks.  I like MT ship building.

I think the original idea behind such expensive ships was to avoid having a 
Jetsons future where everyone can drive the family car to another planet 
for a weekend jaunt.  They wanted to have put high, but not impossibly 
high, barriers to frequent travel between star systems.  Otherwise there's 
no reason to believe that each the civilizations on each planet will remain 
distinctly different from each other after 1,100 years of being in the same 
Imperium and rubbing elbows all the time.

If you want worlds to have truly unique and _alien_ differences from each 
other, then you have to make travel between worlds be rare.   Which also 
makes the traveller (our intrepid player character) herself be rare and 
special.  That adds to escapist pleasure of roleplaying.

And I buy into all that, I do.  But I think we won't significantly alter 
traffic levels if we make ships hugely cheaper but still the province only 
of the very wealthy, a well funded corporation, or a government.  In fact, 
I am suspicious that canonical ship construction is so expensive that it 
can't properly account for the numbers of trade vessels that are required 
to support the massive trade going on between developed worlds.  Not that 
I've crunched any numbers, mind you.  Just talking through my...hat.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:05:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:05:35 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402205809.027d9ba0@pop.wizard.net>

At Alan Bradley quoted and wrote:
> > From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
> > Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's
> > kind of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not doing
> > any more jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the
> > character becomes motivated to take this one, last job.
>
>In fact it's such a "classic bit" that I am considering playing it as a solo
>game.
>
>Unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable mission!  : (
>
>I've got a couple of ideas about how to run it, though.  They might be of
>interest to the other solo players on the list.
I'm interested.  Especially if you can come up with practical ways for the 
bad guys to throw some real surprises at you.  Maybe all those with 
interest in solo play should write our own interactive scripts to post on 
Web sites and then go play on each other's Web sites?

(I'm definitely interested in seeing how successful a game design the new 
NeverWinter Nights will be.  And then applying that to other genres besides 
the Tolkien-cloned D&D games.  Like, science-fiction role-playing 
games.  The basic concept of anyone with a computer and network connection 
being able to tailor their own game world to their own game server and 
leave it up for other players is an interesting one.  EverQuest for 
Everyman, kind of thing.)

Keep us posted on your progress, please, Alan.

--Laning
"I'm leavin'....on a jet plane
  Don't know when I'll be back again
  Oh, babe
  I hate to go"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:16:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:16:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <200204030216.DFQ00018@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>If you want worlds to have truly unique and _alien_ 
>differences from each other, then you have to make travel 
>between worlds be rare.   Which also makes the traveller 
>(our intrepid player character) herself be rare and 
>special.  That adds to escapist pleasure of roleplaying.
>

I've recently come to the same conclusion, and the main 
handwave that I use is that there is a maximum size jump 
drive that can be built at each TL, and therefore a maximum 
size ship (regardless of how much cash you have).

Having re-read the Kinunir (I know, I know..) they talk about 
one of the ships in the class not being able to reach its 
full jump potential.  I therefore like the idea that you can 
build to a jump number, but whether or not you get it 
consistently with every ship in the class is something else.  
This means that a military ship may go through several refits 
in order to achieve its potential.  Reminds me of some 
fighter aircraft (the F-14 springs to mind) that didn't get 
decent engines until later in their useful life.  And some 
started with engines that were positively lethal.

I know that there are a lot of people who like the big spinal 
mounts, but I've reduced the maximum tonnage of ships to a 
fairly linear plot from 5000 tons at TL 9 to 20,000 tons at 
TL 15 (CT/HG).  I'm also assuming that the larger the ship, 
the more likely that the jump drive will be problematic.  
This explains the use of relatively small ships (200 and 400 
ton) despite the fact that with either HG or MT, much larger 
ships should completely Microsoft, I mean, replace all 
smaller vessels.

Also, I believe (John The Heretic) that abusing your jump 
drives leads to damage that is never really undone.  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:17:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:17:46 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <001f01c1da40$0a82f040$2c5d8690@computer>
References: <20020402064409.B8250279FA@mail.travellercentral.com> <001f01c1da40$0a82f040$2c5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <dhpkauca8tq85ip65jgf2n884na681gjhc@4ax.com>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:14:25 +1000, "Alan Bradley"
<abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:

>> From: JR Holmes=20
>> This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
>> There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
>> (or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
>> sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
>> example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.
>>=20
>> =3D46rom a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become =
part
>> of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
>> destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
>> becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.
>
>You evil naughty man...

And you wouldn't do the the same?

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:30:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:30:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>

Jens Rydholm quoted then opined:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been
> > reprinted in various places.
>
>I Google'd around, but all I could find was webpages mentioning it. It
>would seem that it is available in various paper reprints, but not on the
>web. Sad...

Sad?  Not if you talk to Harlan Ellison.  It's another intellectual 
property debate.  Artists and other creators have no capitalist incentive 
to share their work if it can be freely copied.  And, like any other 
property, they feel it's only fair that they be able to bequeath to their 
heirs.  Harlan is quite adamant about passing his IP rights (and royalties) 
down to his daughters.  He's hardly alone.  And anyone on the list who is 
still collecting royalties of some kind on their own published material 
takes more than a theoretical interest, I suppose.

I am on both sides of the fence (I'm like Jeremy the Nowhere Man in 'Yellow 
Submarine' or the Scarecrow in 'The Wizard of Oz').  I sympathize with 
Harlan Ellison and others.  I also feel strongly that sharing knowledge has 
less value to the human race if the knowledge is only shared with those who 
can pay for it.  The Internet is a great democratizer of knowledge 
sharing.  (It's more a socialist thing than a democracy thing, but it's not 
generally acceptable in the States to express it that way.)

I love usenet and mailing lists and even the WWW and email.  Everyone can 
share all their information freely!  And some of it is even accurate!  And 
I love that writers can make a living by writing!  Uh-oh, wait, I have a 
problem here.

What mechanisms are in place within the Imperium, or in other entities, for 
owners of IP rights to protect them against abuse on other planets?  I 
think the TML has tried to delve into this in the past, but always kind of 
veered away.  Or if we covered it, I was on hiatus from the TML due to 
traffic levels and shortage of time.  Certainly, it is not a condition of 
membership in the Imperium for member worlds to enforce any such 
mechanisms.  Does the Imperium still play a large role?  Perhaps backing a 
voluntary, but widely adhered to, accord or convention on IP rights?  Is 
part of the extensive data traffic between member worlds is updates to 
databases that track book sales, TriD sales, etc.?  In contract disputes 
over royalties where the parties to the dispute reside on different worlds, 
how are they resolved?

By the way, Jens, have you read Hal Clement's 'Mission of Gravity'?  A 
great example of intelligent alien life forms evolving on a world extremely 
different from Terra.  A just plain extreme world, in fact.  Clement opens 
the hood and lets us peer into a lot of the alien building he does.  The 
book's a classic, in fact.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:00:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:00:59 PST
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204011745.g31Hji001663@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20402.180059.2g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> As I've mentioned before, I've been toying w/ the idea of
> inertial suppression as a means of fast accelleration in an
> sf-rpg I'm *slowly* putting together w/ the help of some
> friends. However, there's some conflict over how to achieve
> this (I can email two articles which hint at the scientific
> premise to anyone who's interested). There's also the problem
> of unintended consequences. Since inertial suppression also
> exists in Traveller (so that ships can accellerate at 6G
> w/o squashing their crews), it might be a good idea to
> consider these consequences for a bit.

No. Inertial *compensation* exists in Traveller. Inertial
*suppression/neutralization* is a different matter.

The effects in Traveller could be simply created by an additional
component to the ship's artifical gravity that is equally and opposite
to the acceleration from the drive. The inertial mass of the contents
of the ship is unchanged, but a counteracting force is applied
uniformly to them

True inertia neutralization (or suppression) changes F=ma to F=kma
where k is a constant (or variable) determined by the degree of
neutralization. 

In effect, you are changing the inertial mass of the objects in
question. If this was what was happening in Traveller, then you
couldn't throw a ball across a compartment. As soon as you quit
pushing, the air resistance would stop it. 

BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
playing "grav pong" with hijackers.

> Basically, if I read him right, what he appears to be saying is that
> if you lower inertia in a given space by 99%, people in that area will
> have much more strength than they're used to having, because the
> chemical reactions going on in their bodies which generate energy
> will still be generating as much energy, but for a much smaller
> apparent mass, meaning that they'll be able to perform extrodinary
> feats (and quite possibly hurt themselves), and that the only way
> around this is to downscale everything else, which generates a
> very strange and inconsistent reality.
>
> What do other people think about this argument?

Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects. 

There's also the question as to whether or not gravitational mass and
inertial mass are the same thing. Last I heard, experiments had shown
that they were the same to with 1 part in something like 10^12, but
it's still an *assumption* that they are the same thing.

But assuming that you can live thru the process, then it'd be best to
ignore all the effects at the sub-molar level (ie molecular and lower).

This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:15:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:15:59 PST
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204011749.DDD03964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20402.181559.4K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
> effects when you modify Planck's constant.

Starting with minor things like matter as we know it not being possible
if you tweak it more than a *tiny* bit.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:17:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:17:51 PST
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204020013.g320DTU02643@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20402.181751.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
>> effects when you modify Planck's constant.
>
> Not talking about modifying Planck's constant. Only talking about
> modifying inertia. Tim introduced the idea of modifying Planck's
> constant as a device to keep strangeness from happening when
> inertia is modified, but I'm not 100% sure that inertial suppression
> would necessarily result in strangeness in the first place. Trying
> to get some thoughts on the matter.

The attraction between particles (molecules, etc) would be the same.
But their (effective) mass would be lower. Making the accelerations due
to the forces higher. Which would give the *effect* of making the
forces stronger.

That's why I said that it'd be best to just handwave all the stuff at
the molecular and lower layers. Dealing with the effects at the "gross"
(molar) level is gonna be hairy enough.

The only writers that have ever dealt with this that I can recall are
E.E. Smith in the Lensman series, and one small section of one of
Heinlein's Future History stories (the one that introduces the Howard
Familes, and which I cannot recall the title of)-:

I do like one idea of Smith's. Namely that you retain your original
velocity vector while "free". If you are doing partial neutralization,
things would get messier, but they'd still be doable. 

This provides a nice complication in that when you restore inertua, you
have to worry about which direction that vector point. If it's aimed at
a nearby solid object, Ouch!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:39:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:39:06 -0700
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> or look up flux compressors 
> 
> The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures 
> I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius 
> kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.
> 
> Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find
> anything.  OK, I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite
> terrorist building these? --

That's a very good question.  I've read speculation that they may 
have been used in some places, but I'd think the evidence would be 
pretty obvious (lots of fried computers).  At that point, I'm guessing 
that most terrorists want to see blood far more than lost data.

OTOH, I wonder if more some of the more hard-line 
environmentalist groups like Green Peace and Earth First know 
about these things, maybe I'll send them a link :)

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:42:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:42:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
 <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402213220.0287eec0@pop.wizard.net>

David Summers quoted me and wrote:
>At 4:20 AM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>>There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example. Paying 
>>passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them through the 
>>passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger areas of the 
>>ship.  Each keycard is unique to each passenger, and so the same card 
>>gets them into their own private cabin.  Crew will have similar cards, 
>>that give them more freedom, and exactly how much and which greater 
>>freedoms would depend on the crew member's billet.
>
>I really don't see the crew needing card to move about the ship. That is 
>going to get old in a hurry, could be a problem in an emergency, and is 
>unecessary.
I agree with your thesis expressed earlier that crew needs to be able to 
move about the ship on their duties unimpeded.  What I had in mind was 
keeping the passenger-only areas fenced off.  Crew will have to pass 
through access-control points entering and exiting passenger areas, but 
it's a pretty low-level annoyance.  Just wave their Crew ID Badge in the 
general direction of the hatch.  It's probably clipped to their sleeve or 
collar.

>In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go where 
>they shouldn't.  You wouldn't actually lock things unless they were 
>particularly sensitive or valuable or someone had leasure to get into 
>somplace they shouldn't (like an isolated closet).  This is similar to 
>what ships use today.

I _tried_ to go where I wasn't allowed when I was aboard a cruise ship 
about fifteen years ago.  All the doors/hatches were locked.  Crew had keys 
for the doors they normally needed access to.  This was before electronic 
keys or crypto keys were common; I mean the crew had traditional keys.  A 
lot of doors were locked from the passenger side but not from the crew 
side.  Crew usually had to either knock to gain access from the passenger 
side, or go around the long way to somewhere they could enter.  Unsecured 
doors usually had a _lot_ of crew in the immediate vicinity.  If someone 
steals an ocean liner they can do a lot of damage, but if someone steals a 
starship they can potentially do far more than that.  I'd think starships 
have more safeguards than ocean liners.  IMTU.  YMMV.  :->

I like to envision ship security levels that make a player character think 
and work and plan really hard to succeed at gaining control of a ship's 
bridge and engineering.  But still keep it possible.  It should be rare and 
one of the proudest illegal achievements a player can brag of.  Most RPGers 
I've known are far too casual and impulsive to have a ghost of a chance at 
success.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:55:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:55:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20402.180059.2g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204011745.g31Hji001663@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215009.0283aec0@pop.wizard.net>

Leonard Erickson, in replying to JimV said:

>BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
>higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
>artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
>playing "grav pong" with hijackers.
Sounds like we see it the same way.  Although +6 gees to -6 gees in less 
than one second should be sufficient grav pong to deal with most hijackers.

I've always wondered at the canonical lack of ships capable of 
accelerations far greater than 6 gees.  We subject astronauts and fighter 
pilots to accelerations between 4 and 6 gees, so you'd think that high 
performance military aircraft would be capable of accelerating many gees 
faster than their internal grav compensation can handle.  They accelerate 
at 10 gees, have 6 gees of that compensated, and a "felt acceleration" of 4 
gees.

>Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
>things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects.

Yeah, it's way too messy a pandora's box for me to consider it seriously.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:59:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:59:49 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net> <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20020403125949.A14872@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go
> where they shouldn't.

On one sea trip on a passenger ferry I went exploring the passenger
accessible areas, and ended up on the wrong side of a very impressive
looking "Authorized Personnel Only" sign hanging on a heavy chain for
emphasis.  The strange thing is, I never actually passed any such
signs to get to the wrong side of the chained-off region :)

I could easily see the same thing happening on a large passenger liner
in Traveller.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:04:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:04:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204030216.DFQ00018@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215722.02839ec0@pop.wizard.net>

>I know that there are a lot of people who like the big spinal
>mounts, but I've reduced the maximum tonnage of ships to a
>fairly linear plot from 5000 tons at TL 9 to 20,000 tons at
>TL 15 (CT/HG).  I'm also assuming that the larger the ship,
>the more likely that the jump drive will be problematic.
>This explains the use of relatively small ships (200 and 400
>ton) despite the fact that with either HG or MT, much larger
>ships should completely Microsoft, I mean, replace all
>smaller vessels.
>
>Also, I believe (John The Heretic) that abusing your jump
>drives leads to damage that is never really undone.

I like spinal mounts.  The combat advantages in fleet actions are so great 
that I think battles tend to go to whoever has the most spinal 
mounts.  Back when they were doing TCS tournaments at cons, I think that 
tended to be the consensus as well.

I like your ideas about jump number being a nominal spec that has to be 
worked at to achieve in the field.  But we need rules, man, rules.  I'm not 
sure I agree with the Microsoft theory of big ships eating little ships, 
but IMHO the canonical Traveller universe stretches the old credibility 
suspenders awfully far to have such a plethora of small merchant ships 
running around all the time instead of shipping being dominated by 5,000t 
and bigger vessels.  I'd be more inclined to agree with large shipping 
_corporations_ eating little ones.  Which is possibly a better description 
of what Microsoft does, anyway.

I am interested in permanent damage to jump drives when they are 
abused.  But again I need rules, man!  Exactly what constitutes 
abuse?  Exactly how do you determine the consequences of abuse?  How much 
of that damage can be repaired, and what is required to repair it?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:12:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:12:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
In-Reply-To: <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b8d0233486e4@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:41 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
>"David P. Summers" wrote:
>>
>>  In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
>>  tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
>>  arrays.....
>
>Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
>masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....

But the tags would be unforgeable based on the penguins DNA!  Clearly 
this would be justified based on the threat that penguins pose.  (How 
could the Imperium  claim to control their territory if penguins roam 
free?)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:12:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:12:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Reply Etiquette Flame (was: Galileo)
In-Reply-To: <20020403013707.22C1527A00@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402190656.00a4a160@mailhost.efn.org>

Todd Glenn wrote, in response to a post where I forgot to change the 
default subject (something I am normally very good about):

>It's even in the digest:
>
>"When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."

Nice of you to quote my entire message just to bitch about the subject 
line.  Especially when I'm one of those who does take care to trim his 
quotes, post below quoted material, not use Outlook or post MIME to the 
list, etc etc...

In closing, sir, you are invited to <biological function> yourself.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:21:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:21:11 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <3CAA7526.B59B63BA@mail.cswnet.com>

Timothy Little writes:
>Wow, the LBBs really do hit your wallet *hard*!  I suggest using some
>other design system if you want lower costs.  *Any* other design
>system.

Yeah, but what other design system lets you have...
[drum roll with trumpets]

		THE INFAMOUS ONE MAN SCOUT SHIP!

Besides, a real Traveller scoffs at mere Mcr's. Its the Tcr's
that we pay attention to...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:26:02 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <3CAA764A.60353DD6@mail.cswnet.com>

General Turokan writes:
>Open the pod bay doors Hal.

>I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now.

>Hal, open the pod bay doors.

>I'm sorry Dave.

>HAL! 

>Yes Dave.

>Hal, I've got to go to the bathroom!

>I'm sorry Dave

One [1] keyboard kill.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:25:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:25:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <200204030325.DFT00415@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says 

"I need rules, man"

OK.  Let's do this on the assumption that there is a maximum 
size of ship that can be sent through jump space at each TL.

Start at 1000 tons at TL 9 and work your way up to TL 15 (CT).

That's the first rule.  You go next.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:43:03 +1000
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
References: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001401c1dac2$798ed940$86b18b90@computer>

> From: John Groth 
> I don't know of kian stats in any game system.

<vague memory surfacing>

Try original (print) JTAS.

I can't check at the moment, alas.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:48:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:48:07 +1000
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
Message-ID: <001501c1dac2$7cd48e60$86b18b90@computer>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>      The more robots deal with humans or operate within a general human
> setting, the more likely they'll be the upright, bipedal, anthromorphic
> robots of classic sci-fi.  A two-legged, vaguely human shaped, robot with
> arms and hands will be preferred as a steward or medic by most folks over
a
> metal box on treads with tentacles.  Robots with "hands" will also be able
> to use the same utensils and tools the rest of the crew uses.
>      Robots in industrial settings will be far less anthromorphic, in
those
> settings function will drive form.

There will be one category of robot that will be pseudo-biological - the
good old "companion" bot - servant, secretary, and sex-toy.

They don't have to be especially bright, or particularly able to pass for
human in social settings, so they aren't necessarily _hugely_ expensive.
They still will be toys for the wealthy, though.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:32:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:32:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <20020403001628.32715.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402222929.02df3008@192.168.0.1>

At 10:16 AM 4/3/2002 +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
>Speaking of villians with english accents reminds me
>of a scene from Buffy:the vampire slayer. The english
>librarian nearly gets killed by a demon and somebody
>says:
>"I bet your whole life flashed before your eyes, cup
>of tea, cup of tea, nearly got shagged, cup of tea"
>ObTrav: Sneaky intelligence agents have french
>accents, even if they are Zhodani ;) Speaking of which
>what would a Zhodani accent be comparable too?

Well...given the 'canon' cold war setup, the Zho would have Russian Accents.
That would make their Vargr allies Cubans (picture a Vargr in fatigues with 
a cigar and an AK-47 and a thick Spanish accent).
Hmmm...Sword Worlders would be the various Eastern European Warsaw Pact 
countries.
Your basic heavy handed eastern European accent.



----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:40:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:40:48 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403134048.A15012@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> I think the original idea behind such expensive ships was to avoid
> having a Jetsons future where everyone can drive the family car to
> another planet for a weekend jaunt.

Actually, they didn't really succeed :)

Even in non-GURPS versions of Traveller, there are much cheaper
spacecraft than starships, some of them capable of reaching Mars from
Earth in a day or so.  Granted, even there they are far more expensive
than an average Hyundai, but nowhere near the cost of a jump-capable
craft.


>  They wanted to have put high, but not impossibly high, barriers to
> frequent travel between star systems.  Otherwise there's no reason
> to believe that each the civilizations on each planet will remain
> distinctly different from each other after 1,100 years of being in
> the same Imperium and rubbing elbows all the time.

I think there is.  The time barriers suffice, if nothing else.  With
typically available jump drives, it takes *years* to get across the
Imperium.  Even if those drives were dirt cheap.

Furthermore, each planet has *drastically* different environmental
conditions and resources; much more different than say France is from
Antartica.  The economic drivers will be radically different in
various systems, and won't merge just because vehicles are cheap.

Even if travel between stars was absolutely free of charge, it still
takes at least a week or two to get to the nearest neighbouring
system.  That alone presents a social barrier to homogenisation even
within a subsector, let alone a sector or the Imperium as a whole.

This includes military homogenisation: A fleet of battleships at Core,
no matter how powerful, is no good against a tiny pack of Vargr ships
in the Spinward Marches.  So some areas have recent incursions by
foreigners, and large military forces for their population.  Other
areas have not seen a warship in action for generations, and receive
tenth-hand news 6 months old from the nearest conflict.  If they care.


Which brings up the next point: species differences.  Even among the
variants of humaniti, there are significant differences.  Then there
are the non-human sentient races, with their own thought processes,
customs, physical requirements and preferred cultures.  To say nothing
of the enormous variety of non-sentient natural wildlife present only
on a particular planet.

And you have political differences, which I don't think are likely to
disappear.  People will almost certainly retain differences in belief.
If interstellar travel is cheap that just makes it easier for members
of different cultures to move somewhere else rather than try to
integrate.


I'm sorry, I just don't see how making starships cheap erases all
these things that factor into making a local culture significantly
different from others.  More than that, I don't see how inflating the
cost of inter*planetary* spacecraft adds anything at all to the
variety within the Imperium, let alone differences outside it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:49:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:49:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402213220.0287eec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
 <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402213220.0287eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <p04330106b8d02b8f7e5e@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:42 PM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>David Summers quoted me and wrote:
>>At 4:20 AM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>>>There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example. 
>>>Paying passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them 
>>>through the passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger 
>>>areas of the ship.  Each keycard is unique to each passenger, and 
>>>so the same card gets them into their own private cabin.  Crew 
>>>will have similar cards, that give them more freedom, and exactly 
>>>how much and which greater freedoms would depend on the crew 
>>>member's billet.
>>
>>I really don't see the crew needing card to move about the ship. 
>>That is going to get old in a hurry, could be a problem in an 
>>emergency, and is unecessary.
>I agree with your thesis expressed earlier that crew needs to be 
>able to move about the ship on their duties unimpeded.  What I had 
>in mind was keeping the passenger-only areas fenced off.  Crew will 
>have to pass through access-control points entering and exiting 
>passenger areas, but it's a pretty low-level annoyance.  Just wave 
>their Crew ID Badge in the general direction of the hatch.  It's 
>probably clipped to their sleeve or collar.

Well, some smaller ships have passenger areas in the middle of the 
ship and you have to pass through it to get from one end to the other.

If this isn't true, I think you might see some sort of basic restriction...

>
>>In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go 
>>where they shouldn't.  You wouldn't actually lock things unless 
>>they were particularly sensitive or valuable or someone had leasure 
>>to get into somplace they shouldn't (like an isolated closet). 
>>This is similar to what ships use today.
>
>I _tried_ to go where I wasn't allowed when I was aboard a cruise 
>ship about fifteen years ago.  All the doors/hatches were locked. 
>Crew had keys for the doors they normally needed access to.  This 
>was before electronic keys or crypto keys were common; I mean the 
>crew had traditional keys

OTOH, I was on a ship for a gambling cruise and the bridge, which was 
off the upper deck where the passengers went to sight see, wasn't 
locked (the reason you didn't go in there was the feeling that the 
people in there would object :-)

>I like to envision ship security levels that make a player character 
>think and work and plan really hard to succeed at gaining control of 
>a ship's bridge and engineering.

I think the crew will be their main obstacle.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:37:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:37:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402223515.02da9ec0@192.168.0.1>

At 06:39 PM 6/2/2002 -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> > or look up flux compressors
> > The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures
> > I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius
> > kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.
> > Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find
> > anything.  OK, I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite
> > terrorist building these? --
>That's a very good question.  I've read speculation that they may
>have been used in some places, but I'd think the evidence would be
>pretty obvious (lots of fried computers).  At that point, I'm guessing
>that most terrorists want to see blood far more than lost data.
>OTOH, I wonder if more some of the more hard-line
>environmentalist groups like Green Peace and Earth First know
>about these things, maybe I'll send them a link :)

They already have their own official terrorist wings, ELF & ALF (Earth 
Liberation Front & Animal Liberation Front) leading the FBI lists.

You probably don't want to have the FBI draw a line between you and them.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:54:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:54:45 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402225324.01f21ff0@mail.charter.net>

Loren had mentioned a Traveller specific version of the GURPS character 
generation software was being considered.

Is this project a go?  If so, when would it see the light of day?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
           http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:03:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:03:33 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com> <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <k9vkau413ehik68ii1a6tna2hhcq425icf@4ax.com>

On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:38:10 +1000, "Alan Bradley"
<abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:

>> From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
>> Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's
>> kind of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not =
doing
>> any more jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the
>> character becomes motivated to take this one, last job.
>
>In fact it's such a "classic bit" that I am considering playing it as a =
solo
>game.
>
>Unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable mission!  : (
>
>I've got a couple of ideas about how to run it, though.  They might be =
of
>interest to the other solo players on the list.
>
><SNIP>
>
>Success would come from mobilising your own possible assets, finding out=
 who
>else is in the game, thwarting their plans, and working towards your own
>devastating exercise in turning the tables on the jerks blackmailing =
you.
>
>The plot itself would be a McGuffin hunt, shaped by "just in time" =
random
>generation, plus incidents of "a man with a gun enters the room".  It =
could
>be hopelessly convoluted and pointless, or it could be The Maltese =
Falcon.
>Or The Millenium Falcon.
>
>Now all I need is the time and energy to develop these ideas...

I find myself in the role of Mr. Movie.  For a pretty nasty story
along these lines, take a look at the movie "Commando".  Our hero is
blackmailed into taking on an assassination for the villians, but
escapes before the plane takes off for the destination.  He then has a
fixed amount of time to chase down villain minions, learn where the
major villain is hiding and rescue the hostage.  Not too much
opportunity for character development, but a good action story.  From
a gaming standpoint, the tracking and interrogation of the henchmen
and most of the fighting could be the solo adventure.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:28:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:28:33 -0600
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net> <p04330105b8d0233486e4@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3CAA76E1.BA4A2BC6@premier.net>


"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
> At 7:41 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
> >"David P. Summers" wrote:
> >>
> >>  In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
> >>  tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
> >>  arrays.....
> >
> >Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
> >masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....
> 
> But the tags would be unforgeable based on the penguins DNA!  Clearly
> this would be justified based on the threat that penguins pose.  (How
> could the Imperium  claim to control their territory if penguins roam
> free?)

Then the penguins merely graft a patch of non-penguin-waterfowl skin and
feathers to the tag attachment point (ideally waterfowl generally
engaged as tramp freighters or system defense birds), change the tag
code to suit the new DNA and proceed on their marauding ways.... ;-)

The struggle between measure and countermeasure is a never-ending one,
as neither side is likely to gain lasting superiority.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:26:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:26:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020402.202649.-8353.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:26:02 -0600 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
> General Turokan writes:
> >Open the pod bay doors Hal.
>  >I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now.
>  >Hal, open the pod bay doors.
>  >I'm sorry Dave.
>  >HAL! 
>  >Yes Dave.
>  >Hal, I've got to go to the bathroom!
>  >I'm sorry Dave
> 
> One [1] keyboard kill.
> 
> Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

Thanks Dan, my first keyboard kill scored.

Woooooooohooooooo!!

I guess I'm out of the Rookie status now.

Gee, how many more till I can earn Flight Officer?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:13:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:13:41 -0800
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <20020402194040.7979a578.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
 <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402201259.009ec960@mindspring.com>

At 07:40 PM 4/2/02 +0200, you wrote:
>Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
>food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
>predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
>for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world under
>the ice.

Jedi Jellyfish Under The Ice!  I love it!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets.
                                 - Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:44:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:44:29 +1000
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS That's just nasty...
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C178F5@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

From Paul:
I saw a special on the toob some time ago about these
two women who started a business cleaning up after the
police were done at murder scenes.  They contracted
either to the insurance co or mortgage co.  They would
go in and make a nasty place livable again.

Not my idea of fun employment.

From Me:
In Oz we have this funeral service that mostly employs female ex nurses
dressed in white. I forget their name (something like the white sisters -
but less Aryan than that). They figured that with emotions running high in
the immediate hours after a death that the ladies, who have skills in
calming people down, and who have come to collect the bodies, was a good
thing. I remember seeing an interview where the ladies would turn up and
relatives would be on the front lawn screaming over who was getting
'grandma's antique bed spread', and the ladies would have to calm things
down.  

I would think being on Highway patrol/Ambulance would be messed up. I
remember stats about suicides/depression amongst crews that regularly attend
road accidents being statistically aberrant (something like double their
less highway inclined colleagues). I think the some Police Services in Oz
roster members on attending road deaths for like only a month a year because
of this. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:45:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204030325.DFT00415@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402225752.027fbae0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon, that fiendish b*st*rd, wrote:
>laning says
>
>"I need rules, man"
>
>OK.  Let's do this on the assumption that there is a maximum
>size of ship that can be sent through jump space at each TL.
>
>Start at 1000 tons at TL 9 and work your way up to TL 15 (CT).
>
>That's the first rule.  You go next.


LOL!   :->

Umm, okay.

Canonically, the largest possible starship is 1,000,000 under CT LBB 5, and 
TL does not limit hull size itself.  Theoretical jump drive capacity goes 
to jump-2 at TL 11, then increases by one jump number for each TL increase 
after that.  TLs beyond TL 15 are still capped at jump-6 capacity.

You gave the largest standard-sized hull according to LBB 2 as the maximum 
size that be sent through jump space at TL 9.  For fun, let's give the 
largest hull that can be built in LBB 2 as the TL 10 limit.  That's 5,000 tons.

If it isn't rude, I'll skip ahead (may be more pleasantly viewed with 
fixed-width font):
TL 9     1,000 tons
TL 10    5,000 tons
TL 11   10,000 tons
TL 12   50,000 tons
TL 13  100,000 tons
TL 14  500,000 tons
TL 15  One million tons

This may confer additional large battle advantages in TCS to the side with 
a TL advantage.  Probably only small advantages at TL 12+.  Just so long as 
you can include a powerful spinal mount weapon, that should keep you in the 
running even if your opponent has a somewhat better spinal mount 
weapon.  Try to outnumber your enemy if you can't outclass him.

The larger ships will also have an armor advantage.  Reasonable people 
disagree over how significant armor is in TCS situations.

Only higher tech levels will be capable of using large planetoid hulls.

Let's see, the Imperial-average TL is 12.  If we assume that a significant 
number of Imperial naval vessels will be built and maintained at TL 12 
facilities, then the largest hull that they will be able to use for a 
starship is 50,000 tons.  50,000 tons times 13.5 meters^3 per ton means a 
volume of 675,000 cubic meters.  Which would mean a borg-like cube about 87 
meters per dimension.  Or a thousand meters long, by 27 meters high by 25 
meters wide.

A planetoid hull can use only 60,000 tons and the rest is "wasted" on 
structural integrity.  A buffered planetoid hull "wastes" 35%, so it would 
only be able to use 39,000 tons of its volume for ship components, cargo, 
and fuel.

Caveat:  I was going by first edition of LBB 5 - High Guard.  Second 
edition might have different numbers for hulls and jump capacities, but I 
doubt it.

Also, it bothers me that I'm adding another rule/table to keep track of 
during ship design.

Now for the thorny part.  What does one have to do to a ship to get it's 
full jump capability out of it?  Roll dice?  Spend more per ton of jump 
drive?  Install fancy computers?  Other?  And the details of implementing 
that.  Can the jump capability decline over time even though it has not 
been battle damaged and is being properly maintained?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:43:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:43:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS That's just nasty...
Message-ID: <200204030443.DFV01354@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hughes, Michael" says
>Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS That's just nasty...  
>To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
>
>I would think being on Highway patrol/Ambulance would be 
>messed up. I remember stats about suicides/depression 
>amongst crews that regularly attend road accidents being 
>statistically aberrant (something like double their
>less highway inclined colleagues). I think the some Police 
>Services in Oz roster members on attending road deaths for 
>like only a month a year because of this. 
>
"The Night Rider.  Remember him when you look up into the 
night sky..."
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:10:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:10:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <200204030510.DFV03007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning <laning@wizard.net>  
<snip size limits>

I think that limiting people to smaller ships really gives us 
the "small ship" Traveller.  So...

>
>Now for the thorny part.  What does one have to do to a ship 
>to get it's full jump capability out of it? 

For the first ten jumps (shakedown), roll 10+ to achieve the 
design jump rating, DM Average Engineering Skill Level of 
crew, maximum DM 4.  You must use refined fuel for these 
calibration jumps.  Failure results in a jump reduced by 1 
parsec per point failed.  This means that shipyards have to 
have rescue/refuelling ships ready to save shakedown failures.

Average the performance over the shakedown, and round up.  
This is the true Jump rating.  Note that in some cases, the 
military will not accept delivery of a ship that takes enough 
fuel for Jump-4 to only do a Jump-3.

Straight rule -- ships displacing 5000 tons or less roll for 
shakedown on a 6+, not 10+. 

Remedy:  Replace the jump drives.  See how expensive this is 
getting?

>Can the jump capability decline over time even though it has 
>not been battle damaged and is being properly maintained?
>

On the misjump roll, in addition to CT DMs
-1 DM for every 10 years of drive age.
-1 DM for every hit on the Jump drives if repaired
-2 DM for every hit on the Jump drives not repaired (running 
with battle damage)
-1 DM for every prior slight or minor misjump, even if 
repaired.
-4 DM for every prior major misjump (after repairs)
-1 DM if drive is not performing to design.

Misjump itself is not just "randomly trip to nowhere".

I see slight, minor, major, and catastrophic misjumps.

Fail misjump roll by 
1 = slight, ship misses destination by 1D6 x 0.1 parsec
2 = minor, same as jumping short during shakedown
3 = major, same as standard misjump
5 = catastrophic, you never come out of hyperspace

Note that some captains might feel it worth the risk.  Some 
old traders are probably the equivalent of the African Queen.

Replacing jump drives involves recalibration, which means the 
shakedown happens again.

I think that there should be a minimum separation distance 
when using jump drives.  Think of that B5 episode where they 
open a hyperspace portal from a White Star when they already 
were in an open gate.  Two ships too close to each other are 
already shredding space/hyperspace, and that has to have an 
effect.  Might make a good suicide maneuver for a smaller 
destroyer who is trying to kill a battlerider fleeing the 
field.

Additional Misjump DMs
- Jump Rating of Nearby Ship Using Jump Drive (100 km)
- Missile Factor if Nuclear Missiles hit during jump 
initiation

Unlike the so-called "jump flash", I really really like the 
way that going into/out of hyperspace looked in B5.  
Aesthetically pleasing.  Plus, everyone gets some warning 
that a jump point is forming.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 00:14:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <20020403134048.A15012@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402235745.00acdde0@pop.wizard.net>

>I'm sorry, I just don't see how making starships cheap erases all
>these things that factor into making a local culture significantly
>different from others.  More than that, I don't see how inflating the
>cost of inter*planetary* spacecraft adds anything at all to the
>variety within the Imperium, let alone differences outside it.

I don't thing making starships cheap _erases_ all the good and excellent 
factors that you cited from the equation.  But making them expensive does 
_enhance_ the isolation of cultures on different worlds.  I think it is a 
significant difference, and (maybe) arguably enough of a difference that 
prudent game designers wanted to take advantage of it.  I note that Loren 
has been with this game since before the beginning, and also is line editor 
for GT, and you say that jump drive prices in GT appear to be the same as 
in CT.  There may be a reason for that.

As you've already seen, I'm not that afraid of changing things.  I want to 
lower starship costs by a couple of orders of magnitude, mostly because I 
rely on those other good and excellent factors you cited.

I differ over whether interplanetary spacecraft have inflated costs in all 
versions of Traveller except for GT.  Perhaps it seems so to someone coming 
to Traveller first through GURPS Traveller, but bear in mind that GT is the 
fifth major version of Traveller and all four previous versions began with 
and maintained the same approximate price schedules for ship building.

Perhaps GT is deflationary, rather than all other Traveller 
inflationary?  :->  It's a point-of-view thing.  Only with the benefit of 
hindsight and being GT-centric do we come to the view of previous Traveller 
versions as being inflationary.  I have no problem with GT being so 
different on this, it's all a matter of taste.  Not even TNE managed to be 
really hard science, and all other versions even less so.  We're all 
arguing over angels on the head of a pin, really.  How much does it cost to 
build a power plant or a thruster plate?  Whatever I say it does, 
IMTU.  Whatever you say it does, IYTU.  :->

AFAIK, it will never be possible to build thruster plates, so who can say 
their cost.  AFAIK, nobody can say how cheap, safe, easy to operate fusion 
power plants can be made to provide incredibly abundant energy or how they 
would be designed and constructed, so who can say their cost.  Probably, 
there is no way to ever do it.  Put 'em in gumball machines if it makes YTU 
happy, is what I say.  Which should generate at least one good SF short story.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:18:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:18:19 -0800
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
In-Reply-To: <E16s3jE-0001h7-00@pluto2.runbox.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402211746.00ac7870@mail.verizon.net>

Me too!  ;-)

Charles McKnight
res0i3sf@verizon.net



At 03:28 PM 4/1/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Any chance of seeing these?
>
>Beth
>
> > I'd be interested to see this...
> >
> > In days past I used to write such manuals for a live-role-playing game
> > based on 25th century space marines. These included a medical manual, EOD
> > procedures and even the Uniform Code of Military Justice (a guaranteed
> > cure for insommnia!).
> >
> > Hugs and kisses,
> >
> > Mexal,
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:20:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:20:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
In-Reply-To: <200203310432.DAH01551@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402211958.00ab2190@mail.verizon.net>

Hi John,

I'd appreciate an opportunity to look it over.

Thanks!

Charles McKnight
res0i3sf@verizon.net

At 11:32 PM 3/30/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Just finished going through what will be a rather long
>document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units
>in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may
>differ.
>
>But..  I need more input.  I've just moved a current day
>document a fair number of years into the future (out to TL10,
>so far), and I would like to take it a bit further, say TL12.
>
>I am interested in anyone's input concerning what might be
>standard operating procedure (instructions to individual
>soldiers, teams, and platoons).  Some of the detail I have is
>down to the items to carry.
>
>I am especially interested in what might be SOP in regards to
>weapons, employment of specific weapons (such as, "always use
>the plasma gun to break contact").
>
>I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing
>to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages
>so far.
>________________
>Do you think my being stronger and
>faster has anything to do with my
>muscles in this place?...Do you think
>that's air that you are breathing?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:29:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:29:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20402.180059.2g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 02, 2002 06:00:59 PM
Message-ID: <200204030529.g335TAO02739@localhost.uia.net>

Leonard writes:
> Inertial *compensation* exists in Traveller. Inertial
> *suppression/neutralization* is a different matter.

So if you're crusing at 6G, and your inertial conpensators
crap out all of a sudden, watch out :-)

Probably there's some sort of automated cut-off for that
sort of situation, but it's odd that we don't see the floor/wall
field generators or their power usage in any of the design specs.
Then again, we don't see the light bulbs either, so perhaps they're
cheap and energy efficient.

> True inertia neutralization (or suppression) changes F=ma to F=kma
> where k is a constant (or variable) determined by the degree of
> neutralization. 
> 
> In effect, you are changing the inertial mass of the objects in
> question. If this was what was happening in Traveller, then you
> couldn't throw a ball across a compartment. As soon as you quit
> pushing, the air resistance would stop it. 

But the air molecules would also have a lower inertia, so they'd
be easier to sweep aside. In short, since both the air and the ball
are both effected equally by inertial suppression, they'd both behave
normally.

Imagine two balls on a pool table. Now imagine them made out of
styrofoam. Impart one with a given velocity, so it strikes it's
neighbor, and it should react just like a normal pool ball
(particularly if we take away the pool table and put them in
a vacuum... this isn't a cheat, all I'm saying is that the
kinetic energy transfer should result in the exact same outcome
regardless of the degree of inertial neutralization).

But, as you say in a later post, the energy of forces might seem
stronger under inertial suppression. Well, is that really the
case? A change in gravity should produce no difference, as
masses fall at the same speed, all other things being equal.
If I drop a feather in a vacuum, and a drop a rock in a
vacuum, they should both fall at the same speed. So I don't
think that changing inertia should effect how an object behaves
with respect to the gravitational force. What about the weak,
strong, and EM forces?

> Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
> things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects. 

In what way?

> There's also the question as to whether or not gravitational mass and
> inertial mass are the same thing. Last I heard, experiments had shown
> that they were the same to with 1 part in something like 10^12, but
> it's still an *assumption* that they are the same thing.

It may be that both inertia and gravity are linked to the zero
point field and/or space-time curvature. I don't know enough
physics to lend any ideas on the topic, but I can forward you
some articles on it pulled from New Scientist if you'd be
interested in a quick read.

> But assuming that you can live thru the process, then it'd be best to
> ignore all the effects at the sub-molar level (ie molecular and lower).

Can't do this.
 
> This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
> work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
> viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.

Except that your heart would also be of a lower apparent mass.
Instead of thinking of a normal pool ball hitting a styrofoam ball,
think of one styrofoam ball hitting another one. On the molecular
scale, I'm guessing that this would be more akin to what would be
happening. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:40:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:40:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> from "John T. Kwon" at Apr 02, 2002 05:22:44 PM
Message-ID: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>

> One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the 
> price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial 
> cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very 
> much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be 
> possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for 
> mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the 
> fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator 
> runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to 
> ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of 
> the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.

That and a lack of dirt. Actually, with cheap energy (ala fusion),
transportation costs would probably plummet as well. I remember
reading a book of short stories back in high school, and in one
of them, the author posited that nuclear fusion created an era
of plenty where people struggled to be good consumers (comsuming
as much of everything as they could so as to keep the econony
humming along... consuming became an occupation in itself). I
thought the conclusion was rather silly, but the question raised
(what would the world be like with cheap energy?) was certainly
interesting, and it's something which I haven't really seen
explored beyond the most superficial level. What would the
world be like if supply so outstripped demand that the vast
majority of people would no longer have to work. In a way, we're
living it (not meaning to start a flamewar over social policy, but
it's my intuition that welfare recipients today probably live
better than their hard working ancestors of centuries past), but
imagine the trend were extended such that everyone could live
in idle luxury, and only a small percentage of the population
need be employeed. What would that be like? I can't even scratch
the surface of potential ramifications. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:49:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:49:54 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <E16sWO7-0004I7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 02:04:52PM -0800
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16sWO7-0004I7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020402224954.B10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 02:04:52PM -0800, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> > (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> > 
> > 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
> 
> In Jeopardy mode:
> 
> Heretics for 100: Who is Galileo

I should note that the Catholic Church's issues with Galileo were not
his science but rather his theology.  The man took the heliocentric
idea (developed, IIRC, by a Catholic priest) and drew incorrect
theological conclusions therefrom.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Wouldn't you love to fill out _that_ report?  `Company asset #423423 was
lost while fighting the forces of evil.'                   --Chris Adams

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:53:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:53:56 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #372 - 42 msgs
In-Reply-To: <B8CF87E8.342AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 04:08:08PM -0800
References: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402155400.00a4c780@mailhost.efn.org> <B8CF87E8.342AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020402225356.C10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> "When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."

Still more proof that digest mode is a work of the devil...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The power of Satan is as nothing before the might of the Lord, so don't
go getting any ideas.                             --I Abyssinians 20:20

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:03:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:03:11 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:30:25PM -0500
References: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se> <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020402230311.D10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:30:25PM -0500, laning wrote:
>
> I am on both sides of the fence (I'm like Jeremy the Nowhere Man in
> 'Yellow Submarine' or the Scarecrow in 'The Wizard of Oz').  I
> sympathize with Harlan Ellison and others.  I also feel strongly
> that sharing knowledge has less value to the human race if the
> knowledge is only shared with those who can pay for it.  The
> Internet is a great democratizer of knowledge sharing.  (It's more a
> socialist thing than a democracy thing, but it's not generally
> acceptable in the States to express it that way.)

The ideal solution, of course, is for those of a moral bent to produce
their own, superior, IP and publish it openly.  Much like New Riders
do with their books (all, AFAIK, available under an open license) and
the GNU project do with theirs.  As unto the software hoarders, so
unto all IP hoarders.

Incidentally, the Open Content License <http://www.opencontent.org/>
makes provisions for author approval of significantly modified
versions (e.g. some of the nastier forms of fanfic), and for
interested parties to retrieve original versions of the work.

And yes, I release my Traveller code <http://travtrack.sf.net/> under
the GPL.  Thereby putting my money where my mouth is.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ubi non accusator, ibi non judex.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:11:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:11:14 +0100
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
References: <200204030529.g335TAO02739@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <007301c1dad6$5c23ef80$52200050@matt>

Just a though, but wouldn't the inertial compensation in Traveller consist
of using grav plates to create a grav pull of 1G les than the accelleration
on a reciprocal vector?

Assuming decks at right angles to thrust, if you accelerate at 6G create a
5G field in the ceiling... voil, effectively 1G felt by occupants... (other
orientations will require G-Plates to generate G at other angles, but heck,
they are made of Handwavium anyway...)

Or am I getting this completely wrong?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:21:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:21:10 -0700
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402223515.02da9ec0@192.168.0.1>; from eclipse@urbin.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 10:37:18PM -0500
References: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402223515.02da9ec0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020402232110.F10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 10:37:18PM -0500, Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> They already have their own official terrorist wings, ELF & ALF (Earth 
> Liberation Front & Animal Liberation Front) leading the FBI lists.

Who have, incidentally, killed people.  They are not heroes of any
sort or kind, and deserve to be hunted to the ends of the earth.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I have sustained a continual bombardment & cannonade for 24 hours & have
not lost a man.  The enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion,
otherwise the garrison are to be put to the sword if the fort is taken.
I have answered the demand with a cannon shot, and our flag still waves
proudly from the walls.  I shall never surrender nor retreat.
                                         --William B. Travis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:25:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:25:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Information, please:  Kians
Message-ID: <200204030622.g336MGh15548@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
...
>     Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
>kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
>pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
>Cavalry.
>     Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?

  JTAS #9, per the "JTAS Index" from Jim V., posted 1 Mar 2002?

  Grenadier did a mini for `em, too :>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:24:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:24:43 -0700
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>; from jimv@uia.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:40:53PM -0800
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020402232443.G10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:40:53PM -0800, jimv wrote:
>
> In a way, we're living it (not meaning to start a flamewar over
> social policy, but it's my intuition that welfare recipients today
> probably live better than their hard working ancestors of centuries
> past)

Hell, the great majority of the poor in the USA are better off than
the great majority of mankind ever.  Obesity is a greater problem than
starvation.  Most own colour TVs; many own cars.  The poverty of the
American is the wealth of just about anyone at just about any other
time in history.

Not that there are not those who suffer in real poverty, of course.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home and leave us in
peace.  We seek not your counsel, nor your arms.  Crouch down and lick
the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our
country men.                                        --Samuel Adams

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:44:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:44:34 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402225752.027fbae0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <014b01c1dadb$03f89400$52200050@matt>

> Canonically, the largest possible starship is 1,000,000 under CT LBB 5,
and

No, its 1,000,000dton+...

The tonnage listed for a size category is the lower bound, the upper bound
being one dton less than the lower bound of the next size category. For the
1,000,000 dTon category there is no next category, so no upper bound.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:58:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:58:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aliens Among Us
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEGACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

This week in JTAS online is an excellent article that I would like to
recommend to everyone:

Aliens Among Us, by James Maliszewski
Another installment of Travellers' Tales

If you don't subscribe to JTAS online, you should.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:46:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:46:56 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices [long]
References: <200204030510.DFV03007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAAB370.B2E1DE88@premier.net>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> laning <laning@wizard.net>
> <snip size limits>
> 
> I think that limiting people to smaller ships really gives us
> the "small ship" Traveller.  So...
> 
> >
> >Now for the thorny part.  What does one have to do to a ship
> >to get it's full jump capability out of it?
> 
> For the first ten jumps (shakedown), roll 10+ to achieve the
> design jump rating, DM Average Engineering Skill Level of
> crew, maximum DM 4.  You must use refined fuel for these
> calibration jumps.  Failure results in a jump reduced by 1
> parsec per point failed.  This means that shipyards have to
> have rescue/refuelling ships ready to save shakedown failures.
> 
> Average the performance over the shakedown, and round up.
> This is the true Jump rating.  Note that in some cases, the
> military will not accept delivery of a ship that takes enough
> fuel for Jump-4 to only do a Jump-3.

Based on this specification, and assuming an average Engineering skill
of 2 (rather generous, given the large engineer contingents on
cruiser-sized vessels), an AHL-class Fleet Intruder would almost
certainly fail to achieve the designed 5-parsec range.  With an average
Engineering skill of 2, an AHL would require a roll of 8+ per jump, for
10 jumps.  There is a 15/36 (41.67%) chance per jump of meeting spec;
this means that for each calibration jump, there is a 21/36 (58.33%)
chance of failing by at least one point.  The average failure will be by
2 points, and your formula gives no bonus for exceeding the required
roll.  Assuming average results, we can expect there to be four
successful rolls (J-5 for each) and six failed rolls (with an expected
average of J-3).  20 + 18 / 10 gives an expected average performance of
J-3.8 (rounded up to J-4); this is 80% of the design performance of an
AHL-class Fleet Intruder.  Note that ships designed for J-4 will
generally only meet J-3 (75% of spec).

To use a modern analogy: the design speed for a WW II-era
_Cleveland_-class CL (the most numerous cruiser class ever built) was 33
knots.  Given your formula, it would be surprising to find a _Cleveland_
that could do over 26.4 knots (80% of 33 knots).  Further, even if the
first ship, or even the first three ships, of the class made design
speed, each additional example of the class would still be likely to be
limited to 26.4 knots.  The above assumes that a _Cleveland_-class CL is
equivalent to a J-5 ship.  If we assume that a _Cleveland_ is equivalent
to a J-4 vessel, we can conclude that the majority of such ships could
only make 24.75 knots (as opposed to a design speed of 33 knots). 
Clearly, this degree of variation from spec is unacceptable for a
production run of ships.

I would suggest that these rules apply to prototype ships (including the
requirement to replace jump drives [presumably of a slightly different
design]).  Once the bugs have been worked out of a design (i.e., at
least one ship of the class has performed to-spec, and the operational
reports have been forwarded to the designing shipyard), ships of a given
class should receive a positive modifier (I'd suggest +4; with an
average Engineering skill of 2, this gives a failure chance of 1/12 per
jump, with 2/3 of failures being only -1) to each roll; ships built by
yards other than the designing yard would receive an additional -1 until
they had built 1D ships that met jump specifications.  A natural roll of
2 is an automatic failure, regardless of modifiers.  IMPORTANT: **Any
ships begun during development stage of a given class would be treated
as prototypes.**  Given this last stipulation, few designs would go into
series production until the prototype was debugged.  This would serve to
limit the proliferation of new designs during times of crisis.

My suggestions would mean that it would take some effort to work the
bugs out of a prototype.  Few ships would be built of a given class
until the bugs had been worked out, and the designing shipyard would
receive the bulk of orders.

I would also suggest that the building yard must bear 1/2 of the cost to
bring an in-production ship up to spec; the ordering authority would
bear the entire cost to develop a prototype.  Naturally, a new design
proposed by a shipyard (as opposed to a new design requested by a buyer)
would require the designing shipyard to bear the entire cost of
prototype development. Note that, by requiring the ordering authority to
bear at least some of the cost, the ordering authority is encouraged to
use highly-trained crews for development and shakedowns.  This reflects
the "test pilot" mentality of those involved in developing a new class
of ship....
> 
> Straight rule -- ships displacing 5000 tons or less roll for
> shakedown on a 6+, not 10+.

I would use this as the rule for prototype ships of this size;
production models would gain the additional +4 (-1 if built by a yard
other than the designing yard).  This would allow smaller ships to be
developed more quickly and produced more rapidly once developed. 
Obviously, designing new classes of large ships would be much more
costly than designing new classes of smaller vessels.

Amortized ships (i.e., those assigned a "type" designation in CT LBB2 or
Supp7 [Type A/A1 Free Trader, Type A2 Far Trader, Type C Mercenary
Cruiser, Type CE Close Escort, Type J Seeker, Type M Subsidized Liner,
Type R Subsidized Merchant, Type S Scout/Courier, Type T Patrol Cruiser,
Type X Xboat, Type XT Xboat Tender and Type Y Yacht]) would not require
shakedown rolls at all.  Equivalent standard ships published in non-CT
rulesets are considered as amortized.  A design not assigned a "type"
designation would be considered amortized once at least 1000 ships of
that class had been successfully (i.e., to-spec) built in that TU.
> 
> Remedy:  Replace the jump drives.  See how expensive this is
> getting?

Under my approach, this would be common for prototype ships (thus adding
to the development costs), as the best jump drive configuration was
worked out by experience. I would also suggest that jump drive
replacement during development would cost 150% of the normal jump drive
replacement cost (after all, you have to pull the old drive out and
possibly modify the ship to mount the new drive).  Production ships
would rarely need to have drives replaced, as the prototypes would have
already determined the optimal drive configuration for that class;
failures to make spec would thus be considered as resulting from
defective or (in the case of ships built by yards other than the
designing yard) inappropriate jump drives.  Cost in the latter case
would be 125% of normal drive replacement cost.
> 
> >Can the jump capability decline over time even though it has
> >not been battle damaged and is being properly maintained?
> >
> 
> On the misjump roll, in addition to CT DMs
> -1 DM for every 10 years of drive age.
> -1 DM for every hit on the Jump drives if repaired
> -2 DM for every hit on the Jump drives not repaired (running
> with battle damage)
> -1 DM for every prior slight or minor misjump, even if
> repaired.
> -4 DM for every prior major misjump (after repairs)
> -1 DM if drive is not performing to design.

I would allow +1 per ship overhaul (10x cost of annual maintenance, and
requiring 1D/2 months); this bonus can only cancel penalties listed
above.  Replacing the jump drive would cancel all penalties listed above
(but, as noted below, would require recalibration).  Government-owned
vessels would probably undergo overhaul at least every five years
(upgrades would be installed at this time, as applicable).
> 
> Misjump itself is not just "randomly trip to nowhere".
> 
> I see slight, minor, major, and catastrophic misjumps.
> 
> Fail misjump roll by
> 1 = slight, ship misses destination by 1D6 x 0.1 parsec
> 2 = minor, same as jumping short during shakedown
> 3 = major, same as standard misjump
> 5 = catastrophic, you never come out of hyperspace

While I like the idea of this table, I don't altogether care for the
results.  I would suggest that slight and minor misjumps include a
temporal option along with their spatial option.  In other words, the
referee could assign time distortions in lieu of (or along with) the
spatial errors listed above.  After all, missing by .6 parsec can be
even worse than missing by a full parsec; a full-parsec miss could put
the ship in proximity to a different system, while a .6 parsec misjump
guarantees that the ship will be about 2 light-years from any system
(given a 1-parsec hex map).
> 
> Note that some captains might feel it worth the risk.  Some
> old traders are probably the equivalent of the African Queen.
> 
> Replacing jump drives involves recalibration, which means the
> shakedown happens again.

Again, for production-series ships, I would allow the modifiers
suggested above.
> 
<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:15:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:15:49 +1000
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020403181549.A15722@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> imagine the trend were extended such that everyone could live in
> idle luxury, and only a small percentage of the population need be
> employeed. What would that be like?

I suspect that people's idea of "luxury" would then extend to things
that take work to achieve.  If on welfare you can afford a new car
every year, then those who are employed (possibly in a 20-hour working
week) might be able to afford a new *starship* each year.  Or at least
a new *luxury* transport instead of an average model that merely gets
you from A to B in the spartan style of the early 21st century
"luxury" limousines.


I'm more interested in the *next* step: what if nobody needs to work
at all?  That is, what if anything that humans can do, some form of
machines can do just as well without needing humans to tell them how?

Unlike a number of science fiction authors, I am *far* from convinced
that the result would be a utopian society where your every whim could
be satisfied.  Even in the extreme case where you've got a universal
machine capable of doing anything that a human can do, you still need
a *lot* of them to do anything that a society as a whole can do.  Even
in the case where you've got a universal factory, it still needs the
appropriate designs, materials, energy, and time.  At least one of the
first three would probably belong to someone else, and so you've still
got scarcity of some sort.  Chances are that time is also not
unlimited.

In fact, I can imagine that a society with such advanced technology
might simply discount the value of human labour to near-zero.  The
rate of return on invested capital might be quite good, but if you've
got nothing to begin with and can't earn much through work then you're
in a bit of a bind.  You might not starve, but you'll have to acquire
capital via other means if you want to join the set of wealthy people
who actually have stuff other people want.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:05:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:05:54 -0800
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
>
>I'm drawing a blank for "zh" speakers.  Places that are vaguely middle
>eastern or central asian come to mind for some reason, but nothing
specific.

Mandarin has a lot of "zh", but Zdetl is not a tonal language.  Some of the
Slavic languages (Polish comes to mind) have insane consonant strings like
Zdetl.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:05:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:05:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEGBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>
>I find myself in the role of Mr. Movie.  For a pretty nasty story
>along these lines, take a look at the movie "Commando".  Our hero is
>blackmailed into taking on an assassination for the villians, but

"You're a funny man, Smelly.  I like you.  Dat's vhy I kill you lest."
Colonel John Matrix was named Father of the Year by Soldier of Fortune
magazine that year.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:54:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:54:53 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEMAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Like I would guess many peoples did, 
MTU (tm) just grew, accreting layers 
and lumps as bright shiny things 
attracted my eyes.

Well I've decided to do a new one up right.
thinking about what final conditions I want 
then deciding what conditions are needed to 
create them.  

What I want

a distant and non intrusive Imperium, with a 
vaguely libertarian outlook.

a low powered environment, PC's are low level 
players on the galactic scene.

The campaign is on a frontier, a la Spinward
 Marches

book two sized and powered ships are normal
(without necessarily using LBB two starship 
design), economic and physical forces work 
against large ships.

Mil spec toys are rare

Prices and rewards are at a level where 
a party could in game earn enough money to 
make down payment on a used starship and 
then keep up payments.

the interstellar iconology is healthy enough 
that a backwater system is looking at 10 or 
so ships a week (recalling that most ships 
tend to be small)

Mega-corps exist, but are far more important 
along main trade routes and major systems.

Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop 
2 worlds


Conditions

The imperium is interested in external defense, 
surveying and mapping, stable currency, internal 
communications.

Imperial taxes are very low.

Imperial currency is very stable, currency drafts are
excepted Imperium wide.  Local currency is
much less flexible and much less used.  

As an exception to the libertarianism of the Imperium, 
building large (spinal mount sized ) weapons is very 
restricted.  Likewise, brute force invasions of 
neighboring worlds is discouraged.

Most systems military is Coast Guard, National Guard 
level stuff.  They are oriented to stopping raiders 
and internal affairs.  

The Scout service is canon and very important, both 
as a survey operation and a communications office

While they can feed them selves, few systems are fully 
self supporting in other areas, lacks and shortfalls 
are usually obtainable within a susbsector, with smaller 
ships this tends to pump up ship traffic.

Development is concentrated in most cases to the main planet 
in system, the rest is unpatrolled and poorly explored.

Way / refueling stations exist in marginal systems where there 
are no colonies.  These system are very poorly explored, and 
lacking nice places for humans to live.

The average campaign world is TL 12 and are lower end 
population, 5 - 8 (Population is the population living 
in system, on both sides of the of the XT line and 
including permanently stationed troops.  Any fancy 
arrangement is described in the system listing)

High tech and high population world are hubs supporting 
surrounding lower tech and pop worlds.  Trade is usually 
surrounding -- Hub, and Hub -- Hub

Absent local conditions against it, most worlds have 
about a type C space port.  Spaceports have the maintenance 
ability one level higher then their build ability. 

Ships last a long time, absent combat damage and with 
proper maintenance, a 200 year old freighter is still 
functional.

Technology is stable, the rough edges have been 
worn off most standard designs centuries ago.

The Imperium makes public domain standardized plans for 
many thing available.  While local peculiarities exist, 
a surprisingly large number of items are standardized 
imperium wide. (unless of course it is for a plot point)

Pirates exists, not as ECMs but as semi organized groups 
in the fringes of the system.  A lot of time and effort 
of the local navies is spent chasing them down.
________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:34:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:34:26 +0200
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403123426.04d59074.jenry023@student.liu.se>

laning wrote:
> By the way, Jens, have you read Hal Clement's 'Mission of Gravity'?  A 
> great example of intelligent alien life forms evolving on a world
extremely 
> different from Terra.  A just plain extreme world, in fact.  Clement
opens 
> the hood and lets us peer into a lot of the alien building he does.  The

> book's a classic, in fact.

Nope, I haven't. And I doubt that the library has that book in stock. I've
placed it on the list of books to look for now, though.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:49:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:49:22 +1000
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Robots from Dragon/Book 8
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17904@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Hey TMLers,

I recently crunched a remake of the Dragon Article on Robots using elements
from Book 8. I have even done up about 10 or so bots, in the theme of
popular Sci Fi bots (not C3P0 though...) from da movies. Prices are cheaper
generally than Book 8, and there is much hand waving for all you gearheads
out there (so sue me). Skill resolution has been modified to fit my
mechanics but I would think is easier enough to engineer for whatever game
system you use to run Traveller. 

If anyone is interested email me off list

Mikey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:31:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:31:27 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices [long]
Message-ID: <200204031231.DGL00640@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

John Groth says
<snip good rules for prototypes> 

Sounds like a good way to keep the lid on ship size, and 
perhaps even on the total number of ships.

I am also wondering:  there are more than a few nations that 
could probably "afford" to build an aircraft carrier, but 
many of them don't, or are retiring those that they have.  I 
think that the costs of maintenance for larger ships is more 
significant than for a smaller ship.  

Any ideas on how to make the larger ship more expensive to 
maintain?  The USS Kennedy is a recent case in point.  It can 
still cruise around, but it doesn't take much to make it 
not "mission capable".
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:34:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:34:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] pbem starting
Message-ID: <200204031234.DGL00812@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Now taking players for a pbem set in the Corridor area.
CT rules, with some modifications.
If you are interested, please e-mail jtkwon@jtkgroup.com.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:12:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 08:12:11 -0500
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403080940.027e7b68@192.168.0.1>

At 09:40 PM 4/2/2002 -0800, jimv wrote:
> > One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the
> > price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial
> > cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very
> > much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be
> > possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for
> > mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the
> > fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator
> > runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to
> > ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of
> > the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.

Actually one of the cool things about T4 was a short bit about
how one lived at the poverty line in a TL C society.

Even though they lived very well compared to the poor in a TL 9 (or less) 
society,
you still had Haves and Haves Nots, so there was "Class" friction that could
be exploited.

>That and a lack of dirt. Actually, with cheap energy (ala fusion),
>transportation costs would probably plummet as well. I remember
>reading a book of short stories back in high school, and in one
>of them, the author posited that nuclear fusion created an era
>of plenty where people struggled to be good consumers (comsuming
>as much of everything as they could so as to keep the econony
>humming along... consuming became an occupation in itself). I
>thought the conclusion was rather silly, but the question raised
>(what would the world be like with cheap energy?) was certainly
>interesting, and it's something which I haven't really seen
>explored beyond the most superficial level. What would the
>world be like if supply so outstripped demand that the vast
>majority of people would no longer have to work. In a way, we're
>living it (not meaning to start a flamewar over social policy, but
>it's my intuition that welfare recipients today probably live
>better than their hard working ancestors of centuries past), but
>imagine the trend were extended such that everyone could live
>in idle luxury, and only a small percentage of the population
>need be employeed. What would that be like? I can't even scratch
>the surface of potential ramifications. -Jim
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem
among the poor than starvation. That's something that
would have been science fiction to anybody who grew up
before, say, 1900, or even 1950
-------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:32:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:32:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>
References: <20020402191127.6b66c4f3.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020402201432.444efd17.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Classic Traveller wrote:
> When it is completed I will publish it in PDF. That way it will
definitely
> see print "see print", if it is worth the paper to print it on ;)

No problem. I'll print it at the university for free  ;-)

How much material are you aiming at? What kind?

I imagine TAS could be used as an alternative to the intrigues among the
noble families. After all, the idle rich are always a good source for
strife. Just look at the old-school soap operas (Dallas, Falcon Crest,
etc) out there...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
Message-ID: <E16smpE-0002tC-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

If you listen very carefully at the end of the recording, with the right fi=
ltering you can just hear:
<RECORDING ON>
> PC's on a derelict free trader:
> PC1: "Hmmm, blood everywhere but no bodies"
> PC2: "The only thing on the manifest is penguins, yet
> the cargo bay is empty"
> PC3: "Who would slaughter an entire ships crew for
> penguins?"
> PC2: "They also took the small craft"
> PC1: "Whats that noise?"
> PC3: "What noise?"
> PC1: "Sounded like flapping of some kind"
> PC2: "Lets get back to the ship"
> PC1: "Okay lets go. <speaking into com> Hey Samantha,
> light up the drives where out of here"
> <No response>
> PC1: "Samantha?, do you read?"
> PC2: "Hey wheres Jimmy?"
> PC1: <Spinning around to search for Jimmy> "Jimmy,
> jimmy?"

(soft singing, low voice) Scooby duby do...

> <END RECORDING>
>=20
> James
>=20

Beth


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:42:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:42:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEMAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403103415.00a8a750@pop.wizard.net>

John-Martin describes his new world order Traveller universe.  Which sounds 
awfully like CT when there were still only a few books published.

You may want to go with CT, and a few house rules.  Maintenance capability 
of starports being one higher than construction capability, for 
instance.  Which sounds like a pretty good rule.  Take CT material 
published from Trillion Credit Squadron onwards with a grain of salt, or 
even ignore it.  TCS economics tend to make the Imperium and other stellar 
empires be too omnipresent and powerful for the universe you 
described.  You may be happiest with the Azhanti High Lightning as one of 
the most important warships of its time, or even the Kinunir.  Take Book 5 
- High Guard out of the ship construction rules entirely.  That would limit 
the largest ships to 5,000 tons.  Or use Book 5 only for 
referee-constructed ships.  Although you did say you don't want to use LBB 
2, either.  Sounds like you will need either extensive mods of existing 
rules or to write your own from scratch.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEMAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <20020403155041.62193.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  Please see below for comments......
  >>
--- John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Like I would guess many peoples did, 
> MTU (tm) just grew, accreting layers 
> and lumps as bright shiny things 
> attracted my eyes.
> 
> Well I've decided to do a new one up right.
> thinking about what final conditions I want 
> then deciding what conditions are needed to 
> create them.  
> 
> What I want
> 
> a distant and non intrusive Imperium, with a 
> vaguely libertarian outlook.
> 
  >>
  I'm there.....
  >>
>
> a low powered environment, PC's are low level 
> players on the galactic scene.
> 
> The campaign is on a frontier, a la Spinward
>  Marches
>
  >>
  Kewl-ness......
  >>
> 
> book two sized and powered ships are normal
> (without necessarily using LBB two starship 
> design), economic and physical forces work 
> against large ships.
>
  >>
  Very cool....
  >>
> 
> Mil spec toys are rare
>
  >>
  Hmmm, verging on uh-oh....
  >>
> 
> Prices and rewards are at a level where 
> a party could in game earn enough money to 
> make down payment on a used starship and 
> then keep up payments.
>
  >>
  Given that the starship economy of Book 2
essentially encourages charactors to skip on their
creditors, I'm SO there....
  >>
>
> the interstellar iconology is healthy enough 
> that a backwater system is looking at 10 or 
> so ships a week (recalling that most ships 
> tend to be small)
>
  >>
  See the 'coda' below under 'Conditions'....
  >>
> 
> Mega-corps exist, but are far more important 
> along main trade routes and major systems.
>
  >>
  OK...but you're hamstringing a good plot device...
  >>
> 
> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop 
> 2 worlds
>
  >>
  .....YES!!!FINALLY!!!..... 
  >>
>
> 
> Conditions
> 
> The imperium is interested in external defense, 
> surveying and mapping, stable currency, internal 
> communications.
> 
> Imperial taxes are very low.
> 
> Imperial currency is very stable, currency drafts
> are
> excepted Imperium wide.  Local currency is
> much less flexible and much less used.  
> 
> As an exception to the libertarianism of the
> Imperium, 
> building large (spinal mount sized ) weapons is very
> restricted.  Likewise, brute force invasions of 
> neighboring worlds is discouraged.
> 
  >>
  The above points are already extant in the 3I,
IIRC......
  >>
>
> Most systems military is Coast Guard, National Guard
> level stuff.  They are oriented to stopping raiders 
> and internal affairs.  
>
  >>
  That's how I've always viewed planetary forces...
  >>
> 
> The Scout service is canon and very important, both 
> as a survey operation and a communications office
>
  >>
  No worries here....
  >>
> 
> While they can feed them selves, few systems are
> fully  self supporting in other areas, lacks and 
> shortfalls are usually obtainable within a 
> susbsector, with smaller ships this tends to pump up
> ship traffic.
> 
> Development is concentrated in most cases to the
> main planet 
> in system, the rest is unpatrolled and poorly
> explored.
> 
  >>
  CODA: Why? At the level of shipping you're talking
about, the only way to ship useful quantities of
product is by BIG carriers(e.g., LASH-type
freighters). 

  It's a lot more economical for a system government
to either encourage or subsidize[sp?] outer system
developement, either by gov't contractors or
(preferably) by 'native' belter-type operator's.
  >>
>
> Way / refueling stations exist in marginal systems
> where there 
> are no colonies.  These system are very poorly
> explored, and 
> lacking nice places for humans to live.
>
  >>
  Who pays for this? The only way to make it
economical enough to be of commercial utility (vs
skimming) is to lower the cost of the fuel provided by
the station's. If they (the ship-driver's) are charged
'market rates', the cost of this fuel will drive up
shipping costs to the point where merchants and
consumers at the recieving end won't be willing to
pay.

  See 'CODA'....
  >>
>
> The average campaign world is TL 12 and are lower
> end 
> population, 5 - 8 (Population is the population
> living 
> in system, on both sides of the of the XT line and 
> including permanently stationed troops.  Any fancy 
> arrangement is described in the system listing)
>
  >>
  Why so low?
  >>
> 
> High tech and high population world are hubs
> supporting 
> surrounding lower tech and pop worlds.  Trade is
> usually 
> surrounding -- Hub, and Hub -- Hub
> 
  >>
  That's how it usually runs.....
  >>
>
> Absent local conditions against it, most worlds have
> about a type C space port.  Spaceports have the
> maintenance 
> ability one level higher then their build ability. 
>
  >>
  This has always been my biggest saw about starports
in Trav: Why are there so many 'D' and 'E' class
ports? With a comparitivley small amount of time and
money, upgrading to at least 'C-' is a pretty small
chore......
  >>
>
> Ships last a long time, absent combat damage and
> with 
> proper maintenance, a 200 year old freighter is
> still 
> functional.
>
  >>
  That's how I always saw these ships....
  >>
> 
> Technology is stable, the rough edges have been 
> worn off most standard designs centuries ago.
> 
> The Imperium makes public domain standardized plans
> for 
> many thing available.  While local peculiarities
> exist, 
> a surprisingly large number of items are
> standardized 
> imperium wide. (unless of course it is for a plot
> point)
> 
  >>
  I'm OK with the stability part. Isn't there
something in GT about a standardised set of plans?
  >>
>
> Pirates exists, not as ECMs but as semi organized
> groups 
> in the fringes of the system.  A lot of time and
> effort 
> of the local navies is spent chasing them down.
> 
  >>
  Of course.
  >>
> 
> jml
> 
  >>
  MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
Message-ID: <200204031552.DGR04348@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Beth" says
>> PC3: "Who would slaughter an entire ships crew for
>> penguins?"

Penguins is practically chickens.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 08:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] inheritance Imperial style
Message-ID: <200204031616.DGS00004@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Was just looking at various types of inheritance in history, 
and two were contrasted.  Gavelkind, where all sons share in 
the inheritance equally, and primogeniture, where only the 
eldest gets the goods.

Apparently a driving force behind land acquisition, and when 
the land ran out, the seizure of land from others, was 
primogeniture.  It also provided knights for the Crusade.

"A noble class dependent for its power and position upon the 
possession of land - or, to be more accurate, it's right to 
collect taxes and services from the residents of the land - 
had emerged over the previous century, and the population of 
that hereditary class was growing. As long as the Frankish 
monarchs had continued conquering new lands, there were 
always new districts to distribute to the nobility. Now that 
expansion had ceased, however, the nobles began to suffer 
from "land-hunger" and began to evolve into something 
different from what the had originally been. They took 
complete control of the lands they had been appointed to 
govern in the offices of count, duke, and margrave and to 
treat them as personal possessions. They began to demand 
payment in land for helping one or the other side in the 
incessant civil wars. When the Carolingian monarchs no longer 
had royal lands to give in exchange for support, the fighting 
nobles took over the lands of the churches and the 
monasteries that the central government - such as it was - 
could no longer protect. Even so, they could not continue 
dividing their lands into smaller and smaller pieces. During 
the course of the ninth and early tenth centuries, in a 
process that can be discerned only dimly, the aristocracy of 
western Europe abandoned the deeply-rooted custom of 
gavelkind and replaced it with primogeniture ("first-born"), 
a system in which the core of a family's lands was kept 
intact and passed automatically to the eldest son. In this 
fashion, the empire was shattered into hundreds of 
practically independent districts, each owned and ruled by a 
local strong man in command of a small body of fighting men 
and a castle.

Such a state cannot maintain a navy, so the remnants of the 
Carolingian empire were easy pickings for sea-borne raiders 
from Scandinavia (the Vikings) and from North Africa (the 
Saracens), as well as mounted raiders from central Asia (the 
Magyars, or Hungarians)."

Given the nature of our maps in Traveller, could an 
empire "run out of land"?  Could the current empire be 
described as "hundreds of independent districts, each owned 
and rules by a local strong man (or government) in command of 
a small body of fighting men and a castle (a small army, 
navy, and starbases)"?

I don't think I need the Virus to have the empire fall into 
another Long Night. Piracy at that point might be any ship 
with a weapon.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Wed Apr  3 08:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller PBeMs
In-Reply-To: <B8CF3437.341C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CABA198.12635.5425D9@localhost>

I just started in one, but I'm not the GM.  The GM is Charlotte 
Manton <Charlotte.Manton@btopenworld.com>, and she said 
she's definitely willing to accept new players.  I don't think the 
game has a web page yet, though, so ask her if you have 
questions.

-- Rachel Kronick
.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Wed Apr  3 08:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <F306Upm0RnzXotJAadV00014e0d@hotmail.com>

David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>On rule of thumb in security is that the hard you make it for
>unwarranted intrusion, the harder you make it for authorized people

A corralary to this: the harder you make it for authorized
people, the more likely it is that the authorized people will
disable the security.  If all your passwords are twenty-character
random alphanumeric strings, expect to see sticky notes with the
passwords written on them stuck everywhere the passwords will
be used.  If that retinal scanner makes the crew sit through
three or four rescans before it lets them in, or mistakes them
for a terrorist a couple times a week, expect the retinal scanner
to be bypassed before the ship comes out of its first jump.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:06:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:06:11 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CAB365A.5070001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>or look up flux compressors 
>>
>>The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures 
>>I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius 
>>kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.
>>
>>Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find
>>anything.  OK, I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite
>>terrorist building these? --
> 
> 
> That's a very good question.  I've read speculation that they may 
> have been used in some places, but I'd think the evidence would be 
> pretty obvious (lots of fried computers).  At that point, I'm guessing 
> that most terrorists want to see blood far more than lost data.

There is speculation that they have been used, but in the commission of 
crimes. (good way to whack alarm systems.)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:07:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:07:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <ba.23b5ccdc.29dc9067@aol.com>

--part1_ba.23b5ccdc.29dc9067_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 02/04/02 20:00:27 GMT Daylight Time, thing@moonwise.com 
writes:


> > Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs
> > starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're
> > borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.
> >
> > The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not
> to
> > let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can
> probably
> > see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information
> than
> > you wish to give out.
> 
> Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
> intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low 
> power
> biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.  If the
> security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
> vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
> other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.

Actually I was thinking of MRI or sound based scanning systems. Plus the 
ability of a device to scan through a visor in a variety of EM spectrums and 
actually see what its looking at.

Its not necessarily eay to fool the system if it "knows" the vacc suit or 
expects the operator to use a code to validate the data. I'm not saying that 
biometric data alone will be used - I agree that that would be overly simple 
and easy to defeat. I would expect at least a dual system of biometrics and 
code or key (or both). 

> 
> > If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems
> for
> > opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a 
> glitch
> > then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to
> a
> > specialist lock-smith.
> 
> If there is a mechanical system for opening the door than it comes down to
> cutting the power to the doors locking mechanism so that you can operate 
> the
> manual.  This usually wouldn't be too difficult.
> 
> G.D.D.
> 
It's not too difficult to conceive of a lockout that knows the difference 
between a power failure and a someone cutting the supply to the locks 
mechanism. It may be as simple as having a number of different sensors 
located around the door. A person wishing to cut the power *only* to the 
doors mechanism must therefore be able to, effectively, remove the door from 
its setting. If they can do that then a lock isn't going to stop them getting 
in :).

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_ba.23b5ccdc.29dc9067_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 20:00:27 GMT Daylight Time, thing@moonwise.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs<BR>
&gt; starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're<BR>
&gt; borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not<BR>
to<BR>
&gt; let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can<BR>
probably<BR>
&gt; see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information<BR>
than<BR>
&gt; you wish to give out.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low<BR>
intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power<BR>
biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.&nbsp; If the<BR>
security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like<BR>
vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most<BR>
other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Actually I was thinking of MRI or sound based scanning systems. Plus the ability of a device to scan through a visor in a variety of EM spectrums and actually see what its looking at.<BR>
<BR>
Its not necessarily eay to fool the system if it "knows" the vacc suit or expects the operator to use a code to validate the data. I'm not saying that biometric data alone will be used - I agree that that would be overly simple and easy to defeat. I would expect at least a dual system of biometrics and code or key (or both). </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
&gt; If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems<BR>
for<BR>
&gt; opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch<BR>
&gt; then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to<BR>
a<BR>
&gt; specialist lock-smith.<BR>
<BR>
If there is a mechanical system for opening the door than it comes down to<BR>
cutting the power to the doors locking mechanism so that you can operate the<BR>
manual.&nbsp; This usually wouldn't be too difficult.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
It's not too difficult to conceive of a lockout that knows the difference between a power failure and a someone cutting the supply to the locks mechanism. It may be as simple as having a number of different sensors located around the door. A person wishing to cut the power *only* to the doors mechanism must therefore be able to, effectively, remove the door from its setting. If they can do that then a lock isn't going to stop them getting in :).<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_ba.23b5ccdc.29dc9067_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204030510.DFV03007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017853751.1367.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> laning <laning@wizard.net>  
> <snip size limits>
> 
> I think that limiting people to smaller ships really gives us 
> the "small ship" Traveller.

Unfortunately, it gives us the '50,000 small ships' traveller, which is in fact
worse for roleplaying than the '500 big ships' traveller.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215009.0283aec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017853921.54.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> Leonard Erickson, in replying to JimV said:
> 
> >BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
> >higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
> >artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
> >playing "grav pong" with hijackers.
> Sounds like we see it the same way.  Although +6 gees to -6 gees in less 
> than one second should be sufficient grav pong to deal with most hijackers.

I prefer to see grav compensation as being a side effect of the drives, which
means grav pong is impossible (well, artificial gravity can still be used, but
one can easily claim that it takes a while to cycle).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se> <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CAB3843.2060604@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
>>reprinted in various places.
> 
> 
> I Google'd around, but all I could find was webpages mentioning it. It
> would seem that it is available in various paper reprints, but not on the
> web. Sad...


I have at least one of them at home. If it's easily accessible, I'll dig 
it out and see what's there.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (long) Re: inheritance Imperial style
In-Reply-To: <200204031616.DGS00004@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403112658.025000c0@pop.wizard.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
>Was just looking at various types of inheritance in history,
>and two were contrasted.  Gavelkind, where all sons share in
>the inheritance equally, and primogeniture, where only the
>eldest gets the goods.
>
>Apparently a driving force behind land acquisition, and when
>the land ran out, the seizure of land from others, was
>primogeniture.  It also provided knights for the Crusade.
IIRC, the Albigensian Crusade was the first Crusade.  It is probably most 
famous nowadays for providing us with the motto, "Kill them all, God will 
know his own."  People nowadays usually say 'sort them out' instead of 
'know his own', but it amounts to the same thing.

The reason for the famous quote was that the clergy accompanying the French 
knights were dismayed when they saw the French indiscriminately killing 
Albigensians who were quite possibly Christian.  Or even obviously 
Christian.  The French were largely motivated by wanting to take the land 
from their Albigensian neighbors, and the blessing from the Pope was merely 
the thinnest of rationalizations for their actions.  Once they were in the 
heat of action, they were even less concerned about needing a rationalization.

<<<snippage of a interesting passage too long to bear repeating>>>
>Given the nature of our maps in Traveller, could an
>empire "run out of land"?  Could the current empire be
>described as "hundreds of independent districts, each owned
>and rules by a local strong man (or government) in command of
>a small body of fighting men and a castle (a small army,
>navy, and starbases)"?
>
>I don't think I need the Virus to have the empire fall into
>another Long Night. Piracy at that point might be any ship
>with a weapon.

I agree that the threat of another Long Night exists without having to 
resort to a gross deus ex machina like the Virus.  (And I do mean 
gross.)  But most land within the Imperium belongs to the local 
government.  The Imperium only holds legal sway over the space between the 
stars and planets.  The Emperor can award fiefs, and they can be inherited, 
but I'm sure they very long ago ran out of land that could thus be owned 
and inherited.

What the Imperium possesses and the late medieval Europeans lacked are a 
sophisticated and robust economic system, and nonhereditary institutions 
(megacorps and the Navy) that share power with the nobility.  This things 
make all the difference.

The existence of much more complex and sophisticated economic mechanisms 
than tenth-century Europeans had means that land inheritance is not the 
main life blood of economics.  Extensive and fairly efficient markets exist 
for virtually everything, and capital is extremely liquid.  Land tends to 
be held by corporations, and if a corporation folds, there are bankruptcy 
regulations to oversee the distribution of assets, which go immediately 
back into the economy instead of being held closely held by one family.

The Emperors and Empresses make a point of retaining ultimate ownership of 
fiefs they award, and they can resume direct control of them at will.  A 
local noble who attempts to resist that will have to contend with a very 
powerful central Navy.  Not even in the case of the excellently written 
LandGrab of Vincennes can locals seriously hope to defy the Emperor, 
because of this powerful Navy.  Nobles jockey for power and influence over 
the Navy, and in times gone by there were even a series of Barracks 
Emperors who seized the iridium throne simply because they thought they 
could get away with it.  The Barracks Emperors each relied on fleets of the 
supposedly central Navy.

The emperors since have learned the lesson and maintain strong control of 
the Navy.  When the civil war following Strephon's assassination resulted 
in the Navy being fractured, that's only because the authors had gone to 
great pains to create the conditions for honest doubt among admirals over 
exactly who had the best legal claim.  Under normal conditions the Navy 
remains loyal to the throne.  The way I understand it, Dulinor's beef with 
Strephon was that he was encouraging sector dukes to become too powerful 
and that would lead to the danger of a breakup or civil war.  Ironically, 
Dulinor precipitated exactly what he said he was trying to 
prevent.  Although I suspect his ego clouded his judgment and his motives 
were less pure than he himself believed.

Power and ownership of assets are divided between the throne, corporations, 
and system governments.  Economic life is diverse, active, and fully 
developed.  The division of power and assets acts somewhat like the famous 
system of checks and balances between the three branches of government in 
the US.  The mature and sophisticated economic life prevents assets from 
becoming concentrated more and more into the hands of an hereditary few 
(unless you take your economics with a lump of Marxism :-) and thus 
becoming a scarcer and scarcer resource with this trend creating conflict 
over the scarcity.

In the absence of outside threat, the greatest danger that persists inside 
the Imperium is in its only major institution that is completely 
hereditary--selecting who sits on the throne.  A series of poor emperors, 
or even just one, could potentially wreak havoc on the other institutions 
that are the main props of the system.

I have demonstrated that the Imperium is held together and fluorishes 
because of its inherently stabilizing structure, and its good fortune to 
have sufficient population and technology and legal institutions that 
promote an economic structure capable of keeping the healthy flow of 
liquidity to all the centers of power within the Imperium.  Not bad, 
considering it's just rationalizing a _very_ fictional science fiction 
backstory that was mostly created as an excuse for roleplaying games that 
visit thousands of different worlds and thus thousands of different science 
fiction stories.  :->

Oh.  The nature of the maps in Traveller.  Megacorps should be falling all 
over themselves to expand into the areas beyond the frontier and either 
create their own puppet empires or bring them into the Imperial fold.  And 
they should be falling all over themselves and fighting each other for 
control and exploitation of resources in the bazillions of neglected 
"backwaters" within Imperial borders.  It should be something like the 
story of the American West from the advent of the railroad through the end 
of the century.  All the canonical indications are that unexploited planets 
tend to remain so for decades and centuries at a time.  That bothers me.  I 
think the original idea was to provide not just Victorians in space, but 
also a version of the wild and woolly frontier that the real Victorians had 
in the American West and to lesser degrees elsewhere around the 
globe.  That was to set the stage for referees to run their own campaigns 
that saw dramatic and interesting changes sweep across the map, with the 
players being part of all that.  As time progressed and more backstory of 
the Imperium was written things became more static.  Probably, the original 
strategic vision was somewhat lost in the tactics of customers clamoring 
for more information about the Imperium and places within the 
Imperium.  Pure speculation of course.  My record on pure speculation is 
less than reliable.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] inheritance Imperial style
References: <200204031616.DGS00004@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB3D63.2000904@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Such a state cannot maintain a navy, so the remnants of the 
> Carolingian empire were easy pickings for sea-borne raiders 
> from Scandinavia (the Vikings) and from North Africa (the 
> Saracens), as well as mounted raiders from central Asia (the 
> Magyars, or Hungarians)."
> 
> Given the nature of our maps in Traveller, could an 
> empire "run out of land"?  Could the current empire be 
> described as "hundreds of independent districts, each owned 
> and rules by a local strong man (or government) in command of 
> a small body of fighting men and a castle (a small army, 
> navy, and starbases)"?
> 
> I don't think I need the Virus to have the empire fall into 
> another Long Night. Piracy at that point might be any ship 
> with a weapon.

You just described the Aslan itahei.

Pirates at that point arent' pirates, but raiders, in the sense that 
they attack planets not other ships, which is an *entirely* different 
kettle of fish.

However, if you defind 'land' as 'someplace where you collect taxes from 
production thereon' The 3I will not run out of land anytime soon.

In addition to the vast number of underpoulated systems, belts, etc, 
'new' land can be constructed at any time, just about anywhere, via 
building space habs.

Building O'Neill-style colonies is cheap in Traveller.

Look at the costs of an asteroid hull, sometime...amazingly cheap.

Then, the scenario you described is amply laid out in 'Hard Times', and 
on one of the mother sources of Traveller, 'Space Vikings' by H. Beam 
Piper.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <3CAB365A.5070001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <B8D08114.346CC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/3/02 9:05 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

> 
> There is speculation that they have been used, but in the commission of
> crimes. (good way to whack alarm systems.)

Aside from theory, has anyone actually tested a device of this kind?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <B8D08114.346CC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB45FC.5060802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 4/3/02 9:05 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:
> 
> 
>>There is speculation that they have been used, but in the commission of
>>crimes. (good way to whack alarm systems.)
> 
> 
> Aside from theory, has anyone actually tested a device of this kind?
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.

I remember reading someone's account of making and setting one off. He 
described stopping clocks and other electrical and electronic devices at 
a range of approx 1/4 mile. IIRC it was rather directional.

I don't, however, remember the reference, whether it was on the web or 
the list.

However, since making a pipe bomb is an integral part of making one of 
these devices, I suspect people are rather circumspect regarding their , 
ahh, experimentation along these lines...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402205809.027d9ba0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CABBC5E.30314.BCBF6D@localhost>

Hi all!

I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists 
Table (UTT), where you roll and a result like "Antagonist turns out 
to be Protagonist's long-lost relative" or "20 drunken goons ambush 
the PC on the way home" or whatever come up.  we could make a 
big UTT with a thousand or so entries so repeats are rare...

-- Rachel


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <182.62a974a.29dca666@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 22:58:51 GMT Daylight Time, 
ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:


> TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.  
> One
> assumes the neutron problems have been solved.
> 

Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing "up" 
to He4 :)

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 22:58:51 GMT Daylight Time, ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.&nbsp; One<BR>
assumes the neutron problems have been solved.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing "up" to He4 :)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_182.62a974a.29dca666_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
References: <182.62a974a.29dca666@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB4D53.2FCA27E3@premier.net>

Charles writes:

> TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.  One
> assumes the neutron problems have been solved.

Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing
"up" to He4 :)

Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
opposed to deuterium or tritium)?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204031846.DGX03548@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Subject: Re: [TML] handy device  
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>
>Aside from theory, has anyone actually tested a device of 
this kind?
>--
There is supposed to be a test facility in New Mexico where 
several of these were fabricated and tested to see if it 
worked.  Not sure, but it might have been Kirtland AFB.

They are testing other types of electromagnetic weapons there.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:48:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:48:35 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <3CAB4D53.2FCA27E3@premier.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017859666.3145.ajackson@ping>

John Groth writes:
> Charles writes:
> 
> > TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to
> > He4.  One assumes the neutron problems have been solved.
> 
> Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing
> "up" to He4 :)
> 
> Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
> opposed to deuterium or tritium)?

No, P-P probably would be phosphorus.  I should have written p-p.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402222929.02df3008@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402222929.02df3008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3cac4775.11204799@post.demon.co.uk>

Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:

>Well...given the 'canon' cold war setup, the Zho would have Russian =
Accents.
[...]
>Your basic heavy handed eastern European accent.

Of course...  The classic "Zhodani Philosophies" article in JTAS 23
can only be read with a really thick fake Russian accent:

"...contrary to what your holographic film directors seem to think, we
smile (and even laugh) as often as Imperials...
"...We are not robots.  Creativity, divergence of opinion, freedom of
expression... we have all of these within the Consulate.  Our
government is not oppressive...[...]  In return, our citizens respect,
obey and freely criticize their rulers (as is their duty)."

Stephen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <53.14a0b708.29dcabc3@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 18:50:46 GMT Daylight Time, 
jenry023@student.liu.se writes:


> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
> function using radically different biochemistries?
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> 

Stanley Schmidts "Aliens and Alien Societies" is reasonably useful. It's 
available from Amazon and there's some intersting stuff floating around out 
on the web

http://library.thinkquest.org/C003763/index.php?page=index&tqskip1=1&
tqtime=0402

Is an example.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 18:50:46 GMT Daylight Time, jenry023@student.liu.se writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might<BR>
function using radically different biochemistries?<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Stanley Schmidts "Aliens and Alien Societies" is reasonably useful. It's available from Amazon and there's some intersting stuff floating around out on the web<BR>
<BR>
http://library.thinkquest.org/C003763/index.php?page=index&amp;tqskip1=1&amp;tqtime=0402<BR>
<BR>
Is an example.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_53.14a0b708.29dcabc3_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <20020403155041.62193.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEOAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

  MACessna wrote
  >>
  Please see below for comments......
  >>
--- John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Like I would guess many peoples did,
> MTU (tm) just grew, accreting layers
> and lumps as bright shiny things
> attracted my eyes.
>
> Well I've decided to do a new one up right.
> thinking about what final conditions I want
> then deciding what conditions are needed to
> create them.
>
> What I want
>
> a distant and non intrusive Imperium, with a
> vaguely libertarian outlook.
>
  >>
  I'm there.....
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

yeppers, I'm an old crack who likes the original CT setting

>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> a low powered environment, PC's are low level
> players on the galactic scene.
>
> The campaign is on a frontier, a la Spinward
>  Marches
>
  >>
  Kewl-ness......
  >>
>
> book two sized and powered ships are normal
> (without necessarily using LBB two starship
> design), economic and physical forces work
> against large ships.
>
  >>
  Very cool....
  >>
>
> Mil spec toys are rare
>
  >>
  Hmmm, verging on uh-oh....
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

People who strap on a PGMP-15 to go to the
'fresher annoy me,  IMTU they'll have to make
do with a shotgun.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Prices and rewards are at a level where
> a party could in game earn enough money to
> make down payment on a used starship and
> then keep up payments.
>
  >>
  Given that the starship economy of Book 2
essentially encourages charactors to skip on their
creditors, I'm SO there....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

traveller space ship, things you ride around
in until you run out of money (this applies to
riding or ownership).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  >>
>
> the interstellar iconology is healthy enough
> that a backwater system is looking at 10 or
> so ships a week (recalling that most ships
> tend to be small)
>
  >>
  See the 'coda' below under 'Conditions'....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
see below coda for my response

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  >>
>
> Mega-corps exist, but are far more important
> along main trade routes and major systems.
>
  >>
  OK...but you're hamstringing a good plot device...
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh they exist elsewhere, just they are less important

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
> 2 worlds
>
  >>
  .....YES!!!FINALLY!!!.....
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
have you ever seen my semi-regular Binges rant?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
> Conditions
>
> The imperium is interested in external defense,
> surveying and mapping, stable currency, internal
> communications.
>
> Imperial taxes are very low.
>
> Imperial currency is very stable, currency drafts
> are
> excepted Imperium wide.  Local currency is
> much less flexible and much less used.
>
> As an exception to the libertarianism of the
> Imperium,
> building large (spinal mount sized ) weapons is very
> restricted.  Likewise, brute force invasions of
> neighboring worlds is discouraged.
>
  >>
  The above points are already extant in the 3I,
IIRC......
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
yep and that I like ''cept mine is less present, systems
join and stay because of the currency union aspect alone
IFIAK.  That and the party favors given out on Fleet Day.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  >>
>
> Most systems military is Coast Guard, National Guard
> level stuff.  They are oriented to stopping raiders
> and internal affairs.
>
  >>
  That's how I've always viewed planetary forces...
  >>
>
> The Scout service is canon and very important, both
> as a survey operation and a communications office
>
  >>
  No worries here....
  >>
>
> While they can feed them selves, few systems are
> fully  self supporting in other areas, lacks and
> shortfalls are usually obtainable within a
> susbsector, with smaller ships this tends to pump up
> ship traffic.
>
> Development is concentrated in most cases to the
> main planet
> in system, the rest is unpatrolled and poorly
> explored.
>
  >>
  CODA: Why? At the level of shipping you're talking
about, the only way to ship useful quantities of
product is by BIG carriers(e.g., LASH-type
freighters).

  It's a lot more economical for a system government
to either encourage or subsidize[sp?] outer system
developement, either by gov't contractors or
(preferably) by 'native' belter-type operator's.
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In the long run they will develop. This is a frontier,
at this time sales are too small for many markets to
roll the own everything,  Imagine whole subsectors relying
on Yugotech ground cars, -- available in any color you
want as long as it's lime green.  aftermarket add-ons
are probably made locally.

This by the way is a reason for lots of smaller ships.  Dealers
of whatever take orders in small lots from the factory, smaller
tramps do just fine carrying the loads needed.  Think two or
thee car carrier semis scale to the dealership, not a bulk carrier
hauling all those car across the ocean.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Way / refueling stations exist in marginal systems
> where there
> are no colonies.  These system are very poorly
> explored, and
> lacking nice places for humans to live.
>
  >>
  Who pays for this? The only way to make it
economical enough to be of commercial utility (vs
skimming) is to lower the cost of the fuel provided by
the station's. If they (the ship-driver's) are charged
'market rates', the cost of this fuel will drive up
shipping costs to the point where merchants and
consumers at the recieving end won't be willing to
pay.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

They tend to be where classic trav might have a
lo pop lousy living condition planet,  They make
money because a ship saves however much time it
takes to go 100 d for a gas giant, wilderness
refuel, go back to 100 d's and process your fuel.

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  See 'CODA'...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

seperatish issue in my opinion, besides
they are a neat place for Ancient artifacts
to lurk.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
  >>
>
> The average campaign world is TL 12 and are lower
> end
> population, 5 - 8 (Population is the population
> living
> in system, on both sides of the of the XT line and
> including permanently stationed troops.  Any fancy
> arrangement is described in the system listing)
>
  >>
  Why so low?
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
somehow a population in the billion fails to jibe
with my vision of a frontier world, recall that
these are frontier worlds.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> High tech and high population world are hubs
> supporting
> surrounding lower tech and pop worlds.  Trade is
> usually
> surrounding -- Hub, and Hub -- Hub
>
  >>
  That's how it usually runs.....
  >>
>
> Absent local conditions against it, most worlds have
> about a type C space port.  Spaceports have the
> maintenance
> ability one level higher then their build ability.
>
  >>
  This has always been my biggest saw about starports
in Trav: Why are there so many 'D' and 'E' class
ports? With a comparitivley small amount of time and
money, upgrading to at least 'C-' is a pretty small
chore......
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

yep another SRR bait

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Ships last a long time, absent combat damage and
> with
> proper maintenance, a 200 year old freighter is
> still
> functional.
>
  >>
  That's how I always saw these ships....
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I see Jamison's ship as 300 plus years old, his corp. bought it used and
used it hard on speculative runs

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Technology is stable, the rough edges have been
> worn off most standard designs centuries ago.
>
> The Imperium makes public domain standardized plans
> for
> many thing available.  While local peculiarities
> exist,
> a surprisingly large number of items are
> standardized
> imperium wide. (unless of course it is for a plot
> point)
>
  >>
  I'm OK with the stability part. Isn't there
something in GT about a standardised set of plans?
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Spaceport mention something like this I believe.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Pirates exists, not as ECMs but as semi organized
> groups
> in the fringes of the system.  A lot of time and
> effort
> of the local navies is spent chasing them down.
>
  >>
  Of course.
  >>
>
> jml
>
  >>
  MACessna
  >>
>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
Message-ID: <e4.25704b2c.29dcb669@aol.com>

--part1_e4.25704b2c.29dcb669_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stomped on dupe names, got rid of those underscore characters, and
bumped up the pop and tech scores for a dozen or so worlds. See what
this gives us.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

--part1_e4.25704b2c.29dcb669_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; name="aldebaran.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="aldebaran.txt"

Avalon                0106  B767845-A   Ri                     623 So
Banners               0110  B645878-7                          824 So
Threshold             0121  B66735A-9   Lo Ni                  202 So
Carson                0123  B465888-9   Ri                     323 So
Victory               0124  C7955A7-6   Ag Ni                  422 So
Aphrodite             0125  C8B0243-9   De Lo Ni               924 So
Ryerson               0126  E592333-5   Lo Ni                  401 So
Barrens               0127  B241566-B   Ni Po                  224 So
Jewelbox              0128  B857457-C   Ni                     711 So
Ormuz                 0131  E460357-6   De Lo Ni               112 So
923-211               0139  X6B2000-0   Ba Fl                  420 Na
Morgan                0201  A7759BB-D   Hi In                  310 So
Euler                 0202  C21046A-A   Ni                     722 So
Urania                0203  B574755-B   Ag                     901 So
Arrakis               0206  B460858-C   De Ri                  422 So
Hesiod                0207  C56778C-8   Ag Ri                  225 So
Ehlai                 0211  AAC259B-D   Fl Ni                  700 So
Gamma                 0212  B642614-7   Ni Po                  124 So
Chiron                0217  B310788-9   Na                     904 So
Pericles              0220  B457404-C   Ni                     422 So
Omar                  0222  B596578-B N Ag Ni                  223 So
Absalom               0223  A578843-C                          933 So
Jackson               0224  C45367A-8   Ni Po                  325 So
Tau-Tau               0225  B000649-D N As Na Ni               210 So
Manuel                0226  A445788-9   Ag                     323 So
Tudor                 0227  B627599-9   Ni                     324 So
Samarkand             0228  B461766-9   Ri                     214 So
Wunderland            0233  E868443-7   Ni                     833 Na
896-917               0234  E364000-0   Ba                     725 Na
899-491               0235  XAA6000-0   Ba Fl                  123 Na
Hawking               0236  B776553-9   Ag Ni                  723 Na
Tombs                 0301  C310730-A   Na                     202 So
Novy Mir              0302  A96A883-C N Ri Wa                  624 So
Galileo               0304  C100662-9   Na Ni Va               534 So
Samson                0310  B6687B6-7   Ag                     301 So
Ceres                 0312  A677878-A                          422 So
Kant                  0316  B445856-9                          624 So
Elnath                0317  B000766-D N As Na                  533 So
Sultana               0319  B544622-9   Ag Ni                  334 So
Haven                 0325  B658668-8   Ag Ni                  923 So
Spencer               0326  B260337-8   De Lo Ni               714 So
Enterprise            0327  A877663-8   Ag Ni                  722 So
Cascade               0328  B69A730-8   Wa                     434 So
Nelson                0331  A55A799-D   Wa                     923 So
Lammas                0332  B24478A-A   Ag                     922 So
Vixen                 0333  C474225-6   Lo Ni                  122 Na
Shuanyun              0334  CAC0514-C   De Ni                  615 Na
Accident              0340  D371356-6   Lo Ni                  824 Na
Saladin               0412  B353869-A   Po                     113 So
Hadrian               0415  C51465A-8   Ic Ni                  935 So
Nakamura              0418  C10049A-B   Ni Va                  602 So
New Pretoria          0424  B643866-9   Po                     524 So
Pele                  0426  A998534-8   Ag Ni                  410 So
Themis                0428  C9A5168-9   Fl Lo Ni               324 So
Storm                 0431  A897676-B   Ag Ni                  823 So
Gateway               0434  E357413-8   Ni                     510 Na
885-644               0436  E666000-0   Ba                     724 Na
Shah's World          0437  E616100-8   Ic Lo Ni               700 Na
Fortuna               0505  B896856-9                          725 So
Isis                  0508  B696653-A N Ag Ni                  511 So
Tellus                0511  A986976-B N Hi                     704 So
Ozymandias            0512  A7A387A-B   Fl                     703 So
Bismarck              0518  B679845-6                          524 So
Ekaterina             0519  A877789-9   Ag                     500 So
Terminus              0521  B410451-9   Ni                     203 So
Athens                0527  A684958-D   Hi                     824 So
Breslau               0531  A5646AC-8   Ag Ni                  501 So
Taurea                0532  A4569C9-D N Hi                     423 So
893-368               0537  XAB4000-0   Ba Fl                  900 Na
New Lyon              0606  B642998-B   Hi In Po               700 So
Prime                 0608  C8A5656-A   Fl Ni                  600 So
Sun Tzu               0611  A778569-A   Ag Ni                  913 So
Horizon               0615  A541221-A N Lo Ni Po               534 So
Felicity              0617  B5338AD-B   Na Po                  103 So
Plateau               0618  B9D789B-6   Fl                     624 So
Rhodes                0620  A000988-E   As Hi In Na            823 So
Fermat                0624  C5259A9-A   Hi In                  713 So
Provence              0625  A365534-D   Ag Ni                  934 So
Goliath               0631  BA959DC-6   Hi In                  723 So
905-404               0633  X6A0000-0   Ba De                  823 Na
Solitude              0635  B353200-C   Lo Ni Po               424 Na
Euxene                0703  A7979BD-A   Hi In                  823 So
Lyrane                0705  B000734-D N As Na                  503 So
Abaddon               0713  B6A459B-8   Fl Ni                  510 So
Churchill             0720  A655951-E   Hi                     422 So
Sydney                0721  A357789-C N Ag                     503 So
Outpost               0724  A10069C-E   Na Ni Va               804 So
Union                 0725  A424999-E N Hi In                  922 So
Pacifica              0728  A85A424-E   Ni Wa                  703 So
Hadley                0731  B574663-8   Ag Ni                  700 So
Pella                 0732  C300655-B   Na Ni Va               821 So
Harbinger             0735  B220646-C   De Na Ni Po            232 Na
Abydos                0736  D254545-7   Ag Ni                  213 Na
Shaitan               0739  E580131-2   De Lo Ni               700 Na
Farwold               0801  A445645-A   Ag Ni                  525 So
Maharani              0804  B64566A-7   Ag Ni                  535 So
Montrose              0809  A5548AA-8                          800 So
Anjou                 0818  B426985-D   Hi In                  402 So
Nueva Brasilia        0820  A884ACE-C   Hi                     200 So
Caledonia             0821  A797977-D   Hi In                  124 So
Dante                 0822  D8B9201-A   Fl Lo Ni               823 So
Tatiana               0826  B300587-B   Ni Va                  824 So
Daikoku               0829  A8589A7-C   Hi                     723 So
Izanagi               0830  A448973-B N Hi In                  804 So
Musashi               0833  B100558-C   Ni Va                  121 Na
Rhiannon              0835  B785655-A   Ag Ni Ri               522 Na
Babur                 0837  B55447A-B   Ni                     412 Na
Monterey              0907  A110987-E   Hi In Na               321 So
Twilight              0912  A8949A7-9   Hi In                  524 So
Albion                0921  B6569AA-9   Hi                     921 So
Europa                0923  A868AB8-E   Hi                     104 So
Hotei                 0927  A7B3435-D   Fl Ni                  802 So
Yawata                0929  C434879-9                          310 So
Tenjin                0930  A246431-E   Ni                     624 So
892-834               0934  X9B7000-0   Ba Fl                  320 Na
Carthage              0938  C110334-A   Lo Ni                  200 Na
889-056               0939  X411000-0   Ba Ic                  923 Na
Aldebaran             1002  A000752-E   As Na                  734 So
Rowan                 1004  A300589-A   Ni Va                  735 So
Home                  1009  A86699A-E N Hi                     320 So
Virgil                1014  A998855-9                          312 So
Gilead                1015  B433753-B   Na Po                  624 So
Nodens                1016  A210426-A   Ni                     823 So
Albion                1022  A547A7A-C N Hi In                  310 So
Covenant              1023  A696945-E   Hi In                  423 So
Pasquale              1024  A1007CD-C   Na Va                  524 So
Paradox               1036  B256734-9   Ag                     911 Na
923-438               1040  E559000-0   Ba                     910 Na
Marduk                1101  B3519BA-C N Hi Po                  804 So
Bogatyr               1104  A573875-D                          520 So
Pronea                1105  A211656-A   Ic Na Ni               912 So
Romulus               1110  A997500-B   Ag Ni                  523 So
Cahokia               1112  B454789-A   Ag                     222 So
Camelot               1115  A766546-A   Ag Ni                  124 So
Qadesh                1117  B889544-8   Ni                     600 So
Bonita                1118  C757765-3   Ag                     304 So
Tharsis               1119  B425579-C N Ni                     622 So
Pax                   1120  B100676-C   Na Ni Va               810 So
Newmark               1122  AA6A99B-E   Hi Wa                  100 So
Lagrange              1123  B798879-7                          600 So
Ransom                1125  A5507B8-9   De Po                  224 So
Yamato                1128  A878A9C-E N Hi In                  124 So
Serendip              1131  A7586A9-8   Ag Ni                  810 So
Cheyenne              1135  B765644-A   Ag Ni Ri               412 Na
Nix                   1136  C100569-C   Ni Va                  725 Na
Beowulf               1138  D436674-8   Ni                     734 Na
Gwydion               1139  B69778A-A   Ag                     424 Na
Bleak                 1140  C551331-6   Lo Ni Po               723 Na
Kronos                1202  C400333-8   Lo Ni Va               700 So
Atlantis              1204  A85A974-C   Hi Wa                  620 So
Shulaakish            1205  B566898-9   Ri                     500 So
715-306               1207  E8A5000-0   Ba Fl                  424 So
Thalna                1208  B501374-C   Ic Lo Ni Va            233 So
Marava                1210  A787999-E   Hi                     123 So
Ares                  1211  A450983-C   De Hi Po               303 So
Bitter                1212  A324459-E N Ni                     624 So
Daedalus              1213  A759788-D                          424 So
New Sylea             1216  C988686-5   Ag Ni Ri               525 So
Matuya                1217  B210210-9   Lo Ni                  724 So
Bayern                1220  A576836-7                          624 So
Veracruz              1221  A648955-C   Hi In                  602 So
Heimdall              1223  A886A77-E   Hi                     222 So
Wells                 1224  A746784-8   Ag                     720 So
Kensho                1228  C514350-9   Ic Lo Ni               303 So
Kingston              1230  C7A5133-9   Fl Lo Ni               824 So
Laplace               1231  D334320-8   Lo Ni                  513 So
Malory                1236  C691110-8   Lo Ni                  300 Na
Voltaire              1237  A361578-E   Ni                     600 Na
Napoli                1306  A666876-C   Ri                     124 So
Athos                 1310  C6466BD-3   Ag Ni                  834 So
Perdition             1312  A310310-D   Lo Ni                  711 So
Ghazi                 1313  B543225-9   Lo Ni Po               302 So
Plutarch              1314  D100256-A   Lo Ni Va               222 So
Caliburn              1316  B442422-9   Ni Po                  302 So
Salvador              1320  A2219DF-E   Hi In Na Po            100 So
Hanover               1322  B656754-9 N Ag                     521 So
Garibaldi             1325  BA99688-7   Ni                     802 So
Terra Nova            1326  A758AB7-C   Hi                     234 So
Chasm                 1329  CAA559C-A   Fl Ni                  422 So
Teilhard              1330  C432356-E   Lo Ni Po               514 So
Invictus              1331  B767889-7   Ri                     924 So
Stone                 1337  C200566-9   Ni Va                  624 Na
Masada                1338  A78768C-A   Ag Ni Ri               625 Na
Zion                  1404  A7769A8-A   Hi In                  412 So
Bran                  1405  B865858-C   Ri                     733 So
Olympus               1406  A8D5755-E N Fl                     724 So
Megiddo               1414  B101656-C   Ic Na Ni Va            302 So
Sapphire              1415  A86A633-C N Ni Wa                  624 So
Castile               1419  A6545A9-8   Ag Ni                  324 So
Bastion               1420  A00088D-E   As Na                  711 So
Thule                 1424  A52499C-A   Hi In                  622 So
Crossroads            1426  A8C4301-E N Fl Lo Ni               524 So
Diamond               1428  B628775-8                          321 So
920-226               1435  E586000-0   Ba                     123 Na
Myrddin               1437  C442226-7   Lo Ni Po               600 Na
Cain                  1438  D64A5A6-9   Ni Wa                  902 Na
Selene                1502  A200A89-E N Hi In Na Va            112 So
Poe                   1504  C100257-B   Lo Ni Va               224 So
Apotheosis            1506  A5258DC-B                          510 So
Arda                  1509  X7868AE-2                        R 514 So
Stavros               1512  B533444-C   Ni Po                  324 So
Timur                 1513  D571520-3   Ni                     423 So
Amaranth              1518  C465375-9   Lo Ni                  724 So
Tide                  1522  X65A520-3   Ni Wa                R 902 So
Serai                 1525  B4107BA-B   Na                     622 So
Landfall              1527  A896ACB-E   Hi In                  210 So
Bell                  1528  A428551-D   Ni                     621 So
Lakota                1529  B625630-9   Ni                     434 So
Uriel                 1534  C110242-A   Lo Ni                  623 Na
917-244               1537  X500000-0   Ba Va                  425 Na
Woden                 1539  AA76548-9   Ag Ni                  900 Na
Kupala                1540  C765332-5   Lo Ni                  322 Na
Albadawi              1603  A686885-A   Ri                     934 So
Trimurti              1604  A67798C-D   Hi In                  623 So
Jabru                 1605  B300658-D   Na Ni Va               312 So
Shamash               1611  B9A2667-9   Fl Ni                  103 So
Tintanon              1613  B331233-B   Lo Ni Po               223 So
Razana                1614  B856ACC-C   Hi                     202 So
Alamut                1620  B410587-D N Ni                     224 So
Sheol                 1622  B130557-A   De Ni Po               123 So
Tristan               1623  B772741-9                          823 So
Iskander              1624  A684535-9   Ag Ni                  810 So
Xanthus               1627  B535436-9   Ni                     100 So
Desolation            1629  A6A0620-9   De Ni                  920 So
Kinnison              1636  B411652-B   Ic Na Ni               725 Na
Arcadia               1702  A56678B-B   Ag Ri                  204 So
Dar al-Islam          1703  B979A87-B   Hi In                  123 So
Veldt                 1708  X46397B-3   Hi                   R 835 So
Pugu                  1709  A300768-B   Na Va                  624 So
Inverness             1710  B342566-A   Ni Po                  322 So
Sparta                1711  A2306AC-A N De Na Ni Po            203 So
Verda                 1712  B300622-9   Na Ni Va               834 So
Iolanthe              1722  E478575-5   Ag Ni                  600 So
Indra                 1725  B225643-B   Ni                     111 So
Deseret               1727  B574A7B-A   Hi In                  112 So
Columbia              1728  B446677-B   Ag Ni                  635 So
Telluride             1730  A232A99-E N Hi Na Po               234 So
Arizona               1731  E460652-3   De Ni Ri               224 So
Clarke                1735  C99A636-7   Ni Wa                  100 Na
Merope                1739  E110102-9   Lo Ni                  523 Na
Lisbon                1740  C576444-8   Ni                     300 Na
Altai                 1802  A552876-8   Po                     921 So
Firebird              1804  C575775-7   Ag                     425 So
Brisbane              1806  A8A4400-D   Fl Ni                  223 So
Gizeh                 1810  C553786-5   Po                     204 So
Concord               1818  B5637AA-8                          624 So
Bastet                1819  A330787-A   De Na Po               624 So
Rajastan              1824  C756769-8   Ag                     313 So
Franklin              1829  A8899BB-A   Hi                     610 So
New Nairobi           1830  A3307BC-A   De Na Po               723 So
890-218               1833  X100000-0   Ba Va                  100 Na
Nantucket             1835  C97A210-D   Lo Ni Wa               803 Na
Destiny               1837  D878202-5   Lo Ni                  824 Na
954-490               1839  X8C0000-0   Ba De                  923 Na
Batavia               1902  A9A389B-C N Fl                     924 So
Benedict              1909  A697888-A                          324 So
Malabar               1910  A635567-B   Ni                     803 So
Lorelei               1917  A779457-D   Ni                     924 So
Alilat                1918  B669553-D   Ni                     514 So
Hardship              1919  C5A5312-A   Fl Lo Ni               523 So
Chandra               1924  A310443-E   Ni                     434 So
Pandora               1927  A645ABA-E N Hi In                  200 So
Fraser                1929  B642510-B   Ni Po                  314 So
Kalahari              1935  A460654-B   De Ni Ri               223 Na
918-323               1936  X222000-0   Ba Po                  824 Na
921-997               1937  X8A7000-0   Ba Fl                  810 Na
Damnation             1938  E437435-9   Ni                     521 Na
Plato                 1940  D878220-6   Lo Ni                  324 Na
Muscovy               2002  B876845-A                          124 So
Tesla                 2004  A474A9A-E   Hi In                  204 So
Huaxia                2007  A7789AC-D   Hi In                  325 So
Turing                2010  A34569B-B   Ag Ni                  602 So
Medina                2018  B897887-A N                        724 So
Amida                 2019  C330769-8   De Na Po               934 So
Tagore                2020  A86887A-B   Ri                     224 So
Tormance              2022  AA68AAB-E   Hi                     100 So
Surya                 2023  B997878-B N                        623 So
Mu                    2024  C799498-5   Ni                     900 So
Denali                2027  B539675-8   Ni                     900 So
St. Thomas            2030  B657878-A                          814 So
Pytheas               2035  B5536A9-8   Ni Po                  434 Na
Dis                   2038  E200210-9   Lo Ni Va               411 Na
Baal                  2040  B45048C-9   De Ni Po               422 Na
Kashgar               2102  C534778-8                          110 So
Mictlan               2104  B200404-9   Ni Va                  303 So
Newcastle             2106  B5438BD-8   Po                     713 So
Wovoka                2107  A88A997-E N Hi Wa                  434 So
Memnon                2111  A657655-A   Ag Ni                  821 So
Justinian             2115  C66755A-8   Ag Ni                  902 So
Hector                2116  A200557-D   Ni Va                  314 So
Minos                 2117  X385654-2   Ag Ni Ri             R 223 So
Canyon                2125  BAF5677-7   Fl Ni                  202 So
Refuge                2127  A100A79-E   Hi In Na Va            223 So
Barbary               2128  C6B0622-9   De Ni                  423 So
Armstrong             2132  E110562-9   Ni                     700 So
Scatters              2133  B0008AD-D   As Na                  801 So
890-595               2135  X7C0000-0   Ba De                  300 Na
931-538               2140  E657000-0   Ba                     924 Na
Taliesin              2201  B756833-5                          302 So
Renault               2203  B678755-A   Ag                     133 So
Malta                 2205  A96A877-C N Ri Wa                  101 So
Sabah                 2206  B626755-A                          224 So
Newton                2208  B466945-9   Hi                     222 So
Lucifer               2209  C793432-7   Ni                     100 So
Echo                  2212  A00098A-E N As Hi In Na            533 So
Tecumseh              2213  A777720-C   Ag                     424 So
Tanaroa               2214  C76A563-7   Ni Wa                  902 So
Canaan                2216  A878684-C   Ag Ni                  835 So
Kepler                2218  B000759-B   As Na                  110 So
Rama                  2220  A893678-8   Ni                     323 So
Kashmir               2223  A644976-A   Hi In                  502 So
Faraway               2230  C33568A-9   Ni                     923 So
Wolfe                 2233  A363535-E N Ni                     724 So
911-241               2234  X8A4000-0   Ba Fl                  512 Na
Koshchei              2235  C523212-9   Lo Ni Po               502 Na
Masaya                2239  CAD9356-9   Fl Lo Ni               300 Na
Nzame                 2240  E896233-7   Lo Ni                  104 Na
Temujin               2302  BAB5587-C   Fl Ni                  814 So
Wilkes                2303  D100656-A   Na Ni Va               400 So
Kalmar                2307  A775622-B   Ag Ni                  113 So
Deirdre               2312  X897254-3   Lo Ni                R 101 So
Brilliant             2313  B529999-B   Hi In                  620 So
Anansi                2315  A989451-E   Ni                     324 So
Arjuna                2320  A514652-A   Ic Ni                  504 So
Bharat                2324  A564A9C-E N Hi                     124 So
Touchdown             2339  C8A0301-9   De Lo Ni               723 Na
Ganymede              2340  C410355-B   Lo Ni                  202 Na
Princeton             2403  D412264-7   Ic Lo Ni               122 So
Hermes                2405  B7989BB-9   Hi In                  224 So
Enoch                 2409  B8669B8-A N Hi                     220 So
Paravel               2414  E410157-9   Lo Ni                  910 So
Cybele                2416  A9D899A-A   Fl Hi                  303 So
Guinee                2417  C86A8DF-8   Wa                     300 So
Ariadne               2428  C697667-8   Ag Ni                  201 So
Iona                  2429  A464420-9   Ni                     323 So
Tyre                  2431  A588452-E N Ni                     622 So
Drab                  2432  B430456-B   De Ni Po               602 So
Tintagel              2438  C410201-C   Lo Ni                  913 Na
Sebastos              2502  A566886-B   Ri                     222 So
Locke                 2503  C30077B-A   Na Va                  401 So
Antiquity             2505  A5A2354-E   Fl Lo Ni               300 So
Phaedra               2506  A310855-A   Na                     234 So
Jacaranda             2508  B400678-B   Na Ni Va               924 So
Anderson              2511  A465557-E   Ag Ni                  722 So
Avesta                2512  A62569B-B   Ni                     723 So
Lawrence              2513  B300887-C   Na Va                  703 So
Seraph                2515  C494769-6   Ag                     123 So
Maidan                2517  D200525-9   Ni Va                  124 So
New Hawaii            2518  A67A99A-E   Hi In Wa               514 So
Carnelian             2522  C511438-A   Ic Ni                  134 So
Laomedon              2523  C220387-B   De Lo Ni Po            424 So
Wormwood              2524  C210645-8   Na Ni                  934 So
Jericho               2532  C400465-B   Ni Va                  803 So
936-125               2536  X200000-0   Ba Va                  224 Na
Yama                  2538  C324322-A   Lo Ni                  222 Na
Aztlan                2601  B9898CC-6                          425 So
Helicon               2606  C869773-5   Ri                     113 So
The Realm             2608  A665ADB-C   Hi                     324 So
Ulysses               2613  A75A754-B N Wa                     624 So
Rand                  2614  B322720-8   Na Po                  902 So
Ratri                 2619  C410689-9   Na Ni                  224 So
New Vantage           2620  C9DA477-9   Fl Ni Wa               912 So
Teela                 2621  A444457-C   Ni                     120 So
Coventry              2624  A596687-8   Ag Ni                  424 So
Devaki                2625  A78A7A5-D   Wa                     124 So
Ahriman               2635  B623200-C   Lo Ni Po               834 Na
899-034               2636  X632000-0   Ba Po                  524 Na
Providence            2637  B474424-7   Ni                     925 Na
Amber                 2702  A64699A-E N Hi In                  733 So
Zarathustra           2703  C100858-C   Na Va                  224 So
Arrian                2704  B8B3567-9   Fl Ni                  420 So
Catalunya             2707  B44499C-8   Hi In                  624 So
Aeolus                2708  B766577-6   Ag Ni                  423 So
Botany Bay            2709  B66A944-A N Hi Wa                  220 So
Attica                2717  C325899-9                          525 So
Bazaar                2720  AAB9333-E   Fl Lo Ni               523 So
Saranaki              2722  A41088B-A N Na                     224 So
St. Elias             2726  E220120-9   De Lo Ni Po            610 So
Basilisk              2728  C6737B6-4                          610 So
Outfield              2732  B330323-D   De Lo Ni Po            820 Na
Last Chance           2735  E454253-5   Lo Ni                  923 Na
Bethel                2739  C200200-8   Lo Ni Va               302 Na
Jamshyd               2802  C545566-6   Ag Ni                  523 So
Lynne                 2804  A230556-D   De Ni Po               722 So
Freehold              2806  A654200-B   Lo Ni                  702 So
Tanil                 2813  D696342-6   Lo Ni                  724 So
Buku                  2816  C447688-4   Ag Ni                  900 So
Tyrone                2823  C514543-9   Ic Ni                  734 So
867-853               2824  E410000-0   Ba                     720 So
Gryphon               2825  A984579-B   Ag Ni                  724 So
Manticore             2827  B668513-A   Ag Ni                  624 So
Lilith                2829  E8A6200-8   Fl Lo Ni               225 So
Cyrano                2830  B100201-C N Lo Ni Va               102 So
Libertad              2835  C6598DF-6                          514 Na
Aimend                2836  B685400-A   Ni                     423 Na
Borges                2904  A675922-E   Hi In                  125 So
Paulette              2905  C506385-8   Ic Lo Ni Va            622 So
Alphard               2906  B7A2320-B   Fl Lo Ni               724 So
Kodiak                2907  C876565-5   Ag Ni                  124 So
Ekera                 2912  A400477-B N Ni Va                  120 So
King                  2913  B6B5300-D   Fl Lo Ni               424 So
Hestia                2914  B553553-7   Ni Po                  900 So
Sphinx                2924  B53557B-C   Ni                     824 So
Natal                 2928  D639154-9   Lo Ni                  424 So
Meade                 2932  A200622-B   Na Ni Va               334 Na
941-240               2940  X200000-0   Ba Va                  613 Na
Nesia                 3005  A98A665-9   Ni Ri Wa               623 So
Khemet                3008  CA59984-9   Hi                     723 So
New Salem             3010  B685888-8   Ri                     534 So
Freisen               3019  C687687-4   Ag Ni Ri               912 So
Leviathan             3022  B599525-9   Ni                     123 So
Camlann               3023  B465245-B   Lo Ni                  124 So
Saarinen              3024  C97A565-8   Ni Wa                  422 So
928-749               3025  E210000-0   Ba                     124 So
928-826               3026  E424000-0   Ba                     410 So
Exile                 3028  D88A200-9   Lo Ni Wa               823 So
Xinjiang              3030  B461497-8   Ni                     103 So
Verge                 3034  B55669B-A   Ag Ni                  225 Na
965-736               3036  E57A000-0   Ba Wa                  603 Na
Argos                 3104  A000563-E N As Ni                  914 So
Xanadu                3106  A886444-A   Ni                     922 So
Firdausi              3107  A778ABF-C   Hi In                  224 So
Danaus                3113  D566688-6   Ag Ni Ri               634 So
Oceanus               3115  AA7A411-E   Ni Wa                  900 So
Coburg                3116  C544766-5   Ag                     423 So
Lysander              3118  A000977-D N As Hi In Na            625 So
831-221               3124  E534000-0   Ba                     402 So
Rashnu                3125  C546251-8   Lo Ni                  621 So
Starkad               3126  C898646-4   Ag Ni                  733 So
Theodosius            3131  B7B2321-C   Fl Lo Ni               421 So
944-270               3135  E476000-0   Ba                     913 Na
Etain                 3202  B776777-9   Ag                     522 So
New Beijing           3203  C524632-8   Ni                     110 So
Styx                  3205  B5A0745-9   De                     823 So
Lamia                 3206  C200589-9   Ni Va                  622 So
Freya                 3209  B765AAA-9   Hi                     134 So
Cilicia               3215  C5846A7-5   Ag Ni                  222 So
Faust                 3216  A647410-D   Ni                     524 So
Elysium               3218  B755576-8   Ag Ni                  912 So
856-015               3228  X8C8000-0   Ba Fl                  514 So
Elis                  3233  C5597AE-4                          224 Na
Forward               3234  B524444-C   Ni                     623 Na
--part1_e4.25704b2c.29dcb669_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
Message-ID: <164.b8cd038.29dcb7e0@aol.com>

Oh, bloody hell.

Ignore that, everyone. Was meant for private email.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:33:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:33:44 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
Message-ID: <200204032032.DHB01917@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

JFZeigler@aol.com  says
>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur 
>historian, freelance writer, occasional scribbler of bad 
>poetry

At least you're not a stand-up philosopher.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
Message-ID: <126.e80c5ee.29dcc2a2@aol.com>

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In a message dated 03/04/02 00:50:39 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


> > _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
> > mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
> > reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
> > but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
> > 
> > [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.
> 
> Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are
> interfertile.
> 

Depends on what you mean by "interfertile" some species (including ones with 
differing numbers of chromosomes) can interbreed but not produce fertile 
young.

The horse family is the classic example of this (horse (64 chromosomes) + 
donkey (62 chromosomes) = mule (63 chromosomes)), although interbreeding of 
captive big cats is not uncommon. Interestingly I'm not aware of any great 
ape interbreeding.

If you mean interbreed and produce fertile young there's a question over 
whether most of the subspecies of human could. Genetic drift after three 
hundred thousand years or so of isolation is likely to have had some 
interesting consequences. Genetic engineering of seperated groups by assorted 
Ancients is unlikely to have helped.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:50:39 GMT Daylight Time, webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been<BR>
&gt; mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the<BR>
&gt; reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,<BR>
&gt; but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.<BR>
<BR>
Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are<BR>
interfertile.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Depends on what you mean by "interfertile" some species (including ones with differing numbers of chromosomes) can interbreed but not produce fertile young.<BR>
<BR>
The horse family is the classic example of this (horse (64 chromosomes) + donkey (62 chromosomes) = mule (63 chromosomes)), although interbreeding of captive big cats is not uncommon. Interestingly I'm not aware of any great ape interbreeding.<BR>
<BR>
If you mean interbreed and produce fertile young there's a question over whether most of the subspecies of human could. Genetic drift after three hundred thousand years or so of isolation is likely to have had some interesting consequences. Genetic engineering of seperated groups by assorted Ancients is unlikely to have helped.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_126.e80c5ee.29dcc2a2_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <3CAB69B2.95EE7DA@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>
> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
> 2 worlds
>
  >>
  .....YES!!!FINALLY!!!.....

[I think] John-Martin wrote:
>have you ever seen my semi-regular Binges rant?

Actually, I think I missed it. 

As a representative of a low pop world, I want to hear 
more about this.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <200204032049.DHB04097@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

><snippage>
>> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
>> 2 worlds
>>

I always thought that these were either scientific 
establishments - OR -

Laning's Retirement Palace
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:00:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 13:00:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Questions, questions
Message-ID: <172.62e952a.29dcc73c@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 19:53:37 GMT Daylight Time, 
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:


> > 1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to 
> > remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible
> 
> Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's 
> ridiculous as well. Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens, 
> H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.

Are you sure you mean H. hablis? Evolved circa 2.2 myr ago died out probably 
around 1.5 - 1.6 myr ago AFAIK.

The candidates as far as I see it are H. heidelbergensis, H. neatherthalensis 
or H. erectus. Neanderthals and erectus are both probably poor choices which 
leaves us with H. heidelbergensis, which is logical since heidelbergensis 
used to be known as archaic homo sapiens. 

> 
> A more logical explanation would be that Gramps took H. hablis, geneered 
> the species into H. sap, and re-seeded Terra, as well as Zhodane and 
> Vland (and all the other planets) with the new species.
> 
> Would explain some of the more puzzling aspects of our evolution...
> 
This is almost certainly it since H. heidelbergensis is probably the direct 
ancestor of H. sapiens.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 19:53:37 GMT Daylight Time, johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; 1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to <BR>
&gt; remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible<BR>
<BR>
Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's <BR>
ridiculous as well. Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens, <BR>
H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Are you sure you mean H. hablis? Evolved circa 2.2 myr ago died out probably around 1.5 - 1.6 myr ago AFAIK.<BR>
<BR>
The candidates as far as I see it are H. heidelbergensis, H. neatherthalensis or H. erectus. Neanderthals and erectus are both probably poor choices which leaves us with H. heidelbergensis, which is logical since heidelbergensis used to be known as archaic homo sapiens. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
A more logical explanation would be that Gramps took H. hablis, geneered <BR>
the species into H. sap, and re-seeded Terra, as well as Zhodane and <BR>
Vland (and all the other planets) with the new species.<BR>
<BR>
Would explain some of the more puzzling aspects of our evolution...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
This is almost certainly it since H. heidelbergensis is probably the direct ancestor of H. sapiens.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_172.62e952a.29dcc73c_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 13:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
Message-ID: <175.62e4c55.29dcca53@aol.com>

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In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk 
writes:


> >Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
> >ridiculous as well.
> 
> No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H. 
> erectus_
> and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
> actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
> it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
> showing up as early as that.

H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say 
I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H. 
sapiens back that far. If by archaic H. sapiens you mean H. heidelbergensis 
then you're right.

> 
> But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
> tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In
> the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place
> _H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.

True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are 
descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even 
more arrogant than they already are.

> 
> >Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens,
> >H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.
> 
> _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
> mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
> reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
> but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
> 
> [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.
> 
> 
> Hans
> 

The Solomani Institute of Extraterrestrial Human Studies votes for H. 
heidelbergensis zhodotlas and H. heidelbergensis vlandensis :)

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's<BR>
&gt;ridiculous as well.<BR>
<BR>
No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H. erectus_<BR>
and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That<BR>
actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing<BR>
it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_<BR>
showing up as early as that.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H. sapiens back that far. If by archaic H. sapiens you mean H. heidelbergensis then you're right.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up<BR>
tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In<BR>
the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place<BR>
_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even more arrogant than they already are.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
&gt;Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens,<BR>
&gt;H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.<BR>
<BR>
_H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been<BR>
mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the<BR>
reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,<BR>
but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.<BR>
<BR>
[*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hans<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
The Solomani Institute of Extraterrestrial Human Studies votes for H. heidelbergensis zhodotlas and H. heidelbergensis vlandensis :)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_175.62e4c55.29dcca53_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr  3 13:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <20020402201432.444efd17.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEKEDJAA.tml@downport.com>

All of the news that's fit to print, of course. But ideas already on the
table are posted at http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=40

and yes, poly-tics needs to be woven through the whole organization. For
instance, not just anyone can join the TAS. You must roll to avoid the
blacklist... and who maintains this mysterious list?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

How much material are you aiming at? What kind?

I imagine TAS could be used as an alternative to the intrigues among the
noble families. After all, the idle rich are always a good source for
strife. Just look at the old-school soap operas (Dallas, Falcon Crest,
etc) out there...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Corridor PBEM, or What Happens When You Retire
Message-ID: <200204032215.DHD09409@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

If you're interested and already sent me an e-mail, please re-
confirm by sending me your character. If you are just 
interested, please send me your character.  Please use CT 
LBB, Book4, 5, Scouts, Merchant Prince, or Citizens.

The campaign begins at a beautiful retirement enclave, built 
by a previous band of adventurers who initially made their 
fortune during the Fifth Frontier War.  Various adventurers 
have been attracted to, and joined the enclave in their 
retirement.  The enclave has been a patron to other 
adventurers as well.

More on the enclave and its location in a moment...
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Universal TwistsTable
Message-ID: <20020403.143010.-258599.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

Rachel

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 02:37:18 +0800 "Rachel Kronick"
<rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net> writes:
> Hi all!
> 
> I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists 
> Table (UTT), where you roll and a result like "Antagonist turns out 
> to be Protagonist's long-lost relative" or "20 drunken goons ambush 
> the PC on the way home" or whatever come up.  we could make a 
> big UTT with a thousand or so entries so repeats are rare...
> 
> -- 

Sounds like a great idea, run with it...

I can't think of any at the moment, my brain needs a jump start. Perhaps
posting ideas will inspire others [including myself] to think up a few,
then you could develop the table from the plentiful results, after all,
it was your idea.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <3CABBC5E.30314.BCBF6D@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402205809.027d9ba0@pop.wizard.net>
 <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403173248.02493b60@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:37 AM 4/4/02 +0800, you wrote:
>Hi all!
>
>I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists
>Table (UTT), where you roll and a result like "Antagonist turns out
>to be Protagonist's long-lost relative" or "20 drunken goons ambush
>the PC on the way home" or whatever come up.  we could make a
>big UTT with a thousand or so entries so repeats are rare...
>
>-- Rachel

Good idea, and I applaud and admire it.

The really surprising surprise is more like what I had in mind.  Not "what 
is their true motivation, really?" but "You walk to the mailbox and hear a 
strange click as you open it.  Some sixth sense makes you jump to the 
side.  An explosion plumes out of the mouth of the mailbox, right through 
where you were just standing.  There are nasty-looking steel darts embedded 
very deeply in the tree on the opposite side of the street."  Something 
totally out of the blue.  And you can't use my exploding-mailbox random 
event because you've already written it so you know it _might_ happen.

The best conceptual approach I've devised so far is we help each other out 
by writing random events, posting them via the Internet to each other, and 
then we can each use someone else's random events and some dice or other 
random number generator.  No peeking allowed.

Alternatively, there was the suggested approach of "it's a lot like playing 
chess against yourself".  But only the most scrupulously intellectually 
honest person could really do that up right.  I'd be very tempted to let my 
munchkinness run wild, for instance.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <200204032049.DHB04097@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403174814.0255e1a0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon retorts:
> ><snippage>
> >> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
> >> 2 worlds
>
>I always thought that these were either scientific
>establishments - OR -
>
>Laning's Retirement Palace

Heh.  Nah.  It's nice to think that there might be nearly "unspoiled" 
worlds like that somewhere, but I wouldn't want to live on them.  For one 
thing, the TML would be pretty lacking in activity on a place like that.  I 
need more intellectual activities than can be provided by a population of 
less than 100 sophonts.  You could always posit that those ninety people 
are the ninety most brilliant and knowledgeable people who ever lived, I 
guess.  It's a retirement palace for the best and the brightest.  But then 
you'd have to explain why they let me retire there too!

Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major 
metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a 
twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to ride my 
bicycle around on for training and take different routes each day.  Fifteen 
miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest needs.  Really.  Don't 
forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] heaven and earth
Message-ID: <200204032300.DHF06393@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

does anyone know where I can find a list of known bugs?

also, I wouldn't mind porting this to Smalltalk.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Laning wrote:
Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major 
metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a 
twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to ride my 
bicycle around on for training and take different routes each day.  Fifteen 
miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest needs.  Really.  Don't 
forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.

--Laning



How about this Laning?
http://www.trinityyachts.com/seahawk.htm

The boat's also detailed in the current (April 2002) issue of Yachting.  Drop me
an e-mail if you want me to send you some scans ;)

Jesse
wyrwolff@yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:16:02 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB8CD5.530DEA4@premier.net>


"DeGraff, Jesse" wrote:
> 
> Laning wrote:
> Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major
> metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a
> twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to ride my
> bicycle around on for training and take different routes each day.  Fifteen
> miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest needs.  Really.  Don't
> forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.
> 
> --Laning
> 
> How about this Laning?
> http://www.trinityyachts.com/seahawk.htm
> 
> The boat's also detailed in the current (April 2002) issue of Yachting.  Drop me
> an e-mail if you want me to send you some scans ;)
> 
Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)

Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:

http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEKEDJAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <20020402201432.444efd17.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403181532.02492b50@pop.wizard.net>

>I imagine TAS could be used as an alternative to the intrigues among the
>noble families. After all, the idle rich are always a good source for
>strife. Just look at the old-school soap operas (Dallas, Falcon Crest,
>etc) out there...

True enough.  I live in the suburbs between Washington, D.C. and the 
fox-hunting Virginia countryside where there are dozens of billionaires 
with a B, and the big hunt/horse events are an important part of the social 
calendar for zillionaires from all over the world.  Every time there's a 
murder in Middleburg or something, it shows up as a made-for-TV movie two 
years later.  Like clockwork.  :->

'Dallas' & 'Falcon Crest' are old school soap operas?!  One of us is dating 
ourselves, 'cuz I see something like 'As The World Turns' as old school and 
'Dallas' as a recent fad.  And of course there were the old radio shows 
that were before my time; they actually were sponsored by soap 
companies.  It's all subjective, I guess.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:22:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:22:28 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
In-Reply-To: <3CAB8CD5.530DEA4@premier.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACELDCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

John Groth says
[Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:]

Nice.  But where is the triple laser turret?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:27:02 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" l
 ong)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

That's not a yacht, it's a pocket cruise ship ;)
Jesse


John Groth proclaimed:
Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)

Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:

http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:29:02 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACELDCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3CAB8FE7.32401A30@premier.net>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> John Groth says
> [Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:]
> 
> Nice.  But where is the triple laser turret?

Not mounted.  As _Britannia_ was designed for rapid conversion to a
hospital ship at need, the laws of war forbid mounting of offensive
weapons.

I am given to understand, however, that the 2 3-pdr. saluting guns are
point-defense capable.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] heaven and earth
In-Reply-To: <200204032300.DHF06393@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D0D965.34814%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/3/02 3:00 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> does anyone know where I can find a list of known bugs?
> 
> also, I wouldn't mind porting this to Smalltalk.

Just a word of warning.  I got the source for a possible mac port.  It
written in VB.  There's on source file that's over a meg.  AAARRRGG.

I thought it would be an easy post to the mac using RealBasic.  Boy was I
wrong.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FA@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net>

Jesse DeGraff says:

>How about this Laning?
>http://www.trinityyachts.com/seahawk.htm
>
>The boat's also detailed in the current (April 2002) issue of 
>Yachting.  Drop me
>an e-mail if you want me to send you some scans ;)

Hmm, that's pretty nice.  :->

But it doesn't seem to have a suitable helicopter.  And I'd prefer to have 
a spot more conducive to sunning while cruising slowly or at anchor.  With 
cocktails.  And where's the swimming pool?  Some of the yachts found at the 
link you posted a few weeks back had swimming pools.

Remember, I'm a man of a modest needs, but you can't honestly expect me to 
want for all those basic necessities can you?  :->

I'd pull up one or two yachts from that other site, but the computer where 
my bookmarks live is currently a little under the weather.

I'd really like the yacht to be a sailboat but that plays hell with trying 
to use the helicopter, or even where to keep the car.

--Laning
Sheez, that Trinity yacht has a 38-footer listed as one of its tenders.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FC@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403191641.00a990b0@pop.wizard.net>

>John Groth proclaimed:
>Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)
>
>Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:
>
>http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

Yes, that might be suitable.  A bit old though, don't you think?  And it 
probably needs some pretty extensive remodelling for the helopad and hangar.

Remember, I'm a man of modest needs.

--Laning

PS  Both of those yachts were good fodder for my budding Traveller 
campaign.  I thank you.  I think my wife and I will have fun together 
looking at the online tour of HM Britannia.  :->

I wonder...should the truly luxurious yacht owner carry his own ocean-going 
yacht in the hold of his star yacht?  Captain Nemo probably would.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/3/02 4:14 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Hmm, that's pretty nice.  :->
> 
> But it doesn't seem to have a suitable helicopter.  And I'd prefer to have
> a spot more conducive to sunning while cruising slowly or at anchor.  With
> cocktails.  And where's the swimming pool?  Some of the yachts found at the
> link you posted a few weeks back had swimming pools.
> 
> Remember, I'm a man of a modest needs, but you can't honestly expect me to
> want for all those basic necessities can you?  :->


Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?

http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html

Now that's what I am talking about.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] using heaven and earth
Message-ID: <200204040040.DHJ01676@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod, how hard was it to take the output from h&e (html) and 
turn it into what you have for the spinwardmarches site?

I am thinking of doing the same thing for Corridor.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Suddenly, Blackmoore Heavy Industries (builders of the Acipiter series ships and
others) branches off to wet-ship design.  Pretty impressive when you consider
they're asteroid based ;)
Jesse


Kindest Sophont Laning,
Regarding your RFP for a "modest", helicopter (how quaint!) equipped motoryacht,
are you looking for something in an expedition style yacht
[http://www.yachtworld.com/expeditionyachts/expeditionyachts_3.html], something
classical [http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/], or something a little more
aggressive looking? [http://www.newzealandyachts.com/].

Best Regards,
David Phoenecius
Blackmoore Heavy Industries


-----Original Message-----
From: laning [mailto:laning@wizard.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 4:26 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)



>John Groth proclaimed:
>Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)
>
>Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:
>
>http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

Yes, that might be suitable.  A bit old though, don't you think?  And it 
probably needs some pretty extensive remodelling for the helopad and hangar.

Remember, I'm a man of modest needs.

--Laning

PS  Both of those yachts were good fodder for my budding Traveller 
campaign.  I thank you.  I think my wife and I will have fun together 
looking at the online tour of HM Britannia.  :->

I wonder...should the truly luxurious yacht owner carry his own ocean-going 
yacht in the hold of his star yacht?  Captain Nemo probably would.

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:02:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:02:37 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <20020403.170340.-179719.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

> Laning wrote:
> Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major 
> metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a 
> twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to
> ride my bicycle around on for training and take different routes each
> day.  Fifteen miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest
> needs.  Really. Don't forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.
> 
> --Laning

Why not just take Catalina Island off the Southern California's Long
Beach coast.
Live in Wriggly's mansion, and enslave Avalon harbor. 
They have a small harbor, a private small plane airstrip, a secluded
school for Mercenary training, room for a submarine base, accessible by
sea plane, helicopter, yacht, or small plane, and if you like the
outdoors, a small herd of Bison.

Don't worry about the rattlesnakes, they'll at least warn you before they
strike.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
Message-ID: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission 
times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had 
holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might 
be traded on many worlds.

Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was 
traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on 
that world traded electronically.

You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
to try and offset this sort of risk?

Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017882903.8505.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission 
> times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had 
> holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might 
> be traded on many worlds.
> 
> Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was 
> traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on 
> that world traded electronically.
> 
> You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
> stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
> get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
> to try and offset this sort of risk?

Aside from a broker on Regina who handles the investment for you?  No.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:16:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:16:35 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEKKDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Sort of gives you a reminder of how stock brokers got so powerful. A century
ago you REALLY had to trust your brokerage to do what was in your best
interest.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission
times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had
holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might
be traded on many worlds.

Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was
traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on
that world traded electronically.

You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the
stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to
get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments
to try and offset this sort of risk?

Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
Message-ID: <20020403.173322.-179719.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:08:21 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
> stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
> get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
> to try and offset this sort of risk?
> 
> Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?
>

One would assume that your portfolio in the 57th century would have a lot
more safeguards than todays economic choices and options. Todays brokers
can key in a buy or sell if above or below a certain point. The future
would be so electronic, computerization so A.I. that your entire
portfolio could change, grow, etc, while you're out jumping around the
galaxy. But because of your pre-jump commands to your home computer,
you'd have no worry's at all, in fact if programmed right you'd be making
Credits all the time.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEPKGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

hmmm, 
stock futures? invest in as basket of 
stocks.  put a proportion of your stock 
in mega corps __ if they crash the 
imperium has probably crashed so you 
really don't need to worry ... too much :)

jml
_____________
my other computer runs BSD
and another, Mac OS 9, and 
another NT, and .....
you get the idea

jml
jmlotzn1@pacbell.net
_________________





I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission 
times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had 
holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might 
be traded on many worlds.

Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was 
traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on 
that world traded electronically.

You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
to try and offset this sort of risk?

Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] book two ship building
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEPNGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I've been thinking again,  one potentialy cool thing
to contemplate is that each race can have different types
of standard ship elements.  Aslan optimize for m drive 
speed.  Vagyar ships are optimized as m3 j2 pp 3 ships for 
every default hull, Zho ships have smaller j drives but 
the m drives are bigger and so on, unless it is design to 
run without a PSI aboard in which case both drives are 
too big. Or for instance the Ante Spinward yards has a 
standard hull with a different drive, hull ratio.

much coolness with too much violence the rules.

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:58:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:58:07 2002
Subject: [TML] book two ship building ( minor correction thingee )
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEPNGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEPNGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

errr that should be

much coolness without too much violence the rules.
                  ^^^
________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] book two ship building ( minor correction thingee )
Message-ID: <200204040203.DHL05589@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

John-Martin says
>
>errr that should be
>
>much coolness without too much violence the rules.
>                  ^^^

I don't know. It seems nearly impossible to "really" damage a 
ship in High Guard.  If you compare the amount of damage that 
can be done with, say four triple beam turrets in LBB 2, and 
try that same amount of weaponry in HG, at least I have a 
chance of getting critical hits in LBB 2.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net> <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020404122756.A18722@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?

Come on now, *any* boat can submerge :)

> http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html

... though I must admit the ability to come back up again does have
some appeal.  Interestingly enough, this sub is almost exactly 100
dtons.  Only $78 million, too.  That would be what, 20 MCrImp?  Not
far off the cost of a 100-dton starship :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net> <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020404122756.A18722@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CABBC6C.54730FB0@premier.net>


Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Tod Glenn wrote:
> > Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?
> 
> Come on now, *any* boat can submerge :)
> 
> > http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html
> 
> ... though I must admit the ability to come back up again does have
> some appeal.

To paraphrase the advice a med tech game me several years ago:

Water on the outside, air on the inside.  Any deviation is bad.*

*The actual advice was "The air goes in and out, the blood goes 'round
and 'round.  Any deviation is bad."

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
In-Reply-To: <164.b8cd038.29dcb7e0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CAC67AA.23713.6F6A07@localhost>

On 3 Apr 2002, at 14:54, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:

> Oh, bloody hell.
> 
> Ignore that, everyone. Was meant for private email.

This is not the sector you're looking for, move along.

(Well someone had to say it)

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
Message-ID: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>

Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered 
seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat 
that had not a conventional sail, but basically an 
airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing 
around trying to find information and pictures about 
this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more 
info about this boat or have any links?

Jesse


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Information, please:  Kians
Message-ID: <OFC3572B3F.B36E56CE-ONCA256B91.0013E1A4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Larsen asked:
>Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians

Have a look in my Library Data under "K" - "Kian". There's a whole entry 
on them (sans picture, sorry!), including these CT stats:

Number  Animal Type  Weight  Hits   Armour  Wounds and Weapons 
10-60   Grazer       400 kg  25/10  jack    10 Hooves A9 F4 S3 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Beowulf Down update - Letter of Marque!
Message-ID: <OF41324AB5.DC2907F0-ONCA256B91.0014375C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Got my 'Net access back last night, and to celebrate I uploaded a blank 
Letter of Marque, plus a few filled-in LoM's for the PC's in my campaign.

(I also forgot to mention I added a few new taglines. Oh yeah, and a j-6 
map to the Tavonni RICE Paper. I'll really have to update my "Just 
Detected" page!  ;-).

For the blank one, either go in through "Just Detected", or via Tavonni 
Repair Bays ==> Other Assorted Notes ==> Letter of Marque.

To find the filled-in LoM's, again go thru "Just Detected", or via Tavonni 
Specialities ==> Adifux Inc LIC ==> then the various Letters of Marque.

BTW, did anyone have any comments on my _Robots_ rules fixes?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:59:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:59:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Electronic Copy of MT Ruleset?
Message-ID: <OFA21335D5.ACFFA0F8-ONCA256B91.00154011@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

I asked this a couple of months ago, but got no reply:

        A year or more ago, someone on the TML offered us the MT rules in 
electronic form.

        Marc apparently allows the person to release a limited number of 
copies per year (provided the recipient can show proof-of-purchase).

        Can anyone tell me:
                (a) who the person is;
                (b) how I can get in contact with them; and
                (c) if any copies are available *this* year?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <OF0CB4ECE7.A245C0B1-ONCA256B91.00169DC3@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>> Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
>> opposed to deuterium or tritium)?
>
>No, P-P probably would be phosphorus.  I should have written p-p.

Um, maybe H-H, hydrogen to hydrogen (as opposed to D-D deuterium-to-D, or 
T-T tritium-to T)?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <200204040421.UAA31186@ping.iii.com>

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au writes:

>Dear Folks -
>
>>> Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
>>> opposed to deuterium or tritium)?
>>
>>No, P-P probably would be phosphorus.  I should have written p-p.
>
>Um, maybe H-H, hydrogen to hydrogen (as opposed to D-D deuterium-to-D, or 
>T-T tritium-to T)?

Nope.  H is insufficiently clear, since deuterium and tritium _are_ 
hydrogen.  p for proton.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402080234.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20403.202553.7U7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 03:43 AM 4/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
>>>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...
>>
>>Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug, 
>>your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead 
>>GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is 
>>despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode 
>>of eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.
>>
>>--Laning, Canoneer of God
>
> I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
>
> (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
>
> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

"Eppur, si mouve..." is the original, I believe? 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
References: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <3CABDBEE.7B9724CC@pobox.com>

Check out http://www.windrocket.com/index.html.

WKH

JDEGRAFF@sbcglobal.net wrote:

> Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered
> seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat
> that had not a conventional sail, but basically an
> airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing
> around trying to find information and pictures about
> this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more
> info about this boat or have any links?
>
> Jesse
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
In-Reply-To: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
References: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <dklnauohlk3ounbqd2b03igvg33l5810e9@4ax.com>

On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:38:37 -0500, JDEGRAFF@sbcglobal.net wrote:

>Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered=20
>seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat=20
>that had not a conventional sail, but basically an=20
>airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing=20
>around trying to find information and pictures about=20
>this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more=20
>info about this boat or have any links?

I had seen the reference as well.  The key Google term turns out to be
"wingsail" and a couple standard publicity shots can be found at
http://www.lusas.com/images/yacht.gif,
http://www.formsys.com/Maxsurf/MSLaunchingsPage/WalkerWingsailPic1.gif
or http://www.boatshow.com/IMAGES/SAILBOATS/waz001aT4.jpg.  Sorry, but
both of the images are similar and small, but should be enough to
confirm what you remember.

The depicted boat is the Zephyr 43.  Unfortunately, it appears that
Walker Wingsail is no longer in business.

A much smaller alternative, but definitely interesting in appearance
is at
http://www.marinersguide.com/dockswap/national/messages/115.html,
though as one correspondent had it, there was a buoyancy problem.
When the 200 lbs pilot carried his child on his lap, the vessel tended
to submarine.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <20020403123426.04d59074.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20403.203116.4A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> laning wrote:
>> By the way, Jens, have you read Hal Clement's 'Mission of Gravity'?
>> A great example of intelligent alien life forms evolving on a world
>> extremely different from Terra.  A just plain extreme world, in
>> fact.  Clement opens the hood and lets us peer into a lot of the
>> alien building he does.  The book's a classic, in fact.

> Nope, I haven't. And I doubt that the library has that book in stock.
> I've placed it on the list of books to look for now, though.

You may want to see if you can get copies of "The Essential Hal
Clement" Volumes I, II and III. Volume III has Mission of Gravity, the
sequel "Star Light", and several short stories that are related.

The set has a lot of strange world or aliens that are good for
springing on folks not familiar with SF from that era.

And they aren't bad reading as long as you realized that the worlds are
as much "characters" as the sophonts.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:29:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:29:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20403.204017.2N3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at
> doorlocks etc...
>
> How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior is
> exposed to Vacuum?
>
> Not many...
>
> Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by
> being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a recording
> being played over radio)
>
> I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices
> relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad ID
> number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the
> card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you
> have access to your account.

Actually, even *now* there exist systems that use an access card that
you merely have to have on your person, not even in sight.

Basicly, the access mechanism sends a bunch of different frequency
radio signals out and the card resonates at a set of them that
consitutute the access code. Purely passive, no power required in the
card. 

If this was common, you'd have a "switch" to disable the resonance, so
folks couldn't read your codes as you walked by (then again, if you've
got more than one card, they won't know which frequencies go with which
card :-)

This would be good for stuff that needs to work while you are suited. 

Add simple PIN codes to deal with stolen cards and you are doing pretty
good. 

And at the higher frequencies you could have thousands of discrete
frequencies with a code consisting a few dozen or two. That's make
trying to "pick" the lock problematic. Not impossible, just time
consuming.

Especially if it has "traps" like frequencies that are *never* used by
the cards, and thus indicate a possible attempt to pick the lock. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
Message-ID: <AA-FD46A220263513E872C2C5D66B592F00-ZZ@homebase1.prodigy.net>

Same idea, but the one I'm looking for was at *least* 
a 40 footer...

Jesse


--- Original Message ---
From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing 
Yachts

>Check out http://www.windrocket.com/index.html.
>
>WKH
>
>JDEGRAFF@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
>> Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I 
remembered
>> seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat
>> that had not a conventional sail, but basically an
>> airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been 
Google'ing
>> around trying to find information and pictures about
>> this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know 
more
>> info about this boat or have any links?
>>
>> Jesse
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TML mailing list
>> TML@travellercentral.com
>> 
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
Message-ID: <AA-859664D2580835FD9C720DB5289F1E5A-ZZ@homebase1.prodigy.net>

THAT'S what I was looking for!  Thanks!  It's 
unfortunate that the pics are so small, but oh 
well :)  I tried about 15-20 different thing when 
looking for the bloody thing, but "wingsail" wasn't 
one of them.  "Wing sail" WAS one of them but I likely 
didn't dig deep enough.

Thanks again!
Jesse

<snip JR Holmes' work>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] If the TML seems sluggish...
Message-ID: <B8D13B56.3730F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

If the TML seems sluggish it's probably because I am in the process of
converting old mail archives to the new online archive format.

I expect to recover all archives back to mid 2001 without difficulty.

I've been looking over the archives from the past (back to 1995) and
converting them may take quite a bit of work.

I hope to be able to convert all existing TML (and XBOAT) archives into the
new format.  I may need to tap into some skilled brainpower of the TML.
Stay tuned.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:36:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:36:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Kians
Message-ID: <d8.15e7e500.29dd568a@aol.com>

--part1_d8.15e7e500.29dd568a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>     Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
>kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
>pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
>Cavalry.
>     Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?

  JTAS #9, per the "JTAS Index" from Jim V., posted 1 Mar 2002?

   Hey,
   Stats for these Tauntaun knock-offs were also provided in The Best of the 
Journal #3 (which I'm reading right now). 
   Says here they're large, plains-dwelling, herbivore grazers that travel in 
herds. Originally from Prilissa/Trin's Veil, but are exported, and now a 
common sight Coreward.
   Extremely good eyesight and hearing. Eat 30-50kg plant matter/day.
   Can carry up to 250kg comfortably. If overloaded, it'll refuse to move.

   (CT Stats follow)   
#       Type       Wt        Hits     Armor   Wounds & Weapons
10-60 Grazer     400kg   25/10   jack      10   Hooves  A9  F4  S3

   -Ken Murphy- 
   

--part1_d8.15e7e500.29dd568a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
<BR>&gt;kian hails from? &nbsp;I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
<BR>&gt;pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
<BR>&gt;Cavalry.
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;JTAS #9, per the "JTAS Index" from Jim V., posted 1 Mar 2002?
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Hey,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Stats for these Tauntaun knock-offs were also provided in The Best of the Journal #3 (which I'm reading right now). 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Says here they're large, plains-dwelling, herbivore grazers that travel in herds. Originally from Prilissa/Trin's Veil, but are exported, and now a common sight Coreward.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Extremely good eyesight and hearing. Eat 30-50kg plant matter/day.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Can carry up to 250kg comfortably. If overloaded, it'll refuse to move.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;(CT Stats follow) &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR># &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Type &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Wt &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hits &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Armor &nbsp;&nbsp;Wounds &amp; Weapons
<BR>10-60 Grazer &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;400kg &nbsp;&nbsp;25/10 &nbsp;&nbsp;jack &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;10 &nbsp;&nbsp;Hooves &nbsp;A9 &nbsp;F4 &nbsp;S3
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;-Ken Murphy- 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_d8.15e7e500.29dd568a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:37:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:37:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403231032.00ab9320@pop.wizard.net>

>You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the
>stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to
>get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments
>to try and offset this sort of risk?
>
>Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?

People familiar with the market can _always_ fleece someone in the public, 
in fact that's generally what they are doing at any given moment.  At least 
in the good ol' US of A.  (I was a stockbroker in one of my former lives.)

Pretty standard options contracts should cover it.  The same ones that are 
traded now.  Plus you could do other things to try to hedge.  But, except 
in very extraordinary and usually fleeting situations, you won't be able to 
completely eliminate your risk unless you are also willing to eliminate 
your potential profit.

What a lot of people never realize about options, is the contracts are 
_not_ issued by the company that you're trading in, they have nothing to do 
with it.  And in fact, a lot of people have trouble understanding that when 
they buy shares of a stock, they (usually) are not buying the shares 
directly from the company, except in initial public offerings when a 
company goes from privately held to publicly held.  After the IPO, the 
members of the public who bought the shares will sell them to other members 
of the public from time to time, and they in turn may sell them to others, 
and so on and on.  When you buy a stock that is traded on an exchange, 
you're buying it from another investor just like you (or maybe not so much 
like you, heh) and the two of you are basically negotiating a bet on how 
much you each think the shares will be worth in the future.  I sell IBM at 
70 because I think the shares are going in the crapper, and you buy it at 
70 because you think the next annual report will spark investor 
confidence.  In other words, it's all just legalized gambling where people 
bet on what the mob psychology is going to be.

Now that we have that crude primer out of the way for people who are less 
acquianted with the fundamentals.

Stock exchanges on 21st century Terra all get information as soon as 
everybody else in existence get it.  It's a globally connected world, and 
valuable information moves at lightning speed.  There is nobody off world, 
so they don't need worry about a time delay.  Unless you count shuttle or 
space station personnel, and their time delay is neglible for purposes of 
this discussion.  So, everyone who is negotiating a bet on what the value 
of stock in Thingie Corp at this particular microsecond is theoretically 
party to the same information that the person on their side of their 
negotiation is.

If you send some of the people who trade in the stock off to a different 
planet, and it takes basically a week for information from this planet to 
reach that planet, then the smart thing to do is create an exchange on that 
far away planet where people there can trade the stock.  All the people at 
the faraway planet are theoretically party to new and relevant information 
at the same time as the rest of the folks at that planet.

In practice, this may not always be true.  Jump times are approximately one 
week, but depending on the dice and the quality of your ship's navigator 
you may make the journey roughly a day faster or a day slower.  If you can 
manage to reach Glisten from Regina a day sooner than anyone else who left 
Regina the same time you did, then you have one day during which you know 
something they don't know.

If the local exchange(s) at Glisten are trading in Regina FunCorp, ILC then 
they'll all be sharing the same stale, weeks-old news, and their trading 
decisions will be based on that news.  If you just happen to reach Glisten 
a day early, and you just happen to know that Regina FunCorp announced 
moments before you left that their CEO is being fired for malfeasance, 
there is a Regina Justice Department investigation into major auditing 
irregularities, and their comptroller just committed suicide when he 
received a subpoena, then you have an opportunity to short the hell out of 
Regina FunCorp on Glisten at prices the locals are probably willing to give 
you but wouldn't dream of if they knew the latest news.

In other words, each world with significant levels of commerce will almost 
certainly have its own stock exchange and shares traded elsewhere in the 
Imperium (or outside it, in many cases) may also be traded there.  It 
doesn't guarantee they _will_ be traded there.  Only if there's sufficient 
interest on Glisten in that particular issue will it be listed for trading 
there.  Whoever runs the exchange on Glisten will probably have regulations 
about how many shares must be registered to owners in system, how many 
shares must trade in any given day, etc.  If an issue doesn't live up to 
those minimum standards, the exchange's owners or regulators will delist it 
and you'll have to find somebody else to buy from you or sell to you.

And the person who just arrived a day ahead of schedule from Regina can 
make a killing on Glisten in Regina FunCorp speculation.  If RFC is listed, 
and if there are enough people willing to buy from him during that given 
day, and if he has the funds or credit to do what he is trying to do.

Bear in mind that if someone just arrived in system and they suddenly go as 
wild as they can buying or selling a particular stock, then that by itself 
will affect the stock.  Any time a seller drives up trading volume in one 
issue by 50% above normal, that's going to make a big difference.

In other words, if Bill Gates decided to actually start selling all his 
Microsoft shares one day, he'd drive Microsoft's price down into the 
gutter.  Even if nobody knew all those shares suddenly on the market 
belonged to an insider, it would just be a huge supply and demand 
imbalance.  And Gates would discover that people who reckon his net worth 
on paper are living in a very theoretical world.  He'd still be rich as the 
devil, but not nearly as rich people say he is.  Because people do say he 
is richer than the devil, you know.

Keeping all the above in mind, and keeping in mind that many exchanges on 
different planets will have reciprocal arrangements to ensure they're 
regulated virtually identically but many other exchanges will fly by night 
if they feel like it, there will be plenty of incentive for someone who 
trades in shares on an interstellar basis to get their news sooner than 
everyone else.  So there will be classes of people continually jumping 
ships between financial centers in hopes of getting to the destination a 
few hours before everyone else and keeping key information to 
themselves.  The really big brokerage firms will probably maintain their 
own fleets that do nothing but jump and then beam info by laser at the 
destination system while collecting beamed info from that system then 
jumping back.  Or they will pay an outside contractor to do that.  Or they 
will make it very well known to navigators and captains everywhere that 
they pay a bounty for such information.  There may even be cowboy operators 
who speculatively jump back and forth trying to be that first person to 
arrive with the news.  And a good navigator should command very rewarding 
compensation if he hires on with people like this.

Done babbling now.  Comments?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:38:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:38:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FE@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404040632.00aba320@pop.wizard.net>

>Kindest Sophont Laning,
>Regarding your RFP for a "modest", helicopter (how quaint!) equipped 
>motoryacht,
>are you looking for something in an expedition style yacht
>[http://www.yachtworld.com/expeditionyachts/expeditionyachts_3.html], 
>something
>classical [http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/], or something a little more
>aggressive looking? [http://www.newzealandyachts.com/].
>
>Best Regards,
>David Phoenecius
>Blackmoore Heavy Industries

Dear Sophont Phoenecius,

In regards your kind inquiry via recent Xmessage, please accept my grateful 
thanks for your interest.  After perusing the three styles you've 
indicated, the one that seems most attractive was that quaint and slightly 
aging, but gracefully appointed and impeccably maintained Britannia 
item.  It will need some refitting for the helipad and hangar, but I'm sure 
your reknowned naval architects will be able to devise something that 
remains true to the elegant yet relaxed Old World ambience one has such a 
difficult time finding these days.

Although it's former notoriety as a "ship of state" for some monarch on the 
Solomani Rim may lend it an air of gaucheness in some sophont's eyes, I 
prefer seeing it as imbuing this storied floating getaway with character 
and history, however local in nature.

In closing, please have your sophonts contact my sophonts and instruct them 
on the administrative details necessary to transfer funds via xboat.  My 
seneschal will pass on to me any recommendations you make regarding place 
and date of delivery, and I will consider them in the most favorable light 
as I've the utmost of trust in your judgment.

Long live Emperor Strephon,

Laning, His Grace, Duke of So Many Places He Doesn't Bother To Count Them 
Anymore


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:39:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:39:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404041749.00ab8ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn pointed out:
>Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?
>
>http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html
>
>Now that's what I am talking about.
>--


Oh my.  Speaking of Captain Nemo.  And what would Freud say?  I think 
that's actually relevant in this instance, because if anyone goes that far 
out of their way to have this thing, then it isn't "just a cigar".

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <20020403.170340.-179719.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404042049.00abc060@pop.wizard.net>

>
>Why not just take Catalina Island off the Southern California's Long
>Beach coast.

The thought has crossed my mind.  And Dashiell Hammett set one of his more 
daring, but lesser, stories there before the War.  Which has been copied in 
various films at least every ten years since then.  It makes for an 
interesting Traveller scenario, no matter which exact setting you translate 
it to.

The basic idea is robbers with grandiose visions take over at gunpoint the 
entire play resort of high rollers and the rich for one night, stripping 
everyone there of anything valuable, then escape into the night by 
boat.  They're tough, combat veterans, equipped with Thompson submachine 
guns and grenades as part of their arsenal.  I think.  Haven't read the 
story for at least twenty years.  At the time of the story, Catalina was 
home to one of the most heavily trafficked casinos that Americans frequented.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:40:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:40:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani Rim data errors?
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020403080940.027e7b68@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000201c1dbc2$54800920$fc00a8c0@imogen>

I've noticed some apparent anomalies in the  electronic  versions
of  the  Solomani  Rim.   These  anomalies  seem  to  have   been
replicated across multiple formats:

- Doug's World website (data.xls)
- Heaven&Earth (Solomani_Rim.HES)
- TR Tools (solomani.uwp)
- World Builders Deluxe (Solomani_Rim.WBS)
- ? (solomani.sdf)

... possibly others.

These anomalies are:
- 0606 Ishadar ... has a "KO" (kay-oh) star, this should be "K0" (kay-zero)
- 1901 Eshellim ... has a "VII" size star, this should be "D"
- 2205 Ikaakur ... has a "K3 IV" star, this should be "K0 IV"
- 2222 Ninkhur Sagga ... lacks any stellar data, and also lacks PBG codes

Any comments, disagreements, or the missing data for Ninkhur Sagga?

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:41:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:41:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
In-Reply-To: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404042713.00abaec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 10:38 PM 4/3/02 -0500, Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered
>seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat
>that had not a conventional sail, but basically an
>airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing
>around trying to find information and pictures about
>this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more
>info about this boat or have any links?
>
>Jesse

No.  But there is Cousteau's experimental "sail" boat.  Sort of a high-tech 
windmill that looks like a cross between a barber's pole, a maypole, a 
mast, and a sail.  I believe it drives a motor that drives a propulsion 
system.  Or is the motor.  I never have found out.  It should be easy to 
track down with Google.

Also, it makes a suitably outre and science-fictiony gizmo to place on some 
world's oceans so the your travellers get that sense of the new and alien, 
and living in the future.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:42:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:42:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Biochemistry (was : How common is advanced life?)
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOIEBACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Jens Rydholm wrote :-
> I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might
> look under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary
> after a while.
"Advanced" = multicellular, right?

> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life
> might function using radically different biochemistries?
Some of Ike Asimov's stuff can be summarised like this :-

Mean Envt.
Temperature   Biomolecules               Solvent
>150 C        Fluorinated silicones      Molten sulphur
-20 to 150 C  The stuff we're made of    Water
<-259C        Substituted lipids         Liquid hydrogen

As for what critters look like, that's a complex function of niche,
environment, and random selective factors (e.g. mass extinctions).

There was a Xenobiology overview I posted to the TML a long time ago
which addressed some of these issues.

What particular points would you like amplified or discussed?


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:43:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:43:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <20020404095814.B46FA27A5B@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204041254070.2194-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Charles (CHam628781@aol.com) writes:
>webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>>>_H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
>>>mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
>>>reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
>>>but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
>>>
>>>[*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.
>>
>>Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are
>>interfertile.

I didn't say they were. I said that the Zhodani _claims_ that they are.
Erroneously, as it happens, but when have facts ever interfered with
political theories?

>Depends on what you mean by "interfertile" some species (including ones with
>differing numbers of chromosomes) can interbreed but not produce fertile
>young.

Interfertile for the purpose of establishing that two population groups
belong to the same species means 'capable of producing fertile offspring'.
(At least when you're talking about mammals).

>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk
>writes:
>
>>>Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
>>>ridiculous as well.
>>
>>No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H.
>>erectus_
>>and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
>>actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
>>it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
>>showing up as early as that.
>
>H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say
>I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H.
>sapiens back that far.

The book I got my information from was written in 1997, so I think it
qualifies for the term 'modern'. It's been returned to the library, so I
can't provide the name, but a web search of the tern 'archaic Homo
sapiens' provided me with 12 links, the first three of which either put
archaic Homo sapiens that far back or left the qustion open (I didn't
check the rest).

http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/ANTD15/Bill/multi-media.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#moderns

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html#C


>>But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
>>tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In
>>the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place
>>_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.
>
>True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are
>descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even
>more arrogant than they already are.

Whether it would be more interesting is debatable. And such a debate would
be moot, because that's not the way it is. Both Vilani and zhodani are
expressly said to be members of _H. sapiens_.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:43:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Oops
Message-ID: <PGNMAANMJKDGGCAA@angelfire.com>

Dear all,I was wondering if you could help me.

I'm going away for the weekend and don't want to crash my mail server. How do I go about suspending the list while I'm away?

Cheers
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem




Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:44:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:44:41 2002
Subject: [TML] (long) Re: inheritance Imperial style
References: <20020403181406.EE90627A4D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c1dbe6$52c83ca0$025d8690@computer>

> From: laning
> IIRC, the Albigensian Crusade was the first Crusade.

Bzzt.  Thank you for playing.  The first crusade ended in 1099.  I've
grabbed a couple of entries on the Albigensian Crusade from one of my handy
encyclopedia CDs.

OBTRAVs should be obvious enough.

Excerpts from The Oxford Interactive Encyclopedia:
Albigensians, followers of a form of the Cathar heresy; they took their name
from the town of Albi in Languedoc in southern France. There and in northern
Italy the sect acquired immense popularity. The movement was condemned at
the Council of Toulouse in 1119 and by the Third and Fourth Lateran councils
in 1179 and 1215, which opposed it not only as heretical but because it
threatened the family and the state. St Bernard and St Dominic were its
vigorous opponents. Between 1209 and 1228 the wars known as the Albigensian
Crusade were mounted, led principally by Simon de Montfort. By 1229 the
heretics were largely crushed and the Treaty of Meaux delivered most of
their territory to France.

Cathar (Greek katharos, 'pure'), a member of a medieval sect seeking to
achieve a life of great purity. Cathars believed in a 'dualist' heresy.
Their basic belief was that if God, being wholly good, had alone created the
world it would have been impossible for evil to exist within it, and that
another, diabolical, creative force must have taken part. They held that the
material world and all within it were irredeemably evil. The human body and
its appetites were despised. Marriage was rejected and suicide by starvation
was admired. A pure life was impossible to all but a very few called the
'perfect', and the rest--known simply as 'believers'--could live as they
wished. Salvation was assured if they took a form of confirmation known as
the 'consolamentum' before death. This ceremony was to be delayed as long as
possible to reduce the chance of the recipient's sinning further before he
or she died. The heresy originated in Bulgaria and appeared in western
Europe in the 1140s. In southern France this Christian heresy was called
Albigensianism.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:45:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:45:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
References: <20020403200103.CA19127A56@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c1dbe6$5218c2c0$025d8690@computer>

> From: "Rachel Kronick"
> I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists
> Table (UTT),

Hmm.  We'd probably want a bit of a framework to hang the Twists together.
It wouldn't have to be too complex - an introduction, set of "acts", climax
and conclusion structure would probably work.

Using stuff other people develop to provide surprise is a good idea too.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B8D1A48C.37332%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
Message-ID: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning expounds majestically on the value of information
<snip>

It almost sounds like there's the Imperial X-Boat, but a 
brokerage might run an x-boat to and from each system several 
times a day with the news and trading information. It still 
takes a week to get information, but it would be hard 
to "beat the boat".

It would make things more interesting if you had things 
arranged so that jumps took a week + or - some hours. Let's 
say that the modifier, as you suggested, would be the 
navigator's skill.  Therefore, we roll 2D6, - Nav.  If you 
roll a 7, that's exactly on time.  But if you roll higher, 
you are an hour late for each number higher.  And you are one 
hour earlier for each number lower.

Makes me think that a lot of navigators will get their 
training doing Imperial x-boat, and then change career to fly 
for a private broker or a merchant line that contracts to 
brokers.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Oops
In-Reply-To: <PGNMAANMJKDGGCAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <B8D1A906.37346%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 11:34 AM, Andrew Whincup at shanhat@angelfire.com wrote:

> Dear all,I was wondering if you could help me.
> 
> I'm going away for the weekend and don't want to crash my mail server. How do
> I go about suspending the list while I'm away?
> 

go to http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Log in and set "Disable Mail Delivery" to yes
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 07:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 07:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

My wife caught me working on the standard operating 
procedures/tips manual, and she asked what it was for. She's 
a technical writer, so she's attracted to large documents.

I told her that it was tips, and in large part, a standard 
operating procedure manual for Traveller parties.

She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000 
Certified?"
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 07:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu Apr  4 07:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404042049.00abc060@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020404152552.33017.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com>

--- laning <laning@wizard.net> wrote:
> 
> >
> >Why not just take Catalina Island off the Southern
> California's Long
> >Beach coast.
> 
> The thought has crossed my mind.  And Dashiell
> Hammett set one of his more 
> daring, but lesser, stories there before the War. 
> Which has been copied in 
> various films at least every ten years since then. 
> It makes for an 
> interesting Traveller scenario, no matter which
> exact setting you translate 
> it to.
> 
> The basic idea is robbers with grandiose visions
> take over at gunpoint the 
> entire play resort of high rollers and the rich for
> one night, stripping 
> everyone there of anything valuable, then escape
> into the night by 
> boat.  They're tough, combat veterans, equipped with
> Thompson submachine 
> guns and grenades as part of their arsenal.  I
> think.  Haven't read the 
> story for at least twenty years.  At the time of the
> story, Catalina was 
> home to one of the most heavily trafficked casinos
> that Americans frequented.
> 
> --Laning
> 
  >>
  AHA! So THAT's where Able Team #2(or was it 3?) came
from! I knew that wasn't an original idea......

 MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 07:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 07:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>

At 10:15 AM 4/4/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>My wife caught me working on the standard operating
>procedures/tips manual, and she asked what it was for. She's
>a technical writer, so she's attracted to large documents.
>I told her that it was tips, and in large part, a standard
>operating procedure manual for Traveller parties.
>She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
>Certified?"

I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor training.

Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.

"You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections & standards"

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence.  Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:13:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:13:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Hidden decks  was RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3604@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Paul Walker wrote:
Hey!  I used to work for Trinity before they spun away
from Halter Marine.
<snip cool story>

LOL!  That's pretty funny :)

I'll let the gearheads figure out what size densitometer would be needed to find something like that, and at what range they'd be able to do it from.  From a conceptual design standpoint, if you're trying to fool an on-board customs inspection team that doesn't have densitometers, I'd think about using a deck layout like the AHL.  Have one (or more) of the marked fuel decks be the hidden deck(s), with either no access from the lifts or surreptitious access.  Use a keycard in a reader hidden in the wall panel seams near your right toe or somesuch.

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
References: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c1dbf2$1d1b9500$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: economic crash


> laning expounds majestically on the value of information
> <snip>
>
> It almost sounds like there's the Imperial X-Boat, but a
> brokerage might run an x-boat to and from each system several
> times a day with the news and trading information. It still
> takes a week to get information, but it would be hard
> to "beat the boat".
>
> It would make things more interesting if you had things
> arranged so that jumps took a week + or - some hours. Let's
> say that the modifier, as you suggested, would be the
> navigator's skill.  Therefore, we roll 2D6, - Nav.  If you
> roll a 7, that's exactly on time.  But if you roll higher,
> you are an hour late for each number higher.  And you are one
> hour earlier for each number lower.
>
> Makes me think that a lot of navigators will get their
> training doing Imperial x-boat, and then change career to fly
> for a private broker or a merchant line that contracts to
> brokers.

This would work well IMTU.

IMTU if two ships were within a few hundred km of each other, and both
Jumped at the same time with their exit point again being within a few
hundred km of each other, you would roll the dice for the Jump duration once
and apply the result to both ships. They would emerge from jump at almost
exactly the same time. The variance would be on the order of a few seconds
to a couple of minutes at most.

If they were both to immediately return to their starting points, you would
again make a single jump duration roll and apply it to both ships. Note that
the first jump might take 6.5 days the second might be 7.5. This is due to
the changes in Jumpspace due to the movement of large gravity wells in real
space. At the commencement of Jump the crew know exactly how long *that
particular jump* will take, and this same time will be taken by any other
vessels in the neighbourhood jumping to the same destination for the next
few hours or so. The next time that particular route is taken the roll will
give a different result as conditions have changed.

Now, using your proposed navigation roll, the Navigator becomes more
important, as he strives to shave a few hours off the duration by optimising
the route, skirting closer to intervening gravity wells. A cautious
navigator will add a few hours on as he gives potential hazards a wider
berth...

Perhaps the navigator could state the numbers of hours they wanted to
shorten or extend the jump by as a DM. on 2D 8+ to avoid potential misjump:
DM + 2*Navigator Skill, + Hours of extra Jump duration, - Hours of reduced
Jump Duration

So a Navigator with Skill 2 could add 2 Hours to the Rolled Jump duration
and be safe. A real Hotshot with  Nav-4 could trim 2 Hours of the jump time
and still be safe etc

The effect of a failed roll would be to roll on the misjump table with the
difference between the modified Nav roll and 8 as the DM on the misjump
table.

Another way to increase the utility of the Navigator is to let them
calculate the Jump duration given jumping now, in six hours, 12 hours etc.
Basically, let the navigator roll the duration in advance a number of times
equal to their Nav Skill. Each successive roll equates to the calculated
Jump duration from Here to There given Jumping Now, and successive six hour*
intervals later. It may well result that the fastest route through Jumpspace
occurs in 12 Hours time, and will get you there with 24 hours shorter jump
duration than those rolled for Now, Six hours, Eighteen hours etc. The
prudent Merchant would therefore wait 12 hours before Jumping, as he will
thus arrive in the destination system at least 12 hours earlier than jumping
now. The party in a hurry to get the Hell out of Dodge might prefer to Jump
now, despite a longer Jump duration, as incoming missiles make doing so
prudent...

To sum this up:

Skill       Advance Rolls
0            0. Only rolls upon Jump initiation to see how long this Jump is

1            1 Can see how long a Jump initiated now will take BEFORE
initiating Jump. May Wait Six hours* and                     try again for a
better result
2            2 Can see Jump duration if jump initiated Now and if initiated
in 6 hours* time.

3            3 As 2, but can see Now, 6 Hours*, and 12 Hour* durations

4            4 Now, 6*, 12*, 18*

etc

*Obviously, you can tweak the 6 hour thing to suit your own style... 4
hourly intervals may be just as good (or even better) gaming wise...

So a skilled Navigator can not only forecast better jump windows, they can
the try to shave time off those as well... "Beating the Boat" becomes a lot
more interesting =)

(Also, this 'a given jump takes a given duration if performed at a given
time' situation allows for Fleets to arrive as a coordinated unit, rather
than as a rag-tag of ships scattered over 2 days. Should cheer up the
military planners out there <g>)

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:15:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:15:54 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404082015.00ac34e0@mail.verizon.net>

Hi John,

Just remember, ISO-9000 is about demonstrating that you have a documented 
process, not that you follow it!  ;-)

Best regards,

Charles

At 10:15 AM 4/4/02 -0500, you wrote:
>My wife caught me working on the standard operating
>procedures/tips manual, and she asked what it was for. She's
>a technical writer, so she's attracted to large documents.
>
>I told her that it was tips, and in large part, a standard
>operating procedure manual for Traveller parties.
>
>She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
>Certified?"
>________________
>Do you think my being stronger and
>faster has anything to do with my
>muscles in this place?...Do you think
>that's air that you are breathing?
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:16:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:16:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Solomani Rim data errors?
Message-ID: <000201c1dbff$e448bc40$fc00a8c0@imogen>

Oops, just rechecked LBB 6 (Scouts) and I now think 2205 (Ikaakur)
should be "K3 V".

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:17:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:17:23 2002
Subject: [TML] More data errors?
Message-ID: <000301c1dbff$e508ff00$fc00a8c0@imogen>

I've now checked Alpha Crucis and Antares.  It appears  that  the
rule that K5-M9 is not available for size IV stars and  B0-F4  is
not available for size size VI stars (and in  both  cases  change
the size to V) has not been applied.  I suspect I'm going to find
this in most sectors.  Has anyone noticed this before?

Regards PLST



ALPHA CRUCIS SECTOR
===================
A0204 "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
A0806 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
B0309 "K4 IV" should be "K4 V"
B0606 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
D0310 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
E0103 "K3 IV" should be "K3 V"
E0207 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
E0408 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
E0602 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
E0704 "M5 IV" should be "M5 V"
F0307 "M2 IV" should be "M2 V"
F0402 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
F0506 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
F0510 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
F0710 "K6 IV" should be "K6 V"
G0108 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V" ... then swap the primary and companion
G0801 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
G0807 "M2 IV" should be "M2 V"
H0506 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
H0609 "K5 IV" should be "K5 V"
H0702 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
I0103 "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
J0203 "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
J0209 "K6 IV" should be "K6 V"
J0607 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
J0710 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
L0709 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
L0805 "M2 IV" should be "M2 V"
M0310 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
N0405 "K9 IV" should be "K9 V"
N0501 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
N0504 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
N0509 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
N0810 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
O0102 "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
O0703 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
O0709 "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
O0805 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"



ANTARES SECTOR
==============
A0507: "F3 VI" should be "F3 V"
A0602: "M9 IV" should be "M9 V"
A0801: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
B0708: "K5 IV" should be "K5 V"
C0204: "F0 VI" should be "F0 V"
C0401: "F1 VI" should be "F1 V"
C0801: "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
E0102: "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
E0105: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
F0302: "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
F0508: "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
F0610: "K9 IV" should be "K9 V"
G0108: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
G0803: "K1 IV" should be "K1 V"
I0105: "K6 IV" should be "K6 V"
J0305: "F4 VI" should be "F4 V"
J0605: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
J0608: "F0 VI" should be "F0 V"
L0108: "K2 IV" should be "K2 V"
M0207: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
M0402: "K2 IV" should be "K2 V"
M0706: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
M0707: "F0 VI" should be "F0 V"
N0306: "F1 VI" should be "F1 V"
O0107: "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
O0302: "F4 VI" should be "F4 V"
O0503: "F4 VI" should be "F4 V"
P0107: "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
P0205: "F3 VI" should be "F3 V"
P0502: "F1 VI" should be "F1 V"

(done)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
References: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1dbff$e6158d00$fc00a8c0@imogen>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
> stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
> get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
> to try and offset this sort of risk?

There are ways to avoid this.

First, rather than invest directly in one or other stock  instead
invest in a unit trust.  These are funds made up of a  basket  of
stocks, so if one collapsed suddenly your losses are cushioned by
the others in the fund.  A fund manger "on-site" then  trades  in
and out of any stocks on that exchange  based  on  circumstances.
His goal is to maximise the fund's performance ... which in  turn
attracts more investors.  Unless the fund manager is  incompetant
you shouldn't loose unless the whole exchange is in decline.

Second, you let your broker buy and sell on your behalf: you  can
give him instructions ranging from a  few  sentences  to  several
pages ... this is called a client  mandate  (where  you  are  the
client).  For example: a simple mandate might say "sell any stock
whose price drops below  the  purchase  price  and  reinvest  any
monies  (including  dividend  payments)   in   manufacturers   of
environmentally friendly products".

Check out StuffOnline ...
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol  and  in  the  Traveller
section you'll find a link called "Financial Markets".



> Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?

This is unlikely to happen for two reasons:

(1)  Financial markets are heavily regulated to prevent  fleecing
     ... it can still happen but those who try often face lengthy
     prison terms.

(2)  Brokers and other financial institutions  live  and  die  on
     reputation.  The last thing they  want  is  for  someone  to
     claim they did not  act  in  the  best  interests  of  their
     clients.  (Contrary to popular  belief  the  slogan  of  the
     London financial community is *not* "who dares wins", it  is
     "my word is my bond".)

A bank's  Compliance  Department  doesn't  just  investigate  any
anomalies reported, it will be pro-active and involve itself with
day-to-day business (like a QA department).



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:18:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:18:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Tugs, etc
Message-ID: <200204041934.DIV01979@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I haven't seen many designs for a "tug", a useful vessel for 
attaching to and moving other larger vessels.  Might also be 
useful for moving large asteroids that come in from the outer 
system and pose a hazard to navigation (or even to a planet).

Was just reading
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-space-
menace0404apr04.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnationworld%2Dheadlines

and had a mental picture of some bored tug crew getting 
orders to move out and push this piece of rock into the sun.

"What are you so excited about?  It's just another asteroid."
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:19:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:19:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <F115a0x5eceUXj0sZb00001399a@hotmail.com>

Texas Redshift <texasredshift@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > If the 'Alien' from the movie boarded my ship, <snip> Subsequent
> > events to be determined by the referee.  :->
>
>I liked the movie, but I always thought the crewmembers of the Nostromo had 
>way too much trouble getting their act together.

They had a lot of factors working against them.  Nothing
inside the ship was any kind of secureable except the computer
room, since no one was supposed to be aboard except
triple-cleared company employees.  They had a traitor in their
midst, and a secret agenda going on from their corporate masters.
A small group of wage-slave technicians running a cargo ship
were way out of their league, and had an appropriate casualty
rate.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:20:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:20:20 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <005e01c1dc0d$850509b0$c8d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

 "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
> >Certified?"
> 
> I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor training.
> 
> Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.
> 
> "You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections & standards"
>

Argh. Day job intrudes even here!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:21:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:21:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani Rim data errors?
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020403080940.027e7b68@192.168.0.1> <000201c1dbc2$54800920$fc00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <DAV457emxUgjtwxoJ9Y000140e6@hotmail.com>

Per Supplement 10 The Solomani Rim

Ninkhur Sagga    Sol 0602    BAA7769 D   Military Rule  G

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com

> - 2222 Ninkhur Sagga ... lacks any stellar data, and also lacks PBG codes
> 
> Any comments, disagreements, or the missing data for Ninkhur Sagga?
> 
> Regards PLST
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <005e01c1dc0d$850509b0$c8d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404162723.00a8aea0@urbin.net>

At 08:15 PM 4/4/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>  "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
> > >Certified?"
> > I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> > I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor training.
> > Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.
> > "You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections & standards"
>
>Argh. Day job intrudes even here!

Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.


----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"It is both foolish and wicked to teach the average man who is
not well off that some wrong or injustice has been done him,
and that he should hope for redress elsewhere than in his own
industry, honesty, and intelligence." -- Theodore Roosevelt,
"Review of Reviews", January 1897
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tugs, etc
Message-ID: <20020404.134744.-5683.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

John

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:34:11 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> I haven't seen many designs for a "tug", a useful vessel for 
> attaching to and moving other larger vessels.  Might also be 
> useful for moving large asteroids that come in from the outer 
> system and pose a hazard to navigation (or even to a planet).

I've adopted a couple of tugs from my Starwars flight sim games XWing and
Tie Fighter. None were used to tow large ships though. Their role was
transporting of various cargo containers, and crew. I designed both the
tugs and cargo containers with MT for MTU.  I also designed jump cargo
transports as well.

You're welcome to ask for them, and even correct flaws in my designing.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


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http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:02:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:02:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <200204041157.DIF02066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>

JTK quoted Laning and wrote:
> >Oh, if I do go Marine, how do you feel about my house rule
> >of substituting battle ax skill for cutlass skill as the
> >default Marine 'blade' weapon?
>
>I don't think that the battle axe is something that is
>readily laying around.  I have a hard enough time with the
>default "blade" being anything except bayonet, but that's me.
I'm copying this to the TML, because I think a lot of folks there might 
enjoy it.  :->

Classic Traveller says the default blade skill that Marines cascade to is 
Bayonet.  For reasons of tradition, esprit de corps, inspiring confidence 
in troops, and instilling the proper spirit of attack.  Same reasons that 
Marc Miller had to suffer through bayonet drills when he was in the Army 
even though the widespread opinion of the day was that bayonet training is 
obsolete.  In other words, I think the Traveller ruling is largely a 
product of the times during which it was written.

I like to think that the introduction of practical battle armor would 
change this equation, and it would make a very big impact on fighting in 
boarding actions.  Combat ranges will often be melee distance.  Opponents 
will all be wearing at least vacc suit for armor.  The Imperial Marines 
would have adjusted to this tactical requirement centuries ago, and a 
one-handed battle axe intended to puncture armor would be the default melee 
weapon.  For Marines.  Even if there is widespread opinion that boarding 
actions are rare.  For reasons of tradition, esprit de corps, inspiring 
confidence in troops, and instilling the proper spirit of attack, Imperial 
Marines take the practice very seriously.

Battle axes would be in abundant supply around Navy and Marine 
armories.  And, as you say, not exactly readily laying around anywhere 
else.  Except maybe in 'army surplus shops', a place where people usually 
like to buy militaria.  Also, every Marine recruiting office will have one 
proudly displayed on a wall plaque behind the OIC's or NCOIC's desk, 
crossed with a gauss rifle.  Both weapons very firmly attached to said 
plaque by lots of wiring.  The axe has probably never been sharpened.

There's also the apocryphal, but widely believed, tale of a legendary 
Imperial Marine.  During the Fourth Frontier War, Sergeant Alvin Horatio 
singlehandedly defended the hatchway leading onto his ship's bridge with 
nothing but battle dress and his battle axe for over three hours against 
literally hundreds of Sword Worlders who had boarded the ship.  Meanwhile, 
surviving bridge crew were working in their vacc suits behind him to repair 
control consoles and access antiboarding software routines.  They 
succeeded, and triggered the 'grav ping-pong' routine for the corridor 
outside their bridge.  Tellers of the tale differ over whether Sergeant 
Horatio survived or whether the grav ping-pong killed him along with the 
remainder of his foe.  All versions of the tale agree that he had slain 72 
of the enemy with his battle axe when the battle ended.  The enemy had to 
keep pulling back their corpses just to get enough room to attack him.  It 
is said that Sergeant Horatio originally came from a low tech level, low 
law level planet and grew up in a lumberjacking area.  'Horatio at the 
bridge' is a piece of lore that every Marine has embedded in them.

IMTU, the Imperial Marines replace crossed rifles with a 
rifle-crossed-with-battle-axe on their uniform and unit insignia.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017958207.9067.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> 
> I like to think that the introduction of practical battle armor would 
> change this equation, and it would make a very big impact on fighting in 
> boarding actions.  Combat ranges will often be melee distance.  Opponents 
> will all be wearing at least vacc suit for armor.  The Imperial Marines 
> would have adjusted to this tactical requirement centuries ago, and a 
> one-handed battle axe intended to puncture armor would be the default melee
>  weapon. 

There's one very important reason for the bayonet: it lets you have a melee
weapon while carrying a real weapon (a firearm) as well.  A battleaxe doesn't
do this.

A battleaxe, even with the strength of powered armor behind it, shouldn't have
much of a chance of penetrating any significant level of armor.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
Message-ID: <92.23b50a36.29de2962@aol.com>

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>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk
>writes:
>
>>>Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
>>>ridiculous as well.
>>
>>No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H.
>>erectus_
>>and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
>>actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
>>it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
>>showing up as early as that.
>
>H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say
>I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H.
>sapiens back that far.

The book I got my information from was written in 1997, so I think it
qualifies for the term 'modern'. It's been returned to the library, so I
can't provide the name, but a web search of the tern 'archaic Homo
sapiens' provided me with 12 links, the first three of which either put
archaic Homo sapiens that far back or left the qustion open (I didn't
check the rest).

http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/ANTD15/Bill/multi-media.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#moderns

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html#C

Archaic H. sapiens is an interchangeable term for H. heidelbergensis. There 
are clear morphological differences between H. heidelbergensis and H. sapiens 
(and possibly behavioural differences) but the term archaic H. sapiens has 
not yet died out. You sometimes also see H. heidelbergensis called H. sapiens 
heidelbergensis and modern humans called H. sapiens sapiens.

Paleoanthropologists like a good fight about a name - see the current debate 
about H. ergaster / H. erectus for an example.

> 
> 
> >>But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
> >>tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. 
> In
> >>the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't 
> place
> >>_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.
> >
> >True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are
> >descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be 
> even
> >more arrogant than they already are.
> 
> Whether it would be more interesting is debatable. And such a debate would
> be moot, because that's not the way it is. Both Vilani and zhodani are
> expressly said to be members of _H. sapiens_.
> 
> 
> 
> Hans
> 

And Hivers are said not to use sound in their communication which is 
err...unlikely. Still as you say it's moot because it was written that way.


Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2><BR>
&gt;In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk<BR>
&gt;writes:<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;ridiculous as well.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H.<BR>
&gt;&gt;erectus_<BR>
&gt;&gt;and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That<BR>
&gt;&gt;actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing<BR>
&gt;&gt;it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_<BR>
&gt;&gt;showing up as early as that.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say<BR>
&gt;I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H.<BR>
&gt;sapiens back that far.<BR>
<BR>
The book I got my information from was written in 1997, so I think it<BR>
qualifies for the term 'modern'. It's been returned to the library, so I<BR>
can't provide the name, but a web search of the tern 'archaic Homo<BR>
sapiens' provided me with 12 links, the first three of which either put<BR>
archaic Homo sapiens that far back or left the qustion open (I didn't<BR>
check the rest).<BR>
<BR>
http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/ANTD15/Bill/multi-media.html<BR>
<BR>
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#moderns<BR>
<BR>
http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html#C</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Archaic H. sapiens is an interchangeable term for H. heidelbergensis. There are clear morphological differences between H. heidelbergensis and H. sapiens (and possibly behavioural differences) but the term archaic H. sapiens has not yet died out. You sometimes also see H. heidelbergensis called H. sapiens heidelbergensis and modern humans called H. sapiens sapiens.<BR>
<BR>
Paleoanthropologists like a good fight about a name - see the current debate about H. ergaster / H. erectus for an example.<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt;But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up<BR>
&gt;&gt;tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In<BR>
&gt;&gt;the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place<BR>
&gt;&gt;_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are<BR>
&gt;descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even<BR>
&gt;more arrogant than they already are.<BR>
<BR>
Whether it would be more interesting is debatable. And such a debate would<BR>
be moot, because that's not the way it is. Both Vilani and zhodani are<BR>
expressly said to be members of _H. sapiens_.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hans<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
And Hivers are said not to use sound in their communication which is err...unlikely. Still as you say it's moot because it was written that way.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404082015.00ac34e0@mail.verizon.net>
Greetings dear hearts.

ISO9000 can be described thus: -

1. Thou shalt have procedures.

2. Thou shalt follow thy procedures.

3. Thou shalt document that thou hast followed thy procedures.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (long) Re: inheritance Imperial style
In-Reply-To: <006b01c1dbe6$52c83ca0$025d8690@computer>
References: <20020403181406.EE90627A4D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404173305.02b226d0@pop.wizard.net>

Alan Bradley wrote:
> > From: laning
> > IIRC, the Albigensian Crusade was the first Crusade.
>
>Bzzt.  Thank you for playing.  The first crusade ended in 1099.  I've
>grabbed a couple of entries on the Albigensian Crusade from one of my handy
>encyclopedia CDs.
I stand corrected.  Thank you for so kindly pointing that out.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174015.02af68b0@pop.wizard.net>

>She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
>Certified?"

Oh god.  Please.  Never.  What a racket.

BTW, my wife is also a technical writer.  Small world.  :->

I'm afraid to open up the 50-page document you sent because it may put me 
hopeless behind on keeping up with the TML and two PBEM games.  But I 
promise to work on it soon.  The real problem is I will probably want to do 
far more than a trivial amount of work on it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:42:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:42:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <memo.258283@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
Question for JTK - is it too late to join in?

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:51:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:51:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017958207.9067.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174808.00a7d008@urbin.net>

At 02:10 PM 4/4/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>laning writes:
> > I like to think that the introduction of practical battle armor would
> > change this equation, and it would make a very big impact on fighting in
> > boarding actions.  Combat ranges will often be melee distance.  Opponents
> > will all be wearing at least vacc suit for armor.  The Imperial Marines
> > would have adjusted to this tactical requirement centuries ago, and a
> > one-handed battle axe intended to puncture armor would be the default melee
> >  weapon.
>There's one very important reason for the bayonet: it lets you have a melee
>weapon while carrying a real weapon (a firearm) as well.  A battleaxe doesn't
>do this.

The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF 
since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.


>A battleaxe, even with the strength of powered armor behind it, shouldn't have
>much of a chance of penetrating any significant level of armor.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:57:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:57:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174808.00a7d008@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:
> 
> The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF 
> since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.

Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a reference _since_ Lensman, though there
certainly was one in Lensman.  In any case, it hasn't been a 'staple' exactly.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:59:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (nellkyn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:59:15 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <001001c1dc2b$d13fac40$a6ecff3e@k5k9u6>

----- Original Message -----
From: Megan Robertson <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] more on the sop


> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404082015.00ac34e0@mail.verizon.net>
> Greetings dear hearts.
>
> ISO9000 can be described thus: -
>
> 1. Thou shalt have procedures.
>
> 2. Thou shalt follow thy procedures.
>
> 3. Thou shalt document that thou hast followed thy procedures.
>
> Hugs and kisses,
>
> Mexal.

Please stop it and make it go away! I've just suffered a BSI surveillance
visit today. Traveller is where I get away from the real world.

Obtrav
Would there be a standards institute in the 3I?
Would ISO 9000 appeal to the Vilani sense bureaucracy?

I for one, don't bloody care on either count.

Neil

Quality Manager by day.
TML Lurker by night.

>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:07:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:07:24 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <164.b94855a.29de3657@cs.com>

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Mark Urbin writes:


> Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.
> 
> 

Done that.

"My card..."
-------------------------------------

Ambrose Bartholomew Lovejoy
        Accountant-at-War

-------------------------------------

Doug Grimes

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Tahoma" LANG="0">Mark Urbin writes:
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Tahoma" LANG="0">
<BR>Done that.
<BR>
<BR>"My card..."
<BR>-------------------------------------
<BR>
<BR>Ambrose Bartholomew Lovejoy
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Accountant-at-War
<BR>
<BR>-------------------------------------
<BR>
<BR>Doug Grimes</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404162723.00a8aea0@urbin.net>
References: <005e01c1dc0d$850509b0$c8d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174321.02af7ac0@pop.wizard.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
 >>>
Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.
<<<

Hm, it might be fun to turn that into a sort of elite super soldier/private 
cop gig.  Combine war fighting skills with investigative skills, and only 
the best of the best are able to do the job effectively.  They get paid 
ridiculously well to go to war zones and verify that everyone from the 
generals to the supply sergeants to the front-line unit leaders really are 
doing what they report they're doing.  They have to verify not only the 
accuracy of financial reports but also compliance with all the various 
regulations affecting mercenaries, including code of war stuff.

A silly idea, but makes for nice cinematic possibilities.

Oh, speaking of which.  I saw three movies in the last two days that might 
be of interest to RPGers.  'We Were Soldiers', 'Blade 2', and 'Resident 
Evil'.  I was surprised to see that my favorite of the three was 'Resident 
Evil'.  My short reviews follow.

'We Were Soldiers'  I was both disappointed and riveted at the same 
time.  Might provide some useful background and even plot ideas to a 
referee sending military units from a peaceful garrison life to a battle 
zone.  The garrison life it shows is a period and setting I'm very familiar 
with from my own childhood, and in some ways it was very convincing, but 
overall it was definitely the Hollywood version where star power counts for 
more than character development, historical accuracy, or anything 
else.  I'm going to try the book, which I suspect is about 100 times 
better.  Mel Gibson did his best but is about fifteen years too old for his 
part.

'Blade 2'  Even more gorily repulsive than I expected.  It's a shame that 
an impressively talented actor like Wesley Snipes only seems to be able to 
make such things.  And a shame to waste the ever-interesting Kris 
Kristofferson on something so vulgar.  He's a Rhodes scholar, and he's come 
to this?  Gaming referees and players alike may find that most of the plot 
twists can be seen coming from several kilometers away.  They did do a nice 
piece of writing when they rationalized a humans working for a vampire with 
the term 'familiar'.  Which was probably in the first 'Blade' but I forgot 
it.  If you're only there looking for source material, leave after the 
first five minutes that show scary high-tech vampires cum martial artists 
infiltrating the good guys' bat cave.  This included the vampires wearing 
insectoid-looking hoods and goggles.  When they'd speak to each other, I at 
first thought that their hoods/masks were doing encryption of their speech 
so it came out like a hissing sound, and presumably their hoods also 
included earphones with built-in decryption of incoming speech.  They were 
actually speaking in a foreign language, I guess.  But 
encrypting/decrypting speech is a cool idea.  Good guys and bad guys alike 
can say whatever they want to each other right in front of their 
enemies.  Just whisper into their built-in mikes.  I should probably go 
pitch this to law enforcement and the military now and see if I can make 
some money from it.  DARPA probably wants to throw money at me.  Oh, Snipes 
"cleverly" places a tiny explosive device on the back of the head of one of 
the vampires, so that he can ensure the vampire's cooperation.  This may 
have a very small interest as source material for gaming.

'Resident Evil'  Like 'Blade', it's a shame a talented actor like Milla 
Jovovich (and some of the rest of its cast) are only getting work in a 
superficial action adventure flick.  But this one has more creativity in 
its little finger than 'Blade' can ever accumulate even if it goes on for 
another twenty sequels.  If you've played the computer game it sprang from, 
then you probably already know the major plot twists, but I've never played 
it, so they were all new to me and mostly kept me guessing until the end, 
which was itself fairly predictable.  But it wasn't trying to be 
unpredictable, and it was fine.  It comes dangerously close for awhile to 
becoming just another "small band versus undead zombies" horror flick, with 
a few nice science fiction touches, but it rose above that.  Like almost 
all "science" fiction movies and a lot of writing, genetics and mutation 
are laughable.  But in context, the disbelief suspenders weren't stretched 
too far.  'Blade' had the exact same problem, but was a bigger strain on 
the suspenders.  'Resident Evil' could have used more character 
development, too, but it did better than most films of its genre at 
this.  Pacing was quite good, and most FX were competent to really 
interesting.  If this film had come out twenty years ago, it probably would 
have been seminal.  Much like 'Alien' was.  It may yet be influential in 
some ways.  This is the only one I've seen of the recent crop of movies 
developed from games.  I'm not nominating it for any Oscar categories that 
I can think of, but it's definitely worth viewing if you've any interest at 
all in this sort of thing.  And if you're a nonhomosexual male like me, 
there's plenty of eye candy for you.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C360B@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

<snip of Laning's movie reviews>

Regarding Resident Evil, it also had some interesting anti-hijack routines
masked as bio-hazard containment.  Particularly liked the system in the hall
leading to the Red Queen :D

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <B8D22554.3750B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Because I'm too lazy to figure this out myself (yeah, right!)

I am trying to converts old TML archives into a format that the new Mailman
archiver can use.  Here the problem.  When the messages were originally
saved, they were saved as digests with most of the header stripped of each
message.  The current header looks like this:


    Date: [day of week], [day] [month] [year] [time] [offset]
    From: Poster@domain.com <poster@domain.com>
    Subject: Subject

    [body of message]

    whitespace

    next header

I need to read the date and from lines and generate a new line and insert it
as the first line in the header so that the header looks like this:


    From poster@domain.com [day of week] [month] [day] [time] [year]
    Date: [day of week], [day] [month] [year] [time] [offset]
    From: Poster@domain.com <poster@domain.com>
    Subject: Subject

    [body of message]

    whitespace

    next header

if I can get a script to do this , it looks like we can recover all the TML
and Xboat archives back to 1995 and post them to the web.

Thanks, Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22554.3750B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8D22554.3750B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405100301.A22271@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> I need to read the date and from lines and generate a new line and insert it
> as the first line in the header so that the header looks like this:
> 
>     From poster@domain.com [day of week] [month] [day] [time] [year]
>     Date: [day of week], [day] [month] [year] [time] [offset]
>     From: Poster@domain.com <poster@domain.com>
[...]
> if I can get a script to do this , it looks like we can recover all the TML
> and Xboat archives back to 1995 and post them to the web.

What language would you like the script written in?  I should be able
to do it in Perl relatively easily, if that suits.  The only
difficulty might arise if the original headers don't *exactly* conform
to the format described.

If you send me a 100k or so sample of the archives, I will write a
script and test it out on the sample.  That way, I can check whether
any of the original headers deviate by lacking a comma in the date, or
a strangely formatted email address, or something.  I should have
a script that basically works by tomorrow.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204050006.DJD04253@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a 
>staple of SF since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.
>

Maybe I should re-read Triplanetary, and run a campaign with 
the big gun cruisers like the Chicago.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204050009.DJD04543@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

If I could have an example of both files, I'm sure I could 
write something, but it would be a Windows app.

I do this sort of thing all day long, mostly to pile things 
from spreadsheets and word documents into tables in Oracle.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <20020405100301.A22271@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B8D22C91.37518%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 4:03 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> What language would you like the script written in?  I should be able
> to do it in Perl relatively easily, if that suits.  The only
> difficulty might arise if the original headers don't *exactly* conform
> to the format described.
> 
> If you send me a 100k or so sample of the archives, I will write a
> script and test it out on the sample.  That way, I can check whether
> any of the original headers deviate by lacking a comma in the date, or
> a strangely formatted email address, or something.  I should have
> a script that basically works by tomorrow.

SAMPLE FOLLOWS:

####################################
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #999
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
Errors-To: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
Precedence: bulk


Traveller-digest       Monday, August 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 999



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: HEPlar lives!
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
OT but interesting Keith Bro. note
Re: Hudson-class Lander (GTL9)
Re: Low ship weight
Re: Grav deck plates.
Re: Low ship weight (and Grav Plates too)
Starship Combat Tweak
Re: Bureaucrats
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #998
Re: RE Squad Leader LONG
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Grav deck plates.
Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)
Off topic - Insulting Leonard
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)
Re: Slings and Outrageous Fortunes of War
Re: Andre Norton Followups...
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Cloning (was Hard Science)
BITS and delays in response
Re: The Heritage Trilogy
Re Slings

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: HEPlar lives!

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Well, how about "large" deep holes? :-)

As long as by 'large deep holes' you mean 'wider than it is deep' sure.  A
typical free trader would probably make a crater some 20-30m deep and
50-100m across.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:18:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Tom writes:

> > *cough*.  If you really want people toasting small cities with their
> > engines, go for it.  HEPlaR has a power output of roughly 15 megawatts
> > per  newton of thrust -- your average free trader, at something like 20
> > million  newtons thrust, generates the equiva
> > lent of a 50 kiloton nuclear weapon every second...
> 
> Just curious, but isn't this why most downports have landing pads separated
>  from living quarters?  Some of them with high earthwork walls? ...or am I
>  missing the point?

Yah, you're missing the point.  You have the equivalent of a strategic
nuclear weapon going off every time a ship lands or takes off, this will
destroy the landing field in a single landing (in fact, it will also tend to
destroy the ship) and destroy the entire port in short order.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:15:54 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: OT but interesting Keith Bro. note

Just thumbing through Cinescape magazine and noticed an article about a
new Dune novel. It's being written by Brian Herbert (son of Frank) and
Kevin J. Keith. Since this book (actually first of a trilogy) is a
prequel to the classics, it might have some further insight into the
classic Dunes Imperial politics, maybe fodder for 3I politics?
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:23:37 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hudson-class Lander (GTL9)

>> OK, OK, we'll play "Flight of the Valkyries" while we approach, "Will ye
>no
>> come back again" after we land.
>>
>
>Awwww, not "Flight"  It's been done to death, can't we have something
>original?


Isn't that *Ride* of the Valkyries?

Although I seem to remember that the direct translation is "The Valkyries"
so it might well be a cross-pond translation thing.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:29:09 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Low ship weight

>I read somewhere (I think it was an issue of Challenge) that if cargoes of
>greater than standard density (ie 1 ton per cubic meter) were carried, the
>ships performance should be re-calculated if it was likely to take the
ships
>mass over 15 tons per cubic meter.


Yep.

But then, I tend to recalculate the ship's performance every time we change
the cargo load, so I'm more twisted than most players.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:31:39 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Grav deck plates.

>But if you are along a wall (or the floor or ceiling) you'll *also*
>stay right there unless some force moves you.


Under AG you're pushing against the floor with enough force to accelerate
you upward at 1 gee, at least momentarily. Unless you can adjust that force
perfectly to match the decrease in AG (which you probably can't if it's
instantaneous and comes without warning) then you'll push yourself off.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:35:40 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Low ship weight (and Grav Plates too)

>Got me thinking:  Is 20 tonnes per displacement ton the maximum deck
>loading?


Even if it is then it's possible to build a specialised cradle to spread the
weight of particularly heavy cargoes. The maximum deck pressure wouldn't be
much of a problem for properly packaged and loaded freight, but it could be
if the players are trying to recover a relic grav tank or something....


>On a vaguely related thread, suppose you drop a huge cargo container onto
>you deck plate from a height of a few metres.  How much damage would it do?
>Would it screw up the grav plate?  (I ask purely from interest of course,
my
>character would never actually have done such a thing to her ship...)


Well, taking current ships and aircraft as a basis, that's would utterly
knacker your floor, probably requiring expensive repairs and maybe even
making a hole. A couple of metres is a long way to fall under 1g. The grav
plate? Well, I'd say that's pretty much up to the GM.


NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:31:26 -0500
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Starship Combat Tweak

First, I want to thank everyone who answered my Starship Combat
question.  All of you really made me think about the nature of starship
combat at very close ranges.  There were several thoughts that I
probably would not have come up with on my own (in fact, I know I
wouldn't have thought in some directions at all).

Thanks.

You've been a big help to my game.

I LOVE this freaking list.



RANGE MODS:

Anyway, I've simplified the thoughts, and I've come up with a simple
addition to CT starship combat.

I'm just adding two different range modifiers to the to hit throw.
These were derived from your comments and the two range modifiers
already printed in the CT rules.

Range to target 5,000 km or closer?     +2 DM

Range to target 2,000 km or closer?      +5 DM



HEX/RANGE BAND SIZE:

For the close ranges in this boarding scenario, I've changed the
hex/range band size to 1,000 km each.



LENGTH OF ROUND:

To coincide with the internal combat going on inside the ships, I'm
changing the starship combat round for this scenario to a 6 second
round--just like the personal combat round I'm using.

I'll probably run 3-5 rounds inside the ship, then 3-5 rounds outside,
keeping everything constant.



ROF:

Looking at T4's Starships book (imagine that!  I used it!), I see that
most lasers on small scale ships have an ROF of 10 (for the 10 minute T4
combat round).  With extra power, those all can easily be boosted to 100
ROF.

Doing the required math, those weapons will fire exactly once per 6
seconds (with the ROF 100 figure).

That's perfect.  In this very close range scenario I have, these two
ships carving away at each other should turn out to be a meatgrinder of
an encounter.

That's exactly what I want.

Thanks again, to all.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:37:30 -0700
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Bureaucrats

Of course, with your average group of PCs, this will last for about five
minutes before someone decides to show the offending bureacrat his "special
authorization", aka the business end of a firearm...



- --------------
Kelly St.Clair   "At last we will reveal our pants to the Jedi.  At last we
kellys@efn.org    will have revenge."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:40:52 -0700
From: "Mike Linsenmayer" <mlinsenmayer@symantec.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #998

Can someone send me a e-mail if they see this in the post...
Still having problems posting....
mlinsenmayer@symantec.com

I have some new artwork.. not good as Jesses though  ;)

http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace/art/picture-b.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:43:15 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: RE Squad Leader LONG

>>Note that lasers, can paint targets for guided munitions at darn near any
>>range in SL terms. (Unless you've got 16 boards stuck end to end. <grin>)
>
> Thus, if a squad can keep a LOS on a target, that target
> could be hit almost all the time at TL 9 (roll 11- on 2D?).


35 hits out of 36 with laser-guided munitions?

Are you American, by any chance? <g>

NB
- --
(Before y'all flame me - I'm kidding...)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:44:44 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

>> Just curious, but isn't this why most downports have landing pads
separated
>>  from living quarters?  Some of them with high earthwork walls? ...or am
I
>>  missing the point?
>
>Yah, you're missing the point.  You have the equivalent of a strategic
nuclear weapon going off every time a ship lands or takes off, this will
destroy the landing field in a single landing (in fact, it will also tend to
destroy the ship) and destroy the entire port in short order.


Indeed.

Which is why (okay, I use the TNE rules) I assume ships take off under
contra-grav (air bouyancy) and occasioanl low-thrust puffs from the engines
for directional control.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:52:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Nick Bradbeer writes:
 
> Indeed.
> 
> Which is why (okay, I use the TNE rules) I assume ships take off under
> contra-grav (air bouyancy) and occasioanl low-thrust puffs from the engines
> for directional control.

Oh, certainly, as long as you have ships with both CG and HEPlaR, and only
use HEPlaR in space, you're fine -- however, standard designs frequently
don't have contragravity.  HEPlaR is a fast way to commit suicide in any
sort of atmosphere, or near the ground.  Incidentally, contragravity is
capable of doing directional control without any use of thrust anyway.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:57:23 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

>Oh, certainly, as long as you have ships with both CG and HEPlaR, and only
use HEPlaR in space, you're fine -- however, standard designs frequently
don't have contragravity.  HEPlaR is a fast way to commit suicide in any
sort of atmosphere, or near the ground.  Incidentally, contragravity is
capable of doing directional control without any use of thrust anyway.


Well, every single ship in Brilliant Lances (that's all the classic designs)
has contra grav, except for the Lab Ship, Donosev, Chrysanthemum and Aurora.
All those four are unstreamlined, and thus not atmosphere-capable.


I thought CG could only change the magnitude of your gravitational vector
(ie reducing it by up to two orders of magnitude), not affect the direction
of it. If it can affect the vector's direction, has it not just become a
thruster plate?

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:07:52 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Grav deck plates.

At 01:03 AM 8/23/99 -0800, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
> > That was my solution in a (forgive me, I have sinned... I was young,
> > naive...) Star Trek game once.  After the bad guys transported to our
> > bridge.  Hold on to the console, and just flip the AG on and off.... as
> > everyone floats off the deck and then crashes back down.
>
>Not-so-silly question.
>
>Why would they "float off the deck"?
>
>Seriously, this is *the* single biggest error in damn near every movie,
>TV program and even *story* that deals with zero-g.
>
>If you are in the middle of a compartment in zero g, you'll stay there
>unless some force pulls or pushes you out of that location.
>
>But if you are along a wall (or the floor or ceiling) you'll *also*
>stay right there unless some force moves you.
>
>Removing gravity *won't* make you "float up". But your muscles mighgt
>push you off gently.

Well, at that particular moment, the bad guys (can't remember who they were
now...Cardassians maybe...)  had just transported aboard and were in the
process of running around the bridge disarming the crew, shouting at
people, and generally swaggering a lot (on second thought, maybe they were
Klingons...).  It seemed to me that chances were good that most of them
were in the process of taking a step as the gravity shut off, and would
thus be flung away from the floor.  Even those that were standing perfectly
still, would still automatically shift their weight when the gravity was
released and be unable to regain balance quickly enough to avoid falling.

IMHO, this would certainly not work against any Traveller combatants, who
are routinely trained for Zero-G operations, but remember that these were
_Star_Trek_ villains... And at least until Star Trek 6, there's been almost
no evidence that anyone in that world could fight in Zero-G.  Well, Spock
maybe....

           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
                          defend to the death your right to say it."
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
                                           -- Albert Einstein
for PGP public-key and
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:15:00 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)

Tascelt@aol.com posted:
>
>Damn it Jesse!!  Tim and I have been suggesting shirts to you for years and

>NOW your're going to do it?
>
>TAS

Ah, but *I* made a critical success roll on my Sucking Up skill.

;-)

David

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:01:45 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Off topic - Insulting Leonard

Phil Kitching wrote:

>Interesting.
>
>I thought asterisks represent bold or emphasis.
>
>Also that underscores represent underlining, which represents italics.

*Bold*

_Underline_

/Italic/

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Nick Bradbeer writes:
 
> I thought CG could only change the magnitude of your gravitational vector
> (ie reducing it by up to two orders of magnitude), not affect the direction
> of it. If it can affect the vector's direction, has it not just become a
> thruster plate?

Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only be
used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
local force of gravity.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:44:44 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

>> I thought CG could only change the magnitude of your gravitational vector
>> (ie reducing it by up to two orders of magnitude), not affect the
direction
>> of it. If it can affect the vector's direction, has it not just become a
>> thruster plate?
>
>Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only be
used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
local force of gravity.



Where does it say this? I only have access to CT and TNE canon.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:52:27 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)

Replying late to this thread, but I'd _dearly_ love to see:

 Scout base on Gas Giant Moon
 Starport Cover Outtake
 Empress Marava in port
 Highport with Free Trader



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:26:30 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Slings and Outrageous Fortunes of War

>Actually, it sounds more like a human powered trebuchet...


Yes, but they did exist..
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:17:52 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Andre Norton Followups...

>Also, you can go *nuts* trying to tie Norton's books together. I
>believe that Catseye (or one of the other books dealing with Forerunner
>artifacts) has a passing reference to the Caverns of Arzor. Which ties
>that book/series to the Hosteen Storm books. Only problem is, in the
>latter series, Earth has been rendered uninhabitable. Yet I can show
>links equally good to books like The Last Planet. :-)

The Last Planet was the ***first*** real book I ever read, as well as the
first novel and first science fiction book.  I've always imagined that the
books take place against a multi-millennium long background.  Humans
discover spaceflight by time mining the secret of spacetravel from Foreunner
technology. They start exploring space and colonizing. Eventually they meet
other races and eventually supplant them almost entirely. Over the centuries
the location of Earth is entirely forgotten, though the legend lives on.

If you figure that the stories are generally separated by centuries it's
much easier to accept the inconsistancie.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:41:31 -0700
From: Edward Swatschek <edjs@bitslayer.net>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

At 11:37 99/08/23 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
>gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only
>be used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
>local force of gravity.

This depends on the game system being used.  In TNE/FF&S, contragravity
simply reduced the gravitational vector over a specific volume by 99%.  In
an atmosphere, this might make the ship neutrally or positively buoyant,
but no thrust is involved - that would be provided by HEPlaR or some other
engine.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:05:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Edward Swatschek writes:

> This depends on the game system being used.  In TNE/FF&S, contragravity
> simply reduced the gravitational vector over a specific volume by 99%.  In
> an atmosphere, this might make the ship neutrally or positively buoyant,
> but no thrust is involved - that would be provided by HEPlaR or some other
> engine.
 
Um...wrong ;)  It provided 10-20% of gravitational force sideways in
TNE/FF&S.  In Striker it could provide any amount of sideways force.  I
don't know about T4 or MT.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:10:22 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Edward Swatschek wrote:
> 
> At 11:37 99/08/23 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> >Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
> >gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only
> >be used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
> >local force of gravity.
> 
> This depends on the game system being used.  In TNE/FF&S, contragravity
> simply reduced the gravitational vector over a specific volume by 99%.  In
> an atmosphere, this might make the ship neutrally or positively buoyant,
> but no thrust is involved - that would be provided by HEPlaR or some other
> engine.

In FF&S2, page 18 (gravitic vehicle design sequence):  "Most of the
force is directed parallel to the gravity field (straight up and down),
but a fraction of the lift is available to provide thrust."

This sentence is repeated almost verbatim on page 65, dealing with
thrust agencies.

Under "Reactionless Thrusters" (also page 65, FF&S2):
"...'Contragravity' at earlier tech levels can only interact with the
local gravitational field (and is hence limited to use near a planetary
surface)...."

Hope this helps....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:28:37 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com>
Subject: Re: Cloning (was Hard Science)

> Tom wrote:
> > Perhaps this is one of the reasons that cloning never took off big in the
> > 3I, Ziru Sirka, or Rule of Man.  Surely the nobility in all three Imperiums
> > wouldn't want an emperor/emperess to live forever even in cloned form.  The
> > Moot would never stand for it.  OTOH there were alot of emperors in the 3I
> > that were suceeded by assassination.  Maybe they were looking in to the
> > forbidden(?) science of cloning?
> 
> Well, other than Cleon the Mad, and Strephon the Clone, the rest of the
> Emperors who died by 'right of assasination' were all Barracks Emperors during
> the Civil War. They all died not for experimenting with cloning, but
> experimenting with crowning themselves Emperor.;-)

You're forgetting the Empress that Cleon The Not Wrapped Too Tight whacked.
<grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
                                                     Science-Fiction
Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:15:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS and delays in response

Hi all,

DISCLAIMER - Not an official statement on behalf of BITS, but an
explanation:

Some of you writing to us by email may have seen some delay in response
from BITS. Firstly, we aren't ignoring you! BITS is run by volunteers, and
at the moment we are pulling together the material for release at GenCon UK
99, preparing to run the trade stand, 3 RPGA tournaments and a number of
demonstrations, and dealing with real life(tm) (imminent fatherhood for
some people, major work projects etc). We only have a small active CORE
<grin> which means that time is being juggled.

At present, we have four books in the last stages of preparation (you've
seen 3 advertised here, ACQ being the fourth) plus three tournaments (which
require nearly the same effort), and we're also doing the usual newsletter,
2nd hand material and website...

Hopefully, once GenCon is out of the way things will calm down, and we'll
go through the non-urgent mails. if you need to contact someone at BITS
(bits@bits.org.uk) urgently, mark your subject line URGENT, or copy me (for
example). I hope to see some of you in the flesh at GenCon UK 99, maybe for
a drink at the bar, or a game at the stand or the demo area. FWIW we are
actually in two locations this year - in the trade hall, and running demos
in the balcony above (GURPS Traveller & T4 as the standards, but I'm sure
we'll get volunteers for CT, MT and TNE as ever). As ever, we're happy for
anyone who wants to volunteer to try their hand at running a game/demo.

All the best,

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
                       MiB - Marines in Battledress
   "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:22:13 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: The Heritage Trilogy

At 06:01 AM 8/23/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I started with the second one, Luna Marine. It's definitely a lot less
>jingoistic than the first, concentrating less on the UN as an evil empire
>and more on the ramifications of the "Hunters of Dawn". The "Hunters of
>Dawn" are dominate cultures that go around killing off lower tech cultures
>before they evolve enough technology to kill them. A very cool thought for a
>Traveller campaign.

Wasn't that the premise of Weber's Mutineer Moon/Armageddon inheritance
series as well?

           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
                          defend to the death your right to say it."
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
                                           -- Albert Einstein
for PGP public-key and
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:28:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Slings

>William F. Hostman wrote:
>>
>> A staff sling is essentially a hand sling on a 2m pole... and is not
>> twirled, but used exactly like an atlatl, only much easier to do
>> successfully.
>
>Actually, it sounds more like a human powered trebuchet...
>
Trebuchets keep a cup fixed to the end of the arm, and the cup remains open.

Staff slings: the sling's cup is attached by two lines (3-4 feet long is
good). One of these is fixed to the pole near the end. The other string is
terminated in a loop small enough not to fall past the first one's
fixation, but loose enough to fall off if you point the tip down. The start
position is with the staff parrallel tothe deck tip behind you, with a
loaded pocket.Generally, you then (rapidly) bring forward the staff til it
is roughly 45 degrees from parallel in front of you. The second loop lets
go normally about when you stop the swing, but the cup is lagging. When the
string lets go, several things happen, including putting a spin on the
projectile, converting that rotational velocity into linear velocity, and
also opening up the cup to actually let the projectile go.

The thing can be used while kneeling (I've done it). In a Short trench, two
guys could work it easily.

Oh, and just for reference, a golf ball can occasionally be sent  over 200
m in flat terrain by a practiced stafslinger.

William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click
interface!"
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-
533
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis
http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis    ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #999
**********************************

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--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <200204050028.DJF00683@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I expect that there will be major revisions, and additions.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:29:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:29:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204050009.DJD04543@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 4:09 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> If I could have an example of both files, I'm sure I could
> write something, but it would be a Windows app.
> 

Repeat after me

windows = hell
Bill Gates = anitchrist

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bryn Monnery)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <182.62a974a.29dca666@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405015316.02b11020@pop.mail.yahoo.com>

At 13:39 03/04/02 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 02/04/02 22:58:51 GMT Daylight Time, 
>ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:
>
>
>>TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to 
>>He4.  One
>>assumes the neutron problems have been solved.
>
>
>Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing 
>"up" to He4 :)

Protium - Protium fusion (Protium = Hydrogen-1, Deuterium = Hydrogen-2, 
Tritium = Hydgrogen-3)

Bryn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:06:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:06:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod says that Microsoft and Bill Gates are evil
<snip>

Yes, but that's what my customers use.
I used to have my head in the sand, and only worked on OS/2 
and Solaris machines.

I was unemployed for quite a while.

Then, I started chanting

By the beans of Java
I set my mind in motion...

and did the Windows dance.  And said, "I like making Larry 
Ellison rich.  Everyone buy Oracle now."

Let's not mention that I like Smalltalk, Unix, and DB/2.

ObTrav:  There has to be a similar monopoly in Imperial 
space, and everyone would buy into it, even if it didn't work 
very well.  There have to be "standards", you know.  And it 
wouldn't be the best system, or language, or database, etc. 
It would be the one that had the most ruthless marketing.  
And no Imperial law would stop it.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
In-Reply-To: <3CAA76E1.BA4A2BC6@premier.net>
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>
 <p04330105b8d0233486e4@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA76E1.BA4A2BC6@premier.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b8d2ab0aa6d7@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:28 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
>"David P. Summers" wrote:
>>
>>  At 7:41 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
>>  >"David P. Summers" wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >>  In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
>>  >>  tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
>>  >>  arrays.....
>>  >
>>  >Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
>>  >masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....
>>
>>  But the tags would be unforgeable based on the penguins DNA!  Clearly
>>  this would be justified based on the threat that penguins pose.  (How
>>  could the Imperium  claim to control their territory if penguins roam
>>  free?)
>
>Then the penguins merely graft a patch of non-penguin-waterfowl skin and
>feathers to the tag attachment point (ideally waterfowl generally
>engaged as tramp freighters or system defense birds), change the tag
>code to suit the new DNA and proceed on their marauding ways.... ;-)
>
>The struggle between measure and countermeasure is a never-ending one,
>as neither side is likely to gain lasting superiority.

But the Imperium has so many ships that they could afford to have one 
sitting anyplace a penguin might threaten the public safety!
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMELMDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Bill doesn't rate higher than apostate or a false profit, tops

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

on 4/4/02 4:09 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> If I could have an example of both files, I'm sure I could
> write something, but it would be a Windows app.
>

Repeat after me

windows = hell
Bill Gates = anitchrist

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEELNDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Must be the company that makes the Anti-Hijacking software for CT. Or
whoever made fighter craft so impotent.

I want a PA barbette on my Mk V fighter! waaaah

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

ObTrav:  There has to be a similar monopoly in Imperial
space, and everyone would buy into it, even if it didn't work
very well.  There have to be "standards", you know.  And it
wouldn't be the best system, or language, or database, etc.
It would be the one that had the most ruthless marketing.
And no Imperial law would stop it.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 18:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr  4 18:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204051011470.16403-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Tod:

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Repeat after me
>
> windows = hell
> Bill Gates = anitchrist

 Ah a man with similiar sentiments.

"Windows is not the answer. It is the problem. The answer is NO!"

"Window, just say NO!!"

 From your friendly Biased Commodore only user. <VBG>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 18:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr  4 18:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
References: <200204041157.DIF02066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404185037.009f1170@mindspring.com>

At 05:04 PM 4/4/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Classic Traveller says the default blade skill that Marines cascade to is 
>Bayonet.  For reasons of tradition, esprit de corps, inspiring confidence 
>in troops, and instilling the proper spirit of attack.  Same reasons that 
>Marc Miller had to suffer through bayonet drills when he was in the Army 
>even though the widespread opinion of the day was that bayonet training is 
>obsolete.

Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while 
desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to 
perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 19:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 19:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174808.00a7d008@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404215235.01f48c40@192.168.0.1>

At 02:56 PM 4/4/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Mark Urbin writes:
> >
> > The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF
> > since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.
>
>Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a reference _since_ Lensman, though 
>there
>certainly was one in Lensman.  In any case, it hasn't been a 'staple' exactly.

Ok, I stand corrected.  It's been around since Lensmen, and it *should* be 
a staple of SF. :-)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 19:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 19:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404185037.009f1170@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 6:52 PM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while
> desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to
> perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.
> 

In point of fact, the bayonet is more of a hazard to the soldier than an
aide.  During the last war for which we have statistics (Vietnam), more
soldiers injured themselves with bayonets than were injured by enemy
bayonets.  This is also true of WWII.

Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary weapon of the
infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  number of wounds caused by
bayonets was extremely small.

The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed civilians.  It has little or
no military application, contrary to popular mythos.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 19:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr  4 19:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
References: <200204041157.DIF02066@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020404185037.009f1170@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c1dc54$e81469a0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Berry" <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while
> desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to
> perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.

Tell that to the British Para's...

The don't seem to feel a war is a war until they have done at least one
Bayonet Charge...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <20020405003207.32532279F6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CAD22FC.313506AE@earthlink.net>

Walt Smith posted:
> 
> They had a lot of factors working against them.  Nothing
> inside the ship was any kind of secureable except the computer
> room, since no one was supposed to be aboard except
> triple-cleared company employees.  They had a traitor in their
> midst, and a secret agenda going on from their corporate masters.
> A small group of wage-slave technicians running a cargo ship
> were way out of their league, and had an appropriate casualty
> rate.

And how would you rate the Colonial Marine unit in "Aliens"?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>

I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler
had a Derringer attached to some kind of mechanical
"holster". The device was worn somehow on the forearm
and pushed the gun into the hand.

Can anyone tell me what this device was and where
I could find details on it?


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404231607.01f78e88@192.168.0.1>

At 10:13 PM 4/4/2002 -0600, David Smart wrote:
>I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler
>had a Derringer attached to some kind of mechanical
>"holster". The device was worn somehow on the forearm
>and pushed the gun into the hand.
>Can anyone tell me what this device was and where
>I could find details on it?

Secret Service Agent James West (Wild Wild West TV show) had one too.
They loved gadgets on that show.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404231607.01f78e88@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000501c1dc5d$168ea180$2f7de40c@loki>

At 10:13 PM 4/4/2002 -0600, David Smart wrote:
>I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler

All I found are references to 'spring-loaded arm rigs' and a lot of fan
fiction to the Magnificent Seven in my google search.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B8D28F8B.37603%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405024811.02b7a0e0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon says:
>Makes me think that a lot of navigators will get their
>training doing Imperial x-boat, and then change career to fly
>for a private broker or a merchant line that contracts to
>brokers.

Nice touch it.  I'll use it.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Navigator skill affecting jump duration & accuracy (was Re:
 economic crash)
In-Reply-To: <002d01c1dbf2$1d1b9500$52200050@matt>
References: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405024958.02b7bec0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon suggested a rule for dicing precise jump duration in plus or 
minus hours from the nominal of precisely seven days.

My memory of the 'Starship Operators Manual' from DGP isn't detailed 
enough, but they had rules on this that I really liked.  It started to give 
Navigation skill a useful purpose besides making sure somebody aboard had 
at least one level of it.  Sadly, my copy of SOP is among my trove of 
mislaid Favorite Traveller References that _still_ evades detection.  If 
only I could offer the other inanimate objects in my house a bounty for 
dropping a dime on the missing trove.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C360B@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405025738.02b7da30@pop.wizard.net>

At 03:34 PM 4/4/02 -0800, you wrote:
><snip of Laning's movie reviews>
>
>Regarding Resident Evil, it also had some interesting anti-hijack routines
>masked as bio-hazard containment.  Particularly liked the system in the hall
>leading to the Red Queen :D
>
>Jesse

Yeah, that was medieval.  In an extremely high tech way.  I think 'Resident 
Evil' has quite a bit of useful source material for RPGs, but I didn't want 
to get into spoilers.

Oh.  Jesse, my wife and I both loved the Britannia site, thanks.  The 
interior shots are all _perfect_ for use to illustrate a Traveller yacht 
(well, maybe not the bridge interior, lol).  I am completely unskilled at 
doing such things but I thought it would be great to take the ones with 
portholes and show stars or a planet from low orbit or something outside.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 00:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Fri Apr  5 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c1dc7a$655e8a60$f000a8c0@imogen>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor
> training.

I used to work a a company that tried for (and got) ISO 9000/9001
certification: it was easy-peasy!

1) Have a documented procedure for everything
2) Make sure all staff know where the latest  versions  of  those
   documents are (ie. where on the PC server)

The fact that we didn't actually follow those  procedures  (close
scrutiny would have revealed they were unworkable anyhow)  didn't
seem to matter.

Its just a case of understanding the game.



> Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.
> 
> "You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections &
> standards"

Make a "saving throw" against Admin skill to understand the  game
and avoid any significant impediments.  In MT terms ...



    To comply with local business standards.
    Routine, Admin and EDU, 1 hour (safe)

    Referee: If not familiar with local customs (ie. offworlders)
             then  increase  difficulty  to  Difficult.   Trading
             is limited until this task is passed successfully.




Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 00:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 00:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>

Any of you guys know Ruby?
http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/index.html

A guy I respect _very_ much is presently raving about it.
http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2001/10/25/ruby.html

It might as well be Sanskrit to me, I haven't looked at it at all.  But if 
Colin likes it, I like it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 00:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 00:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMELMDJAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>

BillGatus of Borg.  Bah.  I shake my head, bereft of words.

Anyway.  Back when I was doing tech support on the phones for AOL, I talked 
a guy about three times who would always pepper his conversation with how 
little respect he had for Gates, and "I knew that guy back when he went 
from user group to user group selling his stuff out of the back of a 
station wagon."  It was amusing as hell, though I didn't let that guy know 
I thought so or we would have got way off topic for a long time.  I hope 
you get a laugh out of that one.

ObTrav:  In the early 1100s, is there anyone who occupies a position 
analogous to Bill Gates in our own society today?  In terms of being 
notoriously rich and geeky and merciless and rich and reviled and admired 
and rich and ubiquitous and rich and not even Ministry of Justice bullets 
can stop him.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 04:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 04:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204051219.DKC00217@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary 
>weapon of the infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  
>number of wounds caused by bayonets was extremely small.
>

Bayonets were used successfully in the Falklands.

Also, if I find someone at the end of my bayonet, it's 
unlikely that they'll be "wounded".  It's equally unlikely 
that they'll make it to the aid station.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 04:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Fri Apr  5 04:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCMEEHDOAA.andy@exeus.com>

Try

	http://www.cia.gov/spy_fi/item21.html

and

	http://home.earthlink.net/~backslash/

They're called Sleeveguns and cost $295.

Andy Brick
andy@exeus.com
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.344 / Virus Database: 191 - Release Date: 02/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 04:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr  5 04:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B6C@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
> Sent: 05 April 2002 13:20
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
> 
> 
> Tod Glenn says
> >Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary 
> >weapon of the infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  
> >number of wounds caused by bayonets was extremely small.
> >
> 
> Bayonets were used successfully in the Falklands.

True, but the Bayonet Charge(s?) in the Falklands produced few
casualties from bayonet wounds. The principal aim of a bayonet charge is
to cause the flight or surrender of the defenders of a position. One of
the Argentinians on the receiveing end of the charge recounted in a
documentary some years later that as a 19 year old conscript the sight
of 40 or so strapping Para's charging at him with fixed bayonets,
screaming as they came, filled him with such terror that he couldn't
move... he was fixated on the fact that those guys coming at him wanted
to stick whacking great holes in him, up close and personal. As soon as
the initial terror subsided he (and now I can't recall exactly which)
either threw down his weapon and ran for his life, or threw down his
weapon and surrendered.

To quote Corporal Jones in Dad's Army... "Cold Steel, Sir. They don't
like it up 'em!"

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 05:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Fri Apr  5 05:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
References: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DAV33JYS74UiXodol1500008c87@hotmail.com>

Christian in Action has a picture of the sleeve gun assembly used by Bob
Conrad in Thee Wild, Wild West at

http://www.cia.gov/spy_fi/item21.html

The man who made the original prop was (is?) selling them to people sans
firearm.  His website at sleevegun.com is now under construction, but you
can see Google's cache of his site at

http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:_T42pJBhY0UC:sleevegun.com/+sleevegun&h
l=en&ie=UTF8

This site includes a picture of an arm rig.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com

> I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler
> had a Derringer attached to some kind of mechanical
> "holster". The device was worn somehow on the forearm
> and pushed the gun into the hand.
>
> Can anyone tell me what this device was and where
> I could find details on it?
>
>
> David
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 05:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr  5 05:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405134530.5456.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> Repeat after me
> 
> windows = hell
> Bill Gates = anitchrist

Although my Dante is rusty and my personal sentiments
don't agree...

"Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."

To Paraphrase...

"Better to trust your livlihood to Billy Bob's Window
World than to not make any living at all."

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 06:42:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri Apr  5 06:42:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
References: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt> <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se> <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt> <5.1.0.14.2.20020402201259.009ec960@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CADB846.8070706@gmx.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

 > At 07:40 PM 4/2/02 +0200, you wrote:
 >
 >> Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
 >> food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
 >> predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
 >> for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world
 >> under
 >> the ice.
 >
 >
 > Jedi Jellyfish Under The Ice!  I love it!
 >
 >
Yes...but they're probably easy meat for the Imperial Penguin Corps.

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump. 
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <F120FrbDLuPOuIGGsMq000028cf@hotmail.com>

From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>

     "I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler had a Derringer 
attached to some kind of mechanical "holster". The device was worn somehow 
on the forearm and pushed the gun into the hand."

     "Can anyone tell me what this device was and where I could find details 
on it?"


Mr. Smart,

     My admittedly brief Google search turned up little more than a lot of 
"Magnificent Seven" fan-fics.  Fiddling with the search words should bear 
fruit however.
     Another pop culture reference for such a device cn be found in 
Harrison's "Deathworld" trilogy.  The Pyrrhans(sp) are outfitted with a 
contraption that slams a very large, hair-triggered, pistol into their fists 
at the slightest twitch.  The hero, Jason din Alt mentions how learning to 
use the damn thing nearly breaks his hand.
     I've also seen gizmos tucked up one's sleeve that deliver playing 
cards.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <200204051219.DKC00217@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D2FF19.37640%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 4:19 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Bayonets were used successfully in the Falklands.

Define 'successfully'.  How many casualties were produced by bayonets?
> 
> Also, if I find someone at the end of my bayonet, it's
> unlikely that they'll be "wounded".  It's equally unlikely
> that they'll make it to the aid station.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3611@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Just to set things straight, it was John Groth that recommended the
Brittania site [tips Diet Pepsit to John <'cause it's too early for beer ;)
>]
Jesse

<snip>
Oh.  Jesse, my wife and I both loved the Britannia site, thanks.  The 
interior shots are all _perfect_ for use to illustrate a Traveller yacht 
(well, maybe not the bridge interior, lol).  I am completely unskilled at 
doing such things but I thought it would be great to take the ones with 
portholes and show stars or a planet from low orbit or something outside.

--Laning

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3cadc22c.4909163@post.demon.co.uk>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:

>The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed civilians.  It has little =
or
>no military application, contrary to popular mythos.

... I wouldn't go that far...  Firstly, bayonets were primarily a
_defensive_ weapon:  they stopped infantry being overrun and trampled
by cavalry.  ("Form square!")

Secondly, they *could* be the means by which infantry could turn an
indecisive firefight into a crushing rout of the enemy.
Unfortunately, bayonet charges like this only really worked if the
enemy was already weak and disorganised.  Against untrained native
levies in colonial warfare, bayonets were far more effective than
muskets.  They used less ammunition, too...  Unfortunately, that
tended to give those armies involved in colonial warfare an
over-inflated view of the benefits of the bayonet, which would be
disastrous once they faced the firepower of Western armies on a modern
battlefield.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <20020405134530.5456.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405074625.009ee8d0@mindspring.com>

At 05:45 AM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:

>Although my Dante is rusty and my personal sentiments
>don't agree...
>
>"Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."

That's Milton, from "Paradise Lost."

Dante's best line came from The Inferno... the inscription on the gates of 
Hell.

"I AM THE WAY INTO THE CITY OF WOE
I AM THE WAY TO A FORSAKEN PEOPLE
I AM THE WAY INTO ETERNAL SORROW

SACRED JUSTICE MOVED MY ARCHITECT
I WAS RAISED THERE BY DIVINE OMNIPOTENCE
PRIMORDIAL LOVE AND ULTIMATE INTELLECT.

ONLY THOSE ELEMENTS TIME CANNOT WEAR
WERE MADE BEFORE ME, AND BEYOND TIME I STAND.
ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."

I want that on the door to my gaming room.. :)

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <F120FrbDLuPOuIGGsMq000028cf@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405160321.61448.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>      Another pop culture reference for such a device
> cn be found in 
> Harrison's "Deathworld" trilogy.  The Pyrrhans(sp)
> are outfitted with a 
> contraption that slams a very large, hair-triggered,
> pistol into their fists 
> at the slightest twitch.  The hero, Jason din Alt
> mentions how learning to 
> use the damn thing nearly breaks his hand.

My favorite of this type is from the Alan Cole/Chris
Bunch _Sten_ series.  (Admittedly light scifi and
light reading, but as a diversion, I enjoyed it.) 

In any case, the protagonist, Sten, has a sheath
biologically implanted in his forearm.  The weapon is
grown crystals and form fitted to his hand.  The blade
tapers to molecular thickness.  A simple twitch and
the blade slides into his palm ready for use.

(Yes, I can hear the suspenders snapping/shattering,
but I did warn you that it was light scifi)

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405074625.009ee8d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020405161906.71131.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> That's Milton, from "Paradise Lost."

Thanks for the editing.  My classics are a bit rusty. 
That's what too much reading of Dr. Seuss does.


> Dante's best line came from The Inferno... the
...snippit...
> ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."
> 
> I want that on the door to my gaming room.. :)

When I play a Chief Engineer, I want it on the door to
engineering.  No need to lock it up, the passengers
will stay away without any security keeping them out. 
(Unless the passengers are Player Characters, then
Satan himself couldn't keep them from trying.)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051636.DKL02665@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

There was a Harry Harrison series of novels that also had an 
arm rig that figured prominently in the storyline.

IMHO, it looks bulky, uncomfortable, and likely to blow your 
fingers off. That, and the weapon that pops out is unlikely 
to do more than draw return fire (or put bullet holes in your 
computer at an inopportune moment). You've got maybe two 
shots, and the weapon is likely to be something weak.

If you're allowed to carry concealed, carry a regular 
pistol.  After all, even if the 9mm doesn't impress him with 
the first shot, I'm sure the remaining rounds in the magazine 
will.

That, and carry a second pistol somewhere else on the body 
for a NYPD "speedload".

ObTrav:  The easiest holdout to design would be a laser.  You 
could isolate the powerpack and electronics at some other 
location under the clothing, run a fiber optic cable to the 
hand area, contrive a trigger (ring pull?), and have the exit 
optics somewhere over the back of the hand.  If you made a 
fist, and curled the fist inward, the ring would pull the 
trigger and the beam would fire over the back of the hand.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204051641.DKL03427@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>Define 'successfully'.  How many casualties were produced by 
>bayonets?

If I win, I win. Casualties or not.

I will admit that a bayonet is a dangerous thing to have 
around.  The first casualty I saw in the Gulf War to arrive 
at the forward aid station during the ground war was a 
bayonet casualty.  A Bradley gunner was wearing his LBE open, 
and the bayonet fell out and stuck, blade up, in the back of 
his seat.  At some point, he ducked down and slammed the 
hatch overhead.  Suddenly, he noticed something cold, hard, 
and far too long up his backside.  So he stood up, and opened 
the hatch, and let the whole world know it.

I told him that he'll never be able to tell his kids about 
the war.  He spent the next two weeks lying on his face, 
while the nurses changed the packing several times a day 
without painkillers.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051643.DKL03760@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug brings up Dante
<snip>

Oh, I think that Marlowe's Mephistopheles was better:

Hell hath no limits
Nor is circumscribed in one self space
For where we are is Hell,
and where Hell is, there we shall ever be



________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 09:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (KevinC)
Date: Fri Apr  5 09:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
References: <20020405003205.D8ED7279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> I am trying to converts old TML archives into a format that the new Mailman
> archiver can use.  Here the problem.  When the messages were originally
> saved, they were saved as digests with most of the header stripped of each
> message.

Tod,

Will the new TML archive be accessible by web search engines and
bots/spiders?

If yes, then you need to do something to protect the email addresses of
anyone whose posts are in the archive.

Otherwise "harvesters" will grab them all, and spam the good ( still
active) ones.

-- 
KevinC               Pentapod's World of 2300AD
kevinc@cnetech.com   http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2303/
                     http://go.to/PentapodsWorld


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 09:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 09:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051636.DKL02665@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEMIDJAA.tml@downport.com>

A .45 Colt Derringer is two shots at point blank. By the time you pull your
Beretta out of your shoulder holster, kung foo kitty has already broken your
neck at that range. Also good in a knife fight, or after you have emptied or
lost your Colt .45

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

IMHO, it looks bulky, uncomfortable, and likely to blow your
fingers off. That, and the weapon that pops out is unlikely
to do more than draw return fire (or put bullet holes in your
computer at an inopportune moment). You've got maybe two
shots, and the weapon is likely to be something weak.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 09:27:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 09:27:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <20020405.092414.-73051.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

> --- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> > "ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."
> > 

Back in 1986 I added the above quote to our office computer system when I
was its oporator. I ran closing, mid and end of month stuff. Well, the
quote freaked out the Buyer, Accounts receivables, and a couple early
imput girls who didn't want to log on the next morning. Fortunately for
me I came in before the boss.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051758.DKN05522@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>
>A .45 Colt Derringer is two shots at point blank.

Have you seen how much a .45 Colt derringer weighs?  It's a 
steel brick.  Much better just to whack someone in the face 
with it in your fist.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:02:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:02:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051801.DKN05830@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>Well, the quote freaked out the Buyer, Accounts receivables, 
>and a couple early imput girls who didn't want to log on the 
>next morning. Fortunately for me I came in before the boss.
>

I've gotten called on the carpet for more than one e-mail sig 
that people "don't get".  Some of them were completely 
unoffensive, as far as I was concerned.

Sometimes there's a lot to be gained if none of your co-
workers know what your hobbies or prior careers were.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
References: <200204051758.DKN05522@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CADEAEB.10501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Have you seen how much a .45 Colt derringer weighs?  It's a 
> steel brick.  Much better just to whack someone in the face 
> with it in your fist.

Deal! I'll let Swordy whack me in the face with it and shoot you. Betcha 
I get up first ;-)

And they're not all that heavy...I thwacked myself on the head with my 
father-in laws' 357 Derringer once, digging in the closet for some 
shoes. A .45 isn't going to weigh a lot more than a .357 one.

(he had it in a coat pocket of one of his suits. Bruce digging in closet 
"Ah! There they are <KLONK> What the...!!!" <dig dig> "Jeez what's doing 
with a pocket cannon like that!??")

Seriously, (so to speak) DiNiro makes a rig like this in Taxi Driver out 
of a drawer slide and duct tape.

(if the women don't find ya handsome...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk> <001001c1dc2b$d13fac40$a6ecff3e@k5k9u6>
Message-ID: <3CADEB80.1080907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

nellkyn wrote:

> 
> Please stop it and make it go away! I've just suffered a BSI surveillance
> visit today. Traveller is where I get away from the real world.
> 
> Obtrav
> Would there be a standards institute in the 3I?
> Would ISO 9000 appeal to the Vilani sense bureaucracy?


One sentence that engenders fear and panic in every starship owner's 
heart: 'Bwap compliance inspector.'

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <3CADEAEB.10501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEMJDJAA.tml@downport.com>

The classic version weighs about the same as an empty coffee mug (15 oz). I
carry a mug with varying amounts of coffee in it all day long, to I'm
already in shape ;)

I suppose a light-weight could opt for a .44 at half the heft (7.5 oz) and
still be able to best a knife wielding punk.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Johnson

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Have you seen how much a .45 Colt derringer weighs?  It's a
> steel brick.  Much better just to whack someone in the face
> with it in your fist.

Deal! I'll let Swordy whack me in the face with it and shoot you. Betcha
I get up first ;-)

And they're not all that heavy...I thwacked myself on the head with my
father-in laws' 357 Derringer once, digging in the closet for some
shoes. A .45 isn't going to weigh a lot more than a .357 one.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3611@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405134053.00ab8e50@pop.wizard.net>

At 07:24 AM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Just to set things straight, it was John Groth that recommended the
>Brittania site [tips Diet Pepsit to John <'cause it's too early for beer ;)
> >]
>Jesse

I stand corrected.  John, thank you very much.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:52:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:52:29 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 9:22 AM, KevinC at kevinc@cnetech.com wrote:
> Tod,
> 
> Will the new TML archive be accessible by web search engines and
> bots/spiders?
> 
> If yes, then you need to do something to protect the email addresses of
> anyone whose posts are in the archive.
> 
> Otherwise "harvesters" will grab them all, and spam the good ( still
> active) ones.

I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>
>The classic version weighs about the same as an empty coffee 
>mug (15 oz).

Yes, and it's about half the weight of a Glock.  Half.

That, and unless we're right across the table, it's not as 
easy to hit something as one might think.  If we're as far 
apart as 15 feet, the average shooter is going to miss the 
majority of their shots at that distance (hopefully, Mr. Cook 
has given you some learned lessons).  You get two tries at 
what traditionally is 25% hits, and I get how many?

If you miss, well, I get to keep shooting.

If you're much closer than that, and I see you start the 
draw, it's a short distance to close and hold your arm down 
while I knee you in the groin.

I think that derringers were meant for shooting under the 
table without warning, or for shooting people in the back 
without warning.  The ones I've tried (American Derringer) 
had a tendency to turn in the hand between shots, and take 
time to orient correctly in the hand from the draw (perhaps 
why you'll need the sleeve gadget).

You could, of course, skip the derringer altogether and get a 
true "sleeve gun", which I'm sure Tod will have a legal 
comment on.  

ObTrav: there isn't much "law level" commentary on concealed 
weaponry. Does anyone have house rules on this?

I am less likely to find a derringer on your person with a 
hand search, especially if I'm careless.

I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed 
(in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so 
legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through 
their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears 
off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police 
detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out 
of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a 
no no to begin with).  


________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:07:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:07:29 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:51:56AM -0800
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com> <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405120614.B19040@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:51:56AM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

I would think the GNU Mailman would do this for you...

# $email = &obfuscate_email($email)
#        or
# @emails = &obfuscate_email(@emails)

sub obfuscate_email
{
  my @email = @_;
  my $email;

  foreach $email (@email)
  {
    $email =~ s/@/ at /g;
    $email =~ s/\./ dot /g;
  }
  if ($#email)
  {
    return @email;
  } else {
    return $email[0];
  }
}

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only kind of freedom that the mob can imagine is freedom to annoy
and oppress its betters, and that is precisely the kind that we mainly
have.                                                   --H.L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:09:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:09:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:21:18AM -0500
References: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020405120835.C19040@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:21:18AM -0500, laning wrote:
>
> Any of you guys know Ruby?

I'm afraid it doesn't do a whole lot for me.  I like perl, python,
scheme and C.  I'm sure I would like Common Lisp.  SmallTalk never did
a lot for me, and for awhile I thought C++ was cool--but I no longer
do.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There isn't a single useful thing that we in the CS community can come
up with that some @&%! marketer can't abuse.                 --devphil

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <20020405120614.B19040@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B8D3378F.376BE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 11:06 AM, Robert A. Uhl at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:51:56AM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>> 
>> I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.
> 
> I would think the GNU Mailman would do this for you...
> 
> # $email = &obfuscate_email($email)
> #        or

I haven't looked at the old archives to see how email is buried in there.
In the new lists, all email addresses point to the list address, and any
spammer who want to post to that will have to subscribe to the list.  Then
they'll get all the tml email -- counter spam!
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:15:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:15:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051914.DKP06560@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>SmallTalk never did a lot for me

You must like strong typing.  I learned to love programming 
again.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mole)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3378F.376BE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8D33890.5666%mole@solsec.org>

on 4/5/02 11:14 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> I haven't looked at the old archives to see how email is buried in there.
> In the new lists, all email addresses point to the list address, and any
> spammer who want to post to that will have to subscribe to the list.  Then
> they'll get all the tml email -- counter spam!
> --

"I see your spam and raise you several hundred counter spams"

-- 
Mole


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204051057330.14455-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, laning wrote:
> Any of you guys know Ruby?
> http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/index.html

I've been looking at it; it looks pretty nice.  Most criticisms I've seen
about it tend to point to Python as a better language, though.  As a
result, I'm learning them both at pretty much the same time.  Hard to make
an informed choice without knowing both, after all.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204051914.DKP06560@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:14:24PM -0500
References: <200204051914.DKP06560@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405123244.A19291@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:14:24PM -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> >SmallTalk never did a lot for me
> 
> You must like strong typing.  I learned to love programming 
> again.

I rather think you must mean _static_ typing.  Strong typing means
that expression are guaranteed to be type-safe (either at compile or
run time).  This is the case in nearly every language _but_ C, C++ and
assembler.  Weak typing means, for example, that you can try to add 14
to a string.  The results are generally unexpected.

Static typing means that a variable's type is checked once, at compile
time, and that it never changes.  This is the case in C.  Dynamic
typing is common in most other languages, including Python, SmallTalk
and Scheme.

I like dynamic strong typing.  Weak typing is too error-prone for my
tastes.  Hence I like Scheme a lot.  E.g.:

(define x 3)
(set! x "I am a happy string")
(set! x (lambda (y) (+ (sqrt y) (expt y 2))))

Are all legal.  However, strong typing means that:

(define x "This is a string")
(* x 7)

Is illegal, because * does not handle strings.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
RFC 882 put the dot in .com.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
References: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CADFCD0.6000801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Mark Urbin writes:
> 
>>The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF 
>>since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.
> 
> 
> Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a reference _since_ Lensman, though there
> certainly was one in Lensman.  In any case, it hasn't been a 'staple' exactly.

"Space Viking" H. Beam Piper

"The Forever War" mentions something like this, IIRC, but it's been a 
*long* time since I read it.

Many of the Flandry series, by Poul Anderson mention troopers using 
melee arms. I specifically remember one passage about a big trooper in 
battle dress wielding a 'collapsium-plated battle axe'.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051937.DKR02226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I can add 14 to a String in Smalltalk -- it's just that I'll 
get the message

"String does not understand +"

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:38:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:38:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 10:57 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> Yes, and it's about half the weight of a Glock.  Half.
> 
> That, and unless we're right across the table, it's not as
> easy to hit something as one might think.  If we're as far
> apart as 15 feet, the average shooter is going to miss the
> majority of their shots at that distance (hopefully, Mr. Cook
> has given you some learned lessons).  You get two tries at
> what traditionally is 25% hits, and I get how many?

As a note, it should be mentioned that a derringer's intrinsic accuracy is
the same as for any short barreled pistol.  It's the form factor that is the
problem.  If you put a derringer or any other short barrel handgun in a
Ransom rest, they can shoot remarkably well.

Personally, I think they are pretty useless except as a totalaly last
result.
> 
> I think that derringers were meant for shooting under the
> table without warning, or for shooting people in the back
> without warning.  The ones I've tried (American Derringer)
> had a tendency to turn in the hand between shots, and take
> time to orient correctly in the hand from the draw (perhaps
> why you'll need the sleeve gadget).

Assuming the sleeve gadget works.
> 
> You could, of course, skip the derringer altogether and get a
> true "sleeve gun", which I'm sure Tod will have a legal
> comment on. 

'Disguised' guns are a tricky proposition when dealing with ATF.  For
example, someone developed a holster that holds a derringer, and the
derringer can be fired from within the wallet shaped holster.

"Here's my wallet, sir, Just don't hurt me.  BLAM!  BLAM!"

ATF says that such a wallet and gun constitutes a disguised firearm and must
be registered (I believe and an AOW -- Any Other Weapon $5 transfer tax).
Gun guns, pen guns and other such weapons classify as AOWs.
> 
> ObTrav: there isn't much "law level" commentary on concealed
> weaponry. Does anyone have house rules on this?

Coming right up
> I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
> (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
> legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
> their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
> off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
> detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
> of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
> no no to begin with).

Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.
> 
> 
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <3cadc22c.4909163@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B8D33EA8.376DB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 7:42 AM, Stephen Tempest at tml@stempest.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
>> The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed civilians.  It has little or
>> no military application, contrary to popular mythos.
> 
> ... I wouldn't go that far...  Firstly, bayonets were primarily a
> _defensive_ weapon:  they stopped infantry being overrun and trampled
> by cavalry.  ("Form square!")

But what about Elan!

They were supposedly very offensive as well.  In an infantry charge with
musket you could get off one round and then it was 'in with the bayonet'.

The problem is that neither side really like the bayonet.  We it comes right
down to it, the attackers rarely actually thrust into their opponents. Look
at the reports of the number of actual bayonet wounds in the Napoleonic
wars, or even the American civil war.  The other side usually runs before it
gets to that, or the attackers stop short.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:47:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:47:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEMMDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Sorry to get you going on this stuff. I've been comparing a derringer to a
knife or a fist. 15 feet is as good as a mile with a derringer (at least for
me). This is more of the Body Pistol argument. It is not a serious weapon,
it is bit of muscle when you don't have a serious weapon. It is a bang when
they expect a punch. Not having any aiming abilities*, I'd never try to
shoot further than a yard.

*Forex: on Thanksgiving I was treated to about 50 shots from a small 9mm
handgun. My target was a swinging 2 liter bottle of water at about 10-12
yards. It was still full of water when I got done. Give me a snowball,
though, and things are different ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

"Swordy" says
>
>The classic version weighs about the same as an empty coffee
>mug (15 oz).

Yes, and it's about half the weight of a Glock.  Half.

That, and unless we're right across the table, it's not as
easy to hit something as one might think.  If we're as far
apart as 15 feet, the average shooter is going to miss the
majority of their shots at that distance (hopefully, Mr. Cook
has given you some learned lessons).  You get two tries at
what traditionally is 25% hits, and I get how many?

If you miss, well, I get to keep shooting.

If you're much closer than that, and I see you start the
draw, it's a short distance to close and hold your arm down
while I knee you in the groin.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <3CADEB80.1080907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <001001c1dc2b$d13fac40$a6ecff3e@k5k9u6>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405145001.00a7b1d8@urbin.net>

At 11:22 AM 4/5/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>nellkyn wrote:
>>Please stop it and make it go away! I've just suffered a BSI surveillance
>>visit today. Traveller is where I get away from the real world.
>>Obtrav
>>Would there be a standards institute in the 3I?
>>Would ISO 9000 appeal to the Vilani sense bureaucracy?
>One sentence that engenders fear and panic in every starship owner's 
>heart: 'Bwap compliance inspector.'

That's a keeper!  Bruce, would you mind joining Doug in my RPG sig quote file?



>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"It is both foolish and wicked to teach the average man who is
not well off that some wrong or injustice has been done him,
and that he should hope for redress elsewhere than in his own
industry, honesty, and intelligence." -- Theodore Roosevelt,
"Review of Reviews", January 1897
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>
>Sorry to get you going on this stuff. I've been comparing a 
>derringer to a knife or a fist.

I hope never to be that close to someone when something bad 
happens (then again, consider my luck).

We used to do fighting with rubber knives and chalk, with 
black t-shirts.  From about three paces, I never failed to 
mark someone from the gut to the collar before they could 
clear leather.  That was someone who knew what the exercise 
entailed, and I am by no means a martial artist, or an expert 
with a knife.

Bad things happen really fast. 
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod says:

>I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

Thank you for that.  :->

Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
usenet newsgroups.

Just a thought.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204051937.DKR02226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:37:55PM -0500
References: <200204051937.DKR02226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405130711.B19291@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:37:55PM -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
> I can add 14 to a String in Smalltalk -- it's just that I'll 
> get the message
> 
> "String does not understand +"

(define x "A string")
(+ 14 x)

In guile:
  standard input:51:1: In procedure + in expression (+ 14 x):
  standard input:51:1: Wrong type argument: "A string"
  ABORT: (wrong-type-arg)

  Type "(backtrace)" to get more information.

In umb-scheme:
  Error: Bad argument type to primitive in: (+ 14 x)

In other words, the same thing as in SmallTalk.  Both Scheme and
SmallTalk have strong dynamic typing.  C, OTOH, has weak static
typing.  The C fragment:

char* string = "fellow";
string--;
string = "fool";

Is completely legal, and completely wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Bother,' said Pooh, `Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock
phasers on the Heffalump; Piglet, meet me in transporter room three.'
                                                    --Robert Billing

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:08:38PM -0500
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com> <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020405130926.C19291@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:08:38PM -0500, laning wrote:
> 
> Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
> site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
> then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
> for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
> usenet newsgroups.

I hate that--Yahoo does it.  It means that information is hidden from
all but members, and what had been a public resource is hidden behind
a wall.  Given that there are other, better ways to prevent address
harvesting, I cannot support such a move.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A lady came up to me on the street and pointed at my suede jacket.  `You
know a cow was murdered for that jacket?' she sneered. 
I replied in a psychotic tone, `I didn't know there were any witnesses.
Now I'll have to kill you too.'                        --Jake Johansen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051207400.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, laning wrote:

> Tod says:
> 
> >I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.
> 
> Thank you for that.  :->
> 
> Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
> site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
> then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
> for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
> usenet newsgroups.
> 
That'd be great, as long as my password could be changed by me to
something I wouldn't forget.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <20020405130926.C19291@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051217390.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:08:38PM -0500, laning wrote:
> > 
> > Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
> > site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
> > then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
> > for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
> > usenet newsgroups.
> 
> I hate that--Yahoo does it.  It means that information is hidden from
> all but members, and what had been a public resource is hidden behind
> a wall.  Given that there are other, better ways to prevent address
> harvesting, I cannot support such a move.

Have you ever been tracked down from a public resource?

I have.  

If they want to read our posts they can always sign up.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 11:52 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> We used to do fighting with rubber knives and chalk, with
> black t-shirts.  From about three paces, I never failed to
> mark someone from the gut to the collar before they could
> clear leather.  That was someone who knew what the exercise
> entailed, and I am by no means a martial artist, or an expert
> with a knife.

I'd just like to point out that there is a big difference between practicing
with knives in the dojo and actually using one one someone.  Knife fighting
is a brutal and intimate form of combat.  A single knife thrust or slash is
rarely incapacitating or even debilitating.  To actually stop an attacker
with a knife, you need to be prepared to use it multiple times.  There will
be blood, and possibly screaming.  You will be right in your opponents face.
An he will probably not be cooperating.

The human body is also much better defended against a knife than a firearm.
There are lots of bones to get in the way:  ribs, arms and leg bones, etc.
As an experiment, try thrusting and/or slashing an animal carcass.  Better
if it's hanging on a cord so it's free to swing and twist.  it's a lot
harder than it seems.

Also, most knives are not really up to the challenge of combat.  They are
rarely sharp enough or strong enough to be really effective.  It's hard to
slash through clothing and then deep into meat.  It's hard to thrust between
ribs and not break a point or have the knife twist out of you hand,
especially if there's a lot of blood on everything (including you).

Working in a hospital, I saw a lot of people wounded by knives walk into the
emergency room under their own power.  A few people wounded by handguns did
the same.  I never saw anyone who had been shot by a rifle in a major body
part walk in, they were wheeled in.

I like knives.  I was a professional custom knife maker for several years.
My preference was for 'fighting' knives.  But if I had to pick a weapon, a
knife would be way down my list (after guns, baseball bat, etc.)

A knife is really best as an offensive weapon, provided you are ruthless
enough to use it.  It excels in the surprise silent kill on an unsuspecting
opponents, preferably attacked from behind.  But only if you don't have
something better.

A friend, who worked with Pheonix project while in the service in the 1960s
related to me the story of his one knife encounter (after many beers).  This
person is a large, powerful and rather competent former member Special
Forces.  Attempting to kidnap a local individual for interrogation by his
CIA masters, things got out of hand.  He attempted to use a Randall number 1
(a particularly well regarded combat knife) to end the conflict.  His
opponent was all of 5'5" and of slight build.

Ken reported that he stabbed the individual at least a dozen times.  Blood
was everywhere and the target was screaming like a banshee and fighting like
a tiger.  They lost their grip on the bloody man, who promptly ran off.  He
was captured several days later.

Makes one think.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:33:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:33:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051217390.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:19:15PM -0800
References: <20020405130926.C19291@4dv.net> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051217390.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020405133255.A19481@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:19:15PM -0800, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> Have you ever been tracked down from a public resource?

Yeah--but 'twas a good thing in my case.  And, indeed, it doesn't
bother me--the same can be done with Google and a few minutes in the
white pages, generally.

The development of the Internet into a group of walled-and-gated
communities is not, IMHO, a good thing.

I _really_ hate being forced to choose between registering (and having
who-knows-what happen to my data) and not accessing what is
essentially public information.  After all, anyone can sign up and
archive the list anyway.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Umm...  Excuse me.  I think the network's down?'
`A communications disruption can only mean one thing...invasion.'
          --Lee Maguire, teaching us how to make people go away

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204052034.DKT01667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

So it's a matter of "do you enforce typing" and "when do you 
enforce it".

I like mine done, but only at the last minute.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:35:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:35:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D34A21.37700%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 12:08 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the
> site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address
> then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy
> for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than
> usenet newsgroups.

And would the users bitch.  oh yes.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:32:47PM -0800
References: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405133914.A19510@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:32:47PM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> A knife is really best as an offensive weapon, provided you are ruthless
> enough to use it.  It excels in the surprise silent kill on an unsuspecting
> opponents, preferably attacked from behind.

http://armor.com/2000/catalog/item723.html

Although the picture is not nearly as nice as in the previous edition.
It's actually a beautiful glittering foot-long weapon ideal for that
sort of work.  Not something that has any use in a knife-fight.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
           --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204052034.DKT01667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:34:14PM -0500
References: <200204052034.DKT01667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405134034.B19510@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:34:14PM -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
> So it's a matter of "do you enforce typing" and "when do you 
> enforce it".
> 
> I like mine done, but only at the last minute.

Which is what SmallTalk and Scheme both do.

Now, there are advantages to SmallTalk.  To tell te truth, I just
never cared over-much for its syntax or standard library.  It didn't
do a whole lot for me.  But everyone's different.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Cape Cod Salsa--somehow that's just not right.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:51:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:51:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <3CADFCD0.6000801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405151454.02882b30@pop.wizard.net>

Bruce Johnson:

>Many of the Flandry series, by Poul Anderson mention troopers using melee 
>arms. I specifically remember one passage about a big trooper in battle 
>dress wielding a 'collapsium-plated battle axe'.

Collapsium, eh?  Plated, you say"  Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Beware those lesser-quality battle axes sold by others.  'Collapsium 
plating' can never substitute for the reliable, never-needs-sharpening, 
100%-pure Unobtainium (tm) battle axe sold only by special and exclusive 
arrangement with the only certified maker of battle axes that His Imperial 
Majesty's Marine Corps buys from.

(Video of two people in different colored battle dress facing each 
other.  The one in green battle dress just stands there, arms folded, while 
the one in black battle dress is hacking away uselessly at his chest with a 
battle axe.  You can see pieces of the axe's plating flaking off and 
spinning in every direction each time it strikes the armored chest.)

Voiceover:  "Has this ever happened to you?"

Voiceover:  "Don't wind up like this poor guy who bought from cheap imitators!"

(Video cuts to the person in black battle dress, now laying stretched out 
and unmoving on his back, arms collapsed on the ground as if they had been 
held up defensively before collapsing.  The green battle dress is standing, 
facing camera, arms folded again, one foot on the torso of his vanquished 
enemy.  A camouflage-handled battle axe is sunk into the neck of the purple 
battle dress, all the way to the haft.)

Voiceover:  "This sad story has been repeated all too often by 
others.  Don't be embarrassed like them!  Get the only genuine, solid 100% 
Unobtainium battle axe sold in the Marches today and enjoy the pleasure and 
satisfaction of winning all your melees from now on!"

(Video of man in black battle dress.  Helmet is swung back on its hinges so 
we can see the wearer's head.  A good-looking professional model with a 
cr150 haircut and perfect teeth, smiling and basking in the congratulations 
and envious looks from his squadmates who are crowded around him.)

Squadmate 1:  "Wow, Sergeant, I've always heard how great pure Unobtainium 
battle axes are, and now I know someone who _has_ one!"

Squadmate 2:  "Sergeant Jones, you _always_ seem to have the best gear.  No 
wonder you always get the girls when we're on leave."

Squadmate 3 (glumly):  "Well I guess it isn't _me_ who will be killing the 
most enemy in close combat anymore."

(Very tall, distinguished looking man in black battle dress walks up from 
Jones' side, helmet also completely open.  He has a colonel's insignia on 
his chest.)

Colonel:  "Well, Sergeant Jones, I can see _why_ you were just recommended 
for meritorious promotion.  You're the only one here savvy enough to have 
bought a genuine, pure 100% Unobtainium battle axe."

(Colonel pulls his Unobtainium axe from his side.  Close up as he holds it 
in front of his face to admire and proudly display it.)

Colonel:  "It reminds me of the same 100% Unobtainium battle axe I got just 
before I was commissioned 25 years ago and _still_ with me today.  It has 
never let me down."

(Colonel turns to Jones again and puts his free hand on Jones' shoulder 
with a smile.)

Colonel:  "Son, it looks like it will be smooth sailing for you."

(Cut to graphic of axe, captioned with 'The ONLY exclusive pure 100% 
Unobtainium (tm) battle axe!'  Net, comm, and xboat sales information 
listed below that for the market the ad is running in.)

Voiceover:  "Isn't it about time _you_ make the right choice and get the 
only pure 100% Unobtainium battle axe in the Marches?"

(Graphic remains as a translucent overlay.  Behind it we see Jones in full, 
black battle dress, helmet sealed laying waste to one green-suited foe 
after another as they run up to him attacking wildly but he easily 
penetrates each one's armor in one try and they throw their arms up and 
collapse in death.)

(Graphic overlay remains, video cuts to closeup of someone in green battle 
dress, helmet open.  He looks terrified.  He addresses the camera as it 
slowly zooms to close up.)

Terrified Trooper:  "That guy must have an _Unobtainium_ battle axe."

Terrified Trooper (resigned and glum):  "I sure wish _I_ had one of those 
but it's too late, now."

(Camera pulls back to show Terrified Trooper charging Jones as the pile of 
bodies in front of Jones grows.)

--Laning
I almost wrote it up as Chinese forklift spam but for bonded superdense 
battle axes instead.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <20020405.125213.-122687.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:01:18 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
>
> 
> Sometimes there's a lot to be gained if none of your co-
> workers know what your hobbies or prior careers were.

Oh, I like this...

How about a character doing the same?
Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her past, and late in
a game spring it on your group.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:53:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:53:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
Message-ID: <200204052051.DKT03530@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>I never saw anyone who had been shot by a rifle in a major 
>body part walk in, they were wheeled in.
>
Which brings me around full circle.  I remember being told by 
an older NCO not to carry a fighting knife, as he had killed 
numerous men at close enough range to see their last meal on 
their teeth.  But he always used a RIFLE.  From a few feet 
away (CAR-15 on full auto, as he told it).

This man had been in Vietnam, had his lower jaw shot off, and 
walked three days without medical care to be retrieved.  He 
was put out of the service for some time, but after getting 
bone implants was allowed to reenlist in the Army. We were 
all afraid of him (1SGT Lydick).

He said he never, ever killed anyone with a knife OR a 
pistol.  Always the rifle.

Haven't killed anyone, but I've killed a lot of deer. Made 
the mistake "once" of trying to use a .44 Mag on a 180 pound 
whitetail (a bit heavy, yes) near Savannah, GA.  Two hits, 
from 35 yards away, one through the left side into the lungs 
and out the other side, one as he turned (into the diaphragm 
forward and out through the front).  I had to follow him for 
two miles. (240gr Sierra JHP, 24 grains IMR 4227, your 
mileage may differ).

Not one deer that I've shot "once" with a .308 (180 grain 
Nosler Ballistic Tip) has taken more than two steps before 
falling.  And that was up to 150 yards away (no, I don't make 
long range shots on deer).

The .308 is not a "powerhouse" round, but it is a real rifle 
round.

ObTrav: Question about penetration and damage.  There 
is "proof" now that the green tip will penetrate most body 
armor at urban combat ranges BUT, if it hits an unarmored 
person, it is less likely to overpenetrate than standard 9mm 
ball at the same distance.  How does that work?  One would 
think that penetration is penetration, and if it goes through 
a vest, then you aren't even standing there.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204052054.DKT03893@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning writes
<snip nice commercial for unobtainum battle axe>

Might need a handle made of handwavium.  That way, you can 
kill people and do your handwaves in one stroke.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204052058.DKT04431@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  writes
>Oh, I like this...
>
>How about a character doing the same?
>Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her 
>past, and late in a game spring it on your group.
>

I've mostly rolled my characters in private, and I've never 
really shown my sheet to others.

How many of you saw Ronin?  That was a nice part where DeNiro 
asks, "What color was the roof of the boathouse?".  I didn't 
really like the movie too much (seemed aimless), but it was 
Traveller-esque.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several 
places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and 
they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone 
in the place.

Fear and loathing ensues.  At one place, when my first wife 
left, there was a meeting held "about John" without my 
knowledge, to address "a potential problem".  Nothing ever 
happened, and I've never been one to make threats or act out.

When I retired "the rifle" to the local SWAT team (they 
thought it was Christmas), there was much rejoicing at work.

I went out and bought another one.  But it's not like the 
place I work for now really needs to know that.  You really 
are treated as a second-class citizen, just for owning a 
firearm.

I don't know how Tod does it, or Mark, or some of the other 
NFA holders.  People would jump out of their skins here if I 
told them I was going to buy an NFA weapon.

ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because 
people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.



________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <B8D33EA8.376DB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3cadc22c.4909163@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405155359.028b0110@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn points out:
>The problem is that neither side really like the bayonet.  We it comes right
>down to it, the attackers rarely actually thrust into their opponents. Look
>at the reports of the number of actual bayonet wounds in the Napoleonic
>wars, or even the American civil war.  The other side usually runs before it
>gets to that, or the attackers stop short.

Yeah.  If _everyone_ in those mass formations that charged each other 
actually fought when they were in contact with the enemy, casualty lists 
for battles in those eras would have been even more tragic.  And the 
battles would have been a heck of a lot shorter.

It definitely did happen in some units, some times.  But my vision of most 
of those clashes is that most of the infantrymen were busy trying to keep 
anything from stabbing them or shooting them.  More concerned with staying 
out of harm's way than inflicting harm.  Which completely matches human 
nature.  This vision is one of the few ways I can reconcile the statistics 
we have for battles in those times.  How can so many men who are fighting 
each other with nasty weapons be in such close proximity for so long and 
not have most of them mortally wounded or dead?  The fact that there are 
many instances of units actually being slaughtered in close contact only 
serves to make the more usual case stand out more starkly.

Which is a good thing, because I generally have tears pouring silently down 
my face whenever visiting ACW battlefields (I live in Northern Virginia, so 
I've been to a lot of them) or the time I went to Waterloo.  Even more 
death would just make it worse.  So much bravery, so many lives, people 
trying to just survive or people willing to kill and die for their 
beliefs,  the right and the wrong, all wasted.  Funny how so much wasted 
life and folly can make you proud to be in the same human race as them.

Since opposed planetary assaults are usually last on the list of the 
military options in the 57th century, that probably means that most major 
'battlefields' are naval battles fought in space.  What parks and museums 
should we expect from them?

--Laning
"This story shall the good man teach his son,
  And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
  From this day to the ending of the world,
  But we in it shall be remembered..."
--'Henry V' by William Shakespeare


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon points out, then Tod Glenn remarks:
> > I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
> > (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
> > legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
> > their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
> > off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
> > detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
> > of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
> > no no to begin with).
>
>Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.

And (again) what would Freud say?  :->

I doubt most societies in the Imperium will be any different.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:23:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:23:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <198.4e08185.29df6f8d@aol.com>

--part1_198.4e08185.29df6f8d_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, 
anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
  -Ken Murphy-

--part1_198.4e08185.29df6f8d_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_198.4e08185.29df6f8d_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:26:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:26:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>
References: <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net>

At 04:25 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, laning wrote:
>John Kwon points out, then Tod Glenn remarks:
>> > I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
>> > (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
>> > legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
>> > their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
>> > off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
>> > detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
>> > of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
>> > no no to begin with).
>>Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.
>And (again) what would Freud say?  :->

Probably the same thing.  Fear of weapons is a sign of sexual disorder.



>I doubt most societies in the Imperium will be any different.

-------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"The self is not something that one finds. It is
something that one creates." - Thomas Szasz
-------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <198.4e08185.29df6f8d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162512.00a6d940@urbin.net>

Instead of splitting wood, it's designed to crack open combat armor.

Sharper, denser...not to be wielded by the He-Man Muscle Workout dropouts, 
or those without strength augmenting exoskeletons...

At 04:22 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:
>  And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, 
> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
>  -Ken Murphy-

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence.  Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <20020405133914.A19510@4dv.net>
References: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405163130.03930bc0@pop.wizard.net>

Bob Uhl quoteth thusly:
>"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
>[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
>            --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

"Guns don't kill people.  Bullets kill people."  -humorous bumper sticker


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>Yeah.  If _everyone_ in those mass formations that charged 
>each other actually fought when they were in contact with 
>the enemy, casualty lists for battles in those eras would 
>have been even more tragic.

Actually, combat was far deadlier in the age of sword, on a 
percentage basis (not counting that you probably would die of 
infection if merely wounded).

Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.  
Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally 
ensued.

We've talked about it before, but the Dupuy curve shows 
weapon lethality shooting through the ceiling while 
battlefield deaths keep going down.  We're scattering, 
running, etc.  And we're not willing to engage face to face, 
human against human (what is a Predator with Hellfire, 
anyway: a one-way killing machine).

But catch a few thousand men who, after running a few hundred 
yards in armor, are now too exhausted and demoralized to 
properly defend themselves, and....

I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the 
survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of 
war.  People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or 
they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.  
Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their 
army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full 
of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in 
their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything 
except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message 
across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you 
have to do.

ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their 
opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like 
we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?

I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to 
nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough 
missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their 
ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on 
the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay 
waste to an advanced industrial society?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D358F8.3771D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:06 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several
> places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and
> they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone
> in the place.

What can I say.  Oregon.
> 
> Fear and loathing ensues.  At one place, when my first wife
> left, there was a meeting held "about John" without my
> knowledge, to address "a potential problem".  Nothing ever
> happened, and I've never been one to make threats or act out.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <200204052051.DKT03530@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405163356.03932ae0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn, after relating the combat advice of a seriously hard-core First 
Sergeant, then says:
>ObTrav: Question about penetration and damage.  There
>is "proof" now that the green tip will penetrate most body
>armor at urban combat ranges BUT, if it hits an unarmored
>person, it is less likely to overpenetrate than standard 9mm
>ball at the same distance.  How does that work?  One would
>think that penetration is penetration, and if it goes through
>a vest, then you aren't even standing there.

I don't know what green tip exactly means.  Is it more likely to deform 
upon initial penetration?  That will help it to veer, tumble, and otherwise 
do a poor job of continuing straight out the other side.  If it means the 
so-called Teflon bullet, then I've no idea what's going on with 
that.  Slice one open lengthwise and see what you can see about the details 
of its sectional density.  Maybe that will be illuminating.  Or maybe they 
have lower muzzle velocity, but just enough to penetrate standard body 
armor at less than ten yards given their fancy jacketing.

IMTU, you can usually buy all kinds of fancyshmancy ammo and make your gun 
much more effective at the job the ammo is tailored to.  Something that 
Striker and following books got partly into.  But MTU goes way past the 
number of ammo choices that would make a Tractics die hard deliriously 
happy.  Like the man said,  Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018043091.7096.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the 
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of 
> war.
<snip> 
> It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message 
> across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you 
> have to do.

Historically, it didn't work very well.  Wars are not notably more (or less)
common today than in the past (this implies that nothing works very well).
> 
> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their 
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like 
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?

Mostly because MAD is alive and well in the Traveller Universe.  It's not as
easy as with the US and Soviets pointing 10,000 nuclear weapons at one another,
but a fullscale war could easily depopulate everything within a sector of the
spinward marches, on all sides.  It's very hard to prevent a jump-capable fleet
from laying waste to a world.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405164402.03931ec0@pop.wizard.net>

>I don't know how Tod does it, or Mark, or some of the other
>NFA holders.  People would jump out of their skins here if I
>told them I was going to buy an NFA weapon.
>
>ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because
>people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.

John, quit this world and this job and move to Tod's Traveller 
Universe.  You'd love working on the high port at Regina.  :->

You'd probably want to _marry_ Kelly, lol!

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:50:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:50:28 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMENBDJAA.tml@downport.com>

That was only one campaign in Joshua. They didn't do as they were told and
they continue the fight to this day.

Most times you see the winners killing the armies and enslaving/absorbing
the strong while leaving the weak to be plundered by lesser foes. Also very
effective.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

[snip]  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Knife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <200204052051.DKT03530@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D35CA4.3772F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 12:51 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> ObTrav: Question about penetration and damage.  There
> is "proof" now that the green tip will penetrate most body
> armor at urban combat ranges BUT, if it hits an unarmored
> person, it is less likely to overpenetrate than standard 9mm
> ball at the same distance.  How does that work?  One would
> think that penetration is penetration, and if it goes through
> a vest, then you aren't even standing there.


Au Contraire.  Penetration has to do with cross-sectional density, hardness
of the projectile and velocity.  A bullet with good penetration can become
very unstable when transiting media, particularly tissue.  I suspect that
the M855 green tip his weight distribution such that at a given rate of
twist, it starts to yaw severely when it transits into tissue.  IIRC, the
M855 is longer than the old M198 and Mach's equation shows that once the
bullet starts to tumble, projectile length is a dominant factor in bullet
retardation.  In the case of simple armor penetration, the armor material is
not think enough or pliant enough for yawing to be a factor.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405164402.03931ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D35D23.37730%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:51 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

>> ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because
>> people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.
> 
> John, quit this world and this job and move to Tod's Traveller
> Universe.  You'd love working on the high port at Regina.  :->
> 
> You'd probably want to _marry_ Kelly, lol!
> 

"An armed society is a polite society"- RAH

I always found it amusing to see Jeff Cooper quoting Heinlein.

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D34A21.37700%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405165320.039342f0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod, almost presciently, points out:

>And would the users bitch.  oh yes.

Indeed.  I think it's already started.  :->

To all:  I'm glad I advanced the idea here, because we got to have the 
feedback on how unpopular it is before the idea had a chance to waste 
anyone's time further.  And because it's now _me_ you can suspect of being 
a closet totalitarian out to subvert your right to privacy instead of 
thinking our erstwhile Listmom had anything to do with it.

I'd be happy to live with that arrangement, but only because I think I've 
come to know the Listmom well enough to realize there is _no_ danger of 
Listmom doing anything even slightly like not respecting our privacy.  And 
it would only be necessary to go past the firewalling when you want to 
access the archives, which isn't often.  Basically, I'd just go there once, 
FTP all the archives, and have them around on my local hard drive for much 
more quick and convenient use forever afterwards.

But I would be most _unhappy_ with that arrangement if creating it caused a 
rift in the TML community.  Definitely not worth it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <20020405.135958.-122687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:22:21 EST MurfNMurf@aol.com writes:
>    And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, 
> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
>   -Ken Murphy-

The handles made of Penguin bone!
The heads diamond grit plated!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <20020405.135958.-122687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <B8D35F30.3775F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:59 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
>> And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin,
>> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
>> -Ken Murphy-
> 
> The handles made of Penguin bone!
> The heads diamond grit plated!

Wouldn't penguin bone be kind of small.  How about oosik?  Then you get the
pleasure of explaining just where this unique handle material comes from.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>
 <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>

Mark Urbin:
>At 04:25 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, laning wrote:
>>John Kwon points out, then Tod Glenn remarks:
>>> > I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
>>> > (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
>>> > legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
>>> > their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
>>> > off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
>>> > detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
>>> > of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
>>> > no no to begin with).
>>>Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.
>>And (again) what would Freud say?  :->
>
>Probably the same thing.  Fear of weapons is a sign of sexual disorder.

:->  LOL.

I was thinking more like "they like touching their surrogate a great 
deal".  I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival 
response.  Unreasoning and disproportionate fear, and especially 
incapacitating fear, is a different matter and Freud would probably say a 
sign of some disorder.

Anyway, the TML has seen more than enough virtual ink spilled on 
gun-control-related issues.  Let's not go there.  I only meant my Freud 
remark as very light humor.  Please excuse the distraction.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:06:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:06:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <B8D35D23.37730%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405164402.03931ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170735.03959740@pop.wizard.net>

>"An armed society is a polite society"- RAH
>
>I always found it amusing to see Jeff Cooper quoting Heinlein.
>
>Tod

Well, I wouldn't want to learn my politics from either of them.  Too 
dictatorial.  I'll stick to the first for science fiction and the second 
for shooting techniques.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:08:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:08:30 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <B8D358F8.3771D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051404360.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

> on 4/5/02 1:06 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several
> > places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and
> > they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone
> > in the place.

OK, color me clueless, but-- if you go to someone's house on a SHOOTING
trip, wouldn't you expect them to have GUNS?

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh.

> > Fear and loathing ensues.  At one place, when my first wife
> > left, there was a meeting held "about John" without my
> > knowledge, to address "a potential problem".  Nothing ever
> > happened, and I've never been one to make threats or act out.

And this was while you were still married, right?  Man!!!!!

They were concerned about my ex-husband at my workplace for a while, but
that was because they knew the breakup was not friendly. 

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>

>Actually, combat was far deadlier in the age of sword, on a
>percentage basis (not counting that you probably would die of
>infection if merely wounded).

But I do count that.  And, as you go on to point out, the biggest factor of 
all...
>Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.
>Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally
>ensued.
>
>
>ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
>opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
>we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
>I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
>nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
>missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their
>ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on
>the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay
>waste to an advanced industrial society?

Well, we're sortakinda talking about 'Victorians in space' and that sort of 
warfare is barbaric and just bloody unsporting, old boy.  Besides, if all 
the worlds end up getting nuked, where the heck are the players going to play?

In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear 
devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and 
convincing reasons for it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D361DF.37767%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:32 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> Actually, combat was far deadlier in the age of sword, on a
> percentage basis (not counting that you probably would die of
> infection if merely wounded).

I've never seen any good statistics.  Was it really, man-for-man deadlier?
I would have thought most casualties came from the pursuit stage, where
doubtless or progenitors were much more blood thirsty.  An disease was by
far the biggest killer of soldiers, at least until WWII.
> 
> Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.
> Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally
> ensued.

Yes, the pursuit.  What you've been saving your cavalry for.
> 
> We've talked about it before, but the Dupuy curve shows
> weapon lethality shooting through the ceiling while
> battlefield deaths keep going down.  We're scattering,
> running, etc.  And we're not willing to engage face to face,
> human against human (what is a Predator with Hellfire,
> anyway: a one-way killing machine).

I'm going to have to read "Understanding War" again.  It's been too long.

> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> war.  

I'm not sure that's true any more.  Call for no quarter and the enemy is apt
to adopt a DIP attitude and fight to the last man.  Care to fight a hundred
Camerons?  Hard on your won troops morale.

If you treat you captives well, there more of an inducement to surrender.
Than you really only have to polish off the leadership.

> People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.
> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

Well, I wouldn't call the OT an accurate history in the modern sense.  The
greatest empire were forged by armies that accepted the surrender of their
foes, and absorbed their culture.
> 
> It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message
> across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you
> have to do.

When the Germans marched triumphantly through Paris after the Fraco-Prussian
was, that scene was burned into the minds of every Frenchman.  Then followed
Versailles, which made WWII possible.  We win WWII and turn loose the
Marshall plan.  Anyone think we'll be going to war with Germany soon?
> 
> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
> 
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their
> ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on
> the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay
> waste to an advanced industrial society?


Nuke a few worlds and you'll have you enemy screaming "Remember Altair 7" or
whatever.  Start nuking my worlds like that, and I'll decide I can never
make peace with you, that I must fight to the last man, and burn two of your
worlds for every one on mine you destroy.  It's a bloody calculus that's
bound to backfire.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <20020405.141338.-122687.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:58:04 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> 
> I've mostly rolled my characters in private, and I've never 
> really shown my sheet to others.

Right, sheets are private.

I'm talking about a group setting, you're into your game, and out of the
blue [on que with the GM] a persons character reverts to his former
career, be it military, psycho, war flashback, librarian for that matter,
which the group has no idea of until the characters turned loose by a
code word, light, smell, whatever.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D3629C.3776C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 2:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear
> devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and
> convincing reasons for it.

MAD
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:07:07PM -0500
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net> <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020405152015.A19842@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:07:07PM -0500, laning wrote:
>
> I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.

Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
However, it is important not to stare at the enemy because he may sense
the stalker's presence through a sixth sense.
  --US Army Field Manual 21-150 Chapter 7 "Sentry Removal"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <20020405.142533.-122687.3.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 14:03:28 -0800 Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> on 4/5/02 1:59 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com 
> wrote:
> >> And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial  cousin,
> >> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? 
> What?
> >> -Ken Murphy-
> > 
> > The handles made of Penguin bone!
> > The heads diamond grit plated!
> 
> Wouldn't penguin bone be kind of small. 

*** Bonded Superdense Penguin bones ***

> How about oosik? 

Say what??? What's Oosik??

Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <20020405.142533.-122687.3.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <B8D36663.37773%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 2:25 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> 
>> How about oosik?
> 
> Say what??? What's Oosik??
> 

A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
bone from a walrus penis.  See
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html

"I am the walrus.  Koo Koo Kachew!"
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <20020405.143525.-122687.4.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:20:15 -0700 "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:
> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:07:07PM -0500, laning wrote:
> >
> > I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.
> 
> Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
> blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
> strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.
> -- 

With me, being on the giving end is like putting on a warm fuzzy jacket
on a cold day. 
Makes me feel warm all over.
Which is why I sold my rifle.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020406083804.B25929@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear
> devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong
> and convincing reasons for it.

Near-c rock devastation is so much more effective?  <grin,duck,run>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204052240.g35MeAh25949@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

  CT stats are in an old SG (~#50?); the same one with 
the "Killer RV" for CW, IIRC :>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: bayonets
Message-ID: <200204052242.g35Mg9h26355@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
...
>The problem is that neither side really like the bayonet.  We it comes right
>down to it, the attackers rarely actually thrust into their opponents. Look
>at the reports of the number of actual bayonet wounds in the Napoleonic
>wars, or even the American civil war.  The other side usually runs before it
>gets to that, or the attackers stop short.

  But would they have run if the attackers - well, about-to-be-
pursuing infantry - _didn't_ have bayonets?  I suggest not.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:44:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:44:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <B8D35F30.3775F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020405.135958.-122687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405174141.00abfe98@urbin.net>

At 02:03 PM 4/5/2002 -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 4/5/02 1:59 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> >> And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin,
> >> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
> >> -Ken Murphy-
> > The handles made of Penguin bone!
> > The heads diamond grit plated!
>Wouldn't penguin bone be kind of small.  How about oosik?  Then you get the
>pleasure of explaining just where this unique handle material comes from.

Hmm...I would go with K'kree thighbones.



-------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"The self is not something that one finds. It is
something that one creates." - Thomas Szasz
-------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:59:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:59:28 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
References: <20020405.125213.-122687.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CAE2C1B.9030204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> Oh, I like this...
> 
> How about a character doing the same?
> Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her past, and late in
> a game spring it on your group.
>

All the time. In  Eris' Akus Moby pbem all the characters started out 
knowing nothing about each other...we only know what our characters have 
told the others, in some cases that's probably just the tip of the iceberg.

All of us have some secrets, I'm sure.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <memo.290869@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200204052058.DKT04431@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

On Ronin: it's a trick question. There are 2 boathouses.

Don't ask me how I know :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] PBeM  Refs
Message-ID: <B8D36E7D.3778F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Would all the PBeM refs who are running lists on TravellerCentral.com
please add listmom@travellercentral.com to addresses that can post to your
list.

Thanks way I can send administrative messages to all the various list
subscribers.

See the section is list admin: privacy option that starts

"Addresses of members accepted for posting to this list without implicit
approval requirement."


Thanks
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAAEMDCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn says

[Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary weapon of the
infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  number of wounds caused by
bayonets was extremely small.]

That's because if I find someone at the end of my bayonet, they're not 
going to be wounded.  They won't even make it to the aid station.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204052324.g35NOjh06085@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
>Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
...
>>ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
>>opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
>>we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
...
>In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear 
>devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and 
>convincing reasons for it.

  The K'kree seem to be the only major polity that believes in
re-surfacing planets as a matter of policy. There's all sorts
of amateurs that try and compete for the title, but mostly sanity
(MAD) or cultural constraints interfere.

        Kirurform (def'n) - application of massive thermo-nuclear
and cobalt weapon bombardment to a planet inhabited by sapient
carnivores in a traditional K'kree cultural context. Wait 500
years, seed, mow, and colonize.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <B8D361DF.37767%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405173809.0288c1a0@pop.wizard.net>

Following are excerpt from original post by John Kwon and reply by Tod 
Glenn, interspersed with your humble correspondent's remarks.
> > Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.
> > Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally
> > ensued.
>
>Yes, the pursuit.  What you've been saving your cavalry for.
Well, I agree somewhat.  I think that in classical and preclassical times, 
a lot of the vanquished were killed.  But most of them not during 
pursuit.  Most of them were slaughtered as prisoners.

As for our progenitors being more bloodthirsty than us, I doubt that I 
understand your statement quite the way you meant it, Tod.  You've 
elsewhere made plain that you think people tend to be people regardless of 
costume or nation or other things.  Like century.  Perhaps you were saying 
that during the pursuit phase of a battle, our progenitors did more killing 
than we do today during the pursuit phase?  I myself think just as many of 
us today are just as bloodthirsty and genocidal as we ever were in 
yesteryear.  The major difference is that today, the people who are trying 
to stop that sort of thing have more power than they did in the past.

(The good news is that there was a signing of a truce today between the 
rebels in Angola and the government, and the next step is the rebels will 
be turning in their arms.  While I doubt the peace will be perfect, this is 
pretty historic.  They've been fighting for a quarter of a century.  I 
admire anyone who can put the desire for vengeance behind them and live in 
peace with their former enemy.  Good luck to them.)

> >
> > We've talked about it before, but the Dupuy curve shows
> > weapon lethality shooting through the ceiling while
> > battlefield deaths keep going down.  We're scattering,
> > running, etc.  And we're not willing to engage face to face,
> > human against human (what is a Predator with Hellfire,
> > anyway: a one-way killing machine).
>
>I'm going to have to read "Understanding War" again.  It's been too long.
I recommend 'Numbers, Prediction & War' by Dupuy.  He certainly has the 
statistics there, including that charming devil, graphs.  I would provide a 
link to it on Amazon, but it would be best to go to Loren Wiseman's site at 
http://www.io.com/~lkw/ and follow his link to Amazon.  That way he makes a 
little money towards the Free The Storage Bin Seven Fund.  :->


> > I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> > survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> > war.

I can't buy into that at all, John.  Sorry.  Wars seem no more omnipresent 
today than they were in classical times.  The only relationships I would 
draw are the motivation for vengeance that connects the survivors to a mass 
slaughter, and Malthusian effects of reducing population pressure by 
reducing population.  Two forces that relationships that seem in opposition 
to each other.  Even if you massacre _all_ your enemy, even the children 
below age six, you will put yourself high on the rest of the world's 
Enemies To Destroy list.  There will come the day you are on the losing 
side in a war, and genocide is not a precedent that you'd like to have around.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <B8D3629C.3776C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:18 PM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
>on 4/5/02 2:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
>
> > In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear
> > devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and
> > convincing reasons for it.
>
>MAD


But mutual destruction is not assured.  One side would have to win a 
years-long naval campaign in order to deliver its nuclear warheads against 
all the appropriate targets.  Strephon, from the comfort of his Capital 
doesn't fear in the least for his own safety or his families in the event 
of nuclear exchange with the Zhodani.  And the Vargr Extents are such a 
hotheaded place that I cannot be convinced all the nuclear warheads that 
have been in that region for centuries were never used due to its leaders' 
very enlightened view about protecting civilization.  As the Sword Worlders 
should have nuked whoever they were ticked at many times over by now.  And 
the Aslan prize honor well above their own individual lives.  Aside from 
cultural biases toward or away nuclear warfare, there have just been so 
many _individual_ sophonts with their fingers on the button in different 
times and places that it should have happened many times by now.

And in a way, the game's authors agree with that notion.  But only in 
general.  There seems to be a lack of specific worlds that have actually 
been thoroughly nuked over to go with the general history of 
destruction.  Let me go through all the relevant canonical evidence that 
come to my (sputtering and unreliable) memory to see what each one in turn 
makes me think about how MAD affected things.

The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:
The Ancients War
Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani
Presumably the N Interstellar wars
Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night
Very early in Zhodani history
Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) from 
on Darrian

At least I think it was nukes with Darrian.  Or something just as 
devastating, so the MAD concept would still apply.

I can easily accept that enough time has passed since nuclear weapons were 
used by the Ancients that we shouldn't look for reduced populations or 
uninhabitable areas due to them.  But their war is an example of none of 
the sides being deterred by MAD.

The war against the Ziru Sirka should have left marks on various planets 
that would have been mentioned elsewhere in canon.  It is an example of 
just how geographically vast wars between interstellar powers are, and how 
that makes MAD unlikely.

There don't seem to be any worlds still showing mentionable signs of 
nuclear weapons from the N Instellar Wars.  Ditto for examples from the 
Long Night.

Zhodane's problem is so long ago that it is surprising its memory still 
leaves such an indelible impression on Zhodani culture.

Darrian seems to be a good canonical instance of nuclear warfare happening 
specifically somewhere, not just in a general way to somebody.

Oh, there's that nuclear blowup instigated by the Ine Givar but that seems 
more of an isolated terrorist incident than a war.  Or at least nothing 
that you can really apply the concept of MAD to.

I find it hard to believe there are no famous specific examples of worlds 
in the Core sector being "razed" by nukes dropped by one of the Barracks 
Emperors or wannabes.  Civil wars tend to be the least civil, as the old 
saying goes.

If one goes forward with the entire post-Assassination timeline, then it 
sure didn't take any of the sides long to start wiping out anything they 
felt like.  Which makes it harder to believe that MAD was holding other 
sophonts back during all the previous centuries of various conflicts.

This all leads me to believe that MAD isn't an effective strategy against a 
geographically _very_ dispersed opponent.  And that there is a disconnect 
between the number of specific locales in canon that have suffered nuclear 
devastation and the amount of nuclear devastation we're led to believe 
actually has happened.

There are also quite a few canonical instances of balkanized worlds or 
neighboring worlds that are on the brink of total nuclear warfare in the 
current timeline.  If such tensions have careened towards the brink so 
often in current times, how could they have been so consistently avoided 
during the pasts of all the locations that canon visits and shows us.

Hope the above was coherent enough.  I wrote it in rushed bits and pieces 
while running around the house doing other stuff.  Comments and reasoned 
debate welcome, as always.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020405152015.A19842@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>
 <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405192605.02886990@pop.wizard.net>

Bob Uhl quotes me then responds:
> > I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.
>
>Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.

Not sure who you're referring to.  There are people who have unreasoning or 
disproportionate fear of either end, true.  And I think a lot of people 
have a fear of having the things around their abode, particularly if they 
have children.  There are enough statistics about accidents in the home and 
impulsive domestic shootings to make that seem reasonable attitude, even if 
you don't fully agree with or support it.  The point being that it's 
probably a healthy survivial response to avoid having guns in the house 
just like it's a healthy survival response to avoid working in coal mines, 
but YMMV.  I am honestly sympathetic to more than one side in the gun 
control debate, and think we're at the stage where reasonable people can 
agree to disagree.  (BTW, I don't any firearms but I love shooting rifles 
and shotguns.  :-)

Hey.  Wouldn't fear of a bullet-'proof' jacket be more like being afraid of 
a jacket?  You almost fooled me for a minute there.  LOL  :->

There are members of the TML who are also proud (some, even rabid  :-) 
members of the TML Rod & Gun Club.  And there are some who are not.  The 
membership lists are unlikely to ever be altered, and I never meant to get 
into a debate over whether all people who [like/hate] guns are idiotic 
sickos or not.

I think both TML Rod & Gun Clubbers and others who are opposed can all 
agree that _some_ people who own guns, and carry guns around, are moved 
primarily by psychological need to find a surrogate or maybe just plain 
anger, and not by some other need that the rest of us agree or disagree 
about the reasonableness of.  Sometimes a cigar is _not_ just a cigar, and 
sometimes a gun is not just a gun.  Other times, they are.  My Freud remark 
was merely an opportunistic bit of humor intended to give everyone a laugh 
and lighten things up for all who read it.

I've probably prattled on longer than is necessary and will shut up now, 
and post no further on the topic.  Unless it's a joke.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020405.143525.-122687.4.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405194636.028fd650@pop.wizard.net>

>With me, being on the giving end is like putting on a warm fuzzy jacket
>on a cold day.
>Makes me feel warm all over.
>Which is why I sold my rifle.
>
>Turokan

LOL!

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020406083804.B25929@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405194804.028abec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tim Little japed:

>Near-c rock devastation is so much more effective?  <grin,duck,run>

Sounds like you'd better duck and cover.  <G>

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:46:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:46:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405192605.02886990@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D3852E.377A4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 4:41 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

This has wandered off topic.  Please move this to tml-chat or tml-guntech as
appropriate.

Rule of thumb.  There should be an ObTrav.

> Bob Uhl quotes me then responds:
>>> I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.
>> 
>> Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>> blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>> strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.
> 
> Not sure who you're referring to.  There are people who have unreasoning or
> disproportionate fear of either end, true.  And I think a lot of people
> have a fear of having the things around their abode, particularly if they
> have children.  There are enough statistics about accidents in the home and
> impulsive domestic shootings to make that seem reasonable attitude, even if
> you don't fully agree with or support it.  The point being that it's
> probably a healthy survivial response to avoid having guns in the house
> just like it's a healthy survival response to avoid working in coal mines,
> but YMMV.  I am honestly sympathetic to more than one side in the gun
> control debate, and think we're at the stage where reasonable people can
> agree to disagree.  (BTW, I don't any firearms but I love shooting rifles
> and shotguns.  :-)
> 
> Hey.  Wouldn't fear of a bullet-'proof' jacket be more like being afraid of
> a jacket?  You almost fooled me for a minute there.  LOL  :->
> 
> There are members of the TML who are also proud (some, even rabid  :-)
> members of the TML Rod & Gun Club.  And there are some who are not.  The
> membership lists are unlikely to ever be altered, and I never meant to get
> into a debate over whether all people who [like/hate] guns are idiotic
> sickos or not.
> 
> I think both TML Rod & Gun Clubbers and others who are opposed can all
> agree that _some_ people who own guns, and carry guns around, are moved
> primarily by psychological need to find a surrogate or maybe just plain
> anger, and not by some other need that the rest of us agree or disagree
> about the reasonableness of.  Sometimes a cigar is _not_ just a cigar, and
> sometimes a gun is not just a gun.  Other times, they are.  My Freud remark
> was merely an opportunistic bit of humor intended to give everyone a laugh
> and lighten things up for all who read it.
> 
> I've probably prattled on longer than is necessary and will shut up now,
> and post no further on the topic.  Unless it's a joke.
> 
> --Laning
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <20020405.170459.-184723.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Laning

On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 19:46:54 -0500 laning <laning@wizard.net> writes:
> 
> >With me, being on the giving end is like putting on a warm fuzzy 
> >jacket on a cold day. Makes me feel warm all over.
> >Which is why I sold my rifle.
> >
> >Turokan
> 
> LOL!
> 
> --Laning

The US Army trained me well... 

Just don't give me a weapon, I change like Dr. Jeckle [sp] and Mr. Hyde
[sp].

However, if you want me on your team - please do :~)

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020405224405.6103A27A92@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020405164806.00a49df0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:20:15 -0700, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

>Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.

Put me down as afraid of guns, then.  Being in the presence of a real, 
functioning weapon makes me nervous.  In most circumstances, I would refuse 
to even hold one.

To some extent, this is probably because I was never acclimated to them as 
a youth, through hunting or whatever.  But I am similarly nervous around 
anything that can cause death or serious injury, even/especially by 
accident or negligence.  For example, I used to work at a gas station; part 
of my job was refilling propane cylinders from the big tank out back.  I 
hated it.  The stuff was cryo-cold, flammable, explosive, and under high 
pressure.  I was trained for it, but I still hated it.

There's also the "with great power comes great responsibility" angle.  I do 
not want or need the power to maim or kill another human being, or the 
responsibility that necessarily comes with it.  At this time and place, I 
am happier not having to handle guns.  (And yes, I'm fully aware of how 
privileged I am that I've never had to pick up a deadly weapon, let alone 
use one in anger.)

It's a lot harder to kill someone with a jacket.  Definitely not 
impossible, but jackets are not primarily designed to apply deadly 
force.  A firearm is, and I grant them all the respect they are due as a 
result.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] G:Ground Forces queston
Message-ID: <B8D3910E.30E8%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

Hi,

In the Grav vehicle design section, duct fans are listed as having a
positive energy amount, instead of negative.  Is this an error or do they
actually act as power plants?

Thanks,

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:41:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:41:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
References: <20020405194007.A9EDC27A7A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CAE5228.FED9D9B0@earthlink.net>

Thank you, Messers Brick, Scheets, Whipsnade, and all others
who offered an answer to my question.

I recently found the original 1981 character sheet for
my favorite character of all time. He went through SORAG
as part of his pre-game career and had picked up the skill
of "Holster".

While I best remember the item from The Deathworld
Trilogy novels Mr. Whipsnade referred to, I do recall
seeing it for the first time on good ol' Wild Wild West.

Personally, though, I really like the one used by the
Pyrrans in the trilogy.

I really don't see it being practical, given Harrison's
"power holster" had the strength to rip through rough-woven
cloth,  especially since the sidearm it propelled into
the wearer's hand in less than one second, fired a large
caliber HEAP round, and had no trigger guard.

Either a White Dwarf or a Space Gamer mag actually
had CT stats for them. Ah, for the days of being a
Traveller munchkin! <grin>

For those of you who may be interested in these works
by Harry Harrison, may I suggest the following site:

http://www.iol.ie/~carrollm/hh/n01-01.htm

It has some details on the various publications of the
adventures of the trilogy's hero, psionic gambler Jason
dinAlt, including a new trilogy published only for the 
Russian market!  :(

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 18:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri Apr  5 18:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
Message-ID: <001101c1dd0f$c57c7340$f619f7a5@pctframen>

Sorta on topic for this subject, in that it deals with an incident where the
communication delay was vital. As usual, when thinking about Traveller
communication, a pre-20th Century example is useful:

"[Louis Remme, a cowboy] was at Sacramento, California, on Feb. 2nd [1855]
when he received a draft ion the Adams and Company Bank of San Francisco for
twelve thousand dollars. Unfortunately, he delayed cashing the draft until
the following morning. Meanwhile, the San Francisco bank had become a
financial casualty overnight. This failure caused its branch banks,
including the one in Sacramento, to close their doors immediately...
    "But, and his thoughts were racing, there was still a chance. It was a
slim possibility, but worth a try...The San Francisco firm had a branch in
Portland, Oregon, seven hundred miles away. The northern branch would not
close until word reached there from San Francisco; and that word would have
to go by sea, the only direct line of communication with the Columbia River
region at that time. The ship...was scheduled to depart from San Francisco
that morning. Its sailing time was six days. His one long chance was to beat
the boat to Oregon and cash his draft before the Portland bank received the
order to close its doors...."

[Source: _The Rawhide Years_, Glen R Vernam]

Remme made it on time, just beating the boat. The ObTravs are interesting;
presumably, buy/sell orders to a brokerage would operate in a similar
manner, perhaps allowing the PCs to beat their own order. Situations similar
to the one Renne faced could still crop up, especially in marginal systems
that only get official mail once a week.

(Of course, the probability that a modern common-stock corporation could
operate given Traveller communications is slim, but what the hey...)

Fred "Hell for Leather" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 18:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri Apr  5 18:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <3CAE2C1B.9030204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020406023936.E756627A91@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/05/02 at 03:58 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

>> Oh, I like this...
>> 
>> How about a character doing the same?
>> Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her past, and late in
>> a game spring it on your group.
>>

>All the time. In  Eris' Akus Moby pbem all the characters started out
> knowing nothing about each other...we only know what our characters
>have  told the others, in some cases that's probably just the tip of
>the iceberg.

>All of us have some secrets, I'm sure.

That statement is true...or false. <weg>

I will say that some of the juiciest secrets were being carried by
characters that have been orphaned. Of the "cousins and partners"
we've had Martan and Sarge disappear in a misjump, Sir Jason leave to
direct a play, and April simply not disembark from the ship when it
reached Kurzu. But, Ricardo doesn't have any secrets does he? <g>

Eris


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
References: <20020405194005.BABCE27A79@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <007601c1dd18$0a3ce0c0$945d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while
> desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to
> perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.

Yep.  My WWII veteran friend has mentioned how when his company were just
about out of ammunition and surrounded, they were preparing to fix their
bayonets and die.  Fortunately for them, relief came just in the nick of
time.  They fired their last ammunition at the Japanese as they retreated.

> From: Matthew Bond
> The principal aim of a bayonet charge is to cause the flight or surrender
> of the defenders of a position.

This seems to have been the point of a bayonet charge my friend described to
me.  The charge was about thirty metres long, incidentally - more or less
how far you could see through the jungle.

> As soon as the initial terror subsided he (and now I can't recall exactly
> which) either threw down his weapon and ran for his life, or threw down
> his weapon and surrendered.

An account of an Australian bayonet charge in the official WWII histories
describe five armed Japanese soldiers just standing around squealing while a
single Australian soldier stabbed them to death.  Clearly, shock happens.

> To quote Corporal Jones in Dad's Army... "Cold Steel, Sir. They don't
> like it up 'em!"

A comment in the Australian histories suggest that the Japanese forces
didn't like facing Australian bayonet charges.  Apparently, all that
practice shouting "Banzai!" didn't actually translate into a willingness to
stand their ground against some other mad sod with a big knife on a stick.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:03:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:03:51 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <007701c1dd18$0af3fbc0$945d8690@computer>

> From: Bruce Johnson 
> One sentence that engenders fear and panic in every starship owner's
> heart: 'Bwap compliance inspector.'

Would it help if your ship's accountant was a Virushi?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] FF&S Help
In-Reply-To: <001101c1dd0f$c57c7340$f619f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAAEGNCOAA.redroach@pobox.com>

Does anyone know of a good FF&S spreadsheet for designing aircraft?

Or even better does anyone out there want to help me design a VTOL craft
using FF&S?

I have some basic specs, picture, etc...
I just HELP

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
Message-ID: <200204060325.DLH01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Or Unobtanium, maybe.  I seem to remember some science 
fiction a ways back talking about firing osmium needles at 
hypervelocities...

http://www.sciencenews.org/20020406/fob2.asp

So much for diamond coating of metals.  Maybe that axe that 
Laning's character wants to carry is coated with osmium.

ObTrav:  Giving things names like "bonded superdense" might 
be OK while I'm designing Striker vehicles, but I am always 
wondering, "superdense what?"  It's nice to know that I could 
extrapolate and say, "it's osmium, silly".
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:34:02 2002
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <3ca99b9a.4755858@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20405.185820.1a4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I want an L5 space station, then I can not only declare independence,
> but address communications to world leaders as "foolish
> Earth-beings!".
>
> And if anybody objects, well, I'm at the top of the gravity well and
> there are lots of rocks in space...

Not handy to L5. And especially not in quantities sufficient to defend
you against the folks on Earth after you send the *first* one at them.
That overgrown tin can is a lot more vulnerable than Earth.

You could hurt Earth. They could *kill* you. 

Say a pattern of nukes a thousand or so km from you. That'd overload
the solar flare shielding by quite a bit. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:37:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Trista)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:37:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
References: <200204060325.DLH01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAE6BBC.D28B1C82@the-spa.com>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> Or Unobtanium, maybe.  I seem to remember some science
> fiction a ways back talking about firing osmium needles at
> hypervelocities...

Hmmm, that sounds like the book 'Forlorn Hope'; mercenaries use
something called a 'cone bore rifle', the barrel of which is supposedly
of diamond and fires an osmium needle which is compressed as it travels
through the barrel and reaches hypervelocites. Had them in cannon size
too as I recall.

Now I have to go hunt up my copy and check. LOL Curiosity.

Siani
-- 
"Virisque Adquirit Eundo"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <200204060325.DLH01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3B0C0.377EB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 7:25 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Or Unobtanium, maybe.  I seem to remember some science
> fiction a ways back talking about firing osmium needles at
> hypervelocities...

David Drake, IIRC, in his stories


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <3CAE6BBC.D28B1C82@the-spa.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3B11B.377EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 7:30 PM, Trista at asmahan@the-spa.com wrote:

> Hmmm, that sounds like the book 'Forlorn Hope'; mercenaries use
> something called a 'cone bore rifle', the barrel of which is supposedly
> of diamond and fires an osmium needle which is compressed as it travels
> through the barrel and reaches hypervelocites. Had them in cannon size
> too as I recall.

That goes back to the old Gerlich AT guns of WWII.  I think the squeeze bore
has pretty much fallen out of favor, replaced by the discarding sabot.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 20:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 20:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] pilot specs
Message-ID: <20020405.205600.-3247.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hi all,

This is for anyone who might know.

What are the real life size minimum and maximum hight requirements for a
combat fighter pilot?
Obviously if you can't sit in the seat, or reach the pedals fully pressed
down you're out.

ObTrav:
These requirements will effect fighter cockpits for world based craft,
and possibly starship fighters and small craft.

How would this effect pilot skills in the 57th century?
Would a GM allow a short, or very large character in the pilot seat?
Would it be safe?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <005f01c1dd29$f7b338c0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "laning" <laning@wizard.net>
> The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:
> The Ancients War
> Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani
> Presumably the N Interstellar wars
> Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night
> Very early in Zhodani history
> Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) from
> on Darrian
>
> At least I think it was nukes with Darrian.  Or something just as
> devastating, so the MAD concept would still apply.
>
> Darrian seems to be a good canonical instance of nuclear warfare happening
> specifically somewhere, not just in a general way to somebody.

The cause of the Darrian Collapse wasn't nuclear weapons, it was the
Maghiz... the after effects of an innocent science project to survey the
Primary Star of Darrian, that inadvertently caused it to undergo a Nova-like
hiccup...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com> <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <2b1tauotjjqq4c8v1v1vn5isvpbofrd549@4ax.com>

On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 10:51:56 -0800, Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

>on 4/5/02 9:22 AM, KevinC at kevinc@cnetech.com wrote:
>> Tod,
>>=20
>> Will the new TML archive be accessible by web search engines and
>> bots/spiders?
>>=20
>> If yes, then you need to do something to protect the email addresses =
of
>> anyone whose posts are in the archive.
>>=20
>> Otherwise "harvesters" will grab them all, and spam the good ( still
>> active) ones.
>
>I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

Thank you for thinking of doing so.  I wonder if it might be easiest
to simply remove the actual e-mail address and leave the user's name.
=46or instance, on this reply, all the addresses which would be seen
would be "Tod Glenn" and "KevinC".  Neither would be much risk from a
harvester standpoint and yet they would easily be plainly read.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020405231806.02bc3a70@mail.earthlink.net>


So is the Kknife a special K'kree weapon? :)

Jimmy Simpson                        nimrodd@mail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405212730.024a9190@mail.verizon.net>

Hmm, my first reply got bounced, so here 'tis again.  :-)

Hi David,

Check out:

http://home.earthlink.net/~backslash/

Best regards,

Charles McKnight 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:30:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:30:06 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <000b01c1dc7a$655e8a60$f000a8c0@imogen>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020405224838.04445dd0@rollanet.org>

At 04:59 PM 4/4/02, you wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> > I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor
> > training.
>
>I used to work a a company that tried for (and got) ISO 9000/9001
>certification: it was easy-peasy!
>
>1) Have a documented procedure for everything
>2) Make sure all staff know where the latest  versions  of  those
>    documents are (ie. where on the PC server)
>
>The fact that we didn't actually follow those  procedures  (close
>scrutiny would have revealed they were unworkable anyhow)  didn't
>seem to matter.
>
>Its just a case of understanding the game.
>

Funny, the auditor who is checking the company I work for keeps wanting to 
see actual proof that we are following our procedures.


--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>

From: laning <laning@wizard.net>

     "The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:"

Sir,

     My take on your list:

     "The Ancients War"

     Perhaps.  Gramps and the Kiddies and the Grandkiddies had access to 
devices that make nukes look like waterballoons.  They still may have used 
them, no weapon is really ever obsolete.

     "Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani."

     Canon is littered with references to the Vilani "way" of war being 
brutally pragmatic.  IMHO, the Ziru Sirka would have used nukes early and 
often.  Then again, I have trouble believing the canonical description of 
the Interstellar War anyway.
     GT:RoF has the Vilani visiting Terra after the 2nd War.  These 
representatives of the ZS must have been either brain dead or traitors not 
to bring an accurate report back to Dingir from Sol.  After being shown a 
~10 billion humans on an industrialized world, the "brutally pragmatic" 
Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt.
     All the explanations about population levels, internal Vilani politics, 
blah, blah, blah, are just liberal doses of handwavium.  With the 
superioroty in maneuver drives and missile tech that RoF claims for them, 
the Ziro Sirka would have, could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it 
glowed.

     "Presumably the N Interstellar wars."

     The ZS certainly, "scorched earth" tactics during their long retreat.  
The TC maybe, after all they want to colonize and/or rule.  No need to mess 
up the planets you're taking over.

     "Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night."

     Agreed.  See the "Sack of Gasikan(?)", a world heavily nuked by the 
Vargr that recovers to found and lead a genocidal minded, anti-Vargr pocket 
empire.

     "Very early in Zhodani history."

     No.  Two Dark Ages in Zho history, one when a low tech "universal" 
empire collapses, ala Rome, China, etc. and another when space missions to 
Zhodane's moon brings back a dormant Ancient bio-weapon.  No nuke exchanges 
mentioned or intimated at all.
     This doesn't mean that the Zho's haven't used them on occasion 
elsewhere in the Consulate.

     "Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) 
from on Darrian."

     No.  The Maghurz(sp) was the result of two experiments involving Tanis, 
Darrian's primary, that horribly interacted with each other.  Pre-contact 
Darrian history was suprisingly peaceful, for humans.

     A few you forgot to mention;
     Kuzu - The Aslan's Second World War was nuclear, the Third one, which 
the arrival of "Pathfinder" prevented, was going to nuclear too.  Shame it 
didn't happen.
     Asmodeus - A balkanized Zho world in the Marches had a nuclear exchange 
sometime in the 1090's.  Guess the Thought Police were all out getting 
doughnuts.
     Unknown - IIRC, there's a balkanized world mentioned somewhere in canon 
that went nucelar.  The population there lived in domes and levels took 
quite a nose dive before the Marines could intervene.

     "This all leads me to believe that MAD isn't an effective strategy
against a geographically _very_ dispersed opponent."

     Perhaps, or maybe it's just damper technology.  I don't have Striker to 
hand, but IIRC dampers pretty much draw the fangs out of nukes.  How 
easy/hard would it be for PDFs to maintain damper coverage for an entire 
world?  Could such coverage be projected from orbit by naval vessels?  If 
so, the 3I could show up above some balkanized world with a nasty squabble 
taking place and declare a "no-nukes" zone with a couple of orbitting 
escorts.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3DF55.37819%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 10:59 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:

> "The Ancients War"
> 
> Perhaps.  Gramps and the Kiddies and the Grandkiddies had access to
> devices that make nukes look like waterballoons.  They still may have used
> them, no weapon is really ever obsolete.
> 
[snip]

Then of course we haven't considered nuclear dampers.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3B11B.377EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CAE6BBC.D28B1C82@the-spa.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406023413.0396cdf0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn says:
>That goes back to the old Gerlich AT guns of WWII.  I think the squeeze bore
>has pretty much fallen out of favor, replaced by the discarding sabot.

Whoa.  Thanks for the reminder.  I'd completely forgotten about those 
things, it's been so long.  Yeah, I was always pretty dubious about them.

The only ObTrav I can think of is that there is no ObTrav for the simple 
reason that firearms design in the 57th century has long since evolved to 
be as good as it can possibly get and every theoretical new twist has 
already been examined, and tried, and tried again.  Local conditions may 
vary from world to world, but I am talking about overall.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
In-Reply-To: <001101c1dd0f$c57c7340$f619f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406024845.0396aa80@pop.wizard.net>

Fred Ramen quotes a fascinating story about a Old Time Westerner getting 
700 miles in six days to a bank branch before the bank learned from its 
headquarters that it was kaput:

>(Of course, the probability that a modern common-stock corporation could
>operate given Traveller communications is slim, but what the hey...)

Stock exchanges on each world will tend to only trade shares of 
corporations that do their primary business in that system.  Megacorps will 
trade at a glacial pace compared to something like our own New York Stock 
Exchange.  You will make an appointment to meet with your buy/seller of 
Ling Standard Products, for instance.  And the buyer will be required to 
sign some forms to prove they've done a due diligence study of the risks, 
blah, blah.

Also, the megacorps and other star-spanning corporations will set up local 
subsidiaries for each world where they have significant operational 
presence or financial stake and the shares traded on the exchanges of that 
world will only be shares of the subsidiary, not the owning megacorp.

That's my fast answer.  Haven't pondered it beyond that.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <005f01c1dd29$f7b338c0$52200050@matt>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406025432.03968d20@pop.wizard.net>

Matt Bond sets the record straight:

>The cause of the Darrian Collapse wasn't nuclear weapons, it was the
>Maghiz... the after effects of an innocent science project to survey the
>Primary Star of Darrian, that inadvertently caused it to undergo a Nova-like
>hiccup...

Thank you, sir.  I knew it was much more exotic than nuclear warfare.  And 
I completely got wrong the angle of it being a war of any kind.  Yes, it 
seems to me that the Maghiz thing left a lot of speculation about the 
Grandfather or someone deciding not to let anyone go past TL 15.  If you 
prefer the secret conspiracy view of things, that is.  Or it could have 
been just one more example of mankind's hubris being too self destructive, 
like Ikaros having the wax melt on his wings.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 00:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406030132.03931080@pop.wizard.net>

Larsen Whipsnade very helpfully responded to and improved my list of 
nuclear warfare and MAD related canon:
<<<snip most of it>>>
>    Asmodeus - A balkanized Zho world in the Marches had a nuclear 
> exchange sometime in the 1090's.  Guess the Thought Police were all out 
> getting doughnuts.

Doughnuts, LOL!


>     Unknown - IIRC, there's a balkanized world mentioned somewhere in 
> canon that went nucelar.  The population there lived in domes and levels 
> took quite a nose dive before the Marines could intervene.
>
>     "This all leads me to believe that MAD isn't an effective strategy
>against a geographically _very_ dispersed opponent."
>
>     Perhaps, or maybe it's just damper technology.  I don't have Striker 
> to hand, but IIRC dampers pretty much draw the fangs out of nukes.  How 
> easy/hard would it be for PDFs to maintain damper coverage for an entire 
> world?  Could such coverage be projected from orbit by naval vessels?  If 
> so, the 3I could show up above some balkanized world with a nasty 
> squabble taking place and declare a "no-nukes" zone with a couple of 
> orbitting escorts.
I brought it up a little while ago with a friend who was over for face to 
face gaming.  His immediate reaction was "nuclear dampers".  He felt the 
same way I do about things being far too dispersed for MAD to make enough 
sense.  Well, actually his first reaction was "It's against the Imperial 
Code of War, nobody would ever get away with it" but then I explained my 
concern wasn't keeping order internally but grand strategy between nations 
at the level of interstellar empires.

I grabbed my trusty old (first edition, so no power points) Book 5 - High 
Guard and we looked up nuclear dampers.  First available at TL 12.  You 
have to get all the way from TL 6 or 7 to TL 12 without them, but still 
dealing nukes.  Repulsor bays come in at TL 10, and that will help a tiny 
bit.  Jump drives start at TL 9, so you have to get from 9 to 12 with the 
capability for interstellar delivery of nukes.  It would have been such a 
good answer too.  IIRC, either MT or second edition High Guard or maybe 
both did do some substantial revisions to TLs for weapons and 
screens.  Perhaps that will provide some support to the nuclear dampers 
theory.  But I don't think so.

The search continues, I guess.

--Laning



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 00:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 00:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEFOCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20406.005223.1e4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The weapon I'm trying to figure out is an equalizer for pedestrians.
> Anything that will actually stop or otherwise neutralize a moving vehicle
> that is about to violate a crosswalk will have a danger space that includes
> the pedestrian (like a LAW, M203, Panzerfaust, etc.) at typical engagement
> ranges.  Anything safe for the pedestrian will not actually stop the vehicle
> before impact -- the .44 magnum will shut down the engine, but the car will
> keep on rolling.  Many weapons will neutralize the driver, but again, the
> car will keep going.  It's a poser.

You need a personal force shield with the ability to isolate internal
and external inertial frames. Or else the ability to "lock" to bedrock
on impact.

I suspect it'd be "simpler" to do the former. But not by a lot.

Basicly, any momentum transfer to the volume within the field occurs
*uniformly*. So, since the forces are applied equal to all particles,
they don't have any apparent effect (much like it doesn't matter how
strong the gravity is *while* you are falling, just when you hit :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 01:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 01:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE9C2B.34116%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20406.005748.6n2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/1/02 10:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>> 
>> I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that difficult to
>> build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate power
>> battery.  
>
> I have yet to be convinced that such things will work, and be at all
> effective.  Particularly as the  strength of burst will be inversely
> proportional to the to the square of the distance.  Has anyone actually seen
> a demonstration where this works?  It should be rather easy to test.

The effects *depend* on non-linear effects. And the strength at a
distance depends a lot on the orientation.

Also, remember, the effect is *not* due to the strength of the field
(well, not entirely). It's due to the sudden *change* in field strength
too. 

> Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical martial
> arts 'death touch'.

I wouldn't expect one to have any great range. But if you can hide it
in a brief case, 10 meters is *plenty*.

>> I've a few comments and questions here:
>> 
>> 1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this
>> shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be
>> overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP?
>
> Gauss weapons won't need any complex and delicate circuitry if they're
> anything like railguns.  I don't expect them to be vulnerable to EMP anymore
> than a 1950s Chevy would be.

Yeah, I meant to comment on that myself.

"coilguns" will need some high speeds switchging circuitry. But
frankly, the power levels and timescales are such that EMP would be
minor compared to the fields inside the weapon every time it "cycled". 

"Railguns" don't have any circuitry more complicated than a light
switch. *NO* electronics in the weapon aside from any sighting gear.
And the magnetic fields the thing uses would make them have to be
mostly EMP prof anyway. 

EMP would affect them about as much as it'd affect a nail stuck to a
strong magnet. And for similar reasons. The *local* field would far
exceed the EMP.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 01:13:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 01:13:06 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701795.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20406.010602.9U3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn writes:
>> on 4/1/02 2:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
>> > 
>> > Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In
>> > fact, gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing
>> > the thing will short out all of its electronics, not to mention other
>> > nearby electronics. 
>> 
>> What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?
>
> Presumably, one strong, sharp pulse lasting roughly the length of time it 
> takes
> for a bullet to go the length of the barrel.  Not immediately inclined to
> figure out the total emitted energy, but I rather doubt that it's small.

It'd better be. Otherwise the gun is wasting energy emitting the noise.
The magnetic field will be constant. The electrical current flow is DC.
Though a rather sharp pulse, which may have a fair amount of ringing.

> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.

I have trouble picturing a coilgun as being *practical* in a man
portable size. Railguns are almost as bad, but at least you don't need
to switch all that power *repeatedly* and with precise timing dozens of
times per shot.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406025432.03968d20@pop.wizard.net>
References: <005f01c1dd29$f7b338c0$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020406065801.009f48d0@mindspring.com>

At 02:57 AM 4/6/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Matt Bond sets the record straight:
>
>>The cause of the Darrian Collapse wasn't nuclear weapons, it was the
>>Maghiz... the after effects of an innocent science project to survey the
>>Primary Star of Darrian, that inadvertently caused it to undergo a Nova-like
>>hiccup...
>
>Thank you, sir.  I knew it was much more exotic than nuclear warfare.  And 
>I completely got wrong the angle of it being a war of any kind.  Yes, it 
>seems to me that the Maghiz thing left a lot of speculation about the 
>Grandfather or someone deciding not to let anyone go past TL 15.  If you 
>prefer the secret conspiracy view of things, that is.  Or it could have 
>been just one more example of mankind's hubris being too self destructive, 
>like Ikaros having the wax melt on his wings.

I think the Maghiz was just another example of the Law of Unintended 
Consequences.  Better known as Murphy's Law.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204061516.DME00009@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug writes
>I think the Maghiz was just another example of the Law of 
>Unintended Consequences.  Better known as Murphy's Law.
>

BTW, I went looking around the web, and found another library 
data site, which had a bit on the Maghiz and the project that 
caused it.

http://www.seemann.ms/library/

Hopefully the owner of that site is on the TML somewhere...
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Combat Armor & Battle Dress
Message-ID: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>

--part1_19d.46939d.29e06ca1_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Hi,
   While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I discovered 
that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game (Imperial 
Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of the different 
models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
   Could someone help me out?
   Thanks :)
  -Ken Murphy-

--part1_19d.46939d.29e06ca1_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I discovered that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of the different models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Could someone help me out?
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_19d.46939d.29e06ca1_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>

From: laning <laning@wizard.net>

     "...looked up nuclear dampers.  First available at TL 12."

Sir,

     Well, that settles that theory.

     "You have to get all the way from TL 6 or 7 to TL 12 without them, but 
still dealing nukes.  Jump drives start at TL 9, so you have to get from 9 
to 12 with the capability for interstellar delivery of nukes."

     So until TL 12, MAD and geographical/astrographic dispersal are the 
trumps, usually.

     "It would have been such a good answer too.  IIRC, either MT or second 
edition High Guard or maybe both did do some substantial revisions to TLs 
for weapons and screens.  Perhaps that will provide some support to the 
nuclear dampers theory.  But I don't think so."

     The answer is a melange of MAD, dispersal, and dampers.  There are 
rarely single reasons for any given happenstance.
     I wonder, what if TL 12 is when dampers are small enough to allow them 
to be installed aboard ships?  Or the power requirements are finally 
"doable" in a hull?  Prior to TL 12, dampers could be massive, strategic 
systems that require multiple installations and oodles of generators.  At TL 
12, the technology gets miniaturized enough to be installed aboard ships, 
sort of like radar between the late 1930s and early 1940s.
     It's still a handwave, though.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 09:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20406.010602.9U3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 1:06 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.
> 
> I have trouble picturing a coilgun as being *practical* in a man
> portable size. Railguns are almost as bad, but at least you don't need
> to switch all that power *repeatedly* and with precise timing dozens of
> times per shot.

The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 09:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 09:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052324.g35NOjh06085@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <B8D46F07.37842%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 3:28 PM, Steven Hudson at shudson@lightspeed.ca wrote:

> 
> The K'kree seem to be the only major polity that believes in
> re-surfacing planets as a matter of policy. There's all sorts
> of amateurs that try and compete for the title, but mostly sanity
> (MAD) or cultural constraints interfere.
> 

I would expect that when it came to the K'kree, their opponents would adopt
the same attitude.  Something like the US policy on chemical weapons. "No
first use".  But if you use them, will give it right back and in spades.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 09:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 09:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn says:

[The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.]

Yes, and today, the power supply is much larger than can be carried.
We can get you a small battery made with an unobtanium core.

One problem that I see with a lot of sci-fi weapons is recoil. It's
a really nice idea to have a weapon that can fire a projectile at
4000 meters per second, but it's unlikely that we'll be able to
hold onto the weapon without a handwave generator.

In Traveller, I like to see weapons filling unique and obvious niches.

Gauss weapons are silent, and better at penetration than the ordinary 
slugthrower.  However, I feel that there should be a recoil penalty,
especially on full auto.  There are definitely recoil limits for 
humans (not just pain, but actually hitting something).

The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
from Book 4.  How about YTU?

In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a 
good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.

ObTrav: A Gauss weapon should be a better penetrator than a laser,
but the laser has no recoil.  I'm still trying to figure out the 
handwave that allows a plasma bolt to go more than a few centimeters
out of the barrel.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 11:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Seemann)
Date: Sat Apr  6 11:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E002330A27@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AA@mail.ahead.com>

Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:16:10 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

> BTW, I went looking around the web, and found another library 
> data site, which had a bit on the Maghiz and the project that 
> caused it.
> 
> http://www.seemann.ms/library/
> 
> Hopefully the owner of that site is on the TML somewhere...

I am, and BTW desperately trying to get time to do a major rewrite of
the site...

Did you want to ask me something?

Mark Seemann
mark@seemann.ms

"No matter how far you've come in the wrong direction - turn back!"
- Arabian proverb


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204061914.DML02410@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Mark Seemann" says
>
>I am, and BTW desperately trying to get time to do a major 
>rewrite of the site...
>
>Did you want to ask me something?
>

We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your 
site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which 
was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on 
the whole series of events?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 11:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr  6 11:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <B8D46F07.37842%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204052324.g35NOjh06085@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020406114851.009f8950@mindspring.com>

At 09:23 AM 4/6/02 -0800, you wrote:
>I would expect that when it came to the K'kree, their opponents would adopt
>the same attitude.  Something like the US policy on chemical weapons. "No
>first use".  But if you use them, will give it right back and in spades.

The actual policy is overwhelming response.  Hit is with *one* WMD, and we 
unload on you.  During the Persian Gulf war, the CIA found out that 
Saddam  was planning on using his chemical arsenal to slow down the units 
invading Kuwait. He was told, through neutral nations, that if he did that, 
every damn shack in Iraq would get a 30 kiloton kiss.

I imagine the Imperial policy towards the K'kree is similar..  "You go off 
on a single human world, and we will use you for Astroburger meat.  The Two 
Thousand Worlds will become the 2000 square feet, 'cause that is all your 
species will need.  What's worse, we'll let the Hivers in to play with you."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 12:01:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 12:01:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406145922.00cb7ee0@192.168.0.1>

At 12:41 PM 4/6/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Tod Glenn says:
[snip]
>The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
>from Book 4.  How about YTU?

I think people like Snubs because they have HEAP & HE ammo.


>In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a
>good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
>been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.

T4 has 'em.


----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  "When you see
a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not
wait until he has struck to crush him."
--- Franklin D. Roosevelt
----------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 12:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Seemann)
Date: Sat Apr  6 12:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
In-Reply-To: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E002330A28@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com>

Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:14:38 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

> We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your 
> site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which 
> was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on 
> the whole series of events?

While I can't remember the sequence of event, my library data tells me
there were indeed two projects: The Abh and Udh projects.

These library entries were taken from the Classic Traveller Alien Module
8: Darrians, but I can't remember the rest of the story. However, if you
really want me to, I can go look it up.

Mark Seemann
mark@seemann.ms

"No matter how far you've come in the wrong direction - turn back!"
- Arabian proverb


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 13:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 13:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B8D4A39D.37862%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 9:41 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@comcast.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn says:
> 
> [The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.]
> 
> Yes, and today, the power supply is much larger than can be carried.
> We can get you a small battery made with an unobtanium core.

If one follows the trend in batteries, they are becoming smaller and lighter
for the same power, and thus by extrapolation, batteries of the same size
and weight are becoming more powerful.
> 
> One problem that I see with a lot of sci-fi weapons is recoil. It's
> a really nice idea to have a weapon that can fire a projectile at
> 4000 meters per second, but it's unlikely that we'll be able to
> hold onto the weapon without a handwave generator.

But while projectile energy is a function of the mass of the projectile and
velocity squared, recoil is more a function of momentum.  A small,
lightweight projectile of high velocity has less felt recoil than than a
slower, more massive projectile of the same energy. Plus, with gauss
weapons, there is no added effect of the escaping gasses to add to recoil.

In a conventional firearm free recoils is defined as:

RE= Mg *((MbVb+MpVp)/Mg)^2 in Joules

where:  Mg is the mass of the gun
        Vg is the mass of the bullet
        Mp is the mass of the propellant
        Vp is the velocity of the propellant.  Typically
        noted as a constant (1200 m/s)

Let look at a gauss weapon versus conventional weapon.  In this case we'll
examine a 7.62x51mm rifle versus a gauss version with the same velocity and
bullet weight.

7.62x51mm M1A rifle
        Mass:               4.17 kg
        Bullet Mass:        0.01069 kg
        Bullet Velocity:    807.72 m/s
        Propellant mass:    0.00279 kg

for a free recoil energy of 34.3 J (about 25 ft-lbs)

The gauss version of this weapon generated only 17.7 J of free recoil (only
13 ft-lbs)

The 7.62x51mm has 3593 J (2650 ft-lbs) of energy at the muzzle.  Note that
this is not the energy actually delivered to the target.  This can be
derived from Mach's equation of retardation id we assume non-expanding
(ball) ammunition.  The amount of velocity lost in transiting the target
will allow us to calculate the total energy transferred.

Now lets look at Book 4's Gauss rifle:

Gauss Rifle
        Mass:               3.5 kg
        Bullet Mass:        0.004 kg
        Bullet Velocity:    1500 m/s

For a free recoil of 10.2 J (7.5 ft-lbs)
Muzzle energy is 4500 J (3,300 ft-lbs)

even though the gauss rifle is 500 g less massive than the M1A almost 1000
joules more muzzle energy and one third the free recoil energy

As a note, compare this with the free recoil of the M16 with a mass of 3.2
kg.  The 3.56 g (55 gn) bullet at 1000 m/s (3300 f/s) generates 14.9 J (11
ft-lbs) of free recoil energy with 1800 J (1330 ft-lbs) of energy at the
muzzle.


> 
> In Traveller, I like to see weapons filling unique and obvious niches.
> 
> Gauss weapons are silent, and better at penetration than the ordinary
> slugthrower.  

But gauss weapons are not silent, at least not in atmosphere.  They break
the sound barrier, and ballistic crash is a very. large component of firearm
noise.  MM booboo'd on this one.

> However, I feel that there should be a recoil penalty,
> especially on full auto.  There are definitely recoil limits for
> humans (not just pain, but actually hitting something).
> 
> The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
> from Book 4.  How about YTU?

Rarely seen except in special circumstances.  The range is just too limited.
Also, the penetration is just too goo.  The penetration of a HEAP round is
directly proportional to its diameter. A 100mm diameter projectile is just
not going to have much of a 'jet', and not much material to form the
penetrator.  It's a simple matter of physics.
> 
> In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a
> good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
> been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.
> 
> ObTrav: A Gauss weapon should be a better penetrator than a laser,
> but the laser has no recoil.  I'm still trying to figure out the
> handwave that allows a plasma bolt to go more than a few centimeters
> out of the barrel.

See my note above.  The gauss rifle generates a mere 10 J of free recoil
energy 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 13:33:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr  6 13:33:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
References: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <001801c1ddb2$e0895ba0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Seemann" <mark@seemann.ms>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 9:42 PM
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs


> Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:14:38 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> wrote:
>
> > We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your
> > site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which
> > was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on
> > the whole series of events?
>
> While I can't remember the sequence of event, my library data tells me
> there were indeed two projects: The Abh and Udh projects.
>
> These library entries were taken from the Classic Traveller Alien Module
> 8: Darrians, but I can't remember the rest of the story. However, if you
> really want me to, I can go look it up.
>
> Mark Seemann
> mark@seemann.ms

As I recall, one project was going to use two interfering beams of some type
or radiation to probe the interior of the Star, and the other was to use a
probe with some kind of ablative heat shielding.

Both projects were being conducted semi-secretly and independently. That is
to say that neither team was particularly aware of the other project.

Both projects happened to reach their final stage at the same time, and each
performed its experiment simultaneously.

Unfortunately the intersecting beams caused a reaction with the trail of by
products from the probes ablating heat shielding, the result of which was a
stellar 'burp' of devastating proportions in the Darrian system. The effects
of the pulse continued out into space, reaching the surrounding Darrian
colonies at lightspeed a few years later. Despite the precautions that had
been taken  by the colonies in the intervening period the effects were still
very serious, as much of the technical and manufacturing base had been
located on Darrian itself. Some of the larger colonies survived, but the
ability to construct starships had been lost, and only a few jump capable sh
ips had been spared devastation. after a few years of trying to maintain
contact with each other they fell into a localised long night for about 800
years, before Mire (IIRC) achieved the sustainable technology to construct
its own starships and re-establish contact.

By this time the virgin territory of the Spinward Marches was now occupied
by the Sword Worlders and Zhodani.

Subsequent revelation that the Zhodani had been watching the Darrians in
secret for centuries (due to the Zhodani fears that the Maghiz was the
result of some Darrian Super-weapon) has lead to the Darrian distrust of the
Zhodani, and their allying with the Imperium in the Frontier Wars.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 13:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr  6 13:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020406172606.9E61827AC3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16tyB5-0001Pv-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

laning <laning@wizard.net> wrote:

> > > I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> > > survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of war.
> 
> I can't buy into that at all, John.  Sorry.  Wars seem no more
> omnipresent today than they were in classical times.  The only
> relationships I would draw are the motivation for vengeance that
> connects the survivors to a mass slaughter, and Malthusian effects of
> reducing population pressure by reducing population.  Two forces that
> relationships that seem in opposition to each other.  Even if you
> massacre _all_ your enemy, even the children below age six, you will
> put yourself high on the rest of the world's Enemies To Destroy list. 
> There will come the day you are on the losing side in a war, and
> genocide is not a precedent that you'd like to have around.

I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because 
humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill 
that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate 
thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in 
Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost 
any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something 
separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before. 
 
The three examples above are only those examples I know of with 
the highest death toll, tens of thousands were also been killed in 
Indonesia in the 1960s and in the ruins of Yugoslavia.  

Combat lethality may have gone down, but death tolls in conflicts 
have certainly gone *way* up.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 14:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 14:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn explains recoil in the gauss rifle
<snip>

Yes, it's not completely silent.  There's still the ballistic 
crack - but - it would be difficult to locate the firer, 
especially in an environment where any planar surfaces 
(treelines, building faces) were along the line of flight. 
People who are not familiar with the sound will not know what 
it is at all - most inexperienced people don't associate that 
sound with gunfire (I've taken people into the pits, and 
after the cracks whip by overhead, the guest usually 
says, "What's that sound?").

At such a light projectile, even at such a high velocity, I'm 
not sure that it's that effective a penetrator, unless it's 
really long in proportion to its width - and when they say 
it's 4mm, that's not that much more narrow than 7mm - or 
5.56mm.  Change it to something like a 2mm dart with a body 
40mm long - now that's something.

But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a 
miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no 
visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kown:
>ObTrav: A Gauss weapon should be a better penetrator than a laser,
>but the laser has no recoil.  I'm still trying to figure out the
>handwave that allows a plasma bolt to go more than a few centimeters
>out of the barrel.

You forget.  It's a _high_tech_ plasma bolt.  :->

IMTU, laser weapons do minimal damage.  I just don't think they can 
transfer enough energy into their target during the very, very brief moment 
they touch their target.  Normally.  If the target is unmoving, you can do 
a lot.  I've been on the brink of drastically reducing the range of fusion 
and plasma weapons, too.  For reasons similar to your own.

I also reduce the damage on gauss weapons by a bit, because of the gauss 
weapons in equipment lists are smaller caliber than most gunpowder weapons 
in the same category.  A projectile is a projectile.  Whether it was made 
to go very fast by a gunpowder explosion or a magnetic acceleration doesn't 
make any difference, as long as it is going the same speed.

Tod Glenn has drawn my attention to the fact that there are probably 
profound differences between target ballistics with projectiles travelling 
faster than 1140 meters per second, and projectiles going slower.  I have 
been pondering whether or how to revise my house rules on gauss weapons 
accordingly.  Given the standard handwaves that the Traveller rules are 
based on, at least some personal gauss weapons could theoretically achieve 
those kinds of velocities.  But then you get into the recoil issue you 
already brought up.  As well as problems with the projectile breaking up if 
it strikes a raindrop or a leaf on its way to the intended target.

I think firearms will always have an important role in combat in the 
Traveller universe, even with the presence of laser, fusion, plasma, and 
gauss weapons.  Although gauss weapons could supplant firearms in most 
cases if they are designed to throw projectiles to the same spec as their 
gunpowder counterparts.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Combat Armor & Battle Dress
In-Reply-To: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406172440.0282cbb0@pop.wizard.net>

Ken Murphy wrote:
 >>>
>   While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I 
> discovered that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game 
> (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of the 
> different models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
>   Could someone help me out?
<<<
I have Imperial Encylcopedia but not Referee's Manual.  Maybe we could help 
each other replace our purchased-but-missing books with a photocopier?  My 
understanding is that Marc Miller sanctions that, because we did in fact 
pay to own those books.

Encyclopedia only seems to list generalized text descriptions of the two 
things.  Not that long, not of much use to somebody who already understands 
the concepts.

p 74 of Players Manual gives some armor values:
Combat Armor-11  armor value 8
Combat Armor-12  armor value 10
Combat Armor-14  armor value 18
Battle Dress-13  armor value 10
Battle Dress-14 armor value 18

IIRC, the 11,12, 13, and 14 represent the tech level that the particular 
model of armor becomes available.  Armor value of 8 roughly corresponds to 
a stone, brick, or starship interior wall.  AV 10 roughly corresponds to a 
concrete wall.  AV 18 is somewhere between a reinforced concrete wall and a 
heavy steel frame wall.  A starship bulkhead is 40 and hull is 
60.  Sandbags are 6.  I am just repeating these value equivalents, not 
necessarily agreeing with them.  :->

I have a vague memory of the reference you're talking about, it must be out 
there somewhere.  But the above is all I can find in MT.  :-<

It's possible my memory is from T4.  Their have some detailed descriptions 
of battle dress at least, at various tech levels.  Pretty decent work, 
really.  Hey, not _everything_ IG put out was regrettable!  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 2:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a
> miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no
> visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).
> 

What type of laser? What power range?  Are their any ionizing effects?
Certainly the laser makes noise when it hits the target.  Steam explosions
in tissue, the popping of superheated fat.

And ever looked at a later with LI gear?  Super obvious.  Like having a big
pointer going back to the firer.  And lasers are relatively easy to defeat,
or at least attenuate.  A few mils of highly reflective material sewn into
clothing, prismatic aerosols.  As mentioned in a previous post, lasers are
not good penetrators.  The problem is with the nature of lasers themselves.
The have to vaporize there way through materials.  But the vaporized
material itself can act as a hindrance to the laser.

Also, water (and by analogy tissue) is a great thermal sink. 55 calories to
raise 1 cc of water 1 degree centigrade, IIRC.

I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.

I would be particularly be interested in the amount of power required to
produce a lethal beam, and compare that to the energy required to drive a
gauss projectile at book 4 velocities.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: vehicle design
Message-ID: <3CAF83F0.FB931D1E@mail.cswnet.com>

I need a vehicle design for my starport/colony.

1.The vehicle is intended to be used for public transportation.

2. It is to fit into a circular tunnel, the diameter of which is
4 meters/4.376 yards. The vehicle must fit inside this.
Remember the math. Area of circle: 3.14*Radius squared

3. The tunnel runs for 10km/6.25miles, from the starport to the
main town.

4. The tunnel is sealed from the external environment. 

5. Would like to see something like the maglev's from 2300 or the 
train thingies from SPACE:1999.

6. Any design format/iteration is welcome.

7. If you give me a really good design, I'll name the tunnel after you.
:) :) :)

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406180955.0282f100@pop.wizard.net>

The inestimable though esteemed Mr. Whipsnade contributes:
>    The answer is a melange of MAD, dispersal, and dampers.  There are 
> rarely single reasons for any given happenstance.
>     I wonder, what if TL 12 is when dampers are small enough to allow 
> them to be installed aboard ships?  Or the power requirements are finally 
> "doable" in a hull?  Prior to TL 12, dampers could be massive, strategic 
> systems that require multiple installations and oodles of generators.  At 
> TL 12, the technology gets miniaturized enough to be installed aboard 
> ships, sort of like radar between the late 1930s and early 1940s.
>     It's still a handwave, though.
>
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Larsen

Though you present a reasonable approach, I only wish I were 
persuaded.  It's amusing when you think about it.  Each of us has different 
things in canon that we find objectionable.  Some are bothered by the 
evolutionary biology or the chemistry, others are bothered by plot holes, 
others again by problems with basic laws of physics or theoretical physical 
limits.  Yet we are each on the TML because of our genuine love for the 
game, and most of us either accept or cherish the main body of the 
work.  We all have different comfort levels over different things.  I am 
very comfortable with having thruster plates in as a handwave, yet bothered 
that laser weapons do "too much damage"?  LOL.  Descriptions of the 
Traveller time line are acceptable to some verbatim, regardless of any 
contradictions or loopholes.  It's just fiction, there's no point to trying 
to find deeper meaning.  I accept a lot of parts of it the same way, but am 
bothered by this particular thing and completely balk at 'the 
Rebellion'.  It is well and truly said:  YMMV.

Yeah, I was thinking about the possibility of nuclear dampers below TL 12 
just being bigger than the TL 12 ones that are in 100-ton ship's bays.  You 
might even be able to get that down to TL 9, when jump drives make their 
first appearance, who knows.  Though the very frequent references to 
threats of nuclear war or to past nuclear wars that vaguely affected lots 
of places yet seem to have specifically affected nowhere should mean that 
we'd see at least _one_ mention of dampers as strategic protection.  And we 
don't.  For any tech level.  And then we're told that the combatants in the 
Rebellion seem to be making liberal use of them and planets are getting 
hosed down.  If that wasn't feasible before, what has changed that makes it 
feasible now?  (Besides who is doing most of the writing of the books.  :-)

I'm stumped here.  I need something to say when I start my next Traveller 
game.  And did I mention one of my players has a doctorate from MIT on the 
subject of nuclear warfare?  It's _going_ to come up.  Guess I'll turn the 
tables and ask him to help come up with a rationalization before he can ask 
me for one.  It would help even more if he'd read anything besides the 
original three LBBs back in 1977.  I'll post here and let you all know what 
he contributes.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D4C656.3788B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 3:07 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> 
> Tod Glenn has drawn my attention to the fact that there are probably
> profound differences between target ballistics with projectiles travelling
> faster than 1140 meters per second, and projectiles going slower.

Actually, it's 1450 m/s.  An the differences in wounding are not
theoretical, they are proven.  I direct you to "Antipersonnel Weapons"
published by SIPRI (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute) which
has a very good section of the effects of hypervelocity (1450+ m/s)
projectiles.  There have also been a few writeups in past issues of the
"Journal of Wound Ballistics".  I'll look for the articles and get you a
cite.

> I have 
> been pondering whether or how to revise my house rules on gauss weapons
> accordingly.  Given the standard handwaves that the Traveller rules are
> based on, at least some personal gauss weapons could theoretically achieve
> those kinds of velocities.  But then you get into the recoil issue you
> already brought up.

See my earlier post. Gauss weapon have significantly less free recoil energy
than CPR guns.  Just using the example from my previous post.  If we take
two identical weapons (in the example, M1As), one CPR the other gauss, each
firing an identical bullet at identical velocities.

M1A Standard:   34 J of free recoil
M1A Gauss:      17.7 J of free recoil

The Traveller Book 4 gauss rifle fires a 4g 4mm projectile at 1500 m/s.  The
weapons masses 3.5 kg, thus we have a free recoil energy of only 10.2 J, 2/3
the recoil of the M16.  The M16 has 1800 J of muzzle energy compared with
the gauss rifle's 4500 J.

If the gauss rifle is a coil gun (as many have suggested, and the
description from book 4 seems to fit)  the projectile must be ferromagnetic.
Let's assume elemental iron to make it easy.  Iron has a density of 7.86
g/cc.  We know from 'canon' that the gauss round is 4mm in diameter and
masses 4 g.  That means a projectile that is 4cm long, a 1:10 aspect ratio.

Looking a Mach's equation, these rounds are going to decelerate quickly once
they hit flesh, and probably cause wounding that is way beyond anything
caused by a conventional firearm.

> As well as problems with the projectile breaking up if
> it strikes a raindrop or a leaf on its way to the intended target.

That's a function of bullet composition.  If we assume a monolithic
projectile of iron, I doubt we'd observe such effects.  The bullets where
this phenomenon is observers are copper jacketed lead bullets.
> 
> I think firearms will always have an important role in combat in the
> Traveller universe, even with the presence of laser, fusion, plasma, and
> gauss weapons.  Although gauss weapons could supplant firearms in most
> cases if they are designed to throw projectiles to the same spec as their
> gunpowder counterparts.
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAMENHCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn asks
[I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.]

See http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/docs/98-165.pdf
for calculations on how to do damage via vaporization (there is a note that
vaporization is probably not necessary for a kill).  This is for missiles,
but you could make some assumptions about a human (just use the heat of
vaporization for water).  The primary advantage on firing on a human seems
to be that you don't need a 1 meter wide beam.

I've seen an industrial laser penetrate a stack of layered fabric over two
meters thick in a split second.  It was being used to cut cloth to the
pattern desired.  Penetration seems to be a matter of spot size and
energy deposited.  I was told that the same laser would easily, and just
as rapidly, slice a human into two strangers with the same speed and
efficiency.

The optimum wavelength is largely a matter of what is the optimum
wavelength in the atmosphere, which might vary some by planet.  Here
on earth, the optimum wavelength seems to be 1.3 nm, which can be produced
either by the COIL (chlorine/oxygen/iodine) or DF overtone (two deuterium
flouride lasers tuned to create a single overtone).

In fact, it is now claimed by the Space Based Laser documentation, that
a satellite-based laser could be used to strike individual ground targets
as small as a man. They claim now that there would be virtually no loss
if they were to use the DF overtone laser. Keep in mind that the beam
diameter at that distance would be 1 meter, and the fluence would be
high enough to completely vaporize 3mm thickness of mild steel in a
few milliseconds.

They are making the assumption now that the enemy *will* try and make
the target reflective.  Most humans, unless armored, will make a much
more cooperative target for lasers operating in the 1.3nm region.

Yes, someone will see this beam using NVG and perhaps even thermal
sights.  But such weapons can also be used with a rotating mirror at
much lower power levels to rapidly and randomly cover an area with
high enough energy to permanently damage even passive optics like
a simple pair of binoculars, and to permanently blind any human unlucky
enough to be looking in the wrong direction.

Maybe we would all be reduced to blindly wandering about with Laning's
battle axe, looking for each other.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAF897A.E39681FF@premier.net>


"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> 
> From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
> 
>      "...looked up nuclear dampers.  First available at TL 12."
> Sir,
> 
>      Well, that settles that theory.
> 
>      "You have to get all the way from TL 6 or 7 to TL 12 without them, but
> still dealing nukes.  Jump drives start at TL 9, so you have to get from 9
> to 12 with the capability for interstellar delivery of nukes."
> 
>      So until TL 12, MAD and geographical/astrographic dispersal are the
> trumps, usually.

Given that starship laser turrets are available at TL 7 (HG2, page 25,
they add a point-defense wild card to the deck.

It would seem that the authors of HG2 anticipated some aspects of
SDI.... ;-)

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406185112.00ab8e30@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn, after writing a fairly impressive summary of lasers as weapons, 
says:
>I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
>discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
>methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.
>
>I would be particularly be interested in the amount of power required to
>produce a lethal beam, and compare that to the energy required to drive a
>gauss projectile at book 4 velocities.

I second the motion.  And please consider the laser's value as a penetrator 
of armor?  The old timey steel kind, the contemporary kevlar kind, and 
whatever you feel is useful about the unobtainium kinds posited for higher 
tech levels.

Tod, your previous analysis of felt recoil vs muzzle energy, etc. Just 
found its way onto my hard drive.

Oh, I should mention that attempts to post to tml@travellercentral.com were 
giving me error 550 messages and bouncing a short while ago.  Roughly 1830 
eastern time.  Duration of problem seemed to be less than half an hour, so 
just a burp, I guess.  Possibly the mail server daemon was really busy at 
the time, I dunno.  Probably old news to you.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:02:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:02:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
In-Reply-To: <001801c1ddb2$e0895ba0$52200050@matt>
References: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406185801.00abbec0@pop.wizard.net>

Regarding what devastated Darrian, Matt Bond enlightens us:

>As I recall, one project was going to use two interfering beams of some type
>or radiation to probe the interior of the Star, and the other was to use a
>probe with some kind of ablative heat shielding.
>
>Both projects were being conducted semi-secretly and independently. That is
>to say that neither team was particularly aware of the other project.
>
>Both projects happened to reach their final stage at the same time, and each
>performed its experiment simultaneously.

If you're a player or referee even halfway inclined to make use of 
conspiracies, then this extreme coincidence should be enough to excite your 
interest.



><<<snip>>>
>Subsequent revelation that the Zhodani had been watching the Darrians in
>secret for centuries (due to the Zhodani fears that the Maghiz was the
>result of some Darrian Super-weapon) has lead to the Darrian distrust of the
>Zhodani, and their allying with the Imperium in the Frontier Wars.

Well, whether it was a conspiracy, an accident, or a weapons experiment, 
the Darrians do seem to end up knowing how to produce a Darrian 
SuperWeapon.  I like to think of it as the gods punishing Ikaros for 
forgetting his place.  Or Grandfather keeping precocious humans from 
becoming too troublesome (to other sophs in general?  to some project of 
Grandfather's?  to Grandfather himself?).  And I delight in stirring my 
players to worry about all these possibilities without knowing which is the 
truth.  Which doesn't make me an Evil Referee.  I'm hardly fiendishly 
clever enough for that.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:12:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:12:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0378F.26380.9082ED@localhost>

On 6 Apr 2002 at 15:11, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Also, water (and by analogy tissue) is a great thermal sink. 55 calories
> to raise 1 cc of water 1 degree centigrade, IIRC.

I think that's 1 calorie. However it's 4.2J to raise 1g of water 1 
degree Celsius. Then there's the .226 J/g to turn boiling water into 
steam, and then about 2 J/g to raise a gram of steam's temperature by 1 
degree. You'd be looking at about 500 J/g to turn flesh into not very 
hot (or high pressure) steam.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:13:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:13:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0378F.6868.90823C@localhost>

On 6 Apr 2002 at 6:59, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      A few you forgot to mention;
>      Kuzu - The Aslan's Second World War was nuclear, the Third one,
>      which 
> the arrival of "Pathfinder" prevented, was going to nuclear too.  Shame
> it didn't happen.
>      Asmodeus - A balkanized Zho world in the Marches had a nuclear
>      exchange 
> sometime in the 1090's.  Guess the Thought Police were all out getting
> doughnuts.
>      Unknown - IIRC, there's a balkanized world mentioned somewhere in
>      canon 
> that went nucelar.  The population there lived in domes and levels took
> quite a nose dive before the Marines could intervene.

How about the Ilelesh Revolt? Didn't the Imperium scrub the sector 
capital clean of life as an example to others?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C656.3788B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406191311.02844050@pop.wizard.net>

Wonderful.  Tod is doing a good job of convincing me of the superiority of 
gauss weapons to gunpowder weapons...just as my character in Tod's game is 
in an already terrifying combat situation--and the bad guys mostly use 
gauss weapons while our guys use mostly gunpowder.  Ruh roh.

This is on top of the various other combat advantages the bad guys have 
already established for themselves.  And I freely admit that our side could 
have done a better job of matching them in a lot of ways.  Part of our 
failure to do so is because we were so busy roleplaying instead of being 
munchkins.  :->

--Laning aka Krowaka


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <3CAF897A.E39681FF@premier.net>
References: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406192030.02845720@pop.wizard.net>

John Groth reminds us of another card on the table:

>Given that starship laser turrets are available at TL 7 (HG2, page 25,
>they add a point-defense wild card to the deck.
>
>It would seem that the authors of HG2 anticipated some aspects of
>SDI.... ;-)

Hm.  I was just about to proclaim laser-based missile defenses as the 
salvation of sophonts everywhere over the past centuries.  Regardless of 
real life opinions on the topic, that seems satisfying enough for Traveller 
purposes.  But there's still that nagging thing about the Rebellion being 
able to get away with nuclear bombardments when nobody previously 
could.  This should be good enough for most of my players, as they aren't 
familiar with Traveller to begin with and there is no Rebellion 
IMTU.  Practical problem solved at least for now.  Intellectual problem 
still a bit lingering.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 17:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr  6 17:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020407112641.A1980@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
> discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
> methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.

The best I've seen (and calculated) is to produce a train of pulses
lasting a millisecond or so, with pulses a few tens of microseconds
apart.  The collimation requirements are pretty stringent thought; for
this application you want to be able to focus on a region just a
couple of millimetres across.  Each pulse need only have a few tens of
joules, and the pulse train as a whole needs a kJ or so to give
similar penetration to a 9mm pistol bullet.  With more energy, you can
obviously do more damage, relax the focus requirements, and/or get
better penetration.

Such a weapon would most certainly *not* be silent.  At the target the
'bang' of superheated vapour would be far louder than the
corresponding sound of a bullet impact; more like the firing of an
unsuppressed slugthrower.  The pulses themselves would also disturb
the air through which they pass, but this would be a more diffuse and
dificult to localise sound.

Wavelengths near visible light are best, since most other frequencies
are absorbed by the atmosphere more strongly.  At handgun ranges this
probably isn't a problem though.  I would suggest near-UV.  This also
diminishes the danger to the retinas of unintended targets from beam
scattering, since UV is absorbed by the cornea (I think).


> I would be particularly be interested in the amount of power required to
> produce a lethal beam, and compare that to the energy required to drive a
> gauss projectile at book 4 velocities.

Very similar.  Both look to be in the 5-10 kJ range for effective
antipersonnel use.  The laser would have slightly lower wounding
potential and worse armour penetration, but may need only energy and
has no recoil at all.  It would probably also be more adaptable to
various uses (e.g. longer-duration cutting or drilling).  The gauss
weapon would probably have better wounding potential and lower recoil,
but needs both physical ammunition and energy.  Maintenance may be
more of a problem than chemical slugthrowers in both cases, unless
technology is sufficiently advanced.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
References: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020406185801.00abbec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <002901c1dde3$af25f6a0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "laning" <laning@wizard.net>
> Well, whether it was a conspiracy, an accident, or a weapons experiment,
> the Darrians do seem to end up knowing how to produce a Darrian
> SuperWeapon.

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately if you are on the other side...) the
devastation caused by the Maghiz destroyed all records of one of the
experiments (the interfering beams), so until the players discover the
necessary evidence of the second experiment in the adventure in the back of
Alien Module 8: Darrians, the Darrian Starkiller weapon is pure bluff. They
believed it was purely due to the probe, and tough that their failure was
due to imperfect records of the probes construction. They managed to
convince their neighbours through a rigged demonstration that they still had
the technology to induce a mini-nova. (I seem to recall that they used some
recovered Tech-G sensors to locate a star that was slightly unstable anyway
to do their demo on, that lesser sensors would think was stable).

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] pilot specs
In-Reply-To: <20020405.205600.-3247.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> What are the real life size minimum and maximum hight 
> requirements for a combat fighter pilot?

In general the minimums are set so that you can see over 
the dashboard, and the maximums are set so that your knees 
don't get cut-off when you use the bang-seat. 

What those measurements are depend on what combat aircraft
your force is flying. 

Frankie







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:32:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:32:56 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> war.

I don't see it making any change, as this unwillingness to
slaughter is actually pretty normal and has been throughout
history.

Not that _everybody_ has this unwllingness, but the vast majority
of people do, including most soldiers.

> People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.

Actually, no. That only happens against psychotic invaders who
you know will kill you if you surrender.

If you are fighting "normal" invaders, the majority of the people
don't fight at all, as they don't care who is in charge, one lord
is the same as another.

_Most_ peoples stop fighting when their armies have been defeated
or have surrendered, and most armies stop fighting when they
believe they cannot win.  They may not have been defeated at that
point.

Only fanatics, or people who have nothing to lose, such as those
who are guilty of war crimes so know they will be put to death,
keep fighting.

> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

And just as any other piece of propaganda, the descriptions in
the Old Testament were somewhat overblown.
It was common to ascribe such tactics to the barbarians of the
past, and the enemies of the present. If all the peoples and
towns that supposedly had been put to the sword actually were,
the population of the world would have taken much longer.

> It's barbaric, I know.

It's also extremely wasteful, and almost guarantees that you will
fail in the short term.

The "Thousand Year Reich", an organization that was oppressive
and actively treied to eliminate their enemiew, lasted less than
a couple of decades.

The Roman "Empire", which in the main did not go round trying to
destroy peoples, but was largely tolerant and inclusive, lasted
several centuries.  It finally fell because it became oppressive
and intolerant.

> But if you want to get the message across that Our
> Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you
> have to do.

To be an effective invader you do _not_ want to get across the
idea "We won and You lost", you want to get across the idea that
"We, including you, all Won, and the bad guys who used to rule
you lost"

> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.

This is probably outweighed by the loss of the planet as an
industrial base

Not to mention that the M.A.D doctrine is even more effective in
the stellar arena.

As soon as you do this without "just cause" you have made enemies
of every other polity in the galaxy (except perhaps the K'Kree
who are already in this position).

Also it is _very_ easy to set off a few nukes on your capital
world, even if it is far behind the frontlines, and your Navy
can't prevent it without isolating the capital from all trade,
which would have even _more_ effect than the nuke, as shown by
the aftermath of Sept 11th.

> Their ships might have to chase those missiles instead of
firing on
> the attackers.

Very unlikely, a few nukes on the planet are not worth losing the
battle over, and anyway, the planet is likely to have better
anti-missile defences than the ships.

> And how many nukes does it really take to lay
> waste to an advanced industrial society?

A huge number.

More than the the arsenals of China, the USA, and the USSR put
together when at maximum strength, in fact.

Unless you have a few "big" enough to crack the crust, and if you
have that sort of capabilty, _nobody_ is dsafe, and it's even
less likely anyone will use the capability in a normal
(non-xenophobe) war.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] pilot specs
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <20020405.205600.-3247.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406224027.00cc5150@192.168.0.1>

At 03:41 PM 4/7/2002 +1200, Frank Pitt wrote:
>generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> > What are the real life size minimum and maximum hight
> > requirements for a combat fighter pilot?
>In general the minimums are set so that you can see over
>the dashboard, and the maximums are set so that your knees
>don't get cut-off when you use the bang-seat.

The Maximum mentioned is what kept my brother out of the Air Force.
He was *that close* to signing up till he was measured from hip to knee.
3/4" too long for the FB-111.

>What those measurements are depend on what combat aircraft
>your force is flying.

-----------------------------------------------------
"Freedom is man's capacity to take a hand in his own
development. It is our capacity to mold ourselves."
-- Rollo May  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
-----------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CF6F3E.3427B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20406.200715.2D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find anything.  OK,
> I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite terrorist building
> these?

Because *being* a Luddite, they aren't familar with the tech?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:44:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:44:11 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20406.204246.6R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/6/02 1:06 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.
>> 
>> I have trouble picturing a coilgun as being *practical* in a man
>> portable size. Railguns are almost as bad, but at least you don't need
>> to switch all that power *repeatedly* and with precise timing dozens of
>> times per shot.
>
> The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
> build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.

For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:46:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:46:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Combat Armor & Battle Dress
References: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <DAV17bZEHQQE9OFLkxt00005c25@hotmail.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_010A_01C1DDBC.7A6DF060
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gentlebeing Murphy asks regarding weight and volume of Combat Armor and =
Battledress in MegaTraveller.=20


Armor                            TL            Volume            Weight  =
          Cr

Combat Armor 11            11                2.9                18       =
         20k
Combat Armor 12            12                1.8                10       =
         30k
Combat Armor 14            14                0.7                6        =
          60k
Battle Dress     13            13                3.8                26   =
             200k
Battle Dress     14            14                2.7                12   =
             350k
Cmbt Env Suit                  10                 6                 2.0  =
              1,000

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was also of extremely limited value.   =
...(T)he steers were incapable of understanding what was happening and =
articulating their concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. =
Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

------=_NextPart_000_010A_01C1DDBC.7A6DF060
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Gentlebeing Murphy asks regarding weight and volume =
of Combat=20
Armor and Battledress in MegaTraveller. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Armor&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
TL&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Volume&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Weight&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Cr</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Combat Armor 11&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2.9&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
18&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;20k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Combat Armor 12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
1.8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;30k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Combat Armor&nbsp;14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;60k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Battle =
Dress&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;13&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
13&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3.8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;26&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;200k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Battle =
Dress&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2.7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;350k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Cmbt Env=20
Suit&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2.0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1,000</FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:texasredshift@hotmail.com">texasredshift@hotmail.com</A><B=
R><A=20
href=3D"mailto:billws@sysmatrix.net">billws@sysmatrix.net</A></FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The shooting of the steers was also of extremely =
limited=20
value.&nbsp;&nbsp; ...(T)he steers were incapable of understanding what =
was=20
happening and articulating their concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by =
Evan P.=20
Marshall and Edwin J.=20
Sanow</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_010A_01C1DDBC.7A6DF060--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <20406.204246.6R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c1ddf0$419a3800$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>

> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.

Or Ha-Un batteries (Batteries made from a mixture of Handwavium and
Unobtainium)...

<g>

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 21:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 21:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20406.204246.6R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D51C82.37945%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 8:42 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
>> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
>> build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.
> 
> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.

??

Why permanent magnets.  A rialgun doesn't use magnetic fields in the manner
of a coil gun.  We just have two parallel rails and the armature
(projectile).  We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
in the loop and acting on the armature.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 21:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 21:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <000b01c1ddf0$419a3800$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <B8D51CD6.37946%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 8:54 PM, Matthew Bond at mattgbond@ntlworld.com wrote:

>> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
>> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.
> 
> Or Ha-Un batteries (Batteries made from a mixture of Handwavium and
> Unobtainium)...

Assuming you are using batteries.  Perhaps a small, highly efficient
compulsator?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 21:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 21:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEPIGEAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Sound like a reprise of the old Golden Bridgers and the 
relentless pursuit practitioners.  Historically, leaders tended 
to publicly Golden Bridegers but the chronicles tend to show 
more then one slaughter of routed losers.  I would tend to think 
that term, (the day of battles), a routed side tended to get 
slaughtered afterwards you were pretty safe


OB Trav

Mercs would tend to be golden Bridgers.
The Imperium would tend to believe in relentless pursuit, u
until you acknowledge you are thumped

(1)  golden bridge = extend a golden bridge to a fleeing enemy  

jml

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> war.

I don't see it making any change, as this unwillingness to
slaughter is actually pretty normal and has been throughout
history.

Not that _everybody_ has this unwllingness, but the vast majority
of people do, including most soldiers.

> People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.

Actually, no. That only happens against psychotic invaders who
you know will kill you if you surrender.

If you are fighting "normal" invaders, the majority of the people
don't fight at all, as they don't care who is in charge, one lord
is the same as another.

_Most_ peoples stop fighting when their armies have been defeated
or have surrendered, and most armies stop fighting when they
believe they cannot win.  They may not have been defeated at that
point.

Only fanatics, or people who have nothing to lose, such as those
who are guilty of war crimes so know they will be put to death,
keep fighting.

> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

And just as any other piece of propaganda, the descriptions in
the Old Testament were somewhat overblown.
It was common to ascribe such tactics to the barbarians of the
past, and the enemies of the present. If all the peoples and
towns that supposedly had been put to the sword actually were,
the population of the world would have taken much longer.

> It's barbaric, I know.

It's also extremely wasteful, and almost guarantees that you will
fail in the short term.

The "Thousand Year Reich", an organization that was oppressive
and actively treied to eliminate their enemiew, lasted less than
a couple of decades.

The Roman "Empire", which in the main did not go round trying to
destroy peoples, but was largely tolerant and inclusive, lasted
several centuries.  It finally fell because it became oppressive
and intolerant.

> But if you want to get the message across that Our
> Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you
> have to do.

To be an effective invader you do _not_ want to get across the
idea "We won and You lost", you want to get across the idea that
"We, including you, all Won, and the bad guys who used to rule
you lost"

> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.

This is probably outweighed by the loss of the planet as an
industrial base

Not to mention that the M.A.D doctrine is even more effective in
the stellar arena.

As soon as you do this without "just cause" you have made enemies
of every other polity in the galaxy (except perhaps the K'Kree
who are already in this position).

Also it is _very_ easy to set off a few nukes on your capital
world, even if it is far behind the frontlines, and your Navy
can't prevent it without isolating the capital from all trade,
which would have even _more_ effect than the nuke, as shown by
the aftermath of Sept 11th.

> Their ships might have to chase those missiles instead of
firing on
> the attackers.

Very unlikely, a few nukes on the planet are not worth losing the
battle over, and anyway, the planet is likely to have better
anti-missile defences than the ships.

> And how many nukes does it really take to lay
> waste to an advanced industrial society?

A huge number.

More than the the arsenals of China, the USA, and the USSR put
together when at maximum strength, in fact.

Unless you have a few "big" enough to crack the crust, and if you
have that sort of capabilty, _nobody_ is dsafe, and it's even
less likely anyone will use the capability in a normal
(non-xenophobe) war.

Frankie


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 22:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 22:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 7 Apr 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <o8pvaugdbvlibj4ikplrj5seooqrgqoqv7@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - More internal changes, plus all of the pages have been updated to
   reflect our new contact address(es), at freelancetraveller.com. The old
   Yahoo! address will continue to work for a while, but you will get
   faster responses by writing to the new addresses. 

 - John T. Kwon brings us a design for the Virtus-class Solomani
   Infiltrator. Read it in The Shipyard. 

 - Joe Webb brings us another JTAS Adventure Contest winner. You can read
   Sex and the Single Vargr in Active Measures. 

 - Kate Thumann brings us the first Traveller "Choose-Your-Own-Adventure",
   Scout's Honor. You can download it from Active Measures. 

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the (working!) feedback form at
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/infocenter/feedbackform.html.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to visit our site
and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our existence
possible.



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 23:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Sat Apr  6 23:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4A39D.37862%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIEANDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

Tod,

RE= Mg *((MbVb+MpVp)/Mg)^2 in Joules

where:  Mg is the mass of the gun
        Vg is the mass of the bullet
        Mp is the mass of the propellant
        Vp is the velocity of the propellant.  Typically
        noted as a constant (1200 m/s)


What is Mb?  Vb? in this equation.

Jusitn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 23:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 23:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204070730.g377U0h29022@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
...
>> The K'kree seem to be the only major polity that believes in
>> re-surfacing planets as a matter of policy. There's all sorts
>> of amateurs that try and compete for the title, but mostly sanity
>> (MAD) or cultural constraints interfere.
>
>I would expect that when it came to the K'kree, their opponents would adopt
>the same attitude.  Something like the US policy on chemical weapons. "No
>first use".  But if you use them, will give it right back and in spades.

  Even the K'kree seem to have opted to be harshest when the suffering 
will be effectively monopolized by their vict^h^h opponents.

  ObTrav: never trust a herd animal? :>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 23:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 23:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIEANDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8D53600.37962%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 11:16 PM, Justin Bunnell at jbunnell@yahoo.com wrote:

> Tod,
> 
> RE= Mg *((MbVb+MpVp)/Mg)^2 in Joules
> 
> where:  Mg is the mass of the gun
> Vg is the mass of the bullet
> Mp is the mass of the propellant
> Vp is the velocity of the propellant.  Typically
> noted as a constant (1200 m/s)
> 
> 
> What is Mb?  Vb? in this equation.

Oops.  Mb= mass of bullet, Vb is velocity of bullet.

I should proofread more carefully.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 00:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 00:05:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Combat Armor & Battle Dress
References: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CAFFDF2.801EA808@virgin.net>

--------------85F01DDED7191BA32DD8BE91
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:

>   Hi,
>   While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I
> discovered that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game
> (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of
> the different models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
>   Could someone help me out?
>   Thanks :)
>  -Ken Murphy-

If you are in the uk, i can help easily as i have a spare (well actually
it is my only one but i don't use it).  Otherwise it will take a few
days.

Simon


--------------85F01DDED7191BA32DD8BE91
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp;
Hi,</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp; While going through
my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I discovered that I no longer
have that 3rd book from the boxed game (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which
gives the weight and volume of the different models of Combat Armor and
Battle Dress.</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp; Could someone help
me out?</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp; Thanks :)</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</font></font></blockquote>

<p><br>If you are in the uk, i can help easily as i have a spare (well
actually it is my only one but i don't use it).&nbsp; Otherwise it will
take a few days.
<p>Simon
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--------------85F01DDED7191BA32DD8BE91--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 00:26:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 00:26:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>

laning wrote:

> <snippety, snip, snip>
> IMTU, laser weapons do minimal damage.
> <snippety, snip, snip>
> I also reduce the damage on gauss weapons by a bit, because of the gauss
> weapons in equipment lists are smaller caliber than most gunpowder weapons
> in the same category.  A projectile is a projectile.  Whether it was made
> to go very fast by a gunpowder explosion or a magnetic acceleration doesn't
> make any difference, as long as it is going the same speed.
>
> --Laning

Just to confirm things here, the Gauss/Rail/coilgun weapons DOES NOT fire the
projectile at similar speeds to 'gunpowder' weapons.  The last i heard (and
this was about 5+ years ago), current (at the time) railgun technology was
managing to accelerate a small plastic pellet (about 1" across IIRC) to over
22km/s (declared) and it was punching through 6" steel plating as if it were a
shaped charge.  We are now 5+ years on so that will have improved somewhat.
Now extrapolate on a few millennia and put the new improved kit in a portable
form and you have the Gauss Gun.

The drawback are that, due to the inherent speed of the projectile, you will
produce a sonic 'boom' (albeit a small one) in all but the 'rarest'
atmospheres.  Also, I would expect the extreme pressure waves to form minute
contrails (someone correct me here if i am floundering into strange
territories) and therefore make it relatively easy to detect where the shots
were originating from (but also acting like a form of tracer to the firer as
well).

Now, using the good ok EnergyK=0.5 x M x V x V, I would approximate that a 4g
needle from a gauss gun at 20 km/s would, theoretically, gave about 0.8 MJ of
kinetic energy, enough to knock anyone off their feet and punch a big hole in
everything apart from hulls and bulkheads (gearheads can you please confirm
both calculations and also what it should/shouldn't penetrate :-) )

A good example of this would be the railgun effects in 'Eraser' (a s**t film
apart from that bit though)

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 00:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 00:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20020405224838.04445dd0@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <3CB00424.9F0823FB@virgin.net>

Richard Wilson wrote:

> At 04:59 PM 4/4/02, you wrote:
> >Mark Urbin wrote:
> > > I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> > > I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor
> > > training.
> >
> >I used to work a a company that tried for (and got) ISO 9000/9001
> >certification: it was easy-peasy!
> >
> >1) Have a documented procedure for everything
> >2) Make sure all staff know where the latest  versions  of  those
> >    documents are (ie. where on the PC server)
> >
> >The fact that we didn't actually follow those  procedures  (close
> >scrutiny would have revealed they were unworkable anyhow)  didn't
> >seem to matter.
> >
> >Its just a case of understanding the game.
> >
>
> Funny, the auditor who is checking the company I work for keeps wanting to
> see actual proof that we are following our procedures.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> Richard Wilson

As someone who has done ISO 9000 series to death (and back) it basically boils
down to:

1.    Say how you intend to meet the ISO requirements
2.    Prove that you are doing what you say in 1.

the accreditors are not concerned (neither should they be) with how you meet
the ISO requirement, only that you have a system in place to meet them and
that you use the system that you have said you will.

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 01:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 01:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 12:26 AM, Si at mr.fingle@virgin.net wrote:

> 
> Just to confirm things here, the Gauss/Rail/coilgun weapons DOES NOT fire the
> projectile at similar speeds to 'gunpowder' weapons.  The last i heard (and
> this was about 5+ years ago), current (at the time) railgun technology was
> managing to accelerate a small plastic pellet (about 1" across IIRC) to over
> 22km/s (declared) and it was punching through 6" steel plating as if it were a
> shaped charge.  We are now 5+ years on so that will have improved somewhat.
> Now extrapolate on a few millennia and put the new improved kit in a portable
> form and you have the Gauss Gun.

A railgun will fire the projectile at a velocity proportional to the current
applied.  You could build a railgun to fire a projectile at a lower velocity
of required.  The current military designs for railguns employ an aluminum
sabor to propel a standard tank gun penetrator at something like 2
km/second.  Not bad for a 15 lbs projectile.
> 
> The drawback are that, due to the inherent speed of the projectile, you will
> produce a sonic 'boom' (albeit a small one) in all but the 'rarest'
> atmospheres.  Also, I would expect the extreme pressure waves to form minute
> contrails (someone correct me here if i am floundering into strange
> territories) and therefore make it relatively easy to detect where the shots
> were originating from (but also acting like a form of tracer to the firer as
> well).

I recall the test you refer to.  The projectile actually created a contrail
of ionized gas much like a micrometeorite.
> 
> Now, using the good ok EnergyK=0.5 x M x V x V, I would approximate that a 4g
> needle from a gauss gun at 20 km/s would, theoretically, gave about 0.8 MJ of
> kinetic energy, enough to knock anyone off their feet and punch a big hole in
> everything apart from hulls and bulkheads (gearheads can you please confirm
> both calculations and also what it should/shouldn't penetrate :-) )


Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
20 km/sec.

ME is 0.8 MJ

Assume a weapon mass of 4.5 kg (slightly heavier than Book 4, about 10 lbs
or close enough).  That gives a free recoil energy of 1422 J.  A .458 win
mag elephant gun has a free recoil of 81 J, about the most anyone can
tolerate.  No one will be shooting this.

Let's reset the numbers with a target free recoil of 100 J  and see what we
can come up with.  Again assume a rifle massing 4.5 kg.  If we are still
using the 4mm, 4g projectile, we can tolerate a velocity of 4743 m/s.

That works out to be 45,000 J.  Pretty respectable. The mighty .458 win mag
only generates about 5400 J.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 04:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr  7 03:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <010301c1de1d$72819f80$a85d8690@computer>

> From: sneadj@mindspring.com
> I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because
> humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill
> that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate
> thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in
> Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost
> any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something
> separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before.

The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
million or more - far greater than the examples given above.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 05:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 04:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Time Travel
In-Reply-To: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16uAur-0007IU-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

I'm fairly certain this won't work, but if by some miracle it does we 
might get to see what the 57th century will *really* look like.

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/095/metro/Professor_s_time_tra
vel_idea_fires_up_the_imaginationP.shtml

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 05:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr  7 04:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20406.231818.6W1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Jens Rydholm wrote:
>> My main aim isn't to recreate the original Traveller sequence. If I'd
>> wanted that, I'd just use it instead of First In  ;-)
>> 
>> However, I want roughly the same spread of intelligent races as in typical
>> SF, ie the most common environment for sentinent life to evolve in is on
>> Earthlike worlds.
>> 
>> I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might look
>> under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary after a
>> while.
>> 
>> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
>> function using radically different biochemistries?
>
> Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
> reprinted in various places.

Asimov never had a column in Analog. His column was in F&SF. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 05:38:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr  7 04:38:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20406.232122.6w2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Well, odds are the lock won't work at all then.  Plus, who says you're
> going to
>> put a thumbprint lock on the _inside_ of the lock?
>
> Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
> kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
> Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Take off your suit glove (the wrist will seal, same as if you'd
punctured it). Put your thumb on the reader. 

Once you get inside treat your hand for the swelling, edema, and
rupturing on minor surface blood vessels.

Esposure of your hand to vacuum is *painful*. But the amount of damage
is rather like that for frostbite. Short exposure won't do serious
damage.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 06:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Sun Apr  7 05:13:03 2002
Subject: Traveller Non-Lethals (was Re: [TML] Niches)
References: <20020407082906.CCBE427AFE@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0378D.B52CD94E@earthlink.net>

Mark Urbin posted:
> 
> At 12:41 PM 4/6/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >Tod Glenn says:
> [snip]
> >The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
> >from Book 4.  How about YTU?
> 
> I think people like Snubs because they have HEAP & HE ammo.
> 
> >In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a
> >good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
> >been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.
> 
> T4 has 'em.

So did CT. The publication was the adventure "Divine Intervention".

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 06:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 05:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8D51C82.37945%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAEENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod says:

[We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
in the loop and acting on the armature.]

ObTrav: Can the expert spot the vehicle with the railgun? 
Look for the longer, heavy duty barrel, perhaps with an
external truss.

A railgun would probably require more rigid construction
to resist this force, which would be considerable if the weapon
was designed for very high power (like a vehicle mounted weapon).

The barrel might be much more substantial than a typical 
slugthrower barrel, which has most of its reinforcement in the
breech area.  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn says

[
Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
20 km/sec.

ME is 0.8 MJ

Assume a weapon mass of 4.5 kg (slightly heavier than Book 4, about 10 lbs
or close enough).  That gives a free recoil energy of 1422 J.  A .458 win
mag elephant gun has a free recoil of 81 J, about the most anyone can
tolerate.  No one will be shooting this.

Let's reset the numbers with a target free recoil of 100 J  and see what we
can come up with.  Again assume a rifle massing 4.5 kg.  If we are still
using the 4mm, 4g projectile, we can tolerate a velocity of 4743 m/s.

That works out to be 45,000 J.  Pretty respectable. The mighty .458 win mag
only generates about 5400 J.
] endBlock

As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.  The first example you give is 10%
of that.  The second example has a free recoil somewhere above the elephant
gun.

ObTrav:  To be controllable in full auto, I would think we would want the
free recoil down in the M-16 range (which is dubious, if you've ever
tried to hit something at 100 yards on full auto with the M-16).  I've
also noticed that as soon as recoil levels go over, say, a light rifle
in .243, people begin to notice, and when they notice, they either flinch,
or are apprehensive about firing, especially the first round.

ObTrav2:  Tod, how do we arrive at various penetration and damage values for
CT,
MT, etc.?  FFS might be easy, and maybe we could work our way backwards.
Other game systems, such as PCCS, are extremely easy to back-calculate.

Now, I'm up there with Jeff Cooper in wondering why recoil is a problem,
but then again, I've never tried a .460 Weatherby.  Might make a flincher
out of me.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0F014.30539.36165A5@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 9:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> ObTrav:  To be controllable in full auto, I would think we would want
> the free recoil down in the M-16 range (which is dubious, if you've ever
> tried to hit something at 100 yards on full auto with the M-16).  I've
> also noticed that as soon as recoil levels go over, say, a light rifle
> in .243, people begin to notice, and when they notice, they either
> flinch, or are apprehensive about firing, especially the first round.

They do? Even my sisters didn't consider the SMLE to be excessive once 
they were adults. It was a bit heavy when we were 10 or 12, though. 
I've always thought that recoil isn't significant until you're dealing 
with light, light .270 Winchesters, light .30-06's and up.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <200204071328.DNX00358@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
<snip about learning to shoot when you're young>

Yes, I'm with you that recoil "should not" be a problem, 
especially if you learn to shoot when you're young.

But a lot of people in the US Army have never fired a weapon 
prior to joining up, and many of them are flinchers with an M-
16.  Scary.

I don't really have a problem in recoil, unless, as you say, 
the rifle is too light.  The heavier calibers, such as 
the .375 H&H, tend (to me at least) to feel like a giant 
shove, and the smaller high velocity calibers (the 7mm 
Remington Magnum being one) tend to have a sharper recoil 
spike.

ObTrav:  I really believe in the -5 DM for people who have no 
gun skill.  But -- it only takes a few afternoons of proper 
instuction to get rid of this.  I would assume that 
adventurers have taken the time to teach their fellow 
adventurers (someone with Instruction would be best).
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204071328.DNX00358@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0F5B7.22180.3776D4B@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 9:28, John T. Kwon wrote:

> But a lot of people in the US Army have never fired a weapon 
> prior to joining up, and many of them are flinchers with an M-
> 16.  Scary.

I didn't see that with the guys, but many of the women who joined up 
having never handled a real rifle had problems. Not so much flinching 
as poor and unsteady grip. I don't think some of them ever held the 
weapon steady enough for it to be called a flinch as such. To my great 
surprise everyone in my intake ultimately passed.

> ObTrav:  I really believe in the -5 DM for people who have no 
> gun skill.  But -- it only takes a few afternoons of proper 
> instuction to get rid of this.  I would assume that 
> adventurers have taken the time to teach their fellow 
> adventurers (someone with Instruction would be best).

I'd go along with that.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <8bj0busac4ql4qivsl46eujfq619pq2mb4@4ax.com>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 00:26:03 -0800, "Mark Seemann" <mark@seemann.ms> wrote:

>Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:14:38 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>wrote:

>> We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your 
>> site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which 
>> was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on 
>> the whole series of events?

>While I can't remember the sequence of event, my library data tells me
>there were indeed two projects: The Abh and Udh projects.

>These library entries were taken from the Classic Traveller Alien Module
>8: Darrians, but I can't remember the rest of the story. However, if you
>really want me to, I can go look it up.

The Abh Project involved sending a probe deep into the star; it was kept
cool enough to survive by venting tungsten.

The Udh project involved mapping the interior of the star using crossed
beams of (microwaves?).

The flare happened when the intersecting beams went through a region where
the Abh probe had vented tungsten; the resulting reaction propagated along
the 'tungsten trail' until it reached the star's surface, where it went
nasty.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <8bj0busac4ql4qivsl46eujfq619pq2mb4@4ax.com>
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407080316.009f24b0@mindspring.com>

At 09:48 AM 4/7/02 -0400, you wrote:
>The Udh project involved mapping the interior of the star using crossed
>beams of (microwaves?).

Mesons.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 09:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Sun Apr  7 08:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com> <010301c1de1d$72819f80$a85d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CB06657.8060405@gmx.net>

Alan Bradley wrote:

>>From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>>I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because
>>humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill
>>that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate
>>thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in
>>Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost
>>any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something
>>separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before.
>>
>
>The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
>Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
>million or more - far greater than the examples given above.
>
What about the ratio of 'civilian' deaths to 'military' deaths? Who gets 
the award for most civilian casulties compared to military casulties, 
not overall numbers?

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 10:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 09:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407111020.027e6d50@pop.wizard.net>

Si quotes me then says:
>laning wrote:
>
> > <snippety, snip, snip>
> > IMTU, laser weapons do minimal damage.
> > <snippety, snip, snip>
> > I also reduce the damage on gauss weapons by a bit, because of the gauss
> > weapons in equipment lists are smaller caliber than most gunpowder weapons
> > in the same category.  A projectile is a projectile.  Whether it was made
> > to go very fast by a gunpowder explosion or a magnetic acceleration doesn't
> > make any difference, as long as it is going the same speed.
> >
> > --Laning
>
>Just to confirm things here, the Gauss/Rail/coilgun weapons DOES NOT fire the
>projectile at similar speeds to 'gunpowder' weapons.  The last i heard (and
>this was about 5+ years ago), current (at the time) railgun technology was
>managing to accelerate a small plastic pellet (about 1" across IIRC) to over
>22km/s (declared) and it was punching through 6" steel plating as if it were a
>shaped charge.

Let's see if I can express myself better this time.  I am not trying to say 
that gauss weapons are only capable of matching gunpowder weapons 
performance.  I was trying to say that if you build a gauss weapon and a 
gunpowder weapon that each propel an identical projectile to an identical 
speed and spin, then the projectiles will both behave identically as they 
go down range.

There have been posts (primarily from Tod Glenn) since my post quoted above 
that let's say strongly suggest it would be unlikely that anyone would 
bother to build gauss weapons that way.  Instead, makers of gauss weapons 
would send a lighter, skinnier, longer projectile down range and at hugely 
greater velocities than anyone would bother to try to make a gunpowder 
weapon do even if they could make it do so.  I was trying originally to say 
that if gauss weapon makers are underperforming in a particular niche of 
gun type, all they have to do is come up with a gauss weapon that throws 
essentially the same slug at essentially the same speed and spin as the 
gunpowder weapons they are competing with.

Assuming that weapon/ammo prices of both are comparable, which they 
probably are not but this is so far out in the realm of science fiction 
that we really can't confidently predict what the prices would be.  So the 
prices are whatever you want to make them.

My reason for making the canonical gauss rifle do somewhat less damage than 
say a battle rifle firing standard 7.62 NATO is that I am not entirely 
convinced that making a lighter skinnier projectile go hugely faster and 
making it a lot longer is necessarily going to produce the wounding results 
predicted by the experts who are designing and testing these things.  I 
think a large dollop of conservatism is a healthy thing in such 
matters.  Let's see production models in real combat or hunting and used by 
regular people, and in uncontrolled conditions.

Please note that I am not _rejecting_ claims from gauss weapon 
proponents.  I am being slow to accept them.  I should also point out what 
I posted earlier:  I am reconsidering my house rule on gauss weapon damage, 
mostly because of things Tod Glenn has said.  I made those house rules many 
years ago and haven't been prompted to change them since.  But maybe I 
will, now.  They're just a science fiction item in a science fiction game, 
and I don't feel it's criminally stupid of me to make gauss weapons IMTU 
behave differently than gauss weapons in someone else's TU.  My players 
have been happy with my rules for twenty years, and generally the ones with 
the most knowledge of military firearms have been the happiest.  That tells 
me that my rules aren't just completely ludicrous.  If my version of gauss 
weapons bothers you, then maybe you will find some relief to know that I 
wholeheartedly agree about those magic snub pistols not being able to 
penetrate armor as well as they canonically do.  IMTU, they don't.  You can 
have a HEAP round in your snub pistol, and it may improve it's penetration 
in many circumstances.  But it will still penetrate more poorly than a HEAP 
round from a standard autopistol.  My usual snub pistol description is 
roughly the .25 auto "lady's gun".

If you're curious about what I would change my house rules to say on gauss 
weapons, here's what I am thinking about maybe doing.  Or I may decide not 
to since it's been fun to play with the rules I'm used to and it's just a 
game.  I'm thinking about crunching the numbers with the formulae helpfully 
provided by Tod Glenn using canonical gauss weapon designs and probably a 
couple or three other designs of my own.  Translate the results back into 
Traveller combat stats.  Work through each of the ammo types I believe 
would be useful and decide what differences to implement for a projectile 
that is much longer, proportionally than comparable gunpowder bullets.  I'm 
guessing that some ammo types will be more expensive and others 
cheaper.  And HEAP may be less effective because higher velocities and 
probably faster twists and smaller diameters can be counterproductive for 
that type of ammo, but perhaps the longer projectile will help.  I am also 
thinking about making the gauss weapon itself a lot more expensive.  Or 
not.  I can think of reasonable arguments both ways.  And making gauss 
weapons more fragile than gunpowder weapons.  Or again, perhaps not.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 10:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Apr  7 09:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>

From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>

     "The Abh Project involved sending a probe deep into the star; it was 
kept cool enough to survive by venting tungsten."

     "The Udh project involved mapping the interior of the star using 
crossed beams of (microwaves?)."


Mr. Zeitlin,

     Intersecting meson beams being used as some sort of active sensor 
system.  The beams also need to intersect at a "shallow", or obtuse, angle 
with each other.  The beams in the case of Tanis system were projected from 
two widely seperated locations the system's planetoid belt.
     This adds some complexity to any deploymeny of the Star Trigger.  The 
obtuse angle of intersection required for the meson beams means that two 
projectors at near opposite "sides" of a star must be used.
Two ships would then be a minimum; one to release the probe and project a 
beam, the other to project the second beam.  Naturally, the vessels would 
have to be in communication with each other to coordinate the meson beam 
aiming point.  How quickly the tungsten cooled probe, which is only used to 
"seed" the star with that material, can be inserted into the star is 
unknown, as is how much tungsten needs to be vented.
     IIRC, the effects aren't seen for many hours and, presumably, the meson 
beams need to operated for that entire length of time.
     All of this makes the Star Trigger a rather finicky device.  Actual 
deployment of the weapon would require a large, sustained effort on the 
Confederation's part and the use of many vessels.  For example, the vessels 
projecting the two meson beams would have to do so from beyond the star's 
jump limit, otherwise the mission would be a suicidal one.  That suggests 
that the vessels would need to be very large and very specialized to carry 
and operate the (spinal mounted?) meson beam equipment.  Whether the 
projection equipment could be switched between a weapons role and a Star 
Trigger role is unknown.  The Star Trigger vessels may have to be convoyed 
and protected by significant numbers of warships during any deployment.
     This may be part of the reason why the Sword Worlds haven't been on the 
recieving end of one yet.  The devastation that such a strike would also 
inflict on both Imperial and Confederation systems may also be part of the 
answer.
     <<< SPOILER ALERT >>>














     The current Darrian Star Trigger does not work.  The adventure in CT's 
AM 8, the Darrians, has the PCs being hired to perform a multi-world search 
for archival information regarding the two scientific projects that 
triggered the original Maghiz.  If, IYTU, this mission fails or the 
reason(s) for it is/are not suspected, the Star Trigger is little more than 
an extremely effective bogeyman.
     As a strategic deterrent, the Star Trigger works because BOTH parties, 
the Darrians and their enemies, believe it does.  Zho agents probing Star 
Trigger personnel will learn that those personnel believe that the Trigger 
works and thus "confirm" it's existence.
     One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star 
Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was 
faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon says:
>ObTrav2:  Tod, how do we arrive at various penetration and damage values for
>CT,
>MT, etc.?  FFS might be easy, and maybe we could work our way backwards.
>Other game systems, such as PCCS, are extremely easy to back-calculate.

I was going to actually do some work on my own to find the requisite 
formulae, but that is guaranteed to take a lot longer, I'm sure.  It 
wouldn't be surprising if Tod can recite them from memory.  :->

>Now, I'm up there with Jeff Cooper in wondering why recoil is a problem,
>but then again, I've never tried a .460 Weatherby.  Might make a flincher
>out of me.

Recoil is a problem.  As my right eyebrow can testify.  Every time I'd go 
to the rifle range, the flange on the carrying handle of the M-16A1 would 
kick into my eyebrow.  Never took more than a dozen rounds for the eyebrow 
to be bleeding.  But it didn't stop me from shooting about 238 to 242 out 
of 250 on a consistent basis.  Not competition material, but just shy of 
it.  I got to play with the M-16A2 once and got to qualify with it one time 
before I was discharged.  The butt stock is three-eighths of an inch 
longer, and that helped with eye relief a little.  I did still bleed, but 
it took probably 30 rounds to get me bleeding, and the bruising and 
bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but 
at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier 
to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always 
wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.

A lot of weapons are awkward in the first few rounds of full auto, but can 
be brought back onto target if you continue firing a long or very long 
burst.  Every BAR gunner I've ever talked to said it's very controllable 
and accurate with that technique, for instance.  And a couple of people 
have told me they could hip fire the 5.56 gatling gun accurately that way 
(see the movie 'Predator' for a very fictional example).  The phrase I keep 
hearing from people who've relied on this technique is "you just ride it".

There's a difference between recoil and felt recoil.  One of the main 
things that can be done to reduce felt recoil is change the design of the 
rifle stock from having curves intended to fit your body better to being a 
straight "in line" stock, like the M-16 and most assault rifles and battle 
rifles.  It distributes the forces from the recoil better.

In other words, there are a lot of things that can be done to control or 
manage recoil.  And to some extent, troops can be trained or can train 
themselves to suppress or forget the flinch response.  (Myself as an 
example, above.)  "Flinching is for fairies," is probably how my old friend 
would sum that up.  But I wouldn't expect something with _felt_ recoil 
comparable to a .458 Winchester Magnum to be something you could put on 
general issue to troops, it's just too much for most of them, especially 
when you think about them firing it often hundreds of times per day instead 
of just a couple of times like a big game hunter.  Tod's high performance 
gauss weapon in his previous example was chosen for being at the upper 
limit of what is practical.  For humans.  One might suppose Aslan could 
handle more.  And other races with more radically different designs might 
be more capable of handling much greater.  Just as I expect Vargr can't 
handle as much as humans and many other races even less than that.  Droyne, 
anybody?

By the way, they call it a carrying handle but don't _ever_ carry it that 
way unless you want everyone in the area who outranks you jumping up and 
down and going crazy on you.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <200204071732.DOF00615@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
<snip about weapons, and then a mention of the snub pistol>

I thought that the snub pistol was, like the accelerator 
rifle, something like the Gyrojet of old.

I've been thinking that like Tod says, the diameter of the 
round is too small to have any actual HEAP (HEAT) jet 
effect.  A long time ago, the snub pistol IMTO became an 
over/under pistol firing a rocket round.  The diameter is 
25mm (very impressive if you're looking down the wrong end), 
and the round is essentially a small grenade, not unlike the 
OICW round.  Designed to minimize fragments, except very 
small shaped charge, rather like an HEDP round without the 
extra fragments.  Still, given the backblast, you don't want 
to fire it without a faceshield (which is why users are 
generally in a vacc suit, combat armor, or some such).  Made 
specifically for zero-g combat, and to penetrate suits at 
shipboard ranges.

ObTrav:  There was a great effort in the Phoenix Command 
combat system, in the High Tech supplement to design weapons 
specifically for shipboard use.  These weapons were 
purposefully designed to limit penetration - there was even a 
standard maximum penetration depth in equipment that was 
allowed, so that shipboard equipment that was vital could be 
built with this standoff in mind.  Think about what would 
happen if there was a circular firing squad in Traveller on 
the typical merchant ship bridge - even if we're only using 
shotguns and the occasional laser carbine.  What weapons 
might we consider (including non-lethals) if we're going to 
be able to board - and subsequently use - a ship?

Me, I'm willing to try the sticky foam dispenser.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407111020.027e6d50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5D1E5.379BD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 9:19 AM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

Lanning, I'm getting a bit worried when I see my name appearing in so many
of your posts.  I am not the gauss weapon prophet.

> 
> There have been posts (primarily from Tod Glenn) since my post quoted above
> that let's say strongly suggest it would be unlikely that anyone would
> bother to build gauss weapons that way.

Note that I did a comparison of a gauss and non-gauss versions of the same
rifle.  The rifle in question was the M1A (semi version of the M-14) in
7.62x51mm.  The only difference in performance is that a gauss weapon will
have less recoil firing the same bullet at the same velocity.  This is
solely because there is no expelled propellant by byproducts contributing to
recoil.

[snip]

 
> Please note that I am not _rejecting_ claims from gauss weapon
> proponents.  I am being slow to accept them.  I should also point out what
> I posted earlier:  I am reconsidering my house rule on gauss weapon damage,
> mostly because of things Tod Glenn has said.  I made those house rules many
> years ago and haven't been prompted to change them since.  But maybe I
> will, now.  They're just a science fiction item in a science fiction game,
> and I don't feel it's criminally stupid of me to make gauss weapons IMTU
> behave differently than gauss weapons in someone else's TU.  My players
> have been happy with my rules for twenty years, and generally the ones with
> the most knowledge of military firearms have been the happiest.  That tells
> me that my rules aren't just completely ludicrous.  If my version of gauss
> weapons bothers you, then maybe you will find some relief to know that I
> wholeheartedly agree about those magic snub pistols not being able to
> penetrate armor as well as they canonically do.  IMTU, they don't.  You can
> have a HEAP round in your snub pistol, and it may improve it's penetration
> in many circumstances.  But it will still penetrate more poorly than a HEAP
> round from a standard autopistol.  My usual snub pistol description is
> roughly the .25 auto "lady's gun".

Just bear in mind that HEAP round have to travel slowly and can't be spun or
they won't work.  If you look at the velocities of modern AT missiles,
you'll note that they're very low, and for a reason.  The warhead needs time
to form the penetrator jet.  it's unlikely that snub weapons are going to
have stand-off noses, so velocity will have to be low.  Spinning the
projectile disperses the jet, so that's out too.
> 
> If you're curious about what I would change my house rules to say on gauss
> weapons, here's what I am thinking about maybe doing.  Or I may decide not
> to since it's been fun to play with the rules I'm used to and it's just a
> game.  I'm thinking about crunching the numbers with the formulae helpfully
> provided by Tod Glenn using canonical gauss weapon designs and probably a
> couple or three other designs of my own.  Translate the results back into
> Traveller combat stats.  Work through each of the ammo types I believe
> would be useful and decide what differences to implement for a projectile
> that is much longer, proportionally than comparable gunpowder bullets.  I'm
> guessing that some ammo types will be more expensive and others
> cheaper.  And HEAP may be less effective because higher velocities and
> probably faster twists and smaller diameters can be counterproductive for
> that type of ammo, but perhaps the longer projectile will help.  I am also
> thinking about making the gauss weapon itself a lot more expensive.  Or
> not.  I can think of reasonable arguments both ways.  And making gauss
> weapons more fragile than gunpowder weapons.  Or again, perhaps not.


See above.  HEAP is unusable at high velocities and high rates of spin. A
few other things to consider:  A coil gun requires a ferromagnetic
projectile.  No lead or other material.  If it's a railgun, the armature
(projectile) just has to be conductive.  At hypervelocity, there is little
to be gained using special projectiles.  The canonical description of the
gauss round as a hollow point with an armor-piercing core id far more
complicated that necessary. The example used previously is more than
adequately lethal.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAEENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5D411.379C1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 5:54 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@comcast.net wrote:

> ObTrav: Can the expert spot the vehicle with the railgun?
> Look for the longer, heavy duty barrel, perhaps with an
> external truss.
> 
> A railgun would probably require more rigid construction
> to resist this force, which would be considerable if the weapon
> was designed for very high power (like a vehicle mounted weapon).
> 
> The barrel might be much more substantial than a typical
> slugthrower barrel, which has most of its reinforcement in the
> breech area.  

I remember some photos of the railguns built at the University of Texas for
the Army FMBT project.  They look pretty much identical to conventional
barrels, except for the square bore opening.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5D942.379C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 6:04 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@comcast.net wrote:

> ObTrav2:  Tod, how do we arrive at various penetration and damage values for
> CT,
> MT, etc.?  FFS might be easy, and maybe we could work our way backwards.
> Other game systems, such as PCCS, are extremely easy to back-calculate.

I have copies of both FFS and FFS2.  AFAICT, CT figures are just arbitrary.

FFS2 uses SQRT(ME)/10.5 to calculate damage.  I've never liked determining
damage bases solely on muzzle energy.  Instead, I use my own formula where
damage is bases on actual energy transferred to the target.

I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.  The base human target
is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.  We take the
initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the
remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.  From this we
can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.  We use this energy
to calculate damage.

In the case of things like conventional handguns, there are lots of
published sources with total ballistic gelatin penetrations.  Knowing the
density of this material, we can back calculate the retardation and energy
transferred.

This systems gives a measure of 'actual damage'  and we don't have to relay
on then 3D rules and 'lost energy due to 'shoot through'.

> 
> Now, I'm up there with Jeff Cooper in wondering why recoil is a problem,
> but then again, I've never tried a .460 Weatherby.  Might make a flincher
> out of me.

I shoot my .458 win mag Whitworth Express rifle all the time.  Preferred
loading is 500gn hard cast bullet with 72 gn 4895.  I'm not a big guy, but
if find this load 'stimulation' to shoot.  I've never really been bothered
by recoil.  Most people who shoot this do it only once.  I will say a tight
hold on the rifle is essential.  I probably have done my shoulder any good.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 10:18 AM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Recoil is a problem.  As my right eyebrow can testify.  Every time I'd go
> to the rifle range, the flange on the carrying handle of the M-16A1 would
> kick into my eyebrow.  Never took more than a dozen rounds for the eyebrow
> to be bleeding.  But it didn't stop me from shooting about 238 to 242 out
> of 250 on a consistent basis.

You've got talent.  With the old M16A1, I always put the tip on my nose on
the charging handle to make sure I had exactly the same cheek weld.  I'd
often shoot the M16 from my chin or groin to demonstrate it's lack of
recoil.

> bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but
> at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier
> to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always
> wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.

Try shooting one full auto.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3CB08DED.97126F82@virgin.net>

--------------8640A99E3980EE50F0202E80
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
>
> [snip]
> Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
> 20 km/sec.
>
>
> As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
> APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.  The first example you give is 10%
> of that.  The second example has a free recoil somewhere above the elephant
> gun.

Don't disagree there.  But I was talking about a small infantry weapon, not a
vehicle/free standing anti-armour weapon

Si

--------------8640A99E3980EE50F0202E80
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
"John T. Kwon" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Tod Glenn says
<p>[snip]
<br>Let's crank the numbers.&nbsp; Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile
at
<br>20 km/sec.
<br>&nbsp;
<p>As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
<br>APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.&nbsp; The first example you give
is 10%
<br>of that.&nbsp; The second example has a free recoil somewhere above
the elephant
<br>gun.</blockquote>
Don't disagree there.&nbsp; But I <u>was</u> talking about a small infantry
weapon, not a vehicle/free standing anti-armour weapon
<p>Si</html>

--------------8640A99E3980EE50F0202E80--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020407111020.027e6d50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB08FDE.F6F24BCE@virgin.net>

laning wrote:

> Si quotes me then says:
> >laning wrote:
> >
> > > Let's see if I can express myself better this time.

[huge snip]

Yep.  I have no problem with anything you say.  You did however, have a concern
with the damage from a thin-body penetrator compared (as well as you can) with a
'standard' round and i think I might be able to help there.  One thing about
hypervelocity (and hence hyper energy as it is the velocity squared that more than
compensates for the greatly reduced mass) penetrators doing damage is that the
target area (IIRC) behaves as if it were a fluid, IRRESPECTIVE of what it is made
of (depending of course upon the energy of the penetrator).

I am sure someone will correct me (in the politest possible terms) if i am wrong.

;-)

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB08DED.97126F82@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5DE82.379D4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 11:20 AM, Si at mr.fingle@virgin.net wrote:

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
Tod Glenn says 

[snip] 
Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
20 km/sec. 
 

As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.  The first example you give is 10%
of that.  The second example has a free recoil somewhere above the elephant
gun.
Don't disagree there.  But I was talking about a small infantry weapon, not
a vehicle/free standing anti-armour weapon

A weapon with a 4 gm projectile being fired at 20 km/s is not a small
infantry weapon.  The recoil is obscene.  I'd say an upper limit on free
recoil should be no more than 50 J, with 25 J being more realistic.

Si 


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 13:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 12:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
Message-ID: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

	Okay, so I'm considering writing up my own shipbuilding rules ("Yeah,
yeah, kid, you and everybody else - take a number and wait in line."),
and there were a couple of factors that I haven't seen (or have missed)
in the various ships rules in different editions of Traveller:

	Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 'workstations',
but it seems to me that most ships (at least ones that carry passengers)
would require some sort of galley for food preperation.  Has anyone seen
or worked up rules for the minimum size of a ship's galley, based on the
number of crew and passengers carried?

	Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
on the number of ship's crew and other factors?


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."





________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 14:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun Apr  7 13:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1de72$5c0c6a00$2f7de40c@loki>

Both have always been outside the rules proper though some systems have
made galleys/stores something one could add if they desired.

I remember a lot of debate about the topic once upon a time. The general
conclusion--abhorred by some--was that the stateroom figure subsumed the
common spaces required to support them.

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 14:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 13:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>

--part1_30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 07/04/02 19:10:37 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


> I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.  The base human target
> is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.  We take the
> initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the
> remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.  From this we
> can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.  We use this energy
> to calculate damage.
> 

Isn't 30cm a little thick? 18cm - 20cm is the normal figure I see quoted.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 07/04/02 19:10:37 GMT Daylight Time, webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.&nbsp; The base human target<BR>
is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.&nbsp; We take the<BR>
initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the<BR>
remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.&nbsp; From this we<BR>
can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.&nbsp; We use this energy<BR>
to calculate damage.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Isn't 30cm a little thick? 18cm - 20cm is the normal figure I see quoted.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8D60220.379F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 1:58 PM, CHam628781@aol.com at CHam628781@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 07/04/02 19:10:37 GMT Daylight Time,
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.  The base human target
is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.  We take the
initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the
remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.  From this we
can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.  We use this energy
to calculate damage.


Isn't 30cm a little thick? 18cm - 20cm is the normal figure I see quoted.

Charles


I measured the thickness of a few friends and came up with about 12" from
front to back for an average chest thickness, or 30 cm.  YMMV.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches - correction.
In-Reply-To: <B8D5D942.379C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8D60286.379FA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 11:08 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

I just looked over my calculations and noted that I forgot to divide by 2
when calculating energy. (i.e. e= mv^2/2).  Please note the error.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407154204.033249d0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn, replying to my rifle range scores with the M-16A1:
>You've got talent.  With the old M16A1, I always put the tip on my nose on
>the charging handle to make sure I had exactly the same cheek weld.  I'd
>often shoot the M16 from my chin or groin to demonstrate it's lack of
>recoil.

Thanks, that's encouraging to hear.  And I used the exact same technique 
with my nose on the charging handle to more precisely get the same cheek 
weld.  One of my buddies in boot camp may have done permanent damage to his 
arm by getting too tight a loop sling all day at the range.  He shot well, 
ne'ertheless.  Chin or groin?  The recoil I recall is more than enough to 
discourage me from trying that one.  It was popular for the marksmanship 
instructors and coaches to tell the troops that, "The M-16 fires a .223 
calibre bullet.  That's the same as a .22.  You aren't going to be afraid 
of a .22 are you?"  This was more useful as propaganda than actual 
fact.  Most of the Americans recruited into today's military have no prior 
experience with firearms of any kind so this might work.  They at least 
have heard enough to know that a .22 is a pretty wimpy little thing.


> > bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but
> > at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier
> > to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always
> > wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.
>
>Try shooting one full auto.

I'd love to!  My curiosity will never be satisfied til I've tried out all 
these weapons that I use in gaming.  And who knows, maybe there'll be the 
chance at the big annual WW2 gathering in Reading, Pennsylvania this 
June.  Sort of like a Ren Faire for WW2 enthusiasts, reenactors, costumers 
who like that period, and everyone else.  It includes a three-day 
reenactment of the Battle of the Bulge.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407172540.00aa2c20@pop.wizard.net>

> > bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but
> > at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier
> > to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always
> > wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.
>
>Try shooting one full auto.

As long as I'm at it, I'd be very interested in shooting the Italian 
BM-59  (I think it's 59), which was essentially the M-14 with some 
improvements.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DE82.379D4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB08DED.97126F82@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407172827.00acfec0@pop.wizard.net>

>
>A weapon with a 4 gm projectile being fired at 20 km/s is not a small
>infantry weapon.  The recoil is obscene.  I'd say an upper limit on free
>recoil should be no more than 50 J, with 25 J being more realistic.

Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread, mentioning the 
ability of various Traveller races to cope with recoil, I should have also 
mentioned battle dress.  That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more 
recoil.  But how much?

-Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F33B1HQroJCIoo8oEoL000062ea@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "How about the Ilelesh Revolt? Didn't the Imperium scrub the sector
capital clean of life as an example to others?"


Mr. Boleyn,

     Thanks, I forgot about that one.
     The Imperium evacuated the population from Ilelish's tropical regions 
and "scrubbed" the "equatorial regions free from life."
     I'd assume (a shocking habit) that the people involved were simply 
moved to the planet's temperate zones rather than off world.  Having the 
remaining population living next door to the lesson being "taught" would 
fulfill the Imperium's requirements nicely.
     The IN then sterilized the equatorial zone with a bombardment of 
enhanced radiation warheads (neutron bombs).  This would allow them to kill 
off everything without triggering a "nuclear winter" of sorts.  They may 
have followed up the bombardment with liberal use of large meson gun spinal 
mounts to "pitchfork" the terrain.
     Ilelish's equatorial zone must have looked like a baked and barren 
jumble of craters, tells, and fissures.  New Mordor anyone?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <200204072135.DON00704@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning asks
>
>Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread, 
>mentioning the ability of various Traveller races to cope 
>with recoil, I should have also mentioned battle dress.  
>That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more recoil.  But 
>how much?
>

Good question.  I've always wondered about this, because if 
you could carry large weapons and handle high recoil, you 
would have a semi-auto rifle that fired high velocity 20mm 
(not low velocity 20mm like the OICW).

20mm californium rounds, that is.  The one part of Striker I 
really liked.  Hit someone in battledress and watch the 
little mushroom cloud.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:55:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:55:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB168FD.22000.23BF80@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 11:15, Tod Glenn wrote:

> You've got talent.  With the old M16A1, I always put the tip on my nose
> on the charging handle to make sure I had exactly the same cheek weld. 
> I'd often shoot the M16 from my chin or groin to demonstrate it's lack
> of recoil.

My preferred method of supporting the M16A1 was to have my right hand 
(I'm a lefty) open and simply rest the forend on my palm. I found the 
rifle would bounce and then recover to the same point of aim all by 
itself, which made getting a good  sight picture for following shots 
quick and easy. Don't try this with the AUG - you'll lose it and 
probably get the optic sight banged into your eyebrow. It may be 
heavier but it's rather butt heavy so it jumps quite a bit more than 
the M16A1.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D60220.379F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 14:03, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I measured the thickness of a few friends and came up with about 12"
> from front to back for an average chest thickness, or 30 cm.  YMMV.

Do you give out less damage for hits in thinner places, or do you just 
assume a poor damage roll reflects this? And wouldn't the chest tend to 
be less dense than other parts of the body due to the 'air-filled' 
lungs?

Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth 
for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and 
for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females 
it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing. 
Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how 
old the data is.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407180357.0331dc40@pop.wizard.net>

Perry says he's developing shipbuilding rules:
>         Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 
> 'workstations',
>but it seems to me that most ships (at least ones that carry passengers)
>would require some sort of galley for food preperation.  Has anyone seen
>or worked up rules for the minimum size of a ship's galley, based on the
>number of crew and passengers carried?

Nothing I'm aware of.  And you make a very good point.  Perhaps finding Web 
sites or actual books on kitchen design is the best thing for 
that.  Especially restaurant kitchens.

We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including ironing.  Every 
service a hotel provides, basically.

>         Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
>amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
>other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
>that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
>rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
>on the number of ship's crew and other factors?

There are rules in all or most versions of Traveller for baggage and cargo 
allowances for passengers.  I assume baggage goes in their stateroom and 
cargo is containerized and placed in the cargo hold.  Ship's lockers are 
certainly recommended, and usually appear in published deck plans and 
privately designed ones.  But that doesn't leave pantry space, linen space, 
etc.  You might want to find a textbook on hotel planning, and look at 
military field manuals and technical manuals for logistics planning.  And 
surely the real life sailors have some knowledge about this.

In fact maybe both your questions and all related questions can be answered 
using real world naval architecture references.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEODCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Just finished reading a hardcopy of AK wounds in Vietnam.
A medical summary report on "Da Nang lung" which was 
pulmonary edema brought on by unregulated overuse of 
intravenous fluid replacement (without regard to electrolyte
balance).  Death was the result, usually two to three days
after successful repair operations.

The point I nearly missed is that most rifle wounds in the
prone are plunging fire which enters the shoulder area,
and failing deflection on the shoulder blade, penetrates in
a downward diagonal towards the pelvis.  This caused a
lot of damage, which, if it missed kidneys and major
blood vessels, was not immediately fatal.  It did
necessitate a lot of repair, and the lack of knowledge
in the 1960s about fluid replacement resulted in death.

The distance from the shoulder blade to the hip socket,
taken at a diagonal, is a considerable distance.  Most AK
rounds evidently stopped after traveling this far in the
body. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407180357.0331dc40@pop.wizard.net>
References: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407151942.0248eec0@mail.verizon.net>

>We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including 
>ironing.  Every service a hotel provides, basically.

Even hookers?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB168FD.22000.23BF80@localhost>
References: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407181218.033aa1f0@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert:
>My preferred method of supporting the M16A1 was to have my right hand
>(I'm a lefty) open and simply rest the forend on my palm. I found the
>rifle would bounce and then recover to the same point of aim all by
>itself, which made getting a good  sight picture for following shots
>quick and easy. Don't try this with the AUG - you'll lose it and
>probably get the optic sight banged into your eyebrow. It may be
>heavier but it's rather butt heavy so it jumps quite a bit more than
>the M16A1.

Yes.  You want your rifle sling stretched nice and tight, partly so that 
you can wedge your foreward hand into the narrow angle between the taut 
sling and the ...argh how can I have _forgotten_ the proper 
nomenclature!  Just shoot me now.

Anyway, with your hand tightly wedged in, and a fairly stable triangle of 
tension between that forward hand, its elbow nicely resting on the ground 
or your knee, and the opposite shoulder, you should go right back to the 
same sight picture pretty quickly and naturally.

Firing in the "offhand position" was always the hardest for me.  Prone, 
kneeling, sitting, or anything else you can do to brace against something 
immovable (like the ground or a wall or a tree) makes a huge, huge 
difference.  Firing with nothing in particular to help you hold the thing 
steady is tough.  Standing, "rapid" fire, is tricky.  I started out just 
doing it through sheer concentration and did okay.  I then experimented 
with figure eight and other similar techniques when I heard about 
them.  Which were good for improving my score a little but seemed to have 
very little practical application on the battlefield.  I think I would have 
been great at trench warfare.  I don't know about patrolling, though.  Even 
someone who doesn't anticipate or flinch is going to have a tough time 
aiming at and hitting anything if everybody is running/walking around.

For referees with little or no experience shooting, please keep in mind the 
importance of firing from a braced position (prone is probably the most 
ideal) and also the importance of having many seconds to aim at an unmoving 
target.  Or if it's moving, then moving very steadily and predictably is 
almost as good as immobile.  Also, untrained or insufficiently trained 
personnel have a strong tendency to anticipate the recoil by actually 
raising the front of the weapon themselves as they squeeze the trigger.

I suspect anticipation is the single greatest cause of close-range pistol 
combats that result in nobody being hit by a bullet.  It happens all the 
time.  Anticipation, fear, adrenaline, inability to concentrate well enough 
to remember to try to use even the most elementary and easy principles of 
marksmanship.  The more I learn about how many reasons there are for people 
not hitting their opponent in combat, the more respect I develop for Alvin 
York.  And the more important I think it is to deal with your fear ahead of 
time, so you can you put it out of your mind during combat.

--Laning
"Fear is the mind killer."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
References: <B8D60220.379F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407183334.027f11c0@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert:
>Do you give out less damage for hits in thinner places, or do you just
>assume a poor damage roll reflects this? And wouldn't the chest tend to
>be less dense than other parts of the body due to the 'air-filled'
>lungs?
>
>Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth
>for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and
>for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females
>it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing.
>Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how
>old the data is.

Reporter:  "How can you shoot children and teenagers like that, Corporal?"
Corporal:  "Easy.  You use a lighter load."

-Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEODCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407183737.028bbdd0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon:
>The distance from the shoulder blade to the hip socket,
>taken at a diagonal, is a considerable distance.  Most AK
>rounds evidently stopped after traveling this far in the
>body.

Useful to keep in mind when shooting at K'Kree or the like.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEODCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB173E1.15599.4E49DB@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 18:15, John T. Kwon wrote:

> The distance from the shoulder blade to the hip socket,
> taken at a diagonal, is a considerable distance.  Most AK
> rounds evidently stopped after traveling this far in the
> body. 

IME a 7.62x39mm round when fired from an SKS, which has a longer barrel 
than an AK-47, at a goat from a fairly short range (maybe 20 yards) 
will travel through its entire length (in this case approximately 2 
feet) and stop inside the skin without exiting. That would be about the 
same distance, allowing for the elasticity of the goat's skin. The goat 
died effectively instantly because the bullet passed through its heart 
and the major vessels on top of it.

Just another data point.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407181218.033aa1f0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CB168FD.22000.23BF80@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB17502.746.52B49D@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 18:32, laning wrote:

> For referees with little or no experience shooting, please keep in mind
> the importance of firing from a braced position (prone is probably the
> most ideal) and also the importance of having many seconds to aim at an
> unmoving target.  Or if it's moving, then moving very steadily and
> predictably is almost as good as immobile.

But if they're ducking and weaving and bolting from cover to cover in 
an unpredicable manner you can pretty much forget more than the most 
basic aiming. In these cases I recommend a machinegun.

Also followup shots from a trained shooter are much faster than the 
first shot, as you've already done most of the aiming for the first 
shot - all you're doing for the later shots is correcting for the 
effects of recoil.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB17502.746.52B49D@localhost>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOECGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Rupert Boleyn says
[But if they're ducking and weaving and bolting from cover to cover in 
an unpredicable manner you can pretty much forget more than the most 
basic aiming. In these cases I recommend a machinegun.]

At ranges up to about thirty yards, using a pump-action paintball
gun with crude post sights, I was able to hit people who were running,
dodging, popping their heads up over cover intermittently...

That's not full auto, nor is it a high velocity weapon.

No problem.

The running people don't dodge nearly as much as they think.  This is
more of a factor where time of flight of the round is significant.  Figure
a tenth of a second for every hundred yards of flight, and you can see
that the dodge is really something that has to be anticipated rather 
than seen.  Below "tenth of a second" range, dodging is relatively 
ineffective, and tracking a running target is largely a matter of practice.
I had an instructor who claimed to kill VC bikers on 1-beer bets - that is,
he would use an M-14, and if he got them on the first round, he got a beer.
Some of his friends from that time laughed, because they remember him
*always* getting his beer.

Oddly, I do better on moving targets if I'm standing.

People who peek out from behind cover only get to do it once with me.
What's even more funny is that most of the people I've hit in 
paintball like this probably saw the one I put right over their
head to make sure of where the next one was going. 

ObTrav:  Your enemy will use the terrain around you to spot the
fall of his fire, and will adjust accordingly.  If you stay in the
same spot, and peek out repeatedly, you're going to get nailed.  They
may even resort to tricks to get you to look twice.  There are many
anecdotes about people being killed when they "just look".

ObTrav: Shooting at a moving target is a matter of practice if the
target moves in a straight line, regardless of velocity. The exception
comes when the target is "uncertain" as in the next ObTrav.

ObTrav: Dodging effectiveness is the result of "movement uncertainty".
The best explanation of this is that after you release the round,
the target has time to move.  For a target at 500 yards, this can be
nearly half a second -- unless you're using a laser rifle.  Imagine
trying to anticipate whether or not a moving man will stop, bend down,
turn or not nearly 1/2 second into the future.  So you put a lot of 
rounds into his general vicinity with a machinegun.  They say that 
the real sniper is the man who can anticipate this movement. The only
combat system that I've seen that models this is PCCS.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
Message-ID: <OF0BD69FC0.8B0C14DC-ONCA256B94.00752218@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

I haven't seen "GDWGAMES" around for a while.

I know Loren was having access problems - does anyone know if that is 
still the case?

Failing that, perhaps you could select one of the following:
        1.      On holidays;
        2.      Attempting to retrieve gear from his fabled lock-up on the 
other side of the US;
        3.      Snowed under (and as he's in Texas, you _know_ I mean this 
as an analogy for workload! ;-);
        4.      Banned from 'Net access by the Illuminati;
        5.      Stuck in a box in Warehouse 23 (maybe with some Zhodani 
infiltrators, cf. Challenge 60 or thereabouts);
        6.      Shipped out on a _Donosev_ (along with Stuart Ferris, 
didn't he just get his Surveyor's Cert.?);
        7.      All of the above;
        8.      None of the above [insert your version of events here].

Que?

<sigh> It must be Monday.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
Message-ID: <200204072341.DOR00933@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I keep wondering about those passenger prices.  It doesn't 
make any sense.  If I fly from Washington, DC to Newark, NJ, 
it's cheaper than flying from Washington, DC to Los Angeles, 
CA.

There is also a hub system in the US, which rewards you for 
transferring in places like Cincinnati and Atlanta, but I'll 
leave that out.

So, we've got two merchant ships.  One is Jump-1, and goes to 
and from a nearby star.  The other is Jump-5, and goes to 
another star 5 parsecs away.  Theoretically, if there's a 
Jump-1 route, you could take the Jump-1 ship to get to the 
Jump-5 destination, but it would take five tickets to get 
there.  Now, if I'm a Jump-5 ship, and I'm going 5 parsecs, 
the next fastest ship (a Jump-4 perhaps) can get you there 
for two tickets.  So what should I charge you?  I'm betting 
that I could charge more than the price of a single ticket, 
and you would still take my ship because it's less and you 
get there a week ahead of time.

Has anyone hashed out what ticket prices really should be?
Or cargo transport, for that matter.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOECGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <3CB17502.746.52B49D@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB18225.32194.860812@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 19:09, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn says
> [But if they're ducking and weaving and bolting from cover to cover in
> an unpredicable manner you can pretty much forget more than the most
> basic aiming. In these cases I recommend a machinegun.]
> 
> At ranges up to about thirty yards, using a pump-action paintball
> gun with crude post sights, I was able to hit people who were running,
> dodging, popping their heads up over cover intermittently...
> 
> That's not full auto, nor is it a high velocity weapon.
> 
> No problem.

That's like using a shipboard laser at sub-light second ranges though - 
they don't have time to move out of the way. Besides at that range 
doing much the same thing I didn't use the sights most of the time, but 
just pointed the gun at the victim - it was faster and just as (in) 
accurate.
 
> The running people don't dodge nearly as much as they think.

That's probably because running and dodging are generally incompatible.

> Oddly, I do better on moving targets if I'm standing.

I'm not surprised - it's easier to get a smooth motion and a good 
follow-through.
 
> People who peek out from behind cover only get to do it once with me.
> What's even more funny is that most of the people I've hit in paintball
> like this probably saw the one I put right over their head to make sure
> of where the next one was going. 

People who peek from behind cover more than once deserve what they get, 
IMO. So do people who come to a firefight without backup and buddies.

> ObTrav: Dodging effectiveness is the result of "movement uncertainty".
> The best explanation of this is that after you release the round, the
> target has time to move.  For a target at 500 yards, this can be nearly
> half a second -- unless you're using a laser rifle.  Imagine trying to
> anticipate whether or not a moving man will stop, bend down, turn or not
> nearly 1/2 second into the future.  So you put a lot of rounds into his
> general vicinity with a machinegun.  They say that the real sniper is
> the man who can anticipate this movement. The only combat system that
> I've seen that models this is PCCS.

IIRC you needed the advanced expansion for this.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020407234850.57151.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
If that retinal scanner makes the crew sit through
three or four rescans before it lets them in, or
mistakes them for a terrorist a couple times a week,
expect the retinal scanner to be bypassed before the
ship comes out of its first jump.
END QUOTE

Thats what fire axes are for!

HAL:Come on Dave be reasonable! Put the axe down!
Dave, Dave! NOOOOOOOO...0).^%^$&9&##5.

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 18:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 17:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <20020408000859.81953.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
People who strap on a PGMP-15 to go to the
'fresher annoy me,  IMTU they'll have to make
do with a shotgun.
END QUOTE

Well if nasty things happen to you every time you go
to the fresher you get paranoid! In my old group
(non-trav) we had a particularly nasty Ref, it got to
the point where my characters refused to go any where
with out two other armed characters! And I still died
alot! Though I survived longer than most. The greatest
thing ever was all the munchkins we had in the group
they where very good for cannon fodder ;) After a
while it got quite hard to walk anywhere due to the
amount of gear I was carrying. 

Me:All right essential equipment only, 3 LAW's check,
powered battle armour check, heavy machine gun check,
2000 rounds check, 12 white phosporous grenades check,
12 frag grenades check, semi-auto shotgun check, 200
rounds solid check, 200 rounds flechette check,
satelite phone check, 12mm pistol check, 100 rounds
12mm check, 20kg C4 check, 2 litres holy water check
(can never be to careful), 6 customised throwing
penguins check. <To other PC's> Okay Im going to the
bathroom now. If you here me scream or Im not back in
15 minutes call in an airstrike.

;)

James (Oh no, not Cthulhu again!) Ramsay

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 18:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 17:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
Message-ID: <95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9@aol.com>

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Last time I spoke to him (just a couple of days ago, actually) he had just
acquired a new computer for home use and was in the process of getting
set up on it. I imagine we'll see GDWGAMES online again before too much
longer.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Last time I spoke to him (just a couple of days ago, actually) he had just
<BR>acquired a new computer for home use and was in the process of getting
<BR>set up on it. I imagine we'll see GDWGAMES online again before too much
<BR>longer.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 18:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr  7 17:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
References: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0E12F.6A9B3511@premier.net>


knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> 
>         Okay, so I'm considering writing up my own shipbuilding rules ("Yeah,
> yeah, kid, you and everybody else - take a number and wait in line."),
> and there were a couple of factors that I haven't seen (or have missed)
> in the various ships rules in different editions of Traveller:
> 
>         Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 'workstations',
> but it seems to me that most ships (at least ones that carry passengers)
> would require some sort of galley for food preperation.  Has anyone seen
> or worked up rules for the minimum size of a ship's galley, based on the
> number of crew and passengers carried?

FF&S2 describes two types of galleys for food preparation: Ordinary and
Full.  An Ordinary galley requires .2 m^3 per person served, with a
minimum size of 4 m^3.  Meager through Good rations can be competently
prepared in an Ordinary galley (1 cook per 40 sophonts).  A Full galley
requires .3 m^3 per person served, with a minimum size of 12 m^3. 
Preparation of Excellent meals requires a Full galley and a cook with
Steward 3+ or Cook 2+ (1 cook per 20 sophonts if preparing Excellent
meals; 1 cook per 40 sophonts otherwise).  Food storage is discussed in
Tables 211 and 212; volume required for a given number of sophont-weeks
of rations depends on food quality and TL.

Larger AuricTech designs tend to have sufficient Full galleys to support
a full complement of crew and passengers, along with an equal capacity
in Ordinary galleys.  When such ships are operating with a standard
complement, the Ordinary galleys are generally used as "snack bars," and
are attached to facilities such as crew lounges or the Combat
Information Center; if a ship is packed to double occupancy, the
Ordinary galleys provide the required "overflow" food preparation
capacity to serve the additional occupants.
> 
>         Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
> amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
> other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
> that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
> rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
> on the number of ship's crew and other factors?

Again, FF&S2 discusses ship's lockers, though in less detail.  Page 15
states that the volume required is "designer's choice," with suggested
values of .5 m^3 per 1,000 m^3 of ship or per crew member.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
civilians.  It has little or no military application,
contrary to popular mythos.
END QUOTE

True. But......

They don't like it up 'em mister mainwaring, they
don't like it up 'em ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:06:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:06:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020407190105.2914E27A15@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c1de9a$066819a0$e35e8690@computer>

> From: Robert Houghton
> What about the ratio of 'civilian' deaths to 'military' deaths? Who gets
> the award for most civilian casulties compared to military casulties,
> not overall numbers?

Hmm.  Well, if you find an example where there were *no* military
casualties, that ratio will give you a division by zero error.  Try the PNG
intervention in Vanuatu in 1980 for an example of this - the *only* casualty
was a civilian.

Of the wars I listed (WWII, Taiping Rebellion, and WWI), the civilian
casualties were huge in the first two, and *relatively* small in the latter.

Another interesting mass-death situation is the Stalinist forced
collectivizations in the early 30s.  This was essentially a civil war,
although militarily it was one sided.  It was a product of pure
incompetence - industry had been neglected, so the cities couldn't afford to
buy food from the peasants - result:  starvation, forcible requisitioning
and massacres.

China has had a few "interesting" times.  The decades before 1949 saw almost
continuous civil wars, foreign invasions, famines, epidemics, and all the
other horrors you can imagine.  After that, there was the famine that
coincided with the "Great Leap Forward", reversing the Leap's direction, and
the civil war called the "Cultural Revolution", when rival factions
organised mobs to attack each other.

The partition of India was a delightful little blood bath, too.  There are
just so many other cases, too.  John's selection of horrors was actually
comparatively mild, if you think about it.

My guess for biggest pile of dead civilians would still be WWII, though.  As
a ratio, it's harder to say, because of the absurd case of no military
casualties.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
And how would you rate the Colonial Marine unit in
"Aliens"?
END QUOTE

One word. F*#&ing officers.
Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
interview on the DVD). 

James (Who owns the DVD of Aliens even though he has
no DVD player. And also wants to join the USMC because
of Aliens even though he is Australian.)


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS War what is it good for, absolutely nothing (apart f
 rom the Industrial Military complex)
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17918@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

> I can't buy into that at all, John.  Sorry.  Wars seem no more
> omnipresent today than they were in classical times.  The only
> relationships I would draw are the motivation for vengeance that
> connects the survivors to a mass slaughter, and Malthusian effects of
> reducing population pressure by reducing population.  Two forces that
> relationships that seem in opposition to each other.  Even if you
> massacre _all_ your enemy, even the children below age six, you will
> put yourself high on the rest of the world's Enemies To Destroy list. 
> There will come the day you are on the losing side in a war, and
> genocide is not a precedent that you'd like to have around.


John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 
I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because 
humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill 
that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate 
thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in 
Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost 
any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something 
separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before. 
 
The three examples above are only those examples I know of with 
the highest death toll, tens of thousands were also been killed in 
Indonesia in the 1960s and in the ruins of Yugoslavia.  

Combat lethality may have gone down, but death tolls in conflicts 
have certainly gone *way* up.

From Me:
Unfortunately it seems that as the leathility of the battlefield increases,
the likelihood of inter-state war (ie between two countries) has decreased.
So conflicts largely around the globe, present US campaign excluded, are
internal disputes. And when it is internal it is when genocide and other
nasty elimination stuff, happens the most. Especially when you have western
industrial powers that are unwilling to become involved in 'Nation Building'
and actually step in and say 'hey man, killing your own people is wrong'.
Fortunately that seems to be happening a bit more now. 

The sad thing is for Afghanistan is that  the best thing that ever happened
to them, I hope in the long run that is, was September 11. Cause there was
no way in hell anyone was going to do anything about it otherwise.

My 0.02 of course. 


Mikey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
In-Reply-To: <200204072341.DOR00933@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407180641.00a07670@mindspring.com>

At 07:41 PM 4/7/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I keep wondering about those passenger prices.  It doesn't
>make any sense.  If I fly from Washington, DC to Newark, NJ,
>it's cheaper than flying from Washington, DC to Los Angeles,
>CA.

Wrong analogy, think steamships in the days before regular air travel.

Passengers could get (relatively) cheap passage between large established 
ports, say Southampton and New York, they were serviced by large, regular 
liners.  Getting from London to Mombassa involved trips on small freighters 
with a few extra staterooms, any number of stops and delays, and being 
charged whatever the market could get away with.  Think the freighter in 
"Raiders of the Lost Ark."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:30:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:30:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <20020407234850.57151.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407181125.009efb90@mindspring.com>

At 09:48 AM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>QUOTE
>If that retinal scanner makes the crew sit through
>three or four rescans before it lets them in, or
>mistakes them for a terrorist a couple times a week,
>expect the retinal scanner to be bypassed before the
>ship comes out of its first jump.
>END QUOTE
>
>Thats what fire axes are for!
>
>HAL:Come on Dave be reasonable! Put the axe down!
>Dave, Dave! NOOOOOOOO...0).^%^$&9&##5.

"Computer, if you don't open that exit hatch this moment I shall zap 
straight off to your major data banks and reprogram you with a very large 
ax, got that?"

<silence>

"Right.  Get the ax."

<door opens>

Zaphod Beeblebrox


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
   - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
In-Reply-To: <OF0BD69FC0.8B0C14DC-ONCA256B94.00752218@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <000601c1de9d$a1a80760$2f7de40c@loki>

david.d.jaques-watson supposes, "4. Banned from 'Net access by the
Illuminati;"

Maybe the Illuminati are just preventing you from receiving GDWGames
copious daily posts filled with detailed information you are not
prepared to read.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407180641.00a07670@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOGCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Douglas Berry says
[Passengers could get (relatively) cheap passage between large established
ports, say Southampton and New York, they were serviced by large, regular
liners.  Getting from London to Mombassa involved trips on small freighters
with a few extra staterooms, any number of stops and delays, and being
charged whatever the market could get away with.  Think the freighter in
"Raiders of the Lost Ark." ] endBlock

Then let's consider a frontier. No established trade routes.
You can either take a Jump-2 ship to a destination 5 parsecs away
through intermediate planets at 8,000 cr per jump (three jumps total,
24,000 cr), or you can take my Jump-5 ship, and I charge you 20,000 cr
for the same middle passage.  It's a one off, and I can get you and
your friends there earlier.

Which makes me wonder where they come up with the idea of those
prices.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
Message-ID: <20020407.215033.-132267.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 19:15:43 -0500 John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
writes:

> FF&S2 describes two types of galleys for food preparation: 

> Again, FF&S2 discusses ship's lockers, though in less detail.  

Thanks for the info.  I do own a copy of FFS2, but tend to go blind after
awhile reading through all those tables.

Again, thanks.


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <20020408022950.69084.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Or Ha-Un batteries (Batteries made from a mixture of
Handwavium and Unobtainium)...
END QUOTE

I believe the equation is Ha+Un = TU ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hull designs, deck plans, yadda yadda
Message-ID: <200204080233.DOX00653@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

A ship is a pressure vessel, right? I'm trying to think of a 
reason that you would waste space on a "hallway".  I'm 
thinking of the deck plan for a needle configuration, and I'm 
thinking that it would be similar to a modern submarine, with 
a long tapered nose.

The deck plan of a submarine came to mind, and I don't 
remember seeing "hallways".  

Are there any deck plans of a modern submarine on the web?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>

At 11:08 AM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:

>One word. F*#&ing officers.
>Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
>officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
>enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
>interview on the DVD).

OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's 
all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window 
as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get 
Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.  In my view, those 
are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:39:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:39:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOGCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407180641.00a07670@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193614.009ffac0@mindspring.com>

At 09:38 PM 4/7/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Then let's consider a frontier. No established trade routes.
>You can either take a Jump-2 ship to a destination 5 parsecs away
>through intermediate planets at 8,000 cr per jump (three jumps total,
>24,000 cr), or you can take my Jump-5 ship, and I charge you 20,000 cr
>for the same middle passage.  It's a one off, and I can get you and
>your friends there earlier.
>
>Which makes me wonder where they come up with the idea of those
>prices.

People with very little experience in travel.

GT: Far Trader does a much better job of modelling the actual flow of 
passenger prices.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001501c1dea7$7bed0480$0b01a8c0@duck>

>      Intersecting meson beams being used as some sort of active sensor
> system.  The beams also need to intersect at a "shallow", or obtuse, angle
> with each other.  The beams in the case of Tanis system were projected
from
> two widely seperated locations the system's planetoid belt.

Actually, one beam was from a GG moon, the other from Darrian itself.

>      This adds some complexity to any deploymeny of the Star Trigger. ...
> Two ships would then be a minimum; one to release the probe and project a
> beam, the other to project the second beam.

The original (non-working Star Trigger) didn't know anything about the
meson interference project.  They thought the stellar probe itself caused
the flares.  Therefore, the original operation of the Star Trigger would
only require a single ship.

For an operational deployment, I would imagine that three ships would be
needed.  The two meson ships, and a much smaller "delivery" ship.  (Which
could possibly have to be sacrificed.)

>      IIRC, the effects aren't seen for many hours and, presumably, the
meson
> beams need to operated for that entire length of time.

This is not stated, and there is at least one hint that they don't.  I got
the impression that once the proper convergence was achieved, it was pretty
much over.  The wait was for the effects to reach you.

>      All of this makes the Star Trigger a rather finicky device.  ...

While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I don't
see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the trick
is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it.

>      This may be part of the reason why the Sword Worlds haven't been on
the
> recieving end of one yet.  The devastation that such a strike would also
> inflict on both Imperial and Confederation systems may also be part of the
> answer.

The reason the Sword Worlds never received a flare was for two reasons:
1) They are too close.  The Darrians would suffer from the EMP results as
   well as the Sword Worlders, unless they went *deep* into SW territory.
2) The Star Trigger did not become operational until after the Fifth FW.
   After the FFW, the Sword Worlds were, quite frankly, not much of a threat
   to the Darrians.

From what I can tell, after the FFW the Darrians had very few external
threats.  The only annoyance (besides the fractured Sword Worlds) seems to
be Garoo!  And no matter how annoying Garoo is, they just can't be worth
the effort and political backlash of using the Star Trigger.

> ...  If, IYTU, this mission fails or the
> reason(s) for it is/are not suspected, the Star Trigger is little more
than
> an extremely effective bogeyman.

While you can do whatever you want IYTU, in the OTU the Star Trigger does
work.

>      One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star
> Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was
> faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.

This is a great point.  It never really dawned on me, but you are
absolutely correct!  I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an
incredible accomplishment in its own right.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 21:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun Apr  7 20:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407231301.0210b390@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:49 PM 4/7/2002, knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>Okay, so I'm considering writing up my own shipbuilding rules

Cool!

>Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 'workstations' [...]
>Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
>amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
>other sundries.

Yes to both; "traditional" Traveller starship construction rules assumed 
that these, as well as other habitability needs (freshers, corridors, 
lifts, common areas, recreational facilities, etc.) are included in the 
canonical 4 dtons per person stateroom requirement.

When drawing deckplans, I generally allocate between 2 and 3 dtons for the 
actual stateroom, and use the remaining 1-2 dtons/stateroom for galley, 
storage, etc.  Remember that prior to FF&S, the Traveller starship 
construction rules were fairly loose, and fudging items like this was 
generally negligible in the long run.

I believe FF&S2 has rules for both provisions and preparation facilities.

Back in the CT days, I used to have a house rule that for extended duration 
missions (longer than 30 days), ships had to allocate 1% of the ship's 
total volume per month of provisions.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 21:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 20:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEOICGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_AAW+O329uHELj9/oA8bCnw)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Just looking at an interactive cruise ship deck plan.
http://dvo.free.fr/home.html

The standard prefab ship's cabin is 2.9 x 5 m or
2.9 x 5.5m.  This comes with two twin beds, shower,
hair dryer, tv/vcr, refrigerator w/soft drinks/minibar,
personal safe, telephone. closet, small desk, small
table, clothes drawers. The difference in the room
space is taken up by a different size desk.

Assuming a 3 meter ceiling, this is a little over 3 dTons.

Not bad, considering the amount of space.  This leaves
0.9 dTons of space for other purposes. But looking at 
the "hallways", I'm sure this excess is all used up before
you ever get to the dining rooms, etc.

If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area
of comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen,
restaurant kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.

_________________________________
There cannot be a crisis next week.  My schedule is already full.


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 21:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun Apr  7 20:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <001501c1dea7$7bed0480$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407233535.0201a0f0@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:45 PM 4/7/2002, Mike West wrote:
>[Somebody else said:]
>>One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star 
>>Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was 
>>faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.
>
>It never really dawned on me, but you are absolutely correct

Actually, it was hinted at: the Darrians are supposed to be Known Space's 
experts on stellar phenomena.  They faked the demonstration by being able 
to predict (far enough in advance) an appropriate naturally-occurring 
stellar phenomena, and then deploying ships to the site in time for the 
Star Trigger to be able to take credit for causing it.  IMHO, this is the 
rough equivalent of claiming to have an Earthquake Projector, and "proving" 
this claim by predicting a significant and unexpected earthquake well in 
advance.

I'm sure the use of Darrian military security around the site of the 
demonstration didn't hurt, either.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEOICGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20020408040109.7500F27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/07/02 at 11:35 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@comcast.net> said:

>If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
>meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area of
>comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen, restaurant
>kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.

Why 3 meters for deck to overhead?  It may be standard, but a lot of
that overhead is going to be wasted space. Two and a half meters is a
little over 8 feet, and that should be plenty. This gives you 5 - 1.5
meter squares per dton.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408000718.0284f8d0@pop.wizard.net>

James Ramsay:
>James (Who owns the DVD of Aliens even though he has
>no DVD player. And also wants to join the USMC because
>of Aliens even though he is Australian.)

We'll gladly take you, son.  You don't have to be a U.S. citizen to be a 
U.S. Marine.  I shared a barracks room for a year with a Lebanese Christian 
who was still a Lebanese citizen.  Contact the closest American consulate 
if you're serious.  Be sure to be able to do lots of pull ups from a dead 
hang and run three miles in under say 24 minutes.

And when you get off the plane to go to the Marine Corps Recruit Depot, 
just remember these two words:  "yellow footprints".  <WEG>

Much more serious advice.  Possibly the most important advice you will ever 
get in your life.  Find an MOS that gives you the training and expertise 
you want to use in your civilian career after you get it, and get that 
guaranteed in writing and signed by an officer.  Do not accept any talk no 
matter how reasonable or persuasive as a substitute.  Get the MOS you want, 
guaranteed.  In writing.  In writing.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
References: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>

Doug Berry regarding the film 'Aliens':
>OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's 
>all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window 
>as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.
>
>Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get 
>Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.  In my view, 
>those are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.

He was a brave fool, but a fool nonetheless.  But that's to be expected as 
the training, organization, and doctrine of the entire organization seemed 
to have been designed by the same.

Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units in 
Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no provision 
whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up against the 
Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win because of their 
balanced organization and integral combat and logistical support, despite 
their major technological disadvantage.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

laning says

[Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units in
Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no provision
whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up against the
Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win because of their
balanced organization and integral combat and logistical support, despite
their major technological disadvantage.] endBlock

Well then, I guess it's up to us to remedy that.

I had always wanted to do an entire orbital assault ship complete with its
marine complement (down to the last little bit).  Would need additional
ships capable of landing supplies, setting up landing fields, etc.  There's
a lot more to a successful landing than ships that can pound the planet into
rubble and a single shipload of marines.

Ever wonder why the naval units don't have pickets, reconnaissance,
minesweepers, etc?  No hospital ship, either.  I guess the Marines would
have nowhere to evac to if they're wounded.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB0F014.30539.36165A5@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020408044045.02AAD279F0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/08/02 at 01:19 AM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
said:

>On 7 Apr 2002 at 9:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

>> ObTrav:  To be controllable in full auto, I would think we would want
>> the free recoil down in the M-16 range (which is dubious, if you've ever
>> tried to hit something at 100 yards on full auto with the M-16).  I've
>> also noticed that as soon as recoil levels go over, say, a light rifle
>> in .243, people begin to notice, and when they notice, they either
>> flinch, or are apprehensive about firing, especially the first round.

>They do? Even my sisters didn't consider the SMLE to be excessive
>once  they were adults. It was a bit heavy when we were 10 or 12,
>though.  I've always thought that recoil isn't significant until
>you're dealing  with light, light .270 Winchesters, light .30-06's
>and up.

I had a problem with a 12 gauge when I was a kid. <g> I didn't even
notice there was recoil with a .22 rifle.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
Message-ID: <20020407.214938.-3991.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 23:01:11 -0500 "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
writes:
> On 04/07/02 at 11:35 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@comcast.net> said:
> 
> >If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
> >meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area of
> >comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen, 
> restaurant kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.
> 
> Why 3 meters for deck to overhead?  It may be standard, but a lot of
> that overhead is going to be wasted space. Two and a half meters is 
> alittle over 8 feet, and that should be plenty. This gives you 5 -  1.5
> meter squares per dton.
> 
> Eris

I assumed the 3 meters was deck to deck, allowing the extra space for
conduits, ducts, overhead lighting,, pipes, electrical stuff, grav plates
etc.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
Message-ID: <OF1B531251.5105373F-ONCA256B95.001A7F77@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Charles replied to Laning thus:
>>We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including 
>>ironing.  Every service a hotel provides, basically.
>
>Even hookers?

Certainly! Just the things you need to grab on to when you perform an EVA 
and the ship decides to lurch suddenly.

...or did I misunderstand your point?

;-)  ;-)  ;-)

(It really _must_ be Monday.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
In-Reply-To: <20020407.214938.-3991.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020408051123.47CD3279C0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/07/02 at 09:49 PM,  generalturokan@juno.com said:

>On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 23:01:11 -0500 "Eris Reddoch"
><erisred@telocity.com> writes:
>> On 04/07/02 at 11:35 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@comcast.net> said:
>> 
>> >If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
>> >meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area of
>> >comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen, 
>> restaurant kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.
>> 
>> Why 3 meters for deck to overhead?  It may be standard, but a lot of
>> that overhead is going to be wasted space. Two and a half meters is 
>> alittle over 8 feet, and that should be plenty. This gives you 5 -  1.5
>> meter squares per dton.
>> 
>> Eris

>I assumed the 3 meters was deck to deck, allowing the extra space for
>conduits, ducts, overhead lighting,, pipes, electrical stuff, grav
>plates etc.

I do to, but I allocate 6" to 8" for all that. I'm looking for extra
floor space to playing in. <g>  IAC, there's nothing stopping you from
tinkering with different shapes and sizes.

In one design I put lots of little sleeping chambers (ala the coffins
in some Japanese hotels) just high enough sit crosslegged on the bed
and not hit your head and just long enough to stretch out. Stack them
two or three high with a single shared fresher for a half dozen. The
passengers of these things use them for sleeping (storage under the
mat they sleep on), and the common lounge for everything else.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
Message-ID: <OF463ECBF4.84389A2C-ONCA256B95.001C6AA3@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

"n2sami" replied:
>david.d.jaques-watson supposes, "4. Banned from 'Net access by the
>Illuminati;"
>
>Maybe the I________i are just preventing you from receiving G_______
>copious _____ posts filled with ________ ___________ you are not
>prepared to ____.
>
>
>---_w_a_r__---

Well that's strange, I only appear to have received half your message...

;-)  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <OF7C3A3904.BA8B0762-ONCA256B95.001D1920@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Mike West wrote:
>>      One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star
>> Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was
>> faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.
>
>This is a great point.  It never really dawned on me, but you are
>absolutely correct!  I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an
>incredible accomplishment in its own right.

OK, I'll give a real reply to a post, now.

From memory, the Darrians know a *lot* about stars and their life cycles. 
They've studied them extensively, both just prior to, and certainly after, 
the Maghiz.

They found a star that was just about to flare, set up a fake demo, then 
claimed success once the star flared (making sure the Zhos had a ringside 
seat).

My bet is that it occurred somewhere in Foreven.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408033711.7417D27A19@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020407222519.00a4ddf0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 19:35:36 -0700, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> 
wrote:

> >One word. F*#&ing officers.
> >Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
> >officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
> >enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
> >interview on the DVD).
>
>OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's
>all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window
>and was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

That, and the first encounter was in about the worst possible 
location.  The Marines were in a confined space, surrounded by the enemy, 
most of them unarmed because of the risk of damage to the facility, and the 
second guy to buy it had all the ammo for the squad.  I don't care how good 
your CO is, you're going to take HEAVY casualties getting out of a 
clusterfuck like that.

There's also speculation/evidence in the supporting material that 
Weyland-Yutani deliberately picked a unit with a green officer (easier for 
the Company man on the spot to influence), perhaps even arranging for the 
previous Lt. to have an accident before the mission.  If you're gonna blame 
anyone, blame the suits.  :/


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>> Say what??? What's Oosik??
>
>A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
>bone from a walrus penis.  See
>http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html

For another poem about this wondrous item of nature, see BioGraffiti: A
Natural Selection by John M. Burns.  Oh, what the hell, it's short:

The Baculum

An inarticulate lucky stiff between
Paired spongy corpora casanova,
The baculum (or penis bone) of mammals
Lends firm support to a hard job.

Present in all insectivores,
Bats, rodents, carnivores,
And most primates (but not man),
It comes in many shapes.

That of the walrus (winner of a grand prix)
Is very like a warped baseball bat
Some two feet long. As one old walrus put it,
"Speak softly and carry a big stick".

Found at:

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Facility/4118/misc/biograffiti.htm
l

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:13:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:13:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407233535.0201a0f0@mail.qrc.com>
References: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020407233535.0201a0f0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <19221143037.20020408151732@greimann.de>

> Star Trigger to be able to take credit for causing it.  IMHO, this is the 
> rough equivalent of claiming to have an Earthquake Projector, and "proving" 
> this claim by predicting a significant and unexpected earthquake well in 
> advance.

Now this is an interesting concept for a future James Bond Film:

The  enemy only pretending to have a doomsday weapon, and JB searching
the  earth in vain, always thinking he is too late only to find out in
the end that he has been tricked...



-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon:

>Ever wonder why the naval units don't have pickets, reconnaissance,
>minesweepers, etc?  No hospital ship, either.  I guess the Marines would
>have nowhere to evac to if they're wounded.

I figure all the naval support units like pickets and minesweepers (mines 
in space??) are provided by the fleet that the Marine transports are 
attached to.

Field hospitals and supplies will be Marine units that are landed 
separately, without all that jump capsule stuff.  Higher echelon support 
will partly be shipboard, I suppose.  Hospital ships probably exist, for 
instance.

But where are all the mortar sections, comm sections, armorers, ammo 
transport units, company- and battalion-level support weapons like HMGs and 
air defense and antiarmor weapons that you never see the TO&Es?  And the 
S-1, S-2, S-3, and S-4 staff billets?

I could devise a few such TO&Es by simply copying some units from WW2 to 
present times and changing a detail here or there.  Seems boring, but if 
people here request it I'll try to post a few.  Prepare to see my really 
big squads with lots of automatic weapons.  :->

I have no idea what the GT material is on this, and have no intention to 
write up anything compatible with it.  The system is too incompatible with 
prior versions for me to invest that much money in them.  Although I do 
keep meaning to shop for a few of the books, if they work as source books 
for CT/MT.  'First In" seems to be very popular, for instance.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Sci Fi Books that are Ob Trav
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1791D@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

I know I am a tad late in this thread but it occurred to be the other day
that a very Ob Trav type series of books were the Amtrak Wars by Patrick
Tilley. Hi Tech underground civilisation fighting mad max esq mutated
barbarians. The descriptions of the underground settlements seem very trav,
monorails, life support levels, you name it. 

I'm re-reading them now. I liked them as a teenager and, ten years later,
they're still pretty good. 

In fact it would make a great GURPS sourcebook. Doug Berry come on down. 
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Railguns
In-Reply-To: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <3CB1AEF9.30344.7D45D12@localhost>

Hi all!

Earlier discussion about railguns (vs. coilguns) got me curious, so I 
went and found this site:

<http://www.railgun.org/>

Check it out!  They've got a lot of cool stuff -- all the formulas for the 
more gearheaded, pics of the assembly process, how they chose 
what projectile to use, etc. etc.  

-- Rachel 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was
inexperienced, that's all.  All he knew was the book,
and suddenly the book went out the window 
as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and
went back to get Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to
slow the enemy down.  In my view, those are the kind
of things that posthumous decorations are given out
for.
END QUOTE

I agree that he did the right thing at the end but he
was incredibly incompetent in the first encounter with
the aliens. I suspect he was chosen for the mission
because of his inexperiance, and or compliance to the
company. After all the actual grunts where a seasoned
combat hardened bunch of veterens, who I think where
probably the equivalent to the marine force recon. Why
would someone who has only ever had one actual mission
be put in charge of such a group? And he froze in a
combat situation endangering the lives of his men! And
the aliens wheren't that tough, notice how the people
who had guns survived (Drake was killed by friendly
fire). All the people with wimpy 'flame units' died.
It was a sever tactical error to send troops into an
area with no effective means of fighting. And James
Cameron was inspired by his brothers time in vietnam.
However I still like Gorman for his actions at the end
of the film.

ObTrav: Do the average grunts still bitch about thier
officers? Has officer - enlisted sophont relationship
improved or got worse?

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408040658.0326ba80@pop.wizard.net>

James Ramsay regarding Colonial Marines in the film 'Aliens':
>company. After all the actual grunts where a seasoned
>combat hardened bunch of veterens, who I think where
>probably the equivalent to the marine force recon.

No, not even close to Force Recon.  Maybe more like draftee Marines early 
in WW2 minus the commitment to a cause, and with no experience.  If I'm in 
a generous mood.  I'll take an equal number of former Force Recon who 
haven't worn a uniform in twenty years or more against that useless bunch 
of physically fit young men and women any time.

Perhaps they were supposed to be combat veterans, but most of them only 
acted like the Hollywood director's idea of that.  And their organization 
and doctrine didn't reflect any type of combat experience.  In short, they 
struck me as a bunch of high school football jocks who think they're, um 
kings of the world based on zero available evidence, and therefore 
qualified to fight a war.

After the first 'Alien' movie, abandon all notions of realism.

My ObTrav is to be very careful running military units in Traveller 
campaigns, it isn't easy being believable if you have players with more 
direct military knowledge than the referee.  Not that those players will 
want complete realism either.  They'll want fun and adventure.  But they 
still need to keep their belief suspenders from snapping.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 02:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon Apr  8 01:22:02 2002
Subject: TOE was RE: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEOKEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I did a TOE for a TL13 Terran Marine Unit in MT. Most of the vehicles are on
my site though I have never posted the TOE itself. I gave it recon, kitchen,
medivac, mobile hospital etc. My proudest achievement was designing (in MT)
a mobile Grav Field Kitchen. I still have the organisation lying around
somewhere.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 03:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr  8 02:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408040658.0326ba80@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <004b01c1dedd$23466840$2f9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Perhaps they were supposed to be combat veterans, but most of them only
> acted like the Hollywood director's idea of that.  And their organization
> and doctrine didn't reflect any type of combat experience.  In short, they
> struck me as a bunch of high school football jocks who think they're, um
> kings of the world based on zero available evidence, and therefore
> qualified to fight a war.
>

They were, I think, supposed to be experienced, but only at "correcting"
colonists who were behaving in naughty ways. (mainly by showing up and
acting like badasses). Dozens of soft missions made them complacent and
overconfident.

But yeah, the unit suffered from Hollywooditis. Who issues a support weapon
you have to use standing up?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 03:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr  8 02:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005c01c1dedd$c64fecf0$2f9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> ObTrav: Do the average grunts still bitch about thier
> officers? Has officer - enlisted sophont relationship
> improved or got worse?
>
>
My father told me last night (from his time in the Air Force).. he and a
bunch of other enlisteds were hurrying somewhere in a corridor. They spied
an officer at the last second, and two of them saluted. The officer shouted
at them. So on the way back they ALL saluted, to keep the mean officer
happy. So he shouted at them some more "FOR SALUTING IN A CORRIDOR!!!!!"

They went away cursing both officers and corridors, not very much the wiser.

Another time he spied someone in an unfamiliar dress uniform. Could have
been Russian for all he knew, but he saluted to be on the safe side. The
Canadian corporal smiled wryly and went on his way....


From shadow@krypton.scn.rain.com  Mon Apr  8 03:07:42 2002
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To: tml@travellercentral.com
X-Original-Article-From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] helium-3
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Message-ID: <20407.232902.6E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
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Date: Mon Apr  8 08:08:13 2002
X-Original-Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 23:29:02 PST

In mail you write:

> I keep looking at the p-H3 reaction, and although it has a 
> high hurdle for starting, it yields more energy per unit 
> fuel, and is aneutronic.
>
> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.
>
> It looks like you could build a much smaller H3 fusion 
> reactor, not just from the standpoint of overall yield per 
> unit fuel, but also because no energy would be wasted 
> accelerating neutrons (70% of the D-T cycle is neutron 
> energy), and there would be no need to have neutron 
> shielding.  I can almost see the argument that the only way 
> to get a "tabletop" fusion reactor would be to run it on H3.

Whoa!

H3 is *tritium*. He3 is Helium-3.

*Big* difference.

> Looking for a handwave for H3 reactors...

It's gonna be *expensive*. Because the fuel is rare and a *lot* harder
to store than liquid hydrogen.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:09:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:09:34 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <20020403012608.08423dc6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20407.233050.7S9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
>> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
>> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.
>
> Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
> surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).

Yeah, it merely requires processing *tonnes* of regolith for *grams* of
He3.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:10:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:10:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Sleeping In Starports, without Jimmy Hoffa
In-Reply-To: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20408.001328.7c5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the 
> price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial 
> cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very 
> much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be 
> possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for 
> mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the 
> fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator 
> runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to 
> ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of 
> the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.  The 
> same device could also be used in recycling to return 
> anything to its component atoms.

Yep.

> So, is that how the recycler works on the ship?  Is there 
> some plasma separator in there, and it's all reduced to 
> whatever the ship's environmental controls are interested 
> in?  Dump the other ions into space?

No, that's a bit *too* thorough. It takes a lot of effort to build
complex organics. You wouldn't run them thru that sort of system.
*Inorganic* waste, maybe.

Unless you've got nanotech, or similar "magic" level tech, you want to
leave organic molecules intact unless you've got a *good* reason to
break them down that far.

Life-support level air and water recycling is done easily without going
*that* far.

> Nice place for the Jimmy Hoffas of the future...

The excess carbon in the logs will require a *lot* of explanation.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20408.003625.1N7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The esteemed Leonard Erickson wrote, including quotes from Texas Redshift:
>> > For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't 
> get
>> > in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
>> > send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
>> > do the ship much good, however.
>>
>>Also, it can't be *too* hard. there will be lots of situations when the
>>crew wants to get inside *fast*, or they may be a bit "damaged" or
>>"incapacitated". Or both.
>>
>>Entry should be merely difficult enough to dissaude *amatuers*. Pros
>>will get in anyway, so the extra efforts isn't really justifiable in
>>terms of cost/benefit.
> I agree but only a little bit.  The penalty when you do lose a ship (and 
> probably some lives at the same time) is very large.  Typically hundreds of 
> millions.  Yes, it is a touchstone of security that no security system is 
> perfect, and you shouldn't spend excess effort on attempting to perfect 
> your security beyond a point that is appropriate to your degree of risk and 
> the cost if security fails.  Even one fat trader or passenger liner lost is 
> going to drive everyone's insurance rates through the roof and may risk 
> putting the insurer financially on the ropes.

Not necessarily.

One out of how many? That's the key there.

> If nobody else does, then 
> insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security 
> measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time 
> and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.

You are considering *installation* costs. I'm talking about the costs
in time wasted due to "overly stringent" security getting in the way.

Oil tankers are expensive too. So are modern freighters. And *safety*
gear on them that "gets in the way" is routinely bypassed by crews,
never mind "security" gear.

> Oh, I'm not sure that the phrase "kill switches" was supposed to mean 
> mantrap defenses.  I think it may have meant disabling critical ship's 
> systems.  Perhaps a triphammer smashes the zuchai crystals.  <G>

I didn't think it did. I know what a kill switch is. I brought up
lethal defenses because they have been discussed in the past, and would
have popped up any minute anyway.

And yes, the TU isn't the US. Some places are less forgiving, some are
more. Which laws apply to a ship in port could get very important.

>>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
>>someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
>>attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...

> I see we've met some of the same player characters.  :->

Alas, I understand that there have actually been a couple of real world
cases of this already. And it's been a standard dodge in fiction for
*at least* 50 years.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:13:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:13:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204030529.g335TAO02739@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard writes:

> But, as you say in a later post, the energy of forces might seem
> stronger under inertial suppression. Well, is that really the
> case? A change in gravity should produce no difference, as
> masses fall at the same speed, all other things being equal.
> If I drop a feather in a vacuum, and a drop a rock in a
> vacuum, they should both fall at the same speed. So I don't
> think that changing inertia should effect how an object behaves
> with respect to the gravitational force. What about the weak,
> strong, and EM forces?

Actually, consider that rock and feather in a vacuum *and* with zero
inertia. Let go and they undergo "infinite" acceleration as gravity
takes effect, and zero time later infinite *deceleration* as they hit
the bottom of the tube.

>> Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
>> things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects. 
>
> In what way?

Chemical reaction rates depend strongly on the mass of the atoms. Atoms
with similar properties (same column in the periodic table) react at
rates that are strongly connected with their mass differences. 

So the rates might increase dramaticly.

Molecular collisions in air would result in the molecules stopping,
rather than rebounding. So the opposing portions of their vectors would
cancel out. Add in the effects of gravity, and all the air molecules
would be in a thin layer near the floor. 

Thermal effects on the gases get weird too.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

>> But assuming that you can live thru the process, then it'd be best to
>> ignore all the effects at the sub-molar level (ie molecular and lower).
>
> Can't do this.

Then you're dead. Too many of the forces at those levels *do* depend on
inertia. Lowering inertia raises the *effective* force.

As an example, the reason that water doesn't boil at around -150 F is
because of Van der waals forces. Compare the boiling points of hydrogen
oxide, hydrogen sulfide, and so on down that column in the periodic
table. All of them *but* H2O have very low boiling points. 

Lowering the inertia of the molecules will have the effect of adding
similar forces. Which will change the physical and chemical properties
of compounds *drastically*. 
  
>> This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
>> work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
>> viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.
>
> Except that your heart would also be of a lower apparent mass.

What's *that* got to do with it? The pumping forces are due to
contraction of the muscle fibers. The mass of the heart has little
relevance there. The only effect it'd have (to the first order, anyway)
is making it *easier* to contract. 

> Instead of thinking of a normal pool ball hitting a styrofoam ball,
> think of one styrofoam ball hitting another one. On the molecular
> scale, I'm guessing that this would be more akin to what would be
> happening. -Jim

Nope. Because you lose the rebound. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:15:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:15:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215009.0283aec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20408.010158.0K9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson, in replying to JimV said:
>
>>BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
>>higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
>>artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
>>playing "grav pong" with hijackers.
> Sounds like we see it the same way.  Although +6 gees to -6 gees in less 
> than one second should be sufficient grav pong to deal with most hijackers.
>
> I've always wondered at the canonical lack of ships capable of 
> accelerations far greater than 6 gees.  We subject astronauts and fighter 
> pilots to accelerations between 4 and 6 gees, so you'd think that high 
> performance military aircraft would be capable of accelerating many gees 
> faster than their internal grav compensation can handle.  They accelerate 
> at 10 gees, have 6 gees of that compensated, and a "felt acceleration" of 4 
> gees.

Actually, fighter pilots are limited by the fact that they *have* to
experience gees in a "head to feet" direction. If you can take the
acceleration "flat on your back", the limt is between 15 and 18 gees.
That's the point at which you can't excercise fine muscle control.

3 gees can be handled "indefinitely" (hours, at least). 

This is only practical for "fighter" type ships. And the power & fuel
consumption is going to be high. But due to the fact that turns have to
be made by changing the direction the "mainn drive" points, they'll
*always* be taking all but a tiny fraction of the accel in the same
direction.

It only takes a fraction of a g to flip a ship end for end in space.
It's changing the direction it is *traveling* that takes the main
drive. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:16:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <F149PnvEZZ91Lhdms4Q000022be@hotmail.com>

From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>

     "Actually, one beam was from a GG moon, the other from Darrian itself."


Mr. West,

     You are correct, sir.  My apologies for "bum doping" the List.

     "The original (non-working Star Trigger) didn't know anything about the 
meson interference project.  They thought the stellar probe itself caused 
the flares.  Therefore, the original operation of the Star Trigger would 
only require a single ship."

     Yes, a single ship that would deliver a non-working device.

     "This is not stated, and there is at least one hint that they don't.  I 
got the impression that once the proper convergence was achieved, it was 
pretty much over.  The wait was for the effects to reach you."

     Perhaps the beams needn't be held on location for hours, but other 
portions of the weapon do require time.  How much time does it take for the 
probe to release enough tungsten into the star for the Trigger to work?  How 
far off must the projector vessels be in order to escape?Assuming a 
seperation between Darrian and Tanis of 1 AU, it would take a meson beam ~8 
minutes to cover that distance.  Put the second projector on a GG moon at a 
Jupiter distance and the time jumps to ~45 minutes.  Now throw in comm times 
between vessels and aiming attempts, you'll need both to ensure you get the 
proper angle of interference.
     Even parking both projector vessels at the star's 100D limit, so they 
can escape, means that beam travel distance, comm lag, and subsequent aiming 
attempts are all going to take time.  Maybe not hours, but certainly not 
minutes.

     "While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I 
don't see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the 
trick is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it."

     Yes, seeding the star with enough tungsten and aiming correctly will 
take time.  Perhaps the Darrians use multiple probes to increase their 
chances?

     "The reason the Sword Worlds never received a flare was for two 
reasons: 1) They are too close..."

     Yes, the "collateral" damage to both Darrian and Imperial space I 
mentioned.

     "2) The Star Trigger did not become operational until after the Fifth 
FW.  After the FFW, the Sword Worlds were, quite frankly, not much of a 
threat to the Darrians."

     You missed the point of the fake Star Trigger and the real story behind 
the faked demostration.  Everyone, INCLUDING THE DARRIANS, thought it 
worked!  It had to be this way so that Zho mind readers would verify it's 
both existence and operability.  So, for deterrent purposes, the Star 
Trigger, whether working or not, was deployed, IIRC, immediately after the 
2nd FW.  Plenty of time for a Confederacy tussling with the Sword Worlds 
over the Entropic Cluster to think about using it.  Remember, they thought 
it worked!
     The "real" reason the Star Trigger wasn't used during all those 
centuries is that weapons of mass destruction aren't, except in very rare 
cases, used to ensure you'll WIN a war.  They're used to ensure that the 
other fellow LOSES the war.  This is a important distinction.  The Star 
Trigger and MAD, on which it is based, is a suicide pact; "You push us too 
far and we'll make sure we all die, you included."
     The Trigger can be used defensively rather easily, by employing it you 
ensure that the power about to conquer you is left with nothing worth 
conquering.  Using the Trigger offensively, like nukes, is far tougher.  
Sure we can all spin out scenario after scenario in which nukes win the day, 
but they would all depend on very specific, out of the ordinary, 
prerequisites.

     "While you can do whatever you want IYTU, in the OTU the Star Trigger 
does work."

     Yes, as you pointed out it works after the 5th FW.  However, it was 
deployed for far longer than that.

     "I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an incredible 
accomplishment in its own right."

     Keeping the secret that the Trigger demonstration was a fake was the 
really incrediable accomplishment.  The fakers had to fool both the 
observers from the other powers AND their own people utterly and completely. 
  Why didn't the secret never leak out?  Mass suicide among the project 
staff over "creating" so horrible a weapon?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:17:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:17:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 0:22, laning wrote:

> Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units
> in Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no
> provision whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up
> against the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win
> because of their balanced organization and integral combat and
> logistical support, despite their major technological disadvantage.

I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were 
based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped 
their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its 
subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its 
companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it 
belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles, 
field ovens, etc.

I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of 
the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be 
used to supply and support its troops.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:18:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:18:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <20020408044045.02AAD279F0@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB0F014.30539.36165A5@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB236E1.7282.680449@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 23:40, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I had a problem with a 12 gauge when I was a kid. <g> I didn't even
> notice there was recoil with a .22 rifle.

I thought 12 gauges were fine - they push rather than kick and come 
with nice rubber butt pads. Not like No.1 Lee-Enfields with their solid 
brass butt plate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:19:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:19:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408075125.009ec5e0@mindspring.com>

At 04:58 PM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>ObTrav: Do the average grunts still bitch about thier
>officers? Has officer - enlisted sophont relationship
>improved or got worse?

Soldiers still bitch about everything.  It is their one right.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:20:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:20:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>

At 02:28 AM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>John Kwon:
>
>>Ever wonder why the naval units don't have pickets, reconnaissance,
>>minesweepers, etc?  No hospital ship, either.  I guess the Marines would
>>have nowhere to evac to if they're wounded.
>
>I figure all the naval support units like pickets and minesweepers (mines 
>in space??) are provided by the fleet that the Marine transports are 
>attached to.
>
>Field hospitals and supplies will be Marine units that are landed 
>separately, without all that jump capsule stuff.  Higher echelon support 
>will partly be shipboard, I suppose.  Hospital ships probably exist, for 
>instance.
>
>But where are all the mortar sections, comm sections, armorers, ammo 
>transport units, company- and battalion-level support weapons like HMGs 
>and air defense and antiarmor weapons that you never see the TO&Es?  And 
>the S-1, S-2, S-3, and S-4 staff billets?
>
>I could devise a few such TO&Es by simply copying some units from WW2 to 
>present times and changing a detail here or there.  Seems boring, but if 
>people here request it I'll try to post a few.  Prepare to see my really 
>big squads with lots of automatic weapons.  :->
>
>I have no idea what the GT material is on this, and have no intention to 
>write up anything compatible with it.  The system is too incompatible with 
>prior versions for me to invest that much money in them.  Although I do 
>keep meaning to shop for a few of the books, if they work as source books 
>for CT/MT.  'First In" seems to be very popular, for instance.

GT Ground Forces has complete brigade and regiment TO&Es for the Unified 
Armies of the Imperium and the Imperial Marine Force.  I spent most of my 
time developing the support units, and much of the Operations chapter is 
dedicated to issues of supply and support.

The Standard Issue chapter has the 30,000dton Keith-class brigade 
transport, along with its six Nakerth-class landers.. 1,200 tons each, 
carrying a full combat battalion to a world's surface. There is also the 
Caen-class dropship, the standard 1,200 transport for the Imperial Marines.

Among the vehicles included are a recovery sled, a heavy G-Carrier, and an 
engineering sled.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Sleeping In Starports, without Jimmy Hoffa
Message-ID: <200204081516.DPW00037@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>
>The excess carbon in the logs will require a *lot* of 
>explanation.
>

I used to play in a T campaign where a silicon-based alien 
species referred to us as "carbon-units".  The referee also
used to joke that the aliens knew they hit a ship with
people in it, because they used spectography to look for 
the carbon line when your ship was vaporized.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <20407.233050.7S9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204081031040.23520-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
> > surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).
> 
> Yeah, it merely requires processing *tonnes* of regolith for *grams* of
> He3.

Transhuman Space also says that ratio is good enough.
And it says you can get He3 more easily from gas giants.  In that future
history, the US put a colony in Saturn's orbit solely for that purpose.
Since most Traveller starships are capable of scooping gas giants anyway,
why not go by that route?

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam Draper)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20020408033711.7417D27A19@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGMEANCFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>

I was reading an article recently by a US Army surgeon who served in Vietnam
(Martin Fackler).  He found that the 7.62x39 would penetrate 29 inches of
ballistic gelatin, the 5.56x45 (M193) penetrates 13+ inches, and the 7.62x51
penetrates 25 inches (all FMJ).  Although the 7.62x39 had the deepest
penetration, it produced the least devestating wound.  The bullet
penetrated, turned around, and then exited.  He says, from his experience in
Vietnam, the "average uncomplicated thigh wound was about what one would
expect from a low-powered handgun: a small, punctate entrance and exit wound
with minimal intervening muscle disruption."  The US 7.62x51 produced an
uncomplicated wound profile like the 7.26x39.  The 5.56 produced a pretty
devestating wound, because the bullet would, as it yawed, split in half,
with the base fragmenting into a number of smaller projectiles.  This
reduced penetration, but made a big hole (up to 5" in diameter).  Velocity
had to be at least 2700 fps for the bullet to fragment (muzzle velocity with
a M16 is like 3200+), and no fragmentation took place until the bullet had
penetrated 4-5" of tissue.

Interestingly, German 7.62x51 bullets have a thinner jacket, and that round
would fragment like the 5.56.

I have read before that 5.56 soft points have pathetic penetration in
tissue, but 308 caliber soft points certainly get good penetration and
produce enormous wounds.  Bullet construction seems to be critical in
producing wounds; that seems to be largely ignored in Traveller other than
HE and DS rounds.

I wonder, does the Imperium follow the Geneva convention regarding FMJ
rounds?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 10:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 09:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS War what is it good for, absolutely nothing (apart f rom the Industrial Military complex)
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17918@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>; from Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:11:41AM +1000
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17918@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020408100937.B1314@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:11:41AM +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
>
> Especially when you have western industrial powers that are
> unwilling to become involved in 'Nation Building' and actually step
> in and say 'hey man, killing your own people is wrong'.

The last time nations took a wholesale interest in one another's
affairs, Europe was nearly destroyed in the wars of religion.  The
state system evolved in order to prevent that kind of mass death and
destruction.  The problem now is that states are so large: if the
Grand Duchy of Potlork--consisting of the Grand Duke, his staff,
10,000 citizens and a herd of cattle--goes on a genocidal rampage, its
fairly easy to escape to neighbouring Ruritania.  If the EU does, it's
somewhat more complicated, should one live in, e.g., Arras.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their
pockets for new vocabulary.                     --James D. Nicoll

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 10:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Mon Apr  8 09:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] E-mail still down -- Help Needed
Message-ID: <l03010d0bb8d770ec2013@[206.224.92.67]>

First, my GDWGames@aol.com account is still in the doldrums -- I have a new
computer (well, new to me -- it is an order of magnitude advance over my
old one, but still a used machine) through the courtesy of Geoff MacDonald,
who gave me a very good deal. I'm still struggling with modem issues,
however, so rejuvenatation of the old address will take a while.

A second point:

Will anyone who owns one of the following old GDW Boardgames please get in
touch with me.

	1941
	1942!
	Battle of Agincourt 1415 AD
	Battle of Lobositz
	Battle of Prague
	Battle of Raphia 217 BC

I'll explain in e-mail.



Loren Wiseman
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/
     SJ Games
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 10:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 09:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204081031040.23520-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018283921.6838.ajackson@ping>

Gregory Carl Kettler writes:
> On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > > Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
> > > surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).
> > 
> > Yeah, it merely requires processing *tonnes* of regolith for *grams* of
> > He3.
> 
> Transhuman Space also says that ratio is good enough.

Mostly because TS uses realistic fuel requirements for fusion.  3He is still
200 million dollars per ton in TS.  Of course, TS doesn't have contragravity
and thruster plates, which means getting stuff out of saturn is a challenge.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 11:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 10:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe@aol.com>

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In a message dated 08/04/02 03:39:21 GMT Daylight Time, 
gridlore@mindspring.com writes:


> >One word. F*#&ing officers.
> >Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
> >officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
> >enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
> >interview on the DVD).
> 
> OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's 
> all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window 
> as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.
> 
> Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get 
> Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.  In my view, those 
> 
> are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.
> 

What about the Sergeant (Apone?) - I thought the role of an NCO was to stop 
the officers messing everything up? Clearly he has more experience than 
Gorman and yet he's quite happy to lead his troops into an unknown 
environment against an unknown force AND he gives all the ammo to one man.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 08/04/02 03:39:21 GMT Daylight Time, gridlore@mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;One word. F*#&amp;ing officers.<BR>
&gt;Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the<BR>
&gt;officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to<BR>
&gt;enter direct combat (It says so in the directors<BR>
&gt;interview on the DVD).<BR>
<BR>
OK, that's not what I got at *all*&nbsp; Gorman was inexperienced, that's <BR>
all.&nbsp; All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window <BR>
as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.<BR>
<BR>
Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get <BR>
Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.&nbsp; In my view, those <BR>
are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
What about the Sergeant (Apone?) - I thought the role of an NCO was to stop the officers messing everything up? Clearly he has more experience than Gorman and yet he's quite happy to lead his troops into an unknown environment against an unknown force AND he gives all the ammo to one man.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 11:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 10:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <20408.003625.1N7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408123225.02823ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Leonard Erickson discusses the antihijacker issue:
> > If nobody else does, then
> > insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security
> > measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time
> > and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.
>
>You are considering *installation* costs. I'm talking about the costs
>in time wasted due to "overly stringent" security getting in the way.
>
>Oil tankers are expensive too. So are modern freighters. And *safety*
>gear on them that "gets in the way" is routinely bypassed by crews,
>never mind "security" gear.

I wholeheartedly agree that personnel will tend to ignore things that are 
inconvenient.  That's partly why insurers and lenders and regulators at 
starports will be the ones insisting on enforcement through certifications 
and inspections.  They won't expect ship crews to take care of it on their own.

I think the analogy with ocean-going vessels in our own world is useful, 
but not a complete analogy.  I think tankers and freighters mostly rely for 
their safety on the fact that any hijacker has an extremely difficult time 
fencing the rather unique and obvious stolen property.  As well as a 
communication network that is practically instantaneous around the globe 
and military patrols being able to reach the vessel by aircraft at speeds 
at least an order of magnitude faster than the vessel can travel.


> > Oh, I'm not sure that the phrase "kill switches" was supposed to mean
> > mantrap defenses.  I think it may have meant disabling critical ship's
> > systems.  Perhaps a triphammer smashes the zuchai crystals.  <G>
>
>I didn't think it did. I know what a kill switch is. I brought up
>lethal defenses because they have been discussed in the past, and would
>have popped up any minute anyway.
>
>And yes, the TU isn't the US. Some places are less forgiving, some are
>more. Which laws apply to a ship in port could get very important.
>
> >>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
> >>someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
> >>attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...
>
> > I see we've met some of the same player characters.  :->
>
>Alas, I understand that there have actually been a couple of real world
>cases of this already. And it's been a standard dodge in fiction for
>*at least* 50 years.

Sounds like our overall positions are not that far apart after all.  My 
vision of antihijacking measures is moderated and mitigated by all the 
things you've pointed out.  I do believe that captain and crew should have 
very quick access in case of emergency, and that daily activities should be 
only slightly impacted or not impacted at all, if possible.  Overrides 
should be available in multiple ways.  If this leaves loopholes that can be 
exploited by a determined, knowledgable, and clever foe then that risk is 
recompensed by all the honest passengers and crew who are saved from being 
victims of dangerously rigid security systems.  But, within those 
restrictions, a few hundred years of big business should be able to work 
out a lot of safeguards that are very effective.  Starship owners willing 
to seek the right vendors, sign enough waivers, or maybe go outside the 
astrographical borders under the watchful eyes of various regulators to set 
up their security will still be able to do perhaps ill-advised things.  And 
then you have your crews who will disable or circumvent safeguards despite 
all the doublechecks  and safety inspections.  I imagine skilled hijackers 
will look for telltales of such ships, avoid the dangerous ones and seek 
the easier marks.

I cannot honestly say that any group of players I'm familiar with has shown 
the planning, forethought, and teamwork necessary to get away with 
hijacking a Traveller ship using what I consider standard antihijacking 
measures and more than a dozen parsecs inside Imperial borders.  I can also 
honestly say that I can envision many ways in which a group of players 
_could_ succeed if only they didn't insist on being such "cowboys".

So, IMTU hijacking can and does happen, particularly near or outside the 
borders of the major interstellar polities.  But players would be foolish 
to try it themselves.  And the standard shipboard safeguards are designed 
to keep crews composed of people like my players from getting themselves or 
others inadvertently killed.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Who wants an atom laser?
Message-ID: <DAV60c7vtdFq7ImxUkM000015b1@hotmail.com>

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/20mar_newmatter.htm

And how useful would one be in space combat?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:14:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:14:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Who wants an atom laser?
In-Reply-To: <DAV60c7vtdFq7ImxUkM000015b1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018289637.113.ajackson@ping>

Texas Redshift writes:
> http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/20mar_newmatter.htm
> 
> And how useful would one be in space combat?

Since they require working at the temperature of a bose-einstein condensate,
not very; the beam would move incredibly slowly, and have a very low energy
content.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGMEANCFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408033711.7417D27A19@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408135946.02824dd0@pop.wizard.net>

At 09:47 AM 4/8/02 -0600, you wrote:
>I was reading an article recently by a US Army surgeon who served in Vietnam
>(Martin Fackler).  He found that the 7.62x39 would penetrate 29 inches of
>ballistic gelatin, the 5.56x45 (M193) penetrates 13+ inches, and the 7.62x51
>penetrates 25 inches (all FMJ).  Although the 7.62x39 had the deepest
>penetration, it produced the least devestating wound.  The bullet
>penetrated, turned around, and then exited.  He says, from his experience in
>Vietnam, the "average uncomplicated thigh wound was about what one would
>expect from a low-powered handgun: a small, punctate entrance and exit wound
>with minimal intervening muscle disruption."  The US 7.62x51 produced an
>uncomplicated wound profile like the 7.26x39.  The 5.56 produced a pretty
>devestating wound, because the bullet would, as it yawed, split in half,
>with the base fragmenting into a number of smaller projectiles.  This
>reduced penetration, but made a big hole (up to 5" in diameter).  Velocity
>had to be at least 2700 fps for the bullet to fragment (muzzle velocity with
>a M16 is like 3200+), and no fragmentation took place until the bullet had
>penetrated 4-5" of tissue.

With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to 
the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300 
feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the 
government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting.

I did all my reading on this topic over a dozen years ago, but I seem to 
recall that there has been plenty of reliable material published that 
debunked the notion of the magical differences causing the 5.56 to tumble, 
etc. when no other bullets were able to achieve the same effect.  I said 
that very poorly.  What I mean is that government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam 
had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other 
assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.  Including poorer 
accuracy.  When combat took place at very limited range, this was less of a 
problem.  Plus the fact that most combatants on either side had a tendency 
to cease fighting when they received more than a superficial wound, unless 
they were heroes or tactical circumstances were desperate.  Sort of 
analagous to playing touch football instead of normal football.  You don't 
have to tackle someone to bring them down, just touch them with both hands 
and they're required to stop running and the play is over.  Contrary to the 
popular image, lots of infantry combat in Viet Nam took place at pretty 
long range.  A sort of contest of wimps, I guess, between the fairly 
lightweight and unstable 5.56 and the more substantial but lower speed 7.62x39.

Let us please leave as a separate thread the discussion of whether aimed 
rifle fire is any different in battlefield effectiveness from unaimed 
fire.  Except to note that _if_ you are an unmodified adherent of the 
theory popular among many experts that there is no difference, then by 
corollary it shouldn't matter whether the rifle used is accurate or 
not.  Continuing to look at that corollary, if two different rifles have 
the same range, inflict equivalent damage on the human body at that range, 
and penetrate cover and concealment equally, then accuracy won't make a 
significant difference in the vast majority of fights at long range.

Please let us not debate the validity of that theory (again) here.  And 
certainly don't ask _me_ to defend that theory, regardless of how many 
people with more knowledge than I have may argue convincingly in its 
favor.  But if you wish to comment on the corollaries I propose above, then 
I think that is virgin territory for us to debate.

>Interestingly, German 7.62x51 bullets have a thinner jacket, and that round
>would fragment like the 5.56.
>
>I have read before that 5.56 soft points have pathetic penetration in
>tissue, but 308 caliber soft points certainly get good penetration and
>produce enormous wounds.  Bullet construction seems to be critical in
>producing wounds; that seems to be largely ignored in Traveller other than
>HE and DS rounds.
>
>I wonder, does the Imperium follow the Geneva convention regarding FMJ
>rounds?

This last part has put your finger on a very important point.  I'm quite 
sure the Geneva Conventions are long since defunct in Milieu 0 and onward, 
although that's just my ever-humble opinion.  ;->  And yes, projectile 
design has a _lot_ to do with ballistics, at least when talking about 
infantry or hunting weapons.

Recently, Tod Glenn seems to have made the most articulate explanations on 
the TML for why gauss weapons will be the infantry weapons of choice at 
tech levels that permit them.  The explanations include convincing reasons 
for typical gauss ammo to both penetrate armor and damage human bodies very 
well without needing a variety of fiendish projectile designs to achieve 
the intended effect.  NB that the projectile needs to be travelling at a 
velocity greater than 1,450 meters per second in order to do all 
this.  Sorry, Tod, to single you out by name but you have indeed been the 
most articulate, informative, and convincing poster on that thread and I 
believe in giving credit where it is due.  :->

Canonical gauss weapons get muzzle velocities well in excess of 1,450 m/s, 
but I am too lazy at the moment to look up the information required to 
calculate how far they will travel down range before falling below that 
important velocity.  But you don't have to be Isaac Newton to realize it's 
plenty far enough to be a useful military longarm.  And that even a long, 
skinny piece of iron travelling at say 800 m/s is something you'd rather 
have not hit you.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408144051.02823ba0@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert Boleyn responds to me on the continuing thread:
>On 8 Apr 2002 at 0:22, laning wrote:
>
> > Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units
> > in Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no
> > provision whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up
> > against the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win
> > because of their balanced organization and integral combat and
> > logistical support, despite their major technological disadvantage.
>
>I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were
>based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped
>their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its
>subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its
>companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it
>belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles,
>field ovens, etc.

The missing TO&E elements that I'm most troubled by are indirect fire 
support weapons and special weapons.  No Auto RAM grenade launchers, no 
light mortars, no heavy machine guns, no antiarmor weapons.  That sort of 
thing.  We can always at least pretend that things like field ovens are 
held by dedicated support units that are outside the battalion or regiment 
level.  I'm also troubled by the lack of staff officers and troops.  There 
is no Logistics, Intelligence, or Operations section in any of the 
battalions or regiments I can recall.  Even the Soviets and the Chinese 
haven't simplified so much that there is no Logistics staff at regimental 
level.  But the biggest problem for me is the lack of supporting arms that 
you'd expect from TL 12 and TL 14 or 15 organizations.


>I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
>the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
>used to supply and support its troops.

Yeah, it's unclear to me exactly what mission the Milieu 1100 Imperial army 
and marines are tailored to.  Fully mobilized general warfare against 
opponents like the Outworld Coalition?  Internal control and 
policing?  Border defense against pocket empires and pirates?  And just how 
much orbital supremacy do they count on achieving and maintaining?  Perhaps 
all they expect from their regiments is for them to be glorified armed 
reconnaissance sufficient to get ortillery observers to bring accurate fire 
onto important targets and then accept the surrender of local opposition 
commanders.  I am comfortable with that sort of scenario happening a lot, 
but certainly not all, of the time.  But even so, the regiments would be 
much better off as true combined arms teams, not just a bunch of mobile 
riflemen.

I'm something of a so-called grognard gamer at this point, and maybe my 
desire for more detailed TO&Es is the incipient miniatures player in me.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 13:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 12:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
 <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>

Doug Berry says:

>GT Ground Forces has complete brigade and regiment TO&Es for the Unified 
>Armies of the Imperium and the Imperial Marine Force.  I spent most of my 
>time developing the support units, and much of the Operations chapter is 
>dedicated to issues of supply and support.
>
>The Standard Issue chapter has the 30,000dton Keith-class brigade 
>transport, along with its six Nakerth-class landers.. 1,200 tons each, 
>carrying a full combat battalion to a world's surface. There is also the 
>Caen-class dropship, the standard 1,200 transport for the Imperial Marines.
>
>Among the vehicles included are a recovery sled, a heavy G-Carrier, and an 
>engineering sled.

It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and 
equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really 
good work being done there.

The Keith-class was named in honor?  Well done.  :->

If I were the Imperium, I wouldn't bother to build standard troop 
transports that carry less than a complete battalion.  Brigades or 
divisions would have logistical elements that are more forward on the 
battlefield, and most of the logistical tail on the ground would be at 
corps level or higher.  It sounds like the Keith class represents pretty 
similar thinking.  :->

I think there is a very important, but still subsidiary, role for ships 
that transport and land Imperial Marine companies and it sounds like you 
think the same way.  You're probably aware that the US considers the Marine 
battalion to be the standard chunk to embark and deploy, plus full 
supporting elements.  But there are a lot of ways in which they are poor 
analogues for Imperial Marines.

Your grav sleds make a lot of sense.  I bet you have ambulance sleds, aid 
station sleds, and field kitchen sleds too?

Finally, I've been meaning for a long time to compliment you on the sig 
about embracing fascism because the uniforms look cool.  Nice.
:->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 13:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 12:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:04:22PM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net> <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020408130651.A1686@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:04:22PM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and 
> equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really 
> good work being done there.

It's probably a better investment than anything in the CT family...

GURPS is actually pretty nice.  I'm still hoping for GURPS: 1889
(first, use every cinematic rule...).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 13:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 12:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <20020408130651.A1686@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
 <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408153253.02eaa320@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl replies to me:
>On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:04:22PM -0400, laning wrote:
> >
> > It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and
> > equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really
> > good work being done there.
>
>It's probably a better investment than anything in the CT family...

But I already own everything in the CT family.  :->

Except a couple of alien modules, dangit.  I'm getting pretty strung out 
waiting for the reprint from Far Future!

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
Message-ID: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>But I already own everything in the CT family.  :->
>
I have that, the reprints, and everything that Leading Edge 
ever printed for Phoenix Command.

And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as 
PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.

I've noticed that with skill resolution or combat resolution 
systems, you've got too simple (CT), or simply inaccurate 
with too much potatoes (GURPS), or wildly inaccurate with 
long weapon lists (Rifts), or terribly accurate but nearly 
unplayable unless you are all gearheads with 12 hours to do 
60 seconds of combat (PCCS).

Friends, there has to be something better. Something that is 
a compromise between CT and PCCS, that doesn't make gross 
errors, that's as quick to play as Shellshock, and now Doug 
will beat me with a penguin....

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam Draper)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>

laning@wizard.net wrote:

>With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to
>the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300
>feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the
>government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting."

I have not heard this before about Vietnam era ammo.  I can tell you that
current production military production Lake City and Winchester ammo is
meeting mil-spec (3200+ fps for M193 (for M16A1s) and 3000+ fps for M855
(for M16A2s)).  The army still buys M16A1 ammo for rifles still in service
with the National Guard.  It is not match ammo, but the accuracy is pretty
good.  Certainly good enough to hit a torso at 500 yards with iron sights.

>government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam
>had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other
>assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.  Including poorer
>accuracy.

This guy Facker's experiences were exactly the opposite.  Most of the
comlaints I have heard about the early M16 stems from the poor reliability,
which was a result of the Army using the wrong kind of powder.  There is
also a pretty big prejudice against the smaller caliber, which is somewhat
understandable given that few states allow hunters to use .223 on big game.
And deer do not shoot back.  But the 7.62x39 is pretty similar ballistically
to the venerable 30/30; with FMJ bullets it would hardly be a death ray
either.

That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than the
AK-47 or even the M14.

>Let us please leave as a separate thread the discussion of whether aimed
>rifle fire is any different in battlefield effectiveness from unaimed
>fire.

Like I said above, the M16 is a very accurate platform.  It will make pretty
small holes once the muzzle velocity falls below 2700 fps (about 15-200
yards).  Fortunately, like you said, most opponents will take a powder once
they are shot, no matter how severe the wound.

>Recently, Tod Glenn seems to have made the most articulate explanations on
>the TML for why gauss weapons will be the infantry weapons of choice at
>tech levels that permit them.

That is very interesting.  I have read in tests that little darts at high
velocities are remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do
little tissue damage.  But odd things happen at high velocities.  I'll see
if I can dig up my source.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:15:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:15:38 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
In-Reply-To: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D7483C.37BB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 12:59 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as
> PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.

Please enlighten me.  PCCS?
> 
> I've noticed that with skill resolution or combat resolution
> systems, you've got too simple (CT), or simply inaccurate
> with too much potatoes (GURPS), or wildly inaccurate with
> long weapon lists (Rifts), or terribly accurate but nearly
> unplayable unless you are all gearheads with 12 hours to do
> 60 seconds of combat (PCCS).

That's the GM's jog, isn't it?  Personally, I like a combat system that can
be handled with a couple of die rolls.  I use modified CT and fill in the
missing details

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
In-Reply-To: <B8D7483C.37BB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018297856.1051.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 4/8/02 12:59 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as
> > PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.
> 
> Please enlighten me.  PCCS?

I'd guess on phoenix command.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:56:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:56:04 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
Message-ID: <200204082055.DQH04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn asks
>
>Please enlighten me.  PCCS?

Phoenix Command Combat System, 4th Edition, with all 
supplements. A product of the now defunct Leading Edge Games.

>
>That's the GM's jog, isn't it?  Personally, I like a combat 
>system that can be handled with a couple of die rolls.  I 
>use modified CT and fill in the missing details
>

The rolls are quick enough for the experienced GM using PCCS -
 it's the players who choke on it if they don't like having 
to plan their actions to the Nth detail, or look through 
tables, or recalculate this and that.  It comes with a 
stripped down version as well, but if you had bought PCCS for 
the realism, the stripped version bites.

Also, the wounding and incapacitation tends to be tedious.  
You do receive points of damage, but most of the time it's so 
far off the scale you just fall down and die later.  Rifle 
rounds in particular will just *do* you.  One hit from a 
Garand in the torso and you're going to die if the medic 
doesn't stabilize you (that's if you didn't die outright).  
The odds of a graze are not as high as you would like.  And 
you *can* kill someone with a .22 pistol shot to the eye, if 
you're lucky.  Try and kill someone with a body pistol in 
CT.  It won't happen to the average character.  OTOH, you 
could be hit by two people who empty their Walther PPKs into 
you in PCCS, and if you're hit just right, you won't fall 
down until later.  Gives you that extra time to point that 
Super 90 in their direction and make them eat it.

The advanced small arms damage tables from the game came from 
Computerman, a model you may recall.  Now try that by hand 
instead of by computer.

Not like some games where you get popped with 3D6 and keep 
running.

You can take it to extremes: bullets have "time of flight", 
weapons have a maximum ballistic accuracy, a maximum aim time 
beyond which aiming does no good, some weapons come to aim 
quicker but less accurately than others, while others may be 
slower but far more sure.  Excellent shotgun rules. There are 
good rules for leadership and planning.  Extensive animal 
rules, which are quite good.  Hand to hand is not so good, 
but you'll be shot before you get that close.  Blind fire, 3-
round burst, it goes on and on.  If you're a weapon gearhead, 
this is definitely the combat system for you. My favorite 
supplement has riot control weapons (plastic coated steel 
balls and rubber baton rounds), claymore, miniguns, 
flamethrowers, etc.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:17:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:17:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408170314.024b6258@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:46 PM 4/8/2002, Sam Draper wrote:
>I have read in tests that little darts at high velocities are remarkably 
>innefective.  They just punch through and do little tissue damage.

 From what I recall reading, the 60's era Army tests with high-velocity 
flechettes in the SPIW program.  This weapon was proposed by AAI, and fired 
65 gram steel flechette at high velocity (about 4800fps).  It was supposed 
to be quite effective at energy transfer - the dart would deform on hitting 
the target, and cause massive wounding.  In the 80's, Styr's Advanced 
Combat Rifle used the same general type of projectile.  In both projects, 
difficulties in manufacturing the ammunition led to relatively low accuracy.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408170314.024b6258@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>

Derek Wildstar writes:
> At 03:46 PM 4/8/2002, Sam Draper wrote:
> >I have read in tests that little darts at high velocities are remarkably 
> >innefective.  They just punch through and do little tissue damage.
> 
>  From what I recall reading, the 60's era Army tests with high-velocity 
> flechettes in the SPIW program.  This weapon was proposed by AAI, and fired
>  65 gram steel flechette at high velocity (about 4800fps).

I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).  A 65 gram
projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 2:21 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).  A 65 gram
> projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.


I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:53:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:53:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408170314.024b6258@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175151.020da5c8@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:21 PM 4/8/2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain

Probably.  ;-)  I'm at work, so I'm working from memory ...


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175242.01e90560@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:47 PM 4/8/2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
>I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.

That would be the one - I couldn't remember it's number (all I could 
remember was the name of the program, "SPIW".  I vaguely recall that AAI 
built the initial weapon, and that one of the armories made improved 
versions - but they had trouble with the tolerances on the ammo, and 
couldn't make it reliable enough for economical manufacture, let alone 
issue - so the M16 got the nod).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:56:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:56:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175242.01e90560@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:47 PM 4/8/2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
>I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.

That would be the one - I couldn't remember it's number (all I could 
remember was the name of the program, "SPIW".  I vaguely recall that AAI 
built the initial weapon, and that one of the armories made improved 
versions - but they had trouble with the tolerances on the ammo, and 
couldn't make it reliable enough for economical manufacture, let alone 
issue - so the M16 got the nod).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 16:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 15:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175151.020da5c8@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <B8D760BD.37C1C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 2:52 PM, Derek Wildstar at wildstar@qrc.com wrote:

> At 05:21 PM 4/8/2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain
> 
> Probably.  ;-)  I'm at work, so I'm working from memory ...

Aha!  Don't have your copy of the Stevens and Ezell book (The deadliest
weapon that never was). How fortuitous that I have that little factoid
memorized.  My wife says I have the gum brain.  <g>
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 16:17:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Mon Apr  8 15:17:35 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Ship Storage
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17920@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

	Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
on the number of ship's crew and other factors?

Mikey:
I figured that Life Support for X days covers food
space/requirements/storage. Anything extra above that for life support is 1
ton = 150 man days of food/supplies (based on Belt Strike????)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 16:44:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 15:44:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408144051.02823ba0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB2C59D.18860.53D550@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 14:53, laning wrote:

> The missing TO&E elements that I'm most troubled by are indirect fire
> support weapons and special weapons.  No Auto RAM grenade launchers, no
> light mortars, no heavy machine guns, no antiarmor weapons.  That sort
> of thing.  We can always at least pretend that things like field ovens
> are held by dedicated support units that are outside the battalion or
> regiment level.  I'm also troubled by the lack of staff officers and
> troops.  There is no Logistics, Intelligence, or Operations section in
> any of the battalions or regiments I can recall.  Even the Soviets and
> the Chinese haven't simplified so much that there is no Logistics staff
> at regimental level.  But the biggest problem for me is the lack of
> supporting arms that you'd expect from TL 12 and TL 14 or 15
> organizations.

Looking at the TO they have artillery at Regimental and Battalion 
level, armed with MRLs and missile launchers. The APCs carry 6 tac 
missiles (except fire support models which have VRF gauss MGs instead) 
and thirty smaller fire & forget missiles. They also have the use of 
three SDBs for ortillery support. All this from _The Spinward Marches 
Campaign_. Even so they seem to be under equipped with indirect fire 
support (more like a Soviet tank regiment than anything else). I 
suspect (though CT didn't say much on this AFAIK) that good point-
defence systems could have a lot to do with this - you'd want to use a 
lot of direct fire and _fast_ rockets and missiles in such an 
environment.

They also have 10 Ramparts, for local aerospace superoirity missions 
and recon I presume. I'm not sure of the utility of these, to be 
honest.

SMC doesn't say what the troopies are equiped with, but Striker II 
(which has the same TO listed) tells us that they're all in TL-14 heavy 
battledress and have fusion rifles and tac missiles in each 5-man 
squad.

> >I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
> >the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
> >used to supply and support its troops.
> 
> Yeah, it's unclear to me exactly what mission the Milieu 1100 Imperial
> army and marines are tailored to.  Fully mobilized general warfare
> against opponents like the Outworld Coalition?

That would be the Army, but not all of it. I suspect you'd need the TO 
of one of the units used in the Seige of Terra to get a look at an 
Imperial 'assault' or 'tank' unit.

> Internal control and
> policing?  Border defense against pocket empires and pirates?  And just
> how much orbital supremacy do they count on achieving and maintaining?

All of it, of course.

> Perhaps all they expect from their regiments is for them to be glorified
> armed reconnaissance sufficient to get ortillery observers to bring
> accurate fire onto important targets and then accept the surrender of
> local opposition commanders.  I am comfortable with that sort of
> scenario happening a lot, but certainly not all, of the time.  But even
> so, the regiments would be much better off as true combined arms teams,
> not just a bunch of mobile riflemen.

They do have a lot of organic firepower, and a decent number of tanks. 
Again it looks more like a Soviet unit than a Western one (MR in this 
case) - lots of organic direct-fire and anti-tank support, and the 
artillery held higher up. And those tanks are really big and nasty, 
BTW.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
References: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB220F3.A0C5FF6A@premier.net>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Friends, there has to be something better. Something that is
> a compromise between CT and PCCS, that doesn't make gross
> errors, that's as quick to play as Shellshock, and now Doug
> will beat me with a penguin....
> 
Nah, he'll just hit you with a rolled-up copy of _At Close Quarters_....

http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?BITSRACQ

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
In-Reply-To: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020408193202.00e31ac0@buffnet.net>

At 03:59 PM 4/8/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>laning says
>>
>>But I already own everything in the CT family.  :->
>>
>I have that, the reprints, and everything that Leading Edge 
>ever printed for Phoenix Command.
>
>And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as 
>PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.

Two comments:

1) PCCS can be streamlined with the use of Excel
2) PCCS doesn't differentiate between someone who knows how to use a pistol
versus one who uses a shotgun


If you want to, build a simple database using excel and have a single page
that has the following entries:

Weapon
aim point
aim time
range
Stance
daylight

Die roll to hit

From that, it should be simple enough to determine what the results are...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408232954.14194.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
But yeah, the unit suffered from Hollywooditis. Who
issues a support weapon you have to use standing up?
END QUOTE

If you gave me a support weapon that had thermal
seeking rounds I would use it standing up ;) And
remember they where colonial marines. Probably didn't
get as much training as they should.

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020408233500.27629.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
>>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be
>>defeated rather easily by someone ruthless enough.
>>That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be attached to
>>the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...

> I see we've met some of the same player characters. 
:->

Alas, I understand that there have actually been a
couple of real world cases of this already. And it's
been a standard dodge in fiction for *at least* 50
years.
END QUOTE

I read in the paper that a finger print scanner that
tells if the finger is a live by scanning under the
top layers of skin has been developed. This will
bugger up all those PC's who chop of peoples fingers
;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
Message-ID: <200204082337.DQN01624@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

hal@buffnet.net  says
>Two comments:
>
>1) PCCS can be streamlined with the use of Excel
>2) PCCS doesn't differentiate between someone who knows how 
>to use a pistol versus one who uses a shotgun
>
That's up to the referee to divide gun combat skills. It 
would appear that the designers left the "roleplaying" part 
of the game in a half-baked condition.  However, I haven't 
had any trouble mapping the system to CT skills.

>If you want to, build a simple database using excel and have 
>a single page that has the following entries:
>
>Weapon
>aim point
>aim time
>range
>Stance
>daylight
>
>Die roll to hit
>
That's not the problem so much as the players being happy 
with the action sequencing and pre-planned movement (in the 
advanced rules).  Most players are uncomfortable with action 
counts to that level of detail (a much higher level of detail 
than At Close Quarters or Snapshot).  

I've written an application in Smalltalk to do the whole 
firing and damage sequence - that was easy.  But it didn't 
solve the player's dislike of millisecond level detail.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408235622.20414.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
We'll gladly take you, son.  You don't have to be a
U.S. citizen to be a U.S. Marine.  I shared a barracks
room for a year with a Lebanese Christian 
who was still a Lebanese citizen.  Contact the closest
American consulate if you're serious.  Be sure to be
able to do lots of pull ups from a dead hang and run
three miles in under say 24 minutes.

And when you get off the plane to go to the Marine
Corps Recruit Depot, just remember these two words: 
"yellow footprints".  <WEG>

Much more serious advice.  Possibly the most important
advice you will ever get in your life.  Find an MOS
that gives you the training and expertise you want to
use in your civilian career after you get it, and get
that guaranteed in writing and signed by an officer. 
Do not accept any talk no matter how reasonable or
persuasive as a substitute.  Get the MOS you want, 
guaranteed.  In writing.  In writing.

--Laning
END QUOTE

Well I would try that except my mother would kill me
;)
She worries enough about me joining the reserves here,
let alone the regular army or god forbid the USMC. She
really worries that with all that's happening there is
going to be another big war. I will however take your
advice on getting my MOS guaranteed in writing from an
officer. I wouldn't want to end up cooking :) I may
even move down near Sydney so I can join a cavalry
unit. That way I wouldn't have to be a dirty rotten
leg :)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 18:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Mon Apr  8 17:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
In-Reply-To: <200204082337.DQN01624@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHMEDNDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

>> John Kwon
>> But it didn't solve the player's dislike of millisecond level detail.

Having played PCCS, I like the system a great deal.  However, actual use
becomes more of a simulation as opposed to an RPG, which is my take on why
people dont like it.  It is hard to come up with a good balance as players
want a wide spectrum of "realism" in their games.

As for the skills in the game, the rules were always meant to be added into
other systems as a combat overlay.  They just say "Gun skill" and leave the
referee to decide if it is for all Pistols, a specific pistol, or simply all
firearms.

Justin


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 18:32:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 17:32:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
In-Reply-To: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHMEDNDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
References: <200204082337.DQN01624@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020408203714.00e31ac0@buffnet.net>

At 05:23 PM 4/8/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>>> John Kwon
>>> But it didn't solve the player's dislike of millisecond level detail.
>
>Having played PCCS, I like the system a great deal.  However, actual use
>becomes more of a simulation as opposed to an RPG, which is my take on why
>people dont like it.  It is hard to come up with a good balance as players
>want a wide spectrum of "realism" in their games.
>
>As for the skills in the game, the rules were always meant to be added into
>other systems as a combat overlay.  They just say "Gun skill" and leave the
>referee to decide if it is for all Pistols, a specific pistol, or simply all
>firearms.

At one point in time, I created a set of rules for using PCCS with GURPS.
It worked relatively well.  My players still remember the time they caught
a military patrol in a ravine.  They had two laws plus assorted personal
fire arms (was an Aftermath like scenario).  Took out the radioman plus the
officer, along with the squad weapon user.  After that, it was mostly a mop
up.  The trick to using GURPS with PCCS is to use Movement points as action
points.  The average DX guy using guns with no weapon skill is a skill
rating of 7.  Someone marginally trained in the weapon is skill 10.  The
chart of course continues from there...

         Hal

PS - if you have the sci-fi version of the weapons from PCCS, it makes for
an interesting mix ;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 18:35:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 17:35:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB2DFC4.13707.BA0366@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 13:46, Sam Draper wrote:

> That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
> because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than
> the AK-47 or even the M14.

In that case the M14 must be considerably less accurate than the old M1 
Garand its based on. IMER the M1 is at least as accurate as the M16A1, 
assuming similar conditions.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408181400.027f5840@pop.wizard.net>

At 01:46 PM 4/8/02 -0600, you wrote:
>laning@wizard.net wrote:
>
> >With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to
> >the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300
> >feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the
> >government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting."
>
>I have not heard this before about Vietnam era ammo.

In the 1980s also.  Marines I knew would take samples home and take them 
apart.  I believe it was the sniper school at Quantico where one of the 
officers told me that the bullets were 52 grains, on average, rather than 
the 55 grains the government was paying for.  And there wasn't as much 
powder as there was supposed to be, but don't recall the specific numbers 
now.  I seem to recall reading something similar somewhere at the time, 
maybe in 'Soldier of Fortune'?  Anyway, I was told by the people who 
randomly checked the ammo that reached the front-line troops that we were 
typically getting 2100 fps, and it wasn't very unusual to get under 1800 
fps.  All of this is subject to my memory working correctly, which isn't 
just a boilerplate warning, I have significant problems with it.  The same 
kind of scams take place in government purchasing all the time.  Once the 
initial production runs have been accepted, the quality checks are very 
coarse and easy to see coming.  And possibly there's some graft at work, 
too.  Everything from clothing being a little lighter weight than paid for 
to rations being a little lighter.  An unscrupulous contractor often finds 
it's easy to increase their profit margin by five percent or so, this way.


>   I can tell you that
>current production military production Lake City and Winchester ammo is
>meeting mil-spec (3200+ fps for M193 (for M16A1s) and 3000+ fps for M855
>(for M16A2s)).

How is this data verified or acquired, please?  I'm just curious to get 
another data point, not being accusatory or argumentative.  :->

>   The army still buys M16A1 ammo for rifles still in service
>with the National Guard.  It is not match ammo, but the accuracy is pretty
>good.  Certainly good enough to hit a torso at 500 yards with iron sights.

We were all doing that with our crappy ammo in the 1980s.  It's easy when 
they hold nice and still and you can take your time firing.

> >government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam
> >had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other
> >assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.  Including poorer
> >accuracy.
>
>This guy Facker's experiences were exactly the opposite.  Most of the
>comlaints I have heard about the early M16 stems from the poor reliability,
>which was a result of the Army using the wrong kind of powder.

Partly.  What I hear mentioned only rarely is that any really high velocity 
weapon necessarily requires closer working tolerances for moving 
parts.  That means it doesn't take much foreign material or carbon 
accumulation to jam or slow down a moving part.  Which leads us to the 
major difference between the M-16 and the M-16A1, addition of the forward 
assist to help clear jams and addition of the ejection port cover to help 
keep foreign material away from the bolt.

>   There is
>also a pretty big prejudice against the smaller caliber, which is somewhat
>understandable given that few states allow hunters to use .223 on big game.
>And deer do not shoot back.  But the 7.62x39 is pretty similar ballistically
>to the venerable 30/30; with FMJ bullets it would hardly be a death ray
>either.

The talk about pros and cons of various infantry weapons is so larded with 
prejudices that I figure none of us who open our mouths on the topic are 
completely free of some prejudice on it.  And many are really bad.  John 
Wayne smashing the M-16 against a tree in 'The Green Berets' and calling it 
a child's plastic toy and blaming it for the death of his troops.  Well, 
they couldn't smash a real M-16 against a tree because alloy and fiberglass 
is a lot tougher than what they thought of it back in 1966.  The director 
had to get an actual plastic toy imitation of an M-16 so that "the Duke" 
could smash it.  And there are at least tens of thousands of people who to 
this day think it's a cheap plastic piece of junk because of that 
movie.  People who carried one in a combat zone themselves and should know 
better.


>That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
>because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than the
>AK-47 or even the M14.
>
> >Let us please leave as a separate thread the discussion of whether aimed
> >rifle fire is any different in battlefield effectiveness from unaimed
> >fire.
>
>Like I said above, the M16 is a very accurate platform.  It will make pretty
>small holes once the muzzle velocity falls below 2700 fps (about 15-200
>yards).  Fortunately, like you said, most opponents will take a powder once
>they are shot, no matter how severe the wound.
The muzzle velocity remains the same, regardless of how far away the target 
is.  Muzzle velocity is the speed of the bullet as it leaves the 
muzzle.  The projectile velocity declines as it loses momentum from air 
friction and succumbing to gravity.  Muzzle velocity for government ammo 
for the A1 was just over 2700 fps.  I should be able to remember the 
precise figure, I thought that was indelibly inscribed in memory.  Had 
trouble the other day remembering my EAS date too!  Imagine that one.  I 
guess the Marine Corps Birthday will be the next to go, followed by my own 
birthday.  Hand loaders can get 3250 fps with a 56-grain bullet.  Anyway, 
it shot pretty accurately for me on the rifle range even on some fairly 
windy days.  And my score went up about 4 or 5 points when they gave me the A2.

The 5.56 in each of its incarnations ended up being a distinct improvement 
over the M-1 carbine in performance, and a lot more manageable than those 
big ol' M-14s.  The days I had to go on long runs with a rifle at port arms 
I was damned glad that the M-14 was before my time, let me tell you!  As I 
recall learning it, the story of the M-16 becoming the standard US infantry 
rifle was as much politics as anything else.  It found its way to being 
proposed for sale to military allies in Southeast Asia and other places 
where the average soldier was much smaller and lighter than the average US 
soldier (because of its lighter weight and lower recoil), wound up being 
used by special American units that worked closely with said allies as much 
for compatibility as anything, then was chosen as a suitable "carbine" 
replacement for troops in vehicles and such who only need something for 
self defense, and finally ended up being given to everyone in the name of 
standardization.  At almost each step on that path, something more was done 
to nerf the weapon.  I am sure I don't have all the details right, but 
that's the gist of it.  The A2 model was basically a step towards 
un-nerfing it, and giving it back some of the power it had in one of its 
earlier forms.  That decision too, was as much politics as anything 
else.  The official reason given was compatibility with the 5.56 ammo used 
by NATO allies.

Basically, the M-16 is a good varmint rifle on steroids, with the furniture 
and "accessories" suitable for a good assault rifle.  Just like the M-1 
Garand or M-14 are good deer and other medium game rifles on steroids, with 
improved furniture and "accessories" for their day and suitable for the 
battlefield.

I don't think it's a stupid idea to take a varmint rifle and turn it into a 
combat rifle.  It does have its advantages.  But I'd feel more sanguine 
about firing a 130-, 150- or 180-grain bullet from something chambered for 
7.62 NATO or .303 British than a 55-grain bullet.  Like most other things, 
it's a combination of trade offs because you can't have one thing that will 
give you all the attributes you wish for.


> >Recently, Tod Glenn seems to have made the most articulate explanations on
> >the TML for why gauss weapons will be the infantry weapons of choice at
> >tech levels that permit them.
>
>That is very interesting.  I have read in tests that little darts at high
>velocities are remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do
>little tissue damage.  But odd things happen at high velocities.  I'll see
>if I can dig up my source.

We're talking about gauss weapon projectiles moving at speeds well in 
excess of 1,450 meters per second or faster, not feet per second.  Just to 
remind everyone of the perspective.  By way of comparison, the nominal 
2,710 feet/second muzzle velocity of the old M-16 is only 826 meters/second.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408211451.027f3ec0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon's soul quests desperately for completion:

>I've noticed that with skill resolution or combat resolution
>systems, you've got too simple (CT), or simply inaccurate
>with too much potatoes (GURPS), or wildly inaccurate with
>long weapon lists (Rifts), or terribly accurate but nearly
>unplayable unless you are all gearheads with 12 hours to do
>60 seconds of combat (PCCS).
>
>Friends, there has to be something better.

Perfect opportunity for computer-aided gaming.  Combat software with the 
terrain map, weather, characters, equipment, etc. and the player tells the 
ref what he wants his character to do and the ref tells the 
computer.  Enter the moves for all characters, then hit Enter and find out 
what happens.  All input and output should go through the ref, so the ref 
can alter the cut & dried calculations to conform with what the referee 
believes or wants to manipulate.

Nobody seems interesting in writing that software because they're either 
writing traditional RPG rules, miniatures rules, or a complete computer 
game.  I must say it's hard to think of a business model where the 
developers will get paid more than nickels and dimes, so it's hard to blame 
folks for not doing it.

What's needed is a Nonprofit Institute for the Advancement of Game Design, 
with good funding.  There is something a little bit like that out there 
now, but it focuses on complete computer games and has various troubles 
including funding.  Or an open-source movement for computer-aided gaming 
that's widespread, the way the Linus open-source movement is widespread.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:26:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:26:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408180047.009f1d00@mindspring.com>

At 12:32 AM 4/9/02 +1200, you wrote:

>I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were
>based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped
>their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its
>subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its
>companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it
>belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles,
>field ovens, etc.

Give the man a see-gar.  I based the Imperial Army units in GF on the 
standards for Soviet units of similar size and missions. A Motorized Rifle 
Regiment was supposed to be a self-contained combat unit, able to fight on 
its own without the constant need to be tied to higher command just to 
perform its basic mission.

>I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
>the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
>used to supply and support its troops.

Remember what they say about assumptions...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:27:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:27:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408180410.00a05160@mindspring.com>

At 01:14 PM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>What about the Sergeant (Apone?) - I thought the role of an NCO was to 
>stop the officers messing everything up? Clearly he has more experience 
>than Gorman and yet he's quite happy to lead his troops into an unknown 
>environment against an unknown force AND he gives all the ammo to one man.

Apone was given a legal order by his commanding officer.  He followed 
it.  Evidently, SOP was to have one man carry all the ammo.  Oops. I'm 
surprised he didn't know that Drake had the extra BFG thingies.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
 <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408181304.009eb5c0@mindspring.com>

At 03:04 PM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and 
>equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really 
>good work being done there.

More than half the book is game neutral.  Just good information about the 
forces.

>The Keith-class was named in honor?  Well done.  :->

The lander's name is the M. Keith's name run through a Vilani name generator.


>If I were the Imperium, I wouldn't bother to build standard troop 
>transports that carry less than a complete battalion.  Brigades or 
>divisions would have logistical elements that are more forward on the 
>battlefield, and most of the logistical tail on the ground would be at 
>corps level or higher.  It sounds like the Keith class represents pretty 
>similar thinking.  :->

Yep.  I had a design for a *divisional* cold-sleep ship, but I had to make 
some space choices.

>I think there is a very important, but still subsidiary, role for ships 
>that transport and land Imperial Marine companies and it sounds like you 
>think the same way.  You're probably aware that the US considers the 
>Marine battalion to be the standard chunk to embark and deploy, plus full 
>supporting elements.  But there are a lot of ways in which they are poor 
>analogues for Imperial Marines.

Credit where credit is due Dpt. The vehicle and ship designs were the work 
of others.. I just put out deign ideas on a mailing list I established for 
the purpose, and we debated the various designs.  The entire 
Sunburst-series missile sleds were really fun to come up with.

>Your grav sleds make a lot of sense.  I bet you have ambulance sleds, aid 
>station sleds, and field kitchen sleds too?

These are simple conversion of the basic G-carrier, much like the US Army 
has these variations for the Hum-vee.'

>Finally, I've been meaning for a long time to compliment you on the sig 
>about embracing fascism because the uniforms look cool.  Nice.

Once again, not mine.  It was uttered on the TML by a soul who asked not to 
be attributed in the sig.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:35:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:35:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408180047.009f1d00@mindspring.com>
References: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB2EDB0.4851.F063FB@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 18:03, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 12:32 AM 4/9/02 +1200, you wrote:
> 
> >I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were
> >based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped
> >their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its
> >subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its
> >companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it
> >belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles,
> >field ovens, etc.
> 
> Give the man a see-gar.  I based the Imperial Army units in GF on the
> standards for Soviet units of similar size and missions. A Motorized
> Rifle Regiment was supposed to be a self-contained combat unit, able to
> fight on its own without the constant need to be tied to higher command
> just to perform its basic mission.

I was actually talking about the SMC and Striker II Imperial units (I 
already knew yours were based of the Soviets, though to me some of them 
look more like a US unit).
 
> >I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
> >the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
> >used to supply and support its troops.
> 
> Remember what they say about assumptions...

I never claimed that the Imperium was always right, or omnicompetent. 
:)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:38:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:38:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
Message-ID: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning tasks me
>
>Perfect opportunity for computer-aided gaming.  Combat 
>software with the terrain map, weather, characters, 
>equipment, etc. and the player tells the 
>ref what he wants his character to do and the ref tells the 
>computer.  Enter the moves for all characters, then hit 
>Enter and find out 
>what happens.

There's no reason I couldn't write this.  There's no reason 
it couldn't run over the Internet, either.

Damn you, laning....
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:39:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:39:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408181304.009eb5c0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB2EEB9.12979.F4729E@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 18:19, Douglas Berry wrote:

> Once again, not mine.  It was uttered on the TML by a soul who asked not
> to be attributed in the sig.

Wasn't that in relation to the Starship Troopers movie?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:41:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:41:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <200204090139.DQR01653@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>Oops. I'm surprised he didn't know that Drake had the extra 
>BFG thingies.
>

If I had the weapon out of the armory, M-16 or M21 or M24, I 
always had ammunition - even if I had not been issued any, or 
had been ordered to "give it up".
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 20:01:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 19:01:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408211451.027f3ec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:21:16PM -0400
References: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020408211451.027f3ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020408200055.A2997@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:21:16PM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> Nobody seems interesting in writing that software because they're either 
> writing traditional RPG rules, miniatures rules, or a complete computer 
> game.  I must say it's hard to think of a business model where the 
> developers will get paid more than nickels and dimes, so it's hard to blame 
> folks for not doing it.

My business model is I write software I want, then GPL it.  Thus it is
now and forevermore free, and will hopefully be of some use to the
world at large.  I pay for food by another mechanism entirely.

> Or an open-source movement for computer-aided gaming that's
> widespread, the way the Linux open-source movement is widespread.

Well, it's easy enough: start writing.  Linux didn't start out
well-funded; indeed, the vast majority of its development was
_unfunded_.  The whole mechanism is that one writes the kind of
software one wishes to use--then by using it, discovers where the
problems are, and fixes them.  The use of the GPL ensures that anyone
else who fixes a problem is incented to release his (small)
modification to your (major) work.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We English-speaking peoples should keep hold of the essential fact about
foreign languages: They exist to make us laugh.        --John Derbyshire

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 20:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 19:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <3CB2EEB9.12979.F4729E@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408181304.009eb5c0@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408190941.009f9670@mindspring.com>

At 01:38 PM 4/9/02 +1200, you wrote:
>On 8 Apr 2002 at 18:19, Douglas Berry wrote:
>
> > Once again, not mine.  It was uttered on the TML by a soul who asked not
> > to be attributed in the sig.
>
>Wasn't that in relation to the Starship Troopers movie?

Yep.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 20:53:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon Apr  8 19:53:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 08, 2002 12:47:07 AM
Message-ID: <200204090153.g391rtO02801@localhost.uia.net>

> Chemical reaction rates depend strongly on the mass of the atoms. Atoms
> with similar properties (same column in the periodic table) react at
> rates that are strongly connected with their mass differences. 
>
> So the rates might increase dramaticly.

Under, say 99%, inertial suppression, the mass-ratios would still
be the same as under zero suppression.
 
> Molecular collisions in air would result in the molecules stopping,
> rather than rebounding. So the opposing portions of their vectors would
> cancel out. Add in the effects of gravity, and all the air molecules
> would be in a thin layer near the floor. 

But gravity would have less of a pull of the air molecules, being that
they would have a lower apparent mass under inertial suppresion, so
again we're looking at these effects cancelling each other out.

> Thermal effects on the gases get weird too.

I'm not sure how to handle these.

Speaking on the atomic level:
> Then you're dead. Too many of the forces at those levels *do* depend on
> inertia. Lowering inertia raises the *effective* force.

I'm not sure what the effective force is. I've heard of strong, the
weak, the electromagnetic, and gravity. Maybe we should only be
considering these forces and how atoms would be effected different by
a lower constant for inertia across the entire system being considered.
Basically, I'm looking for an effect that would not cancel out. In
the first example you gave, you say that one molecule won't react
properly with another because the former's mass is too low. But what
if both of their masses are lower by the same percentage? In the
second example, you say that atoms bouncing against each other will
tend not to bounce as much under inertial suppression, and will tend
to crowd at the floor. But you fail to consider that gravity will have
less of a pull on inertia-suppressed molecules, so that the crowding
shouldn't occur. I think it would be better to look at really simple
problems in a closed system involving only a pair of atoms to show
how their movements would be changed if BOTH of their apparent masses
were lowered by the same percentage.

If we only look at gravity, I don't see there being any difference
in their movements. Masses fall at the same speed (newton). So inertial
supression should have no effect on gravity. As for the other four
forces, I don't know enough physics to answer that.

> As an example, the reason that water doesn't boil at around -150 F is
> because of Van der waals forces. Compare the boiling points of hydrogen
> oxide, hydrogen sulfide, and so on down that column in the periodic
> table. All of them *but* H2O have very low boiling points. 
>
> Lowering the inertia of the molecules will have the effect of adding
> similar forces. Which will change the physical and chemical properties
> of compounds *drastically*. 

Does this example consider that the entire system is inertially
suppressed to the same percentage, and that all four of the fundamental
forces are effected accordingly?

> >> This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
> >> work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
> >> viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.
> >
> > Except that your heart would also be of a lower apparent mass.
> 
> What's *that* got to do with it? The pumping forces are due to
> contraction of the muscle fibers. The mass of the heart has little
> relevance there. The only effect it'd have (to the first order, anyway)
> is making it *easier* to contract. 

Which is why I'd rather look at really simple systems of only a
pair of atoms, so that all the complicating factors can be taken
out of the way and we can see what would really occur at the most
fundamental level.
 
> > Instead of thinking of a normal pool ball hitting a styrofoam ball,
> > think of one styrofoam ball hitting another one. On the molecular
> > scale, I'm guessing that this would be more akin to what would be
> > happening. -Jim
> 
> Nope. Because you lose the rebound. 

I'm not talking about 100% inertial suppression. I agree that
this would cause a great deal of strangeness, which I don't
really want to examine. For practical purposes, I'm talking about
suppression somewhere between 90% and 99.999%. -Jim
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 21:05:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 20:05:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405074625.009ee8d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20408.200150.0q9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 05:45 AM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>Although my Dante is rusty and my personal sentiments
>>don't agree...
>>
>>"Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."
>
> That's Milton, from "Paradise Lost."
>
> Dante's best line came from The Inferno... the inscription on the gates of 
> Hell.
>
> "I AM THE WAY INTO THE CITY OF WOE
> I AM THE WAY TO A FORSAKEN PEOPLE
> I AM THE WAY INTO ETERNAL SORROW
>
> SACRED JUSTICE MOVED MY ARCHITECT
> I WAS RAISED THERE BY DIVINE OMNIPOTENCE
> PRIMORDIAL LOVE AND ULTIMATE INTELLECT.
>
> ONLY THOSE ELEMENTS TIME CANNOT WEAR
> WERE MADE BEFORE ME, AND BEYOND TIME I STAND.
> ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."
>
> I want that on the door to my gaming room.. :)

WSounds like the routine I pulled one Halloween when the local <adult>
club I belonged to was having a "play party". 

I'd answer the door, smile at the people and use a sweeping hand
gesture to invite them in as I quoted Dracula (from the movie):

"Enter freely, and of your own will..."

Only a few got it. You could tell by the *look* on their faces and the
way they thought it over for a minute before entering. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 21:06:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 20:06:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Tugs, etc
In-Reply-To: <200204041934.DIV01979@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20408.192730.5x5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I haven't seen many designs for a "tug", a useful vessel for 
> attaching to and moving other larger vessels.  Might also be 
> useful for moving large asteroids that come in from the outer 
> system and pose a hazard to navigation (or even to a planet).
>
> Was just reading
> http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-space-
> menace0404apr04.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnationworld%2Dheadlines
>
> and had a mental picture of some bored tug crew getting 
> orders to move out and push this piece of rock into the sun.

Solar impact trajectories require about half again as much delta-V as a
system escape trajactory.


escape velocity = sqrt(2) * orbital velocity.

Since you have to kill better than 90% of the oribital velocity to hit
the star....

It's *far* simpler to just adjust the orbit to not go near anyplace you
care about or to nudge it into a parking orbit around something.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 21:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon Apr  8 20:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 08, 2002 12:47:07 AM
Message-ID: <200204090209.g3929Gw02878@localhost.uia.net>

Okay, I'm going to post an argument which another friend
just sent me. This might scuttle the idea of inertial
suppression. Let me know what you think.

Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
suppression, they move toward each other much faster
than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
I wrong? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 22:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 21:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051636.DKL02665@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20408.201302.1d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> ObTrav:  The easiest holdout to design would be a laser.  You 
> could isolate the powerpack and electronics at some other 
> location under the clothing, run a fiber optic cable to the 
> hand area, contrive a trigger (ring pull?), and have the exit 
> optics somewhere over the back of the hand.  If you made a 
> fist, and curled the fist inward, the ring would pull the 
> trigger and the beam would fire over the back of the hand.

The optical fiber that can handle a weapons grade laser doesn't exist.
And isn't likely to. 

And one bit of damage and the laser energy gets deposited in the
damaged section of fiber. Ouch!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 22:41:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 21:41:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Grav Kitchens
Message-ID: <7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe@aol.com>

--part1_7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   I'd like to see that design :)
  -Ken-

--part1_7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;I'd like to see that design :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 22:46:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr  8 21:46:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <F149PnvEZZ91Lhdms4Q000022be@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1df81$7b919c00$0b01a8c0@duck>

>      You are correct, sir.  My apologies for "bum doping" the List.

And I apologize for sounding like a jerk.  I sometimes forget
how stuff will appear when someone else reads it.

>      "While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I
> don't see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the
> trick is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it."
>
>      Yes, seeding the star with enough tungsten and aiming correctly will
> take time.  Perhaps the Darrians use multiple probes to increase their
> chances?

That is a pretty reasonable idea.  I figure they would be jumping in with
a fleet, not just a squadron.  They probably have a couple of "probe" ships
and multiple ships that can deliver the meson trigger.

Plus, I also figure they would be dependent on relative surprise.  If they
face a coordinated defense that is expecting them, they are probably best
advised to try a different system in a week or so.

[ BIG snip ]
>      The "real" reason the Star Trigger wasn't used during all those
> centuries is that weapons of mass destruction aren't, except in very rare
> cases, used to ensure you'll WIN a war.  They're used to ensure that the
> other fellow LOSES the war.  This is a important distinction.  The Star
> Trigger and MAD, on which it is based, is a suicide pact; "You push us too
> far and we'll make sure we all die, you included."

Good point.  I was focused on the SW, not the bigger picture.  The
background does imply that the Star Trigger was created with the Zhodani
in mind, not the SW.  (Though if their relationship ever went sour,
they would probably include the Imperium with the Zhodani.)

>      The Trigger can be used defensively rather easily, by employing it
you
> ensure that the power about to conquer you is left with nothing worth
> conquering.  Using the Trigger offensively, like nukes, is far tougher.
...

I seriously doubt the Darrians would destroy their own worlds to prevent
capture.  The only reason I can think of for them to intentionally use
the Star Trigger in one of their own systems is if they believed they could
nail a major fleet, then come back in to fix the system.

They would, however, without hesitation do a deep penetration to wipe
out an enemy world.  Or several.

>      "I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an incredible
> accomplishment in its own right."
>
>      Keeping the secret that the Trigger demonstration was a fake was the
> really incrediable accomplishment.  The fakers had to fool both the
> observers from the other powers AND their own people utterly and
> completely.
>   Why didn't the secret never leak out?  Mass suicide among the project
> staff over "creating" so horrible a weapon?

I imagine the Darrians would be pragmatic enough to have a mass "suicide"
to keep the secret.  I figure some of those in the "suicide" really did
commit real suicide after making sure the "suicides" took place.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020409053141.28337.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Apone was given a legal order by his commanding
officer. He followed it.  Evidently, SOP was to have
one man carry all the ammo.  Oops. I'm surprised he
didn't know that Drake had the extra BFG thingies.
END QUOTE

No Doug, Vasquez had the extra links for the smart
guns. Tsk tsk tsk. Strap him down boys he needs
another four hours on continous loop. :) The thing I
find strange about the movie is that Apone doesn't
comment on Drake and Vasquez taking point even though
they have   "supposedly" disarmed weapons! The funny
thing is Aliens fans have bigger debates over the
whole "they don't show up on infrared issues" (If the
aliens temp is low enough not to show up on infrared,
they wouldn't be able to move fast)than even the TML
piracy debates. However we have a better handwave, its
those damned cheapskate manufacturers of IR gear ;)

Does anyone have tonnages for a TL-15 PAWS* spinal
mount.


*Penguin Accelerator Weapon System

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:38:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:38:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAIEKKCOAA.redroach@pobox.com>

The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
civilians.  It has little or no military application,
contrary to popular mythos.

I don't know about that. I saw a story on the History channel about a Marine
officer in Korea I think. He made his men take bayonet practice even though
it was outdated.  They got pinned down on patrol and ran out of ammo.  THe
officer led a successful bayonet charge up a hill which wiped out the North
Koreans. That sounds a bit drastic, but useful.

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:41:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:41:10 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin
 gs
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

I know this has probably gone the round on the TML, but just in case. 

Star Wars Name =

First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name

First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
were born. 

Which makes me Mikhu Huper

Damn it, I sound like the old store keeper dude from Sesame Street. 

Apologies if already discussed/known/rejected 'cause it's not canon,
concerns pirates and/or near C rocks etc. 

So Darrien Thistle, born in Ermington, with his mothers maiden name of
Vaddlepettle would be

.... Darth Vader

Nice. 

Mikey

Ob Trav: I think that is clear. 

PS So if Dave Jaques Watson was born in Canberra, and his mother's name was
Smith, he would be Davwa Smcan.

I think I'll make him the evil dude in my next campaign (someone with an
incurable, non fatal but disfiguring disease).

Heh Heh Heh. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>; from Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:02:40PM +1000
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020408234503.A15920@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:02:40PM +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name

Robuh

> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born. 

Menor

Robuh Menor--yer right; sounds vaguely like one of Lucas's fevered
imaginings.  Sehr amusant.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:52:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:52:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204090209.g3929Gw02878@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <200204090209.g3929Gw02878@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
> an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
> move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
> suppression, they move toward each other much faster
> than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
> I wrong?

If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
on each ion, then it is true.

If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
factor of 10.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <20020408.225739.-3503.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 14:02:40 +1000 "Hughes, Michael"
<Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au> writes:
>  
> Star Wars Name =Barst Cotor
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first 
> name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town 
> where you were born. 

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:57:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:57:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <OF1B531251.5105373F-ONCA256B95.001A7F77@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408225507.00ace4c0@mail.verizon.net>

Yes, Dear Hyphen, it's definitely Monday!!!  ;-)

At 12:51 PM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Dear Folks -
>
>Charles replied to Laning thus:
> >>We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including
> >>ironing.  Every service a hotel provides, basically.
> >
> >Even hookers?
>
>Certainly! Just the things you need to grab on to when you perform an EVA
>and the ship decides to lurch suddenly.
>
>...or did I misunderstand your point?
>
>;-)  ;-)  ;-)
>
>(It really _must_ be Monday.)
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 00:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Mon Apr  8 23:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F210WagewMS59IvqvIy000169c3@hotmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn writes:

> > That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
> > because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than
> > the AK-47 or even the M14.
>
>In that case the M14 must be considerably less accurate than the old M1
>Garand its based on. IMER the M1 is at least as accurate as the M16A1,
>assuming similar conditions.

I think the M14 and M1, as weapons platforms, probably get pretty similar 
accuracy.  After all, the M14 is clearly derived from the M1.  The M14 is 
probably more accurate solely because the 308 round is more accurate than 
30-06.  This has something to do with the case being squatter and the shape 
of the case shoulder.  The M14 over time replaced the M1 as the premier 
firearm in military matches.  The M14 is now being replaced in that role by 
the M16, which is shooting better than either of its predecessors.  These 
match rifles have a number of upgrades from standard rifles, so that 
probably does not tell you that much about issue rifles.  The Army's minimum 
standard for accuracy is pretty lousy (4 MOA IIRC), so any of these rifles 
would probably fit that bill.

But as to your basic point that an M1 gets better accuracy than an M16A1, as 
far as issue weapons I would not be too sure.  The M16's action probably 
gives better accuracy.  Also, the M1's wood stock is not so great when you 
do a lot of firing.  The M16 has much less recoil.  On the other hand, the 
M16 is lousy if you are using a sling (because the sling connects to the 
front sight which is connected directly to the barrel) and it has a very 
thin barrel.  I bet the M16A2, with the heavy barrel, does better than the 
Garand though.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 00:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon Apr  8 23:27:08 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
References: <20020407.214938.-3991.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CB28B2B.81ED4C11@attbi.com>


generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> I assumed the 3 meters was deck to deck, allowing the extra space for
> conduits, ducts, overhead lighting,, pipes, electrical stuff, grav plates
> etc.
> 
 
But, that is all engineering space..

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 00:54:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Apr  8 23:54:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408123225.02823ec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408123225.02823ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8d83e5696fb@[198.123.22.190]>

At 1:36 PM -0400 4/8/02, laning wrote:
>Leonard Erickson discusses the antihijacker issue:
>>  > If nobody else does, then
>>>  insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security
>>>  measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time
>>>  and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.
>>
>>You are considering *installation* costs. I'm talking about the costs
>>in time wasted due to "overly stringent" security getting in the way.
>>
>>Oil tankers are expensive too. So are modern freighters. And *safety*
>>gear on them that "gets in the way" is routinely bypassed by crews,
>>never mind "security" gear.
>
>I wholeheartedly agree that personnel will tend to ignore things 
>that are inconvenient.  That's partly why insurers and lenders and 
>regulators at starports will be the ones insisting on enforcement 
>through certifications and inspections.  They won't expect ship 
>crews to take care of it on their own.

While I haven't followed the thread far enough to follow all the 
issues, I think there is a point to be made here.  One can't just 
assume insurance company will force any security measure you can 
think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be unpopular and, 
unless the savings in costs is _significant_, there won't be enough 
of a change in premiums to compensate.

-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 01:09:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 00:09:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F84ekOtJI52I0jYn6hx00003845@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>Anyway, I was told by the people who
>randomly checked the ammo that reached the front-line troops that we were
>typically getting 2100 fps, and it wasn't very unusual to get under 1800
>fps.

Were you getting a lot of failures to feed?  I am just wondering if such 
weak ammo could get the action to cycle reliably.

>How is this data verified or acquired, please?  I'm just curious to get
>another data point, not being accusatory or argumentative.  :->

This is from my rifle with a chronograph, and recent surplus ammo (1999-2001 
production for LC; I think the WCC was older, like 1991).

>Muzzle velocity for government ammo for the A1 was just over 2700 fps.

While there may have been some bad ammo, I do not think the spec for the 55 
grain ammo (M193) has changed since the round was first standardized.  It 
has always required a muzzle velocity of 3250 fps, measured 15' from the 
muzzle (from TM 43-0001-27).  The new 62 grain round (M1855) is supposed to 
go 3025 fps, measured 78 feet from the muzzle.

>I don't think it's a stupid idea to take a varmint rifle and turn it
>into a combat rifle.  It does have its advantages.  But I'd feel more
>sanguine about firing a 130-, 150- or 180-grain bullet from something
>chambered for 7.62 NATO or .303 British than a 55-grain bullet.  Like
>most other things, it's a combination of trade offs because you can't
>have one thing that will give you all the attributes you wish for.

Interestingly, most modern militaries are adopting 5.56 rifles and dropping 
the bigger calibers.  This is even true of weapons like the FAL which could, 
with some work, be made as flexible as far as mounting optics and 
accessories as the M16A4 or M4.

It makes me wonder a little if the Army decided that infantry are not that 
effecive anyway, so it might as well give the boys something that shoots 
lightweight ammo.  On the other hand, maybe they think 5.56 is enough, 
because if someone has a hole in them, even a .22 hole, they will be out of 
action.  Whichever is the case, most other armies seem to be buying into it 
too.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 01:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Tue Apr  9 00:56:08 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
In-Reply-To: <200204082055.DQH04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204091051290.24305-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >Please enlighten me.  PCCS?
> Phoenix Command Combat System, 4th Edition, with all 
> supplements. A product of the now defunct Leading Edge Games.
> The advanced small arms damage tables from the game came from 
> Computerman, a model you may recall.  Now try that by hand 
> instead of by computer.

You might consider using a laptop. Couple of people known to me have held
Vietnam and the Finnish Winter War scenarios here in some rpg cons here in
Finland, and the game went very smoothly, even with players who didn't
know the system. 

Sadly, the Vietnam campaign's www pages are in Finnish, and I can't find
the Winter War pages.

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 01:59:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue Apr  9 00:59:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

A gaming system where everybody contributes rules like
linux? That's a great idea. Wish I could program.
People are still gonna argue rules and realism though.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 02:41:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue Apr  9 01:41:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Grav Kitchens (MT)
In-Reply-To: <7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEPLEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of MurfNMurf@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2002 12:41 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Grav Kitchens


 I'd like to see that design :)
 -Ken-

Your wish...

G-M90 CLASS GRAV FIELD KITCHEN
It is a well known fact that all armies march on their stomachs, and it was
with this in mind that the Terrans introduced the G-M90 grav field kitchen
to provide hot meals for troops in the field.

CraftID: Grav Field Kitchen, TL13, Cr1,075,680
Hull: 5/12, Disp=5, Config=4SL, Armour=4F,
Unloaded=20.587 tons, Loaded=36.495 tons
Power: 1/2, Fusion=12Mw, Duration=30/90
Loco: 1/2, StdGravThrust=54tons, NOE=170kph, Cruise=432kph,
Top=576kph, MaxAccel=0.48G
Commo: Radio=Regional
Sensors: PassiveEMS=VDistant, ActiveEMS=Distant,
Environment, Radiation, Headlights x2,
ActObjScan=Form, ActObjPin=Form, PasObjScan=Form,
Off/Def: Hardpoints=1
Control: Computer=0bis x2, Panel=holographic link x1,
Special=headsUp display x1,
Environ=basic env, basic ls,extend ls, grav plates,
inertial compensators
Accom: Crew=3, (Driver/Cook=1, Cooks=2), Seats=roomy x4
Other: Cargo=14.9 kliters, Fuel=14.4 kliters
1 Air Lock,
1 10kl Field Kitchen Module,
No Fuel Purification Plant,
ObjSize=Small, No Fuel Scoops,
EmLevel=Moderate
Comments: Field Kitchen Module taken from Striker 1.
Construction Time=24 weeks single, 20 weeks multiple


Antony



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 02:58:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 01:58:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020409053141.28337.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

James Ramsay wrotw :

> The thing I find strange about the movie is that
> Apone doesn't comment on Drake and Vasquez taking
> point even though they have "supposedly" disarmed
> weapons!

That's because he _knew_ they'd still have rounds.
But couldn't officially know it, if you know what I mean.

> The funny
> thing is Aliens fans have bigger debates over the
> whole "they don't show up on infrared issues" (If the
> aliens temp is low enough not to show up on infrared,
> they wouldn't be able to move fast)

This has always been simple to explain.
They didn't show up on infrared _in_that_scene_ because they
are the same temperature as the nest materiel they are hiding
in, which is not cold itself. (Look at the steam and the
location)

The person who yelled it was obviously not thinking straight at
the time or they'd have realized this fact.

At other times, no-one needs to look for them on IR because they
are in the open or in situations where IR is not the best means
of detection.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 02:59:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 01:59:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Douglas Berry wrote :
> At 11:08 AM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>
> >One word. F*#&ing officers.
> >Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
> >officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
> >enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
> >interview on the DVD).
>
> OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was
> inexperienced, that's all.

As can be seen the fact he had never done a live drop.

Note that The Company probably pulled strings to _ensure_ that an
inexperienced officer was sent, so he was more likley to accede
to the company man's wishes.

An experienced officer would likely have told the company man to
go fuck himself, and probably have shot the guy on the spot once
his treachery with Ripley and Newt was exposed.

"Treason in the face of the enemy while under martial law" or
some such charge would do, with death as a summary judgement. As
highest ranking military officer on a colony under martial law, I
suspect he would effectively have the powers of God, even if the
Company was pretty powerful back home, it would be setting a
dangerous precedent
for the Colonial Marines to have _not_ backed up their man on the
spot, and the Company could just claim their man had gone rogue.

> All he knew was the
> book, and suddenly the book went out the window
> as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

Actually, the way the marines fell apart when they were first
jumped makes me think the rest of them weren't that experienced
either, just gung ho. And with Apone down in the first few
seconds, probably the only real experience other than Ripley's
was gone.

> Win the shit came down, he covered his people,

However it was Ripley that went back to get the people, Gorman
was still dithering when she took over the APC and drove it into
the hive.

> and went back to get Vasquez, then sacrificed himself
> to slow the enemy down.  In my view, those are the
> kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.

Yeah, I haver to agree with Doug here.

If "Aliens" was an anti-Vietnam film it was the worst one ever
made.
Especially as the US was out of Vietnam well before the movie was
even started.

The person who deserves the biggest rocket up the arse in
"Aliens" (military-wise) is the pilot of the dropship.
Though she was originally told that the LZ had been secured,
she'd never make a Traveller-PC group.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 03:00:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 02:00:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8d83e5696fb@[198.123.22.190]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :
> While I haven't followed the thread far enough to
> follow all the  issues, I think there is a point
> to be made here.  One can't just assume insurance
> company will force any security measure you can
> think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be
> unpopular and, unless the savings in costs is
> _significant_, there  won't be enough
> of a change in premiums to compensate.

The insurance comany won't change it's premiums.

There will just be a clause in the contract, similar to the one
that exists with most vehicle insurance now, that if your vehicle
was not warranted at the time of the accident, or it was being
driven by an unlicensed driver, they won't pay out.

They won't even bother inspecting (or telling you about it) until
_after_ you make the claim. Then they will ask you for your
warrant and masters ticket, and if you can't produce them they
will refuse to pay out.

The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
starport will do it (for important safety and financial reasons,
would you want an unwarranted vehicle approaching an extremely
expensve space station?), there won't be any real choice except
for the captains to take the risk of not doing it and not go to
the better starports

There may even be legal requirenments in many systems.
Unwarranted ships will be told to leave immediately, or stay
stationary until they are warranted.

Given the way the Imperium operates it is unlikely the Imperium
itself will have or enforce such rules, except at the request of
member worlds if a merchant is being a bit recalcitrant, However
the Imperium may set the standards that the member worlds
legislate as they desire.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 03:45:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 02:45:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Greetings dear hearts.

Insurance companies have been in the business of ripping clients off since 
they began, and I doubt they'll change...

However, they do often state preconditions, as well as having 'weasel' 
clauses in the contract. When I took out household insurance a while back 
I had to upgrade the front door lock and they wanted me to get a burglar 
alarm until I told them I kept a Doberman pinscher :-)

So I can see there being a whole raft of terms & conditions if you want 
'3rd party, fire & theft' insurance on your starship: -

Anti-hijack program - they probably insist on you using one provided or 
one that is demonstrably at least as good.

Access control to the vessel of a given standard... they'll ask what you 
have and/or specify minimum requirements.

Qualifications required of operators (master's ticket, etc.)

Restrictions on where you are supposed to go - e.g., "Company must be 
informed prior to visits to any system classified as an Amber Zone. 
Insurance not valid for any travel in systems classified as Red Zone."

Oh dear, if I'm not careful I'll end up writing an insurance contract here 
*grin*

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 03:53:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 02:53:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name things
Message-ID: <200204090952.DRH01545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hughes, Michael" says
<snip section on making up names>

At the end of the movie "She's Having A Baby" several other 
famous types each take a turn at naming babies.  Dan Akroyd 
comes up with three names, all suitable for various campaign 
characters rather than babies.  Of course, even though I had 
watched the movie, I never noticed this until I played in a 
D&D campaign where the three arch enemies had these names - 
and they were led by the evil Nargausius.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 04:48:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue Apr  9 03:48:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name
 thin gs
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020409104751.6e9d13fd.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Hughes, Michael wrote:
> Star Wars Name =
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where
you
> were born. 

Jenry Hakar

The first name is very amusing... look at my e-mail address and see why.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 05:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue Apr  9 04:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B73@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Pitt [mailto:frankie@mundens.gen.nz]
> Sent: 09 April 2002 10:08
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?
> 
> 
> David P. Summers wrote :
> > While I haven't followed the thread far enough to
> > follow all the  issues, I think there is a point
> > to be made here.  One can't just assume insurance
> > company will force any security measure you can
> > think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be
> > unpopular and, unless the savings in costs is
> > _significant_, there  won't be enough
> > of a change in premiums to compensate.
> 
> The insurance comany won't change it's premiums.
> 
> There will just be a clause in the contract, similar to the one
> that exists with most vehicle insurance now, that if your vehicle
> was not warranted at the time of the accident, or it was being
> driven by an unlicensed driver, they won't pay out.
> 
> They won't even bother inspecting (or telling you about it) until
> _after_ you make the claim. Then they will ask you for your
> warrant and masters ticket, and if you can't produce them they
> will refuse to pay out.
> 
> The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
> required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
> may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
> starport will do it (for important safety and financial reasons,
> would you want an unwarranted vehicle approaching an extremely
> expensve space station?), there won't be any real choice except
> for the captains to take the risk of not doing it and not go to
> the better starports

Ok, how long does this Warrant last? Is it similar to the MOT in the UK
for cars? i.e. an annual check of the vehicles condition and compliance
with regulations?

If so, most crews will disable the hindering security aspects (if these
are even covered by the warranting procedure) until such time as they
are approaching annual maintenance and warranting, re-enable them just
befor inspection, then promptly disable them again after certification.

And in any case, a car can be insured against theft even if it doesn't
have steering locks, a car alarm and an immobiliser fitted, so why can't
a starship? Yes, your premium will be a tad higher, but unless theft of
starships is commonplace stringent security won't be a *requirement* of
insurance.

There is a world of difference between a safe ship and a secure one, and
all STC will be concerned with is safety.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 07:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr  9 06:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Roseberrys used HG2 ship lot #2
Message-ID: <3CB2EA6B.7D7D51B5@mail.cswnet.com>

Here are more beauties on the tarmac...
We're slashing prices; everything must go!
Discounts up to 20%
Buy now and get your choice of a Penguin, Tribble, Cabit, or Jackalope
as gift**

**not available in Solomani Rim outlets

Iye-Rethar class auxiliary tender
QT-A1011B2-000000-00007-0  Mcr320.29 std. 1000dt
       one battery          Crew=22       TL=8
Fuel=10 EP=10 Agile=1 Cargo=520 Tankage Fuel=200
Fuel Scoops and Purification plant
Crew=22 [11 officers with 11-4dt staterooms; 11 ratings-with 2dt
rooms]  Lowberths=20 100dt missle bay=1

Aries Eagle class missle boat
MB-A1022B2-700000-00007-0  Mcr940.35 std. 1000dt
one battery                Crew=18  TL=7
Fuel=100 EP=20 Agile=2 Fuel Scoops
Auxiliary 1G manuever drive=1 Auxiliary 1pn power plant=1
Auxiliary Mod 1 fib computer=1 Auxiliary bridge=1
Crew=18 [officers=8, ratings=10.] Marines=31 Frozen watch=42
4dt staterooms=2 [1 each for ship and marine commander]
2dt staterooms=49 [1 passenger possible]
100dt missle bay=1

Ether class Battleship*
BB-A1017B2-800000-00600-0  Mcr1466.54std. 1000dt
one battery                Crew=21  TL=8
Fuel=140 EP=70 Agile=1 Fuel scoops and Purification Plant
Crew=21[11 officers, 10 ratings]
4dt staterooms=11 2dt staterooms=10
Cargo=2 100dt partical accelerator bay=1
*At TL8, this is a Battleship. At TL15, this is a target craft.

Reill class patrol cruiser
PC-A1267E2-130000-00008-0  Mcr1158.284 std. 1100dt
            3         1    Crew=26 Marines=21 TL=11
            3         1
Fuel=297 [jump fuel=220, plant fuel=77] EP=77 Agile=6
1-1dt triple sandcaster turret 1-100dt missle bay
Crew=26[13 officers, 13 ratings] Marines=21
4dt staterooms=13 2dt staterooms=34 Cargo=26

Stacker class repair tug
QT-1204721-000000-20000-0 Mcr94.907 std 100dt
one battery--pulse lasers  Crew=5  TL12
Fuel=7 EP=7 Agile=4 Cargo=3.4dt Fuel scoops and purification plant
1-1dt tripple pulse laser turret
1-10dt machine shop 1-6dt electronics shop
special umbilical docking tube [.025Mcr, 2.6dt]
Crew=5[1 pilot, 1 engineer, 1 gunner/engineer, 2 engineer/maintenance].
5-2dt staterooms.

Plop designs historical series:  The CAM-117 gunship
from Spacecraft 2000-2100AD, by Stewart Cowley, pub 1978, by
Chartwell Books. ISBN 0-89009-211-7

CAM 117 gunship
aka 'the last of the dreadnaughts', 'nuclear kites'
BG-A405AB2-300000-40602-0 Mcr763.09 std. 1900dt
                  1 1 7    Crew=45  TL=8
                  1 1 7
Fuel=190 EP=190 Agility=5 Fuel scoops and Purification Plant
1-100 ton wps bay carrying "One NA 117 Particle Accelerator"
"6 various laser guns": 2-1dt triple beam laser turrets
"various nuclear missile launchers": 7-1dt triple missile racks
Crew=45[11 officers, 34 ratings] 4dt staterooms=45 Cargo=39

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 07:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 06:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
References: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <055501c1dfca$cb684280$1f9e15ac@warrior>

I recall somebody telling me that another problem with these weapons was the
lightness of the projectile ment that wind had a much more drastic effect on
accuracy...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks


> on 4/8/02 2:21 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> >
> > I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).  A
65 gram
> > projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.
>
>
> I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.
>
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 07:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Tue Apr  9 06:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <F2713iCVCd2FvOJyADg0000a126@hotmail.com>

In (Digest) Mail, Matt Bond asked...
<SNIP>
Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to eva while in space to do some 
kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking 
mechanism.  How do I get back in?
</SNIP>

Um, "Open the pod bay doors, Hal"?

Jeff.

"Will the nightmares soon give way to dreaming that she is here with me, 
here in the glow of the night..."

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 08:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 07:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here namethin gs
Message-ID: <200204091452.DRR04317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
>for first name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
>town where you were born. 
>
John Kwon, Chapel Hill

Johon Swcha
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 09:26:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue Apr  9 08:26:07 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here
 namethin gs
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B74@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
> Sent: 09 April 2002 15:53
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn
> how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here namethin gs
> 
> 
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
> >for first name
> > 
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
> >town where you were born. 
> >
> John Kwon, Chapel Hill
> 
> Johon Swcha

I think you will find it is Johkw Schwa...


Matt
(a.k.a. Matbo Pelon)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 10:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr  9 09:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <F73cFZ4RgPRCjOuF1Qp000016f2@hotmail.com>

From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>

     "And I apologize for sounding like a jerk.  I sometimes forget how 
stuff will appear when someone else reads it."

Mr. West,

     Why there's nothing to apologize for, sir!  Your post was perfectly 
alright, I didn't feel it to be anything but correct in both form and tone.
     I was upset with myself over ladling out bad information as if it were 
gospel.  I should have known better and attached an "IIRC" to the statement.

     "That is a pretty reasonable idea.  I figure they would be jumping in 
with a fleet, not just a squadron.  They probably have a couple of "probe" 
ships and multiple ships that can deliver the meson trigger."

     Yes, deployed within a fleet.  That's why the AM 8 talk of the Special 
Branch doesn't sit quite well with me.  It sort of implies that the Darrians 
can zip in with a few vessels and get the job done.
     Leaving probe delivery aside for the moment, look at the meson beam 
requirements.  If you're going to trigger the tungsten plume AND get away, 
you must do it from outside the star's 100D limit.  For a star the size of 
Sol, that's nearly 1 AU.  What sort of beam projector is going to be 
required for that kind of range?  Never mind the accuracy we'll need!
     Spinal mounts don't have that kind of range, at least I assume they 
don't.  Meson gun range is determined by the speed of the particles, you 
whip them up to some insanely relativistic speed in order to delay their 
decay.  When their slowed clocks finally tick down, they go "boom", 
hopefully near the point in space where you want them to do so.
     In the case of the Star Trigger, we'll be attempting to time that decay 
to a point ~1 AU away from our vessels.  The TL 16 Darrians were able to do 
it from Darrian and a GG moon, but the vessels carrying this equipment wil 
be very, very, VERY specialized.  I don't think you'll be able to flip a 
switch and modify a meson gun spinal mount to do the job.

     "I seriously doubt the Darrians would destroy their own worlds to 
prevent capture.  The only reason I can think of for them to intentionally 
use the Star Trigger in one of their own systems is if they believed they 
could nail a major fleet, then come back in to fix the system."

     "They would, however, without hesitation do a deep penetration to wipe 
out an enemy world.  Or several."

     I see the problem with using the Trigger against the Zhos (or 
Imperials) as one of strategic depth.  How many Triggers would take to 
dissuade a very large opponent from continuing his assault on you?  How 
thick a "belt" of Trigger flare systems would it take to stop an offensive?  
Or a war?  Let's take a Darrian-Imperial war for example, would the Darrians 
have to Trigger selected stars as far back as Corridor to keep the Imerium 
at bay?
     Of course, a single Trigger can effect more than one world.  The 
"orignal" deployment did effect worlds as far away from Darrain as Entrope 
and Winston, but at a propogation of <light speed.  It took years for 
results to travel beyond the intial system, not that the warning helped any.
     Deploying many Trigger's at once could present your attacker with an 
unimaginable catastrophe in several systems, and a multi-parsec belt of 
incrediable EM damge that will take decades to develop, but would that cause 
him to cease his assaults or would he be more likely to visit genocide upon 
you and yours?

     "I imagine the Darrians would be pragmatic enough to have a mass 
"suicide" to keep the secret.  I figure some of those in the "suicide" 
really did commit real suicide after making sure the "suicides" took place."

     Omigosh!  Someone who can think nearly as "evilly" as me!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 10:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 09:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B73@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409115948.027e20f0@pop.wizard.net>

Matt Bond:
>Ok, how long does this Warrant last? Is it similar to the MOT in the UK
>for cars? i.e. an annual check of the vehicles condition and compliance
>with regulations?
>
>If so, most crews will disable the hindering security aspects (if these
>are even covered by the warranting procedure) until such time as they
>are approaching annual maintenance and warranting, re-enable them just
>befor inspection, then promptly disable them again after certification.

I think there will be annual inspections at the time of annual maintenance, 
and also inspections at every port that is Class A or B and probably C.

Not every safety feature will be vigorously disabled by crews.  The locks 
between engineering and passenger spaces are quite convenient.  They keep 
passengers from turning up in annoying places and bothering you.  And all 
the crewman has to do is keep their keycard in their pocket and key in four 
numbers on the crypto pad to pass through the lock.  The boat pilot will 
similarly prefer locks that keep wandering crew or passengers from visiting 
"his" boat just out of curiosity and desire for more elbow room.  In less 
normal situations, access to the ship's boats will become universal (for 
abandon ship situations) or more difficult (for hijacking situations).  The 
chief features of the antihijacking security will be to prevent 
unauthorized personnel from gaining access to engineering and other 
crew-only spaces like the bridge, and to prevent unauthorized personnel 
from using control stations.

Electronic log files will be kept on every passage through a hatchway or 
use of a control station.  When visiting better ports, copies of those log 
files will be beamed to whoever keeps such records.  If locks are disabled, 
no event will be logged each time the hatch or control station is used, and 
it will be pretty obvious as soon as someone inspects the logs.

Also, if locks or other measures are disabled, then the insurance 
investigator will be doing her best to elicit confessions or accusations 
from each individual member of the crew.  The crewman who disables a lock, 
and the ship's officer who lets it remain disabled will have to think twice 
about whether they really want personal legal responsibility for the loss 
of the ship that's being investigated.  Their employment contracts have 
explicit language designed to ensure that a crewman or officer who is 
culpable in a loss is subject to heavy, heavy penalties.

The risk just won't be worth taking, especially since the chief benefit of 
disabling locks is not having to punch in four numbers each time the 
individual passes through a hatchway between where they spend most of their 
work day and where they rarely venture anyway.  All it takes is one or two 
honest crewmen to decide to turn them in and they are in big, big trouble.

The level of personal inconvenience to crew and officers shouldn't be 
overrated.  Nor should the level of security most people are willing to put 
up with.  I don't know about other major U.S. cities, but here in the 
Washington area most places of employment make people go past security to 
enter and exit their building, there are roving security guards, all 
packages are subject to inspection, people have to physically log in and 
out of the building outside of normal work hours, and there are frequently 
a few doors within the company's area that are also secure (usually they 
admit only personnel whose magnetically coded employee ID badge is on the 
authorized list in a central computer).  The main everyday features of 
starship security will not be any more annoying than that.  Getting caught 
violating ship's security will be dramatically more undesirable than 
violating office security normally is.


>And in any case, a car can be insured against theft even if it doesn't
>have steering locks, a car alarm and an immobiliser fitted, so why can't
>a starship? Yes, your premium will be a tad higher, but unless theft of
>starships is commonplace stringent security won't be a *requirement* of
>insurance.

You mean unless theft of starships is expensive to the insurance 
company.  Since the insurer tends to be heavily, heavily invested at all 
times in order to maximize profits, having to pay out a mere Cr40,000,000 
will be a major inconvenience and probably affect that quarter's bottom 
line.  Rate schedules will reflect this.

Theft insurance riders for car insurance are usually relatively low to 
begin with, so the difference between $8/month and $14/month may not 
motivate many people to take the extra measures you mention.  Which 
measures are over and above the door locks and steering lock that are 
operated by your car keys.  But rates go up significantly or even 
dramatically when you have a very expensive car, a car model that is very 
popular among thieves, or are within an easy drive of the Mexican border 
(for those of us in the States).  Even if the theft insurance is a very 
small percentage of the ship's value, it will be a very large amount of 
ship's expense each month.  And even more troublesome in Imperial border 
regions near places like the Vargr Extents or systems not belonging to any 
organized empire.

A fundamental principle of property insurance is to reimburse the insured 
100% of the value of their loss.  If the insured has nothing to lose then 
loss claims become incredibly frequent.  If the insured has to carry a 
signicant portion of the loss of a spaceship, you can bet that ships' 
owners will go to some trouble to make sure it never happens to them.

(Thus, a good bounty hunter scenario for recovering stolen ships would be a 
ship's owner who has incurred a loss and already been reimbursed the 90% of 
fair market value that's as much as she'll ever get hires bounty hunters to 
recover the ship.  Payment will be to split all profits from selling the 
recovered ship, after first making up the 10% that wasn't insured and then 
covering all expenses incurred.  If the ship can still be sold for its 
original fair market value, that's a huge profit.)


>There is a world of difference between a safe ship and a secure one, and
>all STC will be concerned with is safety.

Not sure who STC is.  Starport Authorities and local governments will be 
concerned that terrorists or wackos don't hijack a ship and crash it into 
something (the high port, the duke's residence, the financial district of 
the most important city) either intentionally or through ineptness.  That's 
part of safety.  Another part of safety is ensuring the ship is kept in 
good operating order and run in a responsible manner, and security logs 
will be helpful in determining that (are watches being stood?  are 
equipment inspections being kept up with?  do unauthorized personnel get 
access to equipment or controls?).  Lenders and insurers will be concerned 
to prevent ship loss from the investment point of view.  Sector and 
subsector dukes may have additional concerns, which might be felt through 
increased Starport Authority regulations, or through influencing local 
governments to implement other regulations.

I imagine that ship owners may put a clause in crew employment contracts 
that actually penalizes crewmen X months of salary if the ship is 
stolen.  All the crew and officers, not just whoever is found 
culpable.  The ship owners are motivated to prevent theft because of 
financial incentive.  They'll seek to put crew and officers in the same 
position.

(Hmm, one racket would be owner and crew cooperating to make the ship seem 
to be stolen, get their 80% or 90% from the insurance company, then the 
crew goes off as bounty hunters and "recovers" the ship from the "thieves", 
they sell the ship for nearly it's fair market value, and they've just made 
a profit of circa 80% of the value of a ship.  This will be an easy racket 
unless law enforcement and insurers are doing thorough jobs at every step 
of the way.  And even then it will still occasionally happen.)

I'm going to file this email separately for its adventure seeds and routine 
starship operations information.  Thank you for getting me to write it.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 11:19:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 10:19:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F210WagewMS59IvqvIy000169c3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409130304.027d16f0@pop.wizard.net>

Sam D on comparative accuracies between different military rifles:
>But as to your basic point that an M1 gets better accuracy than an M16A1, 
>as far as issue weapons I would not be too sure.  The M16's action 
>probably gives better accuracy.  Also, the M1's wood stock is not so great 
>when you do a lot of firing.  The M16 has much less recoil.  On the other 
>hand, the M16 is lousy if you are using a sling (because the sling 
>connects to the front sight which is connected directly to the barrel) and 
>it has a very thin barrel.  I bet the M16A2, with the heavy barrel, does 
>better than the Garand though.

I'd be very surprised if the M-16 shoots better on the 800-yard or -meter 
line (800 is not part of normal rifle qual, just competitions).  Even the 
M-16A2, with slightly heavier barrel, much better twist to the rifling for 
long-range accuracy, and slightly different load should be poorer than the 
M-14.  Oh, and let's not forget the A2's butt being three-eighths of an 
inch longer than the A1.  Skilled shooters can fire the 14 from the 1,000 
and that's something that's pretty ridiculous with the 16.  Not having 
fired the M-14, I can't speak to things like the furniture or the sight 
arrangement.  I imagine differences between the sight designs can make a 
pretty big difference to performance on the range.

I understand that current M-16s in U.S. service have these (IMHO 
ridiculous) three-round-burst limiters.  Which makes the trigger action a 
little bit different between first, second, and third shots of each 
burst.  The range coaches who I talked to about it said they were advising 
people to hand load each round during slow fire.  In between each round 
they would dry fire the weapon twice.  That way, you were always at the 
same point in the three-round sequence when you actually fired a 
round.  The one time I qualified with the A2 instead of A1, I forgot about 
that little routine.  The A2 still improved my score by about 5 points.  I 
also did a full course of fire not for qualification with the A2 and saw my 
score jump up about the same.  Although, come to think of it, I was less 
than satisfied with my groups from the 500-yard line.  Doh.  Only took 
fifteen years to figure that one out.  :->

ObTrav.  Something the referee in my current PBEM game does do.  Until a 
character has spent time on a range "sighting in" aka "zeroing" a new 
weapon, she should get accuracy penalties when using it, although the 
penalty should be neglible at short range.  A skilled character who takes 
several hours to sight in may be eligible for an accuracy bonus.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 11:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 10:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F84ekOtJI52I0jYn6hx00003845@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409132133.027d0ec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 07:08 AM 4/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>laning writes:
>
>>Anyway, I was told by the people who
>>randomly checked the ammo that reached the front-line troops that we were
>>typically getting 2100 fps, and it wasn't very unusual to get under 1800
>>fps.
>
>Were you getting a lot of failures to feed?  I am just wondering if such 
>weak ammo could get the action to cycle reliably.

Nope.  Well, define 'a lot'.  I've had them occur on the rifle range.  Less 
than say five(?) times.  It was a lot of years ago now to be trying to 
remember this.


>>How is this data verified or acquired, please?  I'm just curious to get
>>another data point, not being accusatory or argumentative.  :->
>
>This is from my rifle with a chronograph, and recent surplus ammo 
>(1999-2001 production for LC; I think the WCC was older, like 1991).
>
>>Muzzle velocity for government ammo for the A1 was just over 2700 fps.
>
>While there may have been some bad ammo, I do not think the spec for the 
>55 grain ammo (M193) has changed since the round was first 
>standardized.  It has always required a muzzle velocity of 3250 fps, 
>measured 15' from the muzzle (from TM 43-0001-27).  The new 62 grain round 
>(M1855) is supposed to go 3025 fps, measured 78 feet from the muzzle.

That 2700 figure was what our manuals from boot camp taught us and was a 
very frequent question during inspections in boot camp and afterwards.  I 
want to 2,710 but I still can't remember the precise figure.  And yeah, my 
1980 edition of 'Cartridges of the World' thinks M193 ammo had a 3,250 
muzzle velocity also.  Interesting that the Marine Corps _officially_ 
taught us it was a much lower number.  One explanation is that Marine Corps 
was continuing to be forced to accept ammo lots that it considered 
substandard at 2,710 while the contractor continued to insist he was 
delivering 3,250 and the dispute was dragging on during my tenure in the Corps.

I think when the manufacturer sells 'surplus' ammo they know precisely 
whether a shipment will be delivered to commercial sellers or to the 
government.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.


>Interestingly, most modern militaries are adopting 5.56 rifles and 
>dropping the bigger calibers.  This is even true of weapons like the FAL 
>which could, with some work, be made as flexible as far as mounting optics 
>and accessories as the M16A4 or M4.
>
>It makes me wonder a little if the Army decided that infantry are not that 
>effecive anyway, so it might as well give the boys something that shoots 
>lightweight ammo.  On the other hand, maybe they think 5.56 is enough, 
>because if someone has a hole in them, even a .22 hole, they will be out 
>of action.  Whichever is the case, most other armies seem to be buying 
>into it too.

Yes, both of your suggestions make a lot of sense in light of what the 
popular wisdom is at the government think tanks that largely influence 
these decisions.  "Aimed fire is no more effective than unaimed fire in 
battlefield situations."  and "An army loses more than three soldiers from 
action each time someone is wounded, in order to medevac and care for that 
wounded soldier."

In fact, with that last popular nugget of wisdom, one can easily imagine 
the paper pushers deciding it's _better_ to have a rifle that results in 
more wounds than kills, and stopping power isn't even part of the 
decision.  It's a Dilbert world.

My ObTrav here is some planetary militaries opting for patently 
underpowered weapons on the theory that they should always be trying to 
inflict a wound and never a kill.  Take it near a ridiculous 
extreme.  Perhaps the player characters are in a mercenary unit that goes 
up against them, and after getting some battle experience against them, can 
only muse wonderingly and pity the poor bastards they're fighting 
against.  Or the player characters are in a city that is under attack by 
irregular forces much like the Boers from 1902 (people grew up with 
shooting and take weapon deadliness very seriously).  They feel secure 
enough, since the planetary government forces defending the city vastly 
outnumber the irregular and have much more sophisticated equipment 
besides.  Things grow tense as the irregulars' siege of the city gets 
tighter and tighter and the fighting starts coming in earshot of their 
hotel.  No vehicles, aircraft, or spacecraft are entering or leaving the 
city.  Rumors of war crimes being committed by ever more angry irregulars 
are growing.  (They're angry because their friends and family often they 
themselves are getting wounded.  They're _not_ spending three guys to take 
care of one wounded guy, because they're irregulars and don't have that 
kind of luxury.)

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 11:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Apr  9 10:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <200204091244.AA102170826@caddocourt.com>

>     Why there's nothing to apologize for, sir!  Your post was perfectly 
>alright, I didn't feel it to be anything but correct in both form and tone.

Oh good!  Thank you for clearing that up.

[ big snip ]
>     "They would, however, without hesitation do a deep penetration to wipe 
>out an enemy world.  Or several."
>
>     I see the problem with using the Trigger against the Zhos (or 
>Imperials) as one of strategic depth.  How many Triggers would take to 
>dissuade a very large opponent from continuing his assault on you?
> ... , but would that cause 
>him to cease his assaults or would he be more likely to visit genocide upon 
>you and yours?

I don't think the Darrians would be using the Star Trigger against the
Zhodani or the Imperium unless they already knew they were dead.  (Or
at least believed they were.)  As you mentioned before, there is nothing
it can do in its operation that will let the Darrians win such a war.

The whole point with the Zhodani (and, by extension, the Imperium) is
that its presence will prevent the war from ever starting in the first
place.  If you know that conquering the Darrians will be that expensive
(and the ramifications will continue to happen for years to come), you
have to really want the Darrians dead.  In other words, it escalates
the price of victory the Zhodani or Imperium would have to pay to
conquer the Darrians.  It can never win the war once it has started.

Of course, the other "fun" use of the Star Trigger is to intimidate
small (single system) governments like Nonym and (before they were an
Imperial client state) Garoo.

[ this is out of context, but ...]
>...  It took years for 
>results to travel beyond the intial system, not that the warning helped any.

The problem for the Darrians with the Maghiz was that there was only a
single shipyard and a single industrial base for the entire Confederation:
Darrian.  Once it was destroyed, the colonies had no way to get new ships
or technological goods.  They were all stuck.

The Imperial or Zhodani worlds would not be so hard hit since there would
always be other worlds to get stuff from.  They would be able to recover
in a much more quickly.

>     "I imagine the Darrians would be pragmatic enough to have a mass 
>"suicide" to keep the secret.  I figure some of those in the "suicide" 
>really did commit real suicide after making sure the "suicides" took place."
>
>     Omigosh!  Someone who can think nearly as "evilly" as me!

While I do probably fit that description, in this case I would call this
"evil", so much as purely pragmatic.

Another way to look at it is that the scientists literal bet their lives 
that they could create the Star Trigger.  They lost the bet and paid the
price, but at least had a measure of success.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 12:58 AM 4/9/02 -0700, you wrote:

>A gaming system where everybody contributes rules like
>linux? That's a great idea. Wish I could program.
>People are still gonna argue rules and realism though.

The latest edition of D&D made some hype about going to this back when it 
was announced and the public buzz about Linux was at its peak.  I don't 
really follow D&D and don't know where that stands now.

That suggestion does not have to have anything to do with programming the 
rules for computers.  Just writing game rules.  There needs to be a 
centralized repository for distributing the rules.  Web site, news group, 
mailing list.  The contributors to that forum need to early on establish 
some protocols that, if followed, keep contributors writing rule sections 
that are compatibility with the other rule sections.

For example, weapon design rules have to produce results within parameters 
that can be used any combat rules which in turn have to produce results 
that can be used with any rules describing character attributes, in terms 
of taking wounds and in terms of determining hits and damage.

There are some problems that make such a project very different from 
open-source programming of a Unix variant.

With programming, the contributions have to at least compile, and not crash 
when launched.  This filters out a lot underqualified contributors right 
there.  No such built-in logic checks preventing junk contributions of game 
rules.

There are a _lot_ more people who think they can design a game than there 
are people who think they can write a computer program.  Professional game 
designers are aware of this phenomenon and are also aware that a huge 
number of self proclaimed game designers don't have the least concept of 
some important fundamentals.

These first two things suggest that a huge percentage of junk 
contributions.  Much more so than with Linux.

Having a much larger population of people who think they can write rules 
could lead to vast numbers of rule contributions.  The sheer number can be 
a problem.  OTOH, if only a small percentage of contributions are good then 
it's a good thing there are so many contributions.  :->

There is less motivation for people to write rule contributions.  A 
successful Linux contribution is more likely to be personally gratifying, 
and is an extremely helpful thing to have on your resume and a useful 
professional growth experience in a well-paid profession.  A game rules 
contribution isn't very helpful to most persons' careers, and is arguably 
less gratifying in terms of fame or the satisfaction of being published.

The market for (war and roleplaying) games is orders of magnitude smaller 
than the market for computer software.

Establishing even the basic intent of the protocols is a puzzling 
task.  Linux had the advantage of imitating an established and mature 
operating system at its start.  Is the open source roleplaying game going 
to be highly cinematic and intended to keep player characters alive but 
slaughter....never mind.  I guess if the protocol cleverly defines how 
modules plug into each other, then you can let players mix and match 
modules themselves.

Bug reporting of Linux contributions can be automated and reports sent via 
the Internet easily.  Bug reporting of game designs is much more problematical.

That's what comes to mind.

It's got me to thinking about how to organize it though.  If I had more 
energy for the project, I'd go advertise in various Internet locations, 
magazines, game shops, and game conventions, set up the Web site and 
mailing list, etc.  Oh yeah, and if I had the money for those thing.  If 
enough people start participating, it might be a worthwhile experiment.

Not sure if I remember the original Linus Thorvald's post accurately enough 
to make this paraphrase work.  "Remember the good old days when real men 
wrote their own game rules?..."

One last thing.  I have some hesitation about whether it's a good idea to 
even trying to make open source game design work.  If it works, it isn't 
like stealing market share from Bill Gates.  It's making it impossible for 
guys like Loren Wiseman to earn a living in the industry.  We won't have 
any full time RPG designers anymore.  Which probably means a lot of 
important and good contributions to RPGs will never take place.  As a 
concept, open source game design seems like a desirable thing for gaming if 
it can be made to work.  The devil is in the details.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here
 name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <20020408234503.A15920@4dv.net>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
 <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409141814.027d2810@pop.wizard.net>

> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> > were born.

Lanpo Lannap.  I do not want to be called Lanpo.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Penguin Sighting
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409142253.027d5410@pop3.isicns.com>

'Shackleton' is being run in two parts on A&E repeatedly from this past 
weekend through April 19th.  Originally from Channel 4 in the U.K.

Numerous penguin sightings and references!

Including the classic when the photographer and Shackleton (played by 
Brannagh), are sorting through all their photographic negatives, made of glass.

Shackleton, in tired complaint:  "_Not_ another penguin."  Smash.

It even opens with a genuine, 100% pure, certified penguin joke, albeit in 
German and with no subtitles.  Most of us will have to pay close attention 
to eke out enough meaning to understand it.

Actual ObTravs should be abundantly obvious while viewing the show.  Chock 
full of adventure seeds and NPCs.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:17:35PM -0400
References: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:17:35PM -0400, laning wrote:
>
> I have some hesitation about whether it's a good idea to even trying
> to make open source game design work.  If it works, it isn't like
> stealing market share from Bill Gates.  It's making it impossible
> for guys like Loren Wiseman to earn a living in the industry.  We
> won't have any full time RPG designers anymore.  Which probably
> means a lot of important and good contributions to RPGs will never
> take place.

Open source and free software aren't about winning market share from
Bill Gates--they're about doing the right thing (or rather, doing a
more right thing).  I don't think that anyone will argue that it's
more moral to give away than the sell; in fact, I can think of few
schools of thought other than Objectivism which would so argue.  It's
not wrong to charge for one's labour (how else could one eat?)--but it
is better to give it away.

No-one should ever be forced to give away his labour--that would be
slavery.  But OTOH it must be recognised that if _I_ give mine away,
then _you_ will have a hard time selling yours.  But that is, to be
quite honest, your problem.


And a _lot_ of important and free contributions to RPGs took place
back in the old net days--ever read the Net.Books
<http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/byzantium/55/index2.htm#bluetroll>?
The vast majority were written by players for players.

In the software world, we've moved from proprietary everything, to
open standards for proprietary components on top of proprietary
platforms (POSIX when it first came about) to open standards for open
components on top of proprietary platforms (the GNU tools on top of
POSIX) to open standards for open components on top of open platforms
(Linux and *BSD).


Games are already fairly open.  Despite certain companies' wishful
thinking, a game is already an open standard, in that anyone can
create materials compatible with it.  That's a lot of what we're doing
here on the TML, isn't it?  And yet no-one claims that we are stealing
from Messrs. Miller or Wiseman, or that they are unable to make a
living.

Steffan O'Sullivan seems to have done well with FUDGE, a system which
is truly free (in the sense of freedom), yet which is also sold.
There's a lot of value added to a book vs. a computer file--much more
than that added to software by boxing it up vs. putting it online.

Even SJ Games have a free summary of the most basic of GURPS rules
available.  I imagine that sales of GURPS Basic Set are rather dwarfed
by sales of the myriads of supplements they put out.  And how many of
us would really stop buying RPGs just because they might be available
online?

Heck, I just spent more than $200 for HackMaster's Player's Guide,
DM's Guide and Vols. 1-VII of the Hacklopaedia, despite the fact that
I'll never play it in my life.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
While I was at University in Lancaster, the International Committee of
the Red Cross was having a campaign to stop other organisations using
the name 'red cross' and served a 'cease and desist' notice on the Red
Cross Inn in Lancaster.  The innkeeper turned round and pointed out that
the Red Cross Inn (founded, like most other pubs of the same name, by a
returning crusader) had been trading under that name for more than seven
hundred and fifty years, and politely asked how long they'd been using
it.  The ICRC retired hurt.                             --Simon Brooke

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:53:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:53:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3623@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Just read MJ Dougherty's short story at:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/Fiction/Dougherty/secrets.html

I can just SEE this as a short film :)  Could be done with a very moderate
budget, especially if Harry got changed to a human character instead of
Vargr.  Granted, that's half the fun of the piece, but it'd be a lot easier
& cheaper to do if he were human.

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Geoff @ MotionBlur)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3623@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOIEELCHAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>

Animate it =)

Geoff McDonald
President
MotionBlur Animation Ltd.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of DeGraff, Jesse
> Sent: April 9, 2002 11:52 AM
> To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
> Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
>
>
> Just read MJ Dougherty's short story at:
> http://www.travellerrpg.com/Fiction/Dougherty/secrets.html
>
> I can just SEE this as a short film :)  Could be done with a very moderate
> budget, especially if Harry got changed to a human character instead of
> Vargr.  Granted, that's half the fun of the piece, but it'd be a
> lot easier
> & cheaper to do if he were human.
>
> Jesse
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3624@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

You're the professional animator, I just do stills ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff @ MotionBlur [mailto:mcdonald@motionblur.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:55 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Oh dear....


Animate it =)

Geoff McDonald
President
MotionBlur Animation Ltd.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 09, 2002 03:51:13 PM
Message-ID: <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
> > an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
> > move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
> > suppression, they move toward each other much faster
> > than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
> > I wrong?
> 
> If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
> on each ion, then it is true.
> 
> If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
> to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
> factor of 10.

Under the premise of the inertial suppression idea, inertia
is defined as the electromagnetic drag caused by mass accellerating
through the zero point field (essentially due to subatomic interactions
with virtual photons). So, if this were the case, it might hold true
that the EM force would be reduced by inertial suppression, at least if
one assumes that EM forces are transferred via virtual photons, sort of
like the way waves on the ocean are transferred through the water
molecules making up the waves (you physicists on the list can probably
laugh at this statement... I'm really showing my ignorance here). Anyway,
off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to make this
work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the square-root of the
inertial suppression factor. If we make that handwave, which is
certainly a god-being-nice type to rule to make, then I'd imagine
that we've got gravity & EM both covered. However, if anyone can
provide a counterexample, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Also, there's still the weak and strong forces to think about. Since
weak is purportedly linked to EM, one would expect some sort of similar
square-root drop off. As for the strong force, I have no idea. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F107T456UnHAaaz7EjQ000157ce@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>I'd be very surprised if the M-16 shoots better on the 800-yard or -meter
>line (800 is not part of normal rifle qual, just competitions).>Even the
>M-16A2, with slightly heavier barrel, much better twist to the rifling for
>long-range accuracy, and slightly different load should be poorer than the
>M-14.

As the distance gets longer, wind has its effect on the little 5.56 much 
more than the 7.62.  But the usual distances in match competitions is 200, 
300 and 600 yards, at which distances the M16 is supreme.  It is possible to 
get superior accuracy at even longer ranges with the M16, but they have to 
use very heavy bullets (80 grains+) that will not fit in the M16 mags.  As 
you talked about in your post, the M16 becomes a single shot.  With this 
proviso, the M16 is beating the M14 at all ranges now in competitions.  I 
think they are even getting good results at 1,000 yards, but these are 
obviously not issue weapons.

Anyway, when we are talking 1,000 yards we are really talking about ranges 
for snipers, not infantry.

>Skilled shooters can fire the 14 from the 1,000
>and that's something that's pretty ridiculous with the 16.

Certainly ridiculous for me.  An M14 would have to be pretty tweaked to 
consistantly make shots like that, and you would need optics.  It is a very 
poor platform for optics and the M14 needs constant maintanence to keep 
excellent accuracy.  The M16, on the other hand, once accurized needs little 
upkeep and it is a great platform for optics.  But you are certainly right 
that it is not going to bowling them over at 1,000 yards.

>I understand that current M-16s in U.S. service have these (IMHO
>ridiculous) three-round-burst limiters.  Which makes the trigger action a
>little bit different between first, second, and third shots of each
>burst.

The trigger pull is the same for every shot in semi-auto.  These "match" 
rifles I am talking about will usually have a special double stage trigger 
installed.  Otherwise, the standard M16 trigger, like most military 
triggers, is really too heavy for serious accuracy.

I always thought it was interesting in Striker that they have a 7mm assault 
rifle (which seems to be a FAL/G3/M14 type weapon), a 5mm assault rifle 
(M16), and then skip entirely the most popular assault rifle of all time 
(AK-47).  What are all of the guerillas supposed to be armed with?

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl quotes me and replies:
>On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:17:35PM -0400, laning wrote:
> >
> > I have some hesitation about whether it's a good idea to even trying
> > to make open source game design work.  If it works, it isn't like
> > stealing market share from Bill Gates.  It's making it impossible
> > for guys like Loren Wiseman to earn a living in the industry.  We
> > won't have any full time RPG designers anymore.  Which probably
> > means a lot of important and good contributions to RPGs will never
> > take place.
>
>Open source and free software aren't about winning market share from
>Bill Gates--they're about doing the right thing (or rather, doing a
>more right thing).  I don't think that anyone will argue that it's
>more moral to give away than the sell; in fact, I can think of few
>schools of thought other than Objectivism which would so argue.  It's
>not wrong to charge for one's labour (how else could one eat?)--but it
>is better to give it away.
>
>No-one should ever be forced to give away his labour--that would be
>slavery.  But OTOH it must be recognised that if _I_ give mine away,
>then _you_ will have a hard time selling yours.  But that is, to be
>quite honest, your problem.

I had no wish to get into philosophical theory.  I do wish to point out who 
is affected by an effort that results in taking market share from 
professional game designers.  Regardless of their original intent.  It will 
be the folks like Loren who live on a shoestring instead of folks like Bill 
Gates who already has more money than he has a purpose for.  I believe that 
a lot of people new to the situation rather expect that gaming companies 
are big faceless corporations with deep pockets, when really they are just 
the opposite.

I do not adopt that attitude of "Tough luck, Mac" if I do something for my 
own amusement (gaming as a hobby) that puts good and decent people of 
personal acquaintance (Loren) out on the street.  I don't know if your "But 
that is...your problem" remark was intended to sound quite as callous as it 
came across to me in print, but that's just me, and as you say that's my 
problem.  I'm not losing any sleep over it.  My issue is this.  If people 
are going to make a choice with profound consequences, then they should be 
aware of what those consequences are.  A successful effort to publish 
open-source game designs will kill an industry that is fairly marginal by 
replacing it with people who do it for a hobby.  I'd wager a lot of 
would-be participants in open-source gaming are not aware of that 
consequence prior to someone pointing it out.



>And a _lot_ of important and free contributions to RPGs took place
>back in the old net days--ever read the Net.Books
><http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/byzantium/55/index2.htm#bluetroll>?
>The vast majority were written by players for players.

I was not aware of that, and will look at the link later today, thanks.



>Games are already fairly open.  Despite certain companies' wishful
>thinking, a game is already an open standard, in that anyone can
>create materials compatible with it.  That's a lot of what we're doing
>here on the TML, isn't it?  And yet no-one claims that we are stealing
>from Messrs. Miller or Wiseman, or that they are unable to make a
>living.

Very good point.  To be fair, there are times we've had pretty heated IP 
debates about whether something is being stolen from them.  And the harm it 
does to their ability to make a living usually gets mentioned in those 
debates.  And the people who were breaking the law haven't always ceased 
nor desisted.


>Steffan O'Sullivan seems to have done well with FUDGE, a system which
>is truly free (in the sense of freedom), yet which is also sold.
>There's a lot of value added to a book vs. a computer file--much more
>than that added to software by boxing it up vs. putting it online.

Good point about added value.  I have no idea whether Steffan O'Sullivan is 
making a living at it or not.  I don't hear him complaining, but that 
doesn't mean a thing, since where I would go to notice such a complaint.

>Even SJ Games have a free summary of the most basic of GURPS rules
>available.  I imagine that sales of GURPS Basic Set are rather dwarfed
>by sales of the myriads of supplements they put out.  And how many of
>us would really stop buying RPGs just because they might be available
>online?
They didn't give it away until after they'd established the market for 
GURPS and had said myriads of supplements.

I can envision a real world way of developing RPG open source designs that 
will compete directly with _all_ RPG publications, and would evolve over 
time to be superior to them in most instances.  Online availability and 
printing and binding in your home is still a novelty and is far from 
reaching full 'market penetration'.  How many of us would actually pay for 
a $20 rule book that we can print and bind for less than a tenth of 
that?  A few yes, but the majority would take the cheaper option.

....leading to electronic publishing discussions but I don't know if that's 
relevant to this discussion or not.


>Heck, I just spent more than $200 for HackMaster's Player's Guide,
>DM's Guide and Vols. 1-VII of the Hacklopaedia, despite the fact that
>I'll never play it in my life.
You display a trait common in our hobby, but very few of us spend like 
that.  I suspect you have far more disposable income than most gamers.  And 
I don't suppose those volumes were available online.

In summary, you raise excellent points that do make a difference.  But if 
your intent is prove open-source RPG design is a stillborn idea, I don't 
think you've chosen compelling arguments.  If your intent was to explode my 
own points as invalid, you haven't convinced me that they are.

I think the real difficulties of moving the idea forward is lack of 
concentrated energy among people who have the right skills.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:48:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:48:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F51yTB0lrvpLA0sOVtS000096e4@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>I think when the manufacturer sells 'surplus' ammo they know precisely
>whether a shipment will be delivered to commercial sellers or to the
>government.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The WCC I have, which is produced by Olin, was for a foreign government 
contract that never made it out of the country for some reason.  It came 
linked, with tracers.  :)

Lake City is a government owned facility that is operated by a contractor 
(currently Federal).  I don't think they are supposed to be making private 
sales of the stuff.  From what I hear, the diversion to commercial suppliers 
is being stopped by the government.  Much of it is in Federal packaging, but 
some of the older stuff is packaged in 30 round boxes with stripper clips, 
ready to be issued to the troops.

Really, you guys are shocking me with all of this talk of low velocity 5.56 
ammo.  I have never heard anybody mention this before, and I have been 
around and been interested in the weapon for a while now.  If you have or 
know of any sources for this info, I would sure like to see it.  Off list if 
you prefer.  Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409115948.027e20f0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B73@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409151639.02480008@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:01 PM 4/9/2002, laning wrote:
>[A ship owner who has] incurred a loss and been reimbursed the 90% of fair 
>market value [...] hires bounty hunters to recover the ship.  Payment will 
>be to split all profits from selling the recovered ship, after first 
>making up the 10% that wasn't insured and then covering all expenses incurred.

No; the insurance company will guard against scams of this nature by 
insisting that, if the ship is recovered after the claim is paid, it 
belongs to the insurance company and not the insured.  In this case, the 
insurance company will generally sell the ship, and if (after deducting the 
expenses related to recovering and selling it) the insurance company 
recovers more than the 90% of the fair market value that they paid for the 
claim, the extra monies are split in some way (that will vary from policy 
to policy) between the insurance company, the people who recovered the 
ship, and the original owners.

Bounty hunters can work for or with insurance companies, or for the 
owner.  If the ship can be recovered quickly, inexpensively, and with 
little damage, the  owner can recover the ship without having to make a 
claim - the only cost is the cost of the recovery fee (maybe into the 
hundreds of thousands of credits).  But, in general, the ship will not be 
so easily recovered (or once recovered, will not be in the condition it was 
when it was stolen).

So, ship owners will generally want to file a claim, and let the insurance 
company worry about recovering the ship.  Recovering and selling the ship - 
even at a fraction of it's full value represents a huge reduction in the 
insurance company's loss.  Thus, they will tend to employ bounty hunters 
and skip tracers to recover ships, and some type of fee-splitting 
arrangement that provides an incentive for the bounty hunters to recover 
the ship with as much of it's original value as possible.  This would 
probably involve a salary, retainer, or base fee for any recovery (again, 
maybe ranging into the hundreds of thousands of credits), plus a bonus if 
the ship's resale value exceeds the company's cost for the claim and recovery.

This does leave open one possible scam - the owner or crew could "steal" 
their own ship, abandon it, file an insurance claim and take their 
90%.  Once the ship is recovered, if they can re-purchase it at auction for 
less than 90% of original market value, the original owners will now own 
the ship free and clear, plus some amount of profit.  On the other hand, 
the ship may now be in need of expensive re-certification and other work to 
make it space worthy.  Not to mention the cost of increased insurance 
premiums ... and the amount of scrutiny that they will get from insurance 
and law enforcement.

>One racket would be owner and crew cooperating to make the ship seem to be 
>stolen, get their 80% or 90% from the insurance company, then the crew 
>goes off as bounty hunters and "recovers" the ship from the "thieves", 
>they sell the ship for nearly it's fair market value, and they've just 
>made a profit of circa 80% of the value of a ship.

Nope - first off, the insurance company will investigate the heck out of 
this scenario.  In the second case, the proceeds from the sale of the ship 
will go to the insurance company, and only a tiny fraction will be paid to 
the "bounty hunters".  In general, the amount they'd see from this scam 
(90% insurance payment plus 0%-2% recovery bonus) will be less than if 
they'd sold the ship outright at fair market value.

In theory, this scenario can be used to scam the bank of a ship which is 
subject to a mortgage.  The ship is "stolen" by it's own crew, the 
insurance pays the bank note off (leaving the crew ship-less and 
mortgage-less).  It is then "recovered" by the crew, who get paid a 
recovery fee or bonus by the insurance company.  This isn't nearly enough 
for a new ship (or even a down payment on one), but could still be a nice 
amount of money.  Even in this case, I'm sure the bank and insurance 
company would investigate, and may even "blackball" the captain and crew, 
so that they cannot obtain another bank mortgage on a ship easily.  It will 
probably still happen - but not often.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092000.DSB05659@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>
>As the distance gets longer, wind has its effect on the 
>little 5.56 much more than the 7.62.  But the usual 
>distances in match competitions is 200, 300 and 600 yards, 
>at which distances the M16 is supreme.  It is possible to 
>get superior accuracy at even longer ranges with the M16, 
>but they have to use very heavy bullets (80 grains+) that 
>will not fit in the M16 mags.  As you talked about in your 
>post, the M16 becomes a single shot.  With this 
>proviso, the M16 is beating the M14 at all ranges now in 
>competitions.  I think they are even getting good results at 
>1,000 yards, but these are obviously not issue weapons.
>

I've shot for fun at ranges where state police were 
practicing with their mouse guns.  I was using a Remington 
700 Police DM in .308, with a new barrel.  Past 300 yards, 
there was an incremental advantage, which really opened up at 
about 500 yards (hey, there really IS a morning glory effect).

They were not smirking afterwards.  They wanted my weapon.

>Anyway, when we are talking 1,000 yards we are really 
>talking about ranges for snipers, not infantry.
>

OK.  But how do we identify these men if the basic weapon 
can't do half the sniper's range?

>Certainly ridiculous for me.  An M14 would have to be pretty 
>tweaked to consistantly make shots like that, and you would 
>need optics.  It is a very poor platform for optics and the 
>M14 needs constant maintanence to keep excellent accuracy.  

I never had a maintenance problem with the M-21, nor were the 
optics a problem.  I would recommend not taking off the 
sights (some mounts I saw later were silver soldered to 
prevent removal).  They are not "tweaked" so much as 
specifically chosen/selected and then "gone over" to be 
properly re-bedded (glass bedding certain areas).  A lot of 
factory rifles today (bolt-actions) come with aluminum 
bedding blocks as standard, and have higher quality barrels 
than virtually any military rifle.  So many of them are 
accurate enough "out of the box" to give any semi-auto (and 
this includes a tricked out M-16) a run for its money.

Even though Remington has had its quality control problems 
over the years, I could take virtually any Sendero model out 
of the box and out range anyone with a tricked out M-16.  
Mind you, this means that I would have to set up the shooting 
situation (ambush), but if I had the ability to start the 
fight at a distance and place of my choosing, I'm probably 
going to put several people down before any of the rounds 
come anywhere near me.  At that point, they'll be shooting at 
a target not much larger than a grapefruit, with a round that 
won't penetrate a sandbag at that range (the long bodied 
match rounds are not penetrators).

I am quite sure that if I had a suppressor (not completely 
quiet, but masking the point of origin of the shooting), and 
was using the Mark V M3 10x, and had the strap-on KN-250 
night vision scope, I would probably put down as many people 
as I had rounds in the magazine if the engagement was at 
night.  And that would be at a distance of over 600 yards.  
I'm not sure that the targets (coming out of an area known 
and already spotted) would have much chance of spotting me 
with naked eye, or anything short of thermals).  Just looking 
for me would be suicidal.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:39:44PM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409141022.A18068@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:39:44PM -0400, laning wrote:
>
> >No-one should ever be forced to give away his labour--that would be
> >slavery.  But OTOH it must be recognised that if _I_ give mine away,
> >then _you_ will have a hard time selling yours.  But that is, to be
> >quite honest, your problem.
> 
> I believe that a lot of people new to the situation rather expect
> that gaming companies are big faceless corporations with deep
> pockets, when really they are just the opposite.

No argument there--I've heard the stories.  Heck, a quick look through
con photos in any gaming mag proves the point:-)

But that doesn't matter.  Free software is not about sticking it to
Bill Gates; it's about free software.  Gaming is not about sticking to
to gaming companies (they're generally good people); it's about
gaming.

> I don't know if your "But that is...your problem" remark was
> intended to sound quite as callous as it came across to me in print,
> but that's just me, and as you say that's my problem.

I didn't mean it to sound callous, more as a statement of fact.  What
I meant is that if I produce work (which is my right) and I free it
(which is my right), then someone who produces work (which is his
right) and keeps it proprietary (which is also his right) will have to
do a _much_ better job than I do in order to compete.

I don't feel bad about that, any more than I would if I produced work
and simply sold it for less than the other guy.  I actually feel
_less_ bad, because I have given my work to the world, to do with as
it pleases.

Should Steve Jackson feel bad that he has made it very difficult for
another universal RPG system to be produced?  Of course not.  Should
Marc Miller feel bad that he has upped the ante for science fiction
roleplaying?  Certainly not!  Should Loren Wiseman feel bad that he
has set an incredible precedent for GURPS Traveller supplements?
Perish the thought.  Each has done a wonderful job, and each has made
it harder for another to succeed (a new universal RPG must be better
than GURPs; a new sci-fi RPG must have a better setting the the Third
Imperium; a new series of Traveller supplements must be better than
the GURPS line; these are all tall orders).

Should any of the above feel bad that their own brilliant success has
made it more difficult for me to follow in their footsteps?  No.
Should I be upset?  No.

So what's the difference between them and me?  Don't say that my own
IP is not as precious to me as to them.  I love travlib dearly.  It's
the best work I've ever produced.

If they should not feel bad about out-competing me, why should I feel
bad about out-competing them?  If I should not feel bad that they
out-competed me, why should they feel bad if I out-compete them?

Not that I'd directly compete with any of the above.  I write
software, not supplements.  And yes, my hope is for my GPLed
Traveller-compatible software to enable a lot of other programmers to
write more Traveller-compatible software.  And it doesn't bother me
that this will make it more difficult for others to profit from
proprietary Traveller-compatible software.  Why should it, any more
than it bothers Stephen King that he's made it more difficult for
other to profit from horror novels?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Distracting factors leading to traffic accidents:
  - object or person outside the car 30%
  - adjusting the radio or CD player 11%
  - dealing with another occupant in the car 11%
  - cellular phones 1.5%
     --Highway Safety Research Center at the University of North Carolina

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:13:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:13:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
Message-ID: <F67WW92A0HoXONfjxJJ00006b11@hotmail.com>

Thomas Vickers wrote:

>I don't know about that. I saw a story on the History channel about a 
>Marine
>officer in Korea I think. He made his men take bayonet practice even though
>it was outdated.  They got pinned down on patrol and ran out of ammo.  THe
>officer led a successful bayonet charge up a hill which wiped out the North
>Koreans. That sounds a bit drastic, but useful.

I remember thinking one time when I was staring down the barrel of a .45, 
"thank God he does not have a knife."  Getting penetrated by a knife is 
somehow terrifying, and it also gives the wielder credible non-lethal 
options.  I think there have been several instances in recent times when 
bayonet charges have routed the enemy, even if no one actually got stabbed.  
A bayonet would be vital for handling prisoners, and possibly even reluctant 
heroes.  ;)

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:23:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:23:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408135946.02824dd0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D89BAB.38054%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 11:39 AM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to
> the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300
> feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the
> government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting.

Something is way wrong.  Spec velocity for M193 55gn ball is supposed to be
3250 fps.  You're saying it 2300?!  I've got a bunch of contract stuff.
I'll try to run it through the chrony this weekend.

Found some specs for military ammo:

     "U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition require a 55
grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity of 3,250 q 40 fps from a 20
inch test barrel measured 15 feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement
from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean radius at 200
yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates to approximately three MOA).
"Statistically average" M193 ranges from 1.2 to 1.6 inches mean radius,
which is equivalent to 1.8 to 2.4 MOA. "

     "NATO specifications for SS109 (U.S. M855) Ball require a 61.7 grain
(q 1.5 grains) with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,025 fps
(q 40 fps) from a 20 inch barrel 25 meters from the muzzle. Typical
velocity 15 feet from the M16A2's muzzle is around 3,100 fps. The accuracy
requirement from a test fixture equates to a maximum of approximately four
MOA over the 100 to 600 yard range. Typical accuracy of average lots in an
M16A2 is about 2+ MOA. This round must also penetrate a nominal 10 gauge
SAE 1010 or 1020 steel test plate at a range of at least 570 meters (623
yards). "
 
> I did all my reading on this topic over a dozen years ago, but I seem to
> recall that there has been plenty of reliable material published that
> debunked the notion of the magical differences causing the 5.56 to tumble,
> etc. when no other bullets were able to achieve the same effect.  I said
> that very poorly.  What I mean is that government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam
> had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other
> assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.

All rifle bullets tumble when transiting media.  The M193 round just does it
quicker.  I direct you to several like animal and ballistic studies that
confirm this.  Try The International wound ballistics association
publications or my personal favorite "Antipersonnel Weapons" published by
SIPRI.  There are some rather high speed photographs.

It should be noted that analysis of casualties in the Vietnam war showed the
5.56x45mm to be 11% more likely to produce a casualty (lethal) than
7.62x51mm.  Of course the NVA and VC may have just dragged off all the
bodies with 7.62 holes in them to confise us poor Americans.

> Including poorer 
> accuracy.  

What?!  The M-16 has consistently proved to have a smaller MOA than the M-14
since adoption and up to the present day.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
Message-ID: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Look at Shellshock.  It's just a combat system, but 
it's "free".  The idea is to get everyone to use it, and then 
sell them ancillary product.  In their case, selling "instant 
terrain", etc.

You would still need to defend the intellectual property 
rights of the "free" part of the game, or some game company 
would run off with it.

The core part of GURPS might as well be "free".  I think that 
SJ Games makes most of their money off of all of those 
supplements.  And you have to keep making new supplements in 
order to make money.  It's not an industry with a lot of 
margin in it, either.  Software is expensive to create, more 
so than any role-playing game.  We really should pay someone 
like Loren or Doug a LOT more money for their work.  Imagine 
if Loren was paid as much to write these things as I am paid 
to design software architectures.  Doug would be able to 
spend ALL of this time writing - which I know would radically 
improve his quality and output.  Not that it's bad -- but he 
wouldn't have to do *anything* else (well, maybe feed 
penguins).  And if he had any economic worries (believe me, 
real life intrudes), they might be a lighter burden if he 
knew he had decent medical insurance, paid vacation, and a 
steady income from what he loves to do.

Mind you, we would all run out and apply for the job if that 
were true.

What I would be willing to pay for is a more well-thought out 
game.  I was willing to pay over 500 dollars to accumulate 
the whole PCCS set of books, just to get a "combat system".  
Note that I said "just".  If I could get that detail and 
quality (or better) in a single book, I would gladly pay over 
100 dollars for it (heck, I paid 200 for the Riverside 
Shakespeare, and you can download Shakespeare plays).  I 
would much rather have that than an endless series of rule 
books.

OTOH, I do want an endless series of adventure books, 
background, etc.  I would pay 10 to 20 dollars a month for a 
subscription to a monthly edition of JTAS which would have to 
be equal in quality and depth to a non-gaming magazine 
(Precision Shooting).  Unfortunately, there are more 
benchrest shooters than Traveller players with money.

Given our numbers, and given what we really want and expect, 
we really need to reconsider the economic model.  And not 
just from the perspective of "let's go make a free game".

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:39:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:39:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
Message-ID: <B8D89F67.3805D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 12:46 PM, Sam Draper at samdraper@lansource.net wrote:
> 
> That is very interesting.  I have read in tests that little darts at high
> velocities are remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do
> little tissue damage.  But odd things happen at high velocities.  I'll see
> if I can dig up my source.

It depends on how well they are stabilized.  The trick is to make a
projectile stable in air, but unstable in tissue.  As tissue is about 800
times denser, this is generally not a problem.  As you are doubtlessly
aware, all projectiles tend to yaw, and this tendency is exacerbated when
transiting media.  The long, thin projectile tends to tumble and bend,
creating large permanent wound tracks.  Also, a quick review of Mach's
equation will show that retardation rates for these long projectiles are
high, meaning that more energy is dumped into the target more quickly.

Lastly, it is much easier to drive 'darts' at very high velocities. once a
projectile passes 1450 m/s, the speed of sound in tissue, there is a
dramatic increase in tissue damage.

See Charters & Charters (1976):

Experiments conducted with steel spheres at velocities around 2000 m/s
showed that such projectiles  "could be expected to have significantly
different wounding effect than larger spheres, with approximately the same
energy, impacting at about 750 m/s. The smaller spheres showed less
penetration in gelatin blocks, but much greater lateral damage."

And later: "This type of wound would be particularly disabling and may
require new approaches to debridement and wound closure."

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:48:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:48:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092046.DSD03610@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>     "U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition 
>require a 55 grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity 
>of 3,250 q 40 fps from a 20 inch test barrel measured 15 
>feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement
>from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean 
>radius at 200 yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates 
>to approximately three MOA).

back in 1989, we tested 5.56mm SS109 from four different 
M16A2 (we just got them) at 300 yards.  The range was 
outdoors, so wind was a factor.  The shooters were not your 
run of the mill soldiers.  The lesson was that shooting 
outdoors is not shooting in a test tunnel.  The average group 
size was over 12 inches (some people managed smaller - as 
small as 4 inches).

Using the M-21 without the scope, just NM iron sights, using 
M118 special ball, we all managed 3 to 4 inch groups.

I'm not sure what I would ascribe the difference to, other 
than quality of weapon and quality of ammunition.  

Something else to consider - there is a maximum degree of 
engineering tolerance that you can measure and control when 
manufacturing or reloading ammunition.  The reason that I 
stick to .30 caliber is that those tolerances have less 
effect on a larger, heavier round.  The bullet is larger and 
heavier, the case larger, and the powder charge heavier.  So 
if I vary by the same amount, there's less of an effect - 
more consistent ammunition.

Another reminder - in benchrest shooting, if you don't limit 
the magnification or weapon weight, people tend to the .22 
PPC.  It's an *extremely* accurate round out of extremely 
accurate rifles.  But as soon as the magnification is limited 
to 6x, or the weapons are firing from NM iron sights, 
the .308 rules, even over the 6mm PPC.  The .223 Remington - 
is not seen - in benchrest circles.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:53:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:53:05 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.110558.7F2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several 
> places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and 
> they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone 
> in the place.

"the rifle"?

What is it, a Barret .50 or something? 

> I went out and bought another one.  But it's not like the 
> place I work for now really needs to know that.  You really 
> are treated as a second-class citizen, just for owning a 
> firearm.

I'd be surprised if that happened around here.

> I don't know how Tod does it, or Mark, or some of the other 
> NFA holders.  People would jump out of their skins here if I 
> told them I was going to buy an NFA weapon.

Ok, *that* I can understand.

> ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because 
> people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.

I suspect that folks are still gonna get a bit uncomfortable around
folks who are "over-armed" for the situation. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:54:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:54:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <20020405.142533.-122687.3.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20409.111006.0U8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> How about oosik? 
>
> Say what??? What's Oosik??

It's the penis bone of walruses.

Yes, many mammals have a *real* "boner". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:55:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:55:50 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.111435.4V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the 
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of 
> war.  People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or 
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.  
> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their 
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full 
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in 
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything 
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).
>
> It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message 
> across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you 
> have to do.
>
> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their 
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like 
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to 
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough 
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their 
> ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on 
> the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay 
> waste to an advanced industrial society?

If they have reason to *expect* that sort of thing? 

A *lot*. Especially given that once nuclear damper tech is available,
decontamination is a matter of raising the decay rate of the fallout
and other contaminated material as high as you can without generating
more heat than you want to deal with. 

A planet is a *big* place. 

There's also the fact that if you do it to them, you'd better expect
them to return the favor.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:57:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:57:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020405164806.00a49df0@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <20409.112410.6E7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:20:15 -0700, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>
>>Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>>blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>>strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.
>
> Put me down as afraid of guns, then.  Being in the presence of a real, 
> functioning weapon makes me nervous.  In most circumstances, I would refuse 
> to even hold one.
>
> To some extent, this is probably because I was never acclimated to them as 
> a youth, through hunting or whatever.  But I am similarly nervous around 
> anything that can cause death or serious injury, even/especially by 
> accident or negligence.

Knives, chainsaw, cars, hammers, baseball bats....

> For example, I used to work at a gas station; part 
> of my job was refilling propane cylinders from the big tank out back.  I 
> hated it.  The stuff was cryo-cold, flammable, explosive, and under high 
> pressure.  I was trained for it, but I still hated it.

I used to work around stuff like hydrofluoric acid and 180 C baths of
concentrated caustic (NaOH/KOH mix). 

I was *cautious*. I wasn't scared.

Someone who *was* scared managed to splash himself with weak HF
solution *because* he was scared. Rather than lower the carrier
carefully into the bath by the handle, he'd *drop* them.

Rational caution is one thing. *Fear* is quite another.

> There's also the "with great power comes great responsibility" angle.
> I do not want or need the power to maim or kill another human being,
> or the responsibility that necessarily comes with it.

I take it that you don't drive then. 

Seriously. a car is a deadlier weapon than most guns.

> It's a lot harder to kill someone with a jacket.  Definitely not 
> impossible, but jackets are not primarily designed to apply deadly 
> force.  A firearm is, and I grant them all the respect they are due
> as a result.

Knives are primarily designed to cut flesh. It's all in how you use a
tool. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:58:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:58:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20409.114039.8S6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear 
> devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and 
> convincing reasons for it.

It takes an unreasonable amount of effort to damage a *planet*. 

Destroying cities and installations on or near the surface is easier,
but still, a lot of effort. 

You've got to realize that there are lots of places on earth, hell,
even in the US where you could set off the biggest nuke ever made, and
the folks a town or two over wouldn't notice anything but the fallout.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:59:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:59:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20409.114950.6a1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> But mutual destruction is not assured.  One side would have to win a 
> years-long naval campaign in order to deliver its nuclear warheads against 
> all the appropriate targets.  Strephon, from the comfort of his Capital 
> doesn't fear in the least for his own safety or his families in the event 
> of nuclear exchange with the Zhodani.  And the Vargr Extents are such a 
> hotheaded place that I cannot be convinced all the nuclear warheads that 
> have been in that region for centuries were never used due to its leaders' 
> very enlightened view about protecting civilization.  As the Sword Worlders 
> should have nuked whoever they were ticked at many times over by now.  And 
> the Aslan prize honor well above their own individual lives.  Aside from 
> cultural biases toward or away nuclear warfare, there have just been so 
> many _individual_ sophonts with their fingers on the button in different 
> times and places that it should have happened many times by now.

Remember, nuking a *planet* is about the same "scale" as nuking a
*city* now. At least relative to the sizes of the major players.

But it involves a *lot* more effort. We are talking tens to *hundreds*
of *thousands* of warheads. And that's just for a "sparse" coverage. 

A size 7 world is 7000 miles in diameter. That gives a surface area of
over 150 *million* square miles. That means that if you hit it with
10,000 warheads they'll average 125 miles apart!

With 100,000, they'll average a bit under 40 miles apart.

Planets are *big*.

> And in a way, the game's authors agree with that notion.  But only in 
> general.  There seems to be a lack of specific worlds that have actually 
> been thoroughly nuked over to go with the general history of 
> destruction.  Let me go through all the relevant canonical evidence that 
> come to my (sputtering and unreliable) memory to see what each one in turn 
> makes me think about how MAD affected things.
>
> The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:
> The Ancients War
> Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani
> Presumably the N Interstellar wars
> Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night
> Very early in Zhodani history
> Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) from 
> on Darrian

No, what happened to the Darrians was an accident. An induced solar
"flare" of incredible magnitude. Sort of a "mini-nova". 

> At least I think it was nukes with Darrian.  Or something just as 
> devastating, so the MAD concept would still apply.

Except the Darrians are the only ones who have the Star Trigger. 

> I can easily accept that enough time has passed since nuclear weapons were 
> used by the Ancients that we shouldn't look for reduced populations or 
> uninhabitable areas due to them.  But their war is an example of none of 
> the sides being deterred by MAD.
>
> The war against the Ziru Sirka should have left marks on various planets 
> that would have been mentioned elsewhere in canon.  It is an example of 
> just how geographically vast wars between interstellar powers are, and how 
> that makes MAD unlikely.
>
> There don't seem to be any worlds still showing mentionable signs of 
> nuclear weapons from the N Instellar Wars.  Ditto for examples from the 
> Long Night.

You are forgetting that with nuclear dampers, you can clean up the
radioactive contamination *easily*. and unless truly amazing numbers of
weapons are used, the actual *blast* damage will easily disappear on
something as big as a planet. 

> Darrian seems to be a good canonical instance of nuclear warfare happening 
> specifically somewhere, not just in a general way to somebody.

That wasn't anything as trivial as a nuclear war. The Maghiz clobbered
electronics and the like for *parsecs* from the Darrian home system.

> I find it hard to believe there are no famous specific examples of worlds 
> in the Core sector being "razed" by nukes dropped by one of the Barracks 
> Emperors or wannabes.  Civil wars tend to be the least civil, as the old 
> saying goes.

You are missing the *scale* of things. Dropping a nuke on a planet is
(relatively speaking) equivalent to throwing a grenade into a *room* of
a building in a city. At worst, blowing up a small building. 

You won't find the damage unless you *look* for it. 

> There are also quite a few canonical instances of balkanized worlds or 
> neighboring worlds that are on the brink of total nuclear warfare in the 
> current timeline.  If such tensions have careened towards the brink so 
> often in current times, how could they have been so consistently avoided 
> during the pasts of all the locations that canon visits and shows us.

Maybe they weren't. 

It's just that contrary to popular belief, anything short of the level
required to trigger something like a nuclear winter, *won't* be all
that noticeable even 300 years later. 

Even without damper tech, in 300 years high-level nuclear waste will be
no more radioactive than the original uranium ore. Stuff like fallout
would take careful tests to detect. The craters of surface blasts would
be detectable with radiation detectors. But only as areas a bit more
radioactive than normal. 

Bulldoze the dirt and rubble from the "total destruction" zone around
the crater into it (a good idea to both fill the hole and to help
"immobilize" the contaminated material) and it'd be hard to tell after
even a hundred years.

Remember, the more radioactive something is, the *shorter* the
half-life, and thus the quicker it becomes safe.

So, short of researching local history, or doing a *detailed* survey of
an area, you'd never know that there'd been a nuclear war unless it was
*really* bad.


Which reminds me. Some day I need to sit down and try to figure out
what would be required to produce a "burned off" world such as appears
in some of Norton's books. Especially something like "the Big Burn" on
Terra from "Plague Ship". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:01:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:01:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.121152.9P1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>      "Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani."
>
>      Canon is littered with references to the Vilani "way" of war being 
> brutally pragmatic.  IMHO, the Ziru Sirka would have used nukes early and 
> often.  Then again, I have trouble believing the canonical description of 
> the Interstellar War anyway.
>      GT:RoF has the Vilani visiting Terra after the 2nd War.  These 
> representatives of the ZS must have been either brain dead or traitors not 
> to bring an accurate report back to Dingir from Sol.  After being shown a 
> ~10 billion humans on an industrialized world, the "brutally pragmatic" 
> Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt.

Sorry, not *possible*. Not even the third Imperium has *that* kind of
firepower. 

It'd (barely) be possible to "pave" the surface, if you had *lots* of
time and money..

>      All the explanations about population levels, internal Vilani politics, 
> blah, blah, blah, are just liberal doses of handwavium.  With the 
> superioroty in maneuver drives and missile tech that RoF claims for them, 
> the Ziro Sirka would have, could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it 
> glowed.

Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
Millions, hundreds of millions.

>      Perhaps, or maybe it's just damper technology.  I don't have Striker to 
> hand, but IIRC dampers pretty much draw the fangs out of nukes.  How 
> easy/hard would it be for PDFs to maintain damper coverage for an entire 
> world?  Could such coverage be projected from orbit by naval vessels?  If 
> so, the 3I could show up above some balkanized world with a nasty squabble 
> taking place and declare a "no-nukes" zone with a couple of orbitting 
> escorts.

It'd be easier to just "sweep" areas with dampers set to "mildly"
accelerate reactions and cause any chunks of fissionables above a
certain size to melt into puddles (which could lead to messy side
reactions as the spreading puddles meet).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:02:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:02:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <010301c1de1d$72819f80$a85d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20409.125213.4J9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>> I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because
>> humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill
>> that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate
>> thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in
>> Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost
>> any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something
>> separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before.
>
> The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
> Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
> million or more - far greater than the examples given above.

The camps didn't just kill Jews. Add in the homosexuals and gypsies and
you get more than 10 million.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] G:Ground Forces queston
In-Reply-To: <B8D3910E.30E8%jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20409.133914.4F8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In the Grav vehicle design section, duct fans are listed as having a
> positive energy amount, instead of negative.  Is this an error or do they
> actually act as power plants?

Well, unless they are driven electrically, they are engines turning the
fans.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:05:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:05:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3B11B.377EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20409.134026.4K8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/5/02 7:30 PM, Trista at asmahan@the-spa.com wrote:
>
>> Hmmm, that sounds like the book 'Forlorn Hope'; mercenaries use
>> something called a 'cone bore rifle', the barrel of which is supposedly
>> of diamond and fires an osmium needle which is compressed as it travels
>> through the barrel and reaches hypervelocites. Had them in cannon size
>> too as I recall.

And it was one of those artillery sized ones that got them in trouble.
They managed to shoot down a multi-billion credit starship with it.

Thus causing the opposition to specifically *exclude* them from the
amnesty. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:06:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:06:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Flechettes
Message-ID: <200204092052.DSD04457@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn
<snip about flechettes>

See Dr. Fackler at
http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/pmrb.html

There are the other bullets we were discussing there, as well 
as Fackler talking about flechettes.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:08:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:08:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:35:30PM -0400
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:35:30PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> You would still need to defend the intellectual property 
> rights of the "free" part of the game, or some game company 
> would run off with it.

That's the difference philosophy between the GPL and BSD.  The GPL
says `this is free, and whatever you do with it must also be free.'
The BSD says `this is free; enjoy.'  I'm partial to the GPL, simply
because otherwise someone else can take that work and profit from
closing it.  But there are good arguments for both models, depending
on what one's goals are.

Tax-funded work, for instance, should be BSD-licensed, never
proprietary, thus allowing everyone to use it.

> We really should pay someone like Loren or Doug a LOT more money for
> their work.

Well, it's all a matter of what the market will bear.  Software pays
better because there's more demand.  RPGs pay worse because there's
not as much.

I try to help by purchasing about as many RPGs as I can afford (I've
got almost all of the main GT line, including GT:FT, GT:FI and GT:GF).
I figure that Loren, Doug, Marc and the rest all deserve a bit for the
good work they've done.

The fact that I collect RPGs doesn't enter into it:-)

> What I would be willing to pay for is a more well-thought out 
> game.

That's part of the value add one gets with a professional editor.
Most people cannot properly edit their own work.  I wonder if it might
not be possible for there to be money in taking freely-available work
and compiling it onto one large work.  Slap a compilation copyright
over the whole thing (to prevent others from just grabbing it up), but
the individual pieces are still free for anyone.

> Heck, I paid 200 for the Riverside Shakespeare, and you can download
> Shakespeare plays.

Yup.  Shakespeare's copy rights long ago expired--yet there's still a
market in them.  And there's still a market in plays, despite the fact
that, AFAICT, no-one's managed to do any better since.

> Given our numbers, and given what we really want and expect, we
> really need to reconsider the economic model.  And not just from the
> perspective of "let's go make a free game".

Well, something folks should realise is that it's not a free game in
the sense of money: a lot of work and effort would go into such a
thing.  I've spent man-months working on travlib and travtrack; I've
poured a lot of my life into them.  The same would hold for a free
system.  It's free in the sense of freedom; anyone could enjoy its
use.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If your adversary is badly bunkered, there is no rule against your
standing over him and counting his strokes aloud, but it will be a wise
precaution to arm yourself with the niblick before doing so, so as to
meet him on equal terms.                 --Horace G. Hutchinson, 1886

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:10:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:10:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F164o8C7wyfwjHNuQuN000048cd@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon:

>I've shot for fun at ranges where state police were
>practicing with their mouse guns.  I was using a Remington
>700 Police DM in .308, with a new barrel.  Past 300 yards,
>there was an incremental advantage, which really opened up at
>about 500 yards (hey, there really IS a morning glory effect).
>
>They were not smirking afterwards.  They wanted my weapon.

True, issue semi-autos do not have the accuracy of accurized bolt guns.  But 
the AR-15 is pretty close, as close as it comes really.  Comparing police 
issue M16s (Vietnam era M16A1s or carbines?) to a 700 Police DM is really 
apples and oranges.

> >Anyway, when we are talking 1,000 yards we are really
> >talking about ranges for snipers, not infantry.
> >
>
>OK.  But how do we identify these men if the basic weapon
>can't do half the sniper's range?

I think most Marines can hit a torso sized target at 500 yards about 100% of 
the time.  I don't think I am going out on a limb by saying their chances of 
hitting the target at that range is not going to be any greater with an M14. 
  Certainly a match M16 can beat a match M14 at that range (absent extreme 
winds).

>I never had a maintenance problem with the M-21, nor were the
>optics a problem.  I would recommend not taking off the
>sights (some mounts I saw later were silver soldered to
>prevent removal).

What mount are you using?  I have never found one that repeats zero after 
removal, and I am not comoftable with having to resight a weapon every time 
I want to give it a thorough cleaning.  I have looked at the ARMS mount, and 
it looks pretty solid, but it will still not be as good as mounting optic 
direcly on the reciever like you can with the M16A4.

>They are not "tweaked" so much as
>specifically chosen/selected and then "gone over" to be
>properly re-bedded (glass bedding certain areas).

The problem with the M14 is that the bedding needs to be redone every 
season.  Otherwise, its accuracy will deteriorate.  The M16 does not need 
bedding, and it can easily be free-floated.

>factory rifles today (bolt-actions) come with aluminum
>bedding blocks as standard, and have higher quality barrels
>than virtually any military rifle.  So many of them are
>accurate enough "out of the box" to give any semi-auto (and
>this includes a tricked out M-16) a run for its money.

I would say that most commercial rifles, like the ones from Wal-Mart, would 
definately not get better accuracy than a match M16.  Certainly a tricked 
out or upgraded bolt action would probably be better than a tricked out M16 
though.

>Even though Remington has had its quality control problems
>over the years, I could take virtually any Sendero model out
>of the box and out range anyone with a tricked out M-16.

Of course it depends on what you are doing.  Would you arm an entire army 
with Senderos?  It is not exactly the ideal close-quarters weapon.  Sure, 
the bolt gun would be superior to an M16 in the specific scenario you 
mention, but that does not necessarily make it superior in all situations.  
The M16A2 is a classic Jack of all Trades weapon.  Capable of aimed fire out 
to 500 yards, most effective at under 200 yards, which (they say) is where 
most infantry combat takes place.  While the M16 may have rang limits, it is 
supported by a variety of longer range weapons.  I think the army, when 
adopting the M16, correctly decided that there is a real limit to how far 
the average infantryman can shoot effectively, and adopted a weapon that is 
optimized for that range.  The longer range stuff is the responsiblity of 
the supporting weapons (which you left out of your sniper scenario).

On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off some 
M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and issuing them at 
the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max 500 yards?) and sniper 
(800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the guy with the M14 the 
"designated marksman" or something like that.  The guy who wrote the article 
I read did not like the idea, because of the the difficulties associated 
with the accurized M14s as stated above and standardization issues, but from 
what I understand these were deployed to Afghanistan so we should be getting 
reports soon.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:11:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:11:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204072135.DON00704@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D8A4C3.3806F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 2:35 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> laning asks
>> 
>> Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread,
>> mentioning the ability of various Traveller races to cope
>> with recoil, I should have also mentioned battle dress.
>> That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more recoil.  But
>> how much?
>> 
> 
> Good question.  I've always wondered about this, because if
> you could carry large weapons and handle high recoil, you
> would have a semi-auto rifle that fired high velocity 20mm
> (not low velocity 20mm like the OICW).
> 
> 20mm californium rounds, that is.  The one part of Striker I
> really liked.  Hit someone in battledress and watch the
> little mushroom cloud.

With 'soft recoil' weapons, you can shoot some pretty big stuff.  The
problem is having any accuracy when shooting off a non-rigid platform (like
a person).

I have a photo somewhere of someone shooting a .50 Browing machinegun (soft
recoil version) full auto off their shoulder.

How does 'soft recoil' work you ask?

In a simple example, a large percentage of the weapon is capable of movement
within its mount.  The moving portion (including the barrel and bolt)  is
held rearward under spring pressure.  On firing, the moving assembly is
propelled forward, with the actual round being fired at some predetermined
point, usually just before 'run out'.  The rearward force of firing must
overcome the forward momentum of the assembly before any recoil is felt.

This is the reason that open bolt SMGs have less recoil than closed bolt
guns.

it is quite possible to design gun of fairly large caliber and KE that can
be fired tolerably by a person.

The problem with these systems is maintaining point of aim while the
assembly goes rocketing forward before the round is actually fired.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:12:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:12:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8D8A503.38070%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 3:05 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth
> for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and
> for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females
> it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing.
> Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how
> old the data is.

I just looked at my spreadsheets and see that the thickness I used was
actually 25 cm.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:14:52 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204092104.DSD06042@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson asks
>
>"the rifle"?

Remington 700 Police DM, in .308. (Comes with HS Precision 
stock with integral aluminum bedding block). Action 
reworked/firing pin replaced with titanium pin, barrel 
replaced with heavy contour Douglas Premium Match barrel, 
Timney trigger, Leupold Mark V M3 10x scope with mil-dot 
reticle, NEAR one-piece scope base optimized to get the most 
elevation adjustement out of the scope, Vortex flash 
suppressor, bipod, Simrad KN-250 GEN III night vision with 
adapter to fit over Leupold Mark V.

Some were frightened just by seeing it, some by going to the 
range with me and *seeing* it.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F36GB9wIWXLU9778dvM000038ae@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon said:

>back in 1989, we tested 5.56mm SS109 from four different
>M16A2 (we just got them) at 300 yards.  The range was
>outdoors, so wind was a factor.  The shooters were not your
>run of the mill soldiers.  The lesson was that shooting
>outdoors is not shooting in a test tunnel.  The average group
>size was over 12 inches (some people managed smaller - as
>small as 4 inches).

I think the military only requires 3 or 4 MOA from its M16A2s, so that is 
not out of line.  Standard issue M14s were not required to do any better.  
Whether those were mediocre rifles or mediocre ammo (I'll take your word for 
it that there were no mediocre shooters ;)), I've seen much better.

Were these U.S. rifles?  Just curious, as the army does not call the 62 
grain round SS109; here it is called M855.

>Using the M-21 without the scope, just NM iron sights, using
>M118 special ball, we all managed 3 to 4 inch groups.

That is not realy fair comparing an M21 with NM sights to issue M16s.  It is 
undeniable that the M14s have been entirely replaced by M16/AR-15s at the 
National Matches.  This is at ranges out to 600 yards.  The Marine team even 
switched, because they found it intolerable to keep getting whipped by the 
Army.  One shooting comparison between two different quality rifles is 
hardly an even playing field.

Did you guys see that a female teenage Marine won the national matches (with 
an M16) a few years ago?

>I'm not sure what I would ascribe the difference to, other
>than quality of weapon and quality of ammunition.

Ammunition maybe, and maybe poor quality assembly, but not the weapon 
system.

>The .223 Remington -
>is not seen - in benchrest circles.

The .223 is a fairly accurate round, on par with most cartridges.  The 308 
is theoretically more accurate.  It is certainly more resistant to the wind. 
  But as far as semi-auto platforms, there is nothing better than Stoner's 
design.  Put a 308 in an M16 platform, like the AR-10 or SR-25, and you get 
outstanding accuracy.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092132.DSF01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>  says
>Comparing police issue M16s (Vietnam era M16A1s or 
>carbines?) to a 700 Police DM is really 
>apples and oranges.
>

These were Montgomery County Police and Maryland State Police 
with heavily tricked-out M-16 variants (you know the type, 
looks like a Gauss rifle).  They were all firing match grade 
ammunition.  They did best at 100 yards, which is their 
engagement distance.  Past that...  Out at 800 yards, where 
the wind blows, you have to compensate more for the 5.56mm.

>
>I think most Marines can hit a torso sized target at 500 
>yards about 100% of the time.

Marines yes, Army infantry, no way.  And that assumes that 
your enemy is standing in the open.  Most experienced 
soldiers go into the prone.  Once you're in the prone, the 
bolt action in the hands of a sniper has the advantage, 
because you can hit grapefruit-sized targets very reliably at 
300 to 400 yards, and most of the time at 500.  Take those 
same Marines and try to have them hit the grapefruit at 500.  
There's probably a Distinguished Marksman in there, isn't 
there?

>  Certainly a match M16 can beat a match M14 at that range 
> absent extreme winds).
>

Part of the reason the M-16 does better is *over* a course of 
fire - fatigue due to recoil is an effect.  

>What mount are you using?  

The standard one that came with the weapon - round knob.  
There's a lot of grief to be had from removing it, but you 
can find a good one.  Then again - for purposes of real 
accuracy, I've never been able to get "detachable" mounts of 
any kind to repeat zero.


>scenario

That's why you shoot in order - RTO, machinegunner, anti-tank 
missile gunner, sergeant, LT.  But, like I said, spotting me 
in the first place is difficult.  But if all the police have 
is a set of mouseguns, then set up with a Sendero at 600 
yards.  Not one will ever return fire, unless there are more 
than four.

Go to the store and look at a Sendero.  It's not a custom 
weapon, but it is very, very good.  About the only thing it 
requires is a properly mounted high quality scope and having 
the bolt squared and lapped.  I've had two (and a 700P), and 
all of them were 1/2 MOA out of the box.  The remaining work 
was for my peace of mind.  My 700P was close to 1/4 MOA.

The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my 
rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these, 
and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get 
him without losing half the team or more."

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F166rhup7IpGwC6RZT20000d54e@hotmail.com>

Tod Glen:

>It depends on how well they are stabilized.  The trick is to make a
>projectile stable in air, but unstable in tissue.  As tissue is about 800
>times denser, this is generally not a problem.  As you are doubtlessly
>aware, all projectiles tend to yaw, and this tendency is exacerbated when
>transiting media.  The long, thin projectile tends to tumble and bend,
>creating large permanent wound tracks.  Also, a quick review of Mach's
>equation will show that retardation rates for these long projectiles are
>high, meaning that more energy is dumped into the target more quickly.

That all makes a lot of sense to me, but it just seems like I read something 
that said kind of the opposite.  The site where I thought I read that is 
down though, and my memory is hardly infallible - except in regards to the 
velocity of 5.56mm ball of course.  ;)

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:02:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:02:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F80Dll7fnp3eEHJtfob00001392@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon said:

>These were Montgomery County Police and Maryland State Police
>with heavily tricked-out M-16 variants (you know the type,
>looks like a Gauss rifle).  They were all firing match grade
>ammunition.  They did best at 100 yards, which is their
>engagement distance.  Past that...  Out at 800 yards, where
>the wind blows, you have to compensate more for the 5.56mm.

With tricke out M16s, these guys are crappy shots if they can not make a 
headshot at 600 yards.  True, your Sendero will be better, but the M16 
should still be able to do the job.

>Marines yes, Army infantry, no way.  And that assumes that
>your enemy is standing in the open.  Most experienced
>soldiers go into the prone.  Once you're in the prone, the
>bolt action in the hands of a sniper has the advantage,
>because you can hit grapefruit-sized targets very reliably at
>300 to 400 yards, and most of the time at 500.  Take those
>same Marines and try to have them hit the grapefruit at 500.
>There's probably a Distinguished Marksman in there, isn't
>there?

Again, no question that a 308 bolt gun will do better at longer ranges than 
an issue M16.  A tricked out AR-15 could be able to make headshots at that 
range too.  A 308 bolt gun from Wal-Mart would not.

>Part of the reason the M-16 does better is *over* a course of
>fire - fatigue due to recoil is an effect.

Sure.

> >What mount are you using?
>
>The standard one that came with the weapon - round knob.

Is that the Springfield mount?

>Then again - for purposes of real
>accuracy, I've never been able to get "detachable" mounts of
>any kind to repeat zero.

I have had outstanding results with mil-spec rails, but maybe our 
definitions of what is acceptable is different.

> >scenario
>
>That's why you shoot in order - RTO, machinegunner, anti-tank
>missile gunner, sergeant, LT.  But, like I said, spotting me
>in the first place is difficult.  But if all the police have
>is a set of mouseguns, then set up with a Sendero at 600
>yards.  Not one will ever return fire, unless there are more
>than four.

I would not be too sure.  People win national matches at 600 yards with 
M16s.  They can mount some pretty nice optics/night vision, etc. on their 
weapon, and the pros can make a headshot at that range.

Besides, in your sniper scenario, as a lover of peace and tranquility I'd 
simply avoid them.

>Go to the store and look at a Sendero.

I don't have to go to the store.  ;)

>It's not a custom
>weapon, but it is very, very good.  About the only thing it
>requires is a properly mounted high quality scope and having
>the bolt squared and lapped.  I've had two (and a 700P), and
>all of them were 1/2 MOA out of the box.  The remaining work
>was for my peace of mind.  My 700P was close to 1/4 MOA.

Which is not all that remarkable for rigs like that.  I actually like 
Winchesters and get similar results.  And don't you dare start a 
Winchester/Remington thing on this thread!

Anway, my point was that a stock AR-15 HBAR will get 1/2 MOA too.  1/4 MOA 
is doable with some upgrades.

I definately agree with you that wind effects 5.56 more than 308, but on the 
other hand you have to start making adjustments for wind for any caliber at 
the longer ranges you are talking about.

>The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my
>rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these,
>and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get
>him without losing half the team or more."

Those cops have seen one Stephen Segal movie too many.  ;)

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F80Dll7fnp3eEHJtfob00001392@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D8B7BA.3813B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 3:01 PM, Sam D at samdx@hotmail.com wrote:

>> The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my
>> rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these,
>> and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get
>> him without losing half the team or more."
> 
> Those cops have seen one Stephen Segal movie too many.  ;)

Reality.  The police evacuate the area.  Then they get their negotiator to
bore you to death.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092239.DSH02057@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>Reality.  The police evacuate the area.  Then they get their 
>negotiator to bore you to death.
>--

The assets that police have: time, time, and more time.  And 
some more time.

That's why you keep seeing idiots in orange jumpsuits or 
black bodybags on CNN.  The police wait until you decide to 
put on the orange suit, or they wait until you get so tired 
that they rush you and put the black bag on you.

Which makes me wonder what happened in various Federal 
situations.  As long as no one is being killed, I would 
presume that you have all the time in the world.  Even if 
they've killed officers, you can still wait.

ObTrav: Idiot players trapped in their ship by the police.  
Locals set up a carnival row; onlookers begin to camp out.  
News media do unflattering background stories on the players 
and their families. Police start pinochle tournament.  
Players resort to eating their shoes.



________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20409.121152.9P1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com> <20409.121152.9P1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020410084316.A2115@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

[someone wrote:]
> > Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt.
>
> Sorry, not *possible*. Not even the third Imperium has *that* kind of
> firepower.

Not with nukes, no.  They are quite expensive per unit of energy.  And
certainly not on a whim.

The Third Imperium could actually build and transport about 10^17 N
worth of HEPlaR drives per year.  Thruster plates would be even
easier, but I'll assume HEPlaR.  A decade worth of HEPlaR production
gives you 10^18 N of thrust.  The cost of building the mining systems
and refineries for them to run on water would would be relatively
trivial in comparison.

You find a nice large cometary body, say 1000 km across, to mount them
on.  You build a shell around it.  You accelerate it for a further
decade at 0.0003g (initially), aimed at Terra.  By the time it gets
there, about 60% of the mass has been consumed and it's moving at
about 1500 km/s.  If my calculations are correct, that should deliver
enough energy to overcome Earth's gravitational self-binding.

In practice it wouldn't be that efficient, but it would certainly
create a new asteroid belt, and render what's left of the planet into
a recondensing ball of gas.  It would also noticeably alter Earth's
orbit, lengthening or shortening the year by about half a day or so.


> > the Ziro Sirka would have, could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it 
> > glowed.
> 
> Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
> Millions, hundreds of millions.

What scary numbers.

Ten million 100-megaton warheads costs about 1 TCr at Ziru Sirka tech
levels.  That's less than some *single* systems' GWP for just one
year.  Furthermore, the whole load could be carried in a few transport
ships.  The total cost (including transportation) works out about the
same as a couple of dreadnaughts, and they deliver enough energy to
raise the temperature of the entire surface of the planet to the point
where it does *literally* glow.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>

The esteemed sophonts Summer, Pitt, Robertson, Bond, Laning, Wildstar and
others I am no doubt forgetting to credit, wrote eloquently on starship
insurance, leading me to commit random observations on insurance and law in
Traveller.

Your premiums would be a function your risk pool, the size of your
deductible, and what riders you have on your policy.

What kinds of insurance do starships need?  Several spring to mind.
Starships carrying a mortgage will require comprehensive insurance which
would include the following:

Theft and Casualty - Fairly straightforward, this insurance compensates the
insured in the event the ship, or any portion thereof, is stolen or damaged.
Common exclusions (circumstances under which the insurance does not apply)
would probably include: Loss as a result of Acts of God or Nature; Loss as a
result of Acts of Warfare; Loss as a result of Acts of Terrorism; Loss as a
result of Natural Hazards to Navigation; Loss due to Malice, Fraud or Acts
of Deliberate Intent on the part of the Insured, Loss Incurred while
Violating Imperial or Regional Law (including, among many things, travel in
a Red Zone.

Available riders (additional coverage relating to specific circumstances
available for higher premiums) would probably include: Atmospheric Entry;
Gas Giant Refueling; Planetfall Outside Approved Starports; Stellar Flares;
Uncharted Hazards to Navigation; Utilization of Jump-Space, Travel to an
Amber Zone.

Payouts in the event of damage will be the cost of repair of the damage, or
replacement of the damaged part(s) minus the deductible.  Payouts in the
case of theft or total loss of the vessel will be either the current value
of the ship (the Blue Book value) or a pre-agreed value established in the
policy (the more expensive, but perhaps better choice for older vessels that
may not hold their value as well.)  In either case, the payout would, of
course, be minus the deductible.

Premium reductions would probably be available for unusually well trained or
certified key crewmembers such as Captain, pilot and astrogator.
Anti-hijack and port security programs, as well as security officers on
board might also get you a discount if such things are not required by law
already.

That's frequently how insurance companies get policy holders to toe the
line.  Not by filling the policy with onerous requirements (although they're
not above that,) but by lobbying the law-making and regulatory bodies to
pass legislation and regulations that enforce the behavior the insurance
companies desire.  It also has the added benefit that the government is now
inspecting and enforcing for the insurance companies.

Modern day example:  Seat belts.  I don't think (although I could be wrong,
I'm still wet behind the ears) that insurance policies in the USA ever
required passengers in insured vehicles to wear seat belts.  Seat belts,
when used, lower insurance payouts.  Now, largely as a result of insurance
lobbying, seat belts must, by law, be worn in Texas and nearly everywhere
else. (any states in the union that don't require seat belts?)

This already too long by far, and I haven't even got into hypothetical legal
cases regarding theft and casualty insurance in the TU, much less moved on
to other kinds of insurance.

More on insurance later, if there is sufficient interest.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:55:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:55:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020410085426.A2419@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> Anyway, off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to
> make this work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the
> square-root of the inertial suppression factor.

If you're directly altering the strength of the interaction, the
strength should drop off exactly in line with the mass reduction.  The
square-root factor was when altering the *charge*.

You should likewise reduce the strength of the strong and weak forces.


Now, just Planck's constant to deal with :)

If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
well.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:57:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:57:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F793hRDT6Z3LstPGtPr00011ce3@hotmail.com>

So am I right in saying that these little gauss projectiles you all are 
talking about, the ones that do so much damage, are not fletchettes?  They 
use spin to stabilize in the air rather than little wings, right?

If so, that is where I got so horribly confused.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.151435.2e5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a 
> miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no 
> visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).

A pulse laser capable of doing srious damage to a human *will* leave a
path of ionization thru the air. This will give both a visible beam
*and* a distinctive noise. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:06:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:06:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20409.151650.6b9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/6/02 2:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>
>> 
>> But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a
>> miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no
>> visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).
>> 
>
> What type of laser? What power range?  Are their any ionizing effects?
> Certainly the laser makes noise when it hits the target.  Steam explosions
> in tissue, the popping of superheated fat.
>
> And ever looked at a later with LI gear?  Super obvious.  Like having a big
> pointer going back to the firer.  And lasers are relatively easy to defeat,
> or at least attenuate.  A few mils of highly reflective material sewn into
> clothing, prismatic aerosols.  As mentioned in a previous post, lasers are
> not good penetrators.  The problem is with the nature of lasers themselves.
> The have to vaporize there way through materials.  But the vaporized
> material itself can act as a hindrance to the laser.

Which is why you use a pulse laser with a *short* pulse duration. The
target spot flashes into plasma at supersonic speeds and blasts a nice
hole. 

And reflective material won't help as much as people think. 99%
reflectivity is *hard* to achieve. And 1% of the pulse energy is still
nasty. 

> Also, water (and by analogy tissue) is a great thermal sink. 55 calories to
> raise 1 cc of water 1 degree centigrade, IIRC.

Yeah, but given that the pulse energy is in the kJ to MJ range, this
isn't as much of a problem as you may think.

Remember, *by definition* a laser weapon has to be able to deposit
damaging amounts of energy. 

Basicly, the only effect wavelength will have is on the penetration
depth. That is, how far the energy of the pulse pentrates before being
absorbed. 

Keep in mind that while the *energy* of the pulse might only be a few
kilojoules the *power* level will be in the megawatt to gigawatt range.
Pulses of 1 millisecond or *shorter* will be wanted, both to avoid
problems with target movement, but also because the shorter duration
tends to increase the "shock" effect due to increased rapidity of
energy deposition.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <20409.151650.6b9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018393991.5137.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Which is why you use a pulse laser with a *short* pulse duration. The
> target spot flashes into plasma at supersonic speeds and blasts a nice
> hole. 

And, since this isn't clear, it's probably better to use multiple pulses; if
the pulses are close enough together in time you can drill a hole.

> Basicly, the only effect wavelength will have is on the penetration
> depth. That is, how far the energy of the pulse pentrates before being
> absorbed. 

Well, it has a fairly significant effect on range.  Higher penetration also
allows higher energy per pulse, since heat is deposited efficiently at a
greater depth.
> 
> Keep in mind that while the *energy* of the pulse might only be a few
> kilojoules the *power* level will be in the megawatt to gigawatt range.
> Pulses of 1 millisecond or *shorter* will be wanted, both to avoid
> problems with target movement, but also because the shorter duration
> tends to increase the "shock" effect due to increased rapidity of
> energy deposition.

Think microsecond.  You want to create a supersonic shock effect.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:29:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:29:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>

Used to be Scripting Help...

 Well IMTU, originally there wasn't any computer platforms. Simply because
as the Ref I wasn't at the time into computers at all. The subject was
never a point.

 However now I find that there were/are hundreds of computer platcorms in
the world. not counting the versions of several of them. What would this
mean to the TU?

 As some have written about the great beast Gates. I thought that a user
of a minority system could have a few points to add. I mean just because a
new system is forced upon the public. Doesn't magically make all computer
users have it on their desks.

 Taking a clue about the difficulties in file work betwen a windrone any
version and the Commodore. I have been making notes on a run for my
upcoming rebirth Traveller game. Team finds a "disk" that contains the
secret information. but it is not compatible with what they have on the
ship. Now how do they read the information with out destroying the
contents. A fact that I have heard about in older windrone systems being
copied to newer systems. But point is that Idon'T think in Traveller there
is a mega corp making 100% of the computers and all the Os for the
software. I would propose that there are many smaller companies making
software and computers using their own systems. As in the 80s in this
world. Increase that to the tech levels of the worlds, non impperial
worlds with their own standards and there is a situation. One that I am
not certain the Computer skill as written covers in CT.

 As a simple example to this, say I write a file in geoWrite/Whels on my
Commodore. Add to that a GeoPaint file of a map. Send this to someone that
uses a windrone machine. Say this is done online. Any one tapping the line
would collect the file. but unless they have the same equipment as I do,
then it is a bummer to read. BTW: that also includes the fonts. As the
GeoWrite/Whels uses IIRC VLIR a form of image rather than ascii or pet
ascii codes for the charcters. The map would be a lage image file.

 Now I do know that there is a file called "gwimport.exe" created by
maurice Randall that will allow a windrone user to read the base ascii of
the GeoWrite file. It is a Pd one and i have a copy on my BBS. There is
also one for the Amiga called "gwimport.lha" That also is on my BBS. Yet
the file is not one that the majority of useers would have in their tools
disks. Oh FWIW the C= has tools to read the text files in IIRC ascii from
the 1.44 formatted disks. This tool is a german one called "GeoDos".

 As you can see the Ref could install the ability for tools/files to be
about for the higher level computer skilled character to open files from
other platforms.

 Naturally I suspect that the more computer savy members will have more to
say on the subject of cross platform work. Including older editions of
systems. This is just to stimulate the concept of computers not being
unified in the Thrid imperium.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F210WagewMS59IvqvIy000169c3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4237A.16506.A62A44@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 6:18, Sam D wrote:

> But as to your basic point that an M1 gets better accuracy than an
> M16A1, as far as issue weapons I would not be too sure.  The M16's
> action probably gives better accuracy.

My experience with the M16A1 and the M1 (though only one sample of it), 
both unmodified from issue, both using military ball, was that their 
accuracy at 100m was similar, though the M1's better trigger made it 
easier to get the best from the rifle consistently. At 300m the M1 
grouped better in all but very still conditions because the heavier 
bullet wasn't pushed around as much by the wind.

> Also, the M1's wood stock is not so great when you do a lot of firing.

I'd be more concerned about the relatively light barrel, actually.

> The M16 has much less recoil.

Now this you do notice.

> On the other hand, the M16 is lousy if you are using a
> sling (because the sling connects to the front sight which is
> connected directly to the barrel) and it has a very thin barrel.

It's lousy if you use the fore-end, full-stop.

> I bet the M16A2, with the heavy barrel, does better than the Garand
> though. 

The barrel's not thick all the way, though.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CB4251C.2440.AC8C18@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 10:44, Megan Robertson wrote:

> Insurance companies have been in the business of ripping clients off
> since they began, and I doubt they'll change... 
> 
> However, they do often state preconditions, as well as having
> 'weasel' clauses in the contract. When I took out household
> insurance a while back I had to upgrade the front door lock and they
> wanted me to get a burglar alarm until I told them I kept a Doberman
> pinscher :-) 

When I took out insuarance they wanted to put a note to the effect that 
I lived in a high burglary area, and had no alarm. They said that if I 
installed one they'd have to come round and check that this was so. 
They declined to come and check out the quality of the two bull 
terriers, though (and still put the rider in, bastards).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:35:30PM -0400
Message-ID: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 14:56, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Yup.  Shakespeare's copy rights long ago expired--yet there's still a
> market in them.  And there's still a market in plays, despite the fact
> that, AFAICT, no-one's managed to do any better since.

Shakepear didn't have any copyrights on his work - they didn't exist at 
that time. 

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F164o8C7wyfwjHNuQuN000048cd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4295B.22483.BD2072@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 20:59, Sam D wrote:

> Of course it depends on what you are doing.  Would you arm an entire
> army with Senderos?  It is not exactly the ideal close-quarters
> weapon.  Sure, the bolt gun would be superior to an M16 in the
> specific scenario you mention, but that does not necessarily make it
> superior in all situations.  The M16A2 is a classic Jack of all
> Trades weapon.  Capable of aimed fire out to 500 yards, most
> effective at under 200 yards, which (they say) is where most
> infantry combat takes place.  While the M16 may have rang limits, it
> is supported by a variety of longer range weapons.  I think the
> army, when adopting the M16, correctly decided that there is a real
> limit to how far the average infantryman can shoot effectively, and
> adopted a weapon that is optimized for that range.  The longer range
> stuff is the responsiblity of the supporting weapons (which you left
> out of your sniper scenario). 

For what you're talking about the M16 is more accurate than you need, 
and there are better weapons out there for this sort of work - like the 
AK-47 (though for westerners you'd want to lengthen the stock).
 
> On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off
> some M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and
> issuing them at the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max
> 500 yards?) and sniper (800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the
> guy with the M14 the "designated marksman" or something like that. 
> The guy who wrote the article I read did not like the idea, because
> of the the difficulties associated with the accurized M14s as stated
> above and standardization issues, but from what I understand these
> were deployed to Afghanistan so we should be getting reports soon. 

I'm not convinced that these are that big and issue. Every time you 
deploy the weapon should be sighted in first, and I never noticed any 
issues with bedding in my M1. Besides unless there are serious problems 
with this the better trigger will, IME, work in the M1's favour. As the 
M14 (AFAIK) didn't have any significant changes in it trigger (aside 
from the full-auto option) it should have a similar advantage, 
especially over an issue M16A2's trigger.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204092104.DSD06042@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB42A0A.17821.BFCECC@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 17:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Leonard Erickson asks
> >
> >"the rifle"?
> 
> Remington 700 Police DM, in .308. (Comes with HS Precision 
> stock with integral aluminum bedding block). Action 
> reworked/firing pin replaced with titanium pin, barrel 
> replaced with heavy contour Douglas Premium Match barrel, 
> Timney trigger, Leupold Mark V M3 10x scope with mil-dot 
> reticle, NEAR one-piece scope base optimized to get the most 
> elevation adjustement out of the scope, Vortex flash 
> suppressor, bipod, Simrad KN-250 GEN III night vision with 
> adapter to fit over Leupold Mark V.
> 
> Some were frightened just by seeing it, some by going to the 
> range with me and *seeing* it.

Sounds cool. What sort of groups do you get with it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:04:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:04:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D8A503.38070%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB42A0A.7930.BFCE18@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 14:02, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/7/02 3:05 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth
> > for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and
> > for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females
> > it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing.
> > Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how
> > old the data is.
> 
> I just looked at my spreadsheets and see that the thickness I used was
> actually 25 cm.

Cool. You had me thinking that everyone in the US was barrel chested 
for a moment there. :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204072135.DON00704@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.161536.4M2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> laning asks
>>
>>Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread, 
>>mentioning the ability of various Traveller races to cope 
>>with recoil, I should have also mentioned battle dress.  
>>That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more recoil.  But 
>>how much?
>
> Good question.  I've always wondered about this, because if 
> you could carry large weapons and handle high recoil, you 
> would have a semi-auto rifle that fired high velocity 20mm 
> (not low velocity 20mm like the OICW).
>
> 20mm californium rounds, that is.  The one part of Striker I 
> really liked.  Hit someone in battledress and watch the 
> little mushroom cloud.

Consider a "heavy weapon" for a K'kree. Something that "braces" against
the breastbone. I daresay that 20mm wouldn't be out of the question.

I recall some SF race that was built along the lines of the larger
terran ursines (Kodiaks, Polar bears, that sort of thing). A rifle for
one of *them* was a light anti-tank weapon for a human. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020409220409.8A29027AB5@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020409165807.00a496c0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 11:24:10 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> > To some extent, this is probably because I was never acclimated to them as
> > a youth, through hunting or whatever.  But I am similarly nervous around
> > anything that can cause death or serious injury, even/especially by
> > accident or negligence.
>
>Knives, chainsaw, cars, hammers, baseball bats....

If any of those appear likely to be used in anger or recklessly, yes.

> > There's also the "with great power comes great responsibility" angle.
> > I do not want or need the power to maim or kill another human being,
> > or the responsibility that necessarily comes with it.
>
>I take it that you don't drive then.
>
>Seriously. a car is a deadlier weapon than most guns.

I suspect you meant this rhetorically, but actually, I don't.  (My family 
was not in a position, when I was at the appropriate age, to afford the 
insurance premiums for a young driver.)  As I live in a bicycle-friendly 
city, I've never really bothered to learn since then.

As a bike rider, I'm quite aware of the potential deadliness of a ton-plus 
of metal moving at 30+ miles per hour.  Perhaps moreso than many drivers.

> > It's a lot harder to kill someone with a jacket.  Definitely not
> > impossible, but jackets are not primarily designed to apply deadly
> > force.  A firearm is, and I grant them all the respect they are due
> > as a result.
>
>Knives are primarily designed to cut flesh. It's all in how you use a
>tool.

But to claim that all tools are equally fearsome (or inoffensive), 
depending solely on the motive of the operator, is a facile 
generalization.  I am much more likely to be cautious/respectful/afraid of 
a loaded firearm than of a manila folder, if only because the potential 
injury (death or maiming vs. paper cut) is so obviously unequal.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV44bffoJpHq2XMx250001843b@hotmail.com>

Starship Insurance - Theft and Casualty - Freight and Cargo

Freight - Anything of value aboard a ship which belongs to another and is
being transported to a specific destination for a fee.  Insurance here is a
fairly simple matter, the shipper determines if they want to purchase
freight insurance.

Perhaps one or more crewmembers are qualified to write freight insurance
policies using the ships theft and casualty insurer as a kind of
super-carrier.  In addition or instead, the shipper could take out a freight
policy from a third party local insurer.  The premium would be a one time up
front payment for each shipment, and the payout would be an agreed upon
amount.  The ration of premium to payout would depend on risk conditions for
the trip (piracy, hazards, distance of travel.)

Cargo - Anything of value aboard a ship that belongs to the insured that is
not part of ships inventory.  It would be unlikely that cargo would be
covered under the ships theft and casualty policy.  In case of a claim of
theft, it would be too difficult to determine what the cargo really was, and
a problem to determine its value.  As the insurance company, do you payout
the value of the cargo at its loading point? Its value at its ultimate
destination? Its value at the nearest inhabited worls at the time of loss?
Its value at the insurance comapnies regional office at the subsector
capital?  Its value at insurance company headquarters on Capitol?  Insurance
company answer:  whichever is the lowest value. <g>

For these reasons I think you would see cargo insured in the same way as
freight.

Starports would tend to collect insurance agency offices in the same way
jails collect bail bond offices.  Many, especially on smaller worlds, would
probably be independent agents writing policies from a number of companies,
using whichever can best suit their customers needs.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:30:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:30:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020409220408.0118927AB3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002101c1e027$4452ada0$3cb18b90@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> > The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
> > Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
> > million or more - far greater than the examples given above.
>
> The camps didn't just kill Jews. Add in the homosexuals and gypsies and
> you get more than 10 million.

And all the others that found their way into them...

But even so, this, at most, might put the number higher than WWI.  The
Taiping Rebellion and WWII are still way ahead.

It also doesn't help that the camps were intimately associated with WWII,
and not really a distinct phenomenon.

You seem to be fairly consistently a couple of days behind on the list, BTW.
Are you just behind, or is it something to do with the exotic 19th Century
computers you use?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:31:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:31:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name things
References: <20020409184310.F206027A50@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002201c1e027$47ec4f20$3cb18b90@computer>

> From: "Hughes, Michael"
> Star Wars Name =
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born.

It gives some ugly consonant clusters.  Positively Zhodani in some cases.

I'm kind of getting used to the "br" in "Alabr", though.  It's obviously
pronounced like a shivering sound.  This isn't any more difficult than the
Chinese/Vietnamese "ng".  I might add a bit of emphasis to the "la", as it
makes pronouncing the "br" a bit easier.  So:  Al-la-br, rather than
Al-e-<mumble>.

I was just thinking what Doug Berry's first name would be:  Doube.  <Sings:
"Doube-doube-dou" with a Penguin accent.>  Yeah, that works.

Loren's would be a little sad:  Lorwi.  It sounds like he has a lisp.

Alabr Sucha
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ACQ and GT
Message-ID: <3CB4366A.11648.F02634@localhost>

A while back someone (was it you Doug) said they were using ACQ with 
GT. It's occurred to me to try this out too, and I was wondering how 
you dealt with the rule for spending AP for bonuses to skills, 
especially the limit for aiming (no more than 3xskill level). The 
obvious limit for this last would be the lower of the character's skill 
(in GT terms) or weapon Acc, but I was wondering how others dealt with 
this.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 19:09:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 18:09:10 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8D51C82.37945%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20409.174638.4l4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/6/02 8:42 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
>>> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
>>> build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.
>> 
>> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
>> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.
>
> ??
>
> Why permanent magnets.  A rialgun doesn't use magnetic fields in the manner
> of a coil gun.  We just have two parallel rails and the armature
> (projectile).  We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
> in the loop and acting on the armature.

There's a vertical magnetic field involved. Without it, you aren't
going to get nearly as high a velocity. 

Vertical magnetic field + sideways current flow -> forward motion. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 19:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 18:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20409.174638.4l4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D8E360.381D0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 6:46 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>>> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
>>> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.
>> 
>> ??
>> 
>> Why permanent magnets.  A rialgun doesn't use magnetic fields in the manner
>> of a coil gun.  We just have two parallel rails and the armature
>> (projectile).  We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
>> in the loop and acting on the armature.
> 
> There's a vertical magnetic field involved. Without it, you aren't
> going to get nearly as high a velocity.
> 
> Vertical magnetic field + sideways current flow -> forward motion.

I grabbed this of railgun.org:

Why are there no magnets above and below the rails to supplement the induced
field? - 
The induced field in a reasonable railgun is of a field strength on the
order of ~1 Tesla or more. A one Tesla electromagnet would be the size of a
Volkswagon and would probably need to be superconducting. [snip]
Additionally, the power for these extra magnets would either require more
capacitors or would be placed in series with the rails, adding unwanted
resistance and inductance to the circuit.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020410085426.A2419@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 10, 2002 08:54:26 AM
Message-ID: <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > Anyway, off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to
> > make this work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the
> > square-root of the inertial suppression factor.
> 
> If you're directly altering the strength of the interaction, the
> strength should drop off exactly in line with the mass reduction.  The
> square-root factor was when altering the *charge*.

Gah! I really should have taken that high school physics class.
 
> You should likewise reduce the strength of the strong and weak forces.

Okay... so I guess we need to suppose that all these forces get dropped
by the same factor.

> Now, just Planck's constant to deal with :)

Okay... I'm totally clueless, but:
E=hv, where h = planck's constant and v = frequency
(note: i have no idea what i'm taking about)
in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is that
if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we would prefer
that neither of them drop.

> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
> well.

Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
energy level of an electron in an atom?

I've heard that the atomic nucleus is held together by the interplay
between the strong and weak forces, the strong force keeping the
positively charged protons together while the weak force tries to
rip them apart. I suppose that since this idea of taming the quantum
foam should reduce both forces equally, the stability of the
nucleus would be uneffected (the effects of the strong & weak force
reductions should cancel out).

However, I'm not sure how to handle the problem of electrons, which
you mention above. But I'll try to tackle it anyway, so what follows
it totally off the cuff. I'm guessing that the electromagnetic force
keeps electrons attracted to the positively charged atomic nucleus
and repulsed by each other, hence accounting for their movements
(of course, this probably falls apart at some level, but bear with
me). Well, I'm just guessing here, but if their movements are determined
by the repulsive & attractive effects of the same force (electromagnetic),
then reducing that force should have no net effect, as reduction in
repulsion will be perfectly offset by the reduction in attraction.
In short, and I'm no physics major, so correct me if I'm wrong,
once again what I would expect is that these changes cancel out,
resulting in there being no need to change Planck's constant.

Am I totally wrong here? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17936@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Hey lads,

I am offering Mikey Trav (modified MT) up for re-assessment by my gaming
group and was wondering if some nice kind TMLers would test the Traveller
Generation component for me. 

Essentially it is a combo of Mega Trav and Chaosium generation mechanics
(before it was D20ed). It looks a little foreboding at first but the core
rules are only 10 pages long. 

Any comments/suggestions gratefully received. Ludowick, if you're still
TMLing I'd love it if you could have a look as well. Ditto Hyphen. 

If you are interested please contact me off list. 


PBEM:

I am thinking about running a PBEM D&D game for a friend. Does anyone know
of a How To website out there for running PBEM RPG sessions?

Thanks in advance, 

Mikey



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:54:19AM +1200
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net> <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:54:19AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Shakepear didn't have any copyrights on his work - they didn't exist at 
> that time. 

That was indeed part of my point...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
               --Socrates, c.  5th century BC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:24:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:24:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F217LltyKF5Q6JVW8s20001d6e3@hotmail.com>

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

In a flight on Whipsnadian hyperbole, I typed "... the 'brutally pragmatic' 
Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt."

     "Sorry, not *possible*. Not even the third Imperium has *that* kind of 
firepower."


Mr. Erickson,

     Yes, as your other posts illustrated, a planet is a VERY BIG place!  
Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the 
conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.

In another bout of hyperbole, I posted, "... the Ziro Sirka would have, 
could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it glowed."

     "Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
Millions, hundreds of millions."

     But of course.  Would you care to hazard a guess just what sort of 
firepower it would have taken for the ZS to remove Terra as a threat?  How 
many warheads, kinetic strikes, spinal mount hits, and plain old iron bombs 
would it have taken "de-industrialize" Terra?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:26:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:26:46 2002
Subject: [TML] ACQ and GT
In-Reply-To: <3CB4366A.11648.F02634@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409191152.009ffe70@mindspring.com>

At 12:56 PM 4/10/02 +1200, you wrote:
>A while back someone (was it you Doug) said they were using ACQ with
>GT. It's occurred to me to try this out too, and I was wondering how
>you dealt with the rule for spending AP for bonuses to skills,
>especially the limit for aiming (no more than 3xskill level). The
>obvious limit for this last would be the lower of the character's skill
>(in GT terms) or weapon Acc, but I was wondering how others dealt with
>this.

Wasn't me.. and I can't remember who did it.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204100230.DSP00729@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
>Sounds cool. What sort of groups do you get with it?
>

1/4 MOA.  But I have to do my work.  This is also where I 
stopped shooting from a bench, and did all of my work in the 
prone using either sling or bipod.  Laying on the ground is 
where this sort of rifle would be used, so I shot from the 
ground.

I get an acceptable score on the Rifle Ten, which is probably 
a more practical test of rifle skills, but you could probably 
shoot the same with an iron-sighted M1 Garand or even an M-
16.  Most practical rifle tests do not involve long range 
shooting, and I view most "long range" marksmanship courses 
of fire as too artificial to really measure much.  Aside from 
that, you can "practice" the test itself.

Maybe what we should all do is practice for the Kenyathalon, 
which is probably a fine test of field skill with a rifle.

I gave the rifle to the local SWAT team.  I think they're 
going to build a memorial to me.  Not the Simrad, however. 
But, it's been over a year now, and I'm reworking another 
Remington, but this time in .300 Win Mag.  In this case, 
however, I plan on sticking to 6x scopes, and shoot from my 
hind legs.

Why give it away?  Well, if you're getting a divorce, it pays 
not to have any firearms around, even if you've never made a 
threat.  The opposing lawyer is ready to make something out 
of it, even the mere presence, especially here in the 
People's Republic of Maryland.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [Fwd: FYI: Claim for Dentus/Regina]
Message-ID: <3CB3A651.5FE32F71@premier.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Here's a Landgrab claim from a JTAS subscriber:



-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.
--------------1C1D34570AB70063DD2A1374
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Return-Path: <itsjustabunny@netzero.net>
Received: from mail7.wlv.netzero.net (mail7.wlv.netzero.net [209.247.163.57])
	by premier1.premier.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id g3A2a2903418
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Message-ID: <001801c1e038$d60189e0$7856f4d1@003905747>
From: "Videll" <itsjustabunny@netzero.net>
To: <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: FYI: Claim for Dentus/Regina
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 22:38:41 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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FYI. Thanks, Greg.

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Videll=20
To: landgrab@downport.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 10:20 PM
Subject: Claim for Dentus/Regina


I'd like to claim Dentus/Regina as part of the 'land grab' and ask to =
have the information I develop be hosted at Downport.com. Please let me =
know what additional information you require. Thanks a lot, Greg Videll.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>FYI. Thanks, Greg.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:itsjustabunny@netzero.net"=20
title=3Ditsjustabunny@netzero.net>Videll</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:landgrab@downport.com"=20
title=3Dlandgrab@downport.com>landgrab@downport.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 09, 2002 10:20 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Claim for Dentus/Regina</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'd like to claim Dentus/Regina as part =
of the=20
'land grab' and ask to have the information I develop be hosted at =
Downport.com.=20
Please let me know what additional information you require. Thanks a =
lot, Greg=20
Videll.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1E017.4C59AEA0--



--------------1C1D34570AB70063DD2A1374--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:44:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:44:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20409.114950.6a1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409223004.02132f28@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:49 PM 4/9/2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>You are forgetting that with nuclear dampers, you can clean up the
>radioactive contamination *easily*. and unless truly amazing numbers of
>weapons are used, the actual *blast* damage will easily disappear on
>something as big as a planet.

This is a good point.  In fact, it's quite possible that the Imperial Corps 
of Engineers (or whatever the Traveller TL-15 equivalent of the present-day 
Army Corps of Engineers) does civil engineering and terraforming with 
nuclear weapons and meson artillery.  A starship armed with a large meson 
gun and a variety of nuclear missiles in bays, and supported by 
decontamination ships equipped with powerful nuclear dampers could - for 
example - clear and level an area of solid rock for a starport or carve out 
a deep water harbor on a coastline in a matter of hours, or dig a sea-level 
canal across Central America in a matter of days (and most of these times 
would be for detail work and decontamination).

>Which reminds me. Some day I need to sit down and try to figure out what 
>would be required to produce a "burned off" world such as appears in some 
>of Norton's books.

While I'm not familiar with Norton's "burned off" worlds (I don't tend to 
read Norton), the easiest way to completely clobber a planet with Traveller 
technology is to drop a few big rocks on it.  With Traveller maneuver 
drives, it should be relatively easy to nudge a number of asteroids in the 
100,000dton or bigger class into an intercept trajectory with a planet, and 
that should be all that's needed.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <000501c1df81$7b919c00$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20409.193923.3g6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>      "While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I
>> don't see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the
>> trick is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it."
>>
>>      Yes, seeding the star with enough tungsten and aiming correctly will
>> take time.  Perhaps the Darrians use multiple probes to increase their
>> chances?
>
> That is a pretty reasonable idea.  I figure they would be jumping in with
> a fleet, not just a squadron.  They probably have a couple of "probe" ships
> and multiple ships that can deliver the meson trigger.
>
> Plus, I also figure they would be dependent on relative surprise.  If they
> face a coordinated defense that is expecting them, they are probably best
> advised to try a different system in a week or so.

Why? 

They can jump in *anywhere* in the system that's outside the *stellar*
100D limit.

Say the two "beam" ships jump in roughly 120 degrees "ahead" and
"behind" the mainworld in it's orbit. And the "probe" ship jumps in
somewhere well to sunward of the mainworld.

Launch the probe, Fire the beams after it reaches the star. Jump out
after a few hours. 

Short of sheer luck, the system defense forces won't get within light
*minutes* of any of the Darrian ships.

That's what makes it such a scary weapon. You have to defend the entire
*system*, not just the planets. And you *can't*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:28 PM 4/9/2002, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
>Team finds a "disk" that contains the secret information. but it is not 
>compatible with what they have on the ship. Now how do they read the 
>information with out destroying the contents.

Good scenario hook.

IMTU, there are Imperial standards for data storage and media, mainly 
promulgated by the Scout Service.  This is not a standard in the sense that 
all equipment is required by law to support it, but rather a de-facto 
standard in the sense that the IISS X-boat system uses a specific set of 
formats to transfer messages.

It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the 
Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of 
pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding 
and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of 
languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate, 
lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications 
protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of 
getting messages into and out of the system.

Couple this with standards (IMTU published by the Travelers' Aid Society) 
for ship-to-ship and ship-to-planet communications (again via text, image, 
audio, video, and holo) and exchange of navigational data of various types, 
and you have a fairly robust infrastructure for communicating - should you 
desire to do so.

The net result should be similar to the modern Internet - any computer 
manufacturer who hopes to have any significant market share at all ensures 
that their equipment can read and write the standard media and formats, and 
can speak the standard protocols.  This doesn't prevent the manufacturers 
from building machines that also support proprietary encoding and 
formats.  However, if you're stuck with a data chip in one of those 
formats, your best bet is to try to find the machine that wrote it, and 
copy the data to a standard format.

In general, things Just Work, unless I (as referee) have a plot reason that 
they don't.  When they don't, When things do Just Work, no Computer skill 
is needed to read a file off of a data cartridge, or send an email message 
via X-boat.  Computer skill covers the ability to figure out what is wrong 
when things don't Just Work, and either write a program to fix the problem 
(or find a tool or other work around to the problem).  I would tend to say 
things like "you've got an Imperial standard data chip here, and on it is 
..." or "This data cartridge is proprietary to a LSP Model 11MP system - 
you need to find one of those to read what's on it.".


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:21:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:21:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:28 PM 4/9/2002, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
>Team finds a "disk" that contains the secret information. but it is not 
>compatible with what they have on the ship. Now how do they read the 
>information with out destroying the contents.

Good scenario hook.

IMTU, there are Imperial standards for data storage and media, mainly 
promulgated by the Scout Service.  This is not a standard in the sense that 
all equipment is required by law to support it, but rather a de-facto 
standard in the sense that the IISS X-boat system uses a specific set of 
formats to transfer messages.

It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the 
Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of 
pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding 
and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of 
languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate, 
lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications 
protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of 
getting messages into and out of the system.

Couple this with standards (IMTU published by the Travelers' Aid Society) 
for ship-to-ship and ship-to-planet communications (again via text, image, 
audio, video, and holo) and exchange of navigational data of various types, 
and you have a fairly robust infrastructure for communicating - should you 
desire to do so.

The net result should be similar to the modern Internet - any computer 
manufacturer who hopes to have any significant market share at all ensures 
that their equipment can read and write the standard media and formats, and 
can speak the standard protocols.  This doesn't prevent the manufacturers 
from building machines that also support proprietary encoding and 
formats.  However, if you're stuck with a data chip in one of those 
formats, your best bet is to try to find the machine that wrote it, and 
copy the data to a standard format.

In general, things Just Work, unless I (as referee) have a plot reason that 
they don't.  When they don't, When things do Just Work, no Computer skill 
is needed to read a file off of a data cartridge, or send an email message 
via X-boat.  Computer skill covers the ability to figure out what is wrong 
when things don't Just Work, and either write a program to fix the problem 
(or find a tool or other work around to the problem).  I would tend to say 
things like "you've got an Imperial standard data chip here, and on it is 
..." or "This data cartridge is proprietary to a LSP Model 11MP system - 
you need to find one of those to read what's on it.".


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <14d.c0033de.29e50df4@aol.com>

--part1_14d.c0033de.29e50df4_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
>for first name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
>town where you were born. 
>

   Okay, I'm game. Let's see...

   Why yumpin' yimminy, looks like I'm Kenmu Ersan :)

  -Ken-


--part1_14d.c0033de.29e50df4_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
<BR>&gt;for first name
<BR>&gt; 
<BR>&gt; First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
<BR>&gt;town where you were born. 
<BR>&gt;
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Okay, I'm game. Let's see...
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Why yumpin' yimminy, looks like I'm Kenmu Ersan :)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_14d.c0033de.29e50df4_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 22:10:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Tue Apr  9 21:10:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>

> Star Wars Name =
>
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born.

Hmm..  Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
Using your equation, I'd be:  Shasr Baden

But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

Which for me yields:  Anemet Slabar
I dunno, they're both kinda cool.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Your lack of Pants disturbs me
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 22:19:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr  9 21:19:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <20020410.001437.-391371.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Star Wars Name =
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first 
> name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town 
> where you were born. 

Perho Yaneu?

(yuck!)


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 22:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr  9 21:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8d974f770c0@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:08 PM +1200 4/9/02, Frank Pitt wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote :
>>  While I haven't followed the thread far enough to
>>  follow all the  issues, I think there is a point
>>  to be made here.  One can't just assume insurance
>>  company will force any security measure you can
>>  think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be
>>  unpopular and, unless the savings in costs is
>>  _significant_, there  won't be enough
>>  of a change in premiums to compensate.
>
>The insurance comany won't change it's premiums.
>
>There will just be a clause in the contract, similar to the one
>that exists with most vehicle insurance now, that if your vehicle
>was not warranted at the time of the accident, or it was being
>driven by an unlicensed driver, they won't pay out.
>
>They won't even bother inspecting (or telling you about it) until
>_after_ you make the claim. Then they will ask you for your
>warrant and masters ticket, and if you can't produce them they
>will refuse to pay out.


But we are talking about security measure that are intrusive enough 
that the are a hassle to the day to day operation of a ship.  Some 
people are going to know about them.  Unless they are important 
enough to make a _significant_ change in costs, another company will 
be able to draw at least some customers away buy not having such 
intrusive requirements.

>The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
>required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
>may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
>starport will do it (for important safety and financial reasons,
>would you want an unwarranted vehicle approaching an extremely
>expensve space station?), there won't be any real choice except
>for the captains to take the risk of not doing it and not go to
>the better starports

The presumption is that every insurance company will have such 
requirements.  That requires that you show that such requirements 
make a significant difference in insurance costs.  Otherwise 
insurance companies have no reason to push unpopular requirements.

However, if you can show that such requirements are needed to keep 
theft down to a reasonable level, then you don't need to invoke 
insurance companies requiring it.

In the end, invoking insurance companies is not a way of justifying 
regulations that don't have other basis.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:01:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:01:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409141022.A18068@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410003144.027e33e0@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:10 PM 4/9/02 -0600, you wrote:
>But that doesn't matter.  Free software is not about sticking it to
>Bill Gates; it's about free software.  Gaming is not about sticking to
>to gaming companies (they're generally good people); it's about
>gaming.

Okay.  But my original point that you were responding to was that there are 
unintended consequences regardless of original motives.  I want to make 
sure people who may not be aware of those consequences are informed.

> > I don't know if your "But that is...your problem" remark was
> > intended to sound quite as callous as it came across to me in print,
> > but that's just me, and as you say that's my problem.
>
>I didn't mean it to sound callous, more as a statement of fact.

Okay.  From reading your various emails, I am quite sure you're a nice 
person.  I guess it still sounds a bit callous to me, although it is 
motivated from a concern for the general welfare of all humans everywhere, 
which is certainly not callous.  It is also clear you've spent more than a 
casual amount of time in life pondering such things and you're determined 
not to be a cruel person or any such thing.  I respect you, or anyone else 
who takes a similar position, for taking that position.

I just don't want the script kiddie types piling on the bandwagon.  Or the 
hordes of people who do something because "it's cool".

Respectable Middle-Aged Lady:  "Young man, what are you rebelling against?"
Brando's character:  "Whattaya got?"

But again, people we know (even if only through this mailing list) will be 
directly hurt by the success of competing products.  And the difference is 
those people do this for a living and the competing product at issue would 
be done for fun as a hobby by people with deeper pockets.  Which side of 
that choice is taken by Socrates or Aristotle is only of intellectual 
interest to me.  I just ask myself if that's the result I want.


>Not that I'd directly compete with any of the above.  I write
>software, not supplements.  And yes, my hope is for my GPLed
>Traveller-compatible software to enable a lot of other programmers to
>write more Traveller-compatible software.  And it doesn't bother me
>that this will make it more difficult for others to profit from
>proprietary Traveller-compatible software.  Why should it, any more
>than it bothers Stephen King that he's made it more difficult for
>other to profit from horror novels?

Huh?  I was unaware of your efforts in this area, and of travlib.  Will 
wield the legendary Sword of Google and get to work on that once email is 
caught up, the cats are fed, and I've had a night's sleep.  Please feel 
free to beat me repeatedly around the head and shoulder area with a 
badminton racquet until I follow up on that if it slips.  :->

Why should it bother Stephen King?  Because he should have an ounce of 
sympathy for all the other people out there who are his sisters and 
brothers in spirit: they are compelled to write and be read by others.  Why 
should he have an ounce of sympathy for anyone, especially strangers?  No 
special reason.  It isn't the law, I don't think he will go to heaven or 
hell based on that or anything.  I just think he should.

Why should it bother you?  That's different.  You aren't personally 
dominating an industry so much that other people are being squeezed 
out.  It shouldn't bother you in the least.

I'm not trying to quash all self publishers, hobby publishers, or 
open-source creation of anything.  I'm not trying to call it unethical.  My 
message is that there will be unintended consequences that are undoable if 
open source RPG design really takes off.  And you can't go back home 
again.  People should go ahead and make their own decisions.  Adult, 
responsible, informed decisions.

I'd love to see open source game design of different kinds of games become 
a healthy and thriving activity.  I'd also love to see the people who do 
good work, but can only do so when they are able to devote full time 
attention to it, be healthy and thriving.  There is the forest.  Somewhere 
on its other side is a happy meadow where both things are happening.  There 
are many paths through the forest, and many of those paths go somewhere 
else besides that happy meadow.  As one of my old characters (a really 
reprehensible character) used to say, "Ah'll draw us a map."  That is, I'd 
_like_ to have a map before entering that forest.

--Laning
Q:  What's the best way to make a small fortune in the wargaming industry?
A:  Start with a large one.
      -An old but true saw.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:56 PM 4/9/02 -0600, you wrote:
> > We really should pay someone like Loren or Doug a LOT more money for
> > their work.
>
>Well, it's all a matter of what the market will bear.  Software pays
>better because there's more demand.  RPGs pay worse because there's
>not as much.

The above statement tends to be true but the real world is not as simple 
nor as true as that.  It only becomes a matter of what the market will bear 
when the market is huge and liquid and the product is 'commoditized' as 
they call it.  And even then are problems with preventing marketplace 
manipulation.  I do not think that our free market system is truly free nor 
is it perfectly efficient.  Prices for lots of things fluctuate wildly due 
to [long string of complex and often silly reasons] rather than any 
fundamental economic cause.  I do not believe in placing blind faith in our 
so-called capitalism (which isn't) any more than I would place blind faith 
in the former Soviet so-called communism (which wasn't).  Now that was some 
good music (Blind Faith, that is).


> > What I would be willing to pay for is a more well-thought out
> > game.
>
>That's part of the value add one gets with a professional editor.
>Most people cannot properly edit their own work.  I wonder if it might
>not be possible for there to be money in taking freely-available work
>and compiling it onto one large work.  Slap a compilation copyright
>over the whole thing (to prevent others from just grabbing it up), but
>the individual pieces are still free for anyone.

There's probably some money, but even less than in being a line editor 
now.  It would certainly be a useful contribution.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:12:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>
References: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
 <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
 <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl used the sig:
>Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
>food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
>parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
>they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
>                --Socrates, c.  5th century BC

One of several great sigs you employ, Mister Robert Uhl.  :->

Socrates really didn't much like people who he couldn't keep under his 
thumb, did he?  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:15:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:15:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <20020410051456.C94E127ABE@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/10/02 at 02:08 PM,  "Shane Slamet" <s.slamet@bom.gov.au> said:

>> Star Wars Name =
>>
>> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>>
>> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
>> were born.

>Hmm..  Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
>Using your equation, I'd be:  Shasr Baden

>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name First 3
>letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

>Which for me yields:  Anemet Slabar
>I dunno, they're both kinda cool.

Either way you have the same number of letters in every name. How
about...

First name: The first 1d6 letters of your first name + the first 1d6
letters of your last name.

Last name: The first 1d6 leters of your mother's maiden name + the
first 1d6 letter of the city where you were born.

Jamere Rit
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:26:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:26:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204092104.DSD06042@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011514.027e7ec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 05:04 PM 4/9/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Leonard Erickson asks
> >
> >"the rifle"?
>
>Remington 700 Police DM, in .308. (Comes with HS Precision
>stock with integral aluminum bedding block). Action
>reworked/firing pin replaced with titanium pin, barrel
>replaced with heavy contour Douglas Premium Match barrel,
>Timney trigger, Leupold Mark V M3 10x scope with mil-dot
>reticle, NEAR one-piece scope base optimized to get the most
>elevation adjustement out of the scope, Vortex flash
>suppressor, bipod, Simrad KN-250 GEN III night vision with
>adapter to fit over Leupold Mark V.
>
>Some were frightened just by seeing it, some by going to the
>range with me and *seeing* it.

So we're talking about people who are comfortable enough to go shooting at 
a rifle range, but want to politely form a covert vigilante gang to stop 
you from being around their place of work if you have a really nice target 
rifle.  People call me weird, but I think "people" need to look in the 
mirror sometimes.

--Laning
"A rifle is only a tool. It's a hard heart that kills." -Gunnery Sergeant 
Hartman in 'Full Metal Jacket' by Gustav Hasford, Michael Herr, and Stanley 
Kubrick


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:27:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:27:22 2002
Subject: [TML] When too much time occurs...
Message-ID: <3CB3CC38.F01EE8A9@mail.cswnet.com>

Dig out the Monopoly game...
...locate Vilani by Lonnie:

http://tribble.dreamhost.com/vilani.html

and convert those street names to vilani!!!

Baltic Avenue---Barikune Barik
Conneticut Avenue---Kaanerikuru Nekaan
Atlantic Avenue---Arukanirikune Rukanir
Boardwalk---Buriduurkibu 
[this one I fudged-stuck an "I" in for the last name"
Luxury Tax---Ukukashuriikasharu Kukashurii
Free Parking---Biriiginikira Mibirii
B&O Railroad---Baaduurukar Ibi&aa

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:34:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:34:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <14d.c0033de.29e50df4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEONGFAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Urk

Johlo Nornew no like

Grunt


> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
>for first name 
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
>town where you were born. 
> 

  Okay, I'm game. Let's see... 

  Why yumpin' yimminy, looks like I'm Kenmu Ersan :) 

 -Ken- 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:44:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:44:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:12:37AM -0400
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409234307.A19761@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:12:37AM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> The above statement tends to be true but the real world is not as simple 
> nor as true as that.

What I mean is that man, viewed as an organism, seems not to value RPG
line editors as highly as information architects (but, e.g., higher
than garbagemen).  That valuation has no moral meaning, of course.
It's just that there aren't enough people willing to pay enough to pay
line editors what IT people get.  Would _you_ pay $130 per supplement?

> I do not think that our free market system is truly free nor is it
> perfectly efficient.

Oh, it's certainly not free, which fact leads to numerous injustices
and inefficiencies.  But it's still a market.  _Every_ economy is a
market, no matter how it may try to disguise the fact.

> There's probably some money, but even less than in being a line editor 
> now.  It would certainly be a useful contribution.

Well, it's commonly accepted (among those who think about these
things) that the primary service provided by content providers is
filtering of the dregs.  The Web allowed every man to be a publisher.
And a million million screaming <blink> tags were born.

Filtering of the 5.99 billion morons in the world is an editor's job,
one that most do quite admirably.  Supporting that is a useful thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
           --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:14:40AM -0400
References: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost> <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net> <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost> <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409234739.B19761@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:14:40AM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> One of several great sigs you employ, Mister Robert Uhl.  :->

Thanks for the compliment.  I've rather a large amount of them, to
tell the truth.  I've 264, which are randomly assigned by a Perl
script attached to a named pipe.  Many, I'm afraid, are longer than
the so-called McQ limit (4 lines), but I don't particularly care; it's
a relic of a bygone era.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
This is why they complain--they don't _want_ to have brains.  Those lead
to thoughts, and thoughts cause only suffering.  Thus, by asking them to
think, you are inflicting the torments of the damned on the previously
blissfully ignorant.        --John Rowat, in alt.tech-support.recovery

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:54:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:54:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <200204092132.DSF01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410014708.027e3070@pop.wizard.net>

John T Kwon quoting and responding to Sam D:
> >I think most Marines can hit a torso sized target at 500
> >yards about 100% of the time.
>
>Marines yes, Army infantry, no way.  And that assumes that
>your enemy is standing in the open.  Most experienced
>soldiers go into the prone.  Once you're in the prone, the
>bolt action in the hands of a sniper has the advantage,
>because you can hit grapefruit-sized targets very reliably at
>300 to 400 yards, and most of the time at 500.  Take those
>same Marines and try to have them hit the grapefruit at 500.
>There's probably a Distinguished Marksman in there, isn't
>there?
I couldn't agree more.  I am a Marine who could hit consistently score 5s 
at 500 yards with iron sights, but getting that little grapefruit-sized 
circle is a much bigger challenge.  If I had stayed in the Corps, I think I 
would have continued improving at hitting those bullseyes but it would have 
taken some more years.  And then presbyopia and astigmatism afflicted my 
vision somewhat starting in my mid- to late-30s.  It would have taken years 
to get pretty damned good (for someone who isn't a sniper) and then there 
would have been a small window of quality before declining vision screwed 
that up.  Although it's entirely possible that most of my vision problems 
are related to going into computers during my 30s and spending _way_ too 
much time in front of monitors.



>The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my
>rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these,
>and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get
>him without losing half the team or more."

Apparently he forgot the correct tactical employment of smoke 
grenades.  And maybe his boys don't have those armored gunshields to hide 
behind.  Or if it really comes down to it, use a .50 cal or 20 mm on an APC 
belonging to a nearby Army or Marine unit.  Although I always wondered 
about using wire-guided ATGMs with a standoff spike for those kinds of 
guys, heh.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:56:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <20020409.225614.-2687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 00:14:54 -0500 "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
writes:
>
> 
> Either way you have the same number of letters in every name. How
> about...
> 
> First name: The first 1d6 letters of your first name + the first 1d6
> letters of your last name.
> 
> Last name: The first 1d6 leters of your mother's maiden name + the
> first 1d6 letter of the city where you were born.
> 
> Jamere Rit
> -- 

Oh, I like the options. though my original - Barst Cotor is cool.
Let's see - 5,3,4,1 - Ooops, there's only four letters in my first name.

= Barista Corrt

Not bad

Barst Cotor - Barbarian
Barista Corrt - Other - Barmaid


Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:02:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:02:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <20020410.001437.-391371.2.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204100809390.28175-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

> Star Wars Name =
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first 
> name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town 
> where you were born. 

Mikpa Auhel.

Hilarious...

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410003144.027e33e0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:02:24AM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020409141022.A18068@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020410003144.027e33e0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020410001141.C19761@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:02:24AM -0400, laning wrote:
>
> From reading your various emails, I am quite sure you're a nice
> person.

I'd like to think so, but I've no idea.  Can any man judge himself?

> I just don't want the script kiddie types piling on the bandwagon.  Or the 
> hordes of people who do something because "it's cool".

I'll agree there.  In many ways, popularity is the bane of any set of
ideas.  Witness the twits in computers, the twits in politics, the
twits in religion &c.  Computers, politics and religon are not
inherently twit-ful, but they are plagued by twits nonetheless.

> Huh?  I was unaware of your efforts in this area, and of travlib.

Travlib is a GPLed library intended to, eventually, model the entire
spectrum of the Traveller universe, from galxies to characters.  Right
now, it represents astronomical things only (galaxies, sectors,
subsectors, systems, stars, planets, belts and moons).  It's written
in C, using the gtk+ toolkit for object orientation, with Scheme
bindings using guile to enable easy scripting.

I'm currently working on two projects.  The first is the addition of
First In generation rules, with the code written in Scheme (which I
feel is uniquely suited to this sort of thing); eventually I will be
implementing CT rules as well, although internal data representation
will always be in GT terms, which are for most cases more granular.
The second project is travtrack, a GNOME application which will enable
the user to edit said data (and thus track his Traveller campaigns,
hence the name).  I've got a galaxy browser which is almost
functional...

The site is <http://travtrack.sf.net/>.  It's not over-nice, mostly
because there's not a whole lot to show yet.  My beta version of
travlib is done; travtrack is very much a work-in-progress.  The
application which comes with travlib is called travshell: it is a
Guile interpreter with travlib linked in by default.  This means that
you can write:

(define galaxy (trav-galaxy-new))
(trav-mapobject-set-name galaxy "My First Galaxy")
(define sector (trav-sector-new))
(trav-mapobject-set-name sector "A Beginner Sector")
(trav-mapobject-add-child galaxy sector)

And things like that.  Right now the library using an XML-like schema
for printing data to a file and reading it back, but I'm planning on a
Scheme special forms interface, so that one might write:

(trav-galaxy
#:name "My First Galaxy"
#:comments "The first galaxy I ever created"
  (trav-sector  #:name "A Beginner Sector")
  (trav-sector #:name "Another One"
    (trav-subsector)
    (trav-subsector)))

And so on.  As someone has said, XML is S-expressions with a painful
syntax.  But that will be a long while from now.

> Why should it bother Stephen King?  Because he should have an ounce
> of sympathy for all the other people out there who are his sisters
> and brothers in spirit: they are compelled to write and be read by
> others.

What I mean is that he has raised the standards of his profession
(personally, I loathe him and his work, but his was an example which
leapt to mind); the sympathy he should have for others less able than
he--and who have been harmed because the bar has so been raised--is
much the same sympathy that any of us has for any failure.  Sympathy,
yes.  Aid, certainly.  But no-one would ever say I write good horror
(not that I wish too): that's just a fact of life, in roughly the same
way that I will never win a race.

> Why should it bother you?  That's different.  You aren't personally 
> dominating an industry so much that other people are being squeezed 
> out.  It shouldn't bother you in the least.

Well, open source enables that sort of domination.  Linux Torvalds
wrote an OS.  Tanenbaum no longer, I think, sells many copies of
Minix.  Even the BSD projects are being relegated to the status of
footnote to history (unfairly, in many ways, but in just as many ways
it's their own fault).  It's deuced difficult to compete against free
software.  And by free I don't mean price; I mean freedom.

Regarding those who are threatened thereby, I can only say that I
don't make my living in software.  I'm a Unix system administrator; I
program in my free time.  I cannot do what I like (partially because
what I like includes freeing the product).  When I was younger I spit
chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it
sometime).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Interestingly, most Unix utilities have a command line option which will
cause the system to rip the user's legs off and beat them to death with
the soggy ends.  This is often the default behaviour.    --Bruce Murphy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F164o8C7wyfwjHNuQuN000048cd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410020404.027d89a0@pop.wizard.net>

At 08:59 PM 4/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off some 
>M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and issuing them at 
>the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max 500 yards?) and 
>sniper (800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the guy with the M14 the 
>"designated marksman" or something like that.  The guy who wrote the 
>article I read did not like the idea, because of the the difficulties 
>associated with the accurized M14s as stated above and standardization 
>issues, but from what I understand these were deployed to Afghanistan so 
>we should be getting reports soon.

Glad to hear we're doing that.  It's basically the latest variation on 
something we've at least theoretically been doing for many decades.  Each 
four-man fire team during my time in had one guy designated as the 'sniper' 
or 'marksman' or something.  Can't remember the proper term with any 
certainty.  The problem with that (during my time in) was that the position 
usually had more to do with seniority than marksmanship ability.

Ever since at least WW1, our tactical commanders have tried to concentrate 
a small unit of their best shooters to be available for various 
tasks.  Full-blown official snipers are scarce at even the regiment 
level.  So regiments, battalions, companies, and even platoons have tried 
to single out their most skilled guys for use in this regard.  There have 
been various times when these tactical efforts became a formal part of 
official TO&Es and doctrine.  Other times they were officially disapproved 
and commanding officers had to be more or less surreptitious and subversive 
to do this.  This long-term tendency is probably partly influenced by our 
old role (inherited directly from the British Royal Marines, so it goes 
back to more than two centuries) of providing snipers in the rigging aboard 
sailing ships.

These efforts by tactical commanders have often been mingled with efforts 
to create their own private "Life Guards" unit, if you will, and a recon 
capability.  Commanders like to have a reserve of best-quality troops to 
influence the battle with.  A major conflict within the Marine Corps since 
it is a fundamental axiom of our existence that all Marines are elite and 
none are more elite than others.  It was the major argument against the 
Marine Raider battalions (which were eliminated) and against the Force 
Recon battalions (which were eliminated or nearly so a dozen times in fifty 
years), and it doesn't look to be going away although Force Recon seems to 
be in pretty good health these days.  I have no problem with it and think 
it is a good thing.  I never noticed other Marines getting their feelings 
hurt over it either.  It seems to me more of a theological debate between 
passionate followers of different faiths than anything else.  Or possibly a 
fear that the competition among officers to get their "ticket punched" by 
an assignment to Force Recon was just too exclusive a competition.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:22:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:22:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F36GB9wIWXLU9778dvM000038ae@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022011.027e0130@pop.wizard.net>

At 09:18 PM 4/9/02 +0000, Sam D wrote:
 >>>
Did you guys see that a female teenage Marine won the national matches 
(with an M16) a few years ago?
<<<

OORAH!!


>The .223 is a fairly accurate round, on par with most cartridges.  The 308 
>is theoretically more accurate.  It is certainly more resistant to the 
>wind.  But as far as semi-auto platforms, there is nothing better than 
>Stoner's design.  Put a 308 in an M16 platform, like the AR-10 or SR-25, 
>and you get outstanding accuracy.

I've wondered for a long time about getting an AR-15 or similar chambered 
for .308.  How does it perform on full auto?  (I imagine it has issues with 
the barrel overheating more than a heavier weapon would.)  Rapid semi?  Is 
there even such an animal sold commercially?

Not that I have any actual use for such a thing.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D89BAB.38054%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408135946.02824dd0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>

At 01:22 PM 4/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
>It should be noted that analysis of casualties in the Vietnam war showed the
>5.56x45mm to be 11% more likely to produce a casualty (lethal) than
>7.62x51mm.  Of course the NVA and VC may have just dragged off all the
>bodies with 7.62 holes in them to confise us poor Americans.

Colt was probably paying them a bounty for the corpses with the big bullets 
in them.  Damned megacorps!


> > Including poorer
> > accuracy.
>
>What?!  The M-16 has consistently proved to have a smaller MOA than the M-14
>since adoption and up to the present day.

I am not equipped to wage a war of statistical analyses, and will 
abandon.  Even surrender, if I must.  But let the record show that I  trust 
statistical studies and proving grounds testing only so far.  Anecdotal 
evidence from actual field users of my acquaintance is not convincing (to 
me) for either side of the argument.

I also remind everyone that all other things (like velocity and sectional 
density) being equal, the more massive bullet will penetrate cover better 
and that most troops you're shooting at will seek cover if they're not 
already using it.  Big bullets still have their advantages.

And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting 
results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting 
dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or 
.308?  Or something else?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:39:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:39:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17936@r1clex01.cbr.defe
 nce.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410023924.027e4ad0@pop.wizard.net>

At 10:46 AM 4/10/02 +1000, Mikey (Michael Hughes) wrote:
>PBEM:
>
>I am thinking about running a PBEM D&D game for a friend. Does anyone know
>of a How To website out there for running PBEM RPG sessions?

I was thinking there's a need for the same thing.  Or at least will soon be 
a need.  Perhaps interested parties should form a new mailing list, and 
person or persons on that list be appointed to cull together an FAQ for WWW 
posting?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starship Insurance
In-Reply-To: <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410025025.027e56d0@pop.wizard.net>

After posting information of good pragmatic value to referees, Bill Scheets 
said:

>More on insurance later, if there is sufficient interest.

Keep up the good work!  The faint whirring sound you just heard was my hard 
drive as I saved your full post.

And yes, that's how I remember it working with seat belts.  Then safety 
harnesses.  Probably air bags before not much longer.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 01:10:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 00:10:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20409.111435.4V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410025314.02b56df0@pop.wizard.net>

Leonard says, regarding nuclear warfare:
>If they have reason to *expect* that sort of thing?
>
>A *lot*. Especially given that once nuclear damper tech is available,
>decontamination is a matter of raising the decay rate of the fallout
>and other contaminated material as high as you can without generating
>more heat than you want to deal with.
>
>A planet is a *big* place.
>
>There's also the fact that if you do it to them, you'd better expect
>them to return the favor.

Let us not forget that if the planet is an industrialized world, then most 
of the people and other interesting targets will have conveniently 
clustered themselves together in cities or military bases.  Five or ten 
thousand warheads with 50- to 100-megaton yield that reach their urban, 
suburban, and unhardened military targets will pretty much take that planet 
out of the battle for at least one generation.  Of course, their 
spacefaring navy will not be impacted by this immediately.  And, as you 
say, they'll be looking to return the favor.  I'm just picking random 
numbers, but numbers very easily within the capability of the Ziru Sirka or 
any of the Imperiums.

Sure, there will still remain plenty of places on the planetary surfaces 
that are fairly livable.  But the good harbors, river junctions, mountain 
passes, and natural resource sites will tend to be pretty 
unlivable.  Infrastructure and manufacturing capabilities will be all but 
destroyed, and the people to repair and rebuild will mostly be dead.

If everyone gets a chance to hide in good bunkers first, at least you can 
have huge chunks of population survive the immediate attack.  They'll still 
have to deal with the disabled infrastructure, which will lead to a lot of 
starvation.  Most of the facilities needed to repair and rebuild will still 
be destroyed.

I have too vague an image of how canonical nuclear dampers will precisely 
behave to really describe all how they will help, and what will be beyond 
their help.  It probably varies quite a bit from one referee's TU to 
another's.  I'd guess some referees only have them work if they're focused 
on ground zero at the time of the explosion, while others let you do 
whatever kind of prevention and clean up sounds theoretically within the 
limits of such a technology.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 01:18:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 00:18:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410031600.02c08230@pop.wizard.net>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link:
>I have been making notes on a run for my
>upcoming rebirth Traveller game. Team finds a "disk" that contains the
>secret information. but it is not compatible with what they have on the
>ship. Now how do they read the information with out destroying the
>contents.


I suggest referring to Web pages for professional data recovery 
companies.  Like On Track Data Recovery.
www.ontrack.com but beware of relatively heavy graphics and java scripting.

Western Digital's Web site (mostly known as a hard drive maker) is where I 
usually go to get a bunch of hyperlinks to data recovery firms when I need 
to refer people.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 01:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 00:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20409.224111.2G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Derek Wildstar writes:
>> At 03:46 PM 4/8/2002, Sam Draper wrote:
>>>I have read in tests that little darts at high velocities are
>>>remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do little
>>>tissue damage.
>> 
>>  From what I recall reading, the 60's era Army tests with
>> high-velocity flechettes in the SPIW program.  This weapon was
>> proposed by AAI, and fired 65 gram steel flechette at high velocity
>> (about 4800fps).
>
> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).
> A 65 gram projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.

65 grams is about 2.3 *ounces*. Ouch.

4800 fps = ~1460 m/s. 

Yeek! That's almost 70 kiloJoules muzzle energy! 

Yeah, that'd make folks go splat.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041108.027fb7c0@pop.wizard.net>

>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

That makes me Ingaty Pollan.  Sounds Hungarian or something.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] News from Delphi
Message-ID: <LAW2-F147TrBoe2U8QV000064a3@hotmail.com>

Hi,

I was wondering how is the Delphi history project going, I looked at their 
site, but it hasn't been updated since 2000.

Graham

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <14d.c0033de.29e50df4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020410031345.009c9260@minn.net>

At 11:39 PM 4/9/2002 EDT, you wrote:
>> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname  
>>for first name 
>>  
>> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the  
>>town where you were born.  

Leslie Allen Keller (Mom remarried) St. Charles (or Saint Charles),
Illinois, a suburb of Chicago.

Leska Dostc
Leska Dosai
Leska Dochi
Lesba Dostc
Lesba Dosai
Lesba Dochi

Cool...


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041108.027fb7c0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>
 <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020410032033.009cc4c0@minn.net>

At 04:12 AM 4/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
>>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name
>
>That makes me Ingaty Pollan.  Sounds Hungarian or something.
>
>--Laning

Leslie Allen Keller (Mom remarried) St. Charles (or Saint Charles),
Illinois, a suburb of Chicago.

Lieler Keldon or, Lietes Batdon




=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409234739.B19761@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
 <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
 <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
 <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
 <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041435.027f87e0@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl quoteth me and respondeth:
>On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:14:40AM -0400, laning wrote:
> >
> > One of several great sigs you employ, Mister Robert Uhl.  :->
>
>Thanks for the compliment.  I've rather a large amount of them, to
>tell the truth.  I've 264, which are randomly assigned by a Perl
>script attached to a named pipe.  Many, I'm afraid, are longer than
>the so-called McQ limit (4 lines), but I don't particularly care; it's
>a relic of a bygone era.

Keep up the good work.  :->

>--
>Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>This is why they complain--they don't _want_ to have brains.  Those lead
>to thoughts, and thoughts cause only suffering.  Thus, by asking them to
>think, you are inflicting the torments of the damned on the previously
>blissfully ignorant.        --John Rowat, in alt.tech-support.recovery

Tech support professionals are often more interested in proving their 
intellectual or genetic superiority over the "untermenschen" they "help" 
than in actually fixing problems.  The culture of elitism and braggadocio 
gets inculcated in many tech support reps before they even acquire skill in 
their primary job functions.  Reps who are confined solely to email support 
tend to be the worst.  I speak from personal observation of reps from 
several different companies, but confine my opinions to first and second, 
and sometimes third, echelons of support.

I will now prove my point by bragging.  During my tenure as an AOL tech 
support rep, I was documented to be one of the very top few best at 
actually fixing problems of any rep who has ever been in their database.  I 
rule.  And one of the primary causes of my success was treating each 
customer like a reasonable human being dealing with a problem completely 
unfamiliar to them.  Listen intently, don't talk down.  Think about what 
the actual problem is and how to fix it, don't waste mental bandwidth on 
looking for evidence to support my prejudice that all customers are 
inherently mentally defective.  If I'm so damned superior, what the hell am 
I doing working as a mere tech rep?  Most of the customers I talked to were 
being paid better than most of the reps I worked with.  Now who is the 
dummy?  :->

[And please don't anyone start with that empty and worn out "AOL sucks" 
crap.  Unless you've worked on their dev teams and are familiar with their 
host and network architectures.  And don't start with "AOL tech reps aren't 
real tech reps" unless you've worked with me or one of many, many other 
individuals I could name.  When you have that many thousands of reps, some 
of them are going to be damned good.  If you're still inclined to insult us 
after that, fine.  You'll probably be singing very different types of 
insults though.  I've my own stack of insults for AOL but it's more about 
wasted business opportunities, managers who are empire builders, and 
rampant cronyism.]

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 03:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 02:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020410085426.A2419@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020410191917.B3737@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is
> that if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we
> would prefer that neither of them drop.

Yes, that's one effect.  For example, light photons have sufficient
energy to cause certain chemical changes in pigments in the eye;
that's how we see.

If the chemical energies are a hundred times lower and Planck's
constant is unchanged, a light photon doesn't just affect sensitive
pigments, it rips electrons out of stable molecules and breaks
chemical bonds.  That's what we normally call "ionising radiation".

We can't just use light that has a hundred times lower frequency,
because it has a hundred times longer wavelength.  OK, I guess we can,
but it involves changing the speed of light...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 03:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Wed Apr 10 02:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041435.027f87e0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


AOL *does* suck.  I was a member back in 1996-97.  I had nothing but
problems with that wretched service.  My personal information was sold
to all sorts of bulk-emailers, spammers and porn sites.  The 45 minute
"click on this" to stay online button was a pain in the ass.  If you
minimized AOL and ran a browser, you didn't even get the warning..you
just got disconnected.   If you started AOL minimized, you'd get one of
their "click on this yes or no" advertisements and could not click on it
to finish logging on..so you had to disconnect and restart the whole
program.

Downloading was a joke.  You had to sit at your computer and wait for
the 45 minute button or lose the download.  (downloading the demo to
Wing Commander: Prophesy (69megs) was terrible).

I had to deal with a ton of unwanted porn mail and spam.  I had to deal
with the above frustrations.  I had to deal with support people
(obviously I never got you) who were clueless.

I had just paid for a month's time when I called up and said I wanted to
terminate my membership.  The person on the phone explained that they
could not refund my money and that I had almost a full month left.  I
said it didn't matter, I just wanted out.  So he turned my account off
and that was that.

2 months later, I got a bill from AOL saying I owed them for a month's
services.  So I had to call them and explain that I wasn't a member and
had quit in good standing.  The person on the phone looked into it and
agreed it was a mistake and told me it would be taken care of.

1 month later I get a second notice in the mail, demanding I pay my bill
or else.  Again I call them up and again they apologize and fix the
problem.

1 month after that, I get a notice saying that they are forwarding my
bill to a collection agency.  I call up and this time I tell them that
if AOL ever mails me again or contacts me in any way, I will sue.  The
person on the phone was very apologetic and promised I would never be
bothered again.

I wasn't.

A few months later, my mother calls me on the phone sounding concerned.
She asks, "Is everything ok?"  I replied to her, "yeah, why do you ask?"
She then tells me that AOL sent a past-due notice to her in my behalf
and that she paid it.

So AOL managed to *steal* money from my family that they had no right
to.  To this day I still get their stupid free CDs in the mail.

There are very VERY few things in this life I hate more than AOL.  If I
could destroy AOL and get away with it, I promise you I would.  They
have made an enemy of me for life.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 03:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Wed Apr 10 02:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410031600.02c08230@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <001701c1e075$33bf6020$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----


I suggest referring to Web pages for professional data recovery 
companies.  Like On Track Data Recovery.
www.ontrack.com but beware of relatively heavy graphics and java
scripting.

Western Digital's Web site (mostly known as a hard drive maker) is where
I 
usually go to get a bunch of hyperlinks to data recovery firms when I
need 
to refer people.

--Laning



Use an oscilloscope.  Read the magnetic wavelength off the platters and
subtract the perfect part of the signal.  What you have left is data.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <200204101125.DTH00304@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>
>= Barista Corrt
>

Sounds like you work at Starbucks.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gearhead Goodies: couple of rocket missile books
Message-ID: <3CB3DC6C.16284.140D91@localhost>

friend of mine has been flying model rockets for years, and he was showing me some 
blueprints and a  couple of books on rockets and missiles. 

www.arapress.com
the Spaceship Handboook and Rockets of the World



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGGCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> >
> >A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
> >bone from a walrus penis.  See
> >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html
>
So when I tell my girlfriend that I've got a "Boner",
I'm really speaking Eskimo?

-Shawn-



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:35:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:35:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEGGCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> >
> >A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
> >bone from a walrus penis.  See
> >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html
>

Ancient Eskimo wisdom say:
Never knife fight man with hairy palms.

-Shawn-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:52:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:52:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F217LltyKF5Q6JVW8s20001d6e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410044431.009e86c0@mindspring.com>

At 02:22 AM 4/10/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the 
>conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.

In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat 
in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?

Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public 
opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the 
region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.

All of these could be applied to the 1st Interstellar War.  The Vilani 
might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really capable of, or were 
under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder.  ISTR from losing endless 
games of Imperium to Craig that the Imperial governor was beholden to his 
superiors.. asking for the necessary firepower was a big blow to his 
prestige.  Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion snetients would do?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> 
> At 07:28 PM 4/9/2002, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
> >Team finds a "disk" that contains the secret information. but it is not 
> >compatible with what they have on the ship. Now how do they read the 
> >information with out destroying the contents.
> 

IMTU I have what's called "Imperial Standard".
These items cost 0-10% above the LBB price.
Anything Imperial Standard has compatible connectors
and data formats. Thus your Inertial Map Locator
can connect to your communicator to transmit it's data
to another players communicator, that is connected to 
his map box and hand computer. You get the drift.

-Shawn-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> QUOTE
> The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
> civilians.  It has little or no military application,
> contrary to popular mythos.
> END QUOTE
> 

Commanders who have given the order to "fix bayonets" to
scared troops, often notice an increased level of confidence
and moral. 

-Shawn-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

While putting together an exploratory cruiser for TNE (coming shortly) I
reread the information in the Solomani & Aslan book regarding the Solomani
explorations into the neighbouring Perseus arm of the galaxy.

It struck me that the ships of these expeditions would be quite challenging
to design. Mission length must have been in decades so the ships must have
been to a great extent self supporting. But just how would the ships cross
into the next arm?

Contrary to popular opinion there are stars in the gaps between the arms,
the spirals themselves being defined by bright stars. But as to how many
stars and whether fuel sources could be found there?

Assuming the ships were built to TL14 or 15 standard this means jump 5 or 6
maximum, and it is likely that in the "gaps" fuel sources may be further
apart than this. Very embarrassing for a ship to run out of fuel!

So IMHO the ships would also be fitted with Bussard Rams to scoop up the
hydrogen found in the space between arms. This would not be used for the
HePLar thruster but to refuel the jump drive and power plant. (Though this
makes the ship even bigger as it does have to carry enough maneuver fuel to
get up to a velocity where the Ram Scoop functions.

Any ideas?

Anyone want to have a go at designing one using FFS1?
Could such a ship work at all given Traveller Tech limits?

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409234307.A19761@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:12:37AM -0400
Message-ID: <3CB4DAB8.15448.3769A3@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 23:43, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> What I mean is that man, viewed as an organism, seems not to value RPG
> line editors as highly as information architects (but, e.g., higher
> than garbagemen).  That valuation has no moral meaning, of course.
> It's just that there aren't enough people willing to pay enough to pay
> line editors what IT people get.  Would _you_ pay $130 per supplement?

If the NZ dollar drops back to its former low vs the US$ and the price 
in the US of supplements goes up much more, I'll be forced to pay about 
that or do without. And if they were good supplements for a game I was 
playing (or was likely to in the near future) I probably would, sucker 
that I am.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>
References: <B8D89BAB.38054%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4DCF1.26051.4017AA@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 2:36, laning wrote:

> I also remind everyone that all other things (like velocity and sectional 
> density) being equal, the more massive bullet will penetrate cover better 
> and that most troops you're shooting at will seek cover if they're not 
> already using it.  Big bullets still have their advantages.

Yep. A source of complaint from the older guys when we switched from 
the L1A1s (a bit before my time, though the Air Farce was still using 
them in the early 90s) to the M16A1 and finally the Stryr AUG was that 
the 5.56mm bullet wouldn't go through 18" or 2' thick pine trees, 
whereas the 7.62x51 bullet would.
 
> And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting 
> results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting 
> dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or 
> .308?  Or something else?

I'd be quite happy with a .308, as long as I was used to the particular 
weapon. I'd prefer a .30-06, or in very close country a 12ga magnum 
shotgun (pump or semi-auto). However a lot depends on whether it's thin 
skinned or not - Leopards run up to 150-160 pounds and .243 is 
considered adequate for them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041435.027f87e0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <20020409234739.B19761@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3CB4DE5E.18426.45A995@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 4:35, laning wrote:

> Think about what the actual problem is and how to fix it, don't waste
> mental bandwidth on looking for evidence to support my prejudice that
> all customers are inherently mentally defective. If I'm so damned
> superior, what the hell am I doing working as a mere tech rep?  Most
> of the customers I talked to were being paid better than most of the
> reps I worked with.  Now who is the dummy?  :-> 

Now, I agree with you about not wasting mental bandwidth, but you've 
got the reason all wrong. the real reason to not look "for evidence to 
support my prejudice that all customers are inherently mentally 
defective" is that unless you've a self-esteem problem (like many of 
your co-workers obviously did) you'll know beyond a shadow of a doubt 
that you're superior. That being the case, why waste time proving 
something already self-evident?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 07:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed Apr 10 06:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Portland class scout cruiser
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBGEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

PORTLAND CLASS SCOUT CRUISER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION

The Portland class fitted into the small gap between escorts and light
cruisers. Most were deployed with the Confederations exploration division,
though the limited jump capacity, 1xJump-3 was considered something of a
hindrance, though careful mission planning could overcome this to some
extent. Portlands ranged far and wide, both on exploration and intelligence
work. Some were used by the Confederation navy, the two parallel 7,000Mj
N-PAW weapons providing a useful capability. More being used as defacto
cruisers as the 2nd Rim War progressed.

The Confederations exploration division responded to this by somehow
ensuring that most of the Portlands operated by them managed to stay far
beyond the Confederations borders. This also meant that a disproportionate
number of this class survived the war and the impact of virus.

In the absence of more capable vessels the Confederation also despatched a
number of Portlands on long range missions to search for any sign of
returning vessels from the Perseus Arms expeditions. These too had failed to
return when virus swept through the Solomani Confederation.


General Data Displacement: 15,000 tons  Hull Armour: 60
Length: 180 meters  Volume: 210,000 cubic meters
Price: MCr6,885.97438  Target Size: L
Configuration: Wedge SL  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 137,937.6836/122,269.5345 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 25,287Mw Fusion Power Plant (99.95Mw/hit), 1
year duration (83.7951Mw surplus)
Jump Performance: 1xJump-3 (42,000 cubic meters)
G-Rating: 3 (7,500Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 82 (96.9 with jump-2 reserve, 111.9 with jump-1 reserve, 126.8 with
no jump reserve), 937.5 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 5,012

Electronics Computer: 3xTL13 Fb (0.9Mw each)
Commo: 2x300,000km Radio (10 hexes, 10Mw each), 2x1,000AU Maser (8, 0.6Mw
each),
Avionics: TL10+ Avionics
Sensors: 2x150,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (5 hexes; 0.2Mw each),
2x300,000km Active EMS (10 hexes; 27.5Mw each), 2xTL13 Densitometer (0.9Mw
each), 2xTL12 Neutrino Sensor (0.01Mw each), 12xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw
each)
ECM/ECCM: EM Masking (210Mw), 36xDecoy Dispensors
Controls: Bridge with 98xBridge Workstations, Auxiliary Bridge with
98xBridge Workstations, Flag Bridge with 11x Bridge Workstations, Fire
Control Bridge with 15xBridge Workstations, plus 252 other workstations

Armament Offensive: 2xTL13 7,000Mj Parallel Mount N-PAWs (Loc: 4,5; Arcs:1;
194.4445Mw each; 19 Crew each), 20xTL13 106Mj Laser Turrets (Loc:
4x2,4x3,4x8,4x9,4x10 ; Arcs: 1,2,3; 29.4445Mw each; 1 Crew each), 8xMissile
100-ton Bays (Loc: 2x6,2x7,2x14,2x15; each with 4 missile/recce drones and
96 missiles or recce drones each; 0.15Mw each; 1 Crew each)

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
7,000Mj Parallel N-PAW  10:418  20:418  40:418  80:418
106Mj Laser Turret  10:1/8-26  20:1/6-20  40:1/3-10  80:1/2-5
-2 Difficulty Levels

Defensive: TL13 Meson Screen (PV=285; 90Mw; 4 Crew), 6xTL13 Nuclear Damper
Barbettes (Loc: 3x16,3x17; Arcs: All; 9Mw each; 1 Crew each), 10xTL13
Sandcaster Turrets (Loc: 5x18,5x19; Arcs: All; 2D6x5 per hit; 35 Cannisters
each; 1Mw each; 1 Crew each)
Master Fire Directors: 7xTL13 (4 Diff Mod; Beam; 10 hexes; 2.95Mw each; 1
Crew each), 8xTL13 (4 Diff Mod; Beam/Missile; 10 hexes; 3.1Mw each; 1 Crew
each)

Accommodations Life Support: Extended (42Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
1050Mw)
Crew: 675/687 (252xEngineering, 6xElectronics, 4xManeuver, 131xGunnery,
52xMaintenance, 41xShip's Troops, 6xFlight Crew, 156xCommand, 23xSteward,
5xMedical),Flagship adds (3xElectronics, 8xCommand, 1xSteward)
Crew Accommodations: 382xSmall Staterooms (0.0005Mw each), 10xLow Berths
(0.001Mw each)
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 1,355.7 cubic meters, four large cargo hatches
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: 1 15-ton RF14D Scorpion class recon
fighter with internal hanger (minimal) and one launch port, 2 30-ton Puffin
class ship's boats with internal hangers (minimal) and one launch port each
Air Locks: 150
Additional Fittings: 2x8-ton Sick Bays (0.8 Mw each), 2x10-ton Machine Shops
(1 Mw each), 2x6-ton Electronics Shops (0.6Mw each)

Notes
Fuel purification equipment (121.4037Mw) is sufficient to purifiy 24,280.74
cubic meters in 6 hours (30 hours for entire load exclusive of power plant
fuel) Fuel scoop capacity is 42,000 cubic meters per hour (2.83 hours for
entire load exclusive of power plant fuel).

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  		Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  		Systems
1  			1-2:Ant  		1-19:Elec,20:Qtrs  		PP-253H,JD-252H,
2-3   					1:LT,2-16:Qtrs,17-20:Hold  	FPP-170H,
4-5,12-13  		1:AL  		1-2:PA,3-20:Hold  		LS-123H,PA-80H,
6-7,14-15  		1:AL  		1-2:PA,3-7:MBy,8-20:Hold  	ELS-62H,AG-42H,
8-10  		1:AL  		1-2:PA,3:LT,4-20:Hold  		MD-23H,EMM-21H,
11  			1:LP,2:CH  		1-2:PA,3-20:Hold  		Hanger-21H,
16-17  		1:AL,2:Decoy  	1-2:PA,3:ND,4-5:Elec,6-20:Hold  MScreen-14H,
18-19  		1:AL,2-4:EMMR  	1-2:PA,3:Sand,4-20:Eng  	MBy-14H,ND-1H,
20  			1:EMMR  		1-2:PA,3-20:Eng  			LT-1H,Sand-1H,
   											ElecShop-1H,
   											MachineShop-1H,
   											SickBay-1H,
   											EMMR-(210h),MFD-(4h),
   											MFDAnt-(2h),AEMS-(2h),
   											Neutrino-(2h),SSR-(2h),
   											All others-(1h)

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
Message-ID: <200204101359.DTL04671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Antony Farrell" asks
<snip question about how to refuel in the middle of nowhere>

There are many brown dwarfs that are probably not on star 
charts, substellar or even Jupiter-sized gas giants in the 
middle of nowhere.

Ice balls, cometary bodies, etc.  Even clouds of hydrogen, 
depending on where you are.

You might, as you say, require specialized equipment to 
locate, identify, and exploit such resources.

Also, your ship may have backup power generation that 
provides a means of keeping the crew alive and the ship able 
to move enough to collect fuel.  This backup power generation 
is probably nuclear fission, which allows the ship to 
potentially go without hydrogen (albeit without jumping 
anywhere) for some time.

You may also remember Annic Nova.  That ship used power 
accumulators (and solar power to load them). 

So let's consider a ship with a nuclear fission base 
powerplant (to keep everyone nice and warm, and provide a 
little extra power to charge jump accumulators a la Annic 
Nova).  We'll also throw in a deployable solar array, in case 
we're near a star.

If we're in the middle of nowhere, with no sunlight, we 
charge the accumulators off of the excess power from the 
fission reactor.  If we're near a star, it's a bit quicker to 
recharge, since we get some solar power.

There might even be additional closed-cycle hydrogen/oxygen 
fuel cells.  These could be recharged from any other power 
production, and could be endlessly recycled.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022011.027e0130@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D9980E.382D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 11:24 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

>> The .223 is a fairly accurate round, on par with most cartridges.  The 308
>> is theoretically more accurate.  It is certainly more resistant to the
>> wind.  But as far as semi-auto platforms, there is nothing better than
>> Stoner's design.  Put a 308 in an M16 platform, like the AR-10 or SR-25,
>> and you get outstanding accuracy.
> 
> I've wondered for a long time about getting an AR-15 or similar chambered
> for .308.  How does it perform on full auto?  (I imagine it has issues with
> the barrel overheating more than a heavier weapon would.)  Rapid semi?  Is
> there even such an animal sold commercially?
> 
> Not that I have any actual use for such a thing.

Been living in a cave?  The original AR design was for a .308 (AR-10).
Current variants include the AR-10 and SR-25.  Like any full-auto .308, the
AR-10 is difficult to control.

It should be noted that the AR-10 and clones are no more prone to
overheating than any other .308 as current guns use barrels that are
comparable to other rifles.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <F210hWdlurZFj9V1M0i00013a41@hotmail.com>

>
> > Star Wars Name =
> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
> > name
> >
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town
> > where you were born.
>
>Mikpa Auhel.
>
>Hilarious...

Gresm Mopit

aka Andma Mopit



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D99957.382D9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 11:36 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting
> results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting
> dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or
> .308?  Or something else?

You forgot to add:  "Using ball ammunition only".

We are speaking of military weapons here, so let's get the ammo right.
There is no question that if ammunition selection is not restricted,
7.62x51mm is more lethal.

Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 over 7.62x51mm
ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
any particular caliber.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:28:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:28:22 2002
Subject: [TML] [Fwd: TML Landrgrab]
Message-ID: <3CB44B6D.D543DDB3@premier.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Another JTAS subscriber want to join in the Landgrab.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.
--------------905666F0ED2E48681BD24B32
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Return-Path: <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
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From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
To: "'landgrab@downport.com'" <landgrab@downport.com>
Cc: "'wombat@premier.net'" <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: TML Landrgrab
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 09:47:20 -0400
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I would like to stake a claim on the following worlds in the Spinward
Marches:

Keng/Regina
Kegena/Rhylanor

Thanks,

	Brian Hurrel

Brian L. Hurrel
ICS Analyst
EDS
(973) 682-5578



--------------905666F0ED2E48681BD24B32--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:30:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:30:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20409.224111.2G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D99A5C.382DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 11:41 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> 
>> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).
>> A 65 gram projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.
> 
> 65 grams is about 2.3 *ounces*. Ouch.
> 
> 4800 fps = ~1460 m/s.
> 
> Yeek! That's almost 70 kiloJoules muzzle energy!
> 
> Yeah, that'd make folks go splat.

I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.

69,562 Joules of energy
1,130 joules of free recoil

25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:31:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:31:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <F101tqbFkSX50mLWfFz0001f08d@hotmail.com>

>>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
>>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name
>
>That makes me Ingaty Pollan.  Sounds Hungarian or something.

Oryith Smimoo  / Regith Smimoo (if I went with 'Greg')

aka

Rewock MacMoo

Not too bad, eh?




Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F221lf8nFJ3VTPlu4kA0000f71e@hotmail.com>

Tod Glen wrote:>Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 
over 7.62x51mm
>ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
>is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
>any particular caliber.

It is a tuff call.  It appears that the 5.56mm does actually make bigger 
wounds, as long as there is sufficient tissue to penetrate, as long as the 
velocity is above 2700 fps.  With an M16 that is like 200- yards; with the 
M4 it is only 100-140 yards.  After that range, you are better off with the 
bigger round.  And the 7.62x51 certainly penetrates through cover better at 
all ranges.  But however you weigh those tradeoffs, there is no doubt that 
you are going to have to be carrying around an extra 5-10 pounds of gear 
with the bigger rifle.

It is my understanding that there is some griping after Afghanistan about 
the M4's performance.  Its lack of "stopping power" and penetration is being 
critisized.  With the 62 grain bullet, I think the muzzle velocity is only 
like 2900 fps.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F116kY5TetpIuPHDXE20001de7d@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting
>results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting
>dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or
>.308?  Or something else?

Using soft points, .308 (7.62)is actually probably overkill a bit for (human 
sized) deer.  Something in the .257 to .284 (7mm) range is adequate.  Most 
people still go with .30 caliber, because it is popular and it gives a 
little margin for error.  .308 is more appropriate for larger game, like elk 
(400 + pounds, with a much heavier bone structure).  It is important to keep 
in mind that when the US Army went to .30 caliber cartridges, they thought 
it was still important to stop a horse.  I think their choice goes a little 
overboard for infantry.  The Army has thought about going to a 7mm cartridge 
twice.  The first time, between the wars, it was decided that it would be a 
mistake to make all of the 30-06 ammo laying around obsolete.  The second 
time, under pressure from the British after WWII, the Army was still in awe 
of the Garand's performance and decided to go with 30-06 ballistics in a 
shorter package.

Then they went to .22.  Go figure.  The British were not too pleased.  And 
the rest of the Western world ended up with 7.62x51 rifles that are 
difficult to control, to put in lightly, on full-auto.

IMHO an assault rifle in the 6.5-7mm range and a velocity of 2800 fps would 
be a fine weapon.  Good for deer too.

.223 is largely considered underpowered for deer of the size you mention.  
It is legal where I live, but one problem you run into is that you must use 
soft points and they will not yeild sufficient penetration.  I read an 
article last year by a guy who went and shot a bunch of deer with centerfire 
.22s, and his conclusion was that the results were good so long as (1) you 
use bullets that hold together well, like Nosler partitions, and (2) the 
velocity is above 2700 fps, which coincidentally is the critical velocity 
for FMJ ammo too.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>; from ShawnSears@telocity.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:05:34AM -0400
References: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20020410095004.A21459@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:05:34AM -0400, Shawn R Sears wrote:
> 
> Commanders who have given the order to "fix bayonets" to
> scared troops, often notice an increased level of confidence
> and moral. 

This may be related to the visceral fear one feels when faced with a
blade: when on the wielding end, it may possibly feel much more
empowering than a simple rifle does.

I know in my own case that I feel somehow more prepared when carrying
a sword than when carrying a rifle or pistol.  This may even be the
real reason dress swords have survived as long as they have.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I once successfully declined a departmental retreat, saying that on that
day I planned instead to advance.                    --Alan J. Rosenthal

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F215PT3lz5yrFVq9GNS00002f52@hotmail.com>

laning said:

>I've wondered for a long time about getting an AR-15 or similar chambered
>for .308.  How does it perform on full auto?  (I imagine it has issues with
>the barrel overheating more than a heavier weapon would.)

I imagine that full-auto is uncontrollable.  The were only a few thousand of 
the original AR-10s made (for Portugal and the Sudan?), and they only 
weighed like 7 pounds.  I believe the SR-25 and modern AR-10 are heavier, 
like the same as an M14.  To tell you the truth, I am not even sure if they 
make full-auto versions.  It would probably be a little more controllable 
than an M14, even if it was the same weight, because the stock is in line 
with the barrel.

>Rapid semi?

I think you would get good results.  Israel uses the SR-25 as a sniper 
rifle, in conjunction with Remington 700s.

>Is there even such an animal sold commercially?

The SR-25 is made by an outfit called Knight's Armament, and the AR-10 is 
made by Armalite.  Both are for sale to the public; I think the AR-10 can be 
had for as little as $1,000.

>Not that I have any actual use for such a thing.

That is what my wife says about all of this Traveller stuff.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F206POYFSrAuWiqJmdT00013683@hotmail.com>

laning wrote:

>At 08:59 PM 4/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>>On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off some
>>M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and issuing them at
>>the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max 500 yards?) and
>>sniper (800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the guy with the M14 the
>>"designated marksman" or something like that.>
>Glad to hear we're doing that.  It's basically the latest variation on
>something we've at least theoretically been doing for many decades.

I guess the army is experimenting with the same concept, although they are 
using M16s with free floated 18" match barrels, supressors, and Leupold 
2.5-8 scopes.  I don't think these are for general issue, but have gone to 
special forces.  Some of the AP pictures show these weapons in use in 
Afghanistan.

I am sure the Army and Marines will be able to evaluate their respective 
designs, and rationally decide which approach is the best.  ;)

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 10:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 09:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204101603.DTP06500@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>
>It is my understanding that there is some griping after 
>Afghanistan about the M4's performance.  Its lack 
>of "stopping power" and penetration is being 
>critisized.  With the 62 grain bullet, I think the muzzle 
>velocity is only 
>like 2900 fps.
>

There was the same griping about the M4 from the Somalia 
experience.  Some people were hit as many as six times in the 
torso at less than 50 yards, and did not go down, or even 
slow down.  Now, some of the targets were high on khat, which 
is a stimulant, so it's hard to say.  I think of "high" 
people the same way I think of deer - unless you hit them in 
the right spot, they are going to try and run.  

For deer and 4-legged animals, I usually try and hit the 
shoulder, looking for a bone hit.  This means that I must 
have a bullet capable of breaking bone on impact at the 
desired range.

For people, other than a head hit, I'm thinking that 
shattering the pelvis would be very useful, but I'm thinking 
that's a heavier bone than deer shoulder.

It almost makes me think that if you really wanted to be sure 
of putting someone down, you have to hit them in just the 
right spot.  An M4 through the skull is going to put you 
down.  

It's too bad we don't use hunting ammunition in combat.  I 
think that if we had a better optimized bullet, the M4 would 
be fine.  Maybe not very good at armor penetration anymore, 
but great at stopping.  It was said earlier that non-ball 
makes a .308 very deadly.  Sure.  And a .338 even more so.  
But if we're stuck with 5.56mm, then we should redesign the 
round to maximize wounding.  Probably go back to a lighter 
bullet for the M4 (since we're shorter range anyway), maybe 
even 50 grains, and make it a varmint bullet designed to blow 
apart inside the body (to make a temporary cavity a permanent 
one). Get that velocity up, and make sure the round does not 
exit the body.

To paraphrase Apocalypse Now, to prosecute people for war 
crimes (like using hunting ammunition) is like handing out 
speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

 
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 10:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 09:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F11APfrrF69u7tS1RkF00004676@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon says:

>There was the same griping about the M4 from the Somalia
>experience.  Some people were hit as many as six times in the
>torso at less than 50 yards, and did not go down, or even
>slow down.  Now, some of the targets were high on khat, which
>is a stimulant, so it's hard to say.

From what I understand, the guys in Somalia had not yet been issued M4s; 
they had XM177s/CAR-15s with little 10 or 11 inch barrels.  The muzzle 
velocity with those weapons is only like 2500 fps.

In the book Blackhawk Down, one of the Rangers unloads his M60 on a guy and 
it takes a few bursts to put him down.  We ought to issue that Khat to our 
troops!

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 10:58:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 09:58:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <20020410.095929.-78189.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 07:25:02 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com  says
> >
> >= Barista Corrt
> >
> 
> Sounds like you work at Starbucks.

Yea, Starbucks in Startown - Lousy place for coffee, but the actions not
bad.

Just remember to roll the R's in "Corrt" bucko, or I'll have ya tossed
outa here by our new bouncer - Barst Cortor the 7 foot tall 300 lb
Barbarian.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204100809390.28175-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <DAV32eCyWu1MRRNOqcC0001c03c@hotmail.com>

> > Star Wars Name =
> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
> > name
> >
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town
> > where you were born.

Bilsc Guazl  [sigh]

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <200204101709.DTR06672@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>> > Star Wars Name =
>> >
>> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your 
surname for first
>> > name
>> >
>> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of 
the town
>> > where you were born.
>

Trying this again.  John Kwon.  Chapel Hill.  Mother's maiden 
name is Sweezy.

Joh + kw = Johkw
Sw + Cha = Swcha

Johkw Swcha

Not very easy to pronounce.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5@aol.com>

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   Shane writes:
> Star Wars Name =
>
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born.

Hmm..  Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
Using your equation, I'd be:  Shasr Baden

But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

Which for me yields:  Anemet Slabar
I dunno, they're both kinda cool.

   Hmmm, okay, that sounds cool too--lets see what I get :)

   Ethphy Murerw? I dunno... I think I liked Kenmur Ersan better :)
  -Ken Murphy-


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Shane writes:
<BR>&gt; Star Wars Name =
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
<BR>&gt; were born.
<BR>
<BR>Hmm.. &nbsp;Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
<BR>Using your equation, I'd be: &nbsp;Shasr Baden
<BR>
<BR>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
<BR>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
<BR>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name
<BR>
<BR>Which for me yields: &nbsp;Anemet Slabar
<BR>I dunno, they're both kinda cool.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Hmmm, okay, that sounds cool too--lets see what I get :)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Ethphy Murerw? I dunno... I think I liked Kenmur Ersan better :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40@aol.com>

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   Rob wrote:
   When I was younger I spit
chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it
sometime).
 
   It'd be an interesting exercise to see if the skills acquired could be 
generated using CT's "Other" career, or whether you'd have to knockout an 
entirely new set of skill tables--a somewhat scary proposition either way you 
look at it :)
  -Ken-
   Who is currently halfway through his 5th term in a still-as-yet 
undetermined career ;P
   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Rob wrote:
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;When I was younger I spit
<BR>chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it
<BR>sometime).
<BR> 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;It'd be an interesting exercise to see if the skills acquired could be generated using CT's "Other" career, or whether you'd have to knockout an entirely new set of skill tables--a somewhat scary proposition either way you look at it :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Who is currently halfway through his 5th term in a still-as-yet undetermined career ;P
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Craig Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020410143005.F2EB127AB3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0204100927470.24254-100000@hollywood.cinenet.net>

> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 04:49:00 -0700
> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> At 02:22 AM 4/10/02 +0000, you wrote:
> >Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the
> >conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.
>
> In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat
> in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?
>
> Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public
> opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the
> region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.

And a muddled, unrealistic set of goals for the operation.  We went in
with no understanding of Vietnamese history, society, psychology, or
politics, and expected to galvanize the South into a uniform resistance
force and to persuade the North to back off based on our *potential*
ability to stomp them flat.  Nobody ever seems to have considered what
would happen if they called our bluff.

> All of these could be applied to the 1st Interstellar War.  The Vilani
> might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really capable of, or were
> under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder.  ISTR from losing endless
> games of Imperium to Craig that the Imperial governor was beholden to his
> superiors.. asking for the necessary firepower was a big blow to his
> prestige.  Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion snetients would do?

You recall correctly, and in my mind this is sufficient to explain how the
Terrans managed their initial victories while outnumbered and outgunned
thousands to one (taking into account the full Vilani might).  I get the
strong sense that the Ziru Sirka practiced "shoot the messenger"-style
management a great deal; the status quo and normal operations were
the ideal, and regional governors were tacitly expected to report
"everything is okay!" while quietly dealing with any irregularities before
they came to wider attention.  To admit that a situation had come up that
you couldn't handle was taken as a failure of planning or procedure, with
the obvious effects on your career.

I am very strongly of the opinion that the local Vilani governor knew all
about the Terrans; probably several of them did, over the century or two
immediately preceding official contact.  Remember, the ZS was quite used
to encountering minor human races as it expanded, and I'm sure there were
exhaustively documented procedures and case studies on how to proceed with
their integration into the ZS.  The Terrans simply didn't operate
according to the 'rules', and the governor was terrified to report this
fully to his superiors.  The rest is (future) history.

-- 
   |   Craig Berry - http://www.cinenet.net/~cberry/
 --*--  "All that lives is holy." - William Blake
   |


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCELGDOAA.andy@exeus.com>

> But the thing is, I always thought the equation was: 
> Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name 
> First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name 

Rewick Briglo at your service.

Andy Brick
75% of Term 4 done. Aging rolls only a short while away ...
 
 
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.345 / Virus Database: 193 - Release Date: 09/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
Message-ID: <200204101734.DTT01888@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

For a good look at a list of 'munitions' please see

http://www.eurospace.org/usml.pdf

Tedious.  It seems to be whatever may be remotely useful in a 
weapon-related sense.  No plasma guns on the list - yet.

ObTrav: Still wondering how to handle "permits".  Or even the 
law level restrictions (which I think are odd - of course, 
there aren't any real countries where the rules make sense).

It could be worse.  If you want to hunt in Germany you have 
to wear the Keebler Elf outfit.

"It says here on the back of the permit that if I want to 
carry my PGMP in public, I have to wear the "customary" pink 
bike shorts and traditional "penguin" face mask."
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
In-Reply-To: <200204101734.DTT01888@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:34:43PM -0400
References: <200204101734.DTT01888@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020410120024.A21755@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:34:43PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> It could be worse.  If you want to hunt in Germany you have 
> to wear the Keebler Elf outfit.

???

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Friends don't let civilian friends report military affairs.  It
embarrasses the reporter, and grossly misleads the public.
                                                 --Laning

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40@aol.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGMCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1E099.1C0062D0
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	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 Rob wrote: 
  When I was younger I spit 
chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it 
sometime). 

Chicken Spitting?

It sounds like something a lion might do if the chicken tasted fowl. ;-)

-Shawn-

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1E099.1C0062D0
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	charset="us-ascii"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;Rob wrote: =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;When I was=20
younger I spit <BR>chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe =
I'll=20
write it <BR>sometime).&nbsp;<BR><BR></FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Chicken=20
Spitting?</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D601160418-10042002>It=20
sounds like something a lion might do if the chicken tasted fowl.=20
;-)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002>-Shawn-</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
Message-ID: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" wonders
>On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:34:43PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>> 
>> It could be worse.  If you want to hunt in Germany you 
>>have to wear the Keebler Elf outfit.
>
>???
>

When I was stationed in Germany, I wanted to hunt.  So I 
signed up for classes, paid a HUGE chunk of cash for classes, 
fees, etc.  Then I had to hire a guide. No option given 
there. The classes were extensive and mandatory (especially 
considering that the area I was going to hunt in is the size 
of a small park, and is neatly manicured).  At the end, I sat 
with my guide in a plush treestand.

It was mandatory that I wear the lederhosen.  I am glad no 
one has a picture of that.  That outfit is expensive.

And now the guide is instructing me on which deer I can 
shoot, and which are not permitted.

Have to tip the guide as well.  Most expensive deer I ever 
ate.  It's what happens when a culture is based entirely on a 
layered bureaucracy.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
Message-ID: <200204101816.DTU00025@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"John T. Kwon" says
<snip about hunting in Germany>

I could have gone to South Africa and hunted for two weeks, 
airfare included, for what I spent to hunt in Germany.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGMCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>; from ShawnSears@telocity.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:07:54PM -0400
References: <99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40@aol.com> <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGMCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20020410122225.B21755@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:07:54PM -0400, Shawn R Sears wrote:
> 
> Chicken Spitting?

There is (or was--it may have gone out of business) a chain called
Boston Chicken (later Boston Market) whose main draw was its
rotisserie chicken.  I prepared the chicken.

The way it works is that Sysco would deliver great plastic boxes of 16
chickens each.  There was a great plastic bag in the box which held
the chickens and the flavouring they were packed in.

I would go to the freezer and haul out 128 or 256 chickens (8 or 16
boxes) and wheel the pallet over to my workstation.  I'd then prepare
the garlic marinade: a gallon of apple cider vinegar and a package of
this garlic/sugar power mixture.  Then I would repeat the following
process over and over:

1) Open box
2) Slit open bag
3) Remove chicken
4) Slide hand into icy cold chicken and pull out any fat
5) Dunk chicken in marinade
6) Slide chicken onto spit and fix with spike
7) Repeat 3-6 thrice (four chickens to a spit)
8) Repeat 1-7 until no more boxes

It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over
me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar.

I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
For 93 million miles, there is nothing between the sun and my shadow
except me.  I'm always getting in the way of something...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
In-Reply-To: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:10:51PM -0400
References: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020410123043.C21755@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:10:51PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> It's what happens when a culture is based entirely on a layered
> bureaucracy.

LOL.  My favourite history prof in college told the story of trying to
name his son while he and his wife were living in Germany.  They
wanted to name him Calvert, after his wife's maiden name.  Apparently
one must take one's names from a great book of approved names--of
course Calvert wasn't in it.  So he asks them what he needs to do.
The clerk goes back to her superior and they discuss it for awhile,
then she returns and states that if he can get a letter from the
American consul stating that Calvert is an approved American name,
then he can name his son that.

So he went on down to the consul, they all had a good laugh, and the
letter informing the German registry that Calvert is approved for use
in America was sent.

OTOH, I daresay Germany has no-one name Moon Unit or Dweezil, so the
policy is not entirely incorrect.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Farewell Romance the Soldier spoke
By skill-of-sword we may not win
But scuffle 'midst the unclean smoke
Of arquebuse and culverin
Honor is lost and none may tell
Who paid good blows, Romance farewell.
                            --Kipling

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <200204101843.DTV03242@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert reveals chicken spitting
<snip>

I, and probably others, (Doug?) have done the burning of 
human waste thing.

Nothing like stirring burning human waste, sloshing the 
liquid around, trying to find a "clean" spot to grab the can, 
being permeated by the stench of diesel, smoke, and shit 
(pardon my French).

It's something that you were put on a duty roster for, so you 
didn't get it every day.  But it always came around.  When we 
started, I asked if we were going to be issued some good dope 
to smoke while we were burning the stuff.  After all, we had 
seen that in Platoon...

The powers that be were not amused.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020410191917.B3737@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 10, 2002 07:19:17 PM
Message-ID: <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is
> > that if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we
> > would prefer that neither of them drop.
> 
> Yes, that's one effect.  For example, light photons have sufficient
> energy to cause certain chemical changes in pigments in the eye;
> that's how we see.
> 
> If the chemical energies are a hundred times lower and Planck's
> constant is unchanged, a light photon doesn't just affect sensitive
> pigments, it rips electrons out of stable molecules and breaks
> chemical bonds.  That's what we normally call "ionising radiation".
> 
> We can't just use light that has a hundred times lower frequency,
> because it has a hundred times longer wavelength.  OK, I guess we can,
> but it involves changing the speed of light...

I get the feeling that you're trying to change constants rather than
looking at the problem as a closed system where all four fundamental
forces are modified in the same ratio (actually, I'm still hazy on
whether or not gravity should be included in this). To do so, I think
we really need to look at the most simple problems, involving only a
single atom or a pair of atoms. Otherwise, we may be dealing with a
system that is too complex to really analyze completely. I'd like to
return to the previous example, involving electron orbits. I'm going
to reiterate from my prevous post.

you write:
> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
> well.

Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
energy level of an electron in an atom?

I've heard that the atomic nucleus is held together by the interplay
between the strong and weak forces, the strong force keeping the
positively charged protons together while the weak force tries to
rip them apart. I suppose that since this idea of taming the quantum
foam should reduce both forces equally, the stability of the
nucleus would be uneffected (the effects of the strong & weak force
reductions should cancel out).

However, I'm not sure how to handle the problem of electrons, which
you mention above. But I'll try to tackle it anyway, so what follows
it totally off the cuff. I'm guessing that the electromagnetic force
keeps electrons attracted to the positively charged atomic nucleus
and repulsed by each other, hence accounting for their movements
(of course, this probably falls apart at some level, but bear with
me). Well, I'm just guessing here, but if their movements are determined
by the repulsive & attractive effects of the same force (electromagnetic),
then reducing that force should have no net effect, as reduction in
repulsion will be perfectly offset by the reduction in attraction.
In short, and I'm no physics major, so correct me if I'm wrong,
once again what I would expect is that these changes cancel out,
resulting in there being no need to change Planck's constant.

Am I totally wrong here? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 13:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 12:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>

At 08:03 PM 4/10/02 +0800, you wrote:

>So IMHO the ships would also be fitted with Bussard Rams to scoop up the
>hydrogen found in the space between arms. This would not be used for the
>HePLar thruster but to refuel the jump drive and power plant. (Though this
>makes the ship even bigger as it does have to carry enough maneuver fuel to
>get up to a velocity where the Ram Scoop functions.
>
>Any ideas?

A very interesting idea.

My first reaction to the problem was a squadron of ships, most of which are 
various kinds of rider configuration.  Including one configuration that 
carries a smaller ship, capable of jump-4 or higher and maneuver-1 and 
specializing in jumping with reusable modular fuel tanks and dropping them 
off, then going back to fetch more.  Eventually, they've dumped off a big 
enough fuel cache to support the squadron as it jumps on through.

Perhaps, only one ship one would jump through first.  A ship designed to be 
ready for trouble at the other end if trouble happens to be there.  Then it 
jumps back.  If the other end doesn't have a fuel source either, it will 
have to either carry enough fuel for two jumps or do a reduced jump so that 
it keeps enough fuel to jump back to the fuel cache.  All very tedious.  If 
necessary, the first fuel cache can be used as a jump off to establish a 
second fuel cache farther on.  Even more tedious, but doable.  That should 
get the squadron or at least one lead vessel of the squadron across a 
pretty big gap.

Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination 
star system.  Added to an astronomical database that must be built up far 
beyond what we presently have managed on Earth and from our lowly little TL 
7 or 8, undersized, spacecraft and only observing from the vantage of one 
solar system.

The exploring squadron probably will not have to do much guessing about 
fuel sources along the way, and will have their route well mapped.  The big 
surprises will be what come from close-in observations when they arrive in 
a system, and who/what life they meet along the way.

Any of the astronomy gearheads able to tell us anything about the average 
density and class of the stars in that region?

Are there rules that indicate how much space must be allotted for spare 
parts and repair equipment necessary to keep a ship provisioned for 
decades?  And just who the heck would pay for a trip that won't be heard 
from until after the financier is dead?  (Government, I guess.)  Who the 
heck would _go_ on the trip?  You need a military-style command structure 
to stay organized and on target during the trip, but can you feasibly get 
entire families of qualified crew to submit themselves to living out the 
remainder of their lives that way?  Or instead of families, will it go the 
opposite direction and be only people who've left all earthly attachments 
behind (lol) and are equipped with a plentiful supply of anagathics?  I 
don't recall anything that specifies the age limit for someone on a regular 
regimen of anagathics...Go out forty years and then turn around and come 
back?  My questions are spawning faster than I can type them out.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>

At 08:03 PM 4/10/02 +0800, you wrote:

>So IMHO the ships would also be fitted with Bussard Rams to scoop up the
>hydrogen found in the space between arms. This would not be used for the
>HePLar thruster but to refuel the jump drive and power plant. (Though this
>makes the ship even bigger as it does have to carry enough maneuver fuel to
>get up to a velocity where the Ram Scoop functions.
>
>Any ideas?

A very interesting idea.

My first reaction to the problem was a squadron of ships, most of which are 
various kinds of rider configuration.  Including one configuration that 
carries a smaller ship, capable of jump-4 or higher and maneuver-1 and 
specializing in jumping with reusable modular fuel tanks and dropping them 
off, then going back to fetch more.  Eventually, they've dumped off a big 
enough fuel cache to support the squadron as it jumps on through.

Perhaps, only one ship one would jump through first.  A ship designed to be 
ready for trouble at the other end if trouble happens to be there.  Then it 
jumps back.  If the other end doesn't have a fuel source either, it will 
have to either carry enough fuel for two jumps or do a reduced jump so that 
it keeps enough fuel to jump back to the fuel cache.  All very tedious.  If 
necessary, the first fuel cache can be used as a jump off to establish a 
second fuel cache farther on.  Even more tedious, but doable.  That should 
get the squadron or at least one lead vessel of the squadron across a 
pretty big gap.

Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination 
star system.  Added to an astronomical database that must be built up far 
beyond what we presently have managed on Earth and from our lowly little TL 
7 or 8, undersized, spacecraft and only observing from the vantage of one 
solar system.

The exploring squadron probably will not have to do much guessing about 
fuel sources along the way, and will have their route well mapped.  The big 
surprises will be what come from close-in observations when they arrive in 
a system, and who/what life they meet along the way.

Any of the astronomy gearheads able to tell us anything about the average 
density and class of the stars in that region?

Are there rules that indicate how much space must be allotted for spare 
parts and repair equipment necessary to keep a ship provisioned for 
decades?  And just who the heck would pay for a trip that won't be heard 
from until after the financier is dead?  (Government, I guess.)  Who the 
heck would _go_ on the trip?  You need a military-style command structure 
to stay organized and on target during the trip, but can you feasibly get 
entire families of qualified crew to submit themselves to living out the 
remainder of their lives that way?  Or instead of families, will it go the 
opposite direction and be only people who've left all earthly attachments 
behind (lol) and are equipped with a plentiful supply of anagathics?  I 
don't recall anything that specifies the age limit for someone on a regular 
regimen of anagathics...Go out forty years and then turn around and come 
back?  My questions are spawning faster than I can type them out.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Huxton)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>

Idle speculation from an idle speculator, and it must have been asked 
before...

We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any upper limit 
("that's no moon...")

I had a sudden vision of a jump-capable planet working its way around the 
galaxy sucking gas giants dry between jumps.

Any gearheads got a spreadsheet that can handle this?

Oh, no cheating of course, you have to do this using LBB Book 2 rules at TL13 
and bring the cost in at under 100MCr ;-)

- Richard Huxton



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:09:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:09:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F14rptKlUtfRZGHP4JZ00005b46@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public 
opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the 
region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf."

     "All of these could be applied to the 1st Interstellar War."


Mr. Berry,

     True, but I still have a hard time swallowing it all.
     We've got the constant drum beat in canon about the Vilani "way of war" 
being brutally pragmatic.  They use hostages, have no qualms about nukes, 
target civilians, etc., etc., anything tactic that is cost effective.
     The Ziru Sirka, or it's direct antecedents, were able to put the Vilani 
boot on the neck of quite a number of species and they've kept it there for 
millennia.  The fact that the Geonee, Suerrat, Syleans, et. al. are still 
being kept down at the same time the Terrans show up tells me that the 
Vilani could still get the job done.

     "The Vilani might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really 
capable of, or were under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder."

     After losing the first two Interstellar Wars and visiting the Sol 
system, the Vilani should have known what the Terrans were really capable 
of.  GT:RoF also mentions that the Vilani, when faced with the bewildering 
welter of Terran cultures and genotypes, thought they were facing an 
alliance of several minor human races.  That "threat" alone should have 
spurred some sort of response.
     It's the dichotomy that get's me wondering.  We've got ZS governors 
still keeping the boot on the neck of umpteen minor races, we've got the 
coreward governors arming and using Vargr mercs in political power games 
against each other, and, at the same time, we've got governor after governor 
after on the Rim behaving completely unlike the others throughout the ZS and 
losing piddling wars to a minor race nearly totally confined to a single 
system.

     "ISTR from losing endless games of Imperium to Craig that the Imperial 
governor was beholden to his superiors... asking for the necessary firepower 
was a big blow to his prestige."

     Don't confuse play balance with realpolitik.  As the Vilani player, I 
could spend the prestige points to build larger/more warships early on and 
end up occupying Terra.  The VP table would then paint me as the loser and 
it would be right up to a point.  The Vilani regional governor would "lose" 
but, with Terra occupied, the Ziru Sirka would have actually won.  The 
reverse holds true for the Terran player.  He "wins" because the Vilani 
governor lost too many prestige points, but whose home system is occupied by 
whom?

     "Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion sentients would do?"

     But they'd done it in the past, i.e. the Sky Raiders, and were 
currently threatening to do it to others, the many minor races being held 
down, so why didn't it happen to Sol?  The Ziru Sirka had the numbers, it 
had better technology, and it was chillingly ruthless.  How did it happen to 
lose?
     I'll take my slightly canon-bending answer to that from Cortez' 
conquest of the Aztecs; the Terrans had LOTS of "native" allies.  We all 
learned, wrongly, in school about how Cortez, with only a hundred men, some 
clumsy firelocks, and a few dozen horses, took down the Aztec empire.  Well, 
that makes for good propaganda, but in reality Cortez had tens of thousands 
of native allies, perhaps over 100K of them.
     Cortez visited the Valley of Mexico twice, the first time escaping by 
the skin of his teeth and the second time at the head of an invading army 
nearly 100K strong.  He and his allies built entire fleets to assault 
water-girted capital city of the Aztecs.  The seige went on for months 
before Montezuma finally surrendered.
     IMTU, the "real" story of the Interstellar Wars happens along those 
lines.  The Terrans are greeted at Banard's by a Vilani governor who sees 
them just another tool in his political power games.  The Terrans are 
allowed to expand, are used as deniable mercs in all sorts of Bureau 
bun-fights, and generally bide their time.  Once they feel they're strong 
enough AND they've contacted and recruited lots of those Vilani-oppressed 
minor races, then they strike.  The Terran Confederation wins over the Ziru 
Sirka thanks in large part to their allies; Terran money and Terran gumption 
stir the drink, but the allies provide the mass needed.
     Once the conquest is completed, the Terrans begin to downplay their 
allies contributions and eventually take the Vilani's place as top dog, just 
as the Spanish did with their own allies in Mexico.  Because winners write 
history, the story gets slowly twisted and diluted throughout the Rule of 
Man until it becomes recieved wisdom, an old wives' tale about the 
Interstellar Wars.  The Solomani can't acknowledge how things really 
happened, it would shoot their racist twaddle right out the airlock.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:10:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:10:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020410095004.A21459@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020410195114.49017.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:05:34AM -0400, Shawn R
> Sears wrote:
> > 
> > Commanders who have given the order to "fix
> bayonets" to
> > scared troops, often notice an increased level of
> confidence
> > and moral. 
> 
> This may be related to the visceral fear one feels
> when faced with a
> blade: when on the wielding end, it may possibly
> feel much more
> empowering than a simple rifle does.
> 
> I know in my own case that I feel somehow more
> prepared when carrying
> a sword than when carrying a rifle or pistol.  This
> may even be the
> real reason dress swords have survived as long as
> they have.
> 
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> 
  >>
  That's easily explained: Swords never run out of
ammo, and are a lot harder to break... ;-P~

         MACessna
  >>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:12:21 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F11APfrrF69u7tS1RkF00004676@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155047.01de3120@pop.wizard.net>

Sam D wrote:

>In the book Blackhawk Down, one of the Rangers unloads his M60 on a guy 
>and it takes a few bursts to put him down.  We ought to issue that Khat to 
>our troops!

Give credit to the guy, not the drug.  Nobody at TL 8 or lower makes a drug 
that can turn an average soldier into the Terminator.  I don't discount the 
drug making a difference, but like that.  For at least those last few 
seconds of his life, that poor guy was one of the bravest and toughest 
people in the world.  Drugged or not.

Or, it may just be that he was being spun around so much he hadn't fallen, 
and the machinegunner was too anxious to wait for him to fall and just kept 
firing.  Weird flukes like that kind of thing happen fairly often.

It's a really ugly business to be in.

--Laning

PS  Oh and thanks for the advice on SR-25 and AR-10.  Now if we can only 
get my wife to be able to sleep at night if there's a firearm in the 
house.  Not gonna happen.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D99A5C.382DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20409.224111.2G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155951.01dc24b0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn on a 65 gram instead of 65 grain bullet:
>I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.
>
>69,562 Joules of energy
>1,130 joules of free recoil
>
>25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)


Tod, what was the free recoil of that elephant rifle again?  For 
comparison.  I found your earlier calculations on the M1, M16, and gauss 
rifle, which were two orders of magnitude lower and then some compared to 
the above 65 gram bullet.

Hm, I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and plug in numbers for known 
weapons and science fiction weapons from time to time.  Then post on a Web 
site so all interested parties can reference it from time to time.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:15:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:15:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>

From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>

     "It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over 
me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar."


Mr. Uhl,

     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what lobsters 
eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!
     Underwater, where those disgusting little buggers live, oils acts as 
odors do for we land animals.  Thus, the bait in each trap must release LOTS 
of nice oils for our shell-bound critters to sense and trail back to the 
trap.  Also, the bait must be refreshed every other day or so.  (The traps 
need to be checked that frequently too, the lobsters tend to eat one 
another.)
     Preparing bait requires:

One 55 gallon drum
One heavy cleaver
One oar or paddle
One piece of wood you don't mind ruining
Lots of "trash" fish
One strong stomach

     Roughly "cuisinart" each fish by chopping it briskly and roughly with 
the cleaver.  Either leave the pieces hanging together by strips of skin 
and/or bone (the mark of a real pro) or let the chunks collect on your 
cutting board.  When the chunks pile too high, drp them in the drum and tamp 
down hard with the paddle.  Repeat until you run out of fish or ruj out of 
drum.
     The next bit is the most important.  Seal the drum up and then let it 
sit in the sun for a couple of weeks at a minimum.  Every once in a while, 
pop the top and give the contents a violent stirring.
     After the bait has "matured" enough, you can put it to use in the bait 
"purses" for your traps.  You either hump the drum aboard or a couple of 5 
gallon pails of the stuff when you go out to check the traps.  As each trap 
is hauled aboard, you have a freshly filled, plastic purse ready to re-bait 
the trap.  The lobsterman removes and measures the damn things while you 
fish out the used purse and put to fresh on it it's place.  Then the empty 
trap and fresh bait gets heaved overboard.
     It get pretty routine after a while and your nose shuts down.  I 
suspect it must be a little like working in a slaughter house.  You just 
don't notice certain things anymore.
     The first time I opened a bait barrel, I fed the fishes until I ran out 
of "chum".  Ma Whipsnade wouldn't allow me to wear my lobstering clothes 
anywhere near the house.  I had to change in the shed out back and run into 
the cellar to wash in a galvanized tub there.  You don't get paid in money 
either, instead a certain number of trpas are "yours" and you can keep or 
sell whatever is in them.  Not a bad job, I got a boat and car out of it, 
but I was happy to start in the screw machine shop once I was legal.  
Chlorinated oil is nothing compared to bait!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen



_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:19:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:19:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <20020410.133548.-8347.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hey Everybody,

Please feel free to utilize my two new characters IYTU.
If you do, please pass back any updated stats, thank you.

Barista Corrt [roll the R's] - Vilani Hybrid [pick any world]
UPP 768786
18 years young
Very attractive, 
shoulder length blond hair, green eyes
5' 5" 115 lbs
34B-24-34
soft spoken, but tough
New job as a barmaid at Starbucks in Startown.


Barst Cortor - BarbarianBrave
UPP A98342
30 years
Survival-0, Sword-1 [broadsword], Hand Combat-2
Brutish appearance, scared muscular body
long black hair, black eyes
7 foot tall 300 lb
50" chest, 34 - 34
gruff, hash demeanor
New job as a bouncer at Starbucks in Startown.
[due to the brawl at the haul across town]


Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20410.140930.5r1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> jimv wrote:
>> Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
>> an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
>> move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
>> suppression, they move toward each other much faster
>> than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
>> I wrong?
>
> If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
> on each ion, then it is true.
>
> If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
> to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
> factor of 10.

Which causes *other* problems, because that changes the ratio of the
electromagnetic forces to the nuclear forces in the atom. And changing
the strength of the nuclear forces affects the stability of the nucleus
in other ways. 

Also, there are other "forces" involved in chemical reactions that
depend on the strength of the charges, but not on the *square* of the
strength (ie the don't follow an inverse square law).

So changing the charge affects those also. And not in proportion to
each other.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:23:56 2002
Subject: [TML] testing, Ignore
Message-ID: <B8DA068C.393E0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:26:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:26:46 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155951.01dc24b0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8DA0857.393E8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 1:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn on a 65 gram instead of 65 grain bullet:
>> I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.
>> 
>> 69,562 Joules of energy
>> 1,130 joules of free recoil
>> 
>> 25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)
> 
> 
> Tod, what was the free recoil of that elephant rifle again?  For
> comparison.  I found your earlier calculations on the M1, M16, and gauss
> rifle, which were two orders of magnitude lower and then some compared to
> the above 65 gram bullet.
> 
> Hm, I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and plug in numbers for known
> weapons and science fiction weapons from time to time.  Then post on a Web
> site so all interested parties can reference it from time to time.

a 9 lbs rifle firing a 500 gn slug at 2100 fps has a free recoil energy of
85 Joules.  Just use the form at http://travellercentral.com/rules/ke.html.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:29:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:29:07 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
References: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4A451.4020608@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Have to tip the guide as well.  Most expensive deer I ever 
> ate.  It's what happens when a culture is based entirely on a 
> layered bureaucracy.

That's what happens when you've had no real wilderness for hundreds and 
hundreds of years...you might as well have gone 'hunting' in a corral.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:30:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:30:34 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B8D9F3BB.38CFC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:32:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (listmom)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:32:01 2002
Subject: [TML] test
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204101430010.1171-100000@rhylanor>

this is a test


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:33:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Nick Wright)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:33:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
Message-ID: <001101c1e0d7$3860c120$a8fb883e@fg>

The BBC have reported on what the nattily dressed US soldier will be wearing
on tomorrow's battlefield.  It is a bit worrying though that uniforms will
be "nearly invisible" (4th para).  Where's the Sarge going to sew his
stripes?

Check out

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1908000/1908729.stm

I remain, etc, etc.

Nick Wright


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] List Problems
Message-ID: <B8DA09B3.393F4%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Sorry about the delayed mail, all.  Seems I has some file locking issues
with the list server.  I initially assumed the problem was do to some
systems changes I made, so I did a roll-back only to fins the prblem was
unrelated.

Mail seems to be flowing now.  Please report problems to
listmom@travellercentral.com

Thanks for your patience.

Tod


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:38:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:38:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Counterterrorism
References: <B8DA068C.393E0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <019c01c1e0e0$04f78130$09d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Gentles,

In addition to creating the new TNE sourcebook, finishing up the truly
fabulous T20 rules, and making sure the cats get fed, I'm also doing some
work in counter-terrorism.

Sadly, I don't get to shoot suicide bombers or anything. What I'm doing is
helping promote an organisaton called NSI which is dedicatd to various
anti-terrorist activities.

To this end I need to place articles and generally promote interest in the
organisation.

Anyone whho feels that they may be able to help, or with something to offer,
please contact me offlist.

The technology to prevent a new Sept 11th exists now, yet many of the
measures taken by our governments are nothing but placebos. We could change
that.

Anyone?

Regards

MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020410191917.B3737@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020411083544.A5842@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> I get the feeling that you're trying to change constants rather than
> looking at the problem as a closed system where all four fundamental
> forces are modified in the same ratio (actually, I'm still hazy on
> whether or not gravity should be included in this).

Gravity is essentially irrelevant, barring any unknown effects of
quantum gravity.  Besides, you would have to *strengthen* gravity to
get the same relative effects.  So it shouldn't have the same ratio as
other forces anyway.

Apart from that, your goal is to have the behaviour of atoms (and more
complex systems) behave in the same way as before inertial
suppression, correct?  This requires more than just changing the
strength of forces.


> To do so, I think we really need to look at the most simple
> problems, involving only a single atom or a pair of atoms.

OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
just one simple example.

Hence inertial suppression requires more than just changing the
strength of forces.  If you want the atoms to behave the same way, you
need to alter fundamental constants as well.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:42:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:42:45 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155047.01de3120@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018477349.495.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> 
> Give credit to the guy, not the drug.  Nobody at TL 8 or lower makes a drug
>  that can turn an average soldier into the Terminator.  I don't discount
> the  drug making a difference, but like that.  For at least those last few 
> seconds of his life, that poor guy was one of the bravest and toughest 
> people in the world.  Drugged or not.

Actually, no, the drug could easily be responsible.  Much of the reason for
people falling down when shot is that they know they ought to, and drugs can
dull the pain response and/or make you too stupid to realize you've been shot.

The fact that he stood there are got shot several times by an M60 may suggest
why the use of combat drugs is discouraged.  People who are heavily drugged are
not usually known for their good tactics.
> 
> Or, it may just be that he was being spun around so much he hadn't fallen, 
> and the machinegunner was too anxious to wait for him to fall and just kept
>  firing.  Weird flukes like that kind of thing happen fairly often.
> 
> It's a really ugly business to be in.
> 
> --Laning
> 
> PS  Oh and thanks for the advice on SR-25 and AR-10.  Now if we can only 
> get my wife to be able to sleep at night if there's a firearm in the 
> house.  Not gonna happen.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:44:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:44:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
References: <20020410195114.49017.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <014a01c1e0de$3d265b50$09d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>   >>
>   That's easily explained: Swords never run out of
> ammo, and are a lot harder to break... ;-P~
> 

A broken sword is still a weapon to be respected. This I know....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:46:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:46:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
 <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410182447.0390c460@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:37 PM 4/10/2002, laning wrote:
>Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
>detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination

Classic Traveller allowed a starship to determine if gas giants were 
present in another star system from a 1 parsec range.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:49:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:49:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGNCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Craig Berry <cberry@cine.net>
>
>You recall correctly, and in my mind this is sufficient to explain how the
>Terrans managed their initial victories while outnumbered and outgunned
>thousands to one (taking into account the full Vilani might).  I get the
>strong sense that the Ziru Sirka practiced "shoot the messenger"-style
>management a great deal; the status quo and normal operations were

This is my opinion, as well.  China in the 1700s-1800s operated in much the
same way.

>I am very strongly of the opinion that the local Vilani governor knew all
>about the Terrans; probably several of them did, over the century or two
>immediately preceding official contact.  Remember, the ZS was quite used
>to encountering minor human races as it expanded, and I'm sure there were
>exhaustively documented procedures and case studies on how to proceed with
>their integration into the ZS.  The Terrans simply didn't operate
>according to the 'rules', and the governor was terrified to report this
>fully to his superiors.  The rest is (future) history.

I think the Vegans are what we in contemporary times call the Grays.  They
have been surreptitiously visiting Earth for a while to help us develop into
a human force that can get rid of the Vilani, with whom the Vegans have
never really gotten along.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Lost Causes
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17951@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

The Dougster:
In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat 
in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?

Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public 
opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the 
region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.

Mikey:
The US were never really going to win that one. As Uncle Ho is fondly
remembered saying 'I am willing to lose 10 men for each one of yours'. Hell,
I think the toll in Vietnam for the conflict was about a million on the
Communist side. So given loses of 50k for the US that's like 20 to 1. 

Besides it's a bit hard to 'save' a country that won't save itself. 

My 0.02 of course, so don't roast me slowly over a verbal BBQ.

I'm studying Vietnam now at uni. I particularly enjoyed the battle of Ap Bac
(?), which got turned into a major propaganda piece about the South wiping
the floor with Communist insurgents. When the smoke cleared they found just
3 bodies....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:56:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:56:39 2002
Subject: [TML] test
References: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204101430010.1171-100000@rhylanor>
Message-ID: <3CB4BE9A.1155267C@premier.net>


listmom wrote:
> 
> this is a test

Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled in terror, and you
would not have been informed.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:59:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:59:21 2002
Subject: [TML] test 5, ignore
Message-ID: <B8DA0282.393D4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:00:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:00:52 2002
Subject: [TML] another test
Message-ID: <B8DA059C.393DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:03:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:03:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20410.144847.1G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> jimv wrote:
>> > in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is
>> > that if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we
>> > would prefer that neither of them drop.
>> 
>> Yes, that's one effect.  For example, light photons have sufficient
>> energy to cause certain chemical changes in pigments in the eye;
>> that's how we see.
>> 
>> If the chemical energies are a hundred times lower and Planck's
>> constant is unchanged, a light photon doesn't just affect sensitive
>> pigments, it rips electrons out of stable molecules and breaks
>> chemical bonds.  That's what we normally call "ionising radiation".
>> 
>> We can't just use light that has a hundred times lower frequency,
>> because it has a hundred times longer wavelength.  OK, I guess we can,
>> but it involves changing the speed of light...
>
> I get the feeling that you're trying to change constants rather than
> looking at the problem as a closed system where all four fundamental
> forces are modified in the same ratio (actually, I'm still hazy on
> whether or not gravity should be included in this). To do so, I think
> we really need to look at the most simple problems, involving only a
> single atom or a pair of atoms. Otherwise, we may be dealing with a
> system that is too complex to really analyze completely. I'd like to
> return to the previous example, involving electron orbits. I'm going
> to reiterate from my prevous post.

The problem is, different things depend on *different* ratios. 

Some depend on things like the charge to mass ratio of particles.
Others depend on things like the ratios of the *squares* of of things.
And some are things like square roots. Or weirder ratios. 

You *can't* make them all match. 
 
> you write:
>> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
>> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
>> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
>> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
>> well.
>
> Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
> energy level of an electron in an atom?

Momentum, charge, Planck's constant, maybe a few other things.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:05:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:05:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20410.141449.7E5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> jimv wrote:
>> > Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
>> > an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
>> > move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
>> > suppression, they move toward each other much faster
>> > than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
>> > I wrong?
>> 
>> If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
>> on each ion, then it is true.
>> 
>> If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
>> to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
>> factor of 10.
>
> Under the premise of the inertial suppression idea, inertia
> is defined as the electromagnetic drag caused by mass accellerating
> through the zero point field (essentially due to subatomic interactions
> with virtual photons). So, if this were the case, it might hold true
> that the EM force would be reduced by inertial suppression, at least if
> one assumes that EM forces are transferred via virtual photons, sort of
> like the way waves on the ocean are transferred through the water
> molecules making up the waves (you physicists on the list can probably
> laugh at this statement... I'm really showing my ignorance here).

That's a hypothesis that doesn't have a lot of backing. Nor are matters
that simple.

> Anyway,
> off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to make this
> work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the square-root of the
> inertial suppression factor. If we make that handwave, which is
> certainly a god-being-nice type to rule to make, then I'd imagine
> that we've got gravity & EM both covered. However, if anyone can
> provide a counterexample, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Alas, you've just changed to speed of light by doing this. 

Then there are thins like the fine structure constant:

u*c*e^2/2h

where
u = permeability of a vacuum
c = speed of light in a vacuum
e = charge of the electron
h = Plank's constant

Change the value of *that* and all sorts of stuff goes to hell.

Which means your changes have to be such that its value remains
unchanged. By the time you are done dinking around with that, things
have gotten *way* too complicated.

> Also, there's still the weak and strong forces to think about. Since
> weak is purportedly linked to EM, one would expect some sort of similar
> square-root drop off. As for the strong force, I have no idea. -Jim

The weak force and the electromagnetic force are different aspects of
the electro-weak force just as electric and magnetic field effects are
different aspects of the electromagnetic force (see Maxwells
equations).

The strong force and gravity (and the color force that quarks exert on
each other) may or may not be realated to the electr-weak forces in
various ways.

We can't achieve the energies required to check out the strong and
color forces, and gravity is so damned *weak* it's hard to experiment
with.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:07:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:07:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20410.143404.7i6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> You should likewise reduce the strength of the strong and weak forces.
>
> Okay... so I guess we need to suppose that all these forces get dropped
> by the same factor.

Alas, some effects that are important to trivial things like *life*
depend on various odd *powers* (square, square rooe 3/2 power, etc) of
the strength of these forces.

>> Now, just Planck's constant to deal with :)
>
> Okay... I'm totally clueless, but:
> E=hv, where h = planck's constant and v = frequency
> (note: i have no idea what i'm taking about)
> in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is that
> if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we would prefer
> that neither of them drop.

Another form has Planck's constant equalling the product of the
uncertainty in the positon and the uncertainty in the momentum of a
particle.

Planck's constant is behind *all* quantum effects. and it basicly says
how "granular" the universe is. 

Changing it by *tiny* amounts would have *major* effects on the way the
universe works.

>> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
>> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
>> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
>> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
>> well.
>
> Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
> energy level of an electron in an atom?

> I've heard that the atomic nucleus is held together by the interplay
> between the strong and weak forces, the strong force keeping the
> positively charged protons together while the weak force tries to
> rip them apart.

No. The electromagnetic repulsion of all those protons in the nucleus
tries to rip it apart. The weak force does stuff like hold neutrons
together (a neutron is effectively a "bound state" odf a proton, an
electron and an anti-neutrino). 

> I suppose that since this idea of taming the quantum
> foam should reduce both forces equally, the stability of the
> nucleus would be uneffected (the effects of the strong & weak force
> reductions should cancel out).

If only it was that simple. Among other things, the strong and weak
forces *don't* oney the inverse square law *and* they have a maximum
range. This is because they use exchange particles that have mass, as
opposed to the massless exchange particles (photons and gravitons) used
by the electromagnetic and gravitational forces. 

Oh shit....

There's another way to read that equation you gave up above. 

E = h*v

E = uncertainty in energy of a system
v = time interval
h = Planck's constant.

That's *how* exchange particles work. The energy of the virtual
particle is higher the shorter the time it has to exist (or vice
versa). Changing Planck's constant messes with that too. 

> However, I'm not sure how to handle the problem of electrons, which
> you mention above. But I'll try to tackle it anyway, so what follows
> it totally off the cuff. I'm guessing that the electromagnetic force
> keeps electrons attracted to the positively charged atomic nucleus
> and repulsed by each other, hence accounting for their movements
> (of course, this probably falls apart at some level, but bear with
> me). Well, I'm just guessing here, but if their movements are determined
> by the repulsive & attractive effects of the same force (electromagnetic),
> then reducing that force should have no net effect, as reduction in
> repulsion will be perfectly offset by the reduction in attraction.
> In short, and I'm no physics major, so correct me if I'm wrong,
> once again what I would expect is that these changes cancel out,
> resulting in there being no need to change Planck's constant.

Afraid not. 

For one thing, electrons are just barely what we normally think of as
particles. They aren't little billiard balls. They are more in the
nature of fuzzyt little "clouds". The electron is most likely *here*,
but could be clear over *there*. More like a ball of fog than anything
we are familiar wuith from everyday life.

I'd need a lot of time with books (and more recent exposure to quantum
mechanics) to even begn to figure out what would happen at the atomic
and subatomic levels.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Worst Job in the world
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17953@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Robert A. Uhl
It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over
me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar.

I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

Mikey:
Here in government service we like to bitch and moan about our lot in life.
I just forwarded this on to my co-workers to remind us all we don't have it
so bad.

Thanks man. 

PS I once got fired from cotton chipping, one of the more menial jobs in
life and one where ex convicts can find gainful employment. I was forced to
hitch into town (30 klicks) and was picked up by an insane Kiwi shearer (he
looked like John English for you Oz types), whose dayglo orange combi was
circa 60's and decorated in peace stickers. He proceeded to laugh manically
and go for three animals with his vehicle that made the mistake in trying to
cross the road. 

I got dropped off early. 

The whole trip, which involved catching a lift with a friend and staying in
the worst trailer park (aka cravan park) in western civilisation, ended up
costing $80.

I was not meant for menial work. 

Ob Trav: Travellers are not meant for menial work either. That's why
invariably they end up doing something illegal. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F221lf8nFJ3VTPlu4kA0000f71e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB575BB.18754.8358A9@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 15:20, Sam D wrote:

> Tod Glen wrote:>Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 
> over 7.62x51mm
> >ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
> >is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
> >any particular caliber.
> 
> It is a tuff call.  It appears that the 5.56mm does actually make bigger 
> wounds, as long as there is sufficient tissue to penetrate, as long as the 
> velocity is above 2700 fps.  With an M16 that is like 200- yards; with the 
> M4 it is only 100-140 yards.  After that range, you are better off with the 
> bigger round.  And the 7.62x51 certainly penetrates through cover better at 
> all ranges.  But however you weigh those tradeoffs, there is no doubt that 
> you are going to have to be carrying around an extra 5-10 pounds of gear 
> with the bigger rifle.

Excuse me? How much ammo are you thinking of? For dangerous game 
hunting (the original question) 20 rounds is more than enough, and 
there's no real need for a 10 pound battle rifle. A 7.5 pound light 
sporter will do fine (and that's what my father's PH Magestic from the 
early 60's weighed with scope, etc.), and that's less weight than an 
M16A2.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:40:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:40:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D99957.382D9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 7:25, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/9/02 11:36 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
> 
> > And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting
> > results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting
> > dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or
> > .308?  Or something else?
> 
> You forgot to add:  "Using ball ammunition only".
> 
> We are speaking of military weapons here, so let's get the ammo right.
> There is no question that if ammunition selection is not restricted,
> 7.62x51mm is more lethal.
> 
> Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 over 7.62x51mm
> ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
> is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
> any particular caliber.

I think that this depends a lot on the exact game. If it's leopards, 
small lions or people the 5.56 could well be better, but on thick-
skinned game (not that there's a huge amount in that size range), like 
wild boar the 7.62x51 even with ball would be a better choice IMO, 
because it has better penetration. All the wounding potential in the 
world won't help you if the bullet stops on the outside of a boar's 
shoulderblade.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 4:38 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

>> You forgot to add:  "Using ball ammunition only".
>> 
>> We are speaking of military weapons here, so let's get the ammo right.
>> There is no question that if ammunition selection is not restricted,
>> 7.62x51mm is more lethal.
>> 
>> Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 over 7.62x51mm
>> ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
>> is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
>> any particular caliber.
> 
> I think that this depends a lot on the exact game. If it's leopards,
> small lions or people the 5.56 could well be better, but on thick-
> skinned game (not that there's a huge amount in that size range), like
> wild boar the 7.62x51 even with ball would be a better choice IMO,
> because it has better penetration. All the wounding potential in the
> world won't help you if the bullet stops on the outside of a boar's
> shoulderblade.

I think the hint was 180-200 lbs dangerous game (meaning people)

My first choice for all around game hunting of large animals (over 150 lbs)
and using non-expanding bullets would probably be my .458 Witworth.  It is
reasonably accurate to about 200 yards with express sites ( a ghost ring
would be preferable, but not 'right').  I can load anywhere from  55 - 72
grains of 4895 and go with bullets from 300-500+ grains.  My 'plinking' load
is a 405 gn hard cast bullet in front of 62 gns of 4895.  Plenty of bang for
just about anything.  I suspect the 500 gn monolithic solids would work well
on most game too, as well as the occasional car.

Note that this is strictly a short range load.  No 600 meter head shots.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>

Starship Insurance - Theft and Casualty - Claims

Having dutifully obtained your Theft and Casualty insurance, and having paid
your premiums on time and in full every month, you find yourself set upon by
pirates just short of jump point.  You are careful to respond to them in a
way that will not void your policy (we'll get to that later) and they wind
up taking your ship and leaving you adrift in an escape pod.

It's time to file your theft claim, whereupon your insurer will promptly pay
you. (Hysterical laughter slowly subsides.)

Basics of filing a claim:  The claim must be filed in a timely manner.  The
insured must take steps to mitigate damages.

Timely filing of a claim simply means to report your loss to your agent or a
claims representative a soon as possible.

Mitigation of damages means a reasonable exercise of common sense and effort
to ensure that your loss doesn't get worse, and that (if possible) it will
get better.  In the event of theft, reporting the theft to law enforcement
and other authorities would be a part of mitigation.  Damage should be dealt
with immediately to prevent further damge.  If one of the power regulators
is spiking in a way that endangers the jump-drive, a smart policy-holder
will reroute power around the faulty regulator, or delay jump until a
replacement can be had.  If the policy-holder ignores the power regulator
problem, attempts jump without dealing with it, and slags his J-drive, the
insurance company will likely decide to cover the regulator but not the
J-drive.  Why?  The policy-holder took no steps to mitigate damages.

Failure to file the claim in a timely manner, as well failure to mitigate,
can both be flags for insurance fraud.  Other fraud flags could be (but
certainly wouldn't be limited to):  recent purchase of policy, recent
increase in coverage or additions of riders, key crewmembers who can't be
located, vessels recent past can't be accounted for, etc.

When a claim is filed, the insurance company assigns an adjustor.  The
adjustor's job is to "adjust" the amount paid to the policyholder based upon
the covarage of the policy and the circumstances surrounding the claim.  If
at any step in the process the adjustor can find a reason to deny the claim,
the insurance company wins, the policy-holder loses, and the adjuster gets
an "attabeing" from the company.

One of the first steps the adjustor will take is to gather all relevant
documents they can.  First, because it is readily available, would be a copy
of the policy and all riders as well as the policy-holder's premium payment
history.  If the policy-holder (hereafter p-h) missed a payment, and
coverage was not in effect at the time of loss: claim denied.

Next the adjustor would look at insurance loss report(s) filed by the p-h
(not just for this claim but for any past claims of the p-h -- the adjustor
has to look for those fraud flags.)  Adjustor will further review police and
system defense authority reports, maintenance and repair records, ship's
log, ship's officer's logs, statements taken from the ship's officers and
crew, police and defense officials, and any witnesses to the loss.

Pursuant to all this, the adjustor will use the services of one or more
field investigators, who may be employees of the insurance company, or may
be independent investigators working on a contract basis.  The investigator
will be collecting documents, interviewing and taking statements from
sophonts, examining and documenting damage to the vessel, examing and
documenting the scene of loss, and generally doing legwork for the adjustor.
(Remember, the adjustor handles more than one claim at a time.)

Processing claims where the loss takes place outside a system where an
adjustor is present will be a drawn out process.  A claims decision
involving a loss of the magnitude of a starship would probably take the
better part of a year to process, even with instantaneous communication.

Sometimes the insurance company will actually pay a claim.  If the ship was
damaged, p-h will be paid for repair of damage or replacement of systems
(minus deductible.) Note that such repair and replacement will have already
long since been done in most cases.  The average owner-operator must keep
travelling in order to remain economically viable.

If the ship suffered damage that would cost more to repai than the ship is
worth the ship will be declared a total loss. Same thing if the ship was
stolen.  Note that if the insurer pays out on a total loss, the ship (or
what's left of it) becomes the property of the insurance company.  If the
ship is recovered from the thieves or found in an interstellar chop shop,
the insurance company will be the entity entitled to have the vessel.
(Presumably salvage law would kick in after some period prescribed by
black-letter law, at which point the ship would belong to whoever recovered
it.)

More later.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Near Star List - it's growing
Message-ID: <200204110010.DUF04546@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I listen to Stardate on NPR every evening, and today they 
were talking about the stars within 4 parsecs (see the map at 
their website stardate.org).  Apparently, there are more 
stars than previously known within a "short" distance of the 
Sun.

One example is a search for nearby stars -- some of our 
closest neighbors in all the universe. 

The project is headed by Todd Henry of Georgia State 
University. Team members are searching the heavens with 
fairly small telescopes in Chile. They're aiming mainly at 
faint, cool stars known as red dwarfs. Many of our closest 
neighbors are red dwarfs. But they're so faint that not a 
single one is visible to the unaided eye. 

The astronomers are watching the stars for many months to see 
which ones move against the background of other stars -- a 
motion that reveals which stars are close by. It's like 
holding up your finger and looking at it first with one eye, 
then the other; the finger appears to move back and forth 
against the background. 

By measuring this motion, the astronomers have discovered 13 
new stars within 33 light-years of Earth. The closest of the 
bunch is just 12 light-years away, making it the 20th closest 
known star system. 

________________
When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 16:51, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I think the hint was 180-200 lbs dangerous game (meaning people)

I assumed that we were looking at choices for other dangerous game to 
see if it illuminated the dissucssion of what should be used a people 
(a very thin-skinned type of dangerous game).
 
> My first choice for all around game hunting of large animals (over
> 150 lbs) and using non-expanding bullets would probably be my .458
> Witworth.  It is reasonably accurate to about 200 yards with express
> sites ( a ghost ring would be preferable, but not 'right').  I can
> load anywhere from  55 - 72 grains of 4895 and go with bullets from
> 300-500+ grains.  My 'plinking' load is a 405 gn hard cast bullet in
> front of 62 gns of 4895.  Plenty of bang for just about anything.  I
> suspect the 500 gn monolithic solids would work well on most game
> too, as well as the occasional car. 

My first choice would probably be a .375 H&H. Much though I admire 
Weatherbys they cost too much and are generally over-powered if you're 
using solids - they'd tend to horribly over-penetrate anything but the 
heaviest game. With expansive bullets I'd drop to a .338 Winchester or 
.340 Weatherby unless in Africa, in which case the .375's would be the 
way to go, IMO. .416s and .458/.460s are good vs buffs, elephants, etc. 
but aren't long-range rounds, so you'd need a second rifle for those 
300-500 yard shots on eland, etc.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F195GoE1k8LN6FWe7Xl0000b978@hotmail.com>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

     "This is my opinion, as well.  China in the 1700s-1800s operated in 
much the same way."


Mr. Goffin,

     I don't like to stretch the Imperial China-Ziru Sirka analogy too far.  
1700 China was already behind in the technology race, despite some very 
notable and very early firsts; compasses, stern post rudders, gunpowder, 
paper, printing, etc.  They just never put it all together for a variety of 
reasons.  The Ming dynasty actually had to beg the Jesuits for cannon 
founders in the mid-1600s while they were tangling with the Manchus.  Yuo, 
West-to-East tehnology transfers were happening that early.
     The Ziru Sirka, while stagnant, is ahead of the Terrans in the tech 
race.  Sure the Terrans can catch up, if they're given the time.  I just 
can't quite understand why they were given the time.
     The Imperial China the "Southern Barbarians" began contacting in the 
1500's was in one of it's disintergration phases.  The Ming were on the way 
out, the Manchus were trying to get in, pirates and warlords abounded.  The 
periphary was unravelling, Taiwan was a pirate kingdom that the Chinese paid 
the Dutch to tackle for them, Korea either lost to the Japanese or 
independent, Tibet gone, the far west lost to various horse peoples.  The 
Ming were straining every nerve just to keep the lid on, and they failed.  
After them, the Manchu were nothing more than a foreign dynasty simply 
trying to remain in power.  They restored nothing of China's former power or 
borders, even losing more territory as their dynasty went on.
     Does any of that sound like the Ziru Sirka to you?
     When they met the Terrans, the Vilani were keeping a ZS boot on the 
necks of umpteen minor races, races and home worlds that the Vilani were 
able to keep quiet even as the Terrans racked up victory after victory.  
There is no mention of these plethora of minor races rising in revolt, all 
we hear about is their "welcoming their Terran liberators."  How were the 
Vilani able to keep all those minor races down, how were they able to play 
power politics with Vargr merc pawns, how were they able to still do all of 
that, and STILL lose to a single system polity?

     "I think the Vegans are what we in contemporary times call the Grays.  
They have been surreptitiously visiting Earth for a while to help us develop 
into a human force that can get rid of the Vilani, with whom the Vegans have 
never really gotten along."

     That's part of my take on the whole problem.  The Terran Confederation 
victory over the Ziru Sirka is more along the lines of Cortez versus the 
Aztecs; i.e lots of native allies, and most decidely not a case of "Terra 
Uber Alles."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:38:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:38:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
<snip consideration of various calibers>

I'm trying to make up my mind between the .375 and the .338.  
Since I'm in N. America, it may be the .338. 

The situations that Traveller characters find themselves in 
are rarely more than a few opponents, and most are armed 
(depending on the GM, of course) with pistols and short range 
weapons.  In one past campaign, I did rather well with a 
single-shot falling block rifle in .375 H&H.  I was playing a 
PH, and this was my "walking about" rifle.  I was infamous 
for killing three other player characters by shooting down 
their custom air raft (first shot hit the driver through the 
front, the second shot disabled the powerplant and the other 
two plummeted to their deaths).

If you also consider that Traveller gun combat is at about 
the same range as a Cape Buffalo encounter, and you're 
probably going to live for about as many shots (two, maybe 
three), then I think that whatever makes a good Cape Buffalo 
weapon might make a good Traveller combat weapon.

Let's see.  We'll make it .416 Remington, since we can still 
get Speer tungsten core solids. 

The rifle should be a 4-shot controlled-feed pre-64 
Winchester action (with fixed ejector).  Barrel length should 
be 22 inches, and we'll go with a muzzle brake.  The stock 
should be optimized for firing on your hind legs, and we'll 
put a Trijicon Reflex sight on top, with express sights just 
in case that gets broken.

A PH should be able to get two or three quick aimed shots off 
with something like this.  I haven't seen many Traveller-
style combats last more than a few combat rounds. And you'll 
only have to hit another human *once* with something like 
this.  Tod might make it a .458, though.

Get yourself a pouch that holds 20 rounds, maybe keep 40 
rounds in your pack.  More than enough for most Traveller 
adventures.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDHDKAA.tml@downport.com>

Chumming is for guys not strong enough to be sternman :p

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade

>     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what
lobsters
>eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!

And just think, filters (clams, oysters, etc.) eat what settles on the
bottom after it went through the lobster or crab. Shrimp eat floaties. But
I'd still eat a lobster before I'd chow down on their landlubber cousins,
the spiders :x



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 19:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 10 18:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
In-Reply-To: <001101c1e0d7$3860c120$a8fb883e@fg>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410180651.009f12d0@mindspring.com>

At 10:32 PM 4/10/02 +0100, you wrote:
>The BBC have reported on what the nattily dressed US soldier will be wearing
>on tomorrow's battlefield.  It is a bit worrying though that uniforms will
>be "nearly invisible" (4th para).  Where's the Sarge going to sew his
>stripes?

Considering the stripes worn on the BDU are barely visible now, I don't 
think it is that big of a deal.

I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet 
cover.  In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 19:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 18:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410182447.0390c460@mail.qrc.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>
 <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
 <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020410205024.00a6ead0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 06:25 PM 4/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>At 03:37 PM 4/10/2002, laning wrote:
>>Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
>>detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination
>
>Classic Traveller allowed a starship to determine if gas giants were 
>present in another star system from a 1 parsec range.

I would suggest looking at Adventure 4(?) Leviathan and AM4: Zhodani for 
information on explorations.  Another good website would be 
http://www.securityleak.net/slm/index.html and check out Security Leak #5 
for a detailed look at the Zhodani Core Expeditions.

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
References: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <fos9busmdg2u2fv6oem9hlloq0u375f62e@4ax.com>

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 20:12:13 +0000, "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

>From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
>
>     "It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all =
over=20
>me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
>clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
>from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
>awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar."
>
>Mr. Uhl,
>
>     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what =
lobsters=20
>eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!

We seem to be in the midst of "onedownsmanship" here, with each
account somehow managing to add to the general disgusting flavor of
the thread.

Unless all and sundry truly wish to see an avalanche of reports of
keyboard kills due to the ever rising gorge of the list readers, I
sincerely hope that our talented TML writers bend their very effective
and evocative writing skills to subjects less nauseating.

I do, however, appreciate those descriptions we've seen thus far.  I
pity of character (either literary or RPG) who earns the need to fill
similar roles.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
Message-ID: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).  
But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You 
know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or 
perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.

Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I 
need a bit of camp now and then.
________________
When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:38:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:38:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDHDKAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4F721.DEF69043@sympatico.ca>

Swordy wrote:

> Chumming is for guys not strong enough to be sternman :p
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
>
> >     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what
> lobsters
> >eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!

The job I truly hated, regularly cleaning backed up greased traps in a Burger
King.

A friend job that I fear to visualize:

Giving enemas to elephants, with a 27 pound suppository in my right hand (
gloved to the neck) and a hose in my left hand.  A broom and a shovel for the
resultant mess, nearby.

Although, I would take that over being the individual at a dog / cat food
company who does the taste testing to ensure the labels are correct.

OR

The number one job I do not want to know about or visualize:

The person at a thermometer company who personally tests every rectal
thermometer to meet the print on the packages that reads: "Every one of our
product personally tested to ensure quality."

Michael



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cory Davis)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>

Hi all

just a quick comment, I have been reading M16 vs everything else topic with 
interest and big game hunting rifles just came up, and I realised in all 
the descriptions of peoples campaigns, its all gauss rifles and FGMPs

I just like to say in our games (GT) the weapon of choice were always Gauss 
- LAG (basically, a LEMG-20 with a shorter barrel, I made it up 6 months 
before Ground Forces came out) as with a wide range of ammo it can do all 
sorts of things

we have used fletchettes for unarmoured targets, the APFSDSHD will 
penetrate about 300DR and once we used baton rounds when we had a job as 
repo men (they didn't mark the ship up too much). the best thing about them 
was after a firefight they don't leave many holes, in fact even if fighting 
opponents in battledress on board a ship, afterwards the ship is usually 
still useable, I say usually once we accidently broke the powerplant

I've always thought that due to the high level of personal armour in 
traveller, at high TLs weapons would be designed for penetration rather 
than ROF or explosive fragmentation

oh well back to the discussion of the pros and cons of M16s and big game rifles

(our other game is a pulp horror game and the elephant gun is a staple)

cheers

Cory


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:09:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:09:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
In-Reply-To: <200203310432.DAH01551@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4C5A5.15107.6D8006@localhost>

Hi John,

A little late (as usual, I'm many days behind in reading the 
TML), but I'd like to see a copy of this as well (or let me know
if you've posted it somewhere and I'll get it there).

thanks!

Rob D.

On 30 Mar 2002 at 23:32, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Just finished going through what will be a rather long 
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units 
> in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may 
> differ.
> 
> But..  I need more input.  I've just moved a current day 
> document a fair number of years into the future (out to TL10, 
> so far), and I would like to take it a bit further, say TL12.
> 
> I am interested in anyone's input concerning what might be 
> standard operating procedure (instructions to individual 
> soldiers, teams, and platoons).  Some of the detail I have is 
> down to the items to carry.
> 
> I am especially interested in what might be SOP in regards to 
> weapons, employment of specific weapons (such as, "always use 
> the plasma gun to break contact").
> 
> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing 
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages 
> so far.
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
> 

--
Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com
'Calvin, we will not have an anatomically correct snowman!'




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:10:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:10:48 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Sci Fi Books that are Ob Trav
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1791D@r1clex01.cbr.defe
 nce.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410230528.01ae0498@192.168.0.1>

At 01:59 PM 4/8/2002 +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
>I know I am a tad late in this thread but it occurred to be the other day
>that a very Ob Trav type series of books were the Amtrak Wars by Patrick
>Tilley. Hi Tech underground civilisation fighting mad max esq mutated
>barbarians. The descriptions of the underground settlements seem very trav,
>monorails, life support levels, you name it.
>
>I'm re-reading them now. I liked them as a teenager and, ten years later,
>they're still pretty good.
>
>In fact it would make a great GURPS sourcebook. Doug Berry come on down.

For more examples of Traveller, and Traveller like fiction, take a look at:
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/travfic.html>


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:13:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:13:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA> <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <20020411131133.A6552@freeman.little-possums.net>

Antony Farrell wrote:
> Contrary to popular opinion there are stars in the gaps between the
> arms, the spirals themselves being defined by bright stars. But as
> to how many stars and whether fuel sources could be found there?

There should be quite a few red and brown dwarfs in there, just fewer
bright stars.  The actual stellar density isn't a lot lower, as far as
I've heard.  On top of that, there's bound to be a whole bunch of
sub-planetary objects that should make excellent fuel sources.


> Assuming the ships were built to TL14 or 15 standard this means jump
> 5 or 6 maximum, and it is likely that in the "gaps" fuel sources may
> be further apart than this.

I doubt it.  Red dwarf stars aren't expected to be much less numerous
than in the arms, which means about 2 parsecs should get you from one
to the next.  They would have to be 30 times sparser to have a
moderate chance of reaching a dead-end, even if the ships only carry
one jump worth of fuel.  More likely they can carry enough for two
5-parsec jumps (or five 3-parsec ones) by carrying methane, ammonia,
and/or water instead of pure liquid hydrogen.  They can refine it
between jumps if they reach an area without hydrogen.  If the ships
can reduce volume by collapsing empty tanks, they can get even
further on a full load of fuel.

With good TL 12 sensors (e.g. dedicated sensor platforms which extend
after jump), they should be able to spot gas giants from tens of
parsecs away without any trouble.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <200204101359.DTL04671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204101359.DTL04671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020411132024.B6552@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> This backup power generation is probably nuclear fission, which
> allows the ship to potentially go without hydrogen (albeit without
> jumping anywhere) for some time.

I doubt it.  At Traveller tech levels, nuclear fusion is far more
efficient.  It is also far easier to collect fuel :)


> You may also remember Annic Nova.

I remember the rather ... vigorous ... discussion over it :/


> So let's consider a ship with a nuclear fission base 
> powerplant (to keep everyone nice and warm, and provide a 
> little extra power to charge jump accumulators a la Annic 
> Nova).

If you do that, you've just invented a starship that doesn't need jump
fuel at all, with all the strategic implications that follow.


> There might even be additional closed-cycle hydrogen/oxygen 
> fuel cells.

Why?  The chemical energy stored in 100 tons of fuel cells is about
that found in 1 kilogram of fusion fuel.  You're better off ditching
the fuel cells and putting in extra LHyd tankage.  Better still, put
in water tanks and run the stuff through your fuel processor.  Breathe
some of the waste oxygen and dump the rest.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020411004005.5784B27A85@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020410205654.00a53ce0@mailhost.efn.org>

>     When they met the Terrans, the Vilani were keeping a ZS boot on the
>necks of umpteen minor races, races and home worlds that the Vilani were
>able to keep quiet even as the Terrans racked up victory after victory.
>There is no mention of these plethora of minor races rising in revolt, all
>we hear about is their "welcoming their Terran liberators."

Riiiiiight.  And the United States singlehandedly beat Hitler and liberated 
Europe.  Just ask any contemporary 'Merkun.  (Okay, maybe the Limeys helped 
us out some, but not those dirty Reds, no sir.  And definitely not the 
French - all they know how to do is surrender.  What?  The Chinese?  Were 
they *in* WW2?)


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <20020410122225.B21755@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020411041811.1A229279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/10/02 at 12:22 PM,  "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> said:

>It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over
>me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
>clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
>from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
>awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar.

>I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

That sounds like K'kree hell. Only, they'd then have to *eat* their
work. <g>

It also reminds me of Regina UpPort's famous "Stuff on a Stick"
kiosk...that's where all the left over bits end up.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <no.id> from "John T. Kwon" at Apr 10, 2002 10:36:32 PM
Message-ID: <200204110433.g3B4Xpo25315@shell1.aracnet.com>

> Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).  
> But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You 
> know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or 
> perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.

I've always thought that the 2nd Series of 'Tom Swift' books would make for
some interesting background for a game.  The 1st series would probably make
good background for a 'Steam Punk' game.  Unfortunatly I've never gotten
ahold of any of the 'Tom Corbett' books.
 
> Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I 
> need a bit of camp now and then.

I picked up a copy a few years ago when it was reprinted, but have never
played it.  There is also GURPS: Lensman.

			Zane

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410023924.027e4ad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020411045414.13A9B279F9@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/10/02 at 02:42 AM,  laning <laning@wizard.net> said:

>At 10:46 AM 4/10/02 +1000, Mikey (Michael Hughes) wrote: >PBEM:
>>
>>I am thinking about running a PBEM D&D game for a friend. Does anyone know
>>of a How To website out there for running PBEM RPG sessions?

>I was thinking there's a need for the same thing.  Or at least will
>soon be  a need.  Perhaps interested parties should form a new
>mailing list, and  person or persons on that list be appointed to
>cull together an FAQ for WWW  posting?

http://www.pbem.com/  
    (how too's, mailing list server, ads for players and games,
utilities)

    http://www.pbem.com/howto/harrigan.html
        ("Running a Successful PBeM Campaign")

    http://www.pbem.com/howto/argosy.txt
        ("An Argosy of PBEM Advice", also accessable through pbem.com)

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/1999/11/19/text_gaming/index.html
    ("Word Games" from _Salon Magazine_, compares PBEM to other forms)

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/5835/soapbox.html
    ("PBEM Advice")

http://phoenyx.net/pbemlist.html
    (Phoenyx.net: list server, player and game ads, discussion lists)

http://shatteredworld.8m.com/advice.html
    ("Running Your Own PBEM": links to several articles)

http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Role-Playing/RPG.html
    ("What is roleplaying?")

And once you finish reading all that...<g>...you can come lurk in one,
or more, of my PBEM roleplaying games.  


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:12:13PM +0000
References: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020410225606.A23319@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:12:13PM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>
> The lobsterman removes and measures the damn things while you 
> fish out the used purse and put to fresh on it it's place.

For some value of `fresh'...

:-)

What a nasty sounding concoction.  OTOH, it almost sounds like the
_proper_ way to make Roman fish sauce.  For that, one gets a good mess
of fish and cleans them, then puts a layer of salt at the bottom of a
barrel.  Alternate layers of fish and salt up to the top, covering
over with a good bit of salt.  Store in the right conditions and a
kind of fermentation takes place in which the muscles dissolve and the
bones and scales break apart.  Eventually one opens the barrel and
drains off the liquid, leaving behind a gritty dregs.  The liquid is,
essentially, salty fish water.

Not nearly as disgusting as it sounds, I'm told.  Couldn't get me to
try it, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Taliban representative was explaining the good the Taliban had done
for the country.  He started his statement with `We have disarmed the
people...'                          --CNN special: Inside Afghanistan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:12:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:12:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20410.144847.1G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 10, 2002 02:48:47 PM
Message-ID: <200204110412.g3B4CU601389@localhost.uia.net>

Leonard writes:
> The problem is, different things depend on *different* ratios. 
> 
> Some depend on things like the charge to mass ratio of particles.
> Others depend on things like the ratios of the *squares* of of things.
> And some are things like square roots. Or weirder ratios. 
> 
> You *can't* make them all match. 

Even if all four fundamental forces & inertia (i.e. apparent
mass) drop simultaneously by the same factor? Wouldn't then
the ratios between these values (and those other values based
on them) all stay the same? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020411083544.A5842@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 11, 2002 08:35:44 AM
Message-ID: <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>

> Apart from that, your goal is to have the behaviour of atoms (and more
> complex systems) behave in the same way as before inertial
> suppression, correct?  This requires more than just changing the
> strength of forces.

The goal was to theoretically examine inertial suppression as a
means for making high accelleration (say anywhere from 50g to 1000g)
doable for a STL-based RPG, so that we'd be able to have speedy
interstellar travel from a subjective viewpoint (a few days to a few
weeks from the viewpoint of the crew, although it would be years
or even decades from the viewpoint of those not taking the trip).

In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
physics as we know it, and both of you know a lot more about
physics than I do, so it seems that I'm going to have to relent
and give up on this idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes
infeasible, and we're left with FTL (which has already been done
to death). Ah well... -Jim

> > To do so, I think we really need to look at the most simple
> > problems, involving only a single atom or a pair of atoms.
> 
> OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
> the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
> a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
> strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
> hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
> when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
> decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
> just one simple example.

Most of this flies over my head, but I'll see if I can figure it out and
then get back to ya later... -Jim
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>

Greetings!

In many of the games I've run or played in, the weapon of choice for short 
range combat is invariably a 10-gauge drum fed automatic shotgun (modeled 
after the Berlinetta (sp?) that some folks used to call the "vroom broom" 
or "street sweeper"). There are two things that we found strike terror in 
the hearts of the NPCs (and sometimes other players):

         1) The sound of a shotgun action being worked
         2) The realization that somebody might think shooting white 
phosphorus rounds looked like a good idea

The second point didn't occur until after I had unloaded several rounds 
into a building of hostiles.  It seems that using staggered loads of 
different types (HEAP, HE, WP, Mercury Fulminate, KEAP, and Flechettes) had 
never occurred to anybody else in the game and the damage to the hostiles 
was sort of mind boggling for them.  :-)

Of course we could also talk about the 90cm grenade launcher that turns 
people into portable artillery units.........

I love things that go *BOOM*!   ;-)

Best regards,

Charles

At 12:37 PM 4/11/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Hi all
>
>just a quick comment, I have been reading M16 vs everything else topic 
>with interest and big game hunting rifles just came up, and I realised in 
>all the descriptions of peoples campaigns, its all gauss rifles and FGMPs
>
>I just like to say in our games (GT) the weapon of choice were always 
>Gauss - LAG (basically, a LEMG-20 with a shorter barrel, I made it up 6 
>months before Ground Forces came out) as with a wide range of ammo it can 
>do all sorts of things
>
>we have used fletchettes for unarmoured targets, the APFSDSHD will 
>penetrate about 300DR and once we used baton rounds when we had a job as 
>repo men (they didn't mark the ship up too much). the best thing about 
>them was after a firefight they don't leave many holes, in fact even if 
>fighting opponents in battledress on board a ship, afterwards the ship is 
>usually still useable, I say usually once we accidently broke the powerplant
>
>I've always thought that due to the high level of personal armour in 
>traveller, at high TLs weapons would be designed for penetration rather 
>than ROF or explosive fragmentation
>
>oh well back to the discussion of the pros and cons of M16s and big game 
>rifles
>
>(our other game is a pulp horror game and the elephant gun is a staple)
>
>cheers
>
>Cory
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411013014.029c3e10@pop.wizard.net>

At 04:51 PM 4/10/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I think the hint was 180-200 lbs dangerous game (meaning people)

Precisamundo.  The idea is what you are shooting at will and can gladly 
kill you if you give it the chance.  Different from trying to avoid chasing 
your deer while it runs across half the county before bleeding to death.


>My 'plinking' load
>is a 405 gn hard cast bullet in front of 62 gns of 4895.

LOL, that's some pretty serious plinking.  :->


>Plenty of bang for
>just about anything.  I suspect the 500 gn monolithic solids would work well
>on most game too, as well as the occasional car.

Always handy when your daughter gets old enough to date teenaged boys in 
hot rods.

>Note that this is strictly a short range load.  No 600 meter head shots.

Understood.

--Laning





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:32:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:32:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410222548.02170a50@mail.verizon.net>

Oh boy do I remember it, and somewhere I have the rules packed away.

In fact, I was having a discussion this afternoon with a coworker about 
whether anybody would ever have the testicular fortitude to make a series 
of movies based on the Lensman or Family D'Alembert series. The Japanese 
did an animated version of the Lensman series in the 80s, but we're pretty 
well convinced that in this politically correct time that either the 
studios would edit the jingoism right out of the movie or just say no.

Of course, somewhere I still have notes on a Lensman campaign from a few 
years ago.........

Then again, I think a fun game would be set in Harrison's Stainless Steel 
Rat universe (in fact, I've played in that setting several times).

An interesting game might be one that is either based on Asimov's 
Foundation series, Robot series, or just on "The Caves of Steel".

Best regards,

Charles



At 10:36 PM 4/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).
>But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You
>know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or
>perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.
>
>Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I
>need a bit of camp now and then.
>________________
>When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, 
>they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often 
>use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters 
>of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes 
>over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. 
>Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think 
>most would consider truly lamentable.
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F148K7S8MyBuN6QXhY00000aa29@hotmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn writes:

>Excuse me? How much ammo are you thinking of? For dangerous game
>hunting (the original question) 20 rounds is more than enough, and
>there's no real need for a 10 pound battle rifle. A 7.5 pound light
>sporter will do fine (and that's what my father's PH Magestic from the
>early 60's weighed with scope, etc.), and that's less weight than an
>M16A2.

I interpreted the original question as inquiring about stopping power, using 
a theoretical human sized dangerous animal to gain insight into what caliber 
would be appropriate for stopping a dangerous human ("And I'm curious if the 
following question will produce interesting results").  If you were really 
interested in shooting dangerous game, and not the analogy, of course a 
sporter rifle and a less ammo would be appropriate.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:36:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:36:23 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>; from res0i3sf@verizon.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:25:21PM -0700
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au> <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20020410233434.B23469@4dv.net>

I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
inexpensive ammunition.  There are all sorts of nice & nifty rifles,
and I realise that the ammunition's not going to be cheap--but I'm
really not up to paying 50c a round unless I really, really have to.

Thanks much!

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their
pockets for new vocabulary.                     --James D. Nicoll

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
References: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411013453.029c0450@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert Boleyn says:

>My first choice would probably be a .375 H&H. Much though I admire
>Weatherbys they cost too much and are generally over-powered if you're
>using solids - they'd tend to horribly over-penetrate anything but the
>heaviest game. With expansive bullets I'd drop to a .338 Winchester or
>.340 Weatherby unless in Africa, in which case the .375's would be the
>way to go, IMO. .416s and .458/.460s are good vs buffs, elephants, etc.
>but aren't long-range rounds, so you'd need a second rifle for those
>300-500 yard shots on eland, etc.

Those are the same kinds of conclusions I made from studying books about 
this kind of stuff about 20 years ago.

People who are liking lighter rounds are also exceptionally skilled shots 
and I think factoring in their ability at shot placement more than I myself 
would be comfortable with.  Heard way too many stories from excellent shots 
who lost deer that they good pretty good hits on using .30-'06.  I'm not 
saying they won't get their one-shot kills with lighter rounds.  Just that 
I'd rather not rely on that kind of thing if it were me.

Some of the recent posts on the topic to the TML are modifying my opinions, 
but only somewhat.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411014019.028f40d0@pop.wizard.net>

John T Kwon:
<<<snip>>>
>The situations that Traveller characters find themselves in
>are rarely more than a few opponents, and most are armed
>(depending on the GM, of course) with pistols and short range
>weapons.

Very much depends on the referee as well as the players.  I let them get 
into whichever kind of mischief they choose for themselves.  If tick off 
the Mafia or the city police, they have to deal with that and if they tick 
off the banditos in the Sierra Madre while mining gold they have to deal 
with that.  Or maybe they're dropped by the OSS deep into Burma and have to 
hook up with a stone age tribe to conduct guerilla warfare against the 
Japanese.  (I recommend reading a book called 'The Blue Eyed Shan' btw, for 
people interested in this kind of thing.)

<<<more snippage>>>

What is a PH?

My own characters in other Traveller games have often preferred gauss 
rifles, light machineguns, assault rifles, submachineguns, and blade 
weapons, or even bare hands.  As well as grenade launchers, LAGs, shotguns, 
laser carbines or rifles, FGMPs or PGMPs, and an assortment of hand 
grenades.  I try to have the character own and be familiar with all that 
kind of stuff, and then try to have them take the ones that are best for 
the tactical situation and terrain the character is expecting to be 
in.  Pistols and big game rifles have never been big on my list for my 
characters, even though I've tried to make characters who had those are 
their fortes.

In my most recent gun fight in a "Traveller" game, I carried a 
submachinegun, grenades, and great armor as five of us invaded the local 
despot's palace on an impoverished TL 5 to 6 world.  I didn't bother with 
an edged weapon since the character was awesome at unarmed combat and 
improvised weapons.  Left me more weight allowance for ammo.  Our other big 
gun carried a light machinegun.  He didn't make it.  Wasn't wearing enough 
armor, IMHO.  It's a beer and pretzels referee.

That was face to face Traveller gunfights.  Tod Glenn has been putting my 
character through some hoops in his PBEM game, more recently.  He only has 
Rifle-1 for firearms skills, the rest of his combat skills are for 
melee.  He used a battered carbine at 50 meters to kill a very corrupt cop 
who was sitting in a parked car.  It seemed fair at the time.  <EG>  And 
we're nearing the end of a basically dense jungle patrolling combat between 
an enemy equipped to just shy of battle dress (carrying a lot of the 
nastiest weaponry and gizmos Tod has posted on travellercentral.com) and 
the player characters, equipped to a motley standard of high tech combat 
gear.  I used my high-tech bullpup-style assault rifle with special ammo 
(alternating HVAPFSDS long rod penetrator and HE) and got two of them so 
far.  But in about ten minutes, all the PCs are going to get wiped out by 
nerve gas _plus_ EMP weapons conveniently proposed here on the TML.  Guess 
the Evil GM couldn't wait to try out his new toy on some players.  :->

Don't worry kids.  Come back next Sunday matinee for the next exciting 
installment of 'How Will the PCs Escape the Cliffhanger?'.  Your brave 
heroes are bound to come up with something to escape the elaborate death 
trap.  Probably.  LOL.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F97SgeR4UIS42NXHwGr0001bbad@hotmail.com>

Robert A. Uhl:

>I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
>general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
>to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
>inexpensive ammunition.  There are all sorts of nice & nifty rifles,
>and I realise that the ammunition's not going to be cheap--but I'm
>really not up to paying 50c a round unless I really, really have to.

I think you will have a hard time finding a rifle that is adequate for elk 
that is going to cost less than $0.50 per round.  I'd get a 30-06, but 
anything .270 caliber and above would probably be adequate.

As far as rifles, Savages are good and cheap.  Ugly though.  To be honest, 
there is not much difference between the bottom of the line Savage, Ruger, 
Winchester or Remington.  The nice thing about the latter two is that, if 
you ever decide to do so, you can upgrade the rifle easily.  All 4 brands 
will do the job and last several generations, and they all get pretty good 
accuracy out of the box.  Expect to spend at least $3-400 or so, which might 
include a cheap scope.  Check Wal-Mart.  Get a synthetic stock.  These 
rifles are so cheap, that it might be hard to find a used one for less.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020411083544.A5842@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020411160312.A6708@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
> both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
> physics as we know it,

That it does.  :)

I've worked out a set of variations on all the fundamental constants
that works.  However, upon doing the equations it just works out
equivalent to measuring things in grams instead of kilograms. :/

There was no *real* difference at all, including interaction with the
outside world.  Oh well :(



> so it seems that I'm going to have to relent and give up on this
> idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes infeasible, and we're left
> with FTL (which has already been done to death).

Almost all forms of FTL violate physics as we know it, too.  Don't
take my insistence that inertia suppression doesn't work with known
physics and chemistry to mean that I'd choke and barf if I saw it in a
game.  I quite enjoyed the "Lensman" series, after all :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411023119.028f5a00@pop.wizard.net>

John T Kwon:
>Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I
>need a bit of camp now and then.

A few parts of it seemed to have been photocopied straight from Traveller.

It was aptly named.  I had some very good times in the one Space Opera game 
I played in.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:31:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Hagler)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:31:24 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <20020410233434.B23469@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B8DA7B5A.46DE8%khagler@orange-road.com>

on 4/10/2002 10:34 PM, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
> general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
> to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
> inexpensive ammunition.

If you've got lots of money for the rifle, the Steyr Scout in .308 is good.
It's $2800 new, though. I'm saving up for one.  :-)

<http://www.steyrscout.org/>
-- 
                              Ken Hagler

|          ICQ#: 34591293         |   For PGP key send mail with  |
|   http://www.orange-road.com/   |    subject "Send PGP Key".    |
|   And tho' we are not now that strength which in old days       |
|   Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are --Tennyson  |


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018477349.495.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155047.01de3120@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411023756.028f5390@pop.wizard.net>

At 03:22 PM 4/10/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Actually, no, the drug could easily be responsible.  Much of the reason for
>people falling down when shot is that they know they ought to, and drugs can
>dull the pain response and/or make you too stupid to realize you've been shot.
>
>The fact that he stood there are got shot several times by an M60 may suggest
>why the use of combat drugs is discouraged.  People who are heavily 
>drugged are
>not usually known for their good tactics.

I'm not going to agree with you, except for the part about drugs and 
tactics.  It seems to me that the less personal familiarity people have 
with drugs, and the more they hate the class of people who they feel use 
drugs, the more willing they are to ascribe superhuman abilities to drug 
users who are shot.  We're each entitled to our separate opinions.

I'm most inclined to believe that the guy being repeatedly hit with M-60 
machinegun bursts was some kind of weird fluke regardless of drug 
use.  Otherwise, such an incident would be so routine that it would not 
have been noted as unusual in the book.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411024705.01dc26f0@pop.wizard.net>

Charles McKnight:
>In many of the games I've run or played in, the weapon of choice for short 
>range combat is invariably a 10-gauge drum fed automatic shotgun (modeled 
>after the Berlinetta (sp?) that some folks used to call the "vroom broom" 
>or "street sweeper"). There are two things that we found strike terror in 
>the hearts of the NPCs (and sometimes other players):
>
>         1) The sound of a shotgun action being worked
>         2) The realization that somebody might think shooting white 
> phosphorus rounds looked like a good idea
>
>The second point didn't occur until after I had unloaded several rounds 
>into a building of hostiles.  It seems that using staggered loads of 
>different types (HEAP, HE, WP, Mercury Fulminate, KEAP, and Flechettes) 
>had never occurred to anybody else in the game and the damage to the 
>hostiles was sort of mind boggling for them.  :-)
>
>Of course we could also talk about the 90cm grenade launcher that turns 
>people into portable artillery units.........

:::wipes a tear from the corner of one eye:::

"Son, you make me proud."

Warms my cockles, that does.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <20020411045414.13A9B279F9@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410023924.027e4ad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411024937.01dc7010@pop.wizard.net>

Wow, hadn't realized that 'Salon' had already visited the PBEM world.

Thanks for the good URLs.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410222548.02170a50@mail.verizon.net>
References: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411025215.029cb0e0@pop.wizard.net>

Charles McKnight:
>Then again, I think a fun game would be set in Harrison's Stainless Steel 
>Rat universe (in fact, I've played in that setting several times).

I'm for it!!!

Get Spielberg to executive produce it.  He's a lover of pulp SF.  Then 
you'll have money.  But don't let near the script or the director.  He 
pasteurizes everything into pablum.

And don't forget voice overs of Slippery Jim's interior monologue.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
Message-ID: <memo.437377@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410180651.009f12d0@mindspring.com>
When in the British army, I got bawled out for not wearing my stripes on 
combat clothing (they were correctly displayed on other uniforms). I 
pointed out that in the field: -

a. I didn't want the enemy to know what rank I was.
b. My own people knew me already.

I then added some removable stripes, which only went on when there was an 
officer around :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.
Formerly Sergeant, 22nd (Cheshire) Regiment.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 01:01:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 00:01:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <memo.437376@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020411041811.1A229279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
>It also reminds me of Regina UpPort's famous "Stuff on a Stick"
>kiosk...that's where all the left over bits end up.

Don't say that, my character in Mole's PBeM just had his supper there :-(

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 01:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Apr 11 00:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020411024231.00967100@minn.net>

At 12:37 PM 4/11/2002 +1000, Cory wrote:

>I've always thought that due to the high level of personal armour in 
>traveller, at high TLs weapons would be designed for penetration rather 
>than ROF or explosive fragmentation
>
>oh well back to the discussion of the pros and cons of M16s and big game
rifles

Back when I was involved in the patriot movement (I posted the ASCII text
of the first issue of THE RESISTER on usenet) I bought a STG 58 (Austrian
FAL) parts kit and had a gunsmith rebuild it on a semi-auto D.S. Arms
reciever. I also bought 25 magazines, 4000+ rounds of British surplus
ammunition and a ELCAN optical sight for it. 

My MTF transexual landlady asked me if the glowing green triangle in the
ELCAN reticle was for shooting gay martians. When I showed my rifle to the
fellow who edited THE RESISTER he moved the selector switch to what was the
full-auto postion and gave me the look of child expecting a REALLY NEAT
Christmas present.

"NO NO NO N0, Steve," I said, "it doesn't do that, I tried it already."


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 01:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 00:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperial OpSix Force
In-Reply-To: <20020410225606.A23319@4dv.net>
References: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:12:13PM +0000
Message-ID: <3CB4F99B.6983.2E9659D@localhost>

It=92s a hot day as the press core sits on the open benches in front of a 
small stage adorn with several strange looking devices.  They could only 
assume they are weapons since this is a press conference of the Imperial 
Marine training center.  A lone marine petty officer steps forward. 

=93This hour you will be introduced to our newest training technique the 
OpSix force formally called the Starfish Regiment.  This united is 
designed to represent the Hiver federation.   All the troops are not only 
versed in the weapons, tactics and techniques of the Hivers, but also to 
insure the most realistic training they are all experts in the use of the 
Mark II mock Hiver Environmental Suit.=94

At this moment a shirk comes up from the back of the press core as four 
strange creatures appear armed and looking deadly.  Another appears on 
stage and with its many arms [wiggle] [wave wave] [flagellate] [wave 
point flail].


=93Its ok its just members of the OpSix force.  That was just a simple 
demonstration of how realistic the suits are and now Lt. Sherow will take 
over.  A woman seems to unfold herself from the suit.  

=93What I did when I got on stage was give you our Motto.  Experts at 
Retreating=85 That=92s just what we want you to think.  Now I will continu=
e 
explain how this force works.=94

The dog and pony show drags on


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410222548.02170a50@mail.verizon.net>
References: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <v04020a15b8dad9a13fa9@[192.168.1.5]>

>In fact, I was having a discussion this afternoon with a coworker about
>whether anybody would ever have the testicular fortitude to make a series
>of movies based on the Lensman or Family D'Alembert series. The Japanese
>did an animated version of the Lensman series in the 80s, but we're pretty

Have you seen it?  I saw it back in '93, as I remember it was a lot more
like Star Wars rather than the Lensman series.  Still, I enjoyed it, and
wouldn't mind getting a copy of it on DVD.

>well convinced that in this politically correct time that either the
>studios would edit the jingoism right out of the movie or just say no.

I'm scared to think what a mess a studio would make out of it!

			Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|          PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum.         |
|                http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/               |

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F217LltyKF5Q6JVW8s20001d6e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20411.003056.1J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Mr. Erickson,
>
>      Yes, as your other posts illustrated, a planet is a VERY BIG place!  
> Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the 
> conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.
>
> In another bout of hyperbole, I posted, "... the Ziro Sirka would have, 
> could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it glowed."
>
>      "Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
> Millions, hundreds of millions."
>
>      But of course.  Would you care to hazard a guess just what sort of 
> firepower it would have taken for the ZS to remove Terra as a threat?  How 
> many warheads, kinetic strikes, spinal mount hits, and plain old iron bombs 
> would it have taken "de-industrialize" Terra?

Probably more than was practical. Especially given that humans were
pretty well spread out in the solar system as well. 

Exact figures would require knowing a lot more about what was where and
how it was defended. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:18:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:18:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGGCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20411.002719.0T1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> >
>> >A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
>> >bone from a walrus penis.  See
>> >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html
>>
> So when I tell my girlfriend that I've got a "Boner",
> I'm really speaking Eskimo?

Nope. Humans are one of the mammals that *don't* have a penis bone. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:20:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:20:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410025314.02b56df0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20411.003332.4n3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I have too vague an image of how canonical nuclear dampers will precisely 
> behave to really describe all how they will help, and what will be beyond 
> their help.  It probably varies quite a bit from one referee's TU to 
> another's.  I'd guess some referees only have them work if they're focused 
> on ground zero at the time of the explosion, while others let you do 
> whatever kind of prevention and clean up sounds theoretically within the 
> limits of such a technology.

Stopping a bomb from going off requires pretty good focus. Accelerating
decay doesn't and (as I recall) is well within the abilities of the
dampers as described in official source materials.

I tend to consider them *less* useful than the original descriptions,
simply because that decay energy has to go *somewhere*. It won't just
disappear. Thus my comments about heat limiting the speed of cleanup.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:21:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:21:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409223004.02132f28@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <20411.003635.3k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Which reminds me. Some day I need to sit down and try to figure out what 
>>would be required to produce a "burned off" world such as appears in some 
>>of Norton's books.
>
> While I'm not familiar with Norton's "burned off" worlds (I don't tend to 
> read Norton), the easiest way to completely clobber a planet with Traveller 
> technology is to drop a few big rocks on it.  With Traveller maneuver 
> drives, it should be relatively easy to nudge a number of asteroids in the 
> 100,000dton or bigger class into an intercept trajectory with a planet, and 
> that should be all that's needed.

Norton's examples are basicly worlds that got the entire surface
slagged. 

A few didn't quite get it that bad. And most were done with "dirty"
weapons. 

On Terra much of North Ammerica is a lifeless wasteland that is still
too radioactive to enter safely centuries later. Again, lots of
"radioactive glass" surface. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:23:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:23:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <002101c1e027$4452ada0$3cb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <20411.004119.4s9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> You seem to be fairly consistently a couple of days behind on the
> list, BTW.  Are you just behind, or is it something to do with the
> exotic 19th Century computers you use?

I was sick, and I'm still trying to catch up. 

And sorry, but the computers I use aren't *that* old. Well, the abaci,
are, but they aren't used for email.

This box isn't all that old. AMD K6-2/500 cpu, 320 meg of RAMN, etc. It
just so happens that it's running OS/2 and the mail software is running
in a DOS window.

Viruses don't have a chance. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAAEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Robert A. Uhl wrote :
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:54:19AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> >
> > Shakepear didn't have any copyrights on his work -
> > they didn't exist at that time.
>
> That was indeed part of my point...

Of course, Shakespeare was _lucky_ that copyright didn't exist,
or he'd have had his arse sued off by the people he stole his
plays from.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:53:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:53:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEELHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

People are discussing "open source" or free game rules and
claiming it's going to put game designers out of work.

This is basically crap.

FUDGE is sold, and it is completely freely available at the same
time.

GURPS Lite is given away, as were the basic rules for Alternity,
among others.

The D20 system is "open source" and there are many designers
making money off it, (or planning to make money off it) including
Hunter Gordon on this list.

Personally, I think D20 is  a "Bad Thing", not because it won't
make money, but because it will stifle creativity in mechanics.
Designers will face the choice "shall I design my own system,
whichh might fail, or shall I design a game based on D20 which
will probably guarantee me some sales I wouldn't have otherwise."
But that's just my opinion, and because I don't like the idea of
"character levels" in games.

People mentioned "Gates vs Linux".
In the D20 case though, it is like Gates deciding to open source
Windows 2000!

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:55:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:55:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8d974f770c0@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :

> But we are talking about security measure that are
> intrusive enough that the are a hassle to the day
> to day operation of a ship.

Yes.

Just as being searched for screwdrivers and penknives is
currently a hassle in the day to day operation of an airline.

> Some people are going to know about them.

Everyone will be _told_ about them. They won't be secret.

> Unless they are important  enough to make a _significant_
change in costs,
> another company will be able to draw at least some customers
away buy not
> having such intrusive requirements.

The requirements are set by the SPA and the local civilian
government, not the insurance company, as I already said :

> >The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
> >required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
> >may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
> >starport will do it (for important safety and
> >financial reasons,would you want an unwarranted vehicle
> >approaching an extremely expensve space station?), there won't
> >be any real choice except for the captains to take the risk
> >of not doing it and not go to the better starports
>
> The presumption is that every insurance company will have such
> requirements.

No, the presumption is that no insurance company will accept
liability for an illegal ship.

Because of that, if the ship owners wish to be able to recover
the cost of their starship in the event of an accident, they will
attempt to ensure their ship is legal at all times.

> That requires that you show that such requirements
> make a significant difference in insurance costs.

I suspect that any company willing to knowingly insure an illegal
ship, and be expected to pay out, will charge ten times, if not
more, than the normal going rate. And as such an organization is
almost certainly going to be criminal anyway, they may charge the
additional premiums and still not pay out.

> Otherwise insurance companies have no reason to
> push unpopular requirements.
>
> However, if you can show that such requirements are
> needed to keep theft down to a reasonable level, then
> you don't need to invoke insurance companies requiring it.
>
> In the end, invoking insurance companies is not a way
> of justifying  regulations that don't have other basis.

I agree.

However, as already stated,  the insurance companies are not the
justification for the regulations, the starport authority and
civilian govermnment is the justification for the regulations.

Insurance is just the reason the owner of the ship wants to obey
the regulations. After all, the owner may not care that there is
the possibility of a hijack, and may not care how much damage the
hijacked ship does, as long as they know they will be paid out by
the insurance company, all the ship owner has to worry about is
replacing their ship. The insurance company has to worry about
liability for damage to other ships and facilities.

I suspect that in the event of a hijack, the insurance company
will _not_ be your friend, they will be trying _very_ hard to
prove that you did not have adequate safeguards to avoid paying
out the ninety billion in damages to the residents of the suburb
the ship crashed in. If they succeeed, then the liability suit
will go against the owner of the ship.

Have a look at the completely OTT security that is currently
being applied to domestic air travel.
Confiscation of pen-knives and scissors is admittedly stupid, but
this is the sort of stupidity that you will have to deal with in
the SPA and local governments.

Think about the difference in damage potential between a 747 and
a subsidized merchant.
Then think about the greater effect that damage will have on an
orbital starport.

Security on a starship will be required to be tight to prevent
"passengers" from taking control of the starship and flying it
into the starport, or other targets of oppurtunity.

Without proof of the requisite security, you will not be allowed
near the "better" starports or planets, just as any airlines that
are not willing to implement the silly current restrictions would
not be allowed to operate out of major airports.

I agree that on current sea-going ships security is relatively
lax (And a lot of people equate traveller merchants to sea-going
merchants). But changing that will take just a single incident
where a terrorist group takes over a large tanker, turns it into
a floating bomb or biological weapon release system, and sails it
into a heavily populated harbour and sets it off. I believe this
has already been done in fiction, and one has only to look at the
Halifax incident to see the potential for destruction.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:57:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:57:17 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
In-Reply-To: <20020410123043.C21755@4dv.net>
References: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020410123043.C21755@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020411015015.56c0a4db.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> So he went on down to the consul, they all had a good laugh, and the
> letter informing the German registry that Calvert is approved for use
> in America was sent.
> 
> OTOH, I daresay Germany has no-one name Moon Unit or Dweezil, so the
> policy is not entirely incorrect.

In Sweden, the Department of Statistics maintains a webpage where it is
possible to query for the number of people with any name. Very
entertaining.

Calvert : 1 (male)
Sauron : 1 (male)  -  !!!
Legolas : 5 (male)
Gandalf : 15 (male)
Grus : 19 (male)  -  This name means "gravel"

And my favorite:

Skywalker : 9 (male)

The persons who have this name have it as a middle name. They are probably
named "Luke Skywalker Svensson" or something similiar.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:59:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:59:10 2002
Subject: [TML] test
In-Reply-To: <3CB4BE9A.1155267C@premier.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204101430010.1171-100000@rhylanor>
 <3CB4BE9A.1155267C@premier.net>
Message-ID: <20020411015618.314b70fa.jenry023@student.liu.se>

John Groth wrote:
> Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled in terror, and you
> would not have been informed.

Had this been a real emergency, you would all be dead by now.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 04:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeffrey Malone)
Date: Thu Apr 11 03:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Lost Causes
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17951@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <00dc01c1e140$61de4e00$a92554d2@1338700057>

To paraphrase (IIRC) Harry Summers in 'On Strategy', a (possibly apocryphal)
conversation between a US Army officer and a PAVN officer, some years later:

USA - "You know, you never defeated us on the battlefield"

PAVN - "Quite correct.  And also irrelevant."

The Tet Offensive was a great example of the 'CNN Effect' well ahead of
time, of perception having more effect than reality.  The NLF was utterly
devested in 1968, ultimately leading to cadres from the North taking control
of the struggle in the South.  But that was not the perception of the voting
public, and the rest is history...


----- Original Message -----
From: Hughes, Michael <Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 8:19 AM
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Lost Causes


> The Dougster:
> In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat
> in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?
>
> Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public
> opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the
> region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.
>
> Mikey:
> The US were never really going to win that one. As Uncle Ho is fondly
> remembered saying 'I am willing to lose 10 men for each one of yours'.
Hell,
> I think the toll in Vietnam for the conflict was about a million on the
> Communist side. So given loses of 50k for the US that's like 20 to 1.
>
> Besides it's a bit hard to 'save' a country that won't save itself.
>
> My 0.02 of course, so don't roast me slowly over a verbal BBQ.
>
> I'm studying Vietnam now at uni. I particularly enjoyed the battle of Ap
Bac
> (?), which got turned into a major propaganda piece about the South wiping
> the floor with Communist insurgents. When the smoke cleared they found
just
> 3 bodies....
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 05:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 04:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204111145.DVD01524@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert Uhl asks about a GP rifle
<snip>
A Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 for deer. Just right.

Not truly reliable for elk, but it's been done.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 05:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 04:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204111147.DVD01644@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning asks
>what is a PH?

Professional Hunter
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 06:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr 11 05:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Real-world biometrics
Message-ID: <F135SenAbcZbxX9QeCw00005b24@hotmail.com>

Someone recently mentioned a well-established trick in
fiction of defeating a thumbprint scanner by cutting
off an authorized person's thumb.  Real life appears
to have caught up...

"Biometrics Can Be Painful"
current (April 11, 2002) issue at http://www.w2knews.com

Synopsis:
A company placed automated bank teller machines at mining
installations in South Africa, and used thumbprint ID.
Within weeks, they had to take them out - there were
too many incidents of people getting attacked and having
their thumbs cut off.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 06:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 11 05:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RealLife(tm) Battledress, next chapter
References: <20020411004005.5784B27A85@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <204AD90A.F27541C2@earthlink.net>

This is kinda fun...

http://www.aro.army.mil/soldiernano/


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 06:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Thu Apr 11 05:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <3CB4F721.DEF69043@sympatico.ca>; from stosh@sympatico.ca on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:38:25PM -0400
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDHDKAA.tml@downport.com> <3CB4F721.DEF69043@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20020411083438.B9890@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:38:25PM -0400, Michael Stasica wrote:
> 
> A friend job that I fear to visualize:
> 
> Giving enemas to elephants, with a 27 pound suppository in my right hand (
> gloved to the neck) and a hose in my left hand.  A broom and a shovel for the
> resultant mess, nearby.
> 
ISTR an incident where an unfortunate person got caught in and buried
by the generous outflow with fatal results...

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Real-world biometrics
In-Reply-To: <F135SenAbcZbxX9QeCw00005b24@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411085821.02b4ef78@192.168.0.1>

At 08:14 AM 4/11/2002 -0400, Walt Smith wrote:
>Someone recently mentioned a well-established trick in
>fiction of defeating a thumbprint scanner by cutting
>off an authorized person's thumb.  Real life appears
>to have caught up...
>"Biometrics Can Be Painful"
>current (April 11, 2002) issue at http://www.w2knews.com
>Synopsis:
>A company placed automated bank teller machines at mining
>installations in South Africa, and used thumbprint ID.
>Within weeks, they had to take them out - there were
>too many incidents of people getting attacked and having
>their thumbs cut off.

Ah...South Africa...home of the flame thrower anti-carjacking device...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F195GoE1k8LN6FWe7Xl0000b978@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB635B9.12478.8D0AC6@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 0:35, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>      The Imperial China the "Southern Barbarians" began contacting in the 
> 1500's was in one of it's disintergration phases.  The Ming were on the way 
> out, the Manchus were trying to get in, pirates and warlords abounded.  The 
> periphary was unravelling, Taiwan was a pirate kingdom that the Chinese paid 
> the Dutch to tackle for them, Korea either lost to the Japanese or 
> independent, Tibet gone, the far west lost to various horse peoples.  The 
> Ming were straining every nerve just to keep the lid on, and they failed.  
> After them, the Manchu were nothing more than a foreign dynasty simply 
> trying to remain in power.  They restored nothing of China's former power or 
> borders, even losing more territory as their dynasty went on.
>      Does any of that sound like the Ziru Sirka to you?

Yep. The Vilani already had problems when the Terrans turned up. They 
no longer had a monoploy on jump drives and were  suffering from piracy 
from outside their borders by minor races. That's why they thought the 
Terrans were just a bunch of pirates to start with.

>      When they met the Terrans, the Vilani were keeping a ZS boot on the 
> necks of umpteen minor races, races and home worlds that the Vilani were 
> able to keep quiet even as the Terrans racked up victory after victory.  
> There is no mention of these plethora of minor races rising in revolt, all 
> we hear about is their "welcoming their Terran liberators."  How were the 
> Vilani able to keep all those minor races down, how were they able to play 
> power politics with Vargr merc pawns, how were they able to still do all of 
> that, and STILL lose to a single system polity?

Because the Vargr were not that far from Vland, and were an altogether 
higher prioroty. As for the minor races - the Vilani controlled the 
transport and information flow, so the subject races may not have even 
heard of the Terrans until they were right inside their subsector and 
impossible for the Vilani to hide any longer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6380C.25968.9620C5@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 20:36, John T. Kwon wrote:

> If you also consider that Traveller gun combat is at about 
> the same range as a Cape Buffalo encounter, and you're 
> probably going to live for about as many shots (two, maybe 
> three), then I think that whatever makes a good Cape Buffalo 
> weapon might make a good Traveller combat weapon.
> 
> Let's see.  We'll make it .416 Remington, since we can still 
> get Speer tungsten core solids. 

Don't like the .416 Remington (unreasoning dislike - nothing I can pin 
down). I'd take either a .416 Rigby, a .458 Winchester or a .378 
Weatherby - the latter having the advantage of being a fine long-range 
weapon.
 
> The rifle should be a 4-shot controlled-feed pre-64 
> Winchester action (with fixed ejector).  Barrel length should 
> be 22 inches, and we'll go with a muzzle brake.

That's a horridly short barrel for a round like any of the .416s, and 
with a muzzle brake on it you're not going to be making friends of your 
allies, that's for sure.

> The stock 
> should be optimized for firing on your hind legs, and we'll 
> put a Trijicon Reflex sight on top, with express sights just 
> in case that gets broken.

Now this I can agree on, though a x2 - x5 vari-power scope would be a 
nice altenative (gives the option of longer shots).

> Get yourself a pouch that holds 20 rounds, maybe keep 40 
> rounds in your pack.  More than enough for most Traveller 
> adventures.

Yep.

I was thinking of another choice earlier today - the Lee-Enfield SMLE 
or No4. The .303 British is a fine round, and a bit milder than the .30-
06 or 7.92x57mm, and the Mark VII round is more wounding than you might 
think, thanks to careful design - it had an aluminium or peat insert in 
the nose of the bullet, making it 'rear heavy'. The bullet also has an 
exposed lead base (like most ball ammo of the time), which means that 
its rear is quite weak. The combination of these two features results 
in a bullet that tumbles rapidly in flesh (for a full-bore round) and 
flattens at the rear, resulting in something that spins like a sycamore 
seed. We once fired some into a 40 pound block of cheddar and the 
'wound track' was interesting and rather larger than that of .30-06 
ball, though not so large as that of a .30-06 soft nose. Of course this 
isn't a perfect demo, as cheese won't spring back from the temporary 
cavity the way a person's body will, but still.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB638C4.8619.98EF71@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 22:36, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).  
> But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You 
> know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or 
> perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.
> 
> Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I 
> need a bit of camp now and then.

Played it for years, back in the day. A friend of mine maintains that 
it's ruined his ability to enjoy newer SF games - they just aren't 
_real_ SF rpgs without Gene Day ink drawings, many typos and large 
sections of unplayable rules.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet... or even
the moon?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Huxton" <red@archonet.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:04 PM
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters


> Idle speculation from an idle speculator, and it must have been asked
> before...
>
> We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any upper limit
> ("that's no moon...")
>
> I had a sudden vision of a jump-capable planet working its way around the
> galaxy sucking gas giants dry between jumps.
>
> Any gearheads got a spreadsheet that can handle this?
>
> Oh, no cheating of course, you have to do this using LBB Book 2 rules at
TL13
> and bring the cost in at under 100MCr ;-)
>
> - Richard Huxton
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:37:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:37:08 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <20020410233434.B23469@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>; from res0i3sf@verizon.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:25:21PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CB63A21.15419.9E4377@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 23:34, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
> general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
> to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
> inexpensive ammunition.  There are all sorts of nice & nifty rifles,
> and I realise that the ammunition's not going to be cheap--but I'm
> really not up to paying 50c a round unless I really, really have to.
> 
> Thanks much!

My advice would be a .30-06, as it'll work on just about anything you 
have in the US (though I believe that most people consider it a little 
small for brown bear). If you're concerned about recoil something like 
a 7x57mm or 7mm Remington express would be fine, or a .243 winchester, 
6mm Remington or .25-06 for that matter. Now, that was lots of help, 
wasn't it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:39:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:39:08 2002
Subject: [TML] A 'Billion' Earth's.......
Message-ID: <20020411133823.87249.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com>

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_medical/story.jsp?story=283413

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <F97SgeR4UIS42NXHwGr0001bbad@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 6:00, Sam D wrote:

> As far as rifles, Savages are good and cheap.  Ugly though.  To be
> honest, there is not much difference between the bottom of the line
> Savage, Ruger, Winchester or Remington.  The nice thing about the
> latter two is that, if you ever decide to do so, you can upgrade the
> rifle easily.  All 4 brands will do the job and last several
> generations, and they all get pretty good accuracy out of the box. 
> Expect to spend at least $3-400 or so, which might include a cheap
> scope.  Check Wal-Mart.  Get a synthetic stock.  These rifles are so
> cheap, that it might be hard to find a used one for less. 

Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle 
you like the look of. As Jim Charmichel once said "You're a very lucky 
man if you get to spend more time firing your rifle than looking at 
it." That being the case there's no point getting a rifle you can't 
stand the sight of.

Another thing - unless you intend on doing a lot of long range shooting 
don't be too concerned about extreme accuracy - despite what many of us 
have been ranting on about getting 2" at 100 yards is plenty good 
enough for most (non-varmint) hunting - that's still a deer's lower 
chest at 300 yards, easy.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:43:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:43:35 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411013453.029c0450@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB63B80.28309.A39F58@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 1:39, laning wrote:

> People who are liking lighter rounds are also exceptionally skilled shots 
> and I think factoring in their ability at shot placement more than I myself 
> would be comfortable with.  Heard way too many stories from excellent shots 
> who lost deer that they good pretty good hits on using .30-'06.  I'm not 
> saying they won't get their one-shot kills with lighter rounds.  Just that 
> I'd rather not rely on that kind of thing if it were me.
> 
> Some of the recent posts on the topic to the TML are modifying my opinions, 
> but only somewhat.

One thing that struck me - in all this 5.56 vs 7.62 nobody has 
suggested that that P90 thingie's round (I forget it's designation) 
would be a desirable alternative.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:48:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:48:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
In-Reply-To: <memo.437377@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CB63CCB.4807.A8A983@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 7:58, Megan Robertson wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410180651.009f12d0@mindspring.com>
> When in the British army, I got bawled out for not wearing my stripes on 
> combat clothing (they were correctly displayed on other uniforms). I 
> pointed out that in the field: -
> 
> a. I didn't want the enemy to know what rank I was.
> b. My own people knew me already.
> 
> I then added some removable stripes, which only went on when there was an 
> officer around :-)

We didn't (and don't) wear rank in the field. In fact we went to having 
NCO rank on removeable brassards so that you didn't have to have so 
many different shirts, and so that it could be taken off and put on 
again depending on circumstances more readily. Wearing rank in the 
field is about as bright as saluting in the field. In fact it was SOP 
for field dress to have no insignia on it at all now that I think about 
it.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <200204111145.DVD01524@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB63DAD.23897.AC1EE3@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 7:45, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Robert Uhl asks about a GP rifle
> <snip>
> A Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 for deer. Just right.
> 
> Not truly reliable for elk, but it's been done.

Just to keep things going - I'm not a fan big fan of the .30-30 (though 
I nearly bought one ten years ago - got an SKS instead), as IMO it's 
underpowered for larger deer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
 <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20020411155818.5b11fc3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Christopher Pratt wrote:
> What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet... or
even
> the moon?

Calculations for Luna follow:

Using a diameter of 3.476 E+6 meters:

Volume: 1.759 E+20 cubic meters

Displacement: 1.257 E+19 displacement tons

Surface area: 3.796 E+13 square meters

FF&S2 structural factor: 1.037 E+25

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204111402.DVH05321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>On 11 Apr 2002 at 1:39, laning wrote:
>Heard way too many stories from excellent shots 
> who lost deer that they good pretty good hits on using .30-
>'06.

A good shot is not necessarily a good hunter.  Some misguided 
souls believe that a bullet is a magical item that will make 
up for a rump shot, or a hit low in the belly.

There are, indeed, rounds that will enter the back end of a 
moose and come out the front, disrupting everything on the 
way through.  But it's better to pick where you're going to 
hit.  And consider what effect that's going to have.  This 
often means passing up a shot, or waiting for the animal to 
change aspect.

I'm convinced that the concepts brought out in Fackler's work 
apply to all animals.  You need a hit on the major nervous 
systems (brain or high in the spinal cord), or you need a hit 
that will get the animal to perish from hemorrhagic shock.  I 
have found that it's best to try to break bone in deer, 
because they can still run while bleeding to death.  Since 
I'm not doing headshots on deer, I try to break the shoulder 
in particular.  I can't see how a .30-06 would fail to break 
the shoulder if loaded with a proper weight bullet (150 
grains or higher, 180 grains being typical).  

ObTrav: In my revision (or supplanting) of the various 
Traveller gun combat systems, I have a penetration 
threshold/degredation for armor.  Even if a round penetrates 
armor, there are limits then on how badly you can be hurt.  
Of course, if the weapon has a really high penetration value, 
then this effect can be overcome, in much the same way that a 
really powerful hunting caliber can make up for shooting elk 
or moose from behind.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <F117uMJ4ySUfjhcgrqo00002681@hotmail.com>

Robert A. Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

You simply need a higher quality worst enemy to give it to.
:-)

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
Walsm Penor, or Terith Smipel, depending on which
iteration of the Lucasian name generator we're using.
I kind of like Terith Penor.

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:42:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:42:07 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F107XkF81yvoXFMxmyh000181e3@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>I'm convinced that the concepts brought out in Fackler's work
>apply to all animals.

I think this is a very good point.  Whether you are a hunter, acting in self 
defense, a cop or a soldier, your objective should be the same.  Despite 
occassional talk that hunters are content to let a wounded deer slip away or 
are very concerned about damaging too much meat, my experience is just the 
opposite.  Most of the hunters I know, if an animal does not drop like a 
sack of bricks, immediately start thinking about practicing more or getting 
a more powerful rifle.  In fact, hunters and cops seem to take "stopping 
power" much more seriously than the military.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F99548IlvMTkL01NspD000142b4@hotmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn said:

>Just to keep things going - I'm not a fan big fan of the .30-30 (though
>I nearly bought one ten years ago - got an SKS instead), as IMO it's
>underpowered for larger deer.

Although I have learned that one must tread carefully when critisizing the 
30/30, I tend to agree.  My problem is not so much with its stopping power 
as with its poor ballistics.  The 30/30's point blank range is only like 200 
yards, while you will get 300 or more with a more modern cartridge.  The 
accuracy is pretty bad too, and difficult to remedy, but adequate for short 
range.  It is a fine looking weapon, but unless longer shots are out of the 
question I would get a bolt action.

You are better off getting a cheap rifle and a more expensive scope.  Unless 
you are a very skilled rifleman, a decent scope (either 4x, 2-7 or 3-9) is a 
great asset.  Nice binocs are also important.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411075617.009f3d90@mindspring.com>

At 10:36 PM 4/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).

Actually, when I get the time and energy to run games, they tend to be 
deadly serious.


>Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I
>need a bit of camp now and then.

I loved that game!  I think the authors got paid by the subcase in the rules.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:12:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Kim)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:12:09 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB63B80.28309.A39F58@localhost>
References: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
 <3CB63B80.28309.A39F58@localhost>
Message-ID: <p05101502b8db5700ec4e@[10.0.1.10]>

At 1:42 AM +1200 4/12/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

>One thing that struck me - in all this 5.56 vs 7.62 nobody has
>suggested that that P90 thingie's round (I forget it's designation)
>would be a desirable alternative.

	5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar 
helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target 
(titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle 
velocity of 715m/s.

	http://www.remtek.com/arms/fn/p90/index.htm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:26:10 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204111525.DVL00842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
<snip about the .30-30, buying a weapon, scope, etc>

Most hunters I know (unless they are out west where the 
terrain permits it) don't shoot past 100 yards.  Yes, the .30-
30 has a range limit (look at the energy drop off for 5.56 
while you're at it), but 100 yards is just fine.  I like to 
get close.  I can hit paper way out there, but animals move 
in unpredictable ways, and I'm wanting to hit shoulder.

Keep in mind that many bolt-action/cartridge combinations are 
capable of working far beyond the shooter's ability.  The 
shooter will probably never explore that limit.  Many hunters 
I have met are not capable of shooting up to what they carry, 
not to mention even a lowly .30-30.

Many bolt-action stocks are not natural pointers - it always 
seems uncomfortable in the standing, kneeling, or sitting 
position.  Sometimes I think that the designer figured that 
everyone wants a flat beavertail fore-end for shooting from 
the bench.  Screw that.  I hate my Sendero precisely because 
it doesn't "point".

The typical lever-action Marlin or Winchester will point like 
there's no tomorrow - a good factor for a beginning (or even 
experienced) shooter who is shooting in the field.  Tod may 
laugh and figure I'm like that guy who brought us the M-14 
stock.

At 100 yards, you can get excellent results without a scope.  
If you have a Marlin 336, you can get a rear fold-down peep 
sight for about 25 dollars.  Sight this in, and go practice 
shooting on your hind legs at 50 to 100 yards.  If you can 
find a little valley, you can practice shooting downhill, 
uphill, etc.  Carry a pack with some paper plates and 
thumbtacks.  Practice standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone 
to see which one you're most comfortable with, and which one 
you find quick.  At home, you can practice getting into 
positions using your empty rifle.  Many people *never* 
practice this.  Learning what your body likes and dislikes 
about positions, and learning what makes a solid position 
only comes from this practice.

A good sling is also essential.  Many like the Ching Sling, 
but I am still fond of the leather military two-piece.  Stay 
slung up with this, and you can shoot standing to 100 yards 
with great accuracy.

A Win 94 or Marlin 336 may be cheap, may not be tackdrivers, 
but with little extra equipment, they can put a softpoint 
onto a paper plate at 100 yards very quickly.

If you're interested in reloading your cartridges, you can 
get a fairly inexpensive Lee 2001 (single station frame 
press).  I still have the one I got in 1984, and although 
I've gotten better dies and tools, I find it just as good as 
my Redding or RCBS.  This will lower the cost of your shots, 
and will allow you to spend more time with your hobby.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:32:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:32:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F70SDx1kLwxTQTYkWSz00001108@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "Yep. The Vilani already had problems when the Terrans turned up. They 
no longer had a monoploy on jump drives and were  suffering from piracy from 
outside their borders by minor races. That's why they thought the Terrans 
were just a bunch of pirates to start with."


Mr. Boleyn,

     I thought the "Outies" were all recruited, armed, and paid for by 
factions in the Ziru Sirka.  The Vargr were the exception in all of this 
because most of them hadn't rounded Windhorn yet and they don't have the 
staying power necessary for conquest (as we all detailed in the problems 
with the DGP's Rebellion).  Sounds as if I'm going to have to sit down and 
think about this much, much, MUCH more.
     The local ZS reps may have thought the Terrans were pirates up to a 
point, but only fools or traitors would have thought so after the 2nd IW and 
the Vilani visit to the Sol system.

     "Because the Vargr were not that far from Vland, and were an altogether 
higher priority."

     In the coreward sections of the ZS, sure, but in the early days the ZS 
Rim should have been able to handle Sol on their own.  IIRC, the ZS core 
fleet was dispatched to deal with the Terrans late in the IW period, but the 
Confederation already had jump3 technology and mousetrapped the ZS fleet.

     "As for the minor races - the Vilani controlled the transport and 
information flow, so the subject races may not have even heard of the 
Terrans until they were right inside their subsector and impossible for the 
Vilani to hide any longer."

     Yeah, I've got to think this over even more.  To my mind, minor race 
rebellions aided and abetted by Terran infiltrators should be a big part of 
the Interstellar Wars.  There would have been uprisings and sabotage a 
sector or so "behind" the fighting front and the minor race allies providing 
the lower-TL cannon fodder for the Alliance's offensives.
     Thanks for the ideas to chew over.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 10:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 09:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
Message-ID: <4b.1b7f2094.29e70e82@aol.com>

--part1_4b.1b7f2094.29e70e82_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet 
cover.  In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.

   And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the first 
place? The Lt. maybe? lol!

  -Ken Murphy-



--part1_4b.1b7f2094.29e70e82_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;
<BR>
<BR>I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet 
<BR>cover. &nbsp;In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the first place? The Lt. maybe? lol!
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_4b.1b7f2094.29e70e82_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 11:46:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Thu Apr 11 10:46:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020411160312.A6708@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 11, 2002 04:03:12 PM
Message-ID: <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
> > both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
> > physics as we know it,
> 
> That it does.  :)
> 
> I've worked out a set of variations on all the fundamental constants
> that works.  However, upon doing the equations it just works out
> equivalent to measuring things in grams instead of kilograms. :/
> 
> There was no *real* difference at all, including interaction with the
> outside world.  Oh well :(

Really? Hmm... this makes me think about that last example you
posed:

> OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
> the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
> a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
> strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
> hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
> when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
> decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
> just one simple example.
> 
> Hence inertial suppression requires more than just changing the
> strength of forces.  If you want the atoms to behave the same way, you
> need to alter fundamental constants as well.
 
Why does h influence the size of the atom?

Also, how do we know that h is a fundamental constant and not
dependant on the factors we might be changing (i.e. fundamental
forces) with the intertial suppression scheme?

That said:
I presume m_e is mass of electron and q_e is charge of the electron.
pi is 'pi', and h is plank's.  I'm not sure what eps_0... something
about the electrostatic attraction?

Are you saying that by reducing the mass, the orbitals of the electrons
are going to be larger?

I'm not completely sure how plank's constant enters into this.

If you say you are reducing the effect of an electronic charge by the
same percentage that you are reducing the mass, all should be good,
even if that means plank's constant has changed, which, I admit, I
was hoping to avoid... but when you mentioned that you created a
set of mechanics which worked perfectly well w/ all the constants
changing... hmm.

I'm thinking that perhaps these constants come out of evaluating
quantities such as the size of an atom.... in other words, perhaps
ZPF taming (inertial suppression & fundamental force suppression)
would end up modifying these so-called constants. But I don't know
enough about plank's to really make that assessment. Basically, what
I'm driving at here, is if you dropped the values of the fundamental
forces, would planck's constant also change as a result of that? If
so, then we've got a bit of a squirrely situation which might just
work mathematically, but which would make your average physics
doctorate have a cow.

On this assumption that this doesn't work, however:
> > so it seems that I'm going to have to relent and give up on this
> > idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes infeasible, and we're left
> > with FTL (which has already been done to death).
> 
> Almost all forms of FTL violate physics as we know it, too.  Don't
> take my insistence that inertia suppression doesn't work with known
> physics and chemistry to mean that I'd choke and barf if I saw it in a
> game.  I quite enjoyed the "Lensman" series, after all :)

Well, I'm sorta torn between this idea and Alcubierre's FTL (space
warping) idea, but we've discussed that one a few months ago, and
if I remember correctly, you made the contention that it leads to
wormholes and time travel, which we really don't want to deal with.
That's (a small) part of the reason I was hoping to use this inertial
suppression idea instead, but if it can't be explained in a way that
a physics major would say... "hmm... interesting... and I can't really
disprove it either... nor does it lead to ridiculous & exploitable
technologies" then maybe it shouldn't be used. I'm shooting for
something with a hard-SF feel. If we wanted soft-SF, we'd use
hyperspace and quasispace from starcon2.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:04:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:04:42 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F99EjKuZA11Fr9YawOu000146f1@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon says:

>Most hunters I know (unless they are out west where the
>terrain permits it) don't shoot past 100 yards.

I live in the West, and the 30/30 is virtually extinct as a sporting arm 
here.  Under 100 yard shot are very uncommon, and most guys are unsatisfied 
with their 300 yard rifles.   It seems like everybody is buying one of the 
new 300 Magnums, in the hope of going farther.

We tend to forget that the 30/30 in many places is all that is needded.

>Keep in mind that many bolt-action/cartridge combinations are
>capable of working far beyond the shooter's ability.  The
>shooter will probably never explore that limit.  Many hunters
>I have met are not capable of shooting up to what they carry,
>not to mention even a lowly .30-30.

Unfortunately, that is very true.  A 300 Mag does not make a guy a good 
shot; in fact, the opposite is usually the case.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:08:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:08:23 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F56z8kI063RA5C2duii00023931@hotmail.com>

Justin Kim said:

>	5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar
>helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target
>(titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle
>velocity of 715m/s.

Is that a FN pistol round?  Are they talking about using it in anything 
other than a pistol?

There was a lot of heartache going from .45 to 9m; can you imagine the howls 
if they went to a .22 pistol?

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:12:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <f8.19b3e031.29e72b62@aol.com>

--part1_f8.19b3e031.29e72b62_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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   Penis bones aside, the Space Axe(tm) stuff has been pretty interesting. 
Its got me wondering as to its actual performance characteristics.
   Lets take a look at axes:
   In MT, the Handaxe has Pen 6, Blocks 1, and does 3 Damage, while our 
friend the Battleaxe has Pen 8, Blocks 1, and also delivers 3 Damage.
   Now the Broadsword, for example, has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is less 
than 10, and I'm thinking our Space Axe(tm) should have a similar modifier of 
some sort; clearly seperating the thing's use by those in BD (or grotesquely 
jacked up with boinics and the like), and the relatively weak Everyone Else.
   I'm thinking the Space Axe has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is currently 
less than 20; making it act as a "normal" Battleaxe when weilded by 
non-BDers. This would mean our Ronco Space Axe(tm) would have Pen 16 when 
_properly_ used with BD and the like.
   Would this thing have a pick at the opposite end like a fireman's axe, or 
be double headed? I'm more for the pick end, myself. 
   One thing I liked from an old Challenge or Digest article on Low tech 
weapons, gave a reduction to the protection provided by "plate" (and, by my 
"logical" extension, Combat Armor and Battle Dress) against different 
weapons. Mostly the weapons sited were blunt ones; blades (and axes, IIRC) 
not receiving any armor mods.   
   Anyhow, one weapon, the Pick, reduced "Plate's" protection by -4 right 
off. That might be a handy little modifier to use when weilding the axe 
pick-end first :)
   I liked the idea of a rocket-assist on the downstroke as well, but am 
unable to figure any mods for _that_---maybe it gives the thing 4 Damage 
instead of 3? ;P
   Darn! Now I'm starting to wonder about all those creepy-looking chainsaw 
blades and the like I see on those Warhammer figures...
  -Ken Murphy-

 "When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer 
for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out 
of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God 
Almighty have mercy on you!" 

Legion of the Damned
Sven Hassel

   
   

--part1_f8.19b3e031.29e72b62_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Penis bones aside, the Space Axe(tm) stuff has been pretty interesting. Its got me wondering as to its actual performance characteristics.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Lets take a look at axes:
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;In MT, the Handaxe has Pen 6, Blocks 1, and does 3 Damage, while our friend the Battleaxe has Pen 8, Blocks 1, and also delivers 3 Damage.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Now the Broadsword, for example, has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is less than 10, and I'm thinking our Space Axe(tm) should have a similar modifier of some sort; clearly seperating the thing's use by those in BD (or grotesquely jacked up with boinics and the like), and the relatively weak Everyone Else.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I'm thinking the Space Axe has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is currently less than 20; making it act as a "normal" Battleaxe when weilded by non-BDers. This would mean our Ronco Space Axe(tm) would have Pen 16 when _properly_ used with BD and the like.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Would this thing have a pick at the opposite end like a fireman's axe, or be double headed? I'm more for the pick end, myself. 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;One thing I liked from an old Challenge or Digest article on Low tech weapons, gave a reduction to the protection provided by "plate" (and, by my "logical" extension, Combat Armor and Battle Dress) against different weapons. Mostly the weapons sited were blunt ones; blades (and axes, IIRC) not receiving any armor mods. &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Anyhow, one weapon, the Pick, reduced "Plate's" protection by -4 right off. That might be a handy little modifier to use when weilding the axe pick-end first :)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I liked the idea of a rocket-assist on the downstroke as well, but am unable to figure any mods for _that_---maybe it gives the thing 4 Damage instead of 3? ;P
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Darn! Now I'm starting to wonder about all those creepy-looking chainsaw blades and the like I see on those Warhammer figures...
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR>
<BR><P ALIGN=CENTER> "When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God Almighty have mercy on you!" 
<BR><P ALIGN=LEFT>
<BR>Legion of the Damned
<BR>Sven Hassel
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</P></P></FONT></HTML>

--part1_f8.19b3e031.29e72b62_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:14:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:14:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Adios Pirates!
Message-ID: <20020411181056.4612.qmail@earthlink.net>

And you thought Traveller pirates had it rough.

-- quote --

ABCNews.com

April 10 &#8212; They may not have patches over their eyes, parrots on their shoulders, and bottles of rum in their hands, but modern-day pirates are preying on the weak and the unwary.

From Borneo to Baja California, pirate attacks &#8212; up 400 percent in the last decade &#8212; are bolder and bloodier than ever. Like their legendary predecessors, they pose a serious threat to tankers, freighters and sailors across the world. And, according to some experts, many more attacks go unreported, especially in tourist spots. "The crimes are becoming more and more audacious," says Kim Petersen, a security expert who tracks pirates. "They're after whatever they can get."

Though no cruise ships have been attacked recently, the cruise lines are now so worried about piracy and hijacking that they've hired Gurkhas, Nepalese soldiers skilled with knives and swords, to protect their ships and passengers...

-- end quote --

The rest of the story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Downtown/2020/Downtown_020410_pirates_feature.html

-- 


David Smart



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:17:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:17:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Adios Pirates!
Message-ID: <20020411181134.84657.qmail@earthlink.net>

And you thought Traveller pirates had it rough.

-- quote --

ABCNews.com

April 10 &#8212; They may not have patches over their eyes, parrots on their shoulders, and bottles of rum in their hands, but modern-day pirates are preying on the weak and the unwary.

From Borneo to Baja California, pirate attacks &#8212; up 400 percent in the last decade &#8212; are bolder and bloodier than ever. Like their legendary predecessors, they pose a serious threat to tankers, freighters and sailors across the world. And, according to some experts, many more attacks go unreported, especially in tourist spots. "The crimes are becoming more and more audacious," says Kim Petersen, a security expert who tracks pirates. "They're after whatever they can get."

Though no cruise ships have been attacked recently, the cruise lines are now so worried about piracy and hijacking that they've hired Gurkhas, Nepalese soldiers skilled with knives and swords, to protect their ships and passengers...

-- end quote --

The rest of the story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Downtown/2020/Downtown_020410_pirates_feature.html

-- 


David Smart



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:19:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:19:33 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F56z8kI063RA5C2duii00023931@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 11:05 AM, Sam D at samdx@hotmail.com wrote:

> Justin Kim said:
> 
>> 5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar
>> helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target
>> (titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle
>> velocity of 715m/s.
> 
> Is that a FN pistol round?  Are they talking about using it in anything
> other than a pistol?

It's also the round for the FN P90.

It would be interesting to compare it's lethality to the 9mm ball round that
it would replace.  Energy is only a little more than the 9mm but the recoil
should be nothing.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:56:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Kim)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:56:25 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <p05101503b8db8ae2c7f1@[10.0.1.10]>

At 11:17 AM -0700 4/11/02, Tod Glenn wrote:

>It's also the round for the FN P90.
>
>It would be interesting to compare it's lethality to the 9mm ball round that
>it would replace.  Energy is only a little more than the 9mm but the recoil
>should be nothing.

	It's supposed to leave large nasty wound cavities in the 
target.  The website I referenced in my last post used to have a 
picture of the track the round left in a block of ballistic gelatin. 
I'm a complete novice, but it looked unpleasant to me :)

	The 5.7x28mm round was designed to replace the 9mm because of 
the 9mm's poor armor penetrating capabilities.

Justin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:09:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:09:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409141814.027d2810@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20411.112148.1F4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>>> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where 
>>> you were born.

Leoer McSan

I *don't* think so...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:10:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:10:59 2002
Subject: [TML] RealLife(tm) Battledress, next chapter
In-Reply-To: <204AD90A.F27541C2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20411.112029.5P7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Gee, you sent this on March 3, 1987. Slow X-boat?

In mail you write:

> This is kinda fun...
>
> http://www.aro.army.mil/soldiernano/
>
>
> David

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:12:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:12:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018393991.5137.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20411.112329.6T1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>> Keep in mind that while the *energy* of the pulse might only be a few
>> kilojoules the *power* level will be in the megawatt to gigawatt range.
>> Pulses of 1 millisecond or *shorter* will be wanted, both to avoid
>> problems with target movement, but also because the shorter duration
>> tends to increase the "shock" effect due to increased rapidity of
>> energy deposition.
>
> Think microsecond.  You want to create a supersonic shock effect.

That pushes the 1 kJ pulse to *gigawatt* power levels in the rifle. 
Even if it's only for a microsecond, a gigawatt is a lot of power.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:14:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:14:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D99A5C.382DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20411.120223.5O8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/9/02 11:41 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> 
>>> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).
>>> A 65 gram projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.
>> 
>> 65 grams is about 2.3 *ounces*. Ouch.
>> 
>> 4800 fps = ~1460 m/s.
>> 
>> Yeek! That's almost 70 kiloJoules muzzle energy!
>> 
>> Yeah, that'd make folks go splat.
>
> I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.
>
> 69,562 Joules of energy
> 1,130 joules of free recoil
>
> 25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)

Or the equivalent of 16.6 grams of TNT.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:19:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:19:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204111918.DVS00303@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

shadow@krypton.rain.com says
>
>That pushes the 1 kJ pulse to *gigawatt* power levels in the 
>rifle. Even if it's only for a microsecond, a gigawatt is a 
lot of power.
>
You should realize then the power of the current smokeless 
powder cartridges.  We're raising 5 to 8 kJ (depending on 
caliber) in seven-tenths of a millisecond.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:21:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:21:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F1848kFEs6x7Oq6q4sM0001f07c@hotmail.com>

From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>

     "Riiiiiight.  And the United States singlehandedly beat Hitler and
liberated Europe.  Just ask any contemporary 'Merkun.  (Okay, maybe the 
Limeys helped us out some, but not those dirty Reds, no sir.  And definitely 
not the French - all they know how to do is surrender.  What?  The Chinese?  
Were they *in* WW2?)"


Mr. St.Clair,

     Exactly my point, sir!  The Yanks no more singlehandedly beat Adolph 
than the Terran Confederation singlehandedly beat the Ziru Sirka.
     In the center, the Vilani were engaged in realpolitik factional games 
amongst themselves, complete with "outie" mercs and personal armies.  Along 
the coreward frontier, the Vargr were sniffing about, some recruited and 
used for internal ZS power politics and others still feral and rading 
willy-nilly.  And, scattered throughout the empire, were dozens of restless 
minor races, chafing at the Vilani collar around their collective necks and 
waiting for the slightest provocation to rebel.
     The Terrans had help, and lots of it.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:38:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:38:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204111937.DVT02415@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
>
>     "Riiiiiight.  And the United States singlehandedly beat 
>Hitler and liberated Europe. 

UK, very helpful
USSR, extremely helpful
Chinese, yes very
in fact, it was "world war" for a reason.  It took half the 
world to defeat the Axis.

It could also be argued that without the United States, the 
Germans would have won the war.  So no one could do the whole 
job - it had to be done together.

The French -- for the ones that actually helped, were only a 
distraction to keep Germans occupied elsewhere.  Many French 
were wholehearted collaborators.  They don't want to mention 
this -- in fact, "everyone" was in the Maquis.  They gladly 
handed over 1 million Jews, Socialists, homosexuals, and 
other "undesireables" over to the Germans.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:56:08 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200
References: <F97SgeR4UIS42NXHwGr0001bbad@hotmail.com> <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020411135544.A25603@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle 
> you like the look of.

Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
_ugly_:-(

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Mark Twain famously noted that those who are interested in the law or
sausage should never watch either made.  In the years since he made the
remark, there has been considerable reform in sausage making.
                                          --Dennis E. Powell

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:58:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:58:12 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <200204111525.DVL00842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:25:35AM -0400
References: <200204111525.DVL00842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020411135704.B25603@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:25:35AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> A good sling is also essential.  Many like the Ching Sling, 
> but I am still fond of the leather military two-piece.  Stay 
> slung up with this, and you can shoot standing to 100 yards 
> with great accuracy.

I've never actually figured out how to use a sling...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Verbogeny is one of the pleasurettes of a creatific thinkerizer.
                                               --Peter da Silva

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
>food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
>parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
>they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
>                --Socrates, c.  5th century BC

"  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
   abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
   man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
   end of the world is fast approaching."
                          - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:11:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:11:12 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204112010.g3BKAVh12588@mailbag.com>

"Sam D" 
> John T. Kwon says:
> 
> >Most hunters I know (unless they are out west where the
> >terrain permits it) don't shoot past 100 yards.
> 
> I live in the West, and the 30/30 is virtually extinct as a sporting arm 
> here.  Under 100 yard shot are very uncommon, and most guys are unsatisfied 
> with their 300 yard rifles.   It seems like everybody is buying one of the 
> new 300 Magnums, in the hope of going farther.



By the same token, I live in Wisconsin. 100 yards? Try 100 feet real often. 

All I need for any hunting I do is my old Ithica 12 Gauge pump: Slugs for deer 
and (steel) shot for birds. I also have a flintlock in .50", but that's for fun 
not for hunting. I may someday get a .308 for a hunting rifle, but honestly 
there's nothing I want to hunt that I would need anything more than that 12.

Plus, IMHO, it's the best home defense weapon available. 

William




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204112013.DVT07701@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>I've never actually figured out how to use a sling...

Get a book on three-position shooting.  There will be a 
section on using the sling.  Make sure that you buy 
a "proper" two-piece leather sling (it will set you back more 
than the cheap nylon straps that you see on the shelf).

Once you "sling up" properly, you will be surprised at the 
level of stability you can achieve.  As long as its not too 
tight, you can walk around slung up like this.  

ObTrav:  This, and the Ching Sling, are the only "sling" 
types that I will give a +DM for accuracy.  Those 
other "things" are just fancy padded carrying straps.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:46:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:46:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>; from shadow@krypton.rain.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:15:43PM -0800
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net> <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020411144523.A25786@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:15:43PM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> "  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
>    abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
>    man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
>    end of the world is fast approaching."
>                           - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC

.sig slurped...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
'Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US
 companies like Microsoft.'                         --some AOLer
'To this end we dedicate ourselves...'                     --Don

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:47:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:47:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
References: <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CB5F5F1.3050200@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
> 
> 
>>Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
>>food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
>>parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
>>they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
>>               --Socrates, c.  5th century BC
> 
> 
> "  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
>    abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
>    man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
>    end of the world is fast approaching."
>                           - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC
> 

Some of the pictures in the caves in Lascaux express the same things, 
I'll bet.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 15:25:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 14:25:08 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
parts of the debate to TML chat?

Or else I'll begin posting socialist and communist propaganda...

(not a serious threat, but about as relevant)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 15:29:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 11 14:29:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F247Acvgn29MhIydI8o0001bb2c@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "The French -- for the ones that actually helped, were only a
distraction to keep Germans occupied elsewhere.  Many French were 
wholehearted collaborators.  They don't want to mention this -- in fact, 
"everyone" was in the Maquis.  They gladly handed over 1 million Jews, 
Socialists, homosexuals, and other "undesireables" over to the Germans."


Mr. Kwon,

     The French wheat and meat fed the Nazi war machine.  French hands and 
concrete built the Atlantic Wall and the submarine pens.  French rails 
shipped men and materials without delay or hindrance.
     All of Holland worked for their resistance, the Germans had a devil of 
time finding collaborators there.  The Danes, from the King on down, wore 
the yellow Star of David and helped their Jews escape to Sweden.  Yugoslavia 
was a hardship post with constant fighting.  The Czechs killed the Nazi 
gauleiters assigned there.  Norway meant you had to live in armed camps and 
the Eastern Front was litle more than a death sentence, but France...  
France was where you got posted if you were a good little Nazi!

Q:  Why do the French plant trees along the side of the road?
A:  So the Germans can march in the shade.

ObTrav - So, from the Vilani point of view, who were the "French" to the 
Terran's "Nazis" during the Interstellar Wars?  The Vegans?  Some other 
human minor race?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 15:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 14:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
Message-ID: <200204112147.DVX03585@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

There's the 100d limit.  Given.

Is there not some safety standoff distance from one jump 
drive to another?  And what would that distance be?  Could 
you make someone misjump (along with yourself)?

I've read in the archive about "grav" generators to bump 
people out of hyperspace, and jump projectors to throw people 
into the middle of nowhere.

But on a simpler level, I feel that one jump field powering 
through a jump would interfere with another, at least at the 
point of departure.  Thoughts?
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:20:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:20:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020411160312.A6708@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020412081911.B9083@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> Why does h influence the size of the atom?

The size of the atom depends upon the shape of the wavefunction of the
electrons in their ground state.  Roughly speaking, the probability of
finding an electron at a given distance from the atom starts to drop
off sharply at a distance determined by the relations of quantum
mechanics.  Those relation involve h.


> Also, how do we know that h is a fundamental constant and not
> dependant on the factors we might be changing (i.e. fundamental
> forces) with the intertial suppression scheme?

We don't.  The only problem is that if you change h (and everything
associated with it) to fit the requirement that people remain alive,
you get the result that nothing changes at all, including how much
acceleration the ship can take or how much power it takes to
accelerate it.


> I presume m_e is mass of electron and q_e is charge of the electron.
> pi is 'pi', and h is plank's.  I'm not sure what eps_0... something
> about the electrostatic attraction?

Yes; the electrostatic attractive force between two charges is
proportional to 1/(4 pi eps_0).  It is usually written as a greek
epsilon symbol with a subscript 0, but that's not possible in ASCII.


> Are you saying that by reducing the mass, the orbitals of the electrons
> are going to be larger?

If you don't change Planck's constant, yes.  The equation governing
the wavefunction of the electron (or any other thing, for that matter)
has a factor of (h^2 / 2 m) in it.  So the mass affects the shape.  It
turns out that if you reduce the mass and energy levels by a factor of
100, the distances increase by a factor of 100^2.


> Basically, what I'm driving at here, is if you dropped the values of
> the fundamental forces, would planck's constant also change as a
> result of that?

It appears not.  Planck's constant seems to be more fundamental than
the strengths of various forces.


> Well, I'm sorta torn between this idea and Alcubierre's FTL (space
> warping) idea, but we've discussed that one a few months ago, and
> if I remember correctly, you made the contention that it leads to
> wormholes and time travel, which we really don't want to deal with.

;^>  I can be a party-pooper, can't I?

Though I actually like the idea of FTL causality consequences.

Besides, wormholes probably automatically prevent causality paradoxes;
if they approach a configuration in which a closed timelike path
exists, zero-interval feedback may well destroy the wormholes involved
before you actually get any time travel effects.  This is a serious
conjecture in physics.  It also opens up interesting possibilities in
the game universe -- someone might do this deliberately for political
or military reasons.


> I'm shooting for something with a hard-SF feel.

You can still have FTL or inertial suppression with a hard-SF feel,
you just need to consider the consequences that physics geeks like me
are going to pick up, or alternatively try not go into details at all.
A rule of thumb is that you're allowed one big violation of
physics-as-we-know-it so long as you at least try to predict some of
the side effects.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:27:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:27:11 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>; from jenry023@student.liu.se on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:24:28PM +0200
References: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020411162610.A25877@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:24:28PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>
> Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> parts of the debate to TML chat?

Gun debate?  Do you mean the discussion of weapons useful for
killing/stopping roughly man-size targets?  Seems pretty on-topic to
me...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Asking a girl out is like finding sqrt(pi) using roman numerals.  --unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:30:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:30:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <200204112147.DVX03585@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411182555.01e801d0@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:47 PM 4/11/2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Is there not some safety standoff distance from one jump
>drive to another?  And what would that distance be?

My initial reaction is to say "100 diameters", or in this case, 100 ship 
lengths.  Beyond that distance, the jump field definitely won't be a 
problem.  Between 100 and 10 ship lengths, you've got possible problems, 
and under 10 ship lengths is definitely bad news.

Of course, the danger in this case is to both ships.  I would determine the 
result separately for each ship involved - so that one ship may not jump, 
or could misjump, or be destroyed, while the other ship has a different 
fate.  So you might make the other ship misjump (or you may not), but 
you're just as likely to misjump yourself.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:32:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:32:10 2002
Subject: [TML] FFS2 penetration
Message-ID: <B8DB5CBD.3972C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all.  How does one calculate penetration according FFS2 for small
arm?


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:36:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:36:10 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <200204112235.DVZ01545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>Gun debate?  Do you mean the discussion of weapons useful for
>killing/stopping roughly man-size targets?  Seems pretty on-
>topic to me...
>

Well, technically we could take it to tml-guntech.  We 
already have a considerable amount of discussion over there 
about weapons (what is a snub pistol anyway - go to tml-
guntech and find out..)

I try to have an ObTrav. Should I post my version of the 
combat system on tml or tml-guntech?
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:38:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:38:49 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155951.01dc24b0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8DB5E1A.39732%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 1:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Tod, what was the free recoil of that elephant rifle again?  For
> comparison.  I found your earlier calculations on the M1, M16, and gauss
> rifle, which were two orders of magnitude lower and then some compared to
> the above 65 gram bullet.
> 
> Hm, I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and plug in numbers for known
> weapons and science fiction weapons from time to time.  Then post on a Web
> site so all interested parties can reference it from time to time.

See my calculator at http://www.travellercentral.com

follow the links to House Rules : Projectile Weapons

(or go straight to http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/ke.html)

I just added penetration for TNE.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:41:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:41:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
Message-ID: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Derek Wildstar says
<snip derek's take on adjacent ships activating their 
hyperdrive>

That sounds pretty good. It means, however, that ships might 
have a minimum separation, which affects fleet actions.

Would we also have another problem a la B5? Starting one jump 
field within another?
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:43:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:43:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DB5EB6.39733%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 5:14 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> My first choice would probably be a .375 H&H. Much though I admire
> Weatherbys they cost too much and are generally over-powered if you're
> using solids - they'd tend to horribly over-penetrate anything but the
> heaviest game. With expansive bullets I'd drop to a .338 Winchester or
> .340 Weatherby unless in Africa, in which case the .375's would be the
> way to go, IMO. .416s and .458/.460s are good vs buffs, elephants, etc.
> but aren't long-range rounds, so you'd need a second rifle for those
> 300-500 yard shots on eland, etc.

Another classic 'smallbore'.  The only problem with the .375 H&H and rounds
based on it is that it requires a magnum length action. One of my alltime
favorites.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411183848.0188fa70@192.168.0.1>

Loren had mentioned a Traveller specific version of the GURPS character 
generation software was being considered.

Is this project a go?  If so, when would it see the light of day?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
           http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:51:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:51:15 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F107XkF81yvoXFMxmyh000181e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:41, Sam D wrote:

> I think this is a very good point.  Whether you are a hunter, acting
> in self defense, a cop or a soldier, your objective should be the
> same.  Despite occassional talk that hunters are content to let a
> wounded deer slip away or are very concerned about damaging too much
> meat, my experience is just the opposite. Most of the hunters I
> know, if an animal does not drop like a sack of bricks, immediately
> start thinking about practicing more or getting a more powerful
> rifle.  In fact, hunters and cops seem to take "stopping power" much
> more seriously than the military. 

To let an animal get away to die slowly over the course of hours or 
days is IMO horribly cruel, and utterly unsportsmanlike. I've had many 
arguments with people over goat culling because of this. For some years 
back in the 90s it was common 'sport' for a couple of guys to drive out 
to the back of a farm with goat problems (getting the owner's 
permission first, of course) and shoot up the goats with semi-auto 
rifles. The most common choices were SKS carbines or semi-auto only 
AK's. It was also common for many to simply fire into a mod of goats 
and then let the survivors wander off, gut shot or with broken legs. 
When I pointed out that this was cruel and that they'd be upset if I 
were to do this to a dog or a deer they'd look blank and say "but 
they're only goats." Then they'd wonder why I wouldn't associate with 
them any more.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:53:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:53:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <200204112251.DVZ03066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>Loren had mentioned a Traveller specific version of the 
>GURPS character generation software was being considered.
>
I've got most of the GURPS material, but not GT.  (Ultra 
Tech, Space, but not GT).  

I could get a copy of GT and try my hand at it.  Are there a 
lot of variations from the basic GURPS?  It wouldn't take too 
long to do.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:50:50AM +1200
References: <F107XkF81yvoXFMxmyh000181e3@hotmail.com> <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020411170142.A26003@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:50:50AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> To let an animal get away to die slowly over the course of hours or 
> days is IMO horribly cruel, and utterly unsportsmanlike.

Agreed but...

> When I pointed out that this was cruel and that they'd be upset if I 
> were to do this to a dog or a deer they'd look blank and say "but 
> they're only goats."

In NZ are goats viewed simpy as nuisance animals, or as something
more?  I wouldn't feel overly bad about mortally a shark, snake, wolf
or coyote and leaving it to die, but I'd never do the same for a deer,
duck or other animal.

How much of this is based on perception, I wonder?  The animals I
don't care about I either hate (sharks and snakes) or consider
varmints and pests (wolves & coyotes), whereas the ones I do are ones
I respect.

That said, I cannot see goats as a `nasty' animal (like the feral ones
I mentioned).  Nuisances, but no more than that.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ubi non accusator, ibi non judex.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:04:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
In-Reply-To: <200204112251.DVZ03066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:51:24PM -0400
References: <200204112251.DVZ03066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020411170334.B26003@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:51:24PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> I could get a copy of GT and try my hand at it.  Are there a lot of
> variations from the basic GURPS?  It wouldn't take too long to do.

Probably the most work would be inputting the lists of skills &c.
You'll want to rewrite (not simply paraphrase) the skill descriptions,
as they are copyrighted.  There is a process to get permission to use
them, but I typically prefer that my work be as free as possible of
encumbrances.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"Oh bother," said the Borg, "We've assimilated Pooh."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:06:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:06:11 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 17:24, Jens Rydholm wrote:

> Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> parts of the debate to TML chat?
> 
> Or else I'll begin posting socialist and communist propaganda...
> 
> (not a serious threat, but about as relevant)

But how can guns not be relevant to Traveller? :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:07:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:07:40 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <F99548IlvMTkL01NspD000142b4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6BF68.28920.307BF2@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:54, Sam D wrote:

> You are better off getting a cheap rifle and a more expensive scope.
>  Unless you are a very skilled rifleman, a decent scope (either 4x,
> 2-7 or 3-9) is a great asset.  Nice binocs are also important. 

Also with a scope it's a good idea to get one in which the objective 
lens size divided by the power (for a vari-power about mid-range will 
do for this) is 7mm or more. Less than this and the light gathering 
capacity isn't the best, no matter how clear the optics, and the 
scope's utility will drop off quickly in poor light conditions. Thus 
4x32 is adequate, 4x40 is very nice (though more than 8-10mm is more 
than your eye can use) and 6x32 not the best.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:10:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:10:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F70SDx1kLwxTQTYkWSz00001108@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6C056.18523.341AE7@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 15:31, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Yeah, I've got to think this over even more.  To my mind, minor
> race rebellions aided and abetted by Terran infiltrators should be a
> big part of the Interstellar Wars.  There would have been uprisings
> and sabotage a sector or so "behind" the fighting front and the
> minor race allies providing the lower-TL cannon fodder for the
> Alliance's offensives. 

That would certainly make sense once things got going (say after IW4 or 
thereabouts).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:11:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:11:44 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F56z8kI063RA5C2duii00023931@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6C056.6241.341BB4@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 18:05, Sam D wrote:

> Justin Kim said:
> 
> >	5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar
> >helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target
> >(titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle
> >velocity of 715m/s.
> 
> Is that a FN pistol round?  Are they talking about using it in anything 
> other than a pistol?
> 
> There was a lot of heartache going from .45 to 9m; can you imagine the howls 
> if they went to a .22 pistol?

No, it's for their personal defence weapon, the P90. Basically it's a 
late 1990s take on the SMG, but using a cut down rifle round rather 
than a pistol round, so it has a much better effective range than a 
normal SMG. They're the toys being used in the later seasons of 
Stargate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <p05101503b8db8ae2c7f1@[10.0.1.10]>
References: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6C0AF.31055.357841@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:55, Justin Kim wrote:

> 	It's supposed to leave large nasty wound cavities in the 
> target.  The website I referenced in my last post used to have a 
> picture of the track the round left in a block of ballistic gelatin. 
> I'm a complete novice, but it looked unpleasant to me :)
> 
> 	The 5.7x28mm round was designed to replace the 9mm because of 
> the 9mm's poor armor penetrating capabilities.

However most gun-nuts I know have come to the conclusion that it's 
better than a pistol, but nothing near as good as the 5.56x45mm at just 
about anything, especially wounding.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:16:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:16:52 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
In-Reply-To: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DB66BD.3974E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 5:36 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> I'm trying to make up my mind between the .375 and the .338.
> Since I'm in N. America, it may be the .338.

For NA, .338 is going to be fine, unless you're in Alaska and shooting moose
and polar bear.  Even then, you could probably manage alright.

Given you predilection for sniping, I'm surprised you didn't mention the
.338 Lapua.
> 
> The situations that Traveller characters find themselves in
> are rarely more than a few opponents, and most are armed
> (depending on the GM, of course) with pistols and short range
> weapons.  In one past campaign, I did rather well with a
> single-shot falling block rifle in .375 H&H.  I was playing a
> PH, and this was my "walking about" rifle.  I was infamous
> for killing three other player characters by shooting down
> their custom air raft (first shot hit the driver through the
> front, the second shot disabled the powerplant and the other
> two plummeted to their deaths).
> 
> If you also consider that Traveller gun combat is at about
> the same range as a Cape Buffalo encounter, and you're
> probably going to live for about as many shots (two, maybe
> three), then I think that whatever makes a good Cape Buffalo
> weapon might make a good Traveller combat weapon.
> 
> Let's see.  We'll make it .416 Remington, since we can still
> get Speer tungsten core solids.
> 
> The rifle should be a 4-shot controlled-feed pre-64
> Winchester action (with fixed ejector).  Barrel length should
> be 22 inches, and we'll go with a muzzle brake.  The stock
> should be optimized for firing on your hind legs, and we'll
> put a Trijicon Reflex sight on top, with express sights just
> in case that gets broken.

The new Winchester 'Classic' has controlled feed, and IIRC a fixed ejector.
But go first class and get one of Pete Grissel's Dakotas.  I think I pick a
ghost ring over express sights for adventuring.  Maybe 1x LER scope mounted
scout-like.
> 
> A PH should be able to get two or three quick aimed shots off
> with something like this.  I haven't seen many Traveller-
> style combats last more than a few combat rounds. And you'll
> only have to hit another human *once* with something like
> this.  Tod might make it a .458, though.

Maybe .470NE in a Searcy double rifle.  Two *really* quick shots, and reload
speed is not too bad if you practice.  Of course you have to have the gun
regulated for the planet and area your on.

For Armored targets, there always the .577NE in the double gun.
> 
> Get yourself a pouch that holds 20 rounds, maybe keep 40
> rounds in your pack.  More than enough for most Traveller
> adventures.


More numbers, 'cause it's more gearhead like:
(Stats are for TNE - FFS.  Loads are from A-Square's "Any Shot You Want")

Weapon  KE      RE  Dam   Recoil    Pen
.223    1801    4   3       3       1-Nil
.308    3536    19  4       4       2-3-Nil
.338    5526    50  6       6       2-4-6
.375    6097    64  6       6       2-4-6
.416    7232    80  6       6       2-4-6
.458    7090    87  6       6       2-4-6
.460    9780   146  7       7       2-4-6
.577NE  9042   167  6       6       2-4-6
.577TR  13188  197  8       7       2-3-4
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:19:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:19:15 2002
Subject: [TML] News from Delphi
References: <20020410143005.F2EB127AB3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB61A54.E69EDB1@together.net>

> From: "Graham Donald" <gndonald@hotmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:11:56 +0800
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I was wondering how is the Delphi history project going, I looked at their
> site, but it hasn't been updated since 2000.
> 

	I'm not sure of which site you are looking at, but the Delphi project
continues. The main project board is on JTAS (http://jtas.sjgames.com/
), become a subscriber if you are not already. 
	February 5th issue of JTAS contains the Delphi Foundation document, an
article describing the history, including a set of maps showing the
historical progression of colonization in the sector, a description of
some of the nobility, and a few of the more predominate groups. 

	The landgrab has begun, with a few worlds claimed and more ideas tossed
around. In addition to the foundation document, I also have a summary of
the discussions up to the point of the the writing of the foundation
document. 

	So, if you'd like to do a landgrab, but without having explain 20 years
of canon, or would like a more settled sector to play in come on over to
Delphi. The nice, safe core of the Imperium. 
-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:21:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:21:11 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <20020411135544.A25603@4dv.net>
References: <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200
Message-ID: <3CB6C311.15964.3EC7C1@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 13:55, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > 
> > Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle 
> > you like the look of.
> 
> Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
> _ugly_:-(

I rather like Ruger's line of stainless and synthetics. The almost 
skeletal green stocks look quite cool, IMO.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:30:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:30:10 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20020411170142.A26003@4dv.net>
References: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:50:50AM +1200
Message-ID: <3CB6C54B.24759.4779CF@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 17:01, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> > When I pointed out that this was cruel and that they'd be upset if I 
> > were to do this to a dog or a deer they'd look blank and say "but 
> > they're only goats."
> 
> In NZ are goats viewed simpy as nuisance animals, or as something
> more?  I wouldn't feel overly bad about mortally a shark, snake, wolf
> or coyote and leaving it to die, but I'd never do the same for a deer,
> duck or other animal.

A serious nuisance - feral goats damage farmland near bush, and do a 
_lot_ of damage to native bush, as do opossums and wasps - all imports. 
Deer move from vermin to game and back again, depending on how many 
there are and on politics.
 
> How much of this is based on perception, I wonder?  The animals I
> don't care about I either hate (sharks and snakes) or consider
> varmints and pests (wolves & coyotes), whereas the ones I do are ones
> I respect.
> 
> That said, I cannot see goats as a `nasty' animal (like the feral ones
> I mentioned).  Nuisances, but no more than that.

Whereas I don't see any reason why the morality of leaving animals to 
suffer should depend on their 'pleasantness' or the worthiness as game.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:31:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:31:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DB5EB6.39733%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB6C54B.322.477957@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 15:39, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Another classic 'smallbore'.  The only problem with the .375 H&H and
> rounds based on it is that it requires a magnum length action. One of
> my alltime favorites. 

I've never been that impressed by arguments for this round or that 
round based on action length. IME the speed of an action has more to do 
with it's overall design than it's length, and 'short stroking' occurs 
when people get cute and try to speed their reload up by not drawing 
the bolt all the way to the rear. The fastest reliable reload, 
regardless of action length, is to draw the bolt back until it stops, 
than push forward and down in one smooth motion. It's that simple.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:34:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:34:11 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <3CB6C311.15964.3EC7C1@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DB6B04.39757%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 4:20 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

>> 
>> Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
>> _ugly_:-(
> 
> I rather like Ruger's line of stainless and synthetics. The almost
> skeletal green stocks look quite cool, IMO.

I go all over the place.  I like the look of a well made synthetic stock.
Not the plastic injection-molded ones, but the laminated  ones like H-S
Precision, Griffen and Bell and the like.

Nothing beats wood for looks though.  I have several nice pieces of walnut,
one Bubinga and one Cocobolo waiting to be inletted.  Cocobolo is very
beautiful, heavy, tough and expensive.  I wanted to bring the weight of my
.458 up and decided on a dense wood rather than a mercury recoil reducer.
The wood is georgeous.  Now to wait a year or two so it dries properly.

If things gel, my wife we get sent to the international law enforcement
academy in Botswana. If that happens, you know where I'll be. :)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:37:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:37:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
References: <200204111918.DVS00303@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d601c1e1b1$c48e36c0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Niches


> shadow@krypton.rain.com says
> >
> >That pushes the 1 kJ pulse to *gigawatt* power levels in the 
> >rifle. Even if it's only for a microsecond, a gigawatt is a 
> lot of power.
> >
> You should realize then the power of the current smokeless 
> powder cartridges.  We're raising 5 to 8 kJ (depending on 
> caliber) in seven-tenths of a millisecond.

5kJ in 0.0007s =>   7.14 MW
8kJ in 0.0007s => 11.43 MW

So you have about 100 times less power...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:00:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:00:15 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <B8DB6B04.39757%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB6C311.15964.3EC7C1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB6CC2B.3222.6256C7@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 16:32, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Nothing beats wood for looks though.  I have several nice pieces of walnut,
> one Bubinga and one Cocobolo waiting to be inletted.  Cocobolo is very
> beautiful, heavy, tough and expensive.  I wanted to bring the weight of my
> .458 up and decided on a dense wood rather than a mercury recoil reducer.
> The wood is georgeous.  Now to wait a year or two so it dries properly.

My father has a Swedish Mauser from 1899, and it has the most amazing 
tiger-stripe stock. The first thing we said when we saw it was "Now 
don't you wish you could put that stock on the .30-06?"
 
> If things gel, my wife we get sent to the international law enforcement
> academy in Botswana. If that happens, you know where I'll be. :)

Sitting at home minding the kids, of course.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:01:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:01:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <00d601c1e1b1$c48e36c0$52200050@matt>
References: <200204111918.DVS00303@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <00d601c1e1b1$c48e36c0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020412095904.A9693@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> 8kJ in 0.0007s => 11.43 MW
> 
> So you have about 100 times less power...

The best figures I've seen require about 20 MW for a laser weapon.  1
kJ in a microsecond is bad because you only get a surface explosion,
no penetration at all.  1 kJ in 100 pulses of about half a microsecond
each is much better.

Besides, I've personally built a laser that produces a pulse with a
power of about a gigawatt.  If properly made, it could fit into pistol
size.  Peak power means nothing.  Pulse *energies* and *sustained*
power are what makes weapon lasers difficult to build.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:04:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:04:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB6C54B.322.477957@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DB71E0.3977B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 4:30 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> I've never been that impressed by arguments for this round or that
> round based on action length. IME the speed of an action has more to do
> with it's overall design than it's length, and 'short stroking' occurs
> when people get cute and try to speed their reload up by not drawing
> the bolt all the way to the rear. The fastest reliable reload,
> regardless of action length, is to draw the bolt back until it stops,
> than push forward and down in one smooth motion. It's that simple.

It has more to do with the scarcity of magnum length actions that are
suitable for dangerous game.  Thankfully, Winchester has brought out the
'classic' action and some good stuff is coming in from Brno.  Sorry,
Remington just doesn't cut it and I don't care for Ruger.  That diagonal
screw is worthless.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:10:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:10:10 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB6C54B.24759.4779CF@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:30:19AM +1200
References: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>; <20020411170142.A26003@4dv.net> <3CB6C54B.24759.4779CF@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020411180903.A26285@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:30:19AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Whereas I don't see any reason why the morality of leaving animals to 
> suffer should depend on their 'pleasantness' or the worthiness as game.

I should point out that I'd not deliberately mis-hit the animals on my
hate-list, or even leave them to suffer; it's just that I wouldn't
track 'em down to deliver a mercy shot, whereas I would try to for the
better animals.  Rapid-firing into a herd of goats is right out.
About the only animals I'd even consider that about are sharks.  I
hate sharks.  And even then I'd poss. not condone it.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I can see an opening for the Four Lusers of the Apocalypse: `I didn't
change anything'; `My e-mail doesn't work';  `I can't print' and `Is the
network broken?'                                          --Paul McAuley

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:22:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:22:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DB71E0.3977B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB6C54B.322.477957@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB6D156.3272.7687E7@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 17:01, Tod Glenn wrote:

> It has more to do with the scarcity of magnum length actions that are
> suitable for dangerous game.  Thankfully, Winchester has brought out the
> 'classic' action and some good stuff is coming in from Brno.  Sorry,
> Remington just doesn't cut it and I don't care for Ruger.  That diagonal
> screw is worthless.

I've liked all the Ruger's I've handled, and not because of the screw, 
either. They've pointed fairly well, had decent triggers (for an out-of-
the-box rifle in their price range) and smooth actions. They also look 
pretty good to me (YMMV) and were accurate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:47:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:47:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
In-Reply-To: <4b.1b7f2094.29e70e82@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411172243.009f1c90@mindspring.com>

--=====================_9693781==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 12:06 PM 4/11/02 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet
>cover.  In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.
>
>   And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the first 
> place? The Lt. maybe? lol!

No, it was just part of the 3-color woodland cammo on the helmet 
cover.  Completely random.  But useful at night.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
--=====================_9693781==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 12:06 PM 4/11/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite><font face="arial" size=2>From:
Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt; <br><br>
I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet
<br>
cover.&nbsp; In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar. <br><br>
&nbsp; And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the
first place? The Lt. maybe? lol! </font></blockquote><br>
No, it was just part of the 3-color woodland cammo on the helmet
cover.&nbsp; Completely random.&nbsp; But useful at night.<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="arial" size=2>--<br><br>
Douglas E. Berry&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
gridlore@mindspring.com<br>
<a href="http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html" eudora="autourl">http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.</a><a href="http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html" eudora="autourl">html<br>
</a><a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/" eudora="autourl">http://</a>www.livejournal<a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/" eudora="autourl">.com/users/gridlore/</a><br><br>
&quot;Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<br>
sounds like they're snoring.&quot; - Harvey Danger</font></html>

--=====================_9693781==_.ALT--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:48:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:48:39 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020411162610.A25877@4dv.net>
References: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411172651.009f1230@mindspring.com>

At 04:26 PM 4/11/02 -0600, you wrote:
>On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:24:28PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> >
> > Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> > parts of the debate to TML chat?
>
>Gun debate?  Do you mean the discussion of weapons useful for
>killing/stopping roughly man-size targets?  Seems pretty on-topic to
>me...

Maybe at first, but it has long past the point where there is any 
game-usable material.

I agree, either private mail or TML-chat.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:51:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:51:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <200204120047.DWD04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>Probably the most work would be inputting the lists of 
>skills &c. You'll want to rewrite (not simply paraphrase) 
>the skill descriptions, as they are copyrighted.  There is a 
>process to get permission to use them, but I typically 
>prefer that my work be as free as possible of
>encumbrances.
>

I wouldn't mind the following: I write it exactly to the 
specs.  We get approval for a time-limited playtest - they 
say it's good, and they distribute it.  If they make 
anything,  I get a piece.  If it's for free, then I get my 
name on the package.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:06:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:06:10 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
Message-ID: <200204120105.DWD07544@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Given you predilection for sniping, I'm surprised you didn't 
>mention the .338 Lapua.

In the Sako rifle?  Probably.  But then again, I'm trying to 
get into a different niche.  Ever try to find the .338 Lapua 
at the store? Oh, that's right, you're in Oregon...

The main reason I handload is that Maryland State Law has 
funny rules - you can't sell the latest types of ammunition 
that a manufacturer produces without "approval" (there is a 
similar thing for models of handgun - new models of handgun 
are very rarely approved for sale - it took four years for 
the Encore to appear in Maryland).

>But go first class and get one of Pete Grissel's Dakotas.  I 
>think I pick a ghost ring over express sights for 
>adventuring.  Maybe 1x LER scope mounted
>scout-like.

I can get a Dakota action in the white from Brownell's and 
put the thing together myself.  Then I could send it out to 
get blued.  I'm not yet willing to do the really dirty work 
like bluing.

Ah, now I have it.  By your charts, the .338 is a good 
compromise. Did they ever make the Valmet 412 in .338?  It's 
been discontinued, but it makes a fast two shots.

You could, when it was sold, get extra barrel combinations 
for the same receiver.  So I could get a "shorty" double-12, 
loaded with SCIMTR for shipboard use.  Get the double .338 
for outside work.  And double .460 for pesky critters.

It's too bad the Krag action isn't that strong.  I really 
like that ability to top off the magazine without opening the 
weapon.

If I was playing in your campaign, I think I would be a PH, 
and would probably have a brace of doubles as per above.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:12:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:12:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Matthew Bond" says
<snip laser power>

I think I did a laser calculation on tml-guntech
which has a 6.8kJ laser in 0.7 milliseconds (not 
microseconds) that is more than capable of penetrating 30cm 
of flesh.  The assumption was made that I would be vaporizing 
a column of water, in 0.7 milliseconds, and that the target 
spot would be 1mm x 1mm.  We came up with 1000 times the 
power required to do the minimum vaporization and it came
out to 6.8 kJ.

So, it's the same as the .338.

Wavelength is 1.3nm, using a overtone deuterium flouride 
laser.  
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
In-Reply-To: <200204120105.DWD07544@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6DDB7.14961.A6E275@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 21:05, John T. Kwon wrote:

> It's too bad the Krag action isn't that strong.  I really 
> like that ability to top off the magazine without opening the 
> weapon.

How about a weapon like the Lee-Enfields in which there was a cut-off 
over the magazine. You engaged the cut-off so that the rounds could be 
fed from the magazine and loaded shots individually when you weren't i 
a hurry. When the sh*t went everywhere you'd disengage the cut-off and 
have a full magazine available.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:46:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:46:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Written by the Victors (was: Matters of Will)
In-Reply-To: <20020412005325.F414D27A9A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020411183439.00a4cec0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 19:20:27, "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> 
wrote:

>     The Terrans had help, and lots of it.

Not to mention their microscopic buddies - "the humblest creatures which 
God, in His wisdom, placed upon the Earth."  :)

But bacteria and minor races don't edit library data, and so, a thousand 
years and change later, the popular history has it that the Brave and 
Ingenious Terrans somehow managed to hold out for centuries against the 
full might of the Empire, then miraculously sweep over it to throw down the 
hated Vilani Overlords in mere decades.  (And then promptly fumbled the 
ball themselves, but the Solomani don't like to talk about that part.)

The academics know better, of course, but who ever listens to crazy old 
scholars?  Aside from down-on-their-luck free trader crews, that is.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:59:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:59:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the
 list)
In-Reply-To: <200204120047.DWD04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411215441.02284008@192.168.0.1>

At 08:47 PM 4/11/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>"Robert A. Uhl" says
> >Probably the most work would be inputting the lists of
> >skills &c. You'll want to rewrite (not simply paraphrase)
> >the skill descriptions, as they are copyrighted.  There is a
> >process to get permission to use them, but I typically
> >prefer that my work be as free as possible of
> >encumbrances.
>I wouldn't mind the following: I write it exactly to the
>specs.  We get approval for a time-limited playtest - they
>say it's good, and they distribute it.  If they make
>anything,  I get a piece.  If it's for free, then I get my
>name on the package.

Why reinvent the wheel here?
SJG already has a very nice character creation program (ok, so may you guys 
wanna do a LINUX port).
Ok, so the nice part is MHO from playing with the demo version.
What Loren was talking about before was the program they have tailored to 
Traveller.
Plus a big bonus of some method of generating/converting characters for 
other flavors of Traveller:
CT, Mega:T, TNE, T4...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:08:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:08:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411024937.01dc7010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020412020513.B8D47279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/11/02 at 02:50 AM,  laning <laning@wizard.net> said:

>Wow, hadn't realized that 'Salon' had already visited the PBEM world.

>Thanks for the good URLs.

You're welcome. 

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:19:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:19:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <200204120218.DWG00159@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>
>What Loren was talking about before was the program they 
>have tailored to Traveller.
>Plus a big bonus of some method of generating/converting 
>characters for other flavors of Traveller:
>CT, Mega:T, TNE, T4...
>

That's what I'm talking about.  No sense in writing the GURPS 
thingie again.  But a Traveller generator.  Might be nice to 
have one that did all systems from beginning to end.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:21:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:21:37 2002
Subject: [TML] [PROPOSAL] The Fornast Project
Message-ID: <LAW2-F100BKhwWn5WNW000021c5@hotmail.com>

The Fornast Project

I was wondering whether anyone would be interested in helping to detail 
Fornast Sector in the same way & using the same procedures/guidelines as the 
Delphi Project.

As a startpoint, there are the maps & UWP's at Anthony's Maps Site 
(http://maps.grandsurvey.com). Also whatever canon information was 
published.

A quick scan of the names indicates that people of Solomani descent had a 
major hand in naming the sector, several worlds appear to have been named 
for authors, artists and locations on Terra.

If anyone is interested in joining me, please contact me directly at 
gndonald@hotmail.com, use the subject heading [FORNAST].

Graham


This is the Universe ... Big isn't it?


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:48:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:48:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space 
travel, etc.?

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:55:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:55:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411225254.019d0e50@192.168.0.1>

Is this for a PBEM or a F2F?

At 10:46 PM 4/11/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
>Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space
>travel, etc.?
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:59:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:59:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120258.DWH03019@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin asks
>
>Is this for a PBEM or a F2F?

PBEM.  The F2F will be coming in May.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:22:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:22:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <F156LszeIOVn1KL99o200017a04@hotmail.com>

Traveller optics reflect (suprise) what was available in the 1970s.  
Basically, you are getting a hunting scope.

Since then, combat optics have become light and tough enough for general 
issue, and have basically developed along two lines.  First, the "dot" type, 
like the Aimpoint Comp M or Trijicon Reflex, have no magnification but 
vastly increase the speed of target acquision versus irons.  The second 
type, like the ELCAN or Trijicon ACOG, are low magnification scopes (in the 
1.5 to 4 power range) which give greater precision at longer range and 
probably also have slightly increased speed over irons at short range.  With 
either type of optic, you shoot with both eyes open and the recticle glows.

How could these two very different types of optics be integrated into 
Traveller?  They seem to be a pretty important development, but our poor 
heroes in the 53rd century are still stuck with iron sight or the vague 
supersight on the ACR & Gauss Rifle.  I looked over the CT rules and there 
is no provision for having a "fast" weapon, when that is probably pretty 
important.  Do other versions have weapon speed?

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:34:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:34:28 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F114GuOJ75lRN8aK38o0000ff5e@hotmail.com>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:

>On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> >
> > Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle
> > you like the look of.
>
>Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
>_ugly_:-(

Call me klutz, but I am so rough on guns that I am afraid to take the woods 
out of the safe.  There is also a certain utilitarian beauty to a synthetic 
stock.  Plus, in case no one has noticed, I kind of like black rifles.  ;)

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:35:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:35:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <200204120333.DWJ00923@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>With either type of optic, you shoot with both eyes open and 
>the recticle glows.
>

When I shoot with the Leupold Mark V M3, I shoot with both 
eyes open.  It has no glowing reticle.  If you're closing 
your eyes when using a scope, you're making yourself very 
uncomfortable and reducing your peripheral vision. Makes it 
hard to use a scope on a running target.

>How could these two very different types of optics be 
>integrated into Traveller?  

The combat system *sucks*.  If you see the rules for increase 
in aim modifier by time spent aiming in PCCS, and combine 
that with maximum ballistic accuracy at each range, you get 
an extremely accurate picture of how much quicker certain 
weapons and sighting systems can be at various ranges, and 
how much benefit they provide at various ranges.  The detail 
is so well done that you can actually differentiate between 
weapons.

There is nothing like this in Traveller.  The arguments that 
you see us have about "this weapon and sight" vs. "that 
weapon and sight" actually translate into the model in PCCS.

OTOH, the character generation in PCCS *sucks*
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
In-Reply-To: <200204120105.DWD07544@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DBA6E8.397D0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 6:05 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
>> Given you predilection for sniping, I'm surprised you didn't
>> mention the .338 Lapua.
> 
> In the Sako rifle?  Probably.  But then again, I'm trying to
> get into a different niche.  Ever try to find the .338 Lapua
> at the store? Oh, that's right, you're in Oregon...

Actually, I like the Accuracy International.

> I can get a Dakota action in the white from Brownell's and
> put the thing together myself.  Then I could send it out to
> get blued.  I'm not yet willing to do the really dirty work
> like bluing.

Gonna turn your own barrel and everything?  I build rifles all the time.  I
wouldn't care to try to match the stock fitting they do at Dakota.
> 
> Ah, now I have it.  By your charts, the .338 is a good
> compromise. Did they ever make the Valmet 412 in .338?  It's
> been discontinued, but it makes a fast two shots.
>
How about a Browning BAR (the civilian one) in .338.  I see they're still
making them.  4 quick shots.  Believe it on not, I've seen a BAR rebarreled
to .458.
> 
> It's too bad the Krag action isn't that strong.  I really
> like that ability to top off the magazine without opening the
> weapon.

One locking lug
> 
> If I was playing in your campaign, I think I would be a PH,
> and would probably have a brace of doubles as per above.

I run a PH myself.  He's an NPC now.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020412135535.A10116@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> The assumption was made that I would be vaporizing 
> a column of water, in 0.7 milliseconds, and that the target 
> spot would be 1mm x 1mm.  We came up with 1000 times the 
> power required to do the minimum vaporization and it came
> out to 6.8 kJ.

That's odd, I get 500 J/m for minimum-energy vaporization of water in
such a column.  Multiplying that by 0.3 metres and a factor of 1000
gives me 150 kJ.

In general, the problem with single-pulse lasers is that the vapour
(and/or plasma) absorbs and/or scatters most of the incoming energy.
Even for a 1 mm spot size and relatively long 0.7 ms pulse, you'll
mainly get a surface crater rather than a drilled hole because most of
the energy is scattered and absorbed outside the target.

The easiest way to avoid this is to lengthen the pulses until plasma
heating isn't an issue any more, but this means that the target will
probably move too far during the "pulse".

The next easiest is to have many very short pulses that cause
miniature explosions, and enough time between pulses for most of the
products to clear (in the first few pulses near the surface) or widen
the damage channel (in later pulses).  Rather than vaporization, the
primary damage mechanism becomes kinetic energy of the products.  This
is more effective on living targets, since it takes a *lot* more
energy to vaporize tissue or bone than to tear or break it.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:11:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:11:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <F626HHGNZ4mF1IT18ol00001f93@hotmail.com>

What is PCCS?

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:11:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:11:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204121200450.15966-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Derek:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> Good scenario hook.

 Thank You

> IMTU, there are Imperial standards for data storage and media, mainly
> promulgated by the Scout Service.  This is not a standard in the sense that
> all equipment is required by law to support it, but rather a de-facto
> standard in the sense that the IISS X-boat system uses a specific set of
> formats to transfer messages.

 Funny but I would personally thing that to be the case in this reality.
But I learned from a Coast Guard friend that they  train for some work on
Max. Then have a Unix/Lynix system in the field. I know that the holywood
special effects people love the Amiga and Light Wave prg. The Amiga
version. Remembering that in 93 Speilburg <sp?> was offering full new
price for old 1200s and 400s just to have a stock pile of the Amiga
special-custom chips. I know from a Video made by an Amiga Group, that I
had to return. That Nasa uses Amiga 1200s and Amiga 4000s. Recently I
learened that the IRS doesn't keep  old Windrone machines. So the records
kept say on a Winblown 95v1 is not viewable by the IRS. Keep that in mind
for an audit. Got that from the H&R block people in town.

 Personally and this is for MTU rebirth. I see things as being very
chaotic.By that I mean for example. Take the  computer wars of the 1908s.
FWIW the computers won <BG> I sold TRS <a.k.a. TRaSh> 80s for Rasio Shack
as a local tech. OK it is a known fact that Billy hates. But he did sell
his "Basic OS" to Jack Tramiel creator of Commodore and all rights for
$7500 <I'll send the e-mail addy of the man that was there to any one that
asks, Mr. Jim Butterfield>. The TRS 80, C=64, PET, Vic-20, C-16, Plus/4,
C=128, PC II, Colt. Those save the thr TRS 80 all being 8 bit C= modles.
These all had different forms of Basic as an OS along with a built in
interpreter.

 O.K. add the different Apples, Atarai, Franklin, Osborne <sp?> and for
the U.K. members I will mention the Speccy <Spectrum: flame wars on
comp.sys.cbm about this one> Each had a different basic. To the point that
they wer pretty much incompatible with each other. I know that ther were
other models using other Basic formats and loading. I know that my
prefered PC system uses GCR formatiing. I think another one is called MFD,
but am not certain of the title.

 Now take all of those and what I missed. Add to that the IBuM system
starting from the Pc jr. to current. All the differeent versions of the
windoze NT and ## themes. I mean can you today on the X thing read a disk
from a PC jr  on original media/format?

 Then add to all of that the number of imperial worlds and Independent
worlds. We won't ask about Darrians, Sword Worldsm hiver or the Zho. <BG>

 You did bring up a point that I was alluding to, a standard for Imperial
ships. Though the used Gazelle may not have even if it is a Fiery variant
<most popular IMTU> the current system. If this system is based off the
windoze. Then it is impossible to read a 20+ old disk. Even if Imperial.
Yeah I am a Wintel Basher and proud of it. <SEG> In a game concept. What I
am wondering as an example. Say your game in CT is in in 1105. Your ship
is 1095 era. Rather new for a team I know. But the disk you uncover.
Though Imperial is from say 1075. Based on todays theorem of disposable
computers. How can the competer man on the ship read it? <A> the equipment
<B> the current skill of the compter man. Does though make a great sotry
line. Now if you add the local tech level flavour on a computer and for
the use of the citizens of the planet in question..... Oy such Tsuris!

> It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the
> Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of
> pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding
> and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of
> languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate,
> lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications
> protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of
> getting messages into and out of the system.

 Point well stated. Computer incompatibilities would make the Imperiaum
fall apart. Before the MT saga. Pardon me for using the Commodore as an
example platform in this part. It is however the only one that I know to
any degree. On the concept of  being standard for msg and images. I see a
parrel to the C= PC platform. Take this msg that I am writing. Written in
PINE 4.44 my e-mail system. Sent out in ASCII. Though my actual system
uses the PET ascii as it's default system. HTML though for a msg does bug
me and a lot of people. On my system it presents all the commands as well
as the msg. Yet I can use a prg from last year called Wave B2.9 <still
Beta> that allows me to read in 80c HTML. In fact my book mark file is
converted that way. JOs a free Beta Test DL also will read on screen HTML.

 Images: I can veiw off line GIF and JPG files. Also I can pritn them
through Post Script and even EPS <Encapsulated Post Script> Images. There
is a tool that I haven't had yet to use. That will convert PDF to PS for
my use and zip it in PK2.04g zip. A format that I can also use in packing
and unpacking. All on a 1984 PC.

 My point of the above is that there is probably that there are those that
will upgrade the hardware and software for their system. As is being done
for mine. Though admittedly along a different vector than the windrone
system.

> The net result should be similar to the modern Internet - any computer
> manufacturer who hopes to have any significant market share at all ensures
> that their equipment can read and write the standard media and formats, and
> can speak the standard protocols.  This doesn't prevent the manufacturers
> from building machines that also support proprietary encoding and
> formats.  However, if you're stuck with a data chip in one of those
> formats, your best bet is to try to find the machine that wrote it, and
> copy the data to a standard format.

 As i showed above. There would be those that would create ways to use the
systems to see the new items. Though I do have a tendency to bristle at
the term "standard". Been a victim of that erronous ideaology many times
in many situations. I do think that some sort of "chip" is needed for the
interchange of Imperial  material. Though there are probaly PRGs to
convert the material to local standards. As i have tools to convert Ascii
to PET ascii. Or the ability to log onto a BBS or even here with Ansi
colours. Making the material sutible for the local inhabitants and the
systems that they are using. The question is the reverse possible? Which
is where the  story plot originated.

 Using today as an example. Can the Windoze users here read a file that I
make? Well some of them they can. The previously mentioned gwimport.exe
file. But that is only for text, not the images. There are emulators if
the file is make in that format <.D64, .D71, .D81> But only work if the
user hs the tool to use the files. Vice 1.8 IIRC. So I would suggest that
something in the reverse that is from local to Imperial would need to have
ben created. Or t here is some sort of thing. Like you mentioned the Inet.
Where the ability to collect items of interest is found in some form of
compatible mannerism.

 Though I sincerly doubt that the Imperium would alow any sort of history
revisionist group such as micro$oft to maintian such a terrorist strangle
hold on things.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:11:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:11:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <20020410.001437.-391371.2.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204121246530.15966-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:


 Davmoh Casan?????

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411234005.01fed258@mail.qrc.com>

At 06:38 PM 4/11/2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
>That sounds pretty good. It means, however, that ships might
>have a minimum separation, which affects fleet actions.

Compared to weapon ranges or the movement scale of the Traveller ship to 
ship combat board games, a separation of 100 ship lengths is insignificant 
(required ship to ship separations are going to be on the order of 
10km-100km; ship combat scales are on the order of 
10,000km-100,000km).  It'd take a pretty large fleet for the separations to 
make the formation extend out of a single Brilliant Lances hex, for example.

>Starting one jump field within another?

I would assume that "actually inside one another" is a special case of "too 
close" presumably the separation between the drives in this case would be 
one on the order of a ship length or less - the rough equivalent of 
attempting a jump from a planetary surface.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:22:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <200204120421.DWL00090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" asks
>
>What is PCCS?

Phoenix Command Combat System.  There is no substitute.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:31:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
References: <200204120421.DWL00090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB662B4.8090706@yarranet.net.au>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> "Sam D" asks
> 
>>What is PCCS?

> 
> Phoenix Command Combat System.  There is no substitute.

Unless of course you favour a cinematic "I have a gun and I shoot them 
with it" style of play in which case CT or Fudge may be the combat 
system for you. Each to their own.

Phill
(Who has played using the PCCS related Aliens RPG system and knows it's 
not his cup of tea but understands that others love that sort of thing)
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:34:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:34:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DBB173.39814%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 7:46 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
> Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space
> travel, etc.?

What are you looking for characterwise?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:34:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DBB1B6.39815%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 7:46 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
> Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space
> travel, etc.?


BTW.  When are you going to post something on the Corridor website or add
description to the mail list?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:40:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:40:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120438.DWL01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>  
>
>What are you looking for characterwise?
>
More Intel characters, especially a computer expert.

We have shooters and ship drivers, a lawyer, and one incoming 
intel type.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:41:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:41:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120439.DWL01247@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

This weekend.  I'll update the description tonight, though.
I wrote a lot of game material this week.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:47:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:47:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
Message-ID: <OF58588BF9.5C945756-ONCA256B99.0016233C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Zane commented:
>>In fact, I was having a discussion this afternoon with a coworker about
>>whether anybody would ever have the testicular fortitude to make a 
series
>>of movies based on the Lensman or Family D'Alembert series.
>>
>I'm scared to think what a mess a studio would make out of it!

You are also forgetting that the Family D'Alembert series _IS_ Traveller!

Or as close as nevermind.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:58:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:58:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411234005.01fed258@mail.qrc.com>
References: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020411234005.01fed258@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <20020412145541.A10353@freeman.little-possums.net>

Derek Wildstar wrote:
> It'd take a pretty large fleet for the separations to make the
> formation extend out of a single Brilliant Lances hex, for example.

Only a million ships or so...


> I would assume that "actually inside one another" is a special case
> of "too close" presumably the separation between the drives in this
> case would be one on the order of a ship length or less - the rough
> equivalent of attempting a jump from a planetary surface.

Of course, one "ship length" for a dreadnaught might be 10 diameters
for a free trader...  The Tigress might be safe, but the trader has
all sorts of problems.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 23:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 11 22:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEELHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412012202.01dde140@pop.wizard.net>

Frank Pitt:
>People are discussing "open source" or free game rules and
>claiming it's going to put game designers out of work.

You overstate what I was saying.  My thesis is that if open source RPG 
design gets really successful, then it will put at least some designers out 
of work.  If.  How many are displaced depends on the success level.  It's a 
very small industry.

>This is basically crap.

Don't be shy, tell us how you really feel.  <G>


>FUDGE is sold, and it is completely freely available at the same
>time.

Most RPG players of my acquaintance ( a _lot_ of people over the last 25+ 
years) are either unaware of FUDGE's existence or don't care about 
it.  Most FUDGE owners of my acquaintance paid somebody for it.


>GURPS Lite is given away, as were the basic rules for Alternity,
>among others.

I've known a lot more GURPS owners than FUDGE owners, and not one of them 
had the free version.


>The D20 system is "open source" and there are many designers
>making money off it, (or planning to make money off it) including
>Hunter Gordon on this list.

Yes.  I am curious to see how D20 will be doing over the coming months and 
years.

Again, I rarely see the world in stark black and white.  I don't think it's 
a choice between a world that includes open source RPG design but wipes 
professional designers out of existence, or has professional designers but 
no open source designers.  But it's a small industry/marketplace and even 
modest changes might affect it in big way.

My personal preference is we charge ahead with both professional and open 
source, and meanwhile the rest of the world buys a clue and realizes how 
much fun they can be having if they join in.  It beats watching reruns on 
TV.  The market explodes, and good fortune is had by all.

--Laning
"Imagine..."  -John Lennon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 00:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204120903310.10371-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> > parts of the debate to TML chat?
> > Or else I'll begin posting socialist and communist propaganda...
> > (not a serious threat, but about as relevant)
> 
> But how can guns not be relevant to Traveller? :)

Perhaps it is just the Scandinavian socialist welfare state mindset, but I
have also trouble seeing how modern guns relates to Traveller.

I might understand this on a PCCS list, and I might even subscribe one,
did I own the game, but this seems a bit excessive.

I understood that there is a tml-gun list somewhere. Please take your
discussion there, if you need to continue. 

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 00:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] forced to unsubscribe for a bit
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412022408.01dde4e0@pop.wizard.net>

My ISP is doing bad things with my mail server.  I seem to be able to send 
but not receive.  I haven't seen any new TML traffic for the last 24 hours 
or so.  To prevent the incoming-email equivalent of Three Mile Island, I am 
turning off my TML subscription for awhile.  I apologize to anyone who I 
was also on a thread that I was participating in.  Or maybe you're just as 
glad.  :->>

Back in a day or so.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 00:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <DAV32eCyWu1MRRNOqcC0001c03c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIECKEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

> > Star Wars Name =
> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
> > name
> >
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town
> > where you were born.

Antfa Rilon (eek) or
Tonfa Rilon (a bit better)

Antony (call me Tony) Farrell


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 01:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Fri Apr 12 00:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Unpublished Material Question
Message-ID: <LAW2-F94snwO5UGXtTG000025a5@hotmail.com>

I was wondering if anyone has a list of all the Traveller(MT, TNE) material 
that GDW advertised, but did not release, also if anyone has any info as to 
how far along the material was before it was canned?

It would make for interesting reading.

Graham

This is the Universe ... Big isn't it?


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 01:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 00:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <memo.472174@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B8DBB173.39814%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
May I pass this around to other potentially interested parties, or do you 
want to keep it on the TML?

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 04:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Fri Apr 12 03:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] BITS website updated - Includes Travellercon.....
Message-ID: <B9A03CCD-4DFC-11D6-9B38-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support
http://www.bits.org.uk/

The BITS website has been updated to include details of this weekend's 
Traveller Con at Hebden Bridge, and the forthcoming Dudley Bug Ball, 
Fantasy Fair in Peterborough, Strange Days, GenCon UK and Dragonmeet 2002.
  Loads of crunchy goodness.

Have a look at the Traveller events that are on in the UK!!

Dom
BITS webmaster
webmaster@bits.org.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 05:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 04:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204121124.DWZ00277@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mexal, 
Yes you may pass it around.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 05:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 12 04:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RealLife(tm) Battledress, next chapter
References: <20020412005325.F414D27A9A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6CA44.BBDCD63E@earthlink.net>

Leonard Erickson posted:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > This is kinda fun...
> >
> > http://www.aro.army.mil/soldiernano/
> >
> >
> > David
>
> Gee, you sent this on March 3, 1987. Slow X-boat?

Must be those posts on inertial suppression. <grin>


Actually it was a messed-up loaner laptop from work.


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 06:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 05:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204120903310.10371-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>

On 12 Apr 2002 at 9:06, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> Perhaps it is just the Scandinavian socialist welfare state mindset, but I
> have also trouble seeing how modern guns relates to Traveller.

Well if you cast your eye over the list of guns in CT's Book 1 and 
their descriptions you'll note that aside from the laser rifle they're 
all weapons you could find in a gun store or on a battlefield in 1970.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:05:08 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
References: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost> <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Well if you cast your eye over the list of guns in CT's Book 1 and 
> their descriptions you'll note that aside from the laser rifle they're 
> all weapons you could find in a gun store or on a battlefield in 1970.

... which means that we already have all the information we need on those
guns in our game.

Please...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
 <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>
 <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412091256.01fc0e98@192.168.0.1>

At 03:06 PM 4/12/2002 +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > Well if you cast your eye over the list of guns in CT's Book 1 and
> > their descriptions you'll note that aside from the laser rifle they're
> > all weapons you could find in a gun store or on a battlefield in 1970.
>... which means that we already have all the information we need on those
>guns in our game.

Nah...it means it needs a big old gearhead update...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty 
clearly to protect political discourse.
But liberals reject the notion that free speech is therefore limited to 
political topics, even broadly defined.
True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself. But why leap 
to the conclusion that a broadly
worded constitutional freedom ("the right of the people to keep and bear 
arms") is narrowly limited by its
stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away? My New Republic 
colleague Mickey Kaus says that if
liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest 
of the Bill of Rights, there would be
law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory." -- Michael Kinsley 
Washington Post, January 8, 1990
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <OFC6A9CE02.C6420851-ON85256B99.004870A4@pheaa.org>





Mark Urbin asks
>
>Is this for a PBEM or a F2F?

>PBEM.  The F2F will be coming in May.

What is F2F?

also will the gm give us pregened chars?

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:45:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:45:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F195GoE1k8LN6FWe7Xl0000b978@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB78DC2.16250.66B1EA2@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002, at 0:35, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      The Ziru Sirka, while stagnant, is ahead of the Terrans in the tech 
> race.  Sure the Terrans can catch up, if they're given the time.  I just 
> can't quite understand why they were given the time.

The reasons are simple but conviluted.

1) In the ZS, the way to advance one's career was through the 
successful management of "prestige" sector (ie one that had "the 
eye" of the central government). For much of its history (at least 
until the 8th IW), the Solomani Rim was one of the backwaters and 
as such it was governed by a long succession of chair warmers,  
the disgraced and the occassional outright incompetant. Any 
administrator with drive and talent who ended up in the Rim spent 
most of their efforts getting out as quickly as possible

2) Initially the ZS didn't realise that there even was a war on. To the 
Vilani the 1st IW was simply a series of punitive raids against a 
nest of pirates (an analysis of the Terran's not too far from the truth 
at the time). If you think along the lines of British punitive raids 
against the tribes of the NW frontier (ie a very minor effort). This 
was indeed fortunate for the Terrans as even this minor effort nearly 
crushed them in the 1st War.

3) The ZS assumed that the Terran's technological growth would 
follow their own glacial pattern. They simply had no comprehension 
that the Terrans could match their techonology in just 33 years. 
The very concepts of "reverse engineering" and "synergetic 
exploitation" were totally alien to the Vilani (they simply could 
never understand that the Terrans would just copy their techology 
and then combine different elements in ways they have never even 
considered)

4) Likewise they measured their potential to expand in the terms of 
their own expansion. They did not forsee the Terran population 
explosion that was inevitable. Also, they could not know that the 
Terran's advanced biological sciences enabled them to support far 
greater population loads and exploit worlds that the Vilani had 
writen off as totally uninhabitable.
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:46:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:46:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F70SDx1kLwxTQTYkWSz00001108@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB78DC2.21937.66B1EA2@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002, at 15:31, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Yeah, I've got to think this over even more.  To my mind, minor race 
> rebellions aided and abetted by Terran infiltrators should be a big part of 
> the Interstellar Wars.  There would have been uprisings and sabotage a 
> sector or so "behind" the fighting front and the minor race allies providing 
> the lower-TL cannon fodder for the Alliance's offensives.

No, not really, at least not until right at the end (the Nth War). 
From the 1st to 8th War, the Terrans were simply facing the forces 
of a single ZS sector. If the ZS central fleet had been brought to 
bear at any stage in this period the Terrans would have been 
defeated (eventually, it wouldn't have been a cake walk though). 
But in the 9th War they faced the central fleet and anihilated it. 
This is the key factor in the collapse of the ZS.

Picture this, for thousands of years the ZS had stood as an 
immovable colossus, fixed and totally unchanging. It had the 
overwhelming faith of the vast majority of its citizens, sure things 
were not quite what they had once been and something was 
"wrong", but nobody could quite put their finger on it.

Sure their were some disaffected minor races and occassionally 
they did rebel, but they were always put in their place and if worst 
came to worst, there was still the Central Fleet. The Central Fleet 
was the very embodiment of the power and prestige of the ZS. 
Undefeated for thousands of year and with unquestioned power. As 
long as it existed any rebellion was doomed and the power of the 
ZS was undoubted.

In fact the empire was by this time a tettering house of cards. The 
total lack of change had lead to a slow build up of social tensions 
that were just waiting to break. All that was required was a crisis to 
spark the collapse. As long as nobody doubted the Empire it 
survived, but the moment serious doubt entered the equation, it just 
unravelled under the weight of thousands of years of social inertia.

And the spark was the Terran victory in the 9th War. Suddenly the 
most visible and tangible symbol of Vilani power was not just 
defeated by anihilated. The loyal citizens of the ZS went into a sort 
of state of shock and the oppressed minor races saw that the ZS 
could be defeated. This gives a sort of sudden explosion of the built 
up tensions. Sure the Empire still has the exact same resources 
as it had the day before the destruction of the Central Fleet, the 
infrastructure exists to build new ones and lots of other ships are 
still available. But the Empire has lost the faith of its people and it 
is doomed.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204121406.DXD05867@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"William Lane" asks
>What is F2F?

Face to Face
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Doug C.)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020412140824.40827.qmail@web13402.mail.yahoo.com>

I would be interested.  Could you end me ome more
info?
Doug
<<dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>>

--- "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
> Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance
> space 
> travel, etc.

______________________________________________________________________ 
Music, Movies, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:13:22 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

What do our lovely Ex Mil Travs think of this recent development?

Mikey

PS You just know that someone is going end up eating the moisture sachet at
one point. 

PPS Can someone please translate what 'acceptable' actually means in the
context of below. 

------------
April 12 2002

Military scientists in the United States have developed a new battlefield
weapon: the indestructible sandwich.

It can survive air drops and rough handling to stay fresh for up to three
years, even in tropical conditions.

Eventually, it is expected to follow freeze-dried coffee, dehydrated egg and
processed cheese from the battlefield on to supermarket shelves.

So far, only pepperoni and barbecued chicken varieties have been developed.
Soldiers who have tasted them say they are "acceptable".

Scientists are now working on indestructible pocket pizzas, cream-filled
bagels and peanut butter sandwiches.

The sandwiches are designed to stay fresh for up to three years at 26C, the
temperature of a warm summer's day, or six months at 38C. They are the
result of a long search by the US Army for rations that can be eaten on the
move.

The breakthrough was finding how to stop the filling from making the bread
soggy.

Scientists at the Soldier Systems Centre in Natick, Massachusetts, added
substances called humectants to pepperoni and chicken fillings.

Humectants not only prevent water from soaking into the bread but also limit
the amount of moisture available for bacterial growth, New Scientist
reports.

The sandwiches are then sealed in laminated plastic pouches that contain
sachets of chemicals to prevent the growth of yeast, mould and bacteria.

The standard American battlefield rations, called MRE, or Meal Ready to Eat,
already contain ingredients for making sandwiches. But they have to be
pasteurised and stored in separate pouches to prevent sogginess.

The Telegraph, London
-------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>; from jenry023@student.liu.se on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200
References: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost> <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost> <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020412081916.A31020@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> 
> Please...

Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their sex
lives.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.    --John Ciardi

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:24:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:24:10 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip three year old sandwich>

ObTrav:  Ever wondered what was in those Rations?  It's just 
a logistical footnote in most RPGs.  Yeah, I have 5 days of 
food.  But how hungry are you?  How well are they packaged?  
How long can people really subsist on them?  How much did you 
pay for them (characters will always go cheap on the rations -
- there's no incentive not to).

We should have three grades of rations, that come "ready to 
eat"

Grade C  Civilian, cheap.  5cr per meal.  Not guaranteed to 
stay together if you sit on the packages.  Gosh, were those 
scrambled eggs?  You won't be eating these after a few days, 
unless you're starving.

Grade B  Civilian, expensive or Military Surplus.  8 cr per 
meal.  OK to eat if you don't smell it or look at it.  Some 
of the meals, by chance, will be good.  Worth arguing over 
who gets them.  Or you can buy meals blind, open them up, and 
throw out the ones you don't like.  Morale will suffer if you 
have to eat these for more than a week.

Grade A Military current, Civilian Expedition Quality.  12 cr 
per meal.  Even comes with a warmer, wow.  You will be able 
to eat these for a few months, but you will recognize the 
same entrees again and again.


________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:56:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:56:33 2002
Subject: [TML] forced to unsubscribe for a bit
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412022408.01dde4e0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8DC437B.3989C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 11:26 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> My ISP is doing bad things with my mail server.  I seem to be able to send
> but not receive.  I haven't seen any new TML traffic for the last 24 hours
> or so.  To prevent the incoming-email equivalent of Three Mile Island, I am
> turning off my TML subscription for awhile.  I apologize to anyone who I
> was also on a thread that I was participating in.  Or maybe you're just as
> glad.  :->>
> 
> Back in a day or so.

I can always set you up with local email on my server.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
In-Reply-To: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:23:34AM -0400
References: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020412090107.A31185@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:23:34AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> We should have three grades of rations, that come "ready to 
> eat"

Shouldn't the grades go in reverse order, e.g. Military, cheap;
Civilian, cheap and finally Civilian, expensive?  IME civilian rations
tend to be _much_ tastier than MREs.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:02:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:02:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel
Message-ID: <004201c1e232$ea7b0ee0$519793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C1E23B.3984D900
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 1st. A sample will be =
appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while.=20



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C1E23B.3984D900
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is =
December 1st.=20
A sample will be appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C1E23B.3984D900--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <200204121508.DXF06733@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>Shouldn't the grades go in reverse order, e.g. Military, 
>cheap;

I've had civilian cheap - too nasty for words.  Don't ever 
make me eat those eggs again, or whatever that greenish 
yellow lumpy slime was.

I think I had three grades of civilian in there, so let's 
rearrange the list

Grade C   Civilian cheap/Ancient Military Surplus
Grade B2  Military Surplus
Grade B1  Civilian average
Grade A2  Current Military
Grade A1  Civilian Expedition Grade

The military food packs, and the Grade A1 come in durable 
packaging, and are shelf stable in extreme environments.
The military takes less preparation.
Grade A1 and A2 include heaters, condiments, etc.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3636@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E234.E92A6110
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

COOL!!  Can't wait to see it :)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: MJ Dougherty [mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:01 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel


 
Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 1st. A sample will be appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. 
 
 
 
Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses


------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E234.E92A6110
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">


<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=433291515-12042002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>COOL!!&nbsp; Can't wait to see it :)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=433291515-12042002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Jesse</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> MJ Dougherty 
  [mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 12, 2002 8:01 
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> tml@travellercentral.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TML] Traveller 
  novel<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 
  1st. A sample will be appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. 
  </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, Quiklink 
  Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E234.E92A6110--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018630776.524.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> "Matthew Bond" says
> <snip laser power>
> 
> I think I did a laser calculation on tml-guntech
> which has a 6.8kJ laser in 0.7 milliseconds (not 
> microseconds) that is more than capable of penetrating 30cm 
> of flesh.  The assumption was made that I would be vaporizing 
> a column of water, in 0.7 milliseconds, and that the target 
> spot would be 1mm x 1mm.  We came up with 1000 times the 
> power required to do the minimum vaporization and it came
> out to 6.8 kJ.

Hm...of course, against a target moving at more than 1m/s relative to your aim
point, you're going to have noticeable wandering during the beam period, making
the laser relatively inefficient at snapshots and the like.  In addition,
energy requirement to boil body temperature water is roughly 2.5 kJ/gram and
you're hitting 0.24 grams of material, for a vaporization energy of about 600
joules.

(Tim: I think you gave vaporization energy in calories, not joules).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412081916.A31020@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020412171320.46876.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start
> mentioning their sex
> lives.

Yeah, but there are rarely more than 10-15 off-topic
total posts on one of those threads before someone
(usually politely) asks them to either drop it or move
off the tml.  The gun topics have gone on for much
longer than 10-15 posts and lost topic either Monday
or Tuesday.  Suggestions:

1.  Move the discussion to private e-mail
2.  Move the discussion to tml-guntech
3.  Move the discussion to tml-chat
4.  Move the discussion to a gearhead list
5.  Bring it back to topic by relating to existing
combat rules or by designing new combat rules.
6.  Drop it altogether.

But please, don't keep it here without retaining game
relevance.  Discussions about which gun you prefer is
fine, but it is not on topic.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204121730.DXL01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>
>Hm...of course, against a target moving at more than 1m/s 
>relative to your aim point, you're going to have noticeable 
>wandering during the beam period, making
>the laser relatively inefficient at snapshots and the like.  
>In addition,
>energy requirement to boil body temperature water is roughly 
>2.5 kJ/gram and
>you're hitting 0.24 grams of material, for a vaporization 
>energy of about 600
>joules.
>

The calculation is over on tml-guntech. It is based on 
calculations done by the Air Force to determine required 
fluence levels to damage or vaporize a target. In their case, 
they were targeting mild steel.  I am targeting water. I 
first calculated the amount of material to be vaporized. I 
then assumed that it would take 1000 times that amount of 
energy, because of movement, armor, etc.  You may notice, 
however, that the reflectivity of mild unpolished steel is 
around 90% for a 1.3 nm wavelength beam.  The human body, 
OTOH, is around 10%.  So if you're not armored, my 1000 
factor is very, very conservative.  Even if we don't have an 
accurate model of penetration, I am fairly confident that 
raising the required energy by a factor of 1000 should get us 
some results other than a surface explosion.

Since we're using an overtone DF laser at 1.3nm, the 
atmosphere (according to published data) is not going to 
absorb any relevant percentage of the beam.

I also picked a very small spot size 1 mm x 1 mm.  If we make 
the spot size larger, say 1 cm x 1 cm, the power requirements 
really rise.

I have seen a continuous beam of similar spot size operating 
at a much lower power level.  It slices through 2 meters of 
layered fabric, cutting cloth for dresses.  The effect is 
nearly instantaneous.  Much faster than a saw or knife blade 
would ever be on a stack like that.  I was warned that if a 
human was ever inside the unit when it was operating, they 
would be cut instantly into the pattern.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <E16w5Hj-00044A-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

=20
> Face to Face

Where at?

Beth



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204121730.DXL01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018634628.8505.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> The calculation is over on tml-guntech.

Aha.  I found your error.  To quote:

>We want a wound channel approximately 1 mm x 1 mm, completely through the
theoretical 30 cm thick body that Tod uses for his calculations.

>The spot size will be 1mm x 1mm.

>This is 0.003 cc of water.

0.1 cm x 0.1cm x 30 cm = 0.3 cc.  You have a factor of 100 error.  Note that
your total energy requirement may still be credible, since you used a factor of
1,000 inefficiency.  I've seen pulsed laser calculations that would allow
blowthrough on as little as one kilojoule.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:10:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:10:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204121809.DXL07040@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Beth" asks
>> Face to Face
>
>Where at?
>
germantown, maryland
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204121814.DXL07610@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony says Aha
<snip>

ObTrav: I like a laser rifle from the aesthetic, CT 
perspective.  I have this view of "the spacers", people who 
come from the stars to have adventures on some remote 
planet.  And it isn't "practical" or "realistic".  I almost 
think that the whole plasma weapon thing is unnecessary.

Still, I like those ray guns in "Mars Attacks".  Give me one 
of those, thank you. Cool sound, fantastic effect.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:49:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:49:09 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <3CB72B6D.1443A6E7@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] The "gun" debate
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>> 
>> Please...
>
> Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> sex lives.

Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
subscribe via the digest. 

Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT 
political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to 
keep the list Traveller focused.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB72B6D.1443A6E7@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412150348.00b8d080@urbin.net>

At 01:46 PM 4/12/02 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> > From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> >> Please...
> > Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> > sex lives.
>Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
>subscribe via the digest.
>Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
>mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT
>political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to
>keep the list Traveller focused.

Hmmm...I haven't noticed the thread discussing the politics of ownership,
just the mechanics of the firearms and the wounds analysis.

It is starting to drift to the guntech list though.

Actually a good on topic thread on snub pistols has been going on there too.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Unpublished Material Question
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F94snwO5UGXtTG000025a5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEFPDKAA.tml@downport.com>

There wasn't much Traveller bottled up in GDW, and there do not seem to have
been a lot of things that were started and then dropped when they were close
to publication. I'm sure there were any number of ideas that were scrapped
because they were good enough :)

On the other hand, several of the licensees did die with good stuff in the
pipeline. Gamelords, Ltd. had several good items. one was Grand Survey,
which they sold to DGP. A couple of others were published recently by
Cargonaut Press. Paranoia Press had one or two items in the pipeline. DGP
had several when they went under, and at least one item, Lords of Thunder,
was put out as an article instead of a book.

For my money, some of the best stuff that has never seen wide circulation is
in some of the old fanzines; Between Worlds, Imperium Staple, Working
Passage, Parasec, Alien Star, Third Imperium, and many more. I'd like to see
some of those published on the web as Security Leak has been. The fanzines
were the WWW of their day. If anyone knows how to get in touch with
publishers of these old fanzines, let me know and I will work on web
publication.
_____________________________________

       http://www.downport.com
       The Traveller Web Portal
       webmaster@downport.com

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Graham Donald

I was wondering if anyone has a list of all the Traveller(MT, TNE) material
that GDW advertised, but did not release, also if anyone has any info as to
how far along the material was before it was canned?

It would make for interesting reading.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel
In-Reply-To: <004201c1e232$ea7b0ee0$519793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <004201c1e232$ea7b0ee0$519793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <200204121530190649.99C963A7@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 4/12/2002 at 4:00 PM MJ Dougherty wrote:

>Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 1st. A sample will be=
 appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. 
>

The Diaspora Phoenix sample has been posted and is available at:

http://www.TravellerRPG.com/TNE/DiasporaPhoenix.html

Hunter



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:57:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:57:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com>

>"Beth" asks
> >> Face to Face
> >
> >Where at?
> >
>germantown, maryland

This *is* the germantown near DC and not the one on the Eastern Shore, 
right?



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204122000.DXP05028@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Yes, Germantown, Maryland, that armpit of suburbia.  One of 
the largest concentrations of people in Maryland.

Home of the Department of Energy, etc.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:01:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:01:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Ack so close and yet so far.
ken
VA beach

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew MacLintock" <a_maclintock@hotmail.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Send more humans


> >"Beth" asks
> > >> Face to Face
> > >
> > >Where at?
> > >
> >germantown, maryland
> 
> This *is* the germantown near DC and not the one on the Eastern Shore, 
> right?
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Mac
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
> http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204121814.DXL07610@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018641727.2102.ajackson@ping>

Incidentally, where does the idea of 1.3nm X-rays penetrating atmosphere come
from?  I can't find any immediate references, and was under the general
impression that beyond some windows in the near UV the atmosphere basically
absorbs everything.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204122010.DXP06343@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>
>Incidentally, where does the idea of 1.3nm X-rays 
>penetrating atmosphere come from?  I can't find any 
>immediate references, and was under the general
>impression that beyond some windows in the near UV the 
>atmosphere basically absorbs everything.
>_______________________________________________

My mistake - it's 1.3 microns.  The document is Laser Options 
For National Missile Defense, an Air Force document.  
Apparently, 1.3 microns will allow a space based laser to 
target ground targets - there are more uses for the SBL than 
just shooting missiles.  It will be an effective anti-
aircraft weapon, and other documents indicate it will be 
useful at targeting individuals.

With the fluence they plan on using, and the beam time (4 
seconds), it looks like they could literally smoke you down 
to the bones with something like that.

They also indicate in related documents that the same mirror 
that would be used to strike ground targets would be able to 
spot and aim.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <20020412.131217.-193605.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:08:54 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> Grade C   Civilian cheap/Ancient Military Surplus
> Grade B2  Military Surplus
> Grade B1  Civilian average
> Grade A2  Current Military
> Grade A1  Civilian Expedition Grade

Ah the lucky service men/women of today are blessed with grade A food,
HA!

Back in 1972 - 1975 all I ever saw, ate, and enjoyed, HA, were C Rations
packed in 1953!!!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The great gun discussion
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020412135143.009f0220@mail.attbi.com>

	Ok.  I have collected firearms all my life, hunted all my life, reloaded 
ammo all my life.  Firearms are one of main hobbies, and so is 
Traveller.  The intersection of the two is interesting and appropriate, 
accassionally.  But, seriously, guys, {and you know who you are) not 
everone is interested in our firearms hobby, or is even allowed to have a 
firearms hobby.  Or allowed to or want to hunt.  I would love to sit down 
and bullshit for hours about guns, hunting, etc, but let's stop inflicting 
this subject on innocent bystanders.
	I hope I haven't offended anyone, because I really like everyone on this 
list, but if I have please feel free to flame me at d.gyles@attbi.net.
	Ok, back to lurking, now.
	P.S. You hunt with guns!! What wimps!! Real men use a bow!!!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
In-Reply-To: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB7E982.25362.4543EE@localhost>

On 12 Apr 2002 at 10:23, John T. Kwon wrote:

> <snip three year old sandwich>
> 
> ObTrav:  Ever wondered what was in those Rations?  It's just 
> a logistical footnote in most RPGs.  Yeah, I have 5 days of 
> food.  But how hungry are you?  How well are they packaged?  
> How long can people really subsist on them?  How much did you 
> pay for them (characters will always go cheap on the rations -
> - there's no incentive not to).

Not in my games they don't. Or not often, and very seldom after the 
ones that do have been given descriptions of what it's like to eat 
jellied eels, pickled goose eggs and candied locusts (and I mean the 
insects, not the fruit). My preference is to time this so that the 
players are eating when the description of their character's meal is 
given. Thyis doesn't work on some people, as they've eaten this sort of 
thing or 'worse', but they're seldom the ones being cheap, strangely 
enough.
 
> Grade B  Civilian, expensive or Military Surplus.  8 cr per 
> meal.  OK to eat if you don't smell it or look at it.  Some 
> of the meals, by chance, will be good.  Worth arguing over 
> who gets them.  Or you can buy meals blind, open them up, and 
> throw out the ones you don't like.  Morale will suffer if you 
> have to eat these for more than a week.

Sounds like a fussy eater to me. This looks like a fairly good 
description of our rations and I can't say that there was ever a 
significant drop in morale over a 2 week exercise period. OTOH the 
boost in morale after even only a couple of days if a fresh hot meal is 
shipped/trucked/flown in is amazing.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412081916.A31020@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204122324460.17035-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> > Please...
> 
> Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their sex
> lives.

Well, yes, but this still is _Traveller_ mailing list. Sex lives also a
no-no, please. 

The point of the list kind of gets lost, if I have to delete 80% of the
posts as off-topic. B-/

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a
 starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411151634.0209ac08@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:52 PM 4/10/2002, Texas Redshift wrote:
>Starship Insurance - Theft and Casualty - Claims

Good post.  A couple of points to think about: one of them being the 
general piracy scenario (but that's not one I want to go into now).  The 
other being the definition of when the ship becomes salvage (versus the 
recovery of stolen property).  Hopefully someone with better knowledge of 
maritime law can chime in here, but the rule of thumb that I've used IMTU 
goes as follows:

If the ship was stolen, and later recovered in any sort of operable 
condition, it's stolen property and not salvage, and legally belongs to 
whomever is the owner.  If someone assists in recovering the ship for the 
owners, there is generally some type of reward involved; most larger ship 
owners and insurers make sure that their reward policies are well-known, 
since this helps in recovering stolen ships.

A stolen ship should become salvage only after a reasonably long period of 
time (given the lifetimes of Traveller starships).  A stolen ship may also 
become eligible for salvage if the owner formally files papers to abandon 
the ship.  Companies (particularly insurers) may do this if it has tax 
advantages.  An insurance company with a large portfolio of stolen ships 
may choose to take the write-off and tax benefit of abandonment rather than 
hold the ships until they become salvage automatically.

The company would have to make a decision about the chance of recovering 
the ship (and it's expected value if recovered) versus the value of the tax 
shelter in writing the ship off.  This could be a useful adventure hook; 
freelance salvage companies probably scan the list of abandoned ships as 
they are published, because those ships are now "fair game" and any 
proceeds no longer have to be shared with the insurance company.  The list 
is probably just that - but a salvage company with good research 
connections may occasionally be able to recover such a ship where the owner 
could or would not.

If the ship was abandoned due to any sort of disaster or accident which 
made it inoperable, uninhabitable and/or a hazard to navigation, then it 
becomes salvage.  If it is ever recovered (for parts or to be repaired and 
returned to service) it would become (after a bit if paperwork) the legal 
property of whomever salvaged it.

This leads to some interesting adventure hooks: if at all possible without 
undue hazard to life, an agent of the ship owner (generally the 
owner-aboard, captain, or crew) or the insurer (generally an agent or 
freelancer hired for the purpose) must remain aboard a damaged ship so that 
it does not become salvage.  This could involve the PCs in many ways - for 
example, a ship owner or insurance company could hire them to spend some 
time aboard a damaged and otherwise abandoned ship.  They'd start out in 
vacc suits, and probably would want to seal and re-pressurize some 
compartment so they would have a place to un-suit during their stay.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:04:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:04:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204122010.DXP06343@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018645406.4851.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> My mistake - it's 1.3 microns.

Ok, that's more familiar, that's actually near IR.

Oh, if you want a really insane tech option (which real people are vaguely
considering), Hf-178m2 lasers make a neat gamma ray laser option which people
are really studying.  Some benefits:

2.6 MeV photons don't have remotely interesting diffraction problems at normal
combat ranges.  a 1mm lens, for a 1mm beam, retains basically full focal
ability out to 100 km.

Gamma rays, due to high penetration (90% reduction in about an inch of steel)
can efficiently deposit energy well below the normal surface layers, thus
significantly improving the ability to fire through both atmosphere and armor. 
A 10 kilojoule beam should be plenty to kill through quite a bit of armor.

Hf-178m2 stores a lot of energy -- on the order of a gigajoule per gram -- thus
solving a lot of the energy storage problems.  It would need some power input
to trigger lasing, but probably considerably less than the output.

Based on how x-ray lenses are designed (low incidence angle deflection), a
gamma ray lens would probably be a thin metal-walled tube, thus actually
resembling a gun, rather than resembling a flashlight.

Disadvantages: Hf-178m2 is radioactive, half-life 31 years.  Assuming you need
a stored energy of 10 megajoules, carrying an unshielded power source next to
your skin for a month would expose you to a mean radiation dose of about 10,000
rads.  Using real materials, I'd want to wrap it in around 2 cm of iridium,
which would add more than a kilogram to the weight of the weapon.  With
Traveller materials, just wrap it in bonded superdense (in fact, the barrel is
probably bonded SD as well); assuming bonded SD is 14x as good radiation
shielding as steel, half a centimeter is enough shielding.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204122116.DXS00114@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
<snip radioactive death>

ObTrav:  I was wondering how many rads someone has to take to 
be a "prompt" casualty (and probably a fatality, pretty 
soon).  Yes, there are some fairly generic rules (see Gurps: 
Space or Ultra-Tech I'm not sure).  I'd be interested in some 
house rules, because radioactivity has got to occur around 
fusion powerplants, in space, etc.  It's a Traveller kind of 
thing.

I keep hearing around 20,000 rads, but I've also heard that 
someone cooked like that can linger for a day or so.  There 
were some accidents with the Therac-25 machine where people 
were accidentally given the maximum output of the machine 
because of software errors.  Some of the doses were in that 
range.

Also, it's not clear how they calculate dosage.  In the 
accident for the Therac, they describe radiation through a 
very small cross-section of the body, but also describe a 
calculated "whole-body" dose.

If shielding worked that well per your gadget, then it would 
be possible to build a small short range weapon that 
consisted of shielding, a source that could produce a 20,000 
rad/sec emission, and a shutter.

I don't think that there's a handwave for "my body is dead 
and I don't know it yet".
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204122116.DXS00114@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018646710.9067.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> Anthony Jackson says
> <snip radioactive death>
> 
> ObTrav:  I was wondering how many rads someone has to take to 
> be a "prompt" casualty (and probably a fatality, pretty 
> soon).  Yes, there are some fairly generic rules (see Gurps: 
> Space or Ultra-Tech I'm not sure).  I'd be interested in some 
> house rules, because radioactivity has got to occur around 
> fusion powerplants, in space, etc.  It's a Traveller kind of 
> thing.

Well, in the case of the weapon described, it wouldn't be a radiation kill,
it's just going to vaporize all the material in a 1mm channel through the body,
producing rather bullet-like effects.

The effects of high doses of radiation on humans are not well studied due to a
lack of examples, but 20,000 rads is reasonable for immediate incapacitation.

> If shielding worked that well per your gadget, then it would 
> be possible to build a small short range weapon that 
> consisted of shielding, a source that could produce a 20,000 
> rad/sec emission, and a shutter.

Well, radiation sprayers are the type of weapon that tends to get banned by
international convention, but as a short range weapon (100 meters or less)
radiation weapons are rather simple.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <200204122133.DXT01374@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson talks about radioactivity
<snip>

I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone 
can help out and pony up their house rules).

Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-
T) powerplant's energy output will be in the form of 
neutrons.  

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
References: <ML-2.3.1018646710.9067.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CB75306.59A09CC@premier.net>


Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> John T. Kwon writes:
> > Anthony Jackson says
> > <snip radioactive death>
> >
> > ObTrav:  I was wondering how many rads someone has to take to
> > be a "prompt" casualty (and probably a fatality, pretty
> > soon).  Yes, there are some fairly generic rules (see Gurps:
> > Space or Ultra-Tech I'm not sure).  I'd be interested in some
> > house rules, because radioactivity has got to occur around
> > fusion powerplants, in space, etc.  It's a Traveller kind of
> > thing.
> 
> Well, in the case of the weapon described, it wouldn't be a radiation kill,
> it's just going to vaporize all the material in a 1mm channel through the body,
> producing rather bullet-like effects.
> 
> The effects of high doses of radiation on humans are not well studied due to a
> lack of examples, but 20,000 rads is reasonable for immediate incapacitation.

According to FM 25-51, Battalion Task Force Nuclear Training, a dose of
8,000-18,000 rad is projected to cause the hapless victim to "become
completely and permanently incapacitated for performing physical tasks
within 5 minutes."  For doses over 18,000 rad, replace the word
"physical" with "any." 

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <200204122133.DXT01374@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018648147.2754.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone 
> can help out and pony up their house rules).
> 
> Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-
> T) powerplant's energy output will be in the form of 
> neutrons.  

Which is an excellent reason to avoid using D-T reactors, if anything else can
be made to work.  D-He3 can be optimized to only a few percent neutrons (caused
by incidental D-D reactions in the fuel).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 16:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 12 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fort Knox-Radcliff - Looking for Players
Message-ID: <184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a@aol.com>

--part1_184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I'm a long time traveller fan that has settled in the Radcliff/Fort Knox 
area. Looking for any fellow Traveller Players. I am experienced with 
Classic, MegaTraveller, T4, and GURPS versions of our favorite game. Contact 
me if your in the Fort Knox area. 

--part1_184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>I'm a long time traveller fan that has settled in the Radcliff/Fort Knox area. Looking for any fellow Traveller Players. I am experienced with Classic, MegaTraveller, T4, and GURPS versions of our favorite game. Contact me if your in the Fort Knox area. </FONT></HTML>

--part1_184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] eine Frage fur die deutschsprechenden Leute des TMLs
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

I need help translating a little bit of military radio talk from English or
German.  If you would like to help, please email me off list.

Vielen Dank,

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEHACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>

[Excellent comparison of 1600-1900 China and ca. 2400 Ziru Sirka deleted.]

>
>     That's part of my take on the whole problem.  The Terran Confederation
>victory over the Ziru Sirka is more along the lines of Cortez versus the
>Aztecs; i.e lots of native allies, and most decidely not a case of "Terra
>Uber Alles."

Mr. Whipsnade*:

You and Mr. Laning and I are in general agreement on this point.  Solomani,
whether Imperial or Confederate, suppress the truth of Vegan, Geonee,
Azhanti, what-have-you revolts that finally toppled the Ziru Sirka.

--Glenn

*An easy typographical error to make is Whipsnake, which is something else
again, I suppose.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8dd1a45b944@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:02 PM +1200 4/11/02, Frank Pitt wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote :
>
>>  But we are talking about security measure that are
>>  intrusive enough that the are a hassle to the day
>>  to day operation of a ship.
>
>Yes.
>
>Just as being searched for screwdrivers and penknives is
>currently a hassle in the day to day operation of an airline.
>
>>  Some people are going to know about them.
>
>Everyone will be _told_ about them. They won't be secret.

And if you can make that kind of link (we are preventing something 
that has been used to cause great loss of life), then you have a 
justification for the security measures.  But invoking intrusive 
insurance companies alone won't do it.

>
>>  Unless they are important  enough to make a _significant_
>change in costs,
>>  another company will be able to draw at least some customers
>away buy not
>>  having such intrusive requirements.
>
>The requirements are set by the SPA and the local civilian
>government, not the insurance company, as I already said :

It doesn't matter who is setting the requirements.  One still has to 
show they are justified economically.  (Though, in fact, the Imperium 
is very hands off and I _don't_ see the requirement comming here.  I 
_would_ be the insurance company, if it was justified).

>
>>  >The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
>>  >required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
>>  >may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
>>  >starport will do it (for important safety and
>>  >financial reasons,would you want an unwarranted vehicle
>>  >approaching an extremely expensve space station?), there won't
>>  >be any real choice except for the captains to take the risk
>>  >of not doing it and not go to the better starports
>>
>>  The presumption is that every insurance company will have such
>>  requirements.
>
>No, the presumption is that no insurance company will accept
>liability for an illegal ship.
>
>Because of that, if the ship owners wish to be able to recover
>the cost of their starship in the event of an accident, they will
>attempt to ensure their ship is legal at all times.

Well, the body doing the requirement, as I said above, doesn't change 
the issue of whether the requirement is needed.

>Think about the difference in damage potential between a 747 and
>a subsidized merchant.
>Then think about the greater effect that damage will have on an
>orbital starport.
>
>Security on a starship will be required to be tight to prevent
>"passengers" from taking control of the starship and flying it
>into the starport, or other targets of oppurtunity.

And the question is whether
a) Is this likely (just because some sort of terrorist act is 
possible doesn't mean that someone is trying to do it.  We didn't 
protect against the 9/11 incident because, in past, such an act 
simply wasn't likely enough.  The failure was to recognize that rise 
of those willing and able to do such a thing).  There are still 
things out there were someone could cause loss of life that we don't 
protect against.
b) What are the measures necessary to achieve this security.

Now I wasn't following the thread so I don't know what has been 
discussed on either count.  I just wanted to point out that you can't 
assume that an insurance company, or other agency, would mandate any 
security measure you can think of regardless of the need.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>

>In fact, hunters and cops seem to take "stopping power" much more seriously
than the military.

I wouldn't say "more seriously;" it's just that they have different
objectives.  The military is happy to wound an enemy soldier and take him
plus one or more other combatants out of the fight as they try to save the
one who got hit.  Hunters want to bring the animal down right away so they
don't have to chase it.  Police are often trying to protect themselves and
innocent people, so once they decide to shoot, they don't want the suspect
to get back up, or not fall at all.

Interestingly, the Colt .45 Model 1911 was designed to give American
soldiers enough stopping power to knock down an oncoming Philippino
guerilla.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
Message-ID: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1E287.5BD606E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term =
"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?

The origin is bugging me....

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1E287.5BD606E0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can anyone suggest where they first saw =
reference=20
to the Term "Ortillery" for orbital artillery?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The origin is bugging=20
me....</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1E287.5BD606E0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com> <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3CB77AE9.17CE776@mindspring.com>

Joseph Elric Smith wrote:

> Ack so close and yet so far.
> ken
> VA beach

Pungo?



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com> <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net> <3CB77AE9.17CE776@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <010301c1e282$a2382960$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Virginia Beach VA
Ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Send more humans


> Joseph Elric Smith wrote:
> 
> > Ack so close and yet so far.
> > ken
> > VA beach
> 
> Pungo?
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
>                                -Steve Martin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
References: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CB77CAC.A913834@mindspring.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> "Ortillery" for orbital artillery? The origin is bugging me....

Right here on the TML a few months back. I guess that doesn't help much.

Obtrav: Things like this probably happen with Xmail all the time.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 19:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 12 18:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com> <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net> <3CB77AE9.17CE776@mindspring.com> <010301c1e282$a2382960$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3CB781F2.33EEA6C8@mindspring.com>

Joseph Elric Smith wrote:

> Virginia Beach VA
> Ken
>
> Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [TML] Send more humans
>
> > Joseph Elric Smith wrote:
> >
> > > Ack so close and yet so far.
> > > ken
> > > VA beach
> >
> > Pungo?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> > www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> > I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
> >                                -Steve Martin
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Yes, I'm in Pungo borough. You?


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 19:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri Apr 12 18:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <3cb77b2c.15566185@post.demon.co.uk>

Richard Huxton <red@archonet.com> writes:

>I had a sudden vision of a jump-capable planet working its way around =
the=20
>galaxy sucking gas giants dry between jumps.

Using HG2, rather than Book 2.  Afraid I missed the price target
slightly, but cost overruns are inevitable on a project of this scope.
;-)

Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =20

MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
78,886,000,000,000,000,000 tons
Crew=3D394,428,000,000,000,000
TL=3D13

Passengers=3D0 Low=3D0 Cargo=3D1,498,825,000,000,000,000 tons
=46uel=3D34,710,000,000,000,000,000 EP=3D(lots) Agility=3D0 Marines=3D0

I didn't fit armament, but there's lots of spare cargo space to play
with.  This ship can also be supplied with a fuel shuttle which,
coincidentally enough, looks rather like a moon....

The crew needed for the ship is a little steep, since it needs about
65 million times the population of present-day Terra.  Also, my
geometry is extremely rusty, but I'm right in thinking that 4/3 pi r^3
is the formula for volume of a sphere, aren't I?  (And that Earth's
radius is 6,412,000m).

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018630776.524.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <ML-2.3.1018630776.524.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020413123016.B12650@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> (Tim: I think you gave vaporization energy in calories, not joules).

Ick!  No, I just mistyped 2.3e5 instead of 2.3e6 joules per kilogram
for latent heat of vaporization :/ Of course, that means that the
original 6.8kJ calculation was even further off.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chem Det Missiles
References: <20020410050411.0205627AA5@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB798C4.4E90DEB3@earthlink.net>

Question for the list:

Has anyone developed any design rules for chem-det missiles
in a rulesset other than GURPS?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018641727.2102.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204121814.DXL07610@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <ML-2.3.1018641727.2102.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020413123527.C12650@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Incidentally, where does the idea of 1.3nm X-rays penetrating
> atmosphere come from?

I expect it's a typo for 1.3 um.  Of course, you need handwave
focussing to get a 1mm spot size with such a wavelength in a
pistol-sized weapon past 20 metres or so, but that's not problem for
Traveller.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB75306.59A09CC@premier.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1018646710.9067.ajackson@ping> <3CB75306.59A09CC@premier.net>
Message-ID: <20020413124722.D12650@freeman.little-possums.net>

John Groth wrote:
> According to FM 25-51, Battalion Task Force Nuclear Training, a dose
> of 8,000-18,000 rad is projected to cause the hapless victim to
> "become completely and permanently incapacitated for performing
> physical tasks within 5 minutes."

Yep.  Good if you want to make sure someone dies rather soon, but not
as good if they're actively shooting at you *right now*.

Note: For gamma rays, a whole-body dose of 18000 rads works out to an
absorbed energy of about 15 kJ.  I reckon absorbing 15 kJ of laser or
kinetic energy would "completely and permanently incapacitate" the
victim pretty quickly too.

A nuclear damper in the area is probably going to nullify a radiation
weapon based on decay of radioactive isotopes.  Not that I'm saying
that's the only way to build a radiation weapon, of course, but
something to be aware of.  If set to accelerate decay, it might even
melt down the weapon with disastrous consequences to the wielder.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 21:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Doug C.)
Date: Fri Apr 12 20:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
References: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <3CB77CAC.A913834@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB7A9FD.3BD6AF65@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hmmm,
Seems to me there is a ref in 'The Spinward Marches Campaign'
Douglas

alan spik wrote:

> MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> > Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> > "Ortillery" for orbital artillery? The origin is bugging me....
>
> Right here on the TML a few months back. I guess that doesn't help much.
>
> Obtrav: Things like this probably happen with Xmail all the time.
>
> --
> Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
>                                -Steve Martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 21:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 20:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
Message-ID: <200204130346.DYF01090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ortillery?

I saw it in Dirtside, a game to go with Full Thrust.

But I may have seen it in an SF novel before.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 22:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Fri Apr 12 21:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413085805.02756ec8@pop3.norton.antivirus>

At 01:05 AM 13/04/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term "Ortillery" 
>for orbital artillery?
>
>The origin is bugging me....

First I saw of it was in 'GT-Ground Forces'.
Hated it at first, but the term has grown on me.

Andrei Nikulinsky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 22:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Fri Apr 12 21:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001201c1e2a4$8e34e670$2f7de40c@loki>

Maray Rijam to some and Arkers Ayerin to others:

has been off the list for a few days and close to a grand in messages
but he already sees some good stuff. He'll have Mark Ayers respond to
the best of 'em as soon as he gets caught up. Now if the damn exorcist
could get Mosiac Tapestry and Eslaan Marakyr and Ark Ramsey and James
Richard Walker III and Farquhar McPhar and a few more alter egoes to
share in the duties. Hmmm?

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 23:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 12 22:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <F209IlOAPE3EzbwJp8k00003548@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone
can help out and pony up their house rules)."

     "Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-T) 
powerplant's energy output will be in the form of neutrons."


Mr. Kwon,

     This one's sort in my baliwick, the shielding bits that is.  I won't 
even attempt to guess-timate the energy range fusion-produced neutrons will 
have, but I'll assume (gulp) they won't be too far off from fission 
generated ones.
     The short story is that you'll need some heavy shielding, but not a bad 
as the equivalent in gamma radiation will require.  The shielding you choose 
should have LOTS of hydrogen in it as hydrogen atoms will slow, reflect, and 
eventually stop neutrons better than anything else.
     One nasty side effect of neutron radiation will be the eventual 
deterioration of the materials your power plant is made of.(The early 
embrittlement of fission reactor vessels due to neutron bombardment is the 
reason some plants in the US have been decommisioned ahead of schedule.)  
Annual maintenance might involve detection and replacement of components 
effected by neutron exposure.
     GURPS Compedium II has servicable rad rules.  IIRC, there are some MT 
rules in a DGP Digest issue that deal with exposure rather exhaustively.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 23:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri Apr 12 22:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
In-Reply-To: <3CB7A9FD.3BD6AF65@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEEOEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

> MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> > Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> > "Ortillery" for orbital artillery? The origin is bugging me....
>
> Right here on the TML a few months back. I guess that doesn't help much.
>
> Obtrav: Things like this probably happen with Xmail all the time.
-----------
There was a description in the JTAS Issue number 9 page 21 This is the issue
which first described the organisation of the Duke of Reginas Huscarles. The
unit had  an attached ortillery squadron consisting of 3 system defence
boats. The unit at this time also had a squadron of 10 50dt single place
fighters and 2 50dt dual place fighters in the units flight HQ

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 23:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 22:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <200204130523.DYJ00139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" says
>
>     The short story is that you'll need some heavy 
>shielding, but not a bad as the equivalent in gamma 
>radiation will require.  The shielding you choose 
>should have LOTS of hydrogen in it as hydrogen atoms will 
>slow, reflect, and eventually stop neutrons better than 
>anything else.

Some of the neutrons need to be captured and converted to 
thermal energy - probably the liquid lithium blanket we 
always hear about.  After that, polyethylene, and lots of it.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 00:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (nellkyn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 23:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
References: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <006001c1e2b7$f0047100$81e868d5@k5k9u6>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1E2C0.20DF7C40
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

First edition of the Dirtside wargames rules by Ground Zero Games. Sorry =
I don't know what year they were published but it was prior to 1989, if =
my memory serves me correctly. Try contacting GZG directly as Jon =
Tuffley may be able to let you know where he first heard the term. =
Failing that, the GZG Mailing list may be able to help.

Off to TravCon in 15 minutes. See you there if you're coming.

Neil
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: MJ Dougherty=20
  To: tml@travellercentral.com=20
  Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 1:05 AM
  Subject: [TML] Ortillery


  Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term =
"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
  =20
  The origin is bugging me....

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1E2C0.20DF7C40
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>First edition of the Dirtside wargames =
rules by=20
Ground Zero Games. Sorry I don't know what year they were published but =
it was=20
prior to 1989, if my memory serves me correctly. Try contacting GZG =
directly as=20
Jon Tuffley may be able to let you know where he first heard the term. =
Failing=20
that, the GZG Mailing list may be able to help.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Off to TravCon in 15 minutes. See you =
there if=20
you're coming.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Neil</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk" =
title=3Dmartinjd@globalnet.co.uk>MJ=20
  Dougherty</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:tml@travellercentral.com"=20
  title=3Dtml@travellercentral.com>tml@travellercentral.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, April 13, 2002 =
1:05=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [TML] Ortillery</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can anyone suggest where they first =
saw reference=20
  to the Term "Ortillery" for orbital artillery?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The origin is bugging=20
me....</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1E2C0.20DF7C40--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 01:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Sat Apr 13 00:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [Request] Black War Ships, statistics/history
Message-ID: <LAW2-F143KWtXgzyKyF00003ac6@hotmail.com>

Hi,

I'm interested in if possible/legal obtaining a copy of the article in 
Challenge 60, which covered the history/stats of the "Black War" ships 
produced in the lead up to the collapse. Either a .txt or .pdf file is 
acceptable.

Graham

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 02:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 01:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204110412.g3B4CU601389@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20412.221249.4a6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard writes:
>> The problem is, different things depend on *different* ratios. 
>> 
>> Some depend on things like the charge to mass ratio of particles.
>> Others depend on things like the ratios of the *squares* of of things.
>> And some are things like square roots. Or weirder ratios. 
>> 
>> You *can't* make them all match. 
>
> Even if all four fundamental forces & inertia (i.e. apparent
> mass) drop simultaneously by the same factor? Wouldn't then
> the ratios between these values (and those other values based
> on them) all stay the same? -Jim

As an example, a lot of things depend on the fine structure constant.
Which contains things like the *square* of the charge of the electron.

Which means that if you halve the value of the charge, the value of the
fine structure constant drops to one-quarter.

So the ratios of stuff that depend on the value of things drops to 1/2,
but stuff that depends on the *square* of the values drops to 1/4.
Making one set of properties *twice* as big relative to the other.

There are other things that depend on stuff like the 3/2 power of
various forces...

So, no, you can't adjust the properties at all without making
*something* different. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 02:06:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 01:06:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20412.223302.9s3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Apart from that, your goal is to have the behaviour of atoms (and more
>> complex systems) behave in the same way as before inertial
>> suppression, correct?  This requires more than just changing the
>> strength of forces.
>
> The goal was to theoretically examine inertial suppression as a
> means for making high accelleration (say anywhere from 50g to 1000g)
> doable for a STL-based RPG, so that we'd be able to have speedy
> interstellar travel from a subjective viewpoint (a few days to a few
> weeks from the viewpoint of the crew, although it would be years
> or even decades from the viewpoint of those not taking the trip).
>
> In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
> both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
> physics as we know it, and both of you know a lot more about
> physics than I do, so it seems that I'm going to have to relent
> and give up on this idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes
> infeasible, and we're left with FTL (which has already been done
> to death). Ah well... -Jim

The thing is, you are stuck on the idea of inertial suppression. It's
possible to compensate for acceleration forces, *without* messing with
inertia.

If you can generate artificial gravity of some sort, then you can
neutralize acceleration up to the point where the acceleration equals
the max strength of the artifical gravity. 

Likewise, if your drive uses forces similar to gravity, in that they
act evenly on all particles composing the ship, there won't be any
*apparent* acceleration. 

What causes trouble with acceleration is the fact that it's being
transmitted to the contents of the ship by the structure of the ship
(ie drive pushes on drive mounts, drive mounts push on load-bearing
framework & hull, frame and hull push on decks, decks push on crew). 

So if the drive generates a *field* that affects all of the ship
equally, then each atom (actually each subatomic particle) is pushed
*directly*. 

So the effect is that you are in free fall. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 02:06:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 01:06:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20412.224526.0W9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
>> the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
>> a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
>> strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
>> hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
>> when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
>> decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
>> just one simple example.
>> 
>> Hence inertial suppression requires more than just changing the
>> strength of forces.  If you want the atoms to behave the same way, you
>> need to alter fundamental constants as well.
>  
> Why does h influence the size of the atom?

Because Planck's constant is the basis of all quantum effects. It's how
"grainy" the universe is. Change it and you change the size of the
"orbits" of the electrons. 

> Also, how do we know that h is a fundamental constant and not
> dependant on the factors we might be changing (i.e. fundamental
> forces) with the intertial suppression scheme?

We don't. But so far all attempts to come up with theories (hypotheses,
if you want to be picky) that will explain experimental data and
observations we already have but have h be a "side effect" of something
else.

Or to put it another way, h is a *measurement* of how energy & time
relate or position and momentum relate.

> Are you saying that by reducing the mass, the orbitals of the electrons
> are going to be larger?

Sort of. The compton wavelength of the electron is h/(me*c) where h is
Planck's constant, me is the mass of the electron, and c is the speed
of light.

Lower the mass of the electron and the wavelength gets longer. Which
means the electron is more smeared out. Since the "orbitals" are just a
simpler way of looking at the way the wavelength of the electron
achieves a "resonance" at given distances (ie you could think of the
orbitals as being the distances where the "orbit" is one, two, three,
etc wavelengths long) changing the wavelength changes the size of the
orbit...

> I'm not completely sure how plank's constant enters into this.

See the above. Remember, particles also act like waves. Planck's
constant determines how "big" the waves are.

> If you say you are reducing the effect of an electronic charge by the
> same percentage that you are reducing the mass, all should be good,
> even if that means plank's constant has changed, which, I admit, I
> was hoping to avoid... but when you mentioned that you created a
> set of mechanics which worked perfectly well w/ all the constants
> changing... hmm.

Yes, but the thing is, the set of changes essentially amount to
changing the scale of the universe. Whoopee. No one *inside* would be
able to tell the difference.

> I'm thinking that perhaps these constants come out of evaluating
> quantities such as the size of an atom.... in other words, perhaps
> ZPF taming (inertial suppression & fundamental force suppression)
> would end up modifying these so-called constants. But I don't know
> enough about plank's to really make that assessment. Basically, what
> I'm driving at here, is if you dropped the values of the fundamental
> forces, would planck's constant also change as a result of that? If
> so, then we've got a bit of a squirrely situation which might just
> work mathematically, but which would make your average physics
> doctorate have a cow.

There actually *are* people who've tried to work out what the universe
would be like if the values of various fundamental constants were
different. And it turns out that anything other than truly miniscule
changes will result in physics such that *matter* won't exist. 

As I recall, one of the common results is that no atoms other than
"protium" (H1) could exist. All because of interactions between the
different constants.

> Well, I'm sorta torn between this idea and Alcubierre's FTL (space
> warping) idea, but we've discussed that one a few months ago, and
> if I remember correctly, you made the contention that it leads to
> wormholes and time travel, which we really don't want to deal with.
> That's (a small) part of the reason I was hoping to use this inertial
> suppression idea instead, but if it can't be explained in a way that
> a physics major would say... "hmm... interesting... and I can't really
> disprove it either... nor does it lead to ridiculous & exploitable
> technologies" then maybe it shouldn't be used. I'm shooting for
> something with a hard-SF feel. If we wanted soft-SF, we'd use
> hyperspace and quasispace from starcon2.

Ok, FTL *must* lead to time-travel. Period. No way out.

Because of the way time and space are related, *any* pair of events A &
B such that the "interval" (the 4d space-time equivalent of distance in
3d space) between them is "FTL" (ie light couldn't get from the
location of A to the location of B in the time between the two events)
*is* time travel in at least one frame of reference.

That is, for observers moving at some speed relative to A & B, B will
occur before A. 

And no, this is *not* a mere matter of observatiuon. *Correcting* for the
relative motion, B happens first.

It's a matter of geometry. Completely unavoidable. Things like going
thru another universe don't help, because it doesn't matter *how* you
get from A to b faster than light, just that you *did*. 

So you just have to live with it. 

In Traveller, it's moderately difficult to travel into the past.
Because the jump drive is "slow" enough that you'd have to get ships
moving at a fair fraction of lightspeed to get them into the past.

Also, just because time travel is possible doesn't mean it is *useful*.

Assuming global casuality is preserved (ie effects always have causes,
even if some observers see them in reverse order) but local causality
isn't (ie some observers see effects before causes), then you can
travel in time, but you can't *change* anything. 

So if you went back to last week to try to stop yourself from doing
something, *something* would happen. You might break your leg, or get
arrested for jaywalking or something. 

But if you went to last week somewhere *else*, you'd have some
freedom, because you wouldn't *know* what the past was *there*. 

Check out Dr. Robert Forward's novel Timemaster for a wormhole based
FTL drive that allows time travel and complies with this sort of
restrictions.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 03:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 02:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <B8DD422F.3A0F2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all.

I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
plug it in and get the cost in Credits.

See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to

http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 05:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Apr 13 04:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cb77b2c.15566185@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
 <3cb77b2c.15566185@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020413131941.21300d11.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> The crew needed for the ship is a little steep, since it needs about
> 65 million times the population of present-day Terra.

Not really.

Consider that the entire volume is used, compared to just the surface.

You didn't fit a 6G manuever drive. I'm dissappointed  :-)

I really, really have to do some FF&S calculations. I think that the
staterooms should fit well into the volume, even leaving space for other
machinery.

On a serious note: Really large ships need some kind of internal rapid
transit system. Has anyone played around with numbers for this? Just
designing tunnels of a certain diameter and making a subway system should
work fine.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 05:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Sat Apr 13 04:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] Website update - Links page refreshed
Message-ID: <8A25820D-4ED0-11D6-8747-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support
http://www.bits.org.uk/

Another website update - thank you to a number of people who pointed out 
that there were a large number of links that didn't work anymore. As a 
result, I've just checked and updated the links.

Additions include Traveller Central, the TML archives, Solsec, 
Quiklink.... Thanks to Tod Glenn and Mark Urbin for the suggestions they 
gave me in January (!!).

Deletions include Halfway Station and the Missouri Archive. In the case of 
the latter, does anyone know where it's gone or have an email address for 
Joe heck. I'm willing to put the material up at BITS but need to get hold 
of it first.

If you have a website you think should be there - Traveller, SF or retail 
related* - let me know.

*retailers get there if they either stock Traveller or BITS or will order 
the material in.

Cheers,

Dom
BITS webmaster
webmaster@bits.org.uk

---------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com----------
     MacOS X 10.1 - Unix with Style
"Reality, is something that you rise above..
We don't see things as they are,  we see them as we are."
Rich - Marillion - .com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat Apr 13 05:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] Website update - Links page refreshed
In-Reply-To: <8A25820D-4ED0-11D6-8747-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEGMDKAA.tml@downport.com>

http://traveller.mu.org/ the Missouri Archive

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Dominic Mooney
Deletions include Halfway Station and the Missouri Archive. In the case of
the latter, does anyone know where it's gone or have an email address for
Joe heck. I'm willing to put the material up at BITS but need to get hold
of it first.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 07:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr 13 06:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a  starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020411151634.0209ac08@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <DAV14LEGhUOjO0L6WkQ00004c57@hotmail.com>


> Good post.

Thank you, sir.

>A couple of points to think about: one of them being the
> general piracy scenario (but that's not one I want to go into now).

Same here, actually.  My main purpose here is to use the pirate scenario to
illuminate certain ideas concerning insurance and (later on) litigation.  I
have no interest in proving how many pirates can dance on the head of a pin.
<g>

>The
> other being the definition of when the ship becomes salvage (versus the
> recovery of stolen property).  Hopefully someone with better knowledge of
> maritime law can chime in here, but the rule of thumb that I've used IMTU
> goes as follows:

<Followed by five paragraphs chocked full of Traveller gaming goodness.>

I like the way you handle salvage IYTU.  I especially like the "Ownership
Abandoned" list put out by insurance companies for tax purposes.

After scrying using the Orb of Google, it appears that we may both mean the
Law of Finds rather than salvage.

Salvage appears to be recompense for the rescue or recovery of a vessel or
property for which ownership can be established.  In many cases, this
compensation is such that simply giving the salvor salvaged property is the
best way to straighten things out.

Law of Finds would seem to apply where ownership can't be determined in a
reasonable period of time, or ownership has been abandoned.  Law of Finds
basically says "Finders keepers, losers weepers."  You find it - you keep
it.

Note also that special cases seem to apply to historical shipwrecks and
military vessels.

http://www.cpanet.freeserve.co.uk/salvagelaw.htm

www.law.cornell.edu/background/amistad/salvage.html

http://law.freeadvice.com/admiralty_maritime/salvage_and_treasure/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lasalle/owners.html

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 07:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr 13 06:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Images - Visual goodies for Traveller games
Message-ID: <DAV582gNDSWnV8u622h00004bc9@hotmail.com>

Not to mention some genuinely fascinating stuff.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DD422F.3A0F2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>

At 02:02 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Greetings all.
>
>I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
>currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
>CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
>plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
>
>See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
>
>http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html

I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:19:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:19:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Russian translation?
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080300.009fb870@mindspring.com>

Quick question for Trojan Reach.

What is the correct translation of New Moscow?  In Anglic characters, please.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Russian translation?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080300.009fb870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB84D28.11DDCBDC@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> Quick question for Trojan Reach.
> 
> What is the correct translation of New Moscow?  In Anglic characters, please.

Novaya Moskva.

In as close to Cyrillic as ASCII allows, "HOBARA MOCKBA", where the "R"
is reversed to become the Cyrillic "ya."

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DD9BDF.3A104%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:05 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
>> I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
>> currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
>> CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
>> plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
>> 
>> See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
>> 
>> http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> 
> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> 

What browser are you using?  What currency did you try to convert?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB84E2C.D57685D0@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 02:02 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Greetings all.
> >
> >I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
> >currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
> >CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
> >plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
> >
> >See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
> >
> >http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> 
> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.

Well, things were less expensive when Traveller first came out.... ;-)

I get the same results, regardless of currency tried.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB84E2C.D57685D0@premier.net>
Message-ID: <B8DD9D45.3A108%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:26 AM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:

>> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> 
> Well, things were less expensive when Traveller first came out.... ;-)
> 
> I get the same results, regardless of currency tried.

Are you using commas in the amount?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DD9D45.3A108%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB8507B.5ABAC1B9@premier.net>


Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> on 4/13/02 8:26 AM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:
> 
> >> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> >
> > Well, things were less expensive when Traveller first came out.... ;-)
> >
> > I get the same results, regardless of currency tried.
> 
> Are you using commas in the amount?

No, I'm not.  (Should I?)  And to answer the question you asked Doug,
I'm using Netscape Navigator 4.78.


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DD9BDF.3A104%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB85132.3D63F4E5@mindspring.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/13/02 8:05 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
> >> I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
> >> currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
> >> CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
> >> plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
> >>
> >> See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
> >>
> >> http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> >
> > I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> >
>
> What browser are you using?  What currency did you try to convert?
>
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

I'm getting Cr 0 also. 1 to 1e6 Cr. With or without commas, periods, etc....

Obtrav: The exchange rate for TL 8 systems without regular interstellar commerce
SUCKS!


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB85132.3D63F4E5@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:39 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

> 
> I'm getting Cr 0 also. 1 to 1e6 Cr. With or without commas, periods, etc....
> 
> Obtrav: The exchange rate for TL 8 systems without regular interstellar
> commerce
> SUCKS!

again.  Need platform and browser.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDA624.3A114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:50 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> on 4/13/02 8:39 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I'm getting Cr 0 also. 1 to 1e6 Cr. With or without commas, periods, etc....
>> 
>> Obtrav: The exchange rate for TL 8 systems without regular interstellar
>> commerce
>> SUCKS!
> 
> again.  Need platform and browser.


Naturally, there is a bug in older version of Netscape's JavaScript that
I'll have to code around.

Version 6.0 works fine, or course.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DDA624.3A114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:08:53AM -0700
References: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <B8DDA624.3A114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020413101359.A27360@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:08:53AM -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> Naturally, there is a bug in older version of Netscape's JavaScript that
> I'll have to code around.

You might want to write the thing as a Perl ( or Python or Ruby or...)
CGI.  This a good way to eliminate such issues, since CGI is a much
more standard interface.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The age of chivalry is gone.  That of sophisters, economists and
calculators has succeeded; and the glory of Europe is extinguished
forever.   --Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020413101359.A27360@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B8DDA982.3A117%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 9:13 AM, Robert A. Uhl at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:08:53AM -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>> 
>> Naturally, there is a bug in older version of Netscape's JavaScript that
>> I'll have to code around.
> 
> You might want to write the thing as a Perl ( or Python or Ruby or...)
> CGI.  This a good way to eliminate such issues, since CGI is a much
> more standard interface.

But slower.  Just being quick and dirty.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits? Fixed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDA9B2.3A118%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:05 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

> At 02:02 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>> Greetings all.
>> 
>> I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
>> currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
>> CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
>> plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
>> 
>> See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
>> 
>> http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> 
> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> 

I fixed the code to work around a bug in older versions of netscape.  Please
try again.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 11:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Sat Apr 13 10:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: An Army marches on its stomach
References: <20020412150305.5859C27AC9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB866AF.A3E0F8AB@earthlink.net>

Mike asked:
>
> What do our lovely Ex Mil Travs think of this recent development?
>
> Mikey

Well, I'm not ex-mil but I am wondering just what effects the humectants
will have on the moisture-laden human gastro-intestinal system over a
period of time.

Yeah, let's just try a BM with something that doesn't absorb moisture
easily. Then again, it just may help the males in the military
understand
child birth a little better.
 
> PS You just know that someone is going end up eating the moisture sachet
> at one point. 

Naturally.

> PPS Can someone please translate what 'acceptable' actually means in the
> context of below. 

"Acceptable" as in they don't have to eat it all the time?


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 11:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Apr 13 10:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 11:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 10:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDB8E2.3A16C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 10:13 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61

Can you try again?  I changed some code and it seems to be fixed.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 12:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 11:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20413.101338.3x0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet...
> or even the moon?

size 7 planet is roughly 5,600,000 meters in radius. Or 748e18 m^3
volume. Or 55e18 dtons (at 13.5 m^3 per dton).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 12:17:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 11:17:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020411155818.5b11fc3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20413.101809.8V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Christopher Pratt wrote:
>> What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet... or
> even
>> the moon?
>
> Calculations for Luna follow:
>
> Using a diameter of 3.476 E+6 meters:
>
> Volume: 1.759 E+20 cubic meters

No. Volume is 4/3 pi r^3. You used diameter instead of radius. 

22e18 m^3

> Displacement: 1.257 E+19 displacement tons

1.6e18

> Surface area: 3.796 E+13 square meters

37.9e12 m^2

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204122116.DXS00114@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.112406.5e1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I keep hearing around 20,000 rads, but I've also heard that 
> someone cooked like that can linger for a day or so.  There 
> were some accidents with the Therac-25 machine where people 
> were accidentally given the maximum output of the machine 
> because of software errors.  Some of the doses were in that 
> range.
>
> Also, it's not clear how they calculate dosage.  In the 
> accident for the Therac, they describe radiation through a 
> very small cross-section of the body, but also describe a 
> calculated "whole-body" dose.
>
> If shielding worked that well per your gadget, then it would 
> be possible to build a small short range weapon that 
> consisted of shielding, a source that could produce a 20,000 
> rad/sec emission, and a shutter.
>
> I don't think that there's a handwave for "my body is dead 
> and I don't know it yet".

Doses above 600(?) rads will kill. But it'll take weeks to years. 

But as a rule of thumb, doubling the dosage halves the time to death.
And vice versa.

And unlike what we see in far too much SF on TV and in movies, there's
no sharp demarcation between "you're dead" and "you'll be ok".

Heck, if you use that rule of thumb I mentioned above, you'll find that
typical background counts will kill you in about 70 years. <g>

Oh yeah, most dosage stuff is LD50. That is, a "lethal in X days" dose
will kill 50% of those receiving it in that time. Some die sooner, some
die later.

We do have some data for *really* high exposures from a few accidents.
At least a couple *did* involve "prompt incapacitation" (5 min or less).

And the symptoms for that sort of dosage aren't pretty. Spewing form
both ends of the digestive tract, convulsions and other fun things.

Caring for someone who is *that* far gone is going to be really rough
on the other PCs. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:15:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:15:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.114937.2h4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Derek Wildstar says
> <snip derek's take on adjacent ships activating their 
> hyperdrive>
>
> That sounds pretty good. It means, however, that ships might 
> have a minimum separation, which affects fleet actions.

Actually, at the velocities most fleets will be moving at, and given
the danger zones of weapons, ships are *very* unlikely to be less than
*kilometers* apart, and likely tens or even hundreds of km apart.

Being able to *see* an adjacent ship in "formation" with the naked eye
will be *very* unusual. The excepts will be things like cargo and
personnel transfer operations.

> Would we also have another problem a la B5? Starting one jump 
> field within another?

Nobody knows what happens if you try. No ship that was going to try
testing that has ever been heard from again. <eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:15:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:15:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120438.DWL01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.115941.9D3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>  
>>
>>What are you looking for characterwise?
>>
> More Intel characters, especially a computer expert.

What, you have something against Motorola employees? <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:16:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:16:25 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
In-Reply-To: <20020412.131217.-193605.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20413.120658.7M5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Grade C   Civilian cheap/Ancient Military Surplus
>> Grade B2  Military Surplus
>> Grade B1  Civilian average
>> Grade A2  Current Military
>> Grade A1  Civilian Expedition Grade
>
> Ah the lucky service men/women of today are blessed with grade A food,
> HA!
>
> Back in 1972 - 1975 all I ever saw, ate, and enjoyed, HA, were C Rations
> packed in 1953!!!

Well, back in the late 60s/early 70s, I used to grab the Air Force
equivalent ("in flight meal packs") at the commissary to take on Boy
Scout camping trips. Basicly, we used them for dinner on Friday night
when we were tired after setting up camp, and didn't feel much like
putting a lot of effort into cooking. 

Some were better than others, but none were all that *bad*. And some
things, like the fruitcake and poundcake desserts were worth fighting
over. <g>

I was using a WWII vintage messkit and a WWII canteen & cup at the
time. Turned out that Lipton "instant soup" packages made exactly
enough soup for a canteen cup full of water. 

And the cans from the meal packs fit into the cup nicely too. Boil them
for a bit and they were nice and hot.

Then again, I liked most food in the school caefteria, so I may not be
the best judge of these things. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
References: <20020413111907.EC28E27AF7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB88500.956F16CB@ameritech.net>



> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:05:39 -0400
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
> Subject: Re: [TML] The "gun" debate
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> At 01:46 PM 4/12/02 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> > > From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> > >> Please...
> > > Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> > > sex lives.
> >Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
> >subscribe via the digest.
> >Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
> >mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT
> >political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to
> >keep the list Traveller focused.
> 
> Hmmm...I haven't noticed the thread discussing the politics of 
> ownership

<snip>

There were a few. Thankfully not followed up on by others. Hence my
statement, "the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT political
issues...." To be honest I may be reacting more to trolls in sig files
than to the threads themselves. 

Sorry if I've offended.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204121200450.15966-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20413.122049.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> learened that the IRS doesn't keep  old Windrone machines. So the records
> kept say on a Winblown 95v1 is not viewable by the IRS. Keep that in mind
> for an audit. Got that from the H&R block people in town.

Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system. 

The disk formats haven't changed (not the flopiy ones anyway) and the
newer programs can generally read the data files from the older ones.

>  O.K. add the different Apples, Atarai, Franklin, Osborne <sp?> and for
> the U.K. members I will mention the Speccy <Spectrum: flame wars on
> comp.sys.cbm about this one> Each had a different basic. To the point that
> they wer pretty much incompatible with each other. I know that ther were
> other models using other Basic formats and loading. I know that my
> prefered PC system uses GCR formatiing. I think another one is called MFD,
> but am not certain of the title.

FM (aka "single density") and MFM (aka "double density" and "high density").

Most "modern" floppy controller chips can't read FM disks. But a lot of
fairly recent ones can. For example, the Adaptec SCSI cards that
include a floppy controller can. 

With some easily available software I can read TRS-80 floppies on my
PC. To read Commodore or Apple GCR disks, I'd have to install the old
CopyIIPC deluxe option board in one of my systems. 

>  Now take all of those and what I missed. Add to that the IBuM system
> starting from the Pc jr. to current. All the differeent versions of the
> windoze NT and ## themes. I mean can you today on the X thing read a disk
> from a PC jr  on original media/format?

PCjr floppies used the same format as the PC. 

No idea what the X-box uses. 

What gets fun is when you need to read things like 8" floppies or the
whacko Amstrad 3" (*not* 3.5"!) floppies. Or cassette tapes, or stringy
floppies or other weird media.

I once had to recover a program by reading paper tape by *hand*. 

>> It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the
>> Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of
>> pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding
>> and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of
>> languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate,
>> lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications
>> protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of
>> getting messages into and out of the system.
>
>  Point well stated. Computer incompatibilities would make the Imperiaum
> fall apart. Before the MT saga. Pardon me for using the Commodore as an
> example platform in this part. It is however the only one that I know to
> any degree. On the concept of  being standard for msg and images. I see a
> parrel to the C= PC platform. Take this msg that I am writing. Written in
> PINE 4.44 my e-mail system. Sent out in ASCII. Though my actual system
> uses the PET ascii as it's default system. HTML though for a msg does bug
> me and a lot of people. On my system it presents all the commands as well
> as the msg. Yet I can use a prg from last year called Wave B2.9 <still
> Beta> that allows me to read in 80c HTML. In fact my book mark file is
> converted that way. JOs a free Beta Test DL also will read on screen HTML.

I have a DOS program called HTMSTRIP that takes HTML and produces a
reasonably formatted plain text file. It even puts in the "boxes" in
tables. 

>  Images: I can veiw off line GIF and JPG files. Also I can pritn them
> through Post Script and even EPS <Encapsulated Post Script> Images. There
> is a tool that I haven't had yet to use. That will convert PDF to PS for
> my use and zip it in PK2.04g zip. A format that I can also use in packing
> and unpacking. All on a 1984 PC.

There's a DOS program that'll view many image formats, including .AVI
and MPEG files, and play a lot of sound formats. 

>  As i showed above. There would be those that would create ways to use the
> systems to see the new items. Though I do have a tendency to bristle at
> the term "standard". Been a victim of that erronous ideaology many times
> in many situations. I do think that some sort of "chip" is needed for the
> interchange of Imperial  material. Though there are probaly PRGs to
> convert the material to local standards. As i have tools to convert Ascii
> to PET ascii. Or the ability to log onto a BBS or even here with Ansi
> colours. Making the material sutible for the local inhabitants and the
> systems that they are using. The question is the reverse possible? Which
> is where the  story plot originated.

Well, the idea is that there need to be publicly available standards.
Having multiple standards is merely inconvenient as long as the info
on the file formats is available. 

>  Using today as an example. Can the Windoze users here read a file that I
> make? Well some of them they can. The previously mentioned gwimport.exe
> file. But that is only for text, not the images. There are emulators if
> the file is make in that format <.D64, .D71, .D81> But only work if the
> user hs the tool to use the files. Vice 1.8 IIRC. So I would suggest that
> something in the reverse that is from local to Imperial would need to have
> ben created. Or t here is some sort of thing. Like you mentioned the Inet.
> Where the ability to collect items of interest is found in some form of
> compatible mannerism.

The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
to import and export files in those formats.

Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:16:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <200204122133.DXT01374@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.123907.8I6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson talks about radioactivity
> <snip>
>
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone 
> can help out and pony up their house rules).
>
> Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-
> T) powerplant's energy output will be in the form of 
> neutrons.  

Except Traveller fusion plants don't use the D-T reaction. They would
appear to use some form of p-p reaction.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:16:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:16:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b8dd1a45b944@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20413.124305.2I4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> And the question is whether
> a) Is this likely (just because some sort of terrorist act is 
> possible doesn't mean that someone is trying to do it.  We didn't 
> protect against the 9/11 incident because, in past, such an act 
> simply wasn't likely enough.  The failure was to recognize that rise 
> of those willing and able to do such a thing).  There are still 
> things out there were someone could cause loss of life that we don't 
> protect against.

Just a few things off the top of my head...

Within half a mile of each other locally are the following:

A major "tank farm" for petroleum products.
A factory producing chlorine and hydrogen chloride by the ton. 
A producer of liquid oxygen (with a tank several stories tall!).
A semiconductor related plant that uses large quantities of stuff like
phosphine and arsine gases. 
A residential area.

Oh yeah, tankers dock between the chlorine/HCL producer and the tank farm...

For a real scare, read the labels on those tank cars on the railroad,
then look up the hazard warnings for the materials in question.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:17:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:17:11 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20413.125426.3y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61

You should try upgrading to 4.79.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F216ap21GXYqZM8Wapp0001d245@hotmail.com>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

     "You and Mr. Laning and I are in general agreement on this point.  
Solomani, whether Imperial or Confederate, suppress the truth of Vegan, 
Geonee, Azhanti, what-have-you revolts that finally toppled the Ziru Sirka."

Mr. Goffin,

     Thank you, sir.  Having the MYMINES, Ltd. legal department agree in 
general with my proposals is certainly heartening.  It means that I may be 
actually on to something and simply not just off my medicine.

     "An easy typographical error to make is Whipsnake, which is something 
else again, I suppose."

     My spell checker keeps wanting to "correct" my nom de List to Larceny 
Whipsnake.  Of course, it also spells Traveller with only one "L".  Silly 
CPU.
     Appropo of nothing, feeding Larsen E. Whipsnade into the wondefully 
weird "Vilani by Lonnie" engine results in this jaw breaker:

     Aagarashirenedanashiramik Huugarashire

     I think we may have stumbled across the name of the Vilani ambassador 
who visited the Sol system between the 2nd and 3rd Interstellar Wars and 
reported that Terra was nothing more than a "nest of pirates."  Oddly 
enough, immediately after that visit, Ambassador Huugarashire was able to 
retire rather earlier than most Ziru Sirka civil servants thanks in part to 
a very generous bequest in the will of a long lost uncle.  Even more oddly, 
the bequest was paid in Terran Confederation sols.  All inquiries about this 
strange turn of events should be directed to the ambassador's new address 
and should also use his new title.  Please forward all correspondance and/or 
summons to "King Huugarashire, third hammock from the left, the Isle of 
Yap."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <F264Wf26myeOi1EkcZy0001ef51@hotmail.com>

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

     "Except Traveller fusion plants don't use the D-T reaction. They would 
appear to use some form of p-p reaction."


Mr. Erickson,

     I know you've posted information on the p-p reaction many times before, 
but could you do so again please?  I'd like to see what sort of particles 
we'd be dealing with using that specific reaction.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB88500.956F16CB@ameritech.net>
References: <20020413111907.EC28E27AF7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413165050.01a26eb0@192.168.0.1>

At 02:20 PM 4/13/2002 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:05:39 -0400
> > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
> > Subject: Re: [TML] The "gun" debate
> > Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > At 01:46 PM 4/12/02 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > > > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> > > > From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> > > >> Please...
> > > > Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> > > > sex lives.
> > >Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
> > >subscribe via the digest.
> > >Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
> > >mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT
> > >political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to
> > >keep the list Traveller focused.
> > Hmmm...I haven't noticed the thread discussing the politics of
> > ownership
><snip>
>There were a few. Thankfully not followed up on by others. Hence my
>statement, "the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT political
>issues...." To be honest I may be reacting more to trolls in sig files
>than to the threads themselves.

Trolling sig files...Golly!   Who would do such a thing? :-)

>Sorry if I've offended.

Perhaps someone else may have been offended, but personally, I'm pretty 
thick skinned.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 15:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 13 14:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <20020413.142703.-23853.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

Mark

On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:52:38 -0400 Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
>
> Perhaps someone else may have been offended, but personally, I'm 
> pretty thick skinned.

Oh, thick skinned huh?

What's your armor rating?

Turokan :~)

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 15:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Apr 13 14:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Images - Visual goodies for Traveller games
In-Reply-To: <DAV582gNDSWnV8u622h00004bc9@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV582gNDSWnV8u622h00004bc9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020413234102.6af49573.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> Not to mention some genuinely fascinating stuff.
> 
> http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html

*drool*

Lovely link, thanks.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 15:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Apr 13 14:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20413.101809.8V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020411155818.5b11fc3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20413.101809.8V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020413234327.7deee729.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> No. Volume is 4/3 pi r^3. You used diameter instead of radius. 

*sound of head hitting table repeatedly*

I think I had a bit too much stupid for breakfast that day...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 19:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Sat Apr 13 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEBPCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

John Kwon wrote :-
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone
> can help out and pony up their house rules).

Modified GURPS radiation rules follow (exposure levels OK, biological
effects off a bit in G:Comp 2).
Contact me off-list for d20 and MT versions (the latter may still
be available on the Freelance Traveller site).


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

------------------------------
Acute radiation exposures can have adverse effects. Check on the
table, rolling against HT every day the character is exposed to
at least 1 rad per day. Compare with the character's total
accumulated dose to see what the effects are.

Radiation Effects Table
Dose (rads)    HT Roll
5-70       : Fail :- A, onset 1d+6 hours, lasts 1 day
           : Critical Fail :-  A, onset 1d hours, lasts 1 day
71-150     : Fail :- A, 1d hours
           : Critical Fail :- D(H), HA within 24h
151-300    : Success :- A, B(-1) within 48h
           : Fail :- D(H), HA within 24h
           : Critical Fail :- E, 1d weeks
301-530    : Critical Success :- A, B(-1) within 48h
           : Success :- B(-2), C on exposure, D(H), HA within 48h
           : Fail :- E, 1d weeks
           : Critical Fail :- GI, within 48h
531-830    : All suffer A within 24h, C on exposure, E in 1d-1 weeks
           : Critical Success :- B(-2), D(E, H), HA within 24h
           : Success :- B(-3), D(E, H), HA within 24h
           : Fail or Critical Fail :- as per success, add
             GI within 24h
831-3000   : All suffer A within 12 hours, B(-3), C on exposure,
             D(E, H), GI within 12 hours, E in 3d+3 days
           : Critical Fail :- CV within 1d hours
3001-8000  : CV ; A, within 1d hours ; B(-3) ; C on exposure ;
             D(E, H, P) ; E, 1d days
8000+      : All suffer CV ; A within 1d hours and E within 4d hours.

* Key to Effects Table
A : Nausea, headache and vomitting (1d penalty to ST, DX, IQ).
Listed dice roll is for time of onset post exposure. Roll daily
against HT to recover 1 point of each attribute.
Critical success restores 2 points and means that symptoms are
controlled for that day.
Failure leads to the loss of 1 point, critical failure, 2.

B : Fatigue (penalty to ST and HT given). Roll daily to
recover 1 point of ST or HT on a critical
success. Failure loses 1 ST or HT point, critical failure loses 1
of each. Low Pain Threshold for seven days following exposure.

C : Incapacitation : -4 penalty on physical tasks for 2 days,
-2 on mental tasks for 1 day.

D : Skin changes. Erythema (E) is a mild reddening of the skin.
(H) refers to hair loss. Hair falls out within 24 hours.
(P) refers to partial thickness ("second degree") burns which do 1d damage.
Skin breakdown may ensue over the two weeks following exposure.

E : Death. Survival time from exposure without aggressive treatment
is given by the dice roll.

HA :- Haematopoietic syndrome - roll daily to prevent loss of 1 HT.
Stopped on critical success.
Hemophilia disadvantage in effect while ST, DX, IQ depressed.

GI :- Gastrointestinal syndrome - roll daily to prevent permanent
loss of 1 HT. Stopped on critical success. Characters have the Weak
Immune System disadvantage while affected, and are prone to diarrhoea
and fevers, in addition to symptoms listed above. If HT falls below 4,
teeth and nails begin to fall out.

CV :- Cerebral syndrome - 2 IQ and hits are lost within an hour
of exposure. Roll vs. HT to maintain consciousness (and prevent
loss of 1 HT on a critical success) every hour. With exposures
above 8000 rem, HT loss is irreversible. Consciousness checks
are made every hour at -2. Once consciousness is lost or HT falls
to zero, fitting ensues, then death.

* Long-term effects (months to years post exposure) :-
i. Cataracts - the threshold for development of lens opacities is a
dose of 200 rads. Make a HT check every six months, with a -1 for
every additional 100 rads of either acute or chronic exposure. On a
fail, the damage is spotted before it interferes with vision ; on a
critical fail, Blindness ensues.

ii. Dermatitis - cumulative exposures to the skin alone can cause
chronic skin changes. True radiation dermatitis is only seen at
exposure levels that would be lethal if they were whole
body doses (e.g. radiotherapy for some cancers). The skin effects
seen at the dose levels above are often permanent with chronic
exposures. In game terms, apply the Slow Healing or Reduced Hit
Points disadvantages to the relevant body area(s).

iii. Carcinogenesis - the probability of developing tumours varies
with the dose and the tissues affected ; the precise mechanisms of
initiation remain unclear as of 2001.
For example, the incidence of leukaemia peaks at 5-6 years post
exposure. Other malignancies have latencies of 15 to 60 years.

The probability of finding a clinically apparent malignancy
in any given year roughly increases with age. As a rule of thumb,
every 100 rads of radiation exposure increases the lifetime risk
by 1 percent.

Age   Probability  Very approximate dice rolls
< 15  1/3,000      30 on 5d6
< 35  1/750        24 on 4d6
< 54  1/125        22 or better on 4d6
< 75  1/30         12 on 2d6
> 75  1/60         17 or better on 3d6
(based on US cancer figures for 1980, both sexes)

For game purposes, a critical failure (18) on a HT roll means
that a malignancy has been detected. A -1 modifier applies for
every 200 rads of radiation exposure. Check once a year.

iv. Damage to Fertility
Reproductive cells are sensitive to radiation.
Dose (rads)    Effect
150            Sterility for 1-6 weeks
250            Sterility for 1-2 years
500            Permanent sterility in 75%
800            Permanent sterility in 100%



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 20:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Apr 13 19:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] landgrab questions
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEDOGHAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I've claimed Biter and was working on by landgrab and I have a few questions

What is the fleet number for the Imperial Sword World subsector fleet?
Where is it headquartered?
What is Lunion's fleet number?
Does it help out imperial forces in the Sword Worlds?



________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr 13 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of malfunction?
Message-ID: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>

Authenticity Disclaimer:  This information has not been verified by me or
anyone that I personally trust.  I do not know if the facts cited are true.

I await comment from the learned members of this group.

<Begin snip>

OFFICER SAFETY WARNING

Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) Unit Causes
Malfunction of Officer's Issue Firearm

In July 2001, an officer from the Manheim Township (Lancaster County,
Pennsylvania) Police Department had an incident where his issue firearm
malfunctioned. The Smith & Wesson, Model 4013, .40 S&W caliber,
semi-automatic pistol was found to have a magnetized firing pin, which stuck
to the side of the channel within the slide. Upon inspection, it was
determined that the entire pistol had become so magnetized that paper clips
actually stuck to any metal surface. The department armorer was able to
demagnetize the firearm with the use of a high-power, videotape-erasing unit
after complete disassembly.

When the malfunction was discovered, the officer had no idea of when or how
his pistol had become magnetized. A review of the officer's activities,
revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical office
that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During the
investigation, the officer had walked into the MRI suite that magnetized the
pistol. MRI medical personnel have detailed instructions on safety, which
include keeping metal objects away from the unit. Upon further inspection,
two additional officer's firearms were also found to have been magnetized.

RECOMMENDATION

ALL ISSUE FIREARMS SHOULD BE CHECKED FOR THIS CONDITION

Police department and medical facility security administrative personnel
should notify officers of the following:

Investigations within medical facilities could magnetize an issue firearm
rendering it inoperable.

The test to determine if a firearm has become magnetized is to place a paper
clip next to the firearm.

If the paper clip sticks to the firearm, a supervisor should be notified
immediately.

A trained department-designated officer should verify the firearm is
magnetized and the firearm should be demagnetized with the use of a
high-powered videotape-erasing unit after it has been completely
disassembled.

The firearm should be test fired prior to being returned to service.

The fact that there is no outward sign that a firearm may not function as a
result of MRI/magnetic exposure makes this problem difficult to detect.
Awareness of this situation may prevent serious or deadly consequences.

Source: Sing, Lieutenant Douglas K. Manheim Township (Lancaster County,
Pennsylvania) Police Department Revised March 2002.

<end snip>

from website

http://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/officersafetyMRI.htm

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DDB8E2.3A16C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413200302.009ee460@mindspring.com>

At 10:28 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>on 4/13/02 10:13 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > Tod Glenn wrote:
> >
> > P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61
>
>Can you try again?  I changed some code and it seems to be fixed.

Works now, nice little utility.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:08:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:08:21 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of
 malfunction?
In-Reply-To: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413200431.009efbd0@mindspring.com>

At 09:30 PM 4/13/02 -0500, you wrote:
>When the malfunction was discovered, the officer had no idea of when or how
>his pistol had become magnetized. A review of the officer's activities,
>revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical office
>that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During the
>investigation, the officer had walked into the MRI suite that magnetized the
>pistol. MRI medical personnel have detailed instructions on safety, which
>include keeping metal objects away from the unit. Upon further inspection,
>two additional officer's firearms were also found to have been magnetized.

Considering the officer had to walk past large signs warning that a BIG 
freaking magnet was in use, I think the department should charge him for 
the repairs.

I accidentally left my steel wedding ring on during my last MRI.  The damn 
thing vibrated to the point it actually became warm.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Terran/Vilani conflict (Was: Deadliness of combat)
In-Reply-To: <20020411004002.DF53927A7B@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140512410.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>     We've got the constant drum beat in canon about the Vilani "way of war"
>being brutally pragmatic.  They use hostages, have no qualms about nukes,
>target civilians, etc., etc., anything tactic that is cost effective.

What constant drum? We have _one_ reference that details Vilani war
practices, and that reference is of rather late vintage (MT) and is part
of the Forbidden Canon. If you find yourself unable to reconcile that with
the historical events of the Traveller Universe, then I'd suggest that its
the description of Vilani war practices that requires amendment.

>     The Ziru Sirka, or it's direct antecedents, were able to put the Vilani
>boot on the neck of quite a number of species and they've kept it there for
>millennia.  The fact that the Geonee, Suerrat, Syleans, et. al. are still
>being kept down at the same time the Terrans show up tells me that the
>Vilani could still get the job done.

It tells me that they didn't exterminate minor races wantonly, claims
about their ruthlessness to the contrary notwithstanding. So maybe they
weren't quite so ruthless as they are painted in _Cogs&Dogs_.

>     "The Vilani might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really
>capable of, or were under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder."
>
>     After losing the first two Interstellar Wars and visiting the Sol
>system, the Vilani should have known what the Terrans were really capable
>of.  GT:RoF also mentions that the Vilani, when faced with the bewildering
>welter of Terran cultures and genotypes, thought they were facing an
>alliance of several minor human races.  That "threat" alone should have
>spurred some sort of response.

Like a search for the other homeworlds of the alliance? I certainly can't
blame the poor Vilani governor for wanting to locate the other homeworlds
before destroying the only one he knew of. For all he knew Terra was just
the catspaw and the other races of the alliance the real threat...

>     It's the dichotomy that get's me wondering.  We've got ZS governors
>still keeping the boot on the neck of umpteen minor races, we've got the
>coreward governors arming and using Vargr mercs in political power games
>against each other, and, at the same time, we've got governor after governor
>after on the Rim behaving completely unlike the others throughout the ZS and
>losing piddling wars to a minor race nearly totally confined to a single
>system.

The Terrans made a huge effort early in the game to disperse to other
worlds precisely because they feared that Terra would be destroyed. By the
time the Vilani realized that they had a real fight on their hands, the
Terrans were no longer confined to a single system. And don't forget the
other members of that alliance of minor races...

>     "Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion sentients would do?"
>
>     But they'd done it in the past, i.e. the Sky Raiders, and were
>currently threatening to do it to others, the many minor races being held
>down, so why didn't it happen to Sol?  The Ziru Sirka had the numbers, it
>had better technology, and it was chillingly ruthless.  How did it happen to
>lose?

Well, my take is that they didn't have the numbers. If the Vilani (as I
believe) considered 50 to 500 million an ideal size for a planetary
population and deliberately kept their major worlds fstable at those
levels, Terra could actually have outnumbered all the vilani worlds in
[Vilani name for Sol Sector] Sector.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
References: <20020413111905.52B7127AF6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004701c1e367$1bb70380$705e8690@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> But if you went to last week somewhere *else*, you'd have some
> freedom, because you wouldn't *know* what the past was *there*.
>
> Check out Dr. Robert Forward's novel Timemaster for a wormhole based
> FTL drive that allows time travel and complies with this sort of
> restrictions.

A week or two back I started working on an idea for a solo game.  It's since
developed into a world design system for a non-OTU game.  I'm using a
wormhole based FTL, as it allows you to use network/area mapping, and not
bother with "uninteresting" systems.

I'm going for a very abstract system, so fudges like this aren't a problem.

(Memo to self: does "FTL radio" exist?)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Deadliness of combat
In-Reply-To: <20020412005321.E214327A98@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>    All of Holland worked for their resistance, the Germans had a devil of
>time finding collaborators there.  The Danes, from the King on down, wore
>the yellow Star of David and helped their Jews escape to Sweden.

Actually, the story goes that King Christian threatened to wear the yellow
Star of David if it was forced on Danish Jews. I'm not sure how much truth
there is in that story. Denmark's situation during the early years of
occupation was anomalous. The Germans pretended that they were in Denmark
merely to protect us against attack by the Allies and that we were their
ally. Consequently they were hampered in just what they could 'request'
the Danish government to do. For instance, Danish Jews were never required
to wear the Star of David.

Indeed, I've been told that the Allies might have treated Denmark as a
true ally of Germany if it hadn't been for three things: Free Danish
sailors volunteering in droves to serve on English ships, the rescue of
the Jews, and the efforts of the Danish Resistance.

>ObTrav - So, from the Vilani point of view, who were the "French" to the
>Terran's "Nazis" during the Interstellar Wars?  The Vegans?  Some other
>human minor race?

Well, I imagine the Dingiransmust have become pretty thoroughly 'Terranized'
over the years for them to be made the new capital.



Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:10:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:10:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120438.DWL01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DE4F27.3A29F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 9:38 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>> 
>> What are you looking for characterwise?
>> 
> More Intel characters, especially a computer expert.
> 

No way, John.  That's too much like real life (I'm an IT professional).  The
computer expert does *not* wish to play a computer expert.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204140417.EAC00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson writes:
>What, you have something against Motorola employees? <g>
>
No, just AMD.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Deadliness of combat
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>; from rancke@diku.dk on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200
References: <20020412005321.E214327A98@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020413222116.A28871@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> Denmark's situation during the early years of occupation was
> anomalous.  The Germans pretended that they were in Denmark merely
> to protect us against attack by the Allies and that we were their
> ally.  Consequently they were hampered in just what they could
> 'request' the Danish government to do.

ISTR that at one point the King of Denmark was arrested.  It took
quite a bit of German military might to defeat retainers armed with
quarter-staffs, pole-arms and swords.  Or is that another king I'm
thinking of--or purely an urban legend?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To believe in gun control, one has to believe that guns are not an
effective means of self-defense, which is why police carry them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204140424.EAD00152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
<snip the hazards near his home>

Not too far from here is the Calvert Cliffs nuclear plant.  
A "very" short distance from there is a docking platform for 
LNG (liquified natural gas) tankers.  The dock and pipeline 
is not in use at the moment, but they are talking about 
reactivating it.

I remember reading about "sublimation" accidents.  They say 
that an ocean-going LNG tanker holds the equivalent of tens 
of kilotons of explosive power.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204140424.EAD00152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DE54E0.3A2B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 9:24 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Not too far from here is the Calvert Cliffs nuclear plant.
> A "very" short distance from there is a docking platform for
> LNG (liquified natural gas) tankers.  The dock and pipeline
> is not in use at the moment, but they are talking about
> reactivating it.
> 
> I remember reading about "sublimation" accidents.  They say
> that an ocean-going LNG tanker holds the equivalent of tens
> of kilotons of explosive power.

All you need is a big ship of fertilizer.  Remember Texas City?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204140452.EAD01433@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod says
<snip Texas City>

The problem with an LNG tanker is that anyone with a .50 BMG 
rifle within 1 km can put a hole in one of the tanks.  It 
doesn't have to be a HE or HEI round.  But once that leak 
pops, there's a runaway sublimation effect that blows the 
tank open and then the whole ship goes.

There were some concerns voiced about the effect that ships 
like this might have in a confined waterway.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 23:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat Apr 13 22:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEBPCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <000301c1e373$27a9fb00$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Robert O'Connor
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 18:47
To: TML, New
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules

John Kwon wrote :-
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone
> can help out and pony up their house rules).

Modified GURPS radiation rules follow (exposure levels OK, biological
effects off a bit in G:Comp 2).
Contact me off-list for d20 and MT versions (the latter may still
be available on the Freelance Traveller site).


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

------------------------------

Damn that was a good post Robert!  Kudos.  This one gets the CDR
treatment.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 23:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 13 22:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] JTAS question
Message-ID: <20020414.013949.-343735.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

Can someone summarize for me what is covered the article "A Traveller
Bibliography" in JTAS #8?



                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 00:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Apr 13 23:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Deadliness of combat
In-Reply-To: <20020413222116.A28871@4dv.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>; from rancke@diku.dk on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200
Message-ID: <3CB9C6FE.12042.25C89E@localhost>

On 13 Apr 2002, at 22:21, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> > Denmark's situation during the early years of occupation was
> > anomalous.  The Germans pretended that they were in Denmark merely
> > to protect us against attack by the Allies and that we were their
> > ally.  Consequently they were hampered in just what they could
> > 'request' the Danish government to do.

> ISTR that at one point the King of Denmark was arrested.  It took
> quite a bit of German military might to defeat retainers armed with
> quarter-staffs, pole-arms and swords.  Or is that another king I'm
> thinking of--or purely an urban legend?

I believe that what happened is that the Germans arrived just as the 
Royal Guard was conducting a full dress parade, so the Guards 
formed a double line and commenced disciplined volley fire (it must 
have looked like something straight out of the Napoleonic wars, 
only with bolt action rifles). This took the Germans somewhat by 
surprise and several were killed, but once they recovered from the 
initial shock, they started bringing up heavy weapons at which 
point the King ran out and ordered that the Guards surrender.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 00:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 23:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204140452.EAD01433@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DE7400.3A2DE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 9:52 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> The problem with an LNG tanker is that anyone with a .50 BMG
> rifle within 1 km can put a hole in one of the tanks.  It
> doesn't have to be a HE or HEI round.  But once that leak
> pops, there's a runaway sublimation effect that blows the
> tank open and then the whole ship goes.

Sublimation?  It is LNG right?  You have to have a solid transform directly
to a gas for it to be sublimation.

Carbon Dioxide ice sublimates.

Tod
(former Chemist) 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 01:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 00:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <F264Wf26myeOi1EkcZy0001ef51@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.233341.4R2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>      "Except Traveller fusion plants don't use the D-T reaction. They would 
> appear to use some form of p-p reaction."
>
>
> Mr. Erickson,
>
>      I know you've posted information on the p-p reaction many times before, 
> but could you do so again please?  I'd like to see what sort of particles 
> we'd be dealing with using that specific reaction.

The *overall* reaction is

4 H1 -> 1 He4

I don't recall the ways that (for example) the Bethe "solar phoenix"
reaction (which involves carbon as a catalyst) works. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 01:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 00:12:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <004701c1e367$1bb70380$705e8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20413.235758.2j2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: Leonard Erickson
>> But if you went to last week somewhere *else*, you'd have some
>> freedom, because you wouldn't *know* what the past was *there*.
>>
>> Check out Dr. Robert Forward's novel Timemaster for a wormhole based
>> FTL drive that allows time travel and complies with this sort of
>> restrictions.
>
> A week or two back I started working on an idea for a solo game.  It's since
> developed into a world design system for a non-OTU game.  I'm using a
> wormhole based FTL, as it allows you to use network/area mapping, and not
> bother with "uninteresting" systems.
>
> I'm going for a very abstract system, so fudges like this aren't a problem.
>
> (Memo to self: does "FTL radio" exist?)

Since Forward's book was published, further work was done on wormholes
and time travel.

It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
builds until it collapses the wormholes. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 03:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Apr 14 02:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of malfunction?
In-Reply-To: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020414114830.26705bd4.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical
office
> that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During
the
> investigation, the officer had walked into the MRI suite that magnetized
the
> pistol.

How would this kind of problem affect gauss/railgun type weapons?

Not that any PCs would try bringing any of them through security, mind
you...

 ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 06:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 05:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204141224.EAT00139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 06:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 05:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <200204141227.EAT00280@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

(Leonard Erickson)  says
>
>I don't recall the ways that (for example) the Bethe "solar 
>phoenix" reaction (which involves carbon as a catalyst) 
>works. 
>

I thought that the CNO cycle was a relatively "slow" rate 
reaction, even if it had a lower threshold to get started.

Also, isn't the p-p reaction the intended reaction for the 
Bussard ramjet?  I keep hearing that the p-p reaction is more 
difficult to start thant the D-T reaction.  And if we're 
going to make it so difficult, why not just use He-3?
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any
> upper limit
> ("that's no moon...")

Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
gravity well, and you misjump.

Net result : you can have a J6 planet. But no one can tell where its going.
Let's call it Heisenberg.

Regards

Andy Brick

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

ObTrav: Refueling in an oxygen atmosphere, of course.  

A liquified natural gas tanker poses a fire and explosion 
hazard.  Also, even though it is cryogenically cooled, a 
certain percentage of the tankage boils off every day.

I keep hearing people say that the fuel is carried in the 
form of liquid water and converted at the last minute.  This 
would seem to be inefficient, as a substantial portion of 
your tankage would not be usable fuel.  Liquid methane 
(liquified natural gas) might be a bit better than water, and 
probably what "unrefined" fuel from a gas giant would be.  
However, a significant proportion of the fuel would still not 
be hydrogen, unless the ship was using the CNO cycle.  
However, you don't need to keep putting carbon in the cycle, 
as it is reused.

Also, I have read several times in old Traveller works about 
the "L-Hyd" tank (which seems to say "liquid hydrogen" and 
not "water").  The description in the AHL supplement 
distinctly refers to the tankage on the Fuel Deck as "L-Hyd".

But I digress.  For optimum top-off, I think that refuelling 
would take place just prior to takeoff, in the same manner 
that they refuel the shuttle a few hours before takeoff. 

There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were 
topping off with LNG or L-Hyd.  If you were in atmosphere and 
someone scored a Fuel hit with a laser weapon, I'm betting 
that the ship's fuel tanks would explode.  What would have 
been a minor hit in space would be disastrous in atmosphere.  
See what happened to the fuel tank on the shuttle when the 
SRB played a flame on it.  One fuel hit in atmosphere and 
WHAM.

Also, I'm wondering what happens if the fuel tanks adjoin 
crew spaces, as they do in so many deck plans.  Let's say you 
depressurize before combat, and close bulkhead doors.  One 
compartment or more could be filled with fuel if the ship is 
hit in certain ways.  Equipment and personnel in these areas 
would be instantly destroyed/killed by cryogenic liquid.  

I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot 
of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and 
ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how 
it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only 
lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure - 
the fuel is subdivided into several large tanks, perhaps more 
on large combat vessels - but not on a small ship, which 
might have at most two separate tanks.  It would be hard to 
effectively pump fuel from a holed tank, if it was able to 
retain fuel at all after the hit.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>; from andy@exeus.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 01:59:26PM +0100
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 01:59:26PM +0100, Andy Brick wrote:
> 
> Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> gravity well, and you misjump.

Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
Betelgeuse.  So are you.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Mit den Frauen ist das wie mit den Firewalls: was [...] am meisten
Sicherheit garantiert und am wenigsten Probleme macht, ist immer das,
was zum speziellen Fall am besten passt.
                        --Urs Traenkner in de.comp.security.firewall

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An interesting product - anything like this in Traveller?
Message-ID: <200204141322.EAV00067@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

In any ship or vehicle design sequence, is there anything 
like this?  It seems to be an internal add-on that reduces 
the potential for internal explosions.

http://www.blastgard.net/outlook.asp

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:24:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:24:06 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
References: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c1e3b7$e7bc9260$52200050@matt>

> I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot
> of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and
> ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how
> it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only
> lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure -
> the fuel is subdivided into several large tanks, perhaps more
> on large combat vessels - but not on a small ship, which
> might have at most two separate tanks.  It would be hard to
> effectively pump fuel from a holed tank, if it was able to
> retain fuel at all after the hit.

How about self sealing linings around the tanks... the fuel loss is that
lost before the hole gets sealed...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting 
>a pull on Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>

Which made me dislike the "100 D" limit.  If I am at the 100 
D limit for Earth (at earth's distance from Sol, which has 
its own gravitational pull), what is the value of G?

Now let's compare that to the same value at 100 D from 
Jupiter.  I would bet that it's different.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <200204141331.EAV00387@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Matthew Bond" says
>
>How about self sealing linings around the tanks... the fuel 
>loss is that lost before the hole gets sealed...
>

On a cryogenic tank, no less.  Must be some of that 
Unobtanium lining the fuel tanks.

I think also, that we're probably talking about a fairly 
large spot size for ship laser weapons.  If they are anything 
like the planned SBL, the spot size will be around 1 foot.  
The hole in the fuel tank is likely to be larger, since the 
spot will move some.  And explosive missiles (if forged 
fragments, HEAT jets, or kinetic impactors) are going to make 
holes more than a few inches in diameter (or larger).  Self-
sealing only seems to work on modern aircraft fuel tanks for 
small non-explosive projectiles.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <F209IlOAPE3EzbwJp8k00003548@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBA2ECF.32620.8436A0@localhost>

On 13 Apr 2002 at 5:09, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      GURPS Compedium II has servicable rad rules.  IIRC, there are some MT 
> rules in a DGP Digest issue that deal with exposure rather exhaustively.

They're a bit messed up on what types of critters are most sensitive to 
radiation though, IIRC. Those rules have it that birds are something 
like 5 times _less_ sensitive to radiation than mammales, when AFAIK 
they're rather _more_ sensitive to radiation in RL.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEBPCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <3CBA30BC.19744.8BBA6A@localhost>

On 14 Apr 2002 at 11:47, Robert O'Connor wrote:

> iv. Damage to Fertility
> Reproductive cells are sensitive to radiation.
> Dose (rads)    Effect
> 150            Sterility for 1-6 weeks
> 250            Sterility for 1-2 years
> 500            Permanent sterility in 75%
> 800            Permanent sterility in 100%

Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
men, if you prefer)?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 08:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hullo

> > Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> > simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> > gravity well, and you misjump.
>
> Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
> Betelgeuse.  So are you.

But, unlike the Earth, the gravitational pull exerted by a human is not
sufficient to cause a misjump, which was my point.

I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.

A rough back of envelope calculation would be that the acceleration due to
gravity at 100 diameters is 2.43e-04 ms^-2. Given a body with the same
density as the Earth, then we're looking at 5.56g per cubic centimetre, or
5560 kg per cubic metre. This gives us a solid, uniform sphere 156 metres in
radius and with a mass of 8.841e10 kg, or a displacement tonnage of about
1,178,000 dTons. Hollow the sphere out and it would change things, but I'd
say that as a rough rule of thumb, a vessel with equivalent g at its surface
is never likely to reach its destination ...

Andy Brick


---
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 09:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr 14 08:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net>

Any update on T20?

Does anyone know when we are likely to see the 'offending' article ?

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 09:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Apr 14 08:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
 <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020414155356.08d6b44c.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Andy Brick wrote:
> Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> gravity well, and you misjump.
> 
> Net result : you can have a J6 planet. But no one can tell where its
going.
> Let's call it Heisenberg.

But all ships generate their own gravity wells...

Not of that magnitude, but still.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 10:35:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Apr 14 09:35:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Contact for Alvin Plummer?
Message-ID: <qibjbu0n0ieulkqta2ce6cslh5a727u1lf@4ax.com>

One of his articles on Freelance Traveller was slightly corrupted (on my
original, dammit!), and I need to talk to him to get the information needed
to uncorrupt it.  Can anyone pass me his address (off-list, please), or ask
him to contact me?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 10:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Apr 14 09:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <robjbu0fqnq6n9dnqt5e35f7a8qulahh5m@4ax.com>

On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 15:12:04 +0100, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
wrote:

>Hullo
>
>> > Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own =
gravity
>> > simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating =
inside a
>> > gravity well, and you misjump.
>>
>> Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
>> Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>
>But, unlike the Earth, the gravitational pull exerted by a human is not
>sufficient to cause a misjump, which was my point.
>
>I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
>Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.
>
>A rough back of envelope calculation would be that the acceleration due =
to
>gravity at 100 diameters is 2.43e-04 ms^-2. Given a body with the same
>density as the Earth, then we're looking at 5.56g per cubic centimetre, =
or
>5560 kg per cubic metre. This gives us a solid, uniform sphere 156 =
metres in
>radius and with a mass of 8.841e10 kg, or a displacement tonnage of =
about
>1,178,000 dTons. Hollow the sphere out and it would change things, but =
I'd
>say that as a rough rule of thumb, a vessel with equivalent g at its =
surface
>is never likely to reach its destination ...

Not that I'm up on the necessary math, but I would be interested in
the tidal force counterpart of these calculations.  I was very
impressed by the correspondence that was found between the tidal force
at 100 diameters and the effects which are described in Traveller.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 10:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sun Apr 14 09:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
In-Reply-To: <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEHLDKAA.tml@downport.com>

visit www.TravellerRPG.com for official T20 info... as to the offending
article, were you speaking of yourself or was it some sort of slight aimed
at a certain segment of Traveller players? :p

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Si

Any update on T20?

Does anyone know when we are likely to see the 'offending' article ?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Apr 14 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <F123KlnZcjKJXHC1gsW0000fa6c@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
men, if you prefer)?"


Mr. Boleyn,

     You are correct, sir.  Women never produce new eggs, they carry their 
lifetime supply with them at all times.  Men on the other hand continually 
produce new reproductive materials and must get rid of the older stuff to 
make room for the new.  That in itself explains quite a bit about male 
behavior.
     So, a female may be caring damaged genetic material if she had been 
exposed at ANY TIME during her life.  Males, due to their constant 
production of genetic material, only run the risk of donating damaged 
material if the exposure has been in the recent past.
     GURPS, in Compendium II, handles this in the following manner.  If a 
female has a lifetime dose of 250 rads, her offspring, and any problems they 
may have, are entirely at the GM's discretion.  If a male has recieved a 
dose of 100 rads within the last week, the same rule applies.
     A lfietime dose can be thought of as a running total of exposure that 
NEVER heals, it never goes away.  A female PC that recieved 25 seperate ten 
rad doses over several years of game time may have easily survived the 
effects of each of those exposures.  The burns, blood problems, and whatnot 
may be long behind her, but her lifetime dose is now 250 rads and any of her 
offspring are at the GM's mercy.
     Realistic?  Yes.  "Fair"?  No, but then again life is never fair.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 12:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Apr 14 11:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] landgrab questions
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEDOGHAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3CB9CF31.40F7C89F@mindspring.com>

John-Martin wrote:


> I've claimed Biter and was working on by landgrab and I have a few questions
>
> What is the fleet number for the Imperial Sword World subsector fleet?

Flipping open the rebellion source book we find........There is none. The
nearest is Lunion 43, or Vilis 193. Oddly I see Fleet 208 is assigned to all the
way over in Five sisters. But none in the Sword Worlds.

>
> Where is it headquartered?

See above

>
> What is Lunion's fleet number?

See above

>
> Does it help out imperial forces in the Sword Worlds?

We have no forces in the Sword Worlds. Those are just nasty rumors and Sword
Worlder propaganda. Please, have another drink and a narco stick. Enjoy the
music.



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 12:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Apr 14 11:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Terran/Vilani conflict (Was: Deadliness of combat)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140512410.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3CB9CF94.4CB5EF74@mindspring.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

Forbidden Canon.
???!




--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 14:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 13:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <200204142037.NAA19289@molly.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Also, I have read several times in old Traveller works about 
>the "L-Hyd" tank (which seems to say "liquid hydrogen" and 
>not "water").  The description in the AHL supplement 
>distinctly refers to the tankage on the Fuel Deck as "L-Hyd".

Canon is clearly liquid hydrogen.
>
>There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were 
>topping off with LNG or L-Hyd.  If you were in atmosphere and 
>someone scored a Fuel hit with a laser weapon, I'm betting 
>that the ship's fuel tanks would explode.

Nope, no oxygen.  The fuel leak will almost certainly ignite, however.
>been a minor hit in space would be disastrous in atmosphere.  
>See what happened to the fuel tank on the shuttle when the 
>SRB played a flame on it.  One fuel hit in atmosphere and 
>WHAM.

That's because of having both liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen, which
makes for a very nice bomb.

>Also, I'm wondering what happens if the fuel tanks adjoin 
>crew spaces, as they do in so many deck plans.  Let's say you 
>depressurize before combat, and close bulkhead doors.  One 
>compartment or more could be filled with fuel if the ship is 
>hit in certain ways.  Equipment and personnel in these areas 
>would be instantly destroyed/killed by cryogenic liquid.  

Fuel tanks are probably double-walled.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 14:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 14 13:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 09:26:52AM -0400
References: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020414144128.A5149@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 09:26:52AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> Which made me dislike the "100 D" limit.  If I am at the 100 
> D limit for Earth (at earth's distance from Sol, which has 
> its own gravitational pull), what is the value of G?
> 
> Now let's compare that to the same value at 100 D from 
> Jupiter.  I would bet that it's different.

I'd assume that the 100D limit must have nothing to do with gravity,
but instead have to do, somehow, with the actual physical size of an
object.  Perhaps physical objects imprint themselves in jump space,
but do to its properties they imprint a far larger area.  Or
something:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`When you wake up in the morning, Pooh,' said Piglet at last,
`what's the first thing you say to yourself?'
`What's for breakfast?' said Pooh. `What do you say, Piglet?'
`I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?' said Piglet.
Pooh nodded thoughtfully. `It's the same thing,' he said.
                                            --A.A. Milne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 14:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 14 13:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>; from andy@exeus.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 03:12:04PM +0100
References: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020414144249.B5149@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 03:12:04PM +0100, Andy Brick wrote:
> 
> I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
> Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.

I believe the rule is any object larger than 1/2 mile will trigger
jump precipation.  So someone needs to calculate the gravity of, say,
a 1/2 mile wide rocky body.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
It's better to have a weapon and not need it than to need a weapon and
not have it.                                     --Sir Clarence Worley

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-lethal weapons in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <B8B628F4.2D246%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20414.132135.5B6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 3/14/02 9:42 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>> The speed of sound is around 1200 m/s. That means that a 10 Hz sound
>> wave has a wavelngth of 120 meters. A quarter wavelength "antenna" is
>> going to be 30 meters.
>
> Oops.  I think you meant 330 m/s.  I wish it were 1200m/s.  It would make
> silencing rifles a lot easier.

Ok, I seem to have screwed up a step in converting from the figure I
could recall (mph) to the one I wanted (m/s).

> And does sound really propagate like radio waves?  It's really just SIT
> between air molecules.

It's a wave phenomenon. It has wavelength and the wavelength affects
how it propogates. Wavelengtyh, frequency and speed of propogation have
a *fixed* relationship.

I think it's 

L * f = v

L = wavelength
f = frequency
v = propogation velocity

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:02:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:02:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204141224.EAT00139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20414.133137.4r5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Care to resend this in *text* instead of base64 encoding?

In mail John T. Kwon writes:

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> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:02:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:02:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <200204141227.EAT00280@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20414.133330.3v1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> (Leonard Erickson)  says
>>
>>I don't recall the ways that (for example) the Bethe "solar 
>>phoenix" reaction (which involves carbon as a catalyst) 
>>works. 
>>
>
> I thought that the CNO cycle was a relatively "slow" rate 
> reaction, even if it had a lower threshold to get started.

In stars it takes a long time. In a fusion reactor that can run at
higher temps and pressures, who knows?

> Also, isn't the p-p reaction the intended reaction for the 
> Bussard ramjet?  I keep hearing that the p-p reaction is more 
> difficult to start thant the D-T reaction.  And if we're 
> going to make it so difficult, why not just use He-3?

p-p requires higher temperatures and pressures. But the fuel is so much
more abundant that if you can do it, it'd be *vastly* preferred.

Not only is helium-3 hard to accumulate, it's harder to store. Liquid
helium temps are something like two orders of magnitude harder to
maintain than liquid hydrogen temps (temperature differences are
logarithmic, not arithmetic. That is, what matters isn't the difference
in degrees, but rather the *ratio* of the abosolute temperatures. So
the difference between 4 K and 20 K is the "same" as the difference
between 300 K (room temp) and 1500 K (halfway between the melting
point of copper and that of iron))

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:03:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:03:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20414.134105.6N5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Robert A. Uhl" says
>>
>>Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting 
>>a pull on Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>
> Which made me dislike the "100 D" limit.  If I am at the 100 
> D limit for Earth (at earth's distance from Sol, which has 
> its own gravitational pull), what is the value of G?
>
> Now let's compare that to the same value at 100 D from 
> Jupiter.  I would bet that it's different.

At 100 diameters from a "rocky" type planet, the *tidal forces* will be
the same. That is, the rate of change of the strength of the gravity
field will match.

It's easy to show that any force that is the same at a given number of
*diameters* from a sphere of a given density has to be one that various
as the inverse *cube* of the distance. Which tidal forces do.

The tidal forces can also be thought of as representing how sharply
"curved" the space in that area is, which fits nicely with the jump
drive. If it is trying to "bend" space, then it's "obvious" that it'll
be more reliable if it isn't fighting the bends that already exist.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:03:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:03:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20414.134634.3h0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any
>> upper limit
>> ("that's no moon...")
>
> Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> gravity well, and you misjump.

*Everything* generates its own gravity field. 

So ships have to correct for self gravity (and possibily for their
internal gravity fields as well) anyway. A planet-ship would just have
to make bigger corrections.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:04:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hullo
>
>> > Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
>> > simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
>> > gravity well, and you misjump.
>>
>> Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
>> Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>
> But, unlike the Earth, the gravitational pull exerted by a human is not
> sufficient to cause a misjump, which was my point.
>
> I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
> Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.

Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
todal forces are the same.

Inverse *cube* law.

> A rough back of envelope calculation would be that the acceleration due to
> gravity at 100 diameters is 2.43e-04 ms^-2.

And the tidal forces are 

a/l = G*M /r^3

a = acceleration
l = distance for center of object experiencing tidal forces
G = Newton's gravitational constant
M = mass of object exerting tidal forces
r = distance from center of object exerting tidal forces.

I suspect that you'll find that the forces involved at 100 diameters
from Earth are similar to those at the hull of a fairly small ship.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:04:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:04:37 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <003a01c1e3b7$e7bc9260$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20414.135536.3A4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot
>> of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and
>> ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how
>> it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only
>> lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure -
>> the fuel is subdivided into several large tanks, perhaps more
>> on large combat vessels - but not on a small ship, which
>> might have at most two separate tanks.  It would be hard to
>> effectively pump fuel from a holed tank, if it was able to
>> retain fuel at all after the hit.
>
> How about self sealing linings around the tanks... the fuel loss is that
> lost before the hole gets sealed...

And *how* are they going to self-seal? Liquid hydrogen is at 20 Kelvin.
(20 centrigrade degress above absolute zero, around -424 F)

*Any* lining is going to be frozen solid at that temp. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <20414.133330.3v1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020414213134.EB02127A53@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/14/02 at 01:33 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
said:

>> Also, isn't the p-p reaction the intended reaction for the 
>> Bussard ramjet?  I keep hearing that the p-p reaction is more 
>> difficult to start thant the D-T reaction.  And if we're 
>> going to make it so difficult, why not just use He-3?

>p-p requires higher temperatures and pressures. But the fuel is so
>much more abundant that if you can do it, it'd be *vastly* preferred.

>Not only is helium-3 hard to accumulate, it's harder to store. Liquid
>helium temps are something like two orders of magnitude harder to
>maintain than liquid hydrogen temps (temperature differences are
>logarithmic, not arithmetic. That is, what matters isn't the
>difference in degrees, but rather the *ratio* of the abosolute
>temperatures. So the difference between 4 K and 20 K is the "same" as
>the difference between 300 K (room temp) and 1500 K (halfway between
>the melting point of copper and that of iron))

My favorite, non-standard, fusion reaction is p-B(11). Boron-11 isn't
*all* that rare, and with the advanced plasma, magnetic and gravitic
controls of the TU it should be quite doable.  This reaction results
in almost no hard radiation, and electricity can be directly drawn off
the resultant charged particles.  

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help Needed
In-Reply-To: <B8B62CD4.2D26D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20414.140952.0s8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 3/14/02 9:16 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>>> get me one of those nifty adapter cards for that if I understand
>>> 'hot-swappable' correctly).
>> 
>> Mine isn't hot-swappable either.
>> 
>> Though I have to note that with IDE that's a tall order to start with.
>> With SCSI it's a bit easier.
>> 
>> The big problem is that the OS may not recognize the swap.
>
> If it's truly hot swappable, that means you are running some kind of RAID,
> too.  I remember seeing the shocked expression on the face of a brang new
> tech when I blithely yanked the drive out of out Resilient server. Just for
> yucks I pulled a processor too.  This while the machine was happily serving
> files, routing email and all that king of good stuff.

With some OSes you can swap a drive while the system is running, you
just have to do a "dismount" before pulling the drive and a "Mount"
after putting in a replacement.

When I finally get my Netware server upgraded I'll be doing that
occasionally with a tape drive or a scsi drive in a mobile rack.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:05:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:05:23 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020415080419.A22995@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I keep hearing people say that the fuel is carried in the form of
> liquid water and converted at the last minute.

I think you keep hearing just *me* :)


>  This would seem to be inefficient, as a substantial portion of your
> tankage would not be usable fuel.

Tankage *mass*, yes.  However, water has 50% more hydrogen per unit
*volume* than does liquid hydrogen.  As an additional bonus, it is
*much* easier to store.  As a further bonus again, you can drink it,
and breathe the "waste" after refining.

Since ship operating costs are directly proportional to volume (not
mass), this works out much more efficient.  However, it will reduce
acceleration on full tanks somewhat.


>  Liquid methane (liquified natural gas) might be a bit better than
> water,

Except that it is harder to store, more hazardous, no use in life
support, less plentiful, and the waste (carbon) is much less useful.
The same applies to ammonia.  It turns out that the best figure for
hydrogen per unit volume (for common substances) is a highly
concentrated ammonia solution.  The waste product from the refining
process is an oxygen / nitrogen mix.  However it's much worse from a
handling point of view, and you can't just suck it up from oceans or
ice moonlets.


> Also, I have read several times in old Traveller works about 
> the "L-Hyd" tank (which seems to say "liquid hydrogen" and 
> not "water").

It does.

In my ship designs, ships still have a LHyd tank, because the jump
drives need a *lot* of pure hydrogen really fast when entering jump;
far more than a fuel refiner can deliver in such a short period of
time.  Canon is unfortunately unclear as to *how much* fuel used by
jump is consumed right at the start, and the subject is a recurring
"hot topic" (look up "drop tanks" or "Annic Nova" in the archives for
a sample).  IMTU, initiating jump requires about 1-5% of the ship's
volume in jump fuel, the same again on re-entry, with the rest
consumed slowly during jump.  The last can be delivered by refiners
from water tanks, and provides the crew with breathing air and
drinking water.


> There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were topping
> off with LNG or L-Hyd.

No -- there's nothing for it to burn with if you're fuelling at an
up-port dock, and even many planets have insufficient oxygen to
support a flame.  There would be a cryogenic hazard though,
particularly with LHyd.


> See what happened to the fuel tank on the shuttle when the 
> SRB played a flame on it.  One fuel hit in atmosphere and 
> WHAM.

That's because the shuttle contains huge amounts of cryogenic
propellant *and* oxidiser, in a convenient ready-to-mix form.


> One compartment or more could be filled with fuel if the ship is hit
> in certain ways.  Equipment and personnel in these areas would be
> instantly destroyed/killed by cryogenic liquid.

Yep -- cryogenic liquids are dangerous.  And of course a *minor*
internal hydrogen leak could cause a fire once you reintroduce oxygen.


> I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot 
> of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and 
> ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how 
> it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only 
> lose a small percentage of the fuel.

That's what I assume.  You don't want a big open tank of liquid in the
ship when you're doing 6g maneuvers and rapid rotations, either --
even liquids as light as LHyd have a *lot* of mass in large volumes.
So IMTU fuel tankage is heavily compartmentalised even on small ships.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:05:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:05:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Terran/Vilani conflict (Was: Deadliness of combat)
In-Reply-To: <3CB9CF94.4CB5EF74@mindspring.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140512410.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020414145753.009e8ae0@mindspring.com>

At 02:51 PM 4/14/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>
>Forbidden Canon.
>???!

Stuff published by Digest Group.  I'm not getting into that mud patch 
again, but suffice it to say that the owner of the copyright wants a 
ridiculous amount of money for it, and as a result, those of us writing for 
Traveller have to avoid things that appeared solely in DGP books and magazines.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020415081233.B22995@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> And the tidal forces are 
> a/l = G*M /r^3

If we use T for tide and rho for density, then a spherical body
induces a tidal stretching of
 T = 2 G rho (r/R)^3.

This more clearly shows that for a body of given density, the tidal
strength depends only on the ratio of diameter to distance.


> I suspect that you'll find that the forces involved at 100 diameters
> from Earth are similar to those at the hull of a fairly small ship.

So the size of the ship is irrelevant -- what matters is its density.
Suffice it to say that every ship in Traveller has amply more than
enough density to give a higher tidal force at 1 diameter than Earth
does at 10 diameters, let alone 100D.

Apparently only ships larger than 1km will actually precipitate other
ships out from jump, but I suspect ships entering jump should indeed
use the normal misjump rules for proximity to any other body
comparable in size to their own.  (You don't want a speck of dust to
cause a misjump :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-lethal weapons in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1016132100.8505.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20414.163834.3i9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>> 
>> And my "sodium grenades" will tend to seal the edges of the plastic to
>> the helmet.
>
> If you can reliably spray enough sodium to cause a problem, you can also
> probably hit them with a comparable amount of high explosive and kill them
> outright.

In a vacuum, you don't have to "spray". The atoms essentially travel in
straight lines from the dispenser until they hit something. At which
point they stop. 

It doesn't take a very thick coating (a few atoms thick) to make it
hard to so, and hard for the cooling system on your space suit to get
rid of the heat you are building up.

In a vacuum, high eplosives are much less effective, because they don't
have air to conduct the shock. All they have to ork with is the gases
they produce themselves. And a blast strong enough to cause trouble is
strong enough to damage gear in the compartment. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:26:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:26:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
References: <20020414132903.D582627B44@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c1e414$9dbef1a0$bdb18b90@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
> closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
> travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
> builds until it collapses the wormholes.

No surprises there.  And of course, since the possibility to use them for
FTL implies the possibility of using them for time travel, you can't use
them for FTL, etc.

Fortunately, we are dealing with science fiction, not real life, so this
analysis is hereby declared to be incomplete.  This also explains why "FTL
radio" isn't possible.  Oh, and traversing wormholes takes about 170 hours
or so, too.  : )

Incidentally, Yaskoydray definitely could have time travel.  Creating pocket
universes implies being able to do really, really interesting things to
space-time.  In fact, it might be possible to travel from the MT/TNE
universe to the GT one.  IMTU, Avery did!  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
Message-ID: <200204150043.RAA22864@molly.iii.com>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:

>From: Leonard Erickson
>> It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
>> closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
>> travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
>> builds until it collapses the wormholes.
>
>No surprises there.  And of course, since the possibility to use them for
>FTL implies the possibility of using them for time travel, you can't use
>them for FTL, etc.

Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.

In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
wormholes have to share a reference frame.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEAIDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
> and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
> (assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
> todal forces are the same.

(Tries it in Excel - ) Neat trick - hadn't seen this before - though I
suspect it only works because I used a  uniform density, and since that
won't be the case in the "real" (read:more random/realistic simulation of
the) universe, then using tidal forces as a basis for misjumps will vary the
rule either side of 100 diameters - for example, raise the density, and the
100 diameter limit drops to ninety something diameters.

But it doesn't really matter what causes the misjump effect. The fact
remains that a given mass will cause some form of gravitational effect that
invokes a misjump, and when you build a starship of that mass it should be
affected by its own gravitational effect - and hence misjump.

The maths/details don't really matter here - the concept is the thing. There
should be an upper limit of some kind on starship size imposed by the
misjump rule.

Andy B.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.346 / Virus Database: 194 - Release Date: 10/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com>

"Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com> writes:

>But it doesn't really matter what causes the misjump effect. The fact
>remains that a given mass will cause some form of gravitational effect that
>invokes a misjump, and when you build a starship of that mass it should be
>affected by its own gravitational effect - and hence misjump.

Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external fields.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 18:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
> trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
> to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external fields.

Or, that misjumps are poorly thought out.

They don't work if you use g, the gravitational field acceleration because
it varies so much.
They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
themselves.

So, has anyone got a better explanation of why 100 diameters, 10 diameters
etc are so very bad ?

Andy B


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.346 / Virus Database: 194 - Release Date: 10/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 19:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 18:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020415114537.A23557@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Brick wrote:
> They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
> themselves.

Isn't that what the jump grid is for; making sure that everything
contained within it is properly prepared for jump?  I would not be at
all surprised if part of the function of the grid was to cancel the
gravity due to the mass of the ship.  Gravity from external objects
can't be cancelled because you don't have a grid surrounding them.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 19:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Apr 14 18:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEHDCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Ortillery?
>
>I saw it in Dirtside, a game to go with Full Thrust.
>
>But I may have seen it in an SF novel before.

I think it's in Hammer's Slammers, by David Drake -- but it may even have
appeared in Gordon Dickson's Dorsai books.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 20:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sun Apr 14 19:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of malfunction?
References: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com> <20020414114830.26705bd4.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <DAV40aODv8h1ccBHuGI0000737d@hotmail.com>

> How would this kind of problem affect gauss/railgun type weapons?

<shrug>  Some earlier gauss weapon discussion seemed to indicate that GWs
would have to be pretty heavily shielded.  So maybe nothing.


> Not that any PCs would try bringing any of them through security, mind
> you...

Good heavens, no! <g>

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Sun Apr 14 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020413200302.009ee460@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CBA3FFD.3090802@yarranet.net.au>

Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll 
never get my Tigress at this rate.


Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 20:55:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Apr 14 19:55:06 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEHDCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Also, I'm wondering what happens if the fuel tanks adjoin
>crew spaces, as they do in so many deck plans.  Let's say you
>depressurize before combat, and close bulkhead doors.  One
[deletion]
>I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot
>of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and
>ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how
>it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only
>lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure -

I usually design deck plans with a fuel envelope around the ship.  That
accounts for the large number of fuel hits in High Guard.  I assume that the
fuel tank is divided into ten compartments of equal volume, so that each
fuel hit blows a hole in one or more compartments.

If you get both internal explosion and fuel hit results, the problem you
describe may occur.  In a High Guard fleet action, I wouldn't worry about
it, but I will take your suggestion to heart in the case of combat involving
a ship with the PCs, or a ship that they encounter.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 21:13:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Apr 14 20:13:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134634.3h0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
 <20414.134634.3h0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020415031235.2864d227.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> *Everything* generates its own gravity field. 
> 
> So ships have to correct for self gravity (and possibily for their
> internal gravity fields as well) anyway. A planet-ship would just have
> to make bigger corrections.

Semi-scientifical handwave follows:

The jump grid acts in a manner similiar to an electrical potential cage
(kind of like grounding the ship to a known neutral potential). Thus, the
ship itself doesn't disturb the jump drive's operation. Other objects,
however, aren't grounded in this fashion, and do disturb it, causing
misjumps etc.

Think of the disturbance as a lightning bolt hitting a metal cage (but
from the inside of the cage/ship). The discharge travels along the cage
(jump grid), but doesn't pass through it.

Comments?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 21:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr 14 20:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CBA3FFD.3090802@yarranet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20020415032922.5193B27A6E@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:

>Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll 
>never get my Tigress at this rate.

Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
level) per month!  <g>


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 22:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Apr 14 21:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>

On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 02:06:05 +0100, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
wrote:

>> Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
>> trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
>> to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external =
fields.
>
>Or, that misjumps are poorly thought out.
>
>They don't work if you use g, the gravitational field acceleration =
because
>it varies so much.
>They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
>themselves.
><SNIP>

Are you certain that traditional Traveller ships will create a tidal
force equivalent to a planet at 10 or even 100 diameters?  I was under
the impression that their mass wasn't sufficient to generate that
level of tidal force.  Further, I wouldn't think a body could exert
tidal force upon itself.

I would welcome anyone doing the math to demonstrate where the tidal
force associated with a planet's 10 diameter or 100 diameter limit
would fall for 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000 ton ships.
If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force upon
itself (and I do doubt that greatly), do these tidal gradients fall
outside a thus displacement sphere (the minimum surface area)?

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 22:26:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 14 21:26:09 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415032922.5193B27A6E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/14/02 8:29 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

> On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:
> 
>> Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll
>> never get my Tigress at this rate.
> 
> Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
> level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
> low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
> level) per month!  <g>

Which makes a steward a well paid individual indeed.  That's about
$140,160/year in adjusted dollars.  The Pilot is raking in about 210 grand a
year in 2002 US dollars.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 23:04:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 22:04:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> I would welcome anyone doing the math to demonstrate where the tidal
> force associated with a planet's 10 diameter or 100 diameter limit
> would fall for 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000 ton ships.

I'll assume that the 100D limit corresponds to a tidal tension
of 4e-13 s^-2, and hence that the 10D gradient is 4e-10 s^-2.

Let us suppose that each ship is spherical with an average density of
500 kg/m^3 (i.e. about 7 tonnes/dton).

Displacement  Diameter  Mass    10D limit  100D limit
(dtons)       (m)       (Mg)    (m)        (m)
100           13.8      685     61.1       611
1000          29.7      6850    131.7      1317
10000         64.0      68500   283.8      2838
100000        138       685000  611.4      6114

As you can see, the hull surface is far inside the 10D limit.

The formulae are pretty simple: mass = density * volume,
volume = pi D^3 / 6  for a sphere,
T = 2 G M / R^3.


> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force
> upon itself

You are.  This is very important in determining Roche's limit, for
example.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 23:15:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr 14 22:15:12 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/14/02 at 09:24 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 4/14/02 8:29 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

>> On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:
>> 
>>> Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll
>>> never get my Tigress at this rate.
>> 
>> Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
>> level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
>> low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
>> level) per month!  <g>

>Which makes a steward a well paid individual indeed.  That's about
>$140,160/year in adjusted dollars.  The Pilot is raking in about 210
>grand a year in 2002 US dollars.

Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
OTU games.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 23:49:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 22:49:11 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
> OTU games.

You don't think it makes sense that people from highly technologically
advanced societies are richer than modern-day Earthlings?  Especially
starship crew, who have to live in cramped conditions in a hostile
environment for weeks at a time?

Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
than bus drivers.  And people in the US generally get paid a lot more
than people in most other countries for comparable occupations.  So to
my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from high-tech
societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20414.230338.5J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 02:06:05 +0100, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
>>> trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
>>> to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external =
> fields.
>>
>>Or, that misjumps are poorly thought out.
>>
>>They don't work if you use g, the gravitational field acceleration =
> because
>>it varies so much.
>>They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
>>themselves.
>><SNIP>
>
> Are you certain that traditional Traveller ships will create a tidal
> force equivalent to a planet at 10 or even 100 diameters?  I was under
> the impression that their mass wasn't sufficient to generate that
> level of tidal force.  Further, I wouldn't think a body could exert
> tidal force upon itself.

No, but tidal force is a (effectively) a measure of how severely space
is curved. 

Acceleration due to gravity is the "slope" of the gravity well. Tidal
forces are the rate at which the slop changes.

> I would welcome anyone doing the math to demonstrate where the tidal
> force associated with a planet's 10 diameter or 100 diameter limit
> would fall for 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000 ton ships.
> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force upon
> itself (and I do doubt that greatly), do these tidal gradients fall
> outside a thus displacement sphere (the minimum surface area)?

The problem is that we need to know the *mass* of the ship, not the
displacement. A "100 ton" ship occupies the same *volume* as 100 tons
of liquid hydrogen. It may mass more or less.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:15:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:15:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEAIDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20414.225006.1X5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>> and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>> (assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>> todal forces are the same.
>
> (Tries it in Excel - ) Neat trick - hadn't seen this before - though I
> suspect it only works because I used a  uniform density, and since that
> won't be the case in the "real" (read:more random/realistic simulation of
> the) universe, then using tidal forces as a basis for misjumps will vary the
> rule either side of 100 diameters - for example, raise the density, and the
> 100 diameter limit drops to ninety something diameters.

Thing is, the density of "rocky" planets (as opposed to gas giants and
the iceballs you find in the outer system) is pretty uniform. 

And for gas giants and iceballs the "critical" tidal force level would
occur well *within* 100 diameters. 

So if there's any sort of safety factor built in to the "100 diameter"
rule, it'll work fine except in *really* oddball situations (say trying
to jump close to a *big* nickel-iron asteroid).

> But it doesn't really matter what causes the misjump effect. The fact
> remains that a given mass will cause some form of gravitational effect that
> invokes a misjump, and when you build a starship of that mass it should be
> affected by its own gravitational effect - and hence misjump.
>
> The maths/details don't really matter here - the concept is the thing. There
> should be an upper limit of some kind on starship size imposed by the
> misjump rule.

The details *do* matter, because the forces at the *hull* of even a
small ship will *exceed* those from a planet at 100 diameters. That's a
*unavoidable*. 

So a ship *has* to be able to compensate for the forces generated by
its own mass.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:15:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:15:55 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020415080419.A22995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20414.231128.0e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>  Liquid methane (liquified natural gas) might be a bit better than
>> water,
>
> Except that it is harder to store, more hazardous, no use in life
> support, less plentiful, and the waste (carbon) is much less useful.
> The same applies to ammonia.  It turns out that the best figure for
> hydrogen per unit volume (for common substances) is a highly
> concentrated ammonia solution.  The waste product from the refining
> process is an oxygen / nitrogen mix.  However it's much worse from a
> handling point of view, and you can't just suck it up from oceans or
> ice moonlets.

Actually, if you are out at the distance of saturn or farther, that
"ice" is apt to be a mix of ammonia, methane and water.

>> There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were topping
>> off with LNG or L-Hyd.
>
> No -- there's nothing for it to burn with if you're fuelling at an
> up-port dock, and even many planets have insufficient oxygen to
> support a flame.  There would be a cryogenic hazard though,
> particularly with LHyd.

Well, liquid hydrogen doesn't respond well to large inputs of energy
either. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:16:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <004d01c1e414$9dbef1a0$bdb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <20414.231508.7E7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: Leonard Erickson
>> It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
>> closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
>> travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
>> builds until it collapses the wormholes.
>
> No surprises there.  And of course, since the possibility to use them for
> FTL implies the possibility of using them for time travel, you can't use
> them for FTL, etc.

Not necessarily. 

There are lots of FTL trips you can take without having actually
transfer of things or information into someone's past. 

You just have to be careful. And it does make it easy to shut down a
wormhole (or a series of them) if you are desperate.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20414.231128.0e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415080419.A22995@freeman.little-possums.net> <20414.231128.0e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020415175248.A24097@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, if you are out at the distance of saturn or farther, that
> "ice" is apt to be a mix of ammonia, methane and water.

Yes, quite true.  Water is more prevalent further in, which I would
guess is where ships are more likely to want to go.  Most spacecraft
in my Traveller universe don't scoop gas giants for hydrogen unless
really desperate; they either slurp it up from oceans or grab it from
icy moons or other bodies.  Sometimes that means throwing away excess
methane and ammonia because they don't have appropriate type of
tankage to hold it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 07:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon Apr 15 06:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CBAD3C8.FEAB4008@attbi.com>


Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
> than bus drivers.  

Um, no they don't. Maybe half if the drivers aren't unionized.

> And people in the US generally get paid a lot more
> than people in most other countries for comparable occupations.  

Oh so true, even more so here in the Peoples Republic of California.

> So to
> my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from high-tech
> societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.

Yah, but like most Mariners today most of that wage comes from
overtime.

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 08:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Apr 15 07:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226C0@USCHM203>

Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term =
>"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
>  =20
> The origin is bugging me....

It definitely goes back to at least the mid to late 80s. I thought that I
might have first seen it in "Striker", which would be around 1981 or so, but
I could be mistaken. As someone else mentioned, the term might have appeared
in a sci-fi novel even earlier.

Brian L. Hurrel
ICS Analyst
EDS
(973) 682-5578


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CBAD3C8.FEAB4008@attbi.com>; from wmacdude@attbi.com on Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 06:21:12AM -0700
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net> <3CBAD3C8.FEAB4008@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20020415092359.A9480@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 06:21:12AM -0700, Evyn MacDude wrote:
> 
> > Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
> > than bus drivers.  

In Denver a driver starts at $12.xx and hour--let's say $13.  They
probably work less than 8 hours a day, but let's say they do.  That's
$104/day, or $540/wk.  Assuming two unpaid weeks of vacation a year,
that's $26,000/yr.  What's the starting rate for a submariner?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism
to decadence without touching civilization.               --John O'Hara

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <001e01c1e492$a431a680$1f9e15ac@warrior>

Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for those kinds of
speciallized skills... I mean how much does a Airliner pilot make now
days...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Little" <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 1:47 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?


> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> > Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
> > OTU games.
>
> You don't think it makes sense that people from highly technologically
> advanced societies are richer than modern-day Earthlings?  Especially
> starship crew, who have to live in cramped conditions in a hostile
> environment for weeks at a time?
>
> Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
> than bus drivers.  And people in the US generally get paid a lot more
> than people in most other countries for comparable occupations.  So to
> my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from high-tech
> societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.
>
>
> - Tim
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:43:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:43:06 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415092359.A9480@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEIJDKAA.tml@downport.com>

Or how about: what is the full-package cost for an experienced, commercial
submarine officer?

Hmm...

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Robert A. Uhl

In Denver a driver starts at $12.xx and hour--let's say $13.  They
probably work less than 8 hours a day, but let's say they do.  That's
$104/day, or $540/wk.  Assuming two unpaid weeks of vacation a year,
that's $26,000/yr.  What's the starting rate for a submariner?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:43:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:43:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

Maybe I'm just too scientifically dumb to follow the
conversation and am therefore saying the same thing
that has already been said, but...

Doesn't a starship (or Jump enabled planet for that
matter) exert gravity inward to it's center?  Isn't
that a different force than the planet or ship or GG
or Star that is closer than 100D?

I always thought the 100D gravity (or whatever) limit
as being more of a sheering force on the Jumping
vessel.  The vessels internal gravity (or whatever)
just isn't sheering on itself.

I'm not all that scientific in these areas, so I may
be wrong or completely invalid, but that is my
handwave. :)

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 10:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Mon Apr 15 09:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <F209D689cMhtTYDGGfA000197d5@hotmail.com>

One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
than they pay out in claims.

If you are a large enough organization, like a Mega-Corp,
then your insurable losses from any particular event should
be low enough (as a percentage of your total income) that it
will be a better option for you to absorb the losses as they
occur rather than continuously pay out insurance premiums.
You'll "self-insure", by keeping cash on hand enough to cover emergencies 
and accidents.  This is a good way for a large
enough company to do business, since this "cash on hand",
while it's on hand, can be earning for the company while
insurance premiums are gone.

If a catastrophe happens that destroys more value of your
megacorp assets than you would have been paying out in
insurance premiums, then chances are a war caused it - and
insurance companies are noted for not paying out claims
on damage caused by acts of war anyway.

So, you'll have two tiers of starship out there.  The
small or independent operator, who buys insurance (since a
single event will likely put him out of business otherwise).
The large corp, which may self-insure (that is, put money
aside to cover replacement, rather than pay out premiums).

If most of a starport's traffic is megacorp vessels,
then that starport won't have the insurance industry
involved as much with starport safety requirements.
The megacorp may have to post a bond of some sort, but
this bond may be a trivial formality if the megacorp
is in bed with the local starport authority...which they
probably will be, the megacorp likely built the bed,
washed the linens and hired the nubile young bedwarmers.

The small independent operator may have to post a bond
of sorts to gain access to a starport as well.  This bond
may well be posted by the independent operator's insurance
carrier on behalf of all the carrier's clients, with the
insurance carrier requiring operators to meet certain
safety guidelines to get coverage and access to the bond.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 10:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon Apr 15 09:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
Message-ID: <OF79538278.A1B0E48C-ON85256B9C.005AE8D9@pheaa.org>

has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a line at
wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.

thanks

Bill


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 10:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 09:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
Message-ID: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Here I go again. Please don't kill me  :-)

Right now I'm adding population generation to my script.

Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake  ;-)

"That's no moon"

I could see people turning a small moon into swiss cheese and living in
it, but at that point it will cease to be a moon and begin to be a space
station built using an asteroid hull.

Are there any good reasons not to use asteroids or small moons as hulls
for space stations? It would be a lot cheaper, and easier to expand (to a
certain limit). Just dig a few more tunnels.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204151701.ECX05851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Christopher Pratt says
>
>Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for 
>those kinds of speciallized skills... I mean how much does a 
>Airliner pilot make now days...
>
It's not as though a pilot today has to know as much as they 
used to.  Celestial navigation? LORAN? Dead reckoning? Nope.  
If you can use a GPS and know how to use the flight computer, 
it's just not as difficult as it used to be.  In fact, 
there's a lot to the handling of current aircraft that is 
done by the computer. It "helps" you, and you don't even 
notice that it's doing so.

Mostly, pilots are there to try and land the plane if 
something goes wrong.  There is little technical reason at 
this point why we could not design pilotless aircraft - in 
fact, there are compelling safety reasons to do so.  There 
are some FAA people I talked to who say that sometime in the 
next 20 years, they are going to try and fully automate 
everything from takeoff to landing (some aircraft are already 
capable of this).  At that point, it is questionable what you 
would need a pilot for.  He would be a glorified bus driver.

ObTrav:  What is a pilot, anyway?  Doesn't a pilot largely 
perform naviagational tasks?  In movies, yeah, fighter pilot 
city - just like WW II (image of Leia pointing and 
saying "star destroyer" -- good thing we spent all that money 
on radar when she can just point out the window).  But IMTU - 
well, there's an ability to takeoff and land, but in major 
starports, that could be automated.  Docking maneuvers?  Once 
again, probably safer if automated.  A pilot is -- really a 
coordinator -- making all of the ship's systems work 
together, and making decisions about where to go and how.

Like a navigator, with wings.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018890322.7515.ajackson@ping>

Jens Rydholm writes:
> Here I go again. Please don't kill me  :-)
> 
> Right now I'm adding population generation to my script.
> 
> Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
> than 100 miles to have a population?

Well, in habitats sure.  Thermal effects put a practical limit of around a
million people times diameter squared (and the moon will glow in infrared), 
but that's not terribly limiting.

> Are there any good reasons not to use asteroids or small moons as hulls
> for space stations? It would be a lot cheaper, and easier to expand (to a
> certain limit). Just dig a few more tunnels.

Well, you want a solid asteroid as opposed to a gravel pile, but given that
traveller has gravetics for artificial gravity, it's practical enough.  Doubt
that the cost differences would be huge, however.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <F68hRaUMNGCXWGmQyt500005973@hotmail.com>

From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>

     "In Denver a driver starts at $12.xx and hour--let's say $13.  They
probably work less than 8 hours a day, but let's say they do.  That's
$104/day, or $540/wk.  Assuming two unpaid weeks of vacation a year,
that's $26,000/yr.  What's the starting rate for a submariner?"


Mr. Uhl,

     Good point, and let's not forget benefits.  Most employers who  don't 
provide benefits tend to pay slightly higher salaries.  Please note, I'm 
talking about skilled positions in this context and not minimum wage 
Wal-Mart meat puppets.
     Give Mr. Kramden above a family medical policy, a dental plan, life 
insurance, and employer contributions to a 401(K) and/or pension plan, and 
his "earnings" increase by another $10,000/yr or so.
     The "March Harrier" and her ilk are not going to provide any of these 
"bennies" at all.  In order to compete in the same labor market as the 
mega-corps, smaller outfits will offer slightly higher salaries.
     The Wal-Marts of the future will still have the upper hand when it 
comes to hiring floor moppers however.(If we still waste human labor on such 
tasks that is.)  Just like today, Wal-Mart's inclusion of benefits in their 
compensation package will keep their supply of min-wage types bountiful as 
opposed to the corner "Quik-E-Mart."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <F55WYIgoFT3kMUVfNIJ0000272d@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>Mostly, pilots are there to try and land the plane if
>something goes wrong.  There is little technical reason at
>this point why we could not design pilotless aircraft - in
>fact, there are compelling safety reasons to do so.  There
>are some FAA people I talked to who say that sometime in the
>next 20 years, they are going to try and fully automate
>everything from takeoff to landing (some aircraft are already
>capable of this).  At that point, it is questionable what you
>would need a pilot for.  He would be a glorified bus driver.

I have read where the F-22 is described as the Air Force's "last" manned 
fighter.

Also, apparently the thing that replaced the SR71 is not manned.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204151758.ECZ05255@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>
>I have read where the F-22 is described as the Air 
>Force's "last" manned fighter.
>
>Also, apparently the thing that replaced the SR71 is not 
>manned.
>

In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your 
starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local 
stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au> <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>

Si wrote:

> Any update on T20?
>
> Does anyone know when we are likely to see the 'offending' article ?
>
> Si
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

oops,

I sincerely apologise to everyone involved in the T20 project.  My
forgetting to include a 'smiley' totally changed the emphasis of the
message and made it seem negative.  IT WAS NOT MEANT TO BE, as I am
really looking forward to T20.  for those of you who are not aware of
the Open Gaming licence, using the d20 system means that everything is
(to a significant degree) interchangeable.  This means that (with only a
little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.

:-)

Si




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <F209D689cMhtTYDGGfA000197d5@hotmail.com>
References: <F209D689cMhtTYDGGfA000197d5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020415201231.2a376fbc.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Walt Smith wrote:
> One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
> only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
> than they pay out in claims.
<snip>

A very nice post indeed. I don't really have anything to add, but I'll
just note that the post didn't disappear in the dreaded black hole of
quality. It was archived on my harddrive  :-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
In-Reply-To: <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
 <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net> <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <20020415201431.3145d14b.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Si wrote:
> little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
> them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
> terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.

Kind of like GURPS  ;-)

I am also just kidding. I probably won't purchase the main T20 book, but
one can never have too much background material  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
Message-ID: <OF66D276C9.2DAD1A83-ON85256B9C.006477EE@pheaa.org>





<snip>
> little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
> them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
> terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.
</snip>

Im really looking forward to this. i got an order in at my FLGS already 8)

Bill






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
Message-ID: <200204151824.EDB00561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm just hoping for a better skill resolution system (hoping 
for a better combat system may be a forlorn one).
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <200204151824.EDB00561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB1C87.D6550A25@virgin.net>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> I'm just hoping for a better skill resolution system (hoping
> for a better combat system may be a forlorn one).
> ________________
> "Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

The skill systems should be (AFAIK) similar to that of 3e.  Namely a
skill modifier is equal to the number of ranks you have bought in a
skill plus a modifier based upon the skills determining characteristic.

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An interesting product - anything like this in Traveller?
References: <200204141322.EAV00067@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB1D32.5000002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> In any ship or vehicle design sequence, is there anything 
> like this?  It seems to be an internal add-on that reduces 
> the potential for internal explosions.
> 
> http://www.blastgard.net/outlook.asp

This is probably part of the composite hull material, which does start 
to appear at TL8-9...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:35:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:35:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a
 starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV14LEGhUOjO0L6WkQ00004c57@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020411151634.0209ac08@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020415142902.020c6250@mail.qrc.com>

At 09:40 AM 4/13/2002, Texas Redshift wrote:
>After scrying using the Orb of Google, it appears that we may both mean the
>Law of Finds rather than salvage.

Probably; I'm not a lawyer (and only occasionally play one on the Internet).

>In many cases, this compensation is such that simply giving the salvor 
>salvaged property is the best way to straighten things out.

And as a gaming rule of thumb, it'll certainly do.

>Note also that special cases seem to apply to historical shipwrecks and
>military vessels.

Yes; IMTU I'd make the call that military shipwrecks remain Imperial 
property (and thus might be salvaged by the Imperium or it's agents and 
contractors, but not by private groups), and historical wrecks (including 
war graves, memorials, etc.) can be so designated by a proclamation from 
the appropriate nobility.

Thanks for the links!

   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 12:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
References: <20413.120658.7M5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB24B3.8020600@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Well, back in the late 60s/early 70s, I used to grab the Air Force
> equivalent ("in flight meal packs") at the commissary to take on Boy
> Scout camping trips. Basicly, we used them for dinner on Friday night
> when we were tired after setting up camp, and didn't feel much like
> putting a lot of effort into cooking. 

My roommate used to get those by the case at the PX, most of them 
weren't bad by starving college student, top ramen and tuna surprise 
standards.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Backwater areas in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <3C90ACCA.20039.9DF165@localhost>
Message-ID: <20415.121345.7z0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 13 Mar 2002 at 14:47, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > Another option might be hypervelocity rockets with a penetrator.
>> > Something the size of a LAW or AT-4 that accelerates up to 2000+
>> > meters per second in the tube and with a DU penetrator. 
>> 
>> Eek! Do you have any idea what sort of rocket motor you are talking
>> about here? 
>> 
>> Work out the acceleration required, just for starters. 
>> 
>> The backblast will be nasty, and a cracked fuel grain will take out the
>> person firing the rocket.
>
> The NZ Air Force used to (when we still had a strike wing) use Canadian 
> 120mm rockets that had a tungsten carbide penetrator like a tank gun 
> round as their warhead. IIRC they have a similar velocity to that of a 
> tank gun and, as the body stayed attached, more mass. We used them for 
> anti-shipping and they'd no nasty things to a frigate from barely on 
> the horizon. I think the SOP was to fly in at 10,000 feet until the 
> ship appeared over the horizon, fire, then dive back under the horizon 
> before the SAMs got to you.
>
> Therefore the basic idea is feasible at TL7-8, it's just a matter of 
> getting the thing small enough for a man to carry. As for fuel grain 
> cracks - thet's an issue with any rocket or missile, so why make an 
> issue of it for this one? The (likely) higher internal pressure?

A blast that will "inconvenience" a jet fighter will make hamburger out
of an infantryman. And ordnance attached to aircraft gets handled a
*lot* more gently than anything a soldier is packing around in combat.

Also, as noted elsewhere, I can just about guarantee that the
antishipping missile *didn't* reach full velocity in less than 100
meters, much less less than *2* meters.

The big objection is to the missile reaching full velocity by the time
it exits the launch tube. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:01:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:01:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20415.122550.9R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Maybe I'm just too scientifically dumb to follow the
> conversation and am therefore saying the same thing
> that has already been said, but...
>
> Doesn't a starship (or Jump enabled planet for that
> matter) exert gravity inward to it's center?  Isn't
> that a different force than the planet or ship or GG
> or Star that is closer than 100D?

Nope. Or at least not in a simple manner.

The gravitational forces inside a hollow sphere *cancel*. For other
shapes, you need a lot of calculus to figure what sort of forces you get.

Inside a solid sphere, of uniform density, you get the interesting
result that the force of gravity is a *maximum* at the surface and
drops *linearly* to zero at the center.

For one of varying density, where the density varies in spherical
"layers", it's a bit weirder, but you can figure it out by just taking
the mass of the solid sphere that's closer to the center than you are.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:01:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:01:56 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020415175248.A24097@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20415.124737.8e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Actually, if you are out at the distance of saturn or farther, that
>> "ice" is apt to be a mix of ammonia, methane and water.
>
> Yes, quite true.  Water is more prevalent further in, which I would
> guess is where ships are more likely to want to go.  Most spacecraft
> in my Traveller universe don't scoop gas giants for hydrogen unless
> really desperate; they either slurp it up from oceans or grab it from
> icy moons or other bodies.  Sometimes that means throwing away excess
> methane and ammonia because they don't have appropriate type of
> tankage to hold it.

If you aren't scooping from a gas giant, you don't *need* tankage.
Except for a rather small amount to hold stuff that you are feeding
thru the systems that "crack" the hydrogen out of them.

Both methane and ammonia will burn with oxygen. So you crack some water
(thermally or via electrolysis) and use the oxygen to burn the methane
and ammonia to N2, H20 & CO2. You condense the H20 and crack it to get
back the oxygen. The CO2 and N2 get either discrard or fed into the
life support system's atomosphere reprocessing section. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:02:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:02:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Here I go again. Please don't kill me  :-)
>
> Right now I'm adding population generation to my script.
>
> Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
> than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
> become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
> of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake  ;-)
>
> "That's no moon"
>
> I could see people turning a small moon into swiss cheese and living in
> it, but at that point it will cease to be a moon and begin to be a space
> station built using an asteroid hull.

Okay that six mile (I assume diameter, if it's radius, multiply all
areas below by 4) rockball has a surface area of just over 3 billion
square feet. Equivalent to a square 10.6 miles on a side. That's a
*lot* bigger than Manhattan.

Which gives each of those 10,000 people roughly 315,000 square feet. Or
an area about 560 feet square.  That's a couple of city blocks!

Say it's 50,000. That reduces things to 63,000 squae feet apiece. An
area only 250 feet square.

Allow burrowing only a few hundred feet into the surface, and the
amount of space gets positively *obscene*. And it's still a moon or
asteroid, not a station with an asteroid hull.

Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
buildings and the like.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
Message-ID: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>

--part1_a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
> than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
> become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
> of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake  ;-)

I would say that isn't really a problem, for reasons that others have gone
into in plenty of detail.

One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of rock in 
a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons of inhabited 
planets,
a few large bodies in any given planetoid belt, maybe.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
<BR>&gt; than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
<BR>&gt; become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
<BR>&gt; of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake &nbsp;;-)
<BR>
<BR>I would say that isn't really a problem, for reasons that others have gone
<BR>into in plenty of detail.
<BR>
<BR>One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of rock in 
<BR>a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons of inhabited planets,
<BR>a few large bodies in any given planetoid belt, maybe.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020415190106.CE88227B71@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB4144.FF9D2823@earthlink.net>

John T. Kwon
> 
> 
> In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?

Yes. It's called "TL17". TL14 for those playing GT.

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <200204151758.ECZ05255@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E09124.3A634%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?

Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right when the user no
longer understands what's going on behind the 'curtain'.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8e0f93f2f0d@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>todal forces are the same.

A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the 
size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity 
in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal 
gradient.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:46:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:46:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020416074539.A25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
> I always thought the 100D gravity (or whatever) limit as being more
> of a sheering force on the Jumping vessel.  The vessels internal
> gravity (or whatever) just isn't sheering on itself.

Well, gravitational fields in empty space exert a combination of
stretching and compressional tides, not shearing.  Once you look at
the field *inside* some point of a body, it is a sum of the
compressional/stretching due to external fields, with a pure
compressional tide due to local density.

The simplest case is the interior of a sphere of uniform density.  In
that case, *every* point within the sphere has an isotropic and
homogeneous compression tide.  The strength is independent of location
within the sphere, and also independent of the size of the sphere.
(The mechanical pressure does vary with position and size however)

Grossly non-uniform and asymmetric bodies like starships have tidal
gradients that are horribly 'lumpy' throughout and difficult to plug
into an equation :/  You can still do the maths, but you need a
computer to actually add up all the numbers.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>
References: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020416080223.B25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of
> rock in a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons
> of inhabited planets, a few large bodies in any given planetoid
> belt, maybe.

I might go that far in a setting where a spacefaring civilization had
been confined to a single star system for *ages*.  Like the Moties,
for example.  The Imperium has too much room to move, and too low a
population for a 10km cometary body in the inner Oort cloud to look in
the least attractive as a home if there are any alternatives.

But I'd get a computer to do the actual number-crunching, and get
statistical features rather than individual figures.  Just things like
the probability that a given body of certain diameter, location, and
composition is inhabited, and by how many if so.  e.g. "1.3 trillion
living in asteroids of 5 km diameter or less in the inner belt", that
sort of thing.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20415.124737.8e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415175248.A24097@freeman.little-possums.net> <20415.124737.8e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020416081241.C25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Both methane and ammonia will burn with oxygen. So you crack some water
> (thermally or via electrolysis) and use the oxygen to burn the methane
> and ammonia to N2, H20 & CO2. You condense the H20 and crack it to get
> back the oxygen. The CO2 and N2 get either discrard or fed into the
> life support system's atomosphere reprocessing section. 

I don't see what I get from this.

IMTU, there is only a small tank capable of holding LHyd with all the
associated cryogenic systems, ultralow temperature pumps and such
expensive stuff.  It primarily feeds the jump drive when entering
jump.  The rest of the fuel space is designed to hold water which I
can slowly refine using a fuel processor during jump.

So the limit on how much fuel I can hold is how much oxygen is
available to bind the hydrogen into water for my large (and cheap)
tanks.  Discarding CO2 from burning methane is hence worse than just
throwing away the methane.  I might extract some nitrogen from the
ammonia to replenish any atmosphere losses, but that's about it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020416082357.D25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

[Jens wrote:]
> > I could see people turning a small moon into swiss cheese and living in
> > it, but at that point it will cease to be a moon and begin to be a space
> > station built using an asteroid hull.

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
> things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
> buildings and the like.

You can say that again!  A moon of 50 mile diameter has a volume of
about 20 trillion dtons.  Suppose the moon was indeed turned in "swiss
cheese".  Even if only 1% of the space was living quarters, that's
still 200 billion dtons.  Just think how many staterooms you could fit
into that!  Heck, give every single person 2000 cubic metres in that
1% volume (a rather large house, and that's per person, not per
family) and you've still got room for over a billion people.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>; from JFZeigler@aol.com on Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 04:10:04PM -0400
References: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020415163142.B9543@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 04:10:04PM -0400, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> 
> One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of
> rock in a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons
> of inhabited planets, a few large bodies in any given planetoid
> belt, maybe.

I dunno.  If it _can_ be inhabited, it _may_ be inhabited, and good
random tables should reflect this.

I know that when I finally get the GT world generation done for
travlib that it's going to generate population for every world
(i.e. belt, terrestrial planet and moon).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I read [.doc files] with 'rm.'  All you lose is the Microsoft-specific
font selections, the macro viruses and the luser babblings.
                                      --Gary `Wolf' Barnes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <OF66D276C9.2DAD1A83-ON85256B9C.006477EE@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <007401c1e4cf$89095d20$5d9393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Im really looking forward to this. i got an order in at my FLGS already 8)
>
> Bill
>

Then you'll be pleased to learn that I'm working through the final-ish edit
on the "offending article" right now.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:52:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:52:05 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au> <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net> <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <008901c1e4cf$efbbccb0$5d9393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> I sincerely apologise to everyone involved in the T20 project.  My
> forgetting to include a 'smiley' totally changed the emphasis of the
> message and made it seem negative.  IT WAS NOT MEANT TO BE, as I am
> really looking forward to T20.  for those of you who are not aware of
> the Open Gaming licence, using the d20 system means that everything is
> (to a significant degree) interchangeable.  This means that (with only a
> little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
> them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
> terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.

Heh. I must have missed the original post - gone back and found it now - so
I've decided to be mildly (and retrospectively) annoyed - just to make it
worth your time in writing the apology. (grin).

We're in final preparation now. Layout is still to do, but more or less, we
have a product. I'm guessing weeks now.

Regards

MJD




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 17:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr 15 16:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: open source rpg development
Message-ID: <20020415233039.66503.qmail@web11304.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I do wish to point out who is affected by an effort
that results in taking market share from professional
game designers.  Regardless of their original intent. 
It will be the folks like Loren who live on a
shoestring instead of folks like Bill Gates who
already has more money than he has a purpose for.
END QUOTE

But then it could be argued that any one new who has
an original RPG shouldn't publish (openly or
commercially) because it would take market share from
the already established publihers. Now that idea is
ridiculous. However it wouldn't be moral to make a
open source version of Trav, because then you would be
stealing the ideas of people who need them to make a
living. I however feel that if you want to make a new
original RPG you should go ahead. It's a capatilist
society and if you can't compete against FAR competion
than no one is going to subsidise you (unless you have
friend's in government). I do think people like Loren
do deserve our support though (even though I wouldn't
touch GURPS with a ten foot pole)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 17:41:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 16:41:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Changes to First In rules
In-Reply-To: <20020316213935.3edca0b2.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <005001c1e4d7$00aec5c0$0f01a8c0@terry>

> When working on my program for First In star system generation (see my
> other recent post), I decided to make a few minor changes to the way
the
> rules work. Do the changes below sound reasonable?

I was just looking this over to add to mine and realized there is a
problem with your ratios. A standard sector has stellar systems much
more often than your ratios. It looks like your average assumes 200
systems per sector and that is very low for standard. A sector has 32x40
or 1280 hexes and standard is a 1/2 chance per hex for an average of
640. 
 
> 1) A primary star has a 1/500 chance of being a supergiant. This gives
one
> supergiant per 2.5 sectors (of standard stellar density).

Average of 1.28 per sector, limit of one please!
 
> 2) A primary star has a 1/1500 chance of being a type O star,
resulting in
> one type O star per 7.5 sectors.

Average of one per 2.3 sectors.

> 3) A primary star has a 1/500 chance of being a type B star, resulting
in
> one type B star per 2.5 sectors.

Average of 1.28 per sector. 
 
Regards,

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204160006.EDL06288@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right 
>when the user no longer understands what's going on behind 
>the 'curtain'.
>
And how many users know what's going on behind the scenes in 
their browser?  Why is AOL so popular?  Because most people 
don't know and don't care what goes on behind the curtain.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I remember thinking one time when I was staring down
the barrel of a .45, "thank God he does not have a
knife."  Getting penetrated by a knife is 
somehow terrifying, and it also gives the wielder
credible non-lethal options.  I think there have been
several instances in recent times when 
bayonet charges have routed the enemy, even if no one
actually got stabbed. A bayonet would be vital for
handling prisoners, and possibly even reluctant 
heroes.  ;)
END QUOTE

Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
to see is a cloud of dust ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020415.203959.-193407.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

What, because you have dust in your veins instead of blood?  ;-)



                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB75B0.45698CC5@premier.net>


James Ramsay wrote:
> 
> QUOTE
> I remember thinking one time when I was staring down
> the barrel of a .45, "thank God he does not have a
> knife."  Getting penetrated by a knife is
> somehow terrifying, and it also gives the wielder
> credible non-lethal options.  I think there have been
> several instances in recent times when
> bayonet charges have routed the enemy, even if no one
> actually got stabbed. A bayonet would be vital for
> handling prisoners, and possibly even reluctant
> heroes.  ;)
> END QUOTE
> 
> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

And that, sir, is why armies still issue bayonets.... ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020415230829.93725.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
The person who deserves the biggest rocket up the arse
in "Aliens" (military-wise) is the pilot of the
dropship. Though she was originally told that the LZ
had been secured, she'd never make a Traveller-PC
group.
END QUOTE

Thats a bit unfair, it was spunkmeyer who went to take
a piss out side. And I think even recon would get
rattled after the nest encounter. Another thing to
consider is that according to the background material
most of the marines where conscripts. Drake and
Vasquez where convicted criminals and thier sentance
was life in the marines! Now what does that tell you
about the casualty rate of the USCM? No wonder they
only had one squad on a big arse ship like the sulaco!

On a tangent I watched Aliens and Star Wars the other
day and noticed that both use the same type of headset
comunicators. Oh and a funny thing here in Australia,
three of our sailors where arrested for damaging earth
moving equipment! And these people are protecting our
waters?

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 19:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 18:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020416031009.2bda525e.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
> things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
> buildings and the like.

Thank you for hitting me with the "stupid" stick for the second time in
the last days, Leonard  :-)

I'll crawl back into my dark corner now.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 20:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 19:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CT/Book 5 question
Message-ID: <200204160206.EDP04153@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

OK.  Actually a Book 5 question.  Ship has partial 
streamlining. Under the rules, it can do gas giant 
refueling.  If it can move through an upper atmosphere like 
that (presumably at some velocity - after all, we don't want 
to spiral in), can you land such a ship on a world with a 
standard atmosphere?

How does an air/raft do it?  1-G acceleration.  You're riding 
in a vehicle about the size of a HMMWV with the top down.

Feel that wind in your hair...

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 21:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 15 20:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>; from quakers_united@yahoo.com.au on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:36:12AM +1000
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:36:12AM +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
> 
> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

Unless he's the faster...

That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
convincing opposing argument:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Yes, we will want simultaneous translators...No, not when the PM meets
the leaders of the English-speaking nations...Yes, the English-speaking
nations can be said to include the United States.
          --Bernard Wooley, `Yes, Prime Minister'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 22:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon Apr 15 21:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CT/Book 5 question
References: <200204160206.EDP04153@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB9B7E.656C5156@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> OK.  Actually a Book 5 question.  Ship has partial
> streamlining. Under the rules, it can do gas giant
> refueling.  If it can move through an upper atmosphere like
> that (presumably at some velocity - after all, we don't want
> to spiral in), can you land such a ship on a world with a
> standard atmosphere?
>
> How does an air/raft do it?  1-G acceleration.  You're riding
> in a vehicle about the size of a HMMWV with the top down.
>
> Feel that wind in your hair...
>
> ________________
> "Imposed armistices . . . artificially
> freeze conflict and perpetuate a state
> of war indefinitely by shielding the
> weaker side from the consequences of
> refusing to make concessions for peace."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Streamlined ships are trans atmospheric. Air rafts take a number of
hours equal to the UPP size of the planet to orbit/deorbit.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:36:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:36:45 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020416064248.CB2DF279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/15/02 at 03:47 PM,  Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> said:

>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>> Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
>> OTU games.

>You don't think it makes sense that people from highly
>technologically advanced societies are richer than modern-day
>Earthlings?  Especially starship crew, who have to live in cramped
>conditions in a hostile environment for weeks at a time?

No, I don't.  

>Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot
>more than bus drivers.  And people in the US generally get paid a lot
>more than people in most other countries for comparable occupations. 
>So to my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from
>high-tech societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.

The crews of free traders *are* the truck drivers and mechanics of the
TU, and that's how they should be paid. That's my opinion, and how it
works IMTU, YTUMV.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:37:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:37:16 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <001e01c1e492$a431a680$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/15/02 at 11:31 AM,  Christopher Pratt <cdpratt@gatecom.com>
said:

>Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for those
>kinds of speciallized skills... I mean how much does a Airliner pilot
>make now days...

Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:39:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:39:10 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <OF4155728C.34ECCD82-ONCA256B9D.00183047@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Eris opined:
>>> On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:
>>> 
>>>> Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll
>>>> never get my Tigress at this rate.
>>> 
>>> Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
>>> level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
>>> low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
>>> level) per month!  <g>
>
>>Which makes a steward a well paid individual indeed.  That's about
>>$140,160/year in adjusted dollars.  The Pilot is raking in about 210
>>grand a year in 2002 US dollars.
>
>Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
>OTU games.

I don't see much of a problem with it. It is in line with - but not 
excessively over-the-top - the idea that the more high-tech a society, the 
more resources each individual in society has to "spend". All of us on the 
TML, for instance, would be considered tremendously wealthy by folks who 
lived a hundred years ago, let alone when compared to peasants living back 
in the days of William the Conqueror.

Star Trek, for example, portrays this is a nicely understated way by 
removing the tokens of money, but then allowing crewmembers to book time 
on the holodeck, or use the replicator. Remember when Harry 
I've-gone-blank-on-his-surname (Voyager's navigator) decided to forgo his 
replicated meal allowance (and eat Neelix's food! Paris: "Hair? I assume 
that's just an expression?" Neelix: "No!") in order to replicate a violin? 
That's the sort of magical transformation that all those alchemists dreamt 
about! (Actually, they would have been happy with just a lump of gold, but 
you get my drift... ;-).

Originally (in 1977), Marc set 1 credit equal to US$1 - at least, on the 
interstellar beer ratio. I believe that may have been modified in the 
early '80's to Cr 1 = US$2. Then you have the effects of those 
local-vs-Imperial credit exchange rate tables (one appears in an early 
JTAS, for instance) which up's the ante again. In short, a pilot paid 
wages in Imperial credits, who then lands on a backwater world, is in a 
similar situation to a modern-day pilot (paid in, say UK pounds or US $$ - 
not AU$, sorry Phill! ;-) who lands in Rwanda. Or Zimbabwe. Or even India. 
He can lord in about and spend all that cash, or can save it up for his 
time back home on that high-tech homeworld where _one_ air/raft costs 
Cr400,000.

Don't sweat it - it's not _that_ hard to get rid of PC's money. I'm sure 
Eris only gave his PBeM players a ship in order to give them a big black 
money-pit... Just make them keep track of everything. I've had one player 
in my game saying the the others, "I know we're under attack, but these 
missiles are Cr10,000 _each_! Do you know how much this missile salvo is 
going to cost us??" To which I, as DM, coached, "Andrew, you're playing a 
_male_ Aslan. WHO CARES how much those missiles cost, just FIRE!!" As a 
large (toothy ;-) grin appeared from behind his beard, the others realised 
the monetary implications of a trigger-happy gunner. This led nicely to 
the party arguing about how many missiles they were going to "waste" on 
defence, while all the while the nasty pirate was allowed to continue 
lasering away their several-orders-of-magnitude-more-expensive superdense 
hull plating!!  ;-)

Ah, me! Players are good at shooting themselves in the foot. You just have 
to get creative when helping them to aim. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:40:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:40:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
Message-ID: <OFF290291A.CB37BC25-ONCA256B9D.0017EFD0@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>>Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
>>"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
>>
>> The origin is bugging me....
>
>It definitely goes back to at least the mid to late 80s. I thought that I
>might have first seen it in "Striker", which would be around 1981 or so, 
but
>I could be mistaken.

You are not mistaken. It's mentioned in Striker Book 2, part of the 
"Integrating with Traveller" section.

My bet is that it goes back to "Starship Troopers".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:43:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:43:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com> <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>

On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:02:50 +1000, Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

>I'll assume that the 100D limit corresponds to a tidal tension
>of 4e-13 s^-2, and hence that the 10D gradient is 4e-10 s^-2.
>
>Let us suppose that each ship is spherical with an average density of
>500 kg/m^3 (i.e. about 7 tonnes/dton).

I.e., about half that of an equal volume of water.  This is probably a
bit low on the density for most Traveller ships, but it is certainly
not too far off the mark for smaller ships which are capable of ocean
refueling.

>Displacement  Diameter  Mass    10D limit  100D limit
>(dtons)       (m)       (Mg)    (m)        (m)
>100           13.8      685     61.1       611
>1000          29.7      6850    131.7      1317
>10000         64.0      68500   283.8      2838
>100000        138       685000  611.4      6114
>
>As you can see, the hull surface is far inside the 10D limit.
>
>The formulae are pretty simple: mass =3D density * volume,
>volume =3D pi D^3 / 6  for a sphere,
>T =3D 2 G M / R^3.

Thanks for providing the formulas in addition to doing the table.
This certainly is useful for an earlier discussion regarding Jump
Masking (consult the archives if you are curious).

>JR Holmes wrote:
>> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force
>> upon itself
>
>You are.  This is very important in determining Roche's limit, for
>example.

I remain unconvinced in this regard.  "Roche's Limit is the distance
from a planet inside which a satellite will be torn apart by tidal
forces." (from http://www.cvc.org/astronomy/roche_limit.htm) or
"Roche's Limit, which is the distance from a planet at which the
planet's tidal force on a satellite (tending to stretch apart) is
equal to the satellite's self-gravity (tending to hold it together)."
(from http://utrao.as.utexas.edu/ast301/log/log22.html)

As per the above, Roche's Limit is where these tidal forces (a
tensional force) equal the compressional forces of an object's own
gravity.  But this is in regard to the tidal forces exerted _with
regard to another body_.  Without the other body, no tidal force.

It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In another
of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional and
compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive me if
I am interpreting you incorrectly).  I believe you are in error in
this regard.  As per the above, the compressional forces are due to
the object's self-gravity and only the tensional forces are due to the
influence of another body and therefore are tidal forces.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:43:58 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8E09124.3A634%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEKDHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Tod Glenn wrote :
> on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> > In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> > starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> > stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
>
> Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.
> Right when the user no longer understands what's going
> on behind the 'curtain'.

That happens at TL 6 for most people.

How many people actually understand how even an internal
combustion engine works, let alone a computer ?

IME, the vast majority of people (i.e people who don't
subscribe to the TML) effectively consider anything beyond
simple mechanical machines "magic".

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:44:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:44:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
(of radiation effects on fertility)
> Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
> men, if you prefer)?

Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
the testis to ionising radiation.

Larsen Whipsnade wrote :-
> GURPS, in Compendium II, handles this in the following manner.
> If a female has a lifetime dose of 250 rads, her offspring, and
> any problems they may have, are entirely at the GM's discretion.
There probably won't be any offspring (permanent sterility in 75%).

> Realistic?  Yes.
Nah, in GURPS it's usually an excuse for the GM to introduce Weird
Mutant Powers (TM) <g>


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:45:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:45:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.225006.1X5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi,

> Thing is, the density of "rocky" planets (as opposed to gas giants and
> the iceballs you find in the outer system) is pretty uniform.

For Mercury (5.43), Venus (5.24) and Earth (5.52), yes.
For Mars (3.93), any Jovian moon (some of which are considered "rocky", e.g.
Io, at 3.53), and a few others, no.
Personally, I'd reckon that density can vary considerably even for rocky
worlds, say from 3.0 to nearly 7.8 (almost totally iron) or 8.5+ (almost
totally nickel).

> So if there's any sort of safety factor built in to the "100 diameter"
> rule, it'll work fine except in *really* oddball situations (say trying
> to jump close to a *big* nickel-iron asteroid).

So ... if I had a planet with an extremely large Ni-Fe core, and a higher
mean density as a result, say towards 6.5 or 7.0, then the 100D rule would
not be good enough. Another hazard for exploring uncharted systems, I guess.

> The details *do* matter, because the forces at the *hull* of even a
> small ship will *exceed* those from a planet at 100 diameters. That's a
> *unavoidable*.

Leonard, please don't emphasise words with asterisks. It just makes things
harder to read and comes over patronising, even if that's not intended.

*Try* *reading* *this* *sentence* *to* *see* *what* *I* *mean*.

Also, if we have to handwave away the tidal gradient due to the ship's hull,
then I'd argue that the tidal gradient is not the principal factor in a
misjump, no matter how well the figures fit.

> So a ship *has* to be able to compensate for the forces generated by
> its own mass.

Having said that, if that's the case, then maybe that's where all the Jump
Fuel goes - maybe.

Andy B
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:49:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:49:13 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>

I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
_recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.

Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
like you are too valuable to lose.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:50:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:50:20 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OF79538278.A1B0E48C-ON85256B9C.005AE8D9@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBC25E4.2080505@magpiesnest.co.uk>

William Lane wrote:

> has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a line at
> wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.
> 
Certainly have Bill (though now I tend to use JAXP, which is based around Xerces but has differences). Send me your questions and I will do my best to answer them for you.



-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:56:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:56:07 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW! I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <F165K8onzvMMl6Dcu4n00003775@hotmail.com>

Congratulations, Jeff!  Thanks for *your* work!


>From: Jeff Zeitlin <editor@freelancetraveller.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
>Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 07:23:41 -0400
>
>I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
>protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
>Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
>flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
>never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
>_recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
>
>Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
>allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
>more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
>you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
>like you are too valuable to lose.
>
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
>Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
>http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
>http://www.freelancetraveller.com
>http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
>editor@freelancetraveller.com
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
Message-ID: <OF8A9C8510.72B94182-ON85256B9D.004D468D@pheaa.org>








>> has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a line at
>> wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.

>Certainly have Bill (though now I tend to use JAXP, which is based around
Xerces but has differences). Send me your >questions and I will do my best
to answer them for you.


Here is what im doing im developing a java application that reads an xml
file and parses it into 3 seperate COBOL data files. the cobol group
eventually runs their apps and uses the data from these flat files. once
they are through they send them back to me. i then want to parse these 3
files into a single new xml file.

i have gotten to where i am creating the new document. i can append
children on it ect.. ect..

however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to actually be
written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im new to XML and Xerces
is not the best documented thing i have ever worked with. i was looking at
maybe using the serializer to send a outPutStream through it. but it would
seem to me that xerces should have a way of building this document out on
the drive.

but maybe im just wishful thinking 8P

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:17:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RULES - Skill Lvl. 0
Message-ID: <12414.1018957560@www34.gmx.net>

Hello Together,

I'm kind of new to actually play Megatraveller. Now I've encountered a
problem regarding 'Skill-Level-0-serves-as-Level-minus-1-Skills'. My Problem is :
If you have a Skill at Level 0 (e.g. Grav Vehicle-0), and this Skill 'serves
as' another Skill at Level minus 1 (Grav Vehicle serves as Grav Belt -1), at
which Level do I execute the 'served' Skill (Grav Belt)?
at : Level -1 (-> giving a negative DM of 1)?
at : Level 0 (-> minimum Skill-Level is allways 0)?
or not at all (-> there are no 'served' Skills for Level-0-Skills)?

Is there an official rule (which I did not find - sorry), or any other
sollutions?

Thank you, Sebastian

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>

Stephen Tempest posts:
>Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =20

Shouldnt the hull code be Z? I though Y was for 1,000,000 to 
1,999,999. Z was for anything above that. 

>MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
Architects fees? Anyone?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:51:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:51:14 2002
Subject: [TML] List outtage
Message-ID: <B8E1855D.3A929%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all,

Owing to an uncheduled outage on the part of my ISP, the mailing list hosted
at TravellerCentral.com were unavailable from about 11pm last night (PST)
until early this morning.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Tod
-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Marsh)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
Message-ID: <F58wAeRaNgEpTX5V3Gy00000309@hotmail.com>

I do not have my LBB in front of me; I thought the term was first used in 
Book 4 either with the illustration of the Forward Observer or in the Iron 
Mongery section. This would have well preceded Striker. Can anyone confirm 
this? (I agree it was prob. lifted from some fiction)


>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
>Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 16:17:04 +1000
>
>Dear Folks -
>
> >>Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> >>"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
> >>
> >> The origin is bugging me....
> >
> >It definitely goes back to at least the mid to late 80s. I thought that I
> >might have first seen it in "Striker", which would be around 1981 or so,
>but
> >I could be mistaken.
>
>You are not mistaken. It's mentioned in Striker Book 2, part of the
>"Integrating with Traveller" section.
>
>My bet is that it goes back to "Starship Troopers".
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014401c1e55a$62849d00$1f9e15ac@warrior>

hmm... good point... both the part about the PC scrapping for cash, and the
IYTU justification for it...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 12:58 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?


> On 04/15/02 at 11:31 AM,  Christopher Pratt <cdpratt@gatecom.com>
> said:
>
> >Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for those
> >kinds of speciallized skills... I mean how much does a Airliner pilot
> >make now days...
>
> Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
> skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
> They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
> thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
> in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
> living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.
>
> Eris
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
In-Reply-To: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075705.009f3cf0@mindspring.com>

At 07:23 AM 4/16/02 -0400, you wrote:

>I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
>protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
>Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
>flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
>never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
>_recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
>
>Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
>allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
>more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
>you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
>like you are too valuable to lose.

Hey, you earned it!

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
end of the world is fast approaching."
- Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:26:28 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8E09124.3A634%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204151758.ECZ05255@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>

At 02:16 PM 4/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>
> > In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> > starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> > stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
>
>Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right when the user no
>longer understands what's going on behind the 'curtain'.

Hell, for me that's today!  I can use my comp[uter, but for all I know, 
this beige box is actually home to a tribe of magic pixes.

There was a great SF story written years ago, might even have been golden 
age, about a bunch of scientists who build a time machine. They can grab 
one person from the future.  They get an ad executive.  Sure there are 
cancer curesm flying cars, etc, but he just knows how to use them, not how 
they work.

I still find it amazing and rather magical that this little bit of dreck 
will be read by people on the other side of the planet (hi Jens and Hans!) 
I sort of understand that it will be shuffled around by a lot of computers 
that do that sort of thing, but beyond that?  Nothing.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
In-Reply-To: <OF8A9C8510.72B94182-ON85256B9D.004D468D@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCMECKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

William

I did mail you off list ... but since you replied to the list, well, hey ...
;-)

> however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to actually be
> written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im new to XML
> and Xerces
> is not the best documented thing i have ever worked with. i was looking at
> maybe using the serializer to send a outPutStream through it. but it would
> seem to me that xerces should have a way of building this document out on
> the drive.

Try the following sort of thing -

try {
		myFileWriter = new FileWriter( "filename.xml");
		myFileWriter.flush();

		myDocumentImpl = new DocumentImpl();

		// ...



// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
		// Code to generate root element here, omitted for clarity


// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-


		// ...

		OutputFormat myOutputFormat = new OutputFormat( myDocumentImpl );
		myOutputFormat.setIndent( 4 );
		myOutputFormat.setIndenting( true );

		myOutputFormat.setDoctype( "filename.dtd" , "filename.dtd" );

		myXMLSerializer = new XMLSerializer( myOutputFormat );
		myXMLSerializer.setOutputCharStream( myFileWriter );


		// ...



// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
		// Generate the rest of the document, again omitted for clarity, then
write it


// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

		// ...

		myXMLSerializer.serialize( myDocumentImpl );
		myOutputFormat.flush();
	}
catch ( IOException ioe )
	{
	}

Hope this helps.

Andy B

---
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204161835500.25492-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
> Hell, for me that's today!  I can use my comp[uter, but for all I know, 
> this beige box is actually home to a tribe of magic pixes.
[snip]
> I still find it amazing and rather magical that this little bit of dreck 
> will be read by people on the other side of the planet (hi Jens and Hans!) 
> I sort of understand that it will be shuffled around by a lot of computers 
> that do that sort of thing, but beyond that?  Nothing.

The more I get to know about how things work, the more I think that they
are indeed powered by magic. And mathematics, which is almost the same
stuff. B-)

Trust me, you are better off not knowing how computer networks are built.
You might wonder how they do work at all... B-)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
Message-ID: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>







>I did mail you off list ... but since you replied to the list, well, hey
...
>;-)

Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
info.

Bill












From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RULES - Skill Lvl. 0
In-Reply-To: <12414.1018957560@www34.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAECLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hello

Originally, Skill Level - 0 meant no skill at all, and Skill Level - 1/2
meant some familiarity at a basic level, enough to avoid a penalty for
absolutely no ability or knowledge but not enough to actually grant a +DM.

Then it changed, so that the absence of the skill on a character sheet meant
no skill at all, and 0 meant some familiarity.

I rule that if you have Skill Level - 0 in something, then the next level
down would be no knowledge at all or the "absence" condition above.

Basically, Skill Level - 0 invokes no bonus and incurs no penalty. It does
not mean that you have Skill Level - 0 in a related skill, you're a
greenhorn with some learnin' is all.

Andy B.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:45:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:45:29 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCECLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> There was a great SF story written years ago, might even have been golden
> age, about a bunch of scientists who build a time machine. They can grab
> one person from the future.  They get an ad executive.  Sure there are
> cancer curesm flying cars, etc, but he just knows how to use
> them, not how they work.

Now that is what I call a grade A bad day ... pulling an ad exec from the
future - yeuch !

Andy B


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204161835500.25492-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <20020416155310.3125.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

> You might wonder how they do work at all... B-)

The place I used to work had an exceptionally
dimwitted programmer.  I mean, sitting listening to
his ideas for solving problems (the few he had) was an
exercise in humor at the least.  In any case, he would
work well into the night when code was due and his
stuff would eventually come close to working.  When we
found a bug, we looked for the code and it appeared
that the code was not doing what the system was doing.
 To this day, we swear he must've been sacrificing
chickens or virgins or virgin chickens or something to
get the stuff to work.

ObTrav:  There is a (Star Trek created?) stereotype of
the engineer who can fix anything but no one can tell
how he does it.  What other stereotypes are common in
your games?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:11:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:11:15 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
In-Reply-To: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <B8E19A80.35FF%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

on 4/16/02 4:23 AM, Jeff Zeitlin at editor@freelancetraveller.com wrote:

> I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
> protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
> Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
> flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
> never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
> _recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
> 
> Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
> allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
> more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
> you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
> like you are too valuable to lose.
> 

You deserve a lot more credit than you're giving yourself, Jeff.

I've submitted a couple of things, and Jeff not only posts them, he does an
wonderful job at layout, making them much easier to read than the raw text I
gave him (and probably making them a better read than they actually are).
That is a LOT of work, and it shows.  The whole site is great.

I'm giving you a standing ovation (well, not now, I'm typing - OK, there it
was, did you feel it?).

Thanks Jeff, you are the Fourth Force in Traveller support.

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:15:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:15:47 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <OF7A3367D5.83EB7401-ON85256B9D.0057F13F@pheaa.org>




<snip>
The place I used to work had an exceptionally
dimwitted programmer.  I mean, sitting listening to
his ideas for solving problems (the few he had) was an
exercise in humor at the least.
</snip>

Hmm you know i feel just like that right now. the Dimwitted Programmer 8(


>we swear he must've been sacrificing
>chickens or virgins or virgin chickens or something to
>get the stuff to work.

So if it works where can i get any of the above? or would a Groat do as
well?


OBTRAV:

The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
other.

Captain asks "What are you doing?"

New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"

Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P







From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:33:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:33:52 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <F20f7SMIaeYt2KoTstO00000c20@hotmail.com>

>From: "William Lane" <wlane@aessuccess.org>
>
>
>OBTRAV:
>
>The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
>Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
>engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
>Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
>other.
>
>Captain asks "What are you doing?"
>
>New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
>works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
>
>Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P

Jason Wright, the Merchant Ex-scout I play in Eris' Reaver's Deep game just 
raced into the engineering spaces when the gunner asked why the new engineer 
was taking apart the jump drive (since we were planning on lifting next day 
or so).

He raced in to find the Vargr hanging upside down with panels open and 
probes inserted, and the practical joking vargr with a flash bang for just 
such an occurance.

I'm wondering about her right now.  Current odds are that she'll make it 
through the first jump, but we'll space her during the second...

;-)

Thanks, Eris, for the Black-hole Money Pit which has seperated us from much 
money...

Greg

aka Rewock Mopit

Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:40:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:40:15 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204161638.EET02699@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Andrew MacLintock" says
>
>Jason Wright, the Merchant Ex-scout I play in Eris' Reaver's 
>Deep game just raced into the engineering spaces when the 
>gunner asked why the new engineer was taking apart the jump 
>drive (since we were planning on lifting next day 
>or so).
>
>He raced in to find the Vargr hanging upside down with 
>panels open and probes inserted, and the practical joking 
>vargr with a flash bang for just such an occurance.
>
>I'm wondering about her right now.  Current odds are that 
>she'll make it 
>through the first jump, but we'll space her during the 
>second...
>

Don't laugh.  When I was in Pershing (nuclear missiles, yes), 
we used to supplicate unto Dis, the God of Chaos, and ask for 
the Gift of Pre-Emptive Causality to take our bad luck away 
and bestow it upon the other missile platoons.

It worked.  Boy did it ever.  It got so bad that we were 
ordered to stop worshipping Dis.

Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from 
the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up 
during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and 
said, "Behold, Our God!".
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <200204161638.EET02699@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416131656.00b84c10@urbin.net>

At 12:38 PM 4/16/02 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
[snip]
>Don't laugh.  When I was in Pershing (nuclear missiles, yes),
>we used to supplicate unto Dis, the God of Chaos, and ask for
>the Gift of Pre-Emptive Causality to take our bad luck away
>and bestow it upon the other missile platoons.
>It worked.  Boy did it ever.  It got so bad that we were
>ordered to stop worshipping Dis.
>Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from
>the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
>again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up
>during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and
>said, "Behold, Our God!".

My keyboard is grateful that I wasn't drinking at the time.
I'm still chuckling though, that counts as a kill.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:27:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:27:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com> <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>

As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
something:

At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEJMDKAA.tml@downport.com>

I think that would be a fine use for a lot of those extra, windbag nobles we
have lying around the Imperium. Make them barristers, judges, justices,
notaries public or attorneys general! Do something to stop them cluttering
up the casinos and VIP lounges.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Texas Redshift

As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
something:

At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:43:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:43:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <200204161741.EEV03115@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Texas Redshift" says
>How litigous is the Imperium?
I'm not even sure there's an Imperial Supreme Court.  The 
individual governments seem to have their own laws and 
courts.  There is also the idea expressed in canon that this 
is a different age, where lawsuits across the Imperium do not 
happen.

There might be some legal agreements between various 
systems.  

But IMHO, the litigation level depends on the law level and 
the government type.

One of the first Traveller adventures I was in (1979), we 
were in a ground car accident - minor fender bender.  I 
hadn't gotten the idea down that there was Law Level Zero.

I got out of the car with the others, and asked the other 
driver if he had insurance.  He said, "No."  So I said to my 
friends, "I think we should wait for the police."  They 
laughed and said, "Hey stupid, there are no police."

So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the 
occupants of the other car without warning.  Then we went 
through their pockets for loose change.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018978883.2225.ajackson@ping>

Texas Redshift writes:
> As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
> something:
> 
> At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
> Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
> judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Depends on the world.  There are canon references to 'government of men, not
laws', which implies on the interstellar level it's not litigous per se, and
annoying the local judge with frivolous suits is probably a poor idea.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] CSC software
Message-ID: <200204161814.EEV08005@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I keep seeing references to this.  Is it still available?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416121821.009f23a0@mail.attbi.com>

	Here is a question for you technical types.
	Would a sandcaster actually work as well in the real world as it is 
portrayed in canon?  Also, would a sandcaster affect a particle beam at all?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:33:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:33:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F1633Sv0YKpDS7hx27k00013014@hotmail.com>

Perhaps contracts would provide that disputes would be resolved in a certain 
forum.  For instance, all disputes must be resolved in the Third District 
Court of Regina/Regina or by binding arbitration of the merchant guild or by 
Quickcourts, LIC.

If the Imperium operates as a functioning far-flung market economy, which 
seems to be the case, it must have some efficient method of dispute 
resolution.

>Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
>Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

Was there is an old JTAS article on Imperial justice?

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:35:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:35:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416121821.009f23a0@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018981937.7543.ajackson@ping>

Dale Gyles writes:
>      Here is a question for you technical types.
>      Would a sandcaster actually work as well in the real world as it is 
> portrayed in canon?  Also, would a sandcaster affect a particle beam at
> all? 

Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would work
reasonably well against just about any weapon.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:40:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:40:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <200204161837.EEX02352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Dale Gyles says
>
>	Here is a question for you technical types.
>	Would a sandcaster actually work as well in the real 
>world as it is portrayed in canon?  Also, would a sandcaster 
>affect a particle beam at all?
>
The spot size for the projected SBL is around a foot in 
diameter. The US Air Force is assuming that missiles will be 
painted or coated to optimize reflectivity, and they also 
anticipate that the missiles will spin to reduce the 
effectiveness of the laser.  "Sand" or some sort of 
particulate matter that interferes with the operation of the 
beam, would have to be held in close proximity to the ship.  
The beam has such a small spot size, that to effectively 
maintain a density of sand which would reduce the 
effectiveness of the beam means that you cannot allow it to 
disperse.  There are also plasmas that can be formed that 
might increase the reflectivity of the ship itself at the 
expense of increasing the ship''s signature.

The main way that the SBL intends to defeat reflective 
coatings, spinning, heavier construction, ablative coatings, 
and other countermeasures is to scale up the power.  In the 
case of missiles, they give good arguments as to why the 
countermeasures are, within an ability to hold the beam on 
target for four seconds, ineffective.  That is, with current 
tech, the coatings and spinning are already factored into the 
laser's design.  

As for a particle beam, the amount of material is so 
miniscule, and so thinly spread (the beam is probably 
neutrons), that sand would be useless.  These beams are also 
regarded as being more effective at penetrating armor (from 
the point of view of the Air Force) than a laser.  Both 
radiation damage and deep heating are expected to occur with 
a particle beam weapon.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CSC software
References: <200204161814.EEV08005@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC70CD.1060806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I keep seeing references to this.  Is it still available?

At Bits:

http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/BITS_website/Productsfolder/prod_INFV.htm

Mac only, but a sweet piece of software, if I do say so myself.

For some examples of designs see:

http://oscar.pharmacy.arizona.edu/csc_page.html

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <200204161837.EEX02352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018982859.1183.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> As for a particle beam, the amount of material is so 
> miniscule, and so thinly spread (the beam is probably 
> neutrons), that sand would be useless.  These beams are also 
> regarded as being more effective at penetrating armor (from 
> the point of view of the Air Force) than a laser.  Both 
> radiation damage and deep heating are expected to occur with 
> a particle beam weapon.

Erm.  Probably not neutrons, you can't accelerate them or aim them, though a
space-based particle beam would accelerate ions and then remove the charge,
resulting in a neutral particle beam (penetration would not be better than a
charged particle beam).  Problem with particle beams is they're very difficult
to focus.  Advantage is if you crank the per-particle energies high enough, the
levels of shielding possible on a realistic missile are pretty much irrelevant,
and you can radiation-cook the entire missile.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J A (Jim) Cooper)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
References: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c1e577$fb937b20$9c8c4218@mshome.net>

I would also like to add my congratulations to those of DB and JW. I have
used the sight often and repeatedly.
Keep up the good work.

Jim Cooper

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Zeitlin" <editor@freelancetraveller.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 4:23 AM
Subject: [TML] WOW! I'm massively flattered!


> I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
> protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
> Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
> flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
> never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
> _recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
>
> Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
> allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
> more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
> you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on;
people
> like you are too valuable to lose.
>
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
> Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
> http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
> http://www.freelancetraveller.com
> http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
> editor@freelancetraveller.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <200204161741.EEV03115@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC7D4F.7020102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> I got out of the car with the others, and asked the other 
> driver if he had insurance.  He said, "No."  So I said to my 
> friends, "I think we should wait for the police."  They 
> laughed and said, "Hey stupid, there are no police."
> 
> So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the 
> occupants of the other car without warning.  Then we went 
> through their pockets for loose change.

How long did your party survive before the local residents rounded you 
up and hung you?

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:37:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:37:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>

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In a message dated 15/04/02 17:23:52 GMT Daylight Time, 
firelock_ny@hotmail.com writes:


> One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
> only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
> than they pay out in claims.
> 
> If you are a large enough organization, like a Mega-Corp,
> then your insurable losses from any particular event should
> be low enough (as a percentage of your total income) that it
> will be a better option for you to absorb the losses as they
> occur rather than continuously pay out insurance premiums.
> You'll "self-insure", by keeping cash on hand enough to cover emergencies 
> and accidents.  This is a good way for a large
> enough company to do business, since this "cash on hand",
> while it's on hand, can be earning for the company while
> insurance premiums are gone.

I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Any company, no matter how large, that 
believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
disaster. Trivial accidents, like the loss of a starship or the destruction 
of a drilling platform, are by their nature unpredictable and that is one of 
the best reasons for having insurance. True a single trivial accident can be 
absorbed easily but what about ten or twenty close together?

How can money put aside to insure against risk earn money for the company? It 
has to be safe and readily available at all times. You can't simply leave it 
sitting in an account - AFAIK banks simply don't pay interest on huge sums. 
That leaves you with safe but easily accessible investments which may not 
earn as much as the new unobtanium extraction rig you could have built with 
the money. And how do we decide how much to put aside? We need a specialist 
department to calculate risk and analyse patterns to decide what risks we 
should cover and how much we should put aside. Why not make it easy for 
ourselves and use a specialist outside contractor to do all the hard work?

> 
> If a catastrophe happens that destroys more value of your
> megacorp assets than you would have been paying out in
> insurance premiums, then chances are a war caused it - and
> insurance companies are noted for not paying out claims
> on damage caused by acts of war anyway.

Not neccessarily so - let's say that my mega-corp discovers this fantastic 
new fire-retarding, insulation material. It's easy and cheap to make and can 
be cut and moulded to all sorts of shapes. We call it Sotsebsa and it sells 
like hot cakes. Unfortunately it soon turns out that our wonder product has 
some undocumented problems - mostly it's safe but if you breathe in its dust 
you develop a really nasty, debilitating and fatal lung disease. True high TL 
medicine can cure it in a snap but we mostly sold this stuff on moderate tech 
worlds and millions of people are claiming we've poisoned them.

Now the cost of an individual claim is trivial but the cost of millions is 
not, particularly as we're not going to accept responsibility anywhere in 
case it sets a precedent. What's more our investors can see they're returns 
dwindling, after all we're spending more and more money on defence and 
compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral - 
we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet all of 
them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet these costs. 
Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have previously paid 
them, saving us in the long run, money.

And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want absorb 
the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to perform some 
unplanned demolition on the local school district? 

> 
> So, you'll have two tiers of starship out there.  The
> small or independent operator, who buys insurance (since a
> single event will likely put him out of business otherwise).
> The large corp, which may self-insure (that is, put money
> aside to cover replacement, rather than pay out premiums).

As I said above it's not just a question of assets. Does the mega-corp just 
cover the replacement of its starship or does it cover the potential loss of 
an up-port, down-port, all the other ships in dock, assorted cats, dogs and 
groats plus the mental well-being of little old ladies? If it's the former 
how much money does the mega-corp put aside to cover the legal costs of 
fighting the claims of the other groups? Again it makes far better business 
sense to transfer the risk to someone else. 

> 
> If most of a starport's traffic is megacorp vessels,
> then that starport won't have the insurance industry
> involved as much with starport safety requirements.
> The megacorp may have to post a bond of some sort, but
> this bond may be a trivial formality if the megacorp
> is in bed with the local starport authority...which they
> probably will be, the megacorp likely built the bed,
> washed the linens and hired the nubile young bedwarmers.
> 
> The small independent operator may have to post a bond
> of sorts to gain access to a starport as well.  This bond
> may well be posted by the independent operator's insurance
> carrier on behalf of all the carrier's clients, with the
> insurance carrier requiring operators to meet certain
> safety guidelines to get coverage and access to the bond.
> 
> Walt Smith
> 

I agree there will be different standards for private operators and 
mega-corps but that doesn't mean that mega-corps will self-insure. My 
argument is that the job of assessing risk and betting that accidents won't 
happen is a specialised business. Mega-corps, although they might have 
insurance arms, are not in the business of risking that they won't have the 
funds needed to cover a disaster. It is far easier, and in the long run more 
cost effective, to transfer risk to someone else.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 15/04/02 17:23:52 GMT Daylight Time, firelock_ny@hotmail.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">One thing to remember about insurance companies:&nbsp; they are<BR>
only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums<BR>
than they pay out in claims.<BR>
<BR>
If you are a large enough organization, like a Mega-Corp,<BR>
then your insurable losses from any particular event should<BR>
be low enough (as a percentage of your total income) that it<BR>
will be a better option for you to absorb the losses as they<BR>
occur rather than continuously pay out insurance premiums.<BR>
You'll "self-insure", by keeping cash on hand enough to cover emergencies <BR>
and accidents.&nbsp; This is a good way for a large<BR>
enough company to do business, since this "cash on hand",<BR>
while it's on hand, can be earning for the company while<BR>
insurance premiums are gone.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Any company, no matter how large, that believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to disaster. Trivial accidents, like the loss of a starship or the destruction of a drilling platform, are by their nature unpredictable and that is one of the best reasons for having insurance. True a single trivial accident can be absorbed easily but what about ten or twenty close together?<BR>
<BR>
How can money put aside to insure against risk earn money for the company? It has to be safe and readily available at all times. You can't simply leave it sitting in an account - AFAIK banks simply don't pay interest on huge sums. That leaves you with safe but easily accessible investments which may not earn as much as the new unobtanium extraction rig you could have built with the money. And how do we decide how much to put aside? We need a specialist department to calculate risk and analyse patterns to decide what risks we should cover and how much we should put aside. Why not make it easy for ourselves and use a specialist outside contractor to do all the hard work?</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
If a catastrophe happens that destroys more value of your<BR>
megacorp assets than you would have been paying out in<BR>
insurance premiums, then chances are a war caused it - and<BR>
insurance companies are noted for not paying out claims<BR>
on damage caused by acts of war anyway.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Not neccessarily so - let's say that my mega-corp discovers this fantastic new fire-retarding, insulation material. It's easy and cheap to make and can be cut and moulded to all sorts of shapes. We call it Sotsebsa and it sells like hot cakes. Unfortunately it soon turns out that our wonder product has some undocumented problems - mostly it's safe but if you breathe in its dust you develop a really nasty, debilitating and fatal lung disease. True high TL medicine can cure it in a snap but we mostly sold this stuff on moderate tech worlds and millions of people are claiming we've poisoned them.<BR>
<BR>
Now the cost of an individual claim is trivial but the cost of millions is not, particularly as we're not going to accept responsibility anywhere in case it sets a precedent. What's more our investors can see they're returns dwindling, after all we're spending more and more money on defence and compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral - we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet all of them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet these costs. Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have previously paid them, saving us in the long run, money.<BR>
<BR>
And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want absorb the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to perform some unplanned demolition on the local school district? </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
So, you'll have two tiers of starship out there.&nbsp; The<BR>
small or independent operator, who buys insurance (since a<BR>
single event will likely put him out of business otherwise).<BR>
The large corp, which may self-insure (that is, put money<BR>
aside to cover replacement, rather than pay out premiums).</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">As I said above it's not just a question of assets. Does the mega-corp just cover the replacement of its starship or does it cover the potential loss of an up-port, down-port, all the other ships in dock, assorted cats, dogs and groats plus the mental well-being of little old ladies? If it's the former how much money does the mega-corp put aside to cover the legal costs of fighting the claims of the other groups? Again it makes far better business sense to transfer the risk to someone else. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
If most of a starport's traffic is megacorp vessels,<BR>
then that starport won't have the insurance industry<BR>
involved as much with starport safety requirements.<BR>
The megacorp may have to post a bond of some sort, but<BR>
this bond may be a trivial formality if the megacorp<BR>
is in bed with the local starport authority...which they<BR>
probably will be, the megacorp likely built the bed,<BR>
washed the linens and hired the nubile young bedwarmers.<BR>
<BR>
The small independent operator may have to post a bond<BR>
of sorts to gain access to a starport as well.&nbsp; This bond<BR>
may well be posted by the independent operator's insurance<BR>
carrier on behalf of all the carrier's clients, with the<BR>
insurance carrier requiring operators to meet certain<BR>
safety guidelines to get coverage and access to the bond.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I agree there will be different standards for private operators and mega-corps but that doesn't mean that mega-corps will self-insure. My argument is that the job of assessing risk and betting that accidents won't happen is a specialised business. Mega-corps, although they might have insurance arms, are not in the business of risking that they won't have the funds needed to cover a disaster. It is far easier, and in the long run more cost effective, to transfer risk to someone else.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:46:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:46:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC7F09.6050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
> skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
> They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
> thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
> in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
> living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.


Eris' methods:

PC's inherit fine, functioning starship. PC's overjoyed, one 
particularly stupid one makes dumb DUMB comments about how easy it'll be 
to compete with ship owners who have a mortgage to pay. (Gee I wonder 
who?;-)

Bad guys steal ship.

Space Patroooool to the Rescuuue! <sound of inspirational music, 
punctuated by large explosions>

Space Patrol "Here. We caught the hijackers and recovered your ship. 
Thank us!"

PC's "But there are large holes in our ship where there used to be a 
jump drive, a drive controller, and a safe in the ship's locker"

SP: "Well they didn't surrender peacefully. Thank us and don't ask 
questions."

PC's notice that SP officer is wearing secret police uniform."Thank you"

PC's go to bank and get large loan to get ship flying again.

<scrape scrape> Hold up cardboard signs "Will carry stuff for credits" 
just like all the other free traders...
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:48:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:48:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson asks
>
>How long did your party survive before the local residents 
>rounded you  up and hung you?
>
That was the problem.  They had friends.  We got back to 
town, and they heard about it.  Later that day, when we were 
strolling into the front foyer of the guest house were were 
staying at, three men stepped into the room and opened up on 
us with submachineguns.  Of the six people in our party, one 
survived.  The three attackers died, but the locals were 
steamed enough to shoot the survivor after hearing his tale.

It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
received.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 03:36:24PM -0400
References: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020416135830.A13448@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 03:36:24PM -0400, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have to disagree, I'm afraid.  Any company, no matter how large, that 
> believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
> disaster.

But that's what an insurance company does...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Whenever you walk by a computer and see someone using pico, be kind.
Pause for a second and remind yourself that: `There, but for the grace
of God, go I.'                                           --Harley Hahn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:12:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:12:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018987914.6966.ajackson@ping>

CHam628781@aol.com writes:
> In a message dated 15/04/02 17:23:52 GMT Daylight Time, 
> firelock_ny@hotmail.com writes:
> 
> > One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
> > only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
> > than they pay out in claims.

This isn't actually true.  It's enough if 'payments plus interest on payments'
exceeds average payout.

> I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Any company, no matter how large, that 
> believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
> disaster. Trivial accidents, like the loss of a starship or the destruction
>  of a drilling platform, are by their nature unpredictable and that is one
> of  the best reasons for having insurance. True a single trivial accident
> can be  absorbed easily but what about ten or twenty close together?

Beyond a certain point, there's no choice.  Also, businesses do sometimes fail.
> 
> How can money put aside to insure against risk earn money for the company?

You 'put it aside' in assets and investments.

> It  has to be safe and readily available at all times.

Nah.  Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the
resources and reputation of the company.
> compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral
> -  we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet
> all of  them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet
> these costs.  Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have
> previously paid  them, saving us in the long run, money.

Well, given that it's your fault, the insurance is likely to be reluctant to
pay anyway.
> 
> And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want
> absorb  the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to
> perform some  unplanned demolition on the local school district? 

Many real-world large companies do exactly that.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <200204162032.EFB01691@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

We could go on and discuss how reserves are handled, explain 
the concept of the "book of business", and talk about 
reinsurance.

IMTU I feel that ship insurance is handled much more like 
Lloyd's (with individuals teaming up to take on risk) rather 
than like the auto insurance model.  Starships seem so much 
more risky than automobiles, and the payout on loss is so 
high, that I can truly see it taking a form resembling 
organized gambling (which is, after all, what Lloyd's is 
running - the world's highest paying casino - hope you don't 
lose).

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <200204161638.EET02699@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416132832.009ffd60@mindspring.com>

At 12:38 PM 4/16/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Don't laugh.  When I was in Pershing (nuclear missiles, yes),
>we used to supplicate unto Dis, the God of Chaos, and ask for
>the Gift of Pre-Emptive Causality to take our bad luck away
>and bestow it upon the other missile platoons.

"Humans, humans pay your dues
Just two paths that you get to chose
Feed us right, or fight and lose
Gremlins everywhere."  - Leslie Fish

I knew mechanics who would, with all seriousness, leave out plates of milk 
for the Gremlins.  These units had the highest readiness rates in the brigade.

>It worked.  Boy did it ever.  It got so bad that we were
>ordered to stop worshipping Dis.

Does the phrase "freedom of religion" mean anything?  I was openly a 
Discordian while in the service.

>Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from
>the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
>again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up
>during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and
>said, "Behold, Our God!".

Actually, I would have thought it would be the Sergeant Major who had a 
problem with that.. you know how they hate competiton.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <15c.be25cf3.29ede8fa@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 20:59:44 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:


> > I have to disagree, I'm afraid.  Any company, no matter how large, that 
> > believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
> > disaster.
> 
> But that's what an insurance company does...
> 

No, insurance companies tend to insure themselves against risk as well. I 
believe there's even a well established branch of business that deals with it 
- can't remember the name though :(

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 20:59:44 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; I have to disagree, I'm afraid.&nbsp; Any company, no matter how large, that <BR>
&gt; believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to <BR>
&gt; disaster.<BR>
<BR>
But that's what an insurance company does...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
No, insurance companies tend to insure themselves against risk as well. I believe there's even a well established branch of business that deals with it - can't remember the name though :(<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <158.c6ba94a.29ede9ff@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 21:13:08 GMT Daylight Time, 
ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:


> > It  has to be safe and readily available at all times.
> 
> Nah.  Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the
> resources and reputation of the company.

Which is harder if you the people you are borrowing from know that you have 
no way of spreading the risk.

> > compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a 
> spiral
> > -  we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet
> > all of  them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet
> > these costs.  Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have
> > previously paid  them, saving us in the long run, money.
> 
> Well, given that it's your fault, the insurance is likely to be reluctant 
> to
> pay anyway.

Fault is not always relevant from an insurance companies point of view. It 
may be stuck with representing you whether it likes it or not.

> > 
> > And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want
> > absorb  the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to
> > perform some  unplanned demolition on the local school district? 
> 
> Many real-world large companies do exactly that.
> 
Not the sensible ones,

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 21:13:08 GMT Daylight Time, ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; It&nbsp; has to be safe and readily available at all times.<BR>
<BR>
Nah.&nbsp; Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the<BR>
resources and reputation of the company.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Which is harder if you the people you are borrowing from know that you have no way of spreading the risk.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral<BR>
&gt; -&nbsp; we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet<BR>
&gt; all of&nbsp; them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet<BR>
&gt; these costs.&nbsp; Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have<BR>
&gt; previously paid&nbsp; them, saving us in the long run, money.<BR>
<BR>
Well, given that it's your fault, the insurance is likely to be reluctant to<BR>
pay anyway.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Fault is not always relevant from an insurance companies point of view. It may be stuck with representing you whether it likes it or not.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; <BR>
&gt; And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want<BR>
&gt; absorb&nbsp; the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to<BR>
&gt; perform some&nbsp; unplanned demolition on the local school district? <BR>
<BR>
Many real-world large companies do exactly that.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
Not the sensible ones,<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:58:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:58:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <103.13d0e078.29edea3d@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 21:33:55 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com 
writes:


> We could go on and discuss how reserves are handled, explain 
> the concept of the "book of business", and talk about 
> reinsurance.
> 
> IMTU I feel that ship insurance is handled much more like 
> Lloyd's (with individuals teaming up to take on risk) rather 
> than like the auto insurance model.  Starships seem so much 
> more risky than automobiles, and the payout on loss is so 
> high, that I can truly see it taking a form resembling 
> organized gambling (which is, after all, what Lloyd's is 
> running - the world's highest paying casino - hope you don't 
> lose).
> 

I like Lloyds - there's nothing more satisfying than watching the complacent 
rich get their come-uppance ;)

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 21:33:55 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">We could go on and discuss how reserves are handled, explain <BR>
the concept of the "book of business", and talk about <BR>
reinsurance.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU I feel that ship insurance is handled much more like <BR>
Lloyd's (with individuals teaming up to take on risk) rather <BR>
than like the auto insurance model.&nbsp; Starships seem so much <BR>
more risky than automobiles, and the payout on loss is so <BR>
high, that I can truly see it taking a form resembling <BR>
organized gambling (which is, after all, what Lloyd's is <BR>
running - the world's highest paying casino - hope you don't <BR>
lose).<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I like Lloyds - there's nothing more satisfying than watching the complacent rich get their come-uppance ;)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:59:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:59:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com>

Anthony Jackson writes:
<Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would 
work
reasonably well against just about any weapon.>

Ok, what is the difference between sand and chaff?  I always that chaff was 
strips of foil cut to a particular length of the
wavelength of a radar, and the sand in a sandcaster used particles of the 
correct size to interact with the laser wavelength.  I thought they were 
the same process.

John T. Kwon writes:
<As for a particle beam, the amount of material is so
miniscule, and so thinly spread (the beam is probably
neutrons), that sand would be useless. These beams are also
regarded as being more effective at penetrating armor (from
the point of view of the Air Force) than a laser. Both
radiation damage and deep heating are expected to occur with
a particle beam weapon>

That makes sense. (disclaimer, I am not a physicist, nor do I play one on 
TV).  Now I wonder if an X-ray laser would functionally
equivelent to a neutral particle beam? (in game terms)

I remember that in CT that one of the subjects of Imperial Research 
Stations was suggested to be X-ray lasers.  I have read somewhere that we 
can make X-ray lasers now.  In my campaigns I told the players that they 
were restricted military technology,
with the same penalties as possessing nuclear weapons.  (you got the death 
penalty)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <20020416.165610.-108551.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Congratulations!  The award is well deserved.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"


On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 07:23:41 -0400 Jeff Zeitlin
<editor@freelancetraveller.com> writes:
> I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
> protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make 
> Freelance
> Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
> flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, 
> I
> never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to 
> be
> _recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
> 
> Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who 
> has
> allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your 
> work
> more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As 
> long as
> you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; 
> people
> like you are too valuable to lose.
> 
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
> Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller 
> Resource
> http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
> http://www.freelancetraveller.com
> http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
> editor@freelancetraveller.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

                


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:01:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:01:31 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com> <3CBC7F09.6050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CBC9112.90505@telocity.com>

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>> Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
>> skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
>> They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
>> thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
>> in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
>> living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.
>
>
>
> Eris' methods:
>
> PC's inherit fine, functioning starship. PC's overjoyed, one 
> particularly stupid one makes dumb DUMB comments about how easy it'll 
> be to compete with ship owners who have a mortgage to pay. (Gee I 
> wonder who?;-)
>
> Bad guys steal ship.
>
> Space Patroooool to the Rescuuue! <sound of inspirational music, 
> punctuated by large explosions>
>
> Space Patrol "Here. We caught the hijackers and recovered your ship. 
> Thank us!"
>
> PC's "But there are large holes in our ship where there used to be a 
> jump drive, a drive controller, and a safe in the ship's locker"
>
> SP: "Well they didn't surrender peacefully. Thank us and don't ask 
> questions."
>
> PC's notice that SP officer is wearing secret police uniform."Thank you"
>
> PC's go to bank and get large loan to get ship flying again.
>
> <scrape scrape> Hold up cardboard signs "Will carry stuff for credits" 
> just like all the other free traders...

Ah! Bruce has devined my methods...I will have to be more subtle when 
next I raid their treasury. <g>

Eris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:03:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:03:15 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <F37TW5k1Ed28kIN4MmX00001857@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.132856.6I9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
> In mail, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote
>
>>
>>Space is *big*. And they'll be visible the whole time.
>>
>>That's the problem. there's a whole lot of nothing, and even a small
>>ship stands out like a sore thumb.
>>
>
> So how does a starship of say, 400Dtons (ISTR 'Patrol Cruisers' were one 
> ship of choice for the discerning Ethically Challenged Merchant*) compare to 
> a fairly small asteroid?  Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in 
> near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near 
> misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a 
> single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?

We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.

> Is that a pirate out there, or a customs ship making sure you are behaving 
> yourself, or a sensor glitch, or an asteroid, or...

Asteroids aren't moving at hundreds of km/sec. And they aren't going to
be on intercept courses either. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:03:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:03:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20020416031009.2bda525e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20416.134013.8u0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
>> things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
>> buildings and the like.
>
> Thank you for hitting me with the "stupid" stick for the second time in
> the last days, Leonard  :-)

Not stupid. Just a bad case of "oops!".

Remember, you only embarassed yourself on the list. Think of all the
folks involved with Babylon 5 who made the ""million tons of spinning
metal" goof in the opening sequence (hint: a mass of *air* the size of
babylon 5 weighs more than a million tons :-)

And I'm rather suspicious of the masses David Weber gives for a lot of
the ships in the Honor Harrington stuff too.

Like I said, we don't have experience with this sort of thing so we
have no judgement for the numbers involved.

> I'll crawl back into my dark corner now.

Nah, if everyone who goofed did that who'd be posting? :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:04:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:04:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8e0f93f2f0d@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20416.134553.3z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>>todal forces are the same.
>
> A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the 
> size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity 
> in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal 
> gradient.

Actually, the tidal force varies *linearly* with the distance from the
center of mass of the body experiencing the tidal forces. Not *quite*
the same thing as varying with the size. 

As a good example, consider some folks in spacesuits tethered to a
ship. The forces they experience depend on the distance and direction
from the ship, not on the size of the ship.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:04:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:04:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> For Mercury (5.43), Venus (5.24) and Earth (5.52), yes.
> For Mars (3.93), any Jovian moon (some of which are considered "rocky", e.g.
> Io, at 3.53), and a few others, no.
> Personally, I'd reckon that density can vary considerably even for rocky
> worlds, say from 3.0 to nearly 7.8 (almost totally iron) or 8.5+ (almost
> totally nickel).

There are "clusters". And it's *really* unlikely that any sizable body
will have a density much above Mercury's. At least in a "normal"
system. The planets that form around supernova remnants are likely to
be very different.

>> So if there's any sort of safety factor built in to the "100 diameter"
>> rule, it'll work fine except in *really* oddball situations (say trying
>> to jump close to a *big* nickel-iron asteroid).
>
> So ... if I had a planet with an extremely large Ni-Fe core, and a higher
> mean density as a result, say towards 6.5 or 7.0, then the 100D rule would
> not be good enough. Another hazard for exploring uncharted systems, I guess.

Ain't gonna happen. The abundance of materials in the cloud of dust and
gas a system forms from means that anything with a substantial iron
core will have a lot more rocky material overlying it. 

The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.

>> The details *do* matter, because the forces at the *hull* of even a
>> small ship will *exceed* those from a planet at 100 diameters. That's a
>> *unavoidable*.
>
> Leonard, please don't emphasise words with asterisks. It just makes
> things harder to read and comes over patronising, even if that's not
> intended.

> *Try* *reading* *this* *sentence* *to* *see* *what* *I* *mean*.

I'm not going to quit indicating emphasis. And the alternatives are
asterisks or underlines and the asterisks are much easier to hit. 

Yes, it's harder to read a sentence where you individually emphasize
each word with them. But that's not what I'm doing.

As for patronizing, I'm not responsible for what you read into what I
write.

> Also, if we have to handwave away the tidal gradient due to the
> ship's hull, then I'd argue that the tidal gradient is not the
> principal factor in a misjump, no matter how well the figures fit.

Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
something that will be directly proportional to it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <OF7A3367D5.83EB7401-ON85256B9D.0057F13F@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBC9264.2050709@telocity.com>

William Lane wrote:

>OBTRAV:
>
>The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
>Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
>engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
>Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
>other.
>
>Captain asks "What are you doing?"
>
>New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
>works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
>
>Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P
>
Okay, Greg, how much you going to pay me not to pass *this* one along to 
Misha? <g>

The gang in the Reaver's Deep game just hired a Vargr engineer (played 
by Misha). Her first action aboard the ship was to hang from an overhead 
pipe with her head in the jump drive while she "checked it out."  I'll 
let Captain Jason (Greg) tell you what happened next...<g>

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
 <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416161824.01e88790@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:22 PM 4/16/2002, Texas Redshift wrote:
>At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
>Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
>judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?  Does the Imperium have a civil 
>court and what jurisdiction does it assert? Is jury trial available?  Are 
>judges elected? Appointed?

All of the following should be prefixed with the comment that I'm referring 
to My Traveller Universe, and so this may not hold for anyone else.  I 
don't know what the Canon has to say on the matter; while a lot has been 
written about the various Traveller militaries, I don't think anyone has 
ever written a supplement about lawyers and lawsuits in the Imperium.  ;-)

First of all, following a general legal principle IMTU, if the parties in 
any sort of legal action are located on the same world, then the legal 
action is resolved using that world's laws, judicial system, and 
practices.  Member worlds can basically do anything that they would like in 
this arena, subject to some basic guidelines (recognition of Imperial 
currency, validity of Imperial contracts, laws, charters, etc.) that worlds 
agree to implement as a condition of membership in the Imperium.  Outside 
of those guidelines, member worlds can (and do) have just about any sort of 
legal system, from the King's justice dispensed at sword-point to a complex 
web of liability, contract, and insurance laws that makes the 21st-century 
USA look non-litigious.

Only when the issue involves more than one world does Imperial law 
apply.  The Imperium has basic contract and liability law, written (as are 
most Imperial laws) primarily for the benefit of interstellar trade, 
commerce (and therefore primarily of benefit to business that operate on an 
interstellar scale).  IMTU, Imperial (interstellar) society is not very 
litigious - partially due to the nature of the society (which prefers an 
out-of-court settlement of some type), and partially due to the high cost 
of bringing an interstellar suit.  IMTU the Imperium has both civil and 
criminal courts, both administered by the nobility.  In general, the case 
is heard in the plaintiff's venue.

If they press onward, the case is heard by a judge (jury trials are not 
available).  In some cases, the judge is the appropriate noble in person; 
but for the most part, judges are appointed by the noble to act in his or 
her stead.  Judges serve at the noble's convenience, and can be replaced by 
him or her at any time (but usually are not, and serve until they 
retire).  Appeals are possible up the chain of fealty (all the way to the 
Emperor, at least in theory).  In the case where a judge is appointed, an 
appeal directly to the noble who appointed him or her is also possible.  In 
all cases, appeals are unlikely to succeed.  Jury trials are not available.

Most nobles tend to view cases that actually come before them with a bit of 
prejudice "which of the parties is being stubborn and unwilling to settle 
out of court?"  The reputations of the lawyers representing the parties, 
and (particularly where large corporations are involved) the reputations of 
the parties themselves often has a large influence on the outcome of the 
trial:  "Bernard Hault-Wugga?  Aren't you Baron Wishaggga's son?  OK, 
Bernie, exactly how has SuSAG wronged your client?  They did what?  Oh, of 
course; how dreadful.  MCr 3 in putative damages sounds good.  See you at 
the Solar Yacht Race next week?  Good, tell you father hello from me."  (an 
extreme example, but no doubt it happens).

For role-playing purposes, this lets the referee be as arbitrary as needed 
(and also gives the players incentive to find some other way - any other 
way - of settling differences).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:09:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:09:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018991242.5758.ajackson@ping>

Dale Gyles writes:
> Anthony Jackson writes:
> <Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would 
> work
> reasonably well against just about any weapon.>
> 
> Ok, what is the difference between sand and chaff?

The purpose of chaff is obscuring sensors.  The purpose of sand, as described
in Traveller, is stopping weapons fire.

>  I always that chaff was
>  strips of foil cut to a particular length of the
> wavelength of a radar, and the sand in a sandcaster used particles of the 
> correct size to interact with the laser wavelength.  I thought they were 
> the same process.

Well, there's a fairly significant difference, in that radar does not generally
have the power to burn through an inch of steel.
> 
> That makes sense. (disclaimer, I am not a physicist, nor do I play one on 
> TV).  Now I wonder if an X-ray laser would functionally
> equivelent to a neutral particle beam? (in game terms)

No, though a gamma ray laser would be fairly similar (somewhat different
penetration).
> 
> I remember that in CT that one of the subjects of Imperial Research 
> Stations was suggested to be X-ray lasers.  I have read somewhere that we 
> can make X-ray lasers now.  In my campaigns I told the players that they 
> were restricted military technology,
> with the same penalties as possessing nuclear weapons.  (you got the death 
> penalty)

I seem to recall something about X-ray lasers being developed, but they're not
exactly weapons-grade.  The old SDI people talked about bomb-pumped X-ray
lasers, a mechanism which AFAIK has never been successfully demonstrated, not
that this prevent people from using it in SF.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:02:50 +1000, Timothy Little
> <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:
>
>>JR Holmes wrote:
>>> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force
>>> upon itself
>>
>>You are.  This is very important in determining Roche's limit, for
>>example.
>
> I remain unconvinced in this regard.  "Roche's Limit is the distance
> from a planet inside which a satellite will be torn apart by tidal
> forces." (from http://www.cvc.org/astronomy/roche_limit.htm) or
> "Roche's Limit, which is the distance from a planet at which the
> planet's tidal force on a satellite (tending to stretch apart) is
> equal to the satellite's self-gravity (tending to hold it together)."
> (from http://utrao.as.utexas.edu/ast301/log/log22.html)
>
> As per the above, Roche's Limit is where these tidal forces (a
> tensional force) equal the compressional forces of an object's own
> gravity.  But this is in regard to the tidal forces exerted _with
> regard to another body_.  Without the other body, no tidal force.
>
> It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In another
> of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional and
> compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive me if
> I am interpreting you incorrectly).  I believe you are in error in
> this regard.  As per the above, the compressional forces are due to
> the object's self-gravity and only the tensional forces are due to the
> influence of another body and therefore are tidal forces.

No. Tidal forces are *away* from the center of the satellite along the
line joining it to the primary (ie the side closest to the primary is
pulled towards the primary, and the side opposite the primary is pulled
*away* from the primary. 

But the forces in the plane perpendicular to that line are *towards*
the center of the satellite. 

so if you were orbiting close to a neutron star in a space suit, your
feet would be pulled towards the star, your head would be pulled away
from it and your waist would be getting squeezed. 

Look at it like this. If you are orbiting, the center of your body is
moving at the right speed in the right direction. It's in freefall. 

But a point farther from the primary, if left to itself would be
traveling in a *different* orbit. With a different velocity. Ditto for
points closer to the primary, and for point "ahead" or "behind" the
center. And the same foes for point to the "left" and "right" of the
center.

The points closer to and farther from the primary would be moving *away*
from the center if they weren't attached. The ones ahead, behind and to
the sides would be moving *closer* to the center.

And that's essentially where the forces come from. Self gravity of the
body has nothing to do with it, and, in fact for a body that has to
worry about the Roche Limit, the forces *far* exceed its self gravity.

Get a copy of Dr. Robert Forward's book "Indistinguishable from Magic".
It's got a chapter on tidal forces, complete with diagrams and formulas.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <158.c6ba94a.29ede9ff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018991982.113.ajackson@ping>

CHam628781@aol.com writes:
> > Nah.  Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the
> > resources and reputation of the company.
> 
> Which is harder if you the people you are borrowing from know that you have
>  no way of spreading the risk.

Right, but the point is you don't need to have _ready_ cash.  You just need
assets which can be used to back a loan.
> 
> Fault is not always relevant from an insurance companies point of view. It 
> may be stuck with representing you whether it likes it or not.

Depends on how the insurance contract was written.

> > Many real-world large companies do exactly that.
> > 
> Not the sensible ones,

Many real-world companies are only insured for extremely large losses; you just
set the deductible high enough that it absorbs the vast majority of problems
directly.  Beyond a certain point, it's better for a company to risk going
bankrupt due to a major problem than pay out huge premiums (arguably,
bankruptcy law is itself a form of insurance).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:26:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:26:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Bruce Johnson asks
> 
>>How long did your party survive before the local residents 
>>rounded you  up and hung you?
>>
> 
> That was the problem.  They had friends.  We got back to 
> town, and they heard about it.  Later that day, when we were 
> strolling into the front foyer of the guest house were were 
> staying at, three men stepped into the room and opened up on 
> us with submachineguns.  Of the six people in our party, one 
> survived.  The three attackers died, but the locals were 
> steamed enough to shoot the survivor after hearing his tale.

I suspect the locals were *more* steamed about the firefights going on 
in public spaces. I'd wager that the 3 surviving members of that guys 
friends were fined heavily for the damage.

> It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
> principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
> friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
> received.

The real key to this is to understand what a LL0 world is like.

Probably quite polite and formal, since it's likely heavily armed...and 
the local citizenry is entirely likely to feel that maintaining public 
order is incumbent on all members of society, as well as enforcement, 
since LL0 worlds tend also to be low GOV worlds too.

A good one to spring on a bunch of unsuspecting PC's...land them 
someplace they're expecting to be Dodge City, and discover that it's 
anything but, that their 'uncivilized' behavior is quickly, but firmly 
corrected...permanently, if necessary...think a Heinleinian world of 
self-reliant, armed and polite strangers...
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBC9A4C.4000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

William Lane wrote:

> 
> Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
> everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
> info.

That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
XML to Cobol and back...

oBTRav> Captain finds engineer hip deep in the Jump drive controller 
with an exceptionally old-looking piece of hardware in his hands.

Captain: "Good lord, Scottie! That's a jump *tape* reader! What is that 
antique doing on my jump drive??"

Engineer: "Well Captain, we cannae find the right components to rrepair 
the drive controller. Urgvark" he points to a crazed looking Vargr 
assistant engineer, "...found this in a antique shop. We're tying it 
into the saircuit right now."

C: "But how will we control it? I haven't seen a jump tape in my life 
that wasn't in a museum!"

E:"Well Captain, I have a writing head from a holocorder here, we can 
connect it to the main computer, and have it translate the control 
instructions from the astrogation program to the correct patterns that a 
jump tape would have. It should work, in theory, sah. " Shouts "OK 
Urgvark! Give me some power..."

<SNAP> <Pop fsssssshhhhhh> "Turn it off! Turn it off!"

E: Through the smoke..."Ahh captain, we're going ta need some morrre 
time..."

C: weeps.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018993271.7515.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
> The real key to this is to understand what a LL0 world is like.
> 
> Probably quite polite and formal, since it's likely heavily armed...and 
> the local citizenry is entirely likely to feel that maintaining public 
> order is incumbent on all members of society, as well as enforcement, 
> since LL0 worlds tend also to be low GOV worlds too.

Well, the majority of LL0 worlds are very lightly populated as well, and quite
likely don't have much of anything recognizeable as 'public order' -- just some
isolated people.  Of course, then you have worlds like Efate.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:32 PM +1000 4/16/02, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
>(of radiation effects on fertility)
>>  Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in
>>  men, if you prefer)?
>
>Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
>the testis to ionising radiation.

Though it will need to be more pentrating since the ovaries are 
deeper in the body so it will depend on the kind of radiation? 
(Though it maybe that this is getting into to much details for rpgs 
that usualy feature "radiation").

>
>Larsen Whipsnade wrote :-
>>  GURPS, in Compendium II, handles this in the following manner.
>>  If a female has a lifetime dose of 250 rads, her offspring, and
>>  any problems they may have, are entirely at the GM's discretion.
>There probably won't be any offspring (permanent sterility in 75%).
>
>>  Realistic?  Yes.
>Nah, in GURPS it's usually an excuse for the GM to introduce Weird
>Mutant Powers (TM) <g>

I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the 
fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018978883.2225.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1018978883.2225.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330108b8e24c8654f3@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:41 AM -0700 4/16/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Texas Redshift writes:
>>  As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
>>  something:
>>
>>  At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
>>  Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
>>  judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
>
>Depends on the world.  There are canon references to 'government of men, not
>laws', which implies on the interstellar level it's not litigous per se, and
>annoying the local judge with frivolous suits is probably a poor idea.

That is consistent with a world where corporations conduct morally 
challenged acts without being continuously in court (to, at one 
extreme, being able to conduct trade wars on each other).

Also, if megacorps are as powerful as they are depicted, then should 
be able to avoid a situations where it is "easy" to sue them.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <20416.132856.6I9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.132856.6I9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330109b8e24d6388f8@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:28 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in
>  > near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near
>>  misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a
>>  single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?
>
>We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
>outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.

We are looking.  There is a program underway to catalog Earth 
crossing asteroids....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134553.3z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.134553.3z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010ab8e24dae9b06@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:45 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>>>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>>>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>>>todal forces are the same.
>>
>>  A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the
>>  size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity
>>  in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal
>>  gradient.
>
>Actually, the tidal force varies *linearly* with the distance from the
>center of mass of the body experiencing the tidal forces. Not *quite*
>the same thing as varying with the size.

The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also 
true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to 
another will depend on how far apart they are.

>
>As a good example, consider some folks in spacesuits tethered to a
>ship. The forces they experience depend on the distance and direction
>from the ship, not on the size of the ship.

True.  Though the difference in force between the guy in the space 
suit different parts of the ship will depend on the size of the ship.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <15c.be25cf3.29ede8fa@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 04:52:10PM -0400
References: <15c.be25cf3.29ede8fa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020416155914.C13552@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 04:52:10PM -0400, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> No, insurance companies tend to insure themselves against risk as well.

Yeah--from other insurance companies.  But there's no magic there: a
company as large as that collection of insurance companies can insure
itself.

And yes, if enough bad things happen at once the insurance system
would fail, just as a company would fail if it self-insured.

Generally, if you can afford it, self-insurance makes much more sense.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the people of
the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own
arms.                            --Samuel Adams, brewer and patriot

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020416081241.C25846@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.141048.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Both methane and ammonia will burn with oxygen. So you crack some water
>> (thermally or via electrolysis) and use the oxygen to burn the methane
>> and ammonia to N2, H20 & CO2. You condense the H20 and crack it to get
>> back the oxygen. The CO2 and N2 get either discrard or fed into the
>> life support system's atomosphere reprocessing section. 
>
> I don't see what I get from this.
>
> IMTU, there is only a small tank capable of holding LHyd with all the
> associated cryogenic systems, ultralow temperature pumps and such
> expensive stuff.  It primarily feeds the jump drive when entering
> jump.  The rest of the fuel space is designed to hold water which I
> can slowly refine using a fuel processor during jump.

If you are tanking from a body that has ammonia and/or methane in
addition to the water, you can shovel "ice" (or pump liquid
ammonia/methane) into a holding tank. It's not that hard to seperate
the methane, ammonia and water. And you'd need to be able to do that to
refuel from the colder iceballs anyway.

In the OTU, the tankage is for liquid hydrogen. If you are grabbing
water or whatever to "wilderness refuel" you have to extract and
liquefy the hydrogen before storing it in the tanks.

And BTW, you have to do more than just *cool* the hydrogen to get
liquid hydrogen. There are two forms of the hydrogen molecule. One has
the spins of the atoms parallel, the other has them opposing. 

One form is slightly more energetic than the other and left to itself,
will spontaneously convert to the lower energy form, releasing heat.
This takes place slowly. 

Unfortunately, it also releases enough heat to boil LH2! So you have to
use special catlysts to ensure that all the hydrogen is converted to
the low energy form before you put it in the tanks. Otherwise, the
spontaneous conversion will boil the tanks dry in a few hours. 

NASA had great fun with this problem until they found the catalysts
(fairly cheap, but they do add another step to the process of making
fuel). 

Because of this, converting water to LH2 on the fly isn't going to work
for stuff like the jump drive. You need the required fuel stored *as*
LH2 before you start.

> So the limit on how much fuel I can hold is how much oxygen is
> available to bind the hydrogen into water for my large (and cheap)
> tanks.  Discarding CO2 from burning methane is hence worse than just
> throwing away the methane.  I might extract some nitrogen from the
> ammonia to replenish any atmosphere losses, but that's about it.

No, because you aren't getting *hydrogen* when you refuel from an
iceball, just when you refuel by scooping a gas giant. And in that
case, you'll need a *lot* of oxygen, and need it fast. Check out how
much space *8* tons (mass) of liquid oxygen takes up. Because you'll
need 8 tons of oxygen for every ton of hydrogen. Remember, it takes
*nine* tons of water to produce *one* ton of hydrogen. And you'll have
to have to have *seperate* tanks for the 9 tons of water, the 8 tons of
LOX, and the 1 ton of LH2.

Storing *just* LH2 is a *lot* simpler.

When you refuel from an iceball you are getting one of the following:

Water
Water and ammonia
Water, ammonia and methane

So, as I said, you extract the oxygen from the water and store the
hydrogen.

You then use the extracted oxygen to convert the ammonia into
nitrogen and water. You keep as much of the nitrogen as you want, and
discard the rest. The water gets converted to LH2 and oxygen (ie you
*recover* the oxygen you extracted from the water you "mined").

Next, you use the oxygen (still not touching your original oxygen
supplies on board the ship) to convert the methane to CO2 and water.
The water gets processed as before, giving hydogen and oxygen.

You can either discard the CO2, *or* you can feed it thru the section
of your life support system that cracks CO2 into carbon and oxygen. And
yes, given a fusion power plant, as well as cryogenic gear, this is a
reasonable way of dealing with CO2 on board a ship. 

Matter of fact, odds are that part of the "filters" in the life support
system ammount to condensing excess water out of the air (there will
*always* be excess water as we produce it from the hydrogen in our food
and the oxygen we breathe). 

Next, the air will be flash heated (with or without a catalyst) to burn
all organic gases. Finally, a catalyst will be used to break down any
nitrogen oxides formed by the flash heating, and the O2 and N2 will be
put back in circulation, while the CO2 will be cracked into carbon and
oxygen. And actual chemical filters will deal with any remaining
contaminants (traces of stuff like chlorine & sulfur compounds, etc)

It's possible that smaller ships (and auxilluary craft) will just use
chemical filters to extract water vapor, CO2, and other contaminants).
LiOH to extract CO2, Various other things to extract water vapor, and
activated charcoal to get (most) of the other trace gases. 

But those will need changing and require "recharging" (basicly you heat
them to drive off the water/CO2/whatever).

Anyway, ships will be able to deal with converting CO2 to carbon and
oxygen. Getting rid of the carbon from processing a lot of methane will
be a major pain though. Some poor crewbeing will probably have to
either "shovel" what amounts to soot out of the gear and haul it to an
airlock to dump, or maybe (if you process stuff a bit differently) chop
slabs of graphite out of the processor. And, again dump them.

So methane would be something you might *not* want to process. But
there will be times when it's worth the hassle. 

Oh yeah, actually, the odds are you'd seperate the methane *first*,
simply because it will be the first component of the mix to turn into a
gas.

         melts   boils
         ------  ------
methane	 -182.4  -161.5
ammonia   -77.4   -33.3
water       0     100

So, as you heat the mix, first the methane liquefies, then it
vaporizes. You can discard it, or use oxygen to process it. Or, if you
do this a lit, you might have gear set up to directly crack the methane
into hydogen and carbon.

Next the ammonia liquefies and then vaporizes. And then when the water
melts, it would get dissolved in the water (great if you are
electrolyzing water, not so great otherwise). 

Again, you can either "burn" the ammonia with oxygen (I use quotes
because there are catalysts that'll make it happen at much lower temps)
or you might be equiped to "crack" it into nitrogen and hydrogen.
Cracking won't work nearly as well though, since both components are
gasses. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:08:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:08:41 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020416155310.3125.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20416.150551.5I5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> ObTrav:  There is a (Star Trek created?) stereotype of
> the engineer who can fix anything but no one can tell
> how he does it.  What other stereotypes are common in
> your games?

The "engineer as wizard" stereotype has existed *at least* as long as
widespread use of steam engines. And some would argue it goes back to
the old seige engineers of medieval and Roman times.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:09:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:09:19 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20416.150857.9F1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 02:16 PM 4/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>>
>> > In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
>> > starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
>> > stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
>>
>>Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right when the user no
>>longer understands what's going on behind the 'curtain'.
>
> Hell, for me that's today!  I can use my comp[uter, but for all I know, 
> this beige box is actually home to a tribe of magic pixes.

(uh-oh, he's beginning to catch on! :-)

> I still find it amazing and rather magical that this little bit of dreck 
> will be read by people on the other side of the planet (hi Jens and Hans!) 
> I sort of understand that it will be shuffled around by a lot of computers 
> that do that sort of thing, but beyond that?  Nothing.

It's actually *not* all that hard to understand. Really. But it
involves paying more attention to *details* than most folks care to. 

> "Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
>   with sex." - Fry, Futurama

Hmm. Must be looking at the wrong sites. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <OF7A3367D5.83EB7401-ON85256B9D.0057F13F@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <20416.151127.3N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> OBTRAV:
>
> The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
> Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
> engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
> Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
> other.
>
> Captain asks "What are you doing?"
>
> New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
> works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
>
> Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P

An *intelligent* captain will just chalk it up to "personal quirks" as
long as the job gets done. And if things seem to be working better than
he'd expect, he may wind up asking the engineer for more info about
Jabobo. <g>

If it works, don't knock it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com> <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net> <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020417081359.A28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> "Roche's Limit, which is the distance from a planet at which the
> planet's tidal force on a satellite (tending to stretch apart) is
> equal to the satellite's self-gravity (tending to hold it together)."
> (from http://utrao.as.utexas.edu/ast301/log/log22.html)

Anaother way to say the same thing is "where the net tidal gradient
becomes tensional in at least one direction".  Self-gravity *is* a
tidal force.


> As per the above, Roche's Limit is where these tidal forces (a
> tensional force) equal the compressional forces of an object's own
> gravity.

The compressional forces of an object's own gravity *are* tidal
gradients.  Roche's limit is where the sum of the external and
internal tides cancel (in one direction) for a body of given
composition.


> It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In
> another of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional
> and compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive
> me if I am interpreting you incorrectly).

Yes.  Consider a near-massless spaceship somewhere near the Earth,
with bow pointing directly outward from it.  A point on the bow is a
bit further from the Earth than the center, so the gravitational
attraction toward Earth's center is weaker.  Likewise, the
gravitational attraction is stronger at the stern.  This is the
tensional aspect of the tidal gradient.

Now consider points on the port and starboard.  Both feel the same
magnitude of gravitational acceleration, but the *direction* is
different.  The vector difference between the two results in an inward
(compressional) force.  Likewise for the "top" and "bottom" of the
ship.

So the external tides exert a compression force as well as a tensional
one.


Now consider a spacecraft with significant density.  In this case, the
same argument applies to give a tensional gradient (due to the Earth),
but now you have to add the self-gravity.  The bow experiences a weak
Earthward acceleration due to self-gravity, and the stern experiences
an outward force.  This sums with the Earth's tidal force to give a
result that could be either tensional or compressional, depending on
how close to Earth the starship is and on what it's density is.
(Compressional far from the Earth, possibly tensional closer in).

The top and bottom of the ship are subject to a sum of compressional
forces alone.


The actual mathematics is much simpler in many regards than the
example, but the result is the same.  The tidal gradient at any given
point is expressed as a matrix, with trace equal to the density at the
point in question.  The eigenvalues and eigenvectors of the matrix
tell you the magnitude and directions of the forces due to the
gradient.  Even a pebble in otherwise completely empty space has tidal
gradients inside and out, and those gradients are not appreciably
weaker than the tidal gradients around and within the Moon.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020417082001.B28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.

Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
a nitpick.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3cbf94aa.16351970@post.demon.co.uk>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

>That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
>wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
>convincing opposing argument:-)

What if you're charged by n+1 people with pointy sticks, where n is
the number of bullets you're carrying?

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:34:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3CBC7D4F.7020102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200204161741.EEV03115@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416183650.00b8f070@urbin.net>

At 12:36 PM 4/16/02 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>John T. Kwon wrote:
>>I got out of the car with the others, and asked the other driver if he 
>>had insurance.  He said, "No."  So I said to my friends, "I think we 
>>should wait for the police."  They laughed and said, "Hey stupid, there 
>>are no police."
>>So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the occupants of the 
>>other car without warning.  Then we went through their pockets for loose 
>>change.
>How long did your party survive before the local residents rounded you up 
>and hung you?

That's why he should have checked for witnesses first.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:35:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:35:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>

Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:

>>Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =3D20
>
>Shouldnt the hull code be Z? I though Y was for 1,000,000 to=20
>1,999,999. Z was for anything above that.=20

Y is for 1,000,000 to "the next stated level" - but there isn't one,
so I'm assuming it's just "over a million tons".  Z is "Reserved".

>>MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
>Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
>Architects fees? Anyone?

Standard cost.  If you *really* want to start mass-producing these
things, you scare me ;-)

I didn't include the architect's fees, but they'd be TCr 376,770.  The
kind of contract every naval architect dreams of.

Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:39:03 2002
Subject: Engineer Voodoo (was: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?)
References: <20416.151127.3N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CBCA7CB.11BDF34@premier.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > OBTRAV:
> >
> > The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
> > Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
> > engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
> > Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
> > other.
> >
> > Captain asks "What are you doing?"
> >
> > New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
> > works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
> >
> > Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P
> 
> An *intelligent* captain will just chalk it up to "personal quirks" as
> long as the job gets done. And if things seem to be working better than
> he'd expect, he may wind up asking the engineer for more info about
> Jabobo. <g>

Actually, given that "Voodoo is an animist faith. That is, objects and
natural phenomena are believed to possess holy significance, to possess
a soul [*]," this seems a not-unreasonable belief system for an engineer
to have, assuming that additional syncretism has added technology to the
Voodoo gumbo.

Imagine if the engineer's version of Voodoo included the Evangelicals'
drive to proselytize:

"Have you accepted Jabobo as your personal Loa?" ;-)

[*] Quoted from the following Web site:

http://www.swagga.com/voodoo.htm

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3cbf94aa.16351970@post.demon.co.uk>; from tml@stempest.demon.co.uk on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:20:42PM +0000
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net> <3cbf94aa.16351970@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020416164940.A14019@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:20:42PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> 
> >That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
> >wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
> >convincing opposing argument:-)
> 
> What if you're charged by n+1 people with pointy sticks, where n is
> the number of bullets you're carrying?

That's why the steel.  And if the number of people involved >> n/2,
then I'm probably going to be running anyway:-)

Of course, all this is silly because I've never been attacked and
don't typically engage in activities which increase my risk of being
attacked.  I'm a rather quiet sort.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20416.141048.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020416081241.C25846@freeman.little-possums.net> <20416.141048.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> And BTW, you have to do more than just *cool* the hydrogen to get
> liquid hydrogen. There are two forms of the hydrogen molecule. One has
> the spins of the atoms parallel, the other has them opposing. 

I'm quite aware of that.  I'm also aware of various maethods for
dealing with it at *our* tech level, let alone TL10.


> Because of this, converting water to LH2 on the fly isn't going to
> work for stuff like the jump drive.

That's why I said that there is an auxiliary fuel tank for the jump
drive.  Besides, does it say anywhere that the jump drive actually
needs *liquid* hydrogen, or is that just how it is stored prior to
use?

IMTU, it needs pure hydrogen.  The physical form is preferably ionised
at a temperature of a few hundred thousand degrees, but it needs a
*lot*, *fast*.  It's a bit hard to store tonnes of 100+ kK plasma for
any length of time, and LH2 is a nice compact way to hold pure
hydrogen ready for injection.


> You need the required fuel stored *as* LH2 before you start.

Even if this was true, that's exactly what the canonical "fuel
processor" does.  It converts impure hydrogen and hydrogen compounds
(such as water) into LH2.  It even gives a rate at which it produces
the stuff.  Do you exclude fuel processors from your Traveller
universe?  That's what it sounds like.


> Check out how much space *8* tons (mass) of liquid oxygen takes up.

I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?

When I scoop ice from an iceball, I get lots of hydrogen in the form
of water.  Water is a more compact way to store hydrogen than LH2.  So
I *keep* the water.  I run the ammonia, methane, or some more water
through the fuel processor to fill up the smaller LH2 tanks (possibly
extracting some nitrogen for life support), throw away all the
methane, and either keep or throw away the ammonia.


> And you'll have to have to have *seperate* tanks for the 9 tons of
> water, the 8 tons of LOX, and the 1 ton of LH2.

No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.

The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.


> Oh yeah, actually, the odds are you'd seperate the methane *first*,
> simply because it will be the first component of the mix to turn
> into a gas.

Yep, mainly so I can get rid of it before putting it in the tanks at
all.  Ammonia I can deal with later, since I don't need highly
expensive long-term cryogenic tanks to hold ammonia solution.  I can
separate it later if I want.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Refining Fuel
Message-ID: <200204162252.EFF02983@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ok, so can I put solid rock in the refiner?

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%
7B1F54AEED-A34B-411B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com> <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020417085805.D28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Of course :)

It varies with which rules, time period, and dataset you use, but my
figures are on the order of 100 PCr/year.  Never seen a 'P' prefix
used before?  10^15, in case anyone was wondering ;)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:59:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:59:38 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020416190105.CB76627A2E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020416155253.00a4d980@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:38:41 -0400, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

>Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from
>the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
>again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up
>during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and
>said, "Behold, Our God!".

"Glory be to the Bomb, and to the Holy Fallout, as it was in the Beginning."

Put me down as another half-kill.  (I rarely drink at the keyboard.  Not 
while reading THIS list, anyway.)

It's sure nice to find out what sort of people were guarding our nuclear 
deterrent, back in the bad old days.



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:01:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:01:09 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/16/02 3:50 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
> over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
> LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
> unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
> paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.
> 
> The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
> volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
> water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
> upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.
> 

Just curious, but what about storing H2 as hydrides?  Don't you get a higher
density?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:06:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:06:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Damn mind rapers
Message-ID: <20020416230522.61559.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

<Arlin J. Schofield- OC>
P2GM - Hey John, what is the general level of public
acceptance of psi's. I'm sure the military characters
who have been in action against the zho's (like Arlin)
wont be to comfartable with a psi around. I think
unless the public don't mind psi's that those
discussing them should at least try to be quiet ;)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <200204161837.EEX02352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.155109.2O0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The spot size for the projected SBL is around a foot in 
> diameter. The US Air Force is assuming that missiles will be 
> painted or coated to optimize reflectivity, and they also 
> anticipate that the missiles will spin to reduce the 
> effectiveness of the laser.  "Sand" or some sort of 
> particulate matter that interferes with the operation of the 
> beam, would have to be held in close proximity to the ship.  
> The beam has such a small spot size, that to effectively 
> maintain a density of sand which would reduce the 
> effectiveness of the beam means that you cannot allow it to 
> disperse.  There are also plasmas that can be formed that 
> might increase the reflectivity of the ship itself at the 
> expense of increasing the ship''s signature.

Check for old discussions of how sand probably works.

A summary is:

the particles are spheres, and highly refactive at laser wavelengths.
Thus a portion of the beam will be refelected back at the source
(helping to blind sensors) before absorbed beam energy can disrupt the
particle. And the portion of the energy that is transmitted is
defocused. 

The particles take a fair amount of energy to melt. While molten they
continue to retro-reflect part of the beam and disperse the rest.

They take even more energy to vaporize and form a plasma easily. The
plasma is opaque to laser energy and absorbs even *more* of the beam
energy.

So yet get some sensor blinding for free, and the plasma generation
makes the required sand density much lower than would otherwise be
required. 

This would also make for nice visual effects as beams hit clouds of sand.

> The main way that the SBL intends to defeat reflective 
> coatings, spinning, heavier construction, ablative coatings, 
> and other countermeasures is to scale up the power.  In the 
> case of missiles, they give good arguments as to why the 
> countermeasures are, within an ability to hold the beam on 
> target for four seconds, ineffective.  That is, with current 
> tech, the coatings and spinning are already factored into the 
> laser's design.  

Well, in space, outside of low orbit, stuff like sand and "smoke" tend
to be rather more effective, because they don't get left behind. 

They don't make it impossible to zap the target, just harder.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:08:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:08:35 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20416.152426.1u5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:36:12AM +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
>> 
>> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
>> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
>> to see is a cloud of dust ;)
>
> Unless he's the faster...
>
> That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
> wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
> convincing opposing argument:-)

Perhaps you've heard the story about two hikers confronted by a bear.
One starts running and the oother follows. The second gasps why "why
are you running, the bear can outrun us"

The first replies "I don't need to outriun *him*. Just *you*!"

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:09:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:09:14 2002
Subject: [TML] CT/Book 5 question
In-Reply-To: <200204160206.EDP04153@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.152658.1R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> OK.  Actually a Book 5 question.  Ship has partial 
> streamlining. Under the rules, it can do gas giant 
> refueling.  If it can move through an upper atmosphere like 
> that (presumably at some velocity - after all, we don't want 
> to spiral in), can you land such a ship on a world with a 
> standard atmosphere?

As I recall, partial streamlining does allow landing on such a world.

> How does an air/raft do it?  1-G acceleration.  You're riding 
> in a vehicle about the size of a HMMWV with the top down.

> Feel that wind in your hair...

Not necessarily. It can simply climb vertically (and slowly) until it
is out of the atmosphere. Then it can accerlerate until it reaches
orbital *velocity. 

Remember, it's *much* easier to reach orbital *altitude* than orbital
velocity. That's the principle behind several weapons for taking out
low altitude satellites. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:09:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:09:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.153558.2c9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
> something:
>
> At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
> Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
> judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
>
> Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
> Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?
>
> What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?

I don't think canon covers it. But given some of the things that canon
sources have going on, I suspect that "frivilous" lawsuits are
discouraged in some manner. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:11:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:11:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417085805.D28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018998647.1051.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?
> 
> Of course :)
> 
> It varies with which rules, time period, and dataset you use, but my
> figures are on the order of 100 PCr/year.  Never seen a 'P' prefix
> used before?  10^15, in case anyone was wondering ;)

Hm...my figure seems to be at 103PCr/year, which is well within the margin of
error.  Of course, there's a fairly significant problem with the old Atlas of
the Imperium data -- there's only around 9,000 imperial worlds, not the 11,000
there's supposed to be.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018998784.5627.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
> over

Which is, based on the existence of drop tanks, equal to the total fuel
requirement of jump.  Water tanks are mostly useful for jumping _twice_.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:14:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:14:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Indistinguishable from Magic
In-Reply-To: <20020416190105.CB76627A2E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020416160033.00a50b10@mailhost.efn.org>

(was: How many credits is that?)

For a while now, I've taken Clarke's Law to apply all the way back to the 
first simple machines.  To someone who's never seen one before, even a 
lever is magical:  you push DOWN, and a much heavier thing on the other end 
goes UP, easily.  Thus, any technology that exceeds the capabilities of the 
unaided human body (strength, sight, speed, etc) is "magic."

It can even be argued that knowing (or thinking one knows) how something 
works does not make it less magic.  Surely the hypothetical medieval wizard 
would know as much about the alchemical and astrological correspondences, 
sacred geometry, the names of angels, and other important data about his 
profession as a telecom engineer does about phones and networks and 
switches.  And each would be equally convinced the other was practicing 
black witchcraft.

And I note that people still leave out tributes to faeries - only now they 
call them gremlins or Greys, to name but two of the new forms.

--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:16:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:16:55 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020416231354.82331.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's
going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

What, because you have dust in your veins instead of
blood?  ;-)
END QUOTE

No, because I am a vampire from buffy:the vampire
slayer ;P

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020416231641.82811.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Unless he's the faster...

That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy
stick all he wants.  But my lead and steel can, I
feel, come up with quite a convincing opposing
argument:-)
END QUOTE

Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
pointy stick :)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:18:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:18:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204150043.RAA22864@molly.iii.com> from "Anthony Jackson" at Apr 14, 2002 05:43:03 PM
Message-ID: <200204162126.g3GLQsn00991@localhost.uia.net>

> Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
> network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
> just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.
> 
> In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
> a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
> wormholes have to share a reference frame.

I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20416.155109.2O0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018999846.3010.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
> 
> The particles take a fair amount of energy to melt. While molten they
> continue to retro-reflect part of the beam and disperse the rest.
> 
> They take even more energy to vaporize and form a plasma easily. The
> plasma is opaque to laser energy and absorbs even *more* of the beam
> energy.

Now, let's consider a typical example: a typical TTL13 X-ray laser.  It focuses
to a beam 1 cm wide, with an unclear duration; we'll assume 100 milliseconds,
as that will avoid significant problems with the beam impact point moving.  The
total beam energy is on the order of 400 megajoules, and has a damage value
(T4) of 50.

The target is a 200 dton sphere, with a cross-section of 240 square meters. 
One can at AV 50 is 320 kilograms.  Since the beam has a cross-section of
0.0001 m^2, it actually strikes 0.13 grams of sand.

As it happens, X-rays can go through that much material without even worrying
about getting it out of the way.  Ignoring that, if we assume the 'sand' is
synthetic diamond, it has a heat of vaporization of 8 kilojoules.  Further
ignoring the fact that X-rays don't generally reflect very well, through a
variety of tricks we'll argue that the actual energy of vaporization is 1
megajoule (125x greater).

399 megajoules to go.  Well, perhaps the vapor is opaque.  Let's add another
megajoule to the vapor, heating it up to some obscene temperature, and assume
that 90% of the absorbed energy is lost to immediate reradiation.  The
remaining 100 kilojoules causes the gas in the path of the laser to explode
outwards, with an average velocity of 39 kilometers per second.  1 microsecond
later, the plasma has had its density drop by a factor of around 10, which
should allow the X-rays to shine through.  Since the power output is 4
megajoules per microsecond, the total energy absorbed by the sand is maybe 5
megajoules.  Gee, only another 80x increase in efficiency and we'll actually
stop the beam.

> Well, in space, outside of low orbit, stuff like sand and "smoke" tend
> to be rather more effective, because they don't get left behind. 

Well, if you don't use any thrust and use gravetics to prevent the stuff from
wandering, sure.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204162126.g3GLQsn00991@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019000154.7419.ajackson@ping>

jimv writes:

> I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim

All methods of using FTL to accomplish time travel rely on the fact that for
any form of FTL movement, there exists a reference frame where in some
direction or another, the FTL movement appears to be going backwards in time. 
Therefore, you move, shift velocity to a different reference frame, and then
reverse the trip.  The trip took positive time according to the ship's onboard
time, but negative time according to an outside observer.

If you require that all FTL movement occur within a single reference frame, you
can't change reference frames to make the round trip, and total trip time
always remains positive, though different reference frames will disagree as to
how the time requirement was divided up, and may claim that certain sections of
the trip took negative amounts of time.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damn mind rapers
Message-ID: <200204162344.EFH02038@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Psis are a military and internal security necessity.  I think 
that the whole B5 attitude towards them was pretty good.  
IBIS makes covert use of them.  The military intel people 
make use of them.  For some reason Vilani and Solomani aren't 
any good at PK or teleportation. That's something the Zhodani 
are good at.  Of course, it's not secret in the Zhodani 
Consulate - it's a way of life.

People do tend to dislike them, but that's the popular view.  
Many corporations use telepaths to verify truth and intent 
when signing major contracts.

Then again, they aren't common.  IBIS has a special division 
that trains them.  Rumor has it that they *are* the Psionics 
Institute.  One more reason that people don't trust the 
trained ones.  Untrained, well, some people can't help the 
way they were born.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
Message-ID: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see 
<http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file 
their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).

Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and 
although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the 
end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned 
for a financial year until after you've earned it.

Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
timetable works??

[ BTW, I'm only asking for a quick reply to a query. Anything further 
(anti-IRS rants, full 20-page technical descriptions of the US economy, 
etc etc) probably should go to the discussion list.  %^P  ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <3CBD64AF.31847.709971@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 20:32, Robert O'Connor wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
> (of radiation effects on fertility)
> > Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
> > men, if you prefer)?
> 
> Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
> the testis to ionising radiation.

How penetrating is ionising radiation in general? If it's not very 
penetrating there should be some adjustment made to allow for the 
ovaries being protected by being inside, rather than outside the torso.
 

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:04:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:04:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20416.134013.8u0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020416031009.2bda525e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CBD64AF.11090.709A27@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 13:40, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> And I'm rather suspicious of the masses David Weber gives for a lot of
> the ships in the Honor Harrington stuff too.

I'm rather suspicious of a lot of things in those books. As for the 
mass, I think he used a square when he should have used a cube law.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:05:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:05:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
In-Reply-To: <OFF290291A.CB37BC25-ONCA256B9D.0017EFD0@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3CBD64AF.28128.7098A2@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 16:17, david.d.jaques-watson@centrel wrote:

> You are not mistaken. It's mentioned in Striker Book 2, part of the 
> "Integrating with Traveller" section.
> 
> My bet is that it goes back to "Starship Troopers".

I'm fairly sure it doesn't, because in ST the navy didn't seem to 
provide fire support, just softening bombardments with nukes.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:06:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:06:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
References: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>


david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> 
> Dear Folks -
> 
> In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see
> <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file
> their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
> 
> Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and
> although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the
> end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned
> for a financial year until after you've earned it.
> 
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's
> timetable works??

Earnings are based on calendar year (1 Jan - 31 Dec).  We receive an
official statement from our employers ("W-2" form) of our earnings,
taxable earnings (not always the same) and taxes withheld no later than
31 Jan of the next year.  We then have until 15 April to file our tax
paperwork (Form 1040, in one of several variations) and pay any tax due.

For further information, check:

http://www.irs.gov

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <3CBD66E0.27266.792890@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 13:49, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
> of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
> something that will be directly proportional to it.

It's simple - the apparent size of the world is what matters. You see 
the jump drives get frightened if they see large opjects in the shy, 
and they don't work well under stress.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:14:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:14:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
References: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au> <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CBCBDFA.1AA77C4E@premier.net>

John Groth wrote:

<<snip>>
> 
> Earnings are based on calendar year (1 Jan - 31 Dec).  We receive an
> official statement from our employers ("W-2" form) of our earnings,
> taxable earnings (not always the same) and taxes withheld no later than
> 31 Jan of the next year.

Just to clarify:

Earnings are based on calendar year (01 Jan X0 - 31 Dec X0), and the W-2
form should be received no later than 31 Jan X1.

Why US income taxes are based on calendar years, while the Federal
government's fiscal years run from 01 Oct X0 - 30 Sep X1 (said year
being referred to as Fiscal Year X1) is beyond me.

Note also that different states may have income tax filing dates that
differ from that of the Federal government....

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:21:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:21:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi,

> There are "clusters". And it's *really* unlikely that any sizable body
> will have a density much above Mercury's. At least in a "normal"
> system. The planets that form around supernova remnants are likely to
> be very different.

Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

Besides, what's "normal" ? Our solar system could be the odd one out, for
all we know. Until we survey a few others, I'd say it was not a good idea to
make assumptions concerning the frequency of systems like ours. Consider the
size of our moon to the Earth, for example. If it hadn't have been for a
body the size of Mars hitting the just-born Earth, the Earth would have been
larger and the moon non-existent, with dramatic effects on evolution and
culture thereafter. The chances of that collision happening may have been
vanishingly small, making the Earth Moon system unique.

Finally, all non-jovian planets form from Supernova remnants. That's what
(a) manufactures the heavier elements in the first place, and (b) creates a
large cloud of particulate and gas that condenses to form a new star. The
presence of anything above the lighter elements in the solar system implies
that the Sun and its family owe their existence to the previous catastrophic
death of a long dead star.

If you are referring to oddities like pulsar planets here, then I'd agree
they would probably be denser if they formed from debris. But then, its more
likely that a pulsar has captured a body ejected from another system, as
supernovas tend to clear the area near the site of the explosion and drive
all the suitable accretion material well away from the pulsar itself. That
Hubble image of the 1987A (?, can't remember the designation now) supernova
remnant shows this in practice - a huge shockwave travelling at relativistic
velocities away from the pulsar corem driving superheated gas and
particulate with it.

> Ain't gonna happen. The abundance of materials in the cloud of dust and
> gas a system forms from means that anything with a substantial iron
> core will have a lot more rocky material overlying it.

Just because it's less likely doesn't mean it won't happen. A few years ago,
superjovians in the inner system were thought impossible, and then guess
what they found ?

Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
come up eventually.

> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.

Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

> I'm not going to quit indicating emphasis. And the alternatives are
> asterisks or underlines and the asterisks are much easier to hit.

Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
all.

> Yes, it's harder to read a sentence where you individually emphasize
> each word with them. But that's not what I'm doing.

No, but it made the point - the *'s draw your eyes to particular key words
and make the sentence harder to read.

> As for patronizing, I'm not responsible for what you read into what I
> write.

Hah ! Have you ever thought of a career in politics ? :-)

Seriously, if you decide to emphasize particular words, then you are
attempting to enforce those words and colour the interpretation of the
sentence, which is what emphasis is all about anyway. Take the sentence
above, "it's *really* unlikely" - there was no need to emphasize the word
"really" here at all. The wording was more than sufficient. All you achieved
was to add a dismissive/patronising tone, as if to say "it's so unlikely
that it's not even worth considering, so I am not going to".

> Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
> of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
> something that will be directly proportional to it.

Why does it have to vary with the inverse cube of the distance ? That
automatically makes the assumption that I argued against, which is "just
because the figures fit it must be right". I'd agree that the tidal figures
being identical for a given density across all world sizes seems convincing,
until you remember that densities are not going to be uniform at all. Then
the "figures matching" evidence breaks down (IIRC, Larger rocky/terrestrial
worlds are likely to have a higher density, as their proto-cores must have
been more massive during accretion to gain the additonal mass in the first
place - therefore as you go from UWP Size 1 to A, the density is likely to
increase, and the tidal force likewise).

Might it not make more sense to say that 100 diameters was a simplification
for the game, and an arbitrary value, rather than cook the Physics books to
justify it ? If you are going to make a "realistic-feel" limit for Jump
Drives, it would make more sense to define it in terms of the gravitational
field strength and forget the diameters thing entirely, except maybe as a
passing comment such as "for Earth this occurs at 100 planetary diameters".

Regards

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <B8E20E0C.3AB65%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/16/02 4:56 PM, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au at
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

> Dear Folks -
> 
> In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see
> <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file
> their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
> 
> Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and
> although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the
> end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned
> for a financial year until after you've earned it.
> 
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's
> timetable works??

Tax year runs January 1 through December 31, with filing not later than
April 15 the following year unless and extension is granted.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416183650.00b8f070@urbin.net>
References: <3CBC7D4F.7020102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CBD6995.16638.83BD87@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 18:37, Mark Urbin wrote:

> >How long did your party survive before the local residents rounded you up 
> >and hung you?
> 
> That's why he should have checked for witnesses first.

Yep. Witnesses are easier to deal with if you can shoot them before 
they know what's going on.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Damn mind rapers
Message-ID: <20020417003134.71770.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

My apoligise to the TML for that PBEM post, in future
must check address before posting. Agian my apoligies.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEDLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> >
> > Dear Folks -
> >
> > In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see
> > <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens
> have to file
> > their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
> >
> > Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and
> > although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the
> > end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned
> > for a financial year until after you've earned it.
> >
> > Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's
> > timetable works??
>
> Earnings are based on calendar year (1 Jan - 31 Dec).  We receive an
> official statement from our employers ("W-2" form) of our earnings,
> taxable earnings (not always the same) and taxes withheld no later than
> 31 Jan of the next year.  We then have until 15 April to file our tax
> paperwork (Form 1040, in one of several variations) and pay any tax due.
>
> For further information, check:
>
> http://www.irs.gov

Well, that sounds all nice and simple.

Over here in blighty, our tax year runs 5th April - 5th April, and the tax
calculations are arcane mysteries. A plethora of forms (P14, P35, P60, et
al) exist for the end of year.

And then, your accountant miscalculates and you end up 465.40 adrift
because he went to a calculator feeding frenzy and slipped on the keys. Such
is life.

ObTrav: What about tax returns in the Imperium ? In particular, what about
tax returns for expatriot traders and the like - do they pay tax where their
ship is registered, or pro rata per world they stay on, or what ?

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
Message-ID: <F195IuSRhAssGzeKkWG0000635c@hotmail.com>

>>And I'm rather suspicious of the masses David Weber gives for a lot of
>>the ships in the Honor Harrington stuff too.
>
>I'm rather suspicious of a lot of things in those books. As for the
>mass, I think he used a square when he should have used a cube law.
>
If the ships have any significant armour then he should have used both 
(square for armour and cube for more or less everything else) assuming he 
didn't set a fixed ratio between volume and armour mass. There should also 
be a constant term and some terms with fractional powers but they might be 
small enough to ignore. It's probably easier and more accurate to build the 
ships FFS/Vehicles style.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <20020416221005.288A827A31@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00c001c1e5aa$dad24960$50b18b90@computer>

> From: Derek Wildstar
> while a lot has been written about the various Traveller militaries, I
> don't think anyone has ever written a supplement about lawyers and
> lawsuits in the Imperium.  ;-)

Hmm....  No, I think you are right - we don't know much about lawyers in the
OTU.

We do, however, know that all accountants have cutlass skill, that all
philosophers wear black berets, and that it is not wise to assume that
everyone who wears a black beret is necessarily a philosopher.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <20020416154004.A42C527A0E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00bd01c1e5aa$d8c25520$50b18b90@computer>

From: James Ramsay
> Oh and a funny thing here in Australia, three of our sailors where
> arrested for damaging earth moving equipment! And these people are
> protecting our waters?

Well of course they damaged it!  They thought earth was just like water.

Or do you mean they were in _possession_ of damaging earth moving equipment?
I would have thought that was the point of the navy - damaging things and
moving earth around.

Maybe they were trying to use the earth moving equipment to protect our
waters by burying them?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com










From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <00bf01c1e5aa$da2a70a0$50b18b90@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon"
> So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the occupants of the
> other car without warning.  Then we went through their pockets for loose
> change.

Wow.  What an incredibly bad idea...  I don't think I've met a single ref
who would have let you get away with that. About the only way you could have
would be if the ref didn't want to have to waste time while you rolled up
new characters.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:56:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:56:30 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <00bc01c1e5aa$d823a420$50b18b90@computer>

From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> That's the sort of magical transformation that all those alchemists dreamt
> about! (Actually, they would have been happy with just a lump of gold, but
> you get my drift... ;-).

Strictly speaking, the goals of alchemy were religious/spiritual.  The
"turning lead to gold" thing was a metaphor.

Of course, there might have been some alchemists that didn't understand
that.  There certainly were a bunch of non-alchemists that didn't, and
handed over plenty of gold to alchemists for the latter to turn to lead for
them.

I've always found it interesting that people like Newton and Boyle were
alchemists.  After all, alchemists were basically wizards.  This raises some
wonderful possibilities.  The British government basically legalised a coven
of witches.  What deals were made to accomplish this?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:57:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:57:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170054.EFJ05650@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

A Los Alamos report

LA-3126-MS           
Pion-nucleon elastic scattering experiments with
high intensity meson beams

How do I get a copy?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:57:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:57:48 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416190104.2243227A2D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00be01c1e5aa$d9841e80$50b18b90@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon" 
> Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from 
> the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
> again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up 
> during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and 
> said, "Behold, Our God!".

Yeah, well, you can rack up another keyboard kill for this...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:59:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:59:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <20020416221005.288A827A31@mail.travellercentral.com> <00c001c1e5aa$dad24960$50b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3CBCC836.201FC590@premier.net>


Alan Bradley wrote:
> 
> > From: Derek Wildstar
> > while a lot has been written about the various Traveller militaries, I
> > don't think anyone has ever written a supplement about lawyers and
> > lawsuits in the Imperium.  ;-)
> 
> Hmm....  No, I think you are right - we don't know much about lawyers in the
> OTU.
> 
> We do, however, know that all accountants have cutlass skill, that all
> philosophers wear black berets, and that it is not wise to assume that
> everyone who wears a black beret is necessarily a philosopher.

I've also mentioned that AuricTech Shipyards (quasi-canon, as the firm
is described in _101 Corporations_) has a contingent of "suits": lawyers
in battledress. ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204170054.EFJ05650@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019005361.2749.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> A Los Alamos report
> 
> LA-3126-MS           
> Pion-nucleon elastic scattering experiments with
> high intensity meson beams
> 
> How do I get a copy?

Somehow, I suspect it would be either incomprehensible or horribly boring even
if you requested it.  In any case, these aren't traveller mesons, since they
seem to actually interact with matter, as opposed to mystically passing through
it without interaction ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LAMPF - a meson facility!
Message-ID: <200204170105.EFJ07268@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Evidently home to the world's most powerful proton 
accelerator (800 MeV).  There's an article about how they 
have to treat items that were in the "hot cell" which 
were "target processed".  These items are apparently 
radioactive after the beam hits them (whether the beam is a 
proton beam or neutron beam).

They can also produce a beam of high energy neutrons by 
striking a tantalum screen with the proton beam.

ObTrav:  After your ship is hit by a meson weapon, assuming 
you're still alive, is the ship a radioactive wreck?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020417011017.28326.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Or do you mean they were in _possession_ of damaging
earth moving equipment? I would have thought that was
the point of the navy - damaging things and moving
earth around.
END QUOTE

Now they damaged some earth moving equipment. However
it was civilian earth moving equipment! Ive said it
before and I will say it agin I am sooooo glad
Australia doesn't have nukes!

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #413 - 48 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020417010107.F3AC9279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020417010107.F3AC9279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <mripbu88p8l3cb85uuh4h4600e5ob0gkac@4ax.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 17:59:21 -0700, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
wrote:

>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:56:56 +1000
>Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>Dear Folks -

>In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see 
><http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file 
>their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).

>Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and 
>although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the 
>end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned 
>for a financial year until after you've earned it.

>Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
>timetable works??

Unless your company specifically indicates otherwise, fiscal years for IRS
purposes are 01/01 to 31/12.  Filing deadline is 15/4 for the prior tax
year.  You can apply for an extension until 15/8, but if you have a tax
liability (i.e., you need to pay rather than receiving a refund) you must
pay by 15/4.


--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net> <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020417114559.A29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Just curious, but what about storing H2 as hydrides?  Don't you get
> a higher density?

Not really.  Hydrides are a form of hydrogen storage with the
advantages of requiring little energy to extract and of being
relatively safe, cheap and reusable.  The best quoted hydride storage
I found on the Web had a hydrogen storage capacity of 95 kg/m^3 at
pressures near 1 atm (assuming bulk solid, which it wouldn't be).
That's better than liquid hydrogen, but lower than water.

Once you have hydrogen-driven fusion power, the energy cost to extract
hydrogen from water becomes pretty much irrelevant.  The expense of
even the cheapest metal hydride storage grossly exceeds that of water
tanks, as well as being a lot heavier.


- Tim




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018998784.5627.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1018998784.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020417114826.B29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
[ Jump fuel requirements ]
> Which is, based on the existence of drop tanks, equal to the total
> fuel requirement of jump.

Please, let's not start the drop-tank "Canon says this!  No, that's
contradicted by *that*" flamewar again.  I did very carefully specify
the requirements applied to My Traveller universe for a reason.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:49:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:49:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170147.EFL02200@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>In any case, these aren't traveller mesons, since=
 they
>seem to actually interact with matter, as opposed to =

>mystically passing through it without interaction ;)

There seems to =
be a major misconception about meson beams in =

Traveller. I still remember reading the original JTAS article.

A semi=
stable meson produced either in a neutral =

form with a mass 264 times that of an electron =

and a mean lifetime of 8.4 =D7 10^17 seconds =

or in a positively or negatively charged form =

with a mass 273 times that of an electron and a =

mean lifetime of 2.6 =D7 10^8 seconds. =

Also called pi meson.

The neutral pion decays in about 10^15 sec, =

usually into a pair of photons but occasionally =

into a positron-electron pair and a photon. Gamma ray photons.

The Tr=
aveller meson was described in an old JTAS
article.  It is a pi neutral=
 meson.  It has no
magical non-interaction properties - it is merely
v=
ery highly penetrating, as cosmic rays (which are
relativistic pi meson=
s) are.  The reason that cosmic =

rays don't make it to the ground is that they decay
before they get low=
er (the atmosphere does slow them
down).  A ship targeted by a relativi=
stic beam tuned
to precipitate the decay of all of its pions a short
d=
istance into the target is a meson gun.

There were experimental radia=
tion treatment machines
designed on this principle, to put radiation in=
to =

specific areas of a patient.

The LAMPF facility at Los Alamos is the =
most powerful
meson accelerator in the world, at 800 Mev.  It was
orig=
inally built in 1968, and has been upgraded over
time.

The Los Alamo=
s National Laboratory proposes =

to construct a scientifically broadly based =

facility using the existing Los Alamos Meson =

Physics Facility (LAMPF) accelerator as =

its injector. Both the Canadian and Los Alamos =

proposals have the capability of providing a =

hundredfold increase in the intensity of =

certain meson and hadron beams over those =

available today. That's 80 GeV.
________________
"Imposed armistices .=
 . . artificially =

freeze conflict and perpetuate a state =

of war indefinitely by shielding the =

weaker side from the consequences of =

refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.182943.8V3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Bruce Johnson asks
>>
>>How long did your party survive before the local residents 
>>rounded you  up and hung you?
>>
> That was the problem.  They had friends.  We got back to 
> town, and they heard about it.  Later that day, when we were 
> strolling into the front foyer of the guest house were were 
> staying at, three men stepped into the room and opened up on 
> us with submachineguns.  Of the six people in our party, one 
> survived.  The three attackers died, but the locals were 
> steamed enough to shoot the survivor after hearing his tale.

Congratulations on rediscovering the principle of the blood feud.

> It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
> principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
> friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
> received.

Also, never *ever* attack someone who has a family. Especially a tight
knit one.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:05:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:05:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <p0433010ab8e24dae9b06@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20416.190000.0p2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:45 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>>  At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>>>>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>>>>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>>>>todal forces are the same.
>>>
>>>  A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the
>>>  size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity
>>>  in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal
>>>  gradient.
>>
>>Actually, the tidal force varies *linearly* with the distance from the
>>center of mass of the body experiencing the tidal forces. Not *quite*
>>the same thing as varying with the size.
>
> The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also 
> true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to 
> another will depend on how far apart they are.

You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
forces). 

>>As a good example, consider some folks in spacesuits tethered to a
>>ship. The forces they experience depend on the distance and direction
>>from the ship, not on the size of the ship.
>
> True.  Though the difference in force between the guy in the space 
> suit different parts of the ship will depend on the size of the ship.

No. I'm talking about the tidal forces on the guy in the suit generated
by the fact that the ship he's attached to is in orbit about a planet.

The forces he experiences at 100 meters from the center of the ship are
ten times those he'd experience at 10 meters (in the same direction).
 
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:06:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:06:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417085805.D28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.190553.2F8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Stephen Tempest wrote:
>> Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?
>
> Of course :)
>
> It varies with which rules, time period, and dataset you use, but my
> figures are on the order of 100 PCr/year.  Never seen a 'P' prefix
> used before?  10^15, in case anyone was wondering ;)

Y	yotta	10^24
Z	zetta	10^21
E	exa	10^18
P	peta	10^15
T	tera	10^12
G	giga	10^9
M	mega	10^6
k	kilo	10^3
h	hecto	10^2
da	deka	10^1

The prefixes go all the way down to 10^-24 too, but those aren't likely
to come up in our discussions.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:07:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:07:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020417120609.C29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Brick wrote:
> If you are going to make a "realistic-feel" limit for Jump Drives,
> it would make more sense to define it in terms of the gravitational
> field strength and forget the diameters thing entirely, except maybe
> as a passing comment such as "for Earth this occurs at 100 planetary
> diameters".


That's exactly what I'm doing.  The tidal gradient *is* the
gravitational field.  Acceleration is coordinate-dependent, and not
intrinsic to gravity.

It so happens that it works out very similar in behaviour to a
diameter based rule, which is an added bonus.  On the other hand, the
fact that the two rules give very similar results may be considered a
problem -- certainly it seems to have caused a lot of confusion here!


- Tim



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
In-Reply-To: <3CBC9A4C.4000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416222702.02624008@192.168.0.1>

At 02:40 PM 4/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>William Lane wrote:
>
>>Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
>>everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
>>info.
>
>That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write XML 
>to Cobol and back...


Way cool!  Can I add this to my Traveller Maintenance Blues page?
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html>

This will great with your other great bit on the subject:
Captain to new crewmember:

"Well, the damn nic in the aft engineering workstation died a month ago, 
and since it's a 150 year old model, it's been hard to find parts...so we 
just do everything by hand...I know, I know, it's a pain, and someday we're 
gonna have to jump on less than 12 hours notice...I'll get _around_ to it, 
ok? Now go pound on the forward stab'rd ventilation controller, the damn 
relay's stuck closed again, and if that keeps upit's gonna be like an 
icebox in the passenger cabins again."


>oBTRav> Captain finds engineer hip deep in the Jump drive controller with 
>an exceptionally old-looking piece of hardware in his hands.
>
>Captain: "Good lord, Scottie! That's a jump *tape* reader! What is that 
>antique doing on my jump drive??"
>
>Engineer: "Well Captain, we cannae find the right components to rrepair 
>the drive controller. Urgvark" he points to a crazed looking Vargr 
>assistant engineer, "...found this in a antique shop. We're tying it into 
>the saircuit right now."
>
>C: "But how will we control it? I haven't seen a jump tape in my life that 
>wasn't in a museum!"
>
>E:"Well Captain, I have a writing head from a holocorder here, we can 
>connect it to the main computer, and have it translate the control 
>instructions from the astrogation program to the correct patterns that a 
>jump tape would have. It should work, in theory, sah. " Shouts "OK 
>Urgvark! Give me some power..."
>
><SNAP> <Pop fsssssshhhhhh> "Turn it off! Turn it off!"
>
>E: Through the smoke..."Ahh captain, we're going ta need some morrre time..."
>
>C: weeps.
>
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170239.TAA01546@ping.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Anthony Jackson says
>>In any case, these aren't traveller mesons, since they
>>seem to actually interact with matter, as opposed to 
>>mystically passing through it without interaction ;)
>
>There seems to be a major misconception about meson beams in 
>Traveller. I still remember reading the original JTAS article.

Nah.  Meson beams have a number of clearly non-physical properties, starting
with the magical 'timed delay'.

>A semistable meson produced either in a neutral 
>form with a mass 264 times that of an electron 
>and a mean lifetime of 8.4  10^17 seconds 
>or in a positively or negatively charged form 
>with a mass 273 times that of an electron and a 
>mean lifetime of 2.6  10^8 seconds. 
>Also called pi meson.

Well, assuming 'lifespan' is half-life, neutral pion is a bit off 
(6.63x10^-17s), charged pion is insanely off (3.76x10^-8), and both
interact via the strong force, giving them penetration not significantly
different from protons at the same energy levels.  Among common partiles,
the best penetrator would be the muon (sometimes called the mu meson,
though it's not a meson), as it's fairly massive (avoiding the effects
that bleed energy off electrons) and doesn't interact via the strong
force.  It also has as longer lifespan than any type of pion (3.17x10^-6).
A teravolt accelerator might have usable range in space combat.

>The Traveller meson was described in an old JTAS
>article.  It is a pi neutral meson.  It has no
>magical non-interaction properties - it is merely
>very highly penetrating, as cosmic rays (which are
>relativistic pi mesons) are.  The reason that cosmic 
>rays don't make it to the ground is that they decay
>before they get lower (the atmosphere does slow them
>down).  A ship targeted by a relativistic beam tuned
>to precipitate the decay of all of its pions a short
>distance into the target is a meson gun.

The decay process described above is clearly magical, since fundamental 
particles don't decay at a fixed time, they simply have a normal logarithmic
decay and will thus have the largest number of decays right in front of the
barrel.  It also requires utterly insane energy levels for neutral pions to
have any range (by the abbreviations given elsewhere, somewhere around 100
YEv).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20416.182943.8V3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204161937200.17414-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Congratulations on rediscovering the principle of the blood feud.
> 
> > It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
> > principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
> > friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
> > received.
> 
> Also, never *ever* attack someone who has a family. Especially a tight
> knit one.
> 
Don't attack people with seriously dysfunctional families, either.

In any given moment, at least 50% of my relatives aren't speaking to at
least one other relative.  That doesn't mean they wouldn't ALL get
together and kick your ass if you attacked one of us-- the principle as
far as I can tell is that we're the only people who are allowed to hurt
us.  I was very, very surprised when my brother, who is on crack half the
time and with whom I can rarely have a civil conversation due to his
racism, sexism and homophobia, decided he was going after my ex-husband,
and I was the only person on earth who was able to stop him.  And did,
because Vince isn't worth that kind of trouble and Tripp doesn't need
another strike toward the three.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170250.EFN02270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson
>
>Nah.  Meson beams have a number of clearly non-physical 
>properties, starting with the magical 'timed delay'.
>

There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes 
are for mesons that are *not* in motion.

Mesons that are moving at relativistic velocities last a 
*lot* longer.  Otherwise, cosmic rays would never pass down 
into our upper atmosphere.

The decay times listed are also from a Los Alamos website.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <3CBD64AF.31847.709971@localhost>
References: <3CBD64AF.31847.709971@localhost>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8e293c05231@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:03 PM +1200 4/17/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 16 Apr 2002 at 20:32, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>
>>  Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
>>  (of radiation effects on fertility)
>>  > Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in
>>  > men, if you prefer)?
>>
>>  Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
>>  the testis to ionising radiation.
>
>How penetrating is ionising radiation in general? If it's not very
>penetrating there should be some adjustment made to allow for the
>ovaries being protected by being inside, rather than outside the torso.

Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can 
easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the 
skin (or more than a meter or two of air).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.190000.0p2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.190000.0p2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8e294f89b54@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:00 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>  > The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also
>>  true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to
>>  another will depend on how far apart they are.
>
>You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
>depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
>ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
>forces).

I'm not sure what force you are talking about.  The force on any one 
part of the ship is the force of gravity.  Tidal forces are the 
relative difference in forces between different parts of an object.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Qiuck Query on US Tax Returns
Message-ID: <3CBCE57F.316C0F85@mail.cswnet.com>

Further clarifications to what John Groth wrote:

>Earnings are based on calendar year (01 Jan X0 - 31 Dec X0), and the >W-2 form should be received no later than 31 Jan X1.

There is a grace period for employers sending out W-2 forms. While the
forms themselves must go out 1/31, taxpayers who have not recieved them
cannot contact the IRS until 2/15.

April 15 is the tax deadline. Extensions to file the taxes are allowed,
but extensions for paying the taxes are not. Thus if you owe and take an
extension you still wind up paying penalties and interest.

>Note also that different states may have income tax filing dates that
>differ from that of the Federal government....

Examples: Arkansas and Louisiana, both file taxes 1 month after the
Federal return, on 5/15.

California requires its taxes on 4/15, but grants an automatic extension
for filing till 10/15. Again, this is for filing only, not for taxes
owed.

Also, some states [Wyoming, Florida, Nevada, Texas, Alaska, Washington,
South Dakota] do not have personal income tax. Two others, New Hampshire
and Tennessee don't really deal with personal tax unless your a richie
with lots of dividends and interest earnings. I imagine that in these
states they get the income via sales and property taxes. Texas, as an
example, has its infamous "Hospitality Tax", which is a sales tax on
hotels and motels.

Then there is that unique fun known to tax preparers as "the all-states
return." This is where the taxpayer has moved from one state to another,
and the tax preparer gets to pull his/her hair out trying to figure all
the tax consequences for the individual. And some states don't make it
easy. Check out Wisconsins Form 827, Legal Residence (Domicile)
Questionnaire. By the time you get done with it, you'll think you've
arrived in the Solomani Confederation.

This is a good place to start:
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

You can get to the IRS site here. It also gives you an overlook at US
states in the "State Tax Profiles" section.

Andy B writes:
>ObTrav: What about tax returns in the Imperium ? In particular, what >about tax returns for expatriot traders and the like - do they pay tax >where their ship is registered, or pro rata per world they stay on, or >what ?

When I first got on the TML, back on the old list, we had a big
discussion about taxes. Actually, I think it was the first question I
posted. IIRC, the general opinion was that the Imperuim itself doesn't
do personal income taxes. It gets its money from planetary transfers
[the 30% thing you see in Striker] and sales taxes [seen chiefly at
Starports, or in systems where the Imperuim controls liscencing for belt
mining]. Personal income taxes are a province of what ever planet you
are from. Be advised that whatever you pc is doing, he will, eventually
and inevitably, have to deal with taxes in one form or another. Take my
little piece of landgrab heaven, Arba/Lunion 1721. Zero government, Zero
lawlevel. The perfect tax shelter, right? Just don't go to the Starport,
cause the SPA needs ALOT of money to run it and you WILL pay thru the
nose going through there. So you go out to the asteroid belt to mine ice
so you don't have to go to the port, right? So sorry, but the Imperuim
requires you to have a prospectors liscence [to help defray the cost of
maintaining a small patrol running through the system]. And so on and so
forth. 

God, I just spent all day yesterday working on other peoples taxes. I
found the whole experience ....

[WAIT FOR IT]




I found the whole experience TAXING.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"Let me tell you how it will be. There's one for you, nineteen for me.
Cause I'm the Tax Man, oh yeah I'm the Tax Man."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:07:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:07:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20416.191041.8G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
>
>>>Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =3D20
>>
>>Shouldnt the hull code be Z? I though Y was for 1,000,000 to=20
>>1,999,999. Z was for anything above that.=20
>
> Y is for 1,000,000 to "the next stated level" - but there isn't one,
> so I'm assuming it's just "over a million tons".  Z is "Reserved".
>
>>>MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
>>Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
>>Architects fees? Anyone?
>
> Standard cost.  If you *really* want to start mass-producing these
> things, you scare me ;-)
>
> I didn't include the architect's fees, but they'd be TCr 376,770.  The
> kind of contract every naval architect dreams of.

Check out Fritz Leiber's novel "The Wanderer" for planet ships.
Including things like PAW mounts with tunnels thousands of miles long. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:08:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:08:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417082001.B28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.192354.1u3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
>> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
> Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
> a nitpick.

I was going by the figures in the post I was responding to, which had a
higher density listed for Mercury.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204170250.EFN02270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204170250.EFN02270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes are for
> mesons that are *not* in motion.

They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half of the
original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has elapsed, 1/4 decay in
the next half-life period, 1/8 in the half-life after that, etc.

In a universe in which electronic precognition is common, you might be
able to look into the future and tell which are going to decay when.
Then you can preferentially accelerate the short-lived ones.  Oh,
you'll need accelerators capable of delivering a few megajoules *per
particle* as well, controllable to within 1 part per trillion, and
reliable precognition to the same accuracy.

Short of that, you'll get a beam of decaying mesons all along your
firing path, with the greatest concentration of decays *inside* your
weapon.


Getting a real meson to decay "on schedule" at a distance of hundreds
of thousands of kilometres is indeed magic of a very high order
according to current physics.  I'm not doubting that they exist in the
Traveller universe, just that their behaviour is radically different
from the way *real* mesons behave.

I'm a fan of the "Dr Meson" theory.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170327.UAA04325@ping.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Anthony Jackson
>>
>>Nah.  Meson beams have a number of clearly non-physical 
>>properties, starting with the magical 'timed delay'.
>>
>
>There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes 
>are for mesons that are *not* in motion.

You missed the point.  The point is that particles don't have 'lifespans'
(that can be extended with relativistic effects).  The have half-lives
(that can also be extended with relativistic effects) but the effect of
a half-life is that decays happen along the entire length of the beam,
with the largest number occuring right in front of the barrel.
>
>Mesons that are moving at relativistic velocities last a 
>*lot* longer.  Otherwise, cosmic rays would never pass down 
>into our upper atmosphere.

Well, cosmic rays are mostly regular nuclei initially; by and large everything
but the muons does decay before reaching the ground.

> The decay times listed are also from a Los Alamos website.

Hm..odd, I got mine off an LBL website.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018991242.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com> <ML-2.3.1018991242.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <i1qpbu0h52l19nh3hil3ubpm159pg14q71@4ax.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:07:22 -0700 (PDT), Anthony Jackson
<ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>I seem to recall something about X-ray lasers being developed, but =
they're not
>exactly weapons-grade.  The old SDI people talked about bomb-pumped =
X-ray
>lasers, a mechanism which AFAIK has never been successfully =
demonstrated, not
>that this prevent people from using it in SF.

I believe that bomb-pumped X-ray lasers were among the last things
examined with the underground nuclear tests.  If I recall, at they
showed some disappointing results in regard to focusing.

Since that time, there have no doubt been refinements to the design to
address the problem, but of course they haven't been tested.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:07:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:07:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com> <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 13:58:32 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
><SNIP>
>>
>> It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In another
>> of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional and
>> compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive me if
>> I am interpreting you incorrectly).  I believe you are in error in
>> this regard.  As per the above, the compressional forces are due to
>> the object's self-gravity and only the tensional forces are due to the
>> influence of another body and therefore are tidal forces.
>
>No. Tidal forces are *away* from the center of the satellite along the
>line joining it to the primary (ie the side closest to the primary is
>pulled towards the primary, and the side opposite the primary is pulled
>*away* from the primary.=20
>
>But the forces in the plane perpendicular to that line are *towards*
>the center of the satellite.=20
>
>so if you were orbiting close to a neutron star in a space suit, your
>feet would be pulled towards the star, your head would be pulled away
>from it and your waist would be getting squeezed.=20

Thank you for the clarification.  I'll admit that I'd forgotten the
"pinching" effect taking place in the plane perpendicular to the axis
passing through the primary and the satellite (though I had a clear
image of a fluid satellite doing exactly this in my mind [THUD]}.

However, I want to point you back to the original point of discussion
and the problem I was having with Tim Little's assertion that Jump
Drives are inherently at 0 diameters of the jumping ship itself.  This
may be true if one views the various limits as being imposed by
gravity, but, in a past discussion, it was elegantly pointed out that
tidal force more closely conforms to the 100 or 10 diameter limit for
the various planetary types than does gravity.

My point was that I believe that a body does not exert tidal force
upon itself.  Rather, those forces only appear in relation to two
separate bodies.  Therefore, a ship, otherwise outside the 100
diameter limit of other system bodies (and the tidal forces upon it
from those bodies is therefore negligible), does not exert a tide upon
itself or, to give Tim his due, that those forces are compressional
and are subsumed in the body's own gravitation.  Therefore, the Jump
drive is not working in a 0 diameter condition.

=46ailing this, I'll have to throw in with the earlier hand wave that
the jump grid defines a boundary within which the tidal force (or
gravitation) can be ignored.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:45:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:45:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416222132.009fa690@mail.attbi.com>

	I appreciate the comments of everyone who has replied to my initial 
post.  I gather that sandcasters would work best
against optical wavelengths and might require a lot of sand, but are not 
entirely infeasible.  Particle beams and X-ray lasers appear to be another 
kettle of fish entirely.  Years ago, before the internet, before I knew 
anyone besides myself might be interested in space combat, I checked out a 
copy of The Effects of Nuclear Weapons.  In it I found some interesting 
tables on the 1/2 value thickness of various material versus various forms 
of radiaton.  The 1/2 value thickness for X-rays was approximately 20 grams 
per square cm for heavy metals.  But that was for a solid plate of 
iron.  If the beam had to pass through a long distance (a few hundred 
meters) would that make any difference?  I am wondering if a long 
scattering distance would reduce the required density.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS TML Skills
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C179DB@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>


Sebastian:
If you have a Skill at Level 0 (e.g. Grav Vehicle-0), and this Skill 'serves
as' another Skill at Level minus 1 (Grav Vehicle serves as Grav Belt -1), at
which Level do I execute the 'served' Skill (Grav Belt)?
at : Level -1 (-> giving a negative DM of 1)?
at : Level 0 (-> minimum Skill-Level is allways 0)?
or not at all (-> there are no 'served' Skills for Level-0-Skills)?


I would go with the first one (giving a negative DM of -1). The other thing
is of course when you have both skills. For example Pilot serves as Ship's
Boat-1. So if you have Ship's Boat-2 and Pilot-3, does your Ship's Boat
become 4 (Pilot-3 minus 1 plus Ship's Boat-2), or is your DM still just 2
and you've wasted two skill levels. 

I love Megatraveller, but like all RPGers I changed it to taste. So for my
system, which has a combo of MT & T4 skills, plus some of my own, any skill
that is related gives a Synergy bonus. For example, I consider Computers and
Robotics linked skills. If you have a Skill level of 2-3 you can add a DM of
1 to a linked skill, and if Skill level 4+ add 2. If you have more than one
linked skill then you only add the highest bonus. 

I have found it works very well. I am more than happy to email to you if
you're interested, along with the reworked task & generation rules. 

Mikey

PS I rolled Ships Boat into Pilot. I thought it was stoopid to have them
separate. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>
References: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com> <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020417150233.E29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> in a past discussion, it was elegantly pointed out that tidal force
> more closely conforms to the 100 or 10 diameter limit for the
> various planetary types than does gravity.

At the risk of repeating myself: tidal gradient *is* the gravitational
field.  The gravitational field *is* the tidal gradient.  This is
particularly true in General Relativity, where gravitational
"acceleration" has no real existence, and the tidal gradient
corresponds precisely to the spacetime curvature.  This curvature (the
gravitational field) exists inside solid objects as well as outside.


> Failing this, I'll have to throw in with the earlier hand wave that
> the jump grid defines a boundary within which the tidal force (or
> gravitation) can be ignored.

That's what I use.  Works for me.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:16:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:16:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204162126.g3GLQsn00991@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20416.215652.8Q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
>> network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
>> just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.
>> 
>> In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
>> a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
>> wormholes have to share a reference frame.
>
> I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim

The existence of a preferred frame, means that laws of physics work
differently in *that* frame than in other frames. Which violates the
hell out of relativity and has other consequences as well. 

But if your drive only works in *that* reference frame or is otherwise
"tied" to it, you don't have to woory about time travel and other problems.

You *do* have to worry about explaining how it is that it just so
happens that this section of the milky way is moving at the right speed
in the right direction for FTL to be "easy" when it's very hard for the
rest of the universe.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:16:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:16:59 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <p04330109b8e24d6388f8@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20416.215513.5m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:28 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in
>>  > near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near
>>>  misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a
>>>  single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?
>>
>>We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
>>outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.
>
> We are looking.  There is a program underway to catalog Earth 
> crossing asteroids....

Yes, but they are looking for the *big* ones, not the measly little
hundred meter jobs. Detecting those would be nice, but if one hit it
wouldn't be much worse than a big nuke.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Added search to archives
Message-ID: <B8E2563E.3AD20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

I just integrated the htdig search engine into the tml archives.  Give it a
spin.

Now we just need to convert old tml archives into mailbox format and we'll
have all the archives back to 1994 online and searchable.

I'm looking for volunteers.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
Message-ID: <200204170555.WAA10726@ping.iii.com>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:

>In mail you write:
>
>>> Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
>>> network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
>>> just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.
>>> 
>>> In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
>>> a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
>>> wormholes have to share a reference frame.
>>
>> I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim
>
>The existence of a preferred frame, means that laws of physics work
>differently in *that* frame than in other frames. Which violates the
>hell out of relativity and has other consequences as well. 

Well, it means that FTL works differently in that reference frame than
others; specifically, that reference frame is one in which all FTL transits
appear to take positive time.  It does mean that using FTL, the 
michealson-morley experiment will actually work and return an absolute
velocity relative to this reference frame.
>
>But if your drive only works in *that* reference frame or is otherwise
>"tied" to it, you don't have to woory about time travel and other problems.
>
>You *do* have to worry about explaining how it is that it just so
>happens that this section of the milky way is moving at the right speed
>in the right direction for FTL to be "easy" when it's very hard for the
>rest of the universe.

Note, however, that if you _create_ a wormhole network, the act of doing so
defines a preferred frame of reference.  As long as you don't/can't create
a second network (with a different reference frame), explaining this isn't
a problem (explaining the inability to create more than one network may
require some handwaving).

And the 'priveleged reference frame' doesn't have to be the same as the
speed of the milky way.  It means that some FTL trips will seem to take
negative time, but since the round trip time remains constant, no actual
causality violation can occur.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F101Yg83alUohIi6YEF00006b18@hotmail.com>

I'm cross posting this to the list and sending it directly to Bruce 
MacIntosh as well.

>Mr. Holmstrm,
>
>I'm a member of the TML and I recently ran across an old email you sent out 
>proposing rules for the building of chem-det lasers using Bruce Macintosh's 
>"MCS" starship combat rules.
>
>If you're still playing Traveller and it isn't an imposition on you, could 
>you tell me if you ever finished a final draft of your rules?

Ohh, I'm still playing Traveller/reading the TML. The short answer to your 
question is "sort of yes" but the long answer is more interesting. I tried 
to pick apart the NukeDet tables in FFS and the warhead table in MCS and 
reverse engineer the Frag and ChemDet warheads using MCS and FFS. The major 
problems are that the ChemDet and Frag warheads mentioned in MCS might be 
handwaved and lacks stats (mass/vol/price). More details on NukeDets in 
FFS1/2 would also help. The discussion below assumes that the reader knows 
FFS and MCS. If I'm unclear somewhere just yell.

Most of my argument uses this table from MCS:
>Type                    Pen:Damage     Defence Nuclear Det-Laser            
>                                            TL15    19:13           -7
>                TL13    18:12           -7
>                TL10    17:11           -7
>Chemical Det-Laser-13   13:10           -6
>Fragmentation KKMSIM-10 10:14           -3

If the ChemDets are supposed to have a PEN calue of 13 this means that it 
must have a FFS2 DV of at least 21 (assuming PEN = 10*DAM => MCS DAM 7). 
This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking about a 
X-ray laser to it needs to be at least TL13. MCS states that NukeDets has a 
penetration value of 20 times the FFS2 damage value (instead of the usual 
PEN = 10xDAM). Further it states that the warhead (as a whole) has twice the 
damage compared to the listed damage (per beam) in FFS2. This can be used to 
determine the yield of the NukeDets used in the MCS missile table. Note that 
all the warheads mass around 500 kg.

TL     Yield    Damage  Wt       Vol
10     100 kt    80     540 kg   270 l
13     200 kt    94     500 kg   250 l
15     500 kt   113     500 kg   250 l

From the PD modifiers in MCS I drew the conclusion that ChemDets detonate 
closer to their target than DetNukes and that Frags detonates even closer. 
At shorter distances the missile will be easier to hit but this works both 
ways. Every -1 on defence makes the missile twice as hard to hit (based on 
PD RoF modifiers).

Warhead      Eff.
NukeDet       1
ChemDet       2
Frag         16

To bring the damage of the ChemDet warhead up to DAM 10 we need to hit the 
target 3 times (compared with 2 for NukeDets)using 40Mj laser pulses. Since 
the ChemDet detonates at a more efficient distance we only have to use 67% 
as many lasing rods as on a NukeDet.

Here is where we run out of information. How many lasing rods are there in a 
NukeDet? Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow 
up) or something more powerful (that does)? Can a lasing rod (as used in 
NukeDets) also be used with chemicals? What is the cost/weight/volume of the 
lasing rod and tracking telescope?


There are two ways to handle this.

1. Assume that all warheads in the MCS missile list are 500 kg/250 l. The 
cost of the ChemDet warhead is anybody's guess but say 100 kCr. The ChemDet 
with PEN13 and DAM10 will represent the baseline warhead and can be modified 
as follows.

Modify weight and volume based on Tech Level.

TL  Wt and Vol mod
13   1.00
16   0.67

By changing the power and number of the lasing rods different warheads can 
be constructed. Change the PEN and DAM values and then apply the weight, 
volume and price modifiers. Each extra point can be added to either DAM or 
PEN but not to both.  Points can also be transferred (e.g. PEN+1/DAM-1) at 
no cost.

Bonus*   Wt, Vol and Price mod
+1          1.5  (1.46)
+2          2.0  (2.15)
+3          3.0  (3.16)
+4          4.5  (4.65)
+5          7.0  (6.81)
+6         10.0  (10.0)
For negative modifiers divide instead.

Examples

A TL11 ChemDet warhead (-2).
Pen = 13 - 1 = 12.
Dam = 10 - 1 = 9.
Wt = 500 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 500 kg.
Vol = 250 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 250 l.
Price = 100 / 2.0 = 50 kCr.

A TL13 Heavy ChemDet Warhead (+3).
Pen = 13 + 2 = 15.
Dam = 10 + 1 = 11.
Wt = 500 * 3.0 = 1500 kg.
Vol = 500 * 3.0 = 750 l.
Price = 100 * 3.0 = 300 kCr.


A +3 ChemDet warhead and a ring of imperial intervention is all a traveller 
needs. ;) The modifiers are based on the 6*log10 damage scale of MCS and the 
Chemical Lasing Cartridge efficiency table. I believe this gives reasonable 
numbers but one might want to differentiate the TL table a bit.


2. Running the numbers of a 500 kg warhead using standard components.

A 40Mj 10 cm X-ray focal array with 10'000 km effective range at TL13.
Focal area  : 0.007854 m2.
Focal vol   : 0.000314 m3.
Focal mass  : 0.314 kg.
Focal price : 31.4 Cr.

Input energy  : 61.54 Mj.
Cartridge wt  : 30.77 kg.
Cartridge vol : 3.127 l.
I can't find the listed price for CLC cartridges in FFS2 so I use FFS1 
figures instead.
Cartridge price : 1850 Cr.

The weight limitation allows 16 cartridges to be fitted.
Warhead Wt    : 497.3 kg.
Warhead Vol   : 55.06 l.
Warhead Price : 30 kCr.

The result a very cheap and compact warhead but I doubt that 16 cartridges 
are enough since a NukeDet probably has more than 24 lasing rods. Building 
the thing with TL15 will allow for 21 cartridges and TL16 gets us 35 (mainly 
due to better cartridges). To be completely legal the warhead would need a 
beampointer which adds ~1000 kg at TL13. With a beampointer it is hard to 
see how any of the beams could miss at all.

Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a lot. 
TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge? Double this?


Ideas/Comments are welcomed.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20417.015401.9f1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> However, I want to point you back to the original point of discussion
> and the problem I was having with Tim Little's assertion that Jump
> Drives are inherently at 0 diameters of the jumping ship itself.  This
> may be true if one views the various limits as being imposed by
> gravity, but, in a past discussion, it was elegantly pointed out that
> tidal force more closely conforms to the 100 or 10 diameter limit for
> the various planetary types than does gravity.
>
> My point was that I believe that a body does not exert tidal force
> upon itself.  Rather, those forces only appear in relation to two
> separate bodies.  Therefore, a ship, otherwise outside the 100
> diameter limit of other system bodies (and the tidal forces upon it
> from those bodies is therefore negligible), does not exert a tide upon
> itself or, to give Tim his due, that those forces are compressional
> and are subsumed in the body's own gravitation.  Therefore, the Jump
> drive is not working in a 0 diameter condition.

Alas, any ship has to be treated as a collection of particles. And each
of those particles *does* exert forces on the others. And some could be
described as tidal forces. 

In any case the field will vary in weird and wonderful ways. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:42:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:42:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20417.015559.9o2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hi,
>
>> There are "clusters". And it's *really* unlikely that any sizable body
>> will have a density much above Mercury's. At least in a "normal"
>> system. The planets that form around supernova remnants are likely to
>> be very different.
>
> Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

Yes, but it's above by less than .2 g/cm^3. Im' talking about the
likelihood of planet's with densitys 1, 2 or more g/cm^3 above earth's.

Also, the post I was replying to had the wrong density for Mercury, and
had it being denser than earth. I didn't check my references until
someone pointed out the error.

> Besides, what's "normal" ? Our solar system could be the odd one out, for
> all we know. Until we survey a few others, I'd say it was not a good idea to
> make assumptions concerning the frequency of systems like ours. Consider the
> size of our moon to the Earth, for example. If it hadn't have been for a
> body the size of Mars hitting the just-born Earth, the Earth would have been
> larger and the moon non-existent, with dramatic effects on evolution and
> culture thereafter. The chances of that collision happening may have been
> vanishingly small, making the Earth Moon system unique.

The sort of normalcy I'm talking about is based soely on elemental
abundances and the way a cloud of dust and gas collapses to form
planets. Which none of the recent discoveries have modified in a way
that affects the density of inner planets that aren't gas giants. 

You wind up with only three types of material to build planets from.
Ices, "stony" materials and nickel-iron and the few elements that like
to accumulate along with it in "melts". 

Once a body gets big enough, radioative decay (far more important
several billion years back and likely equally important in any
forming solar system due to supernovas helping "push" things together)
will cause first the "ices" to melt, which lets the grains of other
materials sink to the center. 

This gives a layer of ice over a layer of liquid over a loosely packed
core of stony material. Eventually as the radioactives decay it'll
freeze. 

If it's big enough, the stony part will melt and form various minerals.
And the stuff not soluble in alumina and silica will settle to the
center giving a nickel iron core.

Once enough planetismals come together, they start sweeping up any
others that get close. As well as remaining gas and dust. Big enough
collections become gas giants, brown dwarfs or even stars. 

Once a star lights up, it drives out the gas and dust from the inner
system, causing it to get collected by the larger of the planets
farther out. Which grow even bigger. 

It also tends to bake out the "ices" on inner system bodies unless they
are already small gas giants. This gets distributed to the outer system
as well. 

And depending on factors we aren't sure of, gas giants may slowly
spiral inward in many systems until the gas and dust that are slowing
them are gone. In the process they tend to absorb any planets that
formed in orbits inside of their original orbits (though they may also
eject some from the system).

In any case, the only way to *get* a nickel iron core is to be a body
larger enough to melt from internal heat, large enough to have a enough
nickel and iron, and small enough to not turn into a gas giant.

Such bodies will, due to simple elemental abundances, have *much* more
stony material than nickel-iron.

If they are small enough, and there are enough of them to form a "belt"
you'll get colisions fragmenting the surface and you could get an
exposed iron core. But that takes a pretty small body. 

Anything that's even a size 1 planet is way too big for that. 

So only systems with *really* skewed elemental abundances will have
worlds with densities much higher than Earth's. Or other *really* weird
situations. The pulsatr planets, rocky planets that are insanely close
to their primary (work out what would be left of Earth after a few
billion years at 0.1 AU from the sun, for example). etc.

> Finally, all non-jovian planets form from Supernova remnants. That's what
> (a) manufactures the heavier elements in the first place, and (b) creates a
> large cloud of particulate and gas that condenses to form a new star. The
> presence of anything above the lighter elements in the solar system implies
> that the Sun and its family owe their existence to the previous catastrophic
> death of a long dead star.
>
> If you are referring to oddities like pulsar planets here, then I'd agree
> they would probably be denser if they formed from debris. But then, its more
> likely that a pulsar has captured a body ejected from another system, as
> supernovas tend to clear the area near the site of the explosion and drive
> all the suitable accretion material well away from the pulsar itself. That
> Hubble image of the 1987A (?, can't remember the designation now) supernova
> remnant shows this in practice - a huge shockwave travelling at relativistic
> velocities away from the pulsar corem driving superheated gas and
> particulate with it.

Except that they are likely to have some sort of accretion disks of
matter that *didn't* reach escape velocity. That's apt to be
preferentially enriched with denser materials.

>> Ain't gonna happen. The abundance of materials in the cloud of dust and
>> gas a system forms from means that anything with a substantial iron
>> core will have a lot more rocky material overlying it.
>
> Just because it's less likely doesn't mean it won't happen. A few years ago,
> superjovians in the inner system were thought impossible, and then guess
> what they found ?

But that just showed that orbits weren't as stable as we thought, and
that large bodies might form close to where the star did. 

They are still gas giants in most respects.

> Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
> that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
> An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
> perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
> planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
> come up eventually.

Thing is, if it wasn't rare, we'd see more variation in densities of
objects in this system. Only bodies that get that dense are asteroid
fragments. 

The problem is managing to collect all that iron and then get *rid* of
all the *rock* that had to accumulate with it.

Rules of thumb are expected to work *most* of the time. and that's all
the 100 diameter limit is.

>> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
>> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
> Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
> in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
> superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

If they get big enough, that can't happen. so either they formed
farther out and moved in, or they were running a close second to the
body that became the star. 

>> I'm not going to quit indicating emphasis. And the alternatives are
>> asterisks or underlines and the asterisks are much easier to hit.
>
> Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
> message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
> need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
> all.

Sorry, but emphasis can change the meaning of a sentence. And convey
extra meaning. 

>> Yes, it's harder to read a sentence where you individually emphasize
>> each word with them. But that's not what I'm doing.
>
> No, but it made the point - the *'s draw your eyes to particular key words
> and make the sentence harder to read.

Harder for *you*, maybe. You are the only person I've ever heard make
such an argument. And I'm far from the only person who uses them. 

Also, they don't draw my eyes to such words. They modify the emphasis
as I reach the word. They don't "pull" my eyes on ahead.

By your argument, I shouldn't use emphasis in speaking either. And
that's just plain silly.

>> As for patronizing, I'm not responsible for what you read into what I
>> write.
>
> Hah ! Have you ever thought of a career in politics ? :-)
>
> Seriously, if you decide to emphasize particular words, then you are
> attempting to enforce those words and colour the interpretation of the
> sentence, which is what emphasis is all about anyway. Take the sentence
> above, "it's *really* unlikely" - there was no need to emphasize the word
> "really" here at all. The wording was more than sufficient. All you achieved
> was to add a dismissive/patronising tone, as if to say "it's so unlikely
> that it's not even worth considering, so I am not going to".

I emphasized it because if I was speaking I'd stress that word. That's
not being patronizing, that's saying that I consider it very, very
unlikely. Without resorting to overly awkward phrasing. 

>> Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
>> of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
>> something that will be directly proportional to it.
>
> Why does it have to vary with the inverse cube of the distance ? That
> automatically makes the assumption that I argued against, which is "just
> because the figures fit it must be right".

Work it out for yourself. Any "force" that is the same at X diameters
(where X <>1) from bodies of different sizes *does* vary by the cube of
the distance.  That's the way the geometry works. See below.

> I'd agree that the tidal figures
> being identical for a given density across all world sizes seems convincing,
> until you remember that densities are not going to be uniform at all. Then
> the "figures matching" evidence breaks down (IIRC, Larger rocky/terrestrial
> worlds are likely to have a higher density, as their proto-cores must have
> been more massive during accretion to gain the additonal mass in the first
> place - therefore as you go from UWP Size 1 to A, the density is likely to
> increase, and the tidal force likewise).

Except that back when the 100 diameter ruke was set forth, all the
rules for calculating things about planets explicitly stated that you
were to assume that they had the same density.

Check out the reprints of the first three books.

> Might it not make more sense to say that 100 diameters was a simplification
> for the game, and an arbitrary value, rather than cook the Physics books to
> justify it ? If you are going to make a "realistic-feel" limit for Jump
> Drives, it would make more sense to define it in terms of the gravitational
> field strength and forget the diameters thing entirely, except maybe as a
> passing comment such as "for Earth this occurs at 100 planetary diameters".

Work out the field strength at 100 diameters for size 1 thru 10 planets
assuming densities similar to that of earth or even Mars. The figures
are *way* off. 

Since field strength varies by inverse *square*, but mass varies as the
*cube* of the diameter, you get huge differences. 

Call the mass of a size 1 world 1. And the field strength at 100
diameters 1. 

A size 10 world has 1000 times the mass (volune is proprotional to the
cube of the size). It's 10 times bigger, which makes 100 diameters, 10
times as big as with the size one world. So we have 1000 times the mass
but only 10 times the distance. With an inverse square law, that means
the force would be 1000/(10^2) stronger.

X = KM/R^2

So the field strength at 100 diameters from a size 10 world is ten
times that of the strength at 100 diameters from a size 1 world of the
same density.

To get density differences to make up the differences, the *larger*
world would have to be 1/10th as dense as the *smaller* world. And that
ain't gonna happen.

If the force varies by the inverse *cube*, then you've got 1000 times
the mas at 10 times the distance, but instead of X=KM/R^2, you've got
X=KM/R^3. 

So you've got 1000/(10^3) = 1

*That* is why it has to depend on the inverse cube. 

I worked out the fact that inverse cube was needed *before* I knew that
tidal forces followed an inverse cube law.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:43:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:43:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b8e294f89b54@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20417.014254.3E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 7:00 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>  > The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also
>>>  true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to
>>>  another will depend on how far apart they are.
>>
>>You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
>>depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
>>ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
>>forces).
>
> I'm not sure what force you are talking about.  The force on any one 
> part of the ship is the force of gravity.  Tidal forces are the 
> relative difference in forces between different parts of an object.

The "tidal forces" are due to a combination of gravity *and* motion. 

Remember, the ship is assumed to be in "free fall" (ie freely
responding to gravity in some sort of orbit) when you figure the tidal
acceleration due to the body the ship is orbiting (Note: I'm using
"orbit" loosely, to include things like parabolic and hyperbolic
trajectories) 

The "tidal forces" are due to differences in the strength of the
primary's field and due to the motion of the ship in it's orbit.

The magnitude of the forces depends not on the size of the *orbiting*
body, but on the distance from the center of mass of that body, and
what direction you are from the center relative to the line connecting
primary and satellite.

So, at a given distance from earth, the tidal forces at the center of
mass of a ship due to Earth will be *zero*. At they will increase as
you move away from that point. The direction and magnitude of the
forces depends on the distance from that center and upon the direction
relative to the line joining that point to the center of the Earth.

Anything "attached" to the ship is subject to those forces. 

The forces will be the same at 100 meters in a given direction from the
center of the ship whether the ship is a tiny scout with a pole
sticking out in that direction or or 1 km long ship with that point
being inside the ship.

Secondary effects due to the mass distribution of the ship will modify
those forces. But it's not the "size" of the ship per se that
determines the strength or direction of the forces.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:43:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:43:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCECFCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
> How penetrating is ionising radiation in general?

Alpha particles will be stopped by skin (will travel 5-7cm in air).
Ingested alpha emitters are problematic, though.

Beta particles travel 2-8m in air. They might actually traverse
the abdominal or chest wall, if you're really thin.

Gamma rays have a half thickness (50% attenuation) of 12cm of water.
Fast neutrons (energy of more than 500keV) have greater
penetration than gammas.

The fudge factor I suggested accounts for the increased radiosensitivity of
the ovary.

Their location is irrelevant as the most likely radiation types encountered
will be gamma radiation, neutrons and cosmic rays.

David Summers wrote :-
> I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the
> fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
Damn shame, that <g>.


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:45:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:45:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F169fBi0SHfgcSoVW04000117c4@hotmail.com>

Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to 
enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?

This concept is pretty palatable in the US, because there has to be 
jurisdiction for a court to hear a case and due process is constitutionally 
guaranteed.  But is that necessarily the case in the Imperium?

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:45:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:45:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8e293c05231@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204170923130.29728-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, David P. Summers wrote:
> Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can 
> easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the 
> skin (or more than a meter or two of air).

Hm, don't alpha particles have even less range than beta? I remember
something like centimeter scale ranges in air.

Of course, they won't penetrate the skin. Still, if you get them into your
body, they are mighty dangerous: the heavier the particle, the greater the
damage. (Alpha particles are helium nuclei, that is, two protons and two
neutrons, and about 8000 times more massive than electrons which make up
beta radiation.)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:19:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:19:24 2002
Subject: [TML] The L-E Digest?
Message-ID: <F82qi8VjUwZcSlVviFl0000bd6b@hotmail.com>

In mail, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) asked:

>Nah, if everyone who goofed did that who'd be posting? :-)

<tongue-in-cheek>
Um, just you?
</tongue-in-cheek>

Jeff.
"Who ordered the Meat Feast with extra Bantha?" - Pizza the Hutt.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:21:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:21:06 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.220459.6d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Check out how much space *8* tons (mass) of liquid oxygen takes up.
>
> I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?
>
> When I scoop ice from an iceball, I get lots of hydrogen in the form
> of water.  Water is a more compact way to store hydrogen than LH2.  So
> I *keep* the water.  I run the ammonia, methane, or some more water
> through the fuel processor to fill up the smaller LH2 tanks (possibly
> extracting some nitrogen for life support), throw away all the
> methane, and either keep or throw away the ammonia.

You want it because you were making such a fuss about not being able to
use oxygen to convert methane to water and CO2 because you'd lose the
oxygen if you threw away the CO2.

Also, what version of Traveller are you running? Most version have jump
fuel being the majority of the tankage?

>> And you'll have to have to have *seperate* tanks for the 9 tons of
>> water, the 8 tons of LOX, and the 1 ton of LH2.
>
> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
> over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
> LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
> unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
> paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.

Only if the *mass* of the ship doesn't matter in your TU. Because you
are using 9 times the *mass* even if the tank is smaller. Which will
have a major impact on performance.

> The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
> volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
> water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
> upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.

Only at the cost of *not* being able to refuel by scopping at a gas
giant. The atmosphere is 90%+ hydrogen. So unless you carry along all
that extra oxygen (LOX is the easiest way to do so) you can't use
it. Not unless you can store it as LH2. Which you can't do in the water
tanks.

>> Oh yeah, actually, the odds are you'd seperate the methane *first*,
>> simply because it will be the first component of the mix to turn
>> into a gas.
>
> Yep, mainly so I can get rid of it before putting it in the tanks at
> all.  Ammonia I can deal with later, since I don't need highly
> expensive long-term cryogenic tanks to hold ammonia solution.  I can
> separate it later if I want.

No, but you can't use the water for drinking, and it needs special
handling as ammonia water is corrosive.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:21:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:21:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20416.223451.7R6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson writes:
> <Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would 
> work
> reasonably well against just about any weapon.>
>
> Ok, what is the difference between sand and chaff?  I always that chaff was 
> strips of foil cut to a particular length of the
> wavelength of a radar, and the sand in a sandcaster used particles of the 
> correct size to interact with the laser wavelength.  I thought they were 
> the same process.

Nope. The particle size for light wavelengths is *way* too fine. And
the mechanism would be rather different anyway.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20416.221609.5h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/16/02 3:50 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:
>
>> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
>> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
>> over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
>> LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
>> unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
>> paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.
>> 
>> The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
>> volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
>> water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
>> upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.
>> 
>
> Just curious, but what about storing H2 as hydrides?  Don't you get a higher
> density?

But an even worse *mass* penalty than water, ammonia or methane.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:26:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:26:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018999846.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20416.223754.8r1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>> 
>> The particles take a fair amount of energy to melt. While molten they
>> continue to retro-reflect part of the beam and disperse the rest.
>> 
>> They take even more energy to vaporize and form a plasma easily. The
>> plasma is opaque to laser energy and absorbs even *more* of the beam
>> energy.
>
> Now, let's consider a typical example: a typical TTL13 X-ray laser.
> It focuses to a beam 1 cm wide, with an unclear duration; we'll
> assume 100 milliseconds, as that will avoid significant problems with
> the beam impact point moving.  The total beam energy is on the order
> of 400 megajoules, and has a damage value (T4) of 50.

That's a *pulse* energy.

> The target is a 200 dton sphere, with a cross-section of 240 square meters. 
> One can at AV 50 is 320 kilograms.  Since the beam has a cross-section of
> 0.0001 m^2, it actually strikes 0.13 grams of sand.
>
> As it happens, X-rays can go through that much material without even worrying
> about getting it out of the way.  Ignoring that, if we assume the 'sand' is
> synthetic diamond, it has a heat of vaporization of 8 kilojoules.  Further
> ignoring the fact that X-rays don't generally reflect very well, through a
> variety of tricks we'll argue that the actual energy of vaporization is 1
> megajoule (125x greater).
>
> 399 megajoules to go.  Well, perhaps the vapor is opaque.

Well, plasmas tend to be very opaque to many wavelengths. Obviously,
you tune the composition of the "sand" to enhance this.

> Let's add another
> megajoule to the vapor, heating it up to some obscene temperature, and assume
> that 90% of the absorbed energy is lost to immediate reradiation.  The
> remaining 100 kilojoules causes the gas in the path of the laser to explode
> outwards, with an average velocity of 39 kilometers per second.  1 
> microsecond
> later, the plasma has had its density drop by a factor of around 10, which
> should allow the X-rays to shine through.  Since the power output is 4
> megajoules per microsecond, the total energy absorbed by the sand is maybe 5
> megajoules.  Gee, only another 80x increase in efficiency and we'll actually
> stop the beam.

Excuse me? 4 megajoules per microsecond is 4 *terawatts* beam beam. 

A 4 megajoule *pulse that lasts a microsecond *is* apt to get stopped.
Or at least badly dispersed.

>> Well, in space, outside of low orbit, stuff like sand and "smoke" tend
>> to be rather more effective, because they don't get left behind. 
>
> Well, if you don't use any thrust and use gravetics to prevent the stuff from
> wandering, sure.

Check the rules. Sand is *specificly* described as getting left behind
if you accelerate.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:27:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:27:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20416.232156.7Z0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Dear Folks -
>
> In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see 
> <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file 
> their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
>
> Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and 
> although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the 
> end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned 
> for a financial year until after you've earned it.
>
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
> timetable works??

For normal people, the tax year runs from Jan 1 to Dec 31. Employers
have until Jan 31 to get the W-2 forms (which show how much you made
and how much tax was withheld) to you. And you've got until April 15th
to file your taxes for the year that ended Dec 31.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:29:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:29:07 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20416.150551.5I5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <00ec01c1e624$f8803f10$1f9e15ac@warrior>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?


> In mail you write:
>
> > ObTrav:  There is a (Star Trek created?) stereotype of
> > the engineer who can fix anything but no one can tell
> > how he does it.  What other stereotypes are common in
> > your games?
>
> The "engineer as wizard" stereotype has existed *at least* as long as
> widespread use of steam engines. And some would argue it goes back to
> the old seige engineers of medieval and Roman times.
>

I seem to remember reading somewhere that early artillerists were considered
practioneers of black magic :)



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:57:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:57:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>; from david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au on Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:56:56AM +1000
References: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020416192131.A14539@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:56:56AM +1000,
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> 
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
> timetable works??

You've until 15 April to post your tax return--that is, the
calculation of how much you owe or are owed--for the _last_ year.  So
a few weeks back I posted my return for 1 January-31 December '01.
Ended up owing money, which annoys a lot of people, but not me.

Why?  Because I held onto that money for the duration of the year, and
thus could earn interest on it.  Getting a tax return from the gov't
is another way of saying that you lent it some great sum without
interest.  Who'd want to do that?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The English love making fun of foreigners, whose mere existence they
regard as an enormous jest.                             --Iain Pears

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:59:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:59:45 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020416231641.82811.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417083837.009f5b80@mindspring.com>

At 09:16 AM 4/17/02 +1000, you wrote:

>Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
>are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
>pointy stick :)

Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future leader of men?  :P


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"What are we gonna do tonight Brain?"
"the same thing we do every 4 years Pinky,
Judge Olympic Figure Skating!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 10:01:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 09:01:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half 
>of the original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has 
>elapsed, 1/4 decay in the next half-life period, 1/8 in the 
>half-life after that, etc.
>

then it's not possible to accelerate *any* mesons at all, 
given their half-life.  Almost all of them would be gone 
before they got to the end of the accelerator.

Please contact Los Alamos and inform them that the meson 
accelerator that they have been using since 1968 is a fake.  
It sends beams of mesons out without irradiating the 
accelerator.  The only items that become "hot" are in the 
target area.  Please explain how that is done.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 10:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Apr 17 09:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
Message-ID: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com>

I can think of one good reason for ships to ignore their own '100D Limit', 
the Solomani beating the Vilani, Starships to refuel from Gas Giants, 
Stewards et al to earn seemingly inflated wages and a whole host of other 
'unrealistic' issues with the Official Traveller Universe...

It is a GAME - it is meant to be FUN.

Yes, we can enjoy trying to 'prove' or 'disprove' various facets of 
Traveller "life" based on current knowledge, but please remember that:
(a)not everybody really cares if it is possible in RealLife(tm) to dodge a 
laser 'fired' by someone standing five feet away,
(b)Earth is flat/the center of the Universe; man will never travel quicker 
than 25mph without suffocating; man will never reach the moon; Einstein's 
"Special THEORY of Relativity" is, um, a theory...
(c)we know more now than the Great Ancient Ones wrote the LBBs.

It could just be me, but I sometimes get the impression that we get a little 
wrapped up in discussing the technical aspects of the game and forget that 
it is "just a game".
There is much more information available in the 'public domain' than when 
the first edition of "Traveller" left the printers.  We seem to have people 
from nearly all walks of life in the TML membership (except Lawyers:-), so 
we have a much greater depth and breadth of experience an knowledge to draw 
upon.

Or, to quote the Wise Old Bird...

"Because it is artistically *right*..."

Whinge over, I now return you to your previous incarnations...

Jeff
(By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how 
much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight 
slows the game a little..?)

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 10:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 09:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204171605.EGN07388@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug gives advice:

>>Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
>>are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
>>pointy stick :)
>
>Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future 
>leader of men?  :P
>

God help them.  I'm almost of the opinion that officers 
should be enlisted first.  Even academy cadets should 
complete 2 years before going to the academy.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:36:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:36:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not?
In-Reply-To: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204171212050.4680-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Jeff Rowse wrote:
> It is a GAME - it is meant to be FUN.

But these discussions ARE fun!

> (a)not everybody really cares if it is possible in RealLife(tm) to dodge a 
> laser 'fired' by someone standing five feet away,

Nobody really has to care; the discussion can and should be ignored
whenever it gets in the way of actually playing the game.  Very few posts
to this list are accompanied by the message, "Warning: we recommend
avoiding Traveller until this issue is resolved.  Proceed at yourown risk."

> (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how 
> much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight 
> slows the game a little..?)

Roll to see if I eat your spleen.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:37:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:37:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020417203822.1ab3cb30.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Roseberry wrote:
> Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
> Architects fees? Anyone?

Slartibartfast

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20416.223754.8r1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019061859.2225.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
>
> > 399 megajoules to go.  Well, perhaps the vapor is opaque.
> 
> Well, plasmas tend to be very opaque to many wavelengths. Obviously,
> you tune the composition of the "sand" to enhance this.

Right, I'm assuming this.
> 
> Excuse me? 4 megajoules per microsecond is 4 *terawatts* beam beam. 

Sure.  A 400 megajoule pulse lasting 100 microseconds.
> 
> A 4 megajoule *pulse that lasts a microsecond *is* apt to get stopped.
> Or at least badly dispersed.

Agreed.  The problem is we have a 400 megajoule pulse that lasts 100
microseconds.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:47:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:47:44 2002
Subject: [TML] LAMPF - a meson facility!
In-Reply-To: <200204170105.EFJ07268@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019061201.9084.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> ObTrav:  After your ship is hit by a meson weapon, assuming 
> you're still alive, is the ship a radioactive wreck?

Not in the area people are still alive.  Energy required to make appreciably
radioactive far exceeds energy required to kill.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:48:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:48:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F169fBi0SHfgcSoVW04000117c4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019060914.2767.ajackson@ping>

Sam D writes:
> Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to 
> enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?

No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in state
courts work.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:49:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:49:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019061329.2060.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> then it's not possible to accelerate *any* mesons at all, 
> given their half-life.  Almost all of them would be gone 
> before they got to the end of the accelerator.

Nah.  The half-life of charged mesons is sufficiently long that if you generate
them in the accelerator, they can be accelerated to a reasonable energy before
too many of them decay.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not?
Message-ID: <20020417185524.030254508@mo120usjc.palm.net>

Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
__________
>On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Jeff Rowse wrote: 
>> It is a GAME - it is meant to be FUN. 
>But these discussions ARE fun! 

In a bizzare fashion, yes.  They do tend to chase down rat holes self-repecting rats would turn their noses up at.

Trust me on this. Not only have I been down those rat holes, I've given tours and probably have squatters rights by now.

>> (a)not everybody really cares if it is possible in RealLife(tm) to dodge a  
>> laser 'fired' by someone standing five feet away, 
>Nobody really has to care; the discussion can and should be ignored 
>whenever it gets in the way of actually playing the game.  Very few posts 
>to this list are accompanied by the message, "Warning: we recommend 
>avoiding Traveller until this issue is resolved.  Proceed at yourown risk." 
> 
>> (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how  
>> much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight  
>> slows the game a little..?) 
>Roll to see if I eat your spleen. 

Ah...but they let you use your Really KEWL medical rules.  Break out the transplant rules!

"Wadda yous mean you shoot out his liver!?! Doc sez I'm on da wagon till I get a new one.  If you think I'm mean drunk, wait to see me in a DT fit."

> 
>	Gregory Kettler 
>	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before." 
>			--Dave, KODT 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New Filk
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417092008.009ea920@mindspring.com>

I put this up on my Live Journal, but it didn't get much response there, so 
I'd thought I'd post it here.

Flaming Eye

To the tune of "The Red Queen" by Leigh Ann Hussey
(note: the scansion and exact wording were lifted from the Annwn version of 
Bob Kanefsky's "Black Flag" parody, so there may be slight variations from 
the original.)


And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space
Lift up your mugs and cheer
We'll put the Terrans in their place
We're Vilani privateers

Full three thousand years and more we owned all these suns
'Till the bloody Terrans barged right in and put us on the run
But not all have bended knee, some of us are roaming free
A hidden fight that's the key, fought with blade and gun

(Chorus)
And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space
Lift up your mugs and cheer
We'll put the Terrans in their place
We're Vilani privateers
With the plasma beams burning blue
We'll burn that freighter through and through
Take the ship and kill the crew
Beware the flaming eye

Now some try to change their fate with money no longer theirs
And others try to awe by putting on stately airs
But nothing can change the fate
Of peasant or of potentate
Out the lock they go, for no one really cares

(Chorus)

We hear they're hunting us, we think that's OK
We're all itching for the chance to blow traitors away
The Terran Navy, it's to laugh
It's Vilani hulls, by more than half
We know the tricks of the battle staff, and quietly slip away

(Chorus)

It's "target lo! hard a' port, making for the jumping line"
Of escorts or Q ship tricks there isn't any sign
We'll cut that freighter's hull apart
And sell off all the useful parts
Including all the crewmens' hearts, if we make market on time

(Chorus)

And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space . . .

(Instrumental)

And we sell the loot
And we sell our slaves
Awash in riches we party on for days
Then the Captain calls us all back on board
The patrols are getting closer
Our war goes on even as we get old
It won't end until I'm good and dead and cold
Even then I'll live on in my comrades' eyes
Or as a meal, our shugulli's real
And he's already come to look me over

(slowly)
And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space . . .

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.192354.1u3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEEDDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> >> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were 
> "boiled" off.
> >
> > Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
> > a nitpick.
> 
> I was going by the figures in the post I was responding to, which had a
> higher density listed for Mercury.

No, they didn't. I quoted 5.43 for Mercury, 5.52 for Earth.

Regds

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:34:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:34:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20417.014121.1p5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
>> There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes are for
>> mesons that are *not* in motion.
>
> They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half of the
> original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has elapsed, 1/4 decay in
> the next half-life period, 1/8 in the half-life after that, etc.

Also, 1/4 decay in *half* the half-life. And 1/8 decay in half of
*that*. Etc.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:35:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:35:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416222132.009fa690@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20417.024825.4W7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>         I appreciate the comments of everyone who has replied to my initial 
> post.  I gather that sandcasters would work best
> against optical wavelengths and might require a lot of sand, but are not 
> entirely infeasible.  Particle beams and X-ray lasers appear to be another 
> kettle of fish entirely.  Years ago, before the internet, before I knew 
> anyone besides myself might be interested in space combat, I checked out a 
> copy of The Effects of Nuclear Weapons.  In it I found some interesting 
> tables on the 1/2 value thickness of various material versus various forms 
> of radiaton.  The 1/2 value thickness for X-rays was approximately 20 grams 
> per square cm for heavy metals.  But that was for a solid plate of 
> iron.  If the beam had to pass through a long distance (a few hundred 
> meters) would that make any difference?  I am wondering if a long 
> scattering distance would reduce the required density.

Actually, as long as there are 20 grams of heavy metal in a 1 cm square
column between you and the x-ray source, it still work. Doesn't matter
if the column is 1 mm tall or 1 km tall. 

That's how the atmosphere can shield from x-rays. It's not very dense,
but there's a *lot* of it. 

Ditto for how smoke blocks sight. It's a bunch of *really* fine
particles. Not much density, but there are so many that any light
trying to get to you from the other side always runs into a particle. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:47:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:47:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 18:28:14 GMT Daylight Time, 
texasredshift@hotmail.com writes:


> At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
> Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
> judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
> 
> Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
> Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?
> 
> What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?
> 
> Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
> 

I have to say that in MTU (and I make no claim that this is transferable to 
anyone elses) there is no such thing as Imperial law in the sense of 
statutes. Instead all decisions are driven by the precedent of rulings by 
Emperors, or their legitimate servants, on the same (or similar) subjects. 

The role of lawyers is to argue precedent or to force the passage of decision 
up the hierarchy of courts until precedent is set. Theoretically the final 
arbiter is the current Emperor, who can set new precedents or overturn old 
ones. Practically the Emperor delegates this role to selected nobles and to 
the moot except in exceptional circumstances.

My courts apply the same burden of proof in both civil and criminal cases, in 
my case "on the balance of probabilities" rather than "beyond reasonable 
doubt". Juries are not a recognised concept and instead panels of nobles 
ranging from one to the entire moot, depending on the case, make decisions 
after hearing argument. It does not take a genius to work out that the system 
is highly open to abuse.

There is no real distinction between civil and criminal law at the Imperial 
level. Instead all cases are treated in the same way and dealt with through 
the same channels. The main difference is that in some cases precedent holds 
that the court should appoint Imperial investigators to gather evidence. In 
other cases the burden of investigation lies entirely with the litigant. 
 
Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 18:28:14 GMT Daylight Time, texasredshift@hotmail.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">At the base of this topic is one key issue:&nbsp; How litigous is the Imperium?<BR>
Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?&nbsp; Or are lawsuits rare and<BR>
judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?<BR>
<BR>
Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?<BR>
Is jury trial available?&nbsp; Are judges elected? Appointed?<BR>
<BR>
What does canon have to say on this?&nbsp; What do you have to say?<BR>
<BR>
Bill Scheets aka "Tex"<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I have to say that in MTU (and I make no claim that this is transferable to anyone elses) there is no such thing as Imperial law in the sense of statutes. Instead all decisions are driven by the precedent of rulings by Emperors, or their legitimate servants, on the same (or similar) subjects. <BR>
<BR>
The role of lawyers is to argue precedent or to force the passage of decision up the hierarchy of courts until precedent is set. Theoretically the final arbiter is the current Emperor, who can set new precedents or overturn old ones. Practically the Emperor delegates this role to selected nobles and to the moot except in exceptional circumstances.<BR>
<BR>
My courts apply the same burden of proof in both civil and criminal cases, in my case "on the balance of probabilities" rather than "beyond reasonable doubt". Juries are not a recognised concept and instead panels of nobles ranging from one to the entire moot, depending on the case, make decisions after hearing argument. It does not take a genius to work out that the system is highly open to abuse.<BR>
<BR>
There is no real distinction between civil and criminal law at the Imperial level. Instead all cases are treated in the same way and dealt with through the same channels. The main difference is that in some cases precedent holds that the court should appoint Imperial investigators to gather evidence. In other cases the burden of investigation lies entirely with the litigant. <BR>
 <BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:48:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:48:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <20417.014121.1p5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net> <20417.014121.1p5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020418082417.B31848@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Also, 1/4 decay in *half* the half-life. And 1/8 decay in half of
> *that*. Etc.

A minor quibble -- 30% decay in the first half of the half life, and
16% decay in 1/4 of the half-life.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:49:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:49:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F169fBi0SHfgcSoVW04000117c4@hotmail.com> from "Sam D" at Apr 17, 2002 02:39:00 PM
Message-ID: <200204172127.g3HLRW601938@localhost.uia.net>

> Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to 
> enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?
> 
> This concept is pretty palatable in the US, because there has to be 
> jurisdiction for a court to hear a case and due process is constitutionally 
> guaranteed.  But is that necessarily the case in the Imperium?

I'm not sure how exactly this would tie in to Traveller, however, there
is a strange situation which has cropped up recently with NAFTA (the
north american free trade agreement). Apparently, there's a section
which states that if nation A (or a jurisdiction thereof) passes a
law which impinges upon the profits (or future profitability) of a
company based in nation B but doing business in nation A, then the
company can sue nation A. The real trick is that this doesn't go
to a court of nation A or nation B. Instead, it goes to a private
three-judge tribunal, one judge appointed from each nation, and
the third judge (the chairman of the tribunal) being appointed by
both. Their proceedings are secret (no reporters allowed), and they
routinely hand out multi-million dollar judgements.

As just one recent example, there's a gasoline additive formerly
used in California which helps oxygenate the gas and helps it
burn more cleanly. However, the stuff is toxic, and one drop
getting into the groundwater can ruin acres of water. So California
decided to phase the stuff out. However, the Canadian company that
produces it cried foul, sued through NAFTA, and if my understanding
is correct, the 3-judge tribunal sided with them.

The reason the US wanted this special tribunal in place is because
we don't trust the Mexican courts, however, we've already used the
same tactic against Mexico. Again, if my understanding is correct,
an American company paid kickbacks to some officials in the
Mexican government to obtain a permit to use a certain area of
their land as a waste dump (not sure if it's a toxic dump or what).
Anyway, so the locals got angry and passed a local ordinance to
stop what the company was doing. So the company sued Mexico through
NAFTA and won.

From what little I've read, the Mexicans are unhappy about this
whole situation, the Canadians are uneasy, and the USA is a bit
conflicted, some people claiming that private business should not
have to shoulder the costs of environmental protection while others
point out that in the first example, if the company producing the
gasoline additive were based in the USA, it would not have been able
to sue California for passing a law to phase out the additive, but
because the company was Canadian, it could sue through NAFTA, the
net result being that foreign companies have more rights than
domestic. So basically, NAFTA seems to make it better to do business
abroad than to do business at home, and it also makes it much more
difficult for politicians to pass environmentally protective laws
because of the potential legal/financial ramification brought by
foreign companies who's nations are signators to the treaty.

How all this relates to Traveller, I'm not sure. It may be that
worlds will use a system of treaties and joint tribunals to
negotiate their legal disputes. However, because of the canonical
existence of the nobility and the existance of subsector and sector
government, I would tend to find it more likely that there would
be a level to the Imperial judicial system which supercedes the
authority of nation-worlds. This is a bit tricky, because it takes
some degree of sovereignty away from individual worlds, so how
exactly one would draw the lines is an interesting question.
Somebody should really write a book or article focusing on the
Imperial legal system, preferably somebody already well versed in
International Law, but also mindful of, say, late Roman history
or whatever society people would consider analogous to the Imperial
model.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:51:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:51:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417010106.E5149279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204180015090.24858-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Stephen Tempest writes:

>Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Somewhere around 1,500 quadrillions would be my guess (15 trillion people
with an average of Cr10,000).

Andrew Jackson wirtes:

>Hm...my figure seems to be at 103PCr/year, which is well within the margin of
>error.  Of course, there's a fairly significant problem with the old Atlas of
>the Imperium data -- there's only around 9,000 imperial worlds, not the 11,000
>there's supposed to be.

Do you mean 9,000 systems rather than the 10,000 there's supposed to be?
IIRC the figures are 11,000 worlds in 10,000 systems, implying quite a lot
of systems with multiple worlds (But don't ask me to back this up with a
quote, I've no idea where I got that notion). I admit that we've seen
precious little evidence of multiple worlds elsewhere in canon (But when I
get around to doing my planned writeup of Deneb, I'm going to change
that).


Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:53:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:53:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417010106.E5149279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417165617.00a9ea90@mail.pi.se>

Hello everyone!

>Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

<snip>

>Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
>that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
>An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
>perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
>planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
>come up eventually.

There is a simple way to make planets more dense without changing the basic 
composition. Bigger terrestrial worlds will have higher density because of 
compression, which is far more effective for bigger bodies. Just adding 
more rock will make the rock more dense.

Earth has a compressed density higher than Mercury, but the uncompressed 
density is considerably less. If a planet had the composition of Mercury 
and the radius of Earth, which potentially could happen in an decently 
iron-rich inner system with a major collision between two large rocky 
worlds, that planet would have even greater density than Mercury has, say, 
somewhere between 6 and 6.5. If a world with the composition of Earth is 
50% greater in radius it also would likely have higher density than Earth.

On the other hand, if we think of an Earth-size world with the composition 
of Mars, it would still have a density of say, 4.5 to 5. I'd argue a more 
common problem in RPGs is that densities for Earth-like worlds are too low. 
(Big world with low density to generate decent gravity-style.)

If we list some solar system bodies, with the compressed density first and 
the uncompressed density afterwards:

Mercury 5.4     5.3
Venus   5.2     4.3
Earth           5.5     4.5
Moon            3.3     3.2
Mars            3.9     3.8

Incidentally, this also means that the GURPS divisions into say, "low-iron" 
and "medium-iron" worlds is rather non-useful for terrestrial worlds of 
differing sizes than Earth.

When it comes to high densities, superjovians, brown dwarves and red dwarf 
stars are other examples of where a 100D-radius may be considerably 
different from a version based on tidal differential force. A small red 
dwarf star can have a density 50-100 times higher than the Sun - or any 
material on Earth, for that matter. A medium-size brown dwarf more than a 
billion years old could easily have a density several times greater than 
Earths average.

> > The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> > much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
>Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
>in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
>superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

A possible other reason is that Mercury experienced, just like Earth, major 
impacts which blew off quite a deal of the surface.

When it comes to hot superjovians, their escape velocity due to high 
gravity is enough to keep gasses from escaping. Those gas giants 
will  probably be bigger in radii than normal outer system gas giants can 
be, because of the energy they receive from the star. There was a nice 
paper on 51 Pegasi's inner planet, but I can't find it right now. If anyone 
is interested, mail me off-list and I'll provide the link when I find it...

>Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
>message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
>need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
>all.

I believe emphasis has its points, but emphasizing too many words, say one 
in ten, makes posts difficult to read without reading in a "tone" of the 
post. I usually overemphasize like _this_ far too often. ,-)

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:54:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:54:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20417.024825.4W7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019073068.7515.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Actually, as long as there are 20 grams of heavy metal in a 1 cm square
> column between you and the x-ray source, it still work. Doesn't matter
> if the column is 1 mm tall or 1 km tall. 

Doesn't really need to be heavy metal, heavy elements are a bit better, but the
difference is not terribly impressive.  However, a really thick barrier might
reduce the ability to penetrate armor by refraction, not sure to what degree
X-rays can be refracted without being absorbed.

20g/cm^2 sounds a bit high for typical x-rays, though.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:55:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:55:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
 <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417154328.0227e168@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:20 PM 4/16/2002, Stephen Tempest wrote:
>Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Yes, many years ago.  The figure was derived from the old DGP sector files 
using CT (Striker and TCS) figures.  I had MCr 219,474,958,700 for the 
Gross Imperial Product.  SO, no - the Imperium could not (in a million 
years) afford to build a jump-capable planet.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:56:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:56:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters (2nd try)
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417224940.00aac690@mail.pi.se>

Hello everyone!

>Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

<snip>

>Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
>that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
>An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
>perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
>planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
>come up eventually.

There is a simple way to make planets more dense without changing the basic 
composition. Bigger terrestrial worlds will have higher density because of 
compression, which is far more effective for bigger bodies. Just adding 
more rock will make the rock more dense.

Earth has a compressed density higher than Mercury, but the uncompressed 
density is considerably less. If a planet had the composition of Mercury 
and the radius of Earth, which potentially could happen in an decently 
iron-rich inner system with a major collision between two large rocky 
worlds, that planet would have even greater density than Mercury has, say, 
somewhere between 6 and 6.5. If a world with the composition of Earth is 
50% greater in radius it also would likely have higher density than Earth.

On the other hand, if we think of an Earth-size world with the composition 
of Mars, it would still have a density of say, 4.5 to 5. I'd argue a more 
common problem in RPGs is that densities for Earth-like worlds are too low. 
(Big world with low density to generate decent gravity-style.)

If we list some solar system bodies, with the compressed density first and 
the uncompressed density afterwards:

Mercury 5.4     5.3
Venus   5.2     4.3
Earth           5.5     4.5
Moon            3.3     3.2
Mars            3.9     3.8

Incidentally, this also means that the GURPS divisions into say, "low-iron" 
and "medium-iron" worlds is rather non-useful for terrestrial worlds of 
differing sizes than Earth.

When it comes to high densities, superjovians, brown dwarves and red dwarf 
stars are other examples of where a 100D-radius may be considerably 
different from a version based on tidal differential force. A small red 
dwarf star can have a density 50-100 times higher than the Sun - or any 
material on Earth, for that matter. A medium-size brown dwarf more than a 
billion years old could easily have a density several times greater than 
Earths average.

> > The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> > much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
>Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
>in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
>superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

A possible other reason is that Mercury experienced, just like Earth, major 
impacts which blew off quite a deal of the surface.

When it comes to hot superjovians, their escape velocity due to high 
gravity is enough to keep gasses from escaping. Those gas giants 
will  probably be bigger in radii than normal outer system gas giants can 
be, because of the energy they receive from the star. There was a nice 
paper on 51 Pegasi's inner planet, but I can't find it right now. If anyone 
is interested, mail me off-list and I'll provide the link when I find it...

>Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
>message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
>need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
>all.

I believe emphasis has its points, but emphasizing too many words, say one 
in ten, makes posts difficult to read without reading in a "tone" of the 
post. I usually overemphasize like _this_ far too often. ,-)

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:57:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:57:22 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020416222702.02624008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3CBDD666.1080706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> At 02:40 PM 4/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>> William Lane wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the 
>>> list. to
>>> everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off 
>>> topic
>>> info.
>>
>>
>> That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
>> XML to Cobol and back...
> 
> 
> 
> Way cool!  Can I add this to my Traveller Maintenance Blues page?
> <http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html> 
> 
> 
Why surely!

Hey everybody...this is blanket permission to put anything I write here 
on your web sites, if you want.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:58:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:58:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F18T2Y89RdrUnR65Cbk00002a25@hotmail.com>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Sam D writes:
> > Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to
> > enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign 
>judgments?
>
>No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
>difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in 
>state
>courts work.

I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home turf, 
because that is the only place you can collect.  That should discourage 
litigation, and make a lot of lawyers rich with asset protection seminars.  
Maybe some worlds would become big Switzerlands where the wealthy hide their 
dough.

So I guess you would sue free traders where there ship is registered, 
because that is where title would be?  Then how do you actually get 
possession if other worlds are free to ignore the judgments of other worlds?

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:58:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Marsh)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:58:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <F53kOhpWL26mtgK3jca000025a8@hotmail.com>

Just to muddy the waters a bit. I am not so sure that the ovaries are that 
more sensitive to radiation than, say, testes but that a womans lifetime 
supply of egg cells are produced at the onset of puberty and the ovaries is 
the time released delivery system. The older the woman the older the eggs. 
This is unlike the testes which make em fresh as they go.

The woman's eggs are more sensitive in that the older the eggs the longer 
the possible exposure to radioactivity over the years.

However, I would think all things being equal a woman's ovaries being 
internal vs testes being external would make the man's reproductive cells 
more prone to radiation induced errors.

ObTrav: Perhaps on a world where there was a high background level of 
radiation there might exist a market for healthy donor eggs from another 
planet.


>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: Re: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:25:31 +0300 (EEST)
>
>On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, David P. Summers wrote:
> > Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can
> > easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the
> > skin (or more than a meter or two of air).
>
>Hm, don't alpha particles have even less range than beta? I remember
>something like centimeter scale ranges in air.
>
>Of course, they won't penetrate the skin. Still, if you get them into your
>body, they are mighty dangerous: the heavier the particle, the greater the
>damage. (Alpha particles are helium nuclei, that is, two protons and two
>neutrons, and about 8000 times more massive than electrons which make up
>beta radiation.)
>
>--
>Mikko Parviainen
>"I quote signatures."
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


th

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:59:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:59:44 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020417.130803.-189643.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 08:39:43 -0700 Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> At 09:16 AM 4/17/02 +1000, you wrote:
> 
> >Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
> >are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
> >pointy stick :)
> 
> Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future leader 
> of men?  :P
> 
> Douglas E. Berry 

Nah, he's just a Butter Bar wanna be.

Like Lt. Gorman in Aliens

Hey Top, you take the men in, I'll just watch the camera's, and make sure
my boots don't get scuffed, oh, and once your in the meat grinder I'll be
here to lead you out.

Yes Sir, were on it. Vasquez you take point.


Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:00:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:00:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEICCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Pions can be created by the collision of matter and antimatter.
The creation time can be tightly controlled.  So the start point
for acceleration to relativistic speeds is therefore controlled.

It requires far less handwaving than that required for plasma/fusion
weapons.

Neither of the latter can produce a "bolt" of plasma that
can fly downrange, in air or in vacuum.  No guide beams, etc, 
are going to help.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:01:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:01:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204170923130.29728-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204170923130.29728-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8e39ddf9659@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:25 AM +0300 4/17/02, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, David P. Summers wrote:
>>  Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can
>>  easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the
>>  skin (or more than a meter or two of air).
>
>Hm, don't alpha particles have even less range than beta? I remember
>something like centimeter scale ranges in air.

Yeah.

>
>Of course, they won't penetrate the skin. Still, if you get them into your
>body, they are mighty dangerous: the heavier the particle, the greater the
>damage. (Alpha particles are helium nuclei, that is, two protons and two
>neutrons, and about 8000 times more massive than electrons which make up
>beta radiation.)

Energy is how heavy and how fast.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:02:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:02:32 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <20416.215513.5m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.215513.5m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8e39e6db7f9@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:55 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 1:28 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in
>>>   > near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near
>>>>   misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a
>>>>   single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?
>>>
>>>We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
>>>outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.
>>
>>  We are looking.  There is a program underway to catalog Earth
>>  crossing asteroids....
>
>Yes, but they are looking for the *big* ones, not the measly little
>hundred meter jobs. Detecting those would be nice, but if one hit it
>wouldn't be much worse than a big nuke.

Well, as you say, they would look for them if they could, so the 
original issue is we look for what we can see is valid.....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:03:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:03:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20417.014254.3E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20417.014254.3E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8e39f21e24f@[143.232.119.186]>

>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 7:00 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>   > The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also
>>>>   true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to
>>>>   another will depend on how far apart they are.
>>>
>>>You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
>>>depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
>>>ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
>>>forces).
>>
>>  I'm not sure what force you are talking about.  The force on any one
>>  part of the ship is the force of gravity.  Tidal forces are the
>>  relative difference in forces between different parts of an object.
>
>The "tidal forces" are due to a combination of gravity *and* motion.
>
>Remember, the ship is assumed to be in "free fall" (ie freely
>responding to gravity in some sort of orbit) when you figure the tidal
>acceleration due to the body the ship is orbiting (Note: I'm using
>"orbit" loosely, to include things like parabolic and hyperbolic
>trajectories)
>
>The "tidal forces" are due to differences in the strength of the
>primary's field and due to the motion of the ship in it's orbit.
>
>The magnitude of the forces depends not on the size of the *orbiting*
>body, but on the distance from the center of mass of that body, and
>what direction you are from the center relative to the line connecting
>primary and satellite.
>
>So, at a given distance from earth, the tidal forces at the center of
>mass of a ship due to Earth will be *zero*. At they will increase as
>you move away from that point. The direction and magnitude of the
>forces depends on the distance from that center and upon the direction
>relative to the line joining that point to the center of the Earth.
>
>Anything "attached" to the ship is subject to those forces.
>
>The forces will be the same at 100 meters in a given direction from the
>center of the ship whether the ship is a tiny scout with a pole
>sticking out in that direction or or 1 km long ship with that point
>being inside the ship.
>
>Secondary effects due to the mass distribution of the ship will modify
>those forces. But it's not the "size" of the ship per se that
>determines the strength or direction of the forces.

Motion has nothing to do with it.  If you take a ship and hold it 
stationary wrt the planetary body it will still encounter tidal 
forces.  If you had so much thrust that you could hold you ship 
stationary near a black hole, tidal forces can still tear the ship 
apart (and/or squeeze it together).

Lets look at this more generally.  Gravity changes with distance. 
That means that things that are at different spots experience 
different gravitational forces.  If these things are different 
objects, then their forces due to gravity (and their accelerations) 
are just different.

If these things are part of a rigid object, they can't have different 
accelerations and forces occur trying to pull the object apart (along 
the axis toward the body, it get squeezed together along the 
perpendicular axis).  This is the tidal force (or on aspect of it, it 
can also turn objects around, etc).  The bigger the object is, the 
further the different parts are apppart, the bigger the differences 
in the force of gravity, the  greater the tidal force is.

You are also being loose with the difference between tidal forces and 
tidal acceleration.  Different forces would produce different 
accelerations in different parts of the body if they weren't 
compensated by internal forces in the body (unless it is within the 
Roche limit and the body breaks up).

Getting to the original point.  The quantity that is close to being 
an explanation of the 100 diam limit is the gravitational gadient 
(the rate at which the force of gravity changes with distance).  Now 
this is, of course, is directly related to the tidal force (the tidal 
force depends directly on this and the size of an object) so some 
call it a tidal <this or that>.  I happen to think the gravitational 
gradient gives more intuitive feel for what the quantity represents.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:04:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:04:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes (was: Quick Query on US Tax Returns)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEDLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417162722.022054a8@mail.qrc.com>

At 08:31 PM 4/16/2002, Andy Brick wrote:
>ObTrav: What about tax returns in the Imperium?

I've tried various schemes in my Traveller games, and the thing that worked 
best was to ignore it entirely.  Here's the way it works IMTU:

The Imperium collects taxes from member worlds; as part of their 
membership, worlds agree to many things.  This includes the requirement 
that the world will pay taxes to the Imperium based on a percentage of the 
world's assessed Gross Planetary Product (GPP).  Most worlds are taxed at 
about 1% of their GPP; the exact rate may vary from world to world 
depending on the details (for example, a TL-1 world with a barter economy 
may not pay taxes at all).  Special taxes may also be assessed from time to 
time (for example, a war emergency tax); tax relief may also be provided in 
some cases.

The Imperial bureaucracy is responsible for setting tax rates, assessing 
GPPs, and ensuring the money is collected into the treasury.  In general, 
these operations are routine: GPPs are determined by the IISS Imperial 
Grand Survey and are generally well-known; world governments remit their 
taxes and the Imperial government has funds with which to 
function.  Enforcement (and the settlement of disputes) is the 
responsibility of the Imperial Nobility, who may be able to set policy 
(depending on their status and area of responsibility) and can call on 
Imperial resources (Navy, Marines, Army) to enforce it.

Individual citizens are not responsible for any taxes to the Imperium; 
there is no per-capita or personal income tax at the Imperial 
level.  Planet-bound corporations also do not pay Imperial taxes.  However, 
member worlds are free to tax their corporations and residents however they 
see fit; different worlds have different policies, and probably every tax 
or revenue-generation scheme that has ever been conceived is in operation 
somewhere in the Imperium.  Different worlds may have different ideas about 
who can be taxed (many worlds, particularly those with sealed environments, 
levy a tax on everyone who visits the world).

Active Imperial military, starship crews, and other travellers who do not 
generally reside on any particular planet do not generally pay 
taxes.  Some, who wish to retain citizenship on a particular world, will 
pay taxes anyway and may even participate in other civic responsibilities 
(voting, civil service, etc.) in absentia.

Imperial corporations (that is, interstellar corporations with an Imperial 
charter) do not pay taxes to any world, nor do they pay taxes to the 
Imperium.  However, long-standing custom dictates that when a corporation 
is granted an Imperial charter, the company gives the Imperial family a 
gift of small fraction (typically around 1%) of it's shares.  Many Imperial 
corporations, particularly those who are not otherwise owned or backed by 
nobles, also give smaller numbers of shares to other important nobles in 
their area of operations.

Thus, while taxes can be a motivating factor for political or economic 
events in my Traveller universe, they are not generally something that the 
PC's have to worry about (unless, of course, they happen to be outside of 
the starport extrality fence on New Hong Kong for Tax Notification Day).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:05:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:05:12 2002
Subject: [TML] The L-E Digest?
References: <F82qi8VjUwZcSlVviFl0000bd6b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBDF4DC.391C2BC0@premier.net>


Jeff Rowse wrote:
> 
>>snip>>
> 
> Jeff.
> "Who ordered the Meat Feast with extra Bantha?" - Pizza the Hutt.

In reference to your .sig file, check this page from BBspot:

http://bbspot.com/News/2002/04/before.html

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:07:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:07:23 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20416.220459.6d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net> <20416.220459.6d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020418082212.A31848@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?
...
> You want it because you were making such a fuss about not being able
> to use oxygen to convert methane to water and CO2 because you'd lose
> the oxygen if you threw away the CO2.

I did.  That doesn't mean I want to have a special LOX tank just in
case I can find hydrogen but not water.  Most of the time I'm going to
be buying water from the starport I'm docked at.  Most of the rest of
the time, I'll be getting it from iceballs or seas.  That's much safer
than gas giant skimming, if nothing else.  In a desperate situation, I
*might* come across a system that has a gas giant but no water.  (The
only plausible cases I can think of involve a gas giant inside the
star's 100D limit) In that case I can still skim hydrogen gas and
process it into the LHyd tank for a 1-parsec jump.  If there is any
water in the GG atmosphere (likely if there is no water elsewhere), I
can collect that too, diffuse though it may be.

In short, I don't need (nor want) LOX.  I don't need (nor want) to
burn methane.  I want *water*.


> Also, what version of Traveller are you running? Most version have jump
> fuel being the majority of the tankage?

GT, but I did the same in MT.  It is *my* Traveller universe, after
all.


> Only if the *mass* of the ship doesn't matter in your TU.

By and large, it doesn't.  In the OTU either.

The single overwhelming factor in determining the running cost of a
ship is the mortgage.  The single overwhelming factor within that is
the cost of jump drives, which depend entirely on *volume*.


> Only at the cost of *not* being able to refuel by scopping at a gas
> giant. The atmosphere is 90%+ hydrogen.

That just means you need to spend a bit longer scooping for the other
stuff, a time which in itself is relatively minor compared to the time
taken to get to and from a gas giant's 100D limit.  But why perform
that dangerous maneuver at all when you've got almost always got
lovely little microgravity water sources nowhere near so deep into a
100D limit?


> No, but you can't use the water for drinking,

I can after I remove the ammonia.


> and it needs special handling as ammonia water is corrosive.

Scary.  You were talking about hundreds of tons of cryogenic LH2.
Ever looked up the MSDS for that?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:11:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:11:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Bomb pumped lasers - was Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20020416221003.EBEC727A30@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16xlxZ-00044d-0W@anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net>

> I seem to recall something about X-ray lasers being developed, but they're not
> exactly weapons-grade.  The old SDI people talked about bomb-pumped X-ray
> lasers, a mechanism which AFAIK has never been successfully demonstrated, not
> that this prevent people from using it in SF.

So how theoretical or handwavium are bomb-pumped lasers? Is it just that we haven't developed the technology to successfully produce them, or is it that they're physically not possible?

Rob.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:12:07 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OF8A9C8510.72B94182-ON85256B9D.004D468D@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBD717E.1040301@magpiesnest.co.uk>

William Lane wrote:

 >
 >>> has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a
 >>> line at wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.
 >>>
 >
 >> Certainly have Bill (though now I tend to use JAXP, which is
 >> based around
 >>
 > Xerces but has differences). Send me your >questions and I will do
 >  my best to answer them for you.
 >
 > Here is what im doing im developing a java application that reads
 > an xml file and parses it into 3 seperate COBOL data files. the
 > cobol group eventually runs their apps and uses the data from
 > these flat files. once they are through they send them back to
 > me. i then want to parse these 3 files into a single new xml file.
 >
 > i have gotten to where i am creating the new document. i can append 
children on it ect.. ect..
 >
 > however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to 
actually be
 > written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im new to XML 
and Xerces
 > is not the best documented thing i have ever worked with. i was 
looking at
 > maybe using the serializer to send a outPutStream through it. but 
it would
 > seem to me that xerces should have a way of building this document 
out on
 > the drive.
 >
IMHO, the Serializer is the best bet because it will control the data 
structure better than writing direct to a FileOutputStream



-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk

 > > children on it ect.. ect..
 >
 > however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to
 > actually be written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im
 >  new to XML and Xerces is not the best documented thing i have
 > ever worked with. i was looking at maybe using the serializer to
 > send a outPutStream through it. but it would seem to me that
 > xerces should have a way of building this document out on the
 > drive.
 >
IMHO, the Serializer is the best bet because it will control the data 
structure better than writing direct to a FileOutputStream (although 
you can certainly do that if you like). The thing to remember is that 
when it is built an XML file is simply an ordinary text file with an 
".xml" extension instead of a ".txt" extension.

What I tend to do is use the DocumentFactory to create a new XML 
document, pile in the data by adding the nodes one by one, then grab 
the file I want to create (or update), delete the original (because 
its easier than setting a file lock) and write out the new file to the 
same filename. It isn't how it ought to be done, but I find it makes 
life easier.

Probably though, it would be worth your while taking a white paper off 
the www.java.sun.com page and seeing how it "should be" done. That way 
you are not just hacking code the way I do.

-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org> <3CBC9A4C.4000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CBD7023.2090608@magpiesnest.co.uk>

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> William Lane wrote:
> 
>>
>> Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the 
>> list. to
>> everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
>> info.
> 
> 
> That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
> XML to Cobol and back...
> 
> oBTRav> Captain finds engineer hip deep in the Jump drive controller 
> with an exceptionally old-looking piece of hardware in his hands.
> 
> Captain: "Good lord, Scottie! That's a jump *tape* reader! What is that 
> antique doing on my jump drive??"
> 
> Engineer: "Well Captain, we cannae find the right components to rrepair 
> the drive controller. Urgvark" he points to a crazed looking Vargr 
> assistant engineer, "...found this in a antique shop. We're tying it 
> into the saircuit right now."
> 
> C: "But how will we control it? I haven't seen a jump tape in my life 
> that wasn't in a museum!"
> 
> E:"Well Captain, I have a writing head from a holocorder here, we can 
> connect it to the main computer, and have it translate the control 
> instructions from the astrogation program to the correct patterns that a 
> jump tape would have. It should work, in theory, sah. " Shouts "OK 
> Urgvark! Give me some power..."
> 
> <SNAP> <Pop fsssssshhhhhh> "Turn it off! Turn it off!"
> 
> E: Through the smoke..."Ahh captain, we're going ta need some morrre 
> time..."
> 
> C: weeps.
> 
> 

Keyboard kill !!! And a waste of coffee :(

-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:21:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:21:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
 <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417154328.0227e168@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3CBDFF31.826843F6@premier.net>


Derek Wildstar wrote:
> 
> At 05:20 PM 4/16/2002, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> >Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?
> 
> Yes, many years ago.  The figure was derived from the old DGP sector files
> using CT (Striker and TCS) figures.  I had MCr 219,474,958,700 for the
> Gross Imperial Product.  SO, no - the Imperium could not (in a million
> years) afford to build a jump-capable planet.

Not even if they cashed in Betty Shugili (r) points from boxtops of
Groatburger Helper (r)? ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F18T2Y89RdrUnR65Cbk00002a25@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019084922.7419.ajackson@ping>

Sam D writes:
> >
> >No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
> >difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in 
> >state
> >courts work.
> 
> I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home turf, 
> because that is the only place you can collect.

Nah, if the defendant has a local office (sales outlet, whatever) you can sue
the local unit.

> So I guess you would sue free traders where there ship is registered, 
> because that is where title would be?  Then how do you actually get 
> possession if other worlds are free to ignore the judgments of other
> worlds? 

Well, as long as the free trader never visits the port where the judgement
against it was made, no problem.  If you ever visit that port, they can impound
your ship.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:24:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:24:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>

At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
>that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)

Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  Can 
I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
minds of men? I don't think so!

I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                     -Adam West, as Batman 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020418093454.A32118@freeman.little-possums.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!

Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
best minds in medical science?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020418095314.B32118@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Please contact Los Alamos and inform them that the meson accelerator
> that they have been using since 1968 is a fake.

I think you'll find that their mesons are *charged*, and furthermore
are moving at a really good clip when they are created.


> It sends beams of mesons out without irradiating the accelerator.

I bet it does.  It just doesn't induce significant amounts of
radioactivity in the walls of the beam tube.  Besides which, the
*density* of energy release is much greater in the target region
because the mesons collide with stuff, not decay there.


> The only items that become "hot" are in the target area.  Please
> explain how that is done.

It's pretty simple.  Pi mesons interact quite strongly with matter.
When the (remaining) mesons reach the target area, they don't "decay"
there.  They *collide*.  Collision products (and secondary products)
include a whole zoo of particles, and a few odd isotopes many of which
are radioactive with significant half-lives.

This is very different from the description of meson guns in
Traveller.  Traveller meson move unimpeded through matter, have
lifetimes instead of half-lives, and those lifetimes can be controlled
to within one part per trillion.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 18:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 17:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CBE0CC8.5010706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the 
>> fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
> 
> 
> Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
> injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  
> Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud 
> the minds of men? I don't think so!
> 
> I want my money (along with my spleen) back.
> 

But you got that back, didn't you?

Maybe that's the super power...'Grows Spleens'.

Nobody ever said it would be a GOOD superpower...;-P

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 17:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <3CBE0CC8.5010706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAGEIOCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Bruce and Doug complain about their lack of superpowers
<snip>

How do you think I feel?  I've straddled many a
thermonuclear warhead, in the forlorn hopes that
something would happen (super mutant children, for
one).

Nothing!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <p04330106b8e3cd72c219@[143.232.119.186]>

>At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the 
>>fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
>
>Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and 
>even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead 
>tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not 
>even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>
>I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that 
gets powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an 
"accident", so maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but 
whether it was "accidental".  :-)

(Though I wonder, how do you know you don't have any super powers? 
Have you _tried_ to change the course of a might river?)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <20020418093454.A32118@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417180901.009fd010@mindspring.com>

At 09:34 AM 4/18/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
> > Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> > tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> > even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>
>Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
>best minds in medical science?

That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm 
going to sue somebody.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:26:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20417.015559.9o2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFADPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi

> Also, the post I was replying to had the wrong density for Mercury, and
> had it being denser than earth. I didn't check my references until
> someone pointed out the error.

You were replying to my post, and the densities were correct there.

> The sort of normalcy I'm talking about is based soely on elemental
> abundances and the way a cloud of dust and gas collapses to form
> planets.

<lots of snippage>

> So only systems with *really* skewed elemental abundances will have
> worlds with densities much higher than Earth's. Or other *really* weird
> situations. The pulsatr planets, rocky planets that are insanely close
> to their primary (work out what would be left of Earth after a few
> billion years at 0.1 AU from the sun, for example). etc.

Well, since no-one yet fully understands the exact mechanisms by which said
cloud collapses, and since no one has yet surveyed any solar system in
detail other than our own, I'd say you were making some pretty big
assumptions about what is normal and what isn't. In addition, whilst
universal elemental abundances may in part define the mean abundance for a
given element in a given solar system, you will get local variations.
Finally, I was not looking at "really skewed" densities - I was looking at a
margin increase in the density of a terrestrial planet to 6g/cc or higher. I
would expect the densities of pulsar planets etc to be much higher than
that.

BTW, as an aside, Red Dwarfs display similar relative elemental abundances
to the Sun, but are many , many times denser.

> But that just showed that orbits weren't as stable as we thought, and
> that large bodies might form close to where the star did.

Not quite my point - this showed planets with volatile gases could survive
in the inner system, which previously had not been thought common nor
"normal". This in turn implies that your basis for "normalcy", i.e. our
solar system, may not be as normal as you think.

> They are still gas giants in most respects.

Off topic a bit this, but Superjovians are not mere gas giants, at least not
in the Jupiter/Saturn/etc sense. They are much larger (though still somewhat
short of Brown Dwarf status), and in these systems they are heated
considerably by virtue of the proximity to their primary.

> Thing is, if it wasn't rare, we'd see more variation in densities of
> objects in this system. Only bodies that get that dense are asteroid
> fragments.

Nonsense. As I am trying to get across to you, you cannot take this solar
system and assume that all other solar systems will be pretty much the same.
This bias is, in fact, a major gripe of mine with Traveller world generation
systems - they are very good at generating systems very similar to our own
but not so good at generating systems which aren't. You are taking a very
Sol-centric view of the universe.

What you are suggesting makes as much sense as examining one species of
insect, say a butterfly, and then assuming that all other species of insect
are very similar if not identical - when in fact they are not.

> The problem is managing to collect all that iron and then get *rid* of
> all the *rock* that had to accumulate with it.

One word - collision. Check out my earlier mail re the formation of the
Earth Moon system by collision with a body roughly equal to Mars. All of the
Moon is formed from the "rocky layer" of both protoplanets. Make the
impactor larger, and hey presto, more rocky material is knocked off into
space, leaving the cohesive core behind.

And collisions are very common early in the history of an accreting cloud,
after all.

> Rules of thumb are expected to work *most* of the time. and that's all
> the 100 diameter limit is.

Exactly - it's a rule of thumb. So don't bother trying to generate an exact
or precise derivation for it - you cannot have it both ways - either it's an
inaccurate rule of thumb, or a precise mathematical law. It can't be both.
You say one thing here, and something completely different at the end of
your mail.

> Sorry, but emphasis can change the meaning of a sentence. And convey
> extra meaning.

Sure. If used sparingly, and only where necessary.

> Harder for *you*, maybe. You are the only person I've ever heard make
> such an argument. And I'm far from the only person who uses them.

Not just for me, for many people.

Good netiquette is to make use of emphasis sparingly and only when
necessary. You do not do this. There was no need for example, to emphasise
the word "you" in the above sentence. It would have carried the same meaning
without.

I would suggest also that you read the guidelines for the clearer use of
English, published by the Campaign For Clear English.

> Also, they don't draw my eyes to such words. They modify the emphasis
> as I reach the word. They don't "pull" my eyes on ahead.

Then you read in a most unusual way. Most people I know, including my 5 year
old daughter, read one word at a time for sure, but are drawn to words in a
piece of prose that are highlighted or marked in some manner and will look
at those first. To give an example, my daughter has a book where the
sentence "The chicken laid an egg" has the word "egg" printed in red. This
word is the word that people see first, because it stands out, even if they
then read the sentence normally. To use emphasis on a whim as you do makes
the text distracting and hence harder to read, all with little or no extra
meaning to the reader other than that already available in the content
itself.

> By your argument, I shouldn't use emphasis in speaking either. And
> that's just plain silly.

No, I said that you shouldn't use unnecessary emphasis. There is also a
considerable difference between emphasis in  a block of text (where I can
see all of the emphasised or highlighted words first before I have reached
them) and emphasis in speech (where I have to wait to hear each word in
linear sequence, and cannot therefore be distracted by
future words). The brain is better at detecting difference than conformity,
you see.

> I emphasized it because if I was speaking I'd stress that word. That's
> not being patronizing, that's saying that I consider it very, very
> unlikely. Without resorting to overly awkward phrasing.

Why stop there, then ? Why not use stress markers to indicate which syllable
is stressed, or which sonant ? Why not add "beat" marks for pauses shorter
than commas ? Why not ? Because you don't need to, that's why. The reader is
perfectly capable of adding these details, given the context of the
sentence - it's part of the parsing effort of reading in the first place.
Also, you shouldn't need to resort to awkward phrasing to make a point.

> Work it out for yourself. Any "force" that is the same at X diameters
> (where X <>1) from bodies of different sizes *does* vary by the cube of
> the distance.  That's the way the geometry works. See below.

You missed the point. I don't dispute what you are saying, and I'm sure that
your math is perfectly correct, but you've gone off on a tangent. My
argument was that the 100 diameter rule is probably arbitrary, and given
that densities will certainly vary even if only over a limited range, using
tidal forces makes it no more uniform than any other derivation. Far better
to define a tidal gradient limit or gravitational field strength limit where
the misjump threshold is, and then calculate how many diameters out that is.
At least that way you don't need a mathematical false premise of uniform
densities across all planetary sizes in order to make the derivation fit the
rule. Of course this means that 100D is reduced to a rule of thumb, and the
actual distance varies from say 90 to 110D or whatever, but that makes more
sense.

In fact, making the 100D a rule of thumb probably means that this is a
"safe" threshold, and the actual limit occurs considerably closer, say
50-70D out but rarely higher. That means that 100D is almost always safe,
but usually way off the actual value. Compare with operational and critical
maximum dive depths for submarines, for example - the sub may take 450m of
water, but the manual may set a limit of 375m to be on the safe side.

> Work out the field strength at 100 diameters for size 1 thru 10 planets
> assuming densities similar to that of earth or even Mars. The figures
> are *way* off.

Now try the same with tidal forces where the Mars size planet has a density
equal to that of Mars, and the Earth sized planet has a density equal to
that of the Earth. Do you get the same answer ? No. This only works if all
of the 10 worlds in your calculation have the same density, which makes no
sense. Better to define jump limits in terms of field strengths, tidal force
values, etc, than a distance/number of diameters. Sure the distance will
vary, but the rule is then usable in all situations and is more internally
consistent.

Regards

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] That Traveller Sensation
Message-ID: <200204180138.ELB02368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Watching Forbidden Planet again...
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330106b8e3cd72c219@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417182539.009eb920@mindspring.com>

At 06:13 PM 4/17/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
>>>that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
>>
>>Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
>>injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead 
>>tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not 
>>even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>>
>>I want my money (along with my spleen) back.
>
>Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that gets 
>powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an "accident", so 
>maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but whether it was 
>"accidental".  :-)
>
>(Though I wonder, how do you know you don't have any super powers? Have 
>you _tried_ to change the course of a might river?)

I'm half tempted to say yes, just for the reaction...


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
                          -Chicago reader, 10/15/82


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020417200008.009f3500@mail.attbi.com>

Douglas Berry wrote:
 > Hey! How do you think I feel? I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
 > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
 > tube! Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers? Not
 > even. Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!

	Didn't you get the Control Penguins Power?  I thought you had, or maybe it 
was the Penguin Projection Power .  No, wait, isn't that the Bits project, 
Penguin Projection?  Geez, now I'm really confused. :)
	By the way, I just got my copy of ACQ.  You have been added to the list of 
games I will buy just because of the author's demonstrated competance.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3CBED3F3.19368.F24A04@localhost>

On 17 Apr 2002 at 8:31, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
> >that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
> 
> Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
> injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  Can 
> I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
> minds of men? I don't think so!
> 
> I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

Well I'd suggest re-growing an organ from nothing counts as a super-
power.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <200204171605.EGN07388@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost>

On 17 Apr 2002 at 12:05, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Doug gives advice:
> 
> >>Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
> >>are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
> >>pointy stick :)
> >
> >Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future 
> >leader of men?  :P
> >
> 
> God help them.  I'm almost of the opinion that officers 
> should be enlisted first.  Even academy cadets should 
> complete 2 years before going to the academy.

I'm very definitely of that opinion.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417222045.020ccec0@192.168.0.1>

At 08:31 AM 4/17/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
>>that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
>Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
>injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  Can 
>I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
>minds of men? I don't think so!
>I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

Oh come on...you *are* growing the spleen back.


------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Writing about jazz is like dancing about
architecture" -- Thelonius Monk
------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
In-Reply-To: <3CBDD666.1080706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020416222702.02624008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417222814.00cd62e8@192.168.0.1>

At 01:09 PM 4/17/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>>At 02:40 PM 4/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>William Lane wrote:
>>>>Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
>>>>everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
>>>>info.
>>>That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
>>>XML to Cobol and back...
>>Way cool!  Can I add this to my Traveller Maintenance Blues page?
>><http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html> 
>>
>Why surely!
>Hey everybody...this is blanket permission to put anything I write here on 
>your web sites, if you want.

Thanks!  It's up there now!



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F179u7r4LYhvH67DL5d0000f1ce@hotmail.com>

Anthony Jackson said

> > >No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
> > >difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in
> > >state
> > >courts work.
> >
> > I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home 
>turf,
> > because that is the only place you can collect.
>
>Nah, if the defendant has a local office (sales outlet, whatever) you can 
>sue
>the local unit.

If the defendant is big and has a local offices sure.  You can play games 
with that though, like having every local office as a separate corporation.  
Because the LIC is granted by the Imperium, local courts probably can not 
break through the corporate veil.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
Message-ID: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>

OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm 
getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.


Anything happen while I was gone?

Loren Wiseman

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
In-Reply-To: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8E37F0C.4CC96%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/17/02 7:31 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm
> getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.

done
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417180901.009fd010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEKFGKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

What if your new found super power is something like
"Manipulate Hivers"
"Jump successfully within 100 D"
"Explain why the islands aren't a Protectorate"

You know . . . useful things.

jml
who with a shovel can alter the course of smallish rivulets

>>>>>>>>>>

At 09:34 AM 4/18/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
> > Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> > tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> > even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>
>Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
>best minds in medical science?

That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm 
going to sue somebody.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:42:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:42:05 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
In-Reply-To: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAEEJDCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Loren comes back from the dead:

>Anything happen while I was gone?

Not much. I "do" have a question.

When you first started in on this,
back in the beginning of it all,
did you ever think that decades later,
the same players would endlessly 
discuss "canon" about the things 
you and the others wrote?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:47:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:47:25 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
References: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002b01c1e683$27970f00$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:31 PM
GDWGAMES@aol.com said,

> Anything happen while I was gone?

Just the attack of the Zhodani Penguin elite.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail". - Gore Vidal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:52:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:52:16 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
In-Reply-To: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEKHGKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Oh nothing.

Whistles innocently

Sure is nice weather isn't it

______________________________
Caesar:  I'm so mad, I just have to vent my spleen at someone

Brutus:  (fingering dagger)  Here, let me help

jml
______________________________ 


OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm 
getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.


Anything happen while I was gone?

Loren Wiseman
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEHHCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com>
>
>At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
>Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
>judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
>
>Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
>Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?
>
>What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?

Canon is generally silent on this question.  Milieu Zero posits rather an
intrusive Imperial legal system, but I think it withers over time as the
Imperium expands to the entire extent of the Ziru Sirka, and declines to
impose any but the mildest requirements on member states (calendar, Imperial
credit, abolition of slavery).

The questions you present therefore require answers on two levels: member
states and the Imperium itself.  As to member states, there are 11,000
different answers, so I won't comment further.

The Imperium itself must strike a balance between autocracy and sufficient
rule of law for commerce to function.  Access to the Imperial civil courts
will be limited to matters that involve only Imperial law, such as
interstellar commerce and certain disputes between nobles.

I've written pretty extensively on this topic in the past.  You might want
to check the TML archives.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes (was: Quick Query on US Tax Returns)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417162722.022054a8@mail.qrc.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEDLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
 <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020417223728.00a730f0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 05:35 PM 4/17/2002 -0400, Derek Wildstar wrote:

>Thus, while taxes can be a motivating factor for political or economic 
>events in my Traveller universe, they are not generally something that the 
>PC's have to worry about (unless, of course, they happen to be outside of 
>the starport extrality fence on New Hong Kong for Tax Notification Day).

Especially if you see a big Hoffmanite wearing an old X-Tel uniform running 
for the gate.

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sporadic announcement of traveller Webrings
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417234404.00ce37d8@mail.charter.net>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/TravRings.html>

I have all the Traveller related webrings I know of listed on this page.

I'm the RingMaster for the Gearhead ring & the Reavers' Deep ring.

Please feel free to join either of those if you have appropriate content.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417180901.009fd010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <003301c1e68b$dbbfb060$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Wednesday, April 17, 2002 6:09 PM
Douglas Berry said,

> That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm
> going to sue somebody.

Hey, Spleen Regeneration is a perfectly fine super power.  Just make sure
that you always take bullets in your spleen.

The bad news is your GM is going to charge you 30 character building points
for this advantage.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force. And,
like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master!"  -George
Washington


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 22:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 21:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F60NIPDrGsWt3ogiUBy000123e6@hotmail.com>

I am looking at an old article from JTAS (I think) called High Justice by 
Terry McInnes.  It deals with criminal cases, but I thought it would shed 
some light on civil law.  At the imperial and subsector level of justice, 
there are courts wtih 3-9 judges.  So, at least according to this article, 
there are courts of some sort and not just nobles dispensing justice.  FWIW.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 00:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 17 23:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <20020418093454.A32118@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204180939270.28080-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Timothy Little wrote:
> > Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> > tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> > even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
> Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
> best minds in medical science?

I think he is still missing the adamantium skeleton and the forearm
spurs...

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 04:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 18 03:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418055518.00a9a050@pop.wizard.net>

Bruce Johnson, regarding Law Level 0 worlds:
>Probably quite polite and formal, since it's likely heavily armed...and 
>the local citizenry is entirely likely to feel that maintaining public 
>order is incumbent on all members of society, as well as enforcement, 
>since LL0 worlds tend also to be low GOV worlds too.
>
>A good one to spring on a bunch of unsuspecting PC's...land them someplace 
>they're expecting to be Dodge City, and discover that it's anything but, 
>that their 'uncivilized' behavior is quickly, but firmly 
>corrected...permanently, if necessary...think a Heinleinian world of 
>self-reliant, armed and polite strangers...

I think the Dodge City reference is usually more apt than the Heinlein 
reference.  In other words, I'm thinking that territories of the United 
States before they became states, during the 1800s, are very instructive 
about the behavior of people when there's no law present.  Usually, low law 
level comes hand in hand with low population level.  The Malthusian 
pressures of population crowding are so low that nobody feels compelled to 
seek to arrange a government, police, and courts.  As population density 
increases, those things begin to be manifested.  Meanwhile, you can indeed 
get away with murder.  If you are more popular than the victim, and you 
have a good story to go along with it.  Or more feared than the victim's 
survivors.  Or you move to a distant part of the country.  Or you hang out 
with family and friends who will protect you or avenge your own death.  For 
fans of Westerns who are more familiar with the actual history of that time 
and place, 'McCabe and Mrs. Miller' is a much more accurate portrayal of 
the usual behavior in a lawless but armed society than an episode of 'The 
Lone Ranger'.

Another example that might be instructive is the evolution of the Mafia, 
Irish gangs, and Jewish gangs, and similar criminal organizations in the 
U.S. (a society that successfully ignored the law, and thus was de facto 
Law Level 0) during the 1900s.  Whoever threw their weight around the best 
got away with the most.  Both in relations between the gangs and relations 
within the gangs.  Exceptions to that rule of thumb tended to happen only 
when the law got involved or when the gangs ran their own private law in 
the form of treaties between gangs and courts run by 'nobles' and 'juries' 
within the gangs.

Heinlein is often invoked in the science fiction world as an example of 
libertarian principles at work.  I don't know how many have read his story 
'Coventry', which was set inside a huge area cordoned off by the U.S. and 
completely without laws.  Citizens of the U.S. who broke the law were 
banished to Coventry to live among the other people who felt they didn't 
need the law.  Contrary to the expectations of the rugged individualist who 
starts the story about to enter Coventry, the people inside Coventry 
evolved their own law, but one that was imposed by the biggest sharks in 
the pool and not so kind and gentle as the law they had just left 
behind.  This was Heinlein's story that most directly addressed the issue, 
and with writer as judge of the conflict between different poliltical 
systems, he clearly found in favor of the democratic one and against the 
libertarian one.

In my own science fiction (running MTU, for instance), I try to make things 
work the way I think it would probably evolve to work in those 
circumstances.  Except when I ignore that in the interests of what I think 
will make a good story, despite loss of realism.  :->  To me, a sparsely 
populated world, with little or no indigenous manufacturing capability is a 
frontier world and frontier justice is rough and the people who populate it 
are tough.  Feuds, mobs, lynchings, etc. occur.  Discharge of firearms 
within the town limits is something the more forward-thinking citizens, or 
at least business-minded citizens, would like to see stop but that doesn't 
stop the rowdy toughs coming through on a cattle drive from doing it.  I 
think that describes the situation of a lot of low law level systems.  That 
deals with systems where there is plenty of land to live on and it is in 
the process of being filled up by people.  Come back to the same spot in 
twenty-five years or even five years and it will be more populated and much 
less lawless.

There are also systems that have a low population that will never rise 
higher, usually because of poisonous atmospheres.  That is the kind of 
frontier that is most likely run as a corporate preserve, a mining 
town.  There is law, but not necessarily justice.  The law isn't law that's 
on the books.  It's just whatever the corporate managers need it to be at 
the time.

A third case of low law level worlds is when a noble administers a 
territory as his or her own private fief.  In that case, it's up to the 
noble how she or he wishes to run things.  That's the formal law.  It's 
also up to the noble to find some kind of police and other apparatus of law 
enforcement, so even a fief with lots of laws on the books may be a de 
facto Law Level 0 place.  The real world examples that most come to my mind 
are Imperial Russia, and the colonies in Africa, South America, and much of 
Asia that were run by the European powers.  A fictional example that a 
friend of mine completely bases his Traveller universe on is the first 
'Dune' book.

For me, those three categories cover most of the times in Traveller that 
you'll have low law levels.  The Dakotas and Utah in the middle 1800s, 
remote mining towns, and colonies or fiefs from various times and places in 
Earth's history.  In all of them, the law still tended to be present at 
least on paper and usually was more interested in representing the bigger 
businesses than anyone else.  The only truly Law Level 0 places I can think 
of from the real world were places that were so unexplored and thinly 
populated that humans never interacted with each other at all, hence no 
need for laws to regulate their interactions.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 04:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 18 03:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
References: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBEA2E8.3622281C@mindspring.com>

Jeff Rowse wrote:

> <snip>
> Jeff
> (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how
> much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight
> slows the game a little..?)

Yes, That's why I assume any hit on a player character completely destroys their
body, brain included.;)

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 04:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 18 03:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
References: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CBEA57A.C7BA93A2@mindspring.com>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm
> getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.
>
> Anything happen while I was gone?
>
> Loren Wiseman
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

No, We've been waiting for you.8)


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
References: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com> <3CBEA2E8.3622281C@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OE50n04x29xDbH8J0sc0000a9f3@hotmail.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:41 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)


> Jeff Rowse wrote:
>
> > <snip>
> > Jeff
> > (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how
> > much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight
> > slows the game a little..?)
>
> Yes, That's why I assume any hit on a player character completely destroys
their
> body, brain included.;)

With a massive explosion, to boot.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
 <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418064717.00a38870@pop.wizard.net>

Bill Scheets asked the following incisive questions:
>As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
>something:
>
>At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?

Not very.  Disputes between nobles are settled by higher nobles or the 
Emperor.  The political fortunes of nobles who get involved in a lot of 
disputes tend to be very bad, including even losing their noble 
title.  This conditions the population of nobles to work things out privately.

>Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?
>   Or are lawsuits rare and
>judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Depends on the planet.  This sort of thing usually belongs to planetary 
law, unless it deals with murder, slavery, or treason/sedition against the 
Imperium.  Each planet's law will be determined by its government, which 
may be as litigious or not as it wishes.

>Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?

Close to the Imperial core, planets tend to be high pop, high law level, 
and with a lot of interstellar commerce.  In such regions, the Imperium's 
wishes to maintain the flow of commerce are much more important than in 
other places.  Reciprocal agreements and extradition treaties between 
worlds have been in place for centuries are fully fleshed out, with 
sufficient bureaucratic backing and law enforcers to keep all that 
machinery running smoothly.  The to-us-familiar apparatus of courts and 
police and regulatory agencies is present, and this includes means of 
resolving civil disputes.  Nobles with power tend to be too busy to spend 
much of their time being directly involved in these matters, but will keep 
their hand in just enough to remind everyone who is boss.  Nobles with more 
title than power can (as has been suggested) and will be made use of to 
help with running the interplanetary justice system whenever things tend to 
bad for public relations or commerce.

Planets in the core will tend to have separate civil and criminal court 
systems.  Their jurisdiction only covers their own planetary governments 
borders.  Contracts between interstellar parties will state which 
jurisdiction they are contracted under, and that jurisdiction's courts will 
rule on disputes over the contract.  Interstellar libel and such will 
either get settled quickly, by a mechanism mutually agreeable to them, by 
the all governments with jurisdiction over the parties to the dispute or 
they can look forward to getting an Imperial noble take a hand in the 
disagreement.  Governments that can't work well with their neighbors in 
civil law disputes will start getting various kinds of pressure from their 
Imperial nobles to conform.  Nobles who also tend to have megacorp ties, 
and who control the gates of interstellar commerce between the worlds.

>Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

Sure, as are any other systems that the various planetary governments favor.


>What does canon have to say on this?

Not much.  The Imperium rules the space between the planets.  Government of 
men not law.  I vaguely remember some JTAS articles that describe the core 
of the Imperium as being much more an Imperial culture and Imperial 
government than the areas closer to the Imperial borders.  Out on the 
fringes, interstellar commerce is usually not as vitally important to the 
local governments and thus the Imperial nobles who govern those regions of 
space have less influence on the locals.  That's as my memory recalls it, 
and I caution that my memory is often unreliable.

Also canon that I think I recall is that the throne and nobles do tend to 
have significant power with the megacorps, and the megacorps tend to have 
significant power on the planets themselves.  And, presumably, the local 
government joined the Imperium to participate in promoting peace, order, 
and commerce and feel at least a little bit motivated to cooperate with 
each other in settling disputes between their citizens.  Or, maybe they 
just joined out of fear as people on the TML often joke, and deeply resent 
even the perception of infringement on their local authority.  The 
interstellar protection racket that is the Imperium is bad enough, in their 
eyes, without adding cultural imperialism and other interference in their 
planets' affairs.  I don't much believe in the protection racket model of 
the Imperium, but there's plenty of latitude in interpreting canon to 
permit it.  At least outside the core of the Imperium.

>   What do you have to say?

I've pretty much completely spilled my guts on the topic in this and my 
immediately preceding post.

Excellent topic and questions, by the way.  The kind of thing each referee 
should address and answer for themselves before they begin a campaign that 
involves interstellar travel.  Or even involves businesses that are 
interstellar.  We won't each have the same answers or the same Traveller 
universes, but that's part of the beauty of the Traveller game system.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020418.075038.-101319.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:13:54 +1000 (EST) =?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=
<quakers_united@yahoo.com.au> writes:
> QUOTE
> > Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> > bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's
> going
> > to see is a cloud of dust ;)
> 
> What, because you have dust in your veins instead of
> blood?  ;-)
> END QUOTE
> 
> No, because I am a vampire from buffy:the vampire
> slayer ;P

But then you would only have to worry if it was a *wooden* pointy
stick... most bayonets aren't made of wood, I suspect.  ;-)


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why Not? (was 'Why?')
Message-ID: <F270DabigPasSmz6UuE00011c1e@hotmail.com>

In mail, Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> responded to my 
somewhat ill-written missive thus...

>But these discussions ARE fun!

To which I reply...

Most of the time, anyway.  It is just that I have noticed that we often end 
up with some of us (myself included) saying "That wouldn't happen that way 
because..." - forex, Piracy or the effect of a ship's own hull and mass 
being within 100D of the jump point.
Whilst I appreciate the free education I receive from my fellow TML'ers (how 
much would a college or university charge for some of the stuff we give out 
for free??), I don't need to know it as a player character.

So, what is my ship's fuel tank lined with such that the Hydrogen doesn't 
seep out of it?  Ah, Unobtanium.  Wait a second, isn't that what powers the 
lasers I use to shoot holes in an Ethically-Challenged Merchant's ship?

As a matter of idle curiosity, does anyone *really* calculate such things as 
how much liver tissue was damaged, or is it just a case of "Sorry, there 
wasn't enough of the organ left to transplant"..?

Jeff.

"Abandon hope, all ye who press 'Enter' here..."

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 06:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Apr 18 05:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Thunderer class heavy cruiser
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEILEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

For those interested in the ships that could have thought in the
Interstellar War period I present the

THUNDERER CLASS HEAVY CRUISER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION


The Thunderer class were one of the first "battleship" designs built by the
Terrans following their contact with the Vilani.The rapidly advancing
technology of the Terrans soon made the design obsolete and they were
reclassified as heavy cruisers.

Designs effectively identical to the Thunderer continued to be built in
backwater areas and some of these managed to survive until the Second
Solomani Rim War when virus struck the region.

The relatively low tech level of the design meant that a large number were
passed on to client states, allies, and governments the Solomani were trying
to curry favour with. It is possible that at least some vessels of this
class are still in existance.


General Data Displacement: 90,000 tons  Hull Armour: 320
Length: 272 meters  Volume: 1,260,000 cubic meters
Price: MCr26,959.930864  Target Size: L
Configuration: Cylinder SL  Tech Level: 10
Mass (Loaded/Empty): 1,089,834.5929/1,020,193.4023tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 162,000 Mw Fusion Power Plant (50 Mw/hit), 1
year duration (959.888 Mw surplus)
Jump Performance: 2xJump-1 (126,000 cubic meters each)
G-Rating: 3 (45,000 Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G-Turns: 80 (102.4 allowing fuel for 1xJump-1, 124.8 with no jump reserve),
5,625 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 41,398

Electronics Computer: 3xTL10 Fb (0.6 Mw each)
Commo: 3x1,000AU Radio (8, 20 Mw ea), 3x1,000AU Maser (8, 0.6 Mw ea)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics
Sensors: 2xPassiveEMS Fixed Array 180,000km (6 hexes; 0.35 Mw ea),
3xActiveEMS 480,000km (DF Capable; 16 hexes; 315 Mw ea), 2xTL10 Neutrino
Sensor (0.01 Mw ea), 20x Running Lights (0.0001 Mw each)
ECM/ECCM: 300,000km EMS Jammer (10 hexes; 260 Mw), EM Masking (1,260 Mw)
Controls: Bridge with 662xBridge Workstations, Auxiliary Bridge with
662xBridge Workstations, Fire Control Bridge with 231xBridge, Flag Bridge
with 11xBridge Workstations, plus 2,430 Other workstations.

Armament Offensive: 1xTL10 30000-Mj N-PAW (Loc: Spinal; Arcs: 1; 4,166.667
Mw; 67 Crew), 40xTL10 812-Mj Laser 50-ton Bays (Loc: 10x4, 10x5; Arcs:
1,2,3; Loc: 10x16, 10x17; Arcs: 3,4,5; 112.778 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea), 280xTL10
130-Mj Laser Turrets (Loc: 70x2,70x3; Arcs: 1,2,3; Loc: 70x18,70x19; Arcs:
3,4,5; 18.0555 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea), 100xMissile Barbettes (Loc: 20x4, 20x5; 5
ready Missiles or Recce Drones ea; 0.15 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea)

 				Short  	Medium  	Long  	Extreme
30000-Mj Spinal N-PAW  	10:866  	20:866  	40:866  	80:866
-1 Diff Level
812-Mj Laser 50ton-Bay  8:1/23-71  	16:1/12-37  32:1/6-19  	64:1/3-9
-1 Diff Level
130-Mj Laser Turret  	3:1/9-29  	6:1/5-15  	12:1/2-7  	24:1-4
-1 Diff Level

Defensive: 30xTL10 Sandcaster Turrets (Loc: 10x1; Arcs: 1,2; Loc: 10x10;
Arcs: 2,3,4; Loc: 10x20; Arcs: 4,5; 1D10x5 per hit; 20 Cannisters ea; 1 Mw
ea; 1 Crew ea)
Master Fire Directors: 1xTL10 (3 Diff Mod; Non-Msl; 10 hexes; 13.22 Mw; 1
Crew), 40xTL10 (3 Diff Mod; Non-Msl; 8 hexes; 11.43 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea),
140xTL10 (3 Diff Mod; Non-Msl; 3 hexes; 8.074 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea), 50xTL10 (3
Diff Mod; Beam/Missile; 10 hexes; 13.37 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea)

Accomodations
Life Support: Extended (252 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (1G; 6300 Mw)
Crew: 5,492 (2,430xEngineering, 10xElectronics, 4xManeuver, 748xGunner,
522xMaintenance, 150xShip's Troops, 74xFlight Crew, 1,310xCommand,
199xStewards, 45xMedical), Flagship adds 12 (5xElectronics, 6xCommand,
1xSteward)
Crew Accomodations: 8xLarge Staterooms (0.001 Mw each), 2,050xSmall
Staterooms (0.0005 Mw each), 550xLow Berths (0.001 Mw each)
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 9,651.2 cubic meters, twenty eight large cargo hatches
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: 10 95-ton Cinnabar class shuttles with
internal hangers (minimal) and one launch port each, 2 50-ton Shrike class
fighters with internal hangers (minimal) and one launch port each, and 8
40-ton Pelican class launches with internal hangers (minimal) and one launch
port each
Air Locks: 900
Additional Fittings: 3x8-ton Sick Bay (0.8 Mw each), 5x10-ton Machine Shop
(1 Mw each), 5x6-ton Electronics Shop (0.6 Mw each)

Notes:

Fuel purification machinery (1,123.2 Mw) sufficient to purify 140,400 cubic
meters in 6 hours (30 hours for entire load exclusive of power plant fuel).
Fuel scoop capacity 252,000 cubic meters per hour.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  Surface Hits  		Internal Explosion  				Systems
1  	1-13:Ant  			1:PA,2:Sand,3-20:Qtrs  				PP-3240H,
2-3  	1-13:Ant  			1:PA,2-3:LB,4-15:Elec,16-20:Hold  		LS-1702H,FPP-1545H,
4-5  	1-3:Ant,4-5:AL  		1:PA,2-3:LBy,4:MB,5-14:Qtrs,15-20:Hold
ELS-851H,JD-756H,
6-9  	EMMR  			1:PA,2-20:Hold  					PA-391H,
10   					1:PA,2:Sand,3-20:Hold  				Hanger-384H,
11  	1-2:AL,3-6:CH,7-9:EMMR 	1:PA,2-20:Hold  					MD-135H,
12-13   				1:PA,2-20:Hold  					EMM-126H,
14-15	1-10:LP  			1:PA,2-20:Hold  					LBy-10H,LB-2H,
16-17   				1:PA,2-3:LBy,4-8:Eng,9-20:Hold  		AEMS-1H,ElecShop-1H,
18-19	1-2:AL  			1:PA,2-3:LB,4-20:Eng  				EMJammer-1H,
20   					1:PA,2:Sand,3-20:Eng  				LSR-1H,MB-1H,
   												MFD-1H,MFAnt-1H,
   												MachineShop-1H,
   												Neutrino-1H,
   												PEMAnt-1H,
   												Sand-1H,
   												SickBay-1H,
   												EMMR-(1260h),
   												SSR-(2h),
   												All others-(1h)

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 07:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Thu Apr 18 06:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

  I'm almost of the opinion that
> officers 
> > should be enlisted first
Amen to that. Was it ever like that though? Does
anybody know when it stopped if it was? And Why?
I think it instills elitism in the wrong kind of
people and the wrong kind of people are less likely to
be patient enough for a couple of years as a grunt.
Not to say that we don't have some fine officers now,
but they still need to know what it's like to be
treated like a pawn in a chess game. I doubt this
ideology would work well for pilots though.
I was never in the military,but was in AFROTC for a
while,we had a great bunch of guys and gals(with a
couple of bad eggs) but I don't know if they had it
where it counted or not. In ROTC you see a lot of
people with their heads way up in the clouds.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 08:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Thu Apr 18 07:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #416 - 37 msgs
Message-ID: <F50D2nTe1CIGj0gsmDz0000076e@hotmail.com>

In mail, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
wrote...
<<SNIP>>
Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
minds of men? I don't think so!

I want my money (along with my spleen) back.
<</SNIP>>

I dispute that third point.
<zombie_mode>
"Must get GT:Ground Forces...  Don't need food...  Dont need coffee...  Just 
Ground forces..."
</zombie_mode>

Jeff.

"Black helo?  What black helo?  <pause>  Oh sh**!"

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 08:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 18 07:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8E429CE.4E9EA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/18/02 6:46 AM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> I'm almost of the opinion that
>> officers 
>>> should be enlisted first
> Amen to that. Was it ever like that though? Does
> anybody know when it stopped if it was? And Why?

Just bear in mind that there is a reason for the distance between officers
and enlisted (speaking as one who has been both).  As officers you will be
required to give orders to your men that will result in their death or
maiming.  You will know this before hand.  It requires a certain detachment
(at least for non-sickos) to order men to their deaths.

I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that an officer should be required
to be enlisted first.  It's hard to say.  I've seen both kinds of officers,
some good and some bad.  I've seen people who came up through the ranks have
a hard time maintaining 'distance' from their people. Also, the duties of
the two groups are very different.

I suppose one could look at how we've done so far.  The vast majority of our
(US) officers come from ROTC.  We seem to be doing OK.  If it ain't broke,
don't fix it.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 08:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Thu Apr 18 07:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
References: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com> <3CBEA2E8.3622281C@mindspring.com> <OE50n04x29xDbH8J0sc0000a9f3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBEDD60.2050002@gmx.net>

Jeff Yin wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:41 AM
>Subject: Re: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
>
>
>>Jeff Rowse wrote:
>>
>>><snip>
>>>Jeff
>>>(By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how
>>>much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight
>>>slows the game a little..?)
>>>
>>Yes, That's why I assume any hit on a player character completely destroys
>>
>their
>
>>body, brain included.;)
>>
>
>With a massive explosion, to boot.
>
more likely: a massive explosion leaving behind a pair of smoking boots...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 09:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 08:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAGEIOCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3CBEE39B.6060103@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Bruce and Doug complain about their lack of superpowers
> <snip>
> 
> How do you think I feel?  I've straddled many a
> thermonuclear warhead, in the forlorn hopes that
> something would happen (super mutant children, for
> one).
> 
> Nothing!

Well did you wave your hat around and yell 'Yeee Haaa!' ???



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 09:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 18 08:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418055518.00a9a050@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 06:43:42AM -0400
References: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020418055518.00a9a050@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020418091957.A21336@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 06:43:42AM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> I think the Dodge City reference is usually more apt than the Heinlein 
> reference.  In other words, I'm thinking that territories of the United 
> States before they became states, during the 1800s, are very instructive 
> about the behavior of people when there's no law present.

Not just that, but large numbers of young men and very few women.  In
fact, ISTR a Scientific American article some years back examining
just that subject.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I don't want to achieve immortality through my work.  I want to achieve
it by not dying.                                          --Woody Allen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 09:55:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 08:55:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020417200008.009f3500@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418084245.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>

At 08:07 PM 4/17/02 -0600, you wrote:

>         Didn't you get the Control Penguins Power?  I thought you had, or 
> maybe it was the Penguin Projection Power .  No, wait, isn't that the 
> Bits project, Penguin Projection?  Geez, now I'm really confused. :)

Maybe I do cloud the minds of mortal men..

>         By the way, I just got my copy of ACQ.  You have been added to 
> the list of games I will buy just because of the author's demonstrated 
> competance.

Wow. Thank you, and hope you enjoy shooting things with glee.  Just 
remember one rule. Never spend more than half you APP in your round, unless 
you are ambushing someone. Always leave enough to react to the other guy's 
move.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:17:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:17:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330106b8e3cd72c219@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019146600.6212.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:
> 
> Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that 
> gets powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an 
> "accident", so maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but 
> whether it was "accidental".  :-)

Nah, it can be 'test subject'.  Captain America, for example.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Charge accumulation
Message-ID: <200204181629.EMH01314@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I remember when doing sling loads with helicopters, that 
before you attach the sling, you have to ground the hovering 
helicopter.  If you don't, you can get a shock powerful 
enough to throw you to the ground.  It's an accumulation of 
static by the rotor blades moving through the air.  Rather 
like a Van de Graff device.  You can also see the rotor tips 
glowing from this charge at night, especially using night 
vision.

Well, in Traveller, we're in a metal ship. We are constantly 
being bombarded by ions flowing from the nearby star.  Does 
our ship accumulate any charge?  If you park two ships near 
each other, is there a charge differential?  Is it 
significant?  If I touched both of the ships at the same 
time, would the charge difference want to flow through me?

Do engines such as HEPLAR exacerbate this charge difference 
by pushing charged material away from the ship?

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEHICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>
>
>Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to
>enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?

If the Imperium allows its members to go to war with one another, it
certainly does not require them to enforce each others' judgments.

Whether a world will enforce a judgment rendered on another world depends on
various factors:  does a treaty between the worlds govern the issue? if not,
do standards of comity apply? what is the current political situation
between the worlds?  There is plenty of work for lawyers in a system as
complex as the Imperium.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:42:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:42:49 2002
Subject: ret: [TML] New Filk
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHJCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I put this up on my Live Journal, but it didn't get much response there, so
>I'd thought I'd post it here.
>
>Flaming Eye

Common brigands seek interstellar support by recasting themselves as racial
freedom fighters -- I like it!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204181647.EMH04030@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson asks
>
>Well did you wave your hat around and yell 'Yeee Haaa!' ???
>
Indeed.

There are many opportunities to relive moments from various 
movies when you are in a nuclear missile unit.

One interesting thing:  I ended up writing a bit of software 
to keep track of the status of the battalion's missiles 
(which ones were away, counting, etc.).  The various platoons 
would report their status via the program over radio modem 
rather than by voice.  In the requirements, they wanted to 
know time of flight, but didn't care about time of impact.

I put it in anyway.  During one exercise, the officers were 
crowded around in the BCC, drinking coffee after the count, 
and I interrupted the festivities by announcing, "<name of 
city>, impact in 5.. 4... 3... 2.."  Everyone was very upset, 
as they didn't even want to think about what happens after 
they succeed in launching.

Never, ever sign someone up as an infantryman, and then tell 
him halfway through his term that "because you were a 
programmer in civilian life, we're going to make you one 
here, because we're short programmers.  We don't know who 
assigned you here, but we've no use for you otherwise.".

The consolation prize was that when not writing programs, I 
had the keys to the arms room.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Charge accumulation
In-Reply-To: <200204181629.EMH01314@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019148621.4086.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> Well, in Traveller, we're in a metal ship. We are constantly 
> being bombarded by ions flowing from the nearby star.  Does 
> our ship accumulate any charge?

Probably.

> If you park two ships near each other, is there a charge differential?
> Is it significant?  If I touched both of the ships at the same 
> time, would the charge difference want to flow through me?

Once grounded, any charge should dissipate fairly rapidly.
> 
> Do engines such as HEPLAR exacerbate this charge difference 
> by pushing charged material away from the ship?

No, it seems to eject plasma, with a probable net charge of zero.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204180015090.24858-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020417010106.E5149279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418125300.0228bff0@mail.qrc.com>

At 06:28 PM 4/17/2002, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>Do you mean 9,000 systems rather than the 10,000 there's supposed to be?
>IIRC the figures are 11,000 worlds in 10,000 systems

Back in the day, my analysis of the old sector data files found about 
10,500 worlds coded Imperial (or for imperial cultural regions), so that's 
what my Imperial GNP figure was based on.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 10:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Charge accumulation
In-Reply-To: <200204181629.EMH01314@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418095458.009eb9c0@mindspring.com>

At 12:29 PM 4/18/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I remember when doing sling loads with helicopters, that
>before you attach the sling, you have to ground the hovering
>helicopter.  If you don't, you can get a shock powerful
>enough to throw you to the ground.  It's an accumulation of
>static by the rotor blades moving through the air.  Rather
>like a Van de Graff device.  You can also see the rotor tips
>glowing from this charge at night, especially using night
>vision.

I learned that you had better check this for yourself rather than trust the 
new guy to actually have done this.  If I had hair, it would have been 
standing on end.  As it was, I had a nasty burn on my foot where the charge 
exited my body and an irregular heartbeat for several hours, enough to get 
me a free helicopter ride out of East Rain.

>Well, in Traveller, we're in a metal ship. We are constantly
>being bombarded by ions flowing from the nearby star.  Does
>our ship accumulate any charge?  If you park two ships near
>each other, is there a charge differential?  Is it
>significant?  If I touched both of the ships at the same
>time, would the charge difference want to flow through me?

SOM had ships with probes to allow discharge of accumulated charges, and to 
attract lightning bolts during wilderness refueling.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 11:05:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 10:05:17 2002
Subject: ret: [TML] New Filk
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHJCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418095901.009f31b0@mindspring.com>

At 09:35 AM 4/18/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> >
> >I put this up on my Live Journal, but it didn't get much response there, so
> >I'd thought I'd post it here.
> >
> >Flaming Eye
>
>Common brigands seek interstellar support by recasting themselves as racial
>freedom fighters -- I like it!

(Takes bow)

I got the inspiration while reading a book about Anne Bonney and Mary Read 
at the same time as a book about the mythical Werewolf units, SS troops 
that were supposed to start a guerilla war against the Allies. It struck me 
that some Vilani would refuse to surrender, and go pirate.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Thu Apr 18 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Some Info...
Message-ID: <OF98BD72DE.DB3A42D5-ON85256B9F.005EA550@pheaa.org>

do we have any Aeronautical Engineers on the list?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 12:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Thu Apr 18 11:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Some Info...
References: <OF98BD72DE.DB3A42D5-ON85256B9F.005EA550@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBF16E6.327D72C5@virgin.net>

William Lane wrote:

> do we have any Aeronautical Engineers on the list?
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Yes.  Me!

Si

And there is one other i believe.

:-)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 13:58:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 12:58:24 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020418082212.A31848@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20418.115507.2p7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?
> ...
>> You want it because you were making such a fuss about not being able
>> to use oxygen to convert methane to water and CO2 because you'd lose
>> the oxygen if you threw away the CO2.
>
> I did.  That doesn't mean I want to have a special LOX tank just in
> case I can find hydrogen but not water.  Most of the time I'm going to
> be buying water from the starport I'm docked at.  Most of the rest of
> the time, I'll be getting it from iceballs or seas.  That's much safer
> than gas giant skimming, if nothing else.  In a desperate situation, I
> *might* come across a system that has a gas giant but no water.  (The
> only plausible cases I can think of involve a gas giant inside the
> star's 100D limit) In that case I can still skim hydrogen gas and
> process it into the LHyd tank for a 1-parsec jump.  If there is any
> water in the GG atmosphere (likely if there is no water elsewhere), I
> can collect that too, diffuse though it may be.

At reasonable altitudes that water is going to be *really* scarce.

>> Only at the cost of *not* being able to refuel by scopping at a gas
>> giant. The atmosphere is 90%+ hydrogen.
>
> That just means you need to spend a bit longer scooping for the other
> stuff, a time which in itself is relatively minor compared to the time
> taken to get to and from a gas giant's 100D limit.  But why perform
> that dangerous maneuver at all when you've got almost always got
> lovely little microgravity water sources nowhere near so deep into a
> 100D limit?

Don't ask me. The rules seem to think it's a good idea. :-)

>> No, but you can't use the water for drinking,
>
> I can after I remove the ammonia.

>> and it needs special handling as ammonia water is corrosive.
>
> Scary.  You were talking about hundreds of tons of cryogenic LH2.
> Ever looked up the MSDS for that?

You are stuck handling the stuff anyway. The difference between
"minimal" tankage for it, and storing all your fuel that way isn't
going to change the hazards all that much.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 13:59:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 12:59:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEEDDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20418.120147.7F3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> >> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
>> >> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were 
>> "boiled" off.
>> >
>> > Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
>> > a nitpick.
>> 
>> I was going by the figures in the post I was responding to, which had a
>> higher density listed for Mercury.
>
> No, they didn't. I quoted 5.43 for Mercury, 5.52 for Earth.

The *original* post (not yours) quoted 5.56 for Mercury.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:00:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:00:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417165617.00a9ea90@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <20418.120339.3g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
>>that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
>>An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
>>perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
>>planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
>>come up eventually.
>
> There is a simple way to make planets more dense without changing the basic 
> composition. Bigger terrestrial worlds will have higher density because of 
> compression, which is far more effective for bigger bodies. Just adding 
> more rock will make the rock more dense.
>
> Earth has a compressed density higher than Mercury, but the uncompressed 
> density is considerably less. If a planet had the composition of Mercury 
> and the radius of Earth, which potentially could happen in an decently 
> iron-rich inner system with a major collision between two large rocky 
> worlds, that planet would have even greater density than Mercury has, say, 
> somewhere between 6 and 6.5. If a world with the composition of Earth is 
> 50% greater in radius it also would likely have higher density than Earth.

On the other hand, unless that collision happened *really* late in the
formation of the system, such a plent would tend to collect a lot more
gas and other stuff, and possibly wind up as a mini-GG.

Above a certain point, you get runaway accumulation of material, which
results in a gas giant of some sort.

*Where* that point is is subject to a lot of debate as we don't have
enough of a sample set to draw the line except *very* broadly. 

Also, that major collision is just as apt to scatter pieces of those
rocky world halfway across the system.

> On the other hand, if we think of an Earth-size world with the composition 
> of Mars, it would still have a density of say, 4.5 to 5. I'd argue a more 
> common problem in RPGs is that densities for Earth-like worlds are too low. 
> (Big world with low density to generate decent gravity-style.)

I haven't noticed that much.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:01:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:01:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20418.120911.8p9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hi
>
>> Also, the post I was replying to had the wrong density for Mercury, and
>> had it being denser than earth. I didn't check my references until
>> someone pointed out the error.
>
> You were replying to my post, and the densities were correct there.

No. The posts where I referred Mercury being denser were replies to a
post that had Mercury being denser than earth.

Check the levels of quotes. 

> BTW, as an aside, Red Dwarfs display similar relative elemental abundances
> to the Sun, but are many , many times denser.

Yes, but that's due to factors that don't apply to *planets* to any
great extent.

>> Work out the field strength at 100 diameters for size 1 thru 10 planets
>> assuming densities similar to that of earth or even Mars. The figures
>> are *way* off.
>
> Now try the same with tidal forces where the Mars size planet has a density
> equal to that of Mars, and the Earth sized planet has a density equal to
> that of the Earth. Do you get the same answer ? No.

Yes, but you apparently missed the part that shows that to make the
inverse-square forces come out anywhere near equal at 100 diameters,
the *smaller* world has to be the denser one. Having it be less dense
makes the mismatch *worse*.

This is exactly the *opposite* of your example.

With equal densities, the inverse-square forces at 100 diameters is
greater for larger worlds in direct proportion to the ratio of the
diameters of the worlds. 

So, assuming that the forces are in direct proportion to the mass of
the planet, to get them to match at 100 diameters, the density of the
larger world must be lower. 

Since this is the exact oposite of the situation for "typical" (in
Traveller) "worlds" (ie what gets generated as mainworlds and non-GG,
non-asteroid/cometary halo bodies) invoking density differences as
a reason to prefer inverse square forces (acceleration due to gravity,
"slope" of the gravity well, etc) over inverse cube forces (tidal
acceleration, curvature of space, etc) is silly.

> This only works if all
> of the 10 worlds in your calculation have the same density, which makes no
> sense.

But that's what the rules *explicitly* state in the first three books.

It's also a good way to make a first cut at analyzing the problem. Vary
*one* property and see what happens in your calculations. This lets you
eliminate the obviously wrong hypotheses (such as "jump limits are
based on inverse square forces"). Then you add in other variables (such
as density) and see what you get.

It's not that different than starting out by calculating Earth's
gravity as if the planet was a perfect sphere of uniform density. A
simplification to get first order results to compare to your data.

> Better to define jump limits in terms of field strengths, tidal force
> values, etc, than a distance/number of diameters. Sure the distance will
> vary, but the rule is then usable in all situations and is more internally
> consistent.

Which is what I advocate. So why are you objecting?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:02:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:02:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEICCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20418.122806.4f6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Pions can be created by the collision of matter and antimatter.
> The creation time can be tightly controlled.  So the start point
> for acceleration to relativistic speeds is therefore controlled.
>
> It requires far less handwaving than that required for plasma/fusion
> weapons.

Slight problem. You *can't* control the direction the created pions are
moving in. Nor the velocity. All you can say is that the vector sum of
the momenta of the pions will equal that of the original
proton/anti-proton pair. 

And neutral pions can't be affected by electric or magnetic fields,
making focusing them more than a little difficult.

Artifically generated gravity would solve this. Alas, it requires field
strengths that can't be generated in Traveller. Or if they *can*,
they'd make various other things possible that we don't see.

Then again, the same is true of the "grav-focusing" of lasers. 

> Neither of the latter can produce a "bolt" of plasma that
> can fly downrange, in air or in vacuum.  No guide beams, etc, 
> are going to help.

True enough. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:03:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:03:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Timothy Little says
>>They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half 
>>of the original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has 
>>elapsed, 1/4 decay in the next half-life period, 1/8 in the 
>>half-life after that, etc.
>
> then it's not possible to accelerate *any* mesons at all, 
> given their half-life.  Almost all of them would be gone 
> before they got to the end of the accelerator.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

> Please contact Los Alamos and inform them that the meson 
> accelerator that they have been using since 1968 is a fake.  
> It sends beams of mesons out without irradiating the 
> accelerator.  The only items that become "hot" are in the 
> target area.  Please explain how that is done.

Maybe you need to check out *how* the mesons are created. Usually, it's
done by bombarding a target with a more stable particle (such as
protons or heavy ions) which gives a shower of mesons that are already
moving at relativistic velocities. Then those are fed into a
second-stage accelerator which "loses" non-mesons as the accelerating
fields are varying at the wrong rate for particles with a different
charge to mass ratio.

Or they may use other techniques.

Thing is, what we've been saying about half-lives *is* correct. The
existence of the accelerator doesn't change that. It merely means that
some of *your* assumptions about how it operates are incorrect.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204182026.EMP00817@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

It would seem that the effects of the LAMPF facility's beam 
is lethal enough at 800 MeV, and they plan to raise it to 
80GeV.  

Even without the magical meson effects, the mesons they 
accelerate seem to be able to do enough damage as it is.  
They also seem to be able to accelerate protons, and produce 
neutron beams.  A neutron beam, to me, would seem ideal.  You 
would permanently irradiate the target, etc.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204182026.EMP00817@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019163077.9084.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> It would seem that the effects of the LAMPF facility's beam 
> is lethal enough at 800 MeV, and they plan to raise it to 
> 80GeV. 

Shrug.  Lethal for what?  Large quantities of radiation are bad for things. 
> 
> Even without the magical meson effects, the mesons they 
> accelerate seem to be able to do enough damage as it is. 

Sure, but we call this a 'Particle Accelerator'.  A meson beam has fairly
typical PAW effects.
 
> They also seem to be able to accelerate protons, and produce 
> neutron beams.  A neutron beam, to me, would seem ideal.  You 
> would permanently irradiate the target, etc.

Actually, at high energies just about any type of beam will induce radiation in
the target, since it will tend to blow nuclei apart.  In fact, by around 1 GEv
there's no particular difference in penetration between any particles that
interact via the strong force (including pions, neutrons, protons, and the
relevant antiparticles); in all cases penetration is comparable to cosmic rays,
with a typical penetration of 50-100 grams/cm^2 before the first collision
(this results in a cascade effect as new particles are created; the continued
penetration of the cascade depends on the energy level of the particles, but
500 grams/cm^2 is suitable for 90+% shielding against multi-GEv primary cosmic
rays).

Since meson guns are less affected by armor than conventional particle beams
(which are probably proton accelerators) there must be some special particle
involved.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204182056.EMP04739@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

80 GeV sounds like a weapon.

So you're saying at this power level, there's no difference 
in penetration for protons, neutrons, etc.?

Would a stream of positrons be any worse for the target?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 15:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 14:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEHLCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>
>
>Anthony Jackson said
>
> > >No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
[quotation deleted]
> > I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home
[deletion]
>Nah, if the defendant has a local office (sales outlet, whatever) you can
>sue the local unit.
>
>If the defendant is big and has a local offices sure.  You can play games
>with that though, like having every local office as a separate corporation.
>Because the LIC is granted by the Imperium, local courts probably can not
>break through the corporate veil.

Whatever the answer, it's clear that the Far Future will be a paradise for
lawyers.  Cha-ching!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 15:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 14:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204182056.EMP04739@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019164377.5758.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 80 GeV sounds like a weapon.

Depends how many particles you have.  80 GEv is a respectable weapon if you
have 10^15 particles or so (total energy ~13 MJ)
> 
> So you're saying at this power level, there's no difference 
> in penetration for protons, neutrons, etc.?

Pretty much.
> 
> Would a stream of positrons be any worse for the target?

Lower penetration, actually.  Best choice for penetration would be muons (for a
neutral beam, perhaps muonium, which is an 'atom' formed by an electron and an
anti-muon, or a positron and a muon)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 15:53:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr 18 14:53:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019146600.6212.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1019146600.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8e4f059a959@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:16 AM -0700 4/18/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>>
>>  Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that
>>  gets powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an
>>  "accident", so maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but
>>  whether it was "accidental".  :-)
>
>Nah, it can be 'test subject'.  Captain America, for example.

OK, so maybe you get super powers if you are exposed to "accidental" 
or "untested" levels.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 17:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 16:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
Message-ID: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>

Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable whatever it is that 
makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML coding? I tried a quoted message and it 
ended up an unholy mess.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 17:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 16:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
Message-ID: <621638DD.3A102E03.02280B06@aol.com>

GDWGAMES@aol.com writes:
> Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable 
> whatever it is that makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML 
> coding? I tried a quoted message and it ended up an unholy 
> mess.

I don't know if you *can* turn off the HTML coding. Gotta
be able to use those cutesy little smileys and special fonts,
after all.

Meanwhile, since at least 6.0 the standard Internet-style
quoting (with the '>' marks) no longer works. I now copy
the text I want to quote to the clipboard, then hand-edit
the '>' marks into the quoted block. Annoying, but the
result is at least clean and readable to multiple email
clients.

---
Jon



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20418.120911.8p9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEGHDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi

> Yes, but that's due to factors that don't apply to *planets* to any
> great extent.

True, but it was an example of relative abundance being irrelevant to
density, and as such it still stands.

> Yes, but you apparently missed the part that shows that to make the
> inverse-square forces come out anywhere near equal at 100 diameters,
> the *smaller* world has to be the denser one. Having it be less dense
> makes the mismatch *worse*.

I'm not trying to make anything work at 100 diameters. I'm pointing out the
flaw in your insistence of using 100 diameters. Also, my point was that the
densities would be different, so the tidal force argument doesn't work
either. 100D is an arbitrary rule, period. There is no magic formula unless
you cook the books.

> But that's what the rules *explicitly* state in the first three books.

Lots of stuff in the three LBBs has been superceded. Do you really still
generate worlds with just the basic rules ? Or do you use the World
Builder's Handbook, or Book 6, or First In ? If you do, you'll find that
density is not uniform.

> Which is what I advocate. So why are you objecting?

My original post in this thread was to do with the maximum mass for a
starship before its own gravitational field caused a misjump, a logical
extension of the existing canon background. I seem to remember you corrected
me and told me that tidal forces must be the reason for the 100 diameter
rule, which then reduced the maximum mass and/or density of a starship
before a misjump occurred to smaller than a Type S Scout. I'd disagree with
the latter consequence as it is inconsistent with the background.

Anyhow, we're arguing over nothing. Let's call it a day. IYTU, do as you
will shall be the whole of the law.

Regards

Andy Brick










---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 17/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20418.143129.3R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> My courts apply the same burden of proof in both civil and criminal
> cases, in my case "on the balance of probabilities" rather than
> "beyond reasonable doubt". Juries are not a recognised concept and
> instead panels of nobles ranging from one to the entire moot,
> depending on the case, make decisions after hearing argument. It does
> not take a genius to work out that the system is highly open to abuse.

Problem is, "beyond reasonable doubt" and "jury of your peers" *both*
came about because of abuses.

Jury of peers dates back to the Magna Carta and was put there by
*nobles who were upset about abuses by the king. And note that "jury of
your peers" basicly means nobles would get tried by nobles.... <eg>
I can't see a stable Imperium *not* having something like that. At
least at some levels. 

And if you define "peers" properly, it works with both "government of
men, not laws" and nobles having "extra" priveleges.

the beyond reasonable doubt bit is also apt to develop if only because
convicting innocent people tends to get their friends and relatives
upset with the government. 

And if someone is a vassal of a noble, the noble is going to insist on
stronger evidence as well.

On the other hand, we have (at least) two different system to draw
from. In the "French" system, the "proving" of guilt is relegated to
the "police" side of things. It's (supposed to be) harder to file
charges without a lot of proof. But once filed, you have to prove
yourself innocent.

The "English" system has the filing of charges be much simpler, but
then at trial (supposedly) they have to prove you guilty. 

I suspect that there are other systems to be found in history. 

Local governments should be pretty free to have laws that don't
conflict with Imperial interests. And to be as "just" or "unjust" as
they care to be, as long as it's (theoretically) possible for people to
leave.

Commercial laws may actually be more uniform, simply because the
Imperium is an empire based on "free" trade. Which means it pretty much
requires the laws covering contracts and the like to be uniform. 

What sort of contracts are legal may vary from world to world. But the
rules on drawing them up, enforcing them, and assigning liability for
failures will be fairly standard.

The *penalties* on the other hand... <eg>

So while the decision as to the validity of a contract and whether or
not one party has failed in carrying out there part might be much the
same on the homeworld of each party, the legality of the good or
service contracted for may vary greatly. As may the consequences of
failure to carry out the contract.

On world A, defaulting may merely involve either "best effort" to
correct the failure with financial liability up to the value of the
good/service or the bankruptcy limit (whichever is smaller), on world B
defaulting may result in becoming an indentured servant of the other
party until you can make good the loss. and on world C the damaged
party may be able to opt to have you tortured or even put to death,
with a scale set up based on the magnitude of the loss. 

So which world's law governs could be *really* important. And the PCs
who don't check into the details could really regret it. <g>

> There is no real distinction between civil and criminal law at the Imperial 
> level. Instead all cases are treated in the same way and dealt with through 
> the same channels. The main difference is that in some cases precedent holds 
> that the court should appoint Imperial investigators to gather evidence. In 
> other cases the burden of investigation lies entirely with the litigant. 

Aside from Imperial crimes, most "Imperial" level litigation will be
civil anyway. Salvage cases, contracts that get appealed (not many
will, unless the situation is either complicated or the parties to the
contract specified that Imperial courts would be used to resolve
problems), etc.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:25:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:25:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F18T2Y89RdrUnR65Cbk00002a25@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20418.145258.6Y3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
>>Sam D writes:
>> > Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to
>> > enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign 
>>judgments?
>>
>>No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
>>difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in 
>>state
>>courts work.
>
> I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home turf, 
> because that is the only place you can collect.  That should discourage 
> litigation, and make a lot of lawyers rich with asset protection seminars.  
> Maybe some worlds would become big Switzerlands where the wealthy hide their 
> dough.
>
> So I guess you would sue free traders where there ship is registered, 
> because that is where title would be?  Then how do you actually get 
> possession if other worlds are free to ignore the judgments of other worlds?

That's *why* the Imperium pretty much *has* to enforce some sort of
rules about contract laws when more than one world/government is
involved. Otherwise trade becomes much harder to carry on. And that's
not good for the Imperium.

Civil cases that don't affect interworld trade and criminal cases that
don't violate the few Imperial "criminal" laws will only get dealt with
if some noble with jurisdiction (ie a noble from an involved planet, a
susector level noble from the subsector the dispute is in, etc) decides
to get involved.

So, if you can get a noble from your planet involved, you may get some
action. But only if he can get the noble in charge of the other planet
interested in discussing it with him.

Better is if the worlds are in the same sub-sector and you can
get a subsector-level noble involved as he has authority over both
worlds. If they are in different subsectors, but the same sector, then
you need to get a sector level noble interested. 

If they are in different sectors but the same domain, then you may need
the Archduke to get involved. And if they are in different domains,
you'll have to appeal to the Emperor. 

And if you are dealing between the Imperium and some other interstellar
polity, it could get *really* ugly.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:25:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:25:41 2002
Subject: [TML] The L-E Digest?
In-Reply-To: <F82qi8VjUwZcSlVviFl0000bd6b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20418.163302.7i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In mail, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) asked:
>
>>Nah, if everyone who goofed did that who'd be posting? :-)
>
> <tongue-in-cheek>
> Um, just you?
> </tongue-in-cheek>

Excuse me? I'm far from infallible. As should be obvious from a few
recent posts.... :-(

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <007901c1e739$fb4c0560$9bb18b90@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm
> going to sue somebody.

It could be worse.  Have you seen the (very fine) movie 'Mystery Men'?  You
could have become The Spleen.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBF6B82.9FD041AE@mailbag.com>

> From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
>
> Heinlein is often invoked in the science fiction world as an example of
> libertarian principles at work.  I don't know how many have read his story
> 'Coventry', which was set inside a huge area cordoned off by the U.S. and
> completely without laws.  Citizens of the U.S. who broke the law were
> banished to Coventry to live among the other people who felt they didn't
> need the law.  Contrary to the expectations of the rugged individualist who
> starts the story about to enter Coventry, the people inside Coventry
> evolved their own law, but one that was imposed by the biggest sharks in
> the pool and not so kind and gentle as the law they had just left
> behind.  This was Heinlein's story that most directly addressed the issue,
> and with writer as judge of the conflict between different poliltical
> systems, he clearly found in favor of the democratic one and against the
> libertarian one.

Thank you for remembering this. I knew there was a quite well written
refutation in his work but I had forgotten the name. 

As a fairly hard lefty (hey I am a member of the DSA.
http://www.dsausa.org if you don't know them. Keep in mind that I keep
that link  in my religion folder... ;') I had a difficult time
understanding some of his works when I was a teen. The way "Coventry" is
written makes it very clear that a democracy that passes things against
his ideals is a better place to him than a tyrany that is exactly in
line with his thought. It's also useful to understand that one can
respect while disagreeing. 

 I've learned alot from his books - and even more after I did 16 years
in the US Army/National Guard/Army Reserve. OTOH, it's fun sometimes to
be the token lefty... 

William
-- 
You better watch out    What you wish for;
It better be worth it   So much to die for.
                                Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 18 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20418.143129.3R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>; from shadow@krypton.rain.com on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 02:31:29PM -0800
References: <cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84@aol.com> <20418.143129.3R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020418190201.A22643@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 02:31:29PM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> Jury of peers dates back to the Magna Carta and was put there by
> nobles who were upset about abuses by the king.  And note that "jury
> of your peers" basicly means nobles would get tried by nobles....

And commoners by commoners.  I believe it was Blackstone who commented
that all this ties into the presumption of innocence, fair trial,
burden of proof on the prosecution complex.  The idea being that
commoners are more likely to favour their own, and nobility their own,
and thus that things are slanted in favour of the defendant.  Which is
a Good Thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron--more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to mankind.
                              --Mirelle Stein, The Productive Class

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 19:04:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 18 18:04:37 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>; from GDWGAMES@aol.com on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 07:30:44PM -0400
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020418190346.B22643@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 07:30:44PM -0400, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>
> Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable whatever it
> is that makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML coding? I tried a
> quoted message and it ended up an unholy mess.

Does AOL offer SMTP and (POP3 or IMAP) to its subscribers?  If so, you
can use any mail client you wish.  I understand that Mozilla's is very
good, for those who like GUI clients.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A PC without windows is like a chocolate cake without mustard.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Thu Apr 18 18:08:02 2002
Subject: Officer Candidates (was Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets)
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBF6DB5.E1C86E36@mailbag.com>

> From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
>   I'm almost of the opinion that
> > officers
> > > should be enlisted first

I've long felt that not only should prior service be required, but that
promotion to E-5 be required before acceptance into any officer training
program. This, essentially, requires that the gentle serves at least one
term as a grunt first. I've seen some who took the OCS test in the
middle of basic who weren't any better than the ROTC things that we
occasionally got stuck with. OTOH, pointers were far worse...  
 
As a soldier and as a sergeant, I always respected the mavericks far
more - if they gave you a shit detail they had probably shoveled the
same shit at some point. Unlike any of the rest.

William
-- 
You better watch out    What you wish for;
It better be worth it   So much to die for.
                                Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:08:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:08:11 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20418.214954.3L6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable whatever it
> is that makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML coding? I tried a
> quoted message and it ended up an unholy mess.

	http://expita.com/nomime.html


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:12:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:12:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a@aol.com>

--part1_21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always had trouble with 
the idea of a line of seperately-designed launchers being required to fire 
"sand", so I decided to just do away with them IMTU; allowing the typical 
missile launcher to fire several different types of munitions; with "sand" 
being used in its usual role as a screen to counter incoming missiles or 
energy beam fire, as well as it acting as a fairly effective antipersonnel 
weapon (Striker, bk2).
  -Ken Murphy-
  
   
   
   

--part1_21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always had trouble with the idea of a line of seperately-designed launchers being required to fire "sand", so I decided to just do away with them IMTU; allowing the typical missile launcher to fire several different types of munitions; with "sand" being used in its usual role as a screen to counter incoming missiles or energy beam fire, as well as it acting as a fairly effective antipersonnel weapon (Striker, bk2).
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR> &nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:17:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:17:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
Message-ID: <200204190140.EMZ01428@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was just looking at something called Electric Tokamak, and 
I noticed that in one of the pictures, they were using 
hydrogen plasma, and in a few others, helium plasma.  I 
thought that this was strange, since no machine built yet 
achieves a high beta (high enough to break even, that is).

In their "introduction" section, they talk about the machine 
being able to use "low-neutron yield fusion fuels" in the 
future with this design.

It makes me think that their intent in the end is to use 
helium rather than hydrogen.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:19:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:19:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Could some kind soul please contact me off-List with some links to 
sites that list various combat formation TO&Es?  I've tried Google until my 
eyes crossed with no avail.  As you all well know, I'm not the sharpest tool 
in the shed and my surfing abilities suffer as a consequence.
     The recent TML thread discussing unit TO&Es and the well deserved 
praise for Mr. Berry's accomplishments regarding them in GT:GF gave me cause 
to flush all the unit descriptions in my "Dirty Little War" project.
     Specifically, I'm interested in TO&Es from the turn of the last 
century, say the 1905/Russo-Japanese War to 1918/Great War range.  This 
implies large squad automatic weapons, clunky AFVs, and early combat 
aircraft.
     Thank you.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:21:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:21:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <007901c1e739$fb4c0560$9bb18b90@computer>
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418190001.009e85e0@mindspring.com>

At 10:34 AM 4/19/02 +1000, you wrote:
> > From: Douglas Berry
> > That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm
> > going to sue somebody.
>
>It could be worse.  Have you seen the (very fine) movie 'Mystery Men'?  You
>could have become The Spleen.

No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!

"Ah, the Disco Room!"


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:24:05 2002
Subject: Officer Candidates (was Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets)
In-Reply-To: <3CBF6DB5.E1C86E36@mailbag.com>
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418221746.020382a8@192.168.0.1>

At 08:07 PM 4/18/2002 -0500, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:
> > From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
> >   I'm almost of the opinion that
> > > officers
> > > > should be enlisted first
>I've long felt that not only should prior service be required, but that
>promotion to E-5 be required before acceptance into any officer training
>program. This, essentially, requires that the gentle serves at least one
>term as a grunt first. I've seen some who took the OCS test in the
>middle of basic who weren't any better than the ROTC things that we
>occasionally got stuck with. OTOH, pointers were far worse...
>As a soldier and as a sergeant, I always respected the mavericks far
>more - if they gave you a shit detail they had probably shoveled the
>same shit at some point. Unlike any of the rest.

Back when I was a young lad, dear old dad wanted my brother and I to go to 
West Point.

After his tour in scenic Southeast Asia, the tune changed to, "You boys 
wouldn't embarrass your father by going to a military academy."


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!
Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>

On Thursday 18 April 2002 21:37, you wrote:

> Maybe you need to check out *how* the mesons are created. Usually, it's
> done by bombarding a target with a more stable particle 

Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel" 
problems: Nuclear Damping Technology. Obviously this is used inside the 
barrel (And maybe for some distance outside it... remember, Nuclear Dampers 
work at some range... on the order of 30,000 KM. Meson Screens are obviously 
a special type of Nuclear Damper, specifically tuned to decay mesons. If you 
can do that, you can surely do the opposite: Prevent them from Decaying, or 
massively reduce their decay rate) in order to prevent your mesons from 
decaying too early. Mesons are obviously generated, en-masse, by nuclear 
damper style technology also, set up for very short range (i.e. meters, or 
centimeters) but extremely powerful and finely controlled damper-style 
fields. 

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
In-Reply-To: <200204190140.EMZ01428@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204190140.EMZ01428@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020419184155.A3066@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> It makes me think that their intent in the end is to use helium
> rather than hydrogen.

I would suspect that they intend to study any number of modes of
operation very thoroughly.  To me they seemed to be concentrating more
on pure hydrogen plasmas at the moment, but that would be because this
is meant to be a controlled experiment of their theoretical method,
not a commercial fusion operation.

I did notice a few hydrogen/helium runs, though.  We'll have to see
what the future holds when they see how well this mode of operation
conforms to theory.  :)


With these advances, it looks like large-scale commercial fusion power
is only about twenty years away!
;^>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>

Brian Caball wrote:
> Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel" 
> problems: Nuclear Damping Technology.

The only problem is, why doesn't a meson gun then function
automatically as a perfect meson screen?  If you can prevent your
mesons decaying over distances of up to millions of kilometres, why
can't you ensure that the other guy's mesons don't decay within a
range of twenty metres?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
Message-ID: <200204190855.BAA14300@ping.iii.com>

Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> writes:

>On Thursday 18 April 2002 21:37, you wrote:
>
>> Maybe you need to check out *how* the mesons are created. Usually, it's
>> done by bombarding a target with a more stable particle 
>
>Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel" 
>problems: Nuclear Damping Technology. Obviously this is used inside the 
>barrel (And maybe for some distance outside it... remember, Nuclear Dampers 
>work at some range... on the order of 30,000 KM. Meson Screens are obviously 
>a special type of Nuclear Damper, specifically tuned to decay mesons. If you 
>can do that, you can surely do the opposite: Prevent them from Decaying, or 
>massively reduce their decay rate) in order to prevent your mesons from 
>decaying too early. Mesons are obviously generated, en-masse, by nuclear 
>damper style technology also, set up for very short range (i.e. meters, or 
>centimeters) but extremely powerful and finely controlled damper-style 
>fields. 

True, nuclear dampers do imply a lot of bizarre manipulations of decay
rates that it's very difficult to explain in a way that wouldn't prove
instantly lethal to all life.  Considering that pions are the primary
exchange particle of the strong force, nuclear dampers would be expected
to influence them.

Doesn't help much with the problem of 'mesons aren't notably penetrating
particles'.  Of course, explaining how nuclear dampers don't change the
laws of physics in ways that are instantly fatal to life is also a trick.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
Message-ID: <200204190857.BAA28058@ping.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>I was just looking at something called Electric Tokamak, and 
>I noticed that in one of the pictures, they were using 
>hydrogen plasma, and in a few others, helium plasma.  I 
>thought that this was strange, since no machine built yet 
>achieves a high beta (high enough to break even, that is).
>
>In their "introduction" section, they talk about the machine 
>being able to use "low-neutron yield fusion fuels" in the 
>future with this design.
>
>It makes me think that their intent in the end is to use 
>helium rather than hydrogen.

It probably is.  D-He3 is the easiest of the low-neutron fusion fuels
to ignite.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 03:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Apr 19 02:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>

On Friday 19 April 2002 09:45, you wrote:
> Brian Caball wrote:
> > Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the
> > barrel" problems: Nuclear Damping Technology.
>
> The only problem is, why doesn't a meson gun then function
> automatically as a perfect meson screen?  If you can prevent your
> mesons decaying over distances of up to millions of kilometres, why
> can't you ensure that the other guy's mesons don't decay within a
> range of twenty metres?

It's probably set to a long thin beam... hence the range. the manufacturers 
probably also supply the shorter range, general purpose, multidirectional 
meson screens. 

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 03:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 02:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020419190352.C3066@freeman.little-possums.net>

>  If you can prevent your mesons decaying over distances of up to
> millions of kilometres, why can't you ensure that the other guy's
> mesons don't decay within a range of twenty metres?

I just thought of an even more extreme example: meson communicators
function across *billions* of kilometres.  They should make you
completely immune to meson weapons if they can prevent decay at that
range.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 03:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 02:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net> <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020419192132.A3299@freeman.little-possums.net>

Brian Caball wrote:
> It's probably set to a long thin beam... hence the range. the
> manufacturers probably also supply the shorter range, general
> purpose, multidirectional meson screens.

But then why are meson screens so expensive and not perfectly
effective?  They don't need anywhere near as much coverage as a
multi-million kilometre beam, even if it is thin.  Covering a mere
starship should be utterly trivial by comparison.

On the other side of the issue, altering the decay properties of
mesons means that you don't actually need to fire anything at the
target: mesons are fundamental to the processes that hold nuclei
together.  Tamper with them, and every nucleus bigger than hydrogen
alters its energy to an extent that makes fusion look "slightly warm".

Just wave your "meson damper" over the target, then shut down your
sensors and get behind a sandcaster cloud before the flash reaches
you.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 05:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 04:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
Message-ID: <200204191113.ENR03407@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>
>With these advances, it looks like large-scale commercial 
>fusion power is only about twenty years away!
>;^>
>

That's what they said back in the 1970s
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 05:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 04:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204191118.ENS00157@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>
>No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!
>
>"Ah, the Disco Room!"
>

I would be happy to be Invisible Boy
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 05:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 19 04:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Andy Akins Still Around?
Message-ID: <3CC003DA.D3F8EBBE@earthlink.net>

Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Akins?

I'm trying to contact him re: his T4 ship design spreadsheet
but the andyakins@earthlink.net address from his website
keeps bouncing email.

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 6:46, Daniel Tackett wrote:

>   I'm almost of the opinion that
> > officers 
> > > should be enlisted first
> Amen to that. Was it ever like that though?

Not that I know of.

 Does anybody know when it stopped if it was? And Why?

The modern system has its origins in Medieval Europe, with knights 
evolving into the aristocratic officer class, etc.

> I think it instills elitism in the wrong kind of
> people and the wrong kind of people are less likely to
> be patient enough for a couple of years as a grunt.

That's also my feeling.

> Not to say that we don't have some fine officers now,
> but they still need to know what it's like to be
> treated like a pawn in a chess game. I doubt this
> ideology would work well for pilots though.

Pilots are made into officers for reasons of tradition and there's no 
real reason for them to be, no matter what they might say on this.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <B8E429CE.4E9EA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC0B25F.15316.840B8C@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 7:44, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Just bear in mind that there is a reason for the distance between
> officers and enlisted (speaking as one who has been both).  As
> officers you will be required to give orders to your men that will
> result in their death or maiming.  You will know this before hand. 
> It requires a certain detachment (at least for non-sickos) to order
> men to their deaths. 

However also remember that a platoon sergeant (the position, not the 
rank) will also have to do this at some point, and he will always (in a 
western style army, anyway) have 'come up', and should be close to his 
men. Likewise a Section Commander/Squad Leader will be very close to 
his men (and probably was 'one of the men' only a year previous), and 
yet they have to order their squad into deadly situations all the time.
 
> I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that an officer should be
> required to be enlisted first.  It's hard to say.  I've seen both
> kinds of officers, some good and some bad.  I've seen people who came
> up through the ranks have a hard time maintaining 'distance' from
> their people. Also, the duties of the two groups are very different. 

However the split between 'admin' (NCOs) and 'command' (officers) 
starts at the squad leader - 2IC level, and they're both NCOs.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418084245.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20020417200008.009f3500@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <3CC0B2AB.3922.85344E@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 8:44, Douglas Berry wrote:

> Wow. Thank you, and hope you enjoy shooting things with glee.  Just
> remember one rule. Never spend more than half you APP in your round,
> unless you are ambushing someone. Always leave enough to react to
> the other guy's move. 

I thought the rule was "Always ensure you're outside the ambush, firing 
in."

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:25:02 2002
Subject: Officer Candidates (was Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets)
In-Reply-To: <3CBF6DB5.E1C86E36@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <3CC0B556.15473.8FA124@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 20:07, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:

> I've long felt that not only should prior service be required, but that
> promotion to E-5 be required before acceptance into any officer training
> program. This, essentially, requires that the gentle serves at least one
> term as a grunt first. I've seen some who took the OCS test in the
> middle of basic who weren't any better than the ROTC things that we
> occasionally got stuck with. OTOH, pointers were far worse...  

I don't think I'd go so far as to require getting to E-5. What makes a 
good NCO isn't always the same thing that makes a good officer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020419125210.3554.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I want my money (along with my spleen) back.


Chalk up another virtual Keyboard kill to Doug.  I,
like others, have learned not to drink at the
computer, at least for this list.  And, yes, I may be
a day behind, but I got yesterday's project finished
before quitting time.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 09:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419192132.A3299@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
 <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
 <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419111058.040af780@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:21 AM 4/19/2002, Timothy Little wrote:
>Brian Caball wrote:
> > It's probably set to a long thin beam... hence the range.
>
>But then why are meson screens so expensive and not perfectly effective?
>On the other side of the issue, altering the decay properties of mesons 
>means that you don't actually need to fire anything at the target [...] 
>Tamper with them, and every nucleus bigger than hydrogen alters its energy 
>to an extent that makes fusion look "slightly warm".

Here's a non-canon, but possibly workable suggestion for you: what if a 
"meson gun" is basically a "laser" for the whatever-it-is that makes meson 
screens (presumably some variant of damper technology) work.  In this case, 
it's tuned to affect mesons so that the field causes a release of energy 
and radiation as atoms in the target break down.

Let's further postulate the following, for no particularly good reason than 
they make the "meson gun" work similarly to the way it is described in the 
Traveller canon:

- The weapon beam is laser-like, so that it is reasonably small and can 
affect targets at a great distance, but must be focused or tuned for 
maximum effect at a specific range.  Lower power beams are much easier to 
focus and control than high-powered ones, so that meson communicators can 
have a greater range than meson weapons.

- For whatever reason, only a tiny fraction of the atoms in the focus point 
of the beam are affected enough so that they break down. The higher the 
power of the beam, the greater the percentage of atoms that break down and 
the larger the release of energy.

- The breakdown of atoms in the beam is significantly enhanced by supplying 
radiation to "kick off" a chain reaction.  Therefore, weapons-grade meson 
guns fire some type of particle beam at the target as well.

- Meson screens interfere with the ability of the meson gun beam to cause 
atoms to break down.  This is not an "all-or-nothing" proposition; the 
screen interferes with but does not block the weapon beam, protecting the 
ship to a greater or lesser degree.

The canon Traveller explanation of how a meson gun works can then be 
thought of as a simplified explanation (similar to what you would get if 
you asked a present-day layman for an explanation of the sun's energy 
source), or a deliberate obfuscation on the part of the high-tech 
polities.  The net result is the same: the "conventional wisdom" describes 
the net effect of a meson gun beam relatively accurately, but misrepresents 
the underlying physics.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 09:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Andy Akins Still Around?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C365E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Try andy@leonidae.org.  I was in touch with him in March at that address.
Jesse
 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Smart [mailto:jurrubin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 4:48 AM
To: TML List
Subject: [TML] Andy Akins Still Around?


Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Akins?

I'm trying to contact him re: his T4 ship design spreadsheet
but the andyakins@earthlink.net address from his website
keeps bouncing email.

David Smart
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 09:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <20020418190346.B22643@4dv.net>
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
 <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net>

>Does AOL offer SMTP and (POP3 or IMAP) to its subscribers?  If so, you
>can use any mail client you wish.  I understand that Mozilla's is very
>good, for those who like GUI clients.

Not last I heard.  There was an alpha test of that using employees only a 
couple or three years ago and it wandered into a swamp and never came 
out.  Which is just as well, from AOL's point of view, since it was _only_ 
being made compliant with Micro$oft Outlook and was just another way for 
them to hand the reins of software control over to Micro$oft.  (The 
explanation for this thinking is that most of the good leadership at AOL 
have long since retired after they got rich on stock options.)

Leonard Erickson already pointed to the best answer I am aware of for 
Loren's original question.  That Web site gives both the official and the 
"unofficial" answer but they are both the same thing.  The unofficial 
answer reads to me like it was posted by an AOL tech support rep on his own 
page so that he could point customers to it instead of trying to explain it 
over the phone.

I still maintain an AOL account and my wife exclusively uses AOL when not 
at work, but neither of us have upgraded to version 7.0.  (I used to QA the 
AOL client software and have what I consider good reasons for avoiding 
upgrading.  She just hasn't got around to it yet.)  I will go ahead and 
install 7.0 and fiddle around with it once I get my own computer's 
motherboard and CPU replaced.  I'd rather not install anything new on my 
wife's puter.

With luck, I will find something more useful than that ridiculous 
workaround that is the official method.  I will post results here.

It's no wonder I got a world-class set of ulcers when I was working 
there.  :::shaking head sadly:::

--Laning
"I coulda been _somebody_.  I coulda been a _contender_." -Laning speaking 
about AOL's potential to be much better than what it's turned into.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226E9@USCHM203>

>Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always had trouble with 
>the idea of a line of seperately-designed launchers being required to fire 
>"sand", so I decided to just do away with them IMTU; allowing the typical 
>missile launcher to fire several different types of munitions; with "sand" 
>being used in its usual role as a screen to counter incoming missiles or 
>energy beam fire, as well as it acting as a fairly effective antipersonnel 
>weapon (Striker, bk2).
> -Ken Murphy-

Makes sense to me. IMTU, most sandcasters on smaller ships aren't even
mounted in turrets. They are placed on or in the hull  in various locations
for full coverage, and work similar to the smoke launchers on the turrets of
tanks or chaff launchers on ships and aircraft. There is no need to aim
them, or have any fire-control system other than a manual or automated
activation system.


Brian L. Hurrel
ICS Analyst
EDS
(973) 682-5578


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [Website Review] Elv's Traveller Pages
References: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris> <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net> <02041910580708.03729@avlendris> <5.1.0.14.2.20020419111058.040af780@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <003801c1e7bf$66b51dc0$6e00a8c0@imogen>

The Website Review
------------------

A little later than expected this time, but here is ...

    Elv's Traveller Pages (John G Wood)
    http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller

Most of this site has red text on a black background (a homage to
the LBB covers).  Although this colour scheme can get  irritating
to read it is image-lite  ...  so  pages  are  fast  loading.  In
keeping with the LBB style there are links from  the  front  page
to:

- Page 0. An Introduction To My Traveller Universe
- Page 1. Characters and Combat
- Page 2. Starships
- Page 3. Worlds and Adventures
- Supp. Forms and Charts

The "Introduction" page states  that  it  is  for  material  that
doesn't fit elsewhere.  So far there  are  only  2  pieces,  both
about  psionics.   First  is  a  "right  of  reply"  letter   ...
complaining at the pro-psionic bias  of  a  recently  transmitted
program.  Second is a psionic institute checklist:  based  on  T4
(local world attitute, presence of a psionic institute, how  many
students, campuses, etc).

The "Characters and Combat" page is empty.

The "Starships" page contains GT translations of some Hiver ships
from Alien Module 7 (Explorer, Trader, Embassy Ship, and Research
Cruiser).  There's also a link to a 400dton GTL10 Lighter, and to
a landgrab page (Prilissa/Trin's Veil).

The "Worlds and Adventures" has links to write-ups of  Ochre  and
Cymbeline (both in the Solomani Rim), a link to a formal landgrab
of Prilissa (Spinward Marches), and links to two sector write-ups
(Windhorn  and  Usingou).  The  Ochre  and  Cymbeline   write-ups
include both text and stats, and could qualify as landgrabs.  The
Prilissa write-up *is* a landgrab (albeit as yet unfinished)  ...
there is a large amount of text  and  stats,  and  some  graphics
(world map and system chart).  The sector write-ups are  "initial
development" and has  data  in  Galactic  SEC  and  Galactic  SAR
formats, a list of subsector names, and a micro-sized sector map.

The "Forms and Charts" page has a CC2 file of "IS Form 21" (world
grid), and Gal2CC (a utility that converts sector  and  subsector
maps from Galactic to CC2).  There are also 3 Word documents  for
use with T4 (PE Forms, Shipcards, and a system worksheet) bundled
into a 26K zip.

In summary: T4, GT, and  generic  resources,  wrapped  up  in  CT
style.  The sector write-ups try to be true to the DGP  dot  maps
of those sectors (good!).  And there is  generally  good  support
for Galactic.  This site also reports that it was last updated on
15-Mar-2002 (good, an active site).

Improvements:  The layout implies that  more  content  is  coming
soon ... as it stands at the moment the level  of  content  would
support folding in the main section pages into  the  front  page.
More content is always good.  With the prominance of Galactic  in
this site I would have expected a link to Jim  Vassilakos's  site
(where Galactic can be found).  I look forward to the  completion
of the landgrab  and  more  info  on  the  Windhorn  and  Usingou
sectors.



Regards PLST



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Dan's used HG2 space craft lot #3
Message-ID: <3CC0463F.35BDBF90@mail.cswnet.com>

Buy now, pay later! We have the best used ships this side of Canopus!

Destiny Star class luxury liner
These ships are usually only seen in high pop core sector worlds.
Occasionally, 1 or 2 find their way to the frontier, usually under
charter by the Imperial Navy. On very rare occasions, the ships are
chartered to assist in colonizing a planet.

Destiny Star class luxury liner
ship names include Magic Destiny, Andromeda Princess, Grandeur of the
Stars, Sovereign of the stars, the Queen Hera, etc.
RQ-Y3313G5-093307-90000-0  Mcr798505.54 standard 1.5million dt
            Y   Y Y      TL=13 Crew=13235 Security Troops=1500
            Z   Z Z      Y=250  Z=500
Jump Fuel=450,000dt Plant Fuel=45,000dt EP=45000 Agility=1
Additional fuel=5000dt Fuel scoops and purification plant aboard
Auxiliary Bridge=1 Model7Fib=10 Code3 meson screens=1
Code3 nuclear dampers=10  10dt Sandcaster batteries=500
100dt repulsor bays=500  10dt Laser batteries=500
One 3250dt large craft bay [for visiting spacecraft]
One 51400dt small craft bay, carries:
2000 TL13 20dt QB lifeboats and 100 TL13 95dt RY Shuttlecraft
Crew=13235 [officers=2590 Ratings=10645] Security Troops=1500
Standard Cargo=100,000dt Passenger Cargo=50,000dt
Ships Stores=26,280dt Passengers=50,000 [1 each per 4dt stateroom]
Non-standard items from GT Starports:
10,000dt park habitat modules=10 10,000dt plaza habitat modules=12

Could qualify using Bk6 stats if you fudge the tech level:
Destiny Star DS00468-D NI Va 600Na 

TL13 RY Shuttlecraft
RY-02033A1-030000-20000-0 Mcr37.775 standard  95dt
            2     1           TL=13 Crew=5
            2     1
Fuel=5.7 EP=2.85 Agility=1 
Bridge with 3 additional crew couches [5 total]
Cargo=25 Passenger couches=55
Crew=1pilot, 1gunner, 1medic/steward, 2 stewards.

TL13 QB Lifeboat
QB-0202211-000000-00000-0 Mcr8.8 standard 20dt
no weapons                          TL=13 Crew=1
Fuel=1 EP=.4 Agility=2 Emergency low berths=8 Cargo=4


Assiniboia class gunned cruiser
The pride of the Regina Colonial Navy
CG-K4117D3-050000-60C07-0 Mcr10726.44 10000dt
            5     2 1 3   TL=10 Crew=121
            5     2 1 3   Marines=40
Fuel=1700dt EP=700 Agility=1 Fuel scoops and Purification plant aboard.
50dt missle bays=3  2dt Sandcaster batteries=5
5dt laser batteries=2  4500dt typeC particle accelerator
Carries two 40dt pinnaces with 2 beam lasers, 1 sandcaster, plus
20 emergency low berths Mcr24.25  Pinnaces are listed in Supplement 7,
page 46. They are TL9.
Crew=121[25 officers and 96 ratings] Marines=40[2 officers, 38 troops]
1 VIP passenger possible  Cargo=543dt
A related version, the Bourbon class gunned cruiser, uses a needle
configured hull instead of a box, costs Mcr11326.244


The reconfigured series: D609 Aconit of the French Navy

This is one of those adapted wet navy designs, using Ken Picks'
"Miscellaneous Note: Adapting "Wet-navy" Ships" from "Beyond Book 2:
Expanding the Basic Classic Traveller Starship Design System", available
at the Freelance Traveller website. I kept strictly to HG2 for the
design, so I fudged a little bit on the AAA guns.

D609 Aconit
DD-81146D2-040000-42002-0  Mcr745.366  830dt
            1     11  3    TL10  Crew=26
            1     11  3     Marines=8
Fuel=381.3 Ep=49.3 Agility=4 Cargo=16.9
Crew=1pilot, 1navigator, 8 engineers, 8 gunners, 1 comm specialist,
1 computer specialist, 1 medic, 1 admin orderly. Marines=8


Plop Historical designs: The Chameleon

The Chameleon
Originally from the Star Trek animated series episode "More Trouble with
Tribbles," The Chameleon is Cyrano Jones' ship. This attempted
Travellerization uses details from FASA's Star Trek RPG, which had full
details including a small deckplan. Note: Some fudging went into this
one. Also, design uses "Deck Cargo: Using External Pods For Increasing
Cargo Capacity,"  by Ken Pick, available at Freelance Traveller.

The Chameleon
with 50 dt cargo module.
MS-1123331-000000-00000-0 Mcr94.462 150dt
no weapons                          TL=13 Crew=1
Fuel=34.5dt Ep=4.5 Agile=3 Fuel scoops only; no fuel plant
Model 3 computer. Air/raft=1 Storage=3dt
double stateroom=1 "a masters cabin with lounge"
Carries one special custom 50dt streamlined cargo module [module
cargo=40dt] Cargo module by itself costs Mcr11. 
Note that a normal customized 50dt streamlined cargo module costs
Mcr5.5.

The Chameleon
without 50dt cargo module
MS-1134431-000000-00000-0 Mcr83.462 100dt
no weapons                          TL=13 Crew=1
Fuel=34.5dt Ep=4.5 Agile=3 Fuel scoops only; no fuel plant
Model 3 computer. Air/raft=1 Storage=3dt
double stateroom=1 "a masters cabin with lounge"

Notes on the special custom 50dt streamlined cargo module.
Quoting from "Again, Troublesome Tribbles" by FASA, ?1983
Cyrano has installed "added controls, which allow the cargo module to be
jettisoned in space and exploded by remote control. The walls of the
cargo module are lined with reflective materials which will act on
sensors in a manner similar to radar "chaff", masking Cyrano's escape,
at increased speed, in an emergency."

For HG2 purposes, a declaration to jettison the cargo module must be
made in the launch phase. This has the following effects:
In the range determination phase, the player with Chameleon may open 
range by one level. If previously at short range, he may go to long
range. If at long range, he may opt to dissengage. For combat purposes,
treat the "chaff" as a single Code9 sandcaster battery, available for
one turn only. O^

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
How mesons are created: The stork brings em.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:49:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:49:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 12:08:07AM +1200
References: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost> <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com> <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020419104758.A24689@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 12:08:07AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> The modern system has its origins in Medieval Europe, with knights 
> evolving into the aristocratic officer class, etc.

I believe that various socialists tried the `elect officer from the
ratings, by the ratings' method.  It didn't work very well.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Try travelling from state to state in America without a driver's license
and proof of insurance, to be yielded up to the first uniformed
road-thug who demands it.                       --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CBF6B82.9FD041AE@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:

> > From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
> >
> > Heinlein is often invoked in the science fiction world as an example of
> > libertarian principles at work.  I don't know how many have read his story
> > 'Coventry', which was set inside a huge area cordoned off by the U.S. and
> > completely without laws.  Citizens of the U.S. who broke the law were
> > banished to Coventry to live among the other people who felt they didn't
> > need the law.  Contrary to the expectations of the rugged individualist who
> > starts the story about to enter Coventry, the people inside Coventry
> > evolved their own law, but one that was imposed by the biggest sharks in
> > the pool and not so kind and gentle as the law they had just left
> > behind.  This was Heinlein's story that most directly addressed the issue,
> > and with writer as judge of the conflict between different poliltical
> > systems, he clearly found in favor of the democratic one and against the
> > libertarian one.
> 
> Thank you for remembering this. I knew there was a quite well written
> refutation in his work but I had forgotten the name. 

That's NOT a refutation of libertarianism, it's a refutation of anarchy.
True anarchy doesn't exist; there will always be some sort of social
order, even if it's based in "the biggest bully wins".

Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.  

> As a fairly hard lefty (hey I am a member of the DSA.
> http://www.dsausa.org if you don't know them. Keep in mind that I keep
> that link  in my religion folder... ;') I had a difficult time
> understanding some of his works when I was a teen. The way "Coventry" is
> written makes it very clear that a democracy that passes things against
> his ideals is a better place to him than a tyrany that is exactly in
> line with his thought. It's also useful to understand that one can
> respect while disagreeing. 

Yes, but libertarianism is NOT tyranny or anarchy, and the society in
"Coventry" is NOT libertarian.  A libertarian social contract supports the
right to life (for persons who have been born), liberty, property,
privacy, and free association.

I would expect someone from a group as maligned as the DSA to be able to
understand the difference.

And it depends, doesn't it?  If a "democracy" decides to make just being
who you are illegal because their governing body is so constructed as to
think the right of the majority to decide what's legal should extend into
your bedroom, then you are in a tyranny, aren't you?  If a "democracy"
decides to attach more than half of your property suddenly due to a change
in the public opinion made manifest in law, then you are in a tyranny,
aren't you?

Kiri, lifelong RAH fan and mostly libertarian...

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019237432.7515.ajackson@ping>

Kiri Aradia Morgan writes:
> 
> That's NOT a refutation of libertarianism, it's a refutation of anarchy.

Well, a lot of the libertarians seem to be anarchists in disguise, though it's
true that they're not technically the same thing.
> 
> Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
> exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
> should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
> do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.

Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith.  Or the Libertarian
party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:10:22AM -0700
References: <3CBF6B82.9FD041AE@mailbag.com> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020419113915.A24789@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:10:22AM -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>
> A libertarian social contract supports the right to life (for
> persons who have been born), liberty, property, privacy, and free
> association.

I'd like to point out--solely to avoid misunderstanding--that there is
debate within libertarian circles regarding the personhood of those
yet unborn, and that this naturally colours perception of the rights
appertaining thereto.  Not going to mention my own thoughts, as they
have no business being here.

Otherwise I quite agree with Kiri's post.  Although I've not read the
story in question, it very much sounded not like an argument against
liberty but an argument against anarchy.  While some libertarians tend
towards minarchy, and some even towards anarchy, mainstream
libertarian thought recognises a) that government is evil b) that lack
of government is yet more evil.  Thus the question is not whether to
eliminate it (the answer to that is definitely not) but how to
constrain it so that it protects the liberty of its citizens from all
encroachment.

Anarchists care about encroachment by government; authoritarians care
about encroachment by individuals.  Libertarians care about both, and
seek to find the balance necessary to promote the most liberty for the
most individuals in the best way.

> And it depends, doesn't it?  If a "democracy" decides to make just being
> who you are illegal because their governing body is so constructed as to
> think the right of the majority to decide what's legal should extend into
> your bedroom, then you are in a tyranny, aren't you?  If a "democracy"
> decides to attach more than half of your property suddenly due to a change
> in the public opinion made manifest in law, then you are in a tyranny,
> aren't you?

That's why I've always found emphasis on democracy to be more than a
little foolish.  Certainly, it appears that democracy has the best
chance of ensuring liberty--but it is just as capable of ensuring
tyranny.  I don't care who rules or how, so long as I am free.  If a
king, an emperor or the Great Purple Poobah of Penglesh ensures my
liberties, I'll quite happily be a subject.

ObTrav: This naturally colours my view of the Imperium.  MTU is not
the one of the early LBB adventures with an Imperium out of Star Wars
and megacorps out of cyberpunk.  I latched onto statements such as the
Imperium ruling the space between stars and it having an interest in
free trade and developed a TU much rosier, I think, that many others'.
I'm afraid it doesn't overly resemble the OTU, as in mine un-feoffed
[is that a word?] worlds are much less common: almost every world is
in the posession of a noble.

But I'm an idealist:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert
that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by
themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.
                                                  --Thomas Jefferson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Akins)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Andy Akins Still Around?
In-Reply-To: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419174744.A20BC279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>

David Smart wrote:
>Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Akins?

I do :)

>I'm trying to contact him re: his T4 ship design spreadsheet
>but the andyakins@earthlink.net address from his website
>keeps bouncing email.

Yup, that address is gone. I bought my own domain (leonidae.org) and I'm 
operating from that now...

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>Try andy@leonidae.org.  I was in touch with him in March at that address.

You are correct sir!

For the record, if anyone is looking for my spreadsheets, they are now at 
www.leonidae.org/

I'm _slowly_ adding more stuff to that site, but its gonna take me a while.

	Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Akins)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>

Okay, I think this may be pretty complicated, and I wouldn't be surprised if 
the answer is "Can't be done" or "Too hard" or "Go pick up a $200 Orbital 
Dyanmics Textbook and figure it out..."

But...

...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of 
a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system from above, and the 
primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital parameters of the planet (orbital 
radius, eccentricity, orbital speed, reference point, etc) and the date.

I'd actually like to be able to do this for _the_ solar system, that is enter 
"Nov 16 1969" and be able to plot where the planets are on X,Y paper.

Now, I know that there are comercial astronomy programs (Red Shifft, etc) 
that can do this sort of thing...but I need to try and build this into a 
different program, so I gotta write the algorithm myself.

ARgh.

If anyone can lend me hand, or point me to a website, or tell me that I'm 
nuts, I'd appreciate it....

	Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:59:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:59:56 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1@aol.com>

--part1_74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1_boundary
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>> Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
>> exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
>> should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
>> do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.
>
>Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith.  Or the Libertarian
>party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.

I've often found "minarchist" more useful than "libertarian." More
technically correct, and it hasn't been hijacked by anyone yet.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt;&gt; Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
<BR>&gt;&gt; exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
<BR>&gt;&gt; should not interfere in people's private lives: &nbsp;for instance, what they
<BR>&gt;&gt; do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt;Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith. &nbsp;Or the Libertarian
<BR>&gt;party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.
<BR>
<BR>I've often found "minarchist" more useful than "libertarian." More
<BR>technically correct, and it hasn't been hijacked by anyone yet.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C365F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Well, you ARE nuts, but I don't know if that's related to your current
project ;)
<ducking>

Jesse



<snip>
If anyone can lend me hand, or point me to a website, or tell me that I'm 
nuts, I'd appreciate it....

	Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:08:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:08:14 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <200204190855.BAA14300@ping.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20419.105906.7W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> True, nuclear dampers do imply a lot of bizarre manipulations of decay
> rates that it's very difficult to explain in a way that wouldn't prove
> instantly lethal to all life.  Considering that pions are the primary
> exchange particle of the strong force, nuclear dampers would be expected
> to influence them.
>
> Doesn't help much with the problem of 'mesons aren't notably penetrating
> particles'.  Of course, explaining how nuclear dampers don't change the
> laws of physics in ways that are instantly fatal to life is also a trick.

The only application of nuclear dampers I can think of where it would
*matter* that they were lethal is fixed screens around planetary
installations. 

Then again, they'd make far too good a "death ray" if they were. <sigh>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  Graphics Help
Message-ID: <20020419181048.28151.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

This is way off topic, but I was wondering if one of
the Graphic Guru's on the list would be willing to do
a little volunteer work for my son's baseball league. 
I'm beginning to work on their web site and I need to
get an emblem for them  I have some ideas, but I am
limited to MS Paint, and, well, that just don't cut
it. :)

Thanks,
Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20419.105906.7W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019240622.1051.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> The only application of nuclear dampers I can think of where it would
> *matter* that they were lethal is fixed screens around planetary
> installations. 
> 
> Then again, they'd make far too good a "death ray" if they were. <sigh>

Well, most obvious versions of nuclear dampers either have energy requirements
best measured in kilograms, or would tend to make matter explode and are well
suited to Death Star tricks.  Incidentally, even limiting ourselves to known
effects of nuclear dampers, they're well suited to producing nova-level flares
with a reasonable sized damper, focused to accelerate fusion, pointed at the
star.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
Message-ID: <20020419182536.82956.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

All the recent talk about jump drive and 100D limits
has gotten me thinking.  OK, the assumption first...

     The Jump Grid "erases" the effects of gravity/
     tidal force/whatever that would prevent a ship
     from being outside of its own 100D limit.

If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
have they discovered in regards to this test?

Might it be possible (if not practical) to exceed the
J-6 limit.  Immagine a J-6 small xboat jumping from
within the hull of a J-6 carrier.  Can we reach J-12,
J-36, or (gasp!) J-46,656 (6^6)?  This could be an
easy launch point for an "unusual" adventures.  As in
the following:


The Patron hires the players as a retrieval squad. 
Only later do they find out where the retrieval is. 
The have 3 J-6 ships.  The HUGE, the Medium, and the
small.  The Medium is designed to Jump twice and then
Slag the J-Drive.  It doesn't have anything else of
its own, simply a hull, fuel, and a J-6 drive.  The
Huge and Medium engage together with the Small in the
hull of the Medium (and the PC's in the Small).  The
Medium Jumps 46,656 parsecs into an unknown territory.
 The PC's have to retrieve the scientist who tested
the first ship and return by engaging the Medium and
Small J-6's at the same time to get home.

I know it isn't official canon (cannon?) or is it? 
Have all the research experiments from all the
research stations in the Imperium been posted to the
citizens?  Hmmm.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:33:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:33:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020419182536.82956.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019241046.5627.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> 
> If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
> HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
> during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
> entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
> stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
> have they discovered in regards to this test?

My suspicion would be 'both ships disappear'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>; from andy@leonidae.org on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:53:42PM -0500
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419130413.B24789@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:53:42PM -0500, Andy Akins wrote:
> 
> ...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of 
> a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system from above, and the 
> primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital parameters of the planet (orbital 
> radius, eccentricity, orbital speed, reference point, etc) and the date.

Well, for the simplest case assume that the planet is in a perfect
circular orbit around its star and that it started its orbit directly
`north' of that star.  Planet.period is the time it take to complete 1
rotation around the star.

orbit_degree(planet, time) = 360*time/planet.period mod 360

Then from orbit_degree it's fairly simple to determine where along the
circle the planet is.  For a very simple first approximation of a
planetary orbit, this is sufficient--for a slightly less simple an a
random deviation based on eccentricity.


It gets rather more complicated from there.

A real orbit is an ellipse, with the star being rotated around at one
of the focii (not really true, but close enough).

<http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html> should provide something
of a start.  I've gotten as far as determining the definitions of
major and minor axes in terms of eccentricity.  If one assumes that
the `average seperation' used in GT is the average of min and max
seperations, not the average distance over time, then the major axis
2a is simpy min_sep + max_sep, and the minor axis 2b =
2a*sqrt(1-ecc^2).

I don't recall which definition of average seperation GT uses.  I've a
nasty feeling that sometimes it's simply the average of min and max,
and sometimes it's an average over time.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty
clearly to protect political discourse.  But liberals reject the notion
that free speech is therefore limited to political topics, even broadly
defined.  True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself.
But why leap to the conclusion that a broadly worded constitutional
freedom (`the right of the people to keep and bear arms') is narrowly
limited by its stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away?
My New Republic colleague Mickey Kaus says that if liberals interpreted
the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest of the Bill of
Rights, there would be law professors arguing that gun ownership is
mandatory.       --Michael Kinsley Washington Post, January 8, 1990

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:10:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:10:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419145637.041a0f88@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:53 PM 4/19/2002, Andy Akins wrote:
>Okay, I think this may be pretty complicated [...] I would _really_ like a 
>formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of a planet.


I have a book (that's about 20 years old now) called _Practical Astronomy 
with Your Calculator_ that may be of use to you.  Particularly if you're 
going for gaming-accuracy approximations (rather than pointing a real 
telescope or navigating an actual spacecraft).  It appears to have been 
revised in 1990, and looks like it's still in print.  Go to Amazon.com, and 
punch in the title; it should come right up.

It's mainly aimed at the backyard astronomer, but I think there is enough 
information given to translate between the various coordinate systems, and 
provide the X,Y coordinates that you're asking for.  Also browsing through 
the astronomy section on Amazon, I saw _Fundamentals of Astrodynamics_, 
which is inexpensive and appears to be useful.

Good luck,


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

.
> 
> Pilots are made into officers for reasons of
> tradition and there's no 
> real reason for them to be, no matter what they
> might say on this.
> 
Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
or no reason for them to be grunts first?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>; from andy@leonidae.org on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:53:42PM -0500
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>

Here's some more info from the page I mentioned
<http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html>.  Assuming, once again,
that the standard orbital radius is the simple of min and max radii,
we have:

(1) min_sep + max_sep = 2a (the major axis; distance from one end of the
			   orbit to another)

(2) min_sep(planet) = planet.radius*(1-planet.ecc)

(3) max_sep(planet) = planet.radius*(1+planet.ecc)

and thus:

(4) major(planet) = 2*planet.radius

(5) semimajor(planet) = planet.radius

We also have a function returning current degree from `north':

(6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)

Given orbital_deg(), we can find distance from a focus by:

(7) radius(planet,time) = (semimajor(planet)*(1-planet.ecc^2)) /
    (1+planet.ecc*cos(orbital_deg(planet, time)))

And for an ellipse, where theta = orbital_deg(planet,time), r =
radius(planet, time) and c = semimajor(planet)*planet.ecc:

(8) x = c + r cos theta
(9) y = r sin theta

Which in our case reduces to:

(8a) x(planet, time) = semimajor(planet)*planet.ecc +
		       semimajor(planet)*(1-planet.ecc^2)

(9a) y(planet, time) = radius(planet, time) * orbital_deg(planet, time)

None of this has been tested outed, and I could very well be
wrong--I'm no physicist, and while I was a Math/CS major the emphasis
was on CS.  And I'm rusty.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A properly balanced sword is the most versatile weapon for close
quarters ever devised: a sword never jams, never has to be reloaded;
it is always ready.                               --Robert Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>

Paul Walker writes:
> 
> If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
> HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
> during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
> entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
> stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
> have they discovered in regards to this test?

I wouldn't recommend engaging a jump drive while sitting in the hold of a
ship already in jump-space. As far as the results of such an event, I would
assume a 99.9% chance of a catastrophic catastrophy.
Perhaps there'd be a One in a Trillion chance that the ship would end up
300,000 LY away in the Andromeda Galaxy (or at the exit 13A Toll Plaza on
the NJ Turnpike for that matter).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:41:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:41:30 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8E5C044.577B2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/19/02 12:32 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> or no reason for them to be grunts first?
> 

The Air Force doesn't have 'grunts'.  Didn't you know that?  They have
technicians (Excepting Para Rescue and a few other oddballs who'd probably
be happier in the Army or Marines. :)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:44:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:44:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1019245236.0.55880100@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Mr. Whipsnade posted:
>
<snip>
> As you all well know, I'm not the sharpest tool
> in the shed
<snip>

EXCUSE ME? After your "Colossus" posts detailing your alternate ending to the MT Rebellion, I'll be happy to debate your statement with you or anyone else.

That was a masterful piece of work, sir, and one that has become a permanent part of my MT campaigns. I haven't seen much of your other work but quality, not quantity, is the mark of excellence (as Imperium Games found out the hard way).

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020419113915.A24789@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191235301.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:10:22AM -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> >
> > A libertarian social contract supports the right to life (for
> > persons who have been born), liberty, property, privacy, and free
> > association.
> 
> I'd like to point out--solely to avoid misunderstanding--that there is
> debate within libertarian circles regarding the personhood of those
> yet unborn, and that this naturally colours perception of the rights
> appertaining thereto.  Not going to mention my own thoughts, as they
> have no business being here.

There is always going to be debate, but I'm talking about what nearly all
libertarians can agree on, which is that people who have been born have
the right to continue living, unless of course they are killed by someone 
who is defending themselves against their attack.
 
> Otherwise I quite agree with Kiri's post.  Although I've not read the
> story in question, it very much sounded not like an argument against
> liberty but an argument against anarchy. 

Exactly so.  But then, we usually agree about political matters, and we
both regard matters of religion as private.  :)

> While some libertarians tend towards minarchy, and some even towards
> anarchy, mainstream libertarian thought recognises a) that government
> is evil b) that lack of government is yet more evil.  Thus the
> question is not whether to eliminate it (the answer to that is
> definitely not) but how to constrain it so that it protects the
> liberty of its citizens from all encroachment.

Exactly.
 
> Anarchists care about encroachment by government; authoritarians care
> about encroachment by individuals.  Libertarians care about both, and
> seek to find the balance necessary to promote the most liberty for the
> most individuals in the best way.

That is the best explanation I've heard yet.  Might steal it for the quote
file if you don't mind.

> > And it depends, doesn't it?  If a "democracy" decides to make just being
> > who you are illegal because their governing body is so constructed as to
> > think the right of the majority to decide what's legal should extend into
> > your bedroom, then you are in a tyranny, aren't you?  If a "democracy"
> > decides to attach more than half of your property suddenly due to a change
> > in the public opinion made manifest in law, then you are in a tyranny,
> > aren't you?
> 
> That's why I've always found emphasis on democracy to be more than a
> little foolish.  Certainly, it appears that democracy has the best
> chance of ensuring liberty--but it is just as capable of ensuring
> tyranny.  I don't care who rules or how, so long as I am free.  If a
> king, an emperor or the Great Purple Poobah of Penglesh ensures my
> liberties, I'll quite happily be a subject.

I can certainly understand that, but whatever the government is, it should
have checks and balances.  The problem with monarchy is that it's usually
hereditary and there's no guarantee that a monarch who ensures our liberty
will be succeeded by another one just like him/her.

> ObTrav: This naturally colours my view of the Imperium.  MTU is not
> the one of the early LBB adventures with an Imperium out of Star Wars
> and megacorps out of cyberpunk.  I latched onto statements such as the
> Imperium ruling the space between stars and it having an interest in
> free trade and developed a TU much rosier, I think, that many others'.
> I'm afraid it doesn't overly resemble the OTU, as in mine un-feoffed
> [is that a word?] worlds are much less common: almost every world is
> in the posession of a noble.
> 
> But I'm an idealist:-)

Indeed.  I'm more of a cold, hard realist; my libertarianism springs from
the knowledge that if you give 200 million people a voice in your private
life, or what you can own, or what you can do with what you own, they'll
often take it... and feel justified in so doing, if you allow yourself to 
become dependent upon their largesse, enforced or not.... :)

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:51:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:51:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019245364.3010.ajackson@ping>

Robert A. Uhl writes:
> Here's some more info from the page I mentioned
> <http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html>.  Assuming, once again,
> that the standard orbital radius is the simple of min and max radii,

It's usually the semi-major axis, which is, yes, the average of min and max.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:56:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:56:13 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

laning wrote:
> 
>> Does AOL offer SMTP and (POP3 or IMAP) to its subscribers?  If so, you
>> can use any mail client you wish.  I understand that Mozilla's is very
>> good, for those who like GUI clients.
> 
> 
> Not last I heard.  There was an alpha test of that using employees only 
> a couple or three years ago and it wandered into a swamp and never came 
> out.  

Au contraire, mon frere....I am happily using Mozilla 0.9.9 right now, 
with the magic 1.0 release coming in about a month. It will be a rather 
well-behaved 1.0 release as well.

http://www.mozilla.org

Mozilla has been my main browser/mail application for over a year now, 
and I am quite pleased with it.

You might have seen it as Netscape 6.2...(same program with a Netscape 
theme) Netscape 6.0 was the MOzilla 0.7 or 0.8 release, was slow and had 
many bugs, but the current version is quite nice, and a good performer, imo.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:58:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:58:44 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019237432.7515.ajackson@ping>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419154608.00b8a5f0@urbin.net>

At 10:30 AM 4/19/02 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Kiri Aradia Morgan writes:
> > That's NOT a refutation of libertarianism, it's a refutation of anarchy.
>Well, a lot of the libertarians seem to be anarchists in disguise, though it's
>true that they're not technically the same thing.

Well, perhaps when viewed from a leftist lens.
Libertarians do not believe in a "Nanny State" that is the dream/goal of 
many dempublicans.
The Libertarianism is not anarchy. It is, as Kiri pointed out, a clearly 
defined social contract between the citizens of the state and the 
government they selected to run it.

> > Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
> > exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
> > should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
> > do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.
>Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith.  Or the Libertarian
>party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.

Hmm...I just stopped by <http://www.lp.org/> and read some position papers.
I agree with Kiri.  She just happened to pick and example of a single 
position that the ACLU happens to agree with the LP platform.

In fact, the LP web site lists the ACLU (along with a link) as an 
organization that also supports privacy rights.
I wonder if you can find a link to the Libertarian Party site anywhere on 
the ACLU site...


ObTrav: Nope...not going there...I vote this thread goes to the tml-chat list.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:02:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:02:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <DAV14zx4iXK3M38gh6y00018aa9@hotmail.com>

------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C1E7BA.B573E810
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Don't forge the influence of Rand on Libertarianism.
And of course, don't forget that the current Libertarian party leadership=
 fully believes in guilt by association. Consider the habits of Rand and =
the later writings of Heinlein and then consider what they say about Libe=
rtarians.

Of course, I like Norman Spinrad and his take on electronic democracy. :-=
P


Sam

------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C1E7BA.B573E810
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Don't forge th=
e influence of Rand on Libertarianism.</DIV> <DIV>And of course, don't fo=
rget that the current Libertarian party leadership fully believes in guil=
t by association. Consider the habits of Rand and the later writings of H=
einlein and then consider what they say about Libertarians.</DIV> <DIV>&n=
bsp;</DIV> <DIV>Of course, I like Norman Spinrad and his take on electron=
ic democracy. :-P</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Sam</DIV=
></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C1E7BA.B573E810--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:10:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:10:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419154608.00b8a5f0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019246981.7419.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:

> In fact, the LP web site lists the ACLU (along with a link) as an 
> organization that also supports privacy rights.
> I wonder if you can find a link to the Libertarian Party site anywhere on 
> the ACLU site...

Well, I can't find _any_ links to other organizations on the ACLU site, so no. 
You can find some court cases where the ACLU and the libertarian party were
co-defendants, however.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191235301.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:41:40PM -0700
References: <20020419113915.A24789@4dv.net> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191235301.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020419141527.A25183@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:41:40PM -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> There is always going to be debate, but I'm talking about what nearly all
> libertarians can agree on, which is that people who have been born have
> the right to continue living, unless of course they are killed by someone 
> who is defending themselves against their attack.

I'd phrase it as `libertarians believe that people have the right to
go on living, unless they do something to negate that right.'  By
leaving unsaid what a person is, and what can be done to negate that
right, we've a definition that just about anyone can, I think agree
to.  And then argue to their heart's content about the undefined
terms.  On another list...

> > Anarchists care about encroachment by government; authoritarians care
> > about encroachment by individuals.  Libertarians care about both, and
> > seek to find the balance necessary to promote the most liberty for the
> > most individuals in the best way.
> 
> That is the best explanation I've heard yet.  Might steal it for the quote
> file if you don't mind.

I don't believe in restricting non-deceptive quoting:-)

> I can certainly understand that, but whatever the government is, it should
> have checks and balances.  The problem with monarchy is that it's usually
> hereditary and there's no guarantee that a monarch who ensures our liberty
> will be succeeded by another one just like him/her.

Yep--that's why I said that democracy seems to be the best.  I wonder,
though, how a combined system would work.  A king, an aristocratic
house, a common house a democratic plebiscites.  Balance them all
against one another and with any luck once they'd gotten around to:
forbidding murder, rape, theft and fraud; establishing property and
privacy law; and funding the military, they'd just settle down into
fruitless doing nothing.

> Indeed.  I'm more of a cold, hard realist; my libertarianism springs from
> the knowledge that if you give 200 million people a voice in your private
> life, or what you can own, or what you can do with what you own, they'll
> often take it... and feel justified in so doing, if you allow yourself to 
> become dependent upon their largesse, enforced or not.... :)

That's why I like the idea of a government of men, not laws.  It's
dashed difficult to kill a law, but very easy to kill a man.  Being a
man, he knows this, and acts circumspectly.

See, there's one Emperor.  And a septillion sophonts out there.  He'd
better be doing his best not to alienate too many of them at any one
time.

This would, of course, lead to priority being given to worlds near
Capital, as they are the ones for which it is simplest to retaliate.
But to balance that fact IMTU there's a fairly active Moot, which
being made of equal representatives from across the Imperium tends to
level that voice out (much as in the US Colo. has nearly the same
voice in federal affairs that Va. has).  There's a balance between the
Emperor and the Moot such that for both the man and the entity the
best path is the way of least action.

Which in a government is a desirable thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To murder a man is much odious, to kill a woman is in manner unnatural,
but to slay and destroy innocent babes and young infants, the whole
world abhorreth, and their blood from the earth crieth for vengeance to
almighty God.                                    --Edward Hall, c. 1480

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV14zx4iXK3M38gh6y00018aa9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E5C9B9.577DC%listmom@travellercentral.com>

on 4/19/02 12:56 PM, Samuel Weiss at samwise1@msn.com wrote:
  
>Sam

Sam,

Please don't use styled text on the list.

Thanks

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019246981.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8E5CAD9.577E6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/19/02 1:09 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> 
> Well, I can't find _any_ links to other organizations on the ACLU site, so no.
> You can find some court cases where the ACLU and the libertarian party were
> co-defendants, however.

That doesn't say much. I seem to recall the ACLU and NRA being co-plaintiffs
recently.  

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020419202918.31056.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
> Paul Walker writes:
> > 
> > If this is the case, what would happen if there
> were a
> > HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump
> (or
> > during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
> > entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
> > stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
> > have they discovered in regards to this test?
> 
> I wouldn't recommend engaging a jump drive while
> sitting in the hold of a
> ship already in jump-space. As far as the results of
> such an event, I would
> assume a 99.9% chance of a catastrophic catastrophy.
> Perhaps there'd be a One in a Trillion chance that
> the ship would end up
> 300,000 LY away in the Andromeda Galaxy (or at the
> exit 13A Toll Plaza on
> the NJ Turnpike for that matter).

But why?  This is the second reply I got that said it
would be a bad thing and would probably destroy all
ships involved.  Is there any support for this?  I'm
not opposed to non OTU, but my original question was
whether there was anything in the official rules
and/or history to support or prevent such occurances?

Thanks,
Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Sorry to take up space with this.

Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in stand=
ard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I have wrong=
?


Sam

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff" STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"=
><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Sorry to take up space with this.</DIV> <DIV>&nbs=
p;</DIV> <DIV>Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was=
 sent in standard format. I use arial as my font.<FONT color=3D#000000>&n=
bsp;What other setting&nbsp;might I have wrong?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;<=
/DIV> <DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] the handwaving is getting closer to real life
Message-ID: <200204192111.EOL06094@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Yet another variant on "quantum" something.

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2861822,
00.html
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:25:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:25:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191423490.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Samuel Weiss wrote:

> 
> Sorry to take up space with this.
> 
> Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in
> standard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I
> have wrong?

The fact that you HAVE a "font" setting means that you are using styled
text-- your mail client may be calling it "rich text" or HTML instead,
though.

Please turn it off.

Thanks,
Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419172919.00b89740@urbin.net>

Plain ASCII would be best.

At 04:37 PM 4/19/02 -0400, Samuel Weiss wrote:
>
>Sorry to take up space with this.
>
>Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in 
>standard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I have wrong?
>
>
>Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019240622.1051.ajackson@ping>
References: <20419.105906.7W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <ML-2.3.1019240622.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020420073353.A4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> they're well suited to producing nova-level flares with a reasonable
> sized damper, focused to accelerate fusion, pointed at the star.

I've always thought of them as affecting only isotopes that were
already unstable, essentially just modifying the probability that they
decay right there and then.  They can accelerate decay of radiocative
materials, or prevent it.  They can suppress a fission chain reaction
by preventing the decay of nuclei that have one too many neutrons, or
accelerate it by increasing the rate at which the fuel nuclei decay
initially.

IMTU, their effect on pure fusion is almost negligible.  If you could
project the field into the core of a star, you might be able to stop
some of the side-reactions based on decay of unstable isotopes, but
this would not have an immediate effect.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:39:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:39:13 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <B8E5CAD9.577E6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191434420.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/19/02 1:09 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Well, I can't find _any_ links to other organizations on the ACLU site, so no.
> > You can find some court cases where the ACLU and the libertarian party were
> > co-defendants, however.
> 
> That doesn't say much. I seem to recall the ACLU and NRA being co-plaintiffs
> recently.  

Well, that really ought to happen more often, given the fact that the ACLU
is supposed to be engaged in protecting the Bill of Rights.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:42:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:42:09 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net> <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020420074153.B4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Au contraire, mon frere....I am happily using Mozilla 0.9.9 right now, 
> with the magic 1.0 release coming in about a month. It will be a rather 
> well-behaved 1.0 release as well.

I think laning was referring to POP & IMAP test having wandered into a
swamp, not to Mozilla.  (Did mozilla even have functional mail a year
or three ago?)


> You might have seen it as Netscape 6.2...(same program with a
> Netscape theme) Netscape 6.0 was the MOzilla 0.7 or 0.8 release, was
> slow and had many bugs, but the current version is quite nice, and a
> good performer, imo.

Yes, I use Mozilla 0.9.9 as my everyday web browser.  I use mutt as my
email client.  Not because Mozilla's is bad, just because Mutt is
*good* and I often like to use it from work over a 56k connection :)
(In the words of the author -- "All mail clients suck.  This one just
sucks less.")


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:49:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:49:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020419202918.31056.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419164150.01eb9740@mail.qrc.com>

At 04:29 PM 4/19/2002, Paul Walker wrote:
>[Is] there was anything in the official rules and/or history to support or 
>prevent such occurances?

The specific situation - attempting to activate a jump drive while already 
in jump space - is (to the best of my knowledge) undefined in all versions 
of the Traveller rules.  Thus, in your Traveller universe you can have any 
sort of outcome you would like.  However, I believe Marc Miller is on 
record as saying on numerous occasions that any sort of controlled jump 
longer than 6 parsecs is flatly impossible in Traveller.

In every other case that is covered by the rules, attempting to do 
something unusual with a jump drive causes one of three results: either 
nothing happens, the ship misjumps, or is catastrophically destroyed.  Any 
of these would be appropriate, and destruction sounds most likely to me as 
well.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <20020420074153.B4777@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 07:41:53AM +1000
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net> <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020420074153.B4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020419155915.A25440@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 07:41:53AM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Yes, I use Mozilla 0.9.9 as my everyday web browser.  I use mutt as
> my email client.

Ditto on both counts here.  Mozilla is simply the best browser out
there (tabbed browsing has changed my web browsing habits for good).
Mutt is an excellent little MUA.

I have been considering using gnus or RMAIL to read mail, though.
Both are within emacs, and with a little bit of work on a few things
I'd never need to leave the great Editor-that-Is.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give
orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem,
pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently,
die gallantly.  Specialization is for insects.
                            --Robert Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420073353.A4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019253756.6212.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> I've always thought of them as affecting only isotopes that were
> already unstable, essentially just modifying the probability that they
> decay right there and then.

So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier around a
nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many nuclei, since the range
of the strong force is important), or you're altering the probability of
quantum tunneling (which I suspect would have dire effects on chemistry).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEHMDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi

You need to solve Kepler's Equations to get the "mean anomaly" and from that
determine the orbital coordinates.

It's not simple, the equation is something like E = msinE, so the answer is
also part of the equation, and the only real method of solution is to
iteration.

To get that far, you need to have five, maybe six values to define an
orbital path - argument of perihelion, longitude of ascending node,
inclination to ecliptic plane, semimajor axis, orbital eccentricity - and
the point in time (the "epoch") for which all of these apply. You will need
to be aware of time here, as astronomers use standard timescales to
eliminate issues associated with timezones etc, and also the difference
between the solar day and the sidereal (i.e. stellar day) of 3mins 56secs.

On top of that, orbits are perturbed by other planets and objects, and you
need to account for atmospheric effects (refraction) and lightspeed lag
(aberration) if you intend to draw a night sky view. If you want to do it
over a very long period, then you need to account for precession of orbital
nodes/elements as well.

However, I've written a Java Orrery for my RuneQuest campaign world that
accounts for all of the above, and can predict eclipses, various planetary
alignments, zodiacal houses and a few bits besides. With a bit of work it
could handle any solar system you like to imagine.

Mail me off list and I'll see what I can do.

Regards

Andy Brick

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 17/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
> .
> > 
> > Pilots are made into officers for reasons of
> > tradition and there's no 
> > real reason for them to be, no matter what they
> > might say on this.
> > 
> Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> or no reason for them to be grunts first?
> 
  >>
  Pilots are officers because the military does not
want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
why........

     MACessna
  >>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:43:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:43:27 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
 <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8e64cae2f75@[143.232.119.186]>

At 6:45 PM +1000 4/19/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>Brian Caball wrote:
>>  Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel"
>>  problems: Nuclear Damping Technology.
>
>The only problem is, why doesn't a meson gun then function
>automatically as a perfect meson screen?  If you can prevent your
>mesons decaying over distances of up to millions of kilometres, why
>can't you ensure that the other guy's mesons don't decay within a
>range of twenty metres?

This is close to the explination I've always used.  Meson guns 
contrive to produce mesons with a known lifetime though the use of 
technology related to what they use for nuclear dampers.

Why doesn't that make them also meson screens?  One answers is the 
limitations in word "related".  It can be related without having the 
same configuration you need for screen.  The second is that if the 
effect acts inside the weapon, then it would only act as a screen for 
mesons shot into the weapon.

If you want a full fledged screen, you have to set it up that way....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 17:43:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 19 16:43:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Message from John G. Wood -- [OT] New Gamer :)
Message-ID: <74.1b98a336.29f20575@aol.com>

Here's a message John has asked me to forward to the TML:


 >Folks,
 >
 >Some of you may remember me - I was a member of the list up until about
 >a  year ago, although never a prolific poster. Since many of you have 
 >expressed personal interest in the past, I've asked Michael to post
 >this  for me.
 >
 >Our son Isaac was born in the early hours of Friday 12th April,
 >weighing  in at 8lb 4oz (3.75kg) - everything went well, mother and
 >baby were home  by 7:30 *AM*, and we're settling into a new routine of
 >sorts. His big  sister May (two years old on the 17th) is fascinated by
 >him. I've put some  pictures up on the website at
 >http://www.elvwood.org/Family/BabyIsaac.html 
 >- larger versions are linked from the thumbnails.
 >
 >For those who care, my Traveller gaming has actually increased slightly
 > since I left the list. I got to meet (and play GURPS Traveller with) a
 >TML  member at GenCon UK [waves to Megan], then played two games of
 >classic at  Dragonmeet - where I also got to sign copies of _101
 >Corporations_, which  was a laugh.
 >
 >Take care all,
 >
 >John <john@elvwood.org> http://www.elvwood.org/Traveller/
 >
 >P.S. I recently updated the website; the Traveller section hasn't
 >changed  much but the GURPS section has expanded quite a bit.
 >
 >P.P.S. I also moved hosts. Using the Elvwood domain in links (rather
 >than  the actual site it points to) is best since I own it, so it won't
 >change.
 >

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020420102803.C4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Akins wrote:
> ...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y
> coordinates of a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system
> from above, and the primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital
> parameters of the planet (orbital radius, eccentricity, orbital
> speed, reference point, etc) and the date.

Go pick up a $200 orbital dynamics textbook and figure it out.  :)


That said, if you're willing to ignore interactions between planets,
you can get a reasonable approximation with simple trig functions.  It
won't give you enough accuracy to point a telescope at them, but it
will suffice for a 2D graphical display of a system.

Start with the semi-major axis 'a' (the average of closest and most
distant approach to the star), and the eccentricity 'e'.  You can work
out the period from this, using

 T = 2 pi / sqrt(G M / a^3),

where M is the mass of the star and G is the gravitational constant.
(Oddly enough, it does not depend upon the eccentricity).

The distance 'r' from the star at a given angle 'theta' from
perihelion is given by

  r = a (1 - e^2) / (1 + e cos theta)

So this gives you the shape of the orbit.  The position variation with
time is rather messier.  I couldn't find a formula anywhere, so I
built one myself:

Let 't' be the number of orbits (or fractional orbits).  Then

  theta = 2 arctan ((1+e) tan(pi t) / sqrt(1-e^2)).  (I hope)

So for any given time, you can work out theta and hence r.


The overview: use heliocentric coordinates, i.e. with the sun at 0,0.
Find the semimajor axis 'a' and eccentricity 'a' for the planet, and
some time 'T0' when it passed through perihelion.  Also find the
angular position of that perihelion 'theta0' (relative to your X
axis).  Calculate T.

Now for any given time T1, t = (T1 - T0) / T.  Work out theta based on
t, and r based on theta.  Let theta1 = theta + theta0.

Now, X = r cos theta1, Y = r sin theta1, and you're done!

Of course, I may have made all sorts of blunders in my calculations
here, I haven't had breakfast yet!  This algorithm is offered without
warranty, including the implied warranties of merchantability ... etc.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020420103427.D4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> We also have a function returning current degree from `north':
> 
> (6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)

This is a problematic formula.  The angle swept out by a planet in
orbit is not linear in time (which I'm guessing is what you meant).
It varies in a more complicated manner.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019253756.6212.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020420073353.A4777@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1019253756.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier
> around a nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many
> nuclei, since the range of the strong force is important), or you're
> altering the probability of quantum tunneling (which I suspect would
> have dire effects on chemistry).

The latter, but only for nucleons.  This should have virtually no
effect on chemistry, which depends exclusively on electron
wavefunctions.  It would have a an effect on fusion in cases where the
fusing plasma is only marginally hot enough.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEHMDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEHMDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020420104411.F4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Brick wrote:
> To get that far, you need to have five, maybe six values to define
> an orbital path - argument of perihelion, longitude of ascending
> node, inclination to ecliptic plane, semimajor axis, orbital
> eccentricity - and the point in time (the "epoch") for which all of
> these apply.

You don't need the longitude of the ascending node or the inclination
to ecliptic plane if you're just interested in a 2D planar system.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019263660.4086.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier
> > around a nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many
> > nuclei, since the range of the strong force is important), or you're
> > altering the probability of quantum tunneling (which I suspect would
> > have dire effects on chemistry).
> 
> The latter, but only for nucleons.

Aha, so we have magically targeted changes in the rules of quantum mechanics.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 19:08:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 18:08:15 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEHCGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Gee,

And to think I thought you just took a bunch on Quarks, 
stirred in just enough gluons and VOILA!!!!

Seriously once you get into that energy domain, chemistry
is the last thing you are worried about.


JML
"Now kids, make sure that your triggering charge fuses the Hydrogen 
Nuclei all at once."

A scene from the last episode of 'Fun with Chemistry'.


Subject: Re: [TML] How Mesons a

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier
> around a nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many
> nuclei, since the range of the strong force is important), or you're
> altering the probability of quantum tunneling (which I suspect would
> have dire effects on chemistry).

The latter, but only for nucleons.  This should have virtually no
effect on chemistry, which depends exclusively on electron
wavefunctions.  It would have a an effect on fusion in cases where the
fusing plasma is only marginally hot enough.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 19:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 18:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020420103427.D4777@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:34:27AM +1000
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net> <20020420103427.D4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020419191148.A25850@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:34:27AM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > We also have a function returning current degree from `north':
> > 
> > (6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)
> 
> This is a problematic formula.  The angle swept out by a planet in
> orbit is not linear in time (which I'm guessing is what you meant).
> It varies in a more complicated manner.

Well, it _was_ an off-the-cuff first approximation.  I understand that
it actually accelerates towards the star, zips around it, then slows
down as it flies away.  Which is something the opposite of what my
formula would do--it'd appear to move more quickly at the far end as
at the near bit.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I remember when everybody posted to Usenet with their real, deliverable
e-mail address.  Of all the sins committed by the spammers, destroying
the viability of the open Internet was the worst.
                      --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 19:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Fri Apr 19 18:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS TML SKILLS
References: <20020417145227.5577E279F2@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <19435.1019129225@www58.gmx.net>

Michael Hughes wrote:
> I love Megatraveller, but like all RPGers I changed it to taste. So for my
> system, which has a combo of MT & T4 skills, plus some of my own, any
> skill
> that is related gives a Synergy bonus. For example, I consider Computers
> and
> Robotics linked skills. If you have a Skill level of 2-3 you can add a DM
> of
> 1 to a linked skill, and if Skill level 4+ add 2. If you have more than
> one
> linked skill then you only add the highest bonus. 

Nice idea - I could propably implement something like that into starship
combat, where IMHO the human aspect is overruled by computers... 'synergyzing'
skills and computers would be more to my taste.

> I have found it works very well. I am more than happy to email to you if
> you're interested, along with the reworked task & generation rules. 

That would be superb :-)  I'm allways looking for new input, especially
regarding something that's been around as long as MT.
So feel free to use my upper adress...

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419191148.A25850@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEHFGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Off the top of my head.

As you know in a given amount of time a 
planet will sweep a constant area.  Assuming 
a reasonably non eccentric orbit this could 
be approximated as an rissoles triangle with 
each long arm being the orbital radius.  The 
planet would cover a distance of roughly 
the magic area divided by the orbital radius.  
At the beginning of the next time period the 
planet's radius is (old radius + ( eccentricity
* (Magic time/orbital period) * [ 1 if 
receding from the Sun, -1 if approaching the Sun]).  
You have all three sides so use the law of cosines
to extract the angle swept, accumulate it from your 
starting angle to find the new angle.  Repeat this 
until you get to the time you want.

You only have  to calculate to half an orbit. 
If you supply the area, the starting angle, and 
the starting radius in addition to the normal 
information and you only need generate its radius 
and angle when a ship is jumping.

Unfortunately I can't see off the top of my head 
a quick way to extract the correct orbital radius 
and angle at any arbitrary time without recursion 
and a number of calculations


Yes, I realize that this will break down close to 
the primary and with eccentric orbits.

jml

Given what I recall doing in high school shop class,
I'm not all that certain that letting secondary students learn 
recombinant DNA techniques is all that good an idea.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:34:27AM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > We also have a function returning current degree from `north':
> > 
> > (6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)
> 
> This is a problematic formula.  The angle swept out by a planet in
> orbit is not linear in time (which I'm guessing is what you meant).
> It varies in a more complicated manner.

Well, it _was_ an off-the-cuff first approximation.  I understand that
it actually accelerates towards the star, zips around it, then slows
down as it flies away.  Which is something the opposite of what my
formula would do--it'd appear to move more quickly at the far end as
at the near bit.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I remember when everybody posted to Usenet with their real, deliverable
e-mail address.  Of all the sins committed by the spammers, destroying
the viability of the open Internet was the worst.
                      --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>

At 03:35 PM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Pilots are officers because the military does not
>want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
>flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
>though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
>the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
>arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
>that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
>wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
>why........

That being said, during WWII the Germans used enlisted pilots, as did the 
RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying sergeants, since they thought 
there was no reason to tie up perfectly good officers in what was 
essentially a technical skill.  That died as carriers came to the fore, and 
more Marines came to be stationed on ships. Many of the old Flying 
Sergeants received reserve commissions as officers, while retaining their 
permanent rank as enlisted men.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019263660.4086.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1019263660.4086.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020420121558.A5360@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Aha, so we have magically targeted changes in the rules of quantum
> mechanics.

Yes, that's the one :)

It goes well with the magical reactionless thrusters (or magical
HEPlaR), magical jump drive, magical meson beams, magical gravity
suppression, magical artifical gravity, and magical computer viruses.
After that, you've got the *real* magic of the Ancients' stuff...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419192446.021e1ec0@mail.verizon.net>

Hi Larsen,

Try searching for the term   "table of organization and 
equipment"   (include the surrounding quotes). I had a lot of hits when 
taking that approach.  Sorry for putting this on the web, but I can't 
contact you offlist without an email address.  :-)

Best regards and happy surfing!

Charles


At 01:45 AM 4/19/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
>     Could some kind soul please contact me off-List with some links to 
> sites that list various combat formation TO&Es?  I've tried Google until 
> my eyes crossed with no avail.  As you all well know, I'm not the 
> sharpest tool in the shed and my surfing abilities suffer as a consequence.
>     The recent TML thread discussing unit TO&Es and the well deserved 
> praise for Mr. Berry's accomplishments regarding them in GT:GF gave me 
> cause to flush all the unit descriptions in my "Dirty Little War" project.
>     Specifically, I'm interested in TO&Es from the turn of the last 
> century, say the 1905/Russo-Japanese War to 1918/Great War range.  This 
> implies large squad automatic weapons, clunky AFVs, and early combat aircraft.
>     Thank you.
>
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Larsen
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
>http://www.hotmail.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEHIGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

So did the Japanese fleet arm, so did the Soviets during the
early part of the war.

I think putting officers in charge of planes is mainly the cool
factor.  The person actually steering any navy ship is an EM
I believe, rather low of the totem pole too.  Larsen can correct
me if I'm wrong

OB TrAV
If you think about there is little difference between a Grav Tank and a
fighter at high enough TL's.  Does anyone seriously think it's just
officers driving all those grav tanks.

jml
______________________
Military -- Bangs for the Buck
Hunters  -- Bucks for the Bang
______________________
:
:
:

That being said, during WWII the Germans used enlisted pilots, as did the
RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying sergeants, since they thought
there was no reason to tie up perfectly good officers in what was
essentially a technical skill.  That died as carriers came to the fore, and
more Marines came to be stationed on ships. Many of the old Flying
Sergeants received reserve commissions as officers, while retaining their
permanent rank as enlisted men.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:36:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:36:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
References: <20020420004404.79A6F279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008201c1e814$658fd700$265d8690@computer>

> From: Michael Cessna
>   Pilots are officers because the military does not
> want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....

No.  The 'pilots are officers' thing dates all the way back to the
beginnings of military aviation.

The logic, presumably, was that a pilot was a gentleman and an educated
professional, of a higher social class to the mere tradesmen and mechanics
that worked on the ground.

There have been exceptions - "Flight Sergeants" occasionally served as
pilots in WWII.

Winston Churchill's comments on Naval Tradition apply to the traditions of
other services too, to a considerable extent.  Don't try to find present day
logic in them.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!

He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.

What I want to know is:
a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
Science?
b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?
c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:40:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:40:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <008301c1e814$662e8800$265d8690@computer>

> From: "Andy Brick"
> Do you really still generate worlds with just the basic rules ? Or do you
> use the World Builder's Handbook, or Book 6, or First In ?

Actually, I do just use the basic rules.  I also often hand tweak them, but
it's data from Book 3 that I am tweaking.

I also am in the process of developing my own world gen system.  It's
basically a simplified version of Book 3 that gives a narrower set of
results.  Of course, this is for a game that treats systems as essentially
synonymous with their major starports and startowns, plus a bit of tactical
space out to the 100D limit.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
References: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419223354.02274a00@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:01 PM 4/19/2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
>That being said, during WWII the Germans used enlisted pilots, as did the 
>RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying sergeants [...]

As did the U.S. Army Air Forces.  Among many others, there was a young 
mechanic named Chuck Yeager who volunteered for the USAAF version, and were 
also eventually commissioned (that Yeager fellow went on to break the 
"sound barrier" and eventually a Generals' star).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEHJGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Now that would be one Heck of a major
Imagine selling it to your faculty advisor 
(If I pull this off, you'll never have to 
worry about funding)
Imagine your senior project (take over an 
undistinguished Midwestern college)


jml
And then there is the sister school, 'ol Miskatonic U
(motto, where student pranks are the least of your problems)


> From: Douglas Berry
> No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!

He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.

What I want to know is:
a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
Science?
b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?
c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419224704.024bf070@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:34 PM 4/19/2002, Alan Bradley wrote:
>b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?

I believe Transylvania Polygnostic University (Trans-Poly U, motto: "Know 
Enough to be Afraid") offers undergraduate and graduate degrees in both.

>c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

I dunno, but Girl Genius is one heck of a comic book, if you're at all into 
Evil Medicine and Mad Science.  See: http://www.steamenginetime.com/


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F262jQlc7vtdFq7ImxU00001228@hotmail.com>

From: Charles McKnight <res0i3sf@verizon.net>

     Try searching for the term "table of organization and equipment"   
(include the surrounding quotes).


Mr. McKnight,

     Thanks for the tip.  As way of illustrating my dearth of research 
skills, I've been mindlessly typing "TO&E" into various search engines.  I 
never thought to actually SPELL the acronym out!  Did I mention that my head 
comes to a point?

     "Sorry for putting this on the web, but I can't contact you offlist 
without an email address.  :-)"

     Yet another example of typical Whipsnadian brain flatulence.  I ask the 
kind folk of the TML to contact me off-List and then neglect to provide the 
address.  Did I mention that my head comes to a point?
     Thanks again for your help.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <F55rVycmnh1OcA5ZWae0000d381@hotmail.com>

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>

     "I dunno, but Girl Genius is one heck of a comic book,..."



Mr. Wildstar,

     Perhaps the finest comic book series of the last half century is "Reid 
Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman".
     The seminal work gave us such lines as "I'm not bald, I get my hair cut 
this way." and "Seventy nine cents or I piss on your flowers."  Surely, the 
last alone puts "Fleming" in the canon of timeless Western literature.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <F55rVycmnh1OcA5ZWae0000d381@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:20:23AM +0000
References: <F55rVycmnh1OcA5ZWae0000d381@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020419212734.A1287@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:20:23AM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> 
>      Perhaps the finest comic book series of the last half century is "Reid 
> Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman".
>      The seminal work gave us such lines as "I'm not bald, I get my hair cut 
> this way." and "Seventy nine cents or I piss on your flowers."  Surely, the 
> last alone puts "Fleming" in the canon of timeless Western literature.

Now if I could only lay my hands on an issue.  Are they still in print?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In love, she who gives her portrait promises the original.  --Bruton 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204200336.EOZ00886@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>Subject: Re: [TML] Radioactivity Rules  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:20:23AM +0000, Larsen E. 
>Whipsnade wrote:
>> 
>>      Perhaps the finest comic book series of the last half 
>>century is "Reid 
>> Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman".
>>      The seminal work gave us such lines as "I'm not bald, 
>>I get my hair cut 
>> this way." and "Seventy nine cents or I piss on your 
>>flowers."  Surely, the 
>> last alone puts "Fleming" in the canon of timeless Western 
literature.
>
>Now if I could only lay my hands on an issue.  Are they 
still in print?
>
>-- 


I still like my Flaming Carrot.  It reminded me of me - but 
instead of comic books, it was reading and re-reading 
Traveller books and supplements continuously until I had 
brain damage.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:58:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:58:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Some Info...
In-Reply-To: <OF98BD72DE.DB3A42D5-ON85256B9F.005EA550@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEOAHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

William Lane wrote :
> do we have any Aeronautical Engineers on the list?

I'm primarily avionics, but I was cross-trained so I could be
ground crew for the RNZAF aerobatic team.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 23:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 19 22:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEOPHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> On 18 Apr 2002 at 6:46, Daniel Tackett wrote:
> The modern system has its origins in Medieval Europe,
> with knigh's evolving into the aristocratic officer
> class, etc.

Actually, it went the other way.
Peasants were given commissions from the crown so that they could
order around knights and other nobles, or so that lower ranking
nobles with better tactical capabilities could order around
higher-ranking nobles.

Commissions were actually a practical way of dealing with the
military problems involved in your military hierarchy being the
same as the hierarchy of your hereditary nobility.

> > I think it instills elitism in the wrong kind of
> > people and the wrong kind of people are less likely to
> > be patient enough for a couple of years as a grunt.
>
> That's also my feeling.

There is an extremely fine speech on leadership given by the then
commanding officer at Fort Sheridan, Major C.A. Bach,  who also
"came from the ranks" that is just as relevant today as when it
was given at the turn of the century. I'll see if I can dig out a
copy and post it, as while parts of it  are a little
anachronisitic, the core concepts, I believe, fit well with
Traveller's "Rule by men, not laws"

> > Not to say that we don't have some fine officers now,
> > but they still need to know what it's like to be
> > treated like a pawn in a chess game. I doubt this
> > ideology would work well for pilots though.
>
> Pilots are made into officers for reasons of tradition
> and there's no real reason for them to be, no matter
> what they might say on this.

It's not tradition. The Air Force (any air force) is too young to
have traditions. <grin>

Pilots in the New Zealand Air Force are currently, and have been
for the last twenty odd years or so, officers so that they can
order around grunt officers when they are on their aircraft (the
same reason that a Naval officer is always put in charge of any
ship carrying troops, even though you don't have to be an officer
to command a ship in the Navy), and also because we've got so few
of them that it would be difficult if one or two were enlisted
and the others weren't, as they wouldn't be able to (legally)
drink together.

The RNZAF had sergeant pilots druring World War II, and also
during the Malaysian 'adventure'.

In a larger air forces, including the U.K., the US, and the USSR,
and especially in combat wings, not all pilots are (or were)
officers. It's possible all UK pilots are now officers, seeing as
the UK has also been reducing it's spending, but there were
sergeant and warrant officer pilots in the R.A.F. definitely as
late as the fifities, and also in the US Army Air Corp in Vietnam
in the late sixties/early seventies, to mention examples where I
have personal knowledge.

However all pilots AFAIK have had rank of some sort, the lowest
I'm aware of is "corporal" pilots in Soviet Frontal Aviation.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 23:45:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 19 22:45:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020419212734.A1287@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOPHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

As I promised in another post here is the text of a speech on
leadership given by Major C.A. Bach
While parts of it are a little anachronistic, the core concepts,
I believe, fit well with Traveller.

Know Your Men, Your Business and Yourself
by Major C. A. Bach, US Army

In a short time each of you men will control the lives of a
certain number of other men. You will have in your charge loyal
but untrained citizens, who look to you for instruction and
guidance. Your word will be their law. Your most casual remark
will be remembered. Your mannerism will be aped. Your clothing,
your carriage, your vocabulary, your manner of command will be
imitated.

When you join your organization you will find there a willing
body of men who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that
will command their respect, their loyalty and their obedience.
They are perfectly ready and eager to follow you so long as you
can convince them that you have those qualities. When the time
comes that they are satisfied you do not possess them you might
as well kiss yourself goodbye. Your usefulness in that
organization is at an end.

From the standpoint of society, the world may be divided into
leaders and followers. The professions have their leaders, the
financial world has its leaders. We have religious leaders, and
political leaders, and society leaders. In all this leadership it
is difficult, if not impossible, to separate from the element of
pure leadership that selfish element of personal gain or
advantage to the individual, without which such leadership would
lose its value.

It is in the military service only, where men freely sacrifice
their lives for a faith, where men are willing to suffer and die
for the right or the prevention of a great wrong, that we can
hope to realise leadership in its most exalted and disinterested
sense. Therefore, when I say leadership, I mean military
leadership.

In a few days the great mass of you men will receive commissions
as officers. These commissions will not make you leaders; they
will merely make you officers. They will place you in a position
where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
attributes. But you must make good - not so much with the men
over you as with the men under you.

Men must and will follow into battle officers who are not
leaders, but the driving power behind these men is not enthusiasm
but discipline. They go with doubt and trembling, and with an
awful fear tugging at their heartstrings that prompts the
unspoken question, &#8220;What will he do next?&#8221;

Such men obey the letter of their orders but no more. Of devotion
to their commander, of exalted enthusiasm, which scorns personal
risk, of their self-sacrifice to ensure his personal safety, they
know nothing. Their legs carry them forward because their brain
and their training tell them they must go. Their spirit does not
go with them.
Great results are not achieved by cold, passive, unresponsive
soldiers. They don't go very far and they stop as soon as they
can. Leadership not only demands but receives the willing,
unhesitating, unfaltering obedience and loyalty of other men; and
a devotion that will cause them when the time comes to follow
their uncrowned king to bell and back again if necessary.

You will ask yourselves "Of just what, then, does leadership
consist? What must I do to become a leader? What are the
attributes of leadership and how can 1 cultivate them?"

Leadership is a composite of a number of qualities. Among the
most important I would list self-confidence, moral ascendancy,
self-sacrifice, paternalism, fairness, initiative, decision,
dignity, courage.

Let me discuss these with you in detail.

Self-confidence results, first, from exact knowledge, second, the
ability to impart that knowledge and, third, the feeling of
superiority over others that naturally follows. All these give
the officer poise.

To lead, you must know, you may bluff all your men some of the
time, but you can't do it all the time. Men will not have
confidence in an officer unless he knows his business, and he
must know it from the ground up.

The officer should know more about paperwork than his first
sergeant and company clerk put together, he should know more
about messing than his mess sergeant, more about diseases of the
horse than his troop farrier. He should be at least as good a
shot as any man in his company.

If the officer does not know, and demonstrates the fact that he
does not know, it is entirely human for the soldier to say to
himself, "To hell with him. He doesn't know as much about this as
I do", and calmly disregard the instruction received.

There is no substitute for accurate knowledge. Become so well
informed that men will hunt you up to ask questions - that your
brother officers will say to one another, "Ask Smith - he knows".

And not only should each officer know thoroughly the duties of
his own grade, but he should study those of the two grades next
above him. A two-fold benefit attaches to this. He prepares
himself for duties which may fall to his lot at any time during
battle; he further gains a broader viewpoint which enables him to
appreciate the necessity for the issuance of orders and join more
intelligently in their execution.

Not only must the officer know, but he must learn to stand on his
feet and speak without embarrassment.
1 am told that in British training camps student officers are
required to deliver ten-minute talks on any subject they may
choose. That is excellent practice. For to speak clearly one must
think clearly; and clear, logical thinking expresses itself in
definite, positive orders.

While self-confidence is the result of knowing more than your
men, moral ascendancy over them is based upon your belief that
you are the better man. To gain and maintain this ascendancy you
must have self-control, physical vitality and endurance and moral
force.

You must have yourself so well in hand that, even though in
battle you are scared stiff, you will never show fear. For if you
by so much as a hurried movement or a trembling of the hand, or a
change of expression, or a hasty order hastily revoked, indicate
your mental condition it will be reflected in your men in a far
greater degree.

In garrison or camp many instances will arise to try your temper
and wreck the sweetness of your disposition. If at such times you
&#8220;fly off the handle&#8221; you have no business to be in charge of men.
For men in anger say and do things that they almost invariably
regret afterwards.

An officer should never apologise to his men., also an officer
should never be guilty of an act for which his sense of justice
tells him he should apologise.

Another element in gaining moral ascendancy lies in the
possession of enough physical vitality and endurance to withstand
the hardships to which you and your men are subjected, and a
dauntless spirit that enables you not only to accept them
cheerfully but to minimise their magnitude.

Make light of your troubles, belittle your trials, and you will
help vitally to build up within your organization an esprit whose
value in time of stress cannot be measured.

Moral force is the third element in gaining moral ascendancy. To
exert moral force you must live clean, you must have sufficient
brain power to see the right and the will to do right.

Be an example to your men. An officer can be a power for good or
power for evil. Don&#8217;t preach to them - that will be worse than
useless. Live the kind of life you would have them lead, and you
will be surprised to see the number that will imitate you.

A loud-mouthed, profane captain who is careless of his personal
appearance will have a loud mouthed, profane, dirty company.
Remember what I tell you. Your company will be the reflection of
yourself. If you have a rotten company it will be because you are
a rotten captain.

Self sacrifice is essential to leadership. You will give, give
all the time. You will give of yourself physically, for the
longest hours, the hardest work and the greatest responsibility
is the lot of the captain. He is the first man up in the morning
and the last man in at night. He works while others sleep.

You will give of yourself mentally, in sympathy and appreciation
for the troubles of men in your charge. This one&#8217;s mother has
died, and that one has lost all his savings in a bank failure.
They may desire help, but more than anything else they desire
sympathy.

Don&#8217;t make the mistake of turning such men down with the
statement that you have troubles of your own, for every time that
you do you knock a stone out of the foundation of your house.
Your men are your foundation, and your house leadership will
tumble about your ears unless it rests securely upon them.

Finally, you will give of your own slender financial resources.
You will frequently spend your money to conserve the health or
well being of your men or to assist them when in trouble.
Generally you get your money back. Very infrequently you must
charge it to profit and loss.

When I say that paternalism is essential to leadership I use the
term in its better sense. I do not now refer to that form of
paternalism which robs men of initiative, self-reliance, and
self- respect. I refer to the paternalism that manifests itself
in a watchful care for the comfort and welfare of those in your
charge.

Soldiers are much like children. You must see that they have
shelter, food, and clothing, the best that your utmost efforts
can provide. You must be far more solicitous of their comfort
than of your own. You must see that they have food to eat before
you think of your own, that they have each as good a bed as can
be provided before you consider where you will sleep. You must
look after their health. You must conserve their strength by not
demanding needless exertion or useless labour.

And by doing all these things you are breathing life into what
would be otherwise a mere machine. You are creating a soul in
your organization that will make the mass respond to you as
though it were one man. And that is esprit.

And when your organization has this esprit you will wake up some
morning and discover that the tables have been turned; that
instead of your constantly looking out for them they have,
without even a hint from you, taken up the task of looking out
for you. You will find that a detail is always there to see that
your tent, if you have one, is promptly pitched, that the most
and the cleanest bedding is brought to your tent; that from some
mysterious source two eggs have been added to your supper when no
one else has any, that an extra man is helping your men give your
horse a super grooming, that your wishes are anticipated, that
every man is Johnny-on-the-spot. And then you have arrived.

Fairness is another element without which leadership can neither
be built up nor maintained. There must be first that fairness
which treats all men justly. I do not say alike, for you cannot
treat all men alike - that would be assuming that all men are cut
from the same piece; that there is no such thing as individuality
or a personal equation.

You cannot treat all men alike; a punishment that would be
dismissed by one man with a shrug of the shoulders is mental
anguish for another. A company commander, who for a given offence
has a standard punishment that applies to all is either too
indolent or too stupid to study the personality of his men. In
his case justice is certainly blind.

Study your men as carefully as a surgeon studied a difficult
case. And when you are sure of your diagnosis apply the remedy.
And remember that you apply the remedy to effect a cure, not
merely to see the victim squirm. It may be necessary cut deep,
but when you are satisfied as to your diagnosis don&#8217;t be divided
from your purpose by any false sympathy for the patient.

Hand in band with fairness in awarding punishment walks fairness
in giving credit. Everybody hates a human hog.
When one of your men has accomplished an especially creditable
piece of work, see that he gets the proper reward. Turn heaven
and earth upside down to get it for him. Don&#8217;t try to take it
away from him and hog it for yourself. You may do this and get
away with it, but you have lost the respect and loyalty of your
men. Sooner or later your brother officers will hear of it and
shun you like a leper. In war there is glory enough for all. Give
the man under you his due. The man who always takes and never
gives is not a leader. He is a parasite.

There is another kind of fairness - that which will prevent an
officer from abusing the privileges of his rank - when you exact
respect from soldiers be sure you treat them with equal respect.
Build up their manhood and self-respect - don&#8217;t try to pull it
down.

For an officer to be overbearing and insulting in the treatment
of enlisted men is the act of a coward. He ties the man to a tree
with the rope of discipline and then strikes him in the face,
knowing full well that the man cannot strike back.

Consideration, courtesy, and respect from officers towards
enlisted men are not incompatible with discipline. They are parts
of our discipline. Without initiative and decision no man can
expect to lead.

In manoeuvres you will frequently see, when an emergency arises,
certain men calmly give instant orders which later, on analysis,
prove to be, if not exactly the right thing, very nearly the
right thing to have done. You will see other men in emergency
become badly rattled; their brains refuse to work, or they give a
hasty order, revoke it; give another, revoke that; in short, show
every indication of being in a blue funk.

Regarding the first man you may say &#8220;That man is a genius. He
hasn&#8217;t had time to reason this thing out. He acts intuitively&#8221;.

Forget it.

&#8220;Genius is merely the capacity for taking infinite pains&#8221;.

The man who was ready is the man who has prepared himself. He has
studied beforehand the possible situation that might arise, he
has made tentative plans covering such situations. When he is
confronted by the emergency he is ready to meet it.

He must have sufficient mental alertness to appreciate the
problem that confronts him and the power of quick reasoning to
determine what changes are necessary in his already formulated
plan. He must have also the decision to order the execution and
stick to his orders.

Any reasonable order in an emergency is better than no order. The
situation is there. Meet it. It is better to do something and do
the wrong thing than to hesitate, hunt around for the right thing
to do and wind up by doing nothing at all. And, having decided on
a line of action, stick to it. Don&#8217;t vacillate. Men have no
confidence in an officer who doesn't&#8217;t know his own mind.

Occasionally you will be called upon to meet a situation which no
reasonable human being could anticipate. If you have prepared
yourself to meet other emergencies which you could anticipate the
mental training you have thereby gained will enable you to act
promptly and with calmness.

You must frequently act without orders from higher authority.
Time will not permit you to wait for them. Here again enters the
importance of studying the work of officers above you. If you
have a comprehensive grasp of the entire situation and can form
an idea of the general plan of your superiors, that and your
previous emergency training will enable you to determine that the
responsibility is yours and to issue the necessary orders without
delay.

The element of personal dignity is important in military
leadership. Be the friend of your men, but do not become their
intimate. Your men should stand in awe of you - not fear. If your
men presume to become familiar it is your fault, not theirs. Your
actions have encouraged them to do so.

And, above all things, don&#8217;t cheapen yourself by courting their
friendship or currying their favour. They will despise you for
it. If you are worthy of their loyalty and respect and devotion
they will surely give all these without asking. If you are not,
nothing that you can do will win them.

And then I would mention courage. Moral courage you need as well
as physical courage- that kind of moral courage which enables you
to adhere without faltering to a determined course of action
which your judgement has indicated as the one best suited to
secure the desired results.

Every time you change your orders without obvious reason you
weaken your authority and impair the confidence of your men. Have
the moral courage to stand by your order and see it through.

Moral courage further demands that you assume the responsibility
for your own acts. If your subordinates have loyally carried out
your orders and the movement you directed is a failure, the
failure is yours, not theirs. Yours would have been the honour
had it been successful. Take the blame if it results in disaster.
Don&#8217;t try to shift it to a subordinate and make him the goat.
That is a cowardly act.

Furthermore you will need moral courage to determine the fate of
those under you. You will frequently be called upon for
recommendations for the promotion or demotion of officers and
non-commissioned officers in your immediate command.

Keep clearly in mind your personal integrity and the duty you owe
your country. Do not let yourself be deflected from a strict
sense of justice by feelings of personal friendship. If your own
brother is your second lieutenant, and you find him unfit to hold
his commission, eliminate him. If you don&#8217;t, your lack of moral
courage may result in the loss of valuable lives.

If, on the other hand, you are called upon for a recommendation
concerning a man whom, for personal reasons you thoroughly
dislike, do not fail to do him full justice. Remember that your
aim is the general good, not the satisfaction of an individual
grudge.

I am taking it for granted that you have physical courage. I need
not tell you how necessary that is. Courage is more than bravery.
Bravery is fearlessness - the absence of fear. The nearest dolt
may be brave, because he lacks the mentality to appreciate his
danger; he does&#8217;t know enough to be afraid.

Courage, however, is that firmness of spirit, that moral
backbone, which, while fully appreciating the danger involved,
nevertheless goes on with the undertaking. Bravery is physical;
courage is mental and moral. You may be cold all over, your hands
may tremble; your legs may quake; your knees be ready to give
way - that is fear. If, nevertheless, you go forward; if in spite
of this physical defection you continue to lead your men against
the enemy, you have courage.

All physical manifestations of fear will pass away. You may never
experience them but once. They are the &#8220;buck fever&#8221; of the hunter
who tries to shoot his first deer. You must not give way to them.

A number of years ago, while taking a course in demolitions, the
class of which I was a member was handling dynamite. The
instructor said regarding its manipulation &#8220;I must caution you
gentlemen to be careful in the use of these explosives. One man
has but one accident.&#8221; And so I would caution you. If you give
way to the fear that will doubtless beset you in your first
action, if you show the white feather, if you let your men go
forward while you hunt a shell crater, you will never again have
the opportunity of leading those men.

Use judgement in calling on your men for display of physical
courage or bravery. Don&#8217;t ask any man to go where you would not
go yourself. If your common sense tells you that the place is too
dangerous for you to venture into; then it is too dangerous for
him. You know his life is as valuable to him as yours is to you.

Occasionally some of your men must be exposed to danger which you
cannot share. A message must be taken across a fire-swept zone.
You call for volunteers. If your men know you and know that you
are &#8216;right&#8217; you will never lack volunteers, for they will know
your heart is in your work, that you are giving your country the
best you have; that you would willingly carry the message
yourself if you could. Your example and enthusiasm will have
inspired them.

And lastly, if you aspire to leadership, I would urge you to
study men. Get under their skins and find out what is inside.
Some men are quite different from what they appear to be on the
surface. Determine the workings of their minds.

Much of General Robert E. Lee&#8217;s success as a leader may be
ascribed to his ability as a psychologist. He knew most of his
opponents from West Point days, knew the workings of their minds,
and he believed that they would do certain things under certain
circumstances. In nearly every case he was able to anticipate
their movements and block the execution.

You do not know your opponent in this war in the same way. But
you can know your own men. You can study each to determine
wherein lies his strength and his weakness; which man can be
relied upon to the last gasp and which cannot.

~~~~~~~

The document I have ends here, though it looks like perhaps there
should be a little more to it.

A note attached to the copy I have reads :
"C. A. Bach enlisted in the Thirteenth Minnesota Infantry of the
National Guard and served as a sergeant with the regiment in the
Philippines. Promoted to a Lieutenancy in the Thirty-sixth US
volunteer Infantry, he transferred in the Regular Establishment
as a first lieutenant in the Seventh Cavalry and advanced therein
to his majority.

His analysis of how to be a leader &#8211; an address delivered to the
graduating officers of the Second Training Camp at Fort
Sheridan - so moved the Reserve officers of his battalion, that
they besieged him for copies. The Waco (Texas) &#8216;Daily Times
Herald&#8217;, learning of the great interest the speech had aroused,
obtained a copy and printed it verbatim in January 1918.

A copy of the speech was inserted in the Congressional Record by
Senator Henrik Shipstead of Minnesota in November 1942, and
printed as Congressional Document 289. All of us who were NROTC
students at the University of Washington in 1943 were given
copies and, since the document is no longer in print, may I urge
you to reprint, in its entirety, what is generally regarded as
the best composition on &#8216;Leadership&#8217; ever recorded?&#8221;

I received this document from a Warrant Officer with whom I
served, W.O Brian Reid, one who also ended up getting a
commission as a Squadron Leader, and became the T.O of RNZAF base
Wigram shortly before it was closed for flying duties.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 00:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 23:21:03 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420000950.04392b20@rollanet.org>

>
>
>That's why I've always found emphasis on democracy to be more than a
>little foolish.  Certainly, it appears that democracy has the best
>chance of ensuring liberty--but it is just as capable of ensuring
>tyranny.  I don't care who rules or how, so long as I am free.  If a
>king, an emperor or the Great Purple Poobah of Penglesh ensures my
>liberties, I'll quite happily be a subject.

"In contradiction," answered signor Ottaviano, "I will deploy just one 
argument, namely, that there only three forms of sound government: 
monarchy, the rule of the good (in the ancient world called the optimates) 
and government by the citizens. And the degenerate and lawless forms taken 
by these systems when they are ruined and corrupted are, in place of 
monarchy, tyranny, in place of the best, government by a few powerful men, 
and in place of the citizens, government by the common people, which wrecks 
the constitution and surrenders complete power to the control of the multitude.

--excerpt from The Book of the Courtier (1528) by Baldesar Castiglione
translated 1967 by George Bull

It's an old debate.


--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 00:23:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 23:23:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <B8E5C044.577B2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420003838.0435ca70@rollanet.org>

At 02:38 PM 4/19/02, you wrote:
>on 4/19/02 12:32 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> > or no reason for them to be grunts first?
> >
>
>The Air Force doesn't have 'grunts'.  Didn't you know that?  They have
>technicians (Excepting Para Rescue and a few other oddballs who'd probably
>be happier in the Army or Marines. :)
>
>--

They do have those base security teams that get a whopping whole two weeks 
of ground combat training. I've even heard that during some part of those 
two weeks the trainees actually sleep in real tents on the ground.


------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com

Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.

--John Ciardi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 03:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 20 02:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020420004404.79A6F279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16yrdg-0001rp-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

"Samuel Weiss" <samwise1@msn.com> wrote:

> Don't forge the influence of Rand on Libertarianism.
> And of course, don't forget that the current Libertarian party
> leadership fully believes in guilt by association. Consider the habits of Rand
>  and the later writings of Heinlein and then consider what they say about
> Libertarians.
 
I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and 
that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually 
fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine 
sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas 
all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.

Libertarianism is in itself an oddly changeable term.  It was 
originated in (IIRC) the first few decades of the 20th century (maybe 
the 1920s) as a name fo Anarchists that avoided the negative label.

By the 1960s and early 1970s is was a (by modern standards) 
fairly leftist organization that promoted ideas like legalized drugs 
and Milton Freidman's proposal for a negative income tax (a brilliant 
proposal that was deemed by the then libertarians to be both fair 
and as an excellent method for eliminating poverty).  In the late 
1970s and early 1980s the libertarian movement was transformed 
into an organization that had far more of a focus on cutting taxes 
and preserving private property rights at all costs, in essence it 
went from primarily promoting social changes to promoting 
economic ones.  Having talked to some older (and rather bitter 
libertarians, it seems clear that at least part of the change in the 
movement came from outsiders co-opting the party (although some 
of the change was also internal).  

ObTrav, in several hundred years it would be interesting to note 
how various organizations have changed. A Feudal Technocracy 
could easily go from being a technocratic meritocracy to being a 
static and rigid system of technological oriented castes and still 
maintain the same designation.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  

  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 06:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat Apr 20 05:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16yrdg-0001rp-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <003801c1e868$a68e21e0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of
sneadj@mindspring.com
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 02:58
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism


Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
eliminate poverty?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 08:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 20 07:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b@aol.com>

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> I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and 
> that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually 
> fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine 
> sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas 
> all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.

Heinlein was, by all accounts, a minarchist - he believed that
government was a necessary evil. Insofar as you can discover his
political stance from his writings he wasn't an anarchist at all (and
he *certainly* wasn't a fascist :-/). I think his political views were
built out of faith in the soldier's virtues, along with nostalgia for the
kind of Western-frontier society that was already dying out when
he was born.

Rand was actually not a libertarian, and held libertarians in disdain.
Mostly because the people using the label at the time were much
into legalizing narcotics, as you point out. I suppose you could
also call her a minarchist, although to be sure she arrived at that
position through some of the strangest ethical notions I've ever
come across. She did have one or two useful insights, but for the
most part she strikes me as the last and most vocal advocate for
Social Darwinism.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and 
<BR>&gt; that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually 
<BR>&gt; fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine 
<BR>&gt; sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas 
<BR>&gt; all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.
<BR>
<BR>Heinlein was, by all accounts, a minarchist - he believed that
<BR>government was a necessary evil. Insofar as you can discover his
<BR>political stance from his writings he wasn't an anarchist at all (and
<BR>he *certainly* wasn't a fascist :-/). I think his political views were
<BR>built out of faith in the soldier's virtues, along with nostalgia for the
<BR>kind of Western-frontier society that was already dying out when
<BR>he was born.
<BR>
<BR>Rand was actually not a libertarian, and held libertarians in disdain.
<BR>Mostly because the people using the label at the time were much
<BR>into legalizing narcotics, as you point out. I suppose you could
<BR>also call her a minarchist, although to be sure she arrived at that
<BR>position through some of the strangest ethical notions I've ever
<BR>come across. She did have one or two useful insights, but for the
<BR>most part she strikes me as the last and most vocal advocate for
<BR>Social Darwinism.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 08:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 20 07:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
Message-ID: <200204201431.EPV00623@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Frank Pitt
<snip long post>

The most important quality I saw that was necessary and often 
missing in officers was the ability to properly delegate.

This bit of advice comes down through history in the form of 
the world's first recorded advice from a father-in-law, from 
Jethro, to his son-in-law Moses.

If you can't delegate, you can't lead.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 09:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Apr 20 08:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freelance Traveller is now Fan Site of the Week at RPGNews!
Message-ID: <o913cukv513imfb9up0a45fmfejbbava7u@4ax.com>

I just checked the site (http://www.rpgnews.rpghost.com/fansite.php) and
Freelance Traveller is the featured site right now!

:)

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 10:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 20 09:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEHJGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420084435.009e89f0@mindspring.com>

At 07:40 PM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > From: Douglas Berry
> > No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!
>
>He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
>superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.
>
>What I want to know is:
>a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
>Science?

Mad Science, I'd say.. he seemed to be more the engineer type.

>b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?

Illuminati Univeristy.

>c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

Fnord.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 11:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sat Apr 20 10:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420003838.0435ca70@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <20020420171222.30654.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

> >
> >The Air Force doesn't have 'grunts'.  Didn't you
> know that? 
 Yes, I was using the term loosely in reference to
enlisted personnel.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 11:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Apr 20 10:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204201736.g3KHaCP25223@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 00:08:07 +1200
>Subject: Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
...
>>   I'm almost of the opinion that officers 
>> > > should be enlisted first
>> Amen to that. Was it ever like that though?
>
>Not that I know of. 

  Arguably this applied in certain periods of 
Roman history, and perhaps in some other classical
armies (where maybe only members of the right
classes might act as commanders, but far from all
of those eligible would fight except as ordinary
soldiers).

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 12:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Apr 20 11:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>
References: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3cc06819.475761@post.demon.co.uk>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:

>     Specifically, I'm interested in TO&Es from the turn of the last=20
>century, say the 1905/Russo-Japanese War to 1918/Great War range.  This=20
>implies large squad automatic weapons, clunky AFVs, and early combat=20
>aircraft.

No on-line sources, I'm afraid, but my copy of the World War One
Sourcebook ISBN 1-85409-351-7 has lots of the information you're
looking for.  As an example, this is the TO&E of a British Infantry
division in 1918:

Three infantry brigades, each comprising three battalions and a trench
mortar battery. (so 9 infantry battalions and 3 mortar batteries
total).

The platoon was the basic manoeuvre unit.  It was divided into 4
sections (with 6-10 people each) plus a light machine gun section
(Lewis guns) and headquarters section (officer, NCO, 2 runners).  One
of the infantry sections was made up of specially-trained bombers
(grenadiers).

=46our platoons plus a headquarters unit made up a rifle company.

=46our companies plus an HQ unit made up a battalion.  Earlier in the
war the battalion HQ unit included a heavy machine gun section
(Vickers); these guns were later withdrawn and concentrated at
divisional level.  A battalion was nominally 977 rifles, 36 Lewis
guns.

It was standard practice for a battalion to leave behind a cadre of
troops before going into action (the "battle surplus") so the unit
could be rebuilt if it suffered major losses.

Three battallions made up an infantry brigade.  By 1918, a brigade
also included a trench mortar battery (eight 3" mortars each).

Three brigades made up a division.  (ie, 9 infantry battalions).

The division also included the following support elements:

Artillery: Two artillery brigades, with a total of six field batteries
(six 18-pounder guns each) and two howitzer batteries (six 4.5"
howitzers each).
(Earlier in the war divisions had more artillery, this was later
concentrated at corps and army level).

Two batteries (six 2" mortars each) of trench mortars.
One battalion (4 companies) of heavy machine guns. (each company with
16 Vickers guns, 64 total)

Three companies of engineers. (each with 217 men, 18 vehicles, 33
bicycles and a pontoon)
One battalion of pioneers.

Staff, signals company, three field hospitals, 21 motor ambulances,
veterinary section, employment company, divisional train (four
companies), ammunition column.
A division had 822 vehicles including 44 motorcycles and 11 motor
cars.  And, presumably, lots of horses.

Divisions were organised into corps, usually of two divisions.  Four
or five corps made up an army.

Tanks were organised into brigades, each of two battalions.  A
battalion (36 tanks) was made up of three companies, each divided into
three 4-tank sections.  Each company also had a "spare section" of 4
tanks in reserve.

Aircraft were attached at corps or army level for reconnaissance and
artillery spotting duties.


Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 12:31:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 20 11:31:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <200204201431.EPV00623@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E701D4.5797E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/20/02 7:31 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> The most important quality I saw that was necessary and often
> missing in officers was the ability to properly delegate.
> 

A problem not restricted to them either.  I sometimes wonder if the
anti-officer bias here comes from the fact that most of the prior service
were enlisted.  I've seen it from both sides.  I've seen my share of idiot
NCOs and some highly stracked Officers.  And the reverse.  I personally
don't see any great advantage in officers having served as enlisted first.

I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me with a special
insight when I had my own platoon.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 13:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat Apr 20 12:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] travlib 0.6.2
Message-ID: <20020420130659.A28851@4dv.net>

This is a message for the programmers on the list.  If you're not a
programmer, I doubt that this will be of much interest to you.

Well, once again it's time to announce another subminor release of
travlib.  This release is in many ways an aesthetic release, as
attractive code is invariably better than ugly code.  Indeed, the
corrections were inspired by mass lossage in certain parts of what I
had written.  The code base has been shrunk to 10,504 LOC, down from,
IIRC some 12-15 KLOC.  A smaller code base is a more maintainable code
base.

The most visible two correction are the regularising of both
constructor return types and the manner in which children of an object
are accessed.  As for the first, every _new() now returns a
TravMapobject*.  This is much more like the standard gtk+ way of doing
things than before, and is considerably simpler from a user
perspective.

Regarding the second, the correct way to access the children of an
object is to call trav_mapobject_get_children(),
trav_mapobject_set_children(), trav_mapobject_add_child() and
trav_mapobject_remove_child().  No more messing with
trav_galaxy_get_sectors(), trav_sector_add_subsector(),
trav_planet_set_moons() &c.  These are all logically related
activities, and it makes sense that a single suite of functions be
used.  I am going to add trav_mapobject_add_children() and
trav_mapobject_remove_children() eventually.

A side effect of this is that the children of e.g. a star are its
planets and its companion stars, and that the children of a planet are
its governments and moons.  The user can either call
trav_mapobject_get_children() and filter them on his own, or call the
appropriate class-level function.  In these cases they'd be,
respectively, trav_non_dwarf_star_get_planets(),
trav_star_get_companions(), trav_planetary_object_get_governments()
and trav_planet_get_moons().  Note that not all of these have been
written.

There has also been some slight progress with the Scheme GURPS
Traveller: First In object generation.  Nothing major yet, as
travtrack really needs to be in a more advanced state for generation
to be testable/usable &c.

On the travtrack front, I am busily working away on the galaxy and
sector browsers.  I've created a GenericBrowser base class which is
working pretty decently so far, and is much better than my old ad hoc
nonsense.  These changes are all in CVS; they've yet to be released.

The website, as ever, is <http://travtrack.sf.net/>.  If you just wish
to download files, I'd suggest <http://sf.net/projects/travtrack/>.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe
what you just said.                           --William F. Buckley, Jr.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 13:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Apr 20 12:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
References: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8e76dfb3ac3@[198.123.22.170]>

At 12:34 PM +1000 4/20/02, Alan Bradley wrote:
>  > From: Douglas Berry
>>  No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!
>
>He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
>superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.
>
>What I want to know is:
>a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
>Science?
>b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?

Illuminati University of course....

>c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

If you have to ask, you wouldn't survive....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Apr 20 13:11:02 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420000950.04392b20@rollanet.org>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420000950.04392b20@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <3cc1ca9e.6194791@post.demon.co.uk>

Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org> writes:

>--excerpt from The Book of the Courtier (1528) by Baldesar Castiglione
>translated 1967 by George Bull
>
>It's an old debate.

Even older than that, since Castiglione was simply paraphrasing
Aristotle's 'Politics' written in about 340 BC...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 14:13:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 20 13:13:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
Message-ID: <200204202010.EQF02707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>
>I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me 
>with a special insight when I had my own platoon.
>

I think it's better to find out that someone can't delegate 
when they're an NCO (or even a corporal) rather then after we 
waste the money to make them an officer.

Of course, I don't believe that leadership can be "taught".  
Talent in this area can be nurtured, grown, and refined, but 
never "taught".  If you can't lead or delegate to begin with, 
no amount of training is going to make a difference.

One other area of "talent" that isn't easily remedied by 
training - tactical ability, and an ability to implement that 
tactical brilliance in your platoon. All platoon drills 
aside -- can you and your men really fight?  I remember 
watching platoons turning into indecisive, sleep-deprived 
zombies because no one in the chain of command, officer or 
nco, could get it all together.  There's nothing more 
unnerving to me than watching a platoon in training mill 
around in my scope when a few of them are hit with MILES 
gear.  Watching the men peep their heads in and out of the 
woodline like idiots.  Officers and NCOs scratching their 
heads and having a committee meeting to decide what to do.  I 
even remember a fat platoon sergeant ambling out into the 
open, looking up and down the danger space, trying to figure 
out where I was.

Not all platoons were this bad, thank God.  But there were 
some like that.  And I put the blame not only on the LT, but 
on the NCOs in the platoon.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 16:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 20 15:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
Message-ID: <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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   Hi,
   Looking for alien stats for Traveller (CT/MT) the other day on the WWWeb, 
I ran across a pretty extensive (and frankly, kind of frightening as well) 
list of Traveller-related aliens, and was wondering if folks might be able to 
help me out with stats for several species that looked pretty interesting. 
   Adduxar: Carnivorous reptilians from the Zhodani book.
   Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.
   Brinn: Spider/Crablike mix from TravDigest 12.
   Ebokin: An Octopoid from The Traveller Adventure.
   Sambiqys: Red-zoned Androids from JTAS 24.
   Murians: Stocky and hirsuite from Vanguard Reaches.

   Now I'm not looking for a huge writeup or career tables or anything like 
that; merely the information on rolling up the creature's stats (+any natural 
armor or natural weapons)
   Thanks in advance :)
   Boy, if BITS or someone knocked out a 101 Aliens that'd be compatible with 
CT/MT, I know I'D sure buy it  :)

  -Ken Murphy-
   

--part1_155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Looking for alien stats for Traveller (CT/MT) the other day on the WWWeb, I ran across a pretty extensive (and frankly, kind of frightening as well) list of Traveller-related aliens, and was wondering if folks might be able to help me out with stats for several species that looked pretty interesting. 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Adduxar: Carnivorous reptilians from the Zhodani book.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Brinn: Spider/Crablike mix from TravDigest 12.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Ebokin: An Octopoid from The Traveller Adventure.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Sambiqys: Red-zoned Androids from JTAS 24.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Murians: Stocky and hirsuite from Vanguard Reaches.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Now I'm not looking for a huge writeup or career tables or anything like that; merely the information on rolling up the creature's stats (+any natural armor or natural weapons)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks in advance :)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Boy, if BITS or someone knocked out a 101 Aliens that'd be compatible with CT/MT, I know I'D sure buy it &nbsp;:)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 18:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat Apr 20 17:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>

This from the JTAS Online article:

Jgd in Play
Jgd should only be played and handled as NPCs; in the unlikely event of any
PC interacting with one on a personal, violent level, a typical specimen has
ST 12, DX 10, IQ 12, and HT 12/25. Their tough outer integument gives them
PD 2 and DR 5, and they can have a Move and Dodge of about 4. Their internal
gas-bags make them highly vulnerable to penetrating attacks under some
circumstances, but their internal structures are complex and robust; they
never simply "burst."

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of MurfNMurf@aol.com


  Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.

  Now I'm not looking for a huge writeup or career tables or anything like
that; merely the information on rolling up the creature's stats (+any
natural armor or natural weapons)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 18:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 20 17:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] living space
Message-ID: <200204210036.EQN01344@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Just comparing a recent ship design of mine to a current 
nuclear submarine.

It looks like a modern nuclear submarine allocates far, far 
less living space that we allocate in Traveller.  In what 
appears to be the same length of hull (length of living 
quarters space), with a known beam (10 meters in the case of 
the sub, 20 meters in the case of the Traveller ship).

In roughly 176 Traveller displacement tons, the sub has over 
129 crew.  And this is being generous: part of this space is 
taken up by bridge and torpedo tubes.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 18:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr 20 17:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net>

Swordy wrote:
> Jgd should only be played and handled as NPCs;

<rant>
What?  Why should *any* character be restricted to "GM only"?  Yes, I
do include the Emperor here, having played in a campaign which had PCs
of about the same level of power.  This seems to make rather gross
assumptions about what sort of games people are playing.  I suppose
the article didn't bother to give much in the way of game information
for this race, on the pretext that "players won't ever need it".

This is one of my particular peeves: an artificial division of
characters or character types into "PC" and "NPC" is bad enough in a
lot of roleplaying games, but assigning whole *races* to "NPC only" is
just really too much.
</rant>

What unusual type of characters have other players run?

I remember having a lot of fun playing a non-sentient ship's computer
through one adventure.  It was very highly complex, and a source of
surprise to some of the other characters, but didn't have a sense of
"self" at all.

In a fantasy game, I once played a short-lived spirit for a few hours,
while my other involved character was unconscious and dying.  It was
then woven into a spell cast by one of the other characters -- in fact
the very spell that restored my original character to health.

I designed a hive-mind character for another game, an agglomeration of
dozens of individually subsentient creatures about the size of a rat,
but the GM moved away just before that game started.


So as you can imagine, an admonition that "Thou Shalt Not Play Jgd
Characters" isn't likely to sit well with me at all.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 19:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Sat Apr 20 18:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freelance Traveller is now Fan Site of the Week at RPGNews!
In-Reply-To: <o913cukv513imfb9up0a45fmfejbbava7u@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3CC1E030.30576.5FA9886@localhost>

Congrats!

Rob

On 20 Apr 2002 at 11:13, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> I just checked the site (http://www.rpgnews.rpghost.com/fansite.php) and
> Freelance Traveller is the featured site right now!
> 
> :)
> 
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

--
Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
 Spero nos familiares mansuros.
 I hope we'll still be friends.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 21:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Apr 20 20:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 21 Apr 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <jga4cuscmeas4pgo3jqh9sm37lpbf0dttu@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - A day or thereabouts after we posted the last update, we spotted that a
   whole bunch of stuff showed up corrupted - nothing fatal, but not a
   happy-making state of affairs. It's taken most of the past two weeks to
   find and fix the problems. We know how it happened; complaints have been
   made to the appropriate quarters. Apologies for any problems or
   awkwardnesses encountered because of this. 

 - Michl Hughes brings us a quick and easy method for creating TNS news
   items. You can read about it in Doing It My Way. 

 - Freelance Traveller has been selected as the RPGNews.com Fan Site of the
   Week. We're massively flattered - but it's you, the people who have
   supported our continuing efforts, that are deserving of accolades;
   without you, we wouldn't have survived. (We looked at RPGNews.com and
   are very impressed - if you're interested in multiple systems and
   settings, not just Traveller, this is a good place to start!) 

 - Michl Hughes also profiles Calypso McArthur, an ex-freedom fighter now
   scouting or the Imperium. You can meet McArthur in Up Close and
   Personal. 

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the (working!) feedback form at
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/infocenter/feedbackform.html.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to visit our site
and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our existence
possible.




Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 22:03:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 20 21:03:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>

At 11:50 AM 4/21/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Swordy wrote:
> > Jgd should only be played and handled as NPCs;
>
><rant>
>What?  Why should *any* character be restricted to "GM only"?


Because in this case the Jgd exist only in gas giant atmospheres, are 
completely unfathomable to humans, and have no real motivations that humans 
can figure out.

Playing a group of 10 meter spheres that die quickly on most Imperial 
worlds and are allergic to jump would be a bit boring.

Any it says "should," not "must."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com> <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com> <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020421150430.A6895@freeman.little-possums.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Because in this case the Jgd exist only in gas giant atmospheres,
> are completely unfathomable to humans, and have no real motivations
> that humans can figure out.

Sounds not too much unlike some people I've known :)

But seriously, I don't see anything there that makes them more
suitable as NPC material than as PC.


> Playing a group of 10 meter spheres that die quickly on most
> Imperial worlds and are allergic to jump would be a bit boring.

Doesn't sound too bad to me.  Besides, if they're suitable as an NPC
race, why aren't they suitable as PCs?  If they're boring for players
to run, presumably they're just as boring for the GM.  If they're
incomprehensible for players, they're just as incomprehensible for the
GM.


> Any it says "should," not "must."

True, although the distinction is rather slight in modern English.
Both express an obligation in that context, and usually a *moral*
obligation.  I deny that any such obligation applies.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:08:04 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006601c1e8f2$fae49aa0$1db18b90@computer>

Forwarded by: Richard Wilson
> "In contradiction," answered signor Ottaviano, "I will deploy just one
> argument, namely, that there only three forms of sound government:
> monarchy, the rule of the good (in the ancient world called the optimates)
> and government by the citizens. And the degenerate and lawless forms taken
> by these systems when they are ruined and corrupted are, in place of
> monarchy, tyranny, in place of the best, government by a few powerful men,
> and in place of the citizens, government by the common people, which
> wrecks the constitution and surrenders complete power to the control of
> the multitude.

The three 'sound' forms listed are:
monarchy
narrow oligarchy (aristocracy, I guess)
broad oligarchy

The 'degenerate and lawless' forms are:
tyranny
narrow oligarchy(!)
democracy

There isn't really much to say here.  Signor Ottaviano clearly believes
oligarchy is superior to democracy, and who are we to argue?

Tyranny is a much-maligned form of government, I might add.  In real terms,
it's simply an "illegitimate" form of monarchy.  It got its bad name due to
the fact that it usually involved aristocratic factions repressing and
driving out their rivals.  Worse, sometimes the tyrants would seek support
amongst the common rabble, rather than amongst the good, the wise and the
pious.  You know, some of these evil b*st*rds actually tried to engage in
land reform?  The worst of them were in Sparta, where they tried to extend
the franchise!  Imagine that - all those centuries of Spartan discipline
being watered down, just because some brainiac thinks that it's a bad thing
that Sparta can't actually put an effective army in the field any more!

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:10:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>

> From: Stephen Tempest
> Three battallions made up an infantry brigade.  By 1918, a brigade
> also included a trench mortar battery (eight 3" mortars each).
>
> Three brigades made up a division.  (ie, 9 infantry battalions).

The Australian army in WWI used four battalion infantry brigades.  Cavalry
brigades were three regiments (battalions) per brigade.  I'm pretty sure
this was British practice, too.  It's possible that things might have
changed in the British army by 1918 though.  The site below is interesting,
although not detailed past the battalion level:

http://www.adfa.edu.au/~rmallett/

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20420.212115.7V6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
> ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
> Sorry to take up space with this.
>
> Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in stand=
> ard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I have wrong=
> ?

See below. You are sending html to the list. Check this url for info on
how to not do so:

	http://expita.com/nomime.html

Basicly, if your editor is *giving* you a font choice for a post to a
newsgroup or mailing list, it's either misconfigured or broken.

> Sam
>
> ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <HTML><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff" STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"=
>><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Sorry to take up space with this.</DIV> <DIV>&nbs=
> p;</DIV> <DIV>Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was=
>  sent in standard format. I use arial as my font.<FONT color=3D#000000>&n=
> bsp;What other setting&nbsp;might I have wrong?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;<=
> /DIV> <DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
> ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0--
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 01:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 00:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20420.223657.0H4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Okay, I think this may be pretty complicated, and I wouldn't be surprised if 
> the answer is "Can't be done" or "Too hard" or "Go pick up a $200 Orbital 
> Dyanmics Textbook and figure it out..."
>
> But...
>
> ...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of 
> a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system from above, and the 
> primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital parameters of the planet (orbital 
> radius, eccentricity, orbital speed, reference point, etc) and the date.
>
> I'd actually like to be able to do this for _the_ solar system, that is 
> enter 
> "Nov 16 1969" and be able to plot where the planets are on X,Y paper.
>
> Now, I know that there are comercial astronomy programs (Red Shifft, etc) 
> that can do this sort of thing...but I need to try and build this into a 
> different program, so I gotta write the algorithm myself.

A couple of books I have:

Astronomy on the Personal Computer
Oliver Montenbruck & Thomas Pfleger
ISBN: 3-540-63521-1

Practical astronomy with your Personal Computer
Peter Duffet-Smith

I don't have the ISBN on that one as I have the version for calculators.

The first book even includes a disk with source code.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 01:20:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 00:20:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20420.230402.9D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
>> HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
>> during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
>> entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
>> stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
>> have they discovered in regards to this test?

For that matter, if they *did* wind up hundreds or thousands of parsecs
away, how would the folks back at the research station ever find out?

Assuming you could build a transmitter powerful enough, it takes 326
years for a radio (or laser) signal to cross 100 parsecs. So if you
can't get back on your own, nobody will ever know. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 01:23:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 00:23:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020419202918.31056.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20420.230829.0o4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> --- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
>> Paul Walker writes:
>> > 
>> > If this is the case, what would happen if there
>> were a
>> > HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump
>> (or
>> > during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
>> > entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
>> > stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
>> > have they discovered in regards to this test?
>> 
>> I wouldn't recommend engaging a jump drive while
>> sitting in the hold of a
>> ship already in jump-space. As far as the results of
>> such an event, I would
>> assume a 99.9% chance of a catastrophic catastrophy.
>> Perhaps there'd be a One in a Trillion chance that
>> the ship would end up
>> 300,000 LY away in the Andromeda Galaxy (or at the
>> exit 13A Toll Plaza on
>> the NJ Turnpike for that matter).
>
> But why?  This is the second reply I got that said it
> would be a bad thing and would probably destroy all
> ships involved.  Is there any support for this?  I'm
> not opposed to non OTU, but my original question was
> whether there was anything in the official rules
> and/or history to support or prevent such occurances?

ASs I recall, Marc Miller has stated that all that's known about
attempts to engage a jump drive of a vessel inside a ship ythat's
already in jump is that nobody who planned to try it has ever been
heard from again. 

So either both ships were destroyed or they would up too far away to
get back.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC32DFD.4695.111623B@localhost>

On 19 Apr 2002 at 12:32, Daniel Tackett wrote:

> .
> > 
> > Pilots are made into officers for reasons of
> > tradition and there's no 
> > real reason for them to be, no matter what they
> > might say on this.
> > 
> Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> or no reason for them to be grunts first?

No reason for pilots to be officers. In WWI & WWII the pilots who were 
NCOs did just fine. IIRC Chuck Yeager was a Sergeant for WWII and a 
while after.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC32FBD.15769.11838CB@localhost>

On 19 Apr 2002 at 15:35, Michael Cessna wrote:

>   Pilots are officers because the military does not
> want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
> though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
> the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
> arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
> that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
> wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
> why........

But they're okay with NCOs (sometimes JNCOs) driving/commanding over 50 
tons of AFV, or operating anti-shipping missiles. Yep. Makes sense (I'm 
sure it must do somewhere or when).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <B8E701D4.5797E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204201431.EPV00623@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC3359D.13137.12F2A22@localhost>

On 20 Apr 2002 at 11:30, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me with a
> special insight when I had my own platoon. 

My reasoning for it is quite simple - having had to lug the sections MG 
through the bush and mud for several weeks gives a person a much better 
idea of just how much more those extra pounds slow and tire a person 
compared with a normal load. Also it would act as a weeding out process 
for some of those who thought it would be fun and games, and look good 
on their CV. I'd want at least a year, preferably two and ideally you 
wouldn't be able to do the actual officer selection until after that 
time (to help stop any favouritism), though in the real world that 
wouldn't work because very few of the sort of people you want would be 
willing to gamble with two years of their life like that.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:59:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:59:30 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <200204201736.g3KHaCP25223@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3CC3359C.14671.12F2926@localhost>

On 20 Apr 2002 at 10:34, Steven Hudson wrote:

>   Arguably this applied in certain periods of 
> Roman history, and perhaps in some other classical
> armies (where maybe only members of the right
> classes might act as commanders, but far from all
> of those eligible would fight except as ordinary
> soldiers).

True. And in theory the Athens so famour for its democracy didn't have 
an officer class/caste, etc. However in practice only those born of 
wealthy and influential families would be appointed, as with Rome 
(which is why I said there weren't any I knew of).

However it's probably worth noting that in these armies (especially the 
Roman one of the late Republic and early Empire) most of the positions 
we'd consider appropriate for officers were filled by Centurions and 
their superiors, all of whom were 'from the ranks'. There were officers 
above them who weren't from the ranks, but they were few and far 
between (I seem to recall there being none until Legion level, at which 
point there was the CO and several 'staff officers', etc.). Of course 
the rank structure was quite flat by modern western standards, too.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 04:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 03:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <200204202010.EQF02707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC33777.7691.136689C@localhost>

On 20 Apr 2002 at 16:10, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Not all platoons were this bad, thank God.  But there were 
> some like that.  And I put the blame not only on the LT, but 
> on the NCOs in the platoon.

For sure. When a platoon's that bad the OC _and_ the NCOs (all of them) 
need to be hauled over the coals. If that doesn't work send 'em down 
the road - a sideways 'promtion' is a really bad idea - some other poor 
sods might be so unlucky as to be under them when it goes to custard 
someday.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 05:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sun Apr 21 04:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3CC344CF.2707.70F26D@localhost>

On 21 Apr 2002, at 15:11, Alan Bradley wrote:

> The Australian army in WWI used four battalion infantry brigades.  Cavalry
> brigades were three regiments (battalions) per brigade.  I'm pretty sure
> this was British practice, too.  It's possible that things might have
> changed in the British army by 1918 though.  The site below is interesting,
> although not detailed past the battalion level:

At the outbreak of the 1st WW the standard European infantry 
division consisted of two brigades each of two 3 battalion regiments 
(thus giving 12 battalions). The British (and consequently Dominion 
and Empire troops) used a slightly modifed TOE with three 4 
battalion brigades to a division, also giving 12 battalions (BTW the 
Russians used two brigades each with two 4 battalion regiments 
for a total of 16 battalions). This is the classic "square" division

Between 1916 and 1917, the high level of attrition and need for 
further maneuver formations lead to the Germans and French 
changing to divisions consisting of three 3 battalion regiments for a 
total of 9 battalions (this is the now standard "trianglar" division). 
This was initially done simply to get more divisions out of the same 
number of battalions (they lacked the manpower to form new 
battalions), however it was found that the change actually resulted 
in an *increase* in firepower due to the improved tactical flexibility 
of the triangular organisation.

The British stuck with their 12 battalion divisions until 1918 when 
combined attrition of four years of trench warfare finally forced them 
to adopt the triangular division as well (not to get more divisions, 
they just didn't have the manpower to keep the existing divisions at 
12 battalions any more). I think the Australians and Canadians also 
moved to the triangular formation at around the same time. 
However the New Zealanders stuck with the older 12 battalion 
organisation right till the end of the war.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 06:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 05:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML]  Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020418234703.00aa66d0@mail.pi.se>

Hello!

Leonard Erickson wrote:

 >On the other hand, unless that collision happened *really* late in the
 >formation of the system, such a plent would tend to collect a lot more
 >gas and other stuff, and possibly wind up as a mini-GG.

 From what I recall of astronomy, the gas giants form relatively early in 
the planetary creation phase, before the solar wind has dissipated the gas 
disc. Perhaps within a few million years. The terrestrial worlds 
traditionally are pictured to form over a slightly longer period, maybe ten 
times slower - the planetesimals form quickly, but building planets from 
them take a bit more time. So there is not much of gas to collect for 
terrestrial worlds unless they form very fast. The terrestrial planets 
around our solar system seem to have got most of their atmosphere from 
impacts of comet material and outgassing, even though they would probably 
be massive enough to sweep up and retain several of the gasses in the disc 
had that disc remained when they reached present size.

I believe you mentioned yourself how gas giants are pictured to spiral 
inwards from being formed outside the snow line - it is hard to picture hot 
gas giants formed in place even around systems rich in heavy elements.

Secondarily, if we take the collision-based-planet with a density of 6-6.5 
instead of 5-5.5, it isn't that exceedingly more apt to collect more gas 
even if such gas remains in large amounts when the planet has reached such 
a size. The same problem would certainly exist for a world with slightly 
larger radius than Earth yet still having a lower density of the range you 
apparently accept as possible.

What I argue is that it is possible to build higher density worlds simply 
by using the normal rock & metal mix and examples our (only) sample solar 
system can provide.

 >>Above a certain point, you get runaway accumulation of material, which
 >>results in a gas giant of some sort.

As above, that is highly dependent not only on a limiting size/temperature 
but on whether there is any significant material to accumulate in that manner.

 >Also, that major collision is just as apt to scatter pieces of those
 >rocky world halfway across the system.

I'd wager it rather is much more likely it will shatter both bodies than it 
would stick together.

However, the surviving pieces of such collisions could still form more 
iron-rich cores in further accretion. Much or even most of the disc 
material is possibly ejected from the inner system anyway.

A high-density world would probably be more likely to survive with many 
smaller impacts blasting off parts of the lighter matter than a big one. 
Thus, my initial example was not optimal. But it still is not a reason to 
completely write off planets of say, 6-6.5 density planets as unrealistic 
or exceedingly uncommon - perhaps especially around high-metalicity stars 
where it can be assumed there would be more of rocky and metallic matter to 
accrete in the inner system.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 07:57:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 06:57:33 2002
Subject: [TML] planetoid hulls for GT?
Message-ID: <3CC2C4A6.1F017BE6@mail.cswnet.com>

How can I get a planetoid hull for GT?
Would the stats be in Gurps Vehicles?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 08:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Apr 21 07:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] living space
In-Reply-To: <200204210036.EQN01344@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEOKDOAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Just comparing a recent ship design of mine to a current
>nuclear submarine.
>
>It looks like a modern nuclear submarine allocates far, far
>less living space that we allocate in Traveller.  In what
>appears to be the same length of hull (length of living
>quarters space), with a known beam (10 meters in the case of
>the sub, 20 meters in the case of the Traveller ship).
>
>In roughly 176 Traveller displacement tons, the sub has over
>129 crew.  And this is being generous: part of this space is
>taken up by bridge and torpedo tubes.

Very true. And sailors on sailing ships had even less personal space. The
question is who would want to live like that? Conditions on submarines are
so crowded that since the 1950's submarine sailors have been allotted
quarters ashore. To really appreciate this you have to realize that surface
sailors who are single have been forced to live aboard ship, even when in
port. It basically means that you have no life. Recently the navy has begun
to extend this arrangement to surface sailors, providing quarters on a space
available basis to single sailors in home ports.

Also, one should not forget that the members of navies other than the U.S.
Navy live in much better conditions. German sailors have six person rooms
for the most junior people and four person rooms for more senior enlisteds.
(Not to mention being wet when in port.)

There is also a basic difference between any kind of Earth seagoing ship and
a Traveller spacecraft. Except in wartime most surface sailors spend only
weeks at sea between port visits. There are typically years between
deployments, which are 6 months long and are generally a matter of traveling
from port to port, with no more than a few weeks actually at sea at any one
time. (There is a certain difference now, but we are at war now, so I would
not call this typical.)

If the Traveller fleets follow the sailing pattern of the ships of the days
of sail, then it is likely that they spend years away from their home ports,
not weeks. In the age of sail sailors, in the British navy anyway, were
recruited by press gang, because it was such awful work that no one wanted
to do it. They were the dregs of society.

But the Traveller navies, like the wet navies of today require sophisticated
technologically savvy crewmen. Not the kind of people that would want to
live under conditions that exist on even today's ships (one reason the U.S.
Navy has so much trouble keeping people.)

One of the easiest, and cheapest in the long run, method of keeping high
quality people is to give them decent living conditions. It is common on
merchant ships today for seamen to live in the kind of berthing used on
Traveller ships. It is my contention that by the middle of this century U.S.
Navy ships will have similar berthing, if only because that's they only way
they will be able to compete for the high quality technical people they
need.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 08:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 07:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <20020421150430.A6895@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421071925.009f7600@mindspring.com>

At 03:04 PM 4/21/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
> > Because in this case the Jgd exist only in gas giant atmospheres,
> > are completely unfathomable to humans, and have no real motivations
> > that humans can figure out.

>But seriously, I don't see anything there that makes them more
>suitable as NPC material than as PC.

The inability and lack of desire for contact with other races? Other than 
their unique environment, the Jgd are pretty boring.

> > Playing a group of 10 meter spheres that die quickly on most
> > Imperial worlds and are allergic to jump would be a bit boring.
>
>Doesn't sound too bad to me.  Besides, if they're suitable as an NPC
>race, why aren't they suitable as PCs?  If they're boring for players
>to run, presumably they're just as boring for the GM.  If they're
>incomprehensible for players, they're just as incomprehensible for the
>GM.

Remember the Star Trek episode "Is There In Truth No Beauty?"

http://www.treasure-troves.com/startrek/IsThereInTruthNoBeauty.html

The Medusan ambassador is a good example of a race that makes an 
interesting one-time encounter, or an occassional source of odd 
adventures.  Likewise the Puppeteers in Larry Niven's Known Space 
series.  What they put Beowulf Shaeffer through...

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 08:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Sun Apr 21 07:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
Message-ID: <F89TT0rafoBdDvwGB9g0001145a@hotmail.com>

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
<P>
<DIV>&lt;snip several hundred thousand exceptionally vile words&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Leonard Erickson sent me&nbsp;a link that explained how to correct things. If I did it right this should be in rtf.</DIV>
<DIV>Sorry about the html. I didn't realize this idiotic ISP program was doing that.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></P></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <a href='http://g.msn.com/1HM205401/l'>Click Here</a><br></html>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 09:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Sun Apr 21 08:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421071925.009f7600@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204210955580.27392-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
> The Medusan ambassador is a good example of a race that makes an 
> interesting one-time encounter, or an occassional source of odd 
> adventures.  Likewise the Puppeteers in Larry Niven's Known Space 
> series.  What they put Beowulf Shaeffer through...

Limiting their suitability to a single encounter alone isn't a reason to
disallowing them as PCs.  They may only be suited to a one-shot adventure
or short mini-campaign, but what's wrong with that?

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Sun Apr 21 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204210955580.27392-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <010401c1e94c$9dd5b7e0$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

If you want to use them as a pc race fine, but I find for the most part most
races make better npc then pc, . YMMV
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Carl Kettler" <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
> Limiting their suitability to a single encounter alone isn't a reason to
> disallowing them as PCs.  They may only be suited to a one-shot adventure
> or short mini-campaign, but what's wrong with that?
>
> Gregory Kettler
> "Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
> --Dave, KODT
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 10:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 09:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <F89TT0rafoBdDvwGB9g0001145a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E83217.57B30%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/21/02 7:48 AM, Samuel Weiss at samwise1@msn.com wrote:

<snip several hundred thousand exceptionally vile words>
 
Leonard Erickson sent me a link that explained how to correct things. If I
did it right this should be in rtf.
Sorry about the html. I didn't realize this idiotic ISP program was doing
that.
 


But plain text would be better.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 10:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Sun Apr 21 09:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
References: <B8E83217.57B30%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>

Or maybe not ...

*SIGH*

Sorry yet again. Is this one right?


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 10:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Sun Apr 21 09:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
References: <B8E83217.57B30%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <014201c1e951$11ada520$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Hi Sam I didn't; know you where here to we really have to stop meeting like
this :)
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message -----
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@msn.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks


> Or maybe not ...
>
> *SIGH*
>
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?
>
>
> Sam
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 11:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 10:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E83E61.57B3B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/21/02 9:19 AM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@msn.com wrote:

> Or maybe not ...
> 
> *SIGH*
> 
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?
> 

You got it.  Thanks very much!!

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 11:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Sun Apr 21 10:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
References: <20020421100312.13099279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC2FEED.CA035AA0@together.net>

> From: MurfNMurf@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 18:55:03 EDT
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Alien Help
> 
>    Hi,
>    Looking for alien stats for Traveller (CT/MT) the other day on the WWWeb,
> I ran across a pretty extensive (and frankly, kind of frightening as well)
> list of Traveller-related aliens, and was wondering if folks might be able to
> help me out with stats for several species that looked pretty interesting.
>    Adduxar: Carnivorous reptilians from the Zhodani book.
>    Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.

	There's an expanded write-up of these creatures in GT:AR4. Along with a
number of other CT aliens and a few new one. 

>    Sambiqys: Red-zoned Androids from JTAS 24.
>
	I'm not sure where the Sambiqys were written up, but it's not in JTAS
24. In either case 101 Robots has a short writeup:

664x2-A4-PQ522-MFE7(P) Cr38,356,000 840kg
Fuel=155.225 Duration=21.56 TL=17
50/122 (mesh)
4 Med Tentacles, Head (10%), 2 eyes (+2 passive IR), 2 ears, Voder, 2
olfactory sensors, Touch sensors (+extra sensitivity), taste sensor, 2
Power interfaces, brain interface, TL17 holo recorder (3D) Electronic
circuit protection, Admin-4, Emotion Stimulation. 

	If you can read the Book8 formats that should give you a start on these
as characters. 	


-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 11:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Sun Apr 21 10:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <E16yrdg-0001rp-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <DAV501sDWek3BGGtyr300019c9b@hotmail.com>

John Snead wrote,

>I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and
that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually
fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine
sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas
all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.<

Oooohhhh ....
Someone who thinks Rand is as worthless as I do. Cool!
:-P

>ObTrav, in several hundred years it would be interesting to note
how various organizations have changed. A Feudal Technocracy
could easily go from being a technocratic meritocracy to being a
static and rigid system of technological oriented castes and still
maintain the same designation.<

Or like the Imperium itself?
:)

Or even more, consider how a change in social standards over a span of 20
years could cause people to question the government designations.  Likewise
with historical revisions.
How much would it take for <insert target leader here> to shift between
Charismatic and Non-Charismatic Dictator, or even from simply head of state
under a Representative Democracy to one of the above?


Sam
(My email is reconfigured, I have 5 minutes, and now the real suffering
begins! :-P)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
Message-ID: <19f.10e2de7.29f47482@aol.com>

--part1_19f.10e2de7.29f47482_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thanks for the info :)
Ken



--part1_19f.10e2de7.29f47482_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Thanks for the info :)
<BR>Ken
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_19f.10e2de7.29f47482_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 15:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Apr 21 14:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>
References: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3cc5281d.3577404@post.demon.co.uk>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:

>The Australian army in WWI used four battalion infantry brigades.  =
Cavalry
>brigades were three regiments (battalions) per brigade.  I'm pretty sure
>this was British practice, too. =20

Yes.  To be specific, composition of a British infantry division
altered as follows:

pre-war: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions (with 24 Vickers guns)
4 brigades of artillery (54 18lb, 18 4.5", 4 60lb)
2 Co. engineers, 1 Sq. cavalry, 1 Co. cyclists, support elements

mid-1915: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions (with 48 Vickers guns)
4 brigades of artillery (54 18lb, 8 4.5")
2 Co. engineers, 1 Sq. cavalry, 1 Co. cyclists, support elements

Sept 1916: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions, a trench mortar battery
and a machine gun company (with 144 Lewis guns, 48 Vickers guns and 8
3" mortars)
4 brigades of artillery (48 18lb, 16 4.5")
4 trench mortar batteries (12 2", 4 9.45")
2-3 Co. engineers, pioneer battalion, support elements.

Apr 1917: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions, a trench mortar battery and
a machine gun company (with 192 Lewis guns, 48 Vickers guns and 8 3"
mortars)
2 brigades of artillery (36 18lb, 12 4.5")
4 trench mortar batteries (12 2", 4 9.45")
1 machine gun company (16 Vickers guns)
2-3 Co. engineers, pioneer battalion, support elements.

Oct 1918: 3 brigades each of 3 battalions and a trench mortar battery
(with 324 Lewis guns and 8 3" mortars)
2 brigades of artillery (36 18lb, 12 4.5")
2 trench mortar batteries (12 2")
1 machine gun battalion (64 Vickers guns)
2-3 Co. engineers, pioneer battalion, support elements.

In short, a steady increase in the number of machine guns available to
the troops.  While the amount of artillery available at division and
lower levels tended to decrease, that's because it was taken into
general reserve to be deployed en masse for specific offensives -
something that made sense given the static nature of the Western
=46ront.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 15:32:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Apr 21 14:32:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419164150.01eb9740@mail.qrc.com>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203> <5.1.0.14.2.20020419164150.01eb9740@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3cc62d61.4925172@post.demon.co.uk>

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> writes:

>In every other case that is covered by the rules, attempting to do=20
>something unusual with a jump drive causes one of three results: either=20
>nothing happens, the ship misjumps, or is catastrophically destroyed.  =
Any=20
>of these would be appropriate, and destruction sounds most likely to me =
as=20
>well.

4)  you enter jump^2 space, where you spend z weeks and re-emerge into
normal jump-space z*Jn parsecs from your starting location.
Unfortunately, the value of the constant z is unknown... (but probably
extremely high.  Unless it's the square root of minus one or some such
value).  Also, the mapping of J^2-space onto j-space is not the same
as that of j-space to n-space...

5)  You appear at the centre of the universe before the throne of
Great Azathoth himself.

Stephen
tekeli-li...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 17:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr 21 16:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
References: <20020421190105.C74D2279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c1e989$71a64d00$81b18b90@computer>

> From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
> The British stuck with their 12 battalion divisions until 1918 when
> combined attrition of four years of trench warfare finally forced them
> to adopt the triangular division as well (not to get more divisions,
> they just didn't have the manpower to keep the existing divisions at
> 12 battalions any more). I think the Australians and Canadians also
> moved to the triangular formation at around the same time.
> However the New Zealanders stuck with the older 12 battalion
> organisation right till the end of the war.

OK.  That makes sense.

In WWII, Australian divisions were originally going to be organised with
four battalion brigades, but this was changed to bring them in line with
British practice.  I'd have to check the details, but I think the first
division raised (the 6th Division) was actually formed along these lines.
The battalions left over from the reduction to three battalion brigades were
assigned to the 7th or 8th division.  Like I said, I would need to check the
details...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 17:47:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 16:47:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421234639.35407.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh
future leader of men?  :P
END QUOTE
I'm a traditionilist. It means pretty much the same as
"I'm right behind you" (twelve miles that is) ;P

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 17:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 16:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421235144.21334.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
God help them.  I'm almost of the opinion that
officers should be enlisted first.  Even academy
cadets should complete 2 years before going to the
academy.
END QUOTE

I was joking! I'm not that sort of person. I in fact
believe they should do away with the whole enlited vs
officer thing! I mean it was orignally away to make
sure the nobles (no matter how imcompetent) where
never under the command of an commoner. I think every
one should start as private and take a test to be
accepted into a command academy. 

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:00:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:00:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421235938.36529.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Nah, he's just a Butter Bar wanna be. Like Lt. Gorman
in Aliens. Hey Top, you take the men in, I'll just
watch the camera's, and make sure my boots don't get
scuffed, oh, and once your in the meat grinder I'll 
be here to lead you out. Yes Sir, were on it. Vasquez
you take point.

Turokan
END QUOTE

In Australia we have pips! Not bars. ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
Message-ID: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>

I had to go with AOL 7.0 because my copy of the last AOL software that DIDN'T 
make getting rid of HTML codes a pain vanished with the HD crash of a few 
weeks ago. Regular e-mail isn't hard, but quoting text is now a major hassle, 
and I am more than a little annoyed.

This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much extraneous 
garbage?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:12:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:12:35 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <81.1a9d8d8c.29f4af3c@aol.com>

Samuel D. Weiss Said:
>>John Snead wrote,
>>
>>I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and
>>that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually
>>fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine
>>sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas
>>all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.<
>>
>Oooohhhh ....
>Someone who thinks Rand is as worthless as I do. Cool!

Without knowing how worthless you think Rand is, I've never been especially 
fond of her writing either

This is a test to see if quoted text works without extraneous garbage.

LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <20020422001538.87316.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Never, ever sign someone up as an infantryman, and
then tell him halfway through his term that "because
you were a programmer in civilian life, we're going to
make you one here, because we're short programmers. 
We don't know who assigned you here, but we've no use
for you otherwise.".
END QUOTE

Which is why I am not going to mention my major
(software engineering to the army). "Computer sir?, I
don't recognise that command sir!". Im going to be a
programmer in civilian life the last thing I want to
do in the army is program. Now running around with a
huge pack in the mud! Sounds like fun ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
In-Reply-To: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220957010.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi LKW:

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> I had to go with AOL 7.0 because my copy of the last AOL software that DIDN'T
> make getting rid of HTML codes a pain vanished with the HD crash of a few
> weeks ago. Regular e-mail isn't hard, but quoting text is now a major hassle,
> and I am more than a little annoyed.
>
> This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much extraneous
> garbage?
>
> LKW

 Shows up in PINE 4.44 fine, no extra stuff. And yeah I <96 mega pulses
deleted for content> hate aol as well.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

"J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:

> Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
> eliminate poverty?

The government defines a poverty line.  People at and near that 
point pay no income taxes.  Anyone with an income greater than 
that pays a graduated tax, depending upon how far above it they 
are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the 
government (much like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any 
money in) to give them money equal to being at the poverty line.  

End result: no one in the nation has an income that is below the 
poverty line.  Also, the amount of taxes necessary would not be 
that high, especially since the entire welfare bureaucracy (which 
consumes a surprisingly high percentage of the money allocated to 
this sector of the government) would be instantly eliminated.

In the 1970s, this idea was either proposed or promoted by  
economist Milton Friedman and was touted as a libertarian 
proposal.  Sadly, libertarianism has changed significantly since 
them (IMHO, much for the worse).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <20413.122049.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Leonard:

 Catching up on the back log of mail.

On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
> Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system.
>
> The disk formats haven't changed (not the flopiy ones anyway) and the
> newer programs can generally read the data files from the older ones.

 You have more knowledge on the tech of the systems than I. All i am
reporting is what the average user, the "plug & pray" type, have told me
in the shop. Explaining all the problems they have with the system and
upgrades. Problems with reading disks and accessing older files. I was
told that it is possible to do the work. This by a man in his 3rd year of
computer Scicese at UofO. But he also said it took some programming and
hardware work. his explanation went above my head.

> FM (aka "single density") and MFM (aka "double density" and "high density").
>
> Most "modern" floppy controller chips can't read FM disks. But a lot of
> fairly recent ones can. For example, the Adaptec SCSI cards that
> include a floppy controller can.

 Accedentally tried to format a single density disk on my 1571 drive. In
short I have 4 of them to now to a manual head alignment job. My drives
contain the micro processor. Not certain if new cards installed would work
or be possible. Though I do remember that the first HD for the C= being
the Lt. Kernal used MFM hard drives.

> With some easily available software I can read TRS-80 floppies on my
> PC. To read Commodore or Apple GCR disks, I'd have to install the old
> CopyIIPC deluxe option board in one of my systems.

 What about emulators? i hear on some of the lists and newsgroups about
Vice 1.8 as the best out there for reading C= disk images. The .D64, .D71
and the .D81 image copy style. is this what you mean or is the above
something that I am not familiar with at this time?

> PCjr floppies used the same format as the PC.
>
> No idea what the X-box uses.

 I may be wrong, but I was told that besides the disk media. That some of
the Os is put on the disk in what I know as track and sectors. I was told
that the track and sectors for this information change with the upgrades.
Therefore this is a reason why newer systems have trouble or can't read
the older disks. This problem happened when a friend of mine tried to copy
his wifes 286 disks to the hard drive on his vin95v4 <IIRC> it wrote new
os on the original disks. how this happened or the exact things done I
don'T know. just that both of them were stock users. No programming
understanding.

> What gets fun is when you need to read things like 8" floppies or the
> whacko Amstrad 3" (*not* 3.5"!) floppies. Or cassette tapes, or stringy
> floppies or other weird media.

 <grins> Recently saw a store selling the 8" ones as part of a side walk
sale. They were surprised when I went for 50 still sealed DS/Dd 5 1/4 soft
sectored disks. FWIW Verbatium has a site up where they are selling these
disks. including the 8" and some other weird sizes I don't remember.
Speaking of cassette tapes. That is a project that I am working upon.
Converting my tape collection to disk. Not an easy one. But possible. Not
certain what you mean by stringy floppies. But I do remember in college
paper tape and those <name escapes me> punch cards.

> I once had to recover a program by reading paper tape by *hand*.

 That was a test in 74 at the class I had to take. Fun isn't it?? <BG>

> I have a DOS program called HTMSTRIP that takes HTML and produces a
> reasonably formatted plain text file. It even puts in the "boxes" in
> tables.

 My Wave prg alows me to choice between a dial up to telnet or a direct
text based web browser. I can do better with the new beta version on
working with frames if I use the straight browser. Most of the time I use
the lynx for Inet web work. Takes most frames well. But not yet will
either do the boxes. My e-mail is with Pine 4.44 though the telnet.
Eventually I will use Qwkrr for my off line reader. Still sending via
telnet the packet to videocam. Generally it makes things smooth in
reading. Removing some inconsistencies and prompts me at the start of the
msg that it has done this job and that some charcters maynot be correct.
HTML though is not always corrected. At the best everything is in
underline. At the worse all commands are enclosed in "<xx>" in the msg.
Making inding the actual content almost impossible. I have yet to try w3m.
my SysAdmin tells me this is good for frames and forms.

> There's a DOS program that'll view many image formats, including .AVI
> and MPEG files, and play a lot of sound formats.

 The free beta test of JOS will allow me to see JPEG on scren while on
line. Also and here I am out of my experience, play Wave and RAW and some
form of streamlined MP something sound files. Right now I am considering
dl ing the plans for the new ethernet board for my C=.

> Well, the idea is that there need to be publicly available standards.
> Having multiple standards is merely inconvenient as long as the info
> on the file formats is available.

 That is a problem we have today the no standards since the other systems
like mine are still in use. Impossible to set a standard then without
causing a revolt of users of the non standard platforms. A good story idea
for a lower tech level world??

 Plot ideas are running rampant in my head. Wish I could read my
penmanship for the notes I am taking on this topic. So many worlds at so
many tech levels. Creating so many different platforms. The possibilities
for computer difficulties are almost endless. However I would think that
there are Imperial standards for navigation. Set probably by the ISS. Even
if emulators and converters have to be installed in the software or
hardware on the ship. Another part of the computer skill?

> The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
> either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
> to import and export files in those formats.

 That sounds nice on paper. However I can see resentment happening. Just
based on the little that we have not using windoze systems.  We face
discrimination and that builds resentment to hostility. In Traveller, on
frontiere worlds that are doing their own thing. This could grow into a
sense of "National" pride. Or the thought of being "forced" into
something. Still I suspect that there is something going on in the
computer line. Where the files are sent say from the x-boat to panet and
revers. Where it is translated to the usable format for the receptor of
the information.

> Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
> equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
> finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice.

 Myself, I am working on converting PET to geoWrite 2.1 then converting
the final output to Ascii for upload to the places I write for through the
Inet. I can do the revese and prefere to do all my writing in GeoWrite 2.1
Takes just a few minutes to convert back and forth. Perhaps that is a
thought for the Imperial mail at least. Though expanded for images and
text for the local systems.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <20020422001538.87316.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421173609.009ec3e0@mindspring.com>

At 10:15 AM 4/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Now running around with a
>huge pack in the mud! Sounds like fun ;)

Oh it is, for the first ten miles or so!

OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at the start of the 
road march, how much will it weigh after 25 miles cross-country through 
Korea in July?


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:06:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:06:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
In-Reply-To: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174048.009fa870@mindspring.com>

At 08:07 PM 4/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
>This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much extraneous
>garbage?

Check. free and clear.

If I ever have to change systems, I'm posting the Beowulf mayday as my test 
post.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:09:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:09:13 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020421235144.21334.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174146.009fba50@mindspring.com>

At 09:51 AM 4/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
>I was joking! I'm not that sort of person. I in fact
>believe they should do away with the whole enlited vs
>officer thing! I mean it was orignally away to make
>sure the nobles (no matter how imcompetent) where
>never under the command of an commoner.

Well, that's sort of true, but there is a very real reason for the gulf 
between officers and enlisted men.

In combat, and officers has to be able to order men to take actions that 
will almost certainly get them killed, and have those orders carried out 
without question. An officer has to be a rather remote figure of power, 
hence all the saluting and calling someone with bars on his collars  "Sir" 
even though he might be younger than you.

Officers also are the responsible ones.  When things go wrong, it is the 
officer's fault. That is an awesome responsibility, and they deserve 
a  little deference from us grunts.

I served under all three flavors of officer, ROTC, trade school, and 
OCS.  They all had their differences, but I'd rather be led a member of the 
Hudson High Alumni association than a guy doing his six years to pay off 
getting his degree in Marketing at Party U.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:13:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220927280.6440-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Sam:

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Samuel D. Weiss wrote:

> Or maybe not ...
>
> *SIGH*
>
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?

 Came across to me <ascii only> quite fine. No html or things I can't
read.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204220112.ESJ04755@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry asks
>
>OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at 
>the start of the road march, how much will it weigh after 25 
>miles cross-country through Korea in July?
>

About the same as the Dragon, with spare round.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:18:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:18:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
Message-ID: <20020421.210932.-150737.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

> This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much 
> extraneous garbage?
> 
> LKW

I'm reading it fine as straight text.  Considering I use Juno (which
considers *anything* besides straight text as an evil abberation) I'd say
you're doing fine.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421173609.009ec3e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC36486.FE987F75@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 10:15 AM 4/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
> >Now running around with a
> >huge pack in the mud! Sounds like fun ;)
> 
> Oh it is, for the first ten miles or so!
> 
> OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at the start of the
> road march, how much will it weigh after 25 miles cross-country through
> Korea in July?

23 pounds, which is about half as much as that damnable M40 protective
mask that keeps banging against your left thigh with each step.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:26:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Scheets)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:26:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <008801c1e978$f0b18e40$8e83bad0@computer2>

Robot cameras 'will predict crimes before they happen'

By learning behaviour patterns, computers could soon alert police when an
unmanned camera sees 'suspicious' activity
By Andrew Johnson
21 April 2002

Computers and CCTV cameras could be used to predict and prevent crime before
it happens.

Scientists at Kingston University in London have developed software able to
anticipate if someone is about to mug an old lady or plant a bomb at an
airport.

It works by examining images coming in from close circuit television cameras
(CCTV) and comparing them to behaviour patterns that have already programmed
into its memory.

The software, called Cromatica, can then mathematically work out what is
likely to happen next. And if it is likely to be a crime it can send a
warning signal to a security guard or police officer.

Full story at:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=287307


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:34:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:34:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <20020422001538.87316.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002301c1e99e$0f4d18e0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Ramsay" <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au>
> Which is why I am not going to mention my major
> (software engineering to the army). "Computer sir?, I
> don't recognise that command sir!"

Just as long as you don't say "Computer sir? Bad Command or Filename sir!"

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <81.1a9d8d8c.29f4af3c@aol.com>
References: <81.1a9d8d8c.29f4af3c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8qq6cukej81v0jdgtshfhj82sl6acr8foc@4ax.com>

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 20:11:40 EDT, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>Samuel D. Weiss Said:
>>>John Snead wrote,
>>>
>>>I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and
>>>that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it =
actually
>>>fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine
>>>sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas
>>>all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.<
>>>
>>Oooohhhh ....
>>Someone who thinks Rand is as worthless as I do. Cool!
>
>Without knowing how worthless you think Rand is, I've never been =
especially=20
>fond of her writing either
>
>This is a test to see if quoted text works without extraneous garbage.

The quoting seems to have worked pretty well from this side of things.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 21:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 20:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020421224306.00a87f00@rollanet.org>

So this is the reason that starports are on the planet's surface and 
highports aren't as common.

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%7B1F54AEED-A34B-411B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D

--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 21:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 21 20:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 05:38:11PM -0700
References: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020421214459.A958@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 05:38:11PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the government (much
> like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any money in) to give them
> money equal to being at the poverty line.

All that'd do is devalue the dollar until the poverty line in dollars
is once again below the poverty line in fact.  It's a better scheme
than the current welfare regime, and may indeed work rather more
slowly to eviscerate the economy, but the end result'd be the same.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Security-wise, NT is a server with a 'kick me' sign taped to it.
                                                --Peter Gutmann

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 22:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 21:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <20020422041531.74282.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Robot cameras 'will predict crimes before they happen'
By learning behaviour patterns, computers could soon
alert police when an unmanned camera sees 'suspicious'
activity
END QUOTE

Until we develop AI or very very sophisticated system
this would be useless in the real world. How does a
computer now whether a person is reaching for a gun or
there wallet? Answer they can't. All it can do is
determine that an image of a person looks like its
reaching for something. If they stopped wasting money
on tech dreams such as this actual humans could be
hired. And for a very long time into the future humans
(even the ones typically hired as security guards)
will have more reasoning ability than all the
computers in the world! Robotic security guards have
been in development since the 70's and no one has yet
to make one that is accurate and/or doesn't cost more
than the police budget for a small city.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 22:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 21:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules (OT about computers)
Message-ID: <20020422041947.44658.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Just as long as you don't say "Computer sir? Bad
Command or Filename sir!"
END QUOTE

Evil thought! 

EnlistedOS. "What hard drive sir?", "Sir, the private
doesn't know where that file is", "I don't know what
happened to the RAM, sir", "Sir, it was there the last
time I checked", "But sir the registry needed cleaning
sir".

very evil indeed.

James




=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 22:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 21:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <3CC3930A.D2B8F94D@mail.cswnet.com>

Richard Wilson writes:
>So this is the reason that starports are on the planet's surface and 
>highports aren't as common.

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%7B1F54AEED-A34B-411B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D

JOY! Hydrogen wells! JOY! That will make the Downports in systems
without gas giants or other significant surface water so much easier to
deal with. I can see it now...

"168-1106 Arba/Lunion
A media advisor for Myers Mining and Manufacturing announced the
discovery of large subsurface hydrogen deposits....."

I can see the port director thinking about it now...

"No more stupid fuel blimps. No more running to the asteroid belt to
melt ice. No more begging Lanth for a refueling ship. No more...."

I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen Drilling Platform?
What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How exactly would one
extract it from the subsurface? Would there be any hazards?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 23:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 22:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20421.215401.3P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Or maybe not ...
>
> *SIGH*
>
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?

Yep. Looks good.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 23:09:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 22:09:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <F89TT0rafoBdDvwGB9g0001145a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20421.215246.9z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
> <P>
> <DIV>&lt;snip several hundred thousand exceptionally vile words&gt;</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>Leonard Erickson sent me&nbsp;a link that explained how to correct 
> things. If I did it right this should be in rtf.</DIV>
> <DIV>Sorry about the html. I didn't realize this idiotic ISP program was 
> doing that.</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></P></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Join the world&#8217;s largest 
> e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <a 
> href='http://g.msn.com/1HM205401/l'>Click Here</a><br></html>

You don't want RTF either. You want "plain text" or "ASCII". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 00:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 23:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <20020421.230604.-125605.5.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:35:22 -0500 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
>
> I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen Drilling Platform?
> What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How exactly would one
> extract it from the subsurface? Would there be any hazards?
> 

One word - Praxis!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 00:12:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 23:12:29 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421.230604.-125605.4.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:59:38 +1000 (EST) =?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=
<quakers_united@yahoo.com.au> writes:
> QUOTE
> Nah, he's just a Butter Bar wanna be. 
> 
> Turokan
> END QUOTE
> 
> In Australia we have pips! Not bars. ;)
> 
> James

That's fine James, in America it fits our Army OCS graduates fairly well.
Not the West Point grads. To me, if they can make it through West Point,
they've earned the respect of being called Sir.

Anyway Butter "pips" just don't sound good.

What do you call your OCS officers?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 00:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 23:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20421.220153.6l0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hoi Leonard:
>
>  Catching up on the back log of mail.
>
> On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
>> Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system.
>>
>> The disk formats haven't changed (not the flopiy ones anyway) and the
>> newer programs can generally read the data files from the older ones.
>
>  You have more knowledge on the tech of the systems than I. All i am
> reporting is what the average user, the "plug & pray" type, have told me
> in the shop. Explaining all the problems they have with the system and
> upgrades. Problems with reading disks and accessing older files. I was
> told that it is possible to do the work. This by a man in his 3rd year of
> computer Scicese at UofO. But he also said it took some programming and
> hardware work. his explanation went above my head.

Upgrading hardware can cause problems with almost any bit of hardware
in the system. A common problem when upgrading to the motherboards we
prefer is that the printer port won't work unless you know the right
way to force Windows to rescan for the hardware in the system. 

Most folks just give up and reinstall from scratch. 

Also, floppy drives *do* get out of alignment. 

But with windows, the first thing to suspect is that hardware manager
is loading drivers for a previous card or motherboard.

>> With some easily available software I can read TRS-80 floppies on my
>> PC. To read Commodore or Apple GCR disks, I'd have to install the old
>> CopyIIPC deluxe option board in one of my systems.
>
>  What about emulators? i hear on some of the lists and newsgroups about
> Vice 1.8 as the best out there for reading C= disk images. The .D64, .D71
> and the .D81 image copy style. is this what you mean or is the above
> something that I am not familiar with at this time?

I'm talking about reading actual floppies. The CopyIIPC board hooks
between the PC's floppy controller and the floppy drives. It lets you
read Mac & Commodore floppies.

>> PCjr floppies used the same format as the PC.
>>
>> No idea what the X-box uses.
>
>  I may be wrong, but I was told that besides the disk media. That some of
> the Os is put on the disk in what I know as track and sectors. I was told
> that the track and sectors for this information change with the upgrades.

Nope.

DOS and Windows use 512 byte sectors on floppies (and on most HDs). The
original 5.25" floppies used 40 tracks, with 8 sectors per track.
Single or double sided. (for 160k and 320k per floppy)

Later that was upped to 9 sectors per track, giving 180k and 360k per
floppy.

There were some odd formats used on a few proprietary versions of DOS,
especially on 3.5" disks before IBM introduced their version. 

Standard 3.5" DD disks are 720k. 80 track, 40 sectors per track.

The HD floppies were 80 track on both sizes of floppy. Which, btw,
caused mah\jor problems with writing to 5.25" DD floppies on HD drives...

1.2M 5.25" floppies were 16 sectors per track, 80 track.
1.4 meg 3.5" floppies were 18 sectors per track, 80 track.

But with the right commands you can read/write any MFM format that the
drive will support. 

It's the weird sector sizes, FM and GCR formats that you need to have
the right hardware for.

> Therefore this is a reason why newer systems have trouble or can't read
> the older disks.

Ok, Windows will clobber *non*-DOS disks, and some "special" dos disks
because it checks to see if disks have been changed by writing a made
up string to a location on the floppie normal used for an ID string
used to identify various OEM versions of DOS. This makes the disks
unreadable on the original system.

Never stick install disks from older software, or things like BIOS
upgrade disks into a box running windows without write protecting the floppy.

> This problem happened when a friend of mine tried to copy
> his wifes 286 disks to the hard drive on his vin95v4 <IIRC> it wrote new
> os on the original disks. how this happened or the exact things done I
> don'T know. just that both of them were stock users. No programming
> understanding.

Trust me, *they* did it. Not the OS.

Either the alignment on the drives doiffered and it asked if he wanted
to format the disks, and he said yes, or he did something else stupid. 

You see, without any special commands at all, I copied 100 floppies from
an XT system to directories on my HD and then burned a CD for him. 

I had a bit more trouble with the HD...

>> What gets fun is when you need to read things like 8" floppies or the
>> whacko Amstrad 3" (*not* 3.5"!) floppies. Or cassette tapes, or stringy
>> floppies or other weird media.
>
>  <grins> Recently saw a store selling the 8" ones as part of a side walk
> sale. They were surprised when I went for 50 still sealed DS/Dd 5 1/4 soft
> sectored disks. FWIW Verbatium has a site up where they are selling these
> disks. including the 8" and some other weird sizes I don't remember.

8" floppies are *expensive* now, because so few folks use them anymore.

> Speaking of cassette tapes. That is a project that I am working upon.
> Converting my tape collection to disk. Not an easy one. But possible. Not
> certain what you mean by stringy floppies. But I do remember in college
> paper tape and those <name escapes me> punch cards.

Stringy flopies were a sort of high speed cassette. They used a credit
card sized endless loop tape (rather like an 8-track, but smaller). The
drives were available for several systems, Apple, TRS-80, etc.

>> Well, the idea is that there need to be publicly available standards.
>> Having multiple standards is merely inconvenient as long as the info
>> on the file formats is available.
>
>  That is a problem we have today the no standards since the other systems
> like mine are still in use. Impossible to set a standard then without
> causing a revolt of users of the non standard platforms. A good story idea
> for a lower tech level world??

You are suffering from the delusion that new standards are required to
be usable on "obsolete" equipment. Or even on brands of equipment other
than those of the outfit setting the standard.

>  Plot ideas are running rampant in my head. Wish I could read my
> penmanship for the notes I am taking on this topic. So many worlds at so
> many tech levels. Creating so many different platforms. The possibilities
> for computer difficulties are almost endless. However I would think that
> there are Imperial standards for navigation. Set probably by the ISS. Even
> if emulators and converters have to be installed in the software or
> hardware on the ship. Another part of the computer skill?

You have to remember that most lower tech worlds aren't inventing their
tech. They are upgrading to *existing* tech used on other worlds. Or
they have chosen a locally sustainable tech level lower than that of
the world they were settled from.

After the Long night, you'd get a lot of independent stuff. But it'd be
unlikely to last more than a century or so. Uniform standards are just
too useful. And unless you are the highest tech world in the area,
you'll be replacing or upgrading your stuff in less than a century
anyway. 

>> The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
>> either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
>> to import and export files in those formats.
>
>  That sounds nice on paper. However I can see resentment happening. Just
> based on the little that we have not using windoze systems.  We face
> discrimination and that builds resentment to hostility. In Traveller, on
> frontiere worlds that are doing their own thing. This could grow into a
> sense of "National" pride. Or the thought of being "forced" into
> something.

I think you are confused here. I'm talking about data formats. That's
not the same as stuff like spreadsheets and other "software specific"
formats. 

The only reason you wouldn't be able to import/export stuff in a
"universal" data format would be if your equipment just plain wasn't up
to handling the *data*. For example, it gets *really* hard to handle
multi-gigabyte files on an 8-bit system<g>

The one exception would be compression methods, where the "horsepower"
of the system can make it impossible to handle it on lower powered
systems.

Windows dominance and "universal" data exchange formats are only
loosely related. MS *wants* their stuff to be all that's used and tries
to make it hard to use "foreign" formats (or makes changes to break
formats so the MS version can read files from other software but can't
be read on the other platforms).

> Still I suspect that there is something going on in the
> computer line. Where the files are sent say from the x-boat to panet and
> revers. Where it is translated to the usable format for the receptor of
> the information.

It shouldn't require translation *at all* is my point. GIFs don't need
to be translated. ASCII text only needs translation on systems that
don't support it (and BTW, Commodore was incredibly *stupid* in not
supporting ASCII when they designed the PET the standard had been
around since 1968!!)

>> Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
>> equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
>> finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice.
>
>  Myself, I am working on converting PET to geoWrite 2.1 then converting
> the final output to Ascii for upload to the places I write for through the
> Inet. I can do the revese and prefere to do all my writing in GeoWrite 2.1
> Takes just a few minutes to convert back and forth. Perhaps that is a
> thought for the Imperial mail at least. Though expanded for images and
> text for the local systems.

Again, most tech will *not* be native except in small areas or certain
time periods.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <010401c1e94c$9dd5b7e0$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic

Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.

Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
<grin>

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:26:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:26:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
In-Reply-To: <20020421.230604.-125605.5.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
> >
> > I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen 
> > ? Drilling Platform?
> > What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How 
> > exactly would one> extract it from the subsurface? 
> > Would there be any hazards?
> 
> One word - Praxis!

Um, sorry ?

What does Piaget's term for a child's system of coordinated 
and deliberate movements acquired during the sensory- motor 
stage of development have to do with hydrogen drillling ? 

Or, for that matter, what does the term for the right of 
a Camarilla Prince to rule his city have to do with hydrogen 
drilling ?

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:28:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:28:47 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote :
> The government defines a poverty line.
> People at and near that  point pay no income taxes.
> Anyone with an income greater than that pays a
> graduated tax, depending upon how far above it
> they are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets
> money from the government (much like a tax refund
> but w/o having to pay any money in) to give them
> money equal to being at the poverty line.
>
> End result: no one in the nation has an income that is
> below the poverty line.

And almost no one in the counry has an after tax income that is
much above the poverty line either.

> Also, the amount of taxes necessary
> would not be  that high,

Oh yes it is. You should try living in New Zealand.
20% of the country pay for 80% of it.
The remaining 20% pay their own way.

I'm paying about 40% of my income in income tax alone.
Add onto that sales tax, local government taxes, etc, etc.
and its approaching 60% of my income in tax.

And I still have to pay health insurance and tuition fees on
top of that because the state systems suck for everything
except emergency surgery.

> especially since the entire welfare
> bureaucracy (which consumes a surprisingly high
> percentage of the money allocated to this sector
> of the government) would be instantly eliminated.

And instead that bureaucracy would be duplicated
in the IRS. The bureaucracy for distributing the
money will be the same no matter who controls it.

They had the same idea over here, it increased the
bureaucracy, because although they had the IRD
refunding money to people, they _still_ had to have
the rest of the social welfare system to handle all
the other allowances, like the solo parent's benefit,
the "being Maori" benefit, the "being lesbian"
benefit, and the "being a Maori lesbian solo parent"
benefit, and the...

Sorry, it gets a bit much sometimes, especially when
they teach young girls that a "valid career choice" is
"solo parent".

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002, at 20:35, Frank Pitt wrote:

> They had the same idea over here, it increased the
> bureaucracy, because although they had the IRD
> refunding money to people, they _still_ had to have
> the rest of the social welfare system to handle all
> the other allowances, like the solo parent's benefit,
> the "being Maori" benefit, the "being lesbian"
> benefit, and the "being a Maori lesbian solo parent"
> benefit, and the...
> 

Frank, please be careful here.  I'd like not to be too inflammatory, 
but that statement came close to being racist and homophobic, 
two adjectives I really don't like.  If you need to say stuff like that, 
please keep it out of my mailbox.

Sincerely,
-- Rachel Kronick


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 03:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon Apr 22 02:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <200204220112.ESJ04755@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPEENFEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Douglas Berry asks
>
>OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at
>the start of the road march, how much will it weigh after 25
>miles cross-country through Korea in July?
>

It is a well know fact that as one gets more tired gravity increases where
ever you happen to be. Thus equations for acceleration due to gravity need
to incorporate a fatigue factor.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 03:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 02:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020421214459.A958@4dv.net>
References: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020421214459.A958@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020422193023.A3521@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> All that'd do is devalue the dollar until the poverty line in
> dollars is once again below the poverty line in fact.

Not at all.  That would only be true if the society is very close to
being unable to support its population at poverty line levels -- which
doesn't hold true for any modern industrialised nation.  It is already
demonstrated that rich countries *can* support large government
payments to a large proportion of their population -- all that would
change is who gets what.

Compared with Australia's current welfare system, for example, it
would greatly *encourage* employment and hence productivity of society
as a whole.  As it stands, anyone in Australia who gets even a
part-time job loses their unemployment payments, health care
concessions, rent assistance, eligibility for taxation breaks, and
other benefits -- and usually so do their spouses.  It's a great
disincentive -- in most cases, working 20 hours a week is a net *loss*
over not working at all.

I realise this anecdotal report doesn't refute your point, but it does
show that a much worse system than the one proposed can remain stable
for quite a while.  I don't think it will actually remain so for
political reasons, but economically it could certainly be sustained
indefinitely.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 03:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Apr 22 02:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <20020422093745.58225.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to
> Comics.
Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember
what he did.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 04:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 03:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz> <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020422202058.B3521@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rachel Kronick wrote:
> Frank, please be careful here.  I'd like not to be too inflammatory, 
> but that statement came close to being racist and homophobic, 

Blame it on the government, not Frank.  They're the ones making
decisions whether to hand out money based on the origin of your
ancestors.  I'm not sure whether he was being serious about the
"lesbian" benefit or not.  The solo parent benefit certainly is fact.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 06:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon Apr 22 05:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422202058.B3521@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002, at 20:20, Timothy Little wrote:

> Blame it on the government, not Frank.  They're the ones making
> decisions whether to hand out money based on the origin of your
> ancestors.  I'm not sure whether he was being serious about the
> "lesbian" benefit or not.  The solo parent benefit certainly is fact.
> 

I have little or no problem with the government's decisions regarding 
benefits; the problem was that Frank came very close to implicitly 
saying that being Maori or being lesbian was a bad thing.  His 
derisive tone, not the government's decision, was what irked me.

Okay, nothing further on this subject, at least from me.  

-- Rachel 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 06:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon Apr 22 05:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <E16zdOy-0005P5-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

Eventhough the people maintaining the airplane are all enlisted, some with =
only 6-8 weeks of training.

Beth (retired aircraft maintainer)


>   Pilots are officers because the military does not
> want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
> though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
> the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
> arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
> that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
> wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
> why........
>=20
>      MACessna


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon Apr 22 06:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <E16zdga-0005cC-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

It's OK, nothing to worry about.  Everything will be alright.  Why don't yo=
u follow these two gentlemen to a nice comfy room we have for you.  All pad=
ded and quiet.  Latter we will feed you.  We hope that you like pudding.  W=
e will even fit you with a new jacket as well.  <g,d,r>

Beth :)  (who also had had the same types of brain lock-downs)


>=20
> Mr. McKnight,
>=20
>      Thanks for the tip.  As way of illustrating my dearth of research=20
> skills, I've been mindlessly typing "TO&E" into various search engines.  =
I=20
> never thought to actually SPELL the acronym out!  Did I mention that my h=
ead=20
> comes to a point?
>=20
>      "Sorry for putting this on the web, but I can't contact you offlist=
=20
> without an email address.  :-)"
>=20
>      Yet another example of typical Whipsnadian brain flatulence.  I ask =
the=20
> kind folk of the TML to contact me off-List and then neglect to provide t=
he=20
> address.  Did I mention that my head comes to a point?
>      Thanks again for your help.
>=20
>=20
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 08:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Mon Apr 22 07:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
Message-ID: <F34UkSQDq1gFSlgOLN300005c8f@hotmail.com>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
> >
> >I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me
> >with a special insight when I had my own platoon.
> >
>
>I think it's better to find out that someone can't delegate
>when they're an NCO (or even a corporal) rather then after we
>waste the money to make them an officer.
>
>Of course, I don't believe that leadership can be "taught".
>Talent in this area can be nurtured, grown, and refined, but
>never "taught".  If you can't lead or delegate to begin with,
>no amount of training is going to make a difference.
>
>One other area of "talent" that isn't easily remedied by
>training - tactical ability, and an ability to implement that
>tactical brilliance in your platoon. All platoon drills
>aside -- can you and your men really fight?  I remember
>watching platoons turning into indecisive, sleep-deprived
>zombies because no one in the chain of command, officer or
>nco, could get it all together.  There's nothing more
>unnerving to me than watching a platoon in training mill
>around in my scope when a few of them are hit with MILES
>gear.  Watching the men peep their heads in and out of the
>woodline like idiots.  Officers and NCOs scratching their
>heads and having a committee meeting to decide what to do.  I
>even remember a fat platoon sergeant ambling out into the
>open, looking up and down the danger space, trying to figure
>out where I was.
>
>Not all platoons were this bad, thank God.  But there were
>some like that.  And I put the blame not only on the LT, but
>on the NCOs in the platoon.

I want to give the list a URL...  
http://www2.inc.com/incmagazine/archives/04980541.html

This is an article titled "Corps Values" and it is about the USMC method of 
developing leaders at TBS, The Basic School.  It is an excellent read, and 
gives good insight to the qualities looked for in the screening and 
evaluating process that the US Marine Corps uses in developing leaders.

Obtrav:  All Marine Officers, in the entire force, attend one of the two or 
three basic schools in the Imperium....

Greg Smith
Capt  USMC (former)




Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 08:31:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 07:31:08 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <20020422093745.58225.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422092623.045e5950@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_476139==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Co-author of Dungeons and Dragons.  TSR did their level best to erase his 
name from D&D; Arneson had to sue for royalties; they settled out of court 
back in 1979.

Victor Raymond

At 02:37 AM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to
> > Comics.
>Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember
>what he did.
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
>http://games.yahoo.com/
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor J. Raymond
Department of Sociology, ISU
vraymond@iastate.edu
--=====================_476139==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
Co-author of Dungeons and Dragons.&nbsp; TSR did their level best to
erase his name from D&amp;D; Arneson had to sue for royalties; they
settled out of court back in 1979.<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
At 02:37 AM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what
Kirby was to<br>
&gt; Comics.<br>
Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember<br>
what he did.<br><br>
__________________________________________________<br>
Do You Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more<br>
<a href="http://games.yahoo.com/" eudora="autourl">http://games.yahoo.com/</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
TML mailing list<br>
TML@travellercentral.com<br>
<a href="http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml" eudora="autourl">http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml</a></blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times">Victor J. Raymond<br>
Department of Sociology, ISU<br>
vraymond@iastate.edu</font></html>

--=====================_476139==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 08:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Apr 22 07:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> End result: no one in the nation has an income that
> is below the 
> poverty line.  Also, the amount of taxes necessary
> would not be 
> that high, especially since the entire welfare
> bureaucracy (which 
> consumes a surprisingly high percentage of the money
> allocated to 
> this sector of the government) would be instantly
> eliminated.

The only way I can see such a system working is if you
ensure that those in the system are at least
attempting to be employed.  That, then, requires that
at least some of your welfare bureaucracy remain.  I'm
not suggesting that our current system is better, just
pointing out a possible problem.

Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is 10,000Cr. 
If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away 10,000
of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick.  In
my mind, this situation would produce three types of
people:

1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
     These people continue to earn as much as they
can, either (a) hoping that maybe the government will
not need all of it to pay for those not at poverty
level and that they will get to keep the extra
(doubtful) or (b) working because they are not
concerned with the money aspect of the work, but are
motivated by something else entirely.

2.  Workers (Small Minority)
     These people work to earn poverty level, and take
the rest of the time off.  They are of the type who
believe that labor is good and want to earn for their
family.

3.  Loafers (Very Large Majority)
     These people realize that no matter how much (or
how little) they work, they will get at least enough
money to subsist and if they earn more, the government
is likely to take it all from them.  They reason that
there is no reason to work.

Although I (and probably many others) may want to
think and believe we would be in categories 1 or 2,
how many of us love our work, or feel compelled to
work enough that we could withstand the temptation to
be in category 3?  Not many, I would guess.

Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were
making an attempt at earning a living, and there is
your welfare bureaucracy.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>; from rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net on Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 09:01:26PM +0800
References: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost> <20020422202058.B3521@freeman.little-possums.net> <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020422085927.A5010@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 09:01:26PM +0800, Rachel Kronick wrote:
> 
> I have little or no problem with the government's decisions regarding 
> benefits; the problem was that Frank came very close to implicitly 
> saying that being Maori or being lesbian was a bad thing.

No--he implied that benefits solely because one is Maori or lesbian
are a bad thing.

> His derisive tone, not the government's decision, was what irked me.

The derision was for the government's decision.

Sheesh, I cannot believe I'm defending someone I've killfiled.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Exodus will never disconnect a spammer.  By the time the complaints
reach a level adequate to persuade them, the small-arms fire will
prevent their admins from reaching the servers --clifto, in nanae

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:02:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:02:21 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204221459.g3MExjP00155@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Rupert 
...
>>   Arguably this applied in certain periods of 
>> Roman history, and perhaps in some other classical
>> armies (where maybe only members of the right
>> classes might act as commanders, but far from all
>> of those eligible would fight except as ordinary
>> soldiers).
>
>True. And in theory the Athens so famour for its democracy didn't have 
>an officer class/caste, etc. However in practice only those born of 
>wealthy and influential families would be appointed, as with Rome 
>(which is why I said there weren't any I knew of).
>
>However it's probably worth noting that in these armies (especially the 
>Roman one of the late Republic and early Empire) most of the positions 
>we'd consider appropriate for officers were filled by Centurions and 
>their superiors, all of whom were 'from the ranks'. There were officers 
>above them who weren't from the ranks, but they were few and far 
>between (I seem to recall there being none until Legion level, at which 
>point there was the CO and several 'staff officers', etc.). Of course 
>the rank structure was quite flat by modern western standards, too.

  That's why I went with "arguably" - it can be presented either way,
with the big issue being whether some of those positions (eg, a Roman
centurion) were officers or NCO's. By the social standards of the
non-professionals in command (& staff) at Legion level they were only
commoners for almost all purposes, but the Legion could sooner function
without any of those patricians or equites than it could with even half
of the centurionate absent.

  Given the role of the army in political strife in the later Empire,
maybe the empire would have functioned better without any of those
classes in the legions :|

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174048.009fa870@mindspring.com>
References: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174048.009fa870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020422170728.7ba62ef6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Check. free and clear.
> 
> If I ever have to change systems, I'm posting the Beowulf mayday as my
test 
> post.

This is Free PC Beowulf
pinging anyone...
Mayday, Mayday... we are under attack...
hard drive is gone...
serial port number one not responding...
Mayday... losing system stability fast...
calling anyone... please help...
This is Free PC Beowulf

<message repeats>

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changes to First In rules
In-Reply-To: <000d01c1e7bb$b9afeea0$0f01a8c0@terry>
References: <20020316213935.3edca0b2.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <000d01c1e7bb$b9afeea0$0f01a8c0@terry>
Message-ID: <20020422171232.3a3ba7ef.jenry023@student.liu.se>

tmixon wrote:
> The ratio is wrong. The standard star distribution is 4+ on 1d6. That
> means an average of 640 systems per sector. So this one is actually 1.28
> per sector.

Oops, my mistake.

<snip>
> If you want the ratios on one per sector or one every 7.5 sectors, the
> ratios will need to change.

Right, thanks.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <F34UkSQDq1gFSlgOLN300005c8f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204221040090.12612-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Andrew MacLintock wrote:
> Obtrav:  All Marine Officers, in the entire force, attend one of the two or 
> three basic schools in the Imperium....

Is that realistic?  Given the cost of shipping a candidate across a
sector or two, I'd think the Imperium would prefer the expense of running
more schools so that one would be closer to home.
Great link, btw, though that's coming from someone who doesn't quite see
military service in his future.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420121558.A5360@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019491952.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Aha, so we have magically targeted changes in the rules of quantum
> > mechanics.
> 
> Yes, that's the one :)

Ok, just checking.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <20020422.091436.-170613.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:35:16 +1200 "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> > <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
> > >
> > > I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen 
> > > ? Drilling Platform?
> > > What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How 
> > > exactly would one> extract it from the subsurface? 
> > > Would there be any hazards?
> > 
> > One word - Praxis!
> 
> Um, sorry ?

Praxis - Klingon moon which blew up in ST-VI The Undiscovered Country.

Due to over mining, and poor safety prtocols.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019492558.5758.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
> "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:
> 
> > Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
> > eliminate poverty?
> 
> The government defines a poverty line.  People at and near that 
> point pay no income taxes.  Anyone with an income greater than 
> that pays a graduated tax, depending upon how far above it they 
> are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the 
> government (much like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any 
> money in) to give them money equal to being at the poverty line.  

Not quite; one idea behind negative income tax as I'm aware of it is that it's
supposed to eliminate the welfare effect where by getting a job, your income
doesn't improve.  Thus, if the poverty line is $10,000/year and you made less
than that, tax would be something like 50% of income - $5,000, so if you made
$2,000/year, your taxes would be -$4,000/year.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204221040090.12612-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019492780.113.ajackson@ping>

Gregory Carl Kettler writes:
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Andrew MacLintock wrote:
> > Obtrav:  All Marine Officers, in the entire force, attend one of the two
> > or  three basic schools in the Imperium....
> 
> Is that realistic? 

Sure.  It's a distributed school; you just have to realize that academy at
Regina and the academy at Dingir are the same school ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Frank Pitt wrote:

> Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> 
> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
> 
> Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
> <grin>
> 
I'd have to agree.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422085927.A5010@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220948240.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Rachel wrote:
>
> > His derisive tone, not the government's decision, was what irked me.
> 
> The derision was for the government's decision.

I thought so, too.  You don't get much more anti-homophobic than I am, but
I don't think being gay should get you money from the government.  
 
> Sheesh, I cannot believe I'm defending someone I've killfiled.

I hate it when that happens too, Robert.

Kiri :) 

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <OF5BF2A073.349D1856-ON85256BA3.005C2CDE@pheaa.org>





>> Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
>> > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
>>
>> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
>>
>> Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
>> <grin>
>>
>I'd have to agree.

Please forgive my stupidity but who or what is Shooter?







From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 11:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Mon Apr 22 10:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1ea22$d25c5a60$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Paul Walker
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 07:41
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] RAH and libertarianism

Although I (and probably many others) may want to
think and believe we would be in categories 1 or 2,
how many of us love our work, or feel compelled to
work enough that we could withstand the temptation to
be in category 3?  Not many, I would guess.

Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were
making an attempt at earning a living, and there is
your welfare bureaucracy.

Paul
------------------------------------------------------------

Put me in group 3.  Its not so much I hate working, its that nothing you
do nowadays makes any difference in your employment.  I've worked for
Kyocera, SHE, Hewlett-Packard, Agilent and AT&T and they are all the
same - use you until they no longer feel they need you, then dump you.

Yes, I am currently unemployed again.  AT&T a couple of years back was
worried that a rival ISP was coming in and they knew their customer
service sucked.  So they started hiring in-house technicians and toned
down their contractors.  Well Comcast basically merged with AT&T and
Time/Warner has no plans to compete here.

AT&T found itself sitting on a de facto monopoly, at least in the
Vancouver/Portland area, so they took it upon themselves to be rid of
their in-house employees and went back to the lack-luster contractors.
I and 15 of my co-workers found themselves not laid off but outright
fired for all sorts of stupid reasons.

I gave this company 110% like I always do as an employee, but here I am
again, unemployed.  There were days I started at 7am and got home after
midnight because I put the customers first and myself last.  Now I have
nothing to show for it.  HP and Agilent did similar things but at least
had the decency to lay us off.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do now with the job market so already
over-bloated with laid off workers.  I'm just tired of working for
companies that have absolutely no loyalty to their employees.

If anyone in the Portland/Vancouver area that is on this list hears
about any job that could use someone good with computers or telecom,
please email me off-list.

Thanks!

( j-man@attbi.com )






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 11:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr 22 10:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220948240.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <20020422085927.A5010@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422104155.009f3ec0@mindspring.com>

At 09:49 AM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:

>I thought so, too.  You don't get much more anti-homophobic than I am, but
>I don't think being gay should get you money from the government.

I don't know, the way some of the RR talks, we might be able to file for 
disability!

ObTrav: A world sees some common trait as being a horrible disadvantage 
(being left-handed, for ex) left handers are offered all sorts of 
government assistance, programs.. the good times end when the ship tries to 
leave.. the pilot is left-handed, and under law cannot operate the ship in 
the planet's airspace...

-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 12:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 22 11:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422104155.009f3ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDBDMAA.tml@downport.com>

You have that exactly backwards. The LL say it's physical, which might fall
under the ADA if you thinks it is handicapping you in some way. The RR (and
the Pope) say it is an act of the will, meaning sin.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
>
> I don't know, the way some of the RR talks, we might be able to file for
> disability!
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 13:42:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 12:42:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
References: <F262jQlc7vtdFq7ImxU00001228@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC46749.40007@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     Yet another example of typical Whipsnadian brain flatulence.  I ask 
> the kind folk of the TML to contact me off-List and then neglect to 
> provide the address.  Did I mention that my head comes to a point?
>     Thanks again for your help.

Uhhh...at least in _my_ mail client, Larsen's e-mail address

grote1731@hotmail.com

Is shown on each of his posts to the list...


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 13:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421173609.009ec3e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC468A1.8050409@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at the start of 
> the road march, how much will it weigh after 25 miles cross-country 
> through Korea in July?

Why the same as an unladen kitten perched on your chest, asleep.

5.67 tons. ;-)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
Message-ID: <200204222013.g3MKDLi02407@mailbag.com>

Hello all,

My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete the 
process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be spending the evening 
of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San Francisco. If there are any 
fellow Travellers who would care to get to gether with me that evening for beer 
and/or conversation, please let me know. 

Thanks!

William




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <DAV57DRtBBnmIahhPyO0001abc4@hotmail.com>

I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
before.

Gygax is very much to gaming as Kirby was to comics.


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV57DRtBBnmIahhPyO0001abc4@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_91614101==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
>growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
>before.

Mr. Weiss,

Without putting too fine a point on it, Mr. Gygax and TSR also ended up in 
litigation with Mr. Arneson about authorship and royalties about D&D - 
despite the fact that Arneson originated the concept and was listed as a 
co-author on the cover of the original game.  If that is "improving on what 
had come before" forgive me if I want to check to see if I have all my 
fingers when we're done shaking hands.

Even if you buy the argument that Gygax was somehow responsible for the 
"success" of D&D, you could build a case that TSR missed opportunity after 
opportunity to make it even bigger.  Or merely note the fact that the 
company was run into the ground, not once, but TWICE, despite their 
"success."  Add to that the antagonistic relationship that Gygax had with a 
great number of fans - many of whom are now successful game designers in 
their own right - and these conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)

To each their own, Mr. Weiss.

Victor Raymond


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_91614101==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I wasn't aware that Arneson made
D&amp;D a million dollar industry with still<br>
growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had
come<br>
before.</blockquote><br>
Mr. Weiss,<br><br>
Without putting too fine a point on it, Mr. Gygax and TSR also ended up
in litigation with Mr. Arneson about authorship and royalties about
D&amp;D - despite the fact that Arneson originated the concept and was
listed as a co-author on the cover of the original game.&nbsp; If that is
&quot;improving on what had come before&quot; forgive me if I want to
check to see if I have all my fingers when we're done shaking
hands.<br><br>
Even if you buy the argument that Gygax was somehow responsible for the
&quot;success&quot; of D&amp;D, you could build a case that TSR missed
opportunity after opportunity to make it even bigger.&nbsp; Or merely
note the fact that the company was run into the ground, not once, but
TWICE, despite their &quot;success.&quot;&nbsp; Add to that the
antagonistic relationship that Gygax had with a great number of fans -
many of whom are now successful game designers in their own right - and
these conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)<br><br>
To each their own, Mr. Weiss.<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_91614101==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422190106.A61D4279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote:

> --- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > End result: no one in the nation has an income that
> > is below the 
> > poverty line.  Also, the amount of taxes necessary
> > would not be 
> > that high, especially since the entire welfare
> > bureaucracy (which 
> > consumes a surprisingly high percentage of the money
> > allocated to 
> > this sector of the government) would be instantly
> > eliminated.
> 
> The only way I can see such a system working is if you
> ensure that those in the system are at least
> attempting to be employed.  That, then, requires that
> at least some of your welfare bureaucracy remain.  I'm
> not suggesting that our current system is better, just
> pointing out a possible problem.
> 
> Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is 10,000Cr. 
> If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away 10,000
> of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick.  In
> my mind, this situation would produce three types of
> people:

<snip> 

That would *only* be true if the median income was at the poverty 
line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.  The incentive to 
work would be have an income greater than the poverty line.  Most 
people want this and the percentage of people below the poverty 
line honestly isn't that high.  If the poverty live was 10,000 Cr, then 
someone earning 20,000 Cr would be far more likely to pay no 
more than 20% of their income in taxes, resulting in a net income 
of 16,000 Cr.  Assuming a wealth structure like that in the US, then 
if there was a reasonable tex system (ie one where the ultra-
wealthy could not use numerous loop holes to avoid paying any 
taxes) then that 20% could likely be reduced to 15% (for 20,000 
Cr), resulting in a net income of 17,000 Cr.  Those extra 6,000 or 
7,000 Cr can buy lots of nice things and many people will think 
them worth the effort.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019508300.7419.ajackson@ping>

For reference on negative income tax:

http://www.indiapolicy.org/lists/india_policy/2000/Jun/msg00007.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:48:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:48:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
Message-ID: <20020422.134355.-170613.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

William

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:13:20 GMT wlewis@mailbag.com writes:
> Hello all,
> 
> My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to
complete the process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be
spending the evening of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San
Francisco. If there are any  fellow Travellers who would care to get to
gether with me that evening for beer and/or conversation, please let me
know. 
> 
> Thanks!

Congrats!!!

I pray your journey be safe, productive, and fulfilling to you, your
wife, and especially your new baby boy.

My best to you all. The world would improve greatly if it followed your
example.

Chaplain Bari

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV84RtKdLWPo08EOTq0001acff@hotmail.com>

Mr. Raymond,

Without putting too fine a point on it either, you seem to be confusing a
number of business policies more properly attributed to other people at TSR,
who among other things wound up unsucessfully suing Mr. Gygax over the game
he created upon being forced out of TSR, with the actions of Mr. Gygax
himself.
You seem to wish to ignore that Mr. Arneson had nothing to do with
expansions of the game following the initial publication.
As for the running of the company into the ground, this very specifically
happened when people other than Mr. Gygax were running the company.
Concerning his antagonistic relationship with fans as well as game
designers, from what I've witnessed this is a combination of Mr. Gygax being
right about a number of things he said, and some rather intense jealously.
More than one would be fanboy or sycophant has tried sucking up and been
rebuffed for getting something wrong and subsequently become an ardent
internet defamer of Mr. Gygax and his works. As well, the professional
jealousy of game designers whose command of the English language resembles
that of a 3 year old when compared to Mr. Gygax, not to mention the truly
questionable quality of some of their designs, should be highly suspect to
anyone with a discerning eye.

Is Gary a perfect person, always polite, and always humble about his
accomplishments?
No.
Do I agree with everything he has ever said?
No.
Did he define multiple aspects of a hobby genre like Jack Kirby defined
comics?
Definitely.

To each their own indeed. And for me, that is the most definitely Gary
Gygax, whether he is sending me blistering flames or fullsome praises.


Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 01:32:49PM -0700
References: <20020422190106.A61D4279B9@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020422145517.A5794@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 01:32:49PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> That would *only* be true if the median income was at the poverty
> line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.  The incentive
> to work would be have an income greater than the poverty line.

I believe it was meant as a reductio ad absurdem.  That is, by making
x=100, it demonstrated the worst possible case.  Even if the tax rate
on earnings over the poverty line is only 1%, then for every $100 more
of work I put in I only get $99.  As the rate goes up, so does the
disincentive.  The practical effect is that less work gets done than
ideally should.

This is a problem with any tax, and is insurmountable.  There are
other, worse problems with no taxes.

> If the poverty live was 10,000 Cr, then someone earning 20,000 Cr
> would be far more likely to pay no more than 20% of their income in
> taxes, resulting in a net income of 16,000 Cr.

A net income of 16,000 Cr for 20,000 Cr worth of work.

> Those extra 6,000 or 7,000 Cr can buy lots of nice things and many
> people will think them worth the effort.

But is it worth 10,000 Cr worth of work for 6,000 Cr worth of credits?

I'm not anti-taxes; they're a necessary evil.  But it's important to
realise the very bad efects taxation has on an economy.  Ideally
taxation (and therefore, the public sector) would be limited to a few
percent of GDP, so as to minimise the deleterious economic effects
thereof.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A person who's interested only in books doesn't need other people...
                           --Arturo Perez-Reverte, The Club Dumas

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:00:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:00:24 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <3CC478B9.9010306@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Victor Jason Raymond wrote:
> At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
> 
>> I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
>> growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
>> before.

snip


> Add to that the antagonistic relationship that Gygax had 
> with a great number of fans - many of whom are now successful game 
> designers in their own right - and these conclusions look pretty dice-y. 
> (so to speak)

Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on this) 
  had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
role-playing industry.

Very likely there would have been no card came industry ("Magic-the 
gathering of spare cash", etc)

It was a runaway success that paved the way for everything else since, 
TSR mis-steps or not.

(Yes, I know it's runaway success was proof there was a huge untapped 
market for it out there, but that is the nature of runaway 
successes....'Trivial Pursuit' was also a runaway success, despite a 
host of similar games like it on the market in the past that didn't take 
off.)

I myself was introduced to Traveller as '...like D&D, only SF, with 
starships and fusion guns...'

Like it or not, the *one* thing that springs to the average person's 
mind when they heard the term 'role playing game' is D&D.

Well, that and '..sallow, spindly geek with no life..', but I digress...

(and I'm not sallow, and (alas) long passed the 'spindly' stage...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
References: <200204222013.g3MKDLi02407@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <3CC479F7.6090906@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

wlewis@mailbag.com wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete the 
> process to adopt a baby boy. 

Congratulations!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <3CC478B9.9010306@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

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At 01:55 PM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Victor Jason Raymond wrote:
>>At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>>I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
>>>growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
>>>before.
>
>snip
>
>
>>Add to that the antagonistic relationship that Gygax had with a great 
>>number of fans - many of whom are now successful game designers in their 
>>own right - and these conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)
>
>Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on 
>this)  had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
>role-playing industry.

<nods>

Dear Bruce (and an aside to Mr. Weiss),

I would definitely agree with you about this.  My point is that if you 
should praise Gygax, you ought to also praise David L. Arneson, as well - 
it's only fair.  Gygax wouldn't have had D&D if Arneson had not started 
doing Blackmoor.  And there is a fair bit to point out that isn't so 
praiseworthy.

Victor


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

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<html>
At 01:55 PM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Victor Jason Raymond wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you
wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I wasn't aware that Arneson made
D&amp;D a million dollar industry with still<br>
growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had
come<br>
before.</blockquote></blockquote><br>
snip<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Add to that the antagonistic
relationship that Gygax had with a great number of fans - many of whom
are now successful game designers in their own right - and these
conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)</blockquote><br>
Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on
this)&nbsp; had there been no D&amp;D, there very likely would have been
*no* role-playing industry.</blockquote><br>
&lt;nods&gt;<br><br>
Dear Bruce (and an aside to Mr. Weiss),<br><br>
I would definitely agree with you about this.&nbsp; My point is that if
you should praise Gygax, you ought to also praise David L. Arneson, as
well - it's only fair.&nbsp; Gygax wouldn't have had D&amp;D if Arneson
had not started doing Blackmoor.&nbsp; And there is a fair bit to point
out that isn't so praiseworthy.<br><br>
Victor<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:20:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:20:29 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <200204222116.ETY00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip Gygax stuff>

Well, the basic lesson that I see in the whole Gygax thing
is never, ever run a company and staff it with your friends.  
I did that with my own software startup, and it was the worst 
mistake I ever made in my life.

Either that, or I'm not a very good judge of character.  But 
to be on the safe side, don't make your friends your business 
partners.

Greed is a curious thing, and most people are not as immune 
to it as they might imagine.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV84RtKdLWPo08EOTq0001acff@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161637.04bc1d60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

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At 04:53 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Mr. Raymond,
>
>Without putting too fine a point on it either, you seem to be confusing a
>number of business policies more properly attributed to other people at TSR,
>who among other things wound up unsucessfully suing Mr. Gygax over the game
>he created upon being forced out of TSR, with the actions of Mr. Gygax
>himself.

Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the 
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.  Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR when Mr. 
Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and co-authorship.

>You seem to wish to ignore that Mr. Arneson had nothing to do with
>expansions of the game following the initial publication.

Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and co-authorship.  TSR 
and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.

>As for the running of the company into the ground, this very specifically
>happened when people other than Mr. Gygax were running the company.

I will grant you that.  The Blume Brothers did not exactly paint themselves 
in glory.

>Concerning his antagonistic relationship with fans as well as game
>designers, from what I've witnessed this is a combination of Mr. Gygax being
>right about a number of things he said, and some rather intense jealously.

Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with 
a straight face.

>More than one would be fanboy or sycophant has tried sucking up and been
>rebuffed for getting something wrong and subsequently become an ardent
>internet defamer of Mr. Gygax and his works.

Not the people I am referring to.  Do keep in mind the dispute between TSR 
and Chaosium regarding the Lovecraftian Mythos, etc. (which involved the 
Lovecraft estate and Mr. Moorcock's solicitors), just as an example of 
something other than your generalization.

>As well, the professional
>jealousy of game designers whose command of the English language resembles
>that of a 3 year old when compared to Mr. Gygax, not to mention the truly
>questionable quality of some of their designs, should be highly suspect to
>anyone with a discerning eye.

Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?


>Is Gary a perfect person, always polite, and always humble about his
>accomplishments?
>No.
>Do I agree with everything he has ever said?
>No.
>Did he define multiple aspects of a hobby genre like Jack Kirby defined
>comics?
>Definitely.

And this is where we must part company.

Cheers!

Victor Raymond


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

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<html>
At 04:53 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Mr. Raymond,<br><br>
Without putting too fine a point on it either, you seem to be confusing
a<br>
number of business policies more properly attributed to other people at
TSR,<br>
who among other things wound up unsucessfully suing Mr. Gygax over the
game<br>
he created upon being forced out of TSR, with the actions of Mr.
Gygax<br>
himself.</blockquote><br>
Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.&nbsp; Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR
when Mr. Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and
co-authorship.&nbsp; <br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>You seem to wish to ignore that Mr.
Arneson had nothing to do with<br>
expansions of the game following the initial
publication.</blockquote><br>
Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and
co-authorship.&nbsp; TSR and Arneson settled out of court for a
considerable sum.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As for the running of the company
into the ground, this very specifically<br>
happened when people other than Mr. Gygax were running the
company.</blockquote><br>
I will grant you that.&nbsp; The Blume Brothers did not exactly paint
themselves in glory.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Concerning his antagonistic
relationship with fans as well as game<br>
designers, from what I've witnessed this is a combination of Mr. Gygax
being<br>
right about a number of things he said, and some rather intense
jealously.</blockquote><br>
Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again
with a straight face.&nbsp; <br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>More than one would be fanboy or
sycophant has tried sucking up and been<br>
rebuffed for getting something wrong and subsequently become an
ardent<br>
internet defamer of Mr. Gygax and his works.</blockquote><br>
Not the people I am referring to.&nbsp; Do keep in mind the dispute
between TSR and Chaosium regarding the Lovecraftian Mythos, etc. (which
involved the Lovecraft estate and Mr. Moorcock's solicitors), just as an
example of something other than your generalization.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As well, the professional<br>
jealousy of game designers whose command of the English language
resembles<br>
that of a 3 year old when compared to Mr. Gygax, not to mention the
truly<br>
questionable quality of some of their designs, should be highly suspect
to<br>
anyone with a discerning eye.</blockquote><br>
Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Is Gary a perfect person, always
polite, and always humble about his<br>
accomplishments?<br>
No.<br>
Do I agree with everything he has ever said?<br>
No.<br>
Did he define multiple aspects of a hobby genre like Jack Kirby
defined<br>
comics?<br>
Definitely.</blockquote><br>
And this is where we must part company.<br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Neural Guns
Message-ID: <2237.1019490155@www44.gmx.net>

Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen,

I've got questions regarding Neural Weaponry.

All my knowledge is based on the few lines of Weapons Description and the
two inserts into the Weapons Price Table in the Imperial Encyclopedia/MT.

The Stats I could work out are...
Neural Pistol-16
no AmmoNotes, ? Rds, Pen/Att 10/-, special (but known) Dmg, MaxRange Long,
no AutofireTargets, no DangerSpace, Low Signature, Low Recoil, Difficulty as
Handgun
Neural Rifle-16
no AmmoNotes, ? Rds, Pen/Att 10/-, special (but known) Dmg, MaxRange Long,
no AutofireTargets, no Danger Space, LowSignature, Low Recoil, Difficulty as
Rifle
...just to show, that I thought before consulting TML

So now :

Are there any 'official' stats/rules regarding neural guns (probably hidden
in some secret supplement I don't know - there are many of these)?

My problem lies in (s.a.) ? Rds - How much ammunition does a neural pistol
or rifle pack? I think it would need a power pack, as energy weapons, which
would correspond roughly with the ammunition price and weight stated in the
weapons price table(?) How many shots per pack? Are there integral (or only
integral) versions, and how much shots would these have?

I'd be glad, if you shared your knowledge or opinion,
bye, Sebastian

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:31:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:31:38 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <200204222116.ETY00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422162357.04be58d0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

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At 05:16 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
><snip Gygax stuff>
>
>Well, the basic lesson that I see in the whole Gygax thing
>is never, ever run a company and staff it with your friends.

Very very very true.  One thing that a friend who grew up in Lake Geneva 
once told me was that Don Kay (the "K" in the original "G/K" logo for TSR) 
was the only fellow that Mr. Gygax would listen to back then, in the case 
of disputes.  Kay died rather suddenly (see his obit in Strategic Review 
#2) - it would have been very very interesting to see how things might have 
turned out had he lived.

>
>I did that with my own software startup, and it was the worst
>mistake I ever made in my life.
>
>Either that, or I'm not a very good judge of character.  But
>to be on the safe side, don't make your friends your business
>partners.

Good advice.

There's gotta be an ObTrav for this - perhaps never hire your friends as 
crew for your Free Trader?  (But that would undermine most parties of 
adventurers!  Or is this merely an observation that the sorts of trouble 
the average group gets into is merely to be expected?  Oh, the 
possibilities....:))

Victor

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

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<html>
At 05:16 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&lt;snip Gygax stuff&gt;<br><br>
Well, the basic lesson that I see in the whole Gygax thing<br>
is never, ever run a company and staff it with your friends.
</blockquote><br>
Very very very true.&nbsp; One thing that a friend who grew up in Lake
Geneva once told me was that Don Kay (the &quot;K&quot; in the original
&quot;G/K&quot; logo for TSR) was the only fellow that Mr. Gygax would
listen to back then, in the case of disputes.&nbsp; Kay died rather
suddenly (see his obit in Strategic Review #2) - it would have been very
very interesting to see how things might have turned out had he
lived.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&nbsp;<br>
I did that with my own software startup, and it was the worst <br>
mistake I ever made in my life.<br><br>
Either that, or I'm not a very good judge of character.&nbsp; But <br>
to be on the safe side, don't make your friends your business <br>
partners.</blockquote><br>
Good advice.<br><br>
There's gotta be an ObTrav for this - perhaps never hire your friends as
crew for your Free Trader?&nbsp; (But that would undermine most parties
of adventurers!&nbsp; Or is this merely an observation that the sorts of
trouble the average group gets into is merely to be expected?&nbsp; Oh,
the possibilities....:))<br><br>
Victor<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:34:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:34:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
> 1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
> (b) working because they are not concerned with the money aspect of
> the work, but are motivated by something else entirely.

Put me down as a 1b, shifting very rapidly into 3 due to my employer's
incompetence.


> 3.  Loafers (Very Large Majority)
>      These people realize that no matter how much (or how little)
> they work, they will get at least enough money to subsist

... true already in many countries ...


> and if they earn more, the government is likely to take it all from
> them.

More true under the current system (at least in Aus) than under the
proposed one.  Under the proposed system, if you work more you *will*
earn more, as opposed to Australia's current system where you can
often earn less.  Still, even Australia has unemployment less than
10%, most of it transient.  High, but hardly the "Very Large
Majority".


> Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were making an
> attempt at earning a living,

The fact that you get to increase your income substantially if you
work is reason enough.  As Mr. Uhl points out, you won't keep 100% of
your income, which is true for any government that imposes taxation.
It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
some part-time workers.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
In-Reply-To: <200204222013.g3MKDLi02407@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422144908.009e84c0@mindspring.com>

At 08:13 PM 4/22/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete 
>the
>process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be spending the evening
>of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San Francisco. If there are any
>fellow Travellers who would care to get to gether with me that evening for 
>beer
>and/or conversation, please let me know.

There are a few of us about..

Contact me by personal email and we'll work something out.  I'll forward 
this to the Traveller in SF list.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

>> and if they earn more, the government is likely to take it all from
>> them.
>
>More true under the current system (at least in Aus) than under the
>proposed one.  Under the proposed system, if you work more you *will*
>earn more, as opposed to Australia's current system where you can
>often earn less.  Still, even Australia has unemployment less than
>10%, most of it transient.  High, but hardly the "Very Large
>Majority".

But that is 10% of the working population. Add in people on disability
and women who stay home taking care of kids (which is a full-time job,
but means that they have to be supported form somewhere) and the
unemployed suddenly rises dramatically. In Norway for example we
have almost 1 million people (out of 4.5 million population) on
disability (full time and part time). And that is what is breaking
our backs. Most of those people would be able to work full time
but since they can get away with a check from the state due to
disability......

>> Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were making an
>> attempt at earning a living,
>
>The fact that you get to increase your income substantially if you
>work is reason enough.  As Mr. Uhl points out, you won't keep 100% of
>your income, which is true for any government that imposes taxation.
>It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
>some part-time workers.

True, so true. But the wierd thing is that those people have to get
that money back from the state somehow, as social security or what ever
to survive. It's the state taking money and then giving it back again!

Tommy Grav


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <20020422.182803.-145167.1.Knightsky@juno.com>


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Kiri Aradia Morgan
<tiamat@tsoft.com> writes:
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Frank Pitt wrote:
> 
> > Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> > > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> > 
> > Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
> > 
> > Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
> > <grin>
> > 
> I'd have to agree.

Seconded.

                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:36:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:36:46 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <20020422.182803.-145167.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:50:37 -0400 "William Lane" <wlane@aessuccess.org>
writes:
> 
> >> Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> >> > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> >>
> >> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
> >>
> >> Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
> >> <grin>
> >>
> >I'd have to agree.
> 
> Please forgive my stupidity but who or what is Shooter?

Jim Shooter, editor-in-chief of Marvel Comics during the late 70s & early
80's.  Not without his virtues and talents, he is nonetheless known for
his heavy-handed, sledgehammer approach to acting as editor, and has
managed to alienate to this day many of the creative people in the comics
industry. 



                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"







________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:39:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:39:37 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on 
> this) had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
> role-playing industry.

I'm not certain I agree with this.  I've seen different accounts of
various proto-RPGs pre-1973 (and unfortunately, no, I don't have sources
to quote at the moment - sorry); the idea for a RPG did not spring solely
from Arnenson and Gygax... they were simply the first to *market* the
idea. 

I believe that RPGs *would* have eventually been published by other
people even if D&D had never existed, they would have simply appeared a
few years later.  And... if D&D had not been the first, then perhaps the
rest of the industry would not have needed to spend so much effort the
last 3 decades trying desperately to get away from the various clunky
aspects of D&D that Gygax pushed as being "the one true way" of
roleplaying...

> Very likely there would have been no card came industry ("Magic-the 
> gathering of spare cash", etc)

And this is a bad thing HOW...?  ;-)


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:52:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:52:11 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204221544240.16983-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 knightsky@juno.com wrote:

> > Very likely there would have been no card came industry ("Magic-the 
> > gathering of spare cash", etc)
> 
> And this is a bad thing HOW...?  ;-)

Well, the introduction of those awful CCG's freed up a lot of my evenings,
(because my gaming group turned into Magic zombies) and I got married
shortly after that...

yeah, right.

Nuke 'em.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:56:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:56:07 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <200204222116.ETY00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204221546070.16983-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Greed is a curious thing, and most people are not as immune 
> to it as they might imagine.

No, they aren't, and all kinds of human emotions that don't obviously have
any connection to the issue are tied up in money and business.  Doing
business together will either solidify or completely destroy a family, a
friendship, a marriage, or a lovers' bond.  It is like sleeping with your
best friend after 10+ years of platonic friendship; the reward if you
succeed and it all works out is truly wonderful, but the risk is your
heart and your spirit, and braver souls than me or thee have declined to
take it.

Kiri ^_^ (who worked on a small press magazine with two men, best friends
who are still best friends-- one of whom is now her ex-fiance and the
other her ex-husband, and still adores them both-- from the other side of
the continent.)

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>
References: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net> <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <20020423090608.A5160@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tim wrote:
[...regarding "group 3"...]
> > Still, even Australia has unemployment less than 10%, most of it
> >transient.  High, but hardly the "Very Large Majority".

Tommy Grav wrote:
> But that is 10% of the working population. Add in people on
> disability

... who are already being paid for by the government anyway, so no
extra cost there, and most of whom wouldn't be able to work if they
wanted to.  Hence the majority of them are not in group 3.


> and women who stay home taking care of kids

At the moment, they're already surviving.  Either by husbands (who
hence have a lower disposable income) or by the government.  Either
way, they're already accounted for.  They are also certainly not in
group 3!


> >It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
> >some part-time workers.
> 
> True, so true. But the wierd thing is that those people have to get
> that money back from the state somehow,

No, they don't.  That's the point; it's the ones who don't work at all
who get the money from the state.  I'll give an example:

An unemployed person (e.g, me) got about A$170/week in direct cash
benefits, about $40/week in rent assistance, paid 50% less for public
transport, up to 90% less on medicines, and further 10-50% concessions
on a range of things as diverse as internet access, movie tickets,
house insurance, power, and telephone bills.  His net income was $210
per week.  (If this person had a child, he/she would get the full
child care subsidy, quite a substantial amount.  But I'm not
personally familiar with exactly how much so I'll leave it out).

Suppose he works part time.  His employment income is say A$300 per
week, but the government takes income taxes of about $50/week from
that.  He no longer receives unemployment benefits, rent assistance,
and would receive greatly reduced child care allowance (again, leaving
it out due to lack of personal experience).  He pays full price for
public transport, various utility bills, medical expenses, and other
things adding up to about $70/week.  He no longer receives any rent
assistance.  After living expenses, his net income has dropped by $30
compared with unemployment.

So for $300 worth of work (about 15-20 hours), he nets $30 *less* than
if he was unemployed, thus keeping -10% of the wages from his extra
effort.  That's still enough to survive on, but *extremely*
discouraging.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 17:19:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:19:40 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CC499EA.1020901@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>>Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on 
>>this) had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
>>role-playing industry.
> 
> 
> I'm not certain I agree with this.  I've seen different accounts of
> various proto-RPGs pre-1973 (and unfortunately, no, I don't have sources
> to quote at the moment - sorry); the idea for a RPG did not spring solely
> from Arnenson and Gygax... they were simply the first to *market* the
> idea. 

I never said they were the only source, merely the first _wildly 
successful_ one. Quality is no guarantee of success, witness MS Windows 
and AOL.

Neither of them were the first in their genre, nor even the best, but 
there is little doubt that they are the 800 pound gorillas of the market.

D&D may not have been pure in a mechanical sense, but like BASIC, and 
'You have SPAM!' it is now the de-facto standard of comparison..the 
reason it got there is because it was 'the fustest with the mostest'.

(says an old-timer who remembers back when 'September on the Net' 
actually meant that it was, indeed, September...ahh those halcyon 
pre-AOL, pre-Prodigy, pre-Compuserv days...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 17:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Product Announcement
Message-ID: <016701c1ea59$53179d50$969393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0162_01C1EA61.9C2DD060
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Just a quick note to inform the Traveller community that we (Quiklink =
Interactive) will be putting the first "LBB PDF" up for sale in a few =
days.

This will be "Traveller's Aide #1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space"

Designed specifically for use with CT and T20, most of the information =
within is compatible with any version of Traveller; stats can be =
converted from CT to other rules sets as necessary.

Contents include:

- Extra combat rules
- Details of weapon scanner technologies and how to beat them
- A selection of large and small arms firms within the Imperium
- Some unique or special weapons
- The Imperial Weapons Permit System,=20
- A comprehensive guide to smallarms and melee weapons, with compiled CT =
and T20 data tables for all the weapons listed.

More news is available on the Quiklink website: =
http://www.travellerrpg.com/


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses

------=_NextPart_000_0162_01C1EA61.9C2DD060
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just&nbsp;a quick note to inform the =
Traveller=20
community that we (Quiklink Interactive) will be putting the first "LBB =
PDF" up=20
for sale in a few days.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This will be "Traveller's Aide #1: =
Personal Weapons=20
of Charted Space"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Designed specifically for use with CT =
and T20, most=20
of the information within is compatible with any version of Traveller; =
stats can=20
be converted from CT to other rules sets as necessary.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Contents include:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Extra combat rules</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Details of weapon scanner =
technologies and how to=20
beat them</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- A selection of large and small arms =
firms within=20
the Imperium</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Some unique or special =
weapons</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- The Imperial Weapons Permit System, =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-&nbsp;A comprehensive guide to =
smallarms and melee=20
weapons, with compiled CT and T20 data tables for all the weapons=20
listed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>More news is available on the Quiklink =
website: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.travellerrpg.com/">http://www.travellerrpg.com/</A></F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0162_01C1EA61.9C2DD060--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:06:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:06:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Neural Guns
References: <20020422220007.4ED0F279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC4A483.8DEF4B63@earthlink.net>

S.Feige

> Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
> I've got questions regarding Neural Weaponry.
> 
> All my knowledge is based on the few lines of Weapons Description and the
> two inserts into the Weapons Price Table in the Imperial Encyclopedia/MT.
> 
> The Stats I could work out are...

Even though someone's probably already answered your questions, I
thought I'd post anyway. Apologies for any waste of bandwidth.

Challenge #46 has them worked up in detail for MT. The specs are:

Neural weapons have 2 settings: stun and kill.

Stun will inflict as many damage points as necessary to render
the target unconscious, up to the weapon's limit.

Kill inflicts the full damage pont capability, whatever the
target's condition.

Should a mishap occur (marginal success), roll 2D on the Mishap
Table. Whether the damage modifier is added or subtracted can
be determined randomly or using Murphy's Law. If the intention
was to stun, increase damage; if the intention was to kill,
decrease damage.

TL   Type           Psi-Pen   DMs             Dam   Difficulty
---------------------------------------------------------------
16   Neural Rifle     10      As direct fire   7    Rifle
16   Neural Pistol    10      As direct fire   5    Handgun


David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
References: <20020422190106.A61D4279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002601c1ea5d$32d89f40$d3b18b90@computer>

> From: Steven Hudson
>   Given the role of the army in political strife in the later Empire,
> maybe the empire would have functioned better without any of those
> classes in the legions :|

Look how well it worked when they replaced them with barbarians.  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <200204221459.g3MExjP00155@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3CC55510.8412.A77E03@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002 at 7:58, Steven Hudson wrote:
>   That's why I went with "arguably" - it can be presented either way,
> with the big issue being whether some of those positions (eg, a Roman
> centurion) were officers or NCO's. By the social standards of the
> non-professionals in command (& staff) at Legion level they were only
> commoners for almost all purposes, but the Legion could sooner function
> without any of those patricians or equites than it could with even half
> of the centurionate absent.
> 
>   Given the role of the army in political strife in the later Empire,
> maybe the empire would have functioned better without any of those
> classes in the legions :|

Well the importance of even centurions in much of that strife argues 
for them being considered officers - very few coups in the modern world 
are started and managed by sergeants.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:38:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:38:29 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC55510.9619.A77EB7@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 7:29, Timothy Little wrote:

> The fact that you get to increase your income substantially if you
> work is reason enough.  As Mr. Uhl points out, you won't keep 100% of
> your income, which is true for any government that imposes taxation.
> It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
> some part-time workers.

Doesn't quite happen in NZ, but even ignoring GST (being a sales tax 
it's relatively invisible most of the time) the effective tax rate for 
being a low-income part-time worker can be up around 85%.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:41:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:41:12 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002 at 7:41, Paul Walker wrote:
> Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is 10,000Cr. 
> If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away 10,000
> of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick.  In
> my mind, this situation would produce three types of
> people:

You're assuming that 50% of the population does no work, here.
 
> 1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
>      These people continue to earn as much as they
> can, either (a) hoping that maybe the government will
> not need all of it to pay for those not at poverty
> level and that they will get to keep the extra
> (doubtful) or (b) working because they are not
> concerned with the money aspect of the work, but are
> motivated by something else entirely.

Why is it doubtful?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423090608.A5160@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <3CC55776.26351.B0DA34@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 9:06, Timothy Little wrote:
> An unemployed person (e.g, me) got about A$170/week in direct cash
> benefits, about $40/week in rent assistance, paid 50% less for public
> transport, up to 90% less on medicines, and further 10-50% concessions
> on a range of things as diverse as internet access, movie tickets,
> house insurance, power, and telephone bills.  His net income was $210
> per week.  (If this person had a child, he/she would get the full
> child care subsidy, quite a substantial amount.  But I'm not
> personally familiar with exactly how much so I'll leave it out).

Now I know why New Zealanders were so keen on going to Aussie to loaf 
round on the dole and surf (or so the Aussie government would like 
everyone to think). Here the base rate for an over 25 is (IIRC) NZ$157 
per week, rent support of about 1/3 of your rent. There's also 
considerable subsidy on your medicines (over and above what everyone 
gets), and some on public transport, but that's about it.
 
> Suppose he works part time.  His employment income is say A$300 per
> week, but the government takes income taxes of about $50/week from
> that.  He no longer receives unemployment benefits, rent assistance,
> and would receive greatly reduced child care allowance (again, leaving
> it out due to lack of personal experience).  He pays full price for
> public transport, various utility bills, medical expenses, and other
> things adding up to about $70/week.  He no longer receives any rent
> assistance.  After living expenses, his net income has dropped by $30
> compared with unemployment.
> 
> So for $300 worth of work (about 15-20 hours), he nets $30 *less* than
> if he was unemployed, thus keeping -10% of the wages from his extra
> effort.  That's still enough to survive on, but *extremely*
> discouraging.

We just have a (low) point after which you lose 70% of your dole for 
each dollar (gross) that you earn. You also lose the rent assistance at 
a smaller rate at the same time, and IIRC that starts as soon as you 
earn any money. The only reason this doesn't give an effective rate of 
over 100% is that the rent assistance is usually all gone by the time 
the reduction in the dole starts. Still working on a minimum wage job 
for an in-the-hand hourly rate of about NZ$1.00 - 1.50 isn't very 
encouraging.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Product Announcement
In-Reply-To: <016701c1ea59$53179d50$969393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <016701c1ea59$53179d50$969393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <200204222051330083.CE6F127D@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 4/23/2002 at 12:55 AM MJ Dougherty wrote:

>Just a quick note to inform the Traveller community that we (Quiklink=
 Interactive) will be putting the first "LBB PDF" up for sale in a few=
 days.
>
>This will be "Traveller's Aide #1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space"
>
>Designed specifically for use with CT and T20, most of the information=
 within is compatible with any version of Traveller; stats can be converted=
 from CT to other rules sets as necessary.

For those interested, I have just put up a preliminary webpage for this=
 product with a small sample of 3 pages (and the cover)

http://www.TravellerRPG.com/PDF/ta0001.html

As Martin noted, this PDF should be available for purchase within the next=
 2-3 days

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020423005500.10756.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 03:35 PM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Pilots are officers because the military does not
> >want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> >flying a $30 million airplane when it
> crashed.....even
> >though the average fighter jock is holding
> essentially
> >the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
> >arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
> >that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
> >wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
> >why........
> 
> That being said, during WWII the Germans used
> enlisted pilots, as did the 
> RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying
> sergeants, since they thought 
> there was no reason to tie up perfectly good
> officers in what was 
> essentially a technical skill.  That died as
> carriers came to the fore, and 
> more Marines came to be stationed on ships. Many of
> the old Flying 
> Sergeants received reserve commissions as officers,
> while retaining their 
> permanent rank as enlisted men.
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       
>
  >>
  ...My point....MAC
  >>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:59:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:59:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <008201c1e814$658fd700$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020423005823.20768.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > From: Michael Cessna
> >   Pilots are officers because the military does
> not
> > want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> > flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....
> 
> No.  The 'pilots are officers' thing dates all the
> way back to the
> beginnings of military aviation.
> 
> The logic, presumably, was that a pilot was a
> gentleman and an educated
> professional, of a higher social class to the mere
> tradesmen and mechanics
> that worked on the ground.
> 
> There have been exceptions - "Flight Sergeants"
> occasionally served as
> pilots in WWII.
> 
> Winston Churchill's comments on Naval Tradition
> apply to the traditions of
> other services too, to a considerable extent.  Don't
> try to find present day
> logic in them.
> 
> Alan Bradley
> 
  >>
  Actually, it dates from almost the beginning of
Marine Aviation. While the first Marine (and Naval)
Aviator was an officer, he was quickly followed in
Central American service, by enlisted pilots. This
tradition, although frowned upon by the Navy,
continued until just after the end of WW2.

   MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] officer selection traits
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020422200846.039e5b10@pop.wizard.net>

Hey!  Thanks for posting that link earlier to the Inc. magazine article 
about what the USMC looks for in officer selection.  The Robert E. Lee they 
talk about used to be my OIC fifteen years ago or so.  He was a major then 
and I was a corporal.  He is one of the finest officers I'll ever have the 
honor to meet.  (My father, both my grandfathers, my uncles, and lots of 
other blood relations were career officers themselves, so that was not an 
idle compliment.)  Yeah, I'm sure Bob Lee had leadership traits, judgment, 
and management ability in spades even back when he was a boot lieutenant 
barely old enough to shave.

I still remember him describing that assignment aboard that freighter full 
of refugees and adrift in the Phillipine Sea in 1975.  It was classified 
for a long time, but eventually it was declassified and eventually after 
that someone persuaded him to write it up for the Marine Corps 
Gazette.  Bob Lee was never a self promoter, the description you read in 
the Inc magazine article is very, very toned down from what happened.  The 
Gazette article has some of the more gut wrenching stuff left out, too.

I've used that incident and Bob Lee more than once in my own gaming.  It's 
the stuff of high adventure.

The only reason I've ever been able to find for having the incident 
classified was to avoid political embarrassment.  Reasons of national 
defense really didn't apply.  If you want to research the Marine Corps 
Gazette article that Bob Lee wrote about it, search for an article written 
by Robert E. Lee (I believe major at the time) published in the late 
1980s.  I recommend it as a small Traveller adventure.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <200204230113.EUF04788@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Kiri Aradia Morgan says
>Kiri ^_^ (who worked on a small press magazine with two men, 
>best friends who are still best friends-- one of whom is now 
>her ex-fiance and the other her ex-husband, and still adores 
>them both-- from the other side of the continent.)
>

Ah, I know that one.  My ex-wife, on very hot summer days, 
would say, "I love you from over here."
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV66kY7QNSljIazjBl0001b1b6@hotmail.com>

Victor Raymond wrote,

>I would definitely agree with you about this.  My point is that if you
should praise Gygax, you ought to also praise David L. Arneson, as well -
it's only fair.  Gygax wouldn't have had D&D if Arneson had not started
doing Blackmoor.  And there is a fair bit to point out that isn't so
praiseworthy.<

Then the complaint should be that the quote should read "Gygax and Arneson
are to gaming what Kirby and Lee were to comics", not that the half
presented is someone false.

>Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.  Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR when Mr.
Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and co-authorship.<
and,
>Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and co-authorship.  TSR
and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.<

Not according to what I've heard.
Which is that Arneson wished no part in developing the game into what became
AD&D. Thus the desire to not continue paying royalties when he was doing no
work.
While there is likely more to it than that, the point is there may be
another view.

>I will grant you that.  The Blume Brothers did not exactly paint themselves
in glory.<

And don't forget Lorraine Williams.

>Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with
a straight face. <

If you mean "Chess, Poker, and the AD&D game system", then I not only say
that with a straight face, I submit it as proof of my position.
The simple fact is, however poorly it may have been stated or received, Gary
was absolutely right. The proof of that is in the development of the RPGA
and the Living City Campaign, which required a single, standard set of
rules, with little to no variation, in order to organize and manage a
national campaign.
The only problem with what Gary said was there was no organization to make
what he said stick.

>Not the people I am referring to.  Do keep in mind the dispute between TSR
and Chaosium regarding the Lovecraftian Mythos, etc. (which involved the
Lovecraft estate and Mr. Moorcock's solicitors), just as an example of
something other than your generalization.<

I am aware of that.
Are you aware that Gary contacted Chaosium and negotiated a mutual promotion
to resolve the matter but the Blumes squashed the deal because they didn't
want to give any support to anyone else?

>Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?<

Is that really necessary?

I wish to refute various assertions as to the failures of Gary Gygax that
are, quite simply tainted by a less than positive view of the individual. If
we are to judge by that standard, then I don't think anyone will survive.
Whatever Gary's failings as an individual might be, they most certainly do
not detract from his accomplishments as a game designer.
Further, when that is what people use to diminish those accomplishments, it
does, to me, speak more of their failings than the person they are seeking
to tear down.


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <200204230113.EUF04788@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204221831540.3200-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Kiri Aradia Morgan says
> >Kiri ^_^ (who worked on a small press magazine with two men, 
> >best friends who are still best friends-- one of whom is now 
> >her ex-fiance and the other her ex-husband, and still adores 
> >them both-- from the other side of the continent.)
> >
> 
> Ah, I know that one.  My ex-wife, on very hot summer days, 
> would say, "I love you from over here."

:)

ikaros is one of my dearest friends in the world, actually.  But turns out
he's gay, not bi, so the marriage didn't quite work out like we thought it
would.

The Vanguard years were "...the best of times, the worst of times..." in
spades.  We really found out who our friends actually were.

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <f9.1b1126af.29f61465@aol.com>

As it happens, I am quite good friends with both Gary Gygax, and Dave 
Arneson, and I am better acquainted than most with their contributions to the 
hobby. I am the better for knowing them, and for having worked with both of 
them.

They are happy to share the title: "Co-creators of Roleplaying" and with good 
reason, because they invented it. Much like Gilbert and Sullivan, they have 
their mutual antagonisms, but for the time they worked together, they 
invented the industry by which I now make a living. Something like 
roleplaying might have come about without them, because others were thinking 
along the same lines at about the same time, but they made it happen. 
Traveller would not exist without them. I'd be a game publisher, but it would 
be a radically altered industry, primarily board wargames and miniatures 
rules . . . 

Both Gary and Dave admit they missed opportunities. Who of us hasn't? 
However, I am not willing to press "reset" and eliminate one or the other of 
their contributions just to see what would happen. THings could have turned 
out a LOT worse.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Traveler Ring
In-Reply-To: <3CC4A483.8DEF4B63@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001e01c1ea6a$29c788a0$2f7de40c@loki>

This is the ever occasional and irregular annoyance declaring the
existence of the...

Traveller Web Ring
http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=traveller;action=info

If you have a Traveller web site come on board and we'll spread the
community.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019492558.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20422.181710.3T8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
>> "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
>> > eliminate poverty?
>> 
>> The government defines a poverty line.  People at and near that 
>> point pay no income taxes.  Anyone with an income greater than 
>> that pays a graduated tax, depending upon how far above it they 
>> are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the 
>> government (much like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any 
>> money in) to give them money equal to being at the poverty line.  
>
> Not quite; one idea behind negative income tax as I'm aware of it is that 
> it's
> supposed to eliminate the welfare effect where by getting a job, your income
> doesn't improve.  Thus, if the poverty line is $10,000/year and you made less
> than that, tax would be something like 50% of income - $5,000, so if you made
> $2,000/year, your taxes would be -$4,000/year.

The version I recall being interested in was one that included a flat
rate tax.

So say the "poverty line" was $10, and the tax rate was 10%. 

So your taxes would be (income - $10,000)*0.1.

income	taxes
------	------
20,000	1,000
15,000	  500
10,000	    0
 5,000	  500
     0	1,000

Obviously, you'd want to move the break point up, or the tax rate up or
both to get a true replacement for welfare.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:16:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:16:33 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <000001c1ea22$d25c5a60$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <20422.182252.6Q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> If anyone in the Portland/Vancouver area that is on this list hears
> about any job that could use someone good with computers or telecom,
> please email me off-list.

I'm trying to scrape by until I can sell some property. Alas, it looks
like I need to spend several hundred bucks I can't afford just to make
the property likely to sell... :-(

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:19:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:19:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDBDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20422.183614.1Z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> You have that exactly backwards. The LL say it's physical, which might fall
> under the ADA if you thinks it is handicapping you in some way. The RR (and
> the Pope) say it is an act of the will, meaning sin.

No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
sex isn't a sin.

*Acting* upon that attraction (ie engaging in homsexual sex acts) is
what's the sin.

The confusion is due to the common error of confusing "being
homosexual" with being a *practicing* homosexual. Not the same thing.

And it makes sense. If you had to actually be performing the
appropriate type of sex acts to have a given sexual orientation, then
nobody who doesn't have an active sex life would *have* a sexual
orientation. Which is utter nonsense.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV66kY7QNSljIazjBl0001b1b6@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422212448.04e52de0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_113567595==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 09:14 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the
>original dispute with Mr. Arneson.  Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR when Mr.
>Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and co-authorship.<
>and,
> >Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and co-authorship.  TSR
>and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.<
>
>Not according to what I've heard.

Well, since I've talked with Dave Arneson many times over the past twenty 
years, I've gotten it from the source.

>Which is that Arneson wished no part in developing the game into what became
>AD&D. Thus the desire to not continue paying royalties when he was doing no
>work.

Not at ALL what Dave has said.  And "not continue paying royalties" is 
incorrect - TSR stopped paying royalties very early on in the history of 
the production of D&D.

> >Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with
>a straight face. <
>
>If you mean "Chess, Poker, and the AD&D game system", then I not only say
>that with a straight face, I submit it as proof of my position.

I was referring to "View From the Telescope Wondering Which End is Which" 
in issue #11.  My apologies.  Now go back and say that with a straight face.

>(Re:  Chaosium) I am aware of that.
>Are you aware that Gary contacted Chaosium and negotiated a mutual promotion
>to resolve the matter but the Blumes squashed the deal because they didn't
>want to give any support to anyone else?

No, but good to know.  Nice to be clear that the Blumes were the direct 
problem there.


> >Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?<
>
>Is that really necessary?

Well, given the sweeping statement you made, yes.  Unless this counts as a 
retraction.


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_113567595==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 09:14 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out
of TSR, true - but that came later than the<br>
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.&nbsp; Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR
when Mr.<br>
Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and
co-authorship.&lt;<br>
and,<br>
&gt;Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and
co-authorship.&nbsp; TSR<br>
and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.&lt;<br><br>
Not according to what I've heard.</blockquote><br>
Well, since I've talked with Dave Arneson many times over the past twenty
years, I've gotten it from the source.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Which is that Arneson wished no
part in developing the game into what became<br>
AD&amp;D. Thus the desire to not continue paying royalties when he was
doing no<br>
work.</blockquote><br>
Not at ALL what Dave has said.&nbsp; And &quot;not continue paying
royalties&quot; is incorrect - TSR stopped paying royalties very early on
in the history of the production of D&amp;D.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;Go re-read his editorial in
Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with<br>
a straight face. &lt;<br><br>
If you mean &quot;Chess, Poker, and the AD&amp;D game system&quot;, then
I not only say<br>
that with a straight face, I submit it as proof of my
position.</blockquote><br>
I was referring to &quot;View From the Telescope Wondering Which End is
Which&quot; in issue #11.&nbsp; My apologies.&nbsp; Now go back and say
that with a straight face.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>(Re:&nbsp; Chaosium) I am aware of
that.<br>
Are you aware that Gary contacted Chaosium and negotiated a mutual
promotion<br>
to resolve the matter but the Blumes squashed the deal because they
didn't<br>
want to give any support to anyone else?</blockquote><br>
No, but good to know.&nbsp; Nice to be clear that the Blumes were the
direct problem there.<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;Care to name any names, Mr.
Weiss?&lt;<br><br>
Is that really necessary?</blockquote><br>
Well, given the sweeping statement you made, yes.&nbsp; Unless this
counts as a retraction.<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_113567595==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <f9.1b1126af.29f61465@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422213416.04e54920@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_113712064==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

What Loren said.  While I've known Mr. Arneson much better than Mr. Gygax, 
I think Loren says it right.  Thanks!

Victor

At 09:35 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>As it happens, I am quite good friends with both Gary Gygax, and Dave
>Arneson, and I am better acquainted than most with their contributions to the
>hobby. I am the better for knowing them, and for having worked with both of
>them.
>
>They are happy to share the title: "Co-creators of Roleplaying" and with good
>reason, because they invented it. Much like Gilbert and Sullivan, they have
>their mutual antagonisms, but for the time they worked together, they
>invented the industry by which I now make a living. Something like
>roleplaying might have come about without them, because others were thinking
>along the same lines at about the same time, but they made it happen.
>Traveller would not exist without them. I'd be a game publisher, but it would
>be a radically altered industry, primarily board wargames and miniatures
>rules . . .
>
>Both Gary and Dave admit they missed opportunities. Who of us hasn't?
>However, I am not willing to press "reset" and eliminate one or the other of
>their contributions just to see what would happen. THings could have turned
>out a LOT worse.
>
>LKW
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_113712064==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
What Loren said.&nbsp; While I've known Mr. Arneson much better than Mr.
Gygax, I think Loren says it right.&nbsp; Thanks!<br><br>
Victor<br><br>
At 09:35 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As it happens, I am quite good
friends with both Gary Gygax, and Dave <br>
Arneson, and I am better acquainted than most with their contributions to
the <br>
hobby. I am the better for knowing them, and for having worked with both
of <br>
them.<br><br>
They are happy to share the title: &quot;Co-creators of Roleplaying&quot;
and with good <br>
reason, because they invented it. Much like Gilbert and Sullivan, they
have <br>
their mutual antagonisms, but for the time they worked together, they
<br>
invented the industry by which I now make a living. Something like <br>
roleplaying might have come about without them, because others were
thinking <br>
along the same lines at about the same time, but they made it happen.
<br>
Traveller would not exist without them. I'd be a game publisher, but it
would <br>
be a radically altered industry, primarily board wargames and miniatures
<br>
rules . . . <br><br>
Both Gary and Dave admit they missed opportunities. Who of us hasn't?
<br>
However, I am not willing to press &quot;reset&quot; and eliminate one or
the other of <br>
their contributions just to see what would happen. THings could have
turned <br>
out a LOT worse.<br><br>
LKW<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
TML mailing list<br>
TML@travellercentral.com<br>
<a href="http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml" eudora="autourl">http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml</a></blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_113712064==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20422.183614.1Z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEDKDMAA.tml@downport.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>
> No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
> homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
> sex isn't a sin.

You misstate the RR POV, which says there is no *being* in the equation.
That would suggest something physical. They tend to deny causation outside
of the fallen (sin) condition. You correctly stated the RCC position, which
like the jewish view holds that only the act is condemnable.

ObTrav: at what LL do we see the appearance of the Thought Police? Can they
exist at any LL, for 1 on up where the technology or psionic ability exists
to determine intent before action? Or does there have to be a high LL before
your thoughts become criminal?

_____________________________________________
The Traveller Web Portal
http://www.downport.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW! I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <F20Jpjc0D543TuylJc000000369@hotmail.com>

From: Jeff Zeitlin <editor@freelancetraveller.com>

     "...indicating that he wants to make Freelance Traveller the 
rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively flattering;..."


Mr. Zeitlin,

     Flattering it may be, but it also an award that you richly deserve, 
sir.  You EARNED it through both superb editing work and constant labor in 
maintaining such a fine web site.

     "Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who 
has allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work 
more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as 
you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people 
like you are too valuable to lose."

     Others may help in providing content, but the presentation is yours 
alone and that is the reason you and your site are being recognised.  The 
best of content, arranged in a haphazard, harum-scarum manner in a 
ill-designed site, would have been lost.  You crafted a wonderful showcase 
AND selected a pleasing variety of things to display within it AND ensured 
those items were well crafted.  The recognition and accolades are yours and 
yours alone, as they should be.
     Look at the "Wounded Colossus" material.  I originally posted it to the 
TML in several disjointed, rambling posts over the period of a month, 
nothing more than ill-spelled mess of grammatical horrors which contained 
some ideas that struck the List's fancy.
     You, Mr. Zeitlin, took all that dross and refined it.  You patiently 
collected each post, corrected the gaffes, goofs, and faux pas, cleaned up 
the presentation, whittled away redundancies, and acted in every way as a 
true editor, the type of editor ever writer should have.  You made the 
"Wounded Colossus" material far better than it had been when it left my 
hands.  That is why you have been honored.
     My congratulations, sir.  This honor are well deserved and long 
overdue.  Bravo, sir!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. Whipsnade, aka William R. Cameron

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:11:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:11:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F167tLLVTnE9Q3uQIhN00007388@hotmail.com>

From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>

     "EXCUSE ME? After your "Colossus" posts detailing your alternate ending 
to the MT Rebellion, I'll be happy to debate your statement with you or 
anyone else."

     "That was a masterful piece of work, sir, and one that has become a 
permanent part of my MT campaigns. I haven't seen much of your other work 
but quality, not quantity, is the mark of excellence (as Imperium Games 
found out the hard way)."


Mr. Smart,

     Thank you, sir, you are very kind.  I was fortunate in having the 
active participation of the List while posting WC.  I was doubly fortunate 
that Mr. Zeitlin both accepted it for inclusion in his site and polished it 
to a high luster.
     However, despite producing the "Colossus" material, I am not the best 
of web surfers or researchers!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F35zRPTNZStgLzhVOJw00000252@hotmail.com>

From: "Beth" <shylady69@runbox.com>

     "It's OK, nothing to worry about.  Everything will be alright.  Why 
don't you follow these two gentlemen to a nice comfy room we have for you.  
All padded and quiet.  Latter we will feed you.  We hope that you like 
pudding.  We will even fit you with a new jacket as well."


Ms. Shylady,

     I do enjoy a good pudding, but it so hard to grip the spoon with one's 
toes...
     May I also send along my condolences with regards to your bouts of 
Whipsnade's Syndrome?  "Brain Flatulence", as it is commonly known, is a 
horrid affliction.  The other day, I left the Whipsande Manse, Casa Diablo, 
without first putting on socks.  I didn't even notice my lack of socks until 
the local constabulary had run me in for not wearing pants.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422212448.04e52de0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV142mduL7Uu9Pyo250001b287@hotmail.com>

>Well, since I've talked with Dave Arneson many times over the past twenty
years, I've gotten it from the source.<

And since I've talked with Gary Gygax, so have I.

>Not at ALL what Dave has said.  And "not continue paying royalties" is
incorrect - TSR stopped paying royalties very early on in the history of the
production of D&D.<

Well I guess they have different opinions of how it went down.

>I was referring to "View From the Telescope Wondering Which End is Which"
in issue #11.  My apologies.  Now go back and say that with a straight
face.<

I don't have access to that.
Either way, it wouldn't really matter. You see, I've heard worse than
anything I've ever seen in print directed at me personally by Gary. So
anything sent in general will simply amuse me by how mild the statements
are.

>Well, given the sweeping statement you made, yes.  Unless this counts as a
retraction.<

It is not a retraction, but I will not elaborate on it. I see no reason to
engage in the gratuitous slamming of people just to satisfy your curiousity.
It will have to suffice that I've read critiques of Gary's work by people
whose works I regard as jokes.

Instead, I would also support what Loren said. I would simply note that no
one was eliminated by the statement being discussed. What you have it a
statement of support and admiration by someone who only regularly
communicates with one of the people involved. But it seems rather than being
satisfied with suggesting, as I did, that the statement is best completed by
adding, Arneson and Lee, people would rather go to attacking Gary.


Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 22:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon Apr 22 21:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <20020422041531.74282.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DAV43ywkGmY8TkomDt500003bb3@hotmail.com>

James Ramsay wrote:


> Until we develop AI or very very sophisticated system
> this would be useless in the real world.

I agree.  I suppose the system developer would claim he _had_ created a very
very sophisticated system.  I wouldn't presume to judge until I'd seen it in
operation, but I'm fairly skeptical that this things ready to set the world
on fire.

> How does a
> computer now whether a person is reaching for a gun or
> there wallet? Answer they can't.

Police and security officers, while performing lightyears beyond computers,
have a less than unblemished record in this regard.

> All it can do is
> determine that an image of a person looks like its
> reaching for something.

I think the system may scan pedestrian crowds looking for non-typical
patterns of traffic movement.  (Person X has passed the jewelry store 5
times in the past 10 minutes, while persons Y and Z have been loitering a
few yards away for about the same amount of time.  I'd better wake Officer
Friendly.)  Admittedly, this assumption is based on the WAG Algorithm.

> If they stopped wasting money
> on tech dreams such as this actual humans could be
> hired.

If by "tech dreams" you mean any new research, I disagree with the
philosophy implicit in your statement.  If, on the other hand, you mean
pie-in-the-sky nonsense, we're on the same page.

I'm mindful of a company some years ago that did quite well for itself in
the Texas area selling a "sniffer" gadget.  Their product was a box with a
few dials, some lights, and an antenna.  They marketed their product as
being able to sense drugs, explosives, and fire accelerants.  Based on some
slick brochures and some test demonstrations (where the fix was in, of
course) a number of schools, security firms and (sigh) police departments
purchased this fraudulent piece of garbage.

I don't know if the Cromatica system will turn out to be research or
pie-in-the-sky nonsense.

> And for a very long time into the future humans
> (even the ones typically hired as security guards)
> will have more reasoning ability than all the
> computers in the world!

I couldn't agree more.  And this touches on my real quibble with this or any
other advance that makes something like law enforcement/security easier or
more convenient.

    <Old Coot Rant: Enable>

Eaiser and more convenient don't necessarily translate to better.

In general, and all other things being equal:

Who's more diligent?
 a guard at a building with doors open to the public
or
 a guard at a building with biometric security.

Who knows more (in his/her head) about the people and area (s)he polices?
a cop of today with a car, cell phone, two way radio and mobile data
terminal
or
a cop of eighty years ago who walked a beat, contacted headquarters from a
call box, and was forced to rely on his/her knowledge and memory of their
beat and its inhabitants to do their job.

If the video scanning technology that checks body measurements against those
of known offenders becomes commonplace and reliable, how good will the next
generation of police be at remembering and recognizing faces?

If Cromatica works and becomes popular, how many security officers will set
the alarm and read / nap / play video games until the system says there's a
problem?

    <Old Coot Rant: Disable>

> Robotic security guards have
> been in development since the 70's and no one has yet
> to make one that is accurate and/or doesn't cost more
> than the police budget for a small city.

Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being tried
out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 22:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Mon Apr 22 21:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEDKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <B8EA36A9.3918%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

on 4/22/02 7:46 PM, Swordy at tml@downport.com wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>> 
>> No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
>> homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
>> sex isn't a sin.
> 
> You misstate the RR POV, which says there is no *being* in the equation.
> That would suggest something physical. They tend to deny causation outside
> of the fallen (sin) condition. You correctly stated the RCC position, which
> like the jewish view holds that only the act is condemnable.
> 
> ObTrav: at what LL do we see the appearance of the Thought Police? Can they
> exist at any LL, for 1 on up where the technology or psionic ability exists
> to determine intent before action? Or does there have to be a high LL before
> your thoughts become criminal?
> 

I would think it the measure is LL, not psionic ability or TL.  "1984"
describes a pretty low TL world, maybe 5-6?, an that book pretty much
defines 'thought police'.

Of course, this measures only what the official government of a world
enforces, not the society at large - so if society on planet Rubella
believes people who like blue are 'evil' or a threat of some type, and
therefore don't employ them, throw them out of their homes/schools, ban them
from normal family/societal functions to the point of actual physical danger
and at least economic hardship - the LL can still be rather low (even if the
Rubellan government actively attempts to help blue liking people by giving
them subsidies).

Doesn't LL not only cover what is illegal, but also how often you can expect
to be hassled and how much hassle you can expect once your character finds
him or herself talking to a cop?

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 02:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue Apr 23 01:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B84@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Tackett [mailto:haegen2001@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 22 April 2002 10:38
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
> 
> 
> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to
> > Comics.
> Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember
> what he did.

Co-wrote Original D&D with Gygax, His campaign world was Blackmoor,
Gygax's was Greyhawk

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 02:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 01:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
Message-ID: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C1EAAD.1F0222C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


A sample from Traveller's Aide #1 is now on the QuikLink site....

http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html

------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C1EAAD.1F0222C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A sample from Traveller's Aide #1 is =
now on the=20
QuikLink site....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html">http://www.traveller=
rpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C1EAAD.1F0222C0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Love the cover!
Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the pdf will be somewhat better.
I will be buying this.

Regards,

Andrei Nikulinsky

>
>A sample from Traveller's Aide #1 is now on the QuikLink site....
>
><http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html>http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <016901c1eaa7$8a03d6f0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> Love the cover!
> Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the pdf will be somewhat better.
> I will be buying this.
> 
> 

Heh.... we'll hold you to that, mind.....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV142mduL7Uu9Pyo250001b287@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIECFHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Just to clarify why I equated Arneson to Kirby and Gygax to
Shooter

Both Arneson and Kirby were the primary creative geniuses in
their work, and both lost control of their creative work due to
business practices, which while legal, were morally questionable.

Both Gygax and Shooter, while having produced some great work (in
Shooter's case the "Michael" sequence in "The Avengers" was
groundbreaking for mainstream superheroes) appear (in their
writing at least) to have huge egos, and  seem to very easly
alienate other creative people. They both also seem to have poor
business sense, while at the same time seeming to think they were
good at the money side of the business, though admittedly that is
my judgement basd on second-hand reports, so is not inherently
reliable.

I'd agree with Sam's equating of Gygax to Stan Lee as well, while
I think the Shooter comparison is more accurate in terms of
temperment and style, the original team pairing part is more
accurate in terms of contemporienity.

With regard to the old "D&D created the industry" chestnut,
despite Loren's statement, D&D was neither original nor was it a
neccessary catalyst for the industry.

If TSR had not had D&D, Professor Barker's "Empire of the Petal
Throne" would almost certainly still have been published by TSR a
short time later. What became Arduin and Runequest would still
have been developed at or around the same time. "Traveller" may
not have been, but then we would have had something else it's
place, perhaps from Steve Jackson ('Car Wars' was almost a
roleplaying game from it's inception) or from FGU.

In terms of originality, just about all of the basic concepts of
what would become "roleplaying" were discussed in H.G. Wells
"Little Wars". At the other end of the roleplaying spectrum, the
trend toward heroic free-form/improvisational theatre had already
peaked in the late sixties and was losing it's lustre, with one
or two notable exceptions.

GDW, Chaosium, WRG, TSR, Flying Buffalo, Steve Jackson, Steve
Curtis, and many other primarily wargaming companies were all in
the process of adding fantasy wargaming and roleplaying systems
of various forms to their wargames, largely due to the popularity
of "Lord of the Rings" at the time. These were based originally
on personalization details for their army "generals" and "special
figures", and also on the trend toward small scale "skirmish"
wargames where the individual figures were heavily personalized
and even given "character", of which "Chainmail" was just one,
and not the most influential either.

While I'm not going to deny D&D's importance, it was not, IMO,
neccessary for the development of roleplaying.
Someone would have filled the role, just as someone would have
become the equivalemt of Bill Gates and Microsoft if Bill & Co.
had not been around, as both were merely a culmination of trends
rather than sudden discontinuities.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:34:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:34:38 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKECFHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rachel Kronick wrote :
> On 22 Apr 2002, at 20:20, Timothy Little wrote:
>
> > Blame it on the government, not Frank.  They're the
> > ones making decisions whether to hand out money
> > based on the origin of your ancestors.  I'm not
> > sure whether he was being serious about the
> > "lesbian" benefit or not.

Actually I don't think there actually is a _specific_ lesbian
benefit in New Zealand, I was being flippant.

> The solo parent benefit certainly is fact.

Yes, as are the special benefits for Maori, though I don't
disagree with the intent of the solo parent benefit or some of
the benefits targetted at Maori, my beef is with the people who
consider it a career choice, and the government that takes so
much of my money.

> I have little or no problem with the government's
> decisions regarding  benefits;

While I, on the other hand have huge problems with the way these
benefits are awarded.

I consider that such things should be targetted based on need,
not on membership of some arbitrary racial or social grouping, as
_that_, IMO, is racism, sexism, or whatever.

> the problem was that Frank came very close
> to implicitly saying that being Maori or being
> lesbian was a bad thing.

If I thought being Maori or being lesbian were bad things in
themselves I would have no qualms about saying it in public or on
this list. I wouldn't just imply it.

> His derisive tone, not the government's decision,
> was what irked me.

I'd say you worry about the wrong things then, complaining about
a mere derisive tone rather than the actual racism and sexism the
derision was targetted at. But that's your karma, not mine.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 04:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 03:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/23/2002 at 5:05 PM ondy wrote:

>Love the cover!
>Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the pdf will be somewhat better.
>I will be buying this.

The jpgs don't do it justice really, so I just posted a 4-page PDF sample=
 also. Same pages, but you get a better look at the layout!

http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001s.pdf

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 04:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 03:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Law Level (was: RAH and Libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <20020423093810.4CB01279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020423093810.4CB01279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <j6cacu0relbk1aah5d6noe68aoaq6v0ncf@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:32:03 -0700, Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Doesn't LL not only cover what is illegal, but also how often you can expect
>to be hassled and how much hassle you can expect once your character finds
>him or herself talking to a cop?

There are varying interpretations; the Original Canon seemed to make LL
exclusively a measure of how legal it was to go around armed beyond the
teeth.  Not unreasonable, necessarily, given that the level of
sophistication of role-playing in those days was low by today's standards,
and hakkenslash was "SOP". (N.B. I view Traveller as having been one of the
games that started the movement away from that.)

On the rare occasions that I actually address the question of what LL
means, I do currently interpret it as being the 'overall police hasslement'
likelihood - but I also like to expand the LL into a ULP,  l DGP WBH -
after all, there's no requirement for consistency in all areas of the law
(e.g., LL in NYC for weapons possession is essentially 9+, but I'd estimate
the hasslement level as only about 3 for most people in most situations).
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 07:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 06:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RPGs
Message-ID: <95.1b594c7e.29f6ba34@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/23/2002 4:39:08 AM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>GDW, Chaosium, WRG, TSR, Flying Buffalo, Steve Jackson, Steve
>Curtis, and many other primarily wargaming companies were all in
>the process of adding fantasy wargaming and roleplaying systems
>of various forms to their wargames, largely due to the popularity
>of "Lord of the Rings" at the time. These were based originally
>on personalization details for their army "generals" and "special
>figures", and also on the trend toward small scale "skirmish"
>wargames where the individual figures were heavily personalized
>and even given "character", of which "Chainmail" was just one,
>and not the most influential either.

You've obviously done considerable research if you know of Steve Curtis -- 
few people do nowadays.

>While I'm not going to deny D&D's importance, it was not, IMO,
>neccessary for the development of roleplaying.

I'm not as certain of that as you are . . . let us agree to disagree.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 07:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 06:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <DAV43ywkGmY8TkomDt500003bb3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC60A07.12144.5F6853@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002 at 23:39, Texas Redshift wrote:

> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being tried
> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

Not off-hand, but that sounds like one of Harry Harrison's from _War 
with the Robots_.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:35:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:35:26 2002
Subject: [TML] GT-FT question: Governers vs Legates
Message-ID: <3CC57085.ACFD07EB@mail.cswnet.com>

Two quick questions:

Whats the difference between an Imperial Governor and an Imperial
Governor-General?

On worlds like Arba and Yorbund, where there is no government, who does
the Imperium send, a Legate or a Governor?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] living space
Message-ID: <F209X64kDn9cvKluevz000007df@hotmail.com>

From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net>

     "But the Traveller navies, like the wet navies of today require 
sophisticated technologically savvy crewmen. Not the kind of people that 
would want to live under conditions that exist on even today's ships (one 
reason the U.S. Navy has so much trouble keeping people.)"


Mr. Carlino,

     A very accurate supposition, sir.  Living conditions were one, of many, 
reasons I did not put twenty years in the USN.
     During the ship habitability thread of last year, I described ad 
nauseum the living arrangements aboard my last ship, USS California.  A 
brief recap will fit here.
     I lived with 41 other men in an area slightly smaller than a two car 
garage.  Our bunks were stacked three high.  Personal property stowage was 
limited to a locker underneath our beds; approx 6' by 2' and 10" deep, and a 
smaller gym-style locker.  My division was lucky, our office was one deck 
below our berthing area so we could watch TV, play cards, etc., down there 
and let others sleep.
     Our berthing area was a "hazardous noise area" when underway.  That 
meant that ear plugs or muffs were required.  Both propeller shafts ran 
underneath the space, #2 engineroom was forward, #2 diesel was aft along 
with #2 pump room.  My last year aboard, the space finally recieved noise 
dampening pads on the bulkheads which lessened the problem somewhat.
     The sanitary arrangements can be summed up in one phrase; our two 
commodes didn't have stalls around them until my last year aboard.

     "One of the easiest, and cheapest in the long run, method of keeping 
high quality people is to give them decent living conditions. It is common 
on merchant ships today for seamen to live in the kind of berthing used on 
Traveller ships. It is my contention that by the middle of this century U.S. 
Navy ships will have similar berthing, if only because that's they only way 
they will be able to compete for the high quality technical people they 
need."

     Either that or barracks ashore for ALL personnel.  The SSNs and SSBNs 
have always housed their crews ashore when the vessel is in port.  The rest 
of the Navy should do the same.  Putting up with cramped living conditions 
would be tolerable during deployments IF you knew you'd be returning to 
barracks back in port.  As it stands now, most naval personnel live in the 
factories where they work.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

ObTrav - I've always thought that 57th century SDBs are crewed in a manner 
similar to USN SSBNs; two crews per vessel.  This keeps the SDB on patrol 
longer without driving the crew mad.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:46:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:46:12 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <200204231444.g3NEieV03093@uranus.networkwcs.net>

[... snip long non-Traveller stuff ...]

So what I would like to know from those who seem to have discussions
with G. Gygax is this: What is it about +1 axes and why do they seem
to appear in every early D&D module? Why, oh God why?!? THE AXES, THE
AXES!!!

... ahem. Sorry. I'll go back into topor again.

ObTrav: Do the Imperial Marines use +1 axes in shipboard hand-to-hand
combat? Would a superdense axehead make a +1 axe? If Dulinor had
killed Strephon with a +1 axe, would the course of the Rebellion been
altered (oh wait, it was all a dream, wasn't it Bobby?). Would F.S.
industries be willing to buy secret plans for a +1 axe spinal mount
stolen from the planet Xayag?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

Who showed supreme restraint when he gave the last p*racy thread a pass.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:52:13 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <F209X64kDn9cvKluevz000007df@hotmail.com>
References: <F209X64kDn9cvKluevz000007df@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <02042316460813.03729@avlendris>

Hey Guys

After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video 
(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net seems 
utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was a 
Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters). 

Anyone have any clue?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIECFHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <DAV142mduL7Uu9Pyo250001b287@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020423094644.04ea2d60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_1470066==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 09:42 PM 4/23/02 +1200, you wrote:
>If TSR had not had D&D, Professor Barker's "Empire of the Petal
>Throne" would almost certainly still have been published by TSR a
>short time later.

Not necessarily true.  Prof. Barker was introduced to D&D role-playing by a 
player from Mr. Gygax's Greyhawk campaign, who had moved from Lake Geneva 
to Minneapolis to begin college.  The subsequent game was mildly influenced 
by D&D, and aside from the "Purple Book" (the play-test rules that became 
EPT), there's no clear set of "role-playing" rules for Tekumel.  To be 
sure, Prof. Barker has talked about the role-playing done in grad school, 
but it wasn't intended for publication.

Victor Raymond


Victor J. Raymond
Department of Sociology, ISU
vraymond@iastate.edu
--=====================_1470066==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 09:42 PM 4/23/02 +1200, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>If TSR had not had D&amp;D,
Professor Barker's &quot;Empire of the Petal<br>
Throne&quot; would almost certainly still have been published by TSR
a<br>
short time later. <br>
</blockquote><br>
Not necessarily true.&nbsp; Prof. Barker was introduced to D&amp;D
role-playing by a player from Mr. Gygax's Greyhawk campaign, who had
moved from Lake Geneva to Minneapolis to begin college.&nbsp; The
subsequent game was mildly influenced by D&amp;D, and aside from the
&quot;Purple Book&quot; (the play-test rules that became EPT), there's no
clear set of &quot;role-playing&quot; rules for Tekumel.&nbsp; To be
sure, Prof. Barker has talked about the role-playing done in grad school,
but it wasn't intended for publication.<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times">Victor J. Raymond<br>
Department of Sociology, ISU<br>
vraymond@iastate.edu</font></html>

--=====================_1470066==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 09:20:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 08:20:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>; from martinjd@globalnet.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:56:21AM +0100
References: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020423091936.A5708@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:56:21AM +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
> http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html

Looks attractive.  I wonder, though, if it might not have been
possible to put GURPS stats in as well.  Might have widened the market
some, and with a decent little prog shouldn't be too expensive.
Famous last words and all that, I know...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you want to travel around the world and be invited to speak at a lot
of different places, just write a Unix operating system.
                                       --Linus Torvalds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
>Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
...
>I'm not anti-taxes; they're a necessary evil.  But it's important to
>realise the very bad efects taxation has on an economy.  Ideally
>taxation (and therefore, the public sector) would be limited to a few
>percent of GDP, so as to minimise the deleterious economic effects
>thereof.

  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a substantial
public investment in infrastructure? It's called the Third World.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>






>After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video
>(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net
seems
>utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was
a
>Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters).

I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 (in fact
i try to pretend it never happened.)

I once ran a Galactica campaign. however i had no real dimensions on the
ship. so i started doing some guessing. First i found somewhere stated that
Battlestars carried 75 fighters broken down into 4 squadrons. i had
problems with this number. it worked out to 18 vipers per sqdrn and 3 left
over for... what? replacements to the squadrons? again nothing i could find
explained it.

anyway I also found out that she could launch all her vipers at once.
launching both Landing Bays(I always referred to the entire pod as the
Landing Bays even though only the aft end of the pod was used for ship
recovery). this comes up with the very convenient number of 37.5. so we are
launching half a viper out each bay every time we are under attack.

well i made a few changes upped the number of vipers to 80 giving each
sqdrn 20. and launching 40 in a broadside. to figure the length of the ship
i actually did two things. (Now remember this is from memory from like 1986
8P )

First i did have a set of dimensions for the viper. so i calculated the
width of the viper and launch bay at both 37.5 and 40. i had a set of plans
that where actually used to build the Mock fighter and the Launching pad
set. i think i still have that set of plans at home ill look tonight if i
do ill send you the dimensions i worked with.

Once this distance was figured. i tried to figure out how many gun
positions where spaced along the launch tub exits. the only way i could
figure this was by looking at the model i had built as a kid. Now granted i
know this is not the best thing you could do to figure it but i really had
no other choice. i took a best guess as to how wide i thought each gun
position was and added it to my viper width total.

i then estimated that this total number was 80% of the length of a landing
bay. so i tacked on 20% more to get a total landing bay. then once i had
this number i estimated the length percentage of the landing bay to the
ships over all length. so if i felt the landing bay was 45% of the ships
over all length i just tacked on double the landing bay plus 15% more to
get a total length over all.

to find width i did something similar.

when the vipers where on final to one of the landing bays you could see
other vipers sitting on their launch cradles. i did a an estimate of the
width of the landing bays based on the LOA of a Viper. once i had that
number i used my bays as a guide for a WOA for a Battlestar.

The number that comes to mind from back then is like 1750 meters to 1950
meters depending on 37.5 per broadside to 40 per broadside. She really is a
huge ship. i cant remember the WOA. ill look and see if i can find my notes
on dimensions for the Galactica and my plans that have the actual viper
dimensions

the biggest problem is that i don't think any real dimensions were ever
published for the Galactica so any dimensions are really a best guess.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231606.EVJ07561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

shudson@lightspeed.ca says
>
>  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
>modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a 
>substantial public investment in infrastructure? It's called 
>the Third World.
>

There's a balance to be struck there.  It's possible to spend 
too much, or make the definition of infrastructure too 
vague.  Also, it's a good thing for governments to invest in 
areas where venture capitalists fear to tread (rural electric 
power, the original Internet), but it's also good to know 
when those things should become private.

Not Exactly ObTrav: I firmly believe that instead of spending 
money on the Space Shuttle, the government should be spending 
on an initiative to get companies to build a low cost means 
to get into orbit.  Any idea that could work should be on the 
table.  Companies should get incentives for working in 
space.  We need to get off this rock and make money, instead 
of doing science in a tin can in orbit.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>; from shudson@lightspeed.ca on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 08:52:20AM -0700
References: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 08:52:20AM -0700, Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
>   Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
> modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a substantial
> public investment in infrastructure? It's called the Third World.

Of course I'm serious.  And the problem with those countries is not
`investment' (which is a misused word: investments yield returns), but
lack of ironclad property and contract law, among other things.  The
First World pours money into those places, and it does very little
good.

There are things for which it makes sense that they be state-run
(e.g. power & water distribution, roads &c.) but not state-subsidised
(i.e. you pay for what you burn/drink/whatever).  There are things for
which it makes sense that they be state-subsidised (e.g. the military
and process of government).

That does not mean that the public sector should be as large as it is.
And it certainly doesn't mean that we should not investigate ways to
either privatise _or_ run on the local level.

Good sigmonster...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A man who lives in a country ought to contribute his fair share to its
defense and maintenance.  Everything else is extortion.
                                       --Poul Anderson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:13:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:13:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020423091936.A5708@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>

In the broadest sense, they are competing products. And even though one of
them is based on an "open" gaming system, the other is not ;)

From Miracle Max's Recipe Book:

	To one fresh paper cut;
		add 1 tsp. lemon juice
		and 1/2 tsp. salt

	mash with your thumb until screaming stops

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Robert A. Uhl

> > http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html
>
> Looks attractive.  I wonder, though, if it might not have been
> possible to put GURPS stats in as well.  Might have widened the market
> some, and with a decent little prog shouldn't be too expensive.
> Famous last words and all that, I know...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:19:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:19:53 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
> Once this distance was figured. i tried to figure out how many gun
> positions where spaced along the launch tub exits. the only way i could
> figure this was by looking at the model i had built as a kid. Now

Model of what?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On 22 Apr 2002 at 7:41, Paul Walker wrote:
> > Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is
> 10,000Cr. 
> > If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away
> 10,000
> > of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick. 
> In
> > my mind, this situation would produce three types
> of
> > people:
> 
> You're assuming that 50% of the population does no
> work, here.

Well, given Human nature, I would expect fewer than
50% to work.  If you can live decently without any
attempt to work, why would you work?  The entire
discussion originated around the negative tax, and the
explanation given has the government setting the
"poverty" level.

More than assuming 50% doesn't work, I assume that the
government will set the "poverty" level near the
median income.  Why?  It is good for reelection.  Now
before anyone jumps on my case, I recognize that this
is one of the major assumptions that will flaw my
arguement, but, frankly, I don't trust the government
to make the right decision.

The welfare system should exist for two reasons,
helping those who can't work to survive, and
encouraging those who can work to do so. 
Unfortunately, that is not what government officials
use it for.  They use it as a kick-back for votes. (I
do confess to a US-centric view of politics, but I
would imagine it is similar.)

The negative tax system as presented rewards people
for not working.  If you can work and you choose not
to, you should not get any reward.
  
> > 1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
> >      These people continue to earn as much as they
> > can, either (a) hoping that maybe the government
> will
> > not need all of it to pay for those not at poverty
> > level and that they will get to keep the extra
> > (doubtful) or (b) working because they are not
> > concerned with the money aspect of the work, but
> are
> > motivated by something else entirely.
> 
> Why is it doubtful?
> 

Because the government will be likely to take more
than they need.  Someone will present the idea that we
can't lower the poverty level but we may not get
enough taxes to pay next year, so we better take a
little extra to ensure that we can pay the poverty
level in the future.  Not to mention that we need to
take in more taxes for our pork barrel.  

I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
retiring tomorrow.  While I don't know where all the
money went, I know that much went to pork barrel, and
some went to folks who never paid that much in.

Maybe I'm not making sense.  Suffice it to say, that I
don't trust the government to make the right
decisions, and the negative tax seems to put much
trust in the government to make the right decisions.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:25:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:25:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231606.EVJ07561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:06:01PM -0400
References: <200204231606.EVJ07561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423101904.C5708@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:06:01PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> Not Exactly ObTrav: I firmly believe that instead of spending 
> money on the Space Shuttle, the government should be spending 
> on an initiative to get companies to build a low cost means 
> to get into orbit.

_Allowing_ companies to build and enter orbit would be a good start.

Part of the problem is that the technology to get men to the moon is
precisely the technology to get nukes to Naples.  Modern nation states
like it when a) only states posess power and b) as few states as
possible do so.

Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
but it's an interesting way to look at it.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say
to its subjects, `This you may not read, this you must not see, this
you are forbidden to know,' the end result is tyranny and oppression,
no matter how holy the motives.  Mighty little force is needed to
control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount
of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the
rack, not fission bombs, not anything.  You can't conquer a free man;
the most you can do is kill him.               --Robert A.  Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020423162545.82697.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> That would *only* be true if the median income was
> at the poverty 
> line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.

You are correct.  I think the pressure would be on the
government from those below median income to put the
"poverty" level as close to median as possible.

As those two numbers get closer, the quantity of
people who try to make more than will be taken is
reduced.  (I may be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of
work for 6,000Cr, but when the numbers get closer,
will I be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of work for
3,000Cr?)

The cycle continues until there are too few workers to
support the system.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162545.82697.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019580147.4086.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> --- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > That would *only* be true if the median income was
> > at the poverty 
> > line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.
> 
> You are correct.  I think the pressure would be on the
> government from those below median income to put the
> "poverty" level as close to median as possible.

Sure, and for those above the median income to put the 'poverty' level as low
as possible.  Seriously, the political pressures on tax levels with negative
income are not substantially different from those associated with general
welfare today, and it's very rare for welfare to allow someone to live at
median income.

Of course, if by 'poverty line', you mean the point at which your net tax rate
is zero, that may be at a fairly high percentile, but simply sitting without
working only gets you around 1/5 of that much money.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162545.82697.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Paul Walker wrote:

> --- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > That would *only* be true if the median income was
> > at the poverty 
> > line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.
> 
> You are correct.  I think the pressure would be on the
> government from those below median income to put the
> "poverty" level as close to median as possible.
> 
> As those two numbers get closer, the quantity of
> people who try to make more than will be taken is
> reduced.  (I may be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of
> work for 6,000Cr, but when the numbers get closer,
> will I be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of work for
> 3,000Cr?)

This kind of economic system will ONLY work if no one has a "shit job".

If I had my druthers I would spend every day writing.  I might or might
not make any money on it, but that's what I'd do.  I do not work as a
physicians' administrative assistant for the sheer pleasure of it.  It's
annoying and boring much of the time, even though I believe in what we are
doing here.

Economic systems such as the one in ST:TNG work the way they do because of
labor replacement.  Replicators and robotics and "holograms" (that aren't
holograms) ensure that human beings don't have to flip burgers, type other
people's correspondence, etc.  I don't know who does the plumbing.  There
are a lot of jobs that pay well because they are boring, dangerous, or
stressful that people will simply not do unless they either love the work
so much they don't care, or are paid a lot more than other folks, so it is
worth it to them, and not taxed down to the median.

Writers, artists, and scientists love to posit such economic systems,
because they love what they do and will do it whether or not they get paid
a lot.  The fact remains, however, that construction work, plumbing, oil
rigging, upper level administration, and a lot of other very important
jobs that bring in fat paychecks get done because people want the fat
paychecks, not because people's souls thrill at the thought of mucking out
your sewer pipes or sitting through another meeting about the
Tleilaxu-Seldon grant budget.  I would never sit through another meeting
if I didn't have to.  I don't believe that the people who are going to
come over next Friday and fix my telephone lines are in it for the fun of
it all, either.

That is why I don't see this as a valid social plan.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93!  Thou Art God tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:53:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:53:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> > Looks attractive.  I wonder, though, if it might not have been
> > possible to put GURPS stats in as well.  Might have widened the market
> > some, and with a decent little prog shouldn't be too expensive.
> > Famous last words and all that, I know...


We don't have a license to do GURPS products. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFC0ADB44D.1ECBB5A6-ON85256BA4.005A572C@pheaa.org>





>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
>> Once this distance was figured. i tried to figure out how many gun
>> positions where spaced along the launch tub exits. the only way i could
>> figure this was by looking at the model i had built as a kid. Now

>Model of what?

Of the Galactica. put out by Revell or Monogram i think. had decals to make
it either the Galactica or the Pegasus. i made mine the Pegasus. I also had
several Vipers. in fact i built one on a launch cradle with a scratch built
Interior. It was not very good but i loved it 8)

the launch bays where clear along the Port and starboard side. spaced among
them (twice i think) was this flat area of hull where they gun emplacements
where suppose to be. On the model they did get the Forward Angle on the
Launch bays correct. the fighters did not launch strait out they launched
at a forward angle from the ship.

On a side note the number of launch tubs on this model where off as well. i
think it had like 24 or 25 launch tubes per broadside. but this model was
not what i would call a real scale model of the ship. it had a number of
serious Inconsistencies compared to the one you saw every week on the show.

For Example there is a "Tube" type stricture running from the port landing
bay to starboard landing bay underneath the Galactica's main hull. my
Assumption in my game was that this "tube" allowed for viper/shuttle
storage and maintenance. it also allowed for the moving of ships from on
bay to another depending on the situation. IE say in battle Alpha bay was
damaged in such a way that no viper recoveries could be made but the
forward launch facilities where still operable. you could recover vipers in
beta bay and move them to alphas launch tubes.

on the model this structure is not a "tube" but a portion of the main ships
hull. in fact the mid Bay Pylon is also molded into this structure when it
should not be. so if you use the model as a guide the Mid Pylon is actually
part of this huge under hull mass. However if you watch the show there are
some nice starboard side flanking shots of the Galactica as she moves away
from you. in these shots you can see the Mid Pylon is its own separate
structure. it also comes down at a different angle than the Fore and Aft
Pylons.

I am no engineer but my "feeling" is that the mid Pylon serves as some sort
of load bearing or structural reenforcement member for the entire
structure.

Gads I'm talking to much. on a side note the released those models again
recently i wanted to buy them so i could build a second Battlestar to go
with my "Pegasus". 8)i still have my original Battlestar hanging from the
ceiling in my Office at the house 8P

Bill


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231704.EVL07840@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Kiri Aradia Morgan says
>
>Economic systems such as the one in ST:TNG work the way they 
>do because of labor replacement.  Replicators and robotics 
>and "holograms" (that aren't holograms) ensure that human 
>beings don't have to flip burgers, type other people's 
>correspondence, etc.  I don't know who does the plumbing.  

That's what I liked about Babylon 5.  There were not only 
people who cleaned the plumbing, there were jobless, 
desperate people as well.  I find that any other 
representation of human society is unreal in the extreme.

The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST 
series is that everyone is an officer.

ObTrav: IMTU the advent of new technology hasn't liberated 
too many of the working poor - in fact, in some cases, it's 
just made them the non-working poor.  There's a great 
Stanislaw Lem story along those lines...
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
References: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <02042318594616.03729@avlendris>

On Tuesday 23 April 2002 17:04, you wrote:
> >After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video
> >(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net
>
> seems
>
> >utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was
>
> a
>
> >Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters).
>
> I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 (in fact
> i try to pretend it never happened.)
 

I think we all did that ;->

I don't know if I have the heart to tell you.. you seemed to have put in a 
lot of work... but the vipers launch tubes come out along the "jaw line" of 
the Galactica, along the bottom edge of the "head" part. Also, if you watch 
the vipers emerge, more than one emerge at a time. What I always wondered 
was.... why Didn't they launch them from the "pods", why did they go to the 
trouble of moving them up to the "head"?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:12:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisc
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEIKCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: wlewis@mailbag.com
>
>My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete
the
>process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be spending the
evening
>of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San Francisco. If there are
any
>fellow Travellers who would care to get to gether with me that evening for
beer
>and/or conversation, please let me know.

When does your flight arrive, and when would you like to meet?  The San
Francisco Airport Holiday Inn is not in San Francisco, nor is it actually
very close to the airport, if I'm thinking of the right hotel -- but that
won't stop us from meeting someone who is really travelling.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <OFC0ADB44D.1ECBB5A6-ON85256BA4.005A572C@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEEEDMAA.tml@downport.com>

No scale, eh? Too bad. That might have been your answer right there :(

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
>
> >Model of what?
>
> Of the Galactica. put out by Revell or Monogram i think. had
[snip]
> but this model was
> not what i would call a real scale model of the ship. it had a number of
> serious Inconsistencies compared to the one you saw every week on
> the show.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:23:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:23:09 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFDA0A27EA.2AAADE7D-ON85256BA4.005EE7AF@pheaa.org>







>I don't know if I have the heart to tell you.. you seemed to have put in a

>lot of work... but the vipers launch tubes come out along the "jaw line"
of
>the Galactica, along the bottom edge of the "head" part. Also, if you
watch
>the vipers emerge, more than one emerge at a time. What I always wondered
>was.... why Didn't they launch them from the "pods", why did they go to
the
>trouble of moving them up to the "head"?

No they don't launch from the head. if you look at the movies during the
launch sequence they once and a while show an over the ship shot. you see
the vipers emerging from the forward part of the Pod. in fact i believe the
shot shows part of the forward portion of the pod where it slops back down
to a point.

Also if you look closely when the viper is on Approach to the landing bay
you will see all these vipers sitting in their launch cradles.

I had someone try to tell me this before but i went back and watched my
videos and confirmed the things i have said.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>; from traveller_tv@yahoo.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:20:37AM -0700
References: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost> <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020423113808.B6061@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:20:37AM -0700, Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
> great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
> money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
> putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
> retiring tomorrow.

It's a Ponzi scheme, pure and simple.

What we really need is for FICA to go into an 401(k) which is paid out
to one after some age, and is inheritable.  I don't mind enforced
savings for the future.  What I mind is being forced into a pyramid
scheme which we _cannot win_.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A Democracy: Three wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.
A Republic: The flock gets to vote for which wolves vote on dinner.
A Constitutional Republic: Voting on dinner is expressly forbidden, and
  the sheep are armed.
          --Anonymous

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:46:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:46:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>; from martinjd@globalnet.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:50:22PM +0100
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com> <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:50:22PM +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> We don't have a license to do GURPS products. 

You don't need one, any more than East Taiwan Metal & Plastic needs a
license to manufacture a Ford compatible gas cap.  As long as no
patent, trademark or copyright is infringed, one can do anything.  I
believe that interoperability is still protected, even in the
(horrendous) DMCA.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Earth is degenerating these days.  Bribery and corruption abound.
Children no longer mind their parents, every man wants to write a book,
and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching.
                           --Assyrian stone tablet, c. 2800 B.C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <200204231755.g3NHtrJ15709@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> 
>Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:46:08 +0100
>Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
...
>After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video 
>(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net seems 
>utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was a 
>Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters). 

  Well, the box for the Revell-Monogram kit says 45 cm :)  The fluff
text in the instructions says 2000' long, which isn't much better. 

  ISTR that there's a fairly serious treatment of this (based on 
one of the scale models from the series?) at:  www.chrispappas.com
IAC, there _must_ be a Galactica web-ring.

  In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the 
openings on the launch/landing bays.

  And on said Revell-Monogram model (85-3618) those openings are
no more than 4mm on a 400+mm ship. So 800m length looks to be a
minimum; given the proportions, perhaps around 500,000 Dt?

  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:18:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:18:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231803.g3NI3xJ17762@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
...
>>  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
>>modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a 
>>substantial public investment in infrastructure? It's called 
>>the Third World.
>
>There's a balance to be struck there.  It's possible to spend 
>too much, or make the definition of infrastructure too vague.  

  Heck, yes - bureaucracies (whether corporate or government)
are fully able to make horrid investment decisions. As can
individuals, of course :(

...Also, it's a good thing for governments to invest in 
>areas where venture capitalists fear to tread (rural electric 
>power, the original Internet), but it's also good to know 
>when those things should become private.

  Agree, broadly, although I think there's much merit in the
arguments for maintaining public ownership of some "natural
monopoly" items of infrastructure.

  ObTrav: the IN is _the_ crucial piece of the 3I's public 
infrastructure; the Throne maintains an effective monopoly
on its own ownership. Right?

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231803.g3NI3xJ17762@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019586447.9084.ajackson@ping>

Steven Hudson writes:

>   ObTrav: the IN is _the_ crucial piece of the 3I's public 
> infrastructure; the Throne maintains an effective monopoly
> on its own ownership. Right?

Well, by definition the IN is only controlled by the Imperium.  However, the
Throne does not have an effective monopoly on interstellar naval forces.

However, the other public infrastructure controlled by the throne is just as
crucial (though, once again, not a monopoly).  That's starports.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:35:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:35:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
Message-ID: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was revisiting the idea of the solo adventure as mentioned 
a while back.  And then I was surfing someone's blog today, 
and it had a parody of an Ayn Rand story (she is rather 
formulaic).  And that reminded me of a gizmo I got from an 
old copy of Spy Magazine that helps you become a fashionable 
writer in New York, writing in the style, of say, Bret Easton 
Ellis.

It's a thing with a sliding card, and you make your 
selections and then read your story.  

It would be great if someone could write a plot 
generator/navigator that used CT rules and ran on a Palm.  I 
don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play 
backgammon on the Metro.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:39:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:39:18 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <200204231834.g3NIYtJ26544@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

...
>  In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
>a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the 
>openings on the launch/landing bays.

  FWIW, there are photos of a scale model of a Galactica Shuttle at:
        http://www.EdMiarecki.com/Formatting/re06.html

  ISTR from the show that those windows aren't small, so that may be
in the 200 Dt range for Trav - guestimates, anyone?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:27:25PM -0400
References: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423124144.B6115@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:27:25PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> I don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
> backgammon on the Metro.

Ah, but there's also solitaire.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
'Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US
 companies like Microsoft.'                         --some AOLer
'To this end we dedicate ourselves...'                     --Don

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:46:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jim Catchpole)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:46:48 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
References: <200204231755.g3NHtrJ15709@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <008801c1eaf6$93b2af60$7b000150@jimcatchpole>

----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.ca>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 23 April 2002 18:54
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?


> >From: Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie>
> >Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:46:08 +0100
> >Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?

>   In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
> a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the
> openings on the launch/landing bays.
>
>   And on said Revell-Monogram model (85-3618) those openings are
> no more than 4mm on a 400+mm ship. So 800m length looks to be a
> minimum; given the proportions, perhaps around 500,000 Dt?
>

Well,  from memory,  the book of the film said 'over a mile long'. It also
claimed the ship was over 200 years old.

I don't know if you could consider that reliable though (my memory or the
book) ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:56:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:56:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
>> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being
tried
>> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
>> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
>> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?
>
>Not off-hand, but that sounds like one of Harry Harrison's from _War
>with the Robots_.

Isaac Asimov, The Caves of Steel, circa 1952.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:59:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:59:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFBB88BA8A.57A354AF-ON85256BA4.00674941@pheaa.org>





...
>  In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
>a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the
>openings on the launch/landing bays.

  FWIW, there are photos of a scale model of a Galactica Shuttle at:
        http://www.EdMiarecki.com/Formatting/re06.html

 If pop up a level on the website he has the Galactica model there. if you
look closely to the pod in some of those pictures you can see the launch
tubes running down the sides of the bay. intermittently you see spots where
gun emplacements are nested in-between launch tubes.

great site.

Bill



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:01:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:01:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <20020423124144.B6115@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231147070.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:27:25PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >
> > I don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
> > backgammon on the Metro.
> 
> Ah, but there's also solitaire.
> 
Where on earth is it that people pay $400 USD for a palm pilot?  I don't
have one, but I have never heard of anyone paying that much for one.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423153922.00b8bec0@urbin.net>

At 02:27 PM 4/23/02 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>I was revisiting the idea of the solo adventure as mentioned
>a while back.  And then I was surfing someone's blog today,
>and it had a parody of an Ayn Rand story (she is rather
>formulaic).  And that reminded me of a gizmo I got from an
>old copy of Spy Magazine that helps you become a fashionable
>writer in New York, writing in the style, of say, Bret Easton
>Ellis.
>
>It's a thing with a sliding card, and you make your
>selections and then read your story.
>
>It would be great if someone could write a plot
>generator/navigator that used CT rules and ran on a Palm.  I
>don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
>backgammon on the Metro.

You should have gone for the i705.  I keep up with my various Traveller 
PBEM games using my Palm.
You may not get the coverage in the Metro, but for cases like that, I 
download the mail first.
Then I read it, delete & reply.  When I get signal again, I toggle the 
outbox to be sent and empty the trash.

I'm also using Documents to Go store character data.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC5B895.7010800@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>>
>>>Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being
>>
> tried
> 
>>>out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
>>>letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
>>>predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

Wan't that called 'Brillo' ?


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:54:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:54:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip about robot policeman stories>

My favorite robot policeman is ED-209.  I have the feeling 
that if they do introduce robot policemen, they will be 
far "dumber" than the ones in the science fiction story 
you're talking about.

Me, I'm waiting for the autonomous infantryman.  Of course, 
you can get a real infantryman pretty cheap, so prices will 
have to come down.  

Of course, you can't beat an autonomous robot infantryman for 
sheer terror.  It's probably a bit harder to kill than a real 
infantryman, and it's probably a much better shot. And if you 
manage to kill it, all you've done is trash some electronic 
parts.  Not very satisfying.  And you probably can't capture 
one - even if you caught one in a net, it's probably too 
dangerous.

I think that the first versions should be some sort of spider-
legged robot along the lines of some of Rodney Brooks' 
creations.  They should hide in the daytime and come out at 
night.  They should be airdropped into the rear, and they 
should be used to spy on things.  Also, if discovered, they 
should shoot every warm body they see.  Maybe even give them 
a blade or two to become an intelligent lawnmower.

The psychological implications are great.  Now, who wants to 
go on patrol tonight, knowing that if you find one of these 
things, it's going to make meat by-product out of most of 
your patrol?

I think a gadget like this is already "do-able"
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:57:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:57:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
Message-ID: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>

For anyone that might know the answer:

While working on my Mire landgrab, I have come up with a question that I hope someone on the TML might know an answer for.  (Preferably a correct one.  :-) )

What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain in order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?  The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.  Can that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without affecting Mire's orbit?

Thanks.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 14:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 13:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
Message-ID: <200204232004.EVR06043@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Mike West" asks
>
>What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must 
>maintain in order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?  
>The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny 
>sun at a distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is 
>assigned to .4 AU.  Can that second planet orbit closer 
>than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without affecting Mire's orbit?
>

I would think that would depend on the mass of the planets 
involved.  Earth is at 1 AU, so Venus and Mercury have to be 
at fractions of an AU.  They both seem to have nearly 
circular orbits, so they don't seem to be affecting each 
other in a major way.

________________
Employees smoking
Off company property
I'm doing their work

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 14:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 13:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


>> We don't have a license to do GURPS products. 
>
>You don't need one, any more than East Taiwan Metal & Plastic needs a
>license to manufacture a Ford compatible gas cap.  As long as no
>patent, trademark or copyright is infringed, one can do anything.  I
>believe that interoperability is still protected, even in the
>(horrendous) DMCA.

Whether legal or not (HIGHLY debatable) more than one lawsuit has happened=
 over just such activity. While the suit may or may not end up thrown out=
 in the long run, personally I don't have the time, resources, or desire to=
 deal with the possibility. Without an OK from SJG on the issue it ain't=
 gonna happen (and yes we have approached SJG about this already).

Hunter




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 14:28:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 13:28:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423165305.2B007279D2@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E1706qU-0005s2-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> shudson@lightspeed.ca says
> >
> >  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
> >modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a 
> >substantial public investment in infrastructure? It's called 
> >the Third World.
> >
> 
> There's a balance to be struck there.  It's possible to spend 
> too much, or make the definition of infrastructure too 
> vague.  Also, it's a good thing for governments to invest in 
> areas where venture capitalists fear to tread (rural electric 
> power, the original Internet), but it's also good to know 
> when those things should become private.
> 
> Not Exactly ObTrav: I firmly believe that instead of spending 
> money on the Space Shuttle, the government should be spending 
> on an initiative to get companies to build a low cost means 
> to get into orbit.  Any idea that could work should be on the 
> table.  Companies should get incentives for working in 
> space.  We need to get off this rock and make money, instead 
> of doing science in a tin can in orbit.

This would only work if there were viable companies that actually 
had some desire to do any form of space industry.  This is not true. 
Space is regarded (rightly) as pretty risky and (IMHO wrongly) as 
pie-in-the-sky by pretty much any large corporation you can name.  
The L-5 folks tried to get various companies interested in solar 
power sats in the 70s and early 80s and we all see where *that* 
went.

IMHO, until both the costs and the the risks are reduced *and* the 
government gives serious inventives, we will see no private space 
industry.  I'm also guessing that costs and risks will only be 
significantly reduced when NASA (or some other national space 
agency) builds a nice large space station that various companies 
can simply more their operations into.

Sadly, the only private individuals who are working hard to get into 
space are pretty darn fringe (like the nut out in Eastern Oregon who 
is building his own personal suborbital rocket) and none of them 
have enough money to make a descent show of it.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 15:06:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 14:06:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
In-Reply-To: <3CC3930A.D2B8F94D@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20423.134050.0q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Richard Wilson writes:
>>So this is the reason that starports are on the planet's surface and 
>>highports aren't as common.
>
> http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%7B1F54AEED-A34B-41
> 1B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D
>
> JOY! Hydrogen wells! JOY! That will make the Downports in systems
> without gas giants or other significant surface water so much easier to
> deal with. I can see it now...

Thing is, worlds without significant surface water may not have much
subsurface hydrogen. After all, it's the water that the bacteria *make*
the hydrogen from.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 15:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 14:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>; from trav@RPGRealms.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:24:51PM -0400
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com> <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net> <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <20020423153918.A6692@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:24:51PM -0400, Hunter Gordon wrote:
> 
> While the suit may or may not end up thrown out in the long run,
> personally I don't have the time, resources, or desire to deal with
> the possibility.

This makes me sad--that someone cannot do something which is perfectly
alright for fear of having to defend its rightness.

Of course, Mr. Miller could always state in his license terms that
Traveller licensees can only be compatible with him and themselves,
not with one another.  _That_ would be quite proper, although I'm not
certain why he'd do it.  Perhaps to ensure a market for his own books,
or something.

Incidentally, can anyone tell me if GT or T20 is required to be
compatible with Miller's future work?  By which I mean will the
licensees be required to print conversions, or is Miller explicitly
allowed to print his own?  Just curious.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
  Anulos qui animum ostendunt omnes gestemus!
  Let's all wear mood rings!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 23 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
References: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <20020424075041.A7785@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mike West wrote:
> What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain
> in order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?

That depends very much on the planets.  Their orbits could actually
overlap in distance, like those of Pluto and Neptune.  Such an
arrangement can be quite stable, because each planet keeps the other
one in position with resonance effects.  In such a case, one planet
has an orbital period that is (on average) an exact ratio of the
other, e.g. 3:2.

It's probably not even too uncommon an arrangement: despite our
current inability to detect any but the largest planets about other
stars, we have already found one system with two planets having orbits
that are not very far apart.


>  The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a
> distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.
> Can that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU)
> without affecting Mire's orbit?

Well, not without *affecting* the other's orbit, since every planet
affects every other in some small way.  Without disrupting the other,
certainly.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:06:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:06:08 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <3CC499EA.1020901@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20423.140845.6w2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> D&D may not have been pure in a mechanical sense, but like BASIC, and 
> 'You have SPAM!' it is now the de-facto standard of comparison..the 
> reason it got there is because it was 'the fustest with the mostest'.
>
> (says an old-timer who remembers back when 'September on the Net' 
> actually meant that it was, indeed, September...ahh those halcyon 
> pre-AOL, pre-Prodigy, pre-Compuserv days...)

Actually, I was on the Net before Compuserve had access to it. And on
Compuserve as well. They weren't all that bad. The sysopsa on the
Forums mostly kept folks in line. 

AOL on the other hand...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:14:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:14:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020423153918.A6692@4dv.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>
 <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <20020423153918.A6692@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <200204231817330495.D3087258@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>> While the suit may or may not end up thrown out in the long run,
>> personally I don't have the time, resources, or desire to deal with
>> the possibility.
>
>This makes me sad--that someone cannot do something which is perfectly
>alright for fear of having to defend its rightness.

Yes but unfortunately in today's environment, it is all too likely to=
 occur. Good IP attorneys are ungodly expensive, a realization I have=
 already had to deal with more than once since I entered this business.

>Of course, Mr. Miller could always state in his license terms that
>Traveller licensees can only be compatible with him and themselves,
>not with one another.  _That_ would be quite proper, although I'm not
>certain why he'd do it.  Perhaps to ensure a market for his own books,
>or something.

That is something I doubt Marc would ever considered.

>Incidentally, can anyone tell me if GT or T20 is required to be
>compatible with Miller's future work?  By which I mean will the
>licensees be required to print conversions, or is Miller explicitly
>allowed to print his own?  Just curious.

I can't speak for GT, but I assume they have a license similar to our own=
 in which we are not required to be compatible with future work by Marc.=
 Then again it would not need to be required in our case as I would happily=
 add stats to support any new material by Marc if he wished us to do so. It=
 was my choice to include CT stats (with Marc's ok) and material in our=
 products, not something required by my license. I just wanted to also=
 support CT and the reprints. 






From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:33:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:33:29 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <00cf01c1eb16$c0dab0d0$a3e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C1EB1F.0FF78DC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Okay, I asked this before but all my mail is gone in the great HD =
explosion.

I need a cover for the Diaspora Phoenix novel; there's not money =
available. We have a mockup of the cover but the actual pic needs to be =
done. Anyone care to help out?


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses

------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C1EB1F.0FF78DC0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Okay, I asked this before but all my =
mail is gone=20
in the great HD explosion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I need a cover for the Diaspora Phoenix =
novel;=20
there's not money available. We have a mockup of the cover but the =
actual pic=20
needs to be done. Anyone care to help out?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C1EB1F.0FF78DC0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
References: <3CC55510.8412.A77E03@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC5E36E.801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Well the importance of even centurions in much of that strife argues 
> for them being considered officers - very few coups in the modern world 
> are started and managed by sergeants.

Au contraire. A number of coups in Africa have been started by Non-coms. 
IIRC one of the Liberian coup leaders started as a Master Sergeant, 
wasn't he? Robert someting or another...

Also, I believe it was a number of Non-coms who started one of the coups 
against Noriega in Panama, just before the US invasion.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:47:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:47:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423165307.DA28C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020423153147.00a543e0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:19:04 -0600, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

>Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
>nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
>but it's an interesting way to look at it.

Well, that follows naturally from the idea that every adult should own and 
carry a gun.

Unfortunately, this kind of situation (at either scale) seems to require 
people who aren't stupid.  While the increased selection pressures may or 
may not eventually produce such a population, I don't think I'd like to 
experience the weeding-out process, any more than I'd like to live in his 
Coventry.  I /like/ civilization, thank you very much.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <02042316460813.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <001001c1eb19$a772e880$0f01a8c0@terry>

> After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on
video
> (hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net
> seems
> utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found
was
> a
> Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters).
> 
> Anyone have any clue?

It seems there is some discussion on the matter. Check out this link.

http://ravensbranch.tripod.com/galacticasize.html

Regards,

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020423153147.00a543e0@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231558080.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Kelly St.Clair wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:19:04 -0600, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> 
> >Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
> >nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
> >but it's an interesting way to look at it.
> 
> Well, that follows naturally from the idea that every adult should own and 
> carry a gun.
> 
Yes, but...

Guns can kill one person.  A firefight, even a large one, is over when
it's over, although some gunshot wounds don't kill immediately.

Nukes don't work that way.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:12:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020423153147.00a543e0@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <20020423165307.DA28C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423190649.00cb5d28@192.168.0.1>

At 03:40 PM 4/23/2002 -0700, Kelly St.Clair wrote:
>On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:19:04 -0600, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>>Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
>>nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
>>but it's an interesting way to look at it.
>Well, that follows naturally from the idea that every adult should own and 
>carry a gun.
>Unfortunately, this kind of situation (at either scale) seems to require 
>people who aren't stupid.  While the increased selection pressures may or 
>may not eventually produce such a population, I don't think I'd like to 
>experience the weeding-out process, any more than I'd like to live in his 
>Coventry.  I /like/ civilization, thank you very much.

I just finished reading Coventry.  Coventry was his "your right to swing 
your fist ends at someone else's nose" system.
That was America after the Second Revolution, that was civilization.
If you rejected Coventry or were denied Coventry, you were sent to the 
walled off section where the strong ruled the weak.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17A35@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

The emphatically polite Larsen:
Either that or barracks ashore for ALL personnel.  The SSNs and SSBNs have
always housed their crews ashore when the vessel is in port.  The rest of
the Navy should do the same.  Putting up with cramped living conditions
would be tolerable during deployments IF you knew you'd be returning to
barracks back in port.  As it stands now, most naval personnel live in the
factories where they work.

Mikey:
Australian DOD has always had onshore quarters for Naval personnel, or
provided rent subsidies and the like to live in town (where appropriate).
That's weird the US DOD does not...

Oh my god. 

That means Australia is more advanced than the US in Naval Living Conditions

Permission to shout bravo at an annoyingly loud volume!

PS I had a tour of our Freemantle class Patrol Boats. Apparently the washing
machines, which were designed to use sea water, never really worked so a
crewman gets saddled with laundromat duty when they pull into port, which is
only once every 6-8 weeks, and has to wash almost all the clothing of the
ship's company. They all wear these overall things and often for many days
at a time. As a civilian I often find it hard to comprehend the privations
these people have to deal with which is why it is easy for me to call them
sir or ma'am - cause they sure as hell have earned it. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <02042318594616.03729@avlendris>
References: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
 <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020423183217.00ac19d8@mail.earthlink.net>

At 06:59 PM 4/23/2002 +0100, Brian Caball wrote:
>On Tuesday 23 April 2002 17:04, William Lane wrote:
> > I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 (in fact
> > i try to pretend it never happened.)
>
>
>I think we all did that ;->

IMHO, there was precisely 1 good episode of Galactica 1980, "The Return of 
Starbuck".

Of course, IIRC it was actually an unfilmed Battlestar episode

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:41:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:41:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net>
References: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca> <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

>There are things for which it makes sense that they be state-run
>(e.g. power & water distribution, roads &c.) but not state-subsidised
>(i.e. you pay for what you burn/drink/whatever).=20

Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
bathing and sanitation...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:59:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:59:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231653550.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Stephen Tempest wrote:

> "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:
> 
> >There are things for which it makes sense that they be state-run
> >(e.g. power & water distribution, roads &c.) but not state-subsidised
> >(i.e. you pay for what you burn/drink/whatever). 
> 
> Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> bathing and sanitation...

You can lead a man to water, but can you make him bathe?

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:03:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:03:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>; from tml@stempest.demon.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000
References: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca> <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net> <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020423175758.A7026@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> 
> Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> bathing and sanitation...

That means you want the rest of the state to fund your desire to live
where it's expensive (those subsidies have to come from somewhere).
That's hardly a good thing.

Better to let living in the overcrowded city become as expensive as it
is, and then watch as people leave, thereby easing crowding.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Cloning forces us to ask some hard questions.  For example,
which person, the original or the clone, gets to wear the
goatee and be evil?                    --Stewart Nicholls

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:15:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:15:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423175758.A7026@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>

Robert A. Uhl writes:
> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > 
> > Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> > would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> > bathing and sanitation...
> 
> That means you want the rest of the state to fund your desire to live
> where it's expensive (those subsidies have to come from somewhere).

Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
being paid for by the occupants of the city.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:29:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:29:41 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8eb83b1f99b@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:49 AM -0700 4/23/02, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>This kind of economic system will ONLY work if no one has a "shit job".
>
>If I had my druthers I would spend every day writing.  I might or might
>not make any money on it, but that's what I'd do.  I do not work as a
>physicians' administrative assistant for the sheer pleasure of it.  It's
>annoying and boring much of the time, even though I believe in what we are
>doing here.

This is correct.

A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more people living on 
public assistance.  (It may not be 50%, but it will depend on what 
the level is set at).

What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a 
fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who 
think they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to 
complain that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and 
agitate for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact 
that lead to such a system in the first place, since the rationale 
that supports it can be easily used to support increases, and whether 
society wants to try and "buy" them off).

There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family 
(?).  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those 
who went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this 
is the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of 
"non-working" class in Europe....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <02042316460813.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020424002902.17680.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> wrote:
> Hey Guys
> 
> After a friend got the entirety of season 1
> Battlestar Galactica on video 
> (hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of
> the ship. The 'net seems 
> utterly void of technical specs or what have you:
> the best i've found was a 
> Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters). 
> 
> Anyone have any clue?
> 
> -Brian
> 
> 
  >>
  FOR SHAME!!!!

  BSG has a very strong 'cult' following online. try
these sites:

http://www.battlestargalactica.com/ This is Richard
Hatch/Capt Apollo's site. He's pretty much the leading
light of the effort to revive the series;

http://www.tecr.com/galactica/index.html This is the
BSG Tech Site; there are some oddities in his science,
but it's pretty good, all the same;

http://www.bsgtigger.com/stories/bsgfan.html
http://www.bsgtigger.com/stories/bsgcross.html
These two are strictly fanfic sites, aka, a
conglomeration of people who love the show, and love
to write.

It gets a little stronger every year, as more people
rediscover it, or find it for the first time.

ON RANT

And, yes, although most of the fans feel sorry for the
actors/writers, et al, from '1980', it is almost
universally despised and ignored. 

From the pilots' first airing, it stayed in the top 20
until it was canc'd.

I swear, network tv could never get it's act together.
When ABC canc'd BSG, they replaced it with 'Mork &
Mindy', which was doing pretty well at the time; not
even Robin Williams could save that time slot. 

1980 was aired 6 weeks after ABC called Glenn Larsen
into their offices and gave him the green light for a
new season...as long as it was ready in 6 weeks. 

Now, you know why '1980' sucked so bad.

OFF RANT

MACessna
  >>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:37:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:37:38 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <001001c1eb19$a772e880$0f01a8c0@terry>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204240954460.7432-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:

 Fantastic subject and at least IMTU it is not OT. As i incorporated much
from that show for MU. In fact the concept of a Battle Star flaoting
around popping in and out of jump space or seen as ships leave or enter.
Like a ghost ship. Has been a running part. My 3I has any site where
Colonial artifacts are found as a red zone.

 Oh yes i have an original Viper model and the rocket. Both in need of
repair. Bought the Galactica at a con a while back. Still in the box. Yeah
I even have a few hundred of the trading cards. Was/am a big fan of the
show. FWIW I talked to some members of the fan club right after they had
returned from the IIRC 15th anniversary con in Calif. They were at OryCon
tht year. Acording to what I was told. Glen doesn't like the 1980 either
and most fans disregard it as never happening. Best they will call it is
"Galacta-spit"

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:41:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:41:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost> <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:20:37 -0700 (PDT), Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
>great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
>money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
>putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
>retiring tomorrow.  While I don't know where all the
>money went, I know that much went to pork barrel, and
>some went to folks who never paid that much in.
>
><SNIP>

Actually, the Social Security fund was never intended to operate in
the manner you state.  Your "Instead" is, in fact, the way it was
intended to operate from the start.  If that hadn't been the case,
Social Security wouldn't have been able to start paying benefits at
its inception.

That original structure was founded on the idea that the pool of
wage-earning taxpayers would always exceed the pool of recipients.  As
the US went through the demographic surge known as the Baby Boom, the
pool of taxpayers expanded greatly while the pool of Social Security
retirees wasn't greatly increasing.

With that large surge of money going into the system, it represented
an irresistible opportunity to the politicians to expand the benefits,
which is exactly what they did (arguably, not too much of a pork
barrel).  Further, the US government also changed the law to allow use
of the Social Security surplus to pay for some of the Reagan deficits
(which, depending upon your viewpoint, might be where the bulk of the
pork might be found).

Now, as the members of the Baby Boom start approaching retirement,
there are fewer members of the pool of wage-earning taxpayers who are
paying to support a demographic bulge of retirees.  Had the government
instead simply banked the surplus at a modest interest rate, it would
not be seeing the oncoming retirement crisis (instead, we would have
had a different crisis some time ago).

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:53:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:53:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <20020424000942.7DBCE27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020424000942.7DBCE27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <27vbcu01a2v6aa5bssq5jr9je1trnjboi5@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:03:51 -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
wrote:

>Where on earth is it that people pay $400 USD for a palm pilot?  I don't
>have one, but I have never heard of anyone paying that much for one.

Except for the wireless-enabled Palms, they don't cost that much - but the
high-end Sony Cli (a licensed PalmOS box) does retail for that kind of
money.


--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:56:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:56:10 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>

From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au>

     "Australian DOD has always had onshore quarters for Naval personnel, or 
provided rent subsidies and the like to live in town (where appropriate).  
That's weird the US DOD does not..."


Mr. Hughes,

     The US DOD provides shore housing or rent subsidies for married naval 
personnel or those with children.  It's the single folk who get the sticky 
end.  In some low rent areas, single crew are able to club together and rent 
apartments or homes.  Alas, USS California's home port was NAS Alameda, 
smack dab in the middle of the SF Bay area.

     "Oh my god.  That means Australia is more advanced than the US in Naval 
Living Conditions.  Permission to shout bravo at an annoyingly loud volume!"

     Permission gladly granted!  Oz is more advanced than the World's 
Biggest Banana Republic in many areas, brewing comes first to mind.

     "...a crewman gets saddled with laundromat duty when they pull into 
port, which is only once every 6-8 weeks, and has to wash almost all the 
clothing of the ship's company. They all wear these overall things and often 
for many days at a time."

     Good grief!  Sounds as if those PBs could be detected by odor alone!  
The 42 young men in my berthing compartment had laundry done twice weekly.  
Three or four days worth of skivvies, socks, and dungarees can get rather 
"high".  Pa Whipsnade, a Korean police action vet, visited my berthing area 
once and described it succintly; "Feet and flatulence."  He professed to 
prefer any one of several foxholes he dug.

ObTrav - Why aren't stewards paid more?  Providing creature comforts for 
crew and passengers surely must be very important.  Good stewards control 
morale in the uniformed services and can lure paying high passengers to your 
nondescript Beowulf.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEODMAA.tml@downport.com>

Whether intentional or not, it still fits the textbook definition of a ponzi
scheme. And a bad idea from the start. The fact that it got bigger and
messier just follows as the night the day. Putting money away in
interest-bearing accounts would be even worse. The best thing we could do is
end the program, encourage retirement savings, roll the cost of phasing it
out into the general fund and be done with it. While we're at it, phase out
the rest of the federal retirement system and send it all private. At least
if the politicians and bureaucrats had their cookies in the jar with ours
they might be more apt to keep an eye on the Enrons and Arthur-Andersens out
there, instead of being in bed with them.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of JR Holmes
>
> Actually, the Social Security fund was never intended to operate in
> the manner you state.  Your "Instead" is, in fact, the way it was
> intended to operate from the start.  If that hadn't been the case,
> Social Security wouldn't have been able to start paying benefits at
> its inception.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700
References: <20020423175758.A7026@4dv.net> <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020423190732.A7743@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
> being paid for by the occupants of the city.

Then why subsidise?  You're forcing the well-off to pay for water and
electricity for the less well-off.  To an extent this may be
appropriate, but I wonder to what extent, exactly.  Anyone deserves
enough water for drinking to keep from dying and bathing to keep
leprosy at bay, but any more than that should be on a pay-as-you-go
basis.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and writing an exact
man.                                                            --Bacon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 12:39:15AM +0000
References: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423191108.B7743@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 12:39:15AM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> 
>      Permission gladly granted!  Oz is more advanced than the World's 
> Biggest Banana Republic in many areas, brewing comes first to mind.

?!?  Come visit Colorado sometime.  I'll take you on a tour of
breweries to make any man of refined taste want to move here.  And I
am given to understand that Oregon is our superior.

Whereas the Australian homebrewers I've encountered have uniformly
lamented the qulity of the local beer, and admitted that they--or at
least their countrymen--are most interested in brewing a high-proof
product.

> ObTrav - Why aren't stewards paid more?

Does the IN have stewards?  Ours got rid of them:-(

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There is no problem which cannot be solved by the judicious application
of firepower.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC6AF7A.14446.75EB6C@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 9:20, Paul Walker wrote:

> The welfare system should exist for two reasons,
> helping those who can't work to survive, and
> encouraging those who can work to do so. 
> Unfortunately, that is not what government officials
> use it for.  They use it as a kick-back for votes. (I
> do confess to a US-centric view of politics, but I
> would imagine it is similar.)

That doesn't seem to happen here, even tough beneficaries are a 
significant portion of the electorate. In fact the usual way of using 
them to get votes is to come up with a new way a shafting the 
unemployed without it looking like you are.

> Because the government will be likely to take more
> than they need.  Someone will present the idea that we
> can't lower the poverty level but we may not get
> enough taxes to pay next year, so we better take a
> little extra to ensure that we can pay the poverty
> level in the future.  Not to mention that we need to
> take in more taxes for our pork barrel.  
> 
> I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
> great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
> money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
> putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
> retiring tomorrow.  While I don't know where all the
> money went, I know that much went to pork barrel, and
> some went to folks who never paid that much in.

With that sort of thing it's no wonder your tax rates are highish, the 
US social spending is immense and yet in some ways there is less to 
show for it than here is in the UK, even though the US is much 
wealthier.
 
> Maybe I'm not making sense.  Suffice it to say, that I
> don't trust the government to make the right
> decisions, and the negative tax seems to put much
> trust in the government to make the right decisions.

As far as I can see it doesn't do anything that the current systems 
don't (both here and in the US) - it just does it in a more direct and 
traceable way.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:20:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:20:56 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

As an infantryman, I remember my first "short" field 
exercise, in which I didn't get a real bath or have clothes 
laundered for a mere 20 days (I've been without a bath or 
clothes washed in the field for as long as three months).

After I returned to the barracks (to "raise morale" the 
colonel had the idea that we would march back; I thought the 
real reason was to save fuel costs for the helicopters).  
This was only about 10 miles, but you work up a good sweat 
that acts like "gravy" on smelly clothes.

My roommate got back first (we were two men in a three-man 
room).  He had time to throw his stuff in the washers and get 
a shower before I got back.  He then stopped me at the 
door. "Take off your s__t out there, and then come in and get 
a shower.  You're not bringing that smelly s__t in here."

I had to run my clothes through the washer three times before 
the water would rinse clear - it was nearly solid black the 
first time around.  After I had taken my shower, the clothes 
smelled like a dead animal.  And the socks -- well, they had 
turned from issue green to black, with stuff growing on them.

After the three month stint with no bath, I just threw the 
uniforms away - the stench was incredible.

I've woken up frozen to the ground in the morning, and I've 
been hidden well enough that passing soldiers took a leak on 
me.  Twice.  (tip: never hide under the edge of bushes, 
because men feel compelled to piss there) 

Having to live with foot odor and flatulence doesn't sound so 
bad.

ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you 
can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes 
about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people 
in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek 
across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be 
more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a 
plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful 
smell to the unwashed.
________________
Employees smoking
Off company property
I'm doing their work

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:13:54PM -0400
References: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423192811.A8321@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:13:54PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> After the three month stint with no bath, I just threw the 
> uniforms away - the stench was incredible.

I wonder how much of that was a side-effect of the exertion you must
have udnergone.  I ask because as a Scout I and my brothers noted that
several camp staffers were rather proud of not showering all summer.
The pattern we detected was that for the first few days there was no
problem, then for the next several weeks they reeked to high heaven
and then they began to _lose_ the smell.  In fact, they began to smell
more like the environment than aught else.

But they _did_ launder their clothes.  So perhaps that makes a
difference.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
That's how you know you're hooked on something; when it makes you forget
to drink beer.                     --Paul Mather, commenting on The Sims

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>The pattern we detected was that for the first few days 
>there was no problem, then for the next several weeks they 
>reeked to high heaven and then they began to _lose_ the 
>smell.  In fact, they began to smell more like the 
>environment than aught else.
>

Well, until I washed when I got back, that was the case.  
After a few weeks, I couldn't smell myself, and I don't think 
that anyone could really smell me, unlike the people who 
smelled like soap.

I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago, 
and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how 
you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin 
gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.

________________
Employees smoking
Off company property
I'm doing their work

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:58:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:58:16 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:46:21PM -0400
References: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423195559.A9418@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:46:21PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> Well, until I washed when I got back, that was the case.  
> After a few weeks, I couldn't smell myself, and I don't think 
> that anyone could really smell me, unlike the people who 
> smelled like soap.

I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head hurts:-(

> I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago, 
> and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how 
> you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin 
> gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.

Interesting.  I don't think I'm ever going to get a chance to test any
of this out, though...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I once successfully declined a departmental retreat, saying that on that
day I planned instead to advance.                    --Alan J. Rosenthal

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <00cf01c1eb16$c0dab0d0$a3e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8EB60FE.39D2%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

And I'm also a  full time idiot - sorry about that post everybody.

Joe Webb 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head 
>hurts:-(
>
After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless 
they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which 
case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.

My roommate could smell me when I came back, after he had 
bathed.  

In the field after a few weeks, I could smell bathed people 
at a considerable distance if they were upwind of me.  But it 
didn't work the other way for them (if I was upwind of them).
________________
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:14:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:14:28 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
References: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV32IKcQEF2a9jE11o0001c2c0@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon wrote,

>I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago,
and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how
you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin
gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.<

That is one of my favorite movie lines.
As you note, he was joking. He was asked why he didn't bathe. His response
was that body oils, combined with sweat and dirt formed a natural barrier to
water. (He was dirty because he didn't bathe, he didn't bathe because he was
going to get dirty in a trench anyway.)
Later in the movie when they come upon a group of female Soviet soldiers, he
climbs into a hot tub with one of them fully clothed.

A really fun movie.
:)


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:18:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:18:32 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <B8EB60FE.39D2%jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B8EB62AD.39D7%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

on 4/23/02 7:05 PM, Joe Webb at jwwebb@earthlink.net wrote:

> And I'm also a  full time idiot - sorry about that post everybody.
> 
> Joe Webb 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

OK, idiot that is too fast on the draw - the original post that shouldn't
have gone was bounced.

So return to your home folks, nothing to see here (unless you count somebody
slinking under a rock a sight to see).

Joe Webb


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/23/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you
> can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes
> about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people
> in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek
> across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be
> more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a
> plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful
> smell to the unwashed.

An excellent point.  Which is why some hunters use MOPP gear to hide their
own scent.  I was always partial to Shaklee's Basic-H.  One of those
biodegradable soaps that proto-enviornmentalists (like my parents) used in
the late '70.  I don't even know if it's made anymore.  But it had no scent.
I carefully hoarded my supply for years.

(A quick search of the web shows it's still out there, though it looks
different).

I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

I've never had anyone pee on me, but I have had an unhappy policeman step
close enough to me that I could plainly make out the stitching on his Corfam
shoe in the middle of the night.  Camouflage does work.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:43:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:43:16 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8EB6984.582B5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/23/02 7:07 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> "Robert A. Uhl" says
>> 
>> I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head
>> hurts:-(
>> 
> After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless
> they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which
> case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.
> 
> My roommate could smell me when I came back, after he had
> bathed.  
> 
> In the field after a few weeks, I could smell bathed people
> at a considerable distance if they were upwind of me.  But it
> didn't work the other way for them (if I was upwind of them).

The amazing power of the nose.  After a while, it doesn't smell the stinks
it's around, but can easily detect new smells.  Quite an engineering marvel.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Combined Gurps/Megatraveller Year 1116(Long)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F110VniSnRMWuL0000016a@hotmail.com>

For your reading pleasure, I've combined the timelines from Gurps Traveller 
& Megatraveller. This is for the Year 1116, with the rest of the years 
following shortly.

Graham

========================================================================
GURPS TRAVELLER / MEGATRAVELLER TIMELINE COMPARISON.

Year: 1116

Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                           131-1116	(GURPS)
FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH

Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian was killed today when his personal gig was 
destroyed in a massive explosion of unknown origin. The gig was inbound to 
the palace from Dulinor's flagship, the cruiser Sargon, when it failed to 
change course in response to traffic control instructions, and then vanished 
in a massive fireball while in deep space.

Craft were immediately dispatched from Sargon to search for survivors, and 
were soon joined by vessels of the Imperial Navy. Search and rescue 
operations continue, but searchers acknowledge that the extremely violent 
nature of the explosion make th e possibility of any survivors increasingly 
small.

The archduke was en route to an audience with the Emperor, the subject of 
which was not available at press time. Emperor Strephon has ordered the 
Imperial Navy to take charge of a full investigation of the explosion in 
cooperation with other authorities, and has ordered Sargon and her crew into 
quarantine at the Imperial Naval base at Capital for the duration of the 
investigation. Naval vessels are in the process of tracking down any and all 
vessels that were in the area and have ordered tapes of all communications 
to and from the gig subjected to the most rigorous analysis.

The Emperor expressed his deep sadness at the news, and has sent a formal 
proclamation of his condolences to the people of the Domain of Ilelish and a 
private letter to Dulinor's wife and daughter. Funeral arrangements for the 
Archduke have not been announced.

Also killed in the blast were the Archduke's Naval aide Volante Imprey, the 
crew of the gig, and a number of other individuals. A full list of victims 
is not available at this time.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                           132-1116	(GURPS)

In a tersely-worded press release issued today, General Mueni Arap Rutan, 
commanding officer of the Imperial Guard, announced that Colonel Hiroshi 
Enera, commander of the Ilelish Regiment of the Imperial Guard, and three 
other officers of the same regimen t have submitted their resignations to 
the Emperor, effective immediately.

None of the officers could be reached for comment, and General Rutan refused 
to comment further except to say that the officers involved had all cited 
personal reasons for their resignations.

The Ilelish Regiment was serving its normal month-long period as honor 
guards in the Imperial palace when the resignations occurred, and continues 
to serve in that position. No replacements have been appointed to the 
vacancies thus created - the regiment is currently the personal command of 
General Rutan. A political motivation for the resignations is suspected, but 
no comments from anyone involved have been forthcoming.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 132-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Emperor Strephon Aella Alkhalikoi was assassinated at 1517 hours local time, 
132-1116, in the Grand Reception Hall of the Imperial Palace above 
Capital/Core. In the ensuing firefight, the Empress Iolanthe and the Grand 
Princess Iphegenia were also killed, along with the Aslan Yerlyaruiwo 
ambassador, twelve Imperial Guards, and a number of bystanders.

In the following minutes, Archduke Dulinor of Ilelish appeared before the 
cameras of the Reception Hall, claimed the crown of the Emperor by the right 
of assassination, and scattered holocrystals documenting his claim to the 
surviving crowd. He ascended the steps of the dais and sat on the iridium 
Throne briefly before leaving in the company of his bodyguard.

System Control Central reported tracking the Archduke's cruiser leaving the 
Capital system minutes later. Fleet elements are reported in pursuit.

Capital has been placed under martial law. Off-planet transportation has 
been suspended temporarily. Naval headquarters has issued a statement that 
the situation is stable and under control. Rioting is reported in the city.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 133-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The Imperial Palace above Capital has been sealed by Naval Security troops. 
Dulinor is rumored to remain concealed in the palace with a company of 
bodyguards. It remains unclear whether Dulinor fled the Capital system 
yesterday aboard his cruiser, or if he remains in the Palace. Occasional 
plasma flashes have been reported along the Grand Concourse.

Imperial officers at the scene refused comment.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 134-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Captain Sir Gerals Spirlandin, commanding the Honor Company of the 2nd 
Imperial Marine regiment, denied reports that Duke Varian, Strephon's nephew 
and heir apparent to the Iridium Throne, was killed in skirmishes within the 
Imperial Palace yesterday.

Spirlandin, 32, of Ibaru/Zarushagar, said, "The situation is under control, 
but identities of persons in the Palace remain unconfirmed."

News Service personnel have not yet been allowed inside the Palace.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 135-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Preparations for Emperor Strephon's funeral tomorrow continued without 
incident. Empress Iolanthe will be buried at the same time. Grand Princess 
Iphegenia will be buried Thirday.

The Admiralty confirmed today that the Imperial Palace has been cleared of 
disloyal elements. The apartments accorded Dulinor in the Palace have been 
retaken, with no sign of the Archduke.

The body of Prince Varian, until today heir apparent to the Iridium Throne, 
was recovered from the Imperial Palace this afternoon, and now lies in state 
alongside the Emperor in the central Hall of Nobles beneath the Moot Spire. 
Varian's funeral is scheduled for Thirday.

Crowds of mourners continue to file through the Hall of Nobles. Responding 
to the press of crowds, last minute arrangements have been made to keep the 
hall open through the night.

The Office of the Mint has suspended production of the cr1 coin pending 
coronation of the next Emperor. A generic sunburst design has been adopted 
as a temporary replacement.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 136-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Emperor Strephon and Empress Iolanthe were buried today with full state 
honors. The procession from the Hall of Nobles to the Alkhalikhoi section of 
the Imperial Park in the shadow of the Palace moved slowly and without 
incident.

Prince Lucan, Varian's younger brother, and now heir apparent to the throne, 
appeared briefly at grave side, leaving under heavy security immediately 
after the ceremony.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 137-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Following simple burial ceremonies for Grand Princess Iphegenia and Prince 
Varian, the Office of the Emperor today announced that Prince Lucan had 
formally ascended the Iridium Throne in private ceremonies in the Imperial 
Palace.

Shortly thereafter, Duke Simalr of Ushra, speaking for the Moot, charged 
that private ascension ceremonies are invalid, adding that any assumption of 
the powers of the Imperium requires the consent of the Moot.

Emperor Lucan, communicating through his seneschal, exercised the Imperial 
power to dissolve the Moot for one year. Duke Simalr of Ushra, speaking for 
the Moot, denied the legitimacy of Lucan's action in a strongly worded reply 
which was released simultaneously to the news services.

A meeting of the Moot later in the day failed to achieve a quorum. Duke 
Simalr is reported under house arrest.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                           137-1116	(GURPS)

Informed sources at the palace say that Emperor Strephon will appoint two 
new Archdukes in the coming year: Lady Isis Arepo Ilethian will be appointed 
archduchess of Ilelish, succeeding her father, the late Archduke Dulinor. 
Duke Norris Aella Alledon will be appointed the first Archduke of Deneb.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                         137-1116	(GURPS)

Prince Varian Paulo Alkhalikoi, nephew of the Emperor Strephon, announced 
today that he has decided to leave Capital on an extended vacation from the 
Imperial court.

"Life at the Imperial Court is a wondrous experience," said the prince, 
"however, I feel that I am missing an even more wondrous and varied 
experience to be had by getting away from the pressures of the palace and 
seeing more of the various societies and cultures that make up the Imperium. 
I hope to spend some time getting to know a few of the 11,000 worlds a 
little better." Varian announced no itinerary, but said he plans to try to 
travel incognito to the greatest extent possible.

The Emperor has not commented officially on his nephew's announcement, but 
indicated privately that he feels that travel cannot but help to improve 
anyone's character. Varian's brother Lucan has chosen to remain at court, 
and refused to comment on his brother's announcement, other than to wish him 
a safe journey.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                         140-1116	(GURPS)

In separate proclamations issued today, the Emperor appointed Lady Isis 
Arepo Ilethian of Dlan as Archduchess of Ilelish, and Duke Norris Aella 
Alledon of Regina as Archduke of Deneb. Formal investiture will take place 
at the palace on 001-1117. Both candidates will be present, and the Emperor 
will personally invest them with the regalia of their office, an unusual 
occurrence in view of the vast distances involved. Special task forces of 
the Imperial Navy have been dispatched to Dlan and Regina to escort the 
candidates to Capital.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                         145-1116	(GURPS)

Admiral Jori Mallory hault-Viswanath of the Imperial Navy's public relations 
branch announced today that the Navy was pursuing a number of lines of 
investigation into the explosion that killed Archduke Dulinor Astrin 
Ilethian fourteen days ago. "In cooperation with other agencies, we are 
concentrating massive resources on the investigation of the incident. We 
have recovered fragments amounting to over three-quarters of the gig (the 
largest massing over 8500 kilos, the smallest less than 200 grams) and are 
subjecting them to the most rigorous possible forensic examination. The 
gig's maintenance records have been fully examined, and every member of the 
crew of Dulinor's flagship Sargon has been interrogated. We have tracked 
down every craft that was in the near vicinity for twelve hours before and 
after the explosion. We are still not certain whether we are investigating 
an act of terrorism, a multiple homicide, or a freak accident."

Asked about the possibility that the explosion was an assassination, Admiral 
hault-Viswanath remarked that while that possibility cannot be eliminated, 
there is no direct evidence of any assassination plot. "That is one of 
several lines of investigation being actively pursued." he said, "We have 
orders from the highest level to investigate every possibility, no matter 
how remote."

Asked if remains of any of the victims of the massive explosion had been 
recovered, Admiral hault-Viswanath stated that while fragmentary remains had 
been found, none had been positively identified as those of the Archduke. 
Asked if this was unusual, other sources responded that in explosions of 
this size and power, it is unusual to find any remains at all, let alone 
anything substantial.



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               152-1116	(GURPS)

The monthly changing of the guard at the Imperial Palace took place today, 
but palace watchers say the ceremony is a little late. Imperial guard 
uniforms all look pretty much alike, especially to those unfamiliar with 
them, but a local military enthusiast whose hobby is Imperial uniforms says 
the differences are like night and day, and to her trained eyes, the Antares 
guard has been on duty for almost three weeks.

"It is fairly easy to pick out the Aslan, " says Minaro hault-Yunami, author 
of Uniforms and Equipment of the Imperial Guard, 1080-1110, " and the 
Marines are in maroon, so they stick out too. But the difference between 
Antares and Illelish is in certain details of the collar tabs and shoulder 
boards, which are pretty hard to pick out on the video screen." How does 
Minaro, who has access only to the same videos of the court as the rest of 
us ordinary citizens, know the difference?

"Every day when the Emperor enters the Long Hall on his way to the Iridium 
throne, he is preceded by an honor party of the guard. On the first day of 
the week, the honor party always wears battle dress instead of the normal 
full dress uniform. The Illelish Guard's battle dress has a black stripe 
outlining their right plastron - the Antares Guard is blank. It's a subtle 
difference, but it's there for anyone with halfway decent eyes."

What does it all mean? "It's a speculation, but I think the Ilelish Guard 
were pulled from duty so they could mourn their Archduke. It's highly 
unusual, but it's not completely unknown. The last time something like this 
happened was in the reign of Arbellatra in 632."


Jewell/Spinward Marches (1106-A777999-C)                  158-1116	(GURPS)

After months of investigation, the Office of the Judge Advocate General for 
the Imperial Navy has dismissed charges of war profiteering brought against 
Gishan Ryan Khaasira. A spokesperson for the JAG Office stated that "we have 
found no evidence to support the accusations made by certain individuals 
concerning the activities of former Lt. Khaasira during the Fifth Frontier 
War. As such, our investigation has ended and we consider the matter 
closed."

Gishan Khaasira is a former Naval intelligence officer who transferred to 
Supply after the ship on which he served, the Agidda, suffered heavy damage 
from a Zhodani attack. Khaasira then spent the remainder of the war working 
as an aide to the Quartermaster-General, Admiral Rafael Sukhamaran. It is 
because of the mysterious disappearance of several shipments of supplies 
during his tenure there that unnamed sources pointed the finger at him.

While the JAG Office has now officially cleared Lt. Khaasira of all 
wrongdoing, he has elected to resign his commission from the Navy. Khaasira 
cited the deaths of his sister during the war and of his father recently as 
the reasons for his resignation. He intends to return home and use his 
skills to rebuild his family's merchant business after years of hard times.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 200-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Unrest among the populace continues following the assassination of Strephon 
and the questionable rise to power of Emperor Lucan. Fanned by opponents 
such as Duke Simalr of Ushra, the flames of unrest have sparked rioting in 
major population centers and intense quarreling among members of the Moot.

Police and Imperial Guard troops have kept these isolated outbreaks under 
control, but their frequency and intensity are on the rise.


Vland/Vland (0307-A967A9A-F) Date: 202-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Emperor Strephon was assassinated by Archduke Dulinor of Ilelish 132-1116. 
The Central Authority issued a simple statement early today regretting the 
Emperor's death, but calling on all citizens to remain calm and remember his 
passing with dignity.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               212-1116	(GURPS)

In-system space ship traffic was snarled today when the arrival of an 
unexpected Naval courier vessel was vectored to Capital ahead of all other 
incoming vessels, causing considerable dislocation in orbital traffic 
control.

A spokesman for System Port Authority refused comment other than to state 
that the vessel had the highest military priority, and its commander 
insisted on being cleared for approach immediately. TNS reporters managed to 
locate the shift supervisor at Capi tal Far Orbit Control, who was somewhat 
more talkative on receiving assurances of anonymity.

"The transponder indicated that it was an Imperial Navy vessel," the 
supervisor said, but when the neutrino signature analysis came through, I 
recognized it as an Imperiallines TI-class. Now, a Tango Ida with a Navy 
squawker, is a little unusual. I've wor ked this duty eight years, and I've 
only seen that twice...we have a lot of TI-class ships in and out of system, 
but normally they have civilian transponders. This one demanded clearance 
straight through to the Naval Base, and we had to give it to them on account 
of the transponder priority code, even though it meant I had to spend the 
next three hours unsnarling everything." When asked what he thought it all 
meant, the supervisor winked at this reporter, and said: "Somebody had 
something they wanted to g et dirtside real fast, and they couldn't wait for 
the Xboat. Maybe Prince Lucan ordered some extra Tokay escenzia for one of 
his little parties."



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               215-1116	(GURPS)

Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian will be honored at a memorial service to be 
held in the Hall of Nobles beneath the Moot Spire on 230-1116. Because 
Dulinor's body has still not been found, mourners may view a holographic 
representaion of the Archduke, whi ch will lie in state in the Hall for 10 
days prior to the ceremony.

Emperor Strephon will deliver the main eulogy. The memorial service itself 
will incorporate aspects of the Dlani Virasan religion, but will not be a 
Virasan funeral service, as that will be held on Dlan, Dulinor's homeworld. 
Although not a follower of the Virasan faith, Dulinor was said to be deeply 
interested in its tenets, which state (among other things) that true 
believers must die a non-violent death on Dlan to attain true enlightenment.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 217-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

In the shadows of the Imperial Palace, a particularly violent clash between 
police and rioters has rocked the capital. For nearly three hours the 
skirmishes continued, as demonstrating citizens forced their way toward the 
palace against strict orders of the authorities.

Nonlethal means were finally used to disperse the crowd, but not until forty 
citizens and at least three riot policemen were killed.

A spokesman for Emperor Lucan has stated that the Emperor, though aware of 
the problem, was not concerned and did not at any time leave the palace for 
his own safety.



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               230-1116	(GURPS)

A memorial service for Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian was held in the Hall 
of Nobles beneath the Moot Spire today. Emperor Strephon, his wife Iolanthe, 
his daughter Grand Princess Ciencia Iphegenia, and the emperor's nephew 
Prince Lucan were present. The Emperor delivered the eulogy, of which the 
following are selected excerpts:

Dulinor was my friend. And Dulinor was a madman.

Harsh words? No. Rather, a tribute.

Great spirits are not normal, they are abnormal. In their ceaseless questing 
for a world which has not yet been but which they seek to bring about they 
show their alienation from the world around them. These aliens are those 
whom we call leaders, visionar ies, prophets, poets, artists - madmen. 
Dulinor was one of them, and he stood at their head.

What does it take to see the universe as it is and say it is not enough? To 
say that it can be another way that it has never been before? These are not 
the thoughts of a contented man, one who is well-adjusted to the world as he 
finds it. Well-adjusted is a compliment we throw around easily, but it is 
not a compliment that applies to a leader. Because leaders are never 
well-adjusted; they are always discontent, they always seek a universe that 
does not exist, and they strive to make that universe a reality. This 
striving is the opposite of being well-adjusted, it is madness.

In all the years I knew him, Dulinor never ceased striving, and I loved him 
for it.

Talent, we are reminded by the ancient philosopher, is the capacity for 
opposites. If so, then Dulinor was perhaps the most talented of us all. 
Cloaked in contradictions, like the black garb he wore, imposed upon him by 
a faith he did not embrace, he serv ed and defied, agreed and challenged. He 
was unpopular, and indispensable. He went to his death believing in the 
course of his life, and not caring if others understood. His life and death 
are perhaps a warning to those of talent who would follow after him, that 
the candle that burns brightest burns briefest. Let all talented madmen 
remember that the life of service comes at great cost, but let them never 
shrink from it.

Dulinor died in the blackness that he wore in life, and as in that life, 
never being fully of it, but also not rejecting it.

We will not see his like again.

Roget/Spinward Marches                  231-1116	(GURPS)

Mercenary and former member of an elite Darrian unit Htarlehtoir was today 
invested as ko (clan chief) of the Feiftiusaea Clan, one of four which 
jointly control Roget.

This is an unusual clan in that it has both Aslan and human prides; 
Htarlehtoir is the first human to act as ko for any of the four clans.


Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G)                  244-1116	(GURPS)

Sector Admiral Hutara Astrin Ilethian, brother of the late Archduke Dulinor 
of Ilelish, has announced that he is resigning his commission, effective 
immediately. In a short press release read by the admiral's newly-appointed 
aide, Lieutenant Tadashi Conacht hault-Musillo, the admiral stated that he 
is resigning in order to devote his full attention to the management of the 
family lands and business interests now that his niece has been appointed 
Archduchess in her father's place.

The admiral stated that his niece would now be busy with government duties, 
and would no longer be able to devote the time necessary to keep the various 
Ilethian family interests running properly.

Asked why the admiral had not made the announcement himself, the lieutenant 
stated that the admiral has been ill the last few days, and while he was 
well on his way to recovery, his doctors felt the added strain of a public 
appearance might delay his recovery.


Sacnoth/Spinward Marches                  244-1116	(GURPS)

The University of Sacnoth today launched an appeal for funds to purchase 
rare Aslan artifacts. Professor Elke Ragnarsdottir, leading the appeal, 
said: "Unfortunately, neither the University nor the government are willing 
to provide funding, so we must appeal directly to the public."

She continued, "These pieces are important because they may prove that Aslan 
ranged as far coreward as Mithril, centuries before they were thought to 
have reached the Marches. This is a golden opportunity to learn more about 
them, but they need to be studied scientifically, and the best chance of 
that is for the University to acquire them."

The artifacts were found on Mithril in 1106, and have since been in the 
hands of a private collector, who is now selling them to raise money for 
other projects.

Other bidders are likely to include the Darrian government and Aslan 
traders. The Darrian Embassy declined to comment on why their government 
might want to buy the pieces.

If she fails to acquire the pieces, Professor Ragnarsdottir plans to use 
whatever money is raised to mount an expedition to Mithril in the hopes of 
discovering more items at the original site.

Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G) Date: 245-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The Archduke's official state visit to Capital ended abruptly with his 
surprise return to Dlan and his immediate call for a full-media press 
conference on the steps of the palace for later in the day.

After appearing wearing an elaborately fashioned crown, the Archduke began 
his statement with a list of wrongs and abuses perpetrated by Emperor 
Strephon. He concluded with the startling statement: "The Emperor is dead! I 
have dedicated my life to the people of the Imperium. I claim the Iridium 
Throne by right of assassination, and shall rule this Imperium as Emperor 
Dulinor."

The stunned public then listened as the Emperor called for a complete 
mobilization to seize all of the Imperium for his sacred cause. He made a 
public and official request to Admiral Hutara, his brother, for the Ilelish 
Fleet to side with him in his sacred struggle to gain his rightfully secured 
place on the throne.

The Emperor Dulinor retired to his chamber without answering questions. A 
subsequent statement detailing the new Emperor's trip to Capital and the 
assassination of Strephon on the Iridium Throne itself. The statement 
concluded with an account of Dulinor's ascension of the Throne to the well- 
wishing cheers of millions of Capital's citizenry, followed by a selection 
of patriotic video cassettes.

Celebrations have been organized on Dlan and throughout the sector as the 
populace is encouraged to honor the beginning of new age for the Imperium 
and Ilelish sector.


Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G)                  245-1116	(GURPS)

Puzzled citizens of Dlan who wondered why every entertainment channel was 
airing re-runs during prime-time last night now have an answer. An unknown 
agency reserved two hours of air time last night and cancelled a week or so 
ago, without telling anyone what the reservation was for.

The Dlan Minister of Communication's office had no formal comment, but a 
high official in that office stated "Somebody's out several mega-credits. 
They reserved the time almost a year ago, and paid by a bank draft from a 
numbered account, then last wee k we got a message that cancelled the 
reservation and told us to run whatever we wanted. It was too late to try to 
sell the time elsewhere, of course, so we let individual regional managers 
decide."

Speculation is rampant in the local entertainment industry, and guesses 
range from a new holofilm technique that didn't pan out to a massive (and 
very costly) practical joke. One rumor was a news flash of great importance, 
but no one can agree on what that might have been.

Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G) Date: 248-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Sector Admiral Hutara and his fleet officers made an official announcement 
that the Ilelish Fleet has declared for Dulinor. In a brief but ancient 
ceremony, Hutara offered his dagger to Dulinor, who solemnly accepted, and 
then briefly embraced his brother.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  262-1116	(GURPS)

After months of intensive investigation, the Imperial board of inquiry into 
the explosion of Archduke Dulinor's personal gig on 131-1116 is unable to 
physically confirm that Dulinor died in the explosion, or that he was even 
aboard the gig when it was destroyed. Officially, he is still listed as 
"missing, presumed dead." They have been able to confirm that the explosion 
was no accident. So far, this has been their only conclusion.

"We have testimony from Sargon's crew that the archduke and his staff 
boarded the gig," said an unnamed source close to the investigation, "but we 
haven't been able to find a trace of remains - well, not his remains, 
anyway." According to testim ony of several of the crew, Dulinor's flagship, 
the cruiser Sargon, launched the gig with the normal crew of two plus a port 
guide from customs, Archduke Dulinor and fourteen members of his personal 
staff, and three bodyguards plus assorted baggage for the party. The 
explosion was so powerful that not a single complete body has been 
recovered, although DNA and other evidence has accounted for sixteen of the 
nineteen passengers.

"The pattern of the wreckage indicated three separate, simultaneous 
explosions, calculated to pulverize the entire passenger compartment," the 
unnamed source continued. "The explosions all originated in the compartments 
where baggage would ordinarily b e stored." Dulinor's own standing orders, 
however, provide for constant supervision of the loading process by his 
bodyguards, and further require that the security staff who guard and 
oversee loading of the gig must accompany it when it departs. If these 
requirements were followed, it would seem that at least one of the 
perpetrators was killed along with the intended victim.

The unnamed source emphasized that investigators are still not convinced 
that Dulinor was the target of the explosion, although "At this point . . . 
that's the way to bet."



Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G)                  265-1116	(GURPS)

What started as a minor protest rally at the government center on Dlan 
escalated into a major civil confrontation between police and local 
citizens. A large crowd protesting what they called the Imperial Navy's 
cover-up of events surrounding Archduke Dulinor's death assembled without a 
permit and became hostile when ordered to disperse.

More than 600 rioters ransacked offices of the Imperial Navy, the Imperial 
Interstellar Scout Service and the Office of Calendar Compliance, all 
located in the downtown Imperial office building. Local police and 
constabulary forces dispersed the crowds within a few minutes, using 
non-lethal crowd-control devices. Sixteen people, none of them police, were 
treated and released at local medical centers.

The destruction apparently was haphazard. The Naval office, which suffered 
the heaviest damage, was primarily a public-relations and recruiting center. 
At the time of the riots, only civilian employees were present.


Amdani/Daibei (2034-A727A88-E) Date: 265-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Heightened high-level conferences and military activity in the area have 
done nothing to quell rumors that Core sector is in civil unrest. Statements 
from the nobility have been universally, "No comment."

As of this date, all naval personnel have been put on special alert, all 
shore leaves have been canceled, and a complete media blackout of naval 
exercises has been imposed. The Admiralty has no comment.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  270-1116	(GURPS)

Prince Lucan Alkhalikoi, nephew of the Emperor Strephon, announced today 
that he will imitate his brother Varian and take an extended tour of the 
Imperium.

"My brother and I often discussed taking a grand tour of the Imperium 
together," said the prince, "but we could never agree on the specifics, and 
when he departed earlier this year on his own, I felt compelled to remain at 
Capital for personal reasons. I have recently decided however, that I, too, 
must become more familiar with the Imperium, although I intend to do it in a 
different way than my brother."

Prince Lucan went on to say that he has not yet completed plans for his 
trip, and that his itinerary remains open. He did confirm that he will delay 
his departure until after the archducal investiture ceremony on 000-1117, so 
that he may attend on beha lf of his branch of the Imperial family.

The Emperor had no official comment on his nephew's decision, but sources at 
the palace indicate he approves.




Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  282-1116	(GURPS)

Commo Tech First Class Gani Riisha is having trouble getting his possessions 
back from the Imperial Navy. Gani Riisha was one of the crewmembers of 
Archduke Dulinor's flagship Sargon, and his possessions are, for some 
reason, relevant to the invest igation into the explosion that killed the 
Archduke and several others on 131-1116.

"They questioned me quite intensively," Riisha said, "because I was on duty 
on the bridge when the gig blew up. I expected them to want my signal logs 
and everything official, but why do they need my uniforms and my personal 
kit? They released me from cus tody after a few days, and they've been very 
generous in supplying me with replacement clothing and such, but there are a 
number of items of a personal nature I'd like to get back. They can't even 
tell me when I can expect to see them."

Gani is not alone. While most of Sargon's crew members (and their 
possessions) have been released from custody, the Imperial Navy still 
retains the flagship itself, some of the crew's personal gear, and three 
members of the crew itself under tight security.

The Imperial Navy Public Relations Office refuses to comment, other than to 
say that the personnel and items are necessary to the ongoing investigation, 
and that the crewmembers are not suspects at this time.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  289-1116	(GURPS)

The Imperial Navy has released several transcripts relating to the death of 
Archduke Dulinor in an explosion on 131-1116. The transcripts describe 
communications between the gig and inner-system traffic control, but also 
include selections from the gig 's flight-data recorder.

The gig's last response to traffic control was at 13:22:34-131-1116, when 
the gig's pilot acknowledged and carried out an instruction to alter course. 
A short time later (13:39:48-131-1116), traffic control issued a course 
correction instruction, but the gig did not acknowledge. The gig's 
navigational transponder ceased broadcasting at 13:41:06-131-1116, which is 
within seconds of the time the gig's flight-data recorder lost contact with 
all instruments, and approximately the time several other ships in the area 
reported a bright flash from the gig's coordinates.

All in all, the data released confirms the Navy's contention that several 
near simultaneous explosions destroyed the gig, killing all aboard 
instantly. When asked about the gig's cockpit voice recorder, Navy spokesmen 
responded that the instrument was severely damaged in the blast, and that it 
was still undergoing reconstructive analysis.



Quiru/Lunion (2321)                  289-1116	(GURPS)

The gas-giant planet Plistii, in the Lunion subsector of the Spinward 
Marches, underwent a violent shudder beginning on 341-1115, causing some 
small concern for the inhabitants of Quiru, one of Plistii's satellites 
(Quiru/Lunion 2321). A panic among the world's 3,200 citizens was averted by 
quick-thinking MainLines Shipping officials, who were able to gain a few 
hours advance notice of the disturbance and stage an evacuation drill while 
the event took place.

"We got everybody in one place, within sight of the emergency evacuation 
vessels, and then told them what was going on," said a company spokesman. 
"We gave everybody the day off with pay, and started playing dance music and 
serving food. It turned into a holiday, and had things turned sour w e could 
have had everybody on the evac ships and out of there in a couple of hours."

Details are still sparse, but the event appears to have been either a 
massive storm front in the gas giant, or else some kind of "gasquake" deep 
in the giant's liquid-hydrogen core. Company officials are monitoring the 
gas giant for further events, but so far nothing other than a few minor 
aftershocks has been detected.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  292-1116	(GURPS)

TNS sources learned today that Imperial Navy intelligence operatives may 
have foiled a plot to assassinate Lady Isis Arepo Illethian. Confidential 
sources suggest that a series of arrests on Capital and elsewhere in the 
sector were a result of a long-term undercover operation combating terrorist 
activity in Core sector. According to the sources, the purpose of the 
assassination was to galvanize anti-Imperial feelings in the Domain of 
Ilelish and spark a revolt there by blaming the assassination on Emperor 
Strephon.

A spokesman for the Imperial Navy refused to comment on TNS reports about a 
plot, and would neither confirm nor deny the existence of any undercover 
operations in Core sector or elsewhere. The spokesman did state that both 
Lady Isis and Archduke Norris were traveling to Capital under a Naval 
escort, and that their precise schedules and itineraries were classified.


Amdani/Daibei (2034-A727A88-E) Date: 309-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Official announcement of Emperor Strephon's assassination has reached the 
sector. The nobility has also released a statement encouraging the populace 
to have faith in the systematic and peaceful shift of power to Strephon's 
heir, Duke Varian.

Subsequent messages from Core sector have indicated that Varian was killed 
in combat in and around the palace area. Prince Lucan is apparently the new 
Emperor of the Imperium.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 310-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Lucan announced that unrest in Core sector has been dealt with successfully. 
All citizens are encouraged to have faith in the new Emperor, despite 
unsubstantiated rival claims to the throne.

Emperor Lucan also announced that the Core Fleet is on the move towards Dlan 
to hunt down the criminal Dulinor. His actions warrant death, and he will 
certainly be brought to justice.


Terra/Solomani Rim (0207-A867A69-F) Date: 313-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

In an unexpected move, much of the Imperial Rim Fleet has been concentrated 
and many reservists have been placed on alert. No substantial explanation 
has been forthcoming.

General Yoshtiru of the Terran Home Guard has called for a high level 
command conference of the commanders of all troops stationed on Terra.


Terra/Solomani Rim (0207-A867A69-F) Date: 322-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Military installations in Asia, Africa, and North America have been closed 
to civilians. All active duty personnel worldwide have been recalled from 
leave or furlough.

An unofficial source stated that large shipments of materials have been 
arriving at these closed installations. The exact nature of the shipments is 
unknown, and no official Home Guard spokesman will comment on the issue.


Rhylanor/Spinward Marches                   324-1116	(GURPS)

Subsector law enforcement agencies and the general public were today warned 
by the Imperial Navy to be on the lookout for Miguel Casimir, also known as 
Casimir Clarke or Miguel Clarke, who is wanted for a variety of crimes 
including impersonating an Imperial officer, theft of Imperial property, 
piracy and murder.

Commander Miles Cullan of the Imperial Navy said, "Casimir -- or whatever 
name he is now using -- recently escaped from a maximum security prison at a 
classified location, killing two guards in the process. We believe that he 
will attempt to dupe loyal ci tizens into hiding him by claiming to be the 
victim of a government cover-up. Do not be deceived, this man is a vicious 
animal. "

Commander Cullan explained that because of the charges of piracy, the Navy 
has been asked to lead the investigation. He went on to say that the 
fugitive has escaped before, and on that occasion claimed to be a member of 
an Imperial Research Station, and t hat Imperial and megacorporate interests 
were pursuing him to suppress a radical new power generation technology he 
had developed after examination of Ancient artifacts. "Casimir may use this 
story again," said Cullan, "and let's be completely clear: There is 
absolutely no truth in it."

Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 330-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The ducal household announced that Duke Norris of Regina will travel to 
Rhylanor to meet with representatives from several key worlds in the 
Spinward Marches and Deneb sectors. The conference is scheduled to cover 
"economic matters", a general term used when the agenda has not been made 
public. The exact nature of the meeting has not been disclosed.

In related matters, a rumor that the Duke has recently received a private 
communication from Emperor Strephon has not been confirmed by official 
sources.


Romarr/Spinward Marches                   331-1116		(GURPS)

The ruling council of Romarr today authorized Spinward Spice & Spirits, LIC, 
to export 250 tons of dust-spice without paying the normal duties and 
tariffs.

This measure, which will allow SSS to undersell its competitors, is likely 
to save the troubled company from bankruptcy.

A company representative, Captain Mark Spencer, denied charges of corruption 
or nepotism, stating the a business case for deferred payment of duty had 
been presented to the Council and accepted by them.

When asked whether he thought the shipments were at risk from ihatei 
marauders, Captain Spencer replied that SSS would be hiring additional 
security staff.


Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 340-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The ducal household announced that Duke Norris was elevated to the rank of 
Archduke of the Domain of Deneb by the hand of Emperor Strephon on 091-1116 
in recognition of his activities in the late Fifth Frontier War.

The Duke plans a trip to Capital to personally accept the Emperor's 
blessing.


Nusku/Sol                  351-1116				(GURPS)

At the request of the Marquis of Nusku, the planetary Duma today ordered 
military protection for an archaeological dig on New Kodiak Island. 
Civilians with no connection with the scientific team have been barred from 
approaching or la nding on the island.


Duma spokesman Ian Direma stated that the Marquis had gathered information 
suggesting that the dig site was the focus of a conspiracy to loot 
archaeological relics. When pressed for details, Direma referred the 
journalists conducting the interview to Marquis Yushchenko's office. The 
Marquis could not be reached for comment.

New Kodiak Island is known to have been the location of a minor command 
center for Terran forces during the Interstellar Wars period. The Reinhardt 
Foundation has been excavating the site for three years, thus far without 
any results of interest to the general public.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  354-1116		(GURPS)

The ships carrying Lady Isis Arepo Illethian and Duke Norris of Regina 
arrived in system today. TNS has learned that the fleets, which merged at 
some unspecified point along their respective paths, actually arrived in 
Core sector some time ago, and hav e spent the intervening period in 
security isolation at an unspecified location.

A press conference is scheduled for next week, shortly before the ceremonies 
that will confirm Lady Isis as Archduchess of Ilelish and Duke Norris as 
Archduke of Deneb.



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  356-1116		(GURPS)

The Imperial Navy has issued a report on its investigation of Archduke 
Dulinor's death, ending several months of speculation. The report concludes 
that Dulinor was killed on 131-1116 when the gig on which he was a passenger 
vanished in a massive explos ion. The report further states that, in the 
opinion of the investigators, the explosion was intentional, and represents 
an act of assassination by a party or parties unknown.

Investigators could not find any remains, but DNA extracted from tissues 
recovered from the wreckage was conclusively identified as being Dulinor's. 
The report also concludes that one or more of Dulinor's assassins also 
perished in the explosion, but i s unable to reach any conclusion on whether 
this was a deliberate act of suicide.

Unofficial sources close to the investigation state that there was 
considerable controversy among investigators as to whether the DNA finally 
confirmed as Dulinor's came from his body or from medical stockpiles carried 
as part of his luggage (many nobl es travel with medical supplies cloned and 
cultured from their own tissues, but it is not known for certain whether 
Dulinor followed this practice).

The complete text of the report was delivered to the Emperor yesterday, and 
will be released to the press after a copy has been delivered to Lady Isis, 
the archduke's daughter and heir.




Capital/Core                  357-1116			(GURPS)

Informed sources within the Imperial Ministry of Justice today confirmed 
that the formal search for the assassin or assassins of Archduke Dulinor 
will be conducted by a special team formed from members of the Imperial 
Navy, the Scout S ervice, and the Ministry of Justice, among others.

No details as to membership were made available, but the sources indicated 
that the team will have nearly unprecedented investigative powers and will 
consist of top investigators from several agencies other than those named 
above.

The team will report directly to the Emperor, and has already begun 
operations based on the Imperial Navy's investigation into the explosion of 
131-1116, which killed the Archduke and the crew of his personal gig.


Aristotle/Solomani Rim (1740-A269985-E)                  360-1116		(GURPS)

The Confederation Navy today announced the conclusion of their quadrennial 
SWIFT RETRIBUTION XXIV readiness exercise. "Civilian traffic in the Gemini 
Subsector may safely return to normal operations," said Commissioner Ignacy 
Aszykkrol , public affairs spokesman for Doan Naval Base. "We are aware of 
the inconvenience these maneuvers cause," he continued, "but the price of 
freedom is eternal vigilance." Commissioner Aszykkrol refused to comment on 
the nature of the exercise or the elemen ts involved, saying only that the 
event had been "entirely satisfactory, good training and a complete 
success."

Later, Lloyd's of London and the Traveller's Aid Society issued a joint 
bulletin rescinding the subsector-wide Amber travel advisory posted for 
Gemini Subsector on 060-1116.


Capital/Core                  364-1116			(GURPS)

Despite the Imperial Navy's conclusions to the contrary, a small number of 
people believe that Archduke Dulinor is still alive. Almost from the start, 
according to sources in the Ministry of Justice, reports of the Archduke's 
survival were received, although the vast majority of them could be 
dismissed by investigators after minimal investigation

An anonymous source reveals that almost a thousand separate reports of 
"Dulinor sightings" were filed with the Imperial Navy, and that more than 
two dozen investigators were assigned to follow them up. Every report was 
found to be without factual basis , but this has not prevented the growth of 
persistent rumors that Dulinor either survived the explosion of Sargon's gig 
or was never aboard the vessel to begin with.

"A lot of people see someone they think resembles the late Archduke," our 
source said, "and let their imaginations run away with them." Evidently, 
many of the "sightings" occurred almost simultaneously in locations 
separated by several parsecs. Even the most outrageous reports were 
completely investigated, our source assured us, and all of them proved to be 
". . . a waste of time and resources."



Lanth/Spinward Marches (1719-A879533-B)                  365-1116	(GURPS)

An Imperial board of inquiry has declared the 10,000-dton passenger liner 
S.S. Sundance lost with all hands. The Sundance, one of Al Morai's Sunfarer 
class of luxury express liners, has been missing since she fail ed to make 
her scheduled planetfall at Lanth on 118-1114, en route from Regina to Mora. 
She was carrying 3,084 passengers (2,054 in cold sleep), 577 crew, and 419 
dtons of cargo when she left Ghandi/Spinward Marches (1815-B211455-A) on 
110-1114. The loss is officially listed as "cause unknown; presumed 
misadventure."

This ruling paves the way for the settlement of claims brought by Sundance's 
shippers and passengers' next of kin. Al Morai officials steadfastly deny 
allegations of improper maintenance or use of unrefined fuel as possible 
explanations for the ship's disappearence, citing their excellent 
operational record and impeccable safety rating from the Imperial Grand 
Survey.


Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

Speaking on condition that he not be quoted, a retired officer of the 
Imperial Interstellar Scout Service confirms that there may be a kernel of 
truth behind Colonel Ruys de Bessier's allegations that Imperial POWs are 
still within the Zhodani Consulate but that they are there of their own 
volition.

"I won't even begin to summarize the reasons, but in almost every war a 
certain number of people perform what might be considered questionable acts 
and are hesitant about returning home . . . some of them take advantage of 
the chaos of war to assume new identities, others simply take a liking to 
their new home and decide not to leave." The officer stopped short of saying 
any Imperials were guilty of treason, but offered the following: "Imperial 
intelligence knows that a number of serving members of the Imperial military 
during the Fifth Frontier War were Zho sympathizers. I think that is pretty 
much what we have here."

The officer concluded: "It doesn't make sense anyway . . . why would the 
Zhos keep POWs this long after the war? You can spin all sorts of crackpot 
conspiracy/espionage scenarios, but most of these are fodder for cheap 
action/adventure holos."



Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

Former Imperial Army Intelligence officer Colonel Ruys de Bessier alleged 
today that the Zhodani Consulate continues to hold POW's captured during the 
Fourth and Fifth Frontier Wars. Colonel de Bessier recently resigned from 
the Imperi al Army citing "matters of conscience."

During a hastily-organized press conference today, Colonel de Bessier 
presented what he described as "overwhelming evidence that many of our 
comrades continue to languish in Zhodani prisons. This is a travesty of 
civilized behavior, and I, for one , refuse to keep silent any longer."

Colonel de Bessier maintains that from 2,000 to as many as 10,000 Imperial 
personnel are held at a number of locations within the Zhodani Consulate, 
and that seven of these locations have been "positively identified." Colonel 
de Bessier refused to disclose by what means these identifications were 
made.

Imperial Military sources declined to comment on these allegations.

A spokesperson for the Zhodani Consulate described the allegations as 
"laughable and lamentable" and "yet another impediment to lasting peace" but 
refused further comment.


Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

General Mueni Arap Rutan, commanding officer of the Imperial Guard, 
announced the appointment of Colonel Murnas De&#8217;Angelo as commander of the 
Ilelish Regiment of the Imperial Guard. The appointment of Colonel 
De&#8217;Angelo, former executive officer of the Antares Regiment of the Imperial 
Guard, finally fills the vacancy created with the retirement of Colonel 
Hiroshi Enera earlier this year. The regiment spent the intervening time 
under the personal command of General Rutan.

There remain three other vacancies in the Ilelish Regiment, also created by 
unexpected retirements earlier in the year, but neither General Rutan nor 
Colonel De&#8217;Angelo would comment on how soon those positions would be filled.


Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

The Imperial Navy has finally returned the personal possessions it impounded 
from Commo Tech First Class Gani Riishao earlier this year. Riisha was on 
duty on Sargon's bridge on 131-1116, when the gig containing Archduke 
Dulinor exploded, killing all aboard.

Gani received no explanation from the Navy, other than a short letter 
apologizing for any inconvenience he may have suffered, and inventorying his 
possessions.

"Nothing seems to be missing," Gani said, "But they still haven't told me 
why the kept everything for so long. I'm more than a little curious."



Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

In a short press release issued today, Prince Lucan, nephew of Emperor 
Strephon, announced that he has changed his mind about embarking on a tour 
of the Imperium.

"My application to the Imperial Naval Academy has been accepted," said the 
prince, "and I will serve a term as an officer upon my graduation." Lucan 
explained that he had been too hasty in announcing his intention to embark 
on a grand tour, and decided , after considerable thought, that he did not 
want to imitate his brother Varian too closely. "I have always been taught 
that each of us must chart his own course." Lucan said, "and I finally 
concluded that I had been too hasty in my earlier decision."

Emperor Strephon had no comment on his nephew's decision, except to state 
that he would support Lucan's decision.


Antares/Antares                  365-1116			(GURPS)

In a joint press conference at the archducal station of Cerise, Archduke 
Brzk and Adkhar Shirushi, head of the sector's Church of the Stellar 
Divinity, announced that the Star of Jyestha will be sent on tour throughout 
the Imperium. Th e Star is a religious artifact believed to have belonged to 
Jyestha Yerubid, the founder of the Church during the days of the First 
Imperium. As there are many autonomous churches of this faith throughout the 
Imperium, this gesture on the part of the Anta rean church is of 
considerable importance.

An itinerary and timetable for the Star's journey has yet to be completed, 
but both Archduke Brzk and Shirushi agreed that it would be present on 
Capital in time for the festivities surrounding the emperor's Golden 
Jubilee.


Jesedipere/Spinward Marches                  365-1116	(GURPS)

A cell of the anti-Vargr group Superioriti has sprung up on this backwater 
world of the Spinward Marches. For the past ten years, Jesedipere has been 
home to an increasing number of Vargr refugees fleeing the depredations of 
the Kforuz eng corsair band. Because of the world's lack of a central 
government, clashes between its original human inhabitants and the Vargr 
newcomers are common. The rise of Superioriti will only exacerbate the 
situation.

The commander of the local Scout base, Nanda Theiss, has attempted to act as 
a mediator between the groups, but to little avail. She stated that "the 
situation is worsening and I fully expect larger-scale violence to erupt if 
something is not done."




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:51:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:51:06 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:35PM -0400
References: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423204938.A10385@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:35PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless 
> they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which 
> case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.

Interesting.  One of my favourite treats is apricot snuff (the nasal
sort, natuerlich).  Oddly enough, it has no aroma indoors, but if one
steps outside it's really quite powerful, as though one has crammed a
pair of apricots up one's nose, one in each nostril.  Really quite
incredible how something can have no smell and an amazingly powerful
smell, depending simply on the surroundings.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a
reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating
the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for
independence.         --Charles A. Beard (1874-1948), U.S. historian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/23/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you
> > can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes
> > about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people
> > in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek
> > across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be
> > more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a
> > plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful
> > smell to the unwashed.
> 
> An excellent point.  Which is why some hunters use MOPP gear to hide their
> own scent.  I was always partial to Shaklee's Basic-H.  One of those
> biodegradable soaps that proto-enviornmentalists (like my parents) used in
> the late '70.  I don't even know if it's made anymore.  But it had no scent.
> I carefully hoarded my supply for years.

I'm so glad I have all you people to tell me these things.  They are NOT
things I'd ever want to find out on my own!

(I loathe getting dirty and am famous for the line, "if you expect me to
have sex with you we'd better be sleeping someplace with indoor
plumbing.")

I'd probably smell from miles away to the unwashed.  I never use anything
but Shiseido "Taiyou no Megumi" liquid body soap, which has orange, lemon
and yuzu extract in it and has quite a strong citrus smell.  The fruit
acids are good for my oily skin, and it wakes me up in the morning <G> but
no one's ever complained about it because it has no synthetic perfumes in
it.  The same goes for my shampoo, which has camellia oil in it and is the
thing that enables me and many other women to keep their long, straight
hair long and straight and shiny.

> I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
> more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
withstanding!

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:11:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:11:16 2002
Subject: Field Life (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC62145.B5492FFB@premier.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> on 4/23/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> >
> > ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you
> > can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes
> > about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people
> > in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek
> > across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be
> > more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a
> > plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful
> > smell to the unwashed.

For shorter field exercises (too short to become accustomed to field
funk), I found that Deep Woods Off (r) insect repellent was useful in
masking said field funk (when sprayed liberally on both self and
uniforms).  Of course, DWO (r) (even the so-called "non-scented"
variety) would no doubt be easily smelled by someone who _had_ become
accustomed to field funk (since acclimation to natural odors is often
accompanied by sensitization to artificial odors).  Yet another reason
why being a REMF in the field is unusually hazardous....

<<snip>>
> 
> I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
> more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

Hmmm, let's see.  The light from a cigarette lighter can be seen from
way-far away, the smell can be detected from way-far away (downwind,
anyway), the sound of a metal cigarette lighter snapping open or shut
carries for several hundred meters in quiet conditions and the increased
heat created by taking a drag off a cigarette makes the whole head glow
like a lantern when viewed through night-vision devices.

All we need to add are taste and touch for a five-senses symphony of
detection. ;-)

And all this is at TL-7/8 (for the increased sensitivity of the Mk I
Human Sensor Array, it's TL-0).  Imagine how easily a smoker can be
spotted at TL-12+.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8EB6FA1.5837F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 6:05 PM, James Ramsay at quakers_united@yahoo.com.au wrote:

> QUOTE
> The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
> civilians.  It has little or no military application,
> contrary to popular mythos.
> END QUOTE
>=20
> True. But......
>=20
> They don't like it up 'em mister mainwaring, they
> don't like it up 'em ;)
>=20
> James

Which reminded me of Robert Service and this little ditty:

When first I left Blighty they gave me a bay'nit
And told me it 'ad to be smothered wiv gore;
But blimey! I 'aven't been able to stain it,
So far as I've gone wiv the vintage of war.
For ain't it a fraud! when a Boche and yours truly
Gits into a mix in the grit and the grime,
'E jerks up 'is 'ands wiv a yell and 'e's duly
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

=A0=A0=A0Left, right, Hans and Fritz!
=A0=A0=A0Goose step, keep up yer mits!
=A0=A0=A0Oh my, Ain't it a shyme!
=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

At toasting a biscuit me bay'nit's a dandy;
I've used it to open a bully beef can;
For pokin' the fire it comes in werry 'andy;
For any old thing but for stickin' a man.
'Ow often I've said: "'Ere, I'm goin' to press you
Into a 'Un till you're seasoned for prime,"
And fiercely I rushes to do it, but bless you!
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

=A0=A0=A0Lor, yus; DON'T they look glad?
=A0=A0=A0Right O! 'Owl Kamerad!
=A0=A0=A0Oh my, always the syme!
=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

I'm 'untin' for someone to christen me bay'nit,
Some nice juicy Chewton wot's fightin' in France;
I'm fairly down-'earted -- 'ow CAN yer explain it?
I keeps gettin' prisoners every chance.
As soon as they sees me they ups and surrenders,
Extended like monkeys wot's tryin' to climb;
And I uses me bay'nit -- to slit their suspenders --
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

=A0=A0=A0Four 'Uns; lor, wot a bag!
=A0=A0=A0'Ere, Fritz, sample a fag!
=A0=A0=A0Oh my, ain't it a gyme!
=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEODMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEODMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <548ccucmeghot0o03arn2ncsi1vctsa0qf@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 21:06:30 -0400, "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> wrote:

>Whether intentional or not, it still fits the textbook definition of a =
ponzi
>scheme. And a bad idea from the start. The fact that it got bigger and
>messier just follows as the night the day. Putting money away in
>interest-bearing accounts would be even worse. The best thing we could =
do is
>end the program, encourage retirement savings, roll the cost of phasing =
it
>out into the general fund and be done with it. While we're at it, phase =
out
>the rest of the federal retirement system and send it all private. At =
least
>if the politicians and bureaucrats had their cookies in the jar with =
ours
>they might be more apt to keep an eye on the Enrons and Arthur-Andersens=
 out
>there, instead of being in bed with them.

To their credit, at least some of the US politicians have recognized
these arguments and their electoral popularity quite some time ago.
At first, it was just the laws which permitted the creation of tax
deferred retirement accounts (known as Individual Retirement Accounts,
IRAs), which not only allowed, but encouraged a sensible wage earner
to plan for his own retirement.

And, before we get too far into US tax and social debate, I'll leave
further discussion aside.

ObTrav:  Is it any wonder that this isn't a topic discussed in regard
to Law Levels or Government type.  This is almost as sensitive a topic
as Theocracies or Dictatorships.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:22:18 2002
Subject: Field Life (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
In-Reply-To: <3CC62145.B5492FFB@premier.net>
Message-ID: <B8EB727B.58385%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/23/02 8:06 PM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:

> 
> And all this is at TL-7/8 (for the increased sensitivity of the Mk I
> Human Sensor Array, it's TL-0).  Imagine how easily a smoker can be
> spotted at TL-12+.

If a high tech sensor picked up trace elements from tobacco, it's gurantees
that sophs are about (The US government's attempts to get dogs to smoke
notwithstanding).
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:26:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:26:48 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
References: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org> <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20020423183217.00ac19d8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC62532.4060905@yarranet.net.au>

Jimmy Simpson wrote:

> At 06:59 PM 4/23/2002 +0100, Brian Caball wrote:
> 
>> On Tuesday 23 April 2002 17:04, William Lane wrote:
>> > I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 
>> (in fact
>> > i try to pretend it never happened.)
>>
>>
>> I think we all did that ;->

If you wanted to forget Galactica 1980 you should have lived here in oz 
where they never showed it. I only found out it even existed about 5 
years ago.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20423.202030.2k6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I think that the first versions should be some sort of spider-
> legged robot along the lines of some of Rodney Brooks' 
> creations.  They should hide in the daytime and come out at 
> night.  They should be airdropped into the rear, and they 
> should be used to spy on things.  Also, if discovered, they 
> should shoot every warm body they see.  Maybe even give them 
> a blade or two to become an intelligent lawnmower.
>
> The psychological implications are great.  Now, who wants to 
> go on patrol tonight, knowing that if you find one of these 
> things, it's going to make meat by-product out of most of 
> your patrol?
>
> I think a gadget like this is already "do-able"

A story in analog during the Vietnam war had a similar idea. A low
flying (treetop skimming) armed drone "plane" that was *very* quiet.

It'd come upon a group of VC or the like and shoot the most aggressive,
dedicated members. The rumor was that it had a "telepathic gunsight".

The real explanation was that it was programmed to fire on anybody who
shot at it! Anybody who has the presence of mind to fire at something
like this when surprised by it is *definitely* someone you want to
kill. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <DAV43ywkGmY8TkomDt500003bb3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20423.201805.9j0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being tried
> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

There were several stories along that line. One was titled "Brillo"
(they named the robot that because it was "metal fuzz" :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:13:17 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEDKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20423.204803.3O9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>>
>> No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
>> homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
>> sex isn't a sin.
>
> You misstate the RR POV, which says there is no *being* in the equation.
> That would suggest something physical. They tend to deny causation outside
> of the fallen (sin) condition. You correctly stated the RCC position, which
> like the jewish view holds that only the act is condemnable.

Yes, and I was replying to a comment that *specificly* mentioned the
Catholic Church. And used "Church" rather than "Christians" to convey
that.

I wasn't talking about the RRR (Radical Religious right) position. Nor
did the section of the post I was replying to. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus> <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

 >
 > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
 >
 > On 4/23/2002 at 5:05 PM ondy wrote:
 >
 >
 >> Love the cover! Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the
 >> pdf will be somewhat better. I will be buying this.
 >>
 >
 > The jpgs don't do it justice really, so I just posted a
 > 4-page PDF sample also. Same pages, but you get a better
 > look at the layout!
 >
 > http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001s.pdf

Hunter,

The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.

Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
into a single product for your Aide line?

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] High Guard to GT Conversion: Tigress DN
Message-ID: <3CC5EF23.19744.FC0AC1@localhost>

--Message-Boundary-8749
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body

Heres my first attempt at converting my all time favorite CT design



--Message-Boundary-8749
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-disposition: inline
Content-description: Attachment information.

The following section of this message contains a file attachment
prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system,
you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

   ---- File information -----------
     File:  TL12 500,000-ton Tigress-class Dreadnought.htm
     Date:  23 Apr 2002, 23:30
     Size:  6305 bytes.
     Type:  HTML-text

--Message-Boundary-8749
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--Message-Boundary-8749--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:36:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:36:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
 <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <200204240037330379.D4645864@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>Hunter,
>
>The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
>concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
>printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
>that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
>likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.
>
>Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
>into a single product for your Aide line?

It depends on what changes would be needed for a specific on-screen version.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20422.182252.6Q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 19:23
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism

In mail you write:

> If anyone in the Portland/Vancouver area that is on this list hears
> about any job that could use someone good with computers or telecom,
> please email me off-list.

I'm trying to scrape by until I can sell some property. Alas, it looks
like I need to spend several hundred bucks I can't afford just to make
the property likely to sell... :-(
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the reply, Leonard.  Everytime I see people on the street
corners with signs, I think to myself that "someday, that will be me".
I think our economy is too sick to recover.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>; from j-man@attbi.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:43PM -0700
References: <20422.182252.6Q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <20020423231739.A10823@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:43PM -0700, J-Man wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the reply, Leonard.  Everytime I see people on the street
> corners with signs, I think to myself that "someday, that will be me".
> I think our economy is too sick to recover.

Don't worry--no economy is too sick to recover.  This ain't the Great
Depression (thankfully: do _any_ of us want to make our children
miserable with tales of the beginning of the century?).  I rather
think that things are in the slow beginnings of a turn-around.  What
really worries me is the war.  Wars wreck havoc on economies.  The
reasons that the Great War and WWII did not on ours (ask Germans how
the 20s and late 40s were) is that in both we had a good supply of
folks to whom we were the only producers around.

Look at the '70s; at the early '90s.  What worries me is that our
current war is going to make the late '00s nasty indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DAV39YAPNXRPmcarcR4000047a2@hotmail.com>

> >> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being
> tried
> >> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce
the
> >> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
> >> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

> >Not off-hand, but that sounds like one of Harry Harrison's from _War
> >with the Robots_.

> Isaac Asimov, The Caves of Steel, circa 1952.

> Wan't that called 'Brillo' ?

Leading to the next natural question:  How many times has this storyline
been done?

FWIW I think 'Brillo' is the one I had in mind when I originally posted.
Wouldn't bet money on it though.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:39:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:39:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV128tG4tOlxlMWvaw00024086@hotmail.com>

> My favorite robot policeman is ED-209.

Gotta love ED-209.

<snip about Autonomous Robot Infantry>

Presumably biological friendlies on the ground in the ARI op area would
carry some kind of IFF transponder to keep from being carved up by their own
'bot.

Now _there's_ a piece of equipment you'd hate to see manufactured by the
lowest bidder <G>.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 00:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 23:34:03 2002
Subject: Public Health (was Re: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <20020424000942.7DBCE27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E170GLO-0004sI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > 
> > Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think
> > it would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> > bathing and sanitation...
> 
> That means you want the rest of the state to fund your desire to live
> where it's expensive (those subsidies have to come from somewhere).
> That's hardly a good thing.

How about funding sanitation for public health reasons?  Even if 
only 5% of the people lack adequate water for sanitation and must 
crap in the street, the disease risk is increased for *everyone*  
public health measures are a common good that is far more 
effective if everyone has access to it, just like vaccination.  The 
pandemics that swept the entire world for milllennia ended for a 
reason.  This reason was a combination of state-sponsored public 
health measures (for dyptheria, typhus and similar bacterial 
diseases) and vaccination (for viruses like polo and smallpox).  If 
these efforts were privately run then the vaccinations might still 
help many people, but the risks of a vaccine that only lasts a 
decade or two (ad many do) would be far higher and public health 
measures would not protect people nearly as well.  

ObTrav:  Have the PCs visit a amber or red zone world (likely the 
only worlds in the Imperium without at least access to basic 
medical tech) with old style epidemic disease, and have the visit 
occur during an outbreak.  The history of the old pandemics was 
horrifying and even if the PCs were immune, life would be rough 
(especially if anyone figured out they were immune).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 00:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 23:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote

> What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a 
> fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who think
> they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to complain
> that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and agitate
> for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact that lead
> to such a system in the first place, since the rationale that supports
> it can be easily used to support increases, and whether society wants
> to try and "buy" them off).

I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.
 
> There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family (?).
>  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those who
> went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this is
> the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of
> "non-working" class in Europe....

Given how rapidly automation is advancing (much modern office 
work will be obsolete in under 20 years), we are almost certainly 
going to have a combination of increasing GNPs *and* an 
increasing number of people out of work in the entire First World.  
Why should they not share in the bounty of an economy that no 
longer has need for (and in fact, likely cannot deal with) for 
everyone to be employed.  

Look at www.technocracyinc.org for some unusual ideas (that I 
agree with) on this front.

Ob Trav: I wonder how many High Tech worlds in the Imperium 
have large unemployed populations.  Finding a way into space on a 
tramp freighter and Imperial service are likely popular ways around 
this lack of on-world work.


-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 01:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 00:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700
References: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com> <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020424010057.A11114@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
> that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.

Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from
firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure
they often use are suicides.  They also fail to mention that at least
three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other
criminals in disputes over illicit drugs,+or police shooting criminals
engaged in felonies.  Subtracting those, we are left with no more than
3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 01:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 00:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204240723.AAA08458@ping.iii.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

>On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> 
>> Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
>> being paid for by the occupants of the city.
>
>Then why subsidise?  You're forcing the well-off to pay for water and
>electricity for the less well-off.

The issue at hand was sanitation, and the reason is simple: good sanitation
and the like is in everyone's interest.  Do you really want sewage pooling
in your neighbor's yard because he can't or won't pay to clean it up?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 01:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 00:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com> <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and that
> it soon will be be one in much of the First World.

Despite living in a country that subsidises its unemployed to a higher
standard of living than its part-time workers, I couldn't agree with
you less.  A guaranteed income is a luxury that a first-world country
can afford, and may even become an entitlement of citizenship, but it
is far from a fundamental right.

Fundamental rights pertain only to things that you may not have taken
from you.  All else is merely benefits or entitlements of a particular
society.


> Given how rapidly automation is advancing (much modern office work
> will be obsolete in under 20 years), we are almost certainly going
> to have a combination of increasing GNPs *and* an increasing number
> of people out of work in the entire First World.

I partially agree with you.  Not on the subject of the obsolescence of
office work; that's been projected "in 20 years" for as long as cheap
and abundant fusion power has, for much the same reasons.

Increasing GNPs, certainly.  Increasing unemployment, possibly.  More
people deciding that they can support themselves in comfort on less
work, yes.  If it wasn't for the government's anti-incentives, I'd be
working comfortably in a part-time job now instead of deciding whether
I'd rather work full-time with buckets of cash and no time to spend
it, or not work at all and have heaps of time to pursue open-source
programming but not save any money.


> Why should they not share in the bounty of an economy that no longer
> has need for (and in fact, likely cannot deal with) for everyone to
> be employed.

An economy can *always* deal with more workers, if left to market
forces.  If there's a surplus of any labour, skilled or unskilled,
wages for those workers can drop until goods or services become viable
to take up all the surplus.  However, quite understandable political
interests and regulations get in the way in practice.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 03:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Wed Apr 24 02:25:02 2002
Subject: Only a month late but --- was Re: [TML] Who are we?
Message-ID: <1B52330D-5764-11D6-B7BF-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

100+ Digests to catch up on...

Is anyone archiving these? ;-)

Name: Dominic Mooney
Age: 30
Country: UK (currently time sharing between Leeds and Liverpool)
Favorite version of Traveller: T4.1 playtest with HG2 for ships, MT as 
fallback
Military Service: None
Favorite Supplement: High Guard 2, Hard Times, Milieu 0 Campaign, 
mumble-mumble Rim of Fire, Far Trader
Favorite Sector: Solomani Rim
Favorite Race: Zhodani
Favorite Empire: Solomani Confederation
Favorite Worlds: The Promise Subsector ones during Hard Times


---------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com----------
     MacOS X 10.1 - Unix with Style
"Reality, is something that you rise above..
We don't see things as they are,  we see them as we are."
Rich - Marillion - .com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 04:08:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 24 03:08:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424010057.A11114@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204241231200.20326-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

(This seems too much off-topic, I will continue this only on tml-chat, but
will not forward this there, because Robert is not there.)

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
> > that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.
> Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

Well, considering that advancing technology seems to require less and less
labor to work it, I think that we will have more and more unemployed
people in the future. 

Not everybody is capable of working in a service profession. 

This _is_ a big problem. Hopefully we will make up something...

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231704.EVL07840@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC73DFE.1550.56B779@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 13:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST 
> series is that everyone is an officer.

That didn't bother me in the slightest, seeing as there were often 
engineering officers doing what we'd have ratings employed at. 
Obviously the later Star Trek period saw a lot of 'job inflation' in 
the Federation. Probably some bureaucrat thought it'd help morale or 
recruitment if everyone in Starfleet got to be an officer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74248.6442.6778E7@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 15:52, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Of course, you can't beat an autonomous robot infantryman for 
> sheer terror.  It's probably a bit harder to kill than a real 
> infantryman, and it's probably a much better shot. And if you 
> manage to kill it, all you've done is trash some electronic 
> parts.  Not very satisfying.  And you probably can't capture 
> one - even if you caught one in a net, it's probably too 
> dangerous.
> 
> I think that the first versions should be some sort of spider-
> legged robot along the lines of some of Rodney Brooks' 
> creations.  They should hide in the daytime and come out at 
> night.  They should be airdropped into the rear, and they 
> should be used to spy on things.  Also, if discovered, they 
> should shoot every warm body they see.  Maybe even give them 
> a blade or two to become an intelligent lawnmower.
> 
> The psychological implications are great.  Now, who wants to 
> go on patrol tonight, knowing that if you find one of these 
> things, it's going to make meat by-product out of most of 
> your patrol?
> 
> I think a gadget like this is already "do-able"

Pity they'll be rather vunerable to man-portable EMP generators, which 
can be made really cheaply.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:42:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:42:38 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC5E36E.801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CC74249.2877.6779B3@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 15:42, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> > Well the importance of even centurions in much of that strife argues 
> > for them being considered officers - very few coups in the modern world 
> > are started and managed by sergeants.
> 
> Au contraire. A number of coups in Africa have been started by Non-coms. 
> IIRC one of the Liberian coup leaders started as a Master Sergeant, 
> wasn't he? Robert someting or another...
> 
> Also, I believe it was a number of Non-coms who started one of the coups 
> against Noriega in Panama, just before the US invasion.

Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are by officers in the 
Captain to Colonel range, with the next group being those run by 
Generals, though these are quite often one General replacing another 
and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have to do more 
reading, methinks.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:45:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:45:25 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8eb83b1f99b@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74249.9558.677A81@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 17:26, David P. Summers wrote:

> A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more people living on 
> public assistance.  (It may not be 50%, but it will depend on what 
> the level is set at).

Curiously even though this is effectively the case in this country 
unemployment and beneficiary numbers are more dependant on other 
factors than on how much money is paid out to 'dole bludgers' and I 
very much doubt that this would change unless quite a lot more money 
was paid to them.
 
> What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a 
> fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who 
> think they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to 
> complain that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and 
> agitate for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact 
> that lead to such a system in the first place, since the rationale 
> that supports it can be easily used to support increases, and whether 
> society wants to try and "buy" them off).
> 
> There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family 
> (?).  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those 
> who went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this 
> is the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of 
> "non-working" class in Europe....

Until the economy is in a state where the demand for labour is such 
that industries are short of it and people are still refusing to work 
it really doesn't matter if some (or most) of the people not working 
aren't because they can't be bothered.

However I do agree that if the level of support is high enough some 
people will chosse to simply not bother to work. In fact it can be )and 
is) arguned that the level of support to solo parents in this country 
is at that level.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:48:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:48:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019586447.9084.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204231803.g3NI3xJ17762@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3CC74248.24093.67780F@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 11:27, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Steven Hudson writes:
> 
> >   ObTrav: the IN is _the_ crucial piece of the 3I's public 
> > infrastructure; the Throne maintains an effective monopoly
> > on its own ownership. Right?
> 
> Well, by definition the IN is only controlled by the Imperium.  However, the
> Throne does not have an effective monopoly on interstellar naval forces.
> 
> However, the other public infrastructure controlled by the throne is just as
> crucial (though, once again, not a monopoly).  That's starports.

Likewise the X-boat system and the survey apparatus, though again these 
aren't a monoploy.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com>
References: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 19:29, JR Holmes wrote:

> Actually, the Social Security fund was never intended to operate in
> the manner you state.  Your "Instead" is, in fact, the way it was
> intended to operate from the start.  If that hadn't been the case,
> Social Security wouldn't have been able to start paying benefits at
> its inception.
> 
> That original structure was founded on the idea that the pool of
> wage-earning taxpayers would always exceed the pool of recipients.  As
> the US went through the demographic surge known as the Baby Boom, the
> pool of taxpayers expanded greatly while the pool of Social Security
> retirees wasn't greatly increasing.
> 
> With that large surge of money going into the system, it represented
> an irresistible opportunity to the politicians to expand the benefits,
> which is exactly what they did (arguably, not too much of a pork
> barrel).  Further, the US government also changed the law to allow use
> of the Social Security surplus to pay for some of the Reagan deficits
> (which, depending upon your viewpoint, might be where the bulk of the
> pork might be found).
> 
> Now, as the members of the Baby Boom start approaching retirement,
> there are fewer members of the pool of wage-earning taxpayers who are
> paying to support a demographic bulge of retirees.  Had the government
> instead simply banked the surplus at a modest interest rate, it would
> not be seeing the oncoming retirement crisis (instead, we would have
> had a different crisis some time ago).

Hmm. Makes NZ's situation look even worse than it is. Our 
superannuation system was supposed to be a form of government 
subsidised savings, but in the 70s everything got put into a 
consolidated fund for efficencies' sake (actually IMO it was so that 
creative spending practices were easier to hide) and mysteriously by 
the mid-80s all the super fund seemed to have gotten lost. Theft by 
government, ain't it grand?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423190732.A7743@4dv.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CC74404.23217.6E3D9E@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 19:07, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > 
> > Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
> > being paid for by the occupants of the city.
> 
> Then why subsidise?  You're forcing the well-off to pay for water and
> electricity for the less well-off.  To an extent this may be
> appropriate, but I wonder to what extent, exactly.  Anyone deserves
> enough water for drinking to keep from dying and bathing to keep
> leprosy at bay, but any more than that should be on a pay-as-you-go
> basis.

If the wealthy want those they pass on the street to not offend their 
noses, why shouldn't they contribute towards the lower orders hygene?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:57:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:57:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74404.13930.6E3CAD@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 0:39, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Permission gladly granted!  Oz is more advanced than the World's 
> Biggest Banana Republic in many areas, brewing comes first to mind.

That must make NZ incredibly advenced then. :)

As a New Zealander I just had to make that dig. Can't have the Aussies 
thinking they brew better beer than we.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:01:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:01:43 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
References: <20020424063707.194DD27A34@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>

Kiri Aradia Morgan posted:
> 
> I'm so glad I have all you people to tell me these things.  They are NOT
> things I'd ever want to find out on my own!
> 
<snip> 
> > I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
> > more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

This is also the reason, I believe, a number of LRRP members in Viet Nam
ate only local food..or so I've heard. Some of the military vets on list
can probably confirm or lay this to rest.

An interesting sidenote for Traveller is the experience on one of the
many
Apollo flights. Apollo 8, I think. 'Twould seem one of the astronauts
had
a bout with some food that didn't agree with him. It hit when they had
been
in orbit preparatory to leaving for the moon. No one informed Mission 
Control and they were told to proceed (lose out on going to the moon
'cause
of the trots? As if!).

Unfortunately, the only "solids" toilet on board was in the form of
waterproof
bags with an adhesive on the inner rim of the opening. The adhesive
didn't
quite take. Everyone helped clean up the mess that had spread from the
Lunar Module, where the sick astronaut took care of business, to the
Command
Module.

A couple of weeks later, a poor Navy diver opened the hatch after the
capsule splashed down and almost fell off the capsule's floats when the
stench of two weeks of unwashed bodies and other things in something the
size of a small walk-in closet hit him.

Oh, and the space shuttle itself also tends to be aired out after each
mission. And, yes, the real toilet can get backed up. It happened about
5-6 missions ago. It was one to the ISS when the space station didn't
have
a permanent working toilet; the rookie on the mission was told by
Mission
Control to break out the long-sleeved plastic glove. It really was his
responsibility, not an act of bad humor.

He was considered the hero of the mission and I'm NOT joking.

So if a PC ever wants to work his passage by doing maintenance work...

GMs can truly have fun with PCs in small starships. <evil grin>

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74719.7719.7A4A2B@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 21:46, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Well, until I washed when I got back, that was the case.  
> After a few weeks, I couldn't smell myself, and I don't think 
> that anyone could really smell me, unlike the people who 
> smelled like soap.

That's my experience, too. It's one of the reasons we didn't like 
officers carping on about shaving in the bush - even a little bit of 
soap smells (and you have to re-apply camo cream on all that nice clean 
face, and any cuts are likely to get infected).
 
> I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago, 
> and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how 
> you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin 
> gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.

I found that after a week or two my hands became a lot less sensitive 
to extreme temperatures (like hot metal canteens of tea) even though 
the skin didn't thicken - it went sort of glassy, though. I also found 
that you didn't notice your own smell or that of your unit, but other 
units did smell a bit. Handy in bush with visibilty measured in metres 
or less.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <DAV32IKcQEF2a9jE11o0001c2c0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC747A3.30593.7C6423@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 22:09, Samuel D. Weiss wrote:

> John T. Kwon wrote,
> 
> >I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago,
> and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how
> you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin
> gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.<
> 
> That is one of my favorite movie lines.
> As you note, he was joking. He was asked why he didn't bathe. His response
> was that body oils, combined with sweat and dirt formed a natural barrier to
> water. (He was dirty because he didn't bathe, he didn't bathe because he was
> going to get dirty in a trench anyway.)
> Later in the movie when they come upon a group of female Soviet soldiers, he
> climbs into a hot tub with one of them fully clothed.
> 
> A really fun movie.
> :)

It's one of my favourites for getting idjits who've watched too much 
rambo to watch before playing in military or pseudo-military games. 
That and The Wild Bunch to instill proper respect for machineguns.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:11:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:11:43 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC748AA.24912.8066F4@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 20:06, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:

> > I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes
> > carries.  There's more than one reason for snipers to be
> > non-smokers. 
> 
> I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
> for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
> withstanding!

The way cigarette smoke clings is one of the reasons I seldom go to 
pubs these days. It's also way we used to try and get all the smokers 
assigned to other sections before an exercise (that and the fact that 
smoker's cough is not a good thing to be having in a tactical 
situation).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424010057.A11114@4dv.net>
References: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CC74B22.1400.8A0C31@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 1:00, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > 
> > I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
> > that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.
> 
> Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

Why shouldn't someone get something if they can't do anything because 
there's no opening for them? A few years back here in NZ a document 
from the Treasury was leaked which reported that in order to keep the 
inflation rate under 2% (the target at that time, IIRC) interest rates 
would have to be maintained at a point which would also maintain the 
unemployment rate at over 6%. Now if a country is going to do something 
like this in order that its businesses, investors and workers (though I 
have my doubts about there having been any concerns about the latter at 
that time) might prosper, surely it has an obligation to look after 
those that it has ensured cannot be employed?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:21:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:21:54 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CC74B22.1369.8A0CF3@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 17:50, Timothy Little wrote:

> I partially agree with you.  Not on the subject of the obsolescence of
> office work; that's been projected "in 20 years" for as long as cheap
> and abundant fusion power has, for much the same reasons.

Like the 'paperless office'. :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:25:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:25:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423231739.A10823@4dv.net>
References: <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>; from j-man@attbi.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:43PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CC74B22.11314.8A0B4B@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 23:17, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Don't worry--no economy is too sick to recover.  This ain't the Great
> Depression (thankfully: do _any_ of us want to make our children
> miserable with tales of the beginning of the century?).  I rather
> think that things are in the slow beginnings of a turn-around.  What
> really worries me is the war.  Wars wreck havoc on economies.  The
> reasons that the Great War and WWII did not on ours (ask Germans how
> the 20s and late 40s were) is that in both we had a good supply of
> folks to whom we were the only producers around.
> 
> Look at the '70s; at the early '90s.  What worries me is that our
> current war is going to make the late '00s nasty indeed.

Which war? The US expenditure on 'war' was quite high even before 
11Sep2001.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:27:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:27:51 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC74BB9.7090.8C5923@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 6:54, David Smart wrote:

> This is also the reason, I believe, a number of LRRP members in Viet Nam
> ate only local food..or so I've heard. Some of the military vets on list
> can probably confirm or lay this to rest.

AFAIK it's true, and was also done by Commonwealth forces in Malaysia.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:48:02 2002
Subject: Stench (was Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>

----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....


> "Robert A. Uhl" says
> >
> >I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head
> >hurts:-(
> >
> After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless
> they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which
> case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.
>
> My roommate could smell me when I came back, after he had
> bathed.
>
> In the field after a few weeks, I could smell bathed people
> at a considerable distance if they were upwind of me.  But it
> didn't work the other way for them (if I was upwind of them).


There used to be this show on TV about Vietnam (I'm sure that somebody
remembers it), and I remember a particular episode where the platoon was
going to take an attractive female new reporter on patrol with them.  All
the guys in the platoon showered, shaved, and slapped on the colone so they
would look godd when the woman arrived, and the platoon sergant chewed them
out for it...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 07:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 24 06:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <20020424000941.9F23227A05@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424145442.00bc2b80@mail.pi.se>

>Message: 5
>Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:51:57 -0500
>From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hello!

>For anyone that might know the answer:
>
>While working on my Mire landgrab, I have come up with a question that I 
>hope someone on the TML might know an answer for.  (Preferably a correct 
>one.  :-) )
>
>What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain in 
>order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?

If you ignore special cases, such as 3:2 orbit resonance (like 
Pluto/Neptune) or 1:1 orbit resonances (like tadpole orbits), and also 
assume the orbits must be stable over long times, like the age of our solar 
system, you basically have two limiters.

The first and more strict one is that the orbits won't be stable in the 
"forbidden zones" of another planet. The simplest way to think of this is 
to think of the Lagrange points of the system. The LG-1 point (usually this 
is considered to be the equilibrium point between the two bodies) separates 
where a particle should orbit either body. So in your example, the planet 
outside Mire will have an LG-1 point a bit inward. Mire can't orbit between 
that point and the outer planet, it must orbit between the local sun and 
the point. Like this

SUN ---- Mire --- Outer Planet's LG-1 --- Outer Planet

The exact breaking point here depends on the masses involved, but the 
example you give is with certainty stable unless the outer planet is 
extremely eccentric and it has a serious mass compared to the local sun. 
For an Earth-size planet around a Solar-mass star, the LG-1 is only about 
1% of the total distance away from the planet, or about four times further 
away than the moon.

The second one has to do with stability radii in multiple planet systems. 
This can be approximated by using Hill radii equations (for "real" 
calculations you need serious computing runs)  Again, this is an 
approximation and gross simplification, and I am not a professional 
astronomer so I may well misunderstand the math and theory.

But if we assume the central star of your example has a mass of 1/3 of our 
Sun, and Mire is Earth-size and orbits in a circular orbit at 0.2 AU the 
outer planet can orbit at 0.3 AU as long as it is not more massive than 
20-40 Earths (or about twice the size of Neptune or Uranus) without 
disrupting Mire's orbit. It would still affect it, though. If the outer 
planet is Earth-size too, you could potentially have a stable orbit at 0.25 
AU for the outer world.

If we take the original 0.4 AU, the world could be Saturn-size or even a 
bit bigger and Mire would still be stable. For a Jupiter-size world, you 
would likely need a distance of about 0.5 AU from the central star, so in 
this case the next stable orbit would be farther away than the Traveller 
orbit number says.

However, you could get a 3:1 orbit resonance (Mire does three orbits in one 
orbit of the outer world) by placing the second world at about 0.41 AU, and 
in this case Mire might be stable even if the outer planet is as big as 
Jupiter, or larger. This world would still affect the orbit a bit, though.

>The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a 
>distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.  Can 
>that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without 
>affecting Mire's orbit?

As above, unless the outer planet is a large gas giant it is IMO very 
likely the orbit would be stable.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 07:34:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 24 06:34:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
(whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
aged and infirm.  

Something I keep telling my children:

Every able bodied person has an obligation to defend the 
weak.  That's a rather broad obligation, but it's there.  If 
you see someone beating someone, you have to stop it and/or 
get help.  And if someone is unable to work, or is starving, 
you have to help them.

Now, whether or not the government is any good at these 
things is something else.  There are times when you can't 
wait for a policeman to come.  And there are times when you 
can't wait for social services to get their act together.  
You don't have to shoulder the whole world, but you have to 
do something.  Just standing there is not an option.
________________
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <F42fOy8Wx1jgTGAP2tb00002903@hotmail.com>

In mail, "Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com> said...

<SNIP>
>If by "tech dreams" you mean any new research, I disagree with the
>philosophy implicit in your statement.  If, on the other hand, you mean
>pie-in-the-sky nonsense, we're on the same page.
>.
>.
>.
>
>I don't know if the Cromatica system will turn out to be research or
>pie-in-the-sky nonsense.
</SNIP>

Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they' wanted to trial in 
the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras were linked to a database 
containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to alert the local 
police when a 'non-desirable' tried entering the city center (note; in 
England, shopping centers/malls can exclude people for illegal behviour, so 
this is not considered a violation of their rights).
Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of 10,000 bodies 
would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals free to go about 
their crimes...
Does anyone know what happened to this idea?

ObTrav: quite a few; PCs and/or friends get 'misidentified' (either way ;-), 
homicidal maniac gets into a busy shopping complex, "robo-mountie" suffers 
silicon senility and starts arresting *everybody*... ad infinitum.

Jeff.

"You want me to stand *where*??"

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:04:03 2002
Subject: Stench (was Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
In-Reply-To: <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <B8EC093B.58417%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/24/02 5:52 AM, Christopher Pratt at cdpratt@gatecom.com wrote:

> There used to be this show on TV about Vietnam (I'm sure that somebody
> remembers it), and I remember a particular episode where the platoon was
> going to take an attractive female new reporter on patrol with them.  All
> the guys in the platoon showered, shaved, and slapped on the colone so they
> would look godd when the woman arrived, and the platoon sergant chewed them
> out for it...

"Tour of Duty".  Strangely, that very episode was on yesterday.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-lethal weapons
Message-ID: <B8EC0B99.58449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all.  Earlier this month someone sent me the URL for an
interesting website on how non-lethal weapons work.  Which I have, of
course, lost.  If that kind soul could resend, I would be most grateful.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]

> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they' 
> wanted to trial in 
> the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras were linked 
> to a database 
> containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to 
> alert the local 
> police when a 'non-desirable' tried entering the city center 
> (note; in 
> England, shopping centers/malls can exclude people for 
> illegal behviour, so 
> this is not considered a violation of their rights).
> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of 
> 10,000 bodies 
> would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals 
> free to go about 
> their crimes...

Ummm, not quite...

As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
their identity will be free to go about their business.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:24:02 2002
Subject: Only a month late but --- was Re: [TML] Who are we?
In-Reply-To: <1B52330D-5764-11D6-B7BF-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <20020424142311.66979.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> Is anyone archiving these? ;-)

I think I have most of them, but I haven't had tome to
sort through them yet.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:36:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:36:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Who are we?
In-Reply-To: <20020424142311.66979.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEFNDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Citizens of the TML at http://www.downport.com/traveller/TML.shtml has been
around a few years. I'm getting ready to do a periodic update if anyone want
s to add /delete / modify any or their bio info on there.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
> --- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> > Is anyone archiving these? ;-)
>
> I think I have most of them, but I haven't had tome to
> sort through them yet.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <B8EC12F8.58455%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/24/02 7:20 AM, Matthew Bond at mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk wrote:

> 
> Ummm, not quite...
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

So they run undesirables out of town?  Nice.  Where do these people go?  And
who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or just those
detained by the police at some previous time?  What about those who have
already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going to be harassed
by the police.

This brings up an interesting question for PC visiting a relatively high law
level world.  Are they entered into a database because adventurers are a
suspicious class of people?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <DAV35SmLAztxc1o8yfo00004bf8@hotmail.com>

Visionics is the name of the company providing (some of) these systems.

There's a pretty fair article about the thing at:

http://www.mediaeater.com/cameras/news/10-2001.html

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:59:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:59:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B87@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Bond [mailto:mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk]
> Ummm, not quite...
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons 
> banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer 
> to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.
> 
> Matt

That said, of course, you are right that there may be false negatives...
so of the 4 failures on two will be innocents inconvenienced by s
policeman asking them who they are, and two will be 'undesirables' who
get to roam the area unmolested... of course, the next camera that sees
them might well pick them out anyway if the failure rate is 'per check'.
And if the police have copies of the mugshots available in their patrol
car (or downloadable to a handheld device) then they can swiftly check
that the person they are questioning is indeed on the list or not.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <200204241458.EXD05545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
<snip about the "smart" camera system>

The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
be.

Factor in the following:

a.  Criminal warrant issued, but no picture
b.  Criminal warrant issued, but not entered into database in 
a timely manner
c.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
found not guilty, data not updated
d.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
does his time, is released, and data not updated

I bet the actual error rate is over 50 percent.  Just go on 
the web and look at the state of Maryland's sex offender 
registry.  They state up front that they can't keep it up to 
date.  They don't really know where these people live.  I 
spoke to someone in that department, and they said that the 
only way to find out accurate information about a particular 
individual is to call and ask for an actual check - they go 
out and find the individual in question.

The culture and infrastructure for systems like these to be 
near 100 percent accurate do not exist.

________________
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:05:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:05:46 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA2270D@USCHM203>

All those infantry odor stories bring back some memories. In my experience,
I never noticed my own smell or that of anyone else around, though as others
have said, after a shower back in the barracks, you could smell the reek off
of your dirty clothes.
One thing you could smell, if you were on regular duty, was a company
returning from several weeks in the field. I swear you could smell them from
about a hundred yards away, and it only grew in intensity until you thought
a herd of goats was passing by.
Probably why my Gunny called everyone "Goddamn goatsmellers!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <200204241509.g3OF9LD01728@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
...
>ObTrav - Why aren't stewards paid more?  Providing creature comforts for 
>crew and passengers surely must be very important.  Good stewards control 
>morale in the uniformed services and can lure paying high passengers to your 
>nondescript Beowulf.

  Economics? If Steward-0 is six weeks F/T at Chez Ronaldo's, then
there's going to be lots of those people available. As it happens
I subscribe to the "spaceship pilots are going to be quite common,
actually" school but the relatively specialized (spaceship) skills
are still going to have greater market value through rarity.

  OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than
Pilot-3 or Engineering-3 - those latter don't clearly affect the
bottom line, after all.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For the Gun Bunnies out there...
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020424111106.00b8da70@mail.charter.net>

and I is one... (Ok...compared to some I'm a fluffy white house rabbit 
while they are dangerous cave guarding rabbits with sharp pointy teeth...)

<http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/modernfirepower/>

Currently in Playtest, you have to a Pyramid subscriber to access the 
playtest files and boards.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:17:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:17:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <200204241458.EXD05545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC7743B.26719.1EA397@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 10:58, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
> <snip about the "smart" camera system>
> 
> The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
> the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
> Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
> to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
> serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
> incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
> be.

How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
least keep the false positive rate down.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B88@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tod Glenn [mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com]
> Sent: 24 April 2002 15:45
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
> 
> 
> on 4/24/02 7:20 AM, Matthew Bond at mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Ummm, not quite...
> > 
> > As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons 
> banned/convicted
> > etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> > flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and 
> either arrested
> > or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> > bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police 
> officer to confirm
> > their identity will be free to go about their business.
> 
> So they run undesirables out of town?  Nice.

Hardly. They would only be restricted from the main shopping precincts.

>  Where do these 
> people go?

Local shops in the area they lived.

>  And
> who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
> crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or 
> just those
> detained by the police at some previous time?  What about 
> those who have
> already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going 
> to be harassed
> by the police.

I would expect that the idea was to only inclued persistent
shoplifters/vandals/muggers/car thieves etc
And it is hardly and great difficulty to flag each record with an expiry
date.

So upon a criminal coming before the courts for the umpteenth time for
such offences the court can order that their 'mugshot' be placed on the
system for a specified length of time. If they stop offending then after
that time they are removed from the database.

> This brings up an interesting question for PC visiting a 
> relatively high law
> level world.  Are they entered into a database because 
> adventurers are a
> suspicious class of people?

I can certainly see this happening on certain planets who want to keep
track of 'offworlders'. IIRC the second Stainless Steel Rat book
(Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge, I think) by Harry Harrison had such a
culture as the main antagonists.

Matt 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For the Gun Bunnies out there...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020424111106.00b8da70@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3CC7779E.14945.2BE21E@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 11:14, Mark Urbin wrote:

> and I is one... (Ok...compared to some I'm a fluffy white house rabbit 
> while they are dangerous cave guarding rabbits with sharp pointy teeth...)
> 
> <http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/modernfirepower/>
> 
> Currently in Playtest, you have to a Pyramid subscriber to access the 
> playtest files and boards.

Actually while the boards and stuff is still up, it's now out of playtest. 
Lots of fun stuff though, including good (IMO) rules for silencers and so 
on.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn, 
Playtester, Modern Firepower.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:50:39PM +1000
References: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com> <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020424093444.A12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:50:39PM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Fundamental rights pertain only to things that you may not have taken
> from you.

I like the way P.J. O'Rourke phrases it: a right is something which
does not take from anyone else.  One has a right to freedom of
religion--until one starts practicing human sacrifice.  One has a
right to freedom of speech--until one incites a riot.  One has a right
to freedom of armament--until one attacks another.  One has a right to
privacy--until one starts hiding bodies.  One has a right to enjoy
whatever particular perversion tickles one's fancy--unless it's rape.
And so on.

None of these impinge upon anyone else.  A right _cannot_ impinge on
anyone else.  When it does, it ceases to be a right.  When something
is an impingement from the very beginning (e.g. handouts--the money
must be taken from someone), it cannot be a right at all.

> If it wasn't for the government's anti-incentives, I'd be working
> comfortably in a part-time job now instead of deciding whether I'd
> rather work full-time with buckets of cash and no time to spend it,
> or not work at all and have heaps of time to pursue open-source
> programming but not save any money.

In fairness, it's not purely governmental disincentives but also
corporate culture.  At least from where I stand most folks do not want
a three-months-a-year employee.  Which is a pity.

> An economy can *always* deal with more workers, if left to market
> forces.  If there's a surplus of any labour, skilled or unskilled,
> wages for those workers can drop until goods or services become viable
> to take up all the surplus.  However, quite understandable political
> interests and regulations get in the way in practice.

Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
out sewage.  I daresay I would.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:48:02 2002
Subject: Stench (was Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
In-Reply-To: <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>; from cdpratt@gatecom.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:25AM -0400
References: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20020424094725.B12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:25AM -0400, Christopher Pratt wrote:
> 
> There used to be this show on TV about Vietnam (I'm sure that somebody
> remembers it), and I remember a particular episode where the platoon was
> going to take an attractive female new reporter on patrol with them.  All
> the guys in the platoon showered, shaved, and slapped on the colone so they
> would look good when the woman arrived, and the platoon sergant chewed them
> out for it...

Judging by my father's tales of the Navy--back when it was a man's
navy--they probably figured it was well worth it.  Heck, I know from
Scout camp that a few days makes the one girl in camp the most
beautiful woman in the world.  I can only image that after some months
out the effect becomes rather more pronounced.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <OF113CE2E0.677F0151-ON85256BA5.00569E86@pheaa.org>







>Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
>willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
>out sewage.  I daresay I would.

True but because there are so few people willing to do it i bet the pay for
workers to do that job is really good 8P one of the things i believe is a
factor in how you get paid is the number of people able or willing to do
the job. Lots of people want to be basketball stars but very few are able
to play basketball at that level of ability. Lots of people would rather
make 15 bucks an hour instead of 5 but very few are willing to clean sewers
to get it.

anyway hasta

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400
References: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> 
> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
> aged and infirm.  

I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?

People who cannot work are another matter.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In the UNIX world, being dependent on a GUI is the same thing as not
being a sysadmin.                                        --BigZaphod

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:58:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:58:10 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <3CC748AA.24912.8066F4@localhost>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>

At 12:07 AM 4/25/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
> > for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
> > withstanding!
>
>The way cigarette smoke clings is one of the reasons I seldom go to
>pubs these days. It's also way we used to try and get all the smokers
>assigned to other sections before an exercise (that and the fact that
>smoker's cough is not a good thing to be having in a tactical
>situation).

The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people 
having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for 
days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by 
smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.

ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 10:00:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 09:00:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>; from mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:20:51PM +0100
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <20020424095613.D12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:20:51PM +0100, Matthew Bond wrote:
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 10:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 24 09:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <F2090Q5B71GmFs40SIq0000224a@hotmail.com>

From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)

     "Economics? If Steward-0 is six weeks F/T at Chez Ronaldo's, then
there's going to be lots of those people available. As it happens I 
subscribe to the "spaceship pilots are going to be quite common,
actually" school but the relatively specialized (spaceship) skills are still 
going to have greater market value through rarity."


Mr. Hudson,

     Yes, most likely economics or the usual human "we'll muddle through" 
and "it's good enough" attitudes.  It's only a week after all, you can get 
something good to eat, or sleep in a clean room, or whatever after we reach 
our next port.

     "OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than
Pilot-3 or Engineering-3 - those latter don't clearly affect the bottom 
line, after all."

     Most definitely.  Here in the Biggest Little and in many other locales, 
restaurants advertise the chefs they have on staff.  There is a constant 
struggle to lure "names" away from your competitors and hold onto those you 
have.  Naturally for ever heavy hitter, there are dozens of third assistant 
bottle washers.
     If I were GMing today (alas), I'd most certainly present the PCs with 
an NPC super-duper-steward.  That fellow would ask for more pay and be a bit 
of a prima-donna to handle, but he would also fill the cabins with high 
passengers and have high skilled, low wage NPC crewmen begging the PCs to 
sign on.  Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he 
needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to 
insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.

PC - "Cilantro!??!  Just where in hades are we going to find cilantro on 
Roup?  Good Sweet Strephon, Melmotte, cilantro?!"

Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop 
for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze 
baronne merde?"


     Sincerely,
     Larsen
>
>   Steven Hudson
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 11:02:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 10:02:06 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>; from gridlore@mindspring.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <3CC748AA.24912.8066F4@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020424110133.E12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also
> people having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

So you make sure they're not addicts--you don't forbid them to smoke,
period.  Or you allow them other forms of nicotine: chewing tobacco,
while it has a distinctive odour, I don't think is as strong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`You know, there's a word for people who
 think that everyone is out to get them...'
`Yes! Perceptive!'           --Woody Allen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 11:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr 24 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEGDDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Hey, good plot device. Your team has been assigned to popularize tobacco use
among young Vargr to reduce their olfactory effectiveness should they decide
to join the other side in the brewing dissatisfaction with the current
Imperial borders.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for
> days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by
> smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.
>
> ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 12:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Apr 24 11:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus> <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net> <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com> <200204240037330379.D4645864@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CC6F5FF.5070407@telocity.com>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

>>Hunter,
>>
>>The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
>>concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
>>printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
>>that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
>>likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.
>>
>>Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
>>into a single product for your Aide line?
>>
>
>It depends on what changes would be needed for a specific on-screen version.
>
Nothing big, I don't think.  The problem I have with the standard layout 
is that the page length is greater than the screen height at a readable 
resolution. When I go to full page mode, the resolution on my 19" 
monitor is something like 80%, and my tired old eyes can't handle that. 
<g> On smaller monitors, say a laptop, it would be even worse.  But when 
I set the resolution to a nice reading size, I only get a half to 
two-thirds of the page on the screen. Because of the two column format, 
I then have scroll up and down on every page. Scrolling up and down like 
that is a regular pain, especially when charts and tables are involved.

I can think of a couple of "easy" fixes, first if you provided a single 
column format, then it wouldn't really matter if the page length 
exceeded the screen height, as I would only have to scroll down as I 
read.  Alternatively, and a better (but most likely more difficult 
approach)  would be to reduce the page lengths by about half, then each 
page would fit on the screen in comfortable reading resolution.

Hunter, I don't know if either approach would qualify as easy, but 
consideration for something like that would be most appreciated by this 
member of your market.

Please, note I'm not suggesting you change the format for the 
printer-friendly version, that looks very nice. It's just that also 
having a screen-friendly version would be nice, too.

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 12:24:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Apr 24 11:24:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
>
> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]
>
>> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they'
>> wanted to trial in  the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras
were linked
>> to a database containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to
[deletion]
>> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
>> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of
>> 10,000 bodies would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals
>> free to go about  their crimes...
>

Matthew Bond replied:
>As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
>etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
>flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
>or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
>bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
>their identity will be free to go about their business.

I think you've both misstated what it means.  The CCTV will look at all
persons in the mall.  It will misidentify 4% of them.  If 10,000 persons are
scanned, 200 non-criminals will be wrongly identified as criminals and 200
criminals will be wrongly identified as non-criminals.

Jeff's error was to apply the 4% to the population of the city; only the
population being scanned by CCTV is at issue.  (That may, of course, be the
entire population of the city.)  Matthew's error was to apply the 4% only to
the people flagged for police attention.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 13:08:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 24 12:08:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHMEALCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

The only real PC floppy drive compatibility issues relate to the 5-1/4 in
floppies when using the same media between 360KB and 1.2MB drives. Although
a 1.2MB drive can write both 360KB and 1.2MB disks, a serious problem may
occur if the 1.2MB drive erases or writes to a disk previously formatted
with a 360KB drive and the data is then attempted to be read from a 360KB
drive. This will cause random data read errors due to the fact that the
1.2MB drive head is narrower than the 360KB drive head. Thus when the 360KB
drive reads the 1.2MB drive data from the disk, it inadvertently GLEANS the
previous data written by the original 360KB drive.

-Shawn R Sears-
(MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, A+, N+, CCNA)

CCNP Pending!  :-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 13:13:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 12:13:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423190649.00cb5d28@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20424.111826.4l6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I just finished reading Coventry.  Coventry was his "your right to swing 
> your fist ends at someone else's nose" system.
> That was America after the Second Revolution, that was civilization.
> If you rejected Coventry or were denied Coventry, you were sent to the 
> walled off section where the strong ruled the weak.

No. *Coventry* was where you got sent if you rejected the *Covenant*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 13:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 24 12:23:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231147070.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEAMCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> > >
> > > I don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
> > > backgammon on the Metro.
> >
> > Ah, but there's also solitaire.
> >


For $399 you can get one with a built in cell phone, wireless message
service, email, and web browser

www.handspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:02:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:02:12 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people

>having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

Great. Give people one more reason not to reenlist. When I was in the
Marines the smoking rate was easily over 50%, at least among grunts. This
was back in the 80s, of course, so I imagine this has gone down some. 
As far as people having nic fits not being useful in combat, I wonder how
the millions of smoking combat veterans of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam would
feel about that.
We almost had a base-wide mutiny when North Carolina upped the drinking age
from 19 to 21 without a grandfather clause.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 3:00 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #438 - 7 msgs


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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: smells (Douglas Berry)
   2. Re: Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack") (Robert A. Uhl)
   3. Re: Re: stewards (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
   4. Re: smells (Robert A. Uhl)
   5. RE: smells (Swordy)
   6. Re: Traveller's Aide #1 (Eris Reddoch)
   7. RE: Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack") (Glenn M. Goffin)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:52:58 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] smells
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 12:07 AM 4/25/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
> > for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
> > withstanding!
>
>The way cigarette smoke clings is one of the reasons I seldom go to
>pubs these days. It's also way we used to try and get all the smokers
>assigned to other sections before an exercise (that and the fact that
>smoker's cough is not a good thing to be having in a tactical
>situation).

The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people 
having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for 
days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by 
smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.

ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:56:13 -0600
From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:20:51PM +0100, Matthew Bond wrote:
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.

--__--__--

Message: 3
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: stewards
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:26:50 +0000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)

     "Economics? If Steward-0 is six weeks F/T at Chez Ronaldo's, then
there's going to be lots of those people available. As it happens I 
subscribe to the "spaceship pilots are going to be quite common,
actually" school but the relatively specialized (spaceship) skills are still

going to have greater market value through rarity."


Mr. Hudson,

     Yes, most likely economics or the usual human "we'll muddle through" 
and "it's good enough" attitudes.  It's only a week after all, you can get 
something good to eat, or sleep in a clean room, or whatever after we reach 
our next port.

     "OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than
Pilot-3 or Engineering-3 - those latter don't clearly affect the bottom 
line, after all."

     Most definitely.  Here in the Biggest Little and in many other locales,

restaurants advertise the chefs they have on staff.  There is a constant 
struggle to lure "names" away from your competitors and hold onto those you 
have.  Naturally for ever heavy hitter, there are dozens of third assistant 
bottle washers.
     If I were GMing today (alas), I'd most certainly present the PCs with 
an NPC super-duper-steward.  That fellow would ask for more pay and be a bit

of a prima-donna to handle, but he would also fill the cabins with high 
passengers and have high skilled, low wage NPC crewmen begging the PCs to 
sign on.  Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he

needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to 
insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.

PC - "Cilantro!??!  Just where in hades are we going to find cilantro on 
Roup?  Good Sweet Strephon, Melmotte, cilantro?!"

Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop 
for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze 
baronne merde?"


     Sincerely,
     Larsen
>
>   Steven Hudson
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:01:33 -0600
From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] smells
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also
> people having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

So you make sure they're not addicts--you don't forbid them to smoke,
period.  Or you allow them other forms of nicotine: chewing tobacco,
while it has a distinctive odour, I don't think is as strong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`You know, there's a word for people who
 think that everyone is out to get them...'
`Yes! Perceptive!'           --Woody Allen

--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] smells
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:21:27 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hey, good plot device. Your team has been assigned to popularize tobacco use
among young Vargr to reduce their olfactory effectiveness should they decide
to join the other side in the brewing dissatisfaction with the current
Imperial borders.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for
> days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by
> smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.
>
> ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.



--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:14:23 -0500
From: Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hunter Gordon wrote:

>>Hunter,
>>
>>The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
>>concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
>>printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
>>that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
>>likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.
>>
>>Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
>>into a single product for your Aide line?
>>
>
>It depends on what changes would be needed for a specific on-screen
version.
>
Nothing big, I don't think.  The problem I have with the standard layout 
is that the page length is greater than the screen height at a readable 
resolution. When I go to full page mode, the resolution on my 19" 
monitor is something like 80%, and my tired old eyes can't handle that. 
<g> On smaller monitors, say a laptop, it would be even worse.  But when 
I set the resolution to a nice reading size, I only get a half to 
two-thirds of the page on the screen. Because of the two column format, 
I then have scroll up and down on every page. Scrolling up and down like 
that is a regular pain, especially when charts and tables are involved.

I can think of a couple of "easy" fixes, first if you provided a single 
column format, then it wouldn't really matter if the page length 
exceeded the screen height, as I would only have to scroll down as I 
read.  Alternatively, and a better (but most likely more difficult 
approach)  would be to reduce the page lengths by about half, then each 
page would fit on the screen in comfortable reading resolution.

Hunter, I don't know if either approach would qualify as easy, but 
consideration for something like that would be most appreciated by this 
member of your market.

Please, note I'm not suggesting you change the format for the 
printer-friendly version, that looks very nice. It's just that also 
having a screen-friendly version would be nice, too.

Eris


--__--__--

Message: 7
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
To: "Traveller-Digest" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:12:42 -0700
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
>
> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]
>
>> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they'
>> wanted to trial in  the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras
were linked
>> to a database containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to
[deletion]
>> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
>> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of
>> 10,000 bodies would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals
>> free to go about  their crimes...
>

Matthew Bond replied:
>As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
>etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
>flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
>or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
>bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
>their identity will be free to go about their business.

I think you've both misstated what it means.  The CCTV will look at all
persons in the mall.  It will misidentify 4% of them.  If 10,000 persons are
scanned, 200 non-criminals will be wrongly identified as criminals and 200
criminals will be wrongly identified as non-criminals.

Jeff's error was to apply the 4% to the population of the city; only the
population being scanned by CCTV is at issue.  (That may, of course, be the
entire population of the city.)  Matthew's error was to apply the 4% only to
the people flagged for police attention.

--Glenn



--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:14:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:14:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Who are we?
Message-ID: <20020424.130435.-189813.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

FWIW I saved all of them, 75 including Dominic's.

Turokan

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:36:26 -0400 "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> writes:
> Citizens of the TML at http://www.downport.com/traveller/TML.shtml 
> has been
> around a few years. I'm getting ready to do a periodic update if 
> anyone want
> s to add /delete / modify any or their bio info on there.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
> > --- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> > > Is anyone archiving these? ;-)
> >
> > I think I have most of them, but I haven't had tome to
> > sort through them yet.
> 
> 

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:21:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:21:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <20424.121604.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> For anyone that might know the answer:
>
> While working on my Mire landgrab, I have come up with a question that I 
> hope someone on the TML might know an answer for.  (Preferably a correct 
> one.  :-) )
>
> What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain in 
> order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?  The reason I ask is that Mire 
> is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a distance of .2 AU.  By default, the 
> next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.
>   Can that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without 
> affecting Mire's orbit?

It's not so much a matter of "how close" as the ratio of the orbital
periods. If two bodies have orbits such that one's period is a simple
multiple of the other, then you get *bad* effects. 

As an example, say there was a planet orbiting the sun at a distance
that would give it a 2 year period.

Every two years, earth would give it a "tug" towards the sun at the
same point it it's orbit. After a while, it'd be in a different orbit.

Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
of the period.

So, for my example above, a planet with twice the period of Earth:

D^2 = 2^3
D^2 = 8
D = sqrt(8)
D = 2.82 AU

For your planets, at .2 and .4 AU, if we call the period of the inner
planet 1, and the distance of the outer planet, 2 we get:

2^2 = P^3
4 = P^3
4^(1/3) = P 
1.59 = P

So the ratio of the periods is 1:1.59 and you *won't* get resonance
problems.

.2 AU is still 18.6 million miles (30 million km) so they aren't
exactly close...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:24:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:24:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <OF113CE2E0.677F0151-ON85256BA5.00569E86@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <20424.124156.7n8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
>>willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
>>out sewage.  I daresay I would.

Sometiomes it's what you are *able* to do. Right now, I could get by
with a fast food job. Trouble is, they involve standing for long
periods. Which I *cannot* do.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:27:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:27:27 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20424.123910.5K5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>>
>> >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
>> 
>> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
>> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
>> aged and infirm.  
>
> I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
> that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
> at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?

Ah, but what about one that lets you "survive"? Not comfortable, just
"tolerable". No luxuries unless you decide to do without something
else...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:44:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:44:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <20424.124156.7n8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <01a701c1ebcf$03eb6280$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Not me, please give me the garbage, sewer cleaning job, as it pays well. the
problem is that so many service industry job are being created. while it
causes unemployment to go down it also means that you have to work 2 jobs
and 60 hours a week to keep a roof over your head. me and my wife work, and
I am trying to go to school to get my degree and certification for Cisco so
I can get a better paying job so my wife can go to school and hopefully get
a better paying job, the problem is, that I am almost afraid to say I will
not be as successful as my parents , so much for the American dream
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism


> In mail you write:
>
> >>Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
> >>willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
> >>out sewage.  I daresay I would.
>
> Sometiomes it's what you are *able* to do. Right now, I could get by
> with a fast food job. Trouble is, they involve standing for long
> periods. Which I *cannot* do.
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:49:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:49:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20424.123910.5K5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020424163654.00b94210@urbin.net>

At 12:39 PM 4/24/02 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> > >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> >> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled
> >> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The
> >> aged and infirm.
> > I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> > able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
> > that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
> > at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> > another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?
>Ah, but what about one that lets you "survive"? Not comfortable, just
>"tolerable". No luxuries unless you decide to do without something
>else...

$20,000 a year won't even get you "tolerable" in NYC.

In Mobile, Alabama, it's on the plus side of "reasonably"

Where you're at has a lot to do with it.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424135724.009f6460@mindspring.com>

At 03:56 PM 4/24/02 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> >The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people
>
> >having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.
>
>Great. Give people one more reason not to reenlist. When I was in the
>Marines the smoking rate was easily over 50%, at least among grunts. This
>was back in the 80s, of course, so I imagine this has gone down some.
>As far as people having nic fits not being useful in combat, I wonder how
>the millions of smoking combat veterans of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam would
>feel about that.

Well, we learned that in Vietnam at least the VC often located US OPs by 
the smell of cigarette smoke.  Having addicts in the trenches does not aid 
in the mission.

>We almost had a base-wide mutiny when North Carolina upped the drinking age
>from 19 to 21 without a grandfather clause.

I was at Benning when that happened. The common reaction was "who cares" 
and the clubs on VD Drive never bothered to check IDs.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>
References: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com> <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com> <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020425073936.A11272@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Hmm. Makes NZ's situation look even worse than it is. Our
> superannuation system was supposed to be a form of government
> subsidised savings,

That was what Australia's old-age pension used to be.  Although the
funds weren't lost, by the time the contributors reached retirement
age, the government had introduced assets and independent income tests
to prevent many of the original people from accessing their "savings",
and the original income taxes that funded the scheme had long since
been legislatively disconnected from the pension.

Now we've got compulsory superannuation.  Oh yes, it looks very
attractive at first -- heavy tax breaks, the government will match any
voluntary contributions up to a certain percentage of your income --
but I doubt I'll be allowed to touch it by the time I'm 55, ... no, 60
..., no, 65.  If there's anything left of it after slowly increasing
tax rates, that is.

Oops!  Not much relation to Traveller here.  Sorry!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC74404.23217.6E3D9E@localhost>
References: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700 <3CC74404.23217.6E3D9E@localhost>
Message-ID: <3cc920e4.11435731@post.demon.co.uk>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:

>If the wealthy want those they pass on the street to not offend their=20
>noses, why shouldn't they contribute towards the lower orders hygene?

Agreed - although I was more concerned about typhoid and cholera...
(and probably new, improved antibiotic-resistant cholera, too). =20

It's all about enlightened self-interest:  it's to my personal benefit
that everybody in my community has access to decent sanitation, even
the poorest.  I'm willing to pay for that through higher taxes.
(though I'd draw the line at filling swimming pools or watering
20-acre lawns;  you shouldn't get subsidies for that...<g>).

=46or the same reason I support giving subsidies to public transport,
even by people who never use it - because they still benefit from
clearer roads, more parking spaces and less pollution.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8ecd76ee706@[143.232.119.186]>

At 11:53 PM -0700 4/23/02, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote
>
>>  What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a
>>  fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who think
>>  they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to complain
>>  that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and agitate
>>  for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact that lead
>>  to such a system in the first place, since the rationale that supports
>>  it can be easily used to support increases, and whether society wants
>>  to try and "buy" them off).
>
>I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and
>that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.

So those of us who work are expected to make sure every gets money 
regardless of what they do?  I think that is both morally wrong (what 
right do other peole have on the fruit of my efforts) and unworkable 
(such system have always become burdened by those who abuse them).

>
>>  There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family (?).
>>   It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those who
>>  went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this is
>>  the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of
>>  "non-working" class in Europe....
>
>Given how rapidly automation is advancing (much modern office
>work will be obsolete in under 20 years), we are almost certainly
>going to have a combination of increasing GNPs *and* an
>increasing number of people out of work in the entire First World. 
>Why should they not share in the bounty of an economy that no
>longer has need for (and in fact, likely cannot deal with) for
>everyone to be employed.

If you want to have a system for those who can't find work that is 
one thing.  But that is a far cry from guaranteed income.

And this whole "technology will create a class of people with nothing 
to do" is nothing more than a recycling of the Ludditism of the 
Industrial Revolution.  The money saved by automation creates demand 
for more products and services by those with the money which creates 
jobs.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:52:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:52:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <20424.121604.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com> <20424.121604.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020425074906.B11272@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
> of the period.

Oops, it's the other way around :)

(2 pi / T)^2 = G M / R^3
so T^2 = k R^3, where k = (2 pi)^2 / (G M)


> .2 AU is still 18.6 million miles (30 million km) so they aren't
> exactly close...

Indeed.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC74249.9558.677A81@localhost>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <3CC74249.9558.677A81@localhost>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8ecd9104997@[143.232.119.186]>

At 11:39 PM +1200 4/24/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 23 Apr 2002 at 17:26, David P. Summers wrote:
>
>>  A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more people living on
>>  public assistance.  (It may not be 50%, but it will depend on what
>>  the level is set at).
>
>Curiously even though this is effectively the case in this country
>unemployment and beneficiary numbers are more dependant on other
>factors than on how much money is paid out to 'dole bludgers' and I
>very much doubt that this would change unless quite a lot more money
>was paid to them.

I don't know if New Zeland is a small, relatively isolated, country 
that is an exception (though I must say I have my doubts) but from 
the Roman Empire, to the Soviet Union, to European welfare states we 
have seen enough to that if they don't have to work, a significant 
fraction of society will go for the free ride.

>
>>  What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a
>>  fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who
>>  think they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to
>>  complain that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and
>>  agitate for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact
>>  that lead to such a system in the first place, since the rationale
>>  that supports it can be easily used to support increases, and whether
>>  society wants to try and "buy" them off).
>>
>>  There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family
>>  (?).  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those
>>  who went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this
>>  is the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of
>>  "non-working" class in Europe....
>
>Until the economy is in a state where the demand for labour is such
>that industries are short of it and people are still refusing to work
>it really doesn't matter if some (or most) of the people not working
>aren't because they can't be bothered.

Of course when jobs come along, why should they be bothered then?  A 
lot of the issue was the _contempt_ for the idea that one should be 
expected to work for a living....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 16:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed Apr 24 15:01:03 2002
Subject: Beer (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <20020424123206.EE8A027A4A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008b01c1ebdb$e8dac0a0$e65d8690@computer>

> From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> As a New Zealander I just had to make that dig. Can't have the Aussies
> thinking they brew better beer than we.

Actually, the best beer in the world is brewed in Australia:  Guinness. : )

Most British and Irish beers brewed in Australia have higher alcohol
contents than the original versions, to allow them to compete in the market
here.

I actually prefer Kilkenny to Guinness.  I drink different beers in
different pubs.  In one, I tend to drink Boddington's.  In others, I drink
good old XXXX (brewed in Brisbane), with VB (from Melbourne) an "if all else
fails" option.  The last two are basically cat urine, but drinkable in
sufficient quantities.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 16:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 24 15:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Question on planetary orbits
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424234029.00ab4ef0@mail.pi.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

 >It's not so much a matter of "how close" as the ratio of the orbital
 >periods. If two bodies have orbits such that one's period is a simple
 >multiple of the other, then you get *bad* effects.

Not necessarily. Gliese 876's two known planets are in a 2:1 resonance, 
both are massive and on short period orbits. I think HD82943 is another 
example. Jupiter's inner three moons are in a 2:1 resonance series, a 
Laplace resonance. Resonance can provide stability to a planetary or lunar 
system, and it may be a not uncommon feature to have planets captured into 
2:1 and 3:1 resonances, based upon simulations of orbital migration.

 >Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
 >of the period.

Keplers third law is that the square of the period is proportional to the 
cube of the distance.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 16:37:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 24 15:37:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020424.145416.-149337.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:38:27 -0400 Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> At 12:39 PM 4/24/02 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >In mail you write:
> > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> > > >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> > >> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled
> > >> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The
> > >> aged and infirm.
> > > I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> > > able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  
> Except
> > > that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me 
> live
> > > at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> > > another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am 
> lazy?
> >Ah, but what about one that lets you "survive"? Not comfortable, 
> just
> >"tolerable". No luxuries unless you decide to do without something
> >else...
> 
> $20,000 a year won't even get you "tolerable" in NYC.
> 
> In Mobile, Alabama, it's on the plus side of "reasonably"
> 
> Where you're at has a lot to do with it.
> 

Well, I hate to butt in here, but I'm a prime example of the above
conversation.

I'm disabled as you all know, pulling in roughly $17.5k via S.S. and my
disability pension. My wife doesn't work, and must take care of me. We
were basically kicked out of the SF Bay area, and now live in an
"afordable" housing apartment in Stockton with our 21 year old son who
works part time, and helped us qualify for our rent.  Tolerable is barely
the word for it. After our 25th wedding aniversary next month, we may
divorce just so that my wife can receive SSI. If we do, then our life
here might be considered tolerable.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
Message-ID: <147.d7848aa.29f899cd@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/24/2002 2:04:39 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:

>Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for 
>days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by 
>smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.

That's why I never understood those commercials for [various products] to 
remove tobacco stains from the teeth. They usually take the following form:

"A: Have you quit smoking?
B: Uh . . . what do you think?
A: Your teeth are so white . . . "

I never understood this because in my experience just being in the same room 
with a smoker can make one's clothes _reek_ of tobacco for days. I could 
always tell when my brother gave up trying to quit, and when my nephew took 
up pot on a regular basis.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <147.d7848aa.29f899cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>

Try being allergic to cig smoke.
It makes being out in public very unhappy, especially when I don't sneeze,
but develope the all over body itch. VERY nasty.

Then again I do a lot of hiking and I know that folks in the field develop a
special smell that they don't notice till they clean up. At least we act
like we don't notice ;)

TV

--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <20020424095613.D12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250924020.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Robert:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

 The incorrect response is "Sorry Man I've only got a pipe."

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:59:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:59:36 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <20020424110133.E12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250925440.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Robert:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> >
> > The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also
> > people having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.
>
> So you make sure they're not addicts--you don't forbid them to smoke,
> period.  Or you allow them other forms of nicotine: chewing tobacco,
> while it has a distinctive odour, I don't think is as strong.

 Yes in the field we did only eat native food. As the VC could smell us
miles away. All the nice products that the service present to us have
distinctive smells. From shaving materials to the gun oil. Making us
olafactory targets.

 As for smoking, this is a touchy subject. i happen to be pro smoking. But
if it is a way soon to beat the draft. Well I know a lot of people that
will take it up. A mess more that would have used it back in 68. <G>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:06:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:06:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
> Matthew Bond replied:
> >As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> >etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> >flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> >or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> >bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> >their identity will be free to go about their business.
>
> I think you've both misstated what it means.  The CCTV will look at all
> persons in the mall.  It will misidentify 4% of them.  If 10,000 persons
are
> scanned, 200 non-criminals will be wrongly identified as criminals and 200
> criminals will be wrongly identified as non-criminals.
>
> Jeff's error was to apply the 4% to the population of the city; only the
> population being scanned by CCTV is at issue.  (That may, of course, be
the
> entire population of the city.)  Matthew's error was to apply the 4% only
to
> the people flagged for police attention.
>
> --Glenn

Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in
the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database? It
is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken as one in 25
of the members of the database will be misidentified... If there was only
one picture in the database is there a 4% chance that any given person will
be identified as it? Or much more likely, if there was only one person in
the database 4% of the time the system would report 'no match' when
analysing a picture of that individual.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250925440.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link writes:

>  As for smoking, this is a touchy subject. i happen to be pro smoking. But
> if it is a way soon to beat the draft. Well I know a lot of people that
> will take it up. A mess more that would have used it back in 68. <G>

Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine they'd
just draft you anyway and force you to quit.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHMEALCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Shawn:

Comments below quoted.

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Shawn R Sears wrote:

> The only real PC floppy drive compatibility issues relate to the 5-1/4 in
> floppies when using the same media between 360KB and 1.2MB drives. Although
> a 1.2MB drive can write both 360KB and 1.2MB disks, a serious problem may
> occur if the 1.2MB drive erases or writes to a disk previously formatted
> with a 360KB drive and the data is then attempted to be read from a 360KB
> drive. This will cause random data read errors due to the fact that the
> 1.2MB drive head is narrower than the 360KB drive head. Thus when the 360KB
> drive reads the 1.2MB drive data from the disk, it inadvertently GLEANS the
> previous data written by the original 360KB drive.

 All of the above is interesting. But not my main Traveller theme part.
For example <composing a reply to a prior msg with this topic> The entire
premise above is dealing with the measurements of the micro$haft style of
disks and formatting. i use Commodore exclusively. First we measure in
blocks 4 = 1kb. The single sided drives read thes disk at 664 C= blocks.
This is the 1541 disk drive. If I can do the math right that is 166kb Then
the 1571 dreive is a double head reader. Now the Comodore built 3 1/2"
drive did the double sided double density disks and formatted at 800kb
free. 790kb free if formatted in the Geos/Wheels OS environment. CMD's
FD-2000 does the DD/DS 3 1/2" disks but also the high density disks and
formats them at 1.6MB. Commodore never made a high density 5 1/4" drive.
Any one want a collection of the HD 5 1/4" disks? Got a mess of them some
factory. Make great targets. <G>

 Anyway what my Traveller computer premise is about is not only different
eras of computers of the same platform. But different standards amongst
the history of the Imperium and the subjective worlds. From multiple
companies in the Imperium. All the ay to the different tech level worlds
that have some sort of Imperial contact.

 Now then all tat said. We have talked about some converting things. using
what I know which is a samttering of the techy stuff for the Commodore
world. i have tools that allow translation on my system. Allowing me to
translate from Pet to Ascii and back again. So that part is covered for
text. I also have tools that allow scaling of JPGs and GIFs. These at
videocam. That allow for my screen size. I have tools to pas along to the
windoze and Amiga users that allow the text translation for my preferred
DT <Desk Top> system Geos. Even the ability to make .D64 image files for
the emulator users.

 OK what I am looking at on this topic is the same type of things in tols
and utils for converting different standards and platforms in the 3I.
Based and projecting from the exisitng styles we have now. Putting that
into the CT game.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250956500.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Anthony:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine they'd
> just draft you anyway and force you to quit.

 i don't know about the draft. The last I heard it takes a fast vote in
congress to reinstate it. On this I am not certain. I personally am way to
old to be drafted. But they can recall me if needed. ALmost happened in
Desert Storm. But smokers that fight the quit part would most likely be
discharged under the unfit for military service clauses. Which I
understand there are many classifications for that now. But I have been
out of the military since 71. Oh FWIW I don't smoke cigs, being a pipe
smoker for 40+ years. Nope don'T want to quit and my O2 rate last year was
99% at my physical. <G>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250956500.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019696542.4978.ajackson@ping>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link writes:
> Hoi Anthony:
> 
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> > Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine
> > they'd just draft you anyway and force you to quit.
> 
>  i don't know about the draft. The last I heard it takes a fast vote in
> congress to reinstate it.
Sure, congress is theoretically able to reinstate the draft.  They're just
vanishingly unlikely to want to.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 19:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 18:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425073936.A11272@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC800BE.5191.7D9315@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 7:39, Timothy Little wrote:

> That was what Australia's old-age pension used to be.  Although the
> funds weren't lost, by the time the contributors reached retirement
> age, the government had introduced assets and independent income tests
> to prevent many of the original people from accessing their "savings",
> and the original income taxes that funded the scheme had long since
> been legislatively disconnected from the pension.

Sounds like the same old story.
 
> Now we've got compulsory superannuation.  Oh yes, it looks very
> attractive at first -- heavy tax breaks, the government will match any
> voluntary contributions up to a certain percentage of your income --
> but I doubt I'll be allowed to touch it by the time I'm 55, ... no, 60
> ..., no, 65.  If there's anything left of it after slowly increasing
> tax rates, that is.

I think that's where we're headed. The previous government had this 
system where you could set up your fund with a commercial provider, and 
therefore it should be safe from the government. Of course you're then 
relying on the provider being around when you retire, and the terms and 
conditions not being quietly changed. And of course you're also having 
to pay for the profits of the provider out of your interest.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 19:15:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 18:15:58 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>
References: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400
Message-ID: <3CC800BD.22553.7D928D@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 9:54, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >
> > >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> > 
> > Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
> > (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
> > aged and infirm.  
> 
> I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
> that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
> at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?

As long as there are more people willing to work then there are slots 
available, why not? By not working you're accepting a lower income in 
order to make the slot you'd have taken open for another who wants it 
more than you. This works until there's a labour shortage and people 
are still not working, at which point continuing to pay non-workers 
will be a disaster.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <200204250229.g3P2T6G09549@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: stewards
...
>"OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than Pilot-3
...
>     If I were GMing today (alas), I'd most certainly present the PCs with 
>an NPC super-duper-steward.  That fellow would ask for more pay and be a bit 
>of a prima-donna to handle, but he would also fill the cabins with high 
>passengers and have high skilled, low wage NPC crewmen begging the PCs to 
>sign on.  Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he 
>needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to 
>insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.

  Why an NPC? It seems like a great excuse for not being
too useful in the firefights that the D&D'ers keep trying 
to provoke. It might even be combined with some social
skills or a problem-solving approach :)

  But if an NPC, then the occasional review of "Fawlty
Towers" should be considered!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 20:32:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 19:32:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person
> in 25 in the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of
> the database?

That's far better than the failure rate of many previous systems.


> It is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken
> as one in 25 of the members of the database will be misidentified.

If you'd ever done any image-recognition work, you'd know that a 4%
false-positive rate is extraordinarily good for "in the field" runs,
at an acceptable false-negative rate.

What you seem to be saying is that the system has a 4% false-negative
rate and a false-positive rate somewhere less than 0.1%.

If that's really what they meant, either the system designers are the
best geniuses this side of Andromeda, or they're snake-oil salesmen.
I'm betting on the latter, if they're really claiming what you say.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 21:35:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed Apr 24 20:35:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1ec0a$1bc04ca0$0b01a8c0@duck>

Thank you all for the answers.  Just a little more explanation:

While working on my Mire landgrab, I ran its configuration through Heaven
and Earth.  When I did that, I got a really interesting system, which
included three planets (in addition to Mire) with a type "6" atmosphere and
a > 1 hydrosphere.  Too bad the star is a measley K6 V!  (Actually it was
two planets and one moon, and the moon orbits one of these planets.)

Anyway, I really wanted to make the second planet (the one without the moon)
habitable (i.e. really cold, not frozen solid like I got in the first
place).  So I had to start fudging numbers.  Actually, I doubt that it would
still be warm enough where I put it, but I figure it should be close enough.
:-)

BTW, that is the one main frustration I had with H&E:  it forces the orbit
distances.  So, orbit 0 is *always* .2 AU, orbit 1 is *always* .4 AU.  This
means that for the smaller suns that nice warm planet from canon discription
is really frozen solid.  (Either that or the planet ends up being too close
and is an inferno with a "base" climate temperature of 45+ C.)  The program
has no way to tweak the orbital distance.  The only way I could simulate
that was to vary the size of the star until I got close to the temperatures
I needed.

In case anyone is actually curious as to what I have so far, the description
is at http://www.caddocourt.com/traveller/mire/ .  (If you go one level
higher to http://www.caddocourt.com/traveller you can see my Daryen page and
my other landgrab attempts.)  It is still very much a work in progress, but
it is starting to take shape.

Again, thanks for the help.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:06:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:06:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
References: <F2090Q5B71GmFs40SIq0000224a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC77F60.88D8F9C8@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
>
>    <snip> Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he
> needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to
> insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.
>
> PC - "Cilantro!??!  Just where in hades are we going to find cilantro on
> Roup?  Good Sweet Strephon, Melmotte, cilantro?!"
>
> Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop
> for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze
> baronne merde?"
>
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen

I've done this with a Vargar steward on my groups ship. Keeping her in fresh
meat is a real challenge at points. Especially since she insists on sharing it
all with the passengers and crew. Hadn't really thought of the ingredient angle.
Thanks Larsen.



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Sorry doesn't put thumbs on the hands, Marge.
                          -Homer Simpson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:09:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:09:59 2002
Subject: Beer (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <20020424123206.EE8A027A4A@mail.travellercentral.com> <008b01c1ebdb$e8dac0a0$e65d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CC77FE1.1580CF1F@premier.net>


Alan Bradley wrote:
> 
> > From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> > As a New Zealander I just had to make that dig. Can't have the Aussies
> > thinking they brew better beer than we.
> 
> Actually, the best beer in the world is brewed in Australia:  Guinness. : )
> 
> Most British and Irish beers brewed in Australia have higher alcohol
> contents than the original versions, to allow them to compete in the market
> here.

Ah, then 307 Ale would find a ready market in Australia:

http://www.tomsmithonline.com/lyrics/307ale.htm

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:25:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:25:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>

< snip debate on system accuracy >

More grist for the mill at:

http://www.visionics.com/faceit/faqs/recog.html

Keep in mind this is info from the company that sells the technology.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:30:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:30:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
In-Reply-To: <3CC77F60.88D8F9C8@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8ECD20F.58816%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/24/02 9:00 PM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

>> Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop
>> for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze
>> baronne merde?"
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> Larsen
> 
> I've done this with a Vargar steward on my groups ship. Keeping her in fresh
> meat is a real challenge at points. Especially since she insists on sharing it
> all with the passengers and crew. Hadn't really thought of the ingredient
> angle.
> Thanks Larsen.

I once ran an Aftermath campaign where the players were kept busy looking
for ingredients for an omelet by a deranged gourmand in return for some
penicillin.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:38:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:38:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <3CC73DFE.1550.56B779@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC785BE.E6ACFF88@premier.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> On 23 Apr 2002 at 13:04, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> > The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST
> > series is that everyone is an officer.
> 
> That didn't bother me in the slightest, seeing as there were often
> engineering officers doing what we'd have ratings employed at.
> Obviously the later Star Trek period saw a lot of 'job inflation' in
> the Federation. Probably some bureaucrat thought it'd help morale or
> recruitment if everyone in Starfleet got to be an officer.

I suspect that the rank inflation of the ST universe (and many other
fictional universes) has more to do with the observation that Robert
Heinlein (adroitly bringing the thread back to its title) made in _Job:
A Comedy of Justice_ that civilians automatically seem to equate
themselves with officers, regardless of the actual position the
civilians in question hold in the employment and/or social hierarchy.

One of the things that annoyed me most about Twilight: 2000 (second
edition) is that, according to the chargen rules, I did not exist. 
According to T2K (2e), only Military Intelligence officers could perform
interrogator duties; enlisted MI types were treated as equivalent to
Support branch (i.e., mechanics and the like).  As an enlisted
interrogator (MOS 97E4P) who currently has 18+ years of experience in
the field, I was (understandably, I think) quite put out by this chargen
rule, especially since very few MI commissioned officers in the US Army
_ever_ learn how to interrogate prisoners of war.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:46:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:46:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500
References: <147.d7848aa.29f899cd@aol.com> <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20020424223740.A14385@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
>
> Try being allergic to cig smoke.

That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
<http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.

Perhaps you're slightly asthmatic, or have other allergies which smoke
in generl triggers?


-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I have a love for coding.  I have a love for staying up for days at a
time living off of Tea and Cigarettes, doing nothing but wearing the
letters off of the keys in front of my computer.  My bills have a love
for being paid on time.                                 --Jace of Fuse!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:55:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:55:28 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:07:21PM -0700
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250925440.30393-100000@vcsweb.com> <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020424224232.B14385@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:07:21PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine they'd
> just draft you anyway and force you to quit.

I'd claim smoking is part of my philosophy (i.e. religion).
C.S. Lewis smoked, J.R.R. Tolkien smoked, G.K. Chesterton smoked, and
frankly I care more about the dust which clung to their heals than all
the words and thoughts of the Koops and Kesslers of this world.

Not that this has anything to do with military service.  Not being an
addict, I have gone for quite extended periods of time without
tobacco, when the sitution warranted.  No doubt I'll do so again.  So
I could quite cheerfully go into the bush for awhile, come out,
shower, shave, light a nice pipe and relax.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd' - Ian Lamb, age 3.5

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 23:03:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Wed Apr 24 22:03:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
Message-ID: <3CC74587.16615.16FC24A@localhost>

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heres the second in my series of conversions


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you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
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     File:  TL12 200,000-ton Kokirrak-class Dreadnought.htm
     Date:  24 Apr 2002, 23:52
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--Message-Boundary-12821--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 23:18:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 22:18:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> http://www.visionics.com/faceit/faqs/recog.html
> 
> Keep in mind this is info from the company that sells the technology.

Yep.  It's actually worse than I thought.  On internal comparison
tests on a standardised database, its best error sum is above 1%.  A
reasonable rule of thumb in image recognition, is that in typical
deployed conditions error rates (of both types) go up by at least an
order of magnitude over standardised test data.  That's assuming
no-one is actually trying to fool the system!

That means that if you want 90% detection of known criminals or
troublemakers, you'll have to put up with misidentifying *at least* 5%
of the general public as people in the database.  A rather small
shopping mall would have say 10000 people passing through in a day,
that's about 500 false alarms.

Worse still, the 'tails' of feature set detection lengthen in
realistically noisy data, which means that reducing the threshold has
less effect on error rates in real conditions than in standardized
data.  So while reducing the threshold by 5% may halve the
false-positive rate in test data, it may only reduce false-positives
by 30% in real data.  So you get double-hit by real noise: Not only do
your error rates go up, but your ability to reduce errors by reducing
the threshold for detection goes down.

Ignoring the likelihood that people are going to deliberately spoof
the system, let's say you want a false-positive rate of less than 1%
(100 innocent members of the public bothered per shopping mall per
day).  Judging by their own graphs, I'd be very surprised to see 50%
effectiveness at detecting known troublemakers in real conditions.

Including the fact that some of the people in the database *will* try
to avoid detection, I'd put the hit rate at more like 20%.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 23:36:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 24 22:36:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com> <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>

> Judging by their own graphs, I'd be very surprised to see 50%
> effectiveness at detecting known troublemakers in real conditions.
>
> Including the fact that some of the people in the database *will* try
> to avoid detection, I'd put the hit rate at more like 20%.
>

Given the current state of the art, how long do you think it will be before
the performance of this system is able to live up to the hype?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 00:10:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 24 23:10:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> >The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people
> >having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.
> Great. Give people one more reason not to reenlist. When I was in the
> Marines the smoking rate was easily over 50%, at least among grunts. This

Well, I wouldn't want to be in the field with smokers. It has no good
points, and many bad.

Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even farther with image
intensifiers. Also, you might want not to leave much stuff around, which
is quite hard if you have to remember collecting everything you smoke.

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 00:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Wed Apr 24 23:14:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <3CC6F5FF.5070407@telocity.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
 <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>
 <200204240037330379.D4645864@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3CC6F5FF.5070407@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <200204250108350264.D9A71D60@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/24/2002 at 1:14 PM Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>I can think of a couple of "easy" fixes, first if you provided a single 
>column format, then it wouldn't really matter if the page length 
>exceeded the screen height, as I would only have to scroll down as I 
>read.  Alternatively, and a better (but most likely more difficult 
>approach)  would be to reduce the page lengths by about half, then each 
>page would fit on the screen in comfortable reading resolution.
>
>Hunter, I don't know if either approach would qualify as easy, but 
>consideration for something like that would be most appreciated by this 
>member of your market.

Hmm. Its something I will definately look into. The main problem I see=
 though is we would have to layout the PDF twice for each edition. once for=
 a 'print' version and once for an 'on-screen' version. I'll have to talk=
 to Steve and see what he thinks it might add time-wise on his part to=
 handle it.

It would also be an interesting question to pose to those who buy the PDFs,=
 to see if there is a larger preference one way or another.

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 00:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 23:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com> <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020425163025.A12453@freeman.little-possums.net>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> Given the current state of the art, how long do you think it will be
> before the performance of this system is able to live up to the
> hype?

Same answer that I'd give to any other prediction about near future
technology; fusion power, paperless office, a machine able to
understand natural spoken language, house-cleaning robots, generally
available space tourism, and widespread acceptance of video phones and
electric cars: "20 years" :)

(Of course, most of these were "20 years" away in the 1960s...)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 01:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 00:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020420102803.C4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020420102803.C4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020425175119.A12598@freeman.little-possums.net>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Let 't' be the number of orbits (or fractional orbits).  Then
>   theta = 2 arctan ((1+e) tan(pi t) / sqrt(1-e^2)).  (I hope)

It looks like my hopes were dashed.  That's what I get for doing
orbital dynamics on an empty stomach!  The (hopefully *this* time)
correct formula is

pi t = arctan (sqrt(1-e^2) tan (theta/2) / (1+e))
       - (e sqrt(1-e^2) sin theta) / 2(1 + e cos theta) 

(If you forget the second line like I did, you get my incorrect
formula above).  Unfortunately this expression can't be simply solved
for theta like the previous one.  You can easily find the time for a
given position, but that's not very useful :)  You'll need to use a
numerical method to find the position at a given time.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020423183217.00ac19d8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEFBHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Jimmy Simpson wrote :

> IMHO, there was precisely 1 good episode of Galactica 
> 1980, "The Return of Starbuck".

Was that about a newly-reopened coffe franchise ?

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:47:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:47:57 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8eb83b1f99b@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAAEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :
> A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more
> people living on public assistance.  (It may not
> be 50%, but it will depend on what the level is set at).

I think the 200AD "Judge Dredd" series shows what such a society
would turn into.

(200AD has always been very good SF IMO, even if some of the
stories and characters were relatively puerile, it does explore
the issues, both social and technological like SF is supposed
to ).

Not only would people not work, but because of the lack of
workers, more and more things would have to be automated,
companies would find it harder to make a profit, and as part of
the circle, the number of available jobs would actually reduce to
the point where having more than one would become illegal.

> What is more, in approached like this the money is
> considered a fundamental "right".  This creates an
> entire class of people who think they have a right
> to expect to be supported.

This has happened in many "western" countries including New
Zealand, England, and Holland to name the ones that I'm
personally familiar with.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:50:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:50:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RPGs
In-Reply-To: <95.1b594c7e.29f6ba34@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :
> tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> > GDW, Chaosium, WRG, TSR, Flying Buffalo, Steve Jackson,
> > Steve Curtis, and many other primarily wargaming
> > companies were all in the process of adding fantasy
> > wargaming and roleplaying systems of various forms
> > to their wargames, largely due to the popularity
> > of "Lord of the Rings" at the time. These were based
> > originally on personalization details for their army
> > "generals" and "special figures", and also on the trend
> > toward small scale "skirmish" wargames where the individual
> > figures were heavily personalized and even given "character",
> > of which "Chainmail" was just one, and not the most
> > influential either.
>
> You've obviously done considerable research if you
> know of Steve Curtis -- few people do nowadays.

It's not research, just memory. I was heavily involved in
wargaming at the time.
I still have a lot of boardganes and few thousand lead figures in
various scales.

I have a letter from Steve's dad telling me of his unfortunate
death somewhere.
I had ordered another copy of his Old West Skirmish rules, as my
original had become pretty heavily worn (they were only
gestetners or photocopies of the typed manuscripts at the the
time, no fancy printing like you get these days <grin>), along
with a new pair of d20's, and his dad filled the order and gave
me the news.

> >While I'm not going to deny D&D's importance, it was not, IMO,
> >neccessary for the development of roleplaying.
>
> I'm not as certain of that as you are . . . let us
> agree to disagree.

Certainy. I was, after all, merely expressing my opinion.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:53:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:53:58 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC74249.2877.6779B3@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are
> by officers in the Captain to Colonel range, with
> the next group being those run by Generals, though
> these are quite often one General  replacing another
> and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have
> to do more reading, methinks.

You will, a coup in one of the West Inddian isles (Grenada?) was
led by a Corporal, IIRC

And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424.145416.-149337.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> Well, I hate to butt in here, but I'm a prime
> example of the above conversation.
>
> I'm disabled as you all know, pulling in roughly
> $17.5k via S.S. and my disability pension.

Just to show that "tolerable" is definitely relative:

What you are are earning on your benefits, is, when translated to
New Zealand dollars, almost _twice_ both the average wage, and
twice what a family of _six_ would be expected to live on in New
Zealand on the unemployment benefit.

It is more than what a non-senior teacher would earn and about
what a policeman would earn here after a year or so on the job.
It is approximately 1.25 times what I earned as an NCO avionics
technician in the Air Force

However, outside of a few high cost areas lke New York city and
the Silcon Valley environs, the cost of living in New Zealand is
not appreciably lower than that in the US (at least according to
my sister who has recently returned from  the US), so what (you
seem to be implying) constitutes hardship for you, would be
considered moderately well to do in New Zealand.

Of course, I'm sure someone from Russia could point out they
could live like a king on 17.5K USD p.a.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 03:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr 25 02:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8A@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Pitt [mailto:frankie@mundens.gen.nz]
> Sent: 25 April 2002 09:57
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] RE: Bayonets
> 
> 
> Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> > Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are
> > by officers in the Captain to Colonel range, with
> > the next group being those run by Generals, though
> > these are quite often one General  replacing another
> > and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have
> > to do more reading, methinks.
> 
> You will, a coup in one of the West Inddian isles (Grenada?) was
> led by a Corporal, IIRC
> 
> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.
> 
> Frankie

And IIRC Idi Amin was a Sergeant

Matt 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:12:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <200204241458.EXD05545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20425.005842.9d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn says
> <snip about the "smart" camera system>
>
> The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
> the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
> Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
> to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
> serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
> incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
> be.
>
> Factor in the following:
>
> a.  Criminal warrant issued, but no picture
> b.  Criminal warrant issued, but not entered into database in 
> a timely manner
> c.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
> found not guilty, data not updated
> d.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
> does his time, is released, and data not updated

e. Criminal warrant issued, data entry goof and innocent person's data
attached.

This happens with depressing regularity with systems that are used by
local police and sheriffs departments to put out wants & warrants info
nationwide. 

Several incidents were reported in comp.risks over the years. One of
the problems is that far to many of the systems that local deparetments
feed the data from *other* departments into have no provisions for
receiving *corrections*.

At least one person had to get a signed, notarized letter from the
department that had issued the original erroneus report and carry it
with him when travelling as otherwise any time he got stopped for
*anything*, he'd wind up in the local jail waiting for their attempts
to arrange for him to be picked up and transferred to come back with a
"Huh? We don't want that guy..."

The letter merely changes things so that he can get the department
that's picked him up to actually make a direct *call* to the original
department, and it has enough info that even if the get a new clerk on
the other end, he only loses an hour or two instead of a day or two.

And in spite of the hassles, it's just plain *not* worth trying to sue,
because he'd have to travel *back* to East Podunk (or whereever they
picked him up) for the trial...

> I bet the actual error rate is over 50 percent.  Just go on 
> the web and look at the state of Maryland's sex offender 
> registry.  They state up front that they can't keep it up to 
> date.  They don't really know where these people live.  I 
> spoke to someone in that department, and they said that the 
> only way to find out accurate information about a particular 
> individual is to call and ask for an actual check - they go 
> out and find the individual in question.

Yeah. It's no better with the "private" databases the departments
assemble from the stuff they get off the "wire". 

> The culture and infrastructure for systems like these to be 
> near 100 percent accurate do not exist.

Well, some day, an "important" person will get hit *badly* by one, and
maybe get Congress to pass a law that will attempt to require more
checking of data.

OBTrav should be obvious. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:15:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:15:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B88@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <20425.012317.8s4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>  And
>> who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
>> crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or 
>> just those
>> detained by the police at some previous time?  What about 
>> those who have
>> already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going 
>> to be harassed
>> by the police.
>
> I would expect that the idea was to only inclued persistent
> shoplifters/vandals/muggers/car thieves etc
> And it is hardly and great difficulty to flag each record with an expiry
> date.

No, but in the real world, such databases *aren't* designed with any
such flag. Which bites many innocent people every year.

> So upon a criminal coming before the courts for the umpteenth time for
> such offences the court can order that their 'mugshot' be placed on the
> system for a specified length of time. If they stop offending then after
> that time they are removed from the database.

And if the wrong photo gets placed in the file, the innocent person
will have a fight to get it removed. If the database is shared with
*other* areas, they will have to fight in each and every place they
visit. 

And a private citizen can't *afford* that sort of fight. Which is why
such systems are a bad idea. When they screw up, the effects on the
innocent are *way* out of proportion.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:18:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:18:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <20425.011146.9J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]
>
>> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they' 
>> wanted to trial in 
>> the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras were linked 
>> to a database 
>> containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to 
>> alert the local 
>> police when a 'non-desirable' tried entering the city center 
>> (note; in 
>> England, shopping centers/malls can exclude people for 
>> illegal behviour, so 
>> this is not considered a violation of their rights).
>> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
>> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of 
>> 10,000 bodies 
>> would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals 
>> free to go about 
>> their crimes...
>
> Ummm, not quite...
>
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

No. 

The 4% error rate means that 4% of the people scanned will be
misidentied. So 4% of the people who don't have pictures in the
database would be mistakenly identifed as people in the database AND 4%
of the people scanned who *were* in the database would fail to be
identified.

Thing is, if there are only 100 people in the database, and 10,000
people scanned (and we will assume that the 100 in the database are
part of the total scanned) you get these results:

9,900 people not in database. 
4% false positives = 396

100 people in database
4% false negatives = 4

So, the end results are:

9504 correctly identified as not in database
 396 incorrectly identified as being in database
  96 correctly identified as being in database
   4 incorrectly identified as being in database.

Which means that out of 492 people "tagged", only 96 will be correct
IDs. That means that a bit over *80%* of those tagged will be incorrect
identifications. Which is a *totally* unacceptable error rate.

This is why they *don't* do generalized testing for things like AIDS.
The ratio of infected to uninfected is so *low* that the number of
false positives would *massively* overwhelm the true positives.

And the problem others were talking about is the entirely *independent*
problem of whether or not the folks correctly IDed as being in the
database are actually criminals. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC785BE.E6ACFF88@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CC884F5.17674.53C3CD@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 23:27, John Groth wrote:

> One of the things that annoyed me most about Twilight: 2000 (second
> edition) is that, according to the chargen rules, I did not exist. 
> According to T2K (2e), only Military Intelligence officers could perform
> interrogator duties; enlisted MI types were treated as equivalent to
> Support branch (i.e., mechanics and the like).  As an enlisted
> interrogator (MOS 97E4P) who currently has 18+ years of experience in
> the field, I was (understandably, I think) quite put out by this chargen
> rule, especially since very few MI commissioned officers in the US Army
> _ever_ learn how to interrogate prisoners of war.

As I was a grunt when I struck T2K 1e I didn't notice this, though I do 
remember being unimpressed by that on general principles. However T2k 
2e's insistence that military intelligence types take a -1 initiative 
rankled.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <20020424223740.A14385@4dv.net>
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500
Message-ID: <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 22:37, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
> >
> > Try being allergic to cig smoke.
> 
> That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
> <http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.

Yeah, right. Sure it doesn't. From what I've seen over the years just 
about anything is allergic to someone out there.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3CC8870B.29806.5BEAE4@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 9:09, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even farther with image
> intensifiers. Also, you might want not to leave much stuff around, which
> is quite hard if you have to remember collecting everything you smoke.

There's nothing quite like some smoker lighting up at night to give 
your position away. About the only way to hide all the light is to 
smoke in the sleeping bay of a full-overhead protected trench or 
bunker, with a blanket, sack or jecket over the enterance.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir
 we got trouble .
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500 <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> On 24 Apr 2002 at 22:37, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
> > >
> > > Try being allergic to cig smoke.
> >
> > That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
> > <http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.
>
> Yeah, right. Sure it doesn't. From what I've seen over the years just
> about anything is allergic to someone out there.
>

Now Rupert, The American Tobacco Institute has spent a lot of money
proving that cigarettes are good for you and you want us to believe on the
basis of your anecdotal evidence that they could cause someone a problem?
Get real buddy!


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20425.012810.2T3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in
> the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database? It
> is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken as one in 25
> of the members of the database will be misidentified... If there was only
> one picture in the database is there a 4% chance that any given person will
> be identified as it? Or much more likely, if there was only one person in
> the database 4% of the time the system would report 'no match' when
> analysing a picture of that individual.

Sorry, failure rates work *both* ways. There *will* be false matches,
not merely failures to make matches that should have been made.

Properly, they should have given the rates for false positives and for
false negatives. But the folks marketing such things don't want to
mention false positives. And without knowing the rates for both, as
well as the ratio of the total population to the number of people in
the database, you can't run numbers on this to properly evaluate it.

In another post, I did a rough evaluation with 4% error rate for both
positives and negatives. Note that for any given false positive rate,
the *number* of errors grows in direct proprtion to the size of the
population. If you scan twice as many people you get twice as many
errors. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:18:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:18:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <3CC7743B.26719.1EA397@localhost>
Message-ID: <20425.013434.5F0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 24 Apr 2002 at 10:58, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
>> Tod Glenn says
>> <snip about the "smart" camera system>
>> 
>> The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
>> the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
>> Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
>> to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
>> serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
>> incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
>> be.
>
> How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
> least keep the false positive rate down.

You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
have to be present at the trial *there*. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:21:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:21:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <20020425074906.B11272@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20425.015908.4k0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
>> of the period.
>
> Oops, it's the other way around :)
>
> (2 pi / T)^2 = G M / R^3
> so T^2 = k R^3, where k = (2 pi)^2 / (G M)

Tell the folks who printed the stronomy Quick Study reference card I
checked it on!

Aha! The text has it right, the formula below it has it wrong!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:24:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:24:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250924020.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20425.013633.5Q9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

That's better than the cartoon I have where an obvious Soviet guard
type is asking "Why are your papers in order?"

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:27:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:27:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Question on planetary orbits
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424234029.00ab4ef0@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <20425.033231.2x1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
>  >of the period.
>
> Keplers third law is that the square of the period is proportional to the 
> cube of the distance.

Blasted reference I was using had the law right in the text, but had
the exponents swapped in the formula. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:30:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:30:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  All of the above is interesting. But not my main Traveller theme part.
> For example <composing a reply to a prior msg with this topic> The entire
> premise above is dealing with the measurements of the micro$haft style of
> disks and formatting.

Actually, it's the method ised by floppy *and* hard disk controllers
for just about everything. GCR and all the rest of that was only used
by Apple and Commodore. Everybody else used the single chip FDC chips
that came out starting in 1977. And the similarly integrated HDC setups
that came out later.

The "low level" formatting is standard across just about all the
computer industry. The only variables are things like sector size and
number of sectors per track.

Dig up a spec sheet for any floppy controller chip and you'll see the
same info as to the things that can be varied. 

MS is using a format set by IBM and the "low level" stuff goes backk to
the original *mainframe* floppy disks (and hard drives) developed in
the 1960s.

I've got the manuals for an old mainframe hard drive, and the
controller level formatting options aren't that different from what
modern hard and floppy drives use. 

The Commodore setup really *is* an oddbal and *very* minority format.

> i use Commodore exclusively. First we measure in
> blocks 4 = 1kb. The single sided drives read thes disk at 664 C= blocks.

No, at the *hardware* level, it's still sectors and tracks. You just
have thungs like variable numbers of sectors per track, based on how
close to the cebter of the disk you are (I went into a lot of this with
a friend who had a VIC 20 and later a C-64 when we were trying to see
if we could reas each other's disks somehow).

Those "blocks" are equivalent to "clusters" on PC drives. And they are
a product of the OS, not the hardware. If you check into the low level
details, you'll find that the blocks are part of the *logical*
formatting (how the OS groups stuff and addresses it) not the
*physical* formatting (which is the sectors and tracks, encoded upon
the media). 

*If* Commodore had used FM and MFM encoding on the disks, rather than
GCR (basicly a different way of modulating the signal that represents
the bitstream on the media), then all it'd take to read a C-64 disk on
a PC would be some fancy software. 

As it is, it's like trying to read a Beta tape on a VHS machine. Even
if you feed the tape past the heads, the signal format is wrong. The
data encoded on the tapes is the *same* (NTSC video). 

But once you extract the bitstream, the floppy controller references
that as sectors and tracks. On a PC, we have access at that level. With
a 1541, the CPU in the 1541 has access at that level. You only have
access at the OS level (blocks, files etc) unless you can change the
code being run by the CPU in the drive.

>  Now then all tat said. We have talked about some converting things. using
> what I know which is a samttering of the techy stuff for the Commodore
> world. i have tools that allow translation on my system. Allowing me to
> translate from Pet to Ascii and back again. So that part is covered for
> text. I also have tools that allow scaling of JPGs and GIFs. These at
> videocam. That allow for my screen size. I have tools to pas along to the
> windoze and Amiga users that allow the text translation for my preferred
> DT <Desk Top> system Geos. Even the ability to make .D64 image files for
> the emulator users.

Again, you are conflating a bunch of *independent* things:

1. media type/encoding (ie what the data is stored on and how the bits
   are encoded onto the media)
   
   Examples: holes punched in paper tape, holes punched in any of
   several types of punch card, bits coded onto magnetic tape in any of
   several ways, bits on floppy disks in GCR/FM/MFM. Bits on Had drives
   in FM/MFM/RLL/ERLL

2. Media formatting (tracks, sectors, etc)

   Examples: tapes formatted with Unit, record, block, etc marks
   Disks formatted into sectors, tracks, cylinders

3. OS formatting (files, directories, etc)

   Examples: different directory & file structures in TRS-DOS (at least
   5 versions I know of that are incompatible with each other), MS-DOS,
   Mac, Apple II (at least 2 OSes), CP/M, Unix, etc

4. File formatting (how the bits and bytes inside the file represent
   the data)

   Examples: Wordstar, WordPerfect, Scripsit, MS Word, PerfectWriter
   All word processors, all encoding text with formatting
   instructions, all available for MS-DOS, all using different
   formats.

5. output device & formatting (how the data is presented to the user)
   
   Examples: fixed pitch printer, no backspace/overstrike.
             fixed pitch printer with backspace/overstrike
             proportional font printer
             loadable font printer
             "graphics" printer (ie anything that prints stuff as a
               "image fed by the computer)
   All hardcopy output devices, with different sorts of inputs and
   different output capabilities.
    

I'm saying that for the most part level 4 will be uniform. Everybody
will use or be able to translate to/from the standard Imperial file
formats.

The limits will be most a case of not being able to handle some formats
because your equipment isn't up to it.

Probably levels of difficult:

fixed pitch text in local alphabet
fixed pitch text in multiple alphabets
formatted text in local alphabets
formatted text in multiple alphabets

Still images (ie low res pixel graphics)
still images (fax/wirephoto)
still images (photos)

Audio (with various levels as bit rate and mono/stereo are added)

Video

Holo

>  OK what I am looking at on this topic is the same type of things in tols
> and utils for converting different standards and platforms in the 3I.
> Based and projecting from the exisitng styles we have now. Putting that
> into the CT game.

Depends on whether you are receiving a *signal* or media. 

If you are receiving media, you need a reader and one or more levels of
concerter to get the files out. Once you have the files, it's fairly
simple to have software take it the rest of the way. 

My list above dealt (mostly) with media.

If you have a signal, the levels are similar but different. 

Look up the OSI model for one way to break that sort of thing down.

The important thing to realize is that at *any* level of a properly
designed system, you can swap the stuff that deal with that level out
and replace it with something that handles it differently, and not
affect things much.

In fact, the C-64 is better suited demonstrating that than most
systems. Compare the way you read/write from a tape, a 1541, the
IEEE-488 based Commodore business systems drive that uses the same
floppies and format as the 1541, a hard drive etc.

As I recall, for reading/writing a *file* all you'd change is the unit
number or some such. 

So the problems faced by the players be a matter of which levels things
are incompatible at.

Wrong media (cassette instead of disk? Wrong size disk?)

Wrong encoding (GCR vs MFM or the like. Or 5 channel versus 8-channel
paper tape)

Wrong formatting (wrong size sectors? Wrong number of sector, tracks,
whatever) 

Wrong OS? (A PC formatted floppy written by OS/2 isn't much use with Windows)

Wrong file format (It's in Wordstar, they have wordPerfect)

Or a combination of the above if you are really feeling evil.

And to be *supremely* evil, when the get the data, it may be in the
wrong language. Or be a picture taken by a species that has a different
spectral sensitivity (ie, we see red to vilet. They see short IR to
Blue. Or Orange to near UV) 

That last is fun if you have a decent graphics program or if you
understand how BMPs or other non-compressed image formats store data.
Removing the color(s) they don't see is fairly easy if you are a
programmer geek. Shifting the colors is a bit harder. *Adding* the
color they don't see is harder.

Ever try recognizing something from a color IR picture? <eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
References: <20020425052154.B00C227A9C@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>

Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
very, very large capital ships?

I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
spinal mounts.

I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
sharing.

By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

Thanks, all.

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir  we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC898A7.17942.A0B903@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 7:05, alan spik wrote:

> Now Rupert, The American Tobacco Institute has spent a lot of money
> proving that cigarettes are good for you and you want us to believe on the
> basis of your anecdotal evidence that they could cause someone a problem?
> Get real buddy!

Rule #1: Follow the money.

I have no monetary interest in getting people to stop smoking, they 
have lots of interest in getting as many people smoking as much tobacco 
as possible.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:03:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:03:58 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC898A8.8362.A0BA58@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 6:36, David Smart wrote:

> Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> very, very large capital ships?
> 
> I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
> spinal mounts.
> 
> I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
> sharing.
> 
> By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
> TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

Hmm. Wasn't there an Auri-Tech research vessel around that would fill 
the bill?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:07:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:07:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <20425.013434.5F0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <3CC7743B.26719.1EA397@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC898A7.24874.A0B7D7@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 1:34, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
> > least keep the false positive rate down.
> 
> You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
> entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
> take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
> have to be present at the trial *there*. 

Well sue the originating organisation. Then sue 'em for libel in that 
they spread false infermation about you.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
Message-ID: <F1783GykBbKP7Ie8tlM000034bd@hotmail.com>

From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>

     "heres the second in my series of conversions"


Mr. Cat,

     Bravo, sir!  Well done!  Your conversions have been superb, hence the 
near total lack of comment about them on the List!
     Please enjoy the TML's Black Hole of Quality.  Could you drop the rest 
of us a postcard and let us know what that place is like?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S.  Would any of the more artistically inclined members of the List care 
to design a "TML Black Hole of Quality" medallion?  I thinking something the 
size of a gaudy soup plate on a crepe paper ribbon.  Hmmm, perhaps a simple 
lapel pin would be more appropriate...


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (silverberg)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Spacedoc v1.2 or later
Message-ID: <000801c1ec58$66b74ad0$720b1ed4@tyrell001>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I am looking for the above program or similar. Unfortunately all the
links I have found so far are obsolete. Can any one help me find this
program?
 
Many Thanks
 
Regards
 
Silverberg
 
 

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I am looking for the above program or similar. =
Unfortunately
all the links I have found so far are obsolete. Can any one help me find =
this
program?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Many Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <F1783GykBbKP7Ie8tlM000034bd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEHCDMAA.tml@downport.com>

The new diet craze! Put on a black hole lapel pin and everyone will think
you're eating when you aren't getting a single bite!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade

> P.S.  Would any of the more artistically inclined members of the
> List care
> to design a "TML Black Hole of Quality" medallion?  I thinking
> something the
> size of a gaudy soup plate on a crepe paper ribbon.  Hmmm,
> perhaps a simple
> lapel pin would be more appropriate...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22715@USCHM203>

>I was at Benning when that happened. The common reaction was "who cares" 
>and the clubs on VD Drive never bothered to check IDs.

You were lucky. The Marines were a lot stricter. And at about the same time
they pretty much tore down Court Street, which was where all the good (or
bad if you were an MP)bars were.
So you had about 10,000 or young Marines who were able to enjoy a few beers
one weekend, and not able to the next. Fights and disciplinary violations
actually increased.
I agree that there are situations where smoking is a bad idea, but a blanket
ban on smoking would do more harm than good, in my opinion. 99% of
servicemen are not going to be in a position where it matters.

>Having addicts in the trenches does not aid 
in the mission.

I don't think jonesing for a cigarette is the same as having a heroin
withdrawal, and aside from VC with good noses in very specific
circumstances, I fail to see how smoking has any effect on combat
effectiveness. Yes, it reduces lung capacity and endurance, but those 50% +
smokers in my unit could still run six miles the same as the non-smokers.
Obviously, common sense would preclude smoking on opreations where stealth
was required. There doesn't need to be any sweeping edict affecting the
entire Army.

For the record, there were periods in the field where no smoking was allowed
for weeks. There was grumbling, but no one went into a disabling nicotine
fit.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <B8ED52C0.5887D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/25/02 1:56 AM, Frank Pitt at frankie@mundens.gen.nz wrote:

> 
> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.

Austrian Corporal. And I would call it a coup when you are elected to ofice
by popular vote.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F235nUTBnxARhnHcWhl00004133@hotmail.com>

>From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>
>Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
>very, very large capital ships?

Half a dozen or so and more hiding in my backpocket (i.e. on my HD).

>I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
>spinal mounts.

Is a 406 Gj Meson gun fitted to a 900'000 dt Dreadnough enough? If not I 
have a 2 Mdt design on my hardrive (but that is streching things a bit).

>I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
>sharing.

All you can eat at Dimash Starships:
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/starships.html

>By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
>TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

Spreadsheets availible at request for most designs.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <019901c1ec5f$4ae870c0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 4:56 AM
Subject: RE: [TML] RE: Bayonets


> Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> > Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are
> > by officers in the Captain to Colonel range, with
> > the next group being those run by Generals, though
> > these are quite often one General  replacing another
> > and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have
> > to do more reading, methinks.
>
> You will, a coup in one of the West Inddian isles (Grenada?) was
> led by a Corporal, IIRC
>
> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.
>
> Frankie
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:46:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:46:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F251utSgcOrBLSAQV6u0000a9dd@hotmail.com>

I don't know if this message showed up correctly so I'm reposting it (Davied 
Smart didn't see it on the digest). My applogies if you have allready seen 
it.

------------

>Mr. Holmstrm,
>
>I'm a member of the TML and I recently ran across an old email you sent out 
>proposing rules for the building of chem-det lasers using Bruce Macintosh's 
>"MCS" starship combat rules.
>
>If you're still playing Traveller and it isn't an imposition on you, could 
>you tell me if you ever finished a final draft of your rules?

Ohh, I'm still playing Traveller/reading the TML. The short answer to
your question is "sort of yes" but the long answer is more interesting.
I tried to pick apart the NukeDet tables in FFS and the warhead table
in MCS and reverse engineer the Frag and ChemDet warheads using MCS and
FFS. The major problems are that the ChemDet and Frag warheads mentioned in 
MCS might be handwaved and lacks stats (mass/vol/price). More details on 
NukeDets in FFS1/2 would also help. The discussion below assumes that the 
reader knows FFS and MCS. If I'm unclear somewhere just yell.

Most of my argument uses this table from MCS:
>Type                    Pen:Damage     Defence Nuclear Det-Laser            
>                                            TL15    19:13           -7
>                TL13    18:12           -7
>                TL10    17:11           -7
>Chemical Det-Laser-13   13:10           -6
>Fragmentation KKMSIM-10 10:14           -3

If the ChemDets are supposed to have a PEN calue of 13 this means that it 
must have a FFS2 DV of at least 21 (assuming PEN = 10*DAM => MCS DAM 7). 
This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking about a 
X-ray laser to it needs to be at least TL13. MCS states that NukeDets has a 
penetration value of 20 times the FFS2 damage value (instead of the usual 
PEN = 10xDAM). Further it states that the warhead (as a whole) has twice the 
damage compared to the listed damage (per beam) in FFS2. This can be used to 
determine the yield of the NukeDets used in the MCS missile table. Note that 
all the warheads mass around 500 kg.

TL     Yield    Damage  Wt       Vol
10     100 kt    80     540 kg   270 l
13     200 kt    94     500 kg   250 l
15     500 kt   113     500 kg   250 l

From the PD modifiers in MCS I drew the conclusion that ChemDets detonate 
closer to their target than DetNukes and that Frags detonates even closer. 
At shorter distances the missile will be easier to hit but this works both 
ways. Every -1 on defence makes the missile twice as hard to hit (based on 
PD RoF modifiers).

Warhead      Eff.
NukeDet       1
ChemDet       2
Frag         16

To bring the damage of the ChemDet warhead up to DAM 10 we need to hit the 
target 3 times (compared with 2 for NukeDets)using 40Mj laser pulses. Since 
the ChemDet detonates at a more efficient distance we only have to use 67% 
as many lasing rods as on a NukeDet.

Here is where we run out of information. How many lasing rods are there in a 
NukeDet? Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow 
up) or something more powerful (that does)? Can a lasing rod (as used in 
NukeDets) also be used with chemicals? What is the cost/weight/volume of the 
lasing rod and tracking telescope?


There are two ways to handle this.

1. Assume that all warheads in the MCS missile list are 500 kg/250 l. The 
cost of the ChemDet warhead is anybody's guess but say 100 kCr. The ChemDet 
with PEN13 and DAM10 will represent the baseline warhead and can be modified 
as follows.

Modify weight and volume based on Tech Level.

TL  Wt and Vol mod
13   1.00
16   0.67

By changing the power and number of the lasing rods different warheads can 
be constructed. Change the PEN and DAM values and then apply the weight, 
volume and price modifiers. Each extra point can be added to either DAM or 
PEN but not to both.  Points can also be transferred (e.g. PEN+1/DAM-1) at 
no cost.

Bonus*   Wt, Vol and Price mod
+1          1.5  (1.46)
+2          2.0  (2.15)
+3          3.0  (3.16)
+4          4.5  (4.65)
+5          7.0  (6.81)
+6         10.0  (10.0)
For negative modifiers divide instead.

Examples

A TL11 ChemDet warhead (-2).
Pen = 13 - 1 = 12.
Dam = 10 - 1 = 9.
Wt = 500 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 500 kg.
Vol = 250 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 250 l.
Price = 100 / 2.0 = 50 kCr.

A TL13 Heavy ChemDet Warhead (+3).
Pen = 13 + 2 = 15.
Dam = 10 + 1 = 11.
Wt = 500 * 3.0 = 1500 kg.
Vol = 500 * 3.0 = 750 l.
Price = 100 * 3.0 = 300 kCr.


A +3 ChemDet warhead and a ring of imperial intervention is all a traveller 
needs. ;) The modifiers are based on the 6*log10 damage scale of MCS and the 
Chemical Lasing Cartridge efficiency table. I believe this gives reasonable 
numbers but one might want to differentiate the TL table a bit.


2. Running the numbers of a 500 kg warhead using standard components.

A 40Mj 10 cm X-ray focal array with 10'000 km effective range at TL13.
Focal area  : 0.007854 m2.
Focal vol   : 0.000314 m3.
Focal mass  : 0.314 kg.
Focal price : 31.4 Cr.

Input energy  : 61.54 Mj.
Cartridge wt  : 30.77 kg.
Cartridge vol : 3.127 l.
I can't find the listed price for CLC cartridges in FFS2 so I use FFS1 
figures instead.
Cartridge price : 1850 Cr.

The weight limitation allows 16 cartridges to be fitted.
Warhead Wt    : 497.3 kg.
Warhead Vol   : 55.06 l.
Warhead Price : 30 kCr.

The result a very cheap and compact warhead but I doubt that 16 cartridges 
are enough since a NukeDet probably has more than 24 lasing rods. Building 
the thing with TL15 will allow for 21 cartridges and TL16 gets us 35 (mainly 
due to better cartridges). To be completely legal the warhead would need a 
beampointer which adds ~1000 kg at TL13. With a beampointer it is hard to 
see how any of the beams could miss at all.

Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a lot. 
TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge? Double this?


Ideas/Comments are welcomed.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>

From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>

     "I've done this with a Vargar steward on my groups ship. Keeping her in 
fresh meat is a real challenge at points. Especially since she insists on 
sharing it all with the passengers and crew."


Sir,

     Nice touch!  A steward with odd culinary ideas sounds great.  Have the 
PCs loathe the meals she prepares BUT she also lures lots of high passengers 
aboard with the same.  The PCs Beowulf could get a rep for catering to a 
certain type of traveller; they pay well and are just annoying enough to 
make the PCs batty.

     "Hadn't really thought of the ingredient angle.  Thanks Larsen."

     Your very welcome.  Have your PCs set aside a low berth for the Vargr 
steward's "supplies"?  Or rigged up a similar device in the hold or 
engineering?  How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy 
stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other supplies 
and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require PRECISE 
enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the constant risk 
of possible allergens from all those plants wafting their way through the 
ventilation system...


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:57:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:57:05 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
Message-ID: <F182WZbQLbzjADMBLxt00008700@hotmail.com>

John Groth <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
> > On 23 Apr 2002 at 13:04, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >
> > > The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST
> > > series is that everyone is an officer.
> >
> > That didn't bother me in the slightest, seeing as there were often
> > engineering officers doing what we'd have ratings employed at.
> > Obviously the later Star Trek period saw a lot of 'job inflation' in
> > the Federation. Probably some bureaucrat thought it'd help morale or
> > recruitment if everyone in Starfleet got to be an officer.
>
>I suspect that the rank inflation of the ST universe (and many other
>fictional universes) has more to do with the observation that Robert
>Heinlein (adroitly bringing the thread back to its title) made in _Job:
>A Comedy of Justice_ that civilians automatically seem to equate
>themselves with officers, regardless of the actual position the
>civilians in question hold in the employment and/or social hierarchy.

This may not be accurate, as I'm drawing on secondary sources
(FASA's Star Trek RPG) for this...

Starfleet has a whole rack of Enlisted and NCO ranks, and
people of these ranks make up the majority of the organization.

We, the viewers, keep seeing special and unusual cases.
For example, _USS Enterprise_ (from the old series) was one
of only twelve Constitution-class cruisers, and such ships
were the most prestigious ships in Galaxy Exploration Command,
which was the most prestigious division of Starfleet.  The
crews of these special ships were officers from Captain
down to bottle-washer.

Lesser ships in the Galaxy Exploration Command would have
some enlisted personnel in their crews, and ships in the less
prestigious commands (such as the Merchant Marine or
Colonial Operations Command) would have a more traditional
enlisted to officers ratio.

As I said, this is material from a secondary source, so it
may be inaccurate.  It may even be a whole-cloth creation
of the game designers, rather than a report of the actual
organization of Gene Rodenberry's Starfleet.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <F24sxyWSBuhOF3Gc76o0000388d@hotmail.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

     "I once ran an Aftermath campaign where the players were kept busy 
looking for ingredients for an omelet by a deranged gourmand in return for 
some penicillin."


Mr. Glenn,

     Ooooh, nasty, I like it!
     As a GM, I loved the "we need a nail" trick; getting the PCs to WANT to 
dance to your tune through the use of scavenger hunts.  I never really ran 
any high powered campaigns, so my PCs never needed a lefthanded frommitz 
board in order to turn back the Zho invasion.  Instead, they chased about 
after will o' the wisps as a way of making, or saving, some fast credits.
     A multi-jump high passenger, and her entourage, who will require a 
glass of tomato juice, a nobble steak, 90% humidity in her stateroom, a 
large panetella, and several rounds of whist EACH AND EVERY day while aboard 
really whipsaws the PCs.  They'll slaver over the credits they could make 
and chase around like goofs after the incidentals they'll need to bring it 
off.  That gives the GM oodles of ways to introduce new plots, new NPCs, new 
obstacles, new everything into the campaign.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:05:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:05:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <B8ED52C0.5887D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8ED5AC3.58886%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/25/02 6:29 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> on 4/25/02 1:56 AM, Frank Pitt at frankie@mundens.gen.nz wrote:
> 
>> 
>> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
>> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.
> 
> Austrian Corporal. And I would call it a coup when you are elected to ofice
> by popular vote.
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.


Sorry.  I WOULDN'T call is a coup....
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <20020425052152.7692927A9A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004901c1ec65$0d704c80$7f5d8690@computer>

> From: Lord Ronin from Q-Link 
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?
> 
>  The incorrect response is "Sorry Man I've only got a pipe."

<chuckle>

A _very_ incorrect response.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>; from babyduck@mindspring.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 07:05:51AM -0400
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost> <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020425084838.A15956@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 07:05:51AM -0400, alan spik wrote:
> 
> Now Rupert, The American Tobacco Institute has spent a lot of money
> proving that cigarettes are good for you and you want us to believe on the
> basis of your anecdotal evidence that they could cause someone a problem?
> Get real buddy!

The site I referenced was the usual medical smoking is EEEVIL sort of
claptrap, but even it admitted that smoke is not an allergen, but can
exacerbate _other_ allergies, and asthma.  As I noted.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink
I feel ashamed.  Then I look into the glass and think about
the workers in the brewery and all of their hopes and
dreams.  If I didn't drink this beer, they might be out of
work and their dreams would be shattered.  Then I say to
myself, `It is better that I drink this beer and let their
dreams come true than be selfish and worry about my liver.'
                                             --Unattributed

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 09:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr 25 08:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Judder-drive?
Message-ID: <DAV22gADGFXpWvFmaWn0000574a@hotmail.com>

Did this one die on the vine?

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns9999242

19:00 06 December 00

Full text follows:


A juddering magnet has inspired a scientist at the US Department of Energy
to investigate a bizarre new way of propelling a spacecraft.

The idea for a "judder-drive" struck David Goodwin when he noticed that
powerful, cryogenically-cooled superconducting magnets often jolt in one
direction for a centimetre or two when you first turn them on.

"If you have something metal in the magnetic field as it is forming, you see
the magnet physically shift," says Goodwin, who works at the Office of High
Energy and Nuclear Physics in Germantown, Maryland.

Superconducting magnets are cooled to such a low temperature that they have
no electrical resistance. Goodwin's magnets were made by taking
superconducting wires of niobium-tin alloy and twisting the strands into a
cable. The cables were then coated with an insulator and wound into a coil.
"The coil's then put into a cylindrical casing called a cryostat that's
filled with liquid helium," says Goodwin. The liquid helium cools the wire
coil to -269 C, when they become superconducting.

Goodwin says the metal objects create the judder effect by inducing a "brief
asymmetry in the magnetic field" as it is set up when the magnet is turned
on. This initial disturbance of the magnetic field, he says, creates a
repulsive force on the magnet and pushes it away.

But the force produced in one jolt is very low, Goodwin says, so you would
need to turn the magnet on and off with ultrafast switches, making a fast
stream of jolts. "We've got switches now that can work at high voltages at
400,000 times a second," he says. "If you could use one of these switches to
rapidly switch the magnet on and off, you might get some propulsion out of
it."

A colleague of Goodwin's at Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York is
now modelling the magnetic field of superconducting magnets to work out how
best to arrange a metallic disc in the magnetic field to produce the biggest
jolt. But Goodwin admits the judder drive might be going nowhere fast. "It's
very speculative. We don't know if it'll work," he says.

Marc Millis, who heads NASA's breakthrough propulsion physics project at the
NASA Glenn Research Center at Lewis Field in Cleveland, Ohio, has invited
Goodwin to present his idea at a propulsion conference in July next year.

The crucial thing, says Millis, is whether Goodwin's magnet would produce
any net motion at all - it might just sit there and vibrate. "It's a
definite possibility that any forces arising from Goodwin's concept will
only act within the components of the device itself, resulting in no net
force," he says. "There are a lot of unresolved physics issues to address."

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <3CC82CB1.6050208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Matthew Bond wrote:

> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in
> the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database? It
> is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken as one in 25
> of the members of the database will be misidentified... 

Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here, 
comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.

You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via 
your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of 
false positives and false negatives.

That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously, 
whihc means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched 
erroneously.

If they seriously start arresting, harassing, and otherwise 
incoveniencing people based on this system those shop owners are going 
to lose a lot more business that they would have ever lost by letting 
known shoplifters into their stores.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . .
 yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <20020424223740.A14385@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204250919130.24595-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
> >
> > Try being allergic to cig smoke.
> 
> That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
> <http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.
> 
> Perhaps you're slightly asthmatic, or have other allergies which smoke
> in generl triggers?

Tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens, but many of the things that
tobacco is treated with are allergenic.

I used to live in Kentucky where much of the world's tobacco is grown.  I
would become very ill every year during the spraying season.  You are
smoking, when you smoke cigarettes, all of the pesticides and other
chemicals.  I am not allergic to tobacco, but I have allergic reactions
that are very real to most cigarettes and an even more severe reaction to
the stale ashes of cigarettes.

Robert, you smoke good tobacco. I believe you smoke cigars or a pipe.  I
assure you cigarettes are very different.

Even the cloves I like to smoke once or twice a year cause me some
problems, which is probably why I never got addicted-- I couldn't ever
smoke more than one or two and couldn't do it multiple days in a row.

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:27:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:27:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . .
 yessir we got trouble .
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500 <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC82DFF.50605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Yeah, right. Sure it doesn't. From what I've seen over the years just 
> about anything is allergic to someone out there.
> 

<cringe> People are 'allergic', things are 'allergenic' to people...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <019901c1ec5f$4ae870c0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020425093636.00a0fec0@mindspring.com>

At 09:44 AM 4/25/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
>wars

And 0 for 2 in finishing them...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:40:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:40:11 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019752592.311.ajackson@ping>

David Smart writes:
> Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> very, very large capital ships?

Most of the designs I've seen floating about have been TL 15, I'm not sure you
can build a huge TL 12 capital ship.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:44:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:44:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . .yessir we got trouble .
Message-ID: <200204251643.EZD03454@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
><cringe> People are 'allergic', things are 'allergenic' to 
>people...
>

More to the point - it is possible for a substance to be an 
irritant, with severe effects, and yet provoke no allergic 
response.  Many of the gaseous constituents of tobacco smoke 
probably fall into this category.

Also, some chemicals can make you more sensitive to other 
irritants and allergens.  Toluene di-isocyanate, a popular 
industrial solvent, is famous for turning people into 
permanent asthmatics.

The person at the most risk, however, is probably the 
smoker.  Second hand smoke carries risks, and is an irritant, 
to be sure.  But of all of the things in the cigarette, two 
stand out.  Carbon monoxide is inhaled in sufficient 
quantities to bind hemoglobin for long periods of time.  And 
nicotine is a poison.  Nicotine, as purchased from a plant 
care store, or concentrated from tobacco, is a lethal agent 
if spilled on the skin.  And the smoker is breathing both of 
these agents in concentrations far higher than the person 
receiving the smoke second-hand.

In real life, it's not a healthy thing to be doing to 
yourself, or the others around you.  But, like other risk-
taking that we engage in, it's something that a fair number 
of people accept.  It is far more dangerous to drive your car 
to work everyday.  It is far more dangerous to allow yourself 
to become overweight, or to constantly eat fatty foods.

I am polite enough not to smoke in the presence of people I 
know will be irritated by it.  I was able to stop smoking at 
will in the field, and it never affected my ability to run or 
yomp.  

ObTrav:  IMTU It's a fantastic world of the future - they 
call it tobacco, but centuries of genetic engineering and 
chemistry have produced a product which is largely harmless 
(still working on that carbon monoxide).  Some people might 
find it an irritating habit.  And tactically, it's still a 
bad idea.  Other worlds have come up with other things to 
smoke as well.

As evidenced by "stuff on a stick" at the Regina starport, 
nothing at all has been done about fatty foods.  There are 
plenty of nachos, ding dongs, and powdered sugar donuts in 
the Far Future.
________________
There's a man who leads a life of danger
To everyone he meets he stays a stranger
With every move he makes another chance he takes 
Odds are he won't live to see tomorrow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <OF5C76E27C.BD421F78-ON85256BA6.005BCA1B@pheaa.org>






>>Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
>>wars

>And 0 for 2 in finishing them...

I don't believe Germany actually started WWI. if i remember correctly a
Serbian shot the Arch Duke this got Austria into a war then because of the
way the treaties were set up back then it was a domino effect pulling in
the other countries.

However by the time the war was over Germany had been blamed for WWI.
because they where blamed they were forced to pay reparations and
militarily eviscerated. this cause a lot of Germans to lose pride in being
German. Hitler used this to his advantage. he gave them pride again and so
they followed him.

of course this is a very very small aspect of the whole thing that i don't
have time to go into right now. i love WW2 history and took several courses
on it in both high school and college. and if given the chance could talk
about it all day 8P

anyway

Hasta

Bill









From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 11:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr 25 10:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>

From another list.  Not confirmed by me.

< Begin quote >
A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a plan
to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," Williams said in
a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, Ala.,
resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science from
the
University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in business
management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super Market at
Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
< End quote >

Opinions?

ObTrav: How about a planet that imposes a 100% sales tax on off-worlders.
And don't forget departure taxes...

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 11:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 10:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <200204251751.g3PHpXP22829@premier1.premier.net>

> David Smart writes:
> > Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> > very, very large capital ships?
> 
> Most of the designs I've seen floating about have been TL 15, I'm not sure you
> can build a huge TL 12 capital ship.

The largest TL-12 warship I designed is the 160,000 dton _Agincourt_-class.  
Given that Doug Berry's _Coronation_-class (which was used in butchered form in 
_Imperial Squadrons_) was 90,000 dtons, I would consider _Agincourt_ as 
probably a Late M:0 design.

Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my designs for 
_Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).  Note that all three 
of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry NPAW spinal mounts; I've never 
been a big fan of meson guns.  Besides, there are enough other designers who 
_are_ fond of meson guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that 
ecological niche.

I can repost any or all of these designs when I get home this
evening.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>




<snip>
< Begin quote >
A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
plan
to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
</snip>
<snip>
Opinions?
</snip>

Well if it is true then it makes me ashamed to be from Alabama. however
this guy being from Huntsville wanting to bolster NASA money is not
surprising. Huntsville is a huge NASA area. lot of research goes on there.

this is assuming this is true.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:05:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204251804.g3PI4bP24553@premier1.premier.net>

 
> >>Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
> >>wars
> 
> >And 0 for 2 in finishing them...
> 
> I don't believe Germany actually started WWI. if i remember correctly a
> Serbian shot the Arch Duke this got Austria into a war then because of the
> way the treaties were set up back then it was a domino effect pulling in
> the other countries.

And that was the point.  Austria-Hungary used Archduke Dul^h^h^h Ferdinand's 
assassination as a pretext to destroy Serbia, thus kicking off WWI.  Then, an 
_Austrian_ corporal led Germany into beginning WWII.

<<snip>>

ObTrav:  A third Alternate Imperium (along with the GTU and Mr. Whipsnade's 
Wounded Colossus) could begin with the same event (Dulinor's death) as the 
GTU.  However, in the Guns of August TU, Dulinor's assassins have links to an 
extra-Imperial power [EIP] (your choice) [my suggestion would be a polity in 
the Vargr Extents (the closest thing to the Balkans in the TU, IMHO)].  The 3I 
decides to use this as a _casus belli_ to destroy said EIP.  Unfortunately, 
other EIPs feel threatened by the upsetting of the balance of power and declare 
war on the 3I.  Still other EIPs then ally with the 3I, thus kicking off a 
general
war.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:09:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:09:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>; from texasredshift@hotmail.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:42:03PM -0500
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020425120658.A16347@4dv.net>

As ideas go, it's really not all that bad.  1% is a bit steep, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd' - Ian Lamb, age 3.5

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:13:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:13:09 2002
Subject: [TML] whoops, heres the ship
Message-ID: <3CC800B8.19293.16BC72@localhost>

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--Message-Boundary-3736--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:16:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:16:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
Message-ID: <3CC80086.8268.15FA7B@localhost>

ok, heres something a little less subtle

its a conversion of the old FASA design, which replaces the 50 ton missile bay with 2 
triple salvo missile racks, which trade rate of fire for magazine capacity, but allow the 
chameleon to throw 60 missile salvoes. 

on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles in GT are 
stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? its never made any sense not 
to give them a backup homing capability, and or short range missiles for counter 
missile or anti fighter capabilities?





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:21:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:21:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
> plan
> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
> to "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"

Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want to help make
those dreams come true.

/Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 19/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:24:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:24:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Texas Redshift wrote:
>>From another list.  Not confirmed by me.

> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," 

Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You 
cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the 
First Amendment, with ample precedent.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:28:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:28:11 2002
Subject: [TML] whoops, heres the ship
In-Reply-To: <3CC800B8.19293.16BC72@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019758681.1367.ajackson@ping>

Aiii!  Think you can convinced your mailer not to base64 encode your html?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>

At 07:13 PM 4/25/02 +0100, Andy Brick wrote:
> > A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
> > plan
> > to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
> > Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> > proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> > space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> > Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
> > to "space,
> > space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
>Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want to help make
>those dreams come true.

Follow it with a 1% tax on art books, art supplies, and the sale of art 
(records, tapes, movie tickets, paintings, etc.) to fund federal art projects.

A 1% tax on school books and other educational material to go the Education 
Department.
etc.,etc., etc.

The 1% tax on porn would go straight to the Clinton Library and Slush Fund....

Ob-trav: Oh any number of a fun ways to part your players from their hard 
(or is that ill) earned credits.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <3CC80086.8268.15FA7B@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019759803.54.ajackson@ping>

shadowcat writes:

 
> on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles in GT
> are  stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? its never
> made any sense not  to give them a backup homing capability, and or short
> range missiles for counter  missile or anti fighter capabilities?

It's an artifact of the design system; sensors with useful combat range wind up
being extremely expensive.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:41:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:41:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net>

At 11:17 AM 4/25/02 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Texas Redshift wrote:
>> From another list.  Not confirmed by me.
>>Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
>>proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
>>space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
>>Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
>>space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
>Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You 
>cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the 
>First Amendment, with ample precedent.

Oh, like funking US Constitution 101 every kept anybody out of office...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020425.114504.-189505.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:56:49 +1200 "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> > Well, I hate to butt in here, but I'm a prime
> > example of the above conversation.
> >
> > I'm disabled as you all know, pulling in roughly
> > $17.5k via S.S. and my disability pension.
> 
> Just to show that "tolerable" is definitely relative:
> 
> However, outside of a few high cost areas lke New York city and
> the Silcon Valley environs, the cost of living in New Zealand is
> not appreciably lower than that in the US (at least according to
> my sister who has recently returned from  the US), so what (you
> seem to be implying) constitutes hardship for you, would be
> considered moderately well to do in New Zealand.
> 
> Of course, I'm sure someone from Russia could point out they
> could live like a king on 17.5K USD p.a.
> <grin>
> 
> Frankie

Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
To rent a 1 bedroom house here in Stockton it's $1,000 a month minimum,
to buy $125,000 minimum. For a resonably nice 2 bedroom place in a nice
area expect to start at $250,000. This is typical throughout all the
major cities in California.

Hardship, yes.

ObTrav...
What hardships are you forcing on your players?
The payment is due on your starship.
Your overdue on annual maintenance.
Your tab at the tavern is growing.
Creditors are knocking at your door.
How do you work your players to make a profit.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
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Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
Message-ID: <F89BOKvHurVEibVCrfX00004d49@hotmail.com>



>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>shadowcat writes:
>>on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles >>in 
>>GT are  stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? >>its 
>>never made any sense not  to give them a backup homing >>capability, and 
>>or short range missiles for counter  missile or anti >>fighter 
>>capabilities?
>
>It's an artifact of the design system; sensors with useful combat >range 
>wind up being extremely expensive.

I'm not a GT gearhead but the missile shouldn't have to have any significant 
range. Something like a 15'000'km sensor should be enough. The missile will 
know exactly where to look (target data over datalink) and will be much 
closer by the time an accurate position is needed.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 13:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 12:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <F89BOKvHurVEibVCrfX00004d49@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019761410.7031.ajackson@ping>

Patrik Holmstr=F6m writes:

> I'm not a GT gearhead but the missile shouldn't have to have any
> significant  range. Something like a 15'000'km sensor should be enough.
> The missile will  know exactly where to look (target data over datalink) =
and
> will be much  closer by the time an accurate position is needed.

The sensor rules in GURPS are heavily broken (as in, off by several orders =
of
magnitude).  A 10,000 mile sensor is not small.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 13:33:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Thu Apr 25 12:33:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <3CC80086.8268.15FA7B@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020425153645.00a49e30@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Shadowcat,


>on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles in GT 
>are
>stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? its never made 
>any sense not
>to give them a backup homing capability, and or short range missiles for 
>counter
>missile or anti fighter capabilities?

We created some long range bombing missiles that ran on inertial guidance, 
then went active when they hit their designated activation location.  The 
expected activation "hex" had to be planned for when a ship was within (if 
I recall correctly) 3 hexes of the activation hex.  What was done was to 
remove the warhead entirely - turning the missile into a kinetic kill 
weapon.  The primary purpose of this missile was to use it for long range 
attacks on enemy shipping.  It did require the use of GURPS VEHICLES 
missile guidance rules as opposed to the standard GURPS TRAVELLER 
rules.  The main reason for this missile's creation was to exploit the fact 
that transponders on civilian ships can be sensed out to rather *extreme* 
ranges.  The idea here was to create missiles that simulated what amounts 
to a "submarine" attack on civilian shipping.

                Hal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020329002354.00a2d920@pop.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20425.115724.3V9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Further on the Earth example, Earth is on the Suns 100d limit,


Sol's radius is 7e8 m. Or 700,000 km. So the diameter is 1.4e6 km. 

100 d would be 140e6 km. 1 AU is 150e6 km.

So it *is* pretty darn close. 

If you use the tidal force "rule" it's a *lot* smaller.

But there's no need to jump to the outer system. Unless your TU
requires jumps end at a gravity well.

Just plot your jump to clear the 100d limit of Sol and come out
"above", "below", "ahead" or "behind" Earth. Roughly 140e6 km away.
Call it 1 AU. Of course this is worst case. 

That's a long trip in normal space, but there's so much space that
ships could come out in that trying to intercept them would be a matter
of pure *luck*. And damned unlikely. 

If (as is true most of the time) Earth is closer to one "edge" of the
"shadow cone" of the sun, you'd jump for that area. Which concentrates
the ships some, but not a lot, as the difference in transit time caused
by being even a million km away from the "ideal" emergence point isn't
that great, but it *totally* hoses intercept attempts.

> so unless 
> your approach angle is from a planet that isn't blocked by the sun, you 
> have to jump to an outer system body and come in from there.

Nope. See above.

> Notably, this is seasonal, and so you might have a "pirate" season
> when the jump lanes shift.

Seasonal for a particular "route". 

> Also, I realised that there's nothing to stop the pirate from jamming the 
> victim. The J-point of the mainworld (Earth) is beyond sensor range, so the 
> pirate, if clever can avoid the patrol even knowing they had a raid.

Jamming is the exact *opposite* of stealth. Even if it's mostly
directional. It also doesn't prevent your victim from sending out a
signal, especially if it's going in a direction other then one your
have the jamming aimed.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:13:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:13:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <001601c1d6c5$0248a060$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20425.122531.2a1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Ok, lets say that there is a large habitat in the planetoid belt of the
> system (one of several such large stations), where the refined products from
> mining stations scattered throughout the belt in a 0.4 AU radius are brought
> by Cargo Cutters for transfer to a larger Jump Capable Transport for
> shipping to the Mainworld/Neighbouring systems etc.
>
> If you intercept one of the cutters you can probably arrange for the
> intercept point to be several millions of km from the nearest SDB. That
> should give you a few hours uninterrupted piracy...

Now try *doing* the intercept. 

If you are using limited delta-V rules, then it gets more than a little
difficult. Especially given that the pirate needs to save enough fuel
to make his post jump manuevers, and (in the leave behind two cutters)
enough for the second intercept and the post jump manuevers after that.

The ship being intercepted only needs to have enough fuel left to get
within range of a "tug" from it's destination.

And jumping into the attack with a high velocity can backfire. If you
come out on the wrong side of the target, youe velociity is in the
wrong direction, and you'd have been better off jumping in at rest.

And don't forget the uncertainty in emergence times. That can place you
*millions* of km out of position. After all that target ship is
*moving*. At the 200 km/sec figure someone else used, every *hour* you
are off in your emergence time means the target is 3/4s of a million km
away from the position you were planning on.

> Now if you counter this by having each little mining station serviced by
> Jump capable ships, which will need to be either J2 capable, or sacrifice
> cargo space for extra fuel (unless each little station has ample fuel
> available to refill the ships tanks), then my attack plan becomes one of
> raiding the little mining outposts and stealing mining equipment, computers,
> and anything else that can be plundered in a few hours (or maybe even days)
> before the nearest SDB can arrive... or does every little mining out post
> have a few SDB's permanently assigned to its defence? Remember, for every
> SDB on its active duty station there are 2 or 3 others in transit or
> undergoing maintenance.

If mining stations get raided regularly, they are apt to be armed. And
miners in asteroid belts will tend to have some pretty powerful lasers
for mining purposes anyway. And mass drivers for tossing low value
cargoes around the system. Nobody is going to bother hijacking a few
hundred tons of iron. But a mass driver that can toss that into an
orbit where it can be picked up by a processing plant or a planet can
toss a ton of "pebbles" at you like the shotgun from hell.

> After all, you can jump to within a thousand km of a 10km planetoid fire a
> few laser blasts at the rock surrounding the mining outpost, demand no
> resistance then send in your Hearty Swashbucklers in a cutter to plunder the
> outpost while covered by your main ships weaponry. Before any help can
> arrive you are long gone.

No, you *can't* make that jump. You can jump to that close to where it
will be IF YOU EMERGE AT THE CALCULATED TIME. 

If you emerge at a different time, you'll be *way* out of position.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:17:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:17:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <006c01c1d6d7$27f40220$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20425.124254.1N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Timothy Little writes:
>> > Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> > > The jump ship isn't that much more expensive, and the performance
>> > > difference is quite large (it's actually a week for 0.4 AU, not 0.8
>> > > AU).
>> >
>> > (Are you sure you aren't using m s^-2 instead of g's?)
>>
>> Yes.  However, I'm also using HEPlaR (as per the person I was responding
> to),
>> which means max delta-V is horrible.
>
> That was me...
>
> I've just looked up the interplanetary travel rules in TNE. Lets take a
> Cutter with 48 G-Turns of Manoeuvre fuel... that's 24 G-Hours. Obviously you
> will use not more than 1/2 of that to accelerate (assuming you intend to
> stop again...) and realistically you would rarely use more than 1/3, so as
> to leave a 1/3 of a tank for emergencies.
>
> So we will go with 8 G-Hours of acceleration. According to the table on
> p.227 of TNE that equates to 18 minutes per Lightsecond. So in 6 days
> coasting (allowing the remaining day for accelerating and decelerating) you
> can travel (6x24x60)/18 = 480Ls... which is 8 Lightminutes or pretty much
> 1AU for a typical operational range.
>
> The Maximum range would be after 12 G-Hours of burn, reaching 12 minutes per
> Ls, or  1.5 AU in 6 days
>
> In the Broadsword vs Cutter example I used earlier, both have 48 G-Turns of
> fuel as standard, but the Broadsword can dip into its Jump Fuel for extra
> manoeuvre fuel. (With its J3 capacity we can assume it can fairly safely dip
> into 1/3 of its jump fuel without hindering its ability to Jump out if
> things go bad, for an extra 15 G-Turns)
>
> At M-3 the Cutter can reach top speed in 4 hours, the Broadsword only has
> M-2 so would take 6 Hours to reach the same speed,  but it can burn for a
> maximum of 15.5 G-Hours using Jump fuel taking it to about 9 minutes per Ls
>
> Assuming the Cutter has already spent 8 G-Hours burning and is coasting when
> the Broadsword Jumps in at relative rest, just as the Cutter passes it.

That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.

> The
> cutter burns for another hour and 20 minutes to reach 12 G-Hours, the
> Broadsword burns for 7 hours 45 minutes to reach its 15.5 G-Hour burn limit.

> So the Cutter goes at 15min/ls for 80minutes then 12min/ls. The Broadsword
> averages 18min/ls for 465 minutes then it travels at 9min/ls until it
> overhauls the cutter. after both ships stop accelerating the cutter is about
> 11.6 Ls ahead of the Broadsword. It then take the broadsword a further 7
> hours or so to close to point blank range... call it 8 or so to allow the
> broadsword some deceleration to match velocities.
>
> So within 16 Hours of arrival the cutter has been caught. In this time the
> vessels have travelled about 70 Ls, or about 0.15 AU.

Except that you are assuming that the cutter is running away in a
straight line. 

It's smarter to make burns at right angles to his course. That makes
your intercept harder because you don't get to build your vector as
easily. Also, don't forget the effect of light speed lag in trying to
counter his manuevers. Until you get close, you'll lose time
accelewrating in the wrong direction after each acceleration change he
makes. 

And in an emergency like this, *he* can afford to burn his tanks dry,
because either an SDB can intercept and refuel him, or a ship can
intercept him as he zips past his desination.

*He* can afford to be floating thru space with empty tanks. *You*
can't. 

Oh yeah if the cutter *does* run "straight" away from you, and you
follow, he can damage you severely just by dumping trash out the
airlock. Work out what a 50 gram bolt will do at 288 km/sec (8
g-hours). It's equivalent to 460 kilos of TNT.

In space a straight out "stern chase" is *dangerous* for the pursuer.

> A standard SDB has 112 G-Turns of fuel, or 56 G-Hours, so at most it will
> use 26 G-Hours to accelerate. Assuming it was coasting after a 26 G-Hour
> Burn (about 6.5 hours with its 4G drive) and was pointing in exactly the
> right direction it can cover a light second in about 5.5 minutes. In 16
> hours it can travel 175ls, or ~0.37 AU. So if the SDB was perfectly position
> on a reciprocal course with the cutter and already at full speed it could be
> about 0.5AU from where the chase started and get there in time to intercept
> in other circumstances it is likely that the Pirate will have a few hours
> before an SDB arrives, and will have plenty of time to jump if an SDB
> approaches.

Yes, but jumping without having made an intercept is a net loss for the
pirate. 

And as long as an SDB can eventually make an intercept with enough feul
to get back to base with the cutter before the life support in the
cutter runs out, the cutter can burn *all* of its fuel in evading you. 

> All this assumes as well that the Cutter reacts to the Broadswords arrival
> instantly, and that the Broadsword has useful residual velocity, and that it
> didn't jump in a few Ls ahead of the Cutter to cut its lead, and the SDB is
> perfectly positioned to intercept.

And that you emerge from jump at the precise time you planned, rather
than hours earlier or later. 

And a whole bunch of other assumptions I dealt with above.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:20:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:20:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017422404.1406.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20425.130046.1P5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I suppose a situation like that could exist.  Pretty rare, though.  Also, 
> since
> you're transporting mining products (dense, low-value) you're not going to 
> use
> cutters, you're going to use bulk carriers, and stealing the cargo will be
> horribly pointless (ok, you have a load of processed ore, at Cr 5,000 per 
> dton.
> What are you going to do with it?)

Heck, with *that* sort of cargo you don't even use a ship. You just
hang some radar corners off a container (or fuse the stuff into a
reasonably solid block instead of "wasting" a container) and either use
a tug to boost it into a transfer orbit or use a mass driver to launch
it into the orbit. 

At the other end a tug graples it and drags it to the customer.

It ain't worth stealing, and it ain't worth wasting a ship on for the
whole trip. In fact, unless there's a rush, such stuff would be in low
velocity orbits that took months or years in transit. You don't *care*
how long a load takes to get there as long as loads arrive regularly.
Sort of like a pipeline.

Nobody bothers tapping a pipeline to steal oil. It ain't worth the
hassle. And so what if it takes weeks for the oil to move from one end
to the other? As long as there's a steady stream...

>> After all, you can jump to within a thousand km of a 10km planetoid fire a
>> few laser blasts at the rock surrounding the mining outpost, demand no
>> resistance then send in your Hearty Swashbucklers in a cutter to plunder
>> the outpost while covered by your main ships weaponry. Before any help can
>> arrive you are long gone.
>
> And the people in the mining outpost move into their mining tunnels
> behind 500 meters of rock and laugh at you.

And he won't know *where* the tunnels are. So all he can do is blast
the places where they reach the surface. The miners can dig out later.
*They* have mining equipment. He doesn't.

And just picture the results of sending troops into a tunnel if the
miners start a tunneling machine from the other end. 

The troops can damage the cutting heads pretty badly before it crushes
them. Or they can use weapons that are apt to kill them at the same
time they stop the machine.

And if instead of mechanical cutting heads it uses lasers or particle
beams things get *really* interesting. <eg>


Hard rock mining gear is *tough*. It has to be. Gear for cutting into
nickel iron asteroids will be even tougher.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEHCDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <DAV14JGwTVfKB0vJXpV00005a42@hotmail.com>

> The new diet craze! Put on a black hole lapel pin and everyone will think
> you're eating when you aren't getting a single bite!
>

Or place a black hole in your modem.  Everyone will think you're receiving
data when you aren't getting a single byte.

Be assured, I am appropriately ashamed.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <20020425120658.A16347@4dv.net>
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>; from texasredshift@hotmail.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:42:03PM -0500
Message-ID: <3CC91708.13447.1F83B4@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:06, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> As ideas go, it's really not all that bad.  1% is a bit steep, though.

But it should be applied to all everything. Who really thinks SF fans 
are the only beneficiaries of NASA's work?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:03:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:03:12 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <200204251751.g3PHpXP22829@premier1.premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CC91708.29789.1F8305@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:48, wombat@premier.net wrote:

> Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my
> designs for _Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).
>  Note that all three of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry
> NPAW spinal mounts; I've never been a big fan of meson guns. 
> Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of meson
> guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that ecological
> niche. 

I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not 
rea;;y a fan of them either, and seldom use them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net>
References: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 14:35, Mark Urbin wrote:

> >Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You 
> >cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the 
> >First Amendment, with ample precedent.
> 
> Oh, like funking US Constitution 101 every kept anybody out of office...

Seems to me (on a quick read-through) that if actually knowing and up 
holding your constitution was a requirement for election you'd have a 
hell of a lot fewer politicians and also a great many fewer laws.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:11:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:11:37 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425.114504.-189505.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CC91946.27653.28495E@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> To rent a 1 bedroom house here in Stockton it's $1,000 a month minimum,
> to buy $125,000 minimum. For a resonably nice 2 bedroom place in a nice
> area expect to start at $250,000. This is typical throughout all the
> major cities in California.

Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three bedroom place in an 
okay area of Wellington. In my home town of Palmerston North you'd 
probably get a 4-bedroom place.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net>
 <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425171543.00b89ec0@urbin.net>

At 09:02 AM 4/26/02 +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 25 Apr 2002 at 14:35, Mark Urbin wrote:
> > >Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You
> > >cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the
> > >First Amendment, with ample precedent.
> > Oh, like funking US Constitution 101 every kept anybody out of office...
>Seems to me (on a quick read-through) that if actually knowing and up
>holding your constitution was a requirement for election you'd have a
>hell of a lot fewer politicians and also a great many fewer laws.

Oh ya...We would probably have just one member out of our current gaggle of 
congresscritters.

...and he'd be from Texas...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8ee241a5d06@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:42 PM -0500 4/25/02, Texas Redshift wrote:
>  >From another list.  Not confirmed by me.
>
>< Begin quote >
>A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a plan
>to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
>Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
>proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
>space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
>Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
>space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," Williams said in
>a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, Ala.,
>resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science from
>the
>University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in business
>management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super Market at
>Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
>< End quote >
>
>Opinions?


How much of the budget would a 1% tax cover?
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:28:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:28:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>
References: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8ee2476727f@[143.232.119.186]>

At 2:35 PM -0400 4/25/02, Mark Urbin wrote:
>Follow it with a 1% tax on art books, art supplies, and the sale of 
>art (records, tapes, movie tickets, paintings, etc.) to fund federal 
>art projects.

I'm not sure these sort of things are such a bad idea.  It would tie 
the projects in better with their constituencies.  For example, the 
SF tax would give NASA funding from a source that puts a priority on 
its activities and give those who are interested in space research 
more results.  (And people are more tolerant of taxes that go to 
specific things they support).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com> <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020426080850.A14241@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, it's the method ised by floppy *and* hard disk controllers
> for just about everything. GCR and all the rest of that was only used
> by Apple and Commodore.

Yes, and wasn't even used in the Commodore Amiga.  It *could* read and
write GCR, but at single density.  (The GCR encoding method looks
better on paper, 4 bits out of 5, but is inherently lower-density for
a given magnetic coercivity of medium.)


> No, at the *hardware* level, it's still sectors and tracks.

Not even that: at the *hardware* level, it's a sequence of magnetic
polarity changes.  Software (or firmware) groups them into sectors and
tracks.  The Amiga didn't have a firmware sector decoder; it read
tracks in as '0' for no polarity change at the appropriate time, and
'1' if there was.  The MFM decoding, sector recognition, and error
checking was done in software -- by the CPU normally, but I wrote a
driver that used the "Agnes" GPU instead.


> *If* Commodore had used FM and MFM encoding on the disks, rather than
> GCR (basicly a different way of modulating the signal that represents
> the bitstream on the media), then all it'd take to read a C-64 disk on
> a PC would be some fancy software. 

As it is, most modern FDD controllers have MFM decoding and sector
recognition in firmware or hardware, so you can't do GCR reading
without changing chips.  However: there are software tricks by which
you can read *most* low-density GCR in an MFM drive (as in recover 90%
or so of the bits) so long as the drive hardware isn't too "smart" and
refuses to read what it thinks is a damaged sector.  Lower-density GCR
comes out with a predictable pattern of bits after MFM 'decoding'.
The only problem is loss of synchronization in low-quality drives.

I believe the Mac uses variable-speed drive hardware as well as GCR,
so this trick won't work with Mac disks.  (At least, they did 10 years
ago when I last played around with these things!)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:14:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:14:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <20020425.180812.-297303.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:42:03 -0500 "Texas Redshift"
<texasredshift@hotmail.com> writes:
> From another list.  Not confirmed by me.

Here's the actual link: 
http://www.al.com/news/huntsvilletimes/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_stan
dard.xsl?/base/news/101949940424601171.xml
 
> < Begin quote >
> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has 
> proposed a plan
> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times 
> reported.
> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District 
> seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and 
> Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to 
> "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," Williams 
> said in
> a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, 
> Ala.,
> resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science 
> from
> the
> University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in 
> business
> management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super 
> Market at
> Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
> < End quote >


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] second verse same as the first Chameleon
Message-ID: <3CC83AF3.17728.908D6@localhost>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F251utSgcOrBLSAQV6u0000a9dd@hotmail.com>
References: <F251utSgcOrBLSAQV6u0000a9dd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020426083935.A14400@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking about a 
> X-ray laser to it needs to be at least TL13.

That doesn't necessarily follow.  TL13 is where controlled and
contained Xray weapon lasers appear, is it not?  I would expect
detonation lasers to appear *much* earlier; TL8 or 9.


> Here is where we run out of information. How many lasing rods are
> there in a NukeDet?

I don't know.  However, the listed figures are probably the most that
can be directed at a single target (regardless of actual number of
rods).  If you have targets scattered around the nuke, it can almost
certainly generate more beams with the same warhead.


> Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow
> up) or something more powerful (that does)?

The latter, I would expect.  A cartridge that doesn't blow up is
over-engineered for this task.


>Can a lasing rod (as used in NukeDets) also be used with chemicals?

Almost certainly nuclear detonation lasers are nothing like chemical
ones.  They would be based on gamma/hard Xray radiation input to begin
with, and chemical reactions never generate such radiation.


> What is the cost/weight/volume of the lasing rod and tracking
> telescope?

TL dependent, certainly.  


> Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a lot. 
> TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing 
> Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical Lasing 
> Cartridge? Double this?

Theoretically possible, yes.  Practically?  I don't know.  The mass of
a cartridge is more than just the mass of chemical compounds contained
within it, and converting chemical energy to laser energy is usually
far from 100% efficient.  2 MJ/kg is very good, as far as I can see.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:02:38AM +1200
References: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net> <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020425164405.A20114@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:02:38AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Seems to me (on a quick read-through) that if actually knowing and up 
> holding your constitution was a requirement for election you'd have a 
> hell of a lot fewer politicians and also a great many fewer laws.

That's not escaped a lot of folks.  Including, I fear, our
politicians.  Unfortunately, a politician's job is not to uphold the
rules but to keep the mob happy.

I've often felt that it would be a good idea to declare that any
legislator voting for an unconstitutional law may no longer hold any
office.  It'd make the courts too powerful, though.  Sigh.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only kind of freedom that the mob can imagine is freedom to annoy
and oppress its betters, and that is precisely the kind that we mainly
have.                                                   --H.L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Judder-drive?
In-Reply-To: <DAV22gADGFXpWvFmaWn0000574a@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV22gADGFXpWvFmaWn0000574a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020426084822.B14400@freeman.little-possums.net>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> The crucial thing, says Millis, is whether Goodwin's magnet would
> produce any net motion at all - it might just sit there and
> vibrate.

The jolt from switching a powerful electromagnet on or off certainly
isn't anything new in physics.  The exact magnitude is extremely
difficult to calculate in practice, but the physics behind it is just
well-known classical electromagnetism.

There is of course the *possibility* that new physics applies, and so
it might be worth looking at.  However, since known physics already
predicts such a jolt I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a
reactionless drive to arise from this research.

In fact, various plasma drives under test already use a more refined
version of this magnetic back-reaction; but of course they use
reaction mass.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com> <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <20020426080850.A14241@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CC8894B.2060409@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> I believe the Mac uses variable-speed drive hardware as well as GCR,
> so this trick won't work with Mac disks.  (At least, they did 10 years
> ago when I last played around with these things!)

Only for the old, no-longer supported 400 and 800K single density and 
double density disks.

Moreover, the drivers for those 400K (and the 800 K , I think) disks 
represent the Woz's contribution to the Mac...these were actually a 
superior method of encoding than what was on PC's...you can store more 
(400 vs 360k, 800 vs 720) and it's a wee bit more reliable, since all 
the sectors are the same physical size, whereas the physical size (and 
packing of your magnetic bits) of a sector on a PC disk changes from the 
center out.

The Woz originally did this because Shugart wouldn't release specs on 
their floppy disk drives, iirc, so he hacked his own design for the 
original Apple II drives, and came up with this method.

(It's also not dumb, nor all that new, it is, essentially, the same 
mechanism a record player uses, and is used in the CD-red and blue book 
definitions)


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019696542.4978.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260840130.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Anthony:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Sure, congress is theoretically able to reinstate the draft.  They're just
> vanishingly unlikely to want to.

 The latrine-O-gram I heard was that it is just a vote of congress to
restablish the draft. An AYE/NAY vote. I can be very wrong on this point.

 Anyway FWIW I gave up a sole surviving son deferment to enlist. Thought
at the time it was the right thing to do. <1968>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260840130.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019777316.9882.ajackson@ping>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link writes:
> Hoi Anthony:
> 
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> > Sure, congress is theoretically able to reinstate the draft.  They're
> > just vanishingly unlikely to want to.
> 
>  The latrine-O-gram I heard was that it is just a vote of congress to
> restablish the draft. An AYE/NAY vote. I can be very wrong on this point.

Well, it would probably have to be a bill, like any other, requiring both
houses and a presidential signature.  There's lots of pretty extreme things
congress has the power to do, but that doesn't mean they'll actually do any of
those things.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260858570.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Mikko:

On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> Well, I wouldn't want to be in the field with smokers. It has no good
> points, and many bad.

 It was real nice of the rural VS boys after raiding a supply area to
spend the night lighting up the cigs. The red embers weren't fire flies.
I never heard what the rules by the Lao Dong party of the NVA put down if
anything about the VS and the NVA on smoking. I know that some did and
others didn't. FWIW you can tell the diffeence of cig tobacco by the
smell. Camels are the worse.

> Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even farther with image
> intensifiers. Also, you might want not to leave much stuff around, which
> is quite hard if you have to remember collecting everything you smoke.

 Policing the area is a problem for cig smokers. The cigar smokers I knew
would save the stub. Don'T remember the correct word. I smoked a pipe and
all I needed to do was spead and cover the ash.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:41:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:41:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
References: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC892D7.39DE6B02@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

>      Nice touch!  A steward with odd culinary ideas sounds great.  Have the
> PCs loathe the meals she prepares BUT she also lures lots of high passengers
> aboard with the same.  The PCs Beowulf could get a rep for catering to a
> certain type of traveller; they pay well and are just annoying enough to
> make the PCs batty.
>
>      "Hadn't really thought of the ingredient angle.  Thanks Larsen."
>
>      Your very welcome.  Have your PCs set aside a low berth for the Vargr
> steward's "supplies"?  Or rigged up a similar device in the hold or
> engineering?  How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy
> stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other supplies
> and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require PRECISE
> enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the constant risk
> of possible allergens from all those plants wafting their way through the
> ventilation system...

Sweet! Once again thanks. Hee, hee, hee those poor PC's

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #445 - 17 msgs
Message-ID: <34.2697c722.29f9ee48@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/25/2002 5:27:56 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:

For the benefit of those of us who get the digest version, could you please 
put the text in the body of the message instead of attaching it?

All I see is several pages of the following"

>--Message-Boundary-8302
>Content-type: Text/HTML; name="TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class Commerce 
Raider.htm"
>Content-disposition: attachment; filename="TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class 
Commerce Raider.htm"
>Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64
>
>PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcmFuc2l0aW9u
>YWwvL0VOIj4NCjxodG1sIGxhbmc9ImVuIj4NCjxoZWFkPjx0aXRsZT5OZXcgU2hpcCBOYW1l
>PC90aXRsZT48L2hlYWQ+DQo8Ym9keT4NCjxQPjxiPjxjZW50ZXI+PGZvbnQgc2l6ZT0iKzEi
>PjgwMC10b24gPGk+Q2hhbWVsZW9uPC9pPi1jbGFzcyBDb21tZXJjZSBSYWlkZXIsIE5ldyBT
>aGlwIE5hbWUgKFRMMTIpPC9mb250PjwvY2VudGVyPjwvYj48L1A+DQpMaWdodCBDb21tZXJj
>ZSBSYWlkZXIsIE5hc3R5IGZvciBpdHMgc2l6ZQ0KDQo8UD48Qj5DcmV3PC9CPjogMjkgYW5k
>IDEwLTE2IFRyb29wcw0KPC9QPg0KPFA+PEI+SHVsbDwvQj46ICA4MDAtdG9uIFZHU0wsIG5v
>biBMaWZ0aW5nIEJvZHksIE1lZGl1bSBGcmFtZSwgU3RhbmRhcmQgTWF0ZXJpYWxzLCBCb25k
>ZWQgU3VwZXJkZW5zZSAoRXhwZW5zaXZlKSBBcm1vcmVkIEh1bGwgKERSIDQwMDAsIFRoZXJt
>YWwgU3VwZXItY29uZHVjdGluZyBBcm1vciwgUHNpLVNoaWVsZGVkKSwgU3RhbmRhcmQgQ29t
>cGFydG1lbnRhbGl6YXRpb24sIEJhc2ljIFN0ZWFsdGggKC04LCBBTW9kIDIpLCBSYWRpY2Fs
>IEVtaXNzaW9uIENsb2FraW5nICgtMTYsIFBNb2QgLTYgWy04LCBQTW9kIDIgaW4gc3BhY2Vd
>KS48L1A+DQo8UD48Qj5Db250cm9sIEFyZWFzPC9CPjogIENvbW1hbmQgQnJpZGdlIChDb21w
>bGV4aXR5IDEwKSwgIEVuaCBTZW5zb3JzLCAgQ29tcHV0ZXIgQmFuayAoOHhNYWNyb2ZyYW1l
>LCBIaUNhcCwgSGFyZGVuZWQsIENvbXBsZXhpdHkgMTApLCAgRVcgKEhhcmRlbmVkLCBDb21w
>bGV4aXR5IDEwKS48L1A+DQo8VEFCTEUgV0lEVEg9IjkwJSI+DQo8VFI+DQo8VEggQUxJR049
>IkxFRlQiPjxVPkNvbW11bmljYXRvciBSYW5nZSAobWkpPC9VPjwvVEQ+DQo8VEggQUxJR049


Thanks

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020425.170405.-125887.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> 
> Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three bedroom place in 
> an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of Palmerston North you'd 
> probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> 
> -- 

Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security, and my disability
pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260939420.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:

 So would this tax be followed up with a 1% tax on Fantasy RPGs movies and
literature to help finance the Department of Defense <LOL>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425.170405.-125887.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CC94593.29071.D5590E@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 17:04, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security, and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.

Now that's the trick, isn't it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <200204260023.EZT00242@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link says
> So would this tax be followed up with a 1% tax on Fantasy 
>RPGs movies and literature to help finance the Department of 
>Defense <LOL>
>

Now let's think about that for a minute. A lot of us have 
already made our contribution bodily to various Departments 
of Defense (or War, as the case may be).  

Then there's old gaming codgers like Dunnigan, who are now 
central figures in mainstream DoD circles.  

I think that there should be a "lack of imagination" tax.  If 
you spend more on movies, television, and pop music than you 
do on science fiction books and role playing games, then you 
should be required to pay a 25% tax on movies, television, 
and pop music, the proceeds of which should be paid to the 
people who bring you science fiction books and role playing 
games.


We can certainly think up a complicated formula for payment, 
based on the popularity of your work over the years.
________________
There's a man who leads a life of danger
To everyone he meets he stays a stranger
With every move he makes another chance he takes 
Odds are he won't live to see tomorrow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 25 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
References: <20020425222704.BE24927AE3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC8A8A1.B8979294@earthlink.net>

Rupert Boleyn posted:
> 
> On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:48, wombat@premier.net wrote:
> 
> > Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my
> > designs for _Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).
> >  Note that all three of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry
> > NPAW spinal mounts; I've never been a big fan of meson guns.
> > Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of meson
> > guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that ecological
> > niche.
> 
> I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
> really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.

First of all, thank you to all of those who replied. Patrik, I'm
going to mine your site this evening for ideas! Your "Recurrent
Glory"-class is positively stunning.

As for meson guns..yeah, I never liked 'em. Never, that is, until
I saw Patrik's website. How about a 406 Gj Meson Spinal mount that
can punch through a cruiser's meson screen (and armor) at Long
distance?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 19:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 18:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <18819783.11D89EB1.02280B06@aol.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:
> I think that there should be a "lack of imagination" tax.

It's conversations like this that remind me that Ayn
Rand, cracked as she was, actually had a few useful
insights.

The real reason libertarianism never gets anywhere is
because *everyone* has some tax or rule that they would
like to see imposed by force on their fellow men. We
all have some behavior of which we disapprove, so we
reach for the levers of government in order to outlaw
that behavior for everyone. In short, we have met the
second-handers, and they are us.

(Yes, John, I know you weren't being terribly serious.
You just reminded me of a long-standing pet peeve.)

---
Jon



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
In-Reply-To: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>
References: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020426125234.A14613@freeman.little-possums.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy
> stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other
> supplies and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require
> PRECISE enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the
> constant risk of possible allergens from all those plants wafting
> their way through the ventilation system...

Oy!  Stop giving my GM nasty ideas!

My character already has a single-occupancy stateroom with dozens of
exotic plants, special lighting conditions, some with individual
atmospheres, and the cabin *does* have tuned gravity.  Our current
situation has some type of lifeform running around the ship, regarding
which one character has already had suspicions about where it might
have come from.  We don't need allergens as well!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
References: <18819783.11D89EB1.02280B06@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006101c1ecd1$c51ce610$9307b286@Shane>

> The real reason libertarianism never gets anywhere is
> because *everyone* has some tax or rule that they would
> like to see imposed by force on their fellow men.

We do?  Damn, I'd better come up with one quickly or I'll be a *no-one*.
Oh wait.. I already am. :)
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Member of the general public since 1976
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
References: <20425.124254.1N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <001401c1ecd2$fada91c0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>

<snip>

> Matt Bond wrote:
> > Assuming the Cutter has already spent 8 G-Hours burning and is coasting
when
> > the Broadsword Jumps in at relative rest, just as the Cutter passes it.
>
> That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
> emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.

And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that IMTU
while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
calculable duration.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:39:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:39:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
References: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com> <20020426125234.A14613@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <006901c1ecd2$f537b2c0$9307b286@Shane>

Tim wrote:
> My character already has a single-occupancy stateroom with dozens of
> exotic plants, special lighting conditions, some with individual
> atmospheres, and the cabin *does* have tuned gravity.  Our current
> situation has some type of lifeform running around the ship, regarding
> which one character has already had suspicions about where it might
> have come from.  We don't need allergens as well!

"What am I, a biologist now?  How was I meant to know the captain was
allergic to cyanide gas?"
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Trying to plead his case from the wrong side of the
airlock hatch
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:53:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:53:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <17d.7662cf6.29fa26e8@aol.com>

"Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> writes:

>We, the viewers, keep seeing special and unusual cases.
>For example, _USS Enterprise_ (from the old series) was one
>of only twelve Constitution-class cruisers, and such ships
>were the most prestigious ships in Galaxy Exploration Command,
>which was the most prestigious division of Starfleet.  The
>crews of these special ships were officers from Captain
>down to bottle-washer.

Heh. I'm of the opinion that in Star Fleet, Ensigns are a mis-translation of 
the old Terran naval tradition, since in ST they seem to be what you "run up 
the flagpole to see who shoots back"...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 22:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 21:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <20020425.213237.-125945.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 23:43:36 EDT GypsyComet@aol.com writes:
> "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> writes:
> 
> >We, the viewers, keep seeing special and unusual cases.
> >For example, _USS Enterprise_ (from the old series) was one
> >of only twelve Constitution-class cruisers, and such ships
> >were the most prestigious ships in Galaxy Exploration Command,
> >which was the most prestigious division of Starfleet.  The
> >crews of these special ships were officers from Captain
> >down to bottle-washer.
> 
> Heh. I'm of the opinion that in Star Fleet, Ensigns are a 
> mis-translation of 
> the old Terran naval tradition, since in ST they seem to be what you 
> "run up  the flagpole to see who shoots back"...
> 
> GC

There were plenty of enlisted personnel in all of the ST series, but they
were the extras, and the ones who were killed off in battles. And don't
forget the most famous enlisted man Chief O'brian.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 22:49:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 21:49:06 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <F182WZbQLbzjADMBLxt00008700@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020425223624.044bbc10@rollanet.org>

At 08:56 AM 4/25/02, you wrote:
>John Groth <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
>
>This may not be accurate, as I'm drawing on secondary sources
>(FASA's Star Trek RPG) for this...
>
>
>As I said, this is material from a secondary source, so it
>may be inaccurate.  It may even be a whole-cloth creation
>of the game designers, rather than a report of the actual
>organization of Gene Rodenberry's Starfleet.
>
>Walt Smith
>Firelock on DALNet

 From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry 
(copyright 1968)

     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 22:55:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Thu Apr 25 21:55:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020425.213237.-125945.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020425.213237.-125945.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <200204260054080915.01D811E7@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

Traveller's Aide #1 for T20 and Classic Traveller is now available, along=
 with subscriptions.
http://www.TravellerRPG.com


Hunter




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 23:08:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr 25 22:08:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: shadowcat's ships (was TML digest, Vol 2002 #445 - 17 msgs)
In-Reply-To: <34.2697c722.29f9ee48@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIEDMAA.tml@downport.com>

To facilitate your enjoyment of shadowcat's ship conversions, the Aslan
Ambassador has kindly allowed him to park them in his pocket empire:

http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
>
> For the benefit of those of us who get the digest version, could
> you please
> put the text in the body of the message instead of attaching it?


Unfortunately, placing them in the body wraps them in all of the wrong
places. All 72 (so far) of his recent conversions are there in HTML and
'GURPS Traveller Ships' (.gtv) versions.

For those who have been following, this is the direct link to his
most-recent offering
http://www.pocketempires.com/fafrhd/TL12_800-ton_Chameleon-class_Commerce_Ra
ider.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 01:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Fri Apr 26 00:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC96FDE.27660.37E569C@localhost>

I think the most interesting aspect of this proposed tax is that it 
necessitates a definition of what exactly "science fiction" is.  Is 
/Gravity's Rainbow/ SF?  Is /Flowers for Algernon/?  What about 
Michael Crichton's stuff?  And maybe some drek would be 
exempted as being science fantasy -- the Star Wars franchise, 
/ID4/, etc.

<facetious>
Good, no more petty squabbling among people who actually read 
the stuff, now we're going to get a nice, clear government definition!
</facetious>

-- Rachel

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 02:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 26 01:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote :

> Well, I wouldn't want to be in the field with smokers.
> It has no good points, and many bad.

Oh, I don't know. If I was "in the field" I would be more
concerned about my personal survival than the rest of the unit,
and if the others were smokers that makes them bigger targets
than I, presumably increasing my chances of survival!
<grin>

> Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even
> farther with image intensifiers. Also, you might
> want not to leave much  stuff around, which
> is quite hard if you have to remember collecting
> everything you smoke.

I always remember the surprise I got when it was demonstratd to
me that a person taking even a clandestine puff on a
hand-shielded cigarette can be seen from over 2kms with the naked
eye in the dark. The flare of a lit match is even more visible.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:10:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:10:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017438121.4165.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20425.131430.3i5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> And the output of the mining won't be, for example, lanthanun ore, it will
>> be lanthanum... the availability of cheap fusion power makes refining the
>> ore at site then shipping the refined product cost effective compared to
>> shipping ore to a larger refinery elsewhere.
>
> Sort of true.  However, there's no real reason to have multiple small
> mines in a system; just use one big mining ship, reduce asteroids to
> rubble one at a time, and move on.

Actually, this is a flaw in the background. With cheap fusion power,
and especially if the fusion is based on continuous fusion in a plasma
(confined magnetically or by a combo of magnetic and gravitic forces)
you shovel rock in one end and get isotopically pure elements out the
other. The stuff you don't have much need for (like silicon and
aluminum, which "rock" has *way* too much of) you just combinine with
the (way too much) oxygen to form convenient lumps of quartz and
sapphire. 

You'll wind up with megatons of "common" elements, and tons of rare
ones... 

Assuming abundances similar to the Earth's crust, from 10 million tons
of rock (a cube about 1.5 km on a side), you'll get:

        mg/kg			yeild
        -------		----------------------
O	4.61e5		4.6e9	 4,600 kilotons
Si	2.82e5		2.82e9	 2,820 kilotons
Al	8.23e4		8.23e8	   823 kilotons
Fe	5.63e4		5.63e8	   563 kilotons
Ca	4.15e4		4.15e8	   415 kilotons
Na	2.36e4		2.36e8	   236 kilotons
Mg	2.33e4		2.33e8     233 kilotons
K	2.09e4		2.09e8	   209 kilotons
Ti	5.65e3		5.56e7	55,600 tons
H	1.4e3		1.4e7	14,000 tons
P	1.05e3		1.05e7	10,500 tons
Mn	9.50e2		9.50e6	 9,500 tons
F	5.85e2		5.85e6	 5,850 tons
Ba	4.25e2		4.25e6	 4,250 tons
Sr	3.70e2		3.70e6	 3,700 tons
S	3.5e2		3.5e6	 3,500 tons
C	2.00e2		2.00e6	 2,000 tons
Zr	1.65e2		1.65e6	 1,650 tons
Cl	1.45e2		1.45e6	 1,450 tons
V	1.20e2		1.20e6	 1,200 tons
Cr	1.02e2		1.02e6	 1,020 tons
Rb	9.0e1		9.0e5	   900 tons
Ni	8.4e1		8.4e5	   840 tons
Zn	7.0e1		7.0e5	   700 tons
Ce	6.65e1		6.65e5	   665 tons
Cu	6.0e1		6.0e5	   600 tons
Nd	4.15e1		4.15e5	   415 tons
La	3.9e1		3.9e5	   390 tons
Y	3.3e1		3.3e5	   330 tons
Co	2.5e1		2.5e5	   250 tons
Sc	2.2e1		2.2e5	   220 tons
Li	2.0e1		2.0e5	   200 tons
Nb	2.0e1		2.0e5	   200 tons
Ga	1.9e1		1.9e5	   190 tons
N	1.9e1		1.9e5	   190 tons
Pb	1.4e1		1.4e5	   140 tons
B	1e1		1e5	   100 tons
Th	9.6		9.6e4   96,000 kilos
Pr	9.2		9.2e4	92,000 kilos
Sm	7.05		7.05e4	70,500 kilos
Gd	6.2		6.2e4   62,000 kilos
Dy	5.2		5.2e4   52,000 kilos
Ar	3.5		3.5e4   35,000 kilos
Er	3.5		3.5e4   35,000 kilos
Yb	3.2		3.2e4   32,000 kilos
Hf	3.0		3.0e4   30,000 kilos
Cs	3		3e4     30,000 kilos
Be	2.8		2.8e4   28,000 kilos
U	2.7		2.7e4   27,000 kilos
Br	2.4		2.4e4   24,000 kilos
Sn	2.3		2.3e4   23,000 kilos
Eu	2.0		2.0e4   20,000 kilos
Ta	2.0		2.0e4   20,000 kilos
As	1.8		1.8e4   18,000 kilos
Ge	1.5		1.5e4   15,000 kilos
Ho	1.3		1.3e4   13,000 kilos
W	1.25		1.25e4  12,500 kilos
Mo	1.2		1.2e4   12,000 kilos
Tb	1.2		1.2e4   12,000 kilos
Tl	8.5e-1		8.5e3	 8,000 kilos
Lu	8e-1		8e3      8,000 kilos
Tm	5.2e-1		5.2e3    5,200 kilos
I	4.5e-1		4.5e3	 4,500 kilos
In	2.5e-1		2.5e3	 2,500 kilos
Sb	2e-1		2e3	 2,000 kilos
Cd	1.5e-1		1.5e3	 1,500 kilos
Hg	8.5e-2		8.5e2	   850 kilos
Ag	7.5e-2		7.5e2	   750 kilos
Se	5e-2		5e2	   500 kilos
Pd	1.5e-2		1.5e2	   150 kilos
Bi	8.5e-3		8.5e1	    85 kilos
He	8e-3		8e1	    80 kilos
Ne	5e-3		5e1         50 kilos
Pt	5e-3		5e1         50 kilos
Os	1.5e-3		1.5e1	    15 kilos
Ir	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Rh	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Ru	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Te	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Re	7e-4		7	     7 kilos
Xe	3e-5		3e-1	   300 grams
Pa	1.4e-6		1.4e-2	    14 grams
Ra	9e-7		9e-3	     9 grams
Ac	5.5e-10		5.5e-6	 5,500 micrograms
Po	2e-10		2e-6	 2,000 micrograms
Rn	4e-13		4e-9	     4 micrograms

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote Clan Trader
Message-ID: <3CC92AA7.7B2468DE@mindspring.com>

Grote Clan Trader
Most clans make their living by operating free traders or the 300 dT
Grote Clan trader. These clan vessels serve along carefully
planned and investigated trade loops that service dozens of smaller
worlds. A Grote trader showing up twice a year may be the
only "scheduled" trader some worlds see. Clan members may have been
anywhere between the Far Frontiers, Vland, and the
Trans-Rift jump 5 route.

 Craft ID:         Grote Clan Trader, TL 11, 147.229 Mcr, Quantity
discount 132.506 MCr

 Hull:         270/675, Disp=300, Config=Cone 2Sl, Armour=Crystaliron
40E, Loaded=4521.07, Unloaded=3253.106

 Power:          Primary 8/16, Fusion=726 Mw, Duration=30days
                      Secondary 12/24, Fusion=1062 Mw, Duration=3days,
Scoops, Purifiers 24 Hours
                     ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=34 days

 Loco:          8/16 Jump=2, 5/10 Maneuver=1G, Agility=1, NOE=150 Kph

 Comm:         Radio=System x 1, Laser =System x 1

 Sensors:       A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1
                     Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=-  POP=-  PES=R
PEP=-

 Off:         3 Hardpoints, 3 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  Triple Laser-7        x 1 in 1 battery

                                      Triple Sand-10      x 1 in 1
battery
                                      Triple Missile-7     x 1 in 1
Battery
                        Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Missile   2    -     -
                                          1
                             Laser     3    -    -
                                           1
                             Sand      4    -    -
                                           1

 Def:            Def DM= 4

 Control:     Computer=Model 3fib x 3, Panels=Dynamic Linked x 369, HUD
x 5

 Accom:     Officer=1 Crew=7 ( Bridge=2 Engineering=2 Gunners=2
Command=1 Stewards=1 Frozen=8 ) Passengers:
                 High=10  Staterooms=10 Small Staterooms=8, Low
Berths=8, Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
                  inertial comp, Airlocks x 2

 Subcraft:  Air/Raft x1(4 dton, TL 11)

 Other:      Cargo=1376.7 Kl/102 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=907 Kl/67
tons, ObjSize=Average, Ram time= 1.1hours


Author: Alan Spik
Adapted from
Ship: Clan Menzies
Class: Grote Clan Trader
Type: Merchant
Architect: William R. Cameron

USP
         MP-32212B1-040000-30002-0 MCr 162.134 300 Tons
Bat Bear             1     1   1   Crew: 8
Bat                     1     1   1   TL: 11

Cargo: 100.000 Passengers: 10 Frozen Watch Fuel: 66.000 EP: 6.000
Agility: 1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 1.621   Cost in Quantity: MCr 129.707

Note:

     Price increased slightly.
     Computer model increased to 3/fib as 2/fib has not enough control
points. I put five HUD onboard one each for gunners,
     Bridge crew and the commander.
     Passenger get normal Staterooms, Crew have individual small
Staterooms
     Power increased to 7.2 EP to cover weapons and agility. Plant split
into a primary and secondary for 30 days normal
     operation, agility 0, and a 3day combat/agility boost
     Added Air/Raft

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:45:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:45:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote Outrim Jade Patrol craft
Message-ID: <3CC92C3E.F65CA749@mindspring.com>

Grote Outrim Jade Class Escort Patrol
    The Outrim Jade class is Grotes answer to the Escort vessel for the
Merchant Fleet. In addition to escorting the legendary
Grotian Black Ships, they can be found patrolling merchant routes or
hunting the occasional transgressor against the sanctity of
the traders.
 Craft ID:    Grote Outrim Jade class patrol vessel, TL 13, 613.028 Mcr,
Quantity discount 551.725 MCr

 Hull:       540/1350, Disp=600, Config=Dome/Disc 6Sl,
Armour=Crystaliron 52E, Loaded=11836.149,
              Unloaded=11377.19

Power:       Primary 29/58, Fusion=3,978 Mw, Duration=30 days, Scoops,
Purifiers 24 Hours
                 Secondary 51/102, Fusion=6,840, Duration=3 days
                 ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=103 days

 Loco:          22/44, Jump=2, 43/86, Maneuver=3G, Agility=0/3

 Comm:          Radio=System x1, Laser=System x 1

 Sensors:          A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1, Hi-pen
Densinometer(1m) x 1, Neutrino(1Gw) x 1
                       Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=F  POP=F
PES=R  PEP=F

 Off:         6 Hardpoints, 6 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  Triple BLaser-7     x 2 in 2 battery
                                      Triple Sand-10      x 2 in 2
battery
                                      Triple Missile-7     x 2 in 2
Battery
                        Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Missile   3    -     -
                                          2
                             Laser     4    -    -
                                          2
                             Sand      4    -    -
                                          2

 Def:         Def DM=9

 Control:          Computer=Model 5fib x 3, Panels=Dynamic Linked x
1323, HUholoD x 9, Large Holodisplay x1

 Accom:      Officer=5 Crew=25 ( Bridge=3 Engineering=4 Gunners=4
Flight=4 Troops=10 Command=4 Stewards=1)
                  Staterooms=5, Small Staterooms=25, Emergency Low
Berths=6, Env=basic env, basic ls,
                  extended ls,  grav plates,  inertial comp, Airlocks x
4

 Subcraft:         Gig x1(20 dton, Crew=3, TL=13)

 Other:          Cargo=215 Kl/15.9 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=3485
Kl/258 tons, ObjSize=Large, Ram time= 2.2 hours


Author: Alan Spik
Adapted from
Ship: Outrim Ruby
Class: Outrim Jade
Type: Escort/Strike Patroller
Architect: Shemp

USP
         EP-66335C2-440000-40003-0 MCr 548.576 600 Tons
Bat Bear             2     2   2   Crew: 25
Bat                     2     2   2   TL: 13

Cargo: 10.000 Emergency Low: 6 Fuel: 210.000 EP: 30.000 Agility: 3
Marines: 10
Craft: 1 x 20T Pinnace
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x 1G Maneuver Drive 1 x Jump 1 Drive 1 x Factor 1 Power Plant
1 x
Model/1 Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 5.486   Cost in Quantity: MCr 438.861

Notes:

      As specified, w/o backups and increasing the power plant to
achieve agility 3 the vessel has a volume deficit of 150
     dtons. I changed the power plant to a primary/Secondary (Normal
operations/Weapons & Screens) power system 30/3
     days total 43+ EP ( With the below changes/notes this brings cargo
to 15.9 tons)
     Computer increased to 5 fib to cover control points
     Crew increased to 30 by crew calculation
     9 HUholoD installed for Gunners, Bridge Crew and some of command
crew. Large holodisplay installed
     Assume Officers are in standard staterooms Crew are in small
Staterooms
     In addition to A-EMS and P-EMS I installed TL appropriate Hi-pen
Densinometer and Neutrino detector
     Price increased
     Pinnaces in the OTU and IMTU are 40 dtons. I substituted a 20 dton
Gig.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote Black Ship
Message-ID: <3CC92D0B.F946A2A4@mindspring.com>

Grote Black Ship
The Grote Black Ship is the 57th century version of the containerized
cargo ship. They make a bee-line to the entrepot system,
stopping only long enough to refuel. In transit to their destination,
Black Ships refuel only at Class A or B ports in trustworthy
systems. Otherwise the escorting vessels act as fuel lighters during
frontier refueling. The wilderness refueling points may be
very distant gas giants, Kuiper belt objects, or random comets. A system
may never know that a Black Ship convoy has
passed through. They hump precious cargo and replacement crew from Grote
to whatever system has been designated the
sector entrepot that year. The clan traders moving along their trade
loops all eventually visit the designated entrepot system to
pick up new crew and high TL goodies. The boost in trade leads systems
in these sectors to compete among each other to host
the Grote entrepot. The Black ship is unusual in that it is built from
high tech parts imported to Grote by

 Craft ID:         Grote Black Ship, TL 13, 2403.599 Mcr, Quantity
discount 2163.239 MCr

 Hull:      6300/15750, Disp=7,000, Config=Irregular 7Usl,
Armour=Superdense 40E, Loaded=76334.002,
              Unloaded=53789.964

 Power:          Primary 125/250, Fusion=16,848 Mw, Duration=30 days,
Scoops, Purifiers 24 Hours
                     Secondary 113/226, Fusion=15210 Mw, Duration=3
Days( Weapons, Screens and Agility)
                     ExtEnd excludes: (1g), =62 days

 Loco:          315/630 Jump=4, 126/252, Maneuver=1G, Agility=0

 Comm:          Radio=System x 1, Laser =System x 1

 Sensors:   A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1, Hi-pen
Densinometer(1m) x 1, Neutrino(1Gw) x 1
                Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=F  POP=F  PES=R  PEP=F

 Off:         70 Hardpoints, 70 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  Triple Laser-13        x 10 in 10
battery
                                      Triple Sand-10      x 30 in 10
battery
                                      Triple Missile-13     x 30 in 3
Battery
                        Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Missile   7    -     -
                                          3
                             Laser     4    -    -
                                           10
                             Sand      6    -    -
                                           10

 Def:         Def DM= 6, Nuclear Damper=F3

 Control:          Computer=Model 6fib x 3, Panels=Holodynamic Linked x
4419, HUholoD x 64, Large holodisplay x 1

 Accom:          Officer=17 Crew=152 ( Bridge=10 Engineering=14
Maintenance=1 Gunners=47 Flight=10 Command=14
                      Stewards=3 Medical=70) Passengers: Low=1400
Staterooms=17 Small Staterooms=152, Low Berths=1400,
                      Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
inertial comp, Airlocks x 14

 Subcraft:         Gig x 1 (20 dton, Crew=3, TLC), Modular Cutter x 2
(50 dton, Crew=2, TLC)

 Other:          Cargo=20375.9 Kl/1509.3 tons, EMLevel=Moderate,
Fuel=30973 Kl/2294 tons, ObjSize=Large

Author: Alan Spik
Created from a discussion with Mr. LE Whipsnade

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:51:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:51:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Grotes Clan Shps
Message-ID: <3CC92DBB.6AA8007C@mindspring.com>

Hi all!
The vessels that follow were converted from LEW's HG2 designs of the
Grote Clan vessels.Or created from discussions concerning Grote and ways
to kill the PC's......I mean make the game more enjoyable.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC96FDE.27660.37E569C@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEGPHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rachel Kronick wrote :

> I think the most interesting aspect of this proposed
> tax is that it  necessitates a definition of what
> exactly "science fiction" is.

Good point.

> Is /Gravity's Rainbow/ SF?  Is /Flowers for Algernon/?

I'd say yes to both personally.

> What about Michael Crichton's stuff?

Yes, definitely. At least Andromeda Strain, and the Jurassic Park
stuff anyway.

> And maybe some drek would be exempted as being science
> fantasy -- the Star Wars franchise, /ID4/, etc.

That's probably the market they want to tax because it's so
profitable!

Would '1984' count as science fiction seeing as it is in the
past?
Or "2001" ?
How about Harry Turtledove's "The Guns of the South" ?
Or Steampunk (like the recent "Wild Wild West"?
And what about Yeats' "Erewhon" ?
Or Swift's "Gulliver's Travels" ?

Is "The Cube" SF or horror ?
How about "Event Horizon", "Pitch Black", or even "Alien"?

Deciding this could keep the US legislators busy for many months.

What a great idea this is, they could then start funding
hospitals with a tax on hospital dramas, and police forces with a
tax on police shows, and prisons with a tax on the Sopranos, and
mental institutions with a tax on "Fraser" (or perhaps any sitcom
for that matter, and those reality TV shows to boot).

> <facetious>
> Good, no more petty squabbling among people who actually read
> the stuff, now we're going to get a nice, clear
> government definition!
> </facetious>

That would probably be the best thing to come from this.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 05:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 04:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <3CC898A7.24874.A0B7D7@localhost>
Message-ID: <20426.032205.4g1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 25 Apr 2002 at 1:34, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
>> > least keep the false positive rate down.
>> 
>> You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
>> entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
>> take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
>> have to be present at the trial *there*. 
>
> Well sue the originating organisation. Then sue 'em for libel in that 
> they spread false infermation about you.

Trouble is, that doesn't work if it's a police department making an
"honest mistake". As I've said, over the years comp.risks has had posts
about a number errors of that sort.

The best you can get from the originating department is for them to fix
*their* records. They are *not* responsible for other departments
picking up the erroneous "want" and sticking it in their own databases.

You really and truly *do* have to sue each and every department,
individually.

Now in the "private mall, using this for security" scenario, then you
have a *much* better chance of winning a suit. But if it's a police
agency, it's a *lot* harder.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 05:21:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 04:21:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <001401c1ecd2$fada91c0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20426.031637.5Y6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>
> <snip>
>
>> Matt Bond wrote:
>> > Assuming the Cutter has already spent 8 G-Hours burning and is coasting
> when
>> > the Broadsword Jumps in at relative rest, just as the Cutter passes it.
>>
>> That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
>> emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.
>
> And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that IMTU
> while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
> calculable duration.

Pardon me for not keeping track of the ways your TU differs from the
OTU over the time that's passed since those posts...

If your TU differs from the "standard" one, then you need to
*explicitly* state applicable differences or live with people assuming
that anything you haven't specificly mentioned works "normally". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 05:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 04:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (OT/spam) FS: TSR's ALTERNITY gamebooks
Message-ID: <200204261140.g3QBeuG09224@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

  FWIW, if anyone is interested in space opera I've getting
rid of a largish collection of TSR's (or WotC - take your 
pick...) ALTERNITY rules and supplemnts, & STARDRIVE and 
DARK MATTER settings. Replies to me, _not_ the TML :)

  Steven Hudson - shudson@lightspeed.ca 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 06:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr 26 05:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise (With my Jump Durat
 ion rules reiterated)
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8B@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> 
> In mail you write:
<snip>
> > And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you 
> would know that IMTU
> > while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a 
> predictable and
> > calculable duration.
> 
> Pardon me for not keeping track of the ways your TU differs from the
> OTU over the time that's passed since those posts...
> 
> If your TU differs from the "standard" one, then you need to
> *explicitly* state applicable differences or live with people assuming
> that anything you haven't specificly mentioned works "normally". 

Well as I had mentioned it detail both in earlier parts of the piracy
thread *and* the astogation thread, I got tired of writing it out in
every post... 

To reiterate:

The only difference in my universe is that rather then rolling jump
duration *after* jump has commenced, and the duration being unknown
until just before emergence, I roll *before* jump, and the duration is
calculable by the astrogator prior to jump starting. Any other vessel
initiating jump from within a few thousand km of the jump intitation
point heading to within a few thousand km of the jump exit poit within a
few hours will have the same duration (to within a few minutes or less).
Jumps to or from diffent points, or at different times will have
different jump durations (ie roll a new duration). 

A skilled astrogator can calculate the jump duration for increasingly
distant start times, and so may be able to identify a quicker jump
duration 'window' occurring in several hours time that will result in
earlier arrival time than jumping immediately (ie roll a number of jump
'window' durations equal to the astrogators skill. Each window is
several hours long (somwhere between 4 and 6 seems appropriate). So you
if you have skill 4 you know *in advance* the jump duration if you jump
now, in 4 hours, 8 hours, 12 hours, or 16 hours time etc. 

Oh, and an 'astrogator' of skill 0 gets no advance rolls, so is stuck
with whatever jump duration he rolls on initiating Jump. He is unskilled
enough to calculate a jump duration before conditions have changed such
that the calculated time is moot. He still knows what time they will
emerge from jump though, as he can caulate the exit time and get the
answer a few hours into the jump as he knows what conditions were on
jump initiation...

What are the benefits of my interpretation of when jump duration is
rolled? Coordinated Fleet Movements and improved value of astrogation
skill. Both of which I find desirable. Downsides to my interpretation?
none that I can think of. I still retain the canonicity of random jump
duration, only my interpretaion of when the random duration is rolled is
different. 

And I'm hard pressed to recall any GDW canon (as opposed to possible
Gurps or DGP canon) which states that the rolled duration is unknown
until exit, just that there is a variable duration to jumps and that
they do not all take 7 days, but instead take roughly 6-8 days and a
roll is made to determine exact duration. Indeed I recall mention in
some GDW products that Fleets can arrive simultaneaously, which must
either mean jump duration is known in advance so that each ship can jump
in staggered intervals to co-ordinate arrival times, or all ships in a
given vicintity at a given time jumping to the same destination have the
same jump duration, or indeed, as I have interpreted it, jump duration
is both known in advance and is constant for a given jump at a given
time.

I await your comments with both bated breath and asbestos undies...

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 08:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 26 07:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On:  Glenn Grant's Smart Fabrics!
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1019830438.0.01037600@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Some years back, there was a discussion on the TML of the use of optic technology to weave a "smart" fabric. It was authored by Glenn Grant with the input of Rob O'Connor, Mikko, and others of this list. The results can be found on our mail host's wonderful Traveller Central website.

Well...

Today, ABCNews.com has posted a story of a Real Life(tm) fabric fiber (fibre, for those across the pond) that incorporates optic technology. The story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/CuttingEdge/cuttingedge020426.html

The team that developed the new fiber/fibre is part of the new Institute for Soldier Nanotechnology at MIT. Cost of the process is 10 U.S. cents per meter.

Reflec, anyone? 

I know, I know. We may not be there yet, but...

David Smart
("We Want Jumpdrive! We Want Jumpdrive!")

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 08:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 26 07:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Message-ID: <F257P5o7P6umLrXWq0G0000075e@hotmail.com>

From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>

     "The vessels that follow were converted from LEW's HG2 designs of the 
Grote Clan vessels.  Or created from discussions concerning Grote and ways 
to kill the PC's... I mean make the game more enjoyable."


Ladies and Gentlemen,

     I do hope you enjoy Mr. Spik's masterful MT conversions of two ships 
from a long ago campaign.  I know I have.
     His efforts gave me a new appreciation of MT's ship design rules.  I 
would have never thought it possible to do what he has done.
     For those of you who may be interested, here's a little background on 
the (supposed) thought processes that went into the original designs.

     Both the Trader and Patroller first saw life as Book2 designs.  In the 
case of the Trader, interpolation of the hull and engineering tabels was 
required.  The jump between Book2 and HG2 presented little difficulty.
     The Trader was an attempt to fashion a jump2 Beowulf.  The Patroller 
was an attempt to create a more "manageable" Broadsword.  While both vessels 
"fit" into a Whipsnadian TU, whether they could actually work in other TU's 
is debatable.  You can already see the problems one has recreating them in 
MT terms, whether they can built in FF&S1/2 or GT is unknown.  Indeed, 
whether the Trader can break even in GT:FT is unknown.
     In the few campaigns in which they they appeared, I never bothered to 
fully detail the Black Ships.  The PCs never served aboard one, visited one, 
or saw one, except at a great distance.  The Black Ships were a bit of 
background "chrome", like the omnipresent, but rarely seen, megacorp 
megafreighters.  Mr. Spik's wonderful design for the Black Ships now resides 
permanently on my hard drive and back-up discs.


     Flexiable Batteries

     I should also fill you in on a Whipsnadian house rule regarding 
batteries.  A flexiable battery structure was part of my campaign, 
especially aboard naval and PC-crewed vessels.  Put simply, during each 
combat round similiarly armed turrets could be grouped into batteries as the 
players saw fit.  Thus turrets can be split up into whichever battery 
grouping the PCs deem fit for the situation.  All the laser turrets can be 
consolidated for a better offensive strike or parceled out for more 
anti-missile chances.  You can combine several missile turrets into a more 
powerful salvo or split them into smaller salvos to swamp any anti-missile 
fire.
     In the case of the Outrim Jade, which sports two turrets with 3 beam 
lasers apiece, that vessel could either fire a single battery with an USP 
rating of 5 (6 lasers for 4, with +1 TL13 bonus) or two batteries with USP 
ratings of 4 (3 lasers apiece for 3, with the +1 TL13 bonus).  Obviously the 
missile turrets and sandcasters can be "flexed" in the same manner.
     Software, hardware, and manning requirements for the batteries/turrets 
gets a little squirrelly.  By GM fiat, I simply decreed that naval vessels 
had the software, hardware, and personnel necessary to "flex" their 
batteries into any configuration desired.  Getting the necessary software 
and hardware to do the same was a campaign goal for my PCs.  IIRC, I forced 
the PCs to set aside ~0.25 dT per turret for the mechanical end of things, 
plus another 1 dT on the bridge.
     The software costs were handled by requiring them to purchase all new 
offensive and defensive programming for the weapon types and abilities they 
wished to "flex".  Thus, to flex missile turrets they'd need both a new 
launch and target program.  To add gunner skills to the flexed batteries, a 
new interact program would be required.  To perform flexed anti-missile 
fire, a new program for that.  And so forth.
     Manning requires a bit more explanation.  Obviously, any turret used 
alone requires a gunner.  But only one gunner is needed for any battery.  To 
further confuse matters, any battery consisting of any number of turrets 
could be fired from a specific bridge station by a crewmember dedicated to 
that task for that combat round.
     Taking the Outrim Jade as an example; that vessel has two triple laser 
turrets.  One turret could be fired alone locally or in a battery from 
either the bridge or one of the turrets in that battery.  The gunner 
performing that action would be unable to do anything else during that 
combat round, i.e. DC work.
     This bit of Whipsnadian silliness also allowed the PCs to put gunnery 
skills to better use.  A PC with a high gunnery skill need not be shackled 
to a particular turret.  Instead, she could man a bridge station and take 
command of specific turrets or batteries depending on the situation.  My PCs 
seemed to enjoy the "extra" control in combat situations and it's all about 
having fun, right?

     I'm sure all of this will excite comments, mostly along the lines of 
"You're really #&$@#&$ nuts, Larsen", and I look forward to hearing them.  
Unfortunately, I will be away until late Sunday on business.  If your 
comments go unremarked over the next 72 hours, that is the reason why.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 09:12:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 08:12:44 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020425223624.044bbc10@rollanet.org>
References: <F182WZbQLbzjADMBLxt00008700@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426075429.009ed120@mindspring.com>

At 10:49 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
> From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry 
> (copyright 1968)
>
>     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
> only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
> goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
> Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer."

An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS.

Of course, it goes along nicely with ST's socialist view.. in the Soviet 
military all the technical jobs were held by officers.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 09:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 26 08:53:04 2002
Subject: Ship's weapons (was Re: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?)
Message-ID: <12b.105c4b92.29fad1cc@aol.com>

--part1_12b.105c4b92.29fad1cc_boundary
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In a message dated 4/26/02 2:10:03 AM Central Daylight Time, several 
anti-Meson opinions get flexed:
> 
> > I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
> > really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.
> 

That is a pretty good question, isn't it?  
   In its nondestructive form, it can be manipulated to be used as both an 
undetectable _and_ unjammable communications source, while in its _far_ more 
popular (and destructive) application, it can be manipulated in such a way as 
to entirely _bypass_ an otherwise solid hull to magically cause explosions 
_inside_ a target.
   The entire "it just does" concept (talk about handwaving) associated with 
Meson Technology has never sat right with me, and I've never used it IMTU.
   So the above question, along with several different takes on Starship 
Combat and weaponry on the web, got me to wondering about just _what_ 
technologies (whether canon or not) folks use or don't use.
   Illuminate me :)

  -Ken Murphy-
   
"When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer 
for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out 
of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God 
Almighty have mercy on you!" 

Legion of the Damned
Sven Hassel   


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/26/02 2:10:03 AM Central Daylight Time, several anti-Meson opinions get flexed:
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BR>&gt; I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
<BR>&gt; really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>That is a pretty good question, isn't it? &nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;In its nondestructive form, it can be manipulated to be used as both an undetectable _and_ unjammable communications source, while in its _far_ more popular (and destructive) application, it can be manipulated in such a way as to entirely _bypass_ an otherwise solid hull to magically cause explosions _inside_ a target.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">The entire "it just does" concept (talk about handwaving) associated with Meson Technology has never sat right with me, and I've never used it IMTU.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;So the above question, along with several different takes on Starship Combat and weaponry on the web, got me to wondering about just _what_ technologies (whether canon or not) folks use or don't use.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Illuminate me :)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR><P ALIGN=CENTER>"When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God Almighty have mercy on you!" 
<BR><P ALIGN=LEFT>
<BR>Legion of the Damned
<BR>Sven Hassel &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></P></P></FONT></HTML>

--part1_12b.105c4b92.29fad1cc_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 10:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Apr 26 09:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise (With my Jump Durat ion rules reiterated)
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8B@KARPAD01>
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8B@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <m3d6wmv36q.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> Downsides to my interpretation?  None that I can think of.

I like it in many ways, but it does means that a certain element of
adventure is removed.  That is, imagine that the Flying Wallenda is
fleeing Glisten with a jump-capable patrol boat just behind.  The
Wallenda makes it to 100D and jumps.  The patrol boat--knowing where
the Wallenda is jumping--makes the same jump, and they come out of
J-space at the same time.

Whereas in the traditional interpretation, they come out several hours
apart from one another in the average case.  Which is not a bad thing
for the Wallenda.

-- 
<+>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 10:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Apr 26 09:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
In-Reply-To: <F257P5o7P6umLrXWq0G0000075e@hotmail.com>
References: <F257P5o7P6umLrXWq0G0000075e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m38z7av321.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>      Flexiable Batteries

Brilliant!  I love it.  This should become part of canon, methinks.

-- 
<+>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 10:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 09:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019839692.4851.ajackson@ping>

Frank Pitt writes:
> 
> Oh, I don't know. If I was "in the field" I would be more
> concerned about my personal survival than the rest of the unit,
> and if the others were smokers that makes them bigger targets
> than I, presumably increasing my chances of survival!

Nah.  Increasing your chances of becoming collateral damage of shooting at
them.
> 
> I always remember the surprise I got when it was demonstratd to
> me that a person taking even a clandestine puff on a
> hand-shielded cigarette can be seen from over 2kms with the naked
> eye in the dark. The flare of a lit match is even more visible.

Interesting.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 11:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 10:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <3CC988C2.7060505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Frank Pitt wrote:

> Oh, I don't know. If I was "in the field" I would be more
> concerned about my personal survival than the rest of the unit,
> and if the others were smokers that makes them bigger targets
> than I, presumably increasing my chances of survival!
> <grin>

Only if the other side are snipers and not arty, or air support.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 11:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Apr 26 10:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
Message-ID: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>

> From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:20:51 -0500
> Subject: [TML] second verse same as the first Chameleon
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>
> --Message-Boundary-8302
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-disposition: inline
> Content-description: Attachment information.
>
> The following section of this message contains a file attachment

Shadowcat,

Please stop sending attachements. It fucks up the digest. If the file
you are sending is plain text the easiest way for it to be viewable
by all is to "copy all" from the source file and "paste" into the body 
of the email. If your source file is a binary it shouldn't be sent to
the mailing list at all.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 12:14:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 26 11:14:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEJGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
>entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
>take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
>have to be present at the trial *there*.

That's why we have class actions and contingency fee arrangements.  Whoever
gets misidentified first, please call me.  I'm pretty well connected to both
the police abuse and class action bars.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 12:36:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Fri Apr 26 11:36:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
In-Reply-To: <20020426125234.A14613@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204262034490.309178-100000@svati>

On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

>Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>> How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy
>> stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other
>> supplies and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require
>> PRECISE enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the
>> constant risk of possible allergens from all those plants wafting
>> their way through the ventilation system...
>
>Oy!  Stop giving my GM nasty ideas!

No, no Mr. Whipsnade! Don't listen to Tim, hsi GM likes the nasty
ideas :-)

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 12:40:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr 26 11:40:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
In-Reply-To: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEINDMAA.tml@downport.com>

He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't even know
it was happening. To fix the problem we are posting his ships on a web site
and he will just post the URL. If he can get GTS and Pegasus both to
cooperated, he may post plain text in the body of his messages. Here is the
URL again:

http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd

More GT ships and a load of High Guard designs are uploading... oop, done!
_____________________________________________
The Traveller Web Portal
http://www.downport.com
webmaster@downport.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of David Shayne
> Shadowcat,
>
> Please stop sending attachements.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 13:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Fri Apr 26 12:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
Message-ID: <l03010d02b8ef54d1ed86@[206.224.92.67]>

Two items I thought the folks here might be interested in:

The GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set:

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/anniversaryset/

And the 25th anniversary limited edition hardback: Only one press run,
limited to pre-orders. The cover is black bonded leather, foil stamped with
the Traveller 25th-anniversary seal. A special full-color art page is bound
into the front with the signatures.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/core/

You can make reservations for the hardback for the three weeks prior to its
release, contact orders@sjgames.com for details and an estimated date of
publication.



Loren Wiseman
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/
     SJ Games
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 13:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Apr 26 12:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
References: <20020426190109.0A0CC279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC9A9F9.B79CECC2@ameritech.net>




> From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>

> Subject: RE: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
> Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:38:25 -0400
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't even know
> it was happening. To fix the problem we are posting his ships on a web site
> and he will just post the URL. 

An admirable solution.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 14:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 26 13:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1019852076.0.55530000@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Frankie posted:
>
> Deciding this could keep the US legislators busy for many months.
>
> What a great idea this is, they could then start funding
> hospitals with a tax on hospital dramas, and police forces with a
> tax on police shows, and prisons with a tax on the Sopranos, and
> mental institutions with a tax on "Fraser" (or perhaps any sitcom
> for that matter, and those reality TV shows to boot).

Personally, I'd like to see our wonderfully competent and effective Congress have their salaries tied to taxes received from their episodes on C-SPAN.

The thought of them having to come up with ways to capture and hold the common person's interest in Congressional legislative activities that Congress really doesn't want general oversight on tickles me to no end.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 15:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 14:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
In-Reply-To: <l03010d02b8ef54d1ed86@[206.224.92.67]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426145538.009eabf0@mindspring.com>

At 02:07 PM 4/26/02 -0500, you wrote:
>The GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set:
>
>http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/anniversaryset/
>
>And the 25th anniversary limited edition hardback: Only one press run,
>limited to pre-orders. The cover is black bonded leather, foil stamped with
>the Traveller 25th-anniversary seal. A special full-color art page is bound
>into the front with the signatures.

Argh.  You would put this out two weeks after I go on disability.

Anyway, trying to justify buying three products I already own to my wife 
would result in temperatures similar to those found on Pluto.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 16:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 15:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEINDMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426150540.009fcec0@mindspring.com>

At 02:38 PM 4/26/02 -0400, you wrote:
>He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't even know
>it was happening. To fix the problem we are posting his ships on a web site
>and he will just post the URL. If he can get GTS and Pegasus both to
>cooperated, he may post plain text in the body of his messages. Here is the
>URL again:
>
>http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd
>
>More GT ships and a load of High Guard designs are uploading... oop, done!

Very nice!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 16:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 15:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
References: <l03010d02b8ef54d1ed86@[206.224.92.67]>
Message-ID: <3CC9DB27.6010501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Loren Wiseman wrote:

> http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/core/

Am I the only one here who went 'All RIGHT! A Core sourcebook!' only to 
be dissapointed?

(I mean the leather-bound 25th anniversary one was the first Kewl thing, 
right?)

No offense Loren, but for a moment, I thought 'The richest, most 
powerful worlds in the Imperium...it's very *heart* ... what a place!'

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 17:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 16:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426145538.009eabf0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC9DCEE.8BAC6647@mindspring.com>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 02:07 PM 4/26/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >The GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set:
> >
> >http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/anniversaryset/
> >
> >And the 25th anniversary limited edition hardback: Only one press run,
> >limited to pre-orders. The cover is black bonded leather, foil stamped with
> >the Traveller 25th-anniversary seal. A special full-color art page is bound
> >into the front with the signatures.
>
> Argh.  You would put this out two weeks after I go on disability.
>
> Anyway, trying to justify buying three products I already own to my wife
> would result in temperatures similar to those found on Pluto.
>
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Don't justify, rationalize. If that doesn't work swoon a little, then make her
go whoo-whoo. Works like a charm. ;)


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 26 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Message-ID: <16f.cbfbaed.29fb394e@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>>     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>> only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
>> goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
officer."
>
>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
TOS.

Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 18:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 26 17:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEINDMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <3CCA95A1.17493.79C160@localhost>

On 26 Apr 2002 at 14:38, Swordy wrote:

> He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't
> even know it was happening. 

Interesting. I use Pegasus and haven't had any complaints about that 
sort of thing. I found it really easy to turn off all the non 7-bit 
ASCII stuff.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 18:54:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri Apr 26 17:54:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Bruce Johnson writes:
>Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here,
>comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.
>
>You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via
>your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of
>false positives and false negatives.
>
>That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously,
>which means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched
>erroneously.

OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics, so
please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the odds
that the system will think I am? And if I am in the database, what are the
odds that the system will fail to recognize me?



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 19:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri Apr 26 18:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20020426070904.349CA27AFF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270302500.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Matthew Bond writes:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>
>>That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
>>emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.
>
>And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that IMTU
>while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
>calculable duration.

Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_ TU,
but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the OTU.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 19:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri Apr 26 18:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
References: <20020425052154.B00C227A9C@mail.travellercentral.com> <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC9FD69.B9D10187@premier.net>


David Smart wrote:
> 
> Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> very, very large capital ships?
> 
> I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
> spinal mounts.
> 
> I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
> sharing.
> 
> By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
> TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

I forwarded copies of three TL-15 battleships to David Smart. 
_Montana_, a 500,000 dton NPAW-armed ship; _Jean Bart_, a meson-armed
variant of _Montana_; and _Shiva_, a 1,000,000 dton NPAW-armed
behemoth.  All of these ships have been posted to the TML in the past.

Now, does anyone want me to repost them to the list?  Alternately, does
anyone simply want a copy sent to them?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 19:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 26 18:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020427114011.A16950@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics,
> so please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the
> odds that the system will think I am?

That depends upon the threshold they set, the lighting conditions, the
degree of similarity you have to the closest people in the database,
what you're wearing around your head and/or face, whether you've got a
cold (or whether the people in the database had one!), and many other
factors.  Then add in the probability that your image is in the
database by mistake.

You could think of 4% as being the *minimum* chance you'll be
misidentified as a miscreant.


> And if I am in the database, what are the odds that the system will
> fail to recognize me?

See all of the above, and add in whether you're actually trying to
avoid detection.  If it's raining, water on the face is probably an
excellent way to throw off feature detection; most contour-detection
systems respond *very* badly to having numerous glints in the salient
regions.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 21:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 20:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
In-Reply-To: <3CC9DCEE.8BAC6647@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426145538.009eabf0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426200839.009f7940@mindspring.com>

At 07:04 PM 4/26/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Don't justify, rationalize. If that doesn't work swoon a little, then make her
>go whoo-whoo. Works like a charm. ;)

Remember that I'm currently writing.. this means that our office is covered 
in piles of books, notes, and things labeled "Do not move this! Penalty is 
death or six hours of Dylan on the stereo! - The Genius"  The monitor has 
about three dozen cryptic Post-It notes with things like "D. Colhoun - 
stats? b-date?"  "Template for Flor." and "Rewrite K, L and M" (which is 
amusing when asked me why I was re-writing three Muni Metro lines.. )Also, 
her time on the computer is being interrupted by me racing in from  other 
rooms shouting "Start Word!  Move!  Must write sidebar!"  (Most of the time 
I get these bursts of inspiration in the shower...)

In short, her tolerance of GURPS, Traveller, and me are at low points right 
now.  :)

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                    - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 22:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr 26 21:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270302500.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <001d01c1eda0$cf53a400$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 2:11 AM
Subject: [TML] Re: Assumptions in Piracy Exercise


> Matthew Bond writes:
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> >
> >>That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
> >>emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.
> >
> >And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that
IMTU
> >while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
> >calculable duration.
>
> Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
> from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_ TU,
> but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the OTU.

Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump Duration
is unknowable until immediately prior to exit. And remember that DGP is not
Official Canon.

I can find no such reference in the books I find close to hand: Bk2, Bk5,
Gurps:Traveller... only a reference to the fact that jumps take respectively
1 week, 150-175 hours, and 168 hours +/- 0 to 10%...

And indeed, IMTU Jump duration is variable around 1 week. So show me where I
contradict canon. Just because my *interpretation* of the canon does not
coincide with yours does not necessarily mean that mine is any less valid,
even if many others share your view.

And in any case, the OTU explicitly includes piracy so surely any
interpretation of canon that aids in the existence of piracy must therefore
be welcomed with open arms under your apparent criteria for valid
discussion.

And If it transpires there is an explicit canon dictum that invalidates my
interpretation, then I offer my most profuse apologies for sullying the
value of this debate to you as a result of my asking how piracy could be
eradicated in my apparently perverse aberration of a traveller universe. I
will then henceforth only regale the list with verbatim quotation of
scripture^H^H^H^H canon no matter how internally inconsistent it may be! The
Gospel according to the Saint Marc is the very Word of God revealed to us
and I shall blaspheme no more...

Or not.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 22:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 21:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b8ee2476727f@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20426.212105.4Q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 2:35 PM -0400 4/25/02, Mark Urbin wrote:
>>Follow it with a 1% tax on art books, art supplies, and the sale of 
>>art (records, tapes, movie tickets, paintings, etc.) to fund federal 
>>art projects.
>
> I'm not sure these sort of things are such a bad idea.  It would tie 
> the projects in better with their constituencies.  For example, the 
> SF tax would give NASA funding from a source that puts a priority on 
> its activities and give those who are interested in space research 
> more results.  (And people are more tolerant of taxes that go to 
> specific things they support).

And just *how* long do you think it'd be before the money was diverted
to pet projects of influential Congress critters?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 23:01:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 22:01:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20426.212031.6T4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
>> plan
>> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
>> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
>> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
>> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
>> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
>> to "space,
>> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
>
> Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want to help make
> those dreams come true.

Then why is the money going to NASA?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 00:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 23:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <20020426080850.A14241@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20426.224425.6p0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Actually, it's the method ised by floppy *and* hard disk controllers
>> for just about everything. GCR and all the rest of that was only used
>> by Apple and Commodore.
>
> Yes, and wasn't even used in the Commodore Amiga.  It *could* read and
> write GCR, but at single density.  (The GCR encoding method looks
> better on paper, 4 bits out of 5, but is inherently lower-density for
> a given magnetic coercivity of medium.)
>
>
>> No, at the *hardware* level, it's still sectors and tracks.
>
> Not even that: at the *hardware* level, it's a sequence of magnetic
> polarity changes.  Software (or firmware) groups them into sectors and
> tracks.  The Amiga didn't have a firmware sector decoder; it read
> tracks in as '0' for no polarity change at the appropriate time, and
> '1' if there was.  The MFM decoding, sector recognition, and error
> checking was done in software -- by the CPU normally, but I wrote a
> driver that used the "Agnes" GPU instead.

Well, the FM/MFM decoding is part of the FDC *chip* ever since the WD
1771 chip in 1977.

>> *If* Commodore had used FM and MFM encoding on the disks, rather than
>> GCR (basicly a different way of modulating the signal that represents
>> the bitstream on the media), then all it'd take to read a C-64 disk on
>> a PC would be some fancy software. 
>
> As it is, most modern FDD controllers have MFM decoding and sector
> recognition in firmware or hardware, so you can't do GCR reading
> without changing chips.  However: there are software tricks by which
> you can read *most* low-density GCR in an MFM drive (as in recover 90%
> or so of the bits) so long as the drive hardware isn't too "smart" and
> refuses to read what it thinks is a damaged sector.  Lower-density GCR
> comes out with a predictable pattern of bits after MFM 'decoding'.
> The only problem is loss of synchronization in low-quality drives.

Well, as I noted, I have an old CopyIIPC option board. It goes between
the drive and the FDC board.

> I believe the Mac uses variable-speed drive hardware as well as GCR,
> so this trick won't work with Mac disks.  (At least, they did 10 years
> ago when I last played around with these things!)

Well, as I recall, the CopyIIPC board can read Macs somehow.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 03:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Apr 27 02:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk> <20020427114011.A16950@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <003601c1edd1$23d16dc0$3d9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


>
> See all of the above, and add in whether you're actually trying to
> avoid detection.  If it's raining, water on the face is probably an
> excellent way to throw off feature detection; most contour-detection
> systems respond *very* badly to having numerous glints in the salient
> regions.
>

The way a person moves is as distinctive as a fingerprint. Visual systems
exist that can identify a person by their biomechanics, with about the same
failure rate.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 04:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr 27 03:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <003601c1edd1$23d16dc0$3d9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk> <20020427114011.A16950@freeman.little-possums.net> <003601c1edd1$23d16dc0$3d9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020427203514.D17780@freeman.little-possums.net>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> The way a person moves is as distinctive as a fingerprint. Visual
> systems exist that can identify a person by their biomechanics, with
> about the same failure rate.

It seems much progress has been made in the last year or so, then.
The most recent time I looked at them, they required sensors or
reflectors to be attached at defined positions on the body for any
reasonable rate of success at all.  Has that requirement been
eliminated?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 05:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 04:12:02 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
Message-ID: <d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163@aol.com>

--part1_d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 4/26/02 11:16:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gridlore@mindspring.com writes:


> At 10:49 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry 
> > (copyright 1968)
> >
> >     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
> > only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
> > goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
> > Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
> officer."
> 
> An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
> TOS.
> 
> Of course, it goes along nicely with ST's socialist view.. in the Soviet 
> military all the technical jobs were held by officers.
> 
> 

I disagree that the use of the titles "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS implies 
that there were enlisted personnel on the Constitution class starships of 
that era. Roddenberry said in the book cited earlier that there were no 
enlisted onboard the ENTERPRISE. The references to "yeoman" and "chief" 
probably meant the jobs they held aboard the ENTERPRISE rather than their 
actual rank. 

Let us not forget that in the context of TOS we are talking about 
approximately I believe 12 to 13 ships with crews between 200 to 430 
personnel, upward to 5,000 + personnel out of an organization that was 
staffing assumedly a fleet of support ships and a dozen or more full service 
bases, and according to one TOS episode up to 1,000 outposts and/or space 
stations. As pointed out earlier, the ENTERPRISE and her sister ships were 
supposed to be the elite of the elite. I do not find it unbelievable that we 
would have strictly "commissioned officers" staff such vessels under those 
conditions. Lets look at Chief O'Brien too, he did not become and official 
enlisted man until he stepped down from his vaulted position on the 
ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on Deep Space Nine. Now admittedly there is 
nothing canon saying that a person can move between so-called enlisted 
positions and commissioned officers positions during their career (although 
it even happens in real life - I new a guy in Korea that was a captain in the 
army reserve, went active as noncommissioned officer) but if only the best 
are crewing the starships, then maybe a person in the enlighted 24th century 
Starfleet could have the extra prestige of being "commissioned" when in space 
but "enlisted" when assigned to mundane duties station or planet side. 

Who knows? I certainly do not, but I resist the natural tendency to 
automatically assume that Starfleet is a 19th/20th century military 
bureaucracy and not a fluid, enlightened civil service organization that 
celebrates diversity and individual accomplishment. 


Bob Range
"The Human Adventure is just beginning." Gene Roddenberry, 1979

--part1_d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 4/26/02 11:16:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gridlore@mindspring.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">At 10:49 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
<BR>&gt; From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield &amp; Gene Roddenberry 
<BR>&gt; (copyright 1968)
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
<BR>&gt; only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
<BR>&gt; goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
<BR>&gt; Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer."
<BR>
<BR>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS.
<BR>
<BR>Of course, it goes along nicely with ST's socialist view.. in the Soviet 
<BR>military all the technical jobs were held by officers.
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>I disagree that the use of the titles "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS implies that there were enlisted personnel on the Constitution class starships of that era. Roddenberry said in the book cited earlier that there were no enlisted onboard the ENTERPRISE. The references to "yeoman" and "chief" probably meant the jobs they held aboard the ENTERPRISE rather than their actual rank. 
<BR>
<BR>Let us not forget that in the context of TOS we are talking about approximately I believe 12 to 13 ships with crews between 200 to 430 personnel, upward to 5,000 + personnel out of an organization that was staffing assumedly a fleet of support ships and a dozen or more full service bases, and according to one TOS episode up to 1,000 outposts and/or space stations. As pointed out earlier, the ENTERPRISE and her sister ships were supposed to be the elite of the elite. I do not find it unbelievable that we would have strictly "commissioned officers" staff such vessels under those conditions. Lets look at Chief O'Brien too, he did not become and official enlisted man until he stepped down from his vaulted position on the ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on Deep Space Nine. Now admittedly there is nothing canon saying that a person can move between so-called enlisted positions and commissioned officers positions during their career (although it even happens in real life - I new a guy in Korea that was a captain in the army reserve, went active as noncommissioned officer) but if only the best are crewing the starships, then maybe a person in the enlighted 24th century Starfleet could have the extra prestige of being "commissioned" when in space but "enlisted" when assigned to mundane duties station or planet side. 
<BR>
<BR>Who knows? I certainly do not, but I resist the natural tendency to automatically assume that Starfleet is a 19th/20th century military bureaucracy and not a fluid, enlightened civil service organization that celebrates diversity and individual accomplishment. 
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Brush Script" LANG="0"><I>Bob Range</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="BernhardFashion BT" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Brush Script" LANG="0">"The Human Adventure is just beginning." Gene Roddenberry, 1979</I></FONT></HTML>

--part1_d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 05:15:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat Apr 27 04:15:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest (yes, just the digest!)
In-Reply-To: <20020425183523.109AF27990@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c1eddc$a474f180$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

The digest is back to not doing anything to MIME'd messages. I've noticed a
few coming through with all the HTML in it, but recently a couple of
messages have come through with attachments encoded so comprehensively that
the message is incomprehensible.

As an example, here's a message from Shadowcat that I've just come across
from in the digest...

> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #443 - 23 msgs
<Snip>
> Message: 18
> From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:12:24 -0500
> Subject: [TML] whoops, heres the ship
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> Content-description: Mail message body
>
>
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-disposition: inline
> Content-description: Attachment information.
>
> The following section of this message contains a file attachment
> prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
> If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system,
> you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
>
>    ---- File information -----------
>      File:  TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class Commerce Raider.htm
>      Date:  20 Mar 2001, 21:38
>      Size:  4748 bytes.
>      Type:  HTML-text
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736
> Content-type: Text/HTML; name="TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class
> Commerce Raider.htm"
> Content-disposition: attachment; filename="TL12 800-ton
> Chameleon-class Commerce Raider.htm"
> Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64
>
> PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcm
> Fuc2l0aW9u

<Snipped lots of BASE64 encoded stuff>

> eXJpZ2h0IKkgMjAwMCBieSBDVCBDb252ZXJzaW9uDQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo=
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736--
>

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi                      AndyLong@BigPond.com
 United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
                                +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 05:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat Apr 27 04:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Missed digest No. 438
Message-ID: <000701c1eddf$23468a80$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

Could some friendly soul please send me a copy of digest number 438?

Thanks in advance, Andy

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi                      AndyLong@BigPond.com	   	
 United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
                                +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260858570.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <3CCA8AF0.23335.3C507B0@localhost>

<snip>
>  Policing the area is a problem for cig smokers. The cigar smokers I knew
> would save the stub. Don'T remember the correct word. I smoked a pipe and
> all I needed to do was spead and cover the ash.

The word for the remains at the bottom of the pipe is "dottle".

Sinbad Sam
Former Pipe Smoker

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 10:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <b9.1fb0d3cc.29fc3384@aol.com>

John Groth writes:

>I forwarded copies of three TL-15 battleships to David Smart. 
>_Montana_, a 500,000 dton NPAW-armed ship; _Jean Bart_, a meson-armed
>variant of _Montana_; and _Shiva_, a 1,000,000 dton NPAW-armed
>behemoth.  All of these ships have been posted to the TML in the past.
>
>Now, does anyone want me to repost them to the list?  Alternately, does
>anyone simply want a copy sent to them?

And disrupt the TML's carefully smothered signal-to-noise ratio? Are you Mad?

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 14:24:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 27 13:24:06 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/27/02 4:11 AM, Olegamer@aol.com at Olegamer@aol.com wrote:
(Note:  I had to de-style this text, so quoting is ugly.  Please use plain
text on this list)


<quote>
I disagree that the use of the titles "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS implies
that there were enlisted personnel on the Constitution class starships of
that era. Roddenberry said in the book cited earlier that there were no
enlisted onboard the ENTERPRISE. The references to "yeoman" and "chief"
probably meant the jobs they held aboard the ENTERPRISE rather than their
actual rank. 
</quote>

I think that is should be remembered that Roddenberry came out of
commercial aviation IIRC.  An airliner, or a modern spacecraft is a very
different beast than a long duration exploration and paramilitary craft.
The 'enlisted' part of the crews in each essentially stay on the ground
while the officer pilots operate the vessel on short term flights.

I think RAH got it right when he used his own naval background is laying out
the crew structure of a star ship.  It more correctly reflects the type of
personnel and their duties aboard ship.

One also has to consider that Hollywood is a very different place.  Their
understanding of 'rank' is pretty detached from the real world.  After all,
while a directory may 'command' a TV program or movie, a 'star' can derail
to whole process if he or she doesn't get what they want.  So there's a
built in fiction that everybody is equally important and necessary, and that
no one is really above someone else (excluding extras, of course, who aren't
really people anyway)

<quote>
Let us not forget that in the context of TOS we are talking about
approximately I believe 12 to 13 ships with crews between 200 to 430
personnel, upward to 5,000 + personnel out of an organization that was
staffing assumedly a fleet of support ships and a dozen or more full service
bases, and according to one TOS episode up to 1,000 outposts and/or space
stations. As pointed out earlier, the ENTERPRISE and her sister ships were
supposed to be the elite of the elite.
</quote>

Why is this germane?  The SAS, Delta Force and other military elite units
are the creme de la creme of their respective armies.  They still reflect
the same rank structure as the military at large.  True, there are no
privates, but the enlisted still make up the majority of these units and do
the actual real work.

I think that al lot of this confusions is caused by most civilians view NCOs
and enlisted as 'not as good as' officers.  They don't understand the
difference between the two and their roles. Civilians, when they picture
themselves in uniform, almost invariably see themselves as officers.  The
truth is that many wouldn't like it.  My own experience is that as an
officer, you miss out on a lot of the 'fun'.  You are now an planner,
administrator and manager once you get past the lowest ranks.  The Buck
sergeants, corporals and specialists get to do all the fun stuff like shoot
the machine guns, pull the cannon lanyards and such  You never see Rambo or
those other elite commando types doing paperwork, writing evaluations and
all that crap.  Stuff I spent a lot of time doing after I was comissioned.

<quote>
I do not find it unbelievable that we would have strictly "commissioned
officers" staff such vessels under those conditions. Lets look at Chief
O'Brien too, he did not become and official enlisted man until he stepped
down from his vaulted position on the ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on
Deep Space Nine. 
</quote>

Again, I think this show a misunderstanding of what officers actually do in
the service (The exception being pilots, although the Army has Warrant
Officers for that.)  And I recall at least on episode of TNG, "Drumhead"
that involved the court martial of an enlisted crewman of the Enterprise, so
there must be some enlisted.

<quote>
Now admittedly there is nothing canon saying that a person can move between
so-called enlisted positions and commissioned officers positions during
their career (although it even happens in real life - I new a guy in Korea
that was a captain in the army reserve, went active as noncommissioned
officer) 
</quote>

This has to do with how long the person had been inactive.  When I was in
the 104th TNG, we has a lot of Drill Sergeants who were former officers
during Vietnam who got back into the reserves to earn those pensions.

<quote>
but if only the best are crewing the starships, then maybe a person in the
enlighted 24th century Starfleet could have the extra prestige of being
"commissioned" when in space but "enlisted" when assigned to mundane duties
station or planet side.
</quote>

See my comments about elite above.  Why do civilians view officers as being
'better' than enlisted.  They're not.  They just are different.  Someone has
to do the planning, paperwork and administration.  Somebody also has to do
the actual work.  

<quote>
Who knows? I certainly do not, but I resist the natural tendency to
automatically assume that Starfleet is a 19th/20th century military
bureaucracy and not a fluid, enlightened civil service organization that
celebrates diversity and individual accomplishment.
</quote>

I attempt not to gag.  Show me one single large organization that does not
have a rigidly defined hierarchy and still gets anything done.  Particularly
one that operates for long periods of time without interaction with society
at large.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 14:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Apr 27 13:49:02 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3r8l0j2cy.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
> And I recall at least on episode of TNG, "Drumhead" that involved
> the court martial of an enlisted crewman of the Enterprise, so there
> must be some enlisted.

Like so much else in ST, the existence of something as a plot device
in one episode does not mean that in exists at all in any other.  I
believe that the writers took Emerson's dictum a bit too seriously...

-- 
<+> Veni, vidi, vici
    Whinny, weedy, weaky
    Which sounds better?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 15:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Apr 27 14:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <b9.1fb0d3cc.29fc3384@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCENNGNAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Don't you mean noise to signal ration????


jml

And disrupt the TML's carefully smothered signal-to-noise ratio? Are you
Mad?

GC
_______________________________________________
T


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 15:45:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat Apr 27 14:45:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3CCB1CC6.60408@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
>>Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here,
>>comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.
>>
>>You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via
>>your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of
>>false positives and false negatives.
>>
>>That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously,
>>which means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched
>>erroneously.
> 
> 
> OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics, so
> please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the odds
> that the system will think I am? And if I am in the database, what are the
> odds that the system will fail to recognize me?

Same odds, no matter what: 1 in 25.

Leonard posted these numbers earlier, but here goes.

Assumption: you have a population of 10000 people, who may or may not be 
part of a database of 50 bad guys. (0.5% of the population)

4% failure rate means that in 4% of the cases, software fails to 
discriminate properly. (they did not give separate false positive and 
false egative error rates)

If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
member.

10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
correctly ID'ed.

50 bad guys * 0.04 = 2 false negatives in 10,000 examinations. 48 
correctly ID'ed

The only way to decrease the number of innocent people accused is either 
to increase the accuracy or increase the criminal population :-/

Notice, this analysis cannot really show how many criminals you will 
catch, becasue we don't know the distribution of criminals in the 
scanned population.

The above analysis actually assumes that ALL of the criminals in the DB 
are present in the scanned population. You are still id'in nearly one 
innocent person for every criminal caught. 40 vs 48, and 2 got away!

If, as appears to be the case, criminals avoid areas where such 
surveillance occurs, then the ratio of innocent vs criminal ID's goes up.

This system goes into effect...the criminals learn quickly. Say 80% 
start avoiding this area.

That means you're down to 10 crooks in the population. Of these 0.2 will 
get through...it's hard to say, most of the time you'll catch 'em all.

Now you have a ratio of 40 innocents to 10 crooks, you're dealing with 4 
times the innocent population caught in your dragnet.

As you increase the surveillance population, *unless* you increase your 
database correspondingly, you will get fewer and fewer returns for your 
efforts.

If *everyone* is in the database, then you will reduce that ratio 
Innocent:Crook to the error rate of your system.

Alas, increasing that database is far too easy these days...many states 
are using digitized photgraphs on their drivers licenses. In the test 
case in Flroda, when they scanned everyone coming in to Tampa Stadium 
(for the superboowl? The Orange Bowl...some bowl game) they used, as 
their Database, the entire florida drivers license DB.

Instant Police State. Just add technology.

Bruce




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 17:24:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 16:24:10 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
Message-ID: <bc.25ad7503.29fc8cd1@aol.com>

In a message dated 27/04/02 21:28:01 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


Again, I think this show a misunderstanding of what officers actually do in
the service (The exception being pilots, although the Army has Warrant
Officers for that.)  And I recall at least on episode of TNG, "Drumhead"
that involved the court martial of an enlisted crewman of the Enterprise, so
there must be some enlisted.


A medical technician. Although this implies an enlisted man it is conceivable 
that medical technicians are officers in the ST universe.

Of course this doesn't mean that the whole ST approach to rank isn't a load 
of old dingoes kidneys.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 18:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 27 17:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3CCB1CC6.60408@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>> Bruce Johnson writes:
>> 
>>>Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here,
>>>comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.
>>>
>>>You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via
>>>your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of
>>>false positives and false negatives.
>>>
>>>That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously,
>>>which means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched
>>>erroneously.
>> 
>> 
>> OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics, so
>> please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the odds
>> that the system will think I am? And if I am in the database, what are the
>> odds that the system will fail to recognize me?
>
> Same odds, no matter what: 1 in 25.
>
> Leonard posted these numbers earlier, but here goes.
>
> Assumption: you have a population of 10000 people, who may or may not be 
> part of a database of 50 bad guys. (0.5% of the population)
>
> 4% failure rate means that in 4% of the cases, software fails to 
> discriminate properly. (they did not give separate false positive and 
> false egative error rates)
>
> If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
> are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
> member.
>
> 10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
> correctly ID'ed.

Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives. 

> 50 bad guys * 0.04 = 2 false negatives in 10,000 examinations. 48 
> correctly ID'ed

> The above analysis actually assumes that ALL of the criminals in the DB 
> are present in the scanned population. You are still id'in nearly one 
> innocent person for every criminal caught. 40 vs 48, and 2 got away!

No, you've IDed 8 1/3 innocent people for each criminal caught. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 18:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 17:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <20020427.170606.-112869.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

on 4/27/02 4:11 AM, Olegamer@aol.com at Olegamer@aol.com wrote:
<quote>
I do not find it unbelievable that we would have strictly "commissioned
officers" staff such vessels under those conditions. Lets look at Chief
O'Brien too, he did not become and official enlisted man until he stepped
down from his vaulted position on the ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on
Deep Space Nine. 
</quote>

Well, after a simple web search for startrek enterprise, then a scroll
down to O'Brien, I came up with his stats. It doesn't matter what Gene R.
intended, there were enlisted personnel onboard. See below.

   Miles O`Brien
Chief of Operations  

PERSONNEL FILE: O'Brien, Miles Edward
**Includes summary updates, addenda through SD 52999 (2375) 
Played By: Colm Meany
Rank: Chief petty officer, senior chief specialist
Current assignment: Professor of Engineering, Starfleet Academy;
previously, Chief of Operations, Deep Space Nine
Full Name: Miles Edward O'Brien
Year of birth: September, 2328
Place of birth: Killarney, Ireland, Earth
Parents: Mr. and Mrs. Michael O'Brien (mother died 2368; father remarried
2369)
Marital status: Married Keiko Ishikawa in 2367 in Ten-Forward, U.S.S.
Enterprise
Children: One daughter, Molly, born 2368; a son, Kirayoshi, born 2373
Quarters: Currently relocating to Earth from residence at Deep Space Nine
(several cities under consideration)
Security clearance: Level 1


Starfleet Career Summary 

2345 -- Enrolled in Starfleet Academy.

2346 -- Enlisted as a non-commissioned officer in Starfleet.

2347 -- As young crewman posted to NCC-57295 U.S.S. Rutledge under Capt.
Ben Maxwell, was decorated after clash with Cardassians on Setlik III and
re-assigned by Maxwell as a bridge tactical officer.

2364 -- After serving on two more ships in the last two years,
transferred to new U.S.S. Enterprise under Captain Jean-Luc Picard as
relief flight control officer in command duty division and later as
security in operations division.

2365 -- Re-assigned at chief petty officer rank to Enterprise transporter
chief, usually posted in Transporter Room 3.

2369 -- Accepted offer as chief of operations at Deep Space Nine, onetime
Cardassian mining station, under Cmdr. Ben Sisko.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 20:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Apr 27 19:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
Message-ID: <3CCB57F5.D59D4658@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>
>http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd
>
>>More GT ships and a load of High Guard designs are uploading... oop, >>done!

>Very nice!

Very nice indeed! And a GT version of my Zhilqatij class Strike Cruiser!
Now I feel honored...

"I would like to thank the members of the Academy..."

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: didn't get Digest No 438
Message-ID: <000b01c1ee60$b56ee7a0$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

I have now received copies of this digest. Thank you to all who sent them

Andy

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi                      AndyLong@BigPond.com	  	
 United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
                                +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
In-Reply-To: <20020427.170606.-112869.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c1ee61$8a7d2420$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Well, after a simple web search for startrek enterprise, then a scroll
> down to O'Brien, I came up with his stats. It doesn't matter what Gene R.
> intended, there were enlisted personnel onboard.  ...

And here I thought this was all common knowledge.

Roddenberry intended that all starfleet personel on the Enterprise were
"officers".  While this made no sense at all, this was the stated intention.
This applied through all of TOS and into TNG.

The best example of this was (appropriately enough), Miles O'Brien.

When Colm Meany's character was first introduced in TNG he was an officer
and wore the pips of a Lt on his collar.  This was consistent through the
first 2-3 seasons.

Later, when the post-Roddenberry powers decided to start fleshing out
the character, he was officially named and made enlisted.  (In one
particular episode, the one with Worf's human parents, he is specifically
identified as such.)  O'Brien was enlisted long before he ever transfered
to DS9.  Note that the character was never demoted in a story or
anything, the O'Brien's character was just retroactively "changed" to
have always been enlisted.

So, we are left with the situation that while Roddenberry intended for
only officers to serve aboard the Enterprise, the later powers (Berman?)
decided that the Enterprise should have enlisted personel after all, and
the change was made.

What this all has to do with Traveller, I dunno.  Sorry for wasting
everyone's time, and I am embarrassed to admit this much knowledge of
Star Trek, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:10:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:10:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020427111811.41F13279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Matthew Bond writes:
>From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>>Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
>>from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_ TU,
>>but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the OTU.
>
>Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump Duration
>is unknowable until immediately prior to exit.

It may or may not be known from the moment you enter jump, but it is
implicit in the game mechanic that fixes the jump duration by a single
random die roll that you can't figure it out until it is to late to abort
the jump. Otherwise ships would keep making the calculations (at 20
minutes a pop) until they found a solution that would take them to their
destination in less than the (so-called) average time of 7 days.

>I can find no such reference in the books I find close to hand: Bk2, Bk5,
>Gurps:Traveller... only a reference to the fact that jumps take respectively
>1 week, 150-175 hours, and 168 hours +/- 0 to 10%...

>And in any case, the OTU explicitly includes piracy so surely any
>interpretation of canon that aids in the existence of piracy must therefore
>be welcomed with open arms under your apparent criteria for valid
>discussion.

Of all the pirates that I can recall that the OTU explicitly includes,
none of them make a living preying on interplanetary craft[*]. Even if
your scheme turned out to be workable, it still wouldn't explain the
pirates that (according to the ship encounter tables and various
adventures) lie in wait for PCs when they jump into a system as close to
the mainworld as they can possibly get.

[*] Though I suppose the ones in the character generation tables may.


Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:47:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:47:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
In-Reply-To: <000a01c1ee61$8a7d2420$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEJLDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Then the whole thing with the yeoman and the captain had nothing to do with
officer/enlisted fraternization? Blows _my_ mind.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mike West
>
> And here I thought this was all common knowledge.
>
> Roddenberry intended that all starfleet personel on the Enterprise were
> "officers".  While this made no sense at all, this was the stated
> intention.
> This applied through all of TOS and into TNG.
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 22:08:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr 27 21:08:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Canon and Jump Duration (was Re: Piracy assumptions)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <000e01c1ee6a$4f48ce00$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 4:09 AM
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions


> Matthew Bond writes:
> >From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
> >
> >>Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
> >>from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_
TU,
> >>but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the
OTU.
> >
> >Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump
Duration
> >is unknowable until immediately prior to exit.
>
> It may or may not be known from the moment you enter jump, but it is
> implicit in the game mechanic that fixes the jump duration by a single
> random die roll that you can't figure it out until it is to late to abort
> the jump. Otherwise ships would keep making the calculations (at 20
> minutes a pop) until they found a solution that would take them to their
> destination in less than the (so-called) average time of 7 days.

Hence my stating that the roll applies to any jump from point A to Point B
within the next few hours. Astrogation-0 IMTU gives exactly the same result
(Jump Duration unknown until committed to Jump). Astrogation-1 lets the
astrogator see the resulting duration prior to final commitment to jump.
Astrogation 2+ allows the astrogator to calculate jump duration for jumps in
the subsequent (Astrogation Skill)-1 Jump 'windows', where each window
encompasses a few hours.

How about you removing your CanonVision(TM) Blinkers and considering this
variation on Jump Duration and Astrogation on its own merits. Does it
'break' canon? Not particularly IMHO. Does it enhance canon? Well, it
certainly allows Fleets to arrive together... and makes Skilled Astrogators
worth having... both of which I feel are useful.

You seem to feel that being able to calculate a jump duration is
'uncanonical', where all that I can find in canon is that the duration
varies at approximately a week +- 10% or so. Canon doesn't (in the reference
I have to hand anyway) make any comment other than this. It doesn't
explicitly say that two ships jumping from point A to Point B at the same
time make different rolls. Most people seem to assume that this is implied,
but I would simply say that the rules are assuming the players are on a
single ship and are only concerned with their own particular Jump Duration.

If I as GM choose to apply this same time to all ships jumping between the
same two points within a similar timeframe, I am free to do so. I could even
state that a jump between two given systems ALWAYS takes the same time, and
the roll is just to determine this time the first time the players jump
between those two systems. Or I could say that all jumps have random
durations all the time (as you and many others feel is the case). All three
of these options is just as valid in canon, as all canon states is that not
all Jumps take the same time, and that the variation is within set limits
around one week.

Now if you want to persist in deriding me for being 'uncanonical' please
direct me to a valid reference that invalidates my assumptions. It may be
that it is in some supplement or magazine article I do not possess. But just
because it is different to the way you have always done things doesn't
necessarily make it uncanonical, if it covers an aspect of Traveller that is
not explicitly covered by canon.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 22:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Kim)
Date: Sat Apr 27 21:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>
References: <20020424063707.194DD27A34@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <p0510150db8f1258b9cb4@[10.0.1.10]>

At 6:54 AM -0500 4/24/02, David Smart wrote:

>An interesting sidenote for Traveller is the experience on one of the
>many
>Apollo flights. Apollo 8, I think. 'Twould seem one of the astronauts
>had
>a bout with some food that didn't agree with him. It hit when they had
>been
>in orbit preparatory to leaving for the moon. No one informed Mission
>Control and they were told to proceed (lose out on going to the moon
>'cause
>of the trots? As if!).

	Frank Borman, the commander of Apollo 8 was violently sick 
early in the mission.  Started throwing up and in the midst of 
retching had massive diarrhea.  Apparently, the cleanup was rather 
unpleasant :).  A big blob of vomit hit Jim Lovell in the chest.

	Borman didn't want to announce to the world over the open 
loop that he had been ill, so they recorded a message on tape that 
got dumped with the spacecraft telemetry.  After the tape had been 
listened to, there was serious discussion of canceling the mission. 
The surgeons were worried that whatever Borman had might be passed to 
the rest of the crew.

	In the end, it was decided to let the mission go through. 
Borman was feeling much better and it was too late to use the Service 
Module's engine to do a direct abort.  No matter what, Apollo 8 was 
going to go around the moon anyway so they might as well wait see how 
everyone was feeling when they went into orbit

	There's a good telling of this event in Chaikin's _A_Man_On_the_Moon_.

Space Nut Justin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 03:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeffrey Malone)
Date: Sun Apr 28 02:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Sickness and the Political Control of Information
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk> <000e01c1ee6a$4f48ce00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <001301c1ee93$5bbcfd40$4e7354d2@1338700057>

Followers of the TNS may have noted that the story of Jeffrey Long, ace
reporter revealing the truth (?) of Jump Sickness, has appeared in the G:T
timeline.  I have always been of the view that Jump Sickness is probably
more political than physiological in origin.  The reason?  The time edge
that control of a J-6 information network (versus a J-4 or less general
information network for Joe Public) gives any large interstellar state.
Noting that mis-jump may cause an effective jump well beyond J-6 (up to J-30
or J-36, IIRC, depending on rule set), I would wonder whether the average
duration of Jump Sickness is up to the 36 week timeframe.  Requiring the
absolute quarantine of the poor vicitms, I suspect.

The bottom line:  Jump Sickness has more to do with protecting the Imperial
body politic from destabilising uncontrolled information flows, than its
alleged victims.

Comments?

J.M. Malone


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 05:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 28 04:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <146.da76e8b.29fd3d17@aol.com>

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In a message dated 4/27/02 11:10:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mjwest@caddocourt.com writes:


> What this all has to do with Traveller, I dunno.  Sorry for wasting
> everyone's time, and I am embarrassed to admit this much knowledge of
> Star Trek, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.
> 
> Mike West
> 
> 

Thank you Mr. West for imputting your 2 credits, I for one enjoyed the 
clarification. 

Bob Range
aka Olegamer

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/27/02 11:10:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mjwest@caddocourt.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">What this all has to do with Traveller, I dunno. &nbsp;Sorry for wasting
<BR>everyone's time, and I am embarrassed to admit this much knowledge of
<BR>Star Trek, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.
<BR>
<BR>Mike West
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Thank you Mr. West for imputting your 2 credits, I for one enjoyed the clarification. 
<BR>
<BR>Bob Range
<BR>aka Olegamer</FONT></HTML>

--part1_146.da76e8b.29fd3d17_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 09:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 28 08:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
Message-ID: <200204281505.FEN01862@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Justin Kim <jlkim@mail.com>  
>After the tape had been listened to, there was serious 
>discussion of canceling the mission. 
>The surgeons were worried that whatever Borman had might be 
>passed to the rest of the crew.
>

The Intergalactic Laxative will get you from here to Mars....
________________
NO! Sentence first, verdict after!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 09:18:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Apr 28 08:18:12 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020428151458.60631.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

I think that al lot of this confusions is caused by
> most civilians view NCOs
> and enlisted as 'not as good as' officers.  They
> don't understand the
> difference between the two and their roles.
> Civilians, when they picture
> themselves in uniform, almost invariably see
> themselves as officers.
Well, this is just my two cents. Officers enjoy more
luxuries than enlisted men and are seen as less
expendable. C'mon , they get paid better get better
jobs and benefits,just better every thing from
uniforms to housing. The requirements are harder too. 
It's no wonder people think this.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 09:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 28 08:42:02 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <20020428151458.60631.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8F16629.58CB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/28/02 8:14 AM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> Well, this is just my two cents. Officers enjoy more
> luxuries than enlisted men and are seen as less
> expendable. C'mon , they get paid better get better
> jobs and benefits,just better every thing from
> uniforms to housing. The requirements are harder too.
> It's no wonder people think this.

I suppose so.  Just for the record, officers pay for their own uniforms and
meals. 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 11:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 10:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
>>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
>>member.
>>
>>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
>>correctly ID'ed.
> 
> 
> Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives. 

Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...

IAC, this only makes my later analysis much worse.

("Oh, waiter! We asked for an order of magnitude here!")

Bruce



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 11:53:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Apr 28 10:53:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Big Brother


> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> >>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you
> >>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a
> >>member.
> >>
> >>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960
> >>correctly ID'ed.
> >
> >
> > Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives.
>
> Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...
>
> IAC, this only makes my later analysis much worse.

Ok, this takes into account any given analysis... so what happens when the
system analyses several frames of the CCTV footage... The chances of the
same Innocent person being repeatedly misidentified as being in the database
surely falls, and similarly the chance of correctly identifying a criminal
as being in the database rises.

If the threshold for flagging a particular person as being worth further
investigation (and I would expect that the first level of investigation is
simply to get a human operator to look at the screen and compare the image
with that in the database...) is set to be say 7+ positives out of 10 frames
analysed, then the system can filter out many of the false positives and
false negatives before raising it to a higher level of investigation.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 12:01:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Sun Apr 28 11:01:08 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <200204281505.FEN01862@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204281059510.9237-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Justin Kim <jlkim@mail.com>  
> >After the tape had been listened to, there was serious 
> >discussion of canceling the mission. 
> >The surgeons were worried that whatever Borman had might be 
> >passed to the rest of the crew.
> >
> 
> The Intergalactic Laxative will get you from here to Mars....

OMG!!!  I know that song!!!

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 12:13:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 11:13:57 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204281059510.9237-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3CCC3B8E.503094B7@premier.net>


Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
<<snip>>

> > The Intergalactic Laxative will get you from here to Mars....
> 
> OMG!!!  I know that song!!!

Ah, so we have at least _two_ Donovan fans on the list....

I saw him live at a bar in Monterey, CA in 1985.  My roommate had a
Donovan concert poster from circa 1967 (IIRC, it was for a Donovan/H.P.
Lovecraft double-bill at the Fillmore West), so I brought it with me (my
roommate being under 21) and got it autographed.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 13:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Apr 28 12:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020428173927.27A3A27990@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Matthew Bond writes:
>From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>>Matthew Bond writes:
>>>Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump
>>Duration is unknowable until immediately prior to exit.
>>
>>It may or may not be known from the moment you enter jump, but it is
>>implicit in the game mechanic that fixes the jump duration by a single
>>random die roll that you can't figure it out until it is to late to abort
>>the jump. Otherwise ships would keep making the calculations (at 20
>>minutes a pop) until they found a solution that would take them to their
>>destination in less than the (so-called) average time of 7 days.
>
>Hence my stating that the roll applies to any jump from point A to Point B
>within the next few hours.

Ships getting long jump durations would still have the option of waiting
for the next jump 'window' and try again. This IS an addition to the
canonical jump mechanics. Not to mention that it won't actually help your
pirates much. They'll still have to find a jump window that just happens
to put them in the right spot at the right time. Say the first window
would put them at the intercept spot four hours too late and they
calculate that. So they wait for the next jump window and finds that now
they'll arrive six hours too early. So instead of one chance at really
lousy odds they get six or eight changes at really lousy odds. It's a
gain, but is it enough of a gain?

>Astrogation-0 IMTU gives exactly the same result (Jump Duration unknown
>until committed to Jump). Astrogation-1 lets the astrogator see the
>resulting duration prior to final commitment to jump. Astrogation 2+
>allows the astrogator to calculate jump duration for jumps in the
>subsequent (Astrogation Skill)-1 Jump 'windows', where each window
>encompasses a few hours.

The old 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absense' saw applies to
things that have not been dealt with at length in rules and adventures.
Something like what you can and cannot do with Astrogation skill has been
dealt with in detail and the absence of any mention of such abilities IS
evidence that it doesn't exist. In canon, that is.

>How about you removing your CanonVision(TM) Blinkers and considering this
>variation on Jump Duration and Astrogation on its own merits. Does it
>'break' canon? Not particularly IMHO. Does it enhance canon? Well, it
>certainly allows Fleets to arrive together... and makes Skilled Astrogators
>worth having... both of which I feel are useful.

I presume that you mean that it enhances the roleplaying potential of the
setting, not the canon. Without getting sidetracked into discussing just
how brilliant the idea is, let me say that IMO the prime function of
having a 'continuity bible' for a shared universe is to prevent authors
from messing up the setting by introducing pet ideas that may be perfectly
good ideas in their own right but would contradict previously published
information.

I'm not a fanatic about canon. If Marc came up with an absolutely amazingly
good idea for the Traveller setting that unfortunately required that he edit
out the Ancients retroactively, then I might accept that... if the idea was
truly amazing. But I think the bar is a lot higher when it comes to
contraditing the existing background than when it comes to introducing ideas
about previously untouched territory.

>You seem to feel that being able to calculate a jump duration is
>'uncanonical', where all that I can find in canon is that the duration
>varies at approximately a week +- 10% or so. Canon doesn't (in the reference
>I have to hand anyway) make any comment other than this.

I found a couple last night. On p. 92-93 of _MT:Imperial Encyclopedia_
there is a descrition/Referee's checklist of how to conduct a jump. Step 8
is to engage the jump drive. Step 9 has the ship entering jumpspace
whereupon the referee determines the jump duration. The text does not
indicate whether he informs the players about the duration immediately or
not. However, on p. 66 of _GT:Far Trader_ is an illustration of a crew
lounge during a jump. On the wall is a prominently displayed 'Elapsed jump
time' clock. I think that if the crew knew of the exact time of breakout,
that clock would display 'Time to breakout' instead. (And yes, I know that
illustrations have a lower evidence value than text, but if an
illustration doesn't contradict any text, I consider it valid).

On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of misjump
that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've misjumped as
the time stretches out past the estimated breakout time. If they knew
exactly when they were supposed to emerge, they'd know something was wrong
within a few minutes of passing that time. I _think_ is was somewhere in a
CT book, but I can't recall if it was rules or and adventure. I'll see if
I can dig it up. (If anyone else can provide a reference, please do so).

>If I as GM choose to apply this same time to all ships jumping between the
>same two points within a similar timeframe, I am free to do so. I could even
>state that a jump between two given systems ALWAYS takes the same time, and
>the roll is just to determine this time the first time the players jump
>between those two systems.

Of course you can. It's your universe. But would you be able to do so if
you were writing a Traveller adventure for official publication? I believe
not. (Not that it is my call to make, of course).

>...Or I could say that all jumps have random durations all the time (as
>you and many others feel is the case). All three of these options is just
>as valid in canon, as all canon states is that not all Jumps take the
>same time, and that the variation is within set limits around one week.

Even if that was true (which I don't agree with), only one of those three
options could be true for any particular universe. The moment someone uses
one of the options in an official adventure, BANG!, it's the way things
are, always have been, ad always will be in the OTU.

>Now if you want to persist in deriding me for being 'uncanonical' please
>direct me to a valid reference that invalidates my assumptions.

Well, I don't think I've derided you yet, so I can't persist. But take the
above two references as a start (of references, not of deriding). I'll see
if I can dig up more.

>But just because it is different to the way you have always done things
>doesn't necessarily make it uncanonical,

I agree. I've made mistakes before. I don't think I'm doing it now,
though.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 15:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 28 14:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>
References: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020429074417.A25504@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Ok, this takes into account any given analysis... so what happens when the
> system analyses several frames of the CCTV footage... The chances of the
> same Innocent person being repeatedly misidentified as being in the database
> surely falls, and similarly the chance of correctly identifying a criminal
> as being in the database rises.

No.  Repeating the same analysis on slightly different frames merely
spreads the error rates out worse still.

A more detailed analysis: the system is based on a "similarity" score.
In different frames (at different angles, lighting, etc), the score
will vary.  In particular, it will look like a "bell" as the person
being identified passes through their 'best' profile, with a large
amount of noise superimposed on the curve.

This will happen even for people not in the database, since even
innocent people's faces look more like that of a miscreant than the
back of their head does, or their face at a drastically different
angle.

Now, the 4% error quoted is for the best case: a clear shot of the
subject's face under good consistent lighting at about the same angle
as the shots in their database.  


> If the threshold for flagging a particular person as being worth
> further investigation is set to be say 7+ positives out of 10 frames
> analysed, then the system can filter out many of the false positives
> and false negatives before raising it to a higher level of
> investigation.

Unfortunately not.  If you do that, then yes, you drop the chance of
misidentifying an innocent somewhat.  However, you grossly drop the
chance of correctly identifying someone in the database -- you'll
virtually *never* have a full 7 frames with a high score.  So you have
to lower your threshold (a lot), consequently increasing the chance of
misidentifying innocents.  If you do the maths on the identification
curves, you'll see that this always ends up with a worse trade-off
than before.  Although it 'sharpens' the identification curve, it
sharpens the *noise* in the curve even more.


> (and I would expect that the first level of investigation is simply
> to get a human operator to look at the screen and compare the image
> with that in the database...)

This would help, but means you need to employ someone full-time to
compare the images.  Furthermore, there is going to be a large overlap
between what the computer misidentifies and what a human would -- the
suspect and database image do have similar faces, after all.  Humans
aren't known for being that accurate either.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Apr 28 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide
Message-ID: <003501c1eefe$04116fc0$85e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1EF06.32FC43C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Traveller's Aide #1 seems to be receiving a warm welcome, and several =
more issues are in preparation.=20

However, we're still open to anyone interested in writing future =
volumes.

All Traveller's Aides will be "official" traveller material and thus =
compatible with all versions of the rules. Stats for  T20 and CT are =
included in all. The "Home" setting of T20 is year 1000, which is close =
enough to the late-golden-age CT setting that supplements can be =
compatible with both. We have a wish-list but we're also open to =
suggestions.=20

We particularly need adventures of the LBB sort right now, and these =
need not be set in the T20 "Home" setting of Gateway Domain. I.e. if you =
have an adventure for CT set in the Marches or the Rim, Lishun Sector in =
Year 0, or wherever, we'll consider it.=20

Mail me direct for more details.=20


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1EF06.32FC43C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Traveller's Aide #1 seems to be =
receiving a warm=20
welcome, and several more issues are in preparation. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>However, we're still open to anyone =
interested in=20
writing future volumes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>All Traveller's Aides will be =
"official" traveller=20
material and thus compatible with all versions of the rules. Stats =
for&nbsp; T20=20
and CT are included in all. The "Home" setting of T20 is year 1000, =
which is=20
close enough to the late-golden-age CT setting that supplements can be=20
compatible with both. We have a wish-list but we're also open to =
suggestions.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We particularly need adventures of the =
LBB sort=20
right now, and these need not be set in the T20 "Home" setting of =
Gateway=20
Domain. I.e. if you have an adventure for CT set in&nbsp;the Marches or =
the Rim,=20
Lishun Sector in Year 0, or wherever, we'll consider it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mail me direct for more details. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1EF06.32FC43C0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 16:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 15:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>
>> >>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you
>> >>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a
>> >>member.
>> >>
>> >>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960
>> >>correctly ID'ed.
>> >
>> >
>> > Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives.
>>
>> Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...
>>
>> IAC, this only makes my later analysis much worse.
>
> Ok, this takes into account any given analysis... so what happens when the
> system analyses several frames of the CCTV footage... The chances of the
> same Innocent person being repeatedly misidentified as being in the database
> surely falls, and similarly the chance of correctly identifying a criminal
> as being in the database rises.

The system *is* analyzing several frame, just to get *usable* data. 

Try a freeze frame on your VCR to see just how *bad* the resolution of
broadcast TV is. CCTV systems aren't any better. You have to
interpolate from several frames just to get enough detail. 

And the given error rate is most definitely *not* from analyzing a
single frame.

> If the threshold for flagging a particular person as being worth further
> investigation (and I would expect that the first level of investigation is
> simply to get a human operator to look at the screen and compare the image
> with that in the database...) is set to be say 7+ positives out of 10 frames
> analysed, then the system can filter out many of the false positives and
> false negatives before raising it to a higher level of investigation.

Again, you are completely off base with regards to how the analysis is
being done. It's *not* matching individual frames against *anything*.
It's using multiple frames to derive enough detauils to *attempt* a match.

It *has* to. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 16:03:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 15:03:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20428.143242.4c0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
>>>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
>>>member.
>>>
>>>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
>>>correctly ID'ed.
>> 
>> 
>> Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives. 
>
> Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...

It's just been too long since you used a slipstick. Getting the
decimals right there *mattered*. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 16:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 15:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fellow Travellers in Colorado
Message-ID: <3CCC740B.21C858AD@premier.net>

I'm going to be at Ft. Carson, CO, for a couple of months as I train up
for my upcoming Sinai tour.  According to Eris' TML roster, there are
three TMLers (past or present) in Colorado (John Lambert in Colorado
Springs, and Steve Deemer and Robert Uhl in Denver).

Any others out there?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Sickness and the Political Control of Information
In-Reply-To: <001301c1ee93$5bbcfd40$4e7354d2@1338700057>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk>
 <000e01c1ee6a$4f48ce00$52200050@matt>
 <001301c1ee93$5bbcfd40$4e7354d2@1338700057>
Message-ID: <m3elgzfn0r.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Jeffrey Malone" <nparker1971@ozemail.com.au> writes:
> 
> The bottom line: Jump Sickness has more to do with protecting the
> Imperial body politic from destabilising uncontrolled information
> flows, than its alleged victims.

I must disagree.  The impression I get from the TNS bulletins is that
jump sickness is denied to exist, due to the additional costs of trade
it would cause, and that Long has proof that it does.  But then, none
of the canon I've to hand mentions it.  Perhaps in some other fragment
it is explained that it is a known risk?

I also don't think that the Imperium would be locking up folks who
misjump great distances.  First of all, canon implies that the risks
of misjump are known both in magnitude and in frequency.  Secondly,
people would surely mention their imprisonment, unless brain-wiped.
Thirdly, how likely is it for an entire ship to be afflicted at once?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The fact that we have bodies is the oldest joke there is.  --C.S. Lewis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:03:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:03:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
In-Reply-To: <146.da76e8b.29fd3d17@aol.com>
References: <146.da76e8b.29fd3d17@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3adrnfmzb.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Olegamer@aol.com writes:

Emacs, at least, thinks that you wrote HTML.  Anyone have better
information?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the people of
the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own
arms.                            --Samuel Adams, brewer and patriot

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <m31yczfmrp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>
> Again, you are completely off base with regards to how the analysis
> is being done. It's *not* matching individual frames against
> *anything*.  It's using multiple frames to derive enough detauils to
> *attempt* a match.
> 
> It *has* to. 

Well, it has to unless the authorities mandate that eveyone approach
cameras in such a manner as to make the frames be identical to those
in the database.

`Comrade, approach the camera face-forward and stand still for 12
seconds!'

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
...a language is just an dialect with an army and a navy.
                                --Paul Tomblin, in a.s.r.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:10:04 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <B8F16629.58CB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8F16629.58CB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3662bfmwb.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> I suppose so.  Just for the record, officers pay for their own
> uniforms and meals.

And, at least in the Navy, at least when my father was in, their cooks
as well.  The best at the time were reputed to be Phillipino: not
overly expensive, but with an amazing command of culinary technique.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own
good, in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of
theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it.        --John Stuart Mill

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> 
> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> time.

Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
having an estimated breakout.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
                                                 --Mojo Nixon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk> <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3CCC847F.2ABA2927@premier.net>


"Robert Uhl " wrote:
> 
> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >
> > On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> > misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> > misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> > time.
> 
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

Ah, but passing the normal maximum by any significant amount should
start to worry you, regardless of your pre-calculated jump time.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk> <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020429093423.A25777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
[...suspecting misjump ...]
> Even passing further is no big deal.

Once you've got to the 98th percentile, you'd be having dark
suspicions.  The problem is that if the jump duration is known rather
precisely beforehand, the time between "all's well" and "oh my god,
we've misjumped" is rather too short for mere misgivings.


>  Indeed, without having an idea how long _this particular jump_ will
> be, there's no way of having an estimated breakout.

Of course there's an estimated breakout time: within 10% of 168 hours.
By the time you've reached the 99th percentile of that, the posterior
probability of misjump has increased 100-fold, and starting to look
comparably likely to merely a long but successful jump.

In the 'known duration' case specified, the time interval between the
99th and 100th percentiles for successful jumps is at least two orders
of magnitude shorter -- not enough time for vague suspicions and
speculations throughout the crew.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 17:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Population Modelling
In-Reply-To: <00e801c1cbc7$eea362a0$67da883e@fabian>
Message-ID: <20428.160746.5z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

I was catching up on old posts, and this jumped out at me...

In mail you write:

> As a mathematical exercise, I worked out that, assuming a free movement of
> populations (a false assumption), everyone is descended from everyone as
> of 500 years ago. This is based on teh fact that teh number of ancestors
> doubles every generation, but the total population decreases as you go
> back in time. Working out when teh two numbers are equal is a simple
> exercise...

Actually, there's a hidden assumption in there that destroys the idea.

The number of ancestors doubles each generation back *only* if there
are no common ancestors. With the current "rule" that first cousins
can't marry, but second cousins can, you can have common ancestors 3 or
4 generations back (I can't recall exactly how "second cousin" is
defined). 

Anybody who has done any detailed family trees that go back very far
will run into branches that cross this way.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 19:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Sun Apr 28 18:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <m31yczfmrp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <005d01c1ef1e$95858f20$9307b286@Shane>

Robert wrote:
> Well, it has to unless the authorities mandate that eveyone approach
> cameras in such a manner as to make the frames be identical to those
> in the database.
>
> `Comrade, approach the camera face-forward and stand still for 12
> seconds!'

You know, it strikes me that (barring Robert's suggestion above) this system
is stupidly easy to evade if you know where the cameras are, or even where
the cameras are likely to be.  Good luck to any system, automated or
otherwise, attempting to get a clear mugshot of someone who is trying not to
be recognized.  I'm not talking about pulling your jacket over your head, or
wearing a balaclava or anything silly like that.  Simply blowing your nose
on a handkerchief as you pass the camera; or looking down to brush something
off your shirt; or turning away to wave goodbye to someone.  There are
dozens of such stunts you can pull, and you can use a different one every
'checkpoint' you pass.  Maybe combine that with taking off your jacket
between checkpoints, and putting it back on after the next one to interfere
with the system identifying you by your clothes.

I think it comes back to the idea that a halfway intelligent criminal who
really doesn't want to be caught generally won't be caught.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- "And you're mo' smarter than the crooks on Miami Vice...
riiiight?"
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 19:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 28 18:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Population Modelling
In-Reply-To: <20428.160746.5z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <00e801c1cbc7$eea362a0$67da883e@fabian>
Message-ID: <3CCD4F3B.28144.D948ED@localhost>

On 28 Apr 2002 at 16:07, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> The number of ancestors doubles each generation back *only* if there
> are no common ancestors. With the current "rule" that first cousins
> can't marry, but second cousins can, you can have common ancestors 3 or
> 4 generations back (I can't recall exactly how "second cousin" is
> defined). 

Your second cousins are the children of your parents' first cousins.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 21:01:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 20:01:19 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
Message-ID: <3CCCB6E8.CF6883B@premier.net>

Yet another cruiser design from AuricTech, _Dido_ is primarily a killer
of smaller vessels, with 20 large NPAW linear bay weapons.

_Dido_, _Dido_ class Light Cruiser (FF&S v2)
Designed by AuricTech Shipyards

Statistics
Tons: 25000std ( SL Short Rnd Cylinder Hypersonic )
Dimensions: 125m x 62.1m x 62.1m
Volume: 350000m3
Mass (L/C): 324434t/311263t
Maintenance Points: 9989
Cargo: 200std (0/8 /Hdl:8x50ton)
Crew: 437/585
Cost: 29263.8 Mcr
Tech Level: 15
Size: 10

Electronics
Controls: Holographic, Standard automation. 24xFltComp (CM:0.2 CP:5.0).
4xFibComp
(CM:0.2 CP:5.0). Terrain following sensors (TF:570, NOE:190). Bridge.
Communications: 4xRadio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 8xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
1xMeson (1,000AU,
5MW).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (14 [50mkm], 0.05MW). 1xAEMS (12.5 [5mkm] LP, 50MW).
12xLIDAR
(15 [2mkm], 2.5MW).
ECM: 1xRadio Jammer (1,000AU, 0.4MW). 1xDecp. Jammer (12, 1.25MW).
1xPas. Jammer
(15, 0.63MW).
Signatures: Vis:-0.5, IR:0 (0 at 50801MW, -0.5 at 8100MW), Act:0, Neu:0,
Grav:2 (Military Black coating, Advanced IR masking, 1 level Stealth,
Neutrino masking)

Weaponry
1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750]
(LR)
20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
(LR)
20 x 15 Mj Quad Laser Turret (+6) 1/4-4-4-4 [4,800/10-10-10-10] (LR)
12xMissile Auto 1/8 ( /Mag:39 /MFD:500,000km) w/40 Cmd DL 1d6/2 6.0G12
1000AU

Additional Fire Control
2xBeam Master Fire Directors (0MW 500,000km)
2xMissile Master Fire Directors (0MW 500,000km)

Performance
4    Jump (2500std/pc fuel)
6/6.2     Maneuver (/Thruster:48265MW)
No Contra-grav
5000kph/5000kph Atmosphere (/Crus:3750kph/3750kph)
6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
10578.9   Fuel (/Scoop:3 /Purif:30,148MW)
580/20/150 Accomodations (Small stateroom/Large stateroom/Emergency Low
berth)
15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations for 600
crew)
6    G-Comp
18   Sandcasters ( /AV:70 /Cans:20)
715  Damper Screen (169MW)
715  Meson Screen (319.516MW)
100 [715] Armor, 52 Structure

Features
250xAirlock
4xDocking Umbilical
1xElectronic Shop (6std ea.)  
1xMachine Shop (10std ea.)    
4xSickbay (8std ea.)     
1xShip's locker (12.5std ea.)
10xArmory (2.14std ea.) (Capacity: 60 each)
6xGym (2.5std ea.)
3xLounge(44std ea.)
1xCIC(44std ea.)
4xOrdinary Galley (Cap:150)
4xFull Galley (Cap:150)       

Small Craft
1xSpacHgr (30std, 1 hatches)
3xDockRing (30std)       

Backups
Sensors: 2xPEMS (13.5 [16mkm]). 2xAEMS (12 [1.6mkm] LP). 24xLIDAR (14.5
[500kkm]).

Power & Fuel: Fusion (1000MW).
Crew Details
7 x Maneuver. 1 x Electronics. 326 x Engineer. 23 x Maintenance. 65 x
Gunner. 12 x Screen. 8 x Flight. 40 x Troops. 80 x Command. 19 x
Steward. 4 x Medical.

The _Dido_-class light cruiser is expressly intended to operate against
multiple smaller foes.  Although _Dido_ mounts the well-proven 11.144 Gj
NPAW found on many smaller AuricTech cruiser designs, her primary
purpose is to carry 20 smaller, yet still potent, NPAWs into battle. 
One NPAW of this type is capable of engaging a destroyer on equal terms;
_Dido_ mounts twenty such weapons.  Twelve missile bays add to _Dido's_
offensive punch, while AuricTech's proven 15-Mj quad-mount laser turrets
provide both effective point defense against missiles and useful
anti-ship capability against smaller vessels.

As with most AuricTech cruiser designs, _Dido_ is capable of extended
independent operations.  She carries 26 weeks of rations for her design
crew, with enough galley capacity to enable her to mess twice her design
complement.  Under normal manning, each of _Dido's_ crewbeings enjoys an
individual Small or Large stateroom.  _Dido's_ habitability is enhanced
both by her large enlisted and officer lounges, each of which has an
adjacent ordinary galley as a snack bar, and by her physical fitness
centers, which exceed Imperial standards.  Her MultiFlow Corporation
Extended life support system is rated to support double occupancy
indefinitely.  Routine maintenance far from base is facilitated by
_Dido's_ workshops and cargo bays.

All these capabilities are not achieved at the expense of performance.
_Dido_ is capable of the 6G/J4 performance expected of Imperial Navy
fleet units.


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 23:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 22:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Singularities
Message-ID: <200204290551.g3T5p4G05098@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Singularities
...
>To quote from someone else:
...
>Even in the Gulf War of 1991 which saw a force of almost 
>400,000 hammered by unlimited conventional airpower for a 
>month and attacked by a large modern mobile armor force with 
>an enormous technological advantage in weaponry, the 
>estimated casualty figure for Iraqi forces equals 
>approximately only 7.1 percent."

  Given that all of the previous figures in that thesis were
annualized (eg, 9.0 per 1,000 per year for WW2), isn't it
strange that this one figure isn't? Especially as it would
contravene their conclusion if it were presented the same way.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 02:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Mon Apr 29 01:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
References: <16f.cbfbaed.29fb394e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CCD0A2F.1080406@gmx.net>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
>>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
>>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>>>
>officer."
>
>>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
>>
>TOS.
>
>Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
>people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
>doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.
>
And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
Bakula...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 03:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 29 02:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Opinions, please
Message-ID: <004a01c1ef5c$d0e67b40$66d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a couple of questions for the list... consider this market =
research of a sort.

1. The Traveller's Aide series: what would folks like to see? The =
planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is there something =
specific?

For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
there prospective writers?

2. Some time ago I began work on a Traveller novel set during the =
Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems likely that the =
Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in a "Golden Age" =
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a couple of questions for the =
list...=20
consider this market research of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. The Traveller's Aide series: what =
would folks=20
like to see? The planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is =
there=20
something specific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what about a series of CT =
adventures=20
set in the Marches, circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make =
it worth=20
doing? Are there prospective writers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Some time ago I began work on a =
Traveller novel=20
set during the Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems =
likely=20
that the Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in =
a&nbsp;"Golden Age"=20
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the=20
Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 04:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 29 03:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20429.005102.9p1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
>> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
>> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
>> time.
>
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
will suspecyt there's a misjump.

>
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
> live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
> always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
>                                                  --Mojo Nixon
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 04:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Mon Apr 29 03:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>

In mail (Digest, which is why I'm so far behind:-), "Matthew Bond" 
<mattgbond@ntlworld.com> said...

<SNIP>
Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in 
the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
</SNIP>

I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4% 
failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company creating 
the system, or the local Police force.

*I* am merely repeating it.

To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently 
'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a lake 
have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in prison 
for perjury (telling lies in court).
Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the 
prisons are too overcrowded"...

ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the 
*whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her 
mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.

Jeff.
"I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 06:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Mon Apr 29 05:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern]
Message-ID: <3CCCF3C7.28630.3F7A8E@localhost>

I picked up a book called "The Yard" by Michael S Sanders
it covers the construction of an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer
from the keel up by the Bath Iron Works, and various techniques and some 
interesting pictures and diagrams

which leads into the question of how starships are built

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 06:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 05:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (OT) George Alec Effinger
Message-ID: <20020429.082943.-324537.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Some of you may already know this, but for those who haven't, George Alec
Effinger has passed away (it's been a rough couple of weeks for SF...
Damon Knight passed away not too long ago).  SJG's 'Daily Illuminator'
has more info: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 07:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Mon Apr 29 06:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B90@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: 29 April 2002 09:51
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >> 
> >> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> >> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> >> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> >> time.
> >
> > Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that 
> jump duration
> > is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that 
> passing the
> > minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> > average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, 
> without having
> > an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> > having an estimated breakout.
> 
> No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
> 168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
> will suspecyt there's a misjump.

Well, theres also the possiblity that the Astrogator miscalculated the
duration... so once the calculated time has elapsed the figures would be
checked and double checked. This will take some time. Then there will be
speculation that an uncharted massive body has interrupted the jump
route, thus throwing the duration out, even then one you get to 185
hours misjump will be the likely answer.

Also, IIRC, Jump sickness is more frequent in Misjumps, with onset of
headaches, dizzyness and nausea within 2-3 days of Jump initiation. So
that is likely to be the first indication of misjump rather than the
calculated duration passing.

And on the subject of Jump Sickness, I thought that Jeffery Long was the
guy that was in a coma after being the only known survivor of EVA during
Jump, and thus unshielded exposure to the Jump bubble. Simple Jump
Sickness is an accepted medical condition that some part of the
population suffers from in Jump, and which is more prevalent in a
misjump (and being one of the early telltales of a misjump)

As for the Illustration of a Jump Time Elapsed Display, rather than a
Countdown to Jump emergence, this may be to facilitate the Jump Exit
Lottery on the ship for passengers and crew. The Astrogator and Captain
may know when the ship is expected to exit Jump, but no-one else
necessarily does...

Matt 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 08:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Apr 29 07:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
References: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3pu0ibmj0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> An ex-Politician is in prison for perjury (telling lies in court).

Given that the entire basis of our court system is people telling the
truth in court, I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 09:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (allensh)
Date: Mon Apr 29 08:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
In-Reply-To: <3CCD0A2F.1080406@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <20020429150301.82010.qmail@web13908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> >tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military
> vessel, its organization is 
> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category
> does not exist. STAR TREK 
> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman
> aboard the U.S.S. 
> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified
> astronaut, therefore an 
> >>>
> >officer."

This was true in the original series, but not in the
later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 09:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Apr 29 08:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425.170405.-125887.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020429151026.74367.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
could prescribe that for our good General?


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> > On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> > 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three
> bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of
> Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.
> 
> Turokan
> 
> ..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.  
> ---   -       -..   .. 
>  .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..  
> ...-   .   --..--     
>  .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-  
> .-.   .       -   .... 
>  .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---  
> ..-.       -   ....   . 
>      .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
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> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 10:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Mon Apr 29 09:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <l03010d14b8f328581e59@[206.224.92.67]>

A message from Warehouse 23 to Traveller fans:

>The details of ordering and availability for the Traveller Limited Edition
>Hardcover haven't been finalized yet.  We will make an announcement as soon
>as everything has been confirmed.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a collection of existing Traveller
>items.  It will be sold through normal distribution and you can get it at
>your friendly local game store, or through Warehouse 23.  Just to clear up
>some confusion: no, it isn't preorder only.
>
>If there's anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me
>here at orders@sjgames.com.

Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
the word out.

We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.

The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
through the normal FLGS channels.



Loren



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <l03010d14b8f328581e59@[206.224.92.67]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429101934.009ecc00@mindspring.com>

At 11:47 AM 4/29/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
>them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
>the word out.
>
>We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
>and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
>through the normal FLGS channels.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf 
shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429101934.009ecc00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEKLDMAA.tml@downport.com>

http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry

> I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Message-ID: <F273WORuXB3QvCzI3Jj000037f8@hotmail.com>

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Brilliant!  I love it."


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  Please have fun using it in your campaigns.  You can 
see from the GM-imposed hardware/software/manning requirements that it was a 
definite "fun quotient" tweak.

     "This should become part of canon, methinks."

     Nope, that's going way too far.  This is absolutely a MTU/YTU rule 
only.  Besides, I got a sneaking suspicion that many folks already have 
something like it in their TUs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Message-ID: <200204291255.AA4128904@caddocourt.com>

From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
>--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
>> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>> >>>officer."
>
>This was true in the original series, but not in the
>later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
>was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
>were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Again, TNG was also "officer-only" for its first couple of seasons.  And Colm Meany's character was clearly an officer (specifically a Lt).  It was only post-Rodenberry where they introduce enlisted personel and "redefined" Colm Meany's character into the enlisted O'Brien.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Donald McKinney)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with reprint of Double Adventures...
Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E011405E2@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>

Ok, I spilled a dark substance on page 1 of the "Stranded on Arden" adventure in my *NEW* reprints book.

Is it possible to get someone to send me a photocopy of pages 1 and 2 of the "Stranded on Arden" adventure?  Sigh...


DonM.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with reprint of Double Adventures...
Message-ID: <200204291920.FGU00108@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Donald McKinney says
>Ok, I spilled a dark substance on page 1 of the "Stranded on 
>Arden" adventure in my *NEW* reprints book.
>

Ah, the dreaded Coffee...
________________
NO! Sentence first, verdict after!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22737@USCHM203>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
>circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
>there prospective writers?

>2.(re-Traveller Novel)So; supposing we serialized it in =
>the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?

Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:00 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #454 - 15 msgs


Send TML mailing list submissions to
	tml@travellercentral.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	tml-request@travellercentral.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
	tml-admin@travellercentral.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Re: Star Trek (Robert Houghton)
   2. Opinions, please (MJ Dougherty)
   3. Re: Re: Piracy assumptions (Leonard Erickson)
   4. Re: Big Brother (Jeff Rowse)
   5. an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern] (shadowcat)
   6. (OT) George Alec Effinger (knightsky@juno.com)
   7. RE: Re: Piracy assumptions (Matthew Bond)
   8. Re: Re: Big Brother (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
   9. Re: Re: Star Trek (allensh)
  10. Re: RAH and libertarianism (Paul Walker)
  11. (no subject) (Loren Wiseman)
  12. Re: (no subject) (Douglas Berry)
  13. RE: (no subject) (Swordy)
  14. Re: Grote's Clan Ships (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
  15. Re: Re: Star Trek (Mike West)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:54:07 +1000
From: Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
>>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK

>>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>>>
>officer."
>
>>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
>>
>TOS.
>
>Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
>people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
>doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.
>
And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
Bakula...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:03:35 +0100
Subject: [TML] Opinions, please
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a couple of questions for the list... consider this market =
research of a sort.

1. The Traveller's Aide series: what would folks like to see? The =
planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is there something =
specific?

For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
there prospective writers?

2. Some time ago I began work on a Traveller novel set during the =
Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems likely that the =
Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in a "Golden Age" =
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a couple of questions for the =
list...=20
consider this market research of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. The Traveller's Aide series: what =
would folks=20
like to see? The planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is =
there=20
something specific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what about a series of CT =
adventures=20
set in the Marches, circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make =
it worth=20
doing? Are there prospective writers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Some time ago I began work on a =
Traveller novel=20
set during the Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems =
likely=20
that the Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in =
a&nbsp;"Golden Age"=20
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the=20
Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220--


--__--__--

Message: 3
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 00:51:02 PST
Organization: Shadownet
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
>> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
>> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
>> time.
>
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
will suspecyt there's a misjump.

>
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
> live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
> always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
>                                                  --Mojo Nixon
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


--__--__--

Message: 4
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:52:01 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail (Digest, which is why I'm so far behind:-), "Matthew Bond" 
<mattgbond@ntlworld.com> said...

<SNIP>
Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in

the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
</SNIP>

I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4% 
failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company creating 
the system, or the local Police force.

*I* am merely repeating it.

To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently 
'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a lake 
have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in prison

for perjury (telling lies in court).
Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the 
prisons are too overcrowded"...

ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the 
*whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her 
mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.

Jeff.
"I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:18:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern]
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I picked up a book called "The Yard" by Michael S Sanders
it covers the construction of an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer
from the keel up by the Bath Iron Works, and various techniques and some 
interesting pictures and diagrams

which leads into the question of how starships are built

--__--__--

Message: 6
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:29:40 -0400
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: [TML] (OT) George Alec Effinger
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Some of you may already know this, but for those who haven't, George Alec
Effinger has passed away (it's been a rough couple of weeks for SF...
Damon Knight passed away not too long ago).  SJG's 'Daily Illuminator'
has more info: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:41:44 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com



> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: 29 April 2002 09:51
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >> 
> >> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> >> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> >> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> >> time.
> >
> > Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that 
> jump duration
> > is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that 
> passing the
> > minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> > average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, 
> without having
> > an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> > having an estimated breakout.
> 
> No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
> 168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
> will suspecyt there's a misjump.

Well, theres also the possiblity that the Astrogator miscalculated the
duration... so once the calculated time has elapsed the figures would be
checked and double checked. This will take some time. Then there will be
speculation that an uncharted massive body has interrupted the jump
route, thus throwing the duration out, even then one you get to 185
hours misjump will be the likely answer.

Also, IIRC, Jump sickness is more frequent in Misjumps, with onset of
headaches, dizzyness and nausea within 2-3 days of Jump initiation. So
that is likely to be the first indication of misjump rather than the
calculated duration passing.

And on the subject of Jump Sickness, I thought that Jeffery Long was the
guy that was in a coma after being the only known survivor of EVA during
Jump, and thus unshielded exposure to the Jump bubble. Simple Jump
Sickness is an accepted medical condition that some part of the
population suffers from in Jump, and which is more prevalent in a
misjump (and being one of the early telltales of a misjump)

As for the Illustration of a Jump Time Elapsed Display, rather than a
Countdown to Jump emergence, this may be to facilitate the Jump Exit
Lottery on the ship for passengers and crew. The Astrogator and Captain
may know when the ship is expected to exit Jump, but no-one else
necessarily does...

Matt 

--__--__--

Message: 8
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Big Brother
From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: 29 Apr 2002 08:35:31 -0600
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> An ex-Politician is in prison for perjury (telling lies in court).

Given that the entire basis of our court system is people telling the
truth in court, I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

--__--__--

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> >tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military
> vessel, its organization is 
> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category
> does not exist. STAR TREK 
> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman
> aboard the U.S.S. 
> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified
> astronaut, therefore an 
> >>>
> >officer."

This was true in the original series, but not in the
later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
could prescribe that for our good General?


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> > On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> > 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three
> bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of
> Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.
> 
> Turokan
> 
> ..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.  
> ---   -       -..   .. 
>  .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..  
> ...-   .   --..--     
>  .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-  
> .-.   .       -   .... 
>  .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---  
> ..-.       -   ....   . 
>      .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:47:47 -0500
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

A message from Warehouse 23 to Traveller fans:

>The details of ordering and availability for the Traveller Limited Edition
>Hardcover haven't been finalized yet.  We will make an announcement as soon
>as everything has been confirmed.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a collection of existing Traveller
>items.  It will be sold through normal distribution and you can get it at
>your friendly local game store, or through Warehouse 23.  Just to clear up
>some confusion: no, it isn't preorder only.
>
>If there's anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me
>here at orders@sjgames.com.

Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
the word out.

We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.

The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
through the normal FLGS channels.



Loren



--__--__--

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:21:03 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 11:47 AM 4/29/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
>them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
>the word out.
>
>We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
>and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses
out.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
>through the normal FLGS channels.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf 
shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


--__--__--

Message: 13
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] (no subject)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:16 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry

> I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



--__--__--

Message: 14
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:40:58 +0000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Brilliant!  I love it."


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  Please have fun using it in your campaigns.  You can 
see from the GM-imposed hardware/software/manning requirements that it was a

definite "fun quotient" tweak.

     "This should become part of canon, methinks."

     Nope, that's going way too far.  This is absolutely a MTU/YTU rule 
only.  Besides, I got a sneaking suspicion that many folks already have 
something like it in their TUs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:55:27 -0500
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
>--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is

>> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR
TREK 
>> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>> >>>officer."
>
>This was true in the original series, but not in the
>later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
>was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
>were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Again, TNG was also "officer-only" for its first couple of seasons.  And
Colm Meany's character was clearly an officer (specifically a Lt).  It was
only post-Rodenberry where they introduce enlisted personel and "redefined"
Colm Meany's character into the enlisted O'Brien.

Mike West


--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:43:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:43:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Opinions, please (MJ Dougherty)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22738@USCHM203>


-----Original Message-----
From: Hurrel, Brian 
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:39 PM
To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
Subject: From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>


"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
>circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
>there prospective writers?

>2.(re-Traveller Novel)So; supposing we serialized it in =
>the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?

Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:00 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #454 - 15 msgs


Send TML mailing list submissions to
	tml@travellercentral.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	tml-request@travellercentral.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
	tml-admin@travellercentral.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Re: Star Trek (Robert Houghton)
   2. Opinions, please (MJ Dougherty)
   3. Re: Re: Piracy assumptions (Leonard Erickson)
   4. Re: Big Brother (Jeff Rowse)
   5. an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern] (shadowcat)
   6. (OT) George Alec Effinger (knightsky@juno.com)
   7. RE: Re: Piracy assumptions (Matthew Bond)
   8. Re: Re: Big Brother (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
   9. Re: Re: Star Trek (allensh)
  10. Re: RAH and libertarianism (Paul Walker)
  11. (no subject) (Loren Wiseman)
  12. Re: (no subject) (Douglas Berry)
  13. RE: (no subject) (Swordy)
  14. Re: Grote's Clan Ships (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
  15. Re: Re: Star Trek (Mike West)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:54:07 +1000
From: Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
>>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK

>>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>>>
>officer."
>
>>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
>>
>TOS.
>
>Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
>people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
>doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.
>
And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
Bakula...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:03:35 +0100
Subject: [TML] Opinions, please
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a couple of questions for the list... consider this market =
research of a sort.

1. The Traveller's Aide series: what would folks like to see? The =
planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is there something =
specific?

For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
there prospective writers?

2. Some time ago I began work on a Traveller novel set during the =
Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems likely that the =
Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in a "Golden Age" =
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a couple of questions for the =
list...=20
consider this market research of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. The Traveller's Aide series: what =
would folks=20
like to see? The planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is =
there=20
something specific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what about a series of CT =
adventures=20
set in the Marches, circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make =
it worth=20
doing? Are there prospective writers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Some time ago I began work on a =
Traveller novel=20
set during the Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems =
likely=20
that the Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in =
a&nbsp;"Golden Age"=20
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the=20
Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220--


--__--__--

Message: 3
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 00:51:02 PST
Organization: Shadownet
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
>> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
>> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
>> time.
>
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
will suspecyt there's a misjump.

>
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
> live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
> always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
>                                                  --Mojo Nixon
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


--__--__--

Message: 4
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:52:01 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail (Digest, which is why I'm so far behind:-), "Matthew Bond" 
<mattgbond@ntlworld.com> said...

<SNIP>
Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in

the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
</SNIP>

I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4% 
failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company creating 
the system, or the local Police force.

*I* am merely repeating it.

To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently 
'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a lake 
have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in prison

for perjury (telling lies in court).
Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the 
prisons are too overcrowded"...

ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the 
*whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her 
mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.

Jeff.
"I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:18:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern]
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I picked up a book called "The Yard" by Michael S Sanders
it covers the construction of an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer
from the keel up by the Bath Iron Works, and various techniques and some 
interesting pictures and diagrams

which leads into the question of how starships are built

--__--__--

Message: 6
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:29:40 -0400
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: [TML] (OT) George Alec Effinger
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Some of you may already know this, but for those who haven't, George Alec
Effinger has passed away (it's been a rough couple of weeks for SF...
Damon Knight passed away not too long ago).  SJG's 'Daily Illuminator'
has more info: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:41:44 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com



> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: 29 April 2002 09:51
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >> 
> >> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> >> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> >> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> >> time.
> >
> > Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that 
> jump duration
> > is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that 
> passing the
> > minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> > average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, 
> without having
> > an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> > having an estimated breakout.
> 
> No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
> 168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
> will suspecyt there's a misjump.

Well, theres also the possiblity that the Astrogator miscalculated the
duration... so once the calculated time has elapsed the figures would be
checked and double checked. This will take some time. Then there will be
speculation that an uncharted massive body has interrupted the jump
route, thus throwing the duration out, even then one you get to 185
hours misjump will be the likely answer.

Also, IIRC, Jump sickness is more frequent in Misjumps, with onset of
headaches, dizzyness and nausea within 2-3 days of Jump initiation. So
that is likely to be the first indication of misjump rather than the
calculated duration passing.

And on the subject of Jump Sickness, I thought that Jeffery Long was the
guy that was in a coma after being the only known survivor of EVA during
Jump, and thus unshielded exposure to the Jump bubble. Simple Jump
Sickness is an accepted medical condition that some part of the
population suffers from in Jump, and which is more prevalent in a
misjump (and being one of the early telltales of a misjump)

As for the Illustration of a Jump Time Elapsed Display, rather than a
Countdown to Jump emergence, this may be to facilitate the Jump Exit
Lottery on the ship for passengers and crew. The Astrogator and Captain
may know when the ship is expected to exit Jump, but no-one else
necessarily does...

Matt 

--__--__--

Message: 8
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Big Brother
From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: 29 Apr 2002 08:35:31 -0600
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> An ex-Politician is in prison for perjury (telling lies in court).

Given that the entire basis of our court system is people telling the
truth in court, I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

--__--__--

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> >tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military
> vessel, its organization is 
> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category
> does not exist. STAR TREK 
> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman
> aboard the U.S.S. 
> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified
> astronaut, therefore an 
> >>>
> >officer."

This was true in the original series, but not in the
later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
could prescribe that for our good General?


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> > On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> > 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three
> bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of
> Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.
> 
> Turokan
> 
> ..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.  
> ---   -       -..   .. 
>  .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..  
> ...-   .   --..--     
>  .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-  
> .-.   .       -   .... 
>  .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---  
> ..-.       -   ....   . 
>      .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:47:47 -0500
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

A message from Warehouse 23 to Traveller fans:

>The details of ordering and availability for the Traveller Limited Edition
>Hardcover haven't been finalized yet.  We will make an announcement as soon
>as everything has been confirmed.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a collection of existing Traveller
>items.  It will be sold through normal distribution and you can get it at
>your friendly local game store, or through Warehouse 23.  Just to clear up
>some confusion: no, it isn't preorder only.
>
>If there's anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me
>here at orders@sjgames.com.

Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
the word out.

We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.

The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
through the normal FLGS channels.



Loren



--__--__--

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:21:03 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 11:47 AM 4/29/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
>them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
>the word out.
>
>We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
>and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses
out.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
>through the normal FLGS channels.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf 
shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


--__--__--

Message: 13
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] (no subject)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:16 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry

> I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



--__--__--

Message: 14
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:40:58 +0000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Brilliant!  I love it."


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  Please have fun using it in your campaigns.  You can 
see from the GM-imposed hardware/software/manning requirements that it was a

definite "fun quotient" tweak.

     "This should become part of canon, methinks."

     Nope, that's going way too far.  This is absolutely a MTU/YTU rule 
only.  Besides, I got a sneaking suspicion that many folks already have 
something like it in their TUs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:55:27 -0500
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
>--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is

>> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR
TREK 
>> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>> >>>officer."
>
>This was true in the original series, but not in the
>later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
>was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
>were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Again, TNG was also "officer-only" for its first couple of seasons.  And
Colm Meany's character was clearly an officer (specifically a Lt).  It was
only post-Rodenberry where they introduce enlisted personel and "redefined"
Colm Meany's character into the enlisted O'Brien.

Mike West


--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
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End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:48:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:48:00 2002
Subject: [TML] From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22737@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>

At 03:38 PM 4/29/02 -0400, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
>"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
> >circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
> >there prospective writers?
>
> >2.(re-Traveller Novel)So; supposing we serialized it in =
> >the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?
>
>Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?
[big honking snip]

request #1:  Please do not include the entire digest for a one line reply.

request #1:  Please do not send 'styled' text to the list.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 14:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 13:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with reprint of Double Adventures...
Message-ID: <20020429.130950.-72731.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:20:50 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> Donald McKinney says
> >Ok, I spilled a dark substance on page 1 of the "Stranded on 
> >Arden" adventure in my *NEW* reprints book.
> >
> 
> Ah, the dreaded Coffee...
> ________________
> NO! Sentence first, verdict after!

Guilty!

On old books it's forgiveable, but never on new...

Make him walk the plank Captain, arrgh.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 14:16:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 13:16:11 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020429.130950.-72731.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Paul

On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
> on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
> year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
> could prescribe that for our good General?
> 
> 
> --- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
>  > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
>
 > Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> > and my disability
> > pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.

Ah, thanks Paul, it's such a nice jesture.

Perhaps I could stow aboard a freighter?

ObTrav:
So just how could you get off world in my case?
I can't work.
I need assistance.
My funds are tied to this world mandating that I stick around or I don't
get paid.

 Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 15:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Mon Apr 29 14:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
References: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ccd9cd0.1320581@post.demon.co.uk>

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:


>To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently=20
>'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a =
lake=20
>have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in =
prison=20
>for perjury (telling lies in court).
>Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the=20
>prisons are too overcrowded"...

What's your argument regarding the politician?  That since we all know
politicians are liars anyway, nobody should be surprised or offended
if they tell lies in court as well?  Even if the politician in
question deliberately falsified his testimony in order to win a libel
case and thereby secure 6- or7-figure financial damages from the other
party?  Seems to me that's a far worse crime than simple mugging or
car theft...

Also, if you can point me to any real case in any country in the world
where a person accused of rape did not stand trial because "the jails
are full", I'd like to hear it.  I know some countries have "prison
amnesties", and others have been known to extend schemes for parole
and early release, but that's for tried and convicted criminals who
have already served part of their sentence... and I doubt that the
scheme would extend to such a serious crime as rape.  But I'm willing
to be proved wrong if you have evidence.

ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
request.  He states that he is currently engaged in a messy divorce,
and it would be very helpful to his case if the players were willing
to swear that he was having dinner with them on a particular evening.
He offers a generous financial inducement to do this, and suggests to
the players that they should make a formal written deposition before a
lawyer then leave planet.  He promises to only use the deposition if
his wife's lawyers raise that particular evening in court.

If the players agree, then on their next visit to the world (which
might not be for a significant time), they discover that the
politician is still happily married, and won a multi-million credit
settlement in a libel case against a media organisation - thanks
entirely to their (false) evidence.  Do they:

a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
b)  Report the case to the authorities?
c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?

Of course, the problem is that their own involvement in the case was
criminal;  and the politician is a highly respected member of the
governing party and personal friend of the planet's leader.  The media
group that lost the case is keen for redress and could help them, but
it is also running scared of the politician's influence having been
burned once already.  Can the players prove their side of the story?
(Perhaps they can gain access to CCTV camera footage of the night in
question <g> ?)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 16:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 15:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Advanced Battle Armor
Message-ID: <f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39@aol.com>

--part1_f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Hi gang, while surfing the WWweb, I found mention of an article in JTAS 
#3, apparently by a Bob Barger (? I'm having a heck of a time reading my own 
scrawl), called Advanced Battle Armor (?).
   If someone has that issue handy, could they share the particulars?
   Thanks :)
  -Ken Murphy-

--part1_f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi gang, while surfing the WWweb, I found mention of an article in JTAS #3, apparently by a Bob Barger (? I'm having a heck of a time reading my own scrawl), called Advanced Battle Armor (?).
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;If someone has that issue handy, could they share the particulars?
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 17:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Star Trek
Message-ID: <15b.d29cb96.29ff2d05@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/29/2002 2:02:37 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
>Bakula...

You kids today . . .              :  )

I did this once before -- isn't in the archives someplace?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 18:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr 29 17:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3ccd9cd0.1320581@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000201c1efdf$ca99b120$0b01a8c0@duck>

> ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
> world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
> request.  He states that he is currently engaged in a messy divorce,
> and it would be very helpful to his case if the players were willing
> to swear that he was having dinner with them on a particular evening.
> He offers a generous financial inducement to do this, and suggests to
> the players that they should make a formal written deposition before a
> lawyer then leave planet.  He promises to only use the deposition if
> his wife's lawyers raise that particular evening in court.
> 
> If the players agree, then on their next visit to the world (which
> might not be for a significant time), they discover that the
> politician is still happily married, and won a multi-million credit
> settlement in a libel case against a media organisation - thanks
> entirely to their (false) evidence.  Do they:
> 
> a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
> b)  Report the case to the authorities?
> c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?
> 
> Of course, the problem is that their own involvement in the case was
> criminal;  and the politician is a highly respected member of the
> governing party and personal friend of the planet's leader.  The media
> group that lost the case is keen for redress and could help them, but
> it is also running scared of the politician's influence having been
> burned once already.  Can the players prove their side of the story?
> (Perhaps they can gain access to CCTV camera footage of the night in
> question <g> ?)

[I hate to use the whole thing for such a short answer, but I wanted to
keep the context.]

Considering the deal the players made in the first place, a sudden
attack of ethics would seem to be a bit out of place.  They willingly
lied and got paid for it.  Seems pretty bizarre that they would care
that the politician used it for different purposes.

Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 19:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 18:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <20020429.182302.-125801.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:41:39 -0500 "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
writes:
> > ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
> > world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
> > request.  
<snipage>
> > a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
> > b)  Report the case to the authorities?
> > c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?
> > 
> 
> Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
> now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?
> 
> Mike West

Though up front I'd agree and choose [a], if looking deeper I could
choose [c].

My assumption is:
1. The players are already involved in a blackmail scheme against the
politician's wife.
Why?
Money.
If they had scruples, they wouldn't have taken the credits in the first
place.

2. The politician received a huge settlement.
A or some of the players bent on greed may have spent their credits, and
now want more to keep quiet.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 20:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr 29 19:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <20020429.182302.-125801.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>

generalturokan@juno.com
> On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:41:39 -0500 "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
> writes:
> > > ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
> > > world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
> > > request.  
> <snipage>
> > > a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
> > > b)  Report the case to the authorities?
> > > c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?
> > > 
> > 
> > Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
> > now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?
> 
> Though up front I'd agree and choose [a], if looking deeper I could
> choose [c].
> 
> My assumption is:
> 1. The players are already involved in a blackmail scheme against the
> politician's wife.
> Why?
> Money.
> If they had scruples, they wouldn't have taken the credits in the first
> place.
> 
> 2. The politician received a huge settlement.
> A or some of the players bent on greed may have spent their credits, and
> now want more to keep quiet.

I have to admit that I did have the assumption that the politician was
continuing to be friendly to them.  If so, I still stick with [a].  If,
however, the politician becomes hostile for some reason, then I completely
agree that [c] is quite appropriate.

The problem is that if the players pick [c], they probably need to add
that planet to their list of places to avoid for a while.  If they chose
[a], the planet could quite possibly be a good destination, instead.

I do want to note that I think we both agree that [b] is quite pointless.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 20:42:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 19:42:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <20020429.182302.-125801.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020429224441.00e45840@buffnet.net>

Of course, were I that politician, I'd consider the fact that *all* of the
potential loose ends can be tied up neatly together, by exploding a bit of
cheap missile weaponry upon the ship...  (and it would look like piracy
too!)  At the very least, pay a bomber to bomb the ship through a cutout on
the grounds of "insurance"...

;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 21:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 20:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <20020429.203207.-125683.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 22:44:41 -0400 hal@buffnet.net writes:
> Of course, were I that politician, I'd consider the fact that *all* 
> of the
> potential loose ends can be tied up neatly together, by exploding a 
> bit of
> cheap missile weaponry upon the ship...  (and it would look like 
> piracy
> too!)  At the very least, pay a bomber to bomb the ship through a 
> cutout on
> the grounds of "insurance"...
> 
> ;)
> 

Ooooo, nice closing touch. The politician takes the lead.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 23:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr 29 22:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <20413.122049.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429160538.02a58ab0@mail.qrc.com>

At 08:59 PM 4/21/02, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
> > Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
> > Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system.
>
>All i am reporting is what the average user, the "plug & pray" type, have 
>told me in the shop.

In my humble opinion, this is the difference between someone in Traveller 
with computer skill, and someone who doesn't.  I assume that someone who is 
from a moderate tech or higher (TL-8+) background can use a computer for 
normal sorts of activities (word processing, looking up references, etc.) 
without computer skill, and without needing to make a roll to operate the 
computer.  On the other hand, "unusual" use of the computer - bypassing 
security restrictions, reading nonstandard files or media, finding 
information that was deliberately obscured, obscuring information that you 
don't want people to find, and that sort of thing are what Computer skill 
is for.

>That some of the Os is put on the disk in what I know as track and 
>sectors. I was told that the track and sectors for this information change 
>with the upgrades.

All operating systems (that I'm aware of) organize a disk into tracks and 
sectors (or cylinders, heads, and sectors which is basically the same 
thing).  For floppy disks, the newer operating systems have more options 
than the old ones, but all are "upward compatible" - the new operating 
system knows how to read the older format.  If you have an old floppy, as 
long as the media hasn't physically degraded, Windows XP can read a disk 
formatted and written from an old 286-based Windows 2 machine.  And Office 
XP can read the Word for Windows file format.

>Therefore this is a reason why newer systems have trouble or can't read
>the older disks.

The usual reason isn't incompatibility but media degradation.  Floppy disks 
were never intended for archival storage of data; they're better than many 
forms of magnetic tape, but aren't going to last forever.  When I worked 
for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, we had a tape 
library that contained satellite data for US weather satellites (going back 
to the first data sent from the very first, in the 1950's).  As part of the 
maintenance of the library, tapes were pulled for check reads (once every 5 
or 10 years, I believe) and any that had begun to degrade were re-recorded 
onto new media.

If you've got computer data that you want to store for the long haul, right 
now the best bet is to burn it to a CD-ROM.  Unlike floppies, the CD-ROM 
file format is a world-wide standard published by the International 
Standards Organization.  It works a lot like I envisioned Traveller media 
standards.  There is a published standard that is available to anyone who 
cares to read it that sets out exactly what is required to read (or write) 
audio or data to a CD-ROM - from the composition of the media all the way 
through the organization of the data.  Any computer that supports CD-ROM 
drives, can read an ISO disk.  Some - mainly those with Microsoft operating 
systems - can write other formats as well; those disks only work with 
compatible Microsoft operating systems.

>I would think that there are Imperial standards for navigation. Set 
>probably by the ISS.

I'd say that the IISS (and in particular the Imperial Grand Survey) has a 
standard format for navigational data, and probably a small number of 
different media that they support.  Thus, there may be thousands of 
different manufacturers of starship avionics in the Imperium, and thousands 
more software houses that write navigational software.  But they can all 
read IISS navigational data, and they all come equipped with an Imperial 
data reader that can read at least one of the media types that the IISS 
supports.

The same goes for basic data transfer of other types.  The IISS (in this 
case via the Express Boat network) has a set of standard formats and media 
types for messages: text, audio, still image, video, holo, and probably a 
couple of other formats for data that is commonly transferred over the 
Xboat network.  A good model for this is the venerable GIF format for 
pictures - it was promulgated by Compuserve, back in the day, much the same 
way that the Xboat system would promulgate standard data formats in the 
Imperium.  Even though Compuserve is now gone, the GIF format still endures 
- and almost any computer can read it.

> > The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
> > either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
> > to import and export files in those formats.
>
>In Traveller, on frontiere worlds that are doing their own thing. This 
>could grow into a sense of "National" pride. Or the thought of being 
>"forced" into
>something.

IMTU, this sort of compatibility isn't forced on manufacturers by 
legislation.  The standards are made available by the IISS (for free or a 
very nominal price) to anyone who asks for them, and don't incorporate any 
proprietary technology or techniques - so that anyone who reads and 
understands the standard can build hardware or software that's 
compatible.  There's no legal requirement that anyone do so ... BUT there's 
also a strong disincentive in the market.  If two computers are available, 
both of which can read both the "local" formats and media, but only one of 
which can talk to Imperially-based navigation, news, and Xboat traffic 
systems, which one will eventually win in the market place?  Particularly 
if there is no significant cost difference?  There may well be local file 
and media formats - but sooner or later, everyone will be able to read the 
Imperial formats one way or another.

However, this is an on-going process: worlds that recently developed the 
technology, or were recently incorporated into the Imperial interstellar 
economy, are likely to be in transition, with the market forces still 
sorting things out.


>  Still I suspect that there is something going on in the
>computer line. Where the files are sent say from the x-boat to panet and
>revers. Where it is translated to the usable format for the receptor of
>the information.
>
> > Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
> > equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
> > finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice.
>
>  Myself, I am working on converting PET to geoWrite 2.1 then converting
>the final output to Ascii for upload to the places I write for through the
>Inet. I can do the revese and prefere to do all my writing in GeoWrite 2.1
>Takes just a few minutes to convert back and forth. Perhaps that is a
>thought for the Imperial mail at least. Though expanded for images and
>text for the local systems.
>
>BCNU
>
>--
>  *****
>******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
>**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
>**            Chancellor & Editor for
>**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
>******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
>  *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 00:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 29 23:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3ccd9cd0.1320581@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20429.214428.7c5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Also, if you can point me to any real case in any country in the world
> where a person accused of rape did not stand trial because "the jails
> are full", I'd like to hear it.  I know some countries have "prison
> amnesties", and others have been known to extend schemes for parole
> and early release, but that's for tried and convicted criminals who
> have already served part of their sentence... and I doubt that the
> scheme would extend to such a serious crime as rape.  But I'm willing
> to be proved wrong if you have evidence.

The local jails are having to release a *lot* of folks *before* trial
and hope they show up for trial due to the need to have space available
if there are riots this May Day.

There *are* rules for who gets released bnased on some sort of "points"
assigned at booking.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 01:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 30 00:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
Message-ID: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

This has become something of a TML tradition.  Every April 30, someone posts
this to the TML. This time, it's me.

##########

This battle took place on the 30th of April 1863, during the campaign of
Mexico. It is celebrated each year, on the anniversary of this date, by all
the regiments of the French Foreign Legion.

History: 

The French Army was besieging Puebla.

The mission of the Legion was to ensure the movement and safety of the
convoys, over an 80 mile distance. On the 29th of April 1863, Colonel
Jeanningros was informed that an important convoy was on its way to Puebla,
with a load of 3 million francs, and material and munitions for the seige.
Captain Danjou, his quartermaster, decided to send a company to escort the
convoy. The 3rd company of the Foreign Regiment was assigned to this
mission, but had no officers available. So Captain Danjou, himself, took the
command and 2nd lieutenants Maudet, company guide, and Vilain, the
paymaster, joined him voluntarily.

On the 30th of April, at 1 a.m., the 3rd company was on its way, with its 3
officers and 62 men. At 7 a.m., after a 15 mile march, it stopped at Palo
Verde in order to get some rest. At this very moment, the enemy showed up
and the battle began. Captain Danjou made the company take up a square
formation and, even though retreating, he victoriously drove back several
cavalry charges, inflicting the first heavy losses on the enemy .

By the inn of Camerone, a large building with a courtyard protected by a
wall 3 meters high, Danjou decided to stay, in order to keep the enemy and
so delay for as long as possible, any attacks on the convoy.

While the legionnaires were rapidly setting up the defense of the inn, a
Mexican officer demanded that Captain Danjou surrender, pointing out the
fact that the Mexican Army was greatly superior in number.

Danjou's answer was: "We have munitions. We will not surrender." Then, he
swore to fight to the death and made his men swear the same. It was 10 a.m.
Until 6 p.m., these 60 men who had had nothing to eat or drink since the day
before, in spite of the extreme heat, of the thirst and hunger, resisted
against 2,000 Mexicans: 800 cavalry and 1,200 infantry.

At noon, Captain Danjou was shot in the chest and died. At 2 p.m., 2nd
lieutenant Vilain was shot in the head. About this time, the Mexican colonel
succeeded in setting the inn on fire.

In spite of the heat and the smoke, the legionnaires resisted, but many of
them were killed or injured. By 5 p.m., only 12 men could still fight with
2nd lieutenant Maudet. At this time, the Mexican colonel gathered his
soldiers and told them what disgrace it would be if they were unable to
defeat such a small number of men. The Mexicans were about to give the
general assault through holes opened in the walls of the courtyard, but
Colonel Milan, who had previously asked 2nd lieutenant Maudet to surrender,
once again gave him the opportunity to. Maudet scornfully refused.

The final charge was given. Soon, only 5 men were left around Maudet;
Corporal Maine, legionnaires Catteau, Wensel, Constantin and Leonard. Each
had only one bullet left. In a corner of the courtyard, their back against
the wall, still facing the enemy, they fixed bayonets. When the signal was
given, they opened fire and fought with their bayonets. 2nd lieutenant
Maudet and 2 legionnaires fell, mortally wounded. Maine and his 2 remaining
companions were about to be slaughtered when a Mexican officer saved them.
He shouted: "Surrender"!

"We will only if you promise to allow us to carry and care for our injured
men and if you leave us our guns".

"Nothing can be refused to men like you"!, answered the officer.

Captain Danjou's men had kept their promise; for 11 hours, they had resisted
2,000 enemy troops. They had killed 300 of them and had injured as many.
Their sacrifice had saved the convoy and they had fulfilled their mission.

Emperor Napoleon the 3rd decided that the name of Camerone would be written
on the flag of the Foreign Regiment and the names of Danjou, Vilain and
Maudet would be engraved in golden letters on the walls of the Invalides, in
Paris. 

Moreover, a monument was built in 1892, at the very place of the fight. The
following inscription can be read there :

HERE, THEY WERE LESS THAN SIXTY
AGAINST A WHOLE ARMY
ITS MASS CRUSHED THEM
BUT LIFE RATHER THAN COURAGE
ABANDONED THESE FRENCH SOLDIERS
THE 30TH OF APRIL 1863.
TO THEIR MEMORY THE NATION BUILT THIS MONUMENT.

Since then, when Mexican troops pass by the monument, they present arms.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 03:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 02:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Seems to me that the TML is very quiet right now... I was getting hundreds
of posts a couple of weeks back.

Anyway, here's how things stand here:

Traveller's Aide #1 is out, #2 is in layout. We have drafts for 3-5 more due
in over the next few days. Depending what order they come in, the next
volumes will include a sourcebook on ground vehicles, a ready-NPC book and
an adventure. All CT compatible as well as T20, as usual.

Question is, what do folks want?

All our materials will be T20 compatible - that's a necessity - but we have
the leeway to support CT and the entire Traveller timeline. That means: CT
adventures set in the Marches or the Rim, major sourcebooks on.... whatever.
We're open to suggestions. Tell us what you want from the product line, and
we'll see what we can do....

Regards

MJD







From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 03:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 02:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <01af01c1f02a$4016c010$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Comments are invited...

Some time ago Marc and I began work on a Traveller/naval SF novel. It had a
different title back then but now it's called "The Last Hurrah". Set in the
Interstellar Wars, it was going to be the Traveller Novel, but it seems more
sensible to set a print novel in the "current" Traveller universe. That
leaves Last Hurrah as a bit of an orphan.

Now, what I'm thinking of doing is serializing it as part of the Quiklink
line (but separate from the Traveller's Aide series), as a series of PDFs of
LBB size (say 20,000 words each).

Consider this market research; I need to know if it's worth editing,
reformatting and such like before doing it (very busy right now, as you
might guess).

One note: Marc hasn't got time to work on this; although he co-authored the
early chapters (and had a LOT of creative input), this is not the great Marc
Miller novel. I don't want to mislead anyone on that score.

But anyway: The Last Hurrah is about a band of Terran naval officers during
the Interstellar Wars. I don't want to give much more away than that, but I
might be willing to post the Prologue on the Quiklink site....








Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 04:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 03:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Reviews
Message-ID: <01d301c1f02e$1765e480$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Here's an offer for you...

We're looking for reviewers... and we've got bribes.

We're offering $25 worth of Quiklink Products (*anything* Quiklink sells) to
the first three reviewers to post their comments to the TML.

Here's how it works:

If you're interested, mail me direct. We'll give you a free copy of
Traveller's Aide #1. Once your review is posted, you can cash in your Cr25
for anything Quiklink has to offer.

There are a couple of requirements though:

1. the review must be longer than "it sucks" or even "it sets off
decompression alarms"
2. we'd like to be able to repost the review elsewhere as needed

If you're interested, let me know ASAP.




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 04:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 03:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020316084747.B31496@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20430.013319.6P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Another oldie getting replied to.

In mail you write:

> Daniel Tackett wrote:
>
>> > to (as I recall) *50* times the mass. 
>
>> I hate to butt in, but out of curiosity. Could a gas
>> giant that large be skimmed?
>
> Not a chance, unless your tech greatly exceeds Traveller levels.
> Either you skim at orbital velocities, which are huge and hence you
> get *really hot*, or not, in which case you immediately fall due to
> insufficient thrust.
>
>
>> I find it hard to believe that a gas giant of any size
>> could be skimmed considering the pull of gravity.
>
> In Traveller, some ships could probably cope with up to 3 Jupiter
> masses.  Specialised unmanned skimming 'missiles' could cope with up
> to about 10.

Don't forget that gas giants more massive than Jupiter will be
*smaller*. Which means that gravity at "skimming altitude" will be even
stronger than the simple mass increase would indicate.

Any of the astronomers on the list have even a *rough* formula or table
for the way gas giant diameter varies with mass?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
In-Reply-To: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>

At 10:13 AM 4/30/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>Seems to me that the TML is very quiet right now... I was getting hundreds
>of posts a couple of weeks back.
>Anyway, here's how things stand here:
>Traveller's Aide #1 is out, #2 is in layout. We have drafts for 3-5 more due
>in over the next few days. Depending what order they come in, the next
>volumes will include a sourcebook on ground vehicles, a ready-NPC book and
>an adventure. All CT compatible as well as T20, as usual.
>Question is, what do folks want?
>All our materials will be T20 compatible - that's a necessity - but we have
>the leeway to support CT and the entire Traveller timeline. That means: CT
>adventures set in the Marches or the Rim, major sourcebooks on.... whatever.
>We're open to suggestions. Tell us what you want from the product line, and
>we'll see what we can do....

I really like the CT compatibility.  I'm in several PBEMs that use CT.

Hmm...the Marches are really nice, but how about some RIM and Reavers' Deep 
material first.
Lots of stuff out already for the Marches.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine.
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020429.130950.-72731.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020430121047.21439.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

You do lots of volunteer data entry for the TAS and
hope to get paid with a free membership, then you only
need to scrape enough money together to eat.  TAS
gives you a high passage per month, plus lodging.  Of
course, you may be stuck somewhere undesireable for a
month until you get your next HiPsg.

Paul


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> ObTrav:
> So just how could you get off world in my case?
> I can't work.
> I need assistance.
> My funds are tied to this world mandating that I
> stick around or I don't
> get paid.
> 
>  Turokan



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <3cce7ff8.11067789@post.demon.co.uk>

"Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com> writes:

>I have to admit that I did have the assumption that the politician was
>continuing to be friendly to them.  If so, I still stick with [a].  If,
>however, the politician becomes hostile for some reason, then I =
completely
>agree that [c] is quite appropriate.

Actually, my assumption was that the politician had pretty much
forgotten their existence - they were off-worlders who were useful to
him for a while, got paid off and left town.
>
>The problem is that if the players pick [c], they probably need to add
>that planet to their list of places to avoid for a while.  If they chose
>[a], the planet could quite possibly be a good destination, instead.
>
>I do want to note that I think we both agree that [b] is quite =
pointless.

In the real-life situation this is based on, the person giving the
politician the original alibi chose (b).  Go figure...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <025b01c1f042$9094c060$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> I really like the CT compatibility.  I'm in several PBEMs that use CT.
>
> Hmm...the Marches are really nice, but how about some RIM and Reavers'
Deep
> material first.
> Lots of stuff out already for the Marches.

Sounds cool. Anyone care to write some?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 07:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Apr 30 06:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <F218qk0qcITzSOFI3Jz00003ef4@hotmail.com>

OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?


>From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] (no subject)
>Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:16 -0400
>
>http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
>
> > I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> > shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!
>
>



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 30 06:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <F218qk0qcITzSOFI3Jz00003ef4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCELIDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Ummm.... Avery!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Andrew MacLintock
>
> OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?
>
> >From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
> >
> >http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> >
> > > I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> > > shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 07:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 06:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
In-Reply-To: <025b01c1f042$9094c060$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430094632.00b85cb0@urbin.net>

At 01:28 PM 4/30/02 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > I really like the CT compatibility.  I'm in several PBEMs that use CT.
> > Hmm...the Marches are really nice, but how about some RIM and Reavers'
>Deep
> > material first.
> > Lots of stuff out already for the Marches.
>Sounds cool. Anyone care to write some?

There was a lot of material written for Reavers' Deep by the TNE Pocket group.
The Deep was the domain of the Keith Brothers, and we had permission from 
them to update for TNE.

Some members of that group (like myself) are still on the TML.
Material from there could be published pretty much 'as is' for TNE.

For other era'/timelines, it could be modified.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 08:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 07:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020430094632.00b85cb0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <02a701c1f050$eed3c370$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> There was a lot of material written for Reavers' Deep by the TNE Pocket
group.
> The Deep was the domain of the Keith Brothers, and we had permission from
> them to update for TNE.
>
> Some members of that group (like myself) are still on the TML.
> Material from there could be published pretty much 'as is' for TNE.
>
> For other era'/timelines, it could be modified.
>

I think I'd like to see this.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 08:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue Apr 30 07:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (sorta OT) Fw: [FT] Naval Manpower
Message-ID: <006a01c1f04d$29923400$1f9e15ac@warrior>

I think you guys can figure out the obtrav for this one :)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Donogh McCarthy" <donoghmc@hotmail.com>
To: <gzg@firedrake.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:15 AM
Subject: [FT] Naval Manpower


>
>
> Interesting article on Northrops new naval designs
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5236-2002Apr29.html
>
> In relation to the new Destroyer Class design it states:
>
> "Under the plan, sailors' standard of living also would be drastically
> improved. For example, three-tier bunk beds would be replaced with
> staterooms shared by as many as three sailors and outfitted with computers
> and Internet connections. Crew sizes would drop from 300 to 125, then
> eventually to 95. "It allows the Navy to free up a lot of resources,"
> [defense analyst Jay] Korman said.
>
> Questions arising from this:
>
> 1. What kind of % of total personnel is there is each area of operations
on
> board a military naval vessel?
>
> 2. Presumably there as some tasks manpower is always needed for, that
can't
> be automated. What kind of tasks would these be, and what plausible sci-fi
> elements could lead to these being done by automation?
>
> 3. Also presumably you need 2-3 times the number of people needed to do
all
> the jobs. Does anyone see this aspect of crew requirments as ever being
able
> to change?
>
> 4. Would crew comfort, health etc. be a bigger concern in space, and would
> this lead to larger vessels or smaller crews; or shorter deployment times?
>
> Any thoughts?
> Donogh
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 08:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 07:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
In-Reply-To: <02a701c1f050$eed3c370$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020430094632.00b85cb0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430104838.00b887e0@urbin.net>

At 03:11 PM 4/30/02 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > There was a lot of material written for Reavers' Deep by the TNE Pocket
>group.
> > The Deep was the domain of the Keith Brothers, and we had permission from
> > them to update for TNE.
> > Some members of that group (like myself) are still on the TML.
> > Material from there could be published pretty much 'as is' for TNE.
> > For other era'/timelines, it could be modified.
>I think I'd like to see this.

I have the full archives squirrelled away somewhere, plus they are also 
online, somewhere, in compressed format.

For a start, take a look at some my stuff:

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/sa-sc.html>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/rangetruck.html>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/tl5-6_seaplane.html>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/Venice_data.htm>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
Message-ID: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>

--part1_15e.cff6a74.2a000c32_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Folks,

Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/

The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
product line.

For those of you who are JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in
Brubek's on Wednesday evening to discuss the changes and what they
mean for the fan community. There should be another chat next week if
you can't make the May 1 one. Both Loren and I subscribe to this mailing
list too, so we're available for any discussions.

Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be working with Loren and Marc
Miller on the continued development of the Traveller universe. Traveller has
been a favorite of mine for over twenty years, so the chance to contribute in
this fashion is very gratifying.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_15e.cff6a74.2a000c32_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Folks,
<BR>
<BR>Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:
<BR>
<BR>http://www.sjgames.com/ill/
<BR>
<BR>The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
<BR>Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
<BR>will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
<BR>product line.
<BR>
<BR>For those of you who are JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in
<BR>Brubek's on Wednesday evening to discuss the changes and what they
<BR>mean for the fan community. There should be another chat next week if
<BR>you can't make the May 1 one. Both Loren and I subscribe to this mailing
<BR>list too, so we're available for any discussions.
<BR>
<BR>Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be working with Loren and Marc
<BR>Miller on the continued development of the Traveller universe. Traveller has
<BR>been a favorite of mine for over twenty years, so the chance to contribute in
<BR>this fashion is very gratifying.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_15e.cff6a74.2a000c32_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Thanks!
Message-ID: <l03010d06b8f46090bf4e@[206.224.92.67]>

As I do every Quarter, I would like to thank the gentlesophonts on the TML
for ordering books and stuff from Amazon.com through the link on my web
page.

For those who don't know, I get a 5% bounty on almost anything you order
provided you use the button on

http://www.lorenwiseman.com

Scroll down, hit the button (which will take you to Amazon) and then order
normally. It doesn't cost you anything extra (except a little time), and
you will help subsidize my reading habit. If you are going to buy something
through Amazon anyway, why not toss me a little something extra?

LKW



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
References: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02ed01c1f05a$50cf4b90$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_02EA_01C1F062.9FF0E370
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to=20
Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and=20
will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the=20
product line.=20

For those of you who are JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in=20
Brubek's on Wednesday evening to discuss the changes and what they=20
mean for the fan community. There should be another chat next week if=20
you can't make the May 1 one. Both Loren and I subscribe to this mailing =

list too, so we're available for any discussions.=20

Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be working with Loren and Marc =

Miller on the continued development of the Traveller universe. Traveller =
has=20
been a favorite of mine for over twenty years, so the chance to =
contribute in=20
this fashion is very gratifying.=20



***** Stands up and cheers ******

That's great. Not only good guys at the helm but it shows a commitment =
to the GT line at SJG.

Okay, back to work now,,,,

Regards

MJD

------=_NextPart_000_02EA_01C1F062.9FF0E370
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>The executive summary =
is that Loren=20
Wiseman is being promoted to <BR>Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. =
I've=20
been named Line Editor and <BR>will be assisting Loren with planning and =

day-to-day management of the <BR>product line. <BR><BR>For those of you =
who are=20
JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in <BR>Brubek's on Wednesday =
evening=20
to discuss the changes and what they <BR>mean for the fan community. =
There=20
should be another chat next week if <BR>you can't make the May 1 one. =
Both Loren=20
and I subscribe to this mailing <BR>list too, so we're available for any =

discussions. <BR><BR>Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be =
working with=20
Loren and Marc <BR>Miller on the continued development of the Traveller=20
universe. Traveller has <BR>been a favorite of mine for over twenty =
years, so=20
the chance to contribute in <BR>this fashion is very gratifying.=20
<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>***** Stands up and =
cheers=20
******</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>That's great. Not only =
good guys at=20
the helm but it shows a commitment to the GT line at =
SJG.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>Okay, back to work=20
now,,,,</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2>Regards</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT=20
size=3D2>MJD</DIV></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_02EA_01C1F062.9FF0E370--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
In-Reply-To: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020430083905.009f8430@mindspring.com>

At 12:27 AM 4/30/02 -0700, you wrote:
>HERE, THEY WERE LESS THAN SIXTY
>AGAINST A WHOLE ARMY
>ITS MASS CRUSHED THEM
>BUT LIFE RATHER THAN COURAGE
>ABANDONED THESE FRENCH SOLDIERS
>THE 30TH OF APRIL 1863.
>TO THEIR MEMORY THE NATION BUILT THIS MONUMENT.

We used to have this read to us in the Army.  Someday, I want to visit the 
monument.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML Haiku
Message-ID: <200204301610.FII07851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

This one is a "generic combat", but I'm sure some of you have 
ObTrav haiku you've thought of.  They don't have to be combat 
oriented, either

Red streak of tracers
Steady thump of machinegun
Splintering tree limbs
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:14:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:14:08 2002
Subject: [TML] More TML Haiku
Message-ID: <200204301613.FII08329@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ok, one more ObTrav

Sparkling laser beams
Tinny sound of suit alarm
Hissing air escapes
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] just one more
Message-ID: <200204301628.FIK01334@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

And for those of you standing on the surface of a gas giant's 
moon....

Gleaming arc of rings
Frozen nitrogen crunches
Boots leave my footprints
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:38:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:38:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <F12ZUr3CrJRxKZMqA4d00004f37@hotmail.com>

In mail, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> rightly points out that...

<SNIP>
...the entire basis of our court system is people telling the truth in 
court...
</SNIP>

That wasn't the point though.  The point was supposed to be a commentary on 
the British (In)Justice system.
If he had killed a six-year-old girl standing on a pavement (sidewalk) next 
to a pedestrian crossing whilst he was driving under the influence of 
alcohol, he would have been given a GB250 fine and a three month suspended 
sentence.
But because he (shock, horror) omitted to tell the *whole* truth and 
slightly 'bent' what truth he did tell in a libel case against a national 
newspaper, he gets a five year jail sentence.


<SNIP>
...I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.
</SNIP>

Make the punishment fit the crime.  The "gentleman" in question did not 
physically hurt anyone, or steal from them.  He was not a danger to the 
public.
If his lies had resulted in people being hurt then yes, jail him.  All this 
has done is make more people realise what a stupid bunch of incompetent 
jerks we have for judges in England.
Another example, a judge sentenced a young man (I think the charge was 
disturbing the peace - again, nobody suffered physically) to something like 
a GB1500 fine, and then refused to believe the kid was only getting 
something like GB100 a week in wages stacking shelves at the local 
supermarket.  The supermarket manager had to provide their salary and tax 
records before the judge would believe it...

Jeff.
"Take cover?  Why, he can't hit us from over th..."

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML Haiku
In-Reply-To: <200204301610.FII07851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020430093325.009e8330@mindspring.com>

At 12:10 PM 4/30/02 -0400, you wrote:
>This one is a "generic combat", but I'm sure some of you have
>ObTrav haiku you've thought of.  They don't have to be combat
>oriented, either

Traveller Mail List
Three hundred in the mail box
Reading all morning

Near-C rock flame again?
This argument never ends
Perhaps piracy?

Free trader jumping
Laughs at the laws of physics
Boring week in here

Bright career in Scouts
Hoping for my own Type S
3? Damn, I have died!

Sex and politics
Tend to dominate the list
Find ObTrav, stat!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:48:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:48:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <200204301644.FIK03907@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Jeff Rowse" says
>Make the punishment fit the crime.  The "gentleman" =
in =

>question did not physically hurt anyone, or steal from =

>them.  He was not a danger to the public.
>If his lies had resulted in=
 people being hurt then yes, jail =

>him.  All this has done is make more people realise what a =

>stupid bunch of incompetent jerks we have for judges in =

>England.
>Another example, a judge sentenced a young man (I think the =
=

>charge was disturbing the peace - again, nobody suffered =

>physically) to something like a GB=A31500 fine, and then =

>refused to believe the kid was only getting =

>something like GB=A3100 a week in wages stacking shelves at =

>the local supermarket.  The supermarket manager had to =

>provide their salary and tax records before the judge would =

>believe it...
>

Drunken killer walks
Perjurer gets jail sentence
=
And this is justice?

________________
Sunlight on windows
Office bu=
ildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 11:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 10:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
In-Reply-To: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
References: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200204301320030096.0DA6983B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
>Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
>will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
>product line.

Congratulations to the both of you! Traveller continues to be well=
 represented at SJG!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 11:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 30 10:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] More TML Haiku
Message-ID: <20020430173521.6110.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

Not the best Haiku, but while we were at the topic...

Haiku are very strange
SciFi can be even stranger yet
Together seems fit

TML is quiet
Haiku can save the day here
Reading to think on

Paper, pens, and die
Two D6 thank you very much
All we need for fun

Marc, Loren, et al
You built a play universe
Thank you much for Trav


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:16:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:16:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
Message-ID: <memo.996438@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Thank you for keeping this fine tradition alive.

They always say that 2 dates are important to the French Foreign Legion - 
1863 and 1664.

We have just heard, as is right and proper, about 1863.

And 1664? - it's printed on the side of every can of Kronenburg beer, a 
favourite beverage amongst Legionnaires :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:19:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:19:01 2002
Subject: [TML] TML- Travellers' Aide
Message-ID: <memo.996439@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Greetings dear hearts.

I would like to see: -

Equipment - NOT just weapons, but the useful everyday stuff that players 
always want to acquire as they plan the next job, and you end up quickly 
calculating Travelleresque prices and descriptions around everyday items.

Medical (and recreational) drugs properly developed. And some good 
illnesses which the drugs can be used to treat... :-)

Well-detailed planets to visit. 

A fully-detailed starport (ground port or up port...).

Shops and businesses - how often do your players say "I'm looking for a 
clothes shop or a coffee bar" and you have to make it up on the fly?

Just some thoughts...

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:23:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
Message-ID: <memo.996441@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
Hoo-yah!!!

Warmest congratulations and blessings for the future to both of you :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
Message-ID: <20020430184406.48777.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

Back in 97, when I was last in Trav, we were working
on THUDD.  Is THUDD still around?  If so, where is it
happening?  In the immortal words of #5, "Need more
input!"

Thanks for any info.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 13:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 12:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML- Travellers' Aide
In-Reply-To: <memo.996439@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430150810.00b84e80@urbin.net>

At 07:15 PM 4/30/02 +0100, Megan Robertson wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
>Greetings dear hearts.
>I would like to see: -
>Equipment - NOT just weapons, but the useful everyday stuff that players
>always want to acquire as they plan the next job, and you end up quickly
>calculating Travelleresque prices and descriptions around everyday items.

Ah yes...the standard kit collects.

Personal Computer & Personal Communications Units (Percomps & Percomms).
I like to combine the two into a single unit with multiple I/O interfaces 
starting at TL 8 and getting more feature rich and robust (and more 'shock 
resistant') as TLs rise.

Multitools: General, survival, electronic, etc.

Vacc suits and PLSS units at various TLs.  Showing the range between a TL A 
Rescue Ball and a TL F tailored (skin) vacc suit.

Field gear, survival gear, what the well dressed business soph on Regina is 
wearing this year.

Typical layout for a Naval Corpsman assigned to an Imperial Marine Rapid 
Response Force...

etc., etc.

>Medical (and recreational) drugs properly developed. And some good
>illnesses which the drugs can be used to treat... :-)
>
>Well-detailed planets to visit.
>
>A fully-detailed starport (ground port or up port...).
>
>Shops and businesses - how often do your players say "I'm looking for a
>clothes shop or a coffee bar" and you have to make it up on the fly?
>
>Just some thoughts...
>
>Hugs and kisses,
>
>Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
In-Reply-To: <20020430184406.48777.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CCEB33B.7146.D337F2@localhost>

Paul

As far as I know THUDD died shortly after GURPS Traveller came 
out and disputes about which design system to use started.  I am 
not sure of the details because I started lurking for the most part 
since G.T. came out.  Someone else might be able to help more.  


Tim

> Back in 97, when I was last in Trav, we were working
> on THUDD.  Is THUDD still around?  If so, where is it
> happening?  In the immortal words of #5, "Need more
> input!"
> 
> Thanks for any info.
> 
> Paul
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
In-Reply-To: <20020430184406.48777.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020198030.2060.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> Back in 97, when I was last in Trav, we were working
> on THUDD.  Is THUDD still around?

THUDDD died a long time ago; it looks like it went irregular in early 1998,
lost momentum, and seems to have died entirely by 2000.

There was a ship-building contest on JTAS, but it seems to be being pretty
unreliable too.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020430.132748.-162959.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Paul

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> You do lots of volunteer data entry for the TAS and
> hope to get paid with a free membership, then you only
> need to scrape enough money together to eat.  TAS
> gives you a high passage per month, plus lodging.  Of
> course, you may be stuck somewhere undesireable for a
> month until you get your next HiPsg.

Ah yes, my word. The old perverbial "volunteer data entry for the TAS "
routine. Of course I might starve before then. NO, WAIT! I can eat at
Chaplain Bari's soup kitchen, yeah, that's the ticket.

Now if TAS will just drop me off in NZ I'll be fine, cash in my high
passage each month, no problem.

Turokan

>  --- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> > ObTrav:
> > So just how could you get off world in my case?
> > I can't work.
> > I need assistance.
> > My funds are tied to this world mandating that I
> > stick around or I don't
> > get paid.
> > 
> >  Turokan
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
Message-ID: <200204302040.FIS03034@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net  says
>As far as I know THUDD died shortly after GURPS Traveller 
>came out and disputes about which design system to use 
>started.  I am not sure of the details because I started 
>lurking for the most part since G.T. came out.  Someone else 
>might be able to help more.  
>

Maybe we should start THUDD again, but this time, have 
different rule divisions.  That way, people compete in the 
rule sets they want to compete in, rather than having 
to "eat" a single rule set.

I've noticed that everyone has their own favorite, so there's 
no sense in limiting us to one rule set.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 15:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 14:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.141101.-161815.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

TML'ers

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> You do lots of volunteer data entry for the TAS and
> hope to get paid with a free membership. 

Speaking of data entry, or writing of anything I would appreciate it If
you all would kindly try this out. It's how I actually type.

Place your right hand in front of your keyboard, fingers facing left,
palm up.
Now stand up.
Keeping your index finger against the front edge of your keyboard, hand
relaxed, begin typing ONLY using your right thumb.
The other catch - don't move your arm muscles, just shift your weight,
and type from shoulder shifting.
To use the shift key I can get my left thumb to hold it
down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My head is also limp, my chins buried in my chest.

That's it folks.

Turokan

> --- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> > ObTrav:
> > So just how could you get off world in my case?
> > I can't work.
> > I need assistance.
> > My funds are tied to this world mandating that I
> > stick around or I don't
> > get paid.
> > 
> >  Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 15:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Apr 30 14:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
In-Reply-To: <20020430.141101.-161815.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020430.141101.-161815.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <m3k7qo2891.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Do you use any accessibility tools?  I understand that most systems
come with the ability to have `sticky' keys--that is, shift acts like
a soft caps lock, or the shift on a Palm.  Tap shift once, and it's on
for one character; tap it twice, and it's on for good; tap it a third
time and it's off.  The same applies to ctrl and alt, of course.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
...It [the Mexican dictatorship] has demanded us to deliver up our arms,
which are essential for our defence, the rightful property of freemen,
and formidable only to tyrannical governments...
          --Texas Declaration of Independence

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 15:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 14:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20430.013319.6P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020316084747.B31496@freeman.little-possums.net> <20430.013319.6P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020501074423.A30174@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Any of the astronomers on the list have even a *rough* formula or
> table for the way gas giant diameter varies with mass?

Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
dwarf mass.  Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
increasing temperatures.  Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.

It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <01c301c1f096$8feb55d0$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

We've had considerable response to our request for reviewers. The 3 bribe
packages are long gone, and we have several more potential reviewers.

If you replied and I haven't been in touch yet, nudge me, will you? It's
late and I may have missed some.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 16:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 15:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Line Editor Haikus
Message-ID: <01c401c1f097$3104f160$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


New game book is out
QuikLink needs publicity
Asked the List for help

Many replies came
People wanting freebie book
Mailbox is now full




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 17:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 16:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.160031.-125169.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Robert

On 30 Apr 2002 15:20:58 -0600 ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
writes:
> Do you use any accessibility tools?

No, no ones showed me how.

>  I understand that most systems
> come with the ability to have `sticky' keys--that is, shift acts 
> like
> a soft caps lock, or the shift on a Palm.  Tap shift once, and it's 
> on
> for one character; tap it twice, and it's on for good; tap it a 
> third
> time and it's off.  The same applies to ctrl and alt, of course.

I've seen info in passing, but never looked into it in depth.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Tue Apr 30 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Line Editor Haikus
References: <01c401c1f097$3104f160$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <004301c1f09c$cd426710$9307b286@Shane>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> New game book is out
> QuikLink needs publicity
> Asked the List for help
> 
> Many replies came
> People wanting freebie book
> Mailbox is now full

Don't look at me man
Marketing plug not in vain
I bought the darn thing!
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Please take this credit card away from me
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 17:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Apr 30 16:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
In-Reply-To: <20020430.160031.-125169.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020430.160031.-125169.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <m3wuuo927f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

generalturokan@juno.com writes:

>
> > Do you use any accessibility tools?
> 
> No, no one's showed me how.

You should def. ask around.  They can really make life easier when
typing's a chore.

> I've seen info in passing, but never looked into it in depth.

In Linux, one can simply change the key definitions from Control to
SControl, Alt to SAlt, Shift to SShift.  There's also Morseall
<http://morseall.org/>, which allows one to tap out morse code on a
mouse button to control a text shell.

On Macs & Windows, there's a control panel which gives one that sort
of option.

I imagine that using a mouse is Right Out for you.  You may wish to
investigate a command-line only interface, as that is meant to be used
straight from the keyboard, and won't expect a mouse movement at an
inconvenient time.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Every man, woman, and responsible child has a natural, fundamental,
and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right
(within the limits of the Non-Aggression Principle) to obtain, own,
and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon--handgun, shotgun, rifle,
machinegun, anything--any time, anywhere, without asking anyone's
permission.                                       --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
Message-ID: <bc.25d5fa44.2a008f10@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?

Marc's evil twin Morc

LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:26:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:26:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: News
Message-ID: <10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8@aol.com>

--part1_10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:

> >Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:
> >
> >http://www.sjgames.com/ill/
> >
> >The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
> >Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
> >will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
> >product line.
> 

And, of course, Jon beat me to it.

What he said.

LKW

--part1_10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time, tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;http://www.sjgames.com/ill/<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to<BR>
&gt;Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and<BR>
&gt;will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the<BR>
&gt;product line.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
And, of course, Jon beat me to it.<BR>
<BR>
What he said.<BR>
<BR>
LKW</FONT></HTML>

--part1_10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.172641.-125169.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Robert

On 30 Apr 2002 17:49:40 -0600 ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com writes:
>  >
> > > Do you use any accessibility tools?
> > 
> > No, no one's showed me how.
> 
> You should def. ask around.  They can really make life easier when
> typing's a chore.
>  
> On Macs & Windows, there's a control panel which gives one that sort
> of option.

I use Windows, I'll need to test it.

> I imagine that using a mouse is Right Out for you.  

No, on the contrary, the mouse I use best. That is - once I get my arm up
onto the desk. Copy and paste is my best action.

Thanks,

Now where'd I leave my grav-belt?

Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F86Dv60gxapzhad2VqK00006ba3@hotmail.com>

>From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>
>>Rupert Boleyn posted:
>>On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:48, wombat@premier.net wrote:
>>>Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my
>>>designs for _Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).
>>>Note that all three of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry
>>>PAW spinal mounts; I've never been a big fan of meson guns.
>>>Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of meson
>>>guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that ecological
>>>niche.
>>
>>I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
>>really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.
>
>First of all, thank you to all of those who replied. Patrik, I'm
>going to mine your site this evening for ideas! Your "Recurrent
>Glory"-class is positively stunning.

<blushes>

>As for meson guns..yeah, I never liked 'em. Never, that is, until
>I saw Patrik's website. How about a 406 Gj Meson Spinal mount that
>can punch through a cruiser's meson screen (and armor) at Long
>distance?

To the best of my knowledge the effectiveness of Meson guns have varied 
rather dramatically between editions but I have to agree that they are only 
marginally effective in space combat under the FFS2/MCS combo (I know/care 
very little about the T4 space combat system). Some of the smaller ships I 
designed with Meson guns should probably perform better with PAWs (but then 
most of them are experiments to see how effective Meson guns are with MCS).

Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of PAWs that 
Dimashq doesn't need to try to fill that ecological niche. ;)

IMO meson guns only become somewhat effective in ship-to-ship combat with 
tunnel lengths of 500 m or more (IIRC the Recurrent Glory has a 690 m Meson 
Gun). The biggest advantage in game is that their existence forces ships to 
carry Meson screens that add another factor into the acceleration vs. armour 
vs. stealth equation. The biggest disadvantages that they have short range 
and that hit probability analysis suggest that it's harder to hit a target 
with a meson gun (a effect simulated by MCS). An evasive strategy that is 
optimal for Meson guns will however be less efficient against Lasers and 
PAWs (unless shot at from more than one direction).


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:55:14 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <200205010054.FJA02801@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>Subject: Re: [TML] A Challenge  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>No, on the contrary, the mouse I use best. That is - once I 
>get my arm up onto the desk. Copy and paste is my best 
>action.
>
I've got a Microsoft trackball that helped the arm strain go 
away (seems I get tense using a regular mouse). That, and I 
use IBM ViaVoice to type a lot.  Initially, I had to make a 
lot of corrections, but it knows me now. Not so good for web 
pages, but that's what the mouse is for.  It's very good for 
dictation in Word.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:59:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:59:08 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <F86Dv60gxapzhad2VqK00006ba3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020214606.5089.ajackson@ping>

Patrik Holmstr=F6m writes:

> To the best of my knowledge the effectiveness of Meson guns have varied=
=20
> rather dramatically between editions but I have to agree that they are on=
ly
>  marginally effective in space combat under the FFS2/MCS combo

Specifically, there's not much point to range beyond short, due to the evas=
ion
effects.  Meson guns have a bunch of interesting tactical uses because you =
can
hide behind a planet or deep in a gas giant and use a forward observer in a
fighter (yeah, that's not discussed in MCS).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:05:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:05:07 2002
Subject: [TML] reloading example
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020319202156.009eb8c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20430.171325.3s0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Mark, you have one of *everything.*
>
> One of my "win the lottery" plans is establish residency in Oregon, get the 
> proper paperwork, and have you show me where to go shopping.  :)

Well, there's always "Fairly Honest Don's Machine Gun Parlor" out in
Hillsboro. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>

From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
>>This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking 
>> >>about a X-ray laser so it needs to be at least TL13.
>
>That doesn't necessarily follow.  TL13 is where controlled and
>contained Xray weapon lasers appear, is it not?

That's why I said probably. However if we want to build a ChemDet warhead 
using the canon laser rules (or a slightly tweaked version) ChemDets will 
suck big time unless they are grav focused or use X-ray wavelengths.


>I would expect detonation lasers to appear *much* earlier; TL8 or 9.

Are you talking about NukeDets or ChemDets here?


> >Can a lasing rod (as used in NukeDets) also be used with chemicals?
>
>Almost certainly nuclear detonation lasers are nothing like chemical
>ones.  They would be based on gamma/hard Xray radiation input to begin
>with, and chemical reactions never generate such radiation.

I thought so too, nice to have it confirmed.


> > Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow
> > up) or something more powerful (that does)?
>
>The latter, I would expect.  A cartridge that doesn't blow up is
>over-engineered for this task.

Yeah, I would like self-destructing cartridges as well and since we already 
have Chemical Laser Cartridges that don't blow up there should exist a 
margin for more powerful and/or lighter self-destructing version.

The laser cartridge question is not my largest obstacle. The regular CLC has 
more than enough power to be a viable weapon for civilian/light military use 
especially considering the price tag of the alternative (NukeDets cost 1+MCr 
and a missile armed ship can easily carry three times its own cost in 
missiles). The big problem is explaining why so few beams from a NukeDet 
seems to hit the target. At 15000 km the target can only evade 0.5m/G so the 
number of hits should be more or less equal to the number of rods/focal 
arrays pointed at the target. If we assume that all the lasers fired hits we 
get the following TL13 500 kg warheads (regular CLC).

#CLC     Energy  MCS stats
16     x  40 Mj  13:14
8     x  80 Mj  14:13
4     x 160 Mj  15:12

There are some reasons (e.g. the 1D6 Hits rule from TNE/T4) to believe that 
NukeDets aren't this accurate. As they don't require a conventional beam 
pointer (whatever it is that beam pointers do) it could be argued that they 
compensate by spreading the shots over a larger area (shotgun style). 
Another source of inaccuracy could be the detonation of the nuke itself.

If a ChemDet used a regular beam pointer none of the above would apply and a 
reasonable assumption would be that all the pulses would hit. That's nice 
but unfortunately a 15'000 km beam pointer weights slightly less than 1000 
kg (mixing FFS1/2 at TL13, 50'000 km = 1333 kg, 30.000 km = 1000 kg, 5000 km 
= 948 kg, 3000 km = 500 kg). This is clearly too much for a missile and 
Bruce Macintosh argued in a off-list email that ChemDets should be able to 
use a lightweight beam pointer since NukeDets get away with something like 
that. The question then becomes how this affects the performance of the 
ChemDet.

I am leaning towards postulating a 100 kg beam pointer that causes 5/6ths of 
the laser pulses to miss when fired at "a typical target" from 15'000 km. 
This is reduced to 2/3rds due to the ChemDets shorter detonation range. With 
these assumptions we get the following TL13 500 kg (400+100kg) warheads.

Nr/CLSs  Energy  MCS stats
12     x  45 Mj  13:11
6     x  90 Mj  14:10
3     x 180 Mj  15:9


This is slightly better than the MCS ChemDet warhead (which is a handwave 
based on a somewhat legal design). There exist enough handwave room here to 
tweak things to anybodies liking. The draft I'm working on adds a factor 2 
by going to self-destructive cartridges at TL13 (4 Mj/kg) while a TL16 
self-destructive cartridge (5 Mj/kg) adds an additional factor of 2 compared 
with its TL13 cousin (this includes the "laser efficiency modifier"). Of 
course none of this is set in stone.

An aside - I tried rating the warheads for TNE but they sucked badly due to 
their low penetration ratings (I rated the 40Mj warhead as 1D6 hits at 
1/4-16).


>>Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a 
>>lot.
>>TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing
>>Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical 
>>Lasing
>>Cartridge? Double this?
>
>Theoretically possible, yes.  Practically?  I don't know.  The mass of
>a cartridge is more than just the mass of chemical compounds contained
>within it, and converting chemical energy to laser energy is usually
>far from 100% efficient.  2 MJ/kg is very good, as far as I can see.
>
>- Tim


I'm thinking more the other practical angle. If the self-destructing 
cartridge were not noticeably better than the regular cartridge we would all 
be designing reusable (why blow up a expensive missile) laser missiles with 
10-50 cartridges with a few 45'000 km range High RoF focal arrays. The best 
part is that PD fire wouldn't stand a chance at these ranges while the 
missile would still hit most targets with every shot. Hey, this almost 
sounds like a good idea. : )

Such a missile would be a bit larger that a regular missile to fit more 
cartridges, a beam pointer and extra fuel but everything should fit into 7 
to 14 m3 or so. It would be like sort of like a laser armed remote 
controlled fighters. Make them 10 dt, pack a few more weapons and some 
thruster plates for cruising and we got a Zho robotic fighter. :)


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.181756.-125169.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

John

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 20:54:48 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> >
> I've got a Microsoft trackball that helped the arm strain go 
> away (seems I get tense using a regular mouse).

Trackball won't work, nor one of those pads you move a finger on - "No
dexterity!"
My stats are 211885 .....

> That, and I use IBM ViaVoice to type a lot.  

I barely have a voice now, and it's difficult to understand, and
constantly changing.

ObTrav:
You streamlined you ships computer to access by voice command. 
You've been in a nasty bar-fight.
Your face is all swollen from the bar stool that fractured your jaw.
Sure, medical patched you up ok, but your speech is slurred by both your
wounds and Scout brew.
The ship won't open the hatch, now what?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F115LJ0HYnmTvdeLhie00006b47@hotmail.com>

Anthony Jackson wtote
>Patrik Holmstrm writes:
>>To the best of my knowledge the effectiveness of Meson guns have >>varied 
>>rather dramatically between editions but I have to agree that >>they are 
>>only  marginally effective in space combat under the >>FFS2/MCS combo
>
>Specifically, there's not much point to range beyond short, due to the 
> >evasion effects.  Meson guns have a bunch of interesting tactical uses 
> >because you can hide behind a planet or deep in a gas giant and use a 
> >forward observer in a fighter (yeah, that's not discussed in MCS).

It's not really that bad (though nearly). For example any 200 dt Trader (or 
other low acceleration ship) or a Tigress class ship will be hit by every 
shot fired by a (lightspeed) weapon at less than 10 hexes. The exact 
distance when this happends depends on acceleration, displacement and hull 
configuration but is seldom less than 5 hexes except for missiles and 
fighters. Hit probablities goes downhill pretty fast after this distance but 
medium range should be doable for many targets (less so for meson guns). 
AFAIK most editions use some kind of proximity fused Meson gun that removes 
that nasty r^(-6) term.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:34:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:34:18 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <200205010132.FJC00900@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  writes
>My stats are 211885 .....
>
If you don't mind me asking, what happened to you? I have 
that dreaded feeling it was an industrial accident (in my 
youth I used to do abstracts of depositions for industrial 
accidents - don't ask me to eat Heinz Homestyle Gravy)

>ObTrav:
>You streamlined you ships computer to access by voice 
>command. You've been in a nasty bar-fight.
>Your face is all swollen from the bar stool that fractured 
>your jaw. Sure, medical patched you up ok, but your speech 
>is slurred by both your wounds and Scout brew.
>The ship won't open the hatch, now what?
>

IMTU, you pull out the interface cable from your belt pack, 
plug it into the ship's external jack, put the other end into 
the socket in your head, and open the door.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEKACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
>shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

You should be.  My frient Luther Martin has one, and it looks sharp.  His
only complaint is that he doesn't have many places to wear it.  I think he
should just wear it to work, but it's a little too formal for his office's
dress code (he's usually wearing a loud Hawaiian shirt when I see him during
business hours).

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:43:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:43:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
>
>Considering the deal the players made in the first place, a sudden
>attack of ethics would seem to be a bit out of place.  They willingly
>lied and got paid for it.  Seems pretty bizarre that they would care
>that the politician used it for different purposes.
>
>Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
>now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?

As they say in management seminars, it's not so much a problem as an
opportunity.  Having a powerful friend on that world may be the most optimal
outcome, but other options should certainly be considered.  It's not
personal, you know.  It's just business.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:47:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:47:24 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  TML Haiku
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

A great idea
From John Kwon of TML
Haiku of the game

a queasy stomach
deeply humming up your spine 
g-carrier please land

a queasy stomach
the engineer stopped work
he is not jump sick

pleasure center burn
"you must remove that old wire"
"doctor my brain hurts"

Silver gauss pistol
Her stalking ex-husband was
Shot so many times

They have left the Hive
To shake hands and see the sights
Making jokes in sign

Please don't feed the Vargr
He is our steward and cook
Give him bad ideas

Assiniboia
Even in daytime it shines
Credo Down again

Esalin border
They are eating kubicho
I can smell it here

No slaves on Mongo
We enjoy our service here
Do not want to leave

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:55:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:55:08 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
Message-ID: <F264yp8ARf3sllNY30k00006c57@hotmail.com>

>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>

<snip of nice design>

>Weaponry
>1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750]
>(LR)
>20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
>(LR)

Personally I would replace these with laser bays since they are smaller 
(5x), lighter (2.5x), use less power (1.2x) and cost less (7.5x) (but you 
probably know all this). Yes, I know you like PAWs. :)

>6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
>15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations for 600
>crew)

Do you have a reason why you choose to carry more fuel than rations? My
designs usually do the opposite and carry one year worth of rations and
6 month of power plant fuel. My reasoning is that the powerplant fuel will 
be refilled after every jump and that military ships will seldom be operated 
at full power and thus the fuel will last longer.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Searching for filk
Message-ID: <200205010158.FJC02926@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

The song Wanderin' Star from Paint Your Wagon is perilously 
close to filk with few modifications. It almost sounds like 
the unofficial song of the Scouts.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:04:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:04:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>
References: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020501120223.A30646@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> >I would expect detonation lasers to appear *much* earlier; TL8 or 9.
> 
> Are you talking about NukeDets or ChemDets here?

Both.


> There are some reasons (e.g. the 1D6 Hits rule from TNE/T4) to
> believe that NukeDets aren't this accurate. As they don't require a
> conventional beam pointer (whatever it is that beam pointers do)

I have no idea :/

Whatever they are, it isn't something that's required for TL7 weapons.
Unless it's just a fancy term for "sensors".


> I'm thinking more the other practical angle. If the self-destructing
> cartridge were not noticeably better than the regular cartridge we
> would all be designing reusable (why blow up a expensive missile)
> laser missiles with 10-50 cartridges with a few 45'000 km range High
> RoF focal arrays.

I thought 2 MJ/kg *was* for a one-shot self-destructing device.  It's
ahead of any currently plausible reusable pulse laser technology by a
long shot.



> The best part is that PD fire wouldn't stand a chance at these
> ranges while the missile would still hit most targets with every
> shot.

What system allows a whole bunch of batteries of starship-mounted
lasers to miss a non-accelerating target at 45 Mm while the starship
itself is an easy hit?

(I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that the missile could
accelerate while still firing to an accuracy of 1 part per million)


> Such a missile would be a bit larger that a regular missile to fit
> more cartridges, a beam pointer and extra fuel but everything should
> fit into 7 to 14 m3 or so. It would be like sort of like a laser
> armed remote controlled fighters. Make them 10 dt, pack a few more
> weapons and some thruster plates for cruising and we got a Zho
> robotic fighter. :)

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that remote missile/drone warfare is the way
to go in general.  I'm guessing the only reason why Traveller has
starship-to-starship direct-fire battles is for the space-opera image.
The rules (at least GURPS Traveller) don't favour it at all.  It would
be nice to have a clear statement of intent.

(For that matter, even person-to-person gunfights don't look too
plausible at GURPS TL9 and above if you examine things closely, but
there are things you can do to tweak things back into shape to retain
the 'feel' of standard Traveller combat.  Not that I bother with
combat anymore for the most part.  By TL9 weapons and above, when it
comes to lethal combat the outcomes are that you're either unscathed
or dead.  Never wounded and valiantly fighting on, or other staples of
space opera.)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:08:17 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.190216.-125169.4.generalturokan@juno.com>

John

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:32:27 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com  writes
> >My stats are 211885 .....
> >
> If you don't mind me asking, what happened to you? 

Amyo Lateral Sclerosis [ALS] Lou Gherig's disease.

I guess you didn't get my announcement from 9-27-01

I'll send ya copy.

Right now it's time to eat and watch JAG.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
Message-ID: <200205010204.FJC03335@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I bet Tod really likes hearing "Men of Harlech". Not that 
it's a French song, nor did they sing it at Rourke's Drift 
outside of the movie.

I am a more than passable baritone, and I have been heard to 
sing the National Anthem, clearly audible at over a mile away 
without benefit of amplification.  Mind you, I was 50 feet in 
the air, and it was a quiet night. They had to wait until I 
was finished before they called me up and told me to knock it 
off.  There *is* a benefit to knowing more than the first 
verse.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:17:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:17:13 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
References: <F264yp8ARf3sllNY30k00006c57@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CCF4FB0.5EA8596F@premier.net>


"Patrik Holmstrm" wrote:
> 
> >From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> 
> <snip of nice design>

From a highly-regarded competitor in FF&S2 warship design, that's high
praise!
> 
> >Weaponry
> >1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750]
> >(LR)
> >20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
> >(LR)
> 
> Personally I would replace these with laser bays since they are smaller
> (5x), lighter (2.5x), use less power (1.2x) and cost less (7.5x) (but you
> probably know all this). Yes, I know you like PAWs. :)

OTOH, if one uses the optional D3 for laser damage in MCS (which I do),
then PAWs (with their D6) are more destructive.  And I _like_
destructive weapons.  _Especially_ destructive PAWs. ;-)

Besides, with a corporate name like AuricTech, do you _really_ think our
designers worry too much about cost (at least when designing warships)?

> 
> >6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
> >15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations for 600
> >crew)
> 
> Do you have a reason why you choose to carry more fuel than rations? My
> designs usually do the opposite and carry one year worth of rations and
> 6 month of power plant fuel. My reasoning is that the powerplant fuel will
> be refilled after every jump and that military ships will seldom be operated
> at full power and thus the fuel will last longer.

Three reasons:

1.  More leeway in the event of fuel loss due to damage.
2.  Longer operating time in the event of a misjump or other calamity
that causes the crew to retreat to the Emergency low berths (as you can
see, the design has enough Emergency low berths to carry the entire crew
at normal manning levels).
3.  The default setting on the Akins spreadsheet for fusion plant fuel
is one year.

Note: these reasons are not necessarily in order of importance. :-)

Thanks again for the feedback.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:21:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:21:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giants (was Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller)
Message-ID: <48.acc729f.2a00aad9@aol.com>

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tim@freeman.little-possums.net writes:
> Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
> pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
> dwarf mass.  Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
> increasing temperatures.  Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
> expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.
>
> It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
> 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
> fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.

Got a reference for this?

If we ever revise GT:First In, one of the things I want to fix is the way
you generate gas giant sizes. I'm not particuarly happy with the kludge
I originally came up with - for one thing, you can't really generate super-
Jovians with it.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>tim@freeman.little-possums.net writes:
<BR>&gt; Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
<BR>&gt; pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
<BR>&gt; dwarf mass. &nbsp;Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
<BR>&gt; increasing temperatures. &nbsp;Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
<BR>&gt; expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
<BR>&gt; 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
<BR>&gt; fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.
<BR>
<BR>Got a reference for this?
<BR>
<BR>If we ever revise GT:First In, one of the things I want to fix is the way
<BR>you generate gas giant sizes. I'm not particuarly happy with the kludge
<BR>I originally came up with - for one thing, you can't really generate super-
<BR>Jovians with it.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_48.acc729f.2a00aad9_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:45:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:45:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
In-Reply-To: <200205010204.FJC03335@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8F4A4BE.5908C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/30/02 7:04 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I bet Tod really likes hearing "Men of Harlech". Not that
> it's a French song, nor did they sing it at Rourke's Drift
> outside of the movie.
> 

Tod likes all martial music.  It is a sad thing that modern war rids us a
music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that pop
up now and again).  I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
beginning of the battle.  Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
gleaming in the sun, and martial music.  It stirs the blood.

Modern war is a dirty, no nonsense business with no room for ruffles and
flourishes, banners snapping in the wind, sabres gleaming and 'gloire'.

From Louis Simpson

"At Malplaquet and Waterloo
They were polite and proud,
They primed their guns with billet-doux
And, as they fired, bowed.
At Appomatox too, it seems
Some things were understood.

O the ash and the oak and the willow tree
And the green grows the grass on the infantry; "

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
Message-ID: <a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462@aol.com>

--part1_a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462_boundary
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> Tod likes all martial music.  It is a sad thing that modern war rids us a
> music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that pop
> up now and again).  I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
> beginning of the battle.  Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
> gleaming in the sun, and martial music.  It stirs the blood.

I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been writing,
involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some rather
unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there have
been a couple sequels.

The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in the
soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior speakers.
Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as they
wade into combat.

The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon"
at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-).

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Tod likes all martial music. &nbsp;It is a sad thing that modern war rids us a
<BR>&gt; music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that pop
<BR>&gt; up now and again). &nbsp;I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
<BR>&gt; beginning of the battle. &nbsp;Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
<BR>&gt; gleaming in the sun, and martial music. &nbsp;It stirs the blood.
<BR>
<BR>I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been writing,
<BR>involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some rather
<BR>unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there have
<BR>been a couple sequels.
<BR>
<BR>The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in the
<BR>soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior speakers.
<BR>Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as they
<BR>wade into combat.
<BR>
<BR>The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon"
<BR>at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-).
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
References: <a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CCF5D6A.23227877@premier.net>


JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> 
**quote**

I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been
writing, 
involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some
rather 
unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there
have 
been a couple sequels. 

The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in
the 
soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior
speakers. 
Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as
they 
wade into combat. 

The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" 
at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-). 

**end quote**

Of course, had they played "MacArthur Park" (the Richard Harris
version), there would have been mass surrenders by the hostiles [*],
followed immediately by mass arrests of US Special Forces personnel for
war crimes.... ;-)

[*] Either that, or the aliens' braincases would have exploded.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F259XPec8O1AAwl6zO600006d73@hotmail.com>

Timothy Little wrote:
>Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> > There are some reasons (e.g. the 1D6 Hits rule from TNE/T4) to
> > believe that NukeDets aren't this accurate. As they don't require a
> > conventional beam pointer (whatever it is that beam pointers do)
>
>I have no idea :/
>
>Whatever they are, it isn't something that's required for TL7 weapons.
>Unless it's just a fancy term for "sensors".

Well, FFS1 says that they "represent the integral fire control capabilities 
of the weapon". They are required for "all heavy (non-small arm) laser, 
particle accelerators and meson guns". A external sensor is still required 
to the best of my knowledge.

>I thought 2 MJ/kg *was* for a one-shot self-destructing device.  It's
>ahead of any currently plausible reusable pulse laser technology by a
>long shot.

That depends on you defination of self-destructing. The regular CLC is used 
much like a rifle cartridge and the reaction is contained in the cartridge 
itself. I'm thinking more of something that explodes spectacularly.

> > The best part is that PD fire wouldn't stand a chance at these
> > ranges while the missile would still hit most targets with every
> > shot.
>
>What system allows a whole bunch of batteries of starship-mounted
>lasers to miss a non-accelerating target at 45 Mm while the starship
>itself is an easy hit?

Assuming that the missile can manuever:
It's bigger and accelerates less? :)

Assuming that it can't:
It won't matter since an entire fleet will be waiting for the target ship to 
stop manuevering in preparation of PD fire. The fleet will then fire and hit 
with every weapon it has disposable.

>(I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that the missile could
>accelerate while still firing to an accuracy of 1 part per million)

The rules seem to disagree but I grant you that it would be something of an 
engineering problem. I think Bruce Macintosh talked about laser accuracy a 
couple of times but I can't remember if he mentioned something about 
acceleration effects.

The fire control would have knowledge of future acceleration and could 
syncronize fire with a straight burn. During such a burn the angle to the 
target wouldn't change much and you have to do that kind of burn rather 
often if you want optimal evasion. Another possible tactic would be to have 
the missile stop accelerating for 0.1 seconds (or less) while shooting. Not 
evading is after all a valid evasion tactic (unless you do it all the time 
or do it predictably).

<snip>

I agree with all the rest. I have designed fighter drones and automatic PD 
systems for battledress for this kind of war. Fighting a high tech war 
without support and gadgets must (most of the time) be like fighting modern 
day tanks with sticks and stones. On the largest flat surface you can 
imagine. In the dark. And you can't hide.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:26:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:26:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giants (was Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller)
In-Reply-To: <48.acc729f.2a00aad9@aol.com>
References: <48.acc729f.2a00aad9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020501132547.A30741@freeman.little-possums.net>

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
[I wrote:]
> > It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
> > 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
> > fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.
> 
> Got a reference for this?

Just my lecture notes at the moment, though I'm sure I can find a
suitable reference in the Uni library.  I've been meaning to go back
there for another study session soon anyway :)

Of course, these models are entirely theoretical: no diameters of real
superjovians have yet been measured to my knowledge.  A quick abstract
search confirms this as of March 2002.  I can find only two measured
diameters for verified extrasolar planets (via transit photometry),
both of sub-jovian mass.

Interestingly, one of the two appears somewhat larger than Jupiter --
1.35 times the diameter, but only about 70% of Jupiter's mass.  This
is almost certainly because it is *very* hot, orbiting just 0.045 AU
from a G0V star, and also because it has a relatively low mass so that
the pressure increase due to temperature is more able to overcome
gravity.

I would not be at all surprised if this is close to the largest planet
that will ever be found.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:33:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:33:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <200205010332.FJG00772@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
Message-ID: <F1790dwzd44lkw8Hbql00006d85@hotmail.com>

Please forgive the somewhat lighthearted tone of the message. It must be the 
hour.

>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>"Patrik Holmstrm" wrote:
> >
> > >From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> >
> > <snip of nice design>
>
>From a highly-regarded competitor in FF&S2 warship design, that's high
>praise!

Maybe we should start the "Club for Internal Admiration"? Hmm, I think I 
recognise those initials. :)

> > >Weaponry
> > >1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 
>[1,200/750-750-750-750]
> > >(LR)
> > >20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
> > >(LR)
> >
>>Personally I would replace these with laser bays since they are >>smaller 
>>(5x), lighter (2.5x), use less power (1.2x) and cost less (7.5x) (but you 
>>probably know all this). Yes, I know you like PAWs. :)
>
>OTOH, if one uses the optional D3 for laser damage in MCS (which I do),
>then PAWs (with their D6) are more destructive.  And I _like_
>destructive weapons.  _Especially_ destructive PAWs. ;-)

Now that you remaind I remember that I also use that rule. Dang! Well we 
will then have to roughly double the size of the mount. That will cut rather 
severly into our advantages but at least we now have a average damage that 
is 0.5 higher (16+2 vs 14+3.5) than the PAW mount though the laser mount 
still lack the doubled crew casulties.

Wait now I got it! The laser mount has superior traverse! Muhhha! I wan't to 
see your 44 m PAW triumf that! :)

>>>6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
>>>15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations
> >
>>Do you have a reason why you choose to carry more fuel than rations? >>My 
>>designs usually do the opposite and carry one year worth of >>rations and 
>>6 month of power plant fuel. My reasoning is that the >>powerplant fuel 
>>will  be refilled after every jump and that military >>ships will seldom 
>>be operated at full power and thus the fuel will >>last longer.
>
>Three reasons:
>
>1.  More leeway in the event of fuel loss due to damage.
>2.  Longer operating time in the event of a misjump or other calamity
>that causes the crew to retreat to the Emergency low berths (as you can
>see, the design has enough Emergency low berths to carry the entire >crew 
>at normal manning levels).
>3.  The default setting on the Akins spreadsheet for fusion plant fuel
>is one year.
>
>Note: these reasons are not necessarily in order of importance. :-)
>
Pretty good reasons all of them.

Now it's time to crawl into my cave since the daystar is rapidly approching.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 23:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 22:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F259XPec8O1AAwl6zO600006d73@hotmail.com>
References: <F259XPec8O1AAwl6zO600006d73@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020501152126.A30999@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> Well, FFS1 says that they "represent the integral fire control capabilities 
> of the weapon". They are required for "all heavy (non-small arm) laser, 
> particle accelerators and meson guns". A external sensor is still required 
> to the best of my knowledge.

OK.  So it isn't something required for any TL7 weapon, which is why I
couldn't find anything about it :)


> That depends on you defination of self-destructing. The regular CLC
> is used much like a rifle cartridge and the reaction is contained in
> the cartridge itself. I'm thinking more of something that explodes
> spectacularly.

I don't think it would make much difference.  If it's big enough to
self-destruct with 2 MJ/kg, you're not going to get a lot more power
out of anything chemical once you add in all the other apparatus
necessary to get an ultra-high power extremely tightly collimated
laser beam out of it.


> It won't matter since an entire fleet will be waiting for the target
> ship to stop manuevering in preparation of PD fire. The fleet will
> then fire and hit with every weapon it has disposable.

If the entire enemy fleet stops maneuvering to fire at one target
ship, they are themselves open to fire from the opposing fleet :)

Besides which, a very large ship can carry stabilisation gear that a
little missile can't.


> >(I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that the missile could
> >accelerate while still firing to an accuracy of 1 part per million)
> 
> The rules seem to disagree but I grant you that it would be something of an 
> engineering problem. I think Bruce Macintosh talked about laser accuracy a 
> couple of times but I can't remember if he mentioned something about 
> acceleration effects.

"Jerk."  That's not an insult, it's a technical term :)

Specifically, the term for rate of change of acceleration.  An evading
vehicle must change acceleration direction rapidly, which means that
stabilisation has to converge on the order of tens of milliseconds for
a missile to use its acceleration ability to best advantage, against a
jerk of thousands of gees per second.


> Another possible tactic would be to have the missile stop
> accelerating for 0.1 seconds (or less) while shooting.

0.1 seconds is very short time for even short-mode vibrations to damp
out from the jerk of not accelerating anymore.  Mind you, I don't
doubt that TL12 weapon mounts and fire control could do so, but us
poor mortals certainly couldn't.

Another thought: A high-RoF missile probably won't scratch the paint
of most ships -- after all, there's a limit to how much energy you can
deliver over a combat round, and breaking it up into lots of little
pieces just means you have more chances to hit for no damage.  One
ship's laser will vaporise a missile, since there just isn't enough
volume for anywhere near the same thickness of armour that a starship
can mount.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 03:21:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:21:45 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Red Army Chorus
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHEECMCEAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAIECMCKAA.redroach@pobox.com>



I personally think that the US National anthem sucks!
1. The ONLY national anthem that talks about war.
2. A notes that only professional singers can hit on key.
3. Only the communists know the words past the first verse!

Myself and a lot of Americans prefer "America the Beautiful".
They even voted on this in Congress a few years back.

(Rant Over)

MY TURN:
Too bad I am obviously an American who prefers and values the "Star Spangled
Banner."
Maybe we should take Franklin's idea and change our national bird to the
turkey.

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:10:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:10:39 -0600
Subject: [TML] Comm check
Message-ID: <3CA7A57F.EEFD8C@mail.cswnet.com>

ping ping ping ping ping

Here we go again.

ISS Agena at the outer beacon.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:15:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:15:40 -0600
Subject: [TML] Roseberry's HG2 used space craft lot
Message-ID: <3CA7A6AC.CCAACC8B@mail.cswnet.com>

Come on down and try out some of these beauties...
[all designs use HG2. Costs are standard, no arch fees, no discounts]
[TL per Ct]


Upshore class slow shuttle
Y2-0201111-030000-00001-0  TL10-12  95dt Crew=2
            1         2    Mcr26.325 standard 
            1         2
Fuel=4.25dt EP=.95 Agile=1 Cargo=60 Passenger couches=10
Bridge included.


Terp class armored space tanker
QK-0201111-330000-00001-0   TL10-11  40dt Crew=2
            1         2    Mcr16.33 Standard
            1         2
Fuel=1 EP=.4 Agile=1 Bridge included. Tanker Fuel=20dt


Gaku N'aGak class slow modular cutter
Uses same 30dt standard modules as the regular cutter.

Gaku N'aGak class, frame section only
YY2-0203411-030000-00001-0   TL10-12  10dt
             1         2    Mcr9.05 standard  Crew=2
             1         2
Fuel=1.8 EP=.4 Agile=3

Gaku N'aGak class, frame and module section
YY2-0201111-030000-00001-0  TL10-12  40dt
             1         2    Mcr9.05 plus cost of module
             1         2    Crew=2
Fuel=1.8 EP=.4 Agile=1

Modules shown in Adventure 7.


"Cyberspeed" orbital racing speeder
QF-0606701-000000-00000-0 TL9-12  4.5dt
no weapons                Mcr5.885 std Crew=1
Fuel=1 EP=.315 Agile=6 no bridge. Mod1 computer.


Standard Speeder using HG2
VF-0106601-000000-00000-0 TL9-12  6dt
no weapons               Mcr6.52 std 
Fuel=1.08 Ep=.36 Agile=6 Crew=1 Passenger couch=1
no bridge. Mod1 computer. Cargo=.82


Plop designs historical series:  The Jetsons Speeder
NVF-0103311-000000-00000-0 TL9-12  9dt
no weapons                Mcr6.718 std Crew=1
Fuel=1 EP=.27 Agile=3 Cargo=0
1 pilot couch, 4 passenger couches.
1 jump capsule launcher, with 3 capsule ready storage.
4 jump capsules available.
Unfortunately, the designers at the Plop works haven't figured
out how to stick 9dt speeder into a briefcase. Studies continue.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:20:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:20:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Comm check
Message-ID: <200204010020.DBV00016@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
>
>ping ping ping ping ping
>
>Here we go again.
>
>ISS Agena at the outer beacon.
>

Greetings Agena!  This is Bob Marks of Bob's Duty Free Goods 
and Taxi Service!  Welcome! Welcome!  We have specials on 
clothing, liquor, and specialty foods!  Don't buy the tourist 
stuff they sell in the starport!  Nobody pays retail when 
they can buy from Bob!

We even have free coupons for a 10 percent discount on 
refined fuel!  If you have passengers on board, we can take 
them direct to their destination dirtside for only 10cr!

Act now, and we'll throw in a free hot lunch of charbroiled 
steak!

We can match vectors and be alongside in 10 minutes!  How 
about it?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:41:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jason Barnabas)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 16:41:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Real Life? Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <h2bcaugf7hmmg8npll01nedlk3cv051sqi@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1d915$efff2160$2c617043@jbathome>

JR Holmes wrote:
<snippers>
>I'm jealous.  Of course, from San Diego, I would be beyond any distant
>end of any trip you might be considering (in Wisconsin, on Lake
>Michigan).  Ah well, the joys and sorrows of living on the Central
>Coast.

Well JR, I could plan to end up on the bonny shores (I'm assuming 
they are bonny) of Lake Michigan via the Saint Lawrence Seaway.  
So, no it is not entirely out of the question.  After all if I'm 
going to sail all the way from San Diego harbor to the Chesapeake 
Bay, what's a few thousand more miles.

I believe that both Green Bay and Milwaukee are port cities.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:40:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:40:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Real Life? Intrudes
Message-ID: <200204010040.DBV00674@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Jason Barnabas" says
>
>Well JR, I could plan to end up on the bonny shores (I'm 
>assuming they are bonny) of Lake Michigan via the Saint 
>Lawrence Seaway.  
>So, no it is not entirely out of the question.  After all if 
>I'm going to sail all the way from San Diego harbor to the 
>Chesapeake Bay, what's a few thousand more miles.
>

There are a fair number of us near the Chesapeake Bay.
Yeah, as long as you're going from Regina to Sol, what's 
a few more jumps here or there.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:43:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:43:07 EST
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
Message-ID: <16b.b4fbf3e.29d9071b@aol.com>

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"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> Just finished going through what will be a rather long
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units
> in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may
> differ.
> <snip>

   I'd like a copy as well :)
  -Ken-
 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>
<BR>"John T. Kwon" wrote:
<BR>
<BR>&gt; Just finished going through what will be a rather long
<BR>&gt; document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units
<BR>&gt; in Traveller. &nbsp;Just a guide, mind you. &nbsp;Your mileage may
<BR>&gt; differ.
<BR>&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I'd like a copy as well :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR> 
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_16b.b4fbf3e.29d9071b_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:49:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:49:20 EST
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
Message-ID: <118.f28a399.29d90890@aol.com>

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> Generating a large number of systems shows a possible anomaly in the rules
> for life generation. Approximately ten times the number of complex animals
> evolved in Earthlike conditions are evolved on icy rockballs with
> subsurface oceans. This is also true for sentinent lifeforms.

Probably because there are a lot more icy rockballs than there are
Earthlike worlds.

If you come up with an adjustment that seems right to you, let me 
know - I'm told a reprint or second edition of First In is likely at some
point, so I'm assembling notes for changes to details of the world
generation sequence.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Generating a large number of systems shows a possible anomaly in the rules
<BR>&gt; for life generation. Approximately ten times the number of complex animals
<BR>&gt; evolved in Earthlike conditions are evolved on icy rockballs with
<BR>&gt; subsurface oceans. This is also true for sentinent lifeforms.
<BR>
<BR>Probably because there are a lot more icy rockballs than there are
<BR>Earthlike worlds.
<BR>
<BR>If you come up with an adjustment that seems right to you, let me 
<BR>know - I'm told a reprint or second edition of First In is likely at some
<BR>point, so I'm assembling notes for changes to details of the world
<BR>generation sequence.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:13:22 EST
Subject: [TML] Test
Message-ID: <c1.1e6bbd30.29d90e32@aol.com>

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   Hey-Mailerdemon bounced my last message. Just testing :)
  -Ken-

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hey-Mailerdemon bounced my last message. Just testing :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_c1.1e6bbd30.29d90e32_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:29:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:29:47 -0600
Subject: [TML] Real Life? Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <000501c1d915$efff2160$2c617043@jbathome>
References: <h2bcaugf7hmmg8npll01nedlk3cv051sqi@4ax.com> <000501c1d915$efff2160$2c617043@jbathome>
Message-ID: <5scfau8hccl722d5bgm5a6obo8hfh8eppg@4ax.com>

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 16:41:18 -0800, "Jason Barnabas"
<cyber0@prodigy.net> wrote:

>JR Holmes wrote:
><snippers>
>>I'm jealous.  Of course, from San Diego, I would be beyond any distant
>>end of any trip you might be considering (in Wisconsin, on Lake
>>Michigan).  Ah well, the joys and sorrows of living on the Central
>>Coast.
>
>Well JR, I could plan to end up on the bonny shores (I'm assuming=20
>they are bonny) of Lake Michigan via the Saint Lawrence Seaway. =20
>So, no it is not entirely out of the question.  After all if I'm=20
>going to sail all the way from San Diego harbor to the Chesapeake=20
>Bay, what's a few thousand more miles.
>
>I believe that both Green Bay and Milwaukee are port cities.

Green Bay and Milwaukee (and Duluth on Lake Superior) are deep water
ports suitable for ocean-going ships.  There are a couple of dozen
other harbors which are easily suitable for a 39 footer.  The sailing
season here is only about 6 months long, so it would become a matter
of timing.  The Chesapeake is a fair bit more temperate than the Great
Lakes can be (which isn't saying much if you know about the bad
reputation that the Chesapeake has).

As a minor benefit, and reaching back to my collegiate sailing days, I
understand that the slime which builds up on your hull while passing
through Lake Erie is closely akin to the "Go-Fast" coating that ocean
racers spend hundreds applying to their hulls.

Unfortunately, this is the last year that the annual GenCon gaming
convention will be taking place in Milwaukee (its moving to
Indianapolis), because it takes place in early August and coincided
with the Wisconsin State Fair and was close to a number of very large
summer festivals.  That would have been a good time goal to shoot for.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:37:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 17:37:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Trip time question
Message-ID: <200204010137.RAA27635@molly.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
>> Actually B is how many *hours* of burn endurance were used. Sorry I should 
>> have been more specific
>
>In that case, the formula as written is incorrect.  The delta-V should
>be doubled.  (22 mi/s per g-hour, or 35 km/s)

The real problem is that TS is using a weird definition -- what is written
as 'delta-V' is really 'average trip speed'.  If you look around, you 
discover that it assumes both acceleration and deceleration, and should
be doubled for a one-way trip.

Personally, I think that's confusing, but it is the way the rules work.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:55:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] just looking around
Message-ID: <200204010155.DBX01369@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Was over at Walt Smith's page, and he had a big essay on 
piracy in his TU, which may or may not appeal to those who 
have been involved in rolling around on the topic.

However, he made a few interesting points.  Steal a small 
craft, and even if you only get a fraction of its value, 
you've made a lot of money.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:10:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 21:10:54 EST
Subject: [TML] Navy stuff
Message-ID: <16.1cbec3b9.29d91bae@aol.com>

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   Those interested in some other notes about Spaceships, navy structure, 
assignments and operations, damage control, and the like might want to check 
out Mark Chase's Mekton Z  page at 
http://www.meta-earth.com/metal/metalrpg.html#ch2
   The information is interesting, and some quite  _easily_ liftable for a 
Traveller campaign :)
  -Ken-

   "One of his tricks of persuasion was to cut open the breast of a victim, 
pull out the still beating heart, and gnaw upon it with great relish while 
the next menu object looked on in stark terror. No wonder few withheld 
information from L'Olonais"

   Blackbeard
   AH Games

  

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Those interested in some other notes about Spaceships, navy structure, assignments and operations, damage control, and the like might want to check out Mark Chase's Mekton Z &nbsp;page at 
<BR>http://www.meta-earth.com/metal/metalrpg.html#ch2
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;The information is interesting, and some quite &nbsp;_easily_ liftable for a Traveller campaign :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;"One of his tricks of persuasion was to cut open the breast of a victim, pull out the still beating heart, and gnaw upon it with great relish while the next menu object looked on in stark terror. No wonder few withheld information from L'Olonais"
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Blackbeard
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;AH Games
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:17:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:17:15 -0600
Subject: [TML] Testing
References: <B8CB9A45.3371C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CA7C32B.74BC120@premier.net>

Hmmm.  Did you turn off StripMIME?  A couple of posts came through in
the past couple of hours that were obviously not plain text.

Not a major issue for me, but it may well be an issue for digest
subscribers.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:40:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:40:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Encumbrance
In-Reply-To: <200203311634.DBF00567@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020331183941.009fc790@mindspring.com>

At 11:34 AM 3/31/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Haven't yet seen rules I like for encumbrance.  PCCS is very
>accurate, but takes too long to calculate.
>
>A good page
>
>http://call.army.mil/products/newsltrs/01-15/01-15ch11.htm

Actually, the entire site is good for those playing military/mercenary 
campaigns.

http://call.army.mil/products/newsltrs/01-15/01-15toc.htm


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
  Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:23:02 +0930 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Presidio class armoured cruiser
In-Reply-To: <3CA5611B.8EEF4422@premier.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204011221290.12785-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Antony;

 All I can say is that your designs have been copied and will be modified
for MTU. Thank you for the work. Great things to "liberate".

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 04:19:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:19:39 -0600
Subject: [TML] CT Ship Design mailing list
References: <OF14E5A3E8.5F7821AA-ON85256B8D.00573844@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CA7DFDB.C2CABA21@pobox.com>

William Lane wrote:

> about 7 months ago i entered the "Cortez" into Hot Rod Race. the Cortez was
> a modified Scout. well before the results where posted my company laid a
> bunch of people off including me.
>
> I was wondering if the person who ran the hot rod race was a member of the
> TML and could let me know what Standing The Cortez came in. or if someone
> could forward this to him it would be appreciated.
>

The Hot Rod race took place on the CT-Starships list.  The race results were:
                 Hellbent 20 pts
                 Abrr Chatlqaf 19
                 Princess Lucky 14
                 Cortez 12
                 Renown 10

Also, another quote re the Cortez...

--- In ct-starships@y..., "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@r...> wrote:
> <snip>
> My personal favourite design has to be Cortez, any ship that can stick
> closely to the rules and still manage Jump-4, 5G  with 2 tons reserved for
> beer has to be a good design :)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 04:24:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:24:37 EST
Subject: [TML] Splat gun
Message-ID: <197.49c174e.29d93b05@aol.com>

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   Hi gang,
   After seeing stats for one of these things someplace on-line, I got to 
wondering just what exactly _IS_ an Aslan Splatgun anyhow?
  -Ken-

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi gang,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;After seeing stats for one of these things someplace on-line, I got to wondering just what exactly _IS_ an Aslan Splatgun anyhow?
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_197.49c174e.29d93b05_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 03:54:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:24:22 +0930 (CST)
Subject: [TML] boarding bots
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331144144.02480060@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204011313420.12785-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi laning:

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, laning wrote:

> I remember reading the article at the time.  Like most non-GDW magazine
> articles that proposed additional rules for Traveller, it added something
> far more powerful than would balance with the existing game rules.

 I think it was #64. Carried a "URP". I made a few servant bots. One
cyborg PC and then sort of lost interest. As it became a way of making
ultra powerful things that either  upset the game in favour of the team or
the opposition. So I ended up doing a sort of "Dune" trip about robots.
Forget the name of the provision against such things. <Butler?>

> Of course, I'm no happier than anyone else with the GDW robot rules in Book
> 8--or the computer rules, for that matter.  But, I shouldn't criticize,
> because I'm hardly qualified to write something better.  I don't think
> Moore's Law is infinitely recursive and in fact I think it's likely to
> reach its limit while most of us are still alive, so that doesn't jibe at
> all with the hardware rules.  Software rules are more problematical to
> devise.  Locomotion and manipulators _might_ be amenable to easy
> calculation for engineers experienced in such areas but that's only for
> current-day tech, so tech levels 8 through 15 or higher are anybody's
> guess.  The power requirements and power production do seem to have been
> second-guessed very intelligently and accurately by people on this list who
> sounded qualified.

 I was not familiar with computers or robotics at that time. So I let the
entire concept wither on the vine IMTU. But as I ressurect my game. I now
need to adress the matter. Book 8 seems to be in some areas weak and  in
other complex. I need more understanding and then create for MTU.

> BTW, Lord Ronin, if you ever phoned for tech support during the last days
> of Q-Link before it was ignominiously "sunsetted" then we may have spoken
> on the phone.  Although I never had my own account, it was still one of my
> duties to provide tech support.  At least, unlike most of the other AOL
> tech reps who were tasked with the same thing, I'd actually owned a couple
> of Commodore computers in my time.  The only computers on the tech reps'
> desks were IBM-compatibles, with a healthy scattering of Macs, also.  (Not
> 6502's, I said Macs.)  I am pleased to report I had an outstanding success
> rate on my Q-Link calls.  Which is a good thing, because there was many an
> evening when I was the _only_ tech available to answer Q-Link calls.  I had
> wanted to join one of the developers to be online for chat during the final
> moments, but I was busy working instead.

 no i doubt it was you I talked to, as you still have two ears. The one I
talked to got a very falming earful of what I thought about the rape,
torture and murder of Q-Link. Not to mention the stated deltetion of the
C= files from the HD area. BTW: want a copy of the non existent <if you
belive Steve C.> 2400 front end loader? I was part of the Q-Link
preservation group. C=64 Dungeon Arcade was may area. have it all the F-3
comments and still have the 90 catalogue. Now if I can find all the inn
ladies from the geopaint area for my BBS. But I won't delve into that
topic on llist. Oh on the FWIW part laning, I only use Commodore still.
Online with one at this moment at 14.4 going to 56k this upcoming month.
See me off list if you would like to know more about the current world of
Commodore and the new Commodore system comming out shortly.

 OBTRAV: There have been alot of PC platforms in the past. IMTU they are
all C= OS based. As that is what I belive in as the best OS for the user.
Personal opinion of course. IYTU what do you use as a computer standard?
is there a platform OS standard on all computer using tech level worlds?
Does the 3I enforce a compliance of a specific computer OS platform? Or
are there multiple and semi if at all compatible OS units in your game
world?

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 06:01:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:01:28 +0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Kiev class light fleet carriers
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331105548.024beec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEGFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of laning
Sent: Sunday, 31 March 2002 11:59 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Kiev class light fleet carriers


Antony, why would Terra build a jump-1 warship?  It's more than one parsec
to Terra's nearest neighbor, IIRC.

And my prejudice against fighters/carriers is stronger for this class than
it was for the Consort.  I could see fighters used in commerce raiding as
well as commerce escort, but haven't found a use beyond that.

--Laning

The Kiev is capable of 1x jump-3 or upto 3x jump-1 or any combination. The
other thing to remember is that fighter carriers have been canon since CT.
The Kievs were also designed around the time of the First Solomani Rim war
so have been left behind somewhat by later developments.

Also in Traveller rulesystems (GT excepted, I don't know about T4, not
having that) A ships weapons can only engage one target per round regardless
of rate of fire (rate of fire just makes that target easier to hit). This
actually increases the survivability of fighters. Most of my fighter designs
still carry Nuclear Detonation missiles for a stand off capability.

From play testing I also found that in TNE at least fighters used
defensively are quite successful. Effectively giving a vessel like the Kiev
forty more laser turrets and missile launchers. Commerce raiders also tend
to be of cruiser class or less (the Azhanti High Lightnings were commonly
used for this) Against this type of vessel fighters are a threat. If not why
do the Lightnings for example carry so many light starfighters?

Anyway that is some of my thinking behind the class.

Antony



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 06:01:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:01:29 +0800
Subject: [TML] Presidio class armoured cruiser
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204011221290.12785-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEGFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Lord Ronin from
Q-Link
Sent: Monday, 1 April 2002 10:53 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Presidio class armoured cruiser


Hoi Antony;

 All I can say is that your designs have been copied and will be modified
for MTU. Thank you for the work. Great things to "liberate".

BCNU


Why thank you my lord,
Praise from the praiseworthy is praise indeed.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 06:01:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:01:30 +0800
Subject: [TML] GT Ship Conversion from TML Post
In-Reply-To: <3CA72B79.1969.B92D3@localhost>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOEGFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of shadowcat
Sent: Monday, 1 April 2002 5:30 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] GT Ship Conversion from TML Post


I give you the Breton class light cruiser, I unfortunately have forgotten
who
posted the orginal, and my apologies for the omission of the persons name

That's Ok, the original FFS1 version was posted by me. Nice conversion.
Incidently Fremantle, named after the city in Western Australia not
Freemantle.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 04:24:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:24:18 -0600
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
References: <200203310432.DAH01551@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV57xlgF6ygG1pzOKJ000112d6@hotmail.com>

I'd be grateful for a copy.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"

> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages
> so far.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 07:18:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 02:18:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  The Traveller Movie (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <20020328202400.35905.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CA105D7.EB960833@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020328175158.02bd1c70@pop.wizard.net>

At 12:24 PM 3/28/02 -0800, someone wrote:
>How about this for a plot.  Somehow Norris gets wind
>of the assassination plot and heads to warn the
>Emperor.  Unfortunately misjump occurs and the ships
>can't continue.  The only option is the Free Trader
>Beowulf.

Good stuff.  I like it.   :->

Minor suspension of disbelief problem though.  Norris' ship misjumps while 
the rest of his escort fleet doesn't.  Somehow, his personal ship isn't 
able to continue on either.  I guess the misjump inflicted damage to the 
jump drive or something.  But for Norris to choose a free trader as his 
best alternative seems implausible.  Unless the Beowulf is the _only_ ship 
in system.  And even then, he'd transfer to a faster vessel at the first 
system that had one, and there'd be plenty of chances for that.  I guess 
the Beowulf would have to be not a free trader, but something with jump-5, 
and preferably a fast maneuever drive too, to reduce days spent maneuvering 
between jumps.  This suggests a very nonstandard ship or nonstandard 
history for what was once a standard ship.  I think that's good 
though.  Make the ship a separate character in the hearts of the 
audience.  Like the 'Millenium Falcon' only much more so.


>   Norris joins the crew and they head accross
>the rift because it is a speedier trip.  Our
>adventurers get to the Real Strephon on the way
>shortly before the news of the assassination reaches
>them.  I think the scene when the Real Emp meets
>Norris and the crew could be cool.

It seems like it takes some serious handwaving to have them bump into the 
real Strephon on the way.  But, yeah, it makes for a good scene and one 
that seems desirable to keep in the script.  It also takes some serious 
handwaving for Norris to get wind of the impending plot when he lives so 
far away from Dulinor and Dulinor's power base, as well as Capital.

But you have a good thing going with taking a high noble and throwing him 
in with the crew.  A major downside of that is it will remind some people 
too much of Princess Leia or Queen Amidala.  Hmm, maybe something involving 
a Zho instead of Norris.  we have to learn through the eyes of the 
merchant's crew that the Zho are not horrible mind rapers after all, and in 
fact are nice folks who like to prevent assassinations.  The Zhodani 
government might have more pragmatic reasons for trying to prevent the 
assassination, too.  They can't know the assassination is scheduled by GDW 
to initiate the break up of the Imperium.  From where they're sitting, it's 
a choice between Dulinor on the throne or Strephon.  And if they can 
arrange for Strephon to owe them big time for saving his bacon, all the better.

Yeah, thinking about it more.  The Zhodani own most of the mind reading 
market, would have a spy network that could pick up wind of Dulinor's plot 
in advance, and then they'd decide to tip off Strephon through people who 
are guaranteed to be loyal to Strephon.  They'd also be aware of the real 
Strephon and his whereabouts.  They transmit their message through their 
usual clandestine channels (diplomatic and spy network within the 
Imperium).  A small party of Zhodani, consisting of the diplomatic courier, 
his military escort, and Zhodani psionic adepts undercover as Imperial 
citizens who are additional security for the diplomatic courier but the 
courier himself is not aware of their true nature.  He thinks they're just 
Imperial citizens headed in the same direction, in a hurry for some 
plausible-sounding reason.  They run afoul of the misjump plot 
device.  They need transport now, and it has to be _fast_.  There's the 
'Beowulf', a 60-year-old merchant, that was bought surplus from the 
Imperial Navy where it was used as a small despatch courier.  It's held 
together by it's talented and devoted crew, who pay factors all over the 
sector to line up courier jobs for them, and thus eke out a living, and get 
to travel the universe.  The Zhodani party _needs_ the 'Beowulf' and 
they're in a hurry.

But, the 'Beowulf' crew are already on a scheduled job, and one that pays, 
and it's going in the opposite direction from where the Zhodani are 
headed.  Sure, the Zhodani can offer virtually unlimited pay to the Beowulf 
as inducement to drop their current courier job in favor of taking the 
Zhodani where they want to go.  But the Beowulf's crew are predisposed to 
disliking and mistrusting the hated Zho's.  Some plot tension and character 
tensions develop.  Some local subplots have to develop also, for the Zho 
and the Impies to struggle through together, and through these actions the 
Impies learn to see the Zho in a new light.  They begin to shed their 
prejudices, but hardly all at once.  Now they're not so sure that they're 
right to be automatically suspicious of the Zhodani.

The fabulous sums dangled by the Zhodani courier tip the scales.  And, 
fortuitously, the local factor (played by Sidney Greenstreet) who the 
'Beowulf' usually does business with, and is their friend and confidante, 
let's them know another ship has arrived in system (one of their 
urgent-delivery competitors) who can be paid to finish the delivery job the 
'Beowulf' is already on.  Still some lingering reservations about Zhodani, 
but they accept the charter and the Zhodani and the 'Beowulf' crew proceed 
together.  Through many jumps, including across the Rift.

The diplomatic courier is actually a very high ranking diplomat who would 
not normally be used merely as a courier, but the significance of this 
mission dictated that he be used partly to lend credibility to his message 
and partly because he is entrusted with a full briefing on the contents of 
his message and his empowered to negotiate directly with Strephon.

Realizing that too much distance/time has been lost because of the misjump, 
the diplomat has to change destination from the planet where the real 
Strephon was sojourning, to meeting Strephon en route as he travels back to 
Capital.  At each port of call, he must contact the local Zhodani consulate 
or spy to pick up the latest news on the precise location reported for the 
real Strephon.  Some minor adventures are associated with meeting these 
local contacts, and the Beowulf crew are required for getting safely 
through these dirtside adventures.  More bonding with the Zhodani.  Their 
reservations and prejudices continue to erode but are not entirely gone 
yet.  Too many centuries of bad history, not to mention the ugly memories 
from the recent FFW.  The crew continues wearing psionic shield devices at 
all times.

The two groups continue working together and are now extremely close to the 
real Strephon.  But the crew keeps wondering why the diplomat keeps playing 
games with naming their final destination (the diplomat doesn't _know_ the 
final destination, he can only guess at the best intercept course to catch 
Strephon).  Finally, one last jump will catch Strephon's caravan.  But 
exactly which jump?  Guess wrong, and more time is lost and Strephon will 
get further away, because he is travelling at jump-6 maneuever-6, a 
combined speed that the 'Beowulf' can almost but not quite match.  (I think 
the Beowulf should be jump-6 maneuever-5 agility-5.) Guess right, and bingo 
they're in the same system as Strephon and can initiate communications and 
arrange a meeting.  The diplomat doesn't have the expertise to predict the 
right jump destination with reasonable chance of success.  He needs all the 
navigational expertise the Beowulf crew can give him.  But for that, he 
needs to tell them a lot more about the identity of the person he is 
chasing that he really wants to.  The 'Beowulf' captain tells the diplomat 
she needs a lot more info from him, he is too vague, she can't predict what 
he's asking without knowing a lot more about the party they're trying to 
catch up to.  Another hurdle to clear in building trust.  And when he does 
tell her, what do she and her crew make of a Zhodani diplomat escorted by 
two hired Zhodani killers who is desperate to catch up to Strephon but 
doesn't want anybody to know?  Suspicious, eh?  More trust-building hurdles 
to clear.  Finally, the Zhodani diplomat and the 'Beowulf's' retired 
Imperial Navy captain trust each other enough to work together. Even then, 
using all their pooled smarts and experience, it's a dice roll whether 
they've guessed the right place to jump and intercept Strephon.  They're 
now in jump space for a week, waiting, anxious.  The captain:  am I right 
to trust this Zho or are they duping me and I'm bringing an assassin to 
meet my vulnerable Emperor?  The diplomat:  these fearful, paranoid, 
suspicious, Impies.  I envy them their freedom and wildness, but how can I 
be gambling so much on the success of a perfect example (the captain) of 
just such wildness?  Is the captain intentionally misleading me?  (Still 
wearing her psi shield, or maybe just one of those rare one-in-a-million 
immunes to telepathic reading.) And if not, did the captain guess the right 
jump destination?  Tension builds.

Did I mention that the diplomat is a man and the captain a woman?  I mean, 
come on.  We can't make a movie like this without some sort of romantic 
interests! Both a young-looking forties, both played by very attractive 
actors?  And is that...sexual tension (!) underlying their many 
disagreements and negotiations during these weeks of travel and adventure?

Things happen during the week of this last jump.  But neither of them seem 
willing to publicly admit to the wild and delirious passions they shared 
during the quietest hours of this last jump, they tried to keep their 
trysts a secret, and we think they've succeeded.  Do they still refuse to 
admit to themselves even that they are falling in love (or at least serious 
lust) with someone from a foreign and looked-down-upon civilization?  To 
the captain, Zhodani equals mind raping totalitarian who doesn't care about 
individuals.  To the diplomat, Imperial equals barbaric, psychologically 
stunted and bloodthirsty individuals who run amok only slightly less than 
wild vargr do.

I'm thinking Sigourney Weaver, Renee Russo, or maybe Nicole Kidman for the 
captain.  Somebody who is an excellent actress, has sex appeal, and can 
carry off being physical and adventurous, and also a bit world weary.  The 
diplomat has to have an aristocratic British accent of course <G> and also 
be a talented enough actor to carry off being strong, independent and 
capable, but somehow project an indefinable vulnerability and need for 
protection while travelling through such "barbaric" provinces.  Best 
casting I've come up with for him so far is Hugh Jackman, who seems pretty 
good.

There should also be a couple of romantic storylines for minor characters 
in the two parties.  Perhaps the aide to the diplomat and one of the ship's 
crew.  It doesn't take them long to acknowledge their interest in each 
other.  They should be fairly uncomplicated and likable characters. and the 
audience should be sympathetic to them.  They still have to overcome the 
outside barriers to their love of conventional prejudices and their mutual 
bosses being somewhat disapproving.  The second romantic storyline should 
involve one person from each party, also.  I'd like for there to be a vargr 
in each group.  I guess that means either one of the undercover Zhodani is 
a vargr, or one of the military escorts.  Perhaps both escorts should be 
from a vargr unit that has been part of the Zhodani Consulate for centuries 
and has a long and honorable tradition of guarding diplomatic missions and 
embassies.  Alternatively, if you want to play the alien race romance angle 
for much broader laughs, one of the romantic pair can be vargr while the 
other is aslan.  The first romantic pairing should be consummated 
(off-screen, this is a G or PG movie) before the two main characters have 
their trysts.  The second, alien-race pairing should be after.

The climactic scene of the film should be final jump succeeds at arriving 
in the correct star system, and succeeds at guessing where in the star 
system would be the smartest place to intercept Emperor Strephon's 
incognito small fleet.  (Smart deductions, plus a very good dice roll from 
someone with very high Navigation skill.  :-)  There are then a few quick 
scenes where the 'Beowulf' signals the Emperor's ship, recognition codes 
are exchanged between the diplomat and a high advisor of the Emperor's, and 
we see from the bridge of our beloved 'Beowulf', over the shoulder of the 
diplomat who is standing behind the pilot and captain, the form of the 
light cruiser carrying the Emperor growing larger and larger.  Docking is 
imminent, and we get a quick cut of the Fire Control Officer aboard the 
Emperor's ship in continuous contact with the Fire Control Officers on the 
escort vessels, advising them the approaching merchant has been recognized 
as friendly but maintain targeting lock with bay and spinal mount 
weapons.  The 'Beowulf' exterior is shown, looking rather small docked 
against the frontier cruiser that carries Strephon.

Those quick scenes should serve to introduce a few characters of the 
Emperor's party who will become prominent in the sequel.  Minor reference 
to them by name might have been made very quickly earlier in the film.  The 
final scene of the film is the entire party ushered into an extremely 
impressive yet informal audience chamber, the rest of the party left near 
the entrance under very professional guard and the diplomat and aide 
escorted forward to be formally introduced to the Emperor.  We see the 
Emperor moving forward with innate grace and noble bearing, and a curious 
smile.  Be sure to look for the sequel soon in theaters everywhere.

I like to picture the characters encountering at least a dozen Imperial 
Guard in full battledress from the moment they board the ship and all the 
into the audience chamber itself.  Starting with two in battledress as they 
pass through the airlock.  Perhaps one of the earlier minor difficulties 
the 'Beowulf' crew and diplomats had to overcome involved a graphic 
demonstration for the audience's benefit of just how amazingly capable 
battle dress can be.  Forget Boba Fett in 'Star Wars' and think more like 
the 'Predator' but with military weaponry instead of hunting weaponry.

I'd like to devise more about the individual characters, and flesh out more 
of the storyline, particularly the various minor adventures besetting the 
two parties during their journey and how these adversities draw them closer 
together over time.  And yes, I know we can't cast Sidney Greenstreet as 
the factor/friend because he's dead.  :->  How about uhhhhh Oliver Platt??

I think the rival fast merchant that took over our protagonist merchant's 
delivery should make a reappearance in the second film.  The trick is going 
to be casting Dulinor and writing the scenes to show his arrogant and 
decidedly lethal plans to assassinate the Emperor but only because he 
thinks it is for the greater good.  We have to show that he loves the 
Imperium, likes and respects Strephon, but just thinks there is only one 
sophont who is the right soph for the job at this critical juncture in 
history.  He goes through some soul searching, but we TMLers already know 
the answers he comes up with.  The Dulinor scenes should show all this, but 
be very economical and not take a lot of screen time.  Dulinor should be 
played by someone very tall and an obviously very fit physical 
specimen.  Lucan...?  I'm seeing Joaquin Phoenix, who did such a great job 
in a similar role in 'Gladiator'.

That's what I have so far, folks.  Comments?

--Laning
(traveller geek code is MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 08:12:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:12:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <DAV16h3lrGS1DknvCes0001cd0f@hotmail.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?  What does canon say on =
this?

Some parameters here:  I'm not talking about hijacking a ship, nor am I =
talking about ship theft incidental to piracy.

Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved in stealing a =
starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.

It seems to me the problem can be considered as four separate issues:

1.  Identifying a likely (unoccupied) target that can be operated by a =
prize crew no larger than the size of your theft team.  Scout ships =
(which often fulfill these conditions) will be targeted for theft much =
more frequently than battlecruisers (which hardly ever do).

It seems one could accomplish this step with visual surveillance, inside =
information from the ships crew or spaceport personnel, and/or Neural =
Activity Sensors.

2.  Approaching the vessel.

This ranges from child's play (an unguarded scout grounded in a sparsely =
populated area with the sole pilot/crewmember dead or distant), to an =
indirect form of suicide (an experimental warship docked at the naval =
base.)

Presumably, accomplishing this would be well nigh impossible at an A =
starport, non-trivial at a B and your better C's, and not beyond the =
realm of consideration at lesser facilities.

3.  Entering the vessel.

Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let you in. <g> =20

How do starships determine who to admit?  Whoever holds the key?  =
Voiceprints?  Biometrics?  Passwords?  Some combination?  Given =
sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar (doubtful) or a cutting =
torch (probably)? =20

Having forced your way in what active countermeasures do you have to =
defeat?  Does the ship send combat bots?  Does the environmental system =
become hostile?  Does an anti theft program deliberately destroy the =
Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the j-drive useless?

4.  Establishing vessel control.

Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do you get the starship =
to respond to your commands?  When you plop down on the pilot's couch =
what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver drive?  =
Again, is there a key?  Biometrics?  PIN numbers?  How much trouble =
would there be in performing the starship analog of a hot-wire job?

Awaiting feedback.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com




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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?&nbsp; =
What does=20
canon say on this?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Some parameters here:&nbsp; I'm not talking about =
hijacking a=20
ship, nor am I talking about ship theft incidental to =
piracy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved =
in stealing=20
a starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It seems to me the problem can be considered as four =
separate=20
issues:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>1.&nbsp; Identifying a likely (unoccupied) target =
that can be=20
operated by a prize crew no larger than the size of your theft =
team.&nbsp; Scout=20
ships (which often fulfill these conditions)&nbsp;will be targeted for =
theft=20
much more frequently than battlecruisers (which hardly ever =
do).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It seems one could accomplish this step&nbsp;with =
visual=20
surveillance, inside information from the ships crew or spaceport =
personnel,=20
and/or Neural Activity Sensors.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>2.&nbsp; Approaching the vessel.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This ranges from child's play (an unguarded scout =
grounded in=20
a sparsely populated area with the sole pilot/crewmember dead or =
distant), to an=20
indirect form of suicide (an experimental warship docked at the naval=20
base.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Presumably, accomplishing this would be well nigh =
impossible=20
at an A starport, non-trivial at a B and your better C's, and not beyond =
the=20
realm of consideration at lesser facilities.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>3.&nbsp; Entering the vessel.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let =
you in.=20
&lt;g&gt;</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>How do starships determine who to admit?&nbsp; =
Whoever holds=20
the key?&nbsp; Voiceprints?&nbsp; Biometrics?&nbsp; Passwords?&nbsp; =
Some=20
combination?&nbsp; Given sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar=20
(doubtful) or a cutting torch (probably)?&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Having forced your way in what active =
countermeasures do you=20
have to defeat?&nbsp; Does the ship send combat bots?&nbsp; Does the=20
environmental system become hostile?&nbsp; Does an anti theft program=20
deliberately destroy the Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the =
j-drive=20
useless?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>4.&nbsp; Establishing vessel control.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do =
you get the=20
starship to respond to your commands?&nbsp; When you plop down on the =
pilot's=20
couch what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver=20
drive?&nbsp; Again, is there a key?&nbsp; Biometrics?&nbsp; PIN =
numbers?&nbsp;=20
How much trouble would there be in performing the starship analog of a =
hot-wire=20
job?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Awaiting feedback.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:texasredshift@hotmail.com">texasredshift@hotmail.com</A></=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 08:42:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:42:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204010842.AAA08687@molly.iii.com>

"Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com> writes:

>How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?  What does canon say on =
>this?

Canon says little that I know of.  Generally, I assume it's hard.

>Some parameters here:  I'm not talking about hijacking a ship, nor am I =
>talking about ship theft incidental to piracy.
>
>Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved in stealing a =
>starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.
>
>It seems to me the problem can be considered as four separate issues:
>
>1.  Identifying a likely (unoccupied) target that can be operated by a =
<snip>. Not a huge problem, unless there's something unusual going on.

>2.  Approaching the vessel.

Agree.  This is dependent on assumptions about computerization; robots 
in most versions of traveller might be smart enough to object, though
by and large they won't be permitted to shoot you outright.
>
>3.  Entering the vessel.
>
>Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let you in. <g> =20
>
>How do starships determine who to admit?  Whoever holds the key?  =
>Voiceprints?  Biometrics?  Passwords?  Some combination?  Given =
>sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar (doubtful) or a cutting =
>torch (probably)? =20

For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't get
in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
do the ship much good, however.

>Having forced your way in what active countermeasures do you have to =
>defeat?  Does the ship send combat bots?  Does the environmental system =
>become hostile?  Does an anti theft program deliberately destroy the =
>Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the j-drive useless?

Most likely, none of the above; the ship yells for help and goes into 
lockdown mode.  Paranoid owners could easily equip the ship with kill
switches in a few critical concealed junctions.

>4.  Establishing vessel control.
>
>Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do you get the starship =
>to respond to your commands?  When you plop down on the pilot's couch =
>what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver drive?  =
>Again, is there a key?  Biometrics?  PIN numbers?  How much trouble =
>would there be in performing the starship analog of a hot-wire job?

For higher tech ships, most likely you're defeating biometrics, plus a
rather smart robot brain.  Unless you can steal startup information from
the owner, most likely you're talking hours or days of work, particularly
if kill switches have been installed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 08:59:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 03:59:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>
>For higher tech ships, most likely you're defeating 
>biometrics, plus a rather smart robot brain.  Unless you can 
>steal startup information from the owner, most likely you're 
>talking hours or days of work, particularly if kill switches 
>have been installed.
>
I have the feeling that an Imperial ability to commandeer 
your ship is a factor here.  Currently, the penalty for 
failing to obey orders when boarded has a variety of 
punishments, ranging from large fines, to loss of your 
license, loss of your ship (which may belong to your 
employer, not you), and probable jail time.  Even if they 
don't find anything else wrong.

There are probably locks of some sort.  But imagine if the 
crew was disabled by a malfunctioning life support system, 
and headed on a hazardous course.  Under your system, no 
rescue crew would be able to board normally, and if they did, 
they couldn't fly the ship.

I would bet that some locking system exists.  But probably 
not one that would then become more defensive if the locks 
were bypassed.  The locks are probably designed to defeat the 
majority of criminals, not those with sophisticated equipment 
(like the Imperial Navy).  It's probably coded into the 
ship's software by law -- even if they don't have the 
password or keys to get in, the Navy can override your ship's 
computer and seize control using simple, but sophisticated 
equipment when they board.

There might even be an interface that works through your 
transponder's software.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 09:03:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (P-O Bergstedt)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 11:03:17 +0200
Subject: [TML] Burn Heretic, Burn!
Message-ID: <3CA82255.1CACE976@berka.com>

After 102 votes, the Heresy IMTU poll is now closed.

In TATU (The Average Traveller Universe),
almost everyone is a heretic.

The result was: 
he++   23.53%
he+    51.96%
he     15.69%
he-     7.84%
he--    0.98%

Compare this result with previous poll:
http://zho.berka.com/polls.html

(The new poll is about Drop Tanks.)

  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN
/ * A o \_____/       \_____
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:24:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:24:11 +0800
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8A5CB.29530.200B430@localhost>

Hi all!

On 1 Apr 2002, at 3:59, John T. Kwon wrote:

> There are probably locks of some sort.  But imagine if the 
> crew was disabled by a malfunctioning life support system, 
> and headed on a hazardous course.  Under your system, no 
> rescue crew would be able to board normally, and if they did, 
> they couldn't fly the ship.
> 

Personally, I don't think that rescue ships would be all that likely 
anyway.  Salvage ships, maybe, but not rescue ships.

BUT, even if there were rescue ships, I bet they would have similar 
equipment to salvage ships (I'm thinking the beginning of /Aliens/ 
here) -- super-heavy-duty laser cutters, universal airlock adapters, 
the whole works.  If there really /is/ an emergency, and the rescue 
crew is authorized to enter the ship, they're not going to want to 
wait for the proper codes from Central Command and then for the 
locks to recognize them.  Parallel: In a car wreck, the paramedics 
don't try to find the right key, they just get out the Jaws of Life.  

In other words, I think that gaining access to a ship by pretending 
to be a legit authority would be quite hard, but blasting your way in, 
if you could first disable the crew, would be relatively easy.  I guess 
it depends on your final purpose...?

-- Rachel

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:51:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:51:48 PST
Subject: [TML] Splat gun
In-Reply-To: <197.49c174e.29d93b05@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20401.025148.6F4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>    Hi gang,
>    After seeing stats for one of these things someplace on-line, I got to 
> wondering just what exactly _IS_ an Aslan Splatgun anyhow?

Probably derived from the Centran splat gun. Find a copy of the
recently expanded re-issue of Christopher Anvil's "Pandora's Planet"
for an interesting story, and some examples of why Scouts have
nightmares. 


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:35:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:35:18 PST
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20020401084436.C5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Well, you actually *could* use EM fields to steer a high temp plasma
>> "plume" outside of the ship and retreive the cooled ions. <g>
>
> Not if you're looking to be stealthy!
>
> There is also the problem of pumping waste heat up to enormous
> temperatures, requiring something like 99.99% efficiency every step of
> the way.

Actually, if you are using a fusion reactor that involves magnetically
confined plasma, 8000 K is a quite *low* temp for the "exhaust" end of
the cycle. <g>


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:58:03 PST
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020401084647.D5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20401.025803.2u9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> On the other hand, a straight line course to the jump limit in a
>> direction at right angles to the line joining the start and end points
>> of the jump, and then accelerating at an angle to get the right vector
>> might be simpler. More time, but only two vectors to figure.
>
> Yes, it's simpler.  That's the course that ships lacking a navigator
> might take :)

Navigators prefer to minimize heading changes for some strange reason.
<g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:53:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:53:53 PST
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020401083839.B5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20401.025353.0o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> I'd say +/- 100 km/s is probably considered "good enough" most of
>> the time.
>
> For the destination system, yes.  Of course, if there is any leeway at
> all, freighter captains are probably going to arrive as "hot" as they
> can within those limits.  Time is money, and arriving with a 50 km/s
> inward vector instead of 0 saves about 3 hours.
>
> 3 hours doesn't necessarily sound like much out of a week's trip, but
> it does save about 5 Cr per dton of cargo and (probably more
> importantly) increases the chance of getting into port before a
> competitor does.

The problem is that if you were aiming for a point "ahead" of the
planet, and came out of jump late, your vector will be *away* from the
planet because you are now "behind" it. 

That is, your vector is pointed at where the planet was when you
expected to emerge from jump, which is behind where it is when you
*actually* come out of jump.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:03:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (P-O Bergstedt)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:03:29 +0200
Subject: [TML] GRUPS Traveller Reviews
Message-ID: <3CA85AA1.175A2553@berka.com>

Read some reviews of some new
GRUPS Traveller products at URL:
http://zho.berka.com/review.html

  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN
/ * A o \_____/       \_____
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:10:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 05:10:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] re: Real Life Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020330213337.009e8010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020401131058.13191.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Did somebody watch Jaws when they were not quite old
enough?  That would probably do it. :)

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I can't stand to be in water where I can't see the
> bottom.  I'm a basket 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:23:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 07:23:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] F15D Scorpion Recon Fighter TL 11
Message-ID: <3CA80B0E.6302.4EB743@localhost>

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A Recon fighter design for the Consort and Kiev, Thanks for the Inspiration Anthony



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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-disposition: inline
Content-description: Attachment information.

The following section of this message contains a file attachment
prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system,
you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

   ---- File information -----------
     File:  F15D Scorpion 15T Recon Fighter TL11.gtv
     Date:  1 Apr 2002, 7:21
     Size:  5184 bytes.
     Type:  Unknown

--Message-Boundary-11333
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--Message-Boundary-11333--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:30:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:30:54 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Playing around even more with the First In design sequence (hey, what else
am I supposed to do on a day like this?), I decided to calculate how the
number of places where complex animals (sentinent or non-sentinent) have
evolved are distributed over various world types.

I made a large (400.000 systems) data set, using a modifier of -11 to the
roll (in step 15) for icy rockballs with subsurface oceans. This is what I
came up with:

Subgiant :  1%
Nitrogen : 37%
Ammonia  : 20%
Desert   : 10%
Icy sub. : 11%
Earthlike: 21%

(ie 21% of all complex animals in the dataset evolved under Earthlike
conditions)

These numbers clearly do not match the OTU, since the most common forms of
advanced life there are evolved under Earthlike conditions (including all
of the major races).

I would be happy to try various modifications and see how they affect the
statistics, but I need something to aim for. How should advanced lifeforms
be distributed over the various world types?

Jon, all you need to do is to give me a set of percentages (as above), and
I'll happily tweak the modifiers to match those percentages.

A suggestion for a future reprint of GT: First In would be to include two
sets of modifiers for step 15: One that produces Traveller-like results,
and one that seems more in line with current science. To keep consistency
with the rest of the design sequence, the more realistic set would
probably be the default, while the Traveller-like set could be introduced
in a sidebar.

I think I may now call myself "rockhead"...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:40:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:40:59 +0200
Subject: [TML] Slightly OT: Transhuman space
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020330131738.009ec080@mindspring.com>
References: <20020330204047.4b56a9ad.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020330131738.009ec080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020401154059.1a5d3a2a.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Sleep when you're dead.  I haven't been able to determine if Warehouse
23 
> will deliver to the afterlife yet.  Damn fine book, and you can see why
i 
> want to adapt parts of it to Traveller.

I have now skimmed most of the book. Careful studies will have to wait
until I have properly studied what I really should study...  ;-)

I think I'll use this setting more or less as-is in order to introduce
some of my players to the joy of hard SF. If I tone down the most advanced
technologies a bit, things would be quite easy for newcomers to grasp.

Starting the game in 2041 would do the trick, focusing on the exposure of
the Ares conspiracy for starters, then more or less slowly (a few years at
a time) advance the campaign. This would allow all the developments to
come into focus, allowing exposure on every one of them.

Then, just for fun, I might throw in jump drive invention and the
encounter at Barnard's Star...  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 12:08:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:08:25 +0200
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <118.f28a399.29d90890@aol.com>
References: <118.f28a399.29d90890@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020401140825.473e1a87.jenry023@student.liu.se>

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> Probably because there are a lot more icy rockballs than there are
> Earthlike worlds.

Yes, absolutely. Also, icy rockballs are more likely to exist in older
star systems (around class M stars for instance), which increases the
complexity of native life.

Since canon doesn't have two thirds of all sentinent lifeforms living
under such conditions, the results are still strange to me.

These are my estimated probabilities of complex animal life (sentinent or
otherwise) on various world types:

Earthlike: 77%
Icy w/ subsurface: 46%
Nitrogen: 26%
Ammonia: 15%
Desert: 7%
Subgiant: 7%

If you want to tweak these numbers, what you need to do is to add
modifiers to the dice roll in step 15 of the design sequence.

Note: Since the design sequence is relatively complex, the exact numbers
should be taken with a grain of salt. In order to get better numbers, I
need to generate larger quantities of solar systems. I'll be happy to this
if you want better numbers.

> If you come up with an adjustment that seems right to you, let me 
> know - I'm told a reprint or second edition of First In is likely at
some
> point, so I'm assembling notes for changes to details of the world
> generation sequence.

Adding the following to Step 15 should do it:

"-X for icy rockballs with subsurface oceans"

where X is a number depending on the effect you desire.

X=0   Ten times more common than sentinence under Eartlike conditions
X=4   About five to six times more common
X=6   About three times more common
X=8   About 1.5 times more common
X=10  About 1.5 times LESS common (ie 0.67 times as common)
X=11  About 2.5 times LESS common (ie 0.4 times as common)

Note: The numbers above were relatively quickly generated, and are only to
be loosely trusted.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 12:12:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:12:23 +0200
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Timothy Little wrote:
<snip>
> Can a low-power organism afford power-hungry brain matter of the type
> you would expect for sentience?  If you're looking for an excuse, this
> should do.

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable explanation, thanks.  ;-)

Actually, the main reason I dislike the results is that they don't give
normal science-fiction settings. In a universe where the ideal habitat for
most sentinent races is an icy rockball, various classic SF stereotypes
don't fit in. In fact, in Traveller, most races are evolved under Eartlike
conditions, so the other numbers are also strange in that regard.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 14:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:13:17 -0500
Subject: [TML] 2 tons of beer and 4th place 8) (was CT Ship Design)
Message-ID: <OFCD639861.BF4D0240-ON85256B8E.004C0CE0@pheaa.org>







<snip>
>> about 7 months ago i entered the "Cortez" into Hot Rod Race. the Cortez
was
>> a modified Scout. well before the results where posted my company laid a
>> bunch of people off including me.
>>
</snip>
>>

>The Hot Rod race took place on the CT-Starships list.  The race results
were:
>                 Hellbent 20 pts
>                 Abrr Chatlqaf 19
>                 Princess Lucky 14
>                 Cortez 12
>                 Renown 10

WOO HOO! 4th place 8) i was so sure John and I would come in last. Not bad.
So you know Cortez is the scout ship of one of my NPC's Maria Vasquez. She
is a hot pilot and Johns char is a hot Engineer. between the two of them
nothing they can not do 8)

>Also, another quote re the Cortez...
--- In ct-starships@y..., "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@r...> wrote:
>> <snip>
>> My personal favourite design has to be Cortez, any ship that can stick
>> closely to the rules and still manage Jump-4, 5G  with 2 tons reserved
for
>> beer has to be a good design :)
WOO HOO!
I love it. if i can find a way to use this as my sig to the TML with out
spaming the rest of work with it ill do it 8) Besides you never work on a
hot rod with out beer 8)

Bill Lane

"My personal favourite design has to be Cortez, any ship that can stick
closely to the rules and still manage Jump-4, 5G  with 2 tons reserved for
beer has to be a good design :)" Jeff Greenly


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 14:32:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 09:32:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] City Class Frigate
Message-ID: <3CA86F98.CFB1CEB2@mindspring.com>

Be the first in your subsector to have a real Imperial Naval Warship
named after your city! Imagine the fun and hijinks when 75 sailors and
Marines drop into your daughters favorite club with 3 months of
accumulated pay. Send the name of your city, system and subsector to
Admiral Clarice X. Roman mailto:admiralroman@hotmail.com c/o the 100th
IN Fleet at Glisten, along with 0.02 Crimp.
Only the first twentyfour (24) cities to reply will have ships actually
named after them. The 0.02 Crimp fee is non-refundable. The Glisten
Naval Shipyard is not responsible for lost or delayed X-mail.

The keel for the original City Class Frigate "City of Son Son Solay" was
laid down in 1102 at the Bilstein Yards at Glisten/Glisten. A single
Squad Drop Tube allows insertion of up to 20 individuals, although
doctrine dictates that decoy capsules will be used to fill out a normal
15 man squad. Retrieval gigs are used as interface craft in combat
operations with the Armed launches performing non combat roles. 59 tons
of cargo allow extended patrols without resupply. The Secondary plant
powers the weapons and provides for an agility of two (2), unless the
beam Lasers are double fired, in which case the agility is one (1). The
City Class Frigate is most often seen in a task group of several ships
when the fleet is not massed for battle. Three squadrons serve with the
100th Fleet at Glisten. Ships are named for cities in the Spinward
Marches.

Craft ID:  City Class Frigate, TL 15, 1280.282 Mcr, Quantity discount
1152.254 MCr

 Hull:        1800/4500, Disp=2000, Config=5SL(Sphere), Armour=49G (3),
Loaded=23403.17, Unloaded=21652.58

 Power:    Primary 67/134, Fusion=18,000 Mw, Duration=720hrs/30 days,
Scoops, Purifiers(24 hours whole tank)
                Secondary 40/80, Fusion=10,800 Mw, Duration=72hrs/3
days,
                ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=1280hrs/53 days
 Loco:      90/180, Jump=4, 198/396 Maneuver=4G, Avionics-15 190kph,
Agility=0/2

 Comm:    Radio=System x2, Laser=System x2

 Sensors:  A-EMS (FrOb) x 2, Hi-Dnst-F (1km) x 2 , P-EMS (IntStlr) x 2 ,
Neutrino-E (10 Kw)  x 2
                Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=R  POP=R  PES=S  PEP=R

 Off:         20 Hardpoints, 20 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Bays:     100 ton Missile Bay-15 x1
                        Turrets:  Triple Laser-13     x 6 in 3 battery
                                      Triple Sand-10      x 4 in 4
battery
                        Missile magazine: HE=30 b/r, Nuclear=4 b/r
                         Total=1700 missiles. 1 b/r=50 missiles
                         Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Laser     5    -    -
                                           3
                             Missile   -   A    -
                                               1
                             Sand      4    -    -
                                           4

 Def:        Def DM= +7/9, Optimized Nuclear Damper-15 x1

 Control:  Computer=Model 7/fib w/ Circuit protection x 3,
Panels=Holographic Linked x 1823,  Large holo x 1,
               HUD holo x 30

 Accom:  Officers=14 Crew= 61 ( Bridge=4 Engineering=5 Gunners=26
Flight=14 Troops=14 Command=10 Steward=2)
               Small Staterooms=10, Bunks=70, Squad Drop Tube=1,
Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
               inertial comp, Airlocks x6

 Subcraft:  Retrieval gig x 2 (20 tons, Crew 3, TL 15), Armed Launch x 2
(20 tons, Crew 2, TL 15)

 Other:      Cargo=797.3 Kl/59.1 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=13619
Kl/1009 tons, ObjSize=Large
                One jump requires 6750 KL/500 tons of fuel


Author: Alan Spik

Canon notices: The Squad Drop tube is non canon.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
A man needs a mistress if only to break the monogamy
                                     -Unknown



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:07:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:07:36 +0100
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> A suggestion for a future reprint of GT: First In would be to include two
> sets of modifiers for step 15: One that produces Traveller-like results,
> and one that seems more in line with current science. To keep consistency
> with the rest of the design sequence, the more realistic set would
> probably be the default, while the Traveller-like set could be introduced
> in a sidebar.

This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might be.
Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in the
game universe are - IMO - dubious.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:14:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:14:56 GMT
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
Message-ID: <E16s3WK-0001Qf-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

I would like to see the document and give any comments if you please.

Beth
> Just finished going through what will be a rather long=20
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units=20
> in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may=20
> differ.
>=20
> But..  I need more input.  I've just moved a current day=20
> document a fair number of years into the future (out to TL10,=20
> so far), and I would like to take it a bit further, say TL12.
>=20
> I am interested in anyone's input concerning what might be=20
> standard operating procedure (instructions to individual=20
> soldiers, teams, and platoons).  Some of the detail I have is=20
> down to the items to carry.
>=20
> I am especially interested in what might be SOP in regards to=20
> weapons, employment of specific weapons (such as, "always use=20
> the plasma gun to break contact").
>=20
> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing=20
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages=20
> so far.
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:28:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:28:16 GMT
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
Message-ID: <E16s3jE-0001h7-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

Any chance of seeing these?

Beth

> I'd be interested to see this...
>=20
> In days past I used to write such manuals for a live-role-playing game=20
> based on 25th century space marines. These included a medical manual, EOD=
=20
> procedures and even the Uniform Code of Military Justice (a guaranteed=20
> cure for insommnia!).
>=20
> Hugs and kisses,
>=20
> Mexal,
>=20
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:49:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 07:49:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Real Life Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <20020401131058.13191.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020330213337.009e8010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401074834.009ecec0@mindspring.com>

At 05:10 AM 4/1/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Did somebody watch Jaws when they were not quite old
>enough?  That would probably do it. :)

No, I saw Jaws and went to the beach the next day.  In Santa Cruz, which is 
one of the biggest areas for Great Whites in the world.  I think sharks are 
tres cool.  I don't know what triggered this, it just *happened.*


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:12:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 08:12:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] re: Real Life Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401074834.009ecec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020401161227.27322.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

Well, after I saw Jaws, the deep end of a cloudy
swimming pool was almost too much.  :)

I can remember going to the beach with my parents as a
boy.  We would rent a catamaran.  On the Mississippi
coast they put posts in where the water gets over 4-5
feet deep at high tide.  I would panic and cry when my
parents wanted to go "past the posts" on the cat. 
Now, mind you, the deepest part of this chanel (in the
area we were) is about 13-15 feet at high tide.  And
the sharks are rarely if ever found between the beach
and the islands.

I think I am OK with the water now, but occasionally I
will still have a bit of anxiety.

ObTrav: I can imagine there are some who have panic
attacks on their first trip into space and even more
with their first trip into Jump.  Put one of these
NPC's on the Char's ship and a few minutes from the
Jump point he freaks out.  He will pay for the return,
but the other passengers don't want to waste the time.


Paul
--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 05:10 AM 4/1/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >Did somebody watch Jaws when they were not quite
> old
> >enough?  That would probably do it. :)
> 
> No, I saw Jaws and went to the beach the next day. 
> In Santa Cruz, which is 
> one of the biggest areas for Great Whites in the
> world.  I think sharks are 
> tres cool.  I don't know what triggered this, it
> just *happened.*


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:23:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:23:17 -0500
Subject: [TML] I must be a gearhead...
Message-ID: <200204011623.DDB00400@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was reading the FAS site, and they have this diatribe 
against low-yield earth penetrating nukes.  They say there's 
no way to build a weapon that would penetrate that deeply and 
still contain the burst.  Well, they put a link to the 
equations on the page, so I looked up the lowest yield of 
Davy Crockett, and the penetration of the GBU-28 (concrete 20 
feet, earth 100 feet), and it looks like I only need 60 feet 
of penetration.

So, if I wanted to kill a bunker, just put the bomb into the 
ground just short of the bunker and he's bunkmates with about 
4 kilotons of nuclear explosion.  A little venting from the 
entry path, but the retarc holds the rest in.

Sounds like a good missile for Traveller, eh?

Well, the person I'm arguing with at FAS says it isn't a very 
useful weapon.  Which brings me to another question, if 
you're opposed to nuclear weapons, why use a technical 
argument?  It would be better to stick to a moral/ethical 
objection, because if you give an engineer/gearhead enough 
money and time, virtually anything can be made to work.

Especially nuclear weapons and earth penetrators.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:46:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:46:56 +0100
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
References: <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>

> Actually, the main reason I dislike the results is that they don't give
> normal science-fiction settings. In a universe where the ideal habitat for
> most sentinent races is an icy rockball, various classic SF stereotypes
> don't fit in. In fact, in Traveller, most races are evolved under Eartlike
> conditions, so the other numbers are also strange in that regard.

I don't think that the presence of complex lifeforms in the oceans of an
Iceplanet, 10km+ under the surface, is likely to noticeably going to affect
the Traveller universe. It's not as if you are going to actually meet any of
them on a day to day basis.

Of course all the Major races evolved on Earthlike worlds... Its had to
develop a spacefaring civilisation then there is a kilometres thick ice
sheet between you and the stars (not that you'd even know they existed...)

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:51:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:51:51 -0500
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
Message-ID: <200204011651.DDB04154@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I like to have robots, but there's a certain tedium to Book 
8.  So far, I've resorted to just "saying" that a robot is a 
certain way.  I don't really like the Star Wars robots, but 
there is a certain edge to the robots as presented in AI 
(where they are "nearly" like us, but still imperfect).

How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:56:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:56:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] does that make me an apostate?
Message-ID: <200204011656.DDB04760@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

As I've gotten older, I've just gotten to doing some 
equipment by "it's about this long, about this heavy, etc.."

I've done the same thing with NPCs.

Sometimes FFS drives me nuts. 

I seem to be able to write about some things better if I just 
say things are "just so".

After all, can anyone out there take any of the robot design 
sequences and come up with Gigolo Joe?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:15:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:15:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017681340.6838.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
> 
> Actually, if you are using a fusion reactor that involves magnetically
> confined plasma, 8000 K is a quite *low* temp for the "exhaust" end of
> the cycle. <g>.

The problem is waste heat from on-board systems, not direct inefficiencies of
power production.  For example, life support produces heat equal to its power
consumption, at a normal temperature of around 300K.

Of course, the big power consumption of a ship is for drives and weapons, both
of which will have unknown (but lower) heat output.  Biggest problem is
weapons, which have somewhat canon efficiencies, that are rather low.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:29:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:29:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017682194.5758.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> I have the feeling that an Imperial ability to commandeer 
> your ship is a factor here.  Currently, the penalty for 
> failing to obey orders when boarded has a variety of 
> punishments, ranging from large fines, to loss of your 
> license, loss of your ship (which may belong to your 
> employer, not you), and probable jail time.  Even if they 
> don't find anything else wrong.

Huh?  How is this relevant?
> 
> There are probably locks of some sort.  But imagine if the 
> crew was disabled by a malfunctioning life support system, 
> and headed on a hazardous course.  Under your system, no 
> rescue crew would be able to board normally, and if they did, 
> they couldn't fly the ship.

First of all, locks designed to be used in port are presumably already disabled
after you've taken off.  Secondly, most rescue/patrol craft will be able to
deal with a ship with impaired drives anyway, just push it into a more sensible
orbit.
> 
> I would bet that some locking system exists.  But probably 
> not one that would then become more defensive if the locks 
> were bypassed.

It depends on where you plan on landing.  Free traders who land on insecure
worlds probably have pretty extensive security, bulk cargo carriers who never
leave the mains probably have rather limited security.

> The locks are probably designed to defeat the 
> majority of criminals, not those with sophisticated equipment 
> (like the Imperial Navy).  It's probably coded into the 
> ship's software by law -- even if they don't have the 
> password or keys to get in, the Navy can override your ship's 
> computer and seize control using simple, but sophisticated 
> equipment when they board.

Doubtful.  The IN can seize control via the simple, but sophisticated equipment
known as guns.
> 
> There might even be an interface that works through your 
> transponder's software.

Even less likely.  Information like that can be stolen, and if so, is vastly
more useful to terrorists and criminals than it could ever be to the Navy. 
Again, the Navy can seize control through the exotic technique of 'superior
firepower'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:33:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 12:33:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>

MJD said:
>This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
>First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might be.
>Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in the
>game universe are - IMO - dubious.

I take a much less dour outlook than MJD.  I haven't read it, but so many 
people keep telling me how great 'First In' is that I think it was 
absolutely a worthwhile book and intend to either buy a reprint/second 
edition or get the original from Traveller Trader at Downport.com.  Sounds 
like the future edition will be updated with Mr. Rydholm's suggestions.

Traveller books have been in need of various "fixing" since at least the 
first edition of Book 5 - High Guard.  If GDW had decided not to fix that 
with a second edition, we'd be worse off.  I think that if there's any 
lesson to be learned from these instances, it's that you should always try 
to do more playtesting, analysis, debugging, copy editing, and editing 
before releasing a product.  Imperium Games being the poster child for that 
need.

Thanks Jen, for doing a very useful and interesting exercise with the 
distribution of 'First In' world gen results.  That sound you weren't 
hearing was hard drives saving the info you posted.  And thanks to the 
author of 'First In' for seeking constructive criticism and incorporating 
it into your work.  It's bemusing that your response to the criticism was 
so mature and professional, when so many of the most famous game authors of 
other games would have been defensive and even combative if placed in your 
shoes.  I know they would, because I've seen them placed in your 
shoes.  From its start, Traveller seems to involve a better class of 
writers.  (We'll leave certain obvious exceptions out of that statement.  :-)

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:37:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:37:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] I just found the psionics institute
Message-ID: <200204011737.DDD02290@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.remoteviewing.com/

The company is named Psi-Tech.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:41:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 12:41:33 EST
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>

> This is what happens when people decide to "fix" 
> Traveller. First In does not produce Traveller 
> worlds - however realistic it might be. Design 
> systems that do not allow you to create what already 
> exists in the game universe are - IMO - dubious.

It may surprise you to learn that I entirely agree
with you.

First In had two main design goals: realism and support
for Classic Traveller world generation.

Unfortunately, the further I went the more I discovered
that the two were completely incompatible. CT worldgen
(including the extended system in Book 6) simply breaks
the laws of physics. Repeatedly. In ways that are very
hard to gloss over.

My response was to make "realistic" the default setting,
and include a number of notes demonstrating how to go
about something more Classic in style if that was to
your taste. In retrospect that was probably the wrong
strategy. At the time I wasn't sure what the biggest
part of the audience would be - long-time Traveller
players or newcomers. Clearly, I guessed wrong.

If First In goes to a second edition, I think the world
design sequence will default to something much more
like Book 6 worldgen, with "realism notes" allowing the
referee to flesh things out or substitute more realistic
steps to taste. (About the only thing that I would "fix"
in the default sequence would be the formula for world
surface temperature in Book 6, which is not only wrong,
but wrong in such a way that it actually makes Book 6
much harder to use.)

I suspect that would make First In considerably easier
for long-time Traveller fans to use in their established
Traveller universes - while still allowing folks who
roll their own to be as realistic as they choose.

---
Jon F. Zeigler
JFZeigler@aol.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:45:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:45:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020316125548.A20449@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Mar 16, 2002 12:55:48 PM
Message-ID: <200204011745.g31Hji001663@localhost.uia.net>

As I've mentioned before, I've been toying w/ the idea of
inertial suppression as a means of fast accelleration in an
sf-rpg I'm *slowly* putting together w/ the help of some
friends. However, there's some conflict over how to achieve
this (I can email two articles which hint at the scientific
premise to anyone who's interested). There's also the problem
of unintended consequences. Since inertial suppression also
exists in Traveller (so that ships can accellerate at 6G
w/o squashing their crews), it might be a good idea to
consider these consequences for a bit.

I wrote in an earlier post that onboard a ship where inertia
was being supressed:
> one crewmember shoving another would be like a
> feather shoving a feather. They would feel exactly the same thing
> and would react with their environment in exactly the same way,
> because apparent mass in reduced for the entire environment,
> including both of them.

Tim countered:
> So long as the forces are also reduced, no problem.  e.g. Suppose a
> person has their mass reduced by a factor of 1000.  Of course, such
> force ultimately comes from chemical energies.  But then you have to
> worry about activation energies of internal chemical processes
> necessary to life.  OK, so handwave them to near-zero as well.  So all
> chemical bonds must be 1000 times weaker to match the mass reduction.
> Furthermore, the charge on the electron and proton must be shifted
> downward by the same factor of 1000, or atoms are no longer stable at
> their normal size.  Likewise the strength of the strong nuclear force
> must be downshifted.
> 
> So, what does this mean for sunlight impinging upon the spacecraft?
> Each visible photon from the sun now vastly exceeds the binding energy
> of atoms in the hull, and behaves very much like an intense x-ray
> source capable of vaporizing any material.
> 
> Now, the energies of photons emitted *inside* the ship are 1000 times
> lower due to lower atomic transition energies, and hence have
> wavelengths 1000 times longer.  This plays absolute hell with all
> sorts of physical processes, so you'd better lower Planck's constant
> by a factor of 1000 while you're at it to fix this up.

Basically, if I read him right, what he appears to be saying is that
if you lower inertia in a given space by 99%, people in that area will
have much more strength than they're used to having, because the
chemical reactions going on in their bodies which generate energy
will still be generating as much energy, but for a much smaller
apparent mass, meaning that they'll be able to perform extrodinary
feats (and quite possibly hurt themselves), and that the only way
around this is to downscale everything else, which generates a
very strange and inconsistent reality.

What do other people think about this argument?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:45:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:45:14 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <00d001c1d9a5$0cff6560$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> I take a much less dour outlook than MJD.

I didn't mean to sound *that* negative! It's just that part of the canon
problem with Traveller is the endless series of canon-fixes that keep
appearing, giving the canonistas something to cannonade one another about.
Each fix seems to create more problems than it solves!

>
> Traveller books have been in need of various "fixing" since at least the
> first edition of Book 5 - High Guard.  If GDW had decided not to fix that
> with a second edition, we'd be worse off.  I think that if there's any
> lesson to be learned from these instances, it's that you should always try
> to do more playtesting, analysis, debugging, copy editing, and editing
> before releasing a product.  Imperium Games being the poster child for
that
> need.

Oh yes! Can't argue there. Hence the T20 delay...

>
> Thanks Jen, for doing a very useful and interesting exercise with the
> distribution of 'First In' world gen results.  That sound you weren't
> hearing was hard drives saving the info you posted.  And thanks to the
> author of 'First In' for seeking constructive criticism and incorporating
> it into your work.  It's bemusing that your response to the criticism was
> so mature and professional, when so many of the most famous game authors
of
> other games would have been defensive and even combative if placed in your
> shoes.  I know they would, because I've seen them placed in your
> shoes.  From its start, Traveller seems to involve a better class of
> writers.  (We'll leave certain obvious exceptions out of that statement.
:-)
>

Like whom?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:49:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:49:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
Message-ID: <200204011749.DDD03964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
effects when you modify Planck's constant.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:51:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:51:18 +0100
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00e301c1d9a5$e66a4540$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>>
> If First In goes to a second edition, I think the world
> design sequence will default to something much more
> like Book 6 worldgen, with "realism notes" allowing the
> referee to flesh things out or substitute more realistic
> steps to taste. (About the only thing that I would "fix"
> in the default sequence would be the formula for world
> surface temperature in Book 6, which is not only wrong,
> but wrong in such a way that it actually makes Book 6
> much harder to use.)
>
> I suspect that would make First In considerably easier
> for long-time Traveller fans to use in their established
> Traveller universes - while still allowing folks who
> roll their own to be as realistic as they choose.

Can't argue with any of this. I want realism in worldgeneration (I'm still
an engineer by mindset) but I also want compatibility with existing
unrealism. Is that unreasonable or what?? Call me hard to please if you
will... But anyway, I wouldn't worry about what I said too much. I like
First In overall...
MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:19:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 10:19:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] I just found the psionics institute
References: <200204011737.DDD02290@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8A4BE.6B18B1F0@attbi.com>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> http://www.remoteviewing.com/
> 
> The company is named Psi-Tech.

"Found?", Major Ed Dames And Psi Tech are major guests on the 
Art Bell Show. "Sides Psi Tech claims "anyone can do remote
viewing", and as we know the Psi roll is for PCs only....

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:23:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:23:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017685386.1051.ajackson@ping>

JFZeigler@aol.com writes:

> First In had two main design goals: realism and support
> for Classic Traveller world generation.
> 
> Unfortunately, the further I went the more I discovered
> that the two were completely incompatible. CT worldgen
> (including the extended system in Book 6) simply breaks
> the laws of physics. Repeatedly. In ways that are very
> hard to gloss over.

With the exception of small worlds with breathable atmospheres, what's so bad
about CT worlds?  All you need to do to produce traveller-like worlds is have a
system that produces around a hundred worlds per hex, and then picks the
lifelike one ;)

I actually put together something more or less like this, a while back; I
figured out based on the general world generator the probable distribution of
certain characteristics for earthlike worlds, and thus you can simply directly
roll up the 1% of worlds that are interesting.  You'd need to add rules for
generating any non-earthlike worlds (say, 50% chance of an earthlike world, 50%
chance for a non-earthlike middle-zone terrestrial world), but that's not too
hard.

http://maps.grandsurvey.com/hero/worlds.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:42:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:42:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] Comm check
Message-ID: <20020401.104247.-84283.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:10:39 -0600 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
> ping ping ping ping ping
> 
> Here we go again.
> 
> ISS Agena at the outer beacon.

Welcome Agena, good to see you again.
This is the IS Virgin Isle (5,000 dton luxury resort vessel), resounding
with two pings

<ping, ping>

Agena, perhaps this visit you'll  swing by for a visit.
I'm 90 degrees starboard, parked just outside marker two, range 2,000 kl.

Don't forget, our luxurious suites, casino, Jacuzzi's, health club,
exotic clubs, glorious dining, and we mustn't forget Andrea's Place. All
here waiting for you the weary traveller.


.--.   ...       .----   .----   -....   ---...   ----.       ..      
.--   ..   .-..   .-..       .--   .-   .-..   -.-       -...   .   ..-. 
 ---   .-.   .       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..       ..  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   .-   -.   -..       ---   ..-.       -
  ....   .       .-..   ..   ...-   ..   -.   --.   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:45:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:45:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV16h3lrGS1DknvCes0001cd0f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>

Bill Scheets aka Tex asks how hard is it to steal a grounded or docked 
starship IYTU.

My results vary.  In my first Traveller game, the entire small group 
decided they needed to boost planet and do it right away.  Confident that 
Laning's RPG would be just as fast and loose as everyone else's in our 
gaming club, they hopped the starport fencing and began strolling toward 
their nearby scout ship that was under guard while they were being 
investigated for certain previous actions.

Only to be confronted by a second and a third fence.  Sheer luck dictated 
that no guards were being attentive to their security cams and no patrols 
happened by.  But you'd think the sight of three fences, razor wire, and 
guard towers would tip them off that this was going to be a nontrivial 
task.  Aha! they say, only some fences and a guard tower, This will be 
easy.  Laning groans and looks at them, shaking his head.  Misreading these 
signs from the referee, they are even further emboldened.

At the airlock to the scout, I decide the best thing is to have the guard 
doing sentry duty aboard the ship should come out to talk to them, and give 
them a chance to talk their out of this.  Or at least talk their into 
reducing into a minor misdemeanor.  As soon as the door begins opening they 
all shoot him.

This was an early session of my game, and I really wanted to attract the 
players to return for more sessions in the future by making it fun for 
them.  Big, big mistake.  I figured the best thing was just let them take 
off, escape orbit, jump out, and assume the life of fugitives.  Well, if 
you let your players bully you once, they're only going to run even more 
amok in the future.  That game did not last long.  In other Traveller 
gaming, my universe has included all the ultratechnological, ultraparanoid, 
doublecheck and doublesafeguards that owners and insurers could think of 
against starships being damaged or stolen.  Just as you'd expect for 
something worth hundreds of millions of credits.

If that same party tried that same stunt again, I'd have the guards at the 
fence shoot them with tranq and they'd wake up in jail.

The example I gave was for a starship they already "owned" (technically, 
the retired scout was in the reserves and was responsible for the ship as 
property of the Imperial Scout Service).  There would be voice and keyboard 
commands at the airlock exterior, interior, engineering, and bridge 
hatchways.  Voiceprint and thumbprint verification required.  Piloting and 
engineering controls would have had the same requirements again.  An 
already-authorized and verified person on the interior could override the 
authorization process at the airlock so that routine embarkation and 
disembarkation of passengers and crew would not be cumbersome.  If set the 
shipboard security system is set to higher states of alert, then more than 
one person is required to get past authorization checkpoints, and/or more 
secret security codes must be used.  A ship belonging to the ISS in that 
situation would have been handled by the local legal authorities requesting 
the ISS help them.  The ISS would have had the pilot's normal security 
programs temporarily suspended and inaccessible, and replaced them with 
their own.  They have tools and overrides of their own for just this sort 
of situation.

If the guard who was aboard the ship had wanted to talk to the PCs when 
they reached his airlock, he would have just activated an intercom and 
spoken to them from the bridge, while waiting for the starport's SWAT team 
to arrive.  If the PCs had brought weapons or explosives capable of 
breaching the hull of the ship and gaining access, there would be automatic 
security programs would have taken over to incapacitate the 
boarders.  Including, lighting, temperature controls, random and extreme 
variations in the artificial gravity grid (from weightless state to 
negative one gee to positive one gee then back to negative one gee, etc.), 
locking down all interior and exterior hatches, and even evacuating air 
from different spaces.  Each individual grav plate is separately 
controlled, and there are preprogrammed routines for turning off all grav 
plates in a corridor except one which is turned to maximum, and sequencing 
which plate is turned to maximum so as to pull someone in the corridor to 
one end or the other of it.  With sufficiently high-powered grav plates, 
someone can be thrown into an airlock, for instance.

Insurance companies and mortgage companies insist upon certain security 
precautions for ships, and these must be thoroughly inspected during annual 
maintenance.  Most security systems can be controlled by anyone who knows a 
username and password, and their are heirarchical levels of security.  For 
instance, passengers can set a few security options for their own cabins, 
crew can set security options on low berths, etc. and the captain can 
override those settings and even lock out those individual users, and the 
owner can override the captain.  I rely on simple password and username 
because they are fast and only require either spoken or typed input from 
personnel.  Personnel who might be depending for their lives on getting 
fast access to security and controlling it.  There are also many closed 
circuit, neural activitiy sensors, and other sensors used to determine 
whether hatches are open or shut, bulkheads or hull is breached, and so 
on.  Security console(s) located on the bridge.

If the 'Alien' from the movie boarded my ship, I'd be able to pull all the 
crew to the bridge or main engineering control station, open the rest of 
the ship to vacuum, and read various sensors to know the precise location 
of the alien.  Hiding in ductwork in the ceiling would not make a 
significant difference.  If unable to throw the alien into open space by 
playing games with accelerating/decelerating the ship, gravity controls and 
air pressure, then a complete set of vacc suits for crew is kept in the 
ship's locker, accessible only from the bridge, as are weapons.  Subsequent 
events to be determined by the referee.  :->

A ship with maneuver-1 would typically only have internal artificial 
gravity of one gee.  This would be sufficient to deal with most unwanted 
boarders, even if only the ship's automated security routines are triggered 
and there is no crew aboard.  But it wouldn't be much deterrent to the 
'Alien'.  Ships with maneuver-6 would have internal gravity to match, and 
be able to hurl an unwanted boarder around from positive six gees to 
negative six gees.

If thieves manage to take control of the ship enough to lift off from 
planet, they'll still have to deal with starport and orbital traffic 
control.  This will include knowing what identifying call sign they are 
assigned, filing a flight plan, and getting clearances.  A docked ship will 
also have its security system linked to the starport, and if the security 
is triggered at any point, the starport security will immediately be 
alerted.  The thief will still have to somehow evade starport, COACC, and 
Imperial facilities, in most systems.  Think satellites, missiles, deep 
meson guns, and SDBs.

Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no 
scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the 
fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world 
in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL 13 
COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much less 
likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:58:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:58:21 EST
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <12d.f1855a6.29da07cd@aol.com>

I've been following the debate over the "First In" design sequence with 
interest. Part of the "problem" comes, I suspect, from an assumption that any 
world can develop a complex ecosystem.

This is unlikely since the complexity of the ecosystem is likely to be 
related to the available food sources at the bottom of the food chain. These 
will be severely limited on an Ice ball, even an old one. Hence the easy way 
round the problem is to cap the positive modifiers available for non-ocean 
worlds. I'd suggest +6 is a suitable number, altough I'm not an expert on 
First In so other numbres might be more suitable. 

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:13:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:13:40 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <F198zoDtLvggeHVTugl000061ac@hotmail.com>

>Can't argue with any of this. I want realism in worldgeneration (I'm >still 
>an engineer by mindset) but I also want compatibility with >existing 
>unrealism. Is that unreasonable or what??

Not really. In programing it's called being bug compatible...

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Johnny)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:14:52 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #365
References: <20020331161119.260AC279E7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c1d9b9$e469ca40$6501a8c0@yucca.net>

On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 23:32:40 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> Just finished going through what will be a rather long 
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units 
> in Traveller.  
> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing 
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages 
> so far.

I'm a lurker, but I'd be willing to reveiw it too. gamersvault@yucca.net 

- Johnny


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:29:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:29:32 -0700
Subject: [TML] GRUPS Traveller Reviews
References: <3CA85AA1.175A2553@berka.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8C32C.7020903@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

P-O Bergstedt wrote:
> Read some reviews of some new
> GRUPS Traveller products at URL:
> http://zho.berka.com/review.html

Aren't all grups reviews supposed to start 'Bonk bonk onna head!' ?? ;-)

> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:56:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:56:47 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <00d001c1d9a5$0cff6560$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>

MJD quotes and then asks:
> >From its start, Traveller seems to involve a better class of
> > writers.  (We'll leave certain obvious exceptions out of that statement.
>:-)
> >
>
>Like whom?

I mostly had the aforementioned Imperium Games in mind.  :-<

Thanks for setting me straight on your "level of dourness".  And I really 
loved your little exposition about "canonistas" and "canonades".  Keep up 
the good writing.  :->

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:57:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:57:58 -0700
Subject: [TML] room clearing
References: <200203312207.DBP01462@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8C9D6.9000605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> The only problem I have with the new room clearing technique 
> is that if people are expecting you, then all they need is a 
> long burst fire (belt fed) to keep you out of the room.
> 
> The new technique involves a team of 4 flowing into the room 
> and moving left or right as they flow in and occupy corners 
> of the room by flowing along the walls.
> 
> Might make an interesting scenario to game out using ACQ.
> 
> If the people flowing into the room have more actions per 
> combat round than the people occupying the room, it might 
> work. 
> 
> The use of grenades is now an exception in room clearing.  I 
> do remember throwing a simulator into a closet in MOUT 
> training, and being declared a casualty.  Maybe they have 
> something there.

I wonder how this compares, to, say, standard SWAT protocol for the 
same. They make extensive use of flashbangs (Presumably the 'stun 
grenade' mentioned in the link.

Presumably they are less likely to encounter return fire than soldiers 
clearing a room in a battle, but there's also the rather tricky (and 
now, all too common) mingling of non-combatants and combatants in 
today's battles.

Mis-calculate where enemy fire is coming from in a large building, and 
you could burst into the room next door, filled with refugees instead of 
bad guys.

All I can say is I DON'T want to be the poor sucker taking that #1 position.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:07:05 -0700
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <3CA8CBF9.3080002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Robert Houghton wrote:

> Actully I once saw a Catalina Flying Boat someone had refitted as a 
> mobile home winnebago style...thought this was as close to perfect as 
> you could get...if you could afford it...prolly only a little bit more 
> expensive as living on a boat and getting away for the weekend would be 
> a lot easier.

One reason that if I were to get filthy rich enough to afford it, I 
would get my own airplane: A C-130 outfitted as a flying RV.

They can land just about anywhere, even on unimproved runways, have a 
long range, parts are readily available, they're damn near 
indestructible, and there's a LOT of room.

I'm picturing two decks: a living deck and a garage deck, where you park 
your car/boat/atv's, hell you could carry along an ultralight asa 
'dingy' ;-)...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:22:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:22:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012122.DDL00281@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
>Subject: Re: [TML] room clearing  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>All I can say is I DON'T want to be the poor sucker taking 
that #1 position.
>

The more I think about it, the more I think it relies on 
having four people who are all well-practiced.  If you can 
all pour through the door before anyone inside can really 
react, it might work.  

Door charge set by #4 man blows door 
#1 man moves in, keeping back to the wall, moving to far 
right corner
#2 man buttonhooks to left near corner
#3 man right to right near corner
#4 straight left to far corner

Short bursts at any targets. Enter room with rifle shouldered.

The rapid pace is what is supposed to work here. Might be 
different in zero-g.

If you're slow, however, or unfamiliar, or get mixed up, 
you're going to get shredded.  I would bet that even an 
experienced team should practice this drill if they hope to 
pull it off.  For boarding, I would bet that the team might 
even do a drill on a stateroom or airlock on their own ship 
prior to boarding your ship.  Plus, they would call up 
deckplans and study them.

The other thing they would have going for them if they don't 
throw grenades (which are indiscriminate) is that they can 
enter multiple ingress points on the ship, with a lower rate 
of fratricide.  They can use the portable hull breaching/pier 
demolition charge to get into the ship.  Let's say two four 
man teams at each entry point, three entry points on a 400-
ton ship.  That's 24 men pouring into the ship without going 
through airlocks.

Looks like throwing grenades is for bunkers and for breaking 
contact.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:24:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:24:26 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <002401c1d9c3$ac6b2e40$6e9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >Like whom?
>
> I mostly had the aforementioned Imperium Games in mind.  :-<

Aha. My own pet hate is Imperium Games' editorial system, which actually
insterted spelling mistakes into my work! Spellchecker allowed to run
without supervision, I guess. Some of the writing was good. And some of it
set off the depressurisation alarms, it sucked so bad.

>
> Thanks for setting me straight on your "level of dourness".  And I really
> loved your little exposition about "canonistas" and "canonades".  Keep up
> the good writing.  :->
>

We aim to please... or is that shoot to kill?

Guess I'm just on a bit of a hair-trigger about all the people wanting me/us
to "fix" this or that about the Traveller universe, TNE, or GURPS Trav. Fix
it enough times and it'll be something completely different to what you
started with. Like my computer...

Regards

MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:40:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:40 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <memo.163716@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3CA8C9D6.9000605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Greetings dear hearts.

It's about 10 years since I was taught this... no, more, it was 1987...

The British Army method is: -

2-man entry team with 'mousehole' charge, blows a hole in outside wall of 
building (we don't come in the front door).

Someone chucks a grenade in, closely followed by a 2nd 2-man team 
who charge in through the hole, shooting.

Inside, working in two 2-man teams, you alternate between doing the 
grenade chucking and the charging in.

Of course, this method is only used if you don't care about the survival 
of anyone inside, or indeed much of the house itself!

The alternate method used for hostage rescue makes use of flash-bangs 
rather than frags, and shooting only occurs when a target has been 
positively identified.

Everybody, at least if you're infantry, learns the first, explosive 
method. The other one takes a lot of practice to get right...

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:44:04 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <3CA8CBF9.3080002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com>
 <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>

Living on an airplane would not be fun.  All that loud buzzing.  And the 
bad air.  Yuck.

My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.

I like to throw in people living out the Traveller version of this dream 
wandering from planet to planet, living on their converted merchant.  The 
more oft-encountered version of people living an imitation of this dream is 
the crew of a merchant that is family, or like a family together.  They 
still need to hustle for the credits to pay off the bank, keep the ship 
fuelled and maintained, etc.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:48:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:48:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

(Megan Robertson)  says
>Subject: Re: [TML] room clearing  
>
>The British Army method is: -
>
>2-man entry team with 'mousehole' charge, blows a hole in 
>outside wall of building (we don't come in the front door).
>
>Someone chucks a grenade in, closely followed by a 2nd 2-man 
>team who charge in through the hole, shooting.
>
>Inside, working in two 2-man teams, you alternate between 
>doing the grenade chucking and the charging in.
>

Yes, that's very similar to what was SOP just prior to the 
last technique.  What you describe above is what is known as 
Battle Drill #6.

Evidently there are problems with frags, and with two men 
trying to go in simultaneously.  There was a determination 
that two men are too few to handle things in a room if even 
one person is left alive after the grenade.  Three is now the 
minimum, and four is considered ideal.

And no frags!
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:52:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:52:37 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <000001c1d9c7$899aafe0$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>

Warren Buffett didn't seem to mind...

Matthew W. Helton


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of laning
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 15:44
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)

Living on an airplane would not be fun.  All that loud buzzing.  And the

bad air.  Yuck.

My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.

I like to throw in people living out the Traveller version of this dream

wandering from planet to planet, living on their converted merchant.
The 
more oft-encountered version of people living an imitation of this dream
is 
the crew of a merchant that is family, or like a family together.  They 
still need to hustle for the credits to pay off the bank, keep the ship 
fuelled and maintained, etc.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:52:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:52:59 +1000
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020401084436.C5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020402075259.B9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, if you are using a fusion reactor that involves
> magnetically confined plasma, 8000 K is a quite *low* temp for the
> "exhaust" end of the cycle. <g>

Yeah -- I wasn't actually counting the reactor as a direct source of
waste heat, since it has to be at least 99.99% efficient to provide
sufficiently high-quality power for pumping the *rest* of the waste
heat.

The problem comes with all the other ship's systems, the ones that
*use* the power provided by the reactor.  Obviously in stealth mode
you aren't thrusting or using weapons, but there's still environmental
support, sensors, control systems, LHyd cryo maintenance, and no doubt
hundreds of little things.  All of these would produce very low-grade
heat; probably at or near 300K.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:55:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:55:59 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <001f01c1d9c8$14f2af20$629193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> 
> My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
> twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.
> 
>

I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air force.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:08:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:08:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012122.DDL00281@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164502.02811320@pop.wizard.net>

Grenades are still for room clearing.  You just have to be judicious about 
using up your entire supply before you use up rooms that need to be cleared.

You also, as the link pointed out, have to be careful about not using 
powerful grenades in structures that will collapse.

And, of course you have to be careful to not clear a room that happens to 
include your own guys, or be in a room being cleared by your own guys.

No matter what specific drill you work out, speed and shock are still what 
you need to concentrate on using.  And judgment, heh.  The company 
commander's recommended room clearing drill seems effective regardless of 
its other attributes for three reasons.

(1) He gets a lot of people through the door in an extremely short 
time.  (Speed)
(2) He has a lot of people in the room all at once, each with automatic 
weapon as well as other fighting ability.  (Shock)
(3) The room clearing team has done a lot of practice and rehearsal.  (That 
makes any system work better.)

One other thing I'd like to note.  His drill assumes that you have the 
hallway(s) completely secured already.  As I recall, in European operations 
in WW2, things were often moving too quickly to have that luxury.  Or there 
weren't enough troops for it.

It all depends on the nature of the enemy and the nature of the 
terrain.  If the enemy is Nazi soldiers and the terrain is abandoned 
buildings constructed with strong materials and thick walls, then the "old 
battle drill" might work better.  If the enemy is militia and possibly has 
civilians nearby and the terrain is flimsily constructed buildings that 
sometimes have trouble with high winds, then his new battle drill might be 
better.

If I'm stuck defending a building that is being cleared by an enemy that 
has the superiority of force that the company commander seems to be 
implicitly assuming, then I would choose to withdraw from the building and 
pick a fight at a better time and place.  So yeah, his battle drill will 
succeed quite nicely at securing every room in the building.

If I'm clearing rooms with TL 12+ troops, then I think I'd rely a lot on 
neural activity sensors and advanced night vision that can see IR images 
through walls, depending on wall thickness.  My doctrine would be to have 
some assault troops with lots of personal armor protection do the room by 
room part, after less heavily armored troops secure the perimeter of the 
building or at least part of the perimeter.  I'd also try to use tranq gas 
or riot gas.  IIRC, US troops in Viet Nam found that CS was very handy for 
clearing rooms without increasing the number of civilian casualties even 
higher than it was already climbing.  If there was very little chance of 
civilians in the building, then I'd go with stun or frag grenades, 
depending on the structure.  Or maybe just lob some white phosphorous RAM 
grenades in from the street and shoot anyone who flees the burning building 
as it collapses.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:05:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:05:32 +1000
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20401.025353.0o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020401083839.B5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20401.025353.0o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> The problem is that if you were aiming for a point "ahead" of the
> planet, and came out of jump late, your vector will be *away* from the
> planet because you are now "behind" it. 

Oh, no!  Here we go with the discussion about which frame of reference
the jump emergence point follows, and the dynamics of moving 100D
limits :(

IMTU, jump emergence point is stationary with respect to the ship's
vector on jump entry.  Hence if the ship arrives late with an
inward-bound velocity vector, it will precipitate out on the planet's
100D limit.  This is even standard practice IMTU.


As far as I can see, there are three main contenders for how the jump
exit point moves:

1) Stationary with respect to the ship's entry vector.  This is the
one I use.  (However, it is not stationary in the relativistic sense,
just in a Galilean sense based on jumpspace)

2) Stationary wrt an absolute "jumpspace" frame of reference.  In
general, this will be moving at least a hundred kilometres per second
relative to most stars, and hence plotting an exit position is only
possible along a track a few million kilometres long due to time
variation in jump.  This seems to be the one you are assuming, but
contradicts the canonical accuracy of jump plotting so I discard it.

3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:11:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:11:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20020402075259.B9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017699082.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> The problem comes with all the other ship's systems, the ones that
> *use* the power provided by the reactor.  Obviously in stealth mode
> you aren't thrusting or using weapons, but there's still environmental
> support, sensors, control systems, LHyd cryo maintenance, and no doubt
> hundreds of little things.  All of these would produce very low-grade
> heat; probably at or near 300K.

Of course, rules notwithstanding, there's no real reason to assume that a ship
that's stealthy when idle is also stealthy when accelerating.  I suspect that
secondary systems (everything but active sensors, weapons, and drives) don't
have a routine power consumption of more than around .1 kW/dton, which means a
100 dton ship (for a sphere, 7 meter radius, cross-section 150 m^2 or so)
receives more sunlight than the amount of waste heat it needs to go with (by a
factor of about 20), which is sufficient to let it basically pump all of its
waste heat away in a very narrow angle.

The tricky part here is that you'll need a cryogenically cooled hull...plus
really really optimistic solar converters. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:12:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:12:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020401221258.43908.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com>

--0-1646151845-1017699178=:43005
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


 >> And no frags!  & 4 man teams

What about using stun grenades (flash/bangs?)  Are those useful at all?



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send greetings for Easter,  Passover
--0-1646151845-1017699178=:43005
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<P>&nbsp;&gt;&gt; And no frags!&nbsp; &amp; 4 man teams<BR><BR>What about using stun grenades (flash/bangs?)&nbsp; Are those useful at all?</P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br>
<a href="$rd_url/welcome/?http://greetings.yahoo.com">Yahoo! Greetings</a> - send greetings for <a href="$rd_url/welcome/?http://greetings.yahoo.com/browse/Holidays/Easter/">Easter</a>, <a href="$rd_url/welcome/?http://greetings.yahoo.com/browse/Holidays/Passover/"> Passover
--0-1646151845-1017699178=:43005--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:13:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:13:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> 3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
> planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.

This one has several things to recommend it, in particular the fact that it
cripples some of the simplest methods of relativistic bombardment.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:18:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:18:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip long evaluation about situation, etc.>

And the Army sums all of that up in "always consider METT-T 
when making decisions".  

The scale I'm thinking about is the typical Traveller party.  
They don't have enough bodies to do it right, on the 
average.  So they'll be throwing grenades.  But the soldiers 
who are fighting against a party might just rush in like this.

I'm not sure that you could move that quickly under zero-g 
conditions.

I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run 
on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship 
from stem to stern.  Arguably, orders are going to tell a 
military unit to use the least level of violence necessary to 
take your ship, but if you successfully resisted one boarding 
attempt, and they wanted the ship, they could just give you 
all the "treatment" and board after everyone dies of 
radiation.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:20:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:20:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] does that make me an apostate?
In-Reply-To: <20020401200104.BCEA627A48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sA9y-0003Dx-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

> As I've gotten older, I've just gotten to doing some 
> equipment by "it's about this long, about this heavy, etc.."
> 
> I've done the same thing with NPCs.
> 
> Sometimes FFS drives me nuts. 

Agreed.  Any design system you need a spreadsheet before is too 
complicated for any RPG I play.
 
> I seem to be able to write about some things better if I just 
> say things are "just so".

The only danger to consider is unintended consequences (ie PC 
being able to use a common device as a game-breaker), and 
design sequences don't help much with that.
 
> After all, can anyone out there take any of the robot design 
> sequences and come up with Gigolo Joe?

Book 8 isn't bad.  AB101 (also featured in the various Traveller's 
Digest adventures) isn't all that different from Gigolo Joe.  GJ is 
basically a TL15 pseudo-biological robot with the most advanced 
robot brain possible at that TL.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:21:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:21:48 +1000
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020402082148.D9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> These numbers clearly do not match the OTU, since the most common forms of
> advanced life there are evolved under Earthlike conditions (including all
> of the major races).

True, but a number of the major races actually evolved on *one* world,
and were moved later :)

It seems the Ancients preferred species who live under Earthlike
conditions, for some reason.  That would certainly skew the results.
Remember, the Traveller universe has been subject to at least one
major bout of technological tampering.

The other problem is that even if a sentient race evolved in the dark
depths of a subsurface ocean of an icy world, who would know?  Even if
hundreds of them are discovered, what are their chances of having
meaningful interaction with other races?  I mean, they live buried
under kilometres of ice; not a place many explorers are going to go.

They also probably require thousands of atmospheres of pressure for
survival.  i.e. Passenger fares will be *very* expensive.

That's without the problems of a race evolving sentience under
conditions of very low energy.  They have to live *on* something,
after all.  Even computers need power.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:23:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:23:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012223.DDN00369@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Justin Bunnell asks
>
>What about using stun grenades (flash/bangs?)  Are those 
>useful at all?
>
Flashbangs might be useful depending on the situation.  
People in sealed suits are not going to be affected very 
much.  Probably don't work well in vacuum.

But unsuited people in atmosphere in a confined space like a 
ship's stateroom, ideal.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:25:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:25:51 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
Message-ID: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"MJ Dougherty" says
>
>I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my 
>own air force.
>

Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)

You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles, 
but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up 
with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right 
positions in government for the die hards, it might work.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:30:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:30:45 +1000
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020402083045.E9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Timothy Little writes:
> > 3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
> > planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.

> This one has several things to recommend it, in particular the fact
> that it cripples some of the simplest methods of relativistic
> bombardment.

Actually no, we already know that the *ship* retains its original
velocity through jump.  It is just the motion of the *exit point*
during the time of uncertainty in arrival that I'm talking about.
i.e. You plan to jump to (t,x,y,z) in some coordinate system or other.
You arrive at t+dt, due to uncertainty in jump duration.  What are the
resulting values of x, y, and z?

In fact, option 3 makes relativistic bombardment *much* easier, since
you know the near-c object will always emerge near the planned
position relative to the planet.  Options 1 makes it significantly
harder, but option 2 makes it near-impossible.  Unfortunately, option
2 severely contradicts canon.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:36:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:36:56 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> >I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my
> >own air force.
> >
>
> Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
>
> You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles,
> but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up
> with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right
> positions in government for the die hards, it might work.
>
>

Cool! New Zealand is nice. And it's close to Doug's Penguin Emporium too.

OBTRAV: sell that Free Trader, buy a small land mass, and be your own
fascist dictator.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:37:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:37:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017700663.113.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run 
> on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship 
> from stem to stern.

Not without some means of penetrating the Unobtainium shielding used to make
gas giant refueling survivable.  At TL 17, an antimatter microgrenade would be
handy for area clearing, since the resulting radiation is grossly high
penetration; a microgram of antimatter would produce radiation with cosmic ray
level penetration (half dose at around 6 cm steel) and a dose of around 20,000
rads at 10 meters, despite only having the energy of 4-5 kilos of high
explosive and probably vastly less actual blast because a lot of the energy
escapes the immediate area.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:39:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:39:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

They already have something today that will zoom under your 
car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
even restart).

There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then 
have something like this land at your feet.  You might be 
left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.

Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:42:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:42:57 -0500
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
In-Reply-To: <002401c1d9c3$ac6b2e40$6e9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401170844.027d1130@pop.wizard.net>

MJD said:
>Guess I'm just on a bit of a hair-trigger about all the people wanting me/us
>to "fix" this or that about the Traveller universe, TNE, or GURPS Trav. Fix
>it enough times and it'll be something completely different to what you
>started with. Like my computer...

LOL, mine too.  Yeah, spell checkers that are dumber than human copy 
editors are definitely a pet peeve of mine, also.  And while I applaud the 
very human instinct to tinker with things to make them better, I also 
applaud someone with the judgment to know when to stop.

As far as Trav things that have been improved over time but I'm not so sure 
they should have been, I would like to consider the introduction of the 
task system.  The more time goes by, the more it seems to me that most 
players are most comfortable if they just know what number they have to 
roll higher or lower than, and what the dice modifiers are.  Most people 
don't like to be troubled with Impossible, Difficult, Routine, or other 
arbitrary names.  They just want to know the number.  And it doesn't matter 
how easy you make it to remember the hash table for translating from name 
to number.  It's just human nature.  I realize this assertion is not 
welcomed by a lot of veteran game writers, but I do wonder if the 
designer's instinct to tinker maybe went too far there.

I used to be _much_ more friendly to the idea.  But, age has distilled what 
I see as its essential features to just two things.  If it's a hash table 
that slows things down instead of speeding them up, then do away with 
it.  Saves trouble for everyone all around.

Insofar as introducing a task system also led to written guidelines in the 
rules helping referees know what was considered Impossible, Routine, etc., 
that was a good thing.  As a referee, I like to know what the game designer 
really had in mind for how to apply a particular skill to various 
situations.  I may or may not follow it, but it sure helps keep the game 
flowing to have it already provided, and it helps keep the game universe 
consistent for the referee and players.

Getting down to brass tacks even more, it wasn't really a case of 
"introducing a task system".  It was calling an existing process by the 
name 'task system', and adding some more bits and pieces to how the process 
worked.  Whether called 'task system' or not, you still had the process of 
the player (often with referee assistance, or the referee alone) 
determining degree of success or failure by rolling dice, then comparing 
the result to a rule set that modelled the real-world (or fantasy-world) 
difficulty level of that task as part of the game's design.

I am all for keeping the interface for that task as easy and comfortable as 
possible, consistent with the degree of complexity deemed necessary for the 
rule set.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:40:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:40:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020402083045.E9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017700837.7515.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> Actually no, we already know that the *ship* retains its original
> velocity through jump.  It is just the motion of the *exit point*
> during the time of uncertainty in arrival that I'm talking about.
Ok, yeah, misread what you were talking about.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:43:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:43:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017701001.1051.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> They already have something today that will zoom under your 
> car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
> even restart).
> 
> There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
> a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
> will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
> Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
> go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In fact,
gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing the thing will
short out all of its electronics, not to mention other nearby electronics.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:46:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:46:18 +0100
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401170844.027d1130@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <003101c1d9cf$1c812d50$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> LOL, mine too.  Yeah, spell checkers that are dumber than human copy
> editors are definitely a pet peeve of mine, also.  And while I applaud the
> very human instinct to tinker with things to make them better, I also
> applaud someone with the judgment to know when to stop.

Or at least to wait until the fix is coherent, universal, and final....

>
> As far as Trav things that have been improved over time but I'm not so
sure
> they should have been, I would like to consider the introduction of the
> task system.  The more time goes by, the more it seems to me that most
> players are most comfortable if they just know what number they have to
> roll higher or lower than, and what the dice modifiers are.  Most people
> don't like to be troubled with Impossible, Difficult, Routine, or other
> arbitrary names.  They just want to know the number.  And it doesn't
matter
> how easy you make it to remember the hash table for translating from name
> to number.  It's just human nature.  I realize this assertion is not
> welcomed by a lot of veteran game writers, but I do wonder if the
> designer's instinct to tinker maybe went too far there.

I like the T4 system of target number defined by skill and stat; difficulty
(number of dice) by the referee. It works, it's simple. I can remember it.
And since everything is Formidable in my games, you know you have to roll
3D... (!) It's not the same as the MT task system, but it does the same job
and (for me) it's intuitive.

Complex is not better, not-no-never!

>
> I used to be _much_ more friendly to the idea.  But, age has distilled
what
> I see as its essential features to just two things.  If it's a hash table
> that slows things down instead of speeding them up, then do away with
> it.  Saves trouble for everyone all around.
>
> Insofar as introducing a task system also led to written guidelines in the
> rules helping referees know what was considered Impossible, Routine, etc.,
> that was a good thing.  As a referee, I like to know what the game
designer
> really had in mind for how to apply a particular skill to various
> situations.  I may or may not follow it, but it sure helps keep the game
> flowing to have it already provided, and it helps keep the game universe
> consistent for the referee and players.

Yes. better to understand how this rule relates to reality than to be able
to read seven pages of examples and special cases....

>>
> I am all for keeping the interface for that task as easy and comfortable
as
> possible, consistent with the degree of complexity deemed necessary for
the
> rule set.
>
>

Being a Rules-Dumbass, I have to agree....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:47:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:47:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8CE2395.33F89%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 2:39 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> They already have something today that will zoom under your
> car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
> even restart).
> 
> There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
> a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
> will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
> Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
> go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).
> 
> It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
> have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
> left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.
> 
> Shades of Team Fortress Classic.

Isn't that why Military gear uses GaAs semiconductors?  IIRC, these are more
resistant to EMP (and more expensive too).  One would hope that all military
gear would be proof against this.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:48:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:48:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701001.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE23CA.33F8A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 2:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In fact,
> gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing the thing will
> short out all of its electronics, not to mention other nearby electronics.

What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:52:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:52:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
Message-ID: <200204012252.DDN03437@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>If it's a hash table that slows things down instead of 
>speeding them up, then do away with 
>it.  Saves trouble for everyone all around.
>

The problem I have with making corrections/changes/etc to the 
combat system of CT/Book 4 is that it is *very* easy to walk 
off the Cliffs of Complexity.

I am trying to avoid using tables, except a few during 
character generation to come up with your initiative and your 
actions.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:54:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:54:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701001.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020401225400.55216.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

Hmm, I wonder if battle dress uses fiber optics? 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:55:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:55:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012255.DDN03784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?
>
A very, very distinct EM signal.  I'm sure that a simple RF 
detector would be very cheap.

Imagine that on Regina, there are RF DF units on most tall 
buildings.  

Now, anyone cuts loose with a gauss or railgun (and if we 
listen for special capacitor discharges, any laser) and we 
know within a small area where and what type weapon was fired.

The law level is already a bit high there.  I could see it 
happenning.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:54:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:54:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401170844.027d1130@pop.wizard.net> <003101c1d9cf$1c812d50$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CA8E542.8E4259DC@premier.net>


MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> I like the T4 system of target number defined by skill and stat; difficulty
> (number of dice) by the referee. It works, it's simple. I can remember it.
> And since everything is Formidable in my games, you know you have to roll
> 3D... (!) It's not the same as the MT task system, but it does the same job
> and (for me) it's intuitive.

The way my referee handles many tasks, you start at Average; if you
succeed, you work your way up the chart until you fail.  The highest
level at which you succeeded determines the degree of success.  Forex, a
Tactics roll made at Average would enable a leader to form a workable
plan to carry out a given mission.  The same Tactics roll successfully
made at Average, Difficult and Formidable levels would allow that same
leader to create a plan that took the enemy by complete surprise and
caused the foe to surrender after only token resistance.
> 
> Complex is not better, not-no-never!

All depends on where the complexity is and how much it adds to the
gaming experience.  This is, of course, a situation in which _everone's_
mileage is likely to vary....

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:56:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:56:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE23CA.33F8A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017701795.5627.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 4/1/02 2:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> > 
> > Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In
> > fact, gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing
> > the thing will short out all of its electronics, not to mention other
> > nearby electronics. 
> 
> What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?

Presumably, one strong, sharp pulse lasting roughly the length of time it takes
for a bullet to go the length of the barrel.  Not immediately inclined to
figure out the total emitted energy, but I rather doubt that it's small.

Also, gauss weapon != railgun.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:06:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701795.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE27DC.33FBE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 2:56 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> 
> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.
> 

Yes.  According to Book 4, a gauss rifle seems more like a coil gun.  But is
there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  Railguns seem much
simpler for such an application.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:06:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:06:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012255.DDN03784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017702412.3010.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> Now, anyone cuts loose with a gauss or railgun (and if we 
> listen for special capacitor discharges, any laser) and we 
> know within a small area where and what type weapon was fired.

Fusion and plasma weapons will be plenty visible too.  You'll need to
triangulate from multiple sensors, of course, since it's long-wave and won't
give good directional information.

All the more reason to use a good old-fashioned chemical weapon (of course,
bullet noise detectors exist too).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:12:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012312.DDN05750@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>But is there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  
>Railguns seem much simpler for such an application.
>--

I've seen photos of a .45 caliber fully automatic coilgun 
from the WW II era (never more than an experiment).  The gun 
could operate off of vehicle power, and fired at pistol 
velocities and around 600 rounds per minute.

I saw this in the back of Popular Science not too far back 
(well, not all the way back to my childhood).

Would that be considered a "firearm" or even a "machinegun"?  
It looks like something that could be run off the same outlet 
as your washer/dryer.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:15:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:15:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE27DC.33FBE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017702953.7419.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> 
> Yes.  According to Book 4, a gauss rifle seems more like a coil gun.  But
> is there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  Railguns seem much
> simpler for such an application.

Shush.  We're talking canon, not reality.  As far as I can tell fusion and
plasma weapons are stupid ideas too, but canonical ;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:16:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:16:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017702412.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE2A4A.33FED%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 3:06 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> Fusion and plasma weapons will be plenty visible too.  You'll need to
> triangulate from multiple sensors, of course, since it's long-wave and won't
> give good directional information.

Won't you be able to get adequate info from start of pulse and two sensors?
why should wavelength matter, except in regard to the detection antenna.
RDF relies on signal strength.
> 
> All the more reason to use a good old-fashioned chemical weapon (of course,
> bullet noise detectors exist too).

Noise detectors can be fooled by sound suppressors and reflected noise.
Most bullet noise is from the ballistic crack anyway.  There is millimeter
wave radar in use that does a fine job detecting bullets and calculating
back trajectories,  Of course this does get tricky when there's a few
thousand projectiles going hither and yon.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:17:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:17:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Coilgun, or Everyone Go Out And Build A Gauss Rifle
Message-ID: <200204012317.DDO00214@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.oz.net/~coilgun/home.htm

Stone knives and bearskins.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:25:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:25:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIEFADIAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

Really?  Why dont the cops use them for those highway chases then?
Something that kills the engine would be real handy there...

>>They already have something today that will zoom under your
>>car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
>>even restart).


Justin

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:40 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] handy device


They already have something today that will zoom under your
car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
even restart).

There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.

Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



_________________________________________________________

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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:26:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:26:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE2A4A.33FED%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017703573.6212.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 4/1/02 3:06 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> > Fusion and plasma weapons will be plenty visible too.  You'll need to
> > triangulate from multiple sensors, of course, since it's long-wave and
> > won't give good directional information.
> 
> Won't you be able to get adequate info from start of pulse and two sensors?

You'll need at least three to be certain.  In any case, using two sensors is
triangulation.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:31:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:31:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401181557.00a8b2e0@pop.wizard.net>

JT Kwon wrote:
>And the Army sums all of that up in "always consider METT-T
>when making decisions".
Yes, exactly.  Just rephrasing Sun Tzu, really.

>The scale I'm thinking about is the typical Traveller party.
>They don't have enough bodies to do it right, on the
>average.  So they'll be throwing grenades.  But the soldiers
>who are fighting against a party might just rush in like this.
Aha.  I wasn't really thinking in that context.  Agreed, that they very 
well might.  My response to the starship-theft scenario was to decide that 
any decent-sized starport (in the Imperium) is going to have its own SWAT 
team.  So it might be the SWAT team who is assaulting.

>I'm not sure that you could move that quickly under zero-g
>conditions.
An excellent point.  You could launch yourself along a vector by pushing 
off a wall, etc. but you might have a tough time getting three or four 
people to burst into a room while staying close enough to touch each other, 
then split off into different directions as soon as each one just barely 
got inside the door frame.

Should make Zero-G Combat a desirable skill.  A skilled person would 
probably be able to bounce off the door frame as they enter and move 
practically parallel to the interior wall.  A little like getting skilled 
on a trampoline.

>I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run
>on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship
>from stem to stern.  Arguably, orders are going to tell a
>military unit to use the least level of violence necessary to
>take your ship, but if you successfully resisted one boarding
>attempt, and they wanted the ship, they could just give you
>all the "treatment" and board after everyone dies of
>radiation.

Good idea, but only when you don't care about trashing the rather expensive 
ship.  Hmm, if you have particle accelerators with relatively low power 
settings, then maybe you have meson guns and the luxury of being able to 
target them very finely.  Use neural activity sensors for targeting.  How's 
_that_ for a science fiction scene?  Arthur C. Clarke himself, sitting in 
the interior, wouldn't be able to distinguish it from magic as hostage 
takers in the cabin with him suddenly have large chunks of their bodies 
just disappear, with a release of some heat.

If it's a SWAT type situation, I think most SWATs would have robots 
somewhat smaller than humans, and would use breaching charges to crack open 
hatches or portholes and then insert the bots.  The bots wouldn't so much 
be fighting bots as exploratory scout bots.  Also explosive bots and 
gas-releasing bots.  Let's see, using neural activity sensors from outside 
the hull, you should be able to breach almost directly into the hull where 
the targets are.  They might also try to breach the hull where they can cut 
off power to the internal grav grid, or try to seize control of the 
internal grav grid.  Similarly, breaching the hull to open the interior to 
raw vacuum might be useful if the targets don't all have proper suits.  In 
general, you'd like to avoid breaching the hull, because that damage is 
more difficult to repair and make the ship spaceworthy again.  Breaching 
hatches and portholes is better.  IMTU.  YMMV.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:29:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:29:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012329.DDP00854@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Justin Bunnell" says
>
>Really?  Why dont the cops use them for those highway chases 
>then? Something that kills the engine would be real handy 
>there...
>

that's who it's marketed to.  It's a little flat rocket 
powered car that's about 1 foot x 2 foot.  It drops from 
under the chase car, zooms forward, and is guided under the 
target car.

I think that the EMP part works fine.  It's probably not very 
good on even slightly bad pavement, and you have to get it 
under the target vehicle.

I hear they have the same sort of thing for roadblocks, 
except that the target vehicle drives over the EMP device.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:39:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:39:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017700663.113.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401183213.00a8a050@pop.wizard.net>

Anthony Jackson quoted and wrote:
>John T. Kwon writes:
>
> > I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run
> > on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship
> > from stem to stern.
>
>Not without some means of penetrating the Unobtainium shielding used to make
>gas giant refueling survivable.

I had a similar thought about the unobtainium.  I think what John had in 
mind was toasting up the unobtainium just enough to cause it to throw all 
kinds of nasty radiation from the unobtainium hull itself.  Not crack the 
ship open, just induce severe radiation sickness in its inhabitants.

Depending on the properties of the unobtainium (crystaliron, bonded 
superdense, whatever) the ship may or may not become safe for human 
habitation in the next decade or more.  And of course, maybe the TL 15 
wizards can shoot another ray gun at the hull to make it stop being 
radioactive again.  Wouldn't that be handy?  Hmm, also handy for 
battlefield cleanup in all too many situations.  I could never figure out 
why the Traveller universe isn't _much_ more littered with radioactive 
wastelands than canon indicates.  Now if someone can just come up with an 
acceptable hand wave for the ray gun.  (Does anyone else remember the 
ionization denebulizer guns for kids?)

Neither materials science nor particle physics are my fields (obviously), 
but I think the gist of what I'm saying works anyway.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:37:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] F15D Scorpion Recon Fighter TL 11
References: <3CA80B0E.6302.4EB743@localhost>
Message-ID: <005701c1d9d6$22597000$a5d0f6d1@customer>

I can't read whatever format your designs are in.  Do you have a HMTL or
Text version.

John Scarlett

----- Original Message -----
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 8:23 AM
Subject: [TML] F15D Scorpion Recon Fighter TL 11


> A Recon fighter design for the Consort and Kiev, Thanks for the
Inspiration Anthony
>
>
>


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> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
>
>    ---- File information -----------
>      File:  F15C Scorpion 15T Fighter TL11.gtv
>      Date:  1 Apr 2002, 7:16
>      Size:  6244 bytes.
>      Type:  Unknown
>


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> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
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>      Date:  1 Apr 2002, 7:21
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:43:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:43:22 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
>And no frags!

Looking down pitifully at very large frag grenade with it's pin pulled and 
spoon just about to be released...

"Awwwww.  But Sa-arge?" comes the whine.

Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable sleeves and even 
the explosive charge can pull apart into three separate and working 
charges.  You can make your grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need it 
to be, pretty much.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:42:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:42:52 +0100
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
References: <200204012252.DDN03437@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003801c1d9d7$03a278e0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> 
> The problem I have with making corrections/changes/etc to the 
> combat system of CT/Book 4 is that it is *very* easy to walk 
> off the Cliffs of Complexity.
> 
> I am trying to avoid using tables, except a few during 
> character generation to come up with your initiative and your 
> actions.
>

Wise. Very Wise.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:45:02 +0100
Subject: [TML] room clearing
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <003f01c1d9d7$50c1d1c0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable sleeves and even
> the explosive charge can pull apart into three separate and working
> charges.  You can make your grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need
it
> to be, pretty much.
>
That sounds like something that troopers would break.
As in "if you leave three soldiers in the desert with an anvil, and come
back later, the anvil will be broken. And they won't know how it happened."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:47:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:47:19 -0800
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DB@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

You might want to try to find a copy of Yachts International Magazine.  Fodder for those dreams ;)

Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: laning [mailto:laning@wizard.net]
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 1:44 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)


Living on an airplane would not be fun.  All that loud buzzing.  And the 
bad air.  Yuck.

My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.

I like to throw in people living out the Traveller version of this dream 
wandering from planet to planet, living on their converted merchant.  The 
more oft-encountered version of people living an imitation of this dream is 
the crew of a merchant that is family, or like a family together.  They 
still need to hustle for the credits to pay off the bank, keep the ship 
fuelled and maintained, etc.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:50:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:50:33 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <001f01c1d9c8$14f2af20$629193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com>
 <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net>

I wrote:
> > My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a
> > twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.
> >
MJD responded:
>I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air force.

I want the yacht because it makes it a lot easier to travel to and visit 
all the places I want to see.  I've seen Greece for all of ten days, and 
that certainly isn't enough.  Just for starters.  Most of the world's 
population lives within twenty miles of navigable water I have read more 
than once, so it should make life convenient.

And yes, San Diego would be high on my list of places to spend some anchor 
time.  My friend went on an Alaskan coastline cruise in her yacht last year 
and loved it; it's the other direction but you may want to think about 
it.  Don't forget to watch John Sayles' movie 'Limbo' before you go.  :->

ObTrav:  Just where in the Spinward Marches would be the popular 
destinations for pleasure travellers with the means?  Would there be 
anything seasonal to the travel patterns?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:52:04 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185058.00a65e80@pop.wizard.net>

JT Kwon wrote:
>Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
>
>You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles,
>but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up
>with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right
>positions in government for the die hards, it might work.

The worst part is it's probably the New Zealanders on the list who are 
laughing the hardest at that.  :->

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:50:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:50:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012350.DDP03311@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable 
>sleeves and even the explosive charge can pull apart into 
>three separate and working charges.  You can make your 
>grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need it 
>to be, pretty much.
>
I've seen a modern German grenade that has a removable sleeve 
for frag/no frag.  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:51:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:51:46 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> > >
> MJD responded:
> >I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air
force.
>
> I want the yacht because it makes it a lot easier to travel to and visit
> all the places I want to see.  I've seen Greece for all of ten days, and
> that certainly isn't enough.  Just for starters.  Most of the world's
> population lives within twenty miles of navigable water I have read more
> than once, so it should make life convenient.
>

Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are
very handy for burglars...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:56:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:56:53 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>

MJD wrote:
>OBTRAV: sell that Free Trader, buy a small land mass, and be your own
>fascist dictator.

Which is sort of the the piracy issue brought up earlier.  If you can skip 
on your ship's mortage, or steal a ship, or pirate a ship just _one_ time 
in your life and sell the ship, then a lot of people would.  And in fact 
buy their own island somewhere.  Or live on the Spruce Goose or whatever 
their dream is.

Knowing most player characters as we do, it's no wonder so few referees 
like to let their PCs get possession of a ship, any ship.  Me?  I'd like to 
give players ships, I really would.  But what they'll do with the ill 
gotten booty from selling it terrifies me.

This has driven me to tinker with starship costs quite a lot, trying to 
reduce their value by orders of magnitude.  I still haven't found a 
solution that seems properly balanced.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:54:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:54:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
making MY windows rattle.

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:40 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] handy device


They already have something today that will zoom under your 
car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
even restart).

There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then 
have something like this land at your feet.  You might be 
left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.

Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:55:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:55:23 -0600
Subject: Soldiers Breaking Things (was: Re: [TML] room clearing)
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net> <003f01c1d9d7$50c1d1c0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CA8F36B.AD819CDD@premier.net>


MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
> > Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable sleeves and even
> > the explosive charge can pull apart into three separate and working
> > charges.  You can make your grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need
> it
> > to be, pretty much.
> >
> That sounds like something that troopers would break.
> As in "if you leave three soldiers in the desert with an anvil, and come
> back later, the anvil will be broken. And they won't know how it happened."

Reminds me of a comic strip in _The Paraglide_ (the Ft. Bragg post
newspaper) a number of years ago.  This particular edition of "G.I.
Bill" was on "The Thought Processes of a Private," which were broken
down into the following steps (this is from memory, but it should be
mostly accurate):

1.  Private hears question from sergeant ("How could you lose a 2 1/2
ton truck?!?")
2.  Ears send question to brain.
3.  Brain, not wanting to deal with question, sends question to stomach.
4.  Stomach mishears question as "What was that stuff they served for
lunch today in the chow hall?"
5.  Stomach sends answer to question to mouth.
6.  Mouth responds, "I don't know, Sergeant!"

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:58:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:58:20 EST
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
Message-ID: <193.4c190af.29da4e1c@aol.com>

--part1_193.4c190af.29da4e1c_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 02/04/02 00:53:39 GMT Daylight Time, 
martinjd@globalnet.co.uk writes:


> Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are
> very handy for burglars...
> 

I'm sure they are - think of the damage the little rascal could do when he 
got them home.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_193.4c190af.29da4e1c_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 00:53:39 GMT Daylight Time, martinjd@globalnet.co.uk writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are<BR>
very handy for burglars...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I'm sure they are - think of the damage the little rascal could do when he got them home.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_193.4c190af.29da4e1c_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:59:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:59:06 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017702953.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE344A.3401B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 3:15 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

>> Yes.  According to Book 4, a gauss rifle seems more like a coil gun.  But
>> is there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  Railguns seem much
>> simpler for such an application.
> 
> Shush.  We're talking canon, not reality.  As far as I can tell fusion and
> plasma weapons are stupid ideas too, but canonical ;)

I like railguns.  I like the idea of a gauss weapon with a muzzle blast and
noise.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:02:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:02:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE344A.3401B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017705741.4086.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> > Shush.  We're talking canon, not reality.  As far as I can tell fusion
> > and plasma weapons are stupid ideas too, but canonical ;)
> 
> I like railguns.  I like the idea of a gauss weapon with a muzzle blast and
> noise.

Why would a railgun produce either?  Aside from the sabot being ejected, and
the crack of the bullet, that is, and both would apply to coilguns too.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:07:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:07:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012350.DDP03311@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8CE3646.34024%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 3:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> laning says
>> 
>> Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable
>> sleeves and even the explosive charge can pull apart into
>> three separate and working charges.  You can make your
>> grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need it
>> to be, pretty much.
>> 
> I've seen a modern German grenade that has a removable sleeve
> for frag/no frag.

So called offensive/defensive or polyvalent grenades. There are a whole slew
of them.

I suspect you're thinking of the DM 51.  There's a removable plastic body
element containing steel shot that fits around an HE core and fuse.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:13:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:13:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204011749.DDD03964@vmms1.verisignmail.com> from "John T. Kwon" at Apr 01, 2002 12:49:19 PM
Message-ID: <200204020013.g320DTU02643@localhost.uia.net>

> I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
> effects when you modify Planck's constant.

Not talking about modifying Planck's constant. Only talking about
modifying inertia. Tim introduced the idea of modifying Planck's
constant as a device to keep strangeness from happening when
inertia is modified, but I'm not 100% sure that inertial suppression
would necessarily result in strangeness in the first place. Trying
to get some thoughts on the matter.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:22:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:22:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017705741.4086.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE39B4.34031%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 4:02 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
>> I like railguns.  I like the idea of a gauss weapon with a muzzle blast and
>> noise.
> 
> Why would a railgun produce either?  Aside from the sabot being ejected, and
> the crack of the bullet, that is, and both would apply to coilguns too.

Well, unless you are in vacuum, you get incandescent gas from the arc and
plasma.  See the photos of some real railguns at
http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons/tech/rail.html

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:32:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:32:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE39B4.34031%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017707545.2749.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:

> Well, unless you are in vacuum, you get incandescent gas from the arc and
> plasma.  See the photos of some real railguns at
> http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons/tech/rail.html

Hm...ideally you'd avoid arcing in the first place, since it's not at all
necessary for accelerating the round.  I guess some arcing is unavoidable,
though.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:05:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 20:05:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] I need to run a real life battle
In-Reply-To: <20020329.215011.-23887.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHEEPFCFAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

Do I get to use my shotgun?

-SRS-

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
> generalturokan@juno.com
> Sent: Saturday, 30 March, 2002 00:50
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] I need to run a real life battle
> 
> 
> Thank you TML
> 
> On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 17:48:18 -0800 generalturokan@juno.com writes:
> > 
> > Are there any volunteers?
> 
> I wish to thank all those who've responded off-line to my request.
> 
> Thanks a lot.
> 
> I wont need anyone else to volunteer.
> 
> 
> Gen. Turokan
> 
> 
> -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..       ..   ...       --   -.-- 
>     ...   .-   ...-   ..   ---   .-.   --..--      
>  ..       .-..   ---   ...-  .       .---   .   ...   ..-   ...      
> -.-.   ....   .-.   ..   ...   -       .--  ..   -   ....       
> .-   .-..   .-..       --   -.--       ....   .   .-  .-.   -   .-.-.-
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:10:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:10:19 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>

One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at
doorlocks etc...

How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior is
exposed to Vacuum?

Not many...

Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by
being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a recording
being played over radio)

I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices
relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad ID
number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the
card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you
have access to your account.

After all, you want security to stop casual access to secure areas, but not
so secure that it inhibits routine or emergency access.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:17:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:17:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>

Matthew Bond writes:
> One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's
> at doorlocks etc...
> 
> How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior
> is exposed to Vacuum?

How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use? 
There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
'security while everyone is away'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:22:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:22:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Accents and Bonuses
Message-ID: <gu1iau87ahojttup95thnjogcis4ps6ijl@4ax.com>

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 08:11:19 -0800 (PST), Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:

>ObTrav: A ship crewed by Orthodox Jews sets up so they will spend Passover 
>in jump.  They misjump, and come out of jump way early, on a course to hit 
>something large and fatal.  Your characters are passengers on said 
>ship..  Much fun happens.

Actually, _any_ of the rules can be broken if the alternative is one's own
death.  Including the Sabbath, and eating treyf.



--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:23:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:23:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Pinging the list
Message-ID: <tv1iauc8kg0u7pr0a2985fcfqb69fevomj@4ax.com>

Checking some odd behavior of my mail client and/or ISP.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:40:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:40:01 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <00c801c1d9e7$4e129d00$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?


> Matthew Bond writes:
> > One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint
ID's
> > at doorlocks etc...
> >
> > How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> > Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the
interior
> > is exposed to Vacuum?
>
> How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use?
> There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
> 'security while everyone is away'.

On any passenger carrying vessel, I would expect several areas to be Locked
routinely... Bridge, Cargo, Engineering, etc.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:45:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:45:41 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <00d401c1d9e8$18f2f420$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?


> Matthew Bond writes:
> > One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint
ID's
> > at doorlocks etc...
> >
> > How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> > Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the
interior
> > is exposed to Vacuum?
>
> How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use?
> There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
> 'security while everyone is away'.

And what happens if battle damage (or a micrometeoroid impact) has cause the
hull to become depressurised, while simultaneously causing a computer glitch
to activate the Locks used while in Dock...

If there is any chance that the lockable area needs to be accessed in vacuum
conditions, then I for one want a locking mechanism that doesn't require me
to expose any part of my body to vacuum.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:50:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:50:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1d9e8$18f2f420$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>

Matthew Bond writes:

> And what happens if battle damage (or a micrometeoroid impact) has cause
> the hull to become depressurised, while simultaneously causing a computer
> glitch to activate the Locks used while in Dock...

Well, odds are the lock won't work at all then.  Plus, who says you're going to
put a thumbprint lock on the _inside_ of the lock?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:03:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:03:55 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <20020401200104.BCEA627A48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c1d9e9$a2218e40$f6b18b90@computer>

> From: laning
> Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no
> scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the
> fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world
> in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL 13
> COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much less
> likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.

One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:56:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:56:24 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer>

> From: "MJ Dougherty"
> Cool! New Zealand is nice. And it's close to Doug's Penguin Emporium too.

Sadly, somebody already owns New Zealand.  It's just not considered polite
to talk about it.  The same applies to Papua New Guinea, East Timor, and a
bunch of other countries.

> OBTRAV: sell that Free Trader, buy a small land mass, and be your own
> fascist dictator.

That's my favourite kind of game these days.  I've got to the point where
starships barely appear any more.

"Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got a
harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a fusion
reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own army.
What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania thinks he
has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us independent
enclaves to make sure he doesn't."

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:57:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:57:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <003d01c1d9e9$a2218e40$f6b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017712657.2060.ajackson@ping>

Alan Bradley writes:
> > From: laning
> > Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no
> > scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the
> > fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world
> > in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL
> > 13 COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much
> > less likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.
> 
> One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?

Um...most likely something he's not supposed to be doing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 02:01:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:01:13 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017712657.2060.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CA910E9.25637C99@premier.net>


Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Alan Bradley writes:

<<snip>>
> >
> > One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?
> 
> Um...most likely something he's not supposed to be doing?

Pining for the fjords?  (Or, for GT players, pining for the fnords.)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 02:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 03:08:08 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?


> Matthew Bond writes:
>
> > And what happens if battle damage (or a micrometeoroid impact) has cause
> > the hull to become depressurised, while simultaneously causing a
computer
> > glitch to activate the Locks used while in Dock...
>
> Well, odds are the lock won't work at all then.  Plus, who says you're
going to
> put a thumbprint lock on the _inside_ of the lock?

Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:07:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:07:17 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com> <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane>

Alan tells us:
> "Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got a
> harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
> schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a fusion
> reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own army.
> What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania thinks he
> has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us independent
> enclaves to make sure he doesn't."

Yeah, I know what you mean.  That seems to be the way my Traveller game is
gravitating.

I suppose it's the eternal hazard of lavishing too much detail on the worlds
your PCs visit:  They start getting these crazy notions of settling down and
setting up shop!  While I enjoy exploring the "going native" part of the
game, it's also unbelievably frustrating at times.

I really don't want to allow this kind of behaviour.  Maybe it's because I'm
afraid of commitment. Uhm.. To a single world, that is.  Or simply that I
just can't let go of the "traveling" aspect of Traveller.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Proponent of Planetary Polygamy
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 02:25:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:55:47 +0930 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
In-Reply-To: <200204011651.DDB04154@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204021153350.24002-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi John:

On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> I like to have robots, but there's a certain tedium to Book
> 8.  So far, I've resorted to just "saying" that a robot is a
> certain way.  I don't really like the Star Wars robots, but
> there is a certain edge to the robots as presented in AI
> (where they are "nearly" like us, but still imperfect).
>
> How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?

 Been way to long since I looked at Book 8. As for bots in my game world.
U used some ideas from a Challange article on Shadowrun and images  for my
mind from the High Colonies game  Mainly now besides sercant bots on
tracks or wheels. The others encountered are "pig iron" Secutrity type
that are armed.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:16:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:16:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204020316.DDW00039@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bulkhead Doors

Bulkhead doors can be either a retracting door or an iris 
valve.  Which one is more common depends on YTU.  In canon, 
they are iris valves.

All bulkhead doors have a basic mechanical mechanism, which 
can be operated in a powered or non-powered mode.

All bulkhead doors have an mechanical lock which has a 
powered assist.

All bulkhead doors have a pressure indicator, both a powered 
indicator and a manual pin.  If there is vacuum on the other 
side, and air on your side, the pin slot shows a depression.  
If you are in vacuum and there is pressure on the other side, 
the pin sticks out.  If the pressure is equal, the pin is 
level with the surface.  Some ships, military and scoutships 
in particular, will also have fire and radiation sensors at 
every bulkhead door.

In an emergency, the door can be unlocked manually and 
operated manually. The manual lock requires a key, which all 
ship's personnel carry.  It is rather large, and easy to 
handle with gloved hands.  Usually, all keys are the same, 
except for keys leading to the bridge and engineering, which 
are both different by custom.

On military ships, all keys are kept in cases near each 
door.  For special secure areas, the keys are under Marine 
guard.

If the door still has power, and the key is used to operate 
the door, an alarm will sound in that section and on the 
bridge.

For more convenience, bulkhead doors are usually used in 
powered mode.  There is a sensor pad next to the door, which 
can detect a keycard within 10cm.  If the keycard is valid, 
the buttons which operate the door are enabled: there are two 
buttons which change color by status:  lock/unlock and 
open/close.  There is a convenience pocket in vacc suit 
sleeves (right and left) into which a crewman usually has a 
keycard.  The pocket is closed with velcro.

Airlocks

Airlocks have two bulkhead doors: inner and outer.  The 
airlock is equipped with pressure sensors inside and outside 
the airlock (including inside the ship).  There are 
additional controls in the airlock which also respond to the 
keys which are used to control the pressure in the airlock 
itself.  Scout ships usually have a more exotic external 
atmosphere sensor, which can also be monitored from the 
bridge. At least one door on passenger ships has a weapons 
detector and explosives/powercell sniffer.

Even if the ship is on the ground, and there is breathable 
air, if you open the inner door, the airlock chamber has 
warning lights that come on.  If there is vacuum outside and 
atmosphere inside, a warning will sound in that section and 
on the bridge.  Once you close the inner door, you can open 
the outer door.  In order to open both doors at once, it 
requires that you manually operate the doors -- this cannot 
be done using the electronic controls.

Now, as for securing the ship against theft while on the 
ground:

The ship's computer operates in a different mode when landed 
or docked, as opposed to under way.  Once the ship's computer 
is not in "under way" mode, a specific crewman's sensor key 
and password is required to change the mode.  Logon to ship's 
computers is a combination of the sensor key and a password.

If you can't log on and don't have permission to change the 
mode, you can't operate the engines, sensors, weapons, etc.

Additionally, the ship, while not "under way", will sound an 
alarm if one of the airlock or cargo bay doors is opened 
manually or forced.  This alarm can be sent to a 
predesignated communicator (the captain's, for instance).  
This alarm can be set through the ship's computer for any 
door.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:49:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:49:00 -0500
Subject: [TML] does that make me an apostate?
In-Reply-To: <200204011656.DDB04760@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401224644.00cdd1a8@192.168.0.1>

At 11:56 AM 4/1/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>As I've gotten older, I've just gotten to doing some
>equipment by "it's about this long, about this heavy, etc.."
>I've done the same thing with NPCs.
>Sometimes FFS drives me nuts.
>I seem to be able to write about some things better if I just
>say things are "just so".
>After all, can anyone out there take any of the robot design
>sequences and come up with Gigolo Joe?

Once the Tech level get's high enough, it would be easier to make a 'bio-bot'
Mostly human tissue grown in a vat and a programmed brain.  GURPs Robots 
would be my choice for design.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:52:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <3CA8C9D6.9000605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200203312207.DBP01462@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401224917.01b08448@192.168.0.1>

At 01:57 PM 4/1/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>John T. Kwon wrote:
>>The only problem I have with the new room clearing technique is that if 
>>people are expecting you, then all they need is a long burst fire (belt 
>>fed) to keep you out of the room.
>>The new technique involves a team of 4 flowing into the room and moving 
>>left or right as they flow in and occupy corners of the room by flowing 
>>along the walls.
>>Might make an interesting scenario to game out using ACQ.
>>If the people flowing into the room have more actions per combat round 
>>than the people occupying the room, it might work.
>>The use of grenades is now an exception in room clearing.  I do remember 
>>throwing a simulator into a closet in MOUT training, and being declared a 
>>casualty.  Maybe they have something there.
>I wonder how this compares, to, say, standard SWAT protocol for the same. 
>They make extensive use of flashbangs (Presumably the 'stun grenade' 
>mentioned in the link.

Flash bangs are also quite dangerous in confined spaces.  The big 
difference between that and fragmentation grenade is lack of fragmentation 
in the Flashbang.  You still have about the same amount of explosive material.

>Presumably they are less likely to encounter return fire than soldiers 
>clearing a room in a battle, but there's also the rather tricky (and now, 
>all too common) mingling of non-combatants and combatants in today's battles.
>Mis-calculate where enemy fire is coming from in a large building, and you 
>could burst into the room next door, filled with refugees instead of bad guys.
>All I can say is I DON'T want to be the poor sucker taking that #1 position.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!
Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:51:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:51:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
References: <200204011651.DDB04154@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA92ABA.54139D45@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?

I use book 8 and 101 Robots. My players currently use a batch of
obsolete TL 12 (MT) floor models including a traderbot, engineeringbot,
valetbot, medibot, constructionbot and agrobot. They take a perverse
delight in using the agrobot to take care of livestock for the vargar
steward to eat. As the TL goes up they become more "sophantlike" until
TL16 they begin to have personalities.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I eat babies. I drink pee. I must be French!, French!, French!
                  -Nathan Lane & Chris Katein



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:56:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:56:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE2395.33F89%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401225457.01da10b0@192.168.0.1>

At 02:47 PM 4/1/2002 -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 4/1/02 2:39 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> > They already have something today that will zoom under your
> > car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
> > even restart).
> > There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
> > a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
> > will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
> > Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
> > go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).
> > It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
> > have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
> > left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.
> > Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
>Isn't that why Military gear uses GaAs semiconductors?  IIRC, these are more
>resistant to EMP (and more expensive too).  One would hope that all military
>gear would be proof against this.

Extensive shielding and redundancy are parts of my handwaves on why 
Traveller computers are so darn big.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:58:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 21:58:01 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane>
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com> <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer> <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <ojaiaukds95jfm1e8hbvvfhdk7e51bpoec@4ax.com>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:07:17 +1000, "Shane Slamet"
<s.slamet@bom.gov.au> wrote:

>Alan tells us:
>> "Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got =
a
>> harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
>> schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a =
fusion
>> reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own =
army.
>> What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania =
thinks he
>> has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us =
independent
>> enclaves to make sure he doesn't."
>
>Yeah, I know what you mean.  That seems to be the way my Traveller game =
is
>gravitating.
>
>I suppose it's the eternal hazard of lavishing too much detail on the =
worlds
>your PCs visit:  They start getting these crazy notions of settling down=
 and
>setting up shop!  While I enjoy exploring the "going native" part of the
>game, it's also unbelievably frustrating at times.
>
>I really don't want to allow this kind of behaviour.  Maybe it's because=
 I'm
>afraid of commitment. Uhm.. To a single world, that is.  Or simply that =
I
>just can't let go of the "traveling" aspect of Traveller.

This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
(or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.

=46rom a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become part
of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:15:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:15:14 -0600
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
References: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping> <20020402083045.E9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CA93052.B595C25F@pobox.com>

Timothy Little wrote:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
> > Timothy Little writes:

>>As far as I can see, there are three main contenders for how the jump
exit point moves:...

> > > 3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
> > > planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.
> > This one has several things to recommend it, in particular the fact
> > that it cripples some of the simplest methods of relativistic
> > bombardment.
> Actually no, we already know that the *ship* retains its original
> velocity through jump.  ...
> In fact, option 3 makes relativistic bombardment *much* easier, since
> you know the near-c object will always emerge near the planned
> position relative to the planet.

I vote for option 3, although it does contribute to the near-C rock dilemma.
I have used it IMTU with a slight twist...the 'direction' of the ship's vector
on arrival is also relative to the body with the greatest gravitational field,
i.e. the planet.  So if you accelerate out from the planet and jump, you
arrive still heading away from the planet.

Under this model. it makes sense for merchants (and others) to jump with zero
velocity (relative to the planet).  It also means that anything which comes
out of jump with an inward vector (comes in 'hot') had to work hard to do
that, by travelling past the jump point, and then turning around and
accelerating back inward before jump.  Since most of the reasons for wanting
to do this are military in nature, system defenses are very hostile to ships
which come in 'hot'.

I deal with near-C rocks in another way, which I will post in a separate
thread so that all present can shoot holes in it ;-).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:11:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:11:40 -0600
Subject: [TML] Another Power Source For FF&S2?
Message-ID: <3CA92F7C.B45F42C3@premier.net>

Herewith my First of April contribution to the TML.  Enjoy!

While getting caught up on the Temple ov thee Lemur Web site, I noticed
that they had an article about a potato-powered Web server.  The FAQ, in
response to the question "How much energy can you get out of a potato?",
answered thusly:

"Again, this varies considerably. Using the zinc/copper electrodes that
we have at present, we get a voltage of about 0.8V (+-0.1V) and a
maximum sustainable currrent of about 15mA. We can draw this current for
about 15 hours before we notice an appreciable drop, so a back of an
envelope calculation of total useful energy would be in the region of
650J."

http://totl.net/FAQ/features/spud/

Should we add chemoelectric potatoes as a power plant option in FF&S2?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:02:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:02:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017702412.3010.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204012255.DDN03784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401195939.009fdcd0@mindspring.com>

At 03:06 PM 4/1/02 -0800, you wrote:
>All the more reason to use a good old-fashioned chemical weapon (of course,
>bullet noise detectors exist too).

But sound echoes..

Yesterday, being Easter, Colma's cemetaries were filled with Chinese 
families paying their respects to their ancestors.  This involves 
firecrackers.  Lots of firecrakers.

There are 45,000 bodies in Colma, close to half of them Chinese.  The town 
sits in a valley, and is *filled* with marble sound reflectors.

It sounded like a bloody battalion-sized firefight.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:14:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:14:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>

At 12:41 PM 4/1/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Unfortunately, the further I went the more I discovered
>that the two were completely incompatible. CT worldgen
>(including the extended system in Book 6) simply breaks
>the laws of physics. Repeatedly. In ways that are very
>hard to gloss over.

LOL!  Very true, very true...


>My response was to make "realistic" the default setting,
>and include a number of notes demonstrating how to go
>about something more Classic in style if that was to
>your taste. In retrospect that was probably the wrong
>strategy. At the time I wasn't sure what the biggest
>part of the audience would be - long-time Traveller
>players or newcomers. Clearly, I guessed wrong.

Not entirely true.. those not interested in scientific accuracy tend not to 
bother with extended design systems.


>If First In goes to a second edition, I think the world
>design sequence will default to something much more
>like Book 6 worldgen, with "realism notes" allowing the
>referee to flesh things out or substitute more realistic
>steps to taste. (About the only thing that I would "fix"
>in the default sequence would be the formula for world
>surface temperature in Book 6, which is not only wrong,
>but wrong in such a way that it actually makes Book 6
>much harder to use.)

Hey, I like it just fine.  The only thing I would change is move the 
sections on mapping and animal encounters behind the population details.

>I suspect that would make First In considerably easier
>for long-time Traveller fans to use in their established
>Traveller universes - while still allowing folks who
>roll their own to be as realistic as they choose.

For the record, for Trojan Reach I'm making adjustments to the classic 
information.  Mostly, this is changes stellar types, and changing the sizes 
of worlds that are way to small for their listed "uses."  I'm trying to 
keep the feel of the worlds while making them fit the math.

It's a tightrope, and I hope everyone approves.

(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:22:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <002401c1d9c3$ac6b2e40$6e9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401201741.009f0020@mindspring.com>

At 10:24 PM 4/1/02 +0100, you wrote:
>Guess I'm just on a bit of a hair-trigger about all the people wanting me/us
>to "fix" this or that about the Traveller universe, TNE, or GURPS Trav. Fix
>it enough times and it'll be something completely different to what you
>started with. Like my computer...

"Fixing" world generation doesn't have to be backwards compatible; if you 
want to have Mars-sized worlds with thick atmospheres, it's your hand wave.

In my experience, playing with the rules that the Gods of Nature and 
Physics give us is far more interesting, with odd results like the 
intelligences under the ice that Jens came up with...

For example: these races are all psionic, and have their own "Imperium" 
connected by telepathy and interstellar teleports.  They manipulate us to 
protect their own interests.  Interesting setting, especially when someone 
twigs to the secret.. y'see, *these* are the Ancients!  Al, the Yaskodray 
business is misdirection on their part.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 23:12:36 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <ojaiaukds95jfm1e8hbvvfhdk7e51bpoec@4ax.com>
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com> <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer> <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane> <ojaiaukds95jfm1e8hbvvfhdk7e51bpoec@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1dfiauodt52jg11nh29p9a68ulq7t55aer@4ax.com>

On Mon, 01 Apr 2002 21:58:01 -0600, JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
wrote:

>This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
>There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
>(or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
>sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
>example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.
>
>From a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become part
>of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
>destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
>becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.

Damn.  "Villains"

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:15:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David & Kristin Larson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 21:15:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] RE: John Kwon's SOP
In-Reply-To: <20020401233807.357B8279F7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1da05$6c754180$0300000a@c263000a>

John, I'd also be willing to review your SOP. I'm sure it's something I
could use and I'd be more than willing to pass on any thoughts or ideas
(probably give a different branch perspective as well).

David Larson
dlarson@blarg.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:43:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David & Kristin Larson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 21:43:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] RE: Room Clearing
In-Reply-To: <20020401233807.357B8279F7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c1da09$61259ba0$0300000a@c263000a>

Flash-bangs are in relatively common use (at least I've had no problem
getting them from the ASP).

The biggest factor regarding the use of frag grenades I've come up with is
the likelihood of 1) friendlies in the room (hostages, etc) and 2) the
likelihood of a frag/round punching through the wall. Lined up outside the
door, pressed against the wall is a bad place to be if you're about to
perforate said wall with fragments. Assuming the absence of friendlies and
the presence of strong walls, more boom is better. :)

Of course you always have to consider how badly you *want* to clear the room
or building. Sometimes it's just better to *remove* the building than to
preserve it for future use. YSMV (your situation may vary) ;)

Reading one of the earlier posts regarding the mechanics of room-clearing, a
key point was unclear: when entering the room (assuming a common four-sided
room) the four team members enter as fast as they can alternating moving to
the left and right along the two walls. As they move in they can clear what
they see, but each has a well defined sector that they are responsible for
and must clear. Just because you see a target doesn't make it your shot
(only if your sector is already cleared and no teammates are in the way). As
you move into the room your *available* sector of fire, that which you can
fire into, starts very large but then very rapidly shrinks to a tiny
fraction of what you had. That's why you sweep through the room rather than
point yourself directly at you corner.

Assuming your the number one man and your SOP has you entering and moving
left, your sweep as you enter the door will start in the center of the room
and rapidly sweep to the left corner. As you move towards that corner you
sweep back to the right towards the opposite corner until the room is clear.

OnT: This is not something that the ordinary Traveller group should attempt,
especially against trained opponents. Even if the defender is of a poor tech
level, poorly armed, etc he still holds an advantage. The only real asset
you have is shock and speed. This is a skill that must be trained over and
over and rehearsed repeatedly and against a wide variety of room and
situations. Just image a group of engineers and stewards trying something
like this during a 'hostage rescue' scenario, especially once surprise is
lost. The outcome is left to the imagination.

David
dlarson@blarg.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 06:21:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:21:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sHfY-0003IO-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

> John T. Kwon writes:
> > They already have something today that will zoom under your 
> > car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
> > even restart).
> > 
> > There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
> > a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
> > will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
> > Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
> > go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that difficult to 
build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate power 
battery.  
 
> Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In
> fact, gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing
> the thing will short out all of its electronics, not to mention other
> nearby electronics.

I've a few comments and questions here:

1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this 
shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be 
overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP? 

2) While military equipment wil be shielded, many worlds would 
likely strongly prefer if civilian weapons were not, since having a 
way to stop everyone's guns from working would be a godsend for 
cops (who would presumably also have shielded weapons).   

3) Even if you don't get the weapons, cutting off someone's comm 
will at least stop them from calling for backup.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:28:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:28:21 -0600
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV158oWo7w0nGEbJ8M00012276@hotmail.com>

> I have the feeling that an Imperial ability to commandeer
> your ship is a factor here.

Actually legal forms of "theft" such as comandeering and repossession didn't
enter my mind when I posted, but I can see that these issues are integral to
the question under discussion.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:02:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:02:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <DAV58nLJm2ZBNCogiwH0001b30b@hotmail.com>

As soon as the door begins opening they
> all shoot him.

PCs who went too far?  I'm shocked!<G>

Oddly enough this closely resembles the head-in-the-sand failure to realize
that actions have consequences that so often precedes crime in real life.

> If that same party tried that same stunt again, I'd have the guards at the
> fence shoot them with tranq and they'd wake up in jail.

Ahh, the Prison Campaign...

>there would be automatic
> security programs would have taken over to incapacitate the
> boarders.  Including, lighting, temperature controls, random and extreme
> variations in the artificial gravity grid (from weightless state to
> negative one gee to positive one gee then back to negative one gee, etc.),
> locking down all interior and exterior hatches, and even evacuating air
> from different spaces.  Each individual grav plate is separately
> controlled, and there are preprogrammed routines for turning off all grav
> plates in a corridor except one which is turned to maximum, and sequencing
> which plate is turned to maximum so as to pull someone in the corridor to
> one end or the other of it.  With sufficiently high-powered grav plates,
> someone can be thrown into an airlock, for instance.

A beautiful description of exactly what I meant by "Does the environmental
system become hostile?).  Nice!

>
> Insurance companies and mortgage companies insist upon certain security
> precautions for ships,

Big time!  I can envision insurance inspectors who make the rounds at
starports, conducting unannounced inspections on policyholders.

> If the 'Alien' from the movie boarded my ship, <snip> Subsequent
> events to be determined by the referee.  :->

I liked the movie, but I always thought the crewmembers of the Nostromo had
way too much trouble getting their act together.

>
> If thieves manage to take control of the ship enough to lift off from
> planet, they'll still have to deal with starport and orbital traffic
> control.  This will include knowing what identifying call sign they are
> assigned, filing a flight plan, and getting clearances.  A docked ship
will
> also have its security system linked to the starport, and if the security
> is triggered at any point, the starport security will immediately be
> alerted.  The thief will still have to somehow evade starport, COACC, and
> Imperial facilities, in most systems.  Think satellites, missiles, deep
> meson guns, and SDBs.

Agreed.  Clearly
Step 5. Getting Away
needs to be included.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:40:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:40:01 -0600
Subject: [TML] Stealing Starships - More
Message-ID: <DAV43jxq6pgtq33Z4WN00012b23@hotmail.com>

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I think Matt has raised good points about the dubious usefulness of =
biometric systems for applications that may have to accessed in vaccuum.

Voice prints may become an even more fussy issue, at least as far as the =
exterior hatch goes.  Not only suit radios - but also atmospheric =
compostion and pressure - can alter the human voice.

Many have raised the point - correctly, it seems to me - that there will =
be different levels of security in place for different environments or =
circumstances, even on the same ship.

The product of security and convenience is a constant.  In other words, =
the more security you have, the less convenience - and vice versa.  For =
this reason, if for no other, there will be different levels of =
security.

I can think of several different circumstances that would all cry out =
for different levels of security:

Grounded (not at a starport) with at least one trusted crewmember =
aboard.
Grounded and unoccupied.
Berthed (at a spaceport) with at least one trusted crewmember aboard.
Berthed and unoccupied.
Underway with no passengers.
Underway with passengers.=20

And since we've come to this juncture - what exactly does an anti-hijack =
program do?  Does it scan boarding passengers for weapons?  Monitor =
patterns of passenger movement for suspicious activity?  Compare facial =
features against a known database of offenders? =20

Is it completely passive? ("Sorry to interrupt Captain but five =
passengers are approaching the bridge with weapons and shaped charges")

Or do automated systems take an active role in defending the ship in the =
event of a hijack? (ZAP "Correction Captain.  Make that four =
passengers." ZAP "Sorry.  Three.")  Perhaps if the vessel is taken and =
the Captain doesn't enter an override command, the A-H program scrams =
the power plant.  Or maybe the ship is experimental, powerful, or =
otherwise very _interesting_ in which case the A-H program decides to =
scuttle in 30 minutes...

I _do_ love to give PCs a deadline.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com




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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I think Matt has raised good points about the =
dubious=20
usefulness of biometric systems for applications that may have to =
accessed in=20
vaccuum.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Voice prints may become an even more fussy issue, at =
least as=20
far as the exterior hatch goes.&nbsp; Not only suit radios - but also=20
atmospheric compostion and pressure&nbsp;- can alter the human=20
voice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Many have raised the point - correctly, it seems to =
me - that=20
there will be different levels of security in place for different =
environments=20
or circumstances, even on the same ship.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The product of security and convenience is a =
constant.&nbsp;=20
In other words, the more security you have, the less convenience - and =
vice=20
versa.&nbsp; For this reason, if for no other, there will be different =
levels of=20
security.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I can think of several different circumstances that =
would all=20
cry out for different levels of security:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Grounded (not at a starport) with at least one =
trusted=20
crewmember aboard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Grounded and unoccupied.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Berthed (at a spaceport) with at least one trusted =
crewmember=20
aboard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Berthed and unoccupied.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Underway with no passengers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Underway with passengers.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>And since we've come to this juncture - what exactly =
does an=20
anti-hijack program do?&nbsp; Does it scan boarding passengers for=20
weapons?&nbsp;&nbsp;Monitor patterns of passenger movement for =
suspicious=20
activity?&nbsp; Compare facial features against a known database of=20
offenders?&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Is it completely passive? ("Sorry to interrupt =
Captain but=20
five passengers are approaching the bridge with weapons and shaped=20
charges")</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Or&nbsp;do automated systems take an active role in =
defending=20
the ship in the event of a hijack? (ZAP "Correction Captain.&nbsp; Make=20
that&nbsp;four passengers." ZAP&nbsp;"Sorry.&nbsp; Three.")&nbsp; =
Perhaps if the=20
vessel is taken and the Captain doesn't enter an override command, the =
A-H=20
program scrams the power plant.&nbsp; Or maybe the ship is experimental, =

powerful, or otherwise very _interesting_ in which case the A-H program =
decides=20
to scuttle in 30 minutes...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I _do_ love to give PCs a deadline.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:texasredshift@hotmail.com">texasredshift@hotmail.com</A></=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 06:46:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:46:59 +0100
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <007701c1da12$42ee6230$8d9493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
> stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
> making MY windows rattle.
>

I want plasma grenades for that....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 06:58:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 01:58:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <003f01c1d9d7$50c1d1c0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402015737.02815a50@pop.wizard.net>

>That sounds like something that troopers would break.
>As in "if you leave three soldiers in the desert with an anvil, and come
>back later, the anvil will be broken. And they won't know how it happened."

I sometimes think the entire purpose of boot camp was to teach me to 
convincingly say, "The private don't know, sir."

ObTrav:  Umm.  I'd better stop posting on this thread because I can't think 
of one.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:15:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 02:15:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
In-Reply-To: <200204012252.DDN03437@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402020141.02817660@pop.wizard.net>

JT Kwon says:
>The problem I have with making corrections/changes/etc to the
>combat system of CT/Book 4 is that it is *very* easy to walk
>off the Cliffs of Complexity.
I agree.  What was most needed when MT came out (still is?) was for someone 
to take all CT rules and carefully synthesize them together into one volume 
to get rid of conflicts, ellipses, bits of char gen that improved one 
career but were still missing from older careers, etc.

That was chiefly what I was looking for in MT.  A revised and smoothly 
functioning CT.  Revised rule systems are all well and good, but I want a 
complete and coherent, nonbuggy, smoothly functioning rule set.

The next thing I was looking for was a lot more detailed world data in the 
Spinward Marches, and possibly noble and other governmental NPCs who run 
the Spinward Marches.  The adventures tended to gloss over a lot of 
stuff.  I realize there are different tastes there.  Some referees dislike 
having it all dictated to them.  I prefer having it all pregenerated for 
me, debugged and consistent with the rest of the universe, and using my own 
preferences and judgment to alter or throw out the stuff that suited me.

The other thing I was looking for was more cool science-fiction gizmos, 
preferably accompanied by really good gizmo illustrations.  Sometimes, one 
picture of ...a grav belt, let's say, is worth a few hundred well-chosen words.

Well before MT was issued, I tried taking Striker, Snapshot, the original 
three LBBs, Mercenary, etc. and reconciling all the weapon ranges and 
damage.  I gave it up for a lost cause.  I would have willingly parted with 
hard-earned cash to pay someone else (like GDW) to do it.

>I am trying to avoid using tables, except a few during
>character generation to come up with your initiative and your
>actions.

Mmmmm, I think well-designed tables with just the right accompanying 
titles, captions, and text blurbs can be extremely valuable.  I'm not shy 
about using them.  Excellent design, excellent writing, and excellent 
layout must all converge when it comes to tables in rule books.  But, 
ideally most of those extra chunks of reference and rule system will be 
modular, so the "nongearhead referee" can dispense with it and run the 
simple version quite easily and happily.  But let's not resurrect that 
debate, please.  Forget I ever mentioned.  This is not the rule-design 
droid you are looking for.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:13:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:13:16 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEFOCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
>
>Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
>stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
>making MY windows rattle.

No, I want the EMP grenade to shut off the cars whose xenon headlights are
blinding me, from behind, even when I've switched my rearview mirror to the
polarized position.  Hell, a parabolic mirror with a computer chip for
aiming would probably be enough to get them to back off.

The weapon I'm trying to figure out is an equalizer for pedestrians.
Anything that will actually stop or otherwise neutralize a moving vehicle
that is about to violate a crosswalk will have a danger space that includes
the pedestrian (like a LAW, M203, Panzerfaust, etc.) at typical engagement
ranges.  Anything safe for the pedestrian will not actually stop the vehicle
before impact -- the .44 magnum will shut down the engine, but the car will
keep on rolling.  Many weapons will neutralize the driver, but again, the
car will keep going.  It's a poser.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:22:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 23:22:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16sHfY-0003IO-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B8CE9C2B.34116%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 10:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that difficult to
> build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate power
> battery.  

I have yet to be convinced that such things will work, and be at all
effective.  Particularly as the  strength of burst will be inversely
proportional to the to the square of the distance.  Has anyone actually seen
a demonstration where this works?  It should be rather easy to test.

Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical martial
arts 'death touch'.
> 
> I've a few comments and questions here:
> 
> 1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this
> shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be
> overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP?

Gauss weapons won't need any complex and delicate circuitry if they're
anything like railguns.  I don't expect them to be vulnerable to EMP anymore
than a 1950s Chevy would be.
> 
> 2) While military equipment wil be shielded, many worlds would
> likely strongly prefer if civilian weapons were not, since having a
> way to stop everyone's guns from working would be a godsend for
> cops (who would presumably also have shielded weapons).
> 
> 3) Even if you don't get the weapons, cutting off someone's comm
> will at least stop them from calling for backup.

Common will certainly be more vulnerable, as will computers.  And the
government better tread lightly before using EMP.  Will hospitals be EMP
proof.  Patients with implants.  What about the impact on civil commerce?
Governments don't exist in vacuo. And count on sophisticated bad guys on
have stuff that's a good as what the cops and the military have, if not
better.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:23:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:23:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEFOCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>
>This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
>There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
>(or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
>sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
>example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.

Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's kind
of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not doing any more
jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the character
becomes motivated to take this one, last job.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:19:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:19:47 +0800
Subject: [TML] F14C Scorpion class light fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEIAEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Having apparently inspired people do do versions of this fighter for other
rules sets. It is about time I posted the original F14C Scorpion.

F14C SCORPION CLASS LIGHT FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION


The F14 Scorpion class of light fighter was at one time the most numerous
light fighter used by the Solomani Confederation. It was still in service in
large numbers with second line Solomani forces up to the final collapse, and
was used both as a subordinate craft on some larger starhips, and as a
planetary based fighter. The -C variant was the most numerous type, the
earlier -A and -B variants having been upgraded to the -C model. The earleri
versions mostly differed in the weaponry fitted.

General Data Displacement: 15 tons  Hull Armour: 40
Length: 15 meters  Volume: 210 cubic meters
Price: MCr22.494663  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 354.6512/318.5954 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 117Mw Fusion Power Plant (117Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (1.315Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 4 (18.25Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 40 , 2.28125 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 9

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 60,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 120,000km
Active EMS (4 hexes; 16.5Mw), 3xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 1xWorkstation

Armament Offensive: 1xTL13 50Mj Laser Lance (Loc: 1/4/5; Arcs 1; 13.889Mw;
No Crew), 4x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 4 7-ton missiles or recce drones

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
50Mj Laser Lance  4:1/5-17  8:1/3-9  16:1-4  32:1-2
-2 Difficulty Levels

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0118 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.5889 Mw)
Crew: 1 (1xManuever/Electronics/Gunner)
Crew Accommodations: 1xWorkstation
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 1.6 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 42 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.173 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  	Systems
1  	1-17:Ant  		1-10:Lance,11-20:Elec  	ELS-1H,
2-3  	Ant  			Elec  			LS-1H,
4-5  	Ant  			Hold  			LT-1H,
6-7  	Ant  			Hold  			Lance-1H,
8-9  	1-4:Ant  		Hold  			PP-1H,
10  	1-3:Hatch  		Qtrs  			All others-(1h),
11-13				Hold
14-15	1-11:Missile  	1-13:Grapple,14-20:Hold
16-17				1-14:Eng,15-20:Hold
20   				Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:19:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:19:49 +0800
Subject: [TML] RF14D Scorpion class light recon fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPEEIAEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

This is the recon version of my F14 Scorpion light fighter.

RF14D SCORPION CLASS LIGHT RECON FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION


The -D variant of the F14 Scorpion is the light reconnaisance version. The
major differenc between the -C and -D versions is the fitting of a more
capable sensor suite in the -D at the expense of most of the fighters
armament. A second workstation has also been provided to share the work load
of the fighter.

General Data Displacement: 15 tons  Hull Armour: 40
Length: 15 meters  Volume: 210 cubic meters
Price: MCr32.006997  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 315.6526/295.4188 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 106Mw Fusion Power Plant (106Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (0.1132Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 4 (16.25Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 42 , 2.03125 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 7

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 120,000km Passive EMS Folding Array (4 hexes; 0.15Mw), 60,000km
Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 300,000km Active EMS (10 hexes;
27.5Mw), TL13 Densitometer (0.9Mw), TL12 Neutrino Sensor (0.01Mw), 3xRunning
Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 2xWorkstations

Armament Offensive: 2x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 2 7-ton missiles or
recce drones

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0124 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.6191 Mw)
Crew: 2 (1xElectronics, 1xManuever/Gunner)
Crew Accommodations: 2xWorkstations
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 0.2 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 42 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.03125 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  	Surface Hits  		Internal Explosion  		Systems
1-5  		Ant  				Elec  				ELS-1H,
6-7  		Ant  				1:Qtrs,2-11:Elec,12-20:Hold  	LS-1H,
8-9,11-13  	Ant  				Hold  				PP-1H,
10  		1-3:Hatch,4-20:Ant  	Qtrs  				AEMS-(2h),
14-15  	1-5:Missile,6-20:Ant  	1-7:Grapple,8-20:Hold  		Neutrino-(2h),
16-17  	1-2:Ant  			1-15:Eng,16-20:Hold  		All others-(1h)
18-19   					1-15:Eng,16-20:Hold
20   						Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 03:34:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Another Power Source For FF&S2?
In-Reply-To: <3CA92F7C.B45F42C3@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402033354.00a72bf0@pop.wizard.net>

John Groth says:
>Should we add chemoelectric potatoes as a power plant option in FF&S2?

Renewable energy that helps out with life support systems.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:31:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:31:01 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> This has driven me to tinker with starship costs quite a lot, trying
> to reduce their value by orders of magnitude.  I still haven't found
> a solution that seems properly balanced.

Do what I did in my GURPS game: make FTL drives cost comparable to
maneuver drives, and let them have a second- (or tenth-) hand ship.
This method should be applicable to Traveller; let's see...


Yes, okay.  If Jump-2 engines for the minimum 100 dton ship cost 1 MCr
instead of 10 MCr, then you can build a Jump-2 starship new for about
2.5 MCr.  Such a design uses primarily water tanks with a small fuel
processor to supplement much smaller LHyd tanks (the minimum needed to
initiate jump, whatever that is IYTU), and downgrades the sensors and
some other nonessential (but expensive) electronics.  With an
acceleration capability of 0.2G loaded, it won't ever land on a planet
but it can carry a shuttle that does.  It will also take about 10
hours to reach a 100D limit.  Of course it has no weapons -- even a
single laser costs a significant proportion of the total value.

If such a ship is in very poor but still serviceable condition, it
might be worth 250 kCr.  Valuable, but hardly an amount you could
retire to an island paradise in luxury for the rest of your life.
Especially if it is divided among 6 PCs :)


A probably unintentional side-effect of having very expensive jump
engines is that a starship owner can afford everything else to be
nearly top-of-the-line without greatly increasing the overall cost.
Slashing jump drive costs means that other cost-saving measures
actually become worthwhile, which (IMO) makes for much more
interesting design choices in the game.

Of course cutting jump drive costs by an order of magnitude means that
interstellar freight costs will be reduced, but not by an order of
magnitude.  Operating costs (crew, port fees, administration overhead,
maintenance) become the dominant factor rather than interest on the
mortgage.  I think I worked out a few years ago that the cost of jump
systems makes up about 60-70% of average freight costs (where are
these things when I need them), so the cost of freight would probably
halve.

There is yet another reason why I might recommend this approach.  If
low-acceleration unarmed merchant ships that have poor sensors and
can't land are common, it makes an excellent excuse for significantly
increased piracy levels around backwater worlds.  Not to mention the
fact that pirates can risk a much smaller monetary investment for
cargo that is still just as valuable as in the "expensive drives"
case.

;^>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:43:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 03:43:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>
References: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402033956.00a76170@pop.wizard.net>

Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...

Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug, 
your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead 
GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is 
despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode of 
eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.

--Laning, Canoneer of God


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:06:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:06:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <003d01c1d9e9$a2218e40$f6b18b90@computer>
References: <20020401200104.BCEA627A48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402034537.00a74010@pop.wizard.net>

Alan Bradley quotes me then asks:
> > From: laning
> > Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no
> > scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the
> > fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world
> > in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL 13
> > COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much less
> > likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.
>
>One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?

Obvious.  Getting into trouble.  The ISS isn't silly enough to send lone 
scouts to planets.  It sends contact teams, survey teams, whatever, but in 
teams.  Um, perhaps his ship is suffering from technical problems and it's 
a forced landing.  He's looking for local help resolving the problem.

And thereby hangs at least a couple of different adventure seeds.  The 
aging ex-scout in a starport bar whose partner went jump mad, did something 
to the nav controls and caused a misjump then committed suicide.  He was 
forced to land on a world whose exact location he was unsure of to seek 
help, the seemingly primitive local chirpers gathered around his ship, then 
he just _knew_ somehow that the ship was fixed.  He reboarded it, it worked 
fine.  Too fine!  It used fuel at one one-hundredth of the normal 
rate!  And he couldn't figure out how or why.  He also just _knew_ what nav 
settings to use to jump back to civilization and didn't think to question 
that, just did it.  When he got back to an ISS base, they told him the 
incident never happened and took the ship away "for repairs".  He was 
abruptly transferred to a training command as an instructor, where they 
spent about one month debriefing him on his experience in great detail.  He 
can't say exactly where that planet was, but he thinks he might remember 
the nav settings he used to jump away from it, and he knows where that jump 
ended.

Or.  Your small scout vessel has just had its fuel purifier go bad and 
you've landed on a TL 6 planet that you were only supposed to orbit.  You 
need to negotiate with the locals for refined fuel.  If you meet with their 
scientists you think you can arrange for them to refine what you need.  But 
you have to get past their military and politicians first.  Several of whom 
think the smart thing to do with an alien spaceship is keep it for 
themselves, but it's locked.  You're starting to think your only chance of 
staying alive for now is to convince them they cannot get inside the ship 
without your help.  Klaatu barada nictu.

Or.  Your tramp trader calls on an out of the way system in hopes of 
selling some chameleon cloth or other gewgaws to the natives, and maybe 
picking up some unique local handiworks that you can sell to archeologists 
when you return to civilization.  Hey, an independent business soph has to 
be creative to stay ahead of the big corporate competition.  So you do a 
few orbital passes while you make a survey.  Never land blindly, not if you 
want to live a long time in this business.  There's a ship down there in 
the jungle.  You get a close up photo image.  It's practically overgrown 
with jungle!  Not enough IR signature to be generating any heat 
internally.  No beacons.  Doesn't respond to any radio hails.  You send the 
ship's boat to investigate.  It's a scout ship, a model that hasn't been in 
common use for about fifteen Imperial years.  There are two skeletons on 
the bridge, visible through the viewport.  If you manage to get past the 
locked outer airlock door,  it will have to be by force.  That's when you 
find more skeletons in the interior corridor adjacent to the 
airlock.  Visible through the viewport again.  If you manage to force your 
way past the inner airlock door, that's when the ship begins to power up 
and various antihijack programs kick in.  You're starting to think you know 
how the skeletons next to the airlock got to be that way.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:20:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:20:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>
References: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>

Anthony Jackson quoted then wrote:
>Matthew Bond writes:
> > One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's
> > at doorlocks etc...
> >
> > How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> > Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior
> > is exposed to Vacuum?
>
>How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use?
>There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
>'security while everyone is away'.

I agree with Matt Bond about avoiding biometrics.

There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example.  Paying 
passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them through the 
passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger areas of the ship.  Each 
keycard is unique to each passenger, and so the same card gets them into 
their own private cabin.  Crew will have similar cards, that give them more 
freedom, and exactly how much and which greater freedoms would depend on 
the crew member's billet.  In a hijack situation, the captain or bridge 
watch officer uses a much higher level of security access to lock down all 
passenger hatchways, among various other security measures  This overrides 
the passenger keycards, of course, and limits crewmember keycards according 
to the specific alert situation.  The higher levels of access can't require 
a physical key because that might not be possible in some emergency 
scenarios.  Thus, it requires more elaborate and closely guarded usernames 
and passwords.

Voice print and/or retina scan _might_ be required for confirmation, but 
only as an additional measure.  Voiceprints are vulnerable to spoofing with 
recordings or even computer-synthesized voices.  Retina scans would only be 
desirable if they can be read through a vacc suit faceplate.  And they 
might be subject to spoofing, as well.  So even these two biometrics would 
probably be ignored by skilled designers of most ship security systems.

The biggest vulnerability is if someone gains knowledge of the captain's 
username and password.  That's why there's an owner's username and password 
that can override even the captain's access level.  In situations where law 
enforcement needs it, they can usually get it from the owner.  Sufficiently 
clever and ruthless hijackers might be able to do so, also.  That would be 
bad.  What provisions can we make for the captain and crew to neutralize 
hijackers who had done that?  Weapons and vacc suits and that's about 
it?  They should start out with physical possession of the bridge and 
engineering, so the hijackers would still have a fight on their hands 
before being able to fly the ship.  Maybe there should be lots of panic 
buttons around the ship.  Break glass and pull handle to start the 
"Emergency, I am being hijacked" beacon.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:29:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
References: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402042211.00a7a020@pop.wizard.net>

Matt Bond asks:
>Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
>kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
>Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Okay, I guess the security override system is composed of very tiny 
computerized access points, networked together.  They normally act as dumb 
workstations for talking to the ship's computer, but in case of network or 
computer problems they can act independent of the ship's computer to let 
stranded people with proper username and password enter the ship safely.

This creates a couple of vulnerabilities, but that is accepted in the name 
of user safety.  Now, would be hijackers only have to spoof the tiny dumb 
workstation computer at one of the access points if they want to board the 
ship.  The workstation knows all the usernames and passwords, although even 
a dumb workstation can be pretty tough to crack heavily encrypted data like 
that.  The hijackers could bring along some smart computer of their own to 
try to crack it.  They could eavesdrop on network traffic between the 
workstation and the ship's computer and crack the username and password 
that way.

Therefore, usernames and passwords are rotated frequently, and the network 
link between the workstation and ship's computer is fiber optic.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:40:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:40:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV58nLJm2ZBNCogiwH0001b30b@hotmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402043102.0280d0f0@pop.wizard.net>

Bill Scheets aka Tex says:
>Agreed.  Clearly
>Step 5. Getting Away
>needs to be included.

And Step 6.  Continuing To Get Away With It The Rest Of Their 
Lives.  Staying in Imperial space, for instance, and having to deal with 
not only transponder IDs, but all kinds of ship's papers and records, 
personal IDs, and all this checked against......databases.

I'm thinking that in Zhodani space, the thieves just have to fool the 
telepathic Thought Police who make routine boarding inspections of all 
docked ships.  And everyone entering the starport has to get past 
telepathic Thought Police at checkpoints.  It's going to be awfully hard to 
get away with this crime there.  But even with this security, the Zhodani 
will probably employ databases and various kinds of ID for ships, ships 
crews, major starship components, and cargos.  As well as the usual logs, 
flight plans, maintenance records, safety inspections, more thorough 
inspections during annual maintenance, yatta yatta yatta.

There's a reason that Vargr space is as disorganized as Traveller indicates 
it is at the governmental level.  Much easier for piracy and other such 
activities in or near Vargr space.  Very convenient for many 
campaigns.  And perhaps we've discovered a way to reconcile the piracy+ 
crowd with the piracy- crowd.  Piracy can be viable, but only in regions 
like the Vargr Extents and other regions of space where governmental 
authority only has a short reach.  Which really just rephrases what some of 
us have been saying for a long time.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:57:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:57:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Stealing Starships - More
In-Reply-To: <DAV43jxq6pgtq33Z4WN00012b23@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402044404.0280ec90@pop.wizard.net>

>And since we've come to this juncture - what exactly does an anti-hijack 
>program do?  Does it scan boarding passengers for weapons?  Monitor 
>patterns of passenger movement for suspicious activity?  Compare facial 
>features against a known database of offenders?
>
>Is it completely passive? ("Sorry to interrupt Captain but five passengers 
>are approaching the bridge with weapons and shaped charges")
>
>Or do automated systems take an active role in defending the ship in the 
>event of a hijack? (ZAP "Correction Captain.  Make that four passengers." 
>ZAP "Sorry.  Three.")  Perhaps if the vessel is taken and the Captain 
>doesn't enter an override command, the A-H program scrams the power 
>plant.  Or maybe the ship is experimental, powerful, or otherwise very 
>_interesting_ in which case the A-H program decides to scuttle in 30 minutes...

Assuming you've paid for a real, live Antihijack program, then the answer 
is it will do any and all combinations of the above, plus a lot of other 
things besides.  You just go to any console that lets you access the user 
interface for your Antihijack program and select any of a number of popular 
default configurations.  Then start customizing it as you desire.  Assuming 
your username and password is authorized.  A significant part of 
configuring its settings is to determine exactly what access and overrides 
each username is granted.  Probably the vendor who sold it to you had an 
installation consultant visit and spend an hour or three until you had at 
least one crew member comfortable with it.  Its capabilities have evolved 
for literally centuries and there are few situations that have not been 
thought of.  The user interface has evolved for a similar period of time 
and is surprisingly intuitive and easy to use.

There would be various hardware extras that you may or may not want to 
install.  You want a flamethrower pointed down the airlock corridor and 
controllable via the Antihijack program?  No problem, we can have it 
delivered and installed in one to three days.  That'll run you extra for 
the hardware, plus an additional installation fee for configuring it 
properly with the software.  Only available where law level permits.  You 
are responsible for showing our salesman all required government permits 
before the sale can be final.  You should check with your liability insurer 
before getting any fixed interior weaponry as it may void your policy or 
require a new rider.  You should also be warned that such riders tend to be 
extremely expensive.  Manufacturer and vendor are in no way liable for 
injuries, death, or property damaged which might involve said flamerthrower.

When a really cheap starship costs tens of millions and most starship types 
cost hundreds of millions, there will be pretty elaborate and effective 
layers of security to prevent loss.  And software applications will have 
been evolved and debugged for hundreds of years, which is a way of thinking 
that most of us on the TML need to consciously force ourselves into because 
we're used to all software being relatively new, somewhat unstable, usually 
a bastard of a user interface, never the same two years in a row, etc.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 10:02:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 05:02:30 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer>
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402045857.02801d60@pop.wizard.net>

Alan Bradley, who has been there and has the tee shirt to prove it, says:
>"Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got a
>harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
>schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a fusion
>reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own army.
>What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania thinks he
>has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us independent
>enclaves to make sure he doesn't."

Perfect, Chairman Laning and his Lanite citizens should find King Bradley 
to be an excellent neighbor and ally.  You're invited to drop over anytime 
for tropical drinks on the veranda.  The dancing girls put on a fine show 
around the bonfire after midnight, it's always a big hit with guests.  Just 
be sure to let us know before heading over, so we can make sure the air 
defense system doesn't do anything rash to your air rafts.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 10:29:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 05:29:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices [was Re: Living...on an
 Airplane]
In-Reply-To: <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>

Tim Little responded to my quest for much cheaper starships with very 
interesting thoughts.  I've had mostly the same ideas, but yours are better 
organized and developed, Tim.  Thanks much.  :->

The two big differences for me would be reducing the overall cost by at 
least two or even three orders of magnitude, and trying to do it so that 
there's still a huge price jump going from nonstarship to starship.

In other words, reduce hull, computer, maneuver, and power plant costs by 
probably two orders of magnitude but jump drives by only one.  Which still 
doesn't work out quite as tidily as I'd like.

I would like it if you could commission say a really nice yacht for 3 
megacredits or less.  Which is still a huge sum of money.  Weaponry and 
shield costs would remain unmodified.  Or a 200-ton free trader for maybe 
just under 1 megacredit, built new.  I don't want to open the rule books 
right now to run the numbers because I'm already way overdue to hit the 
rack and sleep.

One of the problems with the above approach is anyone with good credit and 
a good business plan could build jump-5 or jump-6 ships and they would be 
too common.  Which got me to wondering if I couldn't make the cost for jump 
drives go up proportional to the square of the jump number.  Which in turn 
got to me wondering if it would be a good idea to have the same type of 
relationship for power plants and maneuver drives.  Probably yes to jump 
drives and no to the others.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 10:30:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:30:26 +1200
Subject: [TML] Re: Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331112145.025208a0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020331073926.009f9080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CAA3102.30051.BC0A20@localhost>

On 31 Mar 2002, at 11:29, laning wrote:

> This has led me to wonder if Orthodox Jews ever make it off the planet 
> Earth in the canonical Traveller universe.  Perhaps in low 
> berths?  Probably not.  Would the opportunity to actually meet these 
> foreign people called Orthodox Jews be a tourist attraction when planning 
> to travel to Terra?

To be honest, I don't think Jews (of any ilk) would be all that 
common in the Traveller Universe. There are under 15 million Jews 
worldwide right now (13.6 IIRC) and the faith doesn't encourage 
conversion. I'd say 100 million tops for 1100 Imperial (probably far 
less), mostly clustered on and around Terra. The vast majority of 
Imperial citizens have probably never heard of them. However, I 
would say that they will still be around.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 11:28:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:28:20 +1200
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAA3E94.13432.F10D0B@localhost>

On 1 Apr 2002, at 17:25, John T. Kwon wrote:

> You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles, 
> but they don't have an air force anymore.

We don't actually need an airforce, the 1,800 km moat serves well 
enough unless you're going to bring along an aircraft carrier. And if 
you can bring along an aircraft carrier, we couldn't have stopped 
you anyway.

Vague ObTrav: Think of all the thousands of low to mid population 
worlds. They have no hope of stopping a half serious assault, so 
how are their defence forces structured? A small professional force 
sufficent to deal with casual raiders and to act as a cadre for a 
guerilla resistance until someone comes to their rescue. One to 
three battalions of mobile ground troops and two or three heavy 
fighters should be sufficent.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 11:38:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:38:14 +1200
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185058.00a65e80@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEIGHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

laning wrote :
> JT Kwon wrote:
> >Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
> >
> >You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles,
> >but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up
> >with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right
> >positions in government for the die hards, it might work.
>
> The worst part is it's probably the New Zealanders on
> the list who are laughing the hardest at that.  :->

I thought we wuz included in the "right positions in government
for the die hards" bit ?

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 11:38:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:38:13 +1200
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEIGHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

John Kwon writes
>(Megan Robertson)  says
> >Subject: Re: [TML] room clearing
> >
> >The British Army method is: -
> >
<snip>
> Yes, that's very similar to what was SOP just prior to the
> last technique.  What you describe above is what is known as
> Battle Drill #6.

One assumes all the room clearing techniques being discussed are
for bunkers or concrete buildings of better than average
construction against a well-motivated enemy.

To clear a modern apartment, office or hotel room, stand in the
hallway outside, and spray the room(s) with automatic fire,
remembering to cover the entire wall and especially remembering
to fire at ground level a few times.

Then push the wall over.

Just remember that the wall isn't going to give _you_ any cover
when you start firing either.
<grin>

Oh, and remember to fire in to the air outside the building a few
times first. Based on my observations of most troops and the
majority of civilians, that'll mean they'll be standing in the
windows, looking for where the shots came from.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:02:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:02:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIADJAA.tml@downport.com>

I'm doing some research for a TAS supplement and could use some help with
references. The supplement will be CT, but I'd like to read up on any
reference, in any version, that mentions the TAS.

If you'd like to reply in the thread on the TAS-Net web boards, here is the
thread URL: http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=38. I'll get them all
into the thread, eventually.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
"In conclusion, remember that Traveller
  is a game, and that it goes differently
    for everyone who plays. Bon voyage!"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:14:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:14:25 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <20020402064409.B8250279FA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c1da40$0a82f040$2c5d8690@computer>

> From: JR Holmes 
> This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
> There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
> (or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
> sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
> example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.
> 
> =46rom a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become part
> of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
> destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
> becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.

You evil naughty man...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:12:36 +1000
Subject: [TML] RE: Room Clearing
Message-ID: <001e01c1da40$09e43f40$2c5d8690@computer>

> From: "David & Kristin Larson"
> Flash-bangs are in relatively common use (at least I've had no problem
> getting them from the ASP).

Just last week one of the veterans at work was showing us the scars he got
from a flash-bang that went off too close to him.

He and some other army guys were training with a bunch of cops  (Tactical
Response Group - SWAT types), when one of the cops rolled a flash-bang the
wrong way.  Result:  small but interesting shrapnel wounds.  My friend was
actually behind the guy that took the brunt of the bang, but the grenade had
rolled between his feet, and bounced off a wall before going off.

All of this was apparently rather embarrassing to the people responsible for
organising the exercise.  Fortunately nobody was seriously injured, so their
butts weren't kicked too hard.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:15:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:15:22 GMT
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net> <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3ca99b9a.4755858@post.demon.co.uk>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:

>> >I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air
>force.
>>
(snip)
>
>Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns =
are
>very handy for burglars...

I want an L5 space station, then I can not only declare independence,
but address communications to world leaders as "foolish
Earth-beings!".

And if anybody objects, well, I'm at the top of the gravity well and
there are lots of rocks in space...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 13:12:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:12:18 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net> <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <3ca99b9a.4755858@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <002301c1da48$17342b80$d99593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
>Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are
>very handy for burglars...

I want an L5 space station, then I can not only declare independence,
but address communications to world leaders as "foolish
Earth-beings!".

And if anybody objects, well, I'm at the top of the gravity well and
there are lots of rocks in space...

Excellent! Though sitting out on the Veranda on an evening is a bit
chilly....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:07:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 06:07:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020402140743.71732.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Matthew Bond <mattgbond@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA
> while in space to do some
> kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my
> Airlocks Starport Locking
> Mechanism. How do I get back in?

I don't think it is even that necessary to contrive
the possibility.  I don't think that every port of
call on a vaccuum world is going to pressurize the
landing area.  They may have special vehicles to get
you from your ship to the StarPort, but if they don't,
its into the vacc suit.  Then how do you get back into
your ship?


Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:16:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:16:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <03b401c1da51$0d6c92f0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

I've often through of a bass seeking missle for just such an occasion

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 6:54 PM
Subject: RE: [TML] handy device


> Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
> stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
> making MY windows rattle.
>
> Jesse
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:40 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] handy device
>
>
> They already have something today that will zoom under your
> car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
> even restart).
>
> There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
> a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
> will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
> Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
> go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).
>
> It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
> have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
> left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.
>
> Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:22:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:22:58 EST
Subject: [TML] Malorn Union and Winston Democracy
Message-ID: <a2.235606a8.29db18c2@aol.com>

Can anyone tell me anything about these two pocket states beyond
their names and allegiance codes?

I'm reworking Aldebaran sector for an upcoming GURPS Traveller book.
I need to know how seriously I need to consider leaving these two states
in existence :-). Clearly they aren't canonical in the strict sense of the
word, but if any fans are fond of them I can't be too cavalier about
erasing them. . .

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:40:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 00:40:39 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9C2E7.20705@gmx.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>"MJ Dougherty" says
>
>>I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my 
>>own air force.
>>
>
>Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
>
>You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles, 
>but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up 
>with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right 
>positions in government for the die hards, it might work.
>
Don't laugh... this may have already happened.
-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:34:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:34:38 +0800
Subject: [TML] F17 Starfire class light fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEIFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Just when you thought it was safe, another fighter.

F17 STARFIRE CLASS LIGHT FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION



The F17 Starfire class light fighter was designed at the same time as the
F16 Scimitar class light fighter, with which it shares many components. Not
as fast as the Scimitar, having a maneuver drive capable of 4G compared to
the Scimitars 5G, the Starfire does carry a somewhat heavier armament in the
form of two 50-Mj Laser Lances compared to the Scimitars single.

General Data Displacement: 20 tons  Hull Armour: 50
Length: 16 meters  Volume: 280 cubic meters
Price: MCr25.172723  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 471.972/434.9299 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 151Mw Fusion Power Plant (75.5Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (0.2232Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 4 (23.5Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 41.6 , 2.9375 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 12

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 60,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 120,000km
Active EMS (4 hexes; 16.5Mw), 3xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 2xWorkstations

Armament Offensive: 2xTL13 50Mj Laser Lances (Loc: 2/3; Arcs 1; Loc: 18/19;
Arcs: 5; 13.889Mw each; No Crew), 4x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 4 7-ton
missiles or recce drones

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
50Mj Laser Lance  4:1/5-17  8:1/3-9  16:1-4  32:1-2
-2 Difficulty Levels

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0157 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.7828 Mw)
Crew: 2 (1xManuever/Electronics/Gunner, 1xGunner)
Crew Accommodations: 2xWorkstations
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 0.4 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 56 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.182 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  		Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  	Systems
1  			Ant  			Elec  			LS-2H,
2-3  			1-18:Ant  		1-11:Lance,12-20:Elec  	PP-2H,
4-5  			1-19:Ant  		1-7:Elec,8-20:Hold  	ELS-1H,
6-7  			1-19:Ant  		1:Qtrs,2-20:Hold  	Lance-1H,
8-9,11-13   				Hold  			MD-(2h),
10  			1-2:Hatch  		Qtrs  			All others-(1h),
14-15  		1-10:Missile  	1-10:Grapple,11-14:Eng,15-20:Hold
16-17   					Eng
18-19   					1-11:Lance,12-20:Eng
20   						Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:34:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:34:35 +0800
Subject: [TML] F16 Scimitar class light fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEIFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

F16 SCIMITAR CLASS LIGHT FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION



The Scimitar class light fighter was in widespread service with Solomani
forces, especially second line units, at the start of the Second Solomani
Rim War. As the war progressed Scimitars were gradually pushed into first
line units because of losses of more advanced types.

Somewhat larger than the F14 Scorpion they could not use the launch tubes on
Consort class escort carriers, they were faster than the Scorpions, boasting
a 5G capability.

General Data Displacement: 20 tons  Hull Armour: 60
Length: 16 meters  Volume: 280 cubic meters
Price: MCr25.64925  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 487.4876/456.9102 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 166Mw Fusion Power Plant (83Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (1.1585Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 5 (24.4Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 43 , 3.05 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 11

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 60,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 120,000km
Active EMS (4 hexes; 16.5Mw), 3xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 2xWorkstations

Armament Offensive: 1xTL13 50Mj Laser Lance (Loc: 2/3; Arcs 1; 13.889Mw; No
Crew), 3x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 3 7-ton missiles or recce drones

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
50Mj Laser Lance  4:1/5-17  8:1/3-9  16:1-4  32:1-2
-2 Difficulty Levels

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0148 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.7374 Mw)
Crew: 2 (1xManuever/Electronics, 1xGunner)
Crew Accommodations: 2xWorkstations
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 0.3 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 56 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.342 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  		Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  	Systems
1  			Ant  			Elec  			LS-2H,
2-3  			1-18:Ant  		1-11:Lance,12-20:Elec  	PP-2H,
4-5  			1-19:Ant  		1-7:Elec,8-20:Hold  	ELS-1H,
6-7  			1-19:Ant  		1-2:Qtrs,3-20:Hold  	Lance-1H,
8-9,12-13   				Hold  			MD-(2h),
10  			1-2:Hatch  		Qtrs  			All others-(1h)
11,14-15  		1-5:Missile  	1-5:Grapple,6-20:Hold
16-19   					1-13:Grapple,14-20:Hold
16-19   					1-19:Eng,20:Hold
20   						Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:03:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 08:03:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402033956.00a76170@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>
 <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402080234.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>

At 03:43 AM 4/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
>>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...
>
>Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug, 
>your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead 
>GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is 
>despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode 
>of eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.
>
>--Laning, Canoneer of God

I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.

(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...

100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.


--

Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:05:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:05:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

LOL!!!  That's the other one that my roomies and I thought of as well!  That, and "Too-stupid-to-live" ortillery ;D

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Pratt [mailto:cdpratt@gatecom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 6:17 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] handy device


I've often through of a bass seeking missle for just such an occasion

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:09:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:09:42 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>
 <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020402080234.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9D7C6.8D7E0D48@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 03:43 AM 4/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
> >>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...
> >
> >Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug,
> >your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead
> >GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is
> >despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode
> >of eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.
> >
> >--Laning, Canoneer of God
> 
> I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
> 
> (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> 
> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

All right, I'll take that challenge...

<<paraphrase spoiler space>>












<<paraphrase spoiler space ends>>

Galileo's "Yet it still moves."

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:23:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:23:29 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [TML] [ANNOUNCEMENT] Frontiers PBeM Campaign
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204021821020.168484-100000@svati>

Hi all,

  I'm setting up a PBeM in the Spinward Marches/Trojan Reaches
sectors and are looking for some interested players. More
info can be found by going to the PBeM section on
www.travellercentral.com

Cheers
Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:43:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:43:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] [ANNOUNCEMENT] Frontiers PBeM Campaign
Message-ID: <OF198476A5.770671F6-ON85256B8F.005B7FB4@pheaa.org>








<snip>
  I'm setting up a PBeM in the Spinward Marches/Trojan Reaches
sectors and are looking for some interested players.
</snip>

I would like to play. i cant check traveller central from work so could you
let me know what version of traveller you will be using? will the gm be
making Pre-generated chars? if not can we request a pre generated char?

thanks

Bill






From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:04:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:04:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] room clearing
References: <200203312207.DBP01462@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401224917.01b08448@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3CA9E49E.50806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:

> Flash bangs are also quite dangerous in confined spaces.  The big 
> difference between that and fragmentation grenade is lack of 
> fragmentation in the Flashbang.  You still have about the same amount of 
> explosive material.

Yep, and they're powerful, too. There was a police raid on a house a 
good 90-100 yards away from our house. They tossed a fb in the front 
door of the place. The boom rattled the windows in OUR house, and was 
loud enough, I started looking for which next-door neighbor's furnace 
exploded.

Moreover, the windows were rattled hard on the side of our house *away* 
from the raid, which had the bulk of three houses between us and the 
explosion.

I can't imagine what it was like *inside* that room.
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:04:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:04:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
Message-ID: <200204021704.DEX06493@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>
>(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
>
>100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
>
galileo
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:11:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:11:27 +0200
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIADJAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIADJAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020402191127.6b66c4f3.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Swordy wrote:
> I'm doing some research for a TAS supplement and could use some help
with
> references. The supplement will be CT, but I'd like to read up on any
> reference, in any version, that mentions the TAS.
> 
> If you'd like to reply in the thread on the TAS-Net web boards, here is
the
> thread URL: http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=38. I'll get them
all
> into the thread, eventually.

Wouldn't this make for an excellent GT supplement as well? That way, it
might even see print...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:14:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16sHfY-0003IO-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017767692.2225.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
>
> 1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this 
> shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be 
> overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP? 

The shielding necessary to protect a gauss rifle from its own operation will
shield from levels of EMP that aren't lethal to humans at short range.
> 
> 2) While military equipment wil be shielded, many worlds would 
> likely strongly prefer if civilian weapons were not, since having a 
> way to stop everyone's guns from working would be a godsend for 
> cops (who would presumably also have shielded weapons).  

And, for various reasons, unshielded weapons will be very unpopular, since EMP
devices are nowhere difficult enough to build for only the cops to have them. 
Any world with a law level high enough to want all weapons to be unshielded
probably also has a law level high enough not to permit civilian ownership of
gauss or energy weapons, and a CPR gun with non-electronic sights is immune to
EMP at levels that won't kill humans. 
> 
> 3) Even if you don't get the weapons, cutting off someone's comm 
> will at least stop them from calling for backup.

True, though lasercomms and burst transmitters can be shielded fairly easily. 
A conventional radio would be hard to shield.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:17:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:17:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017767869.7543.ajackson@ping>

Matthew Bond writes:

> Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
> kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
> Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Ok, we're talking once in a hundred year scale accidents here, so we don't
worry about it.  However, most likely the scout left the door open, making the
issue moot.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:26:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:26 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <memo.187211@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3CA9E49E.50806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Greetings dear hearts.

I've been on the receiving end of a flash-bang, fortunately while standing 
outside in the dark, and that's quite enough, thank you!

I couldn't see a thing for quite some time.

The odd thing was, I issued a challenge in what to me was just a random 
direction, and managed to draw a bead on the fellow who chucked it. I 
never did let on to him that I hadn't somehow spotted him... just adds to 
the legend :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:28:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:28:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
Message-ID: <20020402.093118.-186857.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


> Douglas Berry says
> >
> >(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> >
> >100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
> >
>  

"We look for things to make us go" ??? ST:TNG

Turokan

.--.   ...       .----   .----   -....   ---...   ----.       ..      
.--   ..   .-..   .-..       .--   .-   .-..   -.-       -...   .   ..-. 
 ---   .-.   .       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..       ..  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   .-   -.   -..       ---   ..-.       -
  ....   .       .-..   ..   ...-   ..   -.   --.   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:40:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:40:40 +0200
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
References: <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020402194040.7979a578.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Of course all the Major races evolved on Earthlike worlds... Its had to
> develop a spacefaring civilisation then there is a kilometres thick ice
> sheet between you and the stars (not that you'd even know they
existed...)

That is a point I hadn't thought of...

*sound of head hitting table repeatedly*

Combined with Doug's idea of psionic lifeforms, this might be really
interesting.

Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world under
the ice.

Off course, the Zhodani might be aware of such a race (since they have
both better defense against psionics and use robots heavily)...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:40:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Classic Traveller)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:40:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <20020402191127.6b66c4f3.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>

When it is completed I will publish it in PDF. That way it will definitely
see print "see print", if it is worth the paper to print it on ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Jens Rydholm

Swordy wrote:
> I'm doing some research for a TAS supplement and could use some help with
> references. The supplement will be CT, but I'd like to read up on any
> reference, in any version, that mentions the TAS.
>
> If you'd like to reply in the thread on the TAS-Net web boards, here is
the
> thread URL: http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=38. I'll get them
all
> into the thread, eventually.

Wouldn't this make for an excellent GT supplement as well? That way, it
might even see print...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:43:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:43:36 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <18.1cd71567.29db47c8@aol.com>

--part1_18.1cd71567.29db47c8_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 02/04/02 02:10:20 GMT Daylight Time, 
mattgbond@ntlworld.com writes:


> One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at
> doorlocks etc...
> 
> How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior 
> is
> exposed to Vacuum?
> 
> Not many...
> 
> Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by
> being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a 
> recording
> being played over radio)
> 
> I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices
> relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad 
> ID
> number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the
> card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you
> have access to your account.
> 
> After all, you want security to stop casual access to secure areas, but not
> so secure that it inhibits routine or emergency access.
> 
> Matt
> 

Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs 
starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're 
borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.

The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not to 
let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can probably 
see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information than 
you wish to give out.

If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems for 
opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch 
then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to a 
specialist lock-smith.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_18.1cd71567.29db47c8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 02:10:20 GMT Daylight Time, mattgbond@ntlworld.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at<BR>
doorlocks etc...<BR>
<BR>
How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit<BR>
Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior is<BR>
exposed to Vacuum?<BR>
<BR>
Not many...<BR>
<BR>
Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by<BR>
being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a recording<BR>
being played over radio)<BR>
<BR>
I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices<BR>
relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad ID<BR>
number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the<BR>
card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you<BR>
have access to your account.<BR>
<BR>
After all, you want security to stop casual access to secure areas, but not<BR>
so secure that it inhibits routine or emergency access.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.<BR>
<BR>
The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not to let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can probably see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information than you wish to give out.<BR>
<BR>
If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems for opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to a specialist lock-smith.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_18.1cd71567.29db47c8_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:46:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:46:30 EST
Subject: [TML] Questions, questions
Message-ID: <102.1302b0d5.29db4876@aol.com>

1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to 
remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible

2) Can Hivers hold their breath?

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:51:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:51:40 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
> First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might
be.
> Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in
the
> game universe are - IMO - dubious.

My main aim isn't to recreate the original Traveller sequence. If I'd
wanted that, I'd just use it instead of First In  ;-)

However, I want roughly the same spread of intelligent races as in typical
SF, ie the most common environment for sentinent life to evolve in is on
Earthlike worlds.

I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might look
under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary after a
while.

While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
function using radically different biochemistries?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:11:03 -0800
Subject: [TML] Traveller PBeMs
Message-ID: <B8CF3437.341C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Just checking back with everyone on the list.

If you are running a Traveller PBeM and want to advertise it, please drop me
a not.  I'm trying to get a lists of all Traveller PBeM posted to
TravellerCentral.

Thanks
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:27:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:27:36 +0100
Subject: [TML] Classic Traveller GM Screen
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020322222704.00b6d1b0@192.168.0.1>
 <3CA6EBDE.4F036886@virgin.net> <200203310632250552.5A478B7C@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CA9F818.C7735816@virgin.net>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 3/31/2002 at 10:58 AM Si wrote:
>
> >Guys ('n' gals),
> >
> >I am currently using the Judges Guild CT Referee's screen (the 4 page,
> >double-sided dark green one with the chunky writing - if there is more than
> >one).  As it is now getting on quite a bit (I am sure it must be well over 20
> >years old now, an age that most of us can only vaguely remember) and stuck
> >together with sellotape that is older than all 3 of my kids put together, i
> >would really like to print off a good version and get it laminated so i can
> >enjoy it for another 20+ years.  The problem is, i can't manage to scan a
> >decent copy and i don't want to photocopy it as i would ideally like an
> >electronic version I can manipulate a bit beforehand.
> >
> >does anyone on the TML have a decent electronic copy of this screen that they
> >could send me, or know how i can get a decent scan of it?
>
> Wait just a bit and you can have a brand new one!
>
> We (QLI) have a CT screen ready to go as soon as we print T20 (yeah yeah I know about the delays *grin*). The new screen is based in part on the original JG screen (we bought out the rights to the old JG Traveller material awhile back).
>
> Hunter

There is only so long i can wait dude

;-)

Seriously though, I intend to get the T20 stuff anyway, but i also want the original CT screen so i can run nostalgia games.

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:29:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:29:35 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: Accents and Bonuses
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020331073926.009f9080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9F88F.5EF04DC9@virgin.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 01:06 AM 3/31/02 -0800, you wrote:
> > >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> >
> > >How do you use the elevators?  You can't press the buttons on
> > >the Sabbath, nor can you ask someone to press your floor.
> >
> >The stairs you should take.  God forbid your heart should take that day off,
> >too.
>
> A solution if you have a room on the second or third floors..
>
> ObTrav: A ship crewed by Orthodox Jews sets up so they will spend Passover
> in jump.  They misjump, and come out of jump way early, on a course to hit
> something large and fatal.  Your characters are passengers on said
> ship..  Much fun happens.
>
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

Doubt it, you can break nearly every single law in order to save life (apart from
the total ban on cannibalism, murder and incest - i think)

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:47:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:47:55 -0700
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
>>This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
>>First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might
> 
> be.
> 
>>Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in
> 
> the
> 
>>game universe are - IMO - dubious.
> 
> 
> My main aim isn't to recreate the original Traveller sequence. If I'd
> wanted that, I'd just use it instead of First In  ;-)
> 
> However, I want roughly the same spread of intelligent races as in typical
> SF, ie the most common environment for sentinent life to evolve in is on
> Earthlike worlds.
> 
> I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might look
> under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary after a
> while.
> 
> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
> function using radically different biochemistries?

Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
reprinted in various places.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:52:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:52:24 -0700
Subject: [TML] Questions, questions
References: <102.1302b0d5.29db4876@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9FDE8.10303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to 
> remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible

Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's 
ridiculous as well. Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens, 
H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.

A more logical explanation would be that Gramps took H. hablis, geneered 
the species into H. sap, and re-seeded Terra, as well as Zhodane and 
Vland (and all the other planets) with the new species.

Would explain some of the more puzzling aspects of our evolution...

> 2) Can Hivers hold their breath?

Hold one under water and see...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:57:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 10:57:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <18.1cd71567.29db47c8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008701c1da78$3e3cfec0$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Tuesday, April 02, 2002 9:43 AM
CHam628781@aol.com said,

> Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs
> starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're
> borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.
>
> The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not
to
> let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can
probably
> see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information
than
> you wish to give out.

Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power
biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.  If the
security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.

> If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems
for
> opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch
> then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to
a
> specialist lock-smith.

If there is a mechanical system for opening the door than it comes down to
cutting the power to the doors locking mechanism so that you can operate the
manual.  This usually wouldn't be too difficult.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"I do not fear computers.  I fear the lack of them." -Isaac Asimov


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 19:13:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:13:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> from "laning" at Apr 02, 2002 05:29:18 AM
Message-ID: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>

Laning writes:
> One of the problems with the above approach is anyone with good credit and 
> a good business plan could build jump-5 or jump-6 ships and they would be 
> too common.  Which got me to wondering if I couldn't make the cost for jump 
> drives go up proportional to the square of the jump number.  Which in turn 
> got to me wondering if it would be a good idea to have the same type of 
> relationship for power plants and maneuver drives.  Probably yes to jump 
> drives and no to the others.

I've always wondered why ships cost so much, particularly given
the degree of automation & robot labor which ought to be available.
And the idea for starting the cost low and then going up exponentially
based on the range of jump seems like a good one, but it needs to be
justified somehow. It seems to me that in a setting where energy costs
plummet to near zero (due to access to fusion), and where labor costs
plummet to near zero (due to massive use of robotics), you end up with
an economic framework (at least at the higher tech levels) where the
only stuff that really costs a great deal of money are status items
(priced high due to cost of advertising), new technologies (due to
cost of unamortized designer hours), and rare materials (priced high
due to rarity). In terms of starships, particularly for designs which
have been around for centuries, the only one of these factors that
holds up is the rare materials factor. Hence, lanthanum comes to mind.

So making the most expensive item of a starship the jump grid makes a
certain amount of economic sense, and making the price increase
exponentally due to the necessary "density" of the grid also makes
sense. Nonetheless, it seems like a bit of an extreme proposition to
say that lanthanum costs as much as it must in order for starships to
work out as expensive as they are in Traveller. All, IMHO. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 19:21:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:21:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017775268.4978.ajackson@ping>

jimv writes:
> 
> I've always wondered why ships cost so much, particularly given
> the degree of automation & robot labor which ought to be available.

Well, you do realize that traveller starships are huge.

Basically, ships have to be expensive or you run into problems with the
economics of the setting.  If you want cheaper ships, I'd reduce the minimum
size of jump-capable ships below 100 dtons.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 19:57:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam Draper)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:57:34 -0700
Subject: [TML] Making FFS2 more like High Guard
In-Reply-To: <20020402170616.65F2C279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGAEAICFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>

I written some rules in an attempt to make FFS2 a little simpler to use.
The system covers TL 11-15, and displacements of between 10 and 1,000.
Larger ships would not be difficult to add, except that I did not want to
include all of the appropriately enormous sensors and weapons.  Mass and
surface area are not used for the most part, although they could be added
easily in optional rules.  If anyone would like to take a look, my webpage
can be found at www.lansrc.com/~draper/nsds.  I would appreciate any
suggestions or comments you might have.

Thanks,

Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:09:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:09:16 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <12d.f1855a6.29da07cd@aol.com>
References: <12d.f1855a6.29da07cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020402200916.0b4f8c3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> This is unlikely since the complexity of the ecosystem is likely to be 
> related to the available food sources at the bottom of the food chain.
These 
> will be severely limited on an Ice ball, even an old one. Hence the easy
way 
> round the problem is to cap the positive modifiers available for
non-ocean 
> worlds. I'd suggest +6 is a suitable number, altough I'm not an expert
on 
> First In so other numbres might be more suitable. 

A +6 modifier makes it impossible for complex animals to evolve under the
ice, although simple animals are still possible. Simpler lifeforms remain
rather common (37% of all icy rockballs with subsurface oceans get some
form of life).

I like this. I'll keep it for MTU.

After playing around with some modifiers for the other world types, I
finally found numbers I feel good about:

Additions to Step 15
====================
Age bonus for icy rockballs limited to +6
-5 for nitrogen worlds
-3 for ammonia worlds

This gives the following results:

Spread of complex life over all worlds in the TU
================================================
Subgiant :  1.4%
Nitrogen : 22.2%
Ammonia  : 18.7%
Desert   : 19.6%
Icy sub. :  0.0%
Earthlike: 38.1%

Chance of complex life on a world of a given type
=================================================
Subgiant :  6.3%
Nitrogen :  8.4%
Ammonia  :  7.7%
Desert   :  6.8%
Icy sub. :  0.0%
Earthlike: 77.2%

(the above data was collected from a large dataset)

I'll probably keep these numbers. In any case, the modifiers are included
in my program now, which means that the script on my webpage behaves
accordingly.

If there is enough interest, I could easily put up a script for the
unmodified rules as well.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:15:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:15:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] test (sorry)
In-Reply-To: <20020402200916.0b4f8c3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIKDJAA.tml@downport.com>

testing FROM



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:18:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:18:46 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402151321.02829d40@pop.wizard.net>

>JimV says:
<<<snip>>>
>So making the most expensive item of a starship the jump grid makes a
>certain amount of economic sense, and making the price increase
>exponentally due to the necessary "density" of the grid also makes
>sense. Nonetheless, it seems like a bit of an extreme proposition to
>say that lanthanum costs as much as it must in order for starships to
>work out as expensive as they are in Traveller. All, IMHO. -Jim

I agree.  Plus, I think jump grids are supposed to canonically always have 
the same density regardless of jump number.  I suppose we could charge a 
lot more for zuchai crystals.  A particular piece of canon I've always been 
too embarrassed to throw at my players.  I keep trying to promote Traveller 
as a relatively 'hard SF' game.  Whether it is hard, semirigid, or soft, 
zuchai crystals seem to drop it down to the level of camp, soft SF occupied 
by original Star Trek.

And I still have the problem of making hulls, manuever drives, power 
plants, and computers priced exponentially higher as their capability go 
up.  (Well, exponent of capability would be one factor in the equation.  It 
wouldn't be a raw relationship because that would make jump-6 or 
maneuever-6 just too expensive.)

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:24:03 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [TML] [ANNOUNCEMENT] Frontiers PBeM Campaign
In-Reply-To: <OF198476A5.770671F6-ON85256B8F.005B7FB4@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204022222490.168484-100000@svati>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, William Lane wrote:

><snip>
>  I'm setting up a PBeM in the Spinward Marches/Trojan Reaches
>sectors and are looking for some interested players.
></snip>
>
>I would like to play. i cant check traveller central from work so could you
>let me know what version of traveller you will be using? will the gm be
>making Pre-generated chars? if not can we request a pre generated char?
>

The game will be using GURPS with som modifications. There are some
pre-generated characters available, and I can also generated characters
according to your wishes. Just ask :-)

Cheers
Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:28:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:28:40 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <001f01c1d9c8$14f2af20$629193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <052601c1da84$f9e24b60$1f9e15ac@warrior>

surely you've heard of Sealand then :)

http://www.sealandgov.com/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)


>
> >
> > My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a
> > twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.
> >
> >
>
> I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air
force.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:26:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:26:17 +0000
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
Message-ID: <F150I5MQ8S8M30TqD1C000114f8@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
Cavalry.
     Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?
     Thanks in advance.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S. BTW, I'm recently back from a long business trip to Venezuela.  For 
those of you keeping score at home, you can now add Venezuela to the 
"Circling The Bowl" column of your nation/state scoresheets.  Indonesia and 
Zimbabwe may have had a head start, but Venezuela is coming up on the rail 
very quickly!


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:30:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:30:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017775268.4978.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402152005.027e07c0@pop.wizard.net>

Anthony Jackson writes:
>Well, you do realize that traveller starships are huge.
>
>Basically, ships have to be expensive or you run into problems with the
>economics of the setting.  If you want cheaper ships, I'd reduce the minimum
>size of jump-capable ships below 100 dtons.

I thought of that, but have three problems there.

First, it's highly unlikely tiny starships will be able to support 
themselves.  They'll be _somewhat_ cheaper to construct, but still probably 
greater than 10 megacredits, but maintenance and operations will eat the 
owner alive.

The price reduction isn't enough for purposes of MTU.

I'd like to see large starships be more practicable for governments, 
corporations, and individuals to own.  Not just make it possible for people 
of more limited means to acquire the starship equivalent of a Volkswagen 
bug or a Hyundai.

It seems to me cost of starship _should_ be driven not primarily by size of 
hull but the aggregation of components in it.  It should be possible to 
construct the equivalent of a tramp coastal freighter significantly less 
than one megacredit.  It will have bare bones navigation and maneuever 
ability, just enough to enable it to get various operating permits and just 
enough to qualify for insurance at fairly cheap rates.  If the owner(s) 
prosper, then they can upgrade and rebuild key components.  Bridge and 
electronics, drives and power plant.  But that is what starts to cost.  And 
weapon prices should remain unchanged from canon, by and large.

All of this is just _a_ Traveller universe I'd like to run.  I don't 
seriously propose it as a change to canon.  Although, hmmm maybe.  Maybe it 
would be nice to see alternate price rules offered in the books to referees 
who desire the same sort of game effects I'm talking about.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:28:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:28:12 -0700
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices
References: <ML-2.3.1017775268.4978.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CAA145C.2030502@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> jimv writes:
> 
>>I've always wondered why ships cost so much, particularly given
>>the degree of automation & robot labor which ought to be available.
> 
> 
> Well, you do realize that traveller starships are huge.

Traveller starships are vessels of a magnitude somewhere between a C5 or 
Boeing 767 and a medium sized freighter, neither of which is cheap.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:33:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:33:08 -0600
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
References: <F150I5MQ8S8M30TqD1C000114f8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAA1584.37136E3E@premier.net>


"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the
> kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal,
> pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard
> Cavalry.

According to GT:BtC, the kian is native to Prilissa (3035 Trin's Veil)
[page 121].

I don't know of kian stats in any game system.

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:41:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:41:28 +0100
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>
Message-ID: <005101c1da86$d5f683e0$5d9493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Wouldn't this make for an excellent GT supplement as well? That way, it
> might even see print...
>
>
>

You could pitch it to Quiklink as part of the PDF line supporting
T20/CT.....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:44:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:44:18 +0000
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
Message-ID: <F127LDp7mvjkO22ZhCl0000dc60@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?"


Mr. Kwon,

     Robots IMTU are little more than mobile, expert systems.  A pretty lame 
take on the subject, but creativity isn't one of my strong suits.
     The more robots deal with humans or operate within a general human 
setting, the more likely they'll be the upright, bipedal, anthromorphic 
robots of classic sci-fi.  A two-legged, vaguely human shaped, robot with 
arms and hands will be preferred as a steward or medic by most folks over a 
metal box on treads with tentacles.  Robots with "hands" will also be able 
to use the same utensils and tools the rest of the crew uses.
     Robots in industrial settings will be far less anthromorphic, in those 
settings function will drive form.
     The inclusion of the robot operations skill in later CT seemed to 
support my take on the subject.  While anyone could "use" a robot for simple 
purposes, only skilled operators could make full use of a robot's programmed 
skill set.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:51:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:51:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402152005.027e07c0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017780666.495.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> 
> I thought of that, but have three problems there.
> 
> First, it's highly unlikely tiny starships will be able to support 
> themselves.  They'll be _somewhat_ cheaper to construct, but still probably
>  greater than 10 megacredits, but maintenance and operations will eat the 
> owner alive.

Merchant ships pretty much need to be several tens of megacredits to have any
chance of business survival anyway.  The economics of scale at the low end are
too large.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:45:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:45:37 +1000
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices [was Re: Living...on an Airplane]
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> In other words, reduce hull, computer, maneuver, and power plant
> costs by probably two orders of magnitude but jump drives by only
> one.  Which still doesn't work out quite as tidily as I'd like.

That would start to eat into my suspension of disbelief,
unfortunately.  I would expect a spaceship the size of a small mansion
to cost at least a similar amount, and probably quite a bit more.
After all, a planet-based house doesn't have to protect you against
solar flares, vacuum, extremes of heat and cold, or move at thousands
of kilometres per second.


> I would like it if you could commission say a really nice yacht for 3 
> megacredits or less.  Which is still a huge sum of money.

Well, you can think of a 100 dton spaceship as being about the volume
of 100-foot luxury yachts, which apparently have a price tag of a few
million US dollars.  I don't think a spacecraft should cost a lot
less; quite the reverse.


>  Weaponry and shield costs would remain unmodified.  Or a 200-ton
> free trader for maybe just under 1 megacredit, built new.

My figures get close to this *without* a jump drive, at 1.5 MCr.  I
get jump-1 engine plus minimum fuel at 1.4 MCr, so getting close.


> Which got me to wondering if I couldn't make the cost for jump
> drives go up proportional to the square of the jump number.

IMO, they ought to.  Supposedly, the difficulty of building jump
drives with successive capabilities increases per *tech level*, so it
must be greatly more difficult.  At least comparable to the difference
between prop-driven craft and jets, for every jump number increase.

If you're fiddling with the figures, a doubling of cost per unit
volume each jump number wouldn't be out of line IMO.  That could give
a jump engine cost for a 200 dton ship of 1.2 MCr for jump-1, up to
140 MCr for jump-6. These figures would be in CrImp, not local
currency.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:49:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:49:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sW9A-0001AK-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> on 4/1/02 10:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com
> wrote: > > I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that
> difficult to > build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate
> power > battery.  
> 
> I have yet to be convinced that such things will work, and be at all
> effective.  Particularly as the  strength of burst will be inversely
> proportional to the to the square of the distance.  Has anyone
> actually seen a demonstration where this works?  It should be rather
> easy to test.
> 
> Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical
> martial arts 'death touch'.

Look at the article about them in the New Scientist of July 1, 2000

or look at

www.infowar.com/mil_c4i/mil_c4i8.html-ssi 
www.dallas.net/~pevler/jec.htm 
www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/ news/RFWeap.htm 

or look up flux compressors

The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures 
I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius 
kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:50:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:50:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I keep looking at the p-H3 reaction, and although it has a 
high hurdle for starting, it yields more energy per unit 
fuel, and is aneutronic.

Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
doesn't seem to be that hard to find.

It looks like you could build a much smaller H3 fusion 
reactor, not just from the standpoint of overall yield per 
unit fuel, but also because no energy would be wasted 
accelerating neutrons (70% of the D-T cycle is neutron 
energy), and there would be no need to have neutron 
shielding.  I can almost see the argument that the only way 
to get a "tabletop" fusion reactor would be to run it on H3.

Looking for a handwave for H3 reactors...

If you were suddenly able to take a TL15 (CT High Guard) 
powerplant, and say that an H3 reactor for the same output 
had a displacement 70% less...  the fuel consumption would 
also be smaller...  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:57:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:57:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017784677.311.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> I keep looking at the p-H3 reaction, and although it has a 
> high hurdle for starting, it yields more energy per unit 
> fuel, and is aneutronic.
> 
> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.

Well, it has essentially no natural abundance on earth, since most helium on
earth, IIRC, comes from alpha decay.  Aside from this problem, D-He3 is
considered a promising second-generation fusion fuel (p-He3 is much harder to
pull off, and no more useful).
> 
> It looks like you could build a much smaller H3 fusion 
> reactor, not just from the standpoint of overall yield per 
> unit fuel, but also because no energy would be wasted 
> accelerating neutrons (70% of the D-T cycle is neutron 
> energy), and there would be no need to have neutron 
> shielding.  I can almost see the argument that the only way 
> to get a "tabletop" fusion reactor would be to run it on H3.

You'll still get a significant chunk of high energy radiation.
> 
> Looking for a handwave for H3 reactors...
> 
> If you were suddenly able to take a TL15 (CT High Guard) 
> powerplant, and say that an H3 reactor for the same output 
> had a displacement 70% less...  the fuel consumption would 
> also be smaller...  

TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.  One
assumes the neutron problems have been solved.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:04:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:04:52 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sWO7-0004I7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:

> I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
> 
> (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> 
> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

In Jeopardy mode:

Heretics for 100: Who is Galileo

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:22:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:22:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sleeping In Starports, without Jimmy Hoffa
Message-ID: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.sleepinginairports.net/airports.htm

I remember (or my back remembers) sleeping in the airport at 
Frankfurt, waiting for a morning flight.

I suppose that the orbital facility might frown on this, 
considering that I would not only be taking up space, but 
breathing the air as well.

One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the 
price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial 
cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very 
much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be 
possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for 
mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the 
fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator 
runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to 
ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of 
the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.  The 
same device could also be used in recycling to return 
anything to its component atoms.

So, is that how the recycler works on the ship?  Is there 
some plasma separator in there, and it's all reduced to 
whatever the ship's environmental controls are interested 
in?  Dump the other ions into space?

Nice place for the Jimmy Hoffas of the future...

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:27:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:27:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16sW9A-0001AK-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B8CF6F3E.3427B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 1:49 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>> Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical
>> martial arts 'death touch'.
> 
> Look at the article about them in the New Scientist of July 1, 2000
> 
> or look at
> 
> www.infowar.com/mil_c4i/mil_c4i8.html-ssi
> www.dallas.net/~pevler/jec.htm
> www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/ news/RFWeap.htm
> 
> or look up flux compressors
> 
> The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures
> I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius
> kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.

Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find anything.  OK,
I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite terrorist building
these?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:43:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tim Little wrote:
>laning wrote:
> > In other words, reduce hull, computer, maneuver, and power plant
> > costs by probably two orders of magnitude but jump drives by only
> > one.  Which still doesn't work out quite as tidily as I'd like.
>
>That would start to eat into my suspension of disbelief,
>unfortunately.  I would expect a spaceship the size of a small mansion
>to cost at least a similar amount, and probably quite a bit more.
>After all, a planet-based house doesn't have to protect you against
>solar flares, vacuum, extremes of heat and cold, or move at thousands
>of kilometres per second.

Yes, but it's also the same size as a big quonset hut used as a storage 
shed and the hull doesn't need to cost a whole lot more.  In fact, given 
manufacturing capabilities of TTL 12+ industrial worlds, it may well cost 
less, complete with being airtight, radiation proof, and bracing sufficient 
to hold up against maneuvering stresses.

> > I would like it if you could commission say a really nice yacht for 3
> > megacredits or less.  Which is still a huge sum of money.
>
>Well, you can think of a 100 dton spaceship as being about the volume
>of 100-foot luxury yachts, which apparently have a price tag of a few
>million US dollars.  I don't think a spacecraft should cost a lot
>less; quite the reverse.
But the absolute cheapest spacecraft, with hardly yacht-like standards of 
creature comforts or other furnishings, costs about ten times what earth 
yachts cost.



> >  Weaponry and shield costs would remain unmodified.  Or a 200-ton
> > free trader for maybe just under 1 megacredit, built new.
>
>My figures get close to this *without* a jump drive, at 1.5 MCr.  I
>get jump-1 engine plus minimum fuel at 1.4 MCr, so getting close.

Which edition of Traveller rules are you going by?  I think we're talking 
apples and oranges to each other.

LBB 2 says 10 megacredits for the smallest jump drive.  I only have first 
edition (buggy) High Guard, and can't find _either_ of my MT Referee's 
Manuals.  My preferred ship construction rules are MT, since they're all 
together in one place, I like the fuel consumption better, I like being 
forced to balance both mass and volume, and I like Agility.  TNE's FFS goes 
way too far for me in complexity and is only rewarding for plucking certain 
components out of, not when building entire ships (IMHO).  T4's ship design 
rules...the less said, the better.  Although I intend to buy pieces of GT, 
ship construction isn't one of them.

I'd like to use MT rules, but don't have access to them.  IIRC, MT ship 
construction costs were very much in line with LBB 2 costs in most 
situations.  A little bit cheaper if you were going with minimum 
configurations, but not a lot.  I won't use the first edition High Guard in 
this discussion, since we all know they required major revision.  I think 
the standard free trader had major volume discounts etc. and MT sold it for 
something under 25 (?) megacredits because of its standardization.

Costs for the major components of an LBB 2 minimum configuration 200-ton 
ship follow.
200t hull:  8 megacredits
Type A power plant:  8 megacredits
Type A maneuver drive:  4 megacredits
Type A jump drive:  10 megacredits
Model 1 computer with no software:  2 megacredits
Total so far:  32 megacredits

No matter how cheap the hull for the above gets, the other major components 
are going to be a minimum of 24 megacredits.  <Doctor Evil voice> That's 
twenty-four _million_ of your Imperial credits. </Doctor Evil voice>  LOL.

Actually, LBB 2 sells a 200t hull at major discount for standardization, 
along with five other hull sizes.  "Custom" hull sizes are priced at 
cr100,000 per ton.

I'd like to see a 200-dt cost, for example, cr400,000, and the cost of the 
entire rest of a complete ship that's mostly just empty hull for cargo 
space add up to around another cr400,000.  Even then, a PC or group of PCs 
who are able to sell a ship for approaching 1 megacredit can almost run 
amok through the shopping lists for everything else they want.  I can see 
major discounts for buying/selling used, but I'm not comfortable going 
along with buying an old but still serviceable ship for one-tenth of 
original price.  If it's still serviceable, it shouldn't get lower than 
one-quarter of original price.  The only exception would be if a major 
component is likely to need replacing within the next year, that would 
greatly lower the cost.

I like the idea of hulls being the biggest expense in building a low-cost 
ship but I'm still looking at reducing their cost by an order of magnitude 
compared to LBB 2.  Once you buy a hull in decent condition, with a 
lanthanum jump grid, it is an attractive notion that the other components 
can be upgraded (or downgraded) over time.  Without requiring a sum equal 
to the GDP of some Third World countries.

I can rewrite prices to get pretty close to the effect I'm looking 
for.  But that would be inconvenient for my players.  The elegant (or is it 
lazy?) solution would be to tell players to just shift the decimal one or 
two places for each of the major starship components.  That way they could 
look at their rule book during the design sequence and not have to do a lot 
of mental gymnastics to figure out the impact of my house rule on prices.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:58:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:58:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CF6F3E.3427B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <E16sW9A-0001AK-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402175058.028900a0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn says, about EMP pipe bombs:

>Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find anything.  OK,
>I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite terrorist building
>these?

Off the top of my head:

What is its effectiveness against _shielded_ devices?

Terrorists usually like nice dramatic, visible results.  For immediate 
gratification, and for its propaganda value on the nightly television 
news.  EMPs are less than completely satisfying in this regard.

It's relatively new, give it more time.

ObTrav:  Most developed worlds will have good enough shielding in standard 
equipment that terrorists with EMP bombs can accomplish very little.

--Laning

PS  Wasn't an EMP bomb a plot device in the recent remake of 'Oceans Eleven'?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:53:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:53:24 -0600
Subject: [TML] GT starports and fuel
Message-ID: <3CAA3664.E63D6D4F@mail.cswnet.com>

Some ideas, questions, and thoughts to kick around....

First, A fix proposal:
Original text>
Page 72: "The average port should incorporate tankage at least equal to
.06 times the weekly displacement tonnage of starship served."

Additional text>
begining at the end of "served, times the distance in parsecs to the 
closest planetary system. The closest planetary system used for this
purpose may not be interdicted."

Second, the fuel blimp issue p73
Questions:
Could one use fuel blimps to pick up fuel from asteroid belts, assuming
that such belts had ice and the fuel blimp would be picking up the fuel
from a fuel mining station?

Text:"GM should ... assign a small craft cost of Mcr.001 to Mcr1
(averaging Mcr.01)per dt of total weekly starship traffic"

Why is the purpose have having a variation in cost for fuel blimps?
Why would it not be per dt of total weekly starship fuel used?

Three, conversion to CT/HG2
Anyone using GT:Starports for CT/HG2 purposes must remember to add
powerplant fuel to the port tankage requirement. 
Example: Arba has a weekly starship dt of 1050. For GT purposes,
assuming 3 day supply min., 1050*.06*2parsecs=126dt jumpfuel A full week
supply would be double this, 252dt. For CT/HG2, assume a minimum power
plant equal to minimum jump distance; in Arba's case, 2 parsecs.
1050*.01*2=21 for 4 weeks of operation, 10.5 for 2 weeks (enough for 
minimum jump, assuming no bumpy ride). This leaves us with a full weeks
supply for HG2 purposes of 262.5dt.

.01Cr for your thoughts...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:28:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:28:15 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402175058.028900a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8CF7E8F.34298%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 2:58 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Off the top of my head:
> 
> What is its effectiveness against _shielded_ devices?

How many targets are likely to be shielded?
> 
> Terrorists usually like nice dramatic, visible results.  For immediate
> gratification, and for its propaganda value on the nightly television
> news.  EMPs are less than completely satisfying in this regard.

Not necessarily.  There are sophisticated terrorists, particularly state
sponsored ones.  Think of the impact EMP could have on banks and credit
firms.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:32:03 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy Analysis
Message-ID: <20020402233203.5927.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I would assume (there I go with my assumptions again)
that anyone willing to commit piracy would also be
willing to skip. And it's much, much easier to just
skip.
END QUOTE

Except some of the things that make piracy hard such
as always on transponders and huge sensor arrays, also
make it hard to skip. After all there is no point
skipping if you can't sell your ship our make money
through trade or piracy or smuggling. It would be
easier to decalre yourself bankrupt. That is of course
if MyMines don't get hold of you.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:43:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 01:43:39 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <20020402200103.89CDB279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204030126270.19159-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Bruce Johnson writes:
>CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
>>1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to
>>remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible
>
>Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
>ridiculous as well.

No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H. erectus_
and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
showing up as early as that.

But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In
the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place
_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.

>Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens,
>H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.

_H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.

[*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.


Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:49:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204030126270.19159-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <B8CF8370.3429F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 3:43 PM, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen at rancke@diku.dk wrote:

> _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
> mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
> reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
> but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
> 
> [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.

Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are
interfertile.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:56:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:56:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #372 - 42 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020402170616.65F2C279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402155400.00a4c780@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 02 Apr 2002 08:03:56 -0800, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> 
wrote:

>I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
>
>(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
>
>100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

*scratches head*  Knowing Galileo is geeky?  I thought that was called 
"educated."


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:05:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:05:43 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> In fact, given manufacturing capabilities of TTL 12+ industrial
> worlds, it may well cost less, complete with being airtight,
> radiation proof, and bracing sufficient to hold up against
> maneuvering stresses.

That's an argument for making *everything* cost less, not just
starships.  In fact, GT *does* make high-tech worlds a lot richer than
low-tech ones, so this matches pretty well.


> But the absolute cheapest spacecraft, with hardly yacht-like
> standards of creature comforts or other furnishings, costs about ten
> times what earth yachts cost.

I get the cheapest manned interplanetary spacecraft as costing about
50 kCr new at TL 10.  That's not a lot more than an expensive new car.


> Which edition of Traveller rules are you going by?  I think we're talking 
> apples and oranges to each other.

Probably.  I'm using GURPS Traveller and GURPS Vehicles, and dividing
jump drive costs by 10 (but no other changes).


> Although I intend to buy pieces of GT, ship construction isn't one
> of them.

The basic GURPS Traveller book has a modular starship construction
system, so you might find it hard to avoid :)


> Costs for the major components of an LBB 2 minimum configuration 200-ton 
> ship follow.
> 200t hull:  8 megacredits

Ouch!  Under GURPS Vehicles, I can get the cost down to under 0.02 MCr!
(if it doesn't have to land on a planet)

> Type A power plant:  8 megacredits

Double-ouch!  Much less than 0.1 MCr under GT (depending on other
ship's systems).

> Type A maneuver drive:  4 megacredits

Triple-ouch!  If you can accept low acceleration, this could be as low
as you like in most design systems.

> Type A jump drive:  10 megacredits

Yeah, about what GURPS Traveller uses.  By far the biggest expense of
a starship, but not relevant to a mere spaceship.

> Model 1 computer with no software:  2 megacredits

Quadruple-ouch!  You can get away with a few tens of thousands at most
for a bare redundant computer system under GURPS.


Wow, the LBBs really do hit your wallet *hard*!  I suggest using some
other design system if you want lower costs.  *Any* other design
system.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:07:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:07:30 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
Message-ID: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
But your troubles are only just *beginning* -- their
cargo manifest includes 10 dtons of live penguins ...
END QUOTE

PC's on a derelict free trader:
PC1: "Hmmm, blood everywhere but no bodies"
PC2: "The only thing on the manifest is penguins, yet
the cargo bay is empty"
PC3: "Who would slaughter an entire ships crew for
penguins?"
PC2: "They also took the small craft"
PC1: "Whats that noise?"
PC3: "What noise?"
PC1: "Sounded like flapping of some kind"
PC2: "Lets get back to the ship"
PC1: "Okay lets go. <speaking into com> Hey Samantha,
light up the drives where out of here"
<No response>
PC1: "Samantha?, do you read?"
PC2: "Hey wheres Jimmy?"
PC1: <Spinning around to search for Jimmy> "Jimmy,
jimmy?"
<END RECORDING>

James







=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:08:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #372 - 42 msgs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402155400.00a4c780@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <B8CF87E8.342AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 3:56 PM, Kelly St.Clair at kellys@efn.org wrote:

>> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
> 
> *scratches head*  Knowing Galileo is geeky?  I thought that was called
> "educated."

It's even in the digest:

"When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:16:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:16:28 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
Message-ID: <20020403001628.32715.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

Speaking of villians with english accents reminds me
of a scene from Buffy:the vampire slayer. The english
librarian nearly gets killed by a demon and somebody
says:
"I bet your whole life flashed before your eyes, cup
of tea, cup of tea, nearly got shagged, cup of tea"

ObTrav: Sneaky intelligence agents have french
accents, even if they are Zhodani ;) Speaking of which
what would a Zhodani accent be comparable too?

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:28:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:28:43 PST
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204010842.AAA08687@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20402.152843.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?  What does canon say on =
>>this?
>
> Canon says little that I know of.  Generally, I assume it's hard.
>
>>Some parameters here:  I'm not talking about hijacking a ship, nor am I =
>>talking about ship theft incidental to piracy.
>>
>>Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved in stealing a =
>>starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.
>>
>>It seems to me the problem can be considered as four separate issues:

>>3.  Entering the vessel.
>>
>>Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let you in. <g> =20
>>
>>How do starships determine who to admit?  Whoever holds the key?  =
>>Voiceprints?  Biometrics?  Passwords?  Some combination?  Given =
>>sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar (doubtful) or a cutting =
>>torch (probably)? =20
>
> For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't get
> in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
> send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
> do the ship much good, however.

Also, it can't be *too* hard. there will be lots of situations when the
crew wants to get inside *fast*, or they may be a bit "damaged" or
"incapacitated". Or both.

Entry should be merely difficult enough to dissaude *amatuers*. Pros
will get in anyway, so the extra efforts isn't really justifiable in
terms of cost/benefit. 

>>Having forced your way in what active countermeasures do you have to =
>>defeat?  Does the ship send combat bots?  Does the environmental system =
>>become hostile?  Does an anti theft program deliberately destroy the =
>>Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the j-drive useless?
>
> Most likely, none of the above; the ship yells for help and goes into 
> lockdown mode.  Paranoid owners could easily equip the ship with kill
> switches in a few critical concealed junctions.

"Mantrap" type defenses (ie possibly injurious or lethal defenses not
under human control) are a great way to get yourself in *big* trouble
at least in most of the civilized world now. 

As an example, while many jurisdictions say that you can shoot an
intruder who invades your home while you are inside, those same
jurisdictions will be all over you for setting a beartrap when you
aren't home.

The Imperium may be looser about this, but I wouldn't count on it too
far. 

Also, do you *really* want to risk getting killed if there's a bug in
those automated defenses?

>>4.  Establishing vessel control.
>>
>>Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do you get the starship =
>>to respond to your commands?  When you plop down on the pilot's couch =
>>what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver drive?  =
>>Again, is there a key?  Biometrics?  PIN numbers?  How much trouble =
>>would there be in performing the starship analog of a hot-wire job?
>
> For higher tech ships, most likely you're defeating biometrics, plus a
> rather smart robot brain.  Unless you can steal startup information from
> the owner, most likely you're talking hours or days of work, particularly
> if kill switches have been installed.

Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...

But the biggest problem with stealing a starship on the ground will be
getting away. 

At all but the smallest ports, it'd be rather like trying to steal an
airliner from an airport, or a large ocean going vessel from a port.
The tower or the portmaster is going to want to know why you are making
an unscheduled departure. And if you don't have good answers, the Coast
Guard or Air Guard will be there in a hurry.

Stealing a orbit capable vessel (shuttle, etc) would likely be easier.
More like stealing small yacht or a small planes. Way too many of them
and they don't follow schedules. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:38:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:38:10 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>

> From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
> Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's
> kind of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not doing
> any more jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the
> character becomes motivated to take this one, last job.

In fact it's such a "classic bit" that I am considering playing it as a solo
game.

Unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable mission!  : (

I've got a couple of ideas about how to run it, though.  They might be of
interest to the other solo players on the list.

I'm thinking of having a list of possible "patrons", and not deciding which
is actually responsible until my character goes through the exercise of
finding out.  I might also have a set of contacts and potential allies, who
have to be approached and brought into the mission.  All of this takes time,
and possibly travel, and may not be successful.  There will also be other
factions interfering - again, these would be anonymous until identified the
hard way.  There would be some "just plain random" encounters as well.

The idea would be lots of paranoia.  Who is that that is tailing you?  Were
those thugs in the alley working for the other side, or were they just
thugs?  Who were the guys with the plasma guns that blew them away?

Of course there would have to be a list of mapped locations, with some
related NPCs.

Success would come from mobilising your own possible assets, finding out who
else is in the game, thwarting their plans, and working towards your own
devastating exercise in turning the tables on the jerks blackmailing you.

The plot itself would be a McGuffin hunt, shaped by "just in time" random
generation, plus incidents of "a man with a gun enters the room".  It could
be hopelessly convoluted and pointless, or it could be The Maltese Falcon.
Or The Millenium Falcon.

Now all I need is the time and energy to develop these ideas...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:12:07 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7@aol.com>

--part1_ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power
biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.  If the
security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.
 
   Hmmm...A goofy idea just occured to me. Someone outside in their suit 
could manually crank open this small access plate that'd allow him to place 
his head inside. His helmet's visor could then be opened (by servos?) so he 
could do face-to-scanner interaction with the ship, and thus, get the ship to 
open the hatch. Try to fake out the computer and you suddenly discover your 
head is inside a guillotine. Sure wouldn't like to be there when the computer 
decides to acquire a glitch in its programming :)
  -Ken-

"You are born with the yearning arrow, my Glynna.  It is not a happy thing
to possess... It points to the stars, and when it cannot reach them, it falls 
back to pierce your heart."
    - Wind (Isobelle Carmody, "Darkfall")
    




--part1_ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
<BR>intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power
<BR>biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit. &nbsp;If the
<BR>security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
<BR>vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
<BR>other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.
<BR> </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Hmmm...A goofy idea just occured to me. Someone outside in their suit could manually crank open this small access plate that'd allow him to place his head inside. His helmet's visor could then be opened (by servos?) so he could do face-to-scanner interaction with the ship, and thus, get the ship to open the hatch. Try to fake out the computer and you suddenly discover your head is inside a guillotine. Sure wouldn't like to be there when the computer decides to acquire a glitch in its programming :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">"You are born with the yearning arrow, my Glynna. &nbsp;It is not a happy thing
<BR>to possess... It points to the stars, and when it cannot reach them, it falls 
<BR>back to pierce your heart."
<BR>    - Wind (Isobelle Carmody, "Darkfall")</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:16:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:16:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CF7E8F.34298%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402175058.028900a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402195900.00a95950@pop.wizard.net>

At 03:28 PM 4/2/02 -0800, you wrote:
>on 4/2/02 2:58 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
>
> > Off the top of my head:
> >
> > What is its effectiveness against _shielded_ devices?
>
>How many targets are likely to be shielded?
Government property and some industrial/commercial stuff.

I guess one of the best targets for the determined Luddite with an EMP bomb 
(hmm, is that an oxymoron?) would be MAE EAST.  I doubt it's shielded well 
enough.


> >
> > Terrorists usually like nice dramatic, visible results.  For immediate
> > gratification, and for its propaganda value on the nightly television
> > news.  EMPs are less than completely satisfying in this regard.
>
>Not necessarily.  There are sophisticated terrorists, particularly state
>sponsored ones.  Think of the impact EMP could have on banks and credit
>firms.
Yeah, I know.  :-<

At the risk of offending or jangling someone's nerves, those people still 
seem to prefer driving airliners full of avgas into the World Trade Center 
over something that invisibly makes machines stop working.  Partly for 
propaganda as stated above, but also because I think bin Laden and the 
hijackers who did those acts are sick pukes and get their jollies in sick ways.

Lest anyone think I am asserting that the very nature of terrorists makes 
us safe from any of them ever trying an EMP attack, I don't.  In fact, I 
think it is inevitable.  Just as I thought crashing a hijacked airliner 
into the Pentagon or White House or Capitol dome has been inevitable since 
it first occurred to me sometime...sometime around when the first three 
LBBs were published.  Not that there's any connection between the 
two.  It's just that even perfectly innocent people were dreaming up such 
things 25 years ago, and it turns out someone should have been taking those 
stray ideas much more seriously.

If the Gruppenfuhrer for Fatherland Security, er um I mean the Director of 
Homeland Security, ever gets around to it then he should already be pushing 
for hardening key governmental and commercial facilities and infrastructure 
like our power grid.  And looking for ways to trace sales of the rarer 
components required for assembling an EMP bomb capable of affecting a large 
area.

See guys?  Living in undefended New Zealand has its advantages.  All you 
have to do is worry about what to do with all that sheep dung and 
wool.  The folks in the States have to worry about junk like this.

Ever the tenacious one, I seek an ObTrav.  The Ine Givar come to mind, and 
what might their history be with successful and less than successful 
attempts at terror attacks?  Including what they may or may not have tried 
with EMP bombs and it went if they did.  We already know of that unpleasant 
nuclear thing.

--Laning (who often wonders if the National Security Agency in the US is 
driven buggy trying to figure out how to deal with the content that gamers 
put on the Internet)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:23:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:23:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8d0082a2e41@[143.232.119.186]>

On rule of thumb in security is that the hard you make it for 
unwarranted intrusion, the harder you make it for authorized people 
(you can't wear gloves for the thumb print, a cold alters your voice, 
etc.)

In some ways you can claim an entry code is the most secure (you can 
have the computer detect people trying to cycle through all the 
possible combinations), but in the end anything will be bypassible if 
you try hard enough.

Now starships are valuable, and there seems to be examples of people 
leaving them unattended, so I would guess the security to prevent 
intrusion would be high enough that it would be take a lot of effort 
to get in.  The crew will have to accept difficulties in getting in. 
That assumes the ship is unattended.  If there is crew on board, the 
security will be much lighter, just enough to keep someone from 
stolling on board.

I doubt security internally would be that great since the main goal 
will be to keep unauthorized people from wandering around and you 
don't want to obstruct a crewman in a hurry.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:26:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:26:08 +0200
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020403012608.08423dc6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.

Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:29:05 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
> reprinted in various places.

I Google'd around, but all I could find was webpages mentioning it. It
would seem that it is available in various paper reprints, but not on the
web. Sad...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:31:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020402.173115.-2657.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:12:07 EST MurfNMurf@aol.com writes:
>
>    Hmmm...A goofy idea just occured to me. Someone outside in their 
suit  could manually crank open this small access plate that'd allow him 
to place  his head inside. His helmet's visor could then be opened (by 
servos?) so he  could do face-to-scanner interaction with the ship, and
thus, get  the ship to  open the hatch. 

Open the pod bay doors Hal.

I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now.

Hal, open the pod bay doors.

I'm sorry Dave.

HAL! 

Yes Dave.

Hal, I've got to go to the bathroom!

I'm sorry Dave



..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:28:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:28:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
References: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>

At 4:20 AM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example. 
>Paying passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them 
>through the passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger areas 
>of the ship.  Each keycard is unique to each passenger, and so the 
>same card gets them into their own private cabin.  Crew will have 
>similar cards, that give them more freedom, and exactly how much and 
>which greater freedoms would depend on the crew member's billet.

I really don't see the crew needing card to move about the ship. 
That is going to get old in a hurry, could be a problem in an 
emergency, and is unecessary.

In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go 
where they shouldn't.  You wouldn't actually lock things unless they 
were particularly sensitive or valuable or someone had leasure to get 
into somplace they shouldn't (like an isolated closet).  This is 
similar to what ships use today.

-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:37:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:37:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <20402.152843.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204010842.AAA08687@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>

The esteemed Leonard Erickson wrote, including quotes from Texas Redshift:
> > For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't get
> > in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
> > send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
> > do the ship much good, however.
>
>Also, it can't be *too* hard. there will be lots of situations when the
>crew wants to get inside *fast*, or they may be a bit "damaged" or
>"incapacitated". Or both.
>
>Entry should be merely difficult enough to dissaude *amatuers*. Pros
>will get in anyway, so the extra efforts isn't really justifiable in
>terms of cost/benefit.
I agree but only a little bit.  The penalty when you do lose a ship (and 
probably some lives at the same time) is very large.  Typically hundreds of 
millions.  Yes, it is a touchstone of security that no security system is 
perfect, and you shouldn't spend excess effort on attempting to perfect 
your security beyond a point that is appropriate to your degree of risk and 
the cost if security fails.  Even one fat trader or passenger liner lost is 
going to drive everyone's insurance rates through the roof and may risk 
putting the insurer financially on the ropes.  If nobody else does, then 
insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security 
measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time 
and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.

The military will probably take a very different approach.  They'll rely on 
numerous armed crewmembers and armed ships in the area, and not bother with 
all the automated stuff.  The personnel and other vessels have to be there 
anyway, it isn't like it costs them extra.

> > Most likely, none of the above; the ship yells for help and goes into
> > lockdown mode.  Paranoid owners could easily equip the ship with kill
> > switches in a few critical concealed junctions.
>
>"Mantrap" type defenses (ie possibly injurious or lethal defenses not
>under human control) are a great way to get yourself in *big* trouble
>at least in most of the civilized world now.
I agree this will be a problem, but the Traveller universe's legal 
standards are not the same as the USA's.  As we all have reminded ourselves 
in the past during other discussions.  I did allude in my own earlier post 
to liability insurance possibly being voided by installation of security 
hardware capable of inflicting physical harm.  Even my trick with the grav 
plates may be rather expensive to get insurance for.  (Personally, I'd want 
it anyway, just not in sleeping quarters.)  IMTU, a ship without valid 
insurance finds itself unable to get permits for travelling most places in 
the Imperium.  Starport authorities don't want them around, booking agents 
won't want to sell passenger tickets for them, etc.

Oh, I'm not sure that the phrase "kill switches" was supposed to mean 
mantrap defenses.  I think it may have meant disabling critical ship's 
systems.  Perhaps a triphammer smashes the zuchai crystals.  <G>


>As an example, while many jurisdictions say that you can shoot an
>intruder who invades your home while you are inside, those same
>jurisdictions will be all over you for setting a beartrap when you
>aren't home.
>
>The Imperium may be looser about this, but I wouldn't count on it too
>far.
>
>Also, do you *really* want to risk getting killed if there's a bug in
>those automated defenses?
Few will, so even if they're able to obtain insurance and overcome the 
other issues, the minute someone points out to the risk to them of being 
hoist by their own petard, most owners/captains will drop the idea.

>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
>someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
>attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...
I see we've met some of the same player characters.  :->


>But the biggest problem with stealing a starship on the ground will be
>getting away.

Yes.  Exactly.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:34:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:34:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204030134.DFP01107@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite 
>terrorist building these?
>--

You have me there.  I think that there are a fair number of 
people on this list who are capable of manufacturing a flux 
compression generator, and a vircator (or obtaining something 
like it).

None of the technology involved in making such a device is 
restricted in the US other than the explosives.

It reminds me of a railgun in reverse, except you have an 
explosive driving the short back down the gun, and the power 
has nowhere to go except into a smaller and smaller area.  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:36:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
In-Reply-To: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]>

In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would 
tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary 
arrays.....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:40:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:40:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204030140.DFP01461@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>How many targets are likely to be shielded?

The literature I've been reading says that if your equipment 
is not completely enclosed in a Faraday cage, and you're 
inside the effective radius, your equipment is toast.

Antennae and metal cables that protrude outside the cage, or 
fiber cables that go through metal conduits will act as a 
waveguide if the bomb uses microwaves.

Think of the kind of shielding that was necessary for 
shielding against nuclear EMP.  The conventional EMP bomb has 
two advantages: longer pulse time and tunable frequency (by 
design).
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:41:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:41:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com> <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>


"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
> In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
> tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
> arrays.....

Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:46:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:46:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <20020403001628.32715.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402203829.027db060@pop.wizard.net>

James asks:
>ObTrav: Sneaky intelligence agents have french
>accents, even if they are Zhodani ;) Speaking of which
>what would a Zhodani accent be comparable too?

People who use the "zh" sound a lot?  Perhaps they are all French, since 
typically the letter J is pronounced as a zh sound en Francais.  Wargamers 
being the lot we typically are, it is hard to keep them from sinking into 
Monty Python and the Holy Grail shtick whenever French accents come up, 
however.  That is not desirable.

I'm drawing a blank for "zh" speakers.  Places that are vaguely middle 
eastern or central asian come to mind for some reason, but nothing specific.

I've always _wanted_ to give my Zhos accents, so this is definitely a 
worthwhile thread if we can derive an answer.

OTOH, it's silly to imagine that all people in a star-spanning empire have 
the same accent.  I mean, we can't even get all people on Terra to have the 
same accent.  There are hundreds of languages here, often extremely 
different from each other.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:45:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:45:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204030145.DFP01794@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>See guys?  Living in undefended New Zealand has its 
>advantages.  All you have to do is worry about what to do 
>with all that sheep dung and wool.  The folks in the States 
>have to worry about junk like this.
>

Well, they do have to worry about their government going 
silly on them.  That, and there's a story about a coffee 
roaster who was forced to stop roasting coffee at all hours 
(seems the neighbors didn't like the smell).

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:57:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:57:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>

>Tim Little, after comparing GURPS ship construction costs to LBB 
>construction costs, says:
>Wow, the LBBs really do hit your wallet *hard*!  I suggest using some
>other design system if you want lower costs.  *Any* other design
>system.

Actually, all the nonGURPS Traveller ship construction rules will produce 
results _much_ closer to the LBB prices than to GURPS prices.  And from 
what I've skimmed in the GURPS rules, I'd rather not switch to them, 
thanks.  I like MT ship building.

I think the original idea behind such expensive ships was to avoid having a 
Jetsons future where everyone can drive the family car to another planet 
for a weekend jaunt.  They wanted to have put high, but not impossibly 
high, barriers to frequent travel between star systems.  Otherwise there's 
no reason to believe that each the civilizations on each planet will remain 
distinctly different from each other after 1,100 years of being in the same 
Imperium and rubbing elbows all the time.

If you want worlds to have truly unique and _alien_ differences from each 
other, then you have to make travel between worlds be rare.   Which also 
makes the traveller (our intrepid player character) herself be rare and 
special.  That adds to escapist pleasure of roleplaying.

And I buy into all that, I do.  But I think we won't significantly alter 
traffic levels if we make ships hugely cheaper but still the province only 
of the very wealthy, a well funded corporation, or a government.  In fact, 
I am suspicious that canonical ship construction is so expensive that it 
can't properly account for the numbers of trade vessels that are required 
to support the massive trade going on between developed worlds.  Not that 
I've crunched any numbers, mind you.  Just talking through my...hat.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:05:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:05:35 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402205809.027d9ba0@pop.wizard.net>

At Alan Bradley quoted and wrote:
> > From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
> > Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's
> > kind of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not doing
> > any more jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the
> > character becomes motivated to take this one, last job.
>
>In fact it's such a "classic bit" that I am considering playing it as a solo
>game.
>
>Unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable mission!  : (
>
>I've got a couple of ideas about how to run it, though.  They might be of
>interest to the other solo players on the list.
I'm interested.  Especially if you can come up with practical ways for the 
bad guys to throw some real surprises at you.  Maybe all those with 
interest in solo play should write our own interactive scripts to post on 
Web sites and then go play on each other's Web sites?

(I'm definitely interested in seeing how successful a game design the new 
NeverWinter Nights will be.  And then applying that to other genres besides 
the Tolkien-cloned D&D games.  Like, science-fiction role-playing 
games.  The basic concept of anyone with a computer and network connection 
being able to tailor their own game world to their own game server and 
leave it up for other players is an interesting one.  EverQuest for 
Everyman, kind of thing.)

Keep us posted on your progress, please, Alan.

--Laning
"I'm leavin'....on a jet plane
  Don't know when I'll be back again
  Oh, babe
  I hate to go"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:16:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:16:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <200204030216.DFQ00018@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>If you want worlds to have truly unique and _alien_ 
>differences from each other, then you have to make travel 
>between worlds be rare.   Which also makes the traveller 
>(our intrepid player character) herself be rare and 
>special.  That adds to escapist pleasure of roleplaying.
>

I've recently come to the same conclusion, and the main 
handwave that I use is that there is a maximum size jump 
drive that can be built at each TL, and therefore a maximum 
size ship (regardless of how much cash you have).

Having re-read the Kinunir (I know, I know..) they talk about 
one of the ships in the class not being able to reach its 
full jump potential.  I therefore like the idea that you can 
build to a jump number, but whether or not you get it 
consistently with every ship in the class is something else.  
This means that a military ship may go through several refits 
in order to achieve its potential.  Reminds me of some 
fighter aircraft (the F-14 springs to mind) that didn't get 
decent engines until later in their useful life.  And some 
started with engines that were positively lethal.

I know that there are a lot of people who like the big spinal 
mounts, but I've reduced the maximum tonnage of ships to a 
fairly linear plot from 5000 tons at TL 9 to 20,000 tons at 
TL 15 (CT/HG).  I'm also assuming that the larger the ship, 
the more likely that the jump drive will be problematic.  
This explains the use of relatively small ships (200 and 400 
ton) despite the fact that with either HG or MT, much larger 
ships should completely Microsoft, I mean, replace all 
smaller vessels.

Also, I believe (John The Heretic) that abusing your jump 
drives leads to damage that is never really undone.  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:17:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:17:46 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <001f01c1da40$0a82f040$2c5d8690@computer>
References: <20020402064409.B8250279FA@mail.travellercentral.com> <001f01c1da40$0a82f040$2c5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <dhpkauca8tq85ip65jgf2n884na681gjhc@4ax.com>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:14:25 +1000, "Alan Bradley"
<abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:

>> From: JR Holmes=20
>> This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
>> There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
>> (or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
>> sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
>> example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.
>>=20
>> =3D46rom a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become =
part
>> of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
>> destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
>> becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.
>
>You evil naughty man...

And you wouldn't do the the same?

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:30:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:30:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>

Jens Rydholm quoted then opined:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been
> > reprinted in various places.
>
>I Google'd around, but all I could find was webpages mentioning it. It
>would seem that it is available in various paper reprints, but not on the
>web. Sad...

Sad?  Not if you talk to Harlan Ellison.  It's another intellectual 
property debate.  Artists and other creators have no capitalist incentive 
to share their work if it can be freely copied.  And, like any other 
property, they feel it's only fair that they be able to bequeath to their 
heirs.  Harlan is quite adamant about passing his IP rights (and royalties) 
down to his daughters.  He's hardly alone.  And anyone on the list who is 
still collecting royalties of some kind on their own published material 
takes more than a theoretical interest, I suppose.

I am on both sides of the fence (I'm like Jeremy the Nowhere Man in 'Yellow 
Submarine' or the Scarecrow in 'The Wizard of Oz').  I sympathize with 
Harlan Ellison and others.  I also feel strongly that sharing knowledge has 
less value to the human race if the knowledge is only shared with those who 
can pay for it.  The Internet is a great democratizer of knowledge 
sharing.  (It's more a socialist thing than a democracy thing, but it's not 
generally acceptable in the States to express it that way.)

I love usenet and mailing lists and even the WWW and email.  Everyone can 
share all their information freely!  And some of it is even accurate!  And 
I love that writers can make a living by writing!  Uh-oh, wait, I have a 
problem here.

What mechanisms are in place within the Imperium, or in other entities, for 
owners of IP rights to protect them against abuse on other planets?  I 
think the TML has tried to delve into this in the past, but always kind of 
veered away.  Or if we covered it, I was on hiatus from the TML due to 
traffic levels and shortage of time.  Certainly, it is not a condition of 
membership in the Imperium for member worlds to enforce any such 
mechanisms.  Does the Imperium still play a large role?  Perhaps backing a 
voluntary, but widely adhered to, accord or convention on IP rights?  Is 
part of the extensive data traffic between member worlds is updates to 
databases that track book sales, TriD sales, etc.?  In contract disputes 
over royalties where the parties to the dispute reside on different worlds, 
how are they resolved?

By the way, Jens, have you read Hal Clement's 'Mission of Gravity'?  A 
great example of intelligent alien life forms evolving on a world extremely 
different from Terra.  A just plain extreme world, in fact.  Clement opens 
the hood and lets us peer into a lot of the alien building he does.  The 
book's a classic, in fact.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:00:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:00:59 PST
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204011745.g31Hji001663@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20402.180059.2g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> As I've mentioned before, I've been toying w/ the idea of
> inertial suppression as a means of fast accelleration in an
> sf-rpg I'm *slowly* putting together w/ the help of some
> friends. However, there's some conflict over how to achieve
> this (I can email two articles which hint at the scientific
> premise to anyone who's interested). There's also the problem
> of unintended consequences. Since inertial suppression also
> exists in Traveller (so that ships can accellerate at 6G
> w/o squashing their crews), it might be a good idea to
> consider these consequences for a bit.

No. Inertial *compensation* exists in Traveller. Inertial
*suppression/neutralization* is a different matter.

The effects in Traveller could be simply created by an additional
component to the ship's artifical gravity that is equally and opposite
to the acceleration from the drive. The inertial mass of the contents
of the ship is unchanged, but a counteracting force is applied
uniformly to them

True inertia neutralization (or suppression) changes F=ma to F=kma
where k is a constant (or variable) determined by the degree of
neutralization. 

In effect, you are changing the inertial mass of the objects in
question. If this was what was happening in Traveller, then you
couldn't throw a ball across a compartment. As soon as you quit
pushing, the air resistance would stop it. 

BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
playing "grav pong" with hijackers.

> Basically, if I read him right, what he appears to be saying is that
> if you lower inertia in a given space by 99%, people in that area will
> have much more strength than they're used to having, because the
> chemical reactions going on in their bodies which generate energy
> will still be generating as much energy, but for a much smaller
> apparent mass, meaning that they'll be able to perform extrodinary
> feats (and quite possibly hurt themselves), and that the only way
> around this is to downscale everything else, which generates a
> very strange and inconsistent reality.
>
> What do other people think about this argument?

Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects. 

There's also the question as to whether or not gravitational mass and
inertial mass are the same thing. Last I heard, experiments had shown
that they were the same to with 1 part in something like 10^12, but
it's still an *assumption* that they are the same thing.

But assuming that you can live thru the process, then it'd be best to
ignore all the effects at the sub-molar level (ie molecular and lower).

This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:15:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:15:59 PST
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204011749.DDD03964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20402.181559.4K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
> effects when you modify Planck's constant.

Starting with minor things like matter as we know it not being possible
if you tweak it more than a *tiny* bit.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:17:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:17:51 PST
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204020013.g320DTU02643@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20402.181751.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
>> effects when you modify Planck's constant.
>
> Not talking about modifying Planck's constant. Only talking about
> modifying inertia. Tim introduced the idea of modifying Planck's
> constant as a device to keep strangeness from happening when
> inertia is modified, but I'm not 100% sure that inertial suppression
> would necessarily result in strangeness in the first place. Trying
> to get some thoughts on the matter.

The attraction between particles (molecules, etc) would be the same.
But their (effective) mass would be lower. Making the accelerations due
to the forces higher. Which would give the *effect* of making the
forces stronger.

That's why I said that it'd be best to just handwave all the stuff at
the molecular and lower layers. Dealing with the effects at the "gross"
(molar) level is gonna be hairy enough.

The only writers that have ever dealt with this that I can recall are
E.E. Smith in the Lensman series, and one small section of one of
Heinlein's Future History stories (the one that introduces the Howard
Familes, and which I cannot recall the title of)-:

I do like one idea of Smith's. Namely that you retain your original
velocity vector while "free". If you are doing partial neutralization,
things would get messier, but they'd still be doable. 

This provides a nice complication in that when you restore inertua, you
have to worry about which direction that vector point. If it's aimed at
a nearby solid object, Ouch!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:39:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:39:06 -0700
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> or look up flux compressors 
> 
> The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures 
> I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius 
> kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.
> 
> Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find
> anything.  OK, I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite
> terrorist building these? --

That's a very good question.  I've read speculation that they may 
have been used in some places, but I'd think the evidence would be 
pretty obvious (lots of fried computers).  At that point, I'm guessing 
that most terrorists want to see blood far more than lost data.

OTOH, I wonder if more some of the more hard-line 
environmentalist groups like Green Peace and Earth First know 
about these things, maybe I'll send them a link :)

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:42:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:42:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
 <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402213220.0287eec0@pop.wizard.net>

David Summers quoted me and wrote:
>At 4:20 AM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>>There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example. Paying 
>>passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them through the 
>>passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger areas of the 
>>ship.  Each keycard is unique to each passenger, and so the same card 
>>gets them into their own private cabin.  Crew will have similar cards, 
>>that give them more freedom, and exactly how much and which greater 
>>freedoms would depend on the crew member's billet.
>
>I really don't see the crew needing card to move about the ship. That is 
>going to get old in a hurry, could be a problem in an emergency, and is 
>unecessary.
I agree with your thesis expressed earlier that crew needs to be able to 
move about the ship on their duties unimpeded.  What I had in mind was 
keeping the passenger-only areas fenced off.  Crew will have to pass 
through access-control points entering and exiting passenger areas, but 
it's a pretty low-level annoyance.  Just wave their Crew ID Badge in the 
general direction of the hatch.  It's probably clipped to their sleeve or 
collar.

>In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go where 
>they shouldn't.  You wouldn't actually lock things unless they were 
>particularly sensitive or valuable or someone had leasure to get into 
>somplace they shouldn't (like an isolated closet).  This is similar to 
>what ships use today.

I _tried_ to go where I wasn't allowed when I was aboard a cruise ship 
about fifteen years ago.  All the doors/hatches were locked.  Crew had keys 
for the doors they normally needed access to.  This was before electronic 
keys or crypto keys were common; I mean the crew had traditional keys.  A 
lot of doors were locked from the passenger side but not from the crew 
side.  Crew usually had to either knock to gain access from the passenger 
side, or go around the long way to somewhere they could enter.  Unsecured 
doors usually had a _lot_ of crew in the immediate vicinity.  If someone 
steals an ocean liner they can do a lot of damage, but if someone steals a 
starship they can potentially do far more than that.  I'd think starships 
have more safeguards than ocean liners.  IMTU.  YMMV.  :->

I like to envision ship security levels that make a player character think 
and work and plan really hard to succeed at gaining control of a ship's 
bridge and engineering.  But still keep it possible.  It should be rare and 
one of the proudest illegal achievements a player can brag of.  Most RPGers 
I've known are far too casual and impulsive to have a ghost of a chance at 
success.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:55:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:55:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20402.180059.2g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204011745.g31Hji001663@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215009.0283aec0@pop.wizard.net>

Leonard Erickson, in replying to JimV said:

>BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
>higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
>artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
>playing "grav pong" with hijackers.
Sounds like we see it the same way.  Although +6 gees to -6 gees in less 
than one second should be sufficient grav pong to deal with most hijackers.

I've always wondered at the canonical lack of ships capable of 
accelerations far greater than 6 gees.  We subject astronauts and fighter 
pilots to accelerations between 4 and 6 gees, so you'd think that high 
performance military aircraft would be capable of accelerating many gees 
faster than their internal grav compensation can handle.  They accelerate 
at 10 gees, have 6 gees of that compensated, and a "felt acceleration" of 4 
gees.

>Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
>things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects.

Yeah, it's way too messy a pandora's box for me to consider it seriously.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:59:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:59:49 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net> <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20020403125949.A14872@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go
> where they shouldn't.

On one sea trip on a passenger ferry I went exploring the passenger
accessible areas, and ended up on the wrong side of a very impressive
looking "Authorized Personnel Only" sign hanging on a heavy chain for
emphasis.  The strange thing is, I never actually passed any such
signs to get to the wrong side of the chained-off region :)

I could easily see the same thing happening on a large passenger liner
in Traveller.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:04:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:04:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204030216.DFQ00018@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215722.02839ec0@pop.wizard.net>

>I know that there are a lot of people who like the big spinal
>mounts, but I've reduced the maximum tonnage of ships to a
>fairly linear plot from 5000 tons at TL 9 to 20,000 tons at
>TL 15 (CT/HG).  I'm also assuming that the larger the ship,
>the more likely that the jump drive will be problematic.
>This explains the use of relatively small ships (200 and 400
>ton) despite the fact that with either HG or MT, much larger
>ships should completely Microsoft, I mean, replace all
>smaller vessels.
>
>Also, I believe (John The Heretic) that abusing your jump
>drives leads to damage that is never really undone.

I like spinal mounts.  The combat advantages in fleet actions are so great 
that I think battles tend to go to whoever has the most spinal 
mounts.  Back when they were doing TCS tournaments at cons, I think that 
tended to be the consensus as well.

I like your ideas about jump number being a nominal spec that has to be 
worked at to achieve in the field.  But we need rules, man, rules.  I'm not 
sure I agree with the Microsoft theory of big ships eating little ships, 
but IMHO the canonical Traveller universe stretches the old credibility 
suspenders awfully far to have such a plethora of small merchant ships 
running around all the time instead of shipping being dominated by 5,000t 
and bigger vessels.  I'd be more inclined to agree with large shipping 
_corporations_ eating little ones.  Which is possibly a better description 
of what Microsoft does, anyway.

I am interested in permanent damage to jump drives when they are 
abused.  But again I need rules, man!  Exactly what constitutes 
abuse?  Exactly how do you determine the consequences of abuse?  How much 
of that damage can be repaired, and what is required to repair it?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:12:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:12:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
In-Reply-To: <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b8d0233486e4@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:41 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
>"David P. Summers" wrote:
>>
>>  In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
>>  tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
>>  arrays.....
>
>Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
>masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....

But the tags would be unforgeable based on the penguins DNA!  Clearly 
this would be justified based on the threat that penguins pose.  (How 
could the Imperium  claim to control their territory if penguins roam 
free?)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:12:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:12:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Reply Etiquette Flame (was: Galileo)
In-Reply-To: <20020403013707.22C1527A00@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402190656.00a4a160@mailhost.efn.org>

Todd Glenn wrote, in response to a post where I forgot to change the 
default subject (something I am normally very good about):

>It's even in the digest:
>
>"When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."

Nice of you to quote my entire message just to bitch about the subject 
line.  Especially when I'm one of those who does take care to trim his 
quotes, post below quoted material, not use Outlook or post MIME to the 
list, etc etc...

In closing, sir, you are invited to <biological function> yourself.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:21:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:21:11 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <3CAA7526.B59B63BA@mail.cswnet.com>

Timothy Little writes:
>Wow, the LBBs really do hit your wallet *hard*!  I suggest using some
>other design system if you want lower costs.  *Any* other design
>system.

Yeah, but what other design system lets you have...
[drum roll with trumpets]

		THE INFAMOUS ONE MAN SCOUT SHIP!

Besides, a real Traveller scoffs at mere Mcr's. Its the Tcr's
that we pay attention to...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:26:02 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <3CAA764A.60353DD6@mail.cswnet.com>

General Turokan writes:
>Open the pod bay doors Hal.

>I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now.

>Hal, open the pod bay doors.

>I'm sorry Dave.

>HAL! 

>Yes Dave.

>Hal, I've got to go to the bathroom!

>I'm sorry Dave

One [1] keyboard kill.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:25:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:25:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <200204030325.DFT00415@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says 

"I need rules, man"

OK.  Let's do this on the assumption that there is a maximum 
size of ship that can be sent through jump space at each TL.

Start at 1000 tons at TL 9 and work your way up to TL 15 (CT).

That's the first rule.  You go next.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:43:03 +1000
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
References: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001401c1dac2$798ed940$86b18b90@computer>

> From: John Groth 
> I don't know of kian stats in any game system.

<vague memory surfacing>

Try original (print) JTAS.

I can't check at the moment, alas.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:48:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:48:07 +1000
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
Message-ID: <001501c1dac2$7cd48e60$86b18b90@computer>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>      The more robots deal with humans or operate within a general human
> setting, the more likely they'll be the upright, bipedal, anthromorphic
> robots of classic sci-fi.  A two-legged, vaguely human shaped, robot with
> arms and hands will be preferred as a steward or medic by most folks over
a
> metal box on treads with tentacles.  Robots with "hands" will also be able
> to use the same utensils and tools the rest of the crew uses.
>      Robots in industrial settings will be far less anthromorphic, in
those
> settings function will drive form.

There will be one category of robot that will be pseudo-biological - the
good old "companion" bot - servant, secretary, and sex-toy.

They don't have to be especially bright, or particularly able to pass for
human in social settings, so they aren't necessarily _hugely_ expensive.
They still will be toys for the wealthy, though.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:32:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:32:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <20020403001628.32715.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402222929.02df3008@192.168.0.1>

At 10:16 AM 4/3/2002 +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
>Speaking of villians with english accents reminds me
>of a scene from Buffy:the vampire slayer. The english
>librarian nearly gets killed by a demon and somebody
>says:
>"I bet your whole life flashed before your eyes, cup
>of tea, cup of tea, nearly got shagged, cup of tea"
>ObTrav: Sneaky intelligence agents have french
>accents, even if they are Zhodani ;) Speaking of which
>what would a Zhodani accent be comparable too?

Well...given the 'canon' cold war setup, the Zho would have Russian Accents.
That would make their Vargr allies Cubans (picture a Vargr in fatigues with 
a cigar and an AK-47 and a thick Spanish accent).
Hmmm...Sword Worlders would be the various Eastern European Warsaw Pact 
countries.
Your basic heavy handed eastern European accent.



----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:40:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:40:48 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403134048.A15012@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> I think the original idea behind such expensive ships was to avoid
> having a Jetsons future where everyone can drive the family car to
> another planet for a weekend jaunt.

Actually, they didn't really succeed :)

Even in non-GURPS versions of Traveller, there are much cheaper
spacecraft than starships, some of them capable of reaching Mars from
Earth in a day or so.  Granted, even there they are far more expensive
than an average Hyundai, but nowhere near the cost of a jump-capable
craft.


>  They wanted to have put high, but not impossibly high, barriers to
> frequent travel between star systems.  Otherwise there's no reason
> to believe that each the civilizations on each planet will remain
> distinctly different from each other after 1,100 years of being in
> the same Imperium and rubbing elbows all the time.

I think there is.  The time barriers suffice, if nothing else.  With
typically available jump drives, it takes *years* to get across the
Imperium.  Even if those drives were dirt cheap.

Furthermore, each planet has *drastically* different environmental
conditions and resources; much more different than say France is from
Antartica.  The economic drivers will be radically different in
various systems, and won't merge just because vehicles are cheap.

Even if travel between stars was absolutely free of charge, it still
takes at least a week or two to get to the nearest neighbouring
system.  That alone presents a social barrier to homogenisation even
within a subsector, let alone a sector or the Imperium as a whole.

This includes military homogenisation: A fleet of battleships at Core,
no matter how powerful, is no good against a tiny pack of Vargr ships
in the Spinward Marches.  So some areas have recent incursions by
foreigners, and large military forces for their population.  Other
areas have not seen a warship in action for generations, and receive
tenth-hand news 6 months old from the nearest conflict.  If they care.


Which brings up the next point: species differences.  Even among the
variants of humaniti, there are significant differences.  Then there
are the non-human sentient races, with their own thought processes,
customs, physical requirements and preferred cultures.  To say nothing
of the enormous variety of non-sentient natural wildlife present only
on a particular planet.

And you have political differences, which I don't think are likely to
disappear.  People will almost certainly retain differences in belief.
If interstellar travel is cheap that just makes it easier for members
of different cultures to move somewhere else rather than try to
integrate.


I'm sorry, I just don't see how making starships cheap erases all
these things that factor into making a local culture significantly
different from others.  More than that, I don't see how inflating the
cost of inter*planetary* spacecraft adds anything at all to the
variety within the Imperium, let alone differences outside it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:49:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:49:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402213220.0287eec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
 <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402213220.0287eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <p04330106b8d02b8f7e5e@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:42 PM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>David Summers quoted me and wrote:
>>At 4:20 AM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>>>There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example. 
>>>Paying passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them 
>>>through the passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger 
>>>areas of the ship.  Each keycard is unique to each passenger, and 
>>>so the same card gets them into their own private cabin.  Crew 
>>>will have similar cards, that give them more freedom, and exactly 
>>>how much and which greater freedoms would depend on the crew 
>>>member's billet.
>>
>>I really don't see the crew needing card to move about the ship. 
>>That is going to get old in a hurry, could be a problem in an 
>>emergency, and is unecessary.
>I agree with your thesis expressed earlier that crew needs to be 
>able to move about the ship on their duties unimpeded.  What I had 
>in mind was keeping the passenger-only areas fenced off.  Crew will 
>have to pass through access-control points entering and exiting 
>passenger areas, but it's a pretty low-level annoyance.  Just wave 
>their Crew ID Badge in the general direction of the hatch.  It's 
>probably clipped to their sleeve or collar.

Well, some smaller ships have passenger areas in the middle of the 
ship and you have to pass through it to get from one end to the other.

If this isn't true, I think you might see some sort of basic restriction...

>
>>In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go 
>>where they shouldn't.  You wouldn't actually lock things unless 
>>they were particularly sensitive or valuable or someone had leasure 
>>to get into somplace they shouldn't (like an isolated closet). 
>>This is similar to what ships use today.
>
>I _tried_ to go where I wasn't allowed when I was aboard a cruise 
>ship about fifteen years ago.  All the doors/hatches were locked. 
>Crew had keys for the doors they normally needed access to.  This 
>was before electronic keys or crypto keys were common; I mean the 
>crew had traditional keys

OTOH, I was on a ship for a gambling cruise and the bridge, which was 
off the upper deck where the passengers went to sight see, wasn't 
locked (the reason you didn't go in there was the feeling that the 
people in there would object :-)

>I like to envision ship security levels that make a player character 
>think and work and plan really hard to succeed at gaining control of 
>a ship's bridge and engineering.

I think the crew will be their main obstacle.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:37:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:37:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402223515.02da9ec0@192.168.0.1>

At 06:39 PM 6/2/2002 -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> > or look up flux compressors
> > The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures
> > I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius
> > kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.
> > Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find
> > anything.  OK, I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite
> > terrorist building these? --
>That's a very good question.  I've read speculation that they may
>have been used in some places, but I'd think the evidence would be
>pretty obvious (lots of fried computers).  At that point, I'm guessing
>that most terrorists want to see blood far more than lost data.
>OTOH, I wonder if more some of the more hard-line
>environmentalist groups like Green Peace and Earth First know
>about these things, maybe I'll send them a link :)

They already have their own official terrorist wings, ELF & ALF (Earth 
Liberation Front & Animal Liberation Front) leading the FBI lists.

You probably don't want to have the FBI draw a line between you and them.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:54:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:54:45 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402225324.01f21ff0@mail.charter.net>

Loren had mentioned a Traveller specific version of the GURPS character 
generation software was being considered.

Is this project a go?  If so, when would it see the light of day?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
           http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:03:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:03:33 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com> <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <k9vkau413ehik68ii1a6tna2hhcq425icf@4ax.com>

On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:38:10 +1000, "Alan Bradley"
<abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:

>> From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
>> Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's
>> kind of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not =
doing
>> any more jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the
>> character becomes motivated to take this one, last job.
>
>In fact it's such a "classic bit" that I am considering playing it as a =
solo
>game.
>
>Unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable mission!  : (
>
>I've got a couple of ideas about how to run it, though.  They might be =
of
>interest to the other solo players on the list.
>
><SNIP>
>
>Success would come from mobilising your own possible assets, finding out=
 who
>else is in the game, thwarting their plans, and working towards your own
>devastating exercise in turning the tables on the jerks blackmailing =
you.
>
>The plot itself would be a McGuffin hunt, shaped by "just in time" =
random
>generation, plus incidents of "a man with a gun enters the room".  It =
could
>be hopelessly convoluted and pointless, or it could be The Maltese =
Falcon.
>Or The Millenium Falcon.
>
>Now all I need is the time and energy to develop these ideas...

I find myself in the role of Mr. Movie.  For a pretty nasty story
along these lines, take a look at the movie "Commando".  Our hero is
blackmailed into taking on an assassination for the villians, but
escapes before the plane takes off for the destination.  He then has a
fixed amount of time to chase down villain minions, learn where the
major villain is hiding and rescue the hostage.  Not too much
opportunity for character development, but a good action story.  From
a gaming standpoint, the tracking and interrogation of the henchmen
and most of the fighting could be the solo adventure.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:28:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:28:33 -0600
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net> <p04330105b8d0233486e4@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3CAA76E1.BA4A2BC6@premier.net>


"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
> At 7:41 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
> >"David P. Summers" wrote:
> >>
> >>  In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
> >>  tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
> >>  arrays.....
> >
> >Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
> >masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....
> 
> But the tags would be unforgeable based on the penguins DNA!  Clearly
> this would be justified based on the threat that penguins pose.  (How
> could the Imperium  claim to control their territory if penguins roam
> free?)

Then the penguins merely graft a patch of non-penguin-waterfowl skin and
feathers to the tag attachment point (ideally waterfowl generally
engaged as tramp freighters or system defense birds), change the tag
code to suit the new DNA and proceed on their marauding ways.... ;-)

The struggle between measure and countermeasure is a never-ending one,
as neither side is likely to gain lasting superiority.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:26:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:26:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020402.202649.-8353.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:26:02 -0600 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
> General Turokan writes:
> >Open the pod bay doors Hal.
>  >I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now.
>  >Hal, open the pod bay doors.
>  >I'm sorry Dave.
>  >HAL! 
>  >Yes Dave.
>  >Hal, I've got to go to the bathroom!
>  >I'm sorry Dave
> 
> One [1] keyboard kill.
> 
> Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

Thanks Dan, my first keyboard kill scored.

Woooooooohooooooo!!

I guess I'm out of the Rookie status now.

Gee, how many more till I can earn Flight Officer?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:13:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:13:41 -0800
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <20020402194040.7979a578.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
 <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402201259.009ec960@mindspring.com>

At 07:40 PM 4/2/02 +0200, you wrote:
>Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
>food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
>predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
>for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world under
>the ice.

Jedi Jellyfish Under The Ice!  I love it!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets.
                                 - Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:44:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:44:29 +1000
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS That's just nasty...
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C178F5@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

From Paul:
I saw a special on the toob some time ago about these
two women who started a business cleaning up after the
police were done at murder scenes.  They contracted
either to the insurance co or mortgage co.  They would
go in and make a nasty place livable again.

Not my idea of fun employment.

From Me:
In Oz we have this funeral service that mostly employs female ex nurses
dressed in white. I forget their name (something like the white sisters -
but less Aryan than that). They figured that with emotions running high in
the immediate hours after a death that the ladies, who have skills in
calming people down, and who have come to collect the bodies, was a good
thing. I remember seeing an interview where the ladies would turn up and
relatives would be on the front lawn screaming over who was getting
'grandma's antique bed spread', and the ladies would have to calm things
down.  

I would think being on Highway patrol/Ambulance would be messed up. I
remember stats about suicides/depression amongst crews that regularly attend
road accidents being statistically aberrant (something like double their
less highway inclined colleagues). I think the some Police Services in Oz
roster members on attending road deaths for like only a month a year because
of this. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:45:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204030325.DFT00415@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402225752.027fbae0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon, that fiendish b*st*rd, wrote:
>laning says
>
>"I need rules, man"
>
>OK.  Let's do this on the assumption that there is a maximum
>size of ship that can be sent through jump space at each TL.
>
>Start at 1000 tons at TL 9 and work your way up to TL 15 (CT).
>
>That's the first rule.  You go next.


LOL!   :->

Umm, okay.

Canonically, the largest possible starship is 1,000,000 under CT LBB 5, and 
TL does not limit hull size itself.  Theoretical jump drive capacity goes 
to jump-2 at TL 11, then increases by one jump number for each TL increase 
after that.  TLs beyond TL 15 are still capped at jump-6 capacity.

You gave the largest standard-sized hull according to LBB 2 as the maximum 
size that be sent through jump space at TL 9.  For fun, let's give the 
largest hull that can be built in LBB 2 as the TL 10 limit.  That's 5,000 tons.

If it isn't rude, I'll skip ahead (may be more pleasantly viewed with 
fixed-width font):
TL 9     1,000 tons
TL 10    5,000 tons
TL 11   10,000 tons
TL 12   50,000 tons
TL 13  100,000 tons
TL 14  500,000 tons
TL 15  One million tons

This may confer additional large battle advantages in TCS to the side with 
a TL advantage.  Probably only small advantages at TL 12+.  Just so long as 
you can include a powerful spinal mount weapon, that should keep you in the 
running even if your opponent has a somewhat better spinal mount 
weapon.  Try to outnumber your enemy if you can't outclass him.

The larger ships will also have an armor advantage.  Reasonable people 
disagree over how significant armor is in TCS situations.

Only higher tech levels will be capable of using large planetoid hulls.

Let's see, the Imperial-average TL is 12.  If we assume that a significant 
number of Imperial naval vessels will be built and maintained at TL 12 
facilities, then the largest hull that they will be able to use for a 
starship is 50,000 tons.  50,000 tons times 13.5 meters^3 per ton means a 
volume of 675,000 cubic meters.  Which would mean a borg-like cube about 87 
meters per dimension.  Or a thousand meters long, by 27 meters high by 25 
meters wide.

A planetoid hull can use only 60,000 tons and the rest is "wasted" on 
structural integrity.  A buffered planetoid hull "wastes" 35%, so it would 
only be able to use 39,000 tons of its volume for ship components, cargo, 
and fuel.

Caveat:  I was going by first edition of LBB 5 - High Guard.  Second 
edition might have different numbers for hulls and jump capacities, but I 
doubt it.

Also, it bothers me that I'm adding another rule/table to keep track of 
during ship design.

Now for the thorny part.  What does one have to do to a ship to get it's 
full jump capability out of it?  Roll dice?  Spend more per ton of jump 
drive?  Install fancy computers?  Other?  And the details of implementing 
that.  Can the jump capability decline over time even though it has not 
been battle damaged and is being properly maintained?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:43:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:43:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS That's just nasty...
Message-ID: <200204030443.DFV01354@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hughes, Michael" says
>Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS That's just nasty...  
>To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
>
>I would think being on Highway patrol/Ambulance would be 
>messed up. I remember stats about suicides/depression 
>amongst crews that regularly attend road accidents being 
>statistically aberrant (something like double their
>less highway inclined colleagues). I think the some Police 
>Services in Oz roster members on attending road deaths for 
>like only a month a year because of this. 
>
"The Night Rider.  Remember him when you look up into the 
night sky..."
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:10:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:10:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <200204030510.DFV03007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning <laning@wizard.net>  
<snip size limits>

I think that limiting people to smaller ships really gives us 
the "small ship" Traveller.  So...

>
>Now for the thorny part.  What does one have to do to a ship 
>to get it's full jump capability out of it? 

For the first ten jumps (shakedown), roll 10+ to achieve the 
design jump rating, DM Average Engineering Skill Level of 
crew, maximum DM 4.  You must use refined fuel for these 
calibration jumps.  Failure results in a jump reduced by 1 
parsec per point failed.  This means that shipyards have to 
have rescue/refuelling ships ready to save shakedown failures.

Average the performance over the shakedown, and round up.  
This is the true Jump rating.  Note that in some cases, the 
military will not accept delivery of a ship that takes enough 
fuel for Jump-4 to only do a Jump-3.

Straight rule -- ships displacing 5000 tons or less roll for 
shakedown on a 6+, not 10+. 

Remedy:  Replace the jump drives.  See how expensive this is 
getting?

>Can the jump capability decline over time even though it has 
>not been battle damaged and is being properly maintained?
>

On the misjump roll, in addition to CT DMs
-1 DM for every 10 years of drive age.
-1 DM for every hit on the Jump drives if repaired
-2 DM for every hit on the Jump drives not repaired (running 
with battle damage)
-1 DM for every prior slight or minor misjump, even if 
repaired.
-4 DM for every prior major misjump (after repairs)
-1 DM if drive is not performing to design.

Misjump itself is not just "randomly trip to nowhere".

I see slight, minor, major, and catastrophic misjumps.

Fail misjump roll by 
1 = slight, ship misses destination by 1D6 x 0.1 parsec
2 = minor, same as jumping short during shakedown
3 = major, same as standard misjump
5 = catastrophic, you never come out of hyperspace

Note that some captains might feel it worth the risk.  Some 
old traders are probably the equivalent of the African Queen.

Replacing jump drives involves recalibration, which means the 
shakedown happens again.

I think that there should be a minimum separation distance 
when using jump drives.  Think of that B5 episode where they 
open a hyperspace portal from a White Star when they already 
were in an open gate.  Two ships too close to each other are 
already shredding space/hyperspace, and that has to have an 
effect.  Might make a good suicide maneuver for a smaller 
destroyer who is trying to kill a battlerider fleeing the 
field.

Additional Misjump DMs
- Jump Rating of Nearby Ship Using Jump Drive (100 km)
- Missile Factor if Nuclear Missiles hit during jump 
initiation

Unlike the so-called "jump flash", I really really like the 
way that going into/out of hyperspace looked in B5.  
Aesthetically pleasing.  Plus, everyone gets some warning 
that a jump point is forming.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 00:14:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <20020403134048.A15012@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402235745.00acdde0@pop.wizard.net>

>I'm sorry, I just don't see how making starships cheap erases all
>these things that factor into making a local culture significantly
>different from others.  More than that, I don't see how inflating the
>cost of inter*planetary* spacecraft adds anything at all to the
>variety within the Imperium, let alone differences outside it.

I don't thing making starships cheap _erases_ all the good and excellent 
factors that you cited from the equation.  But making them expensive does 
_enhance_ the isolation of cultures on different worlds.  I think it is a 
significant difference, and (maybe) arguably enough of a difference that 
prudent game designers wanted to take advantage of it.  I note that Loren 
has been with this game since before the beginning, and also is line editor 
for GT, and you say that jump drive prices in GT appear to be the same as 
in CT.  There may be a reason for that.

As you've already seen, I'm not that afraid of changing things.  I want to 
lower starship costs by a couple of orders of magnitude, mostly because I 
rely on those other good and excellent factors you cited.

I differ over whether interplanetary spacecraft have inflated costs in all 
versions of Traveller except for GT.  Perhaps it seems so to someone coming 
to Traveller first through GURPS Traveller, but bear in mind that GT is the 
fifth major version of Traveller and all four previous versions began with 
and maintained the same approximate price schedules for ship building.

Perhaps GT is deflationary, rather than all other Traveller 
inflationary?  :->  It's a point-of-view thing.  Only with the benefit of 
hindsight and being GT-centric do we come to the view of previous Traveller 
versions as being inflationary.  I have no problem with GT being so 
different on this, it's all a matter of taste.  Not even TNE managed to be 
really hard science, and all other versions even less so.  We're all 
arguing over angels on the head of a pin, really.  How much does it cost to 
build a power plant or a thruster plate?  Whatever I say it does, 
IMTU.  Whatever you say it does, IYTU.  :->

AFAIK, it will never be possible to build thruster plates, so who can say 
their cost.  AFAIK, nobody can say how cheap, safe, easy to operate fusion 
power plants can be made to provide incredibly abundant energy or how they 
would be designed and constructed, so who can say their cost.  Probably, 
there is no way to ever do it.  Put 'em in gumball machines if it makes YTU 
happy, is what I say.  Which should generate at least one good SF short story.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:18:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:18:19 -0800
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
In-Reply-To: <E16s3jE-0001h7-00@pluto2.runbox.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402211746.00ac7870@mail.verizon.net>

Me too!  ;-)

Charles McKnight
res0i3sf@verizon.net



At 03:28 PM 4/1/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Any chance of seeing these?
>
>Beth
>
> > I'd be interested to see this...
> >
> > In days past I used to write such manuals for a live-role-playing game
> > based on 25th century space marines. These included a medical manual, EOD
> > procedures and even the Uniform Code of Military Justice (a guaranteed
> > cure for insommnia!).
> >
> > Hugs and kisses,
> >
> > Mexal,
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:20:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:20:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
In-Reply-To: <200203310432.DAH01551@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402211958.00ab2190@mail.verizon.net>

Hi John,

I'd appreciate an opportunity to look it over.

Thanks!

Charles McKnight
res0i3sf@verizon.net

At 11:32 PM 3/30/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Just finished going through what will be a rather long
>document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units
>in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may
>differ.
>
>But..  I need more input.  I've just moved a current day
>document a fair number of years into the future (out to TL10,
>so far), and I would like to take it a bit further, say TL12.
>
>I am interested in anyone's input concerning what might be
>standard operating procedure (instructions to individual
>soldiers, teams, and platoons).  Some of the detail I have is
>down to the items to carry.
>
>I am especially interested in what might be SOP in regards to
>weapons, employment of specific weapons (such as, "always use
>the plasma gun to break contact").
>
>I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing
>to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages
>so far.
>________________
>Do you think my being stronger and
>faster has anything to do with my
>muscles in this place?...Do you think
>that's air that you are breathing?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:29:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:29:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20402.180059.2g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 02, 2002 06:00:59 PM
Message-ID: <200204030529.g335TAO02739@localhost.uia.net>

Leonard writes:
> Inertial *compensation* exists in Traveller. Inertial
> *suppression/neutralization* is a different matter.

So if you're crusing at 6G, and your inertial conpensators
crap out all of a sudden, watch out :-)

Probably there's some sort of automated cut-off for that
sort of situation, but it's odd that we don't see the floor/wall
field generators or their power usage in any of the design specs.
Then again, we don't see the light bulbs either, so perhaps they're
cheap and energy efficient.

> True inertia neutralization (or suppression) changes F=ma to F=kma
> where k is a constant (or variable) determined by the degree of
> neutralization. 
> 
> In effect, you are changing the inertial mass of the objects in
> question. If this was what was happening in Traveller, then you
> couldn't throw a ball across a compartment. As soon as you quit
> pushing, the air resistance would stop it. 

But the air molecules would also have a lower inertia, so they'd
be easier to sweep aside. In short, since both the air and the ball
are both effected equally by inertial suppression, they'd both behave
normally.

Imagine two balls on a pool table. Now imagine them made out of
styrofoam. Impart one with a given velocity, so it strikes it's
neighbor, and it should react just like a normal pool ball
(particularly if we take away the pool table and put them in
a vacuum... this isn't a cheat, all I'm saying is that the
kinetic energy transfer should result in the exact same outcome
regardless of the degree of inertial neutralization).

But, as you say in a later post, the energy of forces might seem
stronger under inertial suppression. Well, is that really the
case? A change in gravity should produce no difference, as
masses fall at the same speed, all other things being equal.
If I drop a feather in a vacuum, and a drop a rock in a
vacuum, they should both fall at the same speed. So I don't
think that changing inertia should effect how an object behaves
with respect to the gravitational force. What about the weak,
strong, and EM forces?

> Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
> things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects. 

In what way?

> There's also the question as to whether or not gravitational mass and
> inertial mass are the same thing. Last I heard, experiments had shown
> that they were the same to with 1 part in something like 10^12, but
> it's still an *assumption* that they are the same thing.

It may be that both inertia and gravity are linked to the zero
point field and/or space-time curvature. I don't know enough
physics to lend any ideas on the topic, but I can forward you
some articles on it pulled from New Scientist if you'd be
interested in a quick read.

> But assuming that you can live thru the process, then it'd be best to
> ignore all the effects at the sub-molar level (ie molecular and lower).

Can't do this.
 
> This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
> work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
> viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.

Except that your heart would also be of a lower apparent mass.
Instead of thinking of a normal pool ball hitting a styrofoam ball,
think of one styrofoam ball hitting another one. On the molecular
scale, I'm guessing that this would be more akin to what would be
happening. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:40:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:40:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> from "John T. Kwon" at Apr 02, 2002 05:22:44 PM
Message-ID: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>

> One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the 
> price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial 
> cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very 
> much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be 
> possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for 
> mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the 
> fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator 
> runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to 
> ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of 
> the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.

That and a lack of dirt. Actually, with cheap energy (ala fusion),
transportation costs would probably plummet as well. I remember
reading a book of short stories back in high school, and in one
of them, the author posited that nuclear fusion created an era
of plenty where people struggled to be good consumers (comsuming
as much of everything as they could so as to keep the econony
humming along... consuming became an occupation in itself). I
thought the conclusion was rather silly, but the question raised
(what would the world be like with cheap energy?) was certainly
interesting, and it's something which I haven't really seen
explored beyond the most superficial level. What would the
world be like if supply so outstripped demand that the vast
majority of people would no longer have to work. In a way, we're
living it (not meaning to start a flamewar over social policy, but
it's my intuition that welfare recipients today probably live
better than their hard working ancestors of centuries past), but
imagine the trend were extended such that everyone could live
in idle luxury, and only a small percentage of the population
need be employeed. What would that be like? I can't even scratch
the surface of potential ramifications. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:49:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:49:54 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <E16sWO7-0004I7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 02:04:52PM -0800
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16sWO7-0004I7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020402224954.B10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 02:04:52PM -0800, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> > (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> > 
> > 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
> 
> In Jeopardy mode:
> 
> Heretics for 100: Who is Galileo

I should note that the Catholic Church's issues with Galileo were not
his science but rather his theology.  The man took the heliocentric
idea (developed, IIRC, by a Catholic priest) and drew incorrect
theological conclusions therefrom.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Wouldn't you love to fill out _that_ report?  `Company asset #423423 was
lost while fighting the forces of evil.'                   --Chris Adams

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:53:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:53:56 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #372 - 42 msgs
In-Reply-To: <B8CF87E8.342AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 04:08:08PM -0800
References: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402155400.00a4c780@mailhost.efn.org> <B8CF87E8.342AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020402225356.C10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> "When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."

Still more proof that digest mode is a work of the devil...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The power of Satan is as nothing before the might of the Lord, so don't
go getting any ideas.                             --I Abyssinians 20:20

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:03:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:03:11 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:30:25PM -0500
References: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se> <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020402230311.D10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:30:25PM -0500, laning wrote:
>
> I am on both sides of the fence (I'm like Jeremy the Nowhere Man in
> 'Yellow Submarine' or the Scarecrow in 'The Wizard of Oz').  I
> sympathize with Harlan Ellison and others.  I also feel strongly
> that sharing knowledge has less value to the human race if the
> knowledge is only shared with those who can pay for it.  The
> Internet is a great democratizer of knowledge sharing.  (It's more a
> socialist thing than a democracy thing, but it's not generally
> acceptable in the States to express it that way.)

The ideal solution, of course, is for those of a moral bent to produce
their own, superior, IP and publish it openly.  Much like New Riders
do with their books (all, AFAIK, available under an open license) and
the GNU project do with theirs.  As unto the software hoarders, so
unto all IP hoarders.

Incidentally, the Open Content License <http://www.opencontent.org/>
makes provisions for author approval of significantly modified
versions (e.g. some of the nastier forms of fanfic), and for
interested parties to retrieve original versions of the work.

And yes, I release my Traveller code <http://travtrack.sf.net/> under
the GPL.  Thereby putting my money where my mouth is.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ubi non accusator, ibi non judex.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:11:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:11:14 +0100
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
References: <200204030529.g335TAO02739@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <007301c1dad6$5c23ef80$52200050@matt>

Just a though, but wouldn't the inertial compensation in Traveller consist
of using grav plates to create a grav pull of 1G les than the accelleration
on a reciprocal vector?

Assuming decks at right angles to thrust, if you accelerate at 6G create a
5G field in the ceiling... voil, effectively 1G felt by occupants... (other
orientations will require G-Plates to generate G at other angles, but heck,
they are made of Handwavium anyway...)

Or am I getting this completely wrong?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:21:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:21:10 -0700
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402223515.02da9ec0@192.168.0.1>; from eclipse@urbin.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 10:37:18PM -0500
References: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402223515.02da9ec0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020402232110.F10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 10:37:18PM -0500, Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> They already have their own official terrorist wings, ELF & ALF (Earth 
> Liberation Front & Animal Liberation Front) leading the FBI lists.

Who have, incidentally, killed people.  They are not heroes of any
sort or kind, and deserve to be hunted to the ends of the earth.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I have sustained a continual bombardment & cannonade for 24 hours & have
not lost a man.  The enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion,
otherwise the garrison are to be put to the sword if the fort is taken.
I have answered the demand with a cannon shot, and our flag still waves
proudly from the walls.  I shall never surrender nor retreat.
                                         --William B. Travis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:25:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:25:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Information, please:  Kians
Message-ID: <200204030622.g336MGh15548@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
...
>     Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
>kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
>pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
>Cavalry.
>     Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?

  JTAS #9, per the "JTAS Index" from Jim V., posted 1 Mar 2002?

  Grenadier did a mini for `em, too :>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:24:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:24:43 -0700
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>; from jimv@uia.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:40:53PM -0800
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020402232443.G10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:40:53PM -0800, jimv wrote:
>
> In a way, we're living it (not meaning to start a flamewar over
> social policy, but it's my intuition that welfare recipients today
> probably live better than their hard working ancestors of centuries
> past)

Hell, the great majority of the poor in the USA are better off than
the great majority of mankind ever.  Obesity is a greater problem than
starvation.  Most own colour TVs; many own cars.  The poverty of the
American is the wealth of just about anyone at just about any other
time in history.

Not that there are not those who suffer in real poverty, of course.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home and leave us in
peace.  We seek not your counsel, nor your arms.  Crouch down and lick
the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our
country men.                                        --Samuel Adams

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:44:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:44:34 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402225752.027fbae0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <014b01c1dadb$03f89400$52200050@matt>

> Canonically, the largest possible starship is 1,000,000 under CT LBB 5,
and

No, its 1,000,000dton+...

The tonnage listed for a size category is the lower bound, the upper bound
being one dton less than the lower bound of the next size category. For the
1,000,000 dTon category there is no next category, so no upper bound.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:58:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:58:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aliens Among Us
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEGACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

This week in JTAS online is an excellent article that I would like to
recommend to everyone:

Aliens Among Us, by James Maliszewski
Another installment of Travellers' Tales

If you don't subscribe to JTAS online, you should.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:46:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:46:56 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices [long]
References: <200204030510.DFV03007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAAB370.B2E1DE88@premier.net>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> laning <laning@wizard.net>
> <snip size limits>
> 
> I think that limiting people to smaller ships really gives us
> the "small ship" Traveller.  So...
> 
> >
> >Now for the thorny part.  What does one have to do to a ship
> >to get it's full jump capability out of it?
> 
> For the first ten jumps (shakedown), roll 10+ to achieve the
> design jump rating, DM Average Engineering Skill Level of
> crew, maximum DM 4.  You must use refined fuel for these
> calibration jumps.  Failure results in a jump reduced by 1
> parsec per point failed.  This means that shipyards have to
> have rescue/refuelling ships ready to save shakedown failures.
> 
> Average the performance over the shakedown, and round up.
> This is the true Jump rating.  Note that in some cases, the
> military will not accept delivery of a ship that takes enough
> fuel for Jump-4 to only do a Jump-3.

Based on this specification, and assuming an average Engineering skill
of 2 (rather generous, given the large engineer contingents on
cruiser-sized vessels), an AHL-class Fleet Intruder would almost
certainly fail to achieve the designed 5-parsec range.  With an average
Engineering skill of 2, an AHL would require a roll of 8+ per jump, for
10 jumps.  There is a 15/36 (41.67%) chance per jump of meeting spec;
this means that for each calibration jump, there is a 21/36 (58.33%)
chance of failing by at least one point.  The average failure will be by
2 points, and your formula gives no bonus for exceeding the required
roll.  Assuming average results, we can expect there to be four
successful rolls (J-5 for each) and six failed rolls (with an expected
average of J-3).  20 + 18 / 10 gives an expected average performance of
J-3.8 (rounded up to J-4); this is 80% of the design performance of an
AHL-class Fleet Intruder.  Note that ships designed for J-4 will
generally only meet J-3 (75% of spec).

To use a modern analogy: the design speed for a WW II-era
_Cleveland_-class CL (the most numerous cruiser class ever built) was 33
knots.  Given your formula, it would be surprising to find a _Cleveland_
that could do over 26.4 knots (80% of 33 knots).  Further, even if the
first ship, or even the first three ships, of the class made design
speed, each additional example of the class would still be likely to be
limited to 26.4 knots.  The above assumes that a _Cleveland_-class CL is
equivalent to a J-5 ship.  If we assume that a _Cleveland_ is equivalent
to a J-4 vessel, we can conclude that the majority of such ships could
only make 24.75 knots (as opposed to a design speed of 33 knots). 
Clearly, this degree of variation from spec is unacceptable for a
production run of ships.

I would suggest that these rules apply to prototype ships (including the
requirement to replace jump drives [presumably of a slightly different
design]).  Once the bugs have been worked out of a design (i.e., at
least one ship of the class has performed to-spec, and the operational
reports have been forwarded to the designing shipyard), ships of a given
class should receive a positive modifier (I'd suggest +4; with an
average Engineering skill of 2, this gives a failure chance of 1/12 per
jump, with 2/3 of failures being only -1) to each roll; ships built by
yards other than the designing yard would receive an additional -1 until
they had built 1D ships that met jump specifications.  A natural roll of
2 is an automatic failure, regardless of modifiers.  IMPORTANT: **Any
ships begun during development stage of a given class would be treated
as prototypes.**  Given this last stipulation, few designs would go into
series production until the prototype was debugged.  This would serve to
limit the proliferation of new designs during times of crisis.

My suggestions would mean that it would take some effort to work the
bugs out of a prototype.  Few ships would be built of a given class
until the bugs had been worked out, and the designing shipyard would
receive the bulk of orders.

I would also suggest that the building yard must bear 1/2 of the cost to
bring an in-production ship up to spec; the ordering authority would
bear the entire cost to develop a prototype.  Naturally, a new design
proposed by a shipyard (as opposed to a new design requested by a buyer)
would require the designing shipyard to bear the entire cost of
prototype development. Note that, by requiring the ordering authority to
bear at least some of the cost, the ordering authority is encouraged to
use highly-trained crews for development and shakedowns.  This reflects
the "test pilot" mentality of those involved in developing a new class
of ship....
> 
> Straight rule -- ships displacing 5000 tons or less roll for
> shakedown on a 6+, not 10+.

I would use this as the rule for prototype ships of this size;
production models would gain the additional +4 (-1 if built by a yard
other than the designing yard).  This would allow smaller ships to be
developed more quickly and produced more rapidly once developed. 
Obviously, designing new classes of large ships would be much more
costly than designing new classes of smaller vessels.

Amortized ships (i.e., those assigned a "type" designation in CT LBB2 or
Supp7 [Type A/A1 Free Trader, Type A2 Far Trader, Type C Mercenary
Cruiser, Type CE Close Escort, Type J Seeker, Type M Subsidized Liner,
Type R Subsidized Merchant, Type S Scout/Courier, Type T Patrol Cruiser,
Type X Xboat, Type XT Xboat Tender and Type Y Yacht]) would not require
shakedown rolls at all.  Equivalent standard ships published in non-CT
rulesets are considered as amortized.  A design not assigned a "type"
designation would be considered amortized once at least 1000 ships of
that class had been successfully (i.e., to-spec) built in that TU.
> 
> Remedy:  Replace the jump drives.  See how expensive this is
> getting?

Under my approach, this would be common for prototype ships (thus adding
to the development costs), as the best jump drive configuration was
worked out by experience. I would also suggest that jump drive
replacement during development would cost 150% of the normal jump drive
replacement cost (after all, you have to pull the old drive out and
possibly modify the ship to mount the new drive).  Production ships
would rarely need to have drives replaced, as the prototypes would have
already determined the optimal drive configuration for that class;
failures to make spec would thus be considered as resulting from
defective or (in the case of ships built by yards other than the
designing yard) inappropriate jump drives.  Cost in the latter case
would be 125% of normal drive replacement cost.
> 
> >Can the jump capability decline over time even though it has
> >not been battle damaged and is being properly maintained?
> >
> 
> On the misjump roll, in addition to CT DMs
> -1 DM for every 10 years of drive age.
> -1 DM for every hit on the Jump drives if repaired
> -2 DM for every hit on the Jump drives not repaired (running
> with battle damage)
> -1 DM for every prior slight or minor misjump, even if
> repaired.
> -4 DM for every prior major misjump (after repairs)
> -1 DM if drive is not performing to design.

I would allow +1 per ship overhaul (10x cost of annual maintenance, and
requiring 1D/2 months); this bonus can only cancel penalties listed
above.  Replacing the jump drive would cancel all penalties listed above
(but, as noted below, would require recalibration).  Government-owned
vessels would probably undergo overhaul at least every five years
(upgrades would be installed at this time, as applicable).
> 
> Misjump itself is not just "randomly trip to nowhere".
> 
> I see slight, minor, major, and catastrophic misjumps.
> 
> Fail misjump roll by
> 1 = slight, ship misses destination by 1D6 x 0.1 parsec
> 2 = minor, same as jumping short during shakedown
> 3 = major, same as standard misjump
> 5 = catastrophic, you never come out of hyperspace

While I like the idea of this table, I don't altogether care for the
results.  I would suggest that slight and minor misjumps include a
temporal option along with their spatial option.  In other words, the
referee could assign time distortions in lieu of (or along with) the
spatial errors listed above.  After all, missing by .6 parsec can be
even worse than missing by a full parsec; a full-parsec miss could put
the ship in proximity to a different system, while a .6 parsec misjump
guarantees that the ship will be about 2 light-years from any system
(given a 1-parsec hex map).
> 
> Note that some captains might feel it worth the risk.  Some
> old traders are probably the equivalent of the African Queen.
> 
> Replacing jump drives involves recalibration, which means the
> shakedown happens again.

Again, for production-series ships, I would allow the modifiers
suggested above.
> 
<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:15:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:15:49 +1000
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020403181549.A15722@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> imagine the trend were extended such that everyone could live in
> idle luxury, and only a small percentage of the population need be
> employeed. What would that be like?

I suspect that people's idea of "luxury" would then extend to things
that take work to achieve.  If on welfare you can afford a new car
every year, then those who are employed (possibly in a 20-hour working
week) might be able to afford a new *starship* each year.  Or at least
a new *luxury* transport instead of an average model that merely gets
you from A to B in the spartan style of the early 21st century
"luxury" limousines.


I'm more interested in the *next* step: what if nobody needs to work
at all?  That is, what if anything that humans can do, some form of
machines can do just as well without needing humans to tell them how?

Unlike a number of science fiction authors, I am *far* from convinced
that the result would be a utopian society where your every whim could
be satisfied.  Even in the extreme case where you've got a universal
machine capable of doing anything that a human can do, you still need
a *lot* of them to do anything that a society as a whole can do.  Even
in the case where you've got a universal factory, it still needs the
appropriate designs, materials, energy, and time.  At least one of the
first three would probably belong to someone else, and so you've still
got scarcity of some sort.  Chances are that time is also not
unlimited.

In fact, I can imagine that a society with such advanced technology
might simply discount the value of human labour to near-zero.  The
rate of return on invested capital might be quite good, but if you've
got nothing to begin with and can't earn much through work then you're
in a bit of a bind.  You might not starve, but you'll have to acquire
capital via other means if you want to join the set of wealthy people
who actually have stuff other people want.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:05:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:05:54 -0800
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
>
>I'm drawing a blank for "zh" speakers.  Places that are vaguely middle
>eastern or central asian come to mind for some reason, but nothing
specific.

Mandarin has a lot of "zh", but Zdetl is not a tonal language.  Some of the
Slavic languages (Polish comes to mind) have insane consonant strings like
Zdetl.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:05:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:05:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEGBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>
>I find myself in the role of Mr. Movie.  For a pretty nasty story
>along these lines, take a look at the movie "Commando".  Our hero is
>blackmailed into taking on an assassination for the villians, but

"You're a funny man, Smelly.  I like you.  Dat's vhy I kill you lest."
Colonel John Matrix was named Father of the Year by Soldier of Fortune
magazine that year.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:54:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:54:53 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEMAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Like I would guess many peoples did, 
MTU (tm) just grew, accreting layers 
and lumps as bright shiny things 
attracted my eyes.

Well I've decided to do a new one up right.
thinking about what final conditions I want 
then deciding what conditions are needed to 
create them.  

What I want

a distant and non intrusive Imperium, with a 
vaguely libertarian outlook.

a low powered environment, PC's are low level 
players on the galactic scene.

The campaign is on a frontier, a la Spinward
 Marches

book two sized and powered ships are normal
(without necessarily using LBB two starship 
design), economic and physical forces work 
against large ships.

Mil spec toys are rare

Prices and rewards are at a level where 
a party could in game earn enough money to 
make down payment on a used starship and 
then keep up payments.

the interstellar iconology is healthy enough 
that a backwater system is looking at 10 or 
so ships a week (recalling that most ships 
tend to be small)

Mega-corps exist, but are far more important 
along main trade routes and major systems.

Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop 
2 worlds


Conditions

The imperium is interested in external defense, 
surveying and mapping, stable currency, internal 
communications.

Imperial taxes are very low.

Imperial currency is very stable, currency drafts are
excepted Imperium wide.  Local currency is
much less flexible and much less used.  

As an exception to the libertarianism of the Imperium, 
building large (spinal mount sized ) weapons is very 
restricted.  Likewise, brute force invasions of 
neighboring worlds is discouraged.

Most systems military is Coast Guard, National Guard 
level stuff.  They are oriented to stopping raiders 
and internal affairs.  

The Scout service is canon and very important, both 
as a survey operation and a communications office

While they can feed them selves, few systems are fully 
self supporting in other areas, lacks and shortfalls 
are usually obtainable within a susbsector, with smaller 
ships this tends to pump up ship traffic.

Development is concentrated in most cases to the main planet 
in system, the rest is unpatrolled and poorly explored.

Way / refueling stations exist in marginal systems where there 
are no colonies.  These system are very poorly explored, and 
lacking nice places for humans to live.

The average campaign world is TL 12 and are lower end 
population, 5 - 8 (Population is the population living 
in system, on both sides of the of the XT line and 
including permanently stationed troops.  Any fancy 
arrangement is described in the system listing)

High tech and high population world are hubs supporting 
surrounding lower tech and pop worlds.  Trade is usually 
surrounding -- Hub, and Hub -- Hub

Absent local conditions against it, most worlds have 
about a type C space port.  Spaceports have the maintenance 
ability one level higher then their build ability. 

Ships last a long time, absent combat damage and with 
proper maintenance, a 200 year old freighter is still 
functional.

Technology is stable, the rough edges have been 
worn off most standard designs centuries ago.

The Imperium makes public domain standardized plans for 
many thing available.  While local peculiarities exist, 
a surprisingly large number of items are standardized 
imperium wide. (unless of course it is for a plot point)

Pirates exists, not as ECMs but as semi organized groups 
in the fringes of the system.  A lot of time and effort 
of the local navies is spent chasing them down.
________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:34:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:34:26 +0200
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403123426.04d59074.jenry023@student.liu.se>

laning wrote:
> By the way, Jens, have you read Hal Clement's 'Mission of Gravity'?  A 
> great example of intelligent alien life forms evolving on a world
extremely 
> different from Terra.  A just plain extreme world, in fact.  Clement
opens 
> the hood and lets us peer into a lot of the alien building he does.  The

> book's a classic, in fact.

Nope, I haven't. And I doubt that the library has that book in stock. I've
placed it on the list of books to look for now, though.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:49:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:49:22 +1000
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Robots from Dragon/Book 8
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17904@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Hey TMLers,

I recently crunched a remake of the Dragon Article on Robots using elements
from Book 8. I have even done up about 10 or so bots, in the theme of
popular Sci Fi bots (not C3P0 though...) from da movies. Prices are cheaper
generally than Book 8, and there is much hand waving for all you gearheads
out there (so sue me). Skill resolution has been modified to fit my
mechanics but I would think is easier enough to engineer for whatever game
system you use to run Traveller. 

If anyone is interested email me off list

Mikey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:31:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:31:27 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices [long]
Message-ID: <200204031231.DGL00640@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

John Groth says
<snip good rules for prototypes> 

Sounds like a good way to keep the lid on ship size, and 
perhaps even on the total number of ships.

I am also wondering:  there are more than a few nations that 
could probably "afford" to build an aircraft carrier, but 
many of them don't, or are retiring those that they have.  I 
think that the costs of maintenance for larger ships is more 
significant than for a smaller ship.  

Any ideas on how to make the larger ship more expensive to 
maintain?  The USS Kennedy is a recent case in point.  It can 
still cruise around, but it doesn't take much to make it 
not "mission capable".
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:34:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:34:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] pbem starting
Message-ID: <200204031234.DGL00812@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Now taking players for a pbem set in the Corridor area.
CT rules, with some modifications.
If you are interested, please e-mail jtkwon@jtkgroup.com.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:12:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 08:12:11 -0500
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403080940.027e7b68@192.168.0.1>

At 09:40 PM 4/2/2002 -0800, jimv wrote:
> > One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the
> > price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial
> > cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very
> > much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be
> > possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for
> > mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the
> > fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator
> > runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to
> > ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of
> > the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.

Actually one of the cool things about T4 was a short bit about
how one lived at the poverty line in a TL C society.

Even though they lived very well compared to the poor in a TL 9 (or less) 
society,
you still had Haves and Haves Nots, so there was "Class" friction that could
be exploited.

>That and a lack of dirt. Actually, with cheap energy (ala fusion),
>transportation costs would probably plummet as well. I remember
>reading a book of short stories back in high school, and in one
>of them, the author posited that nuclear fusion created an era
>of plenty where people struggled to be good consumers (comsuming
>as much of everything as they could so as to keep the econony
>humming along... consuming became an occupation in itself). I
>thought the conclusion was rather silly, but the question raised
>(what would the world be like with cheap energy?) was certainly
>interesting, and it's something which I haven't really seen
>explored beyond the most superficial level. What would the
>world be like if supply so outstripped demand that the vast
>majority of people would no longer have to work. In a way, we're
>living it (not meaning to start a flamewar over social policy, but
>it's my intuition that welfare recipients today probably live
>better than their hard working ancestors of centuries past), but
>imagine the trend were extended such that everyone could live
>in idle luxury, and only a small percentage of the population
>need be employeed. What would that be like? I can't even scratch
>the surface of potential ramifications. -Jim
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem
among the poor than starvation. That's something that
would have been science fiction to anybody who grew up
before, say, 1900, or even 1950
-------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:32:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:32:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>
References: <20020402191127.6b66c4f3.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020402201432.444efd17.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Classic Traveller wrote:
> When it is completed I will publish it in PDF. That way it will
definitely
> see print "see print", if it is worth the paper to print it on ;)

No problem. I'll print it at the university for free  ;-)

How much material are you aiming at? What kind?

I imagine TAS could be used as an alternative to the intrigues among the
noble families. After all, the idle rich are always a good source for
strife. Just look at the old-school soap operas (Dallas, Falcon Crest,
etc) out there...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
Message-ID: <E16smpE-0002tC-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

If you listen very carefully at the end of the recording, with the right fi=
ltering you can just hear:
<RECORDING ON>
> PC's on a derelict free trader:
> PC1: "Hmmm, blood everywhere but no bodies"
> PC2: "The only thing on the manifest is penguins, yet
> the cargo bay is empty"
> PC3: "Who would slaughter an entire ships crew for
> penguins?"
> PC2: "They also took the small craft"
> PC1: "Whats that noise?"
> PC3: "What noise?"
> PC1: "Sounded like flapping of some kind"
> PC2: "Lets get back to the ship"
> PC1: "Okay lets go. <speaking into com> Hey Samantha,
> light up the drives where out of here"
> <No response>
> PC1: "Samantha?, do you read?"
> PC2: "Hey wheres Jimmy?"
> PC1: <Spinning around to search for Jimmy> "Jimmy,
> jimmy?"

(soft singing, low voice) Scooby duby do...

> <END RECORDING>
>=20
> James
>=20

Beth


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:42:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:42:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEMAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403103415.00a8a750@pop.wizard.net>

John-Martin describes his new world order Traveller universe.  Which sounds 
awfully like CT when there were still only a few books published.

You may want to go with CT, and a few house rules.  Maintenance capability 
of starports being one higher than construction capability, for 
instance.  Which sounds like a pretty good rule.  Take CT material 
published from Trillion Credit Squadron onwards with a grain of salt, or 
even ignore it.  TCS economics tend to make the Imperium and other stellar 
empires be too omnipresent and powerful for the universe you 
described.  You may be happiest with the Azhanti High Lightning as one of 
the most important warships of its time, or even the Kinunir.  Take Book 5 
- High Guard out of the ship construction rules entirely.  That would limit 
the largest ships to 5,000 tons.  Or use Book 5 only for 
referee-constructed ships.  Although you did say you don't want to use LBB 
2, either.  Sounds like you will need either extensive mods of existing 
rules or to write your own from scratch.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEMAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <20020403155041.62193.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  Please see below for comments......
  >>
--- John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Like I would guess many peoples did, 
> MTU (tm) just grew, accreting layers 
> and lumps as bright shiny things 
> attracted my eyes.
> 
> Well I've decided to do a new one up right.
> thinking about what final conditions I want 
> then deciding what conditions are needed to 
> create them.  
> 
> What I want
> 
> a distant and non intrusive Imperium, with a 
> vaguely libertarian outlook.
> 
  >>
  I'm there.....
  >>
>
> a low powered environment, PC's are low level 
> players on the galactic scene.
> 
> The campaign is on a frontier, a la Spinward
>  Marches
>
  >>
  Kewl-ness......
  >>
> 
> book two sized and powered ships are normal
> (without necessarily using LBB two starship 
> design), economic and physical forces work 
> against large ships.
>
  >>
  Very cool....
  >>
> 
> Mil spec toys are rare
>
  >>
  Hmmm, verging on uh-oh....
  >>
> 
> Prices and rewards are at a level where 
> a party could in game earn enough money to 
> make down payment on a used starship and 
> then keep up payments.
>
  >>
  Given that the starship economy of Book 2
essentially encourages charactors to skip on their
creditors, I'm SO there....
  >>
>
> the interstellar iconology is healthy enough 
> that a backwater system is looking at 10 or 
> so ships a week (recalling that most ships 
> tend to be small)
>
  >>
  See the 'coda' below under 'Conditions'....
  >>
> 
> Mega-corps exist, but are far more important 
> along main trade routes and major systems.
>
  >>
  OK...but you're hamstringing a good plot device...
  >>
> 
> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop 
> 2 worlds
>
  >>
  .....YES!!!FINALLY!!!..... 
  >>
>
> 
> Conditions
> 
> The imperium is interested in external defense, 
> surveying and mapping, stable currency, internal 
> communications.
> 
> Imperial taxes are very low.
> 
> Imperial currency is very stable, currency drafts
> are
> excepted Imperium wide.  Local currency is
> much less flexible and much less used.  
> 
> As an exception to the libertarianism of the
> Imperium, 
> building large (spinal mount sized ) weapons is very
> restricted.  Likewise, brute force invasions of 
> neighboring worlds is discouraged.
> 
  >>
  The above points are already extant in the 3I,
IIRC......
  >>
>
> Most systems military is Coast Guard, National Guard
> level stuff.  They are oriented to stopping raiders 
> and internal affairs.  
>
  >>
  That's how I've always viewed planetary forces...
  >>
> 
> The Scout service is canon and very important, both 
> as a survey operation and a communications office
>
  >>
  No worries here....
  >>
> 
> While they can feed them selves, few systems are
> fully  self supporting in other areas, lacks and 
> shortfalls are usually obtainable within a 
> susbsector, with smaller ships this tends to pump up
> ship traffic.
> 
> Development is concentrated in most cases to the
> main planet 
> in system, the rest is unpatrolled and poorly
> explored.
> 
  >>
  CODA: Why? At the level of shipping you're talking
about, the only way to ship useful quantities of
product is by BIG carriers(e.g., LASH-type
freighters). 

  It's a lot more economical for a system government
to either encourage or subsidize[sp?] outer system
developement, either by gov't contractors or
(preferably) by 'native' belter-type operator's.
  >>
>
> Way / refueling stations exist in marginal systems
> where there 
> are no colonies.  These system are very poorly
> explored, and 
> lacking nice places for humans to live.
>
  >>
  Who pays for this? The only way to make it
economical enough to be of commercial utility (vs
skimming) is to lower the cost of the fuel provided by
the station's. If they (the ship-driver's) are charged
'market rates', the cost of this fuel will drive up
shipping costs to the point where merchants and
consumers at the recieving end won't be willing to
pay.

  See 'CODA'....
  >>
>
> The average campaign world is TL 12 and are lower
> end 
> population, 5 - 8 (Population is the population
> living 
> in system, on both sides of the of the XT line and 
> including permanently stationed troops.  Any fancy 
> arrangement is described in the system listing)
>
  >>
  Why so low?
  >>
> 
> High tech and high population world are hubs
> supporting 
> surrounding lower tech and pop worlds.  Trade is
> usually 
> surrounding -- Hub, and Hub -- Hub
> 
  >>
  That's how it usually runs.....
  >>
>
> Absent local conditions against it, most worlds have
> about a type C space port.  Spaceports have the
> maintenance 
> ability one level higher then their build ability. 
>
  >>
  This has always been my biggest saw about starports
in Trav: Why are there so many 'D' and 'E' class
ports? With a comparitivley small amount of time and
money, upgrading to at least 'C-' is a pretty small
chore......
  >>
>
> Ships last a long time, absent combat damage and
> with 
> proper maintenance, a 200 year old freighter is
> still 
> functional.
>
  >>
  That's how I always saw these ships....
  >>
> 
> Technology is stable, the rough edges have been 
> worn off most standard designs centuries ago.
> 
> The Imperium makes public domain standardized plans
> for 
> many thing available.  While local peculiarities
> exist, 
> a surprisingly large number of items are
> standardized 
> imperium wide. (unless of course it is for a plot
> point)
> 
  >>
  I'm OK with the stability part. Isn't there
something in GT about a standardised set of plans?
  >>
>
> Pirates exists, not as ECMs but as semi organized
> groups 
> in the fringes of the system.  A lot of time and
> effort 
> of the local navies is spent chasing them down.
> 
  >>
  Of course.
  >>
> 
> jml
> 
  >>
  MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
Message-ID: <200204031552.DGR04348@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Beth" says
>> PC3: "Who would slaughter an entire ships crew for
>> penguins?"

Penguins is practically chickens.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 08:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] inheritance Imperial style
Message-ID: <200204031616.DGS00004@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Was just looking at various types of inheritance in history, 
and two were contrasted.  Gavelkind, where all sons share in 
the inheritance equally, and primogeniture, where only the 
eldest gets the goods.

Apparently a driving force behind land acquisition, and when 
the land ran out, the seizure of land from others, was 
primogeniture.  It also provided knights for the Crusade.

"A noble class dependent for its power and position upon the 
possession of land - or, to be more accurate, it's right to 
collect taxes and services from the residents of the land - 
had emerged over the previous century, and the population of 
that hereditary class was growing. As long as the Frankish 
monarchs had continued conquering new lands, there were 
always new districts to distribute to the nobility. Now that 
expansion had ceased, however, the nobles began to suffer 
from "land-hunger" and began to evolve into something 
different from what the had originally been. They took 
complete control of the lands they had been appointed to 
govern in the offices of count, duke, and margrave and to 
treat them as personal possessions. They began to demand 
payment in land for helping one or the other side in the 
incessant civil wars. When the Carolingian monarchs no longer 
had royal lands to give in exchange for support, the fighting 
nobles took over the lands of the churches and the 
monasteries that the central government - such as it was - 
could no longer protect. Even so, they could not continue 
dividing their lands into smaller and smaller pieces. During 
the course of the ninth and early tenth centuries, in a 
process that can be discerned only dimly, the aristocracy of 
western Europe abandoned the deeply-rooted custom of 
gavelkind and replaced it with primogeniture ("first-born"), 
a system in which the core of a family's lands was kept 
intact and passed automatically to the eldest son. In this 
fashion, the empire was shattered into hundreds of 
practically independent districts, each owned and ruled by a 
local strong man in command of a small body of fighting men 
and a castle.

Such a state cannot maintain a navy, so the remnants of the 
Carolingian empire were easy pickings for sea-borne raiders 
from Scandinavia (the Vikings) and from North Africa (the 
Saracens), as well as mounted raiders from central Asia (the 
Magyars, or Hungarians)."

Given the nature of our maps in Traveller, could an 
empire "run out of land"?  Could the current empire be 
described as "hundreds of independent districts, each owned 
and rules by a local strong man (or government) in command of 
a small body of fighting men and a castle (a small army, 
navy, and starbases)"?

I don't think I need the Virus to have the empire fall into 
another Long Night. Piracy at that point might be any ship 
with a weapon.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Wed Apr  3 08:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller PBeMs
In-Reply-To: <B8CF3437.341C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CABA198.12635.5425D9@localhost>

I just started in one, but I'm not the GM.  The GM is Charlotte 
Manton <Charlotte.Manton@btopenworld.com>, and she said 
she's definitely willing to accept new players.  I don't think the 
game has a web page yet, though, so ask her if you have 
questions.

-- Rachel Kronick
.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Wed Apr  3 08:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <F306Upm0RnzXotJAadV00014e0d@hotmail.com>

David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>On rule of thumb in security is that the hard you make it for
>unwarranted intrusion, the harder you make it for authorized people

A corralary to this: the harder you make it for authorized
people, the more likely it is that the authorized people will
disable the security.  If all your passwords are twenty-character
random alphanumeric strings, expect to see sticky notes with the
passwords written on them stuck everywhere the passwords will
be used.  If that retinal scanner makes the crew sit through
three or four rescans before it lets them in, or mistakes them
for a terrorist a couple times a week, expect the retinal scanner
to be bypassed before the ship comes out of its first jump.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:06:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:06:11 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CAB365A.5070001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>or look up flux compressors 
>>
>>The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures 
>>I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius 
>>kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.
>>
>>Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find
>>anything.  OK, I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite
>>terrorist building these? --
> 
> 
> That's a very good question.  I've read speculation that they may 
> have been used in some places, but I'd think the evidence would be 
> pretty obvious (lots of fried computers).  At that point, I'm guessing 
> that most terrorists want to see blood far more than lost data.

There is speculation that they have been used, but in the commission of 
crimes. (good way to whack alarm systems.)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:07:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:07:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <ba.23b5ccdc.29dc9067@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 20:00:27 GMT Daylight Time, thing@moonwise.com 
writes:


> > Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs
> > starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're
> > borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.
> >
> > The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not
> to
> > let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can
> probably
> > see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information
> than
> > you wish to give out.
> 
> Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
> intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low 
> power
> biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.  If the
> security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
> vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
> other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.

Actually I was thinking of MRI or sound based scanning systems. Plus the 
ability of a device to scan through a visor in a variety of EM spectrums and 
actually see what its looking at.

Its not necessarily eay to fool the system if it "knows" the vacc suit or 
expects the operator to use a code to validate the data. I'm not saying that 
biometric data alone will be used - I agree that that would be overly simple 
and easy to defeat. I would expect at least a dual system of biometrics and 
code or key (or both). 

> 
> > If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems
> for
> > opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a 
> glitch
> > then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to
> a
> > specialist lock-smith.
> 
> If there is a mechanical system for opening the door than it comes down to
> cutting the power to the doors locking mechanism so that you can operate 
> the
> manual.  This usually wouldn't be too difficult.
> 
> G.D.D.
> 
It's not too difficult to conceive of a lockout that knows the difference 
between a power failure and a someone cutting the supply to the locks 
mechanism. It may be as simple as having a number of different sensors 
located around the door. A person wishing to cut the power *only* to the 
doors mechanism must therefore be able to, effectively, remove the door from 
its setting. If they can do that then a lock isn't going to stop them getting 
in :).

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 20:00:27 GMT Daylight Time, thing@moonwise.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs<BR>
&gt; starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're<BR>
&gt; borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not<BR>
to<BR>
&gt; let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can<BR>
probably<BR>
&gt; see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information<BR>
than<BR>
&gt; you wish to give out.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low<BR>
intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power<BR>
biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.&nbsp; If the<BR>
security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like<BR>
vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most<BR>
other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Actually I was thinking of MRI or sound based scanning systems. Plus the ability of a device to scan through a visor in a variety of EM spectrums and actually see what its looking at.<BR>
<BR>
Its not necessarily eay to fool the system if it "knows" the vacc suit or expects the operator to use a code to validate the data. I'm not saying that biometric data alone will be used - I agree that that would be overly simple and easy to defeat. I would expect at least a dual system of biometrics and code or key (or both). </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
&gt; If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems<BR>
for<BR>
&gt; opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch<BR>
&gt; then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to<BR>
a<BR>
&gt; specialist lock-smith.<BR>
<BR>
If there is a mechanical system for opening the door than it comes down to<BR>
cutting the power to the doors locking mechanism so that you can operate the<BR>
manual.&nbsp; This usually wouldn't be too difficult.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
It's not too difficult to conceive of a lockout that knows the difference between a power failure and a someone cutting the supply to the locks mechanism. It may be as simple as having a number of different sensors located around the door. A person wishing to cut the power *only* to the doors mechanism must therefore be able to, effectively, remove the door from its setting. If they can do that then a lock isn't going to stop them getting in :).<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_ba.23b5ccdc.29dc9067_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204030510.DFV03007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017853751.1367.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> laning <laning@wizard.net>  
> <snip size limits>
> 
> I think that limiting people to smaller ships really gives us 
> the "small ship" Traveller.

Unfortunately, it gives us the '50,000 small ships' traveller, which is in fact
worse for roleplaying than the '500 big ships' traveller.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215009.0283aec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017853921.54.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> Leonard Erickson, in replying to JimV said:
> 
> >BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
> >higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
> >artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
> >playing "grav pong" with hijackers.
> Sounds like we see it the same way.  Although +6 gees to -6 gees in less 
> than one second should be sufficient grav pong to deal with most hijackers.

I prefer to see grav compensation as being a side effect of the drives, which
means grav pong is impossible (well, artificial gravity can still be used, but
one can easily claim that it takes a while to cycle).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se> <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CAB3843.2060604@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
>>reprinted in various places.
> 
> 
> I Google'd around, but all I could find was webpages mentioning it. It
> would seem that it is available in various paper reprints, but not on the
> web. Sad...


I have at least one of them at home. If it's easily accessible, I'll dig 
it out and see what's there.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (long) Re: inheritance Imperial style
In-Reply-To: <200204031616.DGS00004@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403112658.025000c0@pop.wizard.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
>Was just looking at various types of inheritance in history,
>and two were contrasted.  Gavelkind, where all sons share in
>the inheritance equally, and primogeniture, where only the
>eldest gets the goods.
>
>Apparently a driving force behind land acquisition, and when
>the land ran out, the seizure of land from others, was
>primogeniture.  It also provided knights for the Crusade.
IIRC, the Albigensian Crusade was the first Crusade.  It is probably most 
famous nowadays for providing us with the motto, "Kill them all, God will 
know his own."  People nowadays usually say 'sort them out' instead of 
'know his own', but it amounts to the same thing.

The reason for the famous quote was that the clergy accompanying the French 
knights were dismayed when they saw the French indiscriminately killing 
Albigensians who were quite possibly Christian.  Or even obviously 
Christian.  The French were largely motivated by wanting to take the land 
from their Albigensian neighbors, and the blessing from the Pope was merely 
the thinnest of rationalizations for their actions.  Once they were in the 
heat of action, they were even less concerned about needing a rationalization.

<<<snippage of a interesting passage too long to bear repeating>>>
>Given the nature of our maps in Traveller, could an
>empire "run out of land"?  Could the current empire be
>described as "hundreds of independent districts, each owned
>and rules by a local strong man (or government) in command of
>a small body of fighting men and a castle (a small army,
>navy, and starbases)"?
>
>I don't think I need the Virus to have the empire fall into
>another Long Night. Piracy at that point might be any ship
>with a weapon.

I agree that the threat of another Long Night exists without having to 
resort to a gross deus ex machina like the Virus.  (And I do mean 
gross.)  But most land within the Imperium belongs to the local 
government.  The Imperium only holds legal sway over the space between the 
stars and planets.  The Emperor can award fiefs, and they can be inherited, 
but I'm sure they very long ago ran out of land that could thus be owned 
and inherited.

What the Imperium possesses and the late medieval Europeans lacked are a 
sophisticated and robust economic system, and nonhereditary institutions 
(megacorps and the Navy) that share power with the nobility.  This things 
make all the difference.

The existence of much more complex and sophisticated economic mechanisms 
than tenth-century Europeans had means that land inheritance is not the 
main life blood of economics.  Extensive and fairly efficient markets exist 
for virtually everything, and capital is extremely liquid.  Land tends to 
be held by corporations, and if a corporation folds, there are bankruptcy 
regulations to oversee the distribution of assets, which go immediately 
back into the economy instead of being held closely held by one family.

The Emperors and Empresses make a point of retaining ultimate ownership of 
fiefs they award, and they can resume direct control of them at will.  A 
local noble who attempts to resist that will have to contend with a very 
powerful central Navy.  Not even in the case of the excellently written 
LandGrab of Vincennes can locals seriously hope to defy the Emperor, 
because of this powerful Navy.  Nobles jockey for power and influence over 
the Navy, and in times gone by there were even a series of Barracks 
Emperors who seized the iridium throne simply because they thought they 
could get away with it.  The Barracks Emperors each relied on fleets of the 
supposedly central Navy.

The emperors since have learned the lesson and maintain strong control of 
the Navy.  When the civil war following Strephon's assassination resulted 
in the Navy being fractured, that's only because the authors had gone to 
great pains to create the conditions for honest doubt among admirals over 
exactly who had the best legal claim.  Under normal conditions the Navy 
remains loyal to the throne.  The way I understand it, Dulinor's beef with 
Strephon was that he was encouraging sector dukes to become too powerful 
and that would lead to the danger of a breakup or civil war.  Ironically, 
Dulinor precipitated exactly what he said he was trying to 
prevent.  Although I suspect his ego clouded his judgment and his motives 
were less pure than he himself believed.

Power and ownership of assets are divided between the throne, corporations, 
and system governments.  Economic life is diverse, active, and fully 
developed.  The division of power and assets acts somewhat like the famous 
system of checks and balances between the three branches of government in 
the US.  The mature and sophisticated economic life prevents assets from 
becoming concentrated more and more into the hands of an hereditary few 
(unless you take your economics with a lump of Marxism :-) and thus 
becoming a scarcer and scarcer resource with this trend creating conflict 
over the scarcity.

In the absence of outside threat, the greatest danger that persists inside 
the Imperium is in its only major institution that is completely 
hereditary--selecting who sits on the throne.  A series of poor emperors, 
or even just one, could potentially wreak havoc on the other institutions 
that are the main props of the system.

I have demonstrated that the Imperium is held together and fluorishes 
because of its inherently stabilizing structure, and its good fortune to 
have sufficient population and technology and legal institutions that 
promote an economic structure capable of keeping the healthy flow of 
liquidity to all the centers of power within the Imperium.  Not bad, 
considering it's just rationalizing a _very_ fictional science fiction 
backstory that was mostly created as an excuse for roleplaying games that 
visit thousands of different worlds and thus thousands of different science 
fiction stories.  :->

Oh.  The nature of the maps in Traveller.  Megacorps should be falling all 
over themselves to expand into the areas beyond the frontier and either 
create their own puppet empires or bring them into the Imperial fold.  And 
they should be falling all over themselves and fighting each other for 
control and exploitation of resources in the bazillions of neglected 
"backwaters" within Imperial borders.  It should be something like the 
story of the American West from the advent of the railroad through the end 
of the century.  All the canonical indications are that unexploited planets 
tend to remain so for decades and centuries at a time.  That bothers me.  I 
think the original idea was to provide not just Victorians in space, but 
also a version of the wild and woolly frontier that the real Victorians had 
in the American West and to lesser degrees elsewhere around the 
globe.  That was to set the stage for referees to run their own campaigns 
that saw dramatic and interesting changes sweep across the map, with the 
players being part of all that.  As time progressed and more backstory of 
the Imperium was written things became more static.  Probably, the original 
strategic vision was somewhat lost in the tactics of customers clamoring 
for more information about the Imperium and places within the 
Imperium.  Pure speculation of course.  My record on pure speculation is 
less than reliable.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] inheritance Imperial style
References: <200204031616.DGS00004@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB3D63.2000904@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Such a state cannot maintain a navy, so the remnants of the 
> Carolingian empire were easy pickings for sea-borne raiders 
> from Scandinavia (the Vikings) and from North Africa (the 
> Saracens), as well as mounted raiders from central Asia (the 
> Magyars, or Hungarians)."
> 
> Given the nature of our maps in Traveller, could an 
> empire "run out of land"?  Could the current empire be 
> described as "hundreds of independent districts, each owned 
> and rules by a local strong man (or government) in command of 
> a small body of fighting men and a castle (a small army, 
> navy, and starbases)"?
> 
> I don't think I need the Virus to have the empire fall into 
> another Long Night. Piracy at that point might be any ship 
> with a weapon.

You just described the Aslan itahei.

Pirates at that point arent' pirates, but raiders, in the sense that 
they attack planets not other ships, which is an *entirely* different 
kettle of fish.

However, if you defind 'land' as 'someplace where you collect taxes from 
production thereon' The 3I will not run out of land anytime soon.

In addition to the vast number of underpoulated systems, belts, etc, 
'new' land can be constructed at any time, just about anywhere, via 
building space habs.

Building O'Neill-style colonies is cheap in Traveller.

Look at the costs of an asteroid hull, sometime...amazingly cheap.

Then, the scenario you described is amply laid out in 'Hard Times', and 
on one of the mother sources of Traveller, 'Space Vikings' by H. Beam 
Piper.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <3CAB365A.5070001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <B8D08114.346CC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/3/02 9:05 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

> 
> There is speculation that they have been used, but in the commission of
> crimes. (good way to whack alarm systems.)

Aside from theory, has anyone actually tested a device of this kind?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <B8D08114.346CC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB45FC.5060802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 4/3/02 9:05 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:
> 
> 
>>There is speculation that they have been used, but in the commission of
>>crimes. (good way to whack alarm systems.)
> 
> 
> Aside from theory, has anyone actually tested a device of this kind?
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.

I remember reading someone's account of making and setting one off. He 
described stopping clocks and other electrical and electronic devices at 
a range of approx 1/4 mile. IIRC it was rather directional.

I don't, however, remember the reference, whether it was on the web or 
the list.

However, since making a pipe bomb is an integral part of making one of 
these devices, I suspect people are rather circumspect regarding their , 
ahh, experimentation along these lines...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402205809.027d9ba0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CABBC5E.30314.BCBF6D@localhost>

Hi all!

I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists 
Table (UTT), where you roll and a result like "Antagonist turns out 
to be Protagonist's long-lost relative" or "20 drunken goons ambush 
the PC on the way home" or whatever come up.  we could make a 
big UTT with a thousand or so entries so repeats are rare...

-- Rachel


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <182.62a974a.29dca666@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 22:58:51 GMT Daylight Time, 
ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:


> TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.  
> One
> assumes the neutron problems have been solved.
> 

Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing "up" 
to He4 :)

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 22:58:51 GMT Daylight Time, ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.&nbsp; One<BR>
assumes the neutron problems have been solved.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing "up" to He4 :)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_182.62a974a.29dca666_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
References: <182.62a974a.29dca666@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB4D53.2FCA27E3@premier.net>

Charles writes:

> TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.  One
> assumes the neutron problems have been solved.

Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing
"up" to He4 :)

Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
opposed to deuterium or tritium)?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204031846.DGX03548@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Subject: Re: [TML] handy device  
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>
>Aside from theory, has anyone actually tested a device of 
this kind?
>--
There is supposed to be a test facility in New Mexico where 
several of these were fabricated and tested to see if it 
worked.  Not sure, but it might have been Kirtland AFB.

They are testing other types of electromagnetic weapons there.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:48:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:48:35 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <3CAB4D53.2FCA27E3@premier.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017859666.3145.ajackson@ping>

John Groth writes:
> Charles writes:
> 
> > TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to
> > He4.  One assumes the neutron problems have been solved.
> 
> Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing
> "up" to He4 :)
> 
> Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
> opposed to deuterium or tritium)?

No, P-P probably would be phosphorus.  I should have written p-p.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402222929.02df3008@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402222929.02df3008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3cac4775.11204799@post.demon.co.uk>

Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:

>Well...given the 'canon' cold war setup, the Zho would have Russian =
Accents.
[...]
>Your basic heavy handed eastern European accent.

Of course...  The classic "Zhodani Philosophies" article in JTAS 23
can only be read with a really thick fake Russian accent:

"...contrary to what your holographic film directors seem to think, we
smile (and even laugh) as often as Imperials...
"...We are not robots.  Creativity, divergence of opinion, freedom of
expression... we have all of these within the Consulate.  Our
government is not oppressive...[...]  In return, our citizens respect,
obey and freely criticize their rulers (as is their duty)."

Stephen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <53.14a0b708.29dcabc3@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 18:50:46 GMT Daylight Time, 
jenry023@student.liu.se writes:


> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
> function using radically different biochemistries?
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> 

Stanley Schmidts "Aliens and Alien Societies" is reasonably useful. It's 
available from Amazon and there's some intersting stuff floating around out 
on the web

http://library.thinkquest.org/C003763/index.php?page=index&tqskip1=1&
tqtime=0402

Is an example.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 18:50:46 GMT Daylight Time, jenry023@student.liu.se writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might<BR>
function using radically different biochemistries?<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Stanley Schmidts "Aliens and Alien Societies" is reasonably useful. It's available from Amazon and there's some intersting stuff floating around out on the web<BR>
<BR>
http://library.thinkquest.org/C003763/index.php?page=index&amp;tqskip1=1&amp;tqtime=0402<BR>
<BR>
Is an example.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_53.14a0b708.29dcabc3_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <20020403155041.62193.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEOAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

  MACessna wrote
  >>
  Please see below for comments......
  >>
--- John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Like I would guess many peoples did,
> MTU (tm) just grew, accreting layers
> and lumps as bright shiny things
> attracted my eyes.
>
> Well I've decided to do a new one up right.
> thinking about what final conditions I want
> then deciding what conditions are needed to
> create them.
>
> What I want
>
> a distant and non intrusive Imperium, with a
> vaguely libertarian outlook.
>
  >>
  I'm there.....
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

yeppers, I'm an old crack who likes the original CT setting

>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> a low powered environment, PC's are low level
> players on the galactic scene.
>
> The campaign is on a frontier, a la Spinward
>  Marches
>
  >>
  Kewl-ness......
  >>
>
> book two sized and powered ships are normal
> (without necessarily using LBB two starship
> design), economic and physical forces work
> against large ships.
>
  >>
  Very cool....
  >>
>
> Mil spec toys are rare
>
  >>
  Hmmm, verging on uh-oh....
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

People who strap on a PGMP-15 to go to the
'fresher annoy me,  IMTU they'll have to make
do with a shotgun.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Prices and rewards are at a level where
> a party could in game earn enough money to
> make down payment on a used starship and
> then keep up payments.
>
  >>
  Given that the starship economy of Book 2
essentially encourages charactors to skip on their
creditors, I'm SO there....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

traveller space ship, things you ride around
in until you run out of money (this applies to
riding or ownership).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  >>
>
> the interstellar iconology is healthy enough
> that a backwater system is looking at 10 or
> so ships a week (recalling that most ships
> tend to be small)
>
  >>
  See the 'coda' below under 'Conditions'....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
see below coda for my response

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  >>
>
> Mega-corps exist, but are far more important
> along main trade routes and major systems.
>
  >>
  OK...but you're hamstringing a good plot device...
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh they exist elsewhere, just they are less important

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
> 2 worlds
>
  >>
  .....YES!!!FINALLY!!!.....
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
have you ever seen my semi-regular Binges rant?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
> Conditions
>
> The imperium is interested in external defense,
> surveying and mapping, stable currency, internal
> communications.
>
> Imperial taxes are very low.
>
> Imperial currency is very stable, currency drafts
> are
> excepted Imperium wide.  Local currency is
> much less flexible and much less used.
>
> As an exception to the libertarianism of the
> Imperium,
> building large (spinal mount sized ) weapons is very
> restricted.  Likewise, brute force invasions of
> neighboring worlds is discouraged.
>
  >>
  The above points are already extant in the 3I,
IIRC......
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
yep and that I like ''cept mine is less present, systems
join and stay because of the currency union aspect alone
IFIAK.  That and the party favors given out on Fleet Day.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  >>
>
> Most systems military is Coast Guard, National Guard
> level stuff.  They are oriented to stopping raiders
> and internal affairs.
>
  >>
  That's how I've always viewed planetary forces...
  >>
>
> The Scout service is canon and very important, both
> as a survey operation and a communications office
>
  >>
  No worries here....
  >>
>
> While they can feed them selves, few systems are
> fully  self supporting in other areas, lacks and
> shortfalls are usually obtainable within a
> susbsector, with smaller ships this tends to pump up
> ship traffic.
>
> Development is concentrated in most cases to the
> main planet
> in system, the rest is unpatrolled and poorly
> explored.
>
  >>
  CODA: Why? At the level of shipping you're talking
about, the only way to ship useful quantities of
product is by BIG carriers(e.g., LASH-type
freighters).

  It's a lot more economical for a system government
to either encourage or subsidize[sp?] outer system
developement, either by gov't contractors or
(preferably) by 'native' belter-type operator's.
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In the long run they will develop. This is a frontier,
at this time sales are too small for many markets to
roll the own everything,  Imagine whole subsectors relying
on Yugotech ground cars, -- available in any color you
want as long as it's lime green.  aftermarket add-ons
are probably made locally.

This by the way is a reason for lots of smaller ships.  Dealers
of whatever take orders in small lots from the factory, smaller
tramps do just fine carrying the loads needed.  Think two or
thee car carrier semis scale to the dealership, not a bulk carrier
hauling all those car across the ocean.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Way / refueling stations exist in marginal systems
> where there
> are no colonies.  These system are very poorly
> explored, and
> lacking nice places for humans to live.
>
  >>
  Who pays for this? The only way to make it
economical enough to be of commercial utility (vs
skimming) is to lower the cost of the fuel provided by
the station's. If they (the ship-driver's) are charged
'market rates', the cost of this fuel will drive up
shipping costs to the point where merchants and
consumers at the recieving end won't be willing to
pay.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

They tend to be where classic trav might have a
lo pop lousy living condition planet,  They make
money because a ship saves however much time it
takes to go 100 d for a gas giant, wilderness
refuel, go back to 100 d's and process your fuel.

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  See 'CODA'...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

seperatish issue in my opinion, besides
they are a neat place for Ancient artifacts
to lurk.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
  >>
>
> The average campaign world is TL 12 and are lower
> end
> population, 5 - 8 (Population is the population
> living
> in system, on both sides of the of the XT line and
> including permanently stationed troops.  Any fancy
> arrangement is described in the system listing)
>
  >>
  Why so low?
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
somehow a population in the billion fails to jibe
with my vision of a frontier world, recall that
these are frontier worlds.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> High tech and high population world are hubs
> supporting
> surrounding lower tech and pop worlds.  Trade is
> usually
> surrounding -- Hub, and Hub -- Hub
>
  >>
  That's how it usually runs.....
  >>
>
> Absent local conditions against it, most worlds have
> about a type C space port.  Spaceports have the
> maintenance
> ability one level higher then their build ability.
>
  >>
  This has always been my biggest saw about starports
in Trav: Why are there so many 'D' and 'E' class
ports? With a comparitivley small amount of time and
money, upgrading to at least 'C-' is a pretty small
chore......
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

yep another SRR bait

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Ships last a long time, absent combat damage and
> with
> proper maintenance, a 200 year old freighter is
> still
> functional.
>
  >>
  That's how I always saw these ships....
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I see Jamison's ship as 300 plus years old, his corp. bought it used and
used it hard on speculative runs

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Technology is stable, the rough edges have been
> worn off most standard designs centuries ago.
>
> The Imperium makes public domain standardized plans
> for
> many thing available.  While local peculiarities
> exist,
> a surprisingly large number of items are
> standardized
> imperium wide. (unless of course it is for a plot
> point)
>
  >>
  I'm OK with the stability part. Isn't there
something in GT about a standardised set of plans?
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Spaceport mention something like this I believe.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Pirates exists, not as ECMs but as semi organized
> groups
> in the fringes of the system.  A lot of time and
> effort
> of the local navies is spent chasing them down.
>
  >>
  Of course.
  >>
>
> jml
>
  >>
  MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
Message-ID: <e4.25704b2c.29dcb669@aol.com>

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Stomped on dupe names, got rid of those underscore characters, and
bumped up the pop and tech scores for a dozen or so worlds. See what
this gives us.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

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Avalon                0106  B767845-A   Ri                     623 So
Banners               0110  B645878-7                          824 So
Threshold             0121  B66735A-9   Lo Ni                  202 So
Carson                0123  B465888-9   Ri                     323 So
Victory               0124  C7955A7-6   Ag Ni                  422 So
Aphrodite             0125  C8B0243-9   De Lo Ni               924 So
Ryerson               0126  E592333-5   Lo Ni                  401 So
Barrens               0127  B241566-B   Ni Po                  224 So
Jewelbox              0128  B857457-C   Ni                     711 So
Ormuz                 0131  E460357-6   De Lo Ni               112 So
923-211               0139  X6B2000-0   Ba Fl                  420 Na
Morgan                0201  A7759BB-D   Hi In                  310 So
Euler                 0202  C21046A-A   Ni                     722 So
Urania                0203  B574755-B   Ag                     901 So
Arrakis               0206  B460858-C   De Ri                  422 So
Hesiod                0207  C56778C-8   Ag Ri                  225 So
Ehlai                 0211  AAC259B-D   Fl Ni                  700 So
Gamma                 0212  B642614-7   Ni Po                  124 So
Chiron                0217  B310788-9   Na                     904 So
Pericles              0220  B457404-C   Ni                     422 So
Omar                  0222  B596578-B N Ag Ni                  223 So
Absalom               0223  A578843-C                          933 So
Jackson               0224  C45367A-8   Ni Po                  325 So
Tau-Tau               0225  B000649-D N As Na Ni               210 So
Manuel                0226  A445788-9   Ag                     323 So
Tudor                 0227  B627599-9   Ni                     324 So
Samarkand             0228  B461766-9   Ri                     214 So
Wunderland            0233  E868443-7   Ni                     833 Na
896-917               0234  E364000-0   Ba                     725 Na
899-491               0235  XAA6000-0   Ba Fl                  123 Na
Hawking               0236  B776553-9   Ag Ni                  723 Na
Tombs                 0301  C310730-A   Na                     202 So
Novy Mir              0302  A96A883-C N Ri Wa                  624 So
Galileo               0304  C100662-9   Na Ni Va               534 So
Samson                0310  B6687B6-7   Ag                     301 So
Ceres                 0312  A677878-A                          422 So
Kant                  0316  B445856-9                          624 So
Elnath                0317  B000766-D N As Na                  533 So
Sultana               0319  B544622-9   Ag Ni                  334 So
Haven                 0325  B658668-8   Ag Ni                  923 So
Spencer               0326  B260337-8   De Lo Ni               714 So
Enterprise            0327  A877663-8   Ag Ni                  722 So
Cascade               0328  B69A730-8   Wa                     434 So
Nelson                0331  A55A799-D   Wa                     923 So
Lammas                0332  B24478A-A   Ag                     922 So
Vixen                 0333  C474225-6   Lo Ni                  122 Na
Shuanyun              0334  CAC0514-C   De Ni                  615 Na
Accident              0340  D371356-6   Lo Ni                  824 Na
Saladin               0412  B353869-A   Po                     113 So
Hadrian               0415  C51465A-8   Ic Ni                  935 So
Nakamura              0418  C10049A-B   Ni Va                  602 So
New Pretoria          0424  B643866-9   Po                     524 So
Pele                  0426  A998534-8   Ag Ni                  410 So
Themis                0428  C9A5168-9   Fl Lo Ni               324 So
Storm                 0431  A897676-B   Ag Ni                  823 So
Gateway               0434  E357413-8   Ni                     510 Na
885-644               0436  E666000-0   Ba                     724 Na
Shah's World          0437  E616100-8   Ic Lo Ni               700 Na
Fortuna               0505  B896856-9                          725 So
Isis                  0508  B696653-A N Ag Ni                  511 So
Tellus                0511  A986976-B N Hi                     704 So
Ozymandias            0512  A7A387A-B   Fl                     703 So
Bismarck              0518  B679845-6                          524 So
Ekaterina             0519  A877789-9   Ag                     500 So
Terminus              0521  B410451-9   Ni                     203 So
Athens                0527  A684958-D   Hi                     824 So
Breslau               0531  A5646AC-8   Ag Ni                  501 So
Taurea                0532  A4569C9-D N Hi                     423 So
893-368               0537  XAB4000-0   Ba Fl                  900 Na
New Lyon              0606  B642998-B   Hi In Po               700 So
Prime                 0608  C8A5656-A   Fl Ni                  600 So
Sun Tzu               0611  A778569-A   Ag Ni                  913 So
Horizon               0615  A541221-A N Lo Ni Po               534 So
Felicity              0617  B5338AD-B   Na Po                  103 So
Plateau               0618  B9D789B-6   Fl                     624 So
Rhodes                0620  A000988-E   As Hi In Na            823 So
Fermat                0624  C5259A9-A   Hi In                  713 So
Provence              0625  A365534-D   Ag Ni                  934 So
Goliath               0631  BA959DC-6   Hi In                  723 So
905-404               0633  X6A0000-0   Ba De                  823 Na
Solitude              0635  B353200-C   Lo Ni Po               424 Na
Euxene                0703  A7979BD-A   Hi In                  823 So
Lyrane                0705  B000734-D N As Na                  503 So
Abaddon               0713  B6A459B-8   Fl Ni                  510 So
Churchill             0720  A655951-E   Hi                     422 So
Sydney                0721  A357789-C N Ag                     503 So
Outpost               0724  A10069C-E   Na Ni Va               804 So
Union                 0725  A424999-E N Hi In                  922 So
Pacifica              0728  A85A424-E   Ni Wa                  703 So
Hadley                0731  B574663-8   Ag Ni                  700 So
Pella                 0732  C300655-B   Na Ni Va               821 So
Harbinger             0735  B220646-C   De Na Ni Po            232 Na
Abydos                0736  D254545-7   Ag Ni                  213 Na
Shaitan               0739  E580131-2   De Lo Ni               700 Na
Farwold               0801  A445645-A   Ag Ni                  525 So
Maharani              0804  B64566A-7   Ag Ni                  535 So
Montrose              0809  A5548AA-8                          800 So
Anjou                 0818  B426985-D   Hi In                  402 So
Nueva Brasilia        0820  A884ACE-C   Hi                     200 So
Caledonia             0821  A797977-D   Hi In                  124 So
Dante                 0822  D8B9201-A   Fl Lo Ni               823 So
Tatiana               0826  B300587-B   Ni Va                  824 So
Daikoku               0829  A8589A7-C   Hi                     723 So
Izanagi               0830  A448973-B N Hi In                  804 So
Musashi               0833  B100558-C   Ni Va                  121 Na
Rhiannon              0835  B785655-A   Ag Ni Ri               522 Na
Babur                 0837  B55447A-B   Ni                     412 Na
Monterey              0907  A110987-E   Hi In Na               321 So
Twilight              0912  A8949A7-9   Hi In                  524 So
Albion                0921  B6569AA-9   Hi                     921 So
Europa                0923  A868AB8-E   Hi                     104 So
Hotei                 0927  A7B3435-D   Fl Ni                  802 So
Yawata                0929  C434879-9                          310 So
Tenjin                0930  A246431-E   Ni                     624 So
892-834               0934  X9B7000-0   Ba Fl                  320 Na
Carthage              0938  C110334-A   Lo Ni                  200 Na
889-056               0939  X411000-0   Ba Ic                  923 Na
Aldebaran             1002  A000752-E   As Na                  734 So
Rowan                 1004  A300589-A   Ni Va                  735 So
Home                  1009  A86699A-E N Hi                     320 So
Virgil                1014  A998855-9                          312 So
Gilead                1015  B433753-B   Na Po                  624 So
Nodens                1016  A210426-A   Ni                     823 So
Albion                1022  A547A7A-C N Hi In                  310 So
Covenant              1023  A696945-E   Hi In                  423 So
Pasquale              1024  A1007CD-C   Na Va                  524 So
Paradox               1036  B256734-9   Ag                     911 Na
923-438               1040  E559000-0   Ba                     910 Na
Marduk                1101  B3519BA-C N Hi Po                  804 So
Bogatyr               1104  A573875-D                          520 So
Pronea                1105  A211656-A   Ic Na Ni               912 So
Romulus               1110  A997500-B   Ag Ni                  523 So
Cahokia               1112  B454789-A   Ag                     222 So
Camelot               1115  A766546-A   Ag Ni                  124 So
Qadesh                1117  B889544-8   Ni                     600 So
Bonita                1118  C757765-3   Ag                     304 So
Tharsis               1119  B425579-C N Ni                     622 So
Pax                   1120  B100676-C   Na Ni Va               810 So
Newmark               1122  AA6A99B-E   Hi Wa                  100 So
Lagrange              1123  B798879-7                          600 So
Ransom                1125  A5507B8-9   De Po                  224 So
Yamato                1128  A878A9C-E N Hi In                  124 So
Serendip              1131  A7586A9-8   Ag Ni                  810 So
Cheyenne              1135  B765644-A   Ag Ni Ri               412 Na
Nix                   1136  C100569-C   Ni Va                  725 Na
Beowulf               1138  D436674-8   Ni                     734 Na
Gwydion               1139  B69778A-A   Ag                     424 Na
Bleak                 1140  C551331-6   Lo Ni Po               723 Na
Kronos                1202  C400333-8   Lo Ni Va               700 So
Atlantis              1204  A85A974-C   Hi Wa                  620 So
Shulaakish            1205  B566898-9   Ri                     500 So
715-306               1207  E8A5000-0   Ba Fl                  424 So
Thalna                1208  B501374-C   Ic Lo Ni Va            233 So
Marava                1210  A787999-E   Hi                     123 So
Ares                  1211  A450983-C   De Hi Po               303 So
Bitter                1212  A324459-E N Ni                     624 So
Daedalus              1213  A759788-D                          424 So
New Sylea             1216  C988686-5   Ag Ni Ri               525 So
Matuya                1217  B210210-9   Lo Ni                  724 So
Bayern                1220  A576836-7                          624 So
Veracruz              1221  A648955-C   Hi In                  602 So
Heimdall              1223  A886A77-E   Hi                     222 So
Wells                 1224  A746784-8   Ag                     720 So
Kensho                1228  C514350-9   Ic Lo Ni               303 So
Kingston              1230  C7A5133-9   Fl Lo Ni               824 So
Laplace               1231  D334320-8   Lo Ni                  513 So
Malory                1236  C691110-8   Lo Ni                  300 Na
Voltaire              1237  A361578-E   Ni                     600 Na
Napoli                1306  A666876-C   Ri                     124 So
Athos                 1310  C6466BD-3   Ag Ni                  834 So
Perdition             1312  A310310-D   Lo Ni                  711 So
Ghazi                 1313  B543225-9   Lo Ni Po               302 So
Plutarch              1314  D100256-A   Lo Ni Va               222 So
Caliburn              1316  B442422-9   Ni Po                  302 So
Salvador              1320  A2219DF-E   Hi In Na Po            100 So
Hanover               1322  B656754-9 N Ag                     521 So
Garibaldi             1325  BA99688-7   Ni                     802 So
Terra Nova            1326  A758AB7-C   Hi                     234 So
Chasm                 1329  CAA559C-A   Fl Ni                  422 So
Teilhard              1330  C432356-E   Lo Ni Po               514 So
Invictus              1331  B767889-7   Ri                     924 So
Stone                 1337  C200566-9   Ni Va                  624 Na
Masada                1338  A78768C-A   Ag Ni Ri               625 Na
Zion                  1404  A7769A8-A   Hi In                  412 So
Bran                  1405  B865858-C   Ri                     733 So
Olympus               1406  A8D5755-E N Fl                     724 So
Megiddo               1414  B101656-C   Ic Na Ni Va            302 So
Sapphire              1415  A86A633-C N Ni Wa                  624 So
Castile               1419  A6545A9-8   Ag Ni                  324 So
Bastion               1420  A00088D-E   As Na                  711 So
Thule                 1424  A52499C-A   Hi In                  622 So
Crossroads            1426  A8C4301-E N Fl Lo Ni               524 So
Diamond               1428  B628775-8                          321 So
920-226               1435  E586000-0   Ba                     123 Na
Myrddin               1437  C442226-7   Lo Ni Po               600 Na
Cain                  1438  D64A5A6-9   Ni Wa                  902 Na
Selene                1502  A200A89-E N Hi In Na Va            112 So
Poe                   1504  C100257-B   Lo Ni Va               224 So
Apotheosis            1506  A5258DC-B                          510 So
Arda                  1509  X7868AE-2                        R 514 So
Stavros               1512  B533444-C   Ni Po                  324 So
Timur                 1513  D571520-3   Ni                     423 So
Amaranth              1518  C465375-9   Lo Ni                  724 So
Tide                  1522  X65A520-3   Ni Wa                R 902 So
Serai                 1525  B4107BA-B   Na                     622 So
Landfall              1527  A896ACB-E   Hi In                  210 So
Bell                  1528  A428551-D   Ni                     621 So
Lakota                1529  B625630-9   Ni                     434 So
Uriel                 1534  C110242-A   Lo Ni                  623 Na
917-244               1537  X500000-0   Ba Va                  425 Na
Woden                 1539  AA76548-9   Ag Ni                  900 Na
Kupala                1540  C765332-5   Lo Ni                  322 Na
Albadawi              1603  A686885-A   Ri                     934 So
Trimurti              1604  A67798C-D   Hi In                  623 So
Jabru                 1605  B300658-D   Na Ni Va               312 So
Shamash               1611  B9A2667-9   Fl Ni                  103 So
Tintanon              1613  B331233-B   Lo Ni Po               223 So
Razana                1614  B856ACC-C   Hi                     202 So
Alamut                1620  B410587-D N Ni                     224 So
Sheol                 1622  B130557-A   De Ni Po               123 So
Tristan               1623  B772741-9                          823 So
Iskander              1624  A684535-9   Ag Ni                  810 So
Xanthus               1627  B535436-9   Ni                     100 So
Desolation            1629  A6A0620-9   De Ni                  920 So
Kinnison              1636  B411652-B   Ic Na Ni               725 Na
Arcadia               1702  A56678B-B   Ag Ri                  204 So
Dar al-Islam          1703  B979A87-B   Hi In                  123 So
Veldt                 1708  X46397B-3   Hi                   R 835 So
Pugu                  1709  A300768-B   Na Va                  624 So
Inverness             1710  B342566-A   Ni Po                  322 So
Sparta                1711  A2306AC-A N De Na Ni Po            203 So
Verda                 1712  B300622-9   Na Ni Va               834 So
Iolanthe              1722  E478575-5   Ag Ni                  600 So
Indra                 1725  B225643-B   Ni                     111 So
Deseret               1727  B574A7B-A   Hi In                  112 So
Columbia              1728  B446677-B   Ag Ni                  635 So
Telluride             1730  A232A99-E N Hi Na Po               234 So
Arizona               1731  E460652-3   De Ni Ri               224 So
Clarke                1735  C99A636-7   Ni Wa                  100 Na
Merope                1739  E110102-9   Lo Ni                  523 Na
Lisbon                1740  C576444-8   Ni                     300 Na
Altai                 1802  A552876-8   Po                     921 So
Firebird              1804  C575775-7   Ag                     425 So
Brisbane              1806  A8A4400-D   Fl Ni                  223 So
Gizeh                 1810  C553786-5   Po                     204 So
Concord               1818  B5637AA-8                          624 So
Bastet                1819  A330787-A   De Na Po               624 So
Rajastan              1824  C756769-8   Ag                     313 So
Franklin              1829  A8899BB-A   Hi                     610 So
New Nairobi           1830  A3307BC-A   De Na Po               723 So
890-218               1833  X100000-0   Ba Va                  100 Na
Nantucket             1835  C97A210-D   Lo Ni Wa               803 Na
Destiny               1837  D878202-5   Lo Ni                  824 Na
954-490               1839  X8C0000-0   Ba De                  923 Na
Batavia               1902  A9A389B-C N Fl                     924 So
Benedict              1909  A697888-A                          324 So
Malabar               1910  A635567-B   Ni                     803 So
Lorelei               1917  A779457-D   Ni                     924 So
Alilat                1918  B669553-D   Ni                     514 So
Hardship              1919  C5A5312-A   Fl Lo Ni               523 So
Chandra               1924  A310443-E   Ni                     434 So
Pandora               1927  A645ABA-E N Hi In                  200 So
Fraser                1929  B642510-B   Ni Po                  314 So
Kalahari              1935  A460654-B   De Ni Ri               223 Na
918-323               1936  X222000-0   Ba Po                  824 Na
921-997               1937  X8A7000-0   Ba Fl                  810 Na
Damnation             1938  E437435-9   Ni                     521 Na
Plato                 1940  D878220-6   Lo Ni                  324 Na
Muscovy               2002  B876845-A                          124 So
Tesla                 2004  A474A9A-E   Hi In                  204 So
Huaxia                2007  A7789AC-D   Hi In                  325 So
Turing                2010  A34569B-B   Ag Ni                  602 So
Medina                2018  B897887-A N                        724 So
Amida                 2019  C330769-8   De Na Po               934 So
Tagore                2020  A86887A-B   Ri                     224 So
Tormance              2022  AA68AAB-E   Hi                     100 So
Surya                 2023  B997878-B N                        623 So
Mu                    2024  C799498-5   Ni                     900 So
Denali                2027  B539675-8   Ni                     900 So
St. Thomas            2030  B657878-A                          814 So
Pytheas               2035  B5536A9-8   Ni Po                  434 Na
Dis                   2038  E200210-9   Lo Ni Va               411 Na
Baal                  2040  B45048C-9   De Ni Po               422 Na
Kashgar               2102  C534778-8                          110 So
Mictlan               2104  B200404-9   Ni Va                  303 So
Newcastle             2106  B5438BD-8   Po                     713 So
Wovoka                2107  A88A997-E N Hi Wa                  434 So
Memnon                2111  A657655-A   Ag Ni                  821 So
Justinian             2115  C66755A-8   Ag Ni                  902 So
Hector                2116  A200557-D   Ni Va                  314 So
Minos                 2117  X385654-2   Ag Ni Ri             R 223 So
Canyon                2125  BAF5677-7   Fl Ni                  202 So
Refuge                2127  A100A79-E   Hi In Na Va            223 So
Barbary               2128  C6B0622-9   De Ni                  423 So
Armstrong             2132  E110562-9   Ni                     700 So
Scatters              2133  B0008AD-D   As Na                  801 So
890-595               2135  X7C0000-0   Ba De                  300 Na
931-538               2140  E657000-0   Ba                     924 Na
Taliesin              2201  B756833-5                          302 So
Renault               2203  B678755-A   Ag                     133 So
Malta                 2205  A96A877-C N Ri Wa                  101 So
Sabah                 2206  B626755-A                          224 So
Newton                2208  B466945-9   Hi                     222 So
Lucifer               2209  C793432-7   Ni                     100 So
Echo                  2212  A00098A-E N As Hi In Na            533 So
Tecumseh              2213  A777720-C   Ag                     424 So
Tanaroa               2214  C76A563-7   Ni Wa                  902 So
Canaan                2216  A878684-C   Ag Ni                  835 So
Kepler                2218  B000759-B   As Na                  110 So
Rama                  2220  A893678-8   Ni                     323 So
Kashmir               2223  A644976-A   Hi In                  502 So
Faraway               2230  C33568A-9   Ni                     923 So
Wolfe                 2233  A363535-E N Ni                     724 So
911-241               2234  X8A4000-0   Ba Fl                  512 Na
Koshchei              2235  C523212-9   Lo Ni Po               502 Na
Masaya                2239  CAD9356-9   Fl Lo Ni               300 Na
Nzame                 2240  E896233-7   Lo Ni                  104 Na
Temujin               2302  BAB5587-C   Fl Ni                  814 So
Wilkes                2303  D100656-A   Na Ni Va               400 So
Kalmar                2307  A775622-B   Ag Ni                  113 So
Deirdre               2312  X897254-3   Lo Ni                R 101 So
Brilliant             2313  B529999-B   Hi In                  620 So
Anansi                2315  A989451-E   Ni                     324 So
Arjuna                2320  A514652-A   Ic Ni                  504 So
Bharat                2324  A564A9C-E N Hi                     124 So
Touchdown             2339  C8A0301-9   De Lo Ni               723 Na
Ganymede              2340  C410355-B   Lo Ni                  202 Na
Princeton             2403  D412264-7   Ic Lo Ni               122 So
Hermes                2405  B7989BB-9   Hi In                  224 So
Enoch                 2409  B8669B8-A N Hi                     220 So
Paravel               2414  E410157-9   Lo Ni                  910 So
Cybele                2416  A9D899A-A   Fl Hi                  303 So
Guinee                2417  C86A8DF-8   Wa                     300 So
Ariadne               2428  C697667-8   Ag Ni                  201 So
Iona                  2429  A464420-9   Ni                     323 So
Tyre                  2431  A588452-E N Ni                     622 So
Drab                  2432  B430456-B   De Ni Po               602 So
Tintagel              2438  C410201-C   Lo Ni                  913 Na
Sebastos              2502  A566886-B   Ri                     222 So
Locke                 2503  C30077B-A   Na Va                  401 So
Antiquity             2505  A5A2354-E   Fl Lo Ni               300 So
Phaedra               2506  A310855-A   Na                     234 So
Jacaranda             2508  B400678-B   Na Ni Va               924 So
Anderson              2511  A465557-E   Ag Ni                  722 So
Avesta                2512  A62569B-B   Ni                     723 So
Lawrence              2513  B300887-C   Na Va                  703 So
Seraph                2515  C494769-6   Ag                     123 So
Maidan                2517  D200525-9   Ni Va                  124 So
New Hawaii            2518  A67A99A-E   Hi In Wa               514 So
Carnelian             2522  C511438-A   Ic Ni                  134 So
Laomedon              2523  C220387-B   De Lo Ni Po            424 So
Wormwood              2524  C210645-8   Na Ni                  934 So
Jericho               2532  C400465-B   Ni Va                  803 So
936-125               2536  X200000-0   Ba Va                  224 Na
Yama                  2538  C324322-A   Lo Ni                  222 Na
Aztlan                2601  B9898CC-6                          425 So
Helicon               2606  C869773-5   Ri                     113 So
The Realm             2608  A665ADB-C   Hi                     324 So
Ulysses               2613  A75A754-B N Wa                     624 So
Rand                  2614  B322720-8   Na Po                  902 So
Ratri                 2619  C410689-9   Na Ni                  224 So
New Vantage           2620  C9DA477-9   Fl Ni Wa               912 So
Teela                 2621  A444457-C   Ni                     120 So
Coventry              2624  A596687-8   Ag Ni                  424 So
Devaki                2625  A78A7A5-D   Wa                     124 So
Ahriman               2635  B623200-C   Lo Ni Po               834 Na
899-034               2636  X632000-0   Ba Po                  524 Na
Providence            2637  B474424-7   Ni                     925 Na
Amber                 2702  A64699A-E N Hi In                  733 So
Zarathustra           2703  C100858-C   Na Va                  224 So
Arrian                2704  B8B3567-9   Fl Ni                  420 So
Catalunya             2707  B44499C-8   Hi In                  624 So
Aeolus                2708  B766577-6   Ag Ni                  423 So
Botany Bay            2709  B66A944-A N Hi Wa                  220 So
Attica                2717  C325899-9                          525 So
Bazaar                2720  AAB9333-E   Fl Lo Ni               523 So
Saranaki              2722  A41088B-A N Na                     224 So
St. Elias             2726  E220120-9   De Lo Ni Po            610 So
Basilisk              2728  C6737B6-4                          610 So
Outfield              2732  B330323-D   De Lo Ni Po            820 Na
Last Chance           2735  E454253-5   Lo Ni                  923 Na
Bethel                2739  C200200-8   Lo Ni Va               302 Na
Jamshyd               2802  C545566-6   Ag Ni                  523 So
Lynne                 2804  A230556-D   De Ni Po               722 So
Freehold              2806  A654200-B   Lo Ni                  702 So
Tanil                 2813  D696342-6   Lo Ni                  724 So
Buku                  2816  C447688-4   Ag Ni                  900 So
Tyrone                2823  C514543-9   Ic Ni                  734 So
867-853               2824  E410000-0   Ba                     720 So
Gryphon               2825  A984579-B   Ag Ni                  724 So
Manticore             2827  B668513-A   Ag Ni                  624 So
Lilith                2829  E8A6200-8   Fl Lo Ni               225 So
Cyrano                2830  B100201-C N Lo Ni Va               102 So
Libertad              2835  C6598DF-6                          514 Na
Aimend                2836  B685400-A   Ni                     423 Na
Borges                2904  A675922-E   Hi In                  125 So
Paulette              2905  C506385-8   Ic Lo Ni Va            622 So
Alphard               2906  B7A2320-B   Fl Lo Ni               724 So
Kodiak                2907  C876565-5   Ag Ni                  124 So
Ekera                 2912  A400477-B N Ni Va                  120 So
King                  2913  B6B5300-D   Fl Lo Ni               424 So
Hestia                2914  B553553-7   Ni Po                  900 So
Sphinx                2924  B53557B-C   Ni                     824 So
Natal                 2928  D639154-9   Lo Ni                  424 So
Meade                 2932  A200622-B   Na Ni Va               334 Na
941-240               2940  X200000-0   Ba Va                  613 Na
Nesia                 3005  A98A665-9   Ni Ri Wa               623 So
Khemet                3008  CA59984-9   Hi                     723 So
New Salem             3010  B685888-8   Ri                     534 So
Freisen               3019  C687687-4   Ag Ni Ri               912 So
Leviathan             3022  B599525-9   Ni                     123 So
Camlann               3023  B465245-B   Lo Ni                  124 So
Saarinen              3024  C97A565-8   Ni Wa                  422 So
928-749               3025  E210000-0   Ba                     124 So
928-826               3026  E424000-0   Ba                     410 So
Exile                 3028  D88A200-9   Lo Ni Wa               823 So
Xinjiang              3030  B461497-8   Ni                     103 So
Verge                 3034  B55669B-A   Ag Ni                  225 Na
965-736               3036  E57A000-0   Ba Wa                  603 Na
Argos                 3104  A000563-E N As Ni                  914 So
Xanadu                3106  A886444-A   Ni                     922 So
Firdausi              3107  A778ABF-C   Hi In                  224 So
Danaus                3113  D566688-6   Ag Ni Ri               634 So
Oceanus               3115  AA7A411-E   Ni Wa                  900 So
Coburg                3116  C544766-5   Ag                     423 So
Lysander              3118  A000977-D N As Hi In Na            625 So
831-221               3124  E534000-0   Ba                     402 So
Rashnu                3125  C546251-8   Lo Ni                  621 So
Starkad               3126  C898646-4   Ag Ni                  733 So
Theodosius            3131  B7B2321-C   Fl Lo Ni               421 So
944-270               3135  E476000-0   Ba                     913 Na
Etain                 3202  B776777-9   Ag                     522 So
New Beijing           3203  C524632-8   Ni                     110 So
Styx                  3205  B5A0745-9   De                     823 So
Lamia                 3206  C200589-9   Ni Va                  622 So
Freya                 3209  B765AAA-9   Hi                     134 So
Cilicia               3215  C5846A7-5   Ag Ni                  222 So
Faust                 3216  A647410-D   Ni                     524 So
Elysium               3218  B755576-8   Ag Ni                  912 So
856-015               3228  X8C8000-0   Ba Fl                  514 So
Elis                  3233  C5597AE-4                          224 Na
Forward               3234  B524444-C   Ni                     623 Na
--part1_e4.25704b2c.29dcb669_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
Message-ID: <164.b8cd038.29dcb7e0@aol.com>

Oh, bloody hell.

Ignore that, everyone. Was meant for private email.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:33:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:33:44 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
Message-ID: <200204032032.DHB01917@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

JFZeigler@aol.com  says
>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur 
>historian, freelance writer, occasional scribbler of bad 
>poetry

At least you're not a stand-up philosopher.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
Message-ID: <126.e80c5ee.29dcc2a2@aol.com>

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 03/04/02 00:50:39 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


> > _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
> > mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
> > reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
> > but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
> > 
> > [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.
> 
> Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are
> interfertile.
> 

Depends on what you mean by "interfertile" some species (including ones with 
differing numbers of chromosomes) can interbreed but not produce fertile 
young.

The horse family is the classic example of this (horse (64 chromosomes) + 
donkey (62 chromosomes) = mule (63 chromosomes)), although interbreeding of 
captive big cats is not uncommon. Interestingly I'm not aware of any great 
ape interbreeding.

If you mean interbreed and produce fertile young there's a question over 
whether most of the subspecies of human could. Genetic drift after three 
hundred thousand years or so of isolation is likely to have had some 
interesting consequences. Genetic engineering of seperated groups by assorted 
Ancients is unlikely to have helped.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:50:39 GMT Daylight Time, webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been<BR>
&gt; mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the<BR>
&gt; reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,<BR>
&gt; but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.<BR>
<BR>
Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are<BR>
interfertile.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Depends on what you mean by "interfertile" some species (including ones with differing numbers of chromosomes) can interbreed but not produce fertile young.<BR>
<BR>
The horse family is the classic example of this (horse (64 chromosomes) + donkey (62 chromosomes) = mule (63 chromosomes)), although interbreeding of captive big cats is not uncommon. Interestingly I'm not aware of any great ape interbreeding.<BR>
<BR>
If you mean interbreed and produce fertile young there's a question over whether most of the subspecies of human could. Genetic drift after three hundred thousand years or so of isolation is likely to have had some interesting consequences. Genetic engineering of seperated groups by assorted Ancients is unlikely to have helped.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_126.e80c5ee.29dcc2a2_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <3CAB69B2.95EE7DA@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>
> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
> 2 worlds
>
  >>
  .....YES!!!FINALLY!!!.....

[I think] John-Martin wrote:
>have you ever seen my semi-regular Binges rant?

Actually, I think I missed it. 

As a representative of a low pop world, I want to hear 
more about this.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <200204032049.DHB04097@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

><snippage>
>> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
>> 2 worlds
>>

I always thought that these were either scientific 
establishments - OR -

Laning's Retirement Palace
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:00:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 13:00:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Questions, questions
Message-ID: <172.62e952a.29dcc73c@aol.com>

--part1_172.62e952a.29dcc73c_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 02/04/02 19:53:37 GMT Daylight Time, 
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:


> > 1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to 
> > remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible
> 
> Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's 
> ridiculous as well. Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens, 
> H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.

Are you sure you mean H. hablis? Evolved circa 2.2 myr ago died out probably 
around 1.5 - 1.6 myr ago AFAIK.

The candidates as far as I see it are H. heidelbergensis, H. neatherthalensis 
or H. erectus. Neanderthals and erectus are both probably poor choices which 
leaves us with H. heidelbergensis, which is logical since heidelbergensis 
used to be known as archaic homo sapiens. 

> 
> A more logical explanation would be that Gramps took H. hablis, geneered 
> the species into H. sap, and re-seeded Terra, as well as Zhodane and 
> Vland (and all the other planets) with the new species.
> 
> Would explain some of the more puzzling aspects of our evolution...
> 
This is almost certainly it since H. heidelbergensis is probably the direct 
ancestor of H. sapiens.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 19:53:37 GMT Daylight Time, johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; 1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to <BR>
&gt; remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible<BR>
<BR>
Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's <BR>
ridiculous as well. Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens, <BR>
H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Are you sure you mean H. hablis? Evolved circa 2.2 myr ago died out probably around 1.5 - 1.6 myr ago AFAIK.<BR>
<BR>
The candidates as far as I see it are H. heidelbergensis, H. neatherthalensis or H. erectus. Neanderthals and erectus are both probably poor choices which leaves us with H. heidelbergensis, which is logical since heidelbergensis used to be known as archaic homo sapiens. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
A more logical explanation would be that Gramps took H. hablis, geneered <BR>
the species into H. sap, and re-seeded Terra, as well as Zhodane and <BR>
Vland (and all the other planets) with the new species.<BR>
<BR>
Would explain some of the more puzzling aspects of our evolution...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
This is almost certainly it since H. heidelbergensis is probably the direct ancestor of H. sapiens.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 13:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
Message-ID: <175.62e4c55.29dcca53@aol.com>

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In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk 
writes:


> >Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
> >ridiculous as well.
> 
> No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H. 
> erectus_
> and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
> actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
> it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
> showing up as early as that.

H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say 
I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H. 
sapiens back that far. If by archaic H. sapiens you mean H. heidelbergensis 
then you're right.

> 
> But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
> tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In
> the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place
> _H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.

True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are 
descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even 
more arrogant than they already are.

> 
> >Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens,
> >H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.
> 
> _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
> mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
> reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
> but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
> 
> [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.
> 
> 
> Hans
> 

The Solomani Institute of Extraterrestrial Human Studies votes for H. 
heidelbergensis zhodotlas and H. heidelbergensis vlandensis :)

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's<BR>
&gt;ridiculous as well.<BR>
<BR>
No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H. erectus_<BR>
and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That<BR>
actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing<BR>
it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_<BR>
showing up as early as that.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H. sapiens back that far. If by archaic H. sapiens you mean H. heidelbergensis then you're right.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up<BR>
tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In<BR>
the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place<BR>
_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even more arrogant than they already are.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
&gt;Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens,<BR>
&gt;H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.<BR>
<BR>
_H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been<BR>
mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the<BR>
reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,<BR>
but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.<BR>
<BR>
[*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hans<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
The Solomani Institute of Extraterrestrial Human Studies votes for H. heidelbergensis zhodotlas and H. heidelbergensis vlandensis :)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_175.62e4c55.29dcca53_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr  3 13:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <20020402201432.444efd17.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEKEDJAA.tml@downport.com>

All of the news that's fit to print, of course. But ideas already on the
table are posted at http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=40

and yes, poly-tics needs to be woven through the whole organization. For
instance, not just anyone can join the TAS. You must roll to avoid the
blacklist... and who maintains this mysterious list?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

How much material are you aiming at? What kind?

I imagine TAS could be used as an alternative to the intrigues among the
noble families. After all, the idle rich are always a good source for
strife. Just look at the old-school soap operas (Dallas, Falcon Crest,
etc) out there...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Corridor PBEM, or What Happens When You Retire
Message-ID: <200204032215.DHD09409@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

If you're interested and already sent me an e-mail, please re-
confirm by sending me your character. If you are just 
interested, please send me your character.  Please use CT 
LBB, Book4, 5, Scouts, Merchant Prince, or Citizens.

The campaign begins at a beautiful retirement enclave, built 
by a previous band of adventurers who initially made their 
fortune during the Fifth Frontier War.  Various adventurers 
have been attracted to, and joined the enclave in their 
retirement.  The enclave has been a patron to other 
adventurers as well.

More on the enclave and its location in a moment...
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Universal TwistsTable
Message-ID: <20020403.143010.-258599.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

Rachel

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 02:37:18 +0800 "Rachel Kronick"
<rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net> writes:
> Hi all!
> 
> I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists 
> Table (UTT), where you roll and a result like "Antagonist turns out 
> to be Protagonist's long-lost relative" or "20 drunken goons ambush 
> the PC on the way home" or whatever come up.  we could make a 
> big UTT with a thousand or so entries so repeats are rare...
> 
> -- 

Sounds like a great idea, run with it...

I can't think of any at the moment, my brain needs a jump start. Perhaps
posting ideas will inspire others [including myself] to think up a few,
then you could develop the table from the plentiful results, after all,
it was your idea.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <3CABBC5E.30314.BCBF6D@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402205809.027d9ba0@pop.wizard.net>
 <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403173248.02493b60@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:37 AM 4/4/02 +0800, you wrote:
>Hi all!
>
>I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists
>Table (UTT), where you roll and a result like "Antagonist turns out
>to be Protagonist's long-lost relative" or "20 drunken goons ambush
>the PC on the way home" or whatever come up.  we could make a
>big UTT with a thousand or so entries so repeats are rare...
>
>-- Rachel

Good idea, and I applaud and admire it.

The really surprising surprise is more like what I had in mind.  Not "what 
is their true motivation, really?" but "You walk to the mailbox and hear a 
strange click as you open it.  Some sixth sense makes you jump to the 
side.  An explosion plumes out of the mouth of the mailbox, right through 
where you were just standing.  There are nasty-looking steel darts embedded 
very deeply in the tree on the opposite side of the street."  Something 
totally out of the blue.  And you can't use my exploding-mailbox random 
event because you've already written it so you know it _might_ happen.

The best conceptual approach I've devised so far is we help each other out 
by writing random events, posting them via the Internet to each other, and 
then we can each use someone else's random events and some dice or other 
random number generator.  No peeking allowed.

Alternatively, there was the suggested approach of "it's a lot like playing 
chess against yourself".  But only the most scrupulously intellectually 
honest person could really do that up right.  I'd be very tempted to let my 
munchkinness run wild, for instance.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <200204032049.DHB04097@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403174814.0255e1a0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon retorts:
> ><snippage>
> >> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
> >> 2 worlds
>
>I always thought that these were either scientific
>establishments - OR -
>
>Laning's Retirement Palace

Heh.  Nah.  It's nice to think that there might be nearly "unspoiled" 
worlds like that somewhere, but I wouldn't want to live on them.  For one 
thing, the TML would be pretty lacking in activity on a place like that.  I 
need more intellectual activities than can be provided by a population of 
less than 100 sophonts.  You could always posit that those ninety people 
are the ninety most brilliant and knowledgeable people who ever lived, I 
guess.  It's a retirement palace for the best and the brightest.  But then 
you'd have to explain why they let me retire there too!

Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major 
metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a 
twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to ride my 
bicycle around on for training and take different routes each day.  Fifteen 
miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest needs.  Really.  Don't 
forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] heaven and earth
Message-ID: <200204032300.DHF06393@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

does anyone know where I can find a list of known bugs?

also, I wouldn't mind porting this to Smalltalk.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Laning wrote:
Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major 
metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a 
twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to ride my 
bicycle around on for training and take different routes each day.  Fifteen 
miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest needs.  Really.  Don't 
forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.

--Laning



How about this Laning?
http://www.trinityyachts.com/seahawk.htm

The boat's also detailed in the current (April 2002) issue of Yachting.  Drop me
an e-mail if you want me to send you some scans ;)

Jesse
wyrwolff@yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:16:02 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB8CD5.530DEA4@premier.net>


"DeGraff, Jesse" wrote:
> 
> Laning wrote:
> Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major
> metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a
> twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to ride my
> bicycle around on for training and take different routes each day.  Fifteen
> miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest needs.  Really.  Don't
> forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.
> 
> --Laning
> 
> How about this Laning?
> http://www.trinityyachts.com/seahawk.htm
> 
> The boat's also detailed in the current (April 2002) issue of Yachting.  Drop me
> an e-mail if you want me to send you some scans ;)
> 
Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)

Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:

http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEKEDJAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <20020402201432.444efd17.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403181532.02492b50@pop.wizard.net>

>I imagine TAS could be used as an alternative to the intrigues among the
>noble families. After all, the idle rich are always a good source for
>strife. Just look at the old-school soap operas (Dallas, Falcon Crest,
>etc) out there...

True enough.  I live in the suburbs between Washington, D.C. and the 
fox-hunting Virginia countryside where there are dozens of billionaires 
with a B, and the big hunt/horse events are an important part of the social 
calendar for zillionaires from all over the world.  Every time there's a 
murder in Middleburg or something, it shows up as a made-for-TV movie two 
years later.  Like clockwork.  :->

'Dallas' & 'Falcon Crest' are old school soap operas?!  One of us is dating 
ourselves, 'cuz I see something like 'As The World Turns' as old school and 
'Dallas' as a recent fad.  And of course there were the old radio shows 
that were before my time; they actually were sponsored by soap 
companies.  It's all subjective, I guess.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:22:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:22:28 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
In-Reply-To: <3CAB8CD5.530DEA4@premier.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACELDCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

John Groth says
[Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:]

Nice.  But where is the triple laser turret?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:27:02 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" l
 ong)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

That's not a yacht, it's a pocket cruise ship ;)
Jesse


John Groth proclaimed:
Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)

Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:

http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:29:02 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACELDCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3CAB8FE7.32401A30@premier.net>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> John Groth says
> [Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:]
> 
> Nice.  But where is the triple laser turret?

Not mounted.  As _Britannia_ was designed for rapid conversion to a
hospital ship at need, the laws of war forbid mounting of offensive
weapons.

I am given to understand, however, that the 2 3-pdr. saluting guns are
point-defense capable.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] heaven and earth
In-Reply-To: <200204032300.DHF06393@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D0D965.34814%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/3/02 3:00 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> does anyone know where I can find a list of known bugs?
> 
> also, I wouldn't mind porting this to Smalltalk.

Just a word of warning.  I got the source for a possible mac port.  It
written in VB.  There's on source file that's over a meg.  AAARRRGG.

I thought it would be an easy post to the mac using RealBasic.  Boy was I
wrong.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FA@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net>

Jesse DeGraff says:

>How about this Laning?
>http://www.trinityyachts.com/seahawk.htm
>
>The boat's also detailed in the current (April 2002) issue of 
>Yachting.  Drop me
>an e-mail if you want me to send you some scans ;)

Hmm, that's pretty nice.  :->

But it doesn't seem to have a suitable helicopter.  And I'd prefer to have 
a spot more conducive to sunning while cruising slowly or at anchor.  With 
cocktails.  And where's the swimming pool?  Some of the yachts found at the 
link you posted a few weeks back had swimming pools.

Remember, I'm a man of a modest needs, but you can't honestly expect me to 
want for all those basic necessities can you?  :->

I'd pull up one or two yachts from that other site, but the computer where 
my bookmarks live is currently a little under the weather.

I'd really like the yacht to be a sailboat but that plays hell with trying 
to use the helicopter, or even where to keep the car.

--Laning
Sheez, that Trinity yacht has a 38-footer listed as one of its tenders.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FC@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403191641.00a990b0@pop.wizard.net>

>John Groth proclaimed:
>Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)
>
>Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:
>
>http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

Yes, that might be suitable.  A bit old though, don't you think?  And it 
probably needs some pretty extensive remodelling for the helopad and hangar.

Remember, I'm a man of modest needs.

--Laning

PS  Both of those yachts were good fodder for my budding Traveller 
campaign.  I thank you.  I think my wife and I will have fun together 
looking at the online tour of HM Britannia.  :->

I wonder...should the truly luxurious yacht owner carry his own ocean-going 
yacht in the hold of his star yacht?  Captain Nemo probably would.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/3/02 4:14 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Hmm, that's pretty nice.  :->
> 
> But it doesn't seem to have a suitable helicopter.  And I'd prefer to have
> a spot more conducive to sunning while cruising slowly or at anchor.  With
> cocktails.  And where's the swimming pool?  Some of the yachts found at the
> link you posted a few weeks back had swimming pools.
> 
> Remember, I'm a man of a modest needs, but you can't honestly expect me to
> want for all those basic necessities can you?  :->


Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?

http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html

Now that's what I am talking about.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] using heaven and earth
Message-ID: <200204040040.DHJ01676@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod, how hard was it to take the output from h&e (html) and 
turn it into what you have for the spinwardmarches site?

I am thinking of doing the same thing for Corridor.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Suddenly, Blackmoore Heavy Industries (builders of the Acipiter series ships and
others) branches off to wet-ship design.  Pretty impressive when you consider
they're asteroid based ;)
Jesse


Kindest Sophont Laning,
Regarding your RFP for a "modest", helicopter (how quaint!) equipped motoryacht,
are you looking for something in an expedition style yacht
[http://www.yachtworld.com/expeditionyachts/expeditionyachts_3.html], something
classical [http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/], or something a little more
aggressive looking? [http://www.newzealandyachts.com/].

Best Regards,
David Phoenecius
Blackmoore Heavy Industries


-----Original Message-----
From: laning [mailto:laning@wizard.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 4:26 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)



>John Groth proclaimed:
>Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)
>
>Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:
>
>http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

Yes, that might be suitable.  A bit old though, don't you think?  And it 
probably needs some pretty extensive remodelling for the helopad and hangar.

Remember, I'm a man of modest needs.

--Laning

PS  Both of those yachts were good fodder for my budding Traveller 
campaign.  I thank you.  I think my wife and I will have fun together 
looking at the online tour of HM Britannia.  :->

I wonder...should the truly luxurious yacht owner carry his own ocean-going 
yacht in the hold of his star yacht?  Captain Nemo probably would.

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:02:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:02:37 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <20020403.170340.-179719.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

> Laning wrote:
> Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major 
> metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a 
> twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to
> ride my bicycle around on for training and take different routes each
> day.  Fifteen miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest
> needs.  Really. Don't forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.
> 
> --Laning

Why not just take Catalina Island off the Southern California's Long
Beach coast.
Live in Wriggly's mansion, and enslave Avalon harbor. 
They have a small harbor, a private small plane airstrip, a secluded
school for Mercenary training, room for a submarine base, accessible by
sea plane, helicopter, yacht, or small plane, and if you like the
outdoors, a small herd of Bison.

Don't worry about the rattlesnakes, they'll at least warn you before they
strike.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
Message-ID: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission 
times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had 
holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might 
be traded on many worlds.

Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was 
traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on 
that world traded electronically.

You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
to try and offset this sort of risk?

Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017882903.8505.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission 
> times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had 
> holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might 
> be traded on many worlds.
> 
> Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was 
> traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on 
> that world traded electronically.
> 
> You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
> stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
> get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
> to try and offset this sort of risk?

Aside from a broker on Regina who handles the investment for you?  No.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:16:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:16:35 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEKKDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Sort of gives you a reminder of how stock brokers got so powerful. A century
ago you REALLY had to trust your brokerage to do what was in your best
interest.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission
times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had
holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might
be traded on many worlds.

Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was
traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on
that world traded electronically.

You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the
stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to
get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments
to try and offset this sort of risk?

Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
Message-ID: <20020403.173322.-179719.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:08:21 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
> stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
> get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
> to try and offset this sort of risk?
> 
> Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?
>

One would assume that your portfolio in the 57th century would have a lot
more safeguards than todays economic choices and options. Todays brokers
can key in a buy or sell if above or below a certain point. The future
would be so electronic, computerization so A.I. that your entire
portfolio could change, grow, etc, while you're out jumping around the
galaxy. But because of your pre-jump commands to your home computer,
you'd have no worry's at all, in fact if programmed right you'd be making
Credits all the time.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEPKGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

hmmm, 
stock futures? invest in as basket of 
stocks.  put a proportion of your stock 
in mega corps __ if they crash the 
imperium has probably crashed so you 
really don't need to worry ... too much :)

jml
_____________
my other computer runs BSD
and another, Mac OS 9, and 
another NT, and .....
you get the idea

jml
jmlotzn1@pacbell.net
_________________





I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission 
times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had 
holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might 
be traded on many worlds.

Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was 
traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on 
that world traded electronically.

You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
to try and offset this sort of risk?

Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] book two ship building
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEPNGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I've been thinking again,  one potentialy cool thing
to contemplate is that each race can have different types
of standard ship elements.  Aslan optimize for m drive 
speed.  Vagyar ships are optimized as m3 j2 pp 3 ships for 
every default hull, Zho ships have smaller j drives but 
the m drives are bigger and so on, unless it is design to 
run without a PSI aboard in which case both drives are 
too big. Or for instance the Ante Spinward yards has a 
standard hull with a different drive, hull ratio.

much coolness with too much violence the rules.

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:58:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:58:07 2002
Subject: [TML] book two ship building ( minor correction thingee )
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEPNGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEPNGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

errr that should be

much coolness without too much violence the rules.
                  ^^^
________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] book two ship building ( minor correction thingee )
Message-ID: <200204040203.DHL05589@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

John-Martin says
>
>errr that should be
>
>much coolness without too much violence the rules.
>                  ^^^

I don't know. It seems nearly impossible to "really" damage a 
ship in High Guard.  If you compare the amount of damage that 
can be done with, say four triple beam turrets in LBB 2, and 
try that same amount of weaponry in HG, at least I have a 
chance of getting critical hits in LBB 2.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net> <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020404122756.A18722@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?

Come on now, *any* boat can submerge :)

> http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html

... though I must admit the ability to come back up again does have
some appeal.  Interestingly enough, this sub is almost exactly 100
dtons.  Only $78 million, too.  That would be what, 20 MCrImp?  Not
far off the cost of a 100-dton starship :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net> <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020404122756.A18722@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CABBC6C.54730FB0@premier.net>


Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Tod Glenn wrote:
> > Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?
> 
> Come on now, *any* boat can submerge :)
> 
> > http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html
> 
> ... though I must admit the ability to come back up again does have
> some appeal.

To paraphrase the advice a med tech game me several years ago:

Water on the outside, air on the inside.  Any deviation is bad.*

*The actual advice was "The air goes in and out, the blood goes 'round
and 'round.  Any deviation is bad."

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
In-Reply-To: <164.b8cd038.29dcb7e0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CAC67AA.23713.6F6A07@localhost>

On 3 Apr 2002, at 14:54, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:

> Oh, bloody hell.
> 
> Ignore that, everyone. Was meant for private email.

This is not the sector you're looking for, move along.

(Well someone had to say it)

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
Message-ID: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>

Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered 
seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat 
that had not a conventional sail, but basically an 
airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing 
around trying to find information and pictures about 
this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more 
info about this boat or have any links?

Jesse


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Information, please:  Kians
Message-ID: <OFC3572B3F.B36E56CE-ONCA256B91.0013E1A4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Larsen asked:
>Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians

Have a look in my Library Data under "K" - "Kian". There's a whole entry 
on them (sans picture, sorry!), including these CT stats:

Number  Animal Type  Weight  Hits   Armour  Wounds and Weapons 
10-60   Grazer       400 kg  25/10  jack    10 Hooves A9 F4 S3 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Beowulf Down update - Letter of Marque!
Message-ID: <OF41324AB5.DC2907F0-ONCA256B91.0014375C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Got my 'Net access back last night, and to celebrate I uploaded a blank 
Letter of Marque, plus a few filled-in LoM's for the PC's in my campaign.

(I also forgot to mention I added a few new taglines. Oh yeah, and a j-6 
map to the Tavonni RICE Paper. I'll really have to update my "Just 
Detected" page!  ;-).

For the blank one, either go in through "Just Detected", or via Tavonni 
Repair Bays ==> Other Assorted Notes ==> Letter of Marque.

To find the filled-in LoM's, again go thru "Just Detected", or via Tavonni 
Specialities ==> Adifux Inc LIC ==> then the various Letters of Marque.

BTW, did anyone have any comments on my _Robots_ rules fixes?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:59:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:59:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Electronic Copy of MT Ruleset?
Message-ID: <OFA21335D5.ACFFA0F8-ONCA256B91.00154011@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

I asked this a couple of months ago, but got no reply:

        A year or more ago, someone on the TML offered us the MT rules in 
electronic form.

        Marc apparently allows the person to release a limited number of 
copies per year (provided the recipient can show proof-of-purchase).

        Can anyone tell me:
                (a) who the person is;
                (b) how I can get in contact with them; and
                (c) if any copies are available *this* year?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <OF0CB4ECE7.A245C0B1-ONCA256B91.00169DC3@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>> Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
>> opposed to deuterium or tritium)?
>
>No, P-P probably would be phosphorus.  I should have written p-p.

Um, maybe H-H, hydrogen to hydrogen (as opposed to D-D deuterium-to-D, or 
T-T tritium-to T)?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <200204040421.UAA31186@ping.iii.com>

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au writes:

>Dear Folks -
>
>>> Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
>>> opposed to deuterium or tritium)?
>>
>>No, P-P probably would be phosphorus.  I should have written p-p.
>
>Um, maybe H-H, hydrogen to hydrogen (as opposed to D-D deuterium-to-D, or 
>T-T tritium-to T)?

Nope.  H is insufficiently clear, since deuterium and tritium _are_ 
hydrogen.  p for proton.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402080234.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20403.202553.7U7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 03:43 AM 4/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
>>>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...
>>
>>Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug, 
>>your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead 
>>GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is 
>>despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode 
>>of eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.
>>
>>--Laning, Canoneer of God
>
> I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
>
> (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
>
> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

"Eppur, si mouve..." is the original, I believe? 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
References: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <3CABDBEE.7B9724CC@pobox.com>

Check out http://www.windrocket.com/index.html.

WKH

JDEGRAFF@sbcglobal.net wrote:

> Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered
> seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat
> that had not a conventional sail, but basically an
> airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing
> around trying to find information and pictures about
> this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more
> info about this boat or have any links?
>
> Jesse
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
In-Reply-To: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
References: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <dklnauohlk3ounbqd2b03igvg33l5810e9@4ax.com>

On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:38:37 -0500, JDEGRAFF@sbcglobal.net wrote:

>Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered=20
>seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat=20
>that had not a conventional sail, but basically an=20
>airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing=20
>around trying to find information and pictures about=20
>this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more=20
>info about this boat or have any links?

I had seen the reference as well.  The key Google term turns out to be
"wingsail" and a couple standard publicity shots can be found at
http://www.lusas.com/images/yacht.gif,
http://www.formsys.com/Maxsurf/MSLaunchingsPage/WalkerWingsailPic1.gif
or http://www.boatshow.com/IMAGES/SAILBOATS/waz001aT4.jpg.  Sorry, but
both of the images are similar and small, but should be enough to
confirm what you remember.

The depicted boat is the Zephyr 43.  Unfortunately, it appears that
Walker Wingsail is no longer in business.

A much smaller alternative, but definitely interesting in appearance
is at
http://www.marinersguide.com/dockswap/national/messages/115.html,
though as one correspondent had it, there was a buoyancy problem.
When the 200 lbs pilot carried his child on his lap, the vessel tended
to submarine.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <20020403123426.04d59074.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20403.203116.4A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> laning wrote:
>> By the way, Jens, have you read Hal Clement's 'Mission of Gravity'?
>> A great example of intelligent alien life forms evolving on a world
>> extremely different from Terra.  A just plain extreme world, in
>> fact.  Clement opens the hood and lets us peer into a lot of the
>> alien building he does.  The book's a classic, in fact.

> Nope, I haven't. And I doubt that the library has that book in stock.
> I've placed it on the list of books to look for now, though.

You may want to see if you can get copies of "The Essential Hal
Clement" Volumes I, II and III. Volume III has Mission of Gravity, the
sequel "Star Light", and several short stories that are related.

The set has a lot of strange world or aliens that are good for
springing on folks not familiar with SF from that era.

And they aren't bad reading as long as you realized that the worlds are
as much "characters" as the sophonts.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:29:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:29:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20403.204017.2N3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at
> doorlocks etc...
>
> How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior is
> exposed to Vacuum?
>
> Not many...
>
> Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by
> being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a recording
> being played over radio)
>
> I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices
> relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad ID
> number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the
> card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you
> have access to your account.

Actually, even *now* there exist systems that use an access card that
you merely have to have on your person, not even in sight.

Basicly, the access mechanism sends a bunch of different frequency
radio signals out and the card resonates at a set of them that
consitutute the access code. Purely passive, no power required in the
card. 

If this was common, you'd have a "switch" to disable the resonance, so
folks couldn't read your codes as you walked by (then again, if you've
got more than one card, they won't know which frequencies go with which
card :-)

This would be good for stuff that needs to work while you are suited. 

Add simple PIN codes to deal with stolen cards and you are doing pretty
good. 

And at the higher frequencies you could have thousands of discrete
frequencies with a code consisting a few dozen or two. That's make
trying to "pick" the lock problematic. Not impossible, just time
consuming.

Especially if it has "traps" like frequencies that are *never* used by
the cards, and thus indicate a possible attempt to pick the lock. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
Message-ID: <AA-FD46A220263513E872C2C5D66B592F00-ZZ@homebase1.prodigy.net>

Same idea, but the one I'm looking for was at *least* 
a 40 footer...

Jesse


--- Original Message ---
From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing 
Yachts

>Check out http://www.windrocket.com/index.html.
>
>WKH
>
>JDEGRAFF@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
>> Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I 
remembered
>> seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat
>> that had not a conventional sail, but basically an
>> airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been 
Google'ing
>> around trying to find information and pictures about
>> this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know 
more
>> info about this boat or have any links?
>>
>> Jesse
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TML mailing list
>> TML@travellercentral.com
>> 
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
Message-ID: <AA-859664D2580835FD9C720DB5289F1E5A-ZZ@homebase1.prodigy.net>

THAT'S what I was looking for!  Thanks!  It's 
unfortunate that the pics are so small, but oh 
well :)  I tried about 15-20 different thing when 
looking for the bloody thing, but "wingsail" wasn't 
one of them.  "Wing sail" WAS one of them but I likely 
didn't dig deep enough.

Thanks again!
Jesse

<snip JR Holmes' work>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] If the TML seems sluggish...
Message-ID: <B8D13B56.3730F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

If the TML seems sluggish it's probably because I am in the process of
converting old mail archives to the new online archive format.

I expect to recover all archives back to mid 2001 without difficulty.

I've been looking over the archives from the past (back to 1995) and
converting them may take quite a bit of work.

I hope to be able to convert all existing TML (and XBOAT) archives into the
new format.  I may need to tap into some skilled brainpower of the TML.
Stay tuned.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:36:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:36:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Kians
Message-ID: <d8.15e7e500.29dd568a@aol.com>

--part1_d8.15e7e500.29dd568a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>     Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
>kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
>pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
>Cavalry.
>     Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?

  JTAS #9, per the "JTAS Index" from Jim V., posted 1 Mar 2002?

   Hey,
   Stats for these Tauntaun knock-offs were also provided in The Best of the 
Journal #3 (which I'm reading right now). 
   Says here they're large, plains-dwelling, herbivore grazers that travel in 
herds. Originally from Prilissa/Trin's Veil, but are exported, and now a 
common sight Coreward.
   Extremely good eyesight and hearing. Eat 30-50kg plant matter/day.
   Can carry up to 250kg comfortably. If overloaded, it'll refuse to move.

   (CT Stats follow)   
#       Type       Wt        Hits     Armor   Wounds & Weapons
10-60 Grazer     400kg   25/10   jack      10   Hooves  A9  F4  S3

   -Ken Murphy- 
   

--part1_d8.15e7e500.29dd568a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
<BR>&gt;kian hails from? &nbsp;I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
<BR>&gt;pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
<BR>&gt;Cavalry.
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;JTAS #9, per the "JTAS Index" from Jim V., posted 1 Mar 2002?
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Hey,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Stats for these Tauntaun knock-offs were also provided in The Best of the Journal #3 (which I'm reading right now). 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Says here they're large, plains-dwelling, herbivore grazers that travel in herds. Originally from Prilissa/Trin's Veil, but are exported, and now a common sight Coreward.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Extremely good eyesight and hearing. Eat 30-50kg plant matter/day.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Can carry up to 250kg comfortably. If overloaded, it'll refuse to move.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;(CT Stats follow) &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR># &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Type &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Wt &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hits &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Armor &nbsp;&nbsp;Wounds &amp; Weapons
<BR>10-60 Grazer &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;400kg &nbsp;&nbsp;25/10 &nbsp;&nbsp;jack &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;10 &nbsp;&nbsp;Hooves &nbsp;A9 &nbsp;F4 &nbsp;S3
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;-Ken Murphy- 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_d8.15e7e500.29dd568a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:37:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:37:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403231032.00ab9320@pop.wizard.net>

>You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the
>stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to
>get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments
>to try and offset this sort of risk?
>
>Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?

People familiar with the market can _always_ fleece someone in the public, 
in fact that's generally what they are doing at any given moment.  At least 
in the good ol' US of A.  (I was a stockbroker in one of my former lives.)

Pretty standard options contracts should cover it.  The same ones that are 
traded now.  Plus you could do other things to try to hedge.  But, except 
in very extraordinary and usually fleeting situations, you won't be able to 
completely eliminate your risk unless you are also willing to eliminate 
your potential profit.

What a lot of people never realize about options, is the contracts are 
_not_ issued by the company that you're trading in, they have nothing to do 
with it.  And in fact, a lot of people have trouble understanding that when 
they buy shares of a stock, they (usually) are not buying the shares 
directly from the company, except in initial public offerings when a 
company goes from privately held to publicly held.  After the IPO, the 
members of the public who bought the shares will sell them to other members 
of the public from time to time, and they in turn may sell them to others, 
and so on and on.  When you buy a stock that is traded on an exchange, 
you're buying it from another investor just like you (or maybe not so much 
like you, heh) and the two of you are basically negotiating a bet on how 
much you each think the shares will be worth in the future.  I sell IBM at 
70 because I think the shares are going in the crapper, and you buy it at 
70 because you think the next annual report will spark investor 
confidence.  In other words, it's all just legalized gambling where people 
bet on what the mob psychology is going to be.

Now that we have that crude primer out of the way for people who are less 
acquianted with the fundamentals.

Stock exchanges on 21st century Terra all get information as soon as 
everybody else in existence get it.  It's a globally connected world, and 
valuable information moves at lightning speed.  There is nobody off world, 
so they don't need worry about a time delay.  Unless you count shuttle or 
space station personnel, and their time delay is neglible for purposes of 
this discussion.  So, everyone who is negotiating a bet on what the value 
of stock in Thingie Corp at this particular microsecond is theoretically 
party to the same information that the person on their side of their 
negotiation is.

If you send some of the people who trade in the stock off to a different 
planet, and it takes basically a week for information from this planet to 
reach that planet, then the smart thing to do is create an exchange on that 
far away planet where people there can trade the stock.  All the people at 
the faraway planet are theoretically party to new and relevant information 
at the same time as the rest of the folks at that planet.

In practice, this may not always be true.  Jump times are approximately one 
week, but depending on the dice and the quality of your ship's navigator 
you may make the journey roughly a day faster or a day slower.  If you can 
manage to reach Glisten from Regina a day sooner than anyone else who left 
Regina the same time you did, then you have one day during which you know 
something they don't know.

If the local exchange(s) at Glisten are trading in Regina FunCorp, ILC then 
they'll all be sharing the same stale, weeks-old news, and their trading 
decisions will be based on that news.  If you just happen to reach Glisten 
a day early, and you just happen to know that Regina FunCorp announced 
moments before you left that their CEO is being fired for malfeasance, 
there is a Regina Justice Department investigation into major auditing 
irregularities, and their comptroller just committed suicide when he 
received a subpoena, then you have an opportunity to short the hell out of 
Regina FunCorp on Glisten at prices the locals are probably willing to give 
you but wouldn't dream of if they knew the latest news.

In other words, each world with significant levels of commerce will almost 
certainly have its own stock exchange and shares traded elsewhere in the 
Imperium (or outside it, in many cases) may also be traded there.  It 
doesn't guarantee they _will_ be traded there.  Only if there's sufficient 
interest on Glisten in that particular issue will it be listed for trading 
there.  Whoever runs the exchange on Glisten will probably have regulations 
about how many shares must be registered to owners in system, how many 
shares must trade in any given day, etc.  If an issue doesn't live up to 
those minimum standards, the exchange's owners or regulators will delist it 
and you'll have to find somebody else to buy from you or sell to you.

And the person who just arrived a day ahead of schedule from Regina can 
make a killing on Glisten in Regina FunCorp speculation.  If RFC is listed, 
and if there are enough people willing to buy from him during that given 
day, and if he has the funds or credit to do what he is trying to do.

Bear in mind that if someone just arrived in system and they suddenly go as 
wild as they can buying or selling a particular stock, then that by itself 
will affect the stock.  Any time a seller drives up trading volume in one 
issue by 50% above normal, that's going to make a big difference.

In other words, if Bill Gates decided to actually start selling all his 
Microsoft shares one day, he'd drive Microsoft's price down into the 
gutter.  Even if nobody knew all those shares suddenly on the market 
belonged to an insider, it would just be a huge supply and demand 
imbalance.  And Gates would discover that people who reckon his net worth 
on paper are living in a very theoretical world.  He'd still be rich as the 
devil, but not nearly as rich people say he is.  Because people do say he 
is richer than the devil, you know.

Keeping all the above in mind, and keeping in mind that many exchanges on 
different planets will have reciprocal arrangements to ensure they're 
regulated virtually identically but many other exchanges will fly by night 
if they feel like it, there will be plenty of incentive for someone who 
trades in shares on an interstellar basis to get their news sooner than 
everyone else.  So there will be classes of people continually jumping 
ships between financial centers in hopes of getting to the destination a 
few hours before everyone else and keeping key information to 
themselves.  The really big brokerage firms will probably maintain their 
own fleets that do nothing but jump and then beam info by laser at the 
destination system while collecting beamed info from that system then 
jumping back.  Or they will pay an outside contractor to do that.  Or they 
will make it very well known to navigators and captains everywhere that 
they pay a bounty for such information.  There may even be cowboy operators 
who speculatively jump back and forth trying to be that first person to 
arrive with the news.  And a good navigator should command very rewarding 
compensation if he hires on with people like this.

Done babbling now.  Comments?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:38:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:38:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FE@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404040632.00aba320@pop.wizard.net>

>Kindest Sophont Laning,
>Regarding your RFP for a "modest", helicopter (how quaint!) equipped 
>motoryacht,
>are you looking for something in an expedition style yacht
>[http://www.yachtworld.com/expeditionyachts/expeditionyachts_3.html], 
>something
>classical [http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/], or something a little more
>aggressive looking? [http://www.newzealandyachts.com/].
>
>Best Regards,
>David Phoenecius
>Blackmoore Heavy Industries

Dear Sophont Phoenecius,

In regards your kind inquiry via recent Xmessage, please accept my grateful 
thanks for your interest.  After perusing the three styles you've 
indicated, the one that seems most attractive was that quaint and slightly 
aging, but gracefully appointed and impeccably maintained Britannia 
item.  It will need some refitting for the helipad and hangar, but I'm sure 
your reknowned naval architects will be able to devise something that 
remains true to the elegant yet relaxed Old World ambience one has such a 
difficult time finding these days.

Although it's former notoriety as a "ship of state" for some monarch on the 
Solomani Rim may lend it an air of gaucheness in some sophont's eyes, I 
prefer seeing it as imbuing this storied floating getaway with character 
and history, however local in nature.

In closing, please have your sophonts contact my sophonts and instruct them 
on the administrative details necessary to transfer funds via xboat.  My 
seneschal will pass on to me any recommendations you make regarding place 
and date of delivery, and I will consider them in the most favorable light 
as I've the utmost of trust in your judgment.

Long live Emperor Strephon,

Laning, His Grace, Duke of So Many Places He Doesn't Bother To Count Them 
Anymore


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:39:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:39:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404041749.00ab8ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn pointed out:
>Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?
>
>http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html
>
>Now that's what I am talking about.
>--


Oh my.  Speaking of Captain Nemo.  And what would Freud say?  I think 
that's actually relevant in this instance, because if anyone goes that far 
out of their way to have this thing, then it isn't "just a cigar".

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <20020403.170340.-179719.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404042049.00abc060@pop.wizard.net>

>
>Why not just take Catalina Island off the Southern California's Long
>Beach coast.

The thought has crossed my mind.  And Dashiell Hammett set one of his more 
daring, but lesser, stories there before the War.  Which has been copied in 
various films at least every ten years since then.  It makes for an 
interesting Traveller scenario, no matter which exact setting you translate 
it to.

The basic idea is robbers with grandiose visions take over at gunpoint the 
entire play resort of high rollers and the rich for one night, stripping 
everyone there of anything valuable, then escape into the night by 
boat.  They're tough, combat veterans, equipped with Thompson submachine 
guns and grenades as part of their arsenal.  I think.  Haven't read the 
story for at least twenty years.  At the time of the story, Catalina was 
home to one of the most heavily trafficked casinos that Americans frequented.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:40:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:40:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani Rim data errors?
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020403080940.027e7b68@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000201c1dbc2$54800920$fc00a8c0@imogen>

I've noticed some apparent anomalies in the  electronic  versions
of  the  Solomani  Rim.   These  anomalies  seem  to  have   been
replicated across multiple formats:

- Doug's World website (data.xls)
- Heaven&Earth (Solomani_Rim.HES)
- TR Tools (solomani.uwp)
- World Builders Deluxe (Solomani_Rim.WBS)
- ? (solomani.sdf)

... possibly others.

These anomalies are:
- 0606 Ishadar ... has a "KO" (kay-oh) star, this should be "K0" (kay-zero)
- 1901 Eshellim ... has a "VII" size star, this should be "D"
- 2205 Ikaakur ... has a "K3 IV" star, this should be "K0 IV"
- 2222 Ninkhur Sagga ... lacks any stellar data, and also lacks PBG codes

Any comments, disagreements, or the missing data for Ninkhur Sagga?

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:41:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:41:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
In-Reply-To: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404042713.00abaec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 10:38 PM 4/3/02 -0500, Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered
>seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat
>that had not a conventional sail, but basically an
>airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing
>around trying to find information and pictures about
>this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more
>info about this boat or have any links?
>
>Jesse

No.  But there is Cousteau's experimental "sail" boat.  Sort of a high-tech 
windmill that looks like a cross between a barber's pole, a maypole, a 
mast, and a sail.  I believe it drives a motor that drives a propulsion 
system.  Or is the motor.  I never have found out.  It should be easy to 
track down with Google.

Also, it makes a suitably outre and science-fictiony gizmo to place on some 
world's oceans so the your travellers get that sense of the new and alien, 
and living in the future.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:42:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:42:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Biochemistry (was : How common is advanced life?)
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOIEBACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Jens Rydholm wrote :-
> I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might
> look under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary
> after a while.
"Advanced" = multicellular, right?

> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life
> might function using radically different biochemistries?
Some of Ike Asimov's stuff can be summarised like this :-

Mean Envt.
Temperature   Biomolecules               Solvent
>150 C        Fluorinated silicones      Molten sulphur
-20 to 150 C  The stuff we're made of    Water
<-259C        Substituted lipids         Liquid hydrogen

As for what critters look like, that's a complex function of niche,
environment, and random selective factors (e.g. mass extinctions).

There was a Xenobiology overview I posted to the TML a long time ago
which addressed some of these issues.

What particular points would you like amplified or discussed?


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:43:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:43:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <20020404095814.B46FA27A5B@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204041254070.2194-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Charles (CHam628781@aol.com) writes:
>webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>>>_H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
>>>mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
>>>reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
>>>but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
>>>
>>>[*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.
>>
>>Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are
>>interfertile.

I didn't say they were. I said that the Zhodani _claims_ that they are.
Erroneously, as it happens, but when have facts ever interfered with
political theories?

>Depends on what you mean by "interfertile" some species (including ones with
>differing numbers of chromosomes) can interbreed but not produce fertile
>young.

Interfertile for the purpose of establishing that two population groups
belong to the same species means 'capable of producing fertile offspring'.
(At least when you're talking about mammals).

>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk
>writes:
>
>>>Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
>>>ridiculous as well.
>>
>>No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H.
>>erectus_
>>and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
>>actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
>>it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
>>showing up as early as that.
>
>H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say
>I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H.
>sapiens back that far.

The book I got my information from was written in 1997, so I think it
qualifies for the term 'modern'. It's been returned to the library, so I
can't provide the name, but a web search of the tern 'archaic Homo
sapiens' provided me with 12 links, the first three of which either put
archaic Homo sapiens that far back or left the qustion open (I didn't
check the rest).

http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/ANTD15/Bill/multi-media.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#moderns

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html#C


>>But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
>>tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In
>>the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place
>>_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.
>
>True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are
>descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even
>more arrogant than they already are.

Whether it would be more interesting is debatable. And such a debate would
be moot, because that's not the way it is. Both Vilani and zhodani are
expressly said to be members of _H. sapiens_.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:43:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Oops
Message-ID: <PGNMAANMJKDGGCAA@angelfire.com>

Dear all,I was wondering if you could help me.

I'm going away for the weekend and don't want to crash my mail server. How do I go about suspending the list while I'm away?

Cheers
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem




Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:44:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:44:41 2002
Subject: [TML] (long) Re: inheritance Imperial style
References: <20020403181406.EE90627A4D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c1dbe6$52c83ca0$025d8690@computer>

> From: laning
> IIRC, the Albigensian Crusade was the first Crusade.

Bzzt.  Thank you for playing.  The first crusade ended in 1099.  I've
grabbed a couple of entries on the Albigensian Crusade from one of my handy
encyclopedia CDs.

OBTRAVs should be obvious enough.

Excerpts from The Oxford Interactive Encyclopedia:
Albigensians, followers of a form of the Cathar heresy; they took their name
from the town of Albi in Languedoc in southern France. There and in northern
Italy the sect acquired immense popularity. The movement was condemned at
the Council of Toulouse in 1119 and by the Third and Fourth Lateran councils
in 1179 and 1215, which opposed it not only as heretical but because it
threatened the family and the state. St Bernard and St Dominic were its
vigorous opponents. Between 1209 and 1228 the wars known as the Albigensian
Crusade were mounted, led principally by Simon de Montfort. By 1229 the
heretics were largely crushed and the Treaty of Meaux delivered most of
their territory to France.

Cathar (Greek katharos, 'pure'), a member of a medieval sect seeking to
achieve a life of great purity. Cathars believed in a 'dualist' heresy.
Their basic belief was that if God, being wholly good, had alone created the
world it would have been impossible for evil to exist within it, and that
another, diabolical, creative force must have taken part. They held that the
material world and all within it were irredeemably evil. The human body and
its appetites were despised. Marriage was rejected and suicide by starvation
was admired. A pure life was impossible to all but a very few called the
'perfect', and the rest--known simply as 'believers'--could live as they
wished. Salvation was assured if they took a form of confirmation known as
the 'consolamentum' before death. This ceremony was to be delayed as long as
possible to reduce the chance of the recipient's sinning further before he
or she died. The heresy originated in Bulgaria and appeared in western
Europe in the 1140s. In southern France this Christian heresy was called
Albigensianism.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:45:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:45:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
References: <20020403200103.CA19127A56@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c1dbe6$5218c2c0$025d8690@computer>

> From: "Rachel Kronick"
> I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists
> Table (UTT),

Hmm.  We'd probably want a bit of a framework to hang the Twists together.
It wouldn't have to be too complex - an introduction, set of "acts", climax
and conclusion structure would probably work.

Using stuff other people develop to provide surprise is a good idea too.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B8D1A48C.37332%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
Message-ID: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning expounds majestically on the value of information
<snip>

It almost sounds like there's the Imperial X-Boat, but a 
brokerage might run an x-boat to and from each system several 
times a day with the news and trading information. It still 
takes a week to get information, but it would be hard 
to "beat the boat".

It would make things more interesting if you had things 
arranged so that jumps took a week + or - some hours. Let's 
say that the modifier, as you suggested, would be the 
navigator's skill.  Therefore, we roll 2D6, - Nav.  If you 
roll a 7, that's exactly on time.  But if you roll higher, 
you are an hour late for each number higher.  And you are one 
hour earlier for each number lower.

Makes me think that a lot of navigators will get their 
training doing Imperial x-boat, and then change career to fly 
for a private broker or a merchant line that contracts to 
brokers.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Oops
In-Reply-To: <PGNMAANMJKDGGCAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <B8D1A906.37346%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 11:34 AM, Andrew Whincup at shanhat@angelfire.com wrote:

> Dear all,I was wondering if you could help me.
> 
> I'm going away for the weekend and don't want to crash my mail server. How do
> I go about suspending the list while I'm away?
> 

go to http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Log in and set "Disable Mail Delivery" to yes
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 07:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 07:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

My wife caught me working on the standard operating 
procedures/tips manual, and she asked what it was for. She's 
a technical writer, so she's attracted to large documents.

I told her that it was tips, and in large part, a standard 
operating procedure manual for Traveller parties.

She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000 
Certified?"
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 07:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu Apr  4 07:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404042049.00abc060@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020404152552.33017.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com>

--- laning <laning@wizard.net> wrote:
> 
> >
> >Why not just take Catalina Island off the Southern
> California's Long
> >Beach coast.
> 
> The thought has crossed my mind.  And Dashiell
> Hammett set one of his more 
> daring, but lesser, stories there before the War. 
> Which has been copied in 
> various films at least every ten years since then. 
> It makes for an 
> interesting Traveller scenario, no matter which
> exact setting you translate 
> it to.
> 
> The basic idea is robbers with grandiose visions
> take over at gunpoint the 
> entire play resort of high rollers and the rich for
> one night, stripping 
> everyone there of anything valuable, then escape
> into the night by 
> boat.  They're tough, combat veterans, equipped with
> Thompson submachine 
> guns and grenades as part of their arsenal.  I
> think.  Haven't read the 
> story for at least twenty years.  At the time of the
> story, Catalina was 
> home to one of the most heavily trafficked casinos
> that Americans frequented.
> 
> --Laning
> 
  >>
  AHA! So THAT's where Able Team #2(or was it 3?) came
from! I knew that wasn't an original idea......

 MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 07:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 07:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>

At 10:15 AM 4/4/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>My wife caught me working on the standard operating
>procedures/tips manual, and she asked what it was for. She's
>a technical writer, so she's attracted to large documents.
>I told her that it was tips, and in large part, a standard
>operating procedure manual for Traveller parties.
>She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
>Certified?"

I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor training.

Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.

"You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections & standards"

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence.  Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:13:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:13:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Hidden decks  was RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3604@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Paul Walker wrote:
Hey!  I used to work for Trinity before they spun away
from Halter Marine.
<snip cool story>

LOL!  That's pretty funny :)

I'll let the gearheads figure out what size densitometer would be needed to find something like that, and at what range they'd be able to do it from.  From a conceptual design standpoint, if you're trying to fool an on-board customs inspection team that doesn't have densitometers, I'd think about using a deck layout like the AHL.  Have one (or more) of the marked fuel decks be the hidden deck(s), with either no access from the lifts or surreptitious access.  Use a keycard in a reader hidden in the wall panel seams near your right toe or somesuch.

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
References: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c1dbf2$1d1b9500$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: economic crash


> laning expounds majestically on the value of information
> <snip>
>
> It almost sounds like there's the Imperial X-Boat, but a
> brokerage might run an x-boat to and from each system several
> times a day with the news and trading information. It still
> takes a week to get information, but it would be hard
> to "beat the boat".
>
> It would make things more interesting if you had things
> arranged so that jumps took a week + or - some hours. Let's
> say that the modifier, as you suggested, would be the
> navigator's skill.  Therefore, we roll 2D6, - Nav.  If you
> roll a 7, that's exactly on time.  But if you roll higher,
> you are an hour late for each number higher.  And you are one
> hour earlier for each number lower.
>
> Makes me think that a lot of navigators will get their
> training doing Imperial x-boat, and then change career to fly
> for a private broker or a merchant line that contracts to
> brokers.

This would work well IMTU.

IMTU if two ships were within a few hundred km of each other, and both
Jumped at the same time with their exit point again being within a few
hundred km of each other, you would roll the dice for the Jump duration once
and apply the result to both ships. They would emerge from jump at almost
exactly the same time. The variance would be on the order of a few seconds
to a couple of minutes at most.

If they were both to immediately return to their starting points, you would
again make a single jump duration roll and apply it to both ships. Note that
the first jump might take 6.5 days the second might be 7.5. This is due to
the changes in Jumpspace due to the movement of large gravity wells in real
space. At the commencement of Jump the crew know exactly how long *that
particular jump* will take, and this same time will be taken by any other
vessels in the neighbourhood jumping to the same destination for the next
few hours or so. The next time that particular route is taken the roll will
give a different result as conditions have changed.

Now, using your proposed navigation roll, the Navigator becomes more
important, as he strives to shave a few hours off the duration by optimising
the route, skirting closer to intervening gravity wells. A cautious
navigator will add a few hours on as he gives potential hazards a wider
berth...

Perhaps the navigator could state the numbers of hours they wanted to
shorten or extend the jump by as a DM. on 2D 8+ to avoid potential misjump:
DM + 2*Navigator Skill, + Hours of extra Jump duration, - Hours of reduced
Jump Duration

So a Navigator with Skill 2 could add 2 Hours to the Rolled Jump duration
and be safe. A real Hotshot with  Nav-4 could trim 2 Hours of the jump time
and still be safe etc

The effect of a failed roll would be to roll on the misjump table with the
difference between the modified Nav roll and 8 as the DM on the misjump
table.

Another way to increase the utility of the Navigator is to let them
calculate the Jump duration given jumping now, in six hours, 12 hours etc.
Basically, let the navigator roll the duration in advance a number of times
equal to their Nav Skill. Each successive roll equates to the calculated
Jump duration from Here to There given Jumping Now, and successive six hour*
intervals later. It may well result that the fastest route through Jumpspace
occurs in 12 Hours time, and will get you there with 24 hours shorter jump
duration than those rolled for Now, Six hours, Eighteen hours etc. The
prudent Merchant would therefore wait 12 hours before Jumping, as he will
thus arrive in the destination system at least 12 hours earlier than jumping
now. The party in a hurry to get the Hell out of Dodge might prefer to Jump
now, despite a longer Jump duration, as incoming missiles make doing so
prudent...

To sum this up:

Skill       Advance Rolls
0            0. Only rolls upon Jump initiation to see how long this Jump is

1            1 Can see how long a Jump initiated now will take BEFORE
initiating Jump. May Wait Six hours* and                     try again for a
better result
2            2 Can see Jump duration if jump initiated Now and if initiated
in 6 hours* time.

3            3 As 2, but can see Now, 6 Hours*, and 12 Hour* durations

4            4 Now, 6*, 12*, 18*

etc

*Obviously, you can tweak the 6 hour thing to suit your own style... 4
hourly intervals may be just as good (or even better) gaming wise...

So a skilled Navigator can not only forecast better jump windows, they can
the try to shave time off those as well... "Beating the Boat" becomes a lot
more interesting =)

(Also, this 'a given jump takes a given duration if performed at a given
time' situation allows for Fleets to arrive as a coordinated unit, rather
than as a rag-tag of ships scattered over 2 days. Should cheer up the
military planners out there <g>)

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:15:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:15:54 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404082015.00ac34e0@mail.verizon.net>

Hi John,

Just remember, ISO-9000 is about demonstrating that you have a documented 
process, not that you follow it!  ;-)

Best regards,

Charles

At 10:15 AM 4/4/02 -0500, you wrote:
>My wife caught me working on the standard operating
>procedures/tips manual, and she asked what it was for. She's
>a technical writer, so she's attracted to large documents.
>
>I told her that it was tips, and in large part, a standard
>operating procedure manual for Traveller parties.
>
>She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
>Certified?"
>________________
>Do you think my being stronger and
>faster has anything to do with my
>muscles in this place?...Do you think
>that's air that you are breathing?
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:16:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:16:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Solomani Rim data errors?
Message-ID: <000201c1dbff$e448bc40$fc00a8c0@imogen>

Oops, just rechecked LBB 6 (Scouts) and I now think 2205 (Ikaakur)
should be "K3 V".

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:17:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:17:23 2002
Subject: [TML] More data errors?
Message-ID: <000301c1dbff$e508ff00$fc00a8c0@imogen>

I've now checked Alpha Crucis and Antares.  It appears  that  the
rule that K5-M9 is not available for size IV stars and  B0-F4  is
not available for size size VI stars (and in  both  cases  change
the size to V) has not been applied.  I suspect I'm going to find
this in most sectors.  Has anyone noticed this before?

Regards PLST



ALPHA CRUCIS SECTOR
===================
A0204 "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
A0806 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
B0309 "K4 IV" should be "K4 V"
B0606 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
D0310 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
E0103 "K3 IV" should be "K3 V"
E0207 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
E0408 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
E0602 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
E0704 "M5 IV" should be "M5 V"
F0307 "M2 IV" should be "M2 V"
F0402 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
F0506 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
F0510 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
F0710 "K6 IV" should be "K6 V"
G0108 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V" ... then swap the primary and companion
G0801 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
G0807 "M2 IV" should be "M2 V"
H0506 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
H0609 "K5 IV" should be "K5 V"
H0702 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
I0103 "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
J0203 "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
J0209 "K6 IV" should be "K6 V"
J0607 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
J0710 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
L0709 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
L0805 "M2 IV" should be "M2 V"
M0310 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
N0405 "K9 IV" should be "K9 V"
N0501 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
N0504 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
N0509 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
N0810 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
O0102 "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
O0703 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
O0709 "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
O0805 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"



ANTARES SECTOR
==============
A0507: "F3 VI" should be "F3 V"
A0602: "M9 IV" should be "M9 V"
A0801: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
B0708: "K5 IV" should be "K5 V"
C0204: "F0 VI" should be "F0 V"
C0401: "F1 VI" should be "F1 V"
C0801: "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
E0102: "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
E0105: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
F0302: "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
F0508: "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
F0610: "K9 IV" should be "K9 V"
G0108: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
G0803: "K1 IV" should be "K1 V"
I0105: "K6 IV" should be "K6 V"
J0305: "F4 VI" should be "F4 V"
J0605: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
J0608: "F0 VI" should be "F0 V"
L0108: "K2 IV" should be "K2 V"
M0207: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
M0402: "K2 IV" should be "K2 V"
M0706: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
M0707: "F0 VI" should be "F0 V"
N0306: "F1 VI" should be "F1 V"
O0107: "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
O0302: "F4 VI" should be "F4 V"
O0503: "F4 VI" should be "F4 V"
P0107: "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
P0205: "F3 VI" should be "F3 V"
P0502: "F1 VI" should be "F1 V"

(done)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
References: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1dbff$e6158d00$fc00a8c0@imogen>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
> stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
> get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
> to try and offset this sort of risk?

There are ways to avoid this.

First, rather than invest directly in one or other stock  instead
invest in a unit trust.  These are funds made up of a  basket  of
stocks, so if one collapsed suddenly your losses are cushioned by
the others in the fund.  A fund manger "on-site" then  trades  in
and out of any stocks on that exchange  based  on  circumstances.
His goal is to maximise the fund's performance ... which in  turn
attracts more investors.  Unless the fund manager is  incompetant
you shouldn't loose unless the whole exchange is in decline.

Second, you let your broker buy and sell on your behalf: you  can
give him instructions ranging from a  few  sentences  to  several
pages ... this is called a client  mandate  (where  you  are  the
client).  For example: a simple mandate might say "sell any stock
whose price drops below  the  purchase  price  and  reinvest  any
monies  (including  dividend  payments)   in   manufacturers   of
environmentally friendly products".

Check out StuffOnline ...
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol  and  in  the  Traveller
section you'll find a link called "Financial Markets".



> Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?

This is unlikely to happen for two reasons:

(1)  Financial markets are heavily regulated to prevent  fleecing
     ... it can still happen but those who try often face lengthy
     prison terms.

(2)  Brokers and other financial institutions  live  and  die  on
     reputation.  The last thing they  want  is  for  someone  to
     claim they did not  act  in  the  best  interests  of  their
     clients.  (Contrary to popular  belief  the  slogan  of  the
     London financial community is *not* "who dares wins", it  is
     "my word is my bond".)

A bank's  Compliance  Department  doesn't  just  investigate  any
anomalies reported, it will be pro-active and involve itself with
day-to-day business (like a QA department).



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:18:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:18:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Tugs, etc
Message-ID: <200204041934.DIV01979@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I haven't seen many designs for a "tug", a useful vessel for 
attaching to and moving other larger vessels.  Might also be 
useful for moving large asteroids that come in from the outer 
system and pose a hazard to navigation (or even to a planet).

Was just reading
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-space-
menace0404apr04.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnationworld%2Dheadlines

and had a mental picture of some bored tug crew getting 
orders to move out and push this piece of rock into the sun.

"What are you so excited about?  It's just another asteroid."
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:19:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:19:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <F115a0x5eceUXj0sZb00001399a@hotmail.com>

Texas Redshift <texasredshift@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > If the 'Alien' from the movie boarded my ship, <snip> Subsequent
> > events to be determined by the referee.  :->
>
>I liked the movie, but I always thought the crewmembers of the Nostromo had 
>way too much trouble getting their act together.

They had a lot of factors working against them.  Nothing
inside the ship was any kind of secureable except the computer
room, since no one was supposed to be aboard except
triple-cleared company employees.  They had a traitor in their
midst, and a secret agenda going on from their corporate masters.
A small group of wage-slave technicians running a cargo ship
were way out of their league, and had an appropriate casualty
rate.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:20:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:20:20 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <005e01c1dc0d$850509b0$c8d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

 "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
> >Certified?"
> 
> I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor training.
> 
> Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.
> 
> "You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections & standards"
>

Argh. Day job intrudes even here!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:21:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:21:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani Rim data errors?
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020403080940.027e7b68@192.168.0.1> <000201c1dbc2$54800920$fc00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <DAV457emxUgjtwxoJ9Y000140e6@hotmail.com>

Per Supplement 10 The Solomani Rim

Ninkhur Sagga    Sol 0602    BAA7769 D   Military Rule  G

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com

> - 2222 Ninkhur Sagga ... lacks any stellar data, and also lacks PBG codes
> 
> Any comments, disagreements, or the missing data for Ninkhur Sagga?
> 
> Regards PLST
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <005e01c1dc0d$850509b0$c8d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404162723.00a8aea0@urbin.net>

At 08:15 PM 4/4/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>  "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
> > >Certified?"
> > I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> > I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor training.
> > Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.
> > "You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections & standards"
>
>Argh. Day job intrudes even here!

Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.


----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"It is both foolish and wicked to teach the average man who is
not well off that some wrong or injustice has been done him,
and that he should hope for redress elsewhere than in his own
industry, honesty, and intelligence." -- Theodore Roosevelt,
"Review of Reviews", January 1897
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tugs, etc
Message-ID: <20020404.134744.-5683.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

John

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:34:11 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> I haven't seen many designs for a "tug", a useful vessel for 
> attaching to and moving other larger vessels.  Might also be 
> useful for moving large asteroids that come in from the outer 
> system and pose a hazard to navigation (or even to a planet).

I've adopted a couple of tugs from my Starwars flight sim games XWing and
Tie Fighter. None were used to tow large ships though. Their role was
transporting of various cargo containers, and crew. I designed both the
tugs and cargo containers with MT for MTU.  I also designed jump cargo
transports as well.

You're welcome to ask for them, and even correct flaws in my designing.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:02:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:02:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <200204041157.DIF02066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>

JTK quoted Laning and wrote:
> >Oh, if I do go Marine, how do you feel about my house rule
> >of substituting battle ax skill for cutlass skill as the
> >default Marine 'blade' weapon?
>
>I don't think that the battle axe is something that is
>readily laying around.  I have a hard enough time with the
>default "blade" being anything except bayonet, but that's me.
I'm copying this to the TML, because I think a lot of folks there might 
enjoy it.  :->

Classic Traveller says the default blade skill that Marines cascade to is 
Bayonet.  For reasons of tradition, esprit de corps, inspiring confidence 
in troops, and instilling the proper spirit of attack.  Same reasons that 
Marc Miller had to suffer through bayonet drills when he was in the Army 
even though the widespread opinion of the day was that bayonet training is 
obsolete.  In other words, I think the Traveller ruling is largely a 
product of the times during which it was written.

I like to think that the introduction of practical battle armor would 
change this equation, and it would make a very big impact on fighting in 
boarding actions.  Combat ranges will often be melee distance.  Opponents 
will all be wearing at least vacc suit for armor.  The Imperial Marines 
would have adjusted to this tactical requirement centuries ago, and a 
one-handed battle axe intended to puncture armor would be the default melee 
weapon.  For Marines.  Even if there is widespread opinion that boarding 
actions are rare.  For reasons of tradition, esprit de corps, inspiring 
confidence in troops, and instilling the proper spirit of attack, Imperial 
Marines take the practice very seriously.

Battle axes would be in abundant supply around Navy and Marine 
armories.  And, as you say, not exactly readily laying around anywhere 
else.  Except maybe in 'army surplus shops', a place where people usually 
like to buy militaria.  Also, every Marine recruiting office will have one 
proudly displayed on a wall plaque behind the OIC's or NCOIC's desk, 
crossed with a gauss rifle.  Both weapons very firmly attached to said 
plaque by lots of wiring.  The axe has probably never been sharpened.

There's also the apocryphal, but widely believed, tale of a legendary 
Imperial Marine.  During the Fourth Frontier War, Sergeant Alvin Horatio 
singlehandedly defended the hatchway leading onto his ship's bridge with 
nothing but battle dress and his battle axe for over three hours against 
literally hundreds of Sword Worlders who had boarded the ship.  Meanwhile, 
surviving bridge crew were working in their vacc suits behind him to repair 
control consoles and access antiboarding software routines.  They 
succeeded, and triggered the 'grav ping-pong' routine for the corridor 
outside their bridge.  Tellers of the tale differ over whether Sergeant 
Horatio survived or whether the grav ping-pong killed him along with the 
remainder of his foe.  All versions of the tale agree that he had slain 72 
of the enemy with his battle axe when the battle ended.  The enemy had to 
keep pulling back their corpses just to get enough room to attack him.  It 
is said that Sergeant Horatio originally came from a low tech level, low 
law level planet and grew up in a lumberjacking area.  'Horatio at the 
bridge' is a piece of lore that every Marine has embedded in them.

IMTU, the Imperial Marines replace crossed rifles with a 
rifle-crossed-with-battle-axe on their uniform and unit insignia.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017958207.9067.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> 
> I like to think that the introduction of practical battle armor would 
> change this equation, and it would make a very big impact on fighting in 
> boarding actions.  Combat ranges will often be melee distance.  Opponents 
> will all be wearing at least vacc suit for armor.  The Imperial Marines 
> would have adjusted to this tactical requirement centuries ago, and a 
> one-handed battle axe intended to puncture armor would be the default melee
>  weapon. 

There's one very important reason for the bayonet: it lets you have a melee
weapon while carrying a real weapon (a firearm) as well.  A battleaxe doesn't
do this.

A battleaxe, even with the strength of powered armor behind it, shouldn't have
much of a chance of penetrating any significant level of armor.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
Message-ID: <92.23b50a36.29de2962@aol.com>

--part1_92.23b50a36.29de2962_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk
>writes:
>
>>>Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
>>>ridiculous as well.
>>
>>No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H.
>>erectus_
>>and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
>>actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
>>it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
>>showing up as early as that.
>
>H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say
>I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H.
>sapiens back that far.

The book I got my information from was written in 1997, so I think it
qualifies for the term 'modern'. It's been returned to the library, so I
can't provide the name, but a web search of the tern 'archaic Homo
sapiens' provided me with 12 links, the first three of which either put
archaic Homo sapiens that far back or left the qustion open (I didn't
check the rest).

http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/ANTD15/Bill/multi-media.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#moderns

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html#C

Archaic H. sapiens is an interchangeable term for H. heidelbergensis. There 
are clear morphological differences between H. heidelbergensis and H. sapiens 
(and possibly behavioural differences) but the term archaic H. sapiens has 
not yet died out. You sometimes also see H. heidelbergensis called H. sapiens 
heidelbergensis and modern humans called H. sapiens sapiens.

Paleoanthropologists like a good fight about a name - see the current debate 
about H. ergaster / H. erectus for an example.

> 
> 
> >>But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
> >>tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. 
> In
> >>the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't 
> place
> >>_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.
> >
> >True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are
> >descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be 
> even
> >more arrogant than they already are.
> 
> Whether it would be more interesting is debatable. And such a debate would
> be moot, because that's not the way it is. Both Vilani and zhodani are
> expressly said to be members of _H. sapiens_.
> 
> 
> 
> Hans
> 

And Hivers are said not to use sound in their communication which is 
err...unlikely. Still as you say it's moot because it was written that way.


Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_92.23b50a36.29de2962_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2><BR>
&gt;In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk<BR>
&gt;writes:<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;ridiculous as well.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H.<BR>
&gt;&gt;erectus_<BR>
&gt;&gt;and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That<BR>
&gt;&gt;actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing<BR>
&gt;&gt;it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_<BR>
&gt;&gt;showing up as early as that.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say<BR>
&gt;I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H.<BR>
&gt;sapiens back that far.<BR>
<BR>
The book I got my information from was written in 1997, so I think it<BR>
qualifies for the term 'modern'. It's been returned to the library, so I<BR>
can't provide the name, but a web search of the tern 'archaic Homo<BR>
sapiens' provided me with 12 links, the first three of which either put<BR>
archaic Homo sapiens that far back or left the qustion open (I didn't<BR>
check the rest).<BR>
<BR>
http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/ANTD15/Bill/multi-media.html<BR>
<BR>
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#moderns<BR>
<BR>
http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html#C</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Archaic H. sapiens is an interchangeable term for H. heidelbergensis. There are clear morphological differences between H. heidelbergensis and H. sapiens (and possibly behavioural differences) but the term archaic H. sapiens has not yet died out. You sometimes also see H. heidelbergensis called H. sapiens heidelbergensis and modern humans called H. sapiens sapiens.<BR>
<BR>
Paleoanthropologists like a good fight about a name - see the current debate about H. ergaster / H. erectus for an example.<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt;But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up<BR>
&gt;&gt;tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In<BR>
&gt;&gt;the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place<BR>
&gt;&gt;_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are<BR>
&gt;descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even<BR>
&gt;more arrogant than they already are.<BR>
<BR>
Whether it would be more interesting is debatable. And such a debate would<BR>
be moot, because that's not the way it is. Both Vilani and zhodani are<BR>
expressly said to be members of _H. sapiens_.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hans<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
And Hivers are said not to use sound in their communication which is err...unlikely. Still as you say it's moot because it was written that way.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_92.23b50a36.29de2962_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404082015.00ac34e0@mail.verizon.net>
Greetings dear hearts.

ISO9000 can be described thus: -

1. Thou shalt have procedures.

2. Thou shalt follow thy procedures.

3. Thou shalt document that thou hast followed thy procedures.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (long) Re: inheritance Imperial style
In-Reply-To: <006b01c1dbe6$52c83ca0$025d8690@computer>
References: <20020403181406.EE90627A4D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404173305.02b226d0@pop.wizard.net>

Alan Bradley wrote:
> > From: laning
> > IIRC, the Albigensian Crusade was the first Crusade.
>
>Bzzt.  Thank you for playing.  The first crusade ended in 1099.  I've
>grabbed a couple of entries on the Albigensian Crusade from one of my handy
>encyclopedia CDs.
I stand corrected.  Thank you for so kindly pointing that out.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174015.02af68b0@pop.wizard.net>

>She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
>Certified?"

Oh god.  Please.  Never.  What a racket.

BTW, my wife is also a technical writer.  Small world.  :->

I'm afraid to open up the 50-page document you sent because it may put me 
hopeless behind on keeping up with the TML and two PBEM games.  But I 
promise to work on it soon.  The real problem is I will probably want to do 
far more than a trivial amount of work on it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:42:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:42:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <memo.258283@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
Question for JTK - is it too late to join in?

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:51:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:51:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017958207.9067.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174808.00a7d008@urbin.net>

At 02:10 PM 4/4/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>laning writes:
> > I like to think that the introduction of practical battle armor would
> > change this equation, and it would make a very big impact on fighting in
> > boarding actions.  Combat ranges will often be melee distance.  Opponents
> > will all be wearing at least vacc suit for armor.  The Imperial Marines
> > would have adjusted to this tactical requirement centuries ago, and a
> > one-handed battle axe intended to puncture armor would be the default melee
> >  weapon.
>There's one very important reason for the bayonet: it lets you have a melee
>weapon while carrying a real weapon (a firearm) as well.  A battleaxe doesn't
>do this.

The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF 
since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.


>A battleaxe, even with the strength of powered armor behind it, shouldn't have
>much of a chance of penetrating any significant level of armor.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:57:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:57:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174808.00a7d008@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:
> 
> The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF 
> since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.

Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a reference _since_ Lensman, though there
certainly was one in Lensman.  In any case, it hasn't been a 'staple' exactly.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:59:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (nellkyn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:59:15 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <001001c1dc2b$d13fac40$a6ecff3e@k5k9u6>

----- Original Message -----
From: Megan Robertson <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] more on the sop


> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404082015.00ac34e0@mail.verizon.net>
> Greetings dear hearts.
>
> ISO9000 can be described thus: -
>
> 1. Thou shalt have procedures.
>
> 2. Thou shalt follow thy procedures.
>
> 3. Thou shalt document that thou hast followed thy procedures.
>
> Hugs and kisses,
>
> Mexal.

Please stop it and make it go away! I've just suffered a BSI surveillance
visit today. Traveller is where I get away from the real world.

Obtrav
Would there be a standards institute in the 3I?
Would ISO 9000 appeal to the Vilani sense bureaucracy?

I for one, don't bloody care on either count.

Neil

Quality Manager by day.
TML Lurker by night.

>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:07:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:07:24 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <164.b94855a.29de3657@cs.com>

--part1_164.b94855a.29de3657_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Mark Urbin writes:


> Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.
> 
> 

Done that.

"My card..."
-------------------------------------

Ambrose Bartholomew Lovejoy
        Accountant-at-War

-------------------------------------

Doug Grimes

--part1_164.b94855a.29de3657_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Tahoma" LANG="0">Mark Urbin writes:
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Tahoma" LANG="0">
<BR>Done that.
<BR>
<BR>"My card..."
<BR>-------------------------------------
<BR>
<BR>Ambrose Bartholomew Lovejoy
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Accountant-at-War
<BR>
<BR>-------------------------------------
<BR>
<BR>Doug Grimes</FONT></HTML>

--part1_164.b94855a.29de3657_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404162723.00a8aea0@urbin.net>
References: <005e01c1dc0d$850509b0$c8d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174321.02af7ac0@pop.wizard.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
 >>>
Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.
<<<

Hm, it might be fun to turn that into a sort of elite super soldier/private 
cop gig.  Combine war fighting skills with investigative skills, and only 
the best of the best are able to do the job effectively.  They get paid 
ridiculously well to go to war zones and verify that everyone from the 
generals to the supply sergeants to the front-line unit leaders really are 
doing what they report they're doing.  They have to verify not only the 
accuracy of financial reports but also compliance with all the various 
regulations affecting mercenaries, including code of war stuff.

A silly idea, but makes for nice cinematic possibilities.

Oh, speaking of which.  I saw three movies in the last two days that might 
be of interest to RPGers.  'We Were Soldiers', 'Blade 2', and 'Resident 
Evil'.  I was surprised to see that my favorite of the three was 'Resident 
Evil'.  My short reviews follow.

'We Were Soldiers'  I was both disappointed and riveted at the same 
time.  Might provide some useful background and even plot ideas to a 
referee sending military units from a peaceful garrison life to a battle 
zone.  The garrison life it shows is a period and setting I'm very familiar 
with from my own childhood, and in some ways it was very convincing, but 
overall it was definitely the Hollywood version where star power counts for 
more than character development, historical accuracy, or anything 
else.  I'm going to try the book, which I suspect is about 100 times 
better.  Mel Gibson did his best but is about fifteen years too old for his 
part.

'Blade 2'  Even more gorily repulsive than I expected.  It's a shame that 
an impressively talented actor like Wesley Snipes only seems to be able to 
make such things.  And a shame to waste the ever-interesting Kris 
Kristofferson on something so vulgar.  He's a Rhodes scholar, and he's come 
to this?  Gaming referees and players alike may find that most of the plot 
twists can be seen coming from several kilometers away.  They did do a nice 
piece of writing when they rationalized a humans working for a vampire with 
the term 'familiar'.  Which was probably in the first 'Blade' but I forgot 
it.  If you're only there looking for source material, leave after the 
first five minutes that show scary high-tech vampires cum martial artists 
infiltrating the good guys' bat cave.  This included the vampires wearing 
insectoid-looking hoods and goggles.  When they'd speak to each other, I at 
first thought that their hoods/masks were doing encryption of their speech 
so it came out like a hissing sound, and presumably their hoods also 
included earphones with built-in decryption of incoming speech.  They were 
actually speaking in a foreign language, I guess.  But 
encrypting/decrypting speech is a cool idea.  Good guys and bad guys alike 
can say whatever they want to each other right in front of their 
enemies.  Just whisper into their built-in mikes.  I should probably go 
pitch this to law enforcement and the military now and see if I can make 
some money from it.  DARPA probably wants to throw money at me.  Oh, Snipes 
"cleverly" places a tiny explosive device on the back of the head of one of 
the vampires, so that he can ensure the vampire's cooperation.  This may 
have a very small interest as source material for gaming.

'Resident Evil'  Like 'Blade', it's a shame a talented actor like Milla 
Jovovich (and some of the rest of its cast) are only getting work in a 
superficial action adventure flick.  But this one has more creativity in 
its little finger than 'Blade' can ever accumulate even if it goes on for 
another twenty sequels.  If you've played the computer game it sprang from, 
then you probably already know the major plot twists, but I've never played 
it, so they were all new to me and mostly kept me guessing until the end, 
which was itself fairly predictable.  But it wasn't trying to be 
unpredictable, and it was fine.  It comes dangerously close for awhile to 
becoming just another "small band versus undead zombies" horror flick, with 
a few nice science fiction touches, but it rose above that.  Like almost 
all "science" fiction movies and a lot of writing, genetics and mutation 
are laughable.  But in context, the disbelief suspenders weren't stretched 
too far.  'Blade' had the exact same problem, but was a bigger strain on 
the suspenders.  'Resident Evil' could have used more character 
development, too, but it did better than most films of its genre at 
this.  Pacing was quite good, and most FX were competent to really 
interesting.  If this film had come out twenty years ago, it probably would 
have been seminal.  Much like 'Alien' was.  It may yet be influential in 
some ways.  This is the only one I've seen of the recent crop of movies 
developed from games.  I'm not nominating it for any Oscar categories that 
I can think of, but it's definitely worth viewing if you've any interest at 
all in this sort of thing.  And if you're a nonhomosexual male like me, 
there's plenty of eye candy for you.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C360B@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

<snip of Laning's movie reviews>

Regarding Resident Evil, it also had some interesting anti-hijack routines
masked as bio-hazard containment.  Particularly liked the system in the hall
leading to the Red Queen :D

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <B8D22554.3750B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Because I'm too lazy to figure this out myself (yeah, right!)

I am trying to converts old TML archives into a format that the new Mailman
archiver can use.  Here the problem.  When the messages were originally
saved, they were saved as digests with most of the header stripped of each
message.  The current header looks like this:


    Date: [day of week], [day] [month] [year] [time] [offset]
    From: Poster@domain.com <poster@domain.com>
    Subject: Subject

    [body of message]

    whitespace

    next header

I need to read the date and from lines and generate a new line and insert it
as the first line in the header so that the header looks like this:


    From poster@domain.com [day of week] [month] [day] [time] [year]
    Date: [day of week], [day] [month] [year] [time] [offset]
    From: Poster@domain.com <poster@domain.com>
    Subject: Subject

    [body of message]

    whitespace

    next header

if I can get a script to do this , it looks like we can recover all the TML
and Xboat archives back to 1995 and post them to the web.

Thanks, Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22554.3750B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8D22554.3750B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405100301.A22271@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> I need to read the date and from lines and generate a new line and insert it
> as the first line in the header so that the header looks like this:
> 
>     From poster@domain.com [day of week] [month] [day] [time] [year]
>     Date: [day of week], [day] [month] [year] [time] [offset]
>     From: Poster@domain.com <poster@domain.com>
[...]
> if I can get a script to do this , it looks like we can recover all the TML
> and Xboat archives back to 1995 and post them to the web.

What language would you like the script written in?  I should be able
to do it in Perl relatively easily, if that suits.  The only
difficulty might arise if the original headers don't *exactly* conform
to the format described.

If you send me a 100k or so sample of the archives, I will write a
script and test it out on the sample.  That way, I can check whether
any of the original headers deviate by lacking a comma in the date, or
a strangely formatted email address, or something.  I should have
a script that basically works by tomorrow.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204050006.DJD04253@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a 
>staple of SF since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.
>

Maybe I should re-read Triplanetary, and run a campaign with 
the big gun cruisers like the Chicago.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204050009.DJD04543@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

If I could have an example of both files, I'm sure I could 
write something, but it would be a Windows app.

I do this sort of thing all day long, mostly to pile things 
from spreadsheets and word documents into tables in Oracle.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <20020405100301.A22271@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B8D22C91.37518%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 4:03 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> What language would you like the script written in?  I should be able
> to do it in Perl relatively easily, if that suits.  The only
> difficulty might arise if the original headers don't *exactly* conform
> to the format described.
> 
> If you send me a 100k or so sample of the archives, I will write a
> script and test it out on the sample.  That way, I can check whether
> any of the original headers deviate by lacking a comma in the date, or
> a strangely formatted email address, or something.  I should have
> a script that basically works by tomorrow.

SAMPLE FOLLOWS:

####################################
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #999
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
Errors-To: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
Precedence: bulk


Traveller-digest       Monday, August 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 999



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: HEPlar lives!
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
OT but interesting Keith Bro. note
Re: Hudson-class Lander (GTL9)
Re: Low ship weight
Re: Grav deck plates.
Re: Low ship weight (and Grav Plates too)
Starship Combat Tweak
Re: Bureaucrats
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #998
Re: RE Squad Leader LONG
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Grav deck plates.
Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)
Off topic - Insulting Leonard
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)
Re: Slings and Outrageous Fortunes of War
Re: Andre Norton Followups...
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Cloning (was Hard Science)
BITS and delays in response
Re: The Heritage Trilogy
Re Slings

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: HEPlar lives!

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Well, how about "large" deep holes? :-)

As long as by 'large deep holes' you mean 'wider than it is deep' sure.  A
typical free trader would probably make a crater some 20-30m deep and
50-100m across.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:18:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Tom writes:

> > *cough*.  If you really want people toasting small cities with their
> > engines, go for it.  HEPlaR has a power output of roughly 15 megawatts
> > per  newton of thrust -- your average free trader, at something like 20
> > million  newtons thrust, generates the equiva
> > lent of a 50 kiloton nuclear weapon every second...
> 
> Just curious, but isn't this why most downports have landing pads separated
>  from living quarters?  Some of them with high earthwork walls? ...or am I
>  missing the point?

Yah, you're missing the point.  You have the equivalent of a strategic
nuclear weapon going off every time a ship lands or takes off, this will
destroy the landing field in a single landing (in fact, it will also tend to
destroy the ship) and destroy the entire port in short order.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:15:54 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: OT but interesting Keith Bro. note

Just thumbing through Cinescape magazine and noticed an article about a
new Dune novel. It's being written by Brian Herbert (son of Frank) and
Kevin J. Keith. Since this book (actually first of a trilogy) is a
prequel to the classics, it might have some further insight into the
classic Dunes Imperial politics, maybe fodder for 3I politics?
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:23:37 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hudson-class Lander (GTL9)

>> OK, OK, we'll play "Flight of the Valkyries" while we approach, "Will ye
>no
>> come back again" after we land.
>>
>
>Awwww, not "Flight"  It's been done to death, can't we have something
>original?


Isn't that *Ride* of the Valkyries?

Although I seem to remember that the direct translation is "The Valkyries"
so it might well be a cross-pond translation thing.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:29:09 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Low ship weight

>I read somewhere (I think it was an issue of Challenge) that if cargoes of
>greater than standard density (ie 1 ton per cubic meter) were carried, the
>ships performance should be re-calculated if it was likely to take the
ships
>mass over 15 tons per cubic meter.


Yep.

But then, I tend to recalculate the ship's performance every time we change
the cargo load, so I'm more twisted than most players.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:31:39 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Grav deck plates.

>But if you are along a wall (or the floor or ceiling) you'll *also*
>stay right there unless some force moves you.


Under AG you're pushing against the floor with enough force to accelerate
you upward at 1 gee, at least momentarily. Unless you can adjust that force
perfectly to match the decrease in AG (which you probably can't if it's
instantaneous and comes without warning) then you'll push yourself off.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:35:40 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Low ship weight (and Grav Plates too)

>Got me thinking:  Is 20 tonnes per displacement ton the maximum deck
>loading?


Even if it is then it's possible to build a specialised cradle to spread the
weight of particularly heavy cargoes. The maximum deck pressure wouldn't be
much of a problem for properly packaged and loaded freight, but it could be
if the players are trying to recover a relic grav tank or something....


>On a vaguely related thread, suppose you drop a huge cargo container onto
>you deck plate from a height of a few metres.  How much damage would it do?
>Would it screw up the grav plate?  (I ask purely from interest of course,
my
>character would never actually have done such a thing to her ship...)


Well, taking current ships and aircraft as a basis, that's would utterly
knacker your floor, probably requiring expensive repairs and maybe even
making a hole. A couple of metres is a long way to fall under 1g. The grav
plate? Well, I'd say that's pretty much up to the GM.


NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:31:26 -0500
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Starship Combat Tweak

First, I want to thank everyone who answered my Starship Combat
question.  All of you really made me think about the nature of starship
combat at very close ranges.  There were several thoughts that I
probably would not have come up with on my own (in fact, I know I
wouldn't have thought in some directions at all).

Thanks.

You've been a big help to my game.

I LOVE this freaking list.



RANGE MODS:

Anyway, I've simplified the thoughts, and I've come up with a simple
addition to CT starship combat.

I'm just adding two different range modifiers to the to hit throw.
These were derived from your comments and the two range modifiers
already printed in the CT rules.

Range to target 5,000 km or closer?     +2 DM

Range to target 2,000 km or closer?      +5 DM



HEX/RANGE BAND SIZE:

For the close ranges in this boarding scenario, I've changed the
hex/range band size to 1,000 km each.



LENGTH OF ROUND:

To coincide with the internal combat going on inside the ships, I'm
changing the starship combat round for this scenario to a 6 second
round--just like the personal combat round I'm using.

I'll probably run 3-5 rounds inside the ship, then 3-5 rounds outside,
keeping everything constant.



ROF:

Looking at T4's Starships book (imagine that!  I used it!), I see that
most lasers on small scale ships have an ROF of 10 (for the 10 minute T4
combat round).  With extra power, those all can easily be boosted to 100
ROF.

Doing the required math, those weapons will fire exactly once per 6
seconds (with the ROF 100 figure).

That's perfect.  In this very close range scenario I have, these two
ships carving away at each other should turn out to be a meatgrinder of
an encounter.

That's exactly what I want.

Thanks again, to all.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:37:30 -0700
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Bureaucrats

Of course, with your average group of PCs, this will last for about five
minutes before someone decides to show the offending bureacrat his "special
authorization", aka the business end of a firearm...



- --------------
Kelly St.Clair   "At last we will reveal our pants to the Jedi.  At last we
kellys@efn.org    will have revenge."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:40:52 -0700
From: "Mike Linsenmayer" <mlinsenmayer@symantec.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #998

Can someone send me a e-mail if they see this in the post...
Still having problems posting....
mlinsenmayer@symantec.com

I have some new artwork.. not good as Jesses though  ;)

http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace/art/picture-b.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:43:15 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: RE Squad Leader LONG

>>Note that lasers, can paint targets for guided munitions at darn near any
>>range in SL terms. (Unless you've got 16 boards stuck end to end. <grin>)
>
> Thus, if a squad can keep a LOS on a target, that target
> could be hit almost all the time at TL 9 (roll 11- on 2D?).


35 hits out of 36 with laser-guided munitions?

Are you American, by any chance? <g>

NB
- --
(Before y'all flame me - I'm kidding...)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:44:44 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

>> Just curious, but isn't this why most downports have landing pads
separated
>>  from living quarters?  Some of them with high earthwork walls? ...or am
I
>>  missing the point?
>
>Yah, you're missing the point.  You have the equivalent of a strategic
nuclear weapon going off every time a ship lands or takes off, this will
destroy the landing field in a single landing (in fact, it will also tend to
destroy the ship) and destroy the entire port in short order.


Indeed.

Which is why (okay, I use the TNE rules) I assume ships take off under
contra-grav (air bouyancy) and occasioanl low-thrust puffs from the engines
for directional control.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:52:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Nick Bradbeer writes:
 
> Indeed.
> 
> Which is why (okay, I use the TNE rules) I assume ships take off under
> contra-grav (air bouyancy) and occasioanl low-thrust puffs from the engines
> for directional control.

Oh, certainly, as long as you have ships with both CG and HEPlaR, and only
use HEPlaR in space, you're fine -- however, standard designs frequently
don't have contragravity.  HEPlaR is a fast way to commit suicide in any
sort of atmosphere, or near the ground.  Incidentally, contragravity is
capable of doing directional control without any use of thrust anyway.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:57:23 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

>Oh, certainly, as long as you have ships with both CG and HEPlaR, and only
use HEPlaR in space, you're fine -- however, standard designs frequently
don't have contragravity.  HEPlaR is a fast way to commit suicide in any
sort of atmosphere, or near the ground.  Incidentally, contragravity is
capable of doing directional control without any use of thrust anyway.


Well, every single ship in Brilliant Lances (that's all the classic designs)
has contra grav, except for the Lab Ship, Donosev, Chrysanthemum and Aurora.
All those four are unstreamlined, and thus not atmosphere-capable.


I thought CG could only change the magnitude of your gravitational vector
(ie reducing it by up to two orders of magnitude), not affect the direction
of it. If it can affect the vector's direction, has it not just become a
thruster plate?

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:07:52 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Grav deck plates.

At 01:03 AM 8/23/99 -0800, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
> > That was my solution in a (forgive me, I have sinned... I was young,
> > naive...) Star Trek game once.  After the bad guys transported to our
> > bridge.  Hold on to the console, and just flip the AG on and off.... as
> > everyone floats off the deck and then crashes back down.
>
>Not-so-silly question.
>
>Why would they "float off the deck"?
>
>Seriously, this is *the* single biggest error in damn near every movie,
>TV program and even *story* that deals with zero-g.
>
>If you are in the middle of a compartment in zero g, you'll stay there
>unless some force pulls or pushes you out of that location.
>
>But if you are along a wall (or the floor or ceiling) you'll *also*
>stay right there unless some force moves you.
>
>Removing gravity *won't* make you "float up". But your muscles mighgt
>push you off gently.

Well, at that particular moment, the bad guys (can't remember who they were
now...Cardassians maybe...)  had just transported aboard and were in the
process of running around the bridge disarming the crew, shouting at
people, and generally swaggering a lot (on second thought, maybe they were
Klingons...).  It seemed to me that chances were good that most of them
were in the process of taking a step as the gravity shut off, and would
thus be flung away from the floor.  Even those that were standing perfectly
still, would still automatically shift their weight when the gravity was
released and be unable to regain balance quickly enough to avoid falling.

IMHO, this would certainly not work against any Traveller combatants, who
are routinely trained for Zero-G operations, but remember that these were
_Star_Trek_ villains... And at least until Star Trek 6, there's been almost
no evidence that anyone in that world could fight in Zero-G.  Well, Spock
maybe....

           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
                          defend to the death your right to say it."
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
                                           -- Albert Einstein
for PGP public-key and
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:15:00 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)

Tascelt@aol.com posted:
>
>Damn it Jesse!!  Tim and I have been suggesting shirts to you for years and

>NOW your're going to do it?
>
>TAS

Ah, but *I* made a critical success roll on my Sucking Up skill.

;-)

David

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:01:45 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Off topic - Insulting Leonard

Phil Kitching wrote:

>Interesting.
>
>I thought asterisks represent bold or emphasis.
>
>Also that underscores represent underlining, which represents italics.

*Bold*

_Underline_

/Italic/

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Nick Bradbeer writes:
 
> I thought CG could only change the magnitude of your gravitational vector
> (ie reducing it by up to two orders of magnitude), not affect the direction
> of it. If it can affect the vector's direction, has it not just become a
> thruster plate?

Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only be
used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
local force of gravity.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:44:44 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

>> I thought CG could only change the magnitude of your gravitational vector
>> (ie reducing it by up to two orders of magnitude), not affect the
direction
>> of it. If it can affect the vector's direction, has it not just become a
>> thruster plate?
>
>Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only be
used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
local force of gravity.



Where does it say this? I only have access to CT and TNE canon.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:52:27 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)

Replying late to this thread, but I'd _dearly_ love to see:

 Scout base on Gas Giant Moon
 Starport Cover Outtake
 Empress Marava in port
 Highport with Free Trader



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:26:30 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Slings and Outrageous Fortunes of War

>Actually, it sounds more like a human powered trebuchet...


Yes, but they did exist..
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:17:52 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Andre Norton Followups...

>Also, you can go *nuts* trying to tie Norton's books together. I
>believe that Catseye (or one of the other books dealing with Forerunner
>artifacts) has a passing reference to the Caverns of Arzor. Which ties
>that book/series to the Hosteen Storm books. Only problem is, in the
>latter series, Earth has been rendered uninhabitable. Yet I can show
>links equally good to books like The Last Planet. :-)

The Last Planet was the ***first*** real book I ever read, as well as the
first novel and first science fiction book.  I've always imagined that the
books take place against a multi-millennium long background.  Humans
discover spaceflight by time mining the secret of spacetravel from Foreunner
technology. They start exploring space and colonizing. Eventually they meet
other races and eventually supplant them almost entirely. Over the centuries
the location of Earth is entirely forgotten, though the legend lives on.

If you figure that the stories are generally separated by centuries it's
much easier to accept the inconsistancie.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:41:31 -0700
From: Edward Swatschek <edjs@bitslayer.net>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

At 11:37 99/08/23 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
>gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only
>be used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
>local force of gravity.

This depends on the game system being used.  In TNE/FF&S, contragravity
simply reduced the gravitational vector over a specific volume by 99%.  In
an atmosphere, this might make the ship neutrally or positively buoyant,
but no thrust is involved - that would be provided by HEPlaR or some other
engine.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:05:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Edward Swatschek writes:

> This depends on the game system being used.  In TNE/FF&S, contragravity
> simply reduced the gravitational vector over a specific volume by 99%.  In
> an atmosphere, this might make the ship neutrally or positively buoyant,
> but no thrust is involved - that would be provided by HEPlaR or some other
> engine.
 
Um...wrong ;)  It provided 10-20% of gravitational force sideways in
TNE/FF&S.  In Striker it could provide any amount of sideways force.  I
don't know about T4 or MT.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:10:22 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Edward Swatschek wrote:
> 
> At 11:37 99/08/23 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> >Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
> >gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only
> >be used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
> >local force of gravity.
> 
> This depends on the game system being used.  In TNE/FF&S, contragravity
> simply reduced the gravitational vector over a specific volume by 99%.  In
> an atmosphere, this might make the ship neutrally or positively buoyant,
> but no thrust is involved - that would be provided by HEPlaR or some other
> engine.

In FF&S2, page 18 (gravitic vehicle design sequence):  "Most of the
force is directed parallel to the gravity field (straight up and down),
but a fraction of the lift is available to provide thrust."

This sentence is repeated almost verbatim on page 65, dealing with
thrust agencies.

Under "Reactionless Thrusters" (also page 65, FF&S2):
"...'Contragravity' at earlier tech levels can only interact with the
local gravitational field (and is hence limited to use near a planetary
surface)...."

Hope this helps....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:28:37 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com>
Subject: Re: Cloning (was Hard Science)

> Tom wrote:
> > Perhaps this is one of the reasons that cloning never took off big in the
> > 3I, Ziru Sirka, or Rule of Man.  Surely the nobility in all three Imperiums
> > wouldn't want an emperor/emperess to live forever even in cloned form.  The
> > Moot would never stand for it.  OTOH there were alot of emperors in the 3I
> > that were suceeded by assassination.  Maybe they were looking in to the
> > forbidden(?) science of cloning?
> 
> Well, other than Cleon the Mad, and Strephon the Clone, the rest of the
> Emperors who died by 'right of assasination' were all Barracks Emperors during
> the Civil War. They all died not for experimenting with cloning, but
> experimenting with crowning themselves Emperor.;-)

You're forgetting the Empress that Cleon The Not Wrapped Too Tight whacked.
<grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
                                                     Science-Fiction
Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:15:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS and delays in response

Hi all,

DISCLAIMER - Not an official statement on behalf of BITS, but an
explanation:

Some of you writing to us by email may have seen some delay in response
from BITS. Firstly, we aren't ignoring you! BITS is run by volunteers, and
at the moment we are pulling together the material for release at GenCon UK
99, preparing to run the trade stand, 3 RPGA tournaments and a number of
demonstrations, and dealing with real life(tm) (imminent fatherhood for
some people, major work projects etc). We only have a small active CORE
<grin> which means that time is being juggled.

At present, we have four books in the last stages of preparation (you've
seen 3 advertised here, ACQ being the fourth) plus three tournaments (which
require nearly the same effort), and we're also doing the usual newsletter,
2nd hand material and website...

Hopefully, once GenCon is out of the way things will calm down, and we'll
go through the non-urgent mails. if you need to contact someone at BITS
(bits@bits.org.uk) urgently, mark your subject line URGENT, or copy me (for
example). I hope to see some of you in the flesh at GenCon UK 99, maybe for
a drink at the bar, or a game at the stand or the demo area. FWIW we are
actually in two locations this year - in the trade hall, and running demos
in the balcony above (GURPS Traveller & T4 as the standards, but I'm sure
we'll get volunteers for CT, MT and TNE as ever). As ever, we're happy for
anyone who wants to volunteer to try their hand at running a game/demo.

All the best,

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
                       MiB - Marines in Battledress
   "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:22:13 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: The Heritage Trilogy

At 06:01 AM 8/23/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I started with the second one, Luna Marine. It's definitely a lot less
>jingoistic than the first, concentrating less on the UN as an evil empire
>and more on the ramifications of the "Hunters of Dawn". The "Hunters of
>Dawn" are dominate cultures that go around killing off lower tech cultures
>before they evolve enough technology to kill them. A very cool thought for a
>Traveller campaign.

Wasn't that the premise of Weber's Mutineer Moon/Armageddon inheritance
series as well?

           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
                          defend to the death your right to say it."
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
                                           -- Albert Einstein
for PGP public-key and
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:28:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Slings

>William F. Hostman wrote:
>>
>> A staff sling is essentially a hand sling on a 2m pole... and is not
>> twirled, but used exactly like an atlatl, only much easier to do
>> successfully.
>
>Actually, it sounds more like a human powered trebuchet...
>
Trebuchets keep a cup fixed to the end of the arm, and the cup remains open.

Staff slings: the sling's cup is attached by two lines (3-4 feet long is
good). One of these is fixed to the pole near the end. The other string is
terminated in a loop small enough not to fall past the first one's
fixation, but loose enough to fall off if you point the tip down. The start
position is with the staff parrallel tothe deck tip behind you, with a
loaded pocket.Generally, you then (rapidly) bring forward the staff til it
is roughly 45 degrees from parallel in front of you. The second loop lets
go normally about when you stop the swing, but the cup is lagging. When the
string lets go, several things happen, including putting a spin on the
projectile, converting that rotational velocity into linear velocity, and
also opening up the cup to actually let the projectile go.

The thing can be used while kneeling (I've done it). In a Short trench, two
guys could work it easily.

Oh, and just for reference, a golf ball can occasionally be sent  over 200
m in flat terrain by a practiced stafslinger.

William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click
interface!"
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-
533
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis
http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis    ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #999
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <200204050028.DJF00683@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I expect that there will be major revisions, and additions.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:29:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:29:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204050009.DJD04543@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 4:09 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> If I could have an example of both files, I'm sure I could
> write something, but it would be a Windows app.
> 

Repeat after me

windows = hell
Bill Gates = anitchrist

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bryn Monnery)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <182.62a974a.29dca666@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405015316.02b11020@pop.mail.yahoo.com>

At 13:39 03/04/02 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 02/04/02 22:58:51 GMT Daylight Time, 
>ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:
>
>
>>TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to 
>>He4.  One
>>assumes the neutron problems have been solved.
>
>
>Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing 
>"up" to He4 :)

Protium - Protium fusion (Protium = Hydrogen-1, Deuterium = Hydrogen-2, 
Tritium = Hydgrogen-3)

Bryn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:06:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:06:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod says that Microsoft and Bill Gates are evil
<snip>

Yes, but that's what my customers use.
I used to have my head in the sand, and only worked on OS/2 
and Solaris machines.

I was unemployed for quite a while.

Then, I started chanting

By the beans of Java
I set my mind in motion...

and did the Windows dance.  And said, "I like making Larry 
Ellison rich.  Everyone buy Oracle now."

Let's not mention that I like Smalltalk, Unix, and DB/2.

ObTrav:  There has to be a similar monopoly in Imperial 
space, and everyone would buy into it, even if it didn't work 
very well.  There have to be "standards", you know.  And it 
wouldn't be the best system, or language, or database, etc. 
It would be the one that had the most ruthless marketing.  
And no Imperial law would stop it.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
In-Reply-To: <3CAA76E1.BA4A2BC6@premier.net>
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>
 <p04330105b8d0233486e4@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA76E1.BA4A2BC6@premier.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b8d2ab0aa6d7@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:28 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
>"David P. Summers" wrote:
>>
>>  At 7:41 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
>>  >"David P. Summers" wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >>  In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
>>  >>  tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
>>  >>  arrays.....
>>  >
>>  >Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
>>  >masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....
>>
>>  But the tags would be unforgeable based on the penguins DNA!  Clearly
>>  this would be justified based on the threat that penguins pose.  (How
>>  could the Imperium  claim to control their territory if penguins roam
>>  free?)
>
>Then the penguins merely graft a patch of non-penguin-waterfowl skin and
>feathers to the tag attachment point (ideally waterfowl generally
>engaged as tramp freighters or system defense birds), change the tag
>code to suit the new DNA and proceed on their marauding ways.... ;-)
>
>The struggle between measure and countermeasure is a never-ending one,
>as neither side is likely to gain lasting superiority.

But the Imperium has so many ships that they could afford to have one 
sitting anyplace a penguin might threaten the public safety!
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMELMDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Bill doesn't rate higher than apostate or a false profit, tops

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

on 4/4/02 4:09 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> If I could have an example of both files, I'm sure I could
> write something, but it would be a Windows app.
>

Repeat after me

windows = hell
Bill Gates = anitchrist

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEELNDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Must be the company that makes the Anti-Hijacking software for CT. Or
whoever made fighter craft so impotent.

I want a PA barbette on my Mk V fighter! waaaah

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

ObTrav:  There has to be a similar monopoly in Imperial
space, and everyone would buy into it, even if it didn't work
very well.  There have to be "standards", you know.  And it
wouldn't be the best system, or language, or database, etc.
It would be the one that had the most ruthless marketing.
And no Imperial law would stop it.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 18:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr  4 18:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204051011470.16403-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Tod:

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Repeat after me
>
> windows = hell
> Bill Gates = anitchrist

 Ah a man with similiar sentiments.

"Windows is not the answer. It is the problem. The answer is NO!"

"Window, just say NO!!"

 From your friendly Biased Commodore only user. <VBG>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 18:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr  4 18:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
References: <200204041157.DIF02066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404185037.009f1170@mindspring.com>

At 05:04 PM 4/4/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Classic Traveller says the default blade skill that Marines cascade to is 
>Bayonet.  For reasons of tradition, esprit de corps, inspiring confidence 
>in troops, and instilling the proper spirit of attack.  Same reasons that 
>Marc Miller had to suffer through bayonet drills when he was in the Army 
>even though the widespread opinion of the day was that bayonet training is 
>obsolete.

Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while 
desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to 
perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 19:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 19:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174808.00a7d008@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404215235.01f48c40@192.168.0.1>

At 02:56 PM 4/4/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Mark Urbin writes:
> >
> > The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF
> > since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.
>
>Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a reference _since_ Lensman, though 
>there
>certainly was one in Lensman.  In any case, it hasn't been a 'staple' exactly.

Ok, I stand corrected.  It's been around since Lensmen, and it *should* be 
a staple of SF. :-)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 19:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 19:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404185037.009f1170@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 6:52 PM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while
> desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to
> perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.
> 

In point of fact, the bayonet is more of a hazard to the soldier than an
aide.  During the last war for which we have statistics (Vietnam), more
soldiers injured themselves with bayonets than were injured by enemy
bayonets.  This is also true of WWII.

Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary weapon of the
infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  number of wounds caused by
bayonets was extremely small.

The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed civilians.  It has little or
no military application, contrary to popular mythos.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 19:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr  4 19:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
References: <200204041157.DIF02066@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020404185037.009f1170@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c1dc54$e81469a0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Berry" <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while
> desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to
> perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.

Tell that to the British Para's...

The don't seem to feel a war is a war until they have done at least one
Bayonet Charge...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <20020405003207.32532279F6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CAD22FC.313506AE@earthlink.net>

Walt Smith posted:
> 
> They had a lot of factors working against them.  Nothing
> inside the ship was any kind of secureable except the computer
> room, since no one was supposed to be aboard except
> triple-cleared company employees.  They had a traitor in their
> midst, and a secret agenda going on from their corporate masters.
> A small group of wage-slave technicians running a cargo ship
> were way out of their league, and had an appropriate casualty
> rate.

And how would you rate the Colonial Marine unit in "Aliens"?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>

I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler
had a Derringer attached to some kind of mechanical
"holster". The device was worn somehow on the forearm
and pushed the gun into the hand.

Can anyone tell me what this device was and where
I could find details on it?


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404231607.01f78e88@192.168.0.1>

At 10:13 PM 4/4/2002 -0600, David Smart wrote:
>I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler
>had a Derringer attached to some kind of mechanical
>"holster". The device was worn somehow on the forearm
>and pushed the gun into the hand.
>Can anyone tell me what this device was and where
>I could find details on it?

Secret Service Agent James West (Wild Wild West TV show) had one too.
They loved gadgets on that show.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404231607.01f78e88@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000501c1dc5d$168ea180$2f7de40c@loki>

At 10:13 PM 4/4/2002 -0600, David Smart wrote:
>I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler

All I found are references to 'spring-loaded arm rigs' and a lot of fan
fiction to the Magnificent Seven in my google search.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B8D28F8B.37603%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405024811.02b7a0e0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon says:
>Makes me think that a lot of navigators will get their
>training doing Imperial x-boat, and then change career to fly
>for a private broker or a merchant line that contracts to
>brokers.

Nice touch it.  I'll use it.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Navigator skill affecting jump duration & accuracy (was Re:
 economic crash)
In-Reply-To: <002d01c1dbf2$1d1b9500$52200050@matt>
References: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405024958.02b7bec0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon suggested a rule for dicing precise jump duration in plus or 
minus hours from the nominal of precisely seven days.

My memory of the 'Starship Operators Manual' from DGP isn't detailed 
enough, but they had rules on this that I really liked.  It started to give 
Navigation skill a useful purpose besides making sure somebody aboard had 
at least one level of it.  Sadly, my copy of SOP is among my trove of 
mislaid Favorite Traveller References that _still_ evades detection.  If 
only I could offer the other inanimate objects in my house a bounty for 
dropping a dime on the missing trove.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C360B@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405025738.02b7da30@pop.wizard.net>

At 03:34 PM 4/4/02 -0800, you wrote:
><snip of Laning's movie reviews>
>
>Regarding Resident Evil, it also had some interesting anti-hijack routines
>masked as bio-hazard containment.  Particularly liked the system in the hall
>leading to the Red Queen :D
>
>Jesse

Yeah, that was medieval.  In an extremely high tech way.  I think 'Resident 
Evil' has quite a bit of useful source material for RPGs, but I didn't want 
to get into spoilers.

Oh.  Jesse, my wife and I both loved the Britannia site, thanks.  The 
interior shots are all _perfect_ for use to illustrate a Traveller yacht 
(well, maybe not the bridge interior, lol).  I am completely unskilled at 
doing such things but I thought it would be great to take the ones with 
portholes and show stars or a planet from low orbit or something outside.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 00:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Fri Apr  5 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c1dc7a$655e8a60$f000a8c0@imogen>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor
> training.

I used to work a a company that tried for (and got) ISO 9000/9001
certification: it was easy-peasy!

1) Have a documented procedure for everything
2) Make sure all staff know where the latest  versions  of  those
   documents are (ie. where on the PC server)

The fact that we didn't actually follow those  procedures  (close
scrutiny would have revealed they were unworkable anyhow)  didn't
seem to matter.

Its just a case of understanding the game.



> Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.
> 
> "You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections &
> standards"

Make a "saving throw" against Admin skill to understand the  game
and avoid any significant impediments.  In MT terms ...



    To comply with local business standards.
    Routine, Admin and EDU, 1 hour (safe)

    Referee: If not familiar with local customs (ie. offworlders)
             then  increase  difficulty  to  Difficult.   Trading
             is limited until this task is passed successfully.




Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 00:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 00:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>

Any of you guys know Ruby?
http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/index.html

A guy I respect _very_ much is presently raving about it.
http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2001/10/25/ruby.html

It might as well be Sanskrit to me, I haven't looked at it at all.  But if 
Colin likes it, I like it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 00:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 00:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMELMDJAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>

BillGatus of Borg.  Bah.  I shake my head, bereft of words.

Anyway.  Back when I was doing tech support on the phones for AOL, I talked 
a guy about three times who would always pepper his conversation with how 
little respect he had for Gates, and "I knew that guy back when he went 
from user group to user group selling his stuff out of the back of a 
station wagon."  It was amusing as hell, though I didn't let that guy know 
I thought so or we would have got way off topic for a long time.  I hope 
you get a laugh out of that one.

ObTrav:  In the early 1100s, is there anyone who occupies a position 
analogous to Bill Gates in our own society today?  In terms of being 
notoriously rich and geeky and merciless and rich and reviled and admired 
and rich and ubiquitous and rich and not even Ministry of Justice bullets 
can stop him.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 04:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 04:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204051219.DKC00217@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary 
>weapon of the infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  
>number of wounds caused by bayonets was extremely small.
>

Bayonets were used successfully in the Falklands.

Also, if I find someone at the end of my bayonet, it's 
unlikely that they'll be "wounded".  It's equally unlikely 
that they'll make it to the aid station.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 04:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Fri Apr  5 04:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCMEEHDOAA.andy@exeus.com>

Try

	http://www.cia.gov/spy_fi/item21.html

and

	http://home.earthlink.net/~backslash/

They're called Sleeveguns and cost $295.

Andy Brick
andy@exeus.com
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.344 / Virus Database: 191 - Release Date: 02/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 04:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr  5 04:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B6C@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
> Sent: 05 April 2002 13:20
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
> 
> 
> Tod Glenn says
> >Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary 
> >weapon of the infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  
> >number of wounds caused by bayonets was extremely small.
> >
> 
> Bayonets were used successfully in the Falklands.

True, but the Bayonet Charge(s?) in the Falklands produced few
casualties from bayonet wounds. The principal aim of a bayonet charge is
to cause the flight or surrender of the defenders of a position. One of
the Argentinians on the receiveing end of the charge recounted in a
documentary some years later that as a 19 year old conscript the sight
of 40 or so strapping Para's charging at him with fixed bayonets,
screaming as they came, filled him with such terror that he couldn't
move... he was fixated on the fact that those guys coming at him wanted
to stick whacking great holes in him, up close and personal. As soon as
the initial terror subsided he (and now I can't recall exactly which)
either threw down his weapon and ran for his life, or threw down his
weapon and surrendered.

To quote Corporal Jones in Dad's Army... "Cold Steel, Sir. They don't
like it up 'em!"

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 05:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Fri Apr  5 05:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
References: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DAV33JYS74UiXodol1500008c87@hotmail.com>

Christian in Action has a picture of the sleeve gun assembly used by Bob
Conrad in Thee Wild, Wild West at

http://www.cia.gov/spy_fi/item21.html

The man who made the original prop was (is?) selling them to people sans
firearm.  His website at sleevegun.com is now under construction, but you
can see Google's cache of his site at

http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:_T42pJBhY0UC:sleevegun.com/+sleevegun&h
l=en&ie=UTF8

This site includes a picture of an arm rig.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com

> I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler
> had a Derringer attached to some kind of mechanical
> "holster". The device was worn somehow on the forearm
> and pushed the gun into the hand.
>
> Can anyone tell me what this device was and where
> I could find details on it?
>
>
> David
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 05:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr  5 05:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405134530.5456.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> Repeat after me
> 
> windows = hell
> Bill Gates = anitchrist

Although my Dante is rusty and my personal sentiments
don't agree...

"Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."

To Paraphrase...

"Better to trust your livlihood to Billy Bob's Window
World than to not make any living at all."

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 06:42:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri Apr  5 06:42:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
References: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt> <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se> <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt> <5.1.0.14.2.20020402201259.009ec960@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CADB846.8070706@gmx.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

 > At 07:40 PM 4/2/02 +0200, you wrote:
 >
 >> Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
 >> food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
 >> predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
 >> for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world
 >> under
 >> the ice.
 >
 >
 > Jedi Jellyfish Under The Ice!  I love it!
 >
 >
Yes...but they're probably easy meat for the Imperial Penguin Corps.

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump. 
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <F120FrbDLuPOuIGGsMq000028cf@hotmail.com>

From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>

     "I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler had a Derringer 
attached to some kind of mechanical "holster". The device was worn somehow 
on the forearm and pushed the gun into the hand."

     "Can anyone tell me what this device was and where I could find details 
on it?"


Mr. Smart,

     My admittedly brief Google search turned up little more than a lot of 
"Magnificent Seven" fan-fics.  Fiddling with the search words should bear 
fruit however.
     Another pop culture reference for such a device cn be found in 
Harrison's "Deathworld" trilogy.  The Pyrrhans(sp) are outfitted with a 
contraption that slams a very large, hair-triggered, pistol into their fists 
at the slightest twitch.  The hero, Jason din Alt mentions how learning to 
use the damn thing nearly breaks his hand.
     I've also seen gizmos tucked up one's sleeve that deliver playing 
cards.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <200204051219.DKC00217@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D2FF19.37640%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 4:19 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Bayonets were used successfully in the Falklands.

Define 'successfully'.  How many casualties were produced by bayonets?
> 
> Also, if I find someone at the end of my bayonet, it's
> unlikely that they'll be "wounded".  It's equally unlikely
> that they'll make it to the aid station.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3611@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Just to set things straight, it was John Groth that recommended the
Brittania site [tips Diet Pepsit to John <'cause it's too early for beer ;)
>]
Jesse

<snip>
Oh.  Jesse, my wife and I both loved the Britannia site, thanks.  The 
interior shots are all _perfect_ for use to illustrate a Traveller yacht 
(well, maybe not the bridge interior, lol).  I am completely unskilled at 
doing such things but I thought it would be great to take the ones with 
portholes and show stars or a planet from low orbit or something outside.

--Laning

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3cadc22c.4909163@post.demon.co.uk>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:

>The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed civilians.  It has little =
or
>no military application, contrary to popular mythos.

... I wouldn't go that far...  Firstly, bayonets were primarily a
_defensive_ weapon:  they stopped infantry being overrun and trampled
by cavalry.  ("Form square!")

Secondly, they *could* be the means by which infantry could turn an
indecisive firefight into a crushing rout of the enemy.
Unfortunately, bayonet charges like this only really worked if the
enemy was already weak and disorganised.  Against untrained native
levies in colonial warfare, bayonets were far more effective than
muskets.  They used less ammunition, too...  Unfortunately, that
tended to give those armies involved in colonial warfare an
over-inflated view of the benefits of the bayonet, which would be
disastrous once they faced the firepower of Western armies on a modern
battlefield.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <20020405134530.5456.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405074625.009ee8d0@mindspring.com>

At 05:45 AM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:

>Although my Dante is rusty and my personal sentiments
>don't agree...
>
>"Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."

That's Milton, from "Paradise Lost."

Dante's best line came from The Inferno... the inscription on the gates of 
Hell.

"I AM THE WAY INTO THE CITY OF WOE
I AM THE WAY TO A FORSAKEN PEOPLE
I AM THE WAY INTO ETERNAL SORROW

SACRED JUSTICE MOVED MY ARCHITECT
I WAS RAISED THERE BY DIVINE OMNIPOTENCE
PRIMORDIAL LOVE AND ULTIMATE INTELLECT.

ONLY THOSE ELEMENTS TIME CANNOT WEAR
WERE MADE BEFORE ME, AND BEYOND TIME I STAND.
ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."

I want that on the door to my gaming room.. :)

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <F120FrbDLuPOuIGGsMq000028cf@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405160321.61448.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>      Another pop culture reference for such a device
> cn be found in 
> Harrison's "Deathworld" trilogy.  The Pyrrhans(sp)
> are outfitted with a 
> contraption that slams a very large, hair-triggered,
> pistol into their fists 
> at the slightest twitch.  The hero, Jason din Alt
> mentions how learning to 
> use the damn thing nearly breaks his hand.

My favorite of this type is from the Alan Cole/Chris
Bunch _Sten_ series.  (Admittedly light scifi and
light reading, but as a diversion, I enjoyed it.) 

In any case, the protagonist, Sten, has a sheath
biologically implanted in his forearm.  The weapon is
grown crystals and form fitted to his hand.  The blade
tapers to molecular thickness.  A simple twitch and
the blade slides into his palm ready for use.

(Yes, I can hear the suspenders snapping/shattering,
but I did warn you that it was light scifi)

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405074625.009ee8d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020405161906.71131.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> That's Milton, from "Paradise Lost."

Thanks for the editing.  My classics are a bit rusty. 
That's what too much reading of Dr. Seuss does.


> Dante's best line came from The Inferno... the
...snippit...
> ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."
> 
> I want that on the door to my gaming room.. :)

When I play a Chief Engineer, I want it on the door to
engineering.  No need to lock it up, the passengers
will stay away without any security keeping them out. 
(Unless the passengers are Player Characters, then
Satan himself couldn't keep them from trying.)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051636.DKL02665@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

There was a Harry Harrison series of novels that also had an 
arm rig that figured prominently in the storyline.

IMHO, it looks bulky, uncomfortable, and likely to blow your 
fingers off. That, and the weapon that pops out is unlikely 
to do more than draw return fire (or put bullet holes in your 
computer at an inopportune moment). You've got maybe two 
shots, and the weapon is likely to be something weak.

If you're allowed to carry concealed, carry a regular 
pistol.  After all, even if the 9mm doesn't impress him with 
the first shot, I'm sure the remaining rounds in the magazine 
will.

That, and carry a second pistol somewhere else on the body 
for a NYPD "speedload".

ObTrav:  The easiest holdout to design would be a laser.  You 
could isolate the powerpack and electronics at some other 
location under the clothing, run a fiber optic cable to the 
hand area, contrive a trigger (ring pull?), and have the exit 
optics somewhere over the back of the hand.  If you made a 
fist, and curled the fist inward, the ring would pull the 
trigger and the beam would fire over the back of the hand.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204051641.DKL03427@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>Define 'successfully'.  How many casualties were produced by 
>bayonets?

If I win, I win. Casualties or not.

I will admit that a bayonet is a dangerous thing to have 
around.  The first casualty I saw in the Gulf War to arrive 
at the forward aid station during the ground war was a 
bayonet casualty.  A Bradley gunner was wearing his LBE open, 
and the bayonet fell out and stuck, blade up, in the back of 
his seat.  At some point, he ducked down and slammed the 
hatch overhead.  Suddenly, he noticed something cold, hard, 
and far too long up his backside.  So he stood up, and opened 
the hatch, and let the whole world know it.

I told him that he'll never be able to tell his kids about 
the war.  He spent the next two weeks lying on his face, 
while the nurses changed the packing several times a day 
without painkillers.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051643.DKL03760@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug brings up Dante
<snip>

Oh, I think that Marlowe's Mephistopheles was better:

Hell hath no limits
Nor is circumscribed in one self space
For where we are is Hell,
and where Hell is, there we shall ever be



________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 09:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (KevinC)
Date: Fri Apr  5 09:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
References: <20020405003205.D8ED7279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> I am trying to converts old TML archives into a format that the new Mailman
> archiver can use.  Here the problem.  When the messages were originally
> saved, they were saved as digests with most of the header stripped of each
> message.

Tod,

Will the new TML archive be accessible by web search engines and
bots/spiders?

If yes, then you need to do something to protect the email addresses of
anyone whose posts are in the archive.

Otherwise "harvesters" will grab them all, and spam the good ( still
active) ones.

-- 
KevinC               Pentapod's World of 2300AD
kevinc@cnetech.com   http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2303/
                     http://go.to/PentapodsWorld


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 09:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 09:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051636.DKL02665@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEMIDJAA.tml@downport.com>

A .45 Colt Derringer is two shots at point blank. By the time you pull your
Beretta out of your shoulder holster, kung foo kitty has already broken your
neck at that range. Also good in a knife fight, or after you have emptied or
lost your Colt .45

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

IMHO, it looks bulky, uncomfortable, and likely to blow your
fingers off. That, and the weapon that pops out is unlikely
to do more than draw return fire (or put bullet holes in your
computer at an inopportune moment). You've got maybe two
shots, and the weapon is likely to be something weak.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 09:27:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 09:27:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <20020405.092414.-73051.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

> --- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> > "ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."
> > 

Back in 1986 I added the above quote to our office computer system when I
was its oporator. I ran closing, mid and end of month stuff. Well, the
quote freaked out the Buyer, Accounts receivables, and a couple early
imput girls who didn't want to log on the next morning. Fortunately for
me I came in before the boss.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051758.DKN05522@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>
>A .45 Colt Derringer is two shots at point blank.

Have you seen how much a .45 Colt derringer weighs?  It's a 
steel brick.  Much better just to whack someone in the face 
with it in your fist.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:02:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:02:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051801.DKN05830@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>Well, the quote freaked out the Buyer, Accounts receivables, 
>and a couple early imput girls who didn't want to log on the 
>next morning. Fortunately for me I came in before the boss.
>

I've gotten called on the carpet for more than one e-mail sig 
that people "don't get".  Some of them were completely 
unoffensive, as far as I was concerned.

Sometimes there's a lot to be gained if none of your co-
workers know what your hobbies or prior careers were.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
References: <200204051758.DKN05522@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CADEAEB.10501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Have you seen how much a .45 Colt derringer weighs?  It's a 
> steel brick.  Much better just to whack someone in the face 
> with it in your fist.

Deal! I'll let Swordy whack me in the face with it and shoot you. Betcha 
I get up first ;-)

And they're not all that heavy...I thwacked myself on the head with my 
father-in laws' 357 Derringer once, digging in the closet for some 
shoes. A .45 isn't going to weigh a lot more than a .357 one.

(he had it in a coat pocket of one of his suits. Bruce digging in closet 
"Ah! There they are <KLONK> What the...!!!" <dig dig> "Jeez what's doing 
with a pocket cannon like that!??")

Seriously, (so to speak) DiNiro makes a rig like this in Taxi Driver out 
of a drawer slide and duct tape.

(if the women don't find ya handsome...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk> <001001c1dc2b$d13fac40$a6ecff3e@k5k9u6>
Message-ID: <3CADEB80.1080907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

nellkyn wrote:

> 
> Please stop it and make it go away! I've just suffered a BSI surveillance
> visit today. Traveller is where I get away from the real world.
> 
> Obtrav
> Would there be a standards institute in the 3I?
> Would ISO 9000 appeal to the Vilani sense bureaucracy?


One sentence that engenders fear and panic in every starship owner's 
heart: 'Bwap compliance inspector.'

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <3CADEAEB.10501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEMJDJAA.tml@downport.com>

The classic version weighs about the same as an empty coffee mug (15 oz). I
carry a mug with varying amounts of coffee in it all day long, to I'm
already in shape ;)

I suppose a light-weight could opt for a .44 at half the heft (7.5 oz) and
still be able to best a knife wielding punk.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Johnson

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Have you seen how much a .45 Colt derringer weighs?  It's a
> steel brick.  Much better just to whack someone in the face
> with it in your fist.

Deal! I'll let Swordy whack me in the face with it and shoot you. Betcha
I get up first ;-)

And they're not all that heavy...I thwacked myself on the head with my
father-in laws' 357 Derringer once, digging in the closet for some
shoes. A .45 isn't going to weigh a lot more than a .357 one.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3611@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405134053.00ab8e50@pop.wizard.net>

At 07:24 AM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Just to set things straight, it was John Groth that recommended the
>Brittania site [tips Diet Pepsit to John <'cause it's too early for beer ;)
> >]
>Jesse

I stand corrected.  John, thank you very much.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:52:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:52:29 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 9:22 AM, KevinC at kevinc@cnetech.com wrote:
> Tod,
> 
> Will the new TML archive be accessible by web search engines and
> bots/spiders?
> 
> If yes, then you need to do something to protect the email addresses of
> anyone whose posts are in the archive.
> 
> Otherwise "harvesters" will grab them all, and spam the good ( still
> active) ones.

I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>
>The classic version weighs about the same as an empty coffee 
>mug (15 oz).

Yes, and it's about half the weight of a Glock.  Half.

That, and unless we're right across the table, it's not as 
easy to hit something as one might think.  If we're as far 
apart as 15 feet, the average shooter is going to miss the 
majority of their shots at that distance (hopefully, Mr. Cook 
has given you some learned lessons).  You get two tries at 
what traditionally is 25% hits, and I get how many?

If you miss, well, I get to keep shooting.

If you're much closer than that, and I see you start the 
draw, it's a short distance to close and hold your arm down 
while I knee you in the groin.

I think that derringers were meant for shooting under the 
table without warning, or for shooting people in the back 
without warning.  The ones I've tried (American Derringer) 
had a tendency to turn in the hand between shots, and take 
time to orient correctly in the hand from the draw (perhaps 
why you'll need the sleeve gadget).

You could, of course, skip the derringer altogether and get a 
true "sleeve gun", which I'm sure Tod will have a legal 
comment on.  

ObTrav: there isn't much "law level" commentary on concealed 
weaponry. Does anyone have house rules on this?

I am less likely to find a derringer on your person with a 
hand search, especially if I'm careless.

I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed 
(in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so 
legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through 
their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears 
off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police 
detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out 
of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a 
no no to begin with).  


________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:07:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:07:29 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:51:56AM -0800
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com> <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405120614.B19040@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:51:56AM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

I would think the GNU Mailman would do this for you...

# $email = &obfuscate_email($email)
#        or
# @emails = &obfuscate_email(@emails)

sub obfuscate_email
{
  my @email = @_;
  my $email;

  foreach $email (@email)
  {
    $email =~ s/@/ at /g;
    $email =~ s/\./ dot /g;
  }
  if ($#email)
  {
    return @email;
  } else {
    return $email[0];
  }
}

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only kind of freedom that the mob can imagine is freedom to annoy
and oppress its betters, and that is precisely the kind that we mainly
have.                                                   --H.L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:09:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:09:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:21:18AM -0500
References: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020405120835.C19040@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:21:18AM -0500, laning wrote:
>
> Any of you guys know Ruby?

I'm afraid it doesn't do a whole lot for me.  I like perl, python,
scheme and C.  I'm sure I would like Common Lisp.  SmallTalk never did
a lot for me, and for awhile I thought C++ was cool--but I no longer
do.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There isn't a single useful thing that we in the CS community can come
up with that some @&%! marketer can't abuse.                 --devphil

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <20020405120614.B19040@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B8D3378F.376BE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 11:06 AM, Robert A. Uhl at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:51:56AM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>> 
>> I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.
> 
> I would think the GNU Mailman would do this for you...
> 
> # $email = &obfuscate_email($email)
> #        or

I haven't looked at the old archives to see how email is buried in there.
In the new lists, all email addresses point to the list address, and any
spammer who want to post to that will have to subscribe to the list.  Then
they'll get all the tml email -- counter spam!
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:15:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:15:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051914.DKP06560@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>SmallTalk never did a lot for me

You must like strong typing.  I learned to love programming 
again.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mole)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3378F.376BE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8D33890.5666%mole@solsec.org>

on 4/5/02 11:14 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> I haven't looked at the old archives to see how email is buried in there.
> In the new lists, all email addresses point to the list address, and any
> spammer who want to post to that will have to subscribe to the list.  Then
> they'll get all the tml email -- counter spam!
> --

"I see your spam and raise you several hundred counter spams"

-- 
Mole


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204051057330.14455-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, laning wrote:
> Any of you guys know Ruby?
> http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/index.html

I've been looking at it; it looks pretty nice.  Most criticisms I've seen
about it tend to point to Python as a better language, though.  As a
result, I'm learning them both at pretty much the same time.  Hard to make
an informed choice without knowing both, after all.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204051914.DKP06560@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:14:24PM -0500
References: <200204051914.DKP06560@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405123244.A19291@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:14:24PM -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> >SmallTalk never did a lot for me
> 
> You must like strong typing.  I learned to love programming 
> again.

I rather think you must mean _static_ typing.  Strong typing means
that expression are guaranteed to be type-safe (either at compile or
run time).  This is the case in nearly every language _but_ C, C++ and
assembler.  Weak typing means, for example, that you can try to add 14
to a string.  The results are generally unexpected.

Static typing means that a variable's type is checked once, at compile
time, and that it never changes.  This is the case in C.  Dynamic
typing is common in most other languages, including Python, SmallTalk
and Scheme.

I like dynamic strong typing.  Weak typing is too error-prone for my
tastes.  Hence I like Scheme a lot.  E.g.:

(define x 3)
(set! x "I am a happy string")
(set! x (lambda (y) (+ (sqrt y) (expt y 2))))

Are all legal.  However, strong typing means that:

(define x "This is a string")
(* x 7)

Is illegal, because * does not handle strings.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
RFC 882 put the dot in .com.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
References: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CADFCD0.6000801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Mark Urbin writes:
> 
>>The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF 
>>since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.
> 
> 
> Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a reference _since_ Lensman, though there
> certainly was one in Lensman.  In any case, it hasn't been a 'staple' exactly.

"Space Viking" H. Beam Piper

"The Forever War" mentions something like this, IIRC, but it's been a 
*long* time since I read it.

Many of the Flandry series, by Poul Anderson mention troopers using 
melee arms. I specifically remember one passage about a big trooper in 
battle dress wielding a 'collapsium-plated battle axe'.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051937.DKR02226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I can add 14 to a String in Smalltalk -- it's just that I'll 
get the message

"String does not understand +"

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:38:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:38:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 10:57 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> Yes, and it's about half the weight of a Glock.  Half.
> 
> That, and unless we're right across the table, it's not as
> easy to hit something as one might think.  If we're as far
> apart as 15 feet, the average shooter is going to miss the
> majority of their shots at that distance (hopefully, Mr. Cook
> has given you some learned lessons).  You get two tries at
> what traditionally is 25% hits, and I get how many?

As a note, it should be mentioned that a derringer's intrinsic accuracy is
the same as for any short barreled pistol.  It's the form factor that is the
problem.  If you put a derringer or any other short barrel handgun in a
Ransom rest, they can shoot remarkably well.

Personally, I think they are pretty useless except as a totalaly last
result.
> 
> I think that derringers were meant for shooting under the
> table without warning, or for shooting people in the back
> without warning.  The ones I've tried (American Derringer)
> had a tendency to turn in the hand between shots, and take
> time to orient correctly in the hand from the draw (perhaps
> why you'll need the sleeve gadget).

Assuming the sleeve gadget works.
> 
> You could, of course, skip the derringer altogether and get a
> true "sleeve gun", which I'm sure Tod will have a legal
> comment on. 

'Disguised' guns are a tricky proposition when dealing with ATF.  For
example, someone developed a holster that holds a derringer, and the
derringer can be fired from within the wallet shaped holster.

"Here's my wallet, sir, Just don't hurt me.  BLAM!  BLAM!"

ATF says that such a wallet and gun constitutes a disguised firearm and must
be registered (I believe and an AOW -- Any Other Weapon $5 transfer tax).
Gun guns, pen guns and other such weapons classify as AOWs.
> 
> ObTrav: there isn't much "law level" commentary on concealed
> weaponry. Does anyone have house rules on this?

Coming right up
> I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
> (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
> legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
> their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
> off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
> detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
> of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
> no no to begin with).

Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.
> 
> 
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <3cadc22c.4909163@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B8D33EA8.376DB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 7:42 AM, Stephen Tempest at tml@stempest.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
>> The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed civilians.  It has little or
>> no military application, contrary to popular mythos.
> 
> ... I wouldn't go that far...  Firstly, bayonets were primarily a
> _defensive_ weapon:  they stopped infantry being overrun and trampled
> by cavalry.  ("Form square!")

But what about Elan!

They were supposedly very offensive as well.  In an infantry charge with
musket you could get off one round and then it was 'in with the bayonet'.

The problem is that neither side really like the bayonet.  We it comes right
down to it, the attackers rarely actually thrust into their opponents. Look
at the reports of the number of actual bayonet wounds in the Napoleonic
wars, or even the American civil war.  The other side usually runs before it
gets to that, or the attackers stop short.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:47:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:47:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEMMDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Sorry to get you going on this stuff. I've been comparing a derringer to a
knife or a fist. 15 feet is as good as a mile with a derringer (at least for
me). This is more of the Body Pistol argument. It is not a serious weapon,
it is bit of muscle when you don't have a serious weapon. It is a bang when
they expect a punch. Not having any aiming abilities*, I'd never try to
shoot further than a yard.

*Forex: on Thanksgiving I was treated to about 50 shots from a small 9mm
handgun. My target was a swinging 2 liter bottle of water at about 10-12
yards. It was still full of water when I got done. Give me a snowball,
though, and things are different ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

"Swordy" says
>
>The classic version weighs about the same as an empty coffee
>mug (15 oz).

Yes, and it's about half the weight of a Glock.  Half.

That, and unless we're right across the table, it's not as
easy to hit something as one might think.  If we're as far
apart as 15 feet, the average shooter is going to miss the
majority of their shots at that distance (hopefully, Mr. Cook
has given you some learned lessons).  You get two tries at
what traditionally is 25% hits, and I get how many?

If you miss, well, I get to keep shooting.

If you're much closer than that, and I see you start the
draw, it's a short distance to close and hold your arm down
while I knee you in the groin.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <3CADEB80.1080907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <001001c1dc2b$d13fac40$a6ecff3e@k5k9u6>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405145001.00a7b1d8@urbin.net>

At 11:22 AM 4/5/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>nellkyn wrote:
>>Please stop it and make it go away! I've just suffered a BSI surveillance
>>visit today. Traveller is where I get away from the real world.
>>Obtrav
>>Would there be a standards institute in the 3I?
>>Would ISO 9000 appeal to the Vilani sense bureaucracy?
>One sentence that engenders fear and panic in every starship owner's 
>heart: 'Bwap compliance inspector.'

That's a keeper!  Bruce, would you mind joining Doug in my RPG sig quote file?



>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"It is both foolish and wicked to teach the average man who is
not well off that some wrong or injustice has been done him,
and that he should hope for redress elsewhere than in his own
industry, honesty, and intelligence." -- Theodore Roosevelt,
"Review of Reviews", January 1897
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>
>Sorry to get you going on this stuff. I've been comparing a 
>derringer to a knife or a fist.

I hope never to be that close to someone when something bad 
happens (then again, consider my luck).

We used to do fighting with rubber knives and chalk, with 
black t-shirts.  From about three paces, I never failed to 
mark someone from the gut to the collar before they could 
clear leather.  That was someone who knew what the exercise 
entailed, and I am by no means a martial artist, or an expert 
with a knife.

Bad things happen really fast. 
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod says:

>I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

Thank you for that.  :->

Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
usenet newsgroups.

Just a thought.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204051937.DKR02226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:37:55PM -0500
References: <200204051937.DKR02226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405130711.B19291@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:37:55PM -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
> I can add 14 to a String in Smalltalk -- it's just that I'll 
> get the message
> 
> "String does not understand +"

(define x "A string")
(+ 14 x)

In guile:
  standard input:51:1: In procedure + in expression (+ 14 x):
  standard input:51:1: Wrong type argument: "A string"
  ABORT: (wrong-type-arg)

  Type "(backtrace)" to get more information.

In umb-scheme:
  Error: Bad argument type to primitive in: (+ 14 x)

In other words, the same thing as in SmallTalk.  Both Scheme and
SmallTalk have strong dynamic typing.  C, OTOH, has weak static
typing.  The C fragment:

char* string = "fellow";
string--;
string = "fool";

Is completely legal, and completely wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Bother,' said Pooh, `Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock
phasers on the Heffalump; Piglet, meet me in transporter room three.'
                                                    --Robert Billing

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:08:38PM -0500
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com> <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020405130926.C19291@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:08:38PM -0500, laning wrote:
> 
> Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
> site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
> then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
> for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
> usenet newsgroups.

I hate that--Yahoo does it.  It means that information is hidden from
all but members, and what had been a public resource is hidden behind
a wall.  Given that there are other, better ways to prevent address
harvesting, I cannot support such a move.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A lady came up to me on the street and pointed at my suede jacket.  `You
know a cow was murdered for that jacket?' she sneered. 
I replied in a psychotic tone, `I didn't know there were any witnesses.
Now I'll have to kill you too.'                        --Jake Johansen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051207400.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, laning wrote:

> Tod says:
> 
> >I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.
> 
> Thank you for that.  :->
> 
> Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
> site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
> then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
> for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
> usenet newsgroups.
> 
That'd be great, as long as my password could be changed by me to
something I wouldn't forget.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <20020405130926.C19291@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051217390.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:08:38PM -0500, laning wrote:
> > 
> > Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
> > site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
> > then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
> > for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
> > usenet newsgroups.
> 
> I hate that--Yahoo does it.  It means that information is hidden from
> all but members, and what had been a public resource is hidden behind
> a wall.  Given that there are other, better ways to prevent address
> harvesting, I cannot support such a move.

Have you ever been tracked down from a public resource?

I have.  

If they want to read our posts they can always sign up.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 11:52 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> We used to do fighting with rubber knives and chalk, with
> black t-shirts.  From about three paces, I never failed to
> mark someone from the gut to the collar before they could
> clear leather.  That was someone who knew what the exercise
> entailed, and I am by no means a martial artist, or an expert
> with a knife.

I'd just like to point out that there is a big difference between practicing
with knives in the dojo and actually using one one someone.  Knife fighting
is a brutal and intimate form of combat.  A single knife thrust or slash is
rarely incapacitating or even debilitating.  To actually stop an attacker
with a knife, you need to be prepared to use it multiple times.  There will
be blood, and possibly screaming.  You will be right in your opponents face.
An he will probably not be cooperating.

The human body is also much better defended against a knife than a firearm.
There are lots of bones to get in the way:  ribs, arms and leg bones, etc.
As an experiment, try thrusting and/or slashing an animal carcass.  Better
if it's hanging on a cord so it's free to swing and twist.  it's a lot
harder than it seems.

Also, most knives are not really up to the challenge of combat.  They are
rarely sharp enough or strong enough to be really effective.  It's hard to
slash through clothing and then deep into meat.  It's hard to thrust between
ribs and not break a point or have the knife twist out of you hand,
especially if there's a lot of blood on everything (including you).

Working in a hospital, I saw a lot of people wounded by knives walk into the
emergency room under their own power.  A few people wounded by handguns did
the same.  I never saw anyone who had been shot by a rifle in a major body
part walk in, they were wheeled in.

I like knives.  I was a professional custom knife maker for several years.
My preference was for 'fighting' knives.  But if I had to pick a weapon, a
knife would be way down my list (after guns, baseball bat, etc.)

A knife is really best as an offensive weapon, provided you are ruthless
enough to use it.  It excels in the surprise silent kill on an unsuspecting
opponents, preferably attacked from behind.  But only if you don't have
something better.

A friend, who worked with Pheonix project while in the service in the 1960s
related to me the story of his one knife encounter (after many beers).  This
person is a large, powerful and rather competent former member Special
Forces.  Attempting to kidnap a local individual for interrogation by his
CIA masters, things got out of hand.  He attempted to use a Randall number 1
(a particularly well regarded combat knife) to end the conflict.  His
opponent was all of 5'5" and of slight build.

Ken reported that he stabbed the individual at least a dozen times.  Blood
was everywhere and the target was screaming like a banshee and fighting like
a tiger.  They lost their grip on the bloody man, who promptly ran off.  He
was captured several days later.

Makes one think.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:33:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:33:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051217390.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:19:15PM -0800
References: <20020405130926.C19291@4dv.net> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051217390.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020405133255.A19481@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:19:15PM -0800, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> Have you ever been tracked down from a public resource?

Yeah--but 'twas a good thing in my case.  And, indeed, it doesn't
bother me--the same can be done with Google and a few minutes in the
white pages, generally.

The development of the Internet into a group of walled-and-gated
communities is not, IMHO, a good thing.

I _really_ hate being forced to choose between registering (and having
who-knows-what happen to my data) and not accessing what is
essentially public information.  After all, anyone can sign up and
archive the list anyway.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Umm...  Excuse me.  I think the network's down?'
`A communications disruption can only mean one thing...invasion.'
          --Lee Maguire, teaching us how to make people go away

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204052034.DKT01667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

So it's a matter of "do you enforce typing" and "when do you 
enforce it".

I like mine done, but only at the last minute.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:35:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:35:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D34A21.37700%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 12:08 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the
> site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address
> then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy
> for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than
> usenet newsgroups.

And would the users bitch.  oh yes.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:32:47PM -0800
References: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405133914.A19510@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:32:47PM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> A knife is really best as an offensive weapon, provided you are ruthless
> enough to use it.  It excels in the surprise silent kill on an unsuspecting
> opponents, preferably attacked from behind.

http://armor.com/2000/catalog/item723.html

Although the picture is not nearly as nice as in the previous edition.
It's actually a beautiful glittering foot-long weapon ideal for that
sort of work.  Not something that has any use in a knife-fight.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
           --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204052034.DKT01667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:34:14PM -0500
References: <200204052034.DKT01667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405134034.B19510@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:34:14PM -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
> So it's a matter of "do you enforce typing" and "when do you 
> enforce it".
> 
> I like mine done, but only at the last minute.

Which is what SmallTalk and Scheme both do.

Now, there are advantages to SmallTalk.  To tell te truth, I just
never cared over-much for its syntax or standard library.  It didn't
do a whole lot for me.  But everyone's different.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Cape Cod Salsa--somehow that's just not right.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:51:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:51:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <3CADFCD0.6000801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405151454.02882b30@pop.wizard.net>

Bruce Johnson:

>Many of the Flandry series, by Poul Anderson mention troopers using melee 
>arms. I specifically remember one passage about a big trooper in battle 
>dress wielding a 'collapsium-plated battle axe'.

Collapsium, eh?  Plated, you say"  Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Beware those lesser-quality battle axes sold by others.  'Collapsium 
plating' can never substitute for the reliable, never-needs-sharpening, 
100%-pure Unobtainium (tm) battle axe sold only by special and exclusive 
arrangement with the only certified maker of battle axes that His Imperial 
Majesty's Marine Corps buys from.

(Video of two people in different colored battle dress facing each 
other.  The one in green battle dress just stands there, arms folded, while 
the one in black battle dress is hacking away uselessly at his chest with a 
battle axe.  You can see pieces of the axe's plating flaking off and 
spinning in every direction each time it strikes the armored chest.)

Voiceover:  "Has this ever happened to you?"

Voiceover:  "Don't wind up like this poor guy who bought from cheap imitators!"

(Video cuts to the person in black battle dress, now laying stretched out 
and unmoving on his back, arms collapsed on the ground as if they had been 
held up defensively before collapsing.  The green battle dress is standing, 
facing camera, arms folded again, one foot on the torso of his vanquished 
enemy.  A camouflage-handled battle axe is sunk into the neck of the purple 
battle dress, all the way to the haft.)

Voiceover:  "This sad story has been repeated all too often by 
others.  Don't be embarrassed like them!  Get the only genuine, solid 100% 
Unobtainium battle axe sold in the Marches today and enjoy the pleasure and 
satisfaction of winning all your melees from now on!"

(Video of man in black battle dress.  Helmet is swung back on its hinges so 
we can see the wearer's head.  A good-looking professional model with a 
cr150 haircut and perfect teeth, smiling and basking in the congratulations 
and envious looks from his squadmates who are crowded around him.)

Squadmate 1:  "Wow, Sergeant, I've always heard how great pure Unobtainium 
battle axes are, and now I know someone who _has_ one!"

Squadmate 2:  "Sergeant Jones, you _always_ seem to have the best gear.  No 
wonder you always get the girls when we're on leave."

Squadmate 3 (glumly):  "Well I guess it isn't _me_ who will be killing the 
most enemy in close combat anymore."

(Very tall, distinguished looking man in black battle dress walks up from 
Jones' side, helmet also completely open.  He has a colonel's insignia on 
his chest.)

Colonel:  "Well, Sergeant Jones, I can see _why_ you were just recommended 
for meritorious promotion.  You're the only one here savvy enough to have 
bought a genuine, pure 100% Unobtainium battle axe."

(Colonel pulls his Unobtainium axe from his side.  Close up as he holds it 
in front of his face to admire and proudly display it.)

Colonel:  "It reminds me of the same 100% Unobtainium battle axe I got just 
before I was commissioned 25 years ago and _still_ with me today.  It has 
never let me down."

(Colonel turns to Jones again and puts his free hand on Jones' shoulder 
with a smile.)

Colonel:  "Son, it looks like it will be smooth sailing for you."

(Cut to graphic of axe, captioned with 'The ONLY exclusive pure 100% 
Unobtainium (tm) battle axe!'  Net, comm, and xboat sales information 
listed below that for the market the ad is running in.)

Voiceover:  "Isn't it about time _you_ make the right choice and get the 
only pure 100% Unobtainium battle axe in the Marches?"

(Graphic remains as a translucent overlay.  Behind it we see Jones in full, 
black battle dress, helmet sealed laying waste to one green-suited foe 
after another as they run up to him attacking wildly but he easily 
penetrates each one's armor in one try and they throw their arms up and 
collapse in death.)

(Graphic overlay remains, video cuts to closeup of someone in green battle 
dress, helmet open.  He looks terrified.  He addresses the camera as it 
slowly zooms to close up.)

Terrified Trooper:  "That guy must have an _Unobtainium_ battle axe."

Terrified Trooper (resigned and glum):  "I sure wish _I_ had one of those 
but it's too late, now."

(Camera pulls back to show Terrified Trooper charging Jones as the pile of 
bodies in front of Jones grows.)

--Laning
I almost wrote it up as Chinese forklift spam but for bonded superdense 
battle axes instead.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <20020405.125213.-122687.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:01:18 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
>
> 
> Sometimes there's a lot to be gained if none of your co-
> workers know what your hobbies or prior careers were.

Oh, I like this...

How about a character doing the same?
Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her past, and late in
a game spring it on your group.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:53:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:53:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
Message-ID: <200204052051.DKT03530@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>I never saw anyone who had been shot by a rifle in a major 
>body part walk in, they were wheeled in.
>
Which brings me around full circle.  I remember being told by 
an older NCO not to carry a fighting knife, as he had killed 
numerous men at close enough range to see their last meal on 
their teeth.  But he always used a RIFLE.  From a few feet 
away (CAR-15 on full auto, as he told it).

This man had been in Vietnam, had his lower jaw shot off, and 
walked three days without medical care to be retrieved.  He 
was put out of the service for some time, but after getting 
bone implants was allowed to reenlist in the Army. We were 
all afraid of him (1SGT Lydick).

He said he never, ever killed anyone with a knife OR a 
pistol.  Always the rifle.

Haven't killed anyone, but I've killed a lot of deer. Made 
the mistake "once" of trying to use a .44 Mag on a 180 pound 
whitetail (a bit heavy, yes) near Savannah, GA.  Two hits, 
from 35 yards away, one through the left side into the lungs 
and out the other side, one as he turned (into the diaphragm 
forward and out through the front).  I had to follow him for 
two miles. (240gr Sierra JHP, 24 grains IMR 4227, your 
mileage may differ).

Not one deer that I've shot "once" with a .308 (180 grain 
Nosler Ballistic Tip) has taken more than two steps before 
falling.  And that was up to 150 yards away (no, I don't make 
long range shots on deer).

The .308 is not a "powerhouse" round, but it is a real rifle 
round.

ObTrav: Question about penetration and damage.  There 
is "proof" now that the green tip will penetrate most body 
armor at urban combat ranges BUT, if it hits an unarmored 
person, it is less likely to overpenetrate than standard 9mm 
ball at the same distance.  How does that work?  One would 
think that penetration is penetration, and if it goes through 
a vest, then you aren't even standing there.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204052054.DKT03893@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning writes
<snip nice commercial for unobtainum battle axe>

Might need a handle made of handwavium.  That way, you can 
kill people and do your handwaves in one stroke.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204052058.DKT04431@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  writes
>Oh, I like this...
>
>How about a character doing the same?
>Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her 
>past, and late in a game spring it on your group.
>

I've mostly rolled my characters in private, and I've never 
really shown my sheet to others.

How many of you saw Ronin?  That was a nice part where DeNiro 
asks, "What color was the roof of the boathouse?".  I didn't 
really like the movie too much (seemed aimless), but it was 
Traveller-esque.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several 
places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and 
they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone 
in the place.

Fear and loathing ensues.  At one place, when my first wife 
left, there was a meeting held "about John" without my 
knowledge, to address "a potential problem".  Nothing ever 
happened, and I've never been one to make threats or act out.

When I retired "the rifle" to the local SWAT team (they 
thought it was Christmas), there was much rejoicing at work.

I went out and bought another one.  But it's not like the 
place I work for now really needs to know that.  You really 
are treated as a second-class citizen, just for owning a 
firearm.

I don't know how Tod does it, or Mark, or some of the other 
NFA holders.  People would jump out of their skins here if I 
told them I was going to buy an NFA weapon.

ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because 
people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.



________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <B8D33EA8.376DB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3cadc22c.4909163@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405155359.028b0110@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn points out:
>The problem is that neither side really like the bayonet.  We it comes right
>down to it, the attackers rarely actually thrust into their opponents. Look
>at the reports of the number of actual bayonet wounds in the Napoleonic
>wars, or even the American civil war.  The other side usually runs before it
>gets to that, or the attackers stop short.

Yeah.  If _everyone_ in those mass formations that charged each other 
actually fought when they were in contact with the enemy, casualty lists 
for battles in those eras would have been even more tragic.  And the 
battles would have been a heck of a lot shorter.

It definitely did happen in some units, some times.  But my vision of most 
of those clashes is that most of the infantrymen were busy trying to keep 
anything from stabbing them or shooting them.  More concerned with staying 
out of harm's way than inflicting harm.  Which completely matches human 
nature.  This vision is one of the few ways I can reconcile the statistics 
we have for battles in those times.  How can so many men who are fighting 
each other with nasty weapons be in such close proximity for so long and 
not have most of them mortally wounded or dead?  The fact that there are 
many instances of units actually being slaughtered in close contact only 
serves to make the more usual case stand out more starkly.

Which is a good thing, because I generally have tears pouring silently down 
my face whenever visiting ACW battlefields (I live in Northern Virginia, so 
I've been to a lot of them) or the time I went to Waterloo.  Even more 
death would just make it worse.  So much bravery, so many lives, people 
trying to just survive or people willing to kill and die for their 
beliefs,  the right and the wrong, all wasted.  Funny how so much wasted 
life and folly can make you proud to be in the same human race as them.

Since opposed planetary assaults are usually last on the list of the 
military options in the 57th century, that probably means that most major 
'battlefields' are naval battles fought in space.  What parks and museums 
should we expect from them?

--Laning
"This story shall the good man teach his son,
  And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
  From this day to the ending of the world,
  But we in it shall be remembered..."
--'Henry V' by William Shakespeare


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon points out, then Tod Glenn remarks:
> > I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
> > (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
> > legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
> > their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
> > off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
> > detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
> > of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
> > no no to begin with).
>
>Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.

And (again) what would Freud say?  :->

I doubt most societies in the Imperium will be any different.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:23:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:23:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <198.4e08185.29df6f8d@aol.com>

--part1_198.4e08185.29df6f8d_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, 
anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
  -Ken Murphy-

--part1_198.4e08185.29df6f8d_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_198.4e08185.29df6f8d_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:26:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:26:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>
References: <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net>

At 04:25 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, laning wrote:
>John Kwon points out, then Tod Glenn remarks:
>> > I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
>> > (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
>> > legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
>> > their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
>> > off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
>> > detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
>> > of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
>> > no no to begin with).
>>Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.
>And (again) what would Freud say?  :->

Probably the same thing.  Fear of weapons is a sign of sexual disorder.



>I doubt most societies in the Imperium will be any different.

-------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"The self is not something that one finds. It is
something that one creates." - Thomas Szasz
-------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <198.4e08185.29df6f8d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162512.00a6d940@urbin.net>

Instead of splitting wood, it's designed to crack open combat armor.

Sharper, denser...not to be wielded by the He-Man Muscle Workout dropouts, 
or those without strength augmenting exoskeletons...

At 04:22 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:
>  And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, 
> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
>  -Ken Murphy-

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence.  Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <20020405133914.A19510@4dv.net>
References: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405163130.03930bc0@pop.wizard.net>

Bob Uhl quoteth thusly:
>"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
>[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
>            --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

"Guns don't kill people.  Bullets kill people."  -humorous bumper sticker


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>Yeah.  If _everyone_ in those mass formations that charged 
>each other actually fought when they were in contact with 
>the enemy, casualty lists for battles in those eras would 
>have been even more tragic.

Actually, combat was far deadlier in the age of sword, on a 
percentage basis (not counting that you probably would die of 
infection if merely wounded).

Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.  
Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally 
ensued.

We've talked about it before, but the Dupuy curve shows 
weapon lethality shooting through the ceiling while 
battlefield deaths keep going down.  We're scattering, 
running, etc.  And we're not willing to engage face to face, 
human against human (what is a Predator with Hellfire, 
anyway: a one-way killing machine).

But catch a few thousand men who, after running a few hundred 
yards in armor, are now too exhausted and demoralized to 
properly defend themselves, and....

I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the 
survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of 
war.  People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or 
they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.  
Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their 
army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full 
of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in 
their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything 
except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message 
across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you 
have to do.

ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their 
opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like 
we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?

I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to 
nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough 
missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their 
ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on 
the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay 
waste to an advanced industrial society?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D358F8.3771D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:06 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several
> places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and
> they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone
> in the place.

What can I say.  Oregon.
> 
> Fear and loathing ensues.  At one place, when my first wife
> left, there was a meeting held "about John" without my
> knowledge, to address "a potential problem".  Nothing ever
> happened, and I've never been one to make threats or act out.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <200204052051.DKT03530@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405163356.03932ae0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn, after relating the combat advice of a seriously hard-core First 
Sergeant, then says:
>ObTrav: Question about penetration and damage.  There
>is "proof" now that the green tip will penetrate most body
>armor at urban combat ranges BUT, if it hits an unarmored
>person, it is less likely to overpenetrate than standard 9mm
>ball at the same distance.  How does that work?  One would
>think that penetration is penetration, and if it goes through
>a vest, then you aren't even standing there.

I don't know what green tip exactly means.  Is it more likely to deform 
upon initial penetration?  That will help it to veer, tumble, and otherwise 
do a poor job of continuing straight out the other side.  If it means the 
so-called Teflon bullet, then I've no idea what's going on with 
that.  Slice one open lengthwise and see what you can see about the details 
of its sectional density.  Maybe that will be illuminating.  Or maybe they 
have lower muzzle velocity, but just enough to penetrate standard body 
armor at less than ten yards given their fancy jacketing.

IMTU, you can usually buy all kinds of fancyshmancy ammo and make your gun 
much more effective at the job the ammo is tailored to.  Something that 
Striker and following books got partly into.  But MTU goes way past the 
number of ammo choices that would make a Tractics die hard deliriously 
happy.  Like the man said,  Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018043091.7096.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the 
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of 
> war.
<snip> 
> It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message 
> across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you 
> have to do.

Historically, it didn't work very well.  Wars are not notably more (or less)
common today than in the past (this implies that nothing works very well).
> 
> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their 
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like 
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?

Mostly because MAD is alive and well in the Traveller Universe.  It's not as
easy as with the US and Soviets pointing 10,000 nuclear weapons at one another,
but a fullscale war could easily depopulate everything within a sector of the
spinward marches, on all sides.  It's very hard to prevent a jump-capable fleet
from laying waste to a world.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405164402.03931ec0@pop.wizard.net>

>I don't know how Tod does it, or Mark, or some of the other
>NFA holders.  People would jump out of their skins here if I
>told them I was going to buy an NFA weapon.
>
>ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because
>people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.

John, quit this world and this job and move to Tod's Traveller 
Universe.  You'd love working on the high port at Regina.  :->

You'd probably want to _marry_ Kelly, lol!

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:50:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:50:28 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMENBDJAA.tml@downport.com>

That was only one campaign in Joshua. They didn't do as they were told and
they continue the fight to this day.

Most times you see the winners killing the armies and enslaving/absorbing
the strong while leaving the weak to be plundered by lesser foes. Also very
effective.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

[snip]  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Knife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <200204052051.DKT03530@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D35CA4.3772F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 12:51 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> ObTrav: Question about penetration and damage.  There
> is "proof" now that the green tip will penetrate most body
> armor at urban combat ranges BUT, if it hits an unarmored
> person, it is less likely to overpenetrate than standard 9mm
> ball at the same distance.  How does that work?  One would
> think that penetration is penetration, and if it goes through
> a vest, then you aren't even standing there.


Au Contraire.  Penetration has to do with cross-sectional density, hardness
of the projectile and velocity.  A bullet with good penetration can become
very unstable when transiting media, particularly tissue.  I suspect that
the M855 green tip his weight distribution such that at a given rate of
twist, it starts to yaw severely when it transits into tissue.  IIRC, the
M855 is longer than the old M198 and Mach's equation shows that once the
bullet starts to tumble, projectile length is a dominant factor in bullet
retardation.  In the case of simple armor penetration, the armor material is
not think enough or pliant enough for yawing to be a factor.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405164402.03931ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D35D23.37730%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:51 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

>> ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because
>> people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.
> 
> John, quit this world and this job and move to Tod's Traveller
> Universe.  You'd love working on the high port at Regina.  :->
> 
> You'd probably want to _marry_ Kelly, lol!
> 

"An armed society is a polite society"- RAH

I always found it amusing to see Jeff Cooper quoting Heinlein.

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D34A21.37700%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405165320.039342f0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod, almost presciently, points out:

>And would the users bitch.  oh yes.

Indeed.  I think it's already started.  :->

To all:  I'm glad I advanced the idea here, because we got to have the 
feedback on how unpopular it is before the idea had a chance to waste 
anyone's time further.  And because it's now _me_ you can suspect of being 
a closet totalitarian out to subvert your right to privacy instead of 
thinking our erstwhile Listmom had anything to do with it.

I'd be happy to live with that arrangement, but only because I think I've 
come to know the Listmom well enough to realize there is _no_ danger of 
Listmom doing anything even slightly like not respecting our privacy.  And 
it would only be necessary to go past the firewalling when you want to 
access the archives, which isn't often.  Basically, I'd just go there once, 
FTP all the archives, and have them around on my local hard drive for much 
more quick and convenient use forever afterwards.

But I would be most _unhappy_ with that arrangement if creating it caused a 
rift in the TML community.  Definitely not worth it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <20020405.135958.-122687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:22:21 EST MurfNMurf@aol.com writes:
>    And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, 
> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
>   -Ken Murphy-

The handles made of Penguin bone!
The heads diamond grit plated!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <20020405.135958.-122687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <B8D35F30.3775F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:59 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
>> And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin,
>> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
>> -Ken Murphy-
> 
> The handles made of Penguin bone!
> The heads diamond grit plated!

Wouldn't penguin bone be kind of small.  How about oosik?  Then you get the
pleasure of explaining just where this unique handle material comes from.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>
 <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>

Mark Urbin:
>At 04:25 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, laning wrote:
>>John Kwon points out, then Tod Glenn remarks:
>>> > I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
>>> > (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
>>> > legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
>>> > their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
>>> > off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
>>> > detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
>>> > of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
>>> > no no to begin with).
>>>Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.
>>And (again) what would Freud say?  :->
>
>Probably the same thing.  Fear of weapons is a sign of sexual disorder.

:->  LOL.

I was thinking more like "they like touching their surrogate a great 
deal".  I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival 
response.  Unreasoning and disproportionate fear, and especially 
incapacitating fear, is a different matter and Freud would probably say a 
sign of some disorder.

Anyway, the TML has seen more than enough virtual ink spilled on 
gun-control-related issues.  Let's not go there.  I only meant my Freud 
remark as very light humor.  Please excuse the distraction.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:06:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:06:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <B8D35D23.37730%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405164402.03931ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170735.03959740@pop.wizard.net>

>"An armed society is a polite society"- RAH
>
>I always found it amusing to see Jeff Cooper quoting Heinlein.
>
>Tod

Well, I wouldn't want to learn my politics from either of them.  Too 
dictatorial.  I'll stick to the first for science fiction and the second 
for shooting techniques.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:08:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:08:30 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <B8D358F8.3771D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051404360.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

> on 4/5/02 1:06 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several
> > places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and
> > they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone
> > in the place.

OK, color me clueless, but-- if you go to someone's house on a SHOOTING
trip, wouldn't you expect them to have GUNS?

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh.

> > Fear and loathing ensues.  At one place, when my first wife
> > left, there was a meeting held "about John" without my
> > knowledge, to address "a potential problem".  Nothing ever
> > happened, and I've never been one to make threats or act out.

And this was while you were still married, right?  Man!!!!!

They were concerned about my ex-husband at my workplace for a while, but
that was because they knew the breakup was not friendly. 

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>

>Actually, combat was far deadlier in the age of sword, on a
>percentage basis (not counting that you probably would die of
>infection if merely wounded).

But I do count that.  And, as you go on to point out, the biggest factor of 
all...
>Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.
>Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally
>ensued.
>
>
>ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
>opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
>we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
>I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
>nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
>missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their
>ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on
>the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay
>waste to an advanced industrial society?

Well, we're sortakinda talking about 'Victorians in space' and that sort of 
warfare is barbaric and just bloody unsporting, old boy.  Besides, if all 
the worlds end up getting nuked, where the heck are the players going to play?

In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear 
devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and 
convincing reasons for it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D361DF.37767%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:32 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> Actually, combat was far deadlier in the age of sword, on a
> percentage basis (not counting that you probably would die of
> infection if merely wounded).

I've never seen any good statistics.  Was it really, man-for-man deadlier?
I would have thought most casualties came from the pursuit stage, where
doubtless or progenitors were much more blood thirsty.  An disease was by
far the biggest killer of soldiers, at least until WWII.
> 
> Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.
> Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally
> ensued.

Yes, the pursuit.  What you've been saving your cavalry for.
> 
> We've talked about it before, but the Dupuy curve shows
> weapon lethality shooting through the ceiling while
> battlefield deaths keep going down.  We're scattering,
> running, etc.  And we're not willing to engage face to face,
> human against human (what is a Predator with Hellfire,
> anyway: a one-way killing machine).

I'm going to have to read "Understanding War" again.  It's been too long.

> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> war.  

I'm not sure that's true any more.  Call for no quarter and the enemy is apt
to adopt a DIP attitude and fight to the last man.  Care to fight a hundred
Camerons?  Hard on your won troops morale.

If you treat you captives well, there more of an inducement to surrender.
Than you really only have to polish off the leadership.

> People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.
> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

Well, I wouldn't call the OT an accurate history in the modern sense.  The
greatest empire were forged by armies that accepted the surrender of their
foes, and absorbed their culture.
> 
> It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message
> across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you
> have to do.

When the Germans marched triumphantly through Paris after the Fraco-Prussian
was, that scene was burned into the minds of every Frenchman.  Then followed
Versailles, which made WWII possible.  We win WWII and turn loose the
Marshall plan.  Anyone think we'll be going to war with Germany soon?
> 
> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
> 
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their
> ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on
> the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay
> waste to an advanced industrial society?


Nuke a few worlds and you'll have you enemy screaming "Remember Altair 7" or
whatever.  Start nuking my worlds like that, and I'll decide I can never
make peace with you, that I must fight to the last man, and burn two of your
worlds for every one on mine you destroy.  It's a bloody calculus that's
bound to backfire.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <20020405.141338.-122687.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:58:04 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> 
> I've mostly rolled my characters in private, and I've never 
> really shown my sheet to others.

Right, sheets are private.

I'm talking about a group setting, you're into your game, and out of the
blue [on que with the GM] a persons character reverts to his former
career, be it military, psycho, war flashback, librarian for that matter,
which the group has no idea of until the characters turned loose by a
code word, light, smell, whatever.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D3629C.3776C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 2:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear
> devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and
> convincing reasons for it.

MAD
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:07:07PM -0500
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net> <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020405152015.A19842@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:07:07PM -0500, laning wrote:
>
> I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.

Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
However, it is important not to stare at the enemy because he may sense
the stalker's presence through a sixth sense.
  --US Army Field Manual 21-150 Chapter 7 "Sentry Removal"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <20020405.142533.-122687.3.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 14:03:28 -0800 Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> on 4/5/02 1:59 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com 
> wrote:
> >> And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial  cousin,
> >> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? 
> What?
> >> -Ken Murphy-
> > 
> > The handles made of Penguin bone!
> > The heads diamond grit plated!
> 
> Wouldn't penguin bone be kind of small. 

*** Bonded Superdense Penguin bones ***

> How about oosik? 

Say what??? What's Oosik??

Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <20020405.142533.-122687.3.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <B8D36663.37773%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 2:25 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> 
>> How about oosik?
> 
> Say what??? What's Oosik??
> 

A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
bone from a walrus penis.  See
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html

"I am the walrus.  Koo Koo Kachew!"
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <20020405.143525.-122687.4.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:20:15 -0700 "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:
> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:07:07PM -0500, laning wrote:
> >
> > I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.
> 
> Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
> blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
> strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.
> -- 

With me, being on the giving end is like putting on a warm fuzzy jacket
on a cold day. 
Makes me feel warm all over.
Which is why I sold my rifle.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020406083804.B25929@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear
> devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong
> and convincing reasons for it.

Near-c rock devastation is so much more effective?  <grin,duck,run>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204052240.g35MeAh25949@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

  CT stats are in an old SG (~#50?); the same one with 
the "Killer RV" for CW, IIRC :>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: bayonets
Message-ID: <200204052242.g35Mg9h26355@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
...
>The problem is that neither side really like the bayonet.  We it comes right
>down to it, the attackers rarely actually thrust into their opponents. Look
>at the reports of the number of actual bayonet wounds in the Napoleonic
>wars, or even the American civil war.  The other side usually runs before it
>gets to that, or the attackers stop short.

  But would they have run if the attackers - well, about-to-be-
pursuing infantry - _didn't_ have bayonets?  I suggest not.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:44:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:44:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <B8D35F30.3775F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020405.135958.-122687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405174141.00abfe98@urbin.net>

At 02:03 PM 4/5/2002 -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 4/5/02 1:59 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> >> And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin,
> >> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
> >> -Ken Murphy-
> > The handles made of Penguin bone!
> > The heads diamond grit plated!
>Wouldn't penguin bone be kind of small.  How about oosik?  Then you get the
>pleasure of explaining just where this unique handle material comes from.

Hmm...I would go with K'kree thighbones.



-------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"The self is not something that one finds. It is
something that one creates." - Thomas Szasz
-------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:59:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:59:28 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
References: <20020405.125213.-122687.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CAE2C1B.9030204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> Oh, I like this...
> 
> How about a character doing the same?
> Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her past, and late in
> a game spring it on your group.
>

All the time. In  Eris' Akus Moby pbem all the characters started out 
knowing nothing about each other...we only know what our characters have 
told the others, in some cases that's probably just the tip of the iceberg.

All of us have some secrets, I'm sure.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <memo.290869@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200204052058.DKT04431@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

On Ronin: it's a trick question. There are 2 boathouses.

Don't ask me how I know :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] PBeM  Refs
Message-ID: <B8D36E7D.3778F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Would all the PBeM refs who are running lists on TravellerCentral.com
please add listmom@travellercentral.com to addresses that can post to your
list.

Thanks way I can send administrative messages to all the various list
subscribers.

See the section is list admin: privacy option that starts

"Addresses of members accepted for posting to this list without implicit
approval requirement."


Thanks
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAAEMDCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn says

[Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary weapon of the
infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  number of wounds caused by
bayonets was extremely small.]

That's because if I find someone at the end of my bayonet, they're not 
going to be wounded.  They won't even make it to the aid station.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204052324.g35NOjh06085@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
>Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
...
>>ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
>>opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
>>we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
...
>In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear 
>devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and 
>convincing reasons for it.

  The K'kree seem to be the only major polity that believes in
re-surfacing planets as a matter of policy. There's all sorts
of amateurs that try and compete for the title, but mostly sanity
(MAD) or cultural constraints interfere.

        Kirurform (def'n) - application of massive thermo-nuclear
and cobalt weapon bombardment to a planet inhabited by sapient
carnivores in a traditional K'kree cultural context. Wait 500
years, seed, mow, and colonize.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <B8D361DF.37767%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405173809.0288c1a0@pop.wizard.net>

Following are excerpt from original post by John Kwon and reply by Tod 
Glenn, interspersed with your humble correspondent's remarks.
> > Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.
> > Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally
> > ensued.
>
>Yes, the pursuit.  What you've been saving your cavalry for.
Well, I agree somewhat.  I think that in classical and preclassical times, 
a lot of the vanquished were killed.  But most of them not during 
pursuit.  Most of them were slaughtered as prisoners.

As for our progenitors being more bloodthirsty than us, I doubt that I 
understand your statement quite the way you meant it, Tod.  You've 
elsewhere made plain that you think people tend to be people regardless of 
costume or nation or other things.  Like century.  Perhaps you were saying 
that during the pursuit phase of a battle, our progenitors did more killing 
than we do today during the pursuit phase?  I myself think just as many of 
us today are just as bloodthirsty and genocidal as we ever were in 
yesteryear.  The major difference is that today, the people who are trying 
to stop that sort of thing have more power than they did in the past.

(The good news is that there was a signing of a truce today between the 
rebels in Angola and the government, and the next step is the rebels will 
be turning in their arms.  While I doubt the peace will be perfect, this is 
pretty historic.  They've been fighting for a quarter of a century.  I 
admire anyone who can put the desire for vengeance behind them and live in 
peace with their former enemy.  Good luck to them.)

> >
> > We've talked about it before, but the Dupuy curve shows
> > weapon lethality shooting through the ceiling while
> > battlefield deaths keep going down.  We're scattering,
> > running, etc.  And we're not willing to engage face to face,
> > human against human (what is a Predator with Hellfire,
> > anyway: a one-way killing machine).
>
>I'm going to have to read "Understanding War" again.  It's been too long.
I recommend 'Numbers, Prediction & War' by Dupuy.  He certainly has the 
statistics there, including that charming devil, graphs.  I would provide a 
link to it on Amazon, but it would be best to go to Loren Wiseman's site at 
http://www.io.com/~lkw/ and follow his link to Amazon.  That way he makes a 
little money towards the Free The Storage Bin Seven Fund.  :->


> > I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> > survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> > war.

I can't buy into that at all, John.  Sorry.  Wars seem no more omnipresent 
today than they were in classical times.  The only relationships I would 
draw are the motivation for vengeance that connects the survivors to a mass 
slaughter, and Malthusian effects of reducing population pressure by 
reducing population.  Two forces that relationships that seem in opposition 
to each other.  Even if you massacre _all_ your enemy, even the children 
below age six, you will put yourself high on the rest of the world's 
Enemies To Destroy list.  There will come the day you are on the losing 
side in a war, and genocide is not a precedent that you'd like to have around.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <B8D3629C.3776C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:18 PM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
>on 4/5/02 2:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
>
> > In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear
> > devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and
> > convincing reasons for it.
>
>MAD


But mutual destruction is not assured.  One side would have to win a 
years-long naval campaign in order to deliver its nuclear warheads against 
all the appropriate targets.  Strephon, from the comfort of his Capital 
doesn't fear in the least for his own safety or his families in the event 
of nuclear exchange with the Zhodani.  And the Vargr Extents are such a 
hotheaded place that I cannot be convinced all the nuclear warheads that 
have been in that region for centuries were never used due to its leaders' 
very enlightened view about protecting civilization.  As the Sword Worlders 
should have nuked whoever they were ticked at many times over by now.  And 
the Aslan prize honor well above their own individual lives.  Aside from 
cultural biases toward or away nuclear warfare, there have just been so 
many _individual_ sophonts with their fingers on the button in different 
times and places that it should have happened many times by now.

And in a way, the game's authors agree with that notion.  But only in 
general.  There seems to be a lack of specific worlds that have actually 
been thoroughly nuked over to go with the general history of 
destruction.  Let me go through all the relevant canonical evidence that 
come to my (sputtering and unreliable) memory to see what each one in turn 
makes me think about how MAD affected things.

The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:
The Ancients War
Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani
Presumably the N Interstellar wars
Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night
Very early in Zhodani history
Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) from 
on Darrian

At least I think it was nukes with Darrian.  Or something just as 
devastating, so the MAD concept would still apply.

I can easily accept that enough time has passed since nuclear weapons were 
used by the Ancients that we shouldn't look for reduced populations or 
uninhabitable areas due to them.  But their war is an example of none of 
the sides being deterred by MAD.

The war against the Ziru Sirka should have left marks on various planets 
that would have been mentioned elsewhere in canon.  It is an example of 
just how geographically vast wars between interstellar powers are, and how 
that makes MAD unlikely.

There don't seem to be any worlds still showing mentionable signs of 
nuclear weapons from the N Instellar Wars.  Ditto for examples from the 
Long Night.

Zhodane's problem is so long ago that it is surprising its memory still 
leaves such an indelible impression on Zhodani culture.

Darrian seems to be a good canonical instance of nuclear warfare happening 
specifically somewhere, not just in a general way to somebody.

Oh, there's that nuclear blowup instigated by the Ine Givar but that seems 
more of an isolated terrorist incident than a war.  Or at least nothing 
that you can really apply the concept of MAD to.

I find it hard to believe there are no famous specific examples of worlds 
in the Core sector being "razed" by nukes dropped by one of the Barracks 
Emperors or wannabes.  Civil wars tend to be the least civil, as the old 
saying goes.

If one goes forward with the entire post-Assassination timeline, then it 
sure didn't take any of the sides long to start wiping out anything they 
felt like.  Which makes it harder to believe that MAD was holding other 
sophonts back during all the previous centuries of various conflicts.

This all leads me to believe that MAD isn't an effective strategy against a 
geographically _very_ dispersed opponent.  And that there is a disconnect 
between the number of specific locales in canon that have suffered nuclear 
devastation and the amount of nuclear devastation we're led to believe 
actually has happened.

There are also quite a few canonical instances of balkanized worlds or 
neighboring worlds that are on the brink of total nuclear warfare in the 
current timeline.  If such tensions have careened towards the brink so 
often in current times, how could they have been so consistently avoided 
during the pasts of all the locations that canon visits and shows us.

Hope the above was coherent enough.  I wrote it in rushed bits and pieces 
while running around the house doing other stuff.  Comments and reasoned 
debate welcome, as always.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020405152015.A19842@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>
 <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405192605.02886990@pop.wizard.net>

Bob Uhl quotes me then responds:
> > I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.
>
>Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.

Not sure who you're referring to.  There are people who have unreasoning or 
disproportionate fear of either end, true.  And I think a lot of people 
have a fear of having the things around their abode, particularly if they 
have children.  There are enough statistics about accidents in the home and 
impulsive domestic shootings to make that seem reasonable attitude, even if 
you don't fully agree with or support it.  The point being that it's 
probably a healthy survivial response to avoid having guns in the house 
just like it's a healthy survival response to avoid working in coal mines, 
but YMMV.  I am honestly sympathetic to more than one side in the gun 
control debate, and think we're at the stage where reasonable people can 
agree to disagree.  (BTW, I don't any firearms but I love shooting rifles 
and shotguns.  :-)

Hey.  Wouldn't fear of a bullet-'proof' jacket be more like being afraid of 
a jacket?  You almost fooled me for a minute there.  LOL  :->

There are members of the TML who are also proud (some, even rabid  :-) 
members of the TML Rod & Gun Club.  And there are some who are not.  The 
membership lists are unlikely to ever be altered, and I never meant to get 
into a debate over whether all people who [like/hate] guns are idiotic 
sickos or not.

I think both TML Rod & Gun Clubbers and others who are opposed can all 
agree that _some_ people who own guns, and carry guns around, are moved 
primarily by psychological need to find a surrogate or maybe just plain 
anger, and not by some other need that the rest of us agree or disagree 
about the reasonableness of.  Sometimes a cigar is _not_ just a cigar, and 
sometimes a gun is not just a gun.  Other times, they are.  My Freud remark 
was merely an opportunistic bit of humor intended to give everyone a laugh 
and lighten things up for all who read it.

I've probably prattled on longer than is necessary and will shut up now, 
and post no further on the topic.  Unless it's a joke.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020405.143525.-122687.4.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405194636.028fd650@pop.wizard.net>

>With me, being on the giving end is like putting on a warm fuzzy jacket
>on a cold day.
>Makes me feel warm all over.
>Which is why I sold my rifle.
>
>Turokan

LOL!

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020406083804.B25929@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405194804.028abec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tim Little japed:

>Near-c rock devastation is so much more effective?  <grin,duck,run>

Sounds like you'd better duck and cover.  <G>

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:46:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:46:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405192605.02886990@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D3852E.377A4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 4:41 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

This has wandered off topic.  Please move this to tml-chat or tml-guntech as
appropriate.

Rule of thumb.  There should be an ObTrav.

> Bob Uhl quotes me then responds:
>>> I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.
>> 
>> Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>> blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>> strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.
> 
> Not sure who you're referring to.  There are people who have unreasoning or
> disproportionate fear of either end, true.  And I think a lot of people
> have a fear of having the things around their abode, particularly if they
> have children.  There are enough statistics about accidents in the home and
> impulsive domestic shootings to make that seem reasonable attitude, even if
> you don't fully agree with or support it.  The point being that it's
> probably a healthy survivial response to avoid having guns in the house
> just like it's a healthy survival response to avoid working in coal mines,
> but YMMV.  I am honestly sympathetic to more than one side in the gun
> control debate, and think we're at the stage where reasonable people can
> agree to disagree.  (BTW, I don't any firearms but I love shooting rifles
> and shotguns.  :-)
> 
> Hey.  Wouldn't fear of a bullet-'proof' jacket be more like being afraid of
> a jacket?  You almost fooled me for a minute there.  LOL  :->
> 
> There are members of the TML who are also proud (some, even rabid  :-)
> members of the TML Rod & Gun Club.  And there are some who are not.  The
> membership lists are unlikely to ever be altered, and I never meant to get
> into a debate over whether all people who [like/hate] guns are idiotic
> sickos or not.
> 
> I think both TML Rod & Gun Clubbers and others who are opposed can all
> agree that _some_ people who own guns, and carry guns around, are moved
> primarily by psychological need to find a surrogate or maybe just plain
> anger, and not by some other need that the rest of us agree or disagree
> about the reasonableness of.  Sometimes a cigar is _not_ just a cigar, and
> sometimes a gun is not just a gun.  Other times, they are.  My Freud remark
> was merely an opportunistic bit of humor intended to give everyone a laugh
> and lighten things up for all who read it.
> 
> I've probably prattled on longer than is necessary and will shut up now,
> and post no further on the topic.  Unless it's a joke.
> 
> --Laning
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <20020405.170459.-184723.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Laning

On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 19:46:54 -0500 laning <laning@wizard.net> writes:
> 
> >With me, being on the giving end is like putting on a warm fuzzy 
> >jacket on a cold day. Makes me feel warm all over.
> >Which is why I sold my rifle.
> >
> >Turokan
> 
> LOL!
> 
> --Laning

The US Army trained me well... 

Just don't give me a weapon, I change like Dr. Jeckle [sp] and Mr. Hyde
[sp].

However, if you want me on your team - please do :~)

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020405224405.6103A27A92@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020405164806.00a49df0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:20:15 -0700, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

>Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.

Put me down as afraid of guns, then.  Being in the presence of a real, 
functioning weapon makes me nervous.  In most circumstances, I would refuse 
to even hold one.

To some extent, this is probably because I was never acclimated to them as 
a youth, through hunting or whatever.  But I am similarly nervous around 
anything that can cause death or serious injury, even/especially by 
accident or negligence.  For example, I used to work at a gas station; part 
of my job was refilling propane cylinders from the big tank out back.  I 
hated it.  The stuff was cryo-cold, flammable, explosive, and under high 
pressure.  I was trained for it, but I still hated it.

There's also the "with great power comes great responsibility" angle.  I do 
not want or need the power to maim or kill another human being, or the 
responsibility that necessarily comes with it.  At this time and place, I 
am happier not having to handle guns.  (And yes, I'm fully aware of how 
privileged I am that I've never had to pick up a deadly weapon, let alone 
use one in anger.)

It's a lot harder to kill someone with a jacket.  Definitely not 
impossible, but jackets are not primarily designed to apply deadly 
force.  A firearm is, and I grant them all the respect they are due as a 
result.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] G:Ground Forces queston
Message-ID: <B8D3910E.30E8%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

Hi,

In the Grav vehicle design section, duct fans are listed as having a
positive energy amount, instead of negative.  Is this an error or do they
actually act as power plants?

Thanks,

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:41:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:41:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
References: <20020405194007.A9EDC27A7A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CAE5228.FED9D9B0@earthlink.net>

Thank you, Messers Brick, Scheets, Whipsnade, and all others
who offered an answer to my question.

I recently found the original 1981 character sheet for
my favorite character of all time. He went through SORAG
as part of his pre-game career and had picked up the skill
of "Holster".

While I best remember the item from The Deathworld
Trilogy novels Mr. Whipsnade referred to, I do recall
seeing it for the first time on good ol' Wild Wild West.

Personally, though, I really like the one used by the
Pyrrans in the trilogy.

I really don't see it being practical, given Harrison's
"power holster" had the strength to rip through rough-woven
cloth,  especially since the sidearm it propelled into
the wearer's hand in less than one second, fired a large
caliber HEAP round, and had no trigger guard.

Either a White Dwarf or a Space Gamer mag actually
had CT stats for them. Ah, for the days of being a
Traveller munchkin! <grin>

For those of you who may be interested in these works
by Harry Harrison, may I suggest the following site:

http://www.iol.ie/~carrollm/hh/n01-01.htm

It has some details on the various publications of the
adventures of the trilogy's hero, psionic gambler Jason
dinAlt, including a new trilogy published only for the 
Russian market!  :(

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 18:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri Apr  5 18:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
Message-ID: <001101c1dd0f$c57c7340$f619f7a5@pctframen>

Sorta on topic for this subject, in that it deals with an incident where the
communication delay was vital. As usual, when thinking about Traveller
communication, a pre-20th Century example is useful:

"[Louis Remme, a cowboy] was at Sacramento, California, on Feb. 2nd [1855]
when he received a draft ion the Adams and Company Bank of San Francisco for
twelve thousand dollars. Unfortunately, he delayed cashing the draft until
the following morning. Meanwhile, the San Francisco bank had become a
financial casualty overnight. This failure caused its branch banks,
including the one in Sacramento, to close their doors immediately...
    "But, and his thoughts were racing, there was still a chance. It was a
slim possibility, but worth a try...The San Francisco firm had a branch in
Portland, Oregon, seven hundred miles away. The northern branch would not
close until word reached there from San Francisco; and that word would have
to go by sea, the only direct line of communication with the Columbia River
region at that time. The ship...was scheduled to depart from San Francisco
that morning. Its sailing time was six days. His one long chance was to beat
the boat to Oregon and cash his draft before the Portland bank received the
order to close its doors...."

[Source: _The Rawhide Years_, Glen R Vernam]

Remme made it on time, just beating the boat. The ObTravs are interesting;
presumably, buy/sell orders to a brokerage would operate in a similar
manner, perhaps allowing the PCs to beat their own order. Situations similar
to the one Renne faced could still crop up, especially in marginal systems
that only get official mail once a week.

(Of course, the probability that a modern common-stock corporation could
operate given Traveller communications is slim, but what the hey...)

Fred "Hell for Leather" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 18:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri Apr  5 18:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <3CAE2C1B.9030204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020406023936.E756627A91@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/05/02 at 03:58 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

>> Oh, I like this...
>> 
>> How about a character doing the same?
>> Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her past, and late in
>> a game spring it on your group.
>>

>All the time. In  Eris' Akus Moby pbem all the characters started out
> knowing nothing about each other...we only know what our characters
>have  told the others, in some cases that's probably just the tip of
>the iceberg.

>All of us have some secrets, I'm sure.

That statement is true...or false. <weg>

I will say that some of the juiciest secrets were being carried by
characters that have been orphaned. Of the "cousins and partners"
we've had Martan and Sarge disappear in a misjump, Sir Jason leave to
direct a play, and April simply not disembark from the ship when it
reached Kurzu. But, Ricardo doesn't have any secrets does he? <g>

Eris


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
References: <20020405194005.BABCE27A79@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <007601c1dd18$0a3ce0c0$945d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while
> desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to
> perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.

Yep.  My WWII veteran friend has mentioned how when his company were just
about out of ammunition and surrounded, they were preparing to fix their
bayonets and die.  Fortunately for them, relief came just in the nick of
time.  They fired their last ammunition at the Japanese as they retreated.

> From: Matthew Bond
> The principal aim of a bayonet charge is to cause the flight or surrender
> of the defenders of a position.

This seems to have been the point of a bayonet charge my friend described to
me.  The charge was about thirty metres long, incidentally - more or less
how far you could see through the jungle.

> As soon as the initial terror subsided he (and now I can't recall exactly
> which) either threw down his weapon and ran for his life, or threw down
> his weapon and surrendered.

An account of an Australian bayonet charge in the official WWII histories
describe five armed Japanese soldiers just standing around squealing while a
single Australian soldier stabbed them to death.  Clearly, shock happens.

> To quote Corporal Jones in Dad's Army... "Cold Steel, Sir. They don't
> like it up 'em!"

A comment in the Australian histories suggest that the Japanese forces
didn't like facing Australian bayonet charges.  Apparently, all that
practice shouting "Banzai!" didn't actually translate into a willingness to
stand their ground against some other mad sod with a big knife on a stick.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:03:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:03:51 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <007701c1dd18$0af3fbc0$945d8690@computer>

> From: Bruce Johnson 
> One sentence that engenders fear and panic in every starship owner's
> heart: 'Bwap compliance inspector.'

Would it help if your ship's accountant was a Virushi?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] FF&S Help
In-Reply-To: <001101c1dd0f$c57c7340$f619f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAAEGNCOAA.redroach@pobox.com>

Does anyone know of a good FF&S spreadsheet for designing aircraft?

Or even better does anyone out there want to help me design a VTOL craft
using FF&S?

I have some basic specs, picture, etc...
I just HELP

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
Message-ID: <200204060325.DLH01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Or Unobtanium, maybe.  I seem to remember some science 
fiction a ways back talking about firing osmium needles at 
hypervelocities...

http://www.sciencenews.org/20020406/fob2.asp

So much for diamond coating of metals.  Maybe that axe that 
Laning's character wants to carry is coated with osmium.

ObTrav:  Giving things names like "bonded superdense" might 
be OK while I'm designing Striker vehicles, but I am always 
wondering, "superdense what?"  It's nice to know that I could 
extrapolate and say, "it's osmium, silly".
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:34:02 2002
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <3ca99b9a.4755858@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20405.185820.1a4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I want an L5 space station, then I can not only declare independence,
> but address communications to world leaders as "foolish
> Earth-beings!".
>
> And if anybody objects, well, I'm at the top of the gravity well and
> there are lots of rocks in space...

Not handy to L5. And especially not in quantities sufficient to defend
you against the folks on Earth after you send the *first* one at them.
That overgrown tin can is a lot more vulnerable than Earth.

You could hurt Earth. They could *kill* you. 

Say a pattern of nukes a thousand or so km from you. That'd overload
the solar flare shielding by quite a bit. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:37:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Trista)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:37:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
References: <200204060325.DLH01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAE6BBC.D28B1C82@the-spa.com>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> Or Unobtanium, maybe.  I seem to remember some science
> fiction a ways back talking about firing osmium needles at
> hypervelocities...

Hmmm, that sounds like the book 'Forlorn Hope'; mercenaries use
something called a 'cone bore rifle', the barrel of which is supposedly
of diamond and fires an osmium needle which is compressed as it travels
through the barrel and reaches hypervelocites. Had them in cannon size
too as I recall.

Now I have to go hunt up my copy and check. LOL Curiosity.

Siani
-- 
"Virisque Adquirit Eundo"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <200204060325.DLH01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3B0C0.377EB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 7:25 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Or Unobtanium, maybe.  I seem to remember some science
> fiction a ways back talking about firing osmium needles at
> hypervelocities...

David Drake, IIRC, in his stories


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <3CAE6BBC.D28B1C82@the-spa.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3B11B.377EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 7:30 PM, Trista at asmahan@the-spa.com wrote:

> Hmmm, that sounds like the book 'Forlorn Hope'; mercenaries use
> something called a 'cone bore rifle', the barrel of which is supposedly
> of diamond and fires an osmium needle which is compressed as it travels
> through the barrel and reaches hypervelocites. Had them in cannon size
> too as I recall.

That goes back to the old Gerlich AT guns of WWII.  I think the squeeze bore
has pretty much fallen out of favor, replaced by the discarding sabot.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 20:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 20:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] pilot specs
Message-ID: <20020405.205600.-3247.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hi all,

This is for anyone who might know.

What are the real life size minimum and maximum hight requirements for a
combat fighter pilot?
Obviously if you can't sit in the seat, or reach the pedals fully pressed
down you're out.

ObTrav:
These requirements will effect fighter cockpits for world based craft,
and possibly starship fighters and small craft.

How would this effect pilot skills in the 57th century?
Would a GM allow a short, or very large character in the pilot seat?
Would it be safe?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <005f01c1dd29$f7b338c0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "laning" <laning@wizard.net>
> The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:
> The Ancients War
> Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani
> Presumably the N Interstellar wars
> Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night
> Very early in Zhodani history
> Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) from
> on Darrian
>
> At least I think it was nukes with Darrian.  Or something just as
> devastating, so the MAD concept would still apply.
>
> Darrian seems to be a good canonical instance of nuclear warfare happening
> specifically somewhere, not just in a general way to somebody.

The cause of the Darrian Collapse wasn't nuclear weapons, it was the
Maghiz... the after effects of an innocent science project to survey the
Primary Star of Darrian, that inadvertently caused it to undergo a Nova-like
hiccup...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com> <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <2b1tauotjjqq4c8v1v1vn5isvpbofrd549@4ax.com>

On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 10:51:56 -0800, Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

>on 4/5/02 9:22 AM, KevinC at kevinc@cnetech.com wrote:
>> Tod,
>>=20
>> Will the new TML archive be accessible by web search engines and
>> bots/spiders?
>>=20
>> If yes, then you need to do something to protect the email addresses =
of
>> anyone whose posts are in the archive.
>>=20
>> Otherwise "harvesters" will grab them all, and spam the good ( still
>> active) ones.
>
>I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

Thank you for thinking of doing so.  I wonder if it might be easiest
to simply remove the actual e-mail address and leave the user's name.
=46or instance, on this reply, all the addresses which would be seen
would be "Tod Glenn" and "KevinC".  Neither would be much risk from a
harvester standpoint and yet they would easily be plainly read.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020405231806.02bc3a70@mail.earthlink.net>


So is the Kknife a special K'kree weapon? :)

Jimmy Simpson                        nimrodd@mail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405212730.024a9190@mail.verizon.net>

Hmm, my first reply got bounced, so here 'tis again.  :-)

Hi David,

Check out:

http://home.earthlink.net/~backslash/

Best regards,

Charles McKnight 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:30:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:30:06 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <000b01c1dc7a$655e8a60$f000a8c0@imogen>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020405224838.04445dd0@rollanet.org>

At 04:59 PM 4/4/02, you wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> > I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor
> > training.
>
>I used to work a a company that tried for (and got) ISO 9000/9001
>certification: it was easy-peasy!
>
>1) Have a documented procedure for everything
>2) Make sure all staff know where the latest  versions  of  those
>    documents are (ie. where on the PC server)
>
>The fact that we didn't actually follow those  procedures  (close
>scrutiny would have revealed they were unworkable anyhow)  didn't
>seem to matter.
>
>Its just a case of understanding the game.
>

Funny, the auditor who is checking the company I work for keeps wanting to 
see actual proof that we are following our procedures.


--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>

From: laning <laning@wizard.net>

     "The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:"

Sir,

     My take on your list:

     "The Ancients War"

     Perhaps.  Gramps and the Kiddies and the Grandkiddies had access to 
devices that make nukes look like waterballoons.  They still may have used 
them, no weapon is really ever obsolete.

     "Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani."

     Canon is littered with references to the Vilani "way" of war being 
brutally pragmatic.  IMHO, the Ziru Sirka would have used nukes early and 
often.  Then again, I have trouble believing the canonical description of 
the Interstellar War anyway.
     GT:RoF has the Vilani visiting Terra after the 2nd War.  These 
representatives of the ZS must have been either brain dead or traitors not 
to bring an accurate report back to Dingir from Sol.  After being shown a 
~10 billion humans on an industrialized world, the "brutally pragmatic" 
Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt.
     All the explanations about population levels, internal Vilani politics, 
blah, blah, blah, are just liberal doses of handwavium.  With the 
superioroty in maneuver drives and missile tech that RoF claims for them, 
the Ziro Sirka would have, could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it 
glowed.

     "Presumably the N Interstellar wars."

     The ZS certainly, "scorched earth" tactics during their long retreat.  
The TC maybe, after all they want to colonize and/or rule.  No need to mess 
up the planets you're taking over.

     "Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night."

     Agreed.  See the "Sack of Gasikan(?)", a world heavily nuked by the 
Vargr that recovers to found and lead a genocidal minded, anti-Vargr pocket 
empire.

     "Very early in Zhodani history."

     No.  Two Dark Ages in Zho history, one when a low tech "universal" 
empire collapses, ala Rome, China, etc. and another when space missions to 
Zhodane's moon brings back a dormant Ancient bio-weapon.  No nuke exchanges 
mentioned or intimated at all.
     This doesn't mean that the Zho's haven't used them on occasion 
elsewhere in the Consulate.

     "Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) 
from on Darrian."

     No.  The Maghurz(sp) was the result of two experiments involving Tanis, 
Darrian's primary, that horribly interacted with each other.  Pre-contact 
Darrian history was suprisingly peaceful, for humans.

     A few you forgot to mention;
     Kuzu - The Aslan's Second World War was nuclear, the Third one, which 
the arrival of "Pathfinder" prevented, was going to nuclear too.  Shame it 
didn't happen.
     Asmodeus - A balkanized Zho world in the Marches had a nuclear exchange 
sometime in the 1090's.  Guess the Thought Police were all out getting 
doughnuts.
     Unknown - IIRC, there's a balkanized world mentioned somewhere in canon 
that went nucelar.  The population there lived in domes and levels took 
quite a nose dive before the Marines could intervene.

     "This all leads me to believe that MAD isn't an effective strategy
against a geographically _very_ dispersed opponent."

     Perhaps, or maybe it's just damper technology.  I don't have Striker to 
hand, but IIRC dampers pretty much draw the fangs out of nukes.  How 
easy/hard would it be for PDFs to maintain damper coverage for an entire 
world?  Could such coverage be projected from orbit by naval vessels?  If 
so, the 3I could show up above some balkanized world with a nasty squabble 
taking place and declare a "no-nukes" zone with a couple of orbitting 
escorts.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3DF55.37819%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 10:59 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:

> "The Ancients War"
> 
> Perhaps.  Gramps and the Kiddies and the Grandkiddies had access to
> devices that make nukes look like waterballoons.  They still may have used
> them, no weapon is really ever obsolete.
> 
[snip]

Then of course we haven't considered nuclear dampers.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3B11B.377EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CAE6BBC.D28B1C82@the-spa.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406023413.0396cdf0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn says:
>That goes back to the old Gerlich AT guns of WWII.  I think the squeeze bore
>has pretty much fallen out of favor, replaced by the discarding sabot.

Whoa.  Thanks for the reminder.  I'd completely forgotten about those 
things, it's been so long.  Yeah, I was always pretty dubious about them.

The only ObTrav I can think of is that there is no ObTrav for the simple 
reason that firearms design in the 57th century has long since evolved to 
be as good as it can possibly get and every theoretical new twist has 
already been examined, and tried, and tried again.  Local conditions may 
vary from world to world, but I am talking about overall.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
In-Reply-To: <001101c1dd0f$c57c7340$f619f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406024845.0396aa80@pop.wizard.net>

Fred Ramen quotes a fascinating story about a Old Time Westerner getting 
700 miles in six days to a bank branch before the bank learned from its 
headquarters that it was kaput:

>(Of course, the probability that a modern common-stock corporation could
>operate given Traveller communications is slim, but what the hey...)

Stock exchanges on each world will tend to only trade shares of 
corporations that do their primary business in that system.  Megacorps will 
trade at a glacial pace compared to something like our own New York Stock 
Exchange.  You will make an appointment to meet with your buy/seller of 
Ling Standard Products, for instance.  And the buyer will be required to 
sign some forms to prove they've done a due diligence study of the risks, 
blah, blah.

Also, the megacorps and other star-spanning corporations will set up local 
subsidiaries for each world where they have significant operational 
presence or financial stake and the shares traded on the exchanges of that 
world will only be shares of the subsidiary, not the owning megacorp.

That's my fast answer.  Haven't pondered it beyond that.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <005f01c1dd29$f7b338c0$52200050@matt>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406025432.03968d20@pop.wizard.net>

Matt Bond sets the record straight:

>The cause of the Darrian Collapse wasn't nuclear weapons, it was the
>Maghiz... the after effects of an innocent science project to survey the
>Primary Star of Darrian, that inadvertently caused it to undergo a Nova-like
>hiccup...

Thank you, sir.  I knew it was much more exotic than nuclear warfare.  And 
I completely got wrong the angle of it being a war of any kind.  Yes, it 
seems to me that the Maghiz thing left a lot of speculation about the 
Grandfather or someone deciding not to let anyone go past TL 15.  If you 
prefer the secret conspiracy view of things, that is.  Or it could have 
been just one more example of mankind's hubris being too self destructive, 
like Ikaros having the wax melt on his wings.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 00:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406030132.03931080@pop.wizard.net>

Larsen Whipsnade very helpfully responded to and improved my list of 
nuclear warfare and MAD related canon:
<<<snip most of it>>>
>    Asmodeus - A balkanized Zho world in the Marches had a nuclear 
> exchange sometime in the 1090's.  Guess the Thought Police were all out 
> getting doughnuts.

Doughnuts, LOL!


>     Unknown - IIRC, there's a balkanized world mentioned somewhere in 
> canon that went nucelar.  The population there lived in domes and levels 
> took quite a nose dive before the Marines could intervene.
>
>     "This all leads me to believe that MAD isn't an effective strategy
>against a geographically _very_ dispersed opponent."
>
>     Perhaps, or maybe it's just damper technology.  I don't have Striker 
> to hand, but IIRC dampers pretty much draw the fangs out of nukes.  How 
> easy/hard would it be for PDFs to maintain damper coverage for an entire 
> world?  Could such coverage be projected from orbit by naval vessels?  If 
> so, the 3I could show up above some balkanized world with a nasty 
> squabble taking place and declare a "no-nukes" zone with a couple of 
> orbitting escorts.
I brought it up a little while ago with a friend who was over for face to 
face gaming.  His immediate reaction was "nuclear dampers".  He felt the 
same way I do about things being far too dispersed for MAD to make enough 
sense.  Well, actually his first reaction was "It's against the Imperial 
Code of War, nobody would ever get away with it" but then I explained my 
concern wasn't keeping order internally but grand strategy between nations 
at the level of interstellar empires.

I grabbed my trusty old (first edition, so no power points) Book 5 - High 
Guard and we looked up nuclear dampers.  First available at TL 12.  You 
have to get all the way from TL 6 or 7 to TL 12 without them, but still 
dealing nukes.  Repulsor bays come in at TL 10, and that will help a tiny 
bit.  Jump drives start at TL 9, so you have to get from 9 to 12 with the 
capability for interstellar delivery of nukes.  It would have been such a 
good answer too.  IIRC, either MT or second edition High Guard or maybe 
both did do some substantial revisions to TLs for weapons and 
screens.  Perhaps that will provide some support to the nuclear dampers 
theory.  But I don't think so.

The search continues, I guess.

--Laning



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 00:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 00:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEFOCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20406.005223.1e4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The weapon I'm trying to figure out is an equalizer for pedestrians.
> Anything that will actually stop or otherwise neutralize a moving vehicle
> that is about to violate a crosswalk will have a danger space that includes
> the pedestrian (like a LAW, M203, Panzerfaust, etc.) at typical engagement
> ranges.  Anything safe for the pedestrian will not actually stop the vehicle
> before impact -- the .44 magnum will shut down the engine, but the car will
> keep on rolling.  Many weapons will neutralize the driver, but again, the
> car will keep going.  It's a poser.

You need a personal force shield with the ability to isolate internal
and external inertial frames. Or else the ability to "lock" to bedrock
on impact.

I suspect it'd be "simpler" to do the former. But not by a lot.

Basicly, any momentum transfer to the volume within the field occurs
*uniformly*. So, since the forces are applied equal to all particles,
they don't have any apparent effect (much like it doesn't matter how
strong the gravity is *while* you are falling, just when you hit :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 01:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 01:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE9C2B.34116%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20406.005748.6n2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/1/02 10:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>> 
>> I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that difficult to
>> build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate power
>> battery.  
>
> I have yet to be convinced that such things will work, and be at all
> effective.  Particularly as the  strength of burst will be inversely
> proportional to the to the square of the distance.  Has anyone actually seen
> a demonstration where this works?  It should be rather easy to test.

The effects *depend* on non-linear effects. And the strength at a
distance depends a lot on the orientation.

Also, remember, the effect is *not* due to the strength of the field
(well, not entirely). It's due to the sudden *change* in field strength
too. 

> Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical martial
> arts 'death touch'.

I wouldn't expect one to have any great range. But if you can hide it
in a brief case, 10 meters is *plenty*.

>> I've a few comments and questions here:
>> 
>> 1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this
>> shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be
>> overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP?
>
> Gauss weapons won't need any complex and delicate circuitry if they're
> anything like railguns.  I don't expect them to be vulnerable to EMP anymore
> than a 1950s Chevy would be.

Yeah, I meant to comment on that myself.

"coilguns" will need some high speeds switchging circuitry. But
frankly, the power levels and timescales are such that EMP would be
minor compared to the fields inside the weapon every time it "cycled". 

"Railguns" don't have any circuitry more complicated than a light
switch. *NO* electronics in the weapon aside from any sighting gear.
And the magnetic fields the thing uses would make them have to be
mostly EMP prof anyway. 

EMP would affect them about as much as it'd affect a nail stuck to a
strong magnet. And for similar reasons. The *local* field would far
exceed the EMP.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 01:13:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 01:13:06 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701795.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20406.010602.9U3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn writes:
>> on 4/1/02 2:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
>> > 
>> > Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In
>> > fact, gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing
>> > the thing will short out all of its electronics, not to mention other
>> > nearby electronics. 
>> 
>> What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?
>
> Presumably, one strong, sharp pulse lasting roughly the length of time it 
> takes
> for a bullet to go the length of the barrel.  Not immediately inclined to
> figure out the total emitted energy, but I rather doubt that it's small.

It'd better be. Otherwise the gun is wasting energy emitting the noise.
The magnetic field will be constant. The electrical current flow is DC.
Though a rather sharp pulse, which may have a fair amount of ringing.

> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.

I have trouble picturing a coilgun as being *practical* in a man
portable size. Railguns are almost as bad, but at least you don't need
to switch all that power *repeatedly* and with precise timing dozens of
times per shot.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406025432.03968d20@pop.wizard.net>
References: <005f01c1dd29$f7b338c0$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020406065801.009f48d0@mindspring.com>

At 02:57 AM 4/6/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Matt Bond sets the record straight:
>
>>The cause of the Darrian Collapse wasn't nuclear weapons, it was the
>>Maghiz... the after effects of an innocent science project to survey the
>>Primary Star of Darrian, that inadvertently caused it to undergo a Nova-like
>>hiccup...
>
>Thank you, sir.  I knew it was much more exotic than nuclear warfare.  And 
>I completely got wrong the angle of it being a war of any kind.  Yes, it 
>seems to me that the Maghiz thing left a lot of speculation about the 
>Grandfather or someone deciding not to let anyone go past TL 15.  If you 
>prefer the secret conspiracy view of things, that is.  Or it could have 
>been just one more example of mankind's hubris being too self destructive, 
>like Ikaros having the wax melt on his wings.

I think the Maghiz was just another example of the Law of Unintended 
Consequences.  Better known as Murphy's Law.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204061516.DME00009@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug writes
>I think the Maghiz was just another example of the Law of 
>Unintended Consequences.  Better known as Murphy's Law.
>

BTW, I went looking around the web, and found another library 
data site, which had a bit on the Maghiz and the project that 
caused it.

http://www.seemann.ms/library/

Hopefully the owner of that site is on the TML somewhere...
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Combat Armor & Battle Dress
Message-ID: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>

--part1_19d.46939d.29e06ca1_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Hi,
   While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I discovered 
that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game (Imperial 
Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of the different 
models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
   Could someone help me out?
   Thanks :)
  -Ken Murphy-

--part1_19d.46939d.29e06ca1_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I discovered that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of the different models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Could someone help me out?
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_19d.46939d.29e06ca1_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>

From: laning <laning@wizard.net>

     "...looked up nuclear dampers.  First available at TL 12."

Sir,

     Well, that settles that theory.

     "You have to get all the way from TL 6 or 7 to TL 12 without them, but 
still dealing nukes.  Jump drives start at TL 9, so you have to get from 9 
to 12 with the capability for interstellar delivery of nukes."

     So until TL 12, MAD and geographical/astrographic dispersal are the 
trumps, usually.

     "It would have been such a good answer too.  IIRC, either MT or second 
edition High Guard or maybe both did do some substantial revisions to TLs 
for weapons and screens.  Perhaps that will provide some support to the 
nuclear dampers theory.  But I don't think so."

     The answer is a melange of MAD, dispersal, and dampers.  There are 
rarely single reasons for any given happenstance.
     I wonder, what if TL 12 is when dampers are small enough to allow them 
to be installed aboard ships?  Or the power requirements are finally 
"doable" in a hull?  Prior to TL 12, dampers could be massive, strategic 
systems that require multiple installations and oodles of generators.  At TL 
12, the technology gets miniaturized enough to be installed aboard ships, 
sort of like radar between the late 1930s and early 1940s.
     It's still a handwave, though.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 09:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20406.010602.9U3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 1:06 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.
> 
> I have trouble picturing a coilgun as being *practical* in a man
> portable size. Railguns are almost as bad, but at least you don't need
> to switch all that power *repeatedly* and with precise timing dozens of
> times per shot.

The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 09:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 09:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052324.g35NOjh06085@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <B8D46F07.37842%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 3:28 PM, Steven Hudson at shudson@lightspeed.ca wrote:

> 
> The K'kree seem to be the only major polity that believes in
> re-surfacing planets as a matter of policy. There's all sorts
> of amateurs that try and compete for the title, but mostly sanity
> (MAD) or cultural constraints interfere.
> 

I would expect that when it came to the K'kree, their opponents would adopt
the same attitude.  Something like the US policy on chemical weapons. "No
first use".  But if you use them, will give it right back and in spades.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 09:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 09:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn says:

[The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.]

Yes, and today, the power supply is much larger than can be carried.
We can get you a small battery made with an unobtanium core.

One problem that I see with a lot of sci-fi weapons is recoil. It's
a really nice idea to have a weapon that can fire a projectile at
4000 meters per second, but it's unlikely that we'll be able to
hold onto the weapon without a handwave generator.

In Traveller, I like to see weapons filling unique and obvious niches.

Gauss weapons are silent, and better at penetration than the ordinary 
slugthrower.  However, I feel that there should be a recoil penalty,
especially on full auto.  There are definitely recoil limits for 
humans (not just pain, but actually hitting something).

The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
from Book 4.  How about YTU?

In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a 
good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.

ObTrav: A Gauss weapon should be a better penetrator than a laser,
but the laser has no recoil.  I'm still trying to figure out the 
handwave that allows a plasma bolt to go more than a few centimeters
out of the barrel.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 11:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Seemann)
Date: Sat Apr  6 11:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E002330A27@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AA@mail.ahead.com>

Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:16:10 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

> BTW, I went looking around the web, and found another library 
> data site, which had a bit on the Maghiz and the project that 
> caused it.
> 
> http://www.seemann.ms/library/
> 
> Hopefully the owner of that site is on the TML somewhere...

I am, and BTW desperately trying to get time to do a major rewrite of
the site...

Did you want to ask me something?

Mark Seemann
mark@seemann.ms

"No matter how far you've come in the wrong direction - turn back!"
- Arabian proverb


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204061914.DML02410@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Mark Seemann" says
>
>I am, and BTW desperately trying to get time to do a major 
>rewrite of the site...
>
>Did you want to ask me something?
>

We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your 
site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which 
was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on 
the whole series of events?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 11:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr  6 11:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <B8D46F07.37842%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204052324.g35NOjh06085@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020406114851.009f8950@mindspring.com>

At 09:23 AM 4/6/02 -0800, you wrote:
>I would expect that when it came to the K'kree, their opponents would adopt
>the same attitude.  Something like the US policy on chemical weapons. "No
>first use".  But if you use them, will give it right back and in spades.

The actual policy is overwhelming response.  Hit is with *one* WMD, and we 
unload on you.  During the Persian Gulf war, the CIA found out that 
Saddam  was planning on using his chemical arsenal to slow down the units 
invading Kuwait. He was told, through neutral nations, that if he did that, 
every damn shack in Iraq would get a 30 kiloton kiss.

I imagine the Imperial policy towards the K'kree is similar..  "You go off 
on a single human world, and we will use you for Astroburger meat.  The Two 
Thousand Worlds will become the 2000 square feet, 'cause that is all your 
species will need.  What's worse, we'll let the Hivers in to play with you."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 12:01:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 12:01:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406145922.00cb7ee0@192.168.0.1>

At 12:41 PM 4/6/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Tod Glenn says:
[snip]
>The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
>from Book 4.  How about YTU?

I think people like Snubs because they have HEAP & HE ammo.


>In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a
>good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
>been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.

T4 has 'em.


----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  "When you see
a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not
wait until he has struck to crush him."
--- Franklin D. Roosevelt
----------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 12:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Seemann)
Date: Sat Apr  6 12:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
In-Reply-To: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E002330A28@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com>

Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:14:38 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

> We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your 
> site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which 
> was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on 
> the whole series of events?

While I can't remember the sequence of event, my library data tells me
there were indeed two projects: The Abh and Udh projects.

These library entries were taken from the Classic Traveller Alien Module
8: Darrians, but I can't remember the rest of the story. However, if you
really want me to, I can go look it up.

Mark Seemann
mark@seemann.ms

"No matter how far you've come in the wrong direction - turn back!"
- Arabian proverb


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 13:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 13:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B8D4A39D.37862%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 9:41 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@comcast.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn says:
> 
> [The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.]
> 
> Yes, and today, the power supply is much larger than can be carried.
> We can get you a small battery made with an unobtanium core.

If one follows the trend in batteries, they are becoming smaller and lighter
for the same power, and thus by extrapolation, batteries of the same size
and weight are becoming more powerful.
> 
> One problem that I see with a lot of sci-fi weapons is recoil. It's
> a really nice idea to have a weapon that can fire a projectile at
> 4000 meters per second, but it's unlikely that we'll be able to
> hold onto the weapon without a handwave generator.

But while projectile energy is a function of the mass of the projectile and
velocity squared, recoil is more a function of momentum.  A small,
lightweight projectile of high velocity has less felt recoil than than a
slower, more massive projectile of the same energy. Plus, with gauss
weapons, there is no added effect of the escaping gasses to add to recoil.

In a conventional firearm free recoils is defined as:

RE= Mg *((MbVb+MpVp)/Mg)^2 in Joules

where:  Mg is the mass of the gun
        Vg is the mass of the bullet
        Mp is the mass of the propellant
        Vp is the velocity of the propellant.  Typically
        noted as a constant (1200 m/s)

Let look at a gauss weapon versus conventional weapon.  In this case we'll
examine a 7.62x51mm rifle versus a gauss version with the same velocity and
bullet weight.

7.62x51mm M1A rifle
        Mass:               4.17 kg
        Bullet Mass:        0.01069 kg
        Bullet Velocity:    807.72 m/s
        Propellant mass:    0.00279 kg

for a free recoil energy of 34.3 J (about 25 ft-lbs)

The gauss version of this weapon generated only 17.7 J of free recoil (only
13 ft-lbs)

The 7.62x51mm has 3593 J (2650 ft-lbs) of energy at the muzzle.  Note that
this is not the energy actually delivered to the target.  This can be
derived from Mach's equation of retardation id we assume non-expanding
(ball) ammunition.  The amount of velocity lost in transiting the target
will allow us to calculate the total energy transferred.

Now lets look at Book 4's Gauss rifle:

Gauss Rifle
        Mass:               3.5 kg
        Bullet Mass:        0.004 kg
        Bullet Velocity:    1500 m/s

For a free recoil of 10.2 J (7.5 ft-lbs)
Muzzle energy is 4500 J (3,300 ft-lbs)

even though the gauss rifle is 500 g less massive than the M1A almost 1000
joules more muzzle energy and one third the free recoil energy

As a note, compare this with the free recoil of the M16 with a mass of 3.2
kg.  The 3.56 g (55 gn) bullet at 1000 m/s (3300 f/s) generates 14.9 J (11
ft-lbs) of free recoil energy with 1800 J (1330 ft-lbs) of energy at the
muzzle.


> 
> In Traveller, I like to see weapons filling unique and obvious niches.
> 
> Gauss weapons are silent, and better at penetration than the ordinary
> slugthrower.  

But gauss weapons are not silent, at least not in atmosphere.  They break
the sound barrier, and ballistic crash is a very. large component of firearm
noise.  MM booboo'd on this one.

> However, I feel that there should be a recoil penalty,
> especially on full auto.  There are definitely recoil limits for
> humans (not just pain, but actually hitting something).
> 
> The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
> from Book 4.  How about YTU?

Rarely seen except in special circumstances.  The range is just too limited.
Also, the penetration is just too goo.  The penetration of a HEAP round is
directly proportional to its diameter. A 100mm diameter projectile is just
not going to have much of a 'jet', and not much material to form the
penetrator.  It's a simple matter of physics.
> 
> In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a
> good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
> been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.
> 
> ObTrav: A Gauss weapon should be a better penetrator than a laser,
> but the laser has no recoil.  I'm still trying to figure out the
> handwave that allows a plasma bolt to go more than a few centimeters
> out of the barrel.

See my note above.  The gauss rifle generates a mere 10 J of free recoil
energy 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 13:33:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr  6 13:33:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
References: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <001801c1ddb2$e0895ba0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Seemann" <mark@seemann.ms>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 9:42 PM
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs


> Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:14:38 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> wrote:
>
> > We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your
> > site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which
> > was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on
> > the whole series of events?
>
> While I can't remember the sequence of event, my library data tells me
> there were indeed two projects: The Abh and Udh projects.
>
> These library entries were taken from the Classic Traveller Alien Module
> 8: Darrians, but I can't remember the rest of the story. However, if you
> really want me to, I can go look it up.
>
> Mark Seemann
> mark@seemann.ms

As I recall, one project was going to use two interfering beams of some type
or radiation to probe the interior of the Star, and the other was to use a
probe with some kind of ablative heat shielding.

Both projects were being conducted semi-secretly and independently. That is
to say that neither team was particularly aware of the other project.

Both projects happened to reach their final stage at the same time, and each
performed its experiment simultaneously.

Unfortunately the intersecting beams caused a reaction with the trail of by
products from the probes ablating heat shielding, the result of which was a
stellar 'burp' of devastating proportions in the Darrian system. The effects
of the pulse continued out into space, reaching the surrounding Darrian
colonies at lightspeed a few years later. Despite the precautions that had
been taken  by the colonies in the intervening period the effects were still
very serious, as much of the technical and manufacturing base had been
located on Darrian itself. Some of the larger colonies survived, but the
ability to construct starships had been lost, and only a few jump capable sh
ips had been spared devastation. after a few years of trying to maintain
contact with each other they fell into a localised long night for about 800
years, before Mire (IIRC) achieved the sustainable technology to construct
its own starships and re-establish contact.

By this time the virgin territory of the Spinward Marches was now occupied
by the Sword Worlders and Zhodani.

Subsequent revelation that the Zhodani had been watching the Darrians in
secret for centuries (due to the Zhodani fears that the Maghiz was the
result of some Darrian Super-weapon) has lead to the Darrian distrust of the
Zhodani, and their allying with the Imperium in the Frontier Wars.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 13:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr  6 13:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020406172606.9E61827AC3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16tyB5-0001Pv-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

laning <laning@wizard.net> wrote:

> > > I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> > > survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of war.
> 
> I can't buy into that at all, John.  Sorry.  Wars seem no more
> omnipresent today than they were in classical times.  The only
> relationships I would draw are the motivation for vengeance that
> connects the survivors to a mass slaughter, and Malthusian effects of
> reducing population pressure by reducing population.  Two forces that
> relationships that seem in opposition to each other.  Even if you
> massacre _all_ your enemy, even the children below age six, you will
> put yourself high on the rest of the world's Enemies To Destroy list. 
> There will come the day you are on the losing side in a war, and
> genocide is not a precedent that you'd like to have around.

I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because 
humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill 
that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate 
thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in 
Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost 
any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something 
separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before. 
 
The three examples above are only those examples I know of with 
the highest death toll, tens of thousands were also been killed in 
Indonesia in the 1960s and in the ruins of Yugoslavia.  

Combat lethality may have gone down, but death tolls in conflicts 
have certainly gone *way* up.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 14:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 14:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn explains recoil in the gauss rifle
<snip>

Yes, it's not completely silent.  There's still the ballistic 
crack - but - it would be difficult to locate the firer, 
especially in an environment where any planar surfaces 
(treelines, building faces) were along the line of flight. 
People who are not familiar with the sound will not know what 
it is at all - most inexperienced people don't associate that 
sound with gunfire (I've taken people into the pits, and 
after the cracks whip by overhead, the guest usually 
says, "What's that sound?").

At such a light projectile, even at such a high velocity, I'm 
not sure that it's that effective a penetrator, unless it's 
really long in proportion to its width - and when they say 
it's 4mm, that's not that much more narrow than 7mm - or 
5.56mm.  Change it to something like a 2mm dart with a body 
40mm long - now that's something.

But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a 
miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no 
visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kown:
>ObTrav: A Gauss weapon should be a better penetrator than a laser,
>but the laser has no recoil.  I'm still trying to figure out the
>handwave that allows a plasma bolt to go more than a few centimeters
>out of the barrel.

You forget.  It's a _high_tech_ plasma bolt.  :->

IMTU, laser weapons do minimal damage.  I just don't think they can 
transfer enough energy into their target during the very, very brief moment 
they touch their target.  Normally.  If the target is unmoving, you can do 
a lot.  I've been on the brink of drastically reducing the range of fusion 
and plasma weapons, too.  For reasons similar to your own.

I also reduce the damage on gauss weapons by a bit, because of the gauss 
weapons in equipment lists are smaller caliber than most gunpowder weapons 
in the same category.  A projectile is a projectile.  Whether it was made 
to go very fast by a gunpowder explosion or a magnetic acceleration doesn't 
make any difference, as long as it is going the same speed.

Tod Glenn has drawn my attention to the fact that there are probably 
profound differences between target ballistics with projectiles travelling 
faster than 1140 meters per second, and projectiles going slower.  I have 
been pondering whether or how to revise my house rules on gauss weapons 
accordingly.  Given the standard handwaves that the Traveller rules are 
based on, at least some personal gauss weapons could theoretically achieve 
those kinds of velocities.  But then you get into the recoil issue you 
already brought up.  As well as problems with the projectile breaking up if 
it strikes a raindrop or a leaf on its way to the intended target.

I think firearms will always have an important role in combat in the 
Traveller universe, even with the presence of laser, fusion, plasma, and 
gauss weapons.  Although gauss weapons could supplant firearms in most 
cases if they are designed to throw projectiles to the same spec as their 
gunpowder counterparts.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Combat Armor & Battle Dress
In-Reply-To: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406172440.0282cbb0@pop.wizard.net>

Ken Murphy wrote:
 >>>
>   While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I 
> discovered that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game 
> (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of the 
> different models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
>   Could someone help me out?
<<<
I have Imperial Encylcopedia but not Referee's Manual.  Maybe we could help 
each other replace our purchased-but-missing books with a photocopier?  My 
understanding is that Marc Miller sanctions that, because we did in fact 
pay to own those books.

Encyclopedia only seems to list generalized text descriptions of the two 
things.  Not that long, not of much use to somebody who already understands 
the concepts.

p 74 of Players Manual gives some armor values:
Combat Armor-11  armor value 8
Combat Armor-12  armor value 10
Combat Armor-14  armor value 18
Battle Dress-13  armor value 10
Battle Dress-14 armor value 18

IIRC, the 11,12, 13, and 14 represent the tech level that the particular 
model of armor becomes available.  Armor value of 8 roughly corresponds to 
a stone, brick, or starship interior wall.  AV 10 roughly corresponds to a 
concrete wall.  AV 18 is somewhere between a reinforced concrete wall and a 
heavy steel frame wall.  A starship bulkhead is 40 and hull is 
60.  Sandbags are 6.  I am just repeating these value equivalents, not 
necessarily agreeing with them.  :->

I have a vague memory of the reference you're talking about, it must be out 
there somewhere.  But the above is all I can find in MT.  :-<

It's possible my memory is from T4.  Their have some detailed descriptions 
of battle dress at least, at various tech levels.  Pretty decent work, 
really.  Hey, not _everything_ IG put out was regrettable!  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 2:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a
> miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no
> visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).
> 

What type of laser? What power range?  Are their any ionizing effects?
Certainly the laser makes noise when it hits the target.  Steam explosions
in tissue, the popping of superheated fat.

And ever looked at a later with LI gear?  Super obvious.  Like having a big
pointer going back to the firer.  And lasers are relatively easy to defeat,
or at least attenuate.  A few mils of highly reflective material sewn into
clothing, prismatic aerosols.  As mentioned in a previous post, lasers are
not good penetrators.  The problem is with the nature of lasers themselves.
The have to vaporize there way through materials.  But the vaporized
material itself can act as a hindrance to the laser.

Also, water (and by analogy tissue) is a great thermal sink. 55 calories to
raise 1 cc of water 1 degree centigrade, IIRC.

I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.

I would be particularly be interested in the amount of power required to
produce a lethal beam, and compare that to the energy required to drive a
gauss projectile at book 4 velocities.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: vehicle design
Message-ID: <3CAF83F0.FB931D1E@mail.cswnet.com>

I need a vehicle design for my starport/colony.

1.The vehicle is intended to be used for public transportation.

2. It is to fit into a circular tunnel, the diameter of which is
4 meters/4.376 yards. The vehicle must fit inside this.
Remember the math. Area of circle: 3.14*Radius squared

3. The tunnel runs for 10km/6.25miles, from the starport to the
main town.

4. The tunnel is sealed from the external environment. 

5. Would like to see something like the maglev's from 2300 or the 
train thingies from SPACE:1999.

6. Any design format/iteration is welcome.

7. If you give me a really good design, I'll name the tunnel after you.
:) :) :)

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406180955.0282f100@pop.wizard.net>

The inestimable though esteemed Mr. Whipsnade contributes:
>    The answer is a melange of MAD, dispersal, and dampers.  There are 
> rarely single reasons for any given happenstance.
>     I wonder, what if TL 12 is when dampers are small enough to allow 
> them to be installed aboard ships?  Or the power requirements are finally 
> "doable" in a hull?  Prior to TL 12, dampers could be massive, strategic 
> systems that require multiple installations and oodles of generators.  At 
> TL 12, the technology gets miniaturized enough to be installed aboard 
> ships, sort of like radar between the late 1930s and early 1940s.
>     It's still a handwave, though.
>
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Larsen

Though you present a reasonable approach, I only wish I were 
persuaded.  It's amusing when you think about it.  Each of us has different 
things in canon that we find objectionable.  Some are bothered by the 
evolutionary biology or the chemistry, others are bothered by plot holes, 
others again by problems with basic laws of physics or theoretical physical 
limits.  Yet we are each on the TML because of our genuine love for the 
game, and most of us either accept or cherish the main body of the 
work.  We all have different comfort levels over different things.  I am 
very comfortable with having thruster plates in as a handwave, yet bothered 
that laser weapons do "too much damage"?  LOL.  Descriptions of the 
Traveller time line are acceptable to some verbatim, regardless of any 
contradictions or loopholes.  It's just fiction, there's no point to trying 
to find deeper meaning.  I accept a lot of parts of it the same way, but am 
bothered by this particular thing and completely balk at 'the 
Rebellion'.  It is well and truly said:  YMMV.

Yeah, I was thinking about the possibility of nuclear dampers below TL 12 
just being bigger than the TL 12 ones that are in 100-ton ship's bays.  You 
might even be able to get that down to TL 9, when jump drives make their 
first appearance, who knows.  Though the very frequent references to 
threats of nuclear war or to past nuclear wars that vaguely affected lots 
of places yet seem to have specifically affected nowhere should mean that 
we'd see at least _one_ mention of dampers as strategic protection.  And we 
don't.  For any tech level.  And then we're told that the combatants in the 
Rebellion seem to be making liberal use of them and planets are getting 
hosed down.  If that wasn't feasible before, what has changed that makes it 
feasible now?  (Besides who is doing most of the writing of the books.  :-)

I'm stumped here.  I need something to say when I start my next Traveller 
game.  And did I mention one of my players has a doctorate from MIT on the 
subject of nuclear warfare?  It's _going_ to come up.  Guess I'll turn the 
tables and ask him to help come up with a rationalization before he can ask 
me for one.  It would help even more if he'd read anything besides the 
original three LBBs back in 1977.  I'll post here and let you all know what 
he contributes.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D4C656.3788B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 3:07 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> 
> Tod Glenn has drawn my attention to the fact that there are probably
> profound differences between target ballistics with projectiles travelling
> faster than 1140 meters per second, and projectiles going slower.

Actually, it's 1450 m/s.  An the differences in wounding are not
theoretical, they are proven.  I direct you to "Antipersonnel Weapons"
published by SIPRI (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute) which
has a very good section of the effects of hypervelocity (1450+ m/s)
projectiles.  There have also been a few writeups in past issues of the
"Journal of Wound Ballistics".  I'll look for the articles and get you a
cite.

> I have 
> been pondering whether or how to revise my house rules on gauss weapons
> accordingly.  Given the standard handwaves that the Traveller rules are
> based on, at least some personal gauss weapons could theoretically achieve
> those kinds of velocities.  But then you get into the recoil issue you
> already brought up.

See my earlier post. Gauss weapon have significantly less free recoil energy
than CPR guns.  Just using the example from my previous post.  If we take
two identical weapons (in the example, M1As), one CPR the other gauss, each
firing an identical bullet at identical velocities.

M1A Standard:   34 J of free recoil
M1A Gauss:      17.7 J of free recoil

The Traveller Book 4 gauss rifle fires a 4g 4mm projectile at 1500 m/s.  The
weapons masses 3.5 kg, thus we have a free recoil energy of only 10.2 J, 2/3
the recoil of the M16.  The M16 has 1800 J of muzzle energy compared with
the gauss rifle's 4500 J.

If the gauss rifle is a coil gun (as many have suggested, and the
description from book 4 seems to fit)  the projectile must be ferromagnetic.
Let's assume elemental iron to make it easy.  Iron has a density of 7.86
g/cc.  We know from 'canon' that the gauss round is 4mm in diameter and
masses 4 g.  That means a projectile that is 4cm long, a 1:10 aspect ratio.

Looking a Mach's equation, these rounds are going to decelerate quickly once
they hit flesh, and probably cause wounding that is way beyond anything
caused by a conventional firearm.

> As well as problems with the projectile breaking up if
> it strikes a raindrop or a leaf on its way to the intended target.

That's a function of bullet composition.  If we assume a monolithic
projectile of iron, I doubt we'd observe such effects.  The bullets where
this phenomenon is observers are copper jacketed lead bullets.
> 
> I think firearms will always have an important role in combat in the
> Traveller universe, even with the presence of laser, fusion, plasma, and
> gauss weapons.  Although gauss weapons could supplant firearms in most
> cases if they are designed to throw projectiles to the same spec as their
> gunpowder counterparts.
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAMENHCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn asks
[I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.]

See http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/docs/98-165.pdf
for calculations on how to do damage via vaporization (there is a note that
vaporization is probably not necessary for a kill).  This is for missiles,
but you could make some assumptions about a human (just use the heat of
vaporization for water).  The primary advantage on firing on a human seems
to be that you don't need a 1 meter wide beam.

I've seen an industrial laser penetrate a stack of layered fabric over two
meters thick in a split second.  It was being used to cut cloth to the
pattern desired.  Penetration seems to be a matter of spot size and
energy deposited.  I was told that the same laser would easily, and just
as rapidly, slice a human into two strangers with the same speed and
efficiency.

The optimum wavelength is largely a matter of what is the optimum
wavelength in the atmosphere, which might vary some by planet.  Here
on earth, the optimum wavelength seems to be 1.3 nm, which can be produced
either by the COIL (chlorine/oxygen/iodine) or DF overtone (two deuterium
flouride lasers tuned to create a single overtone).

In fact, it is now claimed by the Space Based Laser documentation, that
a satellite-based laser could be used to strike individual ground targets
as small as a man. They claim now that there would be virtually no loss
if they were to use the DF overtone laser. Keep in mind that the beam
diameter at that distance would be 1 meter, and the fluence would be
high enough to completely vaporize 3mm thickness of mild steel in a
few milliseconds.

They are making the assumption now that the enemy *will* try and make
the target reflective.  Most humans, unless armored, will make a much
more cooperative target for lasers operating in the 1.3nm region.

Yes, someone will see this beam using NVG and perhaps even thermal
sights.  But such weapons can also be used with a rotating mirror at
much lower power levels to rapidly and randomly cover an area with
high enough energy to permanently damage even passive optics like
a simple pair of binoculars, and to permanently blind any human unlucky
enough to be looking in the wrong direction.

Maybe we would all be reduced to blindly wandering about with Laning's
battle axe, looking for each other.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAF897A.E39681FF@premier.net>


"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> 
> From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
> 
>      "...looked up nuclear dampers.  First available at TL 12."
> Sir,
> 
>      Well, that settles that theory.
> 
>      "You have to get all the way from TL 6 or 7 to TL 12 without them, but
> still dealing nukes.  Jump drives start at TL 9, so you have to get from 9
> to 12 with the capability for interstellar delivery of nukes."
> 
>      So until TL 12, MAD and geographical/astrographic dispersal are the
> trumps, usually.

Given that starship laser turrets are available at TL 7 (HG2, page 25,
they add a point-defense wild card to the deck.

It would seem that the authors of HG2 anticipated some aspects of
SDI.... ;-)

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406185112.00ab8e30@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn, after writing a fairly impressive summary of lasers as weapons, 
says:
>I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
>discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
>methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.
>
>I would be particularly be interested in the amount of power required to
>produce a lethal beam, and compare that to the energy required to drive a
>gauss projectile at book 4 velocities.

I second the motion.  And please consider the laser's value as a penetrator 
of armor?  The old timey steel kind, the contemporary kevlar kind, and 
whatever you feel is useful about the unobtainium kinds posited for higher 
tech levels.

Tod, your previous analysis of felt recoil vs muzzle energy, etc. Just 
found its way onto my hard drive.

Oh, I should mention that attempts to post to tml@travellercentral.com were 
giving me error 550 messages and bouncing a short while ago.  Roughly 1830 
eastern time.  Duration of problem seemed to be less than half an hour, so 
just a burp, I guess.  Possibly the mail server daemon was really busy at 
the time, I dunno.  Probably old news to you.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:02:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:02:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
In-Reply-To: <001801c1ddb2$e0895ba0$52200050@matt>
References: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406185801.00abbec0@pop.wizard.net>

Regarding what devastated Darrian, Matt Bond enlightens us:

>As I recall, one project was going to use two interfering beams of some type
>or radiation to probe the interior of the Star, and the other was to use a
>probe with some kind of ablative heat shielding.
>
>Both projects were being conducted semi-secretly and independently. That is
>to say that neither team was particularly aware of the other project.
>
>Both projects happened to reach their final stage at the same time, and each
>performed its experiment simultaneously.

If you're a player or referee even halfway inclined to make use of 
conspiracies, then this extreme coincidence should be enough to excite your 
interest.



><<<snip>>>
>Subsequent revelation that the Zhodani had been watching the Darrians in
>secret for centuries (due to the Zhodani fears that the Maghiz was the
>result of some Darrian Super-weapon) has lead to the Darrian distrust of the
>Zhodani, and their allying with the Imperium in the Frontier Wars.

Well, whether it was a conspiracy, an accident, or a weapons experiment, 
the Darrians do seem to end up knowing how to produce a Darrian 
SuperWeapon.  I like to think of it as the gods punishing Ikaros for 
forgetting his place.  Or Grandfather keeping precocious humans from 
becoming too troublesome (to other sophs in general?  to some project of 
Grandfather's?  to Grandfather himself?).  And I delight in stirring my 
players to worry about all these possibilities without knowing which is the 
truth.  Which doesn't make me an Evil Referee.  I'm hardly fiendishly 
clever enough for that.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:12:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:12:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0378F.26380.9082ED@localhost>

On 6 Apr 2002 at 15:11, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Also, water (and by analogy tissue) is a great thermal sink. 55 calories
> to raise 1 cc of water 1 degree centigrade, IIRC.

I think that's 1 calorie. However it's 4.2J to raise 1g of water 1 
degree Celsius. Then there's the .226 J/g to turn boiling water into 
steam, and then about 2 J/g to raise a gram of steam's temperature by 1 
degree. You'd be looking at about 500 J/g to turn flesh into not very 
hot (or high pressure) steam.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:13:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:13:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0378F.6868.90823C@localhost>

On 6 Apr 2002 at 6:59, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      A few you forgot to mention;
>      Kuzu - The Aslan's Second World War was nuclear, the Third one,
>      which 
> the arrival of "Pathfinder" prevented, was going to nuclear too.  Shame
> it didn't happen.
>      Asmodeus - A balkanized Zho world in the Marches had a nuclear
>      exchange 
> sometime in the 1090's.  Guess the Thought Police were all out getting
> doughnuts.
>      Unknown - IIRC, there's a balkanized world mentioned somewhere in
>      canon 
> that went nucelar.  The population there lived in domes and levels took
> quite a nose dive before the Marines could intervene.

How about the Ilelesh Revolt? Didn't the Imperium scrub the sector 
capital clean of life as an example to others?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C656.3788B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406191311.02844050@pop.wizard.net>

Wonderful.  Tod is doing a good job of convincing me of the superiority of 
gauss weapons to gunpowder weapons...just as my character in Tod's game is 
in an already terrifying combat situation--and the bad guys mostly use 
gauss weapons while our guys use mostly gunpowder.  Ruh roh.

This is on top of the various other combat advantages the bad guys have 
already established for themselves.  And I freely admit that our side could 
have done a better job of matching them in a lot of ways.  Part of our 
failure to do so is because we were so busy roleplaying instead of being 
munchkins.  :->

--Laning aka Krowaka


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <3CAF897A.E39681FF@premier.net>
References: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406192030.02845720@pop.wizard.net>

John Groth reminds us of another card on the table:

>Given that starship laser turrets are available at TL 7 (HG2, page 25,
>they add a point-defense wild card to the deck.
>
>It would seem that the authors of HG2 anticipated some aspects of
>SDI.... ;-)

Hm.  I was just about to proclaim laser-based missile defenses as the 
salvation of sophonts everywhere over the past centuries.  Regardless of 
real life opinions on the topic, that seems satisfying enough for Traveller 
purposes.  But there's still that nagging thing about the Rebellion being 
able to get away with nuclear bombardments when nobody previously 
could.  This should be good enough for most of my players, as they aren't 
familiar with Traveller to begin with and there is no Rebellion 
IMTU.  Practical problem solved at least for now.  Intellectual problem 
still a bit lingering.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 17:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr  6 17:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020407112641.A1980@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
> discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
> methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.

The best I've seen (and calculated) is to produce a train of pulses
lasting a millisecond or so, with pulses a few tens of microseconds
apart.  The collimation requirements are pretty stringent thought; for
this application you want to be able to focus on a region just a
couple of millimetres across.  Each pulse need only have a few tens of
joules, and the pulse train as a whole needs a kJ or so to give
similar penetration to a 9mm pistol bullet.  With more energy, you can
obviously do more damage, relax the focus requirements, and/or get
better penetration.

Such a weapon would most certainly *not* be silent.  At the target the
'bang' of superheated vapour would be far louder than the
corresponding sound of a bullet impact; more like the firing of an
unsuppressed slugthrower.  The pulses themselves would also disturb
the air through which they pass, but this would be a more diffuse and
dificult to localise sound.

Wavelengths near visible light are best, since most other frequencies
are absorbed by the atmosphere more strongly.  At handgun ranges this
probably isn't a problem though.  I would suggest near-UV.  This also
diminishes the danger to the retinas of unintended targets from beam
scattering, since UV is absorbed by the cornea (I think).


> I would be particularly be interested in the amount of power required to
> produce a lethal beam, and compare that to the energy required to drive a
> gauss projectile at book 4 velocities.

Very similar.  Both look to be in the 5-10 kJ range for effective
antipersonnel use.  The laser would have slightly lower wounding
potential and worse armour penetration, but may need only energy and
has no recoil at all.  It would probably also be more adaptable to
various uses (e.g. longer-duration cutting or drilling).  The gauss
weapon would probably have better wounding potential and lower recoil,
but needs both physical ammunition and energy.  Maintenance may be
more of a problem than chemical slugthrowers in both cases, unless
technology is sufficiently advanced.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
References: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020406185801.00abbec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <002901c1dde3$af25f6a0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "laning" <laning@wizard.net>
> Well, whether it was a conspiracy, an accident, or a weapons experiment,
> the Darrians do seem to end up knowing how to produce a Darrian
> SuperWeapon.

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately if you are on the other side...) the
devastation caused by the Maghiz destroyed all records of one of the
experiments (the interfering beams), so until the players discover the
necessary evidence of the second experiment in the adventure in the back of
Alien Module 8: Darrians, the Darrian Starkiller weapon is pure bluff. They
believed it was purely due to the probe, and tough that their failure was
due to imperfect records of the probes construction. They managed to
convince their neighbours through a rigged demonstration that they still had
the technology to induce a mini-nova. (I seem to recall that they used some
recovered Tech-G sensors to locate a star that was slightly unstable anyway
to do their demo on, that lesser sensors would think was stable).

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] pilot specs
In-Reply-To: <20020405.205600.-3247.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> What are the real life size minimum and maximum hight 
> requirements for a combat fighter pilot?

In general the minimums are set so that you can see over 
the dashboard, and the maximums are set so that your knees 
don't get cut-off when you use the bang-seat. 

What those measurements are depend on what combat aircraft
your force is flying. 

Frankie







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:32:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:32:56 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> war.

I don't see it making any change, as this unwillingness to
slaughter is actually pretty normal and has been throughout
history.

Not that _everybody_ has this unwllingness, but the vast majority
of people do, including most soldiers.

> People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.

Actually, no. That only happens against psychotic invaders who
you know will kill you if you surrender.

If you are fighting "normal" invaders, the majority of the people
don't fight at all, as they don't care who is in charge, one lord
is the same as another.

_Most_ peoples stop fighting when their armies have been defeated
or have surrendered, and most armies stop fighting when they
believe they cannot win.  They may not have been defeated at that
point.

Only fanatics, or people who have nothing to lose, such as those
who are guilty of war crimes so know they will be put to death,
keep fighting.

> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

And just as any other piece of propaganda, the descriptions in
the Old Testament were somewhat overblown.
It was common to ascribe such tactics to the barbarians of the
past, and the enemies of the present. If all the peoples and
towns that supposedly had been put to the sword actually were,
the population of the world would have taken much longer.

> It's barbaric, I know.

It's also extremely wasteful, and almost guarantees that you will
fail in the short term.

The "Thousand Year Reich", an organization that was oppressive
and actively treied to eliminate their enemiew, lasted less than
a couple of decades.

The Roman "Empire", which in the main did not go round trying to
destroy peoples, but was largely tolerant and inclusive, lasted
several centuries.  It finally fell because it became oppressive
and intolerant.

> But if you want to get the message across that Our
> Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you
> have to do.

To be an effective invader you do _not_ want to get across the
idea "We won and You lost", you want to get across the idea that
"We, including you, all Won, and the bad guys who used to rule
you lost"

> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.

This is probably outweighed by the loss of the planet as an
industrial base

Not to mention that the M.A.D doctrine is even more effective in
the stellar arena.

As soon as you do this without "just cause" you have made enemies
of every other polity in the galaxy (except perhaps the K'Kree
who are already in this position).

Also it is _very_ easy to set off a few nukes on your capital
world, even if it is far behind the frontlines, and your Navy
can't prevent it without isolating the capital from all trade,
which would have even _more_ effect than the nuke, as shown by
the aftermath of Sept 11th.

> Their ships might have to chase those missiles instead of
firing on
> the attackers.

Very unlikely, a few nukes on the planet are not worth losing the
battle over, and anyway, the planet is likely to have better
anti-missile defences than the ships.

> And how many nukes does it really take to lay
> waste to an advanced industrial society?

A huge number.

More than the the arsenals of China, the USA, and the USSR put
together when at maximum strength, in fact.

Unless you have a few "big" enough to crack the crust, and if you
have that sort of capabilty, _nobody_ is dsafe, and it's even
less likely anyone will use the capability in a normal
(non-xenophobe) war.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] pilot specs
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <20020405.205600.-3247.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406224027.00cc5150@192.168.0.1>

At 03:41 PM 4/7/2002 +1200, Frank Pitt wrote:
>generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> > What are the real life size minimum and maximum hight
> > requirements for a combat fighter pilot?
>In general the minimums are set so that you can see over
>the dashboard, and the maximums are set so that your knees
>don't get cut-off when you use the bang-seat.

The Maximum mentioned is what kept my brother out of the Air Force.
He was *that close* to signing up till he was measured from hip to knee.
3/4" too long for the FB-111.

>What those measurements are depend on what combat aircraft
>your force is flying.

-----------------------------------------------------
"Freedom is man's capacity to take a hand in his own
development. It is our capacity to mold ourselves."
-- Rollo May  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
-----------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CF6F3E.3427B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20406.200715.2D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find anything.  OK,
> I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite terrorist building
> these?

Because *being* a Luddite, they aren't familar with the tech?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:44:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:44:11 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20406.204246.6R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/6/02 1:06 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.
>> 
>> I have trouble picturing a coilgun as being *practical* in a man
>> portable size. Railguns are almost as bad, but at least you don't need
>> to switch all that power *repeatedly* and with precise timing dozens of
>> times per shot.
>
> The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
> build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.

For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:46:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:46:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Combat Armor & Battle Dress
References: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <DAV17bZEHQQE9OFLkxt00005c25@hotmail.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_010A_01C1DDBC.7A6DF060
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gentlebeing Murphy asks regarding weight and volume of Combat Armor and =
Battledress in MegaTraveller.=20


Armor                            TL            Volume            Weight  =
          Cr

Combat Armor 11            11                2.9                18       =
         20k
Combat Armor 12            12                1.8                10       =
         30k
Combat Armor 14            14                0.7                6        =
          60k
Battle Dress     13            13                3.8                26   =
             200k
Battle Dress     14            14                2.7                12   =
             350k
Cmbt Env Suit                  10                 6                 2.0  =
              1,000

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was also of extremely limited value.   =
...(T)he steers were incapable of understanding what was happening and =
articulating their concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. =
Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

------=_NextPart_000_010A_01C1DDBC.7A6DF060
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Gentlebeing Murphy asks regarding weight and volume =
of Combat=20
Armor and Battledress in MegaTraveller. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Armor&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
TL&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Volume&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Weight&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Cr</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Combat Armor 11&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2.9&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
18&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;20k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Combat Armor 12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
1.8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;30k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Combat Armor&nbsp;14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;60k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Battle =
Dress&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;13&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
13&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3.8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;26&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;200k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Battle =
Dress&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2.7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;350k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Cmbt Env=20
Suit&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2.0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1,000</FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:texasredshift@hotmail.com">texasredshift@hotmail.com</A><B=
R><A=20
href=3D"mailto:billws@sysmatrix.net">billws@sysmatrix.net</A></FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The shooting of the steers was also of extremely =
limited=20
value.&nbsp;&nbsp; ...(T)he steers were incapable of understanding what =
was=20
happening and articulating their concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by =
Evan P.=20
Marshall and Edwin J.=20
Sanow</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_010A_01C1DDBC.7A6DF060--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <20406.204246.6R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c1ddf0$419a3800$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>

> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.

Or Ha-Un batteries (Batteries made from a mixture of Handwavium and
Unobtainium)...

<g>

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 21:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 21:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20406.204246.6R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D51C82.37945%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 8:42 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
>> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
>> build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.
> 
> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.

??

Why permanent magnets.  A rialgun doesn't use magnetic fields in the manner
of a coil gun.  We just have two parallel rails and the armature
(projectile).  We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
in the loop and acting on the armature.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 21:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 21:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <000b01c1ddf0$419a3800$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <B8D51CD6.37946%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 8:54 PM, Matthew Bond at mattgbond@ntlworld.com wrote:

>> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
>> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.
> 
> Or Ha-Un batteries (Batteries made from a mixture of Handwavium and
> Unobtainium)...

Assuming you are using batteries.  Perhaps a small, highly efficient
compulsator?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 21:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 21:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEPIGEAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Sound like a reprise of the old Golden Bridgers and the 
relentless pursuit practitioners.  Historically, leaders tended 
to publicly Golden Bridegers but the chronicles tend to show 
more then one slaughter of routed losers.  I would tend to think 
that term, (the day of battles), a routed side tended to get 
slaughtered afterwards you were pretty safe


OB Trav

Mercs would tend to be golden Bridgers.
The Imperium would tend to believe in relentless pursuit, u
until you acknowledge you are thumped

(1)  golden bridge = extend a golden bridge to a fleeing enemy  

jml

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> war.

I don't see it making any change, as this unwillingness to
slaughter is actually pretty normal and has been throughout
history.

Not that _everybody_ has this unwllingness, but the vast majority
of people do, including most soldiers.

> People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.

Actually, no. That only happens against psychotic invaders who
you know will kill you if you surrender.

If you are fighting "normal" invaders, the majority of the people
don't fight at all, as they don't care who is in charge, one lord
is the same as another.

_Most_ peoples stop fighting when their armies have been defeated
or have surrendered, and most armies stop fighting when they
believe they cannot win.  They may not have been defeated at that
point.

Only fanatics, or people who have nothing to lose, such as those
who are guilty of war crimes so know they will be put to death,
keep fighting.

> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

And just as any other piece of propaganda, the descriptions in
the Old Testament were somewhat overblown.
It was common to ascribe such tactics to the barbarians of the
past, and the enemies of the present. If all the peoples and
towns that supposedly had been put to the sword actually were,
the population of the world would have taken much longer.

> It's barbaric, I know.

It's also extremely wasteful, and almost guarantees that you will
fail in the short term.

The "Thousand Year Reich", an organization that was oppressive
and actively treied to eliminate their enemiew, lasted less than
a couple of decades.

The Roman "Empire", which in the main did not go round trying to
destroy peoples, but was largely tolerant and inclusive, lasted
several centuries.  It finally fell because it became oppressive
and intolerant.

> But if you want to get the message across that Our
> Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you
> have to do.

To be an effective invader you do _not_ want to get across the
idea "We won and You lost", you want to get across the idea that
"We, including you, all Won, and the bad guys who used to rule
you lost"

> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.

This is probably outweighed by the loss of the planet as an
industrial base

Not to mention that the M.A.D doctrine is even more effective in
the stellar arena.

As soon as you do this without "just cause" you have made enemies
of every other polity in the galaxy (except perhaps the K'Kree
who are already in this position).

Also it is _very_ easy to set off a few nukes on your capital
world, even if it is far behind the frontlines, and your Navy
can't prevent it without isolating the capital from all trade,
which would have even _more_ effect than the nuke, as shown by
the aftermath of Sept 11th.

> Their ships might have to chase those missiles instead of
firing on
> the attackers.

Very unlikely, a few nukes on the planet are not worth losing the
battle over, and anyway, the planet is likely to have better
anti-missile defences than the ships.

> And how many nukes does it really take to lay
> waste to an advanced industrial society?

A huge number.

More than the the arsenals of China, the USA, and the USSR put
together when at maximum strength, in fact.

Unless you have a few "big" enough to crack the crust, and if you
have that sort of capabilty, _nobody_ is dsafe, and it's even
less likely anyone will use the capability in a normal
(non-xenophobe) war.

Frankie


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 22:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 22:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 7 Apr 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <o8pvaugdbvlibj4ikplrj5seooqrgqoqv7@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - More internal changes, plus all of the pages have been updated to
   reflect our new contact address(es), at freelancetraveller.com. The old
   Yahoo! address will continue to work for a while, but you will get
   faster responses by writing to the new addresses. 

 - John T. Kwon brings us a design for the Virtus-class Solomani
   Infiltrator. Read it in The Shipyard. 

 - Joe Webb brings us another JTAS Adventure Contest winner. You can read
   Sex and the Single Vargr in Active Measures. 

 - Kate Thumann brings us the first Traveller "Choose-Your-Own-Adventure",
   Scout's Honor. You can download it from Active Measures. 

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the (working!) feedback form at
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/infocenter/feedbackform.html.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to visit our site
and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our existence
possible.



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 23:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Sat Apr  6 23:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4A39D.37862%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIEANDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

Tod,

RE= Mg *((MbVb+MpVp)/Mg)^2 in Joules

where:  Mg is the mass of the gun
        Vg is the mass of the bullet
        Mp is the mass of the propellant
        Vp is the velocity of the propellant.  Typically
        noted as a constant (1200 m/s)


What is Mb?  Vb? in this equation.

Jusitn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 23:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 23:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204070730.g377U0h29022@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
...
>> The K'kree seem to be the only major polity that believes in
>> re-surfacing planets as a matter of policy. There's all sorts
>> of amateurs that try and compete for the title, but mostly sanity
>> (MAD) or cultural constraints interfere.
>
>I would expect that when it came to the K'kree, their opponents would adopt
>the same attitude.  Something like the US policy on chemical weapons. "No
>first use".  But if you use them, will give it right back and in spades.

  Even the K'kree seem to have opted to be harshest when the suffering 
will be effectively monopolized by their vict^h^h opponents.

  ObTrav: never trust a herd animal? :>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 23:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 23:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIEANDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8D53600.37962%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 11:16 PM, Justin Bunnell at jbunnell@yahoo.com wrote:

> Tod,
> 
> RE= Mg *((MbVb+MpVp)/Mg)^2 in Joules
> 
> where:  Mg is the mass of the gun
> Vg is the mass of the bullet
> Mp is the mass of the propellant
> Vp is the velocity of the propellant.  Typically
> noted as a constant (1200 m/s)
> 
> 
> What is Mb?  Vb? in this equation.

Oops.  Mb= mass of bullet, Vb is velocity of bullet.

I should proofread more carefully.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 00:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 00:05:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Combat Armor & Battle Dress
References: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CAFFDF2.801EA808@virgin.net>

--------------85F01DDED7191BA32DD8BE91
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:

>   Hi,
>   While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I
> discovered that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game
> (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of
> the different models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
>   Could someone help me out?
>   Thanks :)
>  -Ken Murphy-

If you are in the uk, i can help easily as i have a spare (well actually
it is my only one but i don't use it).  Otherwise it will take a few
days.

Simon


--------------85F01DDED7191BA32DD8BE91
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp;
Hi,</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp; While going through
my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I discovered that I no longer
have that 3rd book from the boxed game (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which
gives the weight and volume of the different models of Combat Armor and
Battle Dress.</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp; Could someone help
me out?</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp; Thanks :)</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</font></font></blockquote>

<p><br>If you are in the uk, i can help easily as i have a spare (well
actually it is my only one but i don't use it).&nbsp; Otherwise it will
take a few days.
<p>Simon
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--------------85F01DDED7191BA32DD8BE91--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 00:26:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 00:26:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>

laning wrote:

> <snippety, snip, snip>
> IMTU, laser weapons do minimal damage.
> <snippety, snip, snip>
> I also reduce the damage on gauss weapons by a bit, because of the gauss
> weapons in equipment lists are smaller caliber than most gunpowder weapons
> in the same category.  A projectile is a projectile.  Whether it was made
> to go very fast by a gunpowder explosion or a magnetic acceleration doesn't
> make any difference, as long as it is going the same speed.
>
> --Laning

Just to confirm things here, the Gauss/Rail/coilgun weapons DOES NOT fire the
projectile at similar speeds to 'gunpowder' weapons.  The last i heard (and
this was about 5+ years ago), current (at the time) railgun technology was
managing to accelerate a small plastic pellet (about 1" across IIRC) to over
22km/s (declared) and it was punching through 6" steel plating as if it were a
shaped charge.  We are now 5+ years on so that will have improved somewhat.
Now extrapolate on a few millennia and put the new improved kit in a portable
form and you have the Gauss Gun.

The drawback are that, due to the inherent speed of the projectile, you will
produce a sonic 'boom' (albeit a small one) in all but the 'rarest'
atmospheres.  Also, I would expect the extreme pressure waves to form minute
contrails (someone correct me here if i am floundering into strange
territories) and therefore make it relatively easy to detect where the shots
were originating from (but also acting like a form of tracer to the firer as
well).

Now, using the good ok EnergyK=0.5 x M x V x V, I would approximate that a 4g
needle from a gauss gun at 20 km/s would, theoretically, gave about 0.8 MJ of
kinetic energy, enough to knock anyone off their feet and punch a big hole in
everything apart from hulls and bulkheads (gearheads can you please confirm
both calculations and also what it should/shouldn't penetrate :-) )

A good example of this would be the railgun effects in 'Eraser' (a s**t film
apart from that bit though)

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 00:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 00:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20020405224838.04445dd0@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <3CB00424.9F0823FB@virgin.net>

Richard Wilson wrote:

> At 04:59 PM 4/4/02, you wrote:
> >Mark Urbin wrote:
> > > I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> > > I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor
> > > training.
> >
> >I used to work a a company that tried for (and got) ISO 9000/9001
> >certification: it was easy-peasy!
> >
> >1) Have a documented procedure for everything
> >2) Make sure all staff know where the latest  versions  of  those
> >    documents are (ie. where on the PC server)
> >
> >The fact that we didn't actually follow those  procedures  (close
> >scrutiny would have revealed they were unworkable anyhow)  didn't
> >seem to matter.
> >
> >Its just a case of understanding the game.
> >
>
> Funny, the auditor who is checking the company I work for keeps wanting to
> see actual proof that we are following our procedures.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> Richard Wilson

As someone who has done ISO 9000 series to death (and back) it basically boils
down to:

1.    Say how you intend to meet the ISO requirements
2.    Prove that you are doing what you say in 1.

the accreditors are not concerned (neither should they be) with how you meet
the ISO requirement, only that you have a system in place to meet them and
that you use the system that you have said you will.

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 01:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 01:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 12:26 AM, Si at mr.fingle@virgin.net wrote:

> 
> Just to confirm things here, the Gauss/Rail/coilgun weapons DOES NOT fire the
> projectile at similar speeds to 'gunpowder' weapons.  The last i heard (and
> this was about 5+ years ago), current (at the time) railgun technology was
> managing to accelerate a small plastic pellet (about 1" across IIRC) to over
> 22km/s (declared) and it was punching through 6" steel plating as if it were a
> shaped charge.  We are now 5+ years on so that will have improved somewhat.
> Now extrapolate on a few millennia and put the new improved kit in a portable
> form and you have the Gauss Gun.

A railgun will fire the projectile at a velocity proportional to the current
applied.  You could build a railgun to fire a projectile at a lower velocity
of required.  The current military designs for railguns employ an aluminum
sabor to propel a standard tank gun penetrator at something like 2
km/second.  Not bad for a 15 lbs projectile.
> 
> The drawback are that, due to the inherent speed of the projectile, you will
> produce a sonic 'boom' (albeit a small one) in all but the 'rarest'
> atmospheres.  Also, I would expect the extreme pressure waves to form minute
> contrails (someone correct me here if i am floundering into strange
> territories) and therefore make it relatively easy to detect where the shots
> were originating from (but also acting like a form of tracer to the firer as
> well).

I recall the test you refer to.  The projectile actually created a contrail
of ionized gas much like a micrometeorite.
> 
> Now, using the good ok EnergyK=0.5 x M x V x V, I would approximate that a 4g
> needle from a gauss gun at 20 km/s would, theoretically, gave about 0.8 MJ of
> kinetic energy, enough to knock anyone off their feet and punch a big hole in
> everything apart from hulls and bulkheads (gearheads can you please confirm
> both calculations and also what it should/shouldn't penetrate :-) )


Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
20 km/sec.

ME is 0.8 MJ

Assume a weapon mass of 4.5 kg (slightly heavier than Book 4, about 10 lbs
or close enough).  That gives a free recoil energy of 1422 J.  A .458 win
mag elephant gun has a free recoil of 81 J, about the most anyone can
tolerate.  No one will be shooting this.

Let's reset the numbers with a target free recoil of 100 J  and see what we
can come up with.  Again assume a rifle massing 4.5 kg.  If we are still
using the 4mm, 4g projectile, we can tolerate a velocity of 4743 m/s.

That works out to be 45,000 J.  Pretty respectable. The mighty .458 win mag
only generates about 5400 J.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 04:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr  7 03:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <010301c1de1d$72819f80$a85d8690@computer>

> From: sneadj@mindspring.com
> I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because
> humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill
> that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate
> thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in
> Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost
> any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something
> separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before.

The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
million or more - far greater than the examples given above.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 05:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 04:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Time Travel
In-Reply-To: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16uAur-0007IU-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

I'm fairly certain this won't work, but if by some miracle it does we 
might get to see what the 57th century will *really* look like.

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/095/metro/Professor_s_time_tra
vel_idea_fires_up_the_imaginationP.shtml

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 05:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr  7 04:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20406.231818.6W1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Jens Rydholm wrote:
>> My main aim isn't to recreate the original Traveller sequence. If I'd
>> wanted that, I'd just use it instead of First In  ;-)
>> 
>> However, I want roughly the same spread of intelligent races as in typical
>> SF, ie the most common environment for sentinent life to evolve in is on
>> Earthlike worlds.
>> 
>> I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might look
>> under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary after a
>> while.
>> 
>> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
>> function using radically different biochemistries?
>
> Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
> reprinted in various places.

Asimov never had a column in Analog. His column was in F&SF. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 05:38:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr  7 04:38:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20406.232122.6w2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Well, odds are the lock won't work at all then.  Plus, who says you're
> going to
>> put a thumbprint lock on the _inside_ of the lock?
>
> Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
> kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
> Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Take off your suit glove (the wrist will seal, same as if you'd
punctured it). Put your thumb on the reader. 

Once you get inside treat your hand for the swelling, edema, and
rupturing on minor surface blood vessels.

Esposure of your hand to vacuum is *painful*. But the amount of damage
is rather like that for frostbite. Short exposure won't do serious
damage.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 06:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Sun Apr  7 05:13:03 2002
Subject: Traveller Non-Lethals (was Re: [TML] Niches)
References: <20020407082906.CCBE427AFE@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0378D.B52CD94E@earthlink.net>

Mark Urbin posted:
> 
> At 12:41 PM 4/6/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >Tod Glenn says:
> [snip]
> >The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
> >from Book 4.  How about YTU?
> 
> I think people like Snubs because they have HEAP & HE ammo.
> 
> >In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a
> >good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
> >been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.
> 
> T4 has 'em.

So did CT. The publication was the adventure "Divine Intervention".

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 06:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 05:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8D51C82.37945%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAEENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod says:

[We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
in the loop and acting on the armature.]

ObTrav: Can the expert spot the vehicle with the railgun? 
Look for the longer, heavy duty barrel, perhaps with an
external truss.

A railgun would probably require more rigid construction
to resist this force, which would be considerable if the weapon
was designed for very high power (like a vehicle mounted weapon).

The barrel might be much more substantial than a typical 
slugthrower barrel, which has most of its reinforcement in the
breech area.  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn says

[
Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
20 km/sec.

ME is 0.8 MJ

Assume a weapon mass of 4.5 kg (slightly heavier than Book 4, about 10 lbs
or close enough).  That gives a free recoil energy of 1422 J.  A .458 win
mag elephant gun has a free recoil of 81 J, about the most anyone can
tolerate.  No one will be shooting this.

Let's reset the numbers with a target free recoil of 100 J  and see what we
can come up with.  Again assume a rifle massing 4.5 kg.  If we are still
using the 4mm, 4g projectile, we can tolerate a velocity of 4743 m/s.

That works out to be 45,000 J.  Pretty respectable. The mighty .458 win mag
only generates about 5400 J.
] endBlock

As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.  The first example you give is 10%
of that.  The second example has a free recoil somewhere above the elephant
gun.

ObTrav:  To be controllable in full auto, I would think we would want the
free recoil down in the M-16 range (which is dubious, if you've ever
tried to hit something at 100 yards on full auto with the M-16).  I've
also noticed that as soon as recoil levels go over, say, a light rifle
in .243, people begin to notice, and when they notice, they either flinch,
or are apprehensive about firing, especially the first round.

ObTrav2:  Tod, how do we arrive at various penetration and damage values for
CT,
MT, etc.?  FFS might be easy, and maybe we could work our way backwards.
Other game systems, such as PCCS, are extremely easy to back-calculate.

Now, I'm up there with Jeff Cooper in wondering why recoil is a problem,
but then again, I've never tried a .460 Weatherby.  Might make a flincher
out of me.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0F014.30539.36165A5@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 9:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> ObTrav:  To be controllable in full auto, I would think we would want
> the free recoil down in the M-16 range (which is dubious, if you've ever
> tried to hit something at 100 yards on full auto with the M-16).  I've
> also noticed that as soon as recoil levels go over, say, a light rifle
> in .243, people begin to notice, and when they notice, they either
> flinch, or are apprehensive about firing, especially the first round.

They do? Even my sisters didn't consider the SMLE to be excessive once 
they were adults. It was a bit heavy when we were 10 or 12, though. 
I've always thought that recoil isn't significant until you're dealing 
with light, light .270 Winchesters, light .30-06's and up.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <200204071328.DNX00358@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
<snip about learning to shoot when you're young>

Yes, I'm with you that recoil "should not" be a problem, 
especially if you learn to shoot when you're young.

But a lot of people in the US Army have never fired a weapon 
prior to joining up, and many of them are flinchers with an M-
16.  Scary.

I don't really have a problem in recoil, unless, as you say, 
the rifle is too light.  The heavier calibers, such as 
the .375 H&H, tend (to me at least) to feel like a giant 
shove, and the smaller high velocity calibers (the 7mm 
Remington Magnum being one) tend to have a sharper recoil 
spike.

ObTrav:  I really believe in the -5 DM for people who have no 
gun skill.  But -- it only takes a few afternoons of proper 
instuction to get rid of this.  I would assume that 
adventurers have taken the time to teach their fellow 
adventurers (someone with Instruction would be best).
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204071328.DNX00358@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0F5B7.22180.3776D4B@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 9:28, John T. Kwon wrote:

> But a lot of people in the US Army have never fired a weapon 
> prior to joining up, and many of them are flinchers with an M-
> 16.  Scary.

I didn't see that with the guys, but many of the women who joined up 
having never handled a real rifle had problems. Not so much flinching 
as poor and unsteady grip. I don't think some of them ever held the 
weapon steady enough for it to be called a flinch as such. To my great 
surprise everyone in my intake ultimately passed.

> ObTrav:  I really believe in the -5 DM for people who have no 
> gun skill.  But -- it only takes a few afternoons of proper 
> instuction to get rid of this.  I would assume that 
> adventurers have taken the time to teach their fellow 
> adventurers (someone with Instruction would be best).

I'd go along with that.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <8bj0busac4ql4qivsl46eujfq619pq2mb4@4ax.com>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 00:26:03 -0800, "Mark Seemann" <mark@seemann.ms> wrote:

>Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:14:38 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>wrote:

>> We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your 
>> site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which 
>> was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on 
>> the whole series of events?

>While I can't remember the sequence of event, my library data tells me
>there were indeed two projects: The Abh and Udh projects.

>These library entries were taken from the Classic Traveller Alien Module
>8: Darrians, but I can't remember the rest of the story. However, if you
>really want me to, I can go look it up.

The Abh Project involved sending a probe deep into the star; it was kept
cool enough to survive by venting tungsten.

The Udh project involved mapping the interior of the star using crossed
beams of (microwaves?).

The flare happened when the intersecting beams went through a region where
the Abh probe had vented tungsten; the resulting reaction propagated along
the 'tungsten trail' until it reached the star's surface, where it went
nasty.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <8bj0busac4ql4qivsl46eujfq619pq2mb4@4ax.com>
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407080316.009f24b0@mindspring.com>

At 09:48 AM 4/7/02 -0400, you wrote:
>The Udh project involved mapping the interior of the star using crossed
>beams of (microwaves?).

Mesons.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 09:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Sun Apr  7 08:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com> <010301c1de1d$72819f80$a85d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CB06657.8060405@gmx.net>

Alan Bradley wrote:

>>From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>>I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because
>>humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill
>>that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate
>>thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in
>>Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost
>>any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something
>>separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before.
>>
>
>The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
>Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
>million or more - far greater than the examples given above.
>
What about the ratio of 'civilian' deaths to 'military' deaths? Who gets 
the award for most civilian casulties compared to military casulties, 
not overall numbers?

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 10:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 09:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407111020.027e6d50@pop.wizard.net>

Si quotes me then says:
>laning wrote:
>
> > <snippety, snip, snip>
> > IMTU, laser weapons do minimal damage.
> > <snippety, snip, snip>
> > I also reduce the damage on gauss weapons by a bit, because of the gauss
> > weapons in equipment lists are smaller caliber than most gunpowder weapons
> > in the same category.  A projectile is a projectile.  Whether it was made
> > to go very fast by a gunpowder explosion or a magnetic acceleration doesn't
> > make any difference, as long as it is going the same speed.
> >
> > --Laning
>
>Just to confirm things here, the Gauss/Rail/coilgun weapons DOES NOT fire the
>projectile at similar speeds to 'gunpowder' weapons.  The last i heard (and
>this was about 5+ years ago), current (at the time) railgun technology was
>managing to accelerate a small plastic pellet (about 1" across IIRC) to over
>22km/s (declared) and it was punching through 6" steel plating as if it were a
>shaped charge.

Let's see if I can express myself better this time.  I am not trying to say 
that gauss weapons are only capable of matching gunpowder weapons 
performance.  I was trying to say that if you build a gauss weapon and a 
gunpowder weapon that each propel an identical projectile to an identical 
speed and spin, then the projectiles will both behave identically as they 
go down range.

There have been posts (primarily from Tod Glenn) since my post quoted above 
that let's say strongly suggest it would be unlikely that anyone would 
bother to build gauss weapons that way.  Instead, makers of gauss weapons 
would send a lighter, skinnier, longer projectile down range and at hugely 
greater velocities than anyone would bother to try to make a gunpowder 
weapon do even if they could make it do so.  I was trying originally to say 
that if gauss weapon makers are underperforming in a particular niche of 
gun type, all they have to do is come up with a gauss weapon that throws 
essentially the same slug at essentially the same speed and spin as the 
gunpowder weapons they are competing with.

Assuming that weapon/ammo prices of both are comparable, which they 
probably are not but this is so far out in the realm of science fiction 
that we really can't confidently predict what the prices would be.  So the 
prices are whatever you want to make them.

My reason for making the canonical gauss rifle do somewhat less damage than 
say a battle rifle firing standard 7.62 NATO is that I am not entirely 
convinced that making a lighter skinnier projectile go hugely faster and 
making it a lot longer is necessarily going to produce the wounding results 
predicted by the experts who are designing and testing these things.  I 
think a large dollop of conservatism is a healthy thing in such 
matters.  Let's see production models in real combat or hunting and used by 
regular people, and in uncontrolled conditions.

Please note that I am not _rejecting_ claims from gauss weapon 
proponents.  I am being slow to accept them.  I should also point out what 
I posted earlier:  I am reconsidering my house rule on gauss weapon damage, 
mostly because of things Tod Glenn has said.  I made those house rules many 
years ago and haven't been prompted to change them since.  But maybe I 
will, now.  They're just a science fiction item in a science fiction game, 
and I don't feel it's criminally stupid of me to make gauss weapons IMTU 
behave differently than gauss weapons in someone else's TU.  My players 
have been happy with my rules for twenty years, and generally the ones with 
the most knowledge of military firearms have been the happiest.  That tells 
me that my rules aren't just completely ludicrous.  If my version of gauss 
weapons bothers you, then maybe you will find some relief to know that I 
wholeheartedly agree about those magic snub pistols not being able to 
penetrate armor as well as they canonically do.  IMTU, they don't.  You can 
have a HEAP round in your snub pistol, and it may improve it's penetration 
in many circumstances.  But it will still penetrate more poorly than a HEAP 
round from a standard autopistol.  My usual snub pistol description is 
roughly the .25 auto "lady's gun".

If you're curious about what I would change my house rules to say on gauss 
weapons, here's what I am thinking about maybe doing.  Or I may decide not 
to since it's been fun to play with the rules I'm used to and it's just a 
game.  I'm thinking about crunching the numbers with the formulae helpfully 
provided by Tod Glenn using canonical gauss weapon designs and probably a 
couple or three other designs of my own.  Translate the results back into 
Traveller combat stats.  Work through each of the ammo types I believe 
would be useful and decide what differences to implement for a projectile 
that is much longer, proportionally than comparable gunpowder bullets.  I'm 
guessing that some ammo types will be more expensive and others 
cheaper.  And HEAP may be less effective because higher velocities and 
probably faster twists and smaller diameters can be counterproductive for 
that type of ammo, but perhaps the longer projectile will help.  I am also 
thinking about making the gauss weapon itself a lot more expensive.  Or 
not.  I can think of reasonable arguments both ways.  And making gauss 
weapons more fragile than gunpowder weapons.  Or again, perhaps not.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 10:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Apr  7 09:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>

From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>

     "The Abh Project involved sending a probe deep into the star; it was 
kept cool enough to survive by venting tungsten."

     "The Udh project involved mapping the interior of the star using 
crossed beams of (microwaves?)."


Mr. Zeitlin,

     Intersecting meson beams being used as some sort of active sensor 
system.  The beams also need to intersect at a "shallow", or obtuse, angle 
with each other.  The beams in the case of Tanis system were projected from 
two widely seperated locations the system's planetoid belt.
     This adds some complexity to any deploymeny of the Star Trigger.  The 
obtuse angle of intersection required for the meson beams means that two 
projectors at near opposite "sides" of a star must be used.
Two ships would then be a minimum; one to release the probe and project a 
beam, the other to project the second beam.  Naturally, the vessels would 
have to be in communication with each other to coordinate the meson beam 
aiming point.  How quickly the tungsten cooled probe, which is only used to 
"seed" the star with that material, can be inserted into the star is 
unknown, as is how much tungsten needs to be vented.
     IIRC, the effects aren't seen for many hours and, presumably, the meson 
beams need to operated for that entire length of time.
     All of this makes the Star Trigger a rather finicky device.  Actual 
deployment of the weapon would require a large, sustained effort on the 
Confederation's part and the use of many vessels.  For example, the vessels 
projecting the two meson beams would have to do so from beyond the star's 
jump limit, otherwise the mission would be a suicidal one.  That suggests 
that the vessels would need to be very large and very specialized to carry 
and operate the (spinal mounted?) meson beam equipment.  Whether the 
projection equipment could be switched between a weapons role and a Star 
Trigger role is unknown.  The Star Trigger vessels may have to be convoyed 
and protected by significant numbers of warships during any deployment.
     This may be part of the reason why the Sword Worlds haven't been on the 
recieving end of one yet.  The devastation that such a strike would also 
inflict on both Imperial and Confederation systems may also be part of the 
answer.
     <<< SPOILER ALERT >>>














     The current Darrian Star Trigger does not work.  The adventure in CT's 
AM 8, the Darrians, has the PCs being hired to perform a multi-world search 
for archival information regarding the two scientific projects that 
triggered the original Maghiz.  If, IYTU, this mission fails or the 
reason(s) for it is/are not suspected, the Star Trigger is little more than 
an extremely effective bogeyman.
     As a strategic deterrent, the Star Trigger works because BOTH parties, 
the Darrians and their enemies, believe it does.  Zho agents probing Star 
Trigger personnel will learn that those personnel believe that the Trigger 
works and thus "confirm" it's existence.
     One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star 
Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was 
faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon says:
>ObTrav2:  Tod, how do we arrive at various penetration and damage values for
>CT,
>MT, etc.?  FFS might be easy, and maybe we could work our way backwards.
>Other game systems, such as PCCS, are extremely easy to back-calculate.

I was going to actually do some work on my own to find the requisite 
formulae, but that is guaranteed to take a lot longer, I'm sure.  It 
wouldn't be surprising if Tod can recite them from memory.  :->

>Now, I'm up there with Jeff Cooper in wondering why recoil is a problem,
>but then again, I've never tried a .460 Weatherby.  Might make a flincher
>out of me.

Recoil is a problem.  As my right eyebrow can testify.  Every time I'd go 
to the rifle range, the flange on the carrying handle of the M-16A1 would 
kick into my eyebrow.  Never took more than a dozen rounds for the eyebrow 
to be bleeding.  But it didn't stop me from shooting about 238 to 242 out 
of 250 on a consistent basis.  Not competition material, but just shy of 
it.  I got to play with the M-16A2 once and got to qualify with it one time 
before I was discharged.  The butt stock is three-eighths of an inch 
longer, and that helped with eye relief a little.  I did still bleed, but 
it took probably 30 rounds to get me bleeding, and the bruising and 
bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but 
at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier 
to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always 
wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.

A lot of weapons are awkward in the first few rounds of full auto, but can 
be brought back onto target if you continue firing a long or very long 
burst.  Every BAR gunner I've ever talked to said it's very controllable 
and accurate with that technique, for instance.  And a couple of people 
have told me they could hip fire the 5.56 gatling gun accurately that way 
(see the movie 'Predator' for a very fictional example).  The phrase I keep 
hearing from people who've relied on this technique is "you just ride it".

There's a difference between recoil and felt recoil.  One of the main 
things that can be done to reduce felt recoil is change the design of the 
rifle stock from having curves intended to fit your body better to being a 
straight "in line" stock, like the M-16 and most assault rifles and battle 
rifles.  It distributes the forces from the recoil better.

In other words, there are a lot of things that can be done to control or 
manage recoil.  And to some extent, troops can be trained or can train 
themselves to suppress or forget the flinch response.  (Myself as an 
example, above.)  "Flinching is for fairies," is probably how my old friend 
would sum that up.  But I wouldn't expect something with _felt_ recoil 
comparable to a .458 Winchester Magnum to be something you could put on 
general issue to troops, it's just too much for most of them, especially 
when you think about them firing it often hundreds of times per day instead 
of just a couple of times like a big game hunter.  Tod's high performance 
gauss weapon in his previous example was chosen for being at the upper 
limit of what is practical.  For humans.  One might suppose Aslan could 
handle more.  And other races with more radically different designs might 
be more capable of handling much greater.  Just as I expect Vargr can't 
handle as much as humans and many other races even less than that.  Droyne, 
anybody?

By the way, they call it a carrying handle but don't _ever_ carry it that 
way unless you want everyone in the area who outranks you jumping up and 
down and going crazy on you.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <200204071732.DOF00615@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
<snip about weapons, and then a mention of the snub pistol>

I thought that the snub pistol was, like the accelerator 
rifle, something like the Gyrojet of old.

I've been thinking that like Tod says, the diameter of the 
round is too small to have any actual HEAP (HEAT) jet 
effect.  A long time ago, the snub pistol IMTO became an 
over/under pistol firing a rocket round.  The diameter is 
25mm (very impressive if you're looking down the wrong end), 
and the round is essentially a small grenade, not unlike the 
OICW round.  Designed to minimize fragments, except very 
small shaped charge, rather like an HEDP round without the 
extra fragments.  Still, given the backblast, you don't want 
to fire it without a faceshield (which is why users are 
generally in a vacc suit, combat armor, or some such).  Made 
specifically for zero-g combat, and to penetrate suits at 
shipboard ranges.

ObTrav:  There was a great effort in the Phoenix Command 
combat system, in the High Tech supplement to design weapons 
specifically for shipboard use.  These weapons were 
purposefully designed to limit penetration - there was even a 
standard maximum penetration depth in equipment that was 
allowed, so that shipboard equipment that was vital could be 
built with this standoff in mind.  Think about what would 
happen if there was a circular firing squad in Traveller on 
the typical merchant ship bridge - even if we're only using 
shotguns and the occasional laser carbine.  What weapons 
might we consider (including non-lethals) if we're going to 
be able to board - and subsequently use - a ship?

Me, I'm willing to try the sticky foam dispenser.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407111020.027e6d50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5D1E5.379BD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 9:19 AM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

Lanning, I'm getting a bit worried when I see my name appearing in so many
of your posts.  I am not the gauss weapon prophet.

> 
> There have been posts (primarily from Tod Glenn) since my post quoted above
> that let's say strongly suggest it would be unlikely that anyone would
> bother to build gauss weapons that way.

Note that I did a comparison of a gauss and non-gauss versions of the same
rifle.  The rifle in question was the M1A (semi version of the M-14) in
7.62x51mm.  The only difference in performance is that a gauss weapon will
have less recoil firing the same bullet at the same velocity.  This is
solely because there is no expelled propellant by byproducts contributing to
recoil.

[snip]

 
> Please note that I am not _rejecting_ claims from gauss weapon
> proponents.  I am being slow to accept them.  I should also point out what
> I posted earlier:  I am reconsidering my house rule on gauss weapon damage,
> mostly because of things Tod Glenn has said.  I made those house rules many
> years ago and haven't been prompted to change them since.  But maybe I
> will, now.  They're just a science fiction item in a science fiction game,
> and I don't feel it's criminally stupid of me to make gauss weapons IMTU
> behave differently than gauss weapons in someone else's TU.  My players
> have been happy with my rules for twenty years, and generally the ones with
> the most knowledge of military firearms have been the happiest.  That tells
> me that my rules aren't just completely ludicrous.  If my version of gauss
> weapons bothers you, then maybe you will find some relief to know that I
> wholeheartedly agree about those magic snub pistols not being able to
> penetrate armor as well as they canonically do.  IMTU, they don't.  You can
> have a HEAP round in your snub pistol, and it may improve it's penetration
> in many circumstances.  But it will still penetrate more poorly than a HEAP
> round from a standard autopistol.  My usual snub pistol description is
> roughly the .25 auto "lady's gun".

Just bear in mind that HEAP round have to travel slowly and can't be spun or
they won't work.  If you look at the velocities of modern AT missiles,
you'll note that they're very low, and for a reason.  The warhead needs time
to form the penetrator jet.  it's unlikely that snub weapons are going to
have stand-off noses, so velocity will have to be low.  Spinning the
projectile disperses the jet, so that's out too.
> 
> If you're curious about what I would change my house rules to say on gauss
> weapons, here's what I am thinking about maybe doing.  Or I may decide not
> to since it's been fun to play with the rules I'm used to and it's just a
> game.  I'm thinking about crunching the numbers with the formulae helpfully
> provided by Tod Glenn using canonical gauss weapon designs and probably a
> couple or three other designs of my own.  Translate the results back into
> Traveller combat stats.  Work through each of the ammo types I believe
> would be useful and decide what differences to implement for a projectile
> that is much longer, proportionally than comparable gunpowder bullets.  I'm
> guessing that some ammo types will be more expensive and others
> cheaper.  And HEAP may be less effective because higher velocities and
> probably faster twists and smaller diameters can be counterproductive for
> that type of ammo, but perhaps the longer projectile will help.  I am also
> thinking about making the gauss weapon itself a lot more expensive.  Or
> not.  I can think of reasonable arguments both ways.  And making gauss
> weapons more fragile than gunpowder weapons.  Or again, perhaps not.


See above.  HEAP is unusable at high velocities and high rates of spin. A
few other things to consider:  A coil gun requires a ferromagnetic
projectile.  No lead or other material.  If it's a railgun, the armature
(projectile) just has to be conductive.  At hypervelocity, there is little
to be gained using special projectiles.  The canonical description of the
gauss round as a hollow point with an armor-piercing core id far more
complicated that necessary. The example used previously is more than
adequately lethal.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAEENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5D411.379C1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 5:54 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@comcast.net wrote:

> ObTrav: Can the expert spot the vehicle with the railgun?
> Look for the longer, heavy duty barrel, perhaps with an
> external truss.
> 
> A railgun would probably require more rigid construction
> to resist this force, which would be considerable if the weapon
> was designed for very high power (like a vehicle mounted weapon).
> 
> The barrel might be much more substantial than a typical
> slugthrower barrel, which has most of its reinforcement in the
> breech area.  

I remember some photos of the railguns built at the University of Texas for
the Army FMBT project.  They look pretty much identical to conventional
barrels, except for the square bore opening.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5D942.379C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 6:04 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@comcast.net wrote:

> ObTrav2:  Tod, how do we arrive at various penetration and damage values for
> CT,
> MT, etc.?  FFS might be easy, and maybe we could work our way backwards.
> Other game systems, such as PCCS, are extremely easy to back-calculate.

I have copies of both FFS and FFS2.  AFAICT, CT figures are just arbitrary.

FFS2 uses SQRT(ME)/10.5 to calculate damage.  I've never liked determining
damage bases solely on muzzle energy.  Instead, I use my own formula where
damage is bases on actual energy transferred to the target.

I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.  The base human target
is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.  We take the
initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the
remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.  From this we
can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.  We use this energy
to calculate damage.

In the case of things like conventional handguns, there are lots of
published sources with total ballistic gelatin penetrations.  Knowing the
density of this material, we can back calculate the retardation and energy
transferred.

This systems gives a measure of 'actual damage'  and we don't have to relay
on then 3D rules and 'lost energy due to 'shoot through'.

> 
> Now, I'm up there with Jeff Cooper in wondering why recoil is a problem,
> but then again, I've never tried a .460 Weatherby.  Might make a flincher
> out of me.

I shoot my .458 win mag Whitworth Express rifle all the time.  Preferred
loading is 500gn hard cast bullet with 72 gn 4895.  I'm not a big guy, but
if find this load 'stimulation' to shoot.  I've never really been bothered
by recoil.  Most people who shoot this do it only once.  I will say a tight
hold on the rifle is essential.  I probably have done my shoulder any good.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 10:18 AM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Recoil is a problem.  As my right eyebrow can testify.  Every time I'd go
> to the rifle range, the flange on the carrying handle of the M-16A1 would
> kick into my eyebrow.  Never took more than a dozen rounds for the eyebrow
> to be bleeding.  But it didn't stop me from shooting about 238 to 242 out
> of 250 on a consistent basis.

You've got talent.  With the old M16A1, I always put the tip on my nose on
the charging handle to make sure I had exactly the same cheek weld.  I'd
often shoot the M16 from my chin or groin to demonstrate it's lack of
recoil.

> bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but
> at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier
> to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always
> wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.

Try shooting one full auto.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3CB08DED.97126F82@virgin.net>

--------------8640A99E3980EE50F0202E80
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
>
> [snip]
> Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
> 20 km/sec.
>
>
> As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
> APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.  The first example you give is 10%
> of that.  The second example has a free recoil somewhere above the elephant
> gun.

Don't disagree there.  But I was talking about a small infantry weapon, not a
vehicle/free standing anti-armour weapon

Si

--------------8640A99E3980EE50F0202E80
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
"John T. Kwon" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Tod Glenn says
<p>[snip]
<br>Let's crank the numbers.&nbsp; Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile
at
<br>20 km/sec.
<br>&nbsp;
<p>As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
<br>APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.&nbsp; The first example you give
is 10%
<br>of that.&nbsp; The second example has a free recoil somewhere above
the elephant
<br>gun.</blockquote>
Don't disagree there.&nbsp; But I <u>was</u> talking about a small infantry
weapon, not a vehicle/free standing anti-armour weapon
<p>Si</html>

--------------8640A99E3980EE50F0202E80--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020407111020.027e6d50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB08FDE.F6F24BCE@virgin.net>

laning wrote:

> Si quotes me then says:
> >laning wrote:
> >
> > > Let's see if I can express myself better this time.

[huge snip]

Yep.  I have no problem with anything you say.  You did however, have a concern
with the damage from a thin-body penetrator compared (as well as you can) with a
'standard' round and i think I might be able to help there.  One thing about
hypervelocity (and hence hyper energy as it is the velocity squared that more than
compensates for the greatly reduced mass) penetrators doing damage is that the
target area (IIRC) behaves as if it were a fluid, IRRESPECTIVE of what it is made
of (depending of course upon the energy of the penetrator).

I am sure someone will correct me (in the politest possible terms) if i am wrong.

;-)

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB08DED.97126F82@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5DE82.379D4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 11:20 AM, Si at mr.fingle@virgin.net wrote:

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
Tod Glenn says 

[snip] 
Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
20 km/sec. 
 

As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.  The first example you give is 10%
of that.  The second example has a free recoil somewhere above the elephant
gun.
Don't disagree there.  But I was talking about a small infantry weapon, not
a vehicle/free standing anti-armour weapon

A weapon with a 4 gm projectile being fired at 20 km/s is not a small
infantry weapon.  The recoil is obscene.  I'd say an upper limit on free
recoil should be no more than 50 J, with 25 J being more realistic.

Si 


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 13:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 12:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
Message-ID: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

	Okay, so I'm considering writing up my own shipbuilding rules ("Yeah,
yeah, kid, you and everybody else - take a number and wait in line."),
and there were a couple of factors that I haven't seen (or have missed)
in the various ships rules in different editions of Traveller:

	Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 'workstations',
but it seems to me that most ships (at least ones that carry passengers)
would require some sort of galley for food preperation.  Has anyone seen
or worked up rules for the minimum size of a ship's galley, based on the
number of crew and passengers carried?

	Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
on the number of ship's crew and other factors?


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."





________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 14:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun Apr  7 13:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1de72$5c0c6a00$2f7de40c@loki>

Both have always been outside the rules proper though some systems have
made galleys/stores something one could add if they desired.

I remember a lot of debate about the topic once upon a time. The general
conclusion--abhorred by some--was that the stateroom figure subsumed the
common spaces required to support them.

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 14:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 13:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>

--part1_30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 07/04/02 19:10:37 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


> I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.  The base human target
> is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.  We take the
> initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the
> remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.  From this we
> can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.  We use this energy
> to calculate damage.
> 

Isn't 30cm a little thick? 18cm - 20cm is the normal figure I see quoted.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 07/04/02 19:10:37 GMT Daylight Time, webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.&nbsp; The base human target<BR>
is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.&nbsp; We take the<BR>
initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the<BR>
remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.&nbsp; From this we<BR>
can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.&nbsp; We use this energy<BR>
to calculate damage.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Isn't 30cm a little thick? 18cm - 20cm is the normal figure I see quoted.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8D60220.379F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 1:58 PM, CHam628781@aol.com at CHam628781@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 07/04/02 19:10:37 GMT Daylight Time,
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.  The base human target
is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.  We take the
initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the
remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.  From this we
can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.  We use this energy
to calculate damage.


Isn't 30cm a little thick? 18cm - 20cm is the normal figure I see quoted.

Charles


I measured the thickness of a few friends and came up with about 12" from
front to back for an average chest thickness, or 30 cm.  YMMV.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches - correction.
In-Reply-To: <B8D5D942.379C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8D60286.379FA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 11:08 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

I just looked over my calculations and noted that I forgot to divide by 2
when calculating energy. (i.e. e= mv^2/2).  Please note the error.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407154204.033249d0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn, replying to my rifle range scores with the M-16A1:
>You've got talent.  With the old M16A1, I always put the tip on my nose on
>the charging handle to make sure I had exactly the same cheek weld.  I'd
>often shoot the M16 from my chin or groin to demonstrate it's lack of
>recoil.

Thanks, that's encouraging to hear.  And I used the exact same technique 
with my nose on the charging handle to more precisely get the same cheek 
weld.  One of my buddies in boot camp may have done permanent damage to his 
arm by getting too tight a loop sling all day at the range.  He shot well, 
ne'ertheless.  Chin or groin?  The recoil I recall is more than enough to 
discourage me from trying that one.  It was popular for the marksmanship 
instructors and coaches to tell the troops that, "The M-16 fires a .223 
calibre bullet.  That's the same as a .22.  You aren't going to be afraid 
of a .22 are you?"  This was more useful as propaganda than actual 
fact.  Most of the Americans recruited into today's military have no prior 
experience with firearms of any kind so this might work.  They at least 
have heard enough to know that a .22 is a pretty wimpy little thing.


> > bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but
> > at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier
> > to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always
> > wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.
>
>Try shooting one full auto.

I'd love to!  My curiosity will never be satisfied til I've tried out all 
these weapons that I use in gaming.  And who knows, maybe there'll be the 
chance at the big annual WW2 gathering in Reading, Pennsylvania this 
June.  Sort of like a Ren Faire for WW2 enthusiasts, reenactors, costumers 
who like that period, and everyone else.  It includes a three-day 
reenactment of the Battle of the Bulge.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407172540.00aa2c20@pop.wizard.net>

> > bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but
> > at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier
> > to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always
> > wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.
>
>Try shooting one full auto.

As long as I'm at it, I'd be very interested in shooting the Italian 
BM-59  (I think it's 59), which was essentially the M-14 with some 
improvements.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DE82.379D4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB08DED.97126F82@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407172827.00acfec0@pop.wizard.net>

>
>A weapon with a 4 gm projectile being fired at 20 km/s is not a small
>infantry weapon.  The recoil is obscene.  I'd say an upper limit on free
>recoil should be no more than 50 J, with 25 J being more realistic.

Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread, mentioning the 
ability of various Traveller races to cope with recoil, I should have also 
mentioned battle dress.  That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more 
recoil.  But how much?

-Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F33B1HQroJCIoo8oEoL000062ea@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "How about the Ilelesh Revolt? Didn't the Imperium scrub the sector
capital clean of life as an example to others?"


Mr. Boleyn,

     Thanks, I forgot about that one.
     The Imperium evacuated the population from Ilelish's tropical regions 
and "scrubbed" the "equatorial regions free from life."
     I'd assume (a shocking habit) that the people involved were simply 
moved to the planet's temperate zones rather than off world.  Having the 
remaining population living next door to the lesson being "taught" would 
fulfill the Imperium's requirements nicely.
     The IN then sterilized the equatorial zone with a bombardment of 
enhanced radiation warheads (neutron bombs).  This would allow them to kill 
off everything without triggering a "nuclear winter" of sorts.  They may 
have followed up the bombardment with liberal use of large meson gun spinal 
mounts to "pitchfork" the terrain.
     Ilelish's equatorial zone must have looked like a baked and barren 
jumble of craters, tells, and fissures.  New Mordor anyone?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <200204072135.DON00704@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning asks
>
>Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread, 
>mentioning the ability of various Traveller races to cope 
>with recoil, I should have also mentioned battle dress.  
>That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more recoil.  But 
>how much?
>

Good question.  I've always wondered about this, because if 
you could carry large weapons and handle high recoil, you 
would have a semi-auto rifle that fired high velocity 20mm 
(not low velocity 20mm like the OICW).

20mm californium rounds, that is.  The one part of Striker I 
really liked.  Hit someone in battledress and watch the 
little mushroom cloud.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:55:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:55:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB168FD.22000.23BF80@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 11:15, Tod Glenn wrote:

> You've got talent.  With the old M16A1, I always put the tip on my nose
> on the charging handle to make sure I had exactly the same cheek weld. 
> I'd often shoot the M16 from my chin or groin to demonstrate it's lack
> of recoil.

My preferred method of supporting the M16A1 was to have my right hand 
(I'm a lefty) open and simply rest the forend on my palm. I found the 
rifle would bounce and then recover to the same point of aim all by 
itself, which made getting a good  sight picture for following shots 
quick and easy. Don't try this with the AUG - you'll lose it and 
probably get the optic sight banged into your eyebrow. It may be 
heavier but it's rather butt heavy so it jumps quite a bit more than 
the M16A1.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D60220.379F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 14:03, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I measured the thickness of a few friends and came up with about 12"
> from front to back for an average chest thickness, or 30 cm.  YMMV.

Do you give out less damage for hits in thinner places, or do you just 
assume a poor damage roll reflects this? And wouldn't the chest tend to 
be less dense than other parts of the body due to the 'air-filled' 
lungs?

Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth 
for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and 
for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females 
it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing. 
Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how 
old the data is.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407180357.0331dc40@pop.wizard.net>

Perry says he's developing shipbuilding rules:
>         Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 
> 'workstations',
>but it seems to me that most ships (at least ones that carry passengers)
>would require some sort of galley for food preperation.  Has anyone seen
>or worked up rules for the minimum size of a ship's galley, based on the
>number of crew and passengers carried?

Nothing I'm aware of.  And you make a very good point.  Perhaps finding Web 
sites or actual books on kitchen design is the best thing for 
that.  Especially restaurant kitchens.

We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including ironing.  Every 
service a hotel provides, basically.

>         Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
>amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
>other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
>that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
>rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
>on the number of ship's crew and other factors?

There are rules in all or most versions of Traveller for baggage and cargo 
allowances for passengers.  I assume baggage goes in their stateroom and 
cargo is containerized and placed in the cargo hold.  Ship's lockers are 
certainly recommended, and usually appear in published deck plans and 
privately designed ones.  But that doesn't leave pantry space, linen space, 
etc.  You might want to find a textbook on hotel planning, and look at 
military field manuals and technical manuals for logistics planning.  And 
surely the real life sailors have some knowledge about this.

In fact maybe both your questions and all related questions can be answered 
using real world naval architecture references.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEODCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Just finished reading a hardcopy of AK wounds in Vietnam.
A medical summary report on "Da Nang lung" which was 
pulmonary edema brought on by unregulated overuse of 
intravenous fluid replacement (without regard to electrolyte
balance).  Death was the result, usually two to three days
after successful repair operations.

The point I nearly missed is that most rifle wounds in the
prone are plunging fire which enters the shoulder area,
and failing deflection on the shoulder blade, penetrates in
a downward diagonal towards the pelvis.  This caused a
lot of damage, which, if it missed kidneys and major
blood vessels, was not immediately fatal.  It did
necessitate a lot of repair, and the lack of knowledge
in the 1960s about fluid replacement resulted in death.

The distance from the shoulder blade to the hip socket,
taken at a diagonal, is a considerable distance.  Most AK
rounds evidently stopped after traveling this far in the
body. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407180357.0331dc40@pop.wizard.net>
References: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407151942.0248eec0@mail.verizon.net>

>We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including 
>ironing.  Every service a hotel provides, basically.

Even hookers?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB168FD.22000.23BF80@localhost>
References: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407181218.033aa1f0@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert:
>My preferred method of supporting the M16A1 was to have my right hand
>(I'm a lefty) open and simply rest the forend on my palm. I found the
>rifle would bounce and then recover to the same point of aim all by
>itself, which made getting a good  sight picture for following shots
>quick and easy. Don't try this with the AUG - you'll lose it and
>probably get the optic sight banged into your eyebrow. It may be
>heavier but it's rather butt heavy so it jumps quite a bit more than
>the M16A1.

Yes.  You want your rifle sling stretched nice and tight, partly so that 
you can wedge your foreward hand into the narrow angle between the taut 
sling and the ...argh how can I have _forgotten_ the proper 
nomenclature!  Just shoot me now.

Anyway, with your hand tightly wedged in, and a fairly stable triangle of 
tension between that forward hand, its elbow nicely resting on the ground 
or your knee, and the opposite shoulder, you should go right back to the 
same sight picture pretty quickly and naturally.

Firing in the "offhand position" was always the hardest for me.  Prone, 
kneeling, sitting, or anything else you can do to brace against something 
immovable (like the ground or a wall or a tree) makes a huge, huge 
difference.  Firing with nothing in particular to help you hold the thing 
steady is tough.  Standing, "rapid" fire, is tricky.  I started out just 
doing it through sheer concentration and did okay.  I then experimented 
with figure eight and other similar techniques when I heard about 
them.  Which were good for improving my score a little but seemed to have 
very little practical application on the battlefield.  I think I would have 
been great at trench warfare.  I don't know about patrolling, though.  Even 
someone who doesn't anticipate or flinch is going to have a tough time 
aiming at and hitting anything if everybody is running/walking around.

For referees with little or no experience shooting, please keep in mind the 
importance of firing from a braced position (prone is probably the most 
ideal) and also the importance of having many seconds to aim at an unmoving 
target.  Or if it's moving, then moving very steadily and predictably is 
almost as good as immobile.  Also, untrained or insufficiently trained 
personnel have a strong tendency to anticipate the recoil by actually 
raising the front of the weapon themselves as they squeeze the trigger.

I suspect anticipation is the single greatest cause of close-range pistol 
combats that result in nobody being hit by a bullet.  It happens all the 
time.  Anticipation, fear, adrenaline, inability to concentrate well enough 
to remember to try to use even the most elementary and easy principles of 
marksmanship.  The more I learn about how many reasons there are for people 
not hitting their opponent in combat, the more respect I develop for Alvin 
York.  And the more important I think it is to deal with your fear ahead of 
time, so you can you put it out of your mind during combat.

--Laning
"Fear is the mind killer."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
References: <B8D60220.379F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407183334.027f11c0@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert:
>Do you give out less damage for hits in thinner places, or do you just
>assume a poor damage roll reflects this? And wouldn't the chest tend to
>be less dense than other parts of the body due to the 'air-filled'
>lungs?
>
>Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth
>for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and
>for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females
>it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing.
>Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how
>old the data is.

Reporter:  "How can you shoot children and teenagers like that, Corporal?"
Corporal:  "Easy.  You use a lighter load."

-Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEODCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407183737.028bbdd0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon:
>The distance from the shoulder blade to the hip socket,
>taken at a diagonal, is a considerable distance.  Most AK
>rounds evidently stopped after traveling this far in the
>body.

Useful to keep in mind when shooting at K'Kree or the like.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEODCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB173E1.15599.4E49DB@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 18:15, John T. Kwon wrote:

> The distance from the shoulder blade to the hip socket,
> taken at a diagonal, is a considerable distance.  Most AK
> rounds evidently stopped after traveling this far in the
> body. 

IME a 7.62x39mm round when fired from an SKS, which has a longer barrel 
than an AK-47, at a goat from a fairly short range (maybe 20 yards) 
will travel through its entire length (in this case approximately 2 
feet) and stop inside the skin without exiting. That would be about the 
same distance, allowing for the elasticity of the goat's skin. The goat 
died effectively instantly because the bullet passed through its heart 
and the major vessels on top of it.

Just another data point.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407181218.033aa1f0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CB168FD.22000.23BF80@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB17502.746.52B49D@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 18:32, laning wrote:

> For referees with little or no experience shooting, please keep in mind
> the importance of firing from a braced position (prone is probably the
> most ideal) and also the importance of having many seconds to aim at an
> unmoving target.  Or if it's moving, then moving very steadily and
> predictably is almost as good as immobile.

But if they're ducking and weaving and bolting from cover to cover in 
an unpredicable manner you can pretty much forget more than the most 
basic aiming. In these cases I recommend a machinegun.

Also followup shots from a trained shooter are much faster than the 
first shot, as you've already done most of the aiming for the first 
shot - all you're doing for the later shots is correcting for the 
effects of recoil.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB17502.746.52B49D@localhost>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOECGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Rupert Boleyn says
[But if they're ducking and weaving and bolting from cover to cover in 
an unpredicable manner you can pretty much forget more than the most 
basic aiming. In these cases I recommend a machinegun.]

At ranges up to about thirty yards, using a pump-action paintball
gun with crude post sights, I was able to hit people who were running,
dodging, popping their heads up over cover intermittently...

That's not full auto, nor is it a high velocity weapon.

No problem.

The running people don't dodge nearly as much as they think.  This is
more of a factor where time of flight of the round is significant.  Figure
a tenth of a second for every hundred yards of flight, and you can see
that the dodge is really something that has to be anticipated rather 
than seen.  Below "tenth of a second" range, dodging is relatively 
ineffective, and tracking a running target is largely a matter of practice.
I had an instructor who claimed to kill VC bikers on 1-beer bets - that is,
he would use an M-14, and if he got them on the first round, he got a beer.
Some of his friends from that time laughed, because they remember him
*always* getting his beer.

Oddly, I do better on moving targets if I'm standing.

People who peek out from behind cover only get to do it once with me.
What's even more funny is that most of the people I've hit in 
paintball like this probably saw the one I put right over their
head to make sure of where the next one was going. 

ObTrav:  Your enemy will use the terrain around you to spot the
fall of his fire, and will adjust accordingly.  If you stay in the
same spot, and peek out repeatedly, you're going to get nailed.  They
may even resort to tricks to get you to look twice.  There are many
anecdotes about people being killed when they "just look".

ObTrav: Shooting at a moving target is a matter of practice if the
target moves in a straight line, regardless of velocity. The exception
comes when the target is "uncertain" as in the next ObTrav.

ObTrav: Dodging effectiveness is the result of "movement uncertainty".
The best explanation of this is that after you release the round,
the target has time to move.  For a target at 500 yards, this can be
nearly half a second -- unless you're using a laser rifle.  Imagine
trying to anticipate whether or not a moving man will stop, bend down,
turn or not nearly 1/2 second into the future.  So you put a lot of 
rounds into his general vicinity with a machinegun.  They say that 
the real sniper is the man who can anticipate this movement. The only
combat system that I've seen that models this is PCCS.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
Message-ID: <OF0BD69FC0.8B0C14DC-ONCA256B94.00752218@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

I haven't seen "GDWGAMES" around for a while.

I know Loren was having access problems - does anyone know if that is 
still the case?

Failing that, perhaps you could select one of the following:
        1.      On holidays;
        2.      Attempting to retrieve gear from his fabled lock-up on the 
other side of the US;
        3.      Snowed under (and as he's in Texas, you _know_ I mean this 
as an analogy for workload! ;-);
        4.      Banned from 'Net access by the Illuminati;
        5.      Stuck in a box in Warehouse 23 (maybe with some Zhodani 
infiltrators, cf. Challenge 60 or thereabouts);
        6.      Shipped out on a _Donosev_ (along with Stuart Ferris, 
didn't he just get his Surveyor's Cert.?);
        7.      All of the above;
        8.      None of the above [insert your version of events here].

Que?

<sigh> It must be Monday.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
Message-ID: <200204072341.DOR00933@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I keep wondering about those passenger prices.  It doesn't 
make any sense.  If I fly from Washington, DC to Newark, NJ, 
it's cheaper than flying from Washington, DC to Los Angeles, 
CA.

There is also a hub system in the US, which rewards you for 
transferring in places like Cincinnati and Atlanta, but I'll 
leave that out.

So, we've got two merchant ships.  One is Jump-1, and goes to 
and from a nearby star.  The other is Jump-5, and goes to 
another star 5 parsecs away.  Theoretically, if there's a 
Jump-1 route, you could take the Jump-1 ship to get to the 
Jump-5 destination, but it would take five tickets to get 
there.  Now, if I'm a Jump-5 ship, and I'm going 5 parsecs, 
the next fastest ship (a Jump-4 perhaps) can get you there 
for two tickets.  So what should I charge you?  I'm betting 
that I could charge more than the price of a single ticket, 
and you would still take my ship because it's less and you 
get there a week ahead of time.

Has anyone hashed out what ticket prices really should be?
Or cargo transport, for that matter.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOECGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <3CB17502.746.52B49D@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB18225.32194.860812@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 19:09, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn says
> [But if they're ducking and weaving and bolting from cover to cover in
> an unpredicable manner you can pretty much forget more than the most
> basic aiming. In these cases I recommend a machinegun.]
> 
> At ranges up to about thirty yards, using a pump-action paintball
> gun with crude post sights, I was able to hit people who were running,
> dodging, popping their heads up over cover intermittently...
> 
> That's not full auto, nor is it a high velocity weapon.
> 
> No problem.

That's like using a shipboard laser at sub-light second ranges though - 
they don't have time to move out of the way. Besides at that range 
doing much the same thing I didn't use the sights most of the time, but 
just pointed the gun at the victim - it was faster and just as (in) 
accurate.
 
> The running people don't dodge nearly as much as they think.

That's probably because running and dodging are generally incompatible.

> Oddly, I do better on moving targets if I'm standing.

I'm not surprised - it's easier to get a smooth motion and a good 
follow-through.
 
> People who peek out from behind cover only get to do it once with me.
> What's even more funny is that most of the people I've hit in paintball
> like this probably saw the one I put right over their head to make sure
> of where the next one was going. 

People who peek from behind cover more than once deserve what they get, 
IMO. So do people who come to a firefight without backup and buddies.

> ObTrav: Dodging effectiveness is the result of "movement uncertainty".
> The best explanation of this is that after you release the round, the
> target has time to move.  For a target at 500 yards, this can be nearly
> half a second -- unless you're using a laser rifle.  Imagine trying to
> anticipate whether or not a moving man will stop, bend down, turn or not
> nearly 1/2 second into the future.  So you put a lot of rounds into his
> general vicinity with a machinegun.  They say that the real sniper is
> the man who can anticipate this movement. The only combat system that
> I've seen that models this is PCCS.

IIRC you needed the advanced expansion for this.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020407234850.57151.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
If that retinal scanner makes the crew sit through
three or four rescans before it lets them in, or
mistakes them for a terrorist a couple times a week,
expect the retinal scanner to be bypassed before the
ship comes out of its first jump.
END QUOTE

Thats what fire axes are for!

HAL:Come on Dave be reasonable! Put the axe down!
Dave, Dave! NOOOOOOOO...0).^%^$&9&##5.

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 18:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 17:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <20020408000859.81953.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
People who strap on a PGMP-15 to go to the
'fresher annoy me,  IMTU they'll have to make
do with a shotgun.
END QUOTE

Well if nasty things happen to you every time you go
to the fresher you get paranoid! In my old group
(non-trav) we had a particularly nasty Ref, it got to
the point where my characters refused to go any where
with out two other armed characters! And I still died
alot! Though I survived longer than most. The greatest
thing ever was all the munchkins we had in the group
they where very good for cannon fodder ;) After a
while it got quite hard to walk anywhere due to the
amount of gear I was carrying. 

Me:All right essential equipment only, 3 LAW's check,
powered battle armour check, heavy machine gun check,
2000 rounds check, 12 white phosporous grenades check,
12 frag grenades check, semi-auto shotgun check, 200
rounds solid check, 200 rounds flechette check,
satelite phone check, 12mm pistol check, 100 rounds
12mm check, 20kg C4 check, 2 litres holy water check
(can never be to careful), 6 customised throwing
penguins check. <To other PC's> Okay Im going to the
bathroom now. If you here me scream or Im not back in
15 minutes call in an airstrike.

;)

James (Oh no, not Cthulhu again!) Ramsay

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 18:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 17:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
Message-ID: <95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9@aol.com>

--part1_95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Last time I spoke to him (just a couple of days ago, actually) he had just
acquired a new computer for home use and was in the process of getting
set up on it. I imagine we'll see GDWGAMES online again before too much
longer.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Last time I spoke to him (just a couple of days ago, actually) he had just
<BR>acquired a new computer for home use and was in the process of getting
<BR>set up on it. I imagine we'll see GDWGAMES online again before too much
<BR>longer.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 18:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr  7 17:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
References: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0E12F.6A9B3511@premier.net>


knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> 
>         Okay, so I'm considering writing up my own shipbuilding rules ("Yeah,
> yeah, kid, you and everybody else - take a number and wait in line."),
> and there were a couple of factors that I haven't seen (or have missed)
> in the various ships rules in different editions of Traveller:
> 
>         Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 'workstations',
> but it seems to me that most ships (at least ones that carry passengers)
> would require some sort of galley for food preperation.  Has anyone seen
> or worked up rules for the minimum size of a ship's galley, based on the
> number of crew and passengers carried?

FF&S2 describes two types of galleys for food preparation: Ordinary and
Full.  An Ordinary galley requires .2 m^3 per person served, with a
minimum size of 4 m^3.  Meager through Good rations can be competently
prepared in an Ordinary galley (1 cook per 40 sophonts).  A Full galley
requires .3 m^3 per person served, with a minimum size of 12 m^3. 
Preparation of Excellent meals requires a Full galley and a cook with
Steward 3+ or Cook 2+ (1 cook per 20 sophonts if preparing Excellent
meals; 1 cook per 40 sophonts otherwise).  Food storage is discussed in
Tables 211 and 212; volume required for a given number of sophont-weeks
of rations depends on food quality and TL.

Larger AuricTech designs tend to have sufficient Full galleys to support
a full complement of crew and passengers, along with an equal capacity
in Ordinary galleys.  When such ships are operating with a standard
complement, the Ordinary galleys are generally used as "snack bars," and
are attached to facilities such as crew lounges or the Combat
Information Center; if a ship is packed to double occupancy, the
Ordinary galleys provide the required "overflow" food preparation
capacity to serve the additional occupants.
> 
>         Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
> amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
> other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
> that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
> rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
> on the number of ship's crew and other factors?

Again, FF&S2 discusses ship's lockers, though in less detail.  Page 15
states that the volume required is "designer's choice," with suggested
values of .5 m^3 per 1,000 m^3 of ship or per crew member.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
civilians.  It has little or no military application,
contrary to popular mythos.
END QUOTE

True. But......

They don't like it up 'em mister mainwaring, they
don't like it up 'em ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:06:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:06:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020407190105.2914E27A15@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c1de9a$066819a0$e35e8690@computer>

> From: Robert Houghton
> What about the ratio of 'civilian' deaths to 'military' deaths? Who gets
> the award for most civilian casulties compared to military casulties,
> not overall numbers?

Hmm.  Well, if you find an example where there were *no* military
casualties, that ratio will give you a division by zero error.  Try the PNG
intervention in Vanuatu in 1980 for an example of this - the *only* casualty
was a civilian.

Of the wars I listed (WWII, Taiping Rebellion, and WWI), the civilian
casualties were huge in the first two, and *relatively* small in the latter.

Another interesting mass-death situation is the Stalinist forced
collectivizations in the early 30s.  This was essentially a civil war,
although militarily it was one sided.  It was a product of pure
incompetence - industry had been neglected, so the cities couldn't afford to
buy food from the peasants - result:  starvation, forcible requisitioning
and massacres.

China has had a few "interesting" times.  The decades before 1949 saw almost
continuous civil wars, foreign invasions, famines, epidemics, and all the
other horrors you can imagine.  After that, there was the famine that
coincided with the "Great Leap Forward", reversing the Leap's direction, and
the civil war called the "Cultural Revolution", when rival factions
organised mobs to attack each other.

The partition of India was a delightful little blood bath, too.  There are
just so many other cases, too.  John's selection of horrors was actually
comparatively mild, if you think about it.

My guess for biggest pile of dead civilians would still be WWII, though.  As
a ratio, it's harder to say, because of the absurd case of no military
casualties.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
And how would you rate the Colonial Marine unit in
"Aliens"?
END QUOTE

One word. F*#&ing officers.
Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
interview on the DVD). 

James (Who owns the DVD of Aliens even though he has
no DVD player. And also wants to join the USMC because
of Aliens even though he is Australian.)


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS War what is it good for, absolutely nothing (apart f
 rom the Industrial Military complex)
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17918@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

> I can't buy into that at all, John.  Sorry.  Wars seem no more
> omnipresent today than they were in classical times.  The only
> relationships I would draw are the motivation for vengeance that
> connects the survivors to a mass slaughter, and Malthusian effects of
> reducing population pressure by reducing population.  Two forces that
> relationships that seem in opposition to each other.  Even if you
> massacre _all_ your enemy, even the children below age six, you will
> put yourself high on the rest of the world's Enemies To Destroy list. 
> There will come the day you are on the losing side in a war, and
> genocide is not a precedent that you'd like to have around.


John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 
I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because 
humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill 
that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate 
thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in 
Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost 
any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something 
separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before. 
 
The three examples above are only those examples I know of with 
the highest death toll, tens of thousands were also been killed in 
Indonesia in the 1960s and in the ruins of Yugoslavia.  

Combat lethality may have gone down, but death tolls in conflicts 
have certainly gone *way* up.

From Me:
Unfortunately it seems that as the leathility of the battlefield increases,
the likelihood of inter-state war (ie between two countries) has decreased.
So conflicts largely around the globe, present US campaign excluded, are
internal disputes. And when it is internal it is when genocide and other
nasty elimination stuff, happens the most. Especially when you have western
industrial powers that are unwilling to become involved in 'Nation Building'
and actually step in and say 'hey man, killing your own people is wrong'.
Fortunately that seems to be happening a bit more now. 

The sad thing is for Afghanistan is that  the best thing that ever happened
to them, I hope in the long run that is, was September 11. Cause there was
no way in hell anyone was going to do anything about it otherwise.

My 0.02 of course. 


Mikey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
In-Reply-To: <200204072341.DOR00933@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407180641.00a07670@mindspring.com>

At 07:41 PM 4/7/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I keep wondering about those passenger prices.  It doesn't
>make any sense.  If I fly from Washington, DC to Newark, NJ,
>it's cheaper than flying from Washington, DC to Los Angeles,
>CA.

Wrong analogy, think steamships in the days before regular air travel.

Passengers could get (relatively) cheap passage between large established 
ports, say Southampton and New York, they were serviced by large, regular 
liners.  Getting from London to Mombassa involved trips on small freighters 
with a few extra staterooms, any number of stops and delays, and being 
charged whatever the market could get away with.  Think the freighter in 
"Raiders of the Lost Ark."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:30:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:30:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <20020407234850.57151.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407181125.009efb90@mindspring.com>

At 09:48 AM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>QUOTE
>If that retinal scanner makes the crew sit through
>three or four rescans before it lets them in, or
>mistakes them for a terrorist a couple times a week,
>expect the retinal scanner to be bypassed before the
>ship comes out of its first jump.
>END QUOTE
>
>Thats what fire axes are for!
>
>HAL:Come on Dave be reasonable! Put the axe down!
>Dave, Dave! NOOOOOOOO...0).^%^$&9&##5.

"Computer, if you don't open that exit hatch this moment I shall zap 
straight off to your major data banks and reprogram you with a very large 
ax, got that?"

<silence>

"Right.  Get the ax."

<door opens>

Zaphod Beeblebrox


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
   - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
In-Reply-To: <OF0BD69FC0.8B0C14DC-ONCA256B94.00752218@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <000601c1de9d$a1a80760$2f7de40c@loki>

david.d.jaques-watson supposes, "4. Banned from 'Net access by the
Illuminati;"

Maybe the Illuminati are just preventing you from receiving GDWGames
copious daily posts filled with detailed information you are not
prepared to read.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407180641.00a07670@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOGCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Douglas Berry says
[Passengers could get (relatively) cheap passage between large established
ports, say Southampton and New York, they were serviced by large, regular
liners.  Getting from London to Mombassa involved trips on small freighters
with a few extra staterooms, any number of stops and delays, and being
charged whatever the market could get away with.  Think the freighter in
"Raiders of the Lost Ark." ] endBlock

Then let's consider a frontier. No established trade routes.
You can either take a Jump-2 ship to a destination 5 parsecs away
through intermediate planets at 8,000 cr per jump (three jumps total,
24,000 cr), or you can take my Jump-5 ship, and I charge you 20,000 cr
for the same middle passage.  It's a one off, and I can get you and
your friends there earlier.

Which makes me wonder where they come up with the idea of those
prices.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
Message-ID: <20020407.215033.-132267.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 19:15:43 -0500 John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
writes:

> FF&S2 describes two types of galleys for food preparation: 

> Again, FF&S2 discusses ship's lockers, though in less detail.  

Thanks for the info.  I do own a copy of FFS2, but tend to go blind after
awhile reading through all those tables.

Again, thanks.


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."





________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <20020408022950.69084.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Or Ha-Un batteries (Batteries made from a mixture of
Handwavium and Unobtainium)...
END QUOTE

I believe the equation is Ha+Un = TU ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hull designs, deck plans, yadda yadda
Message-ID: <200204080233.DOX00653@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

A ship is a pressure vessel, right? I'm trying to think of a 
reason that you would waste space on a "hallway".  I'm 
thinking of the deck plan for a needle configuration, and I'm 
thinking that it would be similar to a modern submarine, with 
a long tapered nose.

The deck plan of a submarine came to mind, and I don't 
remember seeing "hallways".  

Are there any deck plans of a modern submarine on the web?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>

At 11:08 AM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:

>One word. F*#&ing officers.
>Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
>officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
>enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
>interview on the DVD).

OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's 
all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window 
as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get 
Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.  In my view, those 
are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:39:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:39:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOGCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407180641.00a07670@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193614.009ffac0@mindspring.com>

At 09:38 PM 4/7/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Then let's consider a frontier. No established trade routes.
>You can either take a Jump-2 ship to a destination 5 parsecs away
>through intermediate planets at 8,000 cr per jump (three jumps total,
>24,000 cr), or you can take my Jump-5 ship, and I charge you 20,000 cr
>for the same middle passage.  It's a one off, and I can get you and
>your friends there earlier.
>
>Which makes me wonder where they come up with the idea of those
>prices.

People with very little experience in travel.

GT: Far Trader does a much better job of modelling the actual flow of 
passenger prices.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001501c1dea7$7bed0480$0b01a8c0@duck>

>      Intersecting meson beams being used as some sort of active sensor
> system.  The beams also need to intersect at a "shallow", or obtuse, angle
> with each other.  The beams in the case of Tanis system were projected
from
> two widely seperated locations the system's planetoid belt.

Actually, one beam was from a GG moon, the other from Darrian itself.

>      This adds some complexity to any deploymeny of the Star Trigger. ...
> Two ships would then be a minimum; one to release the probe and project a
> beam, the other to project the second beam.

The original (non-working Star Trigger) didn't know anything about the
meson interference project.  They thought the stellar probe itself caused
the flares.  Therefore, the original operation of the Star Trigger would
only require a single ship.

For an operational deployment, I would imagine that three ships would be
needed.  The two meson ships, and a much smaller "delivery" ship.  (Which
could possibly have to be sacrificed.)

>      IIRC, the effects aren't seen for many hours and, presumably, the
meson
> beams need to operated for that entire length of time.

This is not stated, and there is at least one hint that they don't.  I got
the impression that once the proper convergence was achieved, it was pretty
much over.  The wait was for the effects to reach you.

>      All of this makes the Star Trigger a rather finicky device.  ...

While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I don't
see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the trick
is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it.

>      This may be part of the reason why the Sword Worlds haven't been on
the
> recieving end of one yet.  The devastation that such a strike would also
> inflict on both Imperial and Confederation systems may also be part of the
> answer.

The reason the Sword Worlds never received a flare was for two reasons:
1) They are too close.  The Darrians would suffer from the EMP results as
   well as the Sword Worlders, unless they went *deep* into SW territory.
2) The Star Trigger did not become operational until after the Fifth FW.
   After the FFW, the Sword Worlds were, quite frankly, not much of a threat
   to the Darrians.

From what I can tell, after the FFW the Darrians had very few external
threats.  The only annoyance (besides the fractured Sword Worlds) seems to
be Garoo!  And no matter how annoying Garoo is, they just can't be worth
the effort and political backlash of using the Star Trigger.

> ...  If, IYTU, this mission fails or the
> reason(s) for it is/are not suspected, the Star Trigger is little more
than
> an extremely effective bogeyman.

While you can do whatever you want IYTU, in the OTU the Star Trigger does
work.

>      One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star
> Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was
> faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.

This is a great point.  It never really dawned on me, but you are
absolutely correct!  I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an
incredible accomplishment in its own right.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 21:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun Apr  7 20:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407231301.0210b390@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:49 PM 4/7/2002, knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>Okay, so I'm considering writing up my own shipbuilding rules

Cool!

>Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 'workstations' [...]
>Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
>amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
>other sundries.

Yes to both; "traditional" Traveller starship construction rules assumed 
that these, as well as other habitability needs (freshers, corridors, 
lifts, common areas, recreational facilities, etc.) are included in the 
canonical 4 dtons per person stateroom requirement.

When drawing deckplans, I generally allocate between 2 and 3 dtons for the 
actual stateroom, and use the remaining 1-2 dtons/stateroom for galley, 
storage, etc.  Remember that prior to FF&S, the Traveller starship 
construction rules were fairly loose, and fudging items like this was 
generally negligible in the long run.

I believe FF&S2 has rules for both provisions and preparation facilities.

Back in the CT days, I used to have a house rule that for extended duration 
missions (longer than 30 days), ships had to allocate 1% of the ship's 
total volume per month of provisions.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 21:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 20:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEOICGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_AAW+O329uHELj9/oA8bCnw)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Just looking at an interactive cruise ship deck plan.
http://dvo.free.fr/home.html

The standard prefab ship's cabin is 2.9 x 5 m or
2.9 x 5.5m.  This comes with two twin beds, shower,
hair dryer, tv/vcr, refrigerator w/soft drinks/minibar,
personal safe, telephone. closet, small desk, small
table, clothes drawers. The difference in the room
space is taken up by a different size desk.

Assuming a 3 meter ceiling, this is a little over 3 dTons.

Not bad, considering the amount of space.  This leaves
0.9 dTons of space for other purposes. But looking at 
the "hallways", I'm sure this excess is all used up before
you ever get to the dining rooms, etc.

If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area
of comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen,
restaurant kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.

_________________________________
There cannot be a crisis next week.  My schedule is already full.


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 21:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun Apr  7 20:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <001501c1dea7$7bed0480$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407233535.0201a0f0@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:45 PM 4/7/2002, Mike West wrote:
>[Somebody else said:]
>>One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star 
>>Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was 
>>faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.
>
>It never really dawned on me, but you are absolutely correct

Actually, it was hinted at: the Darrians are supposed to be Known Space's 
experts on stellar phenomena.  They faked the demonstration by being able 
to predict (far enough in advance) an appropriate naturally-occurring 
stellar phenomena, and then deploying ships to the site in time for the 
Star Trigger to be able to take credit for causing it.  IMHO, this is the 
rough equivalent of claiming to have an Earthquake Projector, and "proving" 
this claim by predicting a significant and unexpected earthquake well in 
advance.

I'm sure the use of Darrian military security around the site of the 
demonstration didn't hurt, either.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEOICGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20020408040109.7500F27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/07/02 at 11:35 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@comcast.net> said:

>If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
>meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area of
>comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen, restaurant
>kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.

Why 3 meters for deck to overhead?  It may be standard, but a lot of
that overhead is going to be wasted space. Two and a half meters is a
little over 8 feet, and that should be plenty. This gives you 5 - 1.5
meter squares per dton.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408000718.0284f8d0@pop.wizard.net>

James Ramsay:
>James (Who owns the DVD of Aliens even though he has
>no DVD player. And also wants to join the USMC because
>of Aliens even though he is Australian.)

We'll gladly take you, son.  You don't have to be a U.S. citizen to be a 
U.S. Marine.  I shared a barracks room for a year with a Lebanese Christian 
who was still a Lebanese citizen.  Contact the closest American consulate 
if you're serious.  Be sure to be able to do lots of pull ups from a dead 
hang and run three miles in under say 24 minutes.

And when you get off the plane to go to the Marine Corps Recruit Depot, 
just remember these two words:  "yellow footprints".  <WEG>

Much more serious advice.  Possibly the most important advice you will ever 
get in your life.  Find an MOS that gives you the training and expertise 
you want to use in your civilian career after you get it, and get that 
guaranteed in writing and signed by an officer.  Do not accept any talk no 
matter how reasonable or persuasive as a substitute.  Get the MOS you want, 
guaranteed.  In writing.  In writing.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
References: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>

Doug Berry regarding the film 'Aliens':
>OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's 
>all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window 
>as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.
>
>Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get 
>Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.  In my view, 
>those are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.

He was a brave fool, but a fool nonetheless.  But that's to be expected as 
the training, organization, and doctrine of the entire organization seemed 
to have been designed by the same.

Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units in 
Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no provision 
whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up against the 
Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win because of their 
balanced organization and integral combat and logistical support, despite 
their major technological disadvantage.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

laning says

[Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units in
Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no provision
whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up against the
Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win because of their
balanced organization and integral combat and logistical support, despite
their major technological disadvantage.] endBlock

Well then, I guess it's up to us to remedy that.

I had always wanted to do an entire orbital assault ship complete with its
marine complement (down to the last little bit).  Would need additional
ships capable of landing supplies, setting up landing fields, etc.  There's
a lot more to a successful landing than ships that can pound the planet into
rubble and a single shipload of marines.

Ever wonder why the naval units don't have pickets, reconnaissance,
minesweepers, etc?  No hospital ship, either.  I guess the Marines would
have nowhere to evac to if they're wounded.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB0F014.30539.36165A5@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020408044045.02AAD279F0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/08/02 at 01:19 AM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
said:

>On 7 Apr 2002 at 9:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

>> ObTrav:  To be controllable in full auto, I would think we would want
>> the free recoil down in the M-16 range (which is dubious, if you've ever
>> tried to hit something at 100 yards on full auto with the M-16).  I've
>> also noticed that as soon as recoil levels go over, say, a light rifle
>> in .243, people begin to notice, and when they notice, they either
>> flinch, or are apprehensive about firing, especially the first round.

>They do? Even my sisters didn't consider the SMLE to be excessive
>once  they were adults. It was a bit heavy when we were 10 or 12,
>though.  I've always thought that recoil isn't significant until
>you're dealing  with light, light .270 Winchesters, light .30-06's
>and up.

I had a problem with a 12 gauge when I was a kid. <g> I didn't even
notice there was recoil with a .22 rifle.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
Message-ID: <20020407.214938.-3991.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 23:01:11 -0500 "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
writes:
> On 04/07/02 at 11:35 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@comcast.net> said:
> 
> >If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
> >meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area of
> >comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen, 
> restaurant kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.
> 
> Why 3 meters for deck to overhead?  It may be standard, but a lot of
> that overhead is going to be wasted space. Two and a half meters is 
> alittle over 8 feet, and that should be plenty. This gives you 5 -  1.5
> meter squares per dton.
> 
> Eris

I assumed the 3 meters was deck to deck, allowing the extra space for
conduits, ducts, overhead lighting,, pipes, electrical stuff, grav plates
etc.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
Message-ID: <OF1B531251.5105373F-ONCA256B95.001A7F77@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Charles replied to Laning thus:
>>We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including 
>>ironing.  Every service a hotel provides, basically.
>
>Even hookers?

Certainly! Just the things you need to grab on to when you perform an EVA 
and the ship decides to lurch suddenly.

...or did I misunderstand your point?

;-)  ;-)  ;-)

(It really _must_ be Monday.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
In-Reply-To: <20020407.214938.-3991.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020408051123.47CD3279C0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/07/02 at 09:49 PM,  generalturokan@juno.com said:

>On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 23:01:11 -0500 "Eris Reddoch"
><erisred@telocity.com> writes:
>> On 04/07/02 at 11:35 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@comcast.net> said:
>> 
>> >If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
>> >meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area of
>> >comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen, 
>> restaurant kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.
>> 
>> Why 3 meters for deck to overhead?  It may be standard, but a lot of
>> that overhead is going to be wasted space. Two and a half meters is 
>> alittle over 8 feet, and that should be plenty. This gives you 5 -  1.5
>> meter squares per dton.
>> 
>> Eris

>I assumed the 3 meters was deck to deck, allowing the extra space for
>conduits, ducts, overhead lighting,, pipes, electrical stuff, grav
>plates etc.

I do to, but I allocate 6" to 8" for all that. I'm looking for extra
floor space to playing in. <g>  IAC, there's nothing stopping you from
tinkering with different shapes and sizes.

In one design I put lots of little sleeping chambers (ala the coffins
in some Japanese hotels) just high enough sit crosslegged on the bed
and not hit your head and just long enough to stretch out. Stack them
two or three high with a single shared fresher for a half dozen. The
passengers of these things use them for sleeping (storage under the
mat they sleep on), and the common lounge for everything else.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
Message-ID: <OF463ECBF4.84389A2C-ONCA256B95.001C6AA3@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

"n2sami" replied:
>david.d.jaques-watson supposes, "4. Banned from 'Net access by the
>Illuminati;"
>
>Maybe the I________i are just preventing you from receiving G_______
>copious _____ posts filled with ________ ___________ you are not
>prepared to ____.
>
>
>---_w_a_r__---

Well that's strange, I only appear to have received half your message...

;-)  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <OF7C3A3904.BA8B0762-ONCA256B95.001D1920@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Mike West wrote:
>>      One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star
>> Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was
>> faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.
>
>This is a great point.  It never really dawned on me, but you are
>absolutely correct!  I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an
>incredible accomplishment in its own right.

OK, I'll give a real reply to a post, now.

From memory, the Darrians know a *lot* about stars and their life cycles. 
They've studied them extensively, both just prior to, and certainly after, 
the Maghiz.

They found a star that was just about to flare, set up a fake demo, then 
claimed success once the star flared (making sure the Zhos had a ringside 
seat).

My bet is that it occurred somewhere in Foreven.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408033711.7417D27A19@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020407222519.00a4ddf0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 19:35:36 -0700, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> 
wrote:

> >One word. F*#&ing officers.
> >Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
> >officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
> >enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
> >interview on the DVD).
>
>OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's
>all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window
>and was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

That, and the first encounter was in about the worst possible 
location.  The Marines were in a confined space, surrounded by the enemy, 
most of them unarmed because of the risk of damage to the facility, and the 
second guy to buy it had all the ammo for the squad.  I don't care how good 
your CO is, you're going to take HEAVY casualties getting out of a 
clusterfuck like that.

There's also speculation/evidence in the supporting material that 
Weyland-Yutani deliberately picked a unit with a green officer (easier for 
the Company man on the spot to influence), perhaps even arranging for the 
previous Lt. to have an accident before the mission.  If you're gonna blame 
anyone, blame the suits.  :/


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>> Say what??? What's Oosik??
>
>A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
>bone from a walrus penis.  See
>http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html

For another poem about this wondrous item of nature, see BioGraffiti: A
Natural Selection by John M. Burns.  Oh, what the hell, it's short:

The Baculum

An inarticulate lucky stiff between
Paired spongy corpora casanova,
The baculum (or penis bone) of mammals
Lends firm support to a hard job.

Present in all insectivores,
Bats, rodents, carnivores,
And most primates (but not man),
It comes in many shapes.

That of the walrus (winner of a grand prix)
Is very like a warped baseball bat
Some two feet long. As one old walrus put it,
"Speak softly and carry a big stick".

Found at:

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Facility/4118/misc/biograffiti.htm
l

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:13:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:13:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407233535.0201a0f0@mail.qrc.com>
References: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020407233535.0201a0f0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <19221143037.20020408151732@greimann.de>

> Star Trigger to be able to take credit for causing it.  IMHO, this is the 
> rough equivalent of claiming to have an Earthquake Projector, and "proving" 
> this claim by predicting a significant and unexpected earthquake well in 
> advance.

Now this is an interesting concept for a future James Bond Film:

The  enemy only pretending to have a doomsday weapon, and JB searching
the  earth in vain, always thinking he is too late only to find out in
the end that he has been tricked...



-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon:

>Ever wonder why the naval units don't have pickets, reconnaissance,
>minesweepers, etc?  No hospital ship, either.  I guess the Marines would
>have nowhere to evac to if they're wounded.

I figure all the naval support units like pickets and minesweepers (mines 
in space??) are provided by the fleet that the Marine transports are 
attached to.

Field hospitals and supplies will be Marine units that are landed 
separately, without all that jump capsule stuff.  Higher echelon support 
will partly be shipboard, I suppose.  Hospital ships probably exist, for 
instance.

But where are all the mortar sections, comm sections, armorers, ammo 
transport units, company- and battalion-level support weapons like HMGs and 
air defense and antiarmor weapons that you never see the TO&Es?  And the 
S-1, S-2, S-3, and S-4 staff billets?

I could devise a few such TO&Es by simply copying some units from WW2 to 
present times and changing a detail here or there.  Seems boring, but if 
people here request it I'll try to post a few.  Prepare to see my really 
big squads with lots of automatic weapons.  :->

I have no idea what the GT material is on this, and have no intention to 
write up anything compatible with it.  The system is too incompatible with 
prior versions for me to invest that much money in them.  Although I do 
keep meaning to shop for a few of the books, if they work as source books 
for CT/MT.  'First In" seems to be very popular, for instance.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Sci Fi Books that are Ob Trav
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1791D@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

I know I am a tad late in this thread but it occurred to be the other day
that a very Ob Trav type series of books were the Amtrak Wars by Patrick
Tilley. Hi Tech underground civilisation fighting mad max esq mutated
barbarians. The descriptions of the underground settlements seem very trav,
monorails, life support levels, you name it. 

I'm re-reading them now. I liked them as a teenager and, ten years later,
they're still pretty good. 

In fact it would make a great GURPS sourcebook. Doug Berry come on down. 
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Railguns
In-Reply-To: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <3CB1AEF9.30344.7D45D12@localhost>

Hi all!

Earlier discussion about railguns (vs. coilguns) got me curious, so I 
went and found this site:

<http://www.railgun.org/>

Check it out!  They've got a lot of cool stuff -- all the formulas for the 
more gearheaded, pics of the assembly process, how they chose 
what projectile to use, etc. etc.  

-- Rachel 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was
inexperienced, that's all.  All he knew was the book,
and suddenly the book went out the window 
as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and
went back to get Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to
slow the enemy down.  In my view, those are the kind
of things that posthumous decorations are given out
for.
END QUOTE

I agree that he did the right thing at the end but he
was incredibly incompetent in the first encounter with
the aliens. I suspect he was chosen for the mission
because of his inexperiance, and or compliance to the
company. After all the actual grunts where a seasoned
combat hardened bunch of veterens, who I think where
probably the equivalent to the marine force recon. Why
would someone who has only ever had one actual mission
be put in charge of such a group? And he froze in a
combat situation endangering the lives of his men! And
the aliens wheren't that tough, notice how the people
who had guns survived (Drake was killed by friendly
fire). All the people with wimpy 'flame units' died.
It was a sever tactical error to send troops into an
area with no effective means of fighting. And James
Cameron was inspired by his brothers time in vietnam.
However I still like Gorman for his actions at the end
of the film.

ObTrav: Do the average grunts still bitch about thier
officers? Has officer - enlisted sophont relationship
improved or got worse?

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408040658.0326ba80@pop.wizard.net>

James Ramsay regarding Colonial Marines in the film 'Aliens':
>company. After all the actual grunts where a seasoned
>combat hardened bunch of veterens, who I think where
>probably the equivalent to the marine force recon.

No, not even close to Force Recon.  Maybe more like draftee Marines early 
in WW2 minus the commitment to a cause, and with no experience.  If I'm in 
a generous mood.  I'll take an equal number of former Force Recon who 
haven't worn a uniform in twenty years or more against that useless bunch 
of physically fit young men and women any time.

Perhaps they were supposed to be combat veterans, but most of them only 
acted like the Hollywood director's idea of that.  And their organization 
and doctrine didn't reflect any type of combat experience.  In short, they 
struck me as a bunch of high school football jocks who think they're, um 
kings of the world based on zero available evidence, and therefore 
qualified to fight a war.

After the first 'Alien' movie, abandon all notions of realism.

My ObTrav is to be very careful running military units in Traveller 
campaigns, it isn't easy being believable if you have players with more 
direct military knowledge than the referee.  Not that those players will 
want complete realism either.  They'll want fun and adventure.  But they 
still need to keep their belief suspenders from snapping.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 02:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon Apr  8 01:22:02 2002
Subject: TOE was RE: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEOKEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I did a TOE for a TL13 Terran Marine Unit in MT. Most of the vehicles are on
my site though I have never posted the TOE itself. I gave it recon, kitchen,
medivac, mobile hospital etc. My proudest achievement was designing (in MT)
a mobile Grav Field Kitchen. I still have the organisation lying around
somewhere.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 03:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr  8 02:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408040658.0326ba80@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <004b01c1dedd$23466840$2f9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Perhaps they were supposed to be combat veterans, but most of them only
> acted like the Hollywood director's idea of that.  And their organization
> and doctrine didn't reflect any type of combat experience.  In short, they
> struck me as a bunch of high school football jocks who think they're, um
> kings of the world based on zero available evidence, and therefore
> qualified to fight a war.
>

They were, I think, supposed to be experienced, but only at "correcting"
colonists who were behaving in naughty ways. (mainly by showing up and
acting like badasses). Dozens of soft missions made them complacent and
overconfident.

But yeah, the unit suffered from Hollywooditis. Who issues a support weapon
you have to use standing up?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 03:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr  8 02:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005c01c1dedd$c64fecf0$2f9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> ObTrav: Do the average grunts still bitch about thier
> officers? Has officer - enlisted sophont relationship
> improved or got worse?
>
>
My father told me last night (from his time in the Air Force).. he and a
bunch of other enlisteds were hurrying somewhere in a corridor. They spied
an officer at the last second, and two of them saluted. The officer shouted
at them. So on the way back they ALL saluted, to keep the mean officer
happy. So he shouted at them some more "FOR SALUTING IN A CORRIDOR!!!!!"

They went away cursing both officers and corridors, not very much the wiser.

Another time he spied someone in an unfamiliar dress uniform. Could have
been Russian for all he knew, but he saluted to be on the safe side. The
Canadian corporal smiled wryly and went on his way....


From shadow@krypton.scn.rain.com  Mon Apr  8 03:07:42 2002
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X-Original-Article-From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] helium-3
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Date: Mon Apr  8 08:08:13 2002
X-Original-Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 23:29:02 PST

In mail you write:

> I keep looking at the p-H3 reaction, and although it has a 
> high hurdle for starting, it yields more energy per unit 
> fuel, and is aneutronic.
>
> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.
>
> It looks like you could build a much smaller H3 fusion 
> reactor, not just from the standpoint of overall yield per 
> unit fuel, but also because no energy would be wasted 
> accelerating neutrons (70% of the D-T cycle is neutron 
> energy), and there would be no need to have neutron 
> shielding.  I can almost see the argument that the only way 
> to get a "tabletop" fusion reactor would be to run it on H3.

Whoa!

H3 is *tritium*. He3 is Helium-3.

*Big* difference.

> Looking for a handwave for H3 reactors...

It's gonna be *expensive*. Because the fuel is rare and a *lot* harder
to store than liquid hydrogen.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:09:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:09:34 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <20020403012608.08423dc6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20407.233050.7S9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
>> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
>> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.
>
> Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
> surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).

Yeah, it merely requires processing *tonnes* of regolith for *grams* of
He3.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:10:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:10:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Sleeping In Starports, without Jimmy Hoffa
In-Reply-To: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20408.001328.7c5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the 
> price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial 
> cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very 
> much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be 
> possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for 
> mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the 
> fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator 
> runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to 
> ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of 
> the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.  The 
> same device could also be used in recycling to return 
> anything to its component atoms.

Yep.

> So, is that how the recycler works on the ship?  Is there 
> some plasma separator in there, and it's all reduced to 
> whatever the ship's environmental controls are interested 
> in?  Dump the other ions into space?

No, that's a bit *too* thorough. It takes a lot of effort to build
complex organics. You wouldn't run them thru that sort of system.
*Inorganic* waste, maybe.

Unless you've got nanotech, or similar "magic" level tech, you want to
leave organic molecules intact unless you've got a *good* reason to
break them down that far.

Life-support level air and water recycling is done easily without going
*that* far.

> Nice place for the Jimmy Hoffas of the future...

The excess carbon in the logs will require a *lot* of explanation.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20408.003625.1N7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The esteemed Leonard Erickson wrote, including quotes from Texas Redshift:
>> > For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't 
> get
>> > in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
>> > send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
>> > do the ship much good, however.
>>
>>Also, it can't be *too* hard. there will be lots of situations when the
>>crew wants to get inside *fast*, or they may be a bit "damaged" or
>>"incapacitated". Or both.
>>
>>Entry should be merely difficult enough to dissaude *amatuers*. Pros
>>will get in anyway, so the extra efforts isn't really justifiable in
>>terms of cost/benefit.
> I agree but only a little bit.  The penalty when you do lose a ship (and 
> probably some lives at the same time) is very large.  Typically hundreds of 
> millions.  Yes, it is a touchstone of security that no security system is 
> perfect, and you shouldn't spend excess effort on attempting to perfect 
> your security beyond a point that is appropriate to your degree of risk and 
> the cost if security fails.  Even one fat trader or passenger liner lost is 
> going to drive everyone's insurance rates through the roof and may risk 
> putting the insurer financially on the ropes.

Not necessarily.

One out of how many? That's the key there.

> If nobody else does, then 
> insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security 
> measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time 
> and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.

You are considering *installation* costs. I'm talking about the costs
in time wasted due to "overly stringent" security getting in the way.

Oil tankers are expensive too. So are modern freighters. And *safety*
gear on them that "gets in the way" is routinely bypassed by crews,
never mind "security" gear.

> Oh, I'm not sure that the phrase "kill switches" was supposed to mean 
> mantrap defenses.  I think it may have meant disabling critical ship's 
> systems.  Perhaps a triphammer smashes the zuchai crystals.  <G>

I didn't think it did. I know what a kill switch is. I brought up
lethal defenses because they have been discussed in the past, and would
have popped up any minute anyway.

And yes, the TU isn't the US. Some places are less forgiving, some are
more. Which laws apply to a ship in port could get very important.

>>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
>>someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
>>attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...

> I see we've met some of the same player characters.  :->

Alas, I understand that there have actually been a couple of real world
cases of this already. And it's been a standard dodge in fiction for
*at least* 50 years.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:13:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:13:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204030529.g335TAO02739@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard writes:

> But, as you say in a later post, the energy of forces might seem
> stronger under inertial suppression. Well, is that really the
> case? A change in gravity should produce no difference, as
> masses fall at the same speed, all other things being equal.
> If I drop a feather in a vacuum, and a drop a rock in a
> vacuum, they should both fall at the same speed. So I don't
> think that changing inertia should effect how an object behaves
> with respect to the gravitational force. What about the weak,
> strong, and EM forces?

Actually, consider that rock and feather in a vacuum *and* with zero
inertia. Let go and they undergo "infinite" acceleration as gravity
takes effect, and zero time later infinite *deceleration* as they hit
the bottom of the tube.

>> Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
>> things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects. 
>
> In what way?

Chemical reaction rates depend strongly on the mass of the atoms. Atoms
with similar properties (same column in the periodic table) react at
rates that are strongly connected with their mass differences. 

So the rates might increase dramaticly.

Molecular collisions in air would result in the molecules stopping,
rather than rebounding. So the opposing portions of their vectors would
cancel out. Add in the effects of gravity, and all the air molecules
would be in a thin layer near the floor. 

Thermal effects on the gases get weird too.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

>> But assuming that you can live thru the process, then it'd be best to
>> ignore all the effects at the sub-molar level (ie molecular and lower).
>
> Can't do this.

Then you're dead. Too many of the forces at those levels *do* depend on
inertia. Lowering inertia raises the *effective* force.

As an example, the reason that water doesn't boil at around -150 F is
because of Van der waals forces. Compare the boiling points of hydrogen
oxide, hydrogen sulfide, and so on down that column in the periodic
table. All of them *but* H2O have very low boiling points. 

Lowering the inertia of the molecules will have the effect of adding
similar forces. Which will change the physical and chemical properties
of compounds *drastically*. 
  
>> This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
>> work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
>> viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.
>
> Except that your heart would also be of a lower apparent mass.

What's *that* got to do with it? The pumping forces are due to
contraction of the muscle fibers. The mass of the heart has little
relevance there. The only effect it'd have (to the first order, anyway)
is making it *easier* to contract. 

> Instead of thinking of a normal pool ball hitting a styrofoam ball,
> think of one styrofoam ball hitting another one. On the molecular
> scale, I'm guessing that this would be more akin to what would be
> happening. -Jim

Nope. Because you lose the rebound. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:15:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:15:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215009.0283aec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20408.010158.0K9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson, in replying to JimV said:
>
>>BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
>>higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
>>artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
>>playing "grav pong" with hijackers.
> Sounds like we see it the same way.  Although +6 gees to -6 gees in less 
> than one second should be sufficient grav pong to deal with most hijackers.
>
> I've always wondered at the canonical lack of ships capable of 
> accelerations far greater than 6 gees.  We subject astronauts and fighter 
> pilots to accelerations between 4 and 6 gees, so you'd think that high 
> performance military aircraft would be capable of accelerating many gees 
> faster than their internal grav compensation can handle.  They accelerate 
> at 10 gees, have 6 gees of that compensated, and a "felt acceleration" of 4 
> gees.

Actually, fighter pilots are limited by the fact that they *have* to
experience gees in a "head to feet" direction. If you can take the
acceleration "flat on your back", the limt is between 15 and 18 gees.
That's the point at which you can't excercise fine muscle control.

3 gees can be handled "indefinitely" (hours, at least). 

This is only practical for "fighter" type ships. And the power & fuel
consumption is going to be high. But due to the fact that turns have to
be made by changing the direction the "mainn drive" points, they'll
*always* be taking all but a tiny fraction of the accel in the same
direction.

It only takes a fraction of a g to flip a ship end for end in space.
It's changing the direction it is *traveling* that takes the main
drive. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:16:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <F149PnvEZZ91Lhdms4Q000022be@hotmail.com>

From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>

     "Actually, one beam was from a GG moon, the other from Darrian itself."


Mr. West,

     You are correct, sir.  My apologies for "bum doping" the List.

     "The original (non-working Star Trigger) didn't know anything about the 
meson interference project.  They thought the stellar probe itself caused 
the flares.  Therefore, the original operation of the Star Trigger would 
only require a single ship."

     Yes, a single ship that would deliver a non-working device.

     "This is not stated, and there is at least one hint that they don't.  I 
got the impression that once the proper convergence was achieved, it was 
pretty much over.  The wait was for the effects to reach you."

     Perhaps the beams needn't be held on location for hours, but other 
portions of the weapon do require time.  How much time does it take for the 
probe to release enough tungsten into the star for the Trigger to work?  How 
far off must the projector vessels be in order to escape?Assuming a 
seperation between Darrian and Tanis of 1 AU, it would take a meson beam ~8 
minutes to cover that distance.  Put the second projector on a GG moon at a 
Jupiter distance and the time jumps to ~45 minutes.  Now throw in comm times 
between vessels and aiming attempts, you'll need both to ensure you get the 
proper angle of interference.
     Even parking both projector vessels at the star's 100D limit, so they 
can escape, means that beam travel distance, comm lag, and subsequent aiming 
attempts are all going to take time.  Maybe not hours, but certainly not 
minutes.

     "While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I 
don't see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the 
trick is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it."

     Yes, seeding the star with enough tungsten and aiming correctly will 
take time.  Perhaps the Darrians use multiple probes to increase their 
chances?

     "The reason the Sword Worlds never received a flare was for two 
reasons: 1) They are too close..."

     Yes, the "collateral" damage to both Darrian and Imperial space I 
mentioned.

     "2) The Star Trigger did not become operational until after the Fifth 
FW.  After the FFW, the Sword Worlds were, quite frankly, not much of a 
threat to the Darrians."

     You missed the point of the fake Star Trigger and the real story behind 
the faked demostration.  Everyone, INCLUDING THE DARRIANS, thought it 
worked!  It had to be this way so that Zho mind readers would verify it's 
both existence and operability.  So, for deterrent purposes, the Star 
Trigger, whether working or not, was deployed, IIRC, immediately after the 
2nd FW.  Plenty of time for a Confederacy tussling with the Sword Worlds 
over the Entropic Cluster to think about using it.  Remember, they thought 
it worked!
     The "real" reason the Star Trigger wasn't used during all those 
centuries is that weapons of mass destruction aren't, except in very rare 
cases, used to ensure you'll WIN a war.  They're used to ensure that the 
other fellow LOSES the war.  This is a important distinction.  The Star 
Trigger and MAD, on which it is based, is a suicide pact; "You push us too 
far and we'll make sure we all die, you included."
     The Trigger can be used defensively rather easily, by employing it you 
ensure that the power about to conquer you is left with nothing worth 
conquering.  Using the Trigger offensively, like nukes, is far tougher.  
Sure we can all spin out scenario after scenario in which nukes win the day, 
but they would all depend on very specific, out of the ordinary, 
prerequisites.

     "While you can do whatever you want IYTU, in the OTU the Star Trigger 
does work."

     Yes, as you pointed out it works after the 5th FW.  However, it was 
deployed for far longer than that.

     "I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an incredible 
accomplishment in its own right."

     Keeping the secret that the Trigger demonstration was a fake was the 
really incrediable accomplishment.  The fakers had to fool both the 
observers from the other powers AND their own people utterly and completely. 
  Why didn't the secret never leak out?  Mass suicide among the project 
staff over "creating" so horrible a weapon?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:17:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:17:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 0:22, laning wrote:

> Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units
> in Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no
> provision whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up
> against the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win
> because of their balanced organization and integral combat and
> logistical support, despite their major technological disadvantage.

I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were 
based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped 
their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its 
subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its 
companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it 
belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles, 
field ovens, etc.

I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of 
the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be 
used to supply and support its troops.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:18:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:18:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <20020408044045.02AAD279F0@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB0F014.30539.36165A5@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB236E1.7282.680449@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 23:40, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I had a problem with a 12 gauge when I was a kid. <g> I didn't even
> notice there was recoil with a .22 rifle.

I thought 12 gauges were fine - they push rather than kick and come 
with nice rubber butt pads. Not like No.1 Lee-Enfields with their solid 
brass butt plate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:19:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:19:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408075125.009ec5e0@mindspring.com>

At 04:58 PM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>ObTrav: Do the average grunts still bitch about thier
>officers? Has officer - enlisted sophont relationship
>improved or got worse?

Soldiers still bitch about everything.  It is their one right.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:20:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:20:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>

At 02:28 AM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>John Kwon:
>
>>Ever wonder why the naval units don't have pickets, reconnaissance,
>>minesweepers, etc?  No hospital ship, either.  I guess the Marines would
>>have nowhere to evac to if they're wounded.
>
>I figure all the naval support units like pickets and minesweepers (mines 
>in space??) are provided by the fleet that the Marine transports are 
>attached to.
>
>Field hospitals and supplies will be Marine units that are landed 
>separately, without all that jump capsule stuff.  Higher echelon support 
>will partly be shipboard, I suppose.  Hospital ships probably exist, for 
>instance.
>
>But where are all the mortar sections, comm sections, armorers, ammo 
>transport units, company- and battalion-level support weapons like HMGs 
>and air defense and antiarmor weapons that you never see the TO&Es?  And 
>the S-1, S-2, S-3, and S-4 staff billets?
>
>I could devise a few such TO&Es by simply copying some units from WW2 to 
>present times and changing a detail here or there.  Seems boring, but if 
>people here request it I'll try to post a few.  Prepare to see my really 
>big squads with lots of automatic weapons.  :->
>
>I have no idea what the GT material is on this, and have no intention to 
>write up anything compatible with it.  The system is too incompatible with 
>prior versions for me to invest that much money in them.  Although I do 
>keep meaning to shop for a few of the books, if they work as source books 
>for CT/MT.  'First In" seems to be very popular, for instance.

GT Ground Forces has complete brigade and regiment TO&Es for the Unified 
Armies of the Imperium and the Imperial Marine Force.  I spent most of my 
time developing the support units, and much of the Operations chapter is 
dedicated to issues of supply and support.

The Standard Issue chapter has the 30,000dton Keith-class brigade 
transport, along with its six Nakerth-class landers.. 1,200 tons each, 
carrying a full combat battalion to a world's surface. There is also the 
Caen-class dropship, the standard 1,200 transport for the Imperial Marines.

Among the vehicles included are a recovery sled, a heavy G-Carrier, and an 
engineering sled.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Sleeping In Starports, without Jimmy Hoffa
Message-ID: <200204081516.DPW00037@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>
>The excess carbon in the logs will require a *lot* of 
>explanation.
>

I used to play in a T campaign where a silicon-based alien 
species referred to us as "carbon-units".  The referee also
used to joke that the aliens knew they hit a ship with
people in it, because they used spectography to look for 
the carbon line when your ship was vaporized.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <20407.233050.7S9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204081031040.23520-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
> > surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).
> 
> Yeah, it merely requires processing *tonnes* of regolith for *grams* of
> He3.

Transhuman Space also says that ratio is good enough.
And it says you can get He3 more easily from gas giants.  In that future
history, the US put a colony in Saturn's orbit solely for that purpose.
Since most Traveller starships are capable of scooping gas giants anyway,
why not go by that route?

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam Draper)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20020408033711.7417D27A19@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGMEANCFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>

I was reading an article recently by a US Army surgeon who served in Vietnam
(Martin Fackler).  He found that the 7.62x39 would penetrate 29 inches of
ballistic gelatin, the 5.56x45 (M193) penetrates 13+ inches, and the 7.62x51
penetrates 25 inches (all FMJ).  Although the 7.62x39 had the deepest
penetration, it produced the least devestating wound.  The bullet
penetrated, turned around, and then exited.  He says, from his experience in
Vietnam, the "average uncomplicated thigh wound was about what one would
expect from a low-powered handgun: a small, punctate entrance and exit wound
with minimal intervening muscle disruption."  The US 7.62x51 produced an
uncomplicated wound profile like the 7.26x39.  The 5.56 produced a pretty
devestating wound, because the bullet would, as it yawed, split in half,
with the base fragmenting into a number of smaller projectiles.  This
reduced penetration, but made a big hole (up to 5" in diameter).  Velocity
had to be at least 2700 fps for the bullet to fragment (muzzle velocity with
a M16 is like 3200+), and no fragmentation took place until the bullet had
penetrated 4-5" of tissue.

Interestingly, German 7.62x51 bullets have a thinner jacket, and that round
would fragment like the 5.56.

I have read before that 5.56 soft points have pathetic penetration in
tissue, but 308 caliber soft points certainly get good penetration and
produce enormous wounds.  Bullet construction seems to be critical in
producing wounds; that seems to be largely ignored in Traveller other than
HE and DS rounds.

I wonder, does the Imperium follow the Geneva convention regarding FMJ
rounds?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 10:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 09:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS War what is it good for, absolutely nothing (apart f rom the Industrial Military complex)
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17918@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>; from Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:11:41AM +1000
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17918@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020408100937.B1314@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:11:41AM +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
>
> Especially when you have western industrial powers that are
> unwilling to become involved in 'Nation Building' and actually step
> in and say 'hey man, killing your own people is wrong'.

The last time nations took a wholesale interest in one another's
affairs, Europe was nearly destroyed in the wars of religion.  The
state system evolved in order to prevent that kind of mass death and
destruction.  The problem now is that states are so large: if the
Grand Duchy of Potlork--consisting of the Grand Duke, his staff,
10,000 citizens and a herd of cattle--goes on a genocidal rampage, its
fairly easy to escape to neighbouring Ruritania.  If the EU does, it's
somewhat more complicated, should one live in, e.g., Arras.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their
pockets for new vocabulary.                     --James D. Nicoll

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 10:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Mon Apr  8 09:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] E-mail still down -- Help Needed
Message-ID: <l03010d0bb8d770ec2013@[206.224.92.67]>

First, my GDWGames@aol.com account is still in the doldrums -- I have a new
computer (well, new to me -- it is an order of magnitude advance over my
old one, but still a used machine) through the courtesy of Geoff MacDonald,
who gave me a very good deal. I'm still struggling with modem issues,
however, so rejuvenatation of the old address will take a while.

A second point:

Will anyone who owns one of the following old GDW Boardgames please get in
touch with me.

	1941
	1942!
	Battle of Agincourt 1415 AD
	Battle of Lobositz
	Battle of Prague
	Battle of Raphia 217 BC

I'll explain in e-mail.



Loren Wiseman
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/
     SJ Games
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 10:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 09:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204081031040.23520-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018283921.6838.ajackson@ping>

Gregory Carl Kettler writes:
> On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > > Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
> > > surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).
> > 
> > Yeah, it merely requires processing *tonnes* of regolith for *grams* of
> > He3.
> 
> Transhuman Space also says that ratio is good enough.

Mostly because TS uses realistic fuel requirements for fusion.  3He is still
200 million dollars per ton in TS.  Of course, TS doesn't have contragravity
and thruster plates, which means getting stuff out of saturn is a challenge.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 11:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 10:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe@aol.com>

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In a message dated 08/04/02 03:39:21 GMT Daylight Time, 
gridlore@mindspring.com writes:


> >One word. F*#&ing officers.
> >Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
> >officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
> >enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
> >interview on the DVD).
> 
> OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's 
> all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window 
> as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.
> 
> Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get 
> Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.  In my view, those 
> 
> are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.
> 

What about the Sergeant (Apone?) - I thought the role of an NCO was to stop 
the officers messing everything up? Clearly he has more experience than 
Gorman and yet he's quite happy to lead his troops into an unknown 
environment against an unknown force AND he gives all the ammo to one man.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 08/04/02 03:39:21 GMT Daylight Time, gridlore@mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;One word. F*#&amp;ing officers.<BR>
&gt;Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the<BR>
&gt;officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to<BR>
&gt;enter direct combat (It says so in the directors<BR>
&gt;interview on the DVD).<BR>
<BR>
OK, that's not what I got at *all*&nbsp; Gorman was inexperienced, that's <BR>
all.&nbsp; All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window <BR>
as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.<BR>
<BR>
Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get <BR>
Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.&nbsp; In my view, those <BR>
are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
What about the Sergeant (Apone?) - I thought the role of an NCO was to stop the officers messing everything up? Clearly he has more experience than Gorman and yet he's quite happy to lead his troops into an unknown environment against an unknown force AND he gives all the ammo to one man.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 11:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 10:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <20408.003625.1N7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408123225.02823ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Leonard Erickson discusses the antihijacker issue:
> > If nobody else does, then
> > insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security
> > measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time
> > and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.
>
>You are considering *installation* costs. I'm talking about the costs
>in time wasted due to "overly stringent" security getting in the way.
>
>Oil tankers are expensive too. So are modern freighters. And *safety*
>gear on them that "gets in the way" is routinely bypassed by crews,
>never mind "security" gear.

I wholeheartedly agree that personnel will tend to ignore things that are 
inconvenient.  That's partly why insurers and lenders and regulators at 
starports will be the ones insisting on enforcement through certifications 
and inspections.  They won't expect ship crews to take care of it on their own.

I think the analogy with ocean-going vessels in our own world is useful, 
but not a complete analogy.  I think tankers and freighters mostly rely for 
their safety on the fact that any hijacker has an extremely difficult time 
fencing the rather unique and obvious stolen property.  As well as a 
communication network that is practically instantaneous around the globe 
and military patrols being able to reach the vessel by aircraft at speeds 
at least an order of magnitude faster than the vessel can travel.


> > Oh, I'm not sure that the phrase "kill switches" was supposed to mean
> > mantrap defenses.  I think it may have meant disabling critical ship's
> > systems.  Perhaps a triphammer smashes the zuchai crystals.  <G>
>
>I didn't think it did. I know what a kill switch is. I brought up
>lethal defenses because they have been discussed in the past, and would
>have popped up any minute anyway.
>
>And yes, the TU isn't the US. Some places are less forgiving, some are
>more. Which laws apply to a ship in port could get very important.
>
> >>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
> >>someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
> >>attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...
>
> > I see we've met some of the same player characters.  :->
>
>Alas, I understand that there have actually been a couple of real world
>cases of this already. And it's been a standard dodge in fiction for
>*at least* 50 years.

Sounds like our overall positions are not that far apart after all.  My 
vision of antihijacking measures is moderated and mitigated by all the 
things you've pointed out.  I do believe that captain and crew should have 
very quick access in case of emergency, and that daily activities should be 
only slightly impacted or not impacted at all, if possible.  Overrides 
should be available in multiple ways.  If this leaves loopholes that can be 
exploited by a determined, knowledgable, and clever foe then that risk is 
recompensed by all the honest passengers and crew who are saved from being 
victims of dangerously rigid security systems.  But, within those 
restrictions, a few hundred years of big business should be able to work 
out a lot of safeguards that are very effective.  Starship owners willing 
to seek the right vendors, sign enough waivers, or maybe go outside the 
astrographical borders under the watchful eyes of various regulators to set 
up their security will still be able to do perhaps ill-advised things.  And 
then you have your crews who will disable or circumvent safeguards despite 
all the doublechecks  and safety inspections.  I imagine skilled hijackers 
will look for telltales of such ships, avoid the dangerous ones and seek 
the easier marks.

I cannot honestly say that any group of players I'm familiar with has shown 
the planning, forethought, and teamwork necessary to get away with 
hijacking a Traveller ship using what I consider standard antihijacking 
measures and more than a dozen parsecs inside Imperial borders.  I can also 
honestly say that I can envision many ways in which a group of players 
_could_ succeed if only they didn't insist on being such "cowboys".

So, IMTU hijacking can and does happen, particularly near or outside the 
borders of the major interstellar polities.  But players would be foolish 
to try it themselves.  And the standard shipboard safeguards are designed 
to keep crews composed of people like my players from getting themselves or 
others inadvertently killed.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Who wants an atom laser?
Message-ID: <DAV60c7vtdFq7ImxUkM000015b1@hotmail.com>

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/20mar_newmatter.htm

And how useful would one be in space combat?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:14:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:14:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Who wants an atom laser?
In-Reply-To: <DAV60c7vtdFq7ImxUkM000015b1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018289637.113.ajackson@ping>

Texas Redshift writes:
> http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/20mar_newmatter.htm
> 
> And how useful would one be in space combat?

Since they require working at the temperature of a bose-einstein condensate,
not very; the beam would move incredibly slowly, and have a very low energy
content.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGMEANCFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408033711.7417D27A19@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408135946.02824dd0@pop.wizard.net>

At 09:47 AM 4/8/02 -0600, you wrote:
>I was reading an article recently by a US Army surgeon who served in Vietnam
>(Martin Fackler).  He found that the 7.62x39 would penetrate 29 inches of
>ballistic gelatin, the 5.56x45 (M193) penetrates 13+ inches, and the 7.62x51
>penetrates 25 inches (all FMJ).  Although the 7.62x39 had the deepest
>penetration, it produced the least devestating wound.  The bullet
>penetrated, turned around, and then exited.  He says, from his experience in
>Vietnam, the "average uncomplicated thigh wound was about what one would
>expect from a low-powered handgun: a small, punctate entrance and exit wound
>with minimal intervening muscle disruption."  The US 7.62x51 produced an
>uncomplicated wound profile like the 7.26x39.  The 5.56 produced a pretty
>devestating wound, because the bullet would, as it yawed, split in half,
>with the base fragmenting into a number of smaller projectiles.  This
>reduced penetration, but made a big hole (up to 5" in diameter).  Velocity
>had to be at least 2700 fps for the bullet to fragment (muzzle velocity with
>a M16 is like 3200+), and no fragmentation took place until the bullet had
>penetrated 4-5" of tissue.

With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to 
the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300 
feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the 
government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting.

I did all my reading on this topic over a dozen years ago, but I seem to 
recall that there has been plenty of reliable material published that 
debunked the notion of the magical differences causing the 5.56 to tumble, 
etc. when no other bullets were able to achieve the same effect.  I said 
that very poorly.  What I mean is that government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam 
had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other 
assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.  Including poorer 
accuracy.  When combat took place at very limited range, this was less of a 
problem.  Plus the fact that most combatants on either side had a tendency 
to cease fighting when they received more than a superficial wound, unless 
they were heroes or tactical circumstances were desperate.  Sort of 
analagous to playing touch football instead of normal football.  You don't 
have to tackle someone to bring them down, just touch them with both hands 
and they're required to stop running and the play is over.  Contrary to the 
popular image, lots of infantry combat in Viet Nam took place at pretty 
long range.  A sort of contest of wimps, I guess, between the fairly 
lightweight and unstable 5.56 and the more substantial but lower speed 7.62x39.

Let us please leave as a separate thread the discussion of whether aimed 
rifle fire is any different in battlefield effectiveness from unaimed 
fire.  Except to note that _if_ you are an unmodified adherent of the 
theory popular among many experts that there is no difference, then by 
corollary it shouldn't matter whether the rifle used is accurate or 
not.  Continuing to look at that corollary, if two different rifles have 
the same range, inflict equivalent damage on the human body at that range, 
and penetrate cover and concealment equally, then accuracy won't make a 
significant difference in the vast majority of fights at long range.

Please let us not debate the validity of that theory (again) here.  And 
certainly don't ask _me_ to defend that theory, regardless of how many 
people with more knowledge than I have may argue convincingly in its 
favor.  But if you wish to comment on the corollaries I propose above, then 
I think that is virgin territory for us to debate.

>Interestingly, German 7.62x51 bullets have a thinner jacket, and that round
>would fragment like the 5.56.
>
>I have read before that 5.56 soft points have pathetic penetration in
>tissue, but 308 caliber soft points certainly get good penetration and
>produce enormous wounds.  Bullet construction seems to be critical in
>producing wounds; that seems to be largely ignored in Traveller other than
>HE and DS rounds.
>
>I wonder, does the Imperium follow the Geneva convention regarding FMJ
>rounds?

This last part has put your finger on a very important point.  I'm quite 
sure the Geneva Conventions are long since defunct in Milieu 0 and onward, 
although that's just my ever-humble opinion.  ;->  And yes, projectile 
design has a _lot_ to do with ballistics, at least when talking about 
infantry or hunting weapons.

Recently, Tod Glenn seems to have made the most articulate explanations on 
the TML for why gauss weapons will be the infantry weapons of choice at 
tech levels that permit them.  The explanations include convincing reasons 
for typical gauss ammo to both penetrate armor and damage human bodies very 
well without needing a variety of fiendish projectile designs to achieve 
the intended effect.  NB that the projectile needs to be travelling at a 
velocity greater than 1,450 meters per second in order to do all 
this.  Sorry, Tod, to single you out by name but you have indeed been the 
most articulate, informative, and convincing poster on that thread and I 
believe in giving credit where it is due.  :->

Canonical gauss weapons get muzzle velocities well in excess of 1,450 m/s, 
but I am too lazy at the moment to look up the information required to 
calculate how far they will travel down range before falling below that 
important velocity.  But you don't have to be Isaac Newton to realize it's 
plenty far enough to be a useful military longarm.  And that even a long, 
skinny piece of iron travelling at say 800 m/s is something you'd rather 
have not hit you.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408144051.02823ba0@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert Boleyn responds to me on the continuing thread:
>On 8 Apr 2002 at 0:22, laning wrote:
>
> > Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units
> > in Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no
> > provision whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up
> > against the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win
> > because of their balanced organization and integral combat and
> > logistical support, despite their major technological disadvantage.
>
>I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were
>based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped
>their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its
>subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its
>companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it
>belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles,
>field ovens, etc.

The missing TO&E elements that I'm most troubled by are indirect fire 
support weapons and special weapons.  No Auto RAM grenade launchers, no 
light mortars, no heavy machine guns, no antiarmor weapons.  That sort of 
thing.  We can always at least pretend that things like field ovens are 
held by dedicated support units that are outside the battalion or regiment 
level.  I'm also troubled by the lack of staff officers and troops.  There 
is no Logistics, Intelligence, or Operations section in any of the 
battalions or regiments I can recall.  Even the Soviets and the Chinese 
haven't simplified so much that there is no Logistics staff at regimental 
level.  But the biggest problem for me is the lack of supporting arms that 
you'd expect from TL 12 and TL 14 or 15 organizations.


>I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
>the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
>used to supply and support its troops.

Yeah, it's unclear to me exactly what mission the Milieu 1100 Imperial army 
and marines are tailored to.  Fully mobilized general warfare against 
opponents like the Outworld Coalition?  Internal control and 
policing?  Border defense against pocket empires and pirates?  And just how 
much orbital supremacy do they count on achieving and maintaining?  Perhaps 
all they expect from their regiments is for them to be glorified armed 
reconnaissance sufficient to get ortillery observers to bring accurate fire 
onto important targets and then accept the surrender of local opposition 
commanders.  I am comfortable with that sort of scenario happening a lot, 
but certainly not all, of the time.  But even so, the regiments would be 
much better off as true combined arms teams, not just a bunch of mobile 
riflemen.

I'm something of a so-called grognard gamer at this point, and maybe my 
desire for more detailed TO&Es is the incipient miniatures player in me.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 13:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 12:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
 <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>

Doug Berry says:

>GT Ground Forces has complete brigade and regiment TO&Es for the Unified 
>Armies of the Imperium and the Imperial Marine Force.  I spent most of my 
>time developing the support units, and much of the Operations chapter is 
>dedicated to issues of supply and support.
>
>The Standard Issue chapter has the 30,000dton Keith-class brigade 
>transport, along with its six Nakerth-class landers.. 1,200 tons each, 
>carrying a full combat battalion to a world's surface. There is also the 
>Caen-class dropship, the standard 1,200 transport for the Imperial Marines.
>
>Among the vehicles included are a recovery sled, a heavy G-Carrier, and an 
>engineering sled.

It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and 
equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really 
good work being done there.

The Keith-class was named in honor?  Well done.  :->

If I were the Imperium, I wouldn't bother to build standard troop 
transports that carry less than a complete battalion.  Brigades or 
divisions would have logistical elements that are more forward on the 
battlefield, and most of the logistical tail on the ground would be at 
corps level or higher.  It sounds like the Keith class represents pretty 
similar thinking.  :->

I think there is a very important, but still subsidiary, role for ships 
that transport and land Imperial Marine companies and it sounds like you 
think the same way.  You're probably aware that the US considers the Marine 
battalion to be the standard chunk to embark and deploy, plus full 
supporting elements.  But there are a lot of ways in which they are poor 
analogues for Imperial Marines.

Your grav sleds make a lot of sense.  I bet you have ambulance sleds, aid 
station sleds, and field kitchen sleds too?

Finally, I've been meaning for a long time to compliment you on the sig 
about embracing fascism because the uniforms look cool.  Nice.
:->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 13:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 12:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:04:22PM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net> <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020408130651.A1686@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:04:22PM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and 
> equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really 
> good work being done there.

It's probably a better investment than anything in the CT family...

GURPS is actually pretty nice.  I'm still hoping for GURPS: 1889
(first, use every cinematic rule...).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 13:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 12:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <20020408130651.A1686@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
 <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408153253.02eaa320@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl replies to me:
>On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:04:22PM -0400, laning wrote:
> >
> > It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and
> > equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really
> > good work being done there.
>
>It's probably a better investment than anything in the CT family...

But I already own everything in the CT family.  :->

Except a couple of alien modules, dangit.  I'm getting pretty strung out 
waiting for the reprint from Far Future!

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
Message-ID: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>But I already own everything in the CT family.  :->
>
I have that, the reprints, and everything that Leading Edge 
ever printed for Phoenix Command.

And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as 
PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.

I've noticed that with skill resolution or combat resolution 
systems, you've got too simple (CT), or simply inaccurate 
with too much potatoes (GURPS), or wildly inaccurate with 
long weapon lists (Rifts), or terribly accurate but nearly 
unplayable unless you are all gearheads with 12 hours to do 
60 seconds of combat (PCCS).

Friends, there has to be something better. Something that is 
a compromise between CT and PCCS, that doesn't make gross 
errors, that's as quick to play as Shellshock, and now Doug 
will beat me with a penguin....

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam Draper)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>

laning@wizard.net wrote:

>With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to
>the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300
>feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the
>government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting."

I have not heard this before about Vietnam era ammo.  I can tell you that
current production military production Lake City and Winchester ammo is
meeting mil-spec (3200+ fps for M193 (for M16A1s) and 3000+ fps for M855
(for M16A2s)).  The army still buys M16A1 ammo for rifles still in service
with the National Guard.  It is not match ammo, but the accuracy is pretty
good.  Certainly good enough to hit a torso at 500 yards with iron sights.

>government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam
>had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other
>assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.  Including poorer
>accuracy.

This guy Facker's experiences were exactly the opposite.  Most of the
comlaints I have heard about the early M16 stems from the poor reliability,
which was a result of the Army using the wrong kind of powder.  There is
also a pretty big prejudice against the smaller caliber, which is somewhat
understandable given that few states allow hunters to use .223 on big game.
And deer do not shoot back.  But the 7.62x39 is pretty similar ballistically
to the venerable 30/30; with FMJ bullets it would hardly be a death ray
either.

That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than the
AK-47 or even the M14.

>Let us please leave as a separate thread the discussion of whether aimed
>rifle fire is any different in battlefield effectiveness from unaimed
>fire.

Like I said above, the M16 is a very accurate platform.  It will make pretty
small holes once the muzzle velocity falls below 2700 fps (about 15-200
yards).  Fortunately, like you said, most opponents will take a powder once
they are shot, no matter how severe the wound.

>Recently, Tod Glenn seems to have made the most articulate explanations on
>the TML for why gauss weapons will be the infantry weapons of choice at
>tech levels that permit them.

That is very interesting.  I have read in tests that little darts at high
velocities are remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do
little tissue damage.  But odd things happen at high velocities.  I'll see
if I can dig up my source.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:15:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:15:38 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
In-Reply-To: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D7483C.37BB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 12:59 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as
> PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.

Please enlighten me.  PCCS?
> 
> I've noticed that with skill resolution or combat resolution
> systems, you've got too simple (CT), or simply inaccurate
> with too much potatoes (GURPS), or wildly inaccurate with
> long weapon lists (Rifts), or terribly accurate but nearly
> unplayable unless you are all gearheads with 12 hours to do
> 60 seconds of combat (PCCS).

That's the GM's jog, isn't it?  Personally, I like a combat system that can
be handled with a couple of die rolls.  I use modified CT and fill in the
missing details

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
In-Reply-To: <B8D7483C.37BB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018297856.1051.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 4/8/02 12:59 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as
> > PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.
> 
> Please enlighten me.  PCCS?

I'd guess on phoenix command.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:56:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:56:04 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
Message-ID: <200204082055.DQH04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn asks
>
>Please enlighten me.  PCCS?

Phoenix Command Combat System, 4th Edition, with all 
supplements. A product of the now defunct Leading Edge Games.

>
>That's the GM's jog, isn't it?  Personally, I like a combat 
>system that can be handled with a couple of die rolls.  I 
>use modified CT and fill in the missing details
>

The rolls are quick enough for the experienced GM using PCCS -
 it's the players who choke on it if they don't like having 
to plan their actions to the Nth detail, or look through 
tables, or recalculate this and that.  It comes with a 
stripped down version as well, but if you had bought PCCS for 
the realism, the stripped version bites.

Also, the wounding and incapacitation tends to be tedious.  
You do receive points of damage, but most of the time it's so 
far off the scale you just fall down and die later.  Rifle 
rounds in particular will just *do* you.  One hit from a 
Garand in the torso and you're going to die if the medic 
doesn't stabilize you (that's if you didn't die outright).  
The odds of a graze are not as high as you would like.  And 
you *can* kill someone with a .22 pistol shot to the eye, if 
you're lucky.  Try and kill someone with a body pistol in 
CT.  It won't happen to the average character.  OTOH, you 
could be hit by two people who empty their Walther PPKs into 
you in PCCS, and if you're hit just right, you won't fall 
down until later.  Gives you that extra time to point that 
Super 90 in their direction and make them eat it.

The advanced small arms damage tables from the game came from 
Computerman, a model you may recall.  Now try that by hand 
instead of by computer.

Not like some games where you get popped with 3D6 and keep 
running.

You can take it to extremes: bullets have "time of flight", 
weapons have a maximum ballistic accuracy, a maximum aim time 
beyond which aiming does no good, some weapons come to aim 
quicker but less accurately than others, while others may be 
slower but far more sure.  Excellent shotgun rules. There are 
good rules for leadership and planning.  Extensive animal 
rules, which are quite good.  Hand to hand is not so good, 
but you'll be shot before you get that close.  Blind fire, 3-
round burst, it goes on and on.  If you're a weapon gearhead, 
this is definitely the combat system for you. My favorite 
supplement has riot control weapons (plastic coated steel 
balls and rubber baton rounds), claymore, miniguns, 
flamethrowers, etc.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:17:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:17:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408170314.024b6258@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:46 PM 4/8/2002, Sam Draper wrote:
>I have read in tests that little darts at high velocities are remarkably 
>innefective.  They just punch through and do little tissue damage.

 From what I recall reading, the 60's era Army tests with high-velocity 
flechettes in the SPIW program.  This weapon was proposed by AAI, and fired 
65 gram steel flechette at high velocity (about 4800fps).  It was supposed 
to be quite effective at energy transfer - the dart would deform on hitting 
the target, and cause massive wounding.  In the 80's, Styr's Advanced 
Combat Rifle used the same general type of projectile.  In both projects, 
difficulties in manufacturing the ammunition led to relatively low accuracy.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408170314.024b6258@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>

Derek Wildstar writes:
> At 03:46 PM 4/8/2002, Sam Draper wrote:
> >I have read in tests that little darts at high velocities are remarkably 
> >innefective.  They just punch through and do little tissue damage.
> 
>  From what I recall reading, the 60's era Army tests with high-velocity 
> flechettes in the SPIW program.  This weapon was proposed by AAI, and fired
>  65 gram steel flechette at high velocity (about 4800fps).

I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).  A 65 gram
projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 2:21 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).  A 65 gram
> projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.


I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:53:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:53:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408170314.024b6258@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175151.020da5c8@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:21 PM 4/8/2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain

Probably.  ;-)  I'm at work, so I'm working from memory ...


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175242.01e90560@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:47 PM 4/8/2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
>I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.

That would be the one - I couldn't remember it's number (all I could 
remember was the name of the program, "SPIW".  I vaguely recall that AAI 
built the initial weapon, and that one of the armories made improved 
versions - but they had trouble with the tolerances on the ammo, and 
couldn't make it reliable enough for economical manufacture, let alone 
issue - so the M16 got the nod).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:56:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:56:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175242.01e90560@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:47 PM 4/8/2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
>I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.

That would be the one - I couldn't remember it's number (all I could 
remember was the name of the program, "SPIW".  I vaguely recall that AAI 
built the initial weapon, and that one of the armories made improved 
versions - but they had trouble with the tolerances on the ammo, and 
couldn't make it reliable enough for economical manufacture, let alone 
issue - so the M16 got the nod).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 16:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 15:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175151.020da5c8@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <B8D760BD.37C1C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 2:52 PM, Derek Wildstar at wildstar@qrc.com wrote:

> At 05:21 PM 4/8/2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain
> 
> Probably.  ;-)  I'm at work, so I'm working from memory ...

Aha!  Don't have your copy of the Stevens and Ezell book (The deadliest
weapon that never was). How fortuitous that I have that little factoid
memorized.  My wife says I have the gum brain.  <g>
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 16:17:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Mon Apr  8 15:17:35 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Ship Storage
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17920@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

	Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
on the number of ship's crew and other factors?

Mikey:
I figured that Life Support for X days covers food
space/requirements/storage. Anything extra above that for life support is 1
ton = 150 man days of food/supplies (based on Belt Strike????)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 16:44:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 15:44:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408144051.02823ba0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB2C59D.18860.53D550@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 14:53, laning wrote:

> The missing TO&E elements that I'm most troubled by are indirect fire
> support weapons and special weapons.  No Auto RAM grenade launchers, no
> light mortars, no heavy machine guns, no antiarmor weapons.  That sort
> of thing.  We can always at least pretend that things like field ovens
> are held by dedicated support units that are outside the battalion or
> regiment level.  I'm also troubled by the lack of staff officers and
> troops.  There is no Logistics, Intelligence, or Operations section in
> any of the battalions or regiments I can recall.  Even the Soviets and
> the Chinese haven't simplified so much that there is no Logistics staff
> at regimental level.  But the biggest problem for me is the lack of
> supporting arms that you'd expect from TL 12 and TL 14 or 15
> organizations.

Looking at the TO they have artillery at Regimental and Battalion 
level, armed with MRLs and missile launchers. The APCs carry 6 tac 
missiles (except fire support models which have VRF gauss MGs instead) 
and thirty smaller fire & forget missiles. They also have the use of 
three SDBs for ortillery support. All this from _The Spinward Marches 
Campaign_. Even so they seem to be under equipped with indirect fire 
support (more like a Soviet tank regiment than anything else). I 
suspect (though CT didn't say much on this AFAIK) that good point-
defence systems could have a lot to do with this - you'd want to use a 
lot of direct fire and _fast_ rockets and missiles in such an 
environment.

They also have 10 Ramparts, for local aerospace superoirity missions 
and recon I presume. I'm not sure of the utility of these, to be 
honest.

SMC doesn't say what the troopies are equiped with, but Striker II 
(which has the same TO listed) tells us that they're all in TL-14 heavy 
battledress and have fusion rifles and tac missiles in each 5-man 
squad.

> >I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
> >the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
> >used to supply and support its troops.
> 
> Yeah, it's unclear to me exactly what mission the Milieu 1100 Imperial
> army and marines are tailored to.  Fully mobilized general warfare
> against opponents like the Outworld Coalition?

That would be the Army, but not all of it. I suspect you'd need the TO 
of one of the units used in the Seige of Terra to get a look at an 
Imperial 'assault' or 'tank' unit.

> Internal control and
> policing?  Border defense against pocket empires and pirates?  And just
> how much orbital supremacy do they count on achieving and maintaining?

All of it, of course.

> Perhaps all they expect from their regiments is for them to be glorified
> armed reconnaissance sufficient to get ortillery observers to bring
> accurate fire onto important targets and then accept the surrender of
> local opposition commanders.  I am comfortable with that sort of
> scenario happening a lot, but certainly not all, of the time.  But even
> so, the regiments would be much better off as true combined arms teams,
> not just a bunch of mobile riflemen.

They do have a lot of organic firepower, and a decent number of tanks. 
Again it looks more like a Soviet unit than a Western one (MR in this 
case) - lots of organic direct-fire and anti-tank support, and the 
artillery held higher up. And those tanks are really big and nasty, 
BTW.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
References: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB220F3.A0C5FF6A@premier.net>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Friends, there has to be something better. Something that is
> a compromise between CT and PCCS, that doesn't make gross
> errors, that's as quick to play as Shellshock, and now Doug
> will beat me with a penguin....
> 
Nah, he'll just hit you with a rolled-up copy of _At Close Quarters_....

http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?BITSRACQ

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
In-Reply-To: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020408193202.00e31ac0@buffnet.net>

At 03:59 PM 4/8/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>laning says
>>
>>But I already own everything in the CT family.  :->
>>
>I have that, the reprints, and everything that Leading Edge 
>ever printed for Phoenix Command.
>
>And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as 
>PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.

Two comments:

1) PCCS can be streamlined with the use of Excel
2) PCCS doesn't differentiate between someone who knows how to use a pistol
versus one who uses a shotgun


If you want to, build a simple database using excel and have a single page
that has the following entries:

Weapon
aim point
aim time
range
Stance
daylight

Die roll to hit

From that, it should be simple enough to determine what the results are...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408232954.14194.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
But yeah, the unit suffered from Hollywooditis. Who
issues a support weapon you have to use standing up?
END QUOTE

If you gave me a support weapon that had thermal
seeking rounds I would use it standing up ;) And
remember they where colonial marines. Probably didn't
get as much training as they should.

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020408233500.27629.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
>>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be
>>defeated rather easily by someone ruthless enough.
>>That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be attached to
>>the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...

> I see we've met some of the same player characters. 
:->

Alas, I understand that there have actually been a
couple of real world cases of this already. And it's
been a standard dodge in fiction for *at least* 50
years.
END QUOTE

I read in the paper that a finger print scanner that
tells if the finger is a live by scanning under the
top layers of skin has been developed. This will
bugger up all those PC's who chop of peoples fingers
;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
Message-ID: <200204082337.DQN01624@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

hal@buffnet.net  says
>Two comments:
>
>1) PCCS can be streamlined with the use of Excel
>2) PCCS doesn't differentiate between someone who knows how 
>to use a pistol versus one who uses a shotgun
>
That's up to the referee to divide gun combat skills. It 
would appear that the designers left the "roleplaying" part 
of the game in a half-baked condition.  However, I haven't 
had any trouble mapping the system to CT skills.

>If you want to, build a simple database using excel and have 
>a single page that has the following entries:
>
>Weapon
>aim point
>aim time
>range
>Stance
>daylight
>
>Die roll to hit
>
That's not the problem so much as the players being happy 
with the action sequencing and pre-planned movement (in the 
advanced rules).  Most players are uncomfortable with action 
counts to that level of detail (a much higher level of detail 
than At Close Quarters or Snapshot).  

I've written an application in Smalltalk to do the whole 
firing and damage sequence - that was easy.  But it didn't 
solve the player's dislike of millisecond level detail.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408235622.20414.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
We'll gladly take you, son.  You don't have to be a
U.S. citizen to be a U.S. Marine.  I shared a barracks
room for a year with a Lebanese Christian 
who was still a Lebanese citizen.  Contact the closest
American consulate if you're serious.  Be sure to be
able to do lots of pull ups from a dead hang and run
three miles in under say 24 minutes.

And when you get off the plane to go to the Marine
Corps Recruit Depot, just remember these two words: 
"yellow footprints".  <WEG>

Much more serious advice.  Possibly the most important
advice you will ever get in your life.  Find an MOS
that gives you the training and expertise you want to
use in your civilian career after you get it, and get
that guaranteed in writing and signed by an officer. 
Do not accept any talk no matter how reasonable or
persuasive as a substitute.  Get the MOS you want, 
guaranteed.  In writing.  In writing.

--Laning
END QUOTE

Well I would try that except my mother would kill me
;)
She worries enough about me joining the reserves here,
let alone the regular army or god forbid the USMC. She
really worries that with all that's happening there is
going to be another big war. I will however take your
advice on getting my MOS guaranteed in writing from an
officer. I wouldn't want to end up cooking :) I may
even move down near Sydney so I can join a cavalry
unit. That way I wouldn't have to be a dirty rotten
leg :)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 18:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Mon Apr  8 17:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
In-Reply-To: <200204082337.DQN01624@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHMEDNDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

>> John Kwon
>> But it didn't solve the player's dislike of millisecond level detail.

Having played PCCS, I like the system a great deal.  However, actual use
becomes more of a simulation as opposed to an RPG, which is my take on why
people dont like it.  It is hard to come up with a good balance as players
want a wide spectrum of "realism" in their games.

As for the skills in the game, the rules were always meant to be added into
other systems as a combat overlay.  They just say "Gun skill" and leave the
referee to decide if it is for all Pistols, a specific pistol, or simply all
firearms.

Justin


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 18:32:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 17:32:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
In-Reply-To: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHMEDNDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
References: <200204082337.DQN01624@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020408203714.00e31ac0@buffnet.net>

At 05:23 PM 4/8/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>>> John Kwon
>>> But it didn't solve the player's dislike of millisecond level detail.
>
>Having played PCCS, I like the system a great deal.  However, actual use
>becomes more of a simulation as opposed to an RPG, which is my take on why
>people dont like it.  It is hard to come up with a good balance as players
>want a wide spectrum of "realism" in their games.
>
>As for the skills in the game, the rules were always meant to be added into
>other systems as a combat overlay.  They just say "Gun skill" and leave the
>referee to decide if it is for all Pistols, a specific pistol, or simply all
>firearms.

At one point in time, I created a set of rules for using PCCS with GURPS.
It worked relatively well.  My players still remember the time they caught
a military patrol in a ravine.  They had two laws plus assorted personal
fire arms (was an Aftermath like scenario).  Took out the radioman plus the
officer, along with the squad weapon user.  After that, it was mostly a mop
up.  The trick to using GURPS with PCCS is to use Movement points as action
points.  The average DX guy using guns with no weapon skill is a skill
rating of 7.  Someone marginally trained in the weapon is skill 10.  The
chart of course continues from there...

         Hal

PS - if you have the sci-fi version of the weapons from PCCS, it makes for
an interesting mix ;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 18:35:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 17:35:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB2DFC4.13707.BA0366@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 13:46, Sam Draper wrote:

> That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
> because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than
> the AK-47 or even the M14.

In that case the M14 must be considerably less accurate than the old M1 
Garand its based on. IMER the M1 is at least as accurate as the M16A1, 
assuming similar conditions.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408181400.027f5840@pop.wizard.net>

At 01:46 PM 4/8/02 -0600, you wrote:
>laning@wizard.net wrote:
>
> >With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to
> >the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300
> >feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the
> >government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting."
>
>I have not heard this before about Vietnam era ammo.

In the 1980s also.  Marines I knew would take samples home and take them 
apart.  I believe it was the sniper school at Quantico where one of the 
officers told me that the bullets were 52 grains, on average, rather than 
the 55 grains the government was paying for.  And there wasn't as much 
powder as there was supposed to be, but don't recall the specific numbers 
now.  I seem to recall reading something similar somewhere at the time, 
maybe in 'Soldier of Fortune'?  Anyway, I was told by the people who 
randomly checked the ammo that reached the front-line troops that we were 
typically getting 2100 fps, and it wasn't very unusual to get under 1800 
fps.  All of this is subject to my memory working correctly, which isn't 
just a boilerplate warning, I have significant problems with it.  The same 
kind of scams take place in government purchasing all the time.  Once the 
initial production runs have been accepted, the quality checks are very 
coarse and easy to see coming.  And possibly there's some graft at work, 
too.  Everything from clothing being a little lighter weight than paid for 
to rations being a little lighter.  An unscrupulous contractor often finds 
it's easy to increase their profit margin by five percent or so, this way.


>   I can tell you that
>current production military production Lake City and Winchester ammo is
>meeting mil-spec (3200+ fps for M193 (for M16A1s) and 3000+ fps for M855
>(for M16A2s)).

How is this data verified or acquired, please?  I'm just curious to get 
another data point, not being accusatory or argumentative.  :->

>   The army still buys M16A1 ammo for rifles still in service
>with the National Guard.  It is not match ammo, but the accuracy is pretty
>good.  Certainly good enough to hit a torso at 500 yards with iron sights.

We were all doing that with our crappy ammo in the 1980s.  It's easy when 
they hold nice and still and you can take your time firing.

> >government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam
> >had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other
> >assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.  Including poorer
> >accuracy.
>
>This guy Facker's experiences were exactly the opposite.  Most of the
>comlaints I have heard about the early M16 stems from the poor reliability,
>which was a result of the Army using the wrong kind of powder.

Partly.  What I hear mentioned only rarely is that any really high velocity 
weapon necessarily requires closer working tolerances for moving 
parts.  That means it doesn't take much foreign material or carbon 
accumulation to jam or slow down a moving part.  Which leads us to the 
major difference between the M-16 and the M-16A1, addition of the forward 
assist to help clear jams and addition of the ejection port cover to help 
keep foreign material away from the bolt.

>   There is
>also a pretty big prejudice against the smaller caliber, which is somewhat
>understandable given that few states allow hunters to use .223 on big game.
>And deer do not shoot back.  But the 7.62x39 is pretty similar ballistically
>to the venerable 30/30; with FMJ bullets it would hardly be a death ray
>either.

The talk about pros and cons of various infantry weapons is so larded with 
prejudices that I figure none of us who open our mouths on the topic are 
completely free of some prejudice on it.  And many are really bad.  John 
Wayne smashing the M-16 against a tree in 'The Green Berets' and calling it 
a child's plastic toy and blaming it for the death of his troops.  Well, 
they couldn't smash a real M-16 against a tree because alloy and fiberglass 
is a lot tougher than what they thought of it back in 1966.  The director 
had to get an actual plastic toy imitation of an M-16 so that "the Duke" 
could smash it.  And there are at least tens of thousands of people who to 
this day think it's a cheap plastic piece of junk because of that 
movie.  People who carried one in a combat zone themselves and should know 
better.


>That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
>because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than the
>AK-47 or even the M14.
>
> >Let us please leave as a separate thread the discussion of whether aimed
> >rifle fire is any different in battlefield effectiveness from unaimed
> >fire.
>
>Like I said above, the M16 is a very accurate platform.  It will make pretty
>small holes once the muzzle velocity falls below 2700 fps (about 15-200
>yards).  Fortunately, like you said, most opponents will take a powder once
>they are shot, no matter how severe the wound.
The muzzle velocity remains the same, regardless of how far away the target 
is.  Muzzle velocity is the speed of the bullet as it leaves the 
muzzle.  The projectile velocity declines as it loses momentum from air 
friction and succumbing to gravity.  Muzzle velocity for government ammo 
for the A1 was just over 2700 fps.  I should be able to remember the 
precise figure, I thought that was indelibly inscribed in memory.  Had 
trouble the other day remembering my EAS date too!  Imagine that one.  I 
guess the Marine Corps Birthday will be the next to go, followed by my own 
birthday.  Hand loaders can get 3250 fps with a 56-grain bullet.  Anyway, 
it shot pretty accurately for me on the rifle range even on some fairly 
windy days.  And my score went up about 4 or 5 points when they gave me the A2.

The 5.56 in each of its incarnations ended up being a distinct improvement 
over the M-1 carbine in performance, and a lot more manageable than those 
big ol' M-14s.  The days I had to go on long runs with a rifle at port arms 
I was damned glad that the M-14 was before my time, let me tell you!  As I 
recall learning it, the story of the M-16 becoming the standard US infantry 
rifle was as much politics as anything else.  It found its way to being 
proposed for sale to military allies in Southeast Asia and other places 
where the average soldier was much smaller and lighter than the average US 
soldier (because of its lighter weight and lower recoil), wound up being 
used by special American units that worked closely with said allies as much 
for compatibility as anything, then was chosen as a suitable "carbine" 
replacement for troops in vehicles and such who only need something for 
self defense, and finally ended up being given to everyone in the name of 
standardization.  At almost each step on that path, something more was done 
to nerf the weapon.  I am sure I don't have all the details right, but 
that's the gist of it.  The A2 model was basically a step towards 
un-nerfing it, and giving it back some of the power it had in one of its 
earlier forms.  That decision too, was as much politics as anything 
else.  The official reason given was compatibility with the 5.56 ammo used 
by NATO allies.

Basically, the M-16 is a good varmint rifle on steroids, with the furniture 
and "accessories" suitable for a good assault rifle.  Just like the M-1 
Garand or M-14 are good deer and other medium game rifles on steroids, with 
improved furniture and "accessories" for their day and suitable for the 
battlefield.

I don't think it's a stupid idea to take a varmint rifle and turn it into a 
combat rifle.  It does have its advantages.  But I'd feel more sanguine 
about firing a 130-, 150- or 180-grain bullet from something chambered for 
7.62 NATO or .303 British than a 55-grain bullet.  Like most other things, 
it's a combination of trade offs because you can't have one thing that will 
give you all the attributes you wish for.


> >Recently, Tod Glenn seems to have made the most articulate explanations on
> >the TML for why gauss weapons will be the infantry weapons of choice at
> >tech levels that permit them.
>
>That is very interesting.  I have read in tests that little darts at high
>velocities are remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do
>little tissue damage.  But odd things happen at high velocities.  I'll see
>if I can dig up my source.

We're talking about gauss weapon projectiles moving at speeds well in 
excess of 1,450 meters per second or faster, not feet per second.  Just to 
remind everyone of the perspective.  By way of comparison, the nominal 
2,710 feet/second muzzle velocity of the old M-16 is only 826 meters/second.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408211451.027f3ec0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon's soul quests desperately for completion:

>I've noticed that with skill resolution or combat resolution
>systems, you've got too simple (CT), or simply inaccurate
>with too much potatoes (GURPS), or wildly inaccurate with
>long weapon lists (Rifts), or terribly accurate but nearly
>unplayable unless you are all gearheads with 12 hours to do
>60 seconds of combat (PCCS).
>
>Friends, there has to be something better.

Perfect opportunity for computer-aided gaming.  Combat software with the 
terrain map, weather, characters, equipment, etc. and the player tells the 
ref what he wants his character to do and the ref tells the 
computer.  Enter the moves for all characters, then hit Enter and find out 
what happens.  All input and output should go through the ref, so the ref 
can alter the cut & dried calculations to conform with what the referee 
believes or wants to manipulate.

Nobody seems interesting in writing that software because they're either 
writing traditional RPG rules, miniatures rules, or a complete computer 
game.  I must say it's hard to think of a business model where the 
developers will get paid more than nickels and dimes, so it's hard to blame 
folks for not doing it.

What's needed is a Nonprofit Institute for the Advancement of Game Design, 
with good funding.  There is something a little bit like that out there 
now, but it focuses on complete computer games and has various troubles 
including funding.  Or an open-source movement for computer-aided gaming 
that's widespread, the way the Linus open-source movement is widespread.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:26:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:26:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408180047.009f1d00@mindspring.com>

At 12:32 AM 4/9/02 +1200, you wrote:

>I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were
>based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped
>their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its
>subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its
>companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it
>belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles,
>field ovens, etc.

Give the man a see-gar.  I based the Imperial Army units in GF on the 
standards for Soviet units of similar size and missions. A Motorized Rifle 
Regiment was supposed to be a self-contained combat unit, able to fight on 
its own without the constant need to be tied to higher command just to 
perform its basic mission.

>I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
>the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
>used to supply and support its troops.

Remember what they say about assumptions...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:27:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:27:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408180410.00a05160@mindspring.com>

At 01:14 PM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>What about the Sergeant (Apone?) - I thought the role of an NCO was to 
>stop the officers messing everything up? Clearly he has more experience 
>than Gorman and yet he's quite happy to lead his troops into an unknown 
>environment against an unknown force AND he gives all the ammo to one man.

Apone was given a legal order by his commanding officer.  He followed 
it.  Evidently, SOP was to have one man carry all the ammo.  Oops. I'm 
surprised he didn't know that Drake had the extra BFG thingies.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
 <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408181304.009eb5c0@mindspring.com>

At 03:04 PM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and 
>equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really 
>good work being done there.

More than half the book is game neutral.  Just good information about the 
forces.

>The Keith-class was named in honor?  Well done.  :->

The lander's name is the M. Keith's name run through a Vilani name generator.


>If I were the Imperium, I wouldn't bother to build standard troop 
>transports that carry less than a complete battalion.  Brigades or 
>divisions would have logistical elements that are more forward on the 
>battlefield, and most of the logistical tail on the ground would be at 
>corps level or higher.  It sounds like the Keith class represents pretty 
>similar thinking.  :->

Yep.  I had a design for a *divisional* cold-sleep ship, but I had to make 
some space choices.

>I think there is a very important, but still subsidiary, role for ships 
>that transport and land Imperial Marine companies and it sounds like you 
>think the same way.  You're probably aware that the US considers the 
>Marine battalion to be the standard chunk to embark and deploy, plus full 
>supporting elements.  But there are a lot of ways in which they are poor 
>analogues for Imperial Marines.

Credit where credit is due Dpt. The vehicle and ship designs were the work 
of others.. I just put out deign ideas on a mailing list I established for 
the purpose, and we debated the various designs.  The entire 
Sunburst-series missile sleds were really fun to come up with.

>Your grav sleds make a lot of sense.  I bet you have ambulance sleds, aid 
>station sleds, and field kitchen sleds too?

These are simple conversion of the basic G-carrier, much like the US Army 
has these variations for the Hum-vee.'

>Finally, I've been meaning for a long time to compliment you on the sig 
>about embracing fascism because the uniforms look cool.  Nice.

Once again, not mine.  It was uttered on the TML by a soul who asked not to 
be attributed in the sig.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:35:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:35:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408180047.009f1d00@mindspring.com>
References: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB2EDB0.4851.F063FB@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 18:03, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 12:32 AM 4/9/02 +1200, you wrote:
> 
> >I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were
> >based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped
> >their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its
> >subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its
> >companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it
> >belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles,
> >field ovens, etc.
> 
> Give the man a see-gar.  I based the Imperial Army units in GF on the
> standards for Soviet units of similar size and missions. A Motorized
> Rifle Regiment was supposed to be a self-contained combat unit, able to
> fight on its own without the constant need to be tied to higher command
> just to perform its basic mission.

I was actually talking about the SMC and Striker II Imperial units (I 
already knew yours were based of the Soviets, though to me some of them 
look more like a US unit).
 
> >I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
> >the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
> >used to supply and support its troops.
> 
> Remember what they say about assumptions...

I never claimed that the Imperium was always right, or omnicompetent. 
:)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:38:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:38:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
Message-ID: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning tasks me
>
>Perfect opportunity for computer-aided gaming.  Combat 
>software with the terrain map, weather, characters, 
>equipment, etc. and the player tells the 
>ref what he wants his character to do and the ref tells the 
>computer.  Enter the moves for all characters, then hit 
>Enter and find out 
>what happens.

There's no reason I couldn't write this.  There's no reason 
it couldn't run over the Internet, either.

Damn you, laning....
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:39:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:39:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408181304.009eb5c0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB2EEB9.12979.F4729E@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 18:19, Douglas Berry wrote:

> Once again, not mine.  It was uttered on the TML by a soul who asked not
> to be attributed in the sig.

Wasn't that in relation to the Starship Troopers movie?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:41:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:41:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <200204090139.DQR01653@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>Oops. I'm surprised he didn't know that Drake had the extra 
>BFG thingies.
>

If I had the weapon out of the armory, M-16 or M21 or M24, I 
always had ammunition - even if I had not been issued any, or 
had been ordered to "give it up".
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 20:01:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 19:01:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408211451.027f3ec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:21:16PM -0400
References: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020408211451.027f3ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020408200055.A2997@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:21:16PM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> Nobody seems interesting in writing that software because they're either 
> writing traditional RPG rules, miniatures rules, or a complete computer 
> game.  I must say it's hard to think of a business model where the 
> developers will get paid more than nickels and dimes, so it's hard to blame 
> folks for not doing it.

My business model is I write software I want, then GPL it.  Thus it is
now and forevermore free, and will hopefully be of some use to the
world at large.  I pay for food by another mechanism entirely.

> Or an open-source movement for computer-aided gaming that's
> widespread, the way the Linux open-source movement is widespread.

Well, it's easy enough: start writing.  Linux didn't start out
well-funded; indeed, the vast majority of its development was
_unfunded_.  The whole mechanism is that one writes the kind of
software one wishes to use--then by using it, discovers where the
problems are, and fixes them.  The use of the GPL ensures that anyone
else who fixes a problem is incented to release his (small)
modification to your (major) work.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We English-speaking peoples should keep hold of the essential fact about
foreign languages: They exist to make us laugh.        --John Derbyshire

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 20:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 19:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <3CB2EEB9.12979.F4729E@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408181304.009eb5c0@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408190941.009f9670@mindspring.com>

At 01:38 PM 4/9/02 +1200, you wrote:
>On 8 Apr 2002 at 18:19, Douglas Berry wrote:
>
> > Once again, not mine.  It was uttered on the TML by a soul who asked not
> > to be attributed in the sig.
>
>Wasn't that in relation to the Starship Troopers movie?

Yep.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 20:53:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon Apr  8 19:53:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 08, 2002 12:47:07 AM
Message-ID: <200204090153.g391rtO02801@localhost.uia.net>

> Chemical reaction rates depend strongly on the mass of the atoms. Atoms
> with similar properties (same column in the periodic table) react at
> rates that are strongly connected with their mass differences. 
>
> So the rates might increase dramaticly.

Under, say 99%, inertial suppression, the mass-ratios would still
be the same as under zero suppression.
 
> Molecular collisions in air would result in the molecules stopping,
> rather than rebounding. So the opposing portions of their vectors would
> cancel out. Add in the effects of gravity, and all the air molecules
> would be in a thin layer near the floor. 

But gravity would have less of a pull of the air molecules, being that
they would have a lower apparent mass under inertial suppresion, so
again we're looking at these effects cancelling each other out.

> Thermal effects on the gases get weird too.

I'm not sure how to handle these.

Speaking on the atomic level:
> Then you're dead. Too many of the forces at those levels *do* depend on
> inertia. Lowering inertia raises the *effective* force.

I'm not sure what the effective force is. I've heard of strong, the
weak, the electromagnetic, and gravity. Maybe we should only be
considering these forces and how atoms would be effected different by
a lower constant for inertia across the entire system being considered.
Basically, I'm looking for an effect that would not cancel out. In
the first example you gave, you say that one molecule won't react
properly with another because the former's mass is too low. But what
if both of their masses are lower by the same percentage? In the
second example, you say that atoms bouncing against each other will
tend not to bounce as much under inertial suppression, and will tend
to crowd at the floor. But you fail to consider that gravity will have
less of a pull on inertia-suppressed molecules, so that the crowding
shouldn't occur. I think it would be better to look at really simple
problems in a closed system involving only a pair of atoms to show
how their movements would be changed if BOTH of their apparent masses
were lowered by the same percentage.

If we only look at gravity, I don't see there being any difference
in their movements. Masses fall at the same speed (newton). So inertial
supression should have no effect on gravity. As for the other four
forces, I don't know enough physics to answer that.

> As an example, the reason that water doesn't boil at around -150 F is
> because of Van der waals forces. Compare the boiling points of hydrogen
> oxide, hydrogen sulfide, and so on down that column in the periodic
> table. All of them *but* H2O have very low boiling points. 
>
> Lowering the inertia of the molecules will have the effect of adding
> similar forces. Which will change the physical and chemical properties
> of compounds *drastically*. 

Does this example consider that the entire system is inertially
suppressed to the same percentage, and that all four of the fundamental
forces are effected accordingly?

> >> This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
> >> work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
> >> viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.
> >
> > Except that your heart would also be of a lower apparent mass.
> 
> What's *that* got to do with it? The pumping forces are due to
> contraction of the muscle fibers. The mass of the heart has little
> relevance there. The only effect it'd have (to the first order, anyway)
> is making it *easier* to contract. 

Which is why I'd rather look at really simple systems of only a
pair of atoms, so that all the complicating factors can be taken
out of the way and we can see what would really occur at the most
fundamental level.
 
> > Instead of thinking of a normal pool ball hitting a styrofoam ball,
> > think of one styrofoam ball hitting another one. On the molecular
> > scale, I'm guessing that this would be more akin to what would be
> > happening. -Jim
> 
> Nope. Because you lose the rebound. 

I'm not talking about 100% inertial suppression. I agree that
this would cause a great deal of strangeness, which I don't
really want to examine. For practical purposes, I'm talking about
suppression somewhere between 90% and 99.999%. -Jim
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 21:05:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 20:05:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405074625.009ee8d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20408.200150.0q9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 05:45 AM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>Although my Dante is rusty and my personal sentiments
>>don't agree...
>>
>>"Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."
>
> That's Milton, from "Paradise Lost."
>
> Dante's best line came from The Inferno... the inscription on the gates of 
> Hell.
>
> "I AM THE WAY INTO THE CITY OF WOE
> I AM THE WAY TO A FORSAKEN PEOPLE
> I AM THE WAY INTO ETERNAL SORROW
>
> SACRED JUSTICE MOVED MY ARCHITECT
> I WAS RAISED THERE BY DIVINE OMNIPOTENCE
> PRIMORDIAL LOVE AND ULTIMATE INTELLECT.
>
> ONLY THOSE ELEMENTS TIME CANNOT WEAR
> WERE MADE BEFORE ME, AND BEYOND TIME I STAND.
> ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."
>
> I want that on the door to my gaming room.. :)

WSounds like the routine I pulled one Halloween when the local <adult>
club I belonged to was having a "play party". 

I'd answer the door, smile at the people and use a sweeping hand
gesture to invite them in as I quoted Dracula (from the movie):

"Enter freely, and of your own will..."

Only a few got it. You could tell by the *look* on their faces and the
way they thought it over for a minute before entering. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 21:06:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 20:06:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Tugs, etc
In-Reply-To: <200204041934.DIV01979@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20408.192730.5x5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I haven't seen many designs for a "tug", a useful vessel for 
> attaching to and moving other larger vessels.  Might also be 
> useful for moving large asteroids that come in from the outer 
> system and pose a hazard to navigation (or even to a planet).
>
> Was just reading
> http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-space-
> menace0404apr04.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnationworld%2Dheadlines
>
> and had a mental picture of some bored tug crew getting 
> orders to move out and push this piece of rock into the sun.

Solar impact trajectories require about half again as much delta-V as a
system escape trajactory.


escape velocity = sqrt(2) * orbital velocity.

Since you have to kill better than 90% of the oribital velocity to hit
the star....

It's *far* simpler to just adjust the orbit to not go near anyplace you
care about or to nudge it into a parking orbit around something.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 21:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon Apr  8 20:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 08, 2002 12:47:07 AM
Message-ID: <200204090209.g3929Gw02878@localhost.uia.net>

Okay, I'm going to post an argument which another friend
just sent me. This might scuttle the idea of inertial
suppression. Let me know what you think.

Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
suppression, they move toward each other much faster
than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
I wrong? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 22:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 21:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051636.DKL02665@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20408.201302.1d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> ObTrav:  The easiest holdout to design would be a laser.  You 
> could isolate the powerpack and electronics at some other 
> location under the clothing, run a fiber optic cable to the 
> hand area, contrive a trigger (ring pull?), and have the exit 
> optics somewhere over the back of the hand.  If you made a 
> fist, and curled the fist inward, the ring would pull the 
> trigger and the beam would fire over the back of the hand.

The optical fiber that can handle a weapons grade laser doesn't exist.
And isn't likely to. 

And one bit of damage and the laser energy gets deposited in the
damaged section of fiber. Ouch!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 22:41:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 21:41:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Grav Kitchens
Message-ID: <7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe@aol.com>

--part1_7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   I'd like to see that design :)
  -Ken-

--part1_7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;I'd like to see that design :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 22:46:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr  8 21:46:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <F149PnvEZZ91Lhdms4Q000022be@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1df81$7b919c00$0b01a8c0@duck>

>      You are correct, sir.  My apologies for "bum doping" the List.

And I apologize for sounding like a jerk.  I sometimes forget
how stuff will appear when someone else reads it.

>      "While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I
> don't see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the
> trick is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it."
>
>      Yes, seeding the star with enough tungsten and aiming correctly will
> take time.  Perhaps the Darrians use multiple probes to increase their
> chances?

That is a pretty reasonable idea.  I figure they would be jumping in with
a fleet, not just a squadron.  They probably have a couple of "probe" ships
and multiple ships that can deliver the meson trigger.

Plus, I also figure they would be dependent on relative surprise.  If they
face a coordinated defense that is expecting them, they are probably best
advised to try a different system in a week or so.

[ BIG snip ]
>      The "real" reason the Star Trigger wasn't used during all those
> centuries is that weapons of mass destruction aren't, except in very rare
> cases, used to ensure you'll WIN a war.  They're used to ensure that the
> other fellow LOSES the war.  This is a important distinction.  The Star
> Trigger and MAD, on which it is based, is a suicide pact; "You push us too
> far and we'll make sure we all die, you included."

Good point.  I was focused on the SW, not the bigger picture.  The
background does imply that the Star Trigger was created with the Zhodani
in mind, not the SW.  (Though if their relationship ever went sour,
they would probably include the Imperium with the Zhodani.)

>      The Trigger can be used defensively rather easily, by employing it
you
> ensure that the power about to conquer you is left with nothing worth
> conquering.  Using the Trigger offensively, like nukes, is far tougher.
...

I seriously doubt the Darrians would destroy their own worlds to prevent
capture.  The only reason I can think of for them to intentionally use
the Star Trigger in one of their own systems is if they believed they could
nail a major fleet, then come back in to fix the system.

They would, however, without hesitation do a deep penetration to wipe
out an enemy world.  Or several.

>      "I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an incredible
> accomplishment in its own right."
>
>      Keeping the secret that the Trigger demonstration was a fake was the
> really incrediable accomplishment.  The fakers had to fool both the
> observers from the other powers AND their own people utterly and
> completely.
>   Why didn't the secret never leak out?  Mass suicide among the project
> staff over "creating" so horrible a weapon?

I imagine the Darrians would be pragmatic enough to have a mass "suicide"
to keep the secret.  I figure some of those in the "suicide" really did
commit real suicide after making sure the "suicides" took place.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020409053141.28337.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Apone was given a legal order by his commanding
officer. He followed it.  Evidently, SOP was to have
one man carry all the ammo.  Oops. I'm surprised he
didn't know that Drake had the extra BFG thingies.
END QUOTE

No Doug, Vasquez had the extra links for the smart
guns. Tsk tsk tsk. Strap him down boys he needs
another four hours on continous loop. :) The thing I
find strange about the movie is that Apone doesn't
comment on Drake and Vasquez taking point even though
they have   "supposedly" disarmed weapons! The funny
thing is Aliens fans have bigger debates over the
whole "they don't show up on infrared issues" (If the
aliens temp is low enough not to show up on infrared,
they wouldn't be able to move fast)than even the TML
piracy debates. However we have a better handwave, its
those damned cheapskate manufacturers of IR gear ;)

Does anyone have tonnages for a TL-15 PAWS* spinal
mount.


*Penguin Accelerator Weapon System

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:38:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:38:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAIEKKCOAA.redroach@pobox.com>

The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
civilians.  It has little or no military application,
contrary to popular mythos.

I don't know about that. I saw a story on the History channel about a Marine
officer in Korea I think. He made his men take bayonet practice even though
it was outdated.  They got pinned down on patrol and ran out of ammo.  THe
officer led a successful bayonet charge up a hill which wiped out the North
Koreans. That sounds a bit drastic, but useful.

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:41:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:41:10 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin
 gs
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

I know this has probably gone the round on the TML, but just in case. 

Star Wars Name =

First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name

First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
were born. 

Which makes me Mikhu Huper

Damn it, I sound like the old store keeper dude from Sesame Street. 

Apologies if already discussed/known/rejected 'cause it's not canon,
concerns pirates and/or near C rocks etc. 

So Darrien Thistle, born in Ermington, with his mothers maiden name of
Vaddlepettle would be

.... Darth Vader

Nice. 

Mikey

Ob Trav: I think that is clear. 

PS So if Dave Jaques Watson was born in Canberra, and his mother's name was
Smith, he would be Davwa Smcan.

I think I'll make him the evil dude in my next campaign (someone with an
incurable, non fatal but disfiguring disease).

Heh Heh Heh. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>; from Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:02:40PM +1000
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020408234503.A15920@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:02:40PM +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name

Robuh

> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born. 

Menor

Robuh Menor--yer right; sounds vaguely like one of Lucas's fevered
imaginings.  Sehr amusant.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:52:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:52:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204090209.g3929Gw02878@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <200204090209.g3929Gw02878@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
> an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
> move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
> suppression, they move toward each other much faster
> than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
> I wrong?

If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
on each ion, then it is true.

If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
factor of 10.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <20020408.225739.-3503.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 14:02:40 +1000 "Hughes, Michael"
<Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au> writes:
>  
> Star Wars Name =Barst Cotor
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first 
> name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town 
> where you were born. 

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:57:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:57:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <OF1B531251.5105373F-ONCA256B95.001A7F77@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408225507.00ace4c0@mail.verizon.net>

Yes, Dear Hyphen, it's definitely Monday!!!  ;-)

At 12:51 PM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Dear Folks -
>
>Charles replied to Laning thus:
> >>We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including
> >>ironing.  Every service a hotel provides, basically.
> >
> >Even hookers?
>
>Certainly! Just the things you need to grab on to when you perform an EVA
>and the ship decides to lurch suddenly.
>
>...or did I misunderstand your point?
>
>;-)  ;-)  ;-)
>
>(It really _must_ be Monday.)
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 00:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Mon Apr  8 23:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F210WagewMS59IvqvIy000169c3@hotmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn writes:

> > That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
> > because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than
> > the AK-47 or even the M14.
>
>In that case the M14 must be considerably less accurate than the old M1
>Garand its based on. IMER the M1 is at least as accurate as the M16A1,
>assuming similar conditions.

I think the M14 and M1, as weapons platforms, probably get pretty similar 
accuracy.  After all, the M14 is clearly derived from the M1.  The M14 is 
probably more accurate solely because the 308 round is more accurate than 
30-06.  This has something to do with the case being squatter and the shape 
of the case shoulder.  The M14 over time replaced the M1 as the premier 
firearm in military matches.  The M14 is now being replaced in that role by 
the M16, which is shooting better than either of its predecessors.  These 
match rifles have a number of upgrades from standard rifles, so that 
probably does not tell you that much about issue rifles.  The Army's minimum 
standard for accuracy is pretty lousy (4 MOA IIRC), so any of these rifles 
would probably fit that bill.

But as to your basic point that an M1 gets better accuracy than an M16A1, as 
far as issue weapons I would not be too sure.  The M16's action probably 
gives better accuracy.  Also, the M1's wood stock is not so great when you 
do a lot of firing.  The M16 has much less recoil.  On the other hand, the 
M16 is lousy if you are using a sling (because the sling connects to the 
front sight which is connected directly to the barrel) and it has a very 
thin barrel.  I bet the M16A2, with the heavy barrel, does better than the 
Garand though.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 00:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon Apr  8 23:27:08 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
References: <20020407.214938.-3991.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CB28B2B.81ED4C11@attbi.com>


generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> I assumed the 3 meters was deck to deck, allowing the extra space for
> conduits, ducts, overhead lighting,, pipes, electrical stuff, grav plates
> etc.
> 
 
But, that is all engineering space..

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 00:54:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Apr  8 23:54:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408123225.02823ec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408123225.02823ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8d83e5696fb@[198.123.22.190]>

At 1:36 PM -0400 4/8/02, laning wrote:
>Leonard Erickson discusses the antihijacker issue:
>>  > If nobody else does, then
>>>  insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security
>>>  measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time
>>>  and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.
>>
>>You are considering *installation* costs. I'm talking about the costs
>>in time wasted due to "overly stringent" security getting in the way.
>>
>>Oil tankers are expensive too. So are modern freighters. And *safety*
>>gear on them that "gets in the way" is routinely bypassed by crews,
>>never mind "security" gear.
>
>I wholeheartedly agree that personnel will tend to ignore things 
>that are inconvenient.  That's partly why insurers and lenders and 
>regulators at starports will be the ones insisting on enforcement 
>through certifications and inspections.  They won't expect ship 
>crews to take care of it on their own.

While I haven't followed the thread far enough to follow all the 
issues, I think there is a point to be made here.  One can't just 
assume insurance company will force any security measure you can 
think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be unpopular and, 
unless the savings in costs is _significant_, there won't be enough 
of a change in premiums to compensate.

-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 01:09:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 00:09:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F84ekOtJI52I0jYn6hx00003845@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>Anyway, I was told by the people who
>randomly checked the ammo that reached the front-line troops that we were
>typically getting 2100 fps, and it wasn't very unusual to get under 1800
>fps.

Were you getting a lot of failures to feed?  I am just wondering if such 
weak ammo could get the action to cycle reliably.

>How is this data verified or acquired, please?  I'm just curious to get
>another data point, not being accusatory or argumentative.  :->

This is from my rifle with a chronograph, and recent surplus ammo (1999-2001 
production for LC; I think the WCC was older, like 1991).

>Muzzle velocity for government ammo for the A1 was just over 2700 fps.

While there may have been some bad ammo, I do not think the spec for the 55 
grain ammo (M193) has changed since the round was first standardized.  It 
has always required a muzzle velocity of 3250 fps, measured 15' from the 
muzzle (from TM 43-0001-27).  The new 62 grain round (M1855) is supposed to 
go 3025 fps, measured 78 feet from the muzzle.

>I don't think it's a stupid idea to take a varmint rifle and turn it
>into a combat rifle.  It does have its advantages.  But I'd feel more
>sanguine about firing a 130-, 150- or 180-grain bullet from something
>chambered for 7.62 NATO or .303 British than a 55-grain bullet.  Like
>most other things, it's a combination of trade offs because you can't
>have one thing that will give you all the attributes you wish for.

Interestingly, most modern militaries are adopting 5.56 rifles and dropping 
the bigger calibers.  This is even true of weapons like the FAL which could, 
with some work, be made as flexible as far as mounting optics and 
accessories as the M16A4 or M4.

It makes me wonder a little if the Army decided that infantry are not that 
effecive anyway, so it might as well give the boys something that shoots 
lightweight ammo.  On the other hand, maybe they think 5.56 is enough, 
because if someone has a hole in them, even a .22 hole, they will be out of 
action.  Whichever is the case, most other armies seem to be buying into it 
too.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 01:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Tue Apr  9 00:56:08 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
In-Reply-To: <200204082055.DQH04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204091051290.24305-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >Please enlighten me.  PCCS?
> Phoenix Command Combat System, 4th Edition, with all 
> supplements. A product of the now defunct Leading Edge Games.
> The advanced small arms damage tables from the game came from 
> Computerman, a model you may recall.  Now try that by hand 
> instead of by computer.

You might consider using a laptop. Couple of people known to me have held
Vietnam and the Finnish Winter War scenarios here in some rpg cons here in
Finland, and the game went very smoothly, even with players who didn't
know the system. 

Sadly, the Vietnam campaign's www pages are in Finnish, and I can't find
the Winter War pages.

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 01:59:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue Apr  9 00:59:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

A gaming system where everybody contributes rules like
linux? That's a great idea. Wish I could program.
People are still gonna argue rules and realism though.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 02:41:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue Apr  9 01:41:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Grav Kitchens (MT)
In-Reply-To: <7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEPLEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of MurfNMurf@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2002 12:41 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Grav Kitchens


 I'd like to see that design :)
 -Ken-

Your wish...

G-M90 CLASS GRAV FIELD KITCHEN
It is a well known fact that all armies march on their stomachs, and it was
with this in mind that the Terrans introduced the G-M90 grav field kitchen
to provide hot meals for troops in the field.

CraftID: Grav Field Kitchen, TL13, Cr1,075,680
Hull: 5/12, Disp=5, Config=4SL, Armour=4F,
Unloaded=20.587 tons, Loaded=36.495 tons
Power: 1/2, Fusion=12Mw, Duration=30/90
Loco: 1/2, StdGravThrust=54tons, NOE=170kph, Cruise=432kph,
Top=576kph, MaxAccel=0.48G
Commo: Radio=Regional
Sensors: PassiveEMS=VDistant, ActiveEMS=Distant,
Environment, Radiation, Headlights x2,
ActObjScan=Form, ActObjPin=Form, PasObjScan=Form,
Off/Def: Hardpoints=1
Control: Computer=0bis x2, Panel=holographic link x1,
Special=headsUp display x1,
Environ=basic env, basic ls,extend ls, grav plates,
inertial compensators
Accom: Crew=3, (Driver/Cook=1, Cooks=2), Seats=roomy x4
Other: Cargo=14.9 kliters, Fuel=14.4 kliters
1 Air Lock,
1 10kl Field Kitchen Module,
No Fuel Purification Plant,
ObjSize=Small, No Fuel Scoops,
EmLevel=Moderate
Comments: Field Kitchen Module taken from Striker 1.
Construction Time=24 weeks single, 20 weeks multiple


Antony



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 02:58:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 01:58:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020409053141.28337.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

James Ramsay wrotw :

> The thing I find strange about the movie is that
> Apone doesn't comment on Drake and Vasquez taking
> point even though they have "supposedly" disarmed
> weapons!

That's because he _knew_ they'd still have rounds.
But couldn't officially know it, if you know what I mean.

> The funny
> thing is Aliens fans have bigger debates over the
> whole "they don't show up on infrared issues" (If the
> aliens temp is low enough not to show up on infrared,
> they wouldn't be able to move fast)

This has always been simple to explain.
They didn't show up on infrared _in_that_scene_ because they
are the same temperature as the nest materiel they are hiding
in, which is not cold itself. (Look at the steam and the
location)

The person who yelled it was obviously not thinking straight at
the time or they'd have realized this fact.

At other times, no-one needs to look for them on IR because they
are in the open or in situations where IR is not the best means
of detection.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 02:59:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 01:59:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Douglas Berry wrote :
> At 11:08 AM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>
> >One word. F*#&ing officers.
> >Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
> >officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
> >enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
> >interview on the DVD).
>
> OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was
> inexperienced, that's all.

As can be seen the fact he had never done a live drop.

Note that The Company probably pulled strings to _ensure_ that an
inexperienced officer was sent, so he was more likley to accede
to the company man's wishes.

An experienced officer would likely have told the company man to
go fuck himself, and probably have shot the guy on the spot once
his treachery with Ripley and Newt was exposed.

"Treason in the face of the enemy while under martial law" or
some such charge would do, with death as a summary judgement. As
highest ranking military officer on a colony under martial law, I
suspect he would effectively have the powers of God, even if the
Company was pretty powerful back home, it would be setting a
dangerous precedent
for the Colonial Marines to have _not_ backed up their man on the
spot, and the Company could just claim their man had gone rogue.

> All he knew was the
> book, and suddenly the book went out the window
> as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

Actually, the way the marines fell apart when they were first
jumped makes me think the rest of them weren't that experienced
either, just gung ho. And with Apone down in the first few
seconds, probably the only real experience other than Ripley's
was gone.

> Win the shit came down, he covered his people,

However it was Ripley that went back to get the people, Gorman
was still dithering when she took over the APC and drove it into
the hive.

> and went back to get Vasquez, then sacrificed himself
> to slow the enemy down.  In my view, those are the
> kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.

Yeah, I haver to agree with Doug here.

If "Aliens" was an anti-Vietnam film it was the worst one ever
made.
Especially as the US was out of Vietnam well before the movie was
even started.

The person who deserves the biggest rocket up the arse in
"Aliens" (military-wise) is the pilot of the dropship.
Though she was originally told that the LZ had been secured,
she'd never make a Traveller-PC group.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 03:00:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 02:00:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8d83e5696fb@[198.123.22.190]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :
> While I haven't followed the thread far enough to
> follow all the  issues, I think there is a point
> to be made here.  One can't just assume insurance
> company will force any security measure you can
> think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be
> unpopular and, unless the savings in costs is
> _significant_, there  won't be enough
> of a change in premiums to compensate.

The insurance comany won't change it's premiums.

There will just be a clause in the contract, similar to the one
that exists with most vehicle insurance now, that if your vehicle
was not warranted at the time of the accident, or it was being
driven by an unlicensed driver, they won't pay out.

They won't even bother inspecting (or telling you about it) until
_after_ you make the claim. Then they will ask you for your
warrant and masters ticket, and if you can't produce them they
will refuse to pay out.

The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
starport will do it (for important safety and financial reasons,
would you want an unwarranted vehicle approaching an extremely
expensve space station?), there won't be any real choice except
for the captains to take the risk of not doing it and not go to
the better starports

There may even be legal requirenments in many systems.
Unwarranted ships will be told to leave immediately, or stay
stationary until they are warranted.

Given the way the Imperium operates it is unlikely the Imperium
itself will have or enforce such rules, except at the request of
member worlds if a merchant is being a bit recalcitrant, However
the Imperium may set the standards that the member worlds
legislate as they desire.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 03:45:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 02:45:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Greetings dear hearts.

Insurance companies have been in the business of ripping clients off since 
they began, and I doubt they'll change...

However, they do often state preconditions, as well as having 'weasel' 
clauses in the contract. When I took out household insurance a while back 
I had to upgrade the front door lock and they wanted me to get a burglar 
alarm until I told them I kept a Doberman pinscher :-)

So I can see there being a whole raft of terms & conditions if you want 
'3rd party, fire & theft' insurance on your starship: -

Anti-hijack program - they probably insist on you using one provided or 
one that is demonstrably at least as good.

Access control to the vessel of a given standard... they'll ask what you 
have and/or specify minimum requirements.

Qualifications required of operators (master's ticket, etc.)

Restrictions on where you are supposed to go - e.g., "Company must be 
informed prior to visits to any system classified as an Amber Zone. 
Insurance not valid for any travel in systems classified as Red Zone."

Oh dear, if I'm not careful I'll end up writing an insurance contract here 
*grin*

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 03:53:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 02:53:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name things
Message-ID: <200204090952.DRH01545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hughes, Michael" says
<snip section on making up names>

At the end of the movie "She's Having A Baby" several other 
famous types each take a turn at naming babies.  Dan Akroyd 
comes up with three names, all suitable for various campaign 
characters rather than babies.  Of course, even though I had 
watched the movie, I never noticed this until I played in a 
D&D campaign where the three arch enemies had these names - 
and they were led by the evil Nargausius.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 04:48:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue Apr  9 03:48:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name
 thin gs
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020409104751.6e9d13fd.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Hughes, Michael wrote:
> Star Wars Name =
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where
you
> were born. 

Jenry Hakar

The first name is very amusing... look at my e-mail address and see why.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 05:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue Apr  9 04:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B73@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Pitt [mailto:frankie@mundens.gen.nz]
> Sent: 09 April 2002 10:08
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?
> 
> 
> David P. Summers wrote :
> > While I haven't followed the thread far enough to
> > follow all the  issues, I think there is a point
> > to be made here.  One can't just assume insurance
> > company will force any security measure you can
> > think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be
> > unpopular and, unless the savings in costs is
> > _significant_, there  won't be enough
> > of a change in premiums to compensate.
> 
> The insurance comany won't change it's premiums.
> 
> There will just be a clause in the contract, similar to the one
> that exists with most vehicle insurance now, that if your vehicle
> was not warranted at the time of the accident, or it was being
> driven by an unlicensed driver, they won't pay out.
> 
> They won't even bother inspecting (or telling you about it) until
> _after_ you make the claim. Then they will ask you for your
> warrant and masters ticket, and if you can't produce them they
> will refuse to pay out.
> 
> The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
> required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
> may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
> starport will do it (for important safety and financial reasons,
> would you want an unwarranted vehicle approaching an extremely
> expensve space station?), there won't be any real choice except
> for the captains to take the risk of not doing it and not go to
> the better starports

Ok, how long does this Warrant last? Is it similar to the MOT in the UK
for cars? i.e. an annual check of the vehicles condition and compliance
with regulations?

If so, most crews will disable the hindering security aspects (if these
are even covered by the warranting procedure) until such time as they
are approaching annual maintenance and warranting, re-enable them just
befor inspection, then promptly disable them again after certification.

And in any case, a car can be insured against theft even if it doesn't
have steering locks, a car alarm and an immobiliser fitted, so why can't
a starship? Yes, your premium will be a tad higher, but unless theft of
starships is commonplace stringent security won't be a *requirement* of
insurance.

There is a world of difference between a safe ship and a secure one, and
all STC will be concerned with is safety.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 07:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr  9 06:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Roseberrys used HG2 ship lot #2
Message-ID: <3CB2EA6B.7D7D51B5@mail.cswnet.com>

Here are more beauties on the tarmac...
We're slashing prices; everything must go!
Discounts up to 20%
Buy now and get your choice of a Penguin, Tribble, Cabit, or Jackalope
as gift**

**not available in Solomani Rim outlets

Iye-Rethar class auxiliary tender
QT-A1011B2-000000-00007-0  Mcr320.29 std. 1000dt
       one battery          Crew=22       TL=8
Fuel=10 EP=10 Agile=1 Cargo=520 Tankage Fuel=200
Fuel Scoops and Purification plant
Crew=22 [11 officers with 11-4dt staterooms; 11 ratings-with 2dt
rooms]  Lowberths=20 100dt missle bay=1

Aries Eagle class missle boat
MB-A1022B2-700000-00007-0  Mcr940.35 std. 1000dt
one battery                Crew=18  TL=7
Fuel=100 EP=20 Agile=2 Fuel Scoops
Auxiliary 1G manuever drive=1 Auxiliary 1pn power plant=1
Auxiliary Mod 1 fib computer=1 Auxiliary bridge=1
Crew=18 [officers=8, ratings=10.] Marines=31 Frozen watch=42
4dt staterooms=2 [1 each for ship and marine commander]
2dt staterooms=49 [1 passenger possible]
100dt missle bay=1

Ether class Battleship*
BB-A1017B2-800000-00600-0  Mcr1466.54std. 1000dt
one battery                Crew=21  TL=8
Fuel=140 EP=70 Agile=1 Fuel scoops and Purification Plant
Crew=21[11 officers, 10 ratings]
4dt staterooms=11 2dt staterooms=10
Cargo=2 100dt partical accelerator bay=1
*At TL8, this is a Battleship. At TL15, this is a target craft.

Reill class patrol cruiser
PC-A1267E2-130000-00008-0  Mcr1158.284 std. 1100dt
            3         1    Crew=26 Marines=21 TL=11
            3         1
Fuel=297 [jump fuel=220, plant fuel=77] EP=77 Agile=6
1-1dt triple sandcaster turret 1-100dt missle bay
Crew=26[13 officers, 13 ratings] Marines=21
4dt staterooms=13 2dt staterooms=34 Cargo=26

Stacker class repair tug
QT-1204721-000000-20000-0 Mcr94.907 std 100dt
one battery--pulse lasers  Crew=5  TL12
Fuel=7 EP=7 Agile=4 Cargo=3.4dt Fuel scoops and purification plant
1-1dt tripple pulse laser turret
1-10dt machine shop 1-6dt electronics shop
special umbilical docking tube [.025Mcr, 2.6dt]
Crew=5[1 pilot, 1 engineer, 1 gunner/engineer, 2 engineer/maintenance].
5-2dt staterooms.

Plop designs historical series:  The CAM-117 gunship
from Spacecraft 2000-2100AD, by Stewart Cowley, pub 1978, by
Chartwell Books. ISBN 0-89009-211-7

CAM 117 gunship
aka 'the last of the dreadnaughts', 'nuclear kites'
BG-A405AB2-300000-40602-0 Mcr763.09 std. 1900dt
                  1 1 7    Crew=45  TL=8
                  1 1 7
Fuel=190 EP=190 Agility=5 Fuel scoops and Purification Plant
1-100 ton wps bay carrying "One NA 117 Particle Accelerator"
"6 various laser guns": 2-1dt triple beam laser turrets
"various nuclear missile launchers": 7-1dt triple missile racks
Crew=45[11 officers, 34 ratings] 4dt staterooms=45 Cargo=39

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 07:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 06:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
References: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <055501c1dfca$cb684280$1f9e15ac@warrior>

I recall somebody telling me that another problem with these weapons was the
lightness of the projectile ment that wind had a much more drastic effect on
accuracy...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks


> on 4/8/02 2:21 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> >
> > I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).  A
65 gram
> > projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.
>
>
> I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.
>
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 07:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Tue Apr  9 06:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <F2713iCVCd2FvOJyADg0000a126@hotmail.com>

In (Digest) Mail, Matt Bond asked...
<SNIP>
Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to eva while in space to do some 
kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking 
mechanism.  How do I get back in?
</SNIP>

Um, "Open the pod bay doors, Hal"?

Jeff.

"Will the nightmares soon give way to dreaming that she is here with me, 
here in the glow of the night..."

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 08:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 07:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here namethin gs
Message-ID: <200204091452.DRR04317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
>for first name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
>town where you were born. 
>
John Kwon, Chapel Hill

Johon Swcha
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 09:26:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue Apr  9 08:26:07 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here
 namethin gs
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B74@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
> Sent: 09 April 2002 15:53
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn
> how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here namethin gs
> 
> 
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
> >for first name
> > 
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
> >town where you were born. 
> >
> John Kwon, Chapel Hill
> 
> Johon Swcha

I think you will find it is Johkw Schwa...


Matt
(a.k.a. Matbo Pelon)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 10:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr  9 09:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <F73cFZ4RgPRCjOuF1Qp000016f2@hotmail.com>

From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>

     "And I apologize for sounding like a jerk.  I sometimes forget how 
stuff will appear when someone else reads it."

Mr. West,

     Why there's nothing to apologize for, sir!  Your post was perfectly 
alright, I didn't feel it to be anything but correct in both form and tone.
     I was upset with myself over ladling out bad information as if it were 
gospel.  I should have known better and attached an "IIRC" to the statement.

     "That is a pretty reasonable idea.  I figure they would be jumping in 
with a fleet, not just a squadron.  They probably have a couple of "probe" 
ships and multiple ships that can deliver the meson trigger."

     Yes, deployed within a fleet.  That's why the AM 8 talk of the Special 
Branch doesn't sit quite well with me.  It sort of implies that the Darrians 
can zip in with a few vessels and get the job done.
     Leaving probe delivery aside for the moment, look at the meson beam 
requirements.  If you're going to trigger the tungsten plume AND get away, 
you must do it from outside the star's 100D limit.  For a star the size of 
Sol, that's nearly 1 AU.  What sort of beam projector is going to be 
required for that kind of range?  Never mind the accuracy we'll need!
     Spinal mounts don't have that kind of range, at least I assume they 
don't.  Meson gun range is determined by the speed of the particles, you 
whip them up to some insanely relativistic speed in order to delay their 
decay.  When their slowed clocks finally tick down, they go "boom", 
hopefully near the point in space where you want them to do so.
     In the case of the Star Trigger, we'll be attempting to time that decay 
to a point ~1 AU away from our vessels.  The TL 16 Darrians were able to do 
it from Darrian and a GG moon, but the vessels carrying this equipment wil 
be very, very, VERY specialized.  I don't think you'll be able to flip a 
switch and modify a meson gun spinal mount to do the job.

     "I seriously doubt the Darrians would destroy their own worlds to 
prevent capture.  The only reason I can think of for them to intentionally 
use the Star Trigger in one of their own systems is if they believed they 
could nail a major fleet, then come back in to fix the system."

     "They would, however, without hesitation do a deep penetration to wipe 
out an enemy world.  Or several."

     I see the problem with using the Trigger against the Zhos (or 
Imperials) as one of strategic depth.  How many Triggers would take to 
dissuade a very large opponent from continuing his assault on you?  How 
thick a "belt" of Trigger flare systems would it take to stop an offensive?  
Or a war?  Let's take a Darrian-Imperial war for example, would the Darrians 
have to Trigger selected stars as far back as Corridor to keep the Imerium 
at bay?
     Of course, a single Trigger can effect more than one world.  The 
"orignal" deployment did effect worlds as far away from Darrain as Entrope 
and Winston, but at a propogation of <light speed.  It took years for 
results to travel beyond the intial system, not that the warning helped any.
     Deploying many Trigger's at once could present your attacker with an 
unimaginable catastrophe in several systems, and a multi-parsec belt of 
incrediable EM damge that will take decades to develop, but would that cause 
him to cease his assaults or would he be more likely to visit genocide upon 
you and yours?

     "I imagine the Darrians would be pragmatic enough to have a mass 
"suicide" to keep the secret.  I figure some of those in the "suicide" 
really did commit real suicide after making sure the "suicides" took place."

     Omigosh!  Someone who can think nearly as "evilly" as me!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 10:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 09:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B73@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409115948.027e20f0@pop.wizard.net>

Matt Bond:
>Ok, how long does this Warrant last? Is it similar to the MOT in the UK
>for cars? i.e. an annual check of the vehicles condition and compliance
>with regulations?
>
>If so, most crews will disable the hindering security aspects (if these
>are even covered by the warranting procedure) until such time as they
>are approaching annual maintenance and warranting, re-enable them just
>befor inspection, then promptly disable them again after certification.

I think there will be annual inspections at the time of annual maintenance, 
and also inspections at every port that is Class A or B and probably C.

Not every safety feature will be vigorously disabled by crews.  The locks 
between engineering and passenger spaces are quite convenient.  They keep 
passengers from turning up in annoying places and bothering you.  And all 
the crewman has to do is keep their keycard in their pocket and key in four 
numbers on the crypto pad to pass through the lock.  The boat pilot will 
similarly prefer locks that keep wandering crew or passengers from visiting 
"his" boat just out of curiosity and desire for more elbow room.  In less 
normal situations, access to the ship's boats will become universal (for 
abandon ship situations) or more difficult (for hijacking situations).  The 
chief features of the antihijacking security will be to prevent 
unauthorized personnel from gaining access to engineering and other 
crew-only spaces like the bridge, and to prevent unauthorized personnel 
from using control stations.

Electronic log files will be kept on every passage through a hatchway or 
use of a control station.  When visiting better ports, copies of those log 
files will be beamed to whoever keeps such records.  If locks are disabled, 
no event will be logged each time the hatch or control station is used, and 
it will be pretty obvious as soon as someone inspects the logs.

Also, if locks or other measures are disabled, then the insurance 
investigator will be doing her best to elicit confessions or accusations 
from each individual member of the crew.  The crewman who disables a lock, 
and the ship's officer who lets it remain disabled will have to think twice 
about whether they really want personal legal responsibility for the loss 
of the ship that's being investigated.  Their employment contracts have 
explicit language designed to ensure that a crewman or officer who is 
culpable in a loss is subject to heavy, heavy penalties.

The risk just won't be worth taking, especially since the chief benefit of 
disabling locks is not having to punch in four numbers each time the 
individual passes through a hatchway between where they spend most of their 
work day and where they rarely venture anyway.  All it takes is one or two 
honest crewmen to decide to turn them in and they are in big, big trouble.

The level of personal inconvenience to crew and officers shouldn't be 
overrated.  Nor should the level of security most people are willing to put 
up with.  I don't know about other major U.S. cities, but here in the 
Washington area most places of employment make people go past security to 
enter and exit their building, there are roving security guards, all 
packages are subject to inspection, people have to physically log in and 
out of the building outside of normal work hours, and there are frequently 
a few doors within the company's area that are also secure (usually they 
admit only personnel whose magnetically coded employee ID badge is on the 
authorized list in a central computer).  The main everyday features of 
starship security will not be any more annoying than that.  Getting caught 
violating ship's security will be dramatically more undesirable than 
violating office security normally is.


>And in any case, a car can be insured against theft even if it doesn't
>have steering locks, a car alarm and an immobiliser fitted, so why can't
>a starship? Yes, your premium will be a tad higher, but unless theft of
>starships is commonplace stringent security won't be a *requirement* of
>insurance.

You mean unless theft of starships is expensive to the insurance 
company.  Since the insurer tends to be heavily, heavily invested at all 
times in order to maximize profits, having to pay out a mere Cr40,000,000 
will be a major inconvenience and probably affect that quarter's bottom 
line.  Rate schedules will reflect this.

Theft insurance riders for car insurance are usually relatively low to 
begin with, so the difference between $8/month and $14/month may not 
motivate many people to take the extra measures you mention.  Which 
measures are over and above the door locks and steering lock that are 
operated by your car keys.  But rates go up significantly or even 
dramatically when you have a very expensive car, a car model that is very 
popular among thieves, or are within an easy drive of the Mexican border 
(for those of us in the States).  Even if the theft insurance is a very 
small percentage of the ship's value, it will be a very large amount of 
ship's expense each month.  And even more troublesome in Imperial border 
regions near places like the Vargr Extents or systems not belonging to any 
organized empire.

A fundamental principle of property insurance is to reimburse the insured 
100% of the value of their loss.  If the insured has nothing to lose then 
loss claims become incredibly frequent.  If the insured has to carry a 
signicant portion of the loss of a spaceship, you can bet that ships' 
owners will go to some trouble to make sure it never happens to them.

(Thus, a good bounty hunter scenario for recovering stolen ships would be a 
ship's owner who has incurred a loss and already been reimbursed the 90% of 
fair market value that's as much as she'll ever get hires bounty hunters to 
recover the ship.  Payment will be to split all profits from selling the 
recovered ship, after first making up the 10% that wasn't insured and then 
covering all expenses incurred.  If the ship can still be sold for its 
original fair market value, that's a huge profit.)


>There is a world of difference between a safe ship and a secure one, and
>all STC will be concerned with is safety.

Not sure who STC is.  Starport Authorities and local governments will be 
concerned that terrorists or wackos don't hijack a ship and crash it into 
something (the high port, the duke's residence, the financial district of 
the most important city) either intentionally or through ineptness.  That's 
part of safety.  Another part of safety is ensuring the ship is kept in 
good operating order and run in a responsible manner, and security logs 
will be helpful in determining that (are watches being stood?  are 
equipment inspections being kept up with?  do unauthorized personnel get 
access to equipment or controls?).  Lenders and insurers will be concerned 
to prevent ship loss from the investment point of view.  Sector and 
subsector dukes may have additional concerns, which might be felt through 
increased Starport Authority regulations, or through influencing local 
governments to implement other regulations.

I imagine that ship owners may put a clause in crew employment contracts 
that actually penalizes crewmen X months of salary if the ship is 
stolen.  All the crew and officers, not just whoever is found 
culpable.  The ship owners are motivated to prevent theft because of 
financial incentive.  They'll seek to put crew and officers in the same 
position.

(Hmm, one racket would be owner and crew cooperating to make the ship seem 
to be stolen, get their 80% or 90% from the insurance company, then the 
crew goes off as bounty hunters and "recovers" the ship from the "thieves", 
they sell the ship for nearly it's fair market value, and they've just made 
a profit of circa 80% of the value of a ship.  This will be an easy racket 
unless law enforcement and insurers are doing thorough jobs at every step 
of the way.  And even then it will still occasionally happen.)

I'm going to file this email separately for its adventure seeds and routine 
starship operations information.  Thank you for getting me to write it.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 11:19:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 10:19:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F210WagewMS59IvqvIy000169c3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409130304.027d16f0@pop.wizard.net>

Sam D on comparative accuracies between different military rifles:
>But as to your basic point that an M1 gets better accuracy than an M16A1, 
>as far as issue weapons I would not be too sure.  The M16's action 
>probably gives better accuracy.  Also, the M1's wood stock is not so great 
>when you do a lot of firing.  The M16 has much less recoil.  On the other 
>hand, the M16 is lousy if you are using a sling (because the sling 
>connects to the front sight which is connected directly to the barrel) and 
>it has a very thin barrel.  I bet the M16A2, with the heavy barrel, does 
>better than the Garand though.

I'd be very surprised if the M-16 shoots better on the 800-yard or -meter 
line (800 is not part of normal rifle qual, just competitions).  Even the 
M-16A2, with slightly heavier barrel, much better twist to the rifling for 
long-range accuracy, and slightly different load should be poorer than the 
M-14.  Oh, and let's not forget the A2's butt being three-eighths of an 
inch longer than the A1.  Skilled shooters can fire the 14 from the 1,000 
and that's something that's pretty ridiculous with the 16.  Not having 
fired the M-14, I can't speak to things like the furniture or the sight 
arrangement.  I imagine differences between the sight designs can make a 
pretty big difference to performance on the range.

I understand that current M-16s in U.S. service have these (IMHO 
ridiculous) three-round-burst limiters.  Which makes the trigger action a 
little bit different between first, second, and third shots of each 
burst.  The range coaches who I talked to about it said they were advising 
people to hand load each round during slow fire.  In between each round 
they would dry fire the weapon twice.  That way, you were always at the 
same point in the three-round sequence when you actually fired a 
round.  The one time I qualified with the A2 instead of A1, I forgot about 
that little routine.  The A2 still improved my score by about 5 points.  I 
also did a full course of fire not for qualification with the A2 and saw my 
score jump up about the same.  Although, come to think of it, I was less 
than satisfied with my groups from the 500-yard line.  Doh.  Only took 
fifteen years to figure that one out.  :->

ObTrav.  Something the referee in my current PBEM game does do.  Until a 
character has spent time on a range "sighting in" aka "zeroing" a new 
weapon, she should get accuracy penalties when using it, although the 
penalty should be neglible at short range.  A skilled character who takes 
several hours to sight in may be eligible for an accuracy bonus.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 11:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 10:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F84ekOtJI52I0jYn6hx00003845@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409132133.027d0ec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 07:08 AM 4/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>laning writes:
>
>>Anyway, I was told by the people who
>>randomly checked the ammo that reached the front-line troops that we were
>>typically getting 2100 fps, and it wasn't very unusual to get under 1800
>>fps.
>
>Were you getting a lot of failures to feed?  I am just wondering if such 
>weak ammo could get the action to cycle reliably.

Nope.  Well, define 'a lot'.  I've had them occur on the rifle range.  Less 
than say five(?) times.  It was a lot of years ago now to be trying to 
remember this.


>>How is this data verified or acquired, please?  I'm just curious to get
>>another data point, not being accusatory or argumentative.  :->
>
>This is from my rifle with a chronograph, and recent surplus ammo 
>(1999-2001 production for LC; I think the WCC was older, like 1991).
>
>>Muzzle velocity for government ammo for the A1 was just over 2700 fps.
>
>While there may have been some bad ammo, I do not think the spec for the 
>55 grain ammo (M193) has changed since the round was first 
>standardized.  It has always required a muzzle velocity of 3250 fps, 
>measured 15' from the muzzle (from TM 43-0001-27).  The new 62 grain round 
>(M1855) is supposed to go 3025 fps, measured 78 feet from the muzzle.

That 2700 figure was what our manuals from boot camp taught us and was a 
very frequent question during inspections in boot camp and afterwards.  I 
want to 2,710 but I still can't remember the precise figure.  And yeah, my 
1980 edition of 'Cartridges of the World' thinks M193 ammo had a 3,250 
muzzle velocity also.  Interesting that the Marine Corps _officially_ 
taught us it was a much lower number.  One explanation is that Marine Corps 
was continuing to be forced to accept ammo lots that it considered 
substandard at 2,710 while the contractor continued to insist he was 
delivering 3,250 and the dispute was dragging on during my tenure in the Corps.

I think when the manufacturer sells 'surplus' ammo they know precisely 
whether a shipment will be delivered to commercial sellers or to the 
government.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.


>Interestingly, most modern militaries are adopting 5.56 rifles and 
>dropping the bigger calibers.  This is even true of weapons like the FAL 
>which could, with some work, be made as flexible as far as mounting optics 
>and accessories as the M16A4 or M4.
>
>It makes me wonder a little if the Army decided that infantry are not that 
>effecive anyway, so it might as well give the boys something that shoots 
>lightweight ammo.  On the other hand, maybe they think 5.56 is enough, 
>because if someone has a hole in them, even a .22 hole, they will be out 
>of action.  Whichever is the case, most other armies seem to be buying 
>into it too.

Yes, both of your suggestions make a lot of sense in light of what the 
popular wisdom is at the government think tanks that largely influence 
these decisions.  "Aimed fire is no more effective than unaimed fire in 
battlefield situations."  and "An army loses more than three soldiers from 
action each time someone is wounded, in order to medevac and care for that 
wounded soldier."

In fact, with that last popular nugget of wisdom, one can easily imagine 
the paper pushers deciding it's _better_ to have a rifle that results in 
more wounds than kills, and stopping power isn't even part of the 
decision.  It's a Dilbert world.

My ObTrav here is some planetary militaries opting for patently 
underpowered weapons on the theory that they should always be trying to 
inflict a wound and never a kill.  Take it near a ridiculous 
extreme.  Perhaps the player characters are in a mercenary unit that goes 
up against them, and after getting some battle experience against them, can 
only muse wonderingly and pity the poor bastards they're fighting 
against.  Or the player characters are in a city that is under attack by 
irregular forces much like the Boers from 1902 (people grew up with 
shooting and take weapon deadliness very seriously).  They feel secure 
enough, since the planetary government forces defending the city vastly 
outnumber the irregular and have much more sophisticated equipment 
besides.  Things grow tense as the irregulars' siege of the city gets 
tighter and tighter and the fighting starts coming in earshot of their 
hotel.  No vehicles, aircraft, or spacecraft are entering or leaving the 
city.  Rumors of war crimes being committed by ever more angry irregulars 
are growing.  (They're angry because their friends and family often they 
themselves are getting wounded.  They're _not_ spending three guys to take 
care of one wounded guy, because they're irregulars and don't have that 
kind of luxury.)

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 11:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Apr  9 10:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <200204091244.AA102170826@caddocourt.com>

>     Why there's nothing to apologize for, sir!  Your post was perfectly 
>alright, I didn't feel it to be anything but correct in both form and tone.

Oh good!  Thank you for clearing that up.

[ big snip ]
>     "They would, however, without hesitation do a deep penetration to wipe 
>out an enemy world.  Or several."
>
>     I see the problem with using the Trigger against the Zhos (or 
>Imperials) as one of strategic depth.  How many Triggers would take to 
>dissuade a very large opponent from continuing his assault on you?
> ... , but would that cause 
>him to cease his assaults or would he be more likely to visit genocide upon 
>you and yours?

I don't think the Darrians would be using the Star Trigger against the
Zhodani or the Imperium unless they already knew they were dead.  (Or
at least believed they were.)  As you mentioned before, there is nothing
it can do in its operation that will let the Darrians win such a war.

The whole point with the Zhodani (and, by extension, the Imperium) is
that its presence will prevent the war from ever starting in the first
place.  If you know that conquering the Darrians will be that expensive
(and the ramifications will continue to happen for years to come), you
have to really want the Darrians dead.  In other words, it escalates
the price of victory the Zhodani or Imperium would have to pay to
conquer the Darrians.  It can never win the war once it has started.

Of course, the other "fun" use of the Star Trigger is to intimidate
small (single system) governments like Nonym and (before they were an
Imperial client state) Garoo.

[ this is out of context, but ...]
>...  It took years for 
>results to travel beyond the intial system, not that the warning helped any.

The problem for the Darrians with the Maghiz was that there was only a
single shipyard and a single industrial base for the entire Confederation:
Darrian.  Once it was destroyed, the colonies had no way to get new ships
or technological goods.  They were all stuck.

The Imperial or Zhodani worlds would not be so hard hit since there would
always be other worlds to get stuff from.  They would be able to recover
in a much more quickly.

>     "I imagine the Darrians would be pragmatic enough to have a mass 
>"suicide" to keep the secret.  I figure some of those in the "suicide" 
>really did commit real suicide after making sure the "suicides" took place."
>
>     Omigosh!  Someone who can think nearly as "evilly" as me!

While I do probably fit that description, in this case I would call this
"evil", so much as purely pragmatic.

Another way to look at it is that the scientists literal bet their lives 
that they could create the Star Trigger.  They lost the bet and paid the
price, but at least had a measure of success.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 12:58 AM 4/9/02 -0700, you wrote:

>A gaming system where everybody contributes rules like
>linux? That's a great idea. Wish I could program.
>People are still gonna argue rules and realism though.

The latest edition of D&D made some hype about going to this back when it 
was announced and the public buzz about Linux was at its peak.  I don't 
really follow D&D and don't know where that stands now.

That suggestion does not have to have anything to do with programming the 
rules for computers.  Just writing game rules.  There needs to be a 
centralized repository for distributing the rules.  Web site, news group, 
mailing list.  The contributors to that forum need to early on establish 
some protocols that, if followed, keep contributors writing rule sections 
that are compatibility with the other rule sections.

For example, weapon design rules have to produce results within parameters 
that can be used any combat rules which in turn have to produce results 
that can be used with any rules describing character attributes, in terms 
of taking wounds and in terms of determining hits and damage.

There are some problems that make such a project very different from 
open-source programming of a Unix variant.

With programming, the contributions have to at least compile, and not crash 
when launched.  This filters out a lot underqualified contributors right 
there.  No such built-in logic checks preventing junk contributions of game 
rules.

There are a _lot_ more people who think they can design a game than there 
are people who think they can write a computer program.  Professional game 
designers are aware of this phenomenon and are also aware that a huge 
number of self proclaimed game designers don't have the least concept of 
some important fundamentals.

These first two things suggest that a huge percentage of junk 
contributions.  Much more so than with Linux.

Having a much larger population of people who think they can write rules 
could lead to vast numbers of rule contributions.  The sheer number can be 
a problem.  OTOH, if only a small percentage of contributions are good then 
it's a good thing there are so many contributions.  :->

There is less motivation for people to write rule contributions.  A 
successful Linux contribution is more likely to be personally gratifying, 
and is an extremely helpful thing to have on your resume and a useful 
professional growth experience in a well-paid profession.  A game rules 
contribution isn't very helpful to most persons' careers, and is arguably 
less gratifying in terms of fame or the satisfaction of being published.

The market for (war and roleplaying) games is orders of magnitude smaller 
than the market for computer software.

Establishing even the basic intent of the protocols is a puzzling 
task.  Linux had the advantage of imitating an established and mature 
operating system at its start.  Is the open source roleplaying game going 
to be highly cinematic and intended to keep player characters alive but 
slaughter....never mind.  I guess if the protocol cleverly defines how 
modules plug into each other, then you can let players mix and match 
modules themselves.

Bug reporting of Linux contributions can be automated and reports sent via 
the Internet easily.  Bug reporting of game designs is much more problematical.

That's what comes to mind.

It's got me to thinking about how to organize it though.  If I had more 
energy for the project, I'd go advertise in various Internet locations, 
magazines, game shops, and game conventions, set up the Web site and 
mailing list, etc.  Oh yeah, and if I had the money for those thing.  If 
enough people start participating, it might be a worthwhile experiment.

Not sure if I remember the original Linus Thorvald's post accurately enough 
to make this paraphrase work.  "Remember the good old days when real men 
wrote their own game rules?..."

One last thing.  I have some hesitation about whether it's a good idea to 
even trying to make open source game design work.  If it works, it isn't 
like stealing market share from Bill Gates.  It's making it impossible for 
guys like Loren Wiseman to earn a living in the industry.  We won't have 
any full time RPG designers anymore.  Which probably means a lot of 
important and good contributions to RPGs will never take place.  As a 
concept, open source game design seems like a desirable thing for gaming if 
it can be made to work.  The devil is in the details.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here
 name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <20020408234503.A15920@4dv.net>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
 <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409141814.027d2810@pop.wizard.net>

> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> > were born.

Lanpo Lannap.  I do not want to be called Lanpo.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Penguin Sighting
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409142253.027d5410@pop3.isicns.com>

'Shackleton' is being run in two parts on A&E repeatedly from this past 
weekend through April 19th.  Originally from Channel 4 in the U.K.

Numerous penguin sightings and references!

Including the classic when the photographer and Shackleton (played by 
Brannagh), are sorting through all their photographic negatives, made of glass.

Shackleton, in tired complaint:  "_Not_ another penguin."  Smash.

It even opens with a genuine, 100% pure, certified penguin joke, albeit in 
German and with no subtitles.  Most of us will have to pay close attention 
to eke out enough meaning to understand it.

Actual ObTravs should be abundantly obvious while viewing the show.  Chock 
full of adventure seeds and NPCs.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:17:35PM -0400
References: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:17:35PM -0400, laning wrote:
>
> I have some hesitation about whether it's a good idea to even trying
> to make open source game design work.  If it works, it isn't like
> stealing market share from Bill Gates.  It's making it impossible
> for guys like Loren Wiseman to earn a living in the industry.  We
> won't have any full time RPG designers anymore.  Which probably
> means a lot of important and good contributions to RPGs will never
> take place.

Open source and free software aren't about winning market share from
Bill Gates--they're about doing the right thing (or rather, doing a
more right thing).  I don't think that anyone will argue that it's
more moral to give away than the sell; in fact, I can think of few
schools of thought other than Objectivism which would so argue.  It's
not wrong to charge for one's labour (how else could one eat?)--but it
is better to give it away.

No-one should ever be forced to give away his labour--that would be
slavery.  But OTOH it must be recognised that if _I_ give mine away,
then _you_ will have a hard time selling yours.  But that is, to be
quite honest, your problem.


And a _lot_ of important and free contributions to RPGs took place
back in the old net days--ever read the Net.Books
<http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/byzantium/55/index2.htm#bluetroll>?
The vast majority were written by players for players.

In the software world, we've moved from proprietary everything, to
open standards for proprietary components on top of proprietary
platforms (POSIX when it first came about) to open standards for open
components on top of proprietary platforms (the GNU tools on top of
POSIX) to open standards for open components on top of open platforms
(Linux and *BSD).


Games are already fairly open.  Despite certain companies' wishful
thinking, a game is already an open standard, in that anyone can
create materials compatible with it.  That's a lot of what we're doing
here on the TML, isn't it?  And yet no-one claims that we are stealing
from Messrs. Miller or Wiseman, or that they are unable to make a
living.

Steffan O'Sullivan seems to have done well with FUDGE, a system which
is truly free (in the sense of freedom), yet which is also sold.
There's a lot of value added to a book vs. a computer file--much more
than that added to software by boxing it up vs. putting it online.

Even SJ Games have a free summary of the most basic of GURPS rules
available.  I imagine that sales of GURPS Basic Set are rather dwarfed
by sales of the myriads of supplements they put out.  And how many of
us would really stop buying RPGs just because they might be available
online?

Heck, I just spent more than $200 for HackMaster's Player's Guide,
DM's Guide and Vols. 1-VII of the Hacklopaedia, despite the fact that
I'll never play it in my life.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
While I was at University in Lancaster, the International Committee of
the Red Cross was having a campaign to stop other organisations using
the name 'red cross' and served a 'cease and desist' notice on the Red
Cross Inn in Lancaster.  The innkeeper turned round and pointed out that
the Red Cross Inn (founded, like most other pubs of the same name, by a
returning crusader) had been trading under that name for more than seven
hundred and fifty years, and politely asked how long they'd been using
it.  The ICRC retired hurt.                             --Simon Brooke

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:53:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:53:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3623@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Just read MJ Dougherty's short story at:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/Fiction/Dougherty/secrets.html

I can just SEE this as a short film :)  Could be done with a very moderate
budget, especially if Harry got changed to a human character instead of
Vargr.  Granted, that's half the fun of the piece, but it'd be a lot easier
& cheaper to do if he were human.

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Geoff @ MotionBlur)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3623@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOIEELCHAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>

Animate it =)

Geoff McDonald
President
MotionBlur Animation Ltd.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of DeGraff, Jesse
> Sent: April 9, 2002 11:52 AM
> To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
> Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
>
>
> Just read MJ Dougherty's short story at:
> http://www.travellerrpg.com/Fiction/Dougherty/secrets.html
>
> I can just SEE this as a short film :)  Could be done with a very moderate
> budget, especially if Harry got changed to a human character instead of
> Vargr.  Granted, that's half the fun of the piece, but it'd be a
> lot easier
> & cheaper to do if he were human.
>
> Jesse
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3624@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

You're the professional animator, I just do stills ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff @ MotionBlur [mailto:mcdonald@motionblur.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:55 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Oh dear....


Animate it =)

Geoff McDonald
President
MotionBlur Animation Ltd.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 09, 2002 03:51:13 PM
Message-ID: <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
> > an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
> > move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
> > suppression, they move toward each other much faster
> > than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
> > I wrong?
> 
> If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
> on each ion, then it is true.
> 
> If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
> to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
> factor of 10.

Under the premise of the inertial suppression idea, inertia
is defined as the electromagnetic drag caused by mass accellerating
through the zero point field (essentially due to subatomic interactions
with virtual photons). So, if this were the case, it might hold true
that the EM force would be reduced by inertial suppression, at least if
one assumes that EM forces are transferred via virtual photons, sort of
like the way waves on the ocean are transferred through the water
molecules making up the waves (you physicists on the list can probably
laugh at this statement... I'm really showing my ignorance here). Anyway,
off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to make this
work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the square-root of the
inertial suppression factor. If we make that handwave, which is
certainly a god-being-nice type to rule to make, then I'd imagine
that we've got gravity & EM both covered. However, if anyone can
provide a counterexample, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Also, there's still the weak and strong forces to think about. Since
weak is purportedly linked to EM, one would expect some sort of similar
square-root drop off. As for the strong force, I have no idea. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F107T456UnHAaaz7EjQ000157ce@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>I'd be very surprised if the M-16 shoots better on the 800-yard or -meter
>line (800 is not part of normal rifle qual, just competitions).>Even the
>M-16A2, with slightly heavier barrel, much better twist to the rifling for
>long-range accuracy, and slightly different load should be poorer than the
>M-14.

As the distance gets longer, wind has its effect on the little 5.56 much 
more than the 7.62.  But the usual distances in match competitions is 200, 
300 and 600 yards, at which distances the M16 is supreme.  It is possible to 
get superior accuracy at even longer ranges with the M16, but they have to 
use very heavy bullets (80 grains+) that will not fit in the M16 mags.  As 
you talked about in your post, the M16 becomes a single shot.  With this 
proviso, the M16 is beating the M14 at all ranges now in competitions.  I 
think they are even getting good results at 1,000 yards, but these are 
obviously not issue weapons.

Anyway, when we are talking 1,000 yards we are really talking about ranges 
for snipers, not infantry.

>Skilled shooters can fire the 14 from the 1,000
>and that's something that's pretty ridiculous with the 16.

Certainly ridiculous for me.  An M14 would have to be pretty tweaked to 
consistantly make shots like that, and you would need optics.  It is a very 
poor platform for optics and the M14 needs constant maintanence to keep 
excellent accuracy.  The M16, on the other hand, once accurized needs little 
upkeep and it is a great platform for optics.  But you are certainly right 
that it is not going to bowling them over at 1,000 yards.

>I understand that current M-16s in U.S. service have these (IMHO
>ridiculous) three-round-burst limiters.  Which makes the trigger action a
>little bit different between first, second, and third shots of each
>burst.

The trigger pull is the same for every shot in semi-auto.  These "match" 
rifles I am talking about will usually have a special double stage trigger 
installed.  Otherwise, the standard M16 trigger, like most military 
triggers, is really too heavy for serious accuracy.

I always thought it was interesting in Striker that they have a 7mm assault 
rifle (which seems to be a FAL/G3/M14 type weapon), a 5mm assault rifle 
(M16), and then skip entirely the most popular assault rifle of all time 
(AK-47).  What are all of the guerillas supposed to be armed with?

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl quotes me and replies:
>On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:17:35PM -0400, laning wrote:
> >
> > I have some hesitation about whether it's a good idea to even trying
> > to make open source game design work.  If it works, it isn't like
> > stealing market share from Bill Gates.  It's making it impossible
> > for guys like Loren Wiseman to earn a living in the industry.  We
> > won't have any full time RPG designers anymore.  Which probably
> > means a lot of important and good contributions to RPGs will never
> > take place.
>
>Open source and free software aren't about winning market share from
>Bill Gates--they're about doing the right thing (or rather, doing a
>more right thing).  I don't think that anyone will argue that it's
>more moral to give away than the sell; in fact, I can think of few
>schools of thought other than Objectivism which would so argue.  It's
>not wrong to charge for one's labour (how else could one eat?)--but it
>is better to give it away.
>
>No-one should ever be forced to give away his labour--that would be
>slavery.  But OTOH it must be recognised that if _I_ give mine away,
>then _you_ will have a hard time selling yours.  But that is, to be
>quite honest, your problem.

I had no wish to get into philosophical theory.  I do wish to point out who 
is affected by an effort that results in taking market share from 
professional game designers.  Regardless of their original intent.  It will 
be the folks like Loren who live on a shoestring instead of folks like Bill 
Gates who already has more money than he has a purpose for.  I believe that 
a lot of people new to the situation rather expect that gaming companies 
are big faceless corporations with deep pockets, when really they are just 
the opposite.

I do not adopt that attitude of "Tough luck, Mac" if I do something for my 
own amusement (gaming as a hobby) that puts good and decent people of 
personal acquaintance (Loren) out on the street.  I don't know if your "But 
that is...your problem" remark was intended to sound quite as callous as it 
came across to me in print, but that's just me, and as you say that's my 
problem.  I'm not losing any sleep over it.  My issue is this.  If people 
are going to make a choice with profound consequences, then they should be 
aware of what those consequences are.  A successful effort to publish 
open-source game designs will kill an industry that is fairly marginal by 
replacing it with people who do it for a hobby.  I'd wager a lot of 
would-be participants in open-source gaming are not aware of that 
consequence prior to someone pointing it out.



>And a _lot_ of important and free contributions to RPGs took place
>back in the old net days--ever read the Net.Books
><http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/byzantium/55/index2.htm#bluetroll>?
>The vast majority were written by players for players.

I was not aware of that, and will look at the link later today, thanks.



>Games are already fairly open.  Despite certain companies' wishful
>thinking, a game is already an open standard, in that anyone can
>create materials compatible with it.  That's a lot of what we're doing
>here on the TML, isn't it?  And yet no-one claims that we are stealing
>from Messrs. Miller or Wiseman, or that they are unable to make a
>living.

Very good point.  To be fair, there are times we've had pretty heated IP 
debates about whether something is being stolen from them.  And the harm it 
does to their ability to make a living usually gets mentioned in those 
debates.  And the people who were breaking the law haven't always ceased 
nor desisted.


>Steffan O'Sullivan seems to have done well with FUDGE, a system which
>is truly free (in the sense of freedom), yet which is also sold.
>There's a lot of value added to a book vs. a computer file--much more
>than that added to software by boxing it up vs. putting it online.

Good point about added value.  I have no idea whether Steffan O'Sullivan is 
making a living at it or not.  I don't hear him complaining, but that 
doesn't mean a thing, since where I would go to notice such a complaint.

>Even SJ Games have a free summary of the most basic of GURPS rules
>available.  I imagine that sales of GURPS Basic Set are rather dwarfed
>by sales of the myriads of supplements they put out.  And how many of
>us would really stop buying RPGs just because they might be available
>online?
They didn't give it away until after they'd established the market for 
GURPS and had said myriads of supplements.

I can envision a real world way of developing RPG open source designs that 
will compete directly with _all_ RPG publications, and would evolve over 
time to be superior to them in most instances.  Online availability and 
printing and binding in your home is still a novelty and is far from 
reaching full 'market penetration'.  How many of us would actually pay for 
a $20 rule book that we can print and bind for less than a tenth of 
that?  A few yes, but the majority would take the cheaper option.

....leading to electronic publishing discussions but I don't know if that's 
relevant to this discussion or not.


>Heck, I just spent more than $200 for HackMaster's Player's Guide,
>DM's Guide and Vols. 1-VII of the Hacklopaedia, despite the fact that
>I'll never play it in my life.
You display a trait common in our hobby, but very few of us spend like 
that.  I suspect you have far more disposable income than most gamers.  And 
I don't suppose those volumes were available online.

In summary, you raise excellent points that do make a difference.  But if 
your intent is prove open-source RPG design is a stillborn idea, I don't 
think you've chosen compelling arguments.  If your intent was to explode my 
own points as invalid, you haven't convinced me that they are.

I think the real difficulties of moving the idea forward is lack of 
concentrated energy among people who have the right skills.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:48:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:48:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F51yTB0lrvpLA0sOVtS000096e4@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>I think when the manufacturer sells 'surplus' ammo they know precisely
>whether a shipment will be delivered to commercial sellers or to the
>government.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The WCC I have, which is produced by Olin, was for a foreign government 
contract that never made it out of the country for some reason.  It came 
linked, with tracers.  :)

Lake City is a government owned facility that is operated by a contractor 
(currently Federal).  I don't think they are supposed to be making private 
sales of the stuff.  From what I hear, the diversion to commercial suppliers 
is being stopped by the government.  Much of it is in Federal packaging, but 
some of the older stuff is packaged in 30 round boxes with stripper clips, 
ready to be issued to the troops.

Really, you guys are shocking me with all of this talk of low velocity 5.56 
ammo.  I have never heard anybody mention this before, and I have been 
around and been interested in the weapon for a while now.  If you have or 
know of any sources for this info, I would sure like to see it.  Off list if 
you prefer.  Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409115948.027e20f0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B73@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409151639.02480008@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:01 PM 4/9/2002, laning wrote:
>[A ship owner who has] incurred a loss and been reimbursed the 90% of fair 
>market value [...] hires bounty hunters to recover the ship.  Payment will 
>be to split all profits from selling the recovered ship, after first 
>making up the 10% that wasn't insured and then covering all expenses incurred.

No; the insurance company will guard against scams of this nature by 
insisting that, if the ship is recovered after the claim is paid, it 
belongs to the insurance company and not the insured.  In this case, the 
insurance company will generally sell the ship, and if (after deducting the 
expenses related to recovering and selling it) the insurance company 
recovers more than the 90% of the fair market value that they paid for the 
claim, the extra monies are split in some way (that will vary from policy 
to policy) between the insurance company, the people who recovered the 
ship, and the original owners.

Bounty hunters can work for or with insurance companies, or for the 
owner.  If the ship can be recovered quickly, inexpensively, and with 
little damage, the  owner can recover the ship without having to make a 
claim - the only cost is the cost of the recovery fee (maybe into the 
hundreds of thousands of credits).  But, in general, the ship will not be 
so easily recovered (or once recovered, will not be in the condition it was 
when it was stolen).

So, ship owners will generally want to file a claim, and let the insurance 
company worry about recovering the ship.  Recovering and selling the ship - 
even at a fraction of it's full value represents a huge reduction in the 
insurance company's loss.  Thus, they will tend to employ bounty hunters 
and skip tracers to recover ships, and some type of fee-splitting 
arrangement that provides an incentive for the bounty hunters to recover 
the ship with as much of it's original value as possible.  This would 
probably involve a salary, retainer, or base fee for any recovery (again, 
maybe ranging into the hundreds of thousands of credits), plus a bonus if 
the ship's resale value exceeds the company's cost for the claim and recovery.

This does leave open one possible scam - the owner or crew could "steal" 
their own ship, abandon it, file an insurance claim and take their 
90%.  Once the ship is recovered, if they can re-purchase it at auction for 
less than 90% of original market value, the original owners will now own 
the ship free and clear, plus some amount of profit.  On the other hand, 
the ship may now be in need of expensive re-certification and other work to 
make it space worthy.  Not to mention the cost of increased insurance 
premiums ... and the amount of scrutiny that they will get from insurance 
and law enforcement.

>One racket would be owner and crew cooperating to make the ship seem to be 
>stolen, get their 80% or 90% from the insurance company, then the crew 
>goes off as bounty hunters and "recovers" the ship from the "thieves", 
>they sell the ship for nearly it's fair market value, and they've just 
>made a profit of circa 80% of the value of a ship.

Nope - first off, the insurance company will investigate the heck out of 
this scenario.  In the second case, the proceeds from the sale of the ship 
will go to the insurance company, and only a tiny fraction will be paid to 
the "bounty hunters".  In general, the amount they'd see from this scam 
(90% insurance payment plus 0%-2% recovery bonus) will be less than if 
they'd sold the ship outright at fair market value.

In theory, this scenario can be used to scam the bank of a ship which is 
subject to a mortgage.  The ship is "stolen" by it's own crew, the 
insurance pays the bank note off (leaving the crew ship-less and 
mortgage-less).  It is then "recovered" by the crew, who get paid a 
recovery fee or bonus by the insurance company.  This isn't nearly enough 
for a new ship (or even a down payment on one), but could still be a nice 
amount of money.  Even in this case, I'm sure the bank and insurance 
company would investigate, and may even "blackball" the captain and crew, 
so that they cannot obtain another bank mortgage on a ship easily.  It will 
probably still happen - but not often.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092000.DSB05659@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>
>As the distance gets longer, wind has its effect on the 
>little 5.56 much more than the 7.62.  But the usual 
>distances in match competitions is 200, 300 and 600 yards, 
>at which distances the M16 is supreme.  It is possible to 
>get superior accuracy at even longer ranges with the M16, 
>but they have to use very heavy bullets (80 grains+) that 
>will not fit in the M16 mags.  As you talked about in your 
>post, the M16 becomes a single shot.  With this 
>proviso, the M16 is beating the M14 at all ranges now in 
>competitions.  I think they are even getting good results at 
>1,000 yards, but these are obviously not issue weapons.
>

I've shot for fun at ranges where state police were 
practicing with their mouse guns.  I was using a Remington 
700 Police DM in .308, with a new barrel.  Past 300 yards, 
there was an incremental advantage, which really opened up at 
about 500 yards (hey, there really IS a morning glory effect).

They were not smirking afterwards.  They wanted my weapon.

>Anyway, when we are talking 1,000 yards we are really 
>talking about ranges for snipers, not infantry.
>

OK.  But how do we identify these men if the basic weapon 
can't do half the sniper's range?

>Certainly ridiculous for me.  An M14 would have to be pretty 
>tweaked to consistantly make shots like that, and you would 
>need optics.  It is a very poor platform for optics and the 
>M14 needs constant maintanence to keep excellent accuracy.  

I never had a maintenance problem with the M-21, nor were the 
optics a problem.  I would recommend not taking off the 
sights (some mounts I saw later were silver soldered to 
prevent removal).  They are not "tweaked" so much as 
specifically chosen/selected and then "gone over" to be 
properly re-bedded (glass bedding certain areas).  A lot of 
factory rifles today (bolt-actions) come with aluminum 
bedding blocks as standard, and have higher quality barrels 
than virtually any military rifle.  So many of them are 
accurate enough "out of the box" to give any semi-auto (and 
this includes a tricked out M-16) a run for its money.

Even though Remington has had its quality control problems 
over the years, I could take virtually any Sendero model out 
of the box and out range anyone with a tricked out M-16.  
Mind you, this means that I would have to set up the shooting 
situation (ambush), but if I had the ability to start the 
fight at a distance and place of my choosing, I'm probably 
going to put several people down before any of the rounds 
come anywhere near me.  At that point, they'll be shooting at 
a target not much larger than a grapefruit, with a round that 
won't penetrate a sandbag at that range (the long bodied 
match rounds are not penetrators).

I am quite sure that if I had a suppressor (not completely 
quiet, but masking the point of origin of the shooting), and 
was using the Mark V M3 10x, and had the strap-on KN-250 
night vision scope, I would probably put down as many people 
as I had rounds in the magazine if the engagement was at 
night.  And that would be at a distance of over 600 yards.  
I'm not sure that the targets (coming out of an area known 
and already spotted) would have much chance of spotting me 
with naked eye, or anything short of thermals).  Just looking 
for me would be suicidal.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:39:44PM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409141022.A18068@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:39:44PM -0400, laning wrote:
>
> >No-one should ever be forced to give away his labour--that would be
> >slavery.  But OTOH it must be recognised that if _I_ give mine away,
> >then _you_ will have a hard time selling yours.  But that is, to be
> >quite honest, your problem.
> 
> I believe that a lot of people new to the situation rather expect
> that gaming companies are big faceless corporations with deep
> pockets, when really they are just the opposite.

No argument there--I've heard the stories.  Heck, a quick look through
con photos in any gaming mag proves the point:-)

But that doesn't matter.  Free software is not about sticking it to
Bill Gates; it's about free software.  Gaming is not about sticking to
to gaming companies (they're generally good people); it's about
gaming.

> I don't know if your "But that is...your problem" remark was
> intended to sound quite as callous as it came across to me in print,
> but that's just me, and as you say that's my problem.

I didn't mean it to sound callous, more as a statement of fact.  What
I meant is that if I produce work (which is my right) and I free it
(which is my right), then someone who produces work (which is his
right) and keeps it proprietary (which is also his right) will have to
do a _much_ better job than I do in order to compete.

I don't feel bad about that, any more than I would if I produced work
and simply sold it for less than the other guy.  I actually feel
_less_ bad, because I have given my work to the world, to do with as
it pleases.

Should Steve Jackson feel bad that he has made it very difficult for
another universal RPG system to be produced?  Of course not.  Should
Marc Miller feel bad that he has upped the ante for science fiction
roleplaying?  Certainly not!  Should Loren Wiseman feel bad that he
has set an incredible precedent for GURPS Traveller supplements?
Perish the thought.  Each has done a wonderful job, and each has made
it harder for another to succeed (a new universal RPG must be better
than GURPs; a new sci-fi RPG must have a better setting the the Third
Imperium; a new series of Traveller supplements must be better than
the GURPS line; these are all tall orders).

Should any of the above feel bad that their own brilliant success has
made it more difficult for me to follow in their footsteps?  No.
Should I be upset?  No.

So what's the difference between them and me?  Don't say that my own
IP is not as precious to me as to them.  I love travlib dearly.  It's
the best work I've ever produced.

If they should not feel bad about out-competing me, why should I feel
bad about out-competing them?  If I should not feel bad that they
out-competed me, why should they feel bad if I out-compete them?

Not that I'd directly compete with any of the above.  I write
software, not supplements.  And yes, my hope is for my GPLed
Traveller-compatible software to enable a lot of other programmers to
write more Traveller-compatible software.  And it doesn't bother me
that this will make it more difficult for others to profit from
proprietary Traveller-compatible software.  Why should it, any more
than it bothers Stephen King that he's made it more difficult for
other to profit from horror novels?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Distracting factors leading to traffic accidents:
  - object or person outside the car 30%
  - adjusting the radio or CD player 11%
  - dealing with another occupant in the car 11%
  - cellular phones 1.5%
     --Highway Safety Research Center at the University of North Carolina

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:13:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:13:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
Message-ID: <F67WW92A0HoXONfjxJJ00006b11@hotmail.com>

Thomas Vickers wrote:

>I don't know about that. I saw a story on the History channel about a 
>Marine
>officer in Korea I think. He made his men take bayonet practice even though
>it was outdated.  They got pinned down on patrol and ran out of ammo.  THe
>officer led a successful bayonet charge up a hill which wiped out the North
>Koreans. That sounds a bit drastic, but useful.

I remember thinking one time when I was staring down the barrel of a .45, 
"thank God he does not have a knife."  Getting penetrated by a knife is 
somehow terrifying, and it also gives the wielder credible non-lethal 
options.  I think there have been several instances in recent times when 
bayonet charges have routed the enemy, even if no one actually got stabbed.  
A bayonet would be vital for handling prisoners, and possibly even reluctant 
heroes.  ;)

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:23:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:23:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408135946.02824dd0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D89BAB.38054%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 11:39 AM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to
> the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300
> feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the
> government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting.

Something is way wrong.  Spec velocity for M193 55gn ball is supposed to be
3250 fps.  You're saying it 2300?!  I've got a bunch of contract stuff.
I'll try to run it through the chrony this weekend.

Found some specs for military ammo:

     "U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition require a 55
grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity of 3,250 q 40 fps from a 20
inch test barrel measured 15 feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement
from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean radius at 200
yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates to approximately three MOA).
"Statistically average" M193 ranges from 1.2 to 1.6 inches mean radius,
which is equivalent to 1.8 to 2.4 MOA. "

     "NATO specifications for SS109 (U.S. M855) Ball require a 61.7 grain
(q 1.5 grains) with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,025 fps
(q 40 fps) from a 20 inch barrel 25 meters from the muzzle. Typical
velocity 15 feet from the M16A2's muzzle is around 3,100 fps. The accuracy
requirement from a test fixture equates to a maximum of approximately four
MOA over the 100 to 600 yard range. Typical accuracy of average lots in an
M16A2 is about 2+ MOA. This round must also penetrate a nominal 10 gauge
SAE 1010 or 1020 steel test plate at a range of at least 570 meters (623
yards). "
 
> I did all my reading on this topic over a dozen years ago, but I seem to
> recall that there has been plenty of reliable material published that
> debunked the notion of the magical differences causing the 5.56 to tumble,
> etc. when no other bullets were able to achieve the same effect.  I said
> that very poorly.  What I mean is that government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam
> had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other
> assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.

All rifle bullets tumble when transiting media.  The M193 round just does it
quicker.  I direct you to several like animal and ballistic studies that
confirm this.  Try The International wound ballistics association
publications or my personal favorite "Antipersonnel Weapons" published by
SIPRI.  There are some rather high speed photographs.

It should be noted that analysis of casualties in the Vietnam war showed the
5.56x45mm to be 11% more likely to produce a casualty (lethal) than
7.62x51mm.  Of course the NVA and VC may have just dragged off all the
bodies with 7.62 holes in them to confise us poor Americans.

> Including poorer 
> accuracy.  

What?!  The M-16 has consistently proved to have a smaller MOA than the M-14
since adoption and up to the present day.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
Message-ID: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Look at Shellshock.  It's just a combat system, but 
it's "free".  The idea is to get everyone to use it, and then 
sell them ancillary product.  In their case, selling "instant 
terrain", etc.

You would still need to defend the intellectual property 
rights of the "free" part of the game, or some game company 
would run off with it.

The core part of GURPS might as well be "free".  I think that 
SJ Games makes most of their money off of all of those 
supplements.  And you have to keep making new supplements in 
order to make money.  It's not an industry with a lot of 
margin in it, either.  Software is expensive to create, more 
so than any role-playing game.  We really should pay someone 
like Loren or Doug a LOT more money for their work.  Imagine 
if Loren was paid as much to write these things as I am paid 
to design software architectures.  Doug would be able to 
spend ALL of this time writing - which I know would radically 
improve his quality and output.  Not that it's bad -- but he 
wouldn't have to do *anything* else (well, maybe feed 
penguins).  And if he had any economic worries (believe me, 
real life intrudes), they might be a lighter burden if he 
knew he had decent medical insurance, paid vacation, and a 
steady income from what he loves to do.

Mind you, we would all run out and apply for the job if that 
were true.

What I would be willing to pay for is a more well-thought out 
game.  I was willing to pay over 500 dollars to accumulate 
the whole PCCS set of books, just to get a "combat system".  
Note that I said "just".  If I could get that detail and 
quality (or better) in a single book, I would gladly pay over 
100 dollars for it (heck, I paid 200 for the Riverside 
Shakespeare, and you can download Shakespeare plays).  I 
would much rather have that than an endless series of rule 
books.

OTOH, I do want an endless series of adventure books, 
background, etc.  I would pay 10 to 20 dollars a month for a 
subscription to a monthly edition of JTAS which would have to 
be equal in quality and depth to a non-gaming magazine 
(Precision Shooting).  Unfortunately, there are more 
benchrest shooters than Traveller players with money.

Given our numbers, and given what we really want and expect, 
we really need to reconsider the economic model.  And not 
just from the perspective of "let's go make a free game".

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:39:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:39:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
Message-ID: <B8D89F67.3805D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 12:46 PM, Sam Draper at samdraper@lansource.net wrote:
> 
> That is very interesting.  I have read in tests that little darts at high
> velocities are remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do
> little tissue damage.  But odd things happen at high velocities.  I'll see
> if I can dig up my source.

It depends on how well they are stabilized.  The trick is to make a
projectile stable in air, but unstable in tissue.  As tissue is about 800
times denser, this is generally not a problem.  As you are doubtlessly
aware, all projectiles tend to yaw, and this tendency is exacerbated when
transiting media.  The long, thin projectile tends to tumble and bend,
creating large permanent wound tracks.  Also, a quick review of Mach's
equation will show that retardation rates for these long projectiles are
high, meaning that more energy is dumped into the target more quickly.

Lastly, it is much easier to drive 'darts' at very high velocities. once a
projectile passes 1450 m/s, the speed of sound in tissue, there is a
dramatic increase in tissue damage.

See Charters & Charters (1976):

Experiments conducted with steel spheres at velocities around 2000 m/s
showed that such projectiles  "could be expected to have significantly
different wounding effect than larger spheres, with approximately the same
energy, impacting at about 750 m/s. The smaller spheres showed less
penetration in gelatin blocks, but much greater lateral damage."

And later: "This type of wound would be particularly disabling and may
require new approaches to debridement and wound closure."

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:48:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:48:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092046.DSD03610@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>     "U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition 
>require a 55 grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity 
>of 3,250 q 40 fps from a 20 inch test barrel measured 15 
>feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement
>from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean 
>radius at 200 yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates 
>to approximately three MOA).

back in 1989, we tested 5.56mm SS109 from four different 
M16A2 (we just got them) at 300 yards.  The range was 
outdoors, so wind was a factor.  The shooters were not your 
run of the mill soldiers.  The lesson was that shooting 
outdoors is not shooting in a test tunnel.  The average group 
size was over 12 inches (some people managed smaller - as 
small as 4 inches).

Using the M-21 without the scope, just NM iron sights, using 
M118 special ball, we all managed 3 to 4 inch groups.

I'm not sure what I would ascribe the difference to, other 
than quality of weapon and quality of ammunition.  

Something else to consider - there is a maximum degree of 
engineering tolerance that you can measure and control when 
manufacturing or reloading ammunition.  The reason that I 
stick to .30 caliber is that those tolerances have less 
effect on a larger, heavier round.  The bullet is larger and 
heavier, the case larger, and the powder charge heavier.  So 
if I vary by the same amount, there's less of an effect - 
more consistent ammunition.

Another reminder - in benchrest shooting, if you don't limit 
the magnification or weapon weight, people tend to the .22 
PPC.  It's an *extremely* accurate round out of extremely 
accurate rifles.  But as soon as the magnification is limited 
to 6x, or the weapons are firing from NM iron sights, 
the .308 rules, even over the 6mm PPC.  The .223 Remington - 
is not seen - in benchrest circles.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:53:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:53:05 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.110558.7F2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several 
> places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and 
> they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone 
> in the place.

"the rifle"?

What is it, a Barret .50 or something? 

> I went out and bought another one.  But it's not like the 
> place I work for now really needs to know that.  You really 
> are treated as a second-class citizen, just for owning a 
> firearm.

I'd be surprised if that happened around here.

> I don't know how Tod does it, or Mark, or some of the other 
> NFA holders.  People would jump out of their skins here if I 
> told them I was going to buy an NFA weapon.

Ok, *that* I can understand.

> ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because 
> people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.

I suspect that folks are still gonna get a bit uncomfortable around
folks who are "over-armed" for the situation. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:54:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:54:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <20020405.142533.-122687.3.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20409.111006.0U8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> How about oosik? 
>
> Say what??? What's Oosik??

It's the penis bone of walruses.

Yes, many mammals have a *real* "boner". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:55:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:55:50 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.111435.4V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the 
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of 
> war.  People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or 
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.  
> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their 
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full 
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in 
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything 
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).
>
> It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message 
> across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you 
> have to do.
>
> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their 
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like 
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to 
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough 
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their 
> ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on 
> the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay 
> waste to an advanced industrial society?

If they have reason to *expect* that sort of thing? 

A *lot*. Especially given that once nuclear damper tech is available,
decontamination is a matter of raising the decay rate of the fallout
and other contaminated material as high as you can without generating
more heat than you want to deal with. 

A planet is a *big* place. 

There's also the fact that if you do it to them, you'd better expect
them to return the favor.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:57:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:57:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020405164806.00a49df0@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <20409.112410.6E7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:20:15 -0700, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>
>>Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>>blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>>strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.
>
> Put me down as afraid of guns, then.  Being in the presence of a real, 
> functioning weapon makes me nervous.  In most circumstances, I would refuse 
> to even hold one.
>
> To some extent, this is probably because I was never acclimated to them as 
> a youth, through hunting or whatever.  But I am similarly nervous around 
> anything that can cause death or serious injury, even/especially by 
> accident or negligence.

Knives, chainsaw, cars, hammers, baseball bats....

> For example, I used to work at a gas station; part 
> of my job was refilling propane cylinders from the big tank out back.  I 
> hated it.  The stuff was cryo-cold, flammable, explosive, and under high 
> pressure.  I was trained for it, but I still hated it.

I used to work around stuff like hydrofluoric acid and 180 C baths of
concentrated caustic (NaOH/KOH mix). 

I was *cautious*. I wasn't scared.

Someone who *was* scared managed to splash himself with weak HF
solution *because* he was scared. Rather than lower the carrier
carefully into the bath by the handle, he'd *drop* them.

Rational caution is one thing. *Fear* is quite another.

> There's also the "with great power comes great responsibility" angle.
> I do not want or need the power to maim or kill another human being,
> or the responsibility that necessarily comes with it.

I take it that you don't drive then. 

Seriously. a car is a deadlier weapon than most guns.

> It's a lot harder to kill someone with a jacket.  Definitely not 
> impossible, but jackets are not primarily designed to apply deadly 
> force.  A firearm is, and I grant them all the respect they are due
> as a result.

Knives are primarily designed to cut flesh. It's all in how you use a
tool. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:58:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:58:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20409.114039.8S6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear 
> devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and 
> convincing reasons for it.

It takes an unreasonable amount of effort to damage a *planet*. 

Destroying cities and installations on or near the surface is easier,
but still, a lot of effort. 

You've got to realize that there are lots of places on earth, hell,
even in the US where you could set off the biggest nuke ever made, and
the folks a town or two over wouldn't notice anything but the fallout.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:59:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:59:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20409.114950.6a1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> But mutual destruction is not assured.  One side would have to win a 
> years-long naval campaign in order to deliver its nuclear warheads against 
> all the appropriate targets.  Strephon, from the comfort of his Capital 
> doesn't fear in the least for his own safety or his families in the event 
> of nuclear exchange with the Zhodani.  And the Vargr Extents are such a 
> hotheaded place that I cannot be convinced all the nuclear warheads that 
> have been in that region for centuries were never used due to its leaders' 
> very enlightened view about protecting civilization.  As the Sword Worlders 
> should have nuked whoever they were ticked at many times over by now.  And 
> the Aslan prize honor well above their own individual lives.  Aside from 
> cultural biases toward or away nuclear warfare, there have just been so 
> many _individual_ sophonts with their fingers on the button in different 
> times and places that it should have happened many times by now.

Remember, nuking a *planet* is about the same "scale" as nuking a
*city* now. At least relative to the sizes of the major players.

But it involves a *lot* more effort. We are talking tens to *hundreds*
of *thousands* of warheads. And that's just for a "sparse" coverage. 

A size 7 world is 7000 miles in diameter. That gives a surface area of
over 150 *million* square miles. That means that if you hit it with
10,000 warheads they'll average 125 miles apart!

With 100,000, they'll average a bit under 40 miles apart.

Planets are *big*.

> And in a way, the game's authors agree with that notion.  But only in 
> general.  There seems to be a lack of specific worlds that have actually 
> been thoroughly nuked over to go with the general history of 
> destruction.  Let me go through all the relevant canonical evidence that 
> come to my (sputtering and unreliable) memory to see what each one in turn 
> makes me think about how MAD affected things.
>
> The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:
> The Ancients War
> Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani
> Presumably the N Interstellar wars
> Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night
> Very early in Zhodani history
> Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) from 
> on Darrian

No, what happened to the Darrians was an accident. An induced solar
"flare" of incredible magnitude. Sort of a "mini-nova". 

> At least I think it was nukes with Darrian.  Or something just as 
> devastating, so the MAD concept would still apply.

Except the Darrians are the only ones who have the Star Trigger. 

> I can easily accept that enough time has passed since nuclear weapons were 
> used by the Ancients that we shouldn't look for reduced populations or 
> uninhabitable areas due to them.  But their war is an example of none of 
> the sides being deterred by MAD.
>
> The war against the Ziru Sirka should have left marks on various planets 
> that would have been mentioned elsewhere in canon.  It is an example of 
> just how geographically vast wars between interstellar powers are, and how 
> that makes MAD unlikely.
>
> There don't seem to be any worlds still showing mentionable signs of 
> nuclear weapons from the N Instellar Wars.  Ditto for examples from the 
> Long Night.

You are forgetting that with nuclear dampers, you can clean up the
radioactive contamination *easily*. and unless truly amazing numbers of
weapons are used, the actual *blast* damage will easily disappear on
something as big as a planet. 

> Darrian seems to be a good canonical instance of nuclear warfare happening 
> specifically somewhere, not just in a general way to somebody.

That wasn't anything as trivial as a nuclear war. The Maghiz clobbered
electronics and the like for *parsecs* from the Darrian home system.

> I find it hard to believe there are no famous specific examples of worlds 
> in the Core sector being "razed" by nukes dropped by one of the Barracks 
> Emperors or wannabes.  Civil wars tend to be the least civil, as the old 
> saying goes.

You are missing the *scale* of things. Dropping a nuke on a planet is
(relatively speaking) equivalent to throwing a grenade into a *room* of
a building in a city. At worst, blowing up a small building. 

You won't find the damage unless you *look* for it. 

> There are also quite a few canonical instances of balkanized worlds or 
> neighboring worlds that are on the brink of total nuclear warfare in the 
> current timeline.  If such tensions have careened towards the brink so 
> often in current times, how could they have been so consistently avoided 
> during the pasts of all the locations that canon visits and shows us.

Maybe they weren't. 

It's just that contrary to popular belief, anything short of the level
required to trigger something like a nuclear winter, *won't* be all
that noticeable even 300 years later. 

Even without damper tech, in 300 years high-level nuclear waste will be
no more radioactive than the original uranium ore. Stuff like fallout
would take careful tests to detect. The craters of surface blasts would
be detectable with radiation detectors. But only as areas a bit more
radioactive than normal. 

Bulldoze the dirt and rubble from the "total destruction" zone around
the crater into it (a good idea to both fill the hole and to help
"immobilize" the contaminated material) and it'd be hard to tell after
even a hundred years.

Remember, the more radioactive something is, the *shorter* the
half-life, and thus the quicker it becomes safe.

So, short of researching local history, or doing a *detailed* survey of
an area, you'd never know that there'd been a nuclear war unless it was
*really* bad.


Which reminds me. Some day I need to sit down and try to figure out
what would be required to produce a "burned off" world such as appears
in some of Norton's books. Especially something like "the Big Burn" on
Terra from "Plague Ship". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:01:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:01:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.121152.9P1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>      "Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani."
>
>      Canon is littered with references to the Vilani "way" of war being 
> brutally pragmatic.  IMHO, the Ziru Sirka would have used nukes early and 
> often.  Then again, I have trouble believing the canonical description of 
> the Interstellar War anyway.
>      GT:RoF has the Vilani visiting Terra after the 2nd War.  These 
> representatives of the ZS must have been either brain dead or traitors not 
> to bring an accurate report back to Dingir from Sol.  After being shown a 
> ~10 billion humans on an industrialized world, the "brutally pragmatic" 
> Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt.

Sorry, not *possible*. Not even the third Imperium has *that* kind of
firepower. 

It'd (barely) be possible to "pave" the surface, if you had *lots* of
time and money..

>      All the explanations about population levels, internal Vilani politics, 
> blah, blah, blah, are just liberal doses of handwavium.  With the 
> superioroty in maneuver drives and missile tech that RoF claims for them, 
> the Ziro Sirka would have, could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it 
> glowed.

Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
Millions, hundreds of millions.

>      Perhaps, or maybe it's just damper technology.  I don't have Striker to 
> hand, but IIRC dampers pretty much draw the fangs out of nukes.  How 
> easy/hard would it be for PDFs to maintain damper coverage for an entire 
> world?  Could such coverage be projected from orbit by naval vessels?  If 
> so, the 3I could show up above some balkanized world with a nasty squabble 
> taking place and declare a "no-nukes" zone with a couple of orbitting 
> escorts.

It'd be easier to just "sweep" areas with dampers set to "mildly"
accelerate reactions and cause any chunks of fissionables above a
certain size to melt into puddles (which could lead to messy side
reactions as the spreading puddles meet).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:02:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:02:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <010301c1de1d$72819f80$a85d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20409.125213.4J9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>> I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because
>> humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill
>> that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate
>> thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in
>> Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost
>> any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something
>> separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before.
>
> The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
> Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
> million or more - far greater than the examples given above.

The camps didn't just kill Jews. Add in the homosexuals and gypsies and
you get more than 10 million.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] G:Ground Forces queston
In-Reply-To: <B8D3910E.30E8%jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20409.133914.4F8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In the Grav vehicle design section, duct fans are listed as having a
> positive energy amount, instead of negative.  Is this an error or do they
> actually act as power plants?

Well, unless they are driven electrically, they are engines turning the
fans.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:05:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:05:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3B11B.377EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20409.134026.4K8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/5/02 7:30 PM, Trista at asmahan@the-spa.com wrote:
>
>> Hmmm, that sounds like the book 'Forlorn Hope'; mercenaries use
>> something called a 'cone bore rifle', the barrel of which is supposedly
>> of diamond and fires an osmium needle which is compressed as it travels
>> through the barrel and reaches hypervelocites. Had them in cannon size
>> too as I recall.

And it was one of those artillery sized ones that got them in trouble.
They managed to shoot down a multi-billion credit starship with it.

Thus causing the opposition to specifically *exclude* them from the
amnesty. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:06:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:06:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Flechettes
Message-ID: <200204092052.DSD04457@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn
<snip about flechettes>

See Dr. Fackler at
http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/pmrb.html

There are the other bullets we were discussing there, as well 
as Fackler talking about flechettes.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:08:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:08:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:35:30PM -0400
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:35:30PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> You would still need to defend the intellectual property 
> rights of the "free" part of the game, or some game company 
> would run off with it.

That's the difference philosophy between the GPL and BSD.  The GPL
says `this is free, and whatever you do with it must also be free.'
The BSD says `this is free; enjoy.'  I'm partial to the GPL, simply
because otherwise someone else can take that work and profit from
closing it.  But there are good arguments for both models, depending
on what one's goals are.

Tax-funded work, for instance, should be BSD-licensed, never
proprietary, thus allowing everyone to use it.

> We really should pay someone like Loren or Doug a LOT more money for
> their work.

Well, it's all a matter of what the market will bear.  Software pays
better because there's more demand.  RPGs pay worse because there's
not as much.

I try to help by purchasing about as many RPGs as I can afford (I've
got almost all of the main GT line, including GT:FT, GT:FI and GT:GF).
I figure that Loren, Doug, Marc and the rest all deserve a bit for the
good work they've done.

The fact that I collect RPGs doesn't enter into it:-)

> What I would be willing to pay for is a more well-thought out 
> game.

That's part of the value add one gets with a professional editor.
Most people cannot properly edit their own work.  I wonder if it might
not be possible for there to be money in taking freely-available work
and compiling it onto one large work.  Slap a compilation copyright
over the whole thing (to prevent others from just grabbing it up), but
the individual pieces are still free for anyone.

> Heck, I paid 200 for the Riverside Shakespeare, and you can download
> Shakespeare plays.

Yup.  Shakespeare's copy rights long ago expired--yet there's still a
market in them.  And there's still a market in plays, despite the fact
that, AFAICT, no-one's managed to do any better since.

> Given our numbers, and given what we really want and expect, we
> really need to reconsider the economic model.  And not just from the
> perspective of "let's go make a free game".

Well, something folks should realise is that it's not a free game in
the sense of money: a lot of work and effort would go into such a
thing.  I've spent man-months working on travlib and travtrack; I've
poured a lot of my life into them.  The same would hold for a free
system.  It's free in the sense of freedom; anyone could enjoy its
use.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If your adversary is badly bunkered, there is no rule against your
standing over him and counting his strokes aloud, but it will be a wise
precaution to arm yourself with the niblick before doing so, so as to
meet him on equal terms.                 --Horace G. Hutchinson, 1886

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:10:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:10:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F164o8C7wyfwjHNuQuN000048cd@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon:

>I've shot for fun at ranges where state police were
>practicing with their mouse guns.  I was using a Remington
>700 Police DM in .308, with a new barrel.  Past 300 yards,
>there was an incremental advantage, which really opened up at
>about 500 yards (hey, there really IS a morning glory effect).
>
>They were not smirking afterwards.  They wanted my weapon.

True, issue semi-autos do not have the accuracy of accurized bolt guns.  But 
the AR-15 is pretty close, as close as it comes really.  Comparing police 
issue M16s (Vietnam era M16A1s or carbines?) to a 700 Police DM is really 
apples and oranges.

> >Anyway, when we are talking 1,000 yards we are really
> >talking about ranges for snipers, not infantry.
> >
>
>OK.  But how do we identify these men if the basic weapon
>can't do half the sniper's range?

I think most Marines can hit a torso sized target at 500 yards about 100% of 
the time.  I don't think I am going out on a limb by saying their chances of 
hitting the target at that range is not going to be any greater with an M14. 
  Certainly a match M16 can beat a match M14 at that range (absent extreme 
winds).

>I never had a maintenance problem with the M-21, nor were the
>optics a problem.  I would recommend not taking off the
>sights (some mounts I saw later were silver soldered to
>prevent removal).

What mount are you using?  I have never found one that repeats zero after 
removal, and I am not comoftable with having to resight a weapon every time 
I want to give it a thorough cleaning.  I have looked at the ARMS mount, and 
it looks pretty solid, but it will still not be as good as mounting optic 
direcly on the reciever like you can with the M16A4.

>They are not "tweaked" so much as
>specifically chosen/selected and then "gone over" to be
>properly re-bedded (glass bedding certain areas).

The problem with the M14 is that the bedding needs to be redone every 
season.  Otherwise, its accuracy will deteriorate.  The M16 does not need 
bedding, and it can easily be free-floated.

>factory rifles today (bolt-actions) come with aluminum
>bedding blocks as standard, and have higher quality barrels
>than virtually any military rifle.  So many of them are
>accurate enough "out of the box" to give any semi-auto (and
>this includes a tricked out M-16) a run for its money.

I would say that most commercial rifles, like the ones from Wal-Mart, would 
definately not get better accuracy than a match M16.  Certainly a tricked 
out or upgraded bolt action would probably be better than a tricked out M16 
though.

>Even though Remington has had its quality control problems
>over the years, I could take virtually any Sendero model out
>of the box and out range anyone with a tricked out M-16.

Of course it depends on what you are doing.  Would you arm an entire army 
with Senderos?  It is not exactly the ideal close-quarters weapon.  Sure, 
the bolt gun would be superior to an M16 in the specific scenario you 
mention, but that does not necessarily make it superior in all situations.  
The M16A2 is a classic Jack of all Trades weapon.  Capable of aimed fire out 
to 500 yards, most effective at under 200 yards, which (they say) is where 
most infantry combat takes place.  While the M16 may have rang limits, it is 
supported by a variety of longer range weapons.  I think the army, when 
adopting the M16, correctly decided that there is a real limit to how far 
the average infantryman can shoot effectively, and adopted a weapon that is 
optimized for that range.  The longer range stuff is the responsiblity of 
the supporting weapons (which you left out of your sniper scenario).

On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off some 
M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and issuing them at 
the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max 500 yards?) and sniper 
(800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the guy with the M14 the 
"designated marksman" or something like that.  The guy who wrote the article 
I read did not like the idea, because of the the difficulties associated 
with the accurized M14s as stated above and standardization issues, but from 
what I understand these were deployed to Afghanistan so we should be getting 
reports soon.

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:11:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:11:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204072135.DON00704@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D8A4C3.3806F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 2:35 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> laning asks
>> 
>> Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread,
>> mentioning the ability of various Traveller races to cope
>> with recoil, I should have also mentioned battle dress.
>> That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more recoil.  But
>> how much?
>> 
> 
> Good question.  I've always wondered about this, because if
> you could carry large weapons and handle high recoil, you
> would have a semi-auto rifle that fired high velocity 20mm
> (not low velocity 20mm like the OICW).
> 
> 20mm californium rounds, that is.  The one part of Striker I
> really liked.  Hit someone in battledress and watch the
> little mushroom cloud.

With 'soft recoil' weapons, you can shoot some pretty big stuff.  The
problem is having any accuracy when shooting off a non-rigid platform (like
a person).

I have a photo somewhere of someone shooting a .50 Browing machinegun (soft
recoil version) full auto off their shoulder.

How does 'soft recoil' work you ask?

In a simple example, a large percentage of the weapon is capable of movement
within its mount.  The moving portion (including the barrel and bolt)  is
held rearward under spring pressure.  On firing, the moving assembly is
propelled forward, with the actual round being fired at some predetermined
point, usually just before 'run out'.  The rearward force of firing must
overcome the forward momentum of the assembly before any recoil is felt.

This is the reason that open bolt SMGs have less recoil than closed bolt
guns.

it is quite possible to design gun of fairly large caliber and KE that can
be fired tolerably by a person.

The problem with these systems is maintaining point of aim while the
assembly goes rocketing forward before the round is actually fired.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:12:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:12:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8D8A503.38070%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 3:05 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth
> for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and
> for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females
> it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing.
> Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how
> old the data is.

I just looked at my spreadsheets and see that the thickness I used was
actually 25 cm.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:14:52 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204092104.DSD06042@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson asks
>
>"the rifle"?

Remington 700 Police DM, in .308. (Comes with HS Precision 
stock with integral aluminum bedding block). Action 
reworked/firing pin replaced with titanium pin, barrel 
replaced with heavy contour Douglas Premium Match barrel, 
Timney trigger, Leupold Mark V M3 10x scope with mil-dot 
reticle, NEAR one-piece scope base optimized to get the most 
elevation adjustement out of the scope, Vortex flash 
suppressor, bipod, Simrad KN-250 GEN III night vision with 
adapter to fit over Leupold Mark V.

Some were frightened just by seeing it, some by going to the 
range with me and *seeing* it.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F36GB9wIWXLU9778dvM000038ae@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon said:

>back in 1989, we tested 5.56mm SS109 from four different
>M16A2 (we just got them) at 300 yards.  The range was
>outdoors, so wind was a factor.  The shooters were not your
>run of the mill soldiers.  The lesson was that shooting
>outdoors is not shooting in a test tunnel.  The average group
>size was over 12 inches (some people managed smaller - as
>small as 4 inches).

I think the military only requires 3 or 4 MOA from its M16A2s, so that is 
not out of line.  Standard issue M14s were not required to do any better.  
Whether those were mediocre rifles or mediocre ammo (I'll take your word for 
it that there were no mediocre shooters ;)), I've seen much better.

Were these U.S. rifles?  Just curious, as the army does not call the 62 
grain round SS109; here it is called M855.

>Using the M-21 without the scope, just NM iron sights, using
>M118 special ball, we all managed 3 to 4 inch groups.

That is not realy fair comparing an M21 with NM sights to issue M16s.  It is 
undeniable that the M14s have been entirely replaced by M16/AR-15s at the 
National Matches.  This is at ranges out to 600 yards.  The Marine team even 
switched, because they found it intolerable to keep getting whipped by the 
Army.  One shooting comparison between two different quality rifles is 
hardly an even playing field.

Did you guys see that a female teenage Marine won the national matches (with 
an M16) a few years ago?

>I'm not sure what I would ascribe the difference to, other
>than quality of weapon and quality of ammunition.

Ammunition maybe, and maybe poor quality assembly, but not the weapon 
system.

>The .223 Remington -
>is not seen - in benchrest circles.

The .223 is a fairly accurate round, on par with most cartridges.  The 308 
is theoretically more accurate.  It is certainly more resistant to the wind. 
  But as far as semi-auto platforms, there is nothing better than Stoner's 
design.  Put a 308 in an M16 platform, like the AR-10 or SR-25, and you get 
outstanding accuracy.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092132.DSF01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>  says
>Comparing police issue M16s (Vietnam era M16A1s or 
>carbines?) to a 700 Police DM is really 
>apples and oranges.
>

These were Montgomery County Police and Maryland State Police 
with heavily tricked-out M-16 variants (you know the type, 
looks like a Gauss rifle).  They were all firing match grade 
ammunition.  They did best at 100 yards, which is their 
engagement distance.  Past that...  Out at 800 yards, where 
the wind blows, you have to compensate more for the 5.56mm.

>
>I think most Marines can hit a torso sized target at 500 
>yards about 100% of the time.

Marines yes, Army infantry, no way.  And that assumes that 
your enemy is standing in the open.  Most experienced 
soldiers go into the prone.  Once you're in the prone, the 
bolt action in the hands of a sniper has the advantage, 
because you can hit grapefruit-sized targets very reliably at 
300 to 400 yards, and most of the time at 500.  Take those 
same Marines and try to have them hit the grapefruit at 500.  
There's probably a Distinguished Marksman in there, isn't 
there?

>  Certainly a match M16 can beat a match M14 at that range 
> absent extreme winds).
>

Part of the reason the M-16 does better is *over* a course of 
fire - fatigue due to recoil is an effect.  

>What mount are you using?  

The standard one that came with the weapon - round knob.  
There's a lot of grief to be had from removing it, but you 
can find a good one.  Then again - for purposes of real 
accuracy, I've never been able to get "detachable" mounts of 
any kind to repeat zero.


>scenario

That's why you shoot in order - RTO, machinegunner, anti-tank 
missile gunner, sergeant, LT.  But, like I said, spotting me 
in the first place is difficult.  But if all the police have 
is a set of mouseguns, then set up with a Sendero at 600 
yards.  Not one will ever return fire, unless there are more 
than four.

Go to the store and look at a Sendero.  It's not a custom 
weapon, but it is very, very good.  About the only thing it 
requires is a properly mounted high quality scope and having 
the bolt squared and lapped.  I've had two (and a 700P), and 
all of them were 1/2 MOA out of the box.  The remaining work 
was for my peace of mind.  My 700P was close to 1/4 MOA.

The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my 
rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these, 
and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get 
him without losing half the team or more."

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F166rhup7IpGwC6RZT20000d54e@hotmail.com>

Tod Glen:

>It depends on how well they are stabilized.  The trick is to make a
>projectile stable in air, but unstable in tissue.  As tissue is about 800
>times denser, this is generally not a problem.  As you are doubtlessly
>aware, all projectiles tend to yaw, and this tendency is exacerbated when
>transiting media.  The long, thin projectile tends to tumble and bend,
>creating large permanent wound tracks.  Also, a quick review of Mach's
>equation will show that retardation rates for these long projectiles are
>high, meaning that more energy is dumped into the target more quickly.

That all makes a lot of sense to me, but it just seems like I read something 
that said kind of the opposite.  The site where I thought I read that is 
down though, and my memory is hardly infallible - except in regards to the 
velocity of 5.56mm ball of course.  ;)

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:02:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:02:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F80Dll7fnp3eEHJtfob00001392@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon said:

>These were Montgomery County Police and Maryland State Police
>with heavily tricked-out M-16 variants (you know the type,
>looks like a Gauss rifle).  They were all firing match grade
>ammunition.  They did best at 100 yards, which is their
>engagement distance.  Past that...  Out at 800 yards, where
>the wind blows, you have to compensate more for the 5.56mm.

With tricke out M16s, these guys are crappy shots if they can not make a 
headshot at 600 yards.  True, your Sendero will be better, but the M16 
should still be able to do the job.

>Marines yes, Army infantry, no way.  And that assumes that
>your enemy is standing in the open.  Most experienced
>soldiers go into the prone.  Once you're in the prone, the
>bolt action in the hands of a sniper has the advantage,
>because you can hit grapefruit-sized targets very reliably at
>300 to 400 yards, and most of the time at 500.  Take those
>same Marines and try to have them hit the grapefruit at 500.
>There's probably a Distinguished Marksman in there, isn't
>there?

Again, no question that a 308 bolt gun will do better at longer ranges than 
an issue M16.  A tricked out AR-15 could be able to make headshots at that 
range too.  A 308 bolt gun from Wal-Mart would not.

>Part of the reason the M-16 does better is *over* a course of
>fire - fatigue due to recoil is an effect.

Sure.

> >What mount are you using?
>
>The standard one that came with the weapon - round knob.

Is that the Springfield mount?

>Then again - for purposes of real
>accuracy, I've never been able to get "detachable" mounts of
>any kind to repeat zero.

I have had outstanding results with mil-spec rails, but maybe our 
definitions of what is acceptable is different.

> >scenario
>
>That's why you shoot in order - RTO, machinegunner, anti-tank
>missile gunner, sergeant, LT.  But, like I said, spotting me
>in the first place is difficult.  But if all the police have
>is a set of mouseguns, then set up with a Sendero at 600
>yards.  Not one will ever return fire, unless there are more
>than four.

I would not be too sure.  People win national matches at 600 yards with 
M16s.  They can mount some pretty nice optics/night vision, etc. on their 
weapon, and the pros can make a headshot at that range.

Besides, in your sniper scenario, as a lover of peace and tranquility I'd 
simply avoid them.

>Go to the store and look at a Sendero.

I don't have to go to the store.  ;)

>It's not a custom
>weapon, but it is very, very good.  About the only thing it
>requires is a properly mounted high quality scope and having
>the bolt squared and lapped.  I've had two (and a 700P), and
>all of them were 1/2 MOA out of the box.  The remaining work
>was for my peace of mind.  My 700P was close to 1/4 MOA.

Which is not all that remarkable for rigs like that.  I actually like 
Winchesters and get similar results.  And don't you dare start a 
Winchester/Remington thing on this thread!

Anway, my point was that a stock AR-15 HBAR will get 1/2 MOA too.  1/4 MOA 
is doable with some upgrades.

I definately agree with you that wind effects 5.56 more than 308, but on the 
other hand you have to start making adjustments for wind for any caliber at 
the longer ranges you are talking about.

>The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my
>rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these,
>and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get
>him without losing half the team or more."

Those cops have seen one Stephen Segal movie too many.  ;)

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F80Dll7fnp3eEHJtfob00001392@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D8B7BA.3813B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 3:01 PM, Sam D at samdx@hotmail.com wrote:

>> The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my
>> rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these,
>> and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get
>> him without losing half the team or more."
> 
> Those cops have seen one Stephen Segal movie too many.  ;)

Reality.  The police evacuate the area.  Then they get their negotiator to
bore you to death.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092239.DSH02057@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>Reality.  The police evacuate the area.  Then they get their 
>negotiator to bore you to death.
>--

The assets that police have: time, time, and more time.  And 
some more time.

That's why you keep seeing idiots in orange jumpsuits or 
black bodybags on CNN.  The police wait until you decide to 
put on the orange suit, or they wait until you get so tired 
that they rush you and put the black bag on you.

Which makes me wonder what happened in various Federal 
situations.  As long as no one is being killed, I would 
presume that you have all the time in the world.  Even if 
they've killed officers, you can still wait.

ObTrav: Idiot players trapped in their ship by the police.  
Locals set up a carnival row; onlookers begin to camp out.  
News media do unflattering background stories on the players 
and their families. Police start pinochle tournament.  
Players resort to eating their shoes.



________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20409.121152.9P1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com> <20409.121152.9P1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020410084316.A2115@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

[someone wrote:]
> > Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt.
>
> Sorry, not *possible*. Not even the third Imperium has *that* kind of
> firepower.

Not with nukes, no.  They are quite expensive per unit of energy.  And
certainly not on a whim.

The Third Imperium could actually build and transport about 10^17 N
worth of HEPlaR drives per year.  Thruster plates would be even
easier, but I'll assume HEPlaR.  A decade worth of HEPlaR production
gives you 10^18 N of thrust.  The cost of building the mining systems
and refineries for them to run on water would would be relatively
trivial in comparison.

You find a nice large cometary body, say 1000 km across, to mount them
on.  You build a shell around it.  You accelerate it for a further
decade at 0.0003g (initially), aimed at Terra.  By the time it gets
there, about 60% of the mass has been consumed and it's moving at
about 1500 km/s.  If my calculations are correct, that should deliver
enough energy to overcome Earth's gravitational self-binding.

In practice it wouldn't be that efficient, but it would certainly
create a new asteroid belt, and render what's left of the planet into
a recondensing ball of gas.  It would also noticeably alter Earth's
orbit, lengthening or shortening the year by about half a day or so.


> > the Ziro Sirka would have, could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it 
> > glowed.
> 
> Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
> Millions, hundreds of millions.

What scary numbers.

Ten million 100-megaton warheads costs about 1 TCr at Ziru Sirka tech
levels.  That's less than some *single* systems' GWP for just one
year.  Furthermore, the whole load could be carried in a few transport
ships.  The total cost (including transportation) works out about the
same as a couple of dreadnaughts, and they deliver enough energy to
raise the temperature of the entire surface of the planet to the point
where it does *literally* glow.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>

The esteemed sophonts Summer, Pitt, Robertson, Bond, Laning, Wildstar and
others I am no doubt forgetting to credit, wrote eloquently on starship
insurance, leading me to commit random observations on insurance and law in
Traveller.

Your premiums would be a function your risk pool, the size of your
deductible, and what riders you have on your policy.

What kinds of insurance do starships need?  Several spring to mind.
Starships carrying a mortgage will require comprehensive insurance which
would include the following:

Theft and Casualty - Fairly straightforward, this insurance compensates the
insured in the event the ship, or any portion thereof, is stolen or damaged.
Common exclusions (circumstances under which the insurance does not apply)
would probably include: Loss as a result of Acts of God or Nature; Loss as a
result of Acts of Warfare; Loss as a result of Acts of Terrorism; Loss as a
result of Natural Hazards to Navigation; Loss due to Malice, Fraud or Acts
of Deliberate Intent on the part of the Insured, Loss Incurred while
Violating Imperial or Regional Law (including, among many things, travel in
a Red Zone.

Available riders (additional coverage relating to specific circumstances
available for higher premiums) would probably include: Atmospheric Entry;
Gas Giant Refueling; Planetfall Outside Approved Starports; Stellar Flares;
Uncharted Hazards to Navigation; Utilization of Jump-Space, Travel to an
Amber Zone.

Payouts in the event of damage will be the cost of repair of the damage, or
replacement of the damaged part(s) minus the deductible.  Payouts in the
case of theft or total loss of the vessel will be either the current value
of the ship (the Blue Book value) or a pre-agreed value established in the
policy (the more expensive, but perhaps better choice for older vessels that
may not hold their value as well.)  In either case, the payout would, of
course, be minus the deductible.

Premium reductions would probably be available for unusually well trained or
certified key crewmembers such as Captain, pilot and astrogator.
Anti-hijack and port security programs, as well as security officers on
board might also get you a discount if such things are not required by law
already.

That's frequently how insurance companies get policy holders to toe the
line.  Not by filling the policy with onerous requirements (although they're
not above that,) but by lobbying the law-making and regulatory bodies to
pass legislation and regulations that enforce the behavior the insurance
companies desire.  It also has the added benefit that the government is now
inspecting and enforcing for the insurance companies.

Modern day example:  Seat belts.  I don't think (although I could be wrong,
I'm still wet behind the ears) that insurance policies in the USA ever
required passengers in insured vehicles to wear seat belts.  Seat belts,
when used, lower insurance payouts.  Now, largely as a result of insurance
lobbying, seat belts must, by law, be worn in Texas and nearly everywhere
else. (any states in the union that don't require seat belts?)

This already too long by far, and I haven't even got into hypothetical legal
cases regarding theft and casualty insurance in the TU, much less moved on
to other kinds of insurance.

More on insurance later, if there is sufficient interest.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:55:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:55:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020410085426.A2419@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> Anyway, off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to
> make this work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the
> square-root of the inertial suppression factor.

If you're directly altering the strength of the interaction, the
strength should drop off exactly in line with the mass reduction.  The
square-root factor was when altering the *charge*.

You should likewise reduce the strength of the strong and weak forces.


Now, just Planck's constant to deal with :)

If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
well.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:57:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:57:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F793hRDT6Z3LstPGtPr00011ce3@hotmail.com>

So am I right in saying that these little gauss projectiles you all are 
talking about, the ones that do so much damage, are not fletchettes?  They 
use spin to stabilize in the air rather than little wings, right?

If so, that is where I got so horribly confused.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.151435.2e5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a 
> miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no 
> visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).

A pulse laser capable of doing srious damage to a human *will* leave a
path of ionization thru the air. This will give both a visible beam
*and* a distinctive noise. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:06:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:06:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20409.151650.6b9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/6/02 2:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>
>> 
>> But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a
>> miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no
>> visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).
>> 
>
> What type of laser? What power range?  Are their any ionizing effects?
> Certainly the laser makes noise when it hits the target.  Steam explosions
> in tissue, the popping of superheated fat.
>
> And ever looked at a later with LI gear?  Super obvious.  Like having a big
> pointer going back to the firer.  And lasers are relatively easy to defeat,
> or at least attenuate.  A few mils of highly reflective material sewn into
> clothing, prismatic aerosols.  As mentioned in a previous post, lasers are
> not good penetrators.  The problem is with the nature of lasers themselves.
> The have to vaporize there way through materials.  But the vaporized
> material itself can act as a hindrance to the laser.

Which is why you use a pulse laser with a *short* pulse duration. The
target spot flashes into plasma at supersonic speeds and blasts a nice
hole. 

And reflective material won't help as much as people think. 99%
reflectivity is *hard* to achieve. And 1% of the pulse energy is still
nasty. 

> Also, water (and by analogy tissue) is a great thermal sink. 55 calories to
> raise 1 cc of water 1 degree centigrade, IIRC.

Yeah, but given that the pulse energy is in the kJ to MJ range, this
isn't as much of a problem as you may think.

Remember, *by definition* a laser weapon has to be able to deposit
damaging amounts of energy. 

Basicly, the only effect wavelength will have is on the penetration
depth. That is, how far the energy of the pulse pentrates before being
absorbed. 

Keep in mind that while the *energy* of the pulse might only be a few
kilojoules the *power* level will be in the megawatt to gigawatt range.
Pulses of 1 millisecond or *shorter* will be wanted, both to avoid
problems with target movement, but also because the shorter duration
tends to increase the "shock" effect due to increased rapidity of
energy deposition.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <20409.151650.6b9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018393991.5137.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Which is why you use a pulse laser with a *short* pulse duration. The
> target spot flashes into plasma at supersonic speeds and blasts a nice
> hole. 

And, since this isn't clear, it's probably better to use multiple pulses; if
the pulses are close enough together in time you can drill a hole.

> Basicly, the only effect wavelength will have is on the penetration
> depth. That is, how far the energy of the pulse pentrates before being
> absorbed. 

Well, it has a fairly significant effect on range.  Higher penetration also
allows higher energy per pulse, since heat is deposited efficiently at a
greater depth.
> 
> Keep in mind that while the *energy* of the pulse might only be a few
> kilojoules the *power* level will be in the megawatt to gigawatt range.
> Pulses of 1 millisecond or *shorter* will be wanted, both to avoid
> problems with target movement, but also because the shorter duration
> tends to increase the "shock" effect due to increased rapidity of
> energy deposition.

Think microsecond.  You want to create a supersonic shock effect.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:29:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:29:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>

Used to be Scripting Help...

 Well IMTU, originally there wasn't any computer platforms. Simply because
as the Ref I wasn't at the time into computers at all. The subject was
never a point.

 However now I find that there were/are hundreds of computer platcorms in
the world. not counting the versions of several of them. What would this
mean to the TU?

 As some have written about the great beast Gates. I thought that a user
of a minority system could have a few points to add. I mean just because a
new system is forced upon the public. Doesn't magically make all computer
users have it on their desks.

 Taking a clue about the difficulties in file work betwen a windrone any
version and the Commodore. I have been making notes on a run for my
upcoming rebirth Traveller game. Team finds a "disk" that contains the
secret information. but it is not compatible with what they have on the
ship. Now how do they read the information with out destroying the
contents. A fact that I have heard about in older windrone systems being
copied to newer systems. But point is that Idon'T think in Traveller there
is a mega corp making 100% of the computers and all the Os for the
software. I would propose that there are many smaller companies making
software and computers using their own systems. As in the 80s in this
world. Increase that to the tech levels of the worlds, non impperial
worlds with their own standards and there is a situation. One that I am
not certain the Computer skill as written covers in CT.

 As a simple example to this, say I write a file in geoWrite/Whels on my
Commodore. Add to that a GeoPaint file of a map. Send this to someone that
uses a windrone machine. Say this is done online. Any one tapping the line
would collect the file. but unless they have the same equipment as I do,
then it is a bummer to read. BTW: that also includes the fonts. As the
GeoWrite/Whels uses IIRC VLIR a form of image rather than ascii or pet
ascii codes for the charcters. The map would be a lage image file.

 Now I do know that there is a file called "gwimport.exe" created by
maurice Randall that will allow a windrone user to read the base ascii of
the GeoWrite file. It is a Pd one and i have a copy on my BBS. There is
also one for the Amiga called "gwimport.lha" That also is on my BBS. Yet
the file is not one that the majority of useers would have in their tools
disks. Oh FWIW the C= has tools to read the text files in IIRC ascii from
the 1.44 formatted disks. This tool is a german one called "GeoDos".

 As you can see the Ref could install the ability for tools/files to be
about for the higher level computer skilled character to open files from
other platforms.

 Naturally I suspect that the more computer savy members will have more to
say on the subject of cross platform work. Including older editions of
systems. This is just to stimulate the concept of computers not being
unified in the Thrid imperium.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F210WagewMS59IvqvIy000169c3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4237A.16506.A62A44@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 6:18, Sam D wrote:

> But as to your basic point that an M1 gets better accuracy than an
> M16A1, as far as issue weapons I would not be too sure.  The M16's
> action probably gives better accuracy.

My experience with the M16A1 and the M1 (though only one sample of it), 
both unmodified from issue, both using military ball, was that their 
accuracy at 100m was similar, though the M1's better trigger made it 
easier to get the best from the rifle consistently. At 300m the M1 
grouped better in all but very still conditions because the heavier 
bullet wasn't pushed around as much by the wind.

> Also, the M1's wood stock is not so great when you do a lot of firing.

I'd be more concerned about the relatively light barrel, actually.

> The M16 has much less recoil.

Now this you do notice.

> On the other hand, the M16 is lousy if you are using a
> sling (because the sling connects to the front sight which is
> connected directly to the barrel) and it has a very thin barrel.

It's lousy if you use the fore-end, full-stop.

> I bet the M16A2, with the heavy barrel, does better than the Garand
> though. 

The barrel's not thick all the way, though.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CB4251C.2440.AC8C18@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 10:44, Megan Robertson wrote:

> Insurance companies have been in the business of ripping clients off
> since they began, and I doubt they'll change... 
> 
> However, they do often state preconditions, as well as having
> 'weasel' clauses in the contract. When I took out household
> insurance a while back I had to upgrade the front door lock and they
> wanted me to get a burglar alarm until I told them I kept a Doberman
> pinscher :-) 

When I took out insuarance they wanted to put a note to the effect that 
I lived in a high burglary area, and had no alarm. They said that if I 
installed one they'd have to come round and check that this was so. 
They declined to come and check out the quality of the two bull 
terriers, though (and still put the rider in, bastards).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:35:30PM -0400
Message-ID: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 14:56, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Yup.  Shakespeare's copy rights long ago expired--yet there's still a
> market in them.  And there's still a market in plays, despite the fact
> that, AFAICT, no-one's managed to do any better since.

Shakepear didn't have any copyrights on his work - they didn't exist at 
that time. 

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F164o8C7wyfwjHNuQuN000048cd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4295B.22483.BD2072@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 20:59, Sam D wrote:

> Of course it depends on what you are doing.  Would you arm an entire
> army with Senderos?  It is not exactly the ideal close-quarters
> weapon.  Sure, the bolt gun would be superior to an M16 in the
> specific scenario you mention, but that does not necessarily make it
> superior in all situations.  The M16A2 is a classic Jack of all
> Trades weapon.  Capable of aimed fire out to 500 yards, most
> effective at under 200 yards, which (they say) is where most
> infantry combat takes place.  While the M16 may have rang limits, it
> is supported by a variety of longer range weapons.  I think the
> army, when adopting the M16, correctly decided that there is a real
> limit to how far the average infantryman can shoot effectively, and
> adopted a weapon that is optimized for that range.  The longer range
> stuff is the responsiblity of the supporting weapons (which you left
> out of your sniper scenario). 

For what you're talking about the M16 is more accurate than you need, 
and there are better weapons out there for this sort of work - like the 
AK-47 (though for westerners you'd want to lengthen the stock).
 
> On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off
> some M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and
> issuing them at the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max
> 500 yards?) and sniper (800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the
> guy with the M14 the "designated marksman" or something like that. 
> The guy who wrote the article I read did not like the idea, because
> of the the difficulties associated with the accurized M14s as stated
> above and standardization issues, but from what I understand these
> were deployed to Afghanistan so we should be getting reports soon. 

I'm not convinced that these are that big and issue. Every time you 
deploy the weapon should be sighted in first, and I never noticed any 
issues with bedding in my M1. Besides unless there are serious problems 
with this the better trigger will, IME, work in the M1's favour. As the 
M14 (AFAIK) didn't have any significant changes in it trigger (aside 
from the full-auto option) it should have a similar advantage, 
especially over an issue M16A2's trigger.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204092104.DSD06042@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB42A0A.17821.BFCECC@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 17:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Leonard Erickson asks
> >
> >"the rifle"?
> 
> Remington 700 Police DM, in .308. (Comes with HS Precision 
> stock with integral aluminum bedding block). Action 
> reworked/firing pin replaced with titanium pin, barrel 
> replaced with heavy contour Douglas Premium Match barrel, 
> Timney trigger, Leupold Mark V M3 10x scope with mil-dot 
> reticle, NEAR one-piece scope base optimized to get the most 
> elevation adjustement out of the scope, Vortex flash 
> suppressor, bipod, Simrad KN-250 GEN III night vision with 
> adapter to fit over Leupold Mark V.
> 
> Some were frightened just by seeing it, some by going to the 
> range with me and *seeing* it.

Sounds cool. What sort of groups do you get with it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:04:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:04:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D8A503.38070%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB42A0A.7930.BFCE18@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 14:02, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/7/02 3:05 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth
> > for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and
> > for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females
> > it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing.
> > Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how
> > old the data is.
> 
> I just looked at my spreadsheets and see that the thickness I used was
> actually 25 cm.

Cool. You had me thinking that everyone in the US was barrel chested 
for a moment there. :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204072135.DON00704@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.161536.4M2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> laning asks
>>
>>Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread, 
>>mentioning the ability of various Traveller races to cope 
>>with recoil, I should have also mentioned battle dress.  
>>That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more recoil.  But 
>>how much?
>
> Good question.  I've always wondered about this, because if 
> you could carry large weapons and handle high recoil, you 
> would have a semi-auto rifle that fired high velocity 20mm 
> (not low velocity 20mm like the OICW).
>
> 20mm californium rounds, that is.  The one part of Striker I 
> really liked.  Hit someone in battledress and watch the 
> little mushroom cloud.

Consider a "heavy weapon" for a K'kree. Something that "braces" against
the breastbone. I daresay that 20mm wouldn't be out of the question.

I recall some SF race that was built along the lines of the larger
terran ursines (Kodiaks, Polar bears, that sort of thing). A rifle for
one of *them* was a light anti-tank weapon for a human. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020409220409.8A29027AB5@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020409165807.00a496c0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 11:24:10 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> > To some extent, this is probably because I was never acclimated to them as
> > a youth, through hunting or whatever.  But I am similarly nervous around
> > anything that can cause death or serious injury, even/especially by
> > accident or negligence.
>
>Knives, chainsaw, cars, hammers, baseball bats....

If any of those appear likely to be used in anger or recklessly, yes.

> > There's also the "with great power comes great responsibility" angle.
> > I do not want or need the power to maim or kill another human being,
> > or the responsibility that necessarily comes with it.
>
>I take it that you don't drive then.
>
>Seriously. a car is a deadlier weapon than most guns.

I suspect you meant this rhetorically, but actually, I don't.  (My family 
was not in a position, when I was at the appropriate age, to afford the 
insurance premiums for a young driver.)  As I live in a bicycle-friendly 
city, I've never really bothered to learn since then.

As a bike rider, I'm quite aware of the potential deadliness of a ton-plus 
of metal moving at 30+ miles per hour.  Perhaps moreso than many drivers.

> > It's a lot harder to kill someone with a jacket.  Definitely not
> > impossible, but jackets are not primarily designed to apply deadly
> > force.  A firearm is, and I grant them all the respect they are due
> > as a result.
>
>Knives are primarily designed to cut flesh. It's all in how you use a
>tool.

But to claim that all tools are equally fearsome (or inoffensive), 
depending solely on the motive of the operator, is a facile 
generalization.  I am much more likely to be cautious/respectful/afraid of 
a loaded firearm than of a manila folder, if only because the potential 
injury (death or maiming vs. paper cut) is so obviously unequal.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV44bffoJpHq2XMx250001843b@hotmail.com>

Starship Insurance - Theft and Casualty - Freight and Cargo

Freight - Anything of value aboard a ship which belongs to another and is
being transported to a specific destination for a fee.  Insurance here is a
fairly simple matter, the shipper determines if they want to purchase
freight insurance.

Perhaps one or more crewmembers are qualified to write freight insurance
policies using the ships theft and casualty insurer as a kind of
super-carrier.  In addition or instead, the shipper could take out a freight
policy from a third party local insurer.  The premium would be a one time up
front payment for each shipment, and the payout would be an agreed upon
amount.  The ration of premium to payout would depend on risk conditions for
the trip (piracy, hazards, distance of travel.)

Cargo - Anything of value aboard a ship that belongs to the insured that is
not part of ships inventory.  It would be unlikely that cargo would be
covered under the ships theft and casualty policy.  In case of a claim of
theft, it would be too difficult to determine what the cargo really was, and
a problem to determine its value.  As the insurance company, do you payout
the value of the cargo at its loading point? Its value at its ultimate
destination? Its value at the nearest inhabited worls at the time of loss?
Its value at the insurance comapnies regional office at the subsector
capital?  Its value at insurance company headquarters on Capitol?  Insurance
company answer:  whichever is the lowest value. <g>

For these reasons I think you would see cargo insured in the same way as
freight.

Starports would tend to collect insurance agency offices in the same way
jails collect bail bond offices.  Many, especially on smaller worlds, would
probably be independent agents writing policies from a number of companies,
using whichever can best suit their customers needs.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:30:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:30:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020409220408.0118927AB3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002101c1e027$4452ada0$3cb18b90@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> > The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
> > Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
> > million or more - far greater than the examples given above.
>
> The camps didn't just kill Jews. Add in the homosexuals and gypsies and
> you get more than 10 million.

And all the others that found their way into them...

But even so, this, at most, might put the number higher than WWI.  The
Taiping Rebellion and WWII are still way ahead.

It also doesn't help that the camps were intimately associated with WWII,
and not really a distinct phenomenon.

You seem to be fairly consistently a couple of days behind on the list, BTW.
Are you just behind, or is it something to do with the exotic 19th Century
computers you use?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:31:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:31:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name things
References: <20020409184310.F206027A50@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002201c1e027$47ec4f20$3cb18b90@computer>

> From: "Hughes, Michael"
> Star Wars Name =
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born.

It gives some ugly consonant clusters.  Positively Zhodani in some cases.

I'm kind of getting used to the "br" in "Alabr", though.  It's obviously
pronounced like a shivering sound.  This isn't any more difficult than the
Chinese/Vietnamese "ng".  I might add a bit of emphasis to the "la", as it
makes pronouncing the "br" a bit easier.  So:  Al-la-br, rather than
Al-e-<mumble>.

I was just thinking what Doug Berry's first name would be:  Doube.  <Sings:
"Doube-doube-dou" with a Penguin accent.>  Yeah, that works.

Loren's would be a little sad:  Lorwi.  It sounds like he has a lisp.

Alabr Sucha
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ACQ and GT
Message-ID: <3CB4366A.11648.F02634@localhost>

A while back someone (was it you Doug) said they were using ACQ with 
GT. It's occurred to me to try this out too, and I was wondering how 
you dealt with the rule for spending AP for bonuses to skills, 
especially the limit for aiming (no more than 3xskill level). The 
obvious limit for this last would be the lower of the character's skill 
(in GT terms) or weapon Acc, but I was wondering how others dealt with 
this.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 19:09:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 18:09:10 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8D51C82.37945%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20409.174638.4l4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/6/02 8:42 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
>>> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
>>> build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.
>> 
>> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
>> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.
>
> ??
>
> Why permanent magnets.  A rialgun doesn't use magnetic fields in the manner
> of a coil gun.  We just have two parallel rails and the armature
> (projectile).  We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
> in the loop and acting on the armature.

There's a vertical magnetic field involved. Without it, you aren't
going to get nearly as high a velocity. 

Vertical magnetic field + sideways current flow -> forward motion. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 19:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 18:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20409.174638.4l4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D8E360.381D0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 6:46 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>>> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
>>> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.
>> 
>> ??
>> 
>> Why permanent magnets.  A rialgun doesn't use magnetic fields in the manner
>> of a coil gun.  We just have two parallel rails and the armature
>> (projectile).  We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
>> in the loop and acting on the armature.
> 
> There's a vertical magnetic field involved. Without it, you aren't
> going to get nearly as high a velocity.
> 
> Vertical magnetic field + sideways current flow -> forward motion.

I grabbed this of railgun.org:

Why are there no magnets above and below the rails to supplement the induced
field? - 
The induced field in a reasonable railgun is of a field strength on the
order of ~1 Tesla or more. A one Tesla electromagnet would be the size of a
Volkswagon and would probably need to be superconducting. [snip]
Additionally, the power for these extra magnets would either require more
capacitors or would be placed in series with the rails, adding unwanted
resistance and inductance to the circuit.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020410085426.A2419@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 10, 2002 08:54:26 AM
Message-ID: <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > Anyway, off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to
> > make this work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the
> > square-root of the inertial suppression factor.
> 
> If you're directly altering the strength of the interaction, the
> strength should drop off exactly in line with the mass reduction.  The
> square-root factor was when altering the *charge*.

Gah! I really should have taken that high school physics class.
 
> You should likewise reduce the strength of the strong and weak forces.

Okay... so I guess we need to suppose that all these forces get dropped
by the same factor.

> Now, just Planck's constant to deal with :)

Okay... I'm totally clueless, but:
E=hv, where h = planck's constant and v = frequency
(note: i have no idea what i'm taking about)
in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is that
if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we would prefer
that neither of them drop.

> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
> well.

Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
energy level of an electron in an atom?

I've heard that the atomic nucleus is held together by the interplay
between the strong and weak forces, the strong force keeping the
positively charged protons together while the weak force tries to
rip them apart. I suppose that since this idea of taming the quantum
foam should reduce both forces equally, the stability of the
nucleus would be uneffected (the effects of the strong & weak force
reductions should cancel out).

However, I'm not sure how to handle the problem of electrons, which
you mention above. But I'll try to tackle it anyway, so what follows
it totally off the cuff. I'm guessing that the electromagnetic force
keeps electrons attracted to the positively charged atomic nucleus
and repulsed by each other, hence accounting for their movements
(of course, this probably falls apart at some level, but bear with
me). Well, I'm just guessing here, but if their movements are determined
by the repulsive & attractive effects of the same force (electromagnetic),
then reducing that force should have no net effect, as reduction in
repulsion will be perfectly offset by the reduction in attraction.
In short, and I'm no physics major, so correct me if I'm wrong,
once again what I would expect is that these changes cancel out,
resulting in there being no need to change Planck's constant.

Am I totally wrong here? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17936@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Hey lads,

I am offering Mikey Trav (modified MT) up for re-assessment by my gaming
group and was wondering if some nice kind TMLers would test the Traveller
Generation component for me. 

Essentially it is a combo of Mega Trav and Chaosium generation mechanics
(before it was D20ed). It looks a little foreboding at first but the core
rules are only 10 pages long. 

Any comments/suggestions gratefully received. Ludowick, if you're still
TMLing I'd love it if you could have a look as well. Ditto Hyphen. 

If you are interested please contact me off list. 


PBEM:

I am thinking about running a PBEM D&D game for a friend. Does anyone know
of a How To website out there for running PBEM RPG sessions?

Thanks in advance, 

Mikey



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:54:19AM +1200
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net> <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:54:19AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Shakepear didn't have any copyrights on his work - they didn't exist at 
> that time. 

That was indeed part of my point...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
               --Socrates, c.  5th century BC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:24:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:24:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F217LltyKF5Q6JVW8s20001d6e3@hotmail.com>

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

In a flight on Whipsnadian hyperbole, I typed "... the 'brutally pragmatic' 
Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt."

     "Sorry, not *possible*. Not even the third Imperium has *that* kind of 
firepower."


Mr. Erickson,

     Yes, as your other posts illustrated, a planet is a VERY BIG place!  
Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the 
conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.

In another bout of hyperbole, I posted, "... the Ziro Sirka would have, 
could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it glowed."

     "Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
Millions, hundreds of millions."

     But of course.  Would you care to hazard a guess just what sort of 
firepower it would have taken for the ZS to remove Terra as a threat?  How 
many warheads, kinetic strikes, spinal mount hits, and plain old iron bombs 
would it have taken "de-industrialize" Terra?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:26:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:26:46 2002
Subject: [TML] ACQ and GT
In-Reply-To: <3CB4366A.11648.F02634@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409191152.009ffe70@mindspring.com>

At 12:56 PM 4/10/02 +1200, you wrote:
>A while back someone (was it you Doug) said they were using ACQ with
>GT. It's occurred to me to try this out too, and I was wondering how
>you dealt with the rule for spending AP for bonuses to skills,
>especially the limit for aiming (no more than 3xskill level). The
>obvious limit for this last would be the lower of the character's skill
>(in GT terms) or weapon Acc, but I was wondering how others dealt with
>this.

Wasn't me.. and I can't remember who did it.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204100230.DSP00729@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
>Sounds cool. What sort of groups do you get with it?
>

1/4 MOA.  But I have to do my work.  This is also where I 
stopped shooting from a bench, and did all of my work in the 
prone using either sling or bipod.  Laying on the ground is 
where this sort of rifle would be used, so I shot from the 
ground.

I get an acceptable score on the Rifle Ten, which is probably 
a more practical test of rifle skills, but you could probably 
shoot the same with an iron-sighted M1 Garand or even an M-
16.  Most practical rifle tests do not involve long range 
shooting, and I view most "long range" marksmanship courses 
of fire as too artificial to really measure much.  Aside from 
that, you can "practice" the test itself.

Maybe what we should all do is practice for the Kenyathalon, 
which is probably a fine test of field skill with a rifle.

I gave the rifle to the local SWAT team.  I think they're 
going to build a memorial to me.  Not the Simrad, however. 
But, it's been over a year now, and I'm reworking another 
Remington, but this time in .300 Win Mag.  In this case, 
however, I plan on sticking to 6x scopes, and shoot from my 
hind legs.

Why give it away?  Well, if you're getting a divorce, it pays 
not to have any firearms around, even if you've never made a 
threat.  The opposing lawyer is ready to make something out 
of it, even the mere presence, especially here in the 
People's Republic of Maryland.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [Fwd: FYI: Claim for Dentus/Regina]
Message-ID: <3CB3A651.5FE32F71@premier.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Here's a Landgrab claim from a JTAS subscriber:



-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.
--------------1C1D34570AB70063DD2A1374
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Return-Path: <itsjustabunny@netzero.net>
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Message-ID: <001801c1e038$d60189e0$7856f4d1@003905747>
From: "Videll" <itsjustabunny@netzero.net>
To: <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: FYI: Claim for Dentus/Regina
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 22:38:41 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

FYI. Thanks, Greg.

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Videll=20
To: landgrab@downport.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 10:20 PM
Subject: Claim for Dentus/Regina


I'd like to claim Dentus/Regina as part of the 'land grab' and ask to =
have the information I develop be hosted at Downport.com. Please let me =
know what additional information you require. Thanks a lot, Greg Videll.

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1E017.4C59AEA0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>FYI. Thanks, Greg.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:itsjustabunny@netzero.net"=20
title=3Ditsjustabunny@netzero.net>Videll</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:landgrab@downport.com"=20
title=3Dlandgrab@downport.com>landgrab@downport.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 09, 2002 10:20 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Claim for Dentus/Regina</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'd like to claim Dentus/Regina as part =
of the=20
'land grab' and ask to have the information I develop be hosted at =
Downport.com.=20
Please let me know what additional information you require. Thanks a =
lot, Greg=20
Videll.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1E017.4C59AEA0--



--------------1C1D34570AB70063DD2A1374--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:44:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:44:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20409.114950.6a1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409223004.02132f28@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:49 PM 4/9/2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>You are forgetting that with nuclear dampers, you can clean up the
>radioactive contamination *easily*. and unless truly amazing numbers of
>weapons are used, the actual *blast* damage will easily disappear on
>something as big as a planet.

This is a good point.  In fact, it's quite possible that the Imperial Corps 
of Engineers (or whatever the Traveller TL-15 equivalent of the present-day 
Army Corps of Engineers) does civil engineering and terraforming with 
nuclear weapons and meson artillery.  A starship armed with a large meson 
gun and a variety of nuclear missiles in bays, and supported by 
decontamination ships equipped with powerful nuclear dampers could - for 
example - clear and level an area of solid rock for a starport or carve out 
a deep water harbor on a coastline in a matter of hours, or dig a sea-level 
canal across Central America in a matter of days (and most of these times 
would be for detail work and decontamination).

>Which reminds me. Some day I need to sit down and try to figure out what 
>would be required to produce a "burned off" world such as appears in some 
>of Norton's books.

While I'm not familiar with Norton's "burned off" worlds (I don't tend to 
read Norton), the easiest way to completely clobber a planet with Traveller 
technology is to drop a few big rocks on it.  With Traveller maneuver 
drives, it should be relatively easy to nudge a number of asteroids in the 
100,000dton or bigger class into an intercept trajectory with a planet, and 
that should be all that's needed.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <000501c1df81$7b919c00$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20409.193923.3g6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>      "While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I
>> don't see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the
>> trick is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it."
>>
>>      Yes, seeding the star with enough tungsten and aiming correctly will
>> take time.  Perhaps the Darrians use multiple probes to increase their
>> chances?
>
> That is a pretty reasonable idea.  I figure they would be jumping in with
> a fleet, not just a squadron.  They probably have a couple of "probe" ships
> and multiple ships that can deliver the meson trigger.
>
> Plus, I also figure they would be dependent on relative surprise.  If they
> face a coordinated defense that is expecting them, they are probably best
> advised to try a different system in a week or so.

Why? 

They can jump in *anywhere* in the system that's outside the *stellar*
100D limit.

Say the two "beam" ships jump in roughly 120 degrees "ahead" and
"behind" the mainworld in it's orbit. And the "probe" ship jumps in
somewhere well to sunward of the mainworld.

Launch the probe, Fire the beams after it reaches the star. Jump out
after a few hours. 

Short of sheer luck, the system defense forces won't get within light
*minutes* of any of the Darrian ships.

That's what makes it such a scary weapon. You have to defend the entire
*system*, not just the planets. And you *can't*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:28 PM 4/9/2002, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
>Team finds a "disk" that contains the secret information. but it is not 
>compatible with what they have on the ship. Now how do they read the 
>information with out destroying the contents.

Good scenario hook.

IMTU, there are Imperial standards for data storage and media, mainly 
promulgated by the Scout Service.  This is not a standard in the sense that 
all equipment is required by law to support it, but rather a de-facto 
standard in the sense that the IISS X-boat system uses a specific set of 
formats to transfer messages.

It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the 
Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of 
pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding 
and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of 
languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate, 
lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications 
protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of 
getting messages into and out of the system.

Couple this with standards (IMTU published by the Travelers' Aid Society) 
for ship-to-ship and ship-to-planet communications (again via text, image, 
audio, video, and holo) and exchange of navigational data of various types, 
and you have a fairly robust infrastructure for communicating - should you 
desire to do so.

The net result should be similar to the modern Internet - any computer 
manufacturer who hopes to have any significant market share at all ensures 
that their equipment can read and write the standard media and formats, and 
can speak the standard protocols.  This doesn't prevent the manufacturers 
from building machines that also support proprietary encoding and 
formats.  However, if you're stuck with a data chip in one of those 
formats, your best bet is to try to find the machine that wrote it, and 
copy the data to a standard format.

In general, things Just Work, unless I (as referee) have a plot reason that 
they don't.  When they don't, When things do Just Work, no Computer skill 
is needed to read a file off of a data cartridge, or send an email message 
via X-boat.  Computer skill covers the ability to figure out what is wrong 
when things don't Just Work, and either write a program to fix the problem 
(or find a tool or other work around to the problem).  I would tend to say 
things like "you've got an Imperial standard data chip here, and on it is 
..." or "This data cartridge is proprietary to a LSP Model 11MP system - 
you need to find one of those to read what's on it.".


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:21:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:21:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:28 PM 4/9/2002, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
>Team finds a "disk" that contains the secret information. but it is not 
>compatible with what they have on the ship. Now how do they read the 
>information with out destroying the contents.

Good scenario hook.

IMTU, there are Imperial standards for data storage and media, mainly 
promulgated by the Scout Service.  This is not a standard in the sense that 
all equipment is required by law to support it, but rather a de-facto 
standard in the sense that the IISS X-boat system uses a specific set of 
formats to transfer messages.

It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the 
Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of 
pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding 
and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of 
languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate, 
lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications 
protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of 
getting messages into and out of the system.

Couple this with standards (IMTU published by the Travelers' Aid Society) 
for ship-to-ship and ship-to-planet communications (again via text, image, 
audio, video, and holo) and exchange of navigational data of various types, 
and you have a fairly robust infrastructure for communicating - should you 
desire to do so.

The net result should be similar to the modern Internet - any computer 
manufacturer who hopes to have any significant market share at all ensures 
that their equipment can read and write the standard media and formats, and 
can speak the standard protocols.  This doesn't prevent the manufacturers 
from building machines that also support proprietary encoding and 
formats.  However, if you're stuck with a data chip in one of those 
formats, your best bet is to try to find the machine that wrote it, and 
copy the data to a standard format.

In general, things Just Work, unless I (as referee) have a plot reason that 
they don't.  When they don't, When things do Just Work, no Computer skill 
is needed to read a file off of a data cartridge, or send an email message 
via X-boat.  Computer skill covers the ability to figure out what is wrong 
when things don't Just Work, and either write a program to fix the problem 
(or find a tool or other work around to the problem).  I would tend to say 
things like "you've got an Imperial standard data chip here, and on it is 
..." or "This data cartridge is proprietary to a LSP Model 11MP system - 
you need to find one of those to read what's on it.".


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <14d.c0033de.29e50df4@aol.com>

--part1_14d.c0033de.29e50df4_boundary
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> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
>for first name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
>town where you were born. 
>

   Okay, I'm game. Let's see...

   Why yumpin' yimminy, looks like I'm Kenmu Ersan :)

  -Ken-


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
<BR>&gt;for first name
<BR>&gt; 
<BR>&gt; First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
<BR>&gt;town where you were born. 
<BR>&gt;
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Okay, I'm game. Let's see...
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Why yumpin' yimminy, looks like I'm Kenmu Ersan :)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_14d.c0033de.29e50df4_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 22:10:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Tue Apr  9 21:10:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>

> Star Wars Name =
>
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born.

Hmm..  Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
Using your equation, I'd be:  Shasr Baden

But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

Which for me yields:  Anemet Slabar
I dunno, they're both kinda cool.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Your lack of Pants disturbs me
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 22:19:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr  9 21:19:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <20020410.001437.-391371.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Star Wars Name =
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first 
> name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town 
> where you were born. 

Perho Yaneu?

(yuck!)


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 22:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr  9 21:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8d974f770c0@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:08 PM +1200 4/9/02, Frank Pitt wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote :
>>  While I haven't followed the thread far enough to
>>  follow all the  issues, I think there is a point
>>  to be made here.  One can't just assume insurance
>>  company will force any security measure you can
>>  think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be
>>  unpopular and, unless the savings in costs is
>>  _significant_, there  won't be enough
>>  of a change in premiums to compensate.
>
>The insurance comany won't change it's premiums.
>
>There will just be a clause in the contract, similar to the one
>that exists with most vehicle insurance now, that if your vehicle
>was not warranted at the time of the accident, or it was being
>driven by an unlicensed driver, they won't pay out.
>
>They won't even bother inspecting (or telling you about it) until
>_after_ you make the claim. Then they will ask you for your
>warrant and masters ticket, and if you can't produce them they
>will refuse to pay out.


But we are talking about security measure that are intrusive enough 
that the are a hassle to the day to day operation of a ship.  Some 
people are going to know about them.  Unless they are important 
enough to make a _significant_ change in costs, another company will 
be able to draw at least some customers away buy not having such 
intrusive requirements.

>The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
>required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
>may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
>starport will do it (for important safety and financial reasons,
>would you want an unwarranted vehicle approaching an extremely
>expensve space station?), there won't be any real choice except
>for the captains to take the risk of not doing it and not go to
>the better starports

The presumption is that every insurance company will have such 
requirements.  That requires that you show that such requirements 
make a significant difference in insurance costs.  Otherwise 
insurance companies have no reason to push unpopular requirements.

However, if you can show that such requirements are needed to keep 
theft down to a reasonable level, then you don't need to invoke 
insurance companies requiring it.

In the end, invoking insurance companies is not a way of justifying 
regulations that don't have other basis.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:01:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:01:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409141022.A18068@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410003144.027e33e0@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:10 PM 4/9/02 -0600, you wrote:
>But that doesn't matter.  Free software is not about sticking it to
>Bill Gates; it's about free software.  Gaming is not about sticking to
>to gaming companies (they're generally good people); it's about
>gaming.

Okay.  But my original point that you were responding to was that there are 
unintended consequences regardless of original motives.  I want to make 
sure people who may not be aware of those consequences are informed.

> > I don't know if your "But that is...your problem" remark was
> > intended to sound quite as callous as it came across to me in print,
> > but that's just me, and as you say that's my problem.
>
>I didn't mean it to sound callous, more as a statement of fact.

Okay.  From reading your various emails, I am quite sure you're a nice 
person.  I guess it still sounds a bit callous to me, although it is 
motivated from a concern for the general welfare of all humans everywhere, 
which is certainly not callous.  It is also clear you've spent more than a 
casual amount of time in life pondering such things and you're determined 
not to be a cruel person or any such thing.  I respect you, or anyone else 
who takes a similar position, for taking that position.

I just don't want the script kiddie types piling on the bandwagon.  Or the 
hordes of people who do something because "it's cool".

Respectable Middle-Aged Lady:  "Young man, what are you rebelling against?"
Brando's character:  "Whattaya got?"

But again, people we know (even if only through this mailing list) will be 
directly hurt by the success of competing products.  And the difference is 
those people do this for a living and the competing product at issue would 
be done for fun as a hobby by people with deeper pockets.  Which side of 
that choice is taken by Socrates or Aristotle is only of intellectual 
interest to me.  I just ask myself if that's the result I want.


>Not that I'd directly compete with any of the above.  I write
>software, not supplements.  And yes, my hope is for my GPLed
>Traveller-compatible software to enable a lot of other programmers to
>write more Traveller-compatible software.  And it doesn't bother me
>that this will make it more difficult for others to profit from
>proprietary Traveller-compatible software.  Why should it, any more
>than it bothers Stephen King that he's made it more difficult for
>other to profit from horror novels?

Huh?  I was unaware of your efforts in this area, and of travlib.  Will 
wield the legendary Sword of Google and get to work on that once email is 
caught up, the cats are fed, and I've had a night's sleep.  Please feel 
free to beat me repeatedly around the head and shoulder area with a 
badminton racquet until I follow up on that if it slips.  :->

Why should it bother Stephen King?  Because he should have an ounce of 
sympathy for all the other people out there who are his sisters and 
brothers in spirit: they are compelled to write and be read by others.  Why 
should he have an ounce of sympathy for anyone, especially strangers?  No 
special reason.  It isn't the law, I don't think he will go to heaven or 
hell based on that or anything.  I just think he should.

Why should it bother you?  That's different.  You aren't personally 
dominating an industry so much that other people are being squeezed 
out.  It shouldn't bother you in the least.

I'm not trying to quash all self publishers, hobby publishers, or 
open-source creation of anything.  I'm not trying to call it unethical.  My 
message is that there will be unintended consequences that are undoable if 
open source RPG design really takes off.  And you can't go back home 
again.  People should go ahead and make their own decisions.  Adult, 
responsible, informed decisions.

I'd love to see open source game design of different kinds of games become 
a healthy and thriving activity.  I'd also love to see the people who do 
good work, but can only do so when they are able to devote full time 
attention to it, be healthy and thriving.  There is the forest.  Somewhere 
on its other side is a happy meadow where both things are happening.  There 
are many paths through the forest, and many of those paths go somewhere 
else besides that happy meadow.  As one of my old characters (a really 
reprehensible character) used to say, "Ah'll draw us a map."  That is, I'd 
_like_ to have a map before entering that forest.

--Laning
Q:  What's the best way to make a small fortune in the wargaming industry?
A:  Start with a large one.
      -An old but true saw.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:56 PM 4/9/02 -0600, you wrote:
> > We really should pay someone like Loren or Doug a LOT more money for
> > their work.
>
>Well, it's all a matter of what the market will bear.  Software pays
>better because there's more demand.  RPGs pay worse because there's
>not as much.

The above statement tends to be true but the real world is not as simple 
nor as true as that.  It only becomes a matter of what the market will bear 
when the market is huge and liquid and the product is 'commoditized' as 
they call it.  And even then are problems with preventing marketplace 
manipulation.  I do not think that our free market system is truly free nor 
is it perfectly efficient.  Prices for lots of things fluctuate wildly due 
to [long string of complex and often silly reasons] rather than any 
fundamental economic cause.  I do not believe in placing blind faith in our 
so-called capitalism (which isn't) any more than I would place blind faith 
in the former Soviet so-called communism (which wasn't).  Now that was some 
good music (Blind Faith, that is).


> > What I would be willing to pay for is a more well-thought out
> > game.
>
>That's part of the value add one gets with a professional editor.
>Most people cannot properly edit their own work.  I wonder if it might
>not be possible for there to be money in taking freely-available work
>and compiling it onto one large work.  Slap a compilation copyright
>over the whole thing (to prevent others from just grabbing it up), but
>the individual pieces are still free for anyone.

There's probably some money, but even less than in being a line editor 
now.  It would certainly be a useful contribution.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:12:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>
References: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
 <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
 <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl used the sig:
>Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
>food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
>parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
>they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
>                --Socrates, c.  5th century BC

One of several great sigs you employ, Mister Robert Uhl.  :->

Socrates really didn't much like people who he couldn't keep under his 
thumb, did he?  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:15:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:15:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <20020410051456.C94E127ABE@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/10/02 at 02:08 PM,  "Shane Slamet" <s.slamet@bom.gov.au> said:

>> Star Wars Name =
>>
>> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>>
>> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
>> were born.

>Hmm..  Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
>Using your equation, I'd be:  Shasr Baden

>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name First 3
>letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

>Which for me yields:  Anemet Slabar
>I dunno, they're both kinda cool.

Either way you have the same number of letters in every name. How
about...

First name: The first 1d6 letters of your first name + the first 1d6
letters of your last name.

Last name: The first 1d6 leters of your mother's maiden name + the
first 1d6 letter of the city where you were born.

Jamere Rit
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:26:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:26:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204092104.DSD06042@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011514.027e7ec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 05:04 PM 4/9/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Leonard Erickson asks
> >
> >"the rifle"?
>
>Remington 700 Police DM, in .308. (Comes with HS Precision
>stock with integral aluminum bedding block). Action
>reworked/firing pin replaced with titanium pin, barrel
>replaced with heavy contour Douglas Premium Match barrel,
>Timney trigger, Leupold Mark V M3 10x scope with mil-dot
>reticle, NEAR one-piece scope base optimized to get the most
>elevation adjustement out of the scope, Vortex flash
>suppressor, bipod, Simrad KN-250 GEN III night vision with
>adapter to fit over Leupold Mark V.
>
>Some were frightened just by seeing it, some by going to the
>range with me and *seeing* it.

So we're talking about people who are comfortable enough to go shooting at 
a rifle range, but want to politely form a covert vigilante gang to stop 
you from being around their place of work if you have a really nice target 
rifle.  People call me weird, but I think "people" need to look in the 
mirror sometimes.

--Laning
"A rifle is only a tool. It's a hard heart that kills." -Gunnery Sergeant 
Hartman in 'Full Metal Jacket' by Gustav Hasford, Michael Herr, and Stanley 
Kubrick


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:27:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:27:22 2002
Subject: [TML] When too much time occurs...
Message-ID: <3CB3CC38.F01EE8A9@mail.cswnet.com>

Dig out the Monopoly game...
...locate Vilani by Lonnie:

http://tribble.dreamhost.com/vilani.html

and convert those street names to vilani!!!

Baltic Avenue---Barikune Barik
Conneticut Avenue---Kaanerikuru Nekaan
Atlantic Avenue---Arukanirikune Rukanir
Boardwalk---Buriduurkibu 
[this one I fudged-stuck an "I" in for the last name"
Luxury Tax---Ukukashuriikasharu Kukashurii
Free Parking---Biriiginikira Mibirii
B&O Railroad---Baaduurukar Ibi&aa

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:34:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:34:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <14d.c0033de.29e50df4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEONGFAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Urk

Johlo Nornew no like

Grunt


> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
>for first name 
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
>town where you were born. 
> 

  Okay, I'm game. Let's see... 

  Why yumpin' yimminy, looks like I'm Kenmu Ersan :) 

 -Ken- 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:44:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:44:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:12:37AM -0400
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409234307.A19761@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:12:37AM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> The above statement tends to be true but the real world is not as simple 
> nor as true as that.

What I mean is that man, viewed as an organism, seems not to value RPG
line editors as highly as information architects (but, e.g., higher
than garbagemen).  That valuation has no moral meaning, of course.
It's just that there aren't enough people willing to pay enough to pay
line editors what IT people get.  Would _you_ pay $130 per supplement?

> I do not think that our free market system is truly free nor is it
> perfectly efficient.

Oh, it's certainly not free, which fact leads to numerous injustices
and inefficiencies.  But it's still a market.  _Every_ economy is a
market, no matter how it may try to disguise the fact.

> There's probably some money, but even less than in being a line editor 
> now.  It would certainly be a useful contribution.

Well, it's commonly accepted (among those who think about these
things) that the primary service provided by content providers is
filtering of the dregs.  The Web allowed every man to be a publisher.
And a million million screaming <blink> tags were born.

Filtering of the 5.99 billion morons in the world is an editor's job,
one that most do quite admirably.  Supporting that is a useful thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
           --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:14:40AM -0400
References: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost> <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net> <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost> <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409234739.B19761@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:14:40AM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> One of several great sigs you employ, Mister Robert Uhl.  :->

Thanks for the compliment.  I've rather a large amount of them, to
tell the truth.  I've 264, which are randomly assigned by a Perl
script attached to a named pipe.  Many, I'm afraid, are longer than
the so-called McQ limit (4 lines), but I don't particularly care; it's
a relic of a bygone era.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
This is why they complain--they don't _want_ to have brains.  Those lead
to thoughts, and thoughts cause only suffering.  Thus, by asking them to
think, you are inflicting the torments of the damned on the previously
blissfully ignorant.        --John Rowat, in alt.tech-support.recovery

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:54:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:54:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <200204092132.DSF01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410014708.027e3070@pop.wizard.net>

John T Kwon quoting and responding to Sam D:
> >I think most Marines can hit a torso sized target at 500
> >yards about 100% of the time.
>
>Marines yes, Army infantry, no way.  And that assumes that
>your enemy is standing in the open.  Most experienced
>soldiers go into the prone.  Once you're in the prone, the
>bolt action in the hands of a sniper has the advantage,
>because you can hit grapefruit-sized targets very reliably at
>300 to 400 yards, and most of the time at 500.  Take those
>same Marines and try to have them hit the grapefruit at 500.
>There's probably a Distinguished Marksman in there, isn't
>there?
I couldn't agree more.  I am a Marine who could hit consistently score 5s 
at 500 yards with iron sights, but getting that little grapefruit-sized 
circle is a much bigger challenge.  If I had stayed in the Corps, I think I 
would have continued improving at hitting those bullseyes but it would have 
taken some more years.  And then presbyopia and astigmatism afflicted my 
vision somewhat starting in my mid- to late-30s.  It would have taken years 
to get pretty damned good (for someone who isn't a sniper) and then there 
would have been a small window of quality before declining vision screwed 
that up.  Although it's entirely possible that most of my vision problems 
are related to going into computers during my 30s and spending _way_ too 
much time in front of monitors.



>The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my
>rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these,
>and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get
>him without losing half the team or more."

Apparently he forgot the correct tactical employment of smoke 
grenades.  And maybe his boys don't have those armored gunshields to hide 
behind.  Or if it really comes down to it, use a .50 cal or 20 mm on an APC 
belonging to a nearby Army or Marine unit.  Although I always wondered 
about using wire-guided ATGMs with a standoff spike for those kinds of 
guys, heh.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:56:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <20020409.225614.-2687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 00:14:54 -0500 "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
writes:
>
> 
> Either way you have the same number of letters in every name. How
> about...
> 
> First name: The first 1d6 letters of your first name + the first 1d6
> letters of your last name.
> 
> Last name: The first 1d6 leters of your mother's maiden name + the
> first 1d6 letter of the city where you were born.
> 
> Jamere Rit
> -- 

Oh, I like the options. though my original - Barst Cotor is cool.
Let's see - 5,3,4,1 - Ooops, there's only four letters in my first name.

= Barista Corrt

Not bad

Barst Cotor - Barbarian
Barista Corrt - Other - Barmaid


Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:02:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:02:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <20020410.001437.-391371.2.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204100809390.28175-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

> Star Wars Name =
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first 
> name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town 
> where you were born. 

Mikpa Auhel.

Hilarious...

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410003144.027e33e0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:02:24AM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020409141022.A18068@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020410003144.027e33e0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020410001141.C19761@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:02:24AM -0400, laning wrote:
>
> From reading your various emails, I am quite sure you're a nice
> person.

I'd like to think so, but I've no idea.  Can any man judge himself?

> I just don't want the script kiddie types piling on the bandwagon.  Or the 
> hordes of people who do something because "it's cool".

I'll agree there.  In many ways, popularity is the bane of any set of
ideas.  Witness the twits in computers, the twits in politics, the
twits in religion &c.  Computers, politics and religon are not
inherently twit-ful, but they are plagued by twits nonetheless.

> Huh?  I was unaware of your efforts in this area, and of travlib.

Travlib is a GPLed library intended to, eventually, model the entire
spectrum of the Traveller universe, from galxies to characters.  Right
now, it represents astronomical things only (galaxies, sectors,
subsectors, systems, stars, planets, belts and moons).  It's written
in C, using the gtk+ toolkit for object orientation, with Scheme
bindings using guile to enable easy scripting.

I'm currently working on two projects.  The first is the addition of
First In generation rules, with the code written in Scheme (which I
feel is uniquely suited to this sort of thing); eventually I will be
implementing CT rules as well, although internal data representation
will always be in GT terms, which are for most cases more granular.
The second project is travtrack, a GNOME application which will enable
the user to edit said data (and thus track his Traveller campaigns,
hence the name).  I've got a galaxy browser which is almost
functional...

The site is <http://travtrack.sf.net/>.  It's not over-nice, mostly
because there's not a whole lot to show yet.  My beta version of
travlib is done; travtrack is very much a work-in-progress.  The
application which comes with travlib is called travshell: it is a
Guile interpreter with travlib linked in by default.  This means that
you can write:

(define galaxy (trav-galaxy-new))
(trav-mapobject-set-name galaxy "My First Galaxy")
(define sector (trav-sector-new))
(trav-mapobject-set-name sector "A Beginner Sector")
(trav-mapobject-add-child galaxy sector)

And things like that.  Right now the library using an XML-like schema
for printing data to a file and reading it back, but I'm planning on a
Scheme special forms interface, so that one might write:

(trav-galaxy
#:name "My First Galaxy"
#:comments "The first galaxy I ever created"
  (trav-sector  #:name "A Beginner Sector")
  (trav-sector #:name "Another One"
    (trav-subsector)
    (trav-subsector)))

And so on.  As someone has said, XML is S-expressions with a painful
syntax.  But that will be a long while from now.

> Why should it bother Stephen King?  Because he should have an ounce
> of sympathy for all the other people out there who are his sisters
> and brothers in spirit: they are compelled to write and be read by
> others.

What I mean is that he has raised the standards of his profession
(personally, I loathe him and his work, but his was an example which
leapt to mind); the sympathy he should have for others less able than
he--and who have been harmed because the bar has so been raised--is
much the same sympathy that any of us has for any failure.  Sympathy,
yes.  Aid, certainly.  But no-one would ever say I write good horror
(not that I wish too): that's just a fact of life, in roughly the same
way that I will never win a race.

> Why should it bother you?  That's different.  You aren't personally 
> dominating an industry so much that other people are being squeezed 
> out.  It shouldn't bother you in the least.

Well, open source enables that sort of domination.  Linux Torvalds
wrote an OS.  Tanenbaum no longer, I think, sells many copies of
Minix.  Even the BSD projects are being relegated to the status of
footnote to history (unfairly, in many ways, but in just as many ways
it's their own fault).  It's deuced difficult to compete against free
software.  And by free I don't mean price; I mean freedom.

Regarding those who are threatened thereby, I can only say that I
don't make my living in software.  I'm a Unix system administrator; I
program in my free time.  I cannot do what I like (partially because
what I like includes freeing the product).  When I was younger I spit
chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it
sometime).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Interestingly, most Unix utilities have a command line option which will
cause the system to rip the user's legs off and beat them to death with
the soggy ends.  This is often the default behaviour.    --Bruce Murphy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F164o8C7wyfwjHNuQuN000048cd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410020404.027d89a0@pop.wizard.net>

At 08:59 PM 4/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off some 
>M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and issuing them at 
>the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max 500 yards?) and 
>sniper (800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the guy with the M14 the 
>"designated marksman" or something like that.  The guy who wrote the 
>article I read did not like the idea, because of the the difficulties 
>associated with the accurized M14s as stated above and standardization 
>issues, but from what I understand these were deployed to Afghanistan so 
>we should be getting reports soon.

Glad to hear we're doing that.  It's basically the latest variation on 
something we've at least theoretically been doing for many decades.  Each 
four-man fire team during my time in had one guy designated as the 'sniper' 
or 'marksman' or something.  Can't remember the proper term with any 
certainty.  The problem with that (during my time in) was that the position 
usually had more to do with seniority than marksmanship ability.

Ever since at least WW1, our tactical commanders have tried to concentrate 
a small unit of their best shooters to be available for various 
tasks.  Full-blown official snipers are scarce at even the regiment 
level.  So regiments, battalions, companies, and even platoons have tried 
to single out their most skilled guys for use in this regard.  There have 
been various times when these tactical efforts became a formal part of 
official TO&Es and doctrine.  Other times they were officially disapproved 
and commanding officers had to be more or less surreptitious and subversive 
to do this.  This long-term tendency is probably partly influenced by our 
old role (inherited directly from the British Royal Marines, so it goes 
back to more than two centuries) of providing snipers in the rigging aboard 
sailing ships.

These efforts by tactical commanders have often been mingled with efforts 
to create their own private "Life Guards" unit, if you will, and a recon 
capability.  Commanders like to have a reserve of best-quality troops to 
influence the battle with.  A major conflict within the Marine Corps since 
it is a fundamental axiom of our existence that all Marines are elite and 
none are more elite than others.  It was the major argument against the 
Marine Raider battalions (which were eliminated) and against the Force 
Recon battalions (which were eliminated or nearly so a dozen times in fifty 
years), and it doesn't look to be going away although Force Recon seems to 
be in pretty good health these days.  I have no problem with it and think 
it is a good thing.  I never noticed other Marines getting their feelings 
hurt over it either.  It seems to me more of a theological debate between 
passionate followers of different faiths than anything else.  Or possibly a 
fear that the competition among officers to get their "ticket punched" by 
an assignment to Force Recon was just too exclusive a competition.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:22:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:22:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F36GB9wIWXLU9778dvM000038ae@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022011.027e0130@pop.wizard.net>

At 09:18 PM 4/9/02 +0000, Sam D wrote:
 >>>
Did you guys see that a female teenage Marine won the national matches 
(with an M16) a few years ago?
<<<

OORAH!!


>The .223 is a fairly accurate round, on par with most cartridges.  The 308 
>is theoretically more accurate.  It is certainly more resistant to the 
>wind.  But as far as semi-auto platforms, there is nothing better than 
>Stoner's design.  Put a 308 in an M16 platform, like the AR-10 or SR-25, 
>and you get outstanding accuracy.

I've wondered for a long time about getting an AR-15 or similar chambered 
for .308.  How does it perform on full auto?  (I imagine it has issues with 
the barrel overheating more than a heavier weapon would.)  Rapid semi?  Is 
there even such an animal sold commercially?

Not that I have any actual use for such a thing.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D89BAB.38054%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408135946.02824dd0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>

At 01:22 PM 4/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
>It should be noted that analysis of casualties in the Vietnam war showed the
>5.56x45mm to be 11% more likely to produce a casualty (lethal) than
>7.62x51mm.  Of course the NVA and VC may have just dragged off all the
>bodies with 7.62 holes in them to confise us poor Americans.

Colt was probably paying them a bounty for the corpses with the big bullets 
in them.  Damned megacorps!


> > Including poorer
> > accuracy.
>
>What?!  The M-16 has consistently proved to have a smaller MOA than the M-14
>since adoption and up to the present day.

I am not equipped to wage a war of statistical analyses, and will 
abandon.  Even surrender, if I must.  But let the record show that I  trust 
statistical studies and proving grounds testing only so far.  Anecdotal 
evidence from actual field users of my acquaintance is not convincing (to 
me) for either side of the argument.

I also remind everyone that all other things (like velocity and sectional 
density) being equal, the more massive bullet will penetrate cover better 
and that most troops you're shooting at will seek cover if they're not 
already using it.  Big bullets still have their advantages.

And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting 
results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting 
dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or 
.308?  Or something else?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:39:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:39:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17936@r1clex01.cbr.defe
 nce.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410023924.027e4ad0@pop.wizard.net>

At 10:46 AM 4/10/02 +1000, Mikey (Michael Hughes) wrote:
>PBEM:
>
>I am thinking about running a PBEM D&D game for a friend. Does anyone know
>of a How To website out there for running PBEM RPG sessions?

I was thinking there's a need for the same thing.  Or at least will soon be 
a need.  Perhaps interested parties should form a new mailing list, and 
person or persons on that list be appointed to cull together an FAQ for WWW 
posting?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starship Insurance
In-Reply-To: <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410025025.027e56d0@pop.wizard.net>

After posting information of good pragmatic value to referees, Bill Scheets 
said:

>More on insurance later, if there is sufficient interest.

Keep up the good work!  The faint whirring sound you just heard was my hard 
drive as I saved your full post.

And yes, that's how I remember it working with seat belts.  Then safety 
harnesses.  Probably air bags before not much longer.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 01:10:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 00:10:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20409.111435.4V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410025314.02b56df0@pop.wizard.net>

Leonard says, regarding nuclear warfare:
>If they have reason to *expect* that sort of thing?
>
>A *lot*. Especially given that once nuclear damper tech is available,
>decontamination is a matter of raising the decay rate of the fallout
>and other contaminated material as high as you can without generating
>more heat than you want to deal with.
>
>A planet is a *big* place.
>
>There's also the fact that if you do it to them, you'd better expect
>them to return the favor.

Let us not forget that if the planet is an industrialized world, then most 
of the people and other interesting targets will have conveniently 
clustered themselves together in cities or military bases.  Five or ten 
thousand warheads with 50- to 100-megaton yield that reach their urban, 
suburban, and unhardened military targets will pretty much take that planet 
out of the battle for at least one generation.  Of course, their 
spacefaring navy will not be impacted by this immediately.  And, as you 
say, they'll be looking to return the favor.  I'm just picking random 
numbers, but numbers very easily within the capability of the Ziru Sirka or 
any of the Imperiums.

Sure, there will still remain plenty of places on the planetary surfaces 
that are fairly livable.  But the good harbors, river junctions, mountain 
passes, and natural resource sites will tend to be pretty 
unlivable.  Infrastructure and manufacturing capabilities will be all but 
destroyed, and the people to repair and rebuild will mostly be dead.

If everyone gets a chance to hide in good bunkers first, at least you can 
have huge chunks of population survive the immediate attack.  They'll still 
have to deal with the disabled infrastructure, which will lead to a lot of 
starvation.  Most of the facilities needed to repair and rebuild will still 
be destroyed.

I have too vague an image of how canonical nuclear dampers will precisely 
behave to really describe all how they will help, and what will be beyond 
their help.  It probably varies quite a bit from one referee's TU to 
another's.  I'd guess some referees only have them work if they're focused 
on ground zero at the time of the explosion, while others let you do 
whatever kind of prevention and clean up sounds theoretically within the 
limits of such a technology.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 01:18:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 00:18:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410031600.02c08230@pop.wizard.net>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link:
>I have been making notes on a run for my
>upcoming rebirth Traveller game. Team finds a "disk" that contains the
>secret information. but it is not compatible with what they have on the
>ship. Now how do they read the information with out destroying the
>contents.


I suggest referring to Web pages for professional data recovery 
companies.  Like On Track Data Recovery.
www.ontrack.com but beware of relatively heavy graphics and java scripting.

Western Digital's Web site (mostly known as a hard drive maker) is where I 
usually go to get a bunch of hyperlinks to data recovery firms when I need 
to refer people.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 01:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 00:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20409.224111.2G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Derek Wildstar writes:
>> At 03:46 PM 4/8/2002, Sam Draper wrote:
>>>I have read in tests that little darts at high velocities are
>>>remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do little
>>>tissue damage.
>> 
>>  From what I recall reading, the 60's era Army tests with
>> high-velocity flechettes in the SPIW program.  This weapon was
>> proposed by AAI, and fired 65 gram steel flechette at high velocity
>> (about 4800fps).
>
> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).
> A 65 gram projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.

65 grams is about 2.3 *ounces*. Ouch.

4800 fps = ~1460 m/s. 

Yeek! That's almost 70 kiloJoules muzzle energy! 

Yeah, that'd make folks go splat.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041108.027fb7c0@pop.wizard.net>

>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

That makes me Ingaty Pollan.  Sounds Hungarian or something.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] News from Delphi
Message-ID: <LAW2-F147TrBoe2U8QV000064a3@hotmail.com>

Hi,

I was wondering how is the Delphi history project going, I looked at their 
site, but it hasn't been updated since 2000.

Graham

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <14d.c0033de.29e50df4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020410031345.009c9260@minn.net>

At 11:39 PM 4/9/2002 EDT, you wrote:
>> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname  
>>for first name 
>>  
>> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the  
>>town where you were born.  

Leslie Allen Keller (Mom remarried) St. Charles (or Saint Charles),
Illinois, a suburb of Chicago.

Leska Dostc
Leska Dosai
Leska Dochi
Lesba Dostc
Lesba Dosai
Lesba Dochi

Cool...


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041108.027fb7c0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>
 <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020410032033.009cc4c0@minn.net>

At 04:12 AM 4/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
>>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name
>
>That makes me Ingaty Pollan.  Sounds Hungarian or something.
>
>--Laning

Leslie Allen Keller (Mom remarried) St. Charles (or Saint Charles),
Illinois, a suburb of Chicago.

Lieler Keldon or, Lietes Batdon




=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409234739.B19761@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
 <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
 <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
 <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
 <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041435.027f87e0@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl quoteth me and respondeth:
>On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:14:40AM -0400, laning wrote:
> >
> > One of several great sigs you employ, Mister Robert Uhl.  :->
>
>Thanks for the compliment.  I've rather a large amount of them, to
>tell the truth.  I've 264, which are randomly assigned by a Perl
>script attached to a named pipe.  Many, I'm afraid, are longer than
>the so-called McQ limit (4 lines), but I don't particularly care; it's
>a relic of a bygone era.

Keep up the good work.  :->

>--
>Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>This is why they complain--they don't _want_ to have brains.  Those lead
>to thoughts, and thoughts cause only suffering.  Thus, by asking them to
>think, you are inflicting the torments of the damned on the previously
>blissfully ignorant.        --John Rowat, in alt.tech-support.recovery

Tech support professionals are often more interested in proving their 
intellectual or genetic superiority over the "untermenschen" they "help" 
than in actually fixing problems.  The culture of elitism and braggadocio 
gets inculcated in many tech support reps before they even acquire skill in 
their primary job functions.  Reps who are confined solely to email support 
tend to be the worst.  I speak from personal observation of reps from 
several different companies, but confine my opinions to first and second, 
and sometimes third, echelons of support.

I will now prove my point by bragging.  During my tenure as an AOL tech 
support rep, I was documented to be one of the very top few best at 
actually fixing problems of any rep who has ever been in their database.  I 
rule.  And one of the primary causes of my success was treating each 
customer like a reasonable human being dealing with a problem completely 
unfamiliar to them.  Listen intently, don't talk down.  Think about what 
the actual problem is and how to fix it, don't waste mental bandwidth on 
looking for evidence to support my prejudice that all customers are 
inherently mentally defective.  If I'm so damned superior, what the hell am 
I doing working as a mere tech rep?  Most of the customers I talked to were 
being paid better than most of the reps I worked with.  Now who is the 
dummy?  :->

[And please don't anyone start with that empty and worn out "AOL sucks" 
crap.  Unless you've worked on their dev teams and are familiar with their 
host and network architectures.  And don't start with "AOL tech reps aren't 
real tech reps" unless you've worked with me or one of many, many other 
individuals I could name.  When you have that many thousands of reps, some 
of them are going to be damned good.  If you're still inclined to insult us 
after that, fine.  You'll probably be singing very different types of 
insults though.  I've my own stack of insults for AOL but it's more about 
wasted business opportunities, managers who are empire builders, and 
rampant cronyism.]

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 03:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 02:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020410085426.A2419@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020410191917.B3737@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is
> that if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we
> would prefer that neither of them drop.

Yes, that's one effect.  For example, light photons have sufficient
energy to cause certain chemical changes in pigments in the eye;
that's how we see.

If the chemical energies are a hundred times lower and Planck's
constant is unchanged, a light photon doesn't just affect sensitive
pigments, it rips electrons out of stable molecules and breaks
chemical bonds.  That's what we normally call "ionising radiation".

We can't just use light that has a hundred times lower frequency,
because it has a hundred times longer wavelength.  OK, I guess we can,
but it involves changing the speed of light...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 03:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Wed Apr 10 02:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041435.027f87e0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


AOL *does* suck.  I was a member back in 1996-97.  I had nothing but
problems with that wretched service.  My personal information was sold
to all sorts of bulk-emailers, spammers and porn sites.  The 45 minute
"click on this" to stay online button was a pain in the ass.  If you
minimized AOL and ran a browser, you didn't even get the warning..you
just got disconnected.   If you started AOL minimized, you'd get one of
their "click on this yes or no" advertisements and could not click on it
to finish logging on..so you had to disconnect and restart the whole
program.

Downloading was a joke.  You had to sit at your computer and wait for
the 45 minute button or lose the download.  (downloading the demo to
Wing Commander: Prophesy (69megs) was terrible).

I had to deal with a ton of unwanted porn mail and spam.  I had to deal
with the above frustrations.  I had to deal with support people
(obviously I never got you) who were clueless.

I had just paid for a month's time when I called up and said I wanted to
terminate my membership.  The person on the phone explained that they
could not refund my money and that I had almost a full month left.  I
said it didn't matter, I just wanted out.  So he turned my account off
and that was that.

2 months later, I got a bill from AOL saying I owed them for a month's
services.  So I had to call them and explain that I wasn't a member and
had quit in good standing.  The person on the phone looked into it and
agreed it was a mistake and told me it would be taken care of.

1 month later I get a second notice in the mail, demanding I pay my bill
or else.  Again I call them up and again they apologize and fix the
problem.

1 month after that, I get a notice saying that they are forwarding my
bill to a collection agency.  I call up and this time I tell them that
if AOL ever mails me again or contacts me in any way, I will sue.  The
person on the phone was very apologetic and promised I would never be
bothered again.

I wasn't.

A few months later, my mother calls me on the phone sounding concerned.
She asks, "Is everything ok?"  I replied to her, "yeah, why do you ask?"
She then tells me that AOL sent a past-due notice to her in my behalf
and that she paid it.

So AOL managed to *steal* money from my family that they had no right
to.  To this day I still get their stupid free CDs in the mail.

There are very VERY few things in this life I hate more than AOL.  If I
could destroy AOL and get away with it, I promise you I would.  They
have made an enemy of me for life.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 03:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Wed Apr 10 02:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410031600.02c08230@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <001701c1e075$33bf6020$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----


I suggest referring to Web pages for professional data recovery 
companies.  Like On Track Data Recovery.
www.ontrack.com but beware of relatively heavy graphics and java
scripting.

Western Digital's Web site (mostly known as a hard drive maker) is where
I 
usually go to get a bunch of hyperlinks to data recovery firms when I
need 
to refer people.

--Laning



Use an oscilloscope.  Read the magnetic wavelength off the platters and
subtract the perfect part of the signal.  What you have left is data.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <200204101125.DTH00304@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>
>= Barista Corrt
>

Sounds like you work at Starbucks.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gearhead Goodies: couple of rocket missile books
Message-ID: <3CB3DC6C.16284.140D91@localhost>

friend of mine has been flying model rockets for years, and he was showing me some 
blueprints and a  couple of books on rockets and missiles. 

www.arapress.com
the Spaceship Handboook and Rockets of the World



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGGCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> >
> >A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
> >bone from a walrus penis.  See
> >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html
>
So when I tell my girlfriend that I've got a "Boner",
I'm really speaking Eskimo?

-Shawn-



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:35:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:35:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEGGCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> >
> >A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
> >bone from a walrus penis.  See
> >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html
>

Ancient Eskimo wisdom say:
Never knife fight man with hairy palms.

-Shawn-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:52:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:52:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F217LltyKF5Q6JVW8s20001d6e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410044431.009e86c0@mindspring.com>

At 02:22 AM 4/10/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the 
>conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.

In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat 
in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?

Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public 
opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the 
region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.

All of these could be applied to the 1st Interstellar War.  The Vilani 
might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really capable of, or were 
under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder.  ISTR from losing endless 
games of Imperium to Craig that the Imperial governor was beholden to his 
superiors.. asking for the necessary firepower was a big blow to his 
prestige.  Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion snetients would do?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> 
> At 07:28 PM 4/9/2002, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
> >Team finds a "disk" that contains the secret information. but it is not 
> >compatible with what they have on the ship. Now how do they read the 
> >information with out destroying the contents.
> 

IMTU I have what's called "Imperial Standard".
These items cost 0-10% above the LBB price.
Anything Imperial Standard has compatible connectors
and data formats. Thus your Inertial Map Locator
can connect to your communicator to transmit it's data
to another players communicator, that is connected to 
his map box and hand computer. You get the drift.

-Shawn-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> QUOTE
> The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
> civilians.  It has little or no military application,
> contrary to popular mythos.
> END QUOTE
> 

Commanders who have given the order to "fix bayonets" to
scared troops, often notice an increased level of confidence
and moral. 

-Shawn-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

While putting together an exploratory cruiser for TNE (coming shortly) I
reread the information in the Solomani & Aslan book regarding the Solomani
explorations into the neighbouring Perseus arm of the galaxy.

It struck me that the ships of these expeditions would be quite challenging
to design. Mission length must have been in decades so the ships must have
been to a great extent self supporting. But just how would the ships cross
into the next arm?

Contrary to popular opinion there are stars in the gaps between the arms,
the spirals themselves being defined by bright stars. But as to how many
stars and whether fuel sources could be found there?

Assuming the ships were built to TL14 or 15 standard this means jump 5 or 6
maximum, and it is likely that in the "gaps" fuel sources may be further
apart than this. Very embarrassing for a ship to run out of fuel!

So IMHO the ships would also be fitted with Bussard Rams to scoop up the
hydrogen found in the space between arms. This would not be used for the
HePLar thruster but to refuel the jump drive and power plant. (Though this
makes the ship even bigger as it does have to carry enough maneuver fuel to
get up to a velocity where the Ram Scoop functions.

Any ideas?

Anyone want to have a go at designing one using FFS1?
Could such a ship work at all given Traveller Tech limits?

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409234307.A19761@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:12:37AM -0400
Message-ID: <3CB4DAB8.15448.3769A3@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 23:43, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> What I mean is that man, viewed as an organism, seems not to value RPG
> line editors as highly as information architects (but, e.g., higher
> than garbagemen).  That valuation has no moral meaning, of course.
> It's just that there aren't enough people willing to pay enough to pay
> line editors what IT people get.  Would _you_ pay $130 per supplement?

If the NZ dollar drops back to its former low vs the US$ and the price 
in the US of supplements goes up much more, I'll be forced to pay about 
that or do without. And if they were good supplements for a game I was 
playing (or was likely to in the near future) I probably would, sucker 
that I am.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>
References: <B8D89BAB.38054%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4DCF1.26051.4017AA@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 2:36, laning wrote:

> I also remind everyone that all other things (like velocity and sectional 
> density) being equal, the more massive bullet will penetrate cover better 
> and that most troops you're shooting at will seek cover if they're not 
> already using it.  Big bullets still have their advantages.

Yep. A source of complaint from the older guys when we switched from 
the L1A1s (a bit before my time, though the Air Farce was still using 
them in the early 90s) to the M16A1 and finally the Stryr AUG was that 
the 5.56mm bullet wouldn't go through 18" or 2' thick pine trees, 
whereas the 7.62x51 bullet would.
 
> And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting 
> results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting 
> dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or 
> .308?  Or something else?

I'd be quite happy with a .308, as long as I was used to the particular 
weapon. I'd prefer a .30-06, or in very close country a 12ga magnum 
shotgun (pump or semi-auto). However a lot depends on whether it's thin 
skinned or not - Leopards run up to 150-160 pounds and .243 is 
considered adequate for them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041435.027f87e0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <20020409234739.B19761@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3CB4DE5E.18426.45A995@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 4:35, laning wrote:

> Think about what the actual problem is and how to fix it, don't waste
> mental bandwidth on looking for evidence to support my prejudice that
> all customers are inherently mentally defective. If I'm so damned
> superior, what the hell am I doing working as a mere tech rep?  Most
> of the customers I talked to were being paid better than most of the
> reps I worked with.  Now who is the dummy?  :-> 

Now, I agree with you about not wasting mental bandwidth, but you've 
got the reason all wrong. the real reason to not look "for evidence to 
support my prejudice that all customers are inherently mentally 
defective" is that unless you've a self-esteem problem (like many of 
your co-workers obviously did) you'll know beyond a shadow of a doubt 
that you're superior. That being the case, why waste time proving 
something already self-evident?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 07:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed Apr 10 06:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Portland class scout cruiser
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBGEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

PORTLAND CLASS SCOUT CRUISER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION

The Portland class fitted into the small gap between escorts and light
cruisers. Most were deployed with the Confederations exploration division,
though the limited jump capacity, 1xJump-3 was considered something of a
hindrance, though careful mission planning could overcome this to some
extent. Portlands ranged far and wide, both on exploration and intelligence
work. Some were used by the Confederation navy, the two parallel 7,000Mj
N-PAW weapons providing a useful capability. More being used as defacto
cruisers as the 2nd Rim War progressed.

The Confederations exploration division responded to this by somehow
ensuring that most of the Portlands operated by them managed to stay far
beyond the Confederations borders. This also meant that a disproportionate
number of this class survived the war and the impact of virus.

In the absence of more capable vessels the Confederation also despatched a
number of Portlands on long range missions to search for any sign of
returning vessels from the Perseus Arms expeditions. These too had failed to
return when virus swept through the Solomani Confederation.


General Data Displacement: 15,000 tons  Hull Armour: 60
Length: 180 meters  Volume: 210,000 cubic meters
Price: MCr6,885.97438  Target Size: L
Configuration: Wedge SL  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 137,937.6836/122,269.5345 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 25,287Mw Fusion Power Plant (99.95Mw/hit), 1
year duration (83.7951Mw surplus)
Jump Performance: 1xJump-3 (42,000 cubic meters)
G-Rating: 3 (7,500Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 82 (96.9 with jump-2 reserve, 111.9 with jump-1 reserve, 126.8 with
no jump reserve), 937.5 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 5,012

Electronics Computer: 3xTL13 Fb (0.9Mw each)
Commo: 2x300,000km Radio (10 hexes, 10Mw each), 2x1,000AU Maser (8, 0.6Mw
each),
Avionics: TL10+ Avionics
Sensors: 2x150,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (5 hexes; 0.2Mw each),
2x300,000km Active EMS (10 hexes; 27.5Mw each), 2xTL13 Densitometer (0.9Mw
each), 2xTL12 Neutrino Sensor (0.01Mw each), 12xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw
each)
ECM/ECCM: EM Masking (210Mw), 36xDecoy Dispensors
Controls: Bridge with 98xBridge Workstations, Auxiliary Bridge with
98xBridge Workstations, Flag Bridge with 11x Bridge Workstations, Fire
Control Bridge with 15xBridge Workstations, plus 252 other workstations

Armament Offensive: 2xTL13 7,000Mj Parallel Mount N-PAWs (Loc: 4,5; Arcs:1;
194.4445Mw each; 19 Crew each), 20xTL13 106Mj Laser Turrets (Loc:
4x2,4x3,4x8,4x9,4x10 ; Arcs: 1,2,3; 29.4445Mw each; 1 Crew each), 8xMissile
100-ton Bays (Loc: 2x6,2x7,2x14,2x15; each with 4 missile/recce drones and
96 missiles or recce drones each; 0.15Mw each; 1 Crew each)

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
7,000Mj Parallel N-PAW  10:418  20:418  40:418  80:418
106Mj Laser Turret  10:1/8-26  20:1/6-20  40:1/3-10  80:1/2-5
-2 Difficulty Levels

Defensive: TL13 Meson Screen (PV=285; 90Mw; 4 Crew), 6xTL13 Nuclear Damper
Barbettes (Loc: 3x16,3x17; Arcs: All; 9Mw each; 1 Crew each), 10xTL13
Sandcaster Turrets (Loc: 5x18,5x19; Arcs: All; 2D6x5 per hit; 35 Cannisters
each; 1Mw each; 1 Crew each)
Master Fire Directors: 7xTL13 (4 Diff Mod; Beam; 10 hexes; 2.95Mw each; 1
Crew each), 8xTL13 (4 Diff Mod; Beam/Missile; 10 hexes; 3.1Mw each; 1 Crew
each)

Accommodations Life Support: Extended (42Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
1050Mw)
Crew: 675/687 (252xEngineering, 6xElectronics, 4xManeuver, 131xGunnery,
52xMaintenance, 41xShip's Troops, 6xFlight Crew, 156xCommand, 23xSteward,
5xMedical),Flagship adds (3xElectronics, 8xCommand, 1xSteward)
Crew Accommodations: 382xSmall Staterooms (0.0005Mw each), 10xLow Berths
(0.001Mw each)
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 1,355.7 cubic meters, four large cargo hatches
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: 1 15-ton RF14D Scorpion class recon
fighter with internal hanger (minimal) and one launch port, 2 30-ton Puffin
class ship's boats with internal hangers (minimal) and one launch port each
Air Locks: 150
Additional Fittings: 2x8-ton Sick Bays (0.8 Mw each), 2x10-ton Machine Shops
(1 Mw each), 2x6-ton Electronics Shops (0.6Mw each)

Notes
Fuel purification equipment (121.4037Mw) is sufficient to purifiy 24,280.74
cubic meters in 6 hours (30 hours for entire load exclusive of power plant
fuel) Fuel scoop capacity is 42,000 cubic meters per hour (2.83 hours for
entire load exclusive of power plant fuel).

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  		Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  		Systems
1  			1-2:Ant  		1-19:Elec,20:Qtrs  		PP-253H,JD-252H,
2-3   					1:LT,2-16:Qtrs,17-20:Hold  	FPP-170H,
4-5,12-13  		1:AL  		1-2:PA,3-20:Hold  		LS-123H,PA-80H,
6-7,14-15  		1:AL  		1-2:PA,3-7:MBy,8-20:Hold  	ELS-62H,AG-42H,
8-10  		1:AL  		1-2:PA,3:LT,4-20:Hold  		MD-23H,EMM-21H,
11  			1:LP,2:CH  		1-2:PA,3-20:Hold  		Hanger-21H,
16-17  		1:AL,2:Decoy  	1-2:PA,3:ND,4-5:Elec,6-20:Hold  MScreen-14H,
18-19  		1:AL,2-4:EMMR  	1-2:PA,3:Sand,4-20:Eng  	MBy-14H,ND-1H,
20  			1:EMMR  		1-2:PA,3-20:Eng  			LT-1H,Sand-1H,
   											ElecShop-1H,
   											MachineShop-1H,
   											SickBay-1H,
   											EMMR-(210h),MFD-(4h),
   											MFDAnt-(2h),AEMS-(2h),
   											Neutrino-(2h),SSR-(2h),
   											All others-(1h)

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
Message-ID: <200204101359.DTL04671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Antony Farrell" asks
<snip question about how to refuel in the middle of nowhere>

There are many brown dwarfs that are probably not on star 
charts, substellar or even Jupiter-sized gas giants in the 
middle of nowhere.

Ice balls, cometary bodies, etc.  Even clouds of hydrogen, 
depending on where you are.

You might, as you say, require specialized equipment to 
locate, identify, and exploit such resources.

Also, your ship may have backup power generation that 
provides a means of keeping the crew alive and the ship able 
to move enough to collect fuel.  This backup power generation 
is probably nuclear fission, which allows the ship to 
potentially go without hydrogen (albeit without jumping 
anywhere) for some time.

You may also remember Annic Nova.  That ship used power 
accumulators (and solar power to load them). 

So let's consider a ship with a nuclear fission base 
powerplant (to keep everyone nice and warm, and provide a 
little extra power to charge jump accumulators a la Annic 
Nova).  We'll also throw in a deployable solar array, in case 
we're near a star.

If we're in the middle of nowhere, with no sunlight, we 
charge the accumulators off of the excess power from the 
fission reactor.  If we're near a star, it's a bit quicker to 
recharge, since we get some solar power.

There might even be additional closed-cycle hydrogen/oxygen 
fuel cells.  These could be recharged from any other power 
production, and could be endlessly recycled.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022011.027e0130@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D9980E.382D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 11:24 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

>> The .223 is a fairly accurate round, on par with most cartridges.  The 308
>> is theoretically more accurate.  It is certainly more resistant to the
>> wind.  But as far as semi-auto platforms, there is nothing better than
>> Stoner's design.  Put a 308 in an M16 platform, like the AR-10 or SR-25,
>> and you get outstanding accuracy.
> 
> I've wondered for a long time about getting an AR-15 or similar chambered
> for .308.  How does it perform on full auto?  (I imagine it has issues with
> the barrel overheating more than a heavier weapon would.)  Rapid semi?  Is
> there even such an animal sold commercially?
> 
> Not that I have any actual use for such a thing.

Been living in a cave?  The original AR design was for a .308 (AR-10).
Current variants include the AR-10 and SR-25.  Like any full-auto .308, the
AR-10 is difficult to control.

It should be noted that the AR-10 and clones are no more prone to
overheating than any other .308 as current guns use barrels that are
comparable to other rifles.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <F210hWdlurZFj9V1M0i00013a41@hotmail.com>

>
> > Star Wars Name =
> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
> > name
> >
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town
> > where you were born.
>
>Mikpa Auhel.
>
>Hilarious...

Gresm Mopit

aka Andma Mopit



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D99957.382D9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 11:36 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting
> results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting
> dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or
> .308?  Or something else?

You forgot to add:  "Using ball ammunition only".

We are speaking of military weapons here, so let's get the ammo right.
There is no question that if ammunition selection is not restricted,
7.62x51mm is more lethal.

Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 over 7.62x51mm
ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
any particular caliber.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:28:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:28:22 2002
Subject: [TML] [Fwd: TML Landrgrab]
Message-ID: <3CB44B6D.D543DDB3@premier.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Another JTAS subscriber want to join in the Landgrab.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.
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Return-Path: <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
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From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
To: "'landgrab@downport.com'" <landgrab@downport.com>
Cc: "'wombat@premier.net'" <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: TML Landrgrab
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 09:47:20 -0400
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I would like to stake a claim on the following worlds in the Spinward
Marches:

Keng/Regina
Kegena/Rhylanor

Thanks,

	Brian Hurrel

Brian L. Hurrel
ICS Analyst
EDS
(973) 682-5578



--------------905666F0ED2E48681BD24B32--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:30:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:30:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20409.224111.2G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D99A5C.382DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 11:41 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> 
>> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).
>> A 65 gram projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.
> 
> 65 grams is about 2.3 *ounces*. Ouch.
> 
> 4800 fps = ~1460 m/s.
> 
> Yeek! That's almost 70 kiloJoules muzzle energy!
> 
> Yeah, that'd make folks go splat.

I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.

69,562 Joules of energy
1,130 joules of free recoil

25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:31:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:31:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <F101tqbFkSX50mLWfFz0001f08d@hotmail.com>

>>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
>>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name
>
>That makes me Ingaty Pollan.  Sounds Hungarian or something.

Oryith Smimoo  / Regith Smimoo (if I went with 'Greg')

aka

Rewock MacMoo

Not too bad, eh?




Andy Mac


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F221lf8nFJ3VTPlu4kA0000f71e@hotmail.com>

Tod Glen wrote:>Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 
over 7.62x51mm
>ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
>is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
>any particular caliber.

It is a tuff call.  It appears that the 5.56mm does actually make bigger 
wounds, as long as there is sufficient tissue to penetrate, as long as the 
velocity is above 2700 fps.  With an M16 that is like 200- yards; with the 
M4 it is only 100-140 yards.  After that range, you are better off with the 
bigger round.  And the 7.62x51 certainly penetrates through cover better at 
all ranges.  But however you weigh those tradeoffs, there is no doubt that 
you are going to have to be carrying around an extra 5-10 pounds of gear 
with the bigger rifle.

It is my understanding that there is some griping after Afghanistan about 
the M4's performance.  Its lack of "stopping power" and penetration is being 
critisized.  With the 62 grain bullet, I think the muzzle velocity is only 
like 2900 fps.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F116kY5TetpIuPHDXE20001de7d@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting
>results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting
>dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or
>.308?  Or something else?

Using soft points, .308 (7.62)is actually probably overkill a bit for (human 
sized) deer.  Something in the .257 to .284 (7mm) range is adequate.  Most 
people still go with .30 caliber, because it is popular and it gives a 
little margin for error.  .308 is more appropriate for larger game, like elk 
(400 + pounds, with a much heavier bone structure).  It is important to keep 
in mind that when the US Army went to .30 caliber cartridges, they thought 
it was still important to stop a horse.  I think their choice goes a little 
overboard for infantry.  The Army has thought about going to a 7mm cartridge 
twice.  The first time, between the wars, it was decided that it would be a 
mistake to make all of the 30-06 ammo laying around obsolete.  The second 
time, under pressure from the British after WWII, the Army was still in awe 
of the Garand's performance and decided to go with 30-06 ballistics in a 
shorter package.

Then they went to .22.  Go figure.  The British were not too pleased.  And 
the rest of the Western world ended up with 7.62x51 rifles that are 
difficult to control, to put in lightly, on full-auto.

IMHO an assault rifle in the 6.5-7mm range and a velocity of 2800 fps would 
be a fine weapon.  Good for deer too.

.223 is largely considered underpowered for deer of the size you mention.  
It is legal where I live, but one problem you run into is that you must use 
soft points and they will not yeild sufficient penetration.  I read an 
article last year by a guy who went and shot a bunch of deer with centerfire 
.22s, and his conclusion was that the results were good so long as (1) you 
use bullets that hold together well, like Nosler partitions, and (2) the 
velocity is above 2700 fps, which coincidentally is the critical velocity 
for FMJ ammo too.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>; from ShawnSears@telocity.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:05:34AM -0400
References: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20020410095004.A21459@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:05:34AM -0400, Shawn R Sears wrote:
> 
> Commanders who have given the order to "fix bayonets" to
> scared troops, often notice an increased level of confidence
> and moral. 

This may be related to the visceral fear one feels when faced with a
blade: when on the wielding end, it may possibly feel much more
empowering than a simple rifle does.

I know in my own case that I feel somehow more prepared when carrying
a sword than when carrying a rifle or pistol.  This may even be the
real reason dress swords have survived as long as they have.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I once successfully declined a departmental retreat, saying that on that
day I planned instead to advance.                    --Alan J. Rosenthal

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F215PT3lz5yrFVq9GNS00002f52@hotmail.com>

laning said:

>I've wondered for a long time about getting an AR-15 or similar chambered
>for .308.  How does it perform on full auto?  (I imagine it has issues with
>the barrel overheating more than a heavier weapon would.)

I imagine that full-auto is uncontrollable.  The were only a few thousand of 
the original AR-10s made (for Portugal and the Sudan?), and they only 
weighed like 7 pounds.  I believe the SR-25 and modern AR-10 are heavier, 
like the same as an M14.  To tell you the truth, I am not even sure if they 
make full-auto versions.  It would probably be a little more controllable 
than an M14, even if it was the same weight, because the stock is in line 
with the barrel.

>Rapid semi?

I think you would get good results.  Israel uses the SR-25 as a sniper 
rifle, in conjunction with Remington 700s.

>Is there even such an animal sold commercially?

The SR-25 is made by an outfit called Knight's Armament, and the AR-10 is 
made by Armalite.  Both are for sale to the public; I think the AR-10 can be 
had for as little as $1,000.

>Not that I have any actual use for such a thing.

That is what my wife says about all of this Traveller stuff.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F206POYFSrAuWiqJmdT00013683@hotmail.com>

laning wrote:

>At 08:59 PM 4/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>>On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off some
>>M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and issuing them at
>>the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max 500 yards?) and
>>sniper (800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the guy with the M14 the
>>"designated marksman" or something like that.>
>Glad to hear we're doing that.  It's basically the latest variation on
>something we've at least theoretically been doing for many decades.

I guess the army is experimenting with the same concept, although they are 
using M16s with free floated 18" match barrels, supressors, and Leupold 
2.5-8 scopes.  I don't think these are for general issue, but have gone to 
special forces.  Some of the AP pictures show these weapons in use in 
Afghanistan.

I am sure the Army and Marines will be able to evaluate their respective 
designs, and rationally decide which approach is the best.  ;)

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 10:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 09:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204101603.DTP06500@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>
>It is my understanding that there is some griping after 
>Afghanistan about the M4's performance.  Its lack 
>of "stopping power" and penetration is being 
>critisized.  With the 62 grain bullet, I think the muzzle 
>velocity is only 
>like 2900 fps.
>

There was the same griping about the M4 from the Somalia 
experience.  Some people were hit as many as six times in the 
torso at less than 50 yards, and did not go down, or even 
slow down.  Now, some of the targets were high on khat, which 
is a stimulant, so it's hard to say.  I think of "high" 
people the same way I think of deer - unless you hit them in 
the right spot, they are going to try and run.  

For deer and 4-legged animals, I usually try and hit the 
shoulder, looking for a bone hit.  This means that I must 
have a bullet capable of breaking bone on impact at the 
desired range.

For people, other than a head hit, I'm thinking that 
shattering the pelvis would be very useful, but I'm thinking 
that's a heavier bone than deer shoulder.

It almost makes me think that if you really wanted to be sure 
of putting someone down, you have to hit them in just the 
right spot.  An M4 through the skull is going to put you 
down.  

It's too bad we don't use hunting ammunition in combat.  I 
think that if we had a better optimized bullet, the M4 would 
be fine.  Maybe not very good at armor penetration anymore, 
but great at stopping.  It was said earlier that non-ball 
makes a .308 very deadly.  Sure.  And a .338 even more so.  
But if we're stuck with 5.56mm, then we should redesign the 
round to maximize wounding.  Probably go back to a lighter 
bullet for the M4 (since we're shorter range anyway), maybe 
even 50 grains, and make it a varmint bullet designed to blow 
apart inside the body (to make a temporary cavity a permanent 
one). Get that velocity up, and make sure the round does not 
exit the body.

To paraphrase Apocalypse Now, to prosecute people for war 
crimes (like using hunting ammunition) is like handing out 
speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

 
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 10:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 09:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F11APfrrF69u7tS1RkF00004676@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon says:

>There was the same griping about the M4 from the Somalia
>experience.  Some people were hit as many as six times in the
>torso at less than 50 yards, and did not go down, or even
>slow down.  Now, some of the targets were high on khat, which
>is a stimulant, so it's hard to say.

From what I understand, the guys in Somalia had not yet been issued M4s; 
they had XM177s/CAR-15s with little 10 or 11 inch barrels.  The muzzle 
velocity with those weapons is only like 2500 fps.

In the book Blackhawk Down, one of the Rangers unloads his M60 on a guy and 
it takes a few bursts to put him down.  We ought to issue that Khat to our 
troops!

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 10:58:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 09:58:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <20020410.095929.-78189.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 07:25:02 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com  says
> >
> >= Barista Corrt
> >
> 
> Sounds like you work at Starbucks.

Yea, Starbucks in Startown - Lousy place for coffee, but the actions not
bad.

Just remember to roll the R's in "Corrt" bucko, or I'll have ya tossed
outa here by our new bouncer - Barst Cortor the 7 foot tall 300 lb
Barbarian.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204100809390.28175-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <DAV32eCyWu1MRRNOqcC0001c03c@hotmail.com>

> > Star Wars Name =
> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
> > name
> >
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town
> > where you were born.

Bilsc Guazl  [sigh]

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <200204101709.DTR06672@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>> > Star Wars Name =
>> >
>> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your 
surname for first
>> > name
>> >
>> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of 
the town
>> > where you were born.
>

Trying this again.  John Kwon.  Chapel Hill.  Mother's maiden 
name is Sweezy.

Joh + kw = Johkw
Sw + Cha = Swcha

Johkw Swcha

Not very easy to pronounce.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5@aol.com>

--part1_16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5_boundary
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   Shane writes:
> Star Wars Name =
>
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born.

Hmm..  Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
Using your equation, I'd be:  Shasr Baden

But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

Which for me yields:  Anemet Slabar
I dunno, they're both kinda cool.

   Hmmm, okay, that sounds cool too--lets see what I get :)

   Ethphy Murerw? I dunno... I think I liked Kenmur Ersan better :)
  -Ken Murphy-


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Shane writes:
<BR>&gt; Star Wars Name =
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
<BR>&gt; were born.
<BR>
<BR>Hmm.. &nbsp;Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
<BR>Using your equation, I'd be: &nbsp;Shasr Baden
<BR>
<BR>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
<BR>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
<BR>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name
<BR>
<BR>Which for me yields: &nbsp;Anemet Slabar
<BR>I dunno, they're both kinda cool.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Hmmm, okay, that sounds cool too--lets see what I get :)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Ethphy Murerw? I dunno... I think I liked Kenmur Ersan better :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40@aol.com>

--part1_99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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   Rob wrote:
   When I was younger I spit
chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it
sometime).
 
   It'd be an interesting exercise to see if the skills acquired could be 
generated using CT's "Other" career, or whether you'd have to knockout an 
entirely new set of skill tables--a somewhat scary proposition either way you 
look at it :)
  -Ken-
   Who is currently halfway through his 5th term in a still-as-yet 
undetermined career ;P
   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Rob wrote:
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;When I was younger I spit
<BR>chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it
<BR>sometime).
<BR> 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;It'd be an interesting exercise to see if the skills acquired could be generated using CT's "Other" career, or whether you'd have to knockout an entirely new set of skill tables--a somewhat scary proposition either way you look at it :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Who is currently halfway through his 5th term in a still-as-yet undetermined career ;P
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Craig Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020410143005.F2EB127AB3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0204100927470.24254-100000@hollywood.cinenet.net>

> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 04:49:00 -0700
> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> At 02:22 AM 4/10/02 +0000, you wrote:
> >Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the
> >conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.
>
> In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat
> in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?
>
> Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public
> opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the
> region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.

And a muddled, unrealistic set of goals for the operation.  We went in
with no understanding of Vietnamese history, society, psychology, or
politics, and expected to galvanize the South into a uniform resistance
force and to persuade the North to back off based on our *potential*
ability to stomp them flat.  Nobody ever seems to have considered what
would happen if they called our bluff.

> All of these could be applied to the 1st Interstellar War.  The Vilani
> might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really capable of, or were
> under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder.  ISTR from losing endless
> games of Imperium to Craig that the Imperial governor was beholden to his
> superiors.. asking for the necessary firepower was a big blow to his
> prestige.  Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion snetients would do?

You recall correctly, and in my mind this is sufficient to explain how the
Terrans managed their initial victories while outnumbered and outgunned
thousands to one (taking into account the full Vilani might).  I get the
strong sense that the Ziru Sirka practiced "shoot the messenger"-style
management a great deal; the status quo and normal operations were
the ideal, and regional governors were tacitly expected to report
"everything is okay!" while quietly dealing with any irregularities before
they came to wider attention.  To admit that a situation had come up that
you couldn't handle was taken as a failure of planning or procedure, with
the obvious effects on your career.

I am very strongly of the opinion that the local Vilani governor knew all
about the Terrans; probably several of them did, over the century or two
immediately preceding official contact.  Remember, the ZS was quite used
to encountering minor human races as it expanded, and I'm sure there were
exhaustively documented procedures and case studies on how to proceed with
their integration into the ZS.  The Terrans simply didn't operate
according to the 'rules', and the governor was terrified to report this
fully to his superiors.  The rest is (future) history.

-- 
   |   Craig Berry - http://www.cinenet.net/~cberry/
 --*--  "All that lives is holy." - William Blake
   |


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCELGDOAA.andy@exeus.com>

> But the thing is, I always thought the equation was: 
> Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name 
> First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name 

Rewick Briglo at your service.

Andy Brick
75% of Term 4 done. Aging rolls only a short while away ...
 
 
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.345 / Virus Database: 193 - Release Date: 09/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
Message-ID: <200204101734.DTT01888@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

For a good look at a list of 'munitions' please see

http://www.eurospace.org/usml.pdf

Tedious.  It seems to be whatever may be remotely useful in a 
weapon-related sense.  No plasma guns on the list - yet.

ObTrav: Still wondering how to handle "permits".  Or even the 
law level restrictions (which I think are odd - of course, 
there aren't any real countries where the rules make sense).

It could be worse.  If you want to hunt in Germany you have 
to wear the Keebler Elf outfit.

"It says here on the back of the permit that if I want to 
carry my PGMP in public, I have to wear the "customary" pink 
bike shorts and traditional "penguin" face mask."
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
In-Reply-To: <200204101734.DTT01888@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:34:43PM -0400
References: <200204101734.DTT01888@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020410120024.A21755@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:34:43PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> It could be worse.  If you want to hunt in Germany you have 
> to wear the Keebler Elf outfit.

???

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Friends don't let civilian friends report military affairs.  It
embarrasses the reporter, and grossly misleads the public.
                                                 --Laning

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40@aol.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGMCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1E099.1C0062D0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 Rob wrote: 
  When I was younger I spit 
chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it 
sometime). 

Chicken Spitting?

It sounds like something a lion might do if the chicken tasted fowl. ;-)

-Shawn-

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1E099.1C0062D0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;Rob wrote: =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;When I was=20
younger I spit <BR>chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe =
I'll=20
write it <BR>sometime).&nbsp;<BR><BR></FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Chicken=20
Spitting?</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D601160418-10042002>It=20
sounds like something a lion might do if the chicken tasted fowl.=20
;-)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002>-Shawn-</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1E099.1C0062D0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
Message-ID: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" wonders
>On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:34:43PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>> 
>> It could be worse.  If you want to hunt in Germany you 
>>have to wear the Keebler Elf outfit.
>
>???
>

When I was stationed in Germany, I wanted to hunt.  So I 
signed up for classes, paid a HUGE chunk of cash for classes, 
fees, etc.  Then I had to hire a guide. No option given 
there. The classes were extensive and mandatory (especially 
considering that the area I was going to hunt in is the size 
of a small park, and is neatly manicured).  At the end, I sat 
with my guide in a plush treestand.

It was mandatory that I wear the lederhosen.  I am glad no 
one has a picture of that.  That outfit is expensive.

And now the guide is instructing me on which deer I can 
shoot, and which are not permitted.

Have to tip the guide as well.  Most expensive deer I ever 
ate.  It's what happens when a culture is based entirely on a 
layered bureaucracy.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
Message-ID: <200204101816.DTU00025@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"John T. Kwon" says
<snip about hunting in Germany>

I could have gone to South Africa and hunted for two weeks, 
airfare included, for what I spent to hunt in Germany.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGMCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>; from ShawnSears@telocity.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:07:54PM -0400
References: <99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40@aol.com> <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGMCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20020410122225.B21755@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:07:54PM -0400, Shawn R Sears wrote:
> 
> Chicken Spitting?

There is (or was--it may have gone out of business) a chain called
Boston Chicken (later Boston Market) whose main draw was its
rotisserie chicken.  I prepared the chicken.

The way it works is that Sysco would deliver great plastic boxes of 16
chickens each.  There was a great plastic bag in the box which held
the chickens and the flavouring they were packed in.

I would go to the freezer and haul out 128 or 256 chickens (8 or 16
boxes) and wheel the pallet over to my workstation.  I'd then prepare
the garlic marinade: a gallon of apple cider vinegar and a package of
this garlic/sugar power mixture.  Then I would repeat the following
process over and over:

1) Open box
2) Slit open bag
3) Remove chicken
4) Slide hand into icy cold chicken and pull out any fat
5) Dunk chicken in marinade
6) Slide chicken onto spit and fix with spike
7) Repeat 3-6 thrice (four chickens to a spit)
8) Repeat 1-7 until no more boxes

It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over
me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar.

I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
For 93 million miles, there is nothing between the sun and my shadow
except me.  I'm always getting in the way of something...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
In-Reply-To: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:10:51PM -0400
References: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020410123043.C21755@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:10:51PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> It's what happens when a culture is based entirely on a layered
> bureaucracy.

LOL.  My favourite history prof in college told the story of trying to
name his son while he and his wife were living in Germany.  They
wanted to name him Calvert, after his wife's maiden name.  Apparently
one must take one's names from a great book of approved names--of
course Calvert wasn't in it.  So he asks them what he needs to do.
The clerk goes back to her superior and they discuss it for awhile,
then she returns and states that if he can get a letter from the
American consul stating that Calvert is an approved American name,
then he can name his son that.

So he went on down to the consul, they all had a good laugh, and the
letter informing the German registry that Calvert is approved for use
in America was sent.

OTOH, I daresay Germany has no-one name Moon Unit or Dweezil, so the
policy is not entirely incorrect.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Farewell Romance the Soldier spoke
By skill-of-sword we may not win
But scuffle 'midst the unclean smoke
Of arquebuse and culverin
Honor is lost and none may tell
Who paid good blows, Romance farewell.
                            --Kipling

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <200204101843.DTV03242@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert reveals chicken spitting
<snip>

I, and probably others, (Doug?) have done the burning of 
human waste thing.

Nothing like stirring burning human waste, sloshing the 
liquid around, trying to find a "clean" spot to grab the can, 
being permeated by the stench of diesel, smoke, and shit 
(pardon my French).

It's something that you were put on a duty roster for, so you 
didn't get it every day.  But it always came around.  When we 
started, I asked if we were going to be issued some good dope 
to smoke while we were burning the stuff.  After all, we had 
seen that in Platoon...

The powers that be were not amused.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020410191917.B3737@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 10, 2002 07:19:17 PM
Message-ID: <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is
> > that if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we
> > would prefer that neither of them drop.
> 
> Yes, that's one effect.  For example, light photons have sufficient
> energy to cause certain chemical changes in pigments in the eye;
> that's how we see.
> 
> If the chemical energies are a hundred times lower and Planck's
> constant is unchanged, a light photon doesn't just affect sensitive
> pigments, it rips electrons out of stable molecules and breaks
> chemical bonds.  That's what we normally call "ionising radiation".
> 
> We can't just use light that has a hundred times lower frequency,
> because it has a hundred times longer wavelength.  OK, I guess we can,
> but it involves changing the speed of light...

I get the feeling that you're trying to change constants rather than
looking at the problem as a closed system where all four fundamental
forces are modified in the same ratio (actually, I'm still hazy on
whether or not gravity should be included in this). To do so, I think
we really need to look at the most simple problems, involving only a
single atom or a pair of atoms. Otherwise, we may be dealing with a
system that is too complex to really analyze completely. I'd like to
return to the previous example, involving electron orbits. I'm going
to reiterate from my prevous post.

you write:
> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
> well.

Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
energy level of an electron in an atom?

I've heard that the atomic nucleus is held together by the interplay
between the strong and weak forces, the strong force keeping the
positively charged protons together while the weak force tries to
rip them apart. I suppose that since this idea of taming the quantum
foam should reduce both forces equally, the stability of the
nucleus would be uneffected (the effects of the strong & weak force
reductions should cancel out).

However, I'm not sure how to handle the problem of electrons, which
you mention above. But I'll try to tackle it anyway, so what follows
it totally off the cuff. I'm guessing that the electromagnetic force
keeps electrons attracted to the positively charged atomic nucleus
and repulsed by each other, hence accounting for their movements
(of course, this probably falls apart at some level, but bear with
me). Well, I'm just guessing here, but if their movements are determined
by the repulsive & attractive effects of the same force (electromagnetic),
then reducing that force should have no net effect, as reduction in
repulsion will be perfectly offset by the reduction in attraction.
In short, and I'm no physics major, so correct me if I'm wrong,
once again what I would expect is that these changes cancel out,
resulting in there being no need to change Planck's constant.

Am I totally wrong here? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 13:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 12:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>

At 08:03 PM 4/10/02 +0800, you wrote:

>So IMHO the ships would also be fitted with Bussard Rams to scoop up the
>hydrogen found in the space between arms. This would not be used for the
>HePLar thruster but to refuel the jump drive and power plant. (Though this
>makes the ship even bigger as it does have to carry enough maneuver fuel to
>get up to a velocity where the Ram Scoop functions.
>
>Any ideas?

A very interesting idea.

My first reaction to the problem was a squadron of ships, most of which are 
various kinds of rider configuration.  Including one configuration that 
carries a smaller ship, capable of jump-4 or higher and maneuver-1 and 
specializing in jumping with reusable modular fuel tanks and dropping them 
off, then going back to fetch more.  Eventually, they've dumped off a big 
enough fuel cache to support the squadron as it jumps on through.

Perhaps, only one ship one would jump through first.  A ship designed to be 
ready for trouble at the other end if trouble happens to be there.  Then it 
jumps back.  If the other end doesn't have a fuel source either, it will 
have to either carry enough fuel for two jumps or do a reduced jump so that 
it keeps enough fuel to jump back to the fuel cache.  All very tedious.  If 
necessary, the first fuel cache can be used as a jump off to establish a 
second fuel cache farther on.  Even more tedious, but doable.  That should 
get the squadron or at least one lead vessel of the squadron across a 
pretty big gap.

Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination 
star system.  Added to an astronomical database that must be built up far 
beyond what we presently have managed on Earth and from our lowly little TL 
7 or 8, undersized, spacecraft and only observing from the vantage of one 
solar system.

The exploring squadron probably will not have to do much guessing about 
fuel sources along the way, and will have their route well mapped.  The big 
surprises will be what come from close-in observations when they arrive in 
a system, and who/what life they meet along the way.

Any of the astronomy gearheads able to tell us anything about the average 
density and class of the stars in that region?

Are there rules that indicate how much space must be allotted for spare 
parts and repair equipment necessary to keep a ship provisioned for 
decades?  And just who the heck would pay for a trip that won't be heard 
from until after the financier is dead?  (Government, I guess.)  Who the 
heck would _go_ on the trip?  You need a military-style command structure 
to stay organized and on target during the trip, but can you feasibly get 
entire families of qualified crew to submit themselves to living out the 
remainder of their lives that way?  Or instead of families, will it go the 
opposite direction and be only people who've left all earthly attachments 
behind (lol) and are equipped with a plentiful supply of anagathics?  I 
don't recall anything that specifies the age limit for someone on a regular 
regimen of anagathics...Go out forty years and then turn around and come 
back?  My questions are spawning faster than I can type them out.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>

At 08:03 PM 4/10/02 +0800, you wrote:

>So IMHO the ships would also be fitted with Bussard Rams to scoop up the
>hydrogen found in the space between arms. This would not be used for the
>HePLar thruster but to refuel the jump drive and power plant. (Though this
>makes the ship even bigger as it does have to carry enough maneuver fuel to
>get up to a velocity where the Ram Scoop functions.
>
>Any ideas?

A very interesting idea.

My first reaction to the problem was a squadron of ships, most of which are 
various kinds of rider configuration.  Including one configuration that 
carries a smaller ship, capable of jump-4 or higher and maneuver-1 and 
specializing in jumping with reusable modular fuel tanks and dropping them 
off, then going back to fetch more.  Eventually, they've dumped off a big 
enough fuel cache to support the squadron as it jumps on through.

Perhaps, only one ship one would jump through first.  A ship designed to be 
ready for trouble at the other end if trouble happens to be there.  Then it 
jumps back.  If the other end doesn't have a fuel source either, it will 
have to either carry enough fuel for two jumps or do a reduced jump so that 
it keeps enough fuel to jump back to the fuel cache.  All very tedious.  If 
necessary, the first fuel cache can be used as a jump off to establish a 
second fuel cache farther on.  Even more tedious, but doable.  That should 
get the squadron or at least one lead vessel of the squadron across a 
pretty big gap.

Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination 
star system.  Added to an astronomical database that must be built up far 
beyond what we presently have managed on Earth and from our lowly little TL 
7 or 8, undersized, spacecraft and only observing from the vantage of one 
solar system.

The exploring squadron probably will not have to do much guessing about 
fuel sources along the way, and will have their route well mapped.  The big 
surprises will be what come from close-in observations when they arrive in 
a system, and who/what life they meet along the way.

Any of the astronomy gearheads able to tell us anything about the average 
density and class of the stars in that region?

Are there rules that indicate how much space must be allotted for spare 
parts and repair equipment necessary to keep a ship provisioned for 
decades?  And just who the heck would pay for a trip that won't be heard 
from until after the financier is dead?  (Government, I guess.)  Who the 
heck would _go_ on the trip?  You need a military-style command structure 
to stay organized and on target during the trip, but can you feasibly get 
entire families of qualified crew to submit themselves to living out the 
remainder of their lives that way?  Or instead of families, will it go the 
opposite direction and be only people who've left all earthly attachments 
behind (lol) and are equipped with a plentiful supply of anagathics?  I 
don't recall anything that specifies the age limit for someone on a regular 
regimen of anagathics...Go out forty years and then turn around and come 
back?  My questions are spawning faster than I can type them out.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Huxton)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>

Idle speculation from an idle speculator, and it must have been asked 
before...

We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any upper limit 
("that's no moon...")

I had a sudden vision of a jump-capable planet working its way around the 
galaxy sucking gas giants dry between jumps.

Any gearheads got a spreadsheet that can handle this?

Oh, no cheating of course, you have to do this using LBB Book 2 rules at TL13 
and bring the cost in at under 100MCr ;-)

- Richard Huxton



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:09:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:09:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F14rptKlUtfRZGHP4JZ00005b46@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public 
opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the 
region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf."

     "All of these could be applied to the 1st Interstellar War."


Mr. Berry,

     True, but I still have a hard time swallowing it all.
     We've got the constant drum beat in canon about the Vilani "way of war" 
being brutally pragmatic.  They use hostages, have no qualms about nukes, 
target civilians, etc., etc., anything tactic that is cost effective.
     The Ziru Sirka, or it's direct antecedents, were able to put the Vilani 
boot on the neck of quite a number of species and they've kept it there for 
millennia.  The fact that the Geonee, Suerrat, Syleans, et. al. are still 
being kept down at the same time the Terrans show up tells me that the 
Vilani could still get the job done.

     "The Vilani might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really 
capable of, or were under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder."

     After losing the first two Interstellar Wars and visiting the Sol 
system, the Vilani should have known what the Terrans were really capable 
of.  GT:RoF also mentions that the Vilani, when faced with the bewildering 
welter of Terran cultures and genotypes, thought they were facing an 
alliance of several minor human races.  That "threat" alone should have 
spurred some sort of response.
     It's the dichotomy that get's me wondering.  We've got ZS governors 
still keeping the boot on the neck of umpteen minor races, we've got the 
coreward governors arming and using Vargr mercs in political power games 
against each other, and, at the same time, we've got governor after governor 
after on the Rim behaving completely unlike the others throughout the ZS and 
losing piddling wars to a minor race nearly totally confined to a single 
system.

     "ISTR from losing endless games of Imperium to Craig that the Imperial 
governor was beholden to his superiors... asking for the necessary firepower 
was a big blow to his prestige."

     Don't confuse play balance with realpolitik.  As the Vilani player, I 
could spend the prestige points to build larger/more warships early on and 
end up occupying Terra.  The VP table would then paint me as the loser and 
it would be right up to a point.  The Vilani regional governor would "lose" 
but, with Terra occupied, the Ziru Sirka would have actually won.  The 
reverse holds true for the Terran player.  He "wins" because the Vilani 
governor lost too many prestige points, but whose home system is occupied by 
whom?

     "Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion sentients would do?"

     But they'd done it in the past, i.e. the Sky Raiders, and were 
currently threatening to do it to others, the many minor races being held 
down, so why didn't it happen to Sol?  The Ziru Sirka had the numbers, it 
had better technology, and it was chillingly ruthless.  How did it happen to 
lose?
     I'll take my slightly canon-bending answer to that from Cortez' 
conquest of the Aztecs; the Terrans had LOTS of "native" allies.  We all 
learned, wrongly, in school about how Cortez, with only a hundred men, some 
clumsy firelocks, and a few dozen horses, took down the Aztec empire.  Well, 
that makes for good propaganda, but in reality Cortez had tens of thousands 
of native allies, perhaps over 100K of them.
     Cortez visited the Valley of Mexico twice, the first time escaping by 
the skin of his teeth and the second time at the head of an invading army 
nearly 100K strong.  He and his allies built entire fleets to assault 
water-girted capital city of the Aztecs.  The seige went on for months 
before Montezuma finally surrendered.
     IMTU, the "real" story of the Interstellar Wars happens along those 
lines.  The Terrans are greeted at Banard's by a Vilani governor who sees 
them just another tool in his political power games.  The Terrans are 
allowed to expand, are used as deniable mercs in all sorts of Bureau 
bun-fights, and generally bide their time.  Once they feel they're strong 
enough AND they've contacted and recruited lots of those Vilani-oppressed 
minor races, then they strike.  The Terran Confederation wins over the Ziru 
Sirka thanks in large part to their allies; Terran money and Terran gumption 
stir the drink, but the allies provide the mass needed.
     Once the conquest is completed, the Terrans begin to downplay their 
allies contributions and eventually take the Vilani's place as top dog, just 
as the Spanish did with their own allies in Mexico.  Because winners write 
history, the story gets slowly twisted and diluted throughout the Rule of 
Man until it becomes recieved wisdom, an old wives' tale about the 
Interstellar Wars.  The Solomani can't acknowledge how things really 
happened, it would shoot their racist twaddle right out the airlock.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:10:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:10:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020410095004.A21459@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020410195114.49017.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:05:34AM -0400, Shawn R
> Sears wrote:
> > 
> > Commanders who have given the order to "fix
> bayonets" to
> > scared troops, often notice an increased level of
> confidence
> > and moral. 
> 
> This may be related to the visceral fear one feels
> when faced with a
> blade: when on the wielding end, it may possibly
> feel much more
> empowering than a simple rifle does.
> 
> I know in my own case that I feel somehow more
> prepared when carrying
> a sword than when carrying a rifle or pistol.  This
> may even be the
> real reason dress swords have survived as long as
> they have.
> 
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> 
  >>
  That's easily explained: Swords never run out of
ammo, and are a lot harder to break... ;-P~

         MACessna
  >>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:12:21 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F11APfrrF69u7tS1RkF00004676@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155047.01de3120@pop.wizard.net>

Sam D wrote:

>In the book Blackhawk Down, one of the Rangers unloads his M60 on a guy 
>and it takes a few bursts to put him down.  We ought to issue that Khat to 
>our troops!

Give credit to the guy, not the drug.  Nobody at TL 8 or lower makes a drug 
that can turn an average soldier into the Terminator.  I don't discount the 
drug making a difference, but like that.  For at least those last few 
seconds of his life, that poor guy was one of the bravest and toughest 
people in the world.  Drugged or not.

Or, it may just be that he was being spun around so much he hadn't fallen, 
and the machinegunner was too anxious to wait for him to fall and just kept 
firing.  Weird flukes like that kind of thing happen fairly often.

It's a really ugly business to be in.

--Laning

PS  Oh and thanks for the advice on SR-25 and AR-10.  Now if we can only 
get my wife to be able to sleep at night if there's a firearm in the 
house.  Not gonna happen.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D99A5C.382DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20409.224111.2G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155951.01dc24b0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn on a 65 gram instead of 65 grain bullet:
>I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.
>
>69,562 Joules of energy
>1,130 joules of free recoil
>
>25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)


Tod, what was the free recoil of that elephant rifle again?  For 
comparison.  I found your earlier calculations on the M1, M16, and gauss 
rifle, which were two orders of magnitude lower and then some compared to 
the above 65 gram bullet.

Hm, I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and plug in numbers for known 
weapons and science fiction weapons from time to time.  Then post on a Web 
site so all interested parties can reference it from time to time.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:15:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:15:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>

From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>

     "It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over 
me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar."


Mr. Uhl,

     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what lobsters 
eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!
     Underwater, where those disgusting little buggers live, oils acts as 
odors do for we land animals.  Thus, the bait in each trap must release LOTS 
of nice oils for our shell-bound critters to sense and trail back to the 
trap.  Also, the bait must be refreshed every other day or so.  (The traps 
need to be checked that frequently too, the lobsters tend to eat one 
another.)
     Preparing bait requires:

One 55 gallon drum
One heavy cleaver
One oar or paddle
One piece of wood you don't mind ruining
Lots of "trash" fish
One strong stomach

     Roughly "cuisinart" each fish by chopping it briskly and roughly with 
the cleaver.  Either leave the pieces hanging together by strips of skin 
and/or bone (the mark of a real pro) or let the chunks collect on your 
cutting board.  When the chunks pile too high, drp them in the drum and tamp 
down hard with the paddle.  Repeat until you run out of fish or ruj out of 
drum.
     The next bit is the most important.  Seal the drum up and then let it 
sit in the sun for a couple of weeks at a minimum.  Every once in a while, 
pop the top and give the contents a violent stirring.
     After the bait has "matured" enough, you can put it to use in the bait 
"purses" for your traps.  You either hump the drum aboard or a couple of 5 
gallon pails of the stuff when you go out to check the traps.  As each trap 
is hauled aboard, you have a freshly filled, plastic purse ready to re-bait 
the trap.  The lobsterman removes and measures the damn things while you 
fish out the used purse and put to fresh on it it's place.  Then the empty 
trap and fresh bait gets heaved overboard.
     It get pretty routine after a while and your nose shuts down.  I 
suspect it must be a little like working in a slaughter house.  You just 
don't notice certain things anymore.
     The first time I opened a bait barrel, I fed the fishes until I ran out 
of "chum".  Ma Whipsnade wouldn't allow me to wear my lobstering clothes 
anywhere near the house.  I had to change in the shed out back and run into 
the cellar to wash in a galvanized tub there.  You don't get paid in money 
either, instead a certain number of trpas are "yours" and you can keep or 
sell whatever is in them.  Not a bad job, I got a boat and car out of it, 
but I was happy to start in the screw machine shop once I was legal.  
Chlorinated oil is nothing compared to bait!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen



_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:19:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:19:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <20020410.133548.-8347.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hey Everybody,

Please feel free to utilize my two new characters IYTU.
If you do, please pass back any updated stats, thank you.

Barista Corrt [roll the R's] - Vilani Hybrid [pick any world]
UPP 768786
18 years young
Very attractive, 
shoulder length blond hair, green eyes
5' 5" 115 lbs
34B-24-34
soft spoken, but tough
New job as a barmaid at Starbucks in Startown.


Barst Cortor - BarbarianBrave
UPP A98342
30 years
Survival-0, Sword-1 [broadsword], Hand Combat-2
Brutish appearance, scared muscular body
long black hair, black eyes
7 foot tall 300 lb
50" chest, 34 - 34
gruff, hash demeanor
New job as a bouncer at Starbucks in Startown.
[due to the brawl at the haul across town]


Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20410.140930.5r1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> jimv wrote:
>> Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
>> an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
>> move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
>> suppression, they move toward each other much faster
>> than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
>> I wrong?
>
> If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
> on each ion, then it is true.
>
> If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
> to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
> factor of 10.

Which causes *other* problems, because that changes the ratio of the
electromagnetic forces to the nuclear forces in the atom. And changing
the strength of the nuclear forces affects the stability of the nucleus
in other ways. 

Also, there are other "forces" involved in chemical reactions that
depend on the strength of the charges, but not on the *square* of the
strength (ie the don't follow an inverse square law).

So changing the charge affects those also. And not in proportion to
each other.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:23:56 2002
Subject: [TML] testing, Ignore
Message-ID: <B8DA068C.393E0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:26:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:26:46 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155951.01dc24b0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8DA0857.393E8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 1:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn on a 65 gram instead of 65 grain bullet:
>> I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.
>> 
>> 69,562 Joules of energy
>> 1,130 joules of free recoil
>> 
>> 25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)
> 
> 
> Tod, what was the free recoil of that elephant rifle again?  For
> comparison.  I found your earlier calculations on the M1, M16, and gauss
> rifle, which were two orders of magnitude lower and then some compared to
> the above 65 gram bullet.
> 
> Hm, I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and plug in numbers for known
> weapons and science fiction weapons from time to time.  Then post on a Web
> site so all interested parties can reference it from time to time.

a 9 lbs rifle firing a 500 gn slug at 2100 fps has a free recoil energy of
85 Joules.  Just use the form at http://travellercentral.com/rules/ke.html.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:29:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:29:07 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
References: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4A451.4020608@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Have to tip the guide as well.  Most expensive deer I ever 
> ate.  It's what happens when a culture is based entirely on a 
> layered bureaucracy.

That's what happens when you've had no real wilderness for hundreds and 
hundreds of years...you might as well have gone 'hunting' in a corral.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:30:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:30:34 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B8D9F3BB.38CFC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:32:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (listmom)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:32:01 2002
Subject: [TML] test
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204101430010.1171-100000@rhylanor>

this is a test


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:33:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Nick Wright)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:33:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
Message-ID: <001101c1e0d7$3860c120$a8fb883e@fg>

The BBC have reported on what the nattily dressed US soldier will be wearing
on tomorrow's battlefield.  It is a bit worrying though that uniforms will
be "nearly invisible" (4th para).  Where's the Sarge going to sew his
stripes?

Check out

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1908000/1908729.stm

I remain, etc, etc.

Nick Wright


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] List Problems
Message-ID: <B8DA09B3.393F4%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Sorry about the delayed mail, all.  Seems I has some file locking issues
with the list server.  I initially assumed the problem was do to some
systems changes I made, so I did a roll-back only to fins the prblem was
unrelated.

Mail seems to be flowing now.  Please report problems to
listmom@travellercentral.com

Thanks for your patience.

Tod


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:38:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:38:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Counterterrorism
References: <B8DA068C.393E0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <019c01c1e0e0$04f78130$09d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Gentles,

In addition to creating the new TNE sourcebook, finishing up the truly
fabulous T20 rules, and making sure the cats get fed, I'm also doing some
work in counter-terrorism.

Sadly, I don't get to shoot suicide bombers or anything. What I'm doing is
helping promote an organisaton called NSI which is dedicatd to various
anti-terrorist activities.

To this end I need to place articles and generally promote interest in the
organisation.

Anyone whho feels that they may be able to help, or with something to offer,
please contact me offlist.

The technology to prevent a new Sept 11th exists now, yet many of the
measures taken by our governments are nothing but placebos. We could change
that.

Anyone?

Regards

MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020410191917.B3737@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020411083544.A5842@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> I get the feeling that you're trying to change constants rather than
> looking at the problem as a closed system where all four fundamental
> forces are modified in the same ratio (actually, I'm still hazy on
> whether or not gravity should be included in this).

Gravity is essentially irrelevant, barring any unknown effects of
quantum gravity.  Besides, you would have to *strengthen* gravity to
get the same relative effects.  So it shouldn't have the same ratio as
other forces anyway.

Apart from that, your goal is to have the behaviour of atoms (and more
complex systems) behave in the same way as before inertial
suppression, correct?  This requires more than just changing the
strength of forces.


> To do so, I think we really need to look at the most simple
> problems, involving only a single atom or a pair of atoms.

OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
just one simple example.

Hence inertial suppression requires more than just changing the
strength of forces.  If you want the atoms to behave the same way, you
need to alter fundamental constants as well.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:42:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:42:45 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155047.01de3120@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018477349.495.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> 
> Give credit to the guy, not the drug.  Nobody at TL 8 or lower makes a drug
>  that can turn an average soldier into the Terminator.  I don't discount
> the  drug making a difference, but like that.  For at least those last few 
> seconds of his life, that poor guy was one of the bravest and toughest 
> people in the world.  Drugged or not.

Actually, no, the drug could easily be responsible.  Much of the reason for
people falling down when shot is that they know they ought to, and drugs can
dull the pain response and/or make you too stupid to realize you've been shot.

The fact that he stood there are got shot several times by an M60 may suggest
why the use of combat drugs is discouraged.  People who are heavily drugged are
not usually known for their good tactics.
> 
> Or, it may just be that he was being spun around so much he hadn't fallen, 
> and the machinegunner was too anxious to wait for him to fall and just kept
>  firing.  Weird flukes like that kind of thing happen fairly often.
> 
> It's a really ugly business to be in.
> 
> --Laning
> 
> PS  Oh and thanks for the advice on SR-25 and AR-10.  Now if we can only 
> get my wife to be able to sleep at night if there's a firearm in the 
> house.  Not gonna happen.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:44:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:44:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
References: <20020410195114.49017.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <014a01c1e0de$3d265b50$09d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>   >>
>   That's easily explained: Swords never run out of
> ammo, and are a lot harder to break... ;-P~
> 

A broken sword is still a weapon to be respected. This I know....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:46:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:46:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
 <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410182447.0390c460@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:37 PM 4/10/2002, laning wrote:
>Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
>detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination

Classic Traveller allowed a starship to determine if gas giants were 
present in another star system from a 1 parsec range.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:49:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:49:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGNCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Craig Berry <cberry@cine.net>
>
>You recall correctly, and in my mind this is sufficient to explain how the
>Terrans managed their initial victories while outnumbered and outgunned
>thousands to one (taking into account the full Vilani might).  I get the
>strong sense that the Ziru Sirka practiced "shoot the messenger"-style
>management a great deal; the status quo and normal operations were

This is my opinion, as well.  China in the 1700s-1800s operated in much the
same way.

>I am very strongly of the opinion that the local Vilani governor knew all
>about the Terrans; probably several of them did, over the century or two
>immediately preceding official contact.  Remember, the ZS was quite used
>to encountering minor human races as it expanded, and I'm sure there were
>exhaustively documented procedures and case studies on how to proceed with
>their integration into the ZS.  The Terrans simply didn't operate
>according to the 'rules', and the governor was terrified to report this
>fully to his superiors.  The rest is (future) history.

I think the Vegans are what we in contemporary times call the Grays.  They
have been surreptitiously visiting Earth for a while to help us develop into
a human force that can get rid of the Vilani, with whom the Vegans have
never really gotten along.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Lost Causes
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17951@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

The Dougster:
In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat 
in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?

Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public 
opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the 
region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.

Mikey:
The US were never really going to win that one. As Uncle Ho is fondly
remembered saying 'I am willing to lose 10 men for each one of yours'. Hell,
I think the toll in Vietnam for the conflict was about a million on the
Communist side. So given loses of 50k for the US that's like 20 to 1. 

Besides it's a bit hard to 'save' a country that won't save itself. 

My 0.02 of course, so don't roast me slowly over a verbal BBQ.

I'm studying Vietnam now at uni. I particularly enjoyed the battle of Ap Bac
(?), which got turned into a major propaganda piece about the South wiping
the floor with Communist insurgents. When the smoke cleared they found just
3 bodies....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:56:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:56:39 2002
Subject: [TML] test
References: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204101430010.1171-100000@rhylanor>
Message-ID: <3CB4BE9A.1155267C@premier.net>


listmom wrote:
> 
> this is a test

Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled in terror, and you
would not have been informed.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:59:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:59:21 2002
Subject: [TML] test 5, ignore
Message-ID: <B8DA0282.393D4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:00:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:00:52 2002
Subject: [TML] another test
Message-ID: <B8DA059C.393DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:03:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:03:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20410.144847.1G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> jimv wrote:
>> > in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is
>> > that if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we
>> > would prefer that neither of them drop.
>> 
>> Yes, that's one effect.  For example, light photons have sufficient
>> energy to cause certain chemical changes in pigments in the eye;
>> that's how we see.
>> 
>> If the chemical energies are a hundred times lower and Planck's
>> constant is unchanged, a light photon doesn't just affect sensitive
>> pigments, it rips electrons out of stable molecules and breaks
>> chemical bonds.  That's what we normally call "ionising radiation".
>> 
>> We can't just use light that has a hundred times lower frequency,
>> because it has a hundred times longer wavelength.  OK, I guess we can,
>> but it involves changing the speed of light...
>
> I get the feeling that you're trying to change constants rather than
> looking at the problem as a closed system where all four fundamental
> forces are modified in the same ratio (actually, I'm still hazy on
> whether or not gravity should be included in this). To do so, I think
> we really need to look at the most simple problems, involving only a
> single atom or a pair of atoms. Otherwise, we may be dealing with a
> system that is too complex to really analyze completely. I'd like to
> return to the previous example, involving electron orbits. I'm going
> to reiterate from my prevous post.

The problem is, different things depend on *different* ratios. 

Some depend on things like the charge to mass ratio of particles.
Others depend on things like the ratios of the *squares* of of things.
And some are things like square roots. Or weirder ratios. 

You *can't* make them all match. 
 
> you write:
>> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
>> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
>> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
>> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
>> well.
>
> Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
> energy level of an electron in an atom?

Momentum, charge, Planck's constant, maybe a few other things.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:05:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:05:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20410.141449.7E5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> jimv wrote:
>> > Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
>> > an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
>> > move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
>> > suppression, they move toward each other much faster
>> > than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
>> > I wrong?
>> 
>> If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
>> on each ion, then it is true.
>> 
>> If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
>> to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
>> factor of 10.
>
> Under the premise of the inertial suppression idea, inertia
> is defined as the electromagnetic drag caused by mass accellerating
> through the zero point field (essentially due to subatomic interactions
> with virtual photons). So, if this were the case, it might hold true
> that the EM force would be reduced by inertial suppression, at least if
> one assumes that EM forces are transferred via virtual photons, sort of
> like the way waves on the ocean are transferred through the water
> molecules making up the waves (you physicists on the list can probably
> laugh at this statement... I'm really showing my ignorance here).

That's a hypothesis that doesn't have a lot of backing. Nor are matters
that simple.

> Anyway,
> off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to make this
> work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the square-root of the
> inertial suppression factor. If we make that handwave, which is
> certainly a god-being-nice type to rule to make, then I'd imagine
> that we've got gravity & EM both covered. However, if anyone can
> provide a counterexample, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Alas, you've just changed to speed of light by doing this. 

Then there are thins like the fine structure constant:

u*c*e^2/2h

where
u = permeability of a vacuum
c = speed of light in a vacuum
e = charge of the electron
h = Plank's constant

Change the value of *that* and all sorts of stuff goes to hell.

Which means your changes have to be such that its value remains
unchanged. By the time you are done dinking around with that, things
have gotten *way* too complicated.

> Also, there's still the weak and strong forces to think about. Since
> weak is purportedly linked to EM, one would expect some sort of similar
> square-root drop off. As for the strong force, I have no idea. -Jim

The weak force and the electromagnetic force are different aspects of
the electro-weak force just as electric and magnetic field effects are
different aspects of the electromagnetic force (see Maxwells
equations).

The strong force and gravity (and the color force that quarks exert on
each other) may or may not be realated to the electr-weak forces in
various ways.

We can't achieve the energies required to check out the strong and
color forces, and gravity is so damned *weak* it's hard to experiment
with.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:07:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:07:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20410.143404.7i6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> You should likewise reduce the strength of the strong and weak forces.
>
> Okay... so I guess we need to suppose that all these forces get dropped
> by the same factor.

Alas, some effects that are important to trivial things like *life*
depend on various odd *powers* (square, square rooe 3/2 power, etc) of
the strength of these forces.

>> Now, just Planck's constant to deal with :)
>
> Okay... I'm totally clueless, but:
> E=hv, where h = planck's constant and v = frequency
> (note: i have no idea what i'm taking about)
> in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is that
> if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we would prefer
> that neither of them drop.

Another form has Planck's constant equalling the product of the
uncertainty in the positon and the uncertainty in the momentum of a
particle.

Planck's constant is behind *all* quantum effects. and it basicly says
how "granular" the universe is. 

Changing it by *tiny* amounts would have *major* effects on the way the
universe works.

>> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
>> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
>> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
>> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
>> well.
>
> Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
> energy level of an electron in an atom?

> I've heard that the atomic nucleus is held together by the interplay
> between the strong and weak forces, the strong force keeping the
> positively charged protons together while the weak force tries to
> rip them apart.

No. The electromagnetic repulsion of all those protons in the nucleus
tries to rip it apart. The weak force does stuff like hold neutrons
together (a neutron is effectively a "bound state" odf a proton, an
electron and an anti-neutrino). 

> I suppose that since this idea of taming the quantum
> foam should reduce both forces equally, the stability of the
> nucleus would be uneffected (the effects of the strong & weak force
> reductions should cancel out).

If only it was that simple. Among other things, the strong and weak
forces *don't* oney the inverse square law *and* they have a maximum
range. This is because they use exchange particles that have mass, as
opposed to the massless exchange particles (photons and gravitons) used
by the electromagnetic and gravitational forces. 

Oh shit....

There's another way to read that equation you gave up above. 

E = h*v

E = uncertainty in energy of a system
v = time interval
h = Planck's constant.

That's *how* exchange particles work. The energy of the virtual
particle is higher the shorter the time it has to exist (or vice
versa). Changing Planck's constant messes with that too. 

> However, I'm not sure how to handle the problem of electrons, which
> you mention above. But I'll try to tackle it anyway, so what follows
> it totally off the cuff. I'm guessing that the electromagnetic force
> keeps electrons attracted to the positively charged atomic nucleus
> and repulsed by each other, hence accounting for their movements
> (of course, this probably falls apart at some level, but bear with
> me). Well, I'm just guessing here, but if their movements are determined
> by the repulsive & attractive effects of the same force (electromagnetic),
> then reducing that force should have no net effect, as reduction in
> repulsion will be perfectly offset by the reduction in attraction.
> In short, and I'm no physics major, so correct me if I'm wrong,
> once again what I would expect is that these changes cancel out,
> resulting in there being no need to change Planck's constant.

Afraid not. 

For one thing, electrons are just barely what we normally think of as
particles. They aren't little billiard balls. They are more in the
nature of fuzzyt little "clouds". The electron is most likely *here*,
but could be clear over *there*. More like a ball of fog than anything
we are familiar wuith from everyday life.

I'd need a lot of time with books (and more recent exposure to quantum
mechanics) to even begn to figure out what would happen at the atomic
and subatomic levels.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Worst Job in the world
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17953@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Robert A. Uhl
It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over
me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar.

I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

Mikey:
Here in government service we like to bitch and moan about our lot in life.
I just forwarded this on to my co-workers to remind us all we don't have it
so bad.

Thanks man. 

PS I once got fired from cotton chipping, one of the more menial jobs in
life and one where ex convicts can find gainful employment. I was forced to
hitch into town (30 klicks) and was picked up by an insane Kiwi shearer (he
looked like John English for you Oz types), whose dayglo orange combi was
circa 60's and decorated in peace stickers. He proceeded to laugh manically
and go for three animals with his vehicle that made the mistake in trying to
cross the road. 

I got dropped off early. 

The whole trip, which involved catching a lift with a friend and staying in
the worst trailer park (aka cravan park) in western civilisation, ended up
costing $80.

I was not meant for menial work. 

Ob Trav: Travellers are not meant for menial work either. That's why
invariably they end up doing something illegal. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F221lf8nFJ3VTPlu4kA0000f71e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB575BB.18754.8358A9@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 15:20, Sam D wrote:

> Tod Glen wrote:>Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 
> over 7.62x51mm
> >ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
> >is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
> >any particular caliber.
> 
> It is a tuff call.  It appears that the 5.56mm does actually make bigger 
> wounds, as long as there is sufficient tissue to penetrate, as long as the 
> velocity is above 2700 fps.  With an M16 that is like 200- yards; with the 
> M4 it is only 100-140 yards.  After that range, you are better off with the 
> bigger round.  And the 7.62x51 certainly penetrates through cover better at 
> all ranges.  But however you weigh those tradeoffs, there is no doubt that 
> you are going to have to be carrying around an extra 5-10 pounds of gear 
> with the bigger rifle.

Excuse me? How much ammo are you thinking of? For dangerous game 
hunting (the original question) 20 rounds is more than enough, and 
there's no real need for a 10 pound battle rifle. A 7.5 pound light 
sporter will do fine (and that's what my father's PH Magestic from the 
early 60's weighed with scope, etc.), and that's less weight than an 
M16A2.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:40:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:40:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D99957.382D9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 7:25, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/9/02 11:36 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
> 
> > And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting
> > results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting
> > dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or
> > .308?  Or something else?
> 
> You forgot to add:  "Using ball ammunition only".
> 
> We are speaking of military weapons here, so let's get the ammo right.
> There is no question that if ammunition selection is not restricted,
> 7.62x51mm is more lethal.
> 
> Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 over 7.62x51mm
> ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
> is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
> any particular caliber.

I think that this depends a lot on the exact game. If it's leopards, 
small lions or people the 5.56 could well be better, but on thick-
skinned game (not that there's a huge amount in that size range), like 
wild boar the 7.62x51 even with ball would be a better choice IMO, 
because it has better penetration. All the wounding potential in the 
world won't help you if the bullet stops on the outside of a boar's 
shoulderblade.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 4:38 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

>> You forgot to add:  "Using ball ammunition only".
>> 
>> We are speaking of military weapons here, so let's get the ammo right.
>> There is no question that if ammunition selection is not restricted,
>> 7.62x51mm is more lethal.
>> 
>> Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 over 7.62x51mm
>> ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
>> is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
>> any particular caliber.
> 
> I think that this depends a lot on the exact game. If it's leopards,
> small lions or people the 5.56 could well be better, but on thick-
> skinned game (not that there's a huge amount in that size range), like
> wild boar the 7.62x51 even with ball would be a better choice IMO,
> because it has better penetration. All the wounding potential in the
> world won't help you if the bullet stops on the outside of a boar's
> shoulderblade.

I think the hint was 180-200 lbs dangerous game (meaning people)

My first choice for all around game hunting of large animals (over 150 lbs)
and using non-expanding bullets would probably be my .458 Witworth.  It is
reasonably accurate to about 200 yards with express sites ( a ghost ring
would be preferable, but not 'right').  I can load anywhere from  55 - 72
grains of 4895 and go with bullets from 300-500+ grains.  My 'plinking' load
is a 405 gn hard cast bullet in front of 62 gns of 4895.  Plenty of bang for
just about anything.  I suspect the 500 gn monolithic solids would work well
on most game too, as well as the occasional car.

Note that this is strictly a short range load.  No 600 meter head shots.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>

Starship Insurance - Theft and Casualty - Claims

Having dutifully obtained your Theft and Casualty insurance, and having paid
your premiums on time and in full every month, you find yourself set upon by
pirates just short of jump point.  You are careful to respond to them in a
way that will not void your policy (we'll get to that later) and they wind
up taking your ship and leaving you adrift in an escape pod.

It's time to file your theft claim, whereupon your insurer will promptly pay
you. (Hysterical laughter slowly subsides.)

Basics of filing a claim:  The claim must be filed in a timely manner.  The
insured must take steps to mitigate damages.

Timely filing of a claim simply means to report your loss to your agent or a
claims representative a soon as possible.

Mitigation of damages means a reasonable exercise of common sense and effort
to ensure that your loss doesn't get worse, and that (if possible) it will
get better.  In the event of theft, reporting the theft to law enforcement
and other authorities would be a part of mitigation.  Damage should be dealt
with immediately to prevent further damge.  If one of the power regulators
is spiking in a way that endangers the jump-drive, a smart policy-holder
will reroute power around the faulty regulator, or delay jump until a
replacement can be had.  If the policy-holder ignores the power regulator
problem, attempts jump without dealing with it, and slags his J-drive, the
insurance company will likely decide to cover the regulator but not the
J-drive.  Why?  The policy-holder took no steps to mitigate damages.

Failure to file the claim in a timely manner, as well failure to mitigate,
can both be flags for insurance fraud.  Other fraud flags could be (but
certainly wouldn't be limited to):  recent purchase of policy, recent
increase in coverage or additions of riders, key crewmembers who can't be
located, vessels recent past can't be accounted for, etc.

When a claim is filed, the insurance company assigns an adjustor.  The
adjustor's job is to "adjust" the amount paid to the policyholder based upon
the covarage of the policy and the circumstances surrounding the claim.  If
at any step in the process the adjustor can find a reason to deny the claim,
the insurance company wins, the policy-holder loses, and the adjuster gets
an "attabeing" from the company.

One of the first steps the adjustor will take is to gather all relevant
documents they can.  First, because it is readily available, would be a copy
of the policy and all riders as well as the policy-holder's premium payment
history.  If the policy-holder (hereafter p-h) missed a payment, and
coverage was not in effect at the time of loss: claim denied.

Next the adjustor would look at insurance loss report(s) filed by the p-h
(not just for this claim but for any past claims of the p-h -- the adjustor
has to look for those fraud flags.)  Adjustor will further review police and
system defense authority reports, maintenance and repair records, ship's
log, ship's officer's logs, statements taken from the ship's officers and
crew, police and defense officials, and any witnesses to the loss.

Pursuant to all this, the adjustor will use the services of one or more
field investigators, who may be employees of the insurance company, or may
be independent investigators working on a contract basis.  The investigator
will be collecting documents, interviewing and taking statements from
sophonts, examining and documenting damage to the vessel, examing and
documenting the scene of loss, and generally doing legwork for the adjustor.
(Remember, the adjustor handles more than one claim at a time.)

Processing claims where the loss takes place outside a system where an
adjustor is present will be a drawn out process.  A claims decision
involving a loss of the magnitude of a starship would probably take the
better part of a year to process, even with instantaneous communication.

Sometimes the insurance company will actually pay a claim.  If the ship was
damaged, p-h will be paid for repair of damage or replacement of systems
(minus deductible.) Note that such repair and replacement will have already
long since been done in most cases.  The average owner-operator must keep
travelling in order to remain economically viable.

If the ship suffered damage that would cost more to repai than the ship is
worth the ship will be declared a total loss. Same thing if the ship was
stolen.  Note that if the insurer pays out on a total loss, the ship (or
what's left of it) becomes the property of the insurance company.  If the
ship is recovered from the thieves or found in an interstellar chop shop,
the insurance company will be the entity entitled to have the vessel.
(Presumably salvage law would kick in after some period prescribed by
black-letter law, at which point the ship would belong to whoever recovered
it.)

More later.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Near Star List - it's growing
Message-ID: <200204110010.DUF04546@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I listen to Stardate on NPR every evening, and today they 
were talking about the stars within 4 parsecs (see the map at 
their website stardate.org).  Apparently, there are more 
stars than previously known within a "short" distance of the 
Sun.

One example is a search for nearby stars -- some of our 
closest neighbors in all the universe. 

The project is headed by Todd Henry of Georgia State 
University. Team members are searching the heavens with 
fairly small telescopes in Chile. They're aiming mainly at 
faint, cool stars known as red dwarfs. Many of our closest 
neighbors are red dwarfs. But they're so faint that not a 
single one is visible to the unaided eye. 

The astronomers are watching the stars for many months to see 
which ones move against the background of other stars -- a 
motion that reveals which stars are close by. It's like 
holding up your finger and looking at it first with one eye, 
then the other; the finger appears to move back and forth 
against the background. 

By measuring this motion, the astronomers have discovered 13 
new stars within 33 light-years of Earth. The closest of the 
bunch is just 12 light-years away, making it the 20th closest 
known star system. 

________________
When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 16:51, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I think the hint was 180-200 lbs dangerous game (meaning people)

I assumed that we were looking at choices for other dangerous game to 
see if it illuminated the dissucssion of what should be used a people 
(a very thin-skinned type of dangerous game).
 
> My first choice for all around game hunting of large animals (over
> 150 lbs) and using non-expanding bullets would probably be my .458
> Witworth.  It is reasonably accurate to about 200 yards with express
> sites ( a ghost ring would be preferable, but not 'right').  I can
> load anywhere from  55 - 72 grains of 4895 and go with bullets from
> 300-500+ grains.  My 'plinking' load is a 405 gn hard cast bullet in
> front of 62 gns of 4895.  Plenty of bang for just about anything.  I
> suspect the 500 gn monolithic solids would work well on most game
> too, as well as the occasional car. 

My first choice would probably be a .375 H&H. Much though I admire 
Weatherbys they cost too much and are generally over-powered if you're 
using solids - they'd tend to horribly over-penetrate anything but the 
heaviest game. With expansive bullets I'd drop to a .338 Winchester or 
.340 Weatherby unless in Africa, in which case the .375's would be the 
way to go, IMO. .416s and .458/.460s are good vs buffs, elephants, etc. 
but aren't long-range rounds, so you'd need a second rifle for those 
300-500 yard shots on eland, etc.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F195GoE1k8LN6FWe7Xl0000b978@hotmail.com>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

     "This is my opinion, as well.  China in the 1700s-1800s operated in 
much the same way."


Mr. Goffin,

     I don't like to stretch the Imperial China-Ziru Sirka analogy too far.  
1700 China was already behind in the technology race, despite some very 
notable and very early firsts; compasses, stern post rudders, gunpowder, 
paper, printing, etc.  They just never put it all together for a variety of 
reasons.  The Ming dynasty actually had to beg the Jesuits for cannon 
founders in the mid-1600s while they were tangling with the Manchus.  Yuo, 
West-to-East tehnology transfers were happening that early.
     The Ziru Sirka, while stagnant, is ahead of the Terrans in the tech 
race.  Sure the Terrans can catch up, if they're given the time.  I just 
can't quite understand why they were given the time.
     The Imperial China the "Southern Barbarians" began contacting in the 
1500's was in one of it's disintergration phases.  The Ming were on the way 
out, the Manchus were trying to get in, pirates and warlords abounded.  The 
periphary was unravelling, Taiwan was a pirate kingdom that the Chinese paid 
the Dutch to tackle for them, Korea either lost to the Japanese or 
independent, Tibet gone, the far west lost to various horse peoples.  The 
Ming were straining every nerve just to keep the lid on, and they failed.  
After them, the Manchu were nothing more than a foreign dynasty simply 
trying to remain in power.  They restored nothing of China's former power or 
borders, even losing more territory as their dynasty went on.
     Does any of that sound like the Ziru Sirka to you?
     When they met the Terrans, the Vilani were keeping a ZS boot on the 
necks of umpteen minor races, races and home worlds that the Vilani were 
able to keep quiet even as the Terrans racked up victory after victory.  
There is no mention of these plethora of minor races rising in revolt, all 
we hear about is their "welcoming their Terran liberators."  How were the 
Vilani able to keep all those minor races down, how were they able to play 
power politics with Vargr merc pawns, how were they able to still do all of 
that, and STILL lose to a single system polity?

     "I think the Vegans are what we in contemporary times call the Grays.  
They have been surreptitiously visiting Earth for a while to help us develop 
into a human force that can get rid of the Vilani, with whom the Vegans have 
never really gotten along."

     That's part of my take on the whole problem.  The Terran Confederation 
victory over the Ziru Sirka is more along the lines of Cortez versus the 
Aztecs; i.e lots of native allies, and most decidely not a case of "Terra 
Uber Alles."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:38:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:38:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
<snip consideration of various calibers>

I'm trying to make up my mind between the .375 and the .338.  
Since I'm in N. America, it may be the .338. 

The situations that Traveller characters find themselves in 
are rarely more than a few opponents, and most are armed 
(depending on the GM, of course) with pistols and short range 
weapons.  In one past campaign, I did rather well with a 
single-shot falling block rifle in .375 H&H.  I was playing a 
PH, and this was my "walking about" rifle.  I was infamous 
for killing three other player characters by shooting down 
their custom air raft (first shot hit the driver through the 
front, the second shot disabled the powerplant and the other 
two plummeted to their deaths).

If you also consider that Traveller gun combat is at about 
the same range as a Cape Buffalo encounter, and you're 
probably going to live for about as many shots (two, maybe 
three), then I think that whatever makes a good Cape Buffalo 
weapon might make a good Traveller combat weapon.

Let's see.  We'll make it .416 Remington, since we can still 
get Speer tungsten core solids. 

The rifle should be a 4-shot controlled-feed pre-64 
Winchester action (with fixed ejector).  Barrel length should 
be 22 inches, and we'll go with a muzzle brake.  The stock 
should be optimized for firing on your hind legs, and we'll 
put a Trijicon Reflex sight on top, with express sights just 
in case that gets broken.

A PH should be able to get two or three quick aimed shots off 
with something like this.  I haven't seen many Traveller-
style combats last more than a few combat rounds. And you'll 
only have to hit another human *once* with something like 
this.  Tod might make it a .458, though.

Get yourself a pouch that holds 20 rounds, maybe keep 40 
rounds in your pack.  More than enough for most Traveller 
adventures.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDHDKAA.tml@downport.com>

Chumming is for guys not strong enough to be sternman :p

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade

>     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what
lobsters
>eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!

And just think, filters (clams, oysters, etc.) eat what settles on the
bottom after it went through the lobster or crab. Shrimp eat floaties. But
I'd still eat a lobster before I'd chow down on their landlubber cousins,
the spiders :x



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 19:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 10 18:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
In-Reply-To: <001101c1e0d7$3860c120$a8fb883e@fg>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410180651.009f12d0@mindspring.com>

At 10:32 PM 4/10/02 +0100, you wrote:
>The BBC have reported on what the nattily dressed US soldier will be wearing
>on tomorrow's battlefield.  It is a bit worrying though that uniforms will
>be "nearly invisible" (4th para).  Where's the Sarge going to sew his
>stripes?

Considering the stripes worn on the BDU are barely visible now, I don't 
think it is that big of a deal.

I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet 
cover.  In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 19:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 18:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410182447.0390c460@mail.qrc.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>
 <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
 <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020410205024.00a6ead0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 06:25 PM 4/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>At 03:37 PM 4/10/2002, laning wrote:
>>Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
>>detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination
>
>Classic Traveller allowed a starship to determine if gas giants were 
>present in another star system from a 1 parsec range.

I would suggest looking at Adventure 4(?) Leviathan and AM4: Zhodani for 
information on explorations.  Another good website would be 
http://www.securityleak.net/slm/index.html and check out Security Leak #5 
for a detailed look at the Zhodani Core Expeditions.

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
References: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <fos9busmdg2u2fv6oem9hlloq0u375f62e@4ax.com>

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 20:12:13 +0000, "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

>From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
>
>     "It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all =
over=20
>me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
>clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
>from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
>awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar."
>
>Mr. Uhl,
>
>     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what =
lobsters=20
>eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!

We seem to be in the midst of "onedownsmanship" here, with each
account somehow managing to add to the general disgusting flavor of
the thread.

Unless all and sundry truly wish to see an avalanche of reports of
keyboard kills due to the ever rising gorge of the list readers, I
sincerely hope that our talented TML writers bend their very effective
and evocative writing skills to subjects less nauseating.

I do, however, appreciate those descriptions we've seen thus far.  I
pity of character (either literary or RPG) who earns the need to fill
similar roles.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
Message-ID: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).  
But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You 
know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or 
perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.

Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I 
need a bit of camp now and then.
________________
When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:38:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:38:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDHDKAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4F721.DEF69043@sympatico.ca>

Swordy wrote:

> Chumming is for guys not strong enough to be sternman :p
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
>
> >     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what
> lobsters
> >eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!

The job I truly hated, regularly cleaning backed up greased traps in a Burger
King.

A friend job that I fear to visualize:

Giving enemas to elephants, with a 27 pound suppository in my right hand (
gloved to the neck) and a hose in my left hand.  A broom and a shovel for the
resultant mess, nearby.

Although, I would take that over being the individual at a dog / cat food
company who does the taste testing to ensure the labels are correct.

OR

The number one job I do not want to know about or visualize:

The person at a thermometer company who personally tests every rectal
thermometer to meet the print on the packages that reads: "Every one of our
product personally tested to ensure quality."

Michael



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cory Davis)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>

Hi all

just a quick comment, I have been reading M16 vs everything else topic with 
interest and big game hunting rifles just came up, and I realised in all 
the descriptions of peoples campaigns, its all gauss rifles and FGMPs

I just like to say in our games (GT) the weapon of choice were always Gauss 
- LAG (basically, a LEMG-20 with a shorter barrel, I made it up 6 months 
before Ground Forces came out) as with a wide range of ammo it can do all 
sorts of things

we have used fletchettes for unarmoured targets, the APFSDSHD will 
penetrate about 300DR and once we used baton rounds when we had a job as 
repo men (they didn't mark the ship up too much). the best thing about them 
was after a firefight they don't leave many holes, in fact even if fighting 
opponents in battledress on board a ship, afterwards the ship is usually 
still useable, I say usually once we accidently broke the powerplant

I've always thought that due to the high level of personal armour in 
traveller, at high TLs weapons would be designed for penetration rather 
than ROF or explosive fragmentation

oh well back to the discussion of the pros and cons of M16s and big game rifles

(our other game is a pulp horror game and the elephant gun is a staple)

cheers

Cory


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:09:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:09:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
In-Reply-To: <200203310432.DAH01551@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4C5A5.15107.6D8006@localhost>

Hi John,

A little late (as usual, I'm many days behind in reading the 
TML), but I'd like to see a copy of this as well (or let me know
if you've posted it somewhere and I'll get it there).

thanks!

Rob D.

On 30 Mar 2002 at 23:32, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Just finished going through what will be a rather long 
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units 
> in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may 
> differ.
> 
> But..  I need more input.  I've just moved a current day 
> document a fair number of years into the future (out to TL10, 
> so far), and I would like to take it a bit further, say TL12.
> 
> I am interested in anyone's input concerning what might be 
> standard operating procedure (instructions to individual 
> soldiers, teams, and platoons).  Some of the detail I have is 
> down to the items to carry.
> 
> I am especially interested in what might be SOP in regards to 
> weapons, employment of specific weapons (such as, "always use 
> the plasma gun to break contact").
> 
> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing 
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages 
> so far.
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
> 

--
Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com
'Calvin, we will not have an anatomically correct snowman!'




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:10:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:10:48 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Sci Fi Books that are Ob Trav
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1791D@r1clex01.cbr.defe
 nce.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410230528.01ae0498@192.168.0.1>

At 01:59 PM 4/8/2002 +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
>I know I am a tad late in this thread but it occurred to be the other day
>that a very Ob Trav type series of books were the Amtrak Wars by Patrick
>Tilley. Hi Tech underground civilisation fighting mad max esq mutated
>barbarians. The descriptions of the underground settlements seem very trav,
>monorails, life support levels, you name it.
>
>I'm re-reading them now. I liked them as a teenager and, ten years later,
>they're still pretty good.
>
>In fact it would make a great GURPS sourcebook. Doug Berry come on down.

For more examples of Traveller, and Traveller like fiction, take a look at:
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/travfic.html>


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:13:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:13:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA> <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <20020411131133.A6552@freeman.little-possums.net>

Antony Farrell wrote:
> Contrary to popular opinion there are stars in the gaps between the
> arms, the spirals themselves being defined by bright stars. But as
> to how many stars and whether fuel sources could be found there?

There should be quite a few red and brown dwarfs in there, just fewer
bright stars.  The actual stellar density isn't a lot lower, as far as
I've heard.  On top of that, there's bound to be a whole bunch of
sub-planetary objects that should make excellent fuel sources.


> Assuming the ships were built to TL14 or 15 standard this means jump
> 5 or 6 maximum, and it is likely that in the "gaps" fuel sources may
> be further apart than this.

I doubt it.  Red dwarf stars aren't expected to be much less numerous
than in the arms, which means about 2 parsecs should get you from one
to the next.  They would have to be 30 times sparser to have a
moderate chance of reaching a dead-end, even if the ships only carry
one jump worth of fuel.  More likely they can carry enough for two
5-parsec jumps (or five 3-parsec ones) by carrying methane, ammonia,
and/or water instead of pure liquid hydrogen.  They can refine it
between jumps if they reach an area without hydrogen.  If the ships
can reduce volume by collapsing empty tanks, they can get even
further on a full load of fuel.

With good TL 12 sensors (e.g. dedicated sensor platforms which extend
after jump), they should be able to spot gas giants from tens of
parsecs away without any trouble.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <200204101359.DTL04671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204101359.DTL04671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020411132024.B6552@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> This backup power generation is probably nuclear fission, which
> allows the ship to potentially go without hydrogen (albeit without
> jumping anywhere) for some time.

I doubt it.  At Traveller tech levels, nuclear fusion is far more
efficient.  It is also far easier to collect fuel :)


> You may also remember Annic Nova.

I remember the rather ... vigorous ... discussion over it :/


> So let's consider a ship with a nuclear fission base 
> powerplant (to keep everyone nice and warm, and provide a 
> little extra power to charge jump accumulators a la Annic 
> Nova).

If you do that, you've just invented a starship that doesn't need jump
fuel at all, with all the strategic implications that follow.


> There might even be additional closed-cycle hydrogen/oxygen 
> fuel cells.

Why?  The chemical energy stored in 100 tons of fuel cells is about
that found in 1 kilogram of fusion fuel.  You're better off ditching
the fuel cells and putting in extra LHyd tankage.  Better still, put
in water tanks and run the stuff through your fuel processor.  Breathe
some of the waste oxygen and dump the rest.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020411004005.5784B27A85@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020410205654.00a53ce0@mailhost.efn.org>

>     When they met the Terrans, the Vilani were keeping a ZS boot on the
>necks of umpteen minor races, races and home worlds that the Vilani were
>able to keep quiet even as the Terrans racked up victory after victory.
>There is no mention of these plethora of minor races rising in revolt, all
>we hear about is their "welcoming their Terran liberators."

Riiiiiight.  And the United States singlehandedly beat Hitler and liberated 
Europe.  Just ask any contemporary 'Merkun.  (Okay, maybe the Limeys helped 
us out some, but not those dirty Reds, no sir.  And definitely not the 
French - all they know how to do is surrender.  What?  The Chinese?  Were 
they *in* WW2?)


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <20020410122225.B21755@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020411041811.1A229279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/10/02 at 12:22 PM,  "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> said:

>It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over
>me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
>clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
>from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
>awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar.

>I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

That sounds like K'kree hell. Only, they'd then have to *eat* their
work. <g>

It also reminds me of Regina UpPort's famous "Stuff on a Stick"
kiosk...that's where all the left over bits end up.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <no.id> from "John T. Kwon" at Apr 10, 2002 10:36:32 PM
Message-ID: <200204110433.g3B4Xpo25315@shell1.aracnet.com>

> Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).  
> But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You 
> know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or 
> perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.

I've always thought that the 2nd Series of 'Tom Swift' books would make for
some interesting background for a game.  The 1st series would probably make
good background for a 'Steam Punk' game.  Unfortunatly I've never gotten
ahold of any of the 'Tom Corbett' books.
 
> Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I 
> need a bit of camp now and then.

I picked up a copy a few years ago when it was reprinted, but have never
played it.  There is also GURPS: Lensman.

			Zane

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410023924.027e4ad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020411045414.13A9B279F9@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/10/02 at 02:42 AM,  laning <laning@wizard.net> said:

>At 10:46 AM 4/10/02 +1000, Mikey (Michael Hughes) wrote: >PBEM:
>>
>>I am thinking about running a PBEM D&D game for a friend. Does anyone know
>>of a How To website out there for running PBEM RPG sessions?

>I was thinking there's a need for the same thing.  Or at least will
>soon be  a need.  Perhaps interested parties should form a new
>mailing list, and  person or persons on that list be appointed to
>cull together an FAQ for WWW  posting?

http://www.pbem.com/  
    (how too's, mailing list server, ads for players and games,
utilities)

    http://www.pbem.com/howto/harrigan.html
        ("Running a Successful PBeM Campaign")

    http://www.pbem.com/howto/argosy.txt
        ("An Argosy of PBEM Advice", also accessable through pbem.com)

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/1999/11/19/text_gaming/index.html
    ("Word Games" from _Salon Magazine_, compares PBEM to other forms)

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/5835/soapbox.html
    ("PBEM Advice")

http://phoenyx.net/pbemlist.html
    (Phoenyx.net: list server, player and game ads, discussion lists)

http://shatteredworld.8m.com/advice.html
    ("Running Your Own PBEM": links to several articles)

http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Role-Playing/RPG.html
    ("What is roleplaying?")

And once you finish reading all that...<g>...you can come lurk in one,
or more, of my PBEM roleplaying games.  


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:12:13PM +0000
References: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020410225606.A23319@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:12:13PM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>
> The lobsterman removes and measures the damn things while you 
> fish out the used purse and put to fresh on it it's place.

For some value of `fresh'...

:-)

What a nasty sounding concoction.  OTOH, it almost sounds like the
_proper_ way to make Roman fish sauce.  For that, one gets a good mess
of fish and cleans them, then puts a layer of salt at the bottom of a
barrel.  Alternate layers of fish and salt up to the top, covering
over with a good bit of salt.  Store in the right conditions and a
kind of fermentation takes place in which the muscles dissolve and the
bones and scales break apart.  Eventually one opens the barrel and
drains off the liquid, leaving behind a gritty dregs.  The liquid is,
essentially, salty fish water.

Not nearly as disgusting as it sounds, I'm told.  Couldn't get me to
try it, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Taliban representative was explaining the good the Taliban had done
for the country.  He started his statement with `We have disarmed the
people...'                          --CNN special: Inside Afghanistan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:12:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:12:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20410.144847.1G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 10, 2002 02:48:47 PM
Message-ID: <200204110412.g3B4CU601389@localhost.uia.net>

Leonard writes:
> The problem is, different things depend on *different* ratios. 
> 
> Some depend on things like the charge to mass ratio of particles.
> Others depend on things like the ratios of the *squares* of of things.
> And some are things like square roots. Or weirder ratios. 
> 
> You *can't* make them all match. 

Even if all four fundamental forces & inertia (i.e. apparent
mass) drop simultaneously by the same factor? Wouldn't then
the ratios between these values (and those other values based
on them) all stay the same? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020411083544.A5842@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 11, 2002 08:35:44 AM
Message-ID: <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>

> Apart from that, your goal is to have the behaviour of atoms (and more
> complex systems) behave in the same way as before inertial
> suppression, correct?  This requires more than just changing the
> strength of forces.

The goal was to theoretically examine inertial suppression as a
means for making high accelleration (say anywhere from 50g to 1000g)
doable for a STL-based RPG, so that we'd be able to have speedy
interstellar travel from a subjective viewpoint (a few days to a few
weeks from the viewpoint of the crew, although it would be years
or even decades from the viewpoint of those not taking the trip).

In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
physics as we know it, and both of you know a lot more about
physics than I do, so it seems that I'm going to have to relent
and give up on this idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes
infeasible, and we're left with FTL (which has already been done
to death). Ah well... -Jim

> > To do so, I think we really need to look at the most simple
> > problems, involving only a single atom or a pair of atoms.
> 
> OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
> the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
> a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
> strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
> hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
> when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
> decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
> just one simple example.

Most of this flies over my head, but I'll see if I can figure it out and
then get back to ya later... -Jim
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>

Greetings!

In many of the games I've run or played in, the weapon of choice for short 
range combat is invariably a 10-gauge drum fed automatic shotgun (modeled 
after the Berlinetta (sp?) that some folks used to call the "vroom broom" 
or "street sweeper"). There are two things that we found strike terror in 
the hearts of the NPCs (and sometimes other players):

         1) The sound of a shotgun action being worked
         2) The realization that somebody might think shooting white 
phosphorus rounds looked like a good idea

The second point didn't occur until after I had unloaded several rounds 
into a building of hostiles.  It seems that using staggered loads of 
different types (HEAP, HE, WP, Mercury Fulminate, KEAP, and Flechettes) had 
never occurred to anybody else in the game and the damage to the hostiles 
was sort of mind boggling for them.  :-)

Of course we could also talk about the 90cm grenade launcher that turns 
people into portable artillery units.........

I love things that go *BOOM*!   ;-)

Best regards,

Charles

At 12:37 PM 4/11/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Hi all
>
>just a quick comment, I have been reading M16 vs everything else topic 
>with interest and big game hunting rifles just came up, and I realised in 
>all the descriptions of peoples campaigns, its all gauss rifles and FGMPs
>
>I just like to say in our games (GT) the weapon of choice were always 
>Gauss - LAG (basically, a LEMG-20 with a shorter barrel, I made it up 6 
>months before Ground Forces came out) as with a wide range of ammo it can 
>do all sorts of things
>
>we have used fletchettes for unarmoured targets, the APFSDSHD will 
>penetrate about 300DR and once we used baton rounds when we had a job as 
>repo men (they didn't mark the ship up too much). the best thing about 
>them was after a firefight they don't leave many holes, in fact even if 
>fighting opponents in battledress on board a ship, afterwards the ship is 
>usually still useable, I say usually once we accidently broke the powerplant
>
>I've always thought that due to the high level of personal armour in 
>traveller, at high TLs weapons would be designed for penetration rather 
>than ROF or explosive fragmentation
>
>oh well back to the discussion of the pros and cons of M16s and big game 
>rifles
>
>(our other game is a pulp horror game and the elephant gun is a staple)
>
>cheers
>
>Cory
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411013014.029c3e10@pop.wizard.net>

At 04:51 PM 4/10/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I think the hint was 180-200 lbs dangerous game (meaning people)

Precisamundo.  The idea is what you are shooting at will and can gladly 
kill you if you give it the chance.  Different from trying to avoid chasing 
your deer while it runs across half the county before bleeding to death.


>My 'plinking' load
>is a 405 gn hard cast bullet in front of 62 gns of 4895.

LOL, that's some pretty serious plinking.  :->


>Plenty of bang for
>just about anything.  I suspect the 500 gn monolithic solids would work well
>on most game too, as well as the occasional car.

Always handy when your daughter gets old enough to date teenaged boys in 
hot rods.

>Note that this is strictly a short range load.  No 600 meter head shots.

Understood.

--Laning





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:32:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:32:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410222548.02170a50@mail.verizon.net>

Oh boy do I remember it, and somewhere I have the rules packed away.

In fact, I was having a discussion this afternoon with a coworker about 
whether anybody would ever have the testicular fortitude to make a series 
of movies based on the Lensman or Family D'Alembert series. The Japanese 
did an animated version of the Lensman series in the 80s, but we're pretty 
well convinced that in this politically correct time that either the 
studios would edit the jingoism right out of the movie or just say no.

Of course, somewhere I still have notes on a Lensman campaign from a few 
years ago.........

Then again, I think a fun game would be set in Harrison's Stainless Steel 
Rat universe (in fact, I've played in that setting several times).

An interesting game might be one that is either based on Asimov's 
Foundation series, Robot series, or just on "The Caves of Steel".

Best regards,

Charles



At 10:36 PM 4/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).
>But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You
>know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or
>perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.
>
>Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I
>need a bit of camp now and then.
>________________
>When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, 
>they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often 
>use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters 
>of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes 
>over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. 
>Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think 
>most would consider truly lamentable.
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F148K7S8MyBuN6QXhY00000aa29@hotmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn writes:

>Excuse me? How much ammo are you thinking of? For dangerous game
>hunting (the original question) 20 rounds is more than enough, and
>there's no real need for a 10 pound battle rifle. A 7.5 pound light
>sporter will do fine (and that's what my father's PH Magestic from the
>early 60's weighed with scope, etc.), and that's less weight than an
>M16A2.

I interpreted the original question as inquiring about stopping power, using 
a theoretical human sized dangerous animal to gain insight into what caliber 
would be appropriate for stopping a dangerous human ("And I'm curious if the 
following question will produce interesting results").  If you were really 
interested in shooting dangerous game, and not the analogy, of course a 
sporter rifle and a less ammo would be appropriate.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:36:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:36:23 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>; from res0i3sf@verizon.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:25:21PM -0700
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au> <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20020410233434.B23469@4dv.net>

I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
inexpensive ammunition.  There are all sorts of nice & nifty rifles,
and I realise that the ammunition's not going to be cheap--but I'm
really not up to paying 50c a round unless I really, really have to.

Thanks much!

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their
pockets for new vocabulary.                     --James D. Nicoll

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
References: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411013453.029c0450@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert Boleyn says:

>My first choice would probably be a .375 H&H. Much though I admire
>Weatherbys they cost too much and are generally over-powered if you're
>using solids - they'd tend to horribly over-penetrate anything but the
>heaviest game. With expansive bullets I'd drop to a .338 Winchester or
>.340 Weatherby unless in Africa, in which case the .375's would be the
>way to go, IMO. .416s and .458/.460s are good vs buffs, elephants, etc.
>but aren't long-range rounds, so you'd need a second rifle for those
>300-500 yard shots on eland, etc.

Those are the same kinds of conclusions I made from studying books about 
this kind of stuff about 20 years ago.

People who are liking lighter rounds are also exceptionally skilled shots 
and I think factoring in their ability at shot placement more than I myself 
would be comfortable with.  Heard way too many stories from excellent shots 
who lost deer that they good pretty good hits on using .30-'06.  I'm not 
saying they won't get their one-shot kills with lighter rounds.  Just that 
I'd rather not rely on that kind of thing if it were me.

Some of the recent posts on the topic to the TML are modifying my opinions, 
but only somewhat.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411014019.028f40d0@pop.wizard.net>

John T Kwon:
<<<snip>>>
>The situations that Traveller characters find themselves in
>are rarely more than a few opponents, and most are armed
>(depending on the GM, of course) with pistols and short range
>weapons.

Very much depends on the referee as well as the players.  I let them get 
into whichever kind of mischief they choose for themselves.  If tick off 
the Mafia or the city police, they have to deal with that and if they tick 
off the banditos in the Sierra Madre while mining gold they have to deal 
with that.  Or maybe they're dropped by the OSS deep into Burma and have to 
hook up with a stone age tribe to conduct guerilla warfare against the 
Japanese.  (I recommend reading a book called 'The Blue Eyed Shan' btw, for 
people interested in this kind of thing.)

<<<more snippage>>>

What is a PH?

My own characters in other Traveller games have often preferred gauss 
rifles, light machineguns, assault rifles, submachineguns, and blade 
weapons, or even bare hands.  As well as grenade launchers, LAGs, shotguns, 
laser carbines or rifles, FGMPs or PGMPs, and an assortment of hand 
grenades.  I try to have the character own and be familiar with all that 
kind of stuff, and then try to have them take the ones that are best for 
the tactical situation and terrain the character is expecting to be 
in.  Pistols and big game rifles have never been big on my list for my 
characters, even though I've tried to make characters who had those are 
their fortes.

In my most recent gun fight in a "Traveller" game, I carried a 
submachinegun, grenades, and great armor as five of us invaded the local 
despot's palace on an impoverished TL 5 to 6 world.  I didn't bother with 
an edged weapon since the character was awesome at unarmed combat and 
improvised weapons.  Left me more weight allowance for ammo.  Our other big 
gun carried a light machinegun.  He didn't make it.  Wasn't wearing enough 
armor, IMHO.  It's a beer and pretzels referee.

That was face to face Traveller gunfights.  Tod Glenn has been putting my 
character through some hoops in his PBEM game, more recently.  He only has 
Rifle-1 for firearms skills, the rest of his combat skills are for 
melee.  He used a battered carbine at 50 meters to kill a very corrupt cop 
who was sitting in a parked car.  It seemed fair at the time.  <EG>  And 
we're nearing the end of a basically dense jungle patrolling combat between 
an enemy equipped to just shy of battle dress (carrying a lot of the 
nastiest weaponry and gizmos Tod has posted on travellercentral.com) and 
the player characters, equipped to a motley standard of high tech combat 
gear.  I used my high-tech bullpup-style assault rifle with special ammo 
(alternating HVAPFSDS long rod penetrator and HE) and got two of them so 
far.  But in about ten minutes, all the PCs are going to get wiped out by 
nerve gas _plus_ EMP weapons conveniently proposed here on the TML.  Guess 
the Evil GM couldn't wait to try out his new toy on some players.  :->

Don't worry kids.  Come back next Sunday matinee for the next exciting 
installment of 'How Will the PCs Escape the Cliffhanger?'.  Your brave 
heroes are bound to come up with something to escape the elaborate death 
trap.  Probably.  LOL.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F97SgeR4UIS42NXHwGr0001bbad@hotmail.com>

Robert A. Uhl:

>I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
>general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
>to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
>inexpensive ammunition.  There are all sorts of nice & nifty rifles,
>and I realise that the ammunition's not going to be cheap--but I'm
>really not up to paying 50c a round unless I really, really have to.

I think you will have a hard time finding a rifle that is adequate for elk 
that is going to cost less than $0.50 per round.  I'd get a 30-06, but 
anything .270 caliber and above would probably be adequate.

As far as rifles, Savages are good and cheap.  Ugly though.  To be honest, 
there is not much difference between the bottom of the line Savage, Ruger, 
Winchester or Remington.  The nice thing about the latter two is that, if 
you ever decide to do so, you can upgrade the rifle easily.  All 4 brands 
will do the job and last several generations, and they all get pretty good 
accuracy out of the box.  Expect to spend at least $3-400 or so, which might 
include a cheap scope.  Check Wal-Mart.  Get a synthetic stock.  These 
rifles are so cheap, that it might be hard to find a used one for less.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020411083544.A5842@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020411160312.A6708@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
> both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
> physics as we know it,

That it does.  :)

I've worked out a set of variations on all the fundamental constants
that works.  However, upon doing the equations it just works out
equivalent to measuring things in grams instead of kilograms. :/

There was no *real* difference at all, including interaction with the
outside world.  Oh well :(



> so it seems that I'm going to have to relent and give up on this
> idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes infeasible, and we're left
> with FTL (which has already been done to death).

Almost all forms of FTL violate physics as we know it, too.  Don't
take my insistence that inertia suppression doesn't work with known
physics and chemistry to mean that I'd choke and barf if I saw it in a
game.  I quite enjoyed the "Lensman" series, after all :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411023119.028f5a00@pop.wizard.net>

John T Kwon:
>Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I
>need a bit of camp now and then.

A few parts of it seemed to have been photocopied straight from Traveller.

It was aptly named.  I had some very good times in the one Space Opera game 
I played in.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:31:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Hagler)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:31:24 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <20020410233434.B23469@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B8DA7B5A.46DE8%khagler@orange-road.com>

on 4/10/2002 10:34 PM, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
> general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
> to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
> inexpensive ammunition.

If you've got lots of money for the rifle, the Steyr Scout in .308 is good.
It's $2800 new, though. I'm saving up for one.  :-)

<http://www.steyrscout.org/>
-- 
                              Ken Hagler

|          ICQ#: 34591293         |   For PGP key send mail with  |
|   http://www.orange-road.com/   |    subject "Send PGP Key".    |
|   And tho' we are not now that strength which in old days       |
|   Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are --Tennyson  |


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018477349.495.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155047.01de3120@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411023756.028f5390@pop.wizard.net>

At 03:22 PM 4/10/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Actually, no, the drug could easily be responsible.  Much of the reason for
>people falling down when shot is that they know they ought to, and drugs can
>dull the pain response and/or make you too stupid to realize you've been shot.
>
>The fact that he stood there are got shot several times by an M60 may suggest
>why the use of combat drugs is discouraged.  People who are heavily 
>drugged are
>not usually known for their good tactics.

I'm not going to agree with you, except for the part about drugs and 
tactics.  It seems to me that the less personal familiarity people have 
with drugs, and the more they hate the class of people who they feel use 
drugs, the more willing they are to ascribe superhuman abilities to drug 
users who are shot.  We're each entitled to our separate opinions.

I'm most inclined to believe that the guy being repeatedly hit with M-60 
machinegun bursts was some kind of weird fluke regardless of drug 
use.  Otherwise, such an incident would be so routine that it would not 
have been noted as unusual in the book.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411024705.01dc26f0@pop.wizard.net>

Charles McKnight:
>In many of the games I've run or played in, the weapon of choice for short 
>range combat is invariably a 10-gauge drum fed automatic shotgun (modeled 
>after the Berlinetta (sp?) that some folks used to call the "vroom broom" 
>or "street sweeper"). There are two things that we found strike terror in 
>the hearts of the NPCs (and sometimes other players):
>
>         1) The sound of a shotgun action being worked
>         2) The realization that somebody might think shooting white 
> phosphorus rounds looked like a good idea
>
>The second point didn't occur until after I had unloaded several rounds 
>into a building of hostiles.  It seems that using staggered loads of 
>different types (HEAP, HE, WP, Mercury Fulminate, KEAP, and Flechettes) 
>had never occurred to anybody else in the game and the damage to the 
>hostiles was sort of mind boggling for them.  :-)
>
>Of course we could also talk about the 90cm grenade launcher that turns 
>people into portable artillery units.........

:::wipes a tear from the corner of one eye:::

"Son, you make me proud."

Warms my cockles, that does.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <20020411045414.13A9B279F9@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410023924.027e4ad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411024937.01dc7010@pop.wizard.net>

Wow, hadn't realized that 'Salon' had already visited the PBEM world.

Thanks for the good URLs.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410222548.02170a50@mail.verizon.net>
References: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411025215.029cb0e0@pop.wizard.net>

Charles McKnight:
>Then again, I think a fun game would be set in Harrison's Stainless Steel 
>Rat universe (in fact, I've played in that setting several times).

I'm for it!!!

Get Spielberg to executive produce it.  He's a lover of pulp SF.  Then 
you'll have money.  But don't let near the script or the director.  He 
pasteurizes everything into pablum.

And don't forget voice overs of Slippery Jim's interior monologue.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
Message-ID: <memo.437377@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410180651.009f12d0@mindspring.com>
When in the British army, I got bawled out for not wearing my stripes on 
combat clothing (they were correctly displayed on other uniforms). I 
pointed out that in the field: -

a. I didn't want the enemy to know what rank I was.
b. My own people knew me already.

I then added some removable stripes, which only went on when there was an 
officer around :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.
Formerly Sergeant, 22nd (Cheshire) Regiment.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 01:01:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 00:01:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <memo.437376@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020411041811.1A229279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
>It also reminds me of Regina UpPort's famous "Stuff on a Stick"
>kiosk...that's where all the left over bits end up.

Don't say that, my character in Mole's PBeM just had his supper there :-(

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 01:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Apr 11 00:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020411024231.00967100@minn.net>

At 12:37 PM 4/11/2002 +1000, Cory wrote:

>I've always thought that due to the high level of personal armour in 
>traveller, at high TLs weapons would be designed for penetration rather 
>than ROF or explosive fragmentation
>
>oh well back to the discussion of the pros and cons of M16s and big game
rifles

Back when I was involved in the patriot movement (I posted the ASCII text
of the first issue of THE RESISTER on usenet) I bought a STG 58 (Austrian
FAL) parts kit and had a gunsmith rebuild it on a semi-auto D.S. Arms
reciever. I also bought 25 magazines, 4000+ rounds of British surplus
ammunition and a ELCAN optical sight for it. 

My MTF transexual landlady asked me if the glowing green triangle in the
ELCAN reticle was for shooting gay martians. When I showed my rifle to the
fellow who edited THE RESISTER he moved the selector switch to what was the
full-auto postion and gave me the look of child expecting a REALLY NEAT
Christmas present.

"NO NO NO N0, Steve," I said, "it doesn't do that, I tried it already."


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 01:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 00:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperial OpSix Force
In-Reply-To: <20020410225606.A23319@4dv.net>
References: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:12:13PM +0000
Message-ID: <3CB4F99B.6983.2E9659D@localhost>

It=92s a hot day as the press core sits on the open benches in front of a 
small stage adorn with several strange looking devices.  They could only 
assume they are weapons since this is a press conference of the Imperial 
Marine training center.  A lone marine petty officer steps forward. 

=93This hour you will be introduced to our newest training technique the 
OpSix force formally called the Starfish Regiment.  This united is 
designed to represent the Hiver federation.   All the troops are not only 
versed in the weapons, tactics and techniques of the Hivers, but also to 
insure the most realistic training they are all experts in the use of the 
Mark II mock Hiver Environmental Suit.=94

At this moment a shirk comes up from the back of the press core as four 
strange creatures appear armed and looking deadly.  Another appears on 
stage and with its many arms [wiggle] [wave wave] [flagellate] [wave 
point flail].


=93Its ok its just members of the OpSix force.  That was just a simple 
demonstration of how realistic the suits are and now Lt. Sherow will take 
over.  A woman seems to unfold herself from the suit.  

=93What I did when I got on stage was give you our Motto.  Experts at 
Retreating=85 That=92s just what we want you to think.  Now I will continu=
e 
explain how this force works.=94

The dog and pony show drags on


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410222548.02170a50@mail.verizon.net>
References: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <v04020a15b8dad9a13fa9@[192.168.1.5]>

>In fact, I was having a discussion this afternoon with a coworker about
>whether anybody would ever have the testicular fortitude to make a series
>of movies based on the Lensman or Family D'Alembert series. The Japanese
>did an animated version of the Lensman series in the 80s, but we're pretty

Have you seen it?  I saw it back in '93, as I remember it was a lot more
like Star Wars rather than the Lensman series.  Still, I enjoyed it, and
wouldn't mind getting a copy of it on DVD.

>well convinced that in this politically correct time that either the
>studios would edit the jingoism right out of the movie or just say no.

I'm scared to think what a mess a studio would make out of it!

			Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|          PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum.         |
|                http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/               |

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F217LltyKF5Q6JVW8s20001d6e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20411.003056.1J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Mr. Erickson,
>
>      Yes, as your other posts illustrated, a planet is a VERY BIG place!  
> Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the 
> conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.
>
> In another bout of hyperbole, I posted, "... the Ziro Sirka would have, 
> could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it glowed."
>
>      "Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
> Millions, hundreds of millions."
>
>      But of course.  Would you care to hazard a guess just what sort of 
> firepower it would have taken for the ZS to remove Terra as a threat?  How 
> many warheads, kinetic strikes, spinal mount hits, and plain old iron bombs 
> would it have taken "de-industrialize" Terra?

Probably more than was practical. Especially given that humans were
pretty well spread out in the solar system as well. 

Exact figures would require knowing a lot more about what was where and
how it was defended. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:18:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:18:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGGCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20411.002719.0T1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> >
>> >A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
>> >bone from a walrus penis.  See
>> >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html
>>
> So when I tell my girlfriend that I've got a "Boner",
> I'm really speaking Eskimo?

Nope. Humans are one of the mammals that *don't* have a penis bone. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:20:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:20:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410025314.02b56df0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20411.003332.4n3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I have too vague an image of how canonical nuclear dampers will precisely 
> behave to really describe all how they will help, and what will be beyond 
> their help.  It probably varies quite a bit from one referee's TU to 
> another's.  I'd guess some referees only have them work if they're focused 
> on ground zero at the time of the explosion, while others let you do 
> whatever kind of prevention and clean up sounds theoretically within the 
> limits of such a technology.

Stopping a bomb from going off requires pretty good focus. Accelerating
decay doesn't and (as I recall) is well within the abilities of the
dampers as described in official source materials.

I tend to consider them *less* useful than the original descriptions,
simply because that decay energy has to go *somewhere*. It won't just
disappear. Thus my comments about heat limiting the speed of cleanup.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:21:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:21:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409223004.02132f28@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <20411.003635.3k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Which reminds me. Some day I need to sit down and try to figure out what 
>>would be required to produce a "burned off" world such as appears in some 
>>of Norton's books.
>
> While I'm not familiar with Norton's "burned off" worlds (I don't tend to 
> read Norton), the easiest way to completely clobber a planet with Traveller 
> technology is to drop a few big rocks on it.  With Traveller maneuver 
> drives, it should be relatively easy to nudge a number of asteroids in the 
> 100,000dton or bigger class into an intercept trajectory with a planet, and 
> that should be all that's needed.

Norton's examples are basicly worlds that got the entire surface
slagged. 

A few didn't quite get it that bad. And most were done with "dirty"
weapons. 

On Terra much of North Ammerica is a lifeless wasteland that is still
too radioactive to enter safely centuries later. Again, lots of
"radioactive glass" surface. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:23:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:23:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <002101c1e027$4452ada0$3cb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <20411.004119.4s9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> You seem to be fairly consistently a couple of days behind on the
> list, BTW.  Are you just behind, or is it something to do with the
> exotic 19th Century computers you use?

I was sick, and I'm still trying to catch up. 

And sorry, but the computers I use aren't *that* old. Well, the abaci,
are, but they aren't used for email.

This box isn't all that old. AMD K6-2/500 cpu, 320 meg of RAMN, etc. It
just so happens that it's running OS/2 and the mail software is running
in a DOS window.

Viruses don't have a chance. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAAEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Robert A. Uhl wrote :
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:54:19AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> >
> > Shakepear didn't have any copyrights on his work -
> > they didn't exist at that time.
>
> That was indeed part of my point...

Of course, Shakespeare was _lucky_ that copyright didn't exist,
or he'd have had his arse sued off by the people he stole his
plays from.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:53:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:53:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEELHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

People are discussing "open source" or free game rules and
claiming it's going to put game designers out of work.

This is basically crap.

FUDGE is sold, and it is completely freely available at the same
time.

GURPS Lite is given away, as were the basic rules for Alternity,
among others.

The D20 system is "open source" and there are many designers
making money off it, (or planning to make money off it) including
Hunter Gordon on this list.

Personally, I think D20 is  a "Bad Thing", not because it won't
make money, but because it will stifle creativity in mechanics.
Designers will face the choice "shall I design my own system,
whichh might fail, or shall I design a game based on D20 which
will probably guarantee me some sales I wouldn't have otherwise."
But that's just my opinion, and because I don't like the idea of
"character levels" in games.

People mentioned "Gates vs Linux".
In the D20 case though, it is like Gates deciding to open source
Windows 2000!

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:55:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:55:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8d974f770c0@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :

> But we are talking about security measure that are
> intrusive enough that the are a hassle to the day
> to day operation of a ship.

Yes.

Just as being searched for screwdrivers and penknives is
currently a hassle in the day to day operation of an airline.

> Some people are going to know about them.

Everyone will be _told_ about them. They won't be secret.

> Unless they are important  enough to make a _significant_
change in costs,
> another company will be able to draw at least some customers
away buy not
> having such intrusive requirements.

The requirements are set by the SPA and the local civilian
government, not the insurance company, as I already said :

> >The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
> >required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
> >may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
> >starport will do it (for important safety and
> >financial reasons,would you want an unwarranted vehicle
> >approaching an extremely expensve space station?), there won't
> >be any real choice except for the captains to take the risk
> >of not doing it and not go to the better starports
>
> The presumption is that every insurance company will have such
> requirements.

No, the presumption is that no insurance company will accept
liability for an illegal ship.

Because of that, if the ship owners wish to be able to recover
the cost of their starship in the event of an accident, they will
attempt to ensure their ship is legal at all times.

> That requires that you show that such requirements
> make a significant difference in insurance costs.

I suspect that any company willing to knowingly insure an illegal
ship, and be expected to pay out, will charge ten times, if not
more, than the normal going rate. And as such an organization is
almost certainly going to be criminal anyway, they may charge the
additional premiums and still not pay out.

> Otherwise insurance companies have no reason to
> push unpopular requirements.
>
> However, if you can show that such requirements are
> needed to keep theft down to a reasonable level, then
> you don't need to invoke insurance companies requiring it.
>
> In the end, invoking insurance companies is not a way
> of justifying  regulations that don't have other basis.

I agree.

However, as already stated,  the insurance companies are not the
justification for the regulations, the starport authority and
civilian govermnment is the justification for the regulations.

Insurance is just the reason the owner of the ship wants to obey
the regulations. After all, the owner may not care that there is
the possibility of a hijack, and may not care how much damage the
hijacked ship does, as long as they know they will be paid out by
the insurance company, all the ship owner has to worry about is
replacing their ship. The insurance company has to worry about
liability for damage to other ships and facilities.

I suspect that in the event of a hijack, the insurance company
will _not_ be your friend, they will be trying _very_ hard to
prove that you did not have adequate safeguards to avoid paying
out the ninety billion in damages to the residents of the suburb
the ship crashed in. If they succeeed, then the liability suit
will go against the owner of the ship.

Have a look at the completely OTT security that is currently
being applied to domestic air travel.
Confiscation of pen-knives and scissors is admittedly stupid, but
this is the sort of stupidity that you will have to deal with in
the SPA and local governments.

Think about the difference in damage potential between a 747 and
a subsidized merchant.
Then think about the greater effect that damage will have on an
orbital starport.

Security on a starship will be required to be tight to prevent
"passengers" from taking control of the starship and flying it
into the starport, or other targets of oppurtunity.

Without proof of the requisite security, you will not be allowed
near the "better" starports or planets, just as any airlines that
are not willing to implement the silly current restrictions would
not be allowed to operate out of major airports.

I agree that on current sea-going ships security is relatively
lax (And a lot of people equate traveller merchants to sea-going
merchants). But changing that will take just a single incident
where a terrorist group takes over a large tanker, turns it into
a floating bomb or biological weapon release system, and sails it
into a heavily populated harbour and sets it off. I believe this
has already been done in fiction, and one has only to look at the
Halifax incident to see the potential for destruction.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:57:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:57:17 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
In-Reply-To: <20020410123043.C21755@4dv.net>
References: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020410123043.C21755@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020411015015.56c0a4db.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> So he went on down to the consul, they all had a good laugh, and the
> letter informing the German registry that Calvert is approved for use
> in America was sent.
> 
> OTOH, I daresay Germany has no-one name Moon Unit or Dweezil, so the
> policy is not entirely incorrect.

In Sweden, the Department of Statistics maintains a webpage where it is
possible to query for the number of people with any name. Very
entertaining.

Calvert : 1 (male)
Sauron : 1 (male)  -  !!!
Legolas : 5 (male)
Gandalf : 15 (male)
Grus : 19 (male)  -  This name means "gravel"

And my favorite:

Skywalker : 9 (male)

The persons who have this name have it as a middle name. They are probably
named "Luke Skywalker Svensson" or something similiar.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:59:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:59:10 2002
Subject: [TML] test
In-Reply-To: <3CB4BE9A.1155267C@premier.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204101430010.1171-100000@rhylanor>
 <3CB4BE9A.1155267C@premier.net>
Message-ID: <20020411015618.314b70fa.jenry023@student.liu.se>

John Groth wrote:
> Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled in terror, and you
> would not have been informed.

Had this been a real emergency, you would all be dead by now.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 04:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeffrey Malone)
Date: Thu Apr 11 03:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Lost Causes
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17951@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <00dc01c1e140$61de4e00$a92554d2@1338700057>

To paraphrase (IIRC) Harry Summers in 'On Strategy', a (possibly apocryphal)
conversation between a US Army officer and a PAVN officer, some years later:

USA - "You know, you never defeated us on the battlefield"

PAVN - "Quite correct.  And also irrelevant."

The Tet Offensive was a great example of the 'CNN Effect' well ahead of
time, of perception having more effect than reality.  The NLF was utterly
devested in 1968, ultimately leading to cadres from the North taking control
of the struggle in the South.  But that was not the perception of the voting
public, and the rest is history...


----- Original Message -----
From: Hughes, Michael <Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 8:19 AM
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Lost Causes


> The Dougster:
> In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat
> in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?
>
> Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public
> opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the
> region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.
>
> Mikey:
> The US were never really going to win that one. As Uncle Ho is fondly
> remembered saying 'I am willing to lose 10 men for each one of yours'.
Hell,
> I think the toll in Vietnam for the conflict was about a million on the
> Communist side. So given loses of 50k for the US that's like 20 to 1.
>
> Besides it's a bit hard to 'save' a country that won't save itself.
>
> My 0.02 of course, so don't roast me slowly over a verbal BBQ.
>
> I'm studying Vietnam now at uni. I particularly enjoyed the battle of Ap
Bac
> (?), which got turned into a major propaganda piece about the South wiping
> the floor with Communist insurgents. When the smoke cleared they found
just
> 3 bodies....
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 05:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 04:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204111145.DVD01524@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert Uhl asks about a GP rifle
<snip>
A Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 for deer. Just right.

Not truly reliable for elk, but it's been done.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 05:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 04:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204111147.DVD01644@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning asks
>what is a PH?

Professional Hunter
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 06:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr 11 05:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Real-world biometrics
Message-ID: <F135SenAbcZbxX9QeCw00005b24@hotmail.com>

Someone recently mentioned a well-established trick in
fiction of defeating a thumbprint scanner by cutting
off an authorized person's thumb.  Real life appears
to have caught up...

"Biometrics Can Be Painful"
current (April 11, 2002) issue at http://www.w2knews.com

Synopsis:
A company placed automated bank teller machines at mining
installations in South Africa, and used thumbprint ID.
Within weeks, they had to take them out - there were
too many incidents of people getting attacked and having
their thumbs cut off.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 06:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 11 05:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RealLife(tm) Battledress, next chapter
References: <20020411004005.5784B27A85@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <204AD90A.F27541C2@earthlink.net>

This is kinda fun...

http://www.aro.army.mil/soldiernano/


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 06:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Thu Apr 11 05:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <3CB4F721.DEF69043@sympatico.ca>; from stosh@sympatico.ca on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:38:25PM -0400
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDHDKAA.tml@downport.com> <3CB4F721.DEF69043@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20020411083438.B9890@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:38:25PM -0400, Michael Stasica wrote:
> 
> A friend job that I fear to visualize:
> 
> Giving enemas to elephants, with a 27 pound suppository in my right hand (
> gloved to the neck) and a hose in my left hand.  A broom and a shovel for the
> resultant mess, nearby.
> 
ISTR an incident where an unfortunate person got caught in and buried
by the generous outflow with fatal results...

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Real-world biometrics
In-Reply-To: <F135SenAbcZbxX9QeCw00005b24@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411085821.02b4ef78@192.168.0.1>

At 08:14 AM 4/11/2002 -0400, Walt Smith wrote:
>Someone recently mentioned a well-established trick in
>fiction of defeating a thumbprint scanner by cutting
>off an authorized person's thumb.  Real life appears
>to have caught up...
>"Biometrics Can Be Painful"
>current (April 11, 2002) issue at http://www.w2knews.com
>Synopsis:
>A company placed automated bank teller machines at mining
>installations in South Africa, and used thumbprint ID.
>Within weeks, they had to take them out - there were
>too many incidents of people getting attacked and having
>their thumbs cut off.

Ah...South Africa...home of the flame thrower anti-carjacking device...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F195GoE1k8LN6FWe7Xl0000b978@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB635B9.12478.8D0AC6@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 0:35, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>      The Imperial China the "Southern Barbarians" began contacting in the 
> 1500's was in one of it's disintergration phases.  The Ming were on the way 
> out, the Manchus were trying to get in, pirates and warlords abounded.  The 
> periphary was unravelling, Taiwan was a pirate kingdom that the Chinese paid 
> the Dutch to tackle for them, Korea either lost to the Japanese or 
> independent, Tibet gone, the far west lost to various horse peoples.  The 
> Ming were straining every nerve just to keep the lid on, and they failed.  
> After them, the Manchu were nothing more than a foreign dynasty simply 
> trying to remain in power.  They restored nothing of China's former power or 
> borders, even losing more territory as their dynasty went on.
>      Does any of that sound like the Ziru Sirka to you?

Yep. The Vilani already had problems when the Terrans turned up. They 
no longer had a monoploy on jump drives and were  suffering from piracy 
from outside their borders by minor races. That's why they thought the 
Terrans were just a bunch of pirates to start with.

>      When they met the Terrans, the Vilani were keeping a ZS boot on the 
> necks of umpteen minor races, races and home worlds that the Vilani were 
> able to keep quiet even as the Terrans racked up victory after victory.  
> There is no mention of these plethora of minor races rising in revolt, all 
> we hear about is their "welcoming their Terran liberators."  How were the 
> Vilani able to keep all those minor races down, how were they able to play 
> power politics with Vargr merc pawns, how were they able to still do all of 
> that, and STILL lose to a single system polity?

Because the Vargr were not that far from Vland, and were an altogether 
higher prioroty. As for the minor races - the Vilani controlled the 
transport and information flow, so the subject races may not have even 
heard of the Terrans until they were right inside their subsector and 
impossible for the Vilani to hide any longer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6380C.25968.9620C5@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 20:36, John T. Kwon wrote:

> If you also consider that Traveller gun combat is at about 
> the same range as a Cape Buffalo encounter, and you're 
> probably going to live for about as many shots (two, maybe 
> three), then I think that whatever makes a good Cape Buffalo 
> weapon might make a good Traveller combat weapon.
> 
> Let's see.  We'll make it .416 Remington, since we can still 
> get Speer tungsten core solids. 

Don't like the .416 Remington (unreasoning dislike - nothing I can pin 
down). I'd take either a .416 Rigby, a .458 Winchester or a .378 
Weatherby - the latter having the advantage of being a fine long-range 
weapon.
 
> The rifle should be a 4-shot controlled-feed pre-64 
> Winchester action (with fixed ejector).  Barrel length should 
> be 22 inches, and we'll go with a muzzle brake.

That's a horridly short barrel for a round like any of the .416s, and 
with a muzzle brake on it you're not going to be making friends of your 
allies, that's for sure.

> The stock 
> should be optimized for firing on your hind legs, and we'll 
> put a Trijicon Reflex sight on top, with express sights just 
> in case that gets broken.

Now this I can agree on, though a x2 - x5 vari-power scope would be a 
nice altenative (gives the option of longer shots).

> Get yourself a pouch that holds 20 rounds, maybe keep 40 
> rounds in your pack.  More than enough for most Traveller 
> adventures.

Yep.

I was thinking of another choice earlier today - the Lee-Enfield SMLE 
or No4. The .303 British is a fine round, and a bit milder than the .30-
06 or 7.92x57mm, and the Mark VII round is more wounding than you might 
think, thanks to careful design - it had an aluminium or peat insert in 
the nose of the bullet, making it 'rear heavy'. The bullet also has an 
exposed lead base (like most ball ammo of the time), which means that 
its rear is quite weak. The combination of these two features results 
in a bullet that tumbles rapidly in flesh (for a full-bore round) and 
flattens at the rear, resulting in something that spins like a sycamore 
seed. We once fired some into a 40 pound block of cheddar and the 
'wound track' was interesting and rather larger than that of .30-06 
ball, though not so large as that of a .30-06 soft nose. Of course this 
isn't a perfect demo, as cheese won't spring back from the temporary 
cavity the way a person's body will, but still.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB638C4.8619.98EF71@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 22:36, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).  
> But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You 
> know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or 
> perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.
> 
> Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I 
> need a bit of camp now and then.

Played it for years, back in the day. A friend of mine maintains that 
it's ruined his ability to enjoy newer SF games - they just aren't 
_real_ SF rpgs without Gene Day ink drawings, many typos and large 
sections of unplayable rules.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet... or even
the moon?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Huxton" <red@archonet.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:04 PM
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters


> Idle speculation from an idle speculator, and it must have been asked
> before...
>
> We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any upper limit
> ("that's no moon...")
>
> I had a sudden vision of a jump-capable planet working its way around the
> galaxy sucking gas giants dry between jumps.
>
> Any gearheads got a spreadsheet that can handle this?
>
> Oh, no cheating of course, you have to do this using LBB Book 2 rules at
TL13
> and bring the cost in at under 100MCr ;-)
>
> - Richard Huxton
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:37:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:37:08 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <20020410233434.B23469@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>; from res0i3sf@verizon.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:25:21PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CB63A21.15419.9E4377@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 23:34, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
> general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
> to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
> inexpensive ammunition.  There are all sorts of nice & nifty rifles,
> and I realise that the ammunition's not going to be cheap--but I'm
> really not up to paying 50c a round unless I really, really have to.
> 
> Thanks much!

My advice would be a .30-06, as it'll work on just about anything you 
have in the US (though I believe that most people consider it a little 
small for brown bear). If you're concerned about recoil something like 
a 7x57mm or 7mm Remington express would be fine, or a .243 winchester, 
6mm Remington or .25-06 for that matter. Now, that was lots of help, 
wasn't it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:39:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:39:08 2002
Subject: [TML] A 'Billion' Earth's.......
Message-ID: <20020411133823.87249.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com>

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_medical/story.jsp?story=283413

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <F97SgeR4UIS42NXHwGr0001bbad@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 6:00, Sam D wrote:

> As far as rifles, Savages are good and cheap.  Ugly though.  To be
> honest, there is not much difference between the bottom of the line
> Savage, Ruger, Winchester or Remington.  The nice thing about the
> latter two is that, if you ever decide to do so, you can upgrade the
> rifle easily.  All 4 brands will do the job and last several
> generations, and they all get pretty good accuracy out of the box. 
> Expect to spend at least $3-400 or so, which might include a cheap
> scope.  Check Wal-Mart.  Get a synthetic stock.  These rifles are so
> cheap, that it might be hard to find a used one for less. 

Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle 
you like the look of. As Jim Charmichel once said "You're a very lucky 
man if you get to spend more time firing your rifle than looking at 
it." That being the case there's no point getting a rifle you can't 
stand the sight of.

Another thing - unless you intend on doing a lot of long range shooting 
don't be too concerned about extreme accuracy - despite what many of us 
have been ranting on about getting 2" at 100 yards is plenty good 
enough for most (non-varmint) hunting - that's still a deer's lower 
chest at 300 yards, easy.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:43:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:43:35 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411013453.029c0450@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB63B80.28309.A39F58@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 1:39, laning wrote:

> People who are liking lighter rounds are also exceptionally skilled shots 
> and I think factoring in their ability at shot placement more than I myself 
> would be comfortable with.  Heard way too many stories from excellent shots 
> who lost deer that they good pretty good hits on using .30-'06.  I'm not 
> saying they won't get their one-shot kills with lighter rounds.  Just that 
> I'd rather not rely on that kind of thing if it were me.
> 
> Some of the recent posts on the topic to the TML are modifying my opinions, 
> but only somewhat.

One thing that struck me - in all this 5.56 vs 7.62 nobody has 
suggested that that P90 thingie's round (I forget it's designation) 
would be a desirable alternative.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:48:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:48:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
In-Reply-To: <memo.437377@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CB63CCB.4807.A8A983@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 7:58, Megan Robertson wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410180651.009f12d0@mindspring.com>
> When in the British army, I got bawled out for not wearing my stripes on 
> combat clothing (they were correctly displayed on other uniforms). I 
> pointed out that in the field: -
> 
> a. I didn't want the enemy to know what rank I was.
> b. My own people knew me already.
> 
> I then added some removable stripes, which only went on when there was an 
> officer around :-)

We didn't (and don't) wear rank in the field. In fact we went to having 
NCO rank on removeable brassards so that you didn't have to have so 
many different shirts, and so that it could be taken off and put on 
again depending on circumstances more readily. Wearing rank in the 
field is about as bright as saluting in the field. In fact it was SOP 
for field dress to have no insignia on it at all now that I think about 
it.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <200204111145.DVD01524@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB63DAD.23897.AC1EE3@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 7:45, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Robert Uhl asks about a GP rifle
> <snip>
> A Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 for deer. Just right.
> 
> Not truly reliable for elk, but it's been done.

Just to keep things going - I'm not a fan big fan of the .30-30 (though 
I nearly bought one ten years ago - got an SKS instead), as IMO it's 
underpowered for larger deer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
 <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20020411155818.5b11fc3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Christopher Pratt wrote:
> What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet... or
even
> the moon?

Calculations for Luna follow:

Using a diameter of 3.476 E+6 meters:

Volume: 1.759 E+20 cubic meters

Displacement: 1.257 E+19 displacement tons

Surface area: 3.796 E+13 square meters

FF&S2 structural factor: 1.037 E+25

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204111402.DVH05321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>On 11 Apr 2002 at 1:39, laning wrote:
>Heard way too many stories from excellent shots 
> who lost deer that they good pretty good hits on using .30-
>'06.

A good shot is not necessarily a good hunter.  Some misguided 
souls believe that a bullet is a magical item that will make 
up for a rump shot, or a hit low in the belly.

There are, indeed, rounds that will enter the back end of a 
moose and come out the front, disrupting everything on the 
way through.  But it's better to pick where you're going to 
hit.  And consider what effect that's going to have.  This 
often means passing up a shot, or waiting for the animal to 
change aspect.

I'm convinced that the concepts brought out in Fackler's work 
apply to all animals.  You need a hit on the major nervous 
systems (brain or high in the spinal cord), or you need a hit 
that will get the animal to perish from hemorrhagic shock.  I 
have found that it's best to try to break bone in deer, 
because they can still run while bleeding to death.  Since 
I'm not doing headshots on deer, I try to break the shoulder 
in particular.  I can't see how a .30-06 would fail to break 
the shoulder if loaded with a proper weight bullet (150 
grains or higher, 180 grains being typical).  

ObTrav: In my revision (or supplanting) of the various 
Traveller gun combat systems, I have a penetration 
threshold/degredation for armor.  Even if a round penetrates 
armor, there are limits then on how badly you can be hurt.  
Of course, if the weapon has a really high penetration value, 
then this effect can be overcome, in much the same way that a 
really powerful hunting caliber can make up for shooting elk 
or moose from behind.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <F117uMJ4ySUfjhcgrqo00002681@hotmail.com>

Robert A. Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

You simply need a higher quality worst enemy to give it to.
:-)

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
Walsm Penor, or Terith Smipel, depending on which
iteration of the Lucasian name generator we're using.
I kind of like Terith Penor.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:42:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:42:07 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F107XkF81yvoXFMxmyh000181e3@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>I'm convinced that the concepts brought out in Fackler's work
>apply to all animals.

I think this is a very good point.  Whether you are a hunter, acting in self 
defense, a cop or a soldier, your objective should be the same.  Despite 
occassional talk that hunters are content to let a wounded deer slip away or 
are very concerned about damaging too much meat, my experience is just the 
opposite.  Most of the hunters I know, if an animal does not drop like a 
sack of bricks, immediately start thinking about practicing more or getting 
a more powerful rifle.  In fact, hunters and cops seem to take "stopping 
power" much more seriously than the military.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F99548IlvMTkL01NspD000142b4@hotmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn said:

>Just to keep things going - I'm not a fan big fan of the .30-30 (though
>I nearly bought one ten years ago - got an SKS instead), as IMO it's
>underpowered for larger deer.

Although I have learned that one must tread carefully when critisizing the 
30/30, I tend to agree.  My problem is not so much with its stopping power 
as with its poor ballistics.  The 30/30's point blank range is only like 200 
yards, while you will get 300 or more with a more modern cartridge.  The 
accuracy is pretty bad too, and difficult to remedy, but adequate for short 
range.  It is a fine looking weapon, but unless longer shots are out of the 
question I would get a bolt action.

You are better off getting a cheap rifle and a more expensive scope.  Unless 
you are a very skilled rifleman, a decent scope (either 4x, 2-7 or 3-9) is a 
great asset.  Nice binocs are also important.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411075617.009f3d90@mindspring.com>

At 10:36 PM 4/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).

Actually, when I get the time and energy to run games, they tend to be 
deadly serious.


>Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I
>need a bit of camp now and then.

I loved that game!  I think the authors got paid by the subcase in the rules.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:12:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Kim)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:12:09 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB63B80.28309.A39F58@localhost>
References: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
 <3CB63B80.28309.A39F58@localhost>
Message-ID: <p05101502b8db5700ec4e@[10.0.1.10]>

At 1:42 AM +1200 4/12/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

>One thing that struck me - in all this 5.56 vs 7.62 nobody has
>suggested that that P90 thingie's round (I forget it's designation)
>would be a desirable alternative.

	5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar 
helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target 
(titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle 
velocity of 715m/s.

	http://www.remtek.com/arms/fn/p90/index.htm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:26:10 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204111525.DVL00842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
<snip about the .30-30, buying a weapon, scope, etc>

Most hunters I know (unless they are out west where the 
terrain permits it) don't shoot past 100 yards.  Yes, the .30-
30 has a range limit (look at the energy drop off for 5.56 
while you're at it), but 100 yards is just fine.  I like to 
get close.  I can hit paper way out there, but animals move 
in unpredictable ways, and I'm wanting to hit shoulder.

Keep in mind that many bolt-action/cartridge combinations are 
capable of working far beyond the shooter's ability.  The 
shooter will probably never explore that limit.  Many hunters 
I have met are not capable of shooting up to what they carry, 
not to mention even a lowly .30-30.

Many bolt-action stocks are not natural pointers - it always 
seems uncomfortable in the standing, kneeling, or sitting 
position.  Sometimes I think that the designer figured that 
everyone wants a flat beavertail fore-end for shooting from 
the bench.  Screw that.  I hate my Sendero precisely because 
it doesn't "point".

The typical lever-action Marlin or Winchester will point like 
there's no tomorrow - a good factor for a beginning (or even 
experienced) shooter who is shooting in the field.  Tod may 
laugh and figure I'm like that guy who brought us the M-14 
stock.

At 100 yards, you can get excellent results without a scope.  
If you have a Marlin 336, you can get a rear fold-down peep 
sight for about 25 dollars.  Sight this in, and go practice 
shooting on your hind legs at 50 to 100 yards.  If you can 
find a little valley, you can practice shooting downhill, 
uphill, etc.  Carry a pack with some paper plates and 
thumbtacks.  Practice standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone 
to see which one you're most comfortable with, and which one 
you find quick.  At home, you can practice getting into 
positions using your empty rifle.  Many people *never* 
practice this.  Learning what your body likes and dislikes 
about positions, and learning what makes a solid position 
only comes from this practice.

A good sling is also essential.  Many like the Ching Sling, 
but I am still fond of the leather military two-piece.  Stay 
slung up with this, and you can shoot standing to 100 yards 
with great accuracy.

A Win 94 or Marlin 336 may be cheap, may not be tackdrivers, 
but with little extra equipment, they can put a softpoint 
onto a paper plate at 100 yards very quickly.

If you're interested in reloading your cartridges, you can 
get a fairly inexpensive Lee 2001 (single station frame 
press).  I still have the one I got in 1984, and although 
I've gotten better dies and tools, I find it just as good as 
my Redding or RCBS.  This will lower the cost of your shots, 
and will allow you to spend more time with your hobby.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:32:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:32:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F70SDx1kLwxTQTYkWSz00001108@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "Yep. The Vilani already had problems when the Terrans turned up. They 
no longer had a monoploy on jump drives and were  suffering from piracy from 
outside their borders by minor races. That's why they thought the Terrans 
were just a bunch of pirates to start with."


Mr. Boleyn,

     I thought the "Outies" were all recruited, armed, and paid for by 
factions in the Ziru Sirka.  The Vargr were the exception in all of this 
because most of them hadn't rounded Windhorn yet and they don't have the 
staying power necessary for conquest (as we all detailed in the problems 
with the DGP's Rebellion).  Sounds as if I'm going to have to sit down and 
think about this much, much, MUCH more.
     The local ZS reps may have thought the Terrans were pirates up to a 
point, but only fools or traitors would have thought so after the 2nd IW and 
the Vilani visit to the Sol system.

     "Because the Vargr were not that far from Vland, and were an altogether 
higher priority."

     In the coreward sections of the ZS, sure, but in the early days the ZS 
Rim should have been able to handle Sol on their own.  IIRC, the ZS core 
fleet was dispatched to deal with the Terrans late in the IW period, but the 
Confederation already had jump3 technology and mousetrapped the ZS fleet.

     "As for the minor races - the Vilani controlled the transport and 
information flow, so the subject races may not have even heard of the 
Terrans until they were right inside their subsector and impossible for the 
Vilani to hide any longer."

     Yeah, I've got to think this over even more.  To my mind, minor race 
rebellions aided and abetted by Terran infiltrators should be a big part of 
the Interstellar Wars.  There would have been uprisings and sabotage a 
sector or so "behind" the fighting front and the minor race allies providing 
the lower-TL cannon fodder for the Alliance's offensives.
     Thanks for the ideas to chew over.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 10:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 09:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
Message-ID: <4b.1b7f2094.29e70e82@aol.com>

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From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet 
cover.  In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.

   And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the first 
place? The Lt. maybe? lol!

  -Ken Murphy-



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;
<BR>
<BR>I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet 
<BR>cover. &nbsp;In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the first place? The Lt. maybe? lol!
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 11:46:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Thu Apr 11 10:46:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020411160312.A6708@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 11, 2002 04:03:12 PM
Message-ID: <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
> > both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
> > physics as we know it,
> 
> That it does.  :)
> 
> I've worked out a set of variations on all the fundamental constants
> that works.  However, upon doing the equations it just works out
> equivalent to measuring things in grams instead of kilograms. :/
> 
> There was no *real* difference at all, including interaction with the
> outside world.  Oh well :(

Really? Hmm... this makes me think about that last example you
posed:

> OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
> the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
> a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
> strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
> hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
> when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
> decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
> just one simple example.
> 
> Hence inertial suppression requires more than just changing the
> strength of forces.  If you want the atoms to behave the same way, you
> need to alter fundamental constants as well.
 
Why does h influence the size of the atom?

Also, how do we know that h is a fundamental constant and not
dependant on the factors we might be changing (i.e. fundamental
forces) with the intertial suppression scheme?

That said:
I presume m_e is mass of electron and q_e is charge of the electron.
pi is 'pi', and h is plank's.  I'm not sure what eps_0... something
about the electrostatic attraction?

Are you saying that by reducing the mass, the orbitals of the electrons
are going to be larger?

I'm not completely sure how plank's constant enters into this.

If you say you are reducing the effect of an electronic charge by the
same percentage that you are reducing the mass, all should be good,
even if that means plank's constant has changed, which, I admit, I
was hoping to avoid... but when you mentioned that you created a
set of mechanics which worked perfectly well w/ all the constants
changing... hmm.

I'm thinking that perhaps these constants come out of evaluating
quantities such as the size of an atom.... in other words, perhaps
ZPF taming (inertial suppression & fundamental force suppression)
would end up modifying these so-called constants. But I don't know
enough about plank's to really make that assessment. Basically, what
I'm driving at here, is if you dropped the values of the fundamental
forces, would planck's constant also change as a result of that? If
so, then we've got a bit of a squirrely situation which might just
work mathematically, but which would make your average physics
doctorate have a cow.

On this assumption that this doesn't work, however:
> > so it seems that I'm going to have to relent and give up on this
> > idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes infeasible, and we're left
> > with FTL (which has already been done to death).
> 
> Almost all forms of FTL violate physics as we know it, too.  Don't
> take my insistence that inertia suppression doesn't work with known
> physics and chemistry to mean that I'd choke and barf if I saw it in a
> game.  I quite enjoyed the "Lensman" series, after all :)

Well, I'm sorta torn between this idea and Alcubierre's FTL (space
warping) idea, but we've discussed that one a few months ago, and
if I remember correctly, you made the contention that it leads to
wormholes and time travel, which we really don't want to deal with.
That's (a small) part of the reason I was hoping to use this inertial
suppression idea instead, but if it can't be explained in a way that
a physics major would say... "hmm... interesting... and I can't really
disprove it either... nor does it lead to ridiculous & exploitable
technologies" then maybe it shouldn't be used. I'm shooting for
something with a hard-SF feel. If we wanted soft-SF, we'd use
hyperspace and quasispace from starcon2.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:04:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:04:42 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F99EjKuZA11Fr9YawOu000146f1@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon says:

>Most hunters I know (unless they are out west where the
>terrain permits it) don't shoot past 100 yards.

I live in the West, and the 30/30 is virtually extinct as a sporting arm 
here.  Under 100 yard shot are very uncommon, and most guys are unsatisfied 
with their 300 yard rifles.   It seems like everybody is buying one of the 
new 300 Magnums, in the hope of going farther.

We tend to forget that the 30/30 in many places is all that is needded.

>Keep in mind that many bolt-action/cartridge combinations are
>capable of working far beyond the shooter's ability.  The
>shooter will probably never explore that limit.  Many hunters
>I have met are not capable of shooting up to what they carry,
>not to mention even a lowly .30-30.

Unfortunately, that is very true.  A 300 Mag does not make a guy a good 
shot; in fact, the opposite is usually the case.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:08:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:08:23 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F56z8kI063RA5C2duii00023931@hotmail.com>

Justin Kim said:

>	5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar
>helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target
>(titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle
>velocity of 715m/s.

Is that a FN pistol round?  Are they talking about using it in anything 
other than a pistol?

There was a lot of heartache going from .45 to 9m; can you imagine the howls 
if they went to a .22 pistol?

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:12:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <f8.19b3e031.29e72b62@aol.com>

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   Penis bones aside, the Space Axe(tm) stuff has been pretty interesting. 
Its got me wondering as to its actual performance characteristics.
   Lets take a look at axes:
   In MT, the Handaxe has Pen 6, Blocks 1, and does 3 Damage, while our 
friend the Battleaxe has Pen 8, Blocks 1, and also delivers 3 Damage.
   Now the Broadsword, for example, has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is less 
than 10, and I'm thinking our Space Axe(tm) should have a similar modifier of 
some sort; clearly seperating the thing's use by those in BD (or grotesquely 
jacked up with boinics and the like), and the relatively weak Everyone Else.
   I'm thinking the Space Axe has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is currently 
less than 20; making it act as a "normal" Battleaxe when weilded by 
non-BDers. This would mean our Ronco Space Axe(tm) would have Pen 16 when 
_properly_ used with BD and the like.
   Would this thing have a pick at the opposite end like a fireman's axe, or 
be double headed? I'm more for the pick end, myself. 
   One thing I liked from an old Challenge or Digest article on Low tech 
weapons, gave a reduction to the protection provided by "plate" (and, by my 
"logical" extension, Combat Armor and Battle Dress) against different 
weapons. Mostly the weapons sited were blunt ones; blades (and axes, IIRC) 
not receiving any armor mods.   
   Anyhow, one weapon, the Pick, reduced "Plate's" protection by -4 right 
off. That might be a handy little modifier to use when weilding the axe 
pick-end first :)
   I liked the idea of a rocket-assist on the downstroke as well, but am 
unable to figure any mods for _that_---maybe it gives the thing 4 Damage 
instead of 3? ;P
   Darn! Now I'm starting to wonder about all those creepy-looking chainsaw 
blades and the like I see on those Warhammer figures...
  -Ken Murphy-

 "When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer 
for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out 
of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God 
Almighty have mercy on you!" 

Legion of the Damned
Sven Hassel

   
   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Penis bones aside, the Space Axe(tm) stuff has been pretty interesting. Its got me wondering as to its actual performance characteristics.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Lets take a look at axes:
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;In MT, the Handaxe has Pen 6, Blocks 1, and does 3 Damage, while our friend the Battleaxe has Pen 8, Blocks 1, and also delivers 3 Damage.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Now the Broadsword, for example, has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is less than 10, and I'm thinking our Space Axe(tm) should have a similar modifier of some sort; clearly seperating the thing's use by those in BD (or grotesquely jacked up with boinics and the like), and the relatively weak Everyone Else.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I'm thinking the Space Axe has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is currently less than 20; making it act as a "normal" Battleaxe when weilded by non-BDers. This would mean our Ronco Space Axe(tm) would have Pen 16 when _properly_ used with BD and the like.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Would this thing have a pick at the opposite end like a fireman's axe, or be double headed? I'm more for the pick end, myself. 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;One thing I liked from an old Challenge or Digest article on Low tech weapons, gave a reduction to the protection provided by "plate" (and, by my "logical" extension, Combat Armor and Battle Dress) against different weapons. Mostly the weapons sited were blunt ones; blades (and axes, IIRC) not receiving any armor mods. &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Anyhow, one weapon, the Pick, reduced "Plate's" protection by -4 right off. That might be a handy little modifier to use when weilding the axe pick-end first :)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I liked the idea of a rocket-assist on the downstroke as well, but am unable to figure any mods for _that_---maybe it gives the thing 4 Damage instead of 3? ;P
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Darn! Now I'm starting to wonder about all those creepy-looking chainsaw blades and the like I see on those Warhammer figures...
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR>
<BR><P ALIGN=CENTER> "When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God Almighty have mercy on you!" 
<BR><P ALIGN=LEFT>
<BR>Legion of the Damned
<BR>Sven Hassel
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</P></P></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:14:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:14:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Adios Pirates!
Message-ID: <20020411181056.4612.qmail@earthlink.net>

And you thought Traveller pirates had it rough.

-- quote --

ABCNews.com

April 10 &#8212; They may not have patches over their eyes, parrots on their shoulders, and bottles of rum in their hands, but modern-day pirates are preying on the weak and the unwary.

From Borneo to Baja California, pirate attacks &#8212; up 400 percent in the last decade &#8212; are bolder and bloodier than ever. Like their legendary predecessors, they pose a serious threat to tankers, freighters and sailors across the world. And, according to some experts, many more attacks go unreported, especially in tourist spots. "The crimes are becoming more and more audacious," says Kim Petersen, a security expert who tracks pirates. "They're after whatever they can get."

Though no cruise ships have been attacked recently, the cruise lines are now so worried about piracy and hijacking that they've hired Gurkhas, Nepalese soldiers skilled with knives and swords, to protect their ships and passengers...

-- end quote --

The rest of the story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Downtown/2020/Downtown_020410_pirates_feature.html

-- 


David Smart



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:17:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:17:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Adios Pirates!
Message-ID: <20020411181134.84657.qmail@earthlink.net>

And you thought Traveller pirates had it rough.

-- quote --

ABCNews.com

April 10 &#8212; They may not have patches over their eyes, parrots on their shoulders, and bottles of rum in their hands, but modern-day pirates are preying on the weak and the unwary.

From Borneo to Baja California, pirate attacks &#8212; up 400 percent in the last decade &#8212; are bolder and bloodier than ever. Like their legendary predecessors, they pose a serious threat to tankers, freighters and sailors across the world. And, according to some experts, many more attacks go unreported, especially in tourist spots. "The crimes are becoming more and more audacious," says Kim Petersen, a security expert who tracks pirates. "They're after whatever they can get."

Though no cruise ships have been attacked recently, the cruise lines are now so worried about piracy and hijacking that they've hired Gurkhas, Nepalese soldiers skilled with knives and swords, to protect their ships and passengers...

-- end quote --

The rest of the story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Downtown/2020/Downtown_020410_pirates_feature.html

-- 


David Smart



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:19:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:19:33 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F56z8kI063RA5C2duii00023931@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 11:05 AM, Sam D at samdx@hotmail.com wrote:

> Justin Kim said:
> 
>> 5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar
>> helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target
>> (titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle
>> velocity of 715m/s.
> 
> Is that a FN pistol round?  Are they talking about using it in anything
> other than a pistol?

It's also the round for the FN P90.

It would be interesting to compare it's lethality to the 9mm ball round that
it would replace.  Energy is only a little more than the 9mm but the recoil
should be nothing.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:56:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Kim)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:56:25 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <p05101503b8db8ae2c7f1@[10.0.1.10]>

At 11:17 AM -0700 4/11/02, Tod Glenn wrote:

>It's also the round for the FN P90.
>
>It would be interesting to compare it's lethality to the 9mm ball round that
>it would replace.  Energy is only a little more than the 9mm but the recoil
>should be nothing.

	It's supposed to leave large nasty wound cavities in the 
target.  The website I referenced in my last post used to have a 
picture of the track the round left in a block of ballistic gelatin. 
I'm a complete novice, but it looked unpleasant to me :)

	The 5.7x28mm round was designed to replace the 9mm because of 
the 9mm's poor armor penetrating capabilities.

Justin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:09:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:09:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409141814.027d2810@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20411.112148.1F4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>>> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where 
>>> you were born.

Leoer McSan

I *don't* think so...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:10:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:10:59 2002
Subject: [TML] RealLife(tm) Battledress, next chapter
In-Reply-To: <204AD90A.F27541C2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20411.112029.5P7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Gee, you sent this on March 3, 1987. Slow X-boat?

In mail you write:

> This is kinda fun...
>
> http://www.aro.army.mil/soldiernano/
>
>
> David

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:12:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:12:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018393991.5137.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20411.112329.6T1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>> Keep in mind that while the *energy* of the pulse might only be a few
>> kilojoules the *power* level will be in the megawatt to gigawatt range.
>> Pulses of 1 millisecond or *shorter* will be wanted, both to avoid
>> problems with target movement, but also because the shorter duration
>> tends to increase the "shock" effect due to increased rapidity of
>> energy deposition.
>
> Think microsecond.  You want to create a supersonic shock effect.

That pushes the 1 kJ pulse to *gigawatt* power levels in the rifle. 
Even if it's only for a microsecond, a gigawatt is a lot of power.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:14:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:14:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D99A5C.382DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20411.120223.5O8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/9/02 11:41 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> 
>>> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).
>>> A 65 gram projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.
>> 
>> 65 grams is about 2.3 *ounces*. Ouch.
>> 
>> 4800 fps = ~1460 m/s.
>> 
>> Yeek! That's almost 70 kiloJoules muzzle energy!
>> 
>> Yeah, that'd make folks go splat.
>
> I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.
>
> 69,562 Joules of energy
> 1,130 joules of free recoil
>
> 25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)

Or the equivalent of 16.6 grams of TNT.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:19:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:19:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204111918.DVS00303@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

shadow@krypton.rain.com says
>
>That pushes the 1 kJ pulse to *gigawatt* power levels in the 
>rifle. Even if it's only for a microsecond, a gigawatt is a 
lot of power.
>
You should realize then the power of the current smokeless 
powder cartridges.  We're raising 5 to 8 kJ (depending on 
caliber) in seven-tenths of a millisecond.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:21:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:21:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F1848kFEs6x7Oq6q4sM0001f07c@hotmail.com>

From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>

     "Riiiiiight.  And the United States singlehandedly beat Hitler and
liberated Europe.  Just ask any contemporary 'Merkun.  (Okay, maybe the 
Limeys helped us out some, but not those dirty Reds, no sir.  And definitely 
not the French - all they know how to do is surrender.  What?  The Chinese?  
Were they *in* WW2?)"


Mr. St.Clair,

     Exactly my point, sir!  The Yanks no more singlehandedly beat Adolph 
than the Terran Confederation singlehandedly beat the Ziru Sirka.
     In the center, the Vilani were engaged in realpolitik factional games 
amongst themselves, complete with "outie" mercs and personal armies.  Along 
the coreward frontier, the Vargr were sniffing about, some recruited and 
used for internal ZS power politics and others still feral and rading 
willy-nilly.  And, scattered throughout the empire, were dozens of restless 
minor races, chafing at the Vilani collar around their collective necks and 
waiting for the slightest provocation to rebel.
     The Terrans had help, and lots of it.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:38:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:38:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204111937.DVT02415@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
>
>     "Riiiiiight.  And the United States singlehandedly beat 
>Hitler and liberated Europe. 

UK, very helpful
USSR, extremely helpful
Chinese, yes very
in fact, it was "world war" for a reason.  It took half the 
world to defeat the Axis.

It could also be argued that without the United States, the 
Germans would have won the war.  So no one could do the whole 
job - it had to be done together.

The French -- for the ones that actually helped, were only a 
distraction to keep Germans occupied elsewhere.  Many French 
were wholehearted collaborators.  They don't want to mention 
this -- in fact, "everyone" was in the Maquis.  They gladly 
handed over 1 million Jews, Socialists, homosexuals, and 
other "undesireables" over to the Germans.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:56:08 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200
References: <F97SgeR4UIS42NXHwGr0001bbad@hotmail.com> <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020411135544.A25603@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle 
> you like the look of.

Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
_ugly_:-(

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Mark Twain famously noted that those who are interested in the law or
sausage should never watch either made.  In the years since he made the
remark, there has been considerable reform in sausage making.
                                          --Dennis E. Powell

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:58:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:58:12 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <200204111525.DVL00842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:25:35AM -0400
References: <200204111525.DVL00842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020411135704.B25603@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:25:35AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> A good sling is also essential.  Many like the Ching Sling, 
> but I am still fond of the leather military two-piece.  Stay 
> slung up with this, and you can shoot standing to 100 yards 
> with great accuracy.

I've never actually figured out how to use a sling...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Verbogeny is one of the pleasurettes of a creatific thinkerizer.
                                               --Peter da Silva

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
>food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
>parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
>they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
>                --Socrates, c.  5th century BC

"  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
   abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
   man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
   end of the world is fast approaching."
                          - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:11:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:11:12 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204112010.g3BKAVh12588@mailbag.com>

"Sam D" 
> John T. Kwon says:
> 
> >Most hunters I know (unless they are out west where the
> >terrain permits it) don't shoot past 100 yards.
> 
> I live in the West, and the 30/30 is virtually extinct as a sporting arm 
> here.  Under 100 yard shot are very uncommon, and most guys are unsatisfied 
> with their 300 yard rifles.   It seems like everybody is buying one of the 
> new 300 Magnums, in the hope of going farther.



By the same token, I live in Wisconsin. 100 yards? Try 100 feet real often. 

All I need for any hunting I do is my old Ithica 12 Gauge pump: Slugs for deer 
and (steel) shot for birds. I also have a flintlock in .50", but that's for fun 
not for hunting. I may someday get a .308 for a hunting rifle, but honestly 
there's nothing I want to hunt that I would need anything more than that 12.

Plus, IMHO, it's the best home defense weapon available. 

William




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204112013.DVT07701@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>I've never actually figured out how to use a sling...

Get a book on three-position shooting.  There will be a 
section on using the sling.  Make sure that you buy 
a "proper" two-piece leather sling (it will set you back more 
than the cheap nylon straps that you see on the shelf).

Once you "sling up" properly, you will be surprised at the 
level of stability you can achieve.  As long as its not too 
tight, you can walk around slung up like this.  

ObTrav:  This, and the Ching Sling, are the only "sling" 
types that I will give a +DM for accuracy.  Those 
other "things" are just fancy padded carrying straps.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:46:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:46:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>; from shadow@krypton.rain.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:15:43PM -0800
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net> <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020411144523.A25786@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:15:43PM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> "  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
>    abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
>    man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
>    end of the world is fast approaching."
>                           - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC

.sig slurped...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
'Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US
 companies like Microsoft.'                         --some AOLer
'To this end we dedicate ourselves...'                     --Don

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:47:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:47:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
References: <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CB5F5F1.3050200@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
> 
> 
>>Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
>>food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
>>parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
>>they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
>>               --Socrates, c.  5th century BC
> 
> 
> "  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
>    abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
>    man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
>    end of the world is fast approaching."
>                           - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC
> 

Some of the pictures in the caves in Lascaux express the same things, 
I'll bet.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 15:25:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 14:25:08 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
parts of the debate to TML chat?

Or else I'll begin posting socialist and communist propaganda...

(not a serious threat, but about as relevant)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 15:29:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 11 14:29:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F247Acvgn29MhIydI8o0001bb2c@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "The French -- for the ones that actually helped, were only a
distraction to keep Germans occupied elsewhere.  Many French were 
wholehearted collaborators.  They don't want to mention this -- in fact, 
"everyone" was in the Maquis.  They gladly handed over 1 million Jews, 
Socialists, homosexuals, and other "undesireables" over to the Germans."


Mr. Kwon,

     The French wheat and meat fed the Nazi war machine.  French hands and 
concrete built the Atlantic Wall and the submarine pens.  French rails 
shipped men and materials without delay or hindrance.
     All of Holland worked for their resistance, the Germans had a devil of 
time finding collaborators there.  The Danes, from the King on down, wore 
the yellow Star of David and helped their Jews escape to Sweden.  Yugoslavia 
was a hardship post with constant fighting.  The Czechs killed the Nazi 
gauleiters assigned there.  Norway meant you had to live in armed camps and 
the Eastern Front was litle more than a death sentence, but France...  
France was where you got posted if you were a good little Nazi!

Q:  Why do the French plant trees along the side of the road?
A:  So the Germans can march in the shade.

ObTrav - So, from the Vilani point of view, who were the "French" to the 
Terran's "Nazis" during the Interstellar Wars?  The Vegans?  Some other 
human minor race?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 15:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 14:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
Message-ID: <200204112147.DVX03585@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

There's the 100d limit.  Given.

Is there not some safety standoff distance from one jump 
drive to another?  And what would that distance be?  Could 
you make someone misjump (along with yourself)?

I've read in the archive about "grav" generators to bump 
people out of hyperspace, and jump projectors to throw people 
into the middle of nowhere.

But on a simpler level, I feel that one jump field powering 
through a jump would interfere with another, at least at the 
point of departure.  Thoughts?
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:20:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:20:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020411160312.A6708@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020412081911.B9083@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> Why does h influence the size of the atom?

The size of the atom depends upon the shape of the wavefunction of the
electrons in their ground state.  Roughly speaking, the probability of
finding an electron at a given distance from the atom starts to drop
off sharply at a distance determined by the relations of quantum
mechanics.  Those relation involve h.


> Also, how do we know that h is a fundamental constant and not
> dependant on the factors we might be changing (i.e. fundamental
> forces) with the intertial suppression scheme?

We don't.  The only problem is that if you change h (and everything
associated with it) to fit the requirement that people remain alive,
you get the result that nothing changes at all, including how much
acceleration the ship can take or how much power it takes to
accelerate it.


> I presume m_e is mass of electron and q_e is charge of the electron.
> pi is 'pi', and h is plank's.  I'm not sure what eps_0... something
> about the electrostatic attraction?

Yes; the electrostatic attractive force between two charges is
proportional to 1/(4 pi eps_0).  It is usually written as a greek
epsilon symbol with a subscript 0, but that's not possible in ASCII.


> Are you saying that by reducing the mass, the orbitals of the electrons
> are going to be larger?

If you don't change Planck's constant, yes.  The equation governing
the wavefunction of the electron (or any other thing, for that matter)
has a factor of (h^2 / 2 m) in it.  So the mass affects the shape.  It
turns out that if you reduce the mass and energy levels by a factor of
100, the distances increase by a factor of 100^2.


> Basically, what I'm driving at here, is if you dropped the values of
> the fundamental forces, would planck's constant also change as a
> result of that?

It appears not.  Planck's constant seems to be more fundamental than
the strengths of various forces.


> Well, I'm sorta torn between this idea and Alcubierre's FTL (space
> warping) idea, but we've discussed that one a few months ago, and
> if I remember correctly, you made the contention that it leads to
> wormholes and time travel, which we really don't want to deal with.

;^>  I can be a party-pooper, can't I?

Though I actually like the idea of FTL causality consequences.

Besides, wormholes probably automatically prevent causality paradoxes;
if they approach a configuration in which a closed timelike path
exists, zero-interval feedback may well destroy the wormholes involved
before you actually get any time travel effects.  This is a serious
conjecture in physics.  It also opens up interesting possibilities in
the game universe -- someone might do this deliberately for political
or military reasons.


> I'm shooting for something with a hard-SF feel.

You can still have FTL or inertial suppression with a hard-SF feel,
you just need to consider the consequences that physics geeks like me
are going to pick up, or alternatively try not go into details at all.
A rule of thumb is that you're allowed one big violation of
physics-as-we-know-it so long as you at least try to predict some of
the side effects.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:27:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:27:11 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>; from jenry023@student.liu.se on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:24:28PM +0200
References: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020411162610.A25877@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:24:28PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>
> Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> parts of the debate to TML chat?

Gun debate?  Do you mean the discussion of weapons useful for
killing/stopping roughly man-size targets?  Seems pretty on-topic to
me...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Asking a girl out is like finding sqrt(pi) using roman numerals.  --unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:30:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:30:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <200204112147.DVX03585@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411182555.01e801d0@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:47 PM 4/11/2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Is there not some safety standoff distance from one jump
>drive to another?  And what would that distance be?

My initial reaction is to say "100 diameters", or in this case, 100 ship 
lengths.  Beyond that distance, the jump field definitely won't be a 
problem.  Between 100 and 10 ship lengths, you've got possible problems, 
and under 10 ship lengths is definitely bad news.

Of course, the danger in this case is to both ships.  I would determine the 
result separately for each ship involved - so that one ship may not jump, 
or could misjump, or be destroyed, while the other ship has a different 
fate.  So you might make the other ship misjump (or you may not), but 
you're just as likely to misjump yourself.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:32:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:32:10 2002
Subject: [TML] FFS2 penetration
Message-ID: <B8DB5CBD.3972C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all.  How does one calculate penetration according FFS2 for small
arm?


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:36:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:36:10 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <200204112235.DVZ01545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>Gun debate?  Do you mean the discussion of weapons useful for
>killing/stopping roughly man-size targets?  Seems pretty on-
>topic to me...
>

Well, technically we could take it to tml-guntech.  We 
already have a considerable amount of discussion over there 
about weapons (what is a snub pistol anyway - go to tml-
guntech and find out..)

I try to have an ObTrav. Should I post my version of the 
combat system on tml or tml-guntech?
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:38:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:38:49 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155951.01dc24b0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8DB5E1A.39732%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 1:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Tod, what was the free recoil of that elephant rifle again?  For
> comparison.  I found your earlier calculations on the M1, M16, and gauss
> rifle, which were two orders of magnitude lower and then some compared to
> the above 65 gram bullet.
> 
> Hm, I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and plug in numbers for known
> weapons and science fiction weapons from time to time.  Then post on a Web
> site so all interested parties can reference it from time to time.

See my calculator at http://www.travellercentral.com

follow the links to House Rules : Projectile Weapons

(or go straight to http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/ke.html)

I just added penetration for TNE.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:41:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:41:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
Message-ID: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Derek Wildstar says
<snip derek's take on adjacent ships activating their 
hyperdrive>

That sounds pretty good. It means, however, that ships might 
have a minimum separation, which affects fleet actions.

Would we also have another problem a la B5? Starting one jump 
field within another?
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:43:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:43:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DB5EB6.39733%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 5:14 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> My first choice would probably be a .375 H&H. Much though I admire
> Weatherbys they cost too much and are generally over-powered if you're
> using solids - they'd tend to horribly over-penetrate anything but the
> heaviest game. With expansive bullets I'd drop to a .338 Winchester or
> .340 Weatherby unless in Africa, in which case the .375's would be the
> way to go, IMO. .416s and .458/.460s are good vs buffs, elephants, etc.
> but aren't long-range rounds, so you'd need a second rifle for those
> 300-500 yard shots on eland, etc.

Another classic 'smallbore'.  The only problem with the .375 H&H and rounds
based on it is that it requires a magnum length action. One of my alltime
favorites.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411183848.0188fa70@192.168.0.1>

Loren had mentioned a Traveller specific version of the GURPS character 
generation software was being considered.

Is this project a go?  If so, when would it see the light of day?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
           http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:51:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:51:15 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F107XkF81yvoXFMxmyh000181e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:41, Sam D wrote:

> I think this is a very good point.  Whether you are a hunter, acting
> in self defense, a cop or a soldier, your objective should be the
> same.  Despite occassional talk that hunters are content to let a
> wounded deer slip away or are very concerned about damaging too much
> meat, my experience is just the opposite. Most of the hunters I
> know, if an animal does not drop like a sack of bricks, immediately
> start thinking about practicing more or getting a more powerful
> rifle.  In fact, hunters and cops seem to take "stopping power" much
> more seriously than the military. 

To let an animal get away to die slowly over the course of hours or 
days is IMO horribly cruel, and utterly unsportsmanlike. I've had many 
arguments with people over goat culling because of this. For some years 
back in the 90s it was common 'sport' for a couple of guys to drive out 
to the back of a farm with goat problems (getting the owner's 
permission first, of course) and shoot up the goats with semi-auto 
rifles. The most common choices were SKS carbines or semi-auto only 
AK's. It was also common for many to simply fire into a mod of goats 
and then let the survivors wander off, gut shot or with broken legs. 
When I pointed out that this was cruel and that they'd be upset if I 
were to do this to a dog or a deer they'd look blank and say "but 
they're only goats." Then they'd wonder why I wouldn't associate with 
them any more.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:53:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:53:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <200204112251.DVZ03066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>Loren had mentioned a Traveller specific version of the 
>GURPS character generation software was being considered.
>
I've got most of the GURPS material, but not GT.  (Ultra 
Tech, Space, but not GT).  

I could get a copy of GT and try my hand at it.  Are there a 
lot of variations from the basic GURPS?  It wouldn't take too 
long to do.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:50:50AM +1200
References: <F107XkF81yvoXFMxmyh000181e3@hotmail.com> <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020411170142.A26003@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:50:50AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> To let an animal get away to die slowly over the course of hours or 
> days is IMO horribly cruel, and utterly unsportsmanlike.

Agreed but...

> When I pointed out that this was cruel and that they'd be upset if I 
> were to do this to a dog or a deer they'd look blank and say "but 
> they're only goats."

In NZ are goats viewed simpy as nuisance animals, or as something
more?  I wouldn't feel overly bad about mortally a shark, snake, wolf
or coyote and leaving it to die, but I'd never do the same for a deer,
duck or other animal.

How much of this is based on perception, I wonder?  The animals I
don't care about I either hate (sharks and snakes) or consider
varmints and pests (wolves & coyotes), whereas the ones I do are ones
I respect.

That said, I cannot see goats as a `nasty' animal (like the feral ones
I mentioned).  Nuisances, but no more than that.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ubi non accusator, ibi non judex.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:04:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
In-Reply-To: <200204112251.DVZ03066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:51:24PM -0400
References: <200204112251.DVZ03066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020411170334.B26003@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:51:24PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> I could get a copy of GT and try my hand at it.  Are there a lot of
> variations from the basic GURPS?  It wouldn't take too long to do.

Probably the most work would be inputting the lists of skills &c.
You'll want to rewrite (not simply paraphrase) the skill descriptions,
as they are copyrighted.  There is a process to get permission to use
them, but I typically prefer that my work be as free as possible of
encumbrances.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"Oh bother," said the Borg, "We've assimilated Pooh."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:06:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:06:11 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 17:24, Jens Rydholm wrote:

> Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> parts of the debate to TML chat?
> 
> Or else I'll begin posting socialist and communist propaganda...
> 
> (not a serious threat, but about as relevant)

But how can guns not be relevant to Traveller? :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:07:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:07:40 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <F99548IlvMTkL01NspD000142b4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6BF68.28920.307BF2@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:54, Sam D wrote:

> You are better off getting a cheap rifle and a more expensive scope.
>  Unless you are a very skilled rifleman, a decent scope (either 4x,
> 2-7 or 3-9) is a great asset.  Nice binocs are also important. 

Also with a scope it's a good idea to get one in which the objective 
lens size divided by the power (for a vari-power about mid-range will 
do for this) is 7mm or more. Less than this and the light gathering 
capacity isn't the best, no matter how clear the optics, and the 
scope's utility will drop off quickly in poor light conditions. Thus 
4x32 is adequate, 4x40 is very nice (though more than 8-10mm is more 
than your eye can use) and 6x32 not the best.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:10:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:10:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F70SDx1kLwxTQTYkWSz00001108@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6C056.18523.341AE7@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 15:31, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Yeah, I've got to think this over even more.  To my mind, minor
> race rebellions aided and abetted by Terran infiltrators should be a
> big part of the Interstellar Wars.  There would have been uprisings
> and sabotage a sector or so "behind" the fighting front and the
> minor race allies providing the lower-TL cannon fodder for the
> Alliance's offensives. 

That would certainly make sense once things got going (say after IW4 or 
thereabouts).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:11:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:11:44 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F56z8kI063RA5C2duii00023931@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6C056.6241.341BB4@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 18:05, Sam D wrote:

> Justin Kim said:
> 
> >	5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar
> >helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target
> >(titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle
> >velocity of 715m/s.
> 
> Is that a FN pistol round?  Are they talking about using it in anything 
> other than a pistol?
> 
> There was a lot of heartache going from .45 to 9m; can you imagine the howls 
> if they went to a .22 pistol?

No, it's for their personal defence weapon, the P90. Basically it's a 
late 1990s take on the SMG, but using a cut down rifle round rather 
than a pistol round, so it has a much better effective range than a 
normal SMG. They're the toys being used in the later seasons of 
Stargate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <p05101503b8db8ae2c7f1@[10.0.1.10]>
References: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6C0AF.31055.357841@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:55, Justin Kim wrote:

> 	It's supposed to leave large nasty wound cavities in the 
> target.  The website I referenced in my last post used to have a 
> picture of the track the round left in a block of ballistic gelatin. 
> I'm a complete novice, but it looked unpleasant to me :)
> 
> 	The 5.7x28mm round was designed to replace the 9mm because of 
> the 9mm's poor armor penetrating capabilities.

However most gun-nuts I know have come to the conclusion that it's 
better than a pistol, but nothing near as good as the 5.56x45mm at just 
about anything, especially wounding.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:16:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:16:52 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
In-Reply-To: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DB66BD.3974E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 5:36 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> I'm trying to make up my mind between the .375 and the .338.
> Since I'm in N. America, it may be the .338.

For NA, .338 is going to be fine, unless you're in Alaska and shooting moose
and polar bear.  Even then, you could probably manage alright.

Given you predilection for sniping, I'm surprised you didn't mention the
.338 Lapua.
> 
> The situations that Traveller characters find themselves in
> are rarely more than a few opponents, and most are armed
> (depending on the GM, of course) with pistols and short range
> weapons.  In one past campaign, I did rather well with a
> single-shot falling block rifle in .375 H&H.  I was playing a
> PH, and this was my "walking about" rifle.  I was infamous
> for killing three other player characters by shooting down
> their custom air raft (first shot hit the driver through the
> front, the second shot disabled the powerplant and the other
> two plummeted to their deaths).
> 
> If you also consider that Traveller gun combat is at about
> the same range as a Cape Buffalo encounter, and you're
> probably going to live for about as many shots (two, maybe
> three), then I think that whatever makes a good Cape Buffalo
> weapon might make a good Traveller combat weapon.
> 
> Let's see.  We'll make it .416 Remington, since we can still
> get Speer tungsten core solids.
> 
> The rifle should be a 4-shot controlled-feed pre-64
> Winchester action (with fixed ejector).  Barrel length should
> be 22 inches, and we'll go with a muzzle brake.  The stock
> should be optimized for firing on your hind legs, and we'll
> put a Trijicon Reflex sight on top, with express sights just
> in case that gets broken.

The new Winchester 'Classic' has controlled feed, and IIRC a fixed ejector.
But go first class and get one of Pete Grissel's Dakotas.  I think I pick a
ghost ring over express sights for adventuring.  Maybe 1x LER scope mounted
scout-like.
> 
> A PH should be able to get two or three quick aimed shots off
> with something like this.  I haven't seen many Traveller-
> style combats last more than a few combat rounds. And you'll
> only have to hit another human *once* with something like
> this.  Tod might make it a .458, though.

Maybe .470NE in a Searcy double rifle.  Two *really* quick shots, and reload
speed is not too bad if you practice.  Of course you have to have the gun
regulated for the planet and area your on.

For Armored targets, there always the .577NE in the double gun.
> 
> Get yourself a pouch that holds 20 rounds, maybe keep 40
> rounds in your pack.  More than enough for most Traveller
> adventures.


More numbers, 'cause it's more gearhead like:
(Stats are for TNE - FFS.  Loads are from A-Square's "Any Shot You Want")

Weapon  KE      RE  Dam   Recoil    Pen
.223    1801    4   3       3       1-Nil
.308    3536    19  4       4       2-3-Nil
.338    5526    50  6       6       2-4-6
.375    6097    64  6       6       2-4-6
.416    7232    80  6       6       2-4-6
.458    7090    87  6       6       2-4-6
.460    9780   146  7       7       2-4-6
.577NE  9042   167  6       6       2-4-6
.577TR  13188  197  8       7       2-3-4
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:19:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:19:15 2002
Subject: [TML] News from Delphi
References: <20020410143005.F2EB127AB3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB61A54.E69EDB1@together.net>

> From: "Graham Donald" <gndonald@hotmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:11:56 +0800
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I was wondering how is the Delphi history project going, I looked at their
> site, but it hasn't been updated since 2000.
> 

	I'm not sure of which site you are looking at, but the Delphi project
continues. The main project board is on JTAS (http://jtas.sjgames.com/
), become a subscriber if you are not already. 
	February 5th issue of JTAS contains the Delphi Foundation document, an
article describing the history, including a set of maps showing the
historical progression of colonization in the sector, a description of
some of the nobility, and a few of the more predominate groups. 

	The landgrab has begun, with a few worlds claimed and more ideas tossed
around. In addition to the foundation document, I also have a summary of
the discussions up to the point of the the writing of the foundation
document. 

	So, if you'd like to do a landgrab, but without having explain 20 years
of canon, or would like a more settled sector to play in come on over to
Delphi. The nice, safe core of the Imperium. 
-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:21:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:21:11 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <20020411135544.A25603@4dv.net>
References: <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200
Message-ID: <3CB6C311.15964.3EC7C1@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 13:55, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > 
> > Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle 
> > you like the look of.
> 
> Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
> _ugly_:-(

I rather like Ruger's line of stainless and synthetics. The almost 
skeletal green stocks look quite cool, IMO.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:30:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:30:10 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20020411170142.A26003@4dv.net>
References: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:50:50AM +1200
Message-ID: <3CB6C54B.24759.4779CF@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 17:01, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> > When I pointed out that this was cruel and that they'd be upset if I 
> > were to do this to a dog or a deer they'd look blank and say "but 
> > they're only goats."
> 
> In NZ are goats viewed simpy as nuisance animals, or as something
> more?  I wouldn't feel overly bad about mortally a shark, snake, wolf
> or coyote and leaving it to die, but I'd never do the same for a deer,
> duck or other animal.

A serious nuisance - feral goats damage farmland near bush, and do a 
_lot_ of damage to native bush, as do opossums and wasps - all imports. 
Deer move from vermin to game and back again, depending on how many 
there are and on politics.
 
> How much of this is based on perception, I wonder?  The animals I
> don't care about I either hate (sharks and snakes) or consider
> varmints and pests (wolves & coyotes), whereas the ones I do are ones
> I respect.
> 
> That said, I cannot see goats as a `nasty' animal (like the feral ones
> I mentioned).  Nuisances, but no more than that.

Whereas I don't see any reason why the morality of leaving animals to 
suffer should depend on their 'pleasantness' or the worthiness as game.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:31:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:31:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DB5EB6.39733%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB6C54B.322.477957@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 15:39, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Another classic 'smallbore'.  The only problem with the .375 H&H and
> rounds based on it is that it requires a magnum length action. One of
> my alltime favorites. 

I've never been that impressed by arguments for this round or that 
round based on action length. IME the speed of an action has more to do 
with it's overall design than it's length, and 'short stroking' occurs 
when people get cute and try to speed their reload up by not drawing 
the bolt all the way to the rear. The fastest reliable reload, 
regardless of action length, is to draw the bolt back until it stops, 
than push forward and down in one smooth motion. It's that simple.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:34:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:34:11 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <3CB6C311.15964.3EC7C1@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DB6B04.39757%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 4:20 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

>> 
>> Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
>> _ugly_:-(
> 
> I rather like Ruger's line of stainless and synthetics. The almost
> skeletal green stocks look quite cool, IMO.

I go all over the place.  I like the look of a well made synthetic stock.
Not the plastic injection-molded ones, but the laminated  ones like H-S
Precision, Griffen and Bell and the like.

Nothing beats wood for looks though.  I have several nice pieces of walnut,
one Bubinga and one Cocobolo waiting to be inletted.  Cocobolo is very
beautiful, heavy, tough and expensive.  I wanted to bring the weight of my
.458 up and decided on a dense wood rather than a mercury recoil reducer.
The wood is georgeous.  Now to wait a year or two so it dries properly.

If things gel, my wife we get sent to the international law enforcement
academy in Botswana. If that happens, you know where I'll be. :)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:37:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:37:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
References: <200204111918.DVS00303@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d601c1e1b1$c48e36c0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Niches


> shadow@krypton.rain.com says
> >
> >That pushes the 1 kJ pulse to *gigawatt* power levels in the 
> >rifle. Even if it's only for a microsecond, a gigawatt is a 
> lot of power.
> >
> You should realize then the power of the current smokeless 
> powder cartridges.  We're raising 5 to 8 kJ (depending on 
> caliber) in seven-tenths of a millisecond.

5kJ in 0.0007s =>   7.14 MW
8kJ in 0.0007s => 11.43 MW

So you have about 100 times less power...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:00:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:00:15 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <B8DB6B04.39757%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB6C311.15964.3EC7C1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB6CC2B.3222.6256C7@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 16:32, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Nothing beats wood for looks though.  I have several nice pieces of walnut,
> one Bubinga and one Cocobolo waiting to be inletted.  Cocobolo is very
> beautiful, heavy, tough and expensive.  I wanted to bring the weight of my
> .458 up and decided on a dense wood rather than a mercury recoil reducer.
> The wood is georgeous.  Now to wait a year or two so it dries properly.

My father has a Swedish Mauser from 1899, and it has the most amazing 
tiger-stripe stock. The first thing we said when we saw it was "Now 
don't you wish you could put that stock on the .30-06?"
 
> If things gel, my wife we get sent to the international law enforcement
> academy in Botswana. If that happens, you know where I'll be. :)

Sitting at home minding the kids, of course.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:01:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:01:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <00d601c1e1b1$c48e36c0$52200050@matt>
References: <200204111918.DVS00303@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <00d601c1e1b1$c48e36c0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020412095904.A9693@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> 8kJ in 0.0007s => 11.43 MW
> 
> So you have about 100 times less power...

The best figures I've seen require about 20 MW for a laser weapon.  1
kJ in a microsecond is bad because you only get a surface explosion,
no penetration at all.  1 kJ in 100 pulses of about half a microsecond
each is much better.

Besides, I've personally built a laser that produces a pulse with a
power of about a gigawatt.  If properly made, it could fit into pistol
size.  Peak power means nothing.  Pulse *energies* and *sustained*
power are what makes weapon lasers difficult to build.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:04:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:04:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB6C54B.322.477957@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DB71E0.3977B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 4:30 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> I've never been that impressed by arguments for this round or that
> round based on action length. IME the speed of an action has more to do
> with it's overall design than it's length, and 'short stroking' occurs
> when people get cute and try to speed their reload up by not drawing
> the bolt all the way to the rear. The fastest reliable reload,
> regardless of action length, is to draw the bolt back until it stops,
> than push forward and down in one smooth motion. It's that simple.

It has more to do with the scarcity of magnum length actions that are
suitable for dangerous game.  Thankfully, Winchester has brought out the
'classic' action and some good stuff is coming in from Brno.  Sorry,
Remington just doesn't cut it and I don't care for Ruger.  That diagonal
screw is worthless.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:10:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:10:10 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB6C54B.24759.4779CF@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:30:19AM +1200
References: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>; <20020411170142.A26003@4dv.net> <3CB6C54B.24759.4779CF@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020411180903.A26285@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:30:19AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Whereas I don't see any reason why the morality of leaving animals to 
> suffer should depend on their 'pleasantness' or the worthiness as game.

I should point out that I'd not deliberately mis-hit the animals on my
hate-list, or even leave them to suffer; it's just that I wouldn't
track 'em down to deliver a mercy shot, whereas I would try to for the
better animals.  Rapid-firing into a herd of goats is right out.
About the only animals I'd even consider that about are sharks.  I
hate sharks.  And even then I'd poss. not condone it.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I can see an opening for the Four Lusers of the Apocalypse: `I didn't
change anything'; `My e-mail doesn't work';  `I can't print' and `Is the
network broken?'                                          --Paul McAuley

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:22:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:22:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DB71E0.3977B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB6C54B.322.477957@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB6D156.3272.7687E7@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 17:01, Tod Glenn wrote:

> It has more to do with the scarcity of magnum length actions that are
> suitable for dangerous game.  Thankfully, Winchester has brought out the
> 'classic' action and some good stuff is coming in from Brno.  Sorry,
> Remington just doesn't cut it and I don't care for Ruger.  That diagonal
> screw is worthless.

I've liked all the Ruger's I've handled, and not because of the screw, 
either. They've pointed fairly well, had decent triggers (for an out-of-
the-box rifle in their price range) and smooth actions. They also look 
pretty good to me (YMMV) and were accurate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:47:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:47:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
In-Reply-To: <4b.1b7f2094.29e70e82@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411172243.009f1c90@mindspring.com>

--=====================_9693781==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 12:06 PM 4/11/02 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet
>cover.  In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.
>
>   And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the first 
> place? The Lt. maybe? lol!

No, it was just part of the 3-color woodland cammo on the helmet 
cover.  Completely random.  But useful at night.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
--=====================_9693781==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 12:06 PM 4/11/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite><font face="arial" size=2>From:
Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt; <br><br>
I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet
<br>
cover.&nbsp; In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar. <br><br>
&nbsp; And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the
first place? The Lt. maybe? lol! </font></blockquote><br>
No, it was just part of the 3-color woodland cammo on the helmet
cover.&nbsp; Completely random.&nbsp; But useful at night.<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="arial" size=2>--<br><br>
Douglas E. Berry&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
gridlore@mindspring.com<br>
<a href="http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html" eudora="autourl">http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.</a><a href="http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html" eudora="autourl">html<br>
</a><a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/" eudora="autourl">http://</a>www.livejournal<a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/" eudora="autourl">.com/users/gridlore/</a><br><br>
&quot;Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<br>
sounds like they're snoring.&quot; - Harvey Danger</font></html>

--=====================_9693781==_.ALT--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:48:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:48:39 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020411162610.A25877@4dv.net>
References: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411172651.009f1230@mindspring.com>

At 04:26 PM 4/11/02 -0600, you wrote:
>On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:24:28PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> >
> > Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> > parts of the debate to TML chat?
>
>Gun debate?  Do you mean the discussion of weapons useful for
>killing/stopping roughly man-size targets?  Seems pretty on-topic to
>me...

Maybe at first, but it has long past the point where there is any 
game-usable material.

I agree, either private mail or TML-chat.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:51:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:51:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <200204120047.DWD04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>Probably the most work would be inputting the lists of 
>skills &c. You'll want to rewrite (not simply paraphrase) 
>the skill descriptions, as they are copyrighted.  There is a 
>process to get permission to use them, but I typically 
>prefer that my work be as free as possible of
>encumbrances.
>

I wouldn't mind the following: I write it exactly to the 
specs.  We get approval for a time-limited playtest - they 
say it's good, and they distribute it.  If they make 
anything,  I get a piece.  If it's for free, then I get my 
name on the package.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:06:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:06:10 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
Message-ID: <200204120105.DWD07544@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Given you predilection for sniping, I'm surprised you didn't 
>mention the .338 Lapua.

In the Sako rifle?  Probably.  But then again, I'm trying to 
get into a different niche.  Ever try to find the .338 Lapua 
at the store? Oh, that's right, you're in Oregon...

The main reason I handload is that Maryland State Law has 
funny rules - you can't sell the latest types of ammunition 
that a manufacturer produces without "approval" (there is a 
similar thing for models of handgun - new models of handgun 
are very rarely approved for sale - it took four years for 
the Encore to appear in Maryland).

>But go first class and get one of Pete Grissel's Dakotas.  I 
>think I pick a ghost ring over express sights for 
>adventuring.  Maybe 1x LER scope mounted
>scout-like.

I can get a Dakota action in the white from Brownell's and 
put the thing together myself.  Then I could send it out to 
get blued.  I'm not yet willing to do the really dirty work 
like bluing.

Ah, now I have it.  By your charts, the .338 is a good 
compromise. Did they ever make the Valmet 412 in .338?  It's 
been discontinued, but it makes a fast two shots.

You could, when it was sold, get extra barrel combinations 
for the same receiver.  So I could get a "shorty" double-12, 
loaded with SCIMTR for shipboard use.  Get the double .338 
for outside work.  And double .460 for pesky critters.

It's too bad the Krag action isn't that strong.  I really 
like that ability to top off the magazine without opening the 
weapon.

If I was playing in your campaign, I think I would be a PH, 
and would probably have a brace of doubles as per above.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:12:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:12:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Matthew Bond" says
<snip laser power>

I think I did a laser calculation on tml-guntech
which has a 6.8kJ laser in 0.7 milliseconds (not 
microseconds) that is more than capable of penetrating 30cm 
of flesh.  The assumption was made that I would be vaporizing 
a column of water, in 0.7 milliseconds, and that the target 
spot would be 1mm x 1mm.  We came up with 1000 times the 
power required to do the minimum vaporization and it came
out to 6.8 kJ.

So, it's the same as the .338.

Wavelength is 1.3nm, using a overtone deuterium flouride 
laser.  
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
In-Reply-To: <200204120105.DWD07544@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6DDB7.14961.A6E275@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 21:05, John T. Kwon wrote:

> It's too bad the Krag action isn't that strong.  I really 
> like that ability to top off the magazine without opening the 
> weapon.

How about a weapon like the Lee-Enfields in which there was a cut-off 
over the magazine. You engaged the cut-off so that the rounds could be 
fed from the magazine and loaded shots individually when you weren't i 
a hurry. When the sh*t went everywhere you'd disengage the cut-off and 
have a full magazine available.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:46:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:46:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Written by the Victors (was: Matters of Will)
In-Reply-To: <20020412005325.F414D27A9A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020411183439.00a4cec0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 19:20:27, "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> 
wrote:

>     The Terrans had help, and lots of it.

Not to mention their microscopic buddies - "the humblest creatures which 
God, in His wisdom, placed upon the Earth."  :)

But bacteria and minor races don't edit library data, and so, a thousand 
years and change later, the popular history has it that the Brave and 
Ingenious Terrans somehow managed to hold out for centuries against the 
full might of the Empire, then miraculously sweep over it to throw down the 
hated Vilani Overlords in mere decades.  (And then promptly fumbled the 
ball themselves, but the Solomani don't like to talk about that part.)

The academics know better, of course, but who ever listens to crazy old 
scholars?  Aside from down-on-their-luck free trader crews, that is.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:59:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:59:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the
 list)
In-Reply-To: <200204120047.DWD04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411215441.02284008@192.168.0.1>

At 08:47 PM 4/11/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>"Robert A. Uhl" says
> >Probably the most work would be inputting the lists of
> >skills &c. You'll want to rewrite (not simply paraphrase)
> >the skill descriptions, as they are copyrighted.  There is a
> >process to get permission to use them, but I typically
> >prefer that my work be as free as possible of
> >encumbrances.
>I wouldn't mind the following: I write it exactly to the
>specs.  We get approval for a time-limited playtest - they
>say it's good, and they distribute it.  If they make
>anything,  I get a piece.  If it's for free, then I get my
>name on the package.

Why reinvent the wheel here?
SJG already has a very nice character creation program (ok, so may you guys 
wanna do a LINUX port).
Ok, so the nice part is MHO from playing with the demo version.
What Loren was talking about before was the program they have tailored to 
Traveller.
Plus a big bonus of some method of generating/converting characters for 
other flavors of Traveller:
CT, Mega:T, TNE, T4...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:08:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:08:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411024937.01dc7010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020412020513.B8D47279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/11/02 at 02:50 AM,  laning <laning@wizard.net> said:

>Wow, hadn't realized that 'Salon' had already visited the PBEM world.

>Thanks for the good URLs.

You're welcome. 

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:19:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:19:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <200204120218.DWG00159@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>
>What Loren was talking about before was the program they 
>have tailored to Traveller.
>Plus a big bonus of some method of generating/converting 
>characters for other flavors of Traveller:
>CT, Mega:T, TNE, T4...
>

That's what I'm talking about.  No sense in writing the GURPS 
thingie again.  But a Traveller generator.  Might be nice to 
have one that did all systems from beginning to end.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:21:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:21:37 2002
Subject: [TML] [PROPOSAL] The Fornast Project
Message-ID: <LAW2-F100BKhwWn5WNW000021c5@hotmail.com>

The Fornast Project

I was wondering whether anyone would be interested in helping to detail 
Fornast Sector in the same way & using the same procedures/guidelines as the 
Delphi Project.

As a startpoint, there are the maps & UWP's at Anthony's Maps Site 
(http://maps.grandsurvey.com). Also whatever canon information was 
published.

A quick scan of the names indicates that people of Solomani descent had a 
major hand in naming the sector, several worlds appear to have been named 
for authors, artists and locations on Terra.

If anyone is interested in joining me, please contact me directly at 
gndonald@hotmail.com, use the subject heading [FORNAST].

Graham


This is the Universe ... Big isn't it?


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:48:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:48:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space 
travel, etc.?

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:55:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:55:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411225254.019d0e50@192.168.0.1>

Is this for a PBEM or a F2F?

At 10:46 PM 4/11/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
>Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space
>travel, etc.?
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:59:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:59:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120258.DWH03019@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin asks
>
>Is this for a PBEM or a F2F?

PBEM.  The F2F will be coming in May.
________________
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http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:22:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:22:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <F156LszeIOVn1KL99o200017a04@hotmail.com>

Traveller optics reflect (suprise) what was available in the 1970s.  
Basically, you are getting a hunting scope.

Since then, combat optics have become light and tough enough for general 
issue, and have basically developed along two lines.  First, the "dot" type, 
like the Aimpoint Comp M or Trijicon Reflex, have no magnification but 
vastly increase the speed of target acquision versus irons.  The second 
type, like the ELCAN or Trijicon ACOG, are low magnification scopes (in the 
1.5 to 4 power range) which give greater precision at longer range and 
probably also have slightly increased speed over irons at short range.  With 
either type of optic, you shoot with both eyes open and the recticle glows.

How could these two very different types of optics be integrated into 
Traveller?  They seem to be a pretty important development, but our poor 
heroes in the 53rd century are still stuck with iron sight or the vague 
supersight on the ACR & Gauss Rifle.  I looked over the CT rules and there 
is no provision for having a "fast" weapon, when that is probably pretty 
important.  Do other versions have weapon speed?

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:34:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:34:28 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F114GuOJ75lRN8aK38o0000ff5e@hotmail.com>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:

>On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> >
> > Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle
> > you like the look of.
>
>Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
>_ugly_:-(

Call me klutz, but I am so rough on guns that I am afraid to take the woods 
out of the safe.  There is also a certain utilitarian beauty to a synthetic 
stock.  Plus, in case no one has noticed, I kind of like black rifles.  ;)

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:35:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:35:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <200204120333.DWJ00923@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>With either type of optic, you shoot with both eyes open and 
>the recticle glows.
>

When I shoot with the Leupold Mark V M3, I shoot with both 
eyes open.  It has no glowing reticle.  If you're closing 
your eyes when using a scope, you're making yourself very 
uncomfortable and reducing your peripheral vision. Makes it 
hard to use a scope on a running target.

>How could these two very different types of optics be 
>integrated into Traveller?  

The combat system *sucks*.  If you see the rules for increase 
in aim modifier by time spent aiming in PCCS, and combine 
that with maximum ballistic accuracy at each range, you get 
an extremely accurate picture of how much quicker certain 
weapons and sighting systems can be at various ranges, and 
how much benefit they provide at various ranges.  The detail 
is so well done that you can actually differentiate between 
weapons.

There is nothing like this in Traveller.  The arguments that 
you see us have about "this weapon and sight" vs. "that 
weapon and sight" actually translate into the model in PCCS.

OTOH, the character generation in PCCS *sucks*
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
In-Reply-To: <200204120105.DWD07544@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DBA6E8.397D0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 6:05 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
>> Given you predilection for sniping, I'm surprised you didn't
>> mention the .338 Lapua.
> 
> In the Sako rifle?  Probably.  But then again, I'm trying to
> get into a different niche.  Ever try to find the .338 Lapua
> at the store? Oh, that's right, you're in Oregon...

Actually, I like the Accuracy International.

> I can get a Dakota action in the white from Brownell's and
> put the thing together myself.  Then I could send it out to
> get blued.  I'm not yet willing to do the really dirty work
> like bluing.

Gonna turn your own barrel and everything?  I build rifles all the time.  I
wouldn't care to try to match the stock fitting they do at Dakota.
> 
> Ah, now I have it.  By your charts, the .338 is a good
> compromise. Did they ever make the Valmet 412 in .338?  It's
> been discontinued, but it makes a fast two shots.
>
How about a Browning BAR (the civilian one) in .338.  I see they're still
making them.  4 quick shots.  Believe it on not, I've seen a BAR rebarreled
to .458.
> 
> It's too bad the Krag action isn't that strong.  I really
> like that ability to top off the magazine without opening the
> weapon.

One locking lug
> 
> If I was playing in your campaign, I think I would be a PH,
> and would probably have a brace of doubles as per above.

I run a PH myself.  He's an NPC now.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020412135535.A10116@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> The assumption was made that I would be vaporizing 
> a column of water, in 0.7 milliseconds, and that the target 
> spot would be 1mm x 1mm.  We came up with 1000 times the 
> power required to do the minimum vaporization and it came
> out to 6.8 kJ.

That's odd, I get 500 J/m for minimum-energy vaporization of water in
such a column.  Multiplying that by 0.3 metres and a factor of 1000
gives me 150 kJ.

In general, the problem with single-pulse lasers is that the vapour
(and/or plasma) absorbs and/or scatters most of the incoming energy.
Even for a 1 mm spot size and relatively long 0.7 ms pulse, you'll
mainly get a surface crater rather than a drilled hole because most of
the energy is scattered and absorbed outside the target.

The easiest way to avoid this is to lengthen the pulses until plasma
heating isn't an issue any more, but this means that the target will
probably move too far during the "pulse".

The next easiest is to have many very short pulses that cause
miniature explosions, and enough time between pulses for most of the
products to clear (in the first few pulses near the surface) or widen
the damage channel (in later pulses).  Rather than vaporization, the
primary damage mechanism becomes kinetic energy of the products.  This
is more effective on living targets, since it takes a *lot* more
energy to vaporize tissue or bone than to tear or break it.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:11:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:11:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <F626HHGNZ4mF1IT18ol00001f93@hotmail.com>

What is PCCS?

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:11:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:11:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204121200450.15966-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Derek:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> Good scenario hook.

 Thank You

> IMTU, there are Imperial standards for data storage and media, mainly
> promulgated by the Scout Service.  This is not a standard in the sense that
> all equipment is required by law to support it, but rather a de-facto
> standard in the sense that the IISS X-boat system uses a specific set of
> formats to transfer messages.

 Funny but I would personally thing that to be the case in this reality.
But I learned from a Coast Guard friend that they  train for some work on
Max. Then have a Unix/Lynix system in the field. I know that the holywood
special effects people love the Amiga and Light Wave prg. The Amiga
version. Remembering that in 93 Speilburg <sp?> was offering full new
price for old 1200s and 400s just to have a stock pile of the Amiga
special-custom chips. I know from a Video made by an Amiga Group, that I
had to return. That Nasa uses Amiga 1200s and Amiga 4000s. Recently I
learened that the IRS doesn't keep  old Windrone machines. So the records
kept say on a Winblown 95v1 is not viewable by the IRS. Keep that in mind
for an audit. Got that from the H&R block people in town.

 Personally and this is for MTU rebirth. I see things as being very
chaotic.By that I mean for example. Take the  computer wars of the 1908s.
FWIW the computers won <BG> I sold TRS <a.k.a. TRaSh> 80s for Rasio Shack
as a local tech. OK it is a known fact that Billy hates. But he did sell
his "Basic OS" to Jack Tramiel creator of Commodore and all rights for
$7500 <I'll send the e-mail addy of the man that was there to any one that
asks, Mr. Jim Butterfield>. The TRS 80, C=64, PET, Vic-20, C-16, Plus/4,
C=128, PC II, Colt. Those save the thr TRS 80 all being 8 bit C= modles.
These all had different forms of Basic as an OS along with a built in
interpreter.

 O.K. add the different Apples, Atarai, Franklin, Osborne <sp?> and for
the U.K. members I will mention the Speccy <Spectrum: flame wars on
comp.sys.cbm about this one> Each had a different basic. To the point that
they wer pretty much incompatible with each other. I know that ther were
other models using other Basic formats and loading. I know that my
prefered PC system uses GCR formatiing. I think another one is called MFD,
but am not certain of the title.

 Now take all of those and what I missed. Add to that the IBuM system
starting from the Pc jr. to current. All the differeent versions of the
windoze NT and ## themes. I mean can you today on the X thing read a disk
from a PC jr  on original media/format?

 Then add to all of that the number of imperial worlds and Independent
worlds. We won't ask about Darrians, Sword Worldsm hiver or the Zho. <BG>

 You did bring up a point that I was alluding to, a standard for Imperial
ships. Though the used Gazelle may not have even if it is a Fiery variant
<most popular IMTU> the current system. If this system is based off the
windoze. Then it is impossible to read a 20+ old disk. Even if Imperial.
Yeah I am a Wintel Basher and proud of it. <SEG> In a game concept. What I
am wondering as an example. Say your game in CT is in in 1105. Your ship
is 1095 era. Rather new for a team I know. But the disk you uncover.
Though Imperial is from say 1075. Based on todays theorem of disposable
computers. How can the competer man on the ship read it? <A> the equipment
<B> the current skill of the compter man. Does though make a great sotry
line. Now if you add the local tech level flavour on a computer and for
the use of the citizens of the planet in question..... Oy such Tsuris!

> It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the
> Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of
> pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding
> and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of
> languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate,
> lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications
> protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of
> getting messages into and out of the system.

 Point well stated. Computer incompatibilities would make the Imperiaum
fall apart. Before the MT saga. Pardon me for using the Commodore as an
example platform in this part. It is however the only one that I know to
any degree. On the concept of  being standard for msg and images. I see a
parrel to the C= PC platform. Take this msg that I am writing. Written in
PINE 4.44 my e-mail system. Sent out in ASCII. Though my actual system
uses the PET ascii as it's default system. HTML though for a msg does bug
me and a lot of people. On my system it presents all the commands as well
as the msg. Yet I can use a prg from last year called Wave B2.9 <still
Beta> that allows me to read in 80c HTML. In fact my book mark file is
converted that way. JOs a free Beta Test DL also will read on screen HTML.

 Images: I can veiw off line GIF and JPG files. Also I can pritn them
through Post Script and even EPS <Encapsulated Post Script> Images. There
is a tool that I haven't had yet to use. That will convert PDF to PS for
my use and zip it in PK2.04g zip. A format that I can also use in packing
and unpacking. All on a 1984 PC.

 My point of the above is that there is probably that there are those that
will upgrade the hardware and software for their system. As is being done
for mine. Though admittedly along a different vector than the windrone
system.

> The net result should be similar to the modern Internet - any computer
> manufacturer who hopes to have any significant market share at all ensures
> that their equipment can read and write the standard media and formats, and
> can speak the standard protocols.  This doesn't prevent the manufacturers
> from building machines that also support proprietary encoding and
> formats.  However, if you're stuck with a data chip in one of those
> formats, your best bet is to try to find the machine that wrote it, and
> copy the data to a standard format.

 As i showed above. There would be those that would create ways to use the
systems to see the new items. Though I do have a tendency to bristle at
the term "standard". Been a victim of that erronous ideaology many times
in many situations. I do think that some sort of "chip" is needed for the
interchange of Imperial  material. Though there are probaly PRGs to
convert the material to local standards. As i have tools to convert Ascii
to PET ascii. Or the ability to log onto a BBS or even here with Ansi
colours. Making the material sutible for the local inhabitants and the
systems that they are using. The question is the reverse possible? Which
is where the  story plot originated.

 Using today as an example. Can the Windoze users here read a file that I
make? Well some of them they can. The previously mentioned gwimport.exe
file. But that is only for text, not the images. There are emulators if
the file is make in that format <.D64, .D71, .D81> But only work if the
user hs the tool to use the files. Vice 1.8 IIRC. So I would suggest that
something in the reverse that is from local to Imperial would need to have
ben created. Or t here is some sort of thing. Like you mentioned the Inet.
Where the ability to collect items of interest is found in some form of
compatible mannerism.

 Though I sincerly doubt that the Imperium would alow any sort of history
revisionist group such as micro$oft to maintian such a terrorist strangle
hold on things.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
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 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:11:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:11:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <20020410.001437.-391371.2.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204121246530.15966-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:


 Davmoh Casan?????

BCNU

-- 
 *****
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**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
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 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411234005.01fed258@mail.qrc.com>

At 06:38 PM 4/11/2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
>That sounds pretty good. It means, however, that ships might
>have a minimum separation, which affects fleet actions.

Compared to weapon ranges or the movement scale of the Traveller ship to 
ship combat board games, a separation of 100 ship lengths is insignificant 
(required ship to ship separations are going to be on the order of 
10km-100km; ship combat scales are on the order of 
10,000km-100,000km).  It'd take a pretty large fleet for the separations to 
make the formation extend out of a single Brilliant Lances hex, for example.

>Starting one jump field within another?

I would assume that "actually inside one another" is a special case of "too 
close" presumably the separation between the drives in this case would be 
one on the order of a ship length or less - the rough equivalent of 
attempting a jump from a planetary surface.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:22:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <200204120421.DWL00090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" asks
>
>What is PCCS?

Phoenix Command Combat System.  There is no substitute.
________________
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http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:31:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
References: <200204120421.DWL00090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB662B4.8090706@yarranet.net.au>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> "Sam D" asks
> 
>>What is PCCS?

> 
> Phoenix Command Combat System.  There is no substitute.

Unless of course you favour a cinematic "I have a gun and I shoot them 
with it" style of play in which case CT or Fudge may be the combat 
system for you. Each to their own.

Phill
(Who has played using the PCCS related Aliens RPG system and knows it's 
not his cup of tea but understands that others love that sort of thing)
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:34:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:34:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DBB173.39814%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 7:46 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
> Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space
> travel, etc.?

What are you looking for characterwise?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:34:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DBB1B6.39815%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 7:46 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
> Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space
> travel, etc.?


BTW.  When are you going to post something on the Corridor website or add
description to the mail list?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:40:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:40:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120438.DWL01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>  
>
>What are you looking for characterwise?
>
More Intel characters, especially a computer expert.

We have shooters and ship drivers, a lawyer, and one incoming 
intel type.
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:41:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:41:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120439.DWL01247@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

This weekend.  I'll update the description tonight, though.
I wrote a lot of game material this week.
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:47:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:47:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
Message-ID: <OF58588BF9.5C945756-ONCA256B99.0016233C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Zane commented:
>>In fact, I was having a discussion this afternoon with a coworker about
>>whether anybody would ever have the testicular fortitude to make a 
series
>>of movies based on the Lensman or Family D'Alembert series.
>>
>I'm scared to think what a mess a studio would make out of it!

You are also forgetting that the Family D'Alembert series _IS_ Traveller!

Or as close as nevermind.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:58:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:58:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411234005.01fed258@mail.qrc.com>
References: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020411234005.01fed258@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <20020412145541.A10353@freeman.little-possums.net>

Derek Wildstar wrote:
> It'd take a pretty large fleet for the separations to make the
> formation extend out of a single Brilliant Lances hex, for example.

Only a million ships or so...


> I would assume that "actually inside one another" is a special case
> of "too close" presumably the separation between the drives in this
> case would be one on the order of a ship length or less - the rough
> equivalent of attempting a jump from a planetary surface.

Of course, one "ship length" for a dreadnaught might be 10 diameters
for a free trader...  The Tigress might be safe, but the trader has
all sorts of problems.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 23:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 11 22:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEELHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412012202.01dde140@pop.wizard.net>

Frank Pitt:
>People are discussing "open source" or free game rules and
>claiming it's going to put game designers out of work.

You overstate what I was saying.  My thesis is that if open source RPG 
design gets really successful, then it will put at least some designers out 
of work.  If.  How many are displaced depends on the success level.  It's a 
very small industry.

>This is basically crap.

Don't be shy, tell us how you really feel.  <G>


>FUDGE is sold, and it is completely freely available at the same
>time.

Most RPG players of my acquaintance ( a _lot_ of people over the last 25+ 
years) are either unaware of FUDGE's existence or don't care about 
it.  Most FUDGE owners of my acquaintance paid somebody for it.


>GURPS Lite is given away, as were the basic rules for Alternity,
>among others.

I've known a lot more GURPS owners than FUDGE owners, and not one of them 
had the free version.


>The D20 system is "open source" and there are many designers
>making money off it, (or planning to make money off it) including
>Hunter Gordon on this list.

Yes.  I am curious to see how D20 will be doing over the coming months and 
years.

Again, I rarely see the world in stark black and white.  I don't think it's 
a choice between a world that includes open source RPG design but wipes 
professional designers out of existence, or has professional designers but 
no open source designers.  But it's a small industry/marketplace and even 
modest changes might affect it in big way.

My personal preference is we charge ahead with both professional and open 
source, and meanwhile the rest of the world buys a clue and realizes how 
much fun they can be having if they join in.  It beats watching reruns on 
TV.  The market explodes, and good fortune is had by all.

--Laning
"Imagine..."  -John Lennon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 00:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204120903310.10371-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> > parts of the debate to TML chat?
> > Or else I'll begin posting socialist and communist propaganda...
> > (not a serious threat, but about as relevant)
> 
> But how can guns not be relevant to Traveller? :)

Perhaps it is just the Scandinavian socialist welfare state mindset, but I
have also trouble seeing how modern guns relates to Traveller.

I might understand this on a PCCS list, and I might even subscribe one,
did I own the game, but this seems a bit excessive.

I understood that there is a tml-gun list somewhere. Please take your
discussion there, if you need to continue. 

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 00:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] forced to unsubscribe for a bit
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412022408.01dde4e0@pop.wizard.net>

My ISP is doing bad things with my mail server.  I seem to be able to send 
but not receive.  I haven't seen any new TML traffic for the last 24 hours 
or so.  To prevent the incoming-email equivalent of Three Mile Island, I am 
turning off my TML subscription for awhile.  I apologize to anyone who I 
was also on a thread that I was participating in.  Or maybe you're just as 
glad.  :->>

Back in a day or so.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 00:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <DAV32eCyWu1MRRNOqcC0001c03c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIECKEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

> > Star Wars Name =
> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
> > name
> >
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town
> > where you were born.

Antfa Rilon (eek) or
Tonfa Rilon (a bit better)

Antony (call me Tony) Farrell


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 01:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Fri Apr 12 00:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Unpublished Material Question
Message-ID: <LAW2-F94snwO5UGXtTG000025a5@hotmail.com>

I was wondering if anyone has a list of all the Traveller(MT, TNE) material 
that GDW advertised, but did not release, also if anyone has any info as to 
how far along the material was before it was canned?

It would make for interesting reading.

Graham

This is the Universe ... Big isn't it?


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 01:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 00:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <memo.472174@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B8DBB173.39814%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
May I pass this around to other potentially interested parties, or do you 
want to keep it on the TML?

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 04:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Fri Apr 12 03:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] BITS website updated - Includes Travellercon.....
Message-ID: <B9A03CCD-4DFC-11D6-9B38-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support
http://www.bits.org.uk/

The BITS website has been updated to include details of this weekend's 
Traveller Con at Hebden Bridge, and the forthcoming Dudley Bug Ball, 
Fantasy Fair in Peterborough, Strange Days, GenCon UK and Dragonmeet 2002.
  Loads of crunchy goodness.

Have a look at the Traveller events that are on in the UK!!

Dom
BITS webmaster
webmaster@bits.org.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 05:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 04:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204121124.DWZ00277@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mexal, 
Yes you may pass it around.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 05:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 12 04:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RealLife(tm) Battledress, next chapter
References: <20020412005325.F414D27A9A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6CA44.BBDCD63E@earthlink.net>

Leonard Erickson posted:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > This is kinda fun...
> >
> > http://www.aro.army.mil/soldiernano/
> >
> >
> > David
>
> Gee, you sent this on March 3, 1987. Slow X-boat?

Must be those posts on inertial suppression. <grin>


Actually it was a messed-up loaner laptop from work.


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 06:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 05:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204120903310.10371-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>

On 12 Apr 2002 at 9:06, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> Perhaps it is just the Scandinavian socialist welfare state mindset, but I
> have also trouble seeing how modern guns relates to Traveller.

Well if you cast your eye over the list of guns in CT's Book 1 and 
their descriptions you'll note that aside from the laser rifle they're 
all weapons you could find in a gun store or on a battlefield in 1970.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:05:08 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
References: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost> <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Well if you cast your eye over the list of guns in CT's Book 1 and 
> their descriptions you'll note that aside from the laser rifle they're 
> all weapons you could find in a gun store or on a battlefield in 1970.

... which means that we already have all the information we need on those
guns in our game.

Please...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
 <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>
 <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412091256.01fc0e98@192.168.0.1>

At 03:06 PM 4/12/2002 +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > Well if you cast your eye over the list of guns in CT's Book 1 and
> > their descriptions you'll note that aside from the laser rifle they're
> > all weapons you could find in a gun store or on a battlefield in 1970.
>... which means that we already have all the information we need on those
>guns in our game.

Nah...it means it needs a big old gearhead update...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty 
clearly to protect political discourse.
But liberals reject the notion that free speech is therefore limited to 
political topics, even broadly defined.
True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself. But why leap 
to the conclusion that a broadly
worded constitutional freedom ("the right of the people to keep and bear 
arms") is narrowly limited by its
stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away? My New Republic 
colleague Mickey Kaus says that if
liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest 
of the Bill of Rights, there would be
law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory." -- Michael Kinsley 
Washington Post, January 8, 1990
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <OFC6A9CE02.C6420851-ON85256B99.004870A4@pheaa.org>





Mark Urbin asks
>
>Is this for a PBEM or a F2F?

>PBEM.  The F2F will be coming in May.

What is F2F?

also will the gm give us pregened chars?

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:45:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:45:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F195GoE1k8LN6FWe7Xl0000b978@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB78DC2.16250.66B1EA2@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002, at 0:35, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      The Ziru Sirka, while stagnant, is ahead of the Terrans in the tech 
> race.  Sure the Terrans can catch up, if they're given the time.  I just 
> can't quite understand why they were given the time.

The reasons are simple but conviluted.

1) In the ZS, the way to advance one's career was through the 
successful management of "prestige" sector (ie one that had "the 
eye" of the central government). For much of its history (at least 
until the 8th IW), the Solomani Rim was one of the backwaters and 
as such it was governed by a long succession of chair warmers,  
the disgraced and the occassional outright incompetant. Any 
administrator with drive and talent who ended up in the Rim spent 
most of their efforts getting out as quickly as possible

2) Initially the ZS didn't realise that there even was a war on. To the 
Vilani the 1st IW was simply a series of punitive raids against a 
nest of pirates (an analysis of the Terran's not too far from the truth 
at the time). If you think along the lines of British punitive raids 
against the tribes of the NW frontier (ie a very minor effort). This 
was indeed fortunate for the Terrans as even this minor effort nearly 
crushed them in the 1st War.

3) The ZS assumed that the Terran's technological growth would 
follow their own glacial pattern. They simply had no comprehension 
that the Terrans could match their techonology in just 33 years. 
The very concepts of "reverse engineering" and "synergetic 
exploitation" were totally alien to the Vilani (they simply could 
never understand that the Terrans would just copy their techology 
and then combine different elements in ways they have never even 
considered)

4) Likewise they measured their potential to expand in the terms of 
their own expansion. They did not forsee the Terran population 
explosion that was inevitable. Also, they could not know that the 
Terran's advanced biological sciences enabled them to support far 
greater population loads and exploit worlds that the Vilani had 
writen off as totally uninhabitable.
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:46:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:46:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F70SDx1kLwxTQTYkWSz00001108@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB78DC2.21937.66B1EA2@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002, at 15:31, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Yeah, I've got to think this over even more.  To my mind, minor race 
> rebellions aided and abetted by Terran infiltrators should be a big part of 
> the Interstellar Wars.  There would have been uprisings and sabotage a 
> sector or so "behind" the fighting front and the minor race allies providing 
> the lower-TL cannon fodder for the Alliance's offensives.

No, not really, at least not until right at the end (the Nth War). 
From the 1st to 8th War, the Terrans were simply facing the forces 
of a single ZS sector. If the ZS central fleet had been brought to 
bear at any stage in this period the Terrans would have been 
defeated (eventually, it wouldn't have been a cake walk though). 
But in the 9th War they faced the central fleet and anihilated it. 
This is the key factor in the collapse of the ZS.

Picture this, for thousands of years the ZS had stood as an 
immovable colossus, fixed and totally unchanging. It had the 
overwhelming faith of the vast majority of its citizens, sure things 
were not quite what they had once been and something was 
"wrong", but nobody could quite put their finger on it.

Sure their were some disaffected minor races and occassionally 
they did rebel, but they were always put in their place and if worst 
came to worst, there was still the Central Fleet. The Central Fleet 
was the very embodiment of the power and prestige of the ZS. 
Undefeated for thousands of year and with unquestioned power. As 
long as it existed any rebellion was doomed and the power of the 
ZS was undoubted.

In fact the empire was by this time a tettering house of cards. The 
total lack of change had lead to a slow build up of social tensions 
that were just waiting to break. All that was required was a crisis to 
spark the collapse. As long as nobody doubted the Empire it 
survived, but the moment serious doubt entered the equation, it just 
unravelled under the weight of thousands of years of social inertia.

And the spark was the Terran victory in the 9th War. Suddenly the 
most visible and tangible symbol of Vilani power was not just 
defeated by anihilated. The loyal citizens of the ZS went into a sort 
of state of shock and the oppressed minor races saw that the ZS 
could be defeated. This gives a sort of sudden explosion of the built 
up tensions. Sure the Empire still has the exact same resources 
as it had the day before the destruction of the Central Fleet, the 
infrastructure exists to build new ones and lots of other ships are 
still available. But the Empire has lost the faith of its people and it 
is doomed.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204121406.DXD05867@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"William Lane" asks
>What is F2F?

Face to Face
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Doug C.)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020412140824.40827.qmail@web13402.mail.yahoo.com>

I would be interested.  Could you end me ome more
info?
Doug
<<dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>>

--- "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
> Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance
> space 
> travel, etc.

______________________________________________________________________ 
Music, Movies, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:13:22 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

What do our lovely Ex Mil Travs think of this recent development?

Mikey

PS You just know that someone is going end up eating the moisture sachet at
one point. 

PPS Can someone please translate what 'acceptable' actually means in the
context of below. 

------------
April 12 2002

Military scientists in the United States have developed a new battlefield
weapon: the indestructible sandwich.

It can survive air drops and rough handling to stay fresh for up to three
years, even in tropical conditions.

Eventually, it is expected to follow freeze-dried coffee, dehydrated egg and
processed cheese from the battlefield on to supermarket shelves.

So far, only pepperoni and barbecued chicken varieties have been developed.
Soldiers who have tasted them say they are "acceptable".

Scientists are now working on indestructible pocket pizzas, cream-filled
bagels and peanut butter sandwiches.

The sandwiches are designed to stay fresh for up to three years at 26C, the
temperature of a warm summer's day, or six months at 38C. They are the
result of a long search by the US Army for rations that can be eaten on the
move.

The breakthrough was finding how to stop the filling from making the bread
soggy.

Scientists at the Soldier Systems Centre in Natick, Massachusetts, added
substances called humectants to pepperoni and chicken fillings.

Humectants not only prevent water from soaking into the bread but also limit
the amount of moisture available for bacterial growth, New Scientist
reports.

The sandwiches are then sealed in laminated plastic pouches that contain
sachets of chemicals to prevent the growth of yeast, mould and bacteria.

The standard American battlefield rations, called MRE, or Meal Ready to Eat,
already contain ingredients for making sandwiches. But they have to be
pasteurised and stored in separate pouches to prevent sogginess.

The Telegraph, London
-------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>; from jenry023@student.liu.se on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200
References: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost> <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost> <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020412081916.A31020@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> 
> Please...

Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their sex
lives.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.    --John Ciardi

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:24:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:24:10 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip three year old sandwich>

ObTrav:  Ever wondered what was in those Rations?  It's just 
a logistical footnote in most RPGs.  Yeah, I have 5 days of 
food.  But how hungry are you?  How well are they packaged?  
How long can people really subsist on them?  How much did you 
pay for them (characters will always go cheap on the rations -
- there's no incentive not to).

We should have three grades of rations, that come "ready to 
eat"

Grade C  Civilian, cheap.  5cr per meal.  Not guaranteed to 
stay together if you sit on the packages.  Gosh, were those 
scrambled eggs?  You won't be eating these after a few days, 
unless you're starving.

Grade B  Civilian, expensive or Military Surplus.  8 cr per 
meal.  OK to eat if you don't smell it or look at it.  Some 
of the meals, by chance, will be good.  Worth arguing over 
who gets them.  Or you can buy meals blind, open them up, and 
throw out the ones you don't like.  Morale will suffer if you 
have to eat these for more than a week.

Grade A Military current, Civilian Expedition Quality.  12 cr 
per meal.  Even comes with a warmer, wow.  You will be able 
to eat these for a few months, but you will recognize the 
same entrees again and again.


________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:56:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:56:33 2002
Subject: [TML] forced to unsubscribe for a bit
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412022408.01dde4e0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8DC437B.3989C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 11:26 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> My ISP is doing bad things with my mail server.  I seem to be able to send
> but not receive.  I haven't seen any new TML traffic for the last 24 hours
> or so.  To prevent the incoming-email equivalent of Three Mile Island, I am
> turning off my TML subscription for awhile.  I apologize to anyone who I
> was also on a thread that I was participating in.  Or maybe you're just as
> glad.  :->>
> 
> Back in a day or so.

I can always set you up with local email on my server.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
In-Reply-To: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:23:34AM -0400
References: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020412090107.A31185@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:23:34AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> We should have three grades of rations, that come "ready to 
> eat"

Shouldn't the grades go in reverse order, e.g. Military, cheap;
Civilian, cheap and finally Civilian, expensive?  IME civilian rations
tend to be _much_ tastier than MREs.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:02:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:02:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel
Message-ID: <004201c1e232$ea7b0ee0$519793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 1st. A sample will be =
appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while.=20



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is =
December 1st.=20
A sample will be appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <200204121508.DXF06733@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>Shouldn't the grades go in reverse order, e.g. Military, 
>cheap;

I've had civilian cheap - too nasty for words.  Don't ever 
make me eat those eggs again, or whatever that greenish 
yellow lumpy slime was.

I think I had three grades of civilian in there, so let's 
rearrange the list

Grade C   Civilian cheap/Ancient Military Surplus
Grade B2  Military Surplus
Grade B1  Civilian average
Grade A2  Current Military
Grade A1  Civilian Expedition Grade

The military food packs, and the Grade A1 come in durable 
packaging, and are shelf stable in extreme environments.
The military takes less preparation.
Grade A1 and A2 include heaters, condiments, etc.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3636@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

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COOL!!  Can't wait to see it :)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: MJ Dougherty [mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:01 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel


 
Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 1st. A sample will be appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. 
 
 
 
Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses


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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=433291515-12042002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>COOL!!&nbsp; Can't wait to see it :)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=433291515-12042002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Jesse</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> MJ Dougherty 
  [mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 12, 2002 8:01 
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> tml@travellercentral.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TML] Traveller 
  novel<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 
  1st. A sample will be appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. 
  </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, Quiklink 
  Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018630776.524.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> "Matthew Bond" says
> <snip laser power>
> 
> I think I did a laser calculation on tml-guntech
> which has a 6.8kJ laser in 0.7 milliseconds (not 
> microseconds) that is more than capable of penetrating 30cm 
> of flesh.  The assumption was made that I would be vaporizing 
> a column of water, in 0.7 milliseconds, and that the target 
> spot would be 1mm x 1mm.  We came up with 1000 times the 
> power required to do the minimum vaporization and it came
> out to 6.8 kJ.

Hm...of course, against a target moving at more than 1m/s relative to your aim
point, you're going to have noticeable wandering during the beam period, making
the laser relatively inefficient at snapshots and the like.  In addition,
energy requirement to boil body temperature water is roughly 2.5 kJ/gram and
you're hitting 0.24 grams of material, for a vaporization energy of about 600
joules.

(Tim: I think you gave vaporization energy in calories, not joules).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412081916.A31020@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020412171320.46876.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start
> mentioning their sex
> lives.

Yeah, but there are rarely more than 10-15 off-topic
total posts on one of those threads before someone
(usually politely) asks them to either drop it or move
off the tml.  The gun topics have gone on for much
longer than 10-15 posts and lost topic either Monday
or Tuesday.  Suggestions:

1.  Move the discussion to private e-mail
2.  Move the discussion to tml-guntech
3.  Move the discussion to tml-chat
4.  Move the discussion to a gearhead list
5.  Bring it back to topic by relating to existing
combat rules or by designing new combat rules.
6.  Drop it altogether.

But please, don't keep it here without retaining game
relevance.  Discussions about which gun you prefer is
fine, but it is not on topic.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204121730.DXL01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>
>Hm...of course, against a target moving at more than 1m/s 
>relative to your aim point, you're going to have noticeable 
>wandering during the beam period, making
>the laser relatively inefficient at snapshots and the like.  
>In addition,
>energy requirement to boil body temperature water is roughly 
>2.5 kJ/gram and
>you're hitting 0.24 grams of material, for a vaporization 
>energy of about 600
>joules.
>

The calculation is over on tml-guntech. It is based on 
calculations done by the Air Force to determine required 
fluence levels to damage or vaporize a target. In their case, 
they were targeting mild steel.  I am targeting water. I 
first calculated the amount of material to be vaporized. I 
then assumed that it would take 1000 times that amount of 
energy, because of movement, armor, etc.  You may notice, 
however, that the reflectivity of mild unpolished steel is 
around 90% for a 1.3 nm wavelength beam.  The human body, 
OTOH, is around 10%.  So if you're not armored, my 1000 
factor is very, very conservative.  Even if we don't have an 
accurate model of penetration, I am fairly confident that 
raising the required energy by a factor of 1000 should get us 
some results other than a surface explosion.

Since we're using an overtone DF laser at 1.3nm, the 
atmosphere (according to published data) is not going to 
absorb any relevant percentage of the beam.

I also picked a very small spot size 1 mm x 1 mm.  If we make 
the spot size larger, say 1 cm x 1 cm, the power requirements 
really rise.

I have seen a continuous beam of similar spot size operating 
at a much lower power level.  It slices through 2 meters of 
layered fabric, cutting cloth for dresses.  The effect is 
nearly instantaneous.  Much faster than a saw or knife blade 
would ever be on a stack like that.  I was warned that if a 
human was ever inside the unit when it was operating, they 
would be cut instantly into the pattern.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <E16w5Hj-00044A-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

=20
> Face to Face

Where at?

Beth



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204121730.DXL01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018634628.8505.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> The calculation is over on tml-guntech.

Aha.  I found your error.  To quote:

>We want a wound channel approximately 1 mm x 1 mm, completely through the
theoretical 30 cm thick body that Tod uses for his calculations.

>The spot size will be 1mm x 1mm.

>This is 0.003 cc of water.

0.1 cm x 0.1cm x 30 cm = 0.3 cc.  You have a factor of 100 error.  Note that
your total energy requirement may still be credible, since you used a factor of
1,000 inefficiency.  I've seen pulsed laser calculations that would allow
blowthrough on as little as one kilojoule.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:10:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:10:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204121809.DXL07040@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Beth" asks
>> Face to Face
>
>Where at?
>
germantown, maryland
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204121814.DXL07610@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony says Aha
<snip>

ObTrav: I like a laser rifle from the aesthetic, CT 
perspective.  I have this view of "the spacers", people who 
come from the stars to have adventures on some remote 
planet.  And it isn't "practical" or "realistic".  I almost 
think that the whole plasma weapon thing is unnecessary.

Still, I like those ray guns in "Mars Attacks".  Give me one 
of those, thank you. Cool sound, fantastic effect.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:49:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:49:09 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <3CB72B6D.1443A6E7@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] The "gun" debate
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>> 
>> Please...
>
> Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> sex lives.

Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
subscribe via the digest. 

Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT 
political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to 
keep the list Traveller focused.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB72B6D.1443A6E7@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412150348.00b8d080@urbin.net>

At 01:46 PM 4/12/02 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> > From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> >> Please...
> > Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> > sex lives.
>Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
>subscribe via the digest.
>Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
>mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT
>political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to
>keep the list Traveller focused.

Hmmm...I haven't noticed the thread discussing the politics of ownership,
just the mechanics of the firearms and the wounds analysis.

It is starting to drift to the guntech list though.

Actually a good on topic thread on snub pistols has been going on there too.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Unpublished Material Question
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F94snwO5UGXtTG000025a5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEFPDKAA.tml@downport.com>

There wasn't much Traveller bottled up in GDW, and there do not seem to have
been a lot of things that were started and then dropped when they were close
to publication. I'm sure there were any number of ideas that were scrapped
because they were good enough :)

On the other hand, several of the licensees did die with good stuff in the
pipeline. Gamelords, Ltd. had several good items. one was Grand Survey,
which they sold to DGP. A couple of others were published recently by
Cargonaut Press. Paranoia Press had one or two items in the pipeline. DGP
had several when they went under, and at least one item, Lords of Thunder,
was put out as an article instead of a book.

For my money, some of the best stuff that has never seen wide circulation is
in some of the old fanzines; Between Worlds, Imperium Staple, Working
Passage, Parasec, Alien Star, Third Imperium, and many more. I'd like to see
some of those published on the web as Security Leak has been. The fanzines
were the WWW of their day. If anyone knows how to get in touch with
publishers of these old fanzines, let me know and I will work on web
publication.
_____________________________________

       http://www.downport.com
       The Traveller Web Portal
       webmaster@downport.com

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Graham Donald

I was wondering if anyone has a list of all the Traveller(MT, TNE) material
that GDW advertised, but did not release, also if anyone has any info as to
how far along the material was before it was canned?

It would make for interesting reading.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel
In-Reply-To: <004201c1e232$ea7b0ee0$519793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <004201c1e232$ea7b0ee0$519793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <200204121530190649.99C963A7@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 4/12/2002 at 4:00 PM MJ Dougherty wrote:

>Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 1st. A sample will be=
 appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. 
>

The Diaspora Phoenix sample has been posted and is available at:

http://www.TravellerRPG.com/TNE/DiasporaPhoenix.html

Hunter



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:57:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:57:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com>

>"Beth" asks
> >> Face to Face
> >
> >Where at?
> >
>germantown, maryland

This *is* the germantown near DC and not the one on the Eastern Shore, 
right?



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204122000.DXP05028@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Yes, Germantown, Maryland, that armpit of suburbia.  One of 
the largest concentrations of people in Maryland.

Home of the Department of Energy, etc.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:01:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:01:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Ack so close and yet so far.
ken
VA beach

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew MacLintock" <a_maclintock@hotmail.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Send more humans


> >"Beth" asks
> > >> Face to Face
> > >
> > >Where at?
> > >
> >germantown, maryland
> 
> This *is* the germantown near DC and not the one on the Eastern Shore, 
> right?
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Mac
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
> http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204121814.DXL07610@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018641727.2102.ajackson@ping>

Incidentally, where does the idea of 1.3nm X-rays penetrating atmosphere come
from?  I can't find any immediate references, and was under the general
impression that beyond some windows in the near UV the atmosphere basically
absorbs everything.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204122010.DXP06343@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>
>Incidentally, where does the idea of 1.3nm X-rays 
>penetrating atmosphere come from?  I can't find any 
>immediate references, and was under the general
>impression that beyond some windows in the near UV the 
>atmosphere basically absorbs everything.
>_______________________________________________

My mistake - it's 1.3 microns.  The document is Laser Options 
For National Missile Defense, an Air Force document.  
Apparently, 1.3 microns will allow a space based laser to 
target ground targets - there are more uses for the SBL than 
just shooting missiles.  It will be an effective anti-
aircraft weapon, and other documents indicate it will be 
useful at targeting individuals.

With the fluence they plan on using, and the beam time (4 
seconds), it looks like they could literally smoke you down 
to the bones with something like that.

They also indicate in related documents that the same mirror 
that would be used to strike ground targets would be able to 
spot and aim.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <20020412.131217.-193605.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:08:54 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> Grade C   Civilian cheap/Ancient Military Surplus
> Grade B2  Military Surplus
> Grade B1  Civilian average
> Grade A2  Current Military
> Grade A1  Civilian Expedition Grade

Ah the lucky service men/women of today are blessed with grade A food,
HA!

Back in 1972 - 1975 all I ever saw, ate, and enjoyed, HA, were C Rations
packed in 1953!!!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The great gun discussion
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020412135143.009f0220@mail.attbi.com>

	Ok.  I have collected firearms all my life, hunted all my life, reloaded 
ammo all my life.  Firearms are one of main hobbies, and so is 
Traveller.  The intersection of the two is interesting and appropriate, 
accassionally.  But, seriously, guys, {and you know who you are) not 
everone is interested in our firearms hobby, or is even allowed to have a 
firearms hobby.  Or allowed to or want to hunt.  I would love to sit down 
and bullshit for hours about guns, hunting, etc, but let's stop inflicting 
this subject on innocent bystanders.
	I hope I haven't offended anyone, because I really like everyone on this 
list, but if I have please feel free to flame me at d.gyles@attbi.net.
	Ok, back to lurking, now.
	P.S. You hunt with guns!! What wimps!! Real men use a bow!!!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
In-Reply-To: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB7E982.25362.4543EE@localhost>

On 12 Apr 2002 at 10:23, John T. Kwon wrote:

> <snip three year old sandwich>
> 
> ObTrav:  Ever wondered what was in those Rations?  It's just 
> a logistical footnote in most RPGs.  Yeah, I have 5 days of 
> food.  But how hungry are you?  How well are they packaged?  
> How long can people really subsist on them?  How much did you 
> pay for them (characters will always go cheap on the rations -
> - there's no incentive not to).

Not in my games they don't. Or not often, and very seldom after the 
ones that do have been given descriptions of what it's like to eat 
jellied eels, pickled goose eggs and candied locusts (and I mean the 
insects, not the fruit). My preference is to time this so that the 
players are eating when the description of their character's meal is 
given. Thyis doesn't work on some people, as they've eaten this sort of 
thing or 'worse', but they're seldom the ones being cheap, strangely 
enough.
 
> Grade B  Civilian, expensive or Military Surplus.  8 cr per 
> meal.  OK to eat if you don't smell it or look at it.  Some 
> of the meals, by chance, will be good.  Worth arguing over 
> who gets them.  Or you can buy meals blind, open them up, and 
> throw out the ones you don't like.  Morale will suffer if you 
> have to eat these for more than a week.

Sounds like a fussy eater to me. This looks like a fairly good 
description of our rations and I can't say that there was ever a 
significant drop in morale over a 2 week exercise period. OTOH the 
boost in morale after even only a couple of days if a fresh hot meal is 
shipped/trucked/flown in is amazing.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412081916.A31020@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204122324460.17035-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> > Please...
> 
> Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their sex
> lives.

Well, yes, but this still is _Traveller_ mailing list. Sex lives also a
no-no, please. 

The point of the list kind of gets lost, if I have to delete 80% of the
posts as off-topic. B-/

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a
 starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411151634.0209ac08@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:52 PM 4/10/2002, Texas Redshift wrote:
>Starship Insurance - Theft and Casualty - Claims

Good post.  A couple of points to think about: one of them being the 
general piracy scenario (but that's not one I want to go into now).  The 
other being the definition of when the ship becomes salvage (versus the 
recovery of stolen property).  Hopefully someone with better knowledge of 
maritime law can chime in here, but the rule of thumb that I've used IMTU 
goes as follows:

If the ship was stolen, and later recovered in any sort of operable 
condition, it's stolen property and not salvage, and legally belongs to 
whomever is the owner.  If someone assists in recovering the ship for the 
owners, there is generally some type of reward involved; most larger ship 
owners and insurers make sure that their reward policies are well-known, 
since this helps in recovering stolen ships.

A stolen ship should become salvage only after a reasonably long period of 
time (given the lifetimes of Traveller starships).  A stolen ship may also 
become eligible for salvage if the owner formally files papers to abandon 
the ship.  Companies (particularly insurers) may do this if it has tax 
advantages.  An insurance company with a large portfolio of stolen ships 
may choose to take the write-off and tax benefit of abandonment rather than 
hold the ships until they become salvage automatically.

The company would have to make a decision about the chance of recovering 
the ship (and it's expected value if recovered) versus the value of the tax 
shelter in writing the ship off.  This could be a useful adventure hook; 
freelance salvage companies probably scan the list of abandoned ships as 
they are published, because those ships are now "fair game" and any 
proceeds no longer have to be shared with the insurance company.  The list 
is probably just that - but a salvage company with good research 
connections may occasionally be able to recover such a ship where the owner 
could or would not.

If the ship was abandoned due to any sort of disaster or accident which 
made it inoperable, uninhabitable and/or a hazard to navigation, then it 
becomes salvage.  If it is ever recovered (for parts or to be repaired and 
returned to service) it would become (after a bit if paperwork) the legal 
property of whomever salvaged it.

This leads to some interesting adventure hooks: if at all possible without 
undue hazard to life, an agent of the ship owner (generally the 
owner-aboard, captain, or crew) or the insurer (generally an agent or 
freelancer hired for the purpose) must remain aboard a damaged ship so that 
it does not become salvage.  This could involve the PCs in many ways - for 
example, a ship owner or insurance company could hire them to spend some 
time aboard a damaged and otherwise abandoned ship.  They'd start out in 
vacc suits, and probably would want to seal and re-pressurize some 
compartment so they would have a place to un-suit during their stay.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:04:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:04:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204122010.DXP06343@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018645406.4851.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> My mistake - it's 1.3 microns.

Ok, that's more familiar, that's actually near IR.

Oh, if you want a really insane tech option (which real people are vaguely
considering), Hf-178m2 lasers make a neat gamma ray laser option which people
are really studying.  Some benefits:

2.6 MeV photons don't have remotely interesting diffraction problems at normal
combat ranges.  a 1mm lens, for a 1mm beam, retains basically full focal
ability out to 100 km.

Gamma rays, due to high penetration (90% reduction in about an inch of steel)
can efficiently deposit energy well below the normal surface layers, thus
significantly improving the ability to fire through both atmosphere and armor. 
A 10 kilojoule beam should be plenty to kill through quite a bit of armor.

Hf-178m2 stores a lot of energy -- on the order of a gigajoule per gram -- thus
solving a lot of the energy storage problems.  It would need some power input
to trigger lasing, but probably considerably less than the output.

Based on how x-ray lenses are designed (low incidence angle deflection), a
gamma ray lens would probably be a thin metal-walled tube, thus actually
resembling a gun, rather than resembling a flashlight.

Disadvantages: Hf-178m2 is radioactive, half-life 31 years.  Assuming you need
a stored energy of 10 megajoules, carrying an unshielded power source next to
your skin for a month would expose you to a mean radiation dose of about 10,000
rads.  Using real materials, I'd want to wrap it in around 2 cm of iridium,
which would add more than a kilogram to the weight of the weapon.  With
Traveller materials, just wrap it in bonded superdense (in fact, the barrel is
probably bonded SD as well); assuming bonded SD is 14x as good radiation
shielding as steel, half a centimeter is enough shielding.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204122116.DXS00114@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
<snip radioactive death>

ObTrav:  I was wondering how many rads someone has to take to 
be a "prompt" casualty (and probably a fatality, pretty 
soon).  Yes, there are some fairly generic rules (see Gurps: 
Space or Ultra-Tech I'm not sure).  I'd be interested in some 
house rules, because radioactivity has got to occur around 
fusion powerplants, in space, etc.  It's a Traveller kind of 
thing.

I keep hearing around 20,000 rads, but I've also heard that 
someone cooked like that can linger for a day or so.  There 
were some accidents with the Therac-25 machine where people 
were accidentally given the maximum output of the machine 
because of software errors.  Some of the doses were in that 
range.

Also, it's not clear how they calculate dosage.  In the 
accident for the Therac, they describe radiation through a 
very small cross-section of the body, but also describe a 
calculated "whole-body" dose.

If shielding worked that well per your gadget, then it would 
be possible to build a small short range weapon that 
consisted of shielding, a source that could produce a 20,000 
rad/sec emission, and a shutter.

I don't think that there's a handwave for "my body is dead 
and I don't know it yet".
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204122116.DXS00114@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018646710.9067.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> Anthony Jackson says
> <snip radioactive death>
> 
> ObTrav:  I was wondering how many rads someone has to take to 
> be a "prompt" casualty (and probably a fatality, pretty 
> soon).  Yes, there are some fairly generic rules (see Gurps: 
> Space or Ultra-Tech I'm not sure).  I'd be interested in some 
> house rules, because radioactivity has got to occur around 
> fusion powerplants, in space, etc.  It's a Traveller kind of 
> thing.

Well, in the case of the weapon described, it wouldn't be a radiation kill,
it's just going to vaporize all the material in a 1mm channel through the body,
producing rather bullet-like effects.

The effects of high doses of radiation on humans are not well studied due to a
lack of examples, but 20,000 rads is reasonable for immediate incapacitation.

> If shielding worked that well per your gadget, then it would 
> be possible to build a small short range weapon that 
> consisted of shielding, a source that could produce a 20,000 
> rad/sec emission, and a shutter.

Well, radiation sprayers are the type of weapon that tends to get banned by
international convention, but as a short range weapon (100 meters or less)
radiation weapons are rather simple.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <200204122133.DXT01374@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson talks about radioactivity
<snip>

I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone 
can help out and pony up their house rules).

Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-
T) powerplant's energy output will be in the form of 
neutrons.  

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
References: <ML-2.3.1018646710.9067.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CB75306.59A09CC@premier.net>


Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> John T. Kwon writes:
> > Anthony Jackson says
> > <snip radioactive death>
> >
> > ObTrav:  I was wondering how many rads someone has to take to
> > be a "prompt" casualty (and probably a fatality, pretty
> > soon).  Yes, there are some fairly generic rules (see Gurps:
> > Space or Ultra-Tech I'm not sure).  I'd be interested in some
> > house rules, because radioactivity has got to occur around
> > fusion powerplants, in space, etc.  It's a Traveller kind of
> > thing.
> 
> Well, in the case of the weapon described, it wouldn't be a radiation kill,
> it's just going to vaporize all the material in a 1mm channel through the body,
> producing rather bullet-like effects.
> 
> The effects of high doses of radiation on humans are not well studied due to a
> lack of examples, but 20,000 rads is reasonable for immediate incapacitation.

According to FM 25-51, Battalion Task Force Nuclear Training, a dose of
8,000-18,000 rad is projected to cause the hapless victim to "become
completely and permanently incapacitated for performing physical tasks
within 5 minutes."  For doses over 18,000 rad, replace the word
"physical" with "any." 

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <200204122133.DXT01374@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018648147.2754.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone 
> can help out and pony up their house rules).
> 
> Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-
> T) powerplant's energy output will be in the form of 
> neutrons.  

Which is an excellent reason to avoid using D-T reactors, if anything else can
be made to work.  D-He3 can be optimized to only a few percent neutrons (caused
by incidental D-D reactions in the fuel).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 16:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 12 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fort Knox-Radcliff - Looking for Players
Message-ID: <184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a@aol.com>

--part1_184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I'm a long time traveller fan that has settled in the Radcliff/Fort Knox 
area. Looking for any fellow Traveller Players. I am experienced with 
Classic, MegaTraveller, T4, and GURPS versions of our favorite game. Contact 
me if your in the Fort Knox area. 

--part1_184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>I'm a long time traveller fan that has settled in the Radcliff/Fort Knox area. Looking for any fellow Traveller Players. I am experienced with Classic, MegaTraveller, T4, and GURPS versions of our favorite game. Contact me if your in the Fort Knox area. </FONT></HTML>

--part1_184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] eine Frage fur die deutschsprechenden Leute des TMLs
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

I need help translating a little bit of military radio talk from English or
German.  If you would like to help, please email me off list.

Vielen Dank,

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEHACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>

[Excellent comparison of 1600-1900 China and ca. 2400 Ziru Sirka deleted.]

>
>     That's part of my take on the whole problem.  The Terran Confederation
>victory over the Ziru Sirka is more along the lines of Cortez versus the
>Aztecs; i.e lots of native allies, and most decidely not a case of "Terra
>Uber Alles."

Mr. Whipsnade*:

You and Mr. Laning and I are in general agreement on this point.  Solomani,
whether Imperial or Confederate, suppress the truth of Vegan, Geonee,
Azhanti, what-have-you revolts that finally toppled the Ziru Sirka.

--Glenn

*An easy typographical error to make is Whipsnake, which is something else
again, I suppose.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8dd1a45b944@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:02 PM +1200 4/11/02, Frank Pitt wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote :
>
>>  But we are talking about security measure that are
>>  intrusive enough that the are a hassle to the day
>>  to day operation of a ship.
>
>Yes.
>
>Just as being searched for screwdrivers and penknives is
>currently a hassle in the day to day operation of an airline.
>
>>  Some people are going to know about them.
>
>Everyone will be _told_ about them. They won't be secret.

And if you can make that kind of link (we are preventing something 
that has been used to cause great loss of life), then you have a 
justification for the security measures.  But invoking intrusive 
insurance companies alone won't do it.

>
>>  Unless they are important  enough to make a _significant_
>change in costs,
>>  another company will be able to draw at least some customers
>away buy not
>>  having such intrusive requirements.
>
>The requirements are set by the SPA and the local civilian
>government, not the insurance company, as I already said :

It doesn't matter who is setting the requirements.  One still has to 
show they are justified economically.  (Though, in fact, the Imperium 
is very hands off and I _don't_ see the requirement comming here.  I 
_would_ be the insurance company, if it was justified).

>
>>  >The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
>>  >required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
>>  >may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
>>  >starport will do it (for important safety and
>>  >financial reasons,would you want an unwarranted vehicle
>>  >approaching an extremely expensve space station?), there won't
>>  >be any real choice except for the captains to take the risk
>>  >of not doing it and not go to the better starports
>>
>>  The presumption is that every insurance company will have such
>>  requirements.
>
>No, the presumption is that no insurance company will accept
>liability for an illegal ship.
>
>Because of that, if the ship owners wish to be able to recover
>the cost of their starship in the event of an accident, they will
>attempt to ensure their ship is legal at all times.

Well, the body doing the requirement, as I said above, doesn't change 
the issue of whether the requirement is needed.

>Think about the difference in damage potential between a 747 and
>a subsidized merchant.
>Then think about the greater effect that damage will have on an
>orbital starport.
>
>Security on a starship will be required to be tight to prevent
>"passengers" from taking control of the starship and flying it
>into the starport, or other targets of oppurtunity.

And the question is whether
a) Is this likely (just because some sort of terrorist act is 
possible doesn't mean that someone is trying to do it.  We didn't 
protect against the 9/11 incident because, in past, such an act 
simply wasn't likely enough.  The failure was to recognize that rise 
of those willing and able to do such a thing).  There are still 
things out there were someone could cause loss of life that we don't 
protect against.
b) What are the measures necessary to achieve this security.

Now I wasn't following the thread so I don't know what has been 
discussed on either count.  I just wanted to point out that you can't 
assume that an insurance company, or other agency, would mandate any 
security measure you can think of regardless of the need.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>

>In fact, hunters and cops seem to take "stopping power" much more seriously
than the military.

I wouldn't say "more seriously;" it's just that they have different
objectives.  The military is happy to wound an enemy soldier and take him
plus one or more other combatants out of the fight as they try to save the
one who got hit.  Hunters want to bring the animal down right away so they
don't have to chase it.  Police are often trying to protect themselves and
innocent people, so once they decide to shoot, they don't want the suspect
to get back up, or not fall at all.

Interestingly, the Colt .45 Model 1911 was designed to give American
soldiers enough stopping power to knock down an oncoming Philippino
guerilla.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
Message-ID: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1E287.5BD606E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term =
"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?

The origin is bugging me....

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1E287.5BD606E0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can anyone suggest where they first saw =
reference=20
to the Term "Ortillery" for orbital artillery?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The origin is bugging=20
me....</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1E287.5BD606E0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com> <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3CB77AE9.17CE776@mindspring.com>

Joseph Elric Smith wrote:

> Ack so close and yet so far.
> ken
> VA beach

Pungo?



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com> <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net> <3CB77AE9.17CE776@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <010301c1e282$a2382960$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Virginia Beach VA
Ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Send more humans


> Joseph Elric Smith wrote:
> 
> > Ack so close and yet so far.
> > ken
> > VA beach
> 
> Pungo?
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
>                                -Steve Martin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
References: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CB77CAC.A913834@mindspring.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> "Ortillery" for orbital artillery? The origin is bugging me....

Right here on the TML a few months back. I guess that doesn't help much.

Obtrav: Things like this probably happen with Xmail all the time.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 19:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 12 18:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com> <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net> <3CB77AE9.17CE776@mindspring.com> <010301c1e282$a2382960$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3CB781F2.33EEA6C8@mindspring.com>

Joseph Elric Smith wrote:

> Virginia Beach VA
> Ken
>
> Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [TML] Send more humans
>
> > Joseph Elric Smith wrote:
> >
> > > Ack so close and yet so far.
> > > ken
> > > VA beach
> >
> > Pungo?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> > www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> > I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
> >                                -Steve Martin
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Yes, I'm in Pungo borough. You?


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 19:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri Apr 12 18:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <3cb77b2c.15566185@post.demon.co.uk>

Richard Huxton <red@archonet.com> writes:

>I had a sudden vision of a jump-capable planet working its way around =
the=20
>galaxy sucking gas giants dry between jumps.

Using HG2, rather than Book 2.  Afraid I missed the price target
slightly, but cost overruns are inevitable on a project of this scope.
;-)

Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =20

MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
78,886,000,000,000,000,000 tons
Crew=3D394,428,000,000,000,000
TL=3D13

Passengers=3D0 Low=3D0 Cargo=3D1,498,825,000,000,000,000 tons
=46uel=3D34,710,000,000,000,000,000 EP=3D(lots) Agility=3D0 Marines=3D0

I didn't fit armament, but there's lots of spare cargo space to play
with.  This ship can also be supplied with a fuel shuttle which,
coincidentally enough, looks rather like a moon....

The crew needed for the ship is a little steep, since it needs about
65 million times the population of present-day Terra.  Also, my
geometry is extremely rusty, but I'm right in thinking that 4/3 pi r^3
is the formula for volume of a sphere, aren't I?  (And that Earth's
radius is 6,412,000m).

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018630776.524.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <ML-2.3.1018630776.524.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020413123016.B12650@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> (Tim: I think you gave vaporization energy in calories, not joules).

Ick!  No, I just mistyped 2.3e5 instead of 2.3e6 joules per kilogram
for latent heat of vaporization :/ Of course, that means that the
original 6.8kJ calculation was even further off.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chem Det Missiles
References: <20020410050411.0205627AA5@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB798C4.4E90DEB3@earthlink.net>

Question for the list:

Has anyone developed any design rules for chem-det missiles
in a rulesset other than GURPS?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018641727.2102.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204121814.DXL07610@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <ML-2.3.1018641727.2102.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020413123527.C12650@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Incidentally, where does the idea of 1.3nm X-rays penetrating
> atmosphere come from?

I expect it's a typo for 1.3 um.  Of course, you need handwave
focussing to get a 1mm spot size with such a wavelength in a
pistol-sized weapon past 20 metres or so, but that's not problem for
Traveller.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB75306.59A09CC@premier.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1018646710.9067.ajackson@ping> <3CB75306.59A09CC@premier.net>
Message-ID: <20020413124722.D12650@freeman.little-possums.net>

John Groth wrote:
> According to FM 25-51, Battalion Task Force Nuclear Training, a dose
> of 8,000-18,000 rad is projected to cause the hapless victim to
> "become completely and permanently incapacitated for performing
> physical tasks within 5 minutes."

Yep.  Good if you want to make sure someone dies rather soon, but not
as good if they're actively shooting at you *right now*.

Note: For gamma rays, a whole-body dose of 18000 rads works out to an
absorbed energy of about 15 kJ.  I reckon absorbing 15 kJ of laser or
kinetic energy would "completely and permanently incapacitate" the
victim pretty quickly too.

A nuclear damper in the area is probably going to nullify a radiation
weapon based on decay of radioactive isotopes.  Not that I'm saying
that's the only way to build a radiation weapon, of course, but
something to be aware of.  If set to accelerate decay, it might even
melt down the weapon with disastrous consequences to the wielder.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 21:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Doug C.)
Date: Fri Apr 12 20:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
References: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <3CB77CAC.A913834@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB7A9FD.3BD6AF65@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hmmm,
Seems to me there is a ref in 'The Spinward Marches Campaign'
Douglas

alan spik wrote:

> MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> > Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> > "Ortillery" for orbital artillery? The origin is bugging me....
>
> Right here on the TML a few months back. I guess that doesn't help much.
>
> Obtrav: Things like this probably happen with Xmail all the time.
>
> --
> Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
>                                -Steve Martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 21:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 20:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
Message-ID: <200204130346.DYF01090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ortillery?

I saw it in Dirtside, a game to go with Full Thrust.

But I may have seen it in an SF novel before.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 22:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Fri Apr 12 21:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413085805.02756ec8@pop3.norton.antivirus>

At 01:05 AM 13/04/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term "Ortillery" 
>for orbital artillery?
>
>The origin is bugging me....

First I saw of it was in 'GT-Ground Forces'.
Hated it at first, but the term has grown on me.

Andrei Nikulinsky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 22:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Fri Apr 12 21:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001201c1e2a4$8e34e670$2f7de40c@loki>

Maray Rijam to some and Arkers Ayerin to others:

has been off the list for a few days and close to a grand in messages
but he already sees some good stuff. He'll have Mark Ayers respond to
the best of 'em as soon as he gets caught up. Now if the damn exorcist
could get Mosiac Tapestry and Eslaan Marakyr and Ark Ramsey and James
Richard Walker III and Farquhar McPhar and a few more alter egoes to
share in the duties. Hmmm?

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 23:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 12 22:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <F209IlOAPE3EzbwJp8k00003548@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone
can help out and pony up their house rules)."

     "Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-T) 
powerplant's energy output will be in the form of neutrons."


Mr. Kwon,

     This one's sort in my baliwick, the shielding bits that is.  I won't 
even attempt to guess-timate the energy range fusion-produced neutrons will 
have, but I'll assume (gulp) they won't be too far off from fission 
generated ones.
     The short story is that you'll need some heavy shielding, but not a bad 
as the equivalent in gamma radiation will require.  The shielding you choose 
should have LOTS of hydrogen in it as hydrogen atoms will slow, reflect, and 
eventually stop neutrons better than anything else.
     One nasty side effect of neutron radiation will be the eventual 
deterioration of the materials your power plant is made of.(The early 
embrittlement of fission reactor vessels due to neutron bombardment is the 
reason some plants in the US have been decommisioned ahead of schedule.)  
Annual maintenance might involve detection and replacement of components 
effected by neutron exposure.
     GURPS Compedium II has servicable rad rules.  IIRC, there are some MT 
rules in a DGP Digest issue that deal with exposure rather exhaustively.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 23:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri Apr 12 22:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
In-Reply-To: <3CB7A9FD.3BD6AF65@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEEOEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

> MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> > Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> > "Ortillery" for orbital artillery? The origin is bugging me....
>
> Right here on the TML a few months back. I guess that doesn't help much.
>
> Obtrav: Things like this probably happen with Xmail all the time.
-----------
There was a description in the JTAS Issue number 9 page 21 This is the issue
which first described the organisation of the Duke of Reginas Huscarles. The
unit had  an attached ortillery squadron consisting of 3 system defence
boats. The unit at this time also had a squadron of 10 50dt single place
fighters and 2 50dt dual place fighters in the units flight HQ

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 23:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 22:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <200204130523.DYJ00139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" says
>
>     The short story is that you'll need some heavy 
>shielding, but not a bad as the equivalent in gamma 
>radiation will require.  The shielding you choose 
>should have LOTS of hydrogen in it as hydrogen atoms will 
>slow, reflect, and eventually stop neutrons better than 
>anything else.

Some of the neutrons need to be captured and converted to 
thermal energy - probably the liquid lithium blanket we 
always hear about.  After that, polyethylene, and lots of it.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 00:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (nellkyn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 23:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
References: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <006001c1e2b7$f0047100$81e868d5@k5k9u6>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1E2C0.20DF7C40
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

First edition of the Dirtside wargames rules by Ground Zero Games. Sorry =
I don't know what year they were published but it was prior to 1989, if =
my memory serves me correctly. Try contacting GZG directly as Jon =
Tuffley may be able to let you know where he first heard the term. =
Failing that, the GZG Mailing list may be able to help.

Off to TravCon in 15 minutes. See you there if you're coming.

Neil
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: MJ Dougherty=20
  To: tml@travellercentral.com=20
  Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 1:05 AM
  Subject: [TML] Ortillery


  Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term =
"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
  =20
  The origin is bugging me....

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1E2C0.20DF7C40
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>First edition of the Dirtside wargames =
rules by=20
Ground Zero Games. Sorry I don't know what year they were published but =
it was=20
prior to 1989, if my memory serves me correctly. Try contacting GZG =
directly as=20
Jon Tuffley may be able to let you know where he first heard the term. =
Failing=20
that, the GZG Mailing list may be able to help.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Off to TravCon in 15 minutes. See you =
there if=20
you're coming.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Neil</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk" =
title=3Dmartinjd@globalnet.co.uk>MJ=20
  Dougherty</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:tml@travellercentral.com"=20
  title=3Dtml@travellercentral.com>tml@travellercentral.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, April 13, 2002 =
1:05=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [TML] Ortillery</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can anyone suggest where they first =
saw reference=20
  to the Term "Ortillery" for orbital artillery?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The origin is bugging=20
me....</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1E2C0.20DF7C40--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 01:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Sat Apr 13 00:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [Request] Black War Ships, statistics/history
Message-ID: <LAW2-F143KWtXgzyKyF00003ac6@hotmail.com>

Hi,

I'm interested in if possible/legal obtaining a copy of the article in 
Challenge 60, which covered the history/stats of the "Black War" ships 
produced in the lead up to the collapse. Either a .txt or .pdf file is 
acceptable.

Graham

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 02:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 01:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204110412.g3B4CU601389@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20412.221249.4a6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard writes:
>> The problem is, different things depend on *different* ratios. 
>> 
>> Some depend on things like the charge to mass ratio of particles.
>> Others depend on things like the ratios of the *squares* of of things.
>> And some are things like square roots. Or weirder ratios. 
>> 
>> You *can't* make them all match. 
>
> Even if all four fundamental forces & inertia (i.e. apparent
> mass) drop simultaneously by the same factor? Wouldn't then
> the ratios between these values (and those other values based
> on them) all stay the same? -Jim

As an example, a lot of things depend on the fine structure constant.
Which contains things like the *square* of the charge of the electron.

Which means that if you halve the value of the charge, the value of the
fine structure constant drops to one-quarter.

So the ratios of stuff that depend on the value of things drops to 1/2,
but stuff that depends on the *square* of the values drops to 1/4.
Making one set of properties *twice* as big relative to the other.

There are other things that depend on stuff like the 3/2 power of
various forces...

So, no, you can't adjust the properties at all without making
*something* different. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 02:06:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 01:06:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20412.223302.9s3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Apart from that, your goal is to have the behaviour of atoms (and more
>> complex systems) behave in the same way as before inertial
>> suppression, correct?  This requires more than just changing the
>> strength of forces.
>
> The goal was to theoretically examine inertial suppression as a
> means for making high accelleration (say anywhere from 50g to 1000g)
> doable for a STL-based RPG, so that we'd be able to have speedy
> interstellar travel from a subjective viewpoint (a few days to a few
> weeks from the viewpoint of the crew, although it would be years
> or even decades from the viewpoint of those not taking the trip).
>
> In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
> both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
> physics as we know it, and both of you know a lot more about
> physics than I do, so it seems that I'm going to have to relent
> and give up on this idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes
> infeasible, and we're left with FTL (which has already been done
> to death). Ah well... -Jim

The thing is, you are stuck on the idea of inertial suppression. It's
possible to compensate for acceleration forces, *without* messing with
inertia.

If you can generate artificial gravity of some sort, then you can
neutralize acceleration up to the point where the acceleration equals
the max strength of the artifical gravity. 

Likewise, if your drive uses forces similar to gravity, in that they
act evenly on all particles composing the ship, there won't be any
*apparent* acceleration. 

What causes trouble with acceleration is the fact that it's being
transmitted to the contents of the ship by the structure of the ship
(ie drive pushes on drive mounts, drive mounts push on load-bearing
framework & hull, frame and hull push on decks, decks push on crew). 

So if the drive generates a *field* that affects all of the ship
equally, then each atom (actually each subatomic particle) is pushed
*directly*. 

So the effect is that you are in free fall. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 02:06:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 01:06:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20412.224526.0W9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
>> the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
>> a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
>> strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
>> hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
>> when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
>> decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
>> just one simple example.
>> 
>> Hence inertial suppression requires more than just changing the
>> strength of forces.  If you want the atoms to behave the same way, you
>> need to alter fundamental constants as well.
>  
> Why does h influence the size of the atom?

Because Planck's constant is the basis of all quantum effects. It's how
"grainy" the universe is. Change it and you change the size of the
"orbits" of the electrons. 

> Also, how do we know that h is a fundamental constant and not
> dependant on the factors we might be changing (i.e. fundamental
> forces) with the intertial suppression scheme?

We don't. But so far all attempts to come up with theories (hypotheses,
if you want to be picky) that will explain experimental data and
observations we already have but have h be a "side effect" of something
else.

Or to put it another way, h is a *measurement* of how energy & time
relate or position and momentum relate.

> Are you saying that by reducing the mass, the orbitals of the electrons
> are going to be larger?

Sort of. The compton wavelength of the electron is h/(me*c) where h is
Planck's constant, me is the mass of the electron, and c is the speed
of light.

Lower the mass of the electron and the wavelength gets longer. Which
means the electron is more smeared out. Since the "orbitals" are just a
simpler way of looking at the way the wavelength of the electron
achieves a "resonance" at given distances (ie you could think of the
orbitals as being the distances where the "orbit" is one, two, three,
etc wavelengths long) changing the wavelength changes the size of the
orbit...

> I'm not completely sure how plank's constant enters into this.

See the above. Remember, particles also act like waves. Planck's
constant determines how "big" the waves are.

> If you say you are reducing the effect of an electronic charge by the
> same percentage that you are reducing the mass, all should be good,
> even if that means plank's constant has changed, which, I admit, I
> was hoping to avoid... but when you mentioned that you created a
> set of mechanics which worked perfectly well w/ all the constants
> changing... hmm.

Yes, but the thing is, the set of changes essentially amount to
changing the scale of the universe. Whoopee. No one *inside* would be
able to tell the difference.

> I'm thinking that perhaps these constants come out of evaluating
> quantities such as the size of an atom.... in other words, perhaps
> ZPF taming (inertial suppression & fundamental force suppression)
> would end up modifying these so-called constants. But I don't know
> enough about plank's to really make that assessment. Basically, what
> I'm driving at here, is if you dropped the values of the fundamental
> forces, would planck's constant also change as a result of that? If
> so, then we've got a bit of a squirrely situation which might just
> work mathematically, but which would make your average physics
> doctorate have a cow.

There actually *are* people who've tried to work out what the universe
would be like if the values of various fundamental constants were
different. And it turns out that anything other than truly miniscule
changes will result in physics such that *matter* won't exist. 

As I recall, one of the common results is that no atoms other than
"protium" (H1) could exist. All because of interactions between the
different constants.

> Well, I'm sorta torn between this idea and Alcubierre's FTL (space
> warping) idea, but we've discussed that one a few months ago, and
> if I remember correctly, you made the contention that it leads to
> wormholes and time travel, which we really don't want to deal with.
> That's (a small) part of the reason I was hoping to use this inertial
> suppression idea instead, but if it can't be explained in a way that
> a physics major would say... "hmm... interesting... and I can't really
> disprove it either... nor does it lead to ridiculous & exploitable
> technologies" then maybe it shouldn't be used. I'm shooting for
> something with a hard-SF feel. If we wanted soft-SF, we'd use
> hyperspace and quasispace from starcon2.

Ok, FTL *must* lead to time-travel. Period. No way out.

Because of the way time and space are related, *any* pair of events A &
B such that the "interval" (the 4d space-time equivalent of distance in
3d space) between them is "FTL" (ie light couldn't get from the
location of A to the location of B in the time between the two events)
*is* time travel in at least one frame of reference.

That is, for observers moving at some speed relative to A & B, B will
occur before A. 

And no, this is *not* a mere matter of observatiuon. *Correcting* for the
relative motion, B happens first.

It's a matter of geometry. Completely unavoidable. Things like going
thru another universe don't help, because it doesn't matter *how* you
get from A to b faster than light, just that you *did*. 

So you just have to live with it. 

In Traveller, it's moderately difficult to travel into the past.
Because the jump drive is "slow" enough that you'd have to get ships
moving at a fair fraction of lightspeed to get them into the past.

Also, just because time travel is possible doesn't mean it is *useful*.

Assuming global casuality is preserved (ie effects always have causes,
even if some observers see them in reverse order) but local causality
isn't (ie some observers see effects before causes), then you can
travel in time, but you can't *change* anything. 

So if you went back to last week to try to stop yourself from doing
something, *something* would happen. You might break your leg, or get
arrested for jaywalking or something. 

But if you went to last week somewhere *else*, you'd have some
freedom, because you wouldn't *know* what the past was *there*. 

Check out Dr. Robert Forward's novel Timemaster for a wormhole based
FTL drive that allows time travel and complies with this sort of
restrictions.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 03:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 02:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <B8DD422F.3A0F2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all.

I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
plug it in and get the cost in Credits.

See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to

http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 05:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Apr 13 04:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cb77b2c.15566185@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
 <3cb77b2c.15566185@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020413131941.21300d11.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> The crew needed for the ship is a little steep, since it needs about
> 65 million times the population of present-day Terra.

Not really.

Consider that the entire volume is used, compared to just the surface.

You didn't fit a 6G manuever drive. I'm dissappointed  :-)

I really, really have to do some FF&S calculations. I think that the
staterooms should fit well into the volume, even leaving space for other
machinery.

On a serious note: Really large ships need some kind of internal rapid
transit system. Has anyone played around with numbers for this? Just
designing tunnels of a certain diameter and making a subway system should
work fine.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 05:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Sat Apr 13 04:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] Website update - Links page refreshed
Message-ID: <8A25820D-4ED0-11D6-8747-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support
http://www.bits.org.uk/

Another website update - thank you to a number of people who pointed out 
that there were a large number of links that didn't work anymore. As a 
result, I've just checked and updated the links.

Additions include Traveller Central, the TML archives, Solsec, 
Quiklink.... Thanks to Tod Glenn and Mark Urbin for the suggestions they 
gave me in January (!!).

Deletions include Halfway Station and the Missouri Archive. In the case of 
the latter, does anyone know where it's gone or have an email address for 
Joe heck. I'm willing to put the material up at BITS but need to get hold 
of it first.

If you have a website you think should be there - Traveller, SF or retail 
related* - let me know.

*retailers get there if they either stock Traveller or BITS or will order 
the material in.

Cheers,

Dom
BITS webmaster
webmaster@bits.org.uk

---------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com----------
     MacOS X 10.1 - Unix with Style
"Reality, is something that you rise above..
We don't see things as they are,  we see them as we are."
Rich - Marillion - .com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat Apr 13 05:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] Website update - Links page refreshed
In-Reply-To: <8A25820D-4ED0-11D6-8747-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEGMDKAA.tml@downport.com>

http://traveller.mu.org/ the Missouri Archive

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Dominic Mooney
Deletions include Halfway Station and the Missouri Archive. In the case of
the latter, does anyone know where it's gone or have an email address for
Joe heck. I'm willing to put the material up at BITS but need to get hold
of it first.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 07:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr 13 06:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a  starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020411151634.0209ac08@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <DAV14LEGhUOjO0L6WkQ00004c57@hotmail.com>


> Good post.

Thank you, sir.

>A couple of points to think about: one of them being the
> general piracy scenario (but that's not one I want to go into now).

Same here, actually.  My main purpose here is to use the pirate scenario to
illuminate certain ideas concerning insurance and (later on) litigation.  I
have no interest in proving how many pirates can dance on the head of a pin.
<g>

>The
> other being the definition of when the ship becomes salvage (versus the
> recovery of stolen property).  Hopefully someone with better knowledge of
> maritime law can chime in here, but the rule of thumb that I've used IMTU
> goes as follows:

<Followed by five paragraphs chocked full of Traveller gaming goodness.>

I like the way you handle salvage IYTU.  I especially like the "Ownership
Abandoned" list put out by insurance companies for tax purposes.

After scrying using the Orb of Google, it appears that we may both mean the
Law of Finds rather than salvage.

Salvage appears to be recompense for the rescue or recovery of a vessel or
property for which ownership can be established.  In many cases, this
compensation is such that simply giving the salvor salvaged property is the
best way to straighten things out.

Law of Finds would seem to apply where ownership can't be determined in a
reasonable period of time, or ownership has been abandoned.  Law of Finds
basically says "Finders keepers, losers weepers."  You find it - you keep
it.

Note also that special cases seem to apply to historical shipwrecks and
military vessels.

http://www.cpanet.freeserve.co.uk/salvagelaw.htm

www.law.cornell.edu/background/amistad/salvage.html

http://law.freeadvice.com/admiralty_maritime/salvage_and_treasure/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lasalle/owners.html

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 07:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr 13 06:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Images - Visual goodies for Traveller games
Message-ID: <DAV582gNDSWnV8u622h00004bc9@hotmail.com>

Not to mention some genuinely fascinating stuff.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DD422F.3A0F2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>

At 02:02 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Greetings all.
>
>I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
>currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
>CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
>plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
>
>See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
>
>http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html

I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:19:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:19:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Russian translation?
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080300.009fb870@mindspring.com>

Quick question for Trojan Reach.

What is the correct translation of New Moscow?  In Anglic characters, please.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Russian translation?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080300.009fb870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB84D28.11DDCBDC@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> Quick question for Trojan Reach.
> 
> What is the correct translation of New Moscow?  In Anglic characters, please.

Novaya Moskva.

In as close to Cyrillic as ASCII allows, "HOBARA MOCKBA", where the "R"
is reversed to become the Cyrillic "ya."

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DD9BDF.3A104%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:05 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
>> I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
>> currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
>> CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
>> plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
>> 
>> See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
>> 
>> http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> 
> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> 

What browser are you using?  What currency did you try to convert?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB84E2C.D57685D0@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 02:02 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Greetings all.
> >
> >I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
> >currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
> >CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
> >plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
> >
> >See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
> >
> >http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> 
> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.

Well, things were less expensive when Traveller first came out.... ;-)

I get the same results, regardless of currency tried.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB84E2C.D57685D0@premier.net>
Message-ID: <B8DD9D45.3A108%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:26 AM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:

>> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> 
> Well, things were less expensive when Traveller first came out.... ;-)
> 
> I get the same results, regardless of currency tried.

Are you using commas in the amount?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DD9D45.3A108%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB8507B.5ABAC1B9@premier.net>


Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> on 4/13/02 8:26 AM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:
> 
> >> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> >
> > Well, things were less expensive when Traveller first came out.... ;-)
> >
> > I get the same results, regardless of currency tried.
> 
> Are you using commas in the amount?

No, I'm not.  (Should I?)  And to answer the question you asked Doug,
I'm using Netscape Navigator 4.78.


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DD9BDF.3A104%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB85132.3D63F4E5@mindspring.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/13/02 8:05 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
> >> I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
> >> currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
> >> CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
> >> plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
> >>
> >> See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
> >>
> >> http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> >
> > I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> >
>
> What browser are you using?  What currency did you try to convert?
>
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

I'm getting Cr 0 also. 1 to 1e6 Cr. With or without commas, periods, etc....

Obtrav: The exchange rate for TL 8 systems without regular interstellar commerce
SUCKS!


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB85132.3D63F4E5@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:39 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

> 
> I'm getting Cr 0 also. 1 to 1e6 Cr. With or without commas, periods, etc....
> 
> Obtrav: The exchange rate for TL 8 systems without regular interstellar
> commerce
> SUCKS!

again.  Need platform and browser.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDA624.3A114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:50 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> on 4/13/02 8:39 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I'm getting Cr 0 also. 1 to 1e6 Cr. With or without commas, periods, etc....
>> 
>> Obtrav: The exchange rate for TL 8 systems without regular interstellar
>> commerce
>> SUCKS!
> 
> again.  Need platform and browser.


Naturally, there is a bug in older version of Netscape's JavaScript that
I'll have to code around.

Version 6.0 works fine, or course.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DDA624.3A114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:08:53AM -0700
References: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <B8DDA624.3A114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020413101359.A27360@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:08:53AM -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> Naturally, there is a bug in older version of Netscape's JavaScript that
> I'll have to code around.

You might want to write the thing as a Perl ( or Python or Ruby or...)
CGI.  This a good way to eliminate such issues, since CGI is a much
more standard interface.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The age of chivalry is gone.  That of sophisters, economists and
calculators has succeeded; and the glory of Europe is extinguished
forever.   --Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020413101359.A27360@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B8DDA982.3A117%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 9:13 AM, Robert A. Uhl at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:08:53AM -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>> 
>> Naturally, there is a bug in older version of Netscape's JavaScript that
>> I'll have to code around.
> 
> You might want to write the thing as a Perl ( or Python or Ruby or...)
> CGI.  This a good way to eliminate such issues, since CGI is a much
> more standard interface.

But slower.  Just being quick and dirty.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits? Fixed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDA9B2.3A118%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:05 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

> At 02:02 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>> Greetings all.
>> 
>> I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
>> currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
>> CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
>> plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
>> 
>> See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
>> 
>> http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> 
> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> 

I fixed the code to work around a bug in older versions of netscape.  Please
try again.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 11:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Sat Apr 13 10:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: An Army marches on its stomach
References: <20020412150305.5859C27AC9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB866AF.A3E0F8AB@earthlink.net>

Mike asked:
>
> What do our lovely Ex Mil Travs think of this recent development?
>
> Mikey

Well, I'm not ex-mil but I am wondering just what effects the humectants
will have on the moisture-laden human gastro-intestinal system over a
period of time.

Yeah, let's just try a BM with something that doesn't absorb moisture
easily. Then again, it just may help the males in the military
understand
child birth a little better.
 
> PS You just know that someone is going end up eating the moisture sachet
> at one point. 

Naturally.

> PPS Can someone please translate what 'acceptable' actually means in the
> context of below. 

"Acceptable" as in they don't have to eat it all the time?


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 11:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Apr 13 10:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 11:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 10:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDB8E2.3A16C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 10:13 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61

Can you try again?  I changed some code and it seems to be fixed.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 12:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 11:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20413.101338.3x0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet...
> or even the moon?

size 7 planet is roughly 5,600,000 meters in radius. Or 748e18 m^3
volume. Or 55e18 dtons (at 13.5 m^3 per dton).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 12:17:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 11:17:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020411155818.5b11fc3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20413.101809.8V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Christopher Pratt wrote:
>> What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet... or
> even
>> the moon?
>
> Calculations for Luna follow:
>
> Using a diameter of 3.476 E+6 meters:
>
> Volume: 1.759 E+20 cubic meters

No. Volume is 4/3 pi r^3. You used diameter instead of radius. 

22e18 m^3

> Displacement: 1.257 E+19 displacement tons

1.6e18

> Surface area: 3.796 E+13 square meters

37.9e12 m^2

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204122116.DXS00114@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.112406.5e1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I keep hearing around 20,000 rads, but I've also heard that 
> someone cooked like that can linger for a day or so.  There 
> were some accidents with the Therac-25 machine where people 
> were accidentally given the maximum output of the machine 
> because of software errors.  Some of the doses were in that 
> range.
>
> Also, it's not clear how they calculate dosage.  In the 
> accident for the Therac, they describe radiation through a 
> very small cross-section of the body, but also describe a 
> calculated "whole-body" dose.
>
> If shielding worked that well per your gadget, then it would 
> be possible to build a small short range weapon that 
> consisted of shielding, a source that could produce a 20,000 
> rad/sec emission, and a shutter.
>
> I don't think that there's a handwave for "my body is dead 
> and I don't know it yet".

Doses above 600(?) rads will kill. But it'll take weeks to years. 

But as a rule of thumb, doubling the dosage halves the time to death.
And vice versa.

And unlike what we see in far too much SF on TV and in movies, there's
no sharp demarcation between "you're dead" and "you'll be ok".

Heck, if you use that rule of thumb I mentioned above, you'll find that
typical background counts will kill you in about 70 years. <g>

Oh yeah, most dosage stuff is LD50. That is, a "lethal in X days" dose
will kill 50% of those receiving it in that time. Some die sooner, some
die later.

We do have some data for *really* high exposures from a few accidents.
At least a couple *did* involve "prompt incapacitation" (5 min or less).

And the symptoms for that sort of dosage aren't pretty. Spewing form
both ends of the digestive tract, convulsions and other fun things.

Caring for someone who is *that* far gone is going to be really rough
on the other PCs. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:15:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:15:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.114937.2h4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Derek Wildstar says
> <snip derek's take on adjacent ships activating their 
> hyperdrive>
>
> That sounds pretty good. It means, however, that ships might 
> have a minimum separation, which affects fleet actions.

Actually, at the velocities most fleets will be moving at, and given
the danger zones of weapons, ships are *very* unlikely to be less than
*kilometers* apart, and likely tens or even hundreds of km apart.

Being able to *see* an adjacent ship in "formation" with the naked eye
will be *very* unusual. The excepts will be things like cargo and
personnel transfer operations.

> Would we also have another problem a la B5? Starting one jump 
> field within another?

Nobody knows what happens if you try. No ship that was going to try
testing that has ever been heard from again. <eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:15:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:15:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120438.DWL01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.115941.9D3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>  
>>
>>What are you looking for characterwise?
>>
> More Intel characters, especially a computer expert.

What, you have something against Motorola employees? <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:16:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:16:25 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
In-Reply-To: <20020412.131217.-193605.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20413.120658.7M5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Grade C   Civilian cheap/Ancient Military Surplus
>> Grade B2  Military Surplus
>> Grade B1  Civilian average
>> Grade A2  Current Military
>> Grade A1  Civilian Expedition Grade
>
> Ah the lucky service men/women of today are blessed with grade A food,
> HA!
>
> Back in 1972 - 1975 all I ever saw, ate, and enjoyed, HA, were C Rations
> packed in 1953!!!

Well, back in the late 60s/early 70s, I used to grab the Air Force
equivalent ("in flight meal packs") at the commissary to take on Boy
Scout camping trips. Basicly, we used them for dinner on Friday night
when we were tired after setting up camp, and didn't feel much like
putting a lot of effort into cooking. 

Some were better than others, but none were all that *bad*. And some
things, like the fruitcake and poundcake desserts were worth fighting
over. <g>

I was using a WWII vintage messkit and a WWII canteen & cup at the
time. Turned out that Lipton "instant soup" packages made exactly
enough soup for a canteen cup full of water. 

And the cans from the meal packs fit into the cup nicely too. Boil them
for a bit and they were nice and hot.

Then again, I liked most food in the school caefteria, so I may not be
the best judge of these things. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
References: <20020413111907.EC28E27AF7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB88500.956F16CB@ameritech.net>



> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:05:39 -0400
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
> Subject: Re: [TML] The "gun" debate
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> At 01:46 PM 4/12/02 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> > > From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> > >> Please...
> > > Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> > > sex lives.
> >Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
> >subscribe via the digest.
> >Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
> >mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT
> >political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to
> >keep the list Traveller focused.
> 
> Hmmm...I haven't noticed the thread discussing the politics of 
> ownership

<snip>

There were a few. Thankfully not followed up on by others. Hence my
statement, "the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT political
issues...." To be honest I may be reacting more to trolls in sig files
than to the threads themselves. 

Sorry if I've offended.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204121200450.15966-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20413.122049.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> learened that the IRS doesn't keep  old Windrone machines. So the records
> kept say on a Winblown 95v1 is not viewable by the IRS. Keep that in mind
> for an audit. Got that from the H&R block people in town.

Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system. 

The disk formats haven't changed (not the flopiy ones anyway) and the
newer programs can generally read the data files from the older ones.

>  O.K. add the different Apples, Atarai, Franklin, Osborne <sp?> and for
> the U.K. members I will mention the Speccy <Spectrum: flame wars on
> comp.sys.cbm about this one> Each had a different basic. To the point that
> they wer pretty much incompatible with each other. I know that ther were
> other models using other Basic formats and loading. I know that my
> prefered PC system uses GCR formatiing. I think another one is called MFD,
> but am not certain of the title.

FM (aka "single density") and MFM (aka "double density" and "high density").

Most "modern" floppy controller chips can't read FM disks. But a lot of
fairly recent ones can. For example, the Adaptec SCSI cards that
include a floppy controller can. 

With some easily available software I can read TRS-80 floppies on my
PC. To read Commodore or Apple GCR disks, I'd have to install the old
CopyIIPC deluxe option board in one of my systems. 

>  Now take all of those and what I missed. Add to that the IBuM system
> starting from the Pc jr. to current. All the differeent versions of the
> windoze NT and ## themes. I mean can you today on the X thing read a disk
> from a PC jr  on original media/format?

PCjr floppies used the same format as the PC. 

No idea what the X-box uses. 

What gets fun is when you need to read things like 8" floppies or the
whacko Amstrad 3" (*not* 3.5"!) floppies. Or cassette tapes, or stringy
floppies or other weird media.

I once had to recover a program by reading paper tape by *hand*. 

>> It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the
>> Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of
>> pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding
>> and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of
>> languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate,
>> lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications
>> protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of
>> getting messages into and out of the system.
>
>  Point well stated. Computer incompatibilities would make the Imperiaum
> fall apart. Before the MT saga. Pardon me for using the Commodore as an
> example platform in this part. It is however the only one that I know to
> any degree. On the concept of  being standard for msg and images. I see a
> parrel to the C= PC platform. Take this msg that I am writing. Written in
> PINE 4.44 my e-mail system. Sent out in ASCII. Though my actual system
> uses the PET ascii as it's default system. HTML though for a msg does bug
> me and a lot of people. On my system it presents all the commands as well
> as the msg. Yet I can use a prg from last year called Wave B2.9 <still
> Beta> that allows me to read in 80c HTML. In fact my book mark file is
> converted that way. JOs a free Beta Test DL also will read on screen HTML.

I have a DOS program called HTMSTRIP that takes HTML and produces a
reasonably formatted plain text file. It even puts in the "boxes" in
tables. 

>  Images: I can veiw off line GIF and JPG files. Also I can pritn them
> through Post Script and even EPS <Encapsulated Post Script> Images. There
> is a tool that I haven't had yet to use. That will convert PDF to PS for
> my use and zip it in PK2.04g zip. A format that I can also use in packing
> and unpacking. All on a 1984 PC.

There's a DOS program that'll view many image formats, including .AVI
and MPEG files, and play a lot of sound formats. 

>  As i showed above. There would be those that would create ways to use the
> systems to see the new items. Though I do have a tendency to bristle at
> the term "standard". Been a victim of that erronous ideaology many times
> in many situations. I do think that some sort of "chip" is needed for the
> interchange of Imperial  material. Though there are probaly PRGs to
> convert the material to local standards. As i have tools to convert Ascii
> to PET ascii. Or the ability to log onto a BBS or even here with Ansi
> colours. Making the material sutible for the local inhabitants and the
> systems that they are using. The question is the reverse possible? Which
> is where the  story plot originated.

Well, the idea is that there need to be publicly available standards.
Having multiple standards is merely inconvenient as long as the info
on the file formats is available. 

>  Using today as an example. Can the Windoze users here read a file that I
> make? Well some of them they can. The previously mentioned gwimport.exe
> file. But that is only for text, not the images. There are emulators if
> the file is make in that format <.D64, .D71, .D81> But only work if the
> user hs the tool to use the files. Vice 1.8 IIRC. So I would suggest that
> something in the reverse that is from local to Imperial would need to have
> ben created. Or t here is some sort of thing. Like you mentioned the Inet.
> Where the ability to collect items of interest is found in some form of
> compatible mannerism.

The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
to import and export files in those formats.

Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:16:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <200204122133.DXT01374@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.123907.8I6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson talks about radioactivity
> <snip>
>
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone 
> can help out and pony up their house rules).
>
> Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-
> T) powerplant's energy output will be in the form of 
> neutrons.  

Except Traveller fusion plants don't use the D-T reaction. They would
appear to use some form of p-p reaction.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:16:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:16:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b8dd1a45b944@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20413.124305.2I4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> And the question is whether
> a) Is this likely (just because some sort of terrorist act is 
> possible doesn't mean that someone is trying to do it.  We didn't 
> protect against the 9/11 incident because, in past, such an act 
> simply wasn't likely enough.  The failure was to recognize that rise 
> of those willing and able to do such a thing).  There are still 
> things out there were someone could cause loss of life that we don't 
> protect against.

Just a few things off the top of my head...

Within half a mile of each other locally are the following:

A major "tank farm" for petroleum products.
A factory producing chlorine and hydrogen chloride by the ton. 
A producer of liquid oxygen (with a tank several stories tall!).
A semiconductor related plant that uses large quantities of stuff like
phosphine and arsine gases. 
A residential area.

Oh yeah, tankers dock between the chlorine/HCL producer and the tank farm...

For a real scare, read the labels on those tank cars on the railroad,
then look up the hazard warnings for the materials in question.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:17:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:17:11 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20413.125426.3y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61

You should try upgrading to 4.79.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F216ap21GXYqZM8Wapp0001d245@hotmail.com>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

     "You and Mr. Laning and I are in general agreement on this point.  
Solomani, whether Imperial or Confederate, suppress the truth of Vegan, 
Geonee, Azhanti, what-have-you revolts that finally toppled the Ziru Sirka."

Mr. Goffin,

     Thank you, sir.  Having the MYMINES, Ltd. legal department agree in 
general with my proposals is certainly heartening.  It means that I may be 
actually on to something and simply not just off my medicine.

     "An easy typographical error to make is Whipsnake, which is something 
else again, I suppose."

     My spell checker keeps wanting to "correct" my nom de List to Larceny 
Whipsnake.  Of course, it also spells Traveller with only one "L".  Silly 
CPU.
     Appropo of nothing, feeding Larsen E. Whipsnade into the wondefully 
weird "Vilani by Lonnie" engine results in this jaw breaker:

     Aagarashirenedanashiramik Huugarashire

     I think we may have stumbled across the name of the Vilani ambassador 
who visited the Sol system between the 2nd and 3rd Interstellar Wars and 
reported that Terra was nothing more than a "nest of pirates."  Oddly 
enough, immediately after that visit, Ambassador Huugarashire was able to 
retire rather earlier than most Ziru Sirka civil servants thanks in part to 
a very generous bequest in the will of a long lost uncle.  Even more oddly, 
the bequest was paid in Terran Confederation sols.  All inquiries about this 
strange turn of events should be directed to the ambassador's new address 
and should also use his new title.  Please forward all correspondance and/or 
summons to "King Huugarashire, third hammock from the left, the Isle of 
Yap."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <F264Wf26myeOi1EkcZy0001ef51@hotmail.com>

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

     "Except Traveller fusion plants don't use the D-T reaction. They would 
appear to use some form of p-p reaction."


Mr. Erickson,

     I know you've posted information on the p-p reaction many times before, 
but could you do so again please?  I'd like to see what sort of particles 
we'd be dealing with using that specific reaction.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB88500.956F16CB@ameritech.net>
References: <20020413111907.EC28E27AF7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413165050.01a26eb0@192.168.0.1>

At 02:20 PM 4/13/2002 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:05:39 -0400
> > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
> > Subject: Re: [TML] The "gun" debate
> > Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > At 01:46 PM 4/12/02 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > > > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> > > > From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> > > >> Please...
> > > > Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> > > > sex lives.
> > >Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
> > >subscribe via the digest.
> > >Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
> > >mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT
> > >political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to
> > >keep the list Traveller focused.
> > Hmmm...I haven't noticed the thread discussing the politics of
> > ownership
><snip>
>There were a few. Thankfully not followed up on by others. Hence my
>statement, "the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT political
>issues...." To be honest I may be reacting more to trolls in sig files
>than to the threads themselves.

Trolling sig files...Golly!   Who would do such a thing? :-)

>Sorry if I've offended.

Perhaps someone else may have been offended, but personally, I'm pretty 
thick skinned.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 15:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 13 14:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <20020413.142703.-23853.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

Mark

On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:52:38 -0400 Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
>
> Perhaps someone else may have been offended, but personally, I'm 
> pretty thick skinned.

Oh, thick skinned huh?

What's your armor rating?

Turokan :~)

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 15:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Apr 13 14:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Images - Visual goodies for Traveller games
In-Reply-To: <DAV582gNDSWnV8u622h00004bc9@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV582gNDSWnV8u622h00004bc9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020413234102.6af49573.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> Not to mention some genuinely fascinating stuff.
> 
> http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html

*drool*

Lovely link, thanks.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 15:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Apr 13 14:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20413.101809.8V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020411155818.5b11fc3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20413.101809.8V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020413234327.7deee729.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> No. Volume is 4/3 pi r^3. You used diameter instead of radius. 

*sound of head hitting table repeatedly*

I think I had a bit too much stupid for breakfast that day...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 19:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Sat Apr 13 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEBPCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

John Kwon wrote :-
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone
> can help out and pony up their house rules).

Modified GURPS radiation rules follow (exposure levels OK, biological
effects off a bit in G:Comp 2).
Contact me off-list for d20 and MT versions (the latter may still
be available on the Freelance Traveller site).


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

------------------------------
Acute radiation exposures can have adverse effects. Check on the
table, rolling against HT every day the character is exposed to
at least 1 rad per day. Compare with the character's total
accumulated dose to see what the effects are.

Radiation Effects Table
Dose (rads)    HT Roll
5-70       : Fail :- A, onset 1d+6 hours, lasts 1 day
           : Critical Fail :-  A, onset 1d hours, lasts 1 day
71-150     : Fail :- A, 1d hours
           : Critical Fail :- D(H), HA within 24h
151-300    : Success :- A, B(-1) within 48h
           : Fail :- D(H), HA within 24h
           : Critical Fail :- E, 1d weeks
301-530    : Critical Success :- A, B(-1) within 48h
           : Success :- B(-2), C on exposure, D(H), HA within 48h
           : Fail :- E, 1d weeks
           : Critical Fail :- GI, within 48h
531-830    : All suffer A within 24h, C on exposure, E in 1d-1 weeks
           : Critical Success :- B(-2), D(E, H), HA within 24h
           : Success :- B(-3), D(E, H), HA within 24h
           : Fail or Critical Fail :- as per success, add
             GI within 24h
831-3000   : All suffer A within 12 hours, B(-3), C on exposure,
             D(E, H), GI within 12 hours, E in 3d+3 days
           : Critical Fail :- CV within 1d hours
3001-8000  : CV ; A, within 1d hours ; B(-3) ; C on exposure ;
             D(E, H, P) ; E, 1d days
8000+      : All suffer CV ; A within 1d hours and E within 4d hours.

* Key to Effects Table
A : Nausea, headache and vomitting (1d penalty to ST, DX, IQ).
Listed dice roll is for time of onset post exposure. Roll daily
against HT to recover 1 point of each attribute.
Critical success restores 2 points and means that symptoms are
controlled for that day.
Failure leads to the loss of 1 point, critical failure, 2.

B : Fatigue (penalty to ST and HT given). Roll daily to
recover 1 point of ST or HT on a critical
success. Failure loses 1 ST or HT point, critical failure loses 1
of each. Low Pain Threshold for seven days following exposure.

C : Incapacitation : -4 penalty on physical tasks for 2 days,
-2 on mental tasks for 1 day.

D : Skin changes. Erythema (E) is a mild reddening of the skin.
(H) refers to hair loss. Hair falls out within 24 hours.
(P) refers to partial thickness ("second degree") burns which do 1d damage.
Skin breakdown may ensue over the two weeks following exposure.

E : Death. Survival time from exposure without aggressive treatment
is given by the dice roll.

HA :- Haematopoietic syndrome - roll daily to prevent loss of 1 HT.
Stopped on critical success.
Hemophilia disadvantage in effect while ST, DX, IQ depressed.

GI :- Gastrointestinal syndrome - roll daily to prevent permanent
loss of 1 HT. Stopped on critical success. Characters have the Weak
Immune System disadvantage while affected, and are prone to diarrhoea
and fevers, in addition to symptoms listed above. If HT falls below 4,
teeth and nails begin to fall out.

CV :- Cerebral syndrome - 2 IQ and hits are lost within an hour
of exposure. Roll vs. HT to maintain consciousness (and prevent
loss of 1 HT on a critical success) every hour. With exposures
above 8000 rem, HT loss is irreversible. Consciousness checks
are made every hour at -2. Once consciousness is lost or HT falls
to zero, fitting ensues, then death.

* Long-term effects (months to years post exposure) :-
i. Cataracts - the threshold for development of lens opacities is a
dose of 200 rads. Make a HT check every six months, with a -1 for
every additional 100 rads of either acute or chronic exposure. On a
fail, the damage is spotted before it interferes with vision ; on a
critical fail, Blindness ensues.

ii. Dermatitis - cumulative exposures to the skin alone can cause
chronic skin changes. True radiation dermatitis is only seen at
exposure levels that would be lethal if they were whole
body doses (e.g. radiotherapy for some cancers). The skin effects
seen at the dose levels above are often permanent with chronic
exposures. In game terms, apply the Slow Healing or Reduced Hit
Points disadvantages to the relevant body area(s).

iii. Carcinogenesis - the probability of developing tumours varies
with the dose and the tissues affected ; the precise mechanisms of
initiation remain unclear as of 2001.
For example, the incidence of leukaemia peaks at 5-6 years post
exposure. Other malignancies have latencies of 15 to 60 years.

The probability of finding a clinically apparent malignancy
in any given year roughly increases with age. As a rule of thumb,
every 100 rads of radiation exposure increases the lifetime risk
by 1 percent.

Age   Probability  Very approximate dice rolls
< 15  1/3,000      30 on 5d6
< 35  1/750        24 on 4d6
< 54  1/125        22 or better on 4d6
< 75  1/30         12 on 2d6
> 75  1/60         17 or better on 3d6
(based on US cancer figures for 1980, both sexes)

For game purposes, a critical failure (18) on a HT roll means
that a malignancy has been detected. A -1 modifier applies for
every 200 rads of radiation exposure. Check once a year.

iv. Damage to Fertility
Reproductive cells are sensitive to radiation.
Dose (rads)    Effect
150            Sterility for 1-6 weeks
250            Sterility for 1-2 years
500            Permanent sterility in 75%
800            Permanent sterility in 100%



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 20:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Apr 13 19:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] landgrab questions
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEDOGHAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I've claimed Biter and was working on by landgrab and I have a few questions

What is the fleet number for the Imperial Sword World subsector fleet?
Where is it headquartered?
What is Lunion's fleet number?
Does it help out imperial forces in the Sword Worlds?



________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr 13 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of malfunction?
Message-ID: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>

Authenticity Disclaimer:  This information has not been verified by me or
anyone that I personally trust.  I do not know if the facts cited are true.

I await comment from the learned members of this group.

<Begin snip>

OFFICER SAFETY WARNING

Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) Unit Causes
Malfunction of Officer's Issue Firearm

In July 2001, an officer from the Manheim Township (Lancaster County,
Pennsylvania) Police Department had an incident where his issue firearm
malfunctioned. The Smith & Wesson, Model 4013, .40 S&W caliber,
semi-automatic pistol was found to have a magnetized firing pin, which stuck
to the side of the channel within the slide. Upon inspection, it was
determined that the entire pistol had become so magnetized that paper clips
actually stuck to any metal surface. The department armorer was able to
demagnetize the firearm with the use of a high-power, videotape-erasing unit
after complete disassembly.

When the malfunction was discovered, the officer had no idea of when or how
his pistol had become magnetized. A review of the officer's activities,
revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical office
that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During the
investigation, the officer had walked into the MRI suite that magnetized the
pistol. MRI medical personnel have detailed instructions on safety, which
include keeping metal objects away from the unit. Upon further inspection,
two additional officer's firearms were also found to have been magnetized.

RECOMMENDATION

ALL ISSUE FIREARMS SHOULD BE CHECKED FOR THIS CONDITION

Police department and medical facility security administrative personnel
should notify officers of the following:

Investigations within medical facilities could magnetize an issue firearm
rendering it inoperable.

The test to determine if a firearm has become magnetized is to place a paper
clip next to the firearm.

If the paper clip sticks to the firearm, a supervisor should be notified
immediately.

A trained department-designated officer should verify the firearm is
magnetized and the firearm should be demagnetized with the use of a
high-powered videotape-erasing unit after it has been completely
disassembled.

The firearm should be test fired prior to being returned to service.

The fact that there is no outward sign that a firearm may not function as a
result of MRI/magnetic exposure makes this problem difficult to detect.
Awareness of this situation may prevent serious or deadly consequences.

Source: Sing, Lieutenant Douglas K. Manheim Township (Lancaster County,
Pennsylvania) Police Department Revised March 2002.

<end snip>

from website

http://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/officersafetyMRI.htm

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DDB8E2.3A16C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413200302.009ee460@mindspring.com>

At 10:28 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>on 4/13/02 10:13 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > Tod Glenn wrote:
> >
> > P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61
>
>Can you try again?  I changed some code and it seems to be fixed.

Works now, nice little utility.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:08:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:08:21 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of
 malfunction?
In-Reply-To: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413200431.009efbd0@mindspring.com>

At 09:30 PM 4/13/02 -0500, you wrote:
>When the malfunction was discovered, the officer had no idea of when or how
>his pistol had become magnetized. A review of the officer's activities,
>revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical office
>that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During the
>investigation, the officer had walked into the MRI suite that magnetized the
>pistol. MRI medical personnel have detailed instructions on safety, which
>include keeping metal objects away from the unit. Upon further inspection,
>two additional officer's firearms were also found to have been magnetized.

Considering the officer had to walk past large signs warning that a BIG 
freaking magnet was in use, I think the department should charge him for 
the repairs.

I accidentally left my steel wedding ring on during my last MRI.  The damn 
thing vibrated to the point it actually became warm.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Terran/Vilani conflict (Was: Deadliness of combat)
In-Reply-To: <20020411004002.DF53927A7B@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140512410.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>     We've got the constant drum beat in canon about the Vilani "way of war"
>being brutally pragmatic.  They use hostages, have no qualms about nukes,
>target civilians, etc., etc., anything tactic that is cost effective.

What constant drum? We have _one_ reference that details Vilani war
practices, and that reference is of rather late vintage (MT) and is part
of the Forbidden Canon. If you find yourself unable to reconcile that with
the historical events of the Traveller Universe, then I'd suggest that its
the description of Vilani war practices that requires amendment.

>     The Ziru Sirka, or it's direct antecedents, were able to put the Vilani
>boot on the neck of quite a number of species and they've kept it there for
>millennia.  The fact that the Geonee, Suerrat, Syleans, et. al. are still
>being kept down at the same time the Terrans show up tells me that the
>Vilani could still get the job done.

It tells me that they didn't exterminate minor races wantonly, claims
about their ruthlessness to the contrary notwithstanding. So maybe they
weren't quite so ruthless as they are painted in _Cogs&Dogs_.

>     "The Vilani might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really
>capable of, or were under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder."
>
>     After losing the first two Interstellar Wars and visiting the Sol
>system, the Vilani should have known what the Terrans were really capable
>of.  GT:RoF also mentions that the Vilani, when faced with the bewildering
>welter of Terran cultures and genotypes, thought they were facing an
>alliance of several minor human races.  That "threat" alone should have
>spurred some sort of response.

Like a search for the other homeworlds of the alliance? I certainly can't
blame the poor Vilani governor for wanting to locate the other homeworlds
before destroying the only one he knew of. For all he knew Terra was just
the catspaw and the other races of the alliance the real threat...

>     It's the dichotomy that get's me wondering.  We've got ZS governors
>still keeping the boot on the neck of umpteen minor races, we've got the
>coreward governors arming and using Vargr mercs in political power games
>against each other, and, at the same time, we've got governor after governor
>after on the Rim behaving completely unlike the others throughout the ZS and
>losing piddling wars to a minor race nearly totally confined to a single
>system.

The Terrans made a huge effort early in the game to disperse to other
worlds precisely because they feared that Terra would be destroyed. By the
time the Vilani realized that they had a real fight on their hands, the
Terrans were no longer confined to a single system. And don't forget the
other members of that alliance of minor races...

>     "Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion sentients would do?"
>
>     But they'd done it in the past, i.e. the Sky Raiders, and were
>currently threatening to do it to others, the many minor races being held
>down, so why didn't it happen to Sol?  The Ziru Sirka had the numbers, it
>had better technology, and it was chillingly ruthless.  How did it happen to
>lose?

Well, my take is that they didn't have the numbers. If the Vilani (as I
believe) considered 50 to 500 million an ideal size for a planetary
population and deliberately kept their major worlds fstable at those
levels, Terra could actually have outnumbered all the vilani worlds in
[Vilani name for Sol Sector] Sector.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
References: <20020413111905.52B7127AF6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004701c1e367$1bb70380$705e8690@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> But if you went to last week somewhere *else*, you'd have some
> freedom, because you wouldn't *know* what the past was *there*.
>
> Check out Dr. Robert Forward's novel Timemaster for a wormhole based
> FTL drive that allows time travel and complies with this sort of
> restrictions.

A week or two back I started working on an idea for a solo game.  It's since
developed into a world design system for a non-OTU game.  I'm using a
wormhole based FTL, as it allows you to use network/area mapping, and not
bother with "uninteresting" systems.

I'm going for a very abstract system, so fudges like this aren't a problem.

(Memo to self: does "FTL radio" exist?)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Deadliness of combat
In-Reply-To: <20020412005321.E214327A98@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>    All of Holland worked for their resistance, the Germans had a devil of
>time finding collaborators there.  The Danes, from the King on down, wore
>the yellow Star of David and helped their Jews escape to Sweden.

Actually, the story goes that King Christian threatened to wear the yellow
Star of David if it was forced on Danish Jews. I'm not sure how much truth
there is in that story. Denmark's situation during the early years of
occupation was anomalous. The Germans pretended that they were in Denmark
merely to protect us against attack by the Allies and that we were their
ally. Consequently they were hampered in just what they could 'request'
the Danish government to do. For instance, Danish Jews were never required
to wear the Star of David.

Indeed, I've been told that the Allies might have treated Denmark as a
true ally of Germany if it hadn't been for three things: Free Danish
sailors volunteering in droves to serve on English ships, the rescue of
the Jews, and the efforts of the Danish Resistance.

>ObTrav - So, from the Vilani point of view, who were the "French" to the
>Terran's "Nazis" during the Interstellar Wars?  The Vegans?  Some other
>human minor race?

Well, I imagine the Dingiransmust have become pretty thoroughly 'Terranized'
over the years for them to be made the new capital.



Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:10:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:10:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120438.DWL01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DE4F27.3A29F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 9:38 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>> 
>> What are you looking for characterwise?
>> 
> More Intel characters, especially a computer expert.
> 

No way, John.  That's too much like real life (I'm an IT professional).  The
computer expert does *not* wish to play a computer expert.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204140417.EAC00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson writes:
>What, you have something against Motorola employees? <g>
>
No, just AMD.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Deadliness of combat
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>; from rancke@diku.dk on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200
References: <20020412005321.E214327A98@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020413222116.A28871@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> Denmark's situation during the early years of occupation was
> anomalous.  The Germans pretended that they were in Denmark merely
> to protect us against attack by the Allies and that we were their
> ally.  Consequently they were hampered in just what they could
> 'request' the Danish government to do.

ISTR that at one point the King of Denmark was arrested.  It took
quite a bit of German military might to defeat retainers armed with
quarter-staffs, pole-arms and swords.  Or is that another king I'm
thinking of--or purely an urban legend?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To believe in gun control, one has to believe that guns are not an
effective means of self-defense, which is why police carry them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204140424.EAD00152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
<snip the hazards near his home>

Not too far from here is the Calvert Cliffs nuclear plant.  
A "very" short distance from there is a docking platform for 
LNG (liquified natural gas) tankers.  The dock and pipeline 
is not in use at the moment, but they are talking about 
reactivating it.

I remember reading about "sublimation" accidents.  They say 
that an ocean-going LNG tanker holds the equivalent of tens 
of kilotons of explosive power.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204140424.EAD00152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DE54E0.3A2B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 9:24 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Not too far from here is the Calvert Cliffs nuclear plant.
> A "very" short distance from there is a docking platform for
> LNG (liquified natural gas) tankers.  The dock and pipeline
> is not in use at the moment, but they are talking about
> reactivating it.
> 
> I remember reading about "sublimation" accidents.  They say
> that an ocean-going LNG tanker holds the equivalent of tens
> of kilotons of explosive power.

All you need is a big ship of fertilizer.  Remember Texas City?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204140452.EAD01433@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod says
<snip Texas City>

The problem with an LNG tanker is that anyone with a .50 BMG 
rifle within 1 km can put a hole in one of the tanks.  It 
doesn't have to be a HE or HEI round.  But once that leak 
pops, there's a runaway sublimation effect that blows the 
tank open and then the whole ship goes.

There were some concerns voiced about the effect that ships 
like this might have in a confined waterway.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 23:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat Apr 13 22:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEBPCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <000301c1e373$27a9fb00$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Robert O'Connor
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 18:47
To: TML, New
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules

John Kwon wrote :-
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone
> can help out and pony up their house rules).

Modified GURPS radiation rules follow (exposure levels OK, biological
effects off a bit in G:Comp 2).
Contact me off-list for d20 and MT versions (the latter may still
be available on the Freelance Traveller site).


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

------------------------------

Damn that was a good post Robert!  Kudos.  This one gets the CDR
treatment.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 23:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 13 22:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] JTAS question
Message-ID: <20020414.013949.-343735.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

Can someone summarize for me what is covered the article "A Traveller
Bibliography" in JTAS #8?



                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 00:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Apr 13 23:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Deadliness of combat
In-Reply-To: <20020413222116.A28871@4dv.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>; from rancke@diku.dk on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200
Message-ID: <3CB9C6FE.12042.25C89E@localhost>

On 13 Apr 2002, at 22:21, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> > Denmark's situation during the early years of occupation was
> > anomalous.  The Germans pretended that they were in Denmark merely
> > to protect us against attack by the Allies and that we were their
> > ally.  Consequently they were hampered in just what they could
> > 'request' the Danish government to do.

> ISTR that at one point the King of Denmark was arrested.  It took
> quite a bit of German military might to defeat retainers armed with
> quarter-staffs, pole-arms and swords.  Or is that another king I'm
> thinking of--or purely an urban legend?

I believe that what happened is that the Germans arrived just as the 
Royal Guard was conducting a full dress parade, so the Guards 
formed a double line and commenced disciplined volley fire (it must 
have looked like something straight out of the Napoleonic wars, 
only with bolt action rifles). This took the Germans somewhat by 
surprise and several were killed, but once they recovered from the 
initial shock, they started bringing up heavy weapons at which 
point the King ran out and ordered that the Guards surrender.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 00:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 23:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204140452.EAD01433@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DE7400.3A2DE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 9:52 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> The problem with an LNG tanker is that anyone with a .50 BMG
> rifle within 1 km can put a hole in one of the tanks.  It
> doesn't have to be a HE or HEI round.  But once that leak
> pops, there's a runaway sublimation effect that blows the
> tank open and then the whole ship goes.

Sublimation?  It is LNG right?  You have to have a solid transform directly
to a gas for it to be sublimation.

Carbon Dioxide ice sublimates.

Tod
(former Chemist) 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 01:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 00:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <F264Wf26myeOi1EkcZy0001ef51@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.233341.4R2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>      "Except Traveller fusion plants don't use the D-T reaction. They would 
> appear to use some form of p-p reaction."
>
>
> Mr. Erickson,
>
>      I know you've posted information on the p-p reaction many times before, 
> but could you do so again please?  I'd like to see what sort of particles 
> we'd be dealing with using that specific reaction.

The *overall* reaction is

4 H1 -> 1 He4

I don't recall the ways that (for example) the Bethe "solar phoenix"
reaction (which involves carbon as a catalyst) works. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 01:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 00:12:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <004701c1e367$1bb70380$705e8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20413.235758.2j2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: Leonard Erickson
>> But if you went to last week somewhere *else*, you'd have some
>> freedom, because you wouldn't *know* what the past was *there*.
>>
>> Check out Dr. Robert Forward's novel Timemaster for a wormhole based
>> FTL drive that allows time travel and complies with this sort of
>> restrictions.
>
> A week or two back I started working on an idea for a solo game.  It's since
> developed into a world design system for a non-OTU game.  I'm using a
> wormhole based FTL, as it allows you to use network/area mapping, and not
> bother with "uninteresting" systems.
>
> I'm going for a very abstract system, so fudges like this aren't a problem.
>
> (Memo to self: does "FTL radio" exist?)

Since Forward's book was published, further work was done on wormholes
and time travel.

It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
builds until it collapses the wormholes. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 03:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Apr 14 02:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of malfunction?
In-Reply-To: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020414114830.26705bd4.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical
office
> that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During
the
> investigation, the officer had walked into the MRI suite that magnetized
the
> pistol.

How would this kind of problem affect gauss/railgun type weapons?

Not that any PCs would try bringing any of them through security, mind
you...

 ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 06:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 05:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204141224.EAT00139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 06:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 05:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <200204141227.EAT00280@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

(Leonard Erickson)  says
>
>I don't recall the ways that (for example) the Bethe "solar 
>phoenix" reaction (which involves carbon as a catalyst) 
>works. 
>

I thought that the CNO cycle was a relatively "slow" rate 
reaction, even if it had a lower threshold to get started.

Also, isn't the p-p reaction the intended reaction for the 
Bussard ramjet?  I keep hearing that the p-p reaction is more 
difficult to start thant the D-T reaction.  And if we're 
going to make it so difficult, why not just use He-3?
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any
> upper limit
> ("that's no moon...")

Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
gravity well, and you misjump.

Net result : you can have a J6 planet. But no one can tell where its going.
Let's call it Heisenberg.

Regards

Andy Brick

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.346 / Virus Database: 194 - Release Date: 10/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

ObTrav: Refueling in an oxygen atmosphere, of course.  

A liquified natural gas tanker poses a fire and explosion 
hazard.  Also, even though it is cryogenically cooled, a 
certain percentage of the tankage boils off every day.

I keep hearing people say that the fuel is carried in the 
form of liquid water and converted at the last minute.  This 
would seem to be inefficient, as a substantial portion of 
your tankage would not be usable fuel.  Liquid methane 
(liquified natural gas) might be a bit better than water, and 
probably what "unrefined" fuel from a gas giant would be.  
However, a significant proportion of the fuel would still not 
be hydrogen, unless the ship was using the CNO cycle.  
However, you don't need to keep putting carbon in the cycle, 
as it is reused.

Also, I have read several times in old Traveller works about 
the "L-Hyd" tank (which seems to say "liquid hydrogen" and 
not "water").  The description in the AHL supplement 
distinctly refers to the tankage on the Fuel Deck as "L-Hyd".

But I digress.  For optimum top-off, I think that refuelling 
would take place just prior to takeoff, in the same manner 
that they refuel the shuttle a few hours before takeoff. 

There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were 
topping off with LNG or L-Hyd.  If you were in atmosphere and 
someone scored a Fuel hit with a laser weapon, I'm betting 
that the ship's fuel tanks would explode.  What would have 
been a minor hit in space would be disastrous in atmosphere.  
See what happened to the fuel tank on the shuttle when the 
SRB played a flame on it.  One fuel hit in atmosphere and 
WHAM.

Also, I'm wondering what happens if the fuel tanks adjoin 
crew spaces, as they do in so many deck plans.  Let's say you 
depressurize before combat, and close bulkhead doors.  One 
compartment or more could be filled with fuel if the ship is 
hit in certain ways.  Equipment and personnel in these areas 
would be instantly destroyed/killed by cryogenic liquid.  

I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot 
of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and 
ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how 
it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only 
lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure - 
the fuel is subdivided into several large tanks, perhaps more 
on large combat vessels - but not on a small ship, which 
might have at most two separate tanks.  It would be hard to 
effectively pump fuel from a holed tank, if it was able to 
retain fuel at all after the hit.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>; from andy@exeus.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 01:59:26PM +0100
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 01:59:26PM +0100, Andy Brick wrote:
> 
> Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> gravity well, and you misjump.

Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
Betelgeuse.  So are you.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Mit den Frauen ist das wie mit den Firewalls: was [...] am meisten
Sicherheit garantiert und am wenigsten Probleme macht, ist immer das,
was zum speziellen Fall am besten passt.
                        --Urs Traenkner in de.comp.security.firewall

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An interesting product - anything like this in Traveller?
Message-ID: <200204141322.EAV00067@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

In any ship or vehicle design sequence, is there anything 
like this?  It seems to be an internal add-on that reduces 
the potential for internal explosions.

http://www.blastgard.net/outlook.asp

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:24:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:24:06 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
References: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c1e3b7$e7bc9260$52200050@matt>

> I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot
> of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and
> ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how
> it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only
> lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure -
> the fuel is subdivided into several large tanks, perhaps more
> on large combat vessels - but not on a small ship, which
> might have at most two separate tanks.  It would be hard to
> effectively pump fuel from a holed tank, if it was able to
> retain fuel at all after the hit.

How about self sealing linings around the tanks... the fuel loss is that
lost before the hole gets sealed...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting 
>a pull on Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>

Which made me dislike the "100 D" limit.  If I am at the 100 
D limit for Earth (at earth's distance from Sol, which has 
its own gravitational pull), what is the value of G?

Now let's compare that to the same value at 100 D from 
Jupiter.  I would bet that it's different.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <200204141331.EAV00387@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Matthew Bond" says
>
>How about self sealing linings around the tanks... the fuel 
>loss is that lost before the hole gets sealed...
>

On a cryogenic tank, no less.  Must be some of that 
Unobtanium lining the fuel tanks.

I think also, that we're probably talking about a fairly 
large spot size for ship laser weapons.  If they are anything 
like the planned SBL, the spot size will be around 1 foot.  
The hole in the fuel tank is likely to be larger, since the 
spot will move some.  And explosive missiles (if forged 
fragments, HEAT jets, or kinetic impactors) are going to make 
holes more than a few inches in diameter (or larger).  Self-
sealing only seems to work on modern aircraft fuel tanks for 
small non-explosive projectiles.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <F209IlOAPE3EzbwJp8k00003548@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBA2ECF.32620.8436A0@localhost>

On 13 Apr 2002 at 5:09, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      GURPS Compedium II has servicable rad rules.  IIRC, there are some MT 
> rules in a DGP Digest issue that deal with exposure rather exhaustively.

They're a bit messed up on what types of critters are most sensitive to 
radiation though, IIRC. Those rules have it that birds are something 
like 5 times _less_ sensitive to radiation than mammales, when AFAIK 
they're rather _more_ sensitive to radiation in RL.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEBPCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <3CBA30BC.19744.8BBA6A@localhost>

On 14 Apr 2002 at 11:47, Robert O'Connor wrote:

> iv. Damage to Fertility
> Reproductive cells are sensitive to radiation.
> Dose (rads)    Effect
> 150            Sterility for 1-6 weeks
> 250            Sterility for 1-2 years
> 500            Permanent sterility in 75%
> 800            Permanent sterility in 100%

Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
men, if you prefer)?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 08:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hullo

> > Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> > simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> > gravity well, and you misjump.
>
> Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
> Betelgeuse.  So are you.

But, unlike the Earth, the gravitational pull exerted by a human is not
sufficient to cause a misjump, which was my point.

I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.

A rough back of envelope calculation would be that the acceleration due to
gravity at 100 diameters is 2.43e-04 ms^-2. Given a body with the same
density as the Earth, then we're looking at 5.56g per cubic centimetre, or
5560 kg per cubic metre. This gives us a solid, uniform sphere 156 metres in
radius and with a mass of 8.841e10 kg, or a displacement tonnage of about
1,178,000 dTons. Hollow the sphere out and it would change things, but I'd
say that as a rough rule of thumb, a vessel with equivalent g at its surface
is never likely to reach its destination ...

Andy Brick


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 09:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr 14 08:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net>

Any update on T20?

Does anyone know when we are likely to see the 'offending' article ?

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 09:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Apr 14 08:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
 <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020414155356.08d6b44c.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Andy Brick wrote:
> Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> gravity well, and you misjump.
> 
> Net result : you can have a J6 planet. But no one can tell where its
going.
> Let's call it Heisenberg.

But all ships generate their own gravity wells...

Not of that magnitude, but still.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 10:35:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Apr 14 09:35:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Contact for Alvin Plummer?
Message-ID: <qibjbu0n0ieulkqta2ce6cslh5a727u1lf@4ax.com>

One of his articles on Freelance Traveller was slightly corrupted (on my
original, dammit!), and I need to talk to him to get the information needed
to uncorrupt it.  Can anyone pass me his address (off-list, please), or ask
him to contact me?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 10:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Apr 14 09:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <robjbu0fqnq6n9dnqt5e35f7a8qulahh5m@4ax.com>

On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 15:12:04 +0100, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
wrote:

>Hullo
>
>> > Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own =
gravity
>> > simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating =
inside a
>> > gravity well, and you misjump.
>>
>> Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
>> Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>
>But, unlike the Earth, the gravitational pull exerted by a human is not
>sufficient to cause a misjump, which was my point.
>
>I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
>Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.
>
>A rough back of envelope calculation would be that the acceleration due =
to
>gravity at 100 diameters is 2.43e-04 ms^-2. Given a body with the same
>density as the Earth, then we're looking at 5.56g per cubic centimetre, =
or
>5560 kg per cubic metre. This gives us a solid, uniform sphere 156 =
metres in
>radius and with a mass of 8.841e10 kg, or a displacement tonnage of =
about
>1,178,000 dTons. Hollow the sphere out and it would change things, but =
I'd
>say that as a rough rule of thumb, a vessel with equivalent g at its =
surface
>is never likely to reach its destination ...

Not that I'm up on the necessary math, but I would be interested in
the tidal force counterpart of these calculations.  I was very
impressed by the correspondence that was found between the tidal force
at 100 diameters and the effects which are described in Traveller.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 10:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sun Apr 14 09:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
In-Reply-To: <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEHLDKAA.tml@downport.com>

visit www.TravellerRPG.com for official T20 info... as to the offending
article, were you speaking of yourself or was it some sort of slight aimed
at a certain segment of Traveller players? :p

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Si

Any update on T20?

Does anyone know when we are likely to see the 'offending' article ?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Apr 14 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <F123KlnZcjKJXHC1gsW0000fa6c@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
men, if you prefer)?"


Mr. Boleyn,

     You are correct, sir.  Women never produce new eggs, they carry their 
lifetime supply with them at all times.  Men on the other hand continually 
produce new reproductive materials and must get rid of the older stuff to 
make room for the new.  That in itself explains quite a bit about male 
behavior.
     So, a female may be caring damaged genetic material if she had been 
exposed at ANY TIME during her life.  Males, due to their constant 
production of genetic material, only run the risk of donating damaged 
material if the exposure has been in the recent past.
     GURPS, in Compendium II, handles this in the following manner.  If a 
female has a lifetime dose of 250 rads, her offspring, and any problems they 
may have, are entirely at the GM's discretion.  If a male has recieved a 
dose of 100 rads within the last week, the same rule applies.
     A lfietime dose can be thought of as a running total of exposure that 
NEVER heals, it never goes away.  A female PC that recieved 25 seperate ten 
rad doses over several years of game time may have easily survived the 
effects of each of those exposures.  The burns, blood problems, and whatnot 
may be long behind her, but her lifetime dose is now 250 rads and any of her 
offspring are at the GM's mercy.
     Realistic?  Yes.  "Fair"?  No, but then again life is never fair.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 12:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Apr 14 11:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] landgrab questions
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEDOGHAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3CB9CF31.40F7C89F@mindspring.com>

John-Martin wrote:


> I've claimed Biter and was working on by landgrab and I have a few questions
>
> What is the fleet number for the Imperial Sword World subsector fleet?

Flipping open the rebellion source book we find........There is none. The
nearest is Lunion 43, or Vilis 193. Oddly I see Fleet 208 is assigned to all the
way over in Five sisters. But none in the Sword Worlds.

>
> Where is it headquartered?

See above

>
> What is Lunion's fleet number?

See above

>
> Does it help out imperial forces in the Sword Worlds?

We have no forces in the Sword Worlds. Those are just nasty rumors and Sword
Worlder propaganda. Please, have another drink and a narco stick. Enjoy the
music.



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 12:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Apr 14 11:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Terran/Vilani conflict (Was: Deadliness of combat)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140512410.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3CB9CF94.4CB5EF74@mindspring.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

Forbidden Canon.
???!




--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 14:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 13:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <200204142037.NAA19289@molly.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Also, I have read several times in old Traveller works about 
>the "L-Hyd" tank (which seems to say "liquid hydrogen" and 
>not "water").  The description in the AHL supplement 
>distinctly refers to the tankage on the Fuel Deck as "L-Hyd".

Canon is clearly liquid hydrogen.
>
>There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were 
>topping off with LNG or L-Hyd.  If you were in atmosphere and 
>someone scored a Fuel hit with a laser weapon, I'm betting 
>that the ship's fuel tanks would explode.

Nope, no oxygen.  The fuel leak will almost certainly ignite, however.
>been a minor hit in space would be disastrous in atmosphere.  
>See what happened to the fuel tank on the shuttle when the 
>SRB played a flame on it.  One fuel hit in atmosphere and 
>WHAM.

That's because of having both liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen, which
makes for a very nice bomb.

>Also, I'm wondering what happens if the fuel tanks adjoin 
>crew spaces, as they do in so many deck plans.  Let's say you 
>depressurize before combat, and close bulkhead doors.  One 
>compartment or more could be filled with fuel if the ship is 
>hit in certain ways.  Equipment and personnel in these areas 
>would be instantly destroyed/killed by cryogenic liquid.  

Fuel tanks are probably double-walled.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 14:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 14 13:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 09:26:52AM -0400
References: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020414144128.A5149@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 09:26:52AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> Which made me dislike the "100 D" limit.  If I am at the 100 
> D limit for Earth (at earth's distance from Sol, which has 
> its own gravitational pull), what is the value of G?
> 
> Now let's compare that to the same value at 100 D from 
> Jupiter.  I would bet that it's different.

I'd assume that the 100D limit must have nothing to do with gravity,
but instead have to do, somehow, with the actual physical size of an
object.  Perhaps physical objects imprint themselves in jump space,
but do to its properties they imprint a far larger area.  Or
something:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`When you wake up in the morning, Pooh,' said Piglet at last,
`what's the first thing you say to yourself?'
`What's for breakfast?' said Pooh. `What do you say, Piglet?'
`I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?' said Piglet.
Pooh nodded thoughtfully. `It's the same thing,' he said.
                                            --A.A. Milne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 14:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 14 13:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>; from andy@exeus.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 03:12:04PM +0100
References: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020414144249.B5149@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 03:12:04PM +0100, Andy Brick wrote:
> 
> I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
> Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.

I believe the rule is any object larger than 1/2 mile will trigger
jump precipation.  So someone needs to calculate the gravity of, say,
a 1/2 mile wide rocky body.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
It's better to have a weapon and not need it than to need a weapon and
not have it.                                     --Sir Clarence Worley

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-lethal weapons in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <B8B628F4.2D246%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20414.132135.5B6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 3/14/02 9:42 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>> The speed of sound is around 1200 m/s. That means that a 10 Hz sound
>> wave has a wavelngth of 120 meters. A quarter wavelength "antenna" is
>> going to be 30 meters.
>
> Oops.  I think you meant 330 m/s.  I wish it were 1200m/s.  It would make
> silencing rifles a lot easier.

Ok, I seem to have screwed up a step in converting from the figure I
could recall (mph) to the one I wanted (m/s).

> And does sound really propagate like radio waves?  It's really just SIT
> between air molecules.

It's a wave phenomenon. It has wavelength and the wavelength affects
how it propogates. Wavelengtyh, frequency and speed of propogation have
a *fixed* relationship.

I think it's 

L * f = v

L = wavelength
f = frequency
v = propogation velocity

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:02:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:02:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204141224.EAT00139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20414.133137.4r5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Care to resend this in *text* instead of base64 encoding?

In mail John T. Kwon writes:

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> L2xpc3RzLnRyYXZlbGxlcmNlbnRyYWwuY29tL3BpcGVybWFpbC9jb3JyaWRvci8NCg==
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:02:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:02:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <200204141227.EAT00280@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20414.133330.3v1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> (Leonard Erickson)  says
>>
>>I don't recall the ways that (for example) the Bethe "solar 
>>phoenix" reaction (which involves carbon as a catalyst) 
>>works. 
>>
>
> I thought that the CNO cycle was a relatively "slow" rate 
> reaction, even if it had a lower threshold to get started.

In stars it takes a long time. In a fusion reactor that can run at
higher temps and pressures, who knows?

> Also, isn't the p-p reaction the intended reaction for the 
> Bussard ramjet?  I keep hearing that the p-p reaction is more 
> difficult to start thant the D-T reaction.  And if we're 
> going to make it so difficult, why not just use He-3?

p-p requires higher temperatures and pressures. But the fuel is so much
more abundant that if you can do it, it'd be *vastly* preferred.

Not only is helium-3 hard to accumulate, it's harder to store. Liquid
helium temps are something like two orders of magnitude harder to
maintain than liquid hydrogen temps (temperature differences are
logarithmic, not arithmetic. That is, what matters isn't the difference
in degrees, but rather the *ratio* of the abosolute temperatures. So
the difference between 4 K and 20 K is the "same" as the difference
between 300 K (room temp) and 1500 K (halfway between the melting
point of copper and that of iron))

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:03:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:03:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20414.134105.6N5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Robert A. Uhl" says
>>
>>Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting 
>>a pull on Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>
> Which made me dislike the "100 D" limit.  If I am at the 100 
> D limit for Earth (at earth's distance from Sol, which has 
> its own gravitational pull), what is the value of G?
>
> Now let's compare that to the same value at 100 D from 
> Jupiter.  I would bet that it's different.

At 100 diameters from a "rocky" type planet, the *tidal forces* will be
the same. That is, the rate of change of the strength of the gravity
field will match.

It's easy to show that any force that is the same at a given number of
*diameters* from a sphere of a given density has to be one that various
as the inverse *cube* of the distance. Which tidal forces do.

The tidal forces can also be thought of as representing how sharply
"curved" the space in that area is, which fits nicely with the jump
drive. If it is trying to "bend" space, then it's "obvious" that it'll
be more reliable if it isn't fighting the bends that already exist.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:03:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:03:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20414.134634.3h0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any
>> upper limit
>> ("that's no moon...")
>
> Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> gravity well, and you misjump.

*Everything* generates its own gravity field. 

So ships have to correct for self gravity (and possibily for their
internal gravity fields as well) anyway. A planet-ship would just have
to make bigger corrections.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:04:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hullo
>
>> > Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
>> > simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
>> > gravity well, and you misjump.
>>
>> Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
>> Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>
> But, unlike the Earth, the gravitational pull exerted by a human is not
> sufficient to cause a misjump, which was my point.
>
> I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
> Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.

Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
todal forces are the same.

Inverse *cube* law.

> A rough back of envelope calculation would be that the acceleration due to
> gravity at 100 diameters is 2.43e-04 ms^-2.

And the tidal forces are 

a/l = G*M /r^3

a = acceleration
l = distance for center of object experiencing tidal forces
G = Newton's gravitational constant
M = mass of object exerting tidal forces
r = distance from center of object exerting tidal forces.

I suspect that you'll find that the forces involved at 100 diameters
from Earth are similar to those at the hull of a fairly small ship.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:04:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:04:37 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <003a01c1e3b7$e7bc9260$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20414.135536.3A4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot
>> of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and
>> ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how
>> it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only
>> lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure -
>> the fuel is subdivided into several large tanks, perhaps more
>> on large combat vessels - but not on a small ship, which
>> might have at most two separate tanks.  It would be hard to
>> effectively pump fuel from a holed tank, if it was able to
>> retain fuel at all after the hit.
>
> How about self sealing linings around the tanks... the fuel loss is that
> lost before the hole gets sealed...

And *how* are they going to self-seal? Liquid hydrogen is at 20 Kelvin.
(20 centrigrade degress above absolute zero, around -424 F)

*Any* lining is going to be frozen solid at that temp. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <20414.133330.3v1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020414213134.EB02127A53@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/14/02 at 01:33 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
said:

>> Also, isn't the p-p reaction the intended reaction for the 
>> Bussard ramjet?  I keep hearing that the p-p reaction is more 
>> difficult to start thant the D-T reaction.  And if we're 
>> going to make it so difficult, why not just use He-3?

>p-p requires higher temperatures and pressures. But the fuel is so
>much more abundant that if you can do it, it'd be *vastly* preferred.

>Not only is helium-3 hard to accumulate, it's harder to store. Liquid
>helium temps are something like two orders of magnitude harder to
>maintain than liquid hydrogen temps (temperature differences are
>logarithmic, not arithmetic. That is, what matters isn't the
>difference in degrees, but rather the *ratio* of the abosolute
>temperatures. So the difference between 4 K and 20 K is the "same" as
>the difference between 300 K (room temp) and 1500 K (halfway between
>the melting point of copper and that of iron))

My favorite, non-standard, fusion reaction is p-B(11). Boron-11 isn't
*all* that rare, and with the advanced plasma, magnetic and gravitic
controls of the TU it should be quite doable.  This reaction results
in almost no hard radiation, and electricity can be directly drawn off
the resultant charged particles.  

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help Needed
In-Reply-To: <B8B62CD4.2D26D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20414.140952.0s8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 3/14/02 9:16 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>>> get me one of those nifty adapter cards for that if I understand
>>> 'hot-swappable' correctly).
>> 
>> Mine isn't hot-swappable either.
>> 
>> Though I have to note that with IDE that's a tall order to start with.
>> With SCSI it's a bit easier.
>> 
>> The big problem is that the OS may not recognize the swap.
>
> If it's truly hot swappable, that means you are running some kind of RAID,
> too.  I remember seeing the shocked expression on the face of a brang new
> tech when I blithely yanked the drive out of out Resilient server. Just for
> yucks I pulled a processor too.  This while the machine was happily serving
> files, routing email and all that king of good stuff.

With some OSes you can swap a drive while the system is running, you
just have to do a "dismount" before pulling the drive and a "Mount"
after putting in a replacement.

When I finally get my Netware server upgraded I'll be doing that
occasionally with a tape drive or a scsi drive in a mobile rack.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:05:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:05:23 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020415080419.A22995@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I keep hearing people say that the fuel is carried in the form of
> liquid water and converted at the last minute.

I think you keep hearing just *me* :)


>  This would seem to be inefficient, as a substantial portion of your
> tankage would not be usable fuel.

Tankage *mass*, yes.  However, water has 50% more hydrogen per unit
*volume* than does liquid hydrogen.  As an additional bonus, it is
*much* easier to store.  As a further bonus again, you can drink it,
and breathe the "waste" after refining.

Since ship operating costs are directly proportional to volume (not
mass), this works out much more efficient.  However, it will reduce
acceleration on full tanks somewhat.


>  Liquid methane (liquified natural gas) might be a bit better than
> water,

Except that it is harder to store, more hazardous, no use in life
support, less plentiful, and the waste (carbon) is much less useful.
The same applies to ammonia.  It turns out that the best figure for
hydrogen per unit volume (for common substances) is a highly
concentrated ammonia solution.  The waste product from the refining
process is an oxygen / nitrogen mix.  However it's much worse from a
handling point of view, and you can't just suck it up from oceans or
ice moonlets.


> Also, I have read several times in old Traveller works about 
> the "L-Hyd" tank (which seems to say "liquid hydrogen" and 
> not "water").

It does.

In my ship designs, ships still have a LHyd tank, because the jump
drives need a *lot* of pure hydrogen really fast when entering jump;
far more than a fuel refiner can deliver in such a short period of
time.  Canon is unfortunately unclear as to *how much* fuel used by
jump is consumed right at the start, and the subject is a recurring
"hot topic" (look up "drop tanks" or "Annic Nova" in the archives for
a sample).  IMTU, initiating jump requires about 1-5% of the ship's
volume in jump fuel, the same again on re-entry, with the rest
consumed slowly during jump.  The last can be delivered by refiners
from water tanks, and provides the crew with breathing air and
drinking water.


> There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were topping
> off with LNG or L-Hyd.

No -- there's nothing for it to burn with if you're fuelling at an
up-port dock, and even many planets have insufficient oxygen to
support a flame.  There would be a cryogenic hazard though,
particularly with LHyd.


> See what happened to the fuel tank on the shuttle when the 
> SRB played a flame on it.  One fuel hit in atmosphere and 
> WHAM.

That's because the shuttle contains huge amounts of cryogenic
propellant *and* oxidiser, in a convenient ready-to-mix form.


> One compartment or more could be filled with fuel if the ship is hit
> in certain ways.  Equipment and personnel in these areas would be
> instantly destroyed/killed by cryogenic liquid.

Yep -- cryogenic liquids are dangerous.  And of course a *minor*
internal hydrogen leak could cause a fire once you reintroduce oxygen.


> I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot 
> of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and 
> ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how 
> it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only 
> lose a small percentage of the fuel.

That's what I assume.  You don't want a big open tank of liquid in the
ship when you're doing 6g maneuvers and rapid rotations, either --
even liquids as light as LHyd have a *lot* of mass in large volumes.
So IMTU fuel tankage is heavily compartmentalised even on small ships.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:05:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:05:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Terran/Vilani conflict (Was: Deadliness of combat)
In-Reply-To: <3CB9CF94.4CB5EF74@mindspring.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140512410.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020414145753.009e8ae0@mindspring.com>

At 02:51 PM 4/14/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>
>Forbidden Canon.
>???!

Stuff published by Digest Group.  I'm not getting into that mud patch 
again, but suffice it to say that the owner of the copyright wants a 
ridiculous amount of money for it, and as a result, those of us writing for 
Traveller have to avoid things that appeared solely in DGP books and magazines.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020415081233.B22995@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> And the tidal forces are 
> a/l = G*M /r^3

If we use T for tide and rho for density, then a spherical body
induces a tidal stretching of
 T = 2 G rho (r/R)^3.

This more clearly shows that for a body of given density, the tidal
strength depends only on the ratio of diameter to distance.


> I suspect that you'll find that the forces involved at 100 diameters
> from Earth are similar to those at the hull of a fairly small ship.

So the size of the ship is irrelevant -- what matters is its density.
Suffice it to say that every ship in Traveller has amply more than
enough density to give a higher tidal force at 1 diameter than Earth
does at 10 diameters, let alone 100D.

Apparently only ships larger than 1km will actually precipitate other
ships out from jump, but I suspect ships entering jump should indeed
use the normal misjump rules for proximity to any other body
comparable in size to their own.  (You don't want a speck of dust to
cause a misjump :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-lethal weapons in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1016132100.8505.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20414.163834.3i9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>> 
>> And my "sodium grenades" will tend to seal the edges of the plastic to
>> the helmet.
>
> If you can reliably spray enough sodium to cause a problem, you can also
> probably hit them with a comparable amount of high explosive and kill them
> outright.

In a vacuum, you don't have to "spray". The atoms essentially travel in
straight lines from the dispenser until they hit something. At which
point they stop. 

It doesn't take a very thick coating (a few atoms thick) to make it
hard to so, and hard for the cooling system on your space suit to get
rid of the heat you are building up.

In a vacuum, high eplosives are much less effective, because they don't
have air to conduct the shock. All they have to ork with is the gases
they produce themselves. And a blast strong enough to cause trouble is
strong enough to damage gear in the compartment. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:26:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:26:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
References: <20020414132903.D582627B44@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c1e414$9dbef1a0$bdb18b90@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
> closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
> travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
> builds until it collapses the wormholes.

No surprises there.  And of course, since the possibility to use them for
FTL implies the possibility of using them for time travel, you can't use
them for FTL, etc.

Fortunately, we are dealing with science fiction, not real life, so this
analysis is hereby declared to be incomplete.  This also explains why "FTL
radio" isn't possible.  Oh, and traversing wormholes takes about 170 hours
or so, too.  : )

Incidentally, Yaskoydray definitely could have time travel.  Creating pocket
universes implies being able to do really, really interesting things to
space-time.  In fact, it might be possible to travel from the MT/TNE
universe to the GT one.  IMTU, Avery did!  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
Message-ID: <200204150043.RAA22864@molly.iii.com>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:

>From: Leonard Erickson
>> It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
>> closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
>> travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
>> builds until it collapses the wormholes.
>
>No surprises there.  And of course, since the possibility to use them for
>FTL implies the possibility of using them for time travel, you can't use
>them for FTL, etc.

Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.

In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
wormholes have to share a reference frame.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEAIDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
> and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
> (assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
> todal forces are the same.

(Tries it in Excel - ) Neat trick - hadn't seen this before - though I
suspect it only works because I used a  uniform density, and since that
won't be the case in the "real" (read:more random/realistic simulation of
the) universe, then using tidal forces as a basis for misjumps will vary the
rule either side of 100 diameters - for example, raise the density, and the
100 diameter limit drops to ninety something diameters.

But it doesn't really matter what causes the misjump effect. The fact
remains that a given mass will cause some form of gravitational effect that
invokes a misjump, and when you build a starship of that mass it should be
affected by its own gravitational effect - and hence misjump.

The maths/details don't really matter here - the concept is the thing. There
should be an upper limit of some kind on starship size imposed by the
misjump rule.

Andy B.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.346 / Virus Database: 194 - Release Date: 10/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com>

"Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com> writes:

>But it doesn't really matter what causes the misjump effect. The fact
>remains that a given mass will cause some form of gravitational effect that
>invokes a misjump, and when you build a starship of that mass it should be
>affected by its own gravitational effect - and hence misjump.

Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external fields.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 18:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
> trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
> to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external fields.

Or, that misjumps are poorly thought out.

They don't work if you use g, the gravitational field acceleration because
it varies so much.
They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
themselves.

So, has anyone got a better explanation of why 100 diameters, 10 diameters
etc are so very bad ?

Andy B


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 19:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 18:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020415114537.A23557@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Brick wrote:
> They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
> themselves.

Isn't that what the jump grid is for; making sure that everything
contained within it is properly prepared for jump?  I would not be at
all surprised if part of the function of the grid was to cancel the
gravity due to the mass of the ship.  Gravity from external objects
can't be cancelled because you don't have a grid surrounding them.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 19:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Apr 14 18:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEHDCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Ortillery?
>
>I saw it in Dirtside, a game to go with Full Thrust.
>
>But I may have seen it in an SF novel before.

I think it's in Hammer's Slammers, by David Drake -- but it may even have
appeared in Gordon Dickson's Dorsai books.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 20:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sun Apr 14 19:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of malfunction?
References: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com> <20020414114830.26705bd4.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <DAV40aODv8h1ccBHuGI0000737d@hotmail.com>

> How would this kind of problem affect gauss/railgun type weapons?

<shrug>  Some earlier gauss weapon discussion seemed to indicate that GWs
would have to be pretty heavily shielded.  So maybe nothing.


> Not that any PCs would try bringing any of them through security, mind
> you...

Good heavens, no! <g>

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Sun Apr 14 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020413200302.009ee460@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CBA3FFD.3090802@yarranet.net.au>

Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll 
never get my Tigress at this rate.


Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 20:55:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Apr 14 19:55:06 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEHDCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Also, I'm wondering what happens if the fuel tanks adjoin
>crew spaces, as they do in so many deck plans.  Let's say you
>depressurize before combat, and close bulkhead doors.  One
[deletion]
>I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot
>of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and
>ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how
>it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only
>lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure -

I usually design deck plans with a fuel envelope around the ship.  That
accounts for the large number of fuel hits in High Guard.  I assume that the
fuel tank is divided into ten compartments of equal volume, so that each
fuel hit blows a hole in one or more compartments.

If you get both internal explosion and fuel hit results, the problem you
describe may occur.  In a High Guard fleet action, I wouldn't worry about
it, but I will take your suggestion to heart in the case of combat involving
a ship with the PCs, or a ship that they encounter.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 21:13:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Apr 14 20:13:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134634.3h0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
 <20414.134634.3h0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020415031235.2864d227.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> *Everything* generates its own gravity field. 
> 
> So ships have to correct for self gravity (and possibily for their
> internal gravity fields as well) anyway. A planet-ship would just have
> to make bigger corrections.

Semi-scientifical handwave follows:

The jump grid acts in a manner similiar to an electrical potential cage
(kind of like grounding the ship to a known neutral potential). Thus, the
ship itself doesn't disturb the jump drive's operation. Other objects,
however, aren't grounded in this fashion, and do disturb it, causing
misjumps etc.

Think of the disturbance as a lightning bolt hitting a metal cage (but
from the inside of the cage/ship). The discharge travels along the cage
(jump grid), but doesn't pass through it.

Comments?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 21:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr 14 20:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CBA3FFD.3090802@yarranet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20020415032922.5193B27A6E@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:

>Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll 
>never get my Tigress at this rate.

Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
level) per month!  <g>


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 22:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Apr 14 21:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>

On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 02:06:05 +0100, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
wrote:

>> Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
>> trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
>> to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external =
fields.
>
>Or, that misjumps are poorly thought out.
>
>They don't work if you use g, the gravitational field acceleration =
because
>it varies so much.
>They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
>themselves.
><SNIP>

Are you certain that traditional Traveller ships will create a tidal
force equivalent to a planet at 10 or even 100 diameters?  I was under
the impression that their mass wasn't sufficient to generate that
level of tidal force.  Further, I wouldn't think a body could exert
tidal force upon itself.

I would welcome anyone doing the math to demonstrate where the tidal
force associated with a planet's 10 diameter or 100 diameter limit
would fall for 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000 ton ships.
If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force upon
itself (and I do doubt that greatly), do these tidal gradients fall
outside a thus displacement sphere (the minimum surface area)?

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 22:26:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 14 21:26:09 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415032922.5193B27A6E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/14/02 8:29 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

> On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:
> 
>> Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll
>> never get my Tigress at this rate.
> 
> Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
> level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
> low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
> level) per month!  <g>

Which makes a steward a well paid individual indeed.  That's about
$140,160/year in adjusted dollars.  The Pilot is raking in about 210 grand a
year in 2002 US dollars.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 23:04:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 22:04:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> I would welcome anyone doing the math to demonstrate where the tidal
> force associated with a planet's 10 diameter or 100 diameter limit
> would fall for 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000 ton ships.

I'll assume that the 100D limit corresponds to a tidal tension
of 4e-13 s^-2, and hence that the 10D gradient is 4e-10 s^-2.

Let us suppose that each ship is spherical with an average density of
500 kg/m^3 (i.e. about 7 tonnes/dton).

Displacement  Diameter  Mass    10D limit  100D limit
(dtons)       (m)       (Mg)    (m)        (m)
100           13.8      685     61.1       611
1000          29.7      6850    131.7      1317
10000         64.0      68500   283.8      2838
100000        138       685000  611.4      6114

As you can see, the hull surface is far inside the 10D limit.

The formulae are pretty simple: mass = density * volume,
volume = pi D^3 / 6  for a sphere,
T = 2 G M / R^3.


> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force
> upon itself

You are.  This is very important in determining Roche's limit, for
example.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 23:15:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr 14 22:15:12 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/14/02 at 09:24 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 4/14/02 8:29 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

>> On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:
>> 
>>> Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll
>>> never get my Tigress at this rate.
>> 
>> Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
>> level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
>> low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
>> level) per month!  <g>

>Which makes a steward a well paid individual indeed.  That's about
>$140,160/year in adjusted dollars.  The Pilot is raking in about 210
>grand a year in 2002 US dollars.

Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
OTU games.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 23:49:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 22:49:11 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
> OTU games.

You don't think it makes sense that people from highly technologically
advanced societies are richer than modern-day Earthlings?  Especially
starship crew, who have to live in cramped conditions in a hostile
environment for weeks at a time?

Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
than bus drivers.  And people in the US generally get paid a lot more
than people in most other countries for comparable occupations.  So to
my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from high-tech
societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20414.230338.5J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 02:06:05 +0100, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
>>> trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
>>> to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external =
> fields.
>>
>>Or, that misjumps are poorly thought out.
>>
>>They don't work if you use g, the gravitational field acceleration =
> because
>>it varies so much.
>>They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
>>themselves.
>><SNIP>
>
> Are you certain that traditional Traveller ships will create a tidal
> force equivalent to a planet at 10 or even 100 diameters?  I was under
> the impression that their mass wasn't sufficient to generate that
> level of tidal force.  Further, I wouldn't think a body could exert
> tidal force upon itself.

No, but tidal force is a (effectively) a measure of how severely space
is curved. 

Acceleration due to gravity is the "slope" of the gravity well. Tidal
forces are the rate at which the slop changes.

> I would welcome anyone doing the math to demonstrate where the tidal
> force associated with a planet's 10 diameter or 100 diameter limit
> would fall for 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000 ton ships.
> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force upon
> itself (and I do doubt that greatly), do these tidal gradients fall
> outside a thus displacement sphere (the minimum surface area)?

The problem is that we need to know the *mass* of the ship, not the
displacement. A "100 ton" ship occupies the same *volume* as 100 tons
of liquid hydrogen. It may mass more or less.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:15:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:15:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEAIDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20414.225006.1X5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>> and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>> (assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>> todal forces are the same.
>
> (Tries it in Excel - ) Neat trick - hadn't seen this before - though I
> suspect it only works because I used a  uniform density, and since that
> won't be the case in the "real" (read:more random/realistic simulation of
> the) universe, then using tidal forces as a basis for misjumps will vary the
> rule either side of 100 diameters - for example, raise the density, and the
> 100 diameter limit drops to ninety something diameters.

Thing is, the density of "rocky" planets (as opposed to gas giants and
the iceballs you find in the outer system) is pretty uniform. 

And for gas giants and iceballs the "critical" tidal force level would
occur well *within* 100 diameters. 

So if there's any sort of safety factor built in to the "100 diameter"
rule, it'll work fine except in *really* oddball situations (say trying
to jump close to a *big* nickel-iron asteroid).

> But it doesn't really matter what causes the misjump effect. The fact
> remains that a given mass will cause some form of gravitational effect that
> invokes a misjump, and when you build a starship of that mass it should be
> affected by its own gravitational effect - and hence misjump.
>
> The maths/details don't really matter here - the concept is the thing. There
> should be an upper limit of some kind on starship size imposed by the
> misjump rule.

The details *do* matter, because the forces at the *hull* of even a
small ship will *exceed* those from a planet at 100 diameters. That's a
*unavoidable*. 

So a ship *has* to be able to compensate for the forces generated by
its own mass.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:15:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:15:55 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020415080419.A22995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20414.231128.0e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>  Liquid methane (liquified natural gas) might be a bit better than
>> water,
>
> Except that it is harder to store, more hazardous, no use in life
> support, less plentiful, and the waste (carbon) is much less useful.
> The same applies to ammonia.  It turns out that the best figure for
> hydrogen per unit volume (for common substances) is a highly
> concentrated ammonia solution.  The waste product from the refining
> process is an oxygen / nitrogen mix.  However it's much worse from a
> handling point of view, and you can't just suck it up from oceans or
> ice moonlets.

Actually, if you are out at the distance of saturn or farther, that
"ice" is apt to be a mix of ammonia, methane and water.

>> There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were topping
>> off with LNG or L-Hyd.
>
> No -- there's nothing for it to burn with if you're fuelling at an
> up-port dock, and even many planets have insufficient oxygen to
> support a flame.  There would be a cryogenic hazard though,
> particularly with LHyd.

Well, liquid hydrogen doesn't respond well to large inputs of energy
either. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:16:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <004d01c1e414$9dbef1a0$bdb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <20414.231508.7E7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: Leonard Erickson
>> It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
>> closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
>> travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
>> builds until it collapses the wormholes.
>
> No surprises there.  And of course, since the possibility to use them for
> FTL implies the possibility of using them for time travel, you can't use
> them for FTL, etc.

Not necessarily. 

There are lots of FTL trips you can take without having actually
transfer of things or information into someone's past. 

You just have to be careful. And it does make it easy to shut down a
wormhole (or a series of them) if you are desperate.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20414.231128.0e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415080419.A22995@freeman.little-possums.net> <20414.231128.0e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020415175248.A24097@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, if you are out at the distance of saturn or farther, that
> "ice" is apt to be a mix of ammonia, methane and water.

Yes, quite true.  Water is more prevalent further in, which I would
guess is where ships are more likely to want to go.  Most spacecraft
in my Traveller universe don't scoop gas giants for hydrogen unless
really desperate; they either slurp it up from oceans or grab it from
icy moons or other bodies.  Sometimes that means throwing away excess
methane and ammonia because they don't have appropriate type of
tankage to hold it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 07:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon Apr 15 06:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CBAD3C8.FEAB4008@attbi.com>


Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
> than bus drivers.  

Um, no they don't. Maybe half if the drivers aren't unionized.

> And people in the US generally get paid a lot more
> than people in most other countries for comparable occupations.  

Oh so true, even more so here in the Peoples Republic of California.

> So to
> my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from high-tech
> societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.

Yah, but like most Mariners today most of that wage comes from
overtime.

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 08:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Apr 15 07:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226C0@USCHM203>

Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term =
>"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
>  =20
> The origin is bugging me....

It definitely goes back to at least the mid to late 80s. I thought that I
might have first seen it in "Striker", which would be around 1981 or so, but
I could be mistaken. As someone else mentioned, the term might have appeared
in a sci-fi novel even earlier.

Brian L. Hurrel
ICS Analyst
EDS
(973) 682-5578


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CBAD3C8.FEAB4008@attbi.com>; from wmacdude@attbi.com on Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 06:21:12AM -0700
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net> <3CBAD3C8.FEAB4008@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20020415092359.A9480@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 06:21:12AM -0700, Evyn MacDude wrote:
> 
> > Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
> > than bus drivers.  

In Denver a driver starts at $12.xx and hour--let's say $13.  They
probably work less than 8 hours a day, but let's say they do.  That's
$104/day, or $540/wk.  Assuming two unpaid weeks of vacation a year,
that's $26,000/yr.  What's the starting rate for a submariner?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism
to decadence without touching civilization.               --John O'Hara

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <001e01c1e492$a431a680$1f9e15ac@warrior>

Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for those kinds of
speciallized skills... I mean how much does a Airliner pilot make now
days...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Little" <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 1:47 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?


> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> > Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
> > OTU games.
>
> You don't think it makes sense that people from highly technologically
> advanced societies are richer than modern-day Earthlings?  Especially
> starship crew, who have to live in cramped conditions in a hostile
> environment for weeks at a time?
>
> Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
> than bus drivers.  And people in the US generally get paid a lot more
> than people in most other countries for comparable occupations.  So to
> my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from high-tech
> societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.
>
>
> - Tim
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:43:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:43:06 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415092359.A9480@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEIJDKAA.tml@downport.com>

Or how about: what is the full-package cost for an experienced, commercial
submarine officer?

Hmm...

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Robert A. Uhl

In Denver a driver starts at $12.xx and hour--let's say $13.  They
probably work less than 8 hours a day, but let's say they do.  That's
$104/day, or $540/wk.  Assuming two unpaid weeks of vacation a year,
that's $26,000/yr.  What's the starting rate for a submariner?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:43:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:43:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

Maybe I'm just too scientifically dumb to follow the
conversation and am therefore saying the same thing
that has already been said, but...

Doesn't a starship (or Jump enabled planet for that
matter) exert gravity inward to it's center?  Isn't
that a different force than the planet or ship or GG
or Star that is closer than 100D?

I always thought the 100D gravity (or whatever) limit
as being more of a sheering force on the Jumping
vessel.  The vessels internal gravity (or whatever)
just isn't sheering on itself.

I'm not all that scientific in these areas, so I may
be wrong or completely invalid, but that is my
handwave. :)

Paul


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 10:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Mon Apr 15 09:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <F209D689cMhtTYDGGfA000197d5@hotmail.com>

One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
than they pay out in claims.

If you are a large enough organization, like a Mega-Corp,
then your insurable losses from any particular event should
be low enough (as a percentage of your total income) that it
will be a better option for you to absorb the losses as they
occur rather than continuously pay out insurance premiums.
You'll "self-insure", by keeping cash on hand enough to cover emergencies 
and accidents.  This is a good way for a large
enough company to do business, since this "cash on hand",
while it's on hand, can be earning for the company while
insurance premiums are gone.

If a catastrophe happens that destroys more value of your
megacorp assets than you would have been paying out in
insurance premiums, then chances are a war caused it - and
insurance companies are noted for not paying out claims
on damage caused by acts of war anyway.

So, you'll have two tiers of starship out there.  The
small or independent operator, who buys insurance (since a
single event will likely put him out of business otherwise).
The large corp, which may self-insure (that is, put money
aside to cover replacement, rather than pay out premiums).

If most of a starport's traffic is megacorp vessels,
then that starport won't have the insurance industry
involved as much with starport safety requirements.
The megacorp may have to post a bond of some sort, but
this bond may be a trivial formality if the megacorp
is in bed with the local starport authority...which they
probably will be, the megacorp likely built the bed,
washed the linens and hired the nubile young bedwarmers.

The small independent operator may have to post a bond
of sorts to gain access to a starport as well.  This bond
may well be posted by the independent operator's insurance
carrier on behalf of all the carrier's clients, with the
insurance carrier requiring operators to meet certain
safety guidelines to get coverage and access to the bond.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 10:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon Apr 15 09:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
Message-ID: <OF79538278.A1B0E48C-ON85256B9C.005AE8D9@pheaa.org>

has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a line at
wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.

thanks

Bill


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 10:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 09:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
Message-ID: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Here I go again. Please don't kill me  :-)

Right now I'm adding population generation to my script.

Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake  ;-)

"That's no moon"

I could see people turning a small moon into swiss cheese and living in
it, but at that point it will cease to be a moon and begin to be a space
station built using an asteroid hull.

Are there any good reasons not to use asteroids or small moons as hulls
for space stations? It would be a lot cheaper, and easier to expand (to a
certain limit). Just dig a few more tunnels.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204151701.ECX05851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Christopher Pratt says
>
>Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for 
>those kinds of speciallized skills... I mean how much does a 
>Airliner pilot make now days...
>
It's not as though a pilot today has to know as much as they 
used to.  Celestial navigation? LORAN? Dead reckoning? Nope.  
If you can use a GPS and know how to use the flight computer, 
it's just not as difficult as it used to be.  In fact, 
there's a lot to the handling of current aircraft that is 
done by the computer. It "helps" you, and you don't even 
notice that it's doing so.

Mostly, pilots are there to try and land the plane if 
something goes wrong.  There is little technical reason at 
this point why we could not design pilotless aircraft - in 
fact, there are compelling safety reasons to do so.  There 
are some FAA people I talked to who say that sometime in the 
next 20 years, they are going to try and fully automate 
everything from takeoff to landing (some aircraft are already 
capable of this).  At that point, it is questionable what you 
would need a pilot for.  He would be a glorified bus driver.

ObTrav:  What is a pilot, anyway?  Doesn't a pilot largely 
perform naviagational tasks?  In movies, yeah, fighter pilot 
city - just like WW II (image of Leia pointing and 
saying "star destroyer" -- good thing we spent all that money 
on radar when she can just point out the window).  But IMTU - 
well, there's an ability to takeoff and land, but in major 
starports, that could be automated.  Docking maneuvers?  Once 
again, probably safer if automated.  A pilot is -- really a 
coordinator -- making all of the ship's systems work 
together, and making decisions about where to go and how.

Like a navigator, with wings.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018890322.7515.ajackson@ping>

Jens Rydholm writes:
> Here I go again. Please don't kill me  :-)
> 
> Right now I'm adding population generation to my script.
> 
> Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
> than 100 miles to have a population?

Well, in habitats sure.  Thermal effects put a practical limit of around a
million people times diameter squared (and the moon will glow in infrared), 
but that's not terribly limiting.

> Are there any good reasons not to use asteroids or small moons as hulls
> for space stations? It would be a lot cheaper, and easier to expand (to a
> certain limit). Just dig a few more tunnels.

Well, you want a solid asteroid as opposed to a gravel pile, but given that
traveller has gravetics for artificial gravity, it's practical enough.  Doubt
that the cost differences would be huge, however.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <F68hRaUMNGCXWGmQyt500005973@hotmail.com>

From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>

     "In Denver a driver starts at $12.xx and hour--let's say $13.  They
probably work less than 8 hours a day, but let's say they do.  That's
$104/day, or $540/wk.  Assuming two unpaid weeks of vacation a year,
that's $26,000/yr.  What's the starting rate for a submariner?"


Mr. Uhl,

     Good point, and let's not forget benefits.  Most employers who  don't 
provide benefits tend to pay slightly higher salaries.  Please note, I'm 
talking about skilled positions in this context and not minimum wage 
Wal-Mart meat puppets.
     Give Mr. Kramden above a family medical policy, a dental plan, life 
insurance, and employer contributions to a 401(K) and/or pension plan, and 
his "earnings" increase by another $10,000/yr or so.
     The "March Harrier" and her ilk are not going to provide any of these 
"bennies" at all.  In order to compete in the same labor market as the 
mega-corps, smaller outfits will offer slightly higher salaries.
     The Wal-Marts of the future will still have the upper hand when it 
comes to hiring floor moppers however.(If we still waste human labor on such 
tasks that is.)  Just like today, Wal-Mart's inclusion of benefits in their 
compensation package will keep their supply of min-wage types bountiful as 
opposed to the corner "Quik-E-Mart."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <F55WYIgoFT3kMUVfNIJ0000272d@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>Mostly, pilots are there to try and land the plane if
>something goes wrong.  There is little technical reason at
>this point why we could not design pilotless aircraft - in
>fact, there are compelling safety reasons to do so.  There
>are some FAA people I talked to who say that sometime in the
>next 20 years, they are going to try and fully automate
>everything from takeoff to landing (some aircraft are already
>capable of this).  At that point, it is questionable what you
>would need a pilot for.  He would be a glorified bus driver.

I have read where the F-22 is described as the Air Force's "last" manned 
fighter.

Also, apparently the thing that replaced the SR71 is not manned.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204151758.ECZ05255@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>
>I have read where the F-22 is described as the Air 
>Force's "last" manned fighter.
>
>Also, apparently the thing that replaced the SR71 is not 
>manned.
>

In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your 
starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local 
stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au> <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>

Si wrote:

> Any update on T20?
>
> Does anyone know when we are likely to see the 'offending' article ?
>
> Si
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

oops,

I sincerely apologise to everyone involved in the T20 project.  My
forgetting to include a 'smiley' totally changed the emphasis of the
message and made it seem negative.  IT WAS NOT MEANT TO BE, as I am
really looking forward to T20.  for those of you who are not aware of
the Open Gaming licence, using the d20 system means that everything is
(to a significant degree) interchangeable.  This means that (with only a
little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.

:-)

Si




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <F209D689cMhtTYDGGfA000197d5@hotmail.com>
References: <F209D689cMhtTYDGGfA000197d5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020415201231.2a376fbc.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Walt Smith wrote:
> One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
> only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
> than they pay out in claims.
<snip>

A very nice post indeed. I don't really have anything to add, but I'll
just note that the post didn't disappear in the dreaded black hole of
quality. It was archived on my harddrive  :-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
In-Reply-To: <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
 <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net> <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <20020415201431.3145d14b.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Si wrote:
> little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
> them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
> terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.

Kind of like GURPS  ;-)

I am also just kidding. I probably won't purchase the main T20 book, but
one can never have too much background material  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
Message-ID: <OF66D276C9.2DAD1A83-ON85256B9C.006477EE@pheaa.org>





<snip>
> little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
> them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
> terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.
</snip>

Im really looking forward to this. i got an order in at my FLGS already 8)

Bill






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
Message-ID: <200204151824.EDB00561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm just hoping for a better skill resolution system (hoping 
for a better combat system may be a forlorn one).
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <200204151824.EDB00561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB1C87.D6550A25@virgin.net>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> I'm just hoping for a better skill resolution system (hoping
> for a better combat system may be a forlorn one).
> ________________
> "Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

The skill systems should be (AFAIK) similar to that of 3e.  Namely a
skill modifier is equal to the number of ranks you have bought in a
skill plus a modifier based upon the skills determining characteristic.

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An interesting product - anything like this in Traveller?
References: <200204141322.EAV00067@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB1D32.5000002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> In any ship or vehicle design sequence, is there anything 
> like this?  It seems to be an internal add-on that reduces 
> the potential for internal explosions.
> 
> http://www.blastgard.net/outlook.asp

This is probably part of the composite hull material, which does start 
to appear at TL8-9...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:35:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:35:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a
 starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV14LEGhUOjO0L6WkQ00004c57@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020411151634.0209ac08@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020415142902.020c6250@mail.qrc.com>

At 09:40 AM 4/13/2002, Texas Redshift wrote:
>After scrying using the Orb of Google, it appears that we may both mean the
>Law of Finds rather than salvage.

Probably; I'm not a lawyer (and only occasionally play one on the Internet).

>In many cases, this compensation is such that simply giving the salvor 
>salvaged property is the best way to straighten things out.

And as a gaming rule of thumb, it'll certainly do.

>Note also that special cases seem to apply to historical shipwrecks and
>military vessels.

Yes; IMTU I'd make the call that military shipwrecks remain Imperial 
property (and thus might be salvaged by the Imperium or it's agents and 
contractors, but not by private groups), and historical wrecks (including 
war graves, memorials, etc.) can be so designated by a proclamation from 
the appropriate nobility.

Thanks for the links!

   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 12:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
References: <20413.120658.7M5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB24B3.8020600@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Well, back in the late 60s/early 70s, I used to grab the Air Force
> equivalent ("in flight meal packs") at the commissary to take on Boy
> Scout camping trips. Basicly, we used them for dinner on Friday night
> when we were tired after setting up camp, and didn't feel much like
> putting a lot of effort into cooking. 

My roommate used to get those by the case at the PX, most of them 
weren't bad by starving college student, top ramen and tuna surprise 
standards.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Backwater areas in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <3C90ACCA.20039.9DF165@localhost>
Message-ID: <20415.121345.7z0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 13 Mar 2002 at 14:47, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > Another option might be hypervelocity rockets with a penetrator.
>> > Something the size of a LAW or AT-4 that accelerates up to 2000+
>> > meters per second in the tube and with a DU penetrator. 
>> 
>> Eek! Do you have any idea what sort of rocket motor you are talking
>> about here? 
>> 
>> Work out the acceleration required, just for starters. 
>> 
>> The backblast will be nasty, and a cracked fuel grain will take out the
>> person firing the rocket.
>
> The NZ Air Force used to (when we still had a strike wing) use Canadian 
> 120mm rockets that had a tungsten carbide penetrator like a tank gun 
> round as their warhead. IIRC they have a similar velocity to that of a 
> tank gun and, as the body stayed attached, more mass. We used them for 
> anti-shipping and they'd no nasty things to a frigate from barely on 
> the horizon. I think the SOP was to fly in at 10,000 feet until the 
> ship appeared over the horizon, fire, then dive back under the horizon 
> before the SAMs got to you.
>
> Therefore the basic idea is feasible at TL7-8, it's just a matter of 
> getting the thing small enough for a man to carry. As for fuel grain 
> cracks - thet's an issue with any rocket or missile, so why make an 
> issue of it for this one? The (likely) higher internal pressure?

A blast that will "inconvenience" a jet fighter will make hamburger out
of an infantryman. And ordnance attached to aircraft gets handled a
*lot* more gently than anything a soldier is packing around in combat.

Also, as noted elsewhere, I can just about guarantee that the
antishipping missile *didn't* reach full velocity in less than 100
meters, much less less than *2* meters.

The big objection is to the missile reaching full velocity by the time
it exits the launch tube. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:01:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:01:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20415.122550.9R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Maybe I'm just too scientifically dumb to follow the
> conversation and am therefore saying the same thing
> that has already been said, but...
>
> Doesn't a starship (or Jump enabled planet for that
> matter) exert gravity inward to it's center?  Isn't
> that a different force than the planet or ship or GG
> or Star that is closer than 100D?

Nope. Or at least not in a simple manner.

The gravitational forces inside a hollow sphere *cancel*. For other
shapes, you need a lot of calculus to figure what sort of forces you get.

Inside a solid sphere, of uniform density, you get the interesting
result that the force of gravity is a *maximum* at the surface and
drops *linearly* to zero at the center.

For one of varying density, where the density varies in spherical
"layers", it's a bit weirder, but you can figure it out by just taking
the mass of the solid sphere that's closer to the center than you are.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:01:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:01:56 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020415175248.A24097@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20415.124737.8e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Actually, if you are out at the distance of saturn or farther, that
>> "ice" is apt to be a mix of ammonia, methane and water.
>
> Yes, quite true.  Water is more prevalent further in, which I would
> guess is where ships are more likely to want to go.  Most spacecraft
> in my Traveller universe don't scoop gas giants for hydrogen unless
> really desperate; they either slurp it up from oceans or grab it from
> icy moons or other bodies.  Sometimes that means throwing away excess
> methane and ammonia because they don't have appropriate type of
> tankage to hold it.

If you aren't scooping from a gas giant, you don't *need* tankage.
Except for a rather small amount to hold stuff that you are feeding
thru the systems that "crack" the hydrogen out of them.

Both methane and ammonia will burn with oxygen. So you crack some water
(thermally or via electrolysis) and use the oxygen to burn the methane
and ammonia to N2, H20 & CO2. You condense the H20 and crack it to get
back the oxygen. The CO2 and N2 get either discrard or fed into the
life support system's atomosphere reprocessing section. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:02:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:02:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Here I go again. Please don't kill me  :-)
>
> Right now I'm adding population generation to my script.
>
> Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
> than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
> become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
> of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake  ;-)
>
> "That's no moon"
>
> I could see people turning a small moon into swiss cheese and living in
> it, but at that point it will cease to be a moon and begin to be a space
> station built using an asteroid hull.

Okay that six mile (I assume diameter, if it's radius, multiply all
areas below by 4) rockball has a surface area of just over 3 billion
square feet. Equivalent to a square 10.6 miles on a side. That's a
*lot* bigger than Manhattan.

Which gives each of those 10,000 people roughly 315,000 square feet. Or
an area about 560 feet square.  That's a couple of city blocks!

Say it's 50,000. That reduces things to 63,000 squae feet apiece. An
area only 250 feet square.

Allow burrowing only a few hundred feet into the surface, and the
amount of space gets positively *obscene*. And it's still a moon or
asteroid, not a station with an asteroid hull.

Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
buildings and the like.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
Message-ID: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>

--part1_a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
> than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
> become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
> of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake  ;-)

I would say that isn't really a problem, for reasons that others have gone
into in plenty of detail.

One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of rock in 
a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons of inhabited 
planets,
a few large bodies in any given planetoid belt, maybe.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
<BR>&gt; than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
<BR>&gt; become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
<BR>&gt; of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake &nbsp;;-)
<BR>
<BR>I would say that isn't really a problem, for reasons that others have gone
<BR>into in plenty of detail.
<BR>
<BR>One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of rock in 
<BR>a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons of inhabited planets,
<BR>a few large bodies in any given planetoid belt, maybe.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020415190106.CE88227B71@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB4144.FF9D2823@earthlink.net>

John T. Kwon
> 
> 
> In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?

Yes. It's called "TL17". TL14 for those playing GT.

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <200204151758.ECZ05255@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E09124.3A634%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?

Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right when the user no
longer understands what's going on behind the 'curtain'.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8e0f93f2f0d@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>todal forces are the same.

A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the 
size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity 
in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal 
gradient.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:46:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:46:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020416074539.A25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
> I always thought the 100D gravity (or whatever) limit as being more
> of a sheering force on the Jumping vessel.  The vessels internal
> gravity (or whatever) just isn't sheering on itself.

Well, gravitational fields in empty space exert a combination of
stretching and compressional tides, not shearing.  Once you look at
the field *inside* some point of a body, it is a sum of the
compressional/stretching due to external fields, with a pure
compressional tide due to local density.

The simplest case is the interior of a sphere of uniform density.  In
that case, *every* point within the sphere has an isotropic and
homogeneous compression tide.  The strength is independent of location
within the sphere, and also independent of the size of the sphere.
(The mechanical pressure does vary with position and size however)

Grossly non-uniform and asymmetric bodies like starships have tidal
gradients that are horribly 'lumpy' throughout and difficult to plug
into an equation :/  You can still do the maths, but you need a
computer to actually add up all the numbers.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>
References: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020416080223.B25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of
> rock in a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons
> of inhabited planets, a few large bodies in any given planetoid
> belt, maybe.

I might go that far in a setting where a spacefaring civilization had
been confined to a single star system for *ages*.  Like the Moties,
for example.  The Imperium has too much room to move, and too low a
population for a 10km cometary body in the inner Oort cloud to look in
the least attractive as a home if there are any alternatives.

But I'd get a computer to do the actual number-crunching, and get
statistical features rather than individual figures.  Just things like
the probability that a given body of certain diameter, location, and
composition is inhabited, and by how many if so.  e.g. "1.3 trillion
living in asteroids of 5 km diameter or less in the inner belt", that
sort of thing.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20415.124737.8e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415175248.A24097@freeman.little-possums.net> <20415.124737.8e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020416081241.C25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Both methane and ammonia will burn with oxygen. So you crack some water
> (thermally or via electrolysis) and use the oxygen to burn the methane
> and ammonia to N2, H20 & CO2. You condense the H20 and crack it to get
> back the oxygen. The CO2 and N2 get either discrard or fed into the
> life support system's atomosphere reprocessing section. 

I don't see what I get from this.

IMTU, there is only a small tank capable of holding LHyd with all the
associated cryogenic systems, ultralow temperature pumps and such
expensive stuff.  It primarily feeds the jump drive when entering
jump.  The rest of the fuel space is designed to hold water which I
can slowly refine using a fuel processor during jump.

So the limit on how much fuel I can hold is how much oxygen is
available to bind the hydrogen into water for my large (and cheap)
tanks.  Discarding CO2 from burning methane is hence worse than just
throwing away the methane.  I might extract some nitrogen from the
ammonia to replenish any atmosphere losses, but that's about it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020416082357.D25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

[Jens wrote:]
> > I could see people turning a small moon into swiss cheese and living in
> > it, but at that point it will cease to be a moon and begin to be a space
> > station built using an asteroid hull.

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
> things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
> buildings and the like.

You can say that again!  A moon of 50 mile diameter has a volume of
about 20 trillion dtons.  Suppose the moon was indeed turned in "swiss
cheese".  Even if only 1% of the space was living quarters, that's
still 200 billion dtons.  Just think how many staterooms you could fit
into that!  Heck, give every single person 2000 cubic metres in that
1% volume (a rather large house, and that's per person, not per
family) and you've still got room for over a billion people.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>; from JFZeigler@aol.com on Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 04:10:04PM -0400
References: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020415163142.B9543@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 04:10:04PM -0400, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> 
> One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of
> rock in a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons
> of inhabited planets, a few large bodies in any given planetoid
> belt, maybe.

I dunno.  If it _can_ be inhabited, it _may_ be inhabited, and good
random tables should reflect this.

I know that when I finally get the GT world generation done for
travlib that it's going to generate population for every world
(i.e. belt, terrestrial planet and moon).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I read [.doc files] with 'rm.'  All you lose is the Microsoft-specific
font selections, the macro viruses and the luser babblings.
                                      --Gary `Wolf' Barnes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <OF66D276C9.2DAD1A83-ON85256B9C.006477EE@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <007401c1e4cf$89095d20$5d9393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Im really looking forward to this. i got an order in at my FLGS already 8)
>
> Bill
>

Then you'll be pleased to learn that I'm working through the final-ish edit
on the "offending article" right now.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:52:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:52:05 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au> <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net> <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <008901c1e4cf$efbbccb0$5d9393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> I sincerely apologise to everyone involved in the T20 project.  My
> forgetting to include a 'smiley' totally changed the emphasis of the
> message and made it seem negative.  IT WAS NOT MEANT TO BE, as I am
> really looking forward to T20.  for those of you who are not aware of
> the Open Gaming licence, using the d20 system means that everything is
> (to a significant degree) interchangeable.  This means that (with only a
> little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
> them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
> terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.

Heh. I must have missed the original post - gone back and found it now - so
I've decided to be mildly (and retrospectively) annoyed - just to make it
worth your time in writing the apology. (grin).

We're in final preparation now. Layout is still to do, but more or less, we
have a product. I'm guessing weeks now.

Regards

MJD




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 17:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr 15 16:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: open source rpg development
Message-ID: <20020415233039.66503.qmail@web11304.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I do wish to point out who is affected by an effort
that results in taking market share from professional
game designers.  Regardless of their original intent. 
It will be the folks like Loren who live on a
shoestring instead of folks like Bill Gates who
already has more money than he has a purpose for.
END QUOTE

But then it could be argued that any one new who has
an original RPG shouldn't publish (openly or
commercially) because it would take market share from
the already established publihers. Now that idea is
ridiculous. However it wouldn't be moral to make a
open source version of Trav, because then you would be
stealing the ideas of people who need them to make a
living. I however feel that if you want to make a new
original RPG you should go ahead. It's a capatilist
society and if you can't compete against FAR competion
than no one is going to subsidise you (unless you have
friend's in government). I do think people like Loren
do deserve our support though (even though I wouldn't
touch GURPS with a ten foot pole)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 17:41:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 16:41:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Changes to First In rules
In-Reply-To: <20020316213935.3edca0b2.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <005001c1e4d7$00aec5c0$0f01a8c0@terry>

> When working on my program for First In star system generation (see my
> other recent post), I decided to make a few minor changes to the way
the
> rules work. Do the changes below sound reasonable?

I was just looking this over to add to mine and realized there is a
problem with your ratios. A standard sector has stellar systems much
more often than your ratios. It looks like your average assumes 200
systems per sector and that is very low for standard. A sector has 32x40
or 1280 hexes and standard is a 1/2 chance per hex for an average of
640. 
 
> 1) A primary star has a 1/500 chance of being a supergiant. This gives
one
> supergiant per 2.5 sectors (of standard stellar density).

Average of 1.28 per sector, limit of one please!
 
> 2) A primary star has a 1/1500 chance of being a type O star,
resulting in
> one type O star per 7.5 sectors.

Average of one per 2.3 sectors.

> 3) A primary star has a 1/500 chance of being a type B star, resulting
in
> one type B star per 2.5 sectors.

Average of 1.28 per sector. 
 
Regards,

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204160006.EDL06288@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right 
>when the user no longer understands what's going on behind 
>the 'curtain'.
>
And how many users know what's going on behind the scenes in 
their browser?  Why is AOL so popular?  Because most people 
don't know and don't care what goes on behind the curtain.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I remember thinking one time when I was staring down
the barrel of a .45, "thank God he does not have a
knife."  Getting penetrated by a knife is 
somehow terrifying, and it also gives the wielder
credible non-lethal options.  I think there have been
several instances in recent times when 
bayonet charges have routed the enemy, even if no one
actually got stabbed. A bayonet would be vital for
handling prisoners, and possibly even reluctant 
heroes.  ;)
END QUOTE

Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
to see is a cloud of dust ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020415.203959.-193407.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

What, because you have dust in your veins instead of blood?  ;-)



                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB75B0.45698CC5@premier.net>


James Ramsay wrote:
> 
> QUOTE
> I remember thinking one time when I was staring down
> the barrel of a .45, "thank God he does not have a
> knife."  Getting penetrated by a knife is
> somehow terrifying, and it also gives the wielder
> credible non-lethal options.  I think there have been
> several instances in recent times when
> bayonet charges have routed the enemy, even if no one
> actually got stabbed. A bayonet would be vital for
> handling prisoners, and possibly even reluctant
> heroes.  ;)
> END QUOTE
> 
> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

And that, sir, is why armies still issue bayonets.... ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020415230829.93725.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
The person who deserves the biggest rocket up the arse
in "Aliens" (military-wise) is the pilot of the
dropship. Though she was originally told that the LZ
had been secured, she'd never make a Traveller-PC
group.
END QUOTE

Thats a bit unfair, it was spunkmeyer who went to take
a piss out side. And I think even recon would get
rattled after the nest encounter. Another thing to
consider is that according to the background material
most of the marines where conscripts. Drake and
Vasquez where convicted criminals and thier sentance
was life in the marines! Now what does that tell you
about the casualty rate of the USCM? No wonder they
only had one squad on a big arse ship like the sulaco!

On a tangent I watched Aliens and Star Wars the other
day and noticed that both use the same type of headset
comunicators. Oh and a funny thing here in Australia,
three of our sailors where arrested for damaging earth
moving equipment! And these people are protecting our
waters?

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 19:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 18:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020416031009.2bda525e.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
> things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
> buildings and the like.

Thank you for hitting me with the "stupid" stick for the second time in
the last days, Leonard  :-)

I'll crawl back into my dark corner now.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 20:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 19:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CT/Book 5 question
Message-ID: <200204160206.EDP04153@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

OK.  Actually a Book 5 question.  Ship has partial 
streamlining. Under the rules, it can do gas giant 
refueling.  If it can move through an upper atmosphere like 
that (presumably at some velocity - after all, we don't want 
to spiral in), can you land such a ship on a world with a 
standard atmosphere?

How does an air/raft do it?  1-G acceleration.  You're riding 
in a vehicle about the size of a HMMWV with the top down.

Feel that wind in your hair...

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 21:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 15 20:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>; from quakers_united@yahoo.com.au on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:36:12AM +1000
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:36:12AM +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
> 
> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

Unless he's the faster...

That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
convincing opposing argument:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Yes, we will want simultaneous translators...No, not when the PM meets
the leaders of the English-speaking nations...Yes, the English-speaking
nations can be said to include the United States.
          --Bernard Wooley, `Yes, Prime Minister'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 22:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon Apr 15 21:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CT/Book 5 question
References: <200204160206.EDP04153@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB9B7E.656C5156@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> OK.  Actually a Book 5 question.  Ship has partial
> streamlining. Under the rules, it can do gas giant
> refueling.  If it can move through an upper atmosphere like
> that (presumably at some velocity - after all, we don't want
> to spiral in), can you land such a ship on a world with a
> standard atmosphere?
>
> How does an air/raft do it?  1-G acceleration.  You're riding
> in a vehicle about the size of a HMMWV with the top down.
>
> Feel that wind in your hair...
>
> ________________
> "Imposed armistices . . . artificially
> freeze conflict and perpetuate a state
> of war indefinitely by shielding the
> weaker side from the consequences of
> refusing to make concessions for peace."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Streamlined ships are trans atmospheric. Air rafts take a number of
hours equal to the UPP size of the planet to orbit/deorbit.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:36:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:36:45 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020416064248.CB2DF279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/15/02 at 03:47 PM,  Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> said:

>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>> Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
>> OTU games.

>You don't think it makes sense that people from highly
>technologically advanced societies are richer than modern-day
>Earthlings?  Especially starship crew, who have to live in cramped
>conditions in a hostile environment for weeks at a time?

No, I don't.  

>Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot
>more than bus drivers.  And people in the US generally get paid a lot
>more than people in most other countries for comparable occupations. 
>So to my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from
>high-tech societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.

The crews of free traders *are* the truck drivers and mechanics of the
TU, and that's how they should be paid. That's my opinion, and how it
works IMTU, YTUMV.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:37:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:37:16 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <001e01c1e492$a431a680$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/15/02 at 11:31 AM,  Christopher Pratt <cdpratt@gatecom.com>
said:

>Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for those
>kinds of speciallized skills... I mean how much does a Airliner pilot
>make now days...

Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:39:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:39:10 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <OF4155728C.34ECCD82-ONCA256B9D.00183047@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Eris opined:
>>> On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:
>>> 
>>>> Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll
>>>> never get my Tigress at this rate.
>>> 
>>> Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
>>> level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
>>> low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
>>> level) per month!  <g>
>
>>Which makes a steward a well paid individual indeed.  That's about
>>$140,160/year in adjusted dollars.  The Pilot is raking in about 210
>>grand a year in 2002 US dollars.
>
>Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
>OTU games.

I don't see much of a problem with it. It is in line with - but not 
excessively over-the-top - the idea that the more high-tech a society, the 
more resources each individual in society has to "spend". All of us on the 
TML, for instance, would be considered tremendously wealthy by folks who 
lived a hundred years ago, let alone when compared to peasants living back 
in the days of William the Conqueror.

Star Trek, for example, portrays this is a nicely understated way by 
removing the tokens of money, but then allowing crewmembers to book time 
on the holodeck, or use the replicator. Remember when Harry 
I've-gone-blank-on-his-surname (Voyager's navigator) decided to forgo his 
replicated meal allowance (and eat Neelix's food! Paris: "Hair? I assume 
that's just an expression?" Neelix: "No!") in order to replicate a violin? 
That's the sort of magical transformation that all those alchemists dreamt 
about! (Actually, they would have been happy with just a lump of gold, but 
you get my drift... ;-).

Originally (in 1977), Marc set 1 credit equal to US$1 - at least, on the 
interstellar beer ratio. I believe that may have been modified in the 
early '80's to Cr 1 = US$2. Then you have the effects of those 
local-vs-Imperial credit exchange rate tables (one appears in an early 
JTAS, for instance) which up's the ante again. In short, a pilot paid 
wages in Imperial credits, who then lands on a backwater world, is in a 
similar situation to a modern-day pilot (paid in, say UK pounds or US $$ - 
not AU$, sorry Phill! ;-) who lands in Rwanda. Or Zimbabwe. Or even India. 
He can lord in about and spend all that cash, or can save it up for his 
time back home on that high-tech homeworld where _one_ air/raft costs 
Cr400,000.

Don't sweat it - it's not _that_ hard to get rid of PC's money. I'm sure 
Eris only gave his PBeM players a ship in order to give them a big black 
money-pit... Just make them keep track of everything. I've had one player 
in my game saying the the others, "I know we're under attack, but these 
missiles are Cr10,000 _each_! Do you know how much this missile salvo is 
going to cost us??" To which I, as DM, coached, "Andrew, you're playing a 
_male_ Aslan. WHO CARES how much those missiles cost, just FIRE!!" As a 
large (toothy ;-) grin appeared from behind his beard, the others realised 
the monetary implications of a trigger-happy gunner. This led nicely to 
the party arguing about how many missiles they were going to "waste" on 
defence, while all the while the nasty pirate was allowed to continue 
lasering away their several-orders-of-magnitude-more-expensive superdense 
hull plating!!  ;-)

Ah, me! Players are good at shooting themselves in the foot. You just have 
to get creative when helping them to aim. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:40:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:40:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
Message-ID: <OFF290291A.CB37BC25-ONCA256B9D.0017EFD0@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>>Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
>>"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
>>
>> The origin is bugging me....
>
>It definitely goes back to at least the mid to late 80s. I thought that I
>might have first seen it in "Striker", which would be around 1981 or so, 
but
>I could be mistaken.

You are not mistaken. It's mentioned in Striker Book 2, part of the 
"Integrating with Traveller" section.

My bet is that it goes back to "Starship Troopers".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:43:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:43:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com> <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>

On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:02:50 +1000, Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

>I'll assume that the 100D limit corresponds to a tidal tension
>of 4e-13 s^-2, and hence that the 10D gradient is 4e-10 s^-2.
>
>Let us suppose that each ship is spherical with an average density of
>500 kg/m^3 (i.e. about 7 tonnes/dton).

I.e., about half that of an equal volume of water.  This is probably a
bit low on the density for most Traveller ships, but it is certainly
not too far off the mark for smaller ships which are capable of ocean
refueling.

>Displacement  Diameter  Mass    10D limit  100D limit
>(dtons)       (m)       (Mg)    (m)        (m)
>100           13.8      685     61.1       611
>1000          29.7      6850    131.7      1317
>10000         64.0      68500   283.8      2838
>100000        138       685000  611.4      6114
>
>As you can see, the hull surface is far inside the 10D limit.
>
>The formulae are pretty simple: mass =3D density * volume,
>volume =3D pi D^3 / 6  for a sphere,
>T =3D 2 G M / R^3.

Thanks for providing the formulas in addition to doing the table.
This certainly is useful for an earlier discussion regarding Jump
Masking (consult the archives if you are curious).

>JR Holmes wrote:
>> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force
>> upon itself
>
>You are.  This is very important in determining Roche's limit, for
>example.

I remain unconvinced in this regard.  "Roche's Limit is the distance
from a planet inside which a satellite will be torn apart by tidal
forces." (from http://www.cvc.org/astronomy/roche_limit.htm) or
"Roche's Limit, which is the distance from a planet at which the
planet's tidal force on a satellite (tending to stretch apart) is
equal to the satellite's self-gravity (tending to hold it together)."
(from http://utrao.as.utexas.edu/ast301/log/log22.html)

As per the above, Roche's Limit is where these tidal forces (a
tensional force) equal the compressional forces of an object's own
gravity.  But this is in regard to the tidal forces exerted _with
regard to another body_.  Without the other body, no tidal force.

It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In another
of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional and
compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive me if
I am interpreting you incorrectly).  I believe you are in error in
this regard.  As per the above, the compressional forces are due to
the object's self-gravity and only the tensional forces are due to the
influence of another body and therefore are tidal forces.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:43:58 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8E09124.3A634%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEKDHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Tod Glenn wrote :
> on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> > In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> > starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> > stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
>
> Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.
> Right when the user no longer understands what's going
> on behind the 'curtain'.

That happens at TL 6 for most people.

How many people actually understand how even an internal
combustion engine works, let alone a computer ?

IME, the vast majority of people (i.e people who don't
subscribe to the TML) effectively consider anything beyond
simple mechanical machines "magic".

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:44:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:44:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
(of radiation effects on fertility)
> Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
> men, if you prefer)?

Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
the testis to ionising radiation.

Larsen Whipsnade wrote :-
> GURPS, in Compendium II, handles this in the following manner.
> If a female has a lifetime dose of 250 rads, her offspring, and
> any problems they may have, are entirely at the GM's discretion.
There probably won't be any offspring (permanent sterility in 75%).

> Realistic?  Yes.
Nah, in GURPS it's usually an excuse for the GM to introduce Weird
Mutant Powers (TM) <g>


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:45:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:45:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.225006.1X5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi,

> Thing is, the density of "rocky" planets (as opposed to gas giants and
> the iceballs you find in the outer system) is pretty uniform.

For Mercury (5.43), Venus (5.24) and Earth (5.52), yes.
For Mars (3.93), any Jovian moon (some of which are considered "rocky", e.g.
Io, at 3.53), and a few others, no.
Personally, I'd reckon that density can vary considerably even for rocky
worlds, say from 3.0 to nearly 7.8 (almost totally iron) or 8.5+ (almost
totally nickel).

> So if there's any sort of safety factor built in to the "100 diameter"
> rule, it'll work fine except in *really* oddball situations (say trying
> to jump close to a *big* nickel-iron asteroid).

So ... if I had a planet with an extremely large Ni-Fe core, and a higher
mean density as a result, say towards 6.5 or 7.0, then the 100D rule would
not be good enough. Another hazard for exploring uncharted systems, I guess.

> The details *do* matter, because the forces at the *hull* of even a
> small ship will *exceed* those from a planet at 100 diameters. That's a
> *unavoidable*.

Leonard, please don't emphasise words with asterisks. It just makes things
harder to read and comes over patronising, even if that's not intended.

*Try* *reading* *this* *sentence* *to* *see* *what* *I* *mean*.

Also, if we have to handwave away the tidal gradient due to the ship's hull,
then I'd argue that the tidal gradient is not the principal factor in a
misjump, no matter how well the figures fit.

> So a ship *has* to be able to compensate for the forces generated by
> its own mass.

Having said that, if that's the case, then maybe that's where all the Jump
Fuel goes - maybe.

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:49:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:49:13 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>

I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
_recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.

Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
like you are too valuable to lose.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:50:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:50:20 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OF79538278.A1B0E48C-ON85256B9C.005AE8D9@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBC25E4.2080505@magpiesnest.co.uk>

William Lane wrote:

> has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a line at
> wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.
> 
Certainly have Bill (though now I tend to use JAXP, which is based around Xerces but has differences). Send me your questions and I will do my best to answer them for you.



-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:56:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:56:07 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW! I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <F165K8onzvMMl6Dcu4n00003775@hotmail.com>

Congratulations, Jeff!  Thanks for *your* work!


>From: Jeff Zeitlin <editor@freelancetraveller.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
>Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 07:23:41 -0400
>
>I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
>protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
>Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
>flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
>never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
>_recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
>
>Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
>allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
>more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
>you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
>like you are too valuable to lose.
>
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
>Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
>http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
>http://www.freelancetraveller.com
>http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
>editor@freelancetraveller.com
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
Message-ID: <OF8A9C8510.72B94182-ON85256B9D.004D468D@pheaa.org>








>> has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a line at
>> wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.

>Certainly have Bill (though now I tend to use JAXP, which is based around
Xerces but has differences). Send me your >questions and I will do my best
to answer them for you.


Here is what im doing im developing a java application that reads an xml
file and parses it into 3 seperate COBOL data files. the cobol group
eventually runs their apps and uses the data from these flat files. once
they are through they send them back to me. i then want to parse these 3
files into a single new xml file.

i have gotten to where i am creating the new document. i can append
children on it ect.. ect..

however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to actually be
written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im new to XML and Xerces
is not the best documented thing i have ever worked with. i was looking at
maybe using the serializer to send a outPutStream through it. but it would
seem to me that xerces should have a way of building this document out on
the drive.

but maybe im just wishful thinking 8P

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:17:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RULES - Skill Lvl. 0
Message-ID: <12414.1018957560@www34.gmx.net>

Hello Together,

I'm kind of new to actually play Megatraveller. Now I've encountered a
problem regarding 'Skill-Level-0-serves-as-Level-minus-1-Skills'. My Problem is :
If you have a Skill at Level 0 (e.g. Grav Vehicle-0), and this Skill 'serves
as' another Skill at Level minus 1 (Grav Vehicle serves as Grav Belt -1), at
which Level do I execute the 'served' Skill (Grav Belt)?
at : Level -1 (-> giving a negative DM of 1)?
at : Level 0 (-> minimum Skill-Level is allways 0)?
or not at all (-> there are no 'served' Skills for Level-0-Skills)?

Is there an official rule (which I did not find - sorry), or any other
sollutions?

Thank you, Sebastian

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>

Stephen Tempest posts:
>Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =20

Shouldnt the hull code be Z? I though Y was for 1,000,000 to 
1,999,999. Z was for anything above that. 

>MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
Architects fees? Anyone?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:51:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:51:14 2002
Subject: [TML] List outtage
Message-ID: <B8E1855D.3A929%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all,

Owing to an uncheduled outage on the part of my ISP, the mailing list hosted
at TravellerCentral.com were unavailable from about 11pm last night (PST)
until early this morning.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Tod
-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Marsh)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
Message-ID: <F58wAeRaNgEpTX5V3Gy00000309@hotmail.com>

I do not have my LBB in front of me; I thought the term was first used in 
Book 4 either with the illustration of the Forward Observer or in the Iron 
Mongery section. This would have well preceded Striker. Can anyone confirm 
this? (I agree it was prob. lifted from some fiction)


>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
>Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 16:17:04 +1000
>
>Dear Folks -
>
> >>Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> >>"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
> >>
> >> The origin is bugging me....
> >
> >It definitely goes back to at least the mid to late 80s. I thought that I
> >might have first seen it in "Striker", which would be around 1981 or so,
>but
> >I could be mistaken.
>
>You are not mistaken. It's mentioned in Striker Book 2, part of the
>"Integrating with Traveller" section.
>
>My bet is that it goes back to "Starship Troopers".
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014401c1e55a$62849d00$1f9e15ac@warrior>

hmm... good point... both the part about the PC scrapping for cash, and the
IYTU justification for it...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 12:58 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?


> On 04/15/02 at 11:31 AM,  Christopher Pratt <cdpratt@gatecom.com>
> said:
>
> >Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for those
> >kinds of speciallized skills... I mean how much does a Airliner pilot
> >make now days...
>
> Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
> skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
> They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
> thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
> in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
> living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.
>
> Eris
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
In-Reply-To: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075705.009f3cf0@mindspring.com>

At 07:23 AM 4/16/02 -0400, you wrote:

>I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
>protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
>Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
>flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
>never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
>_recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
>
>Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
>allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
>more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
>you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
>like you are too valuable to lose.

Hey, you earned it!

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
end of the world is fast approaching."
- Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:26:28 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8E09124.3A634%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204151758.ECZ05255@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>

At 02:16 PM 4/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>
> > In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> > starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> > stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
>
>Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right when the user no
>longer understands what's going on behind the 'curtain'.

Hell, for me that's today!  I can use my comp[uter, but for all I know, 
this beige box is actually home to a tribe of magic pixes.

There was a great SF story written years ago, might even have been golden 
age, about a bunch of scientists who build a time machine. They can grab 
one person from the future.  They get an ad executive.  Sure there are 
cancer curesm flying cars, etc, but he just knows how to use them, not how 
they work.

I still find it amazing and rather magical that this little bit of dreck 
will be read by people on the other side of the planet (hi Jens and Hans!) 
I sort of understand that it will be shuffled around by a lot of computers 
that do that sort of thing, but beyond that?  Nothing.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
In-Reply-To: <OF8A9C8510.72B94182-ON85256B9D.004D468D@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCMECKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

William

I did mail you off list ... but since you replied to the list, well, hey ...
;-)

> however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to actually be
> written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im new to XML
> and Xerces
> is not the best documented thing i have ever worked with. i was looking at
> maybe using the serializer to send a outPutStream through it. but it would
> seem to me that xerces should have a way of building this document out on
> the drive.

Try the following sort of thing -

try {
		myFileWriter = new FileWriter( "filename.xml");
		myFileWriter.flush();

		myDocumentImpl = new DocumentImpl();

		// ...



// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
		// Code to generate root element here, omitted for clarity


// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-


		// ...

		OutputFormat myOutputFormat = new OutputFormat( myDocumentImpl );
		myOutputFormat.setIndent( 4 );
		myOutputFormat.setIndenting( true );

		myOutputFormat.setDoctype( "filename.dtd" , "filename.dtd" );

		myXMLSerializer = new XMLSerializer( myOutputFormat );
		myXMLSerializer.setOutputCharStream( myFileWriter );


		// ...



// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
		// Generate the rest of the document, again omitted for clarity, then
write it


// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

		// ...

		myXMLSerializer.serialize( myDocumentImpl );
		myOutputFormat.flush();
	}
catch ( IOException ioe )
	{
	}

Hope this helps.

Andy B

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204161835500.25492-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
> Hell, for me that's today!  I can use my comp[uter, but for all I know, 
> this beige box is actually home to a tribe of magic pixes.
[snip]
> I still find it amazing and rather magical that this little bit of dreck 
> will be read by people on the other side of the planet (hi Jens and Hans!) 
> I sort of understand that it will be shuffled around by a lot of computers 
> that do that sort of thing, but beyond that?  Nothing.

The more I get to know about how things work, the more I think that they
are indeed powered by magic. And mathematics, which is almost the same
stuff. B-)

Trust me, you are better off not knowing how computer networks are built.
You might wonder how they do work at all... B-)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
Message-ID: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>







>I did mail you off list ... but since you replied to the list, well, hey
...
>;-)

Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
info.

Bill












From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RULES - Skill Lvl. 0
In-Reply-To: <12414.1018957560@www34.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAECLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hello

Originally, Skill Level - 0 meant no skill at all, and Skill Level - 1/2
meant some familiarity at a basic level, enough to avoid a penalty for
absolutely no ability or knowledge but not enough to actually grant a +DM.

Then it changed, so that the absence of the skill on a character sheet meant
no skill at all, and 0 meant some familiarity.

I rule that if you have Skill Level - 0 in something, then the next level
down would be no knowledge at all or the "absence" condition above.

Basically, Skill Level - 0 invokes no bonus and incurs no penalty. It does
not mean that you have Skill Level - 0 in a related skill, you're a
greenhorn with some learnin' is all.

Andy B.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:45:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:45:29 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCECLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> There was a great SF story written years ago, might even have been golden
> age, about a bunch of scientists who build a time machine. They can grab
> one person from the future.  They get an ad executive.  Sure there are
> cancer curesm flying cars, etc, but he just knows how to use
> them, not how they work.

Now that is what I call a grade A bad day ... pulling an ad exec from the
future - yeuch !

Andy B


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204161835500.25492-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <20020416155310.3125.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

> You might wonder how they do work at all... B-)

The place I used to work had an exceptionally
dimwitted programmer.  I mean, sitting listening to
his ideas for solving problems (the few he had) was an
exercise in humor at the least.  In any case, he would
work well into the night when code was due and his
stuff would eventually come close to working.  When we
found a bug, we looked for the code and it appeared
that the code was not doing what the system was doing.
 To this day, we swear he must've been sacrificing
chickens or virgins or virgin chickens or something to
get the stuff to work.

ObTrav:  There is a (Star Trek created?) stereotype of
the engineer who can fix anything but no one can tell
how he does it.  What other stereotypes are common in
your games?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:11:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:11:15 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
In-Reply-To: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <B8E19A80.35FF%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

on 4/16/02 4:23 AM, Jeff Zeitlin at editor@freelancetraveller.com wrote:

> I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
> protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
> Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
> flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
> never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
> _recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
> 
> Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
> allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
> more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
> you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
> like you are too valuable to lose.
> 

You deserve a lot more credit than you're giving yourself, Jeff.

I've submitted a couple of things, and Jeff not only posts them, he does an
wonderful job at layout, making them much easier to read than the raw text I
gave him (and probably making them a better read than they actually are).
That is a LOT of work, and it shows.  The whole site is great.

I'm giving you a standing ovation (well, not now, I'm typing - OK, there it
was, did you feel it?).

Thanks Jeff, you are the Fourth Force in Traveller support.

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:15:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:15:47 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <OF7A3367D5.83EB7401-ON85256B9D.0057F13F@pheaa.org>




<snip>
The place I used to work had an exceptionally
dimwitted programmer.  I mean, sitting listening to
his ideas for solving problems (the few he had) was an
exercise in humor at the least.
</snip>

Hmm you know i feel just like that right now. the Dimwitted Programmer 8(


>we swear he must've been sacrificing
>chickens or virgins or virgin chickens or something to
>get the stuff to work.

So if it works where can i get any of the above? or would a Groat do as
well?


OBTRAV:

The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
other.

Captain asks "What are you doing?"

New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"

Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P







From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:33:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:33:52 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <F20f7SMIaeYt2KoTstO00000c20@hotmail.com>

>From: "William Lane" <wlane@aessuccess.org>
>
>
>OBTRAV:
>
>The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
>Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
>engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
>Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
>other.
>
>Captain asks "What are you doing?"
>
>New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
>works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
>
>Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P

Jason Wright, the Merchant Ex-scout I play in Eris' Reaver's Deep game just 
raced into the engineering spaces when the gunner asked why the new engineer 
was taking apart the jump drive (since we were planning on lifting next day 
or so).

He raced in to find the Vargr hanging upside down with panels open and 
probes inserted, and the practical joking vargr with a flash bang for just 
such an occurance.

I'm wondering about her right now.  Current odds are that she'll make it 
through the first jump, but we'll space her during the second...

;-)

Thanks, Eris, for the Black-hole Money Pit which has seperated us from much 
money...

Greg

aka Rewock Mopit

Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:40:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:40:15 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204161638.EET02699@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Andrew MacLintock" says
>
>Jason Wright, the Merchant Ex-scout I play in Eris' Reaver's 
>Deep game just raced into the engineering spaces when the 
>gunner asked why the new engineer was taking apart the jump 
>drive (since we were planning on lifting next day 
>or so).
>
>He raced in to find the Vargr hanging upside down with 
>panels open and probes inserted, and the practical joking 
>vargr with a flash bang for just such an occurance.
>
>I'm wondering about her right now.  Current odds are that 
>she'll make it 
>through the first jump, but we'll space her during the 
>second...
>

Don't laugh.  When I was in Pershing (nuclear missiles, yes), 
we used to supplicate unto Dis, the God of Chaos, and ask for 
the Gift of Pre-Emptive Causality to take our bad luck away 
and bestow it upon the other missile platoons.

It worked.  Boy did it ever.  It got so bad that we were 
ordered to stop worshipping Dis.

Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from 
the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up 
during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and 
said, "Behold, Our God!".
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <200204161638.EET02699@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416131656.00b84c10@urbin.net>

At 12:38 PM 4/16/02 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
[snip]
>Don't laugh.  When I was in Pershing (nuclear missiles, yes),
>we used to supplicate unto Dis, the God of Chaos, and ask for
>the Gift of Pre-Emptive Causality to take our bad luck away
>and bestow it upon the other missile platoons.
>It worked.  Boy did it ever.  It got so bad that we were
>ordered to stop worshipping Dis.
>Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from
>the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
>again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up
>during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and
>said, "Behold, Our God!".

My keyboard is grateful that I wasn't drinking at the time.
I'm still chuckling though, that counts as a kill.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:27:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:27:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com> <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>

As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
something:

At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEJMDKAA.tml@downport.com>

I think that would be a fine use for a lot of those extra, windbag nobles we
have lying around the Imperium. Make them barristers, judges, justices,
notaries public or attorneys general! Do something to stop them cluttering
up the casinos and VIP lounges.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Texas Redshift

As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
something:

At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:43:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:43:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <200204161741.EEV03115@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Texas Redshift" says
>How litigous is the Imperium?
I'm not even sure there's an Imperial Supreme Court.  The 
individual governments seem to have their own laws and 
courts.  There is also the idea expressed in canon that this 
is a different age, where lawsuits across the Imperium do not 
happen.

There might be some legal agreements between various 
systems.  

But IMHO, the litigation level depends on the law level and 
the government type.

One of the first Traveller adventures I was in (1979), we 
were in a ground car accident - minor fender bender.  I 
hadn't gotten the idea down that there was Law Level Zero.

I got out of the car with the others, and asked the other 
driver if he had insurance.  He said, "No."  So I said to my 
friends, "I think we should wait for the police."  They 
laughed and said, "Hey stupid, there are no police."

So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the 
occupants of the other car without warning.  Then we went 
through their pockets for loose change.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018978883.2225.ajackson@ping>

Texas Redshift writes:
> As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
> something:
> 
> At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
> Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
> judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Depends on the world.  There are canon references to 'government of men, not
laws', which implies on the interstellar level it's not litigous per se, and
annoying the local judge with frivolous suits is probably a poor idea.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] CSC software
Message-ID: <200204161814.EEV08005@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I keep seeing references to this.  Is it still available?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416121821.009f23a0@mail.attbi.com>

	Here is a question for you technical types.
	Would a sandcaster actually work as well in the real world as it is 
portrayed in canon?  Also, would a sandcaster affect a particle beam at all?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:33:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:33:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F1633Sv0YKpDS7hx27k00013014@hotmail.com>

Perhaps contracts would provide that disputes would be resolved in a certain 
forum.  For instance, all disputes must be resolved in the Third District 
Court of Regina/Regina or by binding arbitration of the merchant guild or by 
Quickcourts, LIC.

If the Imperium operates as a functioning far-flung market economy, which 
seems to be the case, it must have some efficient method of dispute 
resolution.

>Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
>Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

Was there is an old JTAS article on Imperial justice?

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:35:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:35:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416121821.009f23a0@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018981937.7543.ajackson@ping>

Dale Gyles writes:
>      Here is a question for you technical types.
>      Would a sandcaster actually work as well in the real world as it is 
> portrayed in canon?  Also, would a sandcaster affect a particle beam at
> all? 

Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would work
reasonably well against just about any weapon.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:40:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:40:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <200204161837.EEX02352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Dale Gyles says
>
>	Here is a question for you technical types.
>	Would a sandcaster actually work as well in the real 
>world as it is portrayed in canon?  Also, would a sandcaster 
>affect a particle beam at all?
>
The spot size for the projected SBL is around a foot in 
diameter. The US Air Force is assuming that missiles will be 
painted or coated to optimize reflectivity, and they also 
anticipate that the missiles will spin to reduce the 
effectiveness of the laser.  "Sand" or some sort of 
particulate matter that interferes with the operation of the 
beam, would have to be held in close proximity to the ship.  
The beam has such a small spot size, that to effectively 
maintain a density of sand which would reduce the 
effectiveness of the beam means that you cannot allow it to 
disperse.  There are also plasmas that can be formed that 
might increase the reflectivity of the ship itself at the 
expense of increasing the ship''s signature.

The main way that the SBL intends to defeat reflective 
coatings, spinning, heavier construction, ablative coatings, 
and other countermeasures is to scale up the power.  In the 
case of missiles, they give good arguments as to why the 
countermeasures are, within an ability to hold the beam on 
target for four seconds, ineffective.  That is, with current 
tech, the coatings and spinning are already factored into the 
laser's design.  

As for a particle beam, the amount of material is so 
miniscule, and so thinly spread (the beam is probably 
neutrons), that sand would be useless.  These beams are also 
regarded as being more effective at penetrating armor (from 
the point of view of the Air Force) than a laser.  Both 
radiation damage and deep heating are expected to occur with 
a particle beam weapon.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CSC software
References: <200204161814.EEV08005@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC70CD.1060806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I keep seeing references to this.  Is it still available?

At Bits:

http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/BITS_website/Productsfolder/prod_INFV.htm

Mac only, but a sweet piece of software, if I do say so myself.

For some examples of designs see:

http://oscar.pharmacy.arizona.edu/csc_page.html

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <200204161837.EEX02352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018982859.1183.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> As for a particle beam, the amount of material is so 
> miniscule, and so thinly spread (the beam is probably 
> neutrons), that sand would be useless.  These beams are also 
> regarded as being more effective at penetrating armor (from 
> the point of view of the Air Force) than a laser.  Both 
> radiation damage and deep heating are expected to occur with 
> a particle beam weapon.

Erm.  Probably not neutrons, you can't accelerate them or aim them, though a
space-based particle beam would accelerate ions and then remove the charge,
resulting in a neutral particle beam (penetration would not be better than a
charged particle beam).  Problem with particle beams is they're very difficult
to focus.  Advantage is if you crank the per-particle energies high enough, the
levels of shielding possible on a realistic missile are pretty much irrelevant,
and you can radiation-cook the entire missile.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J A (Jim) Cooper)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
References: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c1e577$fb937b20$9c8c4218@mshome.net>

I would also like to add my congratulations to those of DB and JW. I have
used the sight often and repeatedly.
Keep up the good work.

Jim Cooper

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Zeitlin" <editor@freelancetraveller.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 4:23 AM
Subject: [TML] WOW! I'm massively flattered!


> I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
> protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
> Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
> flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
> never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
> _recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
>
> Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
> allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
> more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
> you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on;
people
> like you are too valuable to lose.
>
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
> Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
> http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
> http://www.freelancetraveller.com
> http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
> editor@freelancetraveller.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <200204161741.EEV03115@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC7D4F.7020102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> I got out of the car with the others, and asked the other 
> driver if he had insurance.  He said, "No."  So I said to my 
> friends, "I think we should wait for the police."  They 
> laughed and said, "Hey stupid, there are no police."
> 
> So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the 
> occupants of the other car without warning.  Then we went 
> through their pockets for loose change.

How long did your party survive before the local residents rounded you 
up and hung you?

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:37:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:37:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>

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In a message dated 15/04/02 17:23:52 GMT Daylight Time, 
firelock_ny@hotmail.com writes:


> One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
> only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
> than they pay out in claims.
> 
> If you are a large enough organization, like a Mega-Corp,
> then your insurable losses from any particular event should
> be low enough (as a percentage of your total income) that it
> will be a better option for you to absorb the losses as they
> occur rather than continuously pay out insurance premiums.
> You'll "self-insure", by keeping cash on hand enough to cover emergencies 
> and accidents.  This is a good way for a large
> enough company to do business, since this "cash on hand",
> while it's on hand, can be earning for the company while
> insurance premiums are gone.

I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Any company, no matter how large, that 
believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
disaster. Trivial accidents, like the loss of a starship or the destruction 
of a drilling platform, are by their nature unpredictable and that is one of 
the best reasons for having insurance. True a single trivial accident can be 
absorbed easily but what about ten or twenty close together?

How can money put aside to insure against risk earn money for the company? It 
has to be safe and readily available at all times. You can't simply leave it 
sitting in an account - AFAIK banks simply don't pay interest on huge sums. 
That leaves you with safe but easily accessible investments which may not 
earn as much as the new unobtanium extraction rig you could have built with 
the money. And how do we decide how much to put aside? We need a specialist 
department to calculate risk and analyse patterns to decide what risks we 
should cover and how much we should put aside. Why not make it easy for 
ourselves and use a specialist outside contractor to do all the hard work?

> 
> If a catastrophe happens that destroys more value of your
> megacorp assets than you would have been paying out in
> insurance premiums, then chances are a war caused it - and
> insurance companies are noted for not paying out claims
> on damage caused by acts of war anyway.

Not neccessarily so - let's say that my mega-corp discovers this fantastic 
new fire-retarding, insulation material. It's easy and cheap to make and can 
be cut and moulded to all sorts of shapes. We call it Sotsebsa and it sells 
like hot cakes. Unfortunately it soon turns out that our wonder product has 
some undocumented problems - mostly it's safe but if you breathe in its dust 
you develop a really nasty, debilitating and fatal lung disease. True high TL 
medicine can cure it in a snap but we mostly sold this stuff on moderate tech 
worlds and millions of people are claiming we've poisoned them.

Now the cost of an individual claim is trivial but the cost of millions is 
not, particularly as we're not going to accept responsibility anywhere in 
case it sets a precedent. What's more our investors can see they're returns 
dwindling, after all we're spending more and more money on defence and 
compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral - 
we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet all of 
them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet these costs. 
Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have previously paid 
them, saving us in the long run, money.

And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want absorb 
the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to perform some 
unplanned demolition on the local school district? 

> 
> So, you'll have two tiers of starship out there.  The
> small or independent operator, who buys insurance (since a
> single event will likely put him out of business otherwise).
> The large corp, which may self-insure (that is, put money
> aside to cover replacement, rather than pay out premiums).

As I said above it's not just a question of assets. Does the mega-corp just 
cover the replacement of its starship or does it cover the potential loss of 
an up-port, down-port, all the other ships in dock, assorted cats, dogs and 
groats plus the mental well-being of little old ladies? If it's the former 
how much money does the mega-corp put aside to cover the legal costs of 
fighting the claims of the other groups? Again it makes far better business 
sense to transfer the risk to someone else. 

> 
> If most of a starport's traffic is megacorp vessels,
> then that starport won't have the insurance industry
> involved as much with starport safety requirements.
> The megacorp may have to post a bond of some sort, but
> this bond may be a trivial formality if the megacorp
> is in bed with the local starport authority...which they
> probably will be, the megacorp likely built the bed,
> washed the linens and hired the nubile young bedwarmers.
> 
> The small independent operator may have to post a bond
> of sorts to gain access to a starport as well.  This bond
> may well be posted by the independent operator's insurance
> carrier on behalf of all the carrier's clients, with the
> insurance carrier requiring operators to meet certain
> safety guidelines to get coverage and access to the bond.
> 
> Walt Smith
> 

I agree there will be different standards for private operators and 
mega-corps but that doesn't mean that mega-corps will self-insure. My 
argument is that the job of assessing risk and betting that accidents won't 
happen is a specialised business. Mega-corps, although they might have 
insurance arms, are not in the business of risking that they won't have the 
funds needed to cover a disaster. It is far easier, and in the long run more 
cost effective, to transfer risk to someone else.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 15/04/02 17:23:52 GMT Daylight Time, firelock_ny@hotmail.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">One thing to remember about insurance companies:&nbsp; they are<BR>
only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums<BR>
than they pay out in claims.<BR>
<BR>
If you are a large enough organization, like a Mega-Corp,<BR>
then your insurable losses from any particular event should<BR>
be low enough (as a percentage of your total income) that it<BR>
will be a better option for you to absorb the losses as they<BR>
occur rather than continuously pay out insurance premiums.<BR>
You'll "self-insure", by keeping cash on hand enough to cover emergencies <BR>
and accidents.&nbsp; This is a good way for a large<BR>
enough company to do business, since this "cash on hand",<BR>
while it's on hand, can be earning for the company while<BR>
insurance premiums are gone.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Any company, no matter how large, that believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to disaster. Trivial accidents, like the loss of a starship or the destruction of a drilling platform, are by their nature unpredictable and that is one of the best reasons for having insurance. True a single trivial accident can be absorbed easily but what about ten or twenty close together?<BR>
<BR>
How can money put aside to insure against risk earn money for the company? It has to be safe and readily available at all times. You can't simply leave it sitting in an account - AFAIK banks simply don't pay interest on huge sums. That leaves you with safe but easily accessible investments which may not earn as much as the new unobtanium extraction rig you could have built with the money. And how do we decide how much to put aside? We need a specialist department to calculate risk and analyse patterns to decide what risks we should cover and how much we should put aside. Why not make it easy for ourselves and use a specialist outside contractor to do all the hard work?</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
If a catastrophe happens that destroys more value of your<BR>
megacorp assets than you would have been paying out in<BR>
insurance premiums, then chances are a war caused it - and<BR>
insurance companies are noted for not paying out claims<BR>
on damage caused by acts of war anyway.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Not neccessarily so - let's say that my mega-corp discovers this fantastic new fire-retarding, insulation material. It's easy and cheap to make and can be cut and moulded to all sorts of shapes. We call it Sotsebsa and it sells like hot cakes. Unfortunately it soon turns out that our wonder product has some undocumented problems - mostly it's safe but if you breathe in its dust you develop a really nasty, debilitating and fatal lung disease. True high TL medicine can cure it in a snap but we mostly sold this stuff on moderate tech worlds and millions of people are claiming we've poisoned them.<BR>
<BR>
Now the cost of an individual claim is trivial but the cost of millions is not, particularly as we're not going to accept responsibility anywhere in case it sets a precedent. What's more our investors can see they're returns dwindling, after all we're spending more and more money on defence and compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral - we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet all of them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet these costs. Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have previously paid them, saving us in the long run, money.<BR>
<BR>
And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want absorb the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to perform some unplanned demolition on the local school district? </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
So, you'll have two tiers of starship out there.&nbsp; The<BR>
small or independent operator, who buys insurance (since a<BR>
single event will likely put him out of business otherwise).<BR>
The large corp, which may self-insure (that is, put money<BR>
aside to cover replacement, rather than pay out premiums).</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">As I said above it's not just a question of assets. Does the mega-corp just cover the replacement of its starship or does it cover the potential loss of an up-port, down-port, all the other ships in dock, assorted cats, dogs and groats plus the mental well-being of little old ladies? If it's the former how much money does the mega-corp put aside to cover the legal costs of fighting the claims of the other groups? Again it makes far better business sense to transfer the risk to someone else. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
If most of a starport's traffic is megacorp vessels,<BR>
then that starport won't have the insurance industry<BR>
involved as much with starport safety requirements.<BR>
The megacorp may have to post a bond of some sort, but<BR>
this bond may be a trivial formality if the megacorp<BR>
is in bed with the local starport authority...which they<BR>
probably will be, the megacorp likely built the bed,<BR>
washed the linens and hired the nubile young bedwarmers.<BR>
<BR>
The small independent operator may have to post a bond<BR>
of sorts to gain access to a starport as well.&nbsp; This bond<BR>
may well be posted by the independent operator's insurance<BR>
carrier on behalf of all the carrier's clients, with the<BR>
insurance carrier requiring operators to meet certain<BR>
safety guidelines to get coverage and access to the bond.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I agree there will be different standards for private operators and mega-corps but that doesn't mean that mega-corps will self-insure. My argument is that the job of assessing risk and betting that accidents won't happen is a specialised business. Mega-corps, although they might have insurance arms, are not in the business of risking that they won't have the funds needed to cover a disaster. It is far easier, and in the long run more cost effective, to transfer risk to someone else.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:46:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:46:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC7F09.6050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
> skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
> They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
> thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
> in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
> living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.


Eris' methods:

PC's inherit fine, functioning starship. PC's overjoyed, one 
particularly stupid one makes dumb DUMB comments about how easy it'll be 
to compete with ship owners who have a mortgage to pay. (Gee I wonder 
who?;-)

Bad guys steal ship.

Space Patroooool to the Rescuuue! <sound of inspirational music, 
punctuated by large explosions>

Space Patrol "Here. We caught the hijackers and recovered your ship. 
Thank us!"

PC's "But there are large holes in our ship where there used to be a 
jump drive, a drive controller, and a safe in the ship's locker"

SP: "Well they didn't surrender peacefully. Thank us and don't ask 
questions."

PC's notice that SP officer is wearing secret police uniform."Thank you"

PC's go to bank and get large loan to get ship flying again.

<scrape scrape> Hold up cardboard signs "Will carry stuff for credits" 
just like all the other free traders...
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:48:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:48:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson asks
>
>How long did your party survive before the local residents 
>rounded you  up and hung you?
>
That was the problem.  They had friends.  We got back to 
town, and they heard about it.  Later that day, when we were 
strolling into the front foyer of the guest house were were 
staying at, three men stepped into the room and opened up on 
us with submachineguns.  Of the six people in our party, one 
survived.  The three attackers died, but the locals were 
steamed enough to shoot the survivor after hearing his tale.

It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
received.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 03:36:24PM -0400
References: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020416135830.A13448@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 03:36:24PM -0400, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have to disagree, I'm afraid.  Any company, no matter how large, that 
> believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
> disaster.

But that's what an insurance company does...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Whenever you walk by a computer and see someone using pico, be kind.
Pause for a second and remind yourself that: `There, but for the grace
of God, go I.'                                           --Harley Hahn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:12:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:12:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018987914.6966.ajackson@ping>

CHam628781@aol.com writes:
> In a message dated 15/04/02 17:23:52 GMT Daylight Time, 
> firelock_ny@hotmail.com writes:
> 
> > One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
> > only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
> > than they pay out in claims.

This isn't actually true.  It's enough if 'payments plus interest on payments'
exceeds average payout.

> I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Any company, no matter how large, that 
> believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
> disaster. Trivial accidents, like the loss of a starship or the destruction
>  of a drilling platform, are by their nature unpredictable and that is one
> of  the best reasons for having insurance. True a single trivial accident
> can be  absorbed easily but what about ten or twenty close together?

Beyond a certain point, there's no choice.  Also, businesses do sometimes fail.
> 
> How can money put aside to insure against risk earn money for the company?

You 'put it aside' in assets and investments.

> It  has to be safe and readily available at all times.

Nah.  Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the
resources and reputation of the company.
> compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral
> -  we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet
> all of  them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet
> these costs.  Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have
> previously paid  them, saving us in the long run, money.

Well, given that it's your fault, the insurance is likely to be reluctant to
pay anyway.
> 
> And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want
> absorb  the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to
> perform some  unplanned demolition on the local school district? 

Many real-world large companies do exactly that.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <200204162032.EFB01691@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

We could go on and discuss how reserves are handled, explain 
the concept of the "book of business", and talk about 
reinsurance.

IMTU I feel that ship insurance is handled much more like 
Lloyd's (with individuals teaming up to take on risk) rather 
than like the auto insurance model.  Starships seem so much 
more risky than automobiles, and the payout on loss is so 
high, that I can truly see it taking a form resembling 
organized gambling (which is, after all, what Lloyd's is 
running - the world's highest paying casino - hope you don't 
lose).

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <200204161638.EET02699@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416132832.009ffd60@mindspring.com>

At 12:38 PM 4/16/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Don't laugh.  When I was in Pershing (nuclear missiles, yes),
>we used to supplicate unto Dis, the God of Chaos, and ask for
>the Gift of Pre-Emptive Causality to take our bad luck away
>and bestow it upon the other missile platoons.

"Humans, humans pay your dues
Just two paths that you get to chose
Feed us right, or fight and lose
Gremlins everywhere."  - Leslie Fish

I knew mechanics who would, with all seriousness, leave out plates of milk 
for the Gremlins.  These units had the highest readiness rates in the brigade.

>It worked.  Boy did it ever.  It got so bad that we were
>ordered to stop worshipping Dis.

Does the phrase "freedom of religion" mean anything?  I was openly a 
Discordian while in the service.

>Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from
>the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
>again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up
>during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and
>said, "Behold, Our God!".

Actually, I would have thought it would be the Sergeant Major who had a 
problem with that.. you know how they hate competiton.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <15c.be25cf3.29ede8fa@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 20:59:44 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:


> > I have to disagree, I'm afraid.  Any company, no matter how large, that 
> > believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
> > disaster.
> 
> But that's what an insurance company does...
> 

No, insurance companies tend to insure themselves against risk as well. I 
believe there's even a well established branch of business that deals with it 
- can't remember the name though :(

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 20:59:44 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; I have to disagree, I'm afraid.&nbsp; Any company, no matter how large, that <BR>
&gt; believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to <BR>
&gt; disaster.<BR>
<BR>
But that's what an insurance company does...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
No, insurance companies tend to insure themselves against risk as well. I believe there's even a well established branch of business that deals with it - can't remember the name though :(<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <158.c6ba94a.29ede9ff@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 21:13:08 GMT Daylight Time, 
ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:


> > It  has to be safe and readily available at all times.
> 
> Nah.  Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the
> resources and reputation of the company.

Which is harder if you the people you are borrowing from know that you have 
no way of spreading the risk.

> > compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a 
> spiral
> > -  we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet
> > all of  them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet
> > these costs.  Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have
> > previously paid  them, saving us in the long run, money.
> 
> Well, given that it's your fault, the insurance is likely to be reluctant 
> to
> pay anyway.

Fault is not always relevant from an insurance companies point of view. It 
may be stuck with representing you whether it likes it or not.

> > 
> > And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want
> > absorb  the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to
> > perform some  unplanned demolition on the local school district? 
> 
> Many real-world large companies do exactly that.
> 
Not the sensible ones,

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 21:13:08 GMT Daylight Time, ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; It&nbsp; has to be safe and readily available at all times.<BR>
<BR>
Nah.&nbsp; Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the<BR>
resources and reputation of the company.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Which is harder if you the people you are borrowing from know that you have no way of spreading the risk.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral<BR>
&gt; -&nbsp; we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet<BR>
&gt; all of&nbsp; them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet<BR>
&gt; these costs.&nbsp; Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have<BR>
&gt; previously paid&nbsp; them, saving us in the long run, money.<BR>
<BR>
Well, given that it's your fault, the insurance is likely to be reluctant to<BR>
pay anyway.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Fault is not always relevant from an insurance companies point of view. It may be stuck with representing you whether it likes it or not.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; <BR>
&gt; And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want<BR>
&gt; absorb&nbsp; the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to<BR>
&gt; perform some&nbsp; unplanned demolition on the local school district? <BR>
<BR>
Many real-world large companies do exactly that.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
Not the sensible ones,<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:58:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:58:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <103.13d0e078.29edea3d@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 21:33:55 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com 
writes:


> We could go on and discuss how reserves are handled, explain 
> the concept of the "book of business", and talk about 
> reinsurance.
> 
> IMTU I feel that ship insurance is handled much more like 
> Lloyd's (with individuals teaming up to take on risk) rather 
> than like the auto insurance model.  Starships seem so much 
> more risky than automobiles, and the payout on loss is so 
> high, that I can truly see it taking a form resembling 
> organized gambling (which is, after all, what Lloyd's is 
> running - the world's highest paying casino - hope you don't 
> lose).
> 

I like Lloyds - there's nothing more satisfying than watching the complacent 
rich get their come-uppance ;)

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 21:33:55 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">We could go on and discuss how reserves are handled, explain <BR>
the concept of the "book of business", and talk about <BR>
reinsurance.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU I feel that ship insurance is handled much more like <BR>
Lloyd's (with individuals teaming up to take on risk) rather <BR>
than like the auto insurance model.&nbsp; Starships seem so much <BR>
more risky than automobiles, and the payout on loss is so <BR>
high, that I can truly see it taking a form resembling <BR>
organized gambling (which is, after all, what Lloyd's is <BR>
running - the world's highest paying casino - hope you don't <BR>
lose).<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I like Lloyds - there's nothing more satisfying than watching the complacent rich get their come-uppance ;)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_103.13d0e078.29edea3d_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:59:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:59:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com>

Anthony Jackson writes:
<Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would 
work
reasonably well against just about any weapon.>

Ok, what is the difference between sand and chaff?  I always that chaff was 
strips of foil cut to a particular length of the
wavelength of a radar, and the sand in a sandcaster used particles of the 
correct size to interact with the laser wavelength.  I thought they were 
the same process.

John T. Kwon writes:
<As for a particle beam, the amount of material is so
miniscule, and so thinly spread (the beam is probably
neutrons), that sand would be useless. These beams are also
regarded as being more effective at penetrating armor (from
the point of view of the Air Force) than a laser. Both
radiation damage and deep heating are expected to occur with
a particle beam weapon>

That makes sense. (disclaimer, I am not a physicist, nor do I play one on 
TV).  Now I wonder if an X-ray laser would functionally
equivelent to a neutral particle beam? (in game terms)

I remember that in CT that one of the subjects of Imperial Research 
Stations was suggested to be X-ray lasers.  I have read somewhere that we 
can make X-ray lasers now.  In my campaigns I told the players that they 
were restricted military technology,
with the same penalties as possessing nuclear weapons.  (you got the death 
penalty)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <20020416.165610.-108551.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Congratulations!  The award is well deserved.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"


On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 07:23:41 -0400 Jeff Zeitlin
<editor@freelancetraveller.com> writes:
> I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
> protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make 
> Freelance
> Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
> flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, 
> I
> never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to 
> be
> _recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
> 
> Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who 
> has
> allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your 
> work
> more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As 
> long as
> you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; 
> people
> like you are too valuable to lose.
> 
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
> Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller 
> Resource
> http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
> http://www.freelancetraveller.com
> http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
> editor@freelancetraveller.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

                


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:01:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:01:31 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com> <3CBC7F09.6050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CBC9112.90505@telocity.com>

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>> Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
>> skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
>> They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
>> thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
>> in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
>> living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.
>
>
>
> Eris' methods:
>
> PC's inherit fine, functioning starship. PC's overjoyed, one 
> particularly stupid one makes dumb DUMB comments about how easy it'll 
> be to compete with ship owners who have a mortgage to pay. (Gee I 
> wonder who?;-)
>
> Bad guys steal ship.
>
> Space Patroooool to the Rescuuue! <sound of inspirational music, 
> punctuated by large explosions>
>
> Space Patrol "Here. We caught the hijackers and recovered your ship. 
> Thank us!"
>
> PC's "But there are large holes in our ship where there used to be a 
> jump drive, a drive controller, and a safe in the ship's locker"
>
> SP: "Well they didn't surrender peacefully. Thank us and don't ask 
> questions."
>
> PC's notice that SP officer is wearing secret police uniform."Thank you"
>
> PC's go to bank and get large loan to get ship flying again.
>
> <scrape scrape> Hold up cardboard signs "Will carry stuff for credits" 
> just like all the other free traders...

Ah! Bruce has devined my methods...I will have to be more subtle when 
next I raid their treasury. <g>

Eris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:03:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:03:15 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <F37TW5k1Ed28kIN4MmX00001857@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.132856.6I9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
> In mail, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote
>
>>
>>Space is *big*. And they'll be visible the whole time.
>>
>>That's the problem. there's a whole lot of nothing, and even a small
>>ship stands out like a sore thumb.
>>
>
> So how does a starship of say, 400Dtons (ISTR 'Patrol Cruisers' were one 
> ship of choice for the discerning Ethically Challenged Merchant*) compare to 
> a fairly small asteroid?  Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in 
> near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near 
> misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a 
> single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?

We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.

> Is that a pirate out there, or a customs ship making sure you are behaving 
> yourself, or a sensor glitch, or an asteroid, or...

Asteroids aren't moving at hundreds of km/sec. And they aren't going to
be on intercept courses either. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:03:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:03:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20020416031009.2bda525e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20416.134013.8u0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
>> things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
>> buildings and the like.
>
> Thank you for hitting me with the "stupid" stick for the second time in
> the last days, Leonard  :-)

Not stupid. Just a bad case of "oops!".

Remember, you only embarassed yourself on the list. Think of all the
folks involved with Babylon 5 who made the ""million tons of spinning
metal" goof in the opening sequence (hint: a mass of *air* the size of
babylon 5 weighs more than a million tons :-)

And I'm rather suspicious of the masses David Weber gives for a lot of
the ships in the Honor Harrington stuff too.

Like I said, we don't have experience with this sort of thing so we
have no judgement for the numbers involved.

> I'll crawl back into my dark corner now.

Nah, if everyone who goofed did that who'd be posting? :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:04:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:04:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8e0f93f2f0d@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20416.134553.3z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>>todal forces are the same.
>
> A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the 
> size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity 
> in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal 
> gradient.

Actually, the tidal force varies *linearly* with the distance from the
center of mass of the body experiencing the tidal forces. Not *quite*
the same thing as varying with the size. 

As a good example, consider some folks in spacesuits tethered to a
ship. The forces they experience depend on the distance and direction
from the ship, not on the size of the ship.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:04:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:04:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> For Mercury (5.43), Venus (5.24) and Earth (5.52), yes.
> For Mars (3.93), any Jovian moon (some of which are considered "rocky", e.g.
> Io, at 3.53), and a few others, no.
> Personally, I'd reckon that density can vary considerably even for rocky
> worlds, say from 3.0 to nearly 7.8 (almost totally iron) or 8.5+ (almost
> totally nickel).

There are "clusters". And it's *really* unlikely that any sizable body
will have a density much above Mercury's. At least in a "normal"
system. The planets that form around supernova remnants are likely to
be very different.

>> So if there's any sort of safety factor built in to the "100 diameter"
>> rule, it'll work fine except in *really* oddball situations (say trying
>> to jump close to a *big* nickel-iron asteroid).
>
> So ... if I had a planet with an extremely large Ni-Fe core, and a higher
> mean density as a result, say towards 6.5 or 7.0, then the 100D rule would
> not be good enough. Another hazard for exploring uncharted systems, I guess.

Ain't gonna happen. The abundance of materials in the cloud of dust and
gas a system forms from means that anything with a substantial iron
core will have a lot more rocky material overlying it. 

The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.

>> The details *do* matter, because the forces at the *hull* of even a
>> small ship will *exceed* those from a planet at 100 diameters. That's a
>> *unavoidable*.
>
> Leonard, please don't emphasise words with asterisks. It just makes
> things harder to read and comes over patronising, even if that's not
> intended.

> *Try* *reading* *this* *sentence* *to* *see* *what* *I* *mean*.

I'm not going to quit indicating emphasis. And the alternatives are
asterisks or underlines and the asterisks are much easier to hit. 

Yes, it's harder to read a sentence where you individually emphasize
each word with them. But that's not what I'm doing.

As for patronizing, I'm not responsible for what you read into what I
write.

> Also, if we have to handwave away the tidal gradient due to the
> ship's hull, then I'd argue that the tidal gradient is not the
> principal factor in a misjump, no matter how well the figures fit.

Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
something that will be directly proportional to it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <OF7A3367D5.83EB7401-ON85256B9D.0057F13F@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBC9264.2050709@telocity.com>

William Lane wrote:

>OBTRAV:
>
>The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
>Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
>engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
>Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
>other.
>
>Captain asks "What are you doing?"
>
>New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
>works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
>
>Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P
>
Okay, Greg, how much you going to pay me not to pass *this* one along to 
Misha? <g>

The gang in the Reaver's Deep game just hired a Vargr engineer (played 
by Misha). Her first action aboard the ship was to hang from an overhead 
pipe with her head in the jump drive while she "checked it out."  I'll 
let Captain Jason (Greg) tell you what happened next...<g>

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
 <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416161824.01e88790@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:22 PM 4/16/2002, Texas Redshift wrote:
>At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
>Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
>judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?  Does the Imperium have a civil 
>court and what jurisdiction does it assert? Is jury trial available?  Are 
>judges elected? Appointed?

All of the following should be prefixed with the comment that I'm referring 
to My Traveller Universe, and so this may not hold for anyone else.  I 
don't know what the Canon has to say on the matter; while a lot has been 
written about the various Traveller militaries, I don't think anyone has 
ever written a supplement about lawyers and lawsuits in the Imperium.  ;-)

First of all, following a general legal principle IMTU, if the parties in 
any sort of legal action are located on the same world, then the legal 
action is resolved using that world's laws, judicial system, and 
practices.  Member worlds can basically do anything that they would like in 
this arena, subject to some basic guidelines (recognition of Imperial 
currency, validity of Imperial contracts, laws, charters, etc.) that worlds 
agree to implement as a condition of membership in the Imperium.  Outside 
of those guidelines, member worlds can (and do) have just about any sort of 
legal system, from the King's justice dispensed at sword-point to a complex 
web of liability, contract, and insurance laws that makes the 21st-century 
USA look non-litigious.

Only when the issue involves more than one world does Imperial law 
apply.  The Imperium has basic contract and liability law, written (as are 
most Imperial laws) primarily for the benefit of interstellar trade, 
commerce (and therefore primarily of benefit to business that operate on an 
interstellar scale).  IMTU, Imperial (interstellar) society is not very 
litigious - partially due to the nature of the society (which prefers an 
out-of-court settlement of some type), and partially due to the high cost 
of bringing an interstellar suit.  IMTU the Imperium has both civil and 
criminal courts, both administered by the nobility.  In general, the case 
is heard in the plaintiff's venue.

If they press onward, the case is heard by a judge (jury trials are not 
available).  In some cases, the judge is the appropriate noble in person; 
but for the most part, judges are appointed by the noble to act in his or 
her stead.  Judges serve at the noble's convenience, and can be replaced by 
him or her at any time (but usually are not, and serve until they 
retire).  Appeals are possible up the chain of fealty (all the way to the 
Emperor, at least in theory).  In the case where a judge is appointed, an 
appeal directly to the noble who appointed him or her is also possible.  In 
all cases, appeals are unlikely to succeed.  Jury trials are not available.

Most nobles tend to view cases that actually come before them with a bit of 
prejudice "which of the parties is being stubborn and unwilling to settle 
out of court?"  The reputations of the lawyers representing the parties, 
and (particularly where large corporations are involved) the reputations of 
the parties themselves often has a large influence on the outcome of the 
trial:  "Bernard Hault-Wugga?  Aren't you Baron Wishaggga's son?  OK, 
Bernie, exactly how has SuSAG wronged your client?  They did what?  Oh, of 
course; how dreadful.  MCr 3 in putative damages sounds good.  See you at 
the Solar Yacht Race next week?  Good, tell you father hello from me."  (an 
extreme example, but no doubt it happens).

For role-playing purposes, this lets the referee be as arbitrary as needed 
(and also gives the players incentive to find some other way - any other 
way - of settling differences).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:09:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:09:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018991242.5758.ajackson@ping>

Dale Gyles writes:
> Anthony Jackson writes:
> <Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would 
> work
> reasonably well against just about any weapon.>
> 
> Ok, what is the difference between sand and chaff?

The purpose of chaff is obscuring sensors.  The purpose of sand, as described
in Traveller, is stopping weapons fire.

>  I always that chaff was
>  strips of foil cut to a particular length of the
> wavelength of a radar, and the sand in a sandcaster used particles of the 
> correct size to interact with the laser wavelength.  I thought they were 
> the same process.

Well, there's a fairly significant difference, in that radar does not generally
have the power to burn through an inch of steel.
> 
> That makes sense. (disclaimer, I am not a physicist, nor do I play one on 
> TV).  Now I wonder if an X-ray laser would functionally
> equivelent to a neutral particle beam? (in game terms)

No, though a gamma ray laser would be fairly similar (somewhat different
penetration).
> 
> I remember that in CT that one of the subjects of Imperial Research 
> Stations was suggested to be X-ray lasers.  I have read somewhere that we 
> can make X-ray lasers now.  In my campaigns I told the players that they 
> were restricted military technology,
> with the same penalties as possessing nuclear weapons.  (you got the death 
> penalty)

I seem to recall something about X-ray lasers being developed, but they're not
exactly weapons-grade.  The old SDI people talked about bomb-pumped X-ray
lasers, a mechanism which AFAIK has never been successfully demonstrated, not
that this prevent people from using it in SF.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:02:50 +1000, Timothy Little
> <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:
>
>>JR Holmes wrote:
>>> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force
>>> upon itself
>>
>>You are.  This is very important in determining Roche's limit, for
>>example.
>
> I remain unconvinced in this regard.  "Roche's Limit is the distance
> from a planet inside which a satellite will be torn apart by tidal
> forces." (from http://www.cvc.org/astronomy/roche_limit.htm) or
> "Roche's Limit, which is the distance from a planet at which the
> planet's tidal force on a satellite (tending to stretch apart) is
> equal to the satellite's self-gravity (tending to hold it together)."
> (from http://utrao.as.utexas.edu/ast301/log/log22.html)
>
> As per the above, Roche's Limit is where these tidal forces (a
> tensional force) equal the compressional forces of an object's own
> gravity.  But this is in regard to the tidal forces exerted _with
> regard to another body_.  Without the other body, no tidal force.
>
> It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In another
> of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional and
> compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive me if
> I am interpreting you incorrectly).  I believe you are in error in
> this regard.  As per the above, the compressional forces are due to
> the object's self-gravity and only the tensional forces are due to the
> influence of another body and therefore are tidal forces.

No. Tidal forces are *away* from the center of the satellite along the
line joining it to the primary (ie the side closest to the primary is
pulled towards the primary, and the side opposite the primary is pulled
*away* from the primary. 

But the forces in the plane perpendicular to that line are *towards*
the center of the satellite. 

so if you were orbiting close to a neutron star in a space suit, your
feet would be pulled towards the star, your head would be pulled away
from it and your waist would be getting squeezed. 

Look at it like this. If you are orbiting, the center of your body is
moving at the right speed in the right direction. It's in freefall. 

But a point farther from the primary, if left to itself would be
traveling in a *different* orbit. With a different velocity. Ditto for
points closer to the primary, and for point "ahead" or "behind" the
center. And the same foes for point to the "left" and "right" of the
center.

The points closer to and farther from the primary would be moving *away*
from the center if they weren't attached. The ones ahead, behind and to
the sides would be moving *closer* to the center.

And that's essentially where the forces come from. Self gravity of the
body has nothing to do with it, and, in fact for a body that has to
worry about the Roche Limit, the forces *far* exceed its self gravity.

Get a copy of Dr. Robert Forward's book "Indistinguishable from Magic".
It's got a chapter on tidal forces, complete with diagrams and formulas.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <158.c6ba94a.29ede9ff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018991982.113.ajackson@ping>

CHam628781@aol.com writes:
> > Nah.  Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the
> > resources and reputation of the company.
> 
> Which is harder if you the people you are borrowing from know that you have
>  no way of spreading the risk.

Right, but the point is you don't need to have _ready_ cash.  You just need
assets which can be used to back a loan.
> 
> Fault is not always relevant from an insurance companies point of view. It 
> may be stuck with representing you whether it likes it or not.

Depends on how the insurance contract was written.

> > Many real-world large companies do exactly that.
> > 
> Not the sensible ones,

Many real-world companies are only insured for extremely large losses; you just
set the deductible high enough that it absorbs the vast majority of problems
directly.  Beyond a certain point, it's better for a company to risk going
bankrupt due to a major problem than pay out huge premiums (arguably,
bankruptcy law is itself a form of insurance).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:26:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:26:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Bruce Johnson asks
> 
>>How long did your party survive before the local residents 
>>rounded you  up and hung you?
>>
> 
> That was the problem.  They had friends.  We got back to 
> town, and they heard about it.  Later that day, when we were 
> strolling into the front foyer of the guest house were were 
> staying at, three men stepped into the room and opened up on 
> us with submachineguns.  Of the six people in our party, one 
> survived.  The three attackers died, but the locals were 
> steamed enough to shoot the survivor after hearing his tale.

I suspect the locals were *more* steamed about the firefights going on 
in public spaces. I'd wager that the 3 surviving members of that guys 
friends were fined heavily for the damage.

> It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
> principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
> friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
> received.

The real key to this is to understand what a LL0 world is like.

Probably quite polite and formal, since it's likely heavily armed...and 
the local citizenry is entirely likely to feel that maintaining public 
order is incumbent on all members of society, as well as enforcement, 
since LL0 worlds tend also to be low GOV worlds too.

A good one to spring on a bunch of unsuspecting PC's...land them 
someplace they're expecting to be Dodge City, and discover that it's 
anything but, that their 'uncivilized' behavior is quickly, but firmly 
corrected...permanently, if necessary...think a Heinleinian world of 
self-reliant, armed and polite strangers...
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBC9A4C.4000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

William Lane wrote:

> 
> Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
> everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
> info.

That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
XML to Cobol and back...

oBTRav> Captain finds engineer hip deep in the Jump drive controller 
with an exceptionally old-looking piece of hardware in his hands.

Captain: "Good lord, Scottie! That's a jump *tape* reader! What is that 
antique doing on my jump drive??"

Engineer: "Well Captain, we cannae find the right components to rrepair 
the drive controller. Urgvark" he points to a crazed looking Vargr 
assistant engineer, "...found this in a antique shop. We're tying it 
into the saircuit right now."

C: "But how will we control it? I haven't seen a jump tape in my life 
that wasn't in a museum!"

E:"Well Captain, I have a writing head from a holocorder here, we can 
connect it to the main computer, and have it translate the control 
instructions from the astrogation program to the correct patterns that a 
jump tape would have. It should work, in theory, sah. " Shouts "OK 
Urgvark! Give me some power..."

<SNAP> <Pop fsssssshhhhhh> "Turn it off! Turn it off!"

E: Through the smoke..."Ahh captain, we're going ta need some morrre 
time..."

C: weeps.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018993271.7515.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
> The real key to this is to understand what a LL0 world is like.
> 
> Probably quite polite and formal, since it's likely heavily armed...and 
> the local citizenry is entirely likely to feel that maintaining public 
> order is incumbent on all members of society, as well as enforcement, 
> since LL0 worlds tend also to be low GOV worlds too.

Well, the majority of LL0 worlds are very lightly populated as well, and quite
likely don't have much of anything recognizeable as 'public order' -- just some
isolated people.  Of course, then you have worlds like Efate.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:32 PM +1000 4/16/02, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
>(of radiation effects on fertility)
>>  Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in
>>  men, if you prefer)?
>
>Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
>the testis to ionising radiation.

Though it will need to be more pentrating since the ovaries are 
deeper in the body so it will depend on the kind of radiation? 
(Though it maybe that this is getting into to much details for rpgs 
that usualy feature "radiation").

>
>Larsen Whipsnade wrote :-
>>  GURPS, in Compendium II, handles this in the following manner.
>>  If a female has a lifetime dose of 250 rads, her offspring, and
>>  any problems they may have, are entirely at the GM's discretion.
>There probably won't be any offspring (permanent sterility in 75%).
>
>>  Realistic?  Yes.
>Nah, in GURPS it's usually an excuse for the GM to introduce Weird
>Mutant Powers (TM) <g>

I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the 
fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018978883.2225.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1018978883.2225.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330108b8e24c8654f3@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:41 AM -0700 4/16/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Texas Redshift writes:
>>  As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
>>  something:
>>
>>  At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
>>  Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
>>  judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
>
>Depends on the world.  There are canon references to 'government of men, not
>laws', which implies on the interstellar level it's not litigous per se, and
>annoying the local judge with frivolous suits is probably a poor idea.

That is consistent with a world where corporations conduct morally 
challenged acts without being continuously in court (to, at one 
extreme, being able to conduct trade wars on each other).

Also, if megacorps are as powerful as they are depicted, then should 
be able to avoid a situations where it is "easy" to sue them.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <20416.132856.6I9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.132856.6I9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330109b8e24d6388f8@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:28 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in
>  > near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near
>>  misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a
>>  single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?
>
>We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
>outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.

We are looking.  There is a program underway to catalog Earth 
crossing asteroids....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134553.3z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.134553.3z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010ab8e24dae9b06@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:45 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>>>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>>>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>>>todal forces are the same.
>>
>>  A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the
>>  size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity
>>  in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal
>>  gradient.
>
>Actually, the tidal force varies *linearly* with the distance from the
>center of mass of the body experiencing the tidal forces. Not *quite*
>the same thing as varying with the size.

The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also 
true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to 
another will depend on how far apart they are.

>
>As a good example, consider some folks in spacesuits tethered to a
>ship. The forces they experience depend on the distance and direction
>from the ship, not on the size of the ship.

True.  Though the difference in force between the guy in the space 
suit different parts of the ship will depend on the size of the ship.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <15c.be25cf3.29ede8fa@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 04:52:10PM -0400
References: <15c.be25cf3.29ede8fa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020416155914.C13552@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 04:52:10PM -0400, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> No, insurance companies tend to insure themselves against risk as well.

Yeah--from other insurance companies.  But there's no magic there: a
company as large as that collection of insurance companies can insure
itself.

And yes, if enough bad things happen at once the insurance system
would fail, just as a company would fail if it self-insured.

Generally, if you can afford it, self-insurance makes much more sense.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the people of
the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own
arms.                            --Samuel Adams, brewer and patriot

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020416081241.C25846@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.141048.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Both methane and ammonia will burn with oxygen. So you crack some water
>> (thermally or via electrolysis) and use the oxygen to burn the methane
>> and ammonia to N2, H20 & CO2. You condense the H20 and crack it to get
>> back the oxygen. The CO2 and N2 get either discrard or fed into the
>> life support system's atomosphere reprocessing section. 
>
> I don't see what I get from this.
>
> IMTU, there is only a small tank capable of holding LHyd with all the
> associated cryogenic systems, ultralow temperature pumps and such
> expensive stuff.  It primarily feeds the jump drive when entering
> jump.  The rest of the fuel space is designed to hold water which I
> can slowly refine using a fuel processor during jump.

If you are tanking from a body that has ammonia and/or methane in
addition to the water, you can shovel "ice" (or pump liquid
ammonia/methane) into a holding tank. It's not that hard to seperate
the methane, ammonia and water. And you'd need to be able to do that to
refuel from the colder iceballs anyway.

In the OTU, the tankage is for liquid hydrogen. If you are grabbing
water or whatever to "wilderness refuel" you have to extract and
liquefy the hydrogen before storing it in the tanks.

And BTW, you have to do more than just *cool* the hydrogen to get
liquid hydrogen. There are two forms of the hydrogen molecule. One has
the spins of the atoms parallel, the other has them opposing. 

One form is slightly more energetic than the other and left to itself,
will spontaneously convert to the lower energy form, releasing heat.
This takes place slowly. 

Unfortunately, it also releases enough heat to boil LH2! So you have to
use special catlysts to ensure that all the hydrogen is converted to
the low energy form before you put it in the tanks. Otherwise, the
spontaneous conversion will boil the tanks dry in a few hours. 

NASA had great fun with this problem until they found the catalysts
(fairly cheap, but they do add another step to the process of making
fuel). 

Because of this, converting water to LH2 on the fly isn't going to work
for stuff like the jump drive. You need the required fuel stored *as*
LH2 before you start.

> So the limit on how much fuel I can hold is how much oxygen is
> available to bind the hydrogen into water for my large (and cheap)
> tanks.  Discarding CO2 from burning methane is hence worse than just
> throwing away the methane.  I might extract some nitrogen from the
> ammonia to replenish any atmosphere losses, but that's about it.

No, because you aren't getting *hydrogen* when you refuel from an
iceball, just when you refuel by scooping a gas giant. And in that
case, you'll need a *lot* of oxygen, and need it fast. Check out how
much space *8* tons (mass) of liquid oxygen takes up. Because you'll
need 8 tons of oxygen for every ton of hydrogen. Remember, it takes
*nine* tons of water to produce *one* ton of hydrogen. And you'll have
to have to have *seperate* tanks for the 9 tons of water, the 8 tons of
LOX, and the 1 ton of LH2.

Storing *just* LH2 is a *lot* simpler.

When you refuel from an iceball you are getting one of the following:

Water
Water and ammonia
Water, ammonia and methane

So, as I said, you extract the oxygen from the water and store the
hydrogen.

You then use the extracted oxygen to convert the ammonia into
nitrogen and water. You keep as much of the nitrogen as you want, and
discard the rest. The water gets converted to LH2 and oxygen (ie you
*recover* the oxygen you extracted from the water you "mined").

Next, you use the oxygen (still not touching your original oxygen
supplies on board the ship) to convert the methane to CO2 and water.
The water gets processed as before, giving hydogen and oxygen.

You can either discard the CO2, *or* you can feed it thru the section
of your life support system that cracks CO2 into carbon and oxygen. And
yes, given a fusion power plant, as well as cryogenic gear, this is a
reasonable way of dealing with CO2 on board a ship. 

Matter of fact, odds are that part of the "filters" in the life support
system ammount to condensing excess water out of the air (there will
*always* be excess water as we produce it from the hydrogen in our food
and the oxygen we breathe). 

Next, the air will be flash heated (with or without a catalyst) to burn
all organic gases. Finally, a catalyst will be used to break down any
nitrogen oxides formed by the flash heating, and the O2 and N2 will be
put back in circulation, while the CO2 will be cracked into carbon and
oxygen. And actual chemical filters will deal with any remaining
contaminants (traces of stuff like chlorine & sulfur compounds, etc)

It's possible that smaller ships (and auxilluary craft) will just use
chemical filters to extract water vapor, CO2, and other contaminants).
LiOH to extract CO2, Various other things to extract water vapor, and
activated charcoal to get (most) of the other trace gases. 

But those will need changing and require "recharging" (basicly you heat
them to drive off the water/CO2/whatever).

Anyway, ships will be able to deal with converting CO2 to carbon and
oxygen. Getting rid of the carbon from processing a lot of methane will
be a major pain though. Some poor crewbeing will probably have to
either "shovel" what amounts to soot out of the gear and haul it to an
airlock to dump, or maybe (if you process stuff a bit differently) chop
slabs of graphite out of the processor. And, again dump them.

So methane would be something you might *not* want to process. But
there will be times when it's worth the hassle. 

Oh yeah, actually, the odds are you'd seperate the methane *first*,
simply because it will be the first component of the mix to turn into a
gas.

         melts   boils
         ------  ------
methane	 -182.4  -161.5
ammonia   -77.4   -33.3
water       0     100

So, as you heat the mix, first the methane liquefies, then it
vaporizes. You can discard it, or use oxygen to process it. Or, if you
do this a lit, you might have gear set up to directly crack the methane
into hydogen and carbon.

Next the ammonia liquefies and then vaporizes. And then when the water
melts, it would get dissolved in the water (great if you are
electrolyzing water, not so great otherwise). 

Again, you can either "burn" the ammonia with oxygen (I use quotes
because there are catalysts that'll make it happen at much lower temps)
or you might be equiped to "crack" it into nitrogen and hydrogen.
Cracking won't work nearly as well though, since both components are
gasses. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:08:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:08:41 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020416155310.3125.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20416.150551.5I5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> ObTrav:  There is a (Star Trek created?) stereotype of
> the engineer who can fix anything but no one can tell
> how he does it.  What other stereotypes are common in
> your games?

The "engineer as wizard" stereotype has existed *at least* as long as
widespread use of steam engines. And some would argue it goes back to
the old seige engineers of medieval and Roman times.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:09:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:09:19 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20416.150857.9F1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 02:16 PM 4/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>>
>> > In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
>> > starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
>> > stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
>>
>>Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right when the user no
>>longer understands what's going on behind the 'curtain'.
>
> Hell, for me that's today!  I can use my comp[uter, but for all I know, 
> this beige box is actually home to a tribe of magic pixes.

(uh-oh, he's beginning to catch on! :-)

> I still find it amazing and rather magical that this little bit of dreck 
> will be read by people on the other side of the planet (hi Jens and Hans!) 
> I sort of understand that it will be shuffled around by a lot of computers 
> that do that sort of thing, but beyond that?  Nothing.

It's actually *not* all that hard to understand. Really. But it
involves paying more attention to *details* than most folks care to. 

> "Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
>   with sex." - Fry, Futurama

Hmm. Must be looking at the wrong sites. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <OF7A3367D5.83EB7401-ON85256B9D.0057F13F@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <20416.151127.3N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> OBTRAV:
>
> The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
> Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
> engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
> Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
> other.
>
> Captain asks "What are you doing?"
>
> New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
> works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
>
> Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P

An *intelligent* captain will just chalk it up to "personal quirks" as
long as the job gets done. And if things seem to be working better than
he'd expect, he may wind up asking the engineer for more info about
Jabobo. <g>

If it works, don't knock it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com> <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net> <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020417081359.A28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> "Roche's Limit, which is the distance from a planet at which the
> planet's tidal force on a satellite (tending to stretch apart) is
> equal to the satellite's self-gravity (tending to hold it together)."
> (from http://utrao.as.utexas.edu/ast301/log/log22.html)

Anaother way to say the same thing is "where the net tidal gradient
becomes tensional in at least one direction".  Self-gravity *is* a
tidal force.


> As per the above, Roche's Limit is where these tidal forces (a
> tensional force) equal the compressional forces of an object's own
> gravity.

The compressional forces of an object's own gravity *are* tidal
gradients.  Roche's limit is where the sum of the external and
internal tides cancel (in one direction) for a body of given
composition.


> It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In
> another of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional
> and compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive
> me if I am interpreting you incorrectly).

Yes.  Consider a near-massless spaceship somewhere near the Earth,
with bow pointing directly outward from it.  A point on the bow is a
bit further from the Earth than the center, so the gravitational
attraction toward Earth's center is weaker.  Likewise, the
gravitational attraction is stronger at the stern.  This is the
tensional aspect of the tidal gradient.

Now consider points on the port and starboard.  Both feel the same
magnitude of gravitational acceleration, but the *direction* is
different.  The vector difference between the two results in an inward
(compressional) force.  Likewise for the "top" and "bottom" of the
ship.

So the external tides exert a compression force as well as a tensional
one.


Now consider a spacecraft with significant density.  In this case, the
same argument applies to give a tensional gradient (due to the Earth),
but now you have to add the self-gravity.  The bow experiences a weak
Earthward acceleration due to self-gravity, and the stern experiences
an outward force.  This sums with the Earth's tidal force to give a
result that could be either tensional or compressional, depending on
how close to Earth the starship is and on what it's density is.
(Compressional far from the Earth, possibly tensional closer in).

The top and bottom of the ship are subject to a sum of compressional
forces alone.


The actual mathematics is much simpler in many regards than the
example, but the result is the same.  The tidal gradient at any given
point is expressed as a matrix, with trace equal to the density at the
point in question.  The eigenvalues and eigenvectors of the matrix
tell you the magnitude and directions of the forces due to the
gradient.  Even a pebble in otherwise completely empty space has tidal
gradients inside and out, and those gradients are not appreciably
weaker than the tidal gradients around and within the Moon.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020417082001.B28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.

Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
a nitpick.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3cbf94aa.16351970@post.demon.co.uk>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

>That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
>wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
>convincing opposing argument:-)

What if you're charged by n+1 people with pointy sticks, where n is
the number of bullets you're carrying?

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:34:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3CBC7D4F.7020102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200204161741.EEV03115@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416183650.00b8f070@urbin.net>

At 12:36 PM 4/16/02 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>John T. Kwon wrote:
>>I got out of the car with the others, and asked the other driver if he 
>>had insurance.  He said, "No."  So I said to my friends, "I think we 
>>should wait for the police."  They laughed and said, "Hey stupid, there 
>>are no police."
>>So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the occupants of the 
>>other car without warning.  Then we went through their pockets for loose 
>>change.
>How long did your party survive before the local residents rounded you up 
>and hung you?

That's why he should have checked for witnesses first.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:35:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:35:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>

Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:

>>Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =3D20
>
>Shouldnt the hull code be Z? I though Y was for 1,000,000 to=20
>1,999,999. Z was for anything above that.=20

Y is for 1,000,000 to "the next stated level" - but there isn't one,
so I'm assuming it's just "over a million tons".  Z is "Reserved".

>>MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
>Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
>Architects fees? Anyone?

Standard cost.  If you *really* want to start mass-producing these
things, you scare me ;-)

I didn't include the architect's fees, but they'd be TCr 376,770.  The
kind of contract every naval architect dreams of.

Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:39:03 2002
Subject: Engineer Voodoo (was: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?)
References: <20416.151127.3N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CBCA7CB.11BDF34@premier.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > OBTRAV:
> >
> > The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
> > Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
> > engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
> > Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
> > other.
> >
> > Captain asks "What are you doing?"
> >
> > New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
> > works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
> >
> > Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P
> 
> An *intelligent* captain will just chalk it up to "personal quirks" as
> long as the job gets done. And if things seem to be working better than
> he'd expect, he may wind up asking the engineer for more info about
> Jabobo. <g>

Actually, given that "Voodoo is an animist faith. That is, objects and
natural phenomena are believed to possess holy significance, to possess
a soul [*]," this seems a not-unreasonable belief system for an engineer
to have, assuming that additional syncretism has added technology to the
Voodoo gumbo.

Imagine if the engineer's version of Voodoo included the Evangelicals'
drive to proselytize:

"Have you accepted Jabobo as your personal Loa?" ;-)

[*] Quoted from the following Web site:

http://www.swagga.com/voodoo.htm

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3cbf94aa.16351970@post.demon.co.uk>; from tml@stempest.demon.co.uk on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:20:42PM +0000
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net> <3cbf94aa.16351970@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020416164940.A14019@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:20:42PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> 
> >That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
> >wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
> >convincing opposing argument:-)
> 
> What if you're charged by n+1 people with pointy sticks, where n is
> the number of bullets you're carrying?

That's why the steel.  And if the number of people involved >> n/2,
then I'm probably going to be running anyway:-)

Of course, all this is silly because I've never been attacked and
don't typically engage in activities which increase my risk of being
attacked.  I'm a rather quiet sort.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20416.141048.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020416081241.C25846@freeman.little-possums.net> <20416.141048.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> And BTW, you have to do more than just *cool* the hydrogen to get
> liquid hydrogen. There are two forms of the hydrogen molecule. One has
> the spins of the atoms parallel, the other has them opposing. 

I'm quite aware of that.  I'm also aware of various maethods for
dealing with it at *our* tech level, let alone TL10.


> Because of this, converting water to LH2 on the fly isn't going to
> work for stuff like the jump drive.

That's why I said that there is an auxiliary fuel tank for the jump
drive.  Besides, does it say anywhere that the jump drive actually
needs *liquid* hydrogen, or is that just how it is stored prior to
use?

IMTU, it needs pure hydrogen.  The physical form is preferably ionised
at a temperature of a few hundred thousand degrees, but it needs a
*lot*, *fast*.  It's a bit hard to store tonnes of 100+ kK plasma for
any length of time, and LH2 is a nice compact way to hold pure
hydrogen ready for injection.


> You need the required fuel stored *as* LH2 before you start.

Even if this was true, that's exactly what the canonical "fuel
processor" does.  It converts impure hydrogen and hydrogen compounds
(such as water) into LH2.  It even gives a rate at which it produces
the stuff.  Do you exclude fuel processors from your Traveller
universe?  That's what it sounds like.


> Check out how much space *8* tons (mass) of liquid oxygen takes up.

I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?

When I scoop ice from an iceball, I get lots of hydrogen in the form
of water.  Water is a more compact way to store hydrogen than LH2.  So
I *keep* the water.  I run the ammonia, methane, or some more water
through the fuel processor to fill up the smaller LH2 tanks (possibly
extracting some nitrogen for life support), throw away all the
methane, and either keep or throw away the ammonia.


> And you'll have to have to have *seperate* tanks for the 9 tons of
> water, the 8 tons of LOX, and the 1 ton of LH2.

No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.

The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.


> Oh yeah, actually, the odds are you'd seperate the methane *first*,
> simply because it will be the first component of the mix to turn
> into a gas.

Yep, mainly so I can get rid of it before putting it in the tanks at
all.  Ammonia I can deal with later, since I don't need highly
expensive long-term cryogenic tanks to hold ammonia solution.  I can
separate it later if I want.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Refining Fuel
Message-ID: <200204162252.EFF02983@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ok, so can I put solid rock in the refiner?

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%
7B1F54AEED-A34B-411B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com> <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020417085805.D28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Of course :)

It varies with which rules, time period, and dataset you use, but my
figures are on the order of 100 PCr/year.  Never seen a 'P' prefix
used before?  10^15, in case anyone was wondering ;)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:59:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:59:38 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020416190105.CB76627A2E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020416155253.00a4d980@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:38:41 -0400, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

>Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from
>the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
>again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up
>during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and
>said, "Behold, Our God!".

"Glory be to the Bomb, and to the Holy Fallout, as it was in the Beginning."

Put me down as another half-kill.  (I rarely drink at the keyboard.  Not 
while reading THIS list, anyway.)

It's sure nice to find out what sort of people were guarding our nuclear 
deterrent, back in the bad old days.



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:01:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:01:09 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/16/02 3:50 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
> over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
> LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
> unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
> paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.
> 
> The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
> volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
> water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
> upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.
> 

Just curious, but what about storing H2 as hydrides?  Don't you get a higher
density?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:06:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:06:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Damn mind rapers
Message-ID: <20020416230522.61559.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

<Arlin J. Schofield- OC>
P2GM - Hey John, what is the general level of public
acceptance of psi's. I'm sure the military characters
who have been in action against the zho's (like Arlin)
wont be to comfartable with a psi around. I think
unless the public don't mind psi's that those
discussing them should at least try to be quiet ;)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <200204161837.EEX02352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.155109.2O0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The spot size for the projected SBL is around a foot in 
> diameter. The US Air Force is assuming that missiles will be 
> painted or coated to optimize reflectivity, and they also 
> anticipate that the missiles will spin to reduce the 
> effectiveness of the laser.  "Sand" or some sort of 
> particulate matter that interferes with the operation of the 
> beam, would have to be held in close proximity to the ship.  
> The beam has such a small spot size, that to effectively 
> maintain a density of sand which would reduce the 
> effectiveness of the beam means that you cannot allow it to 
> disperse.  There are also plasmas that can be formed that 
> might increase the reflectivity of the ship itself at the 
> expense of increasing the ship''s signature.

Check for old discussions of how sand probably works.

A summary is:

the particles are spheres, and highly refactive at laser wavelengths.
Thus a portion of the beam will be refelected back at the source
(helping to blind sensors) before absorbed beam energy can disrupt the
particle. And the portion of the energy that is transmitted is
defocused. 

The particles take a fair amount of energy to melt. While molten they
continue to retro-reflect part of the beam and disperse the rest.

They take even more energy to vaporize and form a plasma easily. The
plasma is opaque to laser energy and absorbs even *more* of the beam
energy.

So yet get some sensor blinding for free, and the plasma generation
makes the required sand density much lower than would otherwise be
required. 

This would also make for nice visual effects as beams hit clouds of sand.

> The main way that the SBL intends to defeat reflective 
> coatings, spinning, heavier construction, ablative coatings, 
> and other countermeasures is to scale up the power.  In the 
> case of missiles, they give good arguments as to why the 
> countermeasures are, within an ability to hold the beam on 
> target for four seconds, ineffective.  That is, with current 
> tech, the coatings and spinning are already factored into the 
> laser's design.  

Well, in space, outside of low orbit, stuff like sand and "smoke" tend
to be rather more effective, because they don't get left behind. 

They don't make it impossible to zap the target, just harder.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:08:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:08:35 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20416.152426.1u5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:36:12AM +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
>> 
>> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
>> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
>> to see is a cloud of dust ;)
>
> Unless he's the faster...
>
> That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
> wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
> convincing opposing argument:-)

Perhaps you've heard the story about two hikers confronted by a bear.
One starts running and the oother follows. The second gasps why "why
are you running, the bear can outrun us"

The first replies "I don't need to outriun *him*. Just *you*!"

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:09:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:09:14 2002
Subject: [TML] CT/Book 5 question
In-Reply-To: <200204160206.EDP04153@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.152658.1R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> OK.  Actually a Book 5 question.  Ship has partial 
> streamlining. Under the rules, it can do gas giant 
> refueling.  If it can move through an upper atmosphere like 
> that (presumably at some velocity - after all, we don't want 
> to spiral in), can you land such a ship on a world with a 
> standard atmosphere?

As I recall, partial streamlining does allow landing on such a world.

> How does an air/raft do it?  1-G acceleration.  You're riding 
> in a vehicle about the size of a HMMWV with the top down.

> Feel that wind in your hair...

Not necessarily. It can simply climb vertically (and slowly) until it
is out of the atmosphere. Then it can accerlerate until it reaches
orbital *velocity. 

Remember, it's *much* easier to reach orbital *altitude* than orbital
velocity. That's the principle behind several weapons for taking out
low altitude satellites. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:09:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:09:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.153558.2c9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
> something:
>
> At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
> Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
> judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
>
> Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
> Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?
>
> What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?

I don't think canon covers it. But given some of the things that canon
sources have going on, I suspect that "frivilous" lawsuits are
discouraged in some manner. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:11:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:11:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417085805.D28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018998647.1051.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?
> 
> Of course :)
> 
> It varies with which rules, time period, and dataset you use, but my
> figures are on the order of 100 PCr/year.  Never seen a 'P' prefix
> used before?  10^15, in case anyone was wondering ;)

Hm...my figure seems to be at 103PCr/year, which is well within the margin of
error.  Of course, there's a fairly significant problem with the old Atlas of
the Imperium data -- there's only around 9,000 imperial worlds, not the 11,000
there's supposed to be.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018998784.5627.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
> over

Which is, based on the existence of drop tanks, equal to the total fuel
requirement of jump.  Water tanks are mostly useful for jumping _twice_.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:14:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:14:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Indistinguishable from Magic
In-Reply-To: <20020416190105.CB76627A2E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020416160033.00a50b10@mailhost.efn.org>

(was: How many credits is that?)

For a while now, I've taken Clarke's Law to apply all the way back to the 
first simple machines.  To someone who's never seen one before, even a 
lever is magical:  you push DOWN, and a much heavier thing on the other end 
goes UP, easily.  Thus, any technology that exceeds the capabilities of the 
unaided human body (strength, sight, speed, etc) is "magic."

It can even be argued that knowing (or thinking one knows) how something 
works does not make it less magic.  Surely the hypothetical medieval wizard 
would know as much about the alchemical and astrological correspondences, 
sacred geometry, the names of angels, and other important data about his 
profession as a telecom engineer does about phones and networks and 
switches.  And each would be equally convinced the other was practicing 
black witchcraft.

And I note that people still leave out tributes to faeries - only now they 
call them gremlins or Greys, to name but two of the new forms.

--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:16:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:16:55 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020416231354.82331.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's
going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

What, because you have dust in your veins instead of
blood?  ;-)
END QUOTE

No, because I am a vampire from buffy:the vampire
slayer ;P

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020416231641.82811.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Unless he's the faster...

That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy
stick all he wants.  But my lead and steel can, I
feel, come up with quite a convincing opposing
argument:-)
END QUOTE

Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
pointy stick :)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:18:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:18:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204150043.RAA22864@molly.iii.com> from "Anthony Jackson" at Apr 14, 2002 05:43:03 PM
Message-ID: <200204162126.g3GLQsn00991@localhost.uia.net>

> Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
> network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
> just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.
> 
> In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
> a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
> wormholes have to share a reference frame.

I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20416.155109.2O0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018999846.3010.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
> 
> The particles take a fair amount of energy to melt. While molten they
> continue to retro-reflect part of the beam and disperse the rest.
> 
> They take even more energy to vaporize and form a plasma easily. The
> plasma is opaque to laser energy and absorbs even *more* of the beam
> energy.

Now, let's consider a typical example: a typical TTL13 X-ray laser.  It focuses
to a beam 1 cm wide, with an unclear duration; we'll assume 100 milliseconds,
as that will avoid significant problems with the beam impact point moving.  The
total beam energy is on the order of 400 megajoules, and has a damage value
(T4) of 50.

The target is a 200 dton sphere, with a cross-section of 240 square meters. 
One can at AV 50 is 320 kilograms.  Since the beam has a cross-section of
0.0001 m^2, it actually strikes 0.13 grams of sand.

As it happens, X-rays can go through that much material without even worrying
about getting it out of the way.  Ignoring that, if we assume the 'sand' is
synthetic diamond, it has a heat of vaporization of 8 kilojoules.  Further
ignoring the fact that X-rays don't generally reflect very well, through a
variety of tricks we'll argue that the actual energy of vaporization is 1
megajoule (125x greater).

399 megajoules to go.  Well, perhaps the vapor is opaque.  Let's add another
megajoule to the vapor, heating it up to some obscene temperature, and assume
that 90% of the absorbed energy is lost to immediate reradiation.  The
remaining 100 kilojoules causes the gas in the path of the laser to explode
outwards, with an average velocity of 39 kilometers per second.  1 microsecond
later, the plasma has had its density drop by a factor of around 10, which
should allow the X-rays to shine through.  Since the power output is 4
megajoules per microsecond, the total energy absorbed by the sand is maybe 5
megajoules.  Gee, only another 80x increase in efficiency and we'll actually
stop the beam.

> Well, in space, outside of low orbit, stuff like sand and "smoke" tend
> to be rather more effective, because they don't get left behind. 

Well, if you don't use any thrust and use gravetics to prevent the stuff from
wandering, sure.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204162126.g3GLQsn00991@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019000154.7419.ajackson@ping>

jimv writes:

> I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim

All methods of using FTL to accomplish time travel rely on the fact that for
any form of FTL movement, there exists a reference frame where in some
direction or another, the FTL movement appears to be going backwards in time. 
Therefore, you move, shift velocity to a different reference frame, and then
reverse the trip.  The trip took positive time according to the ship's onboard
time, but negative time according to an outside observer.

If you require that all FTL movement occur within a single reference frame, you
can't change reference frames to make the round trip, and total trip time
always remains positive, though different reference frames will disagree as to
how the time requirement was divided up, and may claim that certain sections of
the trip took negative amounts of time.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damn mind rapers
Message-ID: <200204162344.EFH02038@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Psis are a military and internal security necessity.  I think 
that the whole B5 attitude towards them was pretty good.  
IBIS makes covert use of them.  The military intel people 
make use of them.  For some reason Vilani and Solomani aren't 
any good at PK or teleportation. That's something the Zhodani 
are good at.  Of course, it's not secret in the Zhodani 
Consulate - it's a way of life.

People do tend to dislike them, but that's the popular view.  
Many corporations use telepaths to verify truth and intent 
when signing major contracts.

Then again, they aren't common.  IBIS has a special division 
that trains them.  Rumor has it that they *are* the Psionics 
Institute.  One more reason that people don't trust the 
trained ones.  Untrained, well, some people can't help the 
way they were born.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
Message-ID: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see 
<http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file 
their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).

Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and 
although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the 
end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned 
for a financial year until after you've earned it.

Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
timetable works??

[ BTW, I'm only asking for a quick reply to a query. Anything further 
(anti-IRS rants, full 20-page technical descriptions of the US economy, 
etc etc) probably should go to the discussion list.  %^P  ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <3CBD64AF.31847.709971@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 20:32, Robert O'Connor wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
> (of radiation effects on fertility)
> > Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
> > men, if you prefer)?
> 
> Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
> the testis to ionising radiation.

How penetrating is ionising radiation in general? If it's not very 
penetrating there should be some adjustment made to allow for the 
ovaries being protected by being inside, rather than outside the torso.
 

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:04:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:04:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20416.134013.8u0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020416031009.2bda525e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CBD64AF.11090.709A27@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 13:40, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> And I'm rather suspicious of the masses David Weber gives for a lot of
> the ships in the Honor Harrington stuff too.

I'm rather suspicious of a lot of things in those books. As for the 
mass, I think he used a square when he should have used a cube law.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:05:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:05:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
In-Reply-To: <OFF290291A.CB37BC25-ONCA256B9D.0017EFD0@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3CBD64AF.28128.7098A2@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 16:17, david.d.jaques-watson@centrel wrote:

> You are not mistaken. It's mentioned in Striker Book 2, part of the 
> "Integrating with Traveller" section.
> 
> My bet is that it goes back to "Starship Troopers".

I'm fairly sure it doesn't, because in ST the navy didn't seem to 
provide fire support, just softening bombardments with nukes.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:06:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:06:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
References: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>


david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> 
> Dear Folks -
> 
> In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see
> <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file
> their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
> 
> Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and
> although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the
> end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned
> for a financial year until after you've earned it.
> 
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's
> timetable works??

Earnings are based on calendar year (1 Jan - 31 Dec).  We receive an
official statement from our employers ("W-2" form) of our earnings,
taxable earnings (not always the same) and taxes withheld no later than
31 Jan of the next year.  We then have until 15 April to file our tax
paperwork (Form 1040, in one of several variations) and pay any tax due.

For further information, check:

http://www.irs.gov

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <3CBD66E0.27266.792890@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 13:49, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
> of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
> something that will be directly proportional to it.

It's simple - the apparent size of the world is what matters. You see 
the jump drives get frightened if they see large opjects in the shy, 
and they don't work well under stress.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:14:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:14:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
References: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au> <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CBCBDFA.1AA77C4E@premier.net>

John Groth wrote:

<<snip>>
> 
> Earnings are based on calendar year (1 Jan - 31 Dec).  We receive an
> official statement from our employers ("W-2" form) of our earnings,
> taxable earnings (not always the same) and taxes withheld no later than
> 31 Jan of the next year.

Just to clarify:

Earnings are based on calendar year (01 Jan X0 - 31 Dec X0), and the W-2
form should be received no later than 31 Jan X1.

Why US income taxes are based on calendar years, while the Federal
government's fiscal years run from 01 Oct X0 - 30 Sep X1 (said year
being referred to as Fiscal Year X1) is beyond me.

Note also that different states may have income tax filing dates that
differ from that of the Federal government....

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:21:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:21:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi,

> There are "clusters". And it's *really* unlikely that any sizable body
> will have a density much above Mercury's. At least in a "normal"
> system. The planets that form around supernova remnants are likely to
> be very different.

Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

Besides, what's "normal" ? Our solar system could be the odd one out, for
all we know. Until we survey a few others, I'd say it was not a good idea to
make assumptions concerning the frequency of systems like ours. Consider the
size of our moon to the Earth, for example. If it hadn't have been for a
body the size of Mars hitting the just-born Earth, the Earth would have been
larger and the moon non-existent, with dramatic effects on evolution and
culture thereafter. The chances of that collision happening may have been
vanishingly small, making the Earth Moon system unique.

Finally, all non-jovian planets form from Supernova remnants. That's what
(a) manufactures the heavier elements in the first place, and (b) creates a
large cloud of particulate and gas that condenses to form a new star. The
presence of anything above the lighter elements in the solar system implies
that the Sun and its family owe their existence to the previous catastrophic
death of a long dead star.

If you are referring to oddities like pulsar planets here, then I'd agree
they would probably be denser if they formed from debris. But then, its more
likely that a pulsar has captured a body ejected from another system, as
supernovas tend to clear the area near the site of the explosion and drive
all the suitable accretion material well away from the pulsar itself. That
Hubble image of the 1987A (?, can't remember the designation now) supernova
remnant shows this in practice - a huge shockwave travelling at relativistic
velocities away from the pulsar corem driving superheated gas and
particulate with it.

> Ain't gonna happen. The abundance of materials in the cloud of dust and
> gas a system forms from means that anything with a substantial iron
> core will have a lot more rocky material overlying it.

Just because it's less likely doesn't mean it won't happen. A few years ago,
superjovians in the inner system were thought impossible, and then guess
what they found ?

Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
come up eventually.

> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.

Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

> I'm not going to quit indicating emphasis. And the alternatives are
> asterisks or underlines and the asterisks are much easier to hit.

Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
all.

> Yes, it's harder to read a sentence where you individually emphasize
> each word with them. But that's not what I'm doing.

No, but it made the point - the *'s draw your eyes to particular key words
and make the sentence harder to read.

> As for patronizing, I'm not responsible for what you read into what I
> write.

Hah ! Have you ever thought of a career in politics ? :-)

Seriously, if you decide to emphasize particular words, then you are
attempting to enforce those words and colour the interpretation of the
sentence, which is what emphasis is all about anyway. Take the sentence
above, "it's *really* unlikely" - there was no need to emphasize the word
"really" here at all. The wording was more than sufficient. All you achieved
was to add a dismissive/patronising tone, as if to say "it's so unlikely
that it's not even worth considering, so I am not going to".

> Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
> of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
> something that will be directly proportional to it.

Why does it have to vary with the inverse cube of the distance ? That
automatically makes the assumption that I argued against, which is "just
because the figures fit it must be right". I'd agree that the tidal figures
being identical for a given density across all world sizes seems convincing,
until you remember that densities are not going to be uniform at all. Then
the "figures matching" evidence breaks down (IIRC, Larger rocky/terrestrial
worlds are likely to have a higher density, as their proto-cores must have
been more massive during accretion to gain the additonal mass in the first
place - therefore as you go from UWP Size 1 to A, the density is likely to
increase, and the tidal force likewise).

Might it not make more sense to say that 100 diameters was a simplification
for the game, and an arbitrary value, rather than cook the Physics books to
justify it ? If you are going to make a "realistic-feel" limit for Jump
Drives, it would make more sense to define it in terms of the gravitational
field strength and forget the diameters thing entirely, except maybe as a
passing comment such as "for Earth this occurs at 100 planetary diameters".

Regards

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <B8E20E0C.3AB65%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/16/02 4:56 PM, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au at
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

> Dear Folks -
> 
> In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see
> <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file
> their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
> 
> Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and
> although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the
> end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned
> for a financial year until after you've earned it.
> 
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's
> timetable works??

Tax year runs January 1 through December 31, with filing not later than
April 15 the following year unless and extension is granted.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416183650.00b8f070@urbin.net>
References: <3CBC7D4F.7020102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CBD6995.16638.83BD87@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 18:37, Mark Urbin wrote:

> >How long did your party survive before the local residents rounded you up 
> >and hung you?
> 
> That's why he should have checked for witnesses first.

Yep. Witnesses are easier to deal with if you can shoot them before 
they know what's going on.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Damn mind rapers
Message-ID: <20020417003134.71770.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

My apoligise to the TML for that PBEM post, in future
must check address before posting. Agian my apoligies.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEDLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> >
> > Dear Folks -
> >
> > In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see
> > <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens
> have to file
> > their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
> >
> > Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and
> > although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the
> > end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned
> > for a financial year until after you've earned it.
> >
> > Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's
> > timetable works??
>
> Earnings are based on calendar year (1 Jan - 31 Dec).  We receive an
> official statement from our employers ("W-2" form) of our earnings,
> taxable earnings (not always the same) and taxes withheld no later than
> 31 Jan of the next year.  We then have until 15 April to file our tax
> paperwork (Form 1040, in one of several variations) and pay any tax due.
>
> For further information, check:
>
> http://www.irs.gov

Well, that sounds all nice and simple.

Over here in blighty, our tax year runs 5th April - 5th April, and the tax
calculations are arcane mysteries. A plethora of forms (P14, P35, P60, et
al) exist for the end of year.

And then, your accountant miscalculates and you end up 465.40 adrift
because he went to a calculator feeding frenzy and slipped on the keys. Such
is life.

ObTrav: What about tax returns in the Imperium ? In particular, what about
tax returns for expatriot traders and the like - do they pay tax where their
ship is registered, or pro rata per world they stay on, or what ?

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
Message-ID: <F195IuSRhAssGzeKkWG0000635c@hotmail.com>

>>And I'm rather suspicious of the masses David Weber gives for a lot of
>>the ships in the Honor Harrington stuff too.
>
>I'm rather suspicious of a lot of things in those books. As for the
>mass, I think he used a square when he should have used a cube law.
>
If the ships have any significant armour then he should have used both 
(square for armour and cube for more or less everything else) assuming he 
didn't set a fixed ratio between volume and armour mass. There should also 
be a constant term and some terms with fractional powers but they might be 
small enough to ignore. It's probably easier and more accurate to build the 
ships FFS/Vehicles style.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <20020416221005.288A827A31@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00c001c1e5aa$dad24960$50b18b90@computer>

> From: Derek Wildstar
> while a lot has been written about the various Traveller militaries, I
> don't think anyone has ever written a supplement about lawyers and
> lawsuits in the Imperium.  ;-)

Hmm....  No, I think you are right - we don't know much about lawyers in the
OTU.

We do, however, know that all accountants have cutlass skill, that all
philosophers wear black berets, and that it is not wise to assume that
everyone who wears a black beret is necessarily a philosopher.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <20020416154004.A42C527A0E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00bd01c1e5aa$d8c25520$50b18b90@computer>

From: James Ramsay
> Oh and a funny thing here in Australia, three of our sailors where
> arrested for damaging earth moving equipment! And these people are
> protecting our waters?

Well of course they damaged it!  They thought earth was just like water.

Or do you mean they were in _possession_ of damaging earth moving equipment?
I would have thought that was the point of the navy - damaging things and
moving earth around.

Maybe they were trying to use the earth moving equipment to protect our
waters by burying them?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com










From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <00bf01c1e5aa$da2a70a0$50b18b90@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon"
> So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the occupants of the
> other car without warning.  Then we went through their pockets for loose
> change.

Wow.  What an incredibly bad idea...  I don't think I've met a single ref
who would have let you get away with that. About the only way you could have
would be if the ref didn't want to have to waste time while you rolled up
new characters.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:56:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:56:30 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <00bc01c1e5aa$d823a420$50b18b90@computer>

From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> That's the sort of magical transformation that all those alchemists dreamt
> about! (Actually, they would have been happy with just a lump of gold, but
> you get my drift... ;-).

Strictly speaking, the goals of alchemy were religious/spiritual.  The
"turning lead to gold" thing was a metaphor.

Of course, there might have been some alchemists that didn't understand
that.  There certainly were a bunch of non-alchemists that didn't, and
handed over plenty of gold to alchemists for the latter to turn to lead for
them.

I've always found it interesting that people like Newton and Boyle were
alchemists.  After all, alchemists were basically wizards.  This raises some
wonderful possibilities.  The British government basically legalised a coven
of witches.  What deals were made to accomplish this?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:57:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:57:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170054.EFJ05650@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

A Los Alamos report

LA-3126-MS           
Pion-nucleon elastic scattering experiments with
high intensity meson beams

How do I get a copy?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:57:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:57:48 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416190104.2243227A2D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00be01c1e5aa$d9841e80$50b18b90@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon" 
> Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from 
> the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
> again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up 
> during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and 
> said, "Behold, Our God!".

Yeah, well, you can rack up another keyboard kill for this...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:59:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:59:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <20020416221005.288A827A31@mail.travellercentral.com> <00c001c1e5aa$dad24960$50b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3CBCC836.201FC590@premier.net>


Alan Bradley wrote:
> 
> > From: Derek Wildstar
> > while a lot has been written about the various Traveller militaries, I
> > don't think anyone has ever written a supplement about lawyers and
> > lawsuits in the Imperium.  ;-)
> 
> Hmm....  No, I think you are right - we don't know much about lawyers in the
> OTU.
> 
> We do, however, know that all accountants have cutlass skill, that all
> philosophers wear black berets, and that it is not wise to assume that
> everyone who wears a black beret is necessarily a philosopher.

I've also mentioned that AuricTech Shipyards (quasi-canon, as the firm
is described in _101 Corporations_) has a contingent of "suits": lawyers
in battledress. ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204170054.EFJ05650@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019005361.2749.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> A Los Alamos report
> 
> LA-3126-MS           
> Pion-nucleon elastic scattering experiments with
> high intensity meson beams
> 
> How do I get a copy?

Somehow, I suspect it would be either incomprehensible or horribly boring even
if you requested it.  In any case, these aren't traveller mesons, since they
seem to actually interact with matter, as opposed to mystically passing through
it without interaction ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LAMPF - a meson facility!
Message-ID: <200204170105.EFJ07268@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Evidently home to the world's most powerful proton 
accelerator (800 MeV).  There's an article about how they 
have to treat items that were in the "hot cell" which 
were "target processed".  These items are apparently 
radioactive after the beam hits them (whether the beam is a 
proton beam or neutron beam).

They can also produce a beam of high energy neutrons by 
striking a tantalum screen with the proton beam.

ObTrav:  After your ship is hit by a meson weapon, assuming 
you're still alive, is the ship a radioactive wreck?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020417011017.28326.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Or do you mean they were in _possession_ of damaging
earth moving equipment? I would have thought that was
the point of the navy - damaging things and moving
earth around.
END QUOTE

Now they damaged some earth moving equipment. However
it was civilian earth moving equipment! Ive said it
before and I will say it agin I am sooooo glad
Australia doesn't have nukes!

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #413 - 48 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020417010107.F3AC9279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020417010107.F3AC9279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <mripbu88p8l3cb85uuh4h4600e5ob0gkac@4ax.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 17:59:21 -0700, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
wrote:

>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:56:56 +1000
>Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>Dear Folks -

>In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see 
><http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file 
>their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).

>Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and 
>although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the 
>end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned 
>for a financial year until after you've earned it.

>Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
>timetable works??

Unless your company specifically indicates otherwise, fiscal years for IRS
purposes are 01/01 to 31/12.  Filing deadline is 15/4 for the prior tax
year.  You can apply for an extension until 15/8, but if you have a tax
liability (i.e., you need to pay rather than receiving a refund) you must
pay by 15/4.


--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net> <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020417114559.A29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Just curious, but what about storing H2 as hydrides?  Don't you get
> a higher density?

Not really.  Hydrides are a form of hydrogen storage with the
advantages of requiring little energy to extract and of being
relatively safe, cheap and reusable.  The best quoted hydride storage
I found on the Web had a hydrogen storage capacity of 95 kg/m^3 at
pressures near 1 atm (assuming bulk solid, which it wouldn't be).
That's better than liquid hydrogen, but lower than water.

Once you have hydrogen-driven fusion power, the energy cost to extract
hydrogen from water becomes pretty much irrelevant.  The expense of
even the cheapest metal hydride storage grossly exceeds that of water
tanks, as well as being a lot heavier.


- Tim




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018998784.5627.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1018998784.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020417114826.B29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
[ Jump fuel requirements ]
> Which is, based on the existence of drop tanks, equal to the total
> fuel requirement of jump.

Please, let's not start the drop-tank "Canon says this!  No, that's
contradicted by *that*" flamewar again.  I did very carefully specify
the requirements applied to My Traveller universe for a reason.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:49:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:49:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170147.EFL02200@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>In any case, these aren't traveller mesons, since=
 they
>seem to actually interact with matter, as opposed to =

>mystically passing through it without interaction ;)

There seems to =
be a major misconception about meson beams in =

Traveller. I still remember reading the original JTAS article.

A semi=
stable meson produced either in a neutral =

form with a mass 264 times that of an electron =

and a mean lifetime of 8.4 =D7 10^17 seconds =

or in a positively or negatively charged form =

with a mass 273 times that of an electron and a =

mean lifetime of 2.6 =D7 10^8 seconds. =

Also called pi meson.

The neutral pion decays in about 10^15 sec, =

usually into a pair of photons but occasionally =

into a positron-electron pair and a photon. Gamma ray photons.

The Tr=
aveller meson was described in an old JTAS
article.  It is a pi neutral=
 meson.  It has no
magical non-interaction properties - it is merely
v=
ery highly penetrating, as cosmic rays (which are
relativistic pi meson=
s) are.  The reason that cosmic =

rays don't make it to the ground is that they decay
before they get low=
er (the atmosphere does slow them
down).  A ship targeted by a relativi=
stic beam tuned
to precipitate the decay of all of its pions a short
d=
istance into the target is a meson gun.

There were experimental radia=
tion treatment machines
designed on this principle, to put radiation in=
to =

specific areas of a patient.

The LAMPF facility at Los Alamos is the =
most powerful
meson accelerator in the world, at 800 Mev.  It was
orig=
inally built in 1968, and has been upgraded over
time.

The Los Alamo=
s National Laboratory proposes =

to construct a scientifically broadly based =

facility using the existing Los Alamos Meson =

Physics Facility (LAMPF) accelerator as =

its injector. Both the Canadian and Los Alamos =

proposals have the capability of providing a =

hundredfold increase in the intensity of =

certain meson and hadron beams over those =

available today. That's 80 GeV.
________________
"Imposed armistices .=
 . . artificially =

freeze conflict and perpetuate a state =

of war indefinitely by shielding the =

weaker side from the consequences of =

refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.182943.8V3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Bruce Johnson asks
>>
>>How long did your party survive before the local residents 
>>rounded you  up and hung you?
>>
> That was the problem.  They had friends.  We got back to 
> town, and they heard about it.  Later that day, when we were 
> strolling into the front foyer of the guest house were were 
> staying at, three men stepped into the room and opened up on 
> us with submachineguns.  Of the six people in our party, one 
> survived.  The three attackers died, but the locals were 
> steamed enough to shoot the survivor after hearing his tale.

Congratulations on rediscovering the principle of the blood feud.

> It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
> principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
> friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
> received.

Also, never *ever* attack someone who has a family. Especially a tight
knit one.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:05:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:05:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <p0433010ab8e24dae9b06@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20416.190000.0p2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:45 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>>  At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>>>>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>>>>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>>>>todal forces are the same.
>>>
>>>  A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the
>>>  size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity
>>>  in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal
>>>  gradient.
>>
>>Actually, the tidal force varies *linearly* with the distance from the
>>center of mass of the body experiencing the tidal forces. Not *quite*
>>the same thing as varying with the size.
>
> The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also 
> true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to 
> another will depend on how far apart they are.

You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
forces). 

>>As a good example, consider some folks in spacesuits tethered to a
>>ship. The forces they experience depend on the distance and direction
>>from the ship, not on the size of the ship.
>
> True.  Though the difference in force between the guy in the space 
> suit different parts of the ship will depend on the size of the ship.

No. I'm talking about the tidal forces on the guy in the suit generated
by the fact that the ship he's attached to is in orbit about a planet.

The forces he experiences at 100 meters from the center of the ship are
ten times those he'd experience at 10 meters (in the same direction).
 
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:06:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:06:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417085805.D28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.190553.2F8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Stephen Tempest wrote:
>> Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?
>
> Of course :)
>
> It varies with which rules, time period, and dataset you use, but my
> figures are on the order of 100 PCr/year.  Never seen a 'P' prefix
> used before?  10^15, in case anyone was wondering ;)

Y	yotta	10^24
Z	zetta	10^21
E	exa	10^18
P	peta	10^15
T	tera	10^12
G	giga	10^9
M	mega	10^6
k	kilo	10^3
h	hecto	10^2
da	deka	10^1

The prefixes go all the way down to 10^-24 too, but those aren't likely
to come up in our discussions.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:07:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:07:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020417120609.C29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Brick wrote:
> If you are going to make a "realistic-feel" limit for Jump Drives,
> it would make more sense to define it in terms of the gravitational
> field strength and forget the diameters thing entirely, except maybe
> as a passing comment such as "for Earth this occurs at 100 planetary
> diameters".


That's exactly what I'm doing.  The tidal gradient *is* the
gravitational field.  Acceleration is coordinate-dependent, and not
intrinsic to gravity.

It so happens that it works out very similar in behaviour to a
diameter based rule, which is an added bonus.  On the other hand, the
fact that the two rules give very similar results may be considered a
problem -- certainly it seems to have caused a lot of confusion here!


- Tim



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
In-Reply-To: <3CBC9A4C.4000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416222702.02624008@192.168.0.1>

At 02:40 PM 4/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>William Lane wrote:
>
>>Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
>>everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
>>info.
>
>That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write XML 
>to Cobol and back...


Way cool!  Can I add this to my Traveller Maintenance Blues page?
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html>

This will great with your other great bit on the subject:
Captain to new crewmember:

"Well, the damn nic in the aft engineering workstation died a month ago, 
and since it's a 150 year old model, it's been hard to find parts...so we 
just do everything by hand...I know, I know, it's a pain, and someday we're 
gonna have to jump on less than 12 hours notice...I'll get _around_ to it, 
ok? Now go pound on the forward stab'rd ventilation controller, the damn 
relay's stuck closed again, and if that keeps upit's gonna be like an 
icebox in the passenger cabins again."


>oBTRav> Captain finds engineer hip deep in the Jump drive controller with 
>an exceptionally old-looking piece of hardware in his hands.
>
>Captain: "Good lord, Scottie! That's a jump *tape* reader! What is that 
>antique doing on my jump drive??"
>
>Engineer: "Well Captain, we cannae find the right components to rrepair 
>the drive controller. Urgvark" he points to a crazed looking Vargr 
>assistant engineer, "...found this in a antique shop. We're tying it into 
>the saircuit right now."
>
>C: "But how will we control it? I haven't seen a jump tape in my life that 
>wasn't in a museum!"
>
>E:"Well Captain, I have a writing head from a holocorder here, we can 
>connect it to the main computer, and have it translate the control 
>instructions from the astrogation program to the correct patterns that a 
>jump tape would have. It should work, in theory, sah. " Shouts "OK 
>Urgvark! Give me some power..."
>
><SNAP> <Pop fsssssshhhhhh> "Turn it off! Turn it off!"
>
>E: Through the smoke..."Ahh captain, we're going ta need some morrre time..."
>
>C: weeps.
>
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170239.TAA01546@ping.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Anthony Jackson says
>>In any case, these aren't traveller mesons, since they
>>seem to actually interact with matter, as opposed to 
>>mystically passing through it without interaction ;)
>
>There seems to be a major misconception about meson beams in 
>Traveller. I still remember reading the original JTAS article.

Nah.  Meson beams have a number of clearly non-physical properties, starting
with the magical 'timed delay'.

>A semistable meson produced either in a neutral 
>form with a mass 264 times that of an electron 
>and a mean lifetime of 8.4  10^17 seconds 
>or in a positively or negatively charged form 
>with a mass 273 times that of an electron and a 
>mean lifetime of 2.6  10^8 seconds. 
>Also called pi meson.

Well, assuming 'lifespan' is half-life, neutral pion is a bit off 
(6.63x10^-17s), charged pion is insanely off (3.76x10^-8), and both
interact via the strong force, giving them penetration not significantly
different from protons at the same energy levels.  Among common partiles,
the best penetrator would be the muon (sometimes called the mu meson,
though it's not a meson), as it's fairly massive (avoiding the effects
that bleed energy off electrons) and doesn't interact via the strong
force.  It also has as longer lifespan than any type of pion (3.17x10^-6).
A teravolt accelerator might have usable range in space combat.

>The Traveller meson was described in an old JTAS
>article.  It is a pi neutral meson.  It has no
>magical non-interaction properties - it is merely
>very highly penetrating, as cosmic rays (which are
>relativistic pi mesons) are.  The reason that cosmic 
>rays don't make it to the ground is that they decay
>before they get lower (the atmosphere does slow them
>down).  A ship targeted by a relativistic beam tuned
>to precipitate the decay of all of its pions a short
>distance into the target is a meson gun.

The decay process described above is clearly magical, since fundamental 
particles don't decay at a fixed time, they simply have a normal logarithmic
decay and will thus have the largest number of decays right in front of the
barrel.  It also requires utterly insane energy levels for neutral pions to
have any range (by the abbreviations given elsewhere, somewhere around 100
YEv).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20416.182943.8V3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204161937200.17414-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Congratulations on rediscovering the principle of the blood feud.
> 
> > It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
> > principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
> > friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
> > received.
> 
> Also, never *ever* attack someone who has a family. Especially a tight
> knit one.
> 
Don't attack people with seriously dysfunctional families, either.

In any given moment, at least 50% of my relatives aren't speaking to at
least one other relative.  That doesn't mean they wouldn't ALL get
together and kick your ass if you attacked one of us-- the principle as
far as I can tell is that we're the only people who are allowed to hurt
us.  I was very, very surprised when my brother, who is on crack half the
time and with whom I can rarely have a civil conversation due to his
racism, sexism and homophobia, decided he was going after my ex-husband,
and I was the only person on earth who was able to stop him.  And did,
because Vince isn't worth that kind of trouble and Tripp doesn't need
another strike toward the three.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170250.EFN02270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson
>
>Nah.  Meson beams have a number of clearly non-physical 
>properties, starting with the magical 'timed delay'.
>

There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes 
are for mesons that are *not* in motion.

Mesons that are moving at relativistic velocities last a 
*lot* longer.  Otherwise, cosmic rays would never pass down 
into our upper atmosphere.

The decay times listed are also from a Los Alamos website.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <3CBD64AF.31847.709971@localhost>
References: <3CBD64AF.31847.709971@localhost>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8e293c05231@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:03 PM +1200 4/17/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 16 Apr 2002 at 20:32, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>
>>  Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
>>  (of radiation effects on fertility)
>>  > Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in
>>  > men, if you prefer)?
>>
>>  Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
>>  the testis to ionising radiation.
>
>How penetrating is ionising radiation in general? If it's not very
>penetrating there should be some adjustment made to allow for the
>ovaries being protected by being inside, rather than outside the torso.

Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can 
easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the 
skin (or more than a meter or two of air).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.190000.0p2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.190000.0p2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8e294f89b54@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:00 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>  > The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also
>>  true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to
>>  another will depend on how far apart they are.
>
>You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
>depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
>ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
>forces).

I'm not sure what force you are talking about.  The force on any one 
part of the ship is the force of gravity.  Tidal forces are the 
relative difference in forces between different parts of an object.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Qiuck Query on US Tax Returns
Message-ID: <3CBCE57F.316C0F85@mail.cswnet.com>

Further clarifications to what John Groth wrote:

>Earnings are based on calendar year (01 Jan X0 - 31 Dec X0), and the >W-2 form should be received no later than 31 Jan X1.

There is a grace period for employers sending out W-2 forms. While the
forms themselves must go out 1/31, taxpayers who have not recieved them
cannot contact the IRS until 2/15.

April 15 is the tax deadline. Extensions to file the taxes are allowed,
but extensions for paying the taxes are not. Thus if you owe and take an
extension you still wind up paying penalties and interest.

>Note also that different states may have income tax filing dates that
>differ from that of the Federal government....

Examples: Arkansas and Louisiana, both file taxes 1 month after the
Federal return, on 5/15.

California requires its taxes on 4/15, but grants an automatic extension
for filing till 10/15. Again, this is for filing only, not for taxes
owed.

Also, some states [Wyoming, Florida, Nevada, Texas, Alaska, Washington,
South Dakota] do not have personal income tax. Two others, New Hampshire
and Tennessee don't really deal with personal tax unless your a richie
with lots of dividends and interest earnings. I imagine that in these
states they get the income via sales and property taxes. Texas, as an
example, has its infamous "Hospitality Tax", which is a sales tax on
hotels and motels.

Then there is that unique fun known to tax preparers as "the all-states
return." This is where the taxpayer has moved from one state to another,
and the tax preparer gets to pull his/her hair out trying to figure all
the tax consequences for the individual. And some states don't make it
easy. Check out Wisconsins Form 827, Legal Residence (Domicile)
Questionnaire. By the time you get done with it, you'll think you've
arrived in the Solomani Confederation.

This is a good place to start:
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

You can get to the IRS site here. It also gives you an overlook at US
states in the "State Tax Profiles" section.

Andy B writes:
>ObTrav: What about tax returns in the Imperium ? In particular, what >about tax returns for expatriot traders and the like - do they pay tax >where their ship is registered, or pro rata per world they stay on, or >what ?

When I first got on the TML, back on the old list, we had a big
discussion about taxes. Actually, I think it was the first question I
posted. IIRC, the general opinion was that the Imperuim itself doesn't
do personal income taxes. It gets its money from planetary transfers
[the 30% thing you see in Striker] and sales taxes [seen chiefly at
Starports, or in systems where the Imperuim controls liscencing for belt
mining]. Personal income taxes are a province of what ever planet you
are from. Be advised that whatever you pc is doing, he will, eventually
and inevitably, have to deal with taxes in one form or another. Take my
little piece of landgrab heaven, Arba/Lunion 1721. Zero government, Zero
lawlevel. The perfect tax shelter, right? Just don't go to the Starport,
cause the SPA needs ALOT of money to run it and you WILL pay thru the
nose going through there. So you go out to the asteroid belt to mine ice
so you don't have to go to the port, right? So sorry, but the Imperuim
requires you to have a prospectors liscence [to help defray the cost of
maintaining a small patrol running through the system]. And so on and so
forth. 

God, I just spent all day yesterday working on other peoples taxes. I
found the whole experience ....

[WAIT FOR IT]




I found the whole experience TAXING.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"Let me tell you how it will be. There's one for you, nineteen for me.
Cause I'm the Tax Man, oh yeah I'm the Tax Man."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:07:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:07:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20416.191041.8G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
>
>>>Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =3D20
>>
>>Shouldnt the hull code be Z? I though Y was for 1,000,000 to=20
>>1,999,999. Z was for anything above that.=20
>
> Y is for 1,000,000 to "the next stated level" - but there isn't one,
> so I'm assuming it's just "over a million tons".  Z is "Reserved".
>
>>>MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
>>Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
>>Architects fees? Anyone?
>
> Standard cost.  If you *really* want to start mass-producing these
> things, you scare me ;-)
>
> I didn't include the architect's fees, but they'd be TCr 376,770.  The
> kind of contract every naval architect dreams of.

Check out Fritz Leiber's novel "The Wanderer" for planet ships.
Including things like PAW mounts with tunnels thousands of miles long. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:08:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:08:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417082001.B28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.192354.1u3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
>> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
> Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
> a nitpick.

I was going by the figures in the post I was responding to, which had a
higher density listed for Mercury.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204170250.EFN02270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204170250.EFN02270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes are for
> mesons that are *not* in motion.

They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half of the
original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has elapsed, 1/4 decay in
the next half-life period, 1/8 in the half-life after that, etc.

In a universe in which electronic precognition is common, you might be
able to look into the future and tell which are going to decay when.
Then you can preferentially accelerate the short-lived ones.  Oh,
you'll need accelerators capable of delivering a few megajoules *per
particle* as well, controllable to within 1 part per trillion, and
reliable precognition to the same accuracy.

Short of that, you'll get a beam of decaying mesons all along your
firing path, with the greatest concentration of decays *inside* your
weapon.


Getting a real meson to decay "on schedule" at a distance of hundreds
of thousands of kilometres is indeed magic of a very high order
according to current physics.  I'm not doubting that they exist in the
Traveller universe, just that their behaviour is radically different
from the way *real* mesons behave.

I'm a fan of the "Dr Meson" theory.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170327.UAA04325@ping.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Anthony Jackson
>>
>>Nah.  Meson beams have a number of clearly non-physical 
>>properties, starting with the magical 'timed delay'.
>>
>
>There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes 
>are for mesons that are *not* in motion.

You missed the point.  The point is that particles don't have 'lifespans'
(that can be extended with relativistic effects).  The have half-lives
(that can also be extended with relativistic effects) but the effect of
a half-life is that decays happen along the entire length of the beam,
with the largest number occuring right in front of the barrel.
>
>Mesons that are moving at relativistic velocities last a 
>*lot* longer.  Otherwise, cosmic rays would never pass down 
>into our upper atmosphere.

Well, cosmic rays are mostly regular nuclei initially; by and large everything
but the muons does decay before reaching the ground.

> The decay times listed are also from a Los Alamos website.

Hm..odd, I got mine off an LBL website.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018991242.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com> <ML-2.3.1018991242.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <i1qpbu0h52l19nh3hil3ubpm159pg14q71@4ax.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:07:22 -0700 (PDT), Anthony Jackson
<ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>I seem to recall something about X-ray lasers being developed, but =
they're not
>exactly weapons-grade.  The old SDI people talked about bomb-pumped =
X-ray
>lasers, a mechanism which AFAIK has never been successfully =
demonstrated, not
>that this prevent people from using it in SF.

I believe that bomb-pumped X-ray lasers were among the last things
examined with the underground nuclear tests.  If I recall, at they
showed some disappointing results in regard to focusing.

Since that time, there have no doubt been refinements to the design to
address the problem, but of course they haven't been tested.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:07:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:07:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com> <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 13:58:32 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
><SNIP>
>>
>> It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In another
>> of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional and
>> compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive me if
>> I am interpreting you incorrectly).  I believe you are in error in
>> this regard.  As per the above, the compressional forces are due to
>> the object's self-gravity and only the tensional forces are due to the
>> influence of another body and therefore are tidal forces.
>
>No. Tidal forces are *away* from the center of the satellite along the
>line joining it to the primary (ie the side closest to the primary is
>pulled towards the primary, and the side opposite the primary is pulled
>*away* from the primary.=20
>
>But the forces in the plane perpendicular to that line are *towards*
>the center of the satellite.=20
>
>so if you were orbiting close to a neutron star in a space suit, your
>feet would be pulled towards the star, your head would be pulled away
>from it and your waist would be getting squeezed.=20

Thank you for the clarification.  I'll admit that I'd forgotten the
"pinching" effect taking place in the plane perpendicular to the axis
passing through the primary and the satellite (though I had a clear
image of a fluid satellite doing exactly this in my mind [THUD]}.

However, I want to point you back to the original point of discussion
and the problem I was having with Tim Little's assertion that Jump
Drives are inherently at 0 diameters of the jumping ship itself.  This
may be true if one views the various limits as being imposed by
gravity, but, in a past discussion, it was elegantly pointed out that
tidal force more closely conforms to the 100 or 10 diameter limit for
the various planetary types than does gravity.

My point was that I believe that a body does not exert tidal force
upon itself.  Rather, those forces only appear in relation to two
separate bodies.  Therefore, a ship, otherwise outside the 100
diameter limit of other system bodies (and the tidal forces upon it
from those bodies is therefore negligible), does not exert a tide upon
itself or, to give Tim his due, that those forces are compressional
and are subsumed in the body's own gravitation.  Therefore, the Jump
drive is not working in a 0 diameter condition.

=46ailing this, I'll have to throw in with the earlier hand wave that
the jump grid defines a boundary within which the tidal force (or
gravitation) can be ignored.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:45:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:45:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416222132.009fa690@mail.attbi.com>

	I appreciate the comments of everyone who has replied to my initial 
post.  I gather that sandcasters would work best
against optical wavelengths and might require a lot of sand, but are not 
entirely infeasible.  Particle beams and X-ray lasers appear to be another 
kettle of fish entirely.  Years ago, before the internet, before I knew 
anyone besides myself might be interested in space combat, I checked out a 
copy of The Effects of Nuclear Weapons.  In it I found some interesting 
tables on the 1/2 value thickness of various material versus various forms 
of radiaton.  The 1/2 value thickness for X-rays was approximately 20 grams 
per square cm for heavy metals.  But that was for a solid plate of 
iron.  If the beam had to pass through a long distance (a few hundred 
meters) would that make any difference?  I am wondering if a long 
scattering distance would reduce the required density.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS TML Skills
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C179DB@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>


Sebastian:
If you have a Skill at Level 0 (e.g. Grav Vehicle-0), and this Skill 'serves
as' another Skill at Level minus 1 (Grav Vehicle serves as Grav Belt -1), at
which Level do I execute the 'served' Skill (Grav Belt)?
at : Level -1 (-> giving a negative DM of 1)?
at : Level 0 (-> minimum Skill-Level is allways 0)?
or not at all (-> there are no 'served' Skills for Level-0-Skills)?


I would go with the first one (giving a negative DM of -1). The other thing
is of course when you have both skills. For example Pilot serves as Ship's
Boat-1. So if you have Ship's Boat-2 and Pilot-3, does your Ship's Boat
become 4 (Pilot-3 minus 1 plus Ship's Boat-2), or is your DM still just 2
and you've wasted two skill levels. 

I love Megatraveller, but like all RPGers I changed it to taste. So for my
system, which has a combo of MT & T4 skills, plus some of my own, any skill
that is related gives a Synergy bonus. For example, I consider Computers and
Robotics linked skills. If you have a Skill level of 2-3 you can add a DM of
1 to a linked skill, and if Skill level 4+ add 2. If you have more than one
linked skill then you only add the highest bonus. 

I have found it works very well. I am more than happy to email to you if
you're interested, along with the reworked task & generation rules. 

Mikey

PS I rolled Ships Boat into Pilot. I thought it was stoopid to have them
separate. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>
References: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com> <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020417150233.E29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> in a past discussion, it was elegantly pointed out that tidal force
> more closely conforms to the 100 or 10 diameter limit for the
> various planetary types than does gravity.

At the risk of repeating myself: tidal gradient *is* the gravitational
field.  The gravitational field *is* the tidal gradient.  This is
particularly true in General Relativity, where gravitational
"acceleration" has no real existence, and the tidal gradient
corresponds precisely to the spacetime curvature.  This curvature (the
gravitational field) exists inside solid objects as well as outside.


> Failing this, I'll have to throw in with the earlier hand wave that
> the jump grid defines a boundary within which the tidal force (or
> gravitation) can be ignored.

That's what I use.  Works for me.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:16:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:16:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204162126.g3GLQsn00991@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20416.215652.8Q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
>> network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
>> just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.
>> 
>> In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
>> a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
>> wormholes have to share a reference frame.
>
> I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim

The existence of a preferred frame, means that laws of physics work
differently in *that* frame than in other frames. Which violates the
hell out of relativity and has other consequences as well. 

But if your drive only works in *that* reference frame or is otherwise
"tied" to it, you don't have to woory about time travel and other problems.

You *do* have to worry about explaining how it is that it just so
happens that this section of the milky way is moving at the right speed
in the right direction for FTL to be "easy" when it's very hard for the
rest of the universe.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:16:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:16:59 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <p04330109b8e24d6388f8@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20416.215513.5m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:28 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in
>>  > near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near
>>>  misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a
>>>  single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?
>>
>>We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
>>outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.
>
> We are looking.  There is a program underway to catalog Earth 
> crossing asteroids....

Yes, but they are looking for the *big* ones, not the measly little
hundred meter jobs. Detecting those would be nice, but if one hit it
wouldn't be much worse than a big nuke.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Added search to archives
Message-ID: <B8E2563E.3AD20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

I just integrated the htdig search engine into the tml archives.  Give it a
spin.

Now we just need to convert old tml archives into mailbox format and we'll
have all the archives back to 1994 online and searchable.

I'm looking for volunteers.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
Message-ID: <200204170555.WAA10726@ping.iii.com>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:

>In mail you write:
>
>>> Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
>>> network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
>>> just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.
>>> 
>>> In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
>>> a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
>>> wormholes have to share a reference frame.
>>
>> I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim
>
>The existence of a preferred frame, means that laws of physics work
>differently in *that* frame than in other frames. Which violates the
>hell out of relativity and has other consequences as well. 

Well, it means that FTL works differently in that reference frame than
others; specifically, that reference frame is one in which all FTL transits
appear to take positive time.  It does mean that using FTL, the 
michealson-morley experiment will actually work and return an absolute
velocity relative to this reference frame.
>
>But if your drive only works in *that* reference frame or is otherwise
>"tied" to it, you don't have to woory about time travel and other problems.
>
>You *do* have to worry about explaining how it is that it just so
>happens that this section of the milky way is moving at the right speed
>in the right direction for FTL to be "easy" when it's very hard for the
>rest of the universe.

Note, however, that if you _create_ a wormhole network, the act of doing so
defines a preferred frame of reference.  As long as you don't/can't create
a second network (with a different reference frame), explaining this isn't
a problem (explaining the inability to create more than one network may
require some handwaving).

And the 'priveleged reference frame' doesn't have to be the same as the
speed of the milky way.  It means that some FTL trips will seem to take
negative time, but since the round trip time remains constant, no actual
causality violation can occur.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F101Yg83alUohIi6YEF00006b18@hotmail.com>

I'm cross posting this to the list and sending it directly to Bruce 
MacIntosh as well.

>Mr. Holmstrm,
>
>I'm a member of the TML and I recently ran across an old email you sent out 
>proposing rules for the building of chem-det lasers using Bruce Macintosh's 
>"MCS" starship combat rules.
>
>If you're still playing Traveller and it isn't an imposition on you, could 
>you tell me if you ever finished a final draft of your rules?

Ohh, I'm still playing Traveller/reading the TML. The short answer to your 
question is "sort of yes" but the long answer is more interesting. I tried 
to pick apart the NukeDet tables in FFS and the warhead table in MCS and 
reverse engineer the Frag and ChemDet warheads using MCS and FFS. The major 
problems are that the ChemDet and Frag warheads mentioned in MCS might be 
handwaved and lacks stats (mass/vol/price). More details on NukeDets in 
FFS1/2 would also help. The discussion below assumes that the reader knows 
FFS and MCS. If I'm unclear somewhere just yell.

Most of my argument uses this table from MCS:
>Type                    Pen:Damage     Defence Nuclear Det-Laser            
>                                            TL15    19:13           -7
>                TL13    18:12           -7
>                TL10    17:11           -7
>Chemical Det-Laser-13   13:10           -6
>Fragmentation KKMSIM-10 10:14           -3

If the ChemDets are supposed to have a PEN calue of 13 this means that it 
must have a FFS2 DV of at least 21 (assuming PEN = 10*DAM => MCS DAM 7). 
This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking about a 
X-ray laser to it needs to be at least TL13. MCS states that NukeDets has a 
penetration value of 20 times the FFS2 damage value (instead of the usual 
PEN = 10xDAM). Further it states that the warhead (as a whole) has twice the 
damage compared to the listed damage (per beam) in FFS2. This can be used to 
determine the yield of the NukeDets used in the MCS missile table. Note that 
all the warheads mass around 500 kg.

TL     Yield    Damage  Wt       Vol
10     100 kt    80     540 kg   270 l
13     200 kt    94     500 kg   250 l
15     500 kt   113     500 kg   250 l

From the PD modifiers in MCS I drew the conclusion that ChemDets detonate 
closer to their target than DetNukes and that Frags detonates even closer. 
At shorter distances the missile will be easier to hit but this works both 
ways. Every -1 on defence makes the missile twice as hard to hit (based on 
PD RoF modifiers).

Warhead      Eff.
NukeDet       1
ChemDet       2
Frag         16

To bring the damage of the ChemDet warhead up to DAM 10 we need to hit the 
target 3 times (compared with 2 for NukeDets)using 40Mj laser pulses. Since 
the ChemDet detonates at a more efficient distance we only have to use 67% 
as many lasing rods as on a NukeDet.

Here is where we run out of information. How many lasing rods are there in a 
NukeDet? Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow 
up) or something more powerful (that does)? Can a lasing rod (as used in 
NukeDets) also be used with chemicals? What is the cost/weight/volume of the 
lasing rod and tracking telescope?


There are two ways to handle this.

1. Assume that all warheads in the MCS missile list are 500 kg/250 l. The 
cost of the ChemDet warhead is anybody's guess but say 100 kCr. The ChemDet 
with PEN13 and DAM10 will represent the baseline warhead and can be modified 
as follows.

Modify weight and volume based on Tech Level.

TL  Wt and Vol mod
13   1.00
16   0.67

By changing the power and number of the lasing rods different warheads can 
be constructed. Change the PEN and DAM values and then apply the weight, 
volume and price modifiers. Each extra point can be added to either DAM or 
PEN but not to both.  Points can also be transferred (e.g. PEN+1/DAM-1) at 
no cost.

Bonus*   Wt, Vol and Price mod
+1          1.5  (1.46)
+2          2.0  (2.15)
+3          3.0  (3.16)
+4          4.5  (4.65)
+5          7.0  (6.81)
+6         10.0  (10.0)
For negative modifiers divide instead.

Examples

A TL11 ChemDet warhead (-2).
Pen = 13 - 1 = 12.
Dam = 10 - 1 = 9.
Wt = 500 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 500 kg.
Vol = 250 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 250 l.
Price = 100 / 2.0 = 50 kCr.

A TL13 Heavy ChemDet Warhead (+3).
Pen = 13 + 2 = 15.
Dam = 10 + 1 = 11.
Wt = 500 * 3.0 = 1500 kg.
Vol = 500 * 3.0 = 750 l.
Price = 100 * 3.0 = 300 kCr.


A +3 ChemDet warhead and a ring of imperial intervention is all a traveller 
needs. ;) The modifiers are based on the 6*log10 damage scale of MCS and the 
Chemical Lasing Cartridge efficiency table. I believe this gives reasonable 
numbers but one might want to differentiate the TL table a bit.


2. Running the numbers of a 500 kg warhead using standard components.

A 40Mj 10 cm X-ray focal array with 10'000 km effective range at TL13.
Focal area  : 0.007854 m2.
Focal vol   : 0.000314 m3.
Focal mass  : 0.314 kg.
Focal price : 31.4 Cr.

Input energy  : 61.54 Mj.
Cartridge wt  : 30.77 kg.
Cartridge vol : 3.127 l.
I can't find the listed price for CLC cartridges in FFS2 so I use FFS1 
figures instead.
Cartridge price : 1850 Cr.

The weight limitation allows 16 cartridges to be fitted.
Warhead Wt    : 497.3 kg.
Warhead Vol   : 55.06 l.
Warhead Price : 30 kCr.

The result a very cheap and compact warhead but I doubt that 16 cartridges 
are enough since a NukeDet probably has more than 24 lasing rods. Building 
the thing with TL15 will allow for 21 cartridges and TL16 gets us 35 (mainly 
due to better cartridges). To be completely legal the warhead would need a 
beampointer which adds ~1000 kg at TL13. With a beampointer it is hard to 
see how any of the beams could miss at all.

Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a lot. 
TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge? Double this?


Ideas/Comments are welcomed.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20417.015401.9f1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> However, I want to point you back to the original point of discussion
> and the problem I was having with Tim Little's assertion that Jump
> Drives are inherently at 0 diameters of the jumping ship itself.  This
> may be true if one views the various limits as being imposed by
> gravity, but, in a past discussion, it was elegantly pointed out that
> tidal force more closely conforms to the 100 or 10 diameter limit for
> the various planetary types than does gravity.
>
> My point was that I believe that a body does not exert tidal force
> upon itself.  Rather, those forces only appear in relation to two
> separate bodies.  Therefore, a ship, otherwise outside the 100
> diameter limit of other system bodies (and the tidal forces upon it
> from those bodies is therefore negligible), does not exert a tide upon
> itself or, to give Tim his due, that those forces are compressional
> and are subsumed in the body's own gravitation.  Therefore, the Jump
> drive is not working in a 0 diameter condition.

Alas, any ship has to be treated as a collection of particles. And each
of those particles *does* exert forces on the others. And some could be
described as tidal forces. 

In any case the field will vary in weird and wonderful ways. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:42:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:42:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20417.015559.9o2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hi,
>
>> There are "clusters". And it's *really* unlikely that any sizable body
>> will have a density much above Mercury's. At least in a "normal"
>> system. The planets that form around supernova remnants are likely to
>> be very different.
>
> Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

Yes, but it's above by less than .2 g/cm^3. Im' talking about the
likelihood of planet's with densitys 1, 2 or more g/cm^3 above earth's.

Also, the post I was replying to had the wrong density for Mercury, and
had it being denser than earth. I didn't check my references until
someone pointed out the error.

> Besides, what's "normal" ? Our solar system could be the odd one out, for
> all we know. Until we survey a few others, I'd say it was not a good idea to
> make assumptions concerning the frequency of systems like ours. Consider the
> size of our moon to the Earth, for example. If it hadn't have been for a
> body the size of Mars hitting the just-born Earth, the Earth would have been
> larger and the moon non-existent, with dramatic effects on evolution and
> culture thereafter. The chances of that collision happening may have been
> vanishingly small, making the Earth Moon system unique.

The sort of normalcy I'm talking about is based soely on elemental
abundances and the way a cloud of dust and gas collapses to form
planets. Which none of the recent discoveries have modified in a way
that affects the density of inner planets that aren't gas giants. 

You wind up with only three types of material to build planets from.
Ices, "stony" materials and nickel-iron and the few elements that like
to accumulate along with it in "melts". 

Once a body gets big enough, radioative decay (far more important
several billion years back and likely equally important in any
forming solar system due to supernovas helping "push" things together)
will cause first the "ices" to melt, which lets the grains of other
materials sink to the center. 

This gives a layer of ice over a layer of liquid over a loosely packed
core of stony material. Eventually as the radioactives decay it'll
freeze. 

If it's big enough, the stony part will melt and form various minerals.
And the stuff not soluble in alumina and silica will settle to the
center giving a nickel iron core.

Once enough planetismals come together, they start sweeping up any
others that get close. As well as remaining gas and dust. Big enough
collections become gas giants, brown dwarfs or even stars. 

Once a star lights up, it drives out the gas and dust from the inner
system, causing it to get collected by the larger of the planets
farther out. Which grow even bigger. 

It also tends to bake out the "ices" on inner system bodies unless they
are already small gas giants. This gets distributed to the outer system
as well. 

And depending on factors we aren't sure of, gas giants may slowly
spiral inward in many systems until the gas and dust that are slowing
them are gone. In the process they tend to absorb any planets that
formed in orbits inside of their original orbits (though they may also
eject some from the system).

In any case, the only way to *get* a nickel iron core is to be a body
larger enough to melt from internal heat, large enough to have a enough
nickel and iron, and small enough to not turn into a gas giant.

Such bodies will, due to simple elemental abundances, have *much* more
stony material than nickel-iron.

If they are small enough, and there are enough of them to form a "belt"
you'll get colisions fragmenting the surface and you could get an
exposed iron core. But that takes a pretty small body. 

Anything that's even a size 1 planet is way too big for that. 

So only systems with *really* skewed elemental abundances will have
worlds with densities much higher than Earth's. Or other *really* weird
situations. The pulsatr planets, rocky planets that are insanely close
to their primary (work out what would be left of Earth after a few
billion years at 0.1 AU from the sun, for example). etc.

> Finally, all non-jovian planets form from Supernova remnants. That's what
> (a) manufactures the heavier elements in the first place, and (b) creates a
> large cloud of particulate and gas that condenses to form a new star. The
> presence of anything above the lighter elements in the solar system implies
> that the Sun and its family owe their existence to the previous catastrophic
> death of a long dead star.
>
> If you are referring to oddities like pulsar planets here, then I'd agree
> they would probably be denser if they formed from debris. But then, its more
> likely that a pulsar has captured a body ejected from another system, as
> supernovas tend to clear the area near the site of the explosion and drive
> all the suitable accretion material well away from the pulsar itself. That
> Hubble image of the 1987A (?, can't remember the designation now) supernova
> remnant shows this in practice - a huge shockwave travelling at relativistic
> velocities away from the pulsar corem driving superheated gas and
> particulate with it.

Except that they are likely to have some sort of accretion disks of
matter that *didn't* reach escape velocity. That's apt to be
preferentially enriched with denser materials.

>> Ain't gonna happen. The abundance of materials in the cloud of dust and
>> gas a system forms from means that anything with a substantial iron
>> core will have a lot more rocky material overlying it.
>
> Just because it's less likely doesn't mean it won't happen. A few years ago,
> superjovians in the inner system were thought impossible, and then guess
> what they found ?

But that just showed that orbits weren't as stable as we thought, and
that large bodies might form close to where the star did. 

They are still gas giants in most respects.

> Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
> that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
> An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
> perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
> planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
> come up eventually.

Thing is, if it wasn't rare, we'd see more variation in densities of
objects in this system. Only bodies that get that dense are asteroid
fragments. 

The problem is managing to collect all that iron and then get *rid* of
all the *rock* that had to accumulate with it.

Rules of thumb are expected to work *most* of the time. and that's all
the 100 diameter limit is.

>> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
>> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
> Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
> in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
> superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

If they get big enough, that can't happen. so either they formed
farther out and moved in, or they were running a close second to the
body that became the star. 

>> I'm not going to quit indicating emphasis. And the alternatives are
>> asterisks or underlines and the asterisks are much easier to hit.
>
> Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
> message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
> need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
> all.

Sorry, but emphasis can change the meaning of a sentence. And convey
extra meaning. 

>> Yes, it's harder to read a sentence where you individually emphasize
>> each word with them. But that's not what I'm doing.
>
> No, but it made the point - the *'s draw your eyes to particular key words
> and make the sentence harder to read.

Harder for *you*, maybe. You are the only person I've ever heard make
such an argument. And I'm far from the only person who uses them. 

Also, they don't draw my eyes to such words. They modify the emphasis
as I reach the word. They don't "pull" my eyes on ahead.

By your argument, I shouldn't use emphasis in speaking either. And
that's just plain silly.

>> As for patronizing, I'm not responsible for what you read into what I
>> write.
>
> Hah ! Have you ever thought of a career in politics ? :-)
>
> Seriously, if you decide to emphasize particular words, then you are
> attempting to enforce those words and colour the interpretation of the
> sentence, which is what emphasis is all about anyway. Take the sentence
> above, "it's *really* unlikely" - there was no need to emphasize the word
> "really" here at all. The wording was more than sufficient. All you achieved
> was to add a dismissive/patronising tone, as if to say "it's so unlikely
> that it's not even worth considering, so I am not going to".

I emphasized it because if I was speaking I'd stress that word. That's
not being patronizing, that's saying that I consider it very, very
unlikely. Without resorting to overly awkward phrasing. 

>> Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
>> of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
>> something that will be directly proportional to it.
>
> Why does it have to vary with the inverse cube of the distance ? That
> automatically makes the assumption that I argued against, which is "just
> because the figures fit it must be right".

Work it out for yourself. Any "force" that is the same at X diameters
(where X <>1) from bodies of different sizes *does* vary by the cube of
the distance.  That's the way the geometry works. See below.

> I'd agree that the tidal figures
> being identical for a given density across all world sizes seems convincing,
> until you remember that densities are not going to be uniform at all. Then
> the "figures matching" evidence breaks down (IIRC, Larger rocky/terrestrial
> worlds are likely to have a higher density, as their proto-cores must have
> been more massive during accretion to gain the additonal mass in the first
> place - therefore as you go from UWP Size 1 to A, the density is likely to
> increase, and the tidal force likewise).

Except that back when the 100 diameter ruke was set forth, all the
rules for calculating things about planets explicitly stated that you
were to assume that they had the same density.

Check out the reprints of the first three books.

> Might it not make more sense to say that 100 diameters was a simplification
> for the game, and an arbitrary value, rather than cook the Physics books to
> justify it ? If you are going to make a "realistic-feel" limit for Jump
> Drives, it would make more sense to define it in terms of the gravitational
> field strength and forget the diameters thing entirely, except maybe as a
> passing comment such as "for Earth this occurs at 100 planetary diameters".

Work out the field strength at 100 diameters for size 1 thru 10 planets
assuming densities similar to that of earth or even Mars. The figures
are *way* off. 

Since field strength varies by inverse *square*, but mass varies as the
*cube* of the diameter, you get huge differences. 

Call the mass of a size 1 world 1. And the field strength at 100
diameters 1. 

A size 10 world has 1000 times the mass (volune is proprotional to the
cube of the size). It's 10 times bigger, which makes 100 diameters, 10
times as big as with the size one world. So we have 1000 times the mass
but only 10 times the distance. With an inverse square law, that means
the force would be 1000/(10^2) stronger.

X = KM/R^2

So the field strength at 100 diameters from a size 10 world is ten
times that of the strength at 100 diameters from a size 1 world of the
same density.

To get density differences to make up the differences, the *larger*
world would have to be 1/10th as dense as the *smaller* world. And that
ain't gonna happen.

If the force varies by the inverse *cube*, then you've got 1000 times
the mas at 10 times the distance, but instead of X=KM/R^2, you've got
X=KM/R^3. 

So you've got 1000/(10^3) = 1

*That* is why it has to depend on the inverse cube. 

I worked out the fact that inverse cube was needed *before* I knew that
tidal forces followed an inverse cube law.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:43:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:43:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b8e294f89b54@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20417.014254.3E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 7:00 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>  > The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also
>>>  true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to
>>>  another will depend on how far apart they are.
>>
>>You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
>>depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
>>ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
>>forces).
>
> I'm not sure what force you are talking about.  The force on any one 
> part of the ship is the force of gravity.  Tidal forces are the 
> relative difference in forces between different parts of an object.

The "tidal forces" are due to a combination of gravity *and* motion. 

Remember, the ship is assumed to be in "free fall" (ie freely
responding to gravity in some sort of orbit) when you figure the tidal
acceleration due to the body the ship is orbiting (Note: I'm using
"orbit" loosely, to include things like parabolic and hyperbolic
trajectories) 

The "tidal forces" are due to differences in the strength of the
primary's field and due to the motion of the ship in it's orbit.

The magnitude of the forces depends not on the size of the *orbiting*
body, but on the distance from the center of mass of that body, and
what direction you are from the center relative to the line connecting
primary and satellite.

So, at a given distance from earth, the tidal forces at the center of
mass of a ship due to Earth will be *zero*. At they will increase as
you move away from that point. The direction and magnitude of the
forces depends on the distance from that center and upon the direction
relative to the line joining that point to the center of the Earth.

Anything "attached" to the ship is subject to those forces. 

The forces will be the same at 100 meters in a given direction from the
center of the ship whether the ship is a tiny scout with a pole
sticking out in that direction or or 1 km long ship with that point
being inside the ship.

Secondary effects due to the mass distribution of the ship will modify
those forces. But it's not the "size" of the ship per se that
determines the strength or direction of the forces.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:43:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:43:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCECFCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
> How penetrating is ionising radiation in general?

Alpha particles will be stopped by skin (will travel 5-7cm in air).
Ingested alpha emitters are problematic, though.

Beta particles travel 2-8m in air. They might actually traverse
the abdominal or chest wall, if you're really thin.

Gamma rays have a half thickness (50% attenuation) of 12cm of water.
Fast neutrons (energy of more than 500keV) have greater
penetration than gammas.

The fudge factor I suggested accounts for the increased radiosensitivity of
the ovary.

Their location is irrelevant as the most likely radiation types encountered
will be gamma radiation, neutrons and cosmic rays.

David Summers wrote :-
> I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the
> fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
Damn shame, that <g>.


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:45:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:45:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F169fBi0SHfgcSoVW04000117c4@hotmail.com>

Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to 
enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?

This concept is pretty palatable in the US, because there has to be 
jurisdiction for a court to hear a case and due process is constitutionally 
guaranteed.  But is that necessarily the case in the Imperium?

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:45:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:45:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8e293c05231@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204170923130.29728-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, David P. Summers wrote:
> Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can 
> easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the 
> skin (or more than a meter or two of air).

Hm, don't alpha particles have even less range than beta? I remember
something like centimeter scale ranges in air.

Of course, they won't penetrate the skin. Still, if you get them into your
body, they are mighty dangerous: the heavier the particle, the greater the
damage. (Alpha particles are helium nuclei, that is, two protons and two
neutrons, and about 8000 times more massive than electrons which make up
beta radiation.)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:19:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:19:24 2002
Subject: [TML] The L-E Digest?
Message-ID: <F82qi8VjUwZcSlVviFl0000bd6b@hotmail.com>

In mail, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) asked:

>Nah, if everyone who goofed did that who'd be posting? :-)

<tongue-in-cheek>
Um, just you?
</tongue-in-cheek>

Jeff.
"Who ordered the Meat Feast with extra Bantha?" - Pizza the Hutt.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:21:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:21:06 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.220459.6d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Check out how much space *8* tons (mass) of liquid oxygen takes up.
>
> I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?
>
> When I scoop ice from an iceball, I get lots of hydrogen in the form
> of water.  Water is a more compact way to store hydrogen than LH2.  So
> I *keep* the water.  I run the ammonia, methane, or some more water
> through the fuel processor to fill up the smaller LH2 tanks (possibly
> extracting some nitrogen for life support), throw away all the
> methane, and either keep or throw away the ammonia.

You want it because you were making such a fuss about not being able to
use oxygen to convert methane to water and CO2 because you'd lose the
oxygen if you threw away the CO2.

Also, what version of Traveller are you running? Most version have jump
fuel being the majority of the tankage?

>> And you'll have to have to have *seperate* tanks for the 9 tons of
>> water, the 8 tons of LOX, and the 1 ton of LH2.
>
> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
> over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
> LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
> unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
> paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.

Only if the *mass* of the ship doesn't matter in your TU. Because you
are using 9 times the *mass* even if the tank is smaller. Which will
have a major impact on performance.

> The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
> volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
> water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
> upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.

Only at the cost of *not* being able to refuel by scopping at a gas
giant. The atmosphere is 90%+ hydrogen. So unless you carry along all
that extra oxygen (LOX is the easiest way to do so) you can't use
it. Not unless you can store it as LH2. Which you can't do in the water
tanks.

>> Oh yeah, actually, the odds are you'd seperate the methane *first*,
>> simply because it will be the first component of the mix to turn
>> into a gas.
>
> Yep, mainly so I can get rid of it before putting it in the tanks at
> all.  Ammonia I can deal with later, since I don't need highly
> expensive long-term cryogenic tanks to hold ammonia solution.  I can
> separate it later if I want.

No, but you can't use the water for drinking, and it needs special
handling as ammonia water is corrosive.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:21:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:21:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20416.223451.7R6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson writes:
> <Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would 
> work
> reasonably well against just about any weapon.>
>
> Ok, what is the difference between sand and chaff?  I always that chaff was 
> strips of foil cut to a particular length of the
> wavelength of a radar, and the sand in a sandcaster used particles of the 
> correct size to interact with the laser wavelength.  I thought they were 
> the same process.

Nope. The particle size for light wavelengths is *way* too fine. And
the mechanism would be rather different anyway.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20416.221609.5h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/16/02 3:50 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:
>
>> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
>> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
>> over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
>> LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
>> unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
>> paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.
>> 
>> The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
>> volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
>> water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
>> upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.
>> 
>
> Just curious, but what about storing H2 as hydrides?  Don't you get a higher
> density?

But an even worse *mass* penalty than water, ammonia or methane.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:26:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:26:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018999846.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20416.223754.8r1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>> 
>> The particles take a fair amount of energy to melt. While molten they
>> continue to retro-reflect part of the beam and disperse the rest.
>> 
>> They take even more energy to vaporize and form a plasma easily. The
>> plasma is opaque to laser energy and absorbs even *more* of the beam
>> energy.
>
> Now, let's consider a typical example: a typical TTL13 X-ray laser.
> It focuses to a beam 1 cm wide, with an unclear duration; we'll
> assume 100 milliseconds, as that will avoid significant problems with
> the beam impact point moving.  The total beam energy is on the order
> of 400 megajoules, and has a damage value (T4) of 50.

That's a *pulse* energy.

> The target is a 200 dton sphere, with a cross-section of 240 square meters. 
> One can at AV 50 is 320 kilograms.  Since the beam has a cross-section of
> 0.0001 m^2, it actually strikes 0.13 grams of sand.
>
> As it happens, X-rays can go through that much material without even worrying
> about getting it out of the way.  Ignoring that, if we assume the 'sand' is
> synthetic diamond, it has a heat of vaporization of 8 kilojoules.  Further
> ignoring the fact that X-rays don't generally reflect very well, through a
> variety of tricks we'll argue that the actual energy of vaporization is 1
> megajoule (125x greater).
>
> 399 megajoules to go.  Well, perhaps the vapor is opaque.

Well, plasmas tend to be very opaque to many wavelengths. Obviously,
you tune the composition of the "sand" to enhance this.

> Let's add another
> megajoule to the vapor, heating it up to some obscene temperature, and assume
> that 90% of the absorbed energy is lost to immediate reradiation.  The
> remaining 100 kilojoules causes the gas in the path of the laser to explode
> outwards, with an average velocity of 39 kilometers per second.  1 
> microsecond
> later, the plasma has had its density drop by a factor of around 10, which
> should allow the X-rays to shine through.  Since the power output is 4
> megajoules per microsecond, the total energy absorbed by the sand is maybe 5
> megajoules.  Gee, only another 80x increase in efficiency and we'll actually
> stop the beam.

Excuse me? 4 megajoules per microsecond is 4 *terawatts* beam beam. 

A 4 megajoule *pulse that lasts a microsecond *is* apt to get stopped.
Or at least badly dispersed.

>> Well, in space, outside of low orbit, stuff like sand and "smoke" tend
>> to be rather more effective, because they don't get left behind. 
>
> Well, if you don't use any thrust and use gravetics to prevent the stuff from
> wandering, sure.

Check the rules. Sand is *specificly* described as getting left behind
if you accelerate.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:27:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:27:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20416.232156.7Z0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Dear Folks -
>
> In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see 
> <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file 
> their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
>
> Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and 
> although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the 
> end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned 
> for a financial year until after you've earned it.
>
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
> timetable works??

For normal people, the tax year runs from Jan 1 to Dec 31. Employers
have until Jan 31 to get the W-2 forms (which show how much you made
and how much tax was withheld) to you. And you've got until April 15th
to file your taxes for the year that ended Dec 31.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:29:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:29:07 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20416.150551.5I5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <00ec01c1e624$f8803f10$1f9e15ac@warrior>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?


> In mail you write:
>
> > ObTrav:  There is a (Star Trek created?) stereotype of
> > the engineer who can fix anything but no one can tell
> > how he does it.  What other stereotypes are common in
> > your games?
>
> The "engineer as wizard" stereotype has existed *at least* as long as
> widespread use of steam engines. And some would argue it goes back to
> the old seige engineers of medieval and Roman times.
>

I seem to remember reading somewhere that early artillerists were considered
practioneers of black magic :)



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:57:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:57:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>; from david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au on Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:56:56AM +1000
References: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020416192131.A14539@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:56:56AM +1000,
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> 
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
> timetable works??

You've until 15 April to post your tax return--that is, the
calculation of how much you owe or are owed--for the _last_ year.  So
a few weeks back I posted my return for 1 January-31 December '01.
Ended up owing money, which annoys a lot of people, but not me.

Why?  Because I held onto that money for the duration of the year, and
thus could earn interest on it.  Getting a tax return from the gov't
is another way of saying that you lent it some great sum without
interest.  Who'd want to do that?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The English love making fun of foreigners, whose mere existence they
regard as an enormous jest.                             --Iain Pears

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:59:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:59:45 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020416231641.82811.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417083837.009f5b80@mindspring.com>

At 09:16 AM 4/17/02 +1000, you wrote:

>Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
>are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
>pointy stick :)

Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future leader of men?  :P


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"What are we gonna do tonight Brain?"
"the same thing we do every 4 years Pinky,
Judge Olympic Figure Skating!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 10:01:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 09:01:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half 
>of the original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has 
>elapsed, 1/4 decay in the next half-life period, 1/8 in the 
>half-life after that, etc.
>

then it's not possible to accelerate *any* mesons at all, 
given their half-life.  Almost all of them would be gone 
before they got to the end of the accelerator.

Please contact Los Alamos and inform them that the meson 
accelerator that they have been using since 1968 is a fake.  
It sends beams of mesons out without irradiating the 
accelerator.  The only items that become "hot" are in the 
target area.  Please explain how that is done.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 10:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Apr 17 09:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
Message-ID: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com>

I can think of one good reason for ships to ignore their own '100D Limit', 
the Solomani beating the Vilani, Starships to refuel from Gas Giants, 
Stewards et al to earn seemingly inflated wages and a whole host of other 
'unrealistic' issues with the Official Traveller Universe...

It is a GAME - it is meant to be FUN.

Yes, we can enjoy trying to 'prove' or 'disprove' various facets of 
Traveller "life" based on current knowledge, but please remember that:
(a)not everybody really cares if it is possible in RealLife(tm) to dodge a 
laser 'fired' by someone standing five feet away,
(b)Earth is flat/the center of the Universe; man will never travel quicker 
than 25mph without suffocating; man will never reach the moon; Einstein's 
"Special THEORY of Relativity" is, um, a theory...
(c)we know more now than the Great Ancient Ones wrote the LBBs.

It could just be me, but I sometimes get the impression that we get a little 
wrapped up in discussing the technical aspects of the game and forget that 
it is "just a game".
There is much more information available in the 'public domain' than when 
the first edition of "Traveller" left the printers.  We seem to have people 
from nearly all walks of life in the TML membership (except Lawyers:-), so 
we have a much greater depth and breadth of experience an knowledge to draw 
upon.

Or, to quote the Wise Old Bird...

"Because it is artistically *right*..."

Whinge over, I now return you to your previous incarnations...

Jeff
(By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how 
much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight 
slows the game a little..?)

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 10:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 09:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204171605.EGN07388@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug gives advice:

>>Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
>>are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
>>pointy stick :)
>
>Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future 
>leader of men?  :P
>

God help them.  I'm almost of the opinion that officers 
should be enlisted first.  Even academy cadets should 
complete 2 years before going to the academy.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:36:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:36:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not?
In-Reply-To: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204171212050.4680-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Jeff Rowse wrote:
> It is a GAME - it is meant to be FUN.

But these discussions ARE fun!

> (a)not everybody really cares if it is possible in RealLife(tm) to dodge a 
> laser 'fired' by someone standing five feet away,

Nobody really has to care; the discussion can and should be ignored
whenever it gets in the way of actually playing the game.  Very few posts
to this list are accompanied by the message, "Warning: we recommend
avoiding Traveller until this issue is resolved.  Proceed at yourown risk."

> (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how 
> much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight 
> slows the game a little..?)

Roll to see if I eat your spleen.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:37:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:37:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020417203822.1ab3cb30.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Roseberry wrote:
> Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
> Architects fees? Anyone?

Slartibartfast

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20416.223754.8r1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019061859.2225.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
>
> > 399 megajoules to go.  Well, perhaps the vapor is opaque.
> 
> Well, plasmas tend to be very opaque to many wavelengths. Obviously,
> you tune the composition of the "sand" to enhance this.

Right, I'm assuming this.
> 
> Excuse me? 4 megajoules per microsecond is 4 *terawatts* beam beam. 

Sure.  A 400 megajoule pulse lasting 100 microseconds.
> 
> A 4 megajoule *pulse that lasts a microsecond *is* apt to get stopped.
> Or at least badly dispersed.

Agreed.  The problem is we have a 400 megajoule pulse that lasts 100
microseconds.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:47:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:47:44 2002
Subject: [TML] LAMPF - a meson facility!
In-Reply-To: <200204170105.EFJ07268@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019061201.9084.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> ObTrav:  After your ship is hit by a meson weapon, assuming 
> you're still alive, is the ship a radioactive wreck?

Not in the area people are still alive.  Energy required to make appreciably
radioactive far exceeds energy required to kill.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:48:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:48:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F169fBi0SHfgcSoVW04000117c4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019060914.2767.ajackson@ping>

Sam D writes:
> Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to 
> enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?

No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in state
courts work.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:49:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:49:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019061329.2060.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> then it's not possible to accelerate *any* mesons at all, 
> given their half-life.  Almost all of them would be gone 
> before they got to the end of the accelerator.

Nah.  The half-life of charged mesons is sufficiently long that if you generate
them in the accelerator, they can be accelerated to a reasonable energy before
too many of them decay.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not?
Message-ID: <20020417185524.030254508@mo120usjc.palm.net>

Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
__________
>On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Jeff Rowse wrote: 
>> It is a GAME - it is meant to be FUN. 
>But these discussions ARE fun! 

In a bizzare fashion, yes.  They do tend to chase down rat holes self-repecting rats would turn their noses up at.

Trust me on this. Not only have I been down those rat holes, I've given tours and probably have squatters rights by now.

>> (a)not everybody really cares if it is possible in RealLife(tm) to dodge a  
>> laser 'fired' by someone standing five feet away, 
>Nobody really has to care; the discussion can and should be ignored 
>whenever it gets in the way of actually playing the game.  Very few posts 
>to this list are accompanied by the message, "Warning: we recommend 
>avoiding Traveller until this issue is resolved.  Proceed at yourown risk." 
> 
>> (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how  
>> much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight  
>> slows the game a little..?) 
>Roll to see if I eat your spleen. 

Ah...but they let you use your Really KEWL medical rules.  Break out the transplant rules!

"Wadda yous mean you shoot out his liver!?! Doc sez I'm on da wagon till I get a new one.  If you think I'm mean drunk, wait to see me in a DT fit."

> 
>	Gregory Kettler 
>	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before." 
>			--Dave, KODT 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New Filk
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417092008.009ea920@mindspring.com>

I put this up on my Live Journal, but it didn't get much response there, so 
I'd thought I'd post it here.

Flaming Eye

To the tune of "The Red Queen" by Leigh Ann Hussey
(note: the scansion and exact wording were lifted from the Annwn version of 
Bob Kanefsky's "Black Flag" parody, so there may be slight variations from 
the original.)


And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space
Lift up your mugs and cheer
We'll put the Terrans in their place
We're Vilani privateers

Full three thousand years and more we owned all these suns
'Till the bloody Terrans barged right in and put us on the run
But not all have bended knee, some of us are roaming free
A hidden fight that's the key, fought with blade and gun

(Chorus)
And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space
Lift up your mugs and cheer
We'll put the Terrans in their place
We're Vilani privateers
With the plasma beams burning blue
We'll burn that freighter through and through
Take the ship and kill the crew
Beware the flaming eye

Now some try to change their fate with money no longer theirs
And others try to awe by putting on stately airs
But nothing can change the fate
Of peasant or of potentate
Out the lock they go, for no one really cares

(Chorus)

We hear they're hunting us, we think that's OK
We're all itching for the chance to blow traitors away
The Terran Navy, it's to laugh
It's Vilani hulls, by more than half
We know the tricks of the battle staff, and quietly slip away

(Chorus)

It's "target lo! hard a' port, making for the jumping line"
Of escorts or Q ship tricks there isn't any sign
We'll cut that freighter's hull apart
And sell off all the useful parts
Including all the crewmens' hearts, if we make market on time

(Chorus)

And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space . . .

(Instrumental)

And we sell the loot
And we sell our slaves
Awash in riches we party on for days
Then the Captain calls us all back on board
The patrols are getting closer
Our war goes on even as we get old
It won't end until I'm good and dead and cold
Even then I'll live on in my comrades' eyes
Or as a meal, our shugulli's real
And he's already come to look me over

(slowly)
And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space . . .

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.192354.1u3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEEDDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> >> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were 
> "boiled" off.
> >
> > Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
> > a nitpick.
> 
> I was going by the figures in the post I was responding to, which had a
> higher density listed for Mercury.

No, they didn't. I quoted 5.43 for Mercury, 5.52 for Earth.

Regds

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:34:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:34:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20417.014121.1p5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
>> There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes are for
>> mesons that are *not* in motion.
>
> They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half of the
> original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has elapsed, 1/4 decay in
> the next half-life period, 1/8 in the half-life after that, etc.

Also, 1/4 decay in *half* the half-life. And 1/8 decay in half of
*that*. Etc.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:35:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:35:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416222132.009fa690@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20417.024825.4W7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>         I appreciate the comments of everyone who has replied to my initial 
> post.  I gather that sandcasters would work best
> against optical wavelengths and might require a lot of sand, but are not 
> entirely infeasible.  Particle beams and X-ray lasers appear to be another 
> kettle of fish entirely.  Years ago, before the internet, before I knew 
> anyone besides myself might be interested in space combat, I checked out a 
> copy of The Effects of Nuclear Weapons.  In it I found some interesting 
> tables on the 1/2 value thickness of various material versus various forms 
> of radiaton.  The 1/2 value thickness for X-rays was approximately 20 grams 
> per square cm for heavy metals.  But that was for a solid plate of 
> iron.  If the beam had to pass through a long distance (a few hundred 
> meters) would that make any difference?  I am wondering if a long 
> scattering distance would reduce the required density.

Actually, as long as there are 20 grams of heavy metal in a 1 cm square
column between you and the x-ray source, it still work. Doesn't matter
if the column is 1 mm tall or 1 km tall. 

That's how the atmosphere can shield from x-rays. It's not very dense,
but there's a *lot* of it. 

Ditto for how smoke blocks sight. It's a bunch of *really* fine
particles. Not much density, but there are so many that any light
trying to get to you from the other side always runs into a particle. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:47:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:47:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84@aol.com>

--part1_cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 16/04/02 18:28:14 GMT Daylight Time, 
texasredshift@hotmail.com writes:


> At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
> Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
> judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
> 
> Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
> Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?
> 
> What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?
> 
> Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
> 

I have to say that in MTU (and I make no claim that this is transferable to 
anyone elses) there is no such thing as Imperial law in the sense of 
statutes. Instead all decisions are driven by the precedent of rulings by 
Emperors, or their legitimate servants, on the same (or similar) subjects. 

The role of lawyers is to argue precedent or to force the passage of decision 
up the hierarchy of courts until precedent is set. Theoretically the final 
arbiter is the current Emperor, who can set new precedents or overturn old 
ones. Practically the Emperor delegates this role to selected nobles and to 
the moot except in exceptional circumstances.

My courts apply the same burden of proof in both civil and criminal cases, in 
my case "on the balance of probabilities" rather than "beyond reasonable 
doubt". Juries are not a recognised concept and instead panels of nobles 
ranging from one to the entire moot, depending on the case, make decisions 
after hearing argument. It does not take a genius to work out that the system 
is highly open to abuse.

There is no real distinction between civil and criminal law at the Imperial 
level. Instead all cases are treated in the same way and dealt with through 
the same channels. The main difference is that in some cases precedent holds 
that the court should appoint Imperial investigators to gather evidence. In 
other cases the burden of investigation lies entirely with the litigant. 
 
Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 18:28:14 GMT Daylight Time, texasredshift@hotmail.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">At the base of this topic is one key issue:&nbsp; How litigous is the Imperium?<BR>
Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?&nbsp; Or are lawsuits rare and<BR>
judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?<BR>
<BR>
Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?<BR>
Is jury trial available?&nbsp; Are judges elected? Appointed?<BR>
<BR>
What does canon have to say on this?&nbsp; What do you have to say?<BR>
<BR>
Bill Scheets aka "Tex"<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I have to say that in MTU (and I make no claim that this is transferable to anyone elses) there is no such thing as Imperial law in the sense of statutes. Instead all decisions are driven by the precedent of rulings by Emperors, or their legitimate servants, on the same (or similar) subjects. <BR>
<BR>
The role of lawyers is to argue precedent or to force the passage of decision up the hierarchy of courts until precedent is set. Theoretically the final arbiter is the current Emperor, who can set new precedents or overturn old ones. Practically the Emperor delegates this role to selected nobles and to the moot except in exceptional circumstances.<BR>
<BR>
My courts apply the same burden of proof in both civil and criminal cases, in my case "on the balance of probabilities" rather than "beyond reasonable doubt". Juries are not a recognised concept and instead panels of nobles ranging from one to the entire moot, depending on the case, make decisions after hearing argument. It does not take a genius to work out that the system is highly open to abuse.<BR>
<BR>
There is no real distinction between civil and criminal law at the Imperial level. Instead all cases are treated in the same way and dealt with through the same channels. The main difference is that in some cases precedent holds that the court should appoint Imperial investigators to gather evidence. In other cases the burden of investigation lies entirely with the litigant. <BR>
 <BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:48:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:48:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <20417.014121.1p5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net> <20417.014121.1p5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020418082417.B31848@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Also, 1/4 decay in *half* the half-life. And 1/8 decay in half of
> *that*. Etc.

A minor quibble -- 30% decay in the first half of the half life, and
16% decay in 1/4 of the half-life.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:49:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:49:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F169fBi0SHfgcSoVW04000117c4@hotmail.com> from "Sam D" at Apr 17, 2002 02:39:00 PM
Message-ID: <200204172127.g3HLRW601938@localhost.uia.net>

> Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to 
> enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?
> 
> This concept is pretty palatable in the US, because there has to be 
> jurisdiction for a court to hear a case and due process is constitutionally 
> guaranteed.  But is that necessarily the case in the Imperium?

I'm not sure how exactly this would tie in to Traveller, however, there
is a strange situation which has cropped up recently with NAFTA (the
north american free trade agreement). Apparently, there's a section
which states that if nation A (or a jurisdiction thereof) passes a
law which impinges upon the profits (or future profitability) of a
company based in nation B but doing business in nation A, then the
company can sue nation A. The real trick is that this doesn't go
to a court of nation A or nation B. Instead, it goes to a private
three-judge tribunal, one judge appointed from each nation, and
the third judge (the chairman of the tribunal) being appointed by
both. Their proceedings are secret (no reporters allowed), and they
routinely hand out multi-million dollar judgements.

As just one recent example, there's a gasoline additive formerly
used in California which helps oxygenate the gas and helps it
burn more cleanly. However, the stuff is toxic, and one drop
getting into the groundwater can ruin acres of water. So California
decided to phase the stuff out. However, the Canadian company that
produces it cried foul, sued through NAFTA, and if my understanding
is correct, the 3-judge tribunal sided with them.

The reason the US wanted this special tribunal in place is because
we don't trust the Mexican courts, however, we've already used the
same tactic against Mexico. Again, if my understanding is correct,
an American company paid kickbacks to some officials in the
Mexican government to obtain a permit to use a certain area of
their land as a waste dump (not sure if it's a toxic dump or what).
Anyway, so the locals got angry and passed a local ordinance to
stop what the company was doing. So the company sued Mexico through
NAFTA and won.

From what little I've read, the Mexicans are unhappy about this
whole situation, the Canadians are uneasy, and the USA is a bit
conflicted, some people claiming that private business should not
have to shoulder the costs of environmental protection while others
point out that in the first example, if the company producing the
gasoline additive were based in the USA, it would not have been able
to sue California for passing a law to phase out the additive, but
because the company was Canadian, it could sue through NAFTA, the
net result being that foreign companies have more rights than
domestic. So basically, NAFTA seems to make it better to do business
abroad than to do business at home, and it also makes it much more
difficult for politicians to pass environmentally protective laws
because of the potential legal/financial ramification brought by
foreign companies who's nations are signators to the treaty.

How all this relates to Traveller, I'm not sure. It may be that
worlds will use a system of treaties and joint tribunals to
negotiate their legal disputes. However, because of the canonical
existence of the nobility and the existance of subsector and sector
government, I would tend to find it more likely that there would
be a level to the Imperial judicial system which supercedes the
authority of nation-worlds. This is a bit tricky, because it takes
some degree of sovereignty away from individual worlds, so how
exactly one would draw the lines is an interesting question.
Somebody should really write a book or article focusing on the
Imperial legal system, preferably somebody already well versed in
International Law, but also mindful of, say, late Roman history
or whatever society people would consider analogous to the Imperial
model.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:51:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:51:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417010106.E5149279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204180015090.24858-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Stephen Tempest writes:

>Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Somewhere around 1,500 quadrillions would be my guess (15 trillion people
with an average of Cr10,000).

Andrew Jackson wirtes:

>Hm...my figure seems to be at 103PCr/year, which is well within the margin of
>error.  Of course, there's a fairly significant problem with the old Atlas of
>the Imperium data -- there's only around 9,000 imperial worlds, not the 11,000
>there's supposed to be.

Do you mean 9,000 systems rather than the 10,000 there's supposed to be?
IIRC the figures are 11,000 worlds in 10,000 systems, implying quite a lot
of systems with multiple worlds (But don't ask me to back this up with a
quote, I've no idea where I got that notion). I admit that we've seen
precious little evidence of multiple worlds elsewhere in canon (But when I
get around to doing my planned writeup of Deneb, I'm going to change
that).


Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:53:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:53:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417010106.E5149279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417165617.00a9ea90@mail.pi.se>

Hello everyone!

>Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

<snip>

>Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
>that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
>An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
>perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
>planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
>come up eventually.

There is a simple way to make planets more dense without changing the basic 
composition. Bigger terrestrial worlds will have higher density because of 
compression, which is far more effective for bigger bodies. Just adding 
more rock will make the rock more dense.

Earth has a compressed density higher than Mercury, but the uncompressed 
density is considerably less. If a planet had the composition of Mercury 
and the radius of Earth, which potentially could happen in an decently 
iron-rich inner system with a major collision between two large rocky 
worlds, that planet would have even greater density than Mercury has, say, 
somewhere between 6 and 6.5. If a world with the composition of Earth is 
50% greater in radius it also would likely have higher density than Earth.

On the other hand, if we think of an Earth-size world with the composition 
of Mars, it would still have a density of say, 4.5 to 5. I'd argue a more 
common problem in RPGs is that densities for Earth-like worlds are too low. 
(Big world with low density to generate decent gravity-style.)

If we list some solar system bodies, with the compressed density first and 
the uncompressed density afterwards:

Mercury 5.4     5.3
Venus   5.2     4.3
Earth           5.5     4.5
Moon            3.3     3.2
Mars            3.9     3.8

Incidentally, this also means that the GURPS divisions into say, "low-iron" 
and "medium-iron" worlds is rather non-useful for terrestrial worlds of 
differing sizes than Earth.

When it comes to high densities, superjovians, brown dwarves and red dwarf 
stars are other examples of where a 100D-radius may be considerably 
different from a version based on tidal differential force. A small red 
dwarf star can have a density 50-100 times higher than the Sun - or any 
material on Earth, for that matter. A medium-size brown dwarf more than a 
billion years old could easily have a density several times greater than 
Earths average.

> > The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> > much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
>Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
>in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
>superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

A possible other reason is that Mercury experienced, just like Earth, major 
impacts which blew off quite a deal of the surface.

When it comes to hot superjovians, their escape velocity due to high 
gravity is enough to keep gasses from escaping. Those gas giants 
will  probably be bigger in radii than normal outer system gas giants can 
be, because of the energy they receive from the star. There was a nice 
paper on 51 Pegasi's inner planet, but I can't find it right now. If anyone 
is interested, mail me off-list and I'll provide the link when I find it...

>Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
>message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
>need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
>all.

I believe emphasis has its points, but emphasizing too many words, say one 
in ten, makes posts difficult to read without reading in a "tone" of the 
post. I usually overemphasize like _this_ far too often. ,-)

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:54:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:54:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20417.024825.4W7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019073068.7515.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Actually, as long as there are 20 grams of heavy metal in a 1 cm square
> column between you and the x-ray source, it still work. Doesn't matter
> if the column is 1 mm tall or 1 km tall. 

Doesn't really need to be heavy metal, heavy elements are a bit better, but the
difference is not terribly impressive.  However, a really thick barrier might
reduce the ability to penetrate armor by refraction, not sure to what degree
X-rays can be refracted without being absorbed.

20g/cm^2 sounds a bit high for typical x-rays, though.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:55:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:55:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
 <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417154328.0227e168@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:20 PM 4/16/2002, Stephen Tempest wrote:
>Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Yes, many years ago.  The figure was derived from the old DGP sector files 
using CT (Striker and TCS) figures.  I had MCr 219,474,958,700 for the 
Gross Imperial Product.  SO, no - the Imperium could not (in a million 
years) afford to build a jump-capable planet.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:56:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:56:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters (2nd try)
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417224940.00aac690@mail.pi.se>

Hello everyone!

>Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

<snip>

>Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
>that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
>An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
>perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
>planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
>come up eventually.

There is a simple way to make planets more dense without changing the basic 
composition. Bigger terrestrial worlds will have higher density because of 
compression, which is far more effective for bigger bodies. Just adding 
more rock will make the rock more dense.

Earth has a compressed density higher than Mercury, but the uncompressed 
density is considerably less. If a planet had the composition of Mercury 
and the radius of Earth, which potentially could happen in an decently 
iron-rich inner system with a major collision between two large rocky 
worlds, that planet would have even greater density than Mercury has, say, 
somewhere between 6 and 6.5. If a world with the composition of Earth is 
50% greater in radius it also would likely have higher density than Earth.

On the other hand, if we think of an Earth-size world with the composition 
of Mars, it would still have a density of say, 4.5 to 5. I'd argue a more 
common problem in RPGs is that densities for Earth-like worlds are too low. 
(Big world with low density to generate decent gravity-style.)

If we list some solar system bodies, with the compressed density first and 
the uncompressed density afterwards:

Mercury 5.4     5.3
Venus   5.2     4.3
Earth           5.5     4.5
Moon            3.3     3.2
Mars            3.9     3.8

Incidentally, this also means that the GURPS divisions into say, "low-iron" 
and "medium-iron" worlds is rather non-useful for terrestrial worlds of 
differing sizes than Earth.

When it comes to high densities, superjovians, brown dwarves and red dwarf 
stars are other examples of where a 100D-radius may be considerably 
different from a version based on tidal differential force. A small red 
dwarf star can have a density 50-100 times higher than the Sun - or any 
material on Earth, for that matter. A medium-size brown dwarf more than a 
billion years old could easily have a density several times greater than 
Earths average.

> > The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> > much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
>Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
>in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
>superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

A possible other reason is that Mercury experienced, just like Earth, major 
impacts which blew off quite a deal of the surface.

When it comes to hot superjovians, their escape velocity due to high 
gravity is enough to keep gasses from escaping. Those gas giants 
will  probably be bigger in radii than normal outer system gas giants can 
be, because of the energy they receive from the star. There was a nice 
paper on 51 Pegasi's inner planet, but I can't find it right now. If anyone 
is interested, mail me off-list and I'll provide the link when I find it...

>Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
>message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
>need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
>all.

I believe emphasis has its points, but emphasizing too many words, say one 
in ten, makes posts difficult to read without reading in a "tone" of the 
post. I usually overemphasize like _this_ far too often. ,-)

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:57:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:57:22 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020416222702.02624008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3CBDD666.1080706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> At 02:40 PM 4/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>> William Lane wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the 
>>> list. to
>>> everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off 
>>> topic
>>> info.
>>
>>
>> That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
>> XML to Cobol and back...
> 
> 
> 
> Way cool!  Can I add this to my Traveller Maintenance Blues page?
> <http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html> 
> 
> 
Why surely!

Hey everybody...this is blanket permission to put anything I write here 
on your web sites, if you want.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:58:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:58:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F18T2Y89RdrUnR65Cbk00002a25@hotmail.com>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Sam D writes:
> > Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to
> > enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign 
>judgments?
>
>No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
>difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in 
>state
>courts work.

I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home turf, 
because that is the only place you can collect.  That should discourage 
litigation, and make a lot of lawyers rich with asset protection seminars.  
Maybe some worlds would become big Switzerlands where the wealthy hide their 
dough.

So I guess you would sue free traders where there ship is registered, 
because that is where title would be?  Then how do you actually get 
possession if other worlds are free to ignore the judgments of other worlds?

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:58:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Marsh)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:58:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <F53kOhpWL26mtgK3jca000025a8@hotmail.com>

Just to muddy the waters a bit. I am not so sure that the ovaries are that 
more sensitive to radiation than, say, testes but that a womans lifetime 
supply of egg cells are produced at the onset of puberty and the ovaries is 
the time released delivery system. The older the woman the older the eggs. 
This is unlike the testes which make em fresh as they go.

The woman's eggs are more sensitive in that the older the eggs the longer 
the possible exposure to radioactivity over the years.

However, I would think all things being equal a woman's ovaries being 
internal vs testes being external would make the man's reproductive cells 
more prone to radiation induced errors.

ObTrav: Perhaps on a world where there was a high background level of 
radiation there might exist a market for healthy donor eggs from another 
planet.


>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: Re: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:25:31 +0300 (EEST)
>
>On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, David P. Summers wrote:
> > Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can
> > easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the
> > skin (or more than a meter or two of air).
>
>Hm, don't alpha particles have even less range than beta? I remember
>something like centimeter scale ranges in air.
>
>Of course, they won't penetrate the skin. Still, if you get them into your
>body, they are mighty dangerous: the heavier the particle, the greater the
>damage. (Alpha particles are helium nuclei, that is, two protons and two
>neutrons, and about 8000 times more massive than electrons which make up
>beta radiation.)
>
>--
>Mikko Parviainen
>"I quote signatures."
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


th

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:59:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:59:44 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020417.130803.-189643.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 08:39:43 -0700 Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> At 09:16 AM 4/17/02 +1000, you wrote:
> 
> >Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
> >are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
> >pointy stick :)
> 
> Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future leader 
> of men?  :P
> 
> Douglas E. Berry 

Nah, he's just a Butter Bar wanna be.

Like Lt. Gorman in Aliens

Hey Top, you take the men in, I'll just watch the camera's, and make sure
my boots don't get scuffed, oh, and once your in the meat grinder I'll be
here to lead you out.

Yes Sir, were on it. Vasquez you take point.


Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:00:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:00:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEICCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Pions can be created by the collision of matter and antimatter.
The creation time can be tightly controlled.  So the start point
for acceleration to relativistic speeds is therefore controlled.

It requires far less handwaving than that required for plasma/fusion
weapons.

Neither of the latter can produce a "bolt" of plasma that
can fly downrange, in air or in vacuum.  No guide beams, etc, 
are going to help.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:01:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:01:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204170923130.29728-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204170923130.29728-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8e39ddf9659@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:25 AM +0300 4/17/02, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, David P. Summers wrote:
>>  Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can
>>  easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the
>>  skin (or more than a meter or two of air).
>
>Hm, don't alpha particles have even less range than beta? I remember
>something like centimeter scale ranges in air.

Yeah.

>
>Of course, they won't penetrate the skin. Still, if you get them into your
>body, they are mighty dangerous: the heavier the particle, the greater the
>damage. (Alpha particles are helium nuclei, that is, two protons and two
>neutrons, and about 8000 times more massive than electrons which make up
>beta radiation.)

Energy is how heavy and how fast.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:02:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:02:32 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <20416.215513.5m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.215513.5m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8e39e6db7f9@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:55 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 1:28 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in
>>>   > near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near
>>>>   misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a
>>>>   single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?
>>>
>>>We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
>>>outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.
>>
>>  We are looking.  There is a program underway to catalog Earth
>>  crossing asteroids....
>
>Yes, but they are looking for the *big* ones, not the measly little
>hundred meter jobs. Detecting those would be nice, but if one hit it
>wouldn't be much worse than a big nuke.

Well, as you say, they would look for them if they could, so the 
original issue is we look for what we can see is valid.....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:03:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:03:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20417.014254.3E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20417.014254.3E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8e39f21e24f@[143.232.119.186]>

>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 7:00 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>   > The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also
>>>>   true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to
>>>>   another will depend on how far apart they are.
>>>
>>>You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
>>>depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
>>>ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
>>>forces).
>>
>>  I'm not sure what force you are talking about.  The force on any one
>>  part of the ship is the force of gravity.  Tidal forces are the
>>  relative difference in forces between different parts of an object.
>
>The "tidal forces" are due to a combination of gravity *and* motion.
>
>Remember, the ship is assumed to be in "free fall" (ie freely
>responding to gravity in some sort of orbit) when you figure the tidal
>acceleration due to the body the ship is orbiting (Note: I'm using
>"orbit" loosely, to include things like parabolic and hyperbolic
>trajectories)
>
>The "tidal forces" are due to differences in the strength of the
>primary's field and due to the motion of the ship in it's orbit.
>
>The magnitude of the forces depends not on the size of the *orbiting*
>body, but on the distance from the center of mass of that body, and
>what direction you are from the center relative to the line connecting
>primary and satellite.
>
>So, at a given distance from earth, the tidal forces at the center of
>mass of a ship due to Earth will be *zero*. At they will increase as
>you move away from that point. The direction and magnitude of the
>forces depends on the distance from that center and upon the direction
>relative to the line joining that point to the center of the Earth.
>
>Anything "attached" to the ship is subject to those forces.
>
>The forces will be the same at 100 meters in a given direction from the
>center of the ship whether the ship is a tiny scout with a pole
>sticking out in that direction or or 1 km long ship with that point
>being inside the ship.
>
>Secondary effects due to the mass distribution of the ship will modify
>those forces. But it's not the "size" of the ship per se that
>determines the strength or direction of the forces.

Motion has nothing to do with it.  If you take a ship and hold it 
stationary wrt the planetary body it will still encounter tidal 
forces.  If you had so much thrust that you could hold you ship 
stationary near a black hole, tidal forces can still tear the ship 
apart (and/or squeeze it together).

Lets look at this more generally.  Gravity changes with distance. 
That means that things that are at different spots experience 
different gravitational forces.  If these things are different 
objects, then their forces due to gravity (and their accelerations) 
are just different.

If these things are part of a rigid object, they can't have different 
accelerations and forces occur trying to pull the object apart (along 
the axis toward the body, it get squeezed together along the 
perpendicular axis).  This is the tidal force (or on aspect of it, it 
can also turn objects around, etc).  The bigger the object is, the 
further the different parts are apppart, the bigger the differences 
in the force of gravity, the  greater the tidal force is.

You are also being loose with the difference between tidal forces and 
tidal acceleration.  Different forces would produce different 
accelerations in different parts of the body if they weren't 
compensated by internal forces in the body (unless it is within the 
Roche limit and the body breaks up).

Getting to the original point.  The quantity that is close to being 
an explanation of the 100 diam limit is the gravitational gadient 
(the rate at which the force of gravity changes with distance).  Now 
this is, of course, is directly related to the tidal force (the tidal 
force depends directly on this and the size of an object) so some 
call it a tidal <this or that>.  I happen to think the gravitational 
gradient gives more intuitive feel for what the quantity represents.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:04:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:04:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes (was: Quick Query on US Tax Returns)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEDLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417162722.022054a8@mail.qrc.com>

At 08:31 PM 4/16/2002, Andy Brick wrote:
>ObTrav: What about tax returns in the Imperium?

I've tried various schemes in my Traveller games, and the thing that worked 
best was to ignore it entirely.  Here's the way it works IMTU:

The Imperium collects taxes from member worlds; as part of their 
membership, worlds agree to many things.  This includes the requirement 
that the world will pay taxes to the Imperium based on a percentage of the 
world's assessed Gross Planetary Product (GPP).  Most worlds are taxed at 
about 1% of their GPP; the exact rate may vary from world to world 
depending on the details (for example, a TL-1 world with a barter economy 
may not pay taxes at all).  Special taxes may also be assessed from time to 
time (for example, a war emergency tax); tax relief may also be provided in 
some cases.

The Imperial bureaucracy is responsible for setting tax rates, assessing 
GPPs, and ensuring the money is collected into the treasury.  In general, 
these operations are routine: GPPs are determined by the IISS Imperial 
Grand Survey and are generally well-known; world governments remit their 
taxes and the Imperial government has funds with which to 
function.  Enforcement (and the settlement of disputes) is the 
responsibility of the Imperial Nobility, who may be able to set policy 
(depending on their status and area of responsibility) and can call on 
Imperial resources (Navy, Marines, Army) to enforce it.

Individual citizens are not responsible for any taxes to the Imperium; 
there is no per-capita or personal income tax at the Imperial 
level.  Planet-bound corporations also do not pay Imperial taxes.  However, 
member worlds are free to tax their corporations and residents however they 
see fit; different worlds have different policies, and probably every tax 
or revenue-generation scheme that has ever been conceived is in operation 
somewhere in the Imperium.  Different worlds may have different ideas about 
who can be taxed (many worlds, particularly those with sealed environments, 
levy a tax on everyone who visits the world).

Active Imperial military, starship crews, and other travellers who do not 
generally reside on any particular planet do not generally pay 
taxes.  Some, who wish to retain citizenship on a particular world, will 
pay taxes anyway and may even participate in other civic responsibilities 
(voting, civil service, etc.) in absentia.

Imperial corporations (that is, interstellar corporations with an Imperial 
charter) do not pay taxes to any world, nor do they pay taxes to the 
Imperium.  However, long-standing custom dictates that when a corporation 
is granted an Imperial charter, the company gives the Imperial family a 
gift of small fraction (typically around 1%) of it's shares.  Many Imperial 
corporations, particularly those who are not otherwise owned or backed by 
nobles, also give smaller numbers of shares to other important nobles in 
their area of operations.

Thus, while taxes can be a motivating factor for political or economic 
events in my Traveller universe, they are not generally something that the 
PC's have to worry about (unless, of course, they happen to be outside of 
the starport extrality fence on New Hong Kong for Tax Notification Day).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:05:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:05:12 2002
Subject: [TML] The L-E Digest?
References: <F82qi8VjUwZcSlVviFl0000bd6b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBDF4DC.391C2BC0@premier.net>


Jeff Rowse wrote:
> 
>>snip>>
> 
> Jeff.
> "Who ordered the Meat Feast with extra Bantha?" - Pizza the Hutt.

In reference to your .sig file, check this page from BBspot:

http://bbspot.com/News/2002/04/before.html

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:07:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:07:23 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20416.220459.6d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net> <20416.220459.6d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020418082212.A31848@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?
...
> You want it because you were making such a fuss about not being able
> to use oxygen to convert methane to water and CO2 because you'd lose
> the oxygen if you threw away the CO2.

I did.  That doesn't mean I want to have a special LOX tank just in
case I can find hydrogen but not water.  Most of the time I'm going to
be buying water from the starport I'm docked at.  Most of the rest of
the time, I'll be getting it from iceballs or seas.  That's much safer
than gas giant skimming, if nothing else.  In a desperate situation, I
*might* come across a system that has a gas giant but no water.  (The
only plausible cases I can think of involve a gas giant inside the
star's 100D limit) In that case I can still skim hydrogen gas and
process it into the LHyd tank for a 1-parsec jump.  If there is any
water in the GG atmosphere (likely if there is no water elsewhere), I
can collect that too, diffuse though it may be.

In short, I don't need (nor want) LOX.  I don't need (nor want) to
burn methane.  I want *water*.


> Also, what version of Traveller are you running? Most version have jump
> fuel being the majority of the tankage?

GT, but I did the same in MT.  It is *my* Traveller universe, after
all.


> Only if the *mass* of the ship doesn't matter in your TU.

By and large, it doesn't.  In the OTU either.

The single overwhelming factor in determining the running cost of a
ship is the mortgage.  The single overwhelming factor within that is
the cost of jump drives, which depend entirely on *volume*.


> Only at the cost of *not* being able to refuel by scopping at a gas
> giant. The atmosphere is 90%+ hydrogen.

That just means you need to spend a bit longer scooping for the other
stuff, a time which in itself is relatively minor compared to the time
taken to get to and from a gas giant's 100D limit.  But why perform
that dangerous maneuver at all when you've got almost always got
lovely little microgravity water sources nowhere near so deep into a
100D limit?


> No, but you can't use the water for drinking,

I can after I remove the ammonia.


> and it needs special handling as ammonia water is corrosive.

Scary.  You were talking about hundreds of tons of cryogenic LH2.
Ever looked up the MSDS for that?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:11:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:11:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Bomb pumped lasers - was Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20020416221003.EBEC727A30@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16xlxZ-00044d-0W@anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net>

> I seem to recall something about X-ray lasers being developed, but they're not
> exactly weapons-grade.  The old SDI people talked about bomb-pumped X-ray
> lasers, a mechanism which AFAIK has never been successfully demonstrated, not
> that this prevent people from using it in SF.

So how theoretical or handwavium are bomb-pumped lasers? Is it just that we haven't developed the technology to successfully produce them, or is it that they're physically not possible?

Rob.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:12:07 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OF8A9C8510.72B94182-ON85256B9D.004D468D@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBD717E.1040301@magpiesnest.co.uk>

William Lane wrote:

 >
 >>> has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a
 >>> line at wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.
 >>>
 >
 >> Certainly have Bill (though now I tend to use JAXP, which is
 >> based around
 >>
 > Xerces but has differences). Send me your >questions and I will do
 >  my best to answer them for you.
 >
 > Here is what im doing im developing a java application that reads
 > an xml file and parses it into 3 seperate COBOL data files. the
 > cobol group eventually runs their apps and uses the data from
 > these flat files. once they are through they send them back to
 > me. i then want to parse these 3 files into a single new xml file.
 >
 > i have gotten to where i am creating the new document. i can append 
children on it ect.. ect..
 >
 > however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to 
actually be
 > written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im new to XML 
and Xerces
 > is not the best documented thing i have ever worked with. i was 
looking at
 > maybe using the serializer to send a outPutStream through it. but 
it would
 > seem to me that xerces should have a way of building this document 
out on
 > the drive.
 >
IMHO, the Serializer is the best bet because it will control the data 
structure better than writing direct to a FileOutputStream



-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk

 > > children on it ect.. ect..
 >
 > however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to
 > actually be written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im
 >  new to XML and Xerces is not the best documented thing i have
 > ever worked with. i was looking at maybe using the serializer to
 > send a outPutStream through it. but it would seem to me that
 > xerces should have a way of building this document out on the
 > drive.
 >
IMHO, the Serializer is the best bet because it will control the data 
structure better than writing direct to a FileOutputStream (although 
you can certainly do that if you like). The thing to remember is that 
when it is built an XML file is simply an ordinary text file with an 
".xml" extension instead of a ".txt" extension.

What I tend to do is use the DocumentFactory to create a new XML 
document, pile in the data by adding the nodes one by one, then grab 
the file I want to create (or update), delete the original (because 
its easier than setting a file lock) and write out the new file to the 
same filename. It isn't how it ought to be done, but I find it makes 
life easier.

Probably though, it would be worth your while taking a white paper off 
the www.java.sun.com page and seeing how it "should be" done. That way 
you are not just hacking code the way I do.

-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org> <3CBC9A4C.4000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CBD7023.2090608@magpiesnest.co.uk>

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> William Lane wrote:
> 
>>
>> Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the 
>> list. to
>> everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
>> info.
> 
> 
> That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
> XML to Cobol and back...
> 
> oBTRav> Captain finds engineer hip deep in the Jump drive controller 
> with an exceptionally old-looking piece of hardware in his hands.
> 
> Captain: "Good lord, Scottie! That's a jump *tape* reader! What is that 
> antique doing on my jump drive??"
> 
> Engineer: "Well Captain, we cannae find the right components to rrepair 
> the drive controller. Urgvark" he points to a crazed looking Vargr 
> assistant engineer, "...found this in a antique shop. We're tying it 
> into the saircuit right now."
> 
> C: "But how will we control it? I haven't seen a jump tape in my life 
> that wasn't in a museum!"
> 
> E:"Well Captain, I have a writing head from a holocorder here, we can 
> connect it to the main computer, and have it translate the control 
> instructions from the astrogation program to the correct patterns that a 
> jump tape would have. It should work, in theory, sah. " Shouts "OK 
> Urgvark! Give me some power..."
> 
> <SNAP> <Pop fsssssshhhhhh> "Turn it off! Turn it off!"
> 
> E: Through the smoke..."Ahh captain, we're going ta need some morrre 
> time..."
> 
> C: weeps.
> 
> 

Keyboard kill !!! And a waste of coffee :(

-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:21:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:21:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
 <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417154328.0227e168@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3CBDFF31.826843F6@premier.net>


Derek Wildstar wrote:
> 
> At 05:20 PM 4/16/2002, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> >Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?
> 
> Yes, many years ago.  The figure was derived from the old DGP sector files
> using CT (Striker and TCS) figures.  I had MCr 219,474,958,700 for the
> Gross Imperial Product.  SO, no - the Imperium could not (in a million
> years) afford to build a jump-capable planet.

Not even if they cashed in Betty Shugili (r) points from boxtops of
Groatburger Helper (r)? ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F18T2Y89RdrUnR65Cbk00002a25@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019084922.7419.ajackson@ping>

Sam D writes:
> >
> >No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
> >difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in 
> >state
> >courts work.
> 
> I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home turf, 
> because that is the only place you can collect.

Nah, if the defendant has a local office (sales outlet, whatever) you can sue
the local unit.

> So I guess you would sue free traders where there ship is registered, 
> because that is where title would be?  Then how do you actually get 
> possession if other worlds are free to ignore the judgments of other
> worlds? 

Well, as long as the free trader never visits the port where the judgement
against it was made, no problem.  If you ever visit that port, they can impound
your ship.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:24:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:24:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>

At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
>that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)

Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  Can 
I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
minds of men? I don't think so!

I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                     -Adam West, as Batman 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020418093454.A32118@freeman.little-possums.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!

Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
best minds in medical science?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020418095314.B32118@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Please contact Los Alamos and inform them that the meson accelerator
> that they have been using since 1968 is a fake.

I think you'll find that their mesons are *charged*, and furthermore
are moving at a really good clip when they are created.


> It sends beams of mesons out without irradiating the accelerator.

I bet it does.  It just doesn't induce significant amounts of
radioactivity in the walls of the beam tube.  Besides which, the
*density* of energy release is much greater in the target region
because the mesons collide with stuff, not decay there.


> The only items that become "hot" are in the target area.  Please
> explain how that is done.

It's pretty simple.  Pi mesons interact quite strongly with matter.
When the (remaining) mesons reach the target area, they don't "decay"
there.  They *collide*.  Collision products (and secondary products)
include a whole zoo of particles, and a few odd isotopes many of which
are radioactive with significant half-lives.

This is very different from the description of meson guns in
Traveller.  Traveller meson move unimpeded through matter, have
lifetimes instead of half-lives, and those lifetimes can be controlled
to within one part per trillion.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 18:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 17:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CBE0CC8.5010706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the 
>> fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
> 
> 
> Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
> injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  
> Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud 
> the minds of men? I don't think so!
> 
> I want my money (along with my spleen) back.
> 

But you got that back, didn't you?

Maybe that's the super power...'Grows Spleens'.

Nobody ever said it would be a GOOD superpower...;-P

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 17:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <3CBE0CC8.5010706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAGEIOCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Bruce and Doug complain about their lack of superpowers
<snip>

How do you think I feel?  I've straddled many a
thermonuclear warhead, in the forlorn hopes that
something would happen (super mutant children, for
one).

Nothing!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <p04330106b8e3cd72c219@[143.232.119.186]>

>At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the 
>>fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
>
>Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and 
>even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead 
>tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not 
>even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>
>I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that 
gets powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an 
"accident", so maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but 
whether it was "accidental".  :-)

(Though I wonder, how do you know you don't have any super powers? 
Have you _tried_ to change the course of a might river?)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <20020418093454.A32118@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417180901.009fd010@mindspring.com>

At 09:34 AM 4/18/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
> > Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> > tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> > even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>
>Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
>best minds in medical science?

That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm 
going to sue somebody.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:26:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20417.015559.9o2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFADPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi

> Also, the post I was replying to had the wrong density for Mercury, and
> had it being denser than earth. I didn't check my references until
> someone pointed out the error.

You were replying to my post, and the densities were correct there.

> The sort of normalcy I'm talking about is based soely on elemental
> abundances and the way a cloud of dust and gas collapses to form
> planets.

<lots of snippage>

> So only systems with *really* skewed elemental abundances will have
> worlds with densities much higher than Earth's. Or other *really* weird
> situations. The pulsatr planets, rocky planets that are insanely close
> to their primary (work out what would be left of Earth after a few
> billion years at 0.1 AU from the sun, for example). etc.

Well, since no-one yet fully understands the exact mechanisms by which said
cloud collapses, and since no one has yet surveyed any solar system in
detail other than our own, I'd say you were making some pretty big
assumptions about what is normal and what isn't. In addition, whilst
universal elemental abundances may in part define the mean abundance for a
given element in a given solar system, you will get local variations.
Finally, I was not looking at "really skewed" densities - I was looking at a
margin increase in the density of a terrestrial planet to 6g/cc or higher. I
would expect the densities of pulsar planets etc to be much higher than
that.

BTW, as an aside, Red Dwarfs display similar relative elemental abundances
to the Sun, but are many , many times denser.

> But that just showed that orbits weren't as stable as we thought, and
> that large bodies might form close to where the star did.

Not quite my point - this showed planets with volatile gases could survive
in the inner system, which previously had not been thought common nor
"normal". This in turn implies that your basis for "normalcy", i.e. our
solar system, may not be as normal as you think.

> They are still gas giants in most respects.

Off topic a bit this, but Superjovians are not mere gas giants, at least not
in the Jupiter/Saturn/etc sense. They are much larger (though still somewhat
short of Brown Dwarf status), and in these systems they are heated
considerably by virtue of the proximity to their primary.

> Thing is, if it wasn't rare, we'd see more variation in densities of
> objects in this system. Only bodies that get that dense are asteroid
> fragments.

Nonsense. As I am trying to get across to you, you cannot take this solar
system and assume that all other solar systems will be pretty much the same.
This bias is, in fact, a major gripe of mine with Traveller world generation
systems - they are very good at generating systems very similar to our own
but not so good at generating systems which aren't. You are taking a very
Sol-centric view of the universe.

What you are suggesting makes as much sense as examining one species of
insect, say a butterfly, and then assuming that all other species of insect
are very similar if not identical - when in fact they are not.

> The problem is managing to collect all that iron and then get *rid* of
> all the *rock* that had to accumulate with it.

One word - collision. Check out my earlier mail re the formation of the
Earth Moon system by collision with a body roughly equal to Mars. All of the
Moon is formed from the "rocky layer" of both protoplanets. Make the
impactor larger, and hey presto, more rocky material is knocked off into
space, leaving the cohesive core behind.

And collisions are very common early in the history of an accreting cloud,
after all.

> Rules of thumb are expected to work *most* of the time. and that's all
> the 100 diameter limit is.

Exactly - it's a rule of thumb. So don't bother trying to generate an exact
or precise derivation for it - you cannot have it both ways - either it's an
inaccurate rule of thumb, or a precise mathematical law. It can't be both.
You say one thing here, and something completely different at the end of
your mail.

> Sorry, but emphasis can change the meaning of a sentence. And convey
> extra meaning.

Sure. If used sparingly, and only where necessary.

> Harder for *you*, maybe. You are the only person I've ever heard make
> such an argument. And I'm far from the only person who uses them.

Not just for me, for many people.

Good netiquette is to make use of emphasis sparingly and only when
necessary. You do not do this. There was no need for example, to emphasise
the word "you" in the above sentence. It would have carried the same meaning
without.

I would suggest also that you read the guidelines for the clearer use of
English, published by the Campaign For Clear English.

> Also, they don't draw my eyes to such words. They modify the emphasis
> as I reach the word. They don't "pull" my eyes on ahead.

Then you read in a most unusual way. Most people I know, including my 5 year
old daughter, read one word at a time for sure, but are drawn to words in a
piece of prose that are highlighted or marked in some manner and will look
at those first. To give an example, my daughter has a book where the
sentence "The chicken laid an egg" has the word "egg" printed in red. This
word is the word that people see first, because it stands out, even if they
then read the sentence normally. To use emphasis on a whim as you do makes
the text distracting and hence harder to read, all with little or no extra
meaning to the reader other than that already available in the content
itself.

> By your argument, I shouldn't use emphasis in speaking either. And
> that's just plain silly.

No, I said that you shouldn't use unnecessary emphasis. There is also a
considerable difference between emphasis in  a block of text (where I can
see all of the emphasised or highlighted words first before I have reached
them) and emphasis in speech (where I have to wait to hear each word in
linear sequence, and cannot therefore be distracted by
future words). The brain is better at detecting difference than conformity,
you see.

> I emphasized it because if I was speaking I'd stress that word. That's
> not being patronizing, that's saying that I consider it very, very
> unlikely. Without resorting to overly awkward phrasing.

Why stop there, then ? Why not use stress markers to indicate which syllable
is stressed, or which sonant ? Why not add "beat" marks for pauses shorter
than commas ? Why not ? Because you don't need to, that's why. The reader is
perfectly capable of adding these details, given the context of the
sentence - it's part of the parsing effort of reading in the first place.
Also, you shouldn't need to resort to awkward phrasing to make a point.

> Work it out for yourself. Any "force" that is the same at X diameters
> (where X <>1) from bodies of different sizes *does* vary by the cube of
> the distance.  That's the way the geometry works. See below.

You missed the point. I don't dispute what you are saying, and I'm sure that
your math is perfectly correct, but you've gone off on a tangent. My
argument was that the 100 diameter rule is probably arbitrary, and given
that densities will certainly vary even if only over a limited range, using
tidal forces makes it no more uniform than any other derivation. Far better
to define a tidal gradient limit or gravitational field strength limit where
the misjump threshold is, and then calculate how many diameters out that is.
At least that way you don't need a mathematical false premise of uniform
densities across all planetary sizes in order to make the derivation fit the
rule. Of course this means that 100D is reduced to a rule of thumb, and the
actual distance varies from say 90 to 110D or whatever, but that makes more
sense.

In fact, making the 100D a rule of thumb probably means that this is a
"safe" threshold, and the actual limit occurs considerably closer, say
50-70D out but rarely higher. That means that 100D is almost always safe,
but usually way off the actual value. Compare with operational and critical
maximum dive depths for submarines, for example - the sub may take 450m of
water, but the manual may set a limit of 375m to be on the safe side.

> Work out the field strength at 100 diameters for size 1 thru 10 planets
> assuming densities similar to that of earth or even Mars. The figures
> are *way* off.

Now try the same with tidal forces where the Mars size planet has a density
equal to that of Mars, and the Earth sized planet has a density equal to
that of the Earth. Do you get the same answer ? No. This only works if all
of the 10 worlds in your calculation have the same density, which makes no
sense. Better to define jump limits in terms of field strengths, tidal force
values, etc, than a distance/number of diameters. Sure the distance will
vary, but the rule is then usable in all situations and is more internally
consistent.

Regards

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] That Traveller Sensation
Message-ID: <200204180138.ELB02368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Watching Forbidden Planet again...
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330106b8e3cd72c219@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417182539.009eb920@mindspring.com>

At 06:13 PM 4/17/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
>>>that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
>>
>>Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
>>injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead 
>>tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not 
>>even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>>
>>I want my money (along with my spleen) back.
>
>Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that gets 
>powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an "accident", so 
>maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but whether it was 
>"accidental".  :-)
>
>(Though I wonder, how do you know you don't have any super powers? Have 
>you _tried_ to change the course of a might river?)

I'm half tempted to say yes, just for the reaction...


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
                          -Chicago reader, 10/15/82


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020417200008.009f3500@mail.attbi.com>

Douglas Berry wrote:
 > Hey! How do you think I feel? I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
 > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
 > tube! Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers? Not
 > even. Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!

	Didn't you get the Control Penguins Power?  I thought you had, or maybe it 
was the Penguin Projection Power .  No, wait, isn't that the Bits project, 
Penguin Projection?  Geez, now I'm really confused. :)
	By the way, I just got my copy of ACQ.  You have been added to the list of 
games I will buy just because of the author's demonstrated competance.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3CBED3F3.19368.F24A04@localhost>

On 17 Apr 2002 at 8:31, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
> >that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
> 
> Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
> injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  Can 
> I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
> minds of men? I don't think so!
> 
> I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

Well I'd suggest re-growing an organ from nothing counts as a super-
power.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <200204171605.EGN07388@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost>

On 17 Apr 2002 at 12:05, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Doug gives advice:
> 
> >>Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
> >>are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
> >>pointy stick :)
> >
> >Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future 
> >leader of men?  :P
> >
> 
> God help them.  I'm almost of the opinion that officers 
> should be enlisted first.  Even academy cadets should 
> complete 2 years before going to the academy.

I'm very definitely of that opinion.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417222045.020ccec0@192.168.0.1>

At 08:31 AM 4/17/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
>>that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
>Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
>injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  Can 
>I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
>minds of men? I don't think so!
>I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

Oh come on...you *are* growing the spleen back.


------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Writing about jazz is like dancing about
architecture" -- Thelonius Monk
------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
In-Reply-To: <3CBDD666.1080706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020416222702.02624008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417222814.00cd62e8@192.168.0.1>

At 01:09 PM 4/17/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>>At 02:40 PM 4/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>William Lane wrote:
>>>>Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
>>>>everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
>>>>info.
>>>That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
>>>XML to Cobol and back...
>>Way cool!  Can I add this to my Traveller Maintenance Blues page?
>><http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html> 
>>
>Why surely!
>Hey everybody...this is blanket permission to put anything I write here on 
>your web sites, if you want.

Thanks!  It's up there now!



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F179u7r4LYhvH67DL5d0000f1ce@hotmail.com>

Anthony Jackson said

> > >No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
> > >difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in
> > >state
> > >courts work.
> >
> > I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home 
>turf,
> > because that is the only place you can collect.
>
>Nah, if the defendant has a local office (sales outlet, whatever) you can 
>sue
>the local unit.

If the defendant is big and has a local offices sure.  You can play games 
with that though, like having every local office as a separate corporation.  
Because the LIC is granted by the Imperium, local courts probably can not 
break through the corporate veil.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
Message-ID: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>

OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm 
getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.


Anything happen while I was gone?

Loren Wiseman

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
In-Reply-To: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8E37F0C.4CC96%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/17/02 7:31 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm
> getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.

done
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417180901.009fd010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEKFGKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

What if your new found super power is something like
"Manipulate Hivers"
"Jump successfully within 100 D"
"Explain why the islands aren't a Protectorate"

You know . . . useful things.

jml
who with a shovel can alter the course of smallish rivulets

>>>>>>>>>>

At 09:34 AM 4/18/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
> > Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> > tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> > even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>
>Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
>best minds in medical science?

That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm 
going to sue somebody.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:42:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:42:05 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
In-Reply-To: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAEEJDCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Loren comes back from the dead:

>Anything happen while I was gone?

Not much. I "do" have a question.

When you first started in on this,
back in the beginning of it all,
did you ever think that decades later,
the same players would endlessly 
discuss "canon" about the things 
you and the others wrote?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:47:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:47:25 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
References: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002b01c1e683$27970f00$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:31 PM
GDWGAMES@aol.com said,

> Anything happen while I was gone?

Just the attack of the Zhodani Penguin elite.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail". - Gore Vidal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:52:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:52:16 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
In-Reply-To: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEKHGKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Oh nothing.

Whistles innocently

Sure is nice weather isn't it

______________________________
Caesar:  I'm so mad, I just have to vent my spleen at someone

Brutus:  (fingering dagger)  Here, let me help

jml
______________________________ 


OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm 
getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.


Anything happen while I was gone?

Loren Wiseman
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEHHCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com>
>
>At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
>Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
>judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
>
>Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
>Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?
>
>What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?

Canon is generally silent on this question.  Milieu Zero posits rather an
intrusive Imperial legal system, but I think it withers over time as the
Imperium expands to the entire extent of the Ziru Sirka, and declines to
impose any but the mildest requirements on member states (calendar, Imperial
credit, abolition of slavery).

The questions you present therefore require answers on two levels: member
states and the Imperium itself.  As to member states, there are 11,000
different answers, so I won't comment further.

The Imperium itself must strike a balance between autocracy and sufficient
rule of law for commerce to function.  Access to the Imperial civil courts
will be limited to matters that involve only Imperial law, such as
interstellar commerce and certain disputes between nobles.

I've written pretty extensively on this topic in the past.  You might want
to check the TML archives.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes (was: Quick Query on US Tax Returns)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417162722.022054a8@mail.qrc.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEDLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
 <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020417223728.00a730f0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 05:35 PM 4/17/2002 -0400, Derek Wildstar wrote:

>Thus, while taxes can be a motivating factor for political or economic 
>events in my Traveller universe, they are not generally something that the 
>PC's have to worry about (unless, of course, they happen to be outside of 
>the starport extrality fence on New Hong Kong for Tax Notification Day).

Especially if you see a big Hoffmanite wearing an old X-Tel uniform running 
for the gate.

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sporadic announcement of traveller Webrings
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417234404.00ce37d8@mail.charter.net>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/TravRings.html>

I have all the Traveller related webrings I know of listed on this page.

I'm the RingMaster for the Gearhead ring & the Reavers' Deep ring.

Please feel free to join either of those if you have appropriate content.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417180901.009fd010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <003301c1e68b$dbbfb060$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Wednesday, April 17, 2002 6:09 PM
Douglas Berry said,

> That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm
> going to sue somebody.

Hey, Spleen Regeneration is a perfectly fine super power.  Just make sure
that you always take bullets in your spleen.

The bad news is your GM is going to charge you 30 character building points
for this advantage.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force. And,
like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master!"  -George
Washington


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 22:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 21:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F60NIPDrGsWt3ogiUBy000123e6@hotmail.com>

I am looking at an old article from JTAS (I think) called High Justice by 
Terry McInnes.  It deals with criminal cases, but I thought it would shed 
some light on civil law.  At the imperial and subsector level of justice, 
there are courts wtih 3-9 judges.  So, at least according to this article, 
there are courts of some sort and not just nobles dispensing justice.  FWIW.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 00:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 17 23:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <20020418093454.A32118@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204180939270.28080-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Timothy Little wrote:
> > Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> > tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> > even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
> Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
> best minds in medical science?

I think he is still missing the adamantium skeleton and the forearm
spurs...

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 04:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 18 03:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418055518.00a9a050@pop.wizard.net>

Bruce Johnson, regarding Law Level 0 worlds:
>Probably quite polite and formal, since it's likely heavily armed...and 
>the local citizenry is entirely likely to feel that maintaining public 
>order is incumbent on all members of society, as well as enforcement, 
>since LL0 worlds tend also to be low GOV worlds too.
>
>A good one to spring on a bunch of unsuspecting PC's...land them someplace 
>they're expecting to be Dodge City, and discover that it's anything but, 
>that their 'uncivilized' behavior is quickly, but firmly 
>corrected...permanently, if necessary...think a Heinleinian world of 
>self-reliant, armed and polite strangers...

I think the Dodge City reference is usually more apt than the Heinlein 
reference.  In other words, I'm thinking that territories of the United 
States before they became states, during the 1800s, are very instructive 
about the behavior of people when there's no law present.  Usually, low law 
level comes hand in hand with low population level.  The Malthusian 
pressures of population crowding are so low that nobody feels compelled to 
seek to arrange a government, police, and courts.  As population density 
increases, those things begin to be manifested.  Meanwhile, you can indeed 
get away with murder.  If you are more popular than the victim, and you 
have a good story to go along with it.  Or more feared than the victim's 
survivors.  Or you move to a distant part of the country.  Or you hang out 
with family and friends who will protect you or avenge your own death.  For 
fans of Westerns who are more familiar with the actual history of that time 
and place, 'McCabe and Mrs. Miller' is a much more accurate portrayal of 
the usual behavior in a lawless but armed society than an episode of 'The 
Lone Ranger'.

Another example that might be instructive is the evolution of the Mafia, 
Irish gangs, and Jewish gangs, and similar criminal organizations in the 
U.S. (a society that successfully ignored the law, and thus was de facto 
Law Level 0) during the 1900s.  Whoever threw their weight around the best 
got away with the most.  Both in relations between the gangs and relations 
within the gangs.  Exceptions to that rule of thumb tended to happen only 
when the law got involved or when the gangs ran their own private law in 
the form of treaties between gangs and courts run by 'nobles' and 'juries' 
within the gangs.

Heinlein is often invoked in the science fiction world as an example of 
libertarian principles at work.  I don't know how many have read his story 
'Coventry', which was set inside a huge area cordoned off by the U.S. and 
completely without laws.  Citizens of the U.S. who broke the law were 
banished to Coventry to live among the other people who felt they didn't 
need the law.  Contrary to the expectations of the rugged individualist who 
starts the story about to enter Coventry, the people inside Coventry 
evolved their own law, but one that was imposed by the biggest sharks in 
the pool and not so kind and gentle as the law they had just left 
behind.  This was Heinlein's story that most directly addressed the issue, 
and with writer as judge of the conflict between different poliltical 
systems, he clearly found in favor of the democratic one and against the 
libertarian one.

In my own science fiction (running MTU, for instance), I try to make things 
work the way I think it would probably evolve to work in those 
circumstances.  Except when I ignore that in the interests of what I think 
will make a good story, despite loss of realism.  :->  To me, a sparsely 
populated world, with little or no indigenous manufacturing capability is a 
frontier world and frontier justice is rough and the people who populate it 
are tough.  Feuds, mobs, lynchings, etc. occur.  Discharge of firearms 
within the town limits is something the more forward-thinking citizens, or 
at least business-minded citizens, would like to see stop but that doesn't 
stop the rowdy toughs coming through on a cattle drive from doing it.  I 
think that describes the situation of a lot of low law level systems.  That 
deals with systems where there is plenty of land to live on and it is in 
the process of being filled up by people.  Come back to the same spot in 
twenty-five years or even five years and it will be more populated and much 
less lawless.

There are also systems that have a low population that will never rise 
higher, usually because of poisonous atmospheres.  That is the kind of 
frontier that is most likely run as a corporate preserve, a mining 
town.  There is law, but not necessarily justice.  The law isn't law that's 
on the books.  It's just whatever the corporate managers need it to be at 
the time.

A third case of low law level worlds is when a noble administers a 
territory as his or her own private fief.  In that case, it's up to the 
noble how she or he wishes to run things.  That's the formal law.  It's 
also up to the noble to find some kind of police and other apparatus of law 
enforcement, so even a fief with lots of laws on the books may be a de 
facto Law Level 0 place.  The real world examples that most come to my mind 
are Imperial Russia, and the colonies in Africa, South America, and much of 
Asia that were run by the European powers.  A fictional example that a 
friend of mine completely bases his Traveller universe on is the first 
'Dune' book.

For me, those three categories cover most of the times in Traveller that 
you'll have low law levels.  The Dakotas and Utah in the middle 1800s, 
remote mining towns, and colonies or fiefs from various times and places in 
Earth's history.  In all of them, the law still tended to be present at 
least on paper and usually was more interested in representing the bigger 
businesses than anyone else.  The only truly Law Level 0 places I can think 
of from the real world were places that were so unexplored and thinly 
populated that humans never interacted with each other at all, hence no 
need for laws to regulate their interactions.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 04:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 18 03:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
References: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBEA2E8.3622281C@mindspring.com>

Jeff Rowse wrote:

> <snip>
> Jeff
> (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how
> much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight
> slows the game a little..?)

Yes, That's why I assume any hit on a player character completely destroys their
body, brain included.;)

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 04:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 18 03:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
References: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CBEA57A.C7BA93A2@mindspring.com>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm
> getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.
>
> Anything happen while I was gone?
>
> Loren Wiseman
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

No, We've been waiting for you.8)


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
References: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com> <3CBEA2E8.3622281C@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OE50n04x29xDbH8J0sc0000a9f3@hotmail.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:41 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)


> Jeff Rowse wrote:
>
> > <snip>
> > Jeff
> > (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how
> > much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight
> > slows the game a little..?)
>
> Yes, That's why I assume any hit on a player character completely destroys
their
> body, brain included.;)

With a massive explosion, to boot.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
 <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418064717.00a38870@pop.wizard.net>

Bill Scheets asked the following incisive questions:
>As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
>something:
>
>At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?

Not very.  Disputes between nobles are settled by higher nobles or the 
Emperor.  The political fortunes of nobles who get involved in a lot of 
disputes tend to be very bad, including even losing their noble 
title.  This conditions the population of nobles to work things out privately.

>Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?
>   Or are lawsuits rare and
>judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Depends on the planet.  This sort of thing usually belongs to planetary 
law, unless it deals with murder, slavery, or treason/sedition against the 
Imperium.  Each planet's law will be determined by its government, which 
may be as litigious or not as it wishes.

>Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?

Close to the Imperial core, planets tend to be high pop, high law level, 
and with a lot of interstellar commerce.  In such regions, the Imperium's 
wishes to maintain the flow of commerce are much more important than in 
other places.  Reciprocal agreements and extradition treaties between 
worlds have been in place for centuries are fully fleshed out, with 
sufficient bureaucratic backing and law enforcers to keep all that 
machinery running smoothly.  The to-us-familiar apparatus of courts and 
police and regulatory agencies is present, and this includes means of 
resolving civil disputes.  Nobles with power tend to be too busy to spend 
much of their time being directly involved in these matters, but will keep 
their hand in just enough to remind everyone who is boss.  Nobles with more 
title than power can (as has been suggested) and will be made use of to 
help with running the interplanetary justice system whenever things tend to 
bad for public relations or commerce.

Planets in the core will tend to have separate civil and criminal court 
systems.  Their jurisdiction only covers their own planetary governments 
borders.  Contracts between interstellar parties will state which 
jurisdiction they are contracted under, and that jurisdiction's courts will 
rule on disputes over the contract.  Interstellar libel and such will 
either get settled quickly, by a mechanism mutually agreeable to them, by 
the all governments with jurisdiction over the parties to the dispute or 
they can look forward to getting an Imperial noble take a hand in the 
disagreement.  Governments that can't work well with their neighbors in 
civil law disputes will start getting various kinds of pressure from their 
Imperial nobles to conform.  Nobles who also tend to have megacorp ties, 
and who control the gates of interstellar commerce between the worlds.

>Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

Sure, as are any other systems that the various planetary governments favor.


>What does canon have to say on this?

Not much.  The Imperium rules the space between the planets.  Government of 
men not law.  I vaguely remember some JTAS articles that describe the core 
of the Imperium as being much more an Imperial culture and Imperial 
government than the areas closer to the Imperial borders.  Out on the 
fringes, interstellar commerce is usually not as vitally important to the 
local governments and thus the Imperial nobles who govern those regions of 
space have less influence on the locals.  That's as my memory recalls it, 
and I caution that my memory is often unreliable.

Also canon that I think I recall is that the throne and nobles do tend to 
have significant power with the megacorps, and the megacorps tend to have 
significant power on the planets themselves.  And, presumably, the local 
government joined the Imperium to participate in promoting peace, order, 
and commerce and feel at least a little bit motivated to cooperate with 
each other in settling disputes between their citizens.  Or, maybe they 
just joined out of fear as people on the TML often joke, and deeply resent 
even the perception of infringement on their local authority.  The 
interstellar protection racket that is the Imperium is bad enough, in their 
eyes, without adding cultural imperialism and other interference in their 
planets' affairs.  I don't much believe in the protection racket model of 
the Imperium, but there's plenty of latitude in interpreting canon to 
permit it.  At least outside the core of the Imperium.

>   What do you have to say?

I've pretty much completely spilled my guts on the topic in this and my 
immediately preceding post.

Excellent topic and questions, by the way.  The kind of thing each referee 
should address and answer for themselves before they begin a campaign that 
involves interstellar travel.  Or even involves businesses that are 
interstellar.  We won't each have the same answers or the same Traveller 
universes, but that's part of the beauty of the Traveller game system.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020418.075038.-101319.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:13:54 +1000 (EST) =?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=
<quakers_united@yahoo.com.au> writes:
> QUOTE
> > Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> > bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's
> going
> > to see is a cloud of dust ;)
> 
> What, because you have dust in your veins instead of
> blood?  ;-)
> END QUOTE
> 
> No, because I am a vampire from buffy:the vampire
> slayer ;P

But then you would only have to worry if it was a *wooden* pointy
stick... most bayonets aren't made of wood, I suspect.  ;-)


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
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Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why Not? (was 'Why?')
Message-ID: <F270DabigPasSmz6UuE00011c1e@hotmail.com>

In mail, Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> responded to my 
somewhat ill-written missive thus...

>But these discussions ARE fun!

To which I reply...

Most of the time, anyway.  It is just that I have noticed that we often end 
up with some of us (myself included) saying "That wouldn't happen that way 
because..." - forex, Piracy or the effect of a ship's own hull and mass 
being within 100D of the jump point.
Whilst I appreciate the free education I receive from my fellow TML'ers (how 
much would a college or university charge for some of the stuff we give out 
for free??), I don't need to know it as a player character.

So, what is my ship's fuel tank lined with such that the Hydrogen doesn't 
seep out of it?  Ah, Unobtanium.  Wait a second, isn't that what powers the 
lasers I use to shoot holes in an Ethically-Challenged Merchant's ship?

As a matter of idle curiosity, does anyone *really* calculate such things as 
how much liver tissue was damaged, or is it just a case of "Sorry, there 
wasn't enough of the organ left to transplant"..?

Jeff.

"Abandon hope, all ye who press 'Enter' here..."

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 06:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Apr 18 05:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Thunderer class heavy cruiser
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEILEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

For those interested in the ships that could have thought in the
Interstellar War period I present the

THUNDERER CLASS HEAVY CRUISER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION


The Thunderer class were one of the first "battleship" designs built by the
Terrans following their contact with the Vilani.The rapidly advancing
technology of the Terrans soon made the design obsolete and they were
reclassified as heavy cruisers.

Designs effectively identical to the Thunderer continued to be built in
backwater areas and some of these managed to survive until the Second
Solomani Rim War when virus struck the region.

The relatively low tech level of the design meant that a large number were
passed on to client states, allies, and governments the Solomani were trying
to curry favour with. It is possible that at least some vessels of this
class are still in existance.


General Data Displacement: 90,000 tons  Hull Armour: 320
Length: 272 meters  Volume: 1,260,000 cubic meters
Price: MCr26,959.930864  Target Size: L
Configuration: Cylinder SL  Tech Level: 10
Mass (Loaded/Empty): 1,089,834.5929/1,020,193.4023tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 162,000 Mw Fusion Power Plant (50 Mw/hit), 1
year duration (959.888 Mw surplus)
Jump Performance: 2xJump-1 (126,000 cubic meters each)
G-Rating: 3 (45,000 Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G-Turns: 80 (102.4 allowing fuel for 1xJump-1, 124.8 with no jump reserve),
5,625 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 41,398

Electronics Computer: 3xTL10 Fb (0.6 Mw each)
Commo: 3x1,000AU Radio (8, 20 Mw ea), 3x1,000AU Maser (8, 0.6 Mw ea)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics
Sensors: 2xPassiveEMS Fixed Array 180,000km (6 hexes; 0.35 Mw ea),
3xActiveEMS 480,000km (DF Capable; 16 hexes; 315 Mw ea), 2xTL10 Neutrino
Sensor (0.01 Mw ea), 20x Running Lights (0.0001 Mw each)
ECM/ECCM: 300,000km EMS Jammer (10 hexes; 260 Mw), EM Masking (1,260 Mw)
Controls: Bridge with 662xBridge Workstations, Auxiliary Bridge with
662xBridge Workstations, Fire Control Bridge with 231xBridge, Flag Bridge
with 11xBridge Workstations, plus 2,430 Other workstations.

Armament Offensive: 1xTL10 30000-Mj N-PAW (Loc: Spinal; Arcs: 1; 4,166.667
Mw; 67 Crew), 40xTL10 812-Mj Laser 50-ton Bays (Loc: 10x4, 10x5; Arcs:
1,2,3; Loc: 10x16, 10x17; Arcs: 3,4,5; 112.778 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea), 280xTL10
130-Mj Laser Turrets (Loc: 70x2,70x3; Arcs: 1,2,3; Loc: 70x18,70x19; Arcs:
3,4,5; 18.0555 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea), 100xMissile Barbettes (Loc: 20x4, 20x5; 5
ready Missiles or Recce Drones ea; 0.15 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea)

 				Short  	Medium  	Long  	Extreme
30000-Mj Spinal N-PAW  	10:866  	20:866  	40:866  	80:866
-1 Diff Level
812-Mj Laser 50ton-Bay  8:1/23-71  	16:1/12-37  32:1/6-19  	64:1/3-9
-1 Diff Level
130-Mj Laser Turret  	3:1/9-29  	6:1/5-15  	12:1/2-7  	24:1-4
-1 Diff Level

Defensive: 30xTL10 Sandcaster Turrets (Loc: 10x1; Arcs: 1,2; Loc: 10x10;
Arcs: 2,3,4; Loc: 10x20; Arcs: 4,5; 1D10x5 per hit; 20 Cannisters ea; 1 Mw
ea; 1 Crew ea)
Master Fire Directors: 1xTL10 (3 Diff Mod; Non-Msl; 10 hexes; 13.22 Mw; 1
Crew), 40xTL10 (3 Diff Mod; Non-Msl; 8 hexes; 11.43 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea),
140xTL10 (3 Diff Mod; Non-Msl; 3 hexes; 8.074 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea), 50xTL10 (3
Diff Mod; Beam/Missile; 10 hexes; 13.37 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea)

Accomodations
Life Support: Extended (252 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (1G; 6300 Mw)
Crew: 5,492 (2,430xEngineering, 10xElectronics, 4xManeuver, 748xGunner,
522xMaintenance, 150xShip's Troops, 74xFlight Crew, 1,310xCommand,
199xStewards, 45xMedical), Flagship adds 12 (5xElectronics, 6xCommand,
1xSteward)
Crew Accomodations: 8xLarge Staterooms (0.001 Mw each), 2,050xSmall
Staterooms (0.0005 Mw each), 550xLow Berths (0.001 Mw each)
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 9,651.2 cubic meters, twenty eight large cargo hatches
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: 10 95-ton Cinnabar class shuttles with
internal hangers (minimal) and one launch port each, 2 50-ton Shrike class
fighters with internal hangers (minimal) and one launch port each, and 8
40-ton Pelican class launches with internal hangers (minimal) and one launch
port each
Air Locks: 900
Additional Fittings: 3x8-ton Sick Bay (0.8 Mw each), 5x10-ton Machine Shop
(1 Mw each), 5x6-ton Electronics Shop (0.6 Mw each)

Notes:

Fuel purification machinery (1,123.2 Mw) sufficient to purify 140,400 cubic
meters in 6 hours (30 hours for entire load exclusive of power plant fuel).
Fuel scoop capacity 252,000 cubic meters per hour.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  Surface Hits  		Internal Explosion  				Systems
1  	1-13:Ant  			1:PA,2:Sand,3-20:Qtrs  				PP-3240H,
2-3  	1-13:Ant  			1:PA,2-3:LB,4-15:Elec,16-20:Hold  		LS-1702H,FPP-1545H,
4-5  	1-3:Ant,4-5:AL  		1:PA,2-3:LBy,4:MB,5-14:Qtrs,15-20:Hold
ELS-851H,JD-756H,
6-9  	EMMR  			1:PA,2-20:Hold  					PA-391H,
10   					1:PA,2:Sand,3-20:Hold  				Hanger-384H,
11  	1-2:AL,3-6:CH,7-9:EMMR 	1:PA,2-20:Hold  					MD-135H,
12-13   				1:PA,2-20:Hold  					EMM-126H,
14-15	1-10:LP  			1:PA,2-20:Hold  					LBy-10H,LB-2H,
16-17   				1:PA,2-3:LBy,4-8:Eng,9-20:Hold  		AEMS-1H,ElecShop-1H,
18-19	1-2:AL  			1:PA,2-3:LB,4-20:Eng  				EMJammer-1H,
20   					1:PA,2:Sand,3-20:Eng  				LSR-1H,MB-1H,
   												MFD-1H,MFAnt-1H,
   												MachineShop-1H,
   												Neutrino-1H,
   												PEMAnt-1H,
   												Sand-1H,
   												SickBay-1H,
   												EMMR-(1260h),
   												SSR-(2h),
   												All others-(1h)

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 07:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Thu Apr 18 06:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

  I'm almost of the opinion that
> officers 
> > should be enlisted first
Amen to that. Was it ever like that though? Does
anybody know when it stopped if it was? And Why?
I think it instills elitism in the wrong kind of
people and the wrong kind of people are less likely to
be patient enough for a couple of years as a grunt.
Not to say that we don't have some fine officers now,
but they still need to know what it's like to be
treated like a pawn in a chess game. I doubt this
ideology would work well for pilots though.
I was never in the military,but was in AFROTC for a
while,we had a great bunch of guys and gals(with a
couple of bad eggs) but I don't know if they had it
where it counted or not. In ROTC you see a lot of
people with their heads way up in the clouds.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 08:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Thu Apr 18 07:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #416 - 37 msgs
Message-ID: <F50D2nTe1CIGj0gsmDz0000076e@hotmail.com>

In mail, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
wrote...
<<SNIP>>
Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
minds of men? I don't think so!

I want my money (along with my spleen) back.
<</SNIP>>

I dispute that third point.
<zombie_mode>
"Must get GT:Ground Forces...  Don't need food...  Dont need coffee...  Just 
Ground forces..."
</zombie_mode>

Jeff.

"Black helo?  What black helo?  <pause>  Oh sh**!"

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 08:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 18 07:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8E429CE.4E9EA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/18/02 6:46 AM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> I'm almost of the opinion that
>> officers 
>>> should be enlisted first
> Amen to that. Was it ever like that though? Does
> anybody know when it stopped if it was? And Why?

Just bear in mind that there is a reason for the distance between officers
and enlisted (speaking as one who has been both).  As officers you will be
required to give orders to your men that will result in their death or
maiming.  You will know this before hand.  It requires a certain detachment
(at least for non-sickos) to order men to their deaths.

I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that an officer should be required
to be enlisted first.  It's hard to say.  I've seen both kinds of officers,
some good and some bad.  I've seen people who came up through the ranks have
a hard time maintaining 'distance' from their people. Also, the duties of
the two groups are very different.

I suppose one could look at how we've done so far.  The vast majority of our
(US) officers come from ROTC.  We seem to be doing OK.  If it ain't broke,
don't fix it.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 08:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Thu Apr 18 07:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
References: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com> <3CBEA2E8.3622281C@mindspring.com> <OE50n04x29xDbH8J0sc0000a9f3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBEDD60.2050002@gmx.net>

Jeff Yin wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:41 AM
>Subject: Re: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
>
>
>>Jeff Rowse wrote:
>>
>>><snip>
>>>Jeff
>>>(By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how
>>>much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight
>>>slows the game a little..?)
>>>
>>Yes, That's why I assume any hit on a player character completely destroys
>>
>their
>
>>body, brain included.;)
>>
>
>With a massive explosion, to boot.
>
more likely: a massive explosion leaving behind a pair of smoking boots...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 09:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 08:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAGEIOCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3CBEE39B.6060103@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Bruce and Doug complain about their lack of superpowers
> <snip>
> 
> How do you think I feel?  I've straddled many a
> thermonuclear warhead, in the forlorn hopes that
> something would happen (super mutant children, for
> one).
> 
> Nothing!

Well did you wave your hat around and yell 'Yeee Haaa!' ???



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 09:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 18 08:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418055518.00a9a050@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 06:43:42AM -0400
References: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020418055518.00a9a050@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020418091957.A21336@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 06:43:42AM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> I think the Dodge City reference is usually more apt than the Heinlein 
> reference.  In other words, I'm thinking that territories of the United 
> States before they became states, during the 1800s, are very instructive 
> about the behavior of people when there's no law present.

Not just that, but large numbers of young men and very few women.  In
fact, ISTR a Scientific American article some years back examining
just that subject.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I don't want to achieve immortality through my work.  I want to achieve
it by not dying.                                          --Woody Allen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 09:55:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 08:55:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020417200008.009f3500@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418084245.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>

At 08:07 PM 4/17/02 -0600, you wrote:

>         Didn't you get the Control Penguins Power?  I thought you had, or 
> maybe it was the Penguin Projection Power .  No, wait, isn't that the 
> Bits project, Penguin Projection?  Geez, now I'm really confused. :)

Maybe I do cloud the minds of mortal men..

>         By the way, I just got my copy of ACQ.  You have been added to 
> the list of games I will buy just because of the author's demonstrated 
> competance.

Wow. Thank you, and hope you enjoy shooting things with glee.  Just 
remember one rule. Never spend more than half you APP in your round, unless 
you are ambushing someone. Always leave enough to react to the other guy's 
move.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:17:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:17:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330106b8e3cd72c219@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019146600.6212.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:
> 
> Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that 
> gets powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an 
> "accident", so maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but 
> whether it was "accidental".  :-)

Nah, it can be 'test subject'.  Captain America, for example.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Charge accumulation
Message-ID: <200204181629.EMH01314@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I remember when doing sling loads with helicopters, that 
before you attach the sling, you have to ground the hovering 
helicopter.  If you don't, you can get a shock powerful 
enough to throw you to the ground.  It's an accumulation of 
static by the rotor blades moving through the air.  Rather 
like a Van de Graff device.  You can also see the rotor tips 
glowing from this charge at night, especially using night 
vision.

Well, in Traveller, we're in a metal ship. We are constantly 
being bombarded by ions flowing from the nearby star.  Does 
our ship accumulate any charge?  If you park two ships near 
each other, is there a charge differential?  Is it 
significant?  If I touched both of the ships at the same 
time, would the charge difference want to flow through me?

Do engines such as HEPLAR exacerbate this charge difference 
by pushing charged material away from the ship?

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEHICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>
>
>Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to
>enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?

If the Imperium allows its members to go to war with one another, it
certainly does not require them to enforce each others' judgments.

Whether a world will enforce a judgment rendered on another world depends on
various factors:  does a treaty between the worlds govern the issue? if not,
do standards of comity apply? what is the current political situation
between the worlds?  There is plenty of work for lawyers in a system as
complex as the Imperium.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:42:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:42:49 2002
Subject: ret: [TML] New Filk
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHJCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I put this up on my Live Journal, but it didn't get much response there, so
>I'd thought I'd post it here.
>
>Flaming Eye

Common brigands seek interstellar support by recasting themselves as racial
freedom fighters -- I like it!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204181647.EMH04030@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson asks
>
>Well did you wave your hat around and yell 'Yeee Haaa!' ???
>
Indeed.

There are many opportunities to relive moments from various 
movies when you are in a nuclear missile unit.

One interesting thing:  I ended up writing a bit of software 
to keep track of the status of the battalion's missiles 
(which ones were away, counting, etc.).  The various platoons 
would report their status via the program over radio modem 
rather than by voice.  In the requirements, they wanted to 
know time of flight, but didn't care about time of impact.

I put it in anyway.  During one exercise, the officers were 
crowded around in the BCC, drinking coffee after the count, 
and I interrupted the festivities by announcing, "<name of 
city>, impact in 5.. 4... 3... 2.."  Everyone was very upset, 
as they didn't even want to think about what happens after 
they succeed in launching.

Never, ever sign someone up as an infantryman, and then tell 
him halfway through his term that "because you were a 
programmer in civilian life, we're going to make you one 
here, because we're short programmers.  We don't know who 
assigned you here, but we've no use for you otherwise.".

The consolation prize was that when not writing programs, I 
had the keys to the arms room.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Charge accumulation
In-Reply-To: <200204181629.EMH01314@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019148621.4086.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> Well, in Traveller, we're in a metal ship. We are constantly 
> being bombarded by ions flowing from the nearby star.  Does 
> our ship accumulate any charge?

Probably.

> If you park two ships near each other, is there a charge differential?
> Is it significant?  If I touched both of the ships at the same 
> time, would the charge difference want to flow through me?

Once grounded, any charge should dissipate fairly rapidly.
> 
> Do engines such as HEPLAR exacerbate this charge difference 
> by pushing charged material away from the ship?

No, it seems to eject plasma, with a probable net charge of zero.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204180015090.24858-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020417010106.E5149279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418125300.0228bff0@mail.qrc.com>

At 06:28 PM 4/17/2002, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>Do you mean 9,000 systems rather than the 10,000 there's supposed to be?
>IIRC the figures are 11,000 worlds in 10,000 systems

Back in the day, my analysis of the old sector data files found about 
10,500 worlds coded Imperial (or for imperial cultural regions), so that's 
what my Imperial GNP figure was based on.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 10:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Charge accumulation
In-Reply-To: <200204181629.EMH01314@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418095458.009eb9c0@mindspring.com>

At 12:29 PM 4/18/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I remember when doing sling loads with helicopters, that
>before you attach the sling, you have to ground the hovering
>helicopter.  If you don't, you can get a shock powerful
>enough to throw you to the ground.  It's an accumulation of
>static by the rotor blades moving through the air.  Rather
>like a Van de Graff device.  You can also see the rotor tips
>glowing from this charge at night, especially using night
>vision.

I learned that you had better check this for yourself rather than trust the 
new guy to actually have done this.  If I had hair, it would have been 
standing on end.  As it was, I had a nasty burn on my foot where the charge 
exited my body and an irregular heartbeat for several hours, enough to get 
me a free helicopter ride out of East Rain.

>Well, in Traveller, we're in a metal ship. We are constantly
>being bombarded by ions flowing from the nearby star.  Does
>our ship accumulate any charge?  If you park two ships near
>each other, is there a charge differential?  Is it
>significant?  If I touched both of the ships at the same
>time, would the charge difference want to flow through me?

SOM had ships with probes to allow discharge of accumulated charges, and to 
attract lightning bolts during wilderness refueling.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 11:05:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 10:05:17 2002
Subject: ret: [TML] New Filk
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHJCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418095901.009f31b0@mindspring.com>

At 09:35 AM 4/18/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> >
> >I put this up on my Live Journal, but it didn't get much response there, so
> >I'd thought I'd post it here.
> >
> >Flaming Eye
>
>Common brigands seek interstellar support by recasting themselves as racial
>freedom fighters -- I like it!

(Takes bow)

I got the inspiration while reading a book about Anne Bonney and Mary Read 
at the same time as a book about the mythical Werewolf units, SS troops 
that were supposed to start a guerilla war against the Allies. It struck me 
that some Vilani would refuse to surrender, and go pirate.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Thu Apr 18 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Some Info...
Message-ID: <OF98BD72DE.DB3A42D5-ON85256B9F.005EA550@pheaa.org>

do we have any Aeronautical Engineers on the list?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 12:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Thu Apr 18 11:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Some Info...
References: <OF98BD72DE.DB3A42D5-ON85256B9F.005EA550@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBF16E6.327D72C5@virgin.net>

William Lane wrote:

> do we have any Aeronautical Engineers on the list?
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Yes.  Me!

Si

And there is one other i believe.

:-)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 13:58:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 12:58:24 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020418082212.A31848@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20418.115507.2p7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?
> ...
>> You want it because you were making such a fuss about not being able
>> to use oxygen to convert methane to water and CO2 because you'd lose
>> the oxygen if you threw away the CO2.
>
> I did.  That doesn't mean I want to have a special LOX tank just in
> case I can find hydrogen but not water.  Most of the time I'm going to
> be buying water from the starport I'm docked at.  Most of the rest of
> the time, I'll be getting it from iceballs or seas.  That's much safer
> than gas giant skimming, if nothing else.  In a desperate situation, I
> *might* come across a system that has a gas giant but no water.  (The
> only plausible cases I can think of involve a gas giant inside the
> star's 100D limit) In that case I can still skim hydrogen gas and
> process it into the LHyd tank for a 1-parsec jump.  If there is any
> water in the GG atmosphere (likely if there is no water elsewhere), I
> can collect that too, diffuse though it may be.

At reasonable altitudes that water is going to be *really* scarce.

>> Only at the cost of *not* being able to refuel by scopping at a gas
>> giant. The atmosphere is 90%+ hydrogen.
>
> That just means you need to spend a bit longer scooping for the other
> stuff, a time which in itself is relatively minor compared to the time
> taken to get to and from a gas giant's 100D limit.  But why perform
> that dangerous maneuver at all when you've got almost always got
> lovely little microgravity water sources nowhere near so deep into a
> 100D limit?

Don't ask me. The rules seem to think it's a good idea. :-)

>> No, but you can't use the water for drinking,
>
> I can after I remove the ammonia.

>> and it needs special handling as ammonia water is corrosive.
>
> Scary.  You were talking about hundreds of tons of cryogenic LH2.
> Ever looked up the MSDS for that?

You are stuck handling the stuff anyway. The difference between
"minimal" tankage for it, and storing all your fuel that way isn't
going to change the hazards all that much.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 13:59:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 12:59:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEEDDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20418.120147.7F3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> >> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
>> >> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were 
>> "boiled" off.
>> >
>> > Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
>> > a nitpick.
>> 
>> I was going by the figures in the post I was responding to, which had a
>> higher density listed for Mercury.
>
> No, they didn't. I quoted 5.43 for Mercury, 5.52 for Earth.

The *original* post (not yours) quoted 5.56 for Mercury.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:00:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:00:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417165617.00a9ea90@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <20418.120339.3g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
>>that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
>>An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
>>perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
>>planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
>>come up eventually.
>
> There is a simple way to make planets more dense without changing the basic 
> composition. Bigger terrestrial worlds will have higher density because of 
> compression, which is far more effective for bigger bodies. Just adding 
> more rock will make the rock more dense.
>
> Earth has a compressed density higher than Mercury, but the uncompressed 
> density is considerably less. If a planet had the composition of Mercury 
> and the radius of Earth, which potentially could happen in an decently 
> iron-rich inner system with a major collision between two large rocky 
> worlds, that planet would have even greater density than Mercury has, say, 
> somewhere between 6 and 6.5. If a world with the composition of Earth is 
> 50% greater in radius it also would likely have higher density than Earth.

On the other hand, unless that collision happened *really* late in the
formation of the system, such a plent would tend to collect a lot more
gas and other stuff, and possibly wind up as a mini-GG.

Above a certain point, you get runaway accumulation of material, which
results in a gas giant of some sort.

*Where* that point is is subject to a lot of debate as we don't have
enough of a sample set to draw the line except *very* broadly. 

Also, that major collision is just as apt to scatter pieces of those
rocky world halfway across the system.

> On the other hand, if we think of an Earth-size world with the composition 
> of Mars, it would still have a density of say, 4.5 to 5. I'd argue a more 
> common problem in RPGs is that densities for Earth-like worlds are too low. 
> (Big world with low density to generate decent gravity-style.)

I haven't noticed that much.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:01:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:01:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20418.120911.8p9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hi
>
>> Also, the post I was replying to had the wrong density for Mercury, and
>> had it being denser than earth. I didn't check my references until
>> someone pointed out the error.
>
> You were replying to my post, and the densities were correct there.

No. The posts where I referred Mercury being denser were replies to a
post that had Mercury being denser than earth.

Check the levels of quotes. 

> BTW, as an aside, Red Dwarfs display similar relative elemental abundances
> to the Sun, but are many , many times denser.

Yes, but that's due to factors that don't apply to *planets* to any
great extent.

>> Work out the field strength at 100 diameters for size 1 thru 10 planets
>> assuming densities similar to that of earth or even Mars. The figures
>> are *way* off.
>
> Now try the same with tidal forces where the Mars size planet has a density
> equal to that of Mars, and the Earth sized planet has a density equal to
> that of the Earth. Do you get the same answer ? No.

Yes, but you apparently missed the part that shows that to make the
inverse-square forces come out anywhere near equal at 100 diameters,
the *smaller* world has to be the denser one. Having it be less dense
makes the mismatch *worse*.

This is exactly the *opposite* of your example.

With equal densities, the inverse-square forces at 100 diameters is
greater for larger worlds in direct proportion to the ratio of the
diameters of the worlds. 

So, assuming that the forces are in direct proportion to the mass of
the planet, to get them to match at 100 diameters, the density of the
larger world must be lower. 

Since this is the exact oposite of the situation for "typical" (in
Traveller) "worlds" (ie what gets generated as mainworlds and non-GG,
non-asteroid/cometary halo bodies) invoking density differences as
a reason to prefer inverse square forces (acceleration due to gravity,
"slope" of the gravity well, etc) over inverse cube forces (tidal
acceleration, curvature of space, etc) is silly.

> This only works if all
> of the 10 worlds in your calculation have the same density, which makes no
> sense.

But that's what the rules *explicitly* state in the first three books.

It's also a good way to make a first cut at analyzing the problem. Vary
*one* property and see what happens in your calculations. This lets you
eliminate the obviously wrong hypotheses (such as "jump limits are
based on inverse square forces"). Then you add in other variables (such
as density) and see what you get.

It's not that different than starting out by calculating Earth's
gravity as if the planet was a perfect sphere of uniform density. A
simplification to get first order results to compare to your data.

> Better to define jump limits in terms of field strengths, tidal force
> values, etc, than a distance/number of diameters. Sure the distance will
> vary, but the rule is then usable in all situations and is more internally
> consistent.

Which is what I advocate. So why are you objecting?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:02:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:02:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEICCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20418.122806.4f6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Pions can be created by the collision of matter and antimatter.
> The creation time can be tightly controlled.  So the start point
> for acceleration to relativistic speeds is therefore controlled.
>
> It requires far less handwaving than that required for plasma/fusion
> weapons.

Slight problem. You *can't* control the direction the created pions are
moving in. Nor the velocity. All you can say is that the vector sum of
the momenta of the pions will equal that of the original
proton/anti-proton pair. 

And neutral pions can't be affected by electric or magnetic fields,
making focusing them more than a little difficult.

Artifically generated gravity would solve this. Alas, it requires field
strengths that can't be generated in Traveller. Or if they *can*,
they'd make various other things possible that we don't see.

Then again, the same is true of the "grav-focusing" of lasers. 

> Neither of the latter can produce a "bolt" of plasma that
> can fly downrange, in air or in vacuum.  No guide beams, etc, 
> are going to help.

True enough. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:03:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:03:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Timothy Little says
>>They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half 
>>of the original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has 
>>elapsed, 1/4 decay in the next half-life period, 1/8 in the 
>>half-life after that, etc.
>
> then it's not possible to accelerate *any* mesons at all, 
> given their half-life.  Almost all of them would be gone 
> before they got to the end of the accelerator.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

> Please contact Los Alamos and inform them that the meson 
> accelerator that they have been using since 1968 is a fake.  
> It sends beams of mesons out without irradiating the 
> accelerator.  The only items that become "hot" are in the 
> target area.  Please explain how that is done.

Maybe you need to check out *how* the mesons are created. Usually, it's
done by bombarding a target with a more stable particle (such as
protons or heavy ions) which gives a shower of mesons that are already
moving at relativistic velocities. Then those are fed into a
second-stage accelerator which "loses" non-mesons as the accelerating
fields are varying at the wrong rate for particles with a different
charge to mass ratio.

Or they may use other techniques.

Thing is, what we've been saying about half-lives *is* correct. The
existence of the accelerator doesn't change that. It merely means that
some of *your* assumptions about how it operates are incorrect.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204182026.EMP00817@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

It would seem that the effects of the LAMPF facility's beam 
is lethal enough at 800 MeV, and they plan to raise it to 
80GeV.  

Even without the magical meson effects, the mesons they 
accelerate seem to be able to do enough damage as it is.  
They also seem to be able to accelerate protons, and produce 
neutron beams.  A neutron beam, to me, would seem ideal.  You 
would permanently irradiate the target, etc.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204182026.EMP00817@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019163077.9084.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> It would seem that the effects of the LAMPF facility's beam 
> is lethal enough at 800 MeV, and they plan to raise it to 
> 80GeV. 

Shrug.  Lethal for what?  Large quantities of radiation are bad for things. 
> 
> Even without the magical meson effects, the mesons they 
> accelerate seem to be able to do enough damage as it is. 

Sure, but we call this a 'Particle Accelerator'.  A meson beam has fairly
typical PAW effects.
 
> They also seem to be able to accelerate protons, and produce 
> neutron beams.  A neutron beam, to me, would seem ideal.  You 
> would permanently irradiate the target, etc.

Actually, at high energies just about any type of beam will induce radiation in
the target, since it will tend to blow nuclei apart.  In fact, by around 1 GEv
there's no particular difference in penetration between any particles that
interact via the strong force (including pions, neutrons, protons, and the
relevant antiparticles); in all cases penetration is comparable to cosmic rays,
with a typical penetration of 50-100 grams/cm^2 before the first collision
(this results in a cascade effect as new particles are created; the continued
penetration of the cascade depends on the energy level of the particles, but
500 grams/cm^2 is suitable for 90+% shielding against multi-GEv primary cosmic
rays).

Since meson guns are less affected by armor than conventional particle beams
(which are probably proton accelerators) there must be some special particle
involved.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204182056.EMP04739@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

80 GeV sounds like a weapon.

So you're saying at this power level, there's no difference 
in penetration for protons, neutrons, etc.?

Would a stream of positrons be any worse for the target?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 15:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 14:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEHLCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>
>
>Anthony Jackson said
>
> > >No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
[quotation deleted]
> > I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home
[deletion]
>Nah, if the defendant has a local office (sales outlet, whatever) you can
>sue the local unit.
>
>If the defendant is big and has a local offices sure.  You can play games
>with that though, like having every local office as a separate corporation.
>Because the LIC is granted by the Imperium, local courts probably can not
>break through the corporate veil.

Whatever the answer, it's clear that the Far Future will be a paradise for
lawyers.  Cha-ching!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 15:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 14:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204182056.EMP04739@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019164377.5758.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 80 GeV sounds like a weapon.

Depends how many particles you have.  80 GEv is a respectable weapon if you
have 10^15 particles or so (total energy ~13 MJ)
> 
> So you're saying at this power level, there's no difference 
> in penetration for protons, neutrons, etc.?

Pretty much.
> 
> Would a stream of positrons be any worse for the target?

Lower penetration, actually.  Best choice for penetration would be muons (for a
neutral beam, perhaps muonium, which is an 'atom' formed by an electron and an
anti-muon, or a positron and a muon)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 15:53:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr 18 14:53:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019146600.6212.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1019146600.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8e4f059a959@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:16 AM -0700 4/18/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>>
>>  Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that
>>  gets powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an
>>  "accident", so maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but
>>  whether it was "accidental".  :-)
>
>Nah, it can be 'test subject'.  Captain America, for example.

OK, so maybe you get super powers if you are exposed to "accidental" 
or "untested" levels.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 17:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 16:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
Message-ID: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>

Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable whatever it is that 
makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML coding? I tried a quoted message and it 
ended up an unholy mess.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 17:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 16:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
Message-ID: <621638DD.3A102E03.02280B06@aol.com>

GDWGAMES@aol.com writes:
> Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable 
> whatever it is that makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML 
> coding? I tried a quoted message and it ended up an unholy 
> mess.

I don't know if you *can* turn off the HTML coding. Gotta
be able to use those cutesy little smileys and special fonts,
after all.

Meanwhile, since at least 6.0 the standard Internet-style
quoting (with the '>' marks) no longer works. I now copy
the text I want to quote to the clipboard, then hand-edit
the '>' marks into the quoted block. Annoying, but the
result is at least clean and readable to multiple email
clients.

---
Jon



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20418.120911.8p9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEGHDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi

> Yes, but that's due to factors that don't apply to *planets* to any
> great extent.

True, but it was an example of relative abundance being irrelevant to
density, and as such it still stands.

> Yes, but you apparently missed the part that shows that to make the
> inverse-square forces come out anywhere near equal at 100 diameters,
> the *smaller* world has to be the denser one. Having it be less dense
> makes the mismatch *worse*.

I'm not trying to make anything work at 100 diameters. I'm pointing out the
flaw in your insistence of using 100 diameters. Also, my point was that the
densities would be different, so the tidal force argument doesn't work
either. 100D is an arbitrary rule, period. There is no magic formula unless
you cook the books.

> But that's what the rules *explicitly* state in the first three books.

Lots of stuff in the three LBBs has been superceded. Do you really still
generate worlds with just the basic rules ? Or do you use the World
Builder's Handbook, or Book 6, or First In ? If you do, you'll find that
density is not uniform.

> Which is what I advocate. So why are you objecting?

My original post in this thread was to do with the maximum mass for a
starship before its own gravitational field caused a misjump, a logical
extension of the existing canon background. I seem to remember you corrected
me and told me that tidal forces must be the reason for the 100 diameter
rule, which then reduced the maximum mass and/or density of a starship
before a misjump occurred to smaller than a Type S Scout. I'd disagree with
the latter consequence as it is inconsistent with the background.

Anyhow, we're arguing over nothing. Let's call it a day. IYTU, do as you
will shall be the whole of the law.

Regards

Andy Brick










---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 17/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20418.143129.3R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> My courts apply the same burden of proof in both civil and criminal
> cases, in my case "on the balance of probabilities" rather than
> "beyond reasonable doubt". Juries are not a recognised concept and
> instead panels of nobles ranging from one to the entire moot,
> depending on the case, make decisions after hearing argument. It does
> not take a genius to work out that the system is highly open to abuse.

Problem is, "beyond reasonable doubt" and "jury of your peers" *both*
came about because of abuses.

Jury of peers dates back to the Magna Carta and was put there by
*nobles who were upset about abuses by the king. And note that "jury of
your peers" basicly means nobles would get tried by nobles.... <eg>
I can't see a stable Imperium *not* having something like that. At
least at some levels. 

And if you define "peers" properly, it works with both "government of
men, not laws" and nobles having "extra" priveleges.

the beyond reasonable doubt bit is also apt to develop if only because
convicting innocent people tends to get their friends and relatives
upset with the government. 

And if someone is a vassal of a noble, the noble is going to insist on
stronger evidence as well.

On the other hand, we have (at least) two different system to draw
from. In the "French" system, the "proving" of guilt is relegated to
the "police" side of things. It's (supposed to be) harder to file
charges without a lot of proof. But once filed, you have to prove
yourself innocent.

The "English" system has the filing of charges be much simpler, but
then at trial (supposedly) they have to prove you guilty. 

I suspect that there are other systems to be found in history. 

Local governments should be pretty free to have laws that don't
conflict with Imperial interests. And to be as "just" or "unjust" as
they care to be, as long as it's (theoretically) possible for people to
leave.

Commercial laws may actually be more uniform, simply because the
Imperium is an empire based on "free" trade. Which means it pretty much
requires the laws covering contracts and the like to be uniform. 

What sort of contracts are legal may vary from world to world. But the
rules on drawing them up, enforcing them, and assigning liability for
failures will be fairly standard.

The *penalties* on the other hand... <eg>

So while the decision as to the validity of a contract and whether or
not one party has failed in carrying out there part might be much the
same on the homeworld of each party, the legality of the good or
service contracted for may vary greatly. As may the consequences of
failure to carry out the contract.

On world A, defaulting may merely involve either "best effort" to
correct the failure with financial liability up to the value of the
good/service or the bankruptcy limit (whichever is smaller), on world B
defaulting may result in becoming an indentured servant of the other
party until you can make good the loss. and on world C the damaged
party may be able to opt to have you tortured or even put to death,
with a scale set up based on the magnitude of the loss. 

So which world's law governs could be *really* important. And the PCs
who don't check into the details could really regret it. <g>

> There is no real distinction between civil and criminal law at the Imperial 
> level. Instead all cases are treated in the same way and dealt with through 
> the same channels. The main difference is that in some cases precedent holds 
> that the court should appoint Imperial investigators to gather evidence. In 
> other cases the burden of investigation lies entirely with the litigant. 

Aside from Imperial crimes, most "Imperial" level litigation will be
civil anyway. Salvage cases, contracts that get appealed (not many
will, unless the situation is either complicated or the parties to the
contract specified that Imperial courts would be used to resolve
problems), etc.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:25:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:25:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F18T2Y89RdrUnR65Cbk00002a25@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20418.145258.6Y3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
>>Sam D writes:
>> > Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to
>> > enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign 
>>judgments?
>>
>>No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
>>difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in 
>>state
>>courts work.
>
> I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home turf, 
> because that is the only place you can collect.  That should discourage 
> litigation, and make a lot of lawyers rich with asset protection seminars.  
> Maybe some worlds would become big Switzerlands where the wealthy hide their 
> dough.
>
> So I guess you would sue free traders where there ship is registered, 
> because that is where title would be?  Then how do you actually get 
> possession if other worlds are free to ignore the judgments of other worlds?

That's *why* the Imperium pretty much *has* to enforce some sort of
rules about contract laws when more than one world/government is
involved. Otherwise trade becomes much harder to carry on. And that's
not good for the Imperium.

Civil cases that don't affect interworld trade and criminal cases that
don't violate the few Imperial "criminal" laws will only get dealt with
if some noble with jurisdiction (ie a noble from an involved planet, a
susector level noble from the subsector the dispute is in, etc) decides
to get involved.

So, if you can get a noble from your planet involved, you may get some
action. But only if he can get the noble in charge of the other planet
interested in discussing it with him.

Better is if the worlds are in the same sub-sector and you can
get a subsector-level noble involved as he has authority over both
worlds. If they are in different subsectors, but the same sector, then
you need to get a sector level noble interested. 

If they are in different sectors but the same domain, then you may need
the Archduke to get involved. And if they are in different domains,
you'll have to appeal to the Emperor. 

And if you are dealing between the Imperium and some other interstellar
polity, it could get *really* ugly.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:25:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:25:41 2002
Subject: [TML] The L-E Digest?
In-Reply-To: <F82qi8VjUwZcSlVviFl0000bd6b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20418.163302.7i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In mail, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) asked:
>
>>Nah, if everyone who goofed did that who'd be posting? :-)
>
> <tongue-in-cheek>
> Um, just you?
> </tongue-in-cheek>

Excuse me? I'm far from infallible. As should be obvious from a few
recent posts.... :-(

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <007901c1e739$fb4c0560$9bb18b90@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm
> going to sue somebody.

It could be worse.  Have you seen the (very fine) movie 'Mystery Men'?  You
could have become The Spleen.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBF6B82.9FD041AE@mailbag.com>

> From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
>
> Heinlein is often invoked in the science fiction world as an example of
> libertarian principles at work.  I don't know how many have read his story
> 'Coventry', which was set inside a huge area cordoned off by the U.S. and
> completely without laws.  Citizens of the U.S. who broke the law were
> banished to Coventry to live among the other people who felt they didn't
> need the law.  Contrary to the expectations of the rugged individualist who
> starts the story about to enter Coventry, the people inside Coventry
> evolved their own law, but one that was imposed by the biggest sharks in
> the pool and not so kind and gentle as the law they had just left
> behind.  This was Heinlein's story that most directly addressed the issue,
> and with writer as judge of the conflict between different poliltical
> systems, he clearly found in favor of the democratic one and against the
> libertarian one.

Thank you for remembering this. I knew there was a quite well written
refutation in his work but I had forgotten the name. 

As a fairly hard lefty (hey I am a member of the DSA.
http://www.dsausa.org if you don't know them. Keep in mind that I keep
that link  in my religion folder... ;') I had a difficult time
understanding some of his works when I was a teen. The way "Coventry" is
written makes it very clear that a democracy that passes things against
his ideals is a better place to him than a tyrany that is exactly in
line with his thought. It's also useful to understand that one can
respect while disagreeing. 

 I've learned alot from his books - and even more after I did 16 years
in the US Army/National Guard/Army Reserve. OTOH, it's fun sometimes to
be the token lefty... 

William
-- 
You better watch out    What you wish for;
It better be worth it   So much to die for.
                                Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 18 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20418.143129.3R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>; from shadow@krypton.rain.com on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 02:31:29PM -0800
References: <cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84@aol.com> <20418.143129.3R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020418190201.A22643@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 02:31:29PM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> Jury of peers dates back to the Magna Carta and was put there by
> nobles who were upset about abuses by the king.  And note that "jury
> of your peers" basicly means nobles would get tried by nobles....

And commoners by commoners.  I believe it was Blackstone who commented
that all this ties into the presumption of innocence, fair trial,
burden of proof on the prosecution complex.  The idea being that
commoners are more likely to favour their own, and nobility their own,
and thus that things are slanted in favour of the defendant.  Which is
a Good Thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron--more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to mankind.
                              --Mirelle Stein, The Productive Class

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 19:04:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 18 18:04:37 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>; from GDWGAMES@aol.com on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 07:30:44PM -0400
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020418190346.B22643@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 07:30:44PM -0400, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>
> Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable whatever it
> is that makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML coding? I tried a
> quoted message and it ended up an unholy mess.

Does AOL offer SMTP and (POP3 or IMAP) to its subscribers?  If so, you
can use any mail client you wish.  I understand that Mozilla's is very
good, for those who like GUI clients.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A PC without windows is like a chocolate cake without mustard.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Thu Apr 18 18:08:02 2002
Subject: Officer Candidates (was Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets)
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBF6DB5.E1C86E36@mailbag.com>

> From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
>   I'm almost of the opinion that
> > officers
> > > should be enlisted first

I've long felt that not only should prior service be required, but that
promotion to E-5 be required before acceptance into any officer training
program. This, essentially, requires that the gentle serves at least one
term as a grunt first. I've seen some who took the OCS test in the
middle of basic who weren't any better than the ROTC things that we
occasionally got stuck with. OTOH, pointers were far worse...  
 
As a soldier and as a sergeant, I always respected the mavericks far
more - if they gave you a shit detail they had probably shoveled the
same shit at some point. Unlike any of the rest.

William
-- 
You better watch out    What you wish for;
It better be worth it   So much to die for.
                                Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:08:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:08:11 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20418.214954.3L6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable whatever it
> is that makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML coding? I tried a
> quoted message and it ended up an unholy mess.

	http://expita.com/nomime.html


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:12:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:12:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a@aol.com>

--part1_21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always had trouble with 
the idea of a line of seperately-designed launchers being required to fire 
"sand", so I decided to just do away with them IMTU; allowing the typical 
missile launcher to fire several different types of munitions; with "sand" 
being used in its usual role as a screen to counter incoming missiles or 
energy beam fire, as well as it acting as a fairly effective antipersonnel 
weapon (Striker, bk2).
  -Ken Murphy-
  
   
   
   

--part1_21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always had trouble with the idea of a line of seperately-designed launchers being required to fire "sand", so I decided to just do away with them IMTU; allowing the typical missile launcher to fire several different types of munitions; with "sand" being used in its usual role as a screen to counter incoming missiles or energy beam fire, as well as it acting as a fairly effective antipersonnel weapon (Striker, bk2).
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR> &nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:17:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:17:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
Message-ID: <200204190140.EMZ01428@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was just looking at something called Electric Tokamak, and 
I noticed that in one of the pictures, they were using 
hydrogen plasma, and in a few others, helium plasma.  I 
thought that this was strange, since no machine built yet 
achieves a high beta (high enough to break even, that is).

In their "introduction" section, they talk about the machine 
being able to use "low-neutron yield fusion fuels" in the 
future with this design.

It makes me think that their intent in the end is to use 
helium rather than hydrogen.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:19:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:19:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Could some kind soul please contact me off-List with some links to 
sites that list various combat formation TO&Es?  I've tried Google until my 
eyes crossed with no avail.  As you all well know, I'm not the sharpest tool 
in the shed and my surfing abilities suffer as a consequence.
     The recent TML thread discussing unit TO&Es and the well deserved 
praise for Mr. Berry's accomplishments regarding them in GT:GF gave me cause 
to flush all the unit descriptions in my "Dirty Little War" project.
     Specifically, I'm interested in TO&Es from the turn of the last 
century, say the 1905/Russo-Japanese War to 1918/Great War range.  This 
implies large squad automatic weapons, clunky AFVs, and early combat 
aircraft.
     Thank you.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:21:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:21:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <007901c1e739$fb4c0560$9bb18b90@computer>
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418190001.009e85e0@mindspring.com>

At 10:34 AM 4/19/02 +1000, you wrote:
> > From: Douglas Berry
> > That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm
> > going to sue somebody.
>
>It could be worse.  Have you seen the (very fine) movie 'Mystery Men'?  You
>could have become The Spleen.

No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!

"Ah, the Disco Room!"


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:24:05 2002
Subject: Officer Candidates (was Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets)
In-Reply-To: <3CBF6DB5.E1C86E36@mailbag.com>
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418221746.020382a8@192.168.0.1>

At 08:07 PM 4/18/2002 -0500, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:
> > From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
> >   I'm almost of the opinion that
> > > officers
> > > > should be enlisted first
>I've long felt that not only should prior service be required, but that
>promotion to E-5 be required before acceptance into any officer training
>program. This, essentially, requires that the gentle serves at least one
>term as a grunt first. I've seen some who took the OCS test in the
>middle of basic who weren't any better than the ROTC things that we
>occasionally got stuck with. OTOH, pointers were far worse...
>As a soldier and as a sergeant, I always respected the mavericks far
>more - if they gave you a shit detail they had probably shoveled the
>same shit at some point. Unlike any of the rest.

Back when I was a young lad, dear old dad wanted my brother and I to go to 
West Point.

After his tour in scenic Southeast Asia, the tune changed to, "You boys 
wouldn't embarrass your father by going to a military academy."


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!
Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>

On Thursday 18 April 2002 21:37, you wrote:

> Maybe you need to check out *how* the mesons are created. Usually, it's
> done by bombarding a target with a more stable particle 

Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel" 
problems: Nuclear Damping Technology. Obviously this is used inside the 
barrel (And maybe for some distance outside it... remember, Nuclear Dampers 
work at some range... on the order of 30,000 KM. Meson Screens are obviously 
a special type of Nuclear Damper, specifically tuned to decay mesons. If you 
can do that, you can surely do the opposite: Prevent them from Decaying, or 
massively reduce their decay rate) in order to prevent your mesons from 
decaying too early. Mesons are obviously generated, en-masse, by nuclear 
damper style technology also, set up for very short range (i.e. meters, or 
centimeters) but extremely powerful and finely controlled damper-style 
fields. 

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
In-Reply-To: <200204190140.EMZ01428@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204190140.EMZ01428@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020419184155.A3066@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> It makes me think that their intent in the end is to use helium
> rather than hydrogen.

I would suspect that they intend to study any number of modes of
operation very thoroughly.  To me they seemed to be concentrating more
on pure hydrogen plasmas at the moment, but that would be because this
is meant to be a controlled experiment of their theoretical method,
not a commercial fusion operation.

I did notice a few hydrogen/helium runs, though.  We'll have to see
what the future holds when they see how well this mode of operation
conforms to theory.  :)


With these advances, it looks like large-scale commercial fusion power
is only about twenty years away!
;^>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>

Brian Caball wrote:
> Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel" 
> problems: Nuclear Damping Technology.

The only problem is, why doesn't a meson gun then function
automatically as a perfect meson screen?  If you can prevent your
mesons decaying over distances of up to millions of kilometres, why
can't you ensure that the other guy's mesons don't decay within a
range of twenty metres?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
Message-ID: <200204190855.BAA14300@ping.iii.com>

Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> writes:

>On Thursday 18 April 2002 21:37, you wrote:
>
>> Maybe you need to check out *how* the mesons are created. Usually, it's
>> done by bombarding a target with a more stable particle 
>
>Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel" 
>problems: Nuclear Damping Technology. Obviously this is used inside the 
>barrel (And maybe for some distance outside it... remember, Nuclear Dampers 
>work at some range... on the order of 30,000 KM. Meson Screens are obviously 
>a special type of Nuclear Damper, specifically tuned to decay mesons. If you 
>can do that, you can surely do the opposite: Prevent them from Decaying, or 
>massively reduce their decay rate) in order to prevent your mesons from 
>decaying too early. Mesons are obviously generated, en-masse, by nuclear 
>damper style technology also, set up for very short range (i.e. meters, or 
>centimeters) but extremely powerful and finely controlled damper-style 
>fields. 

True, nuclear dampers do imply a lot of bizarre manipulations of decay
rates that it's very difficult to explain in a way that wouldn't prove
instantly lethal to all life.  Considering that pions are the primary
exchange particle of the strong force, nuclear dampers would be expected
to influence them.

Doesn't help much with the problem of 'mesons aren't notably penetrating
particles'.  Of course, explaining how nuclear dampers don't change the
laws of physics in ways that are instantly fatal to life is also a trick.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
Message-ID: <200204190857.BAA28058@ping.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>I was just looking at something called Electric Tokamak, and 
>I noticed that in one of the pictures, they were using 
>hydrogen plasma, and in a few others, helium plasma.  I 
>thought that this was strange, since no machine built yet 
>achieves a high beta (high enough to break even, that is).
>
>In their "introduction" section, they talk about the machine 
>being able to use "low-neutron yield fusion fuels" in the 
>future with this design.
>
>It makes me think that their intent in the end is to use 
>helium rather than hydrogen.

It probably is.  D-He3 is the easiest of the low-neutron fusion fuels
to ignite.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 03:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Apr 19 02:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>

On Friday 19 April 2002 09:45, you wrote:
> Brian Caball wrote:
> > Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the
> > barrel" problems: Nuclear Damping Technology.
>
> The only problem is, why doesn't a meson gun then function
> automatically as a perfect meson screen?  If you can prevent your
> mesons decaying over distances of up to millions of kilometres, why
> can't you ensure that the other guy's mesons don't decay within a
> range of twenty metres?

It's probably set to a long thin beam... hence the range. the manufacturers 
probably also supply the shorter range, general purpose, multidirectional 
meson screens. 

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 03:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 02:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020419190352.C3066@freeman.little-possums.net>

>  If you can prevent your mesons decaying over distances of up to
> millions of kilometres, why can't you ensure that the other guy's
> mesons don't decay within a range of twenty metres?

I just thought of an even more extreme example: meson communicators
function across *billions* of kilometres.  They should make you
completely immune to meson weapons if they can prevent decay at that
range.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 03:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 02:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net> <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020419192132.A3299@freeman.little-possums.net>

Brian Caball wrote:
> It's probably set to a long thin beam... hence the range. the
> manufacturers probably also supply the shorter range, general
> purpose, multidirectional meson screens.

But then why are meson screens so expensive and not perfectly
effective?  They don't need anywhere near as much coverage as a
multi-million kilometre beam, even if it is thin.  Covering a mere
starship should be utterly trivial by comparison.

On the other side of the issue, altering the decay properties of
mesons means that you don't actually need to fire anything at the
target: mesons are fundamental to the processes that hold nuclei
together.  Tamper with them, and every nucleus bigger than hydrogen
alters its energy to an extent that makes fusion look "slightly warm".

Just wave your "meson damper" over the target, then shut down your
sensors and get behind a sandcaster cloud before the flash reaches
you.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 05:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 04:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
Message-ID: <200204191113.ENR03407@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>
>With these advances, it looks like large-scale commercial 
>fusion power is only about twenty years away!
>;^>
>

That's what they said back in the 1970s
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 05:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 04:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204191118.ENS00157@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>
>No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!
>
>"Ah, the Disco Room!"
>

I would be happy to be Invisible Boy
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 05:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 19 04:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Andy Akins Still Around?
Message-ID: <3CC003DA.D3F8EBBE@earthlink.net>

Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Akins?

I'm trying to contact him re: his T4 ship design spreadsheet
but the andyakins@earthlink.net address from his website
keeps bouncing email.

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 6:46, Daniel Tackett wrote:

>   I'm almost of the opinion that
> > officers 
> > > should be enlisted first
> Amen to that. Was it ever like that though?

Not that I know of.

 Does anybody know when it stopped if it was? And Why?

The modern system has its origins in Medieval Europe, with knights 
evolving into the aristocratic officer class, etc.

> I think it instills elitism in the wrong kind of
> people and the wrong kind of people are less likely to
> be patient enough for a couple of years as a grunt.

That's also my feeling.

> Not to say that we don't have some fine officers now,
> but they still need to know what it's like to be
> treated like a pawn in a chess game. I doubt this
> ideology would work well for pilots though.

Pilots are made into officers for reasons of tradition and there's no 
real reason for them to be, no matter what they might say on this.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <B8E429CE.4E9EA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC0B25F.15316.840B8C@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 7:44, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Just bear in mind that there is a reason for the distance between
> officers and enlisted (speaking as one who has been both).  As
> officers you will be required to give orders to your men that will
> result in their death or maiming.  You will know this before hand. 
> It requires a certain detachment (at least for non-sickos) to order
> men to their deaths. 

However also remember that a platoon sergeant (the position, not the 
rank) will also have to do this at some point, and he will always (in a 
western style army, anyway) have 'come up', and should be close to his 
men. Likewise a Section Commander/Squad Leader will be very close to 
his men (and probably was 'one of the men' only a year previous), and 
yet they have to order their squad into deadly situations all the time.
 
> I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that an officer should be
> required to be enlisted first.  It's hard to say.  I've seen both
> kinds of officers, some good and some bad.  I've seen people who came
> up through the ranks have a hard time maintaining 'distance' from
> their people. Also, the duties of the two groups are very different. 

However the split between 'admin' (NCOs) and 'command' (officers) 
starts at the squad leader - 2IC level, and they're both NCOs.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418084245.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20020417200008.009f3500@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <3CC0B2AB.3922.85344E@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 8:44, Douglas Berry wrote:

> Wow. Thank you, and hope you enjoy shooting things with glee.  Just
> remember one rule. Never spend more than half you APP in your round,
> unless you are ambushing someone. Always leave enough to react to
> the other guy's move. 

I thought the rule was "Always ensure you're outside the ambush, firing 
in."

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:25:02 2002
Subject: Officer Candidates (was Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets)
In-Reply-To: <3CBF6DB5.E1C86E36@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <3CC0B556.15473.8FA124@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 20:07, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:

> I've long felt that not only should prior service be required, but that
> promotion to E-5 be required before acceptance into any officer training
> program. This, essentially, requires that the gentle serves at least one
> term as a grunt first. I've seen some who took the OCS test in the
> middle of basic who weren't any better than the ROTC things that we
> occasionally got stuck with. OTOH, pointers were far worse...  

I don't think I'd go so far as to require getting to E-5. What makes a 
good NCO isn't always the same thing that makes a good officer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020419125210.3554.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I want my money (along with my spleen) back.


Chalk up another virtual Keyboard kill to Doug.  I,
like others, have learned not to drink at the
computer, at least for this list.  And, yes, I may be
a day behind, but I got yesterday's project finished
before quitting time.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 09:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419192132.A3299@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
 <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
 <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419111058.040af780@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:21 AM 4/19/2002, Timothy Little wrote:
>Brian Caball wrote:
> > It's probably set to a long thin beam... hence the range.
>
>But then why are meson screens so expensive and not perfectly effective?
>On the other side of the issue, altering the decay properties of mesons 
>means that you don't actually need to fire anything at the target [...] 
>Tamper with them, and every nucleus bigger than hydrogen alters its energy 
>to an extent that makes fusion look "slightly warm".

Here's a non-canon, but possibly workable suggestion for you: what if a 
"meson gun" is basically a "laser" for the whatever-it-is that makes meson 
screens (presumably some variant of damper technology) work.  In this case, 
it's tuned to affect mesons so that the field causes a release of energy 
and radiation as atoms in the target break down.

Let's further postulate the following, for no particularly good reason than 
they make the "meson gun" work similarly to the way it is described in the 
Traveller canon:

- The weapon beam is laser-like, so that it is reasonably small and can 
affect targets at a great distance, but must be focused or tuned for 
maximum effect at a specific range.  Lower power beams are much easier to 
focus and control than high-powered ones, so that meson communicators can 
have a greater range than meson weapons.

- For whatever reason, only a tiny fraction of the atoms in the focus point 
of the beam are affected enough so that they break down. The higher the 
power of the beam, the greater the percentage of atoms that break down and 
the larger the release of energy.

- The breakdown of atoms in the beam is significantly enhanced by supplying 
radiation to "kick off" a chain reaction.  Therefore, weapons-grade meson 
guns fire some type of particle beam at the target as well.

- Meson screens interfere with the ability of the meson gun beam to cause 
atoms to break down.  This is not an "all-or-nothing" proposition; the 
screen interferes with but does not block the weapon beam, protecting the 
ship to a greater or lesser degree.

The canon Traveller explanation of how a meson gun works can then be 
thought of as a simplified explanation (similar to what you would get if 
you asked a present-day layman for an explanation of the sun's energy 
source), or a deliberate obfuscation on the part of the high-tech 
polities.  The net result is the same: the "conventional wisdom" describes 
the net effect of a meson gun beam relatively accurately, but misrepresents 
the underlying physics.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 09:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Andy Akins Still Around?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C365E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Try andy@leonidae.org.  I was in touch with him in March at that address.
Jesse
 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Smart [mailto:jurrubin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 4:48 AM
To: TML List
Subject: [TML] Andy Akins Still Around?


Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Akins?

I'm trying to contact him re: his T4 ship design spreadsheet
but the andyakins@earthlink.net address from his website
keeps bouncing email.

David Smart
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 09:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <20020418190346.B22643@4dv.net>
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
 <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net>

>Does AOL offer SMTP and (POP3 or IMAP) to its subscribers?  If so, you
>can use any mail client you wish.  I understand that Mozilla's is very
>good, for those who like GUI clients.

Not last I heard.  There was an alpha test of that using employees only a 
couple or three years ago and it wandered into a swamp and never came 
out.  Which is just as well, from AOL's point of view, since it was _only_ 
being made compliant with Micro$oft Outlook and was just another way for 
them to hand the reins of software control over to Micro$oft.  (The 
explanation for this thinking is that most of the good leadership at AOL 
have long since retired after they got rich on stock options.)

Leonard Erickson already pointed to the best answer I am aware of for 
Loren's original question.  That Web site gives both the official and the 
"unofficial" answer but they are both the same thing.  The unofficial 
answer reads to me like it was posted by an AOL tech support rep on his own 
page so that he could point customers to it instead of trying to explain it 
over the phone.

I still maintain an AOL account and my wife exclusively uses AOL when not 
at work, but neither of us have upgraded to version 7.0.  (I used to QA the 
AOL client software and have what I consider good reasons for avoiding 
upgrading.  She just hasn't got around to it yet.)  I will go ahead and 
install 7.0 and fiddle around with it once I get my own computer's 
motherboard and CPU replaced.  I'd rather not install anything new on my 
wife's puter.

With luck, I will find something more useful than that ridiculous 
workaround that is the official method.  I will post results here.

It's no wonder I got a world-class set of ulcers when I was working 
there.  :::shaking head sadly:::

--Laning
"I coulda been _somebody_.  I coulda been a _contender_." -Laning speaking 
about AOL's potential to be much better than what it's turned into.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226E9@USCHM203>

>Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always had trouble with 
>the idea of a line of seperately-designed launchers being required to fire 
>"sand", so I decided to just do away with them IMTU; allowing the typical 
>missile launcher to fire several different types of munitions; with "sand" 
>being used in its usual role as a screen to counter incoming missiles or 
>energy beam fire, as well as it acting as a fairly effective antipersonnel 
>weapon (Striker, bk2).
> -Ken Murphy-

Makes sense to me. IMTU, most sandcasters on smaller ships aren't even
mounted in turrets. They are placed on or in the hull  in various locations
for full coverage, and work similar to the smoke launchers on the turrets of
tanks or chaff launchers on ships and aircraft. There is no need to aim
them, or have any fire-control system other than a manual or automated
activation system.


Brian L. Hurrel
ICS Analyst
EDS
(973) 682-5578


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [Website Review] Elv's Traveller Pages
References: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris> <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net> <02041910580708.03729@avlendris> <5.1.0.14.2.20020419111058.040af780@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <003801c1e7bf$66b51dc0$6e00a8c0@imogen>

The Website Review
------------------

A little later than expected this time, but here is ...

    Elv's Traveller Pages (John G Wood)
    http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller

Most of this site has red text on a black background (a homage to
the LBB covers).  Although this colour scheme can get  irritating
to read it is image-lite  ...  so  pages  are  fast  loading.  In
keeping with the LBB style there are links from  the  front  page
to:

- Page 0. An Introduction To My Traveller Universe
- Page 1. Characters and Combat
- Page 2. Starships
- Page 3. Worlds and Adventures
- Supp. Forms and Charts

The "Introduction" page states  that  it  is  for  material  that
doesn't fit elsewhere.  So far there  are  only  2  pieces,  both
about  psionics.   First  is  a  "right  of  reply"  letter   ...
complaining at the pro-psionic bias  of  a  recently  transmitted
program.  Second is a psionic institute checklist:  based  on  T4
(local world attitute, presence of a psionic institute, how  many
students, campuses, etc).

The "Characters and Combat" page is empty.

The "Starships" page contains GT translations of some Hiver ships
from Alien Module 7 (Explorer, Trader, Embassy Ship, and Research
Cruiser).  There's also a link to a 400dton GTL10 Lighter, and to
a landgrab page (Prilissa/Trin's Veil).

The "Worlds and Adventures" has links to write-ups of  Ochre  and
Cymbeline (both in the Solomani Rim), a link to a formal landgrab
of Prilissa (Spinward Marches), and links to two sector write-ups
(Windhorn  and  Usingou).  The  Ochre  and  Cymbeline   write-ups
include both text and stats, and could qualify as landgrabs.  The
Prilissa write-up *is* a landgrab (albeit as yet unfinished)  ...
there is a large amount of text  and  stats,  and  some  graphics
(world map and system chart).  The sector write-ups are  "initial
development" and has  data  in  Galactic  SEC  and  Galactic  SAR
formats, a list of subsector names, and a micro-sized sector map.

The "Forms and Charts" page has a CC2 file of "IS Form 21" (world
grid), and Gal2CC (a utility that converts sector  and  subsector
maps from Galactic to CC2).  There are also 3 Word documents  for
use with T4 (PE Forms, Shipcards, and a system worksheet) bundled
into a 26K zip.

In summary: T4, GT, and  generic  resources,  wrapped  up  in  CT
style.  The sector write-ups try to be true to the DGP  dot  maps
of those sectors (good!).  And there is  generally  good  support
for Galactic.  This site also reports that it was last updated on
15-Mar-2002 (good, an active site).

Improvements:  The layout implies that  more  content  is  coming
soon ... as it stands at the moment the level  of  content  would
support folding in the main section pages into  the  front  page.
More content is always good.  With the prominance of Galactic  in
this site I would have expected a link to Jim  Vassilakos's  site
(where Galactic can be found).  I look forward to the  completion
of the landgrab  and  more  info  on  the  Windhorn  and  Usingou
sectors.



Regards PLST



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Dan's used HG2 space craft lot #3
Message-ID: <3CC0463F.35BDBF90@mail.cswnet.com>

Buy now, pay later! We have the best used ships this side of Canopus!

Destiny Star class luxury liner
These ships are usually only seen in high pop core sector worlds.
Occasionally, 1 or 2 find their way to the frontier, usually under
charter by the Imperial Navy. On very rare occasions, the ships are
chartered to assist in colonizing a planet.

Destiny Star class luxury liner
ship names include Magic Destiny, Andromeda Princess, Grandeur of the
Stars, Sovereign of the stars, the Queen Hera, etc.
RQ-Y3313G5-093307-90000-0  Mcr798505.54 standard 1.5million dt
            Y   Y Y      TL=13 Crew=13235 Security Troops=1500
            Z   Z Z      Y=250  Z=500
Jump Fuel=450,000dt Plant Fuel=45,000dt EP=45000 Agility=1
Additional fuel=5000dt Fuel scoops and purification plant aboard
Auxiliary Bridge=1 Model7Fib=10 Code3 meson screens=1
Code3 nuclear dampers=10  10dt Sandcaster batteries=500
100dt repulsor bays=500  10dt Laser batteries=500
One 3250dt large craft bay [for visiting spacecraft]
One 51400dt small craft bay, carries:
2000 TL13 20dt QB lifeboats and 100 TL13 95dt RY Shuttlecraft
Crew=13235 [officers=2590 Ratings=10645] Security Troops=1500
Standard Cargo=100,000dt Passenger Cargo=50,000dt
Ships Stores=26,280dt Passengers=50,000 [1 each per 4dt stateroom]
Non-standard items from GT Starports:
10,000dt park habitat modules=10 10,000dt plaza habitat modules=12

Could qualify using Bk6 stats if you fudge the tech level:
Destiny Star DS00468-D NI Va 600Na 

TL13 RY Shuttlecraft
RY-02033A1-030000-20000-0 Mcr37.775 standard  95dt
            2     1           TL=13 Crew=5
            2     1
Fuel=5.7 EP=2.85 Agility=1 
Bridge with 3 additional crew couches [5 total]
Cargo=25 Passenger couches=55
Crew=1pilot, 1gunner, 1medic/steward, 2 stewards.

TL13 QB Lifeboat
QB-0202211-000000-00000-0 Mcr8.8 standard 20dt
no weapons                          TL=13 Crew=1
Fuel=1 EP=.4 Agility=2 Emergency low berths=8 Cargo=4


Assiniboia class gunned cruiser
The pride of the Regina Colonial Navy
CG-K4117D3-050000-60C07-0 Mcr10726.44 10000dt
            5     2 1 3   TL=10 Crew=121
            5     2 1 3   Marines=40
Fuel=1700dt EP=700 Agility=1 Fuel scoops and Purification plant aboard.
50dt missle bays=3  2dt Sandcaster batteries=5
5dt laser batteries=2  4500dt typeC particle accelerator
Carries two 40dt pinnaces with 2 beam lasers, 1 sandcaster, plus
20 emergency low berths Mcr24.25  Pinnaces are listed in Supplement 7,
page 46. They are TL9.
Crew=121[25 officers and 96 ratings] Marines=40[2 officers, 38 troops]
1 VIP passenger possible  Cargo=543dt
A related version, the Bourbon class gunned cruiser, uses a needle
configured hull instead of a box, costs Mcr11326.244


The reconfigured series: D609 Aconit of the French Navy

This is one of those adapted wet navy designs, using Ken Picks'
"Miscellaneous Note: Adapting "Wet-navy" Ships" from "Beyond Book 2:
Expanding the Basic Classic Traveller Starship Design System", available
at the Freelance Traveller website. I kept strictly to HG2 for the
design, so I fudged a little bit on the AAA guns.

D609 Aconit
DD-81146D2-040000-42002-0  Mcr745.366  830dt
            1     11  3    TL10  Crew=26
            1     11  3     Marines=8
Fuel=381.3 Ep=49.3 Agility=4 Cargo=16.9
Crew=1pilot, 1navigator, 8 engineers, 8 gunners, 1 comm specialist,
1 computer specialist, 1 medic, 1 admin orderly. Marines=8


Plop Historical designs: The Chameleon

The Chameleon
Originally from the Star Trek animated series episode "More Trouble with
Tribbles," The Chameleon is Cyrano Jones' ship. This attempted
Travellerization uses details from FASA's Star Trek RPG, which had full
details including a small deckplan. Note: Some fudging went into this
one. Also, design uses "Deck Cargo: Using External Pods For Increasing
Cargo Capacity,"  by Ken Pick, available at Freelance Traveller.

The Chameleon
with 50 dt cargo module.
MS-1123331-000000-00000-0 Mcr94.462 150dt
no weapons                          TL=13 Crew=1
Fuel=34.5dt Ep=4.5 Agile=3 Fuel scoops only; no fuel plant
Model 3 computer. Air/raft=1 Storage=3dt
double stateroom=1 "a masters cabin with lounge"
Carries one special custom 50dt streamlined cargo module [module
cargo=40dt] Cargo module by itself costs Mcr11. 
Note that a normal customized 50dt streamlined cargo module costs
Mcr5.5.

The Chameleon
without 50dt cargo module
MS-1134431-000000-00000-0 Mcr83.462 100dt
no weapons                          TL=13 Crew=1
Fuel=34.5dt Ep=4.5 Agile=3 Fuel scoops only; no fuel plant
Model 3 computer. Air/raft=1 Storage=3dt
double stateroom=1 "a masters cabin with lounge"

Notes on the special custom 50dt streamlined cargo module.
Quoting from "Again, Troublesome Tribbles" by FASA, ?1983
Cyrano has installed "added controls, which allow the cargo module to be
jettisoned in space and exploded by remote control. The walls of the
cargo module are lined with reflective materials which will act on
sensors in a manner similar to radar "chaff", masking Cyrano's escape,
at increased speed, in an emergency."

For HG2 purposes, a declaration to jettison the cargo module must be
made in the launch phase. This has the following effects:
In the range determination phase, the player with Chameleon may open 
range by one level. If previously at short range, he may go to long
range. If at long range, he may opt to dissengage. For combat purposes,
treat the "chaff" as a single Code9 sandcaster battery, available for
one turn only. O^

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
How mesons are created: The stork brings em.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:49:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:49:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 12:08:07AM +1200
References: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost> <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com> <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020419104758.A24689@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 12:08:07AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> The modern system has its origins in Medieval Europe, with knights 
> evolving into the aristocratic officer class, etc.

I believe that various socialists tried the `elect officer from the
ratings, by the ratings' method.  It didn't work very well.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Try travelling from state to state in America without a driver's license
and proof of insurance, to be yielded up to the first uniformed
road-thug who demands it.                       --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CBF6B82.9FD041AE@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:

> > From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
> >
> > Heinlein is often invoked in the science fiction world as an example of
> > libertarian principles at work.  I don't know how many have read his story
> > 'Coventry', which was set inside a huge area cordoned off by the U.S. and
> > completely without laws.  Citizens of the U.S. who broke the law were
> > banished to Coventry to live among the other people who felt they didn't
> > need the law.  Contrary to the expectations of the rugged individualist who
> > starts the story about to enter Coventry, the people inside Coventry
> > evolved their own law, but one that was imposed by the biggest sharks in
> > the pool and not so kind and gentle as the law they had just left
> > behind.  This was Heinlein's story that most directly addressed the issue,
> > and with writer as judge of the conflict between different poliltical
> > systems, he clearly found in favor of the democratic one and against the
> > libertarian one.
> 
> Thank you for remembering this. I knew there was a quite well written
> refutation in his work but I had forgotten the name. 

That's NOT a refutation of libertarianism, it's a refutation of anarchy.
True anarchy doesn't exist; there will always be some sort of social
order, even if it's based in "the biggest bully wins".

Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.  

> As a fairly hard lefty (hey I am a member of the DSA.
> http://www.dsausa.org if you don't know them. Keep in mind that I keep
> that link  in my religion folder... ;') I had a difficult time
> understanding some of his works when I was a teen. The way "Coventry" is
> written makes it very clear that a democracy that passes things against
> his ideals is a better place to him than a tyrany that is exactly in
> line with his thought. It's also useful to understand that one can
> respect while disagreeing. 

Yes, but libertarianism is NOT tyranny or anarchy, and the society in
"Coventry" is NOT libertarian.  A libertarian social contract supports the
right to life (for persons who have been born), liberty, property,
privacy, and free association.

I would expect someone from a group as maligned as the DSA to be able to
understand the difference.

And it depends, doesn't it?  If a "democracy" decides to make just being
who you are illegal because their governing body is so constructed as to
think the right of the majority to decide what's legal should extend into
your bedroom, then you are in a tyranny, aren't you?  If a "democracy"
decides to attach more than half of your property suddenly due to a change
in the public opinion made manifest in law, then you are in a tyranny,
aren't you?

Kiri, lifelong RAH fan and mostly libertarian...

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019237432.7515.ajackson@ping>

Kiri Aradia Morgan writes:
> 
> That's NOT a refutation of libertarianism, it's a refutation of anarchy.

Well, a lot of the libertarians seem to be anarchists in disguise, though it's
true that they're not technically the same thing.
> 
> Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
> exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
> should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
> do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.

Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith.  Or the Libertarian
party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:10:22AM -0700
References: <3CBF6B82.9FD041AE@mailbag.com> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020419113915.A24789@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:10:22AM -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>
> A libertarian social contract supports the right to life (for
> persons who have been born), liberty, property, privacy, and free
> association.

I'd like to point out--solely to avoid misunderstanding--that there is
debate within libertarian circles regarding the personhood of those
yet unborn, and that this naturally colours perception of the rights
appertaining thereto.  Not going to mention my own thoughts, as they
have no business being here.

Otherwise I quite agree with Kiri's post.  Although I've not read the
story in question, it very much sounded not like an argument against
liberty but an argument against anarchy.  While some libertarians tend
towards minarchy, and some even towards anarchy, mainstream
libertarian thought recognises a) that government is evil b) that lack
of government is yet more evil.  Thus the question is not whether to
eliminate it (the answer to that is definitely not) but how to
constrain it so that it protects the liberty of its citizens from all
encroachment.

Anarchists care about encroachment by government; authoritarians care
about encroachment by individuals.  Libertarians care about both, and
seek to find the balance necessary to promote the most liberty for the
most individuals in the best way.

> And it depends, doesn't it?  If a "democracy" decides to make just being
> who you are illegal because their governing body is so constructed as to
> think the right of the majority to decide what's legal should extend into
> your bedroom, then you are in a tyranny, aren't you?  If a "democracy"
> decides to attach more than half of your property suddenly due to a change
> in the public opinion made manifest in law, then you are in a tyranny,
> aren't you?

That's why I've always found emphasis on democracy to be more than a
little foolish.  Certainly, it appears that democracy has the best
chance of ensuring liberty--but it is just as capable of ensuring
tyranny.  I don't care who rules or how, so long as I am free.  If a
king, an emperor or the Great Purple Poobah of Penglesh ensures my
liberties, I'll quite happily be a subject.

ObTrav: This naturally colours my view of the Imperium.  MTU is not
the one of the early LBB adventures with an Imperium out of Star Wars
and megacorps out of cyberpunk.  I latched onto statements such as the
Imperium ruling the space between stars and it having an interest in
free trade and developed a TU much rosier, I think, that many others'.
I'm afraid it doesn't overly resemble the OTU, as in mine un-feoffed
[is that a word?] worlds are much less common: almost every world is
in the posession of a noble.

But I'm an idealist:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert
that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by
themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.
                                                  --Thomas Jefferson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Akins)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Andy Akins Still Around?
In-Reply-To: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419174744.A20BC279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>

David Smart wrote:
>Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Akins?

I do :)

>I'm trying to contact him re: his T4 ship design spreadsheet
>but the andyakins@earthlink.net address from his website
>keeps bouncing email.

Yup, that address is gone. I bought my own domain (leonidae.org) and I'm 
operating from that now...

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>Try andy@leonidae.org.  I was in touch with him in March at that address.

You are correct sir!

For the record, if anyone is looking for my spreadsheets, they are now at 
www.leonidae.org/

I'm _slowly_ adding more stuff to that site, but its gonna take me a while.

	Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Akins)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>

Okay, I think this may be pretty complicated, and I wouldn't be surprised if 
the answer is "Can't be done" or "Too hard" or "Go pick up a $200 Orbital 
Dyanmics Textbook and figure it out..."

But...

...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of 
a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system from above, and the 
primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital parameters of the planet (orbital 
radius, eccentricity, orbital speed, reference point, etc) and the date.

I'd actually like to be able to do this for _the_ solar system, that is enter 
"Nov 16 1969" and be able to plot where the planets are on X,Y paper.

Now, I know that there are comercial astronomy programs (Red Shifft, etc) 
that can do this sort of thing...but I need to try and build this into a 
different program, so I gotta write the algorithm myself.

ARgh.

If anyone can lend me hand, or point me to a website, or tell me that I'm 
nuts, I'd appreciate it....

	Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:59:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:59:56 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1@aol.com>

--part1_74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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>> Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
>> exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
>> should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
>> do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.
>
>Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith.  Or the Libertarian
>party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.

I've often found "minarchist" more useful than "libertarian." More
technically correct, and it hasn't been hijacked by anyone yet.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt;&gt; Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
<BR>&gt;&gt; exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
<BR>&gt;&gt; should not interfere in people's private lives: &nbsp;for instance, what they
<BR>&gt;&gt; do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt;Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith. &nbsp;Or the Libertarian
<BR>&gt;party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.
<BR>
<BR>I've often found "minarchist" more useful than "libertarian." More
<BR>technically correct, and it hasn't been hijacked by anyone yet.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C365F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Well, you ARE nuts, but I don't know if that's related to your current
project ;)
<ducking>

Jesse



<snip>
If anyone can lend me hand, or point me to a website, or tell me that I'm 
nuts, I'd appreciate it....

	Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:08:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:08:14 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <200204190855.BAA14300@ping.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20419.105906.7W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> True, nuclear dampers do imply a lot of bizarre manipulations of decay
> rates that it's very difficult to explain in a way that wouldn't prove
> instantly lethal to all life.  Considering that pions are the primary
> exchange particle of the strong force, nuclear dampers would be expected
> to influence them.
>
> Doesn't help much with the problem of 'mesons aren't notably penetrating
> particles'.  Of course, explaining how nuclear dampers don't change the
> laws of physics in ways that are instantly fatal to life is also a trick.

The only application of nuclear dampers I can think of where it would
*matter* that they were lethal is fixed screens around planetary
installations. 

Then again, they'd make far too good a "death ray" if they were. <sigh>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  Graphics Help
Message-ID: <20020419181048.28151.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

This is way off topic, but I was wondering if one of
the Graphic Guru's on the list would be willing to do
a little volunteer work for my son's baseball league. 
I'm beginning to work on their web site and I need to
get an emblem for them  I have some ideas, but I am
limited to MS Paint, and, well, that just don't cut
it. :)

Thanks,
Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20419.105906.7W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019240622.1051.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> The only application of nuclear dampers I can think of where it would
> *matter* that they were lethal is fixed screens around planetary
> installations. 
> 
> Then again, they'd make far too good a "death ray" if they were. <sigh>

Well, most obvious versions of nuclear dampers either have energy requirements
best measured in kilograms, or would tend to make matter explode and are well
suited to Death Star tricks.  Incidentally, even limiting ourselves to known
effects of nuclear dampers, they're well suited to producing nova-level flares
with a reasonable sized damper, focused to accelerate fusion, pointed at the
star.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
Message-ID: <20020419182536.82956.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

All the recent talk about jump drive and 100D limits
has gotten me thinking.  OK, the assumption first...

     The Jump Grid "erases" the effects of gravity/
     tidal force/whatever that would prevent a ship
     from being outside of its own 100D limit.

If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
have they discovered in regards to this test?

Might it be possible (if not practical) to exceed the
J-6 limit.  Immagine a J-6 small xboat jumping from
within the hull of a J-6 carrier.  Can we reach J-12,
J-36, or (gasp!) J-46,656 (6^6)?  This could be an
easy launch point for an "unusual" adventures.  As in
the following:


The Patron hires the players as a retrieval squad. 
Only later do they find out where the retrieval is. 
The have 3 J-6 ships.  The HUGE, the Medium, and the
small.  The Medium is designed to Jump twice and then
Slag the J-Drive.  It doesn't have anything else of
its own, simply a hull, fuel, and a J-6 drive.  The
Huge and Medium engage together with the Small in the
hull of the Medium (and the PC's in the Small).  The
Medium Jumps 46,656 parsecs into an unknown territory.
 The PC's have to retrieve the scientist who tested
the first ship and return by engaging the Medium and
Small J-6's at the same time to get home.

I know it isn't official canon (cannon?) or is it? 
Have all the research experiments from all the
research stations in the Imperium been posted to the
citizens?  Hmmm.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:33:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:33:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020419182536.82956.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019241046.5627.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> 
> If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
> HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
> during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
> entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
> stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
> have they discovered in regards to this test?

My suspicion would be 'both ships disappear'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>; from andy@leonidae.org on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:53:42PM -0500
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419130413.B24789@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:53:42PM -0500, Andy Akins wrote:
> 
> ...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of 
> a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system from above, and the 
> primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital parameters of the planet (orbital 
> radius, eccentricity, orbital speed, reference point, etc) and the date.

Well, for the simplest case assume that the planet is in a perfect
circular orbit around its star and that it started its orbit directly
`north' of that star.  Planet.period is the time it take to complete 1
rotation around the star.

orbit_degree(planet, time) = 360*time/planet.period mod 360

Then from orbit_degree it's fairly simple to determine where along the
circle the planet is.  For a very simple first approximation of a
planetary orbit, this is sufficient--for a slightly less simple an a
random deviation based on eccentricity.


It gets rather more complicated from there.

A real orbit is an ellipse, with the star being rotated around at one
of the focii (not really true, but close enough).

<http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html> should provide something
of a start.  I've gotten as far as determining the definitions of
major and minor axes in terms of eccentricity.  If one assumes that
the `average seperation' used in GT is the average of min and max
seperations, not the average distance over time, then the major axis
2a is simpy min_sep + max_sep, and the minor axis 2b =
2a*sqrt(1-ecc^2).

I don't recall which definition of average seperation GT uses.  I've a
nasty feeling that sometimes it's simply the average of min and max,
and sometimes it's an average over time.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty
clearly to protect political discourse.  But liberals reject the notion
that free speech is therefore limited to political topics, even broadly
defined.  True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself.
But why leap to the conclusion that a broadly worded constitutional
freedom (`the right of the people to keep and bear arms') is narrowly
limited by its stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away?
My New Republic colleague Mickey Kaus says that if liberals interpreted
the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest of the Bill of
Rights, there would be law professors arguing that gun ownership is
mandatory.       --Michael Kinsley Washington Post, January 8, 1990

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:10:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:10:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419145637.041a0f88@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:53 PM 4/19/2002, Andy Akins wrote:
>Okay, I think this may be pretty complicated [...] I would _really_ like a 
>formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of a planet.


I have a book (that's about 20 years old now) called _Practical Astronomy 
with Your Calculator_ that may be of use to you.  Particularly if you're 
going for gaming-accuracy approximations (rather than pointing a real 
telescope or navigating an actual spacecraft).  It appears to have been 
revised in 1990, and looks like it's still in print.  Go to Amazon.com, and 
punch in the title; it should come right up.

It's mainly aimed at the backyard astronomer, but I think there is enough 
information given to translate between the various coordinate systems, and 
provide the X,Y coordinates that you're asking for.  Also browsing through 
the astronomy section on Amazon, I saw _Fundamentals of Astrodynamics_, 
which is inexpensive and appears to be useful.

Good luck,


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

.
> 
> Pilots are made into officers for reasons of
> tradition and there's no 
> real reason for them to be, no matter what they
> might say on this.
> 
Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
or no reason for them to be grunts first?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>; from andy@leonidae.org on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:53:42PM -0500
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>

Here's some more info from the page I mentioned
<http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html>.  Assuming, once again,
that the standard orbital radius is the simple of min and max radii,
we have:

(1) min_sep + max_sep = 2a (the major axis; distance from one end of the
			   orbit to another)

(2) min_sep(planet) = planet.radius*(1-planet.ecc)

(3) max_sep(planet) = planet.radius*(1+planet.ecc)

and thus:

(4) major(planet) = 2*planet.radius

(5) semimajor(planet) = planet.radius

We also have a function returning current degree from `north':

(6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)

Given orbital_deg(), we can find distance from a focus by:

(7) radius(planet,time) = (semimajor(planet)*(1-planet.ecc^2)) /
    (1+planet.ecc*cos(orbital_deg(planet, time)))

And for an ellipse, where theta = orbital_deg(planet,time), r =
radius(planet, time) and c = semimajor(planet)*planet.ecc:

(8) x = c + r cos theta
(9) y = r sin theta

Which in our case reduces to:

(8a) x(planet, time) = semimajor(planet)*planet.ecc +
		       semimajor(planet)*(1-planet.ecc^2)

(9a) y(planet, time) = radius(planet, time) * orbital_deg(planet, time)

None of this has been tested outed, and I could very well be
wrong--I'm no physicist, and while I was a Math/CS major the emphasis
was on CS.  And I'm rusty.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A properly balanced sword is the most versatile weapon for close
quarters ever devised: a sword never jams, never has to be reloaded;
it is always ready.                               --Robert Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>

Paul Walker writes:
> 
> If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
> HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
> during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
> entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
> stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
> have they discovered in regards to this test?

I wouldn't recommend engaging a jump drive while sitting in the hold of a
ship already in jump-space. As far as the results of such an event, I would
assume a 99.9% chance of a catastrophic catastrophy.
Perhaps there'd be a One in a Trillion chance that the ship would end up
300,000 LY away in the Andromeda Galaxy (or at the exit 13A Toll Plaza on
the NJ Turnpike for that matter).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:41:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:41:30 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8E5C044.577B2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/19/02 12:32 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> or no reason for them to be grunts first?
> 

The Air Force doesn't have 'grunts'.  Didn't you know that?  They have
technicians (Excepting Para Rescue and a few other oddballs who'd probably
be happier in the Army or Marines. :)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:44:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:44:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1019245236.0.55880100@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Mr. Whipsnade posted:
>
<snip>
> As you all well know, I'm not the sharpest tool
> in the shed
<snip>

EXCUSE ME? After your "Colossus" posts detailing your alternate ending to the MT Rebellion, I'll be happy to debate your statement with you or anyone else.

That was a masterful piece of work, sir, and one that has become a permanent part of my MT campaigns. I haven't seen much of your other work but quality, not quantity, is the mark of excellence (as Imperium Games found out the hard way).

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020419113915.A24789@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191235301.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:10:22AM -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> >
> > A libertarian social contract supports the right to life (for
> > persons who have been born), liberty, property, privacy, and free
> > association.
> 
> I'd like to point out--solely to avoid misunderstanding--that there is
> debate within libertarian circles regarding the personhood of those
> yet unborn, and that this naturally colours perception of the rights
> appertaining thereto.  Not going to mention my own thoughts, as they
> have no business being here.

There is always going to be debate, but I'm talking about what nearly all
libertarians can agree on, which is that people who have been born have
the right to continue living, unless of course they are killed by someone 
who is defending themselves against their attack.
 
> Otherwise I quite agree with Kiri's post.  Although I've not read the
> story in question, it very much sounded not like an argument against
> liberty but an argument against anarchy. 

Exactly so.  But then, we usually agree about political matters, and we
both regard matters of religion as private.  :)

> While some libertarians tend towards minarchy, and some even towards
> anarchy, mainstream libertarian thought recognises a) that government
> is evil b) that lack of government is yet more evil.  Thus the
> question is not whether to eliminate it (the answer to that is
> definitely not) but how to constrain it so that it protects the
> liberty of its citizens from all encroachment.

Exactly.
 
> Anarchists care about encroachment by government; authoritarians care
> about encroachment by individuals.  Libertarians care about both, and
> seek to find the balance necessary to promote the most liberty for the
> most individuals in the best way.

That is the best explanation I've heard yet.  Might steal it for the quote
file if you don't mind.

> > And it depends, doesn't it?  If a "democracy" decides to make just being
> > who you are illegal because their governing body is so constructed as to
> > think the right of the majority to decide what's legal should extend into
> > your bedroom, then you are in a tyranny, aren't you?  If a "democracy"
> > decides to attach more than half of your property suddenly due to a change
> > in the public opinion made manifest in law, then you are in a tyranny,
> > aren't you?
> 
> That's why I've always found emphasis on democracy to be more than a
> little foolish.  Certainly, it appears that democracy has the best
> chance of ensuring liberty--but it is just as capable of ensuring
> tyranny.  I don't care who rules or how, so long as I am free.  If a
> king, an emperor or the Great Purple Poobah of Penglesh ensures my
> liberties, I'll quite happily be a subject.

I can certainly understand that, but whatever the government is, it should
have checks and balances.  The problem with monarchy is that it's usually
hereditary and there's no guarantee that a monarch who ensures our liberty
will be succeeded by another one just like him/her.

> ObTrav: This naturally colours my view of the Imperium.  MTU is not
> the one of the early LBB adventures with an Imperium out of Star Wars
> and megacorps out of cyberpunk.  I latched onto statements such as the
> Imperium ruling the space between stars and it having an interest in
> free trade and developed a TU much rosier, I think, that many others'.
> I'm afraid it doesn't overly resemble the OTU, as in mine un-feoffed
> [is that a word?] worlds are much less common: almost every world is
> in the posession of a noble.
> 
> But I'm an idealist:-)

Indeed.  I'm more of a cold, hard realist; my libertarianism springs from
the knowledge that if you give 200 million people a voice in your private
life, or what you can own, or what you can do with what you own, they'll
often take it... and feel justified in so doing, if you allow yourself to 
become dependent upon their largesse, enforced or not.... :)

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:51:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:51:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019245364.3010.ajackson@ping>

Robert A. Uhl writes:
> Here's some more info from the page I mentioned
> <http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html>.  Assuming, once again,
> that the standard orbital radius is the simple of min and max radii,

It's usually the semi-major axis, which is, yes, the average of min and max.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:56:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:56:13 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

laning wrote:
> 
>> Does AOL offer SMTP and (POP3 or IMAP) to its subscribers?  If so, you
>> can use any mail client you wish.  I understand that Mozilla's is very
>> good, for those who like GUI clients.
> 
> 
> Not last I heard.  There was an alpha test of that using employees only 
> a couple or three years ago and it wandered into a swamp and never came 
> out.  

Au contraire, mon frere....I am happily using Mozilla 0.9.9 right now, 
with the magic 1.0 release coming in about a month. It will be a rather 
well-behaved 1.0 release as well.

http://www.mozilla.org

Mozilla has been my main browser/mail application for over a year now, 
and I am quite pleased with it.

You might have seen it as Netscape 6.2...(same program with a Netscape 
theme) Netscape 6.0 was the MOzilla 0.7 or 0.8 release, was slow and had 
many bugs, but the current version is quite nice, and a good performer, imo.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:58:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:58:44 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019237432.7515.ajackson@ping>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419154608.00b8a5f0@urbin.net>

At 10:30 AM 4/19/02 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Kiri Aradia Morgan writes:
> > That's NOT a refutation of libertarianism, it's a refutation of anarchy.
>Well, a lot of the libertarians seem to be anarchists in disguise, though it's
>true that they're not technically the same thing.

Well, perhaps when viewed from a leftist lens.
Libertarians do not believe in a "Nanny State" that is the dream/goal of 
many dempublicans.
The Libertarianism is not anarchy. It is, as Kiri pointed out, a clearly 
defined social contract between the citizens of the state and the 
government they selected to run it.

> > Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
> > exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
> > should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
> > do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.
>Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith.  Or the Libertarian
>party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.

Hmm...I just stopped by <http://www.lp.org/> and read some position papers.
I agree with Kiri.  She just happened to pick and example of a single 
position that the ACLU happens to agree with the LP platform.

In fact, the LP web site lists the ACLU (along with a link) as an 
organization that also supports privacy rights.
I wonder if you can find a link to the Libertarian Party site anywhere on 
the ACLU site...


ObTrav: Nope...not going there...I vote this thread goes to the tml-chat list.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:02:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:02:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <DAV14zx4iXK3M38gh6y00018aa9@hotmail.com>

------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C1E7BA.B573E810
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Don't forge the influence of Rand on Libertarianism.
And of course, don't forget that the current Libertarian party leadership=
 fully believes in guilt by association. Consider the habits of Rand and =
the later writings of Heinlein and then consider what they say about Libe=
rtarians.

Of course, I like Norman Spinrad and his take on electronic democracy. :-=
P


Sam

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<HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Don't forge th=
e influence of Rand on Libertarianism.</DIV> <DIV>And of course, don't fo=
rget that the current Libertarian party leadership fully believes in guil=
t by association. Consider the habits of Rand and the later writings of H=
einlein and then consider what they say about Libertarians.</DIV> <DIV>&n=
bsp;</DIV> <DIV>Of course, I like Norman Spinrad and his take on electron=
ic democracy. :-P</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Sam</DIV=
></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:10:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:10:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419154608.00b8a5f0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019246981.7419.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:

> In fact, the LP web site lists the ACLU (along with a link) as an 
> organization that also supports privacy rights.
> I wonder if you can find a link to the Libertarian Party site anywhere on 
> the ACLU site...

Well, I can't find _any_ links to other organizations on the ACLU site, so no. 
You can find some court cases where the ACLU and the libertarian party were
co-defendants, however.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191235301.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:41:40PM -0700
References: <20020419113915.A24789@4dv.net> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191235301.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020419141527.A25183@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:41:40PM -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> There is always going to be debate, but I'm talking about what nearly all
> libertarians can agree on, which is that people who have been born have
> the right to continue living, unless of course they are killed by someone 
> who is defending themselves against their attack.

I'd phrase it as `libertarians believe that people have the right to
go on living, unless they do something to negate that right.'  By
leaving unsaid what a person is, and what can be done to negate that
right, we've a definition that just about anyone can, I think agree
to.  And then argue to their heart's content about the undefined
terms.  On another list...

> > Anarchists care about encroachment by government; authoritarians care
> > about encroachment by individuals.  Libertarians care about both, and
> > seek to find the balance necessary to promote the most liberty for the
> > most individuals in the best way.
> 
> That is the best explanation I've heard yet.  Might steal it for the quote
> file if you don't mind.

I don't believe in restricting non-deceptive quoting:-)

> I can certainly understand that, but whatever the government is, it should
> have checks and balances.  The problem with monarchy is that it's usually
> hereditary and there's no guarantee that a monarch who ensures our liberty
> will be succeeded by another one just like him/her.

Yep--that's why I said that democracy seems to be the best.  I wonder,
though, how a combined system would work.  A king, an aristocratic
house, a common house a democratic plebiscites.  Balance them all
against one another and with any luck once they'd gotten around to:
forbidding murder, rape, theft and fraud; establishing property and
privacy law; and funding the military, they'd just settle down into
fruitless doing nothing.

> Indeed.  I'm more of a cold, hard realist; my libertarianism springs from
> the knowledge that if you give 200 million people a voice in your private
> life, or what you can own, or what you can do with what you own, they'll
> often take it... and feel justified in so doing, if you allow yourself to 
> become dependent upon their largesse, enforced or not.... :)

That's why I like the idea of a government of men, not laws.  It's
dashed difficult to kill a law, but very easy to kill a man.  Being a
man, he knows this, and acts circumspectly.

See, there's one Emperor.  And a septillion sophonts out there.  He'd
better be doing his best not to alienate too many of them at any one
time.

This would, of course, lead to priority being given to worlds near
Capital, as they are the ones for which it is simplest to retaliate.
But to balance that fact IMTU there's a fairly active Moot, which
being made of equal representatives from across the Imperium tends to
level that voice out (much as in the US Colo. has nearly the same
voice in federal affairs that Va. has).  There's a balance between the
Emperor and the Moot such that for both the man and the entity the
best path is the way of least action.

Which in a government is a desirable thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To murder a man is much odious, to kill a woman is in manner unnatural,
but to slay and destroy innocent babes and young infants, the whole
world abhorreth, and their blood from the earth crieth for vengeance to
almighty God.                                    --Edward Hall, c. 1480

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV14zx4iXK3M38gh6y00018aa9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E5C9B9.577DC%listmom@travellercentral.com>

on 4/19/02 12:56 PM, Samuel Weiss at samwise1@msn.com wrote:
  
>Sam

Sam,

Please don't use styled text on the list.

Thanks

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019246981.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8E5CAD9.577E6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/19/02 1:09 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> 
> Well, I can't find _any_ links to other organizations on the ACLU site, so no.
> You can find some court cases where the ACLU and the libertarian party were
> co-defendants, however.

That doesn't say much. I seem to recall the ACLU and NRA being co-plaintiffs
recently.  

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020419202918.31056.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
> Paul Walker writes:
> > 
> > If this is the case, what would happen if there
> were a
> > HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump
> (or
> > during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
> > entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
> > stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
> > have they discovered in regards to this test?
> 
> I wouldn't recommend engaging a jump drive while
> sitting in the hold of a
> ship already in jump-space. As far as the results of
> such an event, I would
> assume a 99.9% chance of a catastrophic catastrophy.
> Perhaps there'd be a One in a Trillion chance that
> the ship would end up
> 300,000 LY away in the Andromeda Galaxy (or at the
> exit 13A Toll Plaza on
> the NJ Turnpike for that matter).

But why?  This is the second reply I got that said it
would be a bad thing and would probably destroy all
ships involved.  Is there any support for this?  I'm
not opposed to non OTU, but my original question was
whether there was anything in the official rules
and/or history to support or prevent such occurances?

Thanks,
Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>

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Sorry to take up space with this.

Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in stand=
ard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I have wrong=
?


Sam

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<HTML><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff" STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"=
><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Sorry to take up space with this.</DIV> <DIV>&nbs=
p;</DIV> <DIV>Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was=
 sent in standard format. I use arial as my font.<FONT color=3D#000000>&n=
bsp;What other setting&nbsp;might I have wrong?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;<=
/DIV> <DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] the handwaving is getting closer to real life
Message-ID: <200204192111.EOL06094@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Yet another variant on "quantum" something.

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2861822,
00.html
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:25:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:25:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191423490.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Samuel Weiss wrote:

> 
> Sorry to take up space with this.
> 
> Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in
> standard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I
> have wrong?

The fact that you HAVE a "font" setting means that you are using styled
text-- your mail client may be calling it "rich text" or HTML instead,
though.

Please turn it off.

Thanks,
Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419172919.00b89740@urbin.net>

Plain ASCII would be best.

At 04:37 PM 4/19/02 -0400, Samuel Weiss wrote:
>
>Sorry to take up space with this.
>
>Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in 
>standard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I have wrong?
>
>
>Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019240622.1051.ajackson@ping>
References: <20419.105906.7W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <ML-2.3.1019240622.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020420073353.A4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> they're well suited to producing nova-level flares with a reasonable
> sized damper, focused to accelerate fusion, pointed at the star.

I've always thought of them as affecting only isotopes that were
already unstable, essentially just modifying the probability that they
decay right there and then.  They can accelerate decay of radiocative
materials, or prevent it.  They can suppress a fission chain reaction
by preventing the decay of nuclei that have one too many neutrons, or
accelerate it by increasing the rate at which the fuel nuclei decay
initially.

IMTU, their effect on pure fusion is almost negligible.  If you could
project the field into the core of a star, you might be able to stop
some of the side-reactions based on decay of unstable isotopes, but
this would not have an immediate effect.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:39:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:39:13 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <B8E5CAD9.577E6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191434420.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/19/02 1:09 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Well, I can't find _any_ links to other organizations on the ACLU site, so no.
> > You can find some court cases where the ACLU and the libertarian party were
> > co-defendants, however.
> 
> That doesn't say much. I seem to recall the ACLU and NRA being co-plaintiffs
> recently.  

Well, that really ought to happen more often, given the fact that the ACLU
is supposed to be engaged in protecting the Bill of Rights.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:42:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:42:09 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net> <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020420074153.B4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Au contraire, mon frere....I am happily using Mozilla 0.9.9 right now, 
> with the magic 1.0 release coming in about a month. It will be a rather 
> well-behaved 1.0 release as well.

I think laning was referring to POP & IMAP test having wandered into a
swamp, not to Mozilla.  (Did mozilla even have functional mail a year
or three ago?)


> You might have seen it as Netscape 6.2...(same program with a
> Netscape theme) Netscape 6.0 was the MOzilla 0.7 or 0.8 release, was
> slow and had many bugs, but the current version is quite nice, and a
> good performer, imo.

Yes, I use Mozilla 0.9.9 as my everyday web browser.  I use mutt as my
email client.  Not because Mozilla's is bad, just because Mutt is
*good* and I often like to use it from work over a 56k connection :)
(In the words of the author -- "All mail clients suck.  This one just
sucks less.")


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:49:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:49:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020419202918.31056.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419164150.01eb9740@mail.qrc.com>

At 04:29 PM 4/19/2002, Paul Walker wrote:
>[Is] there was anything in the official rules and/or history to support or 
>prevent such occurances?

The specific situation - attempting to activate a jump drive while already 
in jump space - is (to the best of my knowledge) undefined in all versions 
of the Traveller rules.  Thus, in your Traveller universe you can have any 
sort of outcome you would like.  However, I believe Marc Miller is on 
record as saying on numerous occasions that any sort of controlled jump 
longer than 6 parsecs is flatly impossible in Traveller.

In every other case that is covered by the rules, attempting to do 
something unusual with a jump drive causes one of three results: either 
nothing happens, the ship misjumps, or is catastrophically destroyed.  Any 
of these would be appropriate, and destruction sounds most likely to me as 
well.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <20020420074153.B4777@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 07:41:53AM +1000
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net> <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020420074153.B4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020419155915.A25440@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 07:41:53AM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Yes, I use Mozilla 0.9.9 as my everyday web browser.  I use mutt as
> my email client.

Ditto on both counts here.  Mozilla is simply the best browser out
there (tabbed browsing has changed my web browsing habits for good).
Mutt is an excellent little MUA.

I have been considering using gnus or RMAIL to read mail, though.
Both are within emacs, and with a little bit of work on a few things
I'd never need to leave the great Editor-that-Is.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give
orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem,
pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently,
die gallantly.  Specialization is for insects.
                            --Robert Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420073353.A4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019253756.6212.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> I've always thought of them as affecting only isotopes that were
> already unstable, essentially just modifying the probability that they
> decay right there and then.

So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier around a
nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many nuclei, since the range
of the strong force is important), or you're altering the probability of
quantum tunneling (which I suspect would have dire effects on chemistry).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEHMDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi

You need to solve Kepler's Equations to get the "mean anomaly" and from that
determine the orbital coordinates.

It's not simple, the equation is something like E = msinE, so the answer is
also part of the equation, and the only real method of solution is to
iteration.

To get that far, you need to have five, maybe six values to define an
orbital path - argument of perihelion, longitude of ascending node,
inclination to ecliptic plane, semimajor axis, orbital eccentricity - and
the point in time (the "epoch") for which all of these apply. You will need
to be aware of time here, as astronomers use standard timescales to
eliminate issues associated with timezones etc, and also the difference
between the solar day and the sidereal (i.e. stellar day) of 3mins 56secs.

On top of that, orbits are perturbed by other planets and objects, and you
need to account for atmospheric effects (refraction) and lightspeed lag
(aberration) if you intend to draw a night sky view. If you want to do it
over a very long period, then you need to account for precession of orbital
nodes/elements as well.

However, I've written a Java Orrery for my RuneQuest campaign world that
accounts for all of the above, and can predict eclipses, various planetary
alignments, zodiacal houses and a few bits besides. With a bit of work it
could handle any solar system you like to imagine.

Mail me off list and I'll see what I can do.

Regards

Andy Brick

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 17/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
> .
> > 
> > Pilots are made into officers for reasons of
> > tradition and there's no 
> > real reason for them to be, no matter what they
> > might say on this.
> > 
> Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> or no reason for them to be grunts first?
> 
  >>
  Pilots are officers because the military does not
want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
why........

     MACessna
  >>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:43:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:43:27 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
 <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8e64cae2f75@[143.232.119.186]>

At 6:45 PM +1000 4/19/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>Brian Caball wrote:
>>  Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel"
>>  problems: Nuclear Damping Technology.
>
>The only problem is, why doesn't a meson gun then function
>automatically as a perfect meson screen?  If you can prevent your
>mesons decaying over distances of up to millions of kilometres, why
>can't you ensure that the other guy's mesons don't decay within a
>range of twenty metres?

This is close to the explination I've always used.  Meson guns 
contrive to produce mesons with a known lifetime though the use of 
technology related to what they use for nuclear dampers.

Why doesn't that make them also meson screens?  One answers is the 
limitations in word "related".  It can be related without having the 
same configuration you need for screen.  The second is that if the 
effect acts inside the weapon, then it would only act as a screen for 
mesons shot into the weapon.

If you want a full fledged screen, you have to set it up that way....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 17:43:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 19 16:43:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Message from John G. Wood -- [OT] New Gamer :)
Message-ID: <74.1b98a336.29f20575@aol.com>

Here's a message John has asked me to forward to the TML:


 >Folks,
 >
 >Some of you may remember me - I was a member of the list up until about
 >a  year ago, although never a prolific poster. Since many of you have 
 >expressed personal interest in the past, I've asked Michael to post
 >this  for me.
 >
 >Our son Isaac was born in the early hours of Friday 12th April,
 >weighing  in at 8lb 4oz (3.75kg) - everything went well, mother and
 >baby were home  by 7:30 *AM*, and we're settling into a new routine of
 >sorts. His big  sister May (two years old on the 17th) is fascinated by
 >him. I've put some  pictures up on the website at
 >http://www.elvwood.org/Family/BabyIsaac.html 
 >- larger versions are linked from the thumbnails.
 >
 >For those who care, my Traveller gaming has actually increased slightly
 > since I left the list. I got to meet (and play GURPS Traveller with) a
 >TML  member at GenCon UK [waves to Megan], then played two games of
 >classic at  Dragonmeet - where I also got to sign copies of _101
 >Corporations_, which  was a laugh.
 >
 >Take care all,
 >
 >John <john@elvwood.org> http://www.elvwood.org/Traveller/
 >
 >P.S. I recently updated the website; the Traveller section hasn't
 >changed  much but the GURPS section has expanded quite a bit.
 >
 >P.P.S. I also moved hosts. Using the Elvwood domain in links (rather
 >than  the actual site it points to) is best since I own it, so it won't
 >change.
 >

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020420102803.C4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Akins wrote:
> ...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y
> coordinates of a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system
> from above, and the primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital
> parameters of the planet (orbital radius, eccentricity, orbital
> speed, reference point, etc) and the date.

Go pick up a $200 orbital dynamics textbook and figure it out.  :)


That said, if you're willing to ignore interactions between planets,
you can get a reasonable approximation with simple trig functions.  It
won't give you enough accuracy to point a telescope at them, but it
will suffice for a 2D graphical display of a system.

Start with the semi-major axis 'a' (the average of closest and most
distant approach to the star), and the eccentricity 'e'.  You can work
out the period from this, using

 T = 2 pi / sqrt(G M / a^3),

where M is the mass of the star and G is the gravitational constant.
(Oddly enough, it does not depend upon the eccentricity).

The distance 'r' from the star at a given angle 'theta' from
perihelion is given by

  r = a (1 - e^2) / (1 + e cos theta)

So this gives you the shape of the orbit.  The position variation with
time is rather messier.  I couldn't find a formula anywhere, so I
built one myself:

Let 't' be the number of orbits (or fractional orbits).  Then

  theta = 2 arctan ((1+e) tan(pi t) / sqrt(1-e^2)).  (I hope)

So for any given time, you can work out theta and hence r.


The overview: use heliocentric coordinates, i.e. with the sun at 0,0.
Find the semimajor axis 'a' and eccentricity 'a' for the planet, and
some time 'T0' when it passed through perihelion.  Also find the
angular position of that perihelion 'theta0' (relative to your X
axis).  Calculate T.

Now for any given time T1, t = (T1 - T0) / T.  Work out theta based on
t, and r based on theta.  Let theta1 = theta + theta0.

Now, X = r cos theta1, Y = r sin theta1, and you're done!

Of course, I may have made all sorts of blunders in my calculations
here, I haven't had breakfast yet!  This algorithm is offered without
warranty, including the implied warranties of merchantability ... etc.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020420103427.D4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> We also have a function returning current degree from `north':
> 
> (6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)

This is a problematic formula.  The angle swept out by a planet in
orbit is not linear in time (which I'm guessing is what you meant).
It varies in a more complicated manner.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019253756.6212.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020420073353.A4777@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1019253756.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier
> around a nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many
> nuclei, since the range of the strong force is important), or you're
> altering the probability of quantum tunneling (which I suspect would
> have dire effects on chemistry).

The latter, but only for nucleons.  This should have virtually no
effect on chemistry, which depends exclusively on electron
wavefunctions.  It would have a an effect on fusion in cases where the
fusing plasma is only marginally hot enough.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEHMDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEHMDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020420104411.F4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Brick wrote:
> To get that far, you need to have five, maybe six values to define
> an orbital path - argument of perihelion, longitude of ascending
> node, inclination to ecliptic plane, semimajor axis, orbital
> eccentricity - and the point in time (the "epoch") for which all of
> these apply.

You don't need the longitude of the ascending node or the inclination
to ecliptic plane if you're just interested in a 2D planar system.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019263660.4086.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier
> > around a nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many
> > nuclei, since the range of the strong force is important), or you're
> > altering the probability of quantum tunneling (which I suspect would
> > have dire effects on chemistry).
> 
> The latter, but only for nucleons.

Aha, so we have magically targeted changes in the rules of quantum mechanics.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 19:08:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 18:08:15 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEHCGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Gee,

And to think I thought you just took a bunch on Quarks, 
stirred in just enough gluons and VOILA!!!!

Seriously once you get into that energy domain, chemistry
is the last thing you are worried about.


JML
"Now kids, make sure that your triggering charge fuses the Hydrogen 
Nuclei all at once."

A scene from the last episode of 'Fun with Chemistry'.


Subject: Re: [TML] How Mesons a

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier
> around a nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many
> nuclei, since the range of the strong force is important), or you're
> altering the probability of quantum tunneling (which I suspect would
> have dire effects on chemistry).

The latter, but only for nucleons.  This should have virtually no
effect on chemistry, which depends exclusively on electron
wavefunctions.  It would have a an effect on fusion in cases where the
fusing plasma is only marginally hot enough.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 19:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 18:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020420103427.D4777@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:34:27AM +1000
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net> <20020420103427.D4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020419191148.A25850@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:34:27AM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > We also have a function returning current degree from `north':
> > 
> > (6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)
> 
> This is a problematic formula.  The angle swept out by a planet in
> orbit is not linear in time (which I'm guessing is what you meant).
> It varies in a more complicated manner.

Well, it _was_ an off-the-cuff first approximation.  I understand that
it actually accelerates towards the star, zips around it, then slows
down as it flies away.  Which is something the opposite of what my
formula would do--it'd appear to move more quickly at the far end as
at the near bit.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I remember when everybody posted to Usenet with their real, deliverable
e-mail address.  Of all the sins committed by the spammers, destroying
the viability of the open Internet was the worst.
                      --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 19:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Fri Apr 19 18:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS TML SKILLS
References: <20020417145227.5577E279F2@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <19435.1019129225@www58.gmx.net>

Michael Hughes wrote:
> I love Megatraveller, but like all RPGers I changed it to taste. So for my
> system, which has a combo of MT & T4 skills, plus some of my own, any
> skill
> that is related gives a Synergy bonus. For example, I consider Computers
> and
> Robotics linked skills. If you have a Skill level of 2-3 you can add a DM
> of
> 1 to a linked skill, and if Skill level 4+ add 2. If you have more than
> one
> linked skill then you only add the highest bonus. 

Nice idea - I could propably implement something like that into starship
combat, where IMHO the human aspect is overruled by computers... 'synergyzing'
skills and computers would be more to my taste.

> I have found it works very well. I am more than happy to email to you if
> you're interested, along with the reworked task & generation rules. 

That would be superb :-)  I'm allways looking for new input, especially
regarding something that's been around as long as MT.
So feel free to use my upper adress...

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419191148.A25850@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEHFGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Off the top of my head.

As you know in a given amount of time a 
planet will sweep a constant area.  Assuming 
a reasonably non eccentric orbit this could 
be approximated as an rissoles triangle with 
each long arm being the orbital radius.  The 
planet would cover a distance of roughly 
the magic area divided by the orbital radius.  
At the beginning of the next time period the 
planet's radius is (old radius + ( eccentricity
* (Magic time/orbital period) * [ 1 if 
receding from the Sun, -1 if approaching the Sun]).  
You have all three sides so use the law of cosines
to extract the angle swept, accumulate it from your 
starting angle to find the new angle.  Repeat this 
until you get to the time you want.

You only have  to calculate to half an orbit. 
If you supply the area, the starting angle, and 
the starting radius in addition to the normal 
information and you only need generate its radius 
and angle when a ship is jumping.

Unfortunately I can't see off the top of my head 
a quick way to extract the correct orbital radius 
and angle at any arbitrary time without recursion 
and a number of calculations


Yes, I realize that this will break down close to 
the primary and with eccentric orbits.

jml

Given what I recall doing in high school shop class,
I'm not all that certain that letting secondary students learn 
recombinant DNA techniques is all that good an idea.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:34:27AM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > We also have a function returning current degree from `north':
> > 
> > (6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)
> 
> This is a problematic formula.  The angle swept out by a planet in
> orbit is not linear in time (which I'm guessing is what you meant).
> It varies in a more complicated manner.

Well, it _was_ an off-the-cuff first approximation.  I understand that
it actually accelerates towards the star, zips around it, then slows
down as it flies away.  Which is something the opposite of what my
formula would do--it'd appear to move more quickly at the far end as
at the near bit.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I remember when everybody posted to Usenet with their real, deliverable
e-mail address.  Of all the sins committed by the spammers, destroying
the viability of the open Internet was the worst.
                      --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
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TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>

At 03:35 PM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Pilots are officers because the military does not
>want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
>flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
>though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
>the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
>arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
>that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
>wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
>why........

That being said, during WWII the Germans used enlisted pilots, as did the 
RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying sergeants, since they thought 
there was no reason to tie up perfectly good officers in what was 
essentially a technical skill.  That died as carriers came to the fore, and 
more Marines came to be stationed on ships. Many of the old Flying 
Sergeants received reserve commissions as officers, while retaining their 
permanent rank as enlisted men.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019263660.4086.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1019263660.4086.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020420121558.A5360@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Aha, so we have magically targeted changes in the rules of quantum
> mechanics.

Yes, that's the one :)

It goes well with the magical reactionless thrusters (or magical
HEPlaR), magical jump drive, magical meson beams, magical gravity
suppression, magical artifical gravity, and magical computer viruses.
After that, you've got the *real* magic of the Ancients' stuff...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419192446.021e1ec0@mail.verizon.net>

Hi Larsen,

Try searching for the term   "table of organization and 
equipment"   (include the surrounding quotes). I had a lot of hits when 
taking that approach.  Sorry for putting this on the web, but I can't 
contact you offlist without an email address.  :-)

Best regards and happy surfing!

Charles


At 01:45 AM 4/19/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
>     Could some kind soul please contact me off-List with some links to 
> sites that list various combat formation TO&Es?  I've tried Google until 
> my eyes crossed with no avail.  As you all well know, I'm not the 
> sharpest tool in the shed and my surfing abilities suffer as a consequence.
>     The recent TML thread discussing unit TO&Es and the well deserved 
> praise for Mr. Berry's accomplishments regarding them in GT:GF gave me 
> cause to flush all the unit descriptions in my "Dirty Little War" project.
>     Specifically, I'm interested in TO&Es from the turn of the last 
> century, say the 1905/Russo-Japanese War to 1918/Great War range.  This 
> implies large squad automatic weapons, clunky AFVs, and early combat aircraft.
>     Thank you.
>
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Larsen
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
>http://www.hotmail.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEHIGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

So did the Japanese fleet arm, so did the Soviets during the
early part of the war.

I think putting officers in charge of planes is mainly the cool
factor.  The person actually steering any navy ship is an EM
I believe, rather low of the totem pole too.  Larsen can correct
me if I'm wrong

OB TrAV
If you think about there is little difference between a Grav Tank and a
fighter at high enough TL's.  Does anyone seriously think it's just
officers driving all those grav tanks.

jml
______________________
Military -- Bangs for the Buck
Hunters  -- Bucks for the Bang
______________________
:
:
:

That being said, during WWII the Germans used enlisted pilots, as did the
RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying sergeants, since they thought
there was no reason to tie up perfectly good officers in what was
essentially a technical skill.  That died as carriers came to the fore, and
more Marines came to be stationed on ships. Many of the old Flying
Sergeants received reserve commissions as officers, while retaining their
permanent rank as enlisted men.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:36:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:36:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
References: <20020420004404.79A6F279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008201c1e814$658fd700$265d8690@computer>

> From: Michael Cessna
>   Pilots are officers because the military does not
> want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....

No.  The 'pilots are officers' thing dates all the way back to the
beginnings of military aviation.

The logic, presumably, was that a pilot was a gentleman and an educated
professional, of a higher social class to the mere tradesmen and mechanics
that worked on the ground.

There have been exceptions - "Flight Sergeants" occasionally served as
pilots in WWII.

Winston Churchill's comments on Naval Tradition apply to the traditions of
other services too, to a considerable extent.  Don't try to find present day
logic in them.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!

He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.

What I want to know is:
a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
Science?
b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?
c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:40:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:40:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <008301c1e814$662e8800$265d8690@computer>

> From: "Andy Brick"
> Do you really still generate worlds with just the basic rules ? Or do you
> use the World Builder's Handbook, or Book 6, or First In ?

Actually, I do just use the basic rules.  I also often hand tweak them, but
it's data from Book 3 that I am tweaking.

I also am in the process of developing my own world gen system.  It's
basically a simplified version of Book 3 that gives a narrower set of
results.  Of course, this is for a game that treats systems as essentially
synonymous with their major starports and startowns, plus a bit of tactical
space out to the 100D limit.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
References: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419223354.02274a00@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:01 PM 4/19/2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
>That being said, during WWII the Germans used enlisted pilots, as did the 
>RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying sergeants [...]

As did the U.S. Army Air Forces.  Among many others, there was a young 
mechanic named Chuck Yeager who volunteered for the USAAF version, and were 
also eventually commissioned (that Yeager fellow went on to break the 
"sound barrier" and eventually a Generals' star).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEHJGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Now that would be one Heck of a major
Imagine selling it to your faculty advisor 
(If I pull this off, you'll never have to 
worry about funding)
Imagine your senior project (take over an 
undistinguished Midwestern college)


jml
And then there is the sister school, 'ol Miskatonic U
(motto, where student pranks are the least of your problems)


> From: Douglas Berry
> No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!

He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.

What I want to know is:
a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
Science?
b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?
c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419224704.024bf070@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:34 PM 4/19/2002, Alan Bradley wrote:
>b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?

I believe Transylvania Polygnostic University (Trans-Poly U, motto: "Know 
Enough to be Afraid") offers undergraduate and graduate degrees in both.

>c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

I dunno, but Girl Genius is one heck of a comic book, if you're at all into 
Evil Medicine and Mad Science.  See: http://www.steamenginetime.com/


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F262jQlc7vtdFq7ImxU00001228@hotmail.com>

From: Charles McKnight <res0i3sf@verizon.net>

     Try searching for the term "table of organization and equipment"   
(include the surrounding quotes).


Mr. McKnight,

     Thanks for the tip.  As way of illustrating my dearth of research 
skills, I've been mindlessly typing "TO&E" into various search engines.  I 
never thought to actually SPELL the acronym out!  Did I mention that my head 
comes to a point?

     "Sorry for putting this on the web, but I can't contact you offlist 
without an email address.  :-)"

     Yet another example of typical Whipsnadian brain flatulence.  I ask the 
kind folk of the TML to contact me off-List and then neglect to provide the 
address.  Did I mention that my head comes to a point?
     Thanks again for your help.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <F55rVycmnh1OcA5ZWae0000d381@hotmail.com>

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>

     "I dunno, but Girl Genius is one heck of a comic book,..."



Mr. Wildstar,

     Perhaps the finest comic book series of the last half century is "Reid 
Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman".
     The seminal work gave us such lines as "I'm not bald, I get my hair cut 
this way." and "Seventy nine cents or I piss on your flowers."  Surely, the 
last alone puts "Fleming" in the canon of timeless Western literature.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <F55rVycmnh1OcA5ZWae0000d381@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:20:23AM +0000
References: <F55rVycmnh1OcA5ZWae0000d381@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020419212734.A1287@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:20:23AM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> 
>      Perhaps the finest comic book series of the last half century is "Reid 
> Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman".
>      The seminal work gave us such lines as "I'm not bald, I get my hair cut 
> this way." and "Seventy nine cents or I piss on your flowers."  Surely, the 
> last alone puts "Fleming" in the canon of timeless Western literature.

Now if I could only lay my hands on an issue.  Are they still in print?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In love, she who gives her portrait promises the original.  --Bruton 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204200336.EOZ00886@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>Subject: Re: [TML] Radioactivity Rules  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:20:23AM +0000, Larsen E. 
>Whipsnade wrote:
>> 
>>      Perhaps the finest comic book series of the last half 
>>century is "Reid 
>> Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman".
>>      The seminal work gave us such lines as "I'm not bald, 
>>I get my hair cut 
>> this way." and "Seventy nine cents or I piss on your 
>>flowers."  Surely, the 
>> last alone puts "Fleming" in the canon of timeless Western 
literature.
>
>Now if I could only lay my hands on an issue.  Are they 
still in print?
>
>-- 


I still like my Flaming Carrot.  It reminded me of me - but 
instead of comic books, it was reading and re-reading 
Traveller books and supplements continuously until I had 
brain damage.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:58:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:58:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Some Info...
In-Reply-To: <OF98BD72DE.DB3A42D5-ON85256B9F.005EA550@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEOAHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

William Lane wrote :
> do we have any Aeronautical Engineers on the list?

I'm primarily avionics, but I was cross-trained so I could be
ground crew for the RNZAF aerobatic team.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 23:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 19 22:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEOPHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> On 18 Apr 2002 at 6:46, Daniel Tackett wrote:
> The modern system has its origins in Medieval Europe,
> with knigh's evolving into the aristocratic officer
> class, etc.

Actually, it went the other way.
Peasants were given commissions from the crown so that they could
order around knights and other nobles, or so that lower ranking
nobles with better tactical capabilities could order around
higher-ranking nobles.

Commissions were actually a practical way of dealing with the
military problems involved in your military hierarchy being the
same as the hierarchy of your hereditary nobility.

> > I think it instills elitism in the wrong kind of
> > people and the wrong kind of people are less likely to
> > be patient enough for a couple of years as a grunt.
>
> That's also my feeling.

There is an extremely fine speech on leadership given by the then
commanding officer at Fort Sheridan, Major C.A. Bach,  who also
"came from the ranks" that is just as relevant today as when it
was given at the turn of the century. I'll see if I can dig out a
copy and post it, as while parts of it  are a little
anachronisitic, the core concepts, I believe, fit well with
Traveller's "Rule by men, not laws"

> > Not to say that we don't have some fine officers now,
> > but they still need to know what it's like to be
> > treated like a pawn in a chess game. I doubt this
> > ideology would work well for pilots though.
>
> Pilots are made into officers for reasons of tradition
> and there's no real reason for them to be, no matter
> what they might say on this.

It's not tradition. The Air Force (any air force) is too young to
have traditions. <grin>

Pilots in the New Zealand Air Force are currently, and have been
for the last twenty odd years or so, officers so that they can
order around grunt officers when they are on their aircraft (the
same reason that a Naval officer is always put in charge of any
ship carrying troops, even though you don't have to be an officer
to command a ship in the Navy), and also because we've got so few
of them that it would be difficult if one or two were enlisted
and the others weren't, as they wouldn't be able to (legally)
drink together.

The RNZAF had sergeant pilots druring World War II, and also
during the Malaysian 'adventure'.

In a larger air forces, including the U.K., the US, and the USSR,
and especially in combat wings, not all pilots are (or were)
officers. It's possible all UK pilots are now officers, seeing as
the UK has also been reducing it's spending, but there were
sergeant and warrant officer pilots in the R.A.F. definitely as
late as the fifities, and also in the US Army Air Corp in Vietnam
in the late sixties/early seventies, to mention examples where I
have personal knowledge.

However all pilots AFAIK have had rank of some sort, the lowest
I'm aware of is "corporal" pilots in Soviet Frontal Aviation.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 23:45:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 19 22:45:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020419212734.A1287@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOPHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

As I promised in another post here is the text of a speech on
leadership given by Major C.A. Bach
While parts of it are a little anachronistic, the core concepts,
I believe, fit well with Traveller.

Know Your Men, Your Business and Yourself
by Major C. A. Bach, US Army

In a short time each of you men will control the lives of a
certain number of other men. You will have in your charge loyal
but untrained citizens, who look to you for instruction and
guidance. Your word will be their law. Your most casual remark
will be remembered. Your mannerism will be aped. Your clothing,
your carriage, your vocabulary, your manner of command will be
imitated.

When you join your organization you will find there a willing
body of men who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that
will command their respect, their loyalty and their obedience.
They are perfectly ready and eager to follow you so long as you
can convince them that you have those qualities. When the time
comes that they are satisfied you do not possess them you might
as well kiss yourself goodbye. Your usefulness in that
organization is at an end.

From the standpoint of society, the world may be divided into
leaders and followers. The professions have their leaders, the
financial world has its leaders. We have religious leaders, and
political leaders, and society leaders. In all this leadership it
is difficult, if not impossible, to separate from the element of
pure leadership that selfish element of personal gain or
advantage to the individual, without which such leadership would
lose its value.

It is in the military service only, where men freely sacrifice
their lives for a faith, where men are willing to suffer and die
for the right or the prevention of a great wrong, that we can
hope to realise leadership in its most exalted and disinterested
sense. Therefore, when I say leadership, I mean military
leadership.

In a few days the great mass of you men will receive commissions
as officers. These commissions will not make you leaders; they
will merely make you officers. They will place you in a position
where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
attributes. But you must make good - not so much with the men
over you as with the men under you.

Men must and will follow into battle officers who are not
leaders, but the driving power behind these men is not enthusiasm
but discipline. They go with doubt and trembling, and with an
awful fear tugging at their heartstrings that prompts the
unspoken question, &#8220;What will he do next?&#8221;

Such men obey the letter of their orders but no more. Of devotion
to their commander, of exalted enthusiasm, which scorns personal
risk, of their self-sacrifice to ensure his personal safety, they
know nothing. Their legs carry them forward because their brain
and their training tell them they must go. Their spirit does not
go with them.
Great results are not achieved by cold, passive, unresponsive
soldiers. They don't go very far and they stop as soon as they
can. Leadership not only demands but receives the willing,
unhesitating, unfaltering obedience and loyalty of other men; and
a devotion that will cause them when the time comes to follow
their uncrowned king to bell and back again if necessary.

You will ask yourselves "Of just what, then, does leadership
consist? What must I do to become a leader? What are the
attributes of leadership and how can 1 cultivate them?"

Leadership is a composite of a number of qualities. Among the
most important I would list self-confidence, moral ascendancy,
self-sacrifice, paternalism, fairness, initiative, decision,
dignity, courage.

Let me discuss these with you in detail.

Self-confidence results, first, from exact knowledge, second, the
ability to impart that knowledge and, third, the feeling of
superiority over others that naturally follows. All these give
the officer poise.

To lead, you must know, you may bluff all your men some of the
time, but you can't do it all the time. Men will not have
confidence in an officer unless he knows his business, and he
must know it from the ground up.

The officer should know more about paperwork than his first
sergeant and company clerk put together, he should know more
about messing than his mess sergeant, more about diseases of the
horse than his troop farrier. He should be at least as good a
shot as any man in his company.

If the officer does not know, and demonstrates the fact that he
does not know, it is entirely human for the soldier to say to
himself, "To hell with him. He doesn't know as much about this as
I do", and calmly disregard the instruction received.

There is no substitute for accurate knowledge. Become so well
informed that men will hunt you up to ask questions - that your
brother officers will say to one another, "Ask Smith - he knows".

And not only should each officer know thoroughly the duties of
his own grade, but he should study those of the two grades next
above him. A two-fold benefit attaches to this. He prepares
himself for duties which may fall to his lot at any time during
battle; he further gains a broader viewpoint which enables him to
appreciate the necessity for the issuance of orders and join more
intelligently in their execution.

Not only must the officer know, but he must learn to stand on his
feet and speak without embarrassment.
1 am told that in British training camps student officers are
required to deliver ten-minute talks on any subject they may
choose. That is excellent practice. For to speak clearly one must
think clearly; and clear, logical thinking expresses itself in
definite, positive orders.

While self-confidence is the result of knowing more than your
men, moral ascendancy over them is based upon your belief that
you are the better man. To gain and maintain this ascendancy you
must have self-control, physical vitality and endurance and moral
force.

You must have yourself so well in hand that, even though in
battle you are scared stiff, you will never show fear. For if you
by so much as a hurried movement or a trembling of the hand, or a
change of expression, or a hasty order hastily revoked, indicate
your mental condition it will be reflected in your men in a far
greater degree.

In garrison or camp many instances will arise to try your temper
and wreck the sweetness of your disposition. If at such times you
&#8220;fly off the handle&#8221; you have no business to be in charge of men.
For men in anger say and do things that they almost invariably
regret afterwards.

An officer should never apologise to his men., also an officer
should never be guilty of an act for which his sense of justice
tells him he should apologise.

Another element in gaining moral ascendancy lies in the
possession of enough physical vitality and endurance to withstand
the hardships to which you and your men are subjected, and a
dauntless spirit that enables you not only to accept them
cheerfully but to minimise their magnitude.

Make light of your troubles, belittle your trials, and you will
help vitally to build up within your organization an esprit whose
value in time of stress cannot be measured.

Moral force is the third element in gaining moral ascendancy. To
exert moral force you must live clean, you must have sufficient
brain power to see the right and the will to do right.

Be an example to your men. An officer can be a power for good or
power for evil. Don&#8217;t preach to them - that will be worse than
useless. Live the kind of life you would have them lead, and you
will be surprised to see the number that will imitate you.

A loud-mouthed, profane captain who is careless of his personal
appearance will have a loud mouthed, profane, dirty company.
Remember what I tell you. Your company will be the reflection of
yourself. If you have a rotten company it will be because you are
a rotten captain.

Self sacrifice is essential to leadership. You will give, give
all the time. You will give of yourself physically, for the
longest hours, the hardest work and the greatest responsibility
is the lot of the captain. He is the first man up in the morning
and the last man in at night. He works while others sleep.

You will give of yourself mentally, in sympathy and appreciation
for the troubles of men in your charge. This one&#8217;s mother has
died, and that one has lost all his savings in a bank failure.
They may desire help, but more than anything else they desire
sympathy.

Don&#8217;t make the mistake of turning such men down with the
statement that you have troubles of your own, for every time that
you do you knock a stone out of the foundation of your house.
Your men are your foundation, and your house leadership will
tumble about your ears unless it rests securely upon them.

Finally, you will give of your own slender financial resources.
You will frequently spend your money to conserve the health or
well being of your men or to assist them when in trouble.
Generally you get your money back. Very infrequently you must
charge it to profit and loss.

When I say that paternalism is essential to leadership I use the
term in its better sense. I do not now refer to that form of
paternalism which robs men of initiative, self-reliance, and
self- respect. I refer to the paternalism that manifests itself
in a watchful care for the comfort and welfare of those in your
charge.

Soldiers are much like children. You must see that they have
shelter, food, and clothing, the best that your utmost efforts
can provide. You must be far more solicitous of their comfort
than of your own. You must see that they have food to eat before
you think of your own, that they have each as good a bed as can
be provided before you consider where you will sleep. You must
look after their health. You must conserve their strength by not
demanding needless exertion or useless labour.

And by doing all these things you are breathing life into what
would be otherwise a mere machine. You are creating a soul in
your organization that will make the mass respond to you as
though it were one man. And that is esprit.

And when your organization has this esprit you will wake up some
morning and discover that the tables have been turned; that
instead of your constantly looking out for them they have,
without even a hint from you, taken up the task of looking out
for you. You will find that a detail is always there to see that
your tent, if you have one, is promptly pitched, that the most
and the cleanest bedding is brought to your tent; that from some
mysterious source two eggs have been added to your supper when no
one else has any, that an extra man is helping your men give your
horse a super grooming, that your wishes are anticipated, that
every man is Johnny-on-the-spot. And then you have arrived.

Fairness is another element without which leadership can neither
be built up nor maintained. There must be first that fairness
which treats all men justly. I do not say alike, for you cannot
treat all men alike - that would be assuming that all men are cut
from the same piece; that there is no such thing as individuality
or a personal equation.

You cannot treat all men alike; a punishment that would be
dismissed by one man with a shrug of the shoulders is mental
anguish for another. A company commander, who for a given offence
has a standard punishment that applies to all is either too
indolent or too stupid to study the personality of his men. In
his case justice is certainly blind.

Study your men as carefully as a surgeon studied a difficult
case. And when you are sure of your diagnosis apply the remedy.
And remember that you apply the remedy to effect a cure, not
merely to see the victim squirm. It may be necessary cut deep,
but when you are satisfied as to your diagnosis don&#8217;t be divided
from your purpose by any false sympathy for the patient.

Hand in band with fairness in awarding punishment walks fairness
in giving credit. Everybody hates a human hog.
When one of your men has accomplished an especially creditable
piece of work, see that he gets the proper reward. Turn heaven
and earth upside down to get it for him. Don&#8217;t try to take it
away from him and hog it for yourself. You may do this and get
away with it, but you have lost the respect and loyalty of your
men. Sooner or later your brother officers will hear of it and
shun you like a leper. In war there is glory enough for all. Give
the man under you his due. The man who always takes and never
gives is not a leader. He is a parasite.

There is another kind of fairness - that which will prevent an
officer from abusing the privileges of his rank - when you exact
respect from soldiers be sure you treat them with equal respect.
Build up their manhood and self-respect - don&#8217;t try to pull it
down.

For an officer to be overbearing and insulting in the treatment
of enlisted men is the act of a coward. He ties the man to a tree
with the rope of discipline and then strikes him in the face,
knowing full well that the man cannot strike back.

Consideration, courtesy, and respect from officers towards
enlisted men are not incompatible with discipline. They are parts
of our discipline. Without initiative and decision no man can
expect to lead.

In manoeuvres you will frequently see, when an emergency arises,
certain men calmly give instant orders which later, on analysis,
prove to be, if not exactly the right thing, very nearly the
right thing to have done. You will see other men in emergency
become badly rattled; their brains refuse to work, or they give a
hasty order, revoke it; give another, revoke that; in short, show
every indication of being in a blue funk.

Regarding the first man you may say &#8220;That man is a genius. He
hasn&#8217;t had time to reason this thing out. He acts intuitively&#8221;.

Forget it.

&#8220;Genius is merely the capacity for taking infinite pains&#8221;.

The man who was ready is the man who has prepared himself. He has
studied beforehand the possible situation that might arise, he
has made tentative plans covering such situations. When he is
confronted by the emergency he is ready to meet it.

He must have sufficient mental alertness to appreciate the
problem that confronts him and the power of quick reasoning to
determine what changes are necessary in his already formulated
plan. He must have also the decision to order the execution and
stick to his orders.

Any reasonable order in an emergency is better than no order. The
situation is there. Meet it. It is better to do something and do
the wrong thing than to hesitate, hunt around for the right thing
to do and wind up by doing nothing at all. And, having decided on
a line of action, stick to it. Don&#8217;t vacillate. Men have no
confidence in an officer who doesn't&#8217;t know his own mind.

Occasionally you will be called upon to meet a situation which no
reasonable human being could anticipate. If you have prepared
yourself to meet other emergencies which you could anticipate the
mental training you have thereby gained will enable you to act
promptly and with calmness.

You must frequently act without orders from higher authority.
Time will not permit you to wait for them. Here again enters the
importance of studying the work of officers above you. If you
have a comprehensive grasp of the entire situation and can form
an idea of the general plan of your superiors, that and your
previous emergency training will enable you to determine that the
responsibility is yours and to issue the necessary orders without
delay.

The element of personal dignity is important in military
leadership. Be the friend of your men, but do not become their
intimate. Your men should stand in awe of you - not fear. If your
men presume to become familiar it is your fault, not theirs. Your
actions have encouraged them to do so.

And, above all things, don&#8217;t cheapen yourself by courting their
friendship or currying their favour. They will despise you for
it. If you are worthy of their loyalty and respect and devotion
they will surely give all these without asking. If you are not,
nothing that you can do will win them.

And then I would mention courage. Moral courage you need as well
as physical courage- that kind of moral courage which enables you
to adhere without faltering to a determined course of action
which your judgement has indicated as the one best suited to
secure the desired results.

Every time you change your orders without obvious reason you
weaken your authority and impair the confidence of your men. Have
the moral courage to stand by your order and see it through.

Moral courage further demands that you assume the responsibility
for your own acts. If your subordinates have loyally carried out
your orders and the movement you directed is a failure, the
failure is yours, not theirs. Yours would have been the honour
had it been successful. Take the blame if it results in disaster.
Don&#8217;t try to shift it to a subordinate and make him the goat.
That is a cowardly act.

Furthermore you will need moral courage to determine the fate of
those under you. You will frequently be called upon for
recommendations for the promotion or demotion of officers and
non-commissioned officers in your immediate command.

Keep clearly in mind your personal integrity and the duty you owe
your country. Do not let yourself be deflected from a strict
sense of justice by feelings of personal friendship. If your own
brother is your second lieutenant, and you find him unfit to hold
his commission, eliminate him. If you don&#8217;t, your lack of moral
courage may result in the loss of valuable lives.

If, on the other hand, you are called upon for a recommendation
concerning a man whom, for personal reasons you thoroughly
dislike, do not fail to do him full justice. Remember that your
aim is the general good, not the satisfaction of an individual
grudge.

I am taking it for granted that you have physical courage. I need
not tell you how necessary that is. Courage is more than bravery.
Bravery is fearlessness - the absence of fear. The nearest dolt
may be brave, because he lacks the mentality to appreciate his
danger; he does&#8217;t know enough to be afraid.

Courage, however, is that firmness of spirit, that moral
backbone, which, while fully appreciating the danger involved,
nevertheless goes on with the undertaking. Bravery is physical;
courage is mental and moral. You may be cold all over, your hands
may tremble; your legs may quake; your knees be ready to give
way - that is fear. If, nevertheless, you go forward; if in spite
of this physical defection you continue to lead your men against
the enemy, you have courage.

All physical manifestations of fear will pass away. You may never
experience them but once. They are the &#8220;buck fever&#8221; of the hunter
who tries to shoot his first deer. You must not give way to them.

A number of years ago, while taking a course in demolitions, the
class of which I was a member was handling dynamite. The
instructor said regarding its manipulation &#8220;I must caution you
gentlemen to be careful in the use of these explosives. One man
has but one accident.&#8221; And so I would caution you. If you give
way to the fear that will doubtless beset you in your first
action, if you show the white feather, if you let your men go
forward while you hunt a shell crater, you will never again have
the opportunity of leading those men.

Use judgement in calling on your men for display of physical
courage or bravery. Don&#8217;t ask any man to go where you would not
go yourself. If your common sense tells you that the place is too
dangerous for you to venture into; then it is too dangerous for
him. You know his life is as valuable to him as yours is to you.

Occasionally some of your men must be exposed to danger which you
cannot share. A message must be taken across a fire-swept zone.
You call for volunteers. If your men know you and know that you
are &#8216;right&#8217; you will never lack volunteers, for they will know
your heart is in your work, that you are giving your country the
best you have; that you would willingly carry the message
yourself if you could. Your example and enthusiasm will have
inspired them.

And lastly, if you aspire to leadership, I would urge you to
study men. Get under their skins and find out what is inside.
Some men are quite different from what they appear to be on the
surface. Determine the workings of their minds.

Much of General Robert E. Lee&#8217;s success as a leader may be
ascribed to his ability as a psychologist. He knew most of his
opponents from West Point days, knew the workings of their minds,
and he believed that they would do certain things under certain
circumstances. In nearly every case he was able to anticipate
their movements and block the execution.

You do not know your opponent in this war in the same way. But
you can know your own men. You can study each to determine
wherein lies his strength and his weakness; which man can be
relied upon to the last gasp and which cannot.

~~~~~~~

The document I have ends here, though it looks like perhaps there
should be a little more to it.

A note attached to the copy I have reads :
"C. A. Bach enlisted in the Thirteenth Minnesota Infantry of the
National Guard and served as a sergeant with the regiment in the
Philippines. Promoted to a Lieutenancy in the Thirty-sixth US
volunteer Infantry, he transferred in the Regular Establishment
as a first lieutenant in the Seventh Cavalry and advanced therein
to his majority.

His analysis of how to be a leader &#8211; an address delivered to the
graduating officers of the Second Training Camp at Fort
Sheridan - so moved the Reserve officers of his battalion, that
they besieged him for copies. The Waco (Texas) &#8216;Daily Times
Herald&#8217;, learning of the great interest the speech had aroused,
obtained a copy and printed it verbatim in January 1918.

A copy of the speech was inserted in the Congressional Record by
Senator Henrik Shipstead of Minnesota in November 1942, and
printed as Congressional Document 289. All of us who were NROTC
students at the University of Washington in 1943 were given
copies and, since the document is no longer in print, may I urge
you to reprint, in its entirety, what is generally regarded as
the best composition on &#8216;Leadership&#8217; ever recorded?&#8221;

I received this document from a Warrant Officer with whom I
served, W.O Brian Reid, one who also ended up getting a
commission as a Squadron Leader, and became the T.O of RNZAF base
Wigram shortly before it was closed for flying duties.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 00:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 23:21:03 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420000950.04392b20@rollanet.org>

>
>
>That's why I've always found emphasis on democracy to be more than a
>little foolish.  Certainly, it appears that democracy has the best
>chance of ensuring liberty--but it is just as capable of ensuring
>tyranny.  I don't care who rules or how, so long as I am free.  If a
>king, an emperor or the Great Purple Poobah of Penglesh ensures my
>liberties, I'll quite happily be a subject.

"In contradiction," answered signor Ottaviano, "I will deploy just one 
argument, namely, that there only three forms of sound government: 
monarchy, the rule of the good (in the ancient world called the optimates) 
and government by the citizens. And the degenerate and lawless forms taken 
by these systems when they are ruined and corrupted are, in place of 
monarchy, tyranny, in place of the best, government by a few powerful men, 
and in place of the citizens, government by the common people, which wrecks 
the constitution and surrenders complete power to the control of the multitude.

--excerpt from The Book of the Courtier (1528) by Baldesar Castiglione
translated 1967 by George Bull

It's an old debate.


--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 00:23:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 23:23:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <B8E5C044.577B2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420003838.0435ca70@rollanet.org>

At 02:38 PM 4/19/02, you wrote:
>on 4/19/02 12:32 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> > or no reason for them to be grunts first?
> >
>
>The Air Force doesn't have 'grunts'.  Didn't you know that?  They have
>technicians (Excepting Para Rescue and a few other oddballs who'd probably
>be happier in the Army or Marines. :)
>
>--

They do have those base security teams that get a whopping whole two weeks 
of ground combat training. I've even heard that during some part of those 
two weeks the trainees actually sleep in real tents on the ground.


------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com

Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.

--John Ciardi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 03:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 20 02:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020420004404.79A6F279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16yrdg-0001rp-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

"Samuel Weiss" <samwise1@msn.com> wrote:

> Don't forge the influence of Rand on Libertarianism.
> And of course, don't forget that the current Libertarian party
> leadership fully believes in guilt by association. Consider the habits of Rand
>  and the later writings of Heinlein and then consider what they say about
> Libertarians.
 
I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and 
that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually 
fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine 
sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas 
all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.

Libertarianism is in itself an oddly changeable term.  It was 
originated in (IIRC) the first few decades of the 20th century (maybe 
the 1920s) as a name fo Anarchists that avoided the negative label.

By the 1960s and early 1970s is was a (by modern standards) 
fairly leftist organization that promoted ideas like legalized drugs 
and Milton Freidman's proposal for a negative income tax (a brilliant 
proposal that was deemed by the then libertarians to be both fair 
and as an excellent method for eliminating poverty).  In the late 
1970s and early 1980s the libertarian movement was transformed 
into an organization that had far more of a focus on cutting taxes 
and preserving private property rights at all costs, in essence it 
went from primarily promoting social changes to promoting 
economic ones.  Having talked to some older (and rather bitter 
libertarians, it seems clear that at least part of the change in the 
movement came from outsiders co-opting the party (although some 
of the change was also internal).  

ObTrav, in several hundred years it would be interesting to note 
how various organizations have changed. A Feudal Technocracy 
could easily go from being a technocratic meritocracy to being a 
static and rigid system of technological oriented castes and still 
maintain the same designation.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  

  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 06:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat Apr 20 05:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16yrdg-0001rp-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <003801c1e868$a68e21e0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of
sneadj@mindspring.com
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 02:58
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism


Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
eliminate poverty?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 08:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 20 07:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b@aol.com>

--part1_8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b_boundary
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> I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and 
> that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually 
> fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine 
> sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas 
> all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.

Heinlein was, by all accounts, a minarchist - he believed that
government was a necessary evil. Insofar as you can discover his
political stance from his writings he wasn't an anarchist at all (and
he *certainly* wasn't a fascist :-/). I think his political views were
built out of faith in the soldier's virtues, along with nostalgia for the
kind of Western-frontier society that was already dying out when
he was born.

Rand was actually not a libertarian, and held libertarians in disdain.
Mostly because the people using the label at the time were much
into legalizing narcotics, as you point out. I suppose you could
also call her a minarchist, although to be sure she arrived at that
position through some of the strangest ethical notions I've ever
come across. She did have one or two useful insights, but for the
most part she strikes me as the last and most vocal advocate for
Social Darwinism.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and 
<BR>&gt; that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually 
<BR>&gt; fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine 
<BR>&gt; sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas 
<BR>&gt; all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.
<BR>
<BR>Heinlein was, by all accounts, a minarchist - he believed that
<BR>government was a necessary evil. Insofar as you can discover his
<BR>political stance from his writings he wasn't an anarchist at all (and
<BR>he *certainly* wasn't a fascist :-/). I think his political views were
<BR>built out of faith in the soldier's virtues, along with nostalgia for the
<BR>kind of Western-frontier society that was already dying out when
<BR>he was born.
<BR>
<BR>Rand was actually not a libertarian, and held libertarians in disdain.
<BR>Mostly because the people using the label at the time were much
<BR>into legalizing narcotics, as you point out. I suppose you could
<BR>also call her a minarchist, although to be sure she arrived at that
<BR>position through some of the strangest ethical notions I've ever
<BR>come across. She did have one or two useful insights, but for the
<BR>most part she strikes me as the last and most vocal advocate for
<BR>Social Darwinism.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 08:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 20 07:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
Message-ID: <200204201431.EPV00623@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Frank Pitt
<snip long post>

The most important quality I saw that was necessary and often 
missing in officers was the ability to properly delegate.

This bit of advice comes down through history in the form of 
the world's first recorded advice from a father-in-law, from 
Jethro, to his son-in-law Moses.

If you can't delegate, you can't lead.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 09:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Apr 20 08:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freelance Traveller is now Fan Site of the Week at RPGNews!
Message-ID: <o913cukv513imfb9up0a45fmfejbbava7u@4ax.com>

I just checked the site (http://www.rpgnews.rpghost.com/fansite.php) and
Freelance Traveller is the featured site right now!

:)

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 10:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 20 09:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEHJGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420084435.009e89f0@mindspring.com>

At 07:40 PM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > From: Douglas Berry
> > No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!
>
>He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
>superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.
>
>What I want to know is:
>a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
>Science?

Mad Science, I'd say.. he seemed to be more the engineer type.

>b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?

Illuminati Univeristy.

>c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

Fnord.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 11:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sat Apr 20 10:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420003838.0435ca70@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <20020420171222.30654.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

> >
> >The Air Force doesn't have 'grunts'.  Didn't you
> know that? 
 Yes, I was using the term loosely in reference to
enlisted personnel.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 11:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Apr 20 10:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204201736.g3KHaCP25223@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 00:08:07 +1200
>Subject: Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
...
>>   I'm almost of the opinion that officers 
>> > > should be enlisted first
>> Amen to that. Was it ever like that though?
>
>Not that I know of. 

  Arguably this applied in certain periods of 
Roman history, and perhaps in some other classical
armies (where maybe only members of the right
classes might act as commanders, but far from all
of those eligible would fight except as ordinary
soldiers).

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 12:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Apr 20 11:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>
References: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3cc06819.475761@post.demon.co.uk>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:

>     Specifically, I'm interested in TO&Es from the turn of the last=20
>century, say the 1905/Russo-Japanese War to 1918/Great War range.  This=20
>implies large squad automatic weapons, clunky AFVs, and early combat=20
>aircraft.

No on-line sources, I'm afraid, but my copy of the World War One
Sourcebook ISBN 1-85409-351-7 has lots of the information you're
looking for.  As an example, this is the TO&E of a British Infantry
division in 1918:

Three infantry brigades, each comprising three battalions and a trench
mortar battery. (so 9 infantry battalions and 3 mortar batteries
total).

The platoon was the basic manoeuvre unit.  It was divided into 4
sections (with 6-10 people each) plus a light machine gun section
(Lewis guns) and headquarters section (officer, NCO, 2 runners).  One
of the infantry sections was made up of specially-trained bombers
(grenadiers).

=46our platoons plus a headquarters unit made up a rifle company.

=46our companies plus an HQ unit made up a battalion.  Earlier in the
war the battalion HQ unit included a heavy machine gun section
(Vickers); these guns were later withdrawn and concentrated at
divisional level.  A battalion was nominally 977 rifles, 36 Lewis
guns.

It was standard practice for a battalion to leave behind a cadre of
troops before going into action (the "battle surplus") so the unit
could be rebuilt if it suffered major losses.

Three battallions made up an infantry brigade.  By 1918, a brigade
also included a trench mortar battery (eight 3" mortars each).

Three brigades made up a division.  (ie, 9 infantry battalions).

The division also included the following support elements:

Artillery: Two artillery brigades, with a total of six field batteries
(six 18-pounder guns each) and two howitzer batteries (six 4.5"
howitzers each).
(Earlier in the war divisions had more artillery, this was later
concentrated at corps and army level).

Two batteries (six 2" mortars each) of trench mortars.
One battalion (4 companies) of heavy machine guns. (each company with
16 Vickers guns, 64 total)

Three companies of engineers. (each with 217 men, 18 vehicles, 33
bicycles and a pontoon)
One battalion of pioneers.

Staff, signals company, three field hospitals, 21 motor ambulances,
veterinary section, employment company, divisional train (four
companies), ammunition column.
A division had 822 vehicles including 44 motorcycles and 11 motor
cars.  And, presumably, lots of horses.

Divisions were organised into corps, usually of two divisions.  Four
or five corps made up an army.

Tanks were organised into brigades, each of two battalions.  A
battalion (36 tanks) was made up of three companies, each divided into
three 4-tank sections.  Each company also had a "spare section" of 4
tanks in reserve.

Aircraft were attached at corps or army level for reconnaissance and
artillery spotting duties.


Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 12:31:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 20 11:31:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <200204201431.EPV00623@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E701D4.5797E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/20/02 7:31 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> The most important quality I saw that was necessary and often
> missing in officers was the ability to properly delegate.
> 

A problem not restricted to them either.  I sometimes wonder if the
anti-officer bias here comes from the fact that most of the prior service
were enlisted.  I've seen it from both sides.  I've seen my share of idiot
NCOs and some highly stracked Officers.  And the reverse.  I personally
don't see any great advantage in officers having served as enlisted first.

I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me with a special
insight when I had my own platoon.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 13:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat Apr 20 12:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] travlib 0.6.2
Message-ID: <20020420130659.A28851@4dv.net>

This is a message for the programmers on the list.  If you're not a
programmer, I doubt that this will be of much interest to you.

Well, once again it's time to announce another subminor release of
travlib.  This release is in many ways an aesthetic release, as
attractive code is invariably better than ugly code.  Indeed, the
corrections were inspired by mass lossage in certain parts of what I
had written.  The code base has been shrunk to 10,504 LOC, down from,
IIRC some 12-15 KLOC.  A smaller code base is a more maintainable code
base.

The most visible two correction are the regularising of both
constructor return types and the manner in which children of an object
are accessed.  As for the first, every _new() now returns a
TravMapobject*.  This is much more like the standard gtk+ way of doing
things than before, and is considerably simpler from a user
perspective.

Regarding the second, the correct way to access the children of an
object is to call trav_mapobject_get_children(),
trav_mapobject_set_children(), trav_mapobject_add_child() and
trav_mapobject_remove_child().  No more messing with
trav_galaxy_get_sectors(), trav_sector_add_subsector(),
trav_planet_set_moons() &c.  These are all logically related
activities, and it makes sense that a single suite of functions be
used.  I am going to add trav_mapobject_add_children() and
trav_mapobject_remove_children() eventually.

A side effect of this is that the children of e.g. a star are its
planets and its companion stars, and that the children of a planet are
its governments and moons.  The user can either call
trav_mapobject_get_children() and filter them on his own, or call the
appropriate class-level function.  In these cases they'd be,
respectively, trav_non_dwarf_star_get_planets(),
trav_star_get_companions(), trav_planetary_object_get_governments()
and trav_planet_get_moons().  Note that not all of these have been
written.

There has also been some slight progress with the Scheme GURPS
Traveller: First In object generation.  Nothing major yet, as
travtrack really needs to be in a more advanced state for generation
to be testable/usable &c.

On the travtrack front, I am busily working away on the galaxy and
sector browsers.  I've created a GenericBrowser base class which is
working pretty decently so far, and is much better than my old ad hoc
nonsense.  These changes are all in CVS; they've yet to be released.

The website, as ever, is <http://travtrack.sf.net/>.  If you just wish
to download files, I'd suggest <http://sf.net/projects/travtrack/>.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe
what you just said.                           --William F. Buckley, Jr.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 13:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Apr 20 12:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
References: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8e76dfb3ac3@[198.123.22.170]>

At 12:34 PM +1000 4/20/02, Alan Bradley wrote:
>  > From: Douglas Berry
>>  No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!
>
>He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
>superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.
>
>What I want to know is:
>a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
>Science?
>b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?

Illuminati University of course....

>c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

If you have to ask, you wouldn't survive....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Apr 20 13:11:02 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420000950.04392b20@rollanet.org>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420000950.04392b20@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <3cc1ca9e.6194791@post.demon.co.uk>

Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org> writes:

>--excerpt from The Book of the Courtier (1528) by Baldesar Castiglione
>translated 1967 by George Bull
>
>It's an old debate.

Even older than that, since Castiglione was simply paraphrasing
Aristotle's 'Politics' written in about 340 BC...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 14:13:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 20 13:13:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
Message-ID: <200204202010.EQF02707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>
>I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me 
>with a special insight when I had my own platoon.
>

I think it's better to find out that someone can't delegate 
when they're an NCO (or even a corporal) rather then after we 
waste the money to make them an officer.

Of course, I don't believe that leadership can be "taught".  
Talent in this area can be nurtured, grown, and refined, but 
never "taught".  If you can't lead or delegate to begin with, 
no amount of training is going to make a difference.

One other area of "talent" that isn't easily remedied by 
training - tactical ability, and an ability to implement that 
tactical brilliance in your platoon. All platoon drills 
aside -- can you and your men really fight?  I remember 
watching platoons turning into indecisive, sleep-deprived 
zombies because no one in the chain of command, officer or 
nco, could get it all together.  There's nothing more 
unnerving to me than watching a platoon in training mill 
around in my scope when a few of them are hit with MILES 
gear.  Watching the men peep their heads in and out of the 
woodline like idiots.  Officers and NCOs scratching their 
heads and having a committee meeting to decide what to do.  I 
even remember a fat platoon sergeant ambling out into the 
open, looking up and down the danger space, trying to figure 
out where I was.

Not all platoons were this bad, thank God.  But there were 
some like that.  And I put the blame not only on the LT, but 
on the NCOs in the platoon.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 16:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 20 15:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
Message-ID: <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>

--part1_155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Hi,
   Looking for alien stats for Traveller (CT/MT) the other day on the WWWeb, 
I ran across a pretty extensive (and frankly, kind of frightening as well) 
list of Traveller-related aliens, and was wondering if folks might be able to 
help me out with stats for several species that looked pretty interesting. 
   Adduxar: Carnivorous reptilians from the Zhodani book.
   Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.
   Brinn: Spider/Crablike mix from TravDigest 12.
   Ebokin: An Octopoid from The Traveller Adventure.
   Sambiqys: Red-zoned Androids from JTAS 24.
   Murians: Stocky and hirsuite from Vanguard Reaches.

   Now I'm not looking for a huge writeup or career tables or anything like 
that; merely the information on rolling up the creature's stats (+any natural 
armor or natural weapons)
   Thanks in advance :)
   Boy, if BITS or someone knocked out a 101 Aliens that'd be compatible with 
CT/MT, I know I'D sure buy it  :)

  -Ken Murphy-
   

--part1_155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Looking for alien stats for Traveller (CT/MT) the other day on the WWWeb, I ran across a pretty extensive (and frankly, kind of frightening as well) list of Traveller-related aliens, and was wondering if folks might be able to help me out with stats for several species that looked pretty interesting. 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Adduxar: Carnivorous reptilians from the Zhodani book.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Brinn: Spider/Crablike mix from TravDigest 12.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Ebokin: An Octopoid from The Traveller Adventure.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Sambiqys: Red-zoned Androids from JTAS 24.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Murians: Stocky and hirsuite from Vanguard Reaches.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Now I'm not looking for a huge writeup or career tables or anything like that; merely the information on rolling up the creature's stats (+any natural armor or natural weapons)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks in advance :)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Boy, if BITS or someone knocked out a 101 Aliens that'd be compatible with CT/MT, I know I'D sure buy it &nbsp;:)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 18:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat Apr 20 17:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>

This from the JTAS Online article:

Jgd in Play
Jgd should only be played and handled as NPCs; in the unlikely event of any
PC interacting with one on a personal, violent level, a typical specimen has
ST 12, DX 10, IQ 12, and HT 12/25. Their tough outer integument gives them
PD 2 and DR 5, and they can have a Move and Dodge of about 4. Their internal
gas-bags make them highly vulnerable to penetrating attacks under some
circumstances, but their internal structures are complex and robust; they
never simply "burst."

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of MurfNMurf@aol.com


  Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.

  Now I'm not looking for a huge writeup or career tables or anything like
that; merely the information on rolling up the creature's stats (+any
natural armor or natural weapons)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 18:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 20 17:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] living space
Message-ID: <200204210036.EQN01344@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Just comparing a recent ship design of mine to a current 
nuclear submarine.

It looks like a modern nuclear submarine allocates far, far 
less living space that we allocate in Traveller.  In what 
appears to be the same length of hull (length of living 
quarters space), with a known beam (10 meters in the case of 
the sub, 20 meters in the case of the Traveller ship).

In roughly 176 Traveller displacement tons, the sub has over 
129 crew.  And this is being generous: part of this space is 
taken up by bridge and torpedo tubes.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 18:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr 20 17:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net>

Swordy wrote:
> Jgd should only be played and handled as NPCs;

<rant>
What?  Why should *any* character be restricted to "GM only"?  Yes, I
do include the Emperor here, having played in a campaign which had PCs
of about the same level of power.  This seems to make rather gross
assumptions about what sort of games people are playing.  I suppose
the article didn't bother to give much in the way of game information
for this race, on the pretext that "players won't ever need it".

This is one of my particular peeves: an artificial division of
characters or character types into "PC" and "NPC" is bad enough in a
lot of roleplaying games, but assigning whole *races* to "NPC only" is
just really too much.
</rant>

What unusual type of characters have other players run?

I remember having a lot of fun playing a non-sentient ship's computer
through one adventure.  It was very highly complex, and a source of
surprise to some of the other characters, but didn't have a sense of
"self" at all.

In a fantasy game, I once played a short-lived spirit for a few hours,
while my other involved character was unconscious and dying.  It was
then woven into a spell cast by one of the other characters -- in fact
the very spell that restored my original character to health.

I designed a hive-mind character for another game, an agglomeration of
dozens of individually subsentient creatures about the size of a rat,
but the GM moved away just before that game started.


So as you can imagine, an admonition that "Thou Shalt Not Play Jgd
Characters" isn't likely to sit well with me at all.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 19:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Sat Apr 20 18:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freelance Traveller is now Fan Site of the Week at RPGNews!
In-Reply-To: <o913cukv513imfb9up0a45fmfejbbava7u@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3CC1E030.30576.5FA9886@localhost>

Congrats!

Rob

On 20 Apr 2002 at 11:13, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> I just checked the site (http://www.rpgnews.rpghost.com/fansite.php) and
> Freelance Traveller is the featured site right now!
> 
> :)
> 
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

--
Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
 Spero nos familiares mansuros.
 I hope we'll still be friends.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 21:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Apr 20 20:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 21 Apr 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <jga4cuscmeas4pgo3jqh9sm37lpbf0dttu@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - A day or thereabouts after we posted the last update, we spotted that a
   whole bunch of stuff showed up corrupted - nothing fatal, but not a
   happy-making state of affairs. It's taken most of the past two weeks to
   find and fix the problems. We know how it happened; complaints have been
   made to the appropriate quarters. Apologies for any problems or
   awkwardnesses encountered because of this. 

 - Michl Hughes brings us a quick and easy method for creating TNS news
   items. You can read about it in Doing It My Way. 

 - Freelance Traveller has been selected as the RPGNews.com Fan Site of the
   Week. We're massively flattered - but it's you, the people who have
   supported our continuing efforts, that are deserving of accolades;
   without you, we wouldn't have survived. (We looked at RPGNews.com and
   are very impressed - if you're interested in multiple systems and
   settings, not just Traveller, this is a good place to start!) 

 - Michl Hughes also profiles Calypso McArthur, an ex-freedom fighter now
   scouting or the Imperium. You can meet McArthur in Up Close and
   Personal. 

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the (working!) feedback form at
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/infocenter/feedbackform.html.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to visit our site
and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our existence
possible.




Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 22:03:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 20 21:03:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>

At 11:50 AM 4/21/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Swordy wrote:
> > Jgd should only be played and handled as NPCs;
>
><rant>
>What?  Why should *any* character be restricted to "GM only"?


Because in this case the Jgd exist only in gas giant atmospheres, are 
completely unfathomable to humans, and have no real motivations that humans 
can figure out.

Playing a group of 10 meter spheres that die quickly on most Imperial 
worlds and are allergic to jump would be a bit boring.

Any it says "should," not "must."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com> <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com> <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020421150430.A6895@freeman.little-possums.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Because in this case the Jgd exist only in gas giant atmospheres,
> are completely unfathomable to humans, and have no real motivations
> that humans can figure out.

Sounds not too much unlike some people I've known :)

But seriously, I don't see anything there that makes them more
suitable as NPC material than as PC.


> Playing a group of 10 meter spheres that die quickly on most
> Imperial worlds and are allergic to jump would be a bit boring.

Doesn't sound too bad to me.  Besides, if they're suitable as an NPC
race, why aren't they suitable as PCs?  If they're boring for players
to run, presumably they're just as boring for the GM.  If they're
incomprehensible for players, they're just as incomprehensible for the
GM.


> Any it says "should," not "must."

True, although the distinction is rather slight in modern English.
Both express an obligation in that context, and usually a *moral*
obligation.  I deny that any such obligation applies.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:08:04 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006601c1e8f2$fae49aa0$1db18b90@computer>

Forwarded by: Richard Wilson
> "In contradiction," answered signor Ottaviano, "I will deploy just one
> argument, namely, that there only three forms of sound government:
> monarchy, the rule of the good (in the ancient world called the optimates)
> and government by the citizens. And the degenerate and lawless forms taken
> by these systems when they are ruined and corrupted are, in place of
> monarchy, tyranny, in place of the best, government by a few powerful men,
> and in place of the citizens, government by the common people, which
> wrecks the constitution and surrenders complete power to the control of
> the multitude.

The three 'sound' forms listed are:
monarchy
narrow oligarchy (aristocracy, I guess)
broad oligarchy

The 'degenerate and lawless' forms are:
tyranny
narrow oligarchy(!)
democracy

There isn't really much to say here.  Signor Ottaviano clearly believes
oligarchy is superior to democracy, and who are we to argue?

Tyranny is a much-maligned form of government, I might add.  In real terms,
it's simply an "illegitimate" form of monarchy.  It got its bad name due to
the fact that it usually involved aristocratic factions repressing and
driving out their rivals.  Worse, sometimes the tyrants would seek support
amongst the common rabble, rather than amongst the good, the wise and the
pious.  You know, some of these evil b*st*rds actually tried to engage in
land reform?  The worst of them were in Sparta, where they tried to extend
the franchise!  Imagine that - all those centuries of Spartan discipline
being watered down, just because some brainiac thinks that it's a bad thing
that Sparta can't actually put an effective army in the field any more!

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:10:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>

> From: Stephen Tempest
> Three battallions made up an infantry brigade.  By 1918, a brigade
> also included a trench mortar battery (eight 3" mortars each).
>
> Three brigades made up a division.  (ie, 9 infantry battalions).

The Australian army in WWI used four battalion infantry brigades.  Cavalry
brigades were three regiments (battalions) per brigade.  I'm pretty sure
this was British practice, too.  It's possible that things might have
changed in the British army by 1918 though.  The site below is interesting,
although not detailed past the battalion level:

http://www.adfa.edu.au/~rmallett/

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20420.212115.7V6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
> ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
> Sorry to take up space with this.
>
> Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in stand=
> ard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I have wrong=
> ?

See below. You are sending html to the list. Check this url for info on
how to not do so:

	http://expita.com/nomime.html

Basicly, if your editor is *giving* you a font choice for a post to a
newsgroup or mailing list, it's either misconfigured or broken.

> Sam
>
> ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <HTML><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff" STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"=
>><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Sorry to take up space with this.</DIV> <DIV>&nbs=
> p;</DIV> <DIV>Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was=
>  sent in standard format. I use arial as my font.<FONT color=3D#000000>&n=
> bsp;What other setting&nbsp;might I have wrong?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;<=
> /DIV> <DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
> ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0--
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 01:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 00:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20420.223657.0H4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Okay, I think this may be pretty complicated, and I wouldn't be surprised if 
> the answer is "Can't be done" or "Too hard" or "Go pick up a $200 Orbital 
> Dyanmics Textbook and figure it out..."
>
> But...
>
> ...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of 
> a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system from above, and the 
> primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital parameters of the planet (orbital 
> radius, eccentricity, orbital speed, reference point, etc) and the date.
>
> I'd actually like to be able to do this for _the_ solar system, that is 
> enter 
> "Nov 16 1969" and be able to plot where the planets are on X,Y paper.
>
> Now, I know that there are comercial astronomy programs (Red Shifft, etc) 
> that can do this sort of thing...but I need to try and build this into a 
> different program, so I gotta write the algorithm myself.

A couple of books I have:

Astronomy on the Personal Computer
Oliver Montenbruck & Thomas Pfleger
ISBN: 3-540-63521-1

Practical astronomy with your Personal Computer
Peter Duffet-Smith

I don't have the ISBN on that one as I have the version for calculators.

The first book even includes a disk with source code.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 01:20:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 00:20:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20420.230402.9D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
>> HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
>> during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
>> entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
>> stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
>> have they discovered in regards to this test?

For that matter, if they *did* wind up hundreds or thousands of parsecs
away, how would the folks back at the research station ever find out?

Assuming you could build a transmitter powerful enough, it takes 326
years for a radio (or laser) signal to cross 100 parsecs. So if you
can't get back on your own, nobody will ever know. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 01:23:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 00:23:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020419202918.31056.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20420.230829.0o4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> --- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
>> Paul Walker writes:
>> > 
>> > If this is the case, what would happen if there
>> were a
>> > HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump
>> (or
>> > during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
>> > entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
>> > stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
>> > have they discovered in regards to this test?
>> 
>> I wouldn't recommend engaging a jump drive while
>> sitting in the hold of a
>> ship already in jump-space. As far as the results of
>> such an event, I would
>> assume a 99.9% chance of a catastrophic catastrophy.
>> Perhaps there'd be a One in a Trillion chance that
>> the ship would end up
>> 300,000 LY away in the Andromeda Galaxy (or at the
>> exit 13A Toll Plaza on
>> the NJ Turnpike for that matter).
>
> But why?  This is the second reply I got that said it
> would be a bad thing and would probably destroy all
> ships involved.  Is there any support for this?  I'm
> not opposed to non OTU, but my original question was
> whether there was anything in the official rules
> and/or history to support or prevent such occurances?

ASs I recall, Marc Miller has stated that all that's known about
attempts to engage a jump drive of a vessel inside a ship ythat's
already in jump is that nobody who planned to try it has ever been
heard from again. 

So either both ships were destroyed or they would up too far away to
get back.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC32DFD.4695.111623B@localhost>

On 19 Apr 2002 at 12:32, Daniel Tackett wrote:

> .
> > 
> > Pilots are made into officers for reasons of
> > tradition and there's no 
> > real reason for them to be, no matter what they
> > might say on this.
> > 
> Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> or no reason for them to be grunts first?

No reason for pilots to be officers. In WWI & WWII the pilots who were 
NCOs did just fine. IIRC Chuck Yeager was a Sergeant for WWII and a 
while after.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC32FBD.15769.11838CB@localhost>

On 19 Apr 2002 at 15:35, Michael Cessna wrote:

>   Pilots are officers because the military does not
> want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
> though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
> the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
> arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
> that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
> wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
> why........

But they're okay with NCOs (sometimes JNCOs) driving/commanding over 50 
tons of AFV, or operating anti-shipping missiles. Yep. Makes sense (I'm 
sure it must do somewhere or when).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <B8E701D4.5797E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204201431.EPV00623@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC3359D.13137.12F2A22@localhost>

On 20 Apr 2002 at 11:30, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me with a
> special insight when I had my own platoon. 

My reasoning for it is quite simple - having had to lug the sections MG 
through the bush and mud for several weeks gives a person a much better 
idea of just how much more those extra pounds slow and tire a person 
compared with a normal load. Also it would act as a weeding out process 
for some of those who thought it would be fun and games, and look good 
on their CV. I'd want at least a year, preferably two and ideally you 
wouldn't be able to do the actual officer selection until after that 
time (to help stop any favouritism), though in the real world that 
wouldn't work because very few of the sort of people you want would be 
willing to gamble with two years of their life like that.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:59:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:59:30 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <200204201736.g3KHaCP25223@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3CC3359C.14671.12F2926@localhost>

On 20 Apr 2002 at 10:34, Steven Hudson wrote:

>   Arguably this applied in certain periods of 
> Roman history, and perhaps in some other classical
> armies (where maybe only members of the right
> classes might act as commanders, but far from all
> of those eligible would fight except as ordinary
> soldiers).

True. And in theory the Athens so famour for its democracy didn't have 
an officer class/caste, etc. However in practice only those born of 
wealthy and influential families would be appointed, as with Rome 
(which is why I said there weren't any I knew of).

However it's probably worth noting that in these armies (especially the 
Roman one of the late Republic and early Empire) most of the positions 
we'd consider appropriate for officers were filled by Centurions and 
their superiors, all of whom were 'from the ranks'. There were officers 
above them who weren't from the ranks, but they were few and far 
between (I seem to recall there being none until Legion level, at which 
point there was the CO and several 'staff officers', etc.). Of course 
the rank structure was quite flat by modern western standards, too.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 04:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 03:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <200204202010.EQF02707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC33777.7691.136689C@localhost>

On 20 Apr 2002 at 16:10, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Not all platoons were this bad, thank God.  But there were 
> some like that.  And I put the blame not only on the LT, but 
> on the NCOs in the platoon.

For sure. When a platoon's that bad the OC _and_ the NCOs (all of them) 
need to be hauled over the coals. If that doesn't work send 'em down 
the road - a sideways 'promtion' is a really bad idea - some other poor 
sods might be so unlucky as to be under them when it goes to custard 
someday.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 05:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sun Apr 21 04:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3CC344CF.2707.70F26D@localhost>

On 21 Apr 2002, at 15:11, Alan Bradley wrote:

> The Australian army in WWI used four battalion infantry brigades.  Cavalry
> brigades were three regiments (battalions) per brigade.  I'm pretty sure
> this was British practice, too.  It's possible that things might have
> changed in the British army by 1918 though.  The site below is interesting,
> although not detailed past the battalion level:

At the outbreak of the 1st WW the standard European infantry 
division consisted of two brigades each of two 3 battalion regiments 
(thus giving 12 battalions). The British (and consequently Dominion 
and Empire troops) used a slightly modifed TOE with three 4 
battalion brigades to a division, also giving 12 battalions (BTW the 
Russians used two brigades each with two 4 battalion regiments 
for a total of 16 battalions). This is the classic "square" division

Between 1916 and 1917, the high level of attrition and need for 
further maneuver formations lead to the Germans and French 
changing to divisions consisting of three 3 battalion regiments for a 
total of 9 battalions (this is the now standard "trianglar" division). 
This was initially done simply to get more divisions out of the same 
number of battalions (they lacked the manpower to form new 
battalions), however it was found that the change actually resulted 
in an *increase* in firepower due to the improved tactical flexibility 
of the triangular organisation.

The British stuck with their 12 battalion divisions until 1918 when 
combined attrition of four years of trench warfare finally forced them 
to adopt the triangular division as well (not to get more divisions, 
they just didn't have the manpower to keep the existing divisions at 
12 battalions any more). I think the Australians and Canadians also 
moved to the triangular formation at around the same time. 
However the New Zealanders stuck with the older 12 battalion 
organisation right till the end of the war.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 06:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 05:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML]  Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020418234703.00aa66d0@mail.pi.se>

Hello!

Leonard Erickson wrote:

 >On the other hand, unless that collision happened *really* late in the
 >formation of the system, such a plent would tend to collect a lot more
 >gas and other stuff, and possibly wind up as a mini-GG.

 From what I recall of astronomy, the gas giants form relatively early in 
the planetary creation phase, before the solar wind has dissipated the gas 
disc. Perhaps within a few million years. The terrestrial worlds 
traditionally are pictured to form over a slightly longer period, maybe ten 
times slower - the planetesimals form quickly, but building planets from 
them take a bit more time. So there is not much of gas to collect for 
terrestrial worlds unless they form very fast. The terrestrial planets 
around our solar system seem to have got most of their atmosphere from 
impacts of comet material and outgassing, even though they would probably 
be massive enough to sweep up and retain several of the gasses in the disc 
had that disc remained when they reached present size.

I believe you mentioned yourself how gas giants are pictured to spiral 
inwards from being formed outside the snow line - it is hard to picture hot 
gas giants formed in place even around systems rich in heavy elements.

Secondarily, if we take the collision-based-planet with a density of 6-6.5 
instead of 5-5.5, it isn't that exceedingly more apt to collect more gas 
even if such gas remains in large amounts when the planet has reached such 
a size. The same problem would certainly exist for a world with slightly 
larger radius than Earth yet still having a lower density of the range you 
apparently accept as possible.

What I argue is that it is possible to build higher density worlds simply 
by using the normal rock & metal mix and examples our (only) sample solar 
system can provide.

 >>Above a certain point, you get runaway accumulation of material, which
 >>results in a gas giant of some sort.

As above, that is highly dependent not only on a limiting size/temperature 
but on whether there is any significant material to accumulate in that manner.

 >Also, that major collision is just as apt to scatter pieces of those
 >rocky world halfway across the system.

I'd wager it rather is much more likely it will shatter both bodies than it 
would stick together.

However, the surviving pieces of such collisions could still form more 
iron-rich cores in further accretion. Much or even most of the disc 
material is possibly ejected from the inner system anyway.

A high-density world would probably be more likely to survive with many 
smaller impacts blasting off parts of the lighter matter than a big one. 
Thus, my initial example was not optimal. But it still is not a reason to 
completely write off planets of say, 6-6.5 density planets as unrealistic 
or exceedingly uncommon - perhaps especially around high-metalicity stars 
where it can be assumed there would be more of rocky and metallic matter to 
accrete in the inner system.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 07:57:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 06:57:33 2002
Subject: [TML] planetoid hulls for GT?
Message-ID: <3CC2C4A6.1F017BE6@mail.cswnet.com>

How can I get a planetoid hull for GT?
Would the stats be in Gurps Vehicles?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 08:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Apr 21 07:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] living space
In-Reply-To: <200204210036.EQN01344@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEOKDOAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Just comparing a recent ship design of mine to a current
>nuclear submarine.
>
>It looks like a modern nuclear submarine allocates far, far
>less living space that we allocate in Traveller.  In what
>appears to be the same length of hull (length of living
>quarters space), with a known beam (10 meters in the case of
>the sub, 20 meters in the case of the Traveller ship).
>
>In roughly 176 Traveller displacement tons, the sub has over
>129 crew.  And this is being generous: part of this space is
>taken up by bridge and torpedo tubes.

Very true. And sailors on sailing ships had even less personal space. The
question is who would want to live like that? Conditions on submarines are
so crowded that since the 1950's submarine sailors have been allotted
quarters ashore. To really appreciate this you have to realize that surface
sailors who are single have been forced to live aboard ship, even when in
port. It basically means that you have no life. Recently the navy has begun
to extend this arrangement to surface sailors, providing quarters on a space
available basis to single sailors in home ports.

Also, one should not forget that the members of navies other than the U.S.
Navy live in much better conditions. German sailors have six person rooms
for the most junior people and four person rooms for more senior enlisteds.
(Not to mention being wet when in port.)

There is also a basic difference between any kind of Earth seagoing ship and
a Traveller spacecraft. Except in wartime most surface sailors spend only
weeks at sea between port visits. There are typically years between
deployments, which are 6 months long and are generally a matter of traveling
from port to port, with no more than a few weeks actually at sea at any one
time. (There is a certain difference now, but we are at war now, so I would
not call this typical.)

If the Traveller fleets follow the sailing pattern of the ships of the days
of sail, then it is likely that they spend years away from their home ports,
not weeks. In the age of sail sailors, in the British navy anyway, were
recruited by press gang, because it was such awful work that no one wanted
to do it. They were the dregs of society.

But the Traveller navies, like the wet navies of today require sophisticated
technologically savvy crewmen. Not the kind of people that would want to
live under conditions that exist on even today's ships (one reason the U.S.
Navy has so much trouble keeping people.)

One of the easiest, and cheapest in the long run, method of keeping high
quality people is to give them decent living conditions. It is common on
merchant ships today for seamen to live in the kind of berthing used on
Traveller ships. It is my contention that by the middle of this century U.S.
Navy ships will have similar berthing, if only because that's they only way
they will be able to compete for the high quality technical people they
need.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 08:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 07:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <20020421150430.A6895@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421071925.009f7600@mindspring.com>

At 03:04 PM 4/21/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
> > Because in this case the Jgd exist only in gas giant atmospheres,
> > are completely unfathomable to humans, and have no real motivations
> > that humans can figure out.

>But seriously, I don't see anything there that makes them more
>suitable as NPC material than as PC.

The inability and lack of desire for contact with other races? Other than 
their unique environment, the Jgd are pretty boring.

> > Playing a group of 10 meter spheres that die quickly on most
> > Imperial worlds and are allergic to jump would be a bit boring.
>
>Doesn't sound too bad to me.  Besides, if they're suitable as an NPC
>race, why aren't they suitable as PCs?  If they're boring for players
>to run, presumably they're just as boring for the GM.  If they're
>incomprehensible for players, they're just as incomprehensible for the
>GM.

Remember the Star Trek episode "Is There In Truth No Beauty?"

http://www.treasure-troves.com/startrek/IsThereInTruthNoBeauty.html

The Medusan ambassador is a good example of a race that makes an 
interesting one-time encounter, or an occassional source of odd 
adventures.  Likewise the Puppeteers in Larry Niven's Known Space 
series.  What they put Beowulf Shaeffer through...

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 08:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Sun Apr 21 07:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
Message-ID: <F89TT0rafoBdDvwGB9g0001145a@hotmail.com>

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
<P>
<DIV>&lt;snip several hundred thousand exceptionally vile words&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Leonard Erickson sent me&nbsp;a link that explained how to correct things. If I did it right this should be in rtf.</DIV>
<DIV>Sorry about the html. I didn't realize this idiotic ISP program was doing that.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></P></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <a href='http://g.msn.com/1HM205401/l'>Click Here</a><br></html>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 09:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Sun Apr 21 08:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421071925.009f7600@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204210955580.27392-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
> The Medusan ambassador is a good example of a race that makes an 
> interesting one-time encounter, or an occassional source of odd 
> adventures.  Likewise the Puppeteers in Larry Niven's Known Space 
> series.  What they put Beowulf Shaeffer through...

Limiting their suitability to a single encounter alone isn't a reason to
disallowing them as PCs.  They may only be suited to a one-shot adventure
or short mini-campaign, but what's wrong with that?

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Sun Apr 21 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204210955580.27392-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <010401c1e94c$9dd5b7e0$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

If you want to use them as a pc race fine, but I find for the most part most
races make better npc then pc, . YMMV
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Carl Kettler" <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
> Limiting their suitability to a single encounter alone isn't a reason to
> disallowing them as PCs.  They may only be suited to a one-shot adventure
> or short mini-campaign, but what's wrong with that?
>
> Gregory Kettler
> "Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
> --Dave, KODT
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 10:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 09:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <F89TT0rafoBdDvwGB9g0001145a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E83217.57B30%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/21/02 7:48 AM, Samuel Weiss at samwise1@msn.com wrote:

<snip several hundred thousand exceptionally vile words>
 
Leonard Erickson sent me a link that explained how to correct things. If I
did it right this should be in rtf.
Sorry about the html. I didn't realize this idiotic ISP program was doing
that.
 


But plain text would be better.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 10:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Sun Apr 21 09:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
References: <B8E83217.57B30%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>

Or maybe not ...

*SIGH*

Sorry yet again. Is this one right?


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 10:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Sun Apr 21 09:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
References: <B8E83217.57B30%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <014201c1e951$11ada520$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Hi Sam I didn't; know you where here to we really have to stop meeting like
this :)
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message -----
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@msn.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks


> Or maybe not ...
>
> *SIGH*
>
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?
>
>
> Sam
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 11:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 10:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E83E61.57B3B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/21/02 9:19 AM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@msn.com wrote:

> Or maybe not ...
> 
> *SIGH*
> 
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?
> 

You got it.  Thanks very much!!

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 11:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Sun Apr 21 10:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
References: <20020421100312.13099279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC2FEED.CA035AA0@together.net>

> From: MurfNMurf@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 18:55:03 EDT
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Alien Help
> 
>    Hi,
>    Looking for alien stats for Traveller (CT/MT) the other day on the WWWeb,
> I ran across a pretty extensive (and frankly, kind of frightening as well)
> list of Traveller-related aliens, and was wondering if folks might be able to
> help me out with stats for several species that looked pretty interesting.
>    Adduxar: Carnivorous reptilians from the Zhodani book.
>    Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.

	There's an expanded write-up of these creatures in GT:AR4. Along with a
number of other CT aliens and a few new one. 

>    Sambiqys: Red-zoned Androids from JTAS 24.
>
	I'm not sure where the Sambiqys were written up, but it's not in JTAS
24. In either case 101 Robots has a short writeup:

664x2-A4-PQ522-MFE7(P) Cr38,356,000 840kg
Fuel=155.225 Duration=21.56 TL=17
50/122 (mesh)
4 Med Tentacles, Head (10%), 2 eyes (+2 passive IR), 2 ears, Voder, 2
olfactory sensors, Touch sensors (+extra sensitivity), taste sensor, 2
Power interfaces, brain interface, TL17 holo recorder (3D) Electronic
circuit protection, Admin-4, Emotion Stimulation. 

	If you can read the Book8 formats that should give you a start on these
as characters. 	


-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 11:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Sun Apr 21 10:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <E16yrdg-0001rp-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <DAV501sDWek3BGGtyr300019c9b@hotmail.com>

John Snead wrote,

>I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and
that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually
fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine
sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas
all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.<

Oooohhhh ....
Someone who thinks Rand is as worthless as I do. Cool!
:-P

>ObTrav, in several hundred years it would be interesting to note
how various organizations have changed. A Feudal Technocracy
could easily go from being a technocratic meritocracy to being a
static and rigid system of technological oriented castes and still
maintain the same designation.<

Or like the Imperium itself?
:)

Or even more, consider how a change in social standards over a span of 20
years could cause people to question the government designations.  Likewise
with historical revisions.
How much would it take for <insert target leader here> to shift between
Charismatic and Non-Charismatic Dictator, or even from simply head of state
under a Representative Democracy to one of the above?


Sam
(My email is reconfigured, I have 5 minutes, and now the real suffering
begins! :-P)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
Message-ID: <19f.10e2de7.29f47482@aol.com>

--part1_19f.10e2de7.29f47482_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thanks for the info :)
Ken



--part1_19f.10e2de7.29f47482_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Thanks for the info :)
<BR>Ken
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_19f.10e2de7.29f47482_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 15:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Apr 21 14:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>
References: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3cc5281d.3577404@post.demon.co.uk>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:

>The Australian army in WWI used four battalion infantry brigades.  =
Cavalry
>brigades were three regiments (battalions) per brigade.  I'm pretty sure
>this was British practice, too. =20

Yes.  To be specific, composition of a British infantry division
altered as follows:

pre-war: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions (with 24 Vickers guns)
4 brigades of artillery (54 18lb, 18 4.5", 4 60lb)
2 Co. engineers, 1 Sq. cavalry, 1 Co. cyclists, support elements

mid-1915: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions (with 48 Vickers guns)
4 brigades of artillery (54 18lb, 8 4.5")
2 Co. engineers, 1 Sq. cavalry, 1 Co. cyclists, support elements

Sept 1916: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions, a trench mortar battery
and a machine gun company (with 144 Lewis guns, 48 Vickers guns and 8
3" mortars)
4 brigades of artillery (48 18lb, 16 4.5")
4 trench mortar batteries (12 2", 4 9.45")
2-3 Co. engineers, pioneer battalion, support elements.

Apr 1917: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions, a trench mortar battery and
a machine gun company (with 192 Lewis guns, 48 Vickers guns and 8 3"
mortars)
2 brigades of artillery (36 18lb, 12 4.5")
4 trench mortar batteries (12 2", 4 9.45")
1 machine gun company (16 Vickers guns)
2-3 Co. engineers, pioneer battalion, support elements.

Oct 1918: 3 brigades each of 3 battalions and a trench mortar battery
(with 324 Lewis guns and 8 3" mortars)
2 brigades of artillery (36 18lb, 12 4.5")
2 trench mortar batteries (12 2")
1 machine gun battalion (64 Vickers guns)
2-3 Co. engineers, pioneer battalion, support elements.

In short, a steady increase in the number of machine guns available to
the troops.  While the amount of artillery available at division and
lower levels tended to decrease, that's because it was taken into
general reserve to be deployed en masse for specific offensives -
something that made sense given the static nature of the Western
=46ront.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 15:32:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Apr 21 14:32:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419164150.01eb9740@mail.qrc.com>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203> <5.1.0.14.2.20020419164150.01eb9740@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3cc62d61.4925172@post.demon.co.uk>

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> writes:

>In every other case that is covered by the rules, attempting to do=20
>something unusual with a jump drive causes one of three results: either=20
>nothing happens, the ship misjumps, or is catastrophically destroyed.  =
Any=20
>of these would be appropriate, and destruction sounds most likely to me =
as=20
>well.

4)  you enter jump^2 space, where you spend z weeks and re-emerge into
normal jump-space z*Jn parsecs from your starting location.
Unfortunately, the value of the constant z is unknown... (but probably
extremely high.  Unless it's the square root of minus one or some such
value).  Also, the mapping of J^2-space onto j-space is not the same
as that of j-space to n-space...

5)  You appear at the centre of the universe before the throne of
Great Azathoth himself.

Stephen
tekeli-li...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 17:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr 21 16:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
References: <20020421190105.C74D2279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c1e989$71a64d00$81b18b90@computer>

> From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
> The British stuck with their 12 battalion divisions until 1918 when
> combined attrition of four years of trench warfare finally forced them
> to adopt the triangular division as well (not to get more divisions,
> they just didn't have the manpower to keep the existing divisions at
> 12 battalions any more). I think the Australians and Canadians also
> moved to the triangular formation at around the same time.
> However the New Zealanders stuck with the older 12 battalion
> organisation right till the end of the war.

OK.  That makes sense.

In WWII, Australian divisions were originally going to be organised with
four battalion brigades, but this was changed to bring them in line with
British practice.  I'd have to check the details, but I think the first
division raised (the 6th Division) was actually formed along these lines.
The battalions left over from the reduction to three battalion brigades were
assigned to the 7th or 8th division.  Like I said, I would need to check the
details...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 17:47:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 16:47:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421234639.35407.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh
future leader of men?  :P
END QUOTE
I'm a traditionilist. It means pretty much the same as
"I'm right behind you" (twelve miles that is) ;P

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 17:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 16:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421235144.21334.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
God help them.  I'm almost of the opinion that
officers should be enlisted first.  Even academy
cadets should complete 2 years before going to the
academy.
END QUOTE

I was joking! I'm not that sort of person. I in fact
believe they should do away with the whole enlited vs
officer thing! I mean it was orignally away to make
sure the nobles (no matter how imcompetent) where
never under the command of an commoner. I think every
one should start as private and take a test to be
accepted into a command academy. 

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:00:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:00:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421235938.36529.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Nah, he's just a Butter Bar wanna be. Like Lt. Gorman
in Aliens. Hey Top, you take the men in, I'll just
watch the camera's, and make sure my boots don't get
scuffed, oh, and once your in the meat grinder I'll 
be here to lead you out. Yes Sir, were on it. Vasquez
you take point.

Turokan
END QUOTE

In Australia we have pips! Not bars. ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
Message-ID: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>

I had to go with AOL 7.0 because my copy of the last AOL software that DIDN'T 
make getting rid of HTML codes a pain vanished with the HD crash of a few 
weeks ago. Regular e-mail isn't hard, but quoting text is now a major hassle, 
and I am more than a little annoyed.

This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much extraneous 
garbage?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:12:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:12:35 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <81.1a9d8d8c.29f4af3c@aol.com>

Samuel D. Weiss Said:
>>John Snead wrote,
>>
>>I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and
>>that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually
>>fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine
>>sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas
>>all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.<
>>
>Oooohhhh ....
>Someone who thinks Rand is as worthless as I do. Cool!

Without knowing how worthless you think Rand is, I've never been especially 
fond of her writing either

This is a test to see if quoted text works without extraneous garbage.

LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <20020422001538.87316.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Never, ever sign someone up as an infantryman, and
then tell him halfway through his term that "because
you were a programmer in civilian life, we're going to
make you one here, because we're short programmers. 
We don't know who assigned you here, but we've no use
for you otherwise.".
END QUOTE

Which is why I am not going to mention my major
(software engineering to the army). "Computer sir?, I
don't recognise that command sir!". Im going to be a
programmer in civilian life the last thing I want to
do in the army is program. Now running around with a
huge pack in the mud! Sounds like fun ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
In-Reply-To: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220957010.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi LKW:

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> I had to go with AOL 7.0 because my copy of the last AOL software that DIDN'T
> make getting rid of HTML codes a pain vanished with the HD crash of a few
> weeks ago. Regular e-mail isn't hard, but quoting text is now a major hassle,
> and I am more than a little annoyed.
>
> This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much extraneous
> garbage?
>
> LKW

 Shows up in PINE 4.44 fine, no extra stuff. And yeah I <96 mega pulses
deleted for content> hate aol as well.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

"J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:

> Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
> eliminate poverty?

The government defines a poverty line.  People at and near that 
point pay no income taxes.  Anyone with an income greater than 
that pays a graduated tax, depending upon how far above it they 
are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the 
government (much like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any 
money in) to give them money equal to being at the poverty line.  

End result: no one in the nation has an income that is below the 
poverty line.  Also, the amount of taxes necessary would not be 
that high, especially since the entire welfare bureaucracy (which 
consumes a surprisingly high percentage of the money allocated to 
this sector of the government) would be instantly eliminated.

In the 1970s, this idea was either proposed or promoted by  
economist Milton Friedman and was touted as a libertarian 
proposal.  Sadly, libertarianism has changed significantly since 
them (IMHO, much for the worse).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <20413.122049.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Leonard:

 Catching up on the back log of mail.

On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
> Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system.
>
> The disk formats haven't changed (not the flopiy ones anyway) and the
> newer programs can generally read the data files from the older ones.

 You have more knowledge on the tech of the systems than I. All i am
reporting is what the average user, the "plug & pray" type, have told me
in the shop. Explaining all the problems they have with the system and
upgrades. Problems with reading disks and accessing older files. I was
told that it is possible to do the work. This by a man in his 3rd year of
computer Scicese at UofO. But he also said it took some programming and
hardware work. his explanation went above my head.

> FM (aka "single density") and MFM (aka "double density" and "high density").
>
> Most "modern" floppy controller chips can't read FM disks. But a lot of
> fairly recent ones can. For example, the Adaptec SCSI cards that
> include a floppy controller can.

 Accedentally tried to format a single density disk on my 1571 drive. In
short I have 4 of them to now to a manual head alignment job. My drives
contain the micro processor. Not certain if new cards installed would work
or be possible. Though I do remember that the first HD for the C= being
the Lt. Kernal used MFM hard drives.

> With some easily available software I can read TRS-80 floppies on my
> PC. To read Commodore or Apple GCR disks, I'd have to install the old
> CopyIIPC deluxe option board in one of my systems.

 What about emulators? i hear on some of the lists and newsgroups about
Vice 1.8 as the best out there for reading C= disk images. The .D64, .D71
and the .D81 image copy style. is this what you mean or is the above
something that I am not familiar with at this time?

> PCjr floppies used the same format as the PC.
>
> No idea what the X-box uses.

 I may be wrong, but I was told that besides the disk media. That some of
the Os is put on the disk in what I know as track and sectors. I was told
that the track and sectors for this information change with the upgrades.
Therefore this is a reason why newer systems have trouble or can't read
the older disks. This problem happened when a friend of mine tried to copy
his wifes 286 disks to the hard drive on his vin95v4 <IIRC> it wrote new
os on the original disks. how this happened or the exact things done I
don'T know. just that both of them were stock users. No programming
understanding.

> What gets fun is when you need to read things like 8" floppies or the
> whacko Amstrad 3" (*not* 3.5"!) floppies. Or cassette tapes, or stringy
> floppies or other weird media.

 <grins> Recently saw a store selling the 8" ones as part of a side walk
sale. They were surprised when I went for 50 still sealed DS/Dd 5 1/4 soft
sectored disks. FWIW Verbatium has a site up where they are selling these
disks. including the 8" and some other weird sizes I don't remember.
Speaking of cassette tapes. That is a project that I am working upon.
Converting my tape collection to disk. Not an easy one. But possible. Not
certain what you mean by stringy floppies. But I do remember in college
paper tape and those <name escapes me> punch cards.

> I once had to recover a program by reading paper tape by *hand*.

 That was a test in 74 at the class I had to take. Fun isn't it?? <BG>

> I have a DOS program called HTMSTRIP that takes HTML and produces a
> reasonably formatted plain text file. It even puts in the "boxes" in
> tables.

 My Wave prg alows me to choice between a dial up to telnet or a direct
text based web browser. I can do better with the new beta version on
working with frames if I use the straight browser. Most of the time I use
the lynx for Inet web work. Takes most frames well. But not yet will
either do the boxes. My e-mail is with Pine 4.44 though the telnet.
Eventually I will use Qwkrr for my off line reader. Still sending via
telnet the packet to videocam. Generally it makes things smooth in
reading. Removing some inconsistencies and prompts me at the start of the
msg that it has done this job and that some charcters maynot be correct.
HTML though is not always corrected. At the best everything is in
underline. At the worse all commands are enclosed in "<xx>" in the msg.
Making inding the actual content almost impossible. I have yet to try w3m.
my SysAdmin tells me this is good for frames and forms.

> There's a DOS program that'll view many image formats, including .AVI
> and MPEG files, and play a lot of sound formats.

 The free beta test of JOS will allow me to see JPEG on scren while on
line. Also and here I am out of my experience, play Wave and RAW and some
form of streamlined MP something sound files. Right now I am considering
dl ing the plans for the new ethernet board for my C=.

> Well, the idea is that there need to be publicly available standards.
> Having multiple standards is merely inconvenient as long as the info
> on the file formats is available.

 That is a problem we have today the no standards since the other systems
like mine are still in use. Impossible to set a standard then without
causing a revolt of users of the non standard platforms. A good story idea
for a lower tech level world??

 Plot ideas are running rampant in my head. Wish I could read my
penmanship for the notes I am taking on this topic. So many worlds at so
many tech levels. Creating so many different platforms. The possibilities
for computer difficulties are almost endless. However I would think that
there are Imperial standards for navigation. Set probably by the ISS. Even
if emulators and converters have to be installed in the software or
hardware on the ship. Another part of the computer skill?

> The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
> either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
> to import and export files in those formats.

 That sounds nice on paper. However I can see resentment happening. Just
based on the little that we have not using windoze systems.  We face
discrimination and that builds resentment to hostility. In Traveller, on
frontiere worlds that are doing their own thing. This could grow into a
sense of "National" pride. Or the thought of being "forced" into
something. Still I suspect that there is something going on in the
computer line. Where the files are sent say from the x-boat to panet and
revers. Where it is translated to the usable format for the receptor of
the information.

> Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
> equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
> finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice.

 Myself, I am working on converting PET to geoWrite 2.1 then converting
the final output to Ascii for upload to the places I write for through the
Inet. I can do the revese and prefere to do all my writing in GeoWrite 2.1
Takes just a few minutes to convert back and forth. Perhaps that is a
thought for the Imperial mail at least. Though expanded for images and
text for the local systems.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <20020422001538.87316.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421173609.009ec3e0@mindspring.com>

At 10:15 AM 4/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Now running around with a
>huge pack in the mud! Sounds like fun ;)

Oh it is, for the first ten miles or so!

OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at the start of the 
road march, how much will it weigh after 25 miles cross-country through 
Korea in July?


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:06:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:06:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
In-Reply-To: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174048.009fa870@mindspring.com>

At 08:07 PM 4/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
>This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much extraneous
>garbage?

Check. free and clear.

If I ever have to change systems, I'm posting the Beowulf mayday as my test 
post.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:09:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:09:13 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020421235144.21334.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174146.009fba50@mindspring.com>

At 09:51 AM 4/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
>I was joking! I'm not that sort of person. I in fact
>believe they should do away with the whole enlited vs
>officer thing! I mean it was orignally away to make
>sure the nobles (no matter how imcompetent) where
>never under the command of an commoner.

Well, that's sort of true, but there is a very real reason for the gulf 
between officers and enlisted men.

In combat, and officers has to be able to order men to take actions that 
will almost certainly get them killed, and have those orders carried out 
without question. An officer has to be a rather remote figure of power, 
hence all the saluting and calling someone with bars on his collars  "Sir" 
even though he might be younger than you.

Officers also are the responsible ones.  When things go wrong, it is the 
officer's fault. That is an awesome responsibility, and they deserve 
a  little deference from us grunts.

I served under all three flavors of officer, ROTC, trade school, and 
OCS.  They all had their differences, but I'd rather be led a member of the 
Hudson High Alumni association than a guy doing his six years to pay off 
getting his degree in Marketing at Party U.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:13:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220927280.6440-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Sam:

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Samuel D. Weiss wrote:

> Or maybe not ...
>
> *SIGH*
>
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?

 Came across to me <ascii only> quite fine. No html or things I can't
read.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204220112.ESJ04755@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry asks
>
>OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at 
>the start of the road march, how much will it weigh after 25 
>miles cross-country through Korea in July?
>

About the same as the Dragon, with spare round.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:18:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:18:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
Message-ID: <20020421.210932.-150737.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

> This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much 
> extraneous garbage?
> 
> LKW

I'm reading it fine as straight text.  Considering I use Juno (which
considers *anything* besides straight text as an evil abberation) I'd say
you're doing fine.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421173609.009ec3e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC36486.FE987F75@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 10:15 AM 4/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
> >Now running around with a
> >huge pack in the mud! Sounds like fun ;)
> 
> Oh it is, for the first ten miles or so!
> 
> OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at the start of the
> road march, how much will it weigh after 25 miles cross-country through
> Korea in July?

23 pounds, which is about half as much as that damnable M40 protective
mask that keeps banging against your left thigh with each step.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:26:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Scheets)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:26:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <008801c1e978$f0b18e40$8e83bad0@computer2>

Robot cameras 'will predict crimes before they happen'

By learning behaviour patterns, computers could soon alert police when an
unmanned camera sees 'suspicious' activity
By Andrew Johnson
21 April 2002

Computers and CCTV cameras could be used to predict and prevent crime before
it happens.

Scientists at Kingston University in London have developed software able to
anticipate if someone is about to mug an old lady or plant a bomb at an
airport.

It works by examining images coming in from close circuit television cameras
(CCTV) and comparing them to behaviour patterns that have already programmed
into its memory.

The software, called Cromatica, can then mathematically work out what is
likely to happen next. And if it is likely to be a crime it can send a
warning signal to a security guard or police officer.

Full story at:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=287307


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:34:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:34:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <20020422001538.87316.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002301c1e99e$0f4d18e0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Ramsay" <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au>
> Which is why I am not going to mention my major
> (software engineering to the army). "Computer sir?, I
> don't recognise that command sir!"

Just as long as you don't say "Computer sir? Bad Command or Filename sir!"

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <81.1a9d8d8c.29f4af3c@aol.com>
References: <81.1a9d8d8c.29f4af3c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8qq6cukej81v0jdgtshfhj82sl6acr8foc@4ax.com>

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 20:11:40 EDT, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>Samuel D. Weiss Said:
>>>John Snead wrote,
>>>
>>>I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and
>>>that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it =
actually
>>>fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine
>>>sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas
>>>all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.<
>>>
>>Oooohhhh ....
>>Someone who thinks Rand is as worthless as I do. Cool!
>
>Without knowing how worthless you think Rand is, I've never been =
especially=20
>fond of her writing either
>
>This is a test to see if quoted text works without extraneous garbage.

The quoting seems to have worked pretty well from this side of things.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 21:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 20:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020421224306.00a87f00@rollanet.org>

So this is the reason that starports are on the planet's surface and 
highports aren't as common.

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%7B1F54AEED-A34B-411B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D

--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 21:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 21 20:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 05:38:11PM -0700
References: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020421214459.A958@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 05:38:11PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the government (much
> like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any money in) to give them
> money equal to being at the poverty line.

All that'd do is devalue the dollar until the poverty line in dollars
is once again below the poverty line in fact.  It's a better scheme
than the current welfare regime, and may indeed work rather more
slowly to eviscerate the economy, but the end result'd be the same.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Security-wise, NT is a server with a 'kick me' sign taped to it.
                                                --Peter Gutmann

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 22:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 21:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <20020422041531.74282.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Robot cameras 'will predict crimes before they happen'
By learning behaviour patterns, computers could soon
alert police when an unmanned camera sees 'suspicious'
activity
END QUOTE

Until we develop AI or very very sophisticated system
this would be useless in the real world. How does a
computer now whether a person is reaching for a gun or
there wallet? Answer they can't. All it can do is
determine that an image of a person looks like its
reaching for something. If they stopped wasting money
on tech dreams such as this actual humans could be
hired. And for a very long time into the future humans
(even the ones typically hired as security guards)
will have more reasoning ability than all the
computers in the world! Robotic security guards have
been in development since the 70's and no one has yet
to make one that is accurate and/or doesn't cost more
than the police budget for a small city.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 22:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 21:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules (OT about computers)
Message-ID: <20020422041947.44658.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Just as long as you don't say "Computer sir? Bad
Command or Filename sir!"
END QUOTE

Evil thought! 

EnlistedOS. "What hard drive sir?", "Sir, the private
doesn't know where that file is", "I don't know what
happened to the RAM, sir", "Sir, it was there the last
time I checked", "But sir the registry needed cleaning
sir".

very evil indeed.

James




=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 22:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 21:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <3CC3930A.D2B8F94D@mail.cswnet.com>

Richard Wilson writes:
>So this is the reason that starports are on the planet's surface and 
>highports aren't as common.

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%7B1F54AEED-A34B-411B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D

JOY! Hydrogen wells! JOY! That will make the Downports in systems
without gas giants or other significant surface water so much easier to
deal with. I can see it now...

"168-1106 Arba/Lunion
A media advisor for Myers Mining and Manufacturing announced the
discovery of large subsurface hydrogen deposits....."

I can see the port director thinking about it now...

"No more stupid fuel blimps. No more running to the asteroid belt to
melt ice. No more begging Lanth for a refueling ship. No more...."

I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen Drilling Platform?
What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How exactly would one
extract it from the subsurface? Would there be any hazards?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 23:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 22:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20421.215401.3P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Or maybe not ...
>
> *SIGH*
>
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?

Yep. Looks good.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 23:09:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 22:09:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <F89TT0rafoBdDvwGB9g0001145a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20421.215246.9z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
> <P>
> <DIV>&lt;snip several hundred thousand exceptionally vile words&gt;</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>Leonard Erickson sent me&nbsp;a link that explained how to correct 
> things. If I did it right this should be in rtf.</DIV>
> <DIV>Sorry about the html. I didn't realize this idiotic ISP program was 
> doing that.</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></P></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Join the world&#8217;s largest 
> e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <a 
> href='http://g.msn.com/1HM205401/l'>Click Here</a><br></html>

You don't want RTF either. You want "plain text" or "ASCII". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 00:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 23:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <20020421.230604.-125605.5.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:35:22 -0500 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
>
> I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen Drilling Platform?
> What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How exactly would one
> extract it from the subsurface? Would there be any hazards?
> 

One word - Praxis!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 00:12:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 23:12:29 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421.230604.-125605.4.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:59:38 +1000 (EST) =?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=
<quakers_united@yahoo.com.au> writes:
> QUOTE
> Nah, he's just a Butter Bar wanna be. 
> 
> Turokan
> END QUOTE
> 
> In Australia we have pips! Not bars. ;)
> 
> James

That's fine James, in America it fits our Army OCS graduates fairly well.
Not the West Point grads. To me, if they can make it through West Point,
they've earned the respect of being called Sir.

Anyway Butter "pips" just don't sound good.

What do you call your OCS officers?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 00:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 23:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20421.220153.6l0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hoi Leonard:
>
>  Catching up on the back log of mail.
>
> On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
>> Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system.
>>
>> The disk formats haven't changed (not the flopiy ones anyway) and the
>> newer programs can generally read the data files from the older ones.
>
>  You have more knowledge on the tech of the systems than I. All i am
> reporting is what the average user, the "plug & pray" type, have told me
> in the shop. Explaining all the problems they have with the system and
> upgrades. Problems with reading disks and accessing older files. I was
> told that it is possible to do the work. This by a man in his 3rd year of
> computer Scicese at UofO. But he also said it took some programming and
> hardware work. his explanation went above my head.

Upgrading hardware can cause problems with almost any bit of hardware
in the system. A common problem when upgrading to the motherboards we
prefer is that the printer port won't work unless you know the right
way to force Windows to rescan for the hardware in the system. 

Most folks just give up and reinstall from scratch. 

Also, floppy drives *do* get out of alignment. 

But with windows, the first thing to suspect is that hardware manager
is loading drivers for a previous card or motherboard.

>> With some easily available software I can read TRS-80 floppies on my
>> PC. To read Commodore or Apple GCR disks, I'd have to install the old
>> CopyIIPC deluxe option board in one of my systems.
>
>  What about emulators? i hear on some of the lists and newsgroups about
> Vice 1.8 as the best out there for reading C= disk images. The .D64, .D71
> and the .D81 image copy style. is this what you mean or is the above
> something that I am not familiar with at this time?

I'm talking about reading actual floppies. The CopyIIPC board hooks
between the PC's floppy controller and the floppy drives. It lets you
read Mac & Commodore floppies.

>> PCjr floppies used the same format as the PC.
>>
>> No idea what the X-box uses.
>
>  I may be wrong, but I was told that besides the disk media. That some of
> the Os is put on the disk in what I know as track and sectors. I was told
> that the track and sectors for this information change with the upgrades.

Nope.

DOS and Windows use 512 byte sectors on floppies (and on most HDs). The
original 5.25" floppies used 40 tracks, with 8 sectors per track.
Single or double sided. (for 160k and 320k per floppy)

Later that was upped to 9 sectors per track, giving 180k and 360k per
floppy.

There were some odd formats used on a few proprietary versions of DOS,
especially on 3.5" disks before IBM introduced their version. 

Standard 3.5" DD disks are 720k. 80 track, 40 sectors per track.

The HD floppies were 80 track on both sizes of floppy. Which, btw,
caused mah\jor problems with writing to 5.25" DD floppies on HD drives...

1.2M 5.25" floppies were 16 sectors per track, 80 track.
1.4 meg 3.5" floppies were 18 sectors per track, 80 track.

But with the right commands you can read/write any MFM format that the
drive will support. 

It's the weird sector sizes, FM and GCR formats that you need to have
the right hardware for.

> Therefore this is a reason why newer systems have trouble or can't read
> the older disks.

Ok, Windows will clobber *non*-DOS disks, and some "special" dos disks
because it checks to see if disks have been changed by writing a made
up string to a location on the floppie normal used for an ID string
used to identify various OEM versions of DOS. This makes the disks
unreadable on the original system.

Never stick install disks from older software, or things like BIOS
upgrade disks into a box running windows without write protecting the floppy.

> This problem happened when a friend of mine tried to copy
> his wifes 286 disks to the hard drive on his vin95v4 <IIRC> it wrote new
> os on the original disks. how this happened or the exact things done I
> don'T know. just that both of them were stock users. No programming
> understanding.

Trust me, *they* did it. Not the OS.

Either the alignment on the drives doiffered and it asked if he wanted
to format the disks, and he said yes, or he did something else stupid. 

You see, without any special commands at all, I copied 100 floppies from
an XT system to directories on my HD and then burned a CD for him. 

I had a bit more trouble with the HD...

>> What gets fun is when you need to read things like 8" floppies or the
>> whacko Amstrad 3" (*not* 3.5"!) floppies. Or cassette tapes, or stringy
>> floppies or other weird media.
>
>  <grins> Recently saw a store selling the 8" ones as part of a side walk
> sale. They were surprised when I went for 50 still sealed DS/Dd 5 1/4 soft
> sectored disks. FWIW Verbatium has a site up where they are selling these
> disks. including the 8" and some other weird sizes I don't remember.

8" floppies are *expensive* now, because so few folks use them anymore.

> Speaking of cassette tapes. That is a project that I am working upon.
> Converting my tape collection to disk. Not an easy one. But possible. Not
> certain what you mean by stringy floppies. But I do remember in college
> paper tape and those <name escapes me> punch cards.

Stringy flopies were a sort of high speed cassette. They used a credit
card sized endless loop tape (rather like an 8-track, but smaller). The
drives were available for several systems, Apple, TRS-80, etc.

>> Well, the idea is that there need to be publicly available standards.
>> Having multiple standards is merely inconvenient as long as the info
>> on the file formats is available.
>
>  That is a problem we have today the no standards since the other systems
> like mine are still in use. Impossible to set a standard then without
> causing a revolt of users of the non standard platforms. A good story idea
> for a lower tech level world??

You are suffering from the delusion that new standards are required to
be usable on "obsolete" equipment. Or even on brands of equipment other
than those of the outfit setting the standard.

>  Plot ideas are running rampant in my head. Wish I could read my
> penmanship for the notes I am taking on this topic. So many worlds at so
> many tech levels. Creating so many different platforms. The possibilities
> for computer difficulties are almost endless. However I would think that
> there are Imperial standards for navigation. Set probably by the ISS. Even
> if emulators and converters have to be installed in the software or
> hardware on the ship. Another part of the computer skill?

You have to remember that most lower tech worlds aren't inventing their
tech. They are upgrading to *existing* tech used on other worlds. Or
they have chosen a locally sustainable tech level lower than that of
the world they were settled from.

After the Long night, you'd get a lot of independent stuff. But it'd be
unlikely to last more than a century or so. Uniform standards are just
too useful. And unless you are the highest tech world in the area,
you'll be replacing or upgrading your stuff in less than a century
anyway. 

>> The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
>> either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
>> to import and export files in those formats.
>
>  That sounds nice on paper. However I can see resentment happening. Just
> based on the little that we have not using windoze systems.  We face
> discrimination and that builds resentment to hostility. In Traveller, on
> frontiere worlds that are doing their own thing. This could grow into a
> sense of "National" pride. Or the thought of being "forced" into
> something.

I think you are confused here. I'm talking about data formats. That's
not the same as stuff like spreadsheets and other "software specific"
formats. 

The only reason you wouldn't be able to import/export stuff in a
"universal" data format would be if your equipment just plain wasn't up
to handling the *data*. For example, it gets *really* hard to handle
multi-gigabyte files on an 8-bit system<g>

The one exception would be compression methods, where the "horsepower"
of the system can make it impossible to handle it on lower powered
systems.

Windows dominance and "universal" data exchange formats are only
loosely related. MS *wants* their stuff to be all that's used and tries
to make it hard to use "foreign" formats (or makes changes to break
formats so the MS version can read files from other software but can't
be read on the other platforms).

> Still I suspect that there is something going on in the
> computer line. Where the files are sent say from the x-boat to panet and
> revers. Where it is translated to the usable format for the receptor of
> the information.

It shouldn't require translation *at all* is my point. GIFs don't need
to be translated. ASCII text only needs translation on systems that
don't support it (and BTW, Commodore was incredibly *stupid* in not
supporting ASCII when they designed the PET the standard had been
around since 1968!!)

>> Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
>> equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
>> finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice.
>
>  Myself, I am working on converting PET to geoWrite 2.1 then converting
> the final output to Ascii for upload to the places I write for through the
> Inet. I can do the revese and prefere to do all my writing in GeoWrite 2.1
> Takes just a few minutes to convert back and forth. Perhaps that is a
> thought for the Imperial mail at least. Though expanded for images and
> text for the local systems.

Again, most tech will *not* be native except in small areas or certain
time periods.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <010401c1e94c$9dd5b7e0$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic

Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.

Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
<grin>

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:26:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:26:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
In-Reply-To: <20020421.230604.-125605.5.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
> >
> > I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen 
> > ? Drilling Platform?
> > What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How 
> > exactly would one> extract it from the subsurface? 
> > Would there be any hazards?
> 
> One word - Praxis!

Um, sorry ?

What does Piaget's term for a child's system of coordinated 
and deliberate movements acquired during the sensory- motor 
stage of development have to do with hydrogen drillling ? 

Or, for that matter, what does the term for the right of 
a Camarilla Prince to rule his city have to do with hydrogen 
drilling ?

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:28:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:28:47 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote :
> The government defines a poverty line.
> People at and near that  point pay no income taxes.
> Anyone with an income greater than that pays a
> graduated tax, depending upon how far above it
> they are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets
> money from the government (much like a tax refund
> but w/o having to pay any money in) to give them
> money equal to being at the poverty line.
>
> End result: no one in the nation has an income that is
> below the poverty line.

And almost no one in the counry has an after tax income that is
much above the poverty line either.

> Also, the amount of taxes necessary
> would not be  that high,

Oh yes it is. You should try living in New Zealand.
20% of the country pay for 80% of it.
The remaining 20% pay their own way.

I'm paying about 40% of my income in income tax alone.
Add onto that sales tax, local government taxes, etc, etc.
and its approaching 60% of my income in tax.

And I still have to pay health insurance and tuition fees on
top of that because the state systems suck for everything
except emergency surgery.

> especially since the entire welfare
> bureaucracy (which consumes a surprisingly high
> percentage of the money allocated to this sector
> of the government) would be instantly eliminated.

And instead that bureaucracy would be duplicated
in the IRS. The bureaucracy for distributing the
money will be the same no matter who controls it.

They had the same idea over here, it increased the
bureaucracy, because although they had the IRD
refunding money to people, they _still_ had to have
the rest of the social welfare system to handle all
the other allowances, like the solo parent's benefit,
the "being Maori" benefit, the "being lesbian"
benefit, and the "being a Maori lesbian solo parent"
benefit, and the...

Sorry, it gets a bit much sometimes, especially when
they teach young girls that a "valid career choice" is
"solo parent".

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002, at 20:35, Frank Pitt wrote:

> They had the same idea over here, it increased the
> bureaucracy, because although they had the IRD
> refunding money to people, they _still_ had to have
> the rest of the social welfare system to handle all
> the other allowances, like the solo parent's benefit,
> the "being Maori" benefit, the "being lesbian"
> benefit, and the "being a Maori lesbian solo parent"
> benefit, and the...
> 

Frank, please be careful here.  I'd like not to be too inflammatory, 
but that statement came close to being racist and homophobic, 
two adjectives I really don't like.  If you need to say stuff like that, 
please keep it out of my mailbox.

Sincerely,
-- Rachel Kronick


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 03:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon Apr 22 02:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <200204220112.ESJ04755@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPEENFEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Douglas Berry asks
>
>OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at
>the start of the road march, how much will it weigh after 25
>miles cross-country through Korea in July?
>

It is a well know fact that as one gets more tired gravity increases where
ever you happen to be. Thus equations for acceleration due to gravity need
to incorporate a fatigue factor.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 03:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 02:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020421214459.A958@4dv.net>
References: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020421214459.A958@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020422193023.A3521@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> All that'd do is devalue the dollar until the poverty line in
> dollars is once again below the poverty line in fact.

Not at all.  That would only be true if the society is very close to
being unable to support its population at poverty line levels -- which
doesn't hold true for any modern industrialised nation.  It is already
demonstrated that rich countries *can* support large government
payments to a large proportion of their population -- all that would
change is who gets what.

Compared with Australia's current welfare system, for example, it
would greatly *encourage* employment and hence productivity of society
as a whole.  As it stands, anyone in Australia who gets even a
part-time job loses their unemployment payments, health care
concessions, rent assistance, eligibility for taxation breaks, and
other benefits -- and usually so do their spouses.  It's a great
disincentive -- in most cases, working 20 hours a week is a net *loss*
over not working at all.

I realise this anecdotal report doesn't refute your point, but it does
show that a much worse system than the one proposed can remain stable
for quite a while.  I don't think it will actually remain so for
political reasons, but economically it could certainly be sustained
indefinitely.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 03:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Apr 22 02:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <20020422093745.58225.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to
> Comics.
Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember
what he did.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 04:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 03:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz> <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020422202058.B3521@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rachel Kronick wrote:
> Frank, please be careful here.  I'd like not to be too inflammatory, 
> but that statement came close to being racist and homophobic, 

Blame it on the government, not Frank.  They're the ones making
decisions whether to hand out money based on the origin of your
ancestors.  I'm not sure whether he was being serious about the
"lesbian" benefit or not.  The solo parent benefit certainly is fact.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 06:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon Apr 22 05:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422202058.B3521@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002, at 20:20, Timothy Little wrote:

> Blame it on the government, not Frank.  They're the ones making
> decisions whether to hand out money based on the origin of your
> ancestors.  I'm not sure whether he was being serious about the
> "lesbian" benefit or not.  The solo parent benefit certainly is fact.
> 

I have little or no problem with the government's decisions regarding 
benefits; the problem was that Frank came very close to implicitly 
saying that being Maori or being lesbian was a bad thing.  His 
derisive tone, not the government's decision, was what irked me.

Okay, nothing further on this subject, at least from me.  

-- Rachel 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 06:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon Apr 22 05:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <E16zdOy-0005P5-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

Eventhough the people maintaining the airplane are all enlisted, some with =
only 6-8 weeks of training.

Beth (retired aircraft maintainer)


>   Pilots are officers because the military does not
> want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
> though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
> the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
> arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
> that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
> wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
> why........
>=20
>      MACessna


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon Apr 22 06:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <E16zdga-0005cC-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

It's OK, nothing to worry about.  Everything will be alright.  Why don't yo=
u follow these two gentlemen to a nice comfy room we have for you.  All pad=
ded and quiet.  Latter we will feed you.  We hope that you like pudding.  W=
e will even fit you with a new jacket as well.  <g,d,r>

Beth :)  (who also had had the same types of brain lock-downs)


>=20
> Mr. McKnight,
>=20
>      Thanks for the tip.  As way of illustrating my dearth of research=20
> skills, I've been mindlessly typing "TO&E" into various search engines.  =
I=20
> never thought to actually SPELL the acronym out!  Did I mention that my h=
ead=20
> comes to a point?
>=20
>      "Sorry for putting this on the web, but I can't contact you offlist=
=20
> without an email address.  :-)"
>=20
>      Yet another example of typical Whipsnadian brain flatulence.  I ask =
the=20
> kind folk of the TML to contact me off-List and then neglect to provide t=
he=20
> address.  Did I mention that my head comes to a point?
>      Thanks again for your help.
>=20
>=20
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 08:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Mon Apr 22 07:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
Message-ID: <F34UkSQDq1gFSlgOLN300005c8f@hotmail.com>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
> >
> >I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me
> >with a special insight when I had my own platoon.
> >
>
>I think it's better to find out that someone can't delegate
>when they're an NCO (or even a corporal) rather then after we
>waste the money to make them an officer.
>
>Of course, I don't believe that leadership can be "taught".
>Talent in this area can be nurtured, grown, and refined, but
>never "taught".  If you can't lead or delegate to begin with,
>no amount of training is going to make a difference.
>
>One other area of "talent" that isn't easily remedied by
>training - tactical ability, and an ability to implement that
>tactical brilliance in your platoon. All platoon drills
>aside -- can you and your men really fight?  I remember
>watching platoons turning into indecisive, sleep-deprived
>zombies because no one in the chain of command, officer or
>nco, could get it all together.  There's nothing more
>unnerving to me than watching a platoon in training mill
>around in my scope when a few of them are hit with MILES
>gear.  Watching the men peep their heads in and out of the
>woodline like idiots.  Officers and NCOs scratching their
>heads and having a committee meeting to decide what to do.  I
>even remember a fat platoon sergeant ambling out into the
>open, looking up and down the danger space, trying to figure
>out where I was.
>
>Not all platoons were this bad, thank God.  But there were
>some like that.  And I put the blame not only on the LT, but
>on the NCOs in the platoon.

I want to give the list a URL...  
http://www2.inc.com/incmagazine/archives/04980541.html

This is an article titled "Corps Values" and it is about the USMC method of 
developing leaders at TBS, The Basic School.  It is an excellent read, and 
gives good insight to the qualities looked for in the screening and 
evaluating process that the US Marine Corps uses in developing leaders.

Obtrav:  All Marine Officers, in the entire force, attend one of the two or 
three basic schools in the Imperium....

Greg Smith
Capt  USMC (former)




Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 08:31:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 07:31:08 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <20020422093745.58225.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422092623.045e5950@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_476139==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Co-author of Dungeons and Dragons.  TSR did their level best to erase his 
name from D&D; Arneson had to sue for royalties; they settled out of court 
back in 1979.

Victor Raymond

At 02:37 AM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to
> > Comics.
>Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember
>what he did.
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
>http://games.yahoo.com/
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor J. Raymond
Department of Sociology, ISU
vraymond@iastate.edu
--=====================_476139==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
Co-author of Dungeons and Dragons.&nbsp; TSR did their level best to
erase his name from D&amp;D; Arneson had to sue for royalties; they
settled out of court back in 1979.<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
At 02:37 AM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what
Kirby was to<br>
&gt; Comics.<br>
Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember<br>
what he did.<br><br>
__________________________________________________<br>
Do You Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more<br>
<a href="http://games.yahoo.com/" eudora="autourl">http://games.yahoo.com/</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
TML mailing list<br>
TML@travellercentral.com<br>
<a href="http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml" eudora="autourl">http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml</a></blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times">Victor J. Raymond<br>
Department of Sociology, ISU<br>
vraymond@iastate.edu</font></html>

--=====================_476139==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 08:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Apr 22 07:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> End result: no one in the nation has an income that
> is below the 
> poverty line.  Also, the amount of taxes necessary
> would not be 
> that high, especially since the entire welfare
> bureaucracy (which 
> consumes a surprisingly high percentage of the money
> allocated to 
> this sector of the government) would be instantly
> eliminated.

The only way I can see such a system working is if you
ensure that those in the system are at least
attempting to be employed.  That, then, requires that
at least some of your welfare bureaucracy remain.  I'm
not suggesting that our current system is better, just
pointing out a possible problem.

Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is 10,000Cr. 
If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away 10,000
of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick.  In
my mind, this situation would produce three types of
people:

1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
     These people continue to earn as much as they
can, either (a) hoping that maybe the government will
not need all of it to pay for those not at poverty
level and that they will get to keep the extra
(doubtful) or (b) working because they are not
concerned with the money aspect of the work, but are
motivated by something else entirely.

2.  Workers (Small Minority)
     These people work to earn poverty level, and take
the rest of the time off.  They are of the type who
believe that labor is good and want to earn for their
family.

3.  Loafers (Very Large Majority)
     These people realize that no matter how much (or
how little) they work, they will get at least enough
money to subsist and if they earn more, the government
is likely to take it all from them.  They reason that
there is no reason to work.

Although I (and probably many others) may want to
think and believe we would be in categories 1 or 2,
how many of us love our work, or feel compelled to
work enough that we could withstand the temptation to
be in category 3?  Not many, I would guess.

Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were
making an attempt at earning a living, and there is
your welfare bureaucracy.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>; from rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net on Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 09:01:26PM +0800
References: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost> <20020422202058.B3521@freeman.little-possums.net> <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020422085927.A5010@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 09:01:26PM +0800, Rachel Kronick wrote:
> 
> I have little or no problem with the government's decisions regarding 
> benefits; the problem was that Frank came very close to implicitly 
> saying that being Maori or being lesbian was a bad thing.

No--he implied that benefits solely because one is Maori or lesbian
are a bad thing.

> His derisive tone, not the government's decision, was what irked me.

The derision was for the government's decision.

Sheesh, I cannot believe I'm defending someone I've killfiled.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Exodus will never disconnect a spammer.  By the time the complaints
reach a level adequate to persuade them, the small-arms fire will
prevent their admins from reaching the servers --clifto, in nanae

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:02:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:02:21 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204221459.g3MExjP00155@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Rupert 
...
>>   Arguably this applied in certain periods of 
>> Roman history, and perhaps in some other classical
>> armies (where maybe only members of the right
>> classes might act as commanders, but far from all
>> of those eligible would fight except as ordinary
>> soldiers).
>
>True. And in theory the Athens so famour for its democracy didn't have 
>an officer class/caste, etc. However in practice only those born of 
>wealthy and influential families would be appointed, as with Rome 
>(which is why I said there weren't any I knew of).
>
>However it's probably worth noting that in these armies (especially the 
>Roman one of the late Republic and early Empire) most of the positions 
>we'd consider appropriate for officers were filled by Centurions and 
>their superiors, all of whom were 'from the ranks'. There were officers 
>above them who weren't from the ranks, but they were few and far 
>between (I seem to recall there being none until Legion level, at which 
>point there was the CO and several 'staff officers', etc.). Of course 
>the rank structure was quite flat by modern western standards, too.

  That's why I went with "arguably" - it can be presented either way,
with the big issue being whether some of those positions (eg, a Roman
centurion) were officers or NCO's. By the social standards of the
non-professionals in command (& staff) at Legion level they were only
commoners for almost all purposes, but the Legion could sooner function
without any of those patricians or equites than it could with even half
of the centurionate absent.

  Given the role of the army in political strife in the later Empire,
maybe the empire would have functioned better without any of those
classes in the legions :|

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174048.009fa870@mindspring.com>
References: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174048.009fa870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020422170728.7ba62ef6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Check. free and clear.
> 
> If I ever have to change systems, I'm posting the Beowulf mayday as my
test 
> post.

This is Free PC Beowulf
pinging anyone...
Mayday, Mayday... we are under attack...
hard drive is gone...
serial port number one not responding...
Mayday... losing system stability fast...
calling anyone... please help...
This is Free PC Beowulf

<message repeats>

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changes to First In rules
In-Reply-To: <000d01c1e7bb$b9afeea0$0f01a8c0@terry>
References: <20020316213935.3edca0b2.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <000d01c1e7bb$b9afeea0$0f01a8c0@terry>
Message-ID: <20020422171232.3a3ba7ef.jenry023@student.liu.se>

tmixon wrote:
> The ratio is wrong. The standard star distribution is 4+ on 1d6. That
> means an average of 640 systems per sector. So this one is actually 1.28
> per sector.

Oops, my mistake.

<snip>
> If you want the ratios on one per sector or one every 7.5 sectors, the
> ratios will need to change.

Right, thanks.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <F34UkSQDq1gFSlgOLN300005c8f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204221040090.12612-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Andrew MacLintock wrote:
> Obtrav:  All Marine Officers, in the entire force, attend one of the two or 
> three basic schools in the Imperium....

Is that realistic?  Given the cost of shipping a candidate across a
sector or two, I'd think the Imperium would prefer the expense of running
more schools so that one would be closer to home.
Great link, btw, though that's coming from someone who doesn't quite see
military service in his future.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420121558.A5360@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019491952.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Aha, so we have magically targeted changes in the rules of quantum
> > mechanics.
> 
> Yes, that's the one :)

Ok, just checking.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <20020422.091436.-170613.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:35:16 +1200 "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> > <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
> > >
> > > I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen 
> > > ? Drilling Platform?
> > > What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How 
> > > exactly would one> extract it from the subsurface? 
> > > Would there be any hazards?
> > 
> > One word - Praxis!
> 
> Um, sorry ?

Praxis - Klingon moon which blew up in ST-VI The Undiscovered Country.

Due to over mining, and poor safety prtocols.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019492558.5758.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
> "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:
> 
> > Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
> > eliminate poverty?
> 
> The government defines a poverty line.  People at and near that 
> point pay no income taxes.  Anyone with an income greater than 
> that pays a graduated tax, depending upon how far above it they 
> are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the 
> government (much like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any 
> money in) to give them money equal to being at the poverty line.  

Not quite; one idea behind negative income tax as I'm aware of it is that it's
supposed to eliminate the welfare effect where by getting a job, your income
doesn't improve.  Thus, if the poverty line is $10,000/year and you made less
than that, tax would be something like 50% of income - $5,000, so if you made
$2,000/year, your taxes would be -$4,000/year.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204221040090.12612-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019492780.113.ajackson@ping>

Gregory Carl Kettler writes:
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Andrew MacLintock wrote:
> > Obtrav:  All Marine Officers, in the entire force, attend one of the two
> > or  three basic schools in the Imperium....
> 
> Is that realistic? 

Sure.  It's a distributed school; you just have to realize that academy at
Regina and the academy at Dingir are the same school ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Frank Pitt wrote:

> Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> 
> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
> 
> Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
> <grin>
> 
I'd have to agree.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422085927.A5010@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220948240.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Rachel wrote:
>
> > His derisive tone, not the government's decision, was what irked me.
> 
> The derision was for the government's decision.

I thought so, too.  You don't get much more anti-homophobic than I am, but
I don't think being gay should get you money from the government.  
 
> Sheesh, I cannot believe I'm defending someone I've killfiled.

I hate it when that happens too, Robert.

Kiri :) 

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <OF5BF2A073.349D1856-ON85256BA3.005C2CDE@pheaa.org>





>> Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
>> > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
>>
>> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
>>
>> Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
>> <grin>
>>
>I'd have to agree.

Please forgive my stupidity but who or what is Shooter?







From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 11:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Mon Apr 22 10:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1ea22$d25c5a60$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Paul Walker
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 07:41
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] RAH and libertarianism

Although I (and probably many others) may want to
think and believe we would be in categories 1 or 2,
how many of us love our work, or feel compelled to
work enough that we could withstand the temptation to
be in category 3?  Not many, I would guess.

Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were
making an attempt at earning a living, and there is
your welfare bureaucracy.

Paul
------------------------------------------------------------

Put me in group 3.  Its not so much I hate working, its that nothing you
do nowadays makes any difference in your employment.  I've worked for
Kyocera, SHE, Hewlett-Packard, Agilent and AT&T and they are all the
same - use you until they no longer feel they need you, then dump you.

Yes, I am currently unemployed again.  AT&T a couple of years back was
worried that a rival ISP was coming in and they knew their customer
service sucked.  So they started hiring in-house technicians and toned
down their contractors.  Well Comcast basically merged with AT&T and
Time/Warner has no plans to compete here.

AT&T found itself sitting on a de facto monopoly, at least in the
Vancouver/Portland area, so they took it upon themselves to be rid of
their in-house employees and went back to the lack-luster contractors.
I and 15 of my co-workers found themselves not laid off but outright
fired for all sorts of stupid reasons.

I gave this company 110% like I always do as an employee, but here I am
again, unemployed.  There were days I started at 7am and got home after
midnight because I put the customers first and myself last.  Now I have
nothing to show for it.  HP and Agilent did similar things but at least
had the decency to lay us off.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do now with the job market so already
over-bloated with laid off workers.  I'm just tired of working for
companies that have absolutely no loyalty to their employees.

If anyone in the Portland/Vancouver area that is on this list hears
about any job that could use someone good with computers or telecom,
please email me off-list.

Thanks!

( j-man@attbi.com )






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 11:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr 22 10:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220948240.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <20020422085927.A5010@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422104155.009f3ec0@mindspring.com>

At 09:49 AM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:

>I thought so, too.  You don't get much more anti-homophobic than I am, but
>I don't think being gay should get you money from the government.

I don't know, the way some of the RR talks, we might be able to file for 
disability!

ObTrav: A world sees some common trait as being a horrible disadvantage 
(being left-handed, for ex) left handers are offered all sorts of 
government assistance, programs.. the good times end when the ship tries to 
leave.. the pilot is left-handed, and under law cannot operate the ship in 
the planet's airspace...

-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 12:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 22 11:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422104155.009f3ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDBDMAA.tml@downport.com>

You have that exactly backwards. The LL say it's physical, which might fall
under the ADA if you thinks it is handicapping you in some way. The RR (and
the Pope) say it is an act of the will, meaning sin.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
>
> I don't know, the way some of the RR talks, we might be able to file for
> disability!
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 13:42:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 12:42:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
References: <F262jQlc7vtdFq7ImxU00001228@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC46749.40007@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     Yet another example of typical Whipsnadian brain flatulence.  I ask 
> the kind folk of the TML to contact me off-List and then neglect to 
> provide the address.  Did I mention that my head comes to a point?
>     Thanks again for your help.

Uhhh...at least in _my_ mail client, Larsen's e-mail address

grote1731@hotmail.com

Is shown on each of his posts to the list...


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 13:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421173609.009ec3e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC468A1.8050409@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at the start of 
> the road march, how much will it weigh after 25 miles cross-country 
> through Korea in July?

Why the same as an unladen kitten perched on your chest, asleep.

5.67 tons. ;-)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
Message-ID: <200204222013.g3MKDLi02407@mailbag.com>

Hello all,

My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete the 
process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be spending the evening 
of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San Francisco. If there are any 
fellow Travellers who would care to get to gether with me that evening for beer 
and/or conversation, please let me know. 

Thanks!

William




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <DAV57DRtBBnmIahhPyO0001abc4@hotmail.com>

I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
before.

Gygax is very much to gaming as Kirby was to comics.


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV57DRtBBnmIahhPyO0001abc4@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

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At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
>growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
>before.

Mr. Weiss,

Without putting too fine a point on it, Mr. Gygax and TSR also ended up in 
litigation with Mr. Arneson about authorship and royalties about D&D - 
despite the fact that Arneson originated the concept and was listed as a 
co-author on the cover of the original game.  If that is "improving on what 
had come before" forgive me if I want to check to see if I have all my 
fingers when we're done shaking hands.

Even if you buy the argument that Gygax was somehow responsible for the 
"success" of D&D, you could build a case that TSR missed opportunity after 
opportunity to make it even bigger.  Or merely note the fact that the 
company was run into the ground, not once, but TWICE, despite their 
"success."  Add to that the antagonistic relationship that Gygax had with a 
great number of fans - many of whom are now successful game designers in 
their own right - and these conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)

To each their own, Mr. Weiss.

Victor Raymond


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

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<html>
At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I wasn't aware that Arneson made
D&amp;D a million dollar industry with still<br>
growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had
come<br>
before.</blockquote><br>
Mr. Weiss,<br><br>
Without putting too fine a point on it, Mr. Gygax and TSR also ended up
in litigation with Mr. Arneson about authorship and royalties about
D&amp;D - despite the fact that Arneson originated the concept and was
listed as a co-author on the cover of the original game.&nbsp; If that is
&quot;improving on what had come before&quot; forgive me if I want to
check to see if I have all my fingers when we're done shaking
hands.<br><br>
Even if you buy the argument that Gygax was somehow responsible for the
&quot;success&quot; of D&amp;D, you could build a case that TSR missed
opportunity after opportunity to make it even bigger.&nbsp; Or merely
note the fact that the company was run into the ground, not once, but
TWICE, despite their &quot;success.&quot;&nbsp; Add to that the
antagonistic relationship that Gygax had with a great number of fans -
many of whom are now successful game designers in their own right - and
these conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)<br><br>
To each their own, Mr. Weiss.<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_91614101==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422190106.A61D4279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote:

> --- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > End result: no one in the nation has an income that
> > is below the 
> > poverty line.  Also, the amount of taxes necessary
> > would not be 
> > that high, especially since the entire welfare
> > bureaucracy (which 
> > consumes a surprisingly high percentage of the money
> > allocated to 
> > this sector of the government) would be instantly
> > eliminated.
> 
> The only way I can see such a system working is if you
> ensure that those in the system are at least
> attempting to be employed.  That, then, requires that
> at least some of your welfare bureaucracy remain.  I'm
> not suggesting that our current system is better, just
> pointing out a possible problem.
> 
> Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is 10,000Cr. 
> If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away 10,000
> of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick.  In
> my mind, this situation would produce three types of
> people:

<snip> 

That would *only* be true if the median income was at the poverty 
line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.  The incentive to 
work would be have an income greater than the poverty line.  Most 
people want this and the percentage of people below the poverty 
line honestly isn't that high.  If the poverty live was 10,000 Cr, then 
someone earning 20,000 Cr would be far more likely to pay no 
more than 20% of their income in taxes, resulting in a net income 
of 16,000 Cr.  Assuming a wealth structure like that in the US, then 
if there was a reasonable tex system (ie one where the ultra-
wealthy could not use numerous loop holes to avoid paying any 
taxes) then that 20% could likely be reduced to 15% (for 20,000 
Cr), resulting in a net income of 17,000 Cr.  Those extra 6,000 or 
7,000 Cr can buy lots of nice things and many people will think 
them worth the effort.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019508300.7419.ajackson@ping>

For reference on negative income tax:

http://www.indiapolicy.org/lists/india_policy/2000/Jun/msg00007.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:48:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:48:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
Message-ID: <20020422.134355.-170613.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

William

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:13:20 GMT wlewis@mailbag.com writes:
> Hello all,
> 
> My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to
complete the process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be
spending the evening of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San
Francisco. If there are any  fellow Travellers who would care to get to
gether with me that evening for beer and/or conversation, please let me
know. 
> 
> Thanks!

Congrats!!!

I pray your journey be safe, productive, and fulfilling to you, your
wife, and especially your new baby boy.

My best to you all. The world would improve greatly if it followed your
example.

Chaplain Bari

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV84RtKdLWPo08EOTq0001acff@hotmail.com>

Mr. Raymond,

Without putting too fine a point on it either, you seem to be confusing a
number of business policies more properly attributed to other people at TSR,
who among other things wound up unsucessfully suing Mr. Gygax over the game
he created upon being forced out of TSR, with the actions of Mr. Gygax
himself.
You seem to wish to ignore that Mr. Arneson had nothing to do with
expansions of the game following the initial publication.
As for the running of the company into the ground, this very specifically
happened when people other than Mr. Gygax were running the company.
Concerning his antagonistic relationship with fans as well as game
designers, from what I've witnessed this is a combination of Mr. Gygax being
right about a number of things he said, and some rather intense jealously.
More than one would be fanboy or sycophant has tried sucking up and been
rebuffed for getting something wrong and subsequently become an ardent
internet defamer of Mr. Gygax and his works. As well, the professional
jealousy of game designers whose command of the English language resembles
that of a 3 year old when compared to Mr. Gygax, not to mention the truly
questionable quality of some of their designs, should be highly suspect to
anyone with a discerning eye.

Is Gary a perfect person, always polite, and always humble about his
accomplishments?
No.
Do I agree with everything he has ever said?
No.
Did he define multiple aspects of a hobby genre like Jack Kirby defined
comics?
Definitely.

To each their own indeed. And for me, that is the most definitely Gary
Gygax, whether he is sending me blistering flames or fullsome praises.


Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 01:32:49PM -0700
References: <20020422190106.A61D4279B9@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020422145517.A5794@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 01:32:49PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> That would *only* be true if the median income was at the poverty
> line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.  The incentive
> to work would be have an income greater than the poverty line.

I believe it was meant as a reductio ad absurdem.  That is, by making
x=100, it demonstrated the worst possible case.  Even if the tax rate
on earnings over the poverty line is only 1%, then for every $100 more
of work I put in I only get $99.  As the rate goes up, so does the
disincentive.  The practical effect is that less work gets done than
ideally should.

This is a problem with any tax, and is insurmountable.  There are
other, worse problems with no taxes.

> If the poverty live was 10,000 Cr, then someone earning 20,000 Cr
> would be far more likely to pay no more than 20% of their income in
> taxes, resulting in a net income of 16,000 Cr.

A net income of 16,000 Cr for 20,000 Cr worth of work.

> Those extra 6,000 or 7,000 Cr can buy lots of nice things and many
> people will think them worth the effort.

But is it worth 10,000 Cr worth of work for 6,000 Cr worth of credits?

I'm not anti-taxes; they're a necessary evil.  But it's important to
realise the very bad efects taxation has on an economy.  Ideally
taxation (and therefore, the public sector) would be limited to a few
percent of GDP, so as to minimise the deleterious economic effects
thereof.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A person who's interested only in books doesn't need other people...
                           --Arturo Perez-Reverte, The Club Dumas

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:00:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:00:24 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <3CC478B9.9010306@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Victor Jason Raymond wrote:
> At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
> 
>> I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
>> growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
>> before.

snip


> Add to that the antagonistic relationship that Gygax had 
> with a great number of fans - many of whom are now successful game 
> designers in their own right - and these conclusions look pretty dice-y. 
> (so to speak)

Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on this) 
  had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
role-playing industry.

Very likely there would have been no card came industry ("Magic-the 
gathering of spare cash", etc)

It was a runaway success that paved the way for everything else since, 
TSR mis-steps or not.

(Yes, I know it's runaway success was proof there was a huge untapped 
market for it out there, but that is the nature of runaway 
successes....'Trivial Pursuit' was also a runaway success, despite a 
host of similar games like it on the market in the past that didn't take 
off.)

I myself was introduced to Traveller as '...like D&D, only SF, with 
starships and fusion guns...'

Like it or not, the *one* thing that springs to the average person's 
mind when they heard the term 'role playing game' is D&D.

Well, that and '..sallow, spindly geek with no life..', but I digress...

(and I'm not sallow, and (alas) long passed the 'spindly' stage...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
References: <200204222013.g3MKDLi02407@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <3CC479F7.6090906@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

wlewis@mailbag.com wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete the 
> process to adopt a baby boy. 

Congratulations!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <3CC478B9.9010306@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_94568000==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 01:55 PM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Victor Jason Raymond wrote:
>>At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>>I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
>>>growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
>>>before.
>
>snip
>
>
>>Add to that the antagonistic relationship that Gygax had with a great 
>>number of fans - many of whom are now successful game designers in their 
>>own right - and these conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)
>
>Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on 
>this)  had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
>role-playing industry.

<nods>

Dear Bruce (and an aside to Mr. Weiss),

I would definitely agree with you about this.  My point is that if you 
should praise Gygax, you ought to also praise David L. Arneson, as well - 
it's only fair.  Gygax wouldn't have had D&D if Arneson had not started 
doing Blackmoor.  And there is a fair bit to point out that isn't so 
praiseworthy.

Victor


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_94568000==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 01:55 PM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Victor Jason Raymond wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you
wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I wasn't aware that Arneson made
D&amp;D a million dollar industry with still<br>
growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had
come<br>
before.</blockquote></blockquote><br>
snip<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Add to that the antagonistic
relationship that Gygax had with a great number of fans - many of whom
are now successful game designers in their own right - and these
conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)</blockquote><br>
Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on
this)&nbsp; had there been no D&amp;D, there very likely would have been
*no* role-playing industry.</blockquote><br>
&lt;nods&gt;<br><br>
Dear Bruce (and an aside to Mr. Weiss),<br><br>
I would definitely agree with you about this.&nbsp; My point is that if
you should praise Gygax, you ought to also praise David L. Arneson, as
well - it's only fair.&nbsp; Gygax wouldn't have had D&amp;D if Arneson
had not started doing Blackmoor.&nbsp; And there is a fair bit to point
out that isn't so praiseworthy.<br><br>
Victor<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_94568000==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:20:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:20:29 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <200204222116.ETY00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip Gygax stuff>

Well, the basic lesson that I see in the whole Gygax thing
is never, ever run a company and staff it with your friends.  
I did that with my own software startup, and it was the worst 
mistake I ever made in my life.

Either that, or I'm not a very good judge of character.  But 
to be on the safe side, don't make your friends your business 
partners.

Greed is a curious thing, and most people are not as immune 
to it as they might imagine.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV84RtKdLWPo08EOTq0001acff@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161637.04bc1d60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 04:53 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Mr. Raymond,
>
>Without putting too fine a point on it either, you seem to be confusing a
>number of business policies more properly attributed to other people at TSR,
>who among other things wound up unsucessfully suing Mr. Gygax over the game
>he created upon being forced out of TSR, with the actions of Mr. Gygax
>himself.

Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the 
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.  Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR when Mr. 
Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and co-authorship.

>You seem to wish to ignore that Mr. Arneson had nothing to do with
>expansions of the game following the initial publication.

Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and co-authorship.  TSR 
and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.

>As for the running of the company into the ground, this very specifically
>happened when people other than Mr. Gygax were running the company.

I will grant you that.  The Blume Brothers did not exactly paint themselves 
in glory.

>Concerning his antagonistic relationship with fans as well as game
>designers, from what I've witnessed this is a combination of Mr. Gygax being
>right about a number of things he said, and some rather intense jealously.

Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with 
a straight face.

>More than one would be fanboy or sycophant has tried sucking up and been
>rebuffed for getting something wrong and subsequently become an ardent
>internet defamer of Mr. Gygax and his works.

Not the people I am referring to.  Do keep in mind the dispute between TSR 
and Chaosium regarding the Lovecraftian Mythos, etc. (which involved the 
Lovecraft estate and Mr. Moorcock's solicitors), just as an example of 
something other than your generalization.

>As well, the professional
>jealousy of game designers whose command of the English language resembles
>that of a 3 year old when compared to Mr. Gygax, not to mention the truly
>questionable quality of some of their designs, should be highly suspect to
>anyone with a discerning eye.

Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?


>Is Gary a perfect person, always polite, and always humble about his
>accomplishments?
>No.
>Do I agree with everything he has ever said?
>No.
>Did he define multiple aspects of a hobby genre like Jack Kirby defined
>comics?
>Definitely.

And this is where we must part company.

Cheers!

Victor Raymond


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_94973383==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 04:53 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Mr. Raymond,<br><br>
Without putting too fine a point on it either, you seem to be confusing
a<br>
number of business policies more properly attributed to other people at
TSR,<br>
who among other things wound up unsucessfully suing Mr. Gygax over the
game<br>
he created upon being forced out of TSR, with the actions of Mr.
Gygax<br>
himself.</blockquote><br>
Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.&nbsp; Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR
when Mr. Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and
co-authorship.&nbsp; <br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>You seem to wish to ignore that Mr.
Arneson had nothing to do with<br>
expansions of the game following the initial
publication.</blockquote><br>
Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and
co-authorship.&nbsp; TSR and Arneson settled out of court for a
considerable sum.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As for the running of the company
into the ground, this very specifically<br>
happened when people other than Mr. Gygax were running the
company.</blockquote><br>
I will grant you that.&nbsp; The Blume Brothers did not exactly paint
themselves in glory.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Concerning his antagonistic
relationship with fans as well as game<br>
designers, from what I've witnessed this is a combination of Mr. Gygax
being<br>
right about a number of things he said, and some rather intense
jealously.</blockquote><br>
Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again
with a straight face.&nbsp; <br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>More than one would be fanboy or
sycophant has tried sucking up and been<br>
rebuffed for getting something wrong and subsequently become an
ardent<br>
internet defamer of Mr. Gygax and his works.</blockquote><br>
Not the people I am referring to.&nbsp; Do keep in mind the dispute
between TSR and Chaosium regarding the Lovecraftian Mythos, etc. (which
involved the Lovecraft estate and Mr. Moorcock's solicitors), just as an
example of something other than your generalization.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As well, the professional<br>
jealousy of game designers whose command of the English language
resembles<br>
that of a 3 year old when compared to Mr. Gygax, not to mention the
truly<br>
questionable quality of some of their designs, should be highly suspect
to<br>
anyone with a discerning eye.</blockquote><br>
Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Is Gary a perfect person, always
polite, and always humble about his<br>
accomplishments?<br>
No.<br>
Do I agree with everything he has ever said?<br>
No.<br>
Did he define multiple aspects of a hobby genre like Jack Kirby
defined<br>
comics?<br>
Definitely.</blockquote><br>
And this is where we must part company.<br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_94973383==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Neural Guns
Message-ID: <2237.1019490155@www44.gmx.net>

Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen,

I've got questions regarding Neural Weaponry.

All my knowledge is based on the few lines of Weapons Description and the
two inserts into the Weapons Price Table in the Imperial Encyclopedia/MT.

The Stats I could work out are...
Neural Pistol-16
no AmmoNotes, ? Rds, Pen/Att 10/-, special (but known) Dmg, MaxRange Long,
no AutofireTargets, no DangerSpace, Low Signature, Low Recoil, Difficulty as
Handgun
Neural Rifle-16
no AmmoNotes, ? Rds, Pen/Att 10/-, special (but known) Dmg, MaxRange Long,
no AutofireTargets, no Danger Space, LowSignature, Low Recoil, Difficulty as
Rifle
...just to show, that I thought before consulting TML

So now :

Are there any 'official' stats/rules regarding neural guns (probably hidden
in some secret supplement I don't know - there are many of these)?

My problem lies in (s.a.) ? Rds - How much ammunition does a neural pistol
or rifle pack? I think it would need a power pack, as energy weapons, which
would correspond roughly with the ammunition price and weight stated in the
weapons price table(?) How many shots per pack? Are there integral (or only
integral) versions, and how much shots would these have?

I'd be glad, if you shared your knowledge or opinion,
bye, Sebastian

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:31:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:31:38 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <200204222116.ETY00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422162357.04be58d0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_95312126==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 05:16 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
><snip Gygax stuff>
>
>Well, the basic lesson that I see in the whole Gygax thing
>is never, ever run a company and staff it with your friends.

Very very very true.  One thing that a friend who grew up in Lake Geneva 
once told me was that Don Kay (the "K" in the original "G/K" logo for TSR) 
was the only fellow that Mr. Gygax would listen to back then, in the case 
of disputes.  Kay died rather suddenly (see his obit in Strategic Review 
#2) - it would have been very very interesting to see how things might have 
turned out had he lived.

>
>I did that with my own software startup, and it was the worst
>mistake I ever made in my life.
>
>Either that, or I'm not a very good judge of character.  But
>to be on the safe side, don't make your friends your business
>partners.

Good advice.

There's gotta be an ObTrav for this - perhaps never hire your friends as 
crew for your Free Trader?  (But that would undermine most parties of 
adventurers!  Or is this merely an observation that the sorts of trouble 
the average group gets into is merely to be expected?  Oh, the 
possibilities....:))

Victor

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_95312126==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 05:16 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&lt;snip Gygax stuff&gt;<br><br>
Well, the basic lesson that I see in the whole Gygax thing<br>
is never, ever run a company and staff it with your friends.
</blockquote><br>
Very very very true.&nbsp; One thing that a friend who grew up in Lake
Geneva once told me was that Don Kay (the &quot;K&quot; in the original
&quot;G/K&quot; logo for TSR) was the only fellow that Mr. Gygax would
listen to back then, in the case of disputes.&nbsp; Kay died rather
suddenly (see his obit in Strategic Review #2) - it would have been very
very interesting to see how things might have turned out had he
lived.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&nbsp;<br>
I did that with my own software startup, and it was the worst <br>
mistake I ever made in my life.<br><br>
Either that, or I'm not a very good judge of character.&nbsp; But <br>
to be on the safe side, don't make your friends your business <br>
partners.</blockquote><br>
Good advice.<br><br>
There's gotta be an ObTrav for this - perhaps never hire your friends as
crew for your Free Trader?&nbsp; (But that would undermine most parties
of adventurers!&nbsp; Or is this merely an observation that the sorts of
trouble the average group gets into is merely to be expected?&nbsp; Oh,
the possibilities....:))<br><br>
Victor<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_95312126==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:34:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:34:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
> 1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
> (b) working because they are not concerned with the money aspect of
> the work, but are motivated by something else entirely.

Put me down as a 1b, shifting very rapidly into 3 due to my employer's
incompetence.


> 3.  Loafers (Very Large Majority)
>      These people realize that no matter how much (or how little)
> they work, they will get at least enough money to subsist

... true already in many countries ...


> and if they earn more, the government is likely to take it all from
> them.

More true under the current system (at least in Aus) than under the
proposed one.  Under the proposed system, if you work more you *will*
earn more, as opposed to Australia's current system where you can
often earn less.  Still, even Australia has unemployment less than
10%, most of it transient.  High, but hardly the "Very Large
Majority".


> Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were making an
> attempt at earning a living,

The fact that you get to increase your income substantially if you
work is reason enough.  As Mr. Uhl points out, you won't keep 100% of
your income, which is true for any government that imposes taxation.
It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
some part-time workers.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
In-Reply-To: <200204222013.g3MKDLi02407@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422144908.009e84c0@mindspring.com>

At 08:13 PM 4/22/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete 
>the
>process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be spending the evening
>of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San Francisco. If there are any
>fellow Travellers who would care to get to gether with me that evening for 
>beer
>and/or conversation, please let me know.

There are a few of us about..

Contact me by personal email and we'll work something out.  I'll forward 
this to the Traveller in SF list.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

>> and if they earn more, the government is likely to take it all from
>> them.
>
>More true under the current system (at least in Aus) than under the
>proposed one.  Under the proposed system, if you work more you *will*
>earn more, as opposed to Australia's current system where you can
>often earn less.  Still, even Australia has unemployment less than
>10%, most of it transient.  High, but hardly the "Very Large
>Majority".

But that is 10% of the working population. Add in people on disability
and women who stay home taking care of kids (which is a full-time job,
but means that they have to be supported form somewhere) and the
unemployed suddenly rises dramatically. In Norway for example we
have almost 1 million people (out of 4.5 million population) on
disability (full time and part time). And that is what is breaking
our backs. Most of those people would be able to work full time
but since they can get away with a check from the state due to
disability......

>> Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were making an
>> attempt at earning a living,
>
>The fact that you get to increase your income substantially if you
>work is reason enough.  As Mr. Uhl points out, you won't keep 100% of
>your income, which is true for any government that imposes taxation.
>It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
>some part-time workers.

True, so true. But the wierd thing is that those people have to get
that money back from the state somehow, as social security or what ever
to survive. It's the state taking money and then giving it back again!

Tommy Grav


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <20020422.182803.-145167.1.Knightsky@juno.com>


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Kiri Aradia Morgan
<tiamat@tsoft.com> writes:
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Frank Pitt wrote:
> 
> > Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> > > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> > 
> > Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
> > 
> > Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
> > <grin>
> > 
> I'd have to agree.

Seconded.

                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:36:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:36:46 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <20020422.182803.-145167.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:50:37 -0400 "William Lane" <wlane@aessuccess.org>
writes:
> 
> >> Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> >> > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> >>
> >> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
> >>
> >> Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
> >> <grin>
> >>
> >I'd have to agree.
> 
> Please forgive my stupidity but who or what is Shooter?

Jim Shooter, editor-in-chief of Marvel Comics during the late 70s & early
80's.  Not without his virtues and talents, he is nonetheless known for
his heavy-handed, sledgehammer approach to acting as editor, and has
managed to alienate to this day many of the creative people in the comics
industry. 



                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"







________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:39:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:39:37 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on 
> this) had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
> role-playing industry.

I'm not certain I agree with this.  I've seen different accounts of
various proto-RPGs pre-1973 (and unfortunately, no, I don't have sources
to quote at the moment - sorry); the idea for a RPG did not spring solely
from Arnenson and Gygax... they were simply the first to *market* the
idea. 

I believe that RPGs *would* have eventually been published by other
people even if D&D had never existed, they would have simply appeared a
few years later.  And... if D&D had not been the first, then perhaps the
rest of the industry would not have needed to spend so much effort the
last 3 decades trying desperately to get away from the various clunky
aspects of D&D that Gygax pushed as being "the one true way" of
roleplaying...

> Very likely there would have been no card came industry ("Magic-the 
> gathering of spare cash", etc)

And this is a bad thing HOW...?  ;-)


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:52:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:52:11 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204221544240.16983-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 knightsky@juno.com wrote:

> > Very likely there would have been no card came industry ("Magic-the 
> > gathering of spare cash", etc)
> 
> And this is a bad thing HOW...?  ;-)

Well, the introduction of those awful CCG's freed up a lot of my evenings,
(because my gaming group turned into Magic zombies) and I got married
shortly after that...

yeah, right.

Nuke 'em.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:56:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:56:07 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <200204222116.ETY00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204221546070.16983-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Greed is a curious thing, and most people are not as immune 
> to it as they might imagine.

No, they aren't, and all kinds of human emotions that don't obviously have
any connection to the issue are tied up in money and business.  Doing
business together will either solidify or completely destroy a family, a
friendship, a marriage, or a lovers' bond.  It is like sleeping with your
best friend after 10+ years of platonic friendship; the reward if you
succeed and it all works out is truly wonderful, but the risk is your
heart and your spirit, and braver souls than me or thee have declined to
take it.

Kiri ^_^ (who worked on a small press magazine with two men, best friends
who are still best friends-- one of whom is now her ex-fiance and the
other her ex-husband, and still adores them both-- from the other side of
the continent.)

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>
References: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net> <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <20020423090608.A5160@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tim wrote:
[...regarding "group 3"...]
> > Still, even Australia has unemployment less than 10%, most of it
> >transient.  High, but hardly the "Very Large Majority".

Tommy Grav wrote:
> But that is 10% of the working population. Add in people on
> disability

... who are already being paid for by the government anyway, so no
extra cost there, and most of whom wouldn't be able to work if they
wanted to.  Hence the majority of them are not in group 3.


> and women who stay home taking care of kids

At the moment, they're already surviving.  Either by husbands (who
hence have a lower disposable income) or by the government.  Either
way, they're already accounted for.  They are also certainly not in
group 3!


> >It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
> >some part-time workers.
> 
> True, so true. But the wierd thing is that those people have to get
> that money back from the state somehow,

No, they don't.  That's the point; it's the ones who don't work at all
who get the money from the state.  I'll give an example:

An unemployed person (e.g, me) got about A$170/week in direct cash
benefits, about $40/week in rent assistance, paid 50% less for public
transport, up to 90% less on medicines, and further 10-50% concessions
on a range of things as diverse as internet access, movie tickets,
house insurance, power, and telephone bills.  His net income was $210
per week.  (If this person had a child, he/she would get the full
child care subsidy, quite a substantial amount.  But I'm not
personally familiar with exactly how much so I'll leave it out).

Suppose he works part time.  His employment income is say A$300 per
week, but the government takes income taxes of about $50/week from
that.  He no longer receives unemployment benefits, rent assistance,
and would receive greatly reduced child care allowance (again, leaving
it out due to lack of personal experience).  He pays full price for
public transport, various utility bills, medical expenses, and other
things adding up to about $70/week.  He no longer receives any rent
assistance.  After living expenses, his net income has dropped by $30
compared with unemployment.

So for $300 worth of work (about 15-20 hours), he nets $30 *less* than
if he was unemployed, thus keeping -10% of the wages from his extra
effort.  That's still enough to survive on, but *extremely*
discouraging.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 17:19:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:19:40 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CC499EA.1020901@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>>Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on 
>>this) had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
>>role-playing industry.
> 
> 
> I'm not certain I agree with this.  I've seen different accounts of
> various proto-RPGs pre-1973 (and unfortunately, no, I don't have sources
> to quote at the moment - sorry); the idea for a RPG did not spring solely
> from Arnenson and Gygax... they were simply the first to *market* the
> idea. 

I never said they were the only source, merely the first _wildly 
successful_ one. Quality is no guarantee of success, witness MS Windows 
and AOL.

Neither of them were the first in their genre, nor even the best, but 
there is little doubt that they are the 800 pound gorillas of the market.

D&D may not have been pure in a mechanical sense, but like BASIC, and 
'You have SPAM!' it is now the de-facto standard of comparison..the 
reason it got there is because it was 'the fustest with the mostest'.

(says an old-timer who remembers back when 'September on the Net' 
actually meant that it was, indeed, September...ahh those halcyon 
pre-AOL, pre-Prodigy, pre-Compuserv days...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 17:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Product Announcement
Message-ID: <016701c1ea59$53179d50$969393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0162_01C1EA61.9C2DD060
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Just a quick note to inform the Traveller community that we (Quiklink =
Interactive) will be putting the first "LBB PDF" up for sale in a few =
days.

This will be "Traveller's Aide #1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space"

Designed specifically for use with CT and T20, most of the information =
within is compatible with any version of Traveller; stats can be =
converted from CT to other rules sets as necessary.

Contents include:

- Extra combat rules
- Details of weapon scanner technologies and how to beat them
- A selection of large and small arms firms within the Imperium
- Some unique or special weapons
- The Imperial Weapons Permit System,=20
- A comprehensive guide to smallarms and melee weapons, with compiled CT =
and T20 data tables for all the weapons listed.

More news is available on the Quiklink website: =
http://www.travellerrpg.com/


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses

------=_NextPart_000_0162_01C1EA61.9C2DD060
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just&nbsp;a quick note to inform the =
Traveller=20
community that we (Quiklink Interactive) will be putting the first "LBB =
PDF" up=20
for sale in a few days.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This will be "Traveller's Aide #1: =
Personal Weapons=20
of Charted Space"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Designed specifically for use with CT =
and T20, most=20
of the information within is compatible with any version of Traveller; =
stats can=20
be converted from CT to other rules sets as necessary.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Contents include:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Extra combat rules</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Details of weapon scanner =
technologies and how to=20
beat them</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- A selection of large and small arms =
firms within=20
the Imperium</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Some unique or special =
weapons</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- The Imperial Weapons Permit System, =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-&nbsp;A comprehensive guide to =
smallarms and melee=20
weapons, with compiled CT and T20 data tables for all the weapons=20
listed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>More news is available on the Quiklink =
website: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.travellerrpg.com/">http://www.travellerrpg.com/</A></F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0162_01C1EA61.9C2DD060--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:06:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:06:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Neural Guns
References: <20020422220007.4ED0F279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC4A483.8DEF4B63@earthlink.net>

S.Feige

> Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
> I've got questions regarding Neural Weaponry.
> 
> All my knowledge is based on the few lines of Weapons Description and the
> two inserts into the Weapons Price Table in the Imperial Encyclopedia/MT.
> 
> The Stats I could work out are...

Even though someone's probably already answered your questions, I
thought I'd post anyway. Apologies for any waste of bandwidth.

Challenge #46 has them worked up in detail for MT. The specs are:

Neural weapons have 2 settings: stun and kill.

Stun will inflict as many damage points as necessary to render
the target unconscious, up to the weapon's limit.

Kill inflicts the full damage pont capability, whatever the
target's condition.

Should a mishap occur (marginal success), roll 2D on the Mishap
Table. Whether the damage modifier is added or subtracted can
be determined randomly or using Murphy's Law. If the intention
was to stun, increase damage; if the intention was to kill,
decrease damage.

TL   Type           Psi-Pen   DMs             Dam   Difficulty
---------------------------------------------------------------
16   Neural Rifle     10      As direct fire   7    Rifle
16   Neural Pistol    10      As direct fire   5    Handgun


David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
References: <20020422190106.A61D4279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002601c1ea5d$32d89f40$d3b18b90@computer>

> From: Steven Hudson
>   Given the role of the army in political strife in the later Empire,
> maybe the empire would have functioned better without any of those
> classes in the legions :|

Look how well it worked when they replaced them with barbarians.  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <200204221459.g3MExjP00155@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3CC55510.8412.A77E03@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002 at 7:58, Steven Hudson wrote:
>   That's why I went with "arguably" - it can be presented either way,
> with the big issue being whether some of those positions (eg, a Roman
> centurion) were officers or NCO's. By the social standards of the
> non-professionals in command (& staff) at Legion level they were only
> commoners for almost all purposes, but the Legion could sooner function
> without any of those patricians or equites than it could with even half
> of the centurionate absent.
> 
>   Given the role of the army in political strife in the later Empire,
> maybe the empire would have functioned better without any of those
> classes in the legions :|

Well the importance of even centurions in much of that strife argues 
for them being considered officers - very few coups in the modern world 
are started and managed by sergeants.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:38:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:38:29 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC55510.9619.A77EB7@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 7:29, Timothy Little wrote:

> The fact that you get to increase your income substantially if you
> work is reason enough.  As Mr. Uhl points out, you won't keep 100% of
> your income, which is true for any government that imposes taxation.
> It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
> some part-time workers.

Doesn't quite happen in NZ, but even ignoring GST (being a sales tax 
it's relatively invisible most of the time) the effective tax rate for 
being a low-income part-time worker can be up around 85%.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:41:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:41:12 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002 at 7:41, Paul Walker wrote:
> Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is 10,000Cr. 
> If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away 10,000
> of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick.  In
> my mind, this situation would produce three types of
> people:

You're assuming that 50% of the population does no work, here.
 
> 1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
>      These people continue to earn as much as they
> can, either (a) hoping that maybe the government will
> not need all of it to pay for those not at poverty
> level and that they will get to keep the extra
> (doubtful) or (b) working because they are not
> concerned with the money aspect of the work, but are
> motivated by something else entirely.

Why is it doubtful?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423090608.A5160@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <3CC55776.26351.B0DA34@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 9:06, Timothy Little wrote:
> An unemployed person (e.g, me) got about A$170/week in direct cash
> benefits, about $40/week in rent assistance, paid 50% less for public
> transport, up to 90% less on medicines, and further 10-50% concessions
> on a range of things as diverse as internet access, movie tickets,
> house insurance, power, and telephone bills.  His net income was $210
> per week.  (If this person had a child, he/she would get the full
> child care subsidy, quite a substantial amount.  But I'm not
> personally familiar with exactly how much so I'll leave it out).

Now I know why New Zealanders were so keen on going to Aussie to loaf 
round on the dole and surf (or so the Aussie government would like 
everyone to think). Here the base rate for an over 25 is (IIRC) NZ$157 
per week, rent support of about 1/3 of your rent. There's also 
considerable subsidy on your medicines (over and above what everyone 
gets), and some on public transport, but that's about it.
 
> Suppose he works part time.  His employment income is say A$300 per
> week, but the government takes income taxes of about $50/week from
> that.  He no longer receives unemployment benefits, rent assistance,
> and would receive greatly reduced child care allowance (again, leaving
> it out due to lack of personal experience).  He pays full price for
> public transport, various utility bills, medical expenses, and other
> things adding up to about $70/week.  He no longer receives any rent
> assistance.  After living expenses, his net income has dropped by $30
> compared with unemployment.
> 
> So for $300 worth of work (about 15-20 hours), he nets $30 *less* than
> if he was unemployed, thus keeping -10% of the wages from his extra
> effort.  That's still enough to survive on, but *extremely*
> discouraging.

We just have a (low) point after which you lose 70% of your dole for 
each dollar (gross) that you earn. You also lose the rent assistance at 
a smaller rate at the same time, and IIRC that starts as soon as you 
earn any money. The only reason this doesn't give an effective rate of 
over 100% is that the rent assistance is usually all gone by the time 
the reduction in the dole starts. Still working on a minimum wage job 
for an in-the-hand hourly rate of about NZ$1.00 - 1.50 isn't very 
encouraging.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Product Announcement
In-Reply-To: <016701c1ea59$53179d50$969393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <016701c1ea59$53179d50$969393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <200204222051330083.CE6F127D@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 4/23/2002 at 12:55 AM MJ Dougherty wrote:

>Just a quick note to inform the Traveller community that we (Quiklink=
 Interactive) will be putting the first "LBB PDF" up for sale in a few=
 days.
>
>This will be "Traveller's Aide #1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space"
>
>Designed specifically for use with CT and T20, most of the information=
 within is compatible with any version of Traveller; stats can be converted=
 from CT to other rules sets as necessary.

For those interested, I have just put up a preliminary webpage for this=
 product with a small sample of 3 pages (and the cover)

http://www.TravellerRPG.com/PDF/ta0001.html

As Martin noted, this PDF should be available for purchase within the next=
 2-3 days

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020423005500.10756.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 03:35 PM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Pilots are officers because the military does not
> >want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> >flying a $30 million airplane when it
> crashed.....even
> >though the average fighter jock is holding
> essentially
> >the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
> >arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
> >that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
> >wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
> >why........
> 
> That being said, during WWII the Germans used
> enlisted pilots, as did the 
> RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying
> sergeants, since they thought 
> there was no reason to tie up perfectly good
> officers in what was 
> essentially a technical skill.  That died as
> carriers came to the fore, and 
> more Marines came to be stationed on ships. Many of
> the old Flying 
> Sergeants received reserve commissions as officers,
> while retaining their 
> permanent rank as enlisted men.
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       
>
  >>
  ...My point....MAC
  >>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:59:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:59:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <008201c1e814$658fd700$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020423005823.20768.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > From: Michael Cessna
> >   Pilots are officers because the military does
> not
> > want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> > flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....
> 
> No.  The 'pilots are officers' thing dates all the
> way back to the
> beginnings of military aviation.
> 
> The logic, presumably, was that a pilot was a
> gentleman and an educated
> professional, of a higher social class to the mere
> tradesmen and mechanics
> that worked on the ground.
> 
> There have been exceptions - "Flight Sergeants"
> occasionally served as
> pilots in WWII.
> 
> Winston Churchill's comments on Naval Tradition
> apply to the traditions of
> other services too, to a considerable extent.  Don't
> try to find present day
> logic in them.
> 
> Alan Bradley
> 
  >>
  Actually, it dates from almost the beginning of
Marine Aviation. While the first Marine (and Naval)
Aviator was an officer, he was quickly followed in
Central American service, by enlisted pilots. This
tradition, although frowned upon by the Navy,
continued until just after the end of WW2.

   MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] officer selection traits
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020422200846.039e5b10@pop.wizard.net>

Hey!  Thanks for posting that link earlier to the Inc. magazine article 
about what the USMC looks for in officer selection.  The Robert E. Lee they 
talk about used to be my OIC fifteen years ago or so.  He was a major then 
and I was a corporal.  He is one of the finest officers I'll ever have the 
honor to meet.  (My father, both my grandfathers, my uncles, and lots of 
other blood relations were career officers themselves, so that was not an 
idle compliment.)  Yeah, I'm sure Bob Lee had leadership traits, judgment, 
and management ability in spades even back when he was a boot lieutenant 
barely old enough to shave.

I still remember him describing that assignment aboard that freighter full 
of refugees and adrift in the Phillipine Sea in 1975.  It was classified 
for a long time, but eventually it was declassified and eventually after 
that someone persuaded him to write it up for the Marine Corps 
Gazette.  Bob Lee was never a self promoter, the description you read in 
the Inc magazine article is very, very toned down from what happened.  The 
Gazette article has some of the more gut wrenching stuff left out, too.

I've used that incident and Bob Lee more than once in my own gaming.  It's 
the stuff of high adventure.

The only reason I've ever been able to find for having the incident 
classified was to avoid political embarrassment.  Reasons of national 
defense really didn't apply.  If you want to research the Marine Corps 
Gazette article that Bob Lee wrote about it, search for an article written 
by Robert E. Lee (I believe major at the time) published in the late 
1980s.  I recommend it as a small Traveller adventure.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <200204230113.EUF04788@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Kiri Aradia Morgan says
>Kiri ^_^ (who worked on a small press magazine with two men, 
>best friends who are still best friends-- one of whom is now 
>her ex-fiance and the other her ex-husband, and still adores 
>them both-- from the other side of the continent.)
>

Ah, I know that one.  My ex-wife, on very hot summer days, 
would say, "I love you from over here."
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV66kY7QNSljIazjBl0001b1b6@hotmail.com>

Victor Raymond wrote,

>I would definitely agree with you about this.  My point is that if you
should praise Gygax, you ought to also praise David L. Arneson, as well -
it's only fair.  Gygax wouldn't have had D&D if Arneson had not started
doing Blackmoor.  And there is a fair bit to point out that isn't so
praiseworthy.<

Then the complaint should be that the quote should read "Gygax and Arneson
are to gaming what Kirby and Lee were to comics", not that the half
presented is someone false.

>Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.  Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR when Mr.
Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and co-authorship.<
and,
>Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and co-authorship.  TSR
and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.<

Not according to what I've heard.
Which is that Arneson wished no part in developing the game into what became
AD&D. Thus the desire to not continue paying royalties when he was doing no
work.
While there is likely more to it than that, the point is there may be
another view.

>I will grant you that.  The Blume Brothers did not exactly paint themselves
in glory.<

And don't forget Lorraine Williams.

>Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with
a straight face. <

If you mean "Chess, Poker, and the AD&D game system", then I not only say
that with a straight face, I submit it as proof of my position.
The simple fact is, however poorly it may have been stated or received, Gary
was absolutely right. The proof of that is in the development of the RPGA
and the Living City Campaign, which required a single, standard set of
rules, with little to no variation, in order to organize and manage a
national campaign.
The only problem with what Gary said was there was no organization to make
what he said stick.

>Not the people I am referring to.  Do keep in mind the dispute between TSR
and Chaosium regarding the Lovecraftian Mythos, etc. (which involved the
Lovecraft estate and Mr. Moorcock's solicitors), just as an example of
something other than your generalization.<

I am aware of that.
Are you aware that Gary contacted Chaosium and negotiated a mutual promotion
to resolve the matter but the Blumes squashed the deal because they didn't
want to give any support to anyone else?

>Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?<

Is that really necessary?

I wish to refute various assertions as to the failures of Gary Gygax that
are, quite simply tainted by a less than positive view of the individual. If
we are to judge by that standard, then I don't think anyone will survive.
Whatever Gary's failings as an individual might be, they most certainly do
not detract from his accomplishments as a game designer.
Further, when that is what people use to diminish those accomplishments, it
does, to me, speak more of their failings than the person they are seeking
to tear down.


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <200204230113.EUF04788@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204221831540.3200-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Kiri Aradia Morgan says
> >Kiri ^_^ (who worked on a small press magazine with two men, 
> >best friends who are still best friends-- one of whom is now 
> >her ex-fiance and the other her ex-husband, and still adores 
> >them both-- from the other side of the continent.)
> >
> 
> Ah, I know that one.  My ex-wife, on very hot summer days, 
> would say, "I love you from over here."

:)

ikaros is one of my dearest friends in the world, actually.  But turns out
he's gay, not bi, so the marriage didn't quite work out like we thought it
would.

The Vanguard years were "...the best of times, the worst of times..." in
spades.  We really found out who our friends actually were.

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <f9.1b1126af.29f61465@aol.com>

As it happens, I am quite good friends with both Gary Gygax, and Dave 
Arneson, and I am better acquainted than most with their contributions to the 
hobby. I am the better for knowing them, and for having worked with both of 
them.

They are happy to share the title: "Co-creators of Roleplaying" and with good 
reason, because they invented it. Much like Gilbert and Sullivan, they have 
their mutual antagonisms, but for the time they worked together, they 
invented the industry by which I now make a living. Something like 
roleplaying might have come about without them, because others were thinking 
along the same lines at about the same time, but they made it happen. 
Traveller would not exist without them. I'd be a game publisher, but it would 
be a radically altered industry, primarily board wargames and miniatures 
rules . . . 

Both Gary and Dave admit they missed opportunities. Who of us hasn't? 
However, I am not willing to press "reset" and eliminate one or the other of 
their contributions just to see what would happen. THings could have turned 
out a LOT worse.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Traveler Ring
In-Reply-To: <3CC4A483.8DEF4B63@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001e01c1ea6a$29c788a0$2f7de40c@loki>

This is the ever occasional and irregular annoyance declaring the
existence of the...

Traveller Web Ring
http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=traveller;action=info

If you have a Traveller web site come on board and we'll spread the
community.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019492558.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20422.181710.3T8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
>> "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
>> > eliminate poverty?
>> 
>> The government defines a poverty line.  People at and near that 
>> point pay no income taxes.  Anyone with an income greater than 
>> that pays a graduated tax, depending upon how far above it they 
>> are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the 
>> government (much like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any 
>> money in) to give them money equal to being at the poverty line.  
>
> Not quite; one idea behind negative income tax as I'm aware of it is that 
> it's
> supposed to eliminate the welfare effect where by getting a job, your income
> doesn't improve.  Thus, if the poverty line is $10,000/year and you made less
> than that, tax would be something like 50% of income - $5,000, so if you made
> $2,000/year, your taxes would be -$4,000/year.

The version I recall being interested in was one that included a flat
rate tax.

So say the "poverty line" was $10, and the tax rate was 10%. 

So your taxes would be (income - $10,000)*0.1.

income	taxes
------	------
20,000	1,000
15,000	  500
10,000	    0
 5,000	  500
     0	1,000

Obviously, you'd want to move the break point up, or the tax rate up or
both to get a true replacement for welfare.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:16:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:16:33 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <000001c1ea22$d25c5a60$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <20422.182252.6Q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> If anyone in the Portland/Vancouver area that is on this list hears
> about any job that could use someone good with computers or telecom,
> please email me off-list.

I'm trying to scrape by until I can sell some property. Alas, it looks
like I need to spend several hundred bucks I can't afford just to make
the property likely to sell... :-(

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:19:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:19:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDBDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20422.183614.1Z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> You have that exactly backwards. The LL say it's physical, which might fall
> under the ADA if you thinks it is handicapping you in some way. The RR (and
> the Pope) say it is an act of the will, meaning sin.

No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
sex isn't a sin.

*Acting* upon that attraction (ie engaging in homsexual sex acts) is
what's the sin.

The confusion is due to the common error of confusing "being
homosexual" with being a *practicing* homosexual. Not the same thing.

And it makes sense. If you had to actually be performing the
appropriate type of sex acts to have a given sexual orientation, then
nobody who doesn't have an active sex life would *have* a sexual
orientation. Which is utter nonsense.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV66kY7QNSljIazjBl0001b1b6@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422212448.04e52de0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_113567595==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 09:14 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the
>original dispute with Mr. Arneson.  Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR when Mr.
>Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and co-authorship.<
>and,
> >Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and co-authorship.  TSR
>and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.<
>
>Not according to what I've heard.

Well, since I've talked with Dave Arneson many times over the past twenty 
years, I've gotten it from the source.

>Which is that Arneson wished no part in developing the game into what became
>AD&D. Thus the desire to not continue paying royalties when he was doing no
>work.

Not at ALL what Dave has said.  And "not continue paying royalties" is 
incorrect - TSR stopped paying royalties very early on in the history of 
the production of D&D.

> >Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with
>a straight face. <
>
>If you mean "Chess, Poker, and the AD&D game system", then I not only say
>that with a straight face, I submit it as proof of my position.

I was referring to "View From the Telescope Wondering Which End is Which" 
in issue #11.  My apologies.  Now go back and say that with a straight face.

>(Re:  Chaosium) I am aware of that.
>Are you aware that Gary contacted Chaosium and negotiated a mutual promotion
>to resolve the matter but the Blumes squashed the deal because they didn't
>want to give any support to anyone else?

No, but good to know.  Nice to be clear that the Blumes were the direct 
problem there.


> >Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?<
>
>Is that really necessary?

Well, given the sweeping statement you made, yes.  Unless this counts as a 
retraction.


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_113567595==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 09:14 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out
of TSR, true - but that came later than the<br>
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.&nbsp; Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR
when Mr.<br>
Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and
co-authorship.&lt;<br>
and,<br>
&gt;Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and
co-authorship.&nbsp; TSR<br>
and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.&lt;<br><br>
Not according to what I've heard.</blockquote><br>
Well, since I've talked with Dave Arneson many times over the past twenty
years, I've gotten it from the source.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Which is that Arneson wished no
part in developing the game into what became<br>
AD&amp;D. Thus the desire to not continue paying royalties when he was
doing no<br>
work.</blockquote><br>
Not at ALL what Dave has said.&nbsp; And &quot;not continue paying
royalties&quot; is incorrect - TSR stopped paying royalties very early on
in the history of the production of D&amp;D.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;Go re-read his editorial in
Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with<br>
a straight face. &lt;<br><br>
If you mean &quot;Chess, Poker, and the AD&amp;D game system&quot;, then
I not only say<br>
that with a straight face, I submit it as proof of my
position.</blockquote><br>
I was referring to &quot;View From the Telescope Wondering Which End is
Which&quot; in issue #11.&nbsp; My apologies.&nbsp; Now go back and say
that with a straight face.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>(Re:&nbsp; Chaosium) I am aware of
that.<br>
Are you aware that Gary contacted Chaosium and negotiated a mutual
promotion<br>
to resolve the matter but the Blumes squashed the deal because they
didn't<br>
want to give any support to anyone else?</blockquote><br>
No, but good to know.&nbsp; Nice to be clear that the Blumes were the
direct problem there.<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;Care to name any names, Mr.
Weiss?&lt;<br><br>
Is that really necessary?</blockquote><br>
Well, given the sweeping statement you made, yes.&nbsp; Unless this
counts as a retraction.<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_113567595==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <f9.1b1126af.29f61465@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422213416.04e54920@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_113712064==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

What Loren said.  While I've known Mr. Arneson much better than Mr. Gygax, 
I think Loren says it right.  Thanks!

Victor

At 09:35 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>As it happens, I am quite good friends with both Gary Gygax, and Dave
>Arneson, and I am better acquainted than most with their contributions to the
>hobby. I am the better for knowing them, and for having worked with both of
>them.
>
>They are happy to share the title: "Co-creators of Roleplaying" and with good
>reason, because they invented it. Much like Gilbert and Sullivan, they have
>their mutual antagonisms, but for the time they worked together, they
>invented the industry by which I now make a living. Something like
>roleplaying might have come about without them, because others were thinking
>along the same lines at about the same time, but they made it happen.
>Traveller would not exist without them. I'd be a game publisher, but it would
>be a radically altered industry, primarily board wargames and miniatures
>rules . . .
>
>Both Gary and Dave admit they missed opportunities. Who of us hasn't?
>However, I am not willing to press "reset" and eliminate one or the other of
>their contributions just to see what would happen. THings could have turned
>out a LOT worse.
>
>LKW
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_113712064==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
What Loren said.&nbsp; While I've known Mr. Arneson much better than Mr.
Gygax, I think Loren says it right.&nbsp; Thanks!<br><br>
Victor<br><br>
At 09:35 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As it happens, I am quite good
friends with both Gary Gygax, and Dave <br>
Arneson, and I am better acquainted than most with their contributions to
the <br>
hobby. I am the better for knowing them, and for having worked with both
of <br>
them.<br><br>
They are happy to share the title: &quot;Co-creators of Roleplaying&quot;
and with good <br>
reason, because they invented it. Much like Gilbert and Sullivan, they
have <br>
their mutual antagonisms, but for the time they worked together, they
<br>
invented the industry by which I now make a living. Something like <br>
roleplaying might have come about without them, because others were
thinking <br>
along the same lines at about the same time, but they made it happen.
<br>
Traveller would not exist without them. I'd be a game publisher, but it
would <br>
be a radically altered industry, primarily board wargames and miniatures
<br>
rules . . . <br><br>
Both Gary and Dave admit they missed opportunities. Who of us hasn't?
<br>
However, I am not willing to press &quot;reset&quot; and eliminate one or
the other of <br>
their contributions just to see what would happen. THings could have
turned <br>
out a LOT worse.<br><br>
LKW<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
TML mailing list<br>
TML@travellercentral.com<br>
<a href="http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml" eudora="autourl">http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml</a></blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_113712064==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20422.183614.1Z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEDKDMAA.tml@downport.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>
> No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
> homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
> sex isn't a sin.

You misstate the RR POV, which says there is no *being* in the equation.
That would suggest something physical. They tend to deny causation outside
of the fallen (sin) condition. You correctly stated the RCC position, which
like the jewish view holds that only the act is condemnable.

ObTrav: at what LL do we see the appearance of the Thought Police? Can they
exist at any LL, for 1 on up where the technology or psionic ability exists
to determine intent before action? Or does there have to be a high LL before
your thoughts become criminal?

_____________________________________________
The Traveller Web Portal
http://www.downport.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW! I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <F20Jpjc0D543TuylJc000000369@hotmail.com>

From: Jeff Zeitlin <editor@freelancetraveller.com>

     "...indicating that he wants to make Freelance Traveller the 
rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively flattering;..."


Mr. Zeitlin,

     Flattering it may be, but it also an award that you richly deserve, 
sir.  You EARNED it through both superb editing work and constant labor in 
maintaining such a fine web site.

     "Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who 
has allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work 
more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as 
you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people 
like you are too valuable to lose."

     Others may help in providing content, but the presentation is yours 
alone and that is the reason you and your site are being recognised.  The 
best of content, arranged in a haphazard, harum-scarum manner in a 
ill-designed site, would have been lost.  You crafted a wonderful showcase 
AND selected a pleasing variety of things to display within it AND ensured 
those items were well crafted.  The recognition and accolades are yours and 
yours alone, as they should be.
     Look at the "Wounded Colossus" material.  I originally posted it to the 
TML in several disjointed, rambling posts over the period of a month, 
nothing more than ill-spelled mess of grammatical horrors which contained 
some ideas that struck the List's fancy.
     You, Mr. Zeitlin, took all that dross and refined it.  You patiently 
collected each post, corrected the gaffes, goofs, and faux pas, cleaned up 
the presentation, whittled away redundancies, and acted in every way as a 
true editor, the type of editor ever writer should have.  You made the 
"Wounded Colossus" material far better than it had been when it left my 
hands.  That is why you have been honored.
     My congratulations, sir.  This honor are well deserved and long 
overdue.  Bravo, sir!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. Whipsnade, aka William R. Cameron

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:11:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:11:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F167tLLVTnE9Q3uQIhN00007388@hotmail.com>

From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>

     "EXCUSE ME? After your "Colossus" posts detailing your alternate ending 
to the MT Rebellion, I'll be happy to debate your statement with you or 
anyone else."

     "That was a masterful piece of work, sir, and one that has become a 
permanent part of my MT campaigns. I haven't seen much of your other work 
but quality, not quantity, is the mark of excellence (as Imperium Games 
found out the hard way)."


Mr. Smart,

     Thank you, sir, you are very kind.  I was fortunate in having the 
active participation of the List while posting WC.  I was doubly fortunate 
that Mr. Zeitlin both accepted it for inclusion in his site and polished it 
to a high luster.
     However, despite producing the "Colossus" material, I am not the best 
of web surfers or researchers!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F35zRPTNZStgLzhVOJw00000252@hotmail.com>

From: "Beth" <shylady69@runbox.com>

     "It's OK, nothing to worry about.  Everything will be alright.  Why 
don't you follow these two gentlemen to a nice comfy room we have for you.  
All padded and quiet.  Latter we will feed you.  We hope that you like 
pudding.  We will even fit you with a new jacket as well."


Ms. Shylady,

     I do enjoy a good pudding, but it so hard to grip the spoon with one's 
toes...
     May I also send along my condolences with regards to your bouts of 
Whipsnade's Syndrome?  "Brain Flatulence", as it is commonly known, is a 
horrid affliction.  The other day, I left the Whipsande Manse, Casa Diablo, 
without first putting on socks.  I didn't even notice my lack of socks until 
the local constabulary had run me in for not wearing pants.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422212448.04e52de0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV142mduL7Uu9Pyo250001b287@hotmail.com>

>Well, since I've talked with Dave Arneson many times over the past twenty
years, I've gotten it from the source.<

And since I've talked with Gary Gygax, so have I.

>Not at ALL what Dave has said.  And "not continue paying royalties" is
incorrect - TSR stopped paying royalties very early on in the history of the
production of D&D.<

Well I guess they have different opinions of how it went down.

>I was referring to "View From the Telescope Wondering Which End is Which"
in issue #11.  My apologies.  Now go back and say that with a straight
face.<

I don't have access to that.
Either way, it wouldn't really matter. You see, I've heard worse than
anything I've ever seen in print directed at me personally by Gary. So
anything sent in general will simply amuse me by how mild the statements
are.

>Well, given the sweeping statement you made, yes.  Unless this counts as a
retraction.<

It is not a retraction, but I will not elaborate on it. I see no reason to
engage in the gratuitous slamming of people just to satisfy your curiousity.
It will have to suffice that I've read critiques of Gary's work by people
whose works I regard as jokes.

Instead, I would also support what Loren said. I would simply note that no
one was eliminated by the statement being discussed. What you have it a
statement of support and admiration by someone who only regularly
communicates with one of the people involved. But it seems rather than being
satisfied with suggesting, as I did, that the statement is best completed by
adding, Arneson and Lee, people would rather go to attacking Gary.


Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 22:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon Apr 22 21:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <20020422041531.74282.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DAV43ywkGmY8TkomDt500003bb3@hotmail.com>

James Ramsay wrote:


> Until we develop AI or very very sophisticated system
> this would be useless in the real world.

I agree.  I suppose the system developer would claim he _had_ created a very
very sophisticated system.  I wouldn't presume to judge until I'd seen it in
operation, but I'm fairly skeptical that this things ready to set the world
on fire.

> How does a
> computer now whether a person is reaching for a gun or
> there wallet? Answer they can't.

Police and security officers, while performing lightyears beyond computers,
have a less than unblemished record in this regard.

> All it can do is
> determine that an image of a person looks like its
> reaching for something.

I think the system may scan pedestrian crowds looking for non-typical
patterns of traffic movement.  (Person X has passed the jewelry store 5
times in the past 10 minutes, while persons Y and Z have been loitering a
few yards away for about the same amount of time.  I'd better wake Officer
Friendly.)  Admittedly, this assumption is based on the WAG Algorithm.

> If they stopped wasting money
> on tech dreams such as this actual humans could be
> hired.

If by "tech dreams" you mean any new research, I disagree with the
philosophy implicit in your statement.  If, on the other hand, you mean
pie-in-the-sky nonsense, we're on the same page.

I'm mindful of a company some years ago that did quite well for itself in
the Texas area selling a "sniffer" gadget.  Their product was a box with a
few dials, some lights, and an antenna.  They marketed their product as
being able to sense drugs, explosives, and fire accelerants.  Based on some
slick brochures and some test demonstrations (where the fix was in, of
course) a number of schools, security firms and (sigh) police departments
purchased this fraudulent piece of garbage.

I don't know if the Cromatica system will turn out to be research or
pie-in-the-sky nonsense.

> And for a very long time into the future humans
> (even the ones typically hired as security guards)
> will have more reasoning ability than all the
> computers in the world!

I couldn't agree more.  And this touches on my real quibble with this or any
other advance that makes something like law enforcement/security easier or
more convenient.

    <Old Coot Rant: Enable>

Eaiser and more convenient don't necessarily translate to better.

In general, and all other things being equal:

Who's more diligent?
 a guard at a building with doors open to the public
or
 a guard at a building with biometric security.

Who knows more (in his/her head) about the people and area (s)he polices?
a cop of today with a car, cell phone, two way radio and mobile data
terminal
or
a cop of eighty years ago who walked a beat, contacted headquarters from a
call box, and was forced to rely on his/her knowledge and memory of their
beat and its inhabitants to do their job.

If the video scanning technology that checks body measurements against those
of known offenders becomes commonplace and reliable, how good will the next
generation of police be at remembering and recognizing faces?

If Cromatica works and becomes popular, how many security officers will set
the alarm and read / nap / play video games until the system says there's a
problem?

    <Old Coot Rant: Disable>

> Robotic security guards have
> been in development since the 70's and no one has yet
> to make one that is accurate and/or doesn't cost more
> than the police budget for a small city.

Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being tried
out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 22:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Mon Apr 22 21:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEDKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <B8EA36A9.3918%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

on 4/22/02 7:46 PM, Swordy at tml@downport.com wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>> 
>> No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
>> homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
>> sex isn't a sin.
> 
> You misstate the RR POV, which says there is no *being* in the equation.
> That would suggest something physical. They tend to deny causation outside
> of the fallen (sin) condition. You correctly stated the RCC position, which
> like the jewish view holds that only the act is condemnable.
> 
> ObTrav: at what LL do we see the appearance of the Thought Police? Can they
> exist at any LL, for 1 on up where the technology or psionic ability exists
> to determine intent before action? Or does there have to be a high LL before
> your thoughts become criminal?
> 

I would think it the measure is LL, not psionic ability or TL.  "1984"
describes a pretty low TL world, maybe 5-6?, an that book pretty much
defines 'thought police'.

Of course, this measures only what the official government of a world
enforces, not the society at large - so if society on planet Rubella
believes people who like blue are 'evil' or a threat of some type, and
therefore don't employ them, throw them out of their homes/schools, ban them
from normal family/societal functions to the point of actual physical danger
and at least economic hardship - the LL can still be rather low (even if the
Rubellan government actively attempts to help blue liking people by giving
them subsidies).

Doesn't LL not only cover what is illegal, but also how often you can expect
to be hassled and how much hassle you can expect once your character finds
him or herself talking to a cop?

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 02:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue Apr 23 01:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B84@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Tackett [mailto:haegen2001@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 22 April 2002 10:38
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
> 
> 
> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to
> > Comics.
> Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember
> what he did.

Co-wrote Original D&D with Gygax, His campaign world was Blackmoor,
Gygax's was Greyhawk

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 02:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 01:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
Message-ID: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C1EAAD.1F0222C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


A sample from Traveller's Aide #1 is now on the QuikLink site....

http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html

------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C1EAAD.1F0222C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A sample from Traveller's Aide #1 is =
now on the=20
QuikLink site....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html">http://www.traveller=
rpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C1EAAD.1F0222C0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Love the cover!
Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the pdf will be somewhat better.
I will be buying this.

Regards,

Andrei Nikulinsky

>
>A sample from Traveller's Aide #1 is now on the QuikLink site....
>
><http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html>http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <016901c1eaa7$8a03d6f0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> Love the cover!
> Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the pdf will be somewhat better.
> I will be buying this.
> 
> 

Heh.... we'll hold you to that, mind.....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV142mduL7Uu9Pyo250001b287@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIECFHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Just to clarify why I equated Arneson to Kirby and Gygax to
Shooter

Both Arneson and Kirby were the primary creative geniuses in
their work, and both lost control of their creative work due to
business practices, which while legal, were morally questionable.

Both Gygax and Shooter, while having produced some great work (in
Shooter's case the "Michael" sequence in "The Avengers" was
groundbreaking for mainstream superheroes) appear (in their
writing at least) to have huge egos, and  seem to very easly
alienate other creative people. They both also seem to have poor
business sense, while at the same time seeming to think they were
good at the money side of the business, though admittedly that is
my judgement basd on second-hand reports, so is not inherently
reliable.

I'd agree with Sam's equating of Gygax to Stan Lee as well, while
I think the Shooter comparison is more accurate in terms of
temperment and style, the original team pairing part is more
accurate in terms of contemporienity.

With regard to the old "D&D created the industry" chestnut,
despite Loren's statement, D&D was neither original nor was it a
neccessary catalyst for the industry.

If TSR had not had D&D, Professor Barker's "Empire of the Petal
Throne" would almost certainly still have been published by TSR a
short time later. What became Arduin and Runequest would still
have been developed at or around the same time. "Traveller" may
not have been, but then we would have had something else it's
place, perhaps from Steve Jackson ('Car Wars' was almost a
roleplaying game from it's inception) or from FGU.

In terms of originality, just about all of the basic concepts of
what would become "roleplaying" were discussed in H.G. Wells
"Little Wars". At the other end of the roleplaying spectrum, the
trend toward heroic free-form/improvisational theatre had already
peaked in the late sixties and was losing it's lustre, with one
or two notable exceptions.

GDW, Chaosium, WRG, TSR, Flying Buffalo, Steve Jackson, Steve
Curtis, and many other primarily wargaming companies were all in
the process of adding fantasy wargaming and roleplaying systems
of various forms to their wargames, largely due to the popularity
of "Lord of the Rings" at the time. These were based originally
on personalization details for their army "generals" and "special
figures", and also on the trend toward small scale "skirmish"
wargames where the individual figures were heavily personalized
and even given "character", of which "Chainmail" was just one,
and not the most influential either.

While I'm not going to deny D&D's importance, it was not, IMO,
neccessary for the development of roleplaying.
Someone would have filled the role, just as someone would have
become the equivalemt of Bill Gates and Microsoft if Bill & Co.
had not been around, as both were merely a culmination of trends
rather than sudden discontinuities.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:34:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:34:38 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKECFHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rachel Kronick wrote :
> On 22 Apr 2002, at 20:20, Timothy Little wrote:
>
> > Blame it on the government, not Frank.  They're the
> > ones making decisions whether to hand out money
> > based on the origin of your ancestors.  I'm not
> > sure whether he was being serious about the
> > "lesbian" benefit or not.

Actually I don't think there actually is a _specific_ lesbian
benefit in New Zealand, I was being flippant.

> The solo parent benefit certainly is fact.

Yes, as are the special benefits for Maori, though I don't
disagree with the intent of the solo parent benefit or some of
the benefits targetted at Maori, my beef is with the people who
consider it a career choice, and the government that takes so
much of my money.

> I have little or no problem with the government's
> decisions regarding  benefits;

While I, on the other hand have huge problems with the way these
benefits are awarded.

I consider that such things should be targetted based on need,
not on membership of some arbitrary racial or social grouping, as
_that_, IMO, is racism, sexism, or whatever.

> the problem was that Frank came very close
> to implicitly saying that being Maori or being
> lesbian was a bad thing.

If I thought being Maori or being lesbian were bad things in
themselves I would have no qualms about saying it in public or on
this list. I wouldn't just imply it.

> His derisive tone, not the government's decision,
> was what irked me.

I'd say you worry about the wrong things then, complaining about
a mere derisive tone rather than the actual racism and sexism the
derision was targetted at. But that's your karma, not mine.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 04:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 03:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/23/2002 at 5:05 PM ondy wrote:

>Love the cover!
>Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the pdf will be somewhat better.
>I will be buying this.

The jpgs don't do it justice really, so I just posted a 4-page PDF sample=
 also. Same pages, but you get a better look at the layout!

http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001s.pdf

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 04:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 03:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Law Level (was: RAH and Libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <20020423093810.4CB01279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020423093810.4CB01279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <j6cacu0relbk1aah5d6noe68aoaq6v0ncf@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:32:03 -0700, Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Doesn't LL not only cover what is illegal, but also how often you can expect
>to be hassled and how much hassle you can expect once your character finds
>him or herself talking to a cop?

There are varying interpretations; the Original Canon seemed to make LL
exclusively a measure of how legal it was to go around armed beyond the
teeth.  Not unreasonable, necessarily, given that the level of
sophistication of role-playing in those days was low by today's standards,
and hakkenslash was "SOP". (N.B. I view Traveller as having been one of the
games that started the movement away from that.)

On the rare occasions that I actually address the question of what LL
means, I do currently interpret it as being the 'overall police hasslement'
likelihood - but I also like to expand the LL into a ULP,  l DGP WBH -
after all, there's no requirement for consistency in all areas of the law
(e.g., LL in NYC for weapons possession is essentially 9+, but I'd estimate
the hasslement level as only about 3 for most people in most situations).
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 07:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 06:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RPGs
Message-ID: <95.1b594c7e.29f6ba34@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/23/2002 4:39:08 AM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>GDW, Chaosium, WRG, TSR, Flying Buffalo, Steve Jackson, Steve
>Curtis, and many other primarily wargaming companies were all in
>the process of adding fantasy wargaming and roleplaying systems
>of various forms to their wargames, largely due to the popularity
>of "Lord of the Rings" at the time. These were based originally
>on personalization details for their army "generals" and "special
>figures", and also on the trend toward small scale "skirmish"
>wargames where the individual figures were heavily personalized
>and even given "character", of which "Chainmail" was just one,
>and not the most influential either.

You've obviously done considerable research if you know of Steve Curtis -- 
few people do nowadays.

>While I'm not going to deny D&D's importance, it was not, IMO,
>neccessary for the development of roleplaying.

I'm not as certain of that as you are . . . let us agree to disagree.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 07:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 06:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <DAV43ywkGmY8TkomDt500003bb3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC60A07.12144.5F6853@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002 at 23:39, Texas Redshift wrote:

> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being tried
> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

Not off-hand, but that sounds like one of Harry Harrison's from _War 
with the Robots_.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:35:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:35:26 2002
Subject: [TML] GT-FT question: Governers vs Legates
Message-ID: <3CC57085.ACFD07EB@mail.cswnet.com>

Two quick questions:

Whats the difference between an Imperial Governor and an Imperial
Governor-General?

On worlds like Arba and Yorbund, where there is no government, who does
the Imperium send, a Legate or a Governor?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] living space
Message-ID: <F209X64kDn9cvKluevz000007df@hotmail.com>

From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net>

     "But the Traveller navies, like the wet navies of today require 
sophisticated technologically savvy crewmen. Not the kind of people that 
would want to live under conditions that exist on even today's ships (one 
reason the U.S. Navy has so much trouble keeping people.)"


Mr. Carlino,

     A very accurate supposition, sir.  Living conditions were one, of many, 
reasons I did not put twenty years in the USN.
     During the ship habitability thread of last year, I described ad 
nauseum the living arrangements aboard my last ship, USS California.  A 
brief recap will fit here.
     I lived with 41 other men in an area slightly smaller than a two car 
garage.  Our bunks were stacked three high.  Personal property stowage was 
limited to a locker underneath our beds; approx 6' by 2' and 10" deep, and a 
smaller gym-style locker.  My division was lucky, our office was one deck 
below our berthing area so we could watch TV, play cards, etc., down there 
and let others sleep.
     Our berthing area was a "hazardous noise area" when underway.  That 
meant that ear plugs or muffs were required.  Both propeller shafts ran 
underneath the space, #2 engineroom was forward, #2 diesel was aft along 
with #2 pump room.  My last year aboard, the space finally recieved noise 
dampening pads on the bulkheads which lessened the problem somewhat.
     The sanitary arrangements can be summed up in one phrase; our two 
commodes didn't have stalls around them until my last year aboard.

     "One of the easiest, and cheapest in the long run, method of keeping 
high quality people is to give them decent living conditions. It is common 
on merchant ships today for seamen to live in the kind of berthing used on 
Traveller ships. It is my contention that by the middle of this century U.S. 
Navy ships will have similar berthing, if only because that's they only way 
they will be able to compete for the high quality technical people they 
need."

     Either that or barracks ashore for ALL personnel.  The SSNs and SSBNs 
have always housed their crews ashore when the vessel is in port.  The rest 
of the Navy should do the same.  Putting up with cramped living conditions 
would be tolerable during deployments IF you knew you'd be returning to 
barracks back in port.  As it stands now, most naval personnel live in the 
factories where they work.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

ObTrav - I've always thought that 57th century SDBs are crewed in a manner 
similar to USN SSBNs; two crews per vessel.  This keeps the SDB on patrol 
longer without driving the crew mad.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:46:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:46:12 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <200204231444.g3NEieV03093@uranus.networkwcs.net>

[... snip long non-Traveller stuff ...]

So what I would like to know from those who seem to have discussions
with G. Gygax is this: What is it about +1 axes and why do they seem
to appear in every early D&D module? Why, oh God why?!? THE AXES, THE
AXES!!!

... ahem. Sorry. I'll go back into topor again.

ObTrav: Do the Imperial Marines use +1 axes in shipboard hand-to-hand
combat? Would a superdense axehead make a +1 axe? If Dulinor had
killed Strephon with a +1 axe, would the course of the Rebellion been
altered (oh wait, it was all a dream, wasn't it Bobby?). Would F.S.
industries be willing to buy secret plans for a +1 axe spinal mount
stolen from the planet Xayag?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

Who showed supreme restraint when he gave the last p*racy thread a pass.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:52:13 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <F209X64kDn9cvKluevz000007df@hotmail.com>
References: <F209X64kDn9cvKluevz000007df@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <02042316460813.03729@avlendris>

Hey Guys

After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video 
(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net seems 
utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was a 
Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters). 

Anyone have any clue?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIECFHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <DAV142mduL7Uu9Pyo250001b287@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020423094644.04ea2d60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_1470066==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 09:42 PM 4/23/02 +1200, you wrote:
>If TSR had not had D&D, Professor Barker's "Empire of the Petal
>Throne" would almost certainly still have been published by TSR a
>short time later.

Not necessarily true.  Prof. Barker was introduced to D&D role-playing by a 
player from Mr. Gygax's Greyhawk campaign, who had moved from Lake Geneva 
to Minneapolis to begin college.  The subsequent game was mildly influenced 
by D&D, and aside from the "Purple Book" (the play-test rules that became 
EPT), there's no clear set of "role-playing" rules for Tekumel.  To be 
sure, Prof. Barker has talked about the role-playing done in grad school, 
but it wasn't intended for publication.

Victor Raymond


Victor J. Raymond
Department of Sociology, ISU
vraymond@iastate.edu
--=====================_1470066==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 09:42 PM 4/23/02 +1200, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>If TSR had not had D&amp;D,
Professor Barker's &quot;Empire of the Petal<br>
Throne&quot; would almost certainly still have been published by TSR
a<br>
short time later. <br>
</blockquote><br>
Not necessarily true.&nbsp; Prof. Barker was introduced to D&amp;D
role-playing by a player from Mr. Gygax's Greyhawk campaign, who had
moved from Lake Geneva to Minneapolis to begin college.&nbsp; The
subsequent game was mildly influenced by D&amp;D, and aside from the
&quot;Purple Book&quot; (the play-test rules that became EPT), there's no
clear set of &quot;role-playing&quot; rules for Tekumel.&nbsp; To be
sure, Prof. Barker has talked about the role-playing done in grad school,
but it wasn't intended for publication.<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times">Victor J. Raymond<br>
Department of Sociology, ISU<br>
vraymond@iastate.edu</font></html>

--=====================_1470066==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 09:20:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 08:20:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>; from martinjd@globalnet.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:56:21AM +0100
References: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020423091936.A5708@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:56:21AM +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
> http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html

Looks attractive.  I wonder, though, if it might not have been
possible to put GURPS stats in as well.  Might have widened the market
some, and with a decent little prog shouldn't be too expensive.
Famous last words and all that, I know...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you want to travel around the world and be invited to speak at a lot
of different places, just write a Unix operating system.
                                       --Linus Torvalds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
>Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
...
>I'm not anti-taxes; they're a necessary evil.  But it's important to
>realise the very bad efects taxation has on an economy.  Ideally
>taxation (and therefore, the public sector) would be limited to a few
>percent of GDP, so as to minimise the deleterious economic effects
>thereof.

  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a substantial
public investment in infrastructure? It's called the Third World.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>






>After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video
>(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net
seems
>utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was
a
>Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters).

I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 (in fact
i try to pretend it never happened.)

I once ran a Galactica campaign. however i had no real dimensions on the
ship. so i started doing some guessing. First i found somewhere stated that
Battlestars carried 75 fighters broken down into 4 squadrons. i had
problems with this number. it worked out to 18 vipers per sqdrn and 3 left
over for... what? replacements to the squadrons? again nothing i could find
explained it.

anyway I also found out that she could launch all her vipers at once.
launching both Landing Bays(I always referred to the entire pod as the
Landing Bays even though only the aft end of the pod was used for ship
recovery). this comes up with the very convenient number of 37.5. so we are
launching half a viper out each bay every time we are under attack.

well i made a few changes upped the number of vipers to 80 giving each
sqdrn 20. and launching 40 in a broadside. to figure the length of the ship
i actually did two things. (Now remember this is from memory from like 1986
8P )

First i did have a set of dimensions for the viper. so i calculated the
width of the viper and launch bay at both 37.5 and 40. i had a set of plans
that where actually used to build the Mock fighter and the Launching pad
set. i think i still have that set of plans at home ill look tonight if i
do ill send you the dimensions i worked with.

Once this distance was figured. i tried to figure out how many gun
positions where spaced along the launch tub exits. the only way i could
figure this was by looking at the model i had built as a kid. Now granted i
know this is not the best thing you could do to figure it but i really had
no other choice. i took a best guess as to how wide i thought each gun
position was and added it to my viper width total.

i then estimated that this total number was 80% of the length of a landing
bay. so i tacked on 20% more to get a total landing bay. then once i had
this number i estimated the length percentage of the landing bay to the
ships over all length. so if i felt the landing bay was 45% of the ships
over all length i just tacked on double the landing bay plus 15% more to
get a total length over all.

to find width i did something similar.

when the vipers where on final to one of the landing bays you could see
other vipers sitting on their launch cradles. i did a an estimate of the
width of the landing bays based on the LOA of a Viper. once i had that
number i used my bays as a guide for a WOA for a Battlestar.

The number that comes to mind from back then is like 1750 meters to 1950
meters depending on 37.5 per broadside to 40 per broadside. She really is a
huge ship. i cant remember the WOA. ill look and see if i can find my notes
on dimensions for the Galactica and my plans that have the actual viper
dimensions

the biggest problem is that i don't think any real dimensions were ever
published for the Galactica so any dimensions are really a best guess.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231606.EVJ07561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

shudson@lightspeed.ca says
>
>  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
>modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a 
>substantial public investment in infrastructure? It's called 
>the Third World.
>

There's a balance to be struck there.  It's possible to spend 
too much, or make the definition of infrastructure too 
vague.  Also, it's a good thing for governments to invest in 
areas where venture capitalists fear to tread (rural electric 
power, the original Internet), but it's also good to know 
when those things should become private.

Not Exactly ObTrav: I firmly believe that instead of spending 
money on the Space Shuttle, the government should be spending 
on an initiative to get companies to build a low cost means 
to get into orbit.  Any idea that could work should be on the 
table.  Companies should get incentives for working in 
space.  We need to get off this rock and make money, instead 
of doing science in a tin can in orbit.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>; from shudson@lightspeed.ca on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 08:52:20AM -0700
References: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 08:52:20AM -0700, Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
>   Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
> modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a substantial
> public investment in infrastructure? It's called the Third World.

Of course I'm serious.  And the problem with those countries is not
`investment' (which is a misused word: investments yield returns), but
lack of ironclad property and contract law, among other things.  The
First World pours money into those places, and it does very little
good.

There are things for which it makes sense that they be state-run
(e.g. power & water distribution, roads &c.) but not state-subsidised
(i.e. you pay for what you burn/drink/whatever).  There are things for
which it makes sense that they be state-subsidised (e.g. the military
and process of government).

That does not mean that the public sector should be as large as it is.
And it certainly doesn't mean that we should not investigate ways to
either privatise _or_ run on the local level.

Good sigmonster...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A man who lives in a country ought to contribute his fair share to its
defense and maintenance.  Everything else is extortion.
                                       --Poul Anderson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:13:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:13:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020423091936.A5708@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>

In the broadest sense, they are competing products. And even though one of
them is based on an "open" gaming system, the other is not ;)

From Miracle Max's Recipe Book:

	To one fresh paper cut;
		add 1 tsp. lemon juice
		and 1/2 tsp. salt

	mash with your thumb until screaming stops

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Robert A. Uhl

> > http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html
>
> Looks attractive.  I wonder, though, if it might not have been
> possible to put GURPS stats in as well.  Might have widened the market
> some, and with a decent little prog shouldn't be too expensive.
> Famous last words and all that, I know...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:19:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:19:53 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
> Once this distance was figured. i tried to figure out how many gun
> positions where spaced along the launch tub exits. the only way i could
> figure this was by looking at the model i had built as a kid. Now

Model of what?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On 22 Apr 2002 at 7:41, Paul Walker wrote:
> > Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is
> 10,000Cr. 
> > If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away
> 10,000
> > of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick. 
> In
> > my mind, this situation would produce three types
> of
> > people:
> 
> You're assuming that 50% of the population does no
> work, here.

Well, given Human nature, I would expect fewer than
50% to work.  If you can live decently without any
attempt to work, why would you work?  The entire
discussion originated around the negative tax, and the
explanation given has the government setting the
"poverty" level.

More than assuming 50% doesn't work, I assume that the
government will set the "poverty" level near the
median income.  Why?  It is good for reelection.  Now
before anyone jumps on my case, I recognize that this
is one of the major assumptions that will flaw my
arguement, but, frankly, I don't trust the government
to make the right decision.

The welfare system should exist for two reasons,
helping those who can't work to survive, and
encouraging those who can work to do so. 
Unfortunately, that is not what government officials
use it for.  They use it as a kick-back for votes. (I
do confess to a US-centric view of politics, but I
would imagine it is similar.)

The negative tax system as presented rewards people
for not working.  If you can work and you choose not
to, you should not get any reward.
  
> > 1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
> >      These people continue to earn as much as they
> > can, either (a) hoping that maybe the government
> will
> > not need all of it to pay for those not at poverty
> > level and that they will get to keep the extra
> > (doubtful) or (b) working because they are not
> > concerned with the money aspect of the work, but
> are
> > motivated by something else entirely.
> 
> Why is it doubtful?
> 

Because the government will be likely to take more
than they need.  Someone will present the idea that we
can't lower the poverty level but we may not get
enough taxes to pay next year, so we better take a
little extra to ensure that we can pay the poverty
level in the future.  Not to mention that we need to
take in more taxes for our pork barrel.  

I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
retiring tomorrow.  While I don't know where all the
money went, I know that much went to pork barrel, and
some went to folks who never paid that much in.

Maybe I'm not making sense.  Suffice it to say, that I
don't trust the government to make the right
decisions, and the negative tax seems to put much
trust in the government to make the right decisions.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:25:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:25:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231606.EVJ07561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:06:01PM -0400
References: <200204231606.EVJ07561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423101904.C5708@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:06:01PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> Not Exactly ObTrav: I firmly believe that instead of spending 
> money on the Space Shuttle, the government should be spending 
> on an initiative to get companies to build a low cost means 
> to get into orbit.

_Allowing_ companies to build and enter orbit would be a good start.

Part of the problem is that the technology to get men to the moon is
precisely the technology to get nukes to Naples.  Modern nation states
like it when a) only states posess power and b) as few states as
possible do so.

Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
but it's an interesting way to look at it.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say
to its subjects, `This you may not read, this you must not see, this
you are forbidden to know,' the end result is tyranny and oppression,
no matter how holy the motives.  Mighty little force is needed to
control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount
of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the
rack, not fission bombs, not anything.  You can't conquer a free man;
the most you can do is kill him.               --Robert A.  Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020423162545.82697.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> That would *only* be true if the median income was
> at the poverty 
> line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.

You are correct.  I think the pressure would be on the
government from those below median income to put the
"poverty" level as close to median as possible.

As those two numbers get closer, the quantity of
people who try to make more than will be taken is
reduced.  (I may be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of
work for 6,000Cr, but when the numbers get closer,
will I be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of work for
3,000Cr?)

The cycle continues until there are too few workers to
support the system.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162545.82697.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019580147.4086.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> --- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > That would *only* be true if the median income was
> > at the poverty 
> > line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.
> 
> You are correct.  I think the pressure would be on the
> government from those below median income to put the
> "poverty" level as close to median as possible.

Sure, and for those above the median income to put the 'poverty' level as low
as possible.  Seriously, the political pressures on tax levels with negative
income are not substantially different from those associated with general
welfare today, and it's very rare for welfare to allow someone to live at
median income.

Of course, if by 'poverty line', you mean the point at which your net tax rate
is zero, that may be at a fairly high percentile, but simply sitting without
working only gets you around 1/5 of that much money.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162545.82697.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Paul Walker wrote:

> --- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > That would *only* be true if the median income was
> > at the poverty 
> > line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.
> 
> You are correct.  I think the pressure would be on the
> government from those below median income to put the
> "poverty" level as close to median as possible.
> 
> As those two numbers get closer, the quantity of
> people who try to make more than will be taken is
> reduced.  (I may be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of
> work for 6,000Cr, but when the numbers get closer,
> will I be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of work for
> 3,000Cr?)

This kind of economic system will ONLY work if no one has a "shit job".

If I had my druthers I would spend every day writing.  I might or might
not make any money on it, but that's what I'd do.  I do not work as a
physicians' administrative assistant for the sheer pleasure of it.  It's
annoying and boring much of the time, even though I believe in what we are
doing here.

Economic systems such as the one in ST:TNG work the way they do because of
labor replacement.  Replicators and robotics and "holograms" (that aren't
holograms) ensure that human beings don't have to flip burgers, type other
people's correspondence, etc.  I don't know who does the plumbing.  There
are a lot of jobs that pay well because they are boring, dangerous, or
stressful that people will simply not do unless they either love the work
so much they don't care, or are paid a lot more than other folks, so it is
worth it to them, and not taxed down to the median.

Writers, artists, and scientists love to posit such economic systems,
because they love what they do and will do it whether or not they get paid
a lot.  The fact remains, however, that construction work, plumbing, oil
rigging, upper level administration, and a lot of other very important
jobs that bring in fat paychecks get done because people want the fat
paychecks, not because people's souls thrill at the thought of mucking out
your sewer pipes or sitting through another meeting about the
Tleilaxu-Seldon grant budget.  I would never sit through another meeting
if I didn't have to.  I don't believe that the people who are going to
come over next Friday and fix my telephone lines are in it for the fun of
it all, either.

That is why I don't see this as a valid social plan.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93!  Thou Art God tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:53:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:53:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> > Looks attractive.  I wonder, though, if it might not have been
> > possible to put GURPS stats in as well.  Might have widened the market
> > some, and with a decent little prog shouldn't be too expensive.
> > Famous last words and all that, I know...


We don't have a license to do GURPS products. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFC0ADB44D.1ECBB5A6-ON85256BA4.005A572C@pheaa.org>





>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
>> Once this distance was figured. i tried to figure out how many gun
>> positions where spaced along the launch tub exits. the only way i could
>> figure this was by looking at the model i had built as a kid. Now

>Model of what?

Of the Galactica. put out by Revell or Monogram i think. had decals to make
it either the Galactica or the Pegasus. i made mine the Pegasus. I also had
several Vipers. in fact i built one on a launch cradle with a scratch built
Interior. It was not very good but i loved it 8)

the launch bays where clear along the Port and starboard side. spaced among
them (twice i think) was this flat area of hull where they gun emplacements
where suppose to be. On the model they did get the Forward Angle on the
Launch bays correct. the fighters did not launch strait out they launched
at a forward angle from the ship.

On a side note the number of launch tubs on this model where off as well. i
think it had like 24 or 25 launch tubes per broadside. but this model was
not what i would call a real scale model of the ship. it had a number of
serious Inconsistencies compared to the one you saw every week on the show.

For Example there is a "Tube" type stricture running from the port landing
bay to starboard landing bay underneath the Galactica's main hull. my
Assumption in my game was that this "tube" allowed for viper/shuttle
storage and maintenance. it also allowed for the moving of ships from on
bay to another depending on the situation. IE say in battle Alpha bay was
damaged in such a way that no viper recoveries could be made but the
forward launch facilities where still operable. you could recover vipers in
beta bay and move them to alphas launch tubes.

on the model this structure is not a "tube" but a portion of the main ships
hull. in fact the mid Bay Pylon is also molded into this structure when it
should not be. so if you use the model as a guide the Mid Pylon is actually
part of this huge under hull mass. However if you watch the show there are
some nice starboard side flanking shots of the Galactica as she moves away
from you. in these shots you can see the Mid Pylon is its own separate
structure. it also comes down at a different angle than the Fore and Aft
Pylons.

I am no engineer but my "feeling" is that the mid Pylon serves as some sort
of load bearing or structural reenforcement member for the entire
structure.

Gads I'm talking to much. on a side note the released those models again
recently i wanted to buy them so i could build a second Battlestar to go
with my "Pegasus". 8)i still have my original Battlestar hanging from the
ceiling in my Office at the house 8P

Bill


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231704.EVL07840@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Kiri Aradia Morgan says
>
>Economic systems such as the one in ST:TNG work the way they 
>do because of labor replacement.  Replicators and robotics 
>and "holograms" (that aren't holograms) ensure that human 
>beings don't have to flip burgers, type other people's 
>correspondence, etc.  I don't know who does the plumbing.  

That's what I liked about Babylon 5.  There were not only 
people who cleaned the plumbing, there were jobless, 
desperate people as well.  I find that any other 
representation of human society is unreal in the extreme.

The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST 
series is that everyone is an officer.

ObTrav: IMTU the advent of new technology hasn't liberated 
too many of the working poor - in fact, in some cases, it's 
just made them the non-working poor.  There's a great 
Stanislaw Lem story along those lines...
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
References: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <02042318594616.03729@avlendris>

On Tuesday 23 April 2002 17:04, you wrote:
> >After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video
> >(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net
>
> seems
>
> >utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was
>
> a
>
> >Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters).
>
> I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 (in fact
> i try to pretend it never happened.)
 

I think we all did that ;->

I don't know if I have the heart to tell you.. you seemed to have put in a 
lot of work... but the vipers launch tubes come out along the "jaw line" of 
the Galactica, along the bottom edge of the "head" part. Also, if you watch 
the vipers emerge, more than one emerge at a time. What I always wondered 
was.... why Didn't they launch them from the "pods", why did they go to the 
trouble of moving them up to the "head"?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:12:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisc
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEIKCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: wlewis@mailbag.com
>
>My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete
the
>process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be spending the
evening
>of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San Francisco. If there are
any
>fellow Travellers who would care to get to gether with me that evening for
beer
>and/or conversation, please let me know.

When does your flight arrive, and when would you like to meet?  The San
Francisco Airport Holiday Inn is not in San Francisco, nor is it actually
very close to the airport, if I'm thinking of the right hotel -- but that
won't stop us from meeting someone who is really travelling.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <OFC0ADB44D.1ECBB5A6-ON85256BA4.005A572C@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEEEDMAA.tml@downport.com>

No scale, eh? Too bad. That might have been your answer right there :(

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
>
> >Model of what?
>
> Of the Galactica. put out by Revell or Monogram i think. had
[snip]
> but this model was
> not what i would call a real scale model of the ship. it had a number of
> serious Inconsistencies compared to the one you saw every week on
> the show.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:23:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:23:09 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFDA0A27EA.2AAADE7D-ON85256BA4.005EE7AF@pheaa.org>







>I don't know if I have the heart to tell you.. you seemed to have put in a

>lot of work... but the vipers launch tubes come out along the "jaw line"
of
>the Galactica, along the bottom edge of the "head" part. Also, if you
watch
>the vipers emerge, more than one emerge at a time. What I always wondered
>was.... why Didn't they launch them from the "pods", why did they go to
the
>trouble of moving them up to the "head"?

No they don't launch from the head. if you look at the movies during the
launch sequence they once and a while show an over the ship shot. you see
the vipers emerging from the forward part of the Pod. in fact i believe the
shot shows part of the forward portion of the pod where it slops back down
to a point.

Also if you look closely when the viper is on Approach to the landing bay
you will see all these vipers sitting in their launch cradles.

I had someone try to tell me this before but i went back and watched my
videos and confirmed the things i have said.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>; from traveller_tv@yahoo.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:20:37AM -0700
References: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost> <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020423113808.B6061@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:20:37AM -0700, Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
> great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
> money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
> putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
> retiring tomorrow.

It's a Ponzi scheme, pure and simple.

What we really need is for FICA to go into an 401(k) which is paid out
to one after some age, and is inheritable.  I don't mind enforced
savings for the future.  What I mind is being forced into a pyramid
scheme which we _cannot win_.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A Democracy: Three wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.
A Republic: The flock gets to vote for which wolves vote on dinner.
A Constitutional Republic: Voting on dinner is expressly forbidden, and
  the sheep are armed.
          --Anonymous

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:46:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:46:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>; from martinjd@globalnet.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:50:22PM +0100
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com> <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:50:22PM +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> We don't have a license to do GURPS products. 

You don't need one, any more than East Taiwan Metal & Plastic needs a
license to manufacture a Ford compatible gas cap.  As long as no
patent, trademark or copyright is infringed, one can do anything.  I
believe that interoperability is still protected, even in the
(horrendous) DMCA.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Earth is degenerating these days.  Bribery and corruption abound.
Children no longer mind their parents, every man wants to write a book,
and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching.
                           --Assyrian stone tablet, c. 2800 B.C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <200204231755.g3NHtrJ15709@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> 
>Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:46:08 +0100
>Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
...
>After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video 
>(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net seems 
>utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was a 
>Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters). 

  Well, the box for the Revell-Monogram kit says 45 cm :)  The fluff
text in the instructions says 2000' long, which isn't much better. 

  ISTR that there's a fairly serious treatment of this (based on 
one of the scale models from the series?) at:  www.chrispappas.com
IAC, there _must_ be a Galactica web-ring.

  In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the 
openings on the launch/landing bays.

  And on said Revell-Monogram model (85-3618) those openings are
no more than 4mm on a 400+mm ship. So 800m length looks to be a
minimum; given the proportions, perhaps around 500,000 Dt?

  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:18:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:18:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231803.g3NI3xJ17762@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
...
>>  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
>>modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a 
>>substantial public investment in infrastructure? It's called 
>>the Third World.
>
>There's a balance to be struck there.  It's possible to spend 
>too much, or make the definition of infrastructure too vague.  

  Heck, yes - bureaucracies (whether corporate or government)
are fully able to make horrid investment decisions. As can
individuals, of course :(

...Also, it's a good thing for governments to invest in 
>areas where venture capitalists fear to tread (rural electric 
>power, the original Internet), but it's also good to know 
>when those things should become private.

  Agree, broadly, although I think there's much merit in the
arguments for maintaining public ownership of some "natural
monopoly" items of infrastructure.

  ObTrav: the IN is _the_ crucial piece of the 3I's public 
infrastructure; the Throne maintains an effective monopoly
on its own ownership. Right?

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231803.g3NI3xJ17762@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019586447.9084.ajackson@ping>

Steven Hudson writes:

>   ObTrav: the IN is _the_ crucial piece of the 3I's public 
> infrastructure; the Throne maintains an effective monopoly
> on its own ownership. Right?

Well, by definition the IN is only controlled by the Imperium.  However, the
Throne does not have an effective monopoly on interstellar naval forces.

However, the other public infrastructure controlled by the throne is just as
crucial (though, once again, not a monopoly).  That's starports.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:35:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:35:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
Message-ID: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was revisiting the idea of the solo adventure as mentioned 
a while back.  And then I was surfing someone's blog today, 
and it had a parody of an Ayn Rand story (she is rather 
formulaic).  And that reminded me of a gizmo I got from an 
old copy of Spy Magazine that helps you become a fashionable 
writer in New York, writing in the style, of say, Bret Easton 
Ellis.

It's a thing with a sliding card, and you make your 
selections and then read your story.  

It would be great if someone could write a plot 
generator/navigator that used CT rules and ran on a Palm.  I 
don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play 
backgammon on the Metro.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:39:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:39:18 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <200204231834.g3NIYtJ26544@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

...
>  In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
>a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the 
>openings on the launch/landing bays.

  FWIW, there are photos of a scale model of a Galactica Shuttle at:
        http://www.EdMiarecki.com/Formatting/re06.html

  ISTR from the show that those windows aren't small, so that may be
in the 200 Dt range for Trav - guestimates, anyone?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:27:25PM -0400
References: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423124144.B6115@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:27:25PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> I don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
> backgammon on the Metro.

Ah, but there's also solitaire.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
'Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US
 companies like Microsoft.'                         --some AOLer
'To this end we dedicate ourselves...'                     --Don

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:46:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jim Catchpole)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:46:48 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
References: <200204231755.g3NHtrJ15709@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <008801c1eaf6$93b2af60$7b000150@jimcatchpole>

----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.ca>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 23 April 2002 18:54
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?


> >From: Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie>
> >Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:46:08 +0100
> >Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?

>   In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
> a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the
> openings on the launch/landing bays.
>
>   And on said Revell-Monogram model (85-3618) those openings are
> no more than 4mm on a 400+mm ship. So 800m length looks to be a
> minimum; given the proportions, perhaps around 500,000 Dt?
>

Well,  from memory,  the book of the film said 'over a mile long'. It also
claimed the ship was over 200 years old.

I don't know if you could consider that reliable though (my memory or the
book) ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:56:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:56:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
>> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being
tried
>> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
>> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
>> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?
>
>Not off-hand, but that sounds like one of Harry Harrison's from _War
>with the Robots_.

Isaac Asimov, The Caves of Steel, circa 1952.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:59:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:59:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFBB88BA8A.57A354AF-ON85256BA4.00674941@pheaa.org>





...
>  In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
>a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the
>openings on the launch/landing bays.

  FWIW, there are photos of a scale model of a Galactica Shuttle at:
        http://www.EdMiarecki.com/Formatting/re06.html

 If pop up a level on the website he has the Galactica model there. if you
look closely to the pod in some of those pictures you can see the launch
tubes running down the sides of the bay. intermittently you see spots where
gun emplacements are nested in-between launch tubes.

great site.

Bill



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:01:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:01:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <20020423124144.B6115@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231147070.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:27:25PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >
> > I don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
> > backgammon on the Metro.
> 
> Ah, but there's also solitaire.
> 
Where on earth is it that people pay $400 USD for a palm pilot?  I don't
have one, but I have never heard of anyone paying that much for one.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423153922.00b8bec0@urbin.net>

At 02:27 PM 4/23/02 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>I was revisiting the idea of the solo adventure as mentioned
>a while back.  And then I was surfing someone's blog today,
>and it had a parody of an Ayn Rand story (she is rather
>formulaic).  And that reminded me of a gizmo I got from an
>old copy of Spy Magazine that helps you become a fashionable
>writer in New York, writing in the style, of say, Bret Easton
>Ellis.
>
>It's a thing with a sliding card, and you make your
>selections and then read your story.
>
>It would be great if someone could write a plot
>generator/navigator that used CT rules and ran on a Palm.  I
>don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
>backgammon on the Metro.

You should have gone for the i705.  I keep up with my various Traveller 
PBEM games using my Palm.
You may not get the coverage in the Metro, but for cases like that, I 
download the mail first.
Then I read it, delete & reply.  When I get signal again, I toggle the 
outbox to be sent and empty the trash.

I'm also using Documents to Go store character data.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC5B895.7010800@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>>
>>>Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being
>>
> tried
> 
>>>out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
>>>letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
>>>predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

Wan't that called 'Brillo' ?


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:54:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:54:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip about robot policeman stories>

My favorite robot policeman is ED-209.  I have the feeling 
that if they do introduce robot policemen, they will be 
far "dumber" than the ones in the science fiction story 
you're talking about.

Me, I'm waiting for the autonomous infantryman.  Of course, 
you can get a real infantryman pretty cheap, so prices will 
have to come down.  

Of course, you can't beat an autonomous robot infantryman for 
sheer terror.  It's probably a bit harder to kill than a real 
infantryman, and it's probably a much better shot. And if you 
manage to kill it, all you've done is trash some electronic 
parts.  Not very satisfying.  And you probably can't capture 
one - even if you caught one in a net, it's probably too 
dangerous.

I think that the first versions should be some sort of spider-
legged robot along the lines of some of Rodney Brooks' 
creations.  They should hide in the daytime and come out at 
night.  They should be airdropped into the rear, and they 
should be used to spy on things.  Also, if discovered, they 
should shoot every warm body they see.  Maybe even give them 
a blade or two to become an intelligent lawnmower.

The psychological implications are great.  Now, who wants to 
go on patrol tonight, knowing that if you find one of these 
things, it's going to make meat by-product out of most of 
your patrol?

I think a gadget like this is already "do-able"
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:57:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:57:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
Message-ID: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>

For anyone that might know the answer:

While working on my Mire landgrab, I have come up with a question that I hope someone on the TML might know an answer for.  (Preferably a correct one.  :-) )

What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain in order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?  The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.  Can that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without affecting Mire's orbit?

Thanks.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 14:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 13:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
Message-ID: <200204232004.EVR06043@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Mike West" asks
>
>What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must 
>maintain in order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?  
>The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny 
>sun at a distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is 
>assigned to .4 AU.  Can that second planet orbit closer 
>than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without affecting Mire's orbit?
>

I would think that would depend on the mass of the planets 
involved.  Earth is at 1 AU, so Venus and Mercury have to be 
at fractions of an AU.  They both seem to have nearly 
circular orbits, so they don't seem to be affecting each 
other in a major way.

________________
Employees smoking
Off company property
I'm doing their work

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 14:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 13:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


>> We don't have a license to do GURPS products. 
>
>You don't need one, any more than East Taiwan Metal & Plastic needs a
>license to manufacture a Ford compatible gas cap.  As long as no
>patent, trademark or copyright is infringed, one can do anything.  I
>believe that interoperability is still protected, even in the
>(horrendous) DMCA.

Whether legal or not (HIGHLY debatable) more than one lawsuit has happened=
 over just such activity. While the suit may or may not end up thrown out=
 in the long run, personally I don't have the time, resources, or desire to=
 deal with the possibility. Without an OK from SJG on the issue it ain't=
 gonna happen (and yes we have approached SJG about this already).

Hunter




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 14:28:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 13:28:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423165305.2B007279D2@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E1706qU-0005s2-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> shudson@lightspeed.ca says
> >
> >  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
> >modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a 
> >substantial public investment in infrastructure? It's called 
> >the Third World.
> >
> 
> There's a balance to be struck there.  It's possible to spend 
> too much, or make the definition of infrastructure too 
> vague.  Also, it's a good thing for governments to invest in 
> areas where venture capitalists fear to tread (rural electric 
> power, the original Internet), but it's also good to know 
> when those things should become private.
> 
> Not Exactly ObTrav: I firmly believe that instead of spending 
> money on the Space Shuttle, the government should be spending 
> on an initiative to get companies to build a low cost means 
> to get into orbit.  Any idea that could work should be on the 
> table.  Companies should get incentives for working in 
> space.  We need to get off this rock and make money, instead 
> of doing science in a tin can in orbit.

This would only work if there were viable companies that actually 
had some desire to do any form of space industry.  This is not true. 
Space is regarded (rightly) as pretty risky and (IMHO wrongly) as 
pie-in-the-sky by pretty much any large corporation you can name.  
The L-5 folks tried to get various companies interested in solar 
power sats in the 70s and early 80s and we all see where *that* 
went.

IMHO, until both the costs and the the risks are reduced *and* the 
government gives serious inventives, we will see no private space 
industry.  I'm also guessing that costs and risks will only be 
significantly reduced when NASA (or some other national space 
agency) builds a nice large space station that various companies 
can simply more their operations into.

Sadly, the only private individuals who are working hard to get into 
space are pretty darn fringe (like the nut out in Eastern Oregon who 
is building his own personal suborbital rocket) and none of them 
have enough money to make a descent show of it.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 15:06:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 14:06:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
In-Reply-To: <3CC3930A.D2B8F94D@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20423.134050.0q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Richard Wilson writes:
>>So this is the reason that starports are on the planet's surface and 
>>highports aren't as common.
>
> http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%7B1F54AEED-A34B-41
> 1B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D
>
> JOY! Hydrogen wells! JOY! That will make the Downports in systems
> without gas giants or other significant surface water so much easier to
> deal with. I can see it now...

Thing is, worlds without significant surface water may not have much
subsurface hydrogen. After all, it's the water that the bacteria *make*
the hydrogen from.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 15:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 14:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>; from trav@RPGRealms.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:24:51PM -0400
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com> <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net> <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <20020423153918.A6692@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:24:51PM -0400, Hunter Gordon wrote:
> 
> While the suit may or may not end up thrown out in the long run,
> personally I don't have the time, resources, or desire to deal with
> the possibility.

This makes me sad--that someone cannot do something which is perfectly
alright for fear of having to defend its rightness.

Of course, Mr. Miller could always state in his license terms that
Traveller licensees can only be compatible with him and themselves,
not with one another.  _That_ would be quite proper, although I'm not
certain why he'd do it.  Perhaps to ensure a market for his own books,
or something.

Incidentally, can anyone tell me if GT or T20 is required to be
compatible with Miller's future work?  By which I mean will the
licensees be required to print conversions, or is Miller explicitly
allowed to print his own?  Just curious.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
  Anulos qui animum ostendunt omnes gestemus!
  Let's all wear mood rings!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 23 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
References: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <20020424075041.A7785@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mike West wrote:
> What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain
> in order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?

That depends very much on the planets.  Their orbits could actually
overlap in distance, like those of Pluto and Neptune.  Such an
arrangement can be quite stable, because each planet keeps the other
one in position with resonance effects.  In such a case, one planet
has an orbital period that is (on average) an exact ratio of the
other, e.g. 3:2.

It's probably not even too uncommon an arrangement: despite our
current inability to detect any but the largest planets about other
stars, we have already found one system with two planets having orbits
that are not very far apart.


>  The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a
> distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.
> Can that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU)
> without affecting Mire's orbit?

Well, not without *affecting* the other's orbit, since every planet
affects every other in some small way.  Without disrupting the other,
certainly.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:06:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:06:08 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <3CC499EA.1020901@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20423.140845.6w2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> D&D may not have been pure in a mechanical sense, but like BASIC, and 
> 'You have SPAM!' it is now the de-facto standard of comparison..the 
> reason it got there is because it was 'the fustest with the mostest'.
>
> (says an old-timer who remembers back when 'September on the Net' 
> actually meant that it was, indeed, September...ahh those halcyon 
> pre-AOL, pre-Prodigy, pre-Compuserv days...)

Actually, I was on the Net before Compuserve had access to it. And on
Compuserve as well. They weren't all that bad. The sysopsa on the
Forums mostly kept folks in line. 

AOL on the other hand...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:14:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:14:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020423153918.A6692@4dv.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>
 <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <20020423153918.A6692@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <200204231817330495.D3087258@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>> While the suit may or may not end up thrown out in the long run,
>> personally I don't have the time, resources, or desire to deal with
>> the possibility.
>
>This makes me sad--that someone cannot do something which is perfectly
>alright for fear of having to defend its rightness.

Yes but unfortunately in today's environment, it is all too likely to=
 occur. Good IP attorneys are ungodly expensive, a realization I have=
 already had to deal with more than once since I entered this business.

>Of course, Mr. Miller could always state in his license terms that
>Traveller licensees can only be compatible with him and themselves,
>not with one another.  _That_ would be quite proper, although I'm not
>certain why he'd do it.  Perhaps to ensure a market for his own books,
>or something.

That is something I doubt Marc would ever considered.

>Incidentally, can anyone tell me if GT or T20 is required to be
>compatible with Miller's future work?  By which I mean will the
>licensees be required to print conversions, or is Miller explicitly
>allowed to print his own?  Just curious.

I can't speak for GT, but I assume they have a license similar to our own=
 in which we are not required to be compatible with future work by Marc.=
 Then again it would not need to be required in our case as I would happily=
 add stats to support any new material by Marc if he wished us to do so. It=
 was my choice to include CT stats (with Marc's ok) and material in our=
 products, not something required by my license. I just wanted to also=
 support CT and the reprints. 






From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:33:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:33:29 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <00cf01c1eb16$c0dab0d0$a3e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Okay, I asked this before but all my mail is gone in the great HD =
explosion.

I need a cover for the Diaspora Phoenix novel; there's not money =
available. We have a mockup of the cover but the actual pic needs to be =
done. Anyone care to help out?


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses

------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C1EB1F.0FF78DC0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
References: <3CC55510.8412.A77E03@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC5E36E.801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Well the importance of even centurions in much of that strife argues 
> for them being considered officers - very few coups in the modern world 
> are started and managed by sergeants.

Au contraire. A number of coups in Africa have been started by Non-coms. 
IIRC one of the Liberian coup leaders started as a Master Sergeant, 
wasn't he? Robert someting or another...

Also, I believe it was a number of Non-coms who started one of the coups 
against Noriega in Panama, just before the US invasion.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:47:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:47:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423165307.DA28C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020423153147.00a543e0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:19:04 -0600, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

>Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
>nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
>but it's an interesting way to look at it.

Well, that follows naturally from the idea that every adult should own and 
carry a gun.

Unfortunately, this kind of situation (at either scale) seems to require 
people who aren't stupid.  While the increased selection pressures may or 
may not eventually produce such a population, I don't think I'd like to 
experience the weeding-out process, any more than I'd like to live in his 
Coventry.  I /like/ civilization, thank you very much.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <02042316460813.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <001001c1eb19$a772e880$0f01a8c0@terry>

> After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on
video
> (hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net
> seems
> utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found
was
> a
> Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters).
> 
> Anyone have any clue?

It seems there is some discussion on the matter. Check out this link.

http://ravensbranch.tripod.com/galacticasize.html

Regards,

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020423153147.00a543e0@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231558080.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Kelly St.Clair wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:19:04 -0600, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> 
> >Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
> >nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
> >but it's an interesting way to look at it.
> 
> Well, that follows naturally from the idea that every adult should own and 
> carry a gun.
> 
Yes, but...

Guns can kill one person.  A firefight, even a large one, is over when
it's over, although some gunshot wounds don't kill immediately.

Nukes don't work that way.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:12:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020423153147.00a543e0@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <20020423165307.DA28C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423190649.00cb5d28@192.168.0.1>

At 03:40 PM 4/23/2002 -0700, Kelly St.Clair wrote:
>On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:19:04 -0600, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>>Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
>>nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
>>but it's an interesting way to look at it.
>Well, that follows naturally from the idea that every adult should own and 
>carry a gun.
>Unfortunately, this kind of situation (at either scale) seems to require 
>people who aren't stupid.  While the increased selection pressures may or 
>may not eventually produce such a population, I don't think I'd like to 
>experience the weeding-out process, any more than I'd like to live in his 
>Coventry.  I /like/ civilization, thank you very much.

I just finished reading Coventry.  Coventry was his "your right to swing 
your fist ends at someone else's nose" system.
That was America after the Second Revolution, that was civilization.
If you rejected Coventry or were denied Coventry, you were sent to the 
walled off section where the strong ruled the weak.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17A35@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

The emphatically polite Larsen:
Either that or barracks ashore for ALL personnel.  The SSNs and SSBNs have
always housed their crews ashore when the vessel is in port.  The rest of
the Navy should do the same.  Putting up with cramped living conditions
would be tolerable during deployments IF you knew you'd be returning to
barracks back in port.  As it stands now, most naval personnel live in the
factories where they work.

Mikey:
Australian DOD has always had onshore quarters for Naval personnel, or
provided rent subsidies and the like to live in town (where appropriate).
That's weird the US DOD does not...

Oh my god. 

That means Australia is more advanced than the US in Naval Living Conditions

Permission to shout bravo at an annoyingly loud volume!

PS I had a tour of our Freemantle class Patrol Boats. Apparently the washing
machines, which were designed to use sea water, never really worked so a
crewman gets saddled with laundromat duty when they pull into port, which is
only once every 6-8 weeks, and has to wash almost all the clothing of the
ship's company. They all wear these overall things and often for many days
at a time. As a civilian I often find it hard to comprehend the privations
these people have to deal with which is why it is easy for me to call them
sir or ma'am - cause they sure as hell have earned it. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <02042318594616.03729@avlendris>
References: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
 <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020423183217.00ac19d8@mail.earthlink.net>

At 06:59 PM 4/23/2002 +0100, Brian Caball wrote:
>On Tuesday 23 April 2002 17:04, William Lane wrote:
> > I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 (in fact
> > i try to pretend it never happened.)
>
>
>I think we all did that ;->

IMHO, there was precisely 1 good episode of Galactica 1980, "The Return of 
Starbuck".

Of course, IIRC it was actually an unfilmed Battlestar episode

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:41:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:41:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net>
References: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca> <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

>There are things for which it makes sense that they be state-run
>(e.g. power & water distribution, roads &c.) but not state-subsidised
>(i.e. you pay for what you burn/drink/whatever).=20

Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
bathing and sanitation...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:59:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:59:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231653550.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Stephen Tempest wrote:

> "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:
> 
> >There are things for which it makes sense that they be state-run
> >(e.g. power & water distribution, roads &c.) but not state-subsidised
> >(i.e. you pay for what you burn/drink/whatever). 
> 
> Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> bathing and sanitation...

You can lead a man to water, but can you make him bathe?

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:03:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:03:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>; from tml@stempest.demon.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000
References: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca> <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net> <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020423175758.A7026@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> 
> Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> bathing and sanitation...

That means you want the rest of the state to fund your desire to live
where it's expensive (those subsidies have to come from somewhere).
That's hardly a good thing.

Better to let living in the overcrowded city become as expensive as it
is, and then watch as people leave, thereby easing crowding.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Cloning forces us to ask some hard questions.  For example,
which person, the original or the clone, gets to wear the
goatee and be evil?                    --Stewart Nicholls

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:15:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:15:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423175758.A7026@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>

Robert A. Uhl writes:
> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > 
> > Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> > would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> > bathing and sanitation...
> 
> That means you want the rest of the state to fund your desire to live
> where it's expensive (those subsidies have to come from somewhere).

Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
being paid for by the occupants of the city.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:29:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:29:41 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8eb83b1f99b@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:49 AM -0700 4/23/02, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>This kind of economic system will ONLY work if no one has a "shit job".
>
>If I had my druthers I would spend every day writing.  I might or might
>not make any money on it, but that's what I'd do.  I do not work as a
>physicians' administrative assistant for the sheer pleasure of it.  It's
>annoying and boring much of the time, even though I believe in what we are
>doing here.

This is correct.

A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more people living on 
public assistance.  (It may not be 50%, but it will depend on what 
the level is set at).

What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a 
fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who 
think they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to 
complain that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and 
agitate for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact 
that lead to such a system in the first place, since the rationale 
that supports it can be easily used to support increases, and whether 
society wants to try and "buy" them off).

There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family 
(?).  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those 
who went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this 
is the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of 
"non-working" class in Europe....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <02042316460813.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020424002902.17680.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> wrote:
> Hey Guys
> 
> After a friend got the entirety of season 1
> Battlestar Galactica on video 
> (hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of
> the ship. The 'net seems 
> utterly void of technical specs or what have you:
> the best i've found was a 
> Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters). 
> 
> Anyone have any clue?
> 
> -Brian
> 
> 
  >>
  FOR SHAME!!!!

  BSG has a very strong 'cult' following online. try
these sites:

http://www.battlestargalactica.com/ This is Richard
Hatch/Capt Apollo's site. He's pretty much the leading
light of the effort to revive the series;

http://www.tecr.com/galactica/index.html This is the
BSG Tech Site; there are some oddities in his science,
but it's pretty good, all the same;

http://www.bsgtigger.com/stories/bsgfan.html
http://www.bsgtigger.com/stories/bsgcross.html
These two are strictly fanfic sites, aka, a
conglomeration of people who love the show, and love
to write.

It gets a little stronger every year, as more people
rediscover it, or find it for the first time.

ON RANT

And, yes, although most of the fans feel sorry for the
actors/writers, et al, from '1980', it is almost
universally despised and ignored. 

From the pilots' first airing, it stayed in the top 20
until it was canc'd.

I swear, network tv could never get it's act together.
When ABC canc'd BSG, they replaced it with 'Mork &
Mindy', which was doing pretty well at the time; not
even Robin Williams could save that time slot. 

1980 was aired 6 weeks after ABC called Glenn Larsen
into their offices and gave him the green light for a
new season...as long as it was ready in 6 weeks. 

Now, you know why '1980' sucked so bad.

OFF RANT

MACessna
  >>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:37:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:37:38 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <001001c1eb19$a772e880$0f01a8c0@terry>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204240954460.7432-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:

 Fantastic subject and at least IMTU it is not OT. As i incorporated much
from that show for MU. In fact the concept of a Battle Star flaoting
around popping in and out of jump space or seen as ships leave or enter.
Like a ghost ship. Has been a running part. My 3I has any site where
Colonial artifacts are found as a red zone.

 Oh yes i have an original Viper model and the rocket. Both in need of
repair. Bought the Galactica at a con a while back. Still in the box. Yeah
I even have a few hundred of the trading cards. Was/am a big fan of the
show. FWIW I talked to some members of the fan club right after they had
returned from the IIRC 15th anniversary con in Calif. They were at OryCon
tht year. Acording to what I was told. Glen doesn't like the 1980 either
and most fans disregard it as never happening. Best they will call it is
"Galacta-spit"

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:41:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:41:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost> <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:20:37 -0700 (PDT), Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
>great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
>money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
>putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
>retiring tomorrow.  While I don't know where all the
>money went, I know that much went to pork barrel, and
>some went to folks who never paid that much in.
>
><SNIP>

Actually, the Social Security fund was never intended to operate in
the manner you state.  Your "Instead" is, in fact, the way it was
intended to operate from the start.  If that hadn't been the case,
Social Security wouldn't have been able to start paying benefits at
its inception.

That original structure was founded on the idea that the pool of
wage-earning taxpayers would always exceed the pool of recipients.  As
the US went through the demographic surge known as the Baby Boom, the
pool of taxpayers expanded greatly while the pool of Social Security
retirees wasn't greatly increasing.

With that large surge of money going into the system, it represented
an irresistible opportunity to the politicians to expand the benefits,
which is exactly what they did (arguably, not too much of a pork
barrel).  Further, the US government also changed the law to allow use
of the Social Security surplus to pay for some of the Reagan deficits
(which, depending upon your viewpoint, might be where the bulk of the
pork might be found).

Now, as the members of the Baby Boom start approaching retirement,
there are fewer members of the pool of wage-earning taxpayers who are
paying to support a demographic bulge of retirees.  Had the government
instead simply banked the surplus at a modest interest rate, it would
not be seeing the oncoming retirement crisis (instead, we would have
had a different crisis some time ago).

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:53:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:53:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <20020424000942.7DBCE27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020424000942.7DBCE27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <27vbcu01a2v6aa5bssq5jr9je1trnjboi5@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:03:51 -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
wrote:

>Where on earth is it that people pay $400 USD for a palm pilot?  I don't
>have one, but I have never heard of anyone paying that much for one.

Except for the wireless-enabled Palms, they don't cost that much - but the
high-end Sony Cli (a licensed PalmOS box) does retail for that kind of
money.


--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:56:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:56:10 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>

From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au>

     "Australian DOD has always had onshore quarters for Naval personnel, or 
provided rent subsidies and the like to live in town (where appropriate).  
That's weird the US DOD does not..."


Mr. Hughes,

     The US DOD provides shore housing or rent subsidies for married naval 
personnel or those with children.  It's the single folk who get the sticky 
end.  In some low rent areas, single crew are able to club together and rent 
apartments or homes.  Alas, USS California's home port was NAS Alameda, 
smack dab in the middle of the SF Bay area.

     "Oh my god.  That means Australia is more advanced than the US in Naval 
Living Conditions.  Permission to shout bravo at an annoyingly loud volume!"

     Permission gladly granted!  Oz is more advanced than the World's 
Biggest Banana Republic in many areas, brewing comes first to mind.

     "...a crewman gets saddled with laundromat duty when they pull into 
port, which is only once every 6-8 weeks, and has to wash almost all the 
clothing of the ship's company. They all wear these overall things and often 
for many days at a time."

     Good grief!  Sounds as if those PBs could be detected by odor alone!  
The 42 young men in my berthing compartment had laundry done twice weekly.  
Three or four days worth of skivvies, socks, and dungarees can get rather 
"high".  Pa Whipsnade, a Korean police action vet, visited my berthing area 
once and described it succintly; "Feet and flatulence."  He professed to 
prefer any one of several foxholes he dug.

ObTrav - Why aren't stewards paid more?  Providing creature comforts for 
crew and passengers surely must be very important.  Good stewards control 
morale in the uniformed services and can lure paying high passengers to your 
nondescript Beowulf.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEODMAA.tml@downport.com>

Whether intentional or not, it still fits the textbook definition of a ponzi
scheme. And a bad idea from the start. The fact that it got bigger and
messier just follows as the night the day. Putting money away in
interest-bearing accounts would be even worse. The best thing we could do is
end the program, encourage retirement savings, roll the cost of phasing it
out into the general fund and be done with it. While we're at it, phase out
the rest of the federal retirement system and send it all private. At least
if the politicians and bureaucrats had their cookies in the jar with ours
they might be more apt to keep an eye on the Enrons and Arthur-Andersens out
there, instead of being in bed with them.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of JR Holmes
>
> Actually, the Social Security fund was never intended to operate in
> the manner you state.  Your "Instead" is, in fact, the way it was
> intended to operate from the start.  If that hadn't been the case,
> Social Security wouldn't have been able to start paying benefits at
> its inception.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700
References: <20020423175758.A7026@4dv.net> <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020423190732.A7743@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
> being paid for by the occupants of the city.

Then why subsidise?  You're forcing the well-off to pay for water and
electricity for the less well-off.  To an extent this may be
appropriate, but I wonder to what extent, exactly.  Anyone deserves
enough water for drinking to keep from dying and bathing to keep
leprosy at bay, but any more than that should be on a pay-as-you-go
basis.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and writing an exact
man.                                                            --Bacon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 12:39:15AM +0000
References: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423191108.B7743@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 12:39:15AM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> 
>      Permission gladly granted!  Oz is more advanced than the World's 
> Biggest Banana Republic in many areas, brewing comes first to mind.

?!?  Come visit Colorado sometime.  I'll take you on a tour of
breweries to make any man of refined taste want to move here.  And I
am given to understand that Oregon is our superior.

Whereas the Australian homebrewers I've encountered have uniformly
lamented the qulity of the local beer, and admitted that they--or at
least their countrymen--are most interested in brewing a high-proof
product.

> ObTrav - Why aren't stewards paid more?

Does the IN have stewards?  Ours got rid of them:-(

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There is no problem which cannot be solved by the judicious application
of firepower.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC6AF7A.14446.75EB6C@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 9:20, Paul Walker wrote:

> The welfare system should exist for two reasons,
> helping those who can't work to survive, and
> encouraging those who can work to do so. 
> Unfortunately, that is not what government officials
> use it for.  They use it as a kick-back for votes. (I
> do confess to a US-centric view of politics, but I
> would imagine it is similar.)

That doesn't seem to happen here, even tough beneficaries are a 
significant portion of the electorate. In fact the usual way of using 
them to get votes is to come up with a new way a shafting the 
unemployed without it looking like you are.

> Because the government will be likely to take more
> than they need.  Someone will present the idea that we
> can't lower the poverty level but we may not get
> enough taxes to pay next year, so we better take a
> little extra to ensure that we can pay the poverty
> level in the future.  Not to mention that we need to
> take in more taxes for our pork barrel.  
> 
> I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
> great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
> money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
> putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
> retiring tomorrow.  While I don't know where all the
> money went, I know that much went to pork barrel, and
> some went to folks who never paid that much in.

With that sort of thing it's no wonder your tax rates are highish, the 
US social spending is immense and yet in some ways there is less to 
show for it than here is in the UK, even though the US is much 
wealthier.
 
> Maybe I'm not making sense.  Suffice it to say, that I
> don't trust the government to make the right
> decisions, and the negative tax seems to put much
> trust in the government to make the right decisions.

As far as I can see it doesn't do anything that the current systems 
don't (both here and in the US) - it just does it in a more direct and 
traceable way.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:20:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:20:56 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

As an infantryman, I remember my first "short" field 
exercise, in which I didn't get a real bath or have clothes 
laundered for a mere 20 days (I've been without a bath or 
clothes washed in the field for as long as three months).

After I returned to the barracks (to "raise morale" the 
colonel had the idea that we would march back; I thought the 
real reason was to save fuel costs for the helicopters).  
This was only about 10 miles, but you work up a good sweat 
that acts like "gravy" on smelly clothes.

My roommate got back first (we were two men in a three-man 
room).  He had time to throw his stuff in the washers and get 
a shower before I got back.  He then stopped me at the 
door. "Take off your s__t out there, and then come in and get 
a shower.  You're not bringing that smelly s__t in here."

I had to run my clothes through the washer three times before 
the water would rinse clear - it was nearly solid black the 
first time around.  After I had taken my shower, the clothes 
smelled like a dead animal.  And the socks -- well, they had 
turned from issue green to black, with stuff growing on them.

After the three month stint with no bath, I just threw the 
uniforms away - the stench was incredible.

I've woken up frozen to the ground in the morning, and I've 
been hidden well enough that passing soldiers took a leak on 
me.  Twice.  (tip: never hide under the edge of bushes, 
because men feel compelled to piss there) 

Having to live with foot odor and flatulence doesn't sound so 
bad.

ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you 
can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes 
about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people 
in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek 
across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be 
more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a 
plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful 
smell to the unwashed.
________________
Employees smoking
Off company property
I'm doing their work

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:13:54PM -0400
References: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423192811.A8321@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:13:54PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> After the three month stint with no bath, I just threw the 
> uniforms away - the stench was incredible.

I wonder how much of that was a side-effect of the exertion you must
have udnergone.  I ask because as a Scout I and my brothers noted that
several camp staffers were rather proud of not showering all summer.
The pattern we detected was that for the first few days there was no
problem, then for the next several weeks they reeked to high heaven
and then they began to _lose_ the smell.  In fact, they began to smell
more like the environment than aught else.

But they _did_ launder their clothes.  So perhaps that makes a
difference.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
That's how you know you're hooked on something; when it makes you forget
to drink beer.                     --Paul Mather, commenting on The Sims

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>The pattern we detected was that for the first few days 
>there was no problem, then for the next several weeks they 
>reeked to high heaven and then they began to _lose_ the 
>smell.  In fact, they began to smell more like the 
>environment than aught else.
>

Well, until I washed when I got back, that was the case.  
After a few weeks, I couldn't smell myself, and I don't think 
that anyone could really smell me, unlike the people who 
smelled like soap.

I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago, 
and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how 
you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin 
gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.

________________
Employees smoking
Off company property
I'm doing their work

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:58:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:58:16 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:46:21PM -0400
References: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423195559.A9418@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:46:21PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> Well, until I washed when I got back, that was the case.  
> After a few weeks, I couldn't smell myself, and I don't think 
> that anyone could really smell me, unlike the people who 
> smelled like soap.

I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head hurts:-(

> I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago, 
> and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how 
> you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin 
> gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.

Interesting.  I don't think I'm ever going to get a chance to test any
of this out, though...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I once successfully declined a departmental retreat, saying that on that
day I planned instead to advance.                    --Alan J. Rosenthal

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <00cf01c1eb16$c0dab0d0$a3e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8EB60FE.39D2%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

And I'm also a  full time idiot - sorry about that post everybody.

Joe Webb 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head 
>hurts:-(
>
After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless 
they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which 
case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.

My roommate could smell me when I came back, after he had 
bathed.  

In the field after a few weeks, I could smell bathed people 
at a considerable distance if they were upwind of me.  But it 
didn't work the other way for them (if I was upwind of them).
________________
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:14:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:14:28 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
References: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV32IKcQEF2a9jE11o0001c2c0@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon wrote,

>I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago,
and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how
you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin
gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.<

That is one of my favorite movie lines.
As you note, he was joking. He was asked why he didn't bathe. His response
was that body oils, combined with sweat and dirt formed a natural barrier to
water. (He was dirty because he didn't bathe, he didn't bathe because he was
going to get dirty in a trench anyway.)
Later in the movie when they come upon a group of female Soviet soldiers, he
climbs into a hot tub with one of them fully clothed.

A really fun movie.
:)


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:18:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:18:32 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <B8EB60FE.39D2%jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B8EB62AD.39D7%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

on 4/23/02 7:05 PM, Joe Webb at jwwebb@earthlink.net wrote:

> And I'm also a  full time idiot - sorry about that post everybody.
> 
> Joe Webb 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

OK, idiot that is too fast on the draw - the original post that shouldn't
have gone was bounced.

So return to your home folks, nothing to see here (unless you count somebody
slinking under a rock a sight to see).

Joe Webb


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/23/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you
> can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes
> about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people
> in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek
> across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be
> more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a
> plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful
> smell to the unwashed.

An excellent point.  Which is why some hunters use MOPP gear to hide their
own scent.  I was always partial to Shaklee's Basic-H.  One of those
biodegradable soaps that proto-enviornmentalists (like my parents) used in
the late '70.  I don't even know if it's made anymore.  But it had no scent.
I carefully hoarded my supply for years.

(A quick search of the web shows it's still out there, though it looks
different).

I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

I've never had anyone pee on me, but I have had an unhappy policeman step
close enough to me that I could plainly make out the stitching on his Corfam
shoe in the middle of the night.  Camouflage does work.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:43:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:43:16 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8EB6984.582B5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/23/02 7:07 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> "Robert A. Uhl" says
>> 
>> I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head
>> hurts:-(
>> 
> After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless
> they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which
> case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.
> 
> My roommate could smell me when I came back, after he had
> bathed.  
> 
> In the field after a few weeks, I could smell bathed people
> at a considerable distance if they were upwind of me.  But it
> didn't work the other way for them (if I was upwind of them).

The amazing power of the nose.  After a while, it doesn't smell the stinks
it's around, but can easily detect new smells.  Quite an engineering marvel.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Combined Gurps/Megatraveller Year 1116(Long)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F110VniSnRMWuL0000016a@hotmail.com>

For your reading pleasure, I've combined the timelines from Gurps Traveller 
& Megatraveller. This is for the Year 1116, with the rest of the years 
following shortly.

Graham

========================================================================
GURPS TRAVELLER / MEGATRAVELLER TIMELINE COMPARISON.

Year: 1116

Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                           131-1116	(GURPS)
FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH

Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian was killed today when his personal gig was 
destroyed in a massive explosion of unknown origin. The gig was inbound to 
the palace from Dulinor's flagship, the cruiser Sargon, when it failed to 
change course in response to traffic control instructions, and then vanished 
in a massive fireball while in deep space.

Craft were immediately dispatched from Sargon to search for survivors, and 
were soon joined by vessels of the Imperial Navy. Search and rescue 
operations continue, but searchers acknowledge that the extremely violent 
nature of the explosion make th e possibility of any survivors increasingly 
small.

The archduke was en route to an audience with the Emperor, the subject of 
which was not available at press time. Emperor Strephon has ordered the 
Imperial Navy to take charge of a full investigation of the explosion in 
cooperation with other authorities, and has ordered Sargon and her crew into 
quarantine at the Imperial Naval base at Capital for the duration of the 
investigation. Naval vessels are in the process of tracking down any and all 
vessels that were in the area and have ordered tapes of all communications 
to and from the gig subjected to the most rigorous analysis.

The Emperor expressed his deep sadness at the news, and has sent a formal 
proclamation of his condolences to the people of the Domain of Ilelish and a 
private letter to Dulinor's wife and daughter. Funeral arrangements for the 
Archduke have not been announced.

Also killed in the blast were the Archduke's Naval aide Volante Imprey, the 
crew of the gig, and a number of other individuals. A full list of victims 
is not available at this time.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                           132-1116	(GURPS)

In a tersely-worded press release issued today, General Mueni Arap Rutan, 
commanding officer of the Imperial Guard, announced that Colonel Hiroshi 
Enera, commander of the Ilelish Regiment of the Imperial Guard, and three 
other officers of the same regimen t have submitted their resignations to 
the Emperor, effective immediately.

None of the officers could be reached for comment, and General Rutan refused 
to comment further except to say that the officers involved had all cited 
personal reasons for their resignations.

The Ilelish Regiment was serving its normal month-long period as honor 
guards in the Imperial palace when the resignations occurred, and continues 
to serve in that position. No replacements have been appointed to the 
vacancies thus created - the regiment is currently the personal command of 
General Rutan. A political motivation for the resignations is suspected, but 
no comments from anyone involved have been forthcoming.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 132-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Emperor Strephon Aella Alkhalikoi was assassinated at 1517 hours local time, 
132-1116, in the Grand Reception Hall of the Imperial Palace above 
Capital/Core. In the ensuing firefight, the Empress Iolanthe and the Grand 
Princess Iphegenia were also killed, along with the Aslan Yerlyaruiwo 
ambassador, twelve Imperial Guards, and a number of bystanders.

In the following minutes, Archduke Dulinor of Ilelish appeared before the 
cameras of the Reception Hall, claimed the crown of the Emperor by the right 
of assassination, and scattered holocrystals documenting his claim to the 
surviving crowd. He ascended the steps of the dais and sat on the iridium 
Throne briefly before leaving in the company of his bodyguard.

System Control Central reported tracking the Archduke's cruiser leaving the 
Capital system minutes later. Fleet elements are reported in pursuit.

Capital has been placed under martial law. Off-planet transportation has 
been suspended temporarily. Naval headquarters has issued a statement that 
the situation is stable and under control. Rioting is reported in the city.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 133-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The Imperial Palace above Capital has been sealed by Naval Security troops. 
Dulinor is rumored to remain concealed in the palace with a company of 
bodyguards. It remains unclear whether Dulinor fled the Capital system 
yesterday aboard his cruiser, or if he remains in the Palace. Occasional 
plasma flashes have been reported along the Grand Concourse.

Imperial officers at the scene refused comment.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 134-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Captain Sir Gerals Spirlandin, commanding the Honor Company of the 2nd 
Imperial Marine regiment, denied reports that Duke Varian, Strephon's nephew 
and heir apparent to the Iridium Throne, was killed in skirmishes within the 
Imperial Palace yesterday.

Spirlandin, 32, of Ibaru/Zarushagar, said, "The situation is under control, 
but identities of persons in the Palace remain unconfirmed."

News Service personnel have not yet been allowed inside the Palace.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 135-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Preparations for Emperor Strephon's funeral tomorrow continued without 
incident. Empress Iolanthe will be buried at the same time. Grand Princess 
Iphegenia will be buried Thirday.

The Admiralty confirmed today that the Imperial Palace has been cleared of 
disloyal elements. The apartments accorded Dulinor in the Palace have been 
retaken, with no sign of the Archduke.

The body of Prince Varian, until today heir apparent to the Iridium Throne, 
was recovered from the Imperial Palace this afternoon, and now lies in state 
alongside the Emperor in the central Hall of Nobles beneath the Moot Spire. 
Varian's funeral is scheduled for Thirday.

Crowds of mourners continue to file through the Hall of Nobles. Responding 
to the press of crowds, last minute arrangements have been made to keep the 
hall open through the night.

The Office of the Mint has suspended production of the cr1 coin pending 
coronation of the next Emperor. A generic sunburst design has been adopted 
as a temporary replacement.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 136-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Emperor Strephon and Empress Iolanthe were buried today with full state 
honors. The procession from the Hall of Nobles to the Alkhalikhoi section of 
the Imperial Park in the shadow of the Palace moved slowly and without 
incident.

Prince Lucan, Varian's younger brother, and now heir apparent to the throne, 
appeared briefly at grave side, leaving under heavy security immediately 
after the ceremony.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 137-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Following simple burial ceremonies for Grand Princess Iphegenia and Prince 
Varian, the Office of the Emperor today announced that Prince Lucan had 
formally ascended the Iridium Throne in private ceremonies in the Imperial 
Palace.

Shortly thereafter, Duke Simalr of Ushra, speaking for the Moot, charged 
that private ascension ceremonies are invalid, adding that any assumption of 
the powers of the Imperium requires the consent of the Moot.

Emperor Lucan, communicating through his seneschal, exercised the Imperial 
power to dissolve the Moot for one year. Duke Simalr of Ushra, speaking for 
the Moot, denied the legitimacy of Lucan's action in a strongly worded reply 
which was released simultaneously to the news services.

A meeting of the Moot later in the day failed to achieve a quorum. Duke 
Simalr is reported under house arrest.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                           137-1116	(GURPS)

Informed sources at the palace say that Emperor Strephon will appoint two 
new Archdukes in the coming year: Lady Isis Arepo Ilethian will be appointed 
archduchess of Ilelish, succeeding her father, the late Archduke Dulinor. 
Duke Norris Aella Alledon will be appointed the first Archduke of Deneb.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                         137-1116	(GURPS)

Prince Varian Paulo Alkhalikoi, nephew of the Emperor Strephon, announced 
today that he has decided to leave Capital on an extended vacation from the 
Imperial court.

"Life at the Imperial Court is a wondrous experience," said the prince, 
"however, I feel that I am missing an even more wondrous and varied 
experience to be had by getting away from the pressures of the palace and 
seeing more of the various societies and cultures that make up the Imperium. 
I hope to spend some time getting to know a few of the 11,000 worlds a 
little better." Varian announced no itinerary, but said he plans to try to 
travel incognito to the greatest extent possible.

The Emperor has not commented officially on his nephew's announcement, but 
indicated privately that he feels that travel cannot but help to improve 
anyone's character. Varian's brother Lucan has chosen to remain at court, 
and refused to comment on his brother's announcement, other than to wish him 
a safe journey.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                         140-1116	(GURPS)

In separate proclamations issued today, the Emperor appointed Lady Isis 
Arepo Ilethian of Dlan as Archduchess of Ilelish, and Duke Norris Aella 
Alledon of Regina as Archduke of Deneb. Formal investiture will take place 
at the palace on 001-1117. Both candidates will be present, and the Emperor 
will personally invest them with the regalia of their office, an unusual 
occurrence in view of the vast distances involved. Special task forces of 
the Imperial Navy have been dispatched to Dlan and Regina to escort the 
candidates to Capital.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                         145-1116	(GURPS)

Admiral Jori Mallory hault-Viswanath of the Imperial Navy's public relations 
branch announced today that the Navy was pursuing a number of lines of 
investigation into the explosion that killed Archduke Dulinor Astrin 
Ilethian fourteen days ago. "In cooperation with other agencies, we are 
concentrating massive resources on the investigation of the incident. We 
have recovered fragments amounting to over three-quarters of the gig (the 
largest massing over 8500 kilos, the smallest less than 200 grams) and are 
subjecting them to the most rigorous possible forensic examination. The 
gig's maintenance records have been fully examined, and every member of the 
crew of Dulinor's flagship Sargon has been interrogated. We have tracked 
down every craft that was in the near vicinity for twelve hours before and 
after the explosion. We are still not certain whether we are investigating 
an act of terrorism, a multiple homicide, or a freak accident."

Asked about the possibility that the explosion was an assassination, Admiral 
hault-Viswanath remarked that while that possibility cannot be eliminated, 
there is no direct evidence of any assassination plot. "That is one of 
several lines of investigation being actively pursued." he said, "We have 
orders from the highest level to investigate every possibility, no matter 
how remote."

Asked if remains of any of the victims of the massive explosion had been 
recovered, Admiral hault-Viswanath stated that while fragmentary remains had 
been found, none had been positively identified as those of the Archduke. 
Asked if this was unusual, other sources responded that in explosions of 
this size and power, it is unusual to find any remains at all, let alone 
anything substantial.



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               152-1116	(GURPS)

The monthly changing of the guard at the Imperial Palace took place today, 
but palace watchers say the ceremony is a little late. Imperial guard 
uniforms all look pretty much alike, especially to those unfamiliar with 
them, but a local military enthusiast whose hobby is Imperial uniforms says 
the differences are like night and day, and to her trained eyes, the Antares 
guard has been on duty for almost three weeks.

"It is fairly easy to pick out the Aslan, " says Minaro hault-Yunami, author 
of Uniforms and Equipment of the Imperial Guard, 1080-1110, " and the 
Marines are in maroon, so they stick out too. But the difference between 
Antares and Illelish is in certain details of the collar tabs and shoulder 
boards, which are pretty hard to pick out on the video screen." How does 
Minaro, who has access only to the same videos of the court as the rest of 
us ordinary citizens, know the difference?

"Every day when the Emperor enters the Long Hall on his way to the Iridium 
throne, he is preceded by an honor party of the guard. On the first day of 
the week, the honor party always wears battle dress instead of the normal 
full dress uniform. The Illelish Guard's battle dress has a black stripe 
outlining their right plastron - the Antares Guard is blank. It's a subtle 
difference, but it's there for anyone with halfway decent eyes."

What does it all mean? "It's a speculation, but I think the Ilelish Guard 
were pulled from duty so they could mourn their Archduke. It's highly 
unusual, but it's not completely unknown. The last time something like this 
happened was in the reign of Arbellatra in 632."


Jewell/Spinward Marches (1106-A777999-C)                  158-1116	(GURPS)

After months of investigation, the Office of the Judge Advocate General for 
the Imperial Navy has dismissed charges of war profiteering brought against 
Gishan Ryan Khaasira. A spokesperson for the JAG Office stated that "we have 
found no evidence to support the accusations made by certain individuals 
concerning the activities of former Lt. Khaasira during the Fifth Frontier 
War. As such, our investigation has ended and we consider the matter 
closed."

Gishan Khaasira is a former Naval intelligence officer who transferred to 
Supply after the ship on which he served, the Agidda, suffered heavy damage 
from a Zhodani attack. Khaasira then spent the remainder of the war working 
as an aide to the Quartermaster-General, Admiral Rafael Sukhamaran. It is 
because of the mysterious disappearance of several shipments of supplies 
during his tenure there that unnamed sources pointed the finger at him.

While the JAG Office has now officially cleared Lt. Khaasira of all 
wrongdoing, he has elected to resign his commission from the Navy. Khaasira 
cited the deaths of his sister during the war and of his father recently as 
the reasons for his resignation. He intends to return home and use his 
skills to rebuild his family's merchant business after years of hard times.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 200-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Unrest among the populace continues following the assassination of Strephon 
and the questionable rise to power of Emperor Lucan. Fanned by opponents 
such as Duke Simalr of Ushra, the flames of unrest have sparked rioting in 
major population centers and intense quarreling among members of the Moot.

Police and Imperial Guard troops have kept these isolated outbreaks under 
control, but their frequency and intensity are on the rise.


Vland/Vland (0307-A967A9A-F) Date: 202-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Emperor Strephon was assassinated by Archduke Dulinor of Ilelish 132-1116. 
The Central Authority issued a simple statement early today regretting the 
Emperor's death, but calling on all citizens to remain calm and remember his 
passing with dignity.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               212-1116	(GURPS)

In-system space ship traffic was snarled today when the arrival of an 
unexpected Naval courier vessel was vectored to Capital ahead of all other 
incoming vessels, causing considerable dislocation in orbital traffic 
control.

A spokesman for System Port Authority refused comment other than to state 
that the vessel had the highest military priority, and its commander 
insisted on being cleared for approach immediately. TNS reporters managed to 
locate the shift supervisor at Capi tal Far Orbit Control, who was somewhat 
more talkative on receiving assurances of anonymity.

"The transponder indicated that it was an Imperial Navy vessel," the 
supervisor said, but when the neutrino signature analysis came through, I 
recognized it as an Imperiallines TI-class. Now, a Tango Ida with a Navy 
squawker, is a little unusual. I've wor ked this duty eight years, and I've 
only seen that twice...we have a lot of TI-class ships in and out of system, 
but normally they have civilian transponders. This one demanded clearance 
straight through to the Naval Base, and we had to give it to them on account 
of the transponder priority code, even though it meant I had to spend the 
next three hours unsnarling everything." When asked what he thought it all 
meant, the supervisor winked at this reporter, and said: "Somebody had 
something they wanted to g et dirtside real fast, and they couldn't wait for 
the Xboat. Maybe Prince Lucan ordered some extra Tokay escenzia for one of 
his little parties."



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               215-1116	(GURPS)

Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian will be honored at a memorial service to be 
held in the Hall of Nobles beneath the Moot Spire on 230-1116. Because 
Dulinor's body has still not been found, mourners may view a holographic 
representaion of the Archduke, whi ch will lie in state in the Hall for 10 
days prior to the ceremony.

Emperor Strephon will deliver the main eulogy. The memorial service itself 
will incorporate aspects of the Dlani Virasan religion, but will not be a 
Virasan funeral service, as that will be held on Dlan, Dulinor's homeworld. 
Although not a follower of the Virasan faith, Dulinor was said to be deeply 
interested in its tenets, which state (among other things) that true 
believers must die a non-violent death on Dlan to attain true enlightenment.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 217-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

In the shadows of the Imperial Palace, a particularly violent clash between 
police and rioters has rocked the capital. For nearly three hours the 
skirmishes continued, as demonstrating citizens forced their way toward the 
palace against strict orders of the authorities.

Nonlethal means were finally used to disperse the crowd, but not until forty 
citizens and at least three riot policemen were killed.

A spokesman for Emperor Lucan has stated that the Emperor, though aware of 
the problem, was not concerned and did not at any time leave the palace for 
his own safety.



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               230-1116	(GURPS)

A memorial service for Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian was held in the Hall 
of Nobles beneath the Moot Spire today. Emperor Strephon, his wife Iolanthe, 
his daughter Grand Princess Ciencia Iphegenia, and the emperor's nephew 
Prince Lucan were present. The Emperor delivered the eulogy, of which the 
following are selected excerpts:

Dulinor was my friend. And Dulinor was a madman.

Harsh words? No. Rather, a tribute.

Great spirits are not normal, they are abnormal. In their ceaseless questing 
for a world which has not yet been but which they seek to bring about they 
show their alienation from the world around them. These aliens are those 
whom we call leaders, visionar ies, prophets, poets, artists - madmen. 
Dulinor was one of them, and he stood at their head.

What does it take to see the universe as it is and say it is not enough? To 
say that it can be another way that it has never been before? These are not 
the thoughts of a contented man, one who is well-adjusted to the world as he 
finds it. Well-adjusted is a compliment we throw around easily, but it is 
not a compliment that applies to a leader. Because leaders are never 
well-adjusted; they are always discontent, they always seek a universe that 
does not exist, and they strive to make that universe a reality. This 
striving is the opposite of being well-adjusted, it is madness.

In all the years I knew him, Dulinor never ceased striving, and I loved him 
for it.

Talent, we are reminded by the ancient philosopher, is the capacity for 
opposites. If so, then Dulinor was perhaps the most talented of us all. 
Cloaked in contradictions, like the black garb he wore, imposed upon him by 
a faith he did not embrace, he serv ed and defied, agreed and challenged. He 
was unpopular, and indispensable. He went to his death believing in the 
course of his life, and not caring if others understood. His life and death 
are perhaps a warning to those of talent who would follow after him, that 
the candle that burns brightest burns briefest. Let all talented madmen 
remember that the life of service comes at great cost, but let them never 
shrink from it.

Dulinor died in the blackness that he wore in life, and as in that life, 
never being fully of it, but also not rejecting it.

We will not see his like again.

Roget/Spinward Marches                  231-1116	(GURPS)

Mercenary and former member of an elite Darrian unit Htarlehtoir was today 
invested as ko (clan chief) of the Feiftiusaea Clan, one of four which 
jointly control Roget.

This is an unusual clan in that it has both Aslan and human prides; 
Htarlehtoir is the first human to act as ko for any of the four clans.


Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G)                  244-1116	(GURPS)

Sector Admiral Hutara Astrin Ilethian, brother of the late Archduke Dulinor 
of Ilelish, has announced that he is resigning his commission, effective 
immediately. In a short press release read by the admiral's newly-appointed 
aide, Lieutenant Tadashi Conacht hault-Musillo, the admiral stated that he 
is resigning in order to devote his full attention to the management of the 
family lands and business interests now that his niece has been appointed 
Archduchess in her father's place.

The admiral stated that his niece would now be busy with government duties, 
and would no longer be able to devote the time necessary to keep the various 
Ilethian family interests running properly.

Asked why the admiral had not made the announcement himself, the lieutenant 
stated that the admiral has been ill the last few days, and while he was 
well on his way to recovery, his doctors felt the added strain of a public 
appearance might delay his recovery.


Sacnoth/Spinward Marches                  244-1116	(GURPS)

The University of Sacnoth today launched an appeal for funds to purchase 
rare Aslan artifacts. Professor Elke Ragnarsdottir, leading the appeal, 
said: "Unfortunately, neither the University nor the government are willing 
to provide funding, so we must appeal directly to the public."

She continued, "These pieces are important because they may prove that Aslan 
ranged as far coreward as Mithril, centuries before they were thought to 
have reached the Marches. This is a golden opportunity to learn more about 
them, but they need to be studied scientifically, and the best chance of 
that is for the University to acquire them."

The artifacts were found on Mithril in 1106, and have since been in the 
hands of a private collector, who is now selling them to raise money for 
other projects.

Other bidders are likely to include the Darrian government and Aslan 
traders. The Darrian Embassy declined to comment on why their government 
might want to buy the pieces.

If she fails to acquire the pieces, Professor Ragnarsdottir plans to use 
whatever money is raised to mount an expedition to Mithril in the hopes of 
discovering more items at the original site.

Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G) Date: 245-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The Archduke's official state visit to Capital ended abruptly with his 
surprise return to Dlan and his immediate call for a full-media press 
conference on the steps of the palace for later in the day.

After appearing wearing an elaborately fashioned crown, the Archduke began 
his statement with a list of wrongs and abuses perpetrated by Emperor 
Strephon. He concluded with the startling statement: "The Emperor is dead! I 
have dedicated my life to the people of the Imperium. I claim the Iridium 
Throne by right of assassination, and shall rule this Imperium as Emperor 
Dulinor."

The stunned public then listened as the Emperor called for a complete 
mobilization to seize all of the Imperium for his sacred cause. He made a 
public and official request to Admiral Hutara, his brother, for the Ilelish 
Fleet to side with him in his sacred struggle to gain his rightfully secured 
place on the throne.

The Emperor Dulinor retired to his chamber without answering questions. A 
subsequent statement detailing the new Emperor's trip to Capital and the 
assassination of Strephon on the Iridium Throne itself. The statement 
concluded with an account of Dulinor's ascension of the Throne to the well- 
wishing cheers of millions of Capital's citizenry, followed by a selection 
of patriotic video cassettes.

Celebrations have been organized on Dlan and throughout the sector as the 
populace is encouraged to honor the beginning of new age for the Imperium 
and Ilelish sector.


Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G)                  245-1116	(GURPS)

Puzzled citizens of Dlan who wondered why every entertainment channel was 
airing re-runs during prime-time last night now have an answer. An unknown 
agency reserved two hours of air time last night and cancelled a week or so 
ago, without telling anyone what the reservation was for.

The Dlan Minister of Communication's office had no formal comment, but a 
high official in that office stated "Somebody's out several mega-credits. 
They reserved the time almost a year ago, and paid by a bank draft from a 
numbered account, then last wee k we got a message that cancelled the 
reservation and told us to run whatever we wanted. It was too late to try to 
sell the time elsewhere, of course, so we let individual regional managers 
decide."

Speculation is rampant in the local entertainment industry, and guesses 
range from a new holofilm technique that didn't pan out to a massive (and 
very costly) practical joke. One rumor was a news flash of great importance, 
but no one can agree on what that might have been.

Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G) Date: 248-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Sector Admiral Hutara and his fleet officers made an official announcement 
that the Ilelish Fleet has declared for Dulinor. In a brief but ancient 
ceremony, Hutara offered his dagger to Dulinor, who solemnly accepted, and 
then briefly embraced his brother.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  262-1116	(GURPS)

After months of intensive investigation, the Imperial board of inquiry into 
the explosion of Archduke Dulinor's personal gig on 131-1116 is unable to 
physically confirm that Dulinor died in the explosion, or that he was even 
aboard the gig when it was destroyed. Officially, he is still listed as 
"missing, presumed dead." They have been able to confirm that the explosion 
was no accident. So far, this has been their only conclusion.

"We have testimony from Sargon's crew that the archduke and his staff 
boarded the gig," said an unnamed source close to the investigation, "but we 
haven't been able to find a trace of remains - well, not his remains, 
anyway." According to testim ony of several of the crew, Dulinor's flagship, 
the cruiser Sargon, launched the gig with the normal crew of two plus a port 
guide from customs, Archduke Dulinor and fourteen members of his personal 
staff, and three bodyguards plus assorted baggage for the party. The 
explosion was so powerful that not a single complete body has been 
recovered, although DNA and other evidence has accounted for sixteen of the 
nineteen passengers.

"The pattern of the wreckage indicated three separate, simultaneous 
explosions, calculated to pulverize the entire passenger compartment," the 
unnamed source continued. "The explosions all originated in the compartments 
where baggage would ordinarily b e stored." Dulinor's own standing orders, 
however, provide for constant supervision of the loading process by his 
bodyguards, and further require that the security staff who guard and 
oversee loading of the gig must accompany it when it departs. If these 
requirements were followed, it would seem that at least one of the 
perpetrators was killed along with the intended victim.

The unnamed source emphasized that investigators are still not convinced 
that Dulinor was the target of the explosion, although "At this point . . . 
that's the way to bet."



Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G)                  265-1116	(GURPS)

What started as a minor protest rally at the government center on Dlan 
escalated into a major civil confrontation between police and local 
citizens. A large crowd protesting what they called the Imperial Navy's 
cover-up of events surrounding Archduke Dulinor's death assembled without a 
permit and became hostile when ordered to disperse.

More than 600 rioters ransacked offices of the Imperial Navy, the Imperial 
Interstellar Scout Service and the Office of Calendar Compliance, all 
located in the downtown Imperial office building. Local police and 
constabulary forces dispersed the crowds within a few minutes, using 
non-lethal crowd-control devices. Sixteen people, none of them police, were 
treated and released at local medical centers.

The destruction apparently was haphazard. The Naval office, which suffered 
the heaviest damage, was primarily a public-relations and recruiting center. 
At the time of the riots, only civilian employees were present.


Amdani/Daibei (2034-A727A88-E) Date: 265-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Heightened high-level conferences and military activity in the area have 
done nothing to quell rumors that Core sector is in civil unrest. Statements 
from the nobility have been universally, "No comment."

As of this date, all naval personnel have been put on special alert, all 
shore leaves have been canceled, and a complete media blackout of naval 
exercises has been imposed. The Admiralty has no comment.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  270-1116	(GURPS)

Prince Lucan Alkhalikoi, nephew of the Emperor Strephon, announced today 
that he will imitate his brother Varian and take an extended tour of the 
Imperium.

"My brother and I often discussed taking a grand tour of the Imperium 
together," said the prince, "but we could never agree on the specifics, and 
when he departed earlier this year on his own, I felt compelled to remain at 
Capital for personal reasons. I have recently decided however, that I, too, 
must become more familiar with the Imperium, although I intend to do it in a 
different way than my brother."

Prince Lucan went on to say that he has not yet completed plans for his 
trip, and that his itinerary remains open. He did confirm that he will delay 
his departure until after the archducal investiture ceremony on 000-1117, so 
that he may attend on beha lf of his branch of the Imperial family.

The Emperor had no official comment on his nephew's decision, but sources at 
the palace indicate he approves.




Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  282-1116	(GURPS)

Commo Tech First Class Gani Riisha is having trouble getting his possessions 
back from the Imperial Navy. Gani Riisha was one of the crewmembers of 
Archduke Dulinor's flagship Sargon, and his possessions are, for some 
reason, relevant to the invest igation into the explosion that killed the 
Archduke and several others on 131-1116.

"They questioned me quite intensively," Riisha said, "because I was on duty 
on the bridge when the gig blew up. I expected them to want my signal logs 
and everything official, but why do they need my uniforms and my personal 
kit? They released me from cus tody after a few days, and they've been very 
generous in supplying me with replacement clothing and such, but there are a 
number of items of a personal nature I'd like to get back. They can't even 
tell me when I can expect to see them."

Gani is not alone. While most of Sargon's crew members (and their 
possessions) have been released from custody, the Imperial Navy still 
retains the flagship itself, some of the crew's personal gear, and three 
members of the crew itself under tight security.

The Imperial Navy Public Relations Office refuses to comment, other than to 
say that the personnel and items are necessary to the ongoing investigation, 
and that the crewmembers are not suspects at this time.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  289-1116	(GURPS)

The Imperial Navy has released several transcripts relating to the death of 
Archduke Dulinor in an explosion on 131-1116. The transcripts describe 
communications between the gig and inner-system traffic control, but also 
include selections from the gig 's flight-data recorder.

The gig's last response to traffic control was at 13:22:34-131-1116, when 
the gig's pilot acknowledged and carried out an instruction to alter course. 
A short time later (13:39:48-131-1116), traffic control issued a course 
correction instruction, but the gig did not acknowledge. The gig's 
navigational transponder ceased broadcasting at 13:41:06-131-1116, which is 
within seconds of the time the gig's flight-data recorder lost contact with 
all instruments, and approximately the time several other ships in the area 
reported a bright flash from the gig's coordinates.

All in all, the data released confirms the Navy's contention that several 
near simultaneous explosions destroyed the gig, killing all aboard 
instantly. When asked about the gig's cockpit voice recorder, Navy spokesmen 
responded that the instrument was severely damaged in the blast, and that it 
was still undergoing reconstructive analysis.



Quiru/Lunion (2321)                  289-1116	(GURPS)

The gas-giant planet Plistii, in the Lunion subsector of the Spinward 
Marches, underwent a violent shudder beginning on 341-1115, causing some 
small concern for the inhabitants of Quiru, one of Plistii's satellites 
(Quiru/Lunion 2321). A panic among the world's 3,200 citizens was averted by 
quick-thinking MainLines Shipping officials, who were able to gain a few 
hours advance notice of the disturbance and stage an evacuation drill while 
the event took place.

"We got everybody in one place, within sight of the emergency evacuation 
vessels, and then told them what was going on," said a company spokesman. 
"We gave everybody the day off with pay, and started playing dance music and 
serving food. It turned into a holiday, and had things turned sour w e could 
have had everybody on the evac ships and out of there in a couple of hours."

Details are still sparse, but the event appears to have been either a 
massive storm front in the gas giant, or else some kind of "gasquake" deep 
in the giant's liquid-hydrogen core. Company officials are monitoring the 
gas giant for further events, but so far nothing other than a few minor 
aftershocks has been detected.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  292-1116	(GURPS)

TNS sources learned today that Imperial Navy intelligence operatives may 
have foiled a plot to assassinate Lady Isis Arepo Illethian. Confidential 
sources suggest that a series of arrests on Capital and elsewhere in the 
sector were a result of a long-term undercover operation combating terrorist 
activity in Core sector. According to the sources, the purpose of the 
assassination was to galvanize anti-Imperial feelings in the Domain of 
Ilelish and spark a revolt there by blaming the assassination on Emperor 
Strephon.

A spokesman for the Imperial Navy refused to comment on TNS reports about a 
plot, and would neither confirm nor deny the existence of any undercover 
operations in Core sector or elsewhere. The spokesman did state that both 
Lady Isis and Archduke Norris were traveling to Capital under a Naval 
escort, and that their precise schedules and itineraries were classified.


Amdani/Daibei (2034-A727A88-E) Date: 309-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Official announcement of Emperor Strephon's assassination has reached the 
sector. The nobility has also released a statement encouraging the populace 
to have faith in the systematic and peaceful shift of power to Strephon's 
heir, Duke Varian.

Subsequent messages from Core sector have indicated that Varian was killed 
in combat in and around the palace area. Prince Lucan is apparently the new 
Emperor of the Imperium.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 310-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Lucan announced that unrest in Core sector has been dealt with successfully. 
All citizens are encouraged to have faith in the new Emperor, despite 
unsubstantiated rival claims to the throne.

Emperor Lucan also announced that the Core Fleet is on the move towards Dlan 
to hunt down the criminal Dulinor. His actions warrant death, and he will 
certainly be brought to justice.


Terra/Solomani Rim (0207-A867A69-F) Date: 313-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

In an unexpected move, much of the Imperial Rim Fleet has been concentrated 
and many reservists have been placed on alert. No substantial explanation 
has been forthcoming.

General Yoshtiru of the Terran Home Guard has called for a high level 
command conference of the commanders of all troops stationed on Terra.


Terra/Solomani Rim (0207-A867A69-F) Date: 322-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Military installations in Asia, Africa, and North America have been closed 
to civilians. All active duty personnel worldwide have been recalled from 
leave or furlough.

An unofficial source stated that large shipments of materials have been 
arriving at these closed installations. The exact nature of the shipments is 
unknown, and no official Home Guard spokesman will comment on the issue.


Rhylanor/Spinward Marches                   324-1116	(GURPS)

Subsector law enforcement agencies and the general public were today warned 
by the Imperial Navy to be on the lookout for Miguel Casimir, also known as 
Casimir Clarke or Miguel Clarke, who is wanted for a variety of crimes 
including impersonating an Imperial officer, theft of Imperial property, 
piracy and murder.

Commander Miles Cullan of the Imperial Navy said, "Casimir -- or whatever 
name he is now using -- recently escaped from a maximum security prison at a 
classified location, killing two guards in the process. We believe that he 
will attempt to dupe loyal ci tizens into hiding him by claiming to be the 
victim of a government cover-up. Do not be deceived, this man is a vicious 
animal. "

Commander Cullan explained that because of the charges of piracy, the Navy 
has been asked to lead the investigation. He went on to say that the 
fugitive has escaped before, and on that occasion claimed to be a member of 
an Imperial Research Station, and t hat Imperial and megacorporate interests 
were pursuing him to suppress a radical new power generation technology he 
had developed after examination of Ancient artifacts. "Casimir may use this 
story again," said Cullan, "and let's be completely clear: There is 
absolutely no truth in it."

Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 330-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The ducal household announced that Duke Norris of Regina will travel to 
Rhylanor to meet with representatives from several key worlds in the 
Spinward Marches and Deneb sectors. The conference is scheduled to cover 
"economic matters", a general term used when the agenda has not been made 
public. The exact nature of the meeting has not been disclosed.

In related matters, a rumor that the Duke has recently received a private 
communication from Emperor Strephon has not been confirmed by official 
sources.


Romarr/Spinward Marches                   331-1116		(GURPS)

The ruling council of Romarr today authorized Spinward Spice & Spirits, LIC, 
to export 250 tons of dust-spice without paying the normal duties and 
tariffs.

This measure, which will allow SSS to undersell its competitors, is likely 
to save the troubled company from bankruptcy.

A company representative, Captain Mark Spencer, denied charges of corruption 
or nepotism, stating the a business case for deferred payment of duty had 
been presented to the Council and accepted by them.

When asked whether he thought the shipments were at risk from ihatei 
marauders, Captain Spencer replied that SSS would be hiring additional 
security staff.


Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 340-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The ducal household announced that Duke Norris was elevated to the rank of 
Archduke of the Domain of Deneb by the hand of Emperor Strephon on 091-1116 
in recognition of his activities in the late Fifth Frontier War.

The Duke plans a trip to Capital to personally accept the Emperor's 
blessing.


Nusku/Sol                  351-1116				(GURPS)

At the request of the Marquis of Nusku, the planetary Duma today ordered 
military protection for an archaeological dig on New Kodiak Island. 
Civilians with no connection with the scientific team have been barred from 
approaching or la nding on the island.


Duma spokesman Ian Direma stated that the Marquis had gathered information 
suggesting that the dig site was the focus of a conspiracy to loot 
archaeological relics. When pressed for details, Direma referred the 
journalists conducting the interview to Marquis Yushchenko's office. The 
Marquis could not be reached for comment.

New Kodiak Island is known to have been the location of a minor command 
center for Terran forces during the Interstellar Wars period. The Reinhardt 
Foundation has been excavating the site for three years, thus far without 
any results of interest to the general public.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  354-1116		(GURPS)

The ships carrying Lady Isis Arepo Illethian and Duke Norris of Regina 
arrived in system today. TNS has learned that the fleets, which merged at 
some unspecified point along their respective paths, actually arrived in 
Core sector some time ago, and hav e spent the intervening period in 
security isolation at an unspecified location.

A press conference is scheduled for next week, shortly before the ceremonies 
that will confirm Lady Isis as Archduchess of Ilelish and Duke Norris as 
Archduke of Deneb.



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  356-1116		(GURPS)

The Imperial Navy has issued a report on its investigation of Archduke 
Dulinor's death, ending several months of speculation. The report concludes 
that Dulinor was killed on 131-1116 when the gig on which he was a passenger 
vanished in a massive explos ion. The report further states that, in the 
opinion of the investigators, the explosion was intentional, and represents 
an act of assassination by a party or parties unknown.

Investigators could not find any remains, but DNA extracted from tissues 
recovered from the wreckage was conclusively identified as being Dulinor's. 
The report also concludes that one or more of Dulinor's assassins also 
perished in the explosion, but i s unable to reach any conclusion on whether 
this was a deliberate act of suicide.

Unofficial sources close to the investigation state that there was 
considerable controversy among investigators as to whether the DNA finally 
confirmed as Dulinor's came from his body or from medical stockpiles carried 
as part of his luggage (many nobl es travel with medical supplies cloned and 
cultured from their own tissues, but it is not known for certain whether 
Dulinor followed this practice).

The complete text of the report was delivered to the Emperor yesterday, and 
will be released to the press after a copy has been delivered to Lady Isis, 
the archduke's daughter and heir.




Capital/Core                  357-1116			(GURPS)

Informed sources within the Imperial Ministry of Justice today confirmed 
that the formal search for the assassin or assassins of Archduke Dulinor 
will be conducted by a special team formed from members of the Imperial 
Navy, the Scout S ervice, and the Ministry of Justice, among others.

No details as to membership were made available, but the sources indicated 
that the team will have nearly unprecedented investigative powers and will 
consist of top investigators from several agencies other than those named 
above.

The team will report directly to the Emperor, and has already begun 
operations based on the Imperial Navy's investigation into the explosion of 
131-1116, which killed the Archduke and the crew of his personal gig.


Aristotle/Solomani Rim (1740-A269985-E)                  360-1116		(GURPS)

The Confederation Navy today announced the conclusion of their quadrennial 
SWIFT RETRIBUTION XXIV readiness exercise. "Civilian traffic in the Gemini 
Subsector may safely return to normal operations," said Commissioner Ignacy 
Aszykkrol , public affairs spokesman for Doan Naval Base. "We are aware of 
the inconvenience these maneuvers cause," he continued, "but the price of 
freedom is eternal vigilance." Commissioner Aszykkrol refused to comment on 
the nature of the exercise or the elemen ts involved, saying only that the 
event had been "entirely satisfactory, good training and a complete 
success."

Later, Lloyd's of London and the Traveller's Aid Society issued a joint 
bulletin rescinding the subsector-wide Amber travel advisory posted for 
Gemini Subsector on 060-1116.


Capital/Core                  364-1116			(GURPS)

Despite the Imperial Navy's conclusions to the contrary, a small number of 
people believe that Archduke Dulinor is still alive. Almost from the start, 
according to sources in the Ministry of Justice, reports of the Archduke's 
survival were received, although the vast majority of them could be 
dismissed by investigators after minimal investigation

An anonymous source reveals that almost a thousand separate reports of 
"Dulinor sightings" were filed with the Imperial Navy, and that more than 
two dozen investigators were assigned to follow them up. Every report was 
found to be without factual basis , but this has not prevented the growth of 
persistent rumors that Dulinor either survived the explosion of Sargon's gig 
or was never aboard the vessel to begin with.

"A lot of people see someone they think resembles the late Archduke," our 
source said, "and let their imaginations run away with them." Evidently, 
many of the "sightings" occurred almost simultaneously in locations 
separated by several parsecs. Even the most outrageous reports were 
completely investigated, our source assured us, and all of them proved to be 
". . . a waste of time and resources."



Lanth/Spinward Marches (1719-A879533-B)                  365-1116	(GURPS)

An Imperial board of inquiry has declared the 10,000-dton passenger liner 
S.S. Sundance lost with all hands. The Sundance, one of Al Morai's Sunfarer 
class of luxury express liners, has been missing since she fail ed to make 
her scheduled planetfall at Lanth on 118-1114, en route from Regina to Mora. 
She was carrying 3,084 passengers (2,054 in cold sleep), 577 crew, and 419 
dtons of cargo when she left Ghandi/Spinward Marches (1815-B211455-A) on 
110-1114. The loss is officially listed as "cause unknown; presumed 
misadventure."

This ruling paves the way for the settlement of claims brought by Sundance's 
shippers and passengers' next of kin. Al Morai officials steadfastly deny 
allegations of improper maintenance or use of unrefined fuel as possible 
explanations for the ship's disappearence, citing their excellent 
operational record and impeccable safety rating from the Imperial Grand 
Survey.


Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

Speaking on condition that he not be quoted, a retired officer of the 
Imperial Interstellar Scout Service confirms that there may be a kernel of 
truth behind Colonel Ruys de Bessier's allegations that Imperial POWs are 
still within the Zhodani Consulate but that they are there of their own 
volition.

"I won't even begin to summarize the reasons, but in almost every war a 
certain number of people perform what might be considered questionable acts 
and are hesitant about returning home . . . some of them take advantage of 
the chaos of war to assume new identities, others simply take a liking to 
their new home and decide not to leave." The officer stopped short of saying 
any Imperials were guilty of treason, but offered the following: "Imperial 
intelligence knows that a number of serving members of the Imperial military 
during the Fifth Frontier War were Zho sympathizers. I think that is pretty 
much what we have here."

The officer concluded: "It doesn't make sense anyway . . . why would the 
Zhos keep POWs this long after the war? You can spin all sorts of crackpot 
conspiracy/espionage scenarios, but most of these are fodder for cheap 
action/adventure holos."



Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

Former Imperial Army Intelligence officer Colonel Ruys de Bessier alleged 
today that the Zhodani Consulate continues to hold POW's captured during the 
Fourth and Fifth Frontier Wars. Colonel de Bessier recently resigned from 
the Imperi al Army citing "matters of conscience."

During a hastily-organized press conference today, Colonel de Bessier 
presented what he described as "overwhelming evidence that many of our 
comrades continue to languish in Zhodani prisons. This is a travesty of 
civilized behavior, and I, for one , refuse to keep silent any longer."

Colonel de Bessier maintains that from 2,000 to as many as 10,000 Imperial 
personnel are held at a number of locations within the Zhodani Consulate, 
and that seven of these locations have been "positively identified." Colonel 
de Bessier refused to disclose by what means these identifications were 
made.

Imperial Military sources declined to comment on these allegations.

A spokesperson for the Zhodani Consulate described the allegations as 
"laughable and lamentable" and "yet another impediment to lasting peace" but 
refused further comment.


Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

General Mueni Arap Rutan, commanding officer of the Imperial Guard, 
announced the appointment of Colonel Murnas De&#8217;Angelo as commander of the 
Ilelish Regiment of the Imperial Guard. The appointment of Colonel 
De&#8217;Angelo, former executive officer of the Antares Regiment of the Imperial 
Guard, finally fills the vacancy created with the retirement of Colonel 
Hiroshi Enera earlier this year. The regiment spent the intervening time 
under the personal command of General Rutan.

There remain three other vacancies in the Ilelish Regiment, also created by 
unexpected retirements earlier in the year, but neither General Rutan nor 
Colonel De&#8217;Angelo would comment on how soon those positions would be filled.


Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

The Imperial Navy has finally returned the personal possessions it impounded 
from Commo Tech First Class Gani Riishao earlier this year. Riisha was on 
duty on Sargon's bridge on 131-1116, when the gig containing Archduke 
Dulinor exploded, killing all aboard.

Gani received no explanation from the Navy, other than a short letter 
apologizing for any inconvenience he may have suffered, and inventorying his 
possessions.

"Nothing seems to be missing," Gani said, "But they still haven't told me 
why the kept everything for so long. I'm more than a little curious."



Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

In a short press release issued today, Prince Lucan, nephew of Emperor 
Strephon, announced that he has changed his mind about embarking on a tour 
of the Imperium.

"My application to the Imperial Naval Academy has been accepted," said the 
prince, "and I will serve a term as an officer upon my graduation." Lucan 
explained that he had been too hasty in announcing his intention to embark 
on a grand tour, and decided , after considerable thought, that he did not 
want to imitate his brother Varian too closely. "I have always been taught 
that each of us must chart his own course." Lucan said, "and I finally 
concluded that I had been too hasty in my earlier decision."

Emperor Strephon had no comment on his nephew's decision, except to state 
that he would support Lucan's decision.


Antares/Antares                  365-1116			(GURPS)

In a joint press conference at the archducal station of Cerise, Archduke 
Brzk and Adkhar Shirushi, head of the sector's Church of the Stellar 
Divinity, announced that the Star of Jyestha will be sent on tour throughout 
the Imperium. Th e Star is a religious artifact believed to have belonged to 
Jyestha Yerubid, the founder of the Church during the days of the First 
Imperium. As there are many autonomous churches of this faith throughout the 
Imperium, this gesture on the part of the Anta rean church is of 
considerable importance.

An itinerary and timetable for the Star's journey has yet to be completed, 
but both Archduke Brzk and Shirushi agreed that it would be present on 
Capital in time for the festivities surrounding the emperor's Golden 
Jubilee.


Jesedipere/Spinward Marches                  365-1116	(GURPS)

A cell of the anti-Vargr group Superioriti has sprung up on this backwater 
world of the Spinward Marches. For the past ten years, Jesedipere has been 
home to an increasing number of Vargr refugees fleeing the depredations of 
the Kforuz eng corsair band. Because of the world's lack of a central 
government, clashes between its original human inhabitants and the Vargr 
newcomers are common. The rise of Superioriti will only exacerbate the 
situation.

The commander of the local Scout base, Nanda Theiss, has attempted to act as 
a mediator between the groups, but to little avail. She stated that "the 
situation is worsening and I fully expect larger-scale violence to erupt if 
something is not done."




_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:51:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:51:06 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:35PM -0400
References: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423204938.A10385@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:35PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless 
> they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which 
> case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.

Interesting.  One of my favourite treats is apricot snuff (the nasal
sort, natuerlich).  Oddly enough, it has no aroma indoors, but if one
steps outside it's really quite powerful, as though one has crammed a
pair of apricots up one's nose, one in each nostril.  Really quite
incredible how something can have no smell and an amazingly powerful
smell, depending simply on the surroundings.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a
reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating
the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for
independence.         --Charles A. Beard (1874-1948), U.S. historian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/23/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you
> > can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes
> > about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people
> > in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek
> > across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be
> > more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a
> > plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful
> > smell to the unwashed.
> 
> An excellent point.  Which is why some hunters use MOPP gear to hide their
> own scent.  I was always partial to Shaklee's Basic-H.  One of those
> biodegradable soaps that proto-enviornmentalists (like my parents) used in
> the late '70.  I don't even know if it's made anymore.  But it had no scent.
> I carefully hoarded my supply for years.

I'm so glad I have all you people to tell me these things.  They are NOT
things I'd ever want to find out on my own!

(I loathe getting dirty and am famous for the line, "if you expect me to
have sex with you we'd better be sleeping someplace with indoor
plumbing.")

I'd probably smell from miles away to the unwashed.  I never use anything
but Shiseido "Taiyou no Megumi" liquid body soap, which has orange, lemon
and yuzu extract in it and has quite a strong citrus smell.  The fruit
acids are good for my oily skin, and it wakes me up in the morning <G> but
no one's ever complained about it because it has no synthetic perfumes in
it.  The same goes for my shampoo, which has camellia oil in it and is the
thing that enables me and many other women to keep their long, straight
hair long and straight and shiny.

> I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
> more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
withstanding!

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:11:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:11:16 2002
Subject: Field Life (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC62145.B5492FFB@premier.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> on 4/23/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> >
> > ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you
> > can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes
> > about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people
> > in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek
> > across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be
> > more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a
> > plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful
> > smell to the unwashed.

For shorter field exercises (too short to become accustomed to field
funk), I found that Deep Woods Off (r) insect repellent was useful in
masking said field funk (when sprayed liberally on both self and
uniforms).  Of course, DWO (r) (even the so-called "non-scented"
variety) would no doubt be easily smelled by someone who _had_ become
accustomed to field funk (since acclimation to natural odors is often
accompanied by sensitization to artificial odors).  Yet another reason
why being a REMF in the field is unusually hazardous....

<<snip>>
> 
> I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
> more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

Hmmm, let's see.  The light from a cigarette lighter can be seen from
way-far away, the smell can be detected from way-far away (downwind,
anyway), the sound of a metal cigarette lighter snapping open or shut
carries for several hundred meters in quiet conditions and the increased
heat created by taking a drag off a cigarette makes the whole head glow
like a lantern when viewed through night-vision devices.

All we need to add are taste and touch for a five-senses symphony of
detection. ;-)

And all this is at TL-7/8 (for the increased sensitivity of the Mk I
Human Sensor Array, it's TL-0).  Imagine how easily a smoker can be
spotted at TL-12+.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8EB6FA1.5837F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 6:05 PM, James Ramsay at quakers_united@yahoo.com.au wrote:

> QUOTE
> The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
> civilians.  It has little or no military application,
> contrary to popular mythos.
> END QUOTE
>=20
> True. But......
>=20
> They don't like it up 'em mister mainwaring, they
> don't like it up 'em ;)
>=20
> James

Which reminded me of Robert Service and this little ditty:

When first I left Blighty they gave me a bay'nit
And told me it 'ad to be smothered wiv gore;
But blimey! I 'aven't been able to stain it,
So far as I've gone wiv the vintage of war.
For ain't it a fraud! when a Boche and yours truly
Gits into a mix in the grit and the grime,
'E jerks up 'is 'ands wiv a yell and 'e's duly
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

=A0=A0=A0Left, right, Hans and Fritz!
=A0=A0=A0Goose step, keep up yer mits!
=A0=A0=A0Oh my, Ain't it a shyme!
=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

At toasting a biscuit me bay'nit's a dandy;
I've used it to open a bully beef can;
For pokin' the fire it comes in werry 'andy;
For any old thing but for stickin' a man.
'Ow often I've said: "'Ere, I'm goin' to press you
Into a 'Un till you're seasoned for prime,"
And fiercely I rushes to do it, but bless you!
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

=A0=A0=A0Lor, yus; DON'T they look glad?
=A0=A0=A0Right O! 'Owl Kamerad!
=A0=A0=A0Oh my, always the syme!
=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

I'm 'untin' for someone to christen me bay'nit,
Some nice juicy Chewton wot's fightin' in France;
I'm fairly down-'earted -- 'ow CAN yer explain it?
I keeps gettin' prisoners every chance.
As soon as they sees me they ups and surrenders,
Extended like monkeys wot's tryin' to climb;
And I uses me bay'nit -- to slit their suspenders --
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

=A0=A0=A0Four 'Uns; lor, wot a bag!
=A0=A0=A0'Ere, Fritz, sample a fag!
=A0=A0=A0Oh my, ain't it a gyme!
=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEODMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEODMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <548ccucmeghot0o03arn2ncsi1vctsa0qf@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 21:06:30 -0400, "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> wrote:

>Whether intentional or not, it still fits the textbook definition of a =
ponzi
>scheme. And a bad idea from the start. The fact that it got bigger and
>messier just follows as the night the day. Putting money away in
>interest-bearing accounts would be even worse. The best thing we could =
do is
>end the program, encourage retirement savings, roll the cost of phasing =
it
>out into the general fund and be done with it. While we're at it, phase =
out
>the rest of the federal retirement system and send it all private. At =
least
>if the politicians and bureaucrats had their cookies in the jar with =
ours
>they might be more apt to keep an eye on the Enrons and Arthur-Andersens=
 out
>there, instead of being in bed with them.

To their credit, at least some of the US politicians have recognized
these arguments and their electoral popularity quite some time ago.
At first, it was just the laws which permitted the creation of tax
deferred retirement accounts (known as Individual Retirement Accounts,
IRAs), which not only allowed, but encouraged a sensible wage earner
to plan for his own retirement.

And, before we get too far into US tax and social debate, I'll leave
further discussion aside.

ObTrav:  Is it any wonder that this isn't a topic discussed in regard
to Law Levels or Government type.  This is almost as sensitive a topic
as Theocracies or Dictatorships.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:22:18 2002
Subject: Field Life (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
In-Reply-To: <3CC62145.B5492FFB@premier.net>
Message-ID: <B8EB727B.58385%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/23/02 8:06 PM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:

> 
> And all this is at TL-7/8 (for the increased sensitivity of the Mk I
> Human Sensor Array, it's TL-0).  Imagine how easily a smoker can be
> spotted at TL-12+.

If a high tech sensor picked up trace elements from tobacco, it's gurantees
that sophs are about (The US government's attempts to get dogs to smoke
notwithstanding).
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:26:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:26:48 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
References: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org> <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20020423183217.00ac19d8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC62532.4060905@yarranet.net.au>

Jimmy Simpson wrote:

> At 06:59 PM 4/23/2002 +0100, Brian Caball wrote:
> 
>> On Tuesday 23 April 2002 17:04, William Lane wrote:
>> > I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 
>> (in fact
>> > i try to pretend it never happened.)
>>
>>
>> I think we all did that ;->

If you wanted to forget Galactica 1980 you should have lived here in oz 
where they never showed it. I only found out it even existed about 5 
years ago.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20423.202030.2k6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I think that the first versions should be some sort of spider-
> legged robot along the lines of some of Rodney Brooks' 
> creations.  They should hide in the daytime and come out at 
> night.  They should be airdropped into the rear, and they 
> should be used to spy on things.  Also, if discovered, they 
> should shoot every warm body they see.  Maybe even give them 
> a blade or two to become an intelligent lawnmower.
>
> The psychological implications are great.  Now, who wants to 
> go on patrol tonight, knowing that if you find one of these 
> things, it's going to make meat by-product out of most of 
> your patrol?
>
> I think a gadget like this is already "do-able"

A story in analog during the Vietnam war had a similar idea. A low
flying (treetop skimming) armed drone "plane" that was *very* quiet.

It'd come upon a group of VC or the like and shoot the most aggressive,
dedicated members. The rumor was that it had a "telepathic gunsight".

The real explanation was that it was programmed to fire on anybody who
shot at it! Anybody who has the presence of mind to fire at something
like this when surprised by it is *definitely* someone you want to
kill. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <DAV43ywkGmY8TkomDt500003bb3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20423.201805.9j0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being tried
> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

There were several stories along that line. One was titled "Brillo"
(they named the robot that because it was "metal fuzz" :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:13:17 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEDKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20423.204803.3O9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>>
>> No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
>> homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
>> sex isn't a sin.
>
> You misstate the RR POV, which says there is no *being* in the equation.
> That would suggest something physical. They tend to deny causation outside
> of the fallen (sin) condition. You correctly stated the RCC position, which
> like the jewish view holds that only the act is condemnable.

Yes, and I was replying to a comment that *specificly* mentioned the
Catholic Church. And used "Church" rather than "Christians" to convey
that.

I wasn't talking about the RRR (Radical Religious right) position. Nor
did the section of the post I was replying to. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus> <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

 >
 > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
 >
 > On 4/23/2002 at 5:05 PM ondy wrote:
 >
 >
 >> Love the cover! Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the
 >> pdf will be somewhat better. I will be buying this.
 >>
 >
 > The jpgs don't do it justice really, so I just posted a
 > 4-page PDF sample also. Same pages, but you get a better
 > look at the layout!
 >
 > http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001s.pdf

Hunter,

The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.

Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
into a single product for your Aide line?

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] High Guard to GT Conversion: Tigress DN
Message-ID: <3CC5EF23.19744.FC0AC1@localhost>

--Message-Boundary-8749
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body

Heres my first attempt at converting my all time favorite CT design



--Message-Boundary-8749
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-disposition: inline
Content-description: Attachment information.

The following section of this message contains a file attachment
prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system,
you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

   ---- File information -----------
     File:  TL12 500,000-ton Tigress-class Dreadnought.htm
     Date:  23 Apr 2002, 23:30
     Size:  6305 bytes.
     Type:  HTML-text

--Message-Boundary-8749
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ZCB3aXRoIEdUUyBWZXJzaW9uIDIuMjkuMDggb24gNC8yMy8wMiAxMTozMDozMCBQTTxCUj4N
CkNvcHlyaWdodCCpIDIwMDAgYnkgDQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo=

--Message-Boundary-8749--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:36:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:36:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
 <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <200204240037330379.D4645864@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>Hunter,
>
>The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
>concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
>printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
>that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
>likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.
>
>Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
>into a single product for your Aide line?

It depends on what changes would be needed for a specific on-screen version.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20422.182252.6Q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 19:23
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism

In mail you write:

> If anyone in the Portland/Vancouver area that is on this list hears
> about any job that could use someone good with computers or telecom,
> please email me off-list.

I'm trying to scrape by until I can sell some property. Alas, it looks
like I need to spend several hundred bucks I can't afford just to make
the property likely to sell... :-(
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the reply, Leonard.  Everytime I see people on the street
corners with signs, I think to myself that "someday, that will be me".
I think our economy is too sick to recover.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>; from j-man@attbi.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:43PM -0700
References: <20422.182252.6Q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <20020423231739.A10823@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:43PM -0700, J-Man wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the reply, Leonard.  Everytime I see people on the street
> corners with signs, I think to myself that "someday, that will be me".
> I think our economy is too sick to recover.

Don't worry--no economy is too sick to recover.  This ain't the Great
Depression (thankfully: do _any_ of us want to make our children
miserable with tales of the beginning of the century?).  I rather
think that things are in the slow beginnings of a turn-around.  What
really worries me is the war.  Wars wreck havoc on economies.  The
reasons that the Great War and WWII did not on ours (ask Germans how
the 20s and late 40s were) is that in both we had a good supply of
folks to whom we were the only producers around.

Look at the '70s; at the early '90s.  What worries me is that our
current war is going to make the late '00s nasty indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DAV39YAPNXRPmcarcR4000047a2@hotmail.com>

> >> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being
> tried
> >> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce
the
> >> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
> >> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

> >Not off-hand, but that sounds like one of Harry Harrison's from _War
> >with the Robots_.

> Isaac Asimov, The Caves of Steel, circa 1952.

> Wan't that called 'Brillo' ?

Leading to the next natural question:  How many times has this storyline
been done?

FWIW I think 'Brillo' is the one I had in mind when I originally posted.
Wouldn't bet money on it though.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:39:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:39:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV128tG4tOlxlMWvaw00024086@hotmail.com>

> My favorite robot policeman is ED-209.

Gotta love ED-209.

<snip about Autonomous Robot Infantry>

Presumably biological friendlies on the ground in the ARI op area would
carry some kind of IFF transponder to keep from being carved up by their own
'bot.

Now _there's_ a piece of equipment you'd hate to see manufactured by the
lowest bidder <G>.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 00:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 23:34:03 2002
Subject: Public Health (was Re: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <20020424000942.7DBCE27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E170GLO-0004sI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > 
> > Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think
> > it would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> > bathing and sanitation...
> 
> That means you want the rest of the state to fund your desire to live
> where it's expensive (those subsidies have to come from somewhere).
> That's hardly a good thing.

How about funding sanitation for public health reasons?  Even if 
only 5% of the people lack adequate water for sanitation and must 
crap in the street, the disease risk is increased for *everyone*  
public health measures are a common good that is far more 
effective if everyone has access to it, just like vaccination.  The 
pandemics that swept the entire world for milllennia ended for a 
reason.  This reason was a combination of state-sponsored public 
health measures (for dyptheria, typhus and similar bacterial 
diseases) and vaccination (for viruses like polo and smallpox).  If 
these efforts were privately run then the vaccinations might still 
help many people, but the risks of a vaccine that only lasts a 
decade or two (ad many do) would be far higher and public health 
measures would not protect people nearly as well.  

ObTrav:  Have the PCs visit a amber or red zone world (likely the 
only worlds in the Imperium without at least access to basic 
medical tech) with old style epidemic disease, and have the visit 
occur during an outbreak.  The history of the old pandemics was 
horrifying and even if the PCs were immune, life would be rough 
(especially if anyone figured out they were immune).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 00:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 23:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote

> What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a 
> fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who think
> they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to complain
> that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and agitate
> for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact that lead
> to such a system in the first place, since the rationale that supports
> it can be easily used to support increases, and whether society wants
> to try and "buy" them off).

I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.
 
> There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family (?).
>  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those who
> went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this is
> the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of
> "non-working" class in Europe....

Given how rapidly automation is advancing (much modern office 
work will be obsolete in under 20 years), we are almost certainly 
going to have a combination of increasing GNPs *and* an 
increasing number of people out of work in the entire First World.  
Why should they not share in the bounty of an economy that no 
longer has need for (and in fact, likely cannot deal with) for 
everyone to be employed.  

Look at www.technocracyinc.org for some unusual ideas (that I 
agree with) on this front.

Ob Trav: I wonder how many High Tech worlds in the Imperium 
have large unemployed populations.  Finding a way into space on a 
tramp freighter and Imperial service are likely popular ways around 
this lack of on-world work.


-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 01:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 00:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700
References: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com> <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020424010057.A11114@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
> that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.

Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from
firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure
they often use are suicides.  They also fail to mention that at least
three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other
criminals in disputes over illicit drugs,+or police shooting criminals
engaged in felonies.  Subtracting those, we are left with no more than
3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 01:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 00:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204240723.AAA08458@ping.iii.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

>On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> 
>> Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
>> being paid for by the occupants of the city.
>
>Then why subsidise?  You're forcing the well-off to pay for water and
>electricity for the less well-off.

The issue at hand was sanitation, and the reason is simple: good sanitation
and the like is in everyone's interest.  Do you really want sewage pooling
in your neighbor's yard because he can't or won't pay to clean it up?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 01:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 00:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com> <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and that
> it soon will be be one in much of the First World.

Despite living in a country that subsidises its unemployed to a higher
standard of living than its part-time workers, I couldn't agree with
you less.  A guaranteed income is a luxury that a first-world country
can afford, and may even become an entitlement of citizenship, but it
is far from a fundamental right.

Fundamental rights pertain only to things that you may not have taken
from you.  All else is merely benefits or entitlements of a particular
society.


> Given how rapidly automation is advancing (much modern office work
> will be obsolete in under 20 years), we are almost certainly going
> to have a combination of increasing GNPs *and* an increasing number
> of people out of work in the entire First World.

I partially agree with you.  Not on the subject of the obsolescence of
office work; that's been projected "in 20 years" for as long as cheap
and abundant fusion power has, for much the same reasons.

Increasing GNPs, certainly.  Increasing unemployment, possibly.  More
people deciding that they can support themselves in comfort on less
work, yes.  If it wasn't for the government's anti-incentives, I'd be
working comfortably in a part-time job now instead of deciding whether
I'd rather work full-time with buckets of cash and no time to spend
it, or not work at all and have heaps of time to pursue open-source
programming but not save any money.


> Why should they not share in the bounty of an economy that no longer
> has need for (and in fact, likely cannot deal with) for everyone to
> be employed.

An economy can *always* deal with more workers, if left to market
forces.  If there's a surplus of any labour, skilled or unskilled,
wages for those workers can drop until goods or services become viable
to take up all the surplus.  However, quite understandable political
interests and regulations get in the way in practice.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 03:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Wed Apr 24 02:25:02 2002
Subject: Only a month late but --- was Re: [TML] Who are we?
Message-ID: <1B52330D-5764-11D6-B7BF-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

100+ Digests to catch up on...

Is anyone archiving these? ;-)

Name: Dominic Mooney
Age: 30
Country: UK (currently time sharing between Leeds and Liverpool)
Favorite version of Traveller: T4.1 playtest with HG2 for ships, MT as 
fallback
Military Service: None
Favorite Supplement: High Guard 2, Hard Times, Milieu 0 Campaign, 
mumble-mumble Rim of Fire, Far Trader
Favorite Sector: Solomani Rim
Favorite Race: Zhodani
Favorite Empire: Solomani Confederation
Favorite Worlds: The Promise Subsector ones during Hard Times


---------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com----------
     MacOS X 10.1 - Unix with Style
"Reality, is something that you rise above..
We don't see things as they are,  we see them as we are."
Rich - Marillion - .com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 04:08:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 24 03:08:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424010057.A11114@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204241231200.20326-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

(This seems too much off-topic, I will continue this only on tml-chat, but
will not forward this there, because Robert is not there.)

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
> > that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.
> Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

Well, considering that advancing technology seems to require less and less
labor to work it, I think that we will have more and more unemployed
people in the future. 

Not everybody is capable of working in a service profession. 

This _is_ a big problem. Hopefully we will make up something...

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231704.EVL07840@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC73DFE.1550.56B779@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 13:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST 
> series is that everyone is an officer.

That didn't bother me in the slightest, seeing as there were often 
engineering officers doing what we'd have ratings employed at. 
Obviously the later Star Trek period saw a lot of 'job inflation' in 
the Federation. Probably some bureaucrat thought it'd help morale or 
recruitment if everyone in Starfleet got to be an officer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74248.6442.6778E7@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 15:52, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Of course, you can't beat an autonomous robot infantryman for 
> sheer terror.  It's probably a bit harder to kill than a real 
> infantryman, and it's probably a much better shot. And if you 
> manage to kill it, all you've done is trash some electronic 
> parts.  Not very satisfying.  And you probably can't capture 
> one - even if you caught one in a net, it's probably too 
> dangerous.
> 
> I think that the first versions should be some sort of spider-
> legged robot along the lines of some of Rodney Brooks' 
> creations.  They should hide in the daytime and come out at 
> night.  They should be airdropped into the rear, and they 
> should be used to spy on things.  Also, if discovered, they 
> should shoot every warm body they see.  Maybe even give them 
> a blade or two to become an intelligent lawnmower.
> 
> The psychological implications are great.  Now, who wants to 
> go on patrol tonight, knowing that if you find one of these 
> things, it's going to make meat by-product out of most of 
> your patrol?
> 
> I think a gadget like this is already "do-able"

Pity they'll be rather vunerable to man-portable EMP generators, which 
can be made really cheaply.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:42:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:42:38 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC5E36E.801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CC74249.2877.6779B3@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 15:42, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> > Well the importance of even centurions in much of that strife argues 
> > for them being considered officers - very few coups in the modern world 
> > are started and managed by sergeants.
> 
> Au contraire. A number of coups in Africa have been started by Non-coms. 
> IIRC one of the Liberian coup leaders started as a Master Sergeant, 
> wasn't he? Robert someting or another...
> 
> Also, I believe it was a number of Non-coms who started one of the coups 
> against Noriega in Panama, just before the US invasion.

Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are by officers in the 
Captain to Colonel range, with the next group being those run by 
Generals, though these are quite often one General replacing another 
and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have to do more 
reading, methinks.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:45:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:45:25 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8eb83b1f99b@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74249.9558.677A81@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 17:26, David P. Summers wrote:

> A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more people living on 
> public assistance.  (It may not be 50%, but it will depend on what 
> the level is set at).

Curiously even though this is effectively the case in this country 
unemployment and beneficiary numbers are more dependant on other 
factors than on how much money is paid out to 'dole bludgers' and I 
very much doubt that this would change unless quite a lot more money 
was paid to them.
 
> What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a 
> fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who 
> think they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to 
> complain that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and 
> agitate for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact 
> that lead to such a system in the first place, since the rationale 
> that supports it can be easily used to support increases, and whether 
> society wants to try and "buy" them off).
> 
> There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family 
> (?).  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those 
> who went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this 
> is the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of 
> "non-working" class in Europe....

Until the economy is in a state where the demand for labour is such 
that industries are short of it and people are still refusing to work 
it really doesn't matter if some (or most) of the people not working 
aren't because they can't be bothered.

However I do agree that if the level of support is high enough some 
people will chosse to simply not bother to work. In fact it can be )and 
is) arguned that the level of support to solo parents in this country 
is at that level.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:48:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:48:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019586447.9084.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204231803.g3NI3xJ17762@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3CC74248.24093.67780F@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 11:27, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Steven Hudson writes:
> 
> >   ObTrav: the IN is _the_ crucial piece of the 3I's public 
> > infrastructure; the Throne maintains an effective monopoly
> > on its own ownership. Right?
> 
> Well, by definition the IN is only controlled by the Imperium.  However, the
> Throne does not have an effective monopoly on interstellar naval forces.
> 
> However, the other public infrastructure controlled by the throne is just as
> crucial (though, once again, not a monopoly).  That's starports.

Likewise the X-boat system and the survey apparatus, though again these 
aren't a monoploy.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com>
References: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 19:29, JR Holmes wrote:

> Actually, the Social Security fund was never intended to operate in
> the manner you state.  Your "Instead" is, in fact, the way it was
> intended to operate from the start.  If that hadn't been the case,
> Social Security wouldn't have been able to start paying benefits at
> its inception.
> 
> That original structure was founded on the idea that the pool of
> wage-earning taxpayers would always exceed the pool of recipients.  As
> the US went through the demographic surge known as the Baby Boom, the
> pool of taxpayers expanded greatly while the pool of Social Security
> retirees wasn't greatly increasing.
> 
> With that large surge of money going into the system, it represented
> an irresistible opportunity to the politicians to expand the benefits,
> which is exactly what they did (arguably, not too much of a pork
> barrel).  Further, the US government also changed the law to allow use
> of the Social Security surplus to pay for some of the Reagan deficits
> (which, depending upon your viewpoint, might be where the bulk of the
> pork might be found).
> 
> Now, as the members of the Baby Boom start approaching retirement,
> there are fewer members of the pool of wage-earning taxpayers who are
> paying to support a demographic bulge of retirees.  Had the government
> instead simply banked the surplus at a modest interest rate, it would
> not be seeing the oncoming retirement crisis (instead, we would have
> had a different crisis some time ago).

Hmm. Makes NZ's situation look even worse than it is. Our 
superannuation system was supposed to be a form of government 
subsidised savings, but in the 70s everything got put into a 
consolidated fund for efficencies' sake (actually IMO it was so that 
creative spending practices were easier to hide) and mysteriously by 
the mid-80s all the super fund seemed to have gotten lost. Theft by 
government, ain't it grand?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423190732.A7743@4dv.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CC74404.23217.6E3D9E@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 19:07, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > 
> > Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
> > being paid for by the occupants of the city.
> 
> Then why subsidise?  You're forcing the well-off to pay for water and
> electricity for the less well-off.  To an extent this may be
> appropriate, but I wonder to what extent, exactly.  Anyone deserves
> enough water for drinking to keep from dying and bathing to keep
> leprosy at bay, but any more than that should be on a pay-as-you-go
> basis.

If the wealthy want those they pass on the street to not offend their 
noses, why shouldn't they contribute towards the lower orders hygene?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:57:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:57:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74404.13930.6E3CAD@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 0:39, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Permission gladly granted!  Oz is more advanced than the World's 
> Biggest Banana Republic in many areas, brewing comes first to mind.

That must make NZ incredibly advenced then. :)

As a New Zealander I just had to make that dig. Can't have the Aussies 
thinking they brew better beer than we.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:01:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:01:43 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
References: <20020424063707.194DD27A34@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>

Kiri Aradia Morgan posted:
> 
> I'm so glad I have all you people to tell me these things.  They are NOT
> things I'd ever want to find out on my own!
> 
<snip> 
> > I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
> > more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

This is also the reason, I believe, a number of LRRP members in Viet Nam
ate only local food..or so I've heard. Some of the military vets on list
can probably confirm or lay this to rest.

An interesting sidenote for Traveller is the experience on one of the
many
Apollo flights. Apollo 8, I think. 'Twould seem one of the astronauts
had
a bout with some food that didn't agree with him. It hit when they had
been
in orbit preparatory to leaving for the moon. No one informed Mission 
Control and they were told to proceed (lose out on going to the moon
'cause
of the trots? As if!).

Unfortunately, the only "solids" toilet on board was in the form of
waterproof
bags with an adhesive on the inner rim of the opening. The adhesive
didn't
quite take. Everyone helped clean up the mess that had spread from the
Lunar Module, where the sick astronaut took care of business, to the
Command
Module.

A couple of weeks later, a poor Navy diver opened the hatch after the
capsule splashed down and almost fell off the capsule's floats when the
stench of two weeks of unwashed bodies and other things in something the
size of a small walk-in closet hit him.

Oh, and the space shuttle itself also tends to be aired out after each
mission. And, yes, the real toilet can get backed up. It happened about
5-6 missions ago. It was one to the ISS when the space station didn't
have
a permanent working toilet; the rookie on the mission was told by
Mission
Control to break out the long-sleeved plastic glove. It really was his
responsibility, not an act of bad humor.

He was considered the hero of the mission and I'm NOT joking.

So if a PC ever wants to work his passage by doing maintenance work...

GMs can truly have fun with PCs in small starships. <evil grin>

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74719.7719.7A4A2B@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 21:46, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Well, until I washed when I got back, that was the case.  
> After a few weeks, I couldn't smell myself, and I don't think 
> that anyone could really smell me, unlike the people who 
> smelled like soap.

That's my experience, too. It's one of the reasons we didn't like 
officers carping on about shaving in the bush - even a little bit of 
soap smells (and you have to re-apply camo cream on all that nice clean 
face, and any cuts are likely to get infected).
 
> I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago, 
> and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how 
> you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin 
> gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.

I found that after a week or two my hands became a lot less sensitive 
to extreme temperatures (like hot metal canteens of tea) even though 
the skin didn't thicken - it went sort of glassy, though. I also found 
that you didn't notice your own smell or that of your unit, but other 
units did smell a bit. Handy in bush with visibilty measured in metres 
or less.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <DAV32IKcQEF2a9jE11o0001c2c0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC747A3.30593.7C6423@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 22:09, Samuel D. Weiss wrote:

> John T. Kwon wrote,
> 
> >I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago,
> and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how
> you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin
> gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.<
> 
> That is one of my favorite movie lines.
> As you note, he was joking. He was asked why he didn't bathe. His response
> was that body oils, combined with sweat and dirt formed a natural barrier to
> water. (He was dirty because he didn't bathe, he didn't bathe because he was
> going to get dirty in a trench anyway.)
> Later in the movie when they come upon a group of female Soviet soldiers, he
> climbs into a hot tub with one of them fully clothed.
> 
> A really fun movie.
> :)

It's one of my favourites for getting idjits who've watched too much 
rambo to watch before playing in military or pseudo-military games. 
That and The Wild Bunch to instill proper respect for machineguns.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:11:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:11:43 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC748AA.24912.8066F4@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 20:06, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:

> > I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes
> > carries.  There's more than one reason for snipers to be
> > non-smokers. 
> 
> I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
> for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
> withstanding!

The way cigarette smoke clings is one of the reasons I seldom go to 
pubs these days. It's also way we used to try and get all the smokers 
assigned to other sections before an exercise (that and the fact that 
smoker's cough is not a good thing to be having in a tactical 
situation).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424010057.A11114@4dv.net>
References: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CC74B22.1400.8A0C31@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 1:00, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > 
> > I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
> > that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.
> 
> Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

Why shouldn't someone get something if they can't do anything because 
there's no opening for them? A few years back here in NZ a document 
from the Treasury was leaked which reported that in order to keep the 
inflation rate under 2% (the target at that time, IIRC) interest rates 
would have to be maintained at a point which would also maintain the 
unemployment rate at over 6%. Now if a country is going to do something 
like this in order that its businesses, investors and workers (though I 
have my doubts about there having been any concerns about the latter at 
that time) might prosper, surely it has an obligation to look after 
those that it has ensured cannot be employed?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:21:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:21:54 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CC74B22.1369.8A0CF3@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 17:50, Timothy Little wrote:

> I partially agree with you.  Not on the subject of the obsolescence of
> office work; that's been projected "in 20 years" for as long as cheap
> and abundant fusion power has, for much the same reasons.

Like the 'paperless office'. :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:25:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:25:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423231739.A10823@4dv.net>
References: <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>; from j-man@attbi.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:43PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CC74B22.11314.8A0B4B@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 23:17, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Don't worry--no economy is too sick to recover.  This ain't the Great
> Depression (thankfully: do _any_ of us want to make our children
> miserable with tales of the beginning of the century?).  I rather
> think that things are in the slow beginnings of a turn-around.  What
> really worries me is the war.  Wars wreck havoc on economies.  The
> reasons that the Great War and WWII did not on ours (ask Germans how
> the 20s and late 40s were) is that in both we had a good supply of
> folks to whom we were the only producers around.
> 
> Look at the '70s; at the early '90s.  What worries me is that our
> current war is going to make the late '00s nasty indeed.

Which war? The US expenditure on 'war' was quite high even before 
11Sep2001.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:27:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:27:51 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC74BB9.7090.8C5923@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 6:54, David Smart wrote:

> This is also the reason, I believe, a number of LRRP members in Viet Nam
> ate only local food..or so I've heard. Some of the military vets on list
> can probably confirm or lay this to rest.

AFAIK it's true, and was also done by Commonwealth forces in Malaysia.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:48:02 2002
Subject: Stench (was Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>

----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....


> "Robert A. Uhl" says
> >
> >I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head
> >hurts:-(
> >
> After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless
> they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which
> case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.
>
> My roommate could smell me when I came back, after he had
> bathed.
>
> In the field after a few weeks, I could smell bathed people
> at a considerable distance if they were upwind of me.  But it
> didn't work the other way for them (if I was upwind of them).


There used to be this show on TV about Vietnam (I'm sure that somebody
remembers it), and I remember a particular episode where the platoon was
going to take an attractive female new reporter on patrol with them.  All
the guys in the platoon showered, shaved, and slapped on the colone so they
would look godd when the woman arrived, and the platoon sergant chewed them
out for it...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 07:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 24 06:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <20020424000941.9F23227A05@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424145442.00bc2b80@mail.pi.se>

>Message: 5
>Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:51:57 -0500
>From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hello!

>For anyone that might know the answer:
>
>While working on my Mire landgrab, I have come up with a question that I 
>hope someone on the TML might know an answer for.  (Preferably a correct 
>one.  :-) )
>
>What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain in 
>order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?

If you ignore special cases, such as 3:2 orbit resonance (like 
Pluto/Neptune) or 1:1 orbit resonances (like tadpole orbits), and also 
assume the orbits must be stable over long times, like the age of our solar 
system, you basically have two limiters.

The first and more strict one is that the orbits won't be stable in the 
"forbidden zones" of another planet. The simplest way to think of this is 
to think of the Lagrange points of the system. The LG-1 point (usually this 
is considered to be the equilibrium point between the two bodies) separates 
where a particle should orbit either body. So in your example, the planet 
outside Mire will have an LG-1 point a bit inward. Mire can't orbit between 
that point and the outer planet, it must orbit between the local sun and 
the point. Like this

SUN ---- Mire --- Outer Planet's LG-1 --- Outer Planet

The exact breaking point here depends on the masses involved, but the 
example you give is with certainty stable unless the outer planet is 
extremely eccentric and it has a serious mass compared to the local sun. 
For an Earth-size planet around a Solar-mass star, the LG-1 is only about 
1% of the total distance away from the planet, or about four times further 
away than the moon.

The second one has to do with stability radii in multiple planet systems. 
This can be approximated by using Hill radii equations (for "real" 
calculations you need serious computing runs)  Again, this is an 
approximation and gross simplification, and I am not a professional 
astronomer so I may well misunderstand the math and theory.

But if we assume the central star of your example has a mass of 1/3 of our 
Sun, and Mire is Earth-size and orbits in a circular orbit at 0.2 AU the 
outer planet can orbit at 0.3 AU as long as it is not more massive than 
20-40 Earths (or about twice the size of Neptune or Uranus) without 
disrupting Mire's orbit. It would still affect it, though. If the outer 
planet is Earth-size too, you could potentially have a stable orbit at 0.25 
AU for the outer world.

If we take the original 0.4 AU, the world could be Saturn-size or even a 
bit bigger and Mire would still be stable. For a Jupiter-size world, you 
would likely need a distance of about 0.5 AU from the central star, so in 
this case the next stable orbit would be farther away than the Traveller 
orbit number says.

However, you could get a 3:1 orbit resonance (Mire does three orbits in one 
orbit of the outer world) by placing the second world at about 0.41 AU, and 
in this case Mire might be stable even if the outer planet is as big as 
Jupiter, or larger. This world would still affect the orbit a bit, though.

>The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a 
>distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.  Can 
>that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without 
>affecting Mire's orbit?

As above, unless the outer planet is a large gas giant it is IMO very 
likely the orbit would be stable.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 07:34:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 24 06:34:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
(whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
aged and infirm.  

Something I keep telling my children:

Every able bodied person has an obligation to defend the 
weak.  That's a rather broad obligation, but it's there.  If 
you see someone beating someone, you have to stop it and/or 
get help.  And if someone is unable to work, or is starving, 
you have to help them.

Now, whether or not the government is any good at these 
things is something else.  There are times when you can't 
wait for a policeman to come.  And there are times when you 
can't wait for social services to get their act together.  
You don't have to shoulder the whole world, but you have to 
do something.  Just standing there is not an option.
________________
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <F42fOy8Wx1jgTGAP2tb00002903@hotmail.com>

In mail, "Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com> said...

<SNIP>
>If by "tech dreams" you mean any new research, I disagree with the
>philosophy implicit in your statement.  If, on the other hand, you mean
>pie-in-the-sky nonsense, we're on the same page.
>.
>.
>.
>
>I don't know if the Cromatica system will turn out to be research or
>pie-in-the-sky nonsense.
</SNIP>

Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they' wanted to trial in 
the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras were linked to a database 
containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to alert the local 
police when a 'non-desirable' tried entering the city center (note; in 
England, shopping centers/malls can exclude people for illegal behviour, so 
this is not considered a violation of their rights).
Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of 10,000 bodies 
would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals free to go about 
their crimes...
Does anyone know what happened to this idea?

ObTrav: quite a few; PCs and/or friends get 'misidentified' (either way ;-), 
homicidal maniac gets into a busy shopping complex, "robo-mountie" suffers 
silicon senility and starts arresting *everybody*... ad infinitum.

Jeff.

"You want me to stand *where*??"

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:04:03 2002
Subject: Stench (was Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
In-Reply-To: <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <B8EC093B.58417%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/24/02 5:52 AM, Christopher Pratt at cdpratt@gatecom.com wrote:

> There used to be this show on TV about Vietnam (I'm sure that somebody
> remembers it), and I remember a particular episode where the platoon was
> going to take an attractive female new reporter on patrol with them.  All
> the guys in the platoon showered, shaved, and slapped on the colone so they
> would look godd when the woman arrived, and the platoon sergant chewed them
> out for it...

"Tour of Duty".  Strangely, that very episode was on yesterday.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-lethal weapons
Message-ID: <B8EC0B99.58449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all.  Earlier this month someone sent me the URL for an
interesting website on how non-lethal weapons work.  Which I have, of
course, lost.  If that kind soul could resend, I would be most grateful.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]

> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they' 
> wanted to trial in 
> the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras were linked 
> to a database 
> containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to 
> alert the local 
> police when a 'non-desirable' tried entering the city center 
> (note; in 
> England, shopping centers/malls can exclude people for 
> illegal behviour, so 
> this is not considered a violation of their rights).
> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of 
> 10,000 bodies 
> would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals 
> free to go about 
> their crimes...

Ummm, not quite...

As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
their identity will be free to go about their business.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:24:02 2002
Subject: Only a month late but --- was Re: [TML] Who are we?
In-Reply-To: <1B52330D-5764-11D6-B7BF-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <20020424142311.66979.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> Is anyone archiving these? ;-)

I think I have most of them, but I haven't had tome to
sort through them yet.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:36:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:36:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Who are we?
In-Reply-To: <20020424142311.66979.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEFNDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Citizens of the TML at http://www.downport.com/traveller/TML.shtml has been
around a few years. I'm getting ready to do a periodic update if anyone want
s to add /delete / modify any or their bio info on there.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
> --- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> > Is anyone archiving these? ;-)
>
> I think I have most of them, but I haven't had tome to
> sort through them yet.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <B8EC12F8.58455%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/24/02 7:20 AM, Matthew Bond at mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk wrote:

> 
> Ummm, not quite...
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

So they run undesirables out of town?  Nice.  Where do these people go?  And
who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or just those
detained by the police at some previous time?  What about those who have
already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going to be harassed
by the police.

This brings up an interesting question for PC visiting a relatively high law
level world.  Are they entered into a database because adventurers are a
suspicious class of people?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <DAV35SmLAztxc1o8yfo00004bf8@hotmail.com>

Visionics is the name of the company providing (some of) these systems.

There's a pretty fair article about the thing at:

http://www.mediaeater.com/cameras/news/10-2001.html

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:59:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:59:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B87@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Bond [mailto:mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk]
> Ummm, not quite...
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons 
> banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer 
> to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.
> 
> Matt

That said, of course, you are right that there may be false negatives...
so of the 4 failures on two will be innocents inconvenienced by s
policeman asking them who they are, and two will be 'undesirables' who
get to roam the area unmolested... of course, the next camera that sees
them might well pick them out anyway if the failure rate is 'per check'.
And if the police have copies of the mugshots available in their patrol
car (or downloadable to a handheld device) then they can swiftly check
that the person they are questioning is indeed on the list or not.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <200204241458.EXD05545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
<snip about the "smart" camera system>

The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
be.

Factor in the following:

a.  Criminal warrant issued, but no picture
b.  Criminal warrant issued, but not entered into database in 
a timely manner
c.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
found not guilty, data not updated
d.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
does his time, is released, and data not updated

I bet the actual error rate is over 50 percent.  Just go on 
the web and look at the state of Maryland's sex offender 
registry.  They state up front that they can't keep it up to 
date.  They don't really know where these people live.  I 
spoke to someone in that department, and they said that the 
only way to find out accurate information about a particular 
individual is to call and ask for an actual check - they go 
out and find the individual in question.

The culture and infrastructure for systems like these to be 
near 100 percent accurate do not exist.

________________
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:05:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:05:46 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA2270D@USCHM203>

All those infantry odor stories bring back some memories. In my experience,
I never noticed my own smell or that of anyone else around, though as others
have said, after a shower back in the barracks, you could smell the reek off
of your dirty clothes.
One thing you could smell, if you were on regular duty, was a company
returning from several weeks in the field. I swear you could smell them from
about a hundred yards away, and it only grew in intensity until you thought
a herd of goats was passing by.
Probably why my Gunny called everyone "Goddamn goatsmellers!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <200204241509.g3OF9LD01728@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
...
>ObTrav - Why aren't stewards paid more?  Providing creature comforts for 
>crew and passengers surely must be very important.  Good stewards control 
>morale in the uniformed services and can lure paying high passengers to your 
>nondescript Beowulf.

  Economics? If Steward-0 is six weeks F/T at Chez Ronaldo's, then
there's going to be lots of those people available. As it happens
I subscribe to the "spaceship pilots are going to be quite common,
actually" school but the relatively specialized (spaceship) skills
are still going to have greater market value through rarity.

  OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than
Pilot-3 or Engineering-3 - those latter don't clearly affect the
bottom line, after all.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For the Gun Bunnies out there...
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020424111106.00b8da70@mail.charter.net>

and I is one... (Ok...compared to some I'm a fluffy white house rabbit 
while they are dangerous cave guarding rabbits with sharp pointy teeth...)

<http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/modernfirepower/>

Currently in Playtest, you have to a Pyramid subscriber to access the 
playtest files and boards.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:17:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:17:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <200204241458.EXD05545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC7743B.26719.1EA397@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 10:58, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
> <snip about the "smart" camera system>
> 
> The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
> the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
> Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
> to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
> serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
> incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
> be.

How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
least keep the false positive rate down.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B88@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tod Glenn [mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com]
> Sent: 24 April 2002 15:45
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
> 
> 
> on 4/24/02 7:20 AM, Matthew Bond at mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Ummm, not quite...
> > 
> > As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons 
> banned/convicted
> > etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> > flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and 
> either arrested
> > or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> > bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police 
> officer to confirm
> > their identity will be free to go about their business.
> 
> So they run undesirables out of town?  Nice.

Hardly. They would only be restricted from the main shopping precincts.

>  Where do these 
> people go?

Local shops in the area they lived.

>  And
> who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
> crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or 
> just those
> detained by the police at some previous time?  What about 
> those who have
> already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going 
> to be harassed
> by the police.

I would expect that the idea was to only inclued persistent
shoplifters/vandals/muggers/car thieves etc
And it is hardly and great difficulty to flag each record with an expiry
date.

So upon a criminal coming before the courts for the umpteenth time for
such offences the court can order that their 'mugshot' be placed on the
system for a specified length of time. If they stop offending then after
that time they are removed from the database.

> This brings up an interesting question for PC visiting a 
> relatively high law
> level world.  Are they entered into a database because 
> adventurers are a
> suspicious class of people?

I can certainly see this happening on certain planets who want to keep
track of 'offworlders'. IIRC the second Stainless Steel Rat book
(Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge, I think) by Harry Harrison had such a
culture as the main antagonists.

Matt 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For the Gun Bunnies out there...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020424111106.00b8da70@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3CC7779E.14945.2BE21E@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 11:14, Mark Urbin wrote:

> and I is one... (Ok...compared to some I'm a fluffy white house rabbit 
> while they are dangerous cave guarding rabbits with sharp pointy teeth...)
> 
> <http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/modernfirepower/>
> 
> Currently in Playtest, you have to a Pyramid subscriber to access the 
> playtest files and boards.

Actually while the boards and stuff is still up, it's now out of playtest. 
Lots of fun stuff though, including good (IMO) rules for silencers and so 
on.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn, 
Playtester, Modern Firepower.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:50:39PM +1000
References: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com> <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020424093444.A12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:50:39PM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Fundamental rights pertain only to things that you may not have taken
> from you.

I like the way P.J. O'Rourke phrases it: a right is something which
does not take from anyone else.  One has a right to freedom of
religion--until one starts practicing human sacrifice.  One has a
right to freedom of speech--until one incites a riot.  One has a right
to freedom of armament--until one attacks another.  One has a right to
privacy--until one starts hiding bodies.  One has a right to enjoy
whatever particular perversion tickles one's fancy--unless it's rape.
And so on.

None of these impinge upon anyone else.  A right _cannot_ impinge on
anyone else.  When it does, it ceases to be a right.  When something
is an impingement from the very beginning (e.g. handouts--the money
must be taken from someone), it cannot be a right at all.

> If it wasn't for the government's anti-incentives, I'd be working
> comfortably in a part-time job now instead of deciding whether I'd
> rather work full-time with buckets of cash and no time to spend it,
> or not work at all and have heaps of time to pursue open-source
> programming but not save any money.

In fairness, it's not purely governmental disincentives but also
corporate culture.  At least from where I stand most folks do not want
a three-months-a-year employee.  Which is a pity.

> An economy can *always* deal with more workers, if left to market
> forces.  If there's a surplus of any labour, skilled or unskilled,
> wages for those workers can drop until goods or services become viable
> to take up all the surplus.  However, quite understandable political
> interests and regulations get in the way in practice.

Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
out sewage.  I daresay I would.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:48:02 2002
Subject: Stench (was Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
In-Reply-To: <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>; from cdpratt@gatecom.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:25AM -0400
References: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20020424094725.B12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:25AM -0400, Christopher Pratt wrote:
> 
> There used to be this show on TV about Vietnam (I'm sure that somebody
> remembers it), and I remember a particular episode where the platoon was
> going to take an attractive female new reporter on patrol with them.  All
> the guys in the platoon showered, shaved, and slapped on the colone so they
> would look good when the woman arrived, and the platoon sergant chewed them
> out for it...

Judging by my father's tales of the Navy--back when it was a man's
navy--they probably figured it was well worth it.  Heck, I know from
Scout camp that a few days makes the one girl in camp the most
beautiful woman in the world.  I can only image that after some months
out the effect becomes rather more pronounced.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <OF113CE2E0.677F0151-ON85256BA5.00569E86@pheaa.org>







>Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
>willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
>out sewage.  I daresay I would.

True but because there are so few people willing to do it i bet the pay for
workers to do that job is really good 8P one of the things i believe is a
factor in how you get paid is the number of people able or willing to do
the job. Lots of people want to be basketball stars but very few are able
to play basketball at that level of ability. Lots of people would rather
make 15 bucks an hour instead of 5 but very few are willing to clean sewers
to get it.

anyway hasta

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400
References: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> 
> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
> aged and infirm.  

I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?

People who cannot work are another matter.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In the UNIX world, being dependent on a GUI is the same thing as not
being a sysadmin.                                        --BigZaphod

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:58:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:58:10 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <3CC748AA.24912.8066F4@localhost>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>

At 12:07 AM 4/25/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
> > for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
> > withstanding!
>
>The way cigarette smoke clings is one of the reasons I seldom go to
>pubs these days. It's also way we used to try and get all the smokers
>assigned to other sections before an exercise (that and the fact that
>smoker's cough is not a good thing to be having in a tactical
>situation).

The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people 
having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for 
days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by 
smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.

ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 10:00:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 09:00:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>; from mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:20:51PM +0100
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <20020424095613.D12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:20:51PM +0100, Matthew Bond wrote:
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 10:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 24 09:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <F2090Q5B71GmFs40SIq0000224a@hotmail.com>

From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)

     "Economics? If Steward-0 is six weeks F/T at Chez Ronaldo's, then
there's going to be lots of those people available. As it happens I 
subscribe to the "spaceship pilots are going to be quite common,
actually" school but the relatively specialized (spaceship) skills are still 
going to have greater market value through rarity."


Mr. Hudson,

     Yes, most likely economics or the usual human "we'll muddle through" 
and "it's good enough" attitudes.  It's only a week after all, you can get 
something good to eat, or sleep in a clean room, or whatever after we reach 
our next port.

     "OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than
Pilot-3 or Engineering-3 - those latter don't clearly affect the bottom 
line, after all."

     Most definitely.  Here in the Biggest Little and in many other locales, 
restaurants advertise the chefs they have on staff.  There is a constant 
struggle to lure "names" away from your competitors and hold onto those you 
have.  Naturally for ever heavy hitter, there are dozens of third assistant 
bottle washers.
     If I were GMing today (alas), I'd most certainly present the PCs with 
an NPC super-duper-steward.  That fellow would ask for more pay and be a bit 
of a prima-donna to handle, but he would also fill the cabins with high 
passengers and have high skilled, low wage NPC crewmen begging the PCs to 
sign on.  Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he 
needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to 
insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.

PC - "Cilantro!??!  Just where in hades are we going to find cilantro on 
Roup?  Good Sweet Strephon, Melmotte, cilantro?!"

Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop 
for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze 
baronne merde?"


     Sincerely,
     Larsen
>
>   Steven Hudson
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 11:02:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 10:02:06 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>; from gridlore@mindspring.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <3CC748AA.24912.8066F4@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020424110133.E12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also
> people having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

So you make sure they're not addicts--you don't forbid them to smoke,
period.  Or you allow them other forms of nicotine: chewing tobacco,
while it has a distinctive odour, I don't think is as strong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`You know, there's a word for people who
 think that everyone is out to get them...'
`Yes! Perceptive!'           --Woody Allen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 11:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr 24 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEGDDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Hey, good plot device. Your team has been assigned to popularize tobacco use
among young Vargr to reduce their olfactory effectiveness should they decide
to join the other side in the brewing dissatisfaction with the current
Imperial borders.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for
> days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by
> smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.
>
> ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 12:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Apr 24 11:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus> <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net> <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com> <200204240037330379.D4645864@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CC6F5FF.5070407@telocity.com>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

>>Hunter,
>>
>>The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
>>concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
>>printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
>>that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
>>likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.
>>
>>Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
>>into a single product for your Aide line?
>>
>
>It depends on what changes would be needed for a specific on-screen version.
>
Nothing big, I don't think.  The problem I have with the standard layout 
is that the page length is greater than the screen height at a readable 
resolution. When I go to full page mode, the resolution on my 19" 
monitor is something like 80%, and my tired old eyes can't handle that. 
<g> On smaller monitors, say a laptop, it would be even worse.  But when 
I set the resolution to a nice reading size, I only get a half to 
two-thirds of the page on the screen. Because of the two column format, 
I then have scroll up and down on every page. Scrolling up and down like 
that is a regular pain, especially when charts and tables are involved.

I can think of a couple of "easy" fixes, first if you provided a single 
column format, then it wouldn't really matter if the page length 
exceeded the screen height, as I would only have to scroll down as I 
read.  Alternatively, and a better (but most likely more difficult 
approach)  would be to reduce the page lengths by about half, then each 
page would fit on the screen in comfortable reading resolution.

Hunter, I don't know if either approach would qualify as easy, but 
consideration for something like that would be most appreciated by this 
member of your market.

Please, note I'm not suggesting you change the format for the 
printer-friendly version, that looks very nice. It's just that also 
having a screen-friendly version would be nice, too.

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 12:24:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Apr 24 11:24:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
>
> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]
>
>> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they'
>> wanted to trial in  the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras
were linked
>> to a database containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to
[deletion]
>> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
>> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of
>> 10,000 bodies would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals
>> free to go about  their crimes...
>

Matthew Bond replied:
>As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
>etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
>flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
>or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
>bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
>their identity will be free to go about their business.

I think you've both misstated what it means.  The CCTV will look at all
persons in the mall.  It will misidentify 4% of them.  If 10,000 persons are
scanned, 200 non-criminals will be wrongly identified as criminals and 200
criminals will be wrongly identified as non-criminals.

Jeff's error was to apply the 4% to the population of the city; only the
population being scanned by CCTV is at issue.  (That may, of course, be the
entire population of the city.)  Matthew's error was to apply the 4% only to
the people flagged for police attention.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 13:08:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 24 12:08:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHMEALCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

The only real PC floppy drive compatibility issues relate to the 5-1/4 in
floppies when using the same media between 360KB and 1.2MB drives. Although
a 1.2MB drive can write both 360KB and 1.2MB disks, a serious problem may
occur if the 1.2MB drive erases or writes to a disk previously formatted
with a 360KB drive and the data is then attempted to be read from a 360KB
drive. This will cause random data read errors due to the fact that the
1.2MB drive head is narrower than the 360KB drive head. Thus when the 360KB
drive reads the 1.2MB drive data from the disk, it inadvertently GLEANS the
previous data written by the original 360KB drive.

-Shawn R Sears-
(MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, A+, N+, CCNA)

CCNP Pending!  :-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 13:13:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 12:13:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423190649.00cb5d28@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20424.111826.4l6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I just finished reading Coventry.  Coventry was his "your right to swing 
> your fist ends at someone else's nose" system.
> That was America after the Second Revolution, that was civilization.
> If you rejected Coventry or were denied Coventry, you were sent to the 
> walled off section where the strong ruled the weak.

No. *Coventry* was where you got sent if you rejected the *Covenant*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 13:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 24 12:23:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231147070.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEAMCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> > >
> > > I don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
> > > backgammon on the Metro.
> >
> > Ah, but there's also solitaire.
> >


For $399 you can get one with a built in cell phone, wireless message
service, email, and web browser

www.handspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:02:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:02:12 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people

>having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

Great. Give people one more reason not to reenlist. When I was in the
Marines the smoking rate was easily over 50%, at least among grunts. This
was back in the 80s, of course, so I imagine this has gone down some. 
As far as people having nic fits not being useful in combat, I wonder how
the millions of smoking combat veterans of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam would
feel about that.
We almost had a base-wide mutiny when North Carolina upped the drinking age
from 19 to 21 without a grandfather clause.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 3:00 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #438 - 7 msgs


Send TML mailing list submissions to
	tml@travellercentral.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: smells (Douglas Berry)
   2. Re: Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack") (Robert A. Uhl)
   3. Re: Re: stewards (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
   4. Re: smells (Robert A. Uhl)
   5. RE: smells (Swordy)
   6. Re: Traveller's Aide #1 (Eris Reddoch)
   7. RE: Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack") (Glenn M. Goffin)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:52:58 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] smells
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 12:07 AM 4/25/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
> > for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
> > withstanding!
>
>The way cigarette smoke clings is one of the reasons I seldom go to
>pubs these days. It's also way we used to try and get all the smokers
>assigned to other sections before an exercise (that and the fact that
>smoker's cough is not a good thing to be having in a tactical
>situation).

The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people 
having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for 
days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by 
smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.

ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:56:13 -0600
From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:20:51PM +0100, Matthew Bond wrote:
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.

--__--__--

Message: 3
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: stewards
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:26:50 +0000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)

     "Economics? If Steward-0 is six weeks F/T at Chez Ronaldo's, then
there's going to be lots of those people available. As it happens I 
subscribe to the "spaceship pilots are going to be quite common,
actually" school but the relatively specialized (spaceship) skills are still

going to have greater market value through rarity."


Mr. Hudson,

     Yes, most likely economics or the usual human "we'll muddle through" 
and "it's good enough" attitudes.  It's only a week after all, you can get 
something good to eat, or sleep in a clean room, or whatever after we reach 
our next port.

     "OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than
Pilot-3 or Engineering-3 - those latter don't clearly affect the bottom 
line, after all."

     Most definitely.  Here in the Biggest Little and in many other locales,

restaurants advertise the chefs they have on staff.  There is a constant 
struggle to lure "names" away from your competitors and hold onto those you 
have.  Naturally for ever heavy hitter, there are dozens of third assistant 
bottle washers.
     If I were GMing today (alas), I'd most certainly present the PCs with 
an NPC super-duper-steward.  That fellow would ask for more pay and be a bit

of a prima-donna to handle, but he would also fill the cabins with high 
passengers and have high skilled, low wage NPC crewmen begging the PCs to 
sign on.  Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he

needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to 
insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.

PC - "Cilantro!??!  Just where in hades are we going to find cilantro on 
Roup?  Good Sweet Strephon, Melmotte, cilantro?!"

Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop 
for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze 
baronne merde?"


     Sincerely,
     Larsen
>
>   Steven Hudson
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:01:33 -0600
From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] smells
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also
> people having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

So you make sure they're not addicts--you don't forbid them to smoke,
period.  Or you allow them other forms of nicotine: chewing tobacco,
while it has a distinctive odour, I don't think is as strong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`You know, there's a word for people who
 think that everyone is out to get them...'
`Yes! Perceptive!'           --Woody Allen

--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] smells
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:21:27 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hey, good plot device. Your team has been assigned to popularize tobacco use
among young Vargr to reduce their olfactory effectiveness should they decide
to join the other side in the brewing dissatisfaction with the current
Imperial borders.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for
> days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by
> smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.
>
> ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.



--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:14:23 -0500
From: Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hunter Gordon wrote:

>>Hunter,
>>
>>The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
>>concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
>>printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
>>that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
>>likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.
>>
>>Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
>>into a single product for your Aide line?
>>
>
>It depends on what changes would be needed for a specific on-screen
version.
>
Nothing big, I don't think.  The problem I have with the standard layout 
is that the page length is greater than the screen height at a readable 
resolution. When I go to full page mode, the resolution on my 19" 
monitor is something like 80%, and my tired old eyes can't handle that. 
<g> On smaller monitors, say a laptop, it would be even worse.  But when 
I set the resolution to a nice reading size, I only get a half to 
two-thirds of the page on the screen. Because of the two column format, 
I then have scroll up and down on every page. Scrolling up and down like 
that is a regular pain, especially when charts and tables are involved.

I can think of a couple of "easy" fixes, first if you provided a single 
column format, then it wouldn't really matter if the page length 
exceeded the screen height, as I would only have to scroll down as I 
read.  Alternatively, and a better (but most likely more difficult 
approach)  would be to reduce the page lengths by about half, then each 
page would fit on the screen in comfortable reading resolution.

Hunter, I don't know if either approach would qualify as easy, but 
consideration for something like that would be most appreciated by this 
member of your market.

Please, note I'm not suggesting you change the format for the 
printer-friendly version, that looks very nice. It's just that also 
having a screen-friendly version would be nice, too.

Eris


--__--__--

Message: 7
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
To: "Traveller-Digest" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:12:42 -0700
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
>
> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]
>
>> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they'
>> wanted to trial in  the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras
were linked
>> to a database containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to
[deletion]
>> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
>> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of
>> 10,000 bodies would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals
>> free to go about  their crimes...
>

Matthew Bond replied:
>As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
>etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
>flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
>or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
>bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
>their identity will be free to go about their business.

I think you've both misstated what it means.  The CCTV will look at all
persons in the mall.  It will misidentify 4% of them.  If 10,000 persons are
scanned, 200 non-criminals will be wrongly identified as criminals and 200
criminals will be wrongly identified as non-criminals.

Jeff's error was to apply the 4% to the population of the city; only the
population being scanned by CCTV is at issue.  (That may, of course, be the
entire population of the city.)  Matthew's error was to apply the 4% only to
the people flagged for police attention.

--Glenn



--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:14:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:14:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Who are we?
Message-ID: <20020424.130435.-189813.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

FWIW I saved all of them, 75 including Dominic's.

Turokan

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:36:26 -0400 "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> writes:
> Citizens of the TML at http://www.downport.com/traveller/TML.shtml 
> has been
> around a few years. I'm getting ready to do a periodic update if 
> anyone want
> s to add /delete / modify any or their bio info on there.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
> > --- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> > > Is anyone archiving these? ;-)
> >
> > I think I have most of them, but I haven't had tome to
> > sort through them yet.
> 
> 

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:21:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:21:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <20424.121604.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> For anyone that might know the answer:
>
> While working on my Mire landgrab, I have come up with a question that I 
> hope someone on the TML might know an answer for.  (Preferably a correct 
> one.  :-) )
>
> What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain in 
> order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?  The reason I ask is that Mire 
> is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a distance of .2 AU.  By default, the 
> next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.
>   Can that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without 
> affecting Mire's orbit?

It's not so much a matter of "how close" as the ratio of the orbital
periods. If two bodies have orbits such that one's period is a simple
multiple of the other, then you get *bad* effects. 

As an example, say there was a planet orbiting the sun at a distance
that would give it a 2 year period.

Every two years, earth would give it a "tug" towards the sun at the
same point it it's orbit. After a while, it'd be in a different orbit.

Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
of the period.

So, for my example above, a planet with twice the period of Earth:

D^2 = 2^3
D^2 = 8
D = sqrt(8)
D = 2.82 AU

For your planets, at .2 and .4 AU, if we call the period of the inner
planet 1, and the distance of the outer planet, 2 we get:

2^2 = P^3
4 = P^3
4^(1/3) = P 
1.59 = P

So the ratio of the periods is 1:1.59 and you *won't* get resonance
problems.

.2 AU is still 18.6 million miles (30 million km) so they aren't
exactly close...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:24:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:24:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <OF113CE2E0.677F0151-ON85256BA5.00569E86@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <20424.124156.7n8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
>>willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
>>out sewage.  I daresay I would.

Sometiomes it's what you are *able* to do. Right now, I could get by
with a fast food job. Trouble is, they involve standing for long
periods. Which I *cannot* do.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:27:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:27:27 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20424.123910.5K5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>>
>> >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
>> 
>> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
>> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
>> aged and infirm.  
>
> I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
> that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
> at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?

Ah, but what about one that lets you "survive"? Not comfortable, just
"tolerable". No luxuries unless you decide to do without something
else...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:44:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:44:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <20424.124156.7n8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <01a701c1ebcf$03eb6280$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Not me, please give me the garbage, sewer cleaning job, as it pays well. the
problem is that so many service industry job are being created. while it
causes unemployment to go down it also means that you have to work 2 jobs
and 60 hours a week to keep a roof over your head. me and my wife work, and
I am trying to go to school to get my degree and certification for Cisco so
I can get a better paying job so my wife can go to school and hopefully get
a better paying job, the problem is, that I am almost afraid to say I will
not be as successful as my parents , so much for the American dream
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism


> In mail you write:
>
> >>Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
> >>willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
> >>out sewage.  I daresay I would.
>
> Sometiomes it's what you are *able* to do. Right now, I could get by
> with a fast food job. Trouble is, they involve standing for long
> periods. Which I *cannot* do.
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:49:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:49:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20424.123910.5K5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020424163654.00b94210@urbin.net>

At 12:39 PM 4/24/02 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> > >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> >> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled
> >> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The
> >> aged and infirm.
> > I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> > able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
> > that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
> > at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> > another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?
>Ah, but what about one that lets you "survive"? Not comfortable, just
>"tolerable". No luxuries unless you decide to do without something
>else...

$20,000 a year won't even get you "tolerable" in NYC.

In Mobile, Alabama, it's on the plus side of "reasonably"

Where you're at has a lot to do with it.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424135724.009f6460@mindspring.com>

At 03:56 PM 4/24/02 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> >The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people
>
> >having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.
>
>Great. Give people one more reason not to reenlist. When I was in the
>Marines the smoking rate was easily over 50%, at least among grunts. This
>was back in the 80s, of course, so I imagine this has gone down some.
>As far as people having nic fits not being useful in combat, I wonder how
>the millions of smoking combat veterans of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam would
>feel about that.

Well, we learned that in Vietnam at least the VC often located US OPs by 
the smell of cigarette smoke.  Having addicts in the trenches does not aid 
in the mission.

>We almost had a base-wide mutiny when North Carolina upped the drinking age
>from 19 to 21 without a grandfather clause.

I was at Benning when that happened. The common reaction was "who cares" 
and the clubs on VD Drive never bothered to check IDs.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>
References: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com> <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com> <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020425073936.A11272@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Hmm. Makes NZ's situation look even worse than it is. Our
> superannuation system was supposed to be a form of government
> subsidised savings,

That was what Australia's old-age pension used to be.  Although the
funds weren't lost, by the time the contributors reached retirement
age, the government had introduced assets and independent income tests
to prevent many of the original people from accessing their "savings",
and the original income taxes that funded the scheme had long since
been legislatively disconnected from the pension.

Now we've got compulsory superannuation.  Oh yes, it looks very
attractive at first -- heavy tax breaks, the government will match any
voluntary contributions up to a certain percentage of your income --
but I doubt I'll be allowed to touch it by the time I'm 55, ... no, 60
..., no, 65.  If there's anything left of it after slowly increasing
tax rates, that is.

Oops!  Not much relation to Traveller here.  Sorry!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC74404.23217.6E3D9E@localhost>
References: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700 <3CC74404.23217.6E3D9E@localhost>
Message-ID: <3cc920e4.11435731@post.demon.co.uk>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:

>If the wealthy want those they pass on the street to not offend their=20
>noses, why shouldn't they contribute towards the lower orders hygene?

Agreed - although I was more concerned about typhoid and cholera...
(and probably new, improved antibiotic-resistant cholera, too). =20

It's all about enlightened self-interest:  it's to my personal benefit
that everybody in my community has access to decent sanitation, even
the poorest.  I'm willing to pay for that through higher taxes.
(though I'd draw the line at filling swimming pools or watering
20-acre lawns;  you shouldn't get subsidies for that...<g>).

=46or the same reason I support giving subsidies to public transport,
even by people who never use it - because they still benefit from
clearer roads, more parking spaces and less pollution.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8ecd76ee706@[143.232.119.186]>

At 11:53 PM -0700 4/23/02, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote
>
>>  What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a
>>  fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who think
>>  they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to complain
>>  that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and agitate
>>  for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact that lead
>>  to such a system in the first place, since the rationale that supports
>>  it can be easily used to support increases, and whether society wants
>>  to try and "buy" them off).
>
>I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and
>that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.

So those of us who work are expected to make sure every gets money 
regardless of what they do?  I think that is both morally wrong (what 
right do other peole have on the fruit of my efforts) and unworkable 
(such system have always become burdened by those who abuse them).

>
>>  There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family (?).
>>   It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those who
>>  went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this is
>>  the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of
>>  "non-working" class in Europe....
>
>Given how rapidly automation is advancing (much modern office
>work will be obsolete in under 20 years), we are almost certainly
>going to have a combination of increasing GNPs *and* an
>increasing number of people out of work in the entire First World. 
>Why should they not share in the bounty of an economy that no
>longer has need for (and in fact, likely cannot deal with) for
>everyone to be employed.

If you want to have a system for those who can't find work that is 
one thing.  But that is a far cry from guaranteed income.

And this whole "technology will create a class of people with nothing 
to do" is nothing more than a recycling of the Ludditism of the 
Industrial Revolution.  The money saved by automation creates demand 
for more products and services by those with the money which creates 
jobs.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:52:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:52:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <20424.121604.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com> <20424.121604.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020425074906.B11272@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
> of the period.

Oops, it's the other way around :)

(2 pi / T)^2 = G M / R^3
so T^2 = k R^3, where k = (2 pi)^2 / (G M)


> .2 AU is still 18.6 million miles (30 million km) so they aren't
> exactly close...

Indeed.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC74249.9558.677A81@localhost>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <3CC74249.9558.677A81@localhost>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8ecd9104997@[143.232.119.186]>

At 11:39 PM +1200 4/24/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 23 Apr 2002 at 17:26, David P. Summers wrote:
>
>>  A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more people living on
>>  public assistance.  (It may not be 50%, but it will depend on what
>>  the level is set at).
>
>Curiously even though this is effectively the case in this country
>unemployment and beneficiary numbers are more dependant on other
>factors than on how much money is paid out to 'dole bludgers' and I
>very much doubt that this would change unless quite a lot more money
>was paid to them.

I don't know if New Zeland is a small, relatively isolated, country 
that is an exception (though I must say I have my doubts) but from 
the Roman Empire, to the Soviet Union, to European welfare states we 
have seen enough to that if they don't have to work, a significant 
fraction of society will go for the free ride.

>
>>  What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a
>>  fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who
>>  think they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to
>>  complain that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and
>>  agitate for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact
>>  that lead to such a system in the first place, since the rationale
>>  that supports it can be easily used to support increases, and whether
>>  society wants to try and "buy" them off).
>>
>>  There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family
>>  (?).  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those
>>  who went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this
>>  is the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of
>>  "non-working" class in Europe....
>
>Until the economy is in a state where the demand for labour is such
>that industries are short of it and people are still refusing to work
>it really doesn't matter if some (or most) of the people not working
>aren't because they can't be bothered.

Of course when jobs come along, why should they be bothered then?  A 
lot of the issue was the _contempt_ for the idea that one should be 
expected to work for a living....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 16:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed Apr 24 15:01:03 2002
Subject: Beer (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <20020424123206.EE8A027A4A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008b01c1ebdb$e8dac0a0$e65d8690@computer>

> From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> As a New Zealander I just had to make that dig. Can't have the Aussies
> thinking they brew better beer than we.

Actually, the best beer in the world is brewed in Australia:  Guinness. : )

Most British and Irish beers brewed in Australia have higher alcohol
contents than the original versions, to allow them to compete in the market
here.

I actually prefer Kilkenny to Guinness.  I drink different beers in
different pubs.  In one, I tend to drink Boddington's.  In others, I drink
good old XXXX (brewed in Brisbane), with VB (from Melbourne) an "if all else
fails" option.  The last two are basically cat urine, but drinkable in
sufficient quantities.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 16:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 24 15:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Question on planetary orbits
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424234029.00ab4ef0@mail.pi.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

 >It's not so much a matter of "how close" as the ratio of the orbital
 >periods. If two bodies have orbits such that one's period is a simple
 >multiple of the other, then you get *bad* effects.

Not necessarily. Gliese 876's two known planets are in a 2:1 resonance, 
both are massive and on short period orbits. I think HD82943 is another 
example. Jupiter's inner three moons are in a 2:1 resonance series, a 
Laplace resonance. Resonance can provide stability to a planetary or lunar 
system, and it may be a not uncommon feature to have planets captured into 
2:1 and 3:1 resonances, based upon simulations of orbital migration.

 >Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
 >of the period.

Keplers third law is that the square of the period is proportional to the 
cube of the distance.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 16:37:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 24 15:37:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020424.145416.-149337.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:38:27 -0400 Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> At 12:39 PM 4/24/02 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >In mail you write:
> > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> > > >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> > >> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled
> > >> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The
> > >> aged and infirm.
> > > I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> > > able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  
> Except
> > > that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me 
> live
> > > at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> > > another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am 
> lazy?
> >Ah, but what about one that lets you "survive"? Not comfortable, 
> just
> >"tolerable". No luxuries unless you decide to do without something
> >else...
> 
> $20,000 a year won't even get you "tolerable" in NYC.
> 
> In Mobile, Alabama, it's on the plus side of "reasonably"
> 
> Where you're at has a lot to do with it.
> 

Well, I hate to butt in here, but I'm a prime example of the above
conversation.

I'm disabled as you all know, pulling in roughly $17.5k via S.S. and my
disability pension. My wife doesn't work, and must take care of me. We
were basically kicked out of the SF Bay area, and now live in an
"afordable" housing apartment in Stockton with our 21 year old son who
works part time, and helped us qualify for our rent.  Tolerable is barely
the word for it. After our 25th wedding aniversary next month, we may
divorce just so that my wife can receive SSI. If we do, then our life
here might be considered tolerable.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
Message-ID: <147.d7848aa.29f899cd@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/24/2002 2:04:39 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:

>Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for 
>days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by 
>smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.

That's why I never understood those commercials for [various products] to 
remove tobacco stains from the teeth. They usually take the following form:

"A: Have you quit smoking?
B: Uh . . . what do you think?
A: Your teeth are so white . . . "

I never understood this because in my experience just being in the same room 
with a smoker can make one's clothes _reek_ of tobacco for days. I could 
always tell when my brother gave up trying to quit, and when my nephew took 
up pot on a regular basis.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <147.d7848aa.29f899cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>

Try being allergic to cig smoke.
It makes being out in public very unhappy, especially when I don't sneeze,
but develope the all over body itch. VERY nasty.

Then again I do a lot of hiking and I know that folks in the field develop a
special smell that they don't notice till they clean up. At least we act
like we don't notice ;)

TV

--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <20020424095613.D12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250924020.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Robert:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

 The incorrect response is "Sorry Man I've only got a pipe."

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:59:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:59:36 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <20020424110133.E12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250925440.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Robert:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> >
> > The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also
> > people having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.
>
> So you make sure they're not addicts--you don't forbid them to smoke,
> period.  Or you allow them other forms of nicotine: chewing tobacco,
> while it has a distinctive odour, I don't think is as strong.

 Yes in the field we did only eat native food. As the VC could smell us
miles away. All the nice products that the service present to us have
distinctive smells. From shaving materials to the gun oil. Making us
olafactory targets.

 As for smoking, this is a touchy subject. i happen to be pro smoking. But
if it is a way soon to beat the draft. Well I know a lot of people that
will take it up. A mess more that would have used it back in 68. <G>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:06:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:06:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
> Matthew Bond replied:
> >As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> >etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> >flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> >or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> >bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> >their identity will be free to go about their business.
>
> I think you've both misstated what it means.  The CCTV will look at all
> persons in the mall.  It will misidentify 4% of them.  If 10,000 persons
are
> scanned, 200 non-criminals will be wrongly identified as criminals and 200
> criminals will be wrongly identified as non-criminals.
>
> Jeff's error was to apply the 4% to the population of the city; only the
> population being scanned by CCTV is at issue.  (That may, of course, be
the
> entire population of the city.)  Matthew's error was to apply the 4% only
to
> the people flagged for police attention.
>
> --Glenn

Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in
the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database? It
is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken as one in 25
of the members of the database will be misidentified... If there was only
one picture in the database is there a 4% chance that any given person will
be identified as it? Or much more likely, if there was only one person in
the database 4% of the time the system would report 'no match' when
analysing a picture of that individual.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250925440.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link writes:

>  As for smoking, this is a touchy subject. i happen to be pro smoking. But
> if it is a way soon to beat the draft. Well I know a lot of people that
> will take it up. A mess more that would have used it back in 68. <G>

Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine they'd
just draft you anyway and force you to quit.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHMEALCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Shawn:

Comments below quoted.

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Shawn R Sears wrote:

> The only real PC floppy drive compatibility issues relate to the 5-1/4 in
> floppies when using the same media between 360KB and 1.2MB drives. Although
> a 1.2MB drive can write both 360KB and 1.2MB disks, a serious problem may
> occur if the 1.2MB drive erases or writes to a disk previously formatted
> with a 360KB drive and the data is then attempted to be read from a 360KB
> drive. This will cause random data read errors due to the fact that the
> 1.2MB drive head is narrower than the 360KB drive head. Thus when the 360KB
> drive reads the 1.2MB drive data from the disk, it inadvertently GLEANS the
> previous data written by the original 360KB drive.

 All of the above is interesting. But not my main Traveller theme part.
For example <composing a reply to a prior msg with this topic> The entire
premise above is dealing with the measurements of the micro$haft style of
disks and formatting. i use Commodore exclusively. First we measure in
blocks 4 = 1kb. The single sided drives read thes disk at 664 C= blocks.
This is the 1541 disk drive. If I can do the math right that is 166kb Then
the 1571 dreive is a double head reader. Now the Comodore built 3 1/2"
drive did the double sided double density disks and formatted at 800kb
free. 790kb free if formatted in the Geos/Wheels OS environment. CMD's
FD-2000 does the DD/DS 3 1/2" disks but also the high density disks and
formats them at 1.6MB. Commodore never made a high density 5 1/4" drive.
Any one want a collection of the HD 5 1/4" disks? Got a mess of them some
factory. Make great targets. <G>

 Anyway what my Traveller computer premise is about is not only different
eras of computers of the same platform. But different standards amongst
the history of the Imperium and the subjective worlds. From multiple
companies in the Imperium. All the ay to the different tech level worlds
that have some sort of Imperial contact.

 Now then all tat said. We have talked about some converting things. using
what I know which is a samttering of the techy stuff for the Commodore
world. i have tools that allow translation on my system. Allowing me to
translate from Pet to Ascii and back again. So that part is covered for
text. I also have tools that allow scaling of JPGs and GIFs. These at
videocam. That allow for my screen size. I have tools to pas along to the
windoze and Amiga users that allow the text translation for my preferred
DT <Desk Top> system Geos. Even the ability to make .D64 image files for
the emulator users.

 OK what I am looking at on this topic is the same type of things in tols
and utils for converting different standards and platforms in the 3I.
Based and projecting from the exisitng styles we have now. Putting that
into the CT game.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250956500.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Anthony:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine they'd
> just draft you anyway and force you to quit.

 i don't know about the draft. The last I heard it takes a fast vote in
congress to reinstate it. On this I am not certain. I personally am way to
old to be drafted. But they can recall me if needed. ALmost happened in
Desert Storm. But smokers that fight the quit part would most likely be
discharged under the unfit for military service clauses. Which I
understand there are many classifications for that now. But I have been
out of the military since 71. Oh FWIW I don't smoke cigs, being a pipe
smoker for 40+ years. Nope don'T want to quit and my O2 rate last year was
99% at my physical. <G>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250956500.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019696542.4978.ajackson@ping>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link writes:
> Hoi Anthony:
> 
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> > Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine
> > they'd just draft you anyway and force you to quit.
> 
>  i don't know about the draft. The last I heard it takes a fast vote in
> congress to reinstate it.
Sure, congress is theoretically able to reinstate the draft.  They're just
vanishingly unlikely to want to.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 19:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 18:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425073936.A11272@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC800BE.5191.7D9315@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 7:39, Timothy Little wrote:

> That was what Australia's old-age pension used to be.  Although the
> funds weren't lost, by the time the contributors reached retirement
> age, the government had introduced assets and independent income tests
> to prevent many of the original people from accessing their "savings",
> and the original income taxes that funded the scheme had long since
> been legislatively disconnected from the pension.

Sounds like the same old story.
 
> Now we've got compulsory superannuation.  Oh yes, it looks very
> attractive at first -- heavy tax breaks, the government will match any
> voluntary contributions up to a certain percentage of your income --
> but I doubt I'll be allowed to touch it by the time I'm 55, ... no, 60
> ..., no, 65.  If there's anything left of it after slowly increasing
> tax rates, that is.

I think that's where we're headed. The previous government had this 
system where you could set up your fund with a commercial provider, and 
therefore it should be safe from the government. Of course you're then 
relying on the provider being around when you retire, and the terms and 
conditions not being quietly changed. And of course you're also having 
to pay for the profits of the provider out of your interest.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 19:15:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 18:15:58 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>
References: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400
Message-ID: <3CC800BD.22553.7D928D@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 9:54, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >
> > >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> > 
> > Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
> > (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
> > aged and infirm.  
> 
> I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
> that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
> at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?

As long as there are more people willing to work then there are slots 
available, why not? By not working you're accepting a lower income in 
order to make the slot you'd have taken open for another who wants it 
more than you. This works until there's a labour shortage and people 
are still not working, at which point continuing to pay non-workers 
will be a disaster.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <200204250229.g3P2T6G09549@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: stewards
...
>"OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than Pilot-3
...
>     If I were GMing today (alas), I'd most certainly present the PCs with 
>an NPC super-duper-steward.  That fellow would ask for more pay and be a bit 
>of a prima-donna to handle, but he would also fill the cabins with high 
>passengers and have high skilled, low wage NPC crewmen begging the PCs to 
>sign on.  Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he 
>needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to 
>insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.

  Why an NPC? It seems like a great excuse for not being
too useful in the firefights that the D&D'ers keep trying 
to provoke. It might even be combined with some social
skills or a problem-solving approach :)

  But if an NPC, then the occasional review of "Fawlty
Towers" should be considered!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 20:32:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 19:32:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person
> in 25 in the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of
> the database?

That's far better than the failure rate of many previous systems.


> It is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken
> as one in 25 of the members of the database will be misidentified.

If you'd ever done any image-recognition work, you'd know that a 4%
false-positive rate is extraordinarily good for "in the field" runs,
at an acceptable false-negative rate.

What you seem to be saying is that the system has a 4% false-negative
rate and a false-positive rate somewhere less than 0.1%.

If that's really what they meant, either the system designers are the
best geniuses this side of Andromeda, or they're snake-oil salesmen.
I'm betting on the latter, if they're really claiming what you say.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 21:35:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed Apr 24 20:35:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1ec0a$1bc04ca0$0b01a8c0@duck>

Thank you all for the answers.  Just a little more explanation:

While working on my Mire landgrab, I ran its configuration through Heaven
and Earth.  When I did that, I got a really interesting system, which
included three planets (in addition to Mire) with a type "6" atmosphere and
a > 1 hydrosphere.  Too bad the star is a measley K6 V!  (Actually it was
two planets and one moon, and the moon orbits one of these planets.)

Anyway, I really wanted to make the second planet (the one without the moon)
habitable (i.e. really cold, not frozen solid like I got in the first
place).  So I had to start fudging numbers.  Actually, I doubt that it would
still be warm enough where I put it, but I figure it should be close enough.
:-)

BTW, that is the one main frustration I had with H&E:  it forces the orbit
distances.  So, orbit 0 is *always* .2 AU, orbit 1 is *always* .4 AU.  This
means that for the smaller suns that nice warm planet from canon discription
is really frozen solid.  (Either that or the planet ends up being too close
and is an inferno with a "base" climate temperature of 45+ C.)  The program
has no way to tweak the orbital distance.  The only way I could simulate
that was to vary the size of the star until I got close to the temperatures
I needed.

In case anyone is actually curious as to what I have so far, the description
is at http://www.caddocourt.com/traveller/mire/ .  (If you go one level
higher to http://www.caddocourt.com/traveller you can see my Daryen page and
my other landgrab attempts.)  It is still very much a work in progress, but
it is starting to take shape.

Again, thanks for the help.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:06:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:06:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
References: <F2090Q5B71GmFs40SIq0000224a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC77F60.88D8F9C8@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
>
>    <snip> Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he
> needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to
> insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.
>
> PC - "Cilantro!??!  Just where in hades are we going to find cilantro on
> Roup?  Good Sweet Strephon, Melmotte, cilantro?!"
>
> Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop
> for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze
> baronne merde?"
>
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen

I've done this with a Vargar steward on my groups ship. Keeping her in fresh
meat is a real challenge at points. Especially since she insists on sharing it
all with the passengers and crew. Hadn't really thought of the ingredient angle.
Thanks Larsen.



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Sorry doesn't put thumbs on the hands, Marge.
                          -Homer Simpson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:09:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:09:59 2002
Subject: Beer (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <20020424123206.EE8A027A4A@mail.travellercentral.com> <008b01c1ebdb$e8dac0a0$e65d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CC77FE1.1580CF1F@premier.net>


Alan Bradley wrote:
> 
> > From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> > As a New Zealander I just had to make that dig. Can't have the Aussies
> > thinking they brew better beer than we.
> 
> Actually, the best beer in the world is brewed in Australia:  Guinness. : )
> 
> Most British and Irish beers brewed in Australia have higher alcohol
> contents than the original versions, to allow them to compete in the market
> here.

Ah, then 307 Ale would find a ready market in Australia:

http://www.tomsmithonline.com/lyrics/307ale.htm

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:25:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:25:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>

< snip debate on system accuracy >

More grist for the mill at:

http://www.visionics.com/faceit/faqs/recog.html

Keep in mind this is info from the company that sells the technology.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:30:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:30:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
In-Reply-To: <3CC77F60.88D8F9C8@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8ECD20F.58816%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/24/02 9:00 PM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

>> Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop
>> for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze
>> baronne merde?"
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> Larsen
> 
> I've done this with a Vargar steward on my groups ship. Keeping her in fresh
> meat is a real challenge at points. Especially since she insists on sharing it
> all with the passengers and crew. Hadn't really thought of the ingredient
> angle.
> Thanks Larsen.

I once ran an Aftermath campaign where the players were kept busy looking
for ingredients for an omelet by a deranged gourmand in return for some
penicillin.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:38:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:38:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <3CC73DFE.1550.56B779@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC785BE.E6ACFF88@premier.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> On 23 Apr 2002 at 13:04, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> > The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST
> > series is that everyone is an officer.
> 
> That didn't bother me in the slightest, seeing as there were often
> engineering officers doing what we'd have ratings employed at.
> Obviously the later Star Trek period saw a lot of 'job inflation' in
> the Federation. Probably some bureaucrat thought it'd help morale or
> recruitment if everyone in Starfleet got to be an officer.

I suspect that the rank inflation of the ST universe (and many other
fictional universes) has more to do with the observation that Robert
Heinlein (adroitly bringing the thread back to its title) made in _Job:
A Comedy of Justice_ that civilians automatically seem to equate
themselves with officers, regardless of the actual position the
civilians in question hold in the employment and/or social hierarchy.

One of the things that annoyed me most about Twilight: 2000 (second
edition) is that, according to the chargen rules, I did not exist. 
According to T2K (2e), only Military Intelligence officers could perform
interrogator duties; enlisted MI types were treated as equivalent to
Support branch (i.e., mechanics and the like).  As an enlisted
interrogator (MOS 97E4P) who currently has 18+ years of experience in
the field, I was (understandably, I think) quite put out by this chargen
rule, especially since very few MI commissioned officers in the US Army
_ever_ learn how to interrogate prisoners of war.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:46:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:46:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500
References: <147.d7848aa.29f899cd@aol.com> <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20020424223740.A14385@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
>
> Try being allergic to cig smoke.

That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
<http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.

Perhaps you're slightly asthmatic, or have other allergies which smoke
in generl triggers?


-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I have a love for coding.  I have a love for staying up for days at a
time living off of Tea and Cigarettes, doing nothing but wearing the
letters off of the keys in front of my computer.  My bills have a love
for being paid on time.                                 --Jace of Fuse!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:55:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:55:28 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:07:21PM -0700
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250925440.30393-100000@vcsweb.com> <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020424224232.B14385@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:07:21PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine they'd
> just draft you anyway and force you to quit.

I'd claim smoking is part of my philosophy (i.e. religion).
C.S. Lewis smoked, J.R.R. Tolkien smoked, G.K. Chesterton smoked, and
frankly I care more about the dust which clung to their heals than all
the words and thoughts of the Koops and Kesslers of this world.

Not that this has anything to do with military service.  Not being an
addict, I have gone for quite extended periods of time without
tobacco, when the sitution warranted.  No doubt I'll do so again.  So
I could quite cheerfully go into the bush for awhile, come out,
shower, shave, light a nice pipe and relax.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd' - Ian Lamb, age 3.5

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 23:03:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Wed Apr 24 22:03:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
Message-ID: <3CC74587.16615.16FC24A@localhost>

--Message-Boundary-12821
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body

heres the second in my series of conversions


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     File:  TL12 200,000-ton Kokirrak-class Dreadnought.htm
     Date:  24 Apr 2002, 23:52
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--Message-Boundary-12821--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 23:18:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 22:18:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> http://www.visionics.com/faceit/faqs/recog.html
> 
> Keep in mind this is info from the company that sells the technology.

Yep.  It's actually worse than I thought.  On internal comparison
tests on a standardised database, its best error sum is above 1%.  A
reasonable rule of thumb in image recognition, is that in typical
deployed conditions error rates (of both types) go up by at least an
order of magnitude over standardised test data.  That's assuming
no-one is actually trying to fool the system!

That means that if you want 90% detection of known criminals or
troublemakers, you'll have to put up with misidentifying *at least* 5%
of the general public as people in the database.  A rather small
shopping mall would have say 10000 people passing through in a day,
that's about 500 false alarms.

Worse still, the 'tails' of feature set detection lengthen in
realistically noisy data, which means that reducing the threshold has
less effect on error rates in real conditions than in standardized
data.  So while reducing the threshold by 5% may halve the
false-positive rate in test data, it may only reduce false-positives
by 30% in real data.  So you get double-hit by real noise: Not only do
your error rates go up, but your ability to reduce errors by reducing
the threshold for detection goes down.

Ignoring the likelihood that people are going to deliberately spoof
the system, let's say you want a false-positive rate of less than 1%
(100 innocent members of the public bothered per shopping mall per
day).  Judging by their own graphs, I'd be very surprised to see 50%
effectiveness at detecting known troublemakers in real conditions.

Including the fact that some of the people in the database *will* try
to avoid detection, I'd put the hit rate at more like 20%.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 23:36:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 24 22:36:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com> <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>

> Judging by their own graphs, I'd be very surprised to see 50%
> effectiveness at detecting known troublemakers in real conditions.
>
> Including the fact that some of the people in the database *will* try
> to avoid detection, I'd put the hit rate at more like 20%.
>

Given the current state of the art, how long do you think it will be before
the performance of this system is able to live up to the hype?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 00:10:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 24 23:10:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> >The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people
> >having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.
> Great. Give people one more reason not to reenlist. When I was in the
> Marines the smoking rate was easily over 50%, at least among grunts. This

Well, I wouldn't want to be in the field with smokers. It has no good
points, and many bad.

Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even farther with image
intensifiers. Also, you might want not to leave much stuff around, which
is quite hard if you have to remember collecting everything you smoke.

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 00:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Wed Apr 24 23:14:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <3CC6F5FF.5070407@telocity.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
 <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>
 <200204240037330379.D4645864@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3CC6F5FF.5070407@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <200204250108350264.D9A71D60@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/24/2002 at 1:14 PM Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>I can think of a couple of "easy" fixes, first if you provided a single 
>column format, then it wouldn't really matter if the page length 
>exceeded the screen height, as I would only have to scroll down as I 
>read.  Alternatively, and a better (but most likely more difficult 
>approach)  would be to reduce the page lengths by about half, then each 
>page would fit on the screen in comfortable reading resolution.
>
>Hunter, I don't know if either approach would qualify as easy, but 
>consideration for something like that would be most appreciated by this 
>member of your market.

Hmm. Its something I will definately look into. The main problem I see=
 though is we would have to layout the PDF twice for each edition. once for=
 a 'print' version and once for an 'on-screen' version. I'll have to talk=
 to Steve and see what he thinks it might add time-wise on his part to=
 handle it.

It would also be an interesting question to pose to those who buy the PDFs,=
 to see if there is a larger preference one way or another.

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 00:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 23:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com> <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020425163025.A12453@freeman.little-possums.net>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> Given the current state of the art, how long do you think it will be
> before the performance of this system is able to live up to the
> hype?

Same answer that I'd give to any other prediction about near future
technology; fusion power, paperless office, a machine able to
understand natural spoken language, house-cleaning robots, generally
available space tourism, and widespread acceptance of video phones and
electric cars: "20 years" :)

(Of course, most of these were "20 years" away in the 1960s...)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 01:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 00:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020420102803.C4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020420102803.C4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020425175119.A12598@freeman.little-possums.net>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Let 't' be the number of orbits (or fractional orbits).  Then
>   theta = 2 arctan ((1+e) tan(pi t) / sqrt(1-e^2)).  (I hope)

It looks like my hopes were dashed.  That's what I get for doing
orbital dynamics on an empty stomach!  The (hopefully *this* time)
correct formula is

pi t = arctan (sqrt(1-e^2) tan (theta/2) / (1+e))
       - (e sqrt(1-e^2) sin theta) / 2(1 + e cos theta) 

(If you forget the second line like I did, you get my incorrect
formula above).  Unfortunately this expression can't be simply solved
for theta like the previous one.  You can easily find the time for a
given position, but that's not very useful :)  You'll need to use a
numerical method to find the position at a given time.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020423183217.00ac19d8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEFBHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Jimmy Simpson wrote :

> IMHO, there was precisely 1 good episode of Galactica 
> 1980, "The Return of Starbuck".

Was that about a newly-reopened coffe franchise ?

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:47:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:47:57 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8eb83b1f99b@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAAEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :
> A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more
> people living on public assistance.  (It may not
> be 50%, but it will depend on what the level is set at).

I think the 200AD "Judge Dredd" series shows what such a society
would turn into.

(200AD has always been very good SF IMO, even if some of the
stories and characters were relatively puerile, it does explore
the issues, both social and technological like SF is supposed
to ).

Not only would people not work, but because of the lack of
workers, more and more things would have to be automated,
companies would find it harder to make a profit, and as part of
the circle, the number of available jobs would actually reduce to
the point where having more than one would become illegal.

> What is more, in approached like this the money is
> considered a fundamental "right".  This creates an
> entire class of people who think they have a right
> to expect to be supported.

This has happened in many "western" countries including New
Zealand, England, and Holland to name the ones that I'm
personally familiar with.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:50:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:50:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RPGs
In-Reply-To: <95.1b594c7e.29f6ba34@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :
> tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> > GDW, Chaosium, WRG, TSR, Flying Buffalo, Steve Jackson,
> > Steve Curtis, and many other primarily wargaming
> > companies were all in the process of adding fantasy
> > wargaming and roleplaying systems of various forms
> > to their wargames, largely due to the popularity
> > of "Lord of the Rings" at the time. These were based
> > originally on personalization details for their army
> > "generals" and "special figures", and also on the trend
> > toward small scale "skirmish" wargames where the individual
> > figures were heavily personalized and even given "character",
> > of which "Chainmail" was just one, and not the most
> > influential either.
>
> You've obviously done considerable research if you
> know of Steve Curtis -- few people do nowadays.

It's not research, just memory. I was heavily involved in
wargaming at the time.
I still have a lot of boardganes and few thousand lead figures in
various scales.

I have a letter from Steve's dad telling me of his unfortunate
death somewhere.
I had ordered another copy of his Old West Skirmish rules, as my
original had become pretty heavily worn (they were only
gestetners or photocopies of the typed manuscripts at the the
time, no fancy printing like you get these days <grin>), along
with a new pair of d20's, and his dad filled the order and gave
me the news.

> >While I'm not going to deny D&D's importance, it was not, IMO,
> >neccessary for the development of roleplaying.
>
> I'm not as certain of that as you are . . . let us
> agree to disagree.

Certainy. I was, after all, merely expressing my opinion.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:53:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:53:58 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC74249.2877.6779B3@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are
> by officers in the Captain to Colonel range, with
> the next group being those run by Generals, though
> these are quite often one General  replacing another
> and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have
> to do more reading, methinks.

You will, a coup in one of the West Inddian isles (Grenada?) was
led by a Corporal, IIRC

And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424.145416.-149337.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> Well, I hate to butt in here, but I'm a prime
> example of the above conversation.
>
> I'm disabled as you all know, pulling in roughly
> $17.5k via S.S. and my disability pension.

Just to show that "tolerable" is definitely relative:

What you are are earning on your benefits, is, when translated to
New Zealand dollars, almost _twice_ both the average wage, and
twice what a family of _six_ would be expected to live on in New
Zealand on the unemployment benefit.

It is more than what a non-senior teacher would earn and about
what a policeman would earn here after a year or so on the job.
It is approximately 1.25 times what I earned as an NCO avionics
technician in the Air Force

However, outside of a few high cost areas lke New York city and
the Silcon Valley environs, the cost of living in New Zealand is
not appreciably lower than that in the US (at least according to
my sister who has recently returned from  the US), so what (you
seem to be implying) constitutes hardship for you, would be
considered moderately well to do in New Zealand.

Of course, I'm sure someone from Russia could point out they
could live like a king on 17.5K USD p.a.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 03:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr 25 02:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8A@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Pitt [mailto:frankie@mundens.gen.nz]
> Sent: 25 April 2002 09:57
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] RE: Bayonets
> 
> 
> Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> > Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are
> > by officers in the Captain to Colonel range, with
> > the next group being those run by Generals, though
> > these are quite often one General  replacing another
> > and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have
> > to do more reading, methinks.
> 
> You will, a coup in one of the West Inddian isles (Grenada?) was
> led by a Corporal, IIRC
> 
> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.
> 
> Frankie

And IIRC Idi Amin was a Sergeant

Matt 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:12:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <200204241458.EXD05545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20425.005842.9d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn says
> <snip about the "smart" camera system>
>
> The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
> the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
> Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
> to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
> serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
> incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
> be.
>
> Factor in the following:
>
> a.  Criminal warrant issued, but no picture
> b.  Criminal warrant issued, but not entered into database in 
> a timely manner
> c.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
> found not guilty, data not updated
> d.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
> does his time, is released, and data not updated

e. Criminal warrant issued, data entry goof and innocent person's data
attached.

This happens with depressing regularity with systems that are used by
local police and sheriffs departments to put out wants & warrants info
nationwide. 

Several incidents were reported in comp.risks over the years. One of
the problems is that far to many of the systems that local deparetments
feed the data from *other* departments into have no provisions for
receiving *corrections*.

At least one person had to get a signed, notarized letter from the
department that had issued the original erroneus report and carry it
with him when travelling as otherwise any time he got stopped for
*anything*, he'd wind up in the local jail waiting for their attempts
to arrange for him to be picked up and transferred to come back with a
"Huh? We don't want that guy..."

The letter merely changes things so that he can get the department
that's picked him up to actually make a direct *call* to the original
department, and it has enough info that even if the get a new clerk on
the other end, he only loses an hour or two instead of a day or two.

And in spite of the hassles, it's just plain *not* worth trying to sue,
because he'd have to travel *back* to East Podunk (or whereever they
picked him up) for the trial...

> I bet the actual error rate is over 50 percent.  Just go on 
> the web and look at the state of Maryland's sex offender 
> registry.  They state up front that they can't keep it up to 
> date.  They don't really know where these people live.  I 
> spoke to someone in that department, and they said that the 
> only way to find out accurate information about a particular 
> individual is to call and ask for an actual check - they go 
> out and find the individual in question.

Yeah. It's no better with the "private" databases the departments
assemble from the stuff they get off the "wire". 

> The culture and infrastructure for systems like these to be 
> near 100 percent accurate do not exist.

Well, some day, an "important" person will get hit *badly* by one, and
maybe get Congress to pass a law that will attempt to require more
checking of data.

OBTrav should be obvious. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:15:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:15:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B88@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <20425.012317.8s4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>  And
>> who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
>> crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or 
>> just those
>> detained by the police at some previous time?  What about 
>> those who have
>> already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going 
>> to be harassed
>> by the police.
>
> I would expect that the idea was to only inclued persistent
> shoplifters/vandals/muggers/car thieves etc
> And it is hardly and great difficulty to flag each record with an expiry
> date.

No, but in the real world, such databases *aren't* designed with any
such flag. Which bites many innocent people every year.

> So upon a criminal coming before the courts for the umpteenth time for
> such offences the court can order that their 'mugshot' be placed on the
> system for a specified length of time. If they stop offending then after
> that time they are removed from the database.

And if the wrong photo gets placed in the file, the innocent person
will have a fight to get it removed. If the database is shared with
*other* areas, they will have to fight in each and every place they
visit. 

And a private citizen can't *afford* that sort of fight. Which is why
such systems are a bad idea. When they screw up, the effects on the
innocent are *way* out of proportion.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:18:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:18:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <20425.011146.9J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]
>
>> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they' 
>> wanted to trial in 
>> the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras were linked 
>> to a database 
>> containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to 
>> alert the local 
>> police when a 'non-desirable' tried entering the city center 
>> (note; in 
>> England, shopping centers/malls can exclude people for 
>> illegal behviour, so 
>> this is not considered a violation of their rights).
>> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
>> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of 
>> 10,000 bodies 
>> would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals 
>> free to go about 
>> their crimes...
>
> Ummm, not quite...
>
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

No. 

The 4% error rate means that 4% of the people scanned will be
misidentied. So 4% of the people who don't have pictures in the
database would be mistakenly identifed as people in the database AND 4%
of the people scanned who *were* in the database would fail to be
identified.

Thing is, if there are only 100 people in the database, and 10,000
people scanned (and we will assume that the 100 in the database are
part of the total scanned) you get these results:

9,900 people not in database. 
4% false positives = 396

100 people in database
4% false negatives = 4

So, the end results are:

9504 correctly identified as not in database
 396 incorrectly identified as being in database
  96 correctly identified as being in database
   4 incorrectly identified as being in database.

Which means that out of 492 people "tagged", only 96 will be correct
IDs. That means that a bit over *80%* of those tagged will be incorrect
identifications. Which is a *totally* unacceptable error rate.

This is why they *don't* do generalized testing for things like AIDS.
The ratio of infected to uninfected is so *low* that the number of
false positives would *massively* overwhelm the true positives.

And the problem others were talking about is the entirely *independent*
problem of whether or not the folks correctly IDed as being in the
database are actually criminals. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC785BE.E6ACFF88@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CC884F5.17674.53C3CD@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 23:27, John Groth wrote:

> One of the things that annoyed me most about Twilight: 2000 (second
> edition) is that, according to the chargen rules, I did not exist. 
> According to T2K (2e), only Military Intelligence officers could perform
> interrogator duties; enlisted MI types were treated as equivalent to
> Support branch (i.e., mechanics and the like).  As an enlisted
> interrogator (MOS 97E4P) who currently has 18+ years of experience in
> the field, I was (understandably, I think) quite put out by this chargen
> rule, especially since very few MI commissioned officers in the US Army
> _ever_ learn how to interrogate prisoners of war.

As I was a grunt when I struck T2K 1e I didn't notice this, though I do 
remember being unimpressed by that on general principles. However T2k 
2e's insistence that military intelligence types take a -1 initiative 
rankled.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <20020424223740.A14385@4dv.net>
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500
Message-ID: <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 22:37, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
> >
> > Try being allergic to cig smoke.
> 
> That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
> <http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.

Yeah, right. Sure it doesn't. From what I've seen over the years just 
about anything is allergic to someone out there.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3CC8870B.29806.5BEAE4@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 9:09, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even farther with image
> intensifiers. Also, you might want not to leave much stuff around, which
> is quite hard if you have to remember collecting everything you smoke.

There's nothing quite like some smoker lighting up at night to give 
your position away. About the only way to hide all the light is to 
smoke in the sleeping bay of a full-overhead protected trench or 
bunker, with a blanket, sack or jecket over the enterance.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir
 we got trouble .
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500 <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> On 24 Apr 2002 at 22:37, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
> > >
> > > Try being allergic to cig smoke.
> >
> > That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
> > <http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.
>
> Yeah, right. Sure it doesn't. From what I've seen over the years just
> about anything is allergic to someone out there.
>

Now Rupert, The American Tobacco Institute has spent a lot of money
proving that cigarettes are good for you and you want us to believe on the
basis of your anecdotal evidence that they could cause someone a problem?
Get real buddy!


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20425.012810.2T3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in
> the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database? It
> is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken as one in 25
> of the members of the database will be misidentified... If there was only
> one picture in the database is there a 4% chance that any given person will
> be identified as it? Or much more likely, if there was only one person in
> the database 4% of the time the system would report 'no match' when
> analysing a picture of that individual.

Sorry, failure rates work *both* ways. There *will* be false matches,
not merely failures to make matches that should have been made.

Properly, they should have given the rates for false positives and for
false negatives. But the folks marketing such things don't want to
mention false positives. And without knowing the rates for both, as
well as the ratio of the total population to the number of people in
the database, you can't run numbers on this to properly evaluate it.

In another post, I did a rough evaluation with 4% error rate for both
positives and negatives. Note that for any given false positive rate,
the *number* of errors grows in direct proprtion to the size of the
population. If you scan twice as many people you get twice as many
errors. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:18:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:18:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <3CC7743B.26719.1EA397@localhost>
Message-ID: <20425.013434.5F0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 24 Apr 2002 at 10:58, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
>> Tod Glenn says
>> <snip about the "smart" camera system>
>> 
>> The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
>> the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
>> Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
>> to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
>> serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
>> incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
>> be.
>
> How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
> least keep the false positive rate down.

You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
have to be present at the trial *there*. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:21:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:21:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <20020425074906.B11272@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20425.015908.4k0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
>> of the period.
>
> Oops, it's the other way around :)
>
> (2 pi / T)^2 = G M / R^3
> so T^2 = k R^3, where k = (2 pi)^2 / (G M)

Tell the folks who printed the stronomy Quick Study reference card I
checked it on!

Aha! The text has it right, the formula below it has it wrong!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:24:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:24:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250924020.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20425.013633.5Q9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

That's better than the cartoon I have where an obvious Soviet guard
type is asking "Why are your papers in order?"

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:27:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:27:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Question on planetary orbits
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424234029.00ab4ef0@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <20425.033231.2x1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
>  >of the period.
>
> Keplers third law is that the square of the period is proportional to the 
> cube of the distance.

Blasted reference I was using had the law right in the text, but had
the exponents swapped in the formula. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:30:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:30:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  All of the above is interesting. But not my main Traveller theme part.
> For example <composing a reply to a prior msg with this topic> The entire
> premise above is dealing with the measurements of the micro$haft style of
> disks and formatting.

Actually, it's the method ised by floppy *and* hard disk controllers
for just about everything. GCR and all the rest of that was only used
by Apple and Commodore. Everybody else used the single chip FDC chips
that came out starting in 1977. And the similarly integrated HDC setups
that came out later.

The "low level" formatting is standard across just about all the
computer industry. The only variables are things like sector size and
number of sectors per track.

Dig up a spec sheet for any floppy controller chip and you'll see the
same info as to the things that can be varied. 

MS is using a format set by IBM and the "low level" stuff goes backk to
the original *mainframe* floppy disks (and hard drives) developed in
the 1960s.

I've got the manuals for an old mainframe hard drive, and the
controller level formatting options aren't that different from what
modern hard and floppy drives use. 

The Commodore setup really *is* an oddbal and *very* minority format.

> i use Commodore exclusively. First we measure in
> blocks 4 = 1kb. The single sided drives read thes disk at 664 C= blocks.

No, at the *hardware* level, it's still sectors and tracks. You just
have thungs like variable numbers of sectors per track, based on how
close to the cebter of the disk you are (I went into a lot of this with
a friend who had a VIC 20 and later a C-64 when we were trying to see
if we could reas each other's disks somehow).

Those "blocks" are equivalent to "clusters" on PC drives. And they are
a product of the OS, not the hardware. If you check into the low level
details, you'll find that the blocks are part of the *logical*
formatting (how the OS groups stuff and addresses it) not the
*physical* formatting (which is the sectors and tracks, encoded upon
the media). 

*If* Commodore had used FM and MFM encoding on the disks, rather than
GCR (basicly a different way of modulating the signal that represents
the bitstream on the media), then all it'd take to read a C-64 disk on
a PC would be some fancy software. 

As it is, it's like trying to read a Beta tape on a VHS machine. Even
if you feed the tape past the heads, the signal format is wrong. The
data encoded on the tapes is the *same* (NTSC video). 

But once you extract the bitstream, the floppy controller references
that as sectors and tracks. On a PC, we have access at that level. With
a 1541, the CPU in the 1541 has access at that level. You only have
access at the OS level (blocks, files etc) unless you can change the
code being run by the CPU in the drive.

>  Now then all tat said. We have talked about some converting things. using
> what I know which is a samttering of the techy stuff for the Commodore
> world. i have tools that allow translation on my system. Allowing me to
> translate from Pet to Ascii and back again. So that part is covered for
> text. I also have tools that allow scaling of JPGs and GIFs. These at
> videocam. That allow for my screen size. I have tools to pas along to the
> windoze and Amiga users that allow the text translation for my preferred
> DT <Desk Top> system Geos. Even the ability to make .D64 image files for
> the emulator users.

Again, you are conflating a bunch of *independent* things:

1. media type/encoding (ie what the data is stored on and how the bits
   are encoded onto the media)
   
   Examples: holes punched in paper tape, holes punched in any of
   several types of punch card, bits coded onto magnetic tape in any of
   several ways, bits on floppy disks in GCR/FM/MFM. Bits on Had drives
   in FM/MFM/RLL/ERLL

2. Media formatting (tracks, sectors, etc)

   Examples: tapes formatted with Unit, record, block, etc marks
   Disks formatted into sectors, tracks, cylinders

3. OS formatting (files, directories, etc)

   Examples: different directory & file structures in TRS-DOS (at least
   5 versions I know of that are incompatible with each other), MS-DOS,
   Mac, Apple II (at least 2 OSes), CP/M, Unix, etc

4. File formatting (how the bits and bytes inside the file represent
   the data)

   Examples: Wordstar, WordPerfect, Scripsit, MS Word, PerfectWriter
   All word processors, all encoding text with formatting
   instructions, all available for MS-DOS, all using different
   formats.

5. output device & formatting (how the data is presented to the user)
   
   Examples: fixed pitch printer, no backspace/overstrike.
             fixed pitch printer with backspace/overstrike
             proportional font printer
             loadable font printer
             "graphics" printer (ie anything that prints stuff as a
               "image fed by the computer)
   All hardcopy output devices, with different sorts of inputs and
   different output capabilities.
    

I'm saying that for the most part level 4 will be uniform. Everybody
will use or be able to translate to/from the standard Imperial file
formats.

The limits will be most a case of not being able to handle some formats
because your equipment isn't up to it.

Probably levels of difficult:

fixed pitch text in local alphabet
fixed pitch text in multiple alphabets
formatted text in local alphabets
formatted text in multiple alphabets

Still images (ie low res pixel graphics)
still images (fax/wirephoto)
still images (photos)

Audio (with various levels as bit rate and mono/stereo are added)

Video

Holo

>  OK what I am looking at on this topic is the same type of things in tols
> and utils for converting different standards and platforms in the 3I.
> Based and projecting from the exisitng styles we have now. Putting that
> into the CT game.

Depends on whether you are receiving a *signal* or media. 

If you are receiving media, you need a reader and one or more levels of
concerter to get the files out. Once you have the files, it's fairly
simple to have software take it the rest of the way. 

My list above dealt (mostly) with media.

If you have a signal, the levels are similar but different. 

Look up the OSI model for one way to break that sort of thing down.

The important thing to realize is that at *any* level of a properly
designed system, you can swap the stuff that deal with that level out
and replace it with something that handles it differently, and not
affect things much.

In fact, the C-64 is better suited demonstrating that than most
systems. Compare the way you read/write from a tape, a 1541, the
IEEE-488 based Commodore business systems drive that uses the same
floppies and format as the 1541, a hard drive etc.

As I recall, for reading/writing a *file* all you'd change is the unit
number or some such. 

So the problems faced by the players be a matter of which levels things
are incompatible at.

Wrong media (cassette instead of disk? Wrong size disk?)

Wrong encoding (GCR vs MFM or the like. Or 5 channel versus 8-channel
paper tape)

Wrong formatting (wrong size sectors? Wrong number of sector, tracks,
whatever) 

Wrong OS? (A PC formatted floppy written by OS/2 isn't much use with Windows)

Wrong file format (It's in Wordstar, they have wordPerfect)

Or a combination of the above if you are really feeling evil.

And to be *supremely* evil, when the get the data, it may be in the
wrong language. Or be a picture taken by a species that has a different
spectral sensitivity (ie, we see red to vilet. They see short IR to
Blue. Or Orange to near UV) 

That last is fun if you have a decent graphics program or if you
understand how BMPs or other non-compressed image formats store data.
Removing the color(s) they don't see is fairly easy if you are a
programmer geek. Shifting the colors is a bit harder. *Adding* the
color they don't see is harder.

Ever try recognizing something from a color IR picture? <eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
References: <20020425052154.B00C227A9C@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>

Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
very, very large capital ships?

I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
spinal mounts.

I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
sharing.

By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

Thanks, all.

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir  we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC898A7.17942.A0B903@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 7:05, alan spik wrote:

> Now Rupert, The American Tobacco Institute has spent a lot of money
> proving that cigarettes are good for you and you want us to believe on the
> basis of your anecdotal evidence that they could cause someone a problem?
> Get real buddy!

Rule #1: Follow the money.

I have no monetary interest in getting people to stop smoking, they 
have lots of interest in getting as many people smoking as much tobacco 
as possible.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:03:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:03:58 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC898A8.8362.A0BA58@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 6:36, David Smart wrote:

> Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> very, very large capital ships?
> 
> I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
> spinal mounts.
> 
> I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
> sharing.
> 
> By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
> TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

Hmm. Wasn't there an Auri-Tech research vessel around that would fill 
the bill?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:07:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:07:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <20425.013434.5F0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <3CC7743B.26719.1EA397@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC898A7.24874.A0B7D7@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 1:34, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
> > least keep the false positive rate down.
> 
> You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
> entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
> take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
> have to be present at the trial *there*. 

Well sue the originating organisation. Then sue 'em for libel in that 
they spread false infermation about you.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
Message-ID: <F1783GykBbKP7Ie8tlM000034bd@hotmail.com>

From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>

     "heres the second in my series of conversions"


Mr. Cat,

     Bravo, sir!  Well done!  Your conversions have been superb, hence the 
near total lack of comment about them on the List!
     Please enjoy the TML's Black Hole of Quality.  Could you drop the rest 
of us a postcard and let us know what that place is like?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S.  Would any of the more artistically inclined members of the List care 
to design a "TML Black Hole of Quality" medallion?  I thinking something the 
size of a gaudy soup plate on a crepe paper ribbon.  Hmmm, perhaps a simple 
lapel pin would be more appropriate...


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (silverberg)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Spacedoc v1.2 or later
Message-ID: <000801c1ec58$66b74ad0$720b1ed4@tyrell001>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I am looking for the above program or similar. Unfortunately all the
links I have found so far are obsolete. Can any one help me find this
program?
 
Many Thanks
 
Regards
 
Silverberg
 
 

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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font-family:Arial'>I am looking for the above program or similar. =
Unfortunately
all the links I have found so far are obsolete. Can any one help me find =
this
program?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <F1783GykBbKP7Ie8tlM000034bd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEHCDMAA.tml@downport.com>

The new diet craze! Put on a black hole lapel pin and everyone will think
you're eating when you aren't getting a single bite!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade

> P.S.  Would any of the more artistically inclined members of the
> List care
> to design a "TML Black Hole of Quality" medallion?  I thinking
> something the
> size of a gaudy soup plate on a crepe paper ribbon.  Hmmm,
> perhaps a simple
> lapel pin would be more appropriate...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22715@USCHM203>

>I was at Benning when that happened. The common reaction was "who cares" 
>and the clubs on VD Drive never bothered to check IDs.

You were lucky. The Marines were a lot stricter. And at about the same time
they pretty much tore down Court Street, which was where all the good (or
bad if you were an MP)bars were.
So you had about 10,000 or young Marines who were able to enjoy a few beers
one weekend, and not able to the next. Fights and disciplinary violations
actually increased.
I agree that there are situations where smoking is a bad idea, but a blanket
ban on smoking would do more harm than good, in my opinion. 99% of
servicemen are not going to be in a position where it matters.

>Having addicts in the trenches does not aid 
in the mission.

I don't think jonesing for a cigarette is the same as having a heroin
withdrawal, and aside from VC with good noses in very specific
circumstances, I fail to see how smoking has any effect on combat
effectiveness. Yes, it reduces lung capacity and endurance, but those 50% +
smokers in my unit could still run six miles the same as the non-smokers.
Obviously, common sense would preclude smoking on opreations where stealth
was required. There doesn't need to be any sweeping edict affecting the
entire Army.

For the record, there were periods in the field where no smoking was allowed
for weeks. There was grumbling, but no one went into a disabling nicotine
fit.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <B8ED52C0.5887D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/25/02 1:56 AM, Frank Pitt at frankie@mundens.gen.nz wrote:

> 
> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.

Austrian Corporal. And I would call it a coup when you are elected to ofice
by popular vote.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F235nUTBnxARhnHcWhl00004133@hotmail.com>

>From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>
>Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
>very, very large capital ships?

Half a dozen or so and more hiding in my backpocket (i.e. on my HD).

>I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
>spinal mounts.

Is a 406 Gj Meson gun fitted to a 900'000 dt Dreadnough enough? If not I 
have a 2 Mdt design on my hardrive (but that is streching things a bit).

>I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
>sharing.

All you can eat at Dimash Starships:
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/starships.html

>By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
>TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

Spreadsheets availible at request for most designs.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <019901c1ec5f$4ae870c0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 4:56 AM
Subject: RE: [TML] RE: Bayonets


> Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> > Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are
> > by officers in the Captain to Colonel range, with
> > the next group being those run by Generals, though
> > these are quite often one General  replacing another
> > and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have
> > to do more reading, methinks.
>
> You will, a coup in one of the West Inddian isles (Grenada?) was
> led by a Corporal, IIRC
>
> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.
>
> Frankie
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:46:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:46:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F251utSgcOrBLSAQV6u0000a9dd@hotmail.com>

I don't know if this message showed up correctly so I'm reposting it (Davied 
Smart didn't see it on the digest). My applogies if you have allready seen 
it.

------------

>Mr. Holmstrm,
>
>I'm a member of the TML and I recently ran across an old email you sent out 
>proposing rules for the building of chem-det lasers using Bruce Macintosh's 
>"MCS" starship combat rules.
>
>If you're still playing Traveller and it isn't an imposition on you, could 
>you tell me if you ever finished a final draft of your rules?

Ohh, I'm still playing Traveller/reading the TML. The short answer to
your question is "sort of yes" but the long answer is more interesting.
I tried to pick apart the NukeDet tables in FFS and the warhead table
in MCS and reverse engineer the Frag and ChemDet warheads using MCS and
FFS. The major problems are that the ChemDet and Frag warheads mentioned in 
MCS might be handwaved and lacks stats (mass/vol/price). More details on 
NukeDets in FFS1/2 would also help. The discussion below assumes that the 
reader knows FFS and MCS. If I'm unclear somewhere just yell.

Most of my argument uses this table from MCS:
>Type                    Pen:Damage     Defence Nuclear Det-Laser            
>                                            TL15    19:13           -7
>                TL13    18:12           -7
>                TL10    17:11           -7
>Chemical Det-Laser-13   13:10           -6
>Fragmentation KKMSIM-10 10:14           -3

If the ChemDets are supposed to have a PEN calue of 13 this means that it 
must have a FFS2 DV of at least 21 (assuming PEN = 10*DAM => MCS DAM 7). 
This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking about a 
X-ray laser to it needs to be at least TL13. MCS states that NukeDets has a 
penetration value of 20 times the FFS2 damage value (instead of the usual 
PEN = 10xDAM). Further it states that the warhead (as a whole) has twice the 
damage compared to the listed damage (per beam) in FFS2. This can be used to 
determine the yield of the NukeDets used in the MCS missile table. Note that 
all the warheads mass around 500 kg.

TL     Yield    Damage  Wt       Vol
10     100 kt    80     540 kg   270 l
13     200 kt    94     500 kg   250 l
15     500 kt   113     500 kg   250 l

From the PD modifiers in MCS I drew the conclusion that ChemDets detonate 
closer to their target than DetNukes and that Frags detonates even closer. 
At shorter distances the missile will be easier to hit but this works both 
ways. Every -1 on defence makes the missile twice as hard to hit (based on 
PD RoF modifiers).

Warhead      Eff.
NukeDet       1
ChemDet       2
Frag         16

To bring the damage of the ChemDet warhead up to DAM 10 we need to hit the 
target 3 times (compared with 2 for NukeDets)using 40Mj laser pulses. Since 
the ChemDet detonates at a more efficient distance we only have to use 67% 
as many lasing rods as on a NukeDet.

Here is where we run out of information. How many lasing rods are there in a 
NukeDet? Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow 
up) or something more powerful (that does)? Can a lasing rod (as used in 
NukeDets) also be used with chemicals? What is the cost/weight/volume of the 
lasing rod and tracking telescope?


There are two ways to handle this.

1. Assume that all warheads in the MCS missile list are 500 kg/250 l. The 
cost of the ChemDet warhead is anybody's guess but say 100 kCr. The ChemDet 
with PEN13 and DAM10 will represent the baseline warhead and can be modified 
as follows.

Modify weight and volume based on Tech Level.

TL  Wt and Vol mod
13   1.00
16   0.67

By changing the power and number of the lasing rods different warheads can 
be constructed. Change the PEN and DAM values and then apply the weight, 
volume and price modifiers. Each extra point can be added to either DAM or 
PEN but not to both.  Points can also be transferred (e.g. PEN+1/DAM-1) at 
no cost.

Bonus*   Wt, Vol and Price mod
+1          1.5  (1.46)
+2          2.0  (2.15)
+3          3.0  (3.16)
+4          4.5  (4.65)
+5          7.0  (6.81)
+6         10.0  (10.0)
For negative modifiers divide instead.

Examples

A TL11 ChemDet warhead (-2).
Pen = 13 - 1 = 12.
Dam = 10 - 1 = 9.
Wt = 500 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 500 kg.
Vol = 250 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 250 l.
Price = 100 / 2.0 = 50 kCr.

A TL13 Heavy ChemDet Warhead (+3).
Pen = 13 + 2 = 15.
Dam = 10 + 1 = 11.
Wt = 500 * 3.0 = 1500 kg.
Vol = 500 * 3.0 = 750 l.
Price = 100 * 3.0 = 300 kCr.


A +3 ChemDet warhead and a ring of imperial intervention is all a traveller 
needs. ;) The modifiers are based on the 6*log10 damage scale of MCS and the 
Chemical Lasing Cartridge efficiency table. I believe this gives reasonable 
numbers but one might want to differentiate the TL table a bit.


2. Running the numbers of a 500 kg warhead using standard components.

A 40Mj 10 cm X-ray focal array with 10'000 km effective range at TL13.
Focal area  : 0.007854 m2.
Focal vol   : 0.000314 m3.
Focal mass  : 0.314 kg.
Focal price : 31.4 Cr.

Input energy  : 61.54 Mj.
Cartridge wt  : 30.77 kg.
Cartridge vol : 3.127 l.
I can't find the listed price for CLC cartridges in FFS2 so I use FFS1 
figures instead.
Cartridge price : 1850 Cr.

The weight limitation allows 16 cartridges to be fitted.
Warhead Wt    : 497.3 kg.
Warhead Vol   : 55.06 l.
Warhead Price : 30 kCr.

The result a very cheap and compact warhead but I doubt that 16 cartridges 
are enough since a NukeDet probably has more than 24 lasing rods. Building 
the thing with TL15 will allow for 21 cartridges and TL16 gets us 35 (mainly 
due to better cartridges). To be completely legal the warhead would need a 
beampointer which adds ~1000 kg at TL13. With a beampointer it is hard to 
see how any of the beams could miss at all.

Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a lot. 
TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge? Double this?


Ideas/Comments are welcomed.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>

From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>

     "I've done this with a Vargar steward on my groups ship. Keeping her in 
fresh meat is a real challenge at points. Especially since she insists on 
sharing it all with the passengers and crew."


Sir,

     Nice touch!  A steward with odd culinary ideas sounds great.  Have the 
PCs loathe the meals she prepares BUT she also lures lots of high passengers 
aboard with the same.  The PCs Beowulf could get a rep for catering to a 
certain type of traveller; they pay well and are just annoying enough to 
make the PCs batty.

     "Hadn't really thought of the ingredient angle.  Thanks Larsen."

     Your very welcome.  Have your PCs set aside a low berth for the Vargr 
steward's "supplies"?  Or rigged up a similar device in the hold or 
engineering?  How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy 
stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other supplies 
and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require PRECISE 
enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the constant risk 
of possible allergens from all those plants wafting their way through the 
ventilation system...


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:57:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:57:05 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
Message-ID: <F182WZbQLbzjADMBLxt00008700@hotmail.com>

John Groth <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
> > On 23 Apr 2002 at 13:04, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >
> > > The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST
> > > series is that everyone is an officer.
> >
> > That didn't bother me in the slightest, seeing as there were often
> > engineering officers doing what we'd have ratings employed at.
> > Obviously the later Star Trek period saw a lot of 'job inflation' in
> > the Federation. Probably some bureaucrat thought it'd help morale or
> > recruitment if everyone in Starfleet got to be an officer.
>
>I suspect that the rank inflation of the ST universe (and many other
>fictional universes) has more to do with the observation that Robert
>Heinlein (adroitly bringing the thread back to its title) made in _Job:
>A Comedy of Justice_ that civilians automatically seem to equate
>themselves with officers, regardless of the actual position the
>civilians in question hold in the employment and/or social hierarchy.

This may not be accurate, as I'm drawing on secondary sources
(FASA's Star Trek RPG) for this...

Starfleet has a whole rack of Enlisted and NCO ranks, and
people of these ranks make up the majority of the organization.

We, the viewers, keep seeing special and unusual cases.
For example, _USS Enterprise_ (from the old series) was one
of only twelve Constitution-class cruisers, and such ships
were the most prestigious ships in Galaxy Exploration Command,
which was the most prestigious division of Starfleet.  The
crews of these special ships were officers from Captain
down to bottle-washer.

Lesser ships in the Galaxy Exploration Command would have
some enlisted personnel in their crews, and ships in the less
prestigious commands (such as the Merchant Marine or
Colonial Operations Command) would have a more traditional
enlisted to officers ratio.

As I said, this is material from a secondary source, so it
may be inaccurate.  It may even be a whole-cloth creation
of the game designers, rather than a report of the actual
organization of Gene Rodenberry's Starfleet.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <F24sxyWSBuhOF3Gc76o0000388d@hotmail.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

     "I once ran an Aftermath campaign where the players were kept busy 
looking for ingredients for an omelet by a deranged gourmand in return for 
some penicillin."


Mr. Glenn,

     Ooooh, nasty, I like it!
     As a GM, I loved the "we need a nail" trick; getting the PCs to WANT to 
dance to your tune through the use of scavenger hunts.  I never really ran 
any high powered campaigns, so my PCs never needed a lefthanded frommitz 
board in order to turn back the Zho invasion.  Instead, they chased about 
after will o' the wisps as a way of making, or saving, some fast credits.
     A multi-jump high passenger, and her entourage, who will require a 
glass of tomato juice, a nobble steak, 90% humidity in her stateroom, a 
large panetella, and several rounds of whist EACH AND EVERY day while aboard 
really whipsaws the PCs.  They'll slaver over the credits they could make 
and chase around like goofs after the incidentals they'll need to bring it 
off.  That gives the GM oodles of ways to introduce new plots, new NPCs, new 
obstacles, new everything into the campaign.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:05:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:05:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <B8ED52C0.5887D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8ED5AC3.58886%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/25/02 6:29 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> on 4/25/02 1:56 AM, Frank Pitt at frankie@mundens.gen.nz wrote:
> 
>> 
>> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
>> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.
> 
> Austrian Corporal. And I would call it a coup when you are elected to ofice
> by popular vote.
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.


Sorry.  I WOULDN'T call is a coup....
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <20020425052152.7692927A9A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004901c1ec65$0d704c80$7f5d8690@computer>

> From: Lord Ronin from Q-Link 
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?
> 
>  The incorrect response is "Sorry Man I've only got a pipe."

<chuckle>

A _very_ incorrect response.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>; from babyduck@mindspring.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 07:05:51AM -0400
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost> <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020425084838.A15956@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 07:05:51AM -0400, alan spik wrote:
> 
> Now Rupert, The American Tobacco Institute has spent a lot of money
> proving that cigarettes are good for you and you want us to believe on the
> basis of your anecdotal evidence that they could cause someone a problem?
> Get real buddy!

The site I referenced was the usual medical smoking is EEEVIL sort of
claptrap, but even it admitted that smoke is not an allergen, but can
exacerbate _other_ allergies, and asthma.  As I noted.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink
I feel ashamed.  Then I look into the glass and think about
the workers in the brewery and all of their hopes and
dreams.  If I didn't drink this beer, they might be out of
work and their dreams would be shattered.  Then I say to
myself, `It is better that I drink this beer and let their
dreams come true than be selfish and worry about my liver.'
                                             --Unattributed

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 09:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr 25 08:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Judder-drive?
Message-ID: <DAV22gADGFXpWvFmaWn0000574a@hotmail.com>

Did this one die on the vine?

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns9999242

19:00 06 December 00

Full text follows:


A juddering magnet has inspired a scientist at the US Department of Energy
to investigate a bizarre new way of propelling a spacecraft.

The idea for a "judder-drive" struck David Goodwin when he noticed that
powerful, cryogenically-cooled superconducting magnets often jolt in one
direction for a centimetre or two when you first turn them on.

"If you have something metal in the magnetic field as it is forming, you see
the magnet physically shift," says Goodwin, who works at the Office of High
Energy and Nuclear Physics in Germantown, Maryland.

Superconducting magnets are cooled to such a low temperature that they have
no electrical resistance. Goodwin's magnets were made by taking
superconducting wires of niobium-tin alloy and twisting the strands into a
cable. The cables were then coated with an insulator and wound into a coil.
"The coil's then put into a cylindrical casing called a cryostat that's
filled with liquid helium," says Goodwin. The liquid helium cools the wire
coil to -269 C, when they become superconducting.

Goodwin says the metal objects create the judder effect by inducing a "brief
asymmetry in the magnetic field" as it is set up when the magnet is turned
on. This initial disturbance of the magnetic field, he says, creates a
repulsive force on the magnet and pushes it away.

But the force produced in one jolt is very low, Goodwin says, so you would
need to turn the magnet on and off with ultrafast switches, making a fast
stream of jolts. "We've got switches now that can work at high voltages at
400,000 times a second," he says. "If you could use one of these switches to
rapidly switch the magnet on and off, you might get some propulsion out of
it."

A colleague of Goodwin's at Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York is
now modelling the magnetic field of superconducting magnets to work out how
best to arrange a metallic disc in the magnetic field to produce the biggest
jolt. But Goodwin admits the judder drive might be going nowhere fast. "It's
very speculative. We don't know if it'll work," he says.

Marc Millis, who heads NASA's breakthrough propulsion physics project at the
NASA Glenn Research Center at Lewis Field in Cleveland, Ohio, has invited
Goodwin to present his idea at a propulsion conference in July next year.

The crucial thing, says Millis, is whether Goodwin's magnet would produce
any net motion at all - it might just sit there and vibrate. "It's a
definite possibility that any forces arising from Goodwin's concept will
only act within the components of the device itself, resulting in no net
force," he says. "There are a lot of unresolved physics issues to address."

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <3CC82CB1.6050208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Matthew Bond wrote:

> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in
> the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database? It
> is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken as one in 25
> of the members of the database will be misidentified... 

Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here, 
comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.

You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via 
your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of 
false positives and false negatives.

That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously, 
whihc means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched 
erroneously.

If they seriously start arresting, harassing, and otherwise 
incoveniencing people based on this system those shop owners are going 
to lose a lot more business that they would have ever lost by letting 
known shoplifters into their stores.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . .
 yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <20020424223740.A14385@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204250919130.24595-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
> >
> > Try being allergic to cig smoke.
> 
> That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
> <http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.
> 
> Perhaps you're slightly asthmatic, or have other allergies which smoke
> in generl triggers?

Tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens, but many of the things that
tobacco is treated with are allergenic.

I used to live in Kentucky where much of the world's tobacco is grown.  I
would become very ill every year during the spraying season.  You are
smoking, when you smoke cigarettes, all of the pesticides and other
chemicals.  I am not allergic to tobacco, but I have allergic reactions
that are very real to most cigarettes and an even more severe reaction to
the stale ashes of cigarettes.

Robert, you smoke good tobacco. I believe you smoke cigars or a pipe.  I
assure you cigarettes are very different.

Even the cloves I like to smoke once or twice a year cause me some
problems, which is probably why I never got addicted-- I couldn't ever
smoke more than one or two and couldn't do it multiple days in a row.

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:27:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:27:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . .
 yessir we got trouble .
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500 <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC82DFF.50605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Yeah, right. Sure it doesn't. From what I've seen over the years just 
> about anything is allergic to someone out there.
> 

<cringe> People are 'allergic', things are 'allergenic' to people...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <019901c1ec5f$4ae870c0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020425093636.00a0fec0@mindspring.com>

At 09:44 AM 4/25/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
>wars

And 0 for 2 in finishing them...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:40:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:40:11 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019752592.311.ajackson@ping>

David Smart writes:
> Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> very, very large capital ships?

Most of the designs I've seen floating about have been TL 15, I'm not sure you
can build a huge TL 12 capital ship.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:44:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:44:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . .yessir we got trouble .
Message-ID: <200204251643.EZD03454@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
><cringe> People are 'allergic', things are 'allergenic' to 
>people...
>

More to the point - it is possible for a substance to be an 
irritant, with severe effects, and yet provoke no allergic 
response.  Many of the gaseous constituents of tobacco smoke 
probably fall into this category.

Also, some chemicals can make you more sensitive to other 
irritants and allergens.  Toluene di-isocyanate, a popular 
industrial solvent, is famous for turning people into 
permanent asthmatics.

The person at the most risk, however, is probably the 
smoker.  Second hand smoke carries risks, and is an irritant, 
to be sure.  But of all of the things in the cigarette, two 
stand out.  Carbon monoxide is inhaled in sufficient 
quantities to bind hemoglobin for long periods of time.  And 
nicotine is a poison.  Nicotine, as purchased from a plant 
care store, or concentrated from tobacco, is a lethal agent 
if spilled on the skin.  And the smoker is breathing both of 
these agents in concentrations far higher than the person 
receiving the smoke second-hand.

In real life, it's not a healthy thing to be doing to 
yourself, or the others around you.  But, like other risk-
taking that we engage in, it's something that a fair number 
of people accept.  It is far more dangerous to drive your car 
to work everyday.  It is far more dangerous to allow yourself 
to become overweight, or to constantly eat fatty foods.

I am polite enough not to smoke in the presence of people I 
know will be irritated by it.  I was able to stop smoking at 
will in the field, and it never affected my ability to run or 
yomp.  

ObTrav:  IMTU It's a fantastic world of the future - they 
call it tobacco, but centuries of genetic engineering and 
chemistry have produced a product which is largely harmless 
(still working on that carbon monoxide).  Some people might 
find it an irritating habit.  And tactically, it's still a 
bad idea.  Other worlds have come up with other things to 
smoke as well.

As evidenced by "stuff on a stick" at the Regina starport, 
nothing at all has been done about fatty foods.  There are 
plenty of nachos, ding dongs, and powdered sugar donuts in 
the Far Future.
________________
There's a man who leads a life of danger
To everyone he meets he stays a stranger
With every move he makes another chance he takes 
Odds are he won't live to see tomorrow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <OF5C76E27C.BD421F78-ON85256BA6.005BCA1B@pheaa.org>






>>Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
>>wars

>And 0 for 2 in finishing them...

I don't believe Germany actually started WWI. if i remember correctly a
Serbian shot the Arch Duke this got Austria into a war then because of the
way the treaties were set up back then it was a domino effect pulling in
the other countries.

However by the time the war was over Germany had been blamed for WWI.
because they where blamed they were forced to pay reparations and
militarily eviscerated. this cause a lot of Germans to lose pride in being
German. Hitler used this to his advantage. he gave them pride again and so
they followed him.

of course this is a very very small aspect of the whole thing that i don't
have time to go into right now. i love WW2 history and took several courses
on it in both high school and college. and if given the chance could talk
about it all day 8P

anyway

Hasta

Bill









From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 11:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr 25 10:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>

From another list.  Not confirmed by me.

< Begin quote >
A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a plan
to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," Williams said in
a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, Ala.,
resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science from
the
University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in business
management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super Market at
Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
< End quote >

Opinions?

ObTrav: How about a planet that imposes a 100% sales tax on off-worlders.
And don't forget departure taxes...

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 11:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 10:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <200204251751.g3PHpXP22829@premier1.premier.net>

> David Smart writes:
> > Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> > very, very large capital ships?
> 
> Most of the designs I've seen floating about have been TL 15, I'm not sure you
> can build a huge TL 12 capital ship.

The largest TL-12 warship I designed is the 160,000 dton _Agincourt_-class.  
Given that Doug Berry's _Coronation_-class (which was used in butchered form in 
_Imperial Squadrons_) was 90,000 dtons, I would consider _Agincourt_ as 
probably a Late M:0 design.

Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my designs for 
_Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).  Note that all three 
of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry NPAW spinal mounts; I've never 
been a big fan of meson guns.  Besides, there are enough other designers who 
_are_ fond of meson guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that 
ecological niche.

I can repost any or all of these designs when I get home this
evening.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>




<snip>
< Begin quote >
A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
plan
to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
</snip>
<snip>
Opinions?
</snip>

Well if it is true then it makes me ashamed to be from Alabama. however
this guy being from Huntsville wanting to bolster NASA money is not
surprising. Huntsville is a huge NASA area. lot of research goes on there.

this is assuming this is true.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:05:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204251804.g3PI4bP24553@premier1.premier.net>

 
> >>Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
> >>wars
> 
> >And 0 for 2 in finishing them...
> 
> I don't believe Germany actually started WWI. if i remember correctly a
> Serbian shot the Arch Duke this got Austria into a war then because of the
> way the treaties were set up back then it was a domino effect pulling in
> the other countries.

And that was the point.  Austria-Hungary used Archduke Dul^h^h^h Ferdinand's 
assassination as a pretext to destroy Serbia, thus kicking off WWI.  Then, an 
_Austrian_ corporal led Germany into beginning WWII.

<<snip>>

ObTrav:  A third Alternate Imperium (along with the GTU and Mr. Whipsnade's 
Wounded Colossus) could begin with the same event (Dulinor's death) as the 
GTU.  However, in the Guns of August TU, Dulinor's assassins have links to an 
extra-Imperial power [EIP] (your choice) [my suggestion would be a polity in 
the Vargr Extents (the closest thing to the Balkans in the TU, IMHO)].  The 3I 
decides to use this as a _casus belli_ to destroy said EIP.  Unfortunately, 
other EIPs feel threatened by the upsetting of the balance of power and declare 
war on the 3I.  Still other EIPs then ally with the 3I, thus kicking off a 
general
war.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:09:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:09:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>; from texasredshift@hotmail.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:42:03PM -0500
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020425120658.A16347@4dv.net>

As ideas go, it's really not all that bad.  1% is a bit steep, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd' - Ian Lamb, age 3.5

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:13:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:13:09 2002
Subject: [TML] whoops, heres the ship
Message-ID: <3CC800B8.19293.16BC72@localhost>

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--Message-Boundary-3736--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:16:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:16:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
Message-ID: <3CC80086.8268.15FA7B@localhost>

ok, heres something a little less subtle

its a conversion of the old FASA design, which replaces the 50 ton missile bay with 2 
triple salvo missile racks, which trade rate of fire for magazine capacity, but allow the 
chameleon to throw 60 missile salvoes. 

on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles in GT are 
stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? its never made any sense not 
to give them a backup homing capability, and or short range missiles for counter 
missile or anti fighter capabilities?





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:21:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:21:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
> plan
> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
> to "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"

Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want to help make
those dreams come true.

/Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 19/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:24:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:24:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Texas Redshift wrote:
>>From another list.  Not confirmed by me.

> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," 

Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You 
cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the 
First Amendment, with ample precedent.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:28:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:28:11 2002
Subject: [TML] whoops, heres the ship
In-Reply-To: <3CC800B8.19293.16BC72@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019758681.1367.ajackson@ping>

Aiii!  Think you can convinced your mailer not to base64 encode your html?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>

At 07:13 PM 4/25/02 +0100, Andy Brick wrote:
> > A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
> > plan
> > to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
> > Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> > proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> > space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> > Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
> > to "space,
> > space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
>Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want to help make
>those dreams come true.

Follow it with a 1% tax on art books, art supplies, and the sale of art 
(records, tapes, movie tickets, paintings, etc.) to fund federal art projects.

A 1% tax on school books and other educational material to go the Education 
Department.
etc.,etc., etc.

The 1% tax on porn would go straight to the Clinton Library and Slush Fund....

Ob-trav: Oh any number of a fun ways to part your players from their hard 
(or is that ill) earned credits.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <3CC80086.8268.15FA7B@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019759803.54.ajackson@ping>

shadowcat writes:

 
> on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles in GT
> are  stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? its never
> made any sense not  to give them a backup homing capability, and or short
> range missiles for counter  missile or anti fighter capabilities?

It's an artifact of the design system; sensors with useful combat range wind up
being extremely expensive.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:41:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:41:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net>

At 11:17 AM 4/25/02 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Texas Redshift wrote:
>> From another list.  Not confirmed by me.
>>Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
>>proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
>>space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
>>Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
>>space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
>Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You 
>cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the 
>First Amendment, with ample precedent.

Oh, like funking US Constitution 101 every kept anybody out of office...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020425.114504.-189505.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:56:49 +1200 "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> > Well, I hate to butt in here, but I'm a prime
> > example of the above conversation.
> >
> > I'm disabled as you all know, pulling in roughly
> > $17.5k via S.S. and my disability pension.
> 
> Just to show that "tolerable" is definitely relative:
> 
> However, outside of a few high cost areas lke New York city and
> the Silcon Valley environs, the cost of living in New Zealand is
> not appreciably lower than that in the US (at least according to
> my sister who has recently returned from  the US), so what (you
> seem to be implying) constitutes hardship for you, would be
> considered moderately well to do in New Zealand.
> 
> Of course, I'm sure someone from Russia could point out they
> could live like a king on 17.5K USD p.a.
> <grin>
> 
> Frankie

Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
To rent a 1 bedroom house here in Stockton it's $1,000 a month minimum,
to buy $125,000 minimum. For a resonably nice 2 bedroom place in a nice
area expect to start at $250,000. This is typical throughout all the
major cities in California.

Hardship, yes.

ObTrav...
What hardships are you forcing on your players?
The payment is due on your starship.
Your overdue on annual maintenance.
Your tab at the tavern is growing.
Creditors are knocking at your door.
How do you work your players to make a profit.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
Message-ID: <F89BOKvHurVEibVCrfX00004d49@hotmail.com>



>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>shadowcat writes:
>>on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles >>in 
>>GT are  stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? >>its 
>>never made any sense not  to give them a backup homing >>capability, and 
>>or short range missiles for counter  missile or anti >>fighter 
>>capabilities?
>
>It's an artifact of the design system; sensors with useful combat >range 
>wind up being extremely expensive.

I'm not a GT gearhead but the missile shouldn't have to have any significant 
range. Something like a 15'000'km sensor should be enough. The missile will 
know exactly where to look (target data over datalink) and will be much 
closer by the time an accurate position is needed.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 13:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 12:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <F89BOKvHurVEibVCrfX00004d49@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019761410.7031.ajackson@ping>

Patrik Holmstr=F6m writes:

> I'm not a GT gearhead but the missile shouldn't have to have any
> significant  range. Something like a 15'000'km sensor should be enough.
> The missile will  know exactly where to look (target data over datalink) =
and
> will be much  closer by the time an accurate position is needed.

The sensor rules in GURPS are heavily broken (as in, off by several orders =
of
magnitude).  A 10,000 mile sensor is not small.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 13:33:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Thu Apr 25 12:33:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <3CC80086.8268.15FA7B@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020425153645.00a49e30@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Shadowcat,


>on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles in GT 
>are
>stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? its never made 
>any sense not
>to give them a backup homing capability, and or short range missiles for 
>counter
>missile or anti fighter capabilities?

We created some long range bombing missiles that ran on inertial guidance, 
then went active when they hit their designated activation location.  The 
expected activation "hex" had to be planned for when a ship was within (if 
I recall correctly) 3 hexes of the activation hex.  What was done was to 
remove the warhead entirely - turning the missile into a kinetic kill 
weapon.  The primary purpose of this missile was to use it for long range 
attacks on enemy shipping.  It did require the use of GURPS VEHICLES 
missile guidance rules as opposed to the standard GURPS TRAVELLER 
rules.  The main reason for this missile's creation was to exploit the fact 
that transponders on civilian ships can be sensed out to rather *extreme* 
ranges.  The idea here was to create missiles that simulated what amounts 
to a "submarine" attack on civilian shipping.

                Hal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020329002354.00a2d920@pop.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20425.115724.3V9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Further on the Earth example, Earth is on the Suns 100d limit,


Sol's radius is 7e8 m. Or 700,000 km. So the diameter is 1.4e6 km. 

100 d would be 140e6 km. 1 AU is 150e6 km.

So it *is* pretty darn close. 

If you use the tidal force "rule" it's a *lot* smaller.

But there's no need to jump to the outer system. Unless your TU
requires jumps end at a gravity well.

Just plot your jump to clear the 100d limit of Sol and come out
"above", "below", "ahead" or "behind" Earth. Roughly 140e6 km away.
Call it 1 AU. Of course this is worst case. 

That's a long trip in normal space, but there's so much space that
ships could come out in that trying to intercept them would be a matter
of pure *luck*. And damned unlikely. 

If (as is true most of the time) Earth is closer to one "edge" of the
"shadow cone" of the sun, you'd jump for that area. Which concentrates
the ships some, but not a lot, as the difference in transit time caused
by being even a million km away from the "ideal" emergence point isn't
that great, but it *totally* hoses intercept attempts.

> so unless 
> your approach angle is from a planet that isn't blocked by the sun, you 
> have to jump to an outer system body and come in from there.

Nope. See above.

> Notably, this is seasonal, and so you might have a "pirate" season
> when the jump lanes shift.

Seasonal for a particular "route". 

> Also, I realised that there's nothing to stop the pirate from jamming the 
> victim. The J-point of the mainworld (Earth) is beyond sensor range, so the 
> pirate, if clever can avoid the patrol even knowing they had a raid.

Jamming is the exact *opposite* of stealth. Even if it's mostly
directional. It also doesn't prevent your victim from sending out a
signal, especially if it's going in a direction other then one your
have the jamming aimed.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:13:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:13:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <001601c1d6c5$0248a060$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20425.122531.2a1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Ok, lets say that there is a large habitat in the planetoid belt of the
> system (one of several such large stations), where the refined products from
> mining stations scattered throughout the belt in a 0.4 AU radius are brought
> by Cargo Cutters for transfer to a larger Jump Capable Transport for
> shipping to the Mainworld/Neighbouring systems etc.
>
> If you intercept one of the cutters you can probably arrange for the
> intercept point to be several millions of km from the nearest SDB. That
> should give you a few hours uninterrupted piracy...

Now try *doing* the intercept. 

If you are using limited delta-V rules, then it gets more than a little
difficult. Especially given that the pirate needs to save enough fuel
to make his post jump manuevers, and (in the leave behind two cutters)
enough for the second intercept and the post jump manuevers after that.

The ship being intercepted only needs to have enough fuel left to get
within range of a "tug" from it's destination.

And jumping into the attack with a high velocity can backfire. If you
come out on the wrong side of the target, youe velociity is in the
wrong direction, and you'd have been better off jumping in at rest.

And don't forget the uncertainty in emergence times. That can place you
*millions* of km out of position. After all that target ship is
*moving*. At the 200 km/sec figure someone else used, every *hour* you
are off in your emergence time means the target is 3/4s of a million km
away from the position you were planning on.

> Now if you counter this by having each little mining station serviced by
> Jump capable ships, which will need to be either J2 capable, or sacrifice
> cargo space for extra fuel (unless each little station has ample fuel
> available to refill the ships tanks), then my attack plan becomes one of
> raiding the little mining outposts and stealing mining equipment, computers,
> and anything else that can be plundered in a few hours (or maybe even days)
> before the nearest SDB can arrive... or does every little mining out post
> have a few SDB's permanently assigned to its defence? Remember, for every
> SDB on its active duty station there are 2 or 3 others in transit or
> undergoing maintenance.

If mining stations get raided regularly, they are apt to be armed. And
miners in asteroid belts will tend to have some pretty powerful lasers
for mining purposes anyway. And mass drivers for tossing low value
cargoes around the system. Nobody is going to bother hijacking a few
hundred tons of iron. But a mass driver that can toss that into an
orbit where it can be picked up by a processing plant or a planet can
toss a ton of "pebbles" at you like the shotgun from hell.

> After all, you can jump to within a thousand km of a 10km planetoid fire a
> few laser blasts at the rock surrounding the mining outpost, demand no
> resistance then send in your Hearty Swashbucklers in a cutter to plunder the
> outpost while covered by your main ships weaponry. Before any help can
> arrive you are long gone.

No, you *can't* make that jump. You can jump to that close to where it
will be IF YOU EMERGE AT THE CALCULATED TIME. 

If you emerge at a different time, you'll be *way* out of position.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:17:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:17:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <006c01c1d6d7$27f40220$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20425.124254.1N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Timothy Little writes:
>> > Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> > > The jump ship isn't that much more expensive, and the performance
>> > > difference is quite large (it's actually a week for 0.4 AU, not 0.8
>> > > AU).
>> >
>> > (Are you sure you aren't using m s^-2 instead of g's?)
>>
>> Yes.  However, I'm also using HEPlaR (as per the person I was responding
> to),
>> which means max delta-V is horrible.
>
> That was me...
>
> I've just looked up the interplanetary travel rules in TNE. Lets take a
> Cutter with 48 G-Turns of Manoeuvre fuel... that's 24 G-Hours. Obviously you
> will use not more than 1/2 of that to accelerate (assuming you intend to
> stop again...) and realistically you would rarely use more than 1/3, so as
> to leave a 1/3 of a tank for emergencies.
>
> So we will go with 8 G-Hours of acceleration. According to the table on
> p.227 of TNE that equates to 18 minutes per Lightsecond. So in 6 days
> coasting (allowing the remaining day for accelerating and decelerating) you
> can travel (6x24x60)/18 = 480Ls... which is 8 Lightminutes or pretty much
> 1AU for a typical operational range.
>
> The Maximum range would be after 12 G-Hours of burn, reaching 12 minutes per
> Ls, or  1.5 AU in 6 days
>
> In the Broadsword vs Cutter example I used earlier, both have 48 G-Turns of
> fuel as standard, but the Broadsword can dip into its Jump Fuel for extra
> manoeuvre fuel. (With its J3 capacity we can assume it can fairly safely dip
> into 1/3 of its jump fuel without hindering its ability to Jump out if
> things go bad, for an extra 15 G-Turns)
>
> At M-3 the Cutter can reach top speed in 4 hours, the Broadsword only has
> M-2 so would take 6 Hours to reach the same speed,  but it can burn for a
> maximum of 15.5 G-Hours using Jump fuel taking it to about 9 minutes per Ls
>
> Assuming the Cutter has already spent 8 G-Hours burning and is coasting when
> the Broadsword Jumps in at relative rest, just as the Cutter passes it.

That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.

> The
> cutter burns for another hour and 20 minutes to reach 12 G-Hours, the
> Broadsword burns for 7 hours 45 minutes to reach its 15.5 G-Hour burn limit.

> So the Cutter goes at 15min/ls for 80minutes then 12min/ls. The Broadsword
> averages 18min/ls for 465 minutes then it travels at 9min/ls until it
> overhauls the cutter. after both ships stop accelerating the cutter is about
> 11.6 Ls ahead of the Broadsword. It then take the broadsword a further 7
> hours or so to close to point blank range... call it 8 or so to allow the
> broadsword some deceleration to match velocities.
>
> So within 16 Hours of arrival the cutter has been caught. In this time the
> vessels have travelled about 70 Ls, or about 0.15 AU.

Except that you are assuming that the cutter is running away in a
straight line. 

It's smarter to make burns at right angles to his course. That makes
your intercept harder because you don't get to build your vector as
easily. Also, don't forget the effect of light speed lag in trying to
counter his manuevers. Until you get close, you'll lose time
accelewrating in the wrong direction after each acceleration change he
makes. 

And in an emergency like this, *he* can afford to burn his tanks dry,
because either an SDB can intercept and refuel him, or a ship can
intercept him as he zips past his desination.

*He* can afford to be floating thru space with empty tanks. *You*
can't. 

Oh yeah if the cutter *does* run "straight" away from you, and you
follow, he can damage you severely just by dumping trash out the
airlock. Work out what a 50 gram bolt will do at 288 km/sec (8
g-hours). It's equivalent to 460 kilos of TNT.

In space a straight out "stern chase" is *dangerous* for the pursuer.

> A standard SDB has 112 G-Turns of fuel, or 56 G-Hours, so at most it will
> use 26 G-Hours to accelerate. Assuming it was coasting after a 26 G-Hour
> Burn (about 6.5 hours with its 4G drive) and was pointing in exactly the
> right direction it can cover a light second in about 5.5 minutes. In 16
> hours it can travel 175ls, or ~0.37 AU. So if the SDB was perfectly position
> on a reciprocal course with the cutter and already at full speed it could be
> about 0.5AU from where the chase started and get there in time to intercept
> in other circumstances it is likely that the Pirate will have a few hours
> before an SDB arrives, and will have plenty of time to jump if an SDB
> approaches.

Yes, but jumping without having made an intercept is a net loss for the
pirate. 

And as long as an SDB can eventually make an intercept with enough feul
to get back to base with the cutter before the life support in the
cutter runs out, the cutter can burn *all* of its fuel in evading you. 

> All this assumes as well that the Cutter reacts to the Broadswords arrival
> instantly, and that the Broadsword has useful residual velocity, and that it
> didn't jump in a few Ls ahead of the Cutter to cut its lead, and the SDB is
> perfectly positioned to intercept.

And that you emerge from jump at the precise time you planned, rather
than hours earlier or later. 

And a whole bunch of other assumptions I dealt with above.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:20:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:20:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017422404.1406.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20425.130046.1P5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I suppose a situation like that could exist.  Pretty rare, though.  Also, 
> since
> you're transporting mining products (dense, low-value) you're not going to 
> use
> cutters, you're going to use bulk carriers, and stealing the cargo will be
> horribly pointless (ok, you have a load of processed ore, at Cr 5,000 per 
> dton.
> What are you going to do with it?)

Heck, with *that* sort of cargo you don't even use a ship. You just
hang some radar corners off a container (or fuse the stuff into a
reasonably solid block instead of "wasting" a container) and either use
a tug to boost it into a transfer orbit or use a mass driver to launch
it into the orbit. 

At the other end a tug graples it and drags it to the customer.

It ain't worth stealing, and it ain't worth wasting a ship on for the
whole trip. In fact, unless there's a rush, such stuff would be in low
velocity orbits that took months or years in transit. You don't *care*
how long a load takes to get there as long as loads arrive regularly.
Sort of like a pipeline.

Nobody bothers tapping a pipeline to steal oil. It ain't worth the
hassle. And so what if it takes weeks for the oil to move from one end
to the other? As long as there's a steady stream...

>> After all, you can jump to within a thousand km of a 10km planetoid fire a
>> few laser blasts at the rock surrounding the mining outpost, demand no
>> resistance then send in your Hearty Swashbucklers in a cutter to plunder
>> the outpost while covered by your main ships weaponry. Before any help can
>> arrive you are long gone.
>
> And the people in the mining outpost move into their mining tunnels
> behind 500 meters of rock and laugh at you.

And he won't know *where* the tunnels are. So all he can do is blast
the places where they reach the surface. The miners can dig out later.
*They* have mining equipment. He doesn't.

And just picture the results of sending troops into a tunnel if the
miners start a tunneling machine from the other end. 

The troops can damage the cutting heads pretty badly before it crushes
them. Or they can use weapons that are apt to kill them at the same
time they stop the machine.

And if instead of mechanical cutting heads it uses lasers or particle
beams things get *really* interesting. <eg>


Hard rock mining gear is *tough*. It has to be. Gear for cutting into
nickel iron asteroids will be even tougher.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEHCDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <DAV14JGwTVfKB0vJXpV00005a42@hotmail.com>

> The new diet craze! Put on a black hole lapel pin and everyone will think
> you're eating when you aren't getting a single bite!
>

Or place a black hole in your modem.  Everyone will think you're receiving
data when you aren't getting a single byte.

Be assured, I am appropriately ashamed.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <20020425120658.A16347@4dv.net>
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>; from texasredshift@hotmail.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:42:03PM -0500
Message-ID: <3CC91708.13447.1F83B4@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:06, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> As ideas go, it's really not all that bad.  1% is a bit steep, though.

But it should be applied to all everything. Who really thinks SF fans 
are the only beneficiaries of NASA's work?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:03:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:03:12 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <200204251751.g3PHpXP22829@premier1.premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CC91708.29789.1F8305@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:48, wombat@premier.net wrote:

> Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my
> designs for _Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).
>  Note that all three of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry
> NPAW spinal mounts; I've never been a big fan of meson guns. 
> Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of meson
> guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that ecological
> niche. 

I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not 
rea;;y a fan of them either, and seldom use them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net>
References: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 14:35, Mark Urbin wrote:

> >Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You 
> >cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the 
> >First Amendment, with ample precedent.
> 
> Oh, like funking US Constitution 101 every kept anybody out of office...

Seems to me (on a quick read-through) that if actually knowing and up 
holding your constitution was a requirement for election you'd have a 
hell of a lot fewer politicians and also a great many fewer laws.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:11:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:11:37 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425.114504.-189505.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CC91946.27653.28495E@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> To rent a 1 bedroom house here in Stockton it's $1,000 a month minimum,
> to buy $125,000 minimum. For a resonably nice 2 bedroom place in a nice
> area expect to start at $250,000. This is typical throughout all the
> major cities in California.

Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three bedroom place in an 
okay area of Wellington. In my home town of Palmerston North you'd 
probably get a 4-bedroom place.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net>
 <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425171543.00b89ec0@urbin.net>

At 09:02 AM 4/26/02 +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 25 Apr 2002 at 14:35, Mark Urbin wrote:
> > >Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You
> > >cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the
> > >First Amendment, with ample precedent.
> > Oh, like funking US Constitution 101 every kept anybody out of office...
>Seems to me (on a quick read-through) that if actually knowing and up
>holding your constitution was a requirement for election you'd have a
>hell of a lot fewer politicians and also a great many fewer laws.

Oh ya...We would probably have just one member out of our current gaggle of 
congresscritters.

...and he'd be from Texas...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8ee241a5d06@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:42 PM -0500 4/25/02, Texas Redshift wrote:
>  >From another list.  Not confirmed by me.
>
>< Begin quote >
>A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a plan
>to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
>Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
>proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
>space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
>Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
>space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," Williams said in
>a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, Ala.,
>resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science from
>the
>University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in business
>management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super Market at
>Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
>< End quote >
>
>Opinions?


How much of the budget would a 1% tax cover?
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:28:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:28:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>
References: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8ee2476727f@[143.232.119.186]>

At 2:35 PM -0400 4/25/02, Mark Urbin wrote:
>Follow it with a 1% tax on art books, art supplies, and the sale of 
>art (records, tapes, movie tickets, paintings, etc.) to fund federal 
>art projects.

I'm not sure these sort of things are such a bad idea.  It would tie 
the projects in better with their constituencies.  For example, the 
SF tax would give NASA funding from a source that puts a priority on 
its activities and give those who are interested in space research 
more results.  (And people are more tolerant of taxes that go to 
specific things they support).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com> <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020426080850.A14241@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, it's the method ised by floppy *and* hard disk controllers
> for just about everything. GCR and all the rest of that was only used
> by Apple and Commodore.

Yes, and wasn't even used in the Commodore Amiga.  It *could* read and
write GCR, but at single density.  (The GCR encoding method looks
better on paper, 4 bits out of 5, but is inherently lower-density for
a given magnetic coercivity of medium.)


> No, at the *hardware* level, it's still sectors and tracks.

Not even that: at the *hardware* level, it's a sequence of magnetic
polarity changes.  Software (or firmware) groups them into sectors and
tracks.  The Amiga didn't have a firmware sector decoder; it read
tracks in as '0' for no polarity change at the appropriate time, and
'1' if there was.  The MFM decoding, sector recognition, and error
checking was done in software -- by the CPU normally, but I wrote a
driver that used the "Agnes" GPU instead.


> *If* Commodore had used FM and MFM encoding on the disks, rather than
> GCR (basicly a different way of modulating the signal that represents
> the bitstream on the media), then all it'd take to read a C-64 disk on
> a PC would be some fancy software. 

As it is, most modern FDD controllers have MFM decoding and sector
recognition in firmware or hardware, so you can't do GCR reading
without changing chips.  However: there are software tricks by which
you can read *most* low-density GCR in an MFM drive (as in recover 90%
or so of the bits) so long as the drive hardware isn't too "smart" and
refuses to read what it thinks is a damaged sector.  Lower-density GCR
comes out with a predictable pattern of bits after MFM 'decoding'.
The only problem is loss of synchronization in low-quality drives.

I believe the Mac uses variable-speed drive hardware as well as GCR,
so this trick won't work with Mac disks.  (At least, they did 10 years
ago when I last played around with these things!)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:14:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:14:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <20020425.180812.-297303.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:42:03 -0500 "Texas Redshift"
<texasredshift@hotmail.com> writes:
> From another list.  Not confirmed by me.

Here's the actual link: 
http://www.al.com/news/huntsvilletimes/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_stan
dard.xsl?/base/news/101949940424601171.xml
 
> < Begin quote >
> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has 
> proposed a plan
> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times 
> reported.
> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District 
> seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and 
> Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to 
> "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," Williams 
> said in
> a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, 
> Ala.,
> resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science 
> from
> the
> University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in 
> business
> management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super 
> Market at
> Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
> < End quote >


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
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Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] second verse same as the first Chameleon
Message-ID: <3CC83AF3.17728.908D6@localhost>

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--Message-Boundary-8302--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F251utSgcOrBLSAQV6u0000a9dd@hotmail.com>
References: <F251utSgcOrBLSAQV6u0000a9dd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020426083935.A14400@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking about a 
> X-ray laser to it needs to be at least TL13.

That doesn't necessarily follow.  TL13 is where controlled and
contained Xray weapon lasers appear, is it not?  I would expect
detonation lasers to appear *much* earlier; TL8 or 9.


> Here is where we run out of information. How many lasing rods are
> there in a NukeDet?

I don't know.  However, the listed figures are probably the most that
can be directed at a single target (regardless of actual number of
rods).  If you have targets scattered around the nuke, it can almost
certainly generate more beams with the same warhead.


> Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow
> up) or something more powerful (that does)?

The latter, I would expect.  A cartridge that doesn't blow up is
over-engineered for this task.


>Can a lasing rod (as used in NukeDets) also be used with chemicals?

Almost certainly nuclear detonation lasers are nothing like chemical
ones.  They would be based on gamma/hard Xray radiation input to begin
with, and chemical reactions never generate such radiation.


> What is the cost/weight/volume of the lasing rod and tracking
> telescope?

TL dependent, certainly.  


> Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a lot. 
> TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing 
> Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical Lasing 
> Cartridge? Double this?

Theoretically possible, yes.  Practically?  I don't know.  The mass of
a cartridge is more than just the mass of chemical compounds contained
within it, and converting chemical energy to laser energy is usually
far from 100% efficient.  2 MJ/kg is very good, as far as I can see.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:02:38AM +1200
References: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net> <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020425164405.A20114@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:02:38AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Seems to me (on a quick read-through) that if actually knowing and up 
> holding your constitution was a requirement for election you'd have a 
> hell of a lot fewer politicians and also a great many fewer laws.

That's not escaped a lot of folks.  Including, I fear, our
politicians.  Unfortunately, a politician's job is not to uphold the
rules but to keep the mob happy.

I've often felt that it would be a good idea to declare that any
legislator voting for an unconstitutional law may no longer hold any
office.  It'd make the courts too powerful, though.  Sigh.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only kind of freedom that the mob can imagine is freedom to annoy
and oppress its betters, and that is precisely the kind that we mainly
have.                                                   --H.L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Judder-drive?
In-Reply-To: <DAV22gADGFXpWvFmaWn0000574a@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV22gADGFXpWvFmaWn0000574a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020426084822.B14400@freeman.little-possums.net>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> The crucial thing, says Millis, is whether Goodwin's magnet would
> produce any net motion at all - it might just sit there and
> vibrate.

The jolt from switching a powerful electromagnet on or off certainly
isn't anything new in physics.  The exact magnitude is extremely
difficult to calculate in practice, but the physics behind it is just
well-known classical electromagnetism.

There is of course the *possibility* that new physics applies, and so
it might be worth looking at.  However, since known physics already
predicts such a jolt I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a
reactionless drive to arise from this research.

In fact, various plasma drives under test already use a more refined
version of this magnetic back-reaction; but of course they use
reaction mass.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com> <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <20020426080850.A14241@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CC8894B.2060409@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> I believe the Mac uses variable-speed drive hardware as well as GCR,
> so this trick won't work with Mac disks.  (At least, they did 10 years
> ago when I last played around with these things!)

Only for the old, no-longer supported 400 and 800K single density and 
double density disks.

Moreover, the drivers for those 400K (and the 800 K , I think) disks 
represent the Woz's contribution to the Mac...these were actually a 
superior method of encoding than what was on PC's...you can store more 
(400 vs 360k, 800 vs 720) and it's a wee bit more reliable, since all 
the sectors are the same physical size, whereas the physical size (and 
packing of your magnetic bits) of a sector on a PC disk changes from the 
center out.

The Woz originally did this because Shugart wouldn't release specs on 
their floppy disk drives, iirc, so he hacked his own design for the 
original Apple II drives, and came up with this method.

(It's also not dumb, nor all that new, it is, essentially, the same 
mechanism a record player uses, and is used in the CD-red and blue book 
definitions)


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019696542.4978.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260840130.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Anthony:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Sure, congress is theoretically able to reinstate the draft.  They're just
> vanishingly unlikely to want to.

 The latrine-O-gram I heard was that it is just a vote of congress to
restablish the draft. An AYE/NAY vote. I can be very wrong on this point.

 Anyway FWIW I gave up a sole surviving son deferment to enlist. Thought
at the time it was the right thing to do. <1968>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260840130.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019777316.9882.ajackson@ping>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link writes:
> Hoi Anthony:
> 
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> > Sure, congress is theoretically able to reinstate the draft.  They're
> > just vanishingly unlikely to want to.
> 
>  The latrine-O-gram I heard was that it is just a vote of congress to
> restablish the draft. An AYE/NAY vote. I can be very wrong on this point.

Well, it would probably have to be a bill, like any other, requiring both
houses and a presidential signature.  There's lots of pretty extreme things
congress has the power to do, but that doesn't mean they'll actually do any of
those things.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260858570.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Mikko:

On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> Well, I wouldn't want to be in the field with smokers. It has no good
> points, and many bad.

 It was real nice of the rural VS boys after raiding a supply area to
spend the night lighting up the cigs. The red embers weren't fire flies.
I never heard what the rules by the Lao Dong party of the NVA put down if
anything about the VS and the NVA on smoking. I know that some did and
others didn't. FWIW you can tell the diffeence of cig tobacco by the
smell. Camels are the worse.

> Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even farther with image
> intensifiers. Also, you might want not to leave much stuff around, which
> is quite hard if you have to remember collecting everything you smoke.

 Policing the area is a problem for cig smokers. The cigar smokers I knew
would save the stub. Don'T remember the correct word. I smoked a pipe and
all I needed to do was spead and cover the ash.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:41:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:41:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
References: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC892D7.39DE6B02@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

>      Nice touch!  A steward with odd culinary ideas sounds great.  Have the
> PCs loathe the meals she prepares BUT she also lures lots of high passengers
> aboard with the same.  The PCs Beowulf could get a rep for catering to a
> certain type of traveller; they pay well and are just annoying enough to
> make the PCs batty.
>
>      "Hadn't really thought of the ingredient angle.  Thanks Larsen."
>
>      Your very welcome.  Have your PCs set aside a low berth for the Vargr
> steward's "supplies"?  Or rigged up a similar device in the hold or
> engineering?  How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy
> stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other supplies
> and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require PRECISE
> enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the constant risk
> of possible allergens from all those plants wafting their way through the
> ventilation system...

Sweet! Once again thanks. Hee, hee, hee those poor PC's

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #445 - 17 msgs
Message-ID: <34.2697c722.29f9ee48@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/25/2002 5:27:56 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:

For the benefit of those of us who get the digest version, could you please 
put the text in the body of the message instead of attaching it?

All I see is several pages of the following"

>--Message-Boundary-8302
>Content-type: Text/HTML; name="TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class Commerce 
Raider.htm"
>Content-disposition: attachment; filename="TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class 
Commerce Raider.htm"
>Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64
>
>PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcmFuc2l0aW9u
>YWwvL0VOIj4NCjxodG1sIGxhbmc9ImVuIj4NCjxoZWFkPjx0aXRsZT5OZXcgU2hpcCBOYW1l
>PC90aXRsZT48L2hlYWQ+DQo8Ym9keT4NCjxQPjxiPjxjZW50ZXI+PGZvbnQgc2l6ZT0iKzEi
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>bGV4aXR5IDEwKSwgIEVuaCBTZW5zb3JzLCAgQ29tcHV0ZXIgQmFuayAoOHhNYWNyb2ZyYW1l
>LCBIaUNhcCwgSGFyZGVuZWQsIENvbXBsZXhpdHkgMTApLCAgRVcgKEhhcmRlbmVkLCBDb21w
>bGV4aXR5IDEwKS48L1A+DQo8VEFCTEUgV0lEVEg9IjkwJSI+DQo8VFI+DQo8VEggQUxJR049
>IkxFRlQiPjxVPkNvbW11bmljYXRvciBSYW5nZSAobWkpPC9VPjwvVEQ+DQo8VEggQUxJR049


Thanks

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020425.170405.-125887.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> 
> Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three bedroom place in 
> an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of Palmerston North you'd 
> probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> 
> -- 

Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security, and my disability
pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260939420.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:

 So would this tax be followed up with a 1% tax on Fantasy RPGs movies and
literature to help finance the Department of Defense <LOL>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425.170405.-125887.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CC94593.29071.D5590E@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 17:04, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security, and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.

Now that's the trick, isn't it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <200204260023.EZT00242@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link says
> So would this tax be followed up with a 1% tax on Fantasy 
>RPGs movies and literature to help finance the Department of 
>Defense <LOL>
>

Now let's think about that for a minute. A lot of us have 
already made our contribution bodily to various Departments 
of Defense (or War, as the case may be).  

Then there's old gaming codgers like Dunnigan, who are now 
central figures in mainstream DoD circles.  

I think that there should be a "lack of imagination" tax.  If 
you spend more on movies, television, and pop music than you 
do on science fiction books and role playing games, then you 
should be required to pay a 25% tax on movies, television, 
and pop music, the proceeds of which should be paid to the 
people who bring you science fiction books and role playing 
games.


We can certainly think up a complicated formula for payment, 
based on the popularity of your work over the years.
________________
There's a man who leads a life of danger
To everyone he meets he stays a stranger
With every move he makes another chance he takes 
Odds are he won't live to see tomorrow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 25 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
References: <20020425222704.BE24927AE3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC8A8A1.B8979294@earthlink.net>

Rupert Boleyn posted:
> 
> On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:48, wombat@premier.net wrote:
> 
> > Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my
> > designs for _Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).
> >  Note that all three of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry
> > NPAW spinal mounts; I've never been a big fan of meson guns.
> > Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of meson
> > guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that ecological
> > niche.
> 
> I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
> really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.

First of all, thank you to all of those who replied. Patrik, I'm
going to mine your site this evening for ideas! Your "Recurrent
Glory"-class is positively stunning.

As for meson guns..yeah, I never liked 'em. Never, that is, until
I saw Patrik's website. How about a 406 Gj Meson Spinal mount that
can punch through a cruiser's meson screen (and armor) at Long
distance?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 19:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 18:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <18819783.11D89EB1.02280B06@aol.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:
> I think that there should be a "lack of imagination" tax.

It's conversations like this that remind me that Ayn
Rand, cracked as she was, actually had a few useful
insights.

The real reason libertarianism never gets anywhere is
because *everyone* has some tax or rule that they would
like to see imposed by force on their fellow men. We
all have some behavior of which we disapprove, so we
reach for the levers of government in order to outlaw
that behavior for everyone. In short, we have met the
second-handers, and they are us.

(Yes, John, I know you weren't being terribly serious.
You just reminded me of a long-standing pet peeve.)

---
Jon



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
In-Reply-To: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>
References: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020426125234.A14613@freeman.little-possums.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy
> stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other
> supplies and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require
> PRECISE enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the
> constant risk of possible allergens from all those plants wafting
> their way through the ventilation system...

Oy!  Stop giving my GM nasty ideas!

My character already has a single-occupancy stateroom with dozens of
exotic plants, special lighting conditions, some with individual
atmospheres, and the cabin *does* have tuned gravity.  Our current
situation has some type of lifeform running around the ship, regarding
which one character has already had suspicions about where it might
have come from.  We don't need allergens as well!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
References: <18819783.11D89EB1.02280B06@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006101c1ecd1$c51ce610$9307b286@Shane>

> The real reason libertarianism never gets anywhere is
> because *everyone* has some tax or rule that they would
> like to see imposed by force on their fellow men.

We do?  Damn, I'd better come up with one quickly or I'll be a *no-one*.
Oh wait.. I already am. :)
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Member of the general public since 1976
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
References: <20425.124254.1N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <001401c1ecd2$fada91c0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>

<snip>

> Matt Bond wrote:
> > Assuming the Cutter has already spent 8 G-Hours burning and is coasting
when
> > the Broadsword Jumps in at relative rest, just as the Cutter passes it.
>
> That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
> emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.

And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that IMTU
while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
calculable duration.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:39:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:39:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
References: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com> <20020426125234.A14613@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <006901c1ecd2$f537b2c0$9307b286@Shane>

Tim wrote:
> My character already has a single-occupancy stateroom with dozens of
> exotic plants, special lighting conditions, some with individual
> atmospheres, and the cabin *does* have tuned gravity.  Our current
> situation has some type of lifeform running around the ship, regarding
> which one character has already had suspicions about where it might
> have come from.  We don't need allergens as well!

"What am I, a biologist now?  How was I meant to know the captain was
allergic to cyanide gas?"
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Trying to plead his case from the wrong side of the
airlock hatch
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:53:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:53:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <17d.7662cf6.29fa26e8@aol.com>

"Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> writes:

>We, the viewers, keep seeing special and unusual cases.
>For example, _USS Enterprise_ (from the old series) was one
>of only twelve Constitution-class cruisers, and such ships
>were the most prestigious ships in Galaxy Exploration Command,
>which was the most prestigious division of Starfleet.  The
>crews of these special ships were officers from Captain
>down to bottle-washer.

Heh. I'm of the opinion that in Star Fleet, Ensigns are a mis-translation of 
the old Terran naval tradition, since in ST they seem to be what you "run up 
the flagpole to see who shoots back"...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 22:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 21:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <20020425.213237.-125945.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 23:43:36 EDT GypsyComet@aol.com writes:
> "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> writes:
> 
> >We, the viewers, keep seeing special and unusual cases.
> >For example, _USS Enterprise_ (from the old series) was one
> >of only twelve Constitution-class cruisers, and such ships
> >were the most prestigious ships in Galaxy Exploration Command,
> >which was the most prestigious division of Starfleet.  The
> >crews of these special ships were officers from Captain
> >down to bottle-washer.
> 
> Heh. I'm of the opinion that in Star Fleet, Ensigns are a 
> mis-translation of 
> the old Terran naval tradition, since in ST they seem to be what you 
> "run up  the flagpole to see who shoots back"...
> 
> GC

There were plenty of enlisted personnel in all of the ST series, but they
were the extras, and the ones who were killed off in battles. And don't
forget the most famous enlisted man Chief O'brian.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 22:49:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 21:49:06 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <F182WZbQLbzjADMBLxt00008700@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020425223624.044bbc10@rollanet.org>

At 08:56 AM 4/25/02, you wrote:
>John Groth <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
>
>This may not be accurate, as I'm drawing on secondary sources
>(FASA's Star Trek RPG) for this...
>
>
>As I said, this is material from a secondary source, so it
>may be inaccurate.  It may even be a whole-cloth creation
>of the game designers, rather than a report of the actual
>organization of Gene Rodenberry's Starfleet.
>
>Walt Smith
>Firelock on DALNet

 From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry 
(copyright 1968)

     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 22:55:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Thu Apr 25 21:55:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020425.213237.-125945.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020425.213237.-125945.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <200204260054080915.01D811E7@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

Traveller's Aide #1 for T20 and Classic Traveller is now available, along=
 with subscriptions.
http://www.TravellerRPG.com


Hunter




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 23:08:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr 25 22:08:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: shadowcat's ships (was TML digest, Vol 2002 #445 - 17 msgs)
In-Reply-To: <34.2697c722.29f9ee48@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIEDMAA.tml@downport.com>

To facilitate your enjoyment of shadowcat's ship conversions, the Aslan
Ambassador has kindly allowed him to park them in his pocket empire:

http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
>
> For the benefit of those of us who get the digest version, could
> you please
> put the text in the body of the message instead of attaching it?


Unfortunately, placing them in the body wraps them in all of the wrong
places. All 72 (so far) of his recent conversions are there in HTML and
'GURPS Traveller Ships' (.gtv) versions.

For those who have been following, this is the direct link to his
most-recent offering
http://www.pocketempires.com/fafrhd/TL12_800-ton_Chameleon-class_Commerce_Ra
ider.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 01:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Fri Apr 26 00:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC96FDE.27660.37E569C@localhost>

I think the most interesting aspect of this proposed tax is that it 
necessitates a definition of what exactly "science fiction" is.  Is 
/Gravity's Rainbow/ SF?  Is /Flowers for Algernon/?  What about 
Michael Crichton's stuff?  And maybe some drek would be 
exempted as being science fantasy -- the Star Wars franchise, 
/ID4/, etc.

<facetious>
Good, no more petty squabbling among people who actually read 
the stuff, now we're going to get a nice, clear government definition!
</facetious>

-- Rachel

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 02:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 26 01:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote :

> Well, I wouldn't want to be in the field with smokers.
> It has no good points, and many bad.

Oh, I don't know. If I was "in the field" I would be more
concerned about my personal survival than the rest of the unit,
and if the others were smokers that makes them bigger targets
than I, presumably increasing my chances of survival!
<grin>

> Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even
> farther with image intensifiers. Also, you might
> want not to leave much  stuff around, which
> is quite hard if you have to remember collecting
> everything you smoke.

I always remember the surprise I got when it was demonstratd to
me that a person taking even a clandestine puff on a
hand-shielded cigarette can be seen from over 2kms with the naked
eye in the dark. The flare of a lit match is even more visible.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:10:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:10:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017438121.4165.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20425.131430.3i5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> And the output of the mining won't be, for example, lanthanun ore, it will
>> be lanthanum... the availability of cheap fusion power makes refining the
>> ore at site then shipping the refined product cost effective compared to
>> shipping ore to a larger refinery elsewhere.
>
> Sort of true.  However, there's no real reason to have multiple small
> mines in a system; just use one big mining ship, reduce asteroids to
> rubble one at a time, and move on.

Actually, this is a flaw in the background. With cheap fusion power,
and especially if the fusion is based on continuous fusion in a plasma
(confined magnetically or by a combo of magnetic and gravitic forces)
you shovel rock in one end and get isotopically pure elements out the
other. The stuff you don't have much need for (like silicon and
aluminum, which "rock" has *way* too much of) you just combinine with
the (way too much) oxygen to form convenient lumps of quartz and
sapphire. 

You'll wind up with megatons of "common" elements, and tons of rare
ones... 

Assuming abundances similar to the Earth's crust, from 10 million tons
of rock (a cube about 1.5 km on a side), you'll get:

        mg/kg			yeild
        -------		----------------------
O	4.61e5		4.6e9	 4,600 kilotons
Si	2.82e5		2.82e9	 2,820 kilotons
Al	8.23e4		8.23e8	   823 kilotons
Fe	5.63e4		5.63e8	   563 kilotons
Ca	4.15e4		4.15e8	   415 kilotons
Na	2.36e4		2.36e8	   236 kilotons
Mg	2.33e4		2.33e8     233 kilotons
K	2.09e4		2.09e8	   209 kilotons
Ti	5.65e3		5.56e7	55,600 tons
H	1.4e3		1.4e7	14,000 tons
P	1.05e3		1.05e7	10,500 tons
Mn	9.50e2		9.50e6	 9,500 tons
F	5.85e2		5.85e6	 5,850 tons
Ba	4.25e2		4.25e6	 4,250 tons
Sr	3.70e2		3.70e6	 3,700 tons
S	3.5e2		3.5e6	 3,500 tons
C	2.00e2		2.00e6	 2,000 tons
Zr	1.65e2		1.65e6	 1,650 tons
Cl	1.45e2		1.45e6	 1,450 tons
V	1.20e2		1.20e6	 1,200 tons
Cr	1.02e2		1.02e6	 1,020 tons
Rb	9.0e1		9.0e5	   900 tons
Ni	8.4e1		8.4e5	   840 tons
Zn	7.0e1		7.0e5	   700 tons
Ce	6.65e1		6.65e5	   665 tons
Cu	6.0e1		6.0e5	   600 tons
Nd	4.15e1		4.15e5	   415 tons
La	3.9e1		3.9e5	   390 tons
Y	3.3e1		3.3e5	   330 tons
Co	2.5e1		2.5e5	   250 tons
Sc	2.2e1		2.2e5	   220 tons
Li	2.0e1		2.0e5	   200 tons
Nb	2.0e1		2.0e5	   200 tons
Ga	1.9e1		1.9e5	   190 tons
N	1.9e1		1.9e5	   190 tons
Pb	1.4e1		1.4e5	   140 tons
B	1e1		1e5	   100 tons
Th	9.6		9.6e4   96,000 kilos
Pr	9.2		9.2e4	92,000 kilos
Sm	7.05		7.05e4	70,500 kilos
Gd	6.2		6.2e4   62,000 kilos
Dy	5.2		5.2e4   52,000 kilos
Ar	3.5		3.5e4   35,000 kilos
Er	3.5		3.5e4   35,000 kilos
Yb	3.2		3.2e4   32,000 kilos
Hf	3.0		3.0e4   30,000 kilos
Cs	3		3e4     30,000 kilos
Be	2.8		2.8e4   28,000 kilos
U	2.7		2.7e4   27,000 kilos
Br	2.4		2.4e4   24,000 kilos
Sn	2.3		2.3e4   23,000 kilos
Eu	2.0		2.0e4   20,000 kilos
Ta	2.0		2.0e4   20,000 kilos
As	1.8		1.8e4   18,000 kilos
Ge	1.5		1.5e4   15,000 kilos
Ho	1.3		1.3e4   13,000 kilos
W	1.25		1.25e4  12,500 kilos
Mo	1.2		1.2e4   12,000 kilos
Tb	1.2		1.2e4   12,000 kilos
Tl	8.5e-1		8.5e3	 8,000 kilos
Lu	8e-1		8e3      8,000 kilos
Tm	5.2e-1		5.2e3    5,200 kilos
I	4.5e-1		4.5e3	 4,500 kilos
In	2.5e-1		2.5e3	 2,500 kilos
Sb	2e-1		2e3	 2,000 kilos
Cd	1.5e-1		1.5e3	 1,500 kilos
Hg	8.5e-2		8.5e2	   850 kilos
Ag	7.5e-2		7.5e2	   750 kilos
Se	5e-2		5e2	   500 kilos
Pd	1.5e-2		1.5e2	   150 kilos
Bi	8.5e-3		8.5e1	    85 kilos
He	8e-3		8e1	    80 kilos
Ne	5e-3		5e1         50 kilos
Pt	5e-3		5e1         50 kilos
Os	1.5e-3		1.5e1	    15 kilos
Ir	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Rh	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Ru	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Te	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Re	7e-4		7	     7 kilos
Xe	3e-5		3e-1	   300 grams
Pa	1.4e-6		1.4e-2	    14 grams
Ra	9e-7		9e-3	     9 grams
Ac	5.5e-10		5.5e-6	 5,500 micrograms
Po	2e-10		2e-6	 2,000 micrograms
Rn	4e-13		4e-9	     4 micrograms

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote Clan Trader
Message-ID: <3CC92AA7.7B2468DE@mindspring.com>

Grote Clan Trader
Most clans make their living by operating free traders or the 300 dT
Grote Clan trader. These clan vessels serve along carefully
planned and investigated trade loops that service dozens of smaller
worlds. A Grote trader showing up twice a year may be the
only "scheduled" trader some worlds see. Clan members may have been
anywhere between the Far Frontiers, Vland, and the
Trans-Rift jump 5 route.

 Craft ID:         Grote Clan Trader, TL 11, 147.229 Mcr, Quantity
discount 132.506 MCr

 Hull:         270/675, Disp=300, Config=Cone 2Sl, Armour=Crystaliron
40E, Loaded=4521.07, Unloaded=3253.106

 Power:          Primary 8/16, Fusion=726 Mw, Duration=30days
                      Secondary 12/24, Fusion=1062 Mw, Duration=3days,
Scoops, Purifiers 24 Hours
                     ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=34 days

 Loco:          8/16 Jump=2, 5/10 Maneuver=1G, Agility=1, NOE=150 Kph

 Comm:         Radio=System x 1, Laser =System x 1

 Sensors:       A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1
                     Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=-  POP=-  PES=R
PEP=-

 Off:         3 Hardpoints, 3 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  Triple Laser-7        x 1 in 1 battery

                                      Triple Sand-10      x 1 in 1
battery
                                      Triple Missile-7     x 1 in 1
Battery
                        Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Missile   2    -     -
                                          1
                             Laser     3    -    -
                                           1
                             Sand      4    -    -
                                           1

 Def:            Def DM= 4

 Control:     Computer=Model 3fib x 3, Panels=Dynamic Linked x 369, HUD
x 5

 Accom:     Officer=1 Crew=7 ( Bridge=2 Engineering=2 Gunners=2
Command=1 Stewards=1 Frozen=8 ) Passengers:
                 High=10  Staterooms=10 Small Staterooms=8, Low
Berths=8, Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
                  inertial comp, Airlocks x 2

 Subcraft:  Air/Raft x1(4 dton, TL 11)

 Other:      Cargo=1376.7 Kl/102 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=907 Kl/67
tons, ObjSize=Average, Ram time= 1.1hours


Author: Alan Spik
Adapted from
Ship: Clan Menzies
Class: Grote Clan Trader
Type: Merchant
Architect: William R. Cameron

USP
         MP-32212B1-040000-30002-0 MCr 162.134 300 Tons
Bat Bear             1     1   1   Crew: 8
Bat                     1     1   1   TL: 11

Cargo: 100.000 Passengers: 10 Frozen Watch Fuel: 66.000 EP: 6.000
Agility: 1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 1.621   Cost in Quantity: MCr 129.707

Note:

     Price increased slightly.
     Computer model increased to 3/fib as 2/fib has not enough control
points. I put five HUD onboard one each for gunners,
     Bridge crew and the commander.
     Passenger get normal Staterooms, Crew have individual small
Staterooms
     Power increased to 7.2 EP to cover weapons and agility. Plant split
into a primary and secondary for 30 days normal
     operation, agility 0, and a 3day combat/agility boost
     Added Air/Raft

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:45:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:45:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote Outrim Jade Patrol craft
Message-ID: <3CC92C3E.F65CA749@mindspring.com>

Grote Outrim Jade Class Escort Patrol
    The Outrim Jade class is Grotes answer to the Escort vessel for the
Merchant Fleet. In addition to escorting the legendary
Grotian Black Ships, they can be found patrolling merchant routes or
hunting the occasional transgressor against the sanctity of
the traders.
 Craft ID:    Grote Outrim Jade class patrol vessel, TL 13, 613.028 Mcr,
Quantity discount 551.725 MCr

 Hull:       540/1350, Disp=600, Config=Dome/Disc 6Sl,
Armour=Crystaliron 52E, Loaded=11836.149,
              Unloaded=11377.19

Power:       Primary 29/58, Fusion=3,978 Mw, Duration=30 days, Scoops,
Purifiers 24 Hours
                 Secondary 51/102, Fusion=6,840, Duration=3 days
                 ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=103 days

 Loco:          22/44, Jump=2, 43/86, Maneuver=3G, Agility=0/3

 Comm:          Radio=System x1, Laser=System x 1

 Sensors:          A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1, Hi-pen
Densinometer(1m) x 1, Neutrino(1Gw) x 1
                       Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=F  POP=F
PES=R  PEP=F

 Off:         6 Hardpoints, 6 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  Triple BLaser-7     x 2 in 2 battery
                                      Triple Sand-10      x 2 in 2
battery
                                      Triple Missile-7     x 2 in 2
Battery
                        Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Missile   3    -     -
                                          2
                             Laser     4    -    -
                                          2
                             Sand      4    -    -
                                          2

 Def:         Def DM=9

 Control:          Computer=Model 5fib x 3, Panels=Dynamic Linked x
1323, HUholoD x 9, Large Holodisplay x1

 Accom:      Officer=5 Crew=25 ( Bridge=3 Engineering=4 Gunners=4
Flight=4 Troops=10 Command=4 Stewards=1)
                  Staterooms=5, Small Staterooms=25, Emergency Low
Berths=6, Env=basic env, basic ls,
                  extended ls,  grav plates,  inertial comp, Airlocks x
4

 Subcraft:         Gig x1(20 dton, Crew=3, TL=13)

 Other:          Cargo=215 Kl/15.9 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=3485
Kl/258 tons, ObjSize=Large, Ram time= 2.2 hours


Author: Alan Spik
Adapted from
Ship: Outrim Ruby
Class: Outrim Jade
Type: Escort/Strike Patroller
Architect: Shemp

USP
         EP-66335C2-440000-40003-0 MCr 548.576 600 Tons
Bat Bear             2     2   2   Crew: 25
Bat                     2     2   2   TL: 13

Cargo: 10.000 Emergency Low: 6 Fuel: 210.000 EP: 30.000 Agility: 3
Marines: 10
Craft: 1 x 20T Pinnace
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x 1G Maneuver Drive 1 x Jump 1 Drive 1 x Factor 1 Power Plant
1 x
Model/1 Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 5.486   Cost in Quantity: MCr 438.861

Notes:

      As specified, w/o backups and increasing the power plant to
achieve agility 3 the vessel has a volume deficit of 150
     dtons. I changed the power plant to a primary/Secondary (Normal
operations/Weapons & Screens) power system 30/3
     days total 43+ EP ( With the below changes/notes this brings cargo
to 15.9 tons)
     Computer increased to 5 fib to cover control points
     Crew increased to 30 by crew calculation
     9 HUholoD installed for Gunners, Bridge Crew and some of command
crew. Large holodisplay installed
     Assume Officers are in standard staterooms Crew are in small
Staterooms
     In addition to A-EMS and P-EMS I installed TL appropriate Hi-pen
Densinometer and Neutrino detector
     Price increased
     Pinnaces in the OTU and IMTU are 40 dtons. I substituted a 20 dton
Gig.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote Black Ship
Message-ID: <3CC92D0B.F946A2A4@mindspring.com>

Grote Black Ship
The Grote Black Ship is the 57th century version of the containerized
cargo ship. They make a bee-line to the entrepot system,
stopping only long enough to refuel. In transit to their destination,
Black Ships refuel only at Class A or B ports in trustworthy
systems. Otherwise the escorting vessels act as fuel lighters during
frontier refueling. The wilderness refueling points may be
very distant gas giants, Kuiper belt objects, or random comets. A system
may never know that a Black Ship convoy has
passed through. They hump precious cargo and replacement crew from Grote
to whatever system has been designated the
sector entrepot that year. The clan traders moving along their trade
loops all eventually visit the designated entrepot system to
pick up new crew and high TL goodies. The boost in trade leads systems
in these sectors to compete among each other to host
the Grote entrepot. The Black ship is unusual in that it is built from
high tech parts imported to Grote by

 Craft ID:         Grote Black Ship, TL 13, 2403.599 Mcr, Quantity
discount 2163.239 MCr

 Hull:      6300/15750, Disp=7,000, Config=Irregular 7Usl,
Armour=Superdense 40E, Loaded=76334.002,
              Unloaded=53789.964

 Power:          Primary 125/250, Fusion=16,848 Mw, Duration=30 days,
Scoops, Purifiers 24 Hours
                     Secondary 113/226, Fusion=15210 Mw, Duration=3
Days( Weapons, Screens and Agility)
                     ExtEnd excludes: (1g), =62 days

 Loco:          315/630 Jump=4, 126/252, Maneuver=1G, Agility=0

 Comm:          Radio=System x 1, Laser =System x 1

 Sensors:   A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1, Hi-pen
Densinometer(1m) x 1, Neutrino(1Gw) x 1
                Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=F  POP=F  PES=R  PEP=F

 Off:         70 Hardpoints, 70 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  Triple Laser-13        x 10 in 10
battery
                                      Triple Sand-10      x 30 in 10
battery
                                      Triple Missile-13     x 30 in 3
Battery
                        Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Missile   7    -     -
                                          3
                             Laser     4    -    -
                                           10
                             Sand      6    -    -
                                           10

 Def:         Def DM= 6, Nuclear Damper=F3

 Control:          Computer=Model 6fib x 3, Panels=Holodynamic Linked x
4419, HUholoD x 64, Large holodisplay x 1

 Accom:          Officer=17 Crew=152 ( Bridge=10 Engineering=14
Maintenance=1 Gunners=47 Flight=10 Command=14
                      Stewards=3 Medical=70) Passengers: Low=1400
Staterooms=17 Small Staterooms=152, Low Berths=1400,
                      Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
inertial comp, Airlocks x 14

 Subcraft:         Gig x 1 (20 dton, Crew=3, TLC), Modular Cutter x 2
(50 dton, Crew=2, TLC)

 Other:          Cargo=20375.9 Kl/1509.3 tons, EMLevel=Moderate,
Fuel=30973 Kl/2294 tons, ObjSize=Large

Author: Alan Spik
Created from a discussion with Mr. LE Whipsnade

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:51:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:51:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Grotes Clan Shps
Message-ID: <3CC92DBB.6AA8007C@mindspring.com>

Hi all!
The vessels that follow were converted from LEW's HG2 designs of the
Grote Clan vessels.Or created from discussions concerning Grote and ways
to kill the PC's......I mean make the game more enjoyable.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC96FDE.27660.37E569C@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEGPHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rachel Kronick wrote :

> I think the most interesting aspect of this proposed
> tax is that it  necessitates a definition of what
> exactly "science fiction" is.

Good point.

> Is /Gravity's Rainbow/ SF?  Is /Flowers for Algernon/?

I'd say yes to both personally.

> What about Michael Crichton's stuff?

Yes, definitely. At least Andromeda Strain, and the Jurassic Park
stuff anyway.

> And maybe some drek would be exempted as being science
> fantasy -- the Star Wars franchise, /ID4/, etc.

That's probably the market they want to tax because it's so
profitable!

Would '1984' count as science fiction seeing as it is in the
past?
Or "2001" ?
How about Harry Turtledove's "The Guns of the South" ?
Or Steampunk (like the recent "Wild Wild West"?
And what about Yeats' "Erewhon" ?
Or Swift's "Gulliver's Travels" ?

Is "The Cube" SF or horror ?
How about "Event Horizon", "Pitch Black", or even "Alien"?

Deciding this could keep the US legislators busy for many months.

What a great idea this is, they could then start funding
hospitals with a tax on hospital dramas, and police forces with a
tax on police shows, and prisons with a tax on the Sopranos, and
mental institutions with a tax on "Fraser" (or perhaps any sitcom
for that matter, and those reality TV shows to boot).

> <facetious>
> Good, no more petty squabbling among people who actually read
> the stuff, now we're going to get a nice, clear
> government definition!
> </facetious>

That would probably be the best thing to come from this.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 05:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 04:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <3CC898A7.24874.A0B7D7@localhost>
Message-ID: <20426.032205.4g1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 25 Apr 2002 at 1:34, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
>> > least keep the false positive rate down.
>> 
>> You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
>> entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
>> take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
>> have to be present at the trial *there*. 
>
> Well sue the originating organisation. Then sue 'em for libel in that 
> they spread false infermation about you.

Trouble is, that doesn't work if it's a police department making an
"honest mistake". As I've said, over the years comp.risks has had posts
about a number errors of that sort.

The best you can get from the originating department is for them to fix
*their* records. They are *not* responsible for other departments
picking up the erroneous "want" and sticking it in their own databases.

You really and truly *do* have to sue each and every department,
individually.

Now in the "private mall, using this for security" scenario, then you
have a *much* better chance of winning a suit. But if it's a police
agency, it's a *lot* harder.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 05:21:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 04:21:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <001401c1ecd2$fada91c0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20426.031637.5Y6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>
> <snip>
>
>> Matt Bond wrote:
>> > Assuming the Cutter has already spent 8 G-Hours burning and is coasting
> when
>> > the Broadsword Jumps in at relative rest, just as the Cutter passes it.
>>
>> That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
>> emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.
>
> And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that IMTU
> while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
> calculable duration.

Pardon me for not keeping track of the ways your TU differs from the
OTU over the time that's passed since those posts...

If your TU differs from the "standard" one, then you need to
*explicitly* state applicable differences or live with people assuming
that anything you haven't specificly mentioned works "normally". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 05:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 04:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (OT/spam) FS: TSR's ALTERNITY gamebooks
Message-ID: <200204261140.g3QBeuG09224@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

  FWIW, if anyone is interested in space opera I've getting
rid of a largish collection of TSR's (or WotC - take your 
pick...) ALTERNITY rules and supplemnts, & STARDRIVE and 
DARK MATTER settings. Replies to me, _not_ the TML :)

  Steven Hudson - shudson@lightspeed.ca 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 06:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr 26 05:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise (With my Jump Durat
 ion rules reiterated)
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8B@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> 
> In mail you write:
<snip>
> > And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you 
> would know that IMTU
> > while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a 
> predictable and
> > calculable duration.
> 
> Pardon me for not keeping track of the ways your TU differs from the
> OTU over the time that's passed since those posts...
> 
> If your TU differs from the "standard" one, then you need to
> *explicitly* state applicable differences or live with people assuming
> that anything you haven't specificly mentioned works "normally". 

Well as I had mentioned it detail both in earlier parts of the piracy
thread *and* the astogation thread, I got tired of writing it out in
every post... 

To reiterate:

The only difference in my universe is that rather then rolling jump
duration *after* jump has commenced, and the duration being unknown
until just before emergence, I roll *before* jump, and the duration is
calculable by the astrogator prior to jump starting. Any other vessel
initiating jump from within a few thousand km of the jump intitation
point heading to within a few thousand km of the jump exit poit within a
few hours will have the same duration (to within a few minutes or less).
Jumps to or from diffent points, or at different times will have
different jump durations (ie roll a new duration). 

A skilled astrogator can calculate the jump duration for increasingly
distant start times, and so may be able to identify a quicker jump
duration 'window' occurring in several hours time that will result in
earlier arrival time than jumping immediately (ie roll a number of jump
'window' durations equal to the astrogators skill. Each window is
several hours long (somwhere between 4 and 6 seems appropriate). So you
if you have skill 4 you know *in advance* the jump duration if you jump
now, in 4 hours, 8 hours, 12 hours, or 16 hours time etc. 

Oh, and an 'astrogator' of skill 0 gets no advance rolls, so is stuck
with whatever jump duration he rolls on initiating Jump. He is unskilled
enough to calculate a jump duration before conditions have changed such
that the calculated time is moot. He still knows what time they will
emerge from jump though, as he can caulate the exit time and get the
answer a few hours into the jump as he knows what conditions were on
jump initiation...

What are the benefits of my interpretation of when jump duration is
rolled? Coordinated Fleet Movements and improved value of astrogation
skill. Both of which I find desirable. Downsides to my interpretation?
none that I can think of. I still retain the canonicity of random jump
duration, only my interpretaion of when the random duration is rolled is
different. 

And I'm hard pressed to recall any GDW canon (as opposed to possible
Gurps or DGP canon) which states that the rolled duration is unknown
until exit, just that there is a variable duration to jumps and that
they do not all take 7 days, but instead take roughly 6-8 days and a
roll is made to determine exact duration. Indeed I recall mention in
some GDW products that Fleets can arrive simultaneaously, which must
either mean jump duration is known in advance so that each ship can jump
in staggered intervals to co-ordinate arrival times, or all ships in a
given vicintity at a given time jumping to the same destination have the
same jump duration, or indeed, as I have interpreted it, jump duration
is both known in advance and is constant for a given jump at a given
time.

I await your comments with both bated breath and asbestos undies...

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 08:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 26 07:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On:  Glenn Grant's Smart Fabrics!
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1019830438.0.01037600@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Some years back, there was a discussion on the TML of the use of optic technology to weave a "smart" fabric. It was authored by Glenn Grant with the input of Rob O'Connor, Mikko, and others of this list. The results can be found on our mail host's wonderful Traveller Central website.

Well...

Today, ABCNews.com has posted a story of a Real Life(tm) fabric fiber (fibre, for those across the pond) that incorporates optic technology. The story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/CuttingEdge/cuttingedge020426.html

The team that developed the new fiber/fibre is part of the new Institute for Soldier Nanotechnology at MIT. Cost of the process is 10 U.S. cents per meter.

Reflec, anyone? 

I know, I know. We may not be there yet, but...

David Smart
("We Want Jumpdrive! We Want Jumpdrive!")

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 08:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 26 07:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Message-ID: <F257P5o7P6umLrXWq0G0000075e@hotmail.com>

From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>

     "The vessels that follow were converted from LEW's HG2 designs of the 
Grote Clan vessels.  Or created from discussions concerning Grote and ways 
to kill the PC's... I mean make the game more enjoyable."


Ladies and Gentlemen,

     I do hope you enjoy Mr. Spik's masterful MT conversions of two ships 
from a long ago campaign.  I know I have.
     His efforts gave me a new appreciation of MT's ship design rules.  I 
would have never thought it possible to do what he has done.
     For those of you who may be interested, here's a little background on 
the (supposed) thought processes that went into the original designs.

     Both the Trader and Patroller first saw life as Book2 designs.  In the 
case of the Trader, interpolation of the hull and engineering tabels was 
required.  The jump between Book2 and HG2 presented little difficulty.
     The Trader was an attempt to fashion a jump2 Beowulf.  The Patroller 
was an attempt to create a more "manageable" Broadsword.  While both vessels 
"fit" into a Whipsnadian TU, whether they could actually work in other TU's 
is debatable.  You can already see the problems one has recreating them in 
MT terms, whether they can built in FF&S1/2 or GT is unknown.  Indeed, 
whether the Trader can break even in GT:FT is unknown.
     In the few campaigns in which they they appeared, I never bothered to 
fully detail the Black Ships.  The PCs never served aboard one, visited one, 
or saw one, except at a great distance.  The Black Ships were a bit of 
background "chrome", like the omnipresent, but rarely seen, megacorp 
megafreighters.  Mr. Spik's wonderful design for the Black Ships now resides 
permanently on my hard drive and back-up discs.


     Flexiable Batteries

     I should also fill you in on a Whipsnadian house rule regarding 
batteries.  A flexiable battery structure was part of my campaign, 
especially aboard naval and PC-crewed vessels.  Put simply, during each 
combat round similiarly armed turrets could be grouped into batteries as the 
players saw fit.  Thus turrets can be split up into whichever battery 
grouping the PCs deem fit for the situation.  All the laser turrets can be 
consolidated for a better offensive strike or parceled out for more 
anti-missile chances.  You can combine several missile turrets into a more 
powerful salvo or split them into smaller salvos to swamp any anti-missile 
fire.
     In the case of the Outrim Jade, which sports two turrets with 3 beam 
lasers apiece, that vessel could either fire a single battery with an USP 
rating of 5 (6 lasers for 4, with +1 TL13 bonus) or two batteries with USP 
ratings of 4 (3 lasers apiece for 3, with the +1 TL13 bonus).  Obviously the 
missile turrets and sandcasters can be "flexed" in the same manner.
     Software, hardware, and manning requirements for the batteries/turrets 
gets a little squirrelly.  By GM fiat, I simply decreed that naval vessels 
had the software, hardware, and personnel necessary to "flex" their 
batteries into any configuration desired.  Getting the necessary software 
and hardware to do the same was a campaign goal for my PCs.  IIRC, I forced 
the PCs to set aside ~0.25 dT per turret for the mechanical end of things, 
plus another 1 dT on the bridge.
     The software costs were handled by requiring them to purchase all new 
offensive and defensive programming for the weapon types and abilities they 
wished to "flex".  Thus, to flex missile turrets they'd need both a new 
launch and target program.  To add gunner skills to the flexed batteries, a 
new interact program would be required.  To perform flexed anti-missile 
fire, a new program for that.  And so forth.
     Manning requires a bit more explanation.  Obviously, any turret used 
alone requires a gunner.  But only one gunner is needed for any battery.  To 
further confuse matters, any battery consisting of any number of turrets 
could be fired from a specific bridge station by a crewmember dedicated to 
that task for that combat round.
     Taking the Outrim Jade as an example; that vessel has two triple laser 
turrets.  One turret could be fired alone locally or in a battery from 
either the bridge or one of the turrets in that battery.  The gunner 
performing that action would be unable to do anything else during that 
combat round, i.e. DC work.
     This bit of Whipsnadian silliness also allowed the PCs to put gunnery 
skills to better use.  A PC with a high gunnery skill need not be shackled 
to a particular turret.  Instead, she could man a bridge station and take 
command of specific turrets or batteries depending on the situation.  My PCs 
seemed to enjoy the "extra" control in combat situations and it's all about 
having fun, right?

     I'm sure all of this will excite comments, mostly along the lines of 
"You're really #&$@#&$ nuts, Larsen", and I look forward to hearing them.  
Unfortunately, I will be away until late Sunday on business.  If your 
comments go unremarked over the next 72 hours, that is the reason why.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 09:12:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 08:12:44 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020425223624.044bbc10@rollanet.org>
References: <F182WZbQLbzjADMBLxt00008700@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426075429.009ed120@mindspring.com>

At 10:49 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
> From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry 
> (copyright 1968)
>
>     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
> only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
> goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
> Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer."

An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS.

Of course, it goes along nicely with ST's socialist view.. in the Soviet 
military all the technical jobs were held by officers.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 09:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 26 08:53:04 2002
Subject: Ship's weapons (was Re: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?)
Message-ID: <12b.105c4b92.29fad1cc@aol.com>

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In a message dated 4/26/02 2:10:03 AM Central Daylight Time, several 
anti-Meson opinions get flexed:
> 
> > I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
> > really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.
> 

That is a pretty good question, isn't it?  
   In its nondestructive form, it can be manipulated to be used as both an 
undetectable _and_ unjammable communications source, while in its _far_ more 
popular (and destructive) application, it can be manipulated in such a way as 
to entirely _bypass_ an otherwise solid hull to magically cause explosions 
_inside_ a target.
   The entire "it just does" concept (talk about handwaving) associated with 
Meson Technology has never sat right with me, and I've never used it IMTU.
   So the above question, along with several different takes on Starship 
Combat and weaponry on the web, got me to wondering about just _what_ 
technologies (whether canon or not) folks use or don't use.
   Illuminate me :)

  -Ken Murphy-
   
"When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer 
for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out 
of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God 
Almighty have mercy on you!" 

Legion of the Damned
Sven Hassel   


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/26/02 2:10:03 AM Central Daylight Time, several anti-Meson opinions get flexed:
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BR>&gt; I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
<BR>&gt; really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>That is a pretty good question, isn't it? &nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;In its nondestructive form, it can be manipulated to be used as both an undetectable _and_ unjammable communications source, while in its _far_ more popular (and destructive) application, it can be manipulated in such a way as to entirely _bypass_ an otherwise solid hull to magically cause explosions _inside_ a target.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">The entire "it just does" concept (talk about handwaving) associated with Meson Technology has never sat right with me, and I've never used it IMTU.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;So the above question, along with several different takes on Starship Combat and weaponry on the web, got me to wondering about just _what_ technologies (whether canon or not) folks use or don't use.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Illuminate me :)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR><P ALIGN=CENTER>"When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God Almighty have mercy on you!" 
<BR><P ALIGN=LEFT>
<BR>Legion of the Damned
<BR>Sven Hassel &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></P></P></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 10:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Apr 26 09:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise (With my Jump Durat ion rules reiterated)
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8B@KARPAD01>
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8B@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <m3d6wmv36q.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> Downsides to my interpretation?  None that I can think of.

I like it in many ways, but it does means that a certain element of
adventure is removed.  That is, imagine that the Flying Wallenda is
fleeing Glisten with a jump-capable patrol boat just behind.  The
Wallenda makes it to 100D and jumps.  The patrol boat--knowing where
the Wallenda is jumping--makes the same jump, and they come out of
J-space at the same time.

Whereas in the traditional interpretation, they come out several hours
apart from one another in the average case.  Which is not a bad thing
for the Wallenda.

-- 
<+>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 10:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Apr 26 09:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
In-Reply-To: <F257P5o7P6umLrXWq0G0000075e@hotmail.com>
References: <F257P5o7P6umLrXWq0G0000075e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m38z7av321.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>      Flexiable Batteries

Brilliant!  I love it.  This should become part of canon, methinks.

-- 
<+>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 10:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 09:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019839692.4851.ajackson@ping>

Frank Pitt writes:
> 
> Oh, I don't know. If I was "in the field" I would be more
> concerned about my personal survival than the rest of the unit,
> and if the others were smokers that makes them bigger targets
> than I, presumably increasing my chances of survival!

Nah.  Increasing your chances of becoming collateral damage of shooting at
them.
> 
> I always remember the surprise I got when it was demonstratd to
> me that a person taking even a clandestine puff on a
> hand-shielded cigarette can be seen from over 2kms with the naked
> eye in the dark. The flare of a lit match is even more visible.

Interesting.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 11:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 10:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <3CC988C2.7060505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Frank Pitt wrote:

> Oh, I don't know. If I was "in the field" I would be more
> concerned about my personal survival than the rest of the unit,
> and if the others were smokers that makes them bigger targets
> than I, presumably increasing my chances of survival!
> <grin>

Only if the other side are snipers and not arty, or air support.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 11:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Apr 26 10:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
Message-ID: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>

> From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:20:51 -0500
> Subject: [TML] second verse same as the first Chameleon
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>
> --Message-Boundary-8302
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-disposition: inline
> Content-description: Attachment information.
>
> The following section of this message contains a file attachment

Shadowcat,

Please stop sending attachements. It fucks up the digest. If the file
you are sending is plain text the easiest way for it to be viewable
by all is to "copy all" from the source file and "paste" into the body 
of the email. If your source file is a binary it shouldn't be sent to
the mailing list at all.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 12:14:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 26 11:14:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEJGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
>entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
>take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
>have to be present at the trial *there*.

That's why we have class actions and contingency fee arrangements.  Whoever
gets misidentified first, please call me.  I'm pretty well connected to both
the police abuse and class action bars.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 12:36:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Fri Apr 26 11:36:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
In-Reply-To: <20020426125234.A14613@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204262034490.309178-100000@svati>

On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

>Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>> How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy
>> stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other
>> supplies and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require
>> PRECISE enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the
>> constant risk of possible allergens from all those plants wafting
>> their way through the ventilation system...
>
>Oy!  Stop giving my GM nasty ideas!

No, no Mr. Whipsnade! Don't listen to Tim, hsi GM likes the nasty
ideas :-)

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 12:40:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr 26 11:40:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
In-Reply-To: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEINDMAA.tml@downport.com>

He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't even know
it was happening. To fix the problem we are posting his ships on a web site
and he will just post the URL. If he can get GTS and Pegasus both to
cooperated, he may post plain text in the body of his messages. Here is the
URL again:

http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd

More GT ships and a load of High Guard designs are uploading... oop, done!
_____________________________________________
The Traveller Web Portal
http://www.downport.com
webmaster@downport.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of David Shayne
> Shadowcat,
>
> Please stop sending attachements.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 13:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Fri Apr 26 12:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
Message-ID: <l03010d02b8ef54d1ed86@[206.224.92.67]>

Two items I thought the folks here might be interested in:

The GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set:

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/anniversaryset/

And the 25th anniversary limited edition hardback: Only one press run,
limited to pre-orders. The cover is black bonded leather, foil stamped with
the Traveller 25th-anniversary seal. A special full-color art page is bound
into the front with the signatures.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/core/

You can make reservations for the hardback for the three weeks prior to its
release, contact orders@sjgames.com for details and an estimated date of
publication.



Loren Wiseman
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/
     SJ Games
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 13:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Apr 26 12:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
References: <20020426190109.0A0CC279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC9A9F9.B79CECC2@ameritech.net>




> From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>

> Subject: RE: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
> Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:38:25 -0400
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't even know
> it was happening. To fix the problem we are posting his ships on a web site
> and he will just post the URL. 

An admirable solution.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 14:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 26 13:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1019852076.0.55530000@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Frankie posted:
>
> Deciding this could keep the US legislators busy for many months.
>
> What a great idea this is, they could then start funding
> hospitals with a tax on hospital dramas, and police forces with a
> tax on police shows, and prisons with a tax on the Sopranos, and
> mental institutions with a tax on "Fraser" (or perhaps any sitcom
> for that matter, and those reality TV shows to boot).

Personally, I'd like to see our wonderfully competent and effective Congress have their salaries tied to taxes received from their episodes on C-SPAN.

The thought of them having to come up with ways to capture and hold the common person's interest in Congressional legislative activities that Congress really doesn't want general oversight on tickles me to no end.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 15:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 14:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
In-Reply-To: <l03010d02b8ef54d1ed86@[206.224.92.67]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426145538.009eabf0@mindspring.com>

At 02:07 PM 4/26/02 -0500, you wrote:
>The GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set:
>
>http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/anniversaryset/
>
>And the 25th anniversary limited edition hardback: Only one press run,
>limited to pre-orders. The cover is black bonded leather, foil stamped with
>the Traveller 25th-anniversary seal. A special full-color art page is bound
>into the front with the signatures.

Argh.  You would put this out two weeks after I go on disability.

Anyway, trying to justify buying three products I already own to my wife 
would result in temperatures similar to those found on Pluto.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 16:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 15:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEINDMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426150540.009fcec0@mindspring.com>

At 02:38 PM 4/26/02 -0400, you wrote:
>He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't even know
>it was happening. To fix the problem we are posting his ships on a web site
>and he will just post the URL. If he can get GTS and Pegasus both to
>cooperated, he may post plain text in the body of his messages. Here is the
>URL again:
>
>http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd
>
>More GT ships and a load of High Guard designs are uploading... oop, done!

Very nice!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 16:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 15:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
References: <l03010d02b8ef54d1ed86@[206.224.92.67]>
Message-ID: <3CC9DB27.6010501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Loren Wiseman wrote:

> http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/core/

Am I the only one here who went 'All RIGHT! A Core sourcebook!' only to 
be dissapointed?

(I mean the leather-bound 25th anniversary one was the first Kewl thing, 
right?)

No offense Loren, but for a moment, I thought 'The richest, most 
powerful worlds in the Imperium...it's very *heart* ... what a place!'

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 17:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 16:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426145538.009eabf0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC9DCEE.8BAC6647@mindspring.com>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 02:07 PM 4/26/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >The GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set:
> >
> >http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/anniversaryset/
> >
> >And the 25th anniversary limited edition hardback: Only one press run,
> >limited to pre-orders. The cover is black bonded leather, foil stamped with
> >the Traveller 25th-anniversary seal. A special full-color art page is bound
> >into the front with the signatures.
>
> Argh.  You would put this out two weeks after I go on disability.
>
> Anyway, trying to justify buying three products I already own to my wife
> would result in temperatures similar to those found on Pluto.
>
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Don't justify, rationalize. If that doesn't work swoon a little, then make her
go whoo-whoo. Works like a charm. ;)


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 26 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Message-ID: <16f.cbfbaed.29fb394e@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>>     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>> only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
>> goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
officer."
>
>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
TOS.

Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 18:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 26 17:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEINDMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <3CCA95A1.17493.79C160@localhost>

On 26 Apr 2002 at 14:38, Swordy wrote:

> He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't
> even know it was happening. 

Interesting. I use Pegasus and haven't had any complaints about that 
sort of thing. I found it really easy to turn off all the non 7-bit 
ASCII stuff.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 18:54:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri Apr 26 17:54:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Bruce Johnson writes:
>Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here,
>comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.
>
>You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via
>your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of
>false positives and false negatives.
>
>That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously,
>which means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched
>erroneously.

OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics, so
please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the odds
that the system will think I am? And if I am in the database, what are the
odds that the system will fail to recognize me?



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 19:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri Apr 26 18:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20020426070904.349CA27AFF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270302500.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Matthew Bond writes:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>
>>That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
>>emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.
>
>And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that IMTU
>while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
>calculable duration.

Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_ TU,
but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the OTU.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 19:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri Apr 26 18:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
References: <20020425052154.B00C227A9C@mail.travellercentral.com> <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC9FD69.B9D10187@premier.net>


David Smart wrote:
> 
> Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> very, very large capital ships?
> 
> I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
> spinal mounts.
> 
> I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
> sharing.
> 
> By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
> TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

I forwarded copies of three TL-15 battleships to David Smart. 
_Montana_, a 500,000 dton NPAW-armed ship; _Jean Bart_, a meson-armed
variant of _Montana_; and _Shiva_, a 1,000,000 dton NPAW-armed
behemoth.  All of these ships have been posted to the TML in the past.

Now, does anyone want me to repost them to the list?  Alternately, does
anyone simply want a copy sent to them?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 19:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 26 18:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020427114011.A16950@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics,
> so please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the
> odds that the system will think I am?

That depends upon the threshold they set, the lighting conditions, the
degree of similarity you have to the closest people in the database,
what you're wearing around your head and/or face, whether you've got a
cold (or whether the people in the database had one!), and many other
factors.  Then add in the probability that your image is in the
database by mistake.

You could think of 4% as being the *minimum* chance you'll be
misidentified as a miscreant.


> And if I am in the database, what are the odds that the system will
> fail to recognize me?

See all of the above, and add in whether you're actually trying to
avoid detection.  If it's raining, water on the face is probably an
excellent way to throw off feature detection; most contour-detection
systems respond *very* badly to having numerous glints in the salient
regions.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 21:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 20:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
In-Reply-To: <3CC9DCEE.8BAC6647@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426145538.009eabf0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426200839.009f7940@mindspring.com>

At 07:04 PM 4/26/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Don't justify, rationalize. If that doesn't work swoon a little, then make her
>go whoo-whoo. Works like a charm. ;)

Remember that I'm currently writing.. this means that our office is covered 
in piles of books, notes, and things labeled "Do not move this! Penalty is 
death or six hours of Dylan on the stereo! - The Genius"  The monitor has 
about three dozen cryptic Post-It notes with things like "D. Colhoun - 
stats? b-date?"  "Template for Flor." and "Rewrite K, L and M" (which is 
amusing when asked me why I was re-writing three Muni Metro lines.. )Also, 
her time on the computer is being interrupted by me racing in from  other 
rooms shouting "Start Word!  Move!  Must write sidebar!"  (Most of the time 
I get these bursts of inspiration in the shower...)

In short, her tolerance of GURPS, Traveller, and me are at low points right 
now.  :)

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                    - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 22:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr 26 21:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270302500.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <001d01c1eda0$cf53a400$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 2:11 AM
Subject: [TML] Re: Assumptions in Piracy Exercise


> Matthew Bond writes:
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> >
> >>That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
> >>emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.
> >
> >And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that
IMTU
> >while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
> >calculable duration.
>
> Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
> from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_ TU,
> but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the OTU.

Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump Duration
is unknowable until immediately prior to exit. And remember that DGP is not
Official Canon.

I can find no such reference in the books I find close to hand: Bk2, Bk5,
Gurps:Traveller... only a reference to the fact that jumps take respectively
1 week, 150-175 hours, and 168 hours +/- 0 to 10%...

And indeed, IMTU Jump duration is variable around 1 week. So show me where I
contradict canon. Just because my *interpretation* of the canon does not
coincide with yours does not necessarily mean that mine is any less valid,
even if many others share your view.

And in any case, the OTU explicitly includes piracy so surely any
interpretation of canon that aids in the existence of piracy must therefore
be welcomed with open arms under your apparent criteria for valid
discussion.

And If it transpires there is an explicit canon dictum that invalidates my
interpretation, then I offer my most profuse apologies for sullying the
value of this debate to you as a result of my asking how piracy could be
eradicated in my apparently perverse aberration of a traveller universe. I
will then henceforth only regale the list with verbatim quotation of
scripture^H^H^H^H canon no matter how internally inconsistent it may be! The
Gospel according to the Saint Marc is the very Word of God revealed to us
and I shall blaspheme no more...

Or not.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 22:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 21:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b8ee2476727f@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20426.212105.4Q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 2:35 PM -0400 4/25/02, Mark Urbin wrote:
>>Follow it with a 1% tax on art books, art supplies, and the sale of 
>>art (records, tapes, movie tickets, paintings, etc.) to fund federal 
>>art projects.
>
> I'm not sure these sort of things are such a bad idea.  It would tie 
> the projects in better with their constituencies.  For example, the 
> SF tax would give NASA funding from a source that puts a priority on 
> its activities and give those who are interested in space research 
> more results.  (And people are more tolerant of taxes that go to 
> specific things they support).

And just *how* long do you think it'd be before the money was diverted
to pet projects of influential Congress critters?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 23:01:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 22:01:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20426.212031.6T4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
>> plan
>> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
>> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
>> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
>> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
>> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
>> to "space,
>> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
>
> Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want to help make
> those dreams come true.

Then why is the money going to NASA?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 00:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 23:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <20020426080850.A14241@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20426.224425.6p0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Actually, it's the method ised by floppy *and* hard disk controllers
>> for just about everything. GCR and all the rest of that was only used
>> by Apple and Commodore.
>
> Yes, and wasn't even used in the Commodore Amiga.  It *could* read and
> write GCR, but at single density.  (The GCR encoding method looks
> better on paper, 4 bits out of 5, but is inherently lower-density for
> a given magnetic coercivity of medium.)
>
>
>> No, at the *hardware* level, it's still sectors and tracks.
>
> Not even that: at the *hardware* level, it's a sequence of magnetic
> polarity changes.  Software (or firmware) groups them into sectors and
> tracks.  The Amiga didn't have a firmware sector decoder; it read
> tracks in as '0' for no polarity change at the appropriate time, and
> '1' if there was.  The MFM decoding, sector recognition, and error
> checking was done in software -- by the CPU normally, but I wrote a
> driver that used the "Agnes" GPU instead.

Well, the FM/MFM decoding is part of the FDC *chip* ever since the WD
1771 chip in 1977.

>> *If* Commodore had used FM and MFM encoding on the disks, rather than
>> GCR (basicly a different way of modulating the signal that represents
>> the bitstream on the media), then all it'd take to read a C-64 disk on
>> a PC would be some fancy software. 
>
> As it is, most modern FDD controllers have MFM decoding and sector
> recognition in firmware or hardware, so you can't do GCR reading
> without changing chips.  However: there are software tricks by which
> you can read *most* low-density GCR in an MFM drive (as in recover 90%
> or so of the bits) so long as the drive hardware isn't too "smart" and
> refuses to read what it thinks is a damaged sector.  Lower-density GCR
> comes out with a predictable pattern of bits after MFM 'decoding'.
> The only problem is loss of synchronization in low-quality drives.

Well, as I noted, I have an old CopyIIPC option board. It goes between
the drive and the FDC board.

> I believe the Mac uses variable-speed drive hardware as well as GCR,
> so this trick won't work with Mac disks.  (At least, they did 10 years
> ago when I last played around with these things!)

Well, as I recall, the CopyIIPC board can read Macs somehow.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 03:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Apr 27 02:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk> <20020427114011.A16950@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <003601c1edd1$23d16dc0$3d9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


>
> See all of the above, and add in whether you're actually trying to
> avoid detection.  If it's raining, water on the face is probably an
> excellent way to throw off feature detection; most contour-detection
> systems respond *very* badly to having numerous glints in the salient
> regions.
>

The way a person moves is as distinctive as a fingerprint. Visual systems
exist that can identify a person by their biomechanics, with about the same
failure rate.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 04:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr 27 03:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <003601c1edd1$23d16dc0$3d9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk> <20020427114011.A16950@freeman.little-possums.net> <003601c1edd1$23d16dc0$3d9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020427203514.D17780@freeman.little-possums.net>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> The way a person moves is as distinctive as a fingerprint. Visual
> systems exist that can identify a person by their biomechanics, with
> about the same failure rate.

It seems much progress has been made in the last year or so, then.
The most recent time I looked at them, they required sensors or
reflectors to be attached at defined positions on the body for any
reasonable rate of success at all.  Has that requirement been
eliminated?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 05:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 04:12:02 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
Message-ID: <d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163@aol.com>

--part1_d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 4/26/02 11:16:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gridlore@mindspring.com writes:


> At 10:49 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry 
> > (copyright 1968)
> >
> >     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
> > only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
> > goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
> > Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
> officer."
> 
> An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
> TOS.
> 
> Of course, it goes along nicely with ST's socialist view.. in the Soviet 
> military all the technical jobs were held by officers.
> 
> 

I disagree that the use of the titles "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS implies 
that there were enlisted personnel on the Constitution class starships of 
that era. Roddenberry said in the book cited earlier that there were no 
enlisted onboard the ENTERPRISE. The references to "yeoman" and "chief" 
probably meant the jobs they held aboard the ENTERPRISE rather than their 
actual rank. 

Let us not forget that in the context of TOS we are talking about 
approximately I believe 12 to 13 ships with crews between 200 to 430 
personnel, upward to 5,000 + personnel out of an organization that was 
staffing assumedly a fleet of support ships and a dozen or more full service 
bases, and according to one TOS episode up to 1,000 outposts and/or space 
stations. As pointed out earlier, the ENTERPRISE and her sister ships were 
supposed to be the elite of the elite. I do not find it unbelievable that we 
would have strictly "commissioned officers" staff such vessels under those 
conditions. Lets look at Chief O'Brien too, he did not become and official 
enlisted man until he stepped down from his vaulted position on the 
ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on Deep Space Nine. Now admittedly there is 
nothing canon saying that a person can move between so-called enlisted 
positions and commissioned officers positions during their career (although 
it even happens in real life - I new a guy in Korea that was a captain in the 
army reserve, went active as noncommissioned officer) but if only the best 
are crewing the starships, then maybe a person in the enlighted 24th century 
Starfleet could have the extra prestige of being "commissioned" when in space 
but "enlisted" when assigned to mundane duties station or planet side. 

Who knows? I certainly do not, but I resist the natural tendency to 
automatically assume that Starfleet is a 19th/20th century military 
bureaucracy and not a fluid, enlightened civil service organization that 
celebrates diversity and individual accomplishment. 


Bob Range
"The Human Adventure is just beginning." Gene Roddenberry, 1979

--part1_d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 4/26/02 11:16:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gridlore@mindspring.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">At 10:49 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
<BR>&gt; From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield &amp; Gene Roddenberry 
<BR>&gt; (copyright 1968)
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
<BR>&gt; only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
<BR>&gt; goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
<BR>&gt; Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer."
<BR>
<BR>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS.
<BR>
<BR>Of course, it goes along nicely with ST's socialist view.. in the Soviet 
<BR>military all the technical jobs were held by officers.
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>I disagree that the use of the titles "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS implies that there were enlisted personnel on the Constitution class starships of that era. Roddenberry said in the book cited earlier that there were no enlisted onboard the ENTERPRISE. The references to "yeoman" and "chief" probably meant the jobs they held aboard the ENTERPRISE rather than their actual rank. 
<BR>
<BR>Let us not forget that in the context of TOS we are talking about approximately I believe 12 to 13 ships with crews between 200 to 430 personnel, upward to 5,000 + personnel out of an organization that was staffing assumedly a fleet of support ships and a dozen or more full service bases, and according to one TOS episode up to 1,000 outposts and/or space stations. As pointed out earlier, the ENTERPRISE and her sister ships were supposed to be the elite of the elite. I do not find it unbelievable that we would have strictly "commissioned officers" staff such vessels under those conditions. Lets look at Chief O'Brien too, he did not become and official enlisted man until he stepped down from his vaulted position on the ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on Deep Space Nine. Now admittedly there is nothing canon saying that a person can move between so-called enlisted positions and commissioned officers positions during their career (although it even happens in real life - I new a guy in Korea that was a captain in the army reserve, went active as noncommissioned officer) but if only the best are crewing the starships, then maybe a person in the enlighted 24th century Starfleet could have the extra prestige of being "commissioned" when in space but "enlisted" when assigned to mundane duties station or planet side. 
<BR>
<BR>Who knows? I certainly do not, but I resist the natural tendency to automatically assume that Starfleet is a 19th/20th century military bureaucracy and not a fluid, enlightened civil service organization that celebrates diversity and individual accomplishment. 
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Brush Script" LANG="0"><I>Bob Range</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="BernhardFashion BT" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Brush Script" LANG="0">"The Human Adventure is just beginning." Gene Roddenberry, 1979</I></FONT></HTML>

--part1_d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 05:15:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat Apr 27 04:15:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest (yes, just the digest!)
In-Reply-To: <20020425183523.109AF27990@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c1eddc$a474f180$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

The digest is back to not doing anything to MIME'd messages. I've noticed a
few coming through with all the HTML in it, but recently a couple of
messages have come through with attachments encoded so comprehensively that
the message is incomprehensible.

As an example, here's a message from Shadowcat that I've just come across
from in the digest...

> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #443 - 23 msgs
<Snip>
> Message: 18
> From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:12:24 -0500
> Subject: [TML] whoops, heres the ship
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> Content-description: Mail message body
>
>
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-disposition: inline
> Content-description: Attachment information.
>
> The following section of this message contains a file attachment
> prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
> If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system,
> you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
>
>    ---- File information -----------
>      File:  TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class Commerce Raider.htm
>      Date:  20 Mar 2001, 21:38
>      Size:  4748 bytes.
>      Type:  HTML-text
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736
> Content-type: Text/HTML; name="TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class
> Commerce Raider.htm"
> Content-disposition: attachment; filename="TL12 800-ton
> Chameleon-class Commerce Raider.htm"
> Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64
>
> PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcm
> Fuc2l0aW9u

<Snipped lots of BASE64 encoded stuff>

> eXJpZ2h0IKkgMjAwMCBieSBDVCBDb252ZXJzaW9uDQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo=
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736--
>

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi                      AndyLong@BigPond.com
 United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
                                +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 05:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat Apr 27 04:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Missed digest No. 438
Message-ID: <000701c1eddf$23468a80$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

Could some friendly soul please send me a copy of digest number 438?

Thanks in advance, Andy

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi                      AndyLong@BigPond.com	   	
 United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
                                +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260858570.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <3CCA8AF0.23335.3C507B0@localhost>

<snip>
>  Policing the area is a problem for cig smokers. The cigar smokers I knew
> would save the stub. Don'T remember the correct word. I smoked a pipe and
> all I needed to do was spead and cover the ash.

The word for the remains at the bottom of the pipe is "dottle".

Sinbad Sam
Former Pipe Smoker

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 10:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <b9.1fb0d3cc.29fc3384@aol.com>

John Groth writes:

>I forwarded copies of three TL-15 battleships to David Smart. 
>_Montana_, a 500,000 dton NPAW-armed ship; _Jean Bart_, a meson-armed
>variant of _Montana_; and _Shiva_, a 1,000,000 dton NPAW-armed
>behemoth.  All of these ships have been posted to the TML in the past.
>
>Now, does anyone want me to repost them to the list?  Alternately, does
>anyone simply want a copy sent to them?

And disrupt the TML's carefully smothered signal-to-noise ratio? Are you Mad?

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 14:24:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 27 13:24:06 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/27/02 4:11 AM, Olegamer@aol.com at Olegamer@aol.com wrote:
(Note:  I had to de-style this text, so quoting is ugly.  Please use plain
text on this list)


<quote>
I disagree that the use of the titles "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS implies
that there were enlisted personnel on the Constitution class starships of
that era. Roddenberry said in the book cited earlier that there were no
enlisted onboard the ENTERPRISE. The references to "yeoman" and "chief"
probably meant the jobs they held aboard the ENTERPRISE rather than their
actual rank. 
</quote>

I think that is should be remembered that Roddenberry came out of
commercial aviation IIRC.  An airliner, or a modern spacecraft is a very
different beast than a long duration exploration and paramilitary craft.
The 'enlisted' part of the crews in each essentially stay on the ground
while the officer pilots operate the vessel on short term flights.

I think RAH got it right when he used his own naval background is laying out
the crew structure of a star ship.  It more correctly reflects the type of
personnel and their duties aboard ship.

One also has to consider that Hollywood is a very different place.  Their
understanding of 'rank' is pretty detached from the real world.  After all,
while a directory may 'command' a TV program or movie, a 'star' can derail
to whole process if he or she doesn't get what they want.  So there's a
built in fiction that everybody is equally important and necessary, and that
no one is really above someone else (excluding extras, of course, who aren't
really people anyway)

<quote>
Let us not forget that in the context of TOS we are talking about
approximately I believe 12 to 13 ships with crews between 200 to 430
personnel, upward to 5,000 + personnel out of an organization that was
staffing assumedly a fleet of support ships and a dozen or more full service
bases, and according to one TOS episode up to 1,000 outposts and/or space
stations. As pointed out earlier, the ENTERPRISE and her sister ships were
supposed to be the elite of the elite.
</quote>

Why is this germane?  The SAS, Delta Force and other military elite units
are the creme de la creme of their respective armies.  They still reflect
the same rank structure as the military at large.  True, there are no
privates, but the enlisted still make up the majority of these units and do
the actual real work.

I think that al lot of this confusions is caused by most civilians view NCOs
and enlisted as 'not as good as' officers.  They don't understand the
difference between the two and their roles. Civilians, when they picture
themselves in uniform, almost invariably see themselves as officers.  The
truth is that many wouldn't like it.  My own experience is that as an
officer, you miss out on a lot of the 'fun'.  You are now an planner,
administrator and manager once you get past the lowest ranks.  The Buck
sergeants, corporals and specialists get to do all the fun stuff like shoot
the machine guns, pull the cannon lanyards and such  You never see Rambo or
those other elite commando types doing paperwork, writing evaluations and
all that crap.  Stuff I spent a lot of time doing after I was comissioned.

<quote>
I do not find it unbelievable that we would have strictly "commissioned
officers" staff such vessels under those conditions. Lets look at Chief
O'Brien too, he did not become and official enlisted man until he stepped
down from his vaulted position on the ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on
Deep Space Nine. 
</quote>

Again, I think this show a misunderstanding of what officers actually do in
the service (The exception being pilots, although the Army has Warrant
Officers for that.)  And I recall at least on episode of TNG, "Drumhead"
that involved the court martial of an enlisted crewman of the Enterprise, so
there must be some enlisted.

<quote>
Now admittedly there is nothing canon saying that a person can move between
so-called enlisted positions and commissioned officers positions during
their career (although it even happens in real life - I new a guy in Korea
that was a captain in the army reserve, went active as noncommissioned
officer) 
</quote>

This has to do with how long the person had been inactive.  When I was in
the 104th TNG, we has a lot of Drill Sergeants who were former officers
during Vietnam who got back into the reserves to earn those pensions.

<quote>
but if only the best are crewing the starships, then maybe a person in the
enlighted 24th century Starfleet could have the extra prestige of being
"commissioned" when in space but "enlisted" when assigned to mundane duties
station or planet side.
</quote>

See my comments about elite above.  Why do civilians view officers as being
'better' than enlisted.  They're not.  They just are different.  Someone has
to do the planning, paperwork and administration.  Somebody also has to do
the actual work.  

<quote>
Who knows? I certainly do not, but I resist the natural tendency to
automatically assume that Starfleet is a 19th/20th century military
bureaucracy and not a fluid, enlightened civil service organization that
celebrates diversity and individual accomplishment.
</quote>

I attempt not to gag.  Show me one single large organization that does not
have a rigidly defined hierarchy and still gets anything done.  Particularly
one that operates for long periods of time without interaction with society
at large.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 14:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Apr 27 13:49:02 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3r8l0j2cy.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
> And I recall at least on episode of TNG, "Drumhead" that involved
> the court martial of an enlisted crewman of the Enterprise, so there
> must be some enlisted.

Like so much else in ST, the existence of something as a plot device
in one episode does not mean that in exists at all in any other.  I
believe that the writers took Emerson's dictum a bit too seriously...

-- 
<+> Veni, vidi, vici
    Whinny, weedy, weaky
    Which sounds better?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 15:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Apr 27 14:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <b9.1fb0d3cc.29fc3384@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCENNGNAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Don't you mean noise to signal ration????


jml

And disrupt the TML's carefully smothered signal-to-noise ratio? Are you
Mad?

GC
_______________________________________________
T


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 15:45:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat Apr 27 14:45:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3CCB1CC6.60408@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
>>Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here,
>>comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.
>>
>>You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via
>>your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of
>>false positives and false negatives.
>>
>>That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously,
>>which means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched
>>erroneously.
> 
> 
> OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics, so
> please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the odds
> that the system will think I am? And if I am in the database, what are the
> odds that the system will fail to recognize me?

Same odds, no matter what: 1 in 25.

Leonard posted these numbers earlier, but here goes.

Assumption: you have a population of 10000 people, who may or may not be 
part of a database of 50 bad guys. (0.5% of the population)

4% failure rate means that in 4% of the cases, software fails to 
discriminate properly. (they did not give separate false positive and 
false egative error rates)

If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
member.

10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
correctly ID'ed.

50 bad guys * 0.04 = 2 false negatives in 10,000 examinations. 48 
correctly ID'ed

The only way to decrease the number of innocent people accused is either 
to increase the accuracy or increase the criminal population :-/

Notice, this analysis cannot really show how many criminals you will 
catch, becasue we don't know the distribution of criminals in the 
scanned population.

The above analysis actually assumes that ALL of the criminals in the DB 
are present in the scanned population. You are still id'in nearly one 
innocent person for every criminal caught. 40 vs 48, and 2 got away!

If, as appears to be the case, criminals avoid areas where such 
surveillance occurs, then the ratio of innocent vs criminal ID's goes up.

This system goes into effect...the criminals learn quickly. Say 80% 
start avoiding this area.

That means you're down to 10 crooks in the population. Of these 0.2 will 
get through...it's hard to say, most of the time you'll catch 'em all.

Now you have a ratio of 40 innocents to 10 crooks, you're dealing with 4 
times the innocent population caught in your dragnet.

As you increase the surveillance population, *unless* you increase your 
database correspondingly, you will get fewer and fewer returns for your 
efforts.

If *everyone* is in the database, then you will reduce that ratio 
Innocent:Crook to the error rate of your system.

Alas, increasing that database is far too easy these days...many states 
are using digitized photgraphs on their drivers licenses. In the test 
case in Flroda, when they scanned everyone coming in to Tampa Stadium 
(for the superboowl? The Orange Bowl...some bowl game) they used, as 
their Database, the entire florida drivers license DB.

Instant Police State. Just add technology.

Bruce




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 17:24:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 16:24:10 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
Message-ID: <bc.25ad7503.29fc8cd1@aol.com>

In a message dated 27/04/02 21:28:01 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


Again, I think this show a misunderstanding of what officers actually do in
the service (The exception being pilots, although the Army has Warrant
Officers for that.)  And I recall at least on episode of TNG, "Drumhead"
that involved the court martial of an enlisted crewman of the Enterprise, so
there must be some enlisted.


A medical technician. Although this implies an enlisted man it is conceivable 
that medical technicians are officers in the ST universe.

Of course this doesn't mean that the whole ST approach to rank isn't a load 
of old dingoes kidneys.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 18:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 27 17:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3CCB1CC6.60408@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>> Bruce Johnson writes:
>> 
>>>Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here,
>>>comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.
>>>
>>>You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via
>>>your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of
>>>false positives and false negatives.
>>>
>>>That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously,
>>>which means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched
>>>erroneously.
>> 
>> 
>> OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics, so
>> please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the odds
>> that the system will think I am? And if I am in the database, what are the
>> odds that the system will fail to recognize me?
>
> Same odds, no matter what: 1 in 25.
>
> Leonard posted these numbers earlier, but here goes.
>
> Assumption: you have a population of 10000 people, who may or may not be 
> part of a database of 50 bad guys. (0.5% of the population)
>
> 4% failure rate means that in 4% of the cases, software fails to 
> discriminate properly. (they did not give separate false positive and 
> false egative error rates)
>
> If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
> are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
> member.
>
> 10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
> correctly ID'ed.

Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives. 

> 50 bad guys * 0.04 = 2 false negatives in 10,000 examinations. 48 
> correctly ID'ed

> The above analysis actually assumes that ALL of the criminals in the DB 
> are present in the scanned population. You are still id'in nearly one 
> innocent person for every criminal caught. 40 vs 48, and 2 got away!

No, you've IDed 8 1/3 innocent people for each criminal caught. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 18:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 17:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <20020427.170606.-112869.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

on 4/27/02 4:11 AM, Olegamer@aol.com at Olegamer@aol.com wrote:
<quote>
I do not find it unbelievable that we would have strictly "commissioned
officers" staff such vessels under those conditions. Lets look at Chief
O'Brien too, he did not become and official enlisted man until he stepped
down from his vaulted position on the ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on
Deep Space Nine. 
</quote>

Well, after a simple web search for startrek enterprise, then a scroll
down to O'Brien, I came up with his stats. It doesn't matter what Gene R.
intended, there were enlisted personnel onboard. See below.

   Miles O`Brien
Chief of Operations  

PERSONNEL FILE: O'Brien, Miles Edward
**Includes summary updates, addenda through SD 52999 (2375) 
Played By: Colm Meany
Rank: Chief petty officer, senior chief specialist
Current assignment: Professor of Engineering, Starfleet Academy;
previously, Chief of Operations, Deep Space Nine
Full Name: Miles Edward O'Brien
Year of birth: September, 2328
Place of birth: Killarney, Ireland, Earth
Parents: Mr. and Mrs. Michael O'Brien (mother died 2368; father remarried
2369)
Marital status: Married Keiko Ishikawa in 2367 in Ten-Forward, U.S.S.
Enterprise
Children: One daughter, Molly, born 2368; a son, Kirayoshi, born 2373
Quarters: Currently relocating to Earth from residence at Deep Space Nine
(several cities under consideration)
Security clearance: Level 1


Starfleet Career Summary 

2345 -- Enrolled in Starfleet Academy.

2346 -- Enlisted as a non-commissioned officer in Starfleet.

2347 -- As young crewman posted to NCC-57295 U.S.S. Rutledge under Capt.
Ben Maxwell, was decorated after clash with Cardassians on Setlik III and
re-assigned by Maxwell as a bridge tactical officer.

2364 -- After serving on two more ships in the last two years,
transferred to new U.S.S. Enterprise under Captain Jean-Luc Picard as
relief flight control officer in command duty division and later as
security in operations division.

2365 -- Re-assigned at chief petty officer rank to Enterprise transporter
chief, usually posted in Transporter Room 3.

2369 -- Accepted offer as chief of operations at Deep Space Nine, onetime
Cardassian mining station, under Cmdr. Ben Sisko.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 20:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Apr 27 19:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
Message-ID: <3CCB57F5.D59D4658@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>
>http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd
>
>>More GT ships and a load of High Guard designs are uploading... oop, >>done!

>Very nice!

Very nice indeed! And a GT version of my Zhilqatij class Strike Cruiser!
Now I feel honored...

"I would like to thank the members of the Academy..."

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: didn't get Digest No 438
Message-ID: <000b01c1ee60$b56ee7a0$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

I have now received copies of this digest. Thank you to all who sent them

Andy

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi                      AndyLong@BigPond.com	  	
 United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
                                +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
In-Reply-To: <20020427.170606.-112869.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c1ee61$8a7d2420$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Well, after a simple web search for startrek enterprise, then a scroll
> down to O'Brien, I came up with his stats. It doesn't matter what Gene R.
> intended, there were enlisted personnel onboard.  ...

And here I thought this was all common knowledge.

Roddenberry intended that all starfleet personel on the Enterprise were
"officers".  While this made no sense at all, this was the stated intention.
This applied through all of TOS and into TNG.

The best example of this was (appropriately enough), Miles O'Brien.

When Colm Meany's character was first introduced in TNG he was an officer
and wore the pips of a Lt on his collar.  This was consistent through the
first 2-3 seasons.

Later, when the post-Roddenberry powers decided to start fleshing out
the character, he was officially named and made enlisted.  (In one
particular episode, the one with Worf's human parents, he is specifically
identified as such.)  O'Brien was enlisted long before he ever transfered
to DS9.  Note that the character was never demoted in a story or
anything, the O'Brien's character was just retroactively "changed" to
have always been enlisted.

So, we are left with the situation that while Roddenberry intended for
only officers to serve aboard the Enterprise, the later powers (Berman?)
decided that the Enterprise should have enlisted personel after all, and
the change was made.

What this all has to do with Traveller, I dunno.  Sorry for wasting
everyone's time, and I am embarrassed to admit this much knowledge of
Star Trek, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:10:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:10:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020427111811.41F13279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Matthew Bond writes:
>From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>>Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
>>from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_ TU,
>>but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the OTU.
>
>Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump Duration
>is unknowable until immediately prior to exit.

It may or may not be known from the moment you enter jump, but it is
implicit in the game mechanic that fixes the jump duration by a single
random die roll that you can't figure it out until it is to late to abort
the jump. Otherwise ships would keep making the calculations (at 20
minutes a pop) until they found a solution that would take them to their
destination in less than the (so-called) average time of 7 days.

>I can find no such reference in the books I find close to hand: Bk2, Bk5,
>Gurps:Traveller... only a reference to the fact that jumps take respectively
>1 week, 150-175 hours, and 168 hours +/- 0 to 10%...

>And in any case, the OTU explicitly includes piracy so surely any
>interpretation of canon that aids in the existence of piracy must therefore
>be welcomed with open arms under your apparent criteria for valid
>discussion.

Of all the pirates that I can recall that the OTU explicitly includes,
none of them make a living preying on interplanetary craft[*]. Even if
your scheme turned out to be workable, it still wouldn't explain the
pirates that (according to the ship encounter tables and various
adventures) lie in wait for PCs when they jump into a system as close to
the mainworld as they can possibly get.

[*] Though I suppose the ones in the character generation tables may.


Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:47:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:47:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
In-Reply-To: <000a01c1ee61$8a7d2420$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEJLDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Then the whole thing with the yeoman and the captain had nothing to do with
officer/enlisted fraternization? Blows _my_ mind.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mike West
>
> And here I thought this was all common knowledge.
>
> Roddenberry intended that all starfleet personel on the Enterprise were
> "officers".  While this made no sense at all, this was the stated
> intention.
> This applied through all of TOS and into TNG.
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 22:08:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr 27 21:08:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Canon and Jump Duration (was Re: Piracy assumptions)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <000e01c1ee6a$4f48ce00$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 4:09 AM
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions


> Matthew Bond writes:
> >From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
> >
> >>Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
> >>from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_
TU,
> >>but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the
OTU.
> >
> >Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump
Duration
> >is unknowable until immediately prior to exit.
>
> It may or may not be known from the moment you enter jump, but it is
> implicit in the game mechanic that fixes the jump duration by a single
> random die roll that you can't figure it out until it is to late to abort
> the jump. Otherwise ships would keep making the calculations (at 20
> minutes a pop) until they found a solution that would take them to their
> destination in less than the (so-called) average time of 7 days.

Hence my stating that the roll applies to any jump from point A to Point B
within the next few hours. Astrogation-0 IMTU gives exactly the same result
(Jump Duration unknown until committed to Jump). Astrogation-1 lets the
astrogator see the resulting duration prior to final commitment to jump.
Astrogation 2+ allows the astrogator to calculate jump duration for jumps in
the subsequent (Astrogation Skill)-1 Jump 'windows', where each window
encompasses a few hours.

How about you removing your CanonVision(TM) Blinkers and considering this
variation on Jump Duration and Astrogation on its own merits. Does it
'break' canon? Not particularly IMHO. Does it enhance canon? Well, it
certainly allows Fleets to arrive together... and makes Skilled Astrogators
worth having... both of which I feel are useful.

You seem to feel that being able to calculate a jump duration is
'uncanonical', where all that I can find in canon is that the duration
varies at approximately a week +- 10% or so. Canon doesn't (in the reference
I have to hand anyway) make any comment other than this. It doesn't
explicitly say that two ships jumping from point A to Point B at the same
time make different rolls. Most people seem to assume that this is implied,
but I would simply say that the rules are assuming the players are on a
single ship and are only concerned with their own particular Jump Duration.

If I as GM choose to apply this same time to all ships jumping between the
same two points within a similar timeframe, I am free to do so. I could even
state that a jump between two given systems ALWAYS takes the same time, and
the roll is just to determine this time the first time the players jump
between those two systems. Or I could say that all jumps have random
durations all the time (as you and many others feel is the case). All three
of these options is just as valid in canon, as all canon states is that not
all Jumps take the same time, and that the variation is within set limits
around one week.

Now if you want to persist in deriding me for being 'uncanonical' please
direct me to a valid reference that invalidates my assumptions. It may be
that it is in some supplement or magazine article I do not possess. But just
because it is different to the way you have always done things doesn't
necessarily make it uncanonical, if it covers an aspect of Traveller that is
not explicitly covered by canon.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 22:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Kim)
Date: Sat Apr 27 21:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>
References: <20020424063707.194DD27A34@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <p0510150db8f1258b9cb4@[10.0.1.10]>

At 6:54 AM -0500 4/24/02, David Smart wrote:

>An interesting sidenote for Traveller is the experience on one of the
>many
>Apollo flights. Apollo 8, I think. 'Twould seem one of the astronauts
>had
>a bout with some food that didn't agree with him. It hit when they had
>been
>in orbit preparatory to leaving for the moon. No one informed Mission
>Control and they were told to proceed (lose out on going to the moon
>'cause
>of the trots? As if!).

	Frank Borman, the commander of Apollo 8 was violently sick 
early in the mission.  Started throwing up and in the midst of 
retching had massive diarrhea.  Apparently, the cleanup was rather 
unpleasant :).  A big blob of vomit hit Jim Lovell in the chest.

	Borman didn't want to announce to the world over the open 
loop that he had been ill, so they recorded a message on tape that 
got dumped with the spacecraft telemetry.  After the tape had been 
listened to, there was serious discussion of canceling the mission. 
The surgeons were worried that whatever Borman had might be passed to 
the rest of the crew.

	In the end, it was decided to let the mission go through. 
Borman was feeling much better and it was too late to use the Service 
Module's engine to do a direct abort.  No matter what, Apollo 8 was 
going to go around the moon anyway so they might as well wait see how 
everyone was feeling when they went into orbit

	There's a good telling of this event in Chaikin's _A_Man_On_the_Moon_.

Space Nut Justin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 03:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeffrey Malone)
Date: Sun Apr 28 02:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Sickness and the Political Control of Information
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk> <000e01c1ee6a$4f48ce00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <001301c1ee93$5bbcfd40$4e7354d2@1338700057>

Followers of the TNS may have noted that the story of Jeffrey Long, ace
reporter revealing the truth (?) of Jump Sickness, has appeared in the G:T
timeline.  I have always been of the view that Jump Sickness is probably
more political than physiological in origin.  The reason?  The time edge
that control of a J-6 information network (versus a J-4 or less general
information network for Joe Public) gives any large interstellar state.
Noting that mis-jump may cause an effective jump well beyond J-6 (up to J-30
or J-36, IIRC, depending on rule set), I would wonder whether the average
duration of Jump Sickness is up to the 36 week timeframe.  Requiring the
absolute quarantine of the poor vicitms, I suspect.

The bottom line:  Jump Sickness has more to do with protecting the Imperial
body politic from destabilising uncontrolled information flows, than its
alleged victims.

Comments?

J.M. Malone


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 05:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 28 04:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <146.da76e8b.29fd3d17@aol.com>

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In a message dated 4/27/02 11:10:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mjwest@caddocourt.com writes:


> What this all has to do with Traveller, I dunno.  Sorry for wasting
> everyone's time, and I am embarrassed to admit this much knowledge of
> Star Trek, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.
> 
> Mike West
> 
> 

Thank you Mr. West for imputting your 2 credits, I for one enjoyed the 
clarification. 

Bob Range
aka Olegamer

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/27/02 11:10:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mjwest@caddocourt.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">What this all has to do with Traveller, I dunno. &nbsp;Sorry for wasting
<BR>everyone's time, and I am embarrassed to admit this much knowledge of
<BR>Star Trek, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.
<BR>
<BR>Mike West
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Thank you Mr. West for imputting your 2 credits, I for one enjoyed the clarification. 
<BR>
<BR>Bob Range
<BR>aka Olegamer</FONT></HTML>

--part1_146.da76e8b.29fd3d17_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 09:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 28 08:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
Message-ID: <200204281505.FEN01862@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Justin Kim <jlkim@mail.com>  
>After the tape had been listened to, there was serious 
>discussion of canceling the mission. 
>The surgeons were worried that whatever Borman had might be 
>passed to the rest of the crew.
>

The Intergalactic Laxative will get you from here to Mars....
________________
NO! Sentence first, verdict after!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 09:18:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Apr 28 08:18:12 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020428151458.60631.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

I think that al lot of this confusions is caused by
> most civilians view NCOs
> and enlisted as 'not as good as' officers.  They
> don't understand the
> difference between the two and their roles.
> Civilians, when they picture
> themselves in uniform, almost invariably see
> themselves as officers.
Well, this is just my two cents. Officers enjoy more
luxuries than enlisted men and are seen as less
expendable. C'mon , they get paid better get better
jobs and benefits,just better every thing from
uniforms to housing. The requirements are harder too. 
It's no wonder people think this.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 09:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 28 08:42:02 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <20020428151458.60631.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8F16629.58CB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/28/02 8:14 AM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> Well, this is just my two cents. Officers enjoy more
> luxuries than enlisted men and are seen as less
> expendable. C'mon , they get paid better get better
> jobs and benefits,just better every thing from
> uniforms to housing. The requirements are harder too.
> It's no wonder people think this.

I suppose so.  Just for the record, officers pay for their own uniforms and
meals. 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 11:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 10:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
>>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
>>member.
>>
>>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
>>correctly ID'ed.
> 
> 
> Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives. 

Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...

IAC, this only makes my later analysis much worse.

("Oh, waiter! We asked for an order of magnitude here!")

Bruce



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 11:53:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Apr 28 10:53:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Big Brother


> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> >>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you
> >>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a
> >>member.
> >>
> >>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960
> >>correctly ID'ed.
> >
> >
> > Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives.
>
> Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...
>
> IAC, this only makes my later analysis much worse.

Ok, this takes into account any given analysis... so what happens when the
system analyses several frames of the CCTV footage... The chances of the
same Innocent person being repeatedly misidentified as being in the database
surely falls, and similarly the chance of correctly identifying a criminal
as being in the database rises.

If the threshold for flagging a particular person as being worth further
investigation (and I would expect that the first level of investigation is
simply to get a human operator to look at the screen and compare the image
with that in the database...) is set to be say 7+ positives out of 10 frames
analysed, then the system can filter out many of the false positives and
false negatives before raising it to a higher level of investigation.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 12:01:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Sun Apr 28 11:01:08 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <200204281505.FEN01862@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204281059510.9237-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Justin Kim <jlkim@mail.com>  
> >After the tape had been listened to, there was serious 
> >discussion of canceling the mission. 
> >The surgeons were worried that whatever Borman had might be 
> >passed to the rest of the crew.
> >
> 
> The Intergalactic Laxative will get you from here to Mars....

OMG!!!  I know that song!!!

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 12:13:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 11:13:57 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204281059510.9237-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3CCC3B8E.503094B7@premier.net>


Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
<<snip>>

> > The Intergalactic Laxative will get you from here to Mars....
> 
> OMG!!!  I know that song!!!

Ah, so we have at least _two_ Donovan fans on the list....

I saw him live at a bar in Monterey, CA in 1985.  My roommate had a
Donovan concert poster from circa 1967 (IIRC, it was for a Donovan/H.P.
Lovecraft double-bill at the Fillmore West), so I brought it with me (my
roommate being under 21) and got it autographed.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 13:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Apr 28 12:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020428173927.27A3A27990@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Matthew Bond writes:
>From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>>Matthew Bond writes:
>>>Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump
>>Duration is unknowable until immediately prior to exit.
>>
>>It may or may not be known from the moment you enter jump, but it is
>>implicit in the game mechanic that fixes the jump duration by a single
>>random die roll that you can't figure it out until it is to late to abort
>>the jump. Otherwise ships would keep making the calculations (at 20
>>minutes a pop) until they found a solution that would take them to their
>>destination in less than the (so-called) average time of 7 days.
>
>Hence my stating that the roll applies to any jump from point A to Point B
>within the next few hours.

Ships getting long jump durations would still have the option of waiting
for the next jump 'window' and try again. This IS an addition to the
canonical jump mechanics. Not to mention that it won't actually help your
pirates much. They'll still have to find a jump window that just happens
to put them in the right spot at the right time. Say the first window
would put them at the intercept spot four hours too late and they
calculate that. So they wait for the next jump window and finds that now
they'll arrive six hours too early. So instead of one chance at really
lousy odds they get six or eight changes at really lousy odds. It's a
gain, but is it enough of a gain?

>Astrogation-0 IMTU gives exactly the same result (Jump Duration unknown
>until committed to Jump). Astrogation-1 lets the astrogator see the
>resulting duration prior to final commitment to jump. Astrogation 2+
>allows the astrogator to calculate jump duration for jumps in the
>subsequent (Astrogation Skill)-1 Jump 'windows', where each window
>encompasses a few hours.

The old 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absense' saw applies to
things that have not been dealt with at length in rules and adventures.
Something like what you can and cannot do with Astrogation skill has been
dealt with in detail and the absence of any mention of such abilities IS
evidence that it doesn't exist. In canon, that is.

>How about you removing your CanonVision(TM) Blinkers and considering this
>variation on Jump Duration and Astrogation on its own merits. Does it
>'break' canon? Not particularly IMHO. Does it enhance canon? Well, it
>certainly allows Fleets to arrive together... and makes Skilled Astrogators
>worth having... both of which I feel are useful.

I presume that you mean that it enhances the roleplaying potential of the
setting, not the canon. Without getting sidetracked into discussing just
how brilliant the idea is, let me say that IMO the prime function of
having a 'continuity bible' for a shared universe is to prevent authors
from messing up the setting by introducing pet ideas that may be perfectly
good ideas in their own right but would contradict previously published
information.

I'm not a fanatic about canon. If Marc came up with an absolutely amazingly
good idea for the Traveller setting that unfortunately required that he edit
out the Ancients retroactively, then I might accept that... if the idea was
truly amazing. But I think the bar is a lot higher when it comes to
contraditing the existing background than when it comes to introducing ideas
about previously untouched territory.

>You seem to feel that being able to calculate a jump duration is
>'uncanonical', where all that I can find in canon is that the duration
>varies at approximately a week +- 10% or so. Canon doesn't (in the reference
>I have to hand anyway) make any comment other than this.

I found a couple last night. On p. 92-93 of _MT:Imperial Encyclopedia_
there is a descrition/Referee's checklist of how to conduct a jump. Step 8
is to engage the jump drive. Step 9 has the ship entering jumpspace
whereupon the referee determines the jump duration. The text does not
indicate whether he informs the players about the duration immediately or
not. However, on p. 66 of _GT:Far Trader_ is an illustration of a crew
lounge during a jump. On the wall is a prominently displayed 'Elapsed jump
time' clock. I think that if the crew knew of the exact time of breakout,
that clock would display 'Time to breakout' instead. (And yes, I know that
illustrations have a lower evidence value than text, but if an
illustration doesn't contradict any text, I consider it valid).

On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of misjump
that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've misjumped as
the time stretches out past the estimated breakout time. If they knew
exactly when they were supposed to emerge, they'd know something was wrong
within a few minutes of passing that time. I _think_ is was somewhere in a
CT book, but I can't recall if it was rules or and adventure. I'll see if
I can dig it up. (If anyone else can provide a reference, please do so).

>If I as GM choose to apply this same time to all ships jumping between the
>same two points within a similar timeframe, I am free to do so. I could even
>state that a jump between two given systems ALWAYS takes the same time, and
>the roll is just to determine this time the first time the players jump
>between those two systems.

Of course you can. It's your universe. But would you be able to do so if
you were writing a Traveller adventure for official publication? I believe
not. (Not that it is my call to make, of course).

>...Or I could say that all jumps have random durations all the time (as
>you and many others feel is the case). All three of these options is just
>as valid in canon, as all canon states is that not all Jumps take the
>same time, and that the variation is within set limits around one week.

Even if that was true (which I don't agree with), only one of those three
options could be true for any particular universe. The moment someone uses
one of the options in an official adventure, BANG!, it's the way things
are, always have been, ad always will be in the OTU.

>Now if you want to persist in deriding me for being 'uncanonical' please
>direct me to a valid reference that invalidates my assumptions.

Well, I don't think I've derided you yet, so I can't persist. But take the
above two references as a start (of references, not of deriding). I'll see
if I can dig up more.

>But just because it is different to the way you have always done things
>doesn't necessarily make it uncanonical,

I agree. I've made mistakes before. I don't think I'm doing it now,
though.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 15:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 28 14:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>
References: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020429074417.A25504@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Ok, this takes into account any given analysis... so what happens when the
> system analyses several frames of the CCTV footage... The chances of the
> same Innocent person being repeatedly misidentified as being in the database
> surely falls, and similarly the chance of correctly identifying a criminal
> as being in the database rises.

No.  Repeating the same analysis on slightly different frames merely
spreads the error rates out worse still.

A more detailed analysis: the system is based on a "similarity" score.
In different frames (at different angles, lighting, etc), the score
will vary.  In particular, it will look like a "bell" as the person
being identified passes through their 'best' profile, with a large
amount of noise superimposed on the curve.

This will happen even for people not in the database, since even
innocent people's faces look more like that of a miscreant than the
back of their head does, or their face at a drastically different
angle.

Now, the 4% error quoted is for the best case: a clear shot of the
subject's face under good consistent lighting at about the same angle
as the shots in their database.  


> If the threshold for flagging a particular person as being worth
> further investigation is set to be say 7+ positives out of 10 frames
> analysed, then the system can filter out many of the false positives
> and false negatives before raising it to a higher level of
> investigation.

Unfortunately not.  If you do that, then yes, you drop the chance of
misidentifying an innocent somewhat.  However, you grossly drop the
chance of correctly identifying someone in the database -- you'll
virtually *never* have a full 7 frames with a high score.  So you have
to lower your threshold (a lot), consequently increasing the chance of
misidentifying innocents.  If you do the maths on the identification
curves, you'll see that this always ends up with a worse trade-off
than before.  Although it 'sharpens' the identification curve, it
sharpens the *noise* in the curve even more.


> (and I would expect that the first level of investigation is simply
> to get a human operator to look at the screen and compare the image
> with that in the database...)

This would help, but means you need to employ someone full-time to
compare the images.  Furthermore, there is going to be a large overlap
between what the computer misidentifies and what a human would -- the
suspect and database image do have similar faces, after all.  Humans
aren't known for being that accurate either.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Apr 28 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide
Message-ID: <003501c1eefe$04116fc0$85e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Traveller's Aide #1 seems to be receiving a warm welcome, and several =
more issues are in preparation.=20

However, we're still open to anyone interested in writing future =
volumes.

All Traveller's Aides will be "official" traveller material and thus =
compatible with all versions of the rules. Stats for  T20 and CT are =
included in all. The "Home" setting of T20 is year 1000, which is close =
enough to the late-golden-age CT setting that supplements can be =
compatible with both. We have a wish-list but we're also open to =
suggestions.=20

We particularly need adventures of the LBB sort right now, and these =
need not be set in the T20 "Home" setting of Gateway Domain. I.e. if you =
have an adventure for CT set in the Marches or the Rim, Lishun Sector in =
Year 0, or wherever, we'll consider it.=20

Mail me direct for more details.=20


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Traveller's Aide #1 seems to be =
receiving a warm=20
welcome, and several more issues are in preparation. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>However, we're still open to anyone =
interested in=20
writing future volumes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>All Traveller's Aides will be =
"official" traveller=20
material and thus compatible with all versions of the rules. Stats =
for&nbsp; T20=20
and CT are included in all. The "Home" setting of T20 is year 1000, =
which is=20
close enough to the late-golden-age CT setting that supplements can be=20
compatible with both. We have a wish-list but we're also open to =
suggestions.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We particularly need adventures of the =
LBB sort=20
right now, and these need not be set in the T20 "Home" setting of =
Gateway=20
Domain. I.e. if you have an adventure for CT set in&nbsp;the Marches or =
the Rim,=20
Lishun Sector in Year 0, or wherever, we'll consider it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mail me direct for more details. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 16:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 15:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>
>> >>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you
>> >>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a
>> >>member.
>> >>
>> >>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960
>> >>correctly ID'ed.
>> >
>> >
>> > Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives.
>>
>> Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...
>>
>> IAC, this only makes my later analysis much worse.
>
> Ok, this takes into account any given analysis... so what happens when the
> system analyses several frames of the CCTV footage... The chances of the
> same Innocent person being repeatedly misidentified as being in the database
> surely falls, and similarly the chance of correctly identifying a criminal
> as being in the database rises.

The system *is* analyzing several frame, just to get *usable* data. 

Try a freeze frame on your VCR to see just how *bad* the resolution of
broadcast TV is. CCTV systems aren't any better. You have to
interpolate from several frames just to get enough detail. 

And the given error rate is most definitely *not* from analyzing a
single frame.

> If the threshold for flagging a particular person as being worth further
> investigation (and I would expect that the first level of investigation is
> simply to get a human operator to look at the screen and compare the image
> with that in the database...) is set to be say 7+ positives out of 10 frames
> analysed, then the system can filter out many of the false positives and
> false negatives before raising it to a higher level of investigation.

Again, you are completely off base with regards to how the analysis is
being done. It's *not* matching individual frames against *anything*.
It's using multiple frames to derive enough detauils to *attempt* a match.

It *has* to. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 16:03:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 15:03:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20428.143242.4c0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
>>>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
>>>member.
>>>
>>>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
>>>correctly ID'ed.
>> 
>> 
>> Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives. 
>
> Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...

It's just been too long since you used a slipstick. Getting the
decimals right there *mattered*. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 16:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 15:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fellow Travellers in Colorado
Message-ID: <3CCC740B.21C858AD@premier.net>

I'm going to be at Ft. Carson, CO, for a couple of months as I train up
for my upcoming Sinai tour.  According to Eris' TML roster, there are
three TMLers (past or present) in Colorado (John Lambert in Colorado
Springs, and Steve Deemer and Robert Uhl in Denver).

Any others out there?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Sickness and the Political Control of Information
In-Reply-To: <001301c1ee93$5bbcfd40$4e7354d2@1338700057>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk>
 <000e01c1ee6a$4f48ce00$52200050@matt>
 <001301c1ee93$5bbcfd40$4e7354d2@1338700057>
Message-ID: <m3elgzfn0r.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Jeffrey Malone" <nparker1971@ozemail.com.au> writes:
> 
> The bottom line: Jump Sickness has more to do with protecting the
> Imperial body politic from destabilising uncontrolled information
> flows, than its alleged victims.

I must disagree.  The impression I get from the TNS bulletins is that
jump sickness is denied to exist, due to the additional costs of trade
it would cause, and that Long has proof that it does.  But then, none
of the canon I've to hand mentions it.  Perhaps in some other fragment
it is explained that it is a known risk?

I also don't think that the Imperium would be locking up folks who
misjump great distances.  First of all, canon implies that the risks
of misjump are known both in magnitude and in frequency.  Secondly,
people would surely mention their imprisonment, unless brain-wiped.
Thirdly, how likely is it for an entire ship to be afflicted at once?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The fact that we have bodies is the oldest joke there is.  --C.S. Lewis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:03:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:03:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
In-Reply-To: <146.da76e8b.29fd3d17@aol.com>
References: <146.da76e8b.29fd3d17@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3adrnfmzb.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Olegamer@aol.com writes:

Emacs, at least, thinks that you wrote HTML.  Anyone have better
information?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the people of
the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own
arms.                            --Samuel Adams, brewer and patriot

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <m31yczfmrp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>
> Again, you are completely off base with regards to how the analysis
> is being done. It's *not* matching individual frames against
> *anything*.  It's using multiple frames to derive enough detauils to
> *attempt* a match.
> 
> It *has* to. 

Well, it has to unless the authorities mandate that eveyone approach
cameras in such a manner as to make the frames be identical to those
in the database.

`Comrade, approach the camera face-forward and stand still for 12
seconds!'

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
...a language is just an dialect with an army and a navy.
                                --Paul Tomblin, in a.s.r.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:10:04 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <B8F16629.58CB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8F16629.58CB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3662bfmwb.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> I suppose so.  Just for the record, officers pay for their own
> uniforms and meals.

And, at least in the Navy, at least when my father was in, their cooks
as well.  The best at the time were reputed to be Phillipino: not
overly expensive, but with an amazing command of culinary technique.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own
good, in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of
theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it.        --John Stuart Mill

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> 
> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> time.

Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
having an estimated breakout.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
                                                 --Mojo Nixon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk> <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3CCC847F.2ABA2927@premier.net>


"Robert Uhl " wrote:
> 
> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >
> > On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> > misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> > misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> > time.
> 
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

Ah, but passing the normal maximum by any significant amount should
start to worry you, regardless of your pre-calculated jump time.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk> <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020429093423.A25777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
[...suspecting misjump ...]
> Even passing further is no big deal.

Once you've got to the 98th percentile, you'd be having dark
suspicions.  The problem is that if the jump duration is known rather
precisely beforehand, the time between "all's well" and "oh my god,
we've misjumped" is rather too short for mere misgivings.


>  Indeed, without having an idea how long _this particular jump_ will
> be, there's no way of having an estimated breakout.

Of course there's an estimated breakout time: within 10% of 168 hours.
By the time you've reached the 99th percentile of that, the posterior
probability of misjump has increased 100-fold, and starting to look
comparably likely to merely a long but successful jump.

In the 'known duration' case specified, the time interval between the
99th and 100th percentiles for successful jumps is at least two orders
of magnitude shorter -- not enough time for vague suspicions and
speculations throughout the crew.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 17:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Population Modelling
In-Reply-To: <00e801c1cbc7$eea362a0$67da883e@fabian>
Message-ID: <20428.160746.5z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

I was catching up on old posts, and this jumped out at me...

In mail you write:

> As a mathematical exercise, I worked out that, assuming a free movement of
> populations (a false assumption), everyone is descended from everyone as
> of 500 years ago. This is based on teh fact that teh number of ancestors
> doubles every generation, but the total population decreases as you go
> back in time. Working out when teh two numbers are equal is a simple
> exercise...

Actually, there's a hidden assumption in there that destroys the idea.

The number of ancestors doubles each generation back *only* if there
are no common ancestors. With the current "rule" that first cousins
can't marry, but second cousins can, you can have common ancestors 3 or
4 generations back (I can't recall exactly how "second cousin" is
defined). 

Anybody who has done any detailed family trees that go back very far
will run into branches that cross this way.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 19:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Sun Apr 28 18:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <m31yczfmrp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <005d01c1ef1e$95858f20$9307b286@Shane>

Robert wrote:
> Well, it has to unless the authorities mandate that eveyone approach
> cameras in such a manner as to make the frames be identical to those
> in the database.
>
> `Comrade, approach the camera face-forward and stand still for 12
> seconds!'

You know, it strikes me that (barring Robert's suggestion above) this system
is stupidly easy to evade if you know where the cameras are, or even where
the cameras are likely to be.  Good luck to any system, automated or
otherwise, attempting to get a clear mugshot of someone who is trying not to
be recognized.  I'm not talking about pulling your jacket over your head, or
wearing a balaclava or anything silly like that.  Simply blowing your nose
on a handkerchief as you pass the camera; or looking down to brush something
off your shirt; or turning away to wave goodbye to someone.  There are
dozens of such stunts you can pull, and you can use a different one every
'checkpoint' you pass.  Maybe combine that with taking off your jacket
between checkpoints, and putting it back on after the next one to interfere
with the system identifying you by your clothes.

I think it comes back to the idea that a halfway intelligent criminal who
really doesn't want to be caught generally won't be caught.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- "And you're mo' smarter than the crooks on Miami Vice...
riiiight?"
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 19:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 28 18:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Population Modelling
In-Reply-To: <20428.160746.5z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <00e801c1cbc7$eea362a0$67da883e@fabian>
Message-ID: <3CCD4F3B.28144.D948ED@localhost>

On 28 Apr 2002 at 16:07, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> The number of ancestors doubles each generation back *only* if there
> are no common ancestors. With the current "rule" that first cousins
> can't marry, but second cousins can, you can have common ancestors 3 or
> 4 generations back (I can't recall exactly how "second cousin" is
> defined). 

Your second cousins are the children of your parents' first cousins.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 21:01:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 20:01:19 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
Message-ID: <3CCCB6E8.CF6883B@premier.net>

Yet another cruiser design from AuricTech, _Dido_ is primarily a killer
of smaller vessels, with 20 large NPAW linear bay weapons.

_Dido_, _Dido_ class Light Cruiser (FF&S v2)
Designed by AuricTech Shipyards

Statistics
Tons: 25000std ( SL Short Rnd Cylinder Hypersonic )
Dimensions: 125m x 62.1m x 62.1m
Volume: 350000m3
Mass (L/C): 324434t/311263t
Maintenance Points: 9989
Cargo: 200std (0/8 /Hdl:8x50ton)
Crew: 437/585
Cost: 29263.8 Mcr
Tech Level: 15
Size: 10

Electronics
Controls: Holographic, Standard automation. 24xFltComp (CM:0.2 CP:5.0).
4xFibComp
(CM:0.2 CP:5.0). Terrain following sensors (TF:570, NOE:190). Bridge.
Communications: 4xRadio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 8xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
1xMeson (1,000AU,
5MW).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (14 [50mkm], 0.05MW). 1xAEMS (12.5 [5mkm] LP, 50MW).
12xLIDAR
(15 [2mkm], 2.5MW).
ECM: 1xRadio Jammer (1,000AU, 0.4MW). 1xDecp. Jammer (12, 1.25MW).
1xPas. Jammer
(15, 0.63MW).
Signatures: Vis:-0.5, IR:0 (0 at 50801MW, -0.5 at 8100MW), Act:0, Neu:0,
Grav:2 (Military Black coating, Advanced IR masking, 1 level Stealth,
Neutrino masking)

Weaponry
1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750]
(LR)
20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
(LR)
20 x 15 Mj Quad Laser Turret (+6) 1/4-4-4-4 [4,800/10-10-10-10] (LR)
12xMissile Auto 1/8 ( /Mag:39 /MFD:500,000km) w/40 Cmd DL 1d6/2 6.0G12
1000AU

Additional Fire Control
2xBeam Master Fire Directors (0MW 500,000km)
2xMissile Master Fire Directors (0MW 500,000km)

Performance
4    Jump (2500std/pc fuel)
6/6.2     Maneuver (/Thruster:48265MW)
No Contra-grav
5000kph/5000kph Atmosphere (/Crus:3750kph/3750kph)
6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
10578.9   Fuel (/Scoop:3 /Purif:30,148MW)
580/20/150 Accomodations (Small stateroom/Large stateroom/Emergency Low
berth)
15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations for 600
crew)
6    G-Comp
18   Sandcasters ( /AV:70 /Cans:20)
715  Damper Screen (169MW)
715  Meson Screen (319.516MW)
100 [715] Armor, 52 Structure

Features
250xAirlock
4xDocking Umbilical
1xElectronic Shop (6std ea.)  
1xMachine Shop (10std ea.)    
4xSickbay (8std ea.)     
1xShip's locker (12.5std ea.)
10xArmory (2.14std ea.) (Capacity: 60 each)
6xGym (2.5std ea.)
3xLounge(44std ea.)
1xCIC(44std ea.)
4xOrdinary Galley (Cap:150)
4xFull Galley (Cap:150)       

Small Craft
1xSpacHgr (30std, 1 hatches)
3xDockRing (30std)       

Backups
Sensors: 2xPEMS (13.5 [16mkm]). 2xAEMS (12 [1.6mkm] LP). 24xLIDAR (14.5
[500kkm]).

Power & Fuel: Fusion (1000MW).
Crew Details
7 x Maneuver. 1 x Electronics. 326 x Engineer. 23 x Maintenance. 65 x
Gunner. 12 x Screen. 8 x Flight. 40 x Troops. 80 x Command. 19 x
Steward. 4 x Medical.

The _Dido_-class light cruiser is expressly intended to operate against
multiple smaller foes.  Although _Dido_ mounts the well-proven 11.144 Gj
NPAW found on many smaller AuricTech cruiser designs, her primary
purpose is to carry 20 smaller, yet still potent, NPAWs into battle. 
One NPAW of this type is capable of engaging a destroyer on equal terms;
_Dido_ mounts twenty such weapons.  Twelve missile bays add to _Dido's_
offensive punch, while AuricTech's proven 15-Mj quad-mount laser turrets
provide both effective point defense against missiles and useful
anti-ship capability against smaller vessels.

As with most AuricTech cruiser designs, _Dido_ is capable of extended
independent operations.  She carries 26 weeks of rations for her design
crew, with enough galley capacity to enable her to mess twice her design
complement.  Under normal manning, each of _Dido's_ crewbeings enjoys an
individual Small or Large stateroom.  _Dido's_ habitability is enhanced
both by her large enlisted and officer lounges, each of which has an
adjacent ordinary galley as a snack bar, and by her physical fitness
centers, which exceed Imperial standards.  Her MultiFlow Corporation
Extended life support system is rated to support double occupancy
indefinitely.  Routine maintenance far from base is facilitated by
_Dido's_ workshops and cargo bays.

All these capabilities are not achieved at the expense of performance.
_Dido_ is capable of the 6G/J4 performance expected of Imperial Navy
fleet units.


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 23:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 22:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Singularities
Message-ID: <200204290551.g3T5p4G05098@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Singularities
...
>To quote from someone else:
...
>Even in the Gulf War of 1991 which saw a force of almost 
>400,000 hammered by unlimited conventional airpower for a 
>month and attacked by a large modern mobile armor force with 
>an enormous technological advantage in weaponry, the 
>estimated casualty figure for Iraqi forces equals 
>approximately only 7.1 percent."

  Given that all of the previous figures in that thesis were
annualized (eg, 9.0 per 1,000 per year for WW2), isn't it
strange that this one figure isn't? Especially as it would
contravene their conclusion if it were presented the same way.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 02:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Mon Apr 29 01:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
References: <16f.cbfbaed.29fb394e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CCD0A2F.1080406@gmx.net>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
>>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
>>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>>>
>officer."
>
>>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
>>
>TOS.
>
>Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
>people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
>doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.
>
And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
Bakula...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 03:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 29 02:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Opinions, please
Message-ID: <004a01c1ef5c$d0e67b40$66d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a couple of questions for the list... consider this market =
research of a sort.

1. The Traveller's Aide series: what would folks like to see? The =
planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is there something =
specific?

For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
there prospective writers?

2. Some time ago I began work on a Traveller novel set during the =
Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems likely that the =
Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in a "Golden Age" =
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a couple of questions for the =
list...=20
consider this market research of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. The Traveller's Aide series: what =
would folks=20
like to see? The planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is =
there=20
something specific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what about a series of CT =
adventures=20
set in the Marches, circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make =
it worth=20
doing? Are there prospective writers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Some time ago I began work on a =
Traveller novel=20
set during the Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems =
likely=20
that the Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in =
a&nbsp;"Golden Age"=20
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the=20
Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 04:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 29 03:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20429.005102.9p1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
>> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
>> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
>> time.
>
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
will suspecyt there's a misjump.

>
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
> live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
> always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
>                                                  --Mojo Nixon
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 04:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Mon Apr 29 03:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>

In mail (Digest, which is why I'm so far behind:-), "Matthew Bond" 
<mattgbond@ntlworld.com> said...

<SNIP>
Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in 
the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
</SNIP>

I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4% 
failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company creating 
the system, or the local Police force.

*I* am merely repeating it.

To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently 
'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a lake 
have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in prison 
for perjury (telling lies in court).
Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the 
prisons are too overcrowded"...

ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the 
*whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her 
mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.

Jeff.
"I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 06:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Mon Apr 29 05:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern]
Message-ID: <3CCCF3C7.28630.3F7A8E@localhost>

I picked up a book called "The Yard" by Michael S Sanders
it covers the construction of an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer
from the keel up by the Bath Iron Works, and various techniques and some 
interesting pictures and diagrams

which leads into the question of how starships are built

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 06:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 05:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (OT) George Alec Effinger
Message-ID: <20020429.082943.-324537.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Some of you may already know this, but for those who haven't, George Alec
Effinger has passed away (it's been a rough couple of weeks for SF...
Damon Knight passed away not too long ago).  SJG's 'Daily Illuminator'
has more info: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 07:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Mon Apr 29 06:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B90@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: 29 April 2002 09:51
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >> 
> >> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> >> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> >> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> >> time.
> >
> > Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that 
> jump duration
> > is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that 
> passing the
> > minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> > average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, 
> without having
> > an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> > having an estimated breakout.
> 
> No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
> 168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
> will suspecyt there's a misjump.

Well, theres also the possiblity that the Astrogator miscalculated the
duration... so once the calculated time has elapsed the figures would be
checked and double checked. This will take some time. Then there will be
speculation that an uncharted massive body has interrupted the jump
route, thus throwing the duration out, even then one you get to 185
hours misjump will be the likely answer.

Also, IIRC, Jump sickness is more frequent in Misjumps, with onset of
headaches, dizzyness and nausea within 2-3 days of Jump initiation. So
that is likely to be the first indication of misjump rather than the
calculated duration passing.

And on the subject of Jump Sickness, I thought that Jeffery Long was the
guy that was in a coma after being the only known survivor of EVA during
Jump, and thus unshielded exposure to the Jump bubble. Simple Jump
Sickness is an accepted medical condition that some part of the
population suffers from in Jump, and which is more prevalent in a
misjump (and being one of the early telltales of a misjump)

As for the Illustration of a Jump Time Elapsed Display, rather than a
Countdown to Jump emergence, this may be to facilitate the Jump Exit
Lottery on the ship for passengers and crew. The Astrogator and Captain
may know when the ship is expected to exit Jump, but no-one else
necessarily does...

Matt 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 08:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Apr 29 07:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
References: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3pu0ibmj0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> An ex-Politician is in prison for perjury (telling lies in court).

Given that the entire basis of our court system is people telling the
truth in court, I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 09:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (allensh)
Date: Mon Apr 29 08:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
In-Reply-To: <3CCD0A2F.1080406@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <20020429150301.82010.qmail@web13908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> >tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military
> vessel, its organization is 
> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category
> does not exist. STAR TREK 
> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman
> aboard the U.S.S. 
> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified
> astronaut, therefore an 
> >>>
> >officer."

This was true in the original series, but not in the
later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 09:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Apr 29 08:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425.170405.-125887.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020429151026.74367.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
could prescribe that for our good General?


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> > On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> > 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three
> bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of
> Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.
> 
> Turokan
> 
> ..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.  
> ---   -       -..   .. 
>  .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..  
> ...-   .   --..--     
>  .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-  
> .-.   .       -   .... 
>  .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---  
> ..-.       -   ....   . 
>      .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 10:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Mon Apr 29 09:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <l03010d14b8f328581e59@[206.224.92.67]>

A message from Warehouse 23 to Traveller fans:

>The details of ordering and availability for the Traveller Limited Edition
>Hardcover haven't been finalized yet.  We will make an announcement as soon
>as everything has been confirmed.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a collection of existing Traveller
>items.  It will be sold through normal distribution and you can get it at
>your friendly local game store, or through Warehouse 23.  Just to clear up
>some confusion: no, it isn't preorder only.
>
>If there's anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me
>here at orders@sjgames.com.

Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
the word out.

We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.

The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
through the normal FLGS channels.



Loren



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <l03010d14b8f328581e59@[206.224.92.67]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429101934.009ecc00@mindspring.com>

At 11:47 AM 4/29/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
>them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
>the word out.
>
>We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
>and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
>through the normal FLGS channels.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf 
shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429101934.009ecc00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEKLDMAA.tml@downport.com>

http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry

> I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Message-ID: <F273WORuXB3QvCzI3Jj000037f8@hotmail.com>

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Brilliant!  I love it."


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  Please have fun using it in your campaigns.  You can 
see from the GM-imposed hardware/software/manning requirements that it was a 
definite "fun quotient" tweak.

     "This should become part of canon, methinks."

     Nope, that's going way too far.  This is absolutely a MTU/YTU rule 
only.  Besides, I got a sneaking suspicion that many folks already have 
something like it in their TUs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Message-ID: <200204291255.AA4128904@caddocourt.com>

From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
>--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
>> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>> >>>officer."
>
>This was true in the original series, but not in the
>later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
>was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
>were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Again, TNG was also "officer-only" for its first couple of seasons.  And Colm Meany's character was clearly an officer (specifically a Lt).  It was only post-Rodenberry where they introduce enlisted personel and "redefined" Colm Meany's character into the enlisted O'Brien.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Donald McKinney)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with reprint of Double Adventures...
Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E011405E2@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>

Ok, I spilled a dark substance on page 1 of the "Stranded on Arden" adventure in my *NEW* reprints book.

Is it possible to get someone to send me a photocopy of pages 1 and 2 of the "Stranded on Arden" adventure?  Sigh...


DonM.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with reprint of Double Adventures...
Message-ID: <200204291920.FGU00108@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Donald McKinney says
>Ok, I spilled a dark substance on page 1 of the "Stranded on 
>Arden" adventure in my *NEW* reprints book.
>

Ah, the dreaded Coffee...
________________
NO! Sentence first, verdict after!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22737@USCHM203>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
>circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
>there prospective writers?

>2.(re-Traveller Novel)So; supposing we serialized it in =
>the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?

Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:00 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #454 - 15 msgs


Send TML mailing list submissions to
	tml@travellercentral.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Re: Star Trek (Robert Houghton)
   2. Opinions, please (MJ Dougherty)
   3. Re: Re: Piracy assumptions (Leonard Erickson)
   4. Re: Big Brother (Jeff Rowse)
   5. an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern] (shadowcat)
   6. (OT) George Alec Effinger (knightsky@juno.com)
   7. RE: Re: Piracy assumptions (Matthew Bond)
   8. Re: Re: Big Brother (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
   9. Re: Re: Star Trek (allensh)
  10. Re: RAH and libertarianism (Paul Walker)
  11. (no subject) (Loren Wiseman)
  12. Re: (no subject) (Douglas Berry)
  13. RE: (no subject) (Swordy)
  14. Re: Grote's Clan Ships (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
  15. Re: Re: Star Trek (Mike West)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:54:07 +1000
From: Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
>>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK

>>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>>>
>officer."
>
>>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
>>
>TOS.
>
>Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
>people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
>doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.
>
And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
Bakula...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:03:35 +0100
Subject: [TML] Opinions, please
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a couple of questions for the list... consider this market =
research of a sort.

1. The Traveller's Aide series: what would folks like to see? The =
planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is there something =
specific?

For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
there prospective writers?

2. Some time ago I began work on a Traveller novel set during the =
Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems likely that the =
Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in a "Golden Age" =
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a couple of questions for the =
list...=20
consider this market research of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. The Traveller's Aide series: what =
would folks=20
like to see? The planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is =
there=20
something specific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what about a series of CT =
adventures=20
set in the Marches, circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make =
it worth=20
doing? Are there prospective writers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Some time ago I began work on a =
Traveller novel=20
set during the Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems =
likely=20
that the Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in =
a&nbsp;"Golden Age"=20
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the=20
Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220--


--__--__--

Message: 3
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 00:51:02 PST
Organization: Shadownet
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
>> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
>> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
>> time.
>
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
will suspecyt there's a misjump.

>
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
> live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
> always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
>                                                  --Mojo Nixon
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


--__--__--

Message: 4
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:52:01 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail (Digest, which is why I'm so far behind:-), "Matthew Bond" 
<mattgbond@ntlworld.com> said...

<SNIP>
Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in

the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
</SNIP>

I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4% 
failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company creating 
the system, or the local Police force.

*I* am merely repeating it.

To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently 
'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a lake 
have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in prison

for perjury (telling lies in court).
Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the 
prisons are too overcrowded"...

ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the 
*whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her 
mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.

Jeff.
"I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:18:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern]
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I picked up a book called "The Yard" by Michael S Sanders
it covers the construction of an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer
from the keel up by the Bath Iron Works, and various techniques and some 
interesting pictures and diagrams

which leads into the question of how starships are built

--__--__--

Message: 6
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:29:40 -0400
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: [TML] (OT) George Alec Effinger
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Some of you may already know this, but for those who haven't, George Alec
Effinger has passed away (it's been a rough couple of weeks for SF...
Damon Knight passed away not too long ago).  SJG's 'Daily Illuminator'
has more info: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:41:44 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com



> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: 29 April 2002 09:51
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >> 
> >> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> >> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> >> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> >> time.
> >
> > Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that 
> jump duration
> > is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that 
> passing the
> > minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> > average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, 
> without having
> > an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> > having an estimated breakout.
> 
> No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
> 168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
> will suspecyt there's a misjump.

Well, theres also the possiblity that the Astrogator miscalculated the
duration... so once the calculated time has elapsed the figures would be
checked and double checked. This will take some time. Then there will be
speculation that an uncharted massive body has interrupted the jump
route, thus throwing the duration out, even then one you get to 185
hours misjump will be the likely answer.

Also, IIRC, Jump sickness is more frequent in Misjumps, with onset of
headaches, dizzyness and nausea within 2-3 days of Jump initiation. So
that is likely to be the first indication of misjump rather than the
calculated duration passing.

And on the subject of Jump Sickness, I thought that Jeffery Long was the
guy that was in a coma after being the only known survivor of EVA during
Jump, and thus unshielded exposure to the Jump bubble. Simple Jump
Sickness is an accepted medical condition that some part of the
population suffers from in Jump, and which is more prevalent in a
misjump (and being one of the early telltales of a misjump)

As for the Illustration of a Jump Time Elapsed Display, rather than a
Countdown to Jump emergence, this may be to facilitate the Jump Exit
Lottery on the ship for passengers and crew. The Astrogator and Captain
may know when the ship is expected to exit Jump, but no-one else
necessarily does...

Matt 

--__--__--

Message: 8
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Big Brother
From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: 29 Apr 2002 08:35:31 -0600
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> An ex-Politician is in prison for perjury (telling lies in court).

Given that the entire basis of our court system is people telling the
truth in court, I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

--__--__--

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> >tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military
> vessel, its organization is 
> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category
> does not exist. STAR TREK 
> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman
> aboard the U.S.S. 
> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified
> astronaut, therefore an 
> >>>
> >officer."

This was true in the original series, but not in the
later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
could prescribe that for our good General?


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> > On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> > 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three
> bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of
> Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.
> 
> Turokan
> 
> ..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.  
> ---   -       -..   .. 
>  .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..  
> ...-   .   --..--     
>  .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-  
> .-.   .       -   .... 
>  .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---  
> ..-.       -   ....   . 
>      .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:47:47 -0500
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

A message from Warehouse 23 to Traveller fans:

>The details of ordering and availability for the Traveller Limited Edition
>Hardcover haven't been finalized yet.  We will make an announcement as soon
>as everything has been confirmed.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a collection of existing Traveller
>items.  It will be sold through normal distribution and you can get it at
>your friendly local game store, or through Warehouse 23.  Just to clear up
>some confusion: no, it isn't preorder only.
>
>If there's anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me
>here at orders@sjgames.com.

Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
the word out.

We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.

The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
through the normal FLGS channels.



Loren



--__--__--

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:21:03 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 11:47 AM 4/29/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
>them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
>the word out.
>
>We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
>and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses
out.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
>through the normal FLGS channels.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf 
shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


--__--__--

Message: 13
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] (no subject)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:16 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry

> I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



--__--__--

Message: 14
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:40:58 +0000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Brilliant!  I love it."


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  Please have fun using it in your campaigns.  You can 
see from the GM-imposed hardware/software/manning requirements that it was a

definite "fun quotient" tweak.

     "This should become part of canon, methinks."

     Nope, that's going way too far.  This is absolutely a MTU/YTU rule 
only.  Besides, I got a sneaking suspicion that many folks already have 
something like it in their TUs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:55:27 -0500
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
>--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is

>> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR
TREK 
>> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>> >>>officer."
>
>This was true in the original series, but not in the
>later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
>was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
>were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Again, TNG was also "officer-only" for its first couple of seasons.  And
Colm Meany's character was clearly an officer (specifically a Lt).  It was
only post-Rodenberry where they introduce enlisted personel and "redefined"
Colm Meany's character into the enlisted O'Brien.

Mike West


--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:43:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:43:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Opinions, please (MJ Dougherty)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22738@USCHM203>


-----Original Message-----
From: Hurrel, Brian 
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:39 PM
To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
Subject: From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>


"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
>circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
>there prospective writers?

>2.(re-Traveller Novel)So; supposing we serialized it in =
>the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?

Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:00 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #454 - 15 msgs


Send TML mailing list submissions to
	tml@travellercentral.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	tml-request@travellercentral.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
	tml-admin@travellercentral.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Re: Star Trek (Robert Houghton)
   2. Opinions, please (MJ Dougherty)
   3. Re: Re: Piracy assumptions (Leonard Erickson)
   4. Re: Big Brother (Jeff Rowse)
   5. an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern] (shadowcat)
   6. (OT) George Alec Effinger (knightsky@juno.com)
   7. RE: Re: Piracy assumptions (Matthew Bond)
   8. Re: Re: Big Brother (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
   9. Re: Re: Star Trek (allensh)
  10. Re: RAH and libertarianism (Paul Walker)
  11. (no subject) (Loren Wiseman)
  12. Re: (no subject) (Douglas Berry)
  13. RE: (no subject) (Swordy)
  14. Re: Grote's Clan Ships (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
  15. Re: Re: Star Trek (Mike West)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:54:07 +1000
From: Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
>>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK

>>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>>>
>officer."
>
>>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
>>
>TOS.
>
>Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
>people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
>doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.
>
And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
Bakula...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:03:35 +0100
Subject: [TML] Opinions, please
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a couple of questions for the list... consider this market =
research of a sort.

1. The Traveller's Aide series: what would folks like to see? The =
planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is there something =
specific?

For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
there prospective writers?

2. Some time ago I began work on a Traveller novel set during the =
Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems likely that the =
Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in a "Golden Age" =
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a couple of questions for the =
list...=20
consider this market research of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. The Traveller's Aide series: what =
would folks=20
like to see? The planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is =
there=20
something specific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what about a series of CT =
adventures=20
set in the Marches, circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make =
it worth=20
doing? Are there prospective writers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Some time ago I began work on a =
Traveller novel=20
set during the Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems =
likely=20
that the Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in =
a&nbsp;"Golden Age"=20
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the=20
Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220--


--__--__--

Message: 3
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 00:51:02 PST
Organization: Shadownet
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
>> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
>> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
>> time.
>
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
will suspecyt there's a misjump.

>
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
> live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
> always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
>                                                  --Mojo Nixon
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


--__--__--

Message: 4
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:52:01 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail (Digest, which is why I'm so far behind:-), "Matthew Bond" 
<mattgbond@ntlworld.com> said...

<SNIP>
Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in

the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
</SNIP>

I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4% 
failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company creating 
the system, or the local Police force.

*I* am merely repeating it.

To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently 
'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a lake 
have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in prison

for perjury (telling lies in court).
Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the 
prisons are too overcrowded"...

ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the 
*whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her 
mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.

Jeff.
"I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"

_________________________________________________________________
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--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:18:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern]
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I picked up a book called "The Yard" by Michael S Sanders
it covers the construction of an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer
from the keel up by the Bath Iron Works, and various techniques and some 
interesting pictures and diagrams

which leads into the question of how starships are built

--__--__--

Message: 6
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:29:40 -0400
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: [TML] (OT) George Alec Effinger
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Some of you may already know this, but for those who haven't, George Alec
Effinger has passed away (it's been a rough couple of weeks for SF...
Damon Knight passed away not too long ago).  SJG's 'Daily Illuminator'
has more info: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:41:44 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com



> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: 29 April 2002 09:51
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >> 
> >> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> >> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> >> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> >> time.
> >
> > Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that 
> jump duration
> > is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that 
> passing the
> > minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> > average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, 
> without having
> > an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> > having an estimated breakout.
> 
> No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
> 168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
> will suspecyt there's a misjump.

Well, theres also the possiblity that the Astrogator miscalculated the
duration... so once the calculated time has elapsed the figures would be
checked and double checked. This will take some time. Then there will be
speculation that an uncharted massive body has interrupted the jump
route, thus throwing the duration out, even then one you get to 185
hours misjump will be the likely answer.

Also, IIRC, Jump sickness is more frequent in Misjumps, with onset of
headaches, dizzyness and nausea within 2-3 days of Jump initiation. So
that is likely to be the first indication of misjump rather than the
calculated duration passing.

And on the subject of Jump Sickness, I thought that Jeffery Long was the
guy that was in a coma after being the only known survivor of EVA during
Jump, and thus unshielded exposure to the Jump bubble. Simple Jump
Sickness is an accepted medical condition that some part of the
population suffers from in Jump, and which is more prevalent in a
misjump (and being one of the early telltales of a misjump)

As for the Illustration of a Jump Time Elapsed Display, rather than a
Countdown to Jump emergence, this may be to facilitate the Jump Exit
Lottery on the ship for passengers and crew. The Astrogator and Captain
may know when the ship is expected to exit Jump, but no-one else
necessarily does...

Matt 

--__--__--

Message: 8
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Big Brother
From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: 29 Apr 2002 08:35:31 -0600
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> An ex-Politician is in prison for perjury (telling lies in court).

Given that the entire basis of our court system is people telling the
truth in court, I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

--__--__--

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> >tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military
> vessel, its organization is 
> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category
> does not exist. STAR TREK 
> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman
> aboard the U.S.S. 
> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified
> astronaut, therefore an 
> >>>
> >officer."

This was true in the original series, but not in the
later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
could prescribe that for our good General?


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> > On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> > 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three
> bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of
> Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.
> 
> Turokan
> 
> ..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.  
> ---   -       -..   .. 
>  .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..  
> ...-   .   --..--     
>  .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-  
> .-.   .       -   .... 
>  .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---  
> ..-.       -   ....   . 
>      .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:47:47 -0500
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

A message from Warehouse 23 to Traveller fans:

>The details of ordering and availability for the Traveller Limited Edition
>Hardcover haven't been finalized yet.  We will make an announcement as soon
>as everything has been confirmed.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a collection of existing Traveller
>items.  It will be sold through normal distribution and you can get it at
>your friendly local game store, or through Warehouse 23.  Just to clear up
>some confusion: no, it isn't preorder only.
>
>If there's anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me
>here at orders@sjgames.com.

Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
the word out.

We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.

The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
through the normal FLGS channels.



Loren



--__--__--

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:21:03 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 11:47 AM 4/29/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
>them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
>the word out.
>
>We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
>and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses
out.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
>through the normal FLGS channels.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf 
shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


--__--__--

Message: 13
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] (no subject)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:16 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry

> I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



--__--__--

Message: 14
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:40:58 +0000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Brilliant!  I love it."


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  Please have fun using it in your campaigns.  You can 
see from the GM-imposed hardware/software/manning requirements that it was a

definite "fun quotient" tweak.

     "This should become part of canon, methinks."

     Nope, that's going way too far.  This is absolutely a MTU/YTU rule 
only.  Besides, I got a sneaking suspicion that many folks already have 
something like it in their TUs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:55:27 -0500
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
>--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is

>> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR
TREK 
>> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>> >>>officer."
>
>This was true in the original series, but not in the
>later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
>was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
>were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Again, TNG was also "officer-only" for its first couple of seasons.  And
Colm Meany's character was clearly an officer (specifically a Lt).  It was
only post-Rodenberry where they introduce enlisted personel and "redefined"
Colm Meany's character into the enlisted O'Brien.

Mike West


--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:48:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:48:00 2002
Subject: [TML] From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22737@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>

At 03:38 PM 4/29/02 -0400, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
>"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
> >circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
> >there prospective writers?
>
> >2.(re-Traveller Novel)So; supposing we serialized it in =
> >the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?
>
>Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?
[big honking snip]

request #1:  Please do not include the entire digest for a one line reply.

request #1:  Please do not send 'styled' text to the list.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 14:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 13:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with reprint of Double Adventures...
Message-ID: <20020429.130950.-72731.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:20:50 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> Donald McKinney says
> >Ok, I spilled a dark substance on page 1 of the "Stranded on 
> >Arden" adventure in my *NEW* reprints book.
> >
> 
> Ah, the dreaded Coffee...
> ________________
> NO! Sentence first, verdict after!

Guilty!

On old books it's forgiveable, but never on new...

Make him walk the plank Captain, arrgh.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 14:16:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 13:16:11 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020429.130950.-72731.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Paul

On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
> on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
> year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
> could prescribe that for our good General?
> 
> 
> --- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
>  > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
>
 > Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> > and my disability
> > pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.

Ah, thanks Paul, it's such a nice jesture.

Perhaps I could stow aboard a freighter?

ObTrav:
So just how could you get off world in my case?
I can't work.
I need assistance.
My funds are tied to this world mandating that I stick around or I don't
get paid.

 Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 15:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Mon Apr 29 14:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
References: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ccd9cd0.1320581@post.demon.co.uk>

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:


>To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently=20
>'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a =
lake=20
>have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in =
prison=20
>for perjury (telling lies in court).
>Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the=20
>prisons are too overcrowded"...

What's your argument regarding the politician?  That since we all know
politicians are liars anyway, nobody should be surprised or offended
if they tell lies in court as well?  Even if the politician in
question deliberately falsified his testimony in order to win a libel
case and thereby secure 6- or7-figure financial damages from the other
party?  Seems to me that's a far worse crime than simple mugging or
car theft...

Also, if you can point me to any real case in any country in the world
where a person accused of rape did not stand trial because "the jails
are full", I'd like to hear it.  I know some countries have "prison
amnesties", and others have been known to extend schemes for parole
and early release, but that's for tried and convicted criminals who
have already served part of their sentence... and I doubt that the
scheme would extend to such a serious crime as rape.  But I'm willing
to be proved wrong if you have evidence.

ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
request.  He states that he is currently engaged in a messy divorce,
and it would be very helpful to his case if the players were willing
to swear that he was having dinner with them on a particular evening.
He offers a generous financial inducement to do this, and suggests to
the players that they should make a formal written deposition before a
lawyer then leave planet.  He promises to only use the deposition if
his wife's lawyers raise that particular evening in court.

If the players agree, then on their next visit to the world (which
might not be for a significant time), they discover that the
politician is still happily married, and won a multi-million credit
settlement in a libel case against a media organisation - thanks
entirely to their (false) evidence.  Do they:

a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
b)  Report the case to the authorities?
c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?

Of course, the problem is that their own involvement in the case was
criminal;  and the politician is a highly respected member of the
governing party and personal friend of the planet's leader.  The media
group that lost the case is keen for redress and could help them, but
it is also running scared of the politician's influence having been
burned once already.  Can the players prove their side of the story?
(Perhaps they can gain access to CCTV camera footage of the night in
question <g> ?)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 16:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 15:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Advanced Battle Armor
Message-ID: <f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39@aol.com>

--part1_f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Hi gang, while surfing the WWweb, I found mention of an article in JTAS 
#3, apparently by a Bob Barger (? I'm having a heck of a time reading my own 
scrawl), called Advanced Battle Armor (?).
   If someone has that issue handy, could they share the particulars?
   Thanks :)
  -Ken Murphy-

--part1_f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi gang, while surfing the WWweb, I found mention of an article in JTAS #3, apparently by a Bob Barger (? I'm having a heck of a time reading my own scrawl), called Advanced Battle Armor (?).
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;If someone has that issue handy, could they share the particulars?
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 17:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Star Trek
Message-ID: <15b.d29cb96.29ff2d05@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/29/2002 2:02:37 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
>Bakula...

You kids today . . .              :  )

I did this once before -- isn't in the archives someplace?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 18:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr 29 17:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3ccd9cd0.1320581@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000201c1efdf$ca99b120$0b01a8c0@duck>

> ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
> world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
> request.  He states that he is currently engaged in a messy divorce,
> and it would be very helpful to his case if the players were willing
> to swear that he was having dinner with them on a particular evening.
> He offers a generous financial inducement to do this, and suggests to
> the players that they should make a formal written deposition before a
> lawyer then leave planet.  He promises to only use the deposition if
> his wife's lawyers raise that particular evening in court.
> 
> If the players agree, then on their next visit to the world (which
> might not be for a significant time), they discover that the
> politician is still happily married, and won a multi-million credit
> settlement in a libel case against a media organisation - thanks
> entirely to their (false) evidence.  Do they:
> 
> a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
> b)  Report the case to the authorities?
> c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?
> 
> Of course, the problem is that their own involvement in the case was
> criminal;  and the politician is a highly respected member of the
> governing party and personal friend of the planet's leader.  The media
> group that lost the case is keen for redress and could help them, but
> it is also running scared of the politician's influence having been
> burned once already.  Can the players prove their side of the story?
> (Perhaps they can gain access to CCTV camera footage of the night in
> question <g> ?)

[I hate to use the whole thing for such a short answer, but I wanted to
keep the context.]

Considering the deal the players made in the first place, a sudden
attack of ethics would seem to be a bit out of place.  They willingly
lied and got paid for it.  Seems pretty bizarre that they would care
that the politician used it for different purposes.

Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 19:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 18:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <20020429.182302.-125801.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:41:39 -0500 "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
writes:
> > ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
> > world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
> > request.  
<snipage>
> > a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
> > b)  Report the case to the authorities?
> > c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?
> > 
> 
> Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
> now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?
> 
> Mike West

Though up front I'd agree and choose [a], if looking deeper I could
choose [c].

My assumption is:
1. The players are already involved in a blackmail scheme against the
politician's wife.
Why?
Money.
If they had scruples, they wouldn't have taken the credits in the first
place.

2. The politician received a huge settlement.
A or some of the players bent on greed may have spent their credits, and
now want more to keep quiet.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 20:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr 29 19:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <20020429.182302.-125801.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>

generalturokan@juno.com
> On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:41:39 -0500 "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
> writes:
> > > ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
> > > world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
> > > request.  
> <snipage>
> > > a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
> > > b)  Report the case to the authorities?
> > > c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?
> > > 
> > 
> > Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
> > now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?
> 
> Though up front I'd agree and choose [a], if looking deeper I could
> choose [c].
> 
> My assumption is:
> 1. The players are already involved in a blackmail scheme against the
> politician's wife.
> Why?
> Money.
> If they had scruples, they wouldn't have taken the credits in the first
> place.
> 
> 2. The politician received a huge settlement.
> A or some of the players bent on greed may have spent their credits, and
> now want more to keep quiet.

I have to admit that I did have the assumption that the politician was
continuing to be friendly to them.  If so, I still stick with [a].  If,
however, the politician becomes hostile for some reason, then I completely
agree that [c] is quite appropriate.

The problem is that if the players pick [c], they probably need to add
that planet to their list of places to avoid for a while.  If they chose
[a], the planet could quite possibly be a good destination, instead.

I do want to note that I think we both agree that [b] is quite pointless.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 20:42:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 19:42:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <20020429.182302.-125801.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020429224441.00e45840@buffnet.net>

Of course, were I that politician, I'd consider the fact that *all* of the
potential loose ends can be tied up neatly together, by exploding a bit of
cheap missile weaponry upon the ship...  (and it would look like piracy
too!)  At the very least, pay a bomber to bomb the ship through a cutout on
the grounds of "insurance"...

;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 21:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 20:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <20020429.203207.-125683.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 22:44:41 -0400 hal@buffnet.net writes:
> Of course, were I that politician, I'd consider the fact that *all* 
> of the
> potential loose ends can be tied up neatly together, by exploding a 
> bit of
> cheap missile weaponry upon the ship...  (and it would look like 
> piracy
> too!)  At the very least, pay a bomber to bomb the ship through a 
> cutout on
> the grounds of "insurance"...
> 
> ;)
> 

Ooooo, nice closing touch. The politician takes the lead.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 23:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr 29 22:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <20413.122049.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429160538.02a58ab0@mail.qrc.com>

At 08:59 PM 4/21/02, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
> > Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
> > Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system.
>
>All i am reporting is what the average user, the "plug & pray" type, have 
>told me in the shop.

In my humble opinion, this is the difference between someone in Traveller 
with computer skill, and someone who doesn't.  I assume that someone who is 
from a moderate tech or higher (TL-8+) background can use a computer for 
normal sorts of activities (word processing, looking up references, etc.) 
without computer skill, and without needing to make a roll to operate the 
computer.  On the other hand, "unusual" use of the computer - bypassing 
security restrictions, reading nonstandard files or media, finding 
information that was deliberately obscured, obscuring information that you 
don't want people to find, and that sort of thing are what Computer skill 
is for.

>That some of the Os is put on the disk in what I know as track and 
>sectors. I was told that the track and sectors for this information change 
>with the upgrades.

All operating systems (that I'm aware of) organize a disk into tracks and 
sectors (or cylinders, heads, and sectors which is basically the same 
thing).  For floppy disks, the newer operating systems have more options 
than the old ones, but all are "upward compatible" - the new operating 
system knows how to read the older format.  If you have an old floppy, as 
long as the media hasn't physically degraded, Windows XP can read a disk 
formatted and written from an old 286-based Windows 2 machine.  And Office 
XP can read the Word for Windows file format.

>Therefore this is a reason why newer systems have trouble or can't read
>the older disks.

The usual reason isn't incompatibility but media degradation.  Floppy disks 
were never intended for archival storage of data; they're better than many 
forms of magnetic tape, but aren't going to last forever.  When I worked 
for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, we had a tape 
library that contained satellite data for US weather satellites (going back 
to the first data sent from the very first, in the 1950's).  As part of the 
maintenance of the library, tapes were pulled for check reads (once every 5 
or 10 years, I believe) and any that had begun to degrade were re-recorded 
onto new media.

If you've got computer data that you want to store for the long haul, right 
now the best bet is to burn it to a CD-ROM.  Unlike floppies, the CD-ROM 
file format is a world-wide standard published by the International 
Standards Organization.  It works a lot like I envisioned Traveller media 
standards.  There is a published standard that is available to anyone who 
cares to read it that sets out exactly what is required to read (or write) 
audio or data to a CD-ROM - from the composition of the media all the way 
through the organization of the data.  Any computer that supports CD-ROM 
drives, can read an ISO disk.  Some - mainly those with Microsoft operating 
systems - can write other formats as well; those disks only work with 
compatible Microsoft operating systems.

>I would think that there are Imperial standards for navigation. Set 
>probably by the ISS.

I'd say that the IISS (and in particular the Imperial Grand Survey) has a 
standard format for navigational data, and probably a small number of 
different media that they support.  Thus, there may be thousands of 
different manufacturers of starship avionics in the Imperium, and thousands 
more software houses that write navigational software.  But they can all 
read IISS navigational data, and they all come equipped with an Imperial 
data reader that can read at least one of the media types that the IISS 
supports.

The same goes for basic data transfer of other types.  The IISS (in this 
case via the Express Boat network) has a set of standard formats and media 
types for messages: text, audio, still image, video, holo, and probably a 
couple of other formats for data that is commonly transferred over the 
Xboat network.  A good model for this is the venerable GIF format for 
pictures - it was promulgated by Compuserve, back in the day, much the same 
way that the Xboat system would promulgate standard data formats in the 
Imperium.  Even though Compuserve is now gone, the GIF format still endures 
- and almost any computer can read it.

> > The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
> > either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
> > to import and export files in those formats.
>
>In Traveller, on frontiere worlds that are doing their own thing. This 
>could grow into a sense of "National" pride. Or the thought of being 
>"forced" into
>something.

IMTU, this sort of compatibility isn't forced on manufacturers by 
legislation.  The standards are made available by the IISS (for free or a 
very nominal price) to anyone who asks for them, and don't incorporate any 
proprietary technology or techniques - so that anyone who reads and 
understands the standard can build hardware or software that's 
compatible.  There's no legal requirement that anyone do so ... BUT there's 
also a strong disincentive in the market.  If two computers are available, 
both of which can read both the "local" formats and media, but only one of 
which can talk to Imperially-based navigation, news, and Xboat traffic 
systems, which one will eventually win in the market place?  Particularly 
if there is no significant cost difference?  There may well be local file 
and media formats - but sooner or later, everyone will be able to read the 
Imperial formats one way or another.

However, this is an on-going process: worlds that recently developed the 
technology, or were recently incorporated into the Imperial interstellar 
economy, are likely to be in transition, with the market forces still 
sorting things out.


>  Still I suspect that there is something going on in the
>computer line. Where the files are sent say from the x-boat to panet and
>revers. Where it is translated to the usable format for the receptor of
>the information.
>
> > Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
> > equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
> > finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice.
>
>  Myself, I am working on converting PET to geoWrite 2.1 then converting
>the final output to Ascii for upload to the places I write for through the
>Inet. I can do the revese and prefere to do all my writing in GeoWrite 2.1
>Takes just a few minutes to convert back and forth. Perhaps that is a
>thought for the Imperial mail at least. Though expanded for images and
>text for the local systems.
>
>BCNU
>
>--
>  *****
>******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
>**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
>**            Chancellor & Editor for
>**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
>******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
>  *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 00:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 29 23:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3ccd9cd0.1320581@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20429.214428.7c5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Also, if you can point me to any real case in any country in the world
> where a person accused of rape did not stand trial because "the jails
> are full", I'd like to hear it.  I know some countries have "prison
> amnesties", and others have been known to extend schemes for parole
> and early release, but that's for tried and convicted criminals who
> have already served part of their sentence... and I doubt that the
> scheme would extend to such a serious crime as rape.  But I'm willing
> to be proved wrong if you have evidence.

The local jails are having to release a *lot* of folks *before* trial
and hope they show up for trial due to the need to have space available
if there are riots this May Day.

There *are* rules for who gets released bnased on some sort of "points"
assigned at booking.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 01:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 30 00:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
Message-ID: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

This has become something of a TML tradition.  Every April 30, someone posts
this to the TML. This time, it's me.

##########

This battle took place on the 30th of April 1863, during the campaign of
Mexico. It is celebrated each year, on the anniversary of this date, by all
the regiments of the French Foreign Legion.

History: 

The French Army was besieging Puebla.

The mission of the Legion was to ensure the movement and safety of the
convoys, over an 80 mile distance. On the 29th of April 1863, Colonel
Jeanningros was informed that an important convoy was on its way to Puebla,
with a load of 3 million francs, and material and munitions for the seige.
Captain Danjou, his quartermaster, decided to send a company to escort the
convoy. The 3rd company of the Foreign Regiment was assigned to this
mission, but had no officers available. So Captain Danjou, himself, took the
command and 2nd lieutenants Maudet, company guide, and Vilain, the
paymaster, joined him voluntarily.

On the 30th of April, at 1 a.m., the 3rd company was on its way, with its 3
officers and 62 men. At 7 a.m., after a 15 mile march, it stopped at Palo
Verde in order to get some rest. At this very moment, the enemy showed up
and the battle began. Captain Danjou made the company take up a square
formation and, even though retreating, he victoriously drove back several
cavalry charges, inflicting the first heavy losses on the enemy .

By the inn of Camerone, a large building with a courtyard protected by a
wall 3 meters high, Danjou decided to stay, in order to keep the enemy and
so delay for as long as possible, any attacks on the convoy.

While the legionnaires were rapidly setting up the defense of the inn, a
Mexican officer demanded that Captain Danjou surrender, pointing out the
fact that the Mexican Army was greatly superior in number.

Danjou's answer was: "We have munitions. We will not surrender." Then, he
swore to fight to the death and made his men swear the same. It was 10 a.m.
Until 6 p.m., these 60 men who had had nothing to eat or drink since the day
before, in spite of the extreme heat, of the thirst and hunger, resisted
against 2,000 Mexicans: 800 cavalry and 1,200 infantry.

At noon, Captain Danjou was shot in the chest and died. At 2 p.m., 2nd
lieutenant Vilain was shot in the head. About this time, the Mexican colonel
succeeded in setting the inn on fire.

In spite of the heat and the smoke, the legionnaires resisted, but many of
them were killed or injured. By 5 p.m., only 12 men could still fight with
2nd lieutenant Maudet. At this time, the Mexican colonel gathered his
soldiers and told them what disgrace it would be if they were unable to
defeat such a small number of men. The Mexicans were about to give the
general assault through holes opened in the walls of the courtyard, but
Colonel Milan, who had previously asked 2nd lieutenant Maudet to surrender,
once again gave him the opportunity to. Maudet scornfully refused.

The final charge was given. Soon, only 5 men were left around Maudet;
Corporal Maine, legionnaires Catteau, Wensel, Constantin and Leonard. Each
had only one bullet left. In a corner of the courtyard, their back against
the wall, still facing the enemy, they fixed bayonets. When the signal was
given, they opened fire and fought with their bayonets. 2nd lieutenant
Maudet and 2 legionnaires fell, mortally wounded. Maine and his 2 remaining
companions were about to be slaughtered when a Mexican officer saved them.
He shouted: "Surrender"!

"We will only if you promise to allow us to carry and care for our injured
men and if you leave us our guns".

"Nothing can be refused to men like you"!, answered the officer.

Captain Danjou's men had kept their promise; for 11 hours, they had resisted
2,000 enemy troops. They had killed 300 of them and had injured as many.
Their sacrifice had saved the convoy and they had fulfilled their mission.

Emperor Napoleon the 3rd decided that the name of Camerone would be written
on the flag of the Foreign Regiment and the names of Danjou, Vilain and
Maudet would be engraved in golden letters on the walls of the Invalides, in
Paris. 

Moreover, a monument was built in 1892, at the very place of the fight. The
following inscription can be read there :

HERE, THEY WERE LESS THAN SIXTY
AGAINST A WHOLE ARMY
ITS MASS CRUSHED THEM
BUT LIFE RATHER THAN COURAGE
ABANDONED THESE FRENCH SOLDIERS
THE 30TH OF APRIL 1863.
TO THEIR MEMORY THE NATION BUILT THIS MONUMENT.

Since then, when Mexican troops pass by the monument, they present arms.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 03:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 02:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Seems to me that the TML is very quiet right now... I was getting hundreds
of posts a couple of weeks back.

Anyway, here's how things stand here:

Traveller's Aide #1 is out, #2 is in layout. We have drafts for 3-5 more due
in over the next few days. Depending what order they come in, the next
volumes will include a sourcebook on ground vehicles, a ready-NPC book and
an adventure. All CT compatible as well as T20, as usual.

Question is, what do folks want?

All our materials will be T20 compatible - that's a necessity - but we have
the leeway to support CT and the entire Traveller timeline. That means: CT
adventures set in the Marches or the Rim, major sourcebooks on.... whatever.
We're open to suggestions. Tell us what you want from the product line, and
we'll see what we can do....

Regards

MJD







From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 03:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 02:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <01af01c1f02a$4016c010$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Comments are invited...

Some time ago Marc and I began work on a Traveller/naval SF novel. It had a
different title back then but now it's called "The Last Hurrah". Set in the
Interstellar Wars, it was going to be the Traveller Novel, but it seems more
sensible to set a print novel in the "current" Traveller universe. That
leaves Last Hurrah as a bit of an orphan.

Now, what I'm thinking of doing is serializing it as part of the Quiklink
line (but separate from the Traveller's Aide series), as a series of PDFs of
LBB size (say 20,000 words each).

Consider this market research; I need to know if it's worth editing,
reformatting and such like before doing it (very busy right now, as you
might guess).

One note: Marc hasn't got time to work on this; although he co-authored the
early chapters (and had a LOT of creative input), this is not the great Marc
Miller novel. I don't want to mislead anyone on that score.

But anyway: The Last Hurrah is about a band of Terran naval officers during
the Interstellar Wars. I don't want to give much more away than that, but I
might be willing to post the Prologue on the Quiklink site....








Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 04:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 03:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Reviews
Message-ID: <01d301c1f02e$1765e480$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Here's an offer for you...

We're looking for reviewers... and we've got bribes.

We're offering $25 worth of Quiklink Products (*anything* Quiklink sells) to
the first three reviewers to post their comments to the TML.

Here's how it works:

If you're interested, mail me direct. We'll give you a free copy of
Traveller's Aide #1. Once your review is posted, you can cash in your Cr25
for anything Quiklink has to offer.

There are a couple of requirements though:

1. the review must be longer than "it sucks" or even "it sets off
decompression alarms"
2. we'd like to be able to repost the review elsewhere as needed

If you're interested, let me know ASAP.




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 04:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 03:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020316084747.B31496@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20430.013319.6P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Another oldie getting replied to.

In mail you write:

> Daniel Tackett wrote:
>
>> > to (as I recall) *50* times the mass. 
>
>> I hate to butt in, but out of curiosity. Could a gas
>> giant that large be skimmed?
>
> Not a chance, unless your tech greatly exceeds Traveller levels.
> Either you skim at orbital velocities, which are huge and hence you
> get *really hot*, or not, in which case you immediately fall due to
> insufficient thrust.
>
>
>> I find it hard to believe that a gas giant of any size
>> could be skimmed considering the pull of gravity.
>
> In Traveller, some ships could probably cope with up to 3 Jupiter
> masses.  Specialised unmanned skimming 'missiles' could cope with up
> to about 10.

Don't forget that gas giants more massive than Jupiter will be
*smaller*. Which means that gravity at "skimming altitude" will be even
stronger than the simple mass increase would indicate.

Any of the astronomers on the list have even a *rough* formula or table
for the way gas giant diameter varies with mass?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
In-Reply-To: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>

At 10:13 AM 4/30/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>Seems to me that the TML is very quiet right now... I was getting hundreds
>of posts a couple of weeks back.
>Anyway, here's how things stand here:
>Traveller's Aide #1 is out, #2 is in layout. We have drafts for 3-5 more due
>in over the next few days. Depending what order they come in, the next
>volumes will include a sourcebook on ground vehicles, a ready-NPC book and
>an adventure. All CT compatible as well as T20, as usual.
>Question is, what do folks want?
>All our materials will be T20 compatible - that's a necessity - but we have
>the leeway to support CT and the entire Traveller timeline. That means: CT
>adventures set in the Marches or the Rim, major sourcebooks on.... whatever.
>We're open to suggestions. Tell us what you want from the product line, and
>we'll see what we can do....

I really like the CT compatibility.  I'm in several PBEMs that use CT.

Hmm...the Marches are really nice, but how about some RIM and Reavers' Deep 
material first.
Lots of stuff out already for the Marches.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine.
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020429.130950.-72731.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020430121047.21439.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

You do lots of volunteer data entry for the TAS and
hope to get paid with a free membership, then you only
need to scrape enough money together to eat.  TAS
gives you a high passage per month, plus lodging.  Of
course, you may be stuck somewhere undesireable for a
month until you get your next HiPsg.

Paul


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> ObTrav:
> So just how could you get off world in my case?
> I can't work.
> I need assistance.
> My funds are tied to this world mandating that I
> stick around or I don't
> get paid.
> 
>  Turokan



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <3cce7ff8.11067789@post.demon.co.uk>

"Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com> writes:

>I have to admit that I did have the assumption that the politician was
>continuing to be friendly to them.  If so, I still stick with [a].  If,
>however, the politician becomes hostile for some reason, then I =
completely
>agree that [c] is quite appropriate.

Actually, my assumption was that the politician had pretty much
forgotten their existence - they were off-worlders who were useful to
him for a while, got paid off and left town.
>
>The problem is that if the players pick [c], they probably need to add
>that planet to their list of places to avoid for a while.  If they chose
>[a], the planet could quite possibly be a good destination, instead.
>
>I do want to note that I think we both agree that [b] is quite =
pointless.

In the real-life situation this is based on, the person giving the
politician the original alibi chose (b).  Go figure...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <025b01c1f042$9094c060$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> I really like the CT compatibility.  I'm in several PBEMs that use CT.
>
> Hmm...the Marches are really nice, but how about some RIM and Reavers'
Deep
> material first.
> Lots of stuff out already for the Marches.

Sounds cool. Anyone care to write some?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 07:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Apr 30 06:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <F218qk0qcITzSOFI3Jz00003ef4@hotmail.com>

OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?


>From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] (no subject)
>Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:16 -0400
>
>http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
>
> > I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> > shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!
>
>



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 30 06:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <F218qk0qcITzSOFI3Jz00003ef4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCELIDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Ummm.... Avery!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Andrew MacLintock
>
> OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?
>
> >From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
> >
> >http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> >
> > > I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> > > shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 07:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 06:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
In-Reply-To: <025b01c1f042$9094c060$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430094632.00b85cb0@urbin.net>

At 01:28 PM 4/30/02 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > I really like the CT compatibility.  I'm in several PBEMs that use CT.
> > Hmm...the Marches are really nice, but how about some RIM and Reavers'
>Deep
> > material first.
> > Lots of stuff out already for the Marches.
>Sounds cool. Anyone care to write some?

There was a lot of material written for Reavers' Deep by the TNE Pocket group.
The Deep was the domain of the Keith Brothers, and we had permission from 
them to update for TNE.

Some members of that group (like myself) are still on the TML.
Material from there could be published pretty much 'as is' for TNE.

For other era'/timelines, it could be modified.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 08:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 07:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020430094632.00b85cb0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <02a701c1f050$eed3c370$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> There was a lot of material written for Reavers' Deep by the TNE Pocket
group.
> The Deep was the domain of the Keith Brothers, and we had permission from
> them to update for TNE.
>
> Some members of that group (like myself) are still on the TML.
> Material from there could be published pretty much 'as is' for TNE.
>
> For other era'/timelines, it could be modified.
>

I think I'd like to see this.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 08:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue Apr 30 07:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (sorta OT) Fw: [FT] Naval Manpower
Message-ID: <006a01c1f04d$29923400$1f9e15ac@warrior>

I think you guys can figure out the obtrav for this one :)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Donogh McCarthy" <donoghmc@hotmail.com>
To: <gzg@firedrake.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:15 AM
Subject: [FT] Naval Manpower


>
>
> Interesting article on Northrops new naval designs
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5236-2002Apr29.html
>
> In relation to the new Destroyer Class design it states:
>
> "Under the plan, sailors' standard of living also would be drastically
> improved. For example, three-tier bunk beds would be replaced with
> staterooms shared by as many as three sailors and outfitted with computers
> and Internet connections. Crew sizes would drop from 300 to 125, then
> eventually to 95. "It allows the Navy to free up a lot of resources,"
> [defense analyst Jay] Korman said.
>
> Questions arising from this:
>
> 1. What kind of % of total personnel is there is each area of operations
on
> board a military naval vessel?
>
> 2. Presumably there as some tasks manpower is always needed for, that
can't
> be automated. What kind of tasks would these be, and what plausible sci-fi
> elements could lead to these being done by automation?
>
> 3. Also presumably you need 2-3 times the number of people needed to do
all
> the jobs. Does anyone see this aspect of crew requirments as ever being
able
> to change?
>
> 4. Would crew comfort, health etc. be a bigger concern in space, and would
> this lead to larger vessels or smaller crews; or shorter deployment times?
>
> Any thoughts?
> Donogh
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 08:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 07:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
In-Reply-To: <02a701c1f050$eed3c370$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020430094632.00b85cb0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430104838.00b887e0@urbin.net>

At 03:11 PM 4/30/02 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > There was a lot of material written for Reavers' Deep by the TNE Pocket
>group.
> > The Deep was the domain of the Keith Brothers, and we had permission from
> > them to update for TNE.
> > Some members of that group (like myself) are still on the TML.
> > Material from there could be published pretty much 'as is' for TNE.
> > For other era'/timelines, it could be modified.
>I think I'd like to see this.

I have the full archives squirrelled away somewhere, plus they are also 
online, somewhere, in compressed format.

For a start, take a look at some my stuff:

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/sa-sc.html>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/rangetruck.html>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/tl5-6_seaplane.html>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/Venice_data.htm>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
Message-ID: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>

--part1_15e.cff6a74.2a000c32_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Folks,

Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/

The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
product line.

For those of you who are JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in
Brubek's on Wednesday evening to discuss the changes and what they
mean for the fan community. There should be another chat next week if
you can't make the May 1 one. Both Loren and I subscribe to this mailing
list too, so we're available for any discussions.

Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be working with Loren and Marc
Miller on the continued development of the Traveller universe. Traveller has
been a favorite of mine for over twenty years, so the chance to contribute in
this fashion is very gratifying.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_15e.cff6a74.2a000c32_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Folks,
<BR>
<BR>Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:
<BR>
<BR>http://www.sjgames.com/ill/
<BR>
<BR>The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
<BR>Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
<BR>will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
<BR>product line.
<BR>
<BR>For those of you who are JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in
<BR>Brubek's on Wednesday evening to discuss the changes and what they
<BR>mean for the fan community. There should be another chat next week if
<BR>you can't make the May 1 one. Both Loren and I subscribe to this mailing
<BR>list too, so we're available for any discussions.
<BR>
<BR>Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be working with Loren and Marc
<BR>Miller on the continued development of the Traveller universe. Traveller has
<BR>been a favorite of mine for over twenty years, so the chance to contribute in
<BR>this fashion is very gratifying.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_15e.cff6a74.2a000c32_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Thanks!
Message-ID: <l03010d06b8f46090bf4e@[206.224.92.67]>

As I do every Quarter, I would like to thank the gentlesophonts on the TML
for ordering books and stuff from Amazon.com through the link on my web
page.

For those who don't know, I get a 5% bounty on almost anything you order
provided you use the button on

http://www.lorenwiseman.com

Scroll down, hit the button (which will take you to Amazon) and then order
normally. It doesn't cost you anything extra (except a little time), and
you will help subsidize my reading habit. If you are going to buy something
through Amazon anyway, why not toss me a little something extra?

LKW



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
References: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02ed01c1f05a$50cf4b90$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_02EA_01C1F062.9FF0E370
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to=20
Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and=20
will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the=20
product line.=20

For those of you who are JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in=20
Brubek's on Wednesday evening to discuss the changes and what they=20
mean for the fan community. There should be another chat next week if=20
you can't make the May 1 one. Both Loren and I subscribe to this mailing =

list too, so we're available for any discussions.=20

Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be working with Loren and Marc =

Miller on the continued development of the Traveller universe. Traveller =
has=20
been a favorite of mine for over twenty years, so the chance to =
contribute in=20
this fashion is very gratifying.=20



***** Stands up and cheers ******

That's great. Not only good guys at the helm but it shows a commitment =
to the GT line at SJG.

Okay, back to work now,,,,

Regards

MJD

------=_NextPart_000_02EA_01C1F062.9FF0E370
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>The executive summary =
is that Loren=20
Wiseman is being promoted to <BR>Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. =
I've=20
been named Line Editor and <BR>will be assisting Loren with planning and =

day-to-day management of the <BR>product line. <BR><BR>For those of you =
who are=20
JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in <BR>Brubek's on Wednesday =
evening=20
to discuss the changes and what they <BR>mean for the fan community. =
There=20
should be another chat next week if <BR>you can't make the May 1 one. =
Both Loren=20
and I subscribe to this mailing <BR>list too, so we're available for any =

discussions. <BR><BR>Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be =
working with=20
Loren and Marc <BR>Miller on the continued development of the Traveller=20
universe. Traveller has <BR>been a favorite of mine for over twenty =
years, so=20
the chance to contribute in <BR>this fashion is very gratifying.=20
<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>***** Stands up and =
cheers=20
******</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>That's great. Not only =
good guys at=20
the helm but it shows a commitment to the GT line at =
SJG.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>Okay, back to work=20
now,,,,</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2>Regards</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT=20
size=3D2>MJD</DIV></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_02EA_01C1F062.9FF0E370--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
In-Reply-To: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020430083905.009f8430@mindspring.com>

At 12:27 AM 4/30/02 -0700, you wrote:
>HERE, THEY WERE LESS THAN SIXTY
>AGAINST A WHOLE ARMY
>ITS MASS CRUSHED THEM
>BUT LIFE RATHER THAN COURAGE
>ABANDONED THESE FRENCH SOLDIERS
>THE 30TH OF APRIL 1863.
>TO THEIR MEMORY THE NATION BUILT THIS MONUMENT.

We used to have this read to us in the Army.  Someday, I want to visit the 
monument.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML Haiku
Message-ID: <200204301610.FII07851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

This one is a "generic combat", but I'm sure some of you have 
ObTrav haiku you've thought of.  They don't have to be combat 
oriented, either

Red streak of tracers
Steady thump of machinegun
Splintering tree limbs
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:14:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:14:08 2002
Subject: [TML] More TML Haiku
Message-ID: <200204301613.FII08329@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ok, one more ObTrav

Sparkling laser beams
Tinny sound of suit alarm
Hissing air escapes
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] just one more
Message-ID: <200204301628.FIK01334@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

And for those of you standing on the surface of a gas giant's 
moon....

Gleaming arc of rings
Frozen nitrogen crunches
Boots leave my footprints
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:38:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:38:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <F12ZUr3CrJRxKZMqA4d00004f37@hotmail.com>

In mail, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> rightly points out that...

<SNIP>
...the entire basis of our court system is people telling the truth in 
court...
</SNIP>

That wasn't the point though.  The point was supposed to be a commentary on 
the British (In)Justice system.
If he had killed a six-year-old girl standing on a pavement (sidewalk) next 
to a pedestrian crossing whilst he was driving under the influence of 
alcohol, he would have been given a GB250 fine and a three month suspended 
sentence.
But because he (shock, horror) omitted to tell the *whole* truth and 
slightly 'bent' what truth he did tell in a libel case against a national 
newspaper, he gets a five year jail sentence.


<SNIP>
...I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.
</SNIP>

Make the punishment fit the crime.  The "gentleman" in question did not 
physically hurt anyone, or steal from them.  He was not a danger to the 
public.
If his lies had resulted in people being hurt then yes, jail him.  All this 
has done is make more people realise what a stupid bunch of incompetent 
jerks we have for judges in England.
Another example, a judge sentenced a young man (I think the charge was 
disturbing the peace - again, nobody suffered physically) to something like 
a GB1500 fine, and then refused to believe the kid was only getting 
something like GB100 a week in wages stacking shelves at the local 
supermarket.  The supermarket manager had to provide their salary and tax 
records before the judge would believe it...

Jeff.
"Take cover?  Why, he can't hit us from over th..."

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML Haiku
In-Reply-To: <200204301610.FII07851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020430093325.009e8330@mindspring.com>

At 12:10 PM 4/30/02 -0400, you wrote:
>This one is a "generic combat", but I'm sure some of you have
>ObTrav haiku you've thought of.  They don't have to be combat
>oriented, either

Traveller Mail List
Three hundred in the mail box
Reading all morning

Near-C rock flame again?
This argument never ends
Perhaps piracy?

Free trader jumping
Laughs at the laws of physics
Boring week in here

Bright career in Scouts
Hoping for my own Type S
3? Damn, I have died!

Sex and politics
Tend to dominate the list
Find ObTrav, stat!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:48:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:48:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <200204301644.FIK03907@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Jeff Rowse" says
>Make the punishment fit the crime.  The "gentleman" =
in =

>question did not physically hurt anyone, or steal from =

>them.  He was not a danger to the public.
>If his lies had resulted in=
 people being hurt then yes, jail =

>him.  All this has done is make more people realise what a =

>stupid bunch of incompetent jerks we have for judges in =

>England.
>Another example, a judge sentenced a young man (I think the =
=

>charge was disturbing the peace - again, nobody suffered =

>physically) to something like a GB=A31500 fine, and then =

>refused to believe the kid was only getting =

>something like GB=A3100 a week in wages stacking shelves at =

>the local supermarket.  The supermarket manager had to =

>provide their salary and tax records before the judge would =

>believe it...
>

Drunken killer walks
Perjurer gets jail sentence
=
And this is justice?

________________
Sunlight on windows
Office bu=
ildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 11:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 10:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
In-Reply-To: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
References: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200204301320030096.0DA6983B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
>Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
>will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
>product line.

Congratulations to the both of you! Traveller continues to be well=
 represented at SJG!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 11:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 30 10:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] More TML Haiku
Message-ID: <20020430173521.6110.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

Not the best Haiku, but while we were at the topic...

Haiku are very strange
SciFi can be even stranger yet
Together seems fit

TML is quiet
Haiku can save the day here
Reading to think on

Paper, pens, and die
Two D6 thank you very much
All we need for fun

Marc, Loren, et al
You built a play universe
Thank you much for Trav


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:16:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:16:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
Message-ID: <memo.996438@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Thank you for keeping this fine tradition alive.

They always say that 2 dates are important to the French Foreign Legion - 
1863 and 1664.

We have just heard, as is right and proper, about 1863.

And 1664? - it's printed on the side of every can of Kronenburg beer, a 
favourite beverage amongst Legionnaires :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:19:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:19:01 2002
Subject: [TML] TML- Travellers' Aide
Message-ID: <memo.996439@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Greetings dear hearts.

I would like to see: -

Equipment - NOT just weapons, but the useful everyday stuff that players 
always want to acquire as they plan the next job, and you end up quickly 
calculating Travelleresque prices and descriptions around everyday items.

Medical (and recreational) drugs properly developed. And some good 
illnesses which the drugs can be used to treat... :-)

Well-detailed planets to visit. 

A fully-detailed starport (ground port or up port...).

Shops and businesses - how often do your players say "I'm looking for a 
clothes shop or a coffee bar" and you have to make it up on the fly?

Just some thoughts...

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:23:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
Message-ID: <memo.996441@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
Hoo-yah!!!

Warmest congratulations and blessings for the future to both of you :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
Message-ID: <20020430184406.48777.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

Back in 97, when I was last in Trav, we were working
on THUDD.  Is THUDD still around?  If so, where is it
happening?  In the immortal words of #5, "Need more
input!"

Thanks for any info.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 13:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 12:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML- Travellers' Aide
In-Reply-To: <memo.996439@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430150810.00b84e80@urbin.net>

At 07:15 PM 4/30/02 +0100, Megan Robertson wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
>Greetings dear hearts.
>I would like to see: -
>Equipment - NOT just weapons, but the useful everyday stuff that players
>always want to acquire as they plan the next job, and you end up quickly
>calculating Travelleresque prices and descriptions around everyday items.

Ah yes...the standard kit collects.

Personal Computer & Personal Communications Units (Percomps & Percomms).
I like to combine the two into a single unit with multiple I/O interfaces 
starting at TL 8 and getting more feature rich and robust (and more 'shock 
resistant') as TLs rise.

Multitools: General, survival, electronic, etc.

Vacc suits and PLSS units at various TLs.  Showing the range between a TL A 
Rescue Ball and a TL F tailored (skin) vacc suit.

Field gear, survival gear, what the well dressed business soph on Regina is 
wearing this year.

Typical layout for a Naval Corpsman assigned to an Imperial Marine Rapid 
Response Force...

etc., etc.

>Medical (and recreational) drugs properly developed. And some good
>illnesses which the drugs can be used to treat... :-)
>
>Well-detailed planets to visit.
>
>A fully-detailed starport (ground port or up port...).
>
>Shops and businesses - how often do your players say "I'm looking for a
>clothes shop or a coffee bar" and you have to make it up on the fly?
>
>Just some thoughts...
>
>Hugs and kisses,
>
>Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
In-Reply-To: <20020430184406.48777.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CCEB33B.7146.D337F2@localhost>

Paul

As far as I know THUDD died shortly after GURPS Traveller came 
out and disputes about which design system to use started.  I am 
not sure of the details because I started lurking for the most part 
since G.T. came out.  Someone else might be able to help more.  


Tim

> Back in 97, when I was last in Trav, we were working
> on THUDD.  Is THUDD still around?  If so, where is it
> happening?  In the immortal words of #5, "Need more
> input!"
> 
> Thanks for any info.
> 
> Paul
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
In-Reply-To: <20020430184406.48777.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020198030.2060.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> Back in 97, when I was last in Trav, we were working
> on THUDD.  Is THUDD still around?

THUDDD died a long time ago; it looks like it went irregular in early 1998,
lost momentum, and seems to have died entirely by 2000.

There was a ship-building contest on JTAS, but it seems to be being pretty
unreliable too.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020430.132748.-162959.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Paul

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> You do lots of volunteer data entry for the TAS and
> hope to get paid with a free membership, then you only
> need to scrape enough money together to eat.  TAS
> gives you a high passage per month, plus lodging.  Of
> course, you may be stuck somewhere undesireable for a
> month until you get your next HiPsg.

Ah yes, my word. The old perverbial "volunteer data entry for the TAS "
routine. Of course I might starve before then. NO, WAIT! I can eat at
Chaplain Bari's soup kitchen, yeah, that's the ticket.

Now if TAS will just drop me off in NZ I'll be fine, cash in my high
passage each month, no problem.

Turokan

>  --- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> > ObTrav:
> > So just how could you get off world in my case?
> > I can't work.
> > I need assistance.
> > My funds are tied to this world mandating that I
> > stick around or I don't
> > get paid.
> > 
> >  Turokan
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
Message-ID: <200204302040.FIS03034@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net  says
>As far as I know THUDD died shortly after GURPS Traveller 
>came out and disputes about which design system to use 
>started.  I am not sure of the details because I started 
>lurking for the most part since G.T. came out.  Someone else 
>might be able to help more.  
>

Maybe we should start THUDD again, but this time, have 
different rule divisions.  That way, people compete in the 
rule sets they want to compete in, rather than having 
to "eat" a single rule set.

I've noticed that everyone has their own favorite, so there's 
no sense in limiting us to one rule set.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 15:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 14:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.141101.-161815.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

TML'ers

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> You do lots of volunteer data entry for the TAS and
> hope to get paid with a free membership. 

Speaking of data entry, or writing of anything I would appreciate it If
you all would kindly try this out. It's how I actually type.

Place your right hand in front of your keyboard, fingers facing left,
palm up.
Now stand up.
Keeping your index finger against the front edge of your keyboard, hand
relaxed, begin typing ONLY using your right thumb.
The other catch - don't move your arm muscles, just shift your weight,
and type from shoulder shifting.
To use the shift key I can get my left thumb to hold it
down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My head is also limp, my chins buried in my chest.

That's it folks.

Turokan

> --- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> > ObTrav:
> > So just how could you get off world in my case?
> > I can't work.
> > I need assistance.
> > My funds are tied to this world mandating that I
> > stick around or I don't
> > get paid.
> > 
> >  Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 15:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Apr 30 14:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
In-Reply-To: <20020430.141101.-161815.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020430.141101.-161815.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <m3k7qo2891.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Do you use any accessibility tools?  I understand that most systems
come with the ability to have `sticky' keys--that is, shift acts like
a soft caps lock, or the shift on a Palm.  Tap shift once, and it's on
for one character; tap it twice, and it's on for good; tap it a third
time and it's off.  The same applies to ctrl and alt, of course.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
...It [the Mexican dictatorship] has demanded us to deliver up our arms,
which are essential for our defence, the rightful property of freemen,
and formidable only to tyrannical governments...
          --Texas Declaration of Independence

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 15:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 14:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20430.013319.6P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020316084747.B31496@freeman.little-possums.net> <20430.013319.6P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020501074423.A30174@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Any of the astronomers on the list have even a *rough* formula or
> table for the way gas giant diameter varies with mass?

Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
dwarf mass.  Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
increasing temperatures.  Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.

It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <01c301c1f096$8feb55d0$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

We've had considerable response to our request for reviewers. The 3 bribe
packages are long gone, and we have several more potential reviewers.

If you replied and I haven't been in touch yet, nudge me, will you? It's
late and I may have missed some.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 16:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 15:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Line Editor Haikus
Message-ID: <01c401c1f097$3104f160$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


New game book is out
QuikLink needs publicity
Asked the List for help

Many replies came
People wanting freebie book
Mailbox is now full




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 17:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 16:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.160031.-125169.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Robert

On 30 Apr 2002 15:20:58 -0600 ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
writes:
> Do you use any accessibility tools?

No, no ones showed me how.

>  I understand that most systems
> come with the ability to have `sticky' keys--that is, shift acts 
> like
> a soft caps lock, or the shift on a Palm.  Tap shift once, and it's 
> on
> for one character; tap it twice, and it's on for good; tap it a 
> third
> time and it's off.  The same applies to ctrl and alt, of course.

I've seen info in passing, but never looked into it in depth.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Tue Apr 30 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Line Editor Haikus
References: <01c401c1f097$3104f160$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <004301c1f09c$cd426710$9307b286@Shane>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> New game book is out
> QuikLink needs publicity
> Asked the List for help
> 
> Many replies came
> People wanting freebie book
> Mailbox is now full

Don't look at me man
Marketing plug not in vain
I bought the darn thing!
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Please take this credit card away from me
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 17:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Apr 30 16:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
In-Reply-To: <20020430.160031.-125169.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020430.160031.-125169.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <m3wuuo927f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

generalturokan@juno.com writes:

>
> > Do you use any accessibility tools?
> 
> No, no one's showed me how.

You should def. ask around.  They can really make life easier when
typing's a chore.

> I've seen info in passing, but never looked into it in depth.

In Linux, one can simply change the key definitions from Control to
SControl, Alt to SAlt, Shift to SShift.  There's also Morseall
<http://morseall.org/>, which allows one to tap out morse code on a
mouse button to control a text shell.

On Macs & Windows, there's a control panel which gives one that sort
of option.

I imagine that using a mouse is Right Out for you.  You may wish to
investigate a command-line only interface, as that is meant to be used
straight from the keyboard, and won't expect a mouse movement at an
inconvenient time.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Every man, woman, and responsible child has a natural, fundamental,
and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right
(within the limits of the Non-Aggression Principle) to obtain, own,
and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon--handgun, shotgun, rifle,
machinegun, anything--any time, anywhere, without asking anyone's
permission.                                       --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
Message-ID: <bc.25d5fa44.2a008f10@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?

Marc's evil twin Morc

LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:26:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:26:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: News
Message-ID: <10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8@aol.com>

--part1_10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:

> >Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:
> >
> >http://www.sjgames.com/ill/
> >
> >The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
> >Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
> >will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
> >product line.
> 

And, of course, Jon beat me to it.

What he said.

LKW

--part1_10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time, tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;http://www.sjgames.com/ill/<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to<BR>
&gt;Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and<BR>
&gt;will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the<BR>
&gt;product line.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
And, of course, Jon beat me to it.<BR>
<BR>
What he said.<BR>
<BR>
LKW</FONT></HTML>

--part1_10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.172641.-125169.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Robert

On 30 Apr 2002 17:49:40 -0600 ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com writes:
>  >
> > > Do you use any accessibility tools?
> > 
> > No, no one's showed me how.
> 
> You should def. ask around.  They can really make life easier when
> typing's a chore.
>  
> On Macs & Windows, there's a control panel which gives one that sort
> of option.

I use Windows, I'll need to test it.

> I imagine that using a mouse is Right Out for you.  

No, on the contrary, the mouse I use best. That is - once I get my arm up
onto the desk. Copy and paste is my best action.

Thanks,

Now where'd I leave my grav-belt?

Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F86Dv60gxapzhad2VqK00006ba3@hotmail.com>

>From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>
>>Rupert Boleyn posted:
>>On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:48, wombat@premier.net wrote:
>>>Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my
>>>designs for _Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).
>>>Note that all three of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry
>>>PAW spinal mounts; I've never been a big fan of meson guns.
>>>Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of meson
>>>guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that ecological
>>>niche.
>>
>>I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
>>really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.
>
>First of all, thank you to all of those who replied. Patrik, I'm
>going to mine your site this evening for ideas! Your "Recurrent
>Glory"-class is positively stunning.

<blushes>

>As for meson guns..yeah, I never liked 'em. Never, that is, until
>I saw Patrik's website. How about a 406 Gj Meson Spinal mount that
>can punch through a cruiser's meson screen (and armor) at Long
>distance?

To the best of my knowledge the effectiveness of Meson guns have varied 
rather dramatically between editions but I have to agree that they are only 
marginally effective in space combat under the FFS2/MCS combo (I know/care 
very little about the T4 space combat system). Some of the smaller ships I 
designed with Meson guns should probably perform better with PAWs (but then 
most of them are experiments to see how effective Meson guns are with MCS).

Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of PAWs that 
Dimashq doesn't need to try to fill that ecological niche. ;)

IMO meson guns only become somewhat effective in ship-to-ship combat with 
tunnel lengths of 500 m or more (IIRC the Recurrent Glory has a 690 m Meson 
Gun). The biggest advantage in game is that their existence forces ships to 
carry Meson screens that add another factor into the acceleration vs. armour 
vs. stealth equation. The biggest disadvantages that they have short range 
and that hit probability analysis suggest that it's harder to hit a target 
with a meson gun (a effect simulated by MCS). An evasive strategy that is 
optimal for Meson guns will however be less efficient against Lasers and 
PAWs (unless shot at from more than one direction).


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:55:14 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <200205010054.FJA02801@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>Subject: Re: [TML] A Challenge  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>No, on the contrary, the mouse I use best. That is - once I 
>get my arm up onto the desk. Copy and paste is my best 
>action.
>
I've got a Microsoft trackball that helped the arm strain go 
away (seems I get tense using a regular mouse). That, and I 
use IBM ViaVoice to type a lot.  Initially, I had to make a 
lot of corrections, but it knows me now. Not so good for web 
pages, but that's what the mouse is for.  It's very good for 
dictation in Word.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:59:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:59:08 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <F86Dv60gxapzhad2VqK00006ba3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020214606.5089.ajackson@ping>

Patrik Holmstr=F6m writes:

> To the best of my knowledge the effectiveness of Meson guns have varied=
=20
> rather dramatically between editions but I have to agree that they are on=
ly
>  marginally effective in space combat under the FFS2/MCS combo

Specifically, there's not much point to range beyond short, due to the evas=
ion
effects.  Meson guns have a bunch of interesting tactical uses because you =
can
hide behind a planet or deep in a gas giant and use a forward observer in a
fighter (yeah, that's not discussed in MCS).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:05:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:05:07 2002
Subject: [TML] reloading example
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020319202156.009eb8c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20430.171325.3s0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Mark, you have one of *everything.*
>
> One of my "win the lottery" plans is establish residency in Oregon, get the 
> proper paperwork, and have you show me where to go shopping.  :)

Well, there's always "Fairly Honest Don's Machine Gun Parlor" out in
Hillsboro. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>

From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
>>This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking 
>> >>about a X-ray laser so it needs to be at least TL13.
>
>That doesn't necessarily follow.  TL13 is where controlled and
>contained Xray weapon lasers appear, is it not?

That's why I said probably. However if we want to build a ChemDet warhead 
using the canon laser rules (or a slightly tweaked version) ChemDets will 
suck big time unless they are grav focused or use X-ray wavelengths.


>I would expect detonation lasers to appear *much* earlier; TL8 or 9.

Are you talking about NukeDets or ChemDets here?


> >Can a lasing rod (as used in NukeDets) also be used with chemicals?
>
>Almost certainly nuclear detonation lasers are nothing like chemical
>ones.  They would be based on gamma/hard Xray radiation input to begin
>with, and chemical reactions never generate such radiation.

I thought so too, nice to have it confirmed.


> > Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow
> > up) or something more powerful (that does)?
>
>The latter, I would expect.  A cartridge that doesn't blow up is
>over-engineered for this task.

Yeah, I would like self-destructing cartridges as well and since we already 
have Chemical Laser Cartridges that don't blow up there should exist a 
margin for more powerful and/or lighter self-destructing version.

The laser cartridge question is not my largest obstacle. The regular CLC has 
more than enough power to be a viable weapon for civilian/light military use 
especially considering the price tag of the alternative (NukeDets cost 1+MCr 
and a missile armed ship can easily carry three times its own cost in 
missiles). The big problem is explaining why so few beams from a NukeDet 
seems to hit the target. At 15000 km the target can only evade 0.5m/G so the 
number of hits should be more or less equal to the number of rods/focal 
arrays pointed at the target. If we assume that all the lasers fired hits we 
get the following TL13 500 kg warheads (regular CLC).

#CLC     Energy  MCS stats
16     x  40 Mj  13:14
8     x  80 Mj  14:13
4     x 160 Mj  15:12

There are some reasons (e.g. the 1D6 Hits rule from TNE/T4) to believe that 
NukeDets aren't this accurate. As they don't require a conventional beam 
pointer (whatever it is that beam pointers do) it could be argued that they 
compensate by spreading the shots over a larger area (shotgun style). 
Another source of inaccuracy could be the detonation of the nuke itself.

If a ChemDet used a regular beam pointer none of the above would apply and a 
reasonable assumption would be that all the pulses would hit. That's nice 
but unfortunately a 15'000 km beam pointer weights slightly less than 1000 
kg (mixing FFS1/2 at TL13, 50'000 km = 1333 kg, 30.000 km = 1000 kg, 5000 km 
= 948 kg, 3000 km = 500 kg). This is clearly too much for a missile and 
Bruce Macintosh argued in a off-list email that ChemDets should be able to 
use a lightweight beam pointer since NukeDets get away with something like 
that. The question then becomes how this affects the performance of the 
ChemDet.

I am leaning towards postulating a 100 kg beam pointer that causes 5/6ths of 
the laser pulses to miss when fired at "a typical target" from 15'000 km. 
This is reduced to 2/3rds due to the ChemDets shorter detonation range. With 
these assumptions we get the following TL13 500 kg (400+100kg) warheads.

Nr/CLSs  Energy  MCS stats
12     x  45 Mj  13:11
6     x  90 Mj  14:10
3     x 180 Mj  15:9


This is slightly better than the MCS ChemDet warhead (which is a handwave 
based on a somewhat legal design). There exist enough handwave room here to 
tweak things to anybodies liking. The draft I'm working on adds a factor 2 
by going to self-destructive cartridges at TL13 (4 Mj/kg) while a TL16 
self-destructive cartridge (5 Mj/kg) adds an additional factor of 2 compared 
with its TL13 cousin (this includes the "laser efficiency modifier"). Of 
course none of this is set in stone.

An aside - I tried rating the warheads for TNE but they sucked badly due to 
their low penetration ratings (I rated the 40Mj warhead as 1D6 hits at 
1/4-16).


>>Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a 
>>lot.
>>TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing
>>Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical 
>>Lasing
>>Cartridge? Double this?
>
>Theoretically possible, yes.  Practically?  I don't know.  The mass of
>a cartridge is more than just the mass of chemical compounds contained
>within it, and converting chemical energy to laser energy is usually
>far from 100% efficient.  2 MJ/kg is very good, as far as I can see.
>
>- Tim


I'm thinking more the other practical angle. If the self-destructing 
cartridge were not noticeably better than the regular cartridge we would all 
be designing reusable (why blow up a expensive missile) laser missiles with 
10-50 cartridges with a few 45'000 km range High RoF focal arrays. The best 
part is that PD fire wouldn't stand a chance at these ranges while the 
missile would still hit most targets with every shot. Hey, this almost 
sounds like a good idea. : )

Such a missile would be a bit larger that a regular missile to fit more 
cartridges, a beam pointer and extra fuel but everything should fit into 7 
to 14 m3 or so. It would be like sort of like a laser armed remote 
controlled fighters. Make them 10 dt, pack a few more weapons and some 
thruster plates for cruising and we got a Zho robotic fighter. :)


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.181756.-125169.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

John

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 20:54:48 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> >
> I've got a Microsoft trackball that helped the arm strain go 
> away (seems I get tense using a regular mouse).

Trackball won't work, nor one of those pads you move a finger on - "No
dexterity!"
My stats are 211885 .....

> That, and I use IBM ViaVoice to type a lot.  

I barely have a voice now, and it's difficult to understand, and
constantly changing.

ObTrav:
You streamlined you ships computer to access by voice command. 
You've been in a nasty bar-fight.
Your face is all swollen from the bar stool that fractured your jaw.
Sure, medical patched you up ok, but your speech is slurred by both your
wounds and Scout brew.
The ship won't open the hatch, now what?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F115LJ0HYnmTvdeLhie00006b47@hotmail.com>

Anthony Jackson wtote
>Patrik Holmstrm writes:
>>To the best of my knowledge the effectiveness of Meson guns have >>varied 
>>rather dramatically between editions but I have to agree that >>they are 
>>only  marginally effective in space combat under the >>FFS2/MCS combo
>
>Specifically, there's not much point to range beyond short, due to the 
> >evasion effects.  Meson guns have a bunch of interesting tactical uses 
> >because you can hide behind a planet or deep in a gas giant and use a 
> >forward observer in a fighter (yeah, that's not discussed in MCS).

It's not really that bad (though nearly). For example any 200 dt Trader (or 
other low acceleration ship) or a Tigress class ship will be hit by every 
shot fired by a (lightspeed) weapon at less than 10 hexes. The exact 
distance when this happends depends on acceleration, displacement and hull 
configuration but is seldom less than 5 hexes except for missiles and 
fighters. Hit probablities goes downhill pretty fast after this distance but 
medium range should be doable for many targets (less so for meson guns). 
AFAIK most editions use some kind of proximity fused Meson gun that removes 
that nasty r^(-6) term.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:34:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:34:18 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <200205010132.FJC00900@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  writes
>My stats are 211885 .....
>
If you don't mind me asking, what happened to you? I have 
that dreaded feeling it was an industrial accident (in my 
youth I used to do abstracts of depositions for industrial 
accidents - don't ask me to eat Heinz Homestyle Gravy)

>ObTrav:
>You streamlined you ships computer to access by voice 
>command. You've been in a nasty bar-fight.
>Your face is all swollen from the bar stool that fractured 
>your jaw. Sure, medical patched you up ok, but your speech 
>is slurred by both your wounds and Scout brew.
>The ship won't open the hatch, now what?
>

IMTU, you pull out the interface cable from your belt pack, 
plug it into the ship's external jack, put the other end into 
the socket in your head, and open the door.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEKACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
>shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

You should be.  My frient Luther Martin has one, and it looks sharp.  His
only complaint is that he doesn't have many places to wear it.  I think he
should just wear it to work, but it's a little too formal for his office's
dress code (he's usually wearing a loud Hawaiian shirt when I see him during
business hours).

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:43:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:43:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
>
>Considering the deal the players made in the first place, a sudden
>attack of ethics would seem to be a bit out of place.  They willingly
>lied and got paid for it.  Seems pretty bizarre that they would care
>that the politician used it for different purposes.
>
>Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
>now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?

As they say in management seminars, it's not so much a problem as an
opportunity.  Having a powerful friend on that world may be the most optimal
outcome, but other options should certainly be considered.  It's not
personal, you know.  It's just business.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:47:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:47:24 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  TML Haiku
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

A great idea
From John Kwon of TML
Haiku of the game

a queasy stomach
deeply humming up your spine 
g-carrier please land

a queasy stomach
the engineer stopped work
he is not jump sick

pleasure center burn
"you must remove that old wire"
"doctor my brain hurts"

Silver gauss pistol
Her stalking ex-husband was
Shot so many times

They have left the Hive
To shake hands and see the sights
Making jokes in sign

Please don't feed the Vargr
He is our steward and cook
Give him bad ideas

Assiniboia
Even in daytime it shines
Credo Down again

Esalin border
They are eating kubicho
I can smell it here

No slaves on Mongo
We enjoy our service here
Do not want to leave

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:55:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:55:08 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
Message-ID: <F264yp8ARf3sllNY30k00006c57@hotmail.com>

>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>

<snip of nice design>

>Weaponry
>1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750]
>(LR)
>20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
>(LR)

Personally I would replace these with laser bays since they are smaller 
(5x), lighter (2.5x), use less power (1.2x) and cost less (7.5x) (but you 
probably know all this). Yes, I know you like PAWs. :)

>6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
>15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations for 600
>crew)

Do you have a reason why you choose to carry more fuel than rations? My
designs usually do the opposite and carry one year worth of rations and
6 month of power plant fuel. My reasoning is that the powerplant fuel will 
be refilled after every jump and that military ships will seldom be operated 
at full power and thus the fuel will last longer.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Searching for filk
Message-ID: <200205010158.FJC02926@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

The song Wanderin' Star from Paint Your Wagon is perilously 
close to filk with few modifications. It almost sounds like 
the unofficial song of the Scouts.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:04:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:04:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>
References: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020501120223.A30646@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> >I would expect detonation lasers to appear *much* earlier; TL8 or 9.
> 
> Are you talking about NukeDets or ChemDets here?

Both.


> There are some reasons (e.g. the 1D6 Hits rule from TNE/T4) to
> believe that NukeDets aren't this accurate. As they don't require a
> conventional beam pointer (whatever it is that beam pointers do)

I have no idea :/

Whatever they are, it isn't something that's required for TL7 weapons.
Unless it's just a fancy term for "sensors".


> I'm thinking more the other practical angle. If the self-destructing
> cartridge were not noticeably better than the regular cartridge we
> would all be designing reusable (why blow up a expensive missile)
> laser missiles with 10-50 cartridges with a few 45'000 km range High
> RoF focal arrays.

I thought 2 MJ/kg *was* for a one-shot self-destructing device.  It's
ahead of any currently plausible reusable pulse laser technology by a
long shot.



> The best part is that PD fire wouldn't stand a chance at these
> ranges while the missile would still hit most targets with every
> shot.

What system allows a whole bunch of batteries of starship-mounted
lasers to miss a non-accelerating target at 45 Mm while the starship
itself is an easy hit?

(I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that the missile could
accelerate while still firing to an accuracy of 1 part per million)


> Such a missile would be a bit larger that a regular missile to fit
> more cartridges, a beam pointer and extra fuel but everything should
> fit into 7 to 14 m3 or so. It would be like sort of like a laser
> armed remote controlled fighters. Make them 10 dt, pack a few more
> weapons and some thruster plates for cruising and we got a Zho
> robotic fighter. :)

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that remote missile/drone warfare is the way
to go in general.  I'm guessing the only reason why Traveller has
starship-to-starship direct-fire battles is for the space-opera image.
The rules (at least GURPS Traveller) don't favour it at all.  It would
be nice to have a clear statement of intent.

(For that matter, even person-to-person gunfights don't look too
plausible at GURPS TL9 and above if you examine things closely, but
there are things you can do to tweak things back into shape to retain
the 'feel' of standard Traveller combat.  Not that I bother with
combat anymore for the most part.  By TL9 weapons and above, when it
comes to lethal combat the outcomes are that you're either unscathed
or dead.  Never wounded and valiantly fighting on, or other staples of
space opera.)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:08:17 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.190216.-125169.4.generalturokan@juno.com>

John

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:32:27 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com  writes
> >My stats are 211885 .....
> >
> If you don't mind me asking, what happened to you? 

Amyo Lateral Sclerosis [ALS] Lou Gherig's disease.

I guess you didn't get my announcement from 9-27-01

I'll send ya copy.

Right now it's time to eat and watch JAG.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
Message-ID: <200205010204.FJC03335@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I bet Tod really likes hearing "Men of Harlech". Not that 
it's a French song, nor did they sing it at Rourke's Drift 
outside of the movie.

I am a more than passable baritone, and I have been heard to 
sing the National Anthem, clearly audible at over a mile away 
without benefit of amplification.  Mind you, I was 50 feet in 
the air, and it was a quiet night. They had to wait until I 
was finished before they called me up and told me to knock it 
off.  There *is* a benefit to knowing more than the first 
verse.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:17:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:17:13 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
References: <F264yp8ARf3sllNY30k00006c57@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CCF4FB0.5EA8596F@premier.net>


"Patrik Holmstrm" wrote:
> 
> >From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> 
> <snip of nice design>

From a highly-regarded competitor in FF&S2 warship design, that's high
praise!
> 
> >Weaponry
> >1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750]
> >(LR)
> >20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
> >(LR)
> 
> Personally I would replace these with laser bays since they are smaller
> (5x), lighter (2.5x), use less power (1.2x) and cost less (7.5x) (but you
> probably know all this). Yes, I know you like PAWs. :)

OTOH, if one uses the optional D3 for laser damage in MCS (which I do),
then PAWs (with their D6) are more destructive.  And I _like_
destructive weapons.  _Especially_ destructive PAWs. ;-)

Besides, with a corporate name like AuricTech, do you _really_ think our
designers worry too much about cost (at least when designing warships)?

> 
> >6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
> >15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations for 600
> >crew)
> 
> Do you have a reason why you choose to carry more fuel than rations? My
> designs usually do the opposite and carry one year worth of rations and
> 6 month of power plant fuel. My reasoning is that the powerplant fuel will
> be refilled after every jump and that military ships will seldom be operated
> at full power and thus the fuel will last longer.

Three reasons:

1.  More leeway in the event of fuel loss due to damage.
2.  Longer operating time in the event of a misjump or other calamity
that causes the crew to retreat to the Emergency low berths (as you can
see, the design has enough Emergency low berths to carry the entire crew
at normal manning levels).
3.  The default setting on the Akins spreadsheet for fusion plant fuel
is one year.

Note: these reasons are not necessarily in order of importance. :-)

Thanks again for the feedback.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:21:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:21:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giants (was Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller)
Message-ID: <48.acc729f.2a00aad9@aol.com>

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tim@freeman.little-possums.net writes:
> Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
> pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
> dwarf mass.  Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
> increasing temperatures.  Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
> expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.
>
> It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
> 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
> fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.

Got a reference for this?

If we ever revise GT:First In, one of the things I want to fix is the way
you generate gas giant sizes. I'm not particuarly happy with the kludge
I originally came up with - for one thing, you can't really generate super-
Jovians with it.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>tim@freeman.little-possums.net writes:
<BR>&gt; Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
<BR>&gt; pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
<BR>&gt; dwarf mass. &nbsp;Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
<BR>&gt; increasing temperatures. &nbsp;Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
<BR>&gt; expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
<BR>&gt; 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
<BR>&gt; fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.
<BR>
<BR>Got a reference for this?
<BR>
<BR>If we ever revise GT:First In, one of the things I want to fix is the way
<BR>you generate gas giant sizes. I'm not particuarly happy with the kludge
<BR>I originally came up with - for one thing, you can't really generate super-
<BR>Jovians with it.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_48.acc729f.2a00aad9_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:45:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:45:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
In-Reply-To: <200205010204.FJC03335@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8F4A4BE.5908C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/30/02 7:04 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I bet Tod really likes hearing "Men of Harlech". Not that
> it's a French song, nor did they sing it at Rourke's Drift
> outside of the movie.
> 

Tod likes all martial music.  It is a sad thing that modern war rids us a
music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that pop
up now and again).  I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
beginning of the battle.  Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
gleaming in the sun, and martial music.  It stirs the blood.

Modern war is a dirty, no nonsense business with no room for ruffles and
flourishes, banners snapping in the wind, sabres gleaming and 'gloire'.

From Louis Simpson

"At Malplaquet and Waterloo
They were polite and proud,
They primed their guns with billet-doux
And, as they fired, bowed.
At Appomatox too, it seems
Some things were understood.

O the ash and the oak and the willow tree
And the green grows the grass on the infantry; "

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
Message-ID: <a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462@aol.com>

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> Tod likes all martial music.  It is a sad thing that modern war rids us a
> music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that pop
> up now and again).  I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
> beginning of the battle.  Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
> gleaming in the sun, and martial music.  It stirs the blood.

I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been writing,
involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some rather
unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there have
been a couple sequels.

The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in the
soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior speakers.
Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as they
wade into combat.

The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon"
at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-).

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Tod likes all martial music. &nbsp;It is a sad thing that modern war rids us a
<BR>&gt; music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that pop
<BR>&gt; up now and again). &nbsp;I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
<BR>&gt; beginning of the battle. &nbsp;Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
<BR>&gt; gleaming in the sun, and martial music. &nbsp;It stirs the blood.
<BR>
<BR>I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been writing,
<BR>involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some rather
<BR>unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there have
<BR>been a couple sequels.
<BR>
<BR>The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in the
<BR>soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior speakers.
<BR>Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as they
<BR>wade into combat.
<BR>
<BR>The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon"
<BR>at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-).
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
References: <a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CCF5D6A.23227877@premier.net>


JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> 
**quote**

I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been
writing, 
involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some
rather 
unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there
have 
been a couple sequels. 

The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in
the 
soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior
speakers. 
Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as
they 
wade into combat. 

The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" 
at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-). 

**end quote**

Of course, had they played "MacArthur Park" (the Richard Harris
version), there would have been mass surrenders by the hostiles [*],
followed immediately by mass arrests of US Special Forces personnel for
war crimes.... ;-)

[*] Either that, or the aliens' braincases would have exploded.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F259XPec8O1AAwl6zO600006d73@hotmail.com>

Timothy Little wrote:
>Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> > There are some reasons (e.g. the 1D6 Hits rule from TNE/T4) to
> > believe that NukeDets aren't this accurate. As they don't require a
> > conventional beam pointer (whatever it is that beam pointers do)
>
>I have no idea :/
>
>Whatever they are, it isn't something that's required for TL7 weapons.
>Unless it's just a fancy term for "sensors".

Well, FFS1 says that they "represent the integral fire control capabilities 
of the weapon". They are required for "all heavy (non-small arm) laser, 
particle accelerators and meson guns". A external sensor is still required 
to the best of my knowledge.

>I thought 2 MJ/kg *was* for a one-shot self-destructing device.  It's
>ahead of any currently plausible reusable pulse laser technology by a
>long shot.

That depends on you defination of self-destructing. The regular CLC is used 
much like a rifle cartridge and the reaction is contained in the cartridge 
itself. I'm thinking more of something that explodes spectacularly.

> > The best part is that PD fire wouldn't stand a chance at these
> > ranges while the missile would still hit most targets with every
> > shot.
>
>What system allows a whole bunch of batteries of starship-mounted
>lasers to miss a non-accelerating target at 45 Mm while the starship
>itself is an easy hit?

Assuming that the missile can manuever:
It's bigger and accelerates less? :)

Assuming that it can't:
It won't matter since an entire fleet will be waiting for the target ship to 
stop manuevering in preparation of PD fire. The fleet will then fire and hit 
with every weapon it has disposable.

>(I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that the missile could
>accelerate while still firing to an accuracy of 1 part per million)

The rules seem to disagree but I grant you that it would be something of an 
engineering problem. I think Bruce Macintosh talked about laser accuracy a 
couple of times but I can't remember if he mentioned something about 
acceleration effects.

The fire control would have knowledge of future acceleration and could 
syncronize fire with a straight burn. During such a burn the angle to the 
target wouldn't change much and you have to do that kind of burn rather 
often if you want optimal evasion. Another possible tactic would be to have 
the missile stop accelerating for 0.1 seconds (or less) while shooting. Not 
evading is after all a valid evasion tactic (unless you do it all the time 
or do it predictably).

<snip>

I agree with all the rest. I have designed fighter drones and automatic PD 
systems for battledress for this kind of war. Fighting a high tech war 
without support and gadgets must (most of the time) be like fighting modern 
day tanks with sticks and stones. On the largest flat surface you can 
imagine. In the dark. And you can't hide.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:26:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:26:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giants (was Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller)
In-Reply-To: <48.acc729f.2a00aad9@aol.com>
References: <48.acc729f.2a00aad9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020501132547.A30741@freeman.little-possums.net>

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
[I wrote:]
> > It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
> > 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
> > fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.
> 
> Got a reference for this?

Just my lecture notes at the moment, though I'm sure I can find a
suitable reference in the Uni library.  I've been meaning to go back
there for another study session soon anyway :)

Of course, these models are entirely theoretical: no diameters of real
superjovians have yet been measured to my knowledge.  A quick abstract
search confirms this as of March 2002.  I can find only two measured
diameters for verified extrasolar planets (via transit photometry),
both of sub-jovian mass.

Interestingly, one of the two appears somewhat larger than Jupiter --
1.35 times the diameter, but only about 70% of Jupiter's mass.  This
is almost certainly because it is *very* hot, orbiting just 0.045 AU
from a G0V star, and also because it has a relatively low mass so that
the pressure increase due to temperature is more able to overcome
gravity.

I would not be at all surprised if this is close to the largest planet
that will ever be found.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:33:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:33:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <200205010332.FJG00772@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
Message-ID: <F1790dwzd44lkw8Hbql00006d85@hotmail.com>

Please forgive the somewhat lighthearted tone of the message. It must be the 
hour.

>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>"Patrik Holmstrm" wrote:
> >
> > >From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> >
> > <snip of nice design>
>
>From a highly-regarded competitor in FF&S2 warship design, that's high
>praise!

Maybe we should start the "Club for Internal Admiration"? Hmm, I think I 
recognise those initials. :)

> > >Weaponry
> > >1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 
>[1,200/750-750-750-750]
> > >(LR)
> > >20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
> > >(LR)
> >
>>Personally I would replace these with laser bays since they are >>smaller 
>>(5x), lighter (2.5x), use less power (1.2x) and cost less (7.5x) (but you 
>>probably know all this). Yes, I know you like PAWs. :)
>
>OTOH, if one uses the optional D3 for laser damage in MCS (which I do),
>then PAWs (with their D6) are more destructive.  And I _like_
>destructive weapons.  _Especially_ destructive PAWs. ;-)

Now that you remaind I remember that I also use that rule. Dang! Well we 
will then have to roughly double the size of the mount. That will cut rather 
severly into our advantages but at least we now have a average damage that 
is 0.5 higher (16+2 vs 14+3.5) than the PAW mount though the laser mount 
still lack the doubled crew casulties.

Wait now I got it! The laser mount has superior traverse! Muhhha! I wan't to 
see your 44 m PAW triumf that! :)

>>>6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
>>>15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations
> >
>>Do you have a reason why you choose to carry more fuel than rations? >>My 
>>designs usually do the opposite and carry one year worth of >>rations and 
>>6 month of power plant fuel. My reasoning is that the >>powerplant fuel 
>>will  be refilled after every jump and that military >>ships will seldom 
>>be operated at full power and thus the fuel will >>last longer.
>
>Three reasons:
>
>1.  More leeway in the event of fuel loss due to damage.
>2.  Longer operating time in the event of a misjump or other calamity
>that causes the crew to retreat to the Emergency low berths (as you can
>see, the design has enough Emergency low berths to carry the entire >crew 
>at normal manning levels).
>3.  The default setting on the Akins spreadsheet for fusion plant fuel
>is one year.
>
>Note: these reasons are not necessarily in order of importance. :-)
>
Pretty good reasons all of them.

Now it's time to crawl into my cave since the daystar is rapidly approching.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 23:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 22:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F259XPec8O1AAwl6zO600006d73@hotmail.com>
References: <F259XPec8O1AAwl6zO600006d73@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020501152126.A30999@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> Well, FFS1 says that they "represent the integral fire control capabilities 
> of the weapon". They are required for "all heavy (non-small arm) laser, 
> particle accelerators and meson guns". A external sensor is still required 
> to the best of my knowledge.

OK.  So it isn't something required for any TL7 weapon, which is why I
couldn't find anything about it :)


> That depends on you defination of self-destructing. The regular CLC
> is used much like a rifle cartridge and the reaction is contained in
> the cartridge itself. I'm thinking more of something that explodes
> spectacularly.

I don't think it would make much difference.  If it's big enough to
self-destruct with 2 MJ/kg, you're not going to get a lot more power
out of anything chemical once you add in all the other apparatus
necessary to get an ultra-high power extremely tightly collimated
laser beam out of it.


> It won't matter since an entire fleet will be waiting for the target
> ship to stop manuevering in preparation of PD fire. The fleet will
> then fire and hit with every weapon it has disposable.

If the entire enemy fleet stops maneuvering to fire at one target
ship, they are themselves open to fire from the opposing fleet :)

Besides which, a very large ship can carry stabilisation gear that a
little missile can't.


> >(I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that the missile could
> >accelerate while still firing to an accuracy of 1 part per million)
> 
> The rules seem to disagree but I grant you that it would be something of an 
> engineering problem. I think Bruce Macintosh talked about laser accuracy a 
> couple of times but I can't remember if he mentioned something about 
> acceleration effects.

"Jerk."  That's not an insult, it's a technical term :)

Specifically, the term for rate of change of acceleration.  An evading
vehicle must change acceleration direction rapidly, which means that
stabilisation has to converge on the order of tens of milliseconds for
a missile to use its acceleration ability to best advantage, against a
jerk of thousands of gees per second.


> Another possible tactic would be to have the missile stop
> accelerating for 0.1 seconds (or less) while shooting.

0.1 seconds is very short time for even short-mode vibrations to damp
out from the jerk of not accelerating anymore.  Mind you, I don't
doubt that TL12 weapon mounts and fire control could do so, but us
poor mortals certainly couldn't.

Another thought: A high-RoF missile probably won't scratch the paint
of most ships -- after all, there's a limit to how much energy you can
deliver over a combat round, and breaking it up into lots of little
pieces just means you have more chances to hit for no damage.  One
ship's laser will vaporise a missile, since there just isn't enough
volume for anywhere near the same thickness of armour that a starship
can mount.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 03:21:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:21:45 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Red Army Chorus
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHEECMCEAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAIECMCKAA.redroach@pobox.com>



I personally think that the US National anthem sucks!
1. The ONLY national anthem that talks about war.
2. A notes that only professional singers can hit on key.
3. Only the communists know the words past the first verse!

Myself and a lot of Americans prefer "America the Beautiful".
They even voted on this in Congress a few years back.

(Rant Over)

MY TURN:
Too bad I am obviously an American who prefers and values the "Star Spangled
Banner."
Maybe we should take Franklin's idea and change our national bird to the
turkey.

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:10:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:10:39 -0600
Subject: [TML] Comm check
Message-ID: <3CA7A57F.EEFD8C@mail.cswnet.com>

ping ping ping ping ping

Here we go again.

ISS Agena at the outer beacon.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:15:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:15:40 -0600
Subject: [TML] Roseberry's HG2 used space craft lot
Message-ID: <3CA7A6AC.CCAACC8B@mail.cswnet.com>

Come on down and try out some of these beauties...
[all designs use HG2. Costs are standard, no arch fees, no discounts]
[TL per Ct]


Upshore class slow shuttle
Y2-0201111-030000-00001-0  TL10-12  95dt Crew=2
            1         2    Mcr26.325 standard 
            1         2
Fuel=4.25dt EP=.95 Agile=1 Cargo=60 Passenger couches=10
Bridge included.


Terp class armored space tanker
QK-0201111-330000-00001-0   TL10-11  40dt Crew=2
            1         2    Mcr16.33 Standard
            1         2
Fuel=1 EP=.4 Agile=1 Bridge included. Tanker Fuel=20dt


Gaku N'aGak class slow modular cutter
Uses same 30dt standard modules as the regular cutter.

Gaku N'aGak class, frame section only
YY2-0203411-030000-00001-0   TL10-12  10dt
             1         2    Mcr9.05 standard  Crew=2
             1         2
Fuel=1.8 EP=.4 Agile=3

Gaku N'aGak class, frame and module section
YY2-0201111-030000-00001-0  TL10-12  40dt
             1         2    Mcr9.05 plus cost of module
             1         2    Crew=2
Fuel=1.8 EP=.4 Agile=1

Modules shown in Adventure 7.


"Cyberspeed" orbital racing speeder
QF-0606701-000000-00000-0 TL9-12  4.5dt
no weapons                Mcr5.885 std Crew=1
Fuel=1 EP=.315 Agile=6 no bridge. Mod1 computer.


Standard Speeder using HG2
VF-0106601-000000-00000-0 TL9-12  6dt
no weapons               Mcr6.52 std 
Fuel=1.08 Ep=.36 Agile=6 Crew=1 Passenger couch=1
no bridge. Mod1 computer. Cargo=.82


Plop designs historical series:  The Jetsons Speeder
NVF-0103311-000000-00000-0 TL9-12  9dt
no weapons                Mcr6.718 std Crew=1
Fuel=1 EP=.27 Agile=3 Cargo=0
1 pilot couch, 4 passenger couches.
1 jump capsule launcher, with 3 capsule ready storage.
4 jump capsules available.
Unfortunately, the designers at the Plop works haven't figured
out how to stick 9dt speeder into a briefcase. Studies continue.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:20:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:20:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Comm check
Message-ID: <200204010020.DBV00016@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
>
>ping ping ping ping ping
>
>Here we go again.
>
>ISS Agena at the outer beacon.
>

Greetings Agena!  This is Bob Marks of Bob's Duty Free Goods 
and Taxi Service!  Welcome! Welcome!  We have specials on 
clothing, liquor, and specialty foods!  Don't buy the tourist 
stuff they sell in the starport!  Nobody pays retail when 
they can buy from Bob!

We even have free coupons for a 10 percent discount on 
refined fuel!  If you have passengers on board, we can take 
them direct to their destination dirtside for only 10cr!

Act now, and we'll throw in a free hot lunch of charbroiled 
steak!

We can match vectors and be alongside in 10 minutes!  How 
about it?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:41:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jason Barnabas)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 16:41:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Real Life? Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <h2bcaugf7hmmg8npll01nedlk3cv051sqi@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1d915$efff2160$2c617043@jbathome>

JR Holmes wrote:
<snippers>
>I'm jealous.  Of course, from San Diego, I would be beyond any distant
>end of any trip you might be considering (in Wisconsin, on Lake
>Michigan).  Ah well, the joys and sorrows of living on the Central
>Coast.

Well JR, I could plan to end up on the bonny shores (I'm assuming 
they are bonny) of Lake Michigan via the Saint Lawrence Seaway.  
So, no it is not entirely out of the question.  After all if I'm 
going to sail all the way from San Diego harbor to the Chesapeake 
Bay, what's a few thousand more miles.

I believe that both Green Bay and Milwaukee are port cities.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:40:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:40:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Real Life? Intrudes
Message-ID: <200204010040.DBV00674@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Jason Barnabas" says
>
>Well JR, I could plan to end up on the bonny shores (I'm 
>assuming they are bonny) of Lake Michigan via the Saint 
>Lawrence Seaway.  
>So, no it is not entirely out of the question.  After all if 
>I'm going to sail all the way from San Diego harbor to the 
>Chesapeake Bay, what's a few thousand more miles.
>

There are a fair number of us near the Chesapeake Bay.
Yeah, as long as you're going from Regina to Sol, what's 
a few more jumps here or there.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:43:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:43:07 EST
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
Message-ID: <16b.b4fbf3e.29d9071b@aol.com>

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"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> Just finished going through what will be a rather long
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units
> in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may
> differ.
> <snip>

   I'd like a copy as well :)
  -Ken-
 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>
<BR>"John T. Kwon" wrote:
<BR>
<BR>&gt; Just finished going through what will be a rather long
<BR>&gt; document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units
<BR>&gt; in Traveller. &nbsp;Just a guide, mind you. &nbsp;Your mileage may
<BR>&gt; differ.
<BR>&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I'd like a copy as well :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR> 
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:49:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:49:20 EST
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
Message-ID: <118.f28a399.29d90890@aol.com>

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> Generating a large number of systems shows a possible anomaly in the rules
> for life generation. Approximately ten times the number of complex animals
> evolved in Earthlike conditions are evolved on icy rockballs with
> subsurface oceans. This is also true for sentinent lifeforms.

Probably because there are a lot more icy rockballs than there are
Earthlike worlds.

If you come up with an adjustment that seems right to you, let me 
know - I'm told a reprint or second edition of First In is likely at some
point, so I'm assembling notes for changes to details of the world
generation sequence.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Generating a large number of systems shows a possible anomaly in the rules
<BR>&gt; for life generation. Approximately ten times the number of complex animals
<BR>&gt; evolved in Earthlike conditions are evolved on icy rockballs with
<BR>&gt; subsurface oceans. This is also true for sentinent lifeforms.
<BR>
<BR>Probably because there are a lot more icy rockballs than there are
<BR>Earthlike worlds.
<BR>
<BR>If you come up with an adjustment that seems right to you, let me 
<BR>know - I'm told a reprint or second edition of First In is likely at some
<BR>point, so I'm assembling notes for changes to details of the world
<BR>generation sequence.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:13:22 EST
Subject: [TML] Test
Message-ID: <c1.1e6bbd30.29d90e32@aol.com>

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   Hey-Mailerdemon bounced my last message. Just testing :)
  -Ken-

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hey-Mailerdemon bounced my last message. Just testing :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:29:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:29:47 -0600
Subject: [TML] Real Life? Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <000501c1d915$efff2160$2c617043@jbathome>
References: <h2bcaugf7hmmg8npll01nedlk3cv051sqi@4ax.com> <000501c1d915$efff2160$2c617043@jbathome>
Message-ID: <5scfau8hccl722d5bgm5a6obo8hfh8eppg@4ax.com>

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 16:41:18 -0800, "Jason Barnabas"
<cyber0@prodigy.net> wrote:

>JR Holmes wrote:
><snippers>
>>I'm jealous.  Of course, from San Diego, I would be beyond any distant
>>end of any trip you might be considering (in Wisconsin, on Lake
>>Michigan).  Ah well, the joys and sorrows of living on the Central
>>Coast.
>
>Well JR, I could plan to end up on the bonny shores (I'm assuming=20
>they are bonny) of Lake Michigan via the Saint Lawrence Seaway. =20
>So, no it is not entirely out of the question.  After all if I'm=20
>going to sail all the way from San Diego harbor to the Chesapeake=20
>Bay, what's a few thousand more miles.
>
>I believe that both Green Bay and Milwaukee are port cities.

Green Bay and Milwaukee (and Duluth on Lake Superior) are deep water
ports suitable for ocean-going ships.  There are a couple of dozen
other harbors which are easily suitable for a 39 footer.  The sailing
season here is only about 6 months long, so it would become a matter
of timing.  The Chesapeake is a fair bit more temperate than the Great
Lakes can be (which isn't saying much if you know about the bad
reputation that the Chesapeake has).

As a minor benefit, and reaching back to my collegiate sailing days, I
understand that the slime which builds up on your hull while passing
through Lake Erie is closely akin to the "Go-Fast" coating that ocean
racers spend hundreds applying to their hulls.

Unfortunately, this is the last year that the annual GenCon gaming
convention will be taking place in Milwaukee (its moving to
Indianapolis), because it takes place in early August and coincided
with the Wisconsin State Fair and was close to a number of very large
summer festivals.  That would have been a good time goal to shoot for.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:37:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 17:37:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Trip time question
Message-ID: <200204010137.RAA27635@molly.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
>> Actually B is how many *hours* of burn endurance were used. Sorry I should 
>> have been more specific
>
>In that case, the formula as written is incorrect.  The delta-V should
>be doubled.  (22 mi/s per g-hour, or 35 km/s)

The real problem is that TS is using a weird definition -- what is written
as 'delta-V' is really 'average trip speed'.  If you look around, you 
discover that it assumes both acceleration and deceleration, and should
be doubled for a one-way trip.

Personally, I think that's confusing, but it is the way the rules work.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:55:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] just looking around
Message-ID: <200204010155.DBX01369@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Was over at Walt Smith's page, and he had a big essay on 
piracy in his TU, which may or may not appeal to those who 
have been involved in rolling around on the topic.

However, he made a few interesting points.  Steal a small 
craft, and even if you only get a fraction of its value, 
you've made a lot of money.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:10:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 21:10:54 EST
Subject: [TML] Navy stuff
Message-ID: <16.1cbec3b9.29d91bae@aol.com>

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   Those interested in some other notes about Spaceships, navy structure, 
assignments and operations, damage control, and the like might want to check 
out Mark Chase's Mekton Z  page at 
http://www.meta-earth.com/metal/metalrpg.html#ch2
   The information is interesting, and some quite  _easily_ liftable for a 
Traveller campaign :)
  -Ken-

   "One of his tricks of persuasion was to cut open the breast of a victim, 
pull out the still beating heart, and gnaw upon it with great relish while 
the next menu object looked on in stark terror. No wonder few withheld 
information from L'Olonais"

   Blackbeard
   AH Games

  

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Those interested in some other notes about Spaceships, navy structure, assignments and operations, damage control, and the like might want to check out Mark Chase's Mekton Z &nbsp;page at 
<BR>http://www.meta-earth.com/metal/metalrpg.html#ch2
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;The information is interesting, and some quite &nbsp;_easily_ liftable for a Traveller campaign :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;"One of his tricks of persuasion was to cut open the breast of a victim, pull out the still beating heart, and gnaw upon it with great relish while the next menu object looked on in stark terror. No wonder few withheld information from L'Olonais"
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Blackbeard
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;AH Games
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:17:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:17:15 -0600
Subject: [TML] Testing
References: <B8CB9A45.3371C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CA7C32B.74BC120@premier.net>

Hmmm.  Did you turn off StripMIME?  A couple of posts came through in
the past couple of hours that were obviously not plain text.

Not a major issue for me, but it may well be an issue for digest
subscribers.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:40:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:40:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Encumbrance
In-Reply-To: <200203311634.DBF00567@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020331183941.009fc790@mindspring.com>

At 11:34 AM 3/31/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Haven't yet seen rules I like for encumbrance.  PCCS is very
>accurate, but takes too long to calculate.
>
>A good page
>
>http://call.army.mil/products/newsltrs/01-15/01-15ch11.htm

Actually, the entire site is good for those playing military/mercenary 
campaigns.

http://call.army.mil/products/newsltrs/01-15/01-15toc.htm


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
  Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:23:02 +0930 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Presidio class armoured cruiser
In-Reply-To: <3CA5611B.8EEF4422@premier.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204011221290.12785-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Antony;

 All I can say is that your designs have been copied and will be modified
for MTU. Thank you for the work. Great things to "liberate".

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 04:19:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:19:39 -0600
Subject: [TML] CT Ship Design mailing list
References: <OF14E5A3E8.5F7821AA-ON85256B8D.00573844@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CA7DFDB.C2CABA21@pobox.com>

William Lane wrote:

> about 7 months ago i entered the "Cortez" into Hot Rod Race. the Cortez was
> a modified Scout. well before the results where posted my company laid a
> bunch of people off including me.
>
> I was wondering if the person who ran the hot rod race was a member of the
> TML and could let me know what Standing The Cortez came in. or if someone
> could forward this to him it would be appreciated.
>

The Hot Rod race took place on the CT-Starships list.  The race results were:
                 Hellbent 20 pts
                 Abrr Chatlqaf 19
                 Princess Lucky 14
                 Cortez 12
                 Renown 10

Also, another quote re the Cortez...

--- In ct-starships@y..., "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@r...> wrote:
> <snip>
> My personal favourite design has to be Cortez, any ship that can stick
> closely to the rules and still manage Jump-4, 5G  with 2 tons reserved for
> beer has to be a good design :)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 04:24:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:24:37 EST
Subject: [TML] Splat gun
Message-ID: <197.49c174e.29d93b05@aol.com>

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   Hi gang,
   After seeing stats for one of these things someplace on-line, I got to 
wondering just what exactly _IS_ an Aslan Splatgun anyhow?
  -Ken-

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi gang,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;After seeing stats for one of these things someplace on-line, I got to wondering just what exactly _IS_ an Aslan Splatgun anyhow?
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 03:54:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:24:22 +0930 (CST)
Subject: [TML] boarding bots
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331144144.02480060@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204011313420.12785-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi laning:

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, laning wrote:

> I remember reading the article at the time.  Like most non-GDW magazine
> articles that proposed additional rules for Traveller, it added something
> far more powerful than would balance with the existing game rules.

 I think it was #64. Carried a "URP". I made a few servant bots. One
cyborg PC and then sort of lost interest. As it became a way of making
ultra powerful things that either  upset the game in favour of the team or
the opposition. So I ended up doing a sort of "Dune" trip about robots.
Forget the name of the provision against such things. <Butler?>

> Of course, I'm no happier than anyone else with the GDW robot rules in Book
> 8--or the computer rules, for that matter.  But, I shouldn't criticize,
> because I'm hardly qualified to write something better.  I don't think
> Moore's Law is infinitely recursive and in fact I think it's likely to
> reach its limit while most of us are still alive, so that doesn't jibe at
> all with the hardware rules.  Software rules are more problematical to
> devise.  Locomotion and manipulators _might_ be amenable to easy
> calculation for engineers experienced in such areas but that's only for
> current-day tech, so tech levels 8 through 15 or higher are anybody's
> guess.  The power requirements and power production do seem to have been
> second-guessed very intelligently and accurately by people on this list who
> sounded qualified.

 I was not familiar with computers or robotics at that time. So I let the
entire concept wither on the vine IMTU. But as I ressurect my game. I now
need to adress the matter. Book 8 seems to be in some areas weak and  in
other complex. I need more understanding and then create for MTU.

> BTW, Lord Ronin, if you ever phoned for tech support during the last days
> of Q-Link before it was ignominiously "sunsetted" then we may have spoken
> on the phone.  Although I never had my own account, it was still one of my
> duties to provide tech support.  At least, unlike most of the other AOL
> tech reps who were tasked with the same thing, I'd actually owned a couple
> of Commodore computers in my time.  The only computers on the tech reps'
> desks were IBM-compatibles, with a healthy scattering of Macs, also.  (Not
> 6502's, I said Macs.)  I am pleased to report I had an outstanding success
> rate on my Q-Link calls.  Which is a good thing, because there was many an
> evening when I was the _only_ tech available to answer Q-Link calls.  I had
> wanted to join one of the developers to be online for chat during the final
> moments, but I was busy working instead.

 no i doubt it was you I talked to, as you still have two ears. The one I
talked to got a very falming earful of what I thought about the rape,
torture and murder of Q-Link. Not to mention the stated deltetion of the
C= files from the HD area. BTW: want a copy of the non existent <if you
belive Steve C.> 2400 front end loader? I was part of the Q-Link
preservation group. C=64 Dungeon Arcade was may area. have it all the F-3
comments and still have the 90 catalogue. Now if I can find all the inn
ladies from the geopaint area for my BBS. But I won't delve into that
topic on llist. Oh on the FWIW part laning, I only use Commodore still.
Online with one at this moment at 14.4 going to 56k this upcoming month.
See me off list if you would like to know more about the current world of
Commodore and the new Commodore system comming out shortly.

 OBTRAV: There have been alot of PC platforms in the past. IMTU they are
all C= OS based. As that is what I belive in as the best OS for the user.
Personal opinion of course. IYTU what do you use as a computer standard?
is there a platform OS standard on all computer using tech level worlds?
Does the 3I enforce a compliance of a specific computer OS platform? Or
are there multiple and semi if at all compatible OS units in your game
world?

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 06:01:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:01:28 +0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Kiev class light fleet carriers
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331105548.024beec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEGFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of laning
Sent: Sunday, 31 March 2002 11:59 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Kiev class light fleet carriers


Antony, why would Terra build a jump-1 warship?  It's more than one parsec
to Terra's nearest neighbor, IIRC.

And my prejudice against fighters/carriers is stronger for this class than
it was for the Consort.  I could see fighters used in commerce raiding as
well as commerce escort, but haven't found a use beyond that.

--Laning

The Kiev is capable of 1x jump-3 or upto 3x jump-1 or any combination. The
other thing to remember is that fighter carriers have been canon since CT.
The Kievs were also designed around the time of the First Solomani Rim war
so have been left behind somewhat by later developments.

Also in Traveller rulesystems (GT excepted, I don't know about T4, not
having that) A ships weapons can only engage one target per round regardless
of rate of fire (rate of fire just makes that target easier to hit). This
actually increases the survivability of fighters. Most of my fighter designs
still carry Nuclear Detonation missiles for a stand off capability.

From play testing I also found that in TNE at least fighters used
defensively are quite successful. Effectively giving a vessel like the Kiev
forty more laser turrets and missile launchers. Commerce raiders also tend
to be of cruiser class or less (the Azhanti High Lightnings were commonly
used for this) Against this type of vessel fighters are a threat. If not why
do the Lightnings for example carry so many light starfighters?

Anyway that is some of my thinking behind the class.

Antony



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 06:01:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:01:29 +0800
Subject: [TML] Presidio class armoured cruiser
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204011221290.12785-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEGFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Lord Ronin from
Q-Link
Sent: Monday, 1 April 2002 10:53 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Presidio class armoured cruiser


Hoi Antony;

 All I can say is that your designs have been copied and will be modified
for MTU. Thank you for the work. Great things to "liberate".

BCNU


Why thank you my lord,
Praise from the praiseworthy is praise indeed.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 06:01:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:01:30 +0800
Subject: [TML] GT Ship Conversion from TML Post
In-Reply-To: <3CA72B79.1969.B92D3@localhost>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOEGFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of shadowcat
Sent: Monday, 1 April 2002 5:30 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] GT Ship Conversion from TML Post


I give you the Breton class light cruiser, I unfortunately have forgotten
who
posted the orginal, and my apologies for the omission of the persons name

That's Ok, the original FFS1 version was posted by me. Nice conversion.
Incidently Fremantle, named after the city in Western Australia not
Freemantle.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 04:24:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:24:18 -0600
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
References: <200203310432.DAH01551@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV57xlgF6ygG1pzOKJ000112d6@hotmail.com>

I'd be grateful for a copy.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"

> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages
> so far.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 07:18:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 02:18:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  The Traveller Movie (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <20020328202400.35905.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CA105D7.EB960833@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020328175158.02bd1c70@pop.wizard.net>

At 12:24 PM 3/28/02 -0800, someone wrote:
>How about this for a plot.  Somehow Norris gets wind
>of the assassination plot and heads to warn the
>Emperor.  Unfortunately misjump occurs and the ships
>can't continue.  The only option is the Free Trader
>Beowulf.

Good stuff.  I like it.   :->

Minor suspension of disbelief problem though.  Norris' ship misjumps while 
the rest of his escort fleet doesn't.  Somehow, his personal ship isn't 
able to continue on either.  I guess the misjump inflicted damage to the 
jump drive or something.  But for Norris to choose a free trader as his 
best alternative seems implausible.  Unless the Beowulf is the _only_ ship 
in system.  And even then, he'd transfer to a faster vessel at the first 
system that had one, and there'd be plenty of chances for that.  I guess 
the Beowulf would have to be not a free trader, but something with jump-5, 
and preferably a fast maneuever drive too, to reduce days spent maneuvering 
between jumps.  This suggests a very nonstandard ship or nonstandard 
history for what was once a standard ship.  I think that's good 
though.  Make the ship a separate character in the hearts of the 
audience.  Like the 'Millenium Falcon' only much more so.


>   Norris joins the crew and they head accross
>the rift because it is a speedier trip.  Our
>adventurers get to the Real Strephon on the way
>shortly before the news of the assassination reaches
>them.  I think the scene when the Real Emp meets
>Norris and the crew could be cool.

It seems like it takes some serious handwaving to have them bump into the 
real Strephon on the way.  But, yeah, it makes for a good scene and one 
that seems desirable to keep in the script.  It also takes some serious 
handwaving for Norris to get wind of the impending plot when he lives so 
far away from Dulinor and Dulinor's power base, as well as Capital.

But you have a good thing going with taking a high noble and throwing him 
in with the crew.  A major downside of that is it will remind some people 
too much of Princess Leia or Queen Amidala.  Hmm, maybe something involving 
a Zho instead of Norris.  we have to learn through the eyes of the 
merchant's crew that the Zho are not horrible mind rapers after all, and in 
fact are nice folks who like to prevent assassinations.  The Zhodani 
government might have more pragmatic reasons for trying to prevent the 
assassination, too.  They can't know the assassination is scheduled by GDW 
to initiate the break up of the Imperium.  From where they're sitting, it's 
a choice between Dulinor on the throne or Strephon.  And if they can 
arrange for Strephon to owe them big time for saving his bacon, all the better.

Yeah, thinking about it more.  The Zhodani own most of the mind reading 
market, would have a spy network that could pick up wind of Dulinor's plot 
in advance, and then they'd decide to tip off Strephon through people who 
are guaranteed to be loyal to Strephon.  They'd also be aware of the real 
Strephon and his whereabouts.  They transmit their message through their 
usual clandestine channels (diplomatic and spy network within the 
Imperium).  A small party of Zhodani, consisting of the diplomatic courier, 
his military escort, and Zhodani psionic adepts undercover as Imperial 
citizens who are additional security for the diplomatic courier but the 
courier himself is not aware of their true nature.  He thinks they're just 
Imperial citizens headed in the same direction, in a hurry for some 
plausible-sounding reason.  They run afoul of the misjump plot 
device.  They need transport now, and it has to be _fast_.  There's the 
'Beowulf', a 60-year-old merchant, that was bought surplus from the 
Imperial Navy where it was used as a small despatch courier.  It's held 
together by it's talented and devoted crew, who pay factors all over the 
sector to line up courier jobs for them, and thus eke out a living, and get 
to travel the universe.  The Zhodani party _needs_ the 'Beowulf' and 
they're in a hurry.

But, the 'Beowulf' crew are already on a scheduled job, and one that pays, 
and it's going in the opposite direction from where the Zhodani are 
headed.  Sure, the Zhodani can offer virtually unlimited pay to the Beowulf 
as inducement to drop their current courier job in favor of taking the 
Zhodani where they want to go.  But the Beowulf's crew are predisposed to 
disliking and mistrusting the hated Zho's.  Some plot tension and character 
tensions develop.  Some local subplots have to develop also, for the Zho 
and the Impies to struggle through together, and through these actions the 
Impies learn to see the Zho in a new light.  They begin to shed their 
prejudices, but hardly all at once.  Now they're not so sure that they're 
right to be automatically suspicious of the Zhodani.

The fabulous sums dangled by the Zhodani courier tip the scales.  And, 
fortuitously, the local factor (played by Sidney Greenstreet) who the 
'Beowulf' usually does business with, and is their friend and confidante, 
let's them know another ship has arrived in system (one of their 
urgent-delivery competitors) who can be paid to finish the delivery job the 
'Beowulf' is already on.  Still some lingering reservations about Zhodani, 
but they accept the charter and the Zhodani and the 'Beowulf' crew proceed 
together.  Through many jumps, including across the Rift.

The diplomatic courier is actually a very high ranking diplomat who would 
not normally be used merely as a courier, but the significance of this 
mission dictated that he be used partly to lend credibility to his message 
and partly because he is entrusted with a full briefing on the contents of 
his message and his empowered to negotiate directly with Strephon.

Realizing that too much distance/time has been lost because of the misjump, 
the diplomat has to change destination from the planet where the real 
Strephon was sojourning, to meeting Strephon en route as he travels back to 
Capital.  At each port of call, he must contact the local Zhodani consulate 
or spy to pick up the latest news on the precise location reported for the 
real Strephon.  Some minor adventures are associated with meeting these 
local contacts, and the Beowulf crew are required for getting safely 
through these dirtside adventures.  More bonding with the Zhodani.  Their 
reservations and prejudices continue to erode but are not entirely gone 
yet.  Too many centuries of bad history, not to mention the ugly memories 
from the recent FFW.  The crew continues wearing psionic shield devices at 
all times.

The two groups continue working together and are now extremely close to the 
real Strephon.  But the crew keeps wondering why the diplomat keeps playing 
games with naming their final destination (the diplomat doesn't _know_ the 
final destination, he can only guess at the best intercept course to catch 
Strephon).  Finally, one last jump will catch Strephon's caravan.  But 
exactly which jump?  Guess wrong, and more time is lost and Strephon will 
get further away, because he is travelling at jump-6 maneuever-6, a 
combined speed that the 'Beowulf' can almost but not quite match.  (I think 
the Beowulf should be jump-6 maneuever-5 agility-5.) Guess right, and bingo 
they're in the same system as Strephon and can initiate communications and 
arrange a meeting.  The diplomat doesn't have the expertise to predict the 
right jump destination with reasonable chance of success.  He needs all the 
navigational expertise the Beowulf crew can give him.  But for that, he 
needs to tell them a lot more about the identity of the person he is 
chasing that he really wants to.  The 'Beowulf' captain tells the diplomat 
she needs a lot more info from him, he is too vague, she can't predict what 
he's asking without knowing a lot more about the party they're trying to 
catch up to.  Another hurdle to clear in building trust.  And when he does 
tell her, what do she and her crew make of a Zhodani diplomat escorted by 
two hired Zhodani killers who is desperate to catch up to Strephon but 
doesn't want anybody to know?  Suspicious, eh?  More trust-building hurdles 
to clear.  Finally, the Zhodani diplomat and the 'Beowulf's' retired 
Imperial Navy captain trust each other enough to work together. Even then, 
using all their pooled smarts and experience, it's a dice roll whether 
they've guessed the right place to jump and intercept Strephon.  They're 
now in jump space for a week, waiting, anxious.  The captain:  am I right 
to trust this Zho or are they duping me and I'm bringing an assassin to 
meet my vulnerable Emperor?  The diplomat:  these fearful, paranoid, 
suspicious, Impies.  I envy them their freedom and wildness, but how can I 
be gambling so much on the success of a perfect example (the captain) of 
just such wildness?  Is the captain intentionally misleading me?  (Still 
wearing her psi shield, or maybe just one of those rare one-in-a-million 
immunes to telepathic reading.) And if not, did the captain guess the right 
jump destination?  Tension builds.

Did I mention that the diplomat is a man and the captain a woman?  I mean, 
come on.  We can't make a movie like this without some sort of romantic 
interests! Both a young-looking forties, both played by very attractive 
actors?  And is that...sexual tension (!) underlying their many 
disagreements and negotiations during these weeks of travel and adventure?

Things happen during the week of this last jump.  But neither of them seem 
willing to publicly admit to the wild and delirious passions they shared 
during the quietest hours of this last jump, they tried to keep their 
trysts a secret, and we think they've succeeded.  Do they still refuse to 
admit to themselves even that they are falling in love (or at least serious 
lust) with someone from a foreign and looked-down-upon civilization?  To 
the captain, Zhodani equals mind raping totalitarian who doesn't care about 
individuals.  To the diplomat, Imperial equals barbaric, psychologically 
stunted and bloodthirsty individuals who run amok only slightly less than 
wild vargr do.

I'm thinking Sigourney Weaver, Renee Russo, or maybe Nicole Kidman for the 
captain.  Somebody who is an excellent actress, has sex appeal, and can 
carry off being physical and adventurous, and also a bit world weary.  The 
diplomat has to have an aristocratic British accent of course <G> and also 
be a talented enough actor to carry off being strong, independent and 
capable, but somehow project an indefinable vulnerability and need for 
protection while travelling through such "barbaric" provinces.  Best 
casting I've come up with for him so far is Hugh Jackman, who seems pretty 
good.

There should also be a couple of romantic storylines for minor characters 
in the two parties.  Perhaps the aide to the diplomat and one of the ship's 
crew.  It doesn't take them long to acknowledge their interest in each 
other.  They should be fairly uncomplicated and likable characters. and the 
audience should be sympathetic to them.  They still have to overcome the 
outside barriers to their love of conventional prejudices and their mutual 
bosses being somewhat disapproving.  The second romantic storyline should 
involve one person from each party, also.  I'd like for there to be a vargr 
in each group.  I guess that means either one of the undercover Zhodani is 
a vargr, or one of the military escorts.  Perhaps both escorts should be 
from a vargr unit that has been part of the Zhodani Consulate for centuries 
and has a long and honorable tradition of guarding diplomatic missions and 
embassies.  Alternatively, if you want to play the alien race romance angle 
for much broader laughs, one of the romantic pair can be vargr while the 
other is aslan.  The first romantic pairing should be consummated 
(off-screen, this is a G or PG movie) before the two main characters have 
their trysts.  The second, alien-race pairing should be after.

The climactic scene of the film should be final jump succeeds at arriving 
in the correct star system, and succeeds at guessing where in the star 
system would be the smartest place to intercept Emperor Strephon's 
incognito small fleet.  (Smart deductions, plus a very good dice roll from 
someone with very high Navigation skill.  :-)  There are then a few quick 
scenes where the 'Beowulf' signals the Emperor's ship, recognition codes 
are exchanged between the diplomat and a high advisor of the Emperor's, and 
we see from the bridge of our beloved 'Beowulf', over the shoulder of the 
diplomat who is standing behind the pilot and captain, the form of the 
light cruiser carrying the Emperor growing larger and larger.  Docking is 
imminent, and we get a quick cut of the Fire Control Officer aboard the 
Emperor's ship in continuous contact with the Fire Control Officers on the 
escort vessels, advising them the approaching merchant has been recognized 
as friendly but maintain targeting lock with bay and spinal mount 
weapons.  The 'Beowulf' exterior is shown, looking rather small docked 
against the frontier cruiser that carries Strephon.

Those quick scenes should serve to introduce a few characters of the 
Emperor's party who will become prominent in the sequel.  Minor reference 
to them by name might have been made very quickly earlier in the film.  The 
final scene of the film is the entire party ushered into an extremely 
impressive yet informal audience chamber, the rest of the party left near 
the entrance under very professional guard and the diplomat and aide 
escorted forward to be formally introduced to the Emperor.  We see the 
Emperor moving forward with innate grace and noble bearing, and a curious 
smile.  Be sure to look for the sequel soon in theaters everywhere.

I like to picture the characters encountering at least a dozen Imperial 
Guard in full battledress from the moment they board the ship and all the 
into the audience chamber itself.  Starting with two in battledress as they 
pass through the airlock.  Perhaps one of the earlier minor difficulties 
the 'Beowulf' crew and diplomats had to overcome involved a graphic 
demonstration for the audience's benefit of just how amazingly capable 
battle dress can be.  Forget Boba Fett in 'Star Wars' and think more like 
the 'Predator' but with military weaponry instead of hunting weaponry.

I'd like to devise more about the individual characters, and flesh out more 
of the storyline, particularly the various minor adventures besetting the 
two parties during their journey and how these adversities draw them closer 
together over time.  And yes, I know we can't cast Sidney Greenstreet as 
the factor/friend because he's dead.  :->  How about uhhhhh Oliver Platt??

I think the rival fast merchant that took over our protagonist merchant's 
delivery should make a reappearance in the second film.  The trick is going 
to be casting Dulinor and writing the scenes to show his arrogant and 
decidedly lethal plans to assassinate the Emperor but only because he 
thinks it is for the greater good.  We have to show that he loves the 
Imperium, likes and respects Strephon, but just thinks there is only one 
sophont who is the right soph for the job at this critical juncture in 
history.  He goes through some soul searching, but we TMLers already know 
the answers he comes up with.  The Dulinor scenes should show all this, but 
be very economical and not take a lot of screen time.  Dulinor should be 
played by someone very tall and an obviously very fit physical 
specimen.  Lucan...?  I'm seeing Joaquin Phoenix, who did such a great job 
in a similar role in 'Gladiator'.

That's what I have so far, folks.  Comments?

--Laning
(traveller geek code is MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 08:12:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:12:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <DAV16h3lrGS1DknvCes0001cd0f@hotmail.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?  What does canon say on =
this?

Some parameters here:  I'm not talking about hijacking a ship, nor am I =
talking about ship theft incidental to piracy.

Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved in stealing a =
starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.

It seems to me the problem can be considered as four separate issues:

1.  Identifying a likely (unoccupied) target that can be operated by a =
prize crew no larger than the size of your theft team.  Scout ships =
(which often fulfill these conditions) will be targeted for theft much =
more frequently than battlecruisers (which hardly ever do).

It seems one could accomplish this step with visual surveillance, inside =
information from the ships crew or spaceport personnel, and/or Neural =
Activity Sensors.

2.  Approaching the vessel.

This ranges from child's play (an unguarded scout grounded in a sparsely =
populated area with the sole pilot/crewmember dead or distant), to an =
indirect form of suicide (an experimental warship docked at the naval =
base.)

Presumably, accomplishing this would be well nigh impossible at an A =
starport, non-trivial at a B and your better C's, and not beyond the =
realm of consideration at lesser facilities.

3.  Entering the vessel.

Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let you in. <g> =20

How do starships determine who to admit?  Whoever holds the key?  =
Voiceprints?  Biometrics?  Passwords?  Some combination?  Given =
sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar (doubtful) or a cutting =
torch (probably)? =20

Having forced your way in what active countermeasures do you have to =
defeat?  Does the ship send combat bots?  Does the environmental system =
become hostile?  Does an anti theft program deliberately destroy the =
Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the j-drive useless?

4.  Establishing vessel control.

Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do you get the starship =
to respond to your commands?  When you plop down on the pilot's couch =
what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver drive?  =
Again, is there a key?  Biometrics?  PIN numbers?  How much trouble =
would there be in performing the starship analog of a hot-wire job?

Awaiting feedback.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com




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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?&nbsp; =
What does=20
canon say on this?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Some parameters here:&nbsp; I'm not talking about =
hijacking a=20
ship, nor am I talking about ship theft incidental to =
piracy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved =
in stealing=20
a starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It seems to me the problem can be considered as four =
separate=20
issues:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>1.&nbsp; Identifying a likely (unoccupied) target =
that can be=20
operated by a prize crew no larger than the size of your theft =
team.&nbsp; Scout=20
ships (which often fulfill these conditions)&nbsp;will be targeted for =
theft=20
much more frequently than battlecruisers (which hardly ever =
do).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It seems one could accomplish this step&nbsp;with =
visual=20
surveillance, inside information from the ships crew or spaceport =
personnel,=20
and/or Neural Activity Sensors.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>2.&nbsp; Approaching the vessel.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This ranges from child's play (an unguarded scout =
grounded in=20
a sparsely populated area with the sole pilot/crewmember dead or =
distant), to an=20
indirect form of suicide (an experimental warship docked at the naval=20
base.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Presumably, accomplishing this would be well nigh =
impossible=20
at an A starport, non-trivial at a B and your better C's, and not beyond =
the=20
realm of consideration at lesser facilities.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>3.&nbsp; Entering the vessel.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let =
you in.=20
&lt;g&gt;</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>How do starships determine who to admit?&nbsp; =
Whoever holds=20
the key?&nbsp; Voiceprints?&nbsp; Biometrics?&nbsp; Passwords?&nbsp; =
Some=20
combination?&nbsp; Given sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar=20
(doubtful) or a cutting torch (probably)?&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Having forced your way in what active =
countermeasures do you=20
have to defeat?&nbsp; Does the ship send combat bots?&nbsp; Does the=20
environmental system become hostile?&nbsp; Does an anti theft program=20
deliberately destroy the Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the =
j-drive=20
useless?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>4.&nbsp; Establishing vessel control.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do =
you get the=20
starship to respond to your commands?&nbsp; When you plop down on the =
pilot's=20
couch what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver=20
drive?&nbsp; Again, is there a key?&nbsp; Biometrics?&nbsp; PIN =
numbers?&nbsp;=20
How much trouble would there be in performing the starship analog of a =
hot-wire=20
job?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Awaiting feedback.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:texasredshift@hotmail.com">texasredshift@hotmail.com</A></=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 08:42:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:42:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204010842.AAA08687@molly.iii.com>

"Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com> writes:

>How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?  What does canon say on =
>this?

Canon says little that I know of.  Generally, I assume it's hard.

>Some parameters here:  I'm not talking about hijacking a ship, nor am I =
>talking about ship theft incidental to piracy.
>
>Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved in stealing a =
>starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.
>
>It seems to me the problem can be considered as four separate issues:
>
>1.  Identifying a likely (unoccupied) target that can be operated by a =
<snip>. Not a huge problem, unless there's something unusual going on.

>2.  Approaching the vessel.

Agree.  This is dependent on assumptions about computerization; robots 
in most versions of traveller might be smart enough to object, though
by and large they won't be permitted to shoot you outright.
>
>3.  Entering the vessel.
>
>Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let you in. <g> =20
>
>How do starships determine who to admit?  Whoever holds the key?  =
>Voiceprints?  Biometrics?  Passwords?  Some combination?  Given =
>sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar (doubtful) or a cutting =
>torch (probably)? =20

For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't get
in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
do the ship much good, however.

>Having forced your way in what active countermeasures do you have to =
>defeat?  Does the ship send combat bots?  Does the environmental system =
>become hostile?  Does an anti theft program deliberately destroy the =
>Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the j-drive useless?

Most likely, none of the above; the ship yells for help and goes into 
lockdown mode.  Paranoid owners could easily equip the ship with kill
switches in a few critical concealed junctions.

>4.  Establishing vessel control.
>
>Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do you get the starship =
>to respond to your commands?  When you plop down on the pilot's couch =
>what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver drive?  =
>Again, is there a key?  Biometrics?  PIN numbers?  How much trouble =
>would there be in performing the starship analog of a hot-wire job?

For higher tech ships, most likely you're defeating biometrics, plus a
rather smart robot brain.  Unless you can steal startup information from
the owner, most likely you're talking hours or days of work, particularly
if kill switches have been installed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 08:59:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 03:59:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>
>For higher tech ships, most likely you're defeating 
>biometrics, plus a rather smart robot brain.  Unless you can 
>steal startup information from the owner, most likely you're 
>talking hours or days of work, particularly if kill switches 
>have been installed.
>
I have the feeling that an Imperial ability to commandeer 
your ship is a factor here.  Currently, the penalty for 
failing to obey orders when boarded has a variety of 
punishments, ranging from large fines, to loss of your 
license, loss of your ship (which may belong to your 
employer, not you), and probable jail time.  Even if they 
don't find anything else wrong.

There are probably locks of some sort.  But imagine if the 
crew was disabled by a malfunctioning life support system, 
and headed on a hazardous course.  Under your system, no 
rescue crew would be able to board normally, and if they did, 
they couldn't fly the ship.

I would bet that some locking system exists.  But probably 
not one that would then become more defensive if the locks 
were bypassed.  The locks are probably designed to defeat the 
majority of criminals, not those with sophisticated equipment 
(like the Imperial Navy).  It's probably coded into the 
ship's software by law -- even if they don't have the 
password or keys to get in, the Navy can override your ship's 
computer and seize control using simple, but sophisticated 
equipment when they board.

There might even be an interface that works through your 
transponder's software.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 09:03:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (P-O Bergstedt)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 11:03:17 +0200
Subject: [TML] Burn Heretic, Burn!
Message-ID: <3CA82255.1CACE976@berka.com>

After 102 votes, the Heresy IMTU poll is now closed.

In TATU (The Average Traveller Universe),
almost everyone is a heretic.

The result was: 
he++   23.53%
he+    51.96%
he     15.69%
he-     7.84%
he--    0.98%

Compare this result with previous poll:
http://zho.berka.com/polls.html

(The new poll is about Drop Tanks.)

  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN
/ * A o \_____/       \_____
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:24:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:24:11 +0800
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8A5CB.29530.200B430@localhost>

Hi all!

On 1 Apr 2002, at 3:59, John T. Kwon wrote:

> There are probably locks of some sort.  But imagine if the 
> crew was disabled by a malfunctioning life support system, 
> and headed on a hazardous course.  Under your system, no 
> rescue crew would be able to board normally, and if they did, 
> they couldn't fly the ship.
> 

Personally, I don't think that rescue ships would be all that likely 
anyway.  Salvage ships, maybe, but not rescue ships.

BUT, even if there were rescue ships, I bet they would have similar 
equipment to salvage ships (I'm thinking the beginning of /Aliens/ 
here) -- super-heavy-duty laser cutters, universal airlock adapters, 
the whole works.  If there really /is/ an emergency, and the rescue 
crew is authorized to enter the ship, they're not going to want to 
wait for the proper codes from Central Command and then for the 
locks to recognize them.  Parallel: In a car wreck, the paramedics 
don't try to find the right key, they just get out the Jaws of Life.  

In other words, I think that gaining access to a ship by pretending 
to be a legit authority would be quite hard, but blasting your way in, 
if you could first disable the crew, would be relatively easy.  I guess 
it depends on your final purpose...?

-- Rachel

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:51:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:51:48 PST
Subject: [TML] Splat gun
In-Reply-To: <197.49c174e.29d93b05@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20401.025148.6F4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>    Hi gang,
>    After seeing stats for one of these things someplace on-line, I got to 
> wondering just what exactly _IS_ an Aslan Splatgun anyhow?

Probably derived from the Centran splat gun. Find a copy of the
recently expanded re-issue of Christopher Anvil's "Pandora's Planet"
for an interesting story, and some examples of why Scouts have
nightmares. 


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:35:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:35:18 PST
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20020401084436.C5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Well, you actually *could* use EM fields to steer a high temp plasma
>> "plume" outside of the ship and retreive the cooled ions. <g>
>
> Not if you're looking to be stealthy!
>
> There is also the problem of pumping waste heat up to enormous
> temperatures, requiring something like 99.99% efficiency every step of
> the way.

Actually, if you are using a fusion reactor that involves magnetically
confined plasma, 8000 K is a quite *low* temp for the "exhaust" end of
the cycle. <g>


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:58:03 PST
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020401084647.D5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20401.025803.2u9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> On the other hand, a straight line course to the jump limit in a
>> direction at right angles to the line joining the start and end points
>> of the jump, and then accelerating at an angle to get the right vector
>> might be simpler. More time, but only two vectors to figure.
>
> Yes, it's simpler.  That's the course that ships lacking a navigator
> might take :)

Navigators prefer to minimize heading changes for some strange reason.
<g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:53:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:53:53 PST
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020401083839.B5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20401.025353.0o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> I'd say +/- 100 km/s is probably considered "good enough" most of
>> the time.
>
> For the destination system, yes.  Of course, if there is any leeway at
> all, freighter captains are probably going to arrive as "hot" as they
> can within those limits.  Time is money, and arriving with a 50 km/s
> inward vector instead of 0 saves about 3 hours.
>
> 3 hours doesn't necessarily sound like much out of a week's trip, but
> it does save about 5 Cr per dton of cargo and (probably more
> importantly) increases the chance of getting into port before a
> competitor does.

The problem is that if you were aiming for a point "ahead" of the
planet, and came out of jump late, your vector will be *away* from the
planet because you are now "behind" it. 

That is, your vector is pointed at where the planet was when you
expected to emerge from jump, which is behind where it is when you
*actually* come out of jump.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:03:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (P-O Bergstedt)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:03:29 +0200
Subject: [TML] GRUPS Traveller Reviews
Message-ID: <3CA85AA1.175A2553@berka.com>

Read some reviews of some new
GRUPS Traveller products at URL:
http://zho.berka.com/review.html

  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN
/ * A o \_____/       \_____
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:10:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 05:10:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] re: Real Life Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020330213337.009e8010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020401131058.13191.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Did somebody watch Jaws when they were not quite old
enough?  That would probably do it. :)

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I can't stand to be in water where I can't see the
> bottom.  I'm a basket 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:23:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 07:23:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] F15D Scorpion Recon Fighter TL 11
Message-ID: <3CA80B0E.6302.4EB743@localhost>

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Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body

A Recon fighter design for the Consort and Kiev, Thanks for the Inspiration Anthony



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     File:  F15C Scorpion 15T Fighter TL11.gtv
     Date:  1 Apr 2002, 7:16
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:30:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:30:54 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Playing around even more with the First In design sequence (hey, what else
am I supposed to do on a day like this?), I decided to calculate how the
number of places where complex animals (sentinent or non-sentinent) have
evolved are distributed over various world types.

I made a large (400.000 systems) data set, using a modifier of -11 to the
roll (in step 15) for icy rockballs with subsurface oceans. This is what I
came up with:

Subgiant :  1%
Nitrogen : 37%
Ammonia  : 20%
Desert   : 10%
Icy sub. : 11%
Earthlike: 21%

(ie 21% of all complex animals in the dataset evolved under Earthlike
conditions)

These numbers clearly do not match the OTU, since the most common forms of
advanced life there are evolved under Earthlike conditions (including all
of the major races).

I would be happy to try various modifications and see how they affect the
statistics, but I need something to aim for. How should advanced lifeforms
be distributed over the various world types?

Jon, all you need to do is to give me a set of percentages (as above), and
I'll happily tweak the modifiers to match those percentages.

A suggestion for a future reprint of GT: First In would be to include two
sets of modifiers for step 15: One that produces Traveller-like results,
and one that seems more in line with current science. To keep consistency
with the rest of the design sequence, the more realistic set would
probably be the default, while the Traveller-like set could be introduced
in a sidebar.

I think I may now call myself "rockhead"...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:40:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:40:59 +0200
Subject: [TML] Slightly OT: Transhuman space
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020330131738.009ec080@mindspring.com>
References: <20020330204047.4b56a9ad.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020330131738.009ec080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020401154059.1a5d3a2a.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Sleep when you're dead.  I haven't been able to determine if Warehouse
23 
> will deliver to the afterlife yet.  Damn fine book, and you can see why
i 
> want to adapt parts of it to Traveller.

I have now skimmed most of the book. Careful studies will have to wait
until I have properly studied what I really should study...  ;-)

I think I'll use this setting more or less as-is in order to introduce
some of my players to the joy of hard SF. If I tone down the most advanced
technologies a bit, things would be quite easy for newcomers to grasp.

Starting the game in 2041 would do the trick, focusing on the exposure of
the Ares conspiracy for starters, then more or less slowly (a few years at
a time) advance the campaign. This would allow all the developments to
come into focus, allowing exposure on every one of them.

Then, just for fun, I might throw in jump drive invention and the
encounter at Barnard's Star...  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 12:08:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:08:25 +0200
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <118.f28a399.29d90890@aol.com>
References: <118.f28a399.29d90890@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020401140825.473e1a87.jenry023@student.liu.se>

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> Probably because there are a lot more icy rockballs than there are
> Earthlike worlds.

Yes, absolutely. Also, icy rockballs are more likely to exist in older
star systems (around class M stars for instance), which increases the
complexity of native life.

Since canon doesn't have two thirds of all sentinent lifeforms living
under such conditions, the results are still strange to me.

These are my estimated probabilities of complex animal life (sentinent or
otherwise) on various world types:

Earthlike: 77%
Icy w/ subsurface: 46%
Nitrogen: 26%
Ammonia: 15%
Desert: 7%
Subgiant: 7%

If you want to tweak these numbers, what you need to do is to add
modifiers to the dice roll in step 15 of the design sequence.

Note: Since the design sequence is relatively complex, the exact numbers
should be taken with a grain of salt. In order to get better numbers, I
need to generate larger quantities of solar systems. I'll be happy to this
if you want better numbers.

> If you come up with an adjustment that seems right to you, let me 
> know - I'm told a reprint or second edition of First In is likely at
some
> point, so I'm assembling notes for changes to details of the world
> generation sequence.

Adding the following to Step 15 should do it:

"-X for icy rockballs with subsurface oceans"

where X is a number depending on the effect you desire.

X=0   Ten times more common than sentinence under Eartlike conditions
X=4   About five to six times more common
X=6   About three times more common
X=8   About 1.5 times more common
X=10  About 1.5 times LESS common (ie 0.67 times as common)
X=11  About 2.5 times LESS common (ie 0.4 times as common)

Note: The numbers above were relatively quickly generated, and are only to
be loosely trusted.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 12:12:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:12:23 +0200
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Timothy Little wrote:
<snip>
> Can a low-power organism afford power-hungry brain matter of the type
> you would expect for sentience?  If you're looking for an excuse, this
> should do.

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable explanation, thanks.  ;-)

Actually, the main reason I dislike the results is that they don't give
normal science-fiction settings. In a universe where the ideal habitat for
most sentinent races is an icy rockball, various classic SF stereotypes
don't fit in. In fact, in Traveller, most races are evolved under Eartlike
conditions, so the other numbers are also strange in that regard.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 14:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:13:17 -0500
Subject: [TML] 2 tons of beer and 4th place 8) (was CT Ship Design)
Message-ID: <OFCD639861.BF4D0240-ON85256B8E.004C0CE0@pheaa.org>







<snip>
>> about 7 months ago i entered the "Cortez" into Hot Rod Race. the Cortez
was
>> a modified Scout. well before the results where posted my company laid a
>> bunch of people off including me.
>>
</snip>
>>

>The Hot Rod race took place on the CT-Starships list.  The race results
were:
>                 Hellbent 20 pts
>                 Abrr Chatlqaf 19
>                 Princess Lucky 14
>                 Cortez 12
>                 Renown 10

WOO HOO! 4th place 8) i was so sure John and I would come in last. Not bad.
So you know Cortez is the scout ship of one of my NPC's Maria Vasquez. She
is a hot pilot and Johns char is a hot Engineer. between the two of them
nothing they can not do 8)

>Also, another quote re the Cortez...
--- In ct-starships@y..., "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@r...> wrote:
>> <snip>
>> My personal favourite design has to be Cortez, any ship that can stick
>> closely to the rules and still manage Jump-4, 5G  with 2 tons reserved
for
>> beer has to be a good design :)
WOO HOO!
I love it. if i can find a way to use this as my sig to the TML with out
spaming the rest of work with it ill do it 8) Besides you never work on a
hot rod with out beer 8)

Bill Lane

"My personal favourite design has to be Cortez, any ship that can stick
closely to the rules and still manage Jump-4, 5G  with 2 tons reserved for
beer has to be a good design :)" Jeff Greenly


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 14:32:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 09:32:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] City Class Frigate
Message-ID: <3CA86F98.CFB1CEB2@mindspring.com>

Be the first in your subsector to have a real Imperial Naval Warship
named after your city! Imagine the fun and hijinks when 75 sailors and
Marines drop into your daughters favorite club with 3 months of
accumulated pay. Send the name of your city, system and subsector to
Admiral Clarice X. Roman mailto:admiralroman@hotmail.com c/o the 100th
IN Fleet at Glisten, along with 0.02 Crimp.
Only the first twentyfour (24) cities to reply will have ships actually
named after them. The 0.02 Crimp fee is non-refundable. The Glisten
Naval Shipyard is not responsible for lost or delayed X-mail.

The keel for the original City Class Frigate "City of Son Son Solay" was
laid down in 1102 at the Bilstein Yards at Glisten/Glisten. A single
Squad Drop Tube allows insertion of up to 20 individuals, although
doctrine dictates that decoy capsules will be used to fill out a normal
15 man squad. Retrieval gigs are used as interface craft in combat
operations with the Armed launches performing non combat roles. 59 tons
of cargo allow extended patrols without resupply. The Secondary plant
powers the weapons and provides for an agility of two (2), unless the
beam Lasers are double fired, in which case the agility is one (1). The
City Class Frigate is most often seen in a task group of several ships
when the fleet is not massed for battle. Three squadrons serve with the
100th Fleet at Glisten. Ships are named for cities in the Spinward
Marches.

Craft ID:  City Class Frigate, TL 15, 1280.282 Mcr, Quantity discount
1152.254 MCr

 Hull:        1800/4500, Disp=2000, Config=5SL(Sphere), Armour=49G (3),
Loaded=23403.17, Unloaded=21652.58

 Power:    Primary 67/134, Fusion=18,000 Mw, Duration=720hrs/30 days,
Scoops, Purifiers(24 hours whole tank)
                Secondary 40/80, Fusion=10,800 Mw, Duration=72hrs/3
days,
                ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=1280hrs/53 days
 Loco:      90/180, Jump=4, 198/396 Maneuver=4G, Avionics-15 190kph,
Agility=0/2

 Comm:    Radio=System x2, Laser=System x2

 Sensors:  A-EMS (FrOb) x 2, Hi-Dnst-F (1km) x 2 , P-EMS (IntStlr) x 2 ,
Neutrino-E (10 Kw)  x 2
                Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=R  POP=R  PES=S  PEP=R

 Off:         20 Hardpoints, 20 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Bays:     100 ton Missile Bay-15 x1
                        Turrets:  Triple Laser-13     x 6 in 3 battery
                                      Triple Sand-10      x 4 in 4
battery
                        Missile magazine: HE=30 b/r, Nuclear=4 b/r
                         Total=1700 missiles. 1 b/r=50 missiles
                         Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Laser     5    -    -
                                           3
                             Missile   -   A    -
                                               1
                             Sand      4    -    -
                                           4

 Def:        Def DM= +7/9, Optimized Nuclear Damper-15 x1

 Control:  Computer=Model 7/fib w/ Circuit protection x 3,
Panels=Holographic Linked x 1823,  Large holo x 1,
               HUD holo x 30

 Accom:  Officers=14 Crew= 61 ( Bridge=4 Engineering=5 Gunners=26
Flight=14 Troops=14 Command=10 Steward=2)
               Small Staterooms=10, Bunks=70, Squad Drop Tube=1,
Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
               inertial comp, Airlocks x6

 Subcraft:  Retrieval gig x 2 (20 tons, Crew 3, TL 15), Armed Launch x 2
(20 tons, Crew 2, TL 15)

 Other:      Cargo=797.3 Kl/59.1 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=13619
Kl/1009 tons, ObjSize=Large
                One jump requires 6750 KL/500 tons of fuel


Author: Alan Spik

Canon notices: The Squad Drop tube is non canon.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
A man needs a mistress if only to break the monogamy
                                     -Unknown



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:07:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:07:36 +0100
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> A suggestion for a future reprint of GT: First In would be to include two
> sets of modifiers for step 15: One that produces Traveller-like results,
> and one that seems more in line with current science. To keep consistency
> with the rest of the design sequence, the more realistic set would
> probably be the default, while the Traveller-like set could be introduced
> in a sidebar.

This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might be.
Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in the
game universe are - IMO - dubious.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:14:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:14:56 GMT
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
Message-ID: <E16s3WK-0001Qf-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

I would like to see the document and give any comments if you please.

Beth
> Just finished going through what will be a rather long=20
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units=20
> in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may=20
> differ.
>=20
> But..  I need more input.  I've just moved a current day=20
> document a fair number of years into the future (out to TL10,=20
> so far), and I would like to take it a bit further, say TL12.
>=20
> I am interested in anyone's input concerning what might be=20
> standard operating procedure (instructions to individual=20
> soldiers, teams, and platoons).  Some of the detail I have is=20
> down to the items to carry.
>=20
> I am especially interested in what might be SOP in regards to=20
> weapons, employment of specific weapons (such as, "always use=20
> the plasma gun to break contact").
>=20
> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing=20
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages=20
> so far.
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:28:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:28:16 GMT
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
Message-ID: <E16s3jE-0001h7-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

Any chance of seeing these?

Beth

> I'd be interested to see this...
>=20
> In days past I used to write such manuals for a live-role-playing game=20
> based on 25th century space marines. These included a medical manual, EOD=
=20
> procedures and even the Uniform Code of Military Justice (a guaranteed=20
> cure for insommnia!).
>=20
> Hugs and kisses,
>=20
> Mexal,
>=20
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:49:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 07:49:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Real Life Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <20020401131058.13191.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020330213337.009e8010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401074834.009ecec0@mindspring.com>

At 05:10 AM 4/1/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Did somebody watch Jaws when they were not quite old
>enough?  That would probably do it. :)

No, I saw Jaws and went to the beach the next day.  In Santa Cruz, which is 
one of the biggest areas for Great Whites in the world.  I think sharks are 
tres cool.  I don't know what triggered this, it just *happened.*


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:12:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 08:12:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] re: Real Life Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401074834.009ecec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020401161227.27322.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

Well, after I saw Jaws, the deep end of a cloudy
swimming pool was almost too much.  :)

I can remember going to the beach with my parents as a
boy.  We would rent a catamaran.  On the Mississippi
coast they put posts in where the water gets over 4-5
feet deep at high tide.  I would panic and cry when my
parents wanted to go "past the posts" on the cat. 
Now, mind you, the deepest part of this chanel (in the
area we were) is about 13-15 feet at high tide.  And
the sharks are rarely if ever found between the beach
and the islands.

I think I am OK with the water now, but occasionally I
will still have a bit of anxiety.

ObTrav: I can imagine there are some who have panic
attacks on their first trip into space and even more
with their first trip into Jump.  Put one of these
NPC's on the Char's ship and a few minutes from the
Jump point he freaks out.  He will pay for the return,
but the other passengers don't want to waste the time.


Paul
--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 05:10 AM 4/1/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >Did somebody watch Jaws when they were not quite
> old
> >enough?  That would probably do it. :)
> 
> No, I saw Jaws and went to the beach the next day. 
> In Santa Cruz, which is 
> one of the biggest areas for Great Whites in the
> world.  I think sharks are 
> tres cool.  I don't know what triggered this, it
> just *happened.*


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:23:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:23:17 -0500
Subject: [TML] I must be a gearhead...
Message-ID: <200204011623.DDB00400@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was reading the FAS site, and they have this diatribe 
against low-yield earth penetrating nukes.  They say there's 
no way to build a weapon that would penetrate that deeply and 
still contain the burst.  Well, they put a link to the 
equations on the page, so I looked up the lowest yield of 
Davy Crockett, and the penetration of the GBU-28 (concrete 20 
feet, earth 100 feet), and it looks like I only need 60 feet 
of penetration.

So, if I wanted to kill a bunker, just put the bomb into the 
ground just short of the bunker and he's bunkmates with about 
4 kilotons of nuclear explosion.  A little venting from the 
entry path, but the retarc holds the rest in.

Sounds like a good missile for Traveller, eh?

Well, the person I'm arguing with at FAS says it isn't a very 
useful weapon.  Which brings me to another question, if 
you're opposed to nuclear weapons, why use a technical 
argument?  It would be better to stick to a moral/ethical 
objection, because if you give an engineer/gearhead enough 
money and time, virtually anything can be made to work.

Especially nuclear weapons and earth penetrators.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:46:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:46:56 +0100
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
References: <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>

> Actually, the main reason I dislike the results is that they don't give
> normal science-fiction settings. In a universe where the ideal habitat for
> most sentinent races is an icy rockball, various classic SF stereotypes
> don't fit in. In fact, in Traveller, most races are evolved under Eartlike
> conditions, so the other numbers are also strange in that regard.

I don't think that the presence of complex lifeforms in the oceans of an
Iceplanet, 10km+ under the surface, is likely to noticeably going to affect
the Traveller universe. It's not as if you are going to actually meet any of
them on a day to day basis.

Of course all the Major races evolved on Earthlike worlds... Its had to
develop a spacefaring civilisation then there is a kilometres thick ice
sheet between you and the stars (not that you'd even know they existed...)

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:51:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:51:51 -0500
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
Message-ID: <200204011651.DDB04154@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I like to have robots, but there's a certain tedium to Book 
8.  So far, I've resorted to just "saying" that a robot is a 
certain way.  I don't really like the Star Wars robots, but 
there is a certain edge to the robots as presented in AI 
(where they are "nearly" like us, but still imperfect).

How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:56:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:56:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] does that make me an apostate?
Message-ID: <200204011656.DDB04760@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

As I've gotten older, I've just gotten to doing some 
equipment by "it's about this long, about this heavy, etc.."

I've done the same thing with NPCs.

Sometimes FFS drives me nuts. 

I seem to be able to write about some things better if I just 
say things are "just so".

After all, can anyone out there take any of the robot design 
sequences and come up with Gigolo Joe?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:15:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:15:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017681340.6838.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
> 
> Actually, if you are using a fusion reactor that involves magnetically
> confined plasma, 8000 K is a quite *low* temp for the "exhaust" end of
> the cycle. <g>.

The problem is waste heat from on-board systems, not direct inefficiencies of
power production.  For example, life support produces heat equal to its power
consumption, at a normal temperature of around 300K.

Of course, the big power consumption of a ship is for drives and weapons, both
of which will have unknown (but lower) heat output.  Biggest problem is
weapons, which have somewhat canon efficiencies, that are rather low.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:29:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:29:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017682194.5758.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> I have the feeling that an Imperial ability to commandeer 
> your ship is a factor here.  Currently, the penalty for 
> failing to obey orders when boarded has a variety of 
> punishments, ranging from large fines, to loss of your 
> license, loss of your ship (which may belong to your 
> employer, not you), and probable jail time.  Even if they 
> don't find anything else wrong.

Huh?  How is this relevant?
> 
> There are probably locks of some sort.  But imagine if the 
> crew was disabled by a malfunctioning life support system, 
> and headed on a hazardous course.  Under your system, no 
> rescue crew would be able to board normally, and if they did, 
> they couldn't fly the ship.

First of all, locks designed to be used in port are presumably already disabled
after you've taken off.  Secondly, most rescue/patrol craft will be able to
deal with a ship with impaired drives anyway, just push it into a more sensible
orbit.
> 
> I would bet that some locking system exists.  But probably 
> not one that would then become more defensive if the locks 
> were bypassed.

It depends on where you plan on landing.  Free traders who land on insecure
worlds probably have pretty extensive security, bulk cargo carriers who never
leave the mains probably have rather limited security.

> The locks are probably designed to defeat the 
> majority of criminals, not those with sophisticated equipment 
> (like the Imperial Navy).  It's probably coded into the 
> ship's software by law -- even if they don't have the 
> password or keys to get in, the Navy can override your ship's 
> computer and seize control using simple, but sophisticated 
> equipment when they board.

Doubtful.  The IN can seize control via the simple, but sophisticated equipment
known as guns.
> 
> There might even be an interface that works through your 
> transponder's software.

Even less likely.  Information like that can be stolen, and if so, is vastly
more useful to terrorists and criminals than it could ever be to the Navy. 
Again, the Navy can seize control through the exotic technique of 'superior
firepower'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:33:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 12:33:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>

MJD said:
>This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
>First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might be.
>Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in the
>game universe are - IMO - dubious.

I take a much less dour outlook than MJD.  I haven't read it, but so many 
people keep telling me how great 'First In' is that I think it was 
absolutely a worthwhile book and intend to either buy a reprint/second 
edition or get the original from Traveller Trader at Downport.com.  Sounds 
like the future edition will be updated with Mr. Rydholm's suggestions.

Traveller books have been in need of various "fixing" since at least the 
first edition of Book 5 - High Guard.  If GDW had decided not to fix that 
with a second edition, we'd be worse off.  I think that if there's any 
lesson to be learned from these instances, it's that you should always try 
to do more playtesting, analysis, debugging, copy editing, and editing 
before releasing a product.  Imperium Games being the poster child for that 
need.

Thanks Jen, for doing a very useful and interesting exercise with the 
distribution of 'First In' world gen results.  That sound you weren't 
hearing was hard drives saving the info you posted.  And thanks to the 
author of 'First In' for seeking constructive criticism and incorporating 
it into your work.  It's bemusing that your response to the criticism was 
so mature and professional, when so many of the most famous game authors of 
other games would have been defensive and even combative if placed in your 
shoes.  I know they would, because I've seen them placed in your 
shoes.  From its start, Traveller seems to involve a better class of 
writers.  (We'll leave certain obvious exceptions out of that statement.  :-)

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:37:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:37:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] I just found the psionics institute
Message-ID: <200204011737.DDD02290@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.remoteviewing.com/

The company is named Psi-Tech.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:41:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 12:41:33 EST
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>

> This is what happens when people decide to "fix" 
> Traveller. First In does not produce Traveller 
> worlds - however realistic it might be. Design 
> systems that do not allow you to create what already 
> exists in the game universe are - IMO - dubious.

It may surprise you to learn that I entirely agree
with you.

First In had two main design goals: realism and support
for Classic Traveller world generation.

Unfortunately, the further I went the more I discovered
that the two were completely incompatible. CT worldgen
(including the extended system in Book 6) simply breaks
the laws of physics. Repeatedly. In ways that are very
hard to gloss over.

My response was to make "realistic" the default setting,
and include a number of notes demonstrating how to go
about something more Classic in style if that was to
your taste. In retrospect that was probably the wrong
strategy. At the time I wasn't sure what the biggest
part of the audience would be - long-time Traveller
players or newcomers. Clearly, I guessed wrong.

If First In goes to a second edition, I think the world
design sequence will default to something much more
like Book 6 worldgen, with "realism notes" allowing the
referee to flesh things out or substitute more realistic
steps to taste. (About the only thing that I would "fix"
in the default sequence would be the formula for world
surface temperature in Book 6, which is not only wrong,
but wrong in such a way that it actually makes Book 6
much harder to use.)

I suspect that would make First In considerably easier
for long-time Traveller fans to use in their established
Traveller universes - while still allowing folks who
roll their own to be as realistic as they choose.

---
Jon F. Zeigler
JFZeigler@aol.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:45:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:45:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020316125548.A20449@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Mar 16, 2002 12:55:48 PM
Message-ID: <200204011745.g31Hji001663@localhost.uia.net>

As I've mentioned before, I've been toying w/ the idea of
inertial suppression as a means of fast accelleration in an
sf-rpg I'm *slowly* putting together w/ the help of some
friends. However, there's some conflict over how to achieve
this (I can email two articles which hint at the scientific
premise to anyone who's interested). There's also the problem
of unintended consequences. Since inertial suppression also
exists in Traveller (so that ships can accellerate at 6G
w/o squashing their crews), it might be a good idea to
consider these consequences for a bit.

I wrote in an earlier post that onboard a ship where inertia
was being supressed:
> one crewmember shoving another would be like a
> feather shoving a feather. They would feel exactly the same thing
> and would react with their environment in exactly the same way,
> because apparent mass in reduced for the entire environment,
> including both of them.

Tim countered:
> So long as the forces are also reduced, no problem.  e.g. Suppose a
> person has their mass reduced by a factor of 1000.  Of course, such
> force ultimately comes from chemical energies.  But then you have to
> worry about activation energies of internal chemical processes
> necessary to life.  OK, so handwave them to near-zero as well.  So all
> chemical bonds must be 1000 times weaker to match the mass reduction.
> Furthermore, the charge on the electron and proton must be shifted
> downward by the same factor of 1000, or atoms are no longer stable at
> their normal size.  Likewise the strength of the strong nuclear force
> must be downshifted.
> 
> So, what does this mean for sunlight impinging upon the spacecraft?
> Each visible photon from the sun now vastly exceeds the binding energy
> of atoms in the hull, and behaves very much like an intense x-ray
> source capable of vaporizing any material.
> 
> Now, the energies of photons emitted *inside* the ship are 1000 times
> lower due to lower atomic transition energies, and hence have
> wavelengths 1000 times longer.  This plays absolute hell with all
> sorts of physical processes, so you'd better lower Planck's constant
> by a factor of 1000 while you're at it to fix this up.

Basically, if I read him right, what he appears to be saying is that
if you lower inertia in a given space by 99%, people in that area will
have much more strength than they're used to having, because the
chemical reactions going on in their bodies which generate energy
will still be generating as much energy, but for a much smaller
apparent mass, meaning that they'll be able to perform extrodinary
feats (and quite possibly hurt themselves), and that the only way
around this is to downscale everything else, which generates a
very strange and inconsistent reality.

What do other people think about this argument?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:45:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:45:14 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <00d001c1d9a5$0cff6560$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> I take a much less dour outlook than MJD.

I didn't mean to sound *that* negative! It's just that part of the canon
problem with Traveller is the endless series of canon-fixes that keep
appearing, giving the canonistas something to cannonade one another about.
Each fix seems to create more problems than it solves!

>
> Traveller books have been in need of various "fixing" since at least the
> first edition of Book 5 - High Guard.  If GDW had decided not to fix that
> with a second edition, we'd be worse off.  I think that if there's any
> lesson to be learned from these instances, it's that you should always try
> to do more playtesting, analysis, debugging, copy editing, and editing
> before releasing a product.  Imperium Games being the poster child for
that
> need.

Oh yes! Can't argue there. Hence the T20 delay...

>
> Thanks Jen, for doing a very useful and interesting exercise with the
> distribution of 'First In' world gen results.  That sound you weren't
> hearing was hard drives saving the info you posted.  And thanks to the
> author of 'First In' for seeking constructive criticism and incorporating
> it into your work.  It's bemusing that your response to the criticism was
> so mature and professional, when so many of the most famous game authors
of
> other games would have been defensive and even combative if placed in your
> shoes.  I know they would, because I've seen them placed in your
> shoes.  From its start, Traveller seems to involve a better class of
> writers.  (We'll leave certain obvious exceptions out of that statement.
:-)
>

Like whom?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:49:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:49:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
Message-ID: <200204011749.DDD03964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
effects when you modify Planck's constant.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:51:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:51:18 +0100
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00e301c1d9a5$e66a4540$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>>
> If First In goes to a second edition, I think the world
> design sequence will default to something much more
> like Book 6 worldgen, with "realism notes" allowing the
> referee to flesh things out or substitute more realistic
> steps to taste. (About the only thing that I would "fix"
> in the default sequence would be the formula for world
> surface temperature in Book 6, which is not only wrong,
> but wrong in such a way that it actually makes Book 6
> much harder to use.)
>
> I suspect that would make First In considerably easier
> for long-time Traveller fans to use in their established
> Traveller universes - while still allowing folks who
> roll their own to be as realistic as they choose.

Can't argue with any of this. I want realism in worldgeneration (I'm still
an engineer by mindset) but I also want compatibility with existing
unrealism. Is that unreasonable or what?? Call me hard to please if you
will... But anyway, I wouldn't worry about what I said too much. I like
First In overall...
MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:19:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 10:19:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] I just found the psionics institute
References: <200204011737.DDD02290@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8A4BE.6B18B1F0@attbi.com>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> http://www.remoteviewing.com/
> 
> The company is named Psi-Tech.

"Found?", Major Ed Dames And Psi Tech are major guests on the 
Art Bell Show. "Sides Psi Tech claims "anyone can do remote
viewing", and as we know the Psi roll is for PCs only....

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:23:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:23:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017685386.1051.ajackson@ping>

JFZeigler@aol.com writes:

> First In had two main design goals: realism and support
> for Classic Traveller world generation.
> 
> Unfortunately, the further I went the more I discovered
> that the two were completely incompatible. CT worldgen
> (including the extended system in Book 6) simply breaks
> the laws of physics. Repeatedly. In ways that are very
> hard to gloss over.

With the exception of small worlds with breathable atmospheres, what's so bad
about CT worlds?  All you need to do to produce traveller-like worlds is have a
system that produces around a hundred worlds per hex, and then picks the
lifelike one ;)

I actually put together something more or less like this, a while back; I
figured out based on the general world generator the probable distribution of
certain characteristics for earthlike worlds, and thus you can simply directly
roll up the 1% of worlds that are interesting.  You'd need to add rules for
generating any non-earthlike worlds (say, 50% chance of an earthlike world, 50%
chance for a non-earthlike middle-zone terrestrial world), but that's not too
hard.

http://maps.grandsurvey.com/hero/worlds.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:42:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:42:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] Comm check
Message-ID: <20020401.104247.-84283.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:10:39 -0600 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
> ping ping ping ping ping
> 
> Here we go again.
> 
> ISS Agena at the outer beacon.

Welcome Agena, good to see you again.
This is the IS Virgin Isle (5,000 dton luxury resort vessel), resounding
with two pings

<ping, ping>

Agena, perhaps this visit you'll  swing by for a visit.
I'm 90 degrees starboard, parked just outside marker two, range 2,000 kl.

Don't forget, our luxurious suites, casino, Jacuzzi's, health club,
exotic clubs, glorious dining, and we mustn't forget Andrea's Place. All
here waiting for you the weary traveller.


.--.   ...       .----   .----   -....   ---...   ----.       ..      
.--   ..   .-..   .-..       .--   .-   .-..   -.-       -...   .   ..-. 
 ---   .-.   .       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..       ..  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   .-   -.   -..       ---   ..-.       -
  ....   .       .-..   ..   ...-   ..   -.   --.   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:45:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:45:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV16h3lrGS1DknvCes0001cd0f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>

Bill Scheets aka Tex asks how hard is it to steal a grounded or docked 
starship IYTU.

My results vary.  In my first Traveller game, the entire small group 
decided they needed to boost planet and do it right away.  Confident that 
Laning's RPG would be just as fast and loose as everyone else's in our 
gaming club, they hopped the starport fencing and began strolling toward 
their nearby scout ship that was under guard while they were being 
investigated for certain previous actions.

Only to be confronted by a second and a third fence.  Sheer luck dictated 
that no guards were being attentive to their security cams and no patrols 
happened by.  But you'd think the sight of three fences, razor wire, and 
guard towers would tip them off that this was going to be a nontrivial 
task.  Aha! they say, only some fences and a guard tower, This will be 
easy.  Laning groans and looks at them, shaking his head.  Misreading these 
signs from the referee, they are even further emboldened.

At the airlock to the scout, I decide the best thing is to have the guard 
doing sentry duty aboard the ship should come out to talk to them, and give 
them a chance to talk their out of this.  Or at least talk their into 
reducing into a minor misdemeanor.  As soon as the door begins opening they 
all shoot him.

This was an early session of my game, and I really wanted to attract the 
players to return for more sessions in the future by making it fun for 
them.  Big, big mistake.  I figured the best thing was just let them take 
off, escape orbit, jump out, and assume the life of fugitives.  Well, if 
you let your players bully you once, they're only going to run even more 
amok in the future.  That game did not last long.  In other Traveller 
gaming, my universe has included all the ultratechnological, ultraparanoid, 
doublecheck and doublesafeguards that owners and insurers could think of 
against starships being damaged or stolen.  Just as you'd expect for 
something worth hundreds of millions of credits.

If that same party tried that same stunt again, I'd have the guards at the 
fence shoot them with tranq and they'd wake up in jail.

The example I gave was for a starship they already "owned" (technically, 
the retired scout was in the reserves and was responsible for the ship as 
property of the Imperial Scout Service).  There would be voice and keyboard 
commands at the airlock exterior, interior, engineering, and bridge 
hatchways.  Voiceprint and thumbprint verification required.  Piloting and 
engineering controls would have had the same requirements again.  An 
already-authorized and verified person on the interior could override the 
authorization process at the airlock so that routine embarkation and 
disembarkation of passengers and crew would not be cumbersome.  If set the 
shipboard security system is set to higher states of alert, then more than 
one person is required to get past authorization checkpoints, and/or more 
secret security codes must be used.  A ship belonging to the ISS in that 
situation would have been handled by the local legal authorities requesting 
the ISS help them.  The ISS would have had the pilot's normal security 
programs temporarily suspended and inaccessible, and replaced them with 
their own.  They have tools and overrides of their own for just this sort 
of situation.

If the guard who was aboard the ship had wanted to talk to the PCs when 
they reached his airlock, he would have just activated an intercom and 
spoken to them from the bridge, while waiting for the starport's SWAT team 
to arrive.  If the PCs had brought weapons or explosives capable of 
breaching the hull of the ship and gaining access, there would be automatic 
security programs would have taken over to incapacitate the 
boarders.  Including, lighting, temperature controls, random and extreme 
variations in the artificial gravity grid (from weightless state to 
negative one gee to positive one gee then back to negative one gee, etc.), 
locking down all interior and exterior hatches, and even evacuating air 
from different spaces.  Each individual grav plate is separately 
controlled, and there are preprogrammed routines for turning off all grav 
plates in a corridor except one which is turned to maximum, and sequencing 
which plate is turned to maximum so as to pull someone in the corridor to 
one end or the other of it.  With sufficiently high-powered grav plates, 
someone can be thrown into an airlock, for instance.

Insurance companies and mortgage companies insist upon certain security 
precautions for ships, and these must be thoroughly inspected during annual 
maintenance.  Most security systems can be controlled by anyone who knows a 
username and password, and their are heirarchical levels of security.  For 
instance, passengers can set a few security options for their own cabins, 
crew can set security options on low berths, etc. and the captain can 
override those settings and even lock out those individual users, and the 
owner can override the captain.  I rely on simple password and username 
because they are fast and only require either spoken or typed input from 
personnel.  Personnel who might be depending for their lives on getting 
fast access to security and controlling it.  There are also many closed 
circuit, neural activitiy sensors, and other sensors used to determine 
whether hatches are open or shut, bulkheads or hull is breached, and so 
on.  Security console(s) located on the bridge.

If the 'Alien' from the movie boarded my ship, I'd be able to pull all the 
crew to the bridge or main engineering control station, open the rest of 
the ship to vacuum, and read various sensors to know the precise location 
of the alien.  Hiding in ductwork in the ceiling would not make a 
significant difference.  If unable to throw the alien into open space by 
playing games with accelerating/decelerating the ship, gravity controls and 
air pressure, then a complete set of vacc suits for crew is kept in the 
ship's locker, accessible only from the bridge, as are weapons.  Subsequent 
events to be determined by the referee.  :->

A ship with maneuver-1 would typically only have internal artificial 
gravity of one gee.  This would be sufficient to deal with most unwanted 
boarders, even if only the ship's automated security routines are triggered 
and there is no crew aboard.  But it wouldn't be much deterrent to the 
'Alien'.  Ships with maneuver-6 would have internal gravity to match, and 
be able to hurl an unwanted boarder around from positive six gees to 
negative six gees.

If thieves manage to take control of the ship enough to lift off from 
planet, they'll still have to deal with starport and orbital traffic 
control.  This will include knowing what identifying call sign they are 
assigned, filing a flight plan, and getting clearances.  A docked ship will 
also have its security system linked to the starport, and if the security 
is triggered at any point, the starport security will immediately be 
alerted.  The thief will still have to somehow evade starport, COACC, and 
Imperial facilities, in most systems.  Think satellites, missiles, deep 
meson guns, and SDBs.

Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no 
scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the 
fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world 
in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL 13 
COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much less 
likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:58:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:58:21 EST
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <12d.f1855a6.29da07cd@aol.com>

I've been following the debate over the "First In" design sequence with 
interest. Part of the "problem" comes, I suspect, from an assumption that any 
world can develop a complex ecosystem.

This is unlikely since the complexity of the ecosystem is likely to be 
related to the available food sources at the bottom of the food chain. These 
will be severely limited on an Ice ball, even an old one. Hence the easy way 
round the problem is to cap the positive modifiers available for non-ocean 
worlds. I'd suggest +6 is a suitable number, altough I'm not an expert on 
First In so other numbres might be more suitable. 

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:13:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:13:40 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <F198zoDtLvggeHVTugl000061ac@hotmail.com>

>Can't argue with any of this. I want realism in worldgeneration (I'm >still 
>an engineer by mindset) but I also want compatibility with >existing 
>unrealism. Is that unreasonable or what??

Not really. In programing it's called being bug compatible...

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Johnny)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:14:52 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #365
References: <20020331161119.260AC279E7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c1d9b9$e469ca40$6501a8c0@yucca.net>

On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 23:32:40 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> Just finished going through what will be a rather long 
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units 
> in Traveller.  
> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing 
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages 
> so far.

I'm a lurker, but I'd be willing to reveiw it too. gamersvault@yucca.net 

- Johnny


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:29:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:29:32 -0700
Subject: [TML] GRUPS Traveller Reviews
References: <3CA85AA1.175A2553@berka.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8C32C.7020903@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

P-O Bergstedt wrote:
> Read some reviews of some new
> GRUPS Traveller products at URL:
> http://zho.berka.com/review.html

Aren't all grups reviews supposed to start 'Bonk bonk onna head!' ?? ;-)

> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:56:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:56:47 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <00d001c1d9a5$0cff6560$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>

MJD quotes and then asks:
> >From its start, Traveller seems to involve a better class of
> > writers.  (We'll leave certain obvious exceptions out of that statement.
>:-)
> >
>
>Like whom?

I mostly had the aforementioned Imperium Games in mind.  :-<

Thanks for setting me straight on your "level of dourness".  And I really 
loved your little exposition about "canonistas" and "canonades".  Keep up 
the good writing.  :->

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:57:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:57:58 -0700
Subject: [TML] room clearing
References: <200203312207.DBP01462@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8C9D6.9000605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> The only problem I have with the new room clearing technique 
> is that if people are expecting you, then all they need is a 
> long burst fire (belt fed) to keep you out of the room.
> 
> The new technique involves a team of 4 flowing into the room 
> and moving left or right as they flow in and occupy corners 
> of the room by flowing along the walls.
> 
> Might make an interesting scenario to game out using ACQ.
> 
> If the people flowing into the room have more actions per 
> combat round than the people occupying the room, it might 
> work. 
> 
> The use of grenades is now an exception in room clearing.  I 
> do remember throwing a simulator into a closet in MOUT 
> training, and being declared a casualty.  Maybe they have 
> something there.

I wonder how this compares, to, say, standard SWAT protocol for the 
same. They make extensive use of flashbangs (Presumably the 'stun 
grenade' mentioned in the link.

Presumably they are less likely to encounter return fire than soldiers 
clearing a room in a battle, but there's also the rather tricky (and 
now, all too common) mingling of non-combatants and combatants in 
today's battles.

Mis-calculate where enemy fire is coming from in a large building, and 
you could burst into the room next door, filled with refugees instead of 
bad guys.

All I can say is I DON'T want to be the poor sucker taking that #1 position.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:07:05 -0700
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <3CA8CBF9.3080002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Robert Houghton wrote:

> Actully I once saw a Catalina Flying Boat someone had refitted as a 
> mobile home winnebago style...thought this was as close to perfect as 
> you could get...if you could afford it...prolly only a little bit more 
> expensive as living on a boat and getting away for the weekend would be 
> a lot easier.

One reason that if I were to get filthy rich enough to afford it, I 
would get my own airplane: A C-130 outfitted as a flying RV.

They can land just about anywhere, even on unimproved runways, have a 
long range, parts are readily available, they're damn near 
indestructible, and there's a LOT of room.

I'm picturing two decks: a living deck and a garage deck, where you park 
your car/boat/atv's, hell you could carry along an ultralight asa 
'dingy' ;-)...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:22:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:22:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012122.DDL00281@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
>Subject: Re: [TML] room clearing  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>All I can say is I DON'T want to be the poor sucker taking 
that #1 position.
>

The more I think about it, the more I think it relies on 
having four people who are all well-practiced.  If you can 
all pour through the door before anyone inside can really 
react, it might work.  

Door charge set by #4 man blows door 
#1 man moves in, keeping back to the wall, moving to far 
right corner
#2 man buttonhooks to left near corner
#3 man right to right near corner
#4 straight left to far corner

Short bursts at any targets. Enter room with rifle shouldered.

The rapid pace is what is supposed to work here. Might be 
different in zero-g.

If you're slow, however, or unfamiliar, or get mixed up, 
you're going to get shredded.  I would bet that even an 
experienced team should practice this drill if they hope to 
pull it off.  For boarding, I would bet that the team might 
even do a drill on a stateroom or airlock on their own ship 
prior to boarding your ship.  Plus, they would call up 
deckplans and study them.

The other thing they would have going for them if they don't 
throw grenades (which are indiscriminate) is that they can 
enter multiple ingress points on the ship, with a lower rate 
of fratricide.  They can use the portable hull breaching/pier 
demolition charge to get into the ship.  Let's say two four 
man teams at each entry point, three entry points on a 400-
ton ship.  That's 24 men pouring into the ship without going 
through airlocks.

Looks like throwing grenades is for bunkers and for breaking 
contact.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:24:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:24:26 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <002401c1d9c3$ac6b2e40$6e9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >Like whom?
>
> I mostly had the aforementioned Imperium Games in mind.  :-<

Aha. My own pet hate is Imperium Games' editorial system, which actually
insterted spelling mistakes into my work! Spellchecker allowed to run
without supervision, I guess. Some of the writing was good. And some of it
set off the depressurisation alarms, it sucked so bad.

>
> Thanks for setting me straight on your "level of dourness".  And I really
> loved your little exposition about "canonistas" and "canonades".  Keep up
> the good writing.  :->
>

We aim to please... or is that shoot to kill?

Guess I'm just on a bit of a hair-trigger about all the people wanting me/us
to "fix" this or that about the Traveller universe, TNE, or GURPS Trav. Fix
it enough times and it'll be something completely different to what you
started with. Like my computer...

Regards

MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:40:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:40 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <memo.163716@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3CA8C9D6.9000605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Greetings dear hearts.

It's about 10 years since I was taught this... no, more, it was 1987...

The British Army method is: -

2-man entry team with 'mousehole' charge, blows a hole in outside wall of 
building (we don't come in the front door).

Someone chucks a grenade in, closely followed by a 2nd 2-man team 
who charge in through the hole, shooting.

Inside, working in two 2-man teams, you alternate between doing the 
grenade chucking and the charging in.

Of course, this method is only used if you don't care about the survival 
of anyone inside, or indeed much of the house itself!

The alternate method used for hostage rescue makes use of flash-bangs 
rather than frags, and shooting only occurs when a target has been 
positively identified.

Everybody, at least if you're infantry, learns the first, explosive 
method. The other one takes a lot of practice to get right...

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:44:04 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <3CA8CBF9.3080002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com>
 <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>

Living on an airplane would not be fun.  All that loud buzzing.  And the 
bad air.  Yuck.

My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.

I like to throw in people living out the Traveller version of this dream 
wandering from planet to planet, living on their converted merchant.  The 
more oft-encountered version of people living an imitation of this dream is 
the crew of a merchant that is family, or like a family together.  They 
still need to hustle for the credits to pay off the bank, keep the ship 
fuelled and maintained, etc.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:48:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:48:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

(Megan Robertson)  says
>Subject: Re: [TML] room clearing  
>
>The British Army method is: -
>
>2-man entry team with 'mousehole' charge, blows a hole in 
>outside wall of building (we don't come in the front door).
>
>Someone chucks a grenade in, closely followed by a 2nd 2-man 
>team who charge in through the hole, shooting.
>
>Inside, working in two 2-man teams, you alternate between 
>doing the grenade chucking and the charging in.
>

Yes, that's very similar to what was SOP just prior to the 
last technique.  What you describe above is what is known as 
Battle Drill #6.

Evidently there are problems with frags, and with two men 
trying to go in simultaneously.  There was a determination 
that two men are too few to handle things in a room if even 
one person is left alive after the grenade.  Three is now the 
minimum, and four is considered ideal.

And no frags!
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:52:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:52:37 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <000001c1d9c7$899aafe0$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>

Warren Buffett didn't seem to mind...

Matthew W. Helton


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of laning
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 15:44
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)

Living on an airplane would not be fun.  All that loud buzzing.  And the

bad air.  Yuck.

My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.

I like to throw in people living out the Traveller version of this dream

wandering from planet to planet, living on their converted merchant.
The 
more oft-encountered version of people living an imitation of this dream
is 
the crew of a merchant that is family, or like a family together.  They 
still need to hustle for the credits to pay off the bank, keep the ship 
fuelled and maintained, etc.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:52:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:52:59 +1000
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020401084436.C5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020402075259.B9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, if you are using a fusion reactor that involves
> magnetically confined plasma, 8000 K is a quite *low* temp for the
> "exhaust" end of the cycle. <g>

Yeah -- I wasn't actually counting the reactor as a direct source of
waste heat, since it has to be at least 99.99% efficient to provide
sufficiently high-quality power for pumping the *rest* of the waste
heat.

The problem comes with all the other ship's systems, the ones that
*use* the power provided by the reactor.  Obviously in stealth mode
you aren't thrusting or using weapons, but there's still environmental
support, sensors, control systems, LHyd cryo maintenance, and no doubt
hundreds of little things.  All of these would produce very low-grade
heat; probably at or near 300K.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:55:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:55:59 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <001f01c1d9c8$14f2af20$629193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> 
> My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
> twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.
> 
>

I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air force.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:08:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:08:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012122.DDL00281@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164502.02811320@pop.wizard.net>

Grenades are still for room clearing.  You just have to be judicious about 
using up your entire supply before you use up rooms that need to be cleared.

You also, as the link pointed out, have to be careful about not using 
powerful grenades in structures that will collapse.

And, of course you have to be careful to not clear a room that happens to 
include your own guys, or be in a room being cleared by your own guys.

No matter what specific drill you work out, speed and shock are still what 
you need to concentrate on using.  And judgment, heh.  The company 
commander's recommended room clearing drill seems effective regardless of 
its other attributes for three reasons.

(1) He gets a lot of people through the door in an extremely short 
time.  (Speed)
(2) He has a lot of people in the room all at once, each with automatic 
weapon as well as other fighting ability.  (Shock)
(3) The room clearing team has done a lot of practice and rehearsal.  (That 
makes any system work better.)

One other thing I'd like to note.  His drill assumes that you have the 
hallway(s) completely secured already.  As I recall, in European operations 
in WW2, things were often moving too quickly to have that luxury.  Or there 
weren't enough troops for it.

It all depends on the nature of the enemy and the nature of the 
terrain.  If the enemy is Nazi soldiers and the terrain is abandoned 
buildings constructed with strong materials and thick walls, then the "old 
battle drill" might work better.  If the enemy is militia and possibly has 
civilians nearby and the terrain is flimsily constructed buildings that 
sometimes have trouble with high winds, then his new battle drill might be 
better.

If I'm stuck defending a building that is being cleared by an enemy that 
has the superiority of force that the company commander seems to be 
implicitly assuming, then I would choose to withdraw from the building and 
pick a fight at a better time and place.  So yeah, his battle drill will 
succeed quite nicely at securing every room in the building.

If I'm clearing rooms with TL 12+ troops, then I think I'd rely a lot on 
neural activity sensors and advanced night vision that can see IR images 
through walls, depending on wall thickness.  My doctrine would be to have 
some assault troops with lots of personal armor protection do the room by 
room part, after less heavily armored troops secure the perimeter of the 
building or at least part of the perimeter.  I'd also try to use tranq gas 
or riot gas.  IIRC, US troops in Viet Nam found that CS was very handy for 
clearing rooms without increasing the number of civilian casualties even 
higher than it was already climbing.  If there was very little chance of 
civilians in the building, then I'd go with stun or frag grenades, 
depending on the structure.  Or maybe just lob some white phosphorous RAM 
grenades in from the street and shoot anyone who flees the burning building 
as it collapses.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:05:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:05:32 +1000
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20401.025353.0o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020401083839.B5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20401.025353.0o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> The problem is that if you were aiming for a point "ahead" of the
> planet, and came out of jump late, your vector will be *away* from the
> planet because you are now "behind" it. 

Oh, no!  Here we go with the discussion about which frame of reference
the jump emergence point follows, and the dynamics of moving 100D
limits :(

IMTU, jump emergence point is stationary with respect to the ship's
vector on jump entry.  Hence if the ship arrives late with an
inward-bound velocity vector, it will precipitate out on the planet's
100D limit.  This is even standard practice IMTU.


As far as I can see, there are three main contenders for how the jump
exit point moves:

1) Stationary with respect to the ship's entry vector.  This is the
one I use.  (However, it is not stationary in the relativistic sense,
just in a Galilean sense based on jumpspace)

2) Stationary wrt an absolute "jumpspace" frame of reference.  In
general, this will be moving at least a hundred kilometres per second
relative to most stars, and hence plotting an exit position is only
possible along a track a few million kilometres long due to time
variation in jump.  This seems to be the one you are assuming, but
contradicts the canonical accuracy of jump plotting so I discard it.

3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:11:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:11:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20020402075259.B9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017699082.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> The problem comes with all the other ship's systems, the ones that
> *use* the power provided by the reactor.  Obviously in stealth mode
> you aren't thrusting or using weapons, but there's still environmental
> support, sensors, control systems, LHyd cryo maintenance, and no doubt
> hundreds of little things.  All of these would produce very low-grade
> heat; probably at or near 300K.

Of course, rules notwithstanding, there's no real reason to assume that a ship
that's stealthy when idle is also stealthy when accelerating.  I suspect that
secondary systems (everything but active sensors, weapons, and drives) don't
have a routine power consumption of more than around .1 kW/dton, which means a
100 dton ship (for a sphere, 7 meter radius, cross-section 150 m^2 or so)
receives more sunlight than the amount of waste heat it needs to go with (by a
factor of about 20), which is sufficient to let it basically pump all of its
waste heat away in a very narrow angle.

The tricky part here is that you'll need a cryogenically cooled hull...plus
really really optimistic solar converters. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:12:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:12:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020401221258.43908.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com>

--0-1646151845-1017699178=:43005
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


 >> And no frags!  & 4 man teams

What about using stun grenades (flash/bangs?)  Are those useful at all?



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send greetings for Easter,  Passover
--0-1646151845-1017699178=:43005
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<P>&nbsp;&gt;&gt; And no frags!&nbsp; &amp; 4 man teams<BR><BR>What about using stun grenades (flash/bangs?)&nbsp; Are those useful at all?</P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br>
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--0-1646151845-1017699178=:43005--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:13:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:13:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> 3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
> planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.

This one has several things to recommend it, in particular the fact that it
cripples some of the simplest methods of relativistic bombardment.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:18:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:18:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip long evaluation about situation, etc.>

And the Army sums all of that up in "always consider METT-T 
when making decisions".  

The scale I'm thinking about is the typical Traveller party.  
They don't have enough bodies to do it right, on the 
average.  So they'll be throwing grenades.  But the soldiers 
who are fighting against a party might just rush in like this.

I'm not sure that you could move that quickly under zero-g 
conditions.

I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run 
on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship 
from stem to stern.  Arguably, orders are going to tell a 
military unit to use the least level of violence necessary to 
take your ship, but if you successfully resisted one boarding 
attempt, and they wanted the ship, they could just give you 
all the "treatment" and board after everyone dies of 
radiation.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:20:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:20:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] does that make me an apostate?
In-Reply-To: <20020401200104.BCEA627A48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sA9y-0003Dx-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

> As I've gotten older, I've just gotten to doing some 
> equipment by "it's about this long, about this heavy, etc.."
> 
> I've done the same thing with NPCs.
> 
> Sometimes FFS drives me nuts. 

Agreed.  Any design system you need a spreadsheet before is too 
complicated for any RPG I play.
 
> I seem to be able to write about some things better if I just 
> say things are "just so".

The only danger to consider is unintended consequences (ie PC 
being able to use a common device as a game-breaker), and 
design sequences don't help much with that.
 
> After all, can anyone out there take any of the robot design 
> sequences and come up with Gigolo Joe?

Book 8 isn't bad.  AB101 (also featured in the various Traveller's 
Digest adventures) isn't all that different from Gigolo Joe.  GJ is 
basically a TL15 pseudo-biological robot with the most advanced 
robot brain possible at that TL.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:21:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:21:48 +1000
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020402082148.D9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> These numbers clearly do not match the OTU, since the most common forms of
> advanced life there are evolved under Earthlike conditions (including all
> of the major races).

True, but a number of the major races actually evolved on *one* world,
and were moved later :)

It seems the Ancients preferred species who live under Earthlike
conditions, for some reason.  That would certainly skew the results.
Remember, the Traveller universe has been subject to at least one
major bout of technological tampering.

The other problem is that even if a sentient race evolved in the dark
depths of a subsurface ocean of an icy world, who would know?  Even if
hundreds of them are discovered, what are their chances of having
meaningful interaction with other races?  I mean, they live buried
under kilometres of ice; not a place many explorers are going to go.

They also probably require thousands of atmospheres of pressure for
survival.  i.e. Passenger fares will be *very* expensive.

That's without the problems of a race evolving sentience under
conditions of very low energy.  They have to live *on* something,
after all.  Even computers need power.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:23:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:23:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012223.DDN00369@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Justin Bunnell asks
>
>What about using stun grenades (flash/bangs?)  Are those 
>useful at all?
>
Flashbangs might be useful depending on the situation.  
People in sealed suits are not going to be affected very 
much.  Probably don't work well in vacuum.

But unsuited people in atmosphere in a confined space like a 
ship's stateroom, ideal.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:25:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:25:51 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
Message-ID: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"MJ Dougherty" says
>
>I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my 
>own air force.
>

Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)

You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles, 
but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up 
with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right 
positions in government for the die hards, it might work.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:30:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:30:45 +1000
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020402083045.E9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Timothy Little writes:
> > 3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
> > planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.

> This one has several things to recommend it, in particular the fact
> that it cripples some of the simplest methods of relativistic
> bombardment.

Actually no, we already know that the *ship* retains its original
velocity through jump.  It is just the motion of the *exit point*
during the time of uncertainty in arrival that I'm talking about.
i.e. You plan to jump to (t,x,y,z) in some coordinate system or other.
You arrive at t+dt, due to uncertainty in jump duration.  What are the
resulting values of x, y, and z?

In fact, option 3 makes relativistic bombardment *much* easier, since
you know the near-c object will always emerge near the planned
position relative to the planet.  Options 1 makes it significantly
harder, but option 2 makes it near-impossible.  Unfortunately, option
2 severely contradicts canon.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:36:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:36:56 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> >I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my
> >own air force.
> >
>
> Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
>
> You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles,
> but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up
> with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right
> positions in government for the die hards, it might work.
>
>

Cool! New Zealand is nice. And it's close to Doug's Penguin Emporium too.

OBTRAV: sell that Free Trader, buy a small land mass, and be your own
fascist dictator.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:37:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:37:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017700663.113.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run 
> on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship 
> from stem to stern.

Not without some means of penetrating the Unobtainium shielding used to make
gas giant refueling survivable.  At TL 17, an antimatter microgrenade would be
handy for area clearing, since the resulting radiation is grossly high
penetration; a microgram of antimatter would produce radiation with cosmic ray
level penetration (half dose at around 6 cm steel) and a dose of around 20,000
rads at 10 meters, despite only having the energy of 4-5 kilos of high
explosive and probably vastly less actual blast because a lot of the energy
escapes the immediate area.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:39:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:39:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

They already have something today that will zoom under your 
car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
even restart).

There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then 
have something like this land at your feet.  You might be 
left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.

Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:42:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:42:57 -0500
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
In-Reply-To: <002401c1d9c3$ac6b2e40$6e9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401170844.027d1130@pop.wizard.net>

MJD said:
>Guess I'm just on a bit of a hair-trigger about all the people wanting me/us
>to "fix" this or that about the Traveller universe, TNE, or GURPS Trav. Fix
>it enough times and it'll be something completely different to what you
>started with. Like my computer...

LOL, mine too.  Yeah, spell checkers that are dumber than human copy 
editors are definitely a pet peeve of mine, also.  And while I applaud the 
very human instinct to tinker with things to make them better, I also 
applaud someone with the judgment to know when to stop.

As far as Trav things that have been improved over time but I'm not so sure 
they should have been, I would like to consider the introduction of the 
task system.  The more time goes by, the more it seems to me that most 
players are most comfortable if they just know what number they have to 
roll higher or lower than, and what the dice modifiers are.  Most people 
don't like to be troubled with Impossible, Difficult, Routine, or other 
arbitrary names.  They just want to know the number.  And it doesn't matter 
how easy you make it to remember the hash table for translating from name 
to number.  It's just human nature.  I realize this assertion is not 
welcomed by a lot of veteran game writers, but I do wonder if the 
designer's instinct to tinker maybe went too far there.

I used to be _much_ more friendly to the idea.  But, age has distilled what 
I see as its essential features to just two things.  If it's a hash table 
that slows things down instead of speeding them up, then do away with 
it.  Saves trouble for everyone all around.

Insofar as introducing a task system also led to written guidelines in the 
rules helping referees know what was considered Impossible, Routine, etc., 
that was a good thing.  As a referee, I like to know what the game designer 
really had in mind for how to apply a particular skill to various 
situations.  I may or may not follow it, but it sure helps keep the game 
flowing to have it already provided, and it helps keep the game universe 
consistent for the referee and players.

Getting down to brass tacks even more, it wasn't really a case of 
"introducing a task system".  It was calling an existing process by the 
name 'task system', and adding some more bits and pieces to how the process 
worked.  Whether called 'task system' or not, you still had the process of 
the player (often with referee assistance, or the referee alone) 
determining degree of success or failure by rolling dice, then comparing 
the result to a rule set that modelled the real-world (or fantasy-world) 
difficulty level of that task as part of the game's design.

I am all for keeping the interface for that task as easy and comfortable as 
possible, consistent with the degree of complexity deemed necessary for the 
rule set.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:40:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:40:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020402083045.E9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017700837.7515.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> Actually no, we already know that the *ship* retains its original
> velocity through jump.  It is just the motion of the *exit point*
> during the time of uncertainty in arrival that I'm talking about.
Ok, yeah, misread what you were talking about.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:43:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:43:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017701001.1051.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> They already have something today that will zoom under your 
> car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
> even restart).
> 
> There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
> a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
> will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
> Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
> go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In fact,
gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing the thing will
short out all of its electronics, not to mention other nearby electronics.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:46:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:46:18 +0100
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401170844.027d1130@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <003101c1d9cf$1c812d50$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> LOL, mine too.  Yeah, spell checkers that are dumber than human copy
> editors are definitely a pet peeve of mine, also.  And while I applaud the
> very human instinct to tinker with things to make them better, I also
> applaud someone with the judgment to know when to stop.

Or at least to wait until the fix is coherent, universal, and final....

>
> As far as Trav things that have been improved over time but I'm not so
sure
> they should have been, I would like to consider the introduction of the
> task system.  The more time goes by, the more it seems to me that most
> players are most comfortable if they just know what number they have to
> roll higher or lower than, and what the dice modifiers are.  Most people
> don't like to be troubled with Impossible, Difficult, Routine, or other
> arbitrary names.  They just want to know the number.  And it doesn't
matter
> how easy you make it to remember the hash table for translating from name
> to number.  It's just human nature.  I realize this assertion is not
> welcomed by a lot of veteran game writers, but I do wonder if the
> designer's instinct to tinker maybe went too far there.

I like the T4 system of target number defined by skill and stat; difficulty
(number of dice) by the referee. It works, it's simple. I can remember it.
And since everything is Formidable in my games, you know you have to roll
3D... (!) It's not the same as the MT task system, but it does the same job
and (for me) it's intuitive.

Complex is not better, not-no-never!

>
> I used to be _much_ more friendly to the idea.  But, age has distilled
what
> I see as its essential features to just two things.  If it's a hash table
> that slows things down instead of speeding them up, then do away with
> it.  Saves trouble for everyone all around.
>
> Insofar as introducing a task system also led to written guidelines in the
> rules helping referees know what was considered Impossible, Routine, etc.,
> that was a good thing.  As a referee, I like to know what the game
designer
> really had in mind for how to apply a particular skill to various
> situations.  I may or may not follow it, but it sure helps keep the game
> flowing to have it already provided, and it helps keep the game universe
> consistent for the referee and players.

Yes. better to understand how this rule relates to reality than to be able
to read seven pages of examples and special cases....

>>
> I am all for keeping the interface for that task as easy and comfortable
as
> possible, consistent with the degree of complexity deemed necessary for
the
> rule set.
>
>

Being a Rules-Dumbass, I have to agree....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:47:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:47:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8CE2395.33F89%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 2:39 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> They already have something today that will zoom under your
> car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
> even restart).
> 
> There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
> a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
> will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
> Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
> go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).
> 
> It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
> have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
> left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.
> 
> Shades of Team Fortress Classic.

Isn't that why Military gear uses GaAs semiconductors?  IIRC, these are more
resistant to EMP (and more expensive too).  One would hope that all military
gear would be proof against this.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:48:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:48:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701001.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE23CA.33F8A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 2:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In fact,
> gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing the thing will
> short out all of its electronics, not to mention other nearby electronics.

What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:52:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:52:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
Message-ID: <200204012252.DDN03437@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>If it's a hash table that slows things down instead of 
>speeding them up, then do away with 
>it.  Saves trouble for everyone all around.
>

The problem I have with making corrections/changes/etc to the 
combat system of CT/Book 4 is that it is *very* easy to walk 
off the Cliffs of Complexity.

I am trying to avoid using tables, except a few during 
character generation to come up with your initiative and your 
actions.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:54:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:54:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701001.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020401225400.55216.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

Hmm, I wonder if battle dress uses fiber optics? 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:55:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:55:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012255.DDN03784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?
>
A very, very distinct EM signal.  I'm sure that a simple RF 
detector would be very cheap.

Imagine that on Regina, there are RF DF units on most tall 
buildings.  

Now, anyone cuts loose with a gauss or railgun (and if we 
listen for special capacitor discharges, any laser) and we 
know within a small area where and what type weapon was fired.

The law level is already a bit high there.  I could see it 
happenning.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:54:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:54:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401170844.027d1130@pop.wizard.net> <003101c1d9cf$1c812d50$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CA8E542.8E4259DC@premier.net>


MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> I like the T4 system of target number defined by skill and stat; difficulty
> (number of dice) by the referee. It works, it's simple. I can remember it.
> And since everything is Formidable in my games, you know you have to roll
> 3D... (!) It's not the same as the MT task system, but it does the same job
> and (for me) it's intuitive.

The way my referee handles many tasks, you start at Average; if you
succeed, you work your way up the chart until you fail.  The highest
level at which you succeeded determines the degree of success.  Forex, a
Tactics roll made at Average would enable a leader to form a workable
plan to carry out a given mission.  The same Tactics roll successfully
made at Average, Difficult and Formidable levels would allow that same
leader to create a plan that took the enemy by complete surprise and
caused the foe to surrender after only token resistance.
> 
> Complex is not better, not-no-never!

All depends on where the complexity is and how much it adds to the
gaming experience.  This is, of course, a situation in which _everone's_
mileage is likely to vary....

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:56:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:56:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE23CA.33F8A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017701795.5627.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 4/1/02 2:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> > 
> > Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In
> > fact, gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing
> > the thing will short out all of its electronics, not to mention other
> > nearby electronics. 
> 
> What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?

Presumably, one strong, sharp pulse lasting roughly the length of time it takes
for a bullet to go the length of the barrel.  Not immediately inclined to
figure out the total emitted energy, but I rather doubt that it's small.

Also, gauss weapon != railgun.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:06:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701795.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE27DC.33FBE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 2:56 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> 
> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.
> 

Yes.  According to Book 4, a gauss rifle seems more like a coil gun.  But is
there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  Railguns seem much
simpler for such an application.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:06:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:06:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012255.DDN03784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017702412.3010.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> Now, anyone cuts loose with a gauss or railgun (and if we 
> listen for special capacitor discharges, any laser) and we 
> know within a small area where and what type weapon was fired.

Fusion and plasma weapons will be plenty visible too.  You'll need to
triangulate from multiple sensors, of course, since it's long-wave and won't
give good directional information.

All the more reason to use a good old-fashioned chemical weapon (of course,
bullet noise detectors exist too).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:12:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012312.DDN05750@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>But is there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  
>Railguns seem much simpler for such an application.
>--

I've seen photos of a .45 caliber fully automatic coilgun 
from the WW II era (never more than an experiment).  The gun 
could operate off of vehicle power, and fired at pistol 
velocities and around 600 rounds per minute.

I saw this in the back of Popular Science not too far back 
(well, not all the way back to my childhood).

Would that be considered a "firearm" or even a "machinegun"?  
It looks like something that could be run off the same outlet 
as your washer/dryer.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:15:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:15:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE27DC.33FBE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017702953.7419.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> 
> Yes.  According to Book 4, a gauss rifle seems more like a coil gun.  But
> is there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  Railguns seem much
> simpler for such an application.

Shush.  We're talking canon, not reality.  As far as I can tell fusion and
plasma weapons are stupid ideas too, but canonical ;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:16:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:16:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017702412.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE2A4A.33FED%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 3:06 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> Fusion and plasma weapons will be plenty visible too.  You'll need to
> triangulate from multiple sensors, of course, since it's long-wave and won't
> give good directional information.

Won't you be able to get adequate info from start of pulse and two sensors?
why should wavelength matter, except in regard to the detection antenna.
RDF relies on signal strength.
> 
> All the more reason to use a good old-fashioned chemical weapon (of course,
> bullet noise detectors exist too).

Noise detectors can be fooled by sound suppressors and reflected noise.
Most bullet noise is from the ballistic crack anyway.  There is millimeter
wave radar in use that does a fine job detecting bullets and calculating
back trajectories,  Of course this does get tricky when there's a few
thousand projectiles going hither and yon.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:17:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:17:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Coilgun, or Everyone Go Out And Build A Gauss Rifle
Message-ID: <200204012317.DDO00214@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.oz.net/~coilgun/home.htm

Stone knives and bearskins.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:25:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:25:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIEFADIAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

Really?  Why dont the cops use them for those highway chases then?
Something that kills the engine would be real handy there...

>>They already have something today that will zoom under your
>>car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
>>even restart).


Justin

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:40 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] handy device


They already have something today that will zoom under your
car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
even restart).

There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.

Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



_________________________________________________________

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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:26:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:26:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE2A4A.33FED%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017703573.6212.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 4/1/02 3:06 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> > Fusion and plasma weapons will be plenty visible too.  You'll need to
> > triangulate from multiple sensors, of course, since it's long-wave and
> > won't give good directional information.
> 
> Won't you be able to get adequate info from start of pulse and two sensors?

You'll need at least three to be certain.  In any case, using two sensors is
triangulation.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:31:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:31:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401181557.00a8b2e0@pop.wizard.net>

JT Kwon wrote:
>And the Army sums all of that up in "always consider METT-T
>when making decisions".
Yes, exactly.  Just rephrasing Sun Tzu, really.

>The scale I'm thinking about is the typical Traveller party.
>They don't have enough bodies to do it right, on the
>average.  So they'll be throwing grenades.  But the soldiers
>who are fighting against a party might just rush in like this.
Aha.  I wasn't really thinking in that context.  Agreed, that they very 
well might.  My response to the starship-theft scenario was to decide that 
any decent-sized starport (in the Imperium) is going to have its own SWAT 
team.  So it might be the SWAT team who is assaulting.

>I'm not sure that you could move that quickly under zero-g
>conditions.
An excellent point.  You could launch yourself along a vector by pushing 
off a wall, etc. but you might have a tough time getting three or four 
people to burst into a room while staying close enough to touch each other, 
then split off into different directions as soon as each one just barely 
got inside the door frame.

Should make Zero-G Combat a desirable skill.  A skilled person would 
probably be able to bounce off the door frame as they enter and move 
practically parallel to the interior wall.  A little like getting skilled 
on a trampoline.

>I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run
>on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship
>from stem to stern.  Arguably, orders are going to tell a
>military unit to use the least level of violence necessary to
>take your ship, but if you successfully resisted one boarding
>attempt, and they wanted the ship, they could just give you
>all the "treatment" and board after everyone dies of
>radiation.

Good idea, but only when you don't care about trashing the rather expensive 
ship.  Hmm, if you have particle accelerators with relatively low power 
settings, then maybe you have meson guns and the luxury of being able to 
target them very finely.  Use neural activity sensors for targeting.  How's 
_that_ for a science fiction scene?  Arthur C. Clarke himself, sitting in 
the interior, wouldn't be able to distinguish it from magic as hostage 
takers in the cabin with him suddenly have large chunks of their bodies 
just disappear, with a release of some heat.

If it's a SWAT type situation, I think most SWATs would have robots 
somewhat smaller than humans, and would use breaching charges to crack open 
hatches or portholes and then insert the bots.  The bots wouldn't so much 
be fighting bots as exploratory scout bots.  Also explosive bots and 
gas-releasing bots.  Let's see, using neural activity sensors from outside 
the hull, you should be able to breach almost directly into the hull where 
the targets are.  They might also try to breach the hull where they can cut 
off power to the internal grav grid, or try to seize control of the 
internal grav grid.  Similarly, breaching the hull to open the interior to 
raw vacuum might be useful if the targets don't all have proper suits.  In 
general, you'd like to avoid breaching the hull, because that damage is 
more difficult to repair and make the ship spaceworthy again.  Breaching 
hatches and portholes is better.  IMTU.  YMMV.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:29:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:29:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012329.DDP00854@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Justin Bunnell" says
>
>Really?  Why dont the cops use them for those highway chases 
>then? Something that kills the engine would be real handy 
>there...
>

that's who it's marketed to.  It's a little flat rocket 
powered car that's about 1 foot x 2 foot.  It drops from 
under the chase car, zooms forward, and is guided under the 
target car.

I think that the EMP part works fine.  It's probably not very 
good on even slightly bad pavement, and you have to get it 
under the target vehicle.

I hear they have the same sort of thing for roadblocks, 
except that the target vehicle drives over the EMP device.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:39:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:39:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017700663.113.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401183213.00a8a050@pop.wizard.net>

Anthony Jackson quoted and wrote:
>John T. Kwon writes:
>
> > I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run
> > on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship
> > from stem to stern.
>
>Not without some means of penetrating the Unobtainium shielding used to make
>gas giant refueling survivable.

I had a similar thought about the unobtainium.  I think what John had in 
mind was toasting up the unobtainium just enough to cause it to throw all 
kinds of nasty radiation from the unobtainium hull itself.  Not crack the 
ship open, just induce severe radiation sickness in its inhabitants.

Depending on the properties of the unobtainium (crystaliron, bonded 
superdense, whatever) the ship may or may not become safe for human 
habitation in the next decade or more.  And of course, maybe the TL 15 
wizards can shoot another ray gun at the hull to make it stop being 
radioactive again.  Wouldn't that be handy?  Hmm, also handy for 
battlefield cleanup in all too many situations.  I could never figure out 
why the Traveller universe isn't _much_ more littered with radioactive 
wastelands than canon indicates.  Now if someone can just come up with an 
acceptable hand wave for the ray gun.  (Does anyone else remember the 
ionization denebulizer guns for kids?)

Neither materials science nor particle physics are my fields (obviously), 
but I think the gist of what I'm saying works anyway.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:37:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] F15D Scorpion Recon Fighter TL 11
References: <3CA80B0E.6302.4EB743@localhost>
Message-ID: <005701c1d9d6$22597000$a5d0f6d1@customer>

I can't read whatever format your designs are in.  Do you have a HMTL or
Text version.

John Scarlett

----- Original Message -----
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 8:23 AM
Subject: [TML] F15D Scorpion Recon Fighter TL 11


> A Recon fighter design for the Consort and Kiev, Thanks for the
Inspiration Anthony
>
>
>


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----


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> you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
>
>    ---- File information -----------
>      File:  F15C Scorpion 15T Fighter TL11.gtv
>      Date:  1 Apr 2002, 7:16
>      Size:  6244 bytes.
>      Type:  Unknown
>


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> prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
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> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
>
>    ---- File information -----------
>      File:  F15D Scorpion 15T Recon Fighter TL11.gtv
>      Date:  1 Apr 2002, 7:21
>      Size:  5184 bytes.
>      Type:  Unknown
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:43:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:43:22 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
>And no frags!

Looking down pitifully at very large frag grenade with it's pin pulled and 
spoon just about to be released...

"Awwwww.  But Sa-arge?" comes the whine.

Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable sleeves and even 
the explosive charge can pull apart into three separate and working 
charges.  You can make your grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need it 
to be, pretty much.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:42:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:42:52 +0100
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
References: <200204012252.DDN03437@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003801c1d9d7$03a278e0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> 
> The problem I have with making corrections/changes/etc to the 
> combat system of CT/Book 4 is that it is *very* easy to walk 
> off the Cliffs of Complexity.
> 
> I am trying to avoid using tables, except a few during 
> character generation to come up with your initiative and your 
> actions.
>

Wise. Very Wise.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:45:02 +0100
Subject: [TML] room clearing
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <003f01c1d9d7$50c1d1c0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable sleeves and even
> the explosive charge can pull apart into three separate and working
> charges.  You can make your grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need
it
> to be, pretty much.
>
That sounds like something that troopers would break.
As in "if you leave three soldiers in the desert with an anvil, and come
back later, the anvil will be broken. And they won't know how it happened."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:47:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:47:19 -0800
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DB@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

You might want to try to find a copy of Yachts International Magazine.  Fodder for those dreams ;)

Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: laning [mailto:laning@wizard.net]
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 1:44 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)


Living on an airplane would not be fun.  All that loud buzzing.  And the 
bad air.  Yuck.

My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.

I like to throw in people living out the Traveller version of this dream 
wandering from planet to planet, living on their converted merchant.  The 
more oft-encountered version of people living an imitation of this dream is 
the crew of a merchant that is family, or like a family together.  They 
still need to hustle for the credits to pay off the bank, keep the ship 
fuelled and maintained, etc.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:50:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:50:33 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <001f01c1d9c8$14f2af20$629193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com>
 <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net>

I wrote:
> > My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a
> > twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.
> >
MJD responded:
>I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air force.

I want the yacht because it makes it a lot easier to travel to and visit 
all the places I want to see.  I've seen Greece for all of ten days, and 
that certainly isn't enough.  Just for starters.  Most of the world's 
population lives within twenty miles of navigable water I have read more 
than once, so it should make life convenient.

And yes, San Diego would be high on my list of places to spend some anchor 
time.  My friend went on an Alaskan coastline cruise in her yacht last year 
and loved it; it's the other direction but you may want to think about 
it.  Don't forget to watch John Sayles' movie 'Limbo' before you go.  :->

ObTrav:  Just where in the Spinward Marches would be the popular 
destinations for pleasure travellers with the means?  Would there be 
anything seasonal to the travel patterns?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:52:04 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185058.00a65e80@pop.wizard.net>

JT Kwon wrote:
>Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
>
>You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles,
>but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up
>with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right
>positions in government for the die hards, it might work.

The worst part is it's probably the New Zealanders on the list who are 
laughing the hardest at that.  :->

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:50:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:50:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012350.DDP03311@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable 
>sleeves and even the explosive charge can pull apart into 
>three separate and working charges.  You can make your 
>grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need it 
>to be, pretty much.
>
I've seen a modern German grenade that has a removable sleeve 
for frag/no frag.  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:51:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:51:46 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> > >
> MJD responded:
> >I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air
force.
>
> I want the yacht because it makes it a lot easier to travel to and visit
> all the places I want to see.  I've seen Greece for all of ten days, and
> that certainly isn't enough.  Just for starters.  Most of the world's
> population lives within twenty miles of navigable water I have read more
> than once, so it should make life convenient.
>

Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are
very handy for burglars...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:56:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:56:53 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>

MJD wrote:
>OBTRAV: sell that Free Trader, buy a small land mass, and be your own
>fascist dictator.

Which is sort of the the piracy issue brought up earlier.  If you can skip 
on your ship's mortage, or steal a ship, or pirate a ship just _one_ time 
in your life and sell the ship, then a lot of people would.  And in fact 
buy their own island somewhere.  Or live on the Spruce Goose or whatever 
their dream is.

Knowing most player characters as we do, it's no wonder so few referees 
like to let their PCs get possession of a ship, any ship.  Me?  I'd like to 
give players ships, I really would.  But what they'll do with the ill 
gotten booty from selling it terrifies me.

This has driven me to tinker with starship costs quite a lot, trying to 
reduce their value by orders of magnitude.  I still haven't found a 
solution that seems properly balanced.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:54:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:54:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
making MY windows rattle.

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:40 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] handy device


They already have something today that will zoom under your 
car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
even restart).

There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then 
have something like this land at your feet.  You might be 
left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.

Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:55:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:55:23 -0600
Subject: Soldiers Breaking Things (was: Re: [TML] room clearing)
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net> <003f01c1d9d7$50c1d1c0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CA8F36B.AD819CDD@premier.net>


MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
> > Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable sleeves and even
> > the explosive charge can pull apart into three separate and working
> > charges.  You can make your grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need
> it
> > to be, pretty much.
> >
> That sounds like something that troopers would break.
> As in "if you leave three soldiers in the desert with an anvil, and come
> back later, the anvil will be broken. And they won't know how it happened."

Reminds me of a comic strip in _The Paraglide_ (the Ft. Bragg post
newspaper) a number of years ago.  This particular edition of "G.I.
Bill" was on "The Thought Processes of a Private," which were broken
down into the following steps (this is from memory, but it should be
mostly accurate):

1.  Private hears question from sergeant ("How could you lose a 2 1/2
ton truck?!?")
2.  Ears send question to brain.
3.  Brain, not wanting to deal with question, sends question to stomach.
4.  Stomach mishears question as "What was that stuff they served for
lunch today in the chow hall?"
5.  Stomach sends answer to question to mouth.
6.  Mouth responds, "I don't know, Sergeant!"

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:58:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:58:20 EST
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
Message-ID: <193.4c190af.29da4e1c@aol.com>

--part1_193.4c190af.29da4e1c_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 02/04/02 00:53:39 GMT Daylight Time, 
martinjd@globalnet.co.uk writes:


> Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are
> very handy for burglars...
> 

I'm sure they are - think of the damage the little rascal could do when he 
got them home.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_193.4c190af.29da4e1c_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 00:53:39 GMT Daylight Time, martinjd@globalnet.co.uk writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are<BR>
very handy for burglars...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I'm sure they are - think of the damage the little rascal could do when he got them home.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_193.4c190af.29da4e1c_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:59:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:59:06 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017702953.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE344A.3401B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 3:15 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

>> Yes.  According to Book 4, a gauss rifle seems more like a coil gun.  But
>> is there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  Railguns seem much
>> simpler for such an application.
> 
> Shush.  We're talking canon, not reality.  As far as I can tell fusion and
> plasma weapons are stupid ideas too, but canonical ;)

I like railguns.  I like the idea of a gauss weapon with a muzzle blast and
noise.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:02:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:02:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE344A.3401B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017705741.4086.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> > Shush.  We're talking canon, not reality.  As far as I can tell fusion
> > and plasma weapons are stupid ideas too, but canonical ;)
> 
> I like railguns.  I like the idea of a gauss weapon with a muzzle blast and
> noise.

Why would a railgun produce either?  Aside from the sabot being ejected, and
the crack of the bullet, that is, and both would apply to coilguns too.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:07:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:07:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012350.DDP03311@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8CE3646.34024%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 3:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> laning says
>> 
>> Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable
>> sleeves and even the explosive charge can pull apart into
>> three separate and working charges.  You can make your
>> grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need it
>> to be, pretty much.
>> 
> I've seen a modern German grenade that has a removable sleeve
> for frag/no frag.

So called offensive/defensive or polyvalent grenades. There are a whole slew
of them.

I suspect you're thinking of the DM 51.  There's a removable plastic body
element containing steel shot that fits around an HE core and fuse.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:13:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:13:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204011749.DDD03964@vmms1.verisignmail.com> from "John T. Kwon" at Apr 01, 2002 12:49:19 PM
Message-ID: <200204020013.g320DTU02643@localhost.uia.net>

> I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
> effects when you modify Planck's constant.

Not talking about modifying Planck's constant. Only talking about
modifying inertia. Tim introduced the idea of modifying Planck's
constant as a device to keep strangeness from happening when
inertia is modified, but I'm not 100% sure that inertial suppression
would necessarily result in strangeness in the first place. Trying
to get some thoughts on the matter.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:22:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:22:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017705741.4086.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE39B4.34031%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 4:02 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
>> I like railguns.  I like the idea of a gauss weapon with a muzzle blast and
>> noise.
> 
> Why would a railgun produce either?  Aside from the sabot being ejected, and
> the crack of the bullet, that is, and both would apply to coilguns too.

Well, unless you are in vacuum, you get incandescent gas from the arc and
plasma.  See the photos of some real railguns at
http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons/tech/rail.html

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:32:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:32:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE39B4.34031%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017707545.2749.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:

> Well, unless you are in vacuum, you get incandescent gas from the arc and
> plasma.  See the photos of some real railguns at
> http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons/tech/rail.html

Hm...ideally you'd avoid arcing in the first place, since it's not at all
necessary for accelerating the round.  I guess some arcing is unavoidable,
though.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:05:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 20:05:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] I need to run a real life battle
In-Reply-To: <20020329.215011.-23887.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHEEPFCFAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

Do I get to use my shotgun?

-SRS-

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
> generalturokan@juno.com
> Sent: Saturday, 30 March, 2002 00:50
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] I need to run a real life battle
> 
> 
> Thank you TML
> 
> On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 17:48:18 -0800 generalturokan@juno.com writes:
> > 
> > Are there any volunteers?
> 
> I wish to thank all those who've responded off-line to my request.
> 
> Thanks a lot.
> 
> I wont need anyone else to volunteer.
> 
> 
> Gen. Turokan
> 
> 
> -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..       ..   ...       --   -.-- 
>     ...   .-   ...-   ..   ---   .-.   --..--      
>  ..       .-..   ---   ...-  .       .---   .   ...   ..-   ...      
> -.-.   ....   .-.   ..   ...   -       .--  ..   -   ....       
> .-   .-..   .-..       --   -.--       ....   .   .-  .-.   -   .-.-.-
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:10:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:10:19 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>

One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at
doorlocks etc...

How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior is
exposed to Vacuum?

Not many...

Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by
being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a recording
being played over radio)

I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices
relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad ID
number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the
card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you
have access to your account.

After all, you want security to stop casual access to secure areas, but not
so secure that it inhibits routine or emergency access.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:17:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:17:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>

Matthew Bond writes:
> One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's
> at doorlocks etc...
> 
> How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior
> is exposed to Vacuum?

How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use? 
There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
'security while everyone is away'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:22:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:22:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Accents and Bonuses
Message-ID: <gu1iau87ahojttup95thnjogcis4ps6ijl@4ax.com>

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 08:11:19 -0800 (PST), Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:

>ObTrav: A ship crewed by Orthodox Jews sets up so they will spend Passover 
>in jump.  They misjump, and come out of jump way early, on a course to hit 
>something large and fatal.  Your characters are passengers on said 
>ship..  Much fun happens.

Actually, _any_ of the rules can be broken if the alternative is one's own
death.  Including the Sabbath, and eating treyf.



--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:23:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:23:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Pinging the list
Message-ID: <tv1iauc8kg0u7pr0a2985fcfqb69fevomj@4ax.com>

Checking some odd behavior of my mail client and/or ISP.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:40:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:40:01 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <00c801c1d9e7$4e129d00$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?


> Matthew Bond writes:
> > One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint
ID's
> > at doorlocks etc...
> >
> > How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> > Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the
interior
> > is exposed to Vacuum?
>
> How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use?
> There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
> 'security while everyone is away'.

On any passenger carrying vessel, I would expect several areas to be Locked
routinely... Bridge, Cargo, Engineering, etc.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:45:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:45:41 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <00d401c1d9e8$18f2f420$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?


> Matthew Bond writes:
> > One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint
ID's
> > at doorlocks etc...
> >
> > How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> > Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the
interior
> > is exposed to Vacuum?
>
> How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use?
> There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
> 'security while everyone is away'.

And what happens if battle damage (or a micrometeoroid impact) has cause the
hull to become depressurised, while simultaneously causing a computer glitch
to activate the Locks used while in Dock...

If there is any chance that the lockable area needs to be accessed in vacuum
conditions, then I for one want a locking mechanism that doesn't require me
to expose any part of my body to vacuum.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:50:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:50:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1d9e8$18f2f420$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>

Matthew Bond writes:

> And what happens if battle damage (or a micrometeoroid impact) has cause
> the hull to become depressurised, while simultaneously causing a computer
> glitch to activate the Locks used while in Dock...

Well, odds are the lock won't work at all then.  Plus, who says you're going to
put a thumbprint lock on the _inside_ of the lock?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:03:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:03:55 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <20020401200104.BCEA627A48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c1d9e9$a2218e40$f6b18b90@computer>

> From: laning
> Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no
> scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the
> fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world
> in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL 13
> COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much less
> likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.

One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:56:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:56:24 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer>

> From: "MJ Dougherty"
> Cool! New Zealand is nice. And it's close to Doug's Penguin Emporium too.

Sadly, somebody already owns New Zealand.  It's just not considered polite
to talk about it.  The same applies to Papua New Guinea, East Timor, and a
bunch of other countries.

> OBTRAV: sell that Free Trader, buy a small land mass, and be your own
> fascist dictator.

That's my favourite kind of game these days.  I've got to the point where
starships barely appear any more.

"Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got a
harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a fusion
reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own army.
What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania thinks he
has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us independent
enclaves to make sure he doesn't."

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:57:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:57:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <003d01c1d9e9$a2218e40$f6b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017712657.2060.ajackson@ping>

Alan Bradley writes:
> > From: laning
> > Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no
> > scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the
> > fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world
> > in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL
> > 13 COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much
> > less likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.
> 
> One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?

Um...most likely something he's not supposed to be doing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 02:01:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:01:13 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017712657.2060.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CA910E9.25637C99@premier.net>


Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Alan Bradley writes:

<<snip>>
> >
> > One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?
> 
> Um...most likely something he's not supposed to be doing?

Pining for the fjords?  (Or, for GT players, pining for the fnords.)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 02:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 03:08:08 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?


> Matthew Bond writes:
>
> > And what happens if battle damage (or a micrometeoroid impact) has cause
> > the hull to become depressurised, while simultaneously causing a
computer
> > glitch to activate the Locks used while in Dock...
>
> Well, odds are the lock won't work at all then.  Plus, who says you're
going to
> put a thumbprint lock on the _inside_ of the lock?

Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:07:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:07:17 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com> <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane>

Alan tells us:
> "Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got a
> harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
> schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a fusion
> reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own army.
> What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania thinks he
> has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us independent
> enclaves to make sure he doesn't."

Yeah, I know what you mean.  That seems to be the way my Traveller game is
gravitating.

I suppose it's the eternal hazard of lavishing too much detail on the worlds
your PCs visit:  They start getting these crazy notions of settling down and
setting up shop!  While I enjoy exploring the "going native" part of the
game, it's also unbelievably frustrating at times.

I really don't want to allow this kind of behaviour.  Maybe it's because I'm
afraid of commitment. Uhm.. To a single world, that is.  Or simply that I
just can't let go of the "traveling" aspect of Traveller.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Proponent of Planetary Polygamy
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 02:25:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:55:47 +0930 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
In-Reply-To: <200204011651.DDB04154@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204021153350.24002-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi John:

On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> I like to have robots, but there's a certain tedium to Book
> 8.  So far, I've resorted to just "saying" that a robot is a
> certain way.  I don't really like the Star Wars robots, but
> there is a certain edge to the robots as presented in AI
> (where they are "nearly" like us, but still imperfect).
>
> How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?

 Been way to long since I looked at Book 8. As for bots in my game world.
U used some ideas from a Challange article on Shadowrun and images  for my
mind from the High Colonies game  Mainly now besides sercant bots on
tracks or wheels. The others encountered are "pig iron" Secutrity type
that are armed.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:16:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:16:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204020316.DDW00039@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bulkhead Doors

Bulkhead doors can be either a retracting door or an iris 
valve.  Which one is more common depends on YTU.  In canon, 
they are iris valves.

All bulkhead doors have a basic mechanical mechanism, which 
can be operated in a powered or non-powered mode.

All bulkhead doors have an mechanical lock which has a 
powered assist.

All bulkhead doors have a pressure indicator, both a powered 
indicator and a manual pin.  If there is vacuum on the other 
side, and air on your side, the pin slot shows a depression.  
If you are in vacuum and there is pressure on the other side, 
the pin sticks out.  If the pressure is equal, the pin is 
level with the surface.  Some ships, military and scoutships 
in particular, will also have fire and radiation sensors at 
every bulkhead door.

In an emergency, the door can be unlocked manually and 
operated manually. The manual lock requires a key, which all 
ship's personnel carry.  It is rather large, and easy to 
handle with gloved hands.  Usually, all keys are the same, 
except for keys leading to the bridge and engineering, which 
are both different by custom.

On military ships, all keys are kept in cases near each 
door.  For special secure areas, the keys are under Marine 
guard.

If the door still has power, and the key is used to operate 
the door, an alarm will sound in that section and on the 
bridge.

For more convenience, bulkhead doors are usually used in 
powered mode.  There is a sensor pad next to the door, which 
can detect a keycard within 10cm.  If the keycard is valid, 
the buttons which operate the door are enabled: there are two 
buttons which change color by status:  lock/unlock and 
open/close.  There is a convenience pocket in vacc suit 
sleeves (right and left) into which a crewman usually has a 
keycard.  The pocket is closed with velcro.

Airlocks

Airlocks have two bulkhead doors: inner and outer.  The 
airlock is equipped with pressure sensors inside and outside 
the airlock (including inside the ship).  There are 
additional controls in the airlock which also respond to the 
keys which are used to control the pressure in the airlock 
itself.  Scout ships usually have a more exotic external 
atmosphere sensor, which can also be monitored from the 
bridge. At least one door on passenger ships has a weapons 
detector and explosives/powercell sniffer.

Even if the ship is on the ground, and there is breathable 
air, if you open the inner door, the airlock chamber has 
warning lights that come on.  If there is vacuum outside and 
atmosphere inside, a warning will sound in that section and 
on the bridge.  Once you close the inner door, you can open 
the outer door.  In order to open both doors at once, it 
requires that you manually operate the doors -- this cannot 
be done using the electronic controls.

Now, as for securing the ship against theft while on the 
ground:

The ship's computer operates in a different mode when landed 
or docked, as opposed to under way.  Once the ship's computer 
is not in "under way" mode, a specific crewman's sensor key 
and password is required to change the mode.  Logon to ship's 
computers is a combination of the sensor key and a password.

If you can't log on and don't have permission to change the 
mode, you can't operate the engines, sensors, weapons, etc.

Additionally, the ship, while not "under way", will sound an 
alarm if one of the airlock or cargo bay doors is opened 
manually or forced.  This alarm can be sent to a 
predesignated communicator (the captain's, for instance).  
This alarm can be set through the ship's computer for any 
door.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:49:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:49:00 -0500
Subject: [TML] does that make me an apostate?
In-Reply-To: <200204011656.DDB04760@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401224644.00cdd1a8@192.168.0.1>

At 11:56 AM 4/1/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>As I've gotten older, I've just gotten to doing some
>equipment by "it's about this long, about this heavy, etc.."
>I've done the same thing with NPCs.
>Sometimes FFS drives me nuts.
>I seem to be able to write about some things better if I just
>say things are "just so".
>After all, can anyone out there take any of the robot design
>sequences and come up with Gigolo Joe?

Once the Tech level get's high enough, it would be easier to make a 'bio-bot'
Mostly human tissue grown in a vat and a programmed brain.  GURPs Robots 
would be my choice for design.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:52:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <3CA8C9D6.9000605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200203312207.DBP01462@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401224917.01b08448@192.168.0.1>

At 01:57 PM 4/1/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>John T. Kwon wrote:
>>The only problem I have with the new room clearing technique is that if 
>>people are expecting you, then all they need is a long burst fire (belt 
>>fed) to keep you out of the room.
>>The new technique involves a team of 4 flowing into the room and moving 
>>left or right as they flow in and occupy corners of the room by flowing 
>>along the walls.
>>Might make an interesting scenario to game out using ACQ.
>>If the people flowing into the room have more actions per combat round 
>>than the people occupying the room, it might work.
>>The use of grenades is now an exception in room clearing.  I do remember 
>>throwing a simulator into a closet in MOUT training, and being declared a 
>>casualty.  Maybe they have something there.
>I wonder how this compares, to, say, standard SWAT protocol for the same. 
>They make extensive use of flashbangs (Presumably the 'stun grenade' 
>mentioned in the link.

Flash bangs are also quite dangerous in confined spaces.  The big 
difference between that and fragmentation grenade is lack of fragmentation 
in the Flashbang.  You still have about the same amount of explosive material.

>Presumably they are less likely to encounter return fire than soldiers 
>clearing a room in a battle, but there's also the rather tricky (and now, 
>all too common) mingling of non-combatants and combatants in today's battles.
>Mis-calculate where enemy fire is coming from in a large building, and you 
>could burst into the room next door, filled with refugees instead of bad guys.
>All I can say is I DON'T want to be the poor sucker taking that #1 position.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!
Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:51:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:51:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
References: <200204011651.DDB04154@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA92ABA.54139D45@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?

I use book 8 and 101 Robots. My players currently use a batch of
obsolete TL 12 (MT) floor models including a traderbot, engineeringbot,
valetbot, medibot, constructionbot and agrobot. They take a perverse
delight in using the agrobot to take care of livestock for the vargar
steward to eat. As the TL goes up they become more "sophantlike" until
TL16 they begin to have personalities.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I eat babies. I drink pee. I must be French!, French!, French!
                  -Nathan Lane & Chris Katein



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:56:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:56:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE2395.33F89%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401225457.01da10b0@192.168.0.1>

At 02:47 PM 4/1/2002 -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 4/1/02 2:39 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> > They already have something today that will zoom under your
> > car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
> > even restart).
> > There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
> > a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
> > will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
> > Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
> > go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).
> > It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
> > have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
> > left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.
> > Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
>Isn't that why Military gear uses GaAs semiconductors?  IIRC, these are more
>resistant to EMP (and more expensive too).  One would hope that all military
>gear would be proof against this.

Extensive shielding and redundancy are parts of my handwaves on why 
Traveller computers are so darn big.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:58:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 21:58:01 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane>
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com> <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer> <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <ojaiaukds95jfm1e8hbvvfhdk7e51bpoec@4ax.com>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:07:17 +1000, "Shane Slamet"
<s.slamet@bom.gov.au> wrote:

>Alan tells us:
>> "Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got =
a
>> harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
>> schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a =
fusion
>> reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own =
army.
>> What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania =
thinks he
>> has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us =
independent
>> enclaves to make sure he doesn't."
>
>Yeah, I know what you mean.  That seems to be the way my Traveller game =
is
>gravitating.
>
>I suppose it's the eternal hazard of lavishing too much detail on the =
worlds
>your PCs visit:  They start getting these crazy notions of settling down=
 and
>setting up shop!  While I enjoy exploring the "going native" part of the
>game, it's also unbelievably frustrating at times.
>
>I really don't want to allow this kind of behaviour.  Maybe it's because=
 I'm
>afraid of commitment. Uhm.. To a single world, that is.  Or simply that =
I
>just can't let go of the "traveling" aspect of Traveller.

This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
(or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.

=46rom a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become part
of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:15:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:15:14 -0600
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
References: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping> <20020402083045.E9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CA93052.B595C25F@pobox.com>

Timothy Little wrote:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
> > Timothy Little writes:

>>As far as I can see, there are three main contenders for how the jump
exit point moves:...

> > > 3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
> > > planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.
> > This one has several things to recommend it, in particular the fact
> > that it cripples some of the simplest methods of relativistic
> > bombardment.
> Actually no, we already know that the *ship* retains its original
> velocity through jump.  ...
> In fact, option 3 makes relativistic bombardment *much* easier, since
> you know the near-c object will always emerge near the planned
> position relative to the planet.

I vote for option 3, although it does contribute to the near-C rock dilemma.
I have used it IMTU with a slight twist...the 'direction' of the ship's vector
on arrival is also relative to the body with the greatest gravitational field,
i.e. the planet.  So if you accelerate out from the planet and jump, you
arrive still heading away from the planet.

Under this model. it makes sense for merchants (and others) to jump with zero
velocity (relative to the planet).  It also means that anything which comes
out of jump with an inward vector (comes in 'hot') had to work hard to do
that, by travelling past the jump point, and then turning around and
accelerating back inward before jump.  Since most of the reasons for wanting
to do this are military in nature, system defenses are very hostile to ships
which come in 'hot'.

I deal with near-C rocks in another way, which I will post in a separate
thread so that all present can shoot holes in it ;-).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:11:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:11:40 -0600
Subject: [TML] Another Power Source For FF&S2?
Message-ID: <3CA92F7C.B45F42C3@premier.net>

Herewith my First of April contribution to the TML.  Enjoy!

While getting caught up on the Temple ov thee Lemur Web site, I noticed
that they had an article about a potato-powered Web server.  The FAQ, in
response to the question "How much energy can you get out of a potato?",
answered thusly:

"Again, this varies considerably. Using the zinc/copper electrodes that
we have at present, we get a voltage of about 0.8V (+-0.1V) and a
maximum sustainable currrent of about 15mA. We can draw this current for
about 15 hours before we notice an appreciable drop, so a back of an
envelope calculation of total useful energy would be in the region of
650J."

http://totl.net/FAQ/features/spud/

Should we add chemoelectric potatoes as a power plant option in FF&S2?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:02:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:02:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017702412.3010.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204012255.DDN03784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401195939.009fdcd0@mindspring.com>

At 03:06 PM 4/1/02 -0800, you wrote:
>All the more reason to use a good old-fashioned chemical weapon (of course,
>bullet noise detectors exist too).

But sound echoes..

Yesterday, being Easter, Colma's cemetaries were filled with Chinese 
families paying their respects to their ancestors.  This involves 
firecrackers.  Lots of firecrakers.

There are 45,000 bodies in Colma, close to half of them Chinese.  The town 
sits in a valley, and is *filled* with marble sound reflectors.

It sounded like a bloody battalion-sized firefight.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:14:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:14:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>

At 12:41 PM 4/1/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Unfortunately, the further I went the more I discovered
>that the two were completely incompatible. CT worldgen
>(including the extended system in Book 6) simply breaks
>the laws of physics. Repeatedly. In ways that are very
>hard to gloss over.

LOL!  Very true, very true...


>My response was to make "realistic" the default setting,
>and include a number of notes demonstrating how to go
>about something more Classic in style if that was to
>your taste. In retrospect that was probably the wrong
>strategy. At the time I wasn't sure what the biggest
>part of the audience would be - long-time Traveller
>players or newcomers. Clearly, I guessed wrong.

Not entirely true.. those not interested in scientific accuracy tend not to 
bother with extended design systems.


>If First In goes to a second edition, I think the world
>design sequence will default to something much more
>like Book 6 worldgen, with "realism notes" allowing the
>referee to flesh things out or substitute more realistic
>steps to taste. (About the only thing that I would "fix"
>in the default sequence would be the formula for world
>surface temperature in Book 6, which is not only wrong,
>but wrong in such a way that it actually makes Book 6
>much harder to use.)

Hey, I like it just fine.  The only thing I would change is move the 
sections on mapping and animal encounters behind the population details.

>I suspect that would make First In considerably easier
>for long-time Traveller fans to use in their established
>Traveller universes - while still allowing folks who
>roll their own to be as realistic as they choose.

For the record, for Trojan Reach I'm making adjustments to the classic 
information.  Mostly, this is changes stellar types, and changing the sizes 
of worlds that are way to small for their listed "uses."  I'm trying to 
keep the feel of the worlds while making them fit the math.

It's a tightrope, and I hope everyone approves.

(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:22:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <002401c1d9c3$ac6b2e40$6e9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401201741.009f0020@mindspring.com>

At 10:24 PM 4/1/02 +0100, you wrote:
>Guess I'm just on a bit of a hair-trigger about all the people wanting me/us
>to "fix" this or that about the Traveller universe, TNE, or GURPS Trav. Fix
>it enough times and it'll be something completely different to what you
>started with. Like my computer...

"Fixing" world generation doesn't have to be backwards compatible; if you 
want to have Mars-sized worlds with thick atmospheres, it's your hand wave.

In my experience, playing with the rules that the Gods of Nature and 
Physics give us is far more interesting, with odd results like the 
intelligences under the ice that Jens came up with...

For example: these races are all psionic, and have their own "Imperium" 
connected by telepathy and interstellar teleports.  They manipulate us to 
protect their own interests.  Interesting setting, especially when someone 
twigs to the secret.. y'see, *these* are the Ancients!  Al, the Yaskodray 
business is misdirection on their part.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 23:12:36 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <ojaiaukds95jfm1e8hbvvfhdk7e51bpoec@4ax.com>
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com> <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer> <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane> <ojaiaukds95jfm1e8hbvvfhdk7e51bpoec@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1dfiauodt52jg11nh29p9a68ulq7t55aer@4ax.com>

On Mon, 01 Apr 2002 21:58:01 -0600, JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
wrote:

>This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
>There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
>(or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
>sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
>example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.
>
>From a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become part
>of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
>destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
>becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.

Damn.  "Villains"

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:15:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David & Kristin Larson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 21:15:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] RE: John Kwon's SOP
In-Reply-To: <20020401233807.357B8279F7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1da05$6c754180$0300000a@c263000a>

John, I'd also be willing to review your SOP. I'm sure it's something I
could use and I'd be more than willing to pass on any thoughts or ideas
(probably give a different branch perspective as well).

David Larson
dlarson@blarg.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:43:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David & Kristin Larson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 21:43:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] RE: Room Clearing
In-Reply-To: <20020401233807.357B8279F7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c1da09$61259ba0$0300000a@c263000a>

Flash-bangs are in relatively common use (at least I've had no problem
getting them from the ASP).

The biggest factor regarding the use of frag grenades I've come up with is
the likelihood of 1) friendlies in the room (hostages, etc) and 2) the
likelihood of a frag/round punching through the wall. Lined up outside the
door, pressed against the wall is a bad place to be if you're about to
perforate said wall with fragments. Assuming the absence of friendlies and
the presence of strong walls, more boom is better. :)

Of course you always have to consider how badly you *want* to clear the room
or building. Sometimes it's just better to *remove* the building than to
preserve it for future use. YSMV (your situation may vary) ;)

Reading one of the earlier posts regarding the mechanics of room-clearing, a
key point was unclear: when entering the room (assuming a common four-sided
room) the four team members enter as fast as they can alternating moving to
the left and right along the two walls. As they move in they can clear what
they see, but each has a well defined sector that they are responsible for
and must clear. Just because you see a target doesn't make it your shot
(only if your sector is already cleared and no teammates are in the way). As
you move into the room your *available* sector of fire, that which you can
fire into, starts very large but then very rapidly shrinks to a tiny
fraction of what you had. That's why you sweep through the room rather than
point yourself directly at you corner.

Assuming your the number one man and your SOP has you entering and moving
left, your sweep as you enter the door will start in the center of the room
and rapidly sweep to the left corner. As you move towards that corner you
sweep back to the right towards the opposite corner until the room is clear.

OnT: This is not something that the ordinary Traveller group should attempt,
especially against trained opponents. Even if the defender is of a poor tech
level, poorly armed, etc he still holds an advantage. The only real asset
you have is shock and speed. This is a skill that must be trained over and
over and rehearsed repeatedly and against a wide variety of room and
situations. Just image a group of engineers and stewards trying something
like this during a 'hostage rescue' scenario, especially once surprise is
lost. The outcome is left to the imagination.

David
dlarson@blarg.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 06:21:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:21:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sHfY-0003IO-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

> John T. Kwon writes:
> > They already have something today that will zoom under your 
> > car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
> > even restart).
> > 
> > There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
> > a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
> > will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
> > Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
> > go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that difficult to 
build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate power 
battery.  
 
> Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In
> fact, gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing
> the thing will short out all of its electronics, not to mention other
> nearby electronics.

I've a few comments and questions here:

1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this 
shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be 
overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP? 

2) While military equipment wil be shielded, many worlds would 
likely strongly prefer if civilian weapons were not, since having a 
way to stop everyone's guns from working would be a godsend for 
cops (who would presumably also have shielded weapons).   

3) Even if you don't get the weapons, cutting off someone's comm 
will at least stop them from calling for backup.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:28:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:28:21 -0600
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV158oWo7w0nGEbJ8M00012276@hotmail.com>

> I have the feeling that an Imperial ability to commandeer
> your ship is a factor here.

Actually legal forms of "theft" such as comandeering and repossession didn't
enter my mind when I posted, but I can see that these issues are integral to
the question under discussion.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:02:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:02:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <DAV58nLJm2ZBNCogiwH0001b30b@hotmail.com>

As soon as the door begins opening they
> all shoot him.

PCs who went too far?  I'm shocked!<G>

Oddly enough this closely resembles the head-in-the-sand failure to realize
that actions have consequences that so often precedes crime in real life.

> If that same party tried that same stunt again, I'd have the guards at the
> fence shoot them with tranq and they'd wake up in jail.

Ahh, the Prison Campaign...

>there would be automatic
> security programs would have taken over to incapacitate the
> boarders.  Including, lighting, temperature controls, random and extreme
> variations in the artificial gravity grid (from weightless state to
> negative one gee to positive one gee then back to negative one gee, etc.),
> locking down all interior and exterior hatches, and even evacuating air
> from different spaces.  Each individual grav plate is separately
> controlled, and there are preprogrammed routines for turning off all grav
> plates in a corridor except one which is turned to maximum, and sequencing
> which plate is turned to maximum so as to pull someone in the corridor to
> one end or the other of it.  With sufficiently high-powered grav plates,
> someone can be thrown into an airlock, for instance.

A beautiful description of exactly what I meant by "Does the environmental
system become hostile?).  Nice!

>
> Insurance companies and mortgage companies insist upon certain security
> precautions for ships,

Big time!  I can envision insurance inspectors who make the rounds at
starports, conducting unannounced inspections on policyholders.

> If the 'Alien' from the movie boarded my ship, <snip> Subsequent
> events to be determined by the referee.  :->

I liked the movie, but I always thought the crewmembers of the Nostromo had
way too much trouble getting their act together.

>
> If thieves manage to take control of the ship enough to lift off from
> planet, they'll still have to deal with starport and orbital traffic
> control.  This will include knowing what identifying call sign they are
> assigned, filing a flight plan, and getting clearances.  A docked ship
will
> also have its security system linked to the starport, and if the security
> is triggered at any point, the starport security will immediately be
> alerted.  The thief will still have to somehow evade starport, COACC, and
> Imperial facilities, in most systems.  Think satellites, missiles, deep
> meson guns, and SDBs.

Agreed.  Clearly
Step 5. Getting Away
needs to be included.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:40:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:40:01 -0600
Subject: [TML] Stealing Starships - More
Message-ID: <DAV43jxq6pgtq33Z4WN00012b23@hotmail.com>

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I think Matt has raised good points about the dubious usefulness of =
biometric systems for applications that may have to accessed in vaccuum.

Voice prints may become an even more fussy issue, at least as far as the =
exterior hatch goes.  Not only suit radios - but also atmospheric =
compostion and pressure - can alter the human voice.

Many have raised the point - correctly, it seems to me - that there will =
be different levels of security in place for different environments or =
circumstances, even on the same ship.

The product of security and convenience is a constant.  In other words, =
the more security you have, the less convenience - and vice versa.  For =
this reason, if for no other, there will be different levels of =
security.

I can think of several different circumstances that would all cry out =
for different levels of security:

Grounded (not at a starport) with at least one trusted crewmember =
aboard.
Grounded and unoccupied.
Berthed (at a spaceport) with at least one trusted crewmember aboard.
Berthed and unoccupied.
Underway with no passengers.
Underway with passengers.=20

And since we've come to this juncture - what exactly does an anti-hijack =
program do?  Does it scan boarding passengers for weapons?  Monitor =
patterns of passenger movement for suspicious activity?  Compare facial =
features against a known database of offenders? =20

Is it completely passive? ("Sorry to interrupt Captain but five =
passengers are approaching the bridge with weapons and shaped charges")

Or do automated systems take an active role in defending the ship in the =
event of a hijack? (ZAP "Correction Captain.  Make that four =
passengers." ZAP "Sorry.  Three.")  Perhaps if the vessel is taken and =
the Captain doesn't enter an override command, the A-H program scrams =
the power plant.  Or maybe the ship is experimental, powerful, or =
otherwise very _interesting_ in which case the A-H program decides to =
scuttle in 30 minutes...

I _do_ love to give PCs a deadline.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com




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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I think Matt has raised good points about the =
dubious=20
usefulness of biometric systems for applications that may have to =
accessed in=20
vaccuum.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Voice prints may become an even more fussy issue, at =
least as=20
far as the exterior hatch goes.&nbsp; Not only suit radios - but also=20
atmospheric compostion and pressure&nbsp;- can alter the human=20
voice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Many have raised the point - correctly, it seems to =
me - that=20
there will be different levels of security in place for different =
environments=20
or circumstances, even on the same ship.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The product of security and convenience is a =
constant.&nbsp;=20
In other words, the more security you have, the less convenience - and =
vice=20
versa.&nbsp; For this reason, if for no other, there will be different =
levels of=20
security.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I can think of several different circumstances that =
would all=20
cry out for different levels of security:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Grounded (not at a starport) with at least one =
trusted=20
crewmember aboard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Grounded and unoccupied.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Berthed (at a spaceport) with at least one trusted =
crewmember=20
aboard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Berthed and unoccupied.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Underway with no passengers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Underway with passengers.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>And since we've come to this juncture - what exactly =
does an=20
anti-hijack program do?&nbsp; Does it scan boarding passengers for=20
weapons?&nbsp;&nbsp;Monitor patterns of passenger movement for =
suspicious=20
activity?&nbsp; Compare facial features against a known database of=20
offenders?&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Is it completely passive? ("Sorry to interrupt =
Captain but=20
five passengers are approaching the bridge with weapons and shaped=20
charges")</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Or&nbsp;do automated systems take an active role in =
defending=20
the ship in the event of a hijack? (ZAP "Correction Captain.&nbsp; Make=20
that&nbsp;four passengers." ZAP&nbsp;"Sorry.&nbsp; Three.")&nbsp; =
Perhaps if the=20
vessel is taken and the Captain doesn't enter an override command, the =
A-H=20
program scrams the power plant.&nbsp; Or maybe the ship is experimental, =

powerful, or otherwise very _interesting_ in which case the A-H program =
decides=20
to scuttle in 30 minutes...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I _do_ love to give PCs a deadline.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:texasredshift@hotmail.com">texasredshift@hotmail.com</A></=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 06:46:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:46:59 +0100
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <007701c1da12$42ee6230$8d9493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
> stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
> making MY windows rattle.
>

I want plasma grenades for that....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 06:58:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 01:58:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <003f01c1d9d7$50c1d1c0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402015737.02815a50@pop.wizard.net>

>That sounds like something that troopers would break.
>As in "if you leave three soldiers in the desert with an anvil, and come
>back later, the anvil will be broken. And they won't know how it happened."

I sometimes think the entire purpose of boot camp was to teach me to 
convincingly say, "The private don't know, sir."

ObTrav:  Umm.  I'd better stop posting on this thread because I can't think 
of one.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:15:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 02:15:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
In-Reply-To: <200204012252.DDN03437@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402020141.02817660@pop.wizard.net>

JT Kwon says:
>The problem I have with making corrections/changes/etc to the
>combat system of CT/Book 4 is that it is *very* easy to walk
>off the Cliffs of Complexity.
I agree.  What was most needed when MT came out (still is?) was for someone 
to take all CT rules and carefully synthesize them together into one volume 
to get rid of conflicts, ellipses, bits of char gen that improved one 
career but were still missing from older careers, etc.

That was chiefly what I was looking for in MT.  A revised and smoothly 
functioning CT.  Revised rule systems are all well and good, but I want a 
complete and coherent, nonbuggy, smoothly functioning rule set.

The next thing I was looking for was a lot more detailed world data in the 
Spinward Marches, and possibly noble and other governmental NPCs who run 
the Spinward Marches.  The adventures tended to gloss over a lot of 
stuff.  I realize there are different tastes there.  Some referees dislike 
having it all dictated to them.  I prefer having it all pregenerated for 
me, debugged and consistent with the rest of the universe, and using my own 
preferences and judgment to alter or throw out the stuff that suited me.

The other thing I was looking for was more cool science-fiction gizmos, 
preferably accompanied by really good gizmo illustrations.  Sometimes, one 
picture of ...a grav belt, let's say, is worth a few hundred well-chosen words.

Well before MT was issued, I tried taking Striker, Snapshot, the original 
three LBBs, Mercenary, etc. and reconciling all the weapon ranges and 
damage.  I gave it up for a lost cause.  I would have willingly parted with 
hard-earned cash to pay someone else (like GDW) to do it.

>I am trying to avoid using tables, except a few during
>character generation to come up with your initiative and your
>actions.

Mmmmm, I think well-designed tables with just the right accompanying 
titles, captions, and text blurbs can be extremely valuable.  I'm not shy 
about using them.  Excellent design, excellent writing, and excellent 
layout must all converge when it comes to tables in rule books.  But, 
ideally most of those extra chunks of reference and rule system will be 
modular, so the "nongearhead referee" can dispense with it and run the 
simple version quite easily and happily.  But let's not resurrect that 
debate, please.  Forget I ever mentioned.  This is not the rule-design 
droid you are looking for.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:13:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:13:16 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEFOCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
>
>Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
>stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
>making MY windows rattle.

No, I want the EMP grenade to shut off the cars whose xenon headlights are
blinding me, from behind, even when I've switched my rearview mirror to the
polarized position.  Hell, a parabolic mirror with a computer chip for
aiming would probably be enough to get them to back off.

The weapon I'm trying to figure out is an equalizer for pedestrians.
Anything that will actually stop or otherwise neutralize a moving vehicle
that is about to violate a crosswalk will have a danger space that includes
the pedestrian (like a LAW, M203, Panzerfaust, etc.) at typical engagement
ranges.  Anything safe for the pedestrian will not actually stop the vehicle
before impact -- the .44 magnum will shut down the engine, but the car will
keep on rolling.  Many weapons will neutralize the driver, but again, the
car will keep going.  It's a poser.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:22:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 23:22:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16sHfY-0003IO-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B8CE9C2B.34116%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 10:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that difficult to
> build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate power
> battery.  

I have yet to be convinced that such things will work, and be at all
effective.  Particularly as the  strength of burst will be inversely
proportional to the to the square of the distance.  Has anyone actually seen
a demonstration where this works?  It should be rather easy to test.

Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical martial
arts 'death touch'.
> 
> I've a few comments and questions here:
> 
> 1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this
> shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be
> overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP?

Gauss weapons won't need any complex and delicate circuitry if they're
anything like railguns.  I don't expect them to be vulnerable to EMP anymore
than a 1950s Chevy would be.
> 
> 2) While military equipment wil be shielded, many worlds would
> likely strongly prefer if civilian weapons were not, since having a
> way to stop everyone's guns from working would be a godsend for
> cops (who would presumably also have shielded weapons).
> 
> 3) Even if you don't get the weapons, cutting off someone's comm
> will at least stop them from calling for backup.

Common will certainly be more vulnerable, as will computers.  And the
government better tread lightly before using EMP.  Will hospitals be EMP
proof.  Patients with implants.  What about the impact on civil commerce?
Governments don't exist in vacuo. And count on sophisticated bad guys on
have stuff that's a good as what the cops and the military have, if not
better.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:23:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:23:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEFOCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>
>This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
>There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
>(or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
>sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
>example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.

Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's kind
of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not doing any more
jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the character
becomes motivated to take this one, last job.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:19:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:19:47 +0800
Subject: [TML] F14C Scorpion class light fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEIAEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Having apparently inspired people do do versions of this fighter for other
rules sets. It is about time I posted the original F14C Scorpion.

F14C SCORPION CLASS LIGHT FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION


The F14 Scorpion class of light fighter was at one time the most numerous
light fighter used by the Solomani Confederation. It was still in service in
large numbers with second line Solomani forces up to the final collapse, and
was used both as a subordinate craft on some larger starhips, and as a
planetary based fighter. The -C variant was the most numerous type, the
earlier -A and -B variants having been upgraded to the -C model. The earleri
versions mostly differed in the weaponry fitted.

General Data Displacement: 15 tons  Hull Armour: 40
Length: 15 meters  Volume: 210 cubic meters
Price: MCr22.494663  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 354.6512/318.5954 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 117Mw Fusion Power Plant (117Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (1.315Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 4 (18.25Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 40 , 2.28125 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 9

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 60,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 120,000km
Active EMS (4 hexes; 16.5Mw), 3xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 1xWorkstation

Armament Offensive: 1xTL13 50Mj Laser Lance (Loc: 1/4/5; Arcs 1; 13.889Mw;
No Crew), 4x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 4 7-ton missiles or recce drones

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
50Mj Laser Lance  4:1/5-17  8:1/3-9  16:1-4  32:1-2
-2 Difficulty Levels

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0118 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.5889 Mw)
Crew: 1 (1xManuever/Electronics/Gunner)
Crew Accommodations: 1xWorkstation
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 1.6 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 42 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.173 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  	Systems
1  	1-17:Ant  		1-10:Lance,11-20:Elec  	ELS-1H,
2-3  	Ant  			Elec  			LS-1H,
4-5  	Ant  			Hold  			LT-1H,
6-7  	Ant  			Hold  			Lance-1H,
8-9  	1-4:Ant  		Hold  			PP-1H,
10  	1-3:Hatch  		Qtrs  			All others-(1h),
11-13				Hold
14-15	1-11:Missile  	1-13:Grapple,14-20:Hold
16-17				1-14:Eng,15-20:Hold
20   				Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:19:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:19:49 +0800
Subject: [TML] RF14D Scorpion class light recon fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPEEIAEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

This is the recon version of my F14 Scorpion light fighter.

RF14D SCORPION CLASS LIGHT RECON FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION


The -D variant of the F14 Scorpion is the light reconnaisance version. The
major differenc between the -C and -D versions is the fitting of a more
capable sensor suite in the -D at the expense of most of the fighters
armament. A second workstation has also been provided to share the work load
of the fighter.

General Data Displacement: 15 tons  Hull Armour: 40
Length: 15 meters  Volume: 210 cubic meters
Price: MCr32.006997  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 315.6526/295.4188 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 106Mw Fusion Power Plant (106Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (0.1132Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 4 (16.25Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 42 , 2.03125 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 7

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 120,000km Passive EMS Folding Array (4 hexes; 0.15Mw), 60,000km
Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 300,000km Active EMS (10 hexes;
27.5Mw), TL13 Densitometer (0.9Mw), TL12 Neutrino Sensor (0.01Mw), 3xRunning
Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 2xWorkstations

Armament Offensive: 2x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 2 7-ton missiles or
recce drones

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0124 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.6191 Mw)
Crew: 2 (1xElectronics, 1xManuever/Gunner)
Crew Accommodations: 2xWorkstations
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 0.2 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 42 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.03125 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  	Surface Hits  		Internal Explosion  		Systems
1-5  		Ant  				Elec  				ELS-1H,
6-7  		Ant  				1:Qtrs,2-11:Elec,12-20:Hold  	LS-1H,
8-9,11-13  	Ant  				Hold  				PP-1H,
10  		1-3:Hatch,4-20:Ant  	Qtrs  				AEMS-(2h),
14-15  	1-5:Missile,6-20:Ant  	1-7:Grapple,8-20:Hold  		Neutrino-(2h),
16-17  	1-2:Ant  			1-15:Eng,16-20:Hold  		All others-(1h)
18-19   					1-15:Eng,16-20:Hold
20   						Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 03:34:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Another Power Source For FF&S2?
In-Reply-To: <3CA92F7C.B45F42C3@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402033354.00a72bf0@pop.wizard.net>

John Groth says:
>Should we add chemoelectric potatoes as a power plant option in FF&S2?

Renewable energy that helps out with life support systems.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:31:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:31:01 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> This has driven me to tinker with starship costs quite a lot, trying
> to reduce their value by orders of magnitude.  I still haven't found
> a solution that seems properly balanced.

Do what I did in my GURPS game: make FTL drives cost comparable to
maneuver drives, and let them have a second- (or tenth-) hand ship.
This method should be applicable to Traveller; let's see...


Yes, okay.  If Jump-2 engines for the minimum 100 dton ship cost 1 MCr
instead of 10 MCr, then you can build a Jump-2 starship new for about
2.5 MCr.  Such a design uses primarily water tanks with a small fuel
processor to supplement much smaller LHyd tanks (the minimum needed to
initiate jump, whatever that is IYTU), and downgrades the sensors and
some other nonessential (but expensive) electronics.  With an
acceleration capability of 0.2G loaded, it won't ever land on a planet
but it can carry a shuttle that does.  It will also take about 10
hours to reach a 100D limit.  Of course it has no weapons -- even a
single laser costs a significant proportion of the total value.

If such a ship is in very poor but still serviceable condition, it
might be worth 250 kCr.  Valuable, but hardly an amount you could
retire to an island paradise in luxury for the rest of your life.
Especially if it is divided among 6 PCs :)


A probably unintentional side-effect of having very expensive jump
engines is that a starship owner can afford everything else to be
nearly top-of-the-line without greatly increasing the overall cost.
Slashing jump drive costs means that other cost-saving measures
actually become worthwhile, which (IMO) makes for much more
interesting design choices in the game.

Of course cutting jump drive costs by an order of magnitude means that
interstellar freight costs will be reduced, but not by an order of
magnitude.  Operating costs (crew, port fees, administration overhead,
maintenance) become the dominant factor rather than interest on the
mortgage.  I think I worked out a few years ago that the cost of jump
systems makes up about 60-70% of average freight costs (where are
these things when I need them), so the cost of freight would probably
halve.

There is yet another reason why I might recommend this approach.  If
low-acceleration unarmed merchant ships that have poor sensors and
can't land are common, it makes an excellent excuse for significantly
increased piracy levels around backwater worlds.  Not to mention the
fact that pirates can risk a much smaller monetary investment for
cargo that is still just as valuable as in the "expensive drives"
case.

;^>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:43:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 03:43:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>
References: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402033956.00a76170@pop.wizard.net>

Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...

Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug, 
your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead 
GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is 
despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode of 
eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.

--Laning, Canoneer of God


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:06:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:06:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <003d01c1d9e9$a2218e40$f6b18b90@computer>
References: <20020401200104.BCEA627A48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402034537.00a74010@pop.wizard.net>

Alan Bradley quotes me then asks:
> > From: laning
> > Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no
> > scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the
> > fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world
> > in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL 13
> > COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much less
> > likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.
>
>One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?

Obvious.  Getting into trouble.  The ISS isn't silly enough to send lone 
scouts to planets.  It sends contact teams, survey teams, whatever, but in 
teams.  Um, perhaps his ship is suffering from technical problems and it's 
a forced landing.  He's looking for local help resolving the problem.

And thereby hangs at least a couple of different adventure seeds.  The 
aging ex-scout in a starport bar whose partner went jump mad, did something 
to the nav controls and caused a misjump then committed suicide.  He was 
forced to land on a world whose exact location he was unsure of to seek 
help, the seemingly primitive local chirpers gathered around his ship, then 
he just _knew_ somehow that the ship was fixed.  He reboarded it, it worked 
fine.  Too fine!  It used fuel at one one-hundredth of the normal 
rate!  And he couldn't figure out how or why.  He also just _knew_ what nav 
settings to use to jump back to civilization and didn't think to question 
that, just did it.  When he got back to an ISS base, they told him the 
incident never happened and took the ship away "for repairs".  He was 
abruptly transferred to a training command as an instructor, where they 
spent about one month debriefing him on his experience in great detail.  He 
can't say exactly where that planet was, but he thinks he might remember 
the nav settings he used to jump away from it, and he knows where that jump 
ended.

Or.  Your small scout vessel has just had its fuel purifier go bad and 
you've landed on a TL 6 planet that you were only supposed to orbit.  You 
need to negotiate with the locals for refined fuel.  If you meet with their 
scientists you think you can arrange for them to refine what you need.  But 
you have to get past their military and politicians first.  Several of whom 
think the smart thing to do with an alien spaceship is keep it for 
themselves, but it's locked.  You're starting to think your only chance of 
staying alive for now is to convince them they cannot get inside the ship 
without your help.  Klaatu barada nictu.

Or.  Your tramp trader calls on an out of the way system in hopes of 
selling some chameleon cloth or other gewgaws to the natives, and maybe 
picking up some unique local handiworks that you can sell to archeologists 
when you return to civilization.  Hey, an independent business soph has to 
be creative to stay ahead of the big corporate competition.  So you do a 
few orbital passes while you make a survey.  Never land blindly, not if you 
want to live a long time in this business.  There's a ship down there in 
the jungle.  You get a close up photo image.  It's practically overgrown 
with jungle!  Not enough IR signature to be generating any heat 
internally.  No beacons.  Doesn't respond to any radio hails.  You send the 
ship's boat to investigate.  It's a scout ship, a model that hasn't been in 
common use for about fifteen Imperial years.  There are two skeletons on 
the bridge, visible through the viewport.  If you manage to get past the 
locked outer airlock door,  it will have to be by force.  That's when you 
find more skeletons in the interior corridor adjacent to the 
airlock.  Visible through the viewport again.  If you manage to force your 
way past the inner airlock door, that's when the ship begins to power up 
and various antihijack programs kick in.  You're starting to think you know 
how the skeletons next to the airlock got to be that way.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:20:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:20:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>
References: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>

Anthony Jackson quoted then wrote:
>Matthew Bond writes:
> > One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's
> > at doorlocks etc...
> >
> > How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> > Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior
> > is exposed to Vacuum?
>
>How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use?
>There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
>'security while everyone is away'.

I agree with Matt Bond about avoiding biometrics.

There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example.  Paying 
passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them through the 
passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger areas of the ship.  Each 
keycard is unique to each passenger, and so the same card gets them into 
their own private cabin.  Crew will have similar cards, that give them more 
freedom, and exactly how much and which greater freedoms would depend on 
the crew member's billet.  In a hijack situation, the captain or bridge 
watch officer uses a much higher level of security access to lock down all 
passenger hatchways, among various other security measures  This overrides 
the passenger keycards, of course, and limits crewmember keycards according 
to the specific alert situation.  The higher levels of access can't require 
a physical key because that might not be possible in some emergency 
scenarios.  Thus, it requires more elaborate and closely guarded usernames 
and passwords.

Voice print and/or retina scan _might_ be required for confirmation, but 
only as an additional measure.  Voiceprints are vulnerable to spoofing with 
recordings or even computer-synthesized voices.  Retina scans would only be 
desirable if they can be read through a vacc suit faceplate.  And they 
might be subject to spoofing, as well.  So even these two biometrics would 
probably be ignored by skilled designers of most ship security systems.

The biggest vulnerability is if someone gains knowledge of the captain's 
username and password.  That's why there's an owner's username and password 
that can override even the captain's access level.  In situations where law 
enforcement needs it, they can usually get it from the owner.  Sufficiently 
clever and ruthless hijackers might be able to do so, also.  That would be 
bad.  What provisions can we make for the captain and crew to neutralize 
hijackers who had done that?  Weapons and vacc suits and that's about 
it?  They should start out with physical possession of the bridge and 
engineering, so the hijackers would still have a fight on their hands 
before being able to fly the ship.  Maybe there should be lots of panic 
buttons around the ship.  Break glass and pull handle to start the 
"Emergency, I am being hijacked" beacon.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:29:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
References: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402042211.00a7a020@pop.wizard.net>

Matt Bond asks:
>Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
>kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
>Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Okay, I guess the security override system is composed of very tiny 
computerized access points, networked together.  They normally act as dumb 
workstations for talking to the ship's computer, but in case of network or 
computer problems they can act independent of the ship's computer to let 
stranded people with proper username and password enter the ship safely.

This creates a couple of vulnerabilities, but that is accepted in the name 
of user safety.  Now, would be hijackers only have to spoof the tiny dumb 
workstation computer at one of the access points if they want to board the 
ship.  The workstation knows all the usernames and passwords, although even 
a dumb workstation can be pretty tough to crack heavily encrypted data like 
that.  The hijackers could bring along some smart computer of their own to 
try to crack it.  They could eavesdrop on network traffic between the 
workstation and the ship's computer and crack the username and password 
that way.

Therefore, usernames and passwords are rotated frequently, and the network 
link between the workstation and ship's computer is fiber optic.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:40:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:40:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV58nLJm2ZBNCogiwH0001b30b@hotmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402043102.0280d0f0@pop.wizard.net>

Bill Scheets aka Tex says:
>Agreed.  Clearly
>Step 5. Getting Away
>needs to be included.

And Step 6.  Continuing To Get Away With It The Rest Of Their 
Lives.  Staying in Imperial space, for instance, and having to deal with 
not only transponder IDs, but all kinds of ship's papers and records, 
personal IDs, and all this checked against......databases.

I'm thinking that in Zhodani space, the thieves just have to fool the 
telepathic Thought Police who make routine boarding inspections of all 
docked ships.  And everyone entering the starport has to get past 
telepathic Thought Police at checkpoints.  It's going to be awfully hard to 
get away with this crime there.  But even with this security, the Zhodani 
will probably employ databases and various kinds of ID for ships, ships 
crews, major starship components, and cargos.  As well as the usual logs, 
flight plans, maintenance records, safety inspections, more thorough 
inspections during annual maintenance, yatta yatta yatta.

There's a reason that Vargr space is as disorganized as Traveller indicates 
it is at the governmental level.  Much easier for piracy and other such 
activities in or near Vargr space.  Very convenient for many 
campaigns.  And perhaps we've discovered a way to reconcile the piracy+ 
crowd with the piracy- crowd.  Piracy can be viable, but only in regions 
like the Vargr Extents and other regions of space where governmental 
authority only has a short reach.  Which really just rephrases what some of 
us have been saying for a long time.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:57:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:57:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Stealing Starships - More
In-Reply-To: <DAV43jxq6pgtq33Z4WN00012b23@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402044404.0280ec90@pop.wizard.net>

>And since we've come to this juncture - what exactly does an anti-hijack 
>program do?  Does it scan boarding passengers for weapons?  Monitor 
>patterns of passenger movement for suspicious activity?  Compare facial 
>features against a known database of offenders?
>
>Is it completely passive? ("Sorry to interrupt Captain but five passengers 
>are approaching the bridge with weapons and shaped charges")
>
>Or do automated systems take an active role in defending the ship in the 
>event of a hijack? (ZAP "Correction Captain.  Make that four passengers." 
>ZAP "Sorry.  Three.")  Perhaps if the vessel is taken and the Captain 
>doesn't enter an override command, the A-H program scrams the power 
>plant.  Or maybe the ship is experimental, powerful, or otherwise very 
>_interesting_ in which case the A-H program decides to scuttle in 30 minutes...

Assuming you've paid for a real, live Antihijack program, then the answer 
is it will do any and all combinations of the above, plus a lot of other 
things besides.  You just go to any console that lets you access the user 
interface for your Antihijack program and select any of a number of popular 
default configurations.  Then start customizing it as you desire.  Assuming 
your username and password is authorized.  A significant part of 
configuring its settings is to determine exactly what access and overrides 
each username is granted.  Probably the vendor who sold it to you had an 
installation consultant visit and spend an hour or three until you had at 
least one crew member comfortable with it.  Its capabilities have evolved 
for literally centuries and there are few situations that have not been 
thought of.  The user interface has evolved for a similar period of time 
and is surprisingly intuitive and easy to use.

There would be various hardware extras that you may or may not want to 
install.  You want a flamethrower pointed down the airlock corridor and 
controllable via the Antihijack program?  No problem, we can have it 
delivered and installed in one to three days.  That'll run you extra for 
the hardware, plus an additional installation fee for configuring it 
properly with the software.  Only available where law level permits.  You 
are responsible for showing our salesman all required government permits 
before the sale can be final.  You should check with your liability insurer 
before getting any fixed interior weaponry as it may void your policy or 
require a new rider.  You should also be warned that such riders tend to be 
extremely expensive.  Manufacturer and vendor are in no way liable for 
injuries, death, or property damaged which might involve said flamerthrower.

When a really cheap starship costs tens of millions and most starship types 
cost hundreds of millions, there will be pretty elaborate and effective 
layers of security to prevent loss.  And software applications will have 
been evolved and debugged for hundreds of years, which is a way of thinking 
that most of us on the TML need to consciously force ourselves into because 
we're used to all software being relatively new, somewhat unstable, usually 
a bastard of a user interface, never the same two years in a row, etc.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 10:02:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 05:02:30 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer>
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402045857.02801d60@pop.wizard.net>

Alan Bradley, who has been there and has the tee shirt to prove it, says:
>"Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got a
>harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
>schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a fusion
>reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own army.
>What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania thinks he
>has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us independent
>enclaves to make sure he doesn't."

Perfect, Chairman Laning and his Lanite citizens should find King Bradley 
to be an excellent neighbor and ally.  You're invited to drop over anytime 
for tropical drinks on the veranda.  The dancing girls put on a fine show 
around the bonfire after midnight, it's always a big hit with guests.  Just 
be sure to let us know before heading over, so we can make sure the air 
defense system doesn't do anything rash to your air rafts.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 10:29:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 05:29:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices [was Re: Living...on an
 Airplane]
In-Reply-To: <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>

Tim Little responded to my quest for much cheaper starships with very 
interesting thoughts.  I've had mostly the same ideas, but yours are better 
organized and developed, Tim.  Thanks much.  :->

The two big differences for me would be reducing the overall cost by at 
least two or even three orders of magnitude, and trying to do it so that 
there's still a huge price jump going from nonstarship to starship.

In other words, reduce hull, computer, maneuver, and power plant costs by 
probably two orders of magnitude but jump drives by only one.  Which still 
doesn't work out quite as tidily as I'd like.

I would like it if you could commission say a really nice yacht for 3 
megacredits or less.  Which is still a huge sum of money.  Weaponry and 
shield costs would remain unmodified.  Or a 200-ton free trader for maybe 
just under 1 megacredit, built new.  I don't want to open the rule books 
right now to run the numbers because I'm already way overdue to hit the 
rack and sleep.

One of the problems with the above approach is anyone with good credit and 
a good business plan could build jump-5 or jump-6 ships and they would be 
too common.  Which got me to wondering if I couldn't make the cost for jump 
drives go up proportional to the square of the jump number.  Which in turn 
got to me wondering if it would be a good idea to have the same type of 
relationship for power plants and maneuver drives.  Probably yes to jump 
drives and no to the others.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 10:30:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:30:26 +1200
Subject: [TML] Re: Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331112145.025208a0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020331073926.009f9080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CAA3102.30051.BC0A20@localhost>

On 31 Mar 2002, at 11:29, laning wrote:

> This has led me to wonder if Orthodox Jews ever make it off the planet 
> Earth in the canonical Traveller universe.  Perhaps in low 
> berths?  Probably not.  Would the opportunity to actually meet these 
> foreign people called Orthodox Jews be a tourist attraction when planning 
> to travel to Terra?

To be honest, I don't think Jews (of any ilk) would be all that 
common in the Traveller Universe. There are under 15 million Jews 
worldwide right now (13.6 IIRC) and the faith doesn't encourage 
conversion. I'd say 100 million tops for 1100 Imperial (probably far 
less), mostly clustered on and around Terra. The vast majority of 
Imperial citizens have probably never heard of them. However, I 
would say that they will still be around.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 11:28:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:28:20 +1200
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAA3E94.13432.F10D0B@localhost>

On 1 Apr 2002, at 17:25, John T. Kwon wrote:

> You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles, 
> but they don't have an air force anymore.

We don't actually need an airforce, the 1,800 km moat serves well 
enough unless you're going to bring along an aircraft carrier. And if 
you can bring along an aircraft carrier, we couldn't have stopped 
you anyway.

Vague ObTrav: Think of all the thousands of low to mid population 
worlds. They have no hope of stopping a half serious assault, so 
how are their defence forces structured? A small professional force 
sufficent to deal with casual raiders and to act as a cadre for a 
guerilla resistance until someone comes to their rescue. One to 
three battalions of mobile ground troops and two or three heavy 
fighters should be sufficent.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 11:38:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:38:14 +1200
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185058.00a65e80@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEIGHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

laning wrote :
> JT Kwon wrote:
> >Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
> >
> >You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles,
> >but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up
> >with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right
> >positions in government for the die hards, it might work.
>
> The worst part is it's probably the New Zealanders on
> the list who are laughing the hardest at that.  :->

I thought we wuz included in the "right positions in government
for the die hards" bit ?

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 11:38:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:38:13 +1200
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEIGHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

John Kwon writes
>(Megan Robertson)  says
> >Subject: Re: [TML] room clearing
> >
> >The British Army method is: -
> >
<snip>
> Yes, that's very similar to what was SOP just prior to the
> last technique.  What you describe above is what is known as
> Battle Drill #6.

One assumes all the room clearing techniques being discussed are
for bunkers or concrete buildings of better than average
construction against a well-motivated enemy.

To clear a modern apartment, office or hotel room, stand in the
hallway outside, and spray the room(s) with automatic fire,
remembering to cover the entire wall and especially remembering
to fire at ground level a few times.

Then push the wall over.

Just remember that the wall isn't going to give _you_ any cover
when you start firing either.
<grin>

Oh, and remember to fire in to the air outside the building a few
times first. Based on my observations of most troops and the
majority of civilians, that'll mean they'll be standing in the
windows, looking for where the shots came from.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:02:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:02:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIADJAA.tml@downport.com>

I'm doing some research for a TAS supplement and could use some help with
references. The supplement will be CT, but I'd like to read up on any
reference, in any version, that mentions the TAS.

If you'd like to reply in the thread on the TAS-Net web boards, here is the
thread URL: http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=38. I'll get them all
into the thread, eventually.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
"In conclusion, remember that Traveller
  is a game, and that it goes differently
    for everyone who plays. Bon voyage!"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:14:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:14:25 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <20020402064409.B8250279FA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c1da40$0a82f040$2c5d8690@computer>

> From: JR Holmes 
> This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
> There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
> (or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
> sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
> example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.
> 
> =46rom a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become part
> of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
> destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
> becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.

You evil naughty man...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:12:36 +1000
Subject: [TML] RE: Room Clearing
Message-ID: <001e01c1da40$09e43f40$2c5d8690@computer>

> From: "David & Kristin Larson"
> Flash-bangs are in relatively common use (at least I've had no problem
> getting them from the ASP).

Just last week one of the veterans at work was showing us the scars he got
from a flash-bang that went off too close to him.

He and some other army guys were training with a bunch of cops  (Tactical
Response Group - SWAT types), when one of the cops rolled a flash-bang the
wrong way.  Result:  small but interesting shrapnel wounds.  My friend was
actually behind the guy that took the brunt of the bang, but the grenade had
rolled between his feet, and bounced off a wall before going off.

All of this was apparently rather embarrassing to the people responsible for
organising the exercise.  Fortunately nobody was seriously injured, so their
butts weren't kicked too hard.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:15:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:15:22 GMT
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net> <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3ca99b9a.4755858@post.demon.co.uk>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:

>> >I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air
>force.
>>
(snip)
>
>Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns =
are
>very handy for burglars...

I want an L5 space station, then I can not only declare independence,
but address communications to world leaders as "foolish
Earth-beings!".

And if anybody objects, well, I'm at the top of the gravity well and
there are lots of rocks in space...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 13:12:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:12:18 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net> <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <3ca99b9a.4755858@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <002301c1da48$17342b80$d99593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
>Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are
>very handy for burglars...

I want an L5 space station, then I can not only declare independence,
but address communications to world leaders as "foolish
Earth-beings!".

And if anybody objects, well, I'm at the top of the gravity well and
there are lots of rocks in space...

Excellent! Though sitting out on the Veranda on an evening is a bit
chilly....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:07:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 06:07:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020402140743.71732.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Matthew Bond <mattgbond@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA
> while in space to do some
> kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my
> Airlocks Starport Locking
> Mechanism. How do I get back in?

I don't think it is even that necessary to contrive
the possibility.  I don't think that every port of
call on a vaccuum world is going to pressurize the
landing area.  They may have special vehicles to get
you from your ship to the StarPort, but if they don't,
its into the vacc suit.  Then how do you get back into
your ship?


Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:16:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:16:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <03b401c1da51$0d6c92f0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

I've often through of a bass seeking missle for just such an occasion

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 6:54 PM
Subject: RE: [TML] handy device


> Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
> stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
> making MY windows rattle.
>
> Jesse
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:40 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] handy device
>
>
> They already have something today that will zoom under your
> car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
> even restart).
>
> There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
> a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
> will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
> Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
> go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).
>
> It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
> have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
> left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.
>
> Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:22:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:22:58 EST
Subject: [TML] Malorn Union and Winston Democracy
Message-ID: <a2.235606a8.29db18c2@aol.com>

Can anyone tell me anything about these two pocket states beyond
their names and allegiance codes?

I'm reworking Aldebaran sector for an upcoming GURPS Traveller book.
I need to know how seriously I need to consider leaving these two states
in existence :-). Clearly they aren't canonical in the strict sense of the
word, but if any fans are fond of them I can't be too cavalier about
erasing them. . .

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:40:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 00:40:39 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9C2E7.20705@gmx.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>"MJ Dougherty" says
>
>>I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my 
>>own air force.
>>
>
>Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
>
>You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles, 
>but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up 
>with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right 
>positions in government for the die hards, it might work.
>
Don't laugh... this may have already happened.
-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:34:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:34:38 +0800
Subject: [TML] F17 Starfire class light fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEIFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Just when you thought it was safe, another fighter.

F17 STARFIRE CLASS LIGHT FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION



The F17 Starfire class light fighter was designed at the same time as the
F16 Scimitar class light fighter, with which it shares many components. Not
as fast as the Scimitar, having a maneuver drive capable of 4G compared to
the Scimitars 5G, the Starfire does carry a somewhat heavier armament in the
form of two 50-Mj Laser Lances compared to the Scimitars single.

General Data Displacement: 20 tons  Hull Armour: 50
Length: 16 meters  Volume: 280 cubic meters
Price: MCr25.172723  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 471.972/434.9299 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 151Mw Fusion Power Plant (75.5Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (0.2232Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 4 (23.5Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 41.6 , 2.9375 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 12

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 60,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 120,000km
Active EMS (4 hexes; 16.5Mw), 3xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 2xWorkstations

Armament Offensive: 2xTL13 50Mj Laser Lances (Loc: 2/3; Arcs 1; Loc: 18/19;
Arcs: 5; 13.889Mw each; No Crew), 4x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 4 7-ton
missiles or recce drones

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
50Mj Laser Lance  4:1/5-17  8:1/3-9  16:1-4  32:1-2
-2 Difficulty Levels

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0157 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.7828 Mw)
Crew: 2 (1xManuever/Electronics/Gunner, 1xGunner)
Crew Accommodations: 2xWorkstations
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 0.4 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 56 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.182 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  		Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  	Systems
1  			Ant  			Elec  			LS-2H,
2-3  			1-18:Ant  		1-11:Lance,12-20:Elec  	PP-2H,
4-5  			1-19:Ant  		1-7:Elec,8-20:Hold  	ELS-1H,
6-7  			1-19:Ant  		1:Qtrs,2-20:Hold  	Lance-1H,
8-9,11-13   				Hold  			MD-(2h),
10  			1-2:Hatch  		Qtrs  			All others-(1h),
14-15  		1-10:Missile  	1-10:Grapple,11-14:Eng,15-20:Hold
16-17   					Eng
18-19   					1-11:Lance,12-20:Eng
20   						Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:34:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:34:35 +0800
Subject: [TML] F16 Scimitar class light fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEIFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

F16 SCIMITAR CLASS LIGHT FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION



The Scimitar class light fighter was in widespread service with Solomani
forces, especially second line units, at the start of the Second Solomani
Rim War. As the war progressed Scimitars were gradually pushed into first
line units because of losses of more advanced types.

Somewhat larger than the F14 Scorpion they could not use the launch tubes on
Consort class escort carriers, they were faster than the Scorpions, boasting
a 5G capability.

General Data Displacement: 20 tons  Hull Armour: 60
Length: 16 meters  Volume: 280 cubic meters
Price: MCr25.64925  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 487.4876/456.9102 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 166Mw Fusion Power Plant (83Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (1.1585Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 5 (24.4Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 43 , 3.05 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 11

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 60,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 120,000km
Active EMS (4 hexes; 16.5Mw), 3xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 2xWorkstations

Armament Offensive: 1xTL13 50Mj Laser Lance (Loc: 2/3; Arcs 1; 13.889Mw; No
Crew), 3x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 3 7-ton missiles or recce drones

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
50Mj Laser Lance  4:1/5-17  8:1/3-9  16:1-4  32:1-2
-2 Difficulty Levels

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0148 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.7374 Mw)
Crew: 2 (1xManuever/Electronics, 1xGunner)
Crew Accommodations: 2xWorkstations
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 0.3 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 56 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.342 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  		Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  	Systems
1  			Ant  			Elec  			LS-2H,
2-3  			1-18:Ant  		1-11:Lance,12-20:Elec  	PP-2H,
4-5  			1-19:Ant  		1-7:Elec,8-20:Hold  	ELS-1H,
6-7  			1-19:Ant  		1-2:Qtrs,3-20:Hold  	Lance-1H,
8-9,12-13   				Hold  			MD-(2h),
10  			1-2:Hatch  		Qtrs  			All others-(1h)
11,14-15  		1-5:Missile  	1-5:Grapple,6-20:Hold
16-19   					1-13:Grapple,14-20:Hold
16-19   					1-19:Eng,20:Hold
20   						Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:03:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 08:03:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402033956.00a76170@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>
 <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402080234.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>

At 03:43 AM 4/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
>>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...
>
>Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug, 
>your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead 
>GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is 
>despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode 
>of eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.
>
>--Laning, Canoneer of God

I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.

(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...

100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.


--

Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:05:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:05:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

LOL!!!  That's the other one that my roomies and I thought of as well!  That, and "Too-stupid-to-live" ortillery ;D

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Pratt [mailto:cdpratt@gatecom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 6:17 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] handy device


I've often through of a bass seeking missle for just such an occasion

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:09:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:09:42 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>
 <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020402080234.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9D7C6.8D7E0D48@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 03:43 AM 4/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
> >>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...
> >
> >Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug,
> >your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead
> >GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is
> >despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode
> >of eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.
> >
> >--Laning, Canoneer of God
> 
> I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
> 
> (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> 
> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

All right, I'll take that challenge...

<<paraphrase spoiler space>>












<<paraphrase spoiler space ends>>

Galileo's "Yet it still moves."

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:23:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:23:29 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [TML] [ANNOUNCEMENT] Frontiers PBeM Campaign
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204021821020.168484-100000@svati>

Hi all,

  I'm setting up a PBeM in the Spinward Marches/Trojan Reaches
sectors and are looking for some interested players. More
info can be found by going to the PBeM section on
www.travellercentral.com

Cheers
Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:43:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:43:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] [ANNOUNCEMENT] Frontiers PBeM Campaign
Message-ID: <OF198476A5.770671F6-ON85256B8F.005B7FB4@pheaa.org>








<snip>
  I'm setting up a PBeM in the Spinward Marches/Trojan Reaches
sectors and are looking for some interested players.
</snip>

I would like to play. i cant check traveller central from work so could you
let me know what version of traveller you will be using? will the gm be
making Pre-generated chars? if not can we request a pre generated char?

thanks

Bill






From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:04:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:04:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] room clearing
References: <200203312207.DBP01462@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401224917.01b08448@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3CA9E49E.50806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:

> Flash bangs are also quite dangerous in confined spaces.  The big 
> difference between that and fragmentation grenade is lack of 
> fragmentation in the Flashbang.  You still have about the same amount of 
> explosive material.

Yep, and they're powerful, too. There was a police raid on a house a 
good 90-100 yards away from our house. They tossed a fb in the front 
door of the place. The boom rattled the windows in OUR house, and was 
loud enough, I started looking for which next-door neighbor's furnace 
exploded.

Moreover, the windows were rattled hard on the side of our house *away* 
from the raid, which had the bulk of three houses between us and the 
explosion.

I can't imagine what it was like *inside* that room.
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:04:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:04:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
Message-ID: <200204021704.DEX06493@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>
>(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
>
>100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
>
galileo
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:11:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:11:27 +0200
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIADJAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIADJAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020402191127.6b66c4f3.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Swordy wrote:
> I'm doing some research for a TAS supplement and could use some help
with
> references. The supplement will be CT, but I'd like to read up on any
> reference, in any version, that mentions the TAS.
> 
> If you'd like to reply in the thread on the TAS-Net web boards, here is
the
> thread URL: http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=38. I'll get them
all
> into the thread, eventually.

Wouldn't this make for an excellent GT supplement as well? That way, it
might even see print...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:14:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16sHfY-0003IO-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017767692.2225.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
>
> 1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this 
> shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be 
> overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP? 

The shielding necessary to protect a gauss rifle from its own operation will
shield from levels of EMP that aren't lethal to humans at short range.
> 
> 2) While military equipment wil be shielded, many worlds would 
> likely strongly prefer if civilian weapons were not, since having a 
> way to stop everyone's guns from working would be a godsend for 
> cops (who would presumably also have shielded weapons).  

And, for various reasons, unshielded weapons will be very unpopular, since EMP
devices are nowhere difficult enough to build for only the cops to have them. 
Any world with a law level high enough to want all weapons to be unshielded
probably also has a law level high enough not to permit civilian ownership of
gauss or energy weapons, and a CPR gun with non-electronic sights is immune to
EMP at levels that won't kill humans. 
> 
> 3) Even if you don't get the weapons, cutting off someone's comm 
> will at least stop them from calling for backup.

True, though lasercomms and burst transmitters can be shielded fairly easily. 
A conventional radio would be hard to shield.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:17:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:17:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017767869.7543.ajackson@ping>

Matthew Bond writes:

> Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
> kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
> Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Ok, we're talking once in a hundred year scale accidents here, so we don't
worry about it.  However, most likely the scout left the door open, making the
issue moot.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:26:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:26 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <memo.187211@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3CA9E49E.50806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Greetings dear hearts.

I've been on the receiving end of a flash-bang, fortunately while standing 
outside in the dark, and that's quite enough, thank you!

I couldn't see a thing for quite some time.

The odd thing was, I issued a challenge in what to me was just a random 
direction, and managed to draw a bead on the fellow who chucked it. I 
never did let on to him that I hadn't somehow spotted him... just adds to 
the legend :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:28:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:28:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
Message-ID: <20020402.093118.-186857.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


> Douglas Berry says
> >
> >(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> >
> >100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
> >
>  

"We look for things to make us go" ??? ST:TNG

Turokan

.--.   ...       .----   .----   -....   ---...   ----.       ..      
.--   ..   .-..   .-..       .--   .-   .-..   -.-       -...   .   ..-. 
 ---   .-.   .       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..       ..  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   .-   -.   -..       ---   ..-.       -
  ....   .       .-..   ..   ...-   ..   -.   --.   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:40:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:40:40 +0200
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
References: <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020402194040.7979a578.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Of course all the Major races evolved on Earthlike worlds... Its had to
> develop a spacefaring civilisation then there is a kilometres thick ice
> sheet between you and the stars (not that you'd even know they
existed...)

That is a point I hadn't thought of...

*sound of head hitting table repeatedly*

Combined with Doug's idea of psionic lifeforms, this might be really
interesting.

Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world under
the ice.

Off course, the Zhodani might be aware of such a race (since they have
both better defense against psionics and use robots heavily)...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:40:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Classic Traveller)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:40:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <20020402191127.6b66c4f3.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>

When it is completed I will publish it in PDF. That way it will definitely
see print "see print", if it is worth the paper to print it on ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Jens Rydholm

Swordy wrote:
> I'm doing some research for a TAS supplement and could use some help with
> references. The supplement will be CT, but I'd like to read up on any
> reference, in any version, that mentions the TAS.
>
> If you'd like to reply in the thread on the TAS-Net web boards, here is
the
> thread URL: http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=38. I'll get them
all
> into the thread, eventually.

Wouldn't this make for an excellent GT supplement as well? That way, it
might even see print...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:43:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:43:36 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <18.1cd71567.29db47c8@aol.com>

--part1_18.1cd71567.29db47c8_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 02/04/02 02:10:20 GMT Daylight Time, 
mattgbond@ntlworld.com writes:


> One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at
> doorlocks etc...
> 
> How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior 
> is
> exposed to Vacuum?
> 
> Not many...
> 
> Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by
> being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a 
> recording
> being played over radio)
> 
> I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices
> relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad 
> ID
> number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the
> card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you
> have access to your account.
> 
> After all, you want security to stop casual access to secure areas, but not
> so secure that it inhibits routine or emergency access.
> 
> Matt
> 

Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs 
starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're 
borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.

The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not to 
let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can probably 
see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information than 
you wish to give out.

If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems for 
opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch 
then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to a 
specialist lock-smith.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_18.1cd71567.29db47c8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 02:10:20 GMT Daylight Time, mattgbond@ntlworld.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at<BR>
doorlocks etc...<BR>
<BR>
How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit<BR>
Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior is<BR>
exposed to Vacuum?<BR>
<BR>
Not many...<BR>
<BR>
Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by<BR>
being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a recording<BR>
being played over radio)<BR>
<BR>
I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices<BR>
relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad ID<BR>
number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the<BR>
card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you<BR>
have access to your account.<BR>
<BR>
After all, you want security to stop casual access to secure areas, but not<BR>
so secure that it inhibits routine or emergency access.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.<BR>
<BR>
The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not to let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can probably see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information than you wish to give out.<BR>
<BR>
If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems for opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to a specialist lock-smith.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_18.1cd71567.29db47c8_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:46:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:46:30 EST
Subject: [TML] Questions, questions
Message-ID: <102.1302b0d5.29db4876@aol.com>

1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to 
remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible

2) Can Hivers hold their breath?

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:51:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:51:40 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
> First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might
be.
> Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in
the
> game universe are - IMO - dubious.

My main aim isn't to recreate the original Traveller sequence. If I'd
wanted that, I'd just use it instead of First In  ;-)

However, I want roughly the same spread of intelligent races as in typical
SF, ie the most common environment for sentinent life to evolve in is on
Earthlike worlds.

I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might look
under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary after a
while.

While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
function using radically different biochemistries?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:11:03 -0800
Subject: [TML] Traveller PBeMs
Message-ID: <B8CF3437.341C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Just checking back with everyone on the list.

If you are running a Traveller PBeM and want to advertise it, please drop me
a not.  I'm trying to get a lists of all Traveller PBeM posted to
TravellerCentral.

Thanks
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:27:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:27:36 +0100
Subject: [TML] Classic Traveller GM Screen
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020322222704.00b6d1b0@192.168.0.1>
 <3CA6EBDE.4F036886@virgin.net> <200203310632250552.5A478B7C@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CA9F818.C7735816@virgin.net>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 3/31/2002 at 10:58 AM Si wrote:
>
> >Guys ('n' gals),
> >
> >I am currently using the Judges Guild CT Referee's screen (the 4 page,
> >double-sided dark green one with the chunky writing - if there is more than
> >one).  As it is now getting on quite a bit (I am sure it must be well over 20
> >years old now, an age that most of us can only vaguely remember) and stuck
> >together with sellotape that is older than all 3 of my kids put together, i
> >would really like to print off a good version and get it laminated so i can
> >enjoy it for another 20+ years.  The problem is, i can't manage to scan a
> >decent copy and i don't want to photocopy it as i would ideally like an
> >electronic version I can manipulate a bit beforehand.
> >
> >does anyone on the TML have a decent electronic copy of this screen that they
> >could send me, or know how i can get a decent scan of it?
>
> Wait just a bit and you can have a brand new one!
>
> We (QLI) have a CT screen ready to go as soon as we print T20 (yeah yeah I know about the delays *grin*). The new screen is based in part on the original JG screen (we bought out the rights to the old JG Traveller material awhile back).
>
> Hunter

There is only so long i can wait dude

;-)

Seriously though, I intend to get the T20 stuff anyway, but i also want the original CT screen so i can run nostalgia games.

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:29:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:29:35 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: Accents and Bonuses
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020331073926.009f9080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9F88F.5EF04DC9@virgin.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 01:06 AM 3/31/02 -0800, you wrote:
> > >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> >
> > >How do you use the elevators?  You can't press the buttons on
> > >the Sabbath, nor can you ask someone to press your floor.
> >
> >The stairs you should take.  God forbid your heart should take that day off,
> >too.
>
> A solution if you have a room on the second or third floors..
>
> ObTrav: A ship crewed by Orthodox Jews sets up so they will spend Passover
> in jump.  They misjump, and come out of jump way early, on a course to hit
> something large and fatal.  Your characters are passengers on said
> ship..  Much fun happens.
>
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

Doubt it, you can break nearly every single law in order to save life (apart from
the total ban on cannibalism, murder and incest - i think)

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:47:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:47:55 -0700
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
>>This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
>>First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might
> 
> be.
> 
>>Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in
> 
> the
> 
>>game universe are - IMO - dubious.
> 
> 
> My main aim isn't to recreate the original Traveller sequence. If I'd
> wanted that, I'd just use it instead of First In  ;-)
> 
> However, I want roughly the same spread of intelligent races as in typical
> SF, ie the most common environment for sentinent life to evolve in is on
> Earthlike worlds.
> 
> I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might look
> under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary after a
> while.
> 
> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
> function using radically different biochemistries?

Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
reprinted in various places.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:52:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:52:24 -0700
Subject: [TML] Questions, questions
References: <102.1302b0d5.29db4876@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9FDE8.10303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to 
> remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible

Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's 
ridiculous as well. Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens, 
H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.

A more logical explanation would be that Gramps took H. hablis, geneered 
the species into H. sap, and re-seeded Terra, as well as Zhodane and 
Vland (and all the other planets) with the new species.

Would explain some of the more puzzling aspects of our evolution...

> 2) Can Hivers hold their breath?

Hold one under water and see...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:57:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 10:57:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <18.1cd71567.29db47c8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008701c1da78$3e3cfec0$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Tuesday, April 02, 2002 9:43 AM
CHam628781@aol.com said,

> Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs
> starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're
> borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.
>
> The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not
to
> let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can
probably
> see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information
than
> you wish to give out.

Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power
biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.  If the
security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.

> If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems
for
> opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch
> then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to
a
> specialist lock-smith.

If there is a mechanical system for opening the door than it comes down to
cutting the power to the doors locking mechanism so that you can operate the
manual.  This usually wouldn't be too difficult.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"I do not fear computers.  I fear the lack of them." -Isaac Asimov


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 19:13:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:13:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> from "laning" at Apr 02, 2002 05:29:18 AM
Message-ID: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>

Laning writes:
> One of the problems with the above approach is anyone with good credit and 
> a good business plan could build jump-5 or jump-6 ships and they would be 
> too common.  Which got me to wondering if I couldn't make the cost for jump 
> drives go up proportional to the square of the jump number.  Which in turn 
> got to me wondering if it would be a good idea to have the same type of 
> relationship for power plants and maneuver drives.  Probably yes to jump 
> drives and no to the others.

I've always wondered why ships cost so much, particularly given
the degree of automation & robot labor which ought to be available.
And the idea for starting the cost low and then going up exponentially
based on the range of jump seems like a good one, but it needs to be
justified somehow. It seems to me that in a setting where energy costs
plummet to near zero (due to access to fusion), and where labor costs
plummet to near zero (due to massive use of robotics), you end up with
an economic framework (at least at the higher tech levels) where the
only stuff that really costs a great deal of money are status items
(priced high due to cost of advertising), new technologies (due to
cost of unamortized designer hours), and rare materials (priced high
due to rarity). In terms of starships, particularly for designs which
have been around for centuries, the only one of these factors that
holds up is the rare materials factor. Hence, lanthanum comes to mind.

So making the most expensive item of a starship the jump grid makes a
certain amount of economic sense, and making the price increase
exponentally due to the necessary "density" of the grid also makes
sense. Nonetheless, it seems like a bit of an extreme proposition to
say that lanthanum costs as much as it must in order for starships to
work out as expensive as they are in Traveller. All, IMHO. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 19:21:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:21:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017775268.4978.ajackson@ping>

jimv writes:
> 
> I've always wondered why ships cost so much, particularly given
> the degree of automation & robot labor which ought to be available.

Well, you do realize that traveller starships are huge.

Basically, ships have to be expensive or you run into problems with the
economics of the setting.  If you want cheaper ships, I'd reduce the minimum
size of jump-capable ships below 100 dtons.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 19:57:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam Draper)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:57:34 -0700
Subject: [TML] Making FFS2 more like High Guard
In-Reply-To: <20020402170616.65F2C279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGAEAICFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>

I written some rules in an attempt to make FFS2 a little simpler to use.
The system covers TL 11-15, and displacements of between 10 and 1,000.
Larger ships would not be difficult to add, except that I did not want to
include all of the appropriately enormous sensors and weapons.  Mass and
surface area are not used for the most part, although they could be added
easily in optional rules.  If anyone would like to take a look, my webpage
can be found at www.lansrc.com/~draper/nsds.  I would appreciate any
suggestions or comments you might have.

Thanks,

Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:09:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:09:16 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <12d.f1855a6.29da07cd@aol.com>
References: <12d.f1855a6.29da07cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020402200916.0b4f8c3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> This is unlikely since the complexity of the ecosystem is likely to be 
> related to the available food sources at the bottom of the food chain.
These 
> will be severely limited on an Ice ball, even an old one. Hence the easy
way 
> round the problem is to cap the positive modifiers available for
non-ocean 
> worlds. I'd suggest +6 is a suitable number, altough I'm not an expert
on 
> First In so other numbres might be more suitable. 

A +6 modifier makes it impossible for complex animals to evolve under the
ice, although simple animals are still possible. Simpler lifeforms remain
rather common (37% of all icy rockballs with subsurface oceans get some
form of life).

I like this. I'll keep it for MTU.

After playing around with some modifiers for the other world types, I
finally found numbers I feel good about:

Additions to Step 15
====================
Age bonus for icy rockballs limited to +6
-5 for nitrogen worlds
-3 for ammonia worlds

This gives the following results:

Spread of complex life over all worlds in the TU
================================================
Subgiant :  1.4%
Nitrogen : 22.2%
Ammonia  : 18.7%
Desert   : 19.6%
Icy sub. :  0.0%
Earthlike: 38.1%

Chance of complex life on a world of a given type
=================================================
Subgiant :  6.3%
Nitrogen :  8.4%
Ammonia  :  7.7%
Desert   :  6.8%
Icy sub. :  0.0%
Earthlike: 77.2%

(the above data was collected from a large dataset)

I'll probably keep these numbers. In any case, the modifiers are included
in my program now, which means that the script on my webpage behaves
accordingly.

If there is enough interest, I could easily put up a script for the
unmodified rules as well.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:15:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:15:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] test (sorry)
In-Reply-To: <20020402200916.0b4f8c3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIKDJAA.tml@downport.com>

testing FROM



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:18:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:18:46 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402151321.02829d40@pop.wizard.net>

>JimV says:
<<<snip>>>
>So making the most expensive item of a starship the jump grid makes a
>certain amount of economic sense, and making the price increase
>exponentally due to the necessary "density" of the grid also makes
>sense. Nonetheless, it seems like a bit of an extreme proposition to
>say that lanthanum costs as much as it must in order for starships to
>work out as expensive as they are in Traveller. All, IMHO. -Jim

I agree.  Plus, I think jump grids are supposed to canonically always have 
the same density regardless of jump number.  I suppose we could charge a 
lot more for zuchai crystals.  A particular piece of canon I've always been 
too embarrassed to throw at my players.  I keep trying to promote Traveller 
as a relatively 'hard SF' game.  Whether it is hard, semirigid, or soft, 
zuchai crystals seem to drop it down to the level of camp, soft SF occupied 
by original Star Trek.

And I still have the problem of making hulls, manuever drives, power 
plants, and computers priced exponentially higher as their capability go 
up.  (Well, exponent of capability would be one factor in the equation.  It 
wouldn't be a raw relationship because that would make jump-6 or 
maneuever-6 just too expensive.)

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:24:03 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [TML] [ANNOUNCEMENT] Frontiers PBeM Campaign
In-Reply-To: <OF198476A5.770671F6-ON85256B8F.005B7FB4@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204022222490.168484-100000@svati>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, William Lane wrote:

><snip>
>  I'm setting up a PBeM in the Spinward Marches/Trojan Reaches
>sectors and are looking for some interested players.
></snip>
>
>I would like to play. i cant check traveller central from work so could you
>let me know what version of traveller you will be using? will the gm be
>making Pre-generated chars? if not can we request a pre generated char?
>

The game will be using GURPS with som modifications. There are some
pre-generated characters available, and I can also generated characters
according to your wishes. Just ask :-)

Cheers
Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:28:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:28:40 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <001f01c1d9c8$14f2af20$629193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <052601c1da84$f9e24b60$1f9e15ac@warrior>

surely you've heard of Sealand then :)

http://www.sealandgov.com/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)


>
> >
> > My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a
> > twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.
> >
> >
>
> I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air
force.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:26:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:26:17 +0000
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
Message-ID: <F150I5MQ8S8M30TqD1C000114f8@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
Cavalry.
     Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?
     Thanks in advance.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S. BTW, I'm recently back from a long business trip to Venezuela.  For 
those of you keeping score at home, you can now add Venezuela to the 
"Circling The Bowl" column of your nation/state scoresheets.  Indonesia and 
Zimbabwe may have had a head start, but Venezuela is coming up on the rail 
very quickly!


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:30:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:30:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017775268.4978.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402152005.027e07c0@pop.wizard.net>

Anthony Jackson writes:
>Well, you do realize that traveller starships are huge.
>
>Basically, ships have to be expensive or you run into problems with the
>economics of the setting.  If you want cheaper ships, I'd reduce the minimum
>size of jump-capable ships below 100 dtons.

I thought of that, but have three problems there.

First, it's highly unlikely tiny starships will be able to support 
themselves.  They'll be _somewhat_ cheaper to construct, but still probably 
greater than 10 megacredits, but maintenance and operations will eat the 
owner alive.

The price reduction isn't enough for purposes of MTU.

I'd like to see large starships be more practicable for governments, 
corporations, and individuals to own.  Not just make it possible for people 
of more limited means to acquire the starship equivalent of a Volkswagen 
bug or a Hyundai.

It seems to me cost of starship _should_ be driven not primarily by size of 
hull but the aggregation of components in it.  It should be possible to 
construct the equivalent of a tramp coastal freighter significantly less 
than one megacredit.  It will have bare bones navigation and maneuever 
ability, just enough to enable it to get various operating permits and just 
enough to qualify for insurance at fairly cheap rates.  If the owner(s) 
prosper, then they can upgrade and rebuild key components.  Bridge and 
electronics, drives and power plant.  But that is what starts to cost.  And 
weapon prices should remain unchanged from canon, by and large.

All of this is just _a_ Traveller universe I'd like to run.  I don't 
seriously propose it as a change to canon.  Although, hmmm maybe.  Maybe it 
would be nice to see alternate price rules offered in the books to referees 
who desire the same sort of game effects I'm talking about.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:28:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:28:12 -0700
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices
References: <ML-2.3.1017775268.4978.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CAA145C.2030502@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> jimv writes:
> 
>>I've always wondered why ships cost so much, particularly given
>>the degree of automation & robot labor which ought to be available.
> 
> 
> Well, you do realize that traveller starships are huge.

Traveller starships are vessels of a magnitude somewhere between a C5 or 
Boeing 767 and a medium sized freighter, neither of which is cheap.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:33:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:33:08 -0600
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
References: <F150I5MQ8S8M30TqD1C000114f8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAA1584.37136E3E@premier.net>


"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the
> kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal,
> pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard
> Cavalry.

According to GT:BtC, the kian is native to Prilissa (3035 Trin's Veil)
[page 121].

I don't know of kian stats in any game system.

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:41:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:41:28 +0100
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>
Message-ID: <005101c1da86$d5f683e0$5d9493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Wouldn't this make for an excellent GT supplement as well? That way, it
> might even see print...
>
>
>

You could pitch it to Quiklink as part of the PDF line supporting
T20/CT.....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:44:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:44:18 +0000
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
Message-ID: <F127LDp7mvjkO22ZhCl0000dc60@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?"


Mr. Kwon,

     Robots IMTU are little more than mobile, expert systems.  A pretty lame 
take on the subject, but creativity isn't one of my strong suits.
     The more robots deal with humans or operate within a general human 
setting, the more likely they'll be the upright, bipedal, anthromorphic 
robots of classic sci-fi.  A two-legged, vaguely human shaped, robot with 
arms and hands will be preferred as a steward or medic by most folks over a 
metal box on treads with tentacles.  Robots with "hands" will also be able 
to use the same utensils and tools the rest of the crew uses.
     Robots in industrial settings will be far less anthromorphic, in those 
settings function will drive form.
     The inclusion of the robot operations skill in later CT seemed to 
support my take on the subject.  While anyone could "use" a robot for simple 
purposes, only skilled operators could make full use of a robot's programmed 
skill set.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:51:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:51:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402152005.027e07c0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017780666.495.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> 
> I thought of that, but have three problems there.
> 
> First, it's highly unlikely tiny starships will be able to support 
> themselves.  They'll be _somewhat_ cheaper to construct, but still probably
>  greater than 10 megacredits, but maintenance and operations will eat the 
> owner alive.

Merchant ships pretty much need to be several tens of megacredits to have any
chance of business survival anyway.  The economics of scale at the low end are
too large.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:45:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:45:37 +1000
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices [was Re: Living...on an Airplane]
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> In other words, reduce hull, computer, maneuver, and power plant
> costs by probably two orders of magnitude but jump drives by only
> one.  Which still doesn't work out quite as tidily as I'd like.

That would start to eat into my suspension of disbelief,
unfortunately.  I would expect a spaceship the size of a small mansion
to cost at least a similar amount, and probably quite a bit more.
After all, a planet-based house doesn't have to protect you against
solar flares, vacuum, extremes of heat and cold, or move at thousands
of kilometres per second.


> I would like it if you could commission say a really nice yacht for 3 
> megacredits or less.  Which is still a huge sum of money.

Well, you can think of a 100 dton spaceship as being about the volume
of 100-foot luxury yachts, which apparently have a price tag of a few
million US dollars.  I don't think a spacecraft should cost a lot
less; quite the reverse.


>  Weaponry and shield costs would remain unmodified.  Or a 200-ton
> free trader for maybe just under 1 megacredit, built new.

My figures get close to this *without* a jump drive, at 1.5 MCr.  I
get jump-1 engine plus minimum fuel at 1.4 MCr, so getting close.


> Which got me to wondering if I couldn't make the cost for jump
> drives go up proportional to the square of the jump number.

IMO, they ought to.  Supposedly, the difficulty of building jump
drives with successive capabilities increases per *tech level*, so it
must be greatly more difficult.  At least comparable to the difference
between prop-driven craft and jets, for every jump number increase.

If you're fiddling with the figures, a doubling of cost per unit
volume each jump number wouldn't be out of line IMO.  That could give
a jump engine cost for a 200 dton ship of 1.2 MCr for jump-1, up to
140 MCr for jump-6. These figures would be in CrImp, not local
currency.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:49:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:49:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sW9A-0001AK-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> on 4/1/02 10:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com
> wrote: > > I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that
> difficult to > build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate
> power > battery.  
> 
> I have yet to be convinced that such things will work, and be at all
> effective.  Particularly as the  strength of burst will be inversely
> proportional to the to the square of the distance.  Has anyone
> actually seen a demonstration where this works?  It should be rather
> easy to test.
> 
> Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical
> martial arts 'death touch'.

Look at the article about them in the New Scientist of July 1, 2000

or look at

www.infowar.com/mil_c4i/mil_c4i8.html-ssi 
www.dallas.net/~pevler/jec.htm 
www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/ news/RFWeap.htm 

or look up flux compressors

The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures 
I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius 
kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:50:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:50:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I keep looking at the p-H3 reaction, and although it has a 
high hurdle for starting, it yields more energy per unit 
fuel, and is aneutronic.

Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
doesn't seem to be that hard to find.

It looks like you could build a much smaller H3 fusion 
reactor, not just from the standpoint of overall yield per 
unit fuel, but also because no energy would be wasted 
accelerating neutrons (70% of the D-T cycle is neutron 
energy), and there would be no need to have neutron 
shielding.  I can almost see the argument that the only way 
to get a "tabletop" fusion reactor would be to run it on H3.

Looking for a handwave for H3 reactors...

If you were suddenly able to take a TL15 (CT High Guard) 
powerplant, and say that an H3 reactor for the same output 
had a displacement 70% less...  the fuel consumption would 
also be smaller...  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:57:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:57:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017784677.311.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> I keep looking at the p-H3 reaction, and although it has a 
> high hurdle for starting, it yields more energy per unit 
> fuel, and is aneutronic.
> 
> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.

Well, it has essentially no natural abundance on earth, since most helium on
earth, IIRC, comes from alpha decay.  Aside from this problem, D-He3 is
considered a promising second-generation fusion fuel (p-He3 is much harder to
pull off, and no more useful).
> 
> It looks like you could build a much smaller H3 fusion 
> reactor, not just from the standpoint of overall yield per 
> unit fuel, but also because no energy would be wasted 
> accelerating neutrons (70% of the D-T cycle is neutron 
> energy), and there would be no need to have neutron 
> shielding.  I can almost see the argument that the only way 
> to get a "tabletop" fusion reactor would be to run it on H3.

You'll still get a significant chunk of high energy radiation.
> 
> Looking for a handwave for H3 reactors...
> 
> If you were suddenly able to take a TL15 (CT High Guard) 
> powerplant, and say that an H3 reactor for the same output 
> had a displacement 70% less...  the fuel consumption would 
> also be smaller...  

TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.  One
assumes the neutron problems have been solved.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:04:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:04:52 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sWO7-0004I7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:

> I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
> 
> (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> 
> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

In Jeopardy mode:

Heretics for 100: Who is Galileo

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:22:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:22:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sleeping In Starports, without Jimmy Hoffa
Message-ID: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.sleepinginairports.net/airports.htm

I remember (or my back remembers) sleeping in the airport at 
Frankfurt, waiting for a morning flight.

I suppose that the orbital facility might frown on this, 
considering that I would not only be taking up space, but 
breathing the air as well.

One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the 
price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial 
cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very 
much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be 
possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for 
mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the 
fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator 
runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to 
ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of 
the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.  The 
same device could also be used in recycling to return 
anything to its component atoms.

So, is that how the recycler works on the ship?  Is there 
some plasma separator in there, and it's all reduced to 
whatever the ship's environmental controls are interested 
in?  Dump the other ions into space?

Nice place for the Jimmy Hoffas of the future...

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:27:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:27:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16sW9A-0001AK-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B8CF6F3E.3427B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 1:49 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>> Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical
>> martial arts 'death touch'.
> 
> Look at the article about them in the New Scientist of July 1, 2000
> 
> or look at
> 
> www.infowar.com/mil_c4i/mil_c4i8.html-ssi
> www.dallas.net/~pevler/jec.htm
> www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/ news/RFWeap.htm
> 
> or look up flux compressors
> 
> The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures
> I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius
> kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.

Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find anything.  OK,
I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite terrorist building
these?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:43:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tim Little wrote:
>laning wrote:
> > In other words, reduce hull, computer, maneuver, and power plant
> > costs by probably two orders of magnitude but jump drives by only
> > one.  Which still doesn't work out quite as tidily as I'd like.
>
>That would start to eat into my suspension of disbelief,
>unfortunately.  I would expect a spaceship the size of a small mansion
>to cost at least a similar amount, and probably quite a bit more.
>After all, a planet-based house doesn't have to protect you against
>solar flares, vacuum, extremes of heat and cold, or move at thousands
>of kilometres per second.

Yes, but it's also the same size as a big quonset hut used as a storage 
shed and the hull doesn't need to cost a whole lot more.  In fact, given 
manufacturing capabilities of TTL 12+ industrial worlds, it may well cost 
less, complete with being airtight, radiation proof, and bracing sufficient 
to hold up against maneuvering stresses.

> > I would like it if you could commission say a really nice yacht for 3
> > megacredits or less.  Which is still a huge sum of money.
>
>Well, you can think of a 100 dton spaceship as being about the volume
>of 100-foot luxury yachts, which apparently have a price tag of a few
>million US dollars.  I don't think a spacecraft should cost a lot
>less; quite the reverse.
But the absolute cheapest spacecraft, with hardly yacht-like standards of 
creature comforts or other furnishings, costs about ten times what earth 
yachts cost.



> >  Weaponry and shield costs would remain unmodified.  Or a 200-ton
> > free trader for maybe just under 1 megacredit, built new.
>
>My figures get close to this *without* a jump drive, at 1.5 MCr.  I
>get jump-1 engine plus minimum fuel at 1.4 MCr, so getting close.

Which edition of Traveller rules are you going by?  I think we're talking 
apples and oranges to each other.

LBB 2 says 10 megacredits for the smallest jump drive.  I only have first 
edition (buggy) High Guard, and can't find _either_ of my MT Referee's 
Manuals.  My preferred ship construction rules are MT, since they're all 
together in one place, I like the fuel consumption better, I like being 
forced to balance both mass and volume, and I like Agility.  TNE's FFS goes 
way too far for me in complexity and is only rewarding for plucking certain 
components out of, not when building entire ships (IMHO).  T4's ship design 
rules...the less said, the better.  Although I intend to buy pieces of GT, 
ship construction isn't one of them.

I'd like to use MT rules, but don't have access to them.  IIRC, MT ship 
construction costs were very much in line with LBB 2 costs in most 
situations.  A little bit cheaper if you were going with minimum 
configurations, but not a lot.  I won't use the first edition High Guard in 
this discussion, since we all know they required major revision.  I think 
the standard free trader had major volume discounts etc. and MT sold it for 
something under 25 (?) megacredits because of its standardization.

Costs for the major components of an LBB 2 minimum configuration 200-ton 
ship follow.
200t hull:  8 megacredits
Type A power plant:  8 megacredits
Type A maneuver drive:  4 megacredits
Type A jump drive:  10 megacredits
Model 1 computer with no software:  2 megacredits
Total so far:  32 megacredits

No matter how cheap the hull for the above gets, the other major components 
are going to be a minimum of 24 megacredits.  <Doctor Evil voice> That's 
twenty-four _million_ of your Imperial credits. </Doctor Evil voice>  LOL.

Actually, LBB 2 sells a 200t hull at major discount for standardization, 
along with five other hull sizes.  "Custom" hull sizes are priced at 
cr100,000 per ton.

I'd like to see a 200-dt cost, for example, cr400,000, and the cost of the 
entire rest of a complete ship that's mostly just empty hull for cargo 
space add up to around another cr400,000.  Even then, a PC or group of PCs 
who are able to sell a ship for approaching 1 megacredit can almost run 
amok through the shopping lists for everything else they want.  I can see 
major discounts for buying/selling used, but I'm not comfortable going 
along with buying an old but still serviceable ship for one-tenth of 
original price.  If it's still serviceable, it shouldn't get lower than 
one-quarter of original price.  The only exception would be if a major 
component is likely to need replacing within the next year, that would 
greatly lower the cost.

I like the idea of hulls being the biggest expense in building a low-cost 
ship but I'm still looking at reducing their cost by an order of magnitude 
compared to LBB 2.  Once you buy a hull in decent condition, with a 
lanthanum jump grid, it is an attractive notion that the other components 
can be upgraded (or downgraded) over time.  Without requiring a sum equal 
to the GDP of some Third World countries.

I can rewrite prices to get pretty close to the effect I'm looking 
for.  But that would be inconvenient for my players.  The elegant (or is it 
lazy?) solution would be to tell players to just shift the decimal one or 
two places for each of the major starship components.  That way they could 
look at their rule book during the design sequence and not have to do a lot 
of mental gymnastics to figure out the impact of my house rule on prices.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:58:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:58:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CF6F3E.3427B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <E16sW9A-0001AK-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402175058.028900a0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn says, about EMP pipe bombs:

>Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find anything.  OK,
>I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite terrorist building
>these?

Off the top of my head:

What is its effectiveness against _shielded_ devices?

Terrorists usually like nice dramatic, visible results.  For immediate 
gratification, and for its propaganda value on the nightly television 
news.  EMPs are less than completely satisfying in this regard.

It's relatively new, give it more time.

ObTrav:  Most developed worlds will have good enough shielding in standard 
equipment that terrorists with EMP bombs can accomplish very little.

--Laning

PS  Wasn't an EMP bomb a plot device in the recent remake of 'Oceans Eleven'?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:53:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:53:24 -0600
Subject: [TML] GT starports and fuel
Message-ID: <3CAA3664.E63D6D4F@mail.cswnet.com>

Some ideas, questions, and thoughts to kick around....

First, A fix proposal:
Original text>
Page 72: "The average port should incorporate tankage at least equal to
.06 times the weekly displacement tonnage of starship served."

Additional text>
begining at the end of "served, times the distance in parsecs to the 
closest planetary system. The closest planetary system used for this
purpose may not be interdicted."

Second, the fuel blimp issue p73
Questions:
Could one use fuel blimps to pick up fuel from asteroid belts, assuming
that such belts had ice and the fuel blimp would be picking up the fuel
from a fuel mining station?

Text:"GM should ... assign a small craft cost of Mcr.001 to Mcr1
(averaging Mcr.01)per dt of total weekly starship traffic"

Why is the purpose have having a variation in cost for fuel blimps?
Why would it not be per dt of total weekly starship fuel used?

Three, conversion to CT/HG2
Anyone using GT:Starports for CT/HG2 purposes must remember to add
powerplant fuel to the port tankage requirement. 
Example: Arba has a weekly starship dt of 1050. For GT purposes,
assuming 3 day supply min., 1050*.06*2parsecs=126dt jumpfuel A full week
supply would be double this, 252dt. For CT/HG2, assume a minimum power
plant equal to minimum jump distance; in Arba's case, 2 parsecs.
1050*.01*2=21 for 4 weeks of operation, 10.5 for 2 weeks (enough for 
minimum jump, assuming no bumpy ride). This leaves us with a full weeks
supply for HG2 purposes of 262.5dt.

.01Cr for your thoughts...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:28:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:28:15 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402175058.028900a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8CF7E8F.34298%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 2:58 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Off the top of my head:
> 
> What is its effectiveness against _shielded_ devices?

How many targets are likely to be shielded?
> 
> Terrorists usually like nice dramatic, visible results.  For immediate
> gratification, and for its propaganda value on the nightly television
> news.  EMPs are less than completely satisfying in this regard.

Not necessarily.  There are sophisticated terrorists, particularly state
sponsored ones.  Think of the impact EMP could have on banks and credit
firms.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:32:03 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy Analysis
Message-ID: <20020402233203.5927.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I would assume (there I go with my assumptions again)
that anyone willing to commit piracy would also be
willing to skip. And it's much, much easier to just
skip.
END QUOTE

Except some of the things that make piracy hard such
as always on transponders and huge sensor arrays, also
make it hard to skip. After all there is no point
skipping if you can't sell your ship our make money
through trade or piracy or smuggling. It would be
easier to decalre yourself bankrupt. That is of course
if MyMines don't get hold of you.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:43:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 01:43:39 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <20020402200103.89CDB279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204030126270.19159-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Bruce Johnson writes:
>CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
>>1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to
>>remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible
>
>Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
>ridiculous as well.

No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H. erectus_
and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
showing up as early as that.

But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In
the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place
_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.

>Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens,
>H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.

_H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.

[*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.


Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:49:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204030126270.19159-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <B8CF8370.3429F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 3:43 PM, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen at rancke@diku.dk wrote:

> _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
> mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
> reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
> but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
> 
> [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.

Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are
interfertile.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:56:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:56:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #372 - 42 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020402170616.65F2C279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402155400.00a4c780@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 02 Apr 2002 08:03:56 -0800, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> 
wrote:

>I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
>
>(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
>
>100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

*scratches head*  Knowing Galileo is geeky?  I thought that was called 
"educated."


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:05:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:05:43 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> In fact, given manufacturing capabilities of TTL 12+ industrial
> worlds, it may well cost less, complete with being airtight,
> radiation proof, and bracing sufficient to hold up against
> maneuvering stresses.

That's an argument for making *everything* cost less, not just
starships.  In fact, GT *does* make high-tech worlds a lot richer than
low-tech ones, so this matches pretty well.


> But the absolute cheapest spacecraft, with hardly yacht-like
> standards of creature comforts or other furnishings, costs about ten
> times what earth yachts cost.

I get the cheapest manned interplanetary spacecraft as costing about
50 kCr new at TL 10.  That's not a lot more than an expensive new car.


> Which edition of Traveller rules are you going by?  I think we're talking 
> apples and oranges to each other.

Probably.  I'm using GURPS Traveller and GURPS Vehicles, and dividing
jump drive costs by 10 (but no other changes).


> Although I intend to buy pieces of GT, ship construction isn't one
> of them.

The basic GURPS Traveller book has a modular starship construction
system, so you might find it hard to avoid :)


> Costs for the major components of an LBB 2 minimum configuration 200-ton 
> ship follow.
> 200t hull:  8 megacredits

Ouch!  Under GURPS Vehicles, I can get the cost down to under 0.02 MCr!
(if it doesn't have to land on a planet)

> Type A power plant:  8 megacredits

Double-ouch!  Much less than 0.1 MCr under GT (depending on other
ship's systems).

> Type A maneuver drive:  4 megacredits

Triple-ouch!  If you can accept low acceleration, this could be as low
as you like in most design systems.

> Type A jump drive:  10 megacredits

Yeah, about what GURPS Traveller uses.  By far the biggest expense of
a starship, but not relevant to a mere spaceship.

> Model 1 computer with no software:  2 megacredits

Quadruple-ouch!  You can get away with a few tens of thousands at most
for a bare redundant computer system under GURPS.


Wow, the LBBs really do hit your wallet *hard*!  I suggest using some
other design system if you want lower costs.  *Any* other design
system.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:07:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:07:30 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
Message-ID: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
But your troubles are only just *beginning* -- their
cargo manifest includes 10 dtons of live penguins ...
END QUOTE

PC's on a derelict free trader:
PC1: "Hmmm, blood everywhere but no bodies"
PC2: "The only thing on the manifest is penguins, yet
the cargo bay is empty"
PC3: "Who would slaughter an entire ships crew for
penguins?"
PC2: "They also took the small craft"
PC1: "Whats that noise?"
PC3: "What noise?"
PC1: "Sounded like flapping of some kind"
PC2: "Lets get back to the ship"
PC1: "Okay lets go. <speaking into com> Hey Samantha,
light up the drives where out of here"
<No response>
PC1: "Samantha?, do you read?"
PC2: "Hey wheres Jimmy?"
PC1: <Spinning around to search for Jimmy> "Jimmy,
jimmy?"
<END RECORDING>

James







=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:08:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #372 - 42 msgs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402155400.00a4c780@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <B8CF87E8.342AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 3:56 PM, Kelly St.Clair at kellys@efn.org wrote:

>> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
> 
> *scratches head*  Knowing Galileo is geeky?  I thought that was called
> "educated."

It's even in the digest:

"When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:16:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:16:28 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
Message-ID: <20020403001628.32715.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

Speaking of villians with english accents reminds me
of a scene from Buffy:the vampire slayer. The english
librarian nearly gets killed by a demon and somebody
says:
"I bet your whole life flashed before your eyes, cup
of tea, cup of tea, nearly got shagged, cup of tea"

ObTrav: Sneaky intelligence agents have french
accents, even if they are Zhodani ;) Speaking of which
what would a Zhodani accent be comparable too?

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:28:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:28:43 PST
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204010842.AAA08687@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20402.152843.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?  What does canon say on =
>>this?
>
> Canon says little that I know of.  Generally, I assume it's hard.
>
>>Some parameters here:  I'm not talking about hijacking a ship, nor am I =
>>talking about ship theft incidental to piracy.
>>
>>Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved in stealing a =
>>starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.
>>
>>It seems to me the problem can be considered as four separate issues:

>>3.  Entering the vessel.
>>
>>Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let you in. <g> =20
>>
>>How do starships determine who to admit?  Whoever holds the key?  =
>>Voiceprints?  Biometrics?  Passwords?  Some combination?  Given =
>>sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar (doubtful) or a cutting =
>>torch (probably)? =20
>
> For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't get
> in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
> send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
> do the ship much good, however.

Also, it can't be *too* hard. there will be lots of situations when the
crew wants to get inside *fast*, or they may be a bit "damaged" or
"incapacitated". Or both.

Entry should be merely difficult enough to dissaude *amatuers*. Pros
will get in anyway, so the extra efforts isn't really justifiable in
terms of cost/benefit. 

>>Having forced your way in what active countermeasures do you have to =
>>defeat?  Does the ship send combat bots?  Does the environmental system =
>>become hostile?  Does an anti theft program deliberately destroy the =
>>Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the j-drive useless?
>
> Most likely, none of the above; the ship yells for help and goes into 
> lockdown mode.  Paranoid owners could easily equip the ship with kill
> switches in a few critical concealed junctions.

"Mantrap" type defenses (ie possibly injurious or lethal defenses not
under human control) are a great way to get yourself in *big* trouble
at least in most of the civilized world now. 

As an example, while many jurisdictions say that you can shoot an
intruder who invades your home while you are inside, those same
jurisdictions will be all over you for setting a beartrap when you
aren't home.

The Imperium may be looser about this, but I wouldn't count on it too
far. 

Also, do you *really* want to risk getting killed if there's a bug in
those automated defenses?

>>4.  Establishing vessel control.
>>
>>Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do you get the starship =
>>to respond to your commands?  When you plop down on the pilot's couch =
>>what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver drive?  =
>>Again, is there a key?  Biometrics?  PIN numbers?  How much trouble =
>>would there be in performing the starship analog of a hot-wire job?
>
> For higher tech ships, most likely you're defeating biometrics, plus a
> rather smart robot brain.  Unless you can steal startup information from
> the owner, most likely you're talking hours or days of work, particularly
> if kill switches have been installed.

Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...

But the biggest problem with stealing a starship on the ground will be
getting away. 

At all but the smallest ports, it'd be rather like trying to steal an
airliner from an airport, or a large ocean going vessel from a port.
The tower or the portmaster is going to want to know why you are making
an unscheduled departure. And if you don't have good answers, the Coast
Guard or Air Guard will be there in a hurry.

Stealing a orbit capable vessel (shuttle, etc) would likely be easier.
More like stealing small yacht or a small planes. Way too many of them
and they don't follow schedules. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:38:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:38:10 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>

> From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
> Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's
> kind of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not doing
> any more jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the
> character becomes motivated to take this one, last job.

In fact it's such a "classic bit" that I am considering playing it as a solo
game.

Unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable mission!  : (

I've got a couple of ideas about how to run it, though.  They might be of
interest to the other solo players on the list.

I'm thinking of having a list of possible "patrons", and not deciding which
is actually responsible until my character goes through the exercise of
finding out.  I might also have a set of contacts and potential allies, who
have to be approached and brought into the mission.  All of this takes time,
and possibly travel, and may not be successful.  There will also be other
factions interfering - again, these would be anonymous until identified the
hard way.  There would be some "just plain random" encounters as well.

The idea would be lots of paranoia.  Who is that that is tailing you?  Were
those thugs in the alley working for the other side, or were they just
thugs?  Who were the guys with the plasma guns that blew them away?

Of course there would have to be a list of mapped locations, with some
related NPCs.

Success would come from mobilising your own possible assets, finding out who
else is in the game, thwarting their plans, and working towards your own
devastating exercise in turning the tables on the jerks blackmailing you.

The plot itself would be a McGuffin hunt, shaped by "just in time" random
generation, plus incidents of "a man with a gun enters the room".  It could
be hopelessly convoluted and pointless, or it could be The Maltese Falcon.
Or The Millenium Falcon.

Now all I need is the time and energy to develop these ideas...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:12:07 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7@aol.com>

--part1_ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power
biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.  If the
security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.
 
   Hmmm...A goofy idea just occured to me. Someone outside in their suit 
could manually crank open this small access plate that'd allow him to place 
his head inside. His helmet's visor could then be opened (by servos?) so he 
could do face-to-scanner interaction with the ship, and thus, get the ship to 
open the hatch. Try to fake out the computer and you suddenly discover your 
head is inside a guillotine. Sure wouldn't like to be there when the computer 
decides to acquire a glitch in its programming :)
  -Ken-

"You are born with the yearning arrow, my Glynna.  It is not a happy thing
to possess... It points to the stars, and when it cannot reach them, it falls 
back to pierce your heart."
    - Wind (Isobelle Carmody, "Darkfall")
    




--part1_ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
<BR>intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power
<BR>biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit. &nbsp;If the
<BR>security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
<BR>vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
<BR>other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.
<BR> </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Hmmm...A goofy idea just occured to me. Someone outside in their suit could manually crank open this small access plate that'd allow him to place his head inside. His helmet's visor could then be opened (by servos?) so he could do face-to-scanner interaction with the ship, and thus, get the ship to open the hatch. Try to fake out the computer and you suddenly discover your head is inside a guillotine. Sure wouldn't like to be there when the computer decides to acquire a glitch in its programming :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">"You are born with the yearning arrow, my Glynna. &nbsp;It is not a happy thing
<BR>to possess... It points to the stars, and when it cannot reach them, it falls 
<BR>back to pierce your heart."
<BR>    - Wind (Isobelle Carmody, "Darkfall")</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:16:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:16:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CF7E8F.34298%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402175058.028900a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402195900.00a95950@pop.wizard.net>

At 03:28 PM 4/2/02 -0800, you wrote:
>on 4/2/02 2:58 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
>
> > Off the top of my head:
> >
> > What is its effectiveness against _shielded_ devices?
>
>How many targets are likely to be shielded?
Government property and some industrial/commercial stuff.

I guess one of the best targets for the determined Luddite with an EMP bomb 
(hmm, is that an oxymoron?) would be MAE EAST.  I doubt it's shielded well 
enough.


> >
> > Terrorists usually like nice dramatic, visible results.  For immediate
> > gratification, and for its propaganda value on the nightly television
> > news.  EMPs are less than completely satisfying in this regard.
>
>Not necessarily.  There are sophisticated terrorists, particularly state
>sponsored ones.  Think of the impact EMP could have on banks and credit
>firms.
Yeah, I know.  :-<

At the risk of offending or jangling someone's nerves, those people still 
seem to prefer driving airliners full of avgas into the World Trade Center 
over something that invisibly makes machines stop working.  Partly for 
propaganda as stated above, but also because I think bin Laden and the 
hijackers who did those acts are sick pukes and get their jollies in sick ways.

Lest anyone think I am asserting that the very nature of terrorists makes 
us safe from any of them ever trying an EMP attack, I don't.  In fact, I 
think it is inevitable.  Just as I thought crashing a hijacked airliner 
into the Pentagon or White House or Capitol dome has been inevitable since 
it first occurred to me sometime...sometime around when the first three 
LBBs were published.  Not that there's any connection between the 
two.  It's just that even perfectly innocent people were dreaming up such 
things 25 years ago, and it turns out someone should have been taking those 
stray ideas much more seriously.

If the Gruppenfuhrer for Fatherland Security, er um I mean the Director of 
Homeland Security, ever gets around to it then he should already be pushing 
for hardening key governmental and commercial facilities and infrastructure 
like our power grid.  And looking for ways to trace sales of the rarer 
components required for assembling an EMP bomb capable of affecting a large 
area.

See guys?  Living in undefended New Zealand has its advantages.  All you 
have to do is worry about what to do with all that sheep dung and 
wool.  The folks in the States have to worry about junk like this.

Ever the tenacious one, I seek an ObTrav.  The Ine Givar come to mind, and 
what might their history be with successful and less than successful 
attempts at terror attacks?  Including what they may or may not have tried 
with EMP bombs and it went if they did.  We already know of that unpleasant 
nuclear thing.

--Laning (who often wonders if the National Security Agency in the US is 
driven buggy trying to figure out how to deal with the content that gamers 
put on the Internet)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:23:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:23:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8d0082a2e41@[143.232.119.186]>

On rule of thumb in security is that the hard you make it for 
unwarranted intrusion, the harder you make it for authorized people 
(you can't wear gloves for the thumb print, a cold alters your voice, 
etc.)

In some ways you can claim an entry code is the most secure (you can 
have the computer detect people trying to cycle through all the 
possible combinations), but in the end anything will be bypassible if 
you try hard enough.

Now starships are valuable, and there seems to be examples of people 
leaving them unattended, so I would guess the security to prevent 
intrusion would be high enough that it would be take a lot of effort 
to get in.  The crew will have to accept difficulties in getting in. 
That assumes the ship is unattended.  If there is crew on board, the 
security will be much lighter, just enough to keep someone from 
stolling on board.

I doubt security internally would be that great since the main goal 
will be to keep unauthorized people from wandering around and you 
don't want to obstruct a crewman in a hurry.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:26:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:26:08 +0200
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020403012608.08423dc6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.

Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:29:05 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
> reprinted in various places.

I Google'd around, but all I could find was webpages mentioning it. It
would seem that it is available in various paper reprints, but not on the
web. Sad...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:31:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020402.173115.-2657.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:12:07 EST MurfNMurf@aol.com writes:
>
>    Hmmm...A goofy idea just occured to me. Someone outside in their 
suit  could manually crank open this small access plate that'd allow him 
to place  his head inside. His helmet's visor could then be opened (by 
servos?) so he  could do face-to-scanner interaction with the ship, and
thus, get  the ship to  open the hatch. 

Open the pod bay doors Hal.

I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now.

Hal, open the pod bay doors.

I'm sorry Dave.

HAL! 

Yes Dave.

Hal, I've got to go to the bathroom!

I'm sorry Dave



..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:28:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:28:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
References: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>

At 4:20 AM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example. 
>Paying passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them 
>through the passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger areas 
>of the ship.  Each keycard is unique to each passenger, and so the 
>same card gets them into their own private cabin.  Crew will have 
>similar cards, that give them more freedom, and exactly how much and 
>which greater freedoms would depend on the crew member's billet.

I really don't see the crew needing card to move about the ship. 
That is going to get old in a hurry, could be a problem in an 
emergency, and is unecessary.

In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go 
where they shouldn't.  You wouldn't actually lock things unless they 
were particularly sensitive or valuable or someone had leasure to get 
into somplace they shouldn't (like an isolated closet).  This is 
similar to what ships use today.

-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:37:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:37:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <20402.152843.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204010842.AAA08687@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>

The esteemed Leonard Erickson wrote, including quotes from Texas Redshift:
> > For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't get
> > in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
> > send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
> > do the ship much good, however.
>
>Also, it can't be *too* hard. there will be lots of situations when the
>crew wants to get inside *fast*, or they may be a bit "damaged" or
>"incapacitated". Or both.
>
>Entry should be merely difficult enough to dissaude *amatuers*. Pros
>will get in anyway, so the extra efforts isn't really justifiable in
>terms of cost/benefit.
I agree but only a little bit.  The penalty when you do lose a ship (and 
probably some lives at the same time) is very large.  Typically hundreds of 
millions.  Yes, it is a touchstone of security that no security system is 
perfect, and you shouldn't spend excess effort on attempting to perfect 
your security beyond a point that is appropriate to your degree of risk and 
the cost if security fails.  Even one fat trader or passenger liner lost is 
going to drive everyone's insurance rates through the roof and may risk 
putting the insurer financially on the ropes.  If nobody else does, then 
insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security 
measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time 
and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.

The military will probably take a very different approach.  They'll rely on 
numerous armed crewmembers and armed ships in the area, and not bother with 
all the automated stuff.  The personnel and other vessels have to be there 
anyway, it isn't like it costs them extra.

> > Most likely, none of the above; the ship yells for help and goes into
> > lockdown mode.  Paranoid owners could easily equip the ship with kill
> > switches in a few critical concealed junctions.
>
>"Mantrap" type defenses (ie possibly injurious or lethal defenses not
>under human control) are a great way to get yourself in *big* trouble
>at least in most of the civilized world now.
I agree this will be a problem, but the Traveller universe's legal 
standards are not the same as the USA's.  As we all have reminded ourselves 
in the past during other discussions.  I did allude in my own earlier post 
to liability insurance possibly being voided by installation of security 
hardware capable of inflicting physical harm.  Even my trick with the grav 
plates may be rather expensive to get insurance for.  (Personally, I'd want 
it anyway, just not in sleeping quarters.)  IMTU, a ship without valid 
insurance finds itself unable to get permits for travelling most places in 
the Imperium.  Starport authorities don't want them around, booking agents 
won't want to sell passenger tickets for them, etc.

Oh, I'm not sure that the phrase "kill switches" was supposed to mean 
mantrap defenses.  I think it may have meant disabling critical ship's 
systems.  Perhaps a triphammer smashes the zuchai crystals.  <G>


>As an example, while many jurisdictions say that you can shoot an
>intruder who invades your home while you are inside, those same
>jurisdictions will be all over you for setting a beartrap when you
>aren't home.
>
>The Imperium may be looser about this, but I wouldn't count on it too
>far.
>
>Also, do you *really* want to risk getting killed if there's a bug in
>those automated defenses?
Few will, so even if they're able to obtain insurance and overcome the 
other issues, the minute someone points out to the risk to them of being 
hoist by their own petard, most owners/captains will drop the idea.

>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
>someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
>attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...
I see we've met some of the same player characters.  :->


>But the biggest problem with stealing a starship on the ground will be
>getting away.

Yes.  Exactly.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:34:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:34:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204030134.DFP01107@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite 
>terrorist building these?
>--

You have me there.  I think that there are a fair number of 
people on this list who are capable of manufacturing a flux 
compression generator, and a vircator (or obtaining something 
like it).

None of the technology involved in making such a device is 
restricted in the US other than the explosives.

It reminds me of a railgun in reverse, except you have an 
explosive driving the short back down the gun, and the power 
has nowhere to go except into a smaller and smaller area.  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:36:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
In-Reply-To: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]>

In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would 
tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary 
arrays.....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:40:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:40:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204030140.DFP01461@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>How many targets are likely to be shielded?

The literature I've been reading says that if your equipment 
is not completely enclosed in a Faraday cage, and you're 
inside the effective radius, your equipment is toast.

Antennae and metal cables that protrude outside the cage, or 
fiber cables that go through metal conduits will act as a 
waveguide if the bomb uses microwaves.

Think of the kind of shielding that was necessary for 
shielding against nuclear EMP.  The conventional EMP bomb has 
two advantages: longer pulse time and tunable frequency (by 
design).
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:41:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:41:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com> <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>


"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
> In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
> tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
> arrays.....

Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:46:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:46:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <20020403001628.32715.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402203829.027db060@pop.wizard.net>

James asks:
>ObTrav: Sneaky intelligence agents have french
>accents, even if they are Zhodani ;) Speaking of which
>what would a Zhodani accent be comparable too?

People who use the "zh" sound a lot?  Perhaps they are all French, since 
typically the letter J is pronounced as a zh sound en Francais.  Wargamers 
being the lot we typically are, it is hard to keep them from sinking into 
Monty Python and the Holy Grail shtick whenever French accents come up, 
however.  That is not desirable.

I'm drawing a blank for "zh" speakers.  Places that are vaguely middle 
eastern or central asian come to mind for some reason, but nothing specific.

I've always _wanted_ to give my Zhos accents, so this is definitely a 
worthwhile thread if we can derive an answer.

OTOH, it's silly to imagine that all people in a star-spanning empire have 
the same accent.  I mean, we can't even get all people on Terra to have the 
same accent.  There are hundreds of languages here, often extremely 
different from each other.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:45:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:45:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204030145.DFP01794@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>See guys?  Living in undefended New Zealand has its 
>advantages.  All you have to do is worry about what to do 
>with all that sheep dung and wool.  The folks in the States 
>have to worry about junk like this.
>

Well, they do have to worry about their government going 
silly on them.  That, and there's a story about a coffee 
roaster who was forced to stop roasting coffee at all hours 
(seems the neighbors didn't like the smell).

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:57:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:57:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>

>Tim Little, after comparing GURPS ship construction costs to LBB 
>construction costs, says:
>Wow, the LBBs really do hit your wallet *hard*!  I suggest using some
>other design system if you want lower costs.  *Any* other design
>system.

Actually, all the nonGURPS Traveller ship construction rules will produce 
results _much_ closer to the LBB prices than to GURPS prices.  And from 
what I've skimmed in the GURPS rules, I'd rather not switch to them, 
thanks.  I like MT ship building.

I think the original idea behind such expensive ships was to avoid having a 
Jetsons future where everyone can drive the family car to another planet 
for a weekend jaunt.  They wanted to have put high, but not impossibly 
high, barriers to frequent travel between star systems.  Otherwise there's 
no reason to believe that each the civilizations on each planet will remain 
distinctly different from each other after 1,100 years of being in the same 
Imperium and rubbing elbows all the time.

If you want worlds to have truly unique and _alien_ differences from each 
other, then you have to make travel between worlds be rare.   Which also 
makes the traveller (our intrepid player character) herself be rare and 
special.  That adds to escapist pleasure of roleplaying.

And I buy into all that, I do.  But I think we won't significantly alter 
traffic levels if we make ships hugely cheaper but still the province only 
of the very wealthy, a well funded corporation, or a government.  In fact, 
I am suspicious that canonical ship construction is so expensive that it 
can't properly account for the numbers of trade vessels that are required 
to support the massive trade going on between developed worlds.  Not that 
I've crunched any numbers, mind you.  Just talking through my...hat.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:05:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:05:35 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402205809.027d9ba0@pop.wizard.net>

At Alan Bradley quoted and wrote:
> > From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
> > Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's
> > kind of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not doing
> > any more jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the
> > character becomes motivated to take this one, last job.
>
>In fact it's such a "classic bit" that I am considering playing it as a solo
>game.
>
>Unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable mission!  : (
>
>I've got a couple of ideas about how to run it, though.  They might be of
>interest to the other solo players on the list.
I'm interested.  Especially if you can come up with practical ways for the 
bad guys to throw some real surprises at you.  Maybe all those with 
interest in solo play should write our own interactive scripts to post on 
Web sites and then go play on each other's Web sites?

(I'm definitely interested in seeing how successful a game design the new 
NeverWinter Nights will be.  And then applying that to other genres besides 
the Tolkien-cloned D&D games.  Like, science-fiction role-playing 
games.  The basic concept of anyone with a computer and network connection 
being able to tailor their own game world to their own game server and 
leave it up for other players is an interesting one.  EverQuest for 
Everyman, kind of thing.)

Keep us posted on your progress, please, Alan.

--Laning
"I'm leavin'....on a jet plane
  Don't know when I'll be back again
  Oh, babe
  I hate to go"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:16:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:16:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <200204030216.DFQ00018@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>If you want worlds to have truly unique and _alien_ 
>differences from each other, then you have to make travel 
>between worlds be rare.   Which also makes the traveller 
>(our intrepid player character) herself be rare and 
>special.  That adds to escapist pleasure of roleplaying.
>

I've recently come to the same conclusion, and the main 
handwave that I use is that there is a maximum size jump 
drive that can be built at each TL, and therefore a maximum 
size ship (regardless of how much cash you have).

Having re-read the Kinunir (I know, I know..) they talk about 
one of the ships in the class not being able to reach its 
full jump potential.  I therefore like the idea that you can 
build to a jump number, but whether or not you get it 
consistently with every ship in the class is something else.  
This means that a military ship may go through several refits 
in order to achieve its potential.  Reminds me of some 
fighter aircraft (the F-14 springs to mind) that didn't get 
decent engines until later in their useful life.  And some 
started with engines that were positively lethal.

I know that there are a lot of people who like the big spinal 
mounts, but I've reduced the maximum tonnage of ships to a 
fairly linear plot from 5000 tons at TL 9 to 20,000 tons at 
TL 15 (CT/HG).  I'm also assuming that the larger the ship, 
the more likely that the jump drive will be problematic.  
This explains the use of relatively small ships (200 and 400 
ton) despite the fact that with either HG or MT, much larger 
ships should completely Microsoft, I mean, replace all 
smaller vessels.

Also, I believe (John The Heretic) that abusing your jump 
drives leads to damage that is never really undone.  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:17:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:17:46 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <001f01c1da40$0a82f040$2c5d8690@computer>
References: <20020402064409.B8250279FA@mail.travellercentral.com> <001f01c1da40$0a82f040$2c5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <dhpkauca8tq85ip65jgf2n884na681gjhc@4ax.com>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:14:25 +1000, "Alan Bradley"
<abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:

>> From: JR Holmes=20
>> This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
>> There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
>> (or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
>> sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
>> example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.
>>=20
>> =3D46rom a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become =
part
>> of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
>> destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
>> becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.
>
>You evil naughty man...

And you wouldn't do the the same?

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:30:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:30:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>

Jens Rydholm quoted then opined:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been
> > reprinted in various places.
>
>I Google'd around, but all I could find was webpages mentioning it. It
>would seem that it is available in various paper reprints, but not on the
>web. Sad...

Sad?  Not if you talk to Harlan Ellison.  It's another intellectual 
property debate.  Artists and other creators have no capitalist incentive 
to share their work if it can be freely copied.  And, like any other 
property, they feel it's only fair that they be able to bequeath to their 
heirs.  Harlan is quite adamant about passing his IP rights (and royalties) 
down to his daughters.  He's hardly alone.  And anyone on the list who is 
still collecting royalties of some kind on their own published material 
takes more than a theoretical interest, I suppose.

I am on both sides of the fence (I'm like Jeremy the Nowhere Man in 'Yellow 
Submarine' or the Scarecrow in 'The Wizard of Oz').  I sympathize with 
Harlan Ellison and others.  I also feel strongly that sharing knowledge has 
less value to the human race if the knowledge is only shared with those who 
can pay for it.  The Internet is a great democratizer of knowledge 
sharing.  (It's more a socialist thing than a democracy thing, but it's not 
generally acceptable in the States to express it that way.)

I love usenet and mailing lists and even the WWW and email.  Everyone can 
share all their information freely!  And some of it is even accurate!  And 
I love that writers can make a living by writing!  Uh-oh, wait, I have a 
problem here.

What mechanisms are in place within the Imperium, or in other entities, for 
owners of IP rights to protect them against abuse on other planets?  I 
think the TML has tried to delve into this in the past, but always kind of 
veered away.  Or if we covered it, I was on hiatus from the TML due to 
traffic levels and shortage of time.  Certainly, it is not a condition of 
membership in the Imperium for member worlds to enforce any such 
mechanisms.  Does the Imperium still play a large role?  Perhaps backing a 
voluntary, but widely adhered to, accord or convention on IP rights?  Is 
part of the extensive data traffic between member worlds is updates to 
databases that track book sales, TriD sales, etc.?  In contract disputes 
over royalties where the parties to the dispute reside on different worlds, 
how are they resolved?

By the way, Jens, have you read Hal Clement's 'Mission of Gravity'?  A 
great example of intelligent alien life forms evolving on a world extremely 
different from Terra.  A just plain extreme world, in fact.  Clement opens 
the hood and lets us peer into a lot of the alien building he does.  The 
book's a classic, in fact.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:00:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:00:59 PST
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204011745.g31Hji001663@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20402.180059.2g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> As I've mentioned before, I've been toying w/ the idea of
> inertial suppression as a means of fast accelleration in an
> sf-rpg I'm *slowly* putting together w/ the help of some
> friends. However, there's some conflict over how to achieve
> this (I can email two articles which hint at the scientific
> premise to anyone who's interested). There's also the problem
> of unintended consequences. Since inertial suppression also
> exists in Traveller (so that ships can accellerate at 6G
> w/o squashing their crews), it might be a good idea to
> consider these consequences for a bit.

No. Inertial *compensation* exists in Traveller. Inertial
*suppression/neutralization* is a different matter.

The effects in Traveller could be simply created by an additional
component to the ship's artifical gravity that is equally and opposite
to the acceleration from the drive. The inertial mass of the contents
of the ship is unchanged, but a counteracting force is applied
uniformly to them

True inertia neutralization (or suppression) changes F=ma to F=kma
where k is a constant (or variable) determined by the degree of
neutralization. 

In effect, you are changing the inertial mass of the objects in
question. If this was what was happening in Traveller, then you
couldn't throw a ball across a compartment. As soon as you quit
pushing, the air resistance would stop it. 

BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
playing "grav pong" with hijackers.

> Basically, if I read him right, what he appears to be saying is that
> if you lower inertia in a given space by 99%, people in that area will
> have much more strength than they're used to having, because the
> chemical reactions going on in their bodies which generate energy
> will still be generating as much energy, but for a much smaller
> apparent mass, meaning that they'll be able to perform extrodinary
> feats (and quite possibly hurt themselves), and that the only way
> around this is to downscale everything else, which generates a
> very strange and inconsistent reality.
>
> What do other people think about this argument?

Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects. 

There's also the question as to whether or not gravitational mass and
inertial mass are the same thing. Last I heard, experiments had shown
that they were the same to with 1 part in something like 10^12, but
it's still an *assumption* that they are the same thing.

But assuming that you can live thru the process, then it'd be best to
ignore all the effects at the sub-molar level (ie molecular and lower).

This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:15:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:15:59 PST
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204011749.DDD03964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20402.181559.4K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
> effects when you modify Planck's constant.

Starting with minor things like matter as we know it not being possible
if you tweak it more than a *tiny* bit.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:17:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:17:51 PST
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204020013.g320DTU02643@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20402.181751.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
>> effects when you modify Planck's constant.
>
> Not talking about modifying Planck's constant. Only talking about
> modifying inertia. Tim introduced the idea of modifying Planck's
> constant as a device to keep strangeness from happening when
> inertia is modified, but I'm not 100% sure that inertial suppression
> would necessarily result in strangeness in the first place. Trying
> to get some thoughts on the matter.

The attraction between particles (molecules, etc) would be the same.
But their (effective) mass would be lower. Making the accelerations due
to the forces higher. Which would give the *effect* of making the
forces stronger.

That's why I said that it'd be best to just handwave all the stuff at
the molecular and lower layers. Dealing with the effects at the "gross"
(molar) level is gonna be hairy enough.

The only writers that have ever dealt with this that I can recall are
E.E. Smith in the Lensman series, and one small section of one of
Heinlein's Future History stories (the one that introduces the Howard
Familes, and which I cannot recall the title of)-:

I do like one idea of Smith's. Namely that you retain your original
velocity vector while "free". If you are doing partial neutralization,
things would get messier, but they'd still be doable. 

This provides a nice complication in that when you restore inertua, you
have to worry about which direction that vector point. If it's aimed at
a nearby solid object, Ouch!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:39:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:39:06 -0700
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> or look up flux compressors 
> 
> The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures 
> I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius 
> kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.
> 
> Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find
> anything.  OK, I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite
> terrorist building these? --

That's a very good question.  I've read speculation that they may 
have been used in some places, but I'd think the evidence would be 
pretty obvious (lots of fried computers).  At that point, I'm guessing 
that most terrorists want to see blood far more than lost data.

OTOH, I wonder if more some of the more hard-line 
environmentalist groups like Green Peace and Earth First know 
about these things, maybe I'll send them a link :)

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:42:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:42:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
 <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402213220.0287eec0@pop.wizard.net>

David Summers quoted me and wrote:
>At 4:20 AM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>>There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example. Paying 
>>passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them through the 
>>passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger areas of the 
>>ship.  Each keycard is unique to each passenger, and so the same card 
>>gets them into their own private cabin.  Crew will have similar cards, 
>>that give them more freedom, and exactly how much and which greater 
>>freedoms would depend on the crew member's billet.
>
>I really don't see the crew needing card to move about the ship. That is 
>going to get old in a hurry, could be a problem in an emergency, and is 
>unecessary.
I agree with your thesis expressed earlier that crew needs to be able to 
move about the ship on their duties unimpeded.  What I had in mind was 
keeping the passenger-only areas fenced off.  Crew will have to pass 
through access-control points entering and exiting passenger areas, but 
it's a pretty low-level annoyance.  Just wave their Crew ID Badge in the 
general direction of the hatch.  It's probably clipped to their sleeve or 
collar.

>In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go where 
>they shouldn't.  You wouldn't actually lock things unless they were 
>particularly sensitive or valuable or someone had leasure to get into 
>somplace they shouldn't (like an isolated closet).  This is similar to 
>what ships use today.

I _tried_ to go where I wasn't allowed when I was aboard a cruise ship 
about fifteen years ago.  All the doors/hatches were locked.  Crew had keys 
for the doors they normally needed access to.  This was before electronic 
keys or crypto keys were common; I mean the crew had traditional keys.  A 
lot of doors were locked from the passenger side but not from the crew 
side.  Crew usually had to either knock to gain access from the passenger 
side, or go around the long way to somewhere they could enter.  Unsecured 
doors usually had a _lot_ of crew in the immediate vicinity.  If someone 
steals an ocean liner they can do a lot of damage, but if someone steals a 
starship they can potentially do far more than that.  I'd think starships 
have more safeguards than ocean liners.  IMTU.  YMMV.  :->

I like to envision ship security levels that make a player character think 
and work and plan really hard to succeed at gaining control of a ship's 
bridge and engineering.  But still keep it possible.  It should be rare and 
one of the proudest illegal achievements a player can brag of.  Most RPGers 
I've known are far too casual and impulsive to have a ghost of a chance at 
success.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:55:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:55:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20402.180059.2g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204011745.g31Hji001663@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215009.0283aec0@pop.wizard.net>

Leonard Erickson, in replying to JimV said:

>BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
>higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
>artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
>playing "grav pong" with hijackers.
Sounds like we see it the same way.  Although +6 gees to -6 gees in less 
than one second should be sufficient grav pong to deal with most hijackers.

I've always wondered at the canonical lack of ships capable of 
accelerations far greater than 6 gees.  We subject astronauts and fighter 
pilots to accelerations between 4 and 6 gees, so you'd think that high 
performance military aircraft would be capable of accelerating many gees 
faster than their internal grav compensation can handle.  They accelerate 
at 10 gees, have 6 gees of that compensated, and a "felt acceleration" of 4 
gees.

>Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
>things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects.

Yeah, it's way too messy a pandora's box for me to consider it seriously.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:59:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:59:49 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net> <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20020403125949.A14872@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go
> where they shouldn't.

On one sea trip on a passenger ferry I went exploring the passenger
accessible areas, and ended up on the wrong side of a very impressive
looking "Authorized Personnel Only" sign hanging on a heavy chain for
emphasis.  The strange thing is, I never actually passed any such
signs to get to the wrong side of the chained-off region :)

I could easily see the same thing happening on a large passenger liner
in Traveller.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:04:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:04:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204030216.DFQ00018@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215722.02839ec0@pop.wizard.net>

>I know that there are a lot of people who like the big spinal
>mounts, but I've reduced the maximum tonnage of ships to a
>fairly linear plot from 5000 tons at TL 9 to 20,000 tons at
>TL 15 (CT/HG).  I'm also assuming that the larger the ship,
>the more likely that the jump drive will be problematic.
>This explains the use of relatively small ships (200 and 400
>ton) despite the fact that with either HG or MT, much larger
>ships should completely Microsoft, I mean, replace all
>smaller vessels.
>
>Also, I believe (John The Heretic) that abusing your jump
>drives leads to damage that is never really undone.

I like spinal mounts.  The combat advantages in fleet actions are so great 
that I think battles tend to go to whoever has the most spinal 
mounts.  Back when they were doing TCS tournaments at cons, I think that 
tended to be the consensus as well.

I like your ideas about jump number being a nominal spec that has to be 
worked at to achieve in the field.  But we need rules, man, rules.  I'm not 
sure I agree with the Microsoft theory of big ships eating little ships, 
but IMHO the canonical Traveller universe stretches the old credibility 
suspenders awfully far to have such a plethora of small merchant ships 
running around all the time instead of shipping being dominated by 5,000t 
and bigger vessels.  I'd be more inclined to agree with large shipping 
_corporations_ eating little ones.  Which is possibly a better description 
of what Microsoft does, anyway.

I am interested in permanent damage to jump drives when they are 
abused.  But again I need rules, man!  Exactly what constitutes 
abuse?  Exactly how do you determine the consequences of abuse?  How much 
of that damage can be repaired, and what is required to repair it?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:12:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:12:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
In-Reply-To: <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b8d0233486e4@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:41 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
>"David P. Summers" wrote:
>>
>>  In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
>>  tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
>>  arrays.....
>
>Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
>masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....

But the tags would be unforgeable based on the penguins DNA!  Clearly 
this would be justified based on the threat that penguins pose.  (How 
could the Imperium  claim to control their territory if penguins roam 
free?)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:12:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:12:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Reply Etiquette Flame (was: Galileo)
In-Reply-To: <20020403013707.22C1527A00@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402190656.00a4a160@mailhost.efn.org>

Todd Glenn wrote, in response to a post where I forgot to change the 
default subject (something I am normally very good about):

>It's even in the digest:
>
>"When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."

Nice of you to quote my entire message just to bitch about the subject 
line.  Especially when I'm one of those who does take care to trim his 
quotes, post below quoted material, not use Outlook or post MIME to the 
list, etc etc...

In closing, sir, you are invited to <biological function> yourself.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:21:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:21:11 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <3CAA7526.B59B63BA@mail.cswnet.com>

Timothy Little writes:
>Wow, the LBBs really do hit your wallet *hard*!  I suggest using some
>other design system if you want lower costs.  *Any* other design
>system.

Yeah, but what other design system lets you have...
[drum roll with trumpets]

		THE INFAMOUS ONE MAN SCOUT SHIP!

Besides, a real Traveller scoffs at mere Mcr's. Its the Tcr's
that we pay attention to...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:26:02 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <3CAA764A.60353DD6@mail.cswnet.com>

General Turokan writes:
>Open the pod bay doors Hal.

>I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now.

>Hal, open the pod bay doors.

>I'm sorry Dave.

>HAL! 

>Yes Dave.

>Hal, I've got to go to the bathroom!

>I'm sorry Dave

One [1] keyboard kill.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:25:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:25:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <200204030325.DFT00415@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says 

"I need rules, man"

OK.  Let's do this on the assumption that there is a maximum 
size of ship that can be sent through jump space at each TL.

Start at 1000 tons at TL 9 and work your way up to TL 15 (CT).

That's the first rule.  You go next.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:43:03 +1000
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
References: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001401c1dac2$798ed940$86b18b90@computer>

> From: John Groth 
> I don't know of kian stats in any game system.

<vague memory surfacing>

Try original (print) JTAS.

I can't check at the moment, alas.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:48:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:48:07 +1000
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
Message-ID: <001501c1dac2$7cd48e60$86b18b90@computer>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>      The more robots deal with humans or operate within a general human
> setting, the more likely they'll be the upright, bipedal, anthromorphic
> robots of classic sci-fi.  A two-legged, vaguely human shaped, robot with
> arms and hands will be preferred as a steward or medic by most folks over
a
> metal box on treads with tentacles.  Robots with "hands" will also be able
> to use the same utensils and tools the rest of the crew uses.
>      Robots in industrial settings will be far less anthromorphic, in
those
> settings function will drive form.

There will be one category of robot that will be pseudo-biological - the
good old "companion" bot - servant, secretary, and sex-toy.

They don't have to be especially bright, or particularly able to pass for
human in social settings, so they aren't necessarily _hugely_ expensive.
They still will be toys for the wealthy, though.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:32:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:32:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <20020403001628.32715.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402222929.02df3008@192.168.0.1>

At 10:16 AM 4/3/2002 +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
>Speaking of villians with english accents reminds me
>of a scene from Buffy:the vampire slayer. The english
>librarian nearly gets killed by a demon and somebody
>says:
>"I bet your whole life flashed before your eyes, cup
>of tea, cup of tea, nearly got shagged, cup of tea"
>ObTrav: Sneaky intelligence agents have french
>accents, even if they are Zhodani ;) Speaking of which
>what would a Zhodani accent be comparable too?

Well...given the 'canon' cold war setup, the Zho would have Russian Accents.
That would make their Vargr allies Cubans (picture a Vargr in fatigues with 
a cigar and an AK-47 and a thick Spanish accent).
Hmmm...Sword Worlders would be the various Eastern European Warsaw Pact 
countries.
Your basic heavy handed eastern European accent.



----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:40:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:40:48 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403134048.A15012@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> I think the original idea behind such expensive ships was to avoid
> having a Jetsons future where everyone can drive the family car to
> another planet for a weekend jaunt.

Actually, they didn't really succeed :)

Even in non-GURPS versions of Traveller, there are much cheaper
spacecraft than starships, some of them capable of reaching Mars from
Earth in a day or so.  Granted, even there they are far more expensive
than an average Hyundai, but nowhere near the cost of a jump-capable
craft.


>  They wanted to have put high, but not impossibly high, barriers to
> frequent travel between star systems.  Otherwise there's no reason
> to believe that each the civilizations on each planet will remain
> distinctly different from each other after 1,100 years of being in
> the same Imperium and rubbing elbows all the time.

I think there is.  The time barriers suffice, if nothing else.  With
typically available jump drives, it takes *years* to get across the
Imperium.  Even if those drives were dirt cheap.

Furthermore, each planet has *drastically* different environmental
conditions and resources; much more different than say France is from
Antartica.  The economic drivers will be radically different in
various systems, and won't merge just because vehicles are cheap.

Even if travel between stars was absolutely free of charge, it still
takes at least a week or two to get to the nearest neighbouring
system.  That alone presents a social barrier to homogenisation even
within a subsector, let alone a sector or the Imperium as a whole.

This includes military homogenisation: A fleet of battleships at Core,
no matter how powerful, is no good against a tiny pack of Vargr ships
in the Spinward Marches.  So some areas have recent incursions by
foreigners, and large military forces for their population.  Other
areas have not seen a warship in action for generations, and receive
tenth-hand news 6 months old from the nearest conflict.  If they care.


Which brings up the next point: species differences.  Even among the
variants of humaniti, there are significant differences.  Then there
are the non-human sentient races, with their own thought processes,
customs, physical requirements and preferred cultures.  To say nothing
of the enormous variety of non-sentient natural wildlife present only
on a particular planet.

And you have political differences, which I don't think are likely to
disappear.  People will almost certainly retain differences in belief.
If interstellar travel is cheap that just makes it easier for members
of different cultures to move somewhere else rather than try to
integrate.


I'm sorry, I just don't see how making starships cheap erases all
these things that factor into making a local culture significantly
different from others.  More than that, I don't see how inflating the
cost of inter*planetary* spacecraft adds anything at all to the
variety within the Imperium, let alone differences outside it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:49:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:49:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402213220.0287eec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
 <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402213220.0287eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <p04330106b8d02b8f7e5e@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:42 PM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>David Summers quoted me and wrote:
>>At 4:20 AM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>>>There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example. 
>>>Paying passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them 
>>>through the passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger 
>>>areas of the ship.  Each keycard is unique to each passenger, and 
>>>so the same card gets them into their own private cabin.  Crew 
>>>will have similar cards, that give them more freedom, and exactly 
>>>how much and which greater freedoms would depend on the crew 
>>>member's billet.
>>
>>I really don't see the crew needing card to move about the ship. 
>>That is going to get old in a hurry, could be a problem in an 
>>emergency, and is unecessary.
>I agree with your thesis expressed earlier that crew needs to be 
>able to move about the ship on their duties unimpeded.  What I had 
>in mind was keeping the passenger-only areas fenced off.  Crew will 
>have to pass through access-control points entering and exiting 
>passenger areas, but it's a pretty low-level annoyance.  Just wave 
>their Crew ID Badge in the general direction of the hatch.  It's 
>probably clipped to their sleeve or collar.

Well, some smaller ships have passenger areas in the middle of the 
ship and you have to pass through it to get from one end to the other.

If this isn't true, I think you might see some sort of basic restriction...

>
>>In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go 
>>where they shouldn't.  You wouldn't actually lock things unless 
>>they were particularly sensitive or valuable or someone had leasure 
>>to get into somplace they shouldn't (like an isolated closet). 
>>This is similar to what ships use today.
>
>I _tried_ to go where I wasn't allowed when I was aboard a cruise 
>ship about fifteen years ago.  All the doors/hatches were locked. 
>Crew had keys for the doors they normally needed access to.  This 
>was before electronic keys or crypto keys were common; I mean the 
>crew had traditional keys

OTOH, I was on a ship for a gambling cruise and the bridge, which was 
off the upper deck where the passengers went to sight see, wasn't 
locked (the reason you didn't go in there was the feeling that the 
people in there would object :-)

>I like to envision ship security levels that make a player character 
>think and work and plan really hard to succeed at gaining control of 
>a ship's bridge and engineering.

I think the crew will be their main obstacle.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:37:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:37:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402223515.02da9ec0@192.168.0.1>

At 06:39 PM 6/2/2002 -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> > or look up flux compressors
> > The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures
> > I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius
> > kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.
> > Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find
> > anything.  OK, I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite
> > terrorist building these? --
>That's a very good question.  I've read speculation that they may
>have been used in some places, but I'd think the evidence would be
>pretty obvious (lots of fried computers).  At that point, I'm guessing
>that most terrorists want to see blood far more than lost data.
>OTOH, I wonder if more some of the more hard-line
>environmentalist groups like Green Peace and Earth First know
>about these things, maybe I'll send them a link :)

They already have their own official terrorist wings, ELF & ALF (Earth 
Liberation Front & Animal Liberation Front) leading the FBI lists.

You probably don't want to have the FBI draw a line between you and them.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:54:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:54:45 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402225324.01f21ff0@mail.charter.net>

Loren had mentioned a Traveller specific version of the GURPS character 
generation software was being considered.

Is this project a go?  If so, when would it see the light of day?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
           http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:03:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:03:33 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com> <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <k9vkau413ehik68ii1a6tna2hhcq425icf@4ax.com>

On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:38:10 +1000, "Alan Bradley"
<abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:

>> From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
>> Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's
>> kind of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not =
doing
>> any more jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the
>> character becomes motivated to take this one, last job.
>
>In fact it's such a "classic bit" that I am considering playing it as a =
solo
>game.
>
>Unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable mission!  : (
>
>I've got a couple of ideas about how to run it, though.  They might be =
of
>interest to the other solo players on the list.
>
><SNIP>
>
>Success would come from mobilising your own possible assets, finding out=
 who
>else is in the game, thwarting their plans, and working towards your own
>devastating exercise in turning the tables on the jerks blackmailing =
you.
>
>The plot itself would be a McGuffin hunt, shaped by "just in time" =
random
>generation, plus incidents of "a man with a gun enters the room".  It =
could
>be hopelessly convoluted and pointless, or it could be The Maltese =
Falcon.
>Or The Millenium Falcon.
>
>Now all I need is the time and energy to develop these ideas...

I find myself in the role of Mr. Movie.  For a pretty nasty story
along these lines, take a look at the movie "Commando".  Our hero is
blackmailed into taking on an assassination for the villians, but
escapes before the plane takes off for the destination.  He then has a
fixed amount of time to chase down villain minions, learn where the
major villain is hiding and rescue the hostage.  Not too much
opportunity for character development, but a good action story.  From
a gaming standpoint, the tracking and interrogation of the henchmen
and most of the fighting could be the solo adventure.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:28:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:28:33 -0600
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net> <p04330105b8d0233486e4@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3CAA76E1.BA4A2BC6@premier.net>


"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
> At 7:41 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
> >"David P. Summers" wrote:
> >>
> >>  In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
> >>  tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
> >>  arrays.....
> >
> >Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
> >masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....
> 
> But the tags would be unforgeable based on the penguins DNA!  Clearly
> this would be justified based on the threat that penguins pose.  (How
> could the Imperium  claim to control their territory if penguins roam
> free?)

Then the penguins merely graft a patch of non-penguin-waterfowl skin and
feathers to the tag attachment point (ideally waterfowl generally
engaged as tramp freighters or system defense birds), change the tag
code to suit the new DNA and proceed on their marauding ways.... ;-)

The struggle between measure and countermeasure is a never-ending one,
as neither side is likely to gain lasting superiority.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:26:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:26:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020402.202649.-8353.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:26:02 -0600 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
> General Turokan writes:
> >Open the pod bay doors Hal.
>  >I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now.
>  >Hal, open the pod bay doors.
>  >I'm sorry Dave.
>  >HAL! 
>  >Yes Dave.
>  >Hal, I've got to go to the bathroom!
>  >I'm sorry Dave
> 
> One [1] keyboard kill.
> 
> Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

Thanks Dan, my first keyboard kill scored.

Woooooooohooooooo!!

I guess I'm out of the Rookie status now.

Gee, how many more till I can earn Flight Officer?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:13:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:13:41 -0800
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <20020402194040.7979a578.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
 <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402201259.009ec960@mindspring.com>

At 07:40 PM 4/2/02 +0200, you wrote:
>Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
>food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
>predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
>for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world under
>the ice.

Jedi Jellyfish Under The Ice!  I love it!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets.
                                 - Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:44:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:44:29 +1000
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS That's just nasty...
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C178F5@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

From Paul:
I saw a special on the toob some time ago about these
two women who started a business cleaning up after the
police were done at murder scenes.  They contracted
either to the insurance co or mortgage co.  They would
go in and make a nasty place livable again.

Not my idea of fun employment.

From Me:
In Oz we have this funeral service that mostly employs female ex nurses
dressed in white. I forget their name (something like the white sisters -
but less Aryan than that). They figured that with emotions running high in
the immediate hours after a death that the ladies, who have skills in
calming people down, and who have come to collect the bodies, was a good
thing. I remember seeing an interview where the ladies would turn up and
relatives would be on the front lawn screaming over who was getting
'grandma's antique bed spread', and the ladies would have to calm things
down.  

I would think being on Highway patrol/Ambulance would be messed up. I
remember stats about suicides/depression amongst crews that regularly attend
road accidents being statistically aberrant (something like double their
less highway inclined colleagues). I think the some Police Services in Oz
roster members on attending road deaths for like only a month a year because
of this. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:45:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204030325.DFT00415@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402225752.027fbae0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon, that fiendish b*st*rd, wrote:
>laning says
>
>"I need rules, man"
>
>OK.  Let's do this on the assumption that there is a maximum
>size of ship that can be sent through jump space at each TL.
>
>Start at 1000 tons at TL 9 and work your way up to TL 15 (CT).
>
>That's the first rule.  You go next.


LOL!   :->

Umm, okay.

Canonically, the largest possible starship is 1,000,000 under CT LBB 5, and 
TL does not limit hull size itself.  Theoretical jump drive capacity goes 
to jump-2 at TL 11, then increases by one jump number for each TL increase 
after that.  TLs beyond TL 15 are still capped at jump-6 capacity.

You gave the largest standard-sized hull according to LBB 2 as the maximum 
size that be sent through jump space at TL 9.  For fun, let's give the 
largest hull that can be built in LBB 2 as the TL 10 limit.  That's 5,000 tons.

If it isn't rude, I'll skip ahead (may be more pleasantly viewed with 
fixed-width font):
TL 9     1,000 tons
TL 10    5,000 tons
TL 11   10,000 tons
TL 12   50,000 tons
TL 13  100,000 tons
TL 14  500,000 tons
TL 15  One million tons

This may confer additional large battle advantages in TCS to the side with 
a TL advantage.  Probably only small advantages at TL 12+.  Just so long as 
you can include a powerful spinal mount weapon, that should keep you in the 
running even if your opponent has a somewhat better spinal mount 
weapon.  Try to outnumber your enemy if you can't outclass him.

The larger ships will also have an armor advantage.  Reasonable people 
disagree over how significant armor is in TCS situations.

Only higher tech levels will be capable of using large planetoid hulls.

Let's see, the Imperial-average TL is 12.  If we assume that a significant 
number of Imperial naval vessels will be built and maintained at TL 12 
facilities, then the largest hull that they will be able to use for a 
starship is 50,000 tons.  50,000 tons times 13.5 meters^3 per ton means a 
volume of 675,000 cubic meters.  Which would mean a borg-like cube about 87 
meters per dimension.  Or a thousand meters long, by 27 meters high by 25 
meters wide.

A planetoid hull can use only 60,000 tons and the rest is "wasted" on 
structural integrity.  A buffered planetoid hull "wastes" 35%, so it would 
only be able to use 39,000 tons of its volume for ship components, cargo, 
and fuel.

Caveat:  I was going by first edition of LBB 5 - High Guard.  Second 
edition might have different numbers for hulls and jump capacities, but I 
doubt it.

Also, it bothers me that I'm adding another rule/table to keep track of 
during ship design.

Now for the thorny part.  What does one have to do to a ship to get it's 
full jump capability out of it?  Roll dice?  Spend more per ton of jump 
drive?  Install fancy computers?  Other?  And the details of implementing 
that.  Can the jump capability decline over time even though it has not 
been battle damaged and is being properly maintained?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:43:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:43:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS That's just nasty...
Message-ID: <200204030443.DFV01354@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hughes, Michael" says
>Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS That's just nasty...  
>To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
>
>I would think being on Highway patrol/Ambulance would be 
>messed up. I remember stats about suicides/depression 
>amongst crews that regularly attend road accidents being 
>statistically aberrant (something like double their
>less highway inclined colleagues). I think the some Police 
>Services in Oz roster members on attending road deaths for 
>like only a month a year because of this. 
>
"The Night Rider.  Remember him when you look up into the 
night sky..."
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:10:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:10:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <200204030510.DFV03007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning <laning@wizard.net>  
<snip size limits>

I think that limiting people to smaller ships really gives us 
the "small ship" Traveller.  So...

>
>Now for the thorny part.  What does one have to do to a ship 
>to get it's full jump capability out of it? 

For the first ten jumps (shakedown), roll 10+ to achieve the 
design jump rating, DM Average Engineering Skill Level of 
crew, maximum DM 4.  You must use refined fuel for these 
calibration jumps.  Failure results in a jump reduced by 1 
parsec per point failed.  This means that shipyards have to 
have rescue/refuelling ships ready to save shakedown failures.

Average the performance over the shakedown, and round up.  
This is the true Jump rating.  Note that in some cases, the 
military will not accept delivery of a ship that takes enough 
fuel for Jump-4 to only do a Jump-3.

Straight rule -- ships displacing 5000 tons or less roll for 
shakedown on a 6+, not 10+. 

Remedy:  Replace the jump drives.  See how expensive this is 
getting?

>Can the jump capability decline over time even though it has 
>not been battle damaged and is being properly maintained?
>

On the misjump roll, in addition to CT DMs
-1 DM for every 10 years of drive age.
-1 DM for every hit on the Jump drives if repaired
-2 DM for every hit on the Jump drives not repaired (running 
with battle damage)
-1 DM for every prior slight or minor misjump, even if 
repaired.
-4 DM for every prior major misjump (after repairs)
-1 DM if drive is not performing to design.

Misjump itself is not just "randomly trip to nowhere".

I see slight, minor, major, and catastrophic misjumps.

Fail misjump roll by 
1 = slight, ship misses destination by 1D6 x 0.1 parsec
2 = minor, same as jumping short during shakedown
3 = major, same as standard misjump
5 = catastrophic, you never come out of hyperspace

Note that some captains might feel it worth the risk.  Some 
old traders are probably the equivalent of the African Queen.

Replacing jump drives involves recalibration, which means the 
shakedown happens again.

I think that there should be a minimum separation distance 
when using jump drives.  Think of that B5 episode where they 
open a hyperspace portal from a White Star when they already 
were in an open gate.  Two ships too close to each other are 
already shredding space/hyperspace, and that has to have an 
effect.  Might make a good suicide maneuver for a smaller 
destroyer who is trying to kill a battlerider fleeing the 
field.

Additional Misjump DMs
- Jump Rating of Nearby Ship Using Jump Drive (100 km)
- Missile Factor if Nuclear Missiles hit during jump 
initiation

Unlike the so-called "jump flash", I really really like the 
way that going into/out of hyperspace looked in B5.  
Aesthetically pleasing.  Plus, everyone gets some warning 
that a jump point is forming.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 00:14:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <20020403134048.A15012@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402235745.00acdde0@pop.wizard.net>

>I'm sorry, I just don't see how making starships cheap erases all
>these things that factor into making a local culture significantly
>different from others.  More than that, I don't see how inflating the
>cost of inter*planetary* spacecraft adds anything at all to the
>variety within the Imperium, let alone differences outside it.

I don't thing making starships cheap _erases_ all the good and excellent 
factors that you cited from the equation.  But making them expensive does 
_enhance_ the isolation of cultures on different worlds.  I think it is a 
significant difference, and (maybe) arguably enough of a difference that 
prudent game designers wanted to take advantage of it.  I note that Loren 
has been with this game since before the beginning, and also is line editor 
for GT, and you say that jump drive prices in GT appear to be the same as 
in CT.  There may be a reason for that.

As you've already seen, I'm not that afraid of changing things.  I want to 
lower starship costs by a couple of orders of magnitude, mostly because I 
rely on those other good and excellent factors you cited.

I differ over whether interplanetary spacecraft have inflated costs in all 
versions of Traveller except for GT.  Perhaps it seems so to someone coming 
to Traveller first through GURPS Traveller, but bear in mind that GT is the 
fifth major version of Traveller and all four previous versions began with 
and maintained the same approximate price schedules for ship building.

Perhaps GT is deflationary, rather than all other Traveller 
inflationary?  :->  It's a point-of-view thing.  Only with the benefit of 
hindsight and being GT-centric do we come to the view of previous Traveller 
versions as being inflationary.  I have no problem with GT being so 
different on this, it's all a matter of taste.  Not even TNE managed to be 
really hard science, and all other versions even less so.  We're all 
arguing over angels on the head of a pin, really.  How much does it cost to 
build a power plant or a thruster plate?  Whatever I say it does, 
IMTU.  Whatever you say it does, IYTU.  :->

AFAIK, it will never be possible to build thruster plates, so who can say 
their cost.  AFAIK, nobody can say how cheap, safe, easy to operate fusion 
power plants can be made to provide incredibly abundant energy or how they 
would be designed and constructed, so who can say their cost.  Probably, 
there is no way to ever do it.  Put 'em in gumball machines if it makes YTU 
happy, is what I say.  Which should generate at least one good SF short story.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:18:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:18:19 -0800
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
In-Reply-To: <E16s3jE-0001h7-00@pluto2.runbox.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402211746.00ac7870@mail.verizon.net>

Me too!  ;-)

Charles McKnight
res0i3sf@verizon.net



At 03:28 PM 4/1/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Any chance of seeing these?
>
>Beth
>
> > I'd be interested to see this...
> >
> > In days past I used to write such manuals for a live-role-playing game
> > based on 25th century space marines. These included a medical manual, EOD
> > procedures and even the Uniform Code of Military Justice (a guaranteed
> > cure for insommnia!).
> >
> > Hugs and kisses,
> >
> > Mexal,
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:20:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:20:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
In-Reply-To: <200203310432.DAH01551@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402211958.00ab2190@mail.verizon.net>

Hi John,

I'd appreciate an opportunity to look it over.

Thanks!

Charles McKnight
res0i3sf@verizon.net

At 11:32 PM 3/30/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Just finished going through what will be a rather long
>document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units
>in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may
>differ.
>
>But..  I need more input.  I've just moved a current day
>document a fair number of years into the future (out to TL10,
>so far), and I would like to take it a bit further, say TL12.
>
>I am interested in anyone's input concerning what might be
>standard operating procedure (instructions to individual
>soldiers, teams, and platoons).  Some of the detail I have is
>down to the items to carry.
>
>I am especially interested in what might be SOP in regards to
>weapons, employment of specific weapons (such as, "always use
>the plasma gun to break contact").
>
>I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing
>to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages
>so far.
>________________
>Do you think my being stronger and
>faster has anything to do with my
>muscles in this place?...Do you think
>that's air that you are breathing?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:29:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:29:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20402.180059.2g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 02, 2002 06:00:59 PM
Message-ID: <200204030529.g335TAO02739@localhost.uia.net>

Leonard writes:
> Inertial *compensation* exists in Traveller. Inertial
> *suppression/neutralization* is a different matter.

So if you're crusing at 6G, and your inertial conpensators
crap out all of a sudden, watch out :-)

Probably there's some sort of automated cut-off for that
sort of situation, but it's odd that we don't see the floor/wall
field generators or their power usage in any of the design specs.
Then again, we don't see the light bulbs either, so perhaps they're
cheap and energy efficient.

> True inertia neutralization (or suppression) changes F=ma to F=kma
> where k is a constant (or variable) determined by the degree of
> neutralization. 
> 
> In effect, you are changing the inertial mass of the objects in
> question. If this was what was happening in Traveller, then you
> couldn't throw a ball across a compartment. As soon as you quit
> pushing, the air resistance would stop it. 

But the air molecules would also have a lower inertia, so they'd
be easier to sweep aside. In short, since both the air and the ball
are both effected equally by inertial suppression, they'd both behave
normally.

Imagine two balls on a pool table. Now imagine them made out of
styrofoam. Impart one with a given velocity, so it strikes it's
neighbor, and it should react just like a normal pool ball
(particularly if we take away the pool table and put them in
a vacuum... this isn't a cheat, all I'm saying is that the
kinetic energy transfer should result in the exact same outcome
regardless of the degree of inertial neutralization).

But, as you say in a later post, the energy of forces might seem
stronger under inertial suppression. Well, is that really the
case? A change in gravity should produce no difference, as
masses fall at the same speed, all other things being equal.
If I drop a feather in a vacuum, and a drop a rock in a
vacuum, they should both fall at the same speed. So I don't
think that changing inertia should effect how an object behaves
with respect to the gravitational force. What about the weak,
strong, and EM forces?

> Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
> things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects. 

In what way?

> There's also the question as to whether or not gravitational mass and
> inertial mass are the same thing. Last I heard, experiments had shown
> that they were the same to with 1 part in something like 10^12, but
> it's still an *assumption* that they are the same thing.

It may be that both inertia and gravity are linked to the zero
point field and/or space-time curvature. I don't know enough
physics to lend any ideas on the topic, but I can forward you
some articles on it pulled from New Scientist if you'd be
interested in a quick read.

> But assuming that you can live thru the process, then it'd be best to
> ignore all the effects at the sub-molar level (ie molecular and lower).

Can't do this.
 
> This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
> work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
> viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.

Except that your heart would also be of a lower apparent mass.
Instead of thinking of a normal pool ball hitting a styrofoam ball,
think of one styrofoam ball hitting another one. On the molecular
scale, I'm guessing that this would be more akin to what would be
happening. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:40:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:40:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> from "John T. Kwon" at Apr 02, 2002 05:22:44 PM
Message-ID: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>

> One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the 
> price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial 
> cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very 
> much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be 
> possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for 
> mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the 
> fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator 
> runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to 
> ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of 
> the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.

That and a lack of dirt. Actually, with cheap energy (ala fusion),
transportation costs would probably plummet as well. I remember
reading a book of short stories back in high school, and in one
of them, the author posited that nuclear fusion created an era
of plenty where people struggled to be good consumers (comsuming
as much of everything as they could so as to keep the econony
humming along... consuming became an occupation in itself). I
thought the conclusion was rather silly, but the question raised
(what would the world be like with cheap energy?) was certainly
interesting, and it's something which I haven't really seen
explored beyond the most superficial level. What would the
world be like if supply so outstripped demand that the vast
majority of people would no longer have to work. In a way, we're
living it (not meaning to start a flamewar over social policy, but
it's my intuition that welfare recipients today probably live
better than their hard working ancestors of centuries past), but
imagine the trend were extended such that everyone could live
in idle luxury, and only a small percentage of the population
need be employeed. What would that be like? I can't even scratch
the surface of potential ramifications. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:49:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:49:54 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <E16sWO7-0004I7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 02:04:52PM -0800
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16sWO7-0004I7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020402224954.B10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 02:04:52PM -0800, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> > (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> > 
> > 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
> 
> In Jeopardy mode:
> 
> Heretics for 100: Who is Galileo

I should note that the Catholic Church's issues with Galileo were not
his science but rather his theology.  The man took the heliocentric
idea (developed, IIRC, by a Catholic priest) and drew incorrect
theological conclusions therefrom.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Wouldn't you love to fill out _that_ report?  `Company asset #423423 was
lost while fighting the forces of evil.'                   --Chris Adams

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:53:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:53:56 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #372 - 42 msgs
In-Reply-To: <B8CF87E8.342AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 04:08:08PM -0800
References: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402155400.00a4c780@mailhost.efn.org> <B8CF87E8.342AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020402225356.C10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> "When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."

Still more proof that digest mode is a work of the devil...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The power of Satan is as nothing before the might of the Lord, so don't
go getting any ideas.                             --I Abyssinians 20:20

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:03:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:03:11 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:30:25PM -0500
References: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se> <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020402230311.D10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:30:25PM -0500, laning wrote:
>
> I am on both sides of the fence (I'm like Jeremy the Nowhere Man in
> 'Yellow Submarine' or the Scarecrow in 'The Wizard of Oz').  I
> sympathize with Harlan Ellison and others.  I also feel strongly
> that sharing knowledge has less value to the human race if the
> knowledge is only shared with those who can pay for it.  The
> Internet is a great democratizer of knowledge sharing.  (It's more a
> socialist thing than a democracy thing, but it's not generally
> acceptable in the States to express it that way.)

The ideal solution, of course, is for those of a moral bent to produce
their own, superior, IP and publish it openly.  Much like New Riders
do with their books (all, AFAIK, available under an open license) and
the GNU project do with theirs.  As unto the software hoarders, so
unto all IP hoarders.

Incidentally, the Open Content License <http://www.opencontent.org/>
makes provisions for author approval of significantly modified
versions (e.g. some of the nastier forms of fanfic), and for
interested parties to retrieve original versions of the work.

And yes, I release my Traveller code <http://travtrack.sf.net/> under
the GPL.  Thereby putting my money where my mouth is.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ubi non accusator, ibi non judex.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:11:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:11:14 +0100
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
References: <200204030529.g335TAO02739@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <007301c1dad6$5c23ef80$52200050@matt>

Just a though, but wouldn't the inertial compensation in Traveller consist
of using grav plates to create a grav pull of 1G les than the accelleration
on a reciprocal vector?

Assuming decks at right angles to thrust, if you accelerate at 6G create a
5G field in the ceiling... voil, effectively 1G felt by occupants... (other
orientations will require G-Plates to generate G at other angles, but heck,
they are made of Handwavium anyway...)

Or am I getting this completely wrong?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:21:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:21:10 -0700
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402223515.02da9ec0@192.168.0.1>; from eclipse@urbin.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 10:37:18PM -0500
References: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402223515.02da9ec0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020402232110.F10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 10:37:18PM -0500, Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> They already have their own official terrorist wings, ELF & ALF (Earth 
> Liberation Front & Animal Liberation Front) leading the FBI lists.

Who have, incidentally, killed people.  They are not heroes of any
sort or kind, and deserve to be hunted to the ends of the earth.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I have sustained a continual bombardment & cannonade for 24 hours & have
not lost a man.  The enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion,
otherwise the garrison are to be put to the sword if the fort is taken.
I have answered the demand with a cannon shot, and our flag still waves
proudly from the walls.  I shall never surrender nor retreat.
                                         --William B. Travis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:25:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:25:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Information, please:  Kians
Message-ID: <200204030622.g336MGh15548@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
...
>     Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
>kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
>pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
>Cavalry.
>     Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?

  JTAS #9, per the "JTAS Index" from Jim V., posted 1 Mar 2002?

  Grenadier did a mini for `em, too :>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:24:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:24:43 -0700
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>; from jimv@uia.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:40:53PM -0800
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020402232443.G10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:40:53PM -0800, jimv wrote:
>
> In a way, we're living it (not meaning to start a flamewar over
> social policy, but it's my intuition that welfare recipients today
> probably live better than their hard working ancestors of centuries
> past)

Hell, the great majority of the poor in the USA are better off than
the great majority of mankind ever.  Obesity is a greater problem than
starvation.  Most own colour TVs; many own cars.  The poverty of the
American is the wealth of just about anyone at just about any other
time in history.

Not that there are not those who suffer in real poverty, of course.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home and leave us in
peace.  We seek not your counsel, nor your arms.  Crouch down and lick
the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our
country men.                                        --Samuel Adams

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:44:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:44:34 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402225752.027fbae0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <014b01c1dadb$03f89400$52200050@matt>

> Canonically, the largest possible starship is 1,000,000 under CT LBB 5,
and

No, its 1,000,000dton+...

The tonnage listed for a size category is the lower bound, the upper bound
being one dton less than the lower bound of the next size category. For the
1,000,000 dTon category there is no next category, so no upper bound.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:58:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:58:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aliens Among Us
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEGACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

This week in JTAS online is an excellent article that I would like to
recommend to everyone:

Aliens Among Us, by James Maliszewski
Another installment of Travellers' Tales

If you don't subscribe to JTAS online, you should.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:46:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:46:56 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices [long]
References: <200204030510.DFV03007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAAB370.B2E1DE88@premier.net>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> laning <laning@wizard.net>
> <snip size limits>
> 
> I think that limiting people to smaller ships really gives us
> the "small ship" Traveller.  So...
> 
> >
> >Now for the thorny part.  What does one have to do to a ship
> >to get it's full jump capability out of it?
> 
> For the first ten jumps (shakedown), roll 10+ to achieve the
> design jump rating, DM Average Engineering Skill Level of
> crew, maximum DM 4.  You must use refined fuel for these
> calibration jumps.  Failure results in a jump reduced by 1
> parsec per point failed.  This means that shipyards have to
> have rescue/refuelling ships ready to save shakedown failures.
> 
> Average the performance over the shakedown, and round up.
> This is the true Jump rating.  Note that in some cases, the
> military will not accept delivery of a ship that takes enough
> fuel for Jump-4 to only do a Jump-3.

Based on this specification, and assuming an average Engineering skill
of 2 (rather generous, given the large engineer contingents on
cruiser-sized vessels), an AHL-class Fleet Intruder would almost
certainly fail to achieve the designed 5-parsec range.  With an average
Engineering skill of 2, an AHL would require a roll of 8+ per jump, for
10 jumps.  There is a 15/36 (41.67%) chance per jump of meeting spec;
this means that for each calibration jump, there is a 21/36 (58.33%)
chance of failing by at least one point.  The average failure will be by
2 points, and your formula gives no bonus for exceeding the required
roll.  Assuming average results, we can expect there to be four
successful rolls (J-5 for each) and six failed rolls (with an expected
average of J-3).  20 + 18 / 10 gives an expected average performance of
J-3.8 (rounded up to J-4); this is 80% of the design performance of an
AHL-class Fleet Intruder.  Note that ships designed for J-4 will
generally only meet J-3 (75% of spec).

To use a modern analogy: the design speed for a WW II-era
_Cleveland_-class CL (the most numerous cruiser class ever built) was 33
knots.  Given your formula, it would be surprising to find a _Cleveland_
that could do over 26.4 knots (80% of 33 knots).  Further, even if the
first ship, or even the first three ships, of the class made design
speed, each additional example of the class would still be likely to be
limited to 26.4 knots.  The above assumes that a _Cleveland_-class CL is
equivalent to a J-5 ship.  If we assume that a _Cleveland_ is equivalent
to a J-4 vessel, we can conclude that the majority of such ships could
only make 24.75 knots (as opposed to a design speed of 33 knots). 
Clearly, this degree of variation from spec is unacceptable for a
production run of ships.

I would suggest that these rules apply to prototype ships (including the
requirement to replace jump drives [presumably of a slightly different
design]).  Once the bugs have been worked out of a design (i.e., at
least one ship of the class has performed to-spec, and the operational
reports have been forwarded to the designing shipyard), ships of a given
class should receive a positive modifier (I'd suggest +4; with an
average Engineering skill of 2, this gives a failure chance of 1/12 per
jump, with 2/3 of failures being only -1) to each roll; ships built by
yards other than the designing yard would receive an additional -1 until
they had built 1D ships that met jump specifications.  A natural roll of
2 is an automatic failure, regardless of modifiers.  IMPORTANT: **Any
ships begun during development stage of a given class would be treated
as prototypes.**  Given this last stipulation, few designs would go into
series production until the prototype was debugged.  This would serve to
limit the proliferation of new designs during times of crisis.

My suggestions would mean that it would take some effort to work the
bugs out of a prototype.  Few ships would be built of a given class
until the bugs had been worked out, and the designing shipyard would
receive the bulk of orders.

I would also suggest that the building yard must bear 1/2 of the cost to
bring an in-production ship up to spec; the ordering authority would
bear the entire cost to develop a prototype.  Naturally, a new design
proposed by a shipyard (as opposed to a new design requested by a buyer)
would require the designing shipyard to bear the entire cost of
prototype development. Note that, by requiring the ordering authority to
bear at least some of the cost, the ordering authority is encouraged to
use highly-trained crews for development and shakedowns.  This reflects
the "test pilot" mentality of those involved in developing a new class
of ship....
> 
> Straight rule -- ships displacing 5000 tons or less roll for
> shakedown on a 6+, not 10+.

I would use this as the rule for prototype ships of this size;
production models would gain the additional +4 (-1 if built by a yard
other than the designing yard).  This would allow smaller ships to be
developed more quickly and produced more rapidly once developed. 
Obviously, designing new classes of large ships would be much more
costly than designing new classes of smaller vessels.

Amortized ships (i.e., those assigned a "type" designation in CT LBB2 or
Supp7 [Type A/A1 Free Trader, Type A2 Far Trader, Type C Mercenary
Cruiser, Type CE Close Escort, Type J Seeker, Type M Subsidized Liner,
Type R Subsidized Merchant, Type S Scout/Courier, Type T Patrol Cruiser,
Type X Xboat, Type XT Xboat Tender and Type Y Yacht]) would not require
shakedown rolls at all.  Equivalent standard ships published in non-CT
rulesets are considered as amortized.  A design not assigned a "type"
designation would be considered amortized once at least 1000 ships of
that class had been successfully (i.e., to-spec) built in that TU.
> 
> Remedy:  Replace the jump drives.  See how expensive this is
> getting?

Under my approach, this would be common for prototype ships (thus adding
to the development costs), as the best jump drive configuration was
worked out by experience. I would also suggest that jump drive
replacement during development would cost 150% of the normal jump drive
replacement cost (after all, you have to pull the old drive out and
possibly modify the ship to mount the new drive).  Production ships
would rarely need to have drives replaced, as the prototypes would have
already determined the optimal drive configuration for that class;
failures to make spec would thus be considered as resulting from
defective or (in the case of ships built by yards other than the
designing yard) inappropriate jump drives.  Cost in the latter case
would be 125% of normal drive replacement cost.
> 
> >Can the jump capability decline over time even though it has
> >not been battle damaged and is being properly maintained?
> >
> 
> On the misjump roll, in addition to CT DMs
> -1 DM for every 10 years of drive age.
> -1 DM for every hit on the Jump drives if repaired
> -2 DM for every hit on the Jump drives not repaired (running
> with battle damage)
> -1 DM for every prior slight or minor misjump, even if
> repaired.
> -4 DM for every prior major misjump (after repairs)
> -1 DM if drive is not performing to design.

I would allow +1 per ship overhaul (10x cost of annual maintenance, and
requiring 1D/2 months); this bonus can only cancel penalties listed
above.  Replacing the jump drive would cancel all penalties listed above
(but, as noted below, would require recalibration).  Government-owned
vessels would probably undergo overhaul at least every five years
(upgrades would be installed at this time, as applicable).
> 
> Misjump itself is not just "randomly trip to nowhere".
> 
> I see slight, minor, major, and catastrophic misjumps.
> 
> Fail misjump roll by
> 1 = slight, ship misses destination by 1D6 x 0.1 parsec
> 2 = minor, same as jumping short during shakedown
> 3 = major, same as standard misjump
> 5 = catastrophic, you never come out of hyperspace

While I like the idea of this table, I don't altogether care for the
results.  I would suggest that slight and minor misjumps include a
temporal option along with their spatial option.  In other words, the
referee could assign time distortions in lieu of (or along with) the
spatial errors listed above.  After all, missing by .6 parsec can be
even worse than missing by a full parsec; a full-parsec miss could put
the ship in proximity to a different system, while a .6 parsec misjump
guarantees that the ship will be about 2 light-years from any system
(given a 1-parsec hex map).
> 
> Note that some captains might feel it worth the risk.  Some
> old traders are probably the equivalent of the African Queen.
> 
> Replacing jump drives involves recalibration, which means the
> shakedown happens again.

Again, for production-series ships, I would allow the modifiers
suggested above.
> 
<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:15:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:15:49 +1000
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020403181549.A15722@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> imagine the trend were extended such that everyone could live in
> idle luxury, and only a small percentage of the population need be
> employeed. What would that be like?

I suspect that people's idea of "luxury" would then extend to things
that take work to achieve.  If on welfare you can afford a new car
every year, then those who are employed (possibly in a 20-hour working
week) might be able to afford a new *starship* each year.  Or at least
a new *luxury* transport instead of an average model that merely gets
you from A to B in the spartan style of the early 21st century
"luxury" limousines.


I'm more interested in the *next* step: what if nobody needs to work
at all?  That is, what if anything that humans can do, some form of
machines can do just as well without needing humans to tell them how?

Unlike a number of science fiction authors, I am *far* from convinced
that the result would be a utopian society where your every whim could
be satisfied.  Even in the extreme case where you've got a universal
machine capable of doing anything that a human can do, you still need
a *lot* of them to do anything that a society as a whole can do.  Even
in the case where you've got a universal factory, it still needs the
appropriate designs, materials, energy, and time.  At least one of the
first three would probably belong to someone else, and so you've still
got scarcity of some sort.  Chances are that time is also not
unlimited.

In fact, I can imagine that a society with such advanced technology
might simply discount the value of human labour to near-zero.  The
rate of return on invested capital might be quite good, but if you've
got nothing to begin with and can't earn much through work then you're
in a bit of a bind.  You might not starve, but you'll have to acquire
capital via other means if you want to join the set of wealthy people
who actually have stuff other people want.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:05:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:05:54 -0800
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
>
>I'm drawing a blank for "zh" speakers.  Places that are vaguely middle
>eastern or central asian come to mind for some reason, but nothing
specific.

Mandarin has a lot of "zh", but Zdetl is not a tonal language.  Some of the
Slavic languages (Polish comes to mind) have insane consonant strings like
Zdetl.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:05:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:05:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEGBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>
>I find myself in the role of Mr. Movie.  For a pretty nasty story
>along these lines, take a look at the movie "Commando".  Our hero is
>blackmailed into taking on an assassination for the villians, but

"You're a funny man, Smelly.  I like you.  Dat's vhy I kill you lest."
Colonel John Matrix was named Father of the Year by Soldier of Fortune
magazine that year.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:54:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:54:53 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEMAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Like I would guess many peoples did, 
MTU (tm) just grew, accreting layers 
and lumps as bright shiny things 
attracted my eyes.

Well I've decided to do a new one up right.
thinking about what final conditions I want 
then deciding what conditions are needed to 
create them.  

What I want

a distant and non intrusive Imperium, with a 
vaguely libertarian outlook.

a low powered environment, PC's are low level 
players on the galactic scene.

The campaign is on a frontier, a la Spinward
 Marches

book two sized and powered ships are normal
(without necessarily using LBB two starship 
design), economic and physical forces work 
against large ships.

Mil spec toys are rare

Prices and rewards are at a level where 
a party could in game earn enough money to 
make down payment on a used starship and 
then keep up payments.

the interstellar iconology is healthy enough 
that a backwater system is looking at 10 or 
so ships a week (recalling that most ships 
tend to be small)

Mega-corps exist, but are far more important 
along main trade routes and major systems.

Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop 
2 worlds


Conditions

The imperium is interested in external defense, 
surveying and mapping, stable currency, internal 
communications.

Imperial taxes are very low.

Imperial currency is very stable, currency drafts are
excepted Imperium wide.  Local currency is
much less flexible and much less used.  

As an exception to the libertarianism of the Imperium, 
building large (spinal mount sized ) weapons is very 
restricted.  Likewise, brute force invasions of 
neighboring worlds is discouraged.

Most systems military is Coast Guard, National Guard 
level stuff.  They are oriented to stopping raiders 
and internal affairs.  

The Scout service is canon and very important, both 
as a survey operation and a communications office

While they can feed them selves, few systems are fully 
self supporting in other areas, lacks and shortfalls 
are usually obtainable within a susbsector, with smaller 
ships this tends to pump up ship traffic.

Development is concentrated in most cases to the main planet 
in system, the rest is unpatrolled and poorly explored.

Way / refueling stations exist in marginal systems where there 
are no colonies.  These system are very poorly explored, and 
lacking nice places for humans to live.

The average campaign world is TL 12 and are lower end 
population, 5 - 8 (Population is the population living 
in system, on both sides of the of the XT line and 
including permanently stationed troops.  Any fancy 
arrangement is described in the system listing)

High tech and high population world are hubs supporting 
surrounding lower tech and pop worlds.  Trade is usually 
surrounding -- Hub, and Hub -- Hub

Absent local conditions against it, most worlds have 
about a type C space port.  Spaceports have the maintenance 
ability one level higher then their build ability. 

Ships last a long time, absent combat damage and with 
proper maintenance, a 200 year old freighter is still 
functional.

Technology is stable, the rough edges have been 
worn off most standard designs centuries ago.

The Imperium makes public domain standardized plans for 
many thing available.  While local peculiarities exist, 
a surprisingly large number of items are standardized 
imperium wide. (unless of course it is for a plot point)

Pirates exists, not as ECMs but as semi organized groups 
in the fringes of the system.  A lot of time and effort 
of the local navies is spent chasing them down.
________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:34:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:34:26 +0200
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403123426.04d59074.jenry023@student.liu.se>

laning wrote:
> By the way, Jens, have you read Hal Clement's 'Mission of Gravity'?  A 
> great example of intelligent alien life forms evolving on a world
extremely 
> different from Terra.  A just plain extreme world, in fact.  Clement
opens 
> the hood and lets us peer into a lot of the alien building he does.  The

> book's a classic, in fact.

Nope, I haven't. And I doubt that the library has that book in stock. I've
placed it on the list of books to look for now, though.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:49:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:49:22 +1000
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Robots from Dragon/Book 8
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17904@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Hey TMLers,

I recently crunched a remake of the Dragon Article on Robots using elements
from Book 8. I have even done up about 10 or so bots, in the theme of
popular Sci Fi bots (not C3P0 though...) from da movies. Prices are cheaper
generally than Book 8, and there is much hand waving for all you gearheads
out there (so sue me). Skill resolution has been modified to fit my
mechanics but I would think is easier enough to engineer for whatever game
system you use to run Traveller. 

If anyone is interested email me off list

Mikey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:31:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:31:27 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices [long]
Message-ID: <200204031231.DGL00640@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

John Groth says
<snip good rules for prototypes> 

Sounds like a good way to keep the lid on ship size, and 
perhaps even on the total number of ships.

I am also wondering:  there are more than a few nations that 
could probably "afford" to build an aircraft carrier, but 
many of them don't, or are retiring those that they have.  I 
think that the costs of maintenance for larger ships is more 
significant than for a smaller ship.  

Any ideas on how to make the larger ship more expensive to 
maintain?  The USS Kennedy is a recent case in point.  It can 
still cruise around, but it doesn't take much to make it 
not "mission capable".
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:34:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:34:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] pbem starting
Message-ID: <200204031234.DGL00812@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Now taking players for a pbem set in the Corridor area.
CT rules, with some modifications.
If you are interested, please e-mail jtkwon@jtkgroup.com.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:12:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 08:12:11 -0500
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403080940.027e7b68@192.168.0.1>

At 09:40 PM 4/2/2002 -0800, jimv wrote:
> > One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the
> > price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial
> > cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very
> > much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be
> > possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for
> > mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the
> > fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator
> > runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to
> > ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of
> > the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.

Actually one of the cool things about T4 was a short bit about
how one lived at the poverty line in a TL C society.

Even though they lived very well compared to the poor in a TL 9 (or less) 
society,
you still had Haves and Haves Nots, so there was "Class" friction that could
be exploited.

>That and a lack of dirt. Actually, with cheap energy (ala fusion),
>transportation costs would probably plummet as well. I remember
>reading a book of short stories back in high school, and in one
>of them, the author posited that nuclear fusion created an era
>of plenty where people struggled to be good consumers (comsuming
>as much of everything as they could so as to keep the econony
>humming along... consuming became an occupation in itself). I
>thought the conclusion was rather silly, but the question raised
>(what would the world be like with cheap energy?) was certainly
>interesting, and it's something which I haven't really seen
>explored beyond the most superficial level. What would the
>world be like if supply so outstripped demand that the vast
>majority of people would no longer have to work. In a way, we're
>living it (not meaning to start a flamewar over social policy, but
>it's my intuition that welfare recipients today probably live
>better than their hard working ancestors of centuries past), but
>imagine the trend were extended such that everyone could live
>in idle luxury, and only a small percentage of the population
>need be employeed. What would that be like? I can't even scratch
>the surface of potential ramifications. -Jim
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem
among the poor than starvation. That's something that
would have been science fiction to anybody who grew up
before, say, 1900, or even 1950
-------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:32:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:32:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>
References: <20020402191127.6b66c4f3.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020402201432.444efd17.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Classic Traveller wrote:
> When it is completed I will publish it in PDF. That way it will
definitely
> see print "see print", if it is worth the paper to print it on ;)

No problem. I'll print it at the university for free  ;-)

How much material are you aiming at? What kind?

I imagine TAS could be used as an alternative to the intrigues among the
noble families. After all, the idle rich are always a good source for
strife. Just look at the old-school soap operas (Dallas, Falcon Crest,
etc) out there...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
Message-ID: <E16smpE-0002tC-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

If you listen very carefully at the end of the recording, with the right fi=
ltering you can just hear:
<RECORDING ON>
> PC's on a derelict free trader:
> PC1: "Hmmm, blood everywhere but no bodies"
> PC2: "The only thing on the manifest is penguins, yet
> the cargo bay is empty"
> PC3: "Who would slaughter an entire ships crew for
> penguins?"
> PC2: "They also took the small craft"
> PC1: "Whats that noise?"
> PC3: "What noise?"
> PC1: "Sounded like flapping of some kind"
> PC2: "Lets get back to the ship"
> PC1: "Okay lets go. <speaking into com> Hey Samantha,
> light up the drives where out of here"
> <No response>
> PC1: "Samantha?, do you read?"
> PC2: "Hey wheres Jimmy?"
> PC1: <Spinning around to search for Jimmy> "Jimmy,
> jimmy?"

(soft singing, low voice) Scooby duby do...

> <END RECORDING>
>=20
> James
>=20

Beth


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:42:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:42:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEMAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403103415.00a8a750@pop.wizard.net>

John-Martin describes his new world order Traveller universe.  Which sounds 
awfully like CT when there were still only a few books published.

You may want to go with CT, and a few house rules.  Maintenance capability 
of starports being one higher than construction capability, for 
instance.  Which sounds like a pretty good rule.  Take CT material 
published from Trillion Credit Squadron onwards with a grain of salt, or 
even ignore it.  TCS economics tend to make the Imperium and other stellar 
empires be too omnipresent and powerful for the universe you 
described.  You may be happiest with the Azhanti High Lightning as one of 
the most important warships of its time, or even the Kinunir.  Take Book 5 
- High Guard out of the ship construction rules entirely.  That would limit 
the largest ships to 5,000 tons.  Or use Book 5 only for 
referee-constructed ships.  Although you did say you don't want to use LBB 
2, either.  Sounds like you will need either extensive mods of existing 
rules or to write your own from scratch.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEMAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <20020403155041.62193.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  Please see below for comments......
  >>
--- John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Like I would guess many peoples did, 
> MTU (tm) just grew, accreting layers 
> and lumps as bright shiny things 
> attracted my eyes.
> 
> Well I've decided to do a new one up right.
> thinking about what final conditions I want 
> then deciding what conditions are needed to 
> create them.  
> 
> What I want
> 
> a distant and non intrusive Imperium, with a 
> vaguely libertarian outlook.
> 
  >>
  I'm there.....
  >>
>
> a low powered environment, PC's are low level 
> players on the galactic scene.
> 
> The campaign is on a frontier, a la Spinward
>  Marches
>
  >>
  Kewl-ness......
  >>
> 
> book two sized and powered ships are normal
> (without necessarily using LBB two starship 
> design), economic and physical forces work 
> against large ships.
>
  >>
  Very cool....
  >>
> 
> Mil spec toys are rare
>
  >>
  Hmmm, verging on uh-oh....
  >>
> 
> Prices and rewards are at a level where 
> a party could in game earn enough money to 
> make down payment on a used starship and 
> then keep up payments.
>
  >>
  Given that the starship economy of Book 2
essentially encourages charactors to skip on their
creditors, I'm SO there....
  >>
>
> the interstellar iconology is healthy enough 
> that a backwater system is looking at 10 or 
> so ships a week (recalling that most ships 
> tend to be small)
>
  >>
  See the 'coda' below under 'Conditions'....
  >>
> 
> Mega-corps exist, but are far more important 
> along main trade routes and major systems.
>
  >>
  OK...but you're hamstringing a good plot device...
  >>
> 
> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop 
> 2 worlds
>
  >>
  .....YES!!!FINALLY!!!..... 
  >>
>
> 
> Conditions
> 
> The imperium is interested in external defense, 
> surveying and mapping, stable currency, internal 
> communications.
> 
> Imperial taxes are very low.
> 
> Imperial currency is very stable, currency drafts
> are
> excepted Imperium wide.  Local currency is
> much less flexible and much less used.  
> 
> As an exception to the libertarianism of the
> Imperium, 
> building large (spinal mount sized ) weapons is very
> restricted.  Likewise, brute force invasions of 
> neighboring worlds is discouraged.
> 
  >>
  The above points are already extant in the 3I,
IIRC......
  >>
>
> Most systems military is Coast Guard, National Guard
> level stuff.  They are oriented to stopping raiders 
> and internal affairs.  
>
  >>
  That's how I've always viewed planetary forces...
  >>
> 
> The Scout service is canon and very important, both 
> as a survey operation and a communications office
>
  >>
  No worries here....
  >>
> 
> While they can feed them selves, few systems are
> fully  self supporting in other areas, lacks and 
> shortfalls are usually obtainable within a 
> susbsector, with smaller ships this tends to pump up
> ship traffic.
> 
> Development is concentrated in most cases to the
> main planet 
> in system, the rest is unpatrolled and poorly
> explored.
> 
  >>
  CODA: Why? At the level of shipping you're talking
about, the only way to ship useful quantities of
product is by BIG carriers(e.g., LASH-type
freighters). 

  It's a lot more economical for a system government
to either encourage or subsidize[sp?] outer system
developement, either by gov't contractors or
(preferably) by 'native' belter-type operator's.
  >>
>
> Way / refueling stations exist in marginal systems
> where there 
> are no colonies.  These system are very poorly
> explored, and 
> lacking nice places for humans to live.
>
  >>
  Who pays for this? The only way to make it
economical enough to be of commercial utility (vs
skimming) is to lower the cost of the fuel provided by
the station's. If they (the ship-driver's) are charged
'market rates', the cost of this fuel will drive up
shipping costs to the point where merchants and
consumers at the recieving end won't be willing to
pay.

  See 'CODA'....
  >>
>
> The average campaign world is TL 12 and are lower
> end 
> population, 5 - 8 (Population is the population
> living 
> in system, on both sides of the of the XT line and 
> including permanently stationed troops.  Any fancy 
> arrangement is described in the system listing)
>
  >>
  Why so low?
  >>
> 
> High tech and high population world are hubs
> supporting 
> surrounding lower tech and pop worlds.  Trade is
> usually 
> surrounding -- Hub, and Hub -- Hub
> 
  >>
  That's how it usually runs.....
  >>
>
> Absent local conditions against it, most worlds have
> about a type C space port.  Spaceports have the
> maintenance 
> ability one level higher then their build ability. 
>
  >>
  This has always been my biggest saw about starports
in Trav: Why are there so many 'D' and 'E' class
ports? With a comparitivley small amount of time and
money, upgrading to at least 'C-' is a pretty small
chore......
  >>
>
> Ships last a long time, absent combat damage and
> with 
> proper maintenance, a 200 year old freighter is
> still 
> functional.
>
  >>
  That's how I always saw these ships....
  >>
> 
> Technology is stable, the rough edges have been 
> worn off most standard designs centuries ago.
> 
> The Imperium makes public domain standardized plans
> for 
> many thing available.  While local peculiarities
> exist, 
> a surprisingly large number of items are
> standardized 
> imperium wide. (unless of course it is for a plot
> point)
> 
  >>
  I'm OK with the stability part. Isn't there
something in GT about a standardised set of plans?
  >>
>
> Pirates exists, not as ECMs but as semi organized
> groups 
> in the fringes of the system.  A lot of time and
> effort 
> of the local navies is spent chasing them down.
> 
  >>
  Of course.
  >>
> 
> jml
> 
  >>
  MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
Message-ID: <200204031552.DGR04348@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Beth" says
>> PC3: "Who would slaughter an entire ships crew for
>> penguins?"

Penguins is practically chickens.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 08:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] inheritance Imperial style
Message-ID: <200204031616.DGS00004@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Was just looking at various types of inheritance in history, 
and two were contrasted.  Gavelkind, where all sons share in 
the inheritance equally, and primogeniture, where only the 
eldest gets the goods.

Apparently a driving force behind land acquisition, and when 
the land ran out, the seizure of land from others, was 
primogeniture.  It also provided knights for the Crusade.

"A noble class dependent for its power and position upon the 
possession of land - or, to be more accurate, it's right to 
collect taxes and services from the residents of the land - 
had emerged over the previous century, and the population of 
that hereditary class was growing. As long as the Frankish 
monarchs had continued conquering new lands, there were 
always new districts to distribute to the nobility. Now that 
expansion had ceased, however, the nobles began to suffer 
from "land-hunger" and began to evolve into something 
different from what the had originally been. They took 
complete control of the lands they had been appointed to 
govern in the offices of count, duke, and margrave and to 
treat them as personal possessions. They began to demand 
payment in land for helping one or the other side in the 
incessant civil wars. When the Carolingian monarchs no longer 
had royal lands to give in exchange for support, the fighting 
nobles took over the lands of the churches and the 
monasteries that the central government - such as it was - 
could no longer protect. Even so, they could not continue 
dividing their lands into smaller and smaller pieces. During 
the course of the ninth and early tenth centuries, in a 
process that can be discerned only dimly, the aristocracy of 
western Europe abandoned the deeply-rooted custom of 
gavelkind and replaced it with primogeniture ("first-born"), 
a system in which the core of a family's lands was kept 
intact and passed automatically to the eldest son. In this 
fashion, the empire was shattered into hundreds of 
practically independent districts, each owned and ruled by a 
local strong man in command of a small body of fighting men 
and a castle.

Such a state cannot maintain a navy, so the remnants of the 
Carolingian empire were easy pickings for sea-borne raiders 
from Scandinavia (the Vikings) and from North Africa (the 
Saracens), as well as mounted raiders from central Asia (the 
Magyars, or Hungarians)."

Given the nature of our maps in Traveller, could an 
empire "run out of land"?  Could the current empire be 
described as "hundreds of independent districts, each owned 
and rules by a local strong man (or government) in command of 
a small body of fighting men and a castle (a small army, 
navy, and starbases)"?

I don't think I need the Virus to have the empire fall into 
another Long Night. Piracy at that point might be any ship 
with a weapon.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Wed Apr  3 08:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller PBeMs
In-Reply-To: <B8CF3437.341C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CABA198.12635.5425D9@localhost>

I just started in one, but I'm not the GM.  The GM is Charlotte 
Manton <Charlotte.Manton@btopenworld.com>, and she said 
she's definitely willing to accept new players.  I don't think the 
game has a web page yet, though, so ask her if you have 
questions.

-- Rachel Kronick
.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Wed Apr  3 08:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <F306Upm0RnzXotJAadV00014e0d@hotmail.com>

David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>On rule of thumb in security is that the hard you make it for
>unwarranted intrusion, the harder you make it for authorized people

A corralary to this: the harder you make it for authorized
people, the more likely it is that the authorized people will
disable the security.  If all your passwords are twenty-character
random alphanumeric strings, expect to see sticky notes with the
passwords written on them stuck everywhere the passwords will
be used.  If that retinal scanner makes the crew sit through
three or four rescans before it lets them in, or mistakes them
for a terrorist a couple times a week, expect the retinal scanner
to be bypassed before the ship comes out of its first jump.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:06:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:06:11 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CAB365A.5070001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>or look up flux compressors 
>>
>>The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures 
>>I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius 
>>kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.
>>
>>Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find
>>anything.  OK, I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite
>>terrorist building these? --
> 
> 
> That's a very good question.  I've read speculation that they may 
> have been used in some places, but I'd think the evidence would be 
> pretty obvious (lots of fried computers).  At that point, I'm guessing 
> that most terrorists want to see blood far more than lost data.

There is speculation that they have been used, but in the commission of 
crimes. (good way to whack alarm systems.)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:07:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:07:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <ba.23b5ccdc.29dc9067@aol.com>

--part1_ba.23b5ccdc.29dc9067_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 02/04/02 20:00:27 GMT Daylight Time, thing@moonwise.com 
writes:


> > Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs
> > starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're
> > borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.
> >
> > The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not
> to
> > let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can
> probably
> > see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information
> than
> > you wish to give out.
> 
> Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
> intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low 
> power
> biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.  If the
> security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
> vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
> other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.

Actually I was thinking of MRI or sound based scanning systems. Plus the 
ability of a device to scan through a visor in a variety of EM spectrums and 
actually see what its looking at.

Its not necessarily eay to fool the system if it "knows" the vacc suit or 
expects the operator to use a code to validate the data. I'm not saying that 
biometric data alone will be used - I agree that that would be overly simple 
and easy to defeat. I would expect at least a dual system of biometrics and 
code or key (or both). 

> 
> > If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems
> for
> > opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a 
> glitch
> > then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to
> a
> > specialist lock-smith.
> 
> If there is a mechanical system for opening the door than it comes down to
> cutting the power to the doors locking mechanism so that you can operate 
> the
> manual.  This usually wouldn't be too difficult.
> 
> G.D.D.
> 
It's not too difficult to conceive of a lockout that knows the difference 
between a power failure and a someone cutting the supply to the locks 
mechanism. It may be as simple as having a number of different sensors 
located around the door. A person wishing to cut the power *only* to the 
doors mechanism must therefore be able to, effectively, remove the door from 
its setting. If they can do that then a lock isn't going to stop them getting 
in :).

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_ba.23b5ccdc.29dc9067_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 20:00:27 GMT Daylight Time, thing@moonwise.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs<BR>
&gt; starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're<BR>
&gt; borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not<BR>
to<BR>
&gt; let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can<BR>
probably<BR>
&gt; see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information<BR>
than<BR>
&gt; you wish to give out.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low<BR>
intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power<BR>
biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.&nbsp; If the<BR>
security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like<BR>
vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most<BR>
other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Actually I was thinking of MRI or sound based scanning systems. Plus the ability of a device to scan through a visor in a variety of EM spectrums and actually see what its looking at.<BR>
<BR>
Its not necessarily eay to fool the system if it "knows" the vacc suit or expects the operator to use a code to validate the data. I'm not saying that biometric data alone will be used - I agree that that would be overly simple and easy to defeat. I would expect at least a dual system of biometrics and code or key (or both). </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
&gt; If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems<BR>
for<BR>
&gt; opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch<BR>
&gt; then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to<BR>
a<BR>
&gt; specialist lock-smith.<BR>
<BR>
If there is a mechanical system for opening the door than it comes down to<BR>
cutting the power to the doors locking mechanism so that you can operate the<BR>
manual.&nbsp; This usually wouldn't be too difficult.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
It's not too difficult to conceive of a lockout that knows the difference between a power failure and a someone cutting the supply to the locks mechanism. It may be as simple as having a number of different sensors located around the door. A person wishing to cut the power *only* to the doors mechanism must therefore be able to, effectively, remove the door from its setting. If they can do that then a lock isn't going to stop them getting in :).<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_ba.23b5ccdc.29dc9067_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204030510.DFV03007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017853751.1367.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> laning <laning@wizard.net>  
> <snip size limits>
> 
> I think that limiting people to smaller ships really gives us 
> the "small ship" Traveller.

Unfortunately, it gives us the '50,000 small ships' traveller, which is in fact
worse for roleplaying than the '500 big ships' traveller.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215009.0283aec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017853921.54.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> Leonard Erickson, in replying to JimV said:
> 
> >BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
> >higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
> >artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
> >playing "grav pong" with hijackers.
> Sounds like we see it the same way.  Although +6 gees to -6 gees in less 
> than one second should be sufficient grav pong to deal with most hijackers.

I prefer to see grav compensation as being a side effect of the drives, which
means grav pong is impossible (well, artificial gravity can still be used, but
one can easily claim that it takes a while to cycle).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se> <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CAB3843.2060604@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
>>reprinted in various places.
> 
> 
> I Google'd around, but all I could find was webpages mentioning it. It
> would seem that it is available in various paper reprints, but not on the
> web. Sad...


I have at least one of them at home. If it's easily accessible, I'll dig 
it out and see what's there.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (long) Re: inheritance Imperial style
In-Reply-To: <200204031616.DGS00004@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403112658.025000c0@pop.wizard.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
>Was just looking at various types of inheritance in history,
>and two were contrasted.  Gavelkind, where all sons share in
>the inheritance equally, and primogeniture, where only the
>eldest gets the goods.
>
>Apparently a driving force behind land acquisition, and when
>the land ran out, the seizure of land from others, was
>primogeniture.  It also provided knights for the Crusade.
IIRC, the Albigensian Crusade was the first Crusade.  It is probably most 
famous nowadays for providing us with the motto, "Kill them all, God will 
know his own."  People nowadays usually say 'sort them out' instead of 
'know his own', but it amounts to the same thing.

The reason for the famous quote was that the clergy accompanying the French 
knights were dismayed when they saw the French indiscriminately killing 
Albigensians who were quite possibly Christian.  Or even obviously 
Christian.  The French were largely motivated by wanting to take the land 
from their Albigensian neighbors, and the blessing from the Pope was merely 
the thinnest of rationalizations for their actions.  Once they were in the 
heat of action, they were even less concerned about needing a rationalization.

<<<snippage of a interesting passage too long to bear repeating>>>
>Given the nature of our maps in Traveller, could an
>empire "run out of land"?  Could the current empire be
>described as "hundreds of independent districts, each owned
>and rules by a local strong man (or government) in command of
>a small body of fighting men and a castle (a small army,
>navy, and starbases)"?
>
>I don't think I need the Virus to have the empire fall into
>another Long Night. Piracy at that point might be any ship
>with a weapon.

I agree that the threat of another Long Night exists without having to 
resort to a gross deus ex machina like the Virus.  (And I do mean 
gross.)  But most land within the Imperium belongs to the local 
government.  The Imperium only holds legal sway over the space between the 
stars and planets.  The Emperor can award fiefs, and they can be inherited, 
but I'm sure they very long ago ran out of land that could thus be owned 
and inherited.

What the Imperium possesses and the late medieval Europeans lacked are a 
sophisticated and robust economic system, and nonhereditary institutions 
(megacorps and the Navy) that share power with the nobility.  This things 
make all the difference.

The existence of much more complex and sophisticated economic mechanisms 
than tenth-century Europeans had means that land inheritance is not the 
main life blood of economics.  Extensive and fairly efficient markets exist 
for virtually everything, and capital is extremely liquid.  Land tends to 
be held by corporations, and if a corporation folds, there are bankruptcy 
regulations to oversee the distribution of assets, which go immediately 
back into the economy instead of being held closely held by one family.

The Emperors and Empresses make a point of retaining ultimate ownership of 
fiefs they award, and they can resume direct control of them at will.  A 
local noble who attempts to resist that will have to contend with a very 
powerful central Navy.  Not even in the case of the excellently written 
LandGrab of Vincennes can locals seriously hope to defy the Emperor, 
because of this powerful Navy.  Nobles jockey for power and influence over 
the Navy, and in times gone by there were even a series of Barracks 
Emperors who seized the iridium throne simply because they thought they 
could get away with it.  The Barracks Emperors each relied on fleets of the 
supposedly central Navy.

The emperors since have learned the lesson and maintain strong control of 
the Navy.  When the civil war following Strephon's assassination resulted 
in the Navy being fractured, that's only because the authors had gone to 
great pains to create the conditions for honest doubt among admirals over 
exactly who had the best legal claim.  Under normal conditions the Navy 
remains loyal to the throne.  The way I understand it, Dulinor's beef with 
Strephon was that he was encouraging sector dukes to become too powerful 
and that would lead to the danger of a breakup or civil war.  Ironically, 
Dulinor precipitated exactly what he said he was trying to 
prevent.  Although I suspect his ego clouded his judgment and his motives 
were less pure than he himself believed.

Power and ownership of assets are divided between the throne, corporations, 
and system governments.  Economic life is diverse, active, and fully 
developed.  The division of power and assets acts somewhat like the famous 
system of checks and balances between the three branches of government in 
the US.  The mature and sophisticated economic life prevents assets from 
becoming concentrated more and more into the hands of an hereditary few 
(unless you take your economics with a lump of Marxism :-) and thus 
becoming a scarcer and scarcer resource with this trend creating conflict 
over the scarcity.

In the absence of outside threat, the greatest danger that persists inside 
the Imperium is in its only major institution that is completely 
hereditary--selecting who sits on the throne.  A series of poor emperors, 
or even just one, could potentially wreak havoc on the other institutions 
that are the main props of the system.

I have demonstrated that the Imperium is held together and fluorishes 
because of its inherently stabilizing structure, and its good fortune to 
have sufficient population and technology and legal institutions that 
promote an economic structure capable of keeping the healthy flow of 
liquidity to all the centers of power within the Imperium.  Not bad, 
considering it's just rationalizing a _very_ fictional science fiction 
backstory that was mostly created as an excuse for roleplaying games that 
visit thousands of different worlds and thus thousands of different science 
fiction stories.  :->

Oh.  The nature of the maps in Traveller.  Megacorps should be falling all 
over themselves to expand into the areas beyond the frontier and either 
create their own puppet empires or bring them into the Imperial fold.  And 
they should be falling all over themselves and fighting each other for 
control and exploitation of resources in the bazillions of neglected 
"backwaters" within Imperial borders.  It should be something like the 
story of the American West from the advent of the railroad through the end 
of the century.  All the canonical indications are that unexploited planets 
tend to remain so for decades and centuries at a time.  That bothers me.  I 
think the original idea was to provide not just Victorians in space, but 
also a version of the wild and woolly frontier that the real Victorians had 
in the American West and to lesser degrees elsewhere around the 
globe.  That was to set the stage for referees to run their own campaigns 
that saw dramatic and interesting changes sweep across the map, with the 
players being part of all that.  As time progressed and more backstory of 
the Imperium was written things became more static.  Probably, the original 
strategic vision was somewhat lost in the tactics of customers clamoring 
for more information about the Imperium and places within the 
Imperium.  Pure speculation of course.  My record on pure speculation is 
less than reliable.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] inheritance Imperial style
References: <200204031616.DGS00004@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB3D63.2000904@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Such a state cannot maintain a navy, so the remnants of the 
> Carolingian empire were easy pickings for sea-borne raiders 
> from Scandinavia (the Vikings) and from North Africa (the 
> Saracens), as well as mounted raiders from central Asia (the 
> Magyars, or Hungarians)."
> 
> Given the nature of our maps in Traveller, could an 
> empire "run out of land"?  Could the current empire be 
> described as "hundreds of independent districts, each owned 
> and rules by a local strong man (or government) in command of 
> a small body of fighting men and a castle (a small army, 
> navy, and starbases)"?
> 
> I don't think I need the Virus to have the empire fall into 
> another Long Night. Piracy at that point might be any ship 
> with a weapon.

You just described the Aslan itahei.

Pirates at that point arent' pirates, but raiders, in the sense that 
they attack planets not other ships, which is an *entirely* different 
kettle of fish.

However, if you defind 'land' as 'someplace where you collect taxes from 
production thereon' The 3I will not run out of land anytime soon.

In addition to the vast number of underpoulated systems, belts, etc, 
'new' land can be constructed at any time, just about anywhere, via 
building space habs.

Building O'Neill-style colonies is cheap in Traveller.

Look at the costs of an asteroid hull, sometime...amazingly cheap.

Then, the scenario you described is amply laid out in 'Hard Times', and 
on one of the mother sources of Traveller, 'Space Vikings' by H. Beam 
Piper.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <3CAB365A.5070001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <B8D08114.346CC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/3/02 9:05 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

> 
> There is speculation that they have been used, but in the commission of
> crimes. (good way to whack alarm systems.)

Aside from theory, has anyone actually tested a device of this kind?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <B8D08114.346CC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB45FC.5060802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 4/3/02 9:05 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:
> 
> 
>>There is speculation that they have been used, but in the commission of
>>crimes. (good way to whack alarm systems.)
> 
> 
> Aside from theory, has anyone actually tested a device of this kind?
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.

I remember reading someone's account of making and setting one off. He 
described stopping clocks and other electrical and electronic devices at 
a range of approx 1/4 mile. IIRC it was rather directional.

I don't, however, remember the reference, whether it was on the web or 
the list.

However, since making a pipe bomb is an integral part of making one of 
these devices, I suspect people are rather circumspect regarding their , 
ahh, experimentation along these lines...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402205809.027d9ba0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CABBC5E.30314.BCBF6D@localhost>

Hi all!

I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists 
Table (UTT), where you roll and a result like "Antagonist turns out 
to be Protagonist's long-lost relative" or "20 drunken goons ambush 
the PC on the way home" or whatever come up.  we could make a 
big UTT with a thousand or so entries so repeats are rare...

-- Rachel


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <182.62a974a.29dca666@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 22:58:51 GMT Daylight Time, 
ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:


> TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.  
> One
> assumes the neutron problems have been solved.
> 

Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing "up" 
to He4 :)

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 22:58:51 GMT Daylight Time, ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.&nbsp; One<BR>
assumes the neutron problems have been solved.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing "up" to He4 :)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_182.62a974a.29dca666_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
References: <182.62a974a.29dca666@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB4D53.2FCA27E3@premier.net>

Charles writes:

> TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.  One
> assumes the neutron problems have been solved.

Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing
"up" to He4 :)

Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
opposed to deuterium or tritium)?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204031846.DGX03548@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Subject: Re: [TML] handy device  
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>
>Aside from theory, has anyone actually tested a device of 
this kind?
>--
There is supposed to be a test facility in New Mexico where 
several of these were fabricated and tested to see if it 
worked.  Not sure, but it might have been Kirtland AFB.

They are testing other types of electromagnetic weapons there.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:48:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:48:35 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <3CAB4D53.2FCA27E3@premier.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017859666.3145.ajackson@ping>

John Groth writes:
> Charles writes:
> 
> > TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to
> > He4.  One assumes the neutron problems have been solved.
> 
> Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing
> "up" to He4 :)
> 
> Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
> opposed to deuterium or tritium)?

No, P-P probably would be phosphorus.  I should have written p-p.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402222929.02df3008@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402222929.02df3008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3cac4775.11204799@post.demon.co.uk>

Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:

>Well...given the 'canon' cold war setup, the Zho would have Russian =
Accents.
[...]
>Your basic heavy handed eastern European accent.

Of course...  The classic "Zhodani Philosophies" article in JTAS 23
can only be read with a really thick fake Russian accent:

"...contrary to what your holographic film directors seem to think, we
smile (and even laugh) as often as Imperials...
"...We are not robots.  Creativity, divergence of opinion, freedom of
expression... we have all of these within the Consulate.  Our
government is not oppressive...[...]  In return, our citizens respect,
obey and freely criticize their rulers (as is their duty)."

Stephen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <53.14a0b708.29dcabc3@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 18:50:46 GMT Daylight Time, 
jenry023@student.liu.se writes:


> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
> function using radically different biochemistries?
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> 

Stanley Schmidts "Aliens and Alien Societies" is reasonably useful. It's 
available from Amazon and there's some intersting stuff floating around out 
on the web

http://library.thinkquest.org/C003763/index.php?page=index&tqskip1=1&
tqtime=0402

Is an example.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 18:50:46 GMT Daylight Time, jenry023@student.liu.se writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might<BR>
function using radically different biochemistries?<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Stanley Schmidts "Aliens and Alien Societies" is reasonably useful. It's available from Amazon and there's some intersting stuff floating around out on the web<BR>
<BR>
http://library.thinkquest.org/C003763/index.php?page=index&amp;tqskip1=1&amp;tqtime=0402<BR>
<BR>
Is an example.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_53.14a0b708.29dcabc3_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <20020403155041.62193.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEOAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

  MACessna wrote
  >>
  Please see below for comments......
  >>
--- John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Like I would guess many peoples did,
> MTU (tm) just grew, accreting layers
> and lumps as bright shiny things
> attracted my eyes.
>
> Well I've decided to do a new one up right.
> thinking about what final conditions I want
> then deciding what conditions are needed to
> create them.
>
> What I want
>
> a distant and non intrusive Imperium, with a
> vaguely libertarian outlook.
>
  >>
  I'm there.....
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

yeppers, I'm an old crack who likes the original CT setting

>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> a low powered environment, PC's are low level
> players on the galactic scene.
>
> The campaign is on a frontier, a la Spinward
>  Marches
>
  >>
  Kewl-ness......
  >>
>
> book two sized and powered ships are normal
> (without necessarily using LBB two starship
> design), economic and physical forces work
> against large ships.
>
  >>
  Very cool....
  >>
>
> Mil spec toys are rare
>
  >>
  Hmmm, verging on uh-oh....
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

People who strap on a PGMP-15 to go to the
'fresher annoy me,  IMTU they'll have to make
do with a shotgun.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Prices and rewards are at a level where
> a party could in game earn enough money to
> make down payment on a used starship and
> then keep up payments.
>
  >>
  Given that the starship economy of Book 2
essentially encourages charactors to skip on their
creditors, I'm SO there....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

traveller space ship, things you ride around
in until you run out of money (this applies to
riding or ownership).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  >>
>
> the interstellar iconology is healthy enough
> that a backwater system is looking at 10 or
> so ships a week (recalling that most ships
> tend to be small)
>
  >>
  See the 'coda' below under 'Conditions'....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
see below coda for my response

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  >>
>
> Mega-corps exist, but are far more important
> along main trade routes and major systems.
>
  >>
  OK...but you're hamstringing a good plot device...
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh they exist elsewhere, just they are less important

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
> 2 worlds
>
  >>
  .....YES!!!FINALLY!!!.....
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
have you ever seen my semi-regular Binges rant?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
> Conditions
>
> The imperium is interested in external defense,
> surveying and mapping, stable currency, internal
> communications.
>
> Imperial taxes are very low.
>
> Imperial currency is very stable, currency drafts
> are
> excepted Imperium wide.  Local currency is
> much less flexible and much less used.
>
> As an exception to the libertarianism of the
> Imperium,
> building large (spinal mount sized ) weapons is very
> restricted.  Likewise, brute force invasions of
> neighboring worlds is discouraged.
>
  >>
  The above points are already extant in the 3I,
IIRC......
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
yep and that I like ''cept mine is less present, systems
join and stay because of the currency union aspect alone
IFIAK.  That and the party favors given out on Fleet Day.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  >>
>
> Most systems military is Coast Guard, National Guard
> level stuff.  They are oriented to stopping raiders
> and internal affairs.
>
  >>
  That's how I've always viewed planetary forces...
  >>
>
> The Scout service is canon and very important, both
> as a survey operation and a communications office
>
  >>
  No worries here....
  >>
>
> While they can feed them selves, few systems are
> fully  self supporting in other areas, lacks and
> shortfalls are usually obtainable within a
> susbsector, with smaller ships this tends to pump up
> ship traffic.
>
> Development is concentrated in most cases to the
> main planet
> in system, the rest is unpatrolled and poorly
> explored.
>
  >>
  CODA: Why? At the level of shipping you're talking
about, the only way to ship useful quantities of
product is by BIG carriers(e.g., LASH-type
freighters).

  It's a lot more economical for a system government
to either encourage or subsidize[sp?] outer system
developement, either by gov't contractors or
(preferably) by 'native' belter-type operator's.
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In the long run they will develop. This is a frontier,
at this time sales are too small for many markets to
roll the own everything,  Imagine whole subsectors relying
on Yugotech ground cars, -- available in any color you
want as long as it's lime green.  aftermarket add-ons
are probably made locally.

This by the way is a reason for lots of smaller ships.  Dealers
of whatever take orders in small lots from the factory, smaller
tramps do just fine carrying the loads needed.  Think two or
thee car carrier semis scale to the dealership, not a bulk carrier
hauling all those car across the ocean.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Way / refueling stations exist in marginal systems
> where there
> are no colonies.  These system are very poorly
> explored, and
> lacking nice places for humans to live.
>
  >>
  Who pays for this? The only way to make it
economical enough to be of commercial utility (vs
skimming) is to lower the cost of the fuel provided by
the station's. If they (the ship-driver's) are charged
'market rates', the cost of this fuel will drive up
shipping costs to the point where merchants and
consumers at the recieving end won't be willing to
pay.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

They tend to be where classic trav might have a
lo pop lousy living condition planet,  They make
money because a ship saves however much time it
takes to go 100 d for a gas giant, wilderness
refuel, go back to 100 d's and process your fuel.

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  See 'CODA'...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

seperatish issue in my opinion, besides
they are a neat place for Ancient artifacts
to lurk.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
  >>
>
> The average campaign world is TL 12 and are lower
> end
> population, 5 - 8 (Population is the population
> living
> in system, on both sides of the of the XT line and
> including permanently stationed troops.  Any fancy
> arrangement is described in the system listing)
>
  >>
  Why so low?
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
somehow a population in the billion fails to jibe
with my vision of a frontier world, recall that
these are frontier worlds.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> High tech and high population world are hubs
> supporting
> surrounding lower tech and pop worlds.  Trade is
> usually
> surrounding -- Hub, and Hub -- Hub
>
  >>
  That's how it usually runs.....
  >>
>
> Absent local conditions against it, most worlds have
> about a type C space port.  Spaceports have the
> maintenance
> ability one level higher then their build ability.
>
  >>
  This has always been my biggest saw about starports
in Trav: Why are there so many 'D' and 'E' class
ports? With a comparitivley small amount of time and
money, upgrading to at least 'C-' is a pretty small
chore......
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

yep another SRR bait

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Ships last a long time, absent combat damage and
> with
> proper maintenance, a 200 year old freighter is
> still
> functional.
>
  >>
  That's how I always saw these ships....
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I see Jamison's ship as 300 plus years old, his corp. bought it used and
used it hard on speculative runs

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Technology is stable, the rough edges have been
> worn off most standard designs centuries ago.
>
> The Imperium makes public domain standardized plans
> for
> many thing available.  While local peculiarities
> exist,
> a surprisingly large number of items are
> standardized
> imperium wide. (unless of course it is for a plot
> point)
>
  >>
  I'm OK with the stability part. Isn't there
something in GT about a standardised set of plans?
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Spaceport mention something like this I believe.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Pirates exists, not as ECMs but as semi organized
> groups
> in the fringes of the system.  A lot of time and
> effort
> of the local navies is spent chasing them down.
>
  >>
  Of course.
  >>
>
> jml
>
  >>
  MACessna
  >>
>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
Message-ID: <e4.25704b2c.29dcb669@aol.com>

--part1_e4.25704b2c.29dcb669_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stomped on dupe names, got rid of those underscore characters, and
bumped up the pop and tech scores for a dozen or so worlds. See what
this gives us.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

--part1_e4.25704b2c.29dcb669_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; name="aldebaran.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="aldebaran.txt"

Avalon                0106  B767845-A   Ri                     623 So
Banners               0110  B645878-7                          824 So
Threshold             0121  B66735A-9   Lo Ni                  202 So
Carson                0123  B465888-9   Ri                     323 So
Victory               0124  C7955A7-6   Ag Ni                  422 So
Aphrodite             0125  C8B0243-9   De Lo Ni               924 So
Ryerson               0126  E592333-5   Lo Ni                  401 So
Barrens               0127  B241566-B   Ni Po                  224 So
Jewelbox              0128  B857457-C   Ni                     711 So
Ormuz                 0131  E460357-6   De Lo Ni               112 So
923-211               0139  X6B2000-0   Ba Fl                  420 Na
Morgan                0201  A7759BB-D   Hi In                  310 So
Euler                 0202  C21046A-A   Ni                     722 So
Urania                0203  B574755-B   Ag                     901 So
Arrakis               0206  B460858-C   De Ri                  422 So
Hesiod                0207  C56778C-8   Ag Ri                  225 So
Ehlai                 0211  AAC259B-D   Fl Ni                  700 So
Gamma                 0212  B642614-7   Ni Po                  124 So
Chiron                0217  B310788-9   Na                     904 So
Pericles              0220  B457404-C   Ni                     422 So
Omar                  0222  B596578-B N Ag Ni                  223 So
Absalom               0223  A578843-C                          933 So
Jackson               0224  C45367A-8   Ni Po                  325 So
Tau-Tau               0225  B000649-D N As Na Ni               210 So
Manuel                0226  A445788-9   Ag                     323 So
Tudor                 0227  B627599-9   Ni                     324 So
Samarkand             0228  B461766-9   Ri                     214 So
Wunderland            0233  E868443-7   Ni                     833 Na
896-917               0234  E364000-0   Ba                     725 Na
899-491               0235  XAA6000-0   Ba Fl                  123 Na
Hawking               0236  B776553-9   Ag Ni                  723 Na
Tombs                 0301  C310730-A   Na                     202 So
Novy Mir              0302  A96A883-C N Ri Wa                  624 So
Galileo               0304  C100662-9   Na Ni Va               534 So
Samson                0310  B6687B6-7   Ag                     301 So
Ceres                 0312  A677878-A                          422 So
Kant                  0316  B445856-9                          624 So
Elnath                0317  B000766-D N As Na                  533 So
Sultana               0319  B544622-9   Ag Ni                  334 So
Haven                 0325  B658668-8   Ag Ni                  923 So
Spencer               0326  B260337-8   De Lo Ni               714 So
Enterprise            0327  A877663-8   Ag Ni                  722 So
Cascade               0328  B69A730-8   Wa                     434 So
Nelson                0331  A55A799-D   Wa                     923 So
Lammas                0332  B24478A-A   Ag                     922 So
Vixen                 0333  C474225-6   Lo Ni                  122 Na
Shuanyun              0334  CAC0514-C   De Ni                  615 Na
Accident              0340  D371356-6   Lo Ni                  824 Na
Saladin               0412  B353869-A   Po                     113 So
Hadrian               0415  C51465A-8   Ic Ni                  935 So
Nakamura              0418  C10049A-B   Ni Va                  602 So
New Pretoria          0424  B643866-9   Po                     524 So
Pele                  0426  A998534-8   Ag Ni                  410 So
Themis                0428  C9A5168-9   Fl Lo Ni               324 So
Storm                 0431  A897676-B   Ag Ni                  823 So
Gateway               0434  E357413-8   Ni                     510 Na
885-644               0436  E666000-0   Ba                     724 Na
Shah's World          0437  E616100-8   Ic Lo Ni               700 Na
Fortuna               0505  B896856-9                          725 So
Isis                  0508  B696653-A N Ag Ni                  511 So
Tellus                0511  A986976-B N Hi                     704 So
Ozymandias            0512  A7A387A-B   Fl                     703 So
Bismarck              0518  B679845-6                          524 So
Ekaterina             0519  A877789-9   Ag                     500 So
Terminus              0521  B410451-9   Ni                     203 So
Athens                0527  A684958-D   Hi                     824 So
Breslau               0531  A5646AC-8   Ag Ni                  501 So
Taurea                0532  A4569C9-D N Hi                     423 So
893-368               0537  XAB4000-0   Ba Fl                  900 Na
New Lyon              0606  B642998-B   Hi In Po               700 So
Prime                 0608  C8A5656-A   Fl Ni                  600 So
Sun Tzu               0611  A778569-A   Ag Ni                  913 So
Horizon               0615  A541221-A N Lo Ni Po               534 So
Felicity              0617  B5338AD-B   Na Po                  103 So
Plateau               0618  B9D789B-6   Fl                     624 So
Rhodes                0620  A000988-E   As Hi In Na            823 So
Fermat                0624  C5259A9-A   Hi In                  713 So
Provence              0625  A365534-D   Ag Ni                  934 So
Goliath               0631  BA959DC-6   Hi In                  723 So
905-404               0633  X6A0000-0   Ba De                  823 Na
Solitude              0635  B353200-C   Lo Ni Po               424 Na
Euxene                0703  A7979BD-A   Hi In                  823 So
Lyrane                0705  B000734-D N As Na                  503 So
Abaddon               0713  B6A459B-8   Fl Ni                  510 So
Churchill             0720  A655951-E   Hi                     422 So
Sydney                0721  A357789-C N Ag                     503 So
Outpost               0724  A10069C-E   Na Ni Va               804 So
Union                 0725  A424999-E N Hi In                  922 So
Pacifica              0728  A85A424-E   Ni Wa                  703 So
Hadley                0731  B574663-8   Ag Ni                  700 So
Pella                 0732  C300655-B   Na Ni Va               821 So
Harbinger             0735  B220646-C   De Na Ni Po            232 Na
Abydos                0736  D254545-7   Ag Ni                  213 Na
Shaitan               0739  E580131-2   De Lo Ni               700 Na
Farwold               0801  A445645-A   Ag Ni                  525 So
Maharani              0804  B64566A-7   Ag Ni                  535 So
Montrose              0809  A5548AA-8                          800 So
Anjou                 0818  B426985-D   Hi In                  402 So
Nueva Brasilia        0820  A884ACE-C   Hi                     200 So
Caledonia             0821  A797977-D   Hi In                  124 So
Dante                 0822  D8B9201-A   Fl Lo Ni               823 So
Tatiana               0826  B300587-B   Ni Va                  824 So
Daikoku               0829  A8589A7-C   Hi                     723 So
Izanagi               0830  A448973-B N Hi In                  804 So
Musashi               0833  B100558-C   Ni Va                  121 Na
Rhiannon              0835  B785655-A   Ag Ni Ri               522 Na
Babur                 0837  B55447A-B   Ni                     412 Na
Monterey              0907  A110987-E   Hi In Na               321 So
Twilight              0912  A8949A7-9   Hi In                  524 So
Albion                0921  B6569AA-9   Hi                     921 So
Europa                0923  A868AB8-E   Hi                     104 So
Hotei                 0927  A7B3435-D   Fl Ni                  802 So
Yawata                0929  C434879-9                          310 So
Tenjin                0930  A246431-E   Ni                     624 So
892-834               0934  X9B7000-0   Ba Fl                  320 Na
Carthage              0938  C110334-A   Lo Ni                  200 Na
889-056               0939  X411000-0   Ba Ic                  923 Na
Aldebaran             1002  A000752-E   As Na                  734 So
Rowan                 1004  A300589-A   Ni Va                  735 So
Home                  1009  A86699A-E N Hi                     320 So
Virgil                1014  A998855-9                          312 So
Gilead                1015  B433753-B   Na Po                  624 So
Nodens                1016  A210426-A   Ni                     823 So
Albion                1022  A547A7A-C N Hi In                  310 So
Covenant              1023  A696945-E   Hi In                  423 So
Pasquale              1024  A1007CD-C   Na Va                  524 So
Paradox               1036  B256734-9   Ag                     911 Na
923-438               1040  E559000-0   Ba                     910 Na
Marduk                1101  B3519BA-C N Hi Po                  804 So
Bogatyr               1104  A573875-D                          520 So
Pronea                1105  A211656-A   Ic Na Ni               912 So
Romulus               1110  A997500-B   Ag Ni                  523 So
Cahokia               1112  B454789-A   Ag                     222 So
Camelot               1115  A766546-A   Ag Ni                  124 So
Qadesh                1117  B889544-8   Ni                     600 So
Bonita                1118  C757765-3   Ag                     304 So
Tharsis               1119  B425579-C N Ni                     622 So
Pax                   1120  B100676-C   Na Ni Va               810 So
Newmark               1122  AA6A99B-E   Hi Wa                  100 So
Lagrange              1123  B798879-7                          600 So
Ransom                1125  A5507B8-9   De Po                  224 So
Yamato                1128  A878A9C-E N Hi In                  124 So
Serendip              1131  A7586A9-8   Ag Ni                  810 So
Cheyenne              1135  B765644-A   Ag Ni Ri               412 Na
Nix                   1136  C100569-C   Ni Va                  725 Na
Beowulf               1138  D436674-8   Ni                     734 Na
Gwydion               1139  B69778A-A   Ag                     424 Na
Bleak                 1140  C551331-6   Lo Ni Po               723 Na
Kronos                1202  C400333-8   Lo Ni Va               700 So
Atlantis              1204  A85A974-C   Hi Wa                  620 So
Shulaakish            1205  B566898-9   Ri                     500 So
715-306               1207  E8A5000-0   Ba Fl                  424 So
Thalna                1208  B501374-C   Ic Lo Ni Va            233 So
Marava                1210  A787999-E   Hi                     123 So
Ares                  1211  A450983-C   De Hi Po               303 So
Bitter                1212  A324459-E N Ni                     624 So
Daedalus              1213  A759788-D                          424 So
New Sylea             1216  C988686-5   Ag Ni Ri               525 So
Matuya                1217  B210210-9   Lo Ni                  724 So
Bayern                1220  A576836-7                          624 So
Veracruz              1221  A648955-C   Hi In                  602 So
Heimdall              1223  A886A77-E   Hi                     222 So
Wells                 1224  A746784-8   Ag                     720 So
Kensho                1228  C514350-9   Ic Lo Ni               303 So
Kingston              1230  C7A5133-9   Fl Lo Ni               824 So
Laplace               1231  D334320-8   Lo Ni                  513 So
Malory                1236  C691110-8   Lo Ni                  300 Na
Voltaire              1237  A361578-E   Ni                     600 Na
Napoli                1306  A666876-C   Ri                     124 So
Athos                 1310  C6466BD-3   Ag Ni                  834 So
Perdition             1312  A310310-D   Lo Ni                  711 So
Ghazi                 1313  B543225-9   Lo Ni Po               302 So
Plutarch              1314  D100256-A   Lo Ni Va               222 So
Caliburn              1316  B442422-9   Ni Po                  302 So
Salvador              1320  A2219DF-E   Hi In Na Po            100 So
Hanover               1322  B656754-9 N Ag                     521 So
Garibaldi             1325  BA99688-7   Ni                     802 So
Terra Nova            1326  A758AB7-C   Hi                     234 So
Chasm                 1329  CAA559C-A   Fl Ni                  422 So
Teilhard              1330  C432356-E   Lo Ni Po               514 So
Invictus              1331  B767889-7   Ri                     924 So
Stone                 1337  C200566-9   Ni Va                  624 Na
Masada                1338  A78768C-A   Ag Ni Ri               625 Na
Zion                  1404  A7769A8-A   Hi In                  412 So
Bran                  1405  B865858-C   Ri                     733 So
Olympus               1406  A8D5755-E N Fl                     724 So
Megiddo               1414  B101656-C   Ic Na Ni Va            302 So
Sapphire              1415  A86A633-C N Ni Wa                  624 So
Castile               1419  A6545A9-8   Ag Ni                  324 So
Bastion               1420  A00088D-E   As Na                  711 So
Thule                 1424  A52499C-A   Hi In                  622 So
Crossroads            1426  A8C4301-E N Fl Lo Ni               524 So
Diamond               1428  B628775-8                          321 So
920-226               1435  E586000-0   Ba                     123 Na
Myrddin               1437  C442226-7   Lo Ni Po               600 Na
Cain                  1438  D64A5A6-9   Ni Wa                  902 Na
Selene                1502  A200A89-E N Hi In Na Va            112 So
Poe                   1504  C100257-B   Lo Ni Va               224 So
Apotheosis            1506  A5258DC-B                          510 So
Arda                  1509  X7868AE-2                        R 514 So
Stavros               1512  B533444-C   Ni Po                  324 So
Timur                 1513  D571520-3   Ni                     423 So
Amaranth              1518  C465375-9   Lo Ni                  724 So
Tide                  1522  X65A520-3   Ni Wa                R 902 So
Serai                 1525  B4107BA-B   Na                     622 So
Landfall              1527  A896ACB-E   Hi In                  210 So
Bell                  1528  A428551-D   Ni                     621 So
Lakota                1529  B625630-9   Ni                     434 So
Uriel                 1534  C110242-A   Lo Ni                  623 Na
917-244               1537  X500000-0   Ba Va                  425 Na
Woden                 1539  AA76548-9   Ag Ni                  900 Na
Kupala                1540  C765332-5   Lo Ni                  322 Na
Albadawi              1603  A686885-A   Ri                     934 So
Trimurti              1604  A67798C-D   Hi In                  623 So
Jabru                 1605  B300658-D   Na Ni Va               312 So
Shamash               1611  B9A2667-9   Fl Ni                  103 So
Tintanon              1613  B331233-B   Lo Ni Po               223 So
Razana                1614  B856ACC-C   Hi                     202 So
Alamut                1620  B410587-D N Ni                     224 So
Sheol                 1622  B130557-A   De Ni Po               123 So
Tristan               1623  B772741-9                          823 So
Iskander              1624  A684535-9   Ag Ni                  810 So
Xanthus               1627  B535436-9   Ni                     100 So
Desolation            1629  A6A0620-9   De Ni                  920 So
Kinnison              1636  B411652-B   Ic Na Ni               725 Na
Arcadia               1702  A56678B-B   Ag Ri                  204 So
Dar al-Islam          1703  B979A87-B   Hi In                  123 So
Veldt                 1708  X46397B-3   Hi                   R 835 So
Pugu                  1709  A300768-B   Na Va                  624 So
Inverness             1710  B342566-A   Ni Po                  322 So
Sparta                1711  A2306AC-A N De Na Ni Po            203 So
Verda                 1712  B300622-9   Na Ni Va               834 So
Iolanthe              1722  E478575-5   Ag Ni                  600 So
Indra                 1725  B225643-B   Ni                     111 So
Deseret               1727  B574A7B-A   Hi In                  112 So
Columbia              1728  B446677-B   Ag Ni                  635 So
Telluride             1730  A232A99-E N Hi Na Po               234 So
Arizona               1731  E460652-3   De Ni Ri               224 So
Clarke                1735  C99A636-7   Ni Wa                  100 Na
Merope                1739  E110102-9   Lo Ni                  523 Na
Lisbon                1740  C576444-8   Ni                     300 Na
Altai                 1802  A552876-8   Po                     921 So
Firebird              1804  C575775-7   Ag                     425 So
Brisbane              1806  A8A4400-D   Fl Ni                  223 So
Gizeh                 1810  C553786-5   Po                     204 So
Concord               1818  B5637AA-8                          624 So
Bastet                1819  A330787-A   De Na Po               624 So
Rajastan              1824  C756769-8   Ag                     313 So
Franklin              1829  A8899BB-A   Hi                     610 So
New Nairobi           1830  A3307BC-A   De Na Po               723 So
890-218               1833  X100000-0   Ba Va                  100 Na
Nantucket             1835  C97A210-D   Lo Ni Wa               803 Na
Destiny               1837  D878202-5   Lo Ni                  824 Na
954-490               1839  X8C0000-0   Ba De                  923 Na
Batavia               1902  A9A389B-C N Fl                     924 So
Benedict              1909  A697888-A                          324 So
Malabar               1910  A635567-B   Ni                     803 So
Lorelei               1917  A779457-D   Ni                     924 So
Alilat                1918  B669553-D   Ni                     514 So
Hardship              1919  C5A5312-A   Fl Lo Ni               523 So
Chandra               1924  A310443-E   Ni                     434 So
Pandora               1927  A645ABA-E N Hi In                  200 So
Fraser                1929  B642510-B   Ni Po                  314 So
Kalahari              1935  A460654-B   De Ni Ri               223 Na
918-323               1936  X222000-0   Ba Po                  824 Na
921-997               1937  X8A7000-0   Ba Fl                  810 Na
Damnation             1938  E437435-9   Ni                     521 Na
Plato                 1940  D878220-6   Lo Ni                  324 Na
Muscovy               2002  B876845-A                          124 So
Tesla                 2004  A474A9A-E   Hi In                  204 So
Huaxia                2007  A7789AC-D   Hi In                  325 So
Turing                2010  A34569B-B   Ag Ni                  602 So
Medina                2018  B897887-A N                        724 So
Amida                 2019  C330769-8   De Na Po               934 So
Tagore                2020  A86887A-B   Ri                     224 So
Tormance              2022  AA68AAB-E   Hi                     100 So
Surya                 2023  B997878-B N                        623 So
Mu                    2024  C799498-5   Ni                     900 So
Denali                2027  B539675-8   Ni                     900 So
St. Thomas            2030  B657878-A                          814 So
Pytheas               2035  B5536A9-8   Ni Po                  434 Na
Dis                   2038  E200210-9   Lo Ni Va               411 Na
Baal                  2040  B45048C-9   De Ni Po               422 Na
Kashgar               2102  C534778-8                          110 So
Mictlan               2104  B200404-9   Ni Va                  303 So
Newcastle             2106  B5438BD-8   Po                     713 So
Wovoka                2107  A88A997-E N Hi Wa                  434 So
Memnon                2111  A657655-A   Ag Ni                  821 So
Justinian             2115  C66755A-8   Ag Ni                  902 So
Hector                2116  A200557-D   Ni Va                  314 So
Minos                 2117  X385654-2   Ag Ni Ri             R 223 So
Canyon                2125  BAF5677-7   Fl Ni                  202 So
Refuge                2127  A100A79-E   Hi In Na Va            223 So
Barbary               2128  C6B0622-9   De Ni                  423 So
Armstrong             2132  E110562-9   Ni                     700 So
Scatters              2133  B0008AD-D   As Na                  801 So
890-595               2135  X7C0000-0   Ba De                  300 Na
931-538               2140  E657000-0   Ba                     924 Na
Taliesin              2201  B756833-5                          302 So
Renault               2203  B678755-A   Ag                     133 So
Malta                 2205  A96A877-C N Ri Wa                  101 So
Sabah                 2206  B626755-A                          224 So
Newton                2208  B466945-9   Hi                     222 So
Lucifer               2209  C793432-7   Ni                     100 So
Echo                  2212  A00098A-E N As Hi In Na            533 So
Tecumseh              2213  A777720-C   Ag                     424 So
Tanaroa               2214  C76A563-7   Ni Wa                  902 So
Canaan                2216  A878684-C   Ag Ni                  835 So
Kepler                2218  B000759-B   As Na                  110 So
Rama                  2220  A893678-8   Ni                     323 So
Kashmir               2223  A644976-A   Hi In                  502 So
Faraway               2230  C33568A-9   Ni                     923 So
Wolfe                 2233  A363535-E N Ni                     724 So
911-241               2234  X8A4000-0   Ba Fl                  512 Na
Koshchei              2235  C523212-9   Lo Ni Po               502 Na
Masaya                2239  CAD9356-9   Fl Lo Ni               300 Na
Nzame                 2240  E896233-7   Lo Ni                  104 Na
Temujin               2302  BAB5587-C   Fl Ni                  814 So
Wilkes                2303  D100656-A   Na Ni Va               400 So
Kalmar                2307  A775622-B   Ag Ni                  113 So
Deirdre               2312  X897254-3   Lo Ni                R 101 So
Brilliant             2313  B529999-B   Hi In                  620 So
Anansi                2315  A989451-E   Ni                     324 So
Arjuna                2320  A514652-A   Ic Ni                  504 So
Bharat                2324  A564A9C-E N Hi                     124 So
Touchdown             2339  C8A0301-9   De Lo Ni               723 Na
Ganymede              2340  C410355-B   Lo Ni                  202 Na
Princeton             2403  D412264-7   Ic Lo Ni               122 So
Hermes                2405  B7989BB-9   Hi In                  224 So
Enoch                 2409  B8669B8-A N Hi                     220 So
Paravel               2414  E410157-9   Lo Ni                  910 So
Cybele                2416  A9D899A-A   Fl Hi                  303 So
Guinee                2417  C86A8DF-8   Wa                     300 So
Ariadne               2428  C697667-8   Ag Ni                  201 So
Iona                  2429  A464420-9   Ni                     323 So
Tyre                  2431  A588452-E N Ni                     622 So
Drab                  2432  B430456-B   De Ni Po               602 So
Tintagel              2438  C410201-C   Lo Ni                  913 Na
Sebastos              2502  A566886-B   Ri                     222 So
Locke                 2503  C30077B-A   Na Va                  401 So
Antiquity             2505  A5A2354-E   Fl Lo Ni               300 So
Phaedra               2506  A310855-A   Na                     234 So
Jacaranda             2508  B400678-B   Na Ni Va               924 So
Anderson              2511  A465557-E   Ag Ni                  722 So
Avesta                2512  A62569B-B   Ni                     723 So
Lawrence              2513  B300887-C   Na Va                  703 So
Seraph                2515  C494769-6   Ag                     123 So
Maidan                2517  D200525-9   Ni Va                  124 So
New Hawaii            2518  A67A99A-E   Hi In Wa               514 So
Carnelian             2522  C511438-A   Ic Ni                  134 So
Laomedon              2523  C220387-B   De Lo Ni Po            424 So
Wormwood              2524  C210645-8   Na Ni                  934 So
Jericho               2532  C400465-B   Ni Va                  803 So
936-125               2536  X200000-0   Ba Va                  224 Na
Yama                  2538  C324322-A   Lo Ni                  222 Na
Aztlan                2601  B9898CC-6                          425 So
Helicon               2606  C869773-5   Ri                     113 So
The Realm             2608  A665ADB-C   Hi                     324 So
Ulysses               2613  A75A754-B N Wa                     624 So
Rand                  2614  B322720-8   Na Po                  902 So
Ratri                 2619  C410689-9   Na Ni                  224 So
New Vantage           2620  C9DA477-9   Fl Ni Wa               912 So
Teela                 2621  A444457-C   Ni                     120 So
Coventry              2624  A596687-8   Ag Ni                  424 So
Devaki                2625  A78A7A5-D   Wa                     124 So
Ahriman               2635  B623200-C   Lo Ni Po               834 Na
899-034               2636  X632000-0   Ba Po                  524 Na
Providence            2637  B474424-7   Ni                     925 Na
Amber                 2702  A64699A-E N Hi In                  733 So
Zarathustra           2703  C100858-C   Na Va                  224 So
Arrian                2704  B8B3567-9   Fl Ni                  420 So
Catalunya             2707  B44499C-8   Hi In                  624 So
Aeolus                2708  B766577-6   Ag Ni                  423 So
Botany Bay            2709  B66A944-A N Hi Wa                  220 So
Attica                2717  C325899-9                          525 So
Bazaar                2720  AAB9333-E   Fl Lo Ni               523 So
Saranaki              2722  A41088B-A N Na                     224 So
St. Elias             2726  E220120-9   De Lo Ni Po            610 So
Basilisk              2728  C6737B6-4                          610 So
Outfield              2732  B330323-D   De Lo Ni Po            820 Na
Last Chance           2735  E454253-5   Lo Ni                  923 Na
Bethel                2739  C200200-8   Lo Ni Va               302 Na
Jamshyd               2802  C545566-6   Ag Ni                  523 So
Lynne                 2804  A230556-D   De Ni Po               722 So
Freehold              2806  A654200-B   Lo Ni                  702 So
Tanil                 2813  D696342-6   Lo Ni                  724 So
Buku                  2816  C447688-4   Ag Ni                  900 So
Tyrone                2823  C514543-9   Ic Ni                  734 So
867-853               2824  E410000-0   Ba                     720 So
Gryphon               2825  A984579-B   Ag Ni                  724 So
Manticore             2827  B668513-A   Ag Ni                  624 So
Lilith                2829  E8A6200-8   Fl Lo Ni               225 So
Cyrano                2830  B100201-C N Lo Ni Va               102 So
Libertad              2835  C6598DF-6                          514 Na
Aimend                2836  B685400-A   Ni                     423 Na
Borges                2904  A675922-E   Hi In                  125 So
Paulette              2905  C506385-8   Ic Lo Ni Va            622 So
Alphard               2906  B7A2320-B   Fl Lo Ni               724 So
Kodiak                2907  C876565-5   Ag Ni                  124 So
Ekera                 2912  A400477-B N Ni Va                  120 So
King                  2913  B6B5300-D   Fl Lo Ni               424 So
Hestia                2914  B553553-7   Ni Po                  900 So
Sphinx                2924  B53557B-C   Ni                     824 So
Natal                 2928  D639154-9   Lo Ni                  424 So
Meade                 2932  A200622-B   Na Ni Va               334 Na
941-240               2940  X200000-0   Ba Va                  613 Na
Nesia                 3005  A98A665-9   Ni Ri Wa               623 So
Khemet                3008  CA59984-9   Hi                     723 So
New Salem             3010  B685888-8   Ri                     534 So
Freisen               3019  C687687-4   Ag Ni Ri               912 So
Leviathan             3022  B599525-9   Ni                     123 So
Camlann               3023  B465245-B   Lo Ni                  124 So
Saarinen              3024  C97A565-8   Ni Wa                  422 So
928-749               3025  E210000-0   Ba                     124 So
928-826               3026  E424000-0   Ba                     410 So
Exile                 3028  D88A200-9   Lo Ni Wa               823 So
Xinjiang              3030  B461497-8   Ni                     103 So
Verge                 3034  B55669B-A   Ag Ni                  225 Na
965-736               3036  E57A000-0   Ba Wa                  603 Na
Argos                 3104  A000563-E N As Ni                  914 So
Xanadu                3106  A886444-A   Ni                     922 So
Firdausi              3107  A778ABF-C   Hi In                  224 So
Danaus                3113  D566688-6   Ag Ni Ri               634 So
Oceanus               3115  AA7A411-E   Ni Wa                  900 So
Coburg                3116  C544766-5   Ag                     423 So
Lysander              3118  A000977-D N As Hi In Na            625 So
831-221               3124  E534000-0   Ba                     402 So
Rashnu                3125  C546251-8   Lo Ni                  621 So
Starkad               3126  C898646-4   Ag Ni                  733 So
Theodosius            3131  B7B2321-C   Fl Lo Ni               421 So
944-270               3135  E476000-0   Ba                     913 Na
Etain                 3202  B776777-9   Ag                     522 So
New Beijing           3203  C524632-8   Ni                     110 So
Styx                  3205  B5A0745-9   De                     823 So
Lamia                 3206  C200589-9   Ni Va                  622 So
Freya                 3209  B765AAA-9   Hi                     134 So
Cilicia               3215  C5846A7-5   Ag Ni                  222 So
Faust                 3216  A647410-D   Ni                     524 So
Elysium               3218  B755576-8   Ag Ni                  912 So
856-015               3228  X8C8000-0   Ba Fl                  514 So
Elis                  3233  C5597AE-4                          224 Na
Forward               3234  B524444-C   Ni                     623 Na
--part1_e4.25704b2c.29dcb669_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
Message-ID: <164.b8cd038.29dcb7e0@aol.com>

Oh, bloody hell.

Ignore that, everyone. Was meant for private email.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:33:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:33:44 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
Message-ID: <200204032032.DHB01917@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

JFZeigler@aol.com  says
>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur 
>historian, freelance writer, occasional scribbler of bad 
>poetry

At least you're not a stand-up philosopher.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
Message-ID: <126.e80c5ee.29dcc2a2@aol.com>

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In a message dated 03/04/02 00:50:39 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


> > _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
> > mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
> > reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
> > but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
> > 
> > [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.
> 
> Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are
> interfertile.
> 

Depends on what you mean by "interfertile" some species (including ones with 
differing numbers of chromosomes) can interbreed but not produce fertile 
young.

The horse family is the classic example of this (horse (64 chromosomes) + 
donkey (62 chromosomes) = mule (63 chromosomes)), although interbreeding of 
captive big cats is not uncommon. Interestingly I'm not aware of any great 
ape interbreeding.

If you mean interbreed and produce fertile young there's a question over 
whether most of the subspecies of human could. Genetic drift after three 
hundred thousand years or so of isolation is likely to have had some 
interesting consequences. Genetic engineering of seperated groups by assorted 
Ancients is unlikely to have helped.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:50:39 GMT Daylight Time, webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been<BR>
&gt; mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the<BR>
&gt; reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,<BR>
&gt; but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.<BR>
<BR>
Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are<BR>
interfertile.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Depends on what you mean by "interfertile" some species (including ones with differing numbers of chromosomes) can interbreed but not produce fertile young.<BR>
<BR>
The horse family is the classic example of this (horse (64 chromosomes) + donkey (62 chromosomes) = mule (63 chromosomes)), although interbreeding of captive big cats is not uncommon. Interestingly I'm not aware of any great ape interbreeding.<BR>
<BR>
If you mean interbreed and produce fertile young there's a question over whether most of the subspecies of human could. Genetic drift after three hundred thousand years or so of isolation is likely to have had some interesting consequences. Genetic engineering of seperated groups by assorted Ancients is unlikely to have helped.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_126.e80c5ee.29dcc2a2_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <3CAB69B2.95EE7DA@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>
> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
> 2 worlds
>
  >>
  .....YES!!!FINALLY!!!.....

[I think] John-Martin wrote:
>have you ever seen my semi-regular Binges rant?

Actually, I think I missed it. 

As a representative of a low pop world, I want to hear 
more about this.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <200204032049.DHB04097@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

><snippage>
>> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
>> 2 worlds
>>

I always thought that these were either scientific 
establishments - OR -

Laning's Retirement Palace
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:00:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 13:00:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Questions, questions
Message-ID: <172.62e952a.29dcc73c@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 19:53:37 GMT Daylight Time, 
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:


> > 1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to 
> > remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible
> 
> Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's 
> ridiculous as well. Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens, 
> H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.

Are you sure you mean H. hablis? Evolved circa 2.2 myr ago died out probably 
around 1.5 - 1.6 myr ago AFAIK.

The candidates as far as I see it are H. heidelbergensis, H. neatherthalensis 
or H. erectus. Neanderthals and erectus are both probably poor choices which 
leaves us with H. heidelbergensis, which is logical since heidelbergensis 
used to be known as archaic homo sapiens. 

> 
> A more logical explanation would be that Gramps took H. hablis, geneered 
> the species into H. sap, and re-seeded Terra, as well as Zhodane and 
> Vland (and all the other planets) with the new species.
> 
> Would explain some of the more puzzling aspects of our evolution...
> 
This is almost certainly it since H. heidelbergensis is probably the direct 
ancestor of H. sapiens.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 19:53:37 GMT Daylight Time, johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; 1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to <BR>
&gt; remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible<BR>
<BR>
Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's <BR>
ridiculous as well. Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens, <BR>
H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Are you sure you mean H. hablis? Evolved circa 2.2 myr ago died out probably around 1.5 - 1.6 myr ago AFAIK.<BR>
<BR>
The candidates as far as I see it are H. heidelbergensis, H. neatherthalensis or H. erectus. Neanderthals and erectus are both probably poor choices which leaves us with H. heidelbergensis, which is logical since heidelbergensis used to be known as archaic homo sapiens. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
A more logical explanation would be that Gramps took H. hablis, geneered <BR>
the species into H. sap, and re-seeded Terra, as well as Zhodane and <BR>
Vland (and all the other planets) with the new species.<BR>
<BR>
Would explain some of the more puzzling aspects of our evolution...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
This is almost certainly it since H. heidelbergensis is probably the direct ancestor of H. sapiens.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_172.62e952a.29dcc73c_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 13:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
Message-ID: <175.62e4c55.29dcca53@aol.com>

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In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk 
writes:


> >Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
> >ridiculous as well.
> 
> No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H. 
> erectus_
> and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
> actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
> it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
> showing up as early as that.

H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say 
I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H. 
sapiens back that far. If by archaic H. sapiens you mean H. heidelbergensis 
then you're right.

> 
> But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
> tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In
> the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place
> _H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.

True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are 
descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even 
more arrogant than they already are.

> 
> >Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens,
> >H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.
> 
> _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
> mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
> reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
> but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
> 
> [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.
> 
> 
> Hans
> 

The Solomani Institute of Extraterrestrial Human Studies votes for H. 
heidelbergensis zhodotlas and H. heidelbergensis vlandensis :)

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's<BR>
&gt;ridiculous as well.<BR>
<BR>
No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H. erectus_<BR>
and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That<BR>
actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing<BR>
it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_<BR>
showing up as early as that.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H. sapiens back that far. If by archaic H. sapiens you mean H. heidelbergensis then you're right.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up<BR>
tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In<BR>
the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place<BR>
_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even more arrogant than they already are.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
&gt;Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens,<BR>
&gt;H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.<BR>
<BR>
_H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been<BR>
mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the<BR>
reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,<BR>
but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.<BR>
<BR>
[*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hans<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
The Solomani Institute of Extraterrestrial Human Studies votes for H. heidelbergensis zhodotlas and H. heidelbergensis vlandensis :)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_175.62e4c55.29dcca53_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr  3 13:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <20020402201432.444efd17.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEKEDJAA.tml@downport.com>

All of the news that's fit to print, of course. But ideas already on the
table are posted at http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=40

and yes, poly-tics needs to be woven through the whole organization. For
instance, not just anyone can join the TAS. You must roll to avoid the
blacklist... and who maintains this mysterious list?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

How much material are you aiming at? What kind?

I imagine TAS could be used as an alternative to the intrigues among the
noble families. After all, the idle rich are always a good source for
strife. Just look at the old-school soap operas (Dallas, Falcon Crest,
etc) out there...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Corridor PBEM, or What Happens When You Retire
Message-ID: <200204032215.DHD09409@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

If you're interested and already sent me an e-mail, please re-
confirm by sending me your character. If you are just 
interested, please send me your character.  Please use CT 
LBB, Book4, 5, Scouts, Merchant Prince, or Citizens.

The campaign begins at a beautiful retirement enclave, built 
by a previous band of adventurers who initially made their 
fortune during the Fifth Frontier War.  Various adventurers 
have been attracted to, and joined the enclave in their 
retirement.  The enclave has been a patron to other 
adventurers as well.

More on the enclave and its location in a moment...
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Universal TwistsTable
Message-ID: <20020403.143010.-258599.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

Rachel

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 02:37:18 +0800 "Rachel Kronick"
<rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net> writes:
> Hi all!
> 
> I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists 
> Table (UTT), where you roll and a result like "Antagonist turns out 
> to be Protagonist's long-lost relative" or "20 drunken goons ambush 
> the PC on the way home" or whatever come up.  we could make a 
> big UTT with a thousand or so entries so repeats are rare...
> 
> -- 

Sounds like a great idea, run with it...

I can't think of any at the moment, my brain needs a jump start. Perhaps
posting ideas will inspire others [including myself] to think up a few,
then you could develop the table from the plentiful results, after all,
it was your idea.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <3CABBC5E.30314.BCBF6D@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402205809.027d9ba0@pop.wizard.net>
 <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403173248.02493b60@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:37 AM 4/4/02 +0800, you wrote:
>Hi all!
>
>I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists
>Table (UTT), where you roll and a result like "Antagonist turns out
>to be Protagonist's long-lost relative" or "20 drunken goons ambush
>the PC on the way home" or whatever come up.  we could make a
>big UTT with a thousand or so entries so repeats are rare...
>
>-- Rachel

Good idea, and I applaud and admire it.

The really surprising surprise is more like what I had in mind.  Not "what 
is their true motivation, really?" but "You walk to the mailbox and hear a 
strange click as you open it.  Some sixth sense makes you jump to the 
side.  An explosion plumes out of the mouth of the mailbox, right through 
where you were just standing.  There are nasty-looking steel darts embedded 
very deeply in the tree on the opposite side of the street."  Something 
totally out of the blue.  And you can't use my exploding-mailbox random 
event because you've already written it so you know it _might_ happen.

The best conceptual approach I've devised so far is we help each other out 
by writing random events, posting them via the Internet to each other, and 
then we can each use someone else's random events and some dice or other 
random number generator.  No peeking allowed.

Alternatively, there was the suggested approach of "it's a lot like playing 
chess against yourself".  But only the most scrupulously intellectually 
honest person could really do that up right.  I'd be very tempted to let my 
munchkinness run wild, for instance.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <200204032049.DHB04097@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403174814.0255e1a0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon retorts:
> ><snippage>
> >> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
> >> 2 worlds
>
>I always thought that these were either scientific
>establishments - OR -
>
>Laning's Retirement Palace

Heh.  Nah.  It's nice to think that there might be nearly "unspoiled" 
worlds like that somewhere, but I wouldn't want to live on them.  For one 
thing, the TML would be pretty lacking in activity on a place like that.  I 
need more intellectual activities than can be provided by a population of 
less than 100 sophonts.  You could always posit that those ninety people 
are the ninety most brilliant and knowledgeable people who ever lived, I 
guess.  It's a retirement palace for the best and the brightest.  But then 
you'd have to explain why they let me retire there too!

Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major 
metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a 
twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to ride my 
bicycle around on for training and take different routes each day.  Fifteen 
miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest needs.  Really.  Don't 
forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] heaven and earth
Message-ID: <200204032300.DHF06393@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

does anyone know where I can find a list of known bugs?

also, I wouldn't mind porting this to Smalltalk.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Laning wrote:
Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major 
metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a 
twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to ride my 
bicycle around on for training and take different routes each day.  Fifteen 
miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest needs.  Really.  Don't 
forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.

--Laning



How about this Laning?
http://www.trinityyachts.com/seahawk.htm

The boat's also detailed in the current (April 2002) issue of Yachting.  Drop me
an e-mail if you want me to send you some scans ;)

Jesse
wyrwolff@yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:16:02 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB8CD5.530DEA4@premier.net>


"DeGraff, Jesse" wrote:
> 
> Laning wrote:
> Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major
> metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a
> twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to ride my
> bicycle around on for training and take different routes each day.  Fifteen
> miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest needs.  Really.  Don't
> forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.
> 
> --Laning
> 
> How about this Laning?
> http://www.trinityyachts.com/seahawk.htm
> 
> The boat's also detailed in the current (April 2002) issue of Yachting.  Drop me
> an e-mail if you want me to send you some scans ;)
> 
Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)

Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:

http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEKEDJAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <20020402201432.444efd17.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403181532.02492b50@pop.wizard.net>

>I imagine TAS could be used as an alternative to the intrigues among the
>noble families. After all, the idle rich are always a good source for
>strife. Just look at the old-school soap operas (Dallas, Falcon Crest,
>etc) out there...

True enough.  I live in the suburbs between Washington, D.C. and the 
fox-hunting Virginia countryside where there are dozens of billionaires 
with a B, and the big hunt/horse events are an important part of the social 
calendar for zillionaires from all over the world.  Every time there's a 
murder in Middleburg or something, it shows up as a made-for-TV movie two 
years later.  Like clockwork.  :->

'Dallas' & 'Falcon Crest' are old school soap operas?!  One of us is dating 
ourselves, 'cuz I see something like 'As The World Turns' as old school and 
'Dallas' as a recent fad.  And of course there were the old radio shows 
that were before my time; they actually were sponsored by soap 
companies.  It's all subjective, I guess.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:22:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:22:28 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
In-Reply-To: <3CAB8CD5.530DEA4@premier.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACELDCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

John Groth says
[Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:]

Nice.  But where is the triple laser turret?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:27:02 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" l
 ong)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

That's not a yacht, it's a pocket cruise ship ;)
Jesse


John Groth proclaimed:
Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)

Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:

http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:29:02 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACELDCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3CAB8FE7.32401A30@premier.net>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> John Groth says
> [Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:]
> 
> Nice.  But where is the triple laser turret?

Not mounted.  As _Britannia_ was designed for rapid conversion to a
hospital ship at need, the laws of war forbid mounting of offensive
weapons.

I am given to understand, however, that the 2 3-pdr. saluting guns are
point-defense capable.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] heaven and earth
In-Reply-To: <200204032300.DHF06393@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D0D965.34814%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/3/02 3:00 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> does anyone know where I can find a list of known bugs?
> 
> also, I wouldn't mind porting this to Smalltalk.

Just a word of warning.  I got the source for a possible mac port.  It
written in VB.  There's on source file that's over a meg.  AAARRRGG.

I thought it would be an easy post to the mac using RealBasic.  Boy was I
wrong.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FA@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net>

Jesse DeGraff says:

>How about this Laning?
>http://www.trinityyachts.com/seahawk.htm
>
>The boat's also detailed in the current (April 2002) issue of 
>Yachting.  Drop me
>an e-mail if you want me to send you some scans ;)

Hmm, that's pretty nice.  :->

But it doesn't seem to have a suitable helicopter.  And I'd prefer to have 
a spot more conducive to sunning while cruising slowly or at anchor.  With 
cocktails.  And where's the swimming pool?  Some of the yachts found at the 
link you posted a few weeks back had swimming pools.

Remember, I'm a man of a modest needs, but you can't honestly expect me to 
want for all those basic necessities can you?  :->

I'd pull up one or two yachts from that other site, but the computer where 
my bookmarks live is currently a little under the weather.

I'd really like the yacht to be a sailboat but that plays hell with trying 
to use the helicopter, or even where to keep the car.

--Laning
Sheez, that Trinity yacht has a 38-footer listed as one of its tenders.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FC@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403191641.00a990b0@pop.wizard.net>

>John Groth proclaimed:
>Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)
>
>Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:
>
>http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

Yes, that might be suitable.  A bit old though, don't you think?  And it 
probably needs some pretty extensive remodelling for the helopad and hangar.

Remember, I'm a man of modest needs.

--Laning

PS  Both of those yachts were good fodder for my budding Traveller 
campaign.  I thank you.  I think my wife and I will have fun together 
looking at the online tour of HM Britannia.  :->

I wonder...should the truly luxurious yacht owner carry his own ocean-going 
yacht in the hold of his star yacht?  Captain Nemo probably would.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/3/02 4:14 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Hmm, that's pretty nice.  :->
> 
> But it doesn't seem to have a suitable helicopter.  And I'd prefer to have
> a spot more conducive to sunning while cruising slowly or at anchor.  With
> cocktails.  And where's the swimming pool?  Some of the yachts found at the
> link you posted a few weeks back had swimming pools.
> 
> Remember, I'm a man of a modest needs, but you can't honestly expect me to
> want for all those basic necessities can you?  :->


Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?

http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html

Now that's what I am talking about.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] using heaven and earth
Message-ID: <200204040040.DHJ01676@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod, how hard was it to take the output from h&e (html) and 
turn it into what you have for the spinwardmarches site?

I am thinking of doing the same thing for Corridor.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Suddenly, Blackmoore Heavy Industries (builders of the Acipiter series ships and
others) branches off to wet-ship design.  Pretty impressive when you consider
they're asteroid based ;)
Jesse


Kindest Sophont Laning,
Regarding your RFP for a "modest", helicopter (how quaint!) equipped motoryacht,
are you looking for something in an expedition style yacht
[http://www.yachtworld.com/expeditionyachts/expeditionyachts_3.html], something
classical [http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/], or something a little more
aggressive looking? [http://www.newzealandyachts.com/].

Best Regards,
David Phoenecius
Blackmoore Heavy Industries


-----Original Message-----
From: laning [mailto:laning@wizard.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 4:26 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)



>John Groth proclaimed:
>Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)
>
>Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:
>
>http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

Yes, that might be suitable.  A bit old though, don't you think?  And it 
probably needs some pretty extensive remodelling for the helopad and hangar.

Remember, I'm a man of modest needs.

--Laning

PS  Both of those yachts were good fodder for my budding Traveller 
campaign.  I thank you.  I think my wife and I will have fun together 
looking at the online tour of HM Britannia.  :->

I wonder...should the truly luxurious yacht owner carry his own ocean-going 
yacht in the hold of his star yacht?  Captain Nemo probably would.

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:02:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:02:37 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <20020403.170340.-179719.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

> Laning wrote:
> Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major 
> metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a 
> twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to
> ride my bicycle around on for training and take different routes each
> day.  Fifteen miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest
> needs.  Really. Don't forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.
> 
> --Laning

Why not just take Catalina Island off the Southern California's Long
Beach coast.
Live in Wriggly's mansion, and enslave Avalon harbor. 
They have a small harbor, a private small plane airstrip, a secluded
school for Mercenary training, room for a submarine base, accessible by
sea plane, helicopter, yacht, or small plane, and if you like the
outdoors, a small herd of Bison.

Don't worry about the rattlesnakes, they'll at least warn you before they
strike.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
Message-ID: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission 
times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had 
holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might 
be traded on many worlds.

Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was 
traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on 
that world traded electronically.

You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
to try and offset this sort of risk?

Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017882903.8505.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission 
> times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had 
> holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might 
> be traded on many worlds.
> 
> Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was 
> traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on 
> that world traded electronically.
> 
> You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
> stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
> get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
> to try and offset this sort of risk?

Aside from a broker on Regina who handles the investment for you?  No.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:16:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:16:35 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEKKDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Sort of gives you a reminder of how stock brokers got so powerful. A century
ago you REALLY had to trust your brokerage to do what was in your best
interest.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission
times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had
holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might
be traded on many worlds.

Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was
traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on
that world traded electronically.

You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the
stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to
get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments
to try and offset this sort of risk?

Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
Message-ID: <20020403.173322.-179719.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:08:21 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
> stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
> get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
> to try and offset this sort of risk?
> 
> Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?
>

One would assume that your portfolio in the 57th century would have a lot
more safeguards than todays economic choices and options. Todays brokers
can key in a buy or sell if above or below a certain point. The future
would be so electronic, computerization so A.I. that your entire
portfolio could change, grow, etc, while you're out jumping around the
galaxy. But because of your pre-jump commands to your home computer,
you'd have no worry's at all, in fact if programmed right you'd be making
Credits all the time.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEPKGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

hmmm, 
stock futures? invest in as basket of 
stocks.  put a proportion of your stock 
in mega corps __ if they crash the 
imperium has probably crashed so you 
really don't need to worry ... too much :)

jml
_____________
my other computer runs BSD
and another, Mac OS 9, and 
another NT, and .....
you get the idea

jml
jmlotzn1@pacbell.net
_________________





I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission 
times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had 
holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might 
be traded on many worlds.

Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was 
traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on 
that world traded electronically.

You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
to try and offset this sort of risk?

Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] book two ship building
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEPNGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I've been thinking again,  one potentialy cool thing
to contemplate is that each race can have different types
of standard ship elements.  Aslan optimize for m drive 
speed.  Vagyar ships are optimized as m3 j2 pp 3 ships for 
every default hull, Zho ships have smaller j drives but 
the m drives are bigger and so on, unless it is design to 
run without a PSI aboard in which case both drives are 
too big. Or for instance the Ante Spinward yards has a 
standard hull with a different drive, hull ratio.

much coolness with too much violence the rules.

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:58:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:58:07 2002
Subject: [TML] book two ship building ( minor correction thingee )
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEPNGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEPNGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

errr that should be

much coolness without too much violence the rules.
                  ^^^
________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] book two ship building ( minor correction thingee )
Message-ID: <200204040203.DHL05589@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

John-Martin says
>
>errr that should be
>
>much coolness without too much violence the rules.
>                  ^^^

I don't know. It seems nearly impossible to "really" damage a 
ship in High Guard.  If you compare the amount of damage that 
can be done with, say four triple beam turrets in LBB 2, and 
try that same amount of weaponry in HG, at least I have a 
chance of getting critical hits in LBB 2.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net> <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020404122756.A18722@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?

Come on now, *any* boat can submerge :)

> http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html

... though I must admit the ability to come back up again does have
some appeal.  Interestingly enough, this sub is almost exactly 100
dtons.  Only $78 million, too.  That would be what, 20 MCrImp?  Not
far off the cost of a 100-dton starship :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net> <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020404122756.A18722@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CABBC6C.54730FB0@premier.net>


Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Tod Glenn wrote:
> > Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?
> 
> Come on now, *any* boat can submerge :)
> 
> > http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html
> 
> ... though I must admit the ability to come back up again does have
> some appeal.

To paraphrase the advice a med tech game me several years ago:

Water on the outside, air on the inside.  Any deviation is bad.*

*The actual advice was "The air goes in and out, the blood goes 'round
and 'round.  Any deviation is bad."

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
In-Reply-To: <164.b8cd038.29dcb7e0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CAC67AA.23713.6F6A07@localhost>

On 3 Apr 2002, at 14:54, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:

> Oh, bloody hell.
> 
> Ignore that, everyone. Was meant for private email.

This is not the sector you're looking for, move along.

(Well someone had to say it)

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
Message-ID: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>

Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered 
seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat 
that had not a conventional sail, but basically an 
airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing 
around trying to find information and pictures about 
this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more 
info about this boat or have any links?

Jesse


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Information, please:  Kians
Message-ID: <OFC3572B3F.B36E56CE-ONCA256B91.0013E1A4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Larsen asked:
>Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians

Have a look in my Library Data under "K" - "Kian". There's a whole entry 
on them (sans picture, sorry!), including these CT stats:

Number  Animal Type  Weight  Hits   Armour  Wounds and Weapons 
10-60   Grazer       400 kg  25/10  jack    10 Hooves A9 F4 S3 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Beowulf Down update - Letter of Marque!
Message-ID: <OF41324AB5.DC2907F0-ONCA256B91.0014375C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Got my 'Net access back last night, and to celebrate I uploaded a blank 
Letter of Marque, plus a few filled-in LoM's for the PC's in my campaign.

(I also forgot to mention I added a few new taglines. Oh yeah, and a j-6 
map to the Tavonni RICE Paper. I'll really have to update my "Just 
Detected" page!  ;-).

For the blank one, either go in through "Just Detected", or via Tavonni 
Repair Bays ==> Other Assorted Notes ==> Letter of Marque.

To find the filled-in LoM's, again go thru "Just Detected", or via Tavonni 
Specialities ==> Adifux Inc LIC ==> then the various Letters of Marque.

BTW, did anyone have any comments on my _Robots_ rules fixes?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:59:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:59:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Electronic Copy of MT Ruleset?
Message-ID: <OFA21335D5.ACFFA0F8-ONCA256B91.00154011@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

I asked this a couple of months ago, but got no reply:

        A year or more ago, someone on the TML offered us the MT rules in 
electronic form.

        Marc apparently allows the person to release a limited number of 
copies per year (provided the recipient can show proof-of-purchase).

        Can anyone tell me:
                (a) who the person is;
                (b) how I can get in contact with them; and
                (c) if any copies are available *this* year?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <OF0CB4ECE7.A245C0B1-ONCA256B91.00169DC3@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>> Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
>> opposed to deuterium or tritium)?
>
>No, P-P probably would be phosphorus.  I should have written p-p.

Um, maybe H-H, hydrogen to hydrogen (as opposed to D-D deuterium-to-D, or 
T-T tritium-to T)?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <200204040421.UAA31186@ping.iii.com>

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au writes:

>Dear Folks -
>
>>> Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
>>> opposed to deuterium or tritium)?
>>
>>No, P-P probably would be phosphorus.  I should have written p-p.
>
>Um, maybe H-H, hydrogen to hydrogen (as opposed to D-D deuterium-to-D, or 
>T-T tritium-to T)?

Nope.  H is insufficiently clear, since deuterium and tritium _are_ 
hydrogen.  p for proton.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402080234.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20403.202553.7U7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 03:43 AM 4/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
>>>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...
>>
>>Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug, 
>>your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead 
>>GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is 
>>despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode 
>>of eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.
>>
>>--Laning, Canoneer of God
>
> I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
>
> (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
>
> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

"Eppur, si mouve..." is the original, I believe? 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
References: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <3CABDBEE.7B9724CC@pobox.com>

Check out http://www.windrocket.com/index.html.

WKH

JDEGRAFF@sbcglobal.net wrote:

> Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered
> seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat
> that had not a conventional sail, but basically an
> airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing
> around trying to find information and pictures about
> this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more
> info about this boat or have any links?
>
> Jesse
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
In-Reply-To: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
References: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <dklnauohlk3ounbqd2b03igvg33l5810e9@4ax.com>

On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:38:37 -0500, JDEGRAFF@sbcglobal.net wrote:

>Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered=20
>seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat=20
>that had not a conventional sail, but basically an=20
>airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing=20
>around trying to find information and pictures about=20
>this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more=20
>info about this boat or have any links?

I had seen the reference as well.  The key Google term turns out to be
"wingsail" and a couple standard publicity shots can be found at
http://www.lusas.com/images/yacht.gif,
http://www.formsys.com/Maxsurf/MSLaunchingsPage/WalkerWingsailPic1.gif
or http://www.boatshow.com/IMAGES/SAILBOATS/waz001aT4.jpg.  Sorry, but
both of the images are similar and small, but should be enough to
confirm what you remember.

The depicted boat is the Zephyr 43.  Unfortunately, it appears that
Walker Wingsail is no longer in business.

A much smaller alternative, but definitely interesting in appearance
is at
http://www.marinersguide.com/dockswap/national/messages/115.html,
though as one correspondent had it, there was a buoyancy problem.
When the 200 lbs pilot carried his child on his lap, the vessel tended
to submarine.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <20020403123426.04d59074.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20403.203116.4A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> laning wrote:
>> By the way, Jens, have you read Hal Clement's 'Mission of Gravity'?
>> A great example of intelligent alien life forms evolving on a world
>> extremely different from Terra.  A just plain extreme world, in
>> fact.  Clement opens the hood and lets us peer into a lot of the
>> alien building he does.  The book's a classic, in fact.

> Nope, I haven't. And I doubt that the library has that book in stock.
> I've placed it on the list of books to look for now, though.

You may want to see if you can get copies of "The Essential Hal
Clement" Volumes I, II and III. Volume III has Mission of Gravity, the
sequel "Star Light", and several short stories that are related.

The set has a lot of strange world or aliens that are good for
springing on folks not familiar with SF from that era.

And they aren't bad reading as long as you realized that the worlds are
as much "characters" as the sophonts.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:29:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:29:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20403.204017.2N3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at
> doorlocks etc...
>
> How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior is
> exposed to Vacuum?
>
> Not many...
>
> Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by
> being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a recording
> being played over radio)
>
> I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices
> relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad ID
> number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the
> card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you
> have access to your account.

Actually, even *now* there exist systems that use an access card that
you merely have to have on your person, not even in sight.

Basicly, the access mechanism sends a bunch of different frequency
radio signals out and the card resonates at a set of them that
consitutute the access code. Purely passive, no power required in the
card. 

If this was common, you'd have a "switch" to disable the resonance, so
folks couldn't read your codes as you walked by (then again, if you've
got more than one card, they won't know which frequencies go with which
card :-)

This would be good for stuff that needs to work while you are suited. 

Add simple PIN codes to deal with stolen cards and you are doing pretty
good. 

And at the higher frequencies you could have thousands of discrete
frequencies with a code consisting a few dozen or two. That's make
trying to "pick" the lock problematic. Not impossible, just time
consuming.

Especially if it has "traps" like frequencies that are *never* used by
the cards, and thus indicate a possible attempt to pick the lock. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
Message-ID: <AA-FD46A220263513E872C2C5D66B592F00-ZZ@homebase1.prodigy.net>

Same idea, but the one I'm looking for was at *least* 
a 40 footer...

Jesse


--- Original Message ---
From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing 
Yachts

>Check out http://www.windrocket.com/index.html.
>
>WKH
>
>JDEGRAFF@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
>> Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I 
remembered
>> seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat
>> that had not a conventional sail, but basically an
>> airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been 
Google'ing
>> around trying to find information and pictures about
>> this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know 
more
>> info about this boat or have any links?
>>
>> Jesse
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TML mailing list
>> TML@travellercentral.com
>> 
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
Message-ID: <AA-859664D2580835FD9C720DB5289F1E5A-ZZ@homebase1.prodigy.net>

THAT'S what I was looking for!  Thanks!  It's 
unfortunate that the pics are so small, but oh 
well :)  I tried about 15-20 different thing when 
looking for the bloody thing, but "wingsail" wasn't 
one of them.  "Wing sail" WAS one of them but I likely 
didn't dig deep enough.

Thanks again!
Jesse

<snip JR Holmes' work>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] If the TML seems sluggish...
Message-ID: <B8D13B56.3730F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

If the TML seems sluggish it's probably because I am in the process of
converting old mail archives to the new online archive format.

I expect to recover all archives back to mid 2001 without difficulty.

I've been looking over the archives from the past (back to 1995) and
converting them may take quite a bit of work.

I hope to be able to convert all existing TML (and XBOAT) archives into the
new format.  I may need to tap into some skilled brainpower of the TML.
Stay tuned.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:36:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:36:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Kians
Message-ID: <d8.15e7e500.29dd568a@aol.com>

--part1_d8.15e7e500.29dd568a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>     Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
>kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
>pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
>Cavalry.
>     Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?

  JTAS #9, per the "JTAS Index" from Jim V., posted 1 Mar 2002?

   Hey,
   Stats for these Tauntaun knock-offs were also provided in The Best of the 
Journal #3 (which I'm reading right now). 
   Says here they're large, plains-dwelling, herbivore grazers that travel in 
herds. Originally from Prilissa/Trin's Veil, but are exported, and now a 
common sight Coreward.
   Extremely good eyesight and hearing. Eat 30-50kg plant matter/day.
   Can carry up to 250kg comfortably. If overloaded, it'll refuse to move.

   (CT Stats follow)   
#       Type       Wt        Hits     Armor   Wounds & Weapons
10-60 Grazer     400kg   25/10   jack      10   Hooves  A9  F4  S3

   -Ken Murphy- 
   

--part1_d8.15e7e500.29dd568a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
<BR>&gt;kian hails from? &nbsp;I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
<BR>&gt;pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
<BR>&gt;Cavalry.
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;JTAS #9, per the "JTAS Index" from Jim V., posted 1 Mar 2002?
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Hey,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Stats for these Tauntaun knock-offs were also provided in The Best of the Journal #3 (which I'm reading right now). 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Says here they're large, plains-dwelling, herbivore grazers that travel in herds. Originally from Prilissa/Trin's Veil, but are exported, and now a common sight Coreward.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Extremely good eyesight and hearing. Eat 30-50kg plant matter/day.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Can carry up to 250kg comfortably. If overloaded, it'll refuse to move.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;(CT Stats follow) &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR># &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Type &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Wt &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hits &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Armor &nbsp;&nbsp;Wounds &amp; Weapons
<BR>10-60 Grazer &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;400kg &nbsp;&nbsp;25/10 &nbsp;&nbsp;jack &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;10 &nbsp;&nbsp;Hooves &nbsp;A9 &nbsp;F4 &nbsp;S3
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;-Ken Murphy- 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_d8.15e7e500.29dd568a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:37:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:37:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403231032.00ab9320@pop.wizard.net>

>You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the
>stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to
>get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments
>to try and offset this sort of risk?
>
>Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?

People familiar with the market can _always_ fleece someone in the public, 
in fact that's generally what they are doing at any given moment.  At least 
in the good ol' US of A.  (I was a stockbroker in one of my former lives.)

Pretty standard options contracts should cover it.  The same ones that are 
traded now.  Plus you could do other things to try to hedge.  But, except 
in very extraordinary and usually fleeting situations, you won't be able to 
completely eliminate your risk unless you are also willing to eliminate 
your potential profit.

What a lot of people never realize about options, is the contracts are 
_not_ issued by the company that you're trading in, they have nothing to do 
with it.  And in fact, a lot of people have trouble understanding that when 
they buy shares of a stock, they (usually) are not buying the shares 
directly from the company, except in initial public offerings when a 
company goes from privately held to publicly held.  After the IPO, the 
members of the public who bought the shares will sell them to other members 
of the public from time to time, and they in turn may sell them to others, 
and so on and on.  When you buy a stock that is traded on an exchange, 
you're buying it from another investor just like you (or maybe not so much 
like you, heh) and the two of you are basically negotiating a bet on how 
much you each think the shares will be worth in the future.  I sell IBM at 
70 because I think the shares are going in the crapper, and you buy it at 
70 because you think the next annual report will spark investor 
confidence.  In other words, it's all just legalized gambling where people 
bet on what the mob psychology is going to be.

Now that we have that crude primer out of the way for people who are less 
acquianted with the fundamentals.

Stock exchanges on 21st century Terra all get information as soon as 
everybody else in existence get it.  It's a globally connected world, and 
valuable information moves at lightning speed.  There is nobody off world, 
so they don't need worry about a time delay.  Unless you count shuttle or 
space station personnel, and their time delay is neglible for purposes of 
this discussion.  So, everyone who is negotiating a bet on what the value 
of stock in Thingie Corp at this particular microsecond is theoretically 
party to the same information that the person on their side of their 
negotiation is.

If you send some of the people who trade in the stock off to a different 
planet, and it takes basically a week for information from this planet to 
reach that planet, then the smart thing to do is create an exchange on that 
far away planet where people there can trade the stock.  All the people at 
the faraway planet are theoretically party to new and relevant information 
at the same time as the rest of the folks at that planet.

In practice, this may not always be true.  Jump times are approximately one 
week, but depending on the dice and the quality of your ship's navigator 
you may make the journey roughly a day faster or a day slower.  If you can 
manage to reach Glisten from Regina a day sooner than anyone else who left 
Regina the same time you did, then you have one day during which you know 
something they don't know.

If the local exchange(s) at Glisten are trading in Regina FunCorp, ILC then 
they'll all be sharing the same stale, weeks-old news, and their trading 
decisions will be based on that news.  If you just happen to reach Glisten 
a day early, and you just happen to know that Regina FunCorp announced 
moments before you left that their CEO is being fired for malfeasance, 
there is a Regina Justice Department investigation into major auditing 
irregularities, and their comptroller just committed suicide when he 
received a subpoena, then you have an opportunity to short the hell out of 
Regina FunCorp on Glisten at prices the locals are probably willing to give 
you but wouldn't dream of if they knew the latest news.

In other words, each world with significant levels of commerce will almost 
certainly have its own stock exchange and shares traded elsewhere in the 
Imperium (or outside it, in many cases) may also be traded there.  It 
doesn't guarantee they _will_ be traded there.  Only if there's sufficient 
interest on Glisten in that particular issue will it be listed for trading 
there.  Whoever runs the exchange on Glisten will probably have regulations 
about how many shares must be registered to owners in system, how many 
shares must trade in any given day, etc.  If an issue doesn't live up to 
those minimum standards, the exchange's owners or regulators will delist it 
and you'll have to find somebody else to buy from you or sell to you.

And the person who just arrived a day ahead of schedule from Regina can 
make a killing on Glisten in Regina FunCorp speculation.  If RFC is listed, 
and if there are enough people willing to buy from him during that given 
day, and if he has the funds or credit to do what he is trying to do.

Bear in mind that if someone just arrived in system and they suddenly go as 
wild as they can buying or selling a particular stock, then that by itself 
will affect the stock.  Any time a seller drives up trading volume in one 
issue by 50% above normal, that's going to make a big difference.

In other words, if Bill Gates decided to actually start selling all his 
Microsoft shares one day, he'd drive Microsoft's price down into the 
gutter.  Even if nobody knew all those shares suddenly on the market 
belonged to an insider, it would just be a huge supply and demand 
imbalance.  And Gates would discover that people who reckon his net worth 
on paper are living in a very theoretical world.  He'd still be rich as the 
devil, but not nearly as rich people say he is.  Because people do say he 
is richer than the devil, you know.

Keeping all the above in mind, and keeping in mind that many exchanges on 
different planets will have reciprocal arrangements to ensure they're 
regulated virtually identically but many other exchanges will fly by night 
if they feel like it, there will be plenty of incentive for someone who 
trades in shares on an interstellar basis to get their news sooner than 
everyone else.  So there will be classes of people continually jumping 
ships between financial centers in hopes of getting to the destination a 
few hours before everyone else and keeping key information to 
themselves.  The really big brokerage firms will probably maintain their 
own fleets that do nothing but jump and then beam info by laser at the 
destination system while collecting beamed info from that system then 
jumping back.  Or they will pay an outside contractor to do that.  Or they 
will make it very well known to navigators and captains everywhere that 
they pay a bounty for such information.  There may even be cowboy operators 
who speculatively jump back and forth trying to be that first person to 
arrive with the news.  And a good navigator should command very rewarding 
compensation if he hires on with people like this.

Done babbling now.  Comments?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:38:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:38:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FE@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404040632.00aba320@pop.wizard.net>

>Kindest Sophont Laning,
>Regarding your RFP for a "modest", helicopter (how quaint!) equipped 
>motoryacht,
>are you looking for something in an expedition style yacht
>[http://www.yachtworld.com/expeditionyachts/expeditionyachts_3.html], 
>something
>classical [http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/], or something a little more
>aggressive looking? [http://www.newzealandyachts.com/].
>
>Best Regards,
>David Phoenecius
>Blackmoore Heavy Industries

Dear Sophont Phoenecius,

In regards your kind inquiry via recent Xmessage, please accept my grateful 
thanks for your interest.  After perusing the three styles you've 
indicated, the one that seems most attractive was that quaint and slightly 
aging, but gracefully appointed and impeccably maintained Britannia 
item.  It will need some refitting for the helipad and hangar, but I'm sure 
your reknowned naval architects will be able to devise something that 
remains true to the elegant yet relaxed Old World ambience one has such a 
difficult time finding these days.

Although it's former notoriety as a "ship of state" for some monarch on the 
Solomani Rim may lend it an air of gaucheness in some sophont's eyes, I 
prefer seeing it as imbuing this storied floating getaway with character 
and history, however local in nature.

In closing, please have your sophonts contact my sophonts and instruct them 
on the administrative details necessary to transfer funds via xboat.  My 
seneschal will pass on to me any recommendations you make regarding place 
and date of delivery, and I will consider them in the most favorable light 
as I've the utmost of trust in your judgment.

Long live Emperor Strephon,

Laning, His Grace, Duke of So Many Places He Doesn't Bother To Count Them 
Anymore


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:39:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:39:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404041749.00ab8ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn pointed out:
>Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?
>
>http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html
>
>Now that's what I am talking about.
>--


Oh my.  Speaking of Captain Nemo.  And what would Freud say?  I think 
that's actually relevant in this instance, because if anyone goes that far 
out of their way to have this thing, then it isn't "just a cigar".

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <20020403.170340.-179719.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404042049.00abc060@pop.wizard.net>

>
>Why not just take Catalina Island off the Southern California's Long
>Beach coast.

The thought has crossed my mind.  And Dashiell Hammett set one of his more 
daring, but lesser, stories there before the War.  Which has been copied in 
various films at least every ten years since then.  It makes for an 
interesting Traveller scenario, no matter which exact setting you translate 
it to.

The basic idea is robbers with grandiose visions take over at gunpoint the 
entire play resort of high rollers and the rich for one night, stripping 
everyone there of anything valuable, then escape into the night by 
boat.  They're tough, combat veterans, equipped with Thompson submachine 
guns and grenades as part of their arsenal.  I think.  Haven't read the 
story for at least twenty years.  At the time of the story, Catalina was 
home to one of the most heavily trafficked casinos that Americans frequented.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:40:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:40:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani Rim data errors?
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020403080940.027e7b68@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000201c1dbc2$54800920$fc00a8c0@imogen>

I've noticed some apparent anomalies in the  electronic  versions
of  the  Solomani  Rim.   These  anomalies  seem  to  have   been
replicated across multiple formats:

- Doug's World website (data.xls)
- Heaven&Earth (Solomani_Rim.HES)
- TR Tools (solomani.uwp)
- World Builders Deluxe (Solomani_Rim.WBS)
- ? (solomani.sdf)

... possibly others.

These anomalies are:
- 0606 Ishadar ... has a "KO" (kay-oh) star, this should be "K0" (kay-zero)
- 1901 Eshellim ... has a "VII" size star, this should be "D"
- 2205 Ikaakur ... has a "K3 IV" star, this should be "K0 IV"
- 2222 Ninkhur Sagga ... lacks any stellar data, and also lacks PBG codes

Any comments, disagreements, or the missing data for Ninkhur Sagga?

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:41:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:41:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
In-Reply-To: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404042713.00abaec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 10:38 PM 4/3/02 -0500, Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered
>seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat
>that had not a conventional sail, but basically an
>airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing
>around trying to find information and pictures about
>this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more
>info about this boat or have any links?
>
>Jesse

No.  But there is Cousteau's experimental "sail" boat.  Sort of a high-tech 
windmill that looks like a cross between a barber's pole, a maypole, a 
mast, and a sail.  I believe it drives a motor that drives a propulsion 
system.  Or is the motor.  I never have found out.  It should be easy to 
track down with Google.

Also, it makes a suitably outre and science-fictiony gizmo to place on some 
world's oceans so the your travellers get that sense of the new and alien, 
and living in the future.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:42:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:42:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Biochemistry (was : How common is advanced life?)
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOIEBACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Jens Rydholm wrote :-
> I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might
> look under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary
> after a while.
"Advanced" = multicellular, right?

> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life
> might function using radically different biochemistries?
Some of Ike Asimov's stuff can be summarised like this :-

Mean Envt.
Temperature   Biomolecules               Solvent
>150 C        Fluorinated silicones      Molten sulphur
-20 to 150 C  The stuff we're made of    Water
<-259C        Substituted lipids         Liquid hydrogen

As for what critters look like, that's a complex function of niche,
environment, and random selective factors (e.g. mass extinctions).

There was a Xenobiology overview I posted to the TML a long time ago
which addressed some of these issues.

What particular points would you like amplified or discussed?


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:43:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:43:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <20020404095814.B46FA27A5B@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204041254070.2194-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Charles (CHam628781@aol.com) writes:
>webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>>>_H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
>>>mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
>>>reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
>>>but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
>>>
>>>[*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.
>>
>>Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are
>>interfertile.

I didn't say they were. I said that the Zhodani _claims_ that they are.
Erroneously, as it happens, but when have facts ever interfered with
political theories?

>Depends on what you mean by "interfertile" some species (including ones with
>differing numbers of chromosomes) can interbreed but not produce fertile
>young.

Interfertile for the purpose of establishing that two population groups
belong to the same species means 'capable of producing fertile offspring'.
(At least when you're talking about mammals).

>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk
>writes:
>
>>>Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
>>>ridiculous as well.
>>
>>No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H.
>>erectus_
>>and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
>>actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
>>it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
>>showing up as early as that.
>
>H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say
>I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H.
>sapiens back that far.

The book I got my information from was written in 1997, so I think it
qualifies for the term 'modern'. It's been returned to the library, so I
can't provide the name, but a web search of the tern 'archaic Homo
sapiens' provided me with 12 links, the first three of which either put
archaic Homo sapiens that far back or left the qustion open (I didn't
check the rest).

http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/ANTD15/Bill/multi-media.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#moderns

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html#C


>>But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
>>tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In
>>the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place
>>_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.
>
>True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are
>descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even
>more arrogant than they already are.

Whether it would be more interesting is debatable. And such a debate would
be moot, because that's not the way it is. Both Vilani and zhodani are
expressly said to be members of _H. sapiens_.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:43:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Oops
Message-ID: <PGNMAANMJKDGGCAA@angelfire.com>

Dear all,I was wondering if you could help me.

I'm going away for the weekend and don't want to crash my mail server. How do I go about suspending the list while I'm away?

Cheers
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem




Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:44:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:44:41 2002
Subject: [TML] (long) Re: inheritance Imperial style
References: <20020403181406.EE90627A4D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c1dbe6$52c83ca0$025d8690@computer>

> From: laning
> IIRC, the Albigensian Crusade was the first Crusade.

Bzzt.  Thank you for playing.  The first crusade ended in 1099.  I've
grabbed a couple of entries on the Albigensian Crusade from one of my handy
encyclopedia CDs.

OBTRAVs should be obvious enough.

Excerpts from The Oxford Interactive Encyclopedia:
Albigensians, followers of a form of the Cathar heresy; they took their name
from the town of Albi in Languedoc in southern France. There and in northern
Italy the sect acquired immense popularity. The movement was condemned at
the Council of Toulouse in 1119 and by the Third and Fourth Lateran councils
in 1179 and 1215, which opposed it not only as heretical but because it
threatened the family and the state. St Bernard and St Dominic were its
vigorous opponents. Between 1209 and 1228 the wars known as the Albigensian
Crusade were mounted, led principally by Simon de Montfort. By 1229 the
heretics were largely crushed and the Treaty of Meaux delivered most of
their territory to France.

Cathar (Greek katharos, 'pure'), a member of a medieval sect seeking to
achieve a life of great purity. Cathars believed in a 'dualist' heresy.
Their basic belief was that if God, being wholly good, had alone created the
world it would have been impossible for evil to exist within it, and that
another, diabolical, creative force must have taken part. They held that the
material world and all within it were irredeemably evil. The human body and
its appetites were despised. Marriage was rejected and suicide by starvation
was admired. A pure life was impossible to all but a very few called the
'perfect', and the rest--known simply as 'believers'--could live as they
wished. Salvation was assured if they took a form of confirmation known as
the 'consolamentum' before death. This ceremony was to be delayed as long as
possible to reduce the chance of the recipient's sinning further before he
or she died. The heresy originated in Bulgaria and appeared in western
Europe in the 1140s. In southern France this Christian heresy was called
Albigensianism.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:45:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:45:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
References: <20020403200103.CA19127A56@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c1dbe6$5218c2c0$025d8690@computer>

> From: "Rachel Kronick"
> I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists
> Table (UTT),

Hmm.  We'd probably want a bit of a framework to hang the Twists together.
It wouldn't have to be too complex - an introduction, set of "acts", climax
and conclusion structure would probably work.

Using stuff other people develop to provide surprise is a good idea too.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B8D1A48C.37332%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
Message-ID: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning expounds majestically on the value of information
<snip>

It almost sounds like there's the Imperial X-Boat, but a 
brokerage might run an x-boat to and from each system several 
times a day with the news and trading information. It still 
takes a week to get information, but it would be hard 
to "beat the boat".

It would make things more interesting if you had things 
arranged so that jumps took a week + or - some hours. Let's 
say that the modifier, as you suggested, would be the 
navigator's skill.  Therefore, we roll 2D6, - Nav.  If you 
roll a 7, that's exactly on time.  But if you roll higher, 
you are an hour late for each number higher.  And you are one 
hour earlier for each number lower.

Makes me think that a lot of navigators will get their 
training doing Imperial x-boat, and then change career to fly 
for a private broker or a merchant line that contracts to 
brokers.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Oops
In-Reply-To: <PGNMAANMJKDGGCAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <B8D1A906.37346%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 11:34 AM, Andrew Whincup at shanhat@angelfire.com wrote:

> Dear all,I was wondering if you could help me.
> 
> I'm going away for the weekend and don't want to crash my mail server. How do
> I go about suspending the list while I'm away?
> 

go to http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Log in and set "Disable Mail Delivery" to yes
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 07:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 07:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

My wife caught me working on the standard operating 
procedures/tips manual, and she asked what it was for. She's 
a technical writer, so she's attracted to large documents.

I told her that it was tips, and in large part, a standard 
operating procedure manual for Traveller parties.

She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000 
Certified?"
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 07:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu Apr  4 07:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404042049.00abc060@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020404152552.33017.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com>

--- laning <laning@wizard.net> wrote:
> 
> >
> >Why not just take Catalina Island off the Southern
> California's Long
> >Beach coast.
> 
> The thought has crossed my mind.  And Dashiell
> Hammett set one of his more 
> daring, but lesser, stories there before the War. 
> Which has been copied in 
> various films at least every ten years since then. 
> It makes for an 
> interesting Traveller scenario, no matter which
> exact setting you translate 
> it to.
> 
> The basic idea is robbers with grandiose visions
> take over at gunpoint the 
> entire play resort of high rollers and the rich for
> one night, stripping 
> everyone there of anything valuable, then escape
> into the night by 
> boat.  They're tough, combat veterans, equipped with
> Thompson submachine 
> guns and grenades as part of their arsenal.  I
> think.  Haven't read the 
> story for at least twenty years.  At the time of the
> story, Catalina was 
> home to one of the most heavily trafficked casinos
> that Americans frequented.
> 
> --Laning
> 
  >>
  AHA! So THAT's where Able Team #2(or was it 3?) came
from! I knew that wasn't an original idea......

 MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 07:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 07:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>

At 10:15 AM 4/4/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>My wife caught me working on the standard operating
>procedures/tips manual, and she asked what it was for. She's
>a technical writer, so she's attracted to large documents.
>I told her that it was tips, and in large part, a standard
>operating procedure manual for Traveller parties.
>She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
>Certified?"

I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor training.

Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.

"You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections & standards"

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"Government does not cause affluence.  Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:13:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:13:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Hidden decks  was RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3604@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Paul Walker wrote:
Hey!  I used to work for Trinity before they spun away
from Halter Marine.
<snip cool story>

LOL!  That's pretty funny :)

I'll let the gearheads figure out what size densitometer would be needed to find something like that, and at what range they'd be able to do it from.  From a conceptual design standpoint, if you're trying to fool an on-board customs inspection team that doesn't have densitometers, I'd think about using a deck layout like the AHL.  Have one (or more) of the marked fuel decks be the hidden deck(s), with either no access from the lifts or surreptitious access.  Use a keycard in a reader hidden in the wall panel seams near your right toe or somesuch.

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
References: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c1dbf2$1d1b9500$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: economic crash


> laning expounds majestically on the value of information
> <snip>
>
> It almost sounds like there's the Imperial X-Boat, but a
> brokerage might run an x-boat to and from each system several
> times a day with the news and trading information. It still
> takes a week to get information, but it would be hard
> to "beat the boat".
>
> It would make things more interesting if you had things
> arranged so that jumps took a week + or - some hours. Let's
> say that the modifier, as you suggested, would be the
> navigator's skill.  Therefore, we roll 2D6, - Nav.  If you
> roll a 7, that's exactly on time.  But if you roll higher,
> you are an hour late for each number higher.  And you are one
> hour earlier for each number lower.
>
> Makes me think that a lot of navigators will get their
> training doing Imperial x-boat, and then change career to fly
> for a private broker or a merchant line that contracts to
> brokers.

This would work well IMTU.

IMTU if two ships were within a few hundred km of each other, and both
Jumped at the same time with their exit point again being within a few
hundred km of each other, you would roll the dice for the Jump duration once
and apply the result to both ships. They would emerge from jump at almost
exactly the same time. The variance would be on the order of a few seconds
to a couple of minutes at most.

If they were both to immediately return to their starting points, you would
again make a single jump duration roll and apply it to both ships. Note that
the first jump might take 6.5 days the second might be 7.5. This is due to
the changes in Jumpspace due to the movement of large gravity wells in real
space. At the commencement of Jump the crew know exactly how long *that
particular jump* will take, and this same time will be taken by any other
vessels in the neighbourhood jumping to the same destination for the next
few hours or so. The next time that particular route is taken the roll will
give a different result as conditions have changed.

Now, using your proposed navigation roll, the Navigator becomes more
important, as he strives to shave a few hours off the duration by optimising
the route, skirting closer to intervening gravity wells. A cautious
navigator will add a few hours on as he gives potential hazards a wider
berth...

Perhaps the navigator could state the numbers of hours they wanted to
shorten or extend the jump by as a DM. on 2D 8+ to avoid potential misjump:
DM + 2*Navigator Skill, + Hours of extra Jump duration, - Hours of reduced
Jump Duration

So a Navigator with Skill 2 could add 2 Hours to the Rolled Jump duration
and be safe. A real Hotshot with  Nav-4 could trim 2 Hours of the jump time
and still be safe etc

The effect of a failed roll would be to roll on the misjump table with the
difference between the modified Nav roll and 8 as the DM on the misjump
table.

Another way to increase the utility of the Navigator is to let them
calculate the Jump duration given jumping now, in six hours, 12 hours etc.
Basically, let the navigator roll the duration in advance a number of times
equal to their Nav Skill. Each successive roll equates to the calculated
Jump duration from Here to There given Jumping Now, and successive six hour*
intervals later. It may well result that the fastest route through Jumpspace
occurs in 12 Hours time, and will get you there with 24 hours shorter jump
duration than those rolled for Now, Six hours, Eighteen hours etc. The
prudent Merchant would therefore wait 12 hours before Jumping, as he will
thus arrive in the destination system at least 12 hours earlier than jumping
now. The party in a hurry to get the Hell out of Dodge might prefer to Jump
now, despite a longer Jump duration, as incoming missiles make doing so
prudent...

To sum this up:

Skill       Advance Rolls
0            0. Only rolls upon Jump initiation to see how long this Jump is

1            1 Can see how long a Jump initiated now will take BEFORE
initiating Jump. May Wait Six hours* and                     try again for a
better result
2            2 Can see Jump duration if jump initiated Now and if initiated
in 6 hours* time.

3            3 As 2, but can see Now, 6 Hours*, and 12 Hour* durations

4            4 Now, 6*, 12*, 18*

etc

*Obviously, you can tweak the 6 hour thing to suit your own style... 4
hourly intervals may be just as good (or even better) gaming wise...

So a skilled Navigator can not only forecast better jump windows, they can
the try to shave time off those as well... "Beating the Boat" becomes a lot
more interesting =)

(Also, this 'a given jump takes a given duration if performed at a given
time' situation allows for Fleets to arrive as a coordinated unit, rather
than as a rag-tag of ships scattered over 2 days. Should cheer up the
military planners out there <g>)

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:15:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:15:54 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404082015.00ac34e0@mail.verizon.net>

Hi John,

Just remember, ISO-9000 is about demonstrating that you have a documented 
process, not that you follow it!  ;-)

Best regards,

Charles

At 10:15 AM 4/4/02 -0500, you wrote:
>My wife caught me working on the standard operating
>procedures/tips manual, and she asked what it was for. She's
>a technical writer, so she's attracted to large documents.
>
>I told her that it was tips, and in large part, a standard
>operating procedure manual for Traveller parties.
>
>She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
>Certified?"
>________________
>Do you think my being stronger and
>faster has anything to do with my
>muscles in this place?...Do you think
>that's air that you are breathing?
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:16:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:16:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Solomani Rim data errors?
Message-ID: <000201c1dbff$e448bc40$fc00a8c0@imogen>

Oops, just rechecked LBB 6 (Scouts) and I now think 2205 (Ikaakur)
should be "K3 V".

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:17:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:17:23 2002
Subject: [TML] More data errors?
Message-ID: <000301c1dbff$e508ff00$fc00a8c0@imogen>

I've now checked Alpha Crucis and Antares.  It appears  that  the
rule that K5-M9 is not available for size IV stars and  B0-F4  is
not available for size size VI stars (and in  both  cases  change
the size to V) has not been applied.  I suspect I'm going to find
this in most sectors.  Has anyone noticed this before?

Regards PLST



ALPHA CRUCIS SECTOR
===================
A0204 "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
A0806 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
B0309 "K4 IV" should be "K4 V"
B0606 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
D0310 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
E0103 "K3 IV" should be "K3 V"
E0207 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
E0408 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
E0602 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
E0704 "M5 IV" should be "M5 V"
F0307 "M2 IV" should be "M2 V"
F0402 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
F0506 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
F0510 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
F0710 "K6 IV" should be "K6 V"
G0108 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V" ... then swap the primary and companion
G0801 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
G0807 "M2 IV" should be "M2 V"
H0506 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
H0609 "K5 IV" should be "K5 V"
H0702 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
I0103 "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
J0203 "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
J0209 "K6 IV" should be "K6 V"
J0607 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
J0710 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
L0709 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
L0805 "M2 IV" should be "M2 V"
M0310 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
N0405 "K9 IV" should be "K9 V"
N0501 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
N0504 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
N0509 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
N0810 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
O0102 "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
O0703 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
O0709 "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
O0805 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"



ANTARES SECTOR
==============
A0507: "F3 VI" should be "F3 V"
A0602: "M9 IV" should be "M9 V"
A0801: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
B0708: "K5 IV" should be "K5 V"
C0204: "F0 VI" should be "F0 V"
C0401: "F1 VI" should be "F1 V"
C0801: "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
E0102: "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
E0105: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
F0302: "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
F0508: "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
F0610: "K9 IV" should be "K9 V"
G0108: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
G0803: "K1 IV" should be "K1 V"
I0105: "K6 IV" should be "K6 V"
J0305: "F4 VI" should be "F4 V"
J0605: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
J0608: "F0 VI" should be "F0 V"
L0108: "K2 IV" should be "K2 V"
M0207: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
M0402: "K2 IV" should be "K2 V"
M0706: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
M0707: "F0 VI" should be "F0 V"
N0306: "F1 VI" should be "F1 V"
O0107: "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
O0302: "F4 VI" should be "F4 V"
O0503: "F4 VI" should be "F4 V"
P0107: "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
P0205: "F3 VI" should be "F3 V"
P0502: "F1 VI" should be "F1 V"

(done)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
References: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1dbff$e6158d00$fc00a8c0@imogen>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
> stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
> get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
> to try and offset this sort of risk?

There are ways to avoid this.

First, rather than invest directly in one or other stock  instead
invest in a unit trust.  These are funds made up of a  basket  of
stocks, so if one collapsed suddenly your losses are cushioned by
the others in the fund.  A fund manger "on-site" then  trades  in
and out of any stocks on that exchange  based  on  circumstances.
His goal is to maximise the fund's performance ... which in  turn
attracts more investors.  Unless the fund manager is  incompetant
you shouldn't loose unless the whole exchange is in decline.

Second, you let your broker buy and sell on your behalf: you  can
give him instructions ranging from a  few  sentences  to  several
pages ... this is called a client  mandate  (where  you  are  the
client).  For example: a simple mandate might say "sell any stock
whose price drops below  the  purchase  price  and  reinvest  any
monies  (including  dividend  payments)   in   manufacturers   of
environmentally friendly products".

Check out StuffOnline ...
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol  and  in  the  Traveller
section you'll find a link called "Financial Markets".



> Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?

This is unlikely to happen for two reasons:

(1)  Financial markets are heavily regulated to prevent  fleecing
     ... it can still happen but those who try often face lengthy
     prison terms.

(2)  Brokers and other financial institutions  live  and  die  on
     reputation.  The last thing they  want  is  for  someone  to
     claim they did not  act  in  the  best  interests  of  their
     clients.  (Contrary to popular  belief  the  slogan  of  the
     London financial community is *not* "who dares wins", it  is
     "my word is my bond".)

A bank's  Compliance  Department  doesn't  just  investigate  any
anomalies reported, it will be pro-active and involve itself with
day-to-day business (like a QA department).



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:18:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:18:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Tugs, etc
Message-ID: <200204041934.DIV01979@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I haven't seen many designs for a "tug", a useful vessel for 
attaching to and moving other larger vessels.  Might also be 
useful for moving large asteroids that come in from the outer 
system and pose a hazard to navigation (or even to a planet).

Was just reading
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-space-
menace0404apr04.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnationworld%2Dheadlines

and had a mental picture of some bored tug crew getting 
orders to move out and push this piece of rock into the sun.

"What are you so excited about?  It's just another asteroid."
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:19:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:19:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <F115a0x5eceUXj0sZb00001399a@hotmail.com>

Texas Redshift <texasredshift@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > If the 'Alien' from the movie boarded my ship, <snip> Subsequent
> > events to be determined by the referee.  :->
>
>I liked the movie, but I always thought the crewmembers of the Nostromo had 
>way too much trouble getting their act together.

They had a lot of factors working against them.  Nothing
inside the ship was any kind of secureable except the computer
room, since no one was supposed to be aboard except
triple-cleared company employees.  They had a traitor in their
midst, and a secret agenda going on from their corporate masters.
A small group of wage-slave technicians running a cargo ship
were way out of their league, and had an appropriate casualty
rate.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:20:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:20:20 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <005e01c1dc0d$850509b0$c8d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

 "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
> >Certified?"
> 
> I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor training.
> 
> Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.
> 
> "You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections & standards"
>

Argh. Day job intrudes even here!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:21:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:21:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani Rim data errors?
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020403080940.027e7b68@192.168.0.1> <000201c1dbc2$54800920$fc00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <DAV457emxUgjtwxoJ9Y000140e6@hotmail.com>

Per Supplement 10 The Solomani Rim

Ninkhur Sagga    Sol 0602    BAA7769 D   Military Rule  G

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com

> - 2222 Ninkhur Sagga ... lacks any stellar data, and also lacks PBG codes
> 
> Any comments, disagreements, or the missing data for Ninkhur Sagga?
> 
> Regards PLST
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <005e01c1dc0d$850509b0$c8d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404162723.00a8aea0@urbin.net>

At 08:15 PM 4/4/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>  "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
> > >Certified?"
> > I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> > I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor training.
> > Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.
> > "You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections & standards"
>
>Argh. Day job intrudes even here!

Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.


----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"It is both foolish and wicked to teach the average man who is
not well off that some wrong or injustice has been done him,
and that he should hope for redress elsewhere than in his own
industry, honesty, and intelligence." -- Theodore Roosevelt,
"Review of Reviews", January 1897
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tugs, etc
Message-ID: <20020404.134744.-5683.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

John

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:34:11 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> I haven't seen many designs for a "tug", a useful vessel for 
> attaching to and moving other larger vessels.  Might also be 
> useful for moving large asteroids that come in from the outer 
> system and pose a hazard to navigation (or even to a planet).

I've adopted a couple of tugs from my Starwars flight sim games XWing and
Tie Fighter. None were used to tow large ships though. Their role was
transporting of various cargo containers, and crew. I designed both the
tugs and cargo containers with MT for MTU.  I also designed jump cargo
transports as well.

You're welcome to ask for them, and even correct flaws in my designing.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:02:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:02:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <200204041157.DIF02066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>

JTK quoted Laning and wrote:
> >Oh, if I do go Marine, how do you feel about my house rule
> >of substituting battle ax skill for cutlass skill as the
> >default Marine 'blade' weapon?
>
>I don't think that the battle axe is something that is
>readily laying around.  I have a hard enough time with the
>default "blade" being anything except bayonet, but that's me.
I'm copying this to the TML, because I think a lot of folks there might 
enjoy it.  :->

Classic Traveller says the default blade skill that Marines cascade to is 
Bayonet.  For reasons of tradition, esprit de corps, inspiring confidence 
in troops, and instilling the proper spirit of attack.  Same reasons that 
Marc Miller had to suffer through bayonet drills when he was in the Army 
even though the widespread opinion of the day was that bayonet training is 
obsolete.  In other words, I think the Traveller ruling is largely a 
product of the times during which it was written.

I like to think that the introduction of practical battle armor would 
change this equation, and it would make a very big impact on fighting in 
boarding actions.  Combat ranges will often be melee distance.  Opponents 
will all be wearing at least vacc suit for armor.  The Imperial Marines 
would have adjusted to this tactical requirement centuries ago, and a 
one-handed battle axe intended to puncture armor would be the default melee 
weapon.  For Marines.  Even if there is widespread opinion that boarding 
actions are rare.  For reasons of tradition, esprit de corps, inspiring 
confidence in troops, and instilling the proper spirit of attack, Imperial 
Marines take the practice very seriously.

Battle axes would be in abundant supply around Navy and Marine 
armories.  And, as you say, not exactly readily laying around anywhere 
else.  Except maybe in 'army surplus shops', a place where people usually 
like to buy militaria.  Also, every Marine recruiting office will have one 
proudly displayed on a wall plaque behind the OIC's or NCOIC's desk, 
crossed with a gauss rifle.  Both weapons very firmly attached to said 
plaque by lots of wiring.  The axe has probably never been sharpened.

There's also the apocryphal, but widely believed, tale of a legendary 
Imperial Marine.  During the Fourth Frontier War, Sergeant Alvin Horatio 
singlehandedly defended the hatchway leading onto his ship's bridge with 
nothing but battle dress and his battle axe for over three hours against 
literally hundreds of Sword Worlders who had boarded the ship.  Meanwhile, 
surviving bridge crew were working in their vacc suits behind him to repair 
control consoles and access antiboarding software routines.  They 
succeeded, and triggered the 'grav ping-pong' routine for the corridor 
outside their bridge.  Tellers of the tale differ over whether Sergeant 
Horatio survived or whether the grav ping-pong killed him along with the 
remainder of his foe.  All versions of the tale agree that he had slain 72 
of the enemy with his battle axe when the battle ended.  The enemy had to 
keep pulling back their corpses just to get enough room to attack him.  It 
is said that Sergeant Horatio originally came from a low tech level, low 
law level planet and grew up in a lumberjacking area.  'Horatio at the 
bridge' is a piece of lore that every Marine has embedded in them.

IMTU, the Imperial Marines replace crossed rifles with a 
rifle-crossed-with-battle-axe on their uniform and unit insignia.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017958207.9067.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> 
> I like to think that the introduction of practical battle armor would 
> change this equation, and it would make a very big impact on fighting in 
> boarding actions.  Combat ranges will often be melee distance.  Opponents 
> will all be wearing at least vacc suit for armor.  The Imperial Marines 
> would have adjusted to this tactical requirement centuries ago, and a 
> one-handed battle axe intended to puncture armor would be the default melee
>  weapon. 

There's one very important reason for the bayonet: it lets you have a melee
weapon while carrying a real weapon (a firearm) as well.  A battleaxe doesn't
do this.

A battleaxe, even with the strength of powered armor behind it, shouldn't have
much of a chance of penetrating any significant level of armor.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
Message-ID: <92.23b50a36.29de2962@aol.com>

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>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk
>writes:
>
>>>Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
>>>ridiculous as well.
>>
>>No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H.
>>erectus_
>>and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
>>actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
>>it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
>>showing up as early as that.
>
>H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say
>I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H.
>sapiens back that far.

The book I got my information from was written in 1997, so I think it
qualifies for the term 'modern'. It's been returned to the library, so I
can't provide the name, but a web search of the tern 'archaic Homo
sapiens' provided me with 12 links, the first three of which either put
archaic Homo sapiens that far back or left the qustion open (I didn't
check the rest).

http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/ANTD15/Bill/multi-media.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#moderns

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html#C

Archaic H. sapiens is an interchangeable term for H. heidelbergensis. There 
are clear morphological differences between H. heidelbergensis and H. sapiens 
(and possibly behavioural differences) but the term archaic H. sapiens has 
not yet died out. You sometimes also see H. heidelbergensis called H. sapiens 
heidelbergensis and modern humans called H. sapiens sapiens.

Paleoanthropologists like a good fight about a name - see the current debate 
about H. ergaster / H. erectus for an example.

> 
> 
> >>But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
> >>tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. 
> In
> >>the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't 
> place
> >>_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.
> >
> >True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are
> >descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be 
> even
> >more arrogant than they already are.
> 
> Whether it would be more interesting is debatable. And such a debate would
> be moot, because that's not the way it is. Both Vilani and zhodani are
> expressly said to be members of _H. sapiens_.
> 
> 
> 
> Hans
> 

And Hivers are said not to use sound in their communication which is 
err...unlikely. Still as you say it's moot because it was written that way.


Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2><BR>
&gt;In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk<BR>
&gt;writes:<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;ridiculous as well.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H.<BR>
&gt;&gt;erectus_<BR>
&gt;&gt;and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That<BR>
&gt;&gt;actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing<BR>
&gt;&gt;it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_<BR>
&gt;&gt;showing up as early as that.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say<BR>
&gt;I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H.<BR>
&gt;sapiens back that far.<BR>
<BR>
The book I got my information from was written in 1997, so I think it<BR>
qualifies for the term 'modern'. It's been returned to the library, so I<BR>
can't provide the name, but a web search of the tern 'archaic Homo<BR>
sapiens' provided me with 12 links, the first three of which either put<BR>
archaic Homo sapiens that far back or left the qustion open (I didn't<BR>
check the rest).<BR>
<BR>
http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/ANTD15/Bill/multi-media.html<BR>
<BR>
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#moderns<BR>
<BR>
http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html#C</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Archaic H. sapiens is an interchangeable term for H. heidelbergensis. There are clear morphological differences between H. heidelbergensis and H. sapiens (and possibly behavioural differences) but the term archaic H. sapiens has not yet died out. You sometimes also see H. heidelbergensis called H. sapiens heidelbergensis and modern humans called H. sapiens sapiens.<BR>
<BR>
Paleoanthropologists like a good fight about a name - see the current debate about H. ergaster / H. erectus for an example.<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt;But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up<BR>
&gt;&gt;tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In<BR>
&gt;&gt;the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place<BR>
&gt;&gt;_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are<BR>
&gt;descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even<BR>
&gt;more arrogant than they already are.<BR>
<BR>
Whether it would be more interesting is debatable. And such a debate would<BR>
be moot, because that's not the way it is. Both Vilani and zhodani are<BR>
expressly said to be members of _H. sapiens_.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hans<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
And Hivers are said not to use sound in their communication which is err...unlikely. Still as you say it's moot because it was written that way.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_92.23b50a36.29de2962_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404082015.00ac34e0@mail.verizon.net>
Greetings dear hearts.

ISO9000 can be described thus: -

1. Thou shalt have procedures.

2. Thou shalt follow thy procedures.

3. Thou shalt document that thou hast followed thy procedures.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (long) Re: inheritance Imperial style
In-Reply-To: <006b01c1dbe6$52c83ca0$025d8690@computer>
References: <20020403181406.EE90627A4D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404173305.02b226d0@pop.wizard.net>

Alan Bradley wrote:
> > From: laning
> > IIRC, the Albigensian Crusade was the first Crusade.
>
>Bzzt.  Thank you for playing.  The first crusade ended in 1099.  I've
>grabbed a couple of entries on the Albigensian Crusade from one of my handy
>encyclopedia CDs.
I stand corrected.  Thank you for so kindly pointing that out.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174015.02af68b0@pop.wizard.net>

>She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
>Certified?"

Oh god.  Please.  Never.  What a racket.

BTW, my wife is also a technical writer.  Small world.  :->

I'm afraid to open up the 50-page document you sent because it may put me 
hopeless behind on keeping up with the TML and two PBEM games.  But I 
promise to work on it soon.  The real problem is I will probably want to do 
far more than a trivial amount of work on it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:42:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:42:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <memo.258283@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
Question for JTK - is it too late to join in?

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:51:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:51:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017958207.9067.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174808.00a7d008@urbin.net>

At 02:10 PM 4/4/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>laning writes:
> > I like to think that the introduction of practical battle armor would
> > change this equation, and it would make a very big impact on fighting in
> > boarding actions.  Combat ranges will often be melee distance.  Opponents
> > will all be wearing at least vacc suit for armor.  The Imperial Marines
> > would have adjusted to this tactical requirement centuries ago, and a
> > one-handed battle axe intended to puncture armor would be the default melee
> >  weapon.
>There's one very important reason for the bayonet: it lets you have a melee
>weapon while carrying a real weapon (a firearm) as well.  A battleaxe doesn't
>do this.

The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF 
since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.


>A battleaxe, even with the strength of powered armor behind it, shouldn't have
>much of a chance of penetrating any significant level of armor.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:57:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:57:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174808.00a7d008@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:
> 
> The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF 
> since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.

Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a reference _since_ Lensman, though there
certainly was one in Lensman.  In any case, it hasn't been a 'staple' exactly.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:59:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (nellkyn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:59:15 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <001001c1dc2b$d13fac40$a6ecff3e@k5k9u6>

----- Original Message -----
From: Megan Robertson <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] more on the sop


> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404082015.00ac34e0@mail.verizon.net>
> Greetings dear hearts.
>
> ISO9000 can be described thus: -
>
> 1. Thou shalt have procedures.
>
> 2. Thou shalt follow thy procedures.
>
> 3. Thou shalt document that thou hast followed thy procedures.
>
> Hugs and kisses,
>
> Mexal.

Please stop it and make it go away! I've just suffered a BSI surveillance
visit today. Traveller is where I get away from the real world.

Obtrav
Would there be a standards institute in the 3I?
Would ISO 9000 appeal to the Vilani sense bureaucracy?

I for one, don't bloody care on either count.

Neil

Quality Manager by day.
TML Lurker by night.

>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:07:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:07:24 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <164.b94855a.29de3657@cs.com>

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Mark Urbin writes:


> Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.
> 
> 

Done that.

"My card..."
-------------------------------------

Ambrose Bartholomew Lovejoy
        Accountant-at-War

-------------------------------------

Doug Grimes

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Tahoma" LANG="0">Mark Urbin writes:
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Tahoma" LANG="0">
<BR>Done that.
<BR>
<BR>"My card..."
<BR>-------------------------------------
<BR>
<BR>Ambrose Bartholomew Lovejoy
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Accountant-at-War
<BR>
<BR>-------------------------------------
<BR>
<BR>Doug Grimes</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404162723.00a8aea0@urbin.net>
References: <005e01c1dc0d$850509b0$c8d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174321.02af7ac0@pop.wizard.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
 >>>
Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.
<<<

Hm, it might be fun to turn that into a sort of elite super soldier/private 
cop gig.  Combine war fighting skills with investigative skills, and only 
the best of the best are able to do the job effectively.  They get paid 
ridiculously well to go to war zones and verify that everyone from the 
generals to the supply sergeants to the front-line unit leaders really are 
doing what they report they're doing.  They have to verify not only the 
accuracy of financial reports but also compliance with all the various 
regulations affecting mercenaries, including code of war stuff.

A silly idea, but makes for nice cinematic possibilities.

Oh, speaking of which.  I saw three movies in the last two days that might 
be of interest to RPGers.  'We Were Soldiers', 'Blade 2', and 'Resident 
Evil'.  I was surprised to see that my favorite of the three was 'Resident 
Evil'.  My short reviews follow.

'We Were Soldiers'  I was both disappointed and riveted at the same 
time.  Might provide some useful background and even plot ideas to a 
referee sending military units from a peaceful garrison life to a battle 
zone.  The garrison life it shows is a period and setting I'm very familiar 
with from my own childhood, and in some ways it was very convincing, but 
overall it was definitely the Hollywood version where star power counts for 
more than character development, historical accuracy, or anything 
else.  I'm going to try the book, which I suspect is about 100 times 
better.  Mel Gibson did his best but is about fifteen years too old for his 
part.

'Blade 2'  Even more gorily repulsive than I expected.  It's a shame that 
an impressively talented actor like Wesley Snipes only seems to be able to 
make such things.  And a shame to waste the ever-interesting Kris 
Kristofferson on something so vulgar.  He's a Rhodes scholar, and he's come 
to this?  Gaming referees and players alike may find that most of the plot 
twists can be seen coming from several kilometers away.  They did do a nice 
piece of writing when they rationalized a humans working for a vampire with 
the term 'familiar'.  Which was probably in the first 'Blade' but I forgot 
it.  If you're only there looking for source material, leave after the 
first five minutes that show scary high-tech vampires cum martial artists 
infiltrating the good guys' bat cave.  This included the vampires wearing 
insectoid-looking hoods and goggles.  When they'd speak to each other, I at 
first thought that their hoods/masks were doing encryption of their speech 
so it came out like a hissing sound, and presumably their hoods also 
included earphones with built-in decryption of incoming speech.  They were 
actually speaking in a foreign language, I guess.  But 
encrypting/decrypting speech is a cool idea.  Good guys and bad guys alike 
can say whatever they want to each other right in front of their 
enemies.  Just whisper into their built-in mikes.  I should probably go 
pitch this to law enforcement and the military now and see if I can make 
some money from it.  DARPA probably wants to throw money at me.  Oh, Snipes 
"cleverly" places a tiny explosive device on the back of the head of one of 
the vampires, so that he can ensure the vampire's cooperation.  This may 
have a very small interest as source material for gaming.

'Resident Evil'  Like 'Blade', it's a shame a talented actor like Milla 
Jovovich (and some of the rest of its cast) are only getting work in a 
superficial action adventure flick.  But this one has more creativity in 
its little finger than 'Blade' can ever accumulate even if it goes on for 
another twenty sequels.  If you've played the computer game it sprang from, 
then you probably already know the major plot twists, but I've never played 
it, so they were all new to me and mostly kept me guessing until the end, 
which was itself fairly predictable.  But it wasn't trying to be 
unpredictable, and it was fine.  It comes dangerously close for awhile to 
becoming just another "small band versus undead zombies" horror flick, with 
a few nice science fiction touches, but it rose above that.  Like almost 
all "science" fiction movies and a lot of writing, genetics and mutation 
are laughable.  But in context, the disbelief suspenders weren't stretched 
too far.  'Blade' had the exact same problem, but was a bigger strain on 
the suspenders.  'Resident Evil' could have used more character 
development, too, but it did better than most films of its genre at 
this.  Pacing was quite good, and most FX were competent to really 
interesting.  If this film had come out twenty years ago, it probably would 
have been seminal.  Much like 'Alien' was.  It may yet be influential in 
some ways.  This is the only one I've seen of the recent crop of movies 
developed from games.  I'm not nominating it for any Oscar categories that 
I can think of, but it's definitely worth viewing if you've any interest at 
all in this sort of thing.  And if you're a nonhomosexual male like me, 
there's plenty of eye candy for you.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C360B@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

<snip of Laning's movie reviews>

Regarding Resident Evil, it also had some interesting anti-hijack routines
masked as bio-hazard containment.  Particularly liked the system in the hall
leading to the Red Queen :D

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <B8D22554.3750B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Because I'm too lazy to figure this out myself (yeah, right!)

I am trying to converts old TML archives into a format that the new Mailman
archiver can use.  Here the problem.  When the messages were originally
saved, they were saved as digests with most of the header stripped of each
message.  The current header looks like this:


    Date: [day of week], [day] [month] [year] [time] [offset]
    From: Poster@domain.com <poster@domain.com>
    Subject: Subject

    [body of message]

    whitespace

    next header

I need to read the date and from lines and generate a new line and insert it
as the first line in the header so that the header looks like this:


    From poster@domain.com [day of week] [month] [day] [time] [year]
    Date: [day of week], [day] [month] [year] [time] [offset]
    From: Poster@domain.com <poster@domain.com>
    Subject: Subject

    [body of message]

    whitespace

    next header

if I can get a script to do this , it looks like we can recover all the TML
and Xboat archives back to 1995 and post them to the web.

Thanks, Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22554.3750B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8D22554.3750B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405100301.A22271@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> I need to read the date and from lines and generate a new line and insert it
> as the first line in the header so that the header looks like this:
> 
>     From poster@domain.com [day of week] [month] [day] [time] [year]
>     Date: [day of week], [day] [month] [year] [time] [offset]
>     From: Poster@domain.com <poster@domain.com>
[...]
> if I can get a script to do this , it looks like we can recover all the TML
> and Xboat archives back to 1995 and post them to the web.

What language would you like the script written in?  I should be able
to do it in Perl relatively easily, if that suits.  The only
difficulty might arise if the original headers don't *exactly* conform
to the format described.

If you send me a 100k or so sample of the archives, I will write a
script and test it out on the sample.  That way, I can check whether
any of the original headers deviate by lacking a comma in the date, or
a strangely formatted email address, or something.  I should have
a script that basically works by tomorrow.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204050006.DJD04253@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a 
>staple of SF since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.
>

Maybe I should re-read Triplanetary, and run a campaign with 
the big gun cruisers like the Chicago.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204050009.DJD04543@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

If I could have an example of both files, I'm sure I could 
write something, but it would be a Windows app.

I do this sort of thing all day long, mostly to pile things 
from spreadsheets and word documents into tables in Oracle.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <20020405100301.A22271@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B8D22C91.37518%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 4:03 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> What language would you like the script written in?  I should be able
> to do it in Perl relatively easily, if that suits.  The only
> difficulty might arise if the original headers don't *exactly* conform
> to the format described.
> 
> If you send me a 100k or so sample of the archives, I will write a
> script and test it out on the sample.  That way, I can check whether
> any of the original headers deviate by lacking a comma in the date, or
> a strangely formatted email address, or something.  I should have
> a script that basically works by tomorrow.

SAMPLE FOLLOWS:

####################################
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #999
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
Errors-To: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
Precedence: bulk


Traveller-digest       Monday, August 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 999



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: HEPlar lives!
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
OT but interesting Keith Bro. note
Re: Hudson-class Lander (GTL9)
Re: Low ship weight
Re: Grav deck plates.
Re: Low ship weight (and Grav Plates too)
Starship Combat Tweak
Re: Bureaucrats
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #998
Re: RE Squad Leader LONG
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Grav deck plates.
Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)
Off topic - Insulting Leonard
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)
Re: Slings and Outrageous Fortunes of War
Re: Andre Norton Followups...
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Cloning (was Hard Science)
BITS and delays in response
Re: The Heritage Trilogy
Re Slings

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: HEPlar lives!

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Well, how about "large" deep holes? :-)

As long as by 'large deep holes' you mean 'wider than it is deep' sure.  A
typical free trader would probably make a crater some 20-30m deep and
50-100m across.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:18:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Tom writes:

> > *cough*.  If you really want people toasting small cities with their
> > engines, go for it.  HEPlaR has a power output of roughly 15 megawatts
> > per  newton of thrust -- your average free trader, at something like 20
> > million  newtons thrust, generates the equiva
> > lent of a 50 kiloton nuclear weapon every second...
> 
> Just curious, but isn't this why most downports have landing pads separated
>  from living quarters?  Some of them with high earthwork walls? ...or am I
>  missing the point?

Yah, you're missing the point.  You have the equivalent of a strategic
nuclear weapon going off every time a ship lands or takes off, this will
destroy the landing field in a single landing (in fact, it will also tend to
destroy the ship) and destroy the entire port in short order.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:15:54 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: OT but interesting Keith Bro. note

Just thumbing through Cinescape magazine and noticed an article about a
new Dune novel. It's being written by Brian Herbert (son of Frank) and
Kevin J. Keith. Since this book (actually first of a trilogy) is a
prequel to the classics, it might have some further insight into the
classic Dunes Imperial politics, maybe fodder for 3I politics?
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:23:37 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hudson-class Lander (GTL9)

>> OK, OK, we'll play "Flight of the Valkyries" while we approach, "Will ye
>no
>> come back again" after we land.
>>
>
>Awwww, not "Flight"  It's been done to death, can't we have something
>original?


Isn't that *Ride* of the Valkyries?

Although I seem to remember that the direct translation is "The Valkyries"
so it might well be a cross-pond translation thing.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:29:09 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Low ship weight

>I read somewhere (I think it was an issue of Challenge) that if cargoes of
>greater than standard density (ie 1 ton per cubic meter) were carried, the
>ships performance should be re-calculated if it was likely to take the
ships
>mass over 15 tons per cubic meter.


Yep.

But then, I tend to recalculate the ship's performance every time we change
the cargo load, so I'm more twisted than most players.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:31:39 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Grav deck plates.

>But if you are along a wall (or the floor or ceiling) you'll *also*
>stay right there unless some force moves you.


Under AG you're pushing against the floor with enough force to accelerate
you upward at 1 gee, at least momentarily. Unless you can adjust that force
perfectly to match the decrease in AG (which you probably can't if it's
instantaneous and comes without warning) then you'll push yourself off.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:35:40 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Low ship weight (and Grav Plates too)

>Got me thinking:  Is 20 tonnes per displacement ton the maximum deck
>loading?


Even if it is then it's possible to build a specialised cradle to spread the
weight of particularly heavy cargoes. The maximum deck pressure wouldn't be
much of a problem for properly packaged and loaded freight, but it could be
if the players are trying to recover a relic grav tank or something....


>On a vaguely related thread, suppose you drop a huge cargo container onto
>you deck plate from a height of a few metres.  How much damage would it do?
>Would it screw up the grav plate?  (I ask purely from interest of course,
my
>character would never actually have done such a thing to her ship...)


Well, taking current ships and aircraft as a basis, that's would utterly
knacker your floor, probably requiring expensive repairs and maybe even
making a hole. A couple of metres is a long way to fall under 1g. The grav
plate? Well, I'd say that's pretty much up to the GM.


NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:31:26 -0500
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Starship Combat Tweak

First, I want to thank everyone who answered my Starship Combat
question.  All of you really made me think about the nature of starship
combat at very close ranges.  There were several thoughts that I
probably would not have come up with on my own (in fact, I know I
wouldn't have thought in some directions at all).

Thanks.

You've been a big help to my game.

I LOVE this freaking list.



RANGE MODS:

Anyway, I've simplified the thoughts, and I've come up with a simple
addition to CT starship combat.

I'm just adding two different range modifiers to the to hit throw.
These were derived from your comments and the two range modifiers
already printed in the CT rules.

Range to target 5,000 km or closer?     +2 DM

Range to target 2,000 km or closer?      +5 DM



HEX/RANGE BAND SIZE:

For the close ranges in this boarding scenario, I've changed the
hex/range band size to 1,000 km each.



LENGTH OF ROUND:

To coincide with the internal combat going on inside the ships, I'm
changing the starship combat round for this scenario to a 6 second
round--just like the personal combat round I'm using.

I'll probably run 3-5 rounds inside the ship, then 3-5 rounds outside,
keeping everything constant.



ROF:

Looking at T4's Starships book (imagine that!  I used it!), I see that
most lasers on small scale ships have an ROF of 10 (for the 10 minute T4
combat round).  With extra power, those all can easily be boosted to 100
ROF.

Doing the required math, those weapons will fire exactly once per 6
seconds (with the ROF 100 figure).

That's perfect.  In this very close range scenario I have, these two
ships carving away at each other should turn out to be a meatgrinder of
an encounter.

That's exactly what I want.

Thanks again, to all.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:37:30 -0700
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Bureaucrats

Of course, with your average group of PCs, this will last for about five
minutes before someone decides to show the offending bureacrat his "special
authorization", aka the business end of a firearm...



- --------------
Kelly St.Clair   "At last we will reveal our pants to the Jedi.  At last we
kellys@efn.org    will have revenge."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:40:52 -0700
From: "Mike Linsenmayer" <mlinsenmayer@symantec.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #998

Can someone send me a e-mail if they see this in the post...
Still having problems posting....
mlinsenmayer@symantec.com

I have some new artwork.. not good as Jesses though  ;)

http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace/art/picture-b.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:43:15 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: RE Squad Leader LONG

>>Note that lasers, can paint targets for guided munitions at darn near any
>>range in SL terms. (Unless you've got 16 boards stuck end to end. <grin>)
>
> Thus, if a squad can keep a LOS on a target, that target
> could be hit almost all the time at TL 9 (roll 11- on 2D?).


35 hits out of 36 with laser-guided munitions?

Are you American, by any chance? <g>

NB
- --
(Before y'all flame me - I'm kidding...)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:44:44 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

>> Just curious, but isn't this why most downports have landing pads
separated
>>  from living quarters?  Some of them with high earthwork walls? ...or am
I
>>  missing the point?
>
>Yah, you're missing the point.  You have the equivalent of a strategic
nuclear weapon going off every time a ship lands or takes off, this will
destroy the landing field in a single landing (in fact, it will also tend to
destroy the ship) and destroy the entire port in short order.


Indeed.

Which is why (okay, I use the TNE rules) I assume ships take off under
contra-grav (air bouyancy) and occasioanl low-thrust puffs from the engines
for directional control.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:52:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Nick Bradbeer writes:
 
> Indeed.
> 
> Which is why (okay, I use the TNE rules) I assume ships take off under
> contra-grav (air bouyancy) and occasioanl low-thrust puffs from the engines
> for directional control.

Oh, certainly, as long as you have ships with both CG and HEPlaR, and only
use HEPlaR in space, you're fine -- however, standard designs frequently
don't have contragravity.  HEPlaR is a fast way to commit suicide in any
sort of atmosphere, or near the ground.  Incidentally, contragravity is
capable of doing directional control without any use of thrust anyway.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:57:23 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

>Oh, certainly, as long as you have ships with both CG and HEPlaR, and only
use HEPlaR in space, you're fine -- however, standard designs frequently
don't have contragravity.  HEPlaR is a fast way to commit suicide in any
sort of atmosphere, or near the ground.  Incidentally, contragravity is
capable of doing directional control without any use of thrust anyway.


Well, every single ship in Brilliant Lances (that's all the classic designs)
has contra grav, except for the Lab Ship, Donosev, Chrysanthemum and Aurora.
All those four are unstreamlined, and thus not atmosphere-capable.


I thought CG could only change the magnitude of your gravitational vector
(ie reducing it by up to two orders of magnitude), not affect the direction
of it. If it can affect the vector's direction, has it not just become a
thruster plate?

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:07:52 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Grav deck plates.

At 01:03 AM 8/23/99 -0800, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
> > That was my solution in a (forgive me, I have sinned... I was young,
> > naive...) Star Trek game once.  After the bad guys transported to our
> > bridge.  Hold on to the console, and just flip the AG on and off.... as
> > everyone floats off the deck and then crashes back down.
>
>Not-so-silly question.
>
>Why would they "float off the deck"?
>
>Seriously, this is *the* single biggest error in damn near every movie,
>TV program and even *story* that deals with zero-g.
>
>If you are in the middle of a compartment in zero g, you'll stay there
>unless some force pulls or pushes you out of that location.
>
>But if you are along a wall (or the floor or ceiling) you'll *also*
>stay right there unless some force moves you.
>
>Removing gravity *won't* make you "float up". But your muscles mighgt
>push you off gently.

Well, at that particular moment, the bad guys (can't remember who they were
now...Cardassians maybe...)  had just transported aboard and were in the
process of running around the bridge disarming the crew, shouting at
people, and generally swaggering a lot (on second thought, maybe they were
Klingons...).  It seemed to me that chances were good that most of them
were in the process of taking a step as the gravity shut off, and would
thus be flung away from the floor.  Even those that were standing perfectly
still, would still automatically shift their weight when the gravity was
released and be unable to regain balance quickly enough to avoid falling.

IMHO, this would certainly not work against any Traveller combatants, who
are routinely trained for Zero-G operations, but remember that these were
_Star_Trek_ villains... And at least until Star Trek 6, there's been almost
no evidence that anyone in that world could fight in Zero-G.  Well, Spock
maybe....

           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
                          defend to the death your right to say it."
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
                                           -- Albert Einstein
for PGP public-key and
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:15:00 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)

Tascelt@aol.com posted:
>
>Damn it Jesse!!  Tim and I have been suggesting shirts to you for years and

>NOW your're going to do it?
>
>TAS

Ah, but *I* made a critical success roll on my Sucking Up skill.

;-)

David

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:01:45 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Off topic - Insulting Leonard

Phil Kitching wrote:

>Interesting.
>
>I thought asterisks represent bold or emphasis.
>
>Also that underscores represent underlining, which represents italics.

*Bold*

_Underline_

/Italic/

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Nick Bradbeer writes:
 
> I thought CG could only change the magnitude of your gravitational vector
> (ie reducing it by up to two orders of magnitude), not affect the direction
> of it. If it can affect the vector's direction, has it not just become a
> thruster plate?

Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only be
used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
local force of gravity.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:44:44 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

>> I thought CG could only change the magnitude of your gravitational vector
>> (ie reducing it by up to two orders of magnitude), not affect the
direction
>> of it. If it can affect the vector's direction, has it not just become a
>> thruster plate?
>
>Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only be
used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
local force of gravity.



Where does it say this? I only have access to CT and TNE canon.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:52:27 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)

Replying late to this thread, but I'd _dearly_ love to see:

 Scout base on Gas Giant Moon
 Starport Cover Outtake
 Empress Marava in port
 Highport with Free Trader



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:26:30 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Slings and Outrageous Fortunes of War

>Actually, it sounds more like a human powered trebuchet...


Yes, but they did exist..
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:17:52 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Andre Norton Followups...

>Also, you can go *nuts* trying to tie Norton's books together. I
>believe that Catseye (or one of the other books dealing with Forerunner
>artifacts) has a passing reference to the Caverns of Arzor. Which ties
>that book/series to the Hosteen Storm books. Only problem is, in the
>latter series, Earth has been rendered uninhabitable. Yet I can show
>links equally good to books like The Last Planet. :-)

The Last Planet was the ***first*** real book I ever read, as well as the
first novel and first science fiction book.  I've always imagined that the
books take place against a multi-millennium long background.  Humans
discover spaceflight by time mining the secret of spacetravel from Foreunner
technology. They start exploring space and colonizing. Eventually they meet
other races and eventually supplant them almost entirely. Over the centuries
the location of Earth is entirely forgotten, though the legend lives on.

If you figure that the stories are generally separated by centuries it's
much easier to accept the inconsistancie.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:41:31 -0700
From: Edward Swatschek <edjs@bitslayer.net>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

At 11:37 99/08/23 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
>gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only
>be used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
>local force of gravity.

This depends on the game system being used.  In TNE/FF&S, contragravity
simply reduced the gravitational vector over a specific volume by 99%.  In
an atmosphere, this might make the ship neutrally or positively buoyant,
but no thrust is involved - that would be provided by HEPlaR or some other
engine.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:05:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Edward Swatschek writes:

> This depends on the game system being used.  In TNE/FF&S, contragravity
> simply reduced the gravitational vector over a specific volume by 99%.  In
> an atmosphere, this might make the ship neutrally or positively buoyant,
> but no thrust is involved - that would be provided by HEPlaR or some other
> engine.
 
Um...wrong ;)  It provided 10-20% of gravitational force sideways in
TNE/FF&S.  In Striker it could provide any amount of sideways force.  I
don't know about T4 or MT.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:10:22 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Edward Swatschek wrote:
> 
> At 11:37 99/08/23 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> >Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
> >gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only
> >be used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
> >local force of gravity.
> 
> This depends on the game system being used.  In TNE/FF&S, contragravity
> simply reduced the gravitational vector over a specific volume by 99%.  In
> an atmosphere, this might make the ship neutrally or positively buoyant,
> but no thrust is involved - that would be provided by HEPlaR or some other
> engine.

In FF&S2, page 18 (gravitic vehicle design sequence):  "Most of the
force is directed parallel to the gravity field (straight up and down),
but a fraction of the lift is available to provide thrust."

This sentence is repeated almost verbatim on page 65, dealing with
thrust agencies.

Under "Reactionless Thrusters" (also page 65, FF&S2):
"...'Contragravity' at earlier tech levels can only interact with the
local gravitational field (and is hence limited to use near a planetary
surface)...."

Hope this helps....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:28:37 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com>
Subject: Re: Cloning (was Hard Science)

> Tom wrote:
> > Perhaps this is one of the reasons that cloning never took off big in the
> > 3I, Ziru Sirka, or Rule of Man.  Surely the nobility in all three Imperiums
> > wouldn't want an emperor/emperess to live forever even in cloned form.  The
> > Moot would never stand for it.  OTOH there were alot of emperors in the 3I
> > that were suceeded by assassination.  Maybe they were looking in to the
> > forbidden(?) science of cloning?
> 
> Well, other than Cleon the Mad, and Strephon the Clone, the rest of the
> Emperors who died by 'right of assasination' were all Barracks Emperors during
> the Civil War. They all died not for experimenting with cloning, but
> experimenting with crowning themselves Emperor.;-)

You're forgetting the Empress that Cleon The Not Wrapped Too Tight whacked.
<grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
                                                     Science-Fiction
Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:15:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS and delays in response

Hi all,

DISCLAIMER - Not an official statement on behalf of BITS, but an
explanation:

Some of you writing to us by email may have seen some delay in response
from BITS. Firstly, we aren't ignoring you! BITS is run by volunteers, and
at the moment we are pulling together the material for release at GenCon UK
99, preparing to run the trade stand, 3 RPGA tournaments and a number of
demonstrations, and dealing with real life(tm) (imminent fatherhood for
some people, major work projects etc). We only have a small active CORE
<grin> which means that time is being juggled.

At present, we have four books in the last stages of preparation (you've
seen 3 advertised here, ACQ being the fourth) plus three tournaments (which
require nearly the same effort), and we're also doing the usual newsletter,
2nd hand material and website...

Hopefully, once GenCon is out of the way things will calm down, and we'll
go through the non-urgent mails. if you need to contact someone at BITS
(bits@bits.org.uk) urgently, mark your subject line URGENT, or copy me (for
example). I hope to see some of you in the flesh at GenCon UK 99, maybe for
a drink at the bar, or a game at the stand or the demo area. FWIW we are
actually in two locations this year - in the trade hall, and running demos
in the balcony above (GURPS Traveller & T4 as the standards, but I'm sure
we'll get volunteers for CT, MT and TNE as ever). As ever, we're happy for
anyone who wants to volunteer to try their hand at running a game/demo.

All the best,

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
                       MiB - Marines in Battledress
   "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:22:13 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: The Heritage Trilogy

At 06:01 AM 8/23/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I started with the second one, Luna Marine. It's definitely a lot less
>jingoistic than the first, concentrating less on the UN as an evil empire
>and more on the ramifications of the "Hunters of Dawn". The "Hunters of
>Dawn" are dominate cultures that go around killing off lower tech cultures
>before they evolve enough technology to kill them. A very cool thought for a
>Traveller campaign.

Wasn't that the premise of Weber's Mutineer Moon/Armageddon inheritance
series as well?

           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
                          defend to the death your right to say it."
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
                                           -- Albert Einstein
for PGP public-key and
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:28:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Slings

>William F. Hostman wrote:
>>
>> A staff sling is essentially a hand sling on a 2m pole... and is not
>> twirled, but used exactly like an atlatl, only much easier to do
>> successfully.
>
>Actually, it sounds more like a human powered trebuchet...
>
Trebuchets keep a cup fixed to the end of the arm, and the cup remains open.

Staff slings: the sling's cup is attached by two lines (3-4 feet long is
good). One of these is fixed to the pole near the end. The other string is
terminated in a loop small enough not to fall past the first one's
fixation, but loose enough to fall off if you point the tip down. The start
position is with the staff parrallel tothe deck tip behind you, with a
loaded pocket.Generally, you then (rapidly) bring forward the staff til it
is roughly 45 degrees from parallel in front of you. The second loop lets
go normally about when you stop the swing, but the cup is lagging. When the
string lets go, several things happen, including putting a spin on the
projectile, converting that rotational velocity into linear velocity, and
also opening up the cup to actually let the projectile go.

The thing can be used while kneeling (I've done it). In a Short trench, two
guys could work it easily.

Oh, and just for reference, a golf ball can occasionally be sent  over 200
m in flat terrain by a practiced stafslinger.

William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click
interface!"
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-
533
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis
http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis    ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #999
**********************************

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--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <200204050028.DJF00683@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I expect that there will be major revisions, and additions.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:29:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:29:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204050009.DJD04543@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 4:09 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> If I could have an example of both files, I'm sure I could
> write something, but it would be a Windows app.
> 

Repeat after me

windows = hell
Bill Gates = anitchrist

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bryn Monnery)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <182.62a974a.29dca666@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405015316.02b11020@pop.mail.yahoo.com>

At 13:39 03/04/02 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 02/04/02 22:58:51 GMT Daylight Time, 
>ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:
>
>
>>TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to 
>>He4.  One
>>assumes the neutron problems have been solved.
>
>
>Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing 
>"up" to He4 :)

Protium - Protium fusion (Protium = Hydrogen-1, Deuterium = Hydrogen-2, 
Tritium = Hydgrogen-3)

Bryn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:06:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:06:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod says that Microsoft and Bill Gates are evil
<snip>

Yes, but that's what my customers use.
I used to have my head in the sand, and only worked on OS/2 
and Solaris machines.

I was unemployed for quite a while.

Then, I started chanting

By the beans of Java
I set my mind in motion...

and did the Windows dance.  And said, "I like making Larry 
Ellison rich.  Everyone buy Oracle now."

Let's not mention that I like Smalltalk, Unix, and DB/2.

ObTrav:  There has to be a similar monopoly in Imperial 
space, and everyone would buy into it, even if it didn't work 
very well.  There have to be "standards", you know.  And it 
wouldn't be the best system, or language, or database, etc. 
It would be the one that had the most ruthless marketing.  
And no Imperial law would stop it.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
In-Reply-To: <3CAA76E1.BA4A2BC6@premier.net>
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>
 <p04330105b8d0233486e4@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA76E1.BA4A2BC6@premier.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b8d2ab0aa6d7@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:28 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
>"David P. Summers" wrote:
>>
>>  At 7:41 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
>>  >"David P. Summers" wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >>  In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
>>  >>  tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
>>  >>  arrays.....
>>  >
>>  >Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
>>  >masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....
>>
>>  But the tags would be unforgeable based on the penguins DNA!  Clearly
>>  this would be justified based on the threat that penguins pose.  (How
>>  could the Imperium  claim to control their territory if penguins roam
>>  free?)
>
>Then the penguins merely graft a patch of non-penguin-waterfowl skin and
>feathers to the tag attachment point (ideally waterfowl generally
>engaged as tramp freighters or system defense birds), change the tag
>code to suit the new DNA and proceed on their marauding ways.... ;-)
>
>The struggle between measure and countermeasure is a never-ending one,
>as neither side is likely to gain lasting superiority.

But the Imperium has so many ships that they could afford to have one 
sitting anyplace a penguin might threaten the public safety!
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMELMDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Bill doesn't rate higher than apostate or a false profit, tops

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

on 4/4/02 4:09 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> If I could have an example of both files, I'm sure I could
> write something, but it would be a Windows app.
>

Repeat after me

windows = hell
Bill Gates = anitchrist

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEELNDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Must be the company that makes the Anti-Hijacking software for CT. Or
whoever made fighter craft so impotent.

I want a PA barbette on my Mk V fighter! waaaah

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

ObTrav:  There has to be a similar monopoly in Imperial
space, and everyone would buy into it, even if it didn't work
very well.  There have to be "standards", you know.  And it
wouldn't be the best system, or language, or database, etc.
It would be the one that had the most ruthless marketing.
And no Imperial law would stop it.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 18:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr  4 18:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204051011470.16403-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Tod:

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Repeat after me
>
> windows = hell
> Bill Gates = anitchrist

 Ah a man with similiar sentiments.

"Windows is not the answer. It is the problem. The answer is NO!"

"Window, just say NO!!"

 From your friendly Biased Commodore only user. <VBG>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 18:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr  4 18:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
References: <200204041157.DIF02066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404185037.009f1170@mindspring.com>

At 05:04 PM 4/4/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Classic Traveller says the default blade skill that Marines cascade to is 
>Bayonet.  For reasons of tradition, esprit de corps, inspiring confidence 
>in troops, and instilling the proper spirit of attack.  Same reasons that 
>Marc Miller had to suffer through bayonet drills when he was in the Army 
>even though the widespread opinion of the day was that bayonet training is 
>obsolete.

Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while 
desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to 
perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 19:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 19:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174808.00a7d008@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404215235.01f48c40@192.168.0.1>

At 02:56 PM 4/4/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Mark Urbin writes:
> >
> > The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF
> > since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.
>
>Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a reference _since_ Lensman, though 
>there
>certainly was one in Lensman.  In any case, it hasn't been a 'staple' exactly.

Ok, I stand corrected.  It's been around since Lensmen, and it *should* be 
a staple of SF. :-)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 19:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 19:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404185037.009f1170@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 6:52 PM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while
> desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to
> perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.
> 

In point of fact, the bayonet is more of a hazard to the soldier than an
aide.  During the last war for which we have statistics (Vietnam), more
soldiers injured themselves with bayonets than were injured by enemy
bayonets.  This is also true of WWII.

Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary weapon of the
infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  number of wounds caused by
bayonets was extremely small.

The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed civilians.  It has little or
no military application, contrary to popular mythos.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 19:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr  4 19:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
References: <200204041157.DIF02066@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020404185037.009f1170@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c1dc54$e81469a0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Berry" <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while
> desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to
> perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.

Tell that to the British Para's...

The don't seem to feel a war is a war until they have done at least one
Bayonet Charge...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <20020405003207.32532279F6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CAD22FC.313506AE@earthlink.net>

Walt Smith posted:
> 
> They had a lot of factors working against them.  Nothing
> inside the ship was any kind of secureable except the computer
> room, since no one was supposed to be aboard except
> triple-cleared company employees.  They had a traitor in their
> midst, and a secret agenda going on from their corporate masters.
> A small group of wage-slave technicians running a cargo ship
> were way out of their league, and had an appropriate casualty
> rate.

And how would you rate the Colonial Marine unit in "Aliens"?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>

I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler
had a Derringer attached to some kind of mechanical
"holster". The device was worn somehow on the forearm
and pushed the gun into the hand.

Can anyone tell me what this device was and where
I could find details on it?


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404231607.01f78e88@192.168.0.1>

At 10:13 PM 4/4/2002 -0600, David Smart wrote:
>I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler
>had a Derringer attached to some kind of mechanical
>"holster". The device was worn somehow on the forearm
>and pushed the gun into the hand.
>Can anyone tell me what this device was and where
>I could find details on it?

Secret Service Agent James West (Wild Wild West TV show) had one too.
They loved gadgets on that show.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404231607.01f78e88@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000501c1dc5d$168ea180$2f7de40c@loki>

At 10:13 PM 4/4/2002 -0600, David Smart wrote:
>I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler

All I found are references to 'spring-loaded arm rigs' and a lot of fan
fiction to the Magnificent Seven in my google search.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B8D28F8B.37603%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405024811.02b7a0e0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon says:
>Makes me think that a lot of navigators will get their
>training doing Imperial x-boat, and then change career to fly
>for a private broker or a merchant line that contracts to
>brokers.

Nice touch it.  I'll use it.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Navigator skill affecting jump duration & accuracy (was Re:
 economic crash)
In-Reply-To: <002d01c1dbf2$1d1b9500$52200050@matt>
References: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405024958.02b7bec0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon suggested a rule for dicing precise jump duration in plus or 
minus hours from the nominal of precisely seven days.

My memory of the 'Starship Operators Manual' from DGP isn't detailed 
enough, but they had rules on this that I really liked.  It started to give 
Navigation skill a useful purpose besides making sure somebody aboard had 
at least one level of it.  Sadly, my copy of SOP is among my trove of 
mislaid Favorite Traveller References that _still_ evades detection.  If 
only I could offer the other inanimate objects in my house a bounty for 
dropping a dime on the missing trove.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C360B@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405025738.02b7da30@pop.wizard.net>

At 03:34 PM 4/4/02 -0800, you wrote:
><snip of Laning's movie reviews>
>
>Regarding Resident Evil, it also had some interesting anti-hijack routines
>masked as bio-hazard containment.  Particularly liked the system in the hall
>leading to the Red Queen :D
>
>Jesse

Yeah, that was medieval.  In an extremely high tech way.  I think 'Resident 
Evil' has quite a bit of useful source material for RPGs, but I didn't want 
to get into spoilers.

Oh.  Jesse, my wife and I both loved the Britannia site, thanks.  The 
interior shots are all _perfect_ for use to illustrate a Traveller yacht 
(well, maybe not the bridge interior, lol).  I am completely unskilled at 
doing such things but I thought it would be great to take the ones with 
portholes and show stars or a planet from low orbit or something outside.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 00:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Fri Apr  5 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c1dc7a$655e8a60$f000a8c0@imogen>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor
> training.

I used to work a a company that tried for (and got) ISO 9000/9001
certification: it was easy-peasy!

1) Have a documented procedure for everything
2) Make sure all staff know where the latest  versions  of  those
   documents are (ie. where on the PC server)

The fact that we didn't actually follow those  procedures  (close
scrutiny would have revealed they were unworkable anyhow)  didn't
seem to matter.

Its just a case of understanding the game.



> Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.
> 
> "You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections &
> standards"

Make a "saving throw" against Admin skill to understand the  game
and avoid any significant impediments.  In MT terms ...



    To comply with local business standards.
    Routine, Admin and EDU, 1 hour (safe)

    Referee: If not familiar with local customs (ie. offworlders)
             then  increase  difficulty  to  Difficult.   Trading
             is limited until this task is passed successfully.




Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 00:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 00:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>

Any of you guys know Ruby?
http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/index.html

A guy I respect _very_ much is presently raving about it.
http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2001/10/25/ruby.html

It might as well be Sanskrit to me, I haven't looked at it at all.  But if 
Colin likes it, I like it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 00:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 00:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMELMDJAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>

BillGatus of Borg.  Bah.  I shake my head, bereft of words.

Anyway.  Back when I was doing tech support on the phones for AOL, I talked 
a guy about three times who would always pepper his conversation with how 
little respect he had for Gates, and "I knew that guy back when he went 
from user group to user group selling his stuff out of the back of a 
station wagon."  It was amusing as hell, though I didn't let that guy know 
I thought so or we would have got way off topic for a long time.  I hope 
you get a laugh out of that one.

ObTrav:  In the early 1100s, is there anyone who occupies a position 
analogous to Bill Gates in our own society today?  In terms of being 
notoriously rich and geeky and merciless and rich and reviled and admired 
and rich and ubiquitous and rich and not even Ministry of Justice bullets 
can stop him.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 04:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 04:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204051219.DKC00217@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary 
>weapon of the infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  
>number of wounds caused by bayonets was extremely small.
>

Bayonets were used successfully in the Falklands.

Also, if I find someone at the end of my bayonet, it's 
unlikely that they'll be "wounded".  It's equally unlikely 
that they'll make it to the aid station.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 04:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Fri Apr  5 04:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCMEEHDOAA.andy@exeus.com>

Try

	http://www.cia.gov/spy_fi/item21.html

and

	http://home.earthlink.net/~backslash/

They're called Sleeveguns and cost $295.

Andy Brick
andy@exeus.com
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.344 / Virus Database: 191 - Release Date: 02/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 04:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr  5 04:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B6C@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
> Sent: 05 April 2002 13:20
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
> 
> 
> Tod Glenn says
> >Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary 
> >weapon of the infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  
> >number of wounds caused by bayonets was extremely small.
> >
> 
> Bayonets were used successfully in the Falklands.

True, but the Bayonet Charge(s?) in the Falklands produced few
casualties from bayonet wounds. The principal aim of a bayonet charge is
to cause the flight or surrender of the defenders of a position. One of
the Argentinians on the receiveing end of the charge recounted in a
documentary some years later that as a 19 year old conscript the sight
of 40 or so strapping Para's charging at him with fixed bayonets,
screaming as they came, filled him with such terror that he couldn't
move... he was fixated on the fact that those guys coming at him wanted
to stick whacking great holes in him, up close and personal. As soon as
the initial terror subsided he (and now I can't recall exactly which)
either threw down his weapon and ran for his life, or threw down his
weapon and surrendered.

To quote Corporal Jones in Dad's Army... "Cold Steel, Sir. They don't
like it up 'em!"

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 05:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Fri Apr  5 05:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
References: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DAV33JYS74UiXodol1500008c87@hotmail.com>

Christian in Action has a picture of the sleeve gun assembly used by Bob
Conrad in Thee Wild, Wild West at

http://www.cia.gov/spy_fi/item21.html

The man who made the original prop was (is?) selling them to people sans
firearm.  His website at sleevegun.com is now under construction, but you
can see Google's cache of his site at

http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:_T42pJBhY0UC:sleevegun.com/+sleevegun&h
l=en&ie=UTF8

This site includes a picture of an arm rig.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com

> I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler
> had a Derringer attached to some kind of mechanical
> "holster". The device was worn somehow on the forearm
> and pushed the gun into the hand.
>
> Can anyone tell me what this device was and where
> I could find details on it?
>
>
> David
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 05:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr  5 05:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405134530.5456.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> Repeat after me
> 
> windows = hell
> Bill Gates = anitchrist

Although my Dante is rusty and my personal sentiments
don't agree...

"Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."

To Paraphrase...

"Better to trust your livlihood to Billy Bob's Window
World than to not make any living at all."

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 06:42:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri Apr  5 06:42:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
References: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt> <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se> <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt> <5.1.0.14.2.20020402201259.009ec960@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CADB846.8070706@gmx.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

 > At 07:40 PM 4/2/02 +0200, you wrote:
 >
 >> Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
 >> food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
 >> predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
 >> for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world
 >> under
 >> the ice.
 >
 >
 > Jedi Jellyfish Under The Ice!  I love it!
 >
 >
Yes...but they're probably easy meat for the Imperial Penguin Corps.

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump. 
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <F120FrbDLuPOuIGGsMq000028cf@hotmail.com>

From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>

     "I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler had a Derringer 
attached to some kind of mechanical "holster". The device was worn somehow 
on the forearm and pushed the gun into the hand."

     "Can anyone tell me what this device was and where I could find details 
on it?"


Mr. Smart,

     My admittedly brief Google search turned up little more than a lot of 
"Magnificent Seven" fan-fics.  Fiddling with the search words should bear 
fruit however.
     Another pop culture reference for such a device cn be found in 
Harrison's "Deathworld" trilogy.  The Pyrrhans(sp) are outfitted with a 
contraption that slams a very large, hair-triggered, pistol into their fists 
at the slightest twitch.  The hero, Jason din Alt mentions how learning to 
use the damn thing nearly breaks his hand.
     I've also seen gizmos tucked up one's sleeve that deliver playing 
cards.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <200204051219.DKC00217@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D2FF19.37640%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 4:19 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Bayonets were used successfully in the Falklands.

Define 'successfully'.  How many casualties were produced by bayonets?
> 
> Also, if I find someone at the end of my bayonet, it's
> unlikely that they'll be "wounded".  It's equally unlikely
> that they'll make it to the aid station.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3611@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Just to set things straight, it was John Groth that recommended the
Brittania site [tips Diet Pepsit to John <'cause it's too early for beer ;)
>]
Jesse

<snip>
Oh.  Jesse, my wife and I both loved the Britannia site, thanks.  The 
interior shots are all _perfect_ for use to illustrate a Traveller yacht 
(well, maybe not the bridge interior, lol).  I am completely unskilled at 
doing such things but I thought it would be great to take the ones with 
portholes and show stars or a planet from low orbit or something outside.

--Laning

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3cadc22c.4909163@post.demon.co.uk>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:

>The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed civilians.  It has little =
or
>no military application, contrary to popular mythos.

... I wouldn't go that far...  Firstly, bayonets were primarily a
_defensive_ weapon:  they stopped infantry being overrun and trampled
by cavalry.  ("Form square!")

Secondly, they *could* be the means by which infantry could turn an
indecisive firefight into a crushing rout of the enemy.
Unfortunately, bayonet charges like this only really worked if the
enemy was already weak and disorganised.  Against untrained native
levies in colonial warfare, bayonets were far more effective than
muskets.  They used less ammunition, too...  Unfortunately, that
tended to give those armies involved in colonial warfare an
over-inflated view of the benefits of the bayonet, which would be
disastrous once they faced the firepower of Western armies on a modern
battlefield.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <20020405134530.5456.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405074625.009ee8d0@mindspring.com>

At 05:45 AM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:

>Although my Dante is rusty and my personal sentiments
>don't agree...
>
>"Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."

That's Milton, from "Paradise Lost."

Dante's best line came from The Inferno... the inscription on the gates of 
Hell.

"I AM THE WAY INTO THE CITY OF WOE
I AM THE WAY TO A FORSAKEN PEOPLE
I AM THE WAY INTO ETERNAL SORROW

SACRED JUSTICE MOVED MY ARCHITECT
I WAS RAISED THERE BY DIVINE OMNIPOTENCE
PRIMORDIAL LOVE AND ULTIMATE INTELLECT.

ONLY THOSE ELEMENTS TIME CANNOT WEAR
WERE MADE BEFORE ME, AND BEYOND TIME I STAND.
ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."

I want that on the door to my gaming room.. :)

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <F120FrbDLuPOuIGGsMq000028cf@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405160321.61448.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>      Another pop culture reference for such a device
> cn be found in 
> Harrison's "Deathworld" trilogy.  The Pyrrhans(sp)
> are outfitted with a 
> contraption that slams a very large, hair-triggered,
> pistol into their fists 
> at the slightest twitch.  The hero, Jason din Alt
> mentions how learning to 
> use the damn thing nearly breaks his hand.

My favorite of this type is from the Alan Cole/Chris
Bunch _Sten_ series.  (Admittedly light scifi and
light reading, but as a diversion, I enjoyed it.) 

In any case, the protagonist, Sten, has a sheath
biologically implanted in his forearm.  The weapon is
grown crystals and form fitted to his hand.  The blade
tapers to molecular thickness.  A simple twitch and
the blade slides into his palm ready for use.

(Yes, I can hear the suspenders snapping/shattering,
but I did warn you that it was light scifi)

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405074625.009ee8d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020405161906.71131.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> That's Milton, from "Paradise Lost."

Thanks for the editing.  My classics are a bit rusty. 
That's what too much reading of Dr. Seuss does.


> Dante's best line came from The Inferno... the
...snippit...
> ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."
> 
> I want that on the door to my gaming room.. :)

When I play a Chief Engineer, I want it on the door to
engineering.  No need to lock it up, the passengers
will stay away without any security keeping them out. 
(Unless the passengers are Player Characters, then
Satan himself couldn't keep them from trying.)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051636.DKL02665@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

There was a Harry Harrison series of novels that also had an 
arm rig that figured prominently in the storyline.

IMHO, it looks bulky, uncomfortable, and likely to blow your 
fingers off. That, and the weapon that pops out is unlikely 
to do more than draw return fire (or put bullet holes in your 
computer at an inopportune moment). You've got maybe two 
shots, and the weapon is likely to be something weak.

If you're allowed to carry concealed, carry a regular 
pistol.  After all, even if the 9mm doesn't impress him with 
the first shot, I'm sure the remaining rounds in the magazine 
will.

That, and carry a second pistol somewhere else on the body 
for a NYPD "speedload".

ObTrav:  The easiest holdout to design would be a laser.  You 
could isolate the powerpack and electronics at some other 
location under the clothing, run a fiber optic cable to the 
hand area, contrive a trigger (ring pull?), and have the exit 
optics somewhere over the back of the hand.  If you made a 
fist, and curled the fist inward, the ring would pull the 
trigger and the beam would fire over the back of the hand.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204051641.DKL03427@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>Define 'successfully'.  How many casualties were produced by 
>bayonets?

If I win, I win. Casualties or not.

I will admit that a bayonet is a dangerous thing to have 
around.  The first casualty I saw in the Gulf War to arrive 
at the forward aid station during the ground war was a 
bayonet casualty.  A Bradley gunner was wearing his LBE open, 
and the bayonet fell out and stuck, blade up, in the back of 
his seat.  At some point, he ducked down and slammed the 
hatch overhead.  Suddenly, he noticed something cold, hard, 
and far too long up his backside.  So he stood up, and opened 
the hatch, and let the whole world know it.

I told him that he'll never be able to tell his kids about 
the war.  He spent the next two weeks lying on his face, 
while the nurses changed the packing several times a day 
without painkillers.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051643.DKL03760@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug brings up Dante
<snip>

Oh, I think that Marlowe's Mephistopheles was better:

Hell hath no limits
Nor is circumscribed in one self space
For where we are is Hell,
and where Hell is, there we shall ever be



________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 09:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (KevinC)
Date: Fri Apr  5 09:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
References: <20020405003205.D8ED7279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> I am trying to converts old TML archives into a format that the new Mailman
> archiver can use.  Here the problem.  When the messages were originally
> saved, they were saved as digests with most of the header stripped of each
> message.

Tod,

Will the new TML archive be accessible by web search engines and
bots/spiders?

If yes, then you need to do something to protect the email addresses of
anyone whose posts are in the archive.

Otherwise "harvesters" will grab them all, and spam the good ( still
active) ones.

-- 
KevinC               Pentapod's World of 2300AD
kevinc@cnetech.com   http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2303/
                     http://go.to/PentapodsWorld


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 09:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 09:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051636.DKL02665@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEMIDJAA.tml@downport.com>

A .45 Colt Derringer is two shots at point blank. By the time you pull your
Beretta out of your shoulder holster, kung foo kitty has already broken your
neck at that range. Also good in a knife fight, or after you have emptied or
lost your Colt .45

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

IMHO, it looks bulky, uncomfortable, and likely to blow your
fingers off. That, and the weapon that pops out is unlikely
to do more than draw return fire (or put bullet holes in your
computer at an inopportune moment). You've got maybe two
shots, and the weapon is likely to be something weak.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 09:27:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 09:27:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <20020405.092414.-73051.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

> --- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> > "ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."
> > 

Back in 1986 I added the above quote to our office computer system when I
was its oporator. I ran closing, mid and end of month stuff. Well, the
quote freaked out the Buyer, Accounts receivables, and a couple early
imput girls who didn't want to log on the next morning. Fortunately for
me I came in before the boss.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051758.DKN05522@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>
>A .45 Colt Derringer is two shots at point blank.

Have you seen how much a .45 Colt derringer weighs?  It's a 
steel brick.  Much better just to whack someone in the face 
with it in your fist.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:02:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:02:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051801.DKN05830@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>Well, the quote freaked out the Buyer, Accounts receivables, 
>and a couple early imput girls who didn't want to log on the 
>next morning. Fortunately for me I came in before the boss.
>

I've gotten called on the carpet for more than one e-mail sig 
that people "don't get".  Some of them were completely 
unoffensive, as far as I was concerned.

Sometimes there's a lot to be gained if none of your co-
workers know what your hobbies or prior careers were.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
References: <200204051758.DKN05522@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CADEAEB.10501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Have you seen how much a .45 Colt derringer weighs?  It's a 
> steel brick.  Much better just to whack someone in the face 
> with it in your fist.

Deal! I'll let Swordy whack me in the face with it and shoot you. Betcha 
I get up first ;-)

And they're not all that heavy...I thwacked myself on the head with my 
father-in laws' 357 Derringer once, digging in the closet for some 
shoes. A .45 isn't going to weigh a lot more than a .357 one.

(he had it in a coat pocket of one of his suits. Bruce digging in closet 
"Ah! There they are <KLONK> What the...!!!" <dig dig> "Jeez what's doing 
with a pocket cannon like that!??")

Seriously, (so to speak) DiNiro makes a rig like this in Taxi Driver out 
of a drawer slide and duct tape.

(if the women don't find ya handsome...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk> <001001c1dc2b$d13fac40$a6ecff3e@k5k9u6>
Message-ID: <3CADEB80.1080907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

nellkyn wrote:

> 
> Please stop it and make it go away! I've just suffered a BSI surveillance
> visit today. Traveller is where I get away from the real world.
> 
> Obtrav
> Would there be a standards institute in the 3I?
> Would ISO 9000 appeal to the Vilani sense bureaucracy?


One sentence that engenders fear and panic in every starship owner's 
heart: 'Bwap compliance inspector.'

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <3CADEAEB.10501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEMJDJAA.tml@downport.com>

The classic version weighs about the same as an empty coffee mug (15 oz). I
carry a mug with varying amounts of coffee in it all day long, to I'm
already in shape ;)

I suppose a light-weight could opt for a .44 at half the heft (7.5 oz) and
still be able to best a knife wielding punk.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Johnson

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Have you seen how much a .45 Colt derringer weighs?  It's a
> steel brick.  Much better just to whack someone in the face
> with it in your fist.

Deal! I'll let Swordy whack me in the face with it and shoot you. Betcha
I get up first ;-)

And they're not all that heavy...I thwacked myself on the head with my
father-in laws' 357 Derringer once, digging in the closet for some
shoes. A .45 isn't going to weigh a lot more than a .357 one.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3611@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405134053.00ab8e50@pop.wizard.net>

At 07:24 AM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Just to set things straight, it was John Groth that recommended the
>Brittania site [tips Diet Pepsit to John <'cause it's too early for beer ;)
> >]
>Jesse

I stand corrected.  John, thank you very much.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:52:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:52:29 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 9:22 AM, KevinC at kevinc@cnetech.com wrote:
> Tod,
> 
> Will the new TML archive be accessible by web search engines and
> bots/spiders?
> 
> If yes, then you need to do something to protect the email addresses of
> anyone whose posts are in the archive.
> 
> Otherwise "harvesters" will grab them all, and spam the good ( still
> active) ones.

I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>
>The classic version weighs about the same as an empty coffee 
>mug (15 oz).

Yes, and it's about half the weight of a Glock.  Half.

That, and unless we're right across the table, it's not as 
easy to hit something as one might think.  If we're as far 
apart as 15 feet, the average shooter is going to miss the 
majority of their shots at that distance (hopefully, Mr. Cook 
has given you some learned lessons).  You get two tries at 
what traditionally is 25% hits, and I get how many?

If you miss, well, I get to keep shooting.

If you're much closer than that, and I see you start the 
draw, it's a short distance to close and hold your arm down 
while I knee you in the groin.

I think that derringers were meant for shooting under the 
table without warning, or for shooting people in the back 
without warning.  The ones I've tried (American Derringer) 
had a tendency to turn in the hand between shots, and take 
time to orient correctly in the hand from the draw (perhaps 
why you'll need the sleeve gadget).

You could, of course, skip the derringer altogether and get a 
true "sleeve gun", which I'm sure Tod will have a legal 
comment on.  

ObTrav: there isn't much "law level" commentary on concealed 
weaponry. Does anyone have house rules on this?

I am less likely to find a derringer on your person with a 
hand search, especially if I'm careless.

I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed 
(in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so 
legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through 
their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears 
off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police 
detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out 
of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a 
no no to begin with).  


________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:07:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:07:29 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:51:56AM -0800
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com> <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405120614.B19040@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:51:56AM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

I would think the GNU Mailman would do this for you...

# $email = &obfuscate_email($email)
#        or
# @emails = &obfuscate_email(@emails)

sub obfuscate_email
{
  my @email = @_;
  my $email;

  foreach $email (@email)
  {
    $email =~ s/@/ at /g;
    $email =~ s/\./ dot /g;
  }
  if ($#email)
  {
    return @email;
  } else {
    return $email[0];
  }
}

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only kind of freedom that the mob can imagine is freedom to annoy
and oppress its betters, and that is precisely the kind that we mainly
have.                                                   --H.L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:09:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:09:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:21:18AM -0500
References: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020405120835.C19040@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:21:18AM -0500, laning wrote:
>
> Any of you guys know Ruby?

I'm afraid it doesn't do a whole lot for me.  I like perl, python,
scheme and C.  I'm sure I would like Common Lisp.  SmallTalk never did
a lot for me, and for awhile I thought C++ was cool--but I no longer
do.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There isn't a single useful thing that we in the CS community can come
up with that some @&%! marketer can't abuse.                 --devphil

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <20020405120614.B19040@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B8D3378F.376BE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 11:06 AM, Robert A. Uhl at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:51:56AM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>> 
>> I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.
> 
> I would think the GNU Mailman would do this for you...
> 
> # $email = &obfuscate_email($email)
> #        or

I haven't looked at the old archives to see how email is buried in there.
In the new lists, all email addresses point to the list address, and any
spammer who want to post to that will have to subscribe to the list.  Then
they'll get all the tml email -- counter spam!
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:15:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:15:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051914.DKP06560@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>SmallTalk never did a lot for me

You must like strong typing.  I learned to love programming 
again.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mole)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3378F.376BE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8D33890.5666%mole@solsec.org>

on 4/5/02 11:14 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> I haven't looked at the old archives to see how email is buried in there.
> In the new lists, all email addresses point to the list address, and any
> spammer who want to post to that will have to subscribe to the list.  Then
> they'll get all the tml email -- counter spam!
> --

"I see your spam and raise you several hundred counter spams"

-- 
Mole


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204051057330.14455-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, laning wrote:
> Any of you guys know Ruby?
> http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/index.html

I've been looking at it; it looks pretty nice.  Most criticisms I've seen
about it tend to point to Python as a better language, though.  As a
result, I'm learning them both at pretty much the same time.  Hard to make
an informed choice without knowing both, after all.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204051914.DKP06560@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:14:24PM -0500
References: <200204051914.DKP06560@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405123244.A19291@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:14:24PM -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> >SmallTalk never did a lot for me
> 
> You must like strong typing.  I learned to love programming 
> again.

I rather think you must mean _static_ typing.  Strong typing means
that expression are guaranteed to be type-safe (either at compile or
run time).  This is the case in nearly every language _but_ C, C++ and
assembler.  Weak typing means, for example, that you can try to add 14
to a string.  The results are generally unexpected.

Static typing means that a variable's type is checked once, at compile
time, and that it never changes.  This is the case in C.  Dynamic
typing is common in most other languages, including Python, SmallTalk
and Scheme.

I like dynamic strong typing.  Weak typing is too error-prone for my
tastes.  Hence I like Scheme a lot.  E.g.:

(define x 3)
(set! x "I am a happy string")
(set! x (lambda (y) (+ (sqrt y) (expt y 2))))

Are all legal.  However, strong typing means that:

(define x "This is a string")
(* x 7)

Is illegal, because * does not handle strings.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
RFC 882 put the dot in .com.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
References: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CADFCD0.6000801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Mark Urbin writes:
> 
>>The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF 
>>since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.
> 
> 
> Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a reference _since_ Lensman, though there
> certainly was one in Lensman.  In any case, it hasn't been a 'staple' exactly.

"Space Viking" H. Beam Piper

"The Forever War" mentions something like this, IIRC, but it's been a 
*long* time since I read it.

Many of the Flandry series, by Poul Anderson mention troopers using 
melee arms. I specifically remember one passage about a big trooper in 
battle dress wielding a 'collapsium-plated battle axe'.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051937.DKR02226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I can add 14 to a String in Smalltalk -- it's just that I'll 
get the message

"String does not understand +"

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:38:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:38:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 10:57 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> Yes, and it's about half the weight of a Glock.  Half.
> 
> That, and unless we're right across the table, it's not as
> easy to hit something as one might think.  If we're as far
> apart as 15 feet, the average shooter is going to miss the
> majority of their shots at that distance (hopefully, Mr. Cook
> has given you some learned lessons).  You get two tries at
> what traditionally is 25% hits, and I get how many?

As a note, it should be mentioned that a derringer's intrinsic accuracy is
the same as for any short barreled pistol.  It's the form factor that is the
problem.  If you put a derringer or any other short barrel handgun in a
Ransom rest, they can shoot remarkably well.

Personally, I think they are pretty useless except as a totalaly last
result.
> 
> I think that derringers were meant for shooting under the
> table without warning, or for shooting people in the back
> without warning.  The ones I've tried (American Derringer)
> had a tendency to turn in the hand between shots, and take
> time to orient correctly in the hand from the draw (perhaps
> why you'll need the sleeve gadget).

Assuming the sleeve gadget works.
> 
> You could, of course, skip the derringer altogether and get a
> true "sleeve gun", which I'm sure Tod will have a legal
> comment on. 

'Disguised' guns are a tricky proposition when dealing with ATF.  For
example, someone developed a holster that holds a derringer, and the
derringer can be fired from within the wallet shaped holster.

"Here's my wallet, sir, Just don't hurt me.  BLAM!  BLAM!"

ATF says that such a wallet and gun constitutes a disguised firearm and must
be registered (I believe and an AOW -- Any Other Weapon $5 transfer tax).
Gun guns, pen guns and other such weapons classify as AOWs.
> 
> ObTrav: there isn't much "law level" commentary on concealed
> weaponry. Does anyone have house rules on this?

Coming right up
> I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
> (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
> legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
> their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
> off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
> detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
> of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
> no no to begin with).

Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.
> 
> 
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <3cadc22c.4909163@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B8D33EA8.376DB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 7:42 AM, Stephen Tempest at tml@stempest.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
>> The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed civilians.  It has little or
>> no military application, contrary to popular mythos.
> 
> ... I wouldn't go that far...  Firstly, bayonets were primarily a
> _defensive_ weapon:  they stopped infantry being overrun and trampled
> by cavalry.  ("Form square!")

But what about Elan!

They were supposedly very offensive as well.  In an infantry charge with
musket you could get off one round and then it was 'in with the bayonet'.

The problem is that neither side really like the bayonet.  We it comes right
down to it, the attackers rarely actually thrust into their opponents. Look
at the reports of the number of actual bayonet wounds in the Napoleonic
wars, or even the American civil war.  The other side usually runs before it
gets to that, or the attackers stop short.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:47:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:47:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEMMDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Sorry to get you going on this stuff. I've been comparing a derringer to a
knife or a fist. 15 feet is as good as a mile with a derringer (at least for
me). This is more of the Body Pistol argument. It is not a serious weapon,
it is bit of muscle when you don't have a serious weapon. It is a bang when
they expect a punch. Not having any aiming abilities*, I'd never try to
shoot further than a yard.

*Forex: on Thanksgiving I was treated to about 50 shots from a small 9mm
handgun. My target was a swinging 2 liter bottle of water at about 10-12
yards. It was still full of water when I got done. Give me a snowball,
though, and things are different ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

"Swordy" says
>
>The classic version weighs about the same as an empty coffee
>mug (15 oz).

Yes, and it's about half the weight of a Glock.  Half.

That, and unless we're right across the table, it's not as
easy to hit something as one might think.  If we're as far
apart as 15 feet, the average shooter is going to miss the
majority of their shots at that distance (hopefully, Mr. Cook
has given you some learned lessons).  You get two tries at
what traditionally is 25% hits, and I get how many?

If you miss, well, I get to keep shooting.

If you're much closer than that, and I see you start the
draw, it's a short distance to close and hold your arm down
while I knee you in the groin.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <3CADEB80.1080907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <001001c1dc2b$d13fac40$a6ecff3e@k5k9u6>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405145001.00a7b1d8@urbin.net>

At 11:22 AM 4/5/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>nellkyn wrote:
>>Please stop it and make it go away! I've just suffered a BSI surveillance
>>visit today. Traveller is where I get away from the real world.
>>Obtrav
>>Would there be a standards institute in the 3I?
>>Would ISO 9000 appeal to the Vilani sense bureaucracy?
>One sentence that engenders fear and panic in every starship owner's 
>heart: 'Bwap compliance inspector.'

That's a keeper!  Bruce, would you mind joining Doug in my RPG sig quote file?



>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"It is both foolish and wicked to teach the average man who is
not well off that some wrong or injustice has been done him,
and that he should hope for redress elsewhere than in his own
industry, honesty, and intelligence." -- Theodore Roosevelt,
"Review of Reviews", January 1897
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>
>Sorry to get you going on this stuff. I've been comparing a 
>derringer to a knife or a fist.

I hope never to be that close to someone when something bad 
happens (then again, consider my luck).

We used to do fighting with rubber knives and chalk, with 
black t-shirts.  From about three paces, I never failed to 
mark someone from the gut to the collar before they could 
clear leather.  That was someone who knew what the exercise 
entailed, and I am by no means a martial artist, or an expert 
with a knife.

Bad things happen really fast. 
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod says:

>I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

Thank you for that.  :->

Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
usenet newsgroups.

Just a thought.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204051937.DKR02226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:37:55PM -0500
References: <200204051937.DKR02226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405130711.B19291@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:37:55PM -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
> I can add 14 to a String in Smalltalk -- it's just that I'll 
> get the message
> 
> "String does not understand +"

(define x "A string")
(+ 14 x)

In guile:
  standard input:51:1: In procedure + in expression (+ 14 x):
  standard input:51:1: Wrong type argument: "A string"
  ABORT: (wrong-type-arg)

  Type "(backtrace)" to get more information.

In umb-scheme:
  Error: Bad argument type to primitive in: (+ 14 x)

In other words, the same thing as in SmallTalk.  Both Scheme and
SmallTalk have strong dynamic typing.  C, OTOH, has weak static
typing.  The C fragment:

char* string = "fellow";
string--;
string = "fool";

Is completely legal, and completely wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Bother,' said Pooh, `Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock
phasers on the Heffalump; Piglet, meet me in transporter room three.'
                                                    --Robert Billing

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:08:38PM -0500
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com> <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020405130926.C19291@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:08:38PM -0500, laning wrote:
> 
> Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
> site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
> then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
> for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
> usenet newsgroups.

I hate that--Yahoo does it.  It means that information is hidden from
all but members, and what had been a public resource is hidden behind
a wall.  Given that there are other, better ways to prevent address
harvesting, I cannot support such a move.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A lady came up to me on the street and pointed at my suede jacket.  `You
know a cow was murdered for that jacket?' she sneered. 
I replied in a psychotic tone, `I didn't know there were any witnesses.
Now I'll have to kill you too.'                        --Jake Johansen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051207400.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, laning wrote:

> Tod says:
> 
> >I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.
> 
> Thank you for that.  :->
> 
> Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
> site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
> then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
> for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
> usenet newsgroups.
> 
That'd be great, as long as my password could be changed by me to
something I wouldn't forget.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <20020405130926.C19291@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051217390.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:08:38PM -0500, laning wrote:
> > 
> > Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
> > site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
> > then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
> > for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
> > usenet newsgroups.
> 
> I hate that--Yahoo does it.  It means that information is hidden from
> all but members, and what had been a public resource is hidden behind
> a wall.  Given that there are other, better ways to prevent address
> harvesting, I cannot support such a move.

Have you ever been tracked down from a public resource?

I have.  

If they want to read our posts they can always sign up.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 11:52 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> We used to do fighting with rubber knives and chalk, with
> black t-shirts.  From about three paces, I never failed to
> mark someone from the gut to the collar before they could
> clear leather.  That was someone who knew what the exercise
> entailed, and I am by no means a martial artist, or an expert
> with a knife.

I'd just like to point out that there is a big difference between practicing
with knives in the dojo and actually using one one someone.  Knife fighting
is a brutal and intimate form of combat.  A single knife thrust or slash is
rarely incapacitating or even debilitating.  To actually stop an attacker
with a knife, you need to be prepared to use it multiple times.  There will
be blood, and possibly screaming.  You will be right in your opponents face.
An he will probably not be cooperating.

The human body is also much better defended against a knife than a firearm.
There are lots of bones to get in the way:  ribs, arms and leg bones, etc.
As an experiment, try thrusting and/or slashing an animal carcass.  Better
if it's hanging on a cord so it's free to swing and twist.  it's a lot
harder than it seems.

Also, most knives are not really up to the challenge of combat.  They are
rarely sharp enough or strong enough to be really effective.  It's hard to
slash through clothing and then deep into meat.  It's hard to thrust between
ribs and not break a point or have the knife twist out of you hand,
especially if there's a lot of blood on everything (including you).

Working in a hospital, I saw a lot of people wounded by knives walk into the
emergency room under their own power.  A few people wounded by handguns did
the same.  I never saw anyone who had been shot by a rifle in a major body
part walk in, they were wheeled in.

I like knives.  I was a professional custom knife maker for several years.
My preference was for 'fighting' knives.  But if I had to pick a weapon, a
knife would be way down my list (after guns, baseball bat, etc.)

A knife is really best as an offensive weapon, provided you are ruthless
enough to use it.  It excels in the surprise silent kill on an unsuspecting
opponents, preferably attacked from behind.  But only if you don't have
something better.

A friend, who worked with Pheonix project while in the service in the 1960s
related to me the story of his one knife encounter (after many beers).  This
person is a large, powerful and rather competent former member Special
Forces.  Attempting to kidnap a local individual for interrogation by his
CIA masters, things got out of hand.  He attempted to use a Randall number 1
(a particularly well regarded combat knife) to end the conflict.  His
opponent was all of 5'5" and of slight build.

Ken reported that he stabbed the individual at least a dozen times.  Blood
was everywhere and the target was screaming like a banshee and fighting like
a tiger.  They lost their grip on the bloody man, who promptly ran off.  He
was captured several days later.

Makes one think.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:33:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:33:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051217390.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:19:15PM -0800
References: <20020405130926.C19291@4dv.net> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051217390.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020405133255.A19481@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:19:15PM -0800, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> Have you ever been tracked down from a public resource?

Yeah--but 'twas a good thing in my case.  And, indeed, it doesn't
bother me--the same can be done with Google and a few minutes in the
white pages, generally.

The development of the Internet into a group of walled-and-gated
communities is not, IMHO, a good thing.

I _really_ hate being forced to choose between registering (and having
who-knows-what happen to my data) and not accessing what is
essentially public information.  After all, anyone can sign up and
archive the list anyway.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Umm...  Excuse me.  I think the network's down?'
`A communications disruption can only mean one thing...invasion.'
          --Lee Maguire, teaching us how to make people go away

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204052034.DKT01667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

So it's a matter of "do you enforce typing" and "when do you 
enforce it".

I like mine done, but only at the last minute.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:35:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:35:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D34A21.37700%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 12:08 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the
> site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address
> then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy
> for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than
> usenet newsgroups.

And would the users bitch.  oh yes.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:32:47PM -0800
References: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405133914.A19510@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:32:47PM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> A knife is really best as an offensive weapon, provided you are ruthless
> enough to use it.  It excels in the surprise silent kill on an unsuspecting
> opponents, preferably attacked from behind.

http://armor.com/2000/catalog/item723.html

Although the picture is not nearly as nice as in the previous edition.
It's actually a beautiful glittering foot-long weapon ideal for that
sort of work.  Not something that has any use in a knife-fight.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
           --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204052034.DKT01667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:34:14PM -0500
References: <200204052034.DKT01667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405134034.B19510@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:34:14PM -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
> So it's a matter of "do you enforce typing" and "when do you 
> enforce it".
> 
> I like mine done, but only at the last minute.

Which is what SmallTalk and Scheme both do.

Now, there are advantages to SmallTalk.  To tell te truth, I just
never cared over-much for its syntax or standard library.  It didn't
do a whole lot for me.  But everyone's different.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Cape Cod Salsa--somehow that's just not right.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:51:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:51:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <3CADFCD0.6000801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405151454.02882b30@pop.wizard.net>

Bruce Johnson:

>Many of the Flandry series, by Poul Anderson mention troopers using melee 
>arms. I specifically remember one passage about a big trooper in battle 
>dress wielding a 'collapsium-plated battle axe'.

Collapsium, eh?  Plated, you say"  Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Beware those lesser-quality battle axes sold by others.  'Collapsium 
plating' can never substitute for the reliable, never-needs-sharpening, 
100%-pure Unobtainium (tm) battle axe sold only by special and exclusive 
arrangement with the only certified maker of battle axes that His Imperial 
Majesty's Marine Corps buys from.

(Video of two people in different colored battle dress facing each 
other.  The one in green battle dress just stands there, arms folded, while 
the one in black battle dress is hacking away uselessly at his chest with a 
battle axe.  You can see pieces of the axe's plating flaking off and 
spinning in every direction each time it strikes the armored chest.)

Voiceover:  "Has this ever happened to you?"

Voiceover:  "Don't wind up like this poor guy who bought from cheap imitators!"

(Video cuts to the person in black battle dress, now laying stretched out 
and unmoving on his back, arms collapsed on the ground as if they had been 
held up defensively before collapsing.  The green battle dress is standing, 
facing camera, arms folded again, one foot on the torso of his vanquished 
enemy.  A camouflage-handled battle axe is sunk into the neck of the purple 
battle dress, all the way to the haft.)

Voiceover:  "This sad story has been repeated all too often by 
others.  Don't be embarrassed like them!  Get the only genuine, solid 100% 
Unobtainium battle axe sold in the Marches today and enjoy the pleasure and 
satisfaction of winning all your melees from now on!"

(Video of man in black battle dress.  Helmet is swung back on its hinges so 
we can see the wearer's head.  A good-looking professional model with a 
cr150 haircut and perfect teeth, smiling and basking in the congratulations 
and envious looks from his squadmates who are crowded around him.)

Squadmate 1:  "Wow, Sergeant, I've always heard how great pure Unobtainium 
battle axes are, and now I know someone who _has_ one!"

Squadmate 2:  "Sergeant Jones, you _always_ seem to have the best gear.  No 
wonder you always get the girls when we're on leave."

Squadmate 3 (glumly):  "Well I guess it isn't _me_ who will be killing the 
most enemy in close combat anymore."

(Very tall, distinguished looking man in black battle dress walks up from 
Jones' side, helmet also completely open.  He has a colonel's insignia on 
his chest.)

Colonel:  "Well, Sergeant Jones, I can see _why_ you were just recommended 
for meritorious promotion.  You're the only one here savvy enough to have 
bought a genuine, pure 100% Unobtainium battle axe."

(Colonel pulls his Unobtainium axe from his side.  Close up as he holds it 
in front of his face to admire and proudly display it.)

Colonel:  "It reminds me of the same 100% Unobtainium battle axe I got just 
before I was commissioned 25 years ago and _still_ with me today.  It has 
never let me down."

(Colonel turns to Jones again and puts his free hand on Jones' shoulder 
with a smile.)

Colonel:  "Son, it looks like it will be smooth sailing for you."

(Cut to graphic of axe, captioned with 'The ONLY exclusive pure 100% 
Unobtainium (tm) battle axe!'  Net, comm, and xboat sales information 
listed below that for the market the ad is running in.)

Voiceover:  "Isn't it about time _you_ make the right choice and get the 
only pure 100% Unobtainium battle axe in the Marches?"

(Graphic remains as a translucent overlay.  Behind it we see Jones in full, 
black battle dress, helmet sealed laying waste to one green-suited foe 
after another as they run up to him attacking wildly but he easily 
penetrates each one's armor in one try and they throw their arms up and 
collapse in death.)

(Graphic overlay remains, video cuts to closeup of someone in green battle 
dress, helmet open.  He looks terrified.  He addresses the camera as it 
slowly zooms to close up.)

Terrified Trooper:  "That guy must have an _Unobtainium_ battle axe."

Terrified Trooper (resigned and glum):  "I sure wish _I_ had one of those 
but it's too late, now."

(Camera pulls back to show Terrified Trooper charging Jones as the pile of 
bodies in front of Jones grows.)

--Laning
I almost wrote it up as Chinese forklift spam but for bonded superdense 
battle axes instead.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <20020405.125213.-122687.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:01:18 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
>
> 
> Sometimes there's a lot to be gained if none of your co-
> workers know what your hobbies or prior careers were.

Oh, I like this...

How about a character doing the same?
Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her past, and late in
a game spring it on your group.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:53:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:53:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
Message-ID: <200204052051.DKT03530@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>I never saw anyone who had been shot by a rifle in a major 
>body part walk in, they were wheeled in.
>
Which brings me around full circle.  I remember being told by 
an older NCO not to carry a fighting knife, as he had killed 
numerous men at close enough range to see their last meal on 
their teeth.  But he always used a RIFLE.  From a few feet 
away (CAR-15 on full auto, as he told it).

This man had been in Vietnam, had his lower jaw shot off, and 
walked three days without medical care to be retrieved.  He 
was put out of the service for some time, but after getting 
bone implants was allowed to reenlist in the Army. We were 
all afraid of him (1SGT Lydick).

He said he never, ever killed anyone with a knife OR a 
pistol.  Always the rifle.

Haven't killed anyone, but I've killed a lot of deer. Made 
the mistake "once" of trying to use a .44 Mag on a 180 pound 
whitetail (a bit heavy, yes) near Savannah, GA.  Two hits, 
from 35 yards away, one through the left side into the lungs 
and out the other side, one as he turned (into the diaphragm 
forward and out through the front).  I had to follow him for 
two miles. (240gr Sierra JHP, 24 grains IMR 4227, your 
mileage may differ).

Not one deer that I've shot "once" with a .308 (180 grain 
Nosler Ballistic Tip) has taken more than two steps before 
falling.  And that was up to 150 yards away (no, I don't make 
long range shots on deer).

The .308 is not a "powerhouse" round, but it is a real rifle 
round.

ObTrav: Question about penetration and damage.  There 
is "proof" now that the green tip will penetrate most body 
armor at urban combat ranges BUT, if it hits an unarmored 
person, it is less likely to overpenetrate than standard 9mm 
ball at the same distance.  How does that work?  One would 
think that penetration is penetration, and if it goes through 
a vest, then you aren't even standing there.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204052054.DKT03893@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning writes
<snip nice commercial for unobtainum battle axe>

Might need a handle made of handwavium.  That way, you can 
kill people and do your handwaves in one stroke.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204052058.DKT04431@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  writes
>Oh, I like this...
>
>How about a character doing the same?
>Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her 
>past, and late in a game spring it on your group.
>

I've mostly rolled my characters in private, and I've never 
really shown my sheet to others.

How many of you saw Ronin?  That was a nice part where DeNiro 
asks, "What color was the roof of the boathouse?".  I didn't 
really like the movie too much (seemed aimless), but it was 
Traveller-esque.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several 
places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and 
they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone 
in the place.

Fear and loathing ensues.  At one place, when my first wife 
left, there was a meeting held "about John" without my 
knowledge, to address "a potential problem".  Nothing ever 
happened, and I've never been one to make threats or act out.

When I retired "the rifle" to the local SWAT team (they 
thought it was Christmas), there was much rejoicing at work.

I went out and bought another one.  But it's not like the 
place I work for now really needs to know that.  You really 
are treated as a second-class citizen, just for owning a 
firearm.

I don't know how Tod does it, or Mark, or some of the other 
NFA holders.  People would jump out of their skins here if I 
told them I was going to buy an NFA weapon.

ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because 
people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.



________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <B8D33EA8.376DB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3cadc22c.4909163@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405155359.028b0110@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn points out:
>The problem is that neither side really like the bayonet.  We it comes right
>down to it, the attackers rarely actually thrust into their opponents. Look
>at the reports of the number of actual bayonet wounds in the Napoleonic
>wars, or even the American civil war.  The other side usually runs before it
>gets to that, or the attackers stop short.

Yeah.  If _everyone_ in those mass formations that charged each other 
actually fought when they were in contact with the enemy, casualty lists 
for battles in those eras would have been even more tragic.  And the 
battles would have been a heck of a lot shorter.

It definitely did happen in some units, some times.  But my vision of most 
of those clashes is that most of the infantrymen were busy trying to keep 
anything from stabbing them or shooting them.  More concerned with staying 
out of harm's way than inflicting harm.  Which completely matches human 
nature.  This vision is one of the few ways I can reconcile the statistics 
we have for battles in those times.  How can so many men who are fighting 
each other with nasty weapons be in such close proximity for so long and 
not have most of them mortally wounded or dead?  The fact that there are 
many instances of units actually being slaughtered in close contact only 
serves to make the more usual case stand out more starkly.

Which is a good thing, because I generally have tears pouring silently down 
my face whenever visiting ACW battlefields (I live in Northern Virginia, so 
I've been to a lot of them) or the time I went to Waterloo.  Even more 
death would just make it worse.  So much bravery, so many lives, people 
trying to just survive or people willing to kill and die for their 
beliefs,  the right and the wrong, all wasted.  Funny how so much wasted 
life and folly can make you proud to be in the same human race as them.

Since opposed planetary assaults are usually last on the list of the 
military options in the 57th century, that probably means that most major 
'battlefields' are naval battles fought in space.  What parks and museums 
should we expect from them?

--Laning
"This story shall the good man teach his son,
  And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
  From this day to the ending of the world,
  But we in it shall be remembered..."
--'Henry V' by William Shakespeare


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon points out, then Tod Glenn remarks:
> > I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
> > (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
> > legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
> > their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
> > off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
> > detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
> > of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
> > no no to begin with).
>
>Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.

And (again) what would Freud say?  :->

I doubt most societies in the Imperium will be any different.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:23:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:23:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <198.4e08185.29df6f8d@aol.com>

--part1_198.4e08185.29df6f8d_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, 
anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
  -Ken Murphy-

--part1_198.4e08185.29df6f8d_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_198.4e08185.29df6f8d_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:26:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:26:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>
References: <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net>

At 04:25 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, laning wrote:
>John Kwon points out, then Tod Glenn remarks:
>> > I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
>> > (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
>> > legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
>> > their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
>> > off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
>> > detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
>> > of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
>> > no no to begin with).
>>Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.
>And (again) what would Freud say?  :->

Probably the same thing.  Fear of weapons is a sign of sexual disorder.



>I doubt most societies in the Imperium will be any different.

-------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"The self is not something that one finds. It is
something that one creates." - Thomas Szasz
-------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <198.4e08185.29df6f8d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162512.00a6d940@urbin.net>

Instead of splitting wood, it's designed to crack open combat armor.

Sharper, denser...not to be wielded by the He-Man Muscle Workout dropouts, 
or those without strength augmenting exoskeletons...

At 04:22 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:
>  And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, 
> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
>  -Ken Murphy-

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence.  Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <20020405133914.A19510@4dv.net>
References: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405163130.03930bc0@pop.wizard.net>

Bob Uhl quoteth thusly:
>"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
>[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
>            --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

"Guns don't kill people.  Bullets kill people."  -humorous bumper sticker


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>Yeah.  If _everyone_ in those mass formations that charged 
>each other actually fought when they were in contact with 
>the enemy, casualty lists for battles in those eras would 
>have been even more tragic.

Actually, combat was far deadlier in the age of sword, on a 
percentage basis (not counting that you probably would die of 
infection if merely wounded).

Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.  
Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally 
ensued.

We've talked about it before, but the Dupuy curve shows 
weapon lethality shooting through the ceiling while 
battlefield deaths keep going down.  We're scattering, 
running, etc.  And we're not willing to engage face to face, 
human against human (what is a Predator with Hellfire, 
anyway: a one-way killing machine).

But catch a few thousand men who, after running a few hundred 
yards in armor, are now too exhausted and demoralized to 
properly defend themselves, and....

I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the 
survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of 
war.  People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or 
they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.  
Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their 
army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full 
of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in 
their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything 
except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message 
across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you 
have to do.

ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their 
opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like 
we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?

I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to 
nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough 
missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their 
ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on 
the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay 
waste to an advanced industrial society?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D358F8.3771D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:06 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several
> places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and
> they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone
> in the place.

What can I say.  Oregon.
> 
> Fear and loathing ensues.  At one place, when my first wife
> left, there was a meeting held "about John" without my
> knowledge, to address "a potential problem".  Nothing ever
> happened, and I've never been one to make threats or act out.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <200204052051.DKT03530@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405163356.03932ae0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn, after relating the combat advice of a seriously hard-core First 
Sergeant, then says:
>ObTrav: Question about penetration and damage.  There
>is "proof" now that the green tip will penetrate most body
>armor at urban combat ranges BUT, if it hits an unarmored
>person, it is less likely to overpenetrate than standard 9mm
>ball at the same distance.  How does that work?  One would
>think that penetration is penetration, and if it goes through
>a vest, then you aren't even standing there.

I don't know what green tip exactly means.  Is it more likely to deform 
upon initial penetration?  That will help it to veer, tumble, and otherwise 
do a poor job of continuing straight out the other side.  If it means the 
so-called Teflon bullet, then I've no idea what's going on with 
that.  Slice one open lengthwise and see what you can see about the details 
of its sectional density.  Maybe that will be illuminating.  Or maybe they 
have lower muzzle velocity, but just enough to penetrate standard body 
armor at less than ten yards given their fancy jacketing.

IMTU, you can usually buy all kinds of fancyshmancy ammo and make your gun 
much more effective at the job the ammo is tailored to.  Something that 
Striker and following books got partly into.  But MTU goes way past the 
number of ammo choices that would make a Tractics die hard deliriously 
happy.  Like the man said,  Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018043091.7096.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the 
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of 
> war.
<snip> 
> It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message 
> across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you 
> have to do.

Historically, it didn't work very well.  Wars are not notably more (or less)
common today than in the past (this implies that nothing works very well).
> 
> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their 
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like 
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?

Mostly because MAD is alive and well in the Traveller Universe.  It's not as
easy as with the US and Soviets pointing 10,000 nuclear weapons at one another,
but a fullscale war could easily depopulate everything within a sector of the
spinward marches, on all sides.  It's very hard to prevent a jump-capable fleet
from laying waste to a world.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405164402.03931ec0@pop.wizard.net>

>I don't know how Tod does it, or Mark, or some of the other
>NFA holders.  People would jump out of their skins here if I
>told them I was going to buy an NFA weapon.
>
>ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because
>people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.

John, quit this world and this job and move to Tod's Traveller 
Universe.  You'd love working on the high port at Regina.  :->

You'd probably want to _marry_ Kelly, lol!

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:50:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:50:28 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMENBDJAA.tml@downport.com>

That was only one campaign in Joshua. They didn't do as they were told and
they continue the fight to this day.

Most times you see the winners killing the armies and enslaving/absorbing
the strong while leaving the weak to be plundered by lesser foes. Also very
effective.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

[snip]  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Knife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <200204052051.DKT03530@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D35CA4.3772F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 12:51 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> ObTrav: Question about penetration and damage.  There
> is "proof" now that the green tip will penetrate most body
> armor at urban combat ranges BUT, if it hits an unarmored
> person, it is less likely to overpenetrate than standard 9mm
> ball at the same distance.  How does that work?  One would
> think that penetration is penetration, and if it goes through
> a vest, then you aren't even standing there.


Au Contraire.  Penetration has to do with cross-sectional density, hardness
of the projectile and velocity.  A bullet with good penetration can become
very unstable when transiting media, particularly tissue.  I suspect that
the M855 green tip his weight distribution such that at a given rate of
twist, it starts to yaw severely when it transits into tissue.  IIRC, the
M855 is longer than the old M198 and Mach's equation shows that once the
bullet starts to tumble, projectile length is a dominant factor in bullet
retardation.  In the case of simple armor penetration, the armor material is
not think enough or pliant enough for yawing to be a factor.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405164402.03931ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D35D23.37730%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:51 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

>> ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because
>> people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.
> 
> John, quit this world and this job and move to Tod's Traveller
> Universe.  You'd love working on the high port at Regina.  :->
> 
> You'd probably want to _marry_ Kelly, lol!
> 

"An armed society is a polite society"- RAH

I always found it amusing to see Jeff Cooper quoting Heinlein.

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D34A21.37700%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405165320.039342f0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod, almost presciently, points out:

>And would the users bitch.  oh yes.

Indeed.  I think it's already started.  :->

To all:  I'm glad I advanced the idea here, because we got to have the 
feedback on how unpopular it is before the idea had a chance to waste 
anyone's time further.  And because it's now _me_ you can suspect of being 
a closet totalitarian out to subvert your right to privacy instead of 
thinking our erstwhile Listmom had anything to do with it.

I'd be happy to live with that arrangement, but only because I think I've 
come to know the Listmom well enough to realize there is _no_ danger of 
Listmom doing anything even slightly like not respecting our privacy.  And 
it would only be necessary to go past the firewalling when you want to 
access the archives, which isn't often.  Basically, I'd just go there once, 
FTP all the archives, and have them around on my local hard drive for much 
more quick and convenient use forever afterwards.

But I would be most _unhappy_ with that arrangement if creating it caused a 
rift in the TML community.  Definitely not worth it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <20020405.135958.-122687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:22:21 EST MurfNMurf@aol.com writes:
>    And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, 
> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
>   -Ken Murphy-

The handles made of Penguin bone!
The heads diamond grit plated!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <20020405.135958.-122687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <B8D35F30.3775F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:59 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
>> And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin,
>> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
>> -Ken Murphy-
> 
> The handles made of Penguin bone!
> The heads diamond grit plated!

Wouldn't penguin bone be kind of small.  How about oosik?  Then you get the
pleasure of explaining just where this unique handle material comes from.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>
 <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>

Mark Urbin:
>At 04:25 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, laning wrote:
>>John Kwon points out, then Tod Glenn remarks:
>>> > I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
>>> > (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
>>> > legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
>>> > their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
>>> > off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
>>> > detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
>>> > of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
>>> > no no to begin with).
>>>Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.
>>And (again) what would Freud say?  :->
>
>Probably the same thing.  Fear of weapons is a sign of sexual disorder.

:->  LOL.

I was thinking more like "they like touching their surrogate a great 
deal".  I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival 
response.  Unreasoning and disproportionate fear, and especially 
incapacitating fear, is a different matter and Freud would probably say a 
sign of some disorder.

Anyway, the TML has seen more than enough virtual ink spilled on 
gun-control-related issues.  Let's not go there.  I only meant my Freud 
remark as very light humor.  Please excuse the distraction.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:06:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:06:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <B8D35D23.37730%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405164402.03931ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170735.03959740@pop.wizard.net>

>"An armed society is a polite society"- RAH
>
>I always found it amusing to see Jeff Cooper quoting Heinlein.
>
>Tod

Well, I wouldn't want to learn my politics from either of them.  Too 
dictatorial.  I'll stick to the first for science fiction and the second 
for shooting techniques.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:08:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:08:30 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <B8D358F8.3771D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051404360.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

> on 4/5/02 1:06 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several
> > places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and
> > they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone
> > in the place.

OK, color me clueless, but-- if you go to someone's house on a SHOOTING
trip, wouldn't you expect them to have GUNS?

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh.

> > Fear and loathing ensues.  At one place, when my first wife
> > left, there was a meeting held "about John" without my
> > knowledge, to address "a potential problem".  Nothing ever
> > happened, and I've never been one to make threats or act out.

And this was while you were still married, right?  Man!!!!!

They were concerned about my ex-husband at my workplace for a while, but
that was because they knew the breakup was not friendly. 

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>

>Actually, combat was far deadlier in the age of sword, on a
>percentage basis (not counting that you probably would die of
>infection if merely wounded).

But I do count that.  And, as you go on to point out, the biggest factor of 
all...
>Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.
>Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally
>ensued.
>
>
>ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
>opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
>we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
>I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
>nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
>missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their
>ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on
>the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay
>waste to an advanced industrial society?

Well, we're sortakinda talking about 'Victorians in space' and that sort of 
warfare is barbaric and just bloody unsporting, old boy.  Besides, if all 
the worlds end up getting nuked, where the heck are the players going to play?

In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear 
devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and 
convincing reasons for it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D361DF.37767%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:32 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> Actually, combat was far deadlier in the age of sword, on a
> percentage basis (not counting that you probably would die of
> infection if merely wounded).

I've never seen any good statistics.  Was it really, man-for-man deadlier?
I would have thought most casualties came from the pursuit stage, where
doubtless or progenitors were much more blood thirsty.  An disease was by
far the biggest killer of soldiers, at least until WWII.
> 
> Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.
> Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally
> ensued.

Yes, the pursuit.  What you've been saving your cavalry for.
> 
> We've talked about it before, but the Dupuy curve shows
> weapon lethality shooting through the ceiling while
> battlefield deaths keep going down.  We're scattering,
> running, etc.  And we're not willing to engage face to face,
> human against human (what is a Predator with Hellfire,
> anyway: a one-way killing machine).

I'm going to have to read "Understanding War" again.  It's been too long.

> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> war.  

I'm not sure that's true any more.  Call for no quarter and the enemy is apt
to adopt a DIP attitude and fight to the last man.  Care to fight a hundred
Camerons?  Hard on your won troops morale.

If you treat you captives well, there more of an inducement to surrender.
Than you really only have to polish off the leadership.

> People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.
> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

Well, I wouldn't call the OT an accurate history in the modern sense.  The
greatest empire were forged by armies that accepted the surrender of their
foes, and absorbed their culture.
> 
> It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message
> across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you
> have to do.

When the Germans marched triumphantly through Paris after the Fraco-Prussian
was, that scene was burned into the minds of every Frenchman.  Then followed
Versailles, which made WWII possible.  We win WWII and turn loose the
Marshall plan.  Anyone think we'll be going to war with Germany soon?
> 
> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
> 
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their
> ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on
> the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay
> waste to an advanced industrial society?


Nuke a few worlds and you'll have you enemy screaming "Remember Altair 7" or
whatever.  Start nuking my worlds like that, and I'll decide I can never
make peace with you, that I must fight to the last man, and burn two of your
worlds for every one on mine you destroy.  It's a bloody calculus that's
bound to backfire.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <20020405.141338.-122687.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:58:04 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> 
> I've mostly rolled my characters in private, and I've never 
> really shown my sheet to others.

Right, sheets are private.

I'm talking about a group setting, you're into your game, and out of the
blue [on que with the GM] a persons character reverts to his former
career, be it military, psycho, war flashback, librarian for that matter,
which the group has no idea of until the characters turned loose by a
code word, light, smell, whatever.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D3629C.3776C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 2:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear
> devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and
> convincing reasons for it.

MAD
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:07:07PM -0500
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net> <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020405152015.A19842@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:07:07PM -0500, laning wrote:
>
> I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.

Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
However, it is important not to stare at the enemy because he may sense
the stalker's presence through a sixth sense.
  --US Army Field Manual 21-150 Chapter 7 "Sentry Removal"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <20020405.142533.-122687.3.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 14:03:28 -0800 Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> on 4/5/02 1:59 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com 
> wrote:
> >> And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial  cousin,
> >> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? 
> What?
> >> -Ken Murphy-
> > 
> > The handles made of Penguin bone!
> > The heads diamond grit plated!
> 
> Wouldn't penguin bone be kind of small. 

*** Bonded Superdense Penguin bones ***

> How about oosik? 

Say what??? What's Oosik??

Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <20020405.142533.-122687.3.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <B8D36663.37773%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 2:25 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> 
>> How about oosik?
> 
> Say what??? What's Oosik??
> 

A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
bone from a walrus penis.  See
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html

"I am the walrus.  Koo Koo Kachew!"
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <20020405.143525.-122687.4.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:20:15 -0700 "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:
> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:07:07PM -0500, laning wrote:
> >
> > I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.
> 
> Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
> blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
> strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.
> -- 

With me, being on the giving end is like putting on a warm fuzzy jacket
on a cold day. 
Makes me feel warm all over.
Which is why I sold my rifle.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020406083804.B25929@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear
> devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong
> and convincing reasons for it.

Near-c rock devastation is so much more effective?  <grin,duck,run>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204052240.g35MeAh25949@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

  CT stats are in an old SG (~#50?); the same one with 
the "Killer RV" for CW, IIRC :>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: bayonets
Message-ID: <200204052242.g35Mg9h26355@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
...
>The problem is that neither side really like the bayonet.  We it comes right
>down to it, the attackers rarely actually thrust into their opponents. Look
>at the reports of the number of actual bayonet wounds in the Napoleonic
>wars, or even the American civil war.  The other side usually runs before it
>gets to that, or the attackers stop short.

  But would they have run if the attackers - well, about-to-be-
pursuing infantry - _didn't_ have bayonets?  I suggest not.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:44:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:44:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <B8D35F30.3775F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020405.135958.-122687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405174141.00abfe98@urbin.net>

At 02:03 PM 4/5/2002 -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 4/5/02 1:59 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> >> And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin,
> >> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
> >> -Ken Murphy-
> > The handles made of Penguin bone!
> > The heads diamond grit plated!
>Wouldn't penguin bone be kind of small.  How about oosik?  Then you get the
>pleasure of explaining just where this unique handle material comes from.

Hmm...I would go with K'kree thighbones.



-------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"The self is not something that one finds. It is
something that one creates." - Thomas Szasz
-------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:59:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:59:28 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
References: <20020405.125213.-122687.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CAE2C1B.9030204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> Oh, I like this...
> 
> How about a character doing the same?
> Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her past, and late in
> a game spring it on your group.
>

All the time. In  Eris' Akus Moby pbem all the characters started out 
knowing nothing about each other...we only know what our characters have 
told the others, in some cases that's probably just the tip of the iceberg.

All of us have some secrets, I'm sure.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <memo.290869@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200204052058.DKT04431@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

On Ronin: it's a trick question. There are 2 boathouses.

Don't ask me how I know :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] PBeM  Refs
Message-ID: <B8D36E7D.3778F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Would all the PBeM refs who are running lists on TravellerCentral.com
please add listmom@travellercentral.com to addresses that can post to your
list.

Thanks way I can send administrative messages to all the various list
subscribers.

See the section is list admin: privacy option that starts

"Addresses of members accepted for posting to this list without implicit
approval requirement."


Thanks
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAAEMDCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn says

[Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary weapon of the
infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  number of wounds caused by
bayonets was extremely small.]

That's because if I find someone at the end of my bayonet, they're not 
going to be wounded.  They won't even make it to the aid station.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204052324.g35NOjh06085@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
>Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
...
>>ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
>>opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
>>we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
...
>In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear 
>devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and 
>convincing reasons for it.

  The K'kree seem to be the only major polity that believes in
re-surfacing planets as a matter of policy. There's all sorts
of amateurs that try and compete for the title, but mostly sanity
(MAD) or cultural constraints interfere.

        Kirurform (def'n) - application of massive thermo-nuclear
and cobalt weapon bombardment to a planet inhabited by sapient
carnivores in a traditional K'kree cultural context. Wait 500
years, seed, mow, and colonize.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <B8D361DF.37767%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405173809.0288c1a0@pop.wizard.net>

Following are excerpt from original post by John Kwon and reply by Tod 
Glenn, interspersed with your humble correspondent's remarks.
> > Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.
> > Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally
> > ensued.
>
>Yes, the pursuit.  What you've been saving your cavalry for.
Well, I agree somewhat.  I think that in classical and preclassical times, 
a lot of the vanquished were killed.  But most of them not during 
pursuit.  Most of them were slaughtered as prisoners.

As for our progenitors being more bloodthirsty than us, I doubt that I 
understand your statement quite the way you meant it, Tod.  You've 
elsewhere made plain that you think people tend to be people regardless of 
costume or nation or other things.  Like century.  Perhaps you were saying 
that during the pursuit phase of a battle, our progenitors did more killing 
than we do today during the pursuit phase?  I myself think just as many of 
us today are just as bloodthirsty and genocidal as we ever were in 
yesteryear.  The major difference is that today, the people who are trying 
to stop that sort of thing have more power than they did in the past.

(The good news is that there was a signing of a truce today between the 
rebels in Angola and the government, and the next step is the rebels will 
be turning in their arms.  While I doubt the peace will be perfect, this is 
pretty historic.  They've been fighting for a quarter of a century.  I 
admire anyone who can put the desire for vengeance behind them and live in 
peace with their former enemy.  Good luck to them.)

> >
> > We've talked about it before, but the Dupuy curve shows
> > weapon lethality shooting through the ceiling while
> > battlefield deaths keep going down.  We're scattering,
> > running, etc.  And we're not willing to engage face to face,
> > human against human (what is a Predator with Hellfire,
> > anyway: a one-way killing machine).
>
>I'm going to have to read "Understanding War" again.  It's been too long.
I recommend 'Numbers, Prediction & War' by Dupuy.  He certainly has the 
statistics there, including that charming devil, graphs.  I would provide a 
link to it on Amazon, but it would be best to go to Loren Wiseman's site at 
http://www.io.com/~lkw/ and follow his link to Amazon.  That way he makes a 
little money towards the Free The Storage Bin Seven Fund.  :->


> > I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> > survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> > war.

I can't buy into that at all, John.  Sorry.  Wars seem no more omnipresent 
today than they were in classical times.  The only relationships I would 
draw are the motivation for vengeance that connects the survivors to a mass 
slaughter, and Malthusian effects of reducing population pressure by 
reducing population.  Two forces that relationships that seem in opposition 
to each other.  Even if you massacre _all_ your enemy, even the children 
below age six, you will put yourself high on the rest of the world's 
Enemies To Destroy list.  There will come the day you are on the losing 
side in a war, and genocide is not a precedent that you'd like to have around.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <B8D3629C.3776C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:18 PM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
>on 4/5/02 2:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
>
> > In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear
> > devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and
> > convincing reasons for it.
>
>MAD


But mutual destruction is not assured.  One side would have to win a 
years-long naval campaign in order to deliver its nuclear warheads against 
all the appropriate targets.  Strephon, from the comfort of his Capital 
doesn't fear in the least for his own safety or his families in the event 
of nuclear exchange with the Zhodani.  And the Vargr Extents are such a 
hotheaded place that I cannot be convinced all the nuclear warheads that 
have been in that region for centuries were never used due to its leaders' 
very enlightened view about protecting civilization.  As the Sword Worlders 
should have nuked whoever they were ticked at many times over by now.  And 
the Aslan prize honor well above their own individual lives.  Aside from 
cultural biases toward or away nuclear warfare, there have just been so 
many _individual_ sophonts with their fingers on the button in different 
times and places that it should have happened many times by now.

And in a way, the game's authors agree with that notion.  But only in 
general.  There seems to be a lack of specific worlds that have actually 
been thoroughly nuked over to go with the general history of 
destruction.  Let me go through all the relevant canonical evidence that 
come to my (sputtering and unreliable) memory to see what each one in turn 
makes me think about how MAD affected things.

The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:
The Ancients War
Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani
Presumably the N Interstellar wars
Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night
Very early in Zhodani history
Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) from 
on Darrian

At least I think it was nukes with Darrian.  Or something just as 
devastating, so the MAD concept would still apply.

I can easily accept that enough time has passed since nuclear weapons were 
used by the Ancients that we shouldn't look for reduced populations or 
uninhabitable areas due to them.  But their war is an example of none of 
the sides being deterred by MAD.

The war against the Ziru Sirka should have left marks on various planets 
that would have been mentioned elsewhere in canon.  It is an example of 
just how geographically vast wars between interstellar powers are, and how 
that makes MAD unlikely.

There don't seem to be any worlds still showing mentionable signs of 
nuclear weapons from the N Instellar Wars.  Ditto for examples from the 
Long Night.

Zhodane's problem is so long ago that it is surprising its memory still 
leaves such an indelible impression on Zhodani culture.

Darrian seems to be a good canonical instance of nuclear warfare happening 
specifically somewhere, not just in a general way to somebody.

Oh, there's that nuclear blowup instigated by the Ine Givar but that seems 
more of an isolated terrorist incident than a war.  Or at least nothing 
that you can really apply the concept of MAD to.

I find it hard to believe there are no famous specific examples of worlds 
in the Core sector being "razed" by nukes dropped by one of the Barracks 
Emperors or wannabes.  Civil wars tend to be the least civil, as the old 
saying goes.

If one goes forward with the entire post-Assassination timeline, then it 
sure didn't take any of the sides long to start wiping out anything they 
felt like.  Which makes it harder to believe that MAD was holding other 
sophonts back during all the previous centuries of various conflicts.

This all leads me to believe that MAD isn't an effective strategy against a 
geographically _very_ dispersed opponent.  And that there is a disconnect 
between the number of specific locales in canon that have suffered nuclear 
devastation and the amount of nuclear devastation we're led to believe 
actually has happened.

There are also quite a few canonical instances of balkanized worlds or 
neighboring worlds that are on the brink of total nuclear warfare in the 
current timeline.  If such tensions have careened towards the brink so 
often in current times, how could they have been so consistently avoided 
during the pasts of all the locations that canon visits and shows us.

Hope the above was coherent enough.  I wrote it in rushed bits and pieces 
while running around the house doing other stuff.  Comments and reasoned 
debate welcome, as always.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020405152015.A19842@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>
 <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405192605.02886990@pop.wizard.net>

Bob Uhl quotes me then responds:
> > I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.
>
>Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.

Not sure who you're referring to.  There are people who have unreasoning or 
disproportionate fear of either end, true.  And I think a lot of people 
have a fear of having the things around their abode, particularly if they 
have children.  There are enough statistics about accidents in the home and 
impulsive domestic shootings to make that seem reasonable attitude, even if 
you don't fully agree with or support it.  The point being that it's 
probably a healthy survivial response to avoid having guns in the house 
just like it's a healthy survival response to avoid working in coal mines, 
but YMMV.  I am honestly sympathetic to more than one side in the gun 
control debate, and think we're at the stage where reasonable people can 
agree to disagree.  (BTW, I don't any firearms but I love shooting rifles 
and shotguns.  :-)

Hey.  Wouldn't fear of a bullet-'proof' jacket be more like being afraid of 
a jacket?  You almost fooled me for a minute there.  LOL  :->

There are members of the TML who are also proud (some, even rabid  :-) 
members of the TML Rod & Gun Club.  And there are some who are not.  The 
membership lists are unlikely to ever be altered, and I never meant to get 
into a debate over whether all people who [like/hate] guns are idiotic 
sickos or not.

I think both TML Rod & Gun Clubbers and others who are opposed can all 
agree that _some_ people who own guns, and carry guns around, are moved 
primarily by psychological need to find a surrogate or maybe just plain 
anger, and not by some other need that the rest of us agree or disagree 
about the reasonableness of.  Sometimes a cigar is _not_ just a cigar, and 
sometimes a gun is not just a gun.  Other times, they are.  My Freud remark 
was merely an opportunistic bit of humor intended to give everyone a laugh 
and lighten things up for all who read it.

I've probably prattled on longer than is necessary and will shut up now, 
and post no further on the topic.  Unless it's a joke.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020405.143525.-122687.4.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405194636.028fd650@pop.wizard.net>

>With me, being on the giving end is like putting on a warm fuzzy jacket
>on a cold day.
>Makes me feel warm all over.
>Which is why I sold my rifle.
>
>Turokan

LOL!

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020406083804.B25929@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405194804.028abec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tim Little japed:

>Near-c rock devastation is so much more effective?  <grin,duck,run>

Sounds like you'd better duck and cover.  <G>

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:46:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:46:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405192605.02886990@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D3852E.377A4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 4:41 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

This has wandered off topic.  Please move this to tml-chat or tml-guntech as
appropriate.

Rule of thumb.  There should be an ObTrav.

> Bob Uhl quotes me then responds:
>>> I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.
>> 
>> Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>> blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>> strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.
> 
> Not sure who you're referring to.  There are people who have unreasoning or
> disproportionate fear of either end, true.  And I think a lot of people
> have a fear of having the things around their abode, particularly if they
> have children.  There are enough statistics about accidents in the home and
> impulsive domestic shootings to make that seem reasonable attitude, even if
> you don't fully agree with or support it.  The point being that it's
> probably a healthy survivial response to avoid having guns in the house
> just like it's a healthy survival response to avoid working in coal mines,
> but YMMV.  I am honestly sympathetic to more than one side in the gun
> control debate, and think we're at the stage where reasonable people can
> agree to disagree.  (BTW, I don't any firearms but I love shooting rifles
> and shotguns.  :-)
> 
> Hey.  Wouldn't fear of a bullet-'proof' jacket be more like being afraid of
> a jacket?  You almost fooled me for a minute there.  LOL  :->
> 
> There are members of the TML who are also proud (some, even rabid  :-)
> members of the TML Rod & Gun Club.  And there are some who are not.  The
> membership lists are unlikely to ever be altered, and I never meant to get
> into a debate over whether all people who [like/hate] guns are idiotic
> sickos or not.
> 
> I think both TML Rod & Gun Clubbers and others who are opposed can all
> agree that _some_ people who own guns, and carry guns around, are moved
> primarily by psychological need to find a surrogate or maybe just plain
> anger, and not by some other need that the rest of us agree or disagree
> about the reasonableness of.  Sometimes a cigar is _not_ just a cigar, and
> sometimes a gun is not just a gun.  Other times, they are.  My Freud remark
> was merely an opportunistic bit of humor intended to give everyone a laugh
> and lighten things up for all who read it.
> 
> I've probably prattled on longer than is necessary and will shut up now,
> and post no further on the topic.  Unless it's a joke.
> 
> --Laning
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <20020405.170459.-184723.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Laning

On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 19:46:54 -0500 laning <laning@wizard.net> writes:
> 
> >With me, being on the giving end is like putting on a warm fuzzy 
> >jacket on a cold day. Makes me feel warm all over.
> >Which is why I sold my rifle.
> >
> >Turokan
> 
> LOL!
> 
> --Laning

The US Army trained me well... 

Just don't give me a weapon, I change like Dr. Jeckle [sp] and Mr. Hyde
[sp].

However, if you want me on your team - please do :~)

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020405224405.6103A27A92@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020405164806.00a49df0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:20:15 -0700, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

>Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.

Put me down as afraid of guns, then.  Being in the presence of a real, 
functioning weapon makes me nervous.  In most circumstances, I would refuse 
to even hold one.

To some extent, this is probably because I was never acclimated to them as 
a youth, through hunting or whatever.  But I am similarly nervous around 
anything that can cause death or serious injury, even/especially by 
accident or negligence.  For example, I used to work at a gas station; part 
of my job was refilling propane cylinders from the big tank out back.  I 
hated it.  The stuff was cryo-cold, flammable, explosive, and under high 
pressure.  I was trained for it, but I still hated it.

There's also the "with great power comes great responsibility" angle.  I do 
not want or need the power to maim or kill another human being, or the 
responsibility that necessarily comes with it.  At this time and place, I 
am happier not having to handle guns.  (And yes, I'm fully aware of how 
privileged I am that I've never had to pick up a deadly weapon, let alone 
use one in anger.)

It's a lot harder to kill someone with a jacket.  Definitely not 
impossible, but jackets are not primarily designed to apply deadly 
force.  A firearm is, and I grant them all the respect they are due as a 
result.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] G:Ground Forces queston
Message-ID: <B8D3910E.30E8%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

Hi,

In the Grav vehicle design section, duct fans are listed as having a
positive energy amount, instead of negative.  Is this an error or do they
actually act as power plants?

Thanks,

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:41:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:41:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
References: <20020405194007.A9EDC27A7A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CAE5228.FED9D9B0@earthlink.net>

Thank you, Messers Brick, Scheets, Whipsnade, and all others
who offered an answer to my question.

I recently found the original 1981 character sheet for
my favorite character of all time. He went through SORAG
as part of his pre-game career and had picked up the skill
of "Holster".

While I best remember the item from The Deathworld
Trilogy novels Mr. Whipsnade referred to, I do recall
seeing it for the first time on good ol' Wild Wild West.

Personally, though, I really like the one used by the
Pyrrans in the trilogy.

I really don't see it being practical, given Harrison's
"power holster" had the strength to rip through rough-woven
cloth,  especially since the sidearm it propelled into
the wearer's hand in less than one second, fired a large
caliber HEAP round, and had no trigger guard.

Either a White Dwarf or a Space Gamer mag actually
had CT stats for them. Ah, for the days of being a
Traveller munchkin! <grin>

For those of you who may be interested in these works
by Harry Harrison, may I suggest the following site:

http://www.iol.ie/~carrollm/hh/n01-01.htm

It has some details on the various publications of the
adventures of the trilogy's hero, psionic gambler Jason
dinAlt, including a new trilogy published only for the 
Russian market!  :(

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 18:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri Apr  5 18:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
Message-ID: <001101c1dd0f$c57c7340$f619f7a5@pctframen>

Sorta on topic for this subject, in that it deals with an incident where the
communication delay was vital. As usual, when thinking about Traveller
communication, a pre-20th Century example is useful:

"[Louis Remme, a cowboy] was at Sacramento, California, on Feb. 2nd [1855]
when he received a draft ion the Adams and Company Bank of San Francisco for
twelve thousand dollars. Unfortunately, he delayed cashing the draft until
the following morning. Meanwhile, the San Francisco bank had become a
financial casualty overnight. This failure caused its branch banks,
including the one in Sacramento, to close their doors immediately...
    "But, and his thoughts were racing, there was still a chance. It was a
slim possibility, but worth a try...The San Francisco firm had a branch in
Portland, Oregon, seven hundred miles away. The northern branch would not
close until word reached there from San Francisco; and that word would have
to go by sea, the only direct line of communication with the Columbia River
region at that time. The ship...was scheduled to depart from San Francisco
that morning. Its sailing time was six days. His one long chance was to beat
the boat to Oregon and cash his draft before the Portland bank received the
order to close its doors...."

[Source: _The Rawhide Years_, Glen R Vernam]

Remme made it on time, just beating the boat. The ObTravs are interesting;
presumably, buy/sell orders to a brokerage would operate in a similar
manner, perhaps allowing the PCs to beat their own order. Situations similar
to the one Renne faced could still crop up, especially in marginal systems
that only get official mail once a week.

(Of course, the probability that a modern common-stock corporation could
operate given Traveller communications is slim, but what the hey...)

Fred "Hell for Leather" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 18:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri Apr  5 18:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <3CAE2C1B.9030204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020406023936.E756627A91@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/05/02 at 03:58 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

>> Oh, I like this...
>> 
>> How about a character doing the same?
>> Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her past, and late in
>> a game spring it on your group.
>>

>All the time. In  Eris' Akus Moby pbem all the characters started out
> knowing nothing about each other...we only know what our characters
>have  told the others, in some cases that's probably just the tip of
>the iceberg.

>All of us have some secrets, I'm sure.

That statement is true...or false. <weg>

I will say that some of the juiciest secrets were being carried by
characters that have been orphaned. Of the "cousins and partners"
we've had Martan and Sarge disappear in a misjump, Sir Jason leave to
direct a play, and April simply not disembark from the ship when it
reached Kurzu. But, Ricardo doesn't have any secrets does he? <g>

Eris


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
References: <20020405194005.BABCE27A79@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <007601c1dd18$0a3ce0c0$945d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while
> desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to
> perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.

Yep.  My WWII veteran friend has mentioned how when his company were just
about out of ammunition and surrounded, they were preparing to fix their
bayonets and die.  Fortunately for them, relief came just in the nick of
time.  They fired their last ammunition at the Japanese as they retreated.

> From: Matthew Bond
> The principal aim of a bayonet charge is to cause the flight or surrender
> of the defenders of a position.

This seems to have been the point of a bayonet charge my friend described to
me.  The charge was about thirty metres long, incidentally - more or less
how far you could see through the jungle.

> As soon as the initial terror subsided he (and now I can't recall exactly
> which) either threw down his weapon and ran for his life, or threw down
> his weapon and surrendered.

An account of an Australian bayonet charge in the official WWII histories
describe five armed Japanese soldiers just standing around squealing while a
single Australian soldier stabbed them to death.  Clearly, shock happens.

> To quote Corporal Jones in Dad's Army... "Cold Steel, Sir. They don't
> like it up 'em!"

A comment in the Australian histories suggest that the Japanese forces
didn't like facing Australian bayonet charges.  Apparently, all that
practice shouting "Banzai!" didn't actually translate into a willingness to
stand their ground against some other mad sod with a big knife on a stick.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:03:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:03:51 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <007701c1dd18$0af3fbc0$945d8690@computer>

> From: Bruce Johnson 
> One sentence that engenders fear and panic in every starship owner's
> heart: 'Bwap compliance inspector.'

Would it help if your ship's accountant was a Virushi?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] FF&S Help
In-Reply-To: <001101c1dd0f$c57c7340$f619f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAAEGNCOAA.redroach@pobox.com>

Does anyone know of a good FF&S spreadsheet for designing aircraft?

Or even better does anyone out there want to help me design a VTOL craft
using FF&S?

I have some basic specs, picture, etc...
I just HELP

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
Message-ID: <200204060325.DLH01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Or Unobtanium, maybe.  I seem to remember some science 
fiction a ways back talking about firing osmium needles at 
hypervelocities...

http://www.sciencenews.org/20020406/fob2.asp

So much for diamond coating of metals.  Maybe that axe that 
Laning's character wants to carry is coated with osmium.

ObTrav:  Giving things names like "bonded superdense" might 
be OK while I'm designing Striker vehicles, but I am always 
wondering, "superdense what?"  It's nice to know that I could 
extrapolate and say, "it's osmium, silly".
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:34:02 2002
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <3ca99b9a.4755858@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20405.185820.1a4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I want an L5 space station, then I can not only declare independence,
> but address communications to world leaders as "foolish
> Earth-beings!".
>
> And if anybody objects, well, I'm at the top of the gravity well and
> there are lots of rocks in space...

Not handy to L5. And especially not in quantities sufficient to defend
you against the folks on Earth after you send the *first* one at them.
That overgrown tin can is a lot more vulnerable than Earth.

You could hurt Earth. They could *kill* you. 

Say a pattern of nukes a thousand or so km from you. That'd overload
the solar flare shielding by quite a bit. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:37:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Trista)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:37:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
References: <200204060325.DLH01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAE6BBC.D28B1C82@the-spa.com>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> Or Unobtanium, maybe.  I seem to remember some science
> fiction a ways back talking about firing osmium needles at
> hypervelocities...

Hmmm, that sounds like the book 'Forlorn Hope'; mercenaries use
something called a 'cone bore rifle', the barrel of which is supposedly
of diamond and fires an osmium needle which is compressed as it travels
through the barrel and reaches hypervelocites. Had them in cannon size
too as I recall.

Now I have to go hunt up my copy and check. LOL Curiosity.

Siani
-- 
"Virisque Adquirit Eundo"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <200204060325.DLH01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3B0C0.377EB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 7:25 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Or Unobtanium, maybe.  I seem to remember some science
> fiction a ways back talking about firing osmium needles at
> hypervelocities...

David Drake, IIRC, in his stories


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <3CAE6BBC.D28B1C82@the-spa.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3B11B.377EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 7:30 PM, Trista at asmahan@the-spa.com wrote:

> Hmmm, that sounds like the book 'Forlorn Hope'; mercenaries use
> something called a 'cone bore rifle', the barrel of which is supposedly
> of diamond and fires an osmium needle which is compressed as it travels
> through the barrel and reaches hypervelocites. Had them in cannon size
> too as I recall.

That goes back to the old Gerlich AT guns of WWII.  I think the squeeze bore
has pretty much fallen out of favor, replaced by the discarding sabot.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 20:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 20:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] pilot specs
Message-ID: <20020405.205600.-3247.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hi all,

This is for anyone who might know.

What are the real life size minimum and maximum hight requirements for a
combat fighter pilot?
Obviously if you can't sit in the seat, or reach the pedals fully pressed
down you're out.

ObTrav:
These requirements will effect fighter cockpits for world based craft,
and possibly starship fighters and small craft.

How would this effect pilot skills in the 57th century?
Would a GM allow a short, or very large character in the pilot seat?
Would it be safe?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <005f01c1dd29$f7b338c0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "laning" <laning@wizard.net>
> The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:
> The Ancients War
> Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani
> Presumably the N Interstellar wars
> Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night
> Very early in Zhodani history
> Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) from
> on Darrian
>
> At least I think it was nukes with Darrian.  Or something just as
> devastating, so the MAD concept would still apply.
>
> Darrian seems to be a good canonical instance of nuclear warfare happening
> specifically somewhere, not just in a general way to somebody.

The cause of the Darrian Collapse wasn't nuclear weapons, it was the
Maghiz... the after effects of an innocent science project to survey the
Primary Star of Darrian, that inadvertently caused it to undergo a Nova-like
hiccup...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com> <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <2b1tauotjjqq4c8v1v1vn5isvpbofrd549@4ax.com>

On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 10:51:56 -0800, Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

>on 4/5/02 9:22 AM, KevinC at kevinc@cnetech.com wrote:
>> Tod,
>>=20
>> Will the new TML archive be accessible by web search engines and
>> bots/spiders?
>>=20
>> If yes, then you need to do something to protect the email addresses =
of
>> anyone whose posts are in the archive.
>>=20
>> Otherwise "harvesters" will grab them all, and spam the good ( still
>> active) ones.
>
>I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

Thank you for thinking of doing so.  I wonder if it might be easiest
to simply remove the actual e-mail address and leave the user's name.
=46or instance, on this reply, all the addresses which would be seen
would be "Tod Glenn" and "KevinC".  Neither would be much risk from a
harvester standpoint and yet they would easily be plainly read.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020405231806.02bc3a70@mail.earthlink.net>


So is the Kknife a special K'kree weapon? :)

Jimmy Simpson                        nimrodd@mail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405212730.024a9190@mail.verizon.net>

Hmm, my first reply got bounced, so here 'tis again.  :-)

Hi David,

Check out:

http://home.earthlink.net/~backslash/

Best regards,

Charles McKnight 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:30:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:30:06 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <000b01c1dc7a$655e8a60$f000a8c0@imogen>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020405224838.04445dd0@rollanet.org>

At 04:59 PM 4/4/02, you wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> > I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor
> > training.
>
>I used to work a a company that tried for (and got) ISO 9000/9001
>certification: it was easy-peasy!
>
>1) Have a documented procedure for everything
>2) Make sure all staff know where the latest  versions  of  those
>    documents are (ie. where on the PC server)
>
>The fact that we didn't actually follow those  procedures  (close
>scrutiny would have revealed they were unworkable anyhow)  didn't
>seem to matter.
>
>Its just a case of understanding the game.
>

Funny, the auditor who is checking the company I work for keeps wanting to 
see actual proof that we are following our procedures.


--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>

From: laning <laning@wizard.net>

     "The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:"

Sir,

     My take on your list:

     "The Ancients War"

     Perhaps.  Gramps and the Kiddies and the Grandkiddies had access to 
devices that make nukes look like waterballoons.  They still may have used 
them, no weapon is really ever obsolete.

     "Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani."

     Canon is littered with references to the Vilani "way" of war being 
brutally pragmatic.  IMHO, the Ziru Sirka would have used nukes early and 
often.  Then again, I have trouble believing the canonical description of 
the Interstellar War anyway.
     GT:RoF has the Vilani visiting Terra after the 2nd War.  These 
representatives of the ZS must have been either brain dead or traitors not 
to bring an accurate report back to Dingir from Sol.  After being shown a 
~10 billion humans on an industrialized world, the "brutally pragmatic" 
Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt.
     All the explanations about population levels, internal Vilani politics, 
blah, blah, blah, are just liberal doses of handwavium.  With the 
superioroty in maneuver drives and missile tech that RoF claims for them, 
the Ziro Sirka would have, could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it 
glowed.

     "Presumably the N Interstellar wars."

     The ZS certainly, "scorched earth" tactics during their long retreat.  
The TC maybe, after all they want to colonize and/or rule.  No need to mess 
up the planets you're taking over.

     "Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night."

     Agreed.  See the "Sack of Gasikan(?)", a world heavily nuked by the 
Vargr that recovers to found and lead a genocidal minded, anti-Vargr pocket 
empire.

     "Very early in Zhodani history."

     No.  Two Dark Ages in Zho history, one when a low tech "universal" 
empire collapses, ala Rome, China, etc. and another when space missions to 
Zhodane's moon brings back a dormant Ancient bio-weapon.  No nuke exchanges 
mentioned or intimated at all.
     This doesn't mean that the Zho's haven't used them on occasion 
elsewhere in the Consulate.

     "Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) 
from on Darrian."

     No.  The Maghurz(sp) was the result of two experiments involving Tanis, 
Darrian's primary, that horribly interacted with each other.  Pre-contact 
Darrian history was suprisingly peaceful, for humans.

     A few you forgot to mention;
     Kuzu - The Aslan's Second World War was nuclear, the Third one, which 
the arrival of "Pathfinder" prevented, was going to nuclear too.  Shame it 
didn't happen.
     Asmodeus - A balkanized Zho world in the Marches had a nuclear exchange 
sometime in the 1090's.  Guess the Thought Police were all out getting 
doughnuts.
     Unknown - IIRC, there's a balkanized world mentioned somewhere in canon 
that went nucelar.  The population there lived in domes and levels took 
quite a nose dive before the Marines could intervene.

     "This all leads me to believe that MAD isn't an effective strategy
against a geographically _very_ dispersed opponent."

     Perhaps, or maybe it's just damper technology.  I don't have Striker to 
hand, but IIRC dampers pretty much draw the fangs out of nukes.  How 
easy/hard would it be for PDFs to maintain damper coverage for an entire 
world?  Could such coverage be projected from orbit by naval vessels?  If 
so, the 3I could show up above some balkanized world with a nasty squabble 
taking place and declare a "no-nukes" zone with a couple of orbitting 
escorts.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3DF55.37819%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 10:59 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:

> "The Ancients War"
> 
> Perhaps.  Gramps and the Kiddies and the Grandkiddies had access to
> devices that make nukes look like waterballoons.  They still may have used
> them, no weapon is really ever obsolete.
> 
[snip]

Then of course we haven't considered nuclear dampers.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3B11B.377EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CAE6BBC.D28B1C82@the-spa.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406023413.0396cdf0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn says:
>That goes back to the old Gerlich AT guns of WWII.  I think the squeeze bore
>has pretty much fallen out of favor, replaced by the discarding sabot.

Whoa.  Thanks for the reminder.  I'd completely forgotten about those 
things, it's been so long.  Yeah, I was always pretty dubious about them.

The only ObTrav I can think of is that there is no ObTrav for the simple 
reason that firearms design in the 57th century has long since evolved to 
be as good as it can possibly get and every theoretical new twist has 
already been examined, and tried, and tried again.  Local conditions may 
vary from world to world, but I am talking about overall.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
In-Reply-To: <001101c1dd0f$c57c7340$f619f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406024845.0396aa80@pop.wizard.net>

Fred Ramen quotes a fascinating story about a Old Time Westerner getting 
700 miles in six days to a bank branch before the bank learned from its 
headquarters that it was kaput:

>(Of course, the probability that a modern common-stock corporation could
>operate given Traveller communications is slim, but what the hey...)

Stock exchanges on each world will tend to only trade shares of 
corporations that do their primary business in that system.  Megacorps will 
trade at a glacial pace compared to something like our own New York Stock 
Exchange.  You will make an appointment to meet with your buy/seller of 
Ling Standard Products, for instance.  And the buyer will be required to 
sign some forms to prove they've done a due diligence study of the risks, 
blah, blah.

Also, the megacorps and other star-spanning corporations will set up local 
subsidiaries for each world where they have significant operational 
presence or financial stake and the shares traded on the exchanges of that 
world will only be shares of the subsidiary, not the owning megacorp.

That's my fast answer.  Haven't pondered it beyond that.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <005f01c1dd29$f7b338c0$52200050@matt>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406025432.03968d20@pop.wizard.net>

Matt Bond sets the record straight:

>The cause of the Darrian Collapse wasn't nuclear weapons, it was the
>Maghiz... the after effects of an innocent science project to survey the
>Primary Star of Darrian, that inadvertently caused it to undergo a Nova-like
>hiccup...

Thank you, sir.  I knew it was much more exotic than nuclear warfare.  And 
I completely got wrong the angle of it being a war of any kind.  Yes, it 
seems to me that the Maghiz thing left a lot of speculation about the 
Grandfather or someone deciding not to let anyone go past TL 15.  If you 
prefer the secret conspiracy view of things, that is.  Or it could have 
been just one more example of mankind's hubris being too self destructive, 
like Ikaros having the wax melt on his wings.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 00:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406030132.03931080@pop.wizard.net>

Larsen Whipsnade very helpfully responded to and improved my list of 
nuclear warfare and MAD related canon:
<<<snip most of it>>>
>    Asmodeus - A balkanized Zho world in the Marches had a nuclear 
> exchange sometime in the 1090's.  Guess the Thought Police were all out 
> getting doughnuts.

Doughnuts, LOL!


>     Unknown - IIRC, there's a balkanized world mentioned somewhere in 
> canon that went nucelar.  The population there lived in domes and levels 
> took quite a nose dive before the Marines could intervene.
>
>     "This all leads me to believe that MAD isn't an effective strategy
>against a geographically _very_ dispersed opponent."
>
>     Perhaps, or maybe it's just damper technology.  I don't have Striker 
> to hand, but IIRC dampers pretty much draw the fangs out of nukes.  How 
> easy/hard would it be for PDFs to maintain damper coverage for an entire 
> world?  Could such coverage be projected from orbit by naval vessels?  If 
> so, the 3I could show up above some balkanized world with a nasty 
> squabble taking place and declare a "no-nukes" zone with a couple of 
> orbitting escorts.
I brought it up a little while ago with a friend who was over for face to 
face gaming.  His immediate reaction was "nuclear dampers".  He felt the 
same way I do about things being far too dispersed for MAD to make enough 
sense.  Well, actually his first reaction was "It's against the Imperial 
Code of War, nobody would ever get away with it" but then I explained my 
concern wasn't keeping order internally but grand strategy between nations 
at the level of interstellar empires.

I grabbed my trusty old (first edition, so no power points) Book 5 - High 
Guard and we looked up nuclear dampers.  First available at TL 12.  You 
have to get all the way from TL 6 or 7 to TL 12 without them, but still 
dealing nukes.  Repulsor bays come in at TL 10, and that will help a tiny 
bit.  Jump drives start at TL 9, so you have to get from 9 to 12 with the 
capability for interstellar delivery of nukes.  It would have been such a 
good answer too.  IIRC, either MT or second edition High Guard or maybe 
both did do some substantial revisions to TLs for weapons and 
screens.  Perhaps that will provide some support to the nuclear dampers 
theory.  But I don't think so.

The search continues, I guess.

--Laning



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 00:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 00:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEFOCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20406.005223.1e4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The weapon I'm trying to figure out is an equalizer for pedestrians.
> Anything that will actually stop or otherwise neutralize a moving vehicle
> that is about to violate a crosswalk will have a danger space that includes
> the pedestrian (like a LAW, M203, Panzerfaust, etc.) at typical engagement
> ranges.  Anything safe for the pedestrian will not actually stop the vehicle
> before impact -- the .44 magnum will shut down the engine, but the car will
> keep on rolling.  Many weapons will neutralize the driver, but again, the
> car will keep going.  It's a poser.

You need a personal force shield with the ability to isolate internal
and external inertial frames. Or else the ability to "lock" to bedrock
on impact.

I suspect it'd be "simpler" to do the former. But not by a lot.

Basicly, any momentum transfer to the volume within the field occurs
*uniformly*. So, since the forces are applied equal to all particles,
they don't have any apparent effect (much like it doesn't matter how
strong the gravity is *while* you are falling, just when you hit :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 01:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 01:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE9C2B.34116%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20406.005748.6n2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/1/02 10:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>> 
>> I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that difficult to
>> build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate power
>> battery.  
>
> I have yet to be convinced that such things will work, and be at all
> effective.  Particularly as the  strength of burst will be inversely
> proportional to the to the square of the distance.  Has anyone actually seen
> a demonstration where this works?  It should be rather easy to test.

The effects *depend* on non-linear effects. And the strength at a
distance depends a lot on the orientation.

Also, remember, the effect is *not* due to the strength of the field
(well, not entirely). It's due to the sudden *change* in field strength
too. 

> Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical martial
> arts 'death touch'.

I wouldn't expect one to have any great range. But if you can hide it
in a brief case, 10 meters is *plenty*.

>> I've a few comments and questions here:
>> 
>> 1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this
>> shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be
>> overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP?
>
> Gauss weapons won't need any complex and delicate circuitry if they're
> anything like railguns.  I don't expect them to be vulnerable to EMP anymore
> than a 1950s Chevy would be.

Yeah, I meant to comment on that myself.

"coilguns" will need some high speeds switchging circuitry. But
frankly, the power levels and timescales are such that EMP would be
minor compared to the fields inside the weapon every time it "cycled". 

"Railguns" don't have any circuitry more complicated than a light
switch. *NO* electronics in the weapon aside from any sighting gear.
And the magnetic fields the thing uses would make them have to be
mostly EMP prof anyway. 

EMP would affect them about as much as it'd affect a nail stuck to a
strong magnet. And for similar reasons. The *local* field would far
exceed the EMP.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 01:13:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 01:13:06 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701795.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20406.010602.9U3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn writes:
>> on 4/1/02 2:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
>> > 
>> > Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In
>> > fact, gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing
>> > the thing will short out all of its electronics, not to mention other
>> > nearby electronics. 
>> 
>> What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?
>
> Presumably, one strong, sharp pulse lasting roughly the length of time it 
> takes
> for a bullet to go the length of the barrel.  Not immediately inclined to
> figure out the total emitted energy, but I rather doubt that it's small.

It'd better be. Otherwise the gun is wasting energy emitting the noise.
The magnetic field will be constant. The electrical current flow is DC.
Though a rather sharp pulse, which may have a fair amount of ringing.

> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.

I have trouble picturing a coilgun as being *practical* in a man
portable size. Railguns are almost as bad, but at least you don't need
to switch all that power *repeatedly* and with precise timing dozens of
times per shot.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406025432.03968d20@pop.wizard.net>
References: <005f01c1dd29$f7b338c0$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020406065801.009f48d0@mindspring.com>

At 02:57 AM 4/6/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Matt Bond sets the record straight:
>
>>The cause of the Darrian Collapse wasn't nuclear weapons, it was the
>>Maghiz... the after effects of an innocent science project to survey the
>>Primary Star of Darrian, that inadvertently caused it to undergo a Nova-like
>>hiccup...
>
>Thank you, sir.  I knew it was much more exotic than nuclear warfare.  And 
>I completely got wrong the angle of it being a war of any kind.  Yes, it 
>seems to me that the Maghiz thing left a lot of speculation about the 
>Grandfather or someone deciding not to let anyone go past TL 15.  If you 
>prefer the secret conspiracy view of things, that is.  Or it could have 
>been just one more example of mankind's hubris being too self destructive, 
>like Ikaros having the wax melt on his wings.

I think the Maghiz was just another example of the Law of Unintended 
Consequences.  Better known as Murphy's Law.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204061516.DME00009@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug writes
>I think the Maghiz was just another example of the Law of 
>Unintended Consequences.  Better known as Murphy's Law.
>

BTW, I went looking around the web, and found another library 
data site, which had a bit on the Maghiz and the project that 
caused it.

http://www.seemann.ms/library/

Hopefully the owner of that site is on the TML somewhere...
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Combat Armor & Battle Dress
Message-ID: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>

--part1_19d.46939d.29e06ca1_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Hi,
   While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I discovered 
that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game (Imperial 
Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of the different 
models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
   Could someone help me out?
   Thanks :)
  -Ken Murphy-

--part1_19d.46939d.29e06ca1_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I discovered that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of the different models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Could someone help me out?
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_19d.46939d.29e06ca1_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>

From: laning <laning@wizard.net>

     "...looked up nuclear dampers.  First available at TL 12."

Sir,

     Well, that settles that theory.

     "You have to get all the way from TL 6 or 7 to TL 12 without them, but 
still dealing nukes.  Jump drives start at TL 9, so you have to get from 9 
to 12 with the capability for interstellar delivery of nukes."

     So until TL 12, MAD and geographical/astrographic dispersal are the 
trumps, usually.

     "It would have been such a good answer too.  IIRC, either MT or second 
edition High Guard or maybe both did do some substantial revisions to TLs 
for weapons and screens.  Perhaps that will provide some support to the 
nuclear dampers theory.  But I don't think so."

     The answer is a melange of MAD, dispersal, and dampers.  There are 
rarely single reasons for any given happenstance.
     I wonder, what if TL 12 is when dampers are small enough to allow them 
to be installed aboard ships?  Or the power requirements are finally 
"doable" in a hull?  Prior to TL 12, dampers could be massive, strategic 
systems that require multiple installations and oodles of generators.  At TL 
12, the technology gets miniaturized enough to be installed aboard ships, 
sort of like radar between the late 1930s and early 1940s.
     It's still a handwave, though.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 09:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20406.010602.9U3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 1:06 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.
> 
> I have trouble picturing a coilgun as being *practical* in a man
> portable size. Railguns are almost as bad, but at least you don't need
> to switch all that power *repeatedly* and with precise timing dozens of
> times per shot.

The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 09:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 09:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052324.g35NOjh06085@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <B8D46F07.37842%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 3:28 PM, Steven Hudson at shudson@lightspeed.ca wrote:

> 
> The K'kree seem to be the only major polity that believes in
> re-surfacing planets as a matter of policy. There's all sorts
> of amateurs that try and compete for the title, but mostly sanity
> (MAD) or cultural constraints interfere.
> 

I would expect that when it came to the K'kree, their opponents would adopt
the same attitude.  Something like the US policy on chemical weapons. "No
first use".  But if you use them, will give it right back and in spades.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 09:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 09:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn says:

[The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.]

Yes, and today, the power supply is much larger than can be carried.
We can get you a small battery made with an unobtanium core.

One problem that I see with a lot of sci-fi weapons is recoil. It's
a really nice idea to have a weapon that can fire a projectile at
4000 meters per second, but it's unlikely that we'll be able to
hold onto the weapon without a handwave generator.

In Traveller, I like to see weapons filling unique and obvious niches.

Gauss weapons are silent, and better at penetration than the ordinary 
slugthrower.  However, I feel that there should be a recoil penalty,
especially on full auto.  There are definitely recoil limits for 
humans (not just pain, but actually hitting something).

The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
from Book 4.  How about YTU?

In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a 
good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.

ObTrav: A Gauss weapon should be a better penetrator than a laser,
but the laser has no recoil.  I'm still trying to figure out the 
handwave that allows a plasma bolt to go more than a few centimeters
out of the barrel.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 11:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Seemann)
Date: Sat Apr  6 11:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E002330A27@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AA@mail.ahead.com>

Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:16:10 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

> BTW, I went looking around the web, and found another library 
> data site, which had a bit on the Maghiz and the project that 
> caused it.
> 
> http://www.seemann.ms/library/
> 
> Hopefully the owner of that site is on the TML somewhere...

I am, and BTW desperately trying to get time to do a major rewrite of
the site...

Did you want to ask me something?

Mark Seemann
mark@seemann.ms

"No matter how far you've come in the wrong direction - turn back!"
- Arabian proverb


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204061914.DML02410@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Mark Seemann" says
>
>I am, and BTW desperately trying to get time to do a major 
>rewrite of the site...
>
>Did you want to ask me something?
>

We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your 
site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which 
was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on 
the whole series of events?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 11:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr  6 11:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <B8D46F07.37842%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204052324.g35NOjh06085@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020406114851.009f8950@mindspring.com>

At 09:23 AM 4/6/02 -0800, you wrote:
>I would expect that when it came to the K'kree, their opponents would adopt
>the same attitude.  Something like the US policy on chemical weapons. "No
>first use".  But if you use them, will give it right back and in spades.

The actual policy is overwhelming response.  Hit is with *one* WMD, and we 
unload on you.  During the Persian Gulf war, the CIA found out that 
Saddam  was planning on using his chemical arsenal to slow down the units 
invading Kuwait. He was told, through neutral nations, that if he did that, 
every damn shack in Iraq would get a 30 kiloton kiss.

I imagine the Imperial policy towards the K'kree is similar..  "You go off 
on a single human world, and we will use you for Astroburger meat.  The Two 
Thousand Worlds will become the 2000 square feet, 'cause that is all your 
species will need.  What's worse, we'll let the Hivers in to play with you."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 12:01:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 12:01:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406145922.00cb7ee0@192.168.0.1>

At 12:41 PM 4/6/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Tod Glenn says:
[snip]
>The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
>from Book 4.  How about YTU?

I think people like Snubs because they have HEAP & HE ammo.


>In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a
>good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
>been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.

T4 has 'em.


----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  "When you see
a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not
wait until he has struck to crush him."
--- Franklin D. Roosevelt
----------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 12:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Seemann)
Date: Sat Apr  6 12:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
In-Reply-To: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E002330A28@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com>

Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:14:38 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

> We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your 
> site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which 
> was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on 
> the whole series of events?

While I can't remember the sequence of event, my library data tells me
there were indeed two projects: The Abh and Udh projects.

These library entries were taken from the Classic Traveller Alien Module
8: Darrians, but I can't remember the rest of the story. However, if you
really want me to, I can go look it up.

Mark Seemann
mark@seemann.ms

"No matter how far you've come in the wrong direction - turn back!"
- Arabian proverb


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 13:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 13:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B8D4A39D.37862%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 9:41 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@comcast.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn says:
> 
> [The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.]
> 
> Yes, and today, the power supply is much larger than can be carried.
> We can get you a small battery made with an unobtanium core.

If one follows the trend in batteries, they are becoming smaller and lighter
for the same power, and thus by extrapolation, batteries of the same size
and weight are becoming more powerful.
> 
> One problem that I see with a lot of sci-fi weapons is recoil. It's
> a really nice idea to have a weapon that can fire a projectile at
> 4000 meters per second, but it's unlikely that we'll be able to
> hold onto the weapon without a handwave generator.

But while projectile energy is a function of the mass of the projectile and
velocity squared, recoil is more a function of momentum.  A small,
lightweight projectile of high velocity has less felt recoil than than a
slower, more massive projectile of the same energy. Plus, with gauss
weapons, there is no added effect of the escaping gasses to add to recoil.

In a conventional firearm free recoils is defined as:

RE= Mg *((MbVb+MpVp)/Mg)^2 in Joules

where:  Mg is the mass of the gun
        Vg is the mass of the bullet
        Mp is the mass of the propellant
        Vp is the velocity of the propellant.  Typically
        noted as a constant (1200 m/s)

Let look at a gauss weapon versus conventional weapon.  In this case we'll
examine a 7.62x51mm rifle versus a gauss version with the same velocity and
bullet weight.

7.62x51mm M1A rifle
        Mass:               4.17 kg
        Bullet Mass:        0.01069 kg
        Bullet Velocity:    807.72 m/s
        Propellant mass:    0.00279 kg

for a free recoil energy of 34.3 J (about 25 ft-lbs)

The gauss version of this weapon generated only 17.7 J of free recoil (only
13 ft-lbs)

The 7.62x51mm has 3593 J (2650 ft-lbs) of energy at the muzzle.  Note that
this is not the energy actually delivered to the target.  This can be
derived from Mach's equation of retardation id we assume non-expanding
(ball) ammunition.  The amount of velocity lost in transiting the target
will allow us to calculate the total energy transferred.

Now lets look at Book 4's Gauss rifle:

Gauss Rifle
        Mass:               3.5 kg
        Bullet Mass:        0.004 kg
        Bullet Velocity:    1500 m/s

For a free recoil of 10.2 J (7.5 ft-lbs)
Muzzle energy is 4500 J (3,300 ft-lbs)

even though the gauss rifle is 500 g less massive than the M1A almost 1000
joules more muzzle energy and one third the free recoil energy

As a note, compare this with the free recoil of the M16 with a mass of 3.2
kg.  The 3.56 g (55 gn) bullet at 1000 m/s (3300 f/s) generates 14.9 J (11
ft-lbs) of free recoil energy with 1800 J (1330 ft-lbs) of energy at the
muzzle.


> 
> In Traveller, I like to see weapons filling unique and obvious niches.
> 
> Gauss weapons are silent, and better at penetration than the ordinary
> slugthrower.  

But gauss weapons are not silent, at least not in atmosphere.  They break
the sound barrier, and ballistic crash is a very. large component of firearm
noise.  MM booboo'd on this one.

> However, I feel that there should be a recoil penalty,
> especially on full auto.  There are definitely recoil limits for
> humans (not just pain, but actually hitting something).
> 
> The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
> from Book 4.  How about YTU?

Rarely seen except in special circumstances.  The range is just too limited.
Also, the penetration is just too goo.  The penetration of a HEAP round is
directly proportional to its diameter. A 100mm diameter projectile is just
not going to have much of a 'jet', and not much material to form the
penetrator.  It's a simple matter of physics.
> 
> In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a
> good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
> been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.
> 
> ObTrav: A Gauss weapon should be a better penetrator than a laser,
> but the laser has no recoil.  I'm still trying to figure out the
> handwave that allows a plasma bolt to go more than a few centimeters
> out of the barrel.

See my note above.  The gauss rifle generates a mere 10 J of free recoil
energy 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 13:33:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr  6 13:33:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
References: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <001801c1ddb2$e0895ba0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Seemann" <mark@seemann.ms>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 9:42 PM
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs


> Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:14:38 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> wrote:
>
> > We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your
> > site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which
> > was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on
> > the whole series of events?
>
> While I can't remember the sequence of event, my library data tells me
> there were indeed two projects: The Abh and Udh projects.
>
> These library entries were taken from the Classic Traveller Alien Module
> 8: Darrians, but I can't remember the rest of the story. However, if you
> really want me to, I can go look it up.
>
> Mark Seemann
> mark@seemann.ms

As I recall, one project was going to use two interfering beams of some type
or radiation to probe the interior of the Star, and the other was to use a
probe with some kind of ablative heat shielding.

Both projects were being conducted semi-secretly and independently. That is
to say that neither team was particularly aware of the other project.

Both projects happened to reach their final stage at the same time, and each
performed its experiment simultaneously.

Unfortunately the intersecting beams caused a reaction with the trail of by
products from the probes ablating heat shielding, the result of which was a
stellar 'burp' of devastating proportions in the Darrian system. The effects
of the pulse continued out into space, reaching the surrounding Darrian
colonies at lightspeed a few years later. Despite the precautions that had
been taken  by the colonies in the intervening period the effects were still
very serious, as much of the technical and manufacturing base had been
located on Darrian itself. Some of the larger colonies survived, but the
ability to construct starships had been lost, and only a few jump capable sh
ips had been spared devastation. after a few years of trying to maintain
contact with each other they fell into a localised long night for about 800
years, before Mire (IIRC) achieved the sustainable technology to construct
its own starships and re-establish contact.

By this time the virgin territory of the Spinward Marches was now occupied
by the Sword Worlders and Zhodani.

Subsequent revelation that the Zhodani had been watching the Darrians in
secret for centuries (due to the Zhodani fears that the Maghiz was the
result of some Darrian Super-weapon) has lead to the Darrian distrust of the
Zhodani, and their allying with the Imperium in the Frontier Wars.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 13:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr  6 13:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020406172606.9E61827AC3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16tyB5-0001Pv-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

laning <laning@wizard.net> wrote:

> > > I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> > > survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of war.
> 
> I can't buy into that at all, John.  Sorry.  Wars seem no more
> omnipresent today than they were in classical times.  The only
> relationships I would draw are the motivation for vengeance that
> connects the survivors to a mass slaughter, and Malthusian effects of
> reducing population pressure by reducing population.  Two forces that
> relationships that seem in opposition to each other.  Even if you
> massacre _all_ your enemy, even the children below age six, you will
> put yourself high on the rest of the world's Enemies To Destroy list. 
> There will come the day you are on the losing side in a war, and
> genocide is not a precedent that you'd like to have around.

I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because 
humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill 
that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate 
thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in 
Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost 
any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something 
separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before. 
 
The three examples above are only those examples I know of with 
the highest death toll, tens of thousands were also been killed in 
Indonesia in the 1960s and in the ruins of Yugoslavia.  

Combat lethality may have gone down, but death tolls in conflicts 
have certainly gone *way* up.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 14:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 14:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn explains recoil in the gauss rifle
<snip>

Yes, it's not completely silent.  There's still the ballistic 
crack - but - it would be difficult to locate the firer, 
especially in an environment where any planar surfaces 
(treelines, building faces) were along the line of flight. 
People who are not familiar with the sound will not know what 
it is at all - most inexperienced people don't associate that 
sound with gunfire (I've taken people into the pits, and 
after the cracks whip by overhead, the guest usually 
says, "What's that sound?").

At such a light projectile, even at such a high velocity, I'm 
not sure that it's that effective a penetrator, unless it's 
really long in proportion to its width - and when they say 
it's 4mm, that's not that much more narrow than 7mm - or 
5.56mm.  Change it to something like a 2mm dart with a body 
40mm long - now that's something.

But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a 
miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no 
visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kown:
>ObTrav: A Gauss weapon should be a better penetrator than a laser,
>but the laser has no recoil.  I'm still trying to figure out the
>handwave that allows a plasma bolt to go more than a few centimeters
>out of the barrel.

You forget.  It's a _high_tech_ plasma bolt.  :->

IMTU, laser weapons do minimal damage.  I just don't think they can 
transfer enough energy into their target during the very, very brief moment 
they touch their target.  Normally.  If the target is unmoving, you can do 
a lot.  I've been on the brink of drastically reducing the range of fusion 
and plasma weapons, too.  For reasons similar to your own.

I also reduce the damage on gauss weapons by a bit, because of the gauss 
weapons in equipment lists are smaller caliber than most gunpowder weapons 
in the same category.  A projectile is a projectile.  Whether it was made 
to go very fast by a gunpowder explosion or a magnetic acceleration doesn't 
make any difference, as long as it is going the same speed.

Tod Glenn has drawn my attention to the fact that there are probably 
profound differences between target ballistics with projectiles travelling 
faster than 1140 meters per second, and projectiles going slower.  I have 
been pondering whether or how to revise my house rules on gauss weapons 
accordingly.  Given the standard handwaves that the Traveller rules are 
based on, at least some personal gauss weapons could theoretically achieve 
those kinds of velocities.  But then you get into the recoil issue you 
already brought up.  As well as problems with the projectile breaking up if 
it strikes a raindrop or a leaf on its way to the intended target.

I think firearms will always have an important role in combat in the 
Traveller universe, even with the presence of laser, fusion, plasma, and 
gauss weapons.  Although gauss weapons could supplant firearms in most 
cases if they are designed to throw projectiles to the same spec as their 
gunpowder counterparts.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Combat Armor & Battle Dress
In-Reply-To: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406172440.0282cbb0@pop.wizard.net>

Ken Murphy wrote:
 >>>
>   While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I 
> discovered that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game 
> (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of the 
> different models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
>   Could someone help me out?
<<<
I have Imperial Encylcopedia but not Referee's Manual.  Maybe we could help 
each other replace our purchased-but-missing books with a photocopier?  My 
understanding is that Marc Miller sanctions that, because we did in fact 
pay to own those books.

Encyclopedia only seems to list generalized text descriptions of the two 
things.  Not that long, not of much use to somebody who already understands 
the concepts.

p 74 of Players Manual gives some armor values:
Combat Armor-11  armor value 8
Combat Armor-12  armor value 10
Combat Armor-14  armor value 18
Battle Dress-13  armor value 10
Battle Dress-14 armor value 18

IIRC, the 11,12, 13, and 14 represent the tech level that the particular 
model of armor becomes available.  Armor value of 8 roughly corresponds to 
a stone, brick, or starship interior wall.  AV 10 roughly corresponds to a 
concrete wall.  AV 18 is somewhere between a reinforced concrete wall and a 
heavy steel frame wall.  A starship bulkhead is 40 and hull is 
60.  Sandbags are 6.  I am just repeating these value equivalents, not 
necessarily agreeing with them.  :->

I have a vague memory of the reference you're talking about, it must be out 
there somewhere.  But the above is all I can find in MT.  :-<

It's possible my memory is from T4.  Their have some detailed descriptions 
of battle dress at least, at various tech levels.  Pretty decent work, 
really.  Hey, not _everything_ IG put out was regrettable!  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 2:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a
> miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no
> visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).
> 

What type of laser? What power range?  Are their any ionizing effects?
Certainly the laser makes noise when it hits the target.  Steam explosions
in tissue, the popping of superheated fat.

And ever looked at a later with LI gear?  Super obvious.  Like having a big
pointer going back to the firer.  And lasers are relatively easy to defeat,
or at least attenuate.  A few mils of highly reflective material sewn into
clothing, prismatic aerosols.  As mentioned in a previous post, lasers are
not good penetrators.  The problem is with the nature of lasers themselves.
The have to vaporize there way through materials.  But the vaporized
material itself can act as a hindrance to the laser.

Also, water (and by analogy tissue) is a great thermal sink. 55 calories to
raise 1 cc of water 1 degree centigrade, IIRC.

I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.

I would be particularly be interested in the amount of power required to
produce a lethal beam, and compare that to the energy required to drive a
gauss projectile at book 4 velocities.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: vehicle design
Message-ID: <3CAF83F0.FB931D1E@mail.cswnet.com>

I need a vehicle design for my starport/colony.

1.The vehicle is intended to be used for public transportation.

2. It is to fit into a circular tunnel, the diameter of which is
4 meters/4.376 yards. The vehicle must fit inside this.
Remember the math. Area of circle: 3.14*Radius squared

3. The tunnel runs for 10km/6.25miles, from the starport to the
main town.

4. The tunnel is sealed from the external environment. 

5. Would like to see something like the maglev's from 2300 or the 
train thingies from SPACE:1999.

6. Any design format/iteration is welcome.

7. If you give me a really good design, I'll name the tunnel after you.
:) :) :)

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406180955.0282f100@pop.wizard.net>

The inestimable though esteemed Mr. Whipsnade contributes:
>    The answer is a melange of MAD, dispersal, and dampers.  There are 
> rarely single reasons for any given happenstance.
>     I wonder, what if TL 12 is when dampers are small enough to allow 
> them to be installed aboard ships?  Or the power requirements are finally 
> "doable" in a hull?  Prior to TL 12, dampers could be massive, strategic 
> systems that require multiple installations and oodles of generators.  At 
> TL 12, the technology gets miniaturized enough to be installed aboard 
> ships, sort of like radar between the late 1930s and early 1940s.
>     It's still a handwave, though.
>
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Larsen

Though you present a reasonable approach, I only wish I were 
persuaded.  It's amusing when you think about it.  Each of us has different 
things in canon that we find objectionable.  Some are bothered by the 
evolutionary biology or the chemistry, others are bothered by plot holes, 
others again by problems with basic laws of physics or theoretical physical 
limits.  Yet we are each on the TML because of our genuine love for the 
game, and most of us either accept or cherish the main body of the 
work.  We all have different comfort levels over different things.  I am 
very comfortable with having thruster plates in as a handwave, yet bothered 
that laser weapons do "too much damage"?  LOL.  Descriptions of the 
Traveller time line are acceptable to some verbatim, regardless of any 
contradictions or loopholes.  It's just fiction, there's no point to trying 
to find deeper meaning.  I accept a lot of parts of it the same way, but am 
bothered by this particular thing and completely balk at 'the 
Rebellion'.  It is well and truly said:  YMMV.

Yeah, I was thinking about the possibility of nuclear dampers below TL 12 
just being bigger than the TL 12 ones that are in 100-ton ship's bays.  You 
might even be able to get that down to TL 9, when jump drives make their 
first appearance, who knows.  Though the very frequent references to 
threats of nuclear war or to past nuclear wars that vaguely affected lots 
of places yet seem to have specifically affected nowhere should mean that 
we'd see at least _one_ mention of dampers as strategic protection.  And we 
don't.  For any tech level.  And then we're told that the combatants in the 
Rebellion seem to be making liberal use of them and planets are getting 
hosed down.  If that wasn't feasible before, what has changed that makes it 
feasible now?  (Besides who is doing most of the writing of the books.  :-)

I'm stumped here.  I need something to say when I start my next Traveller 
game.  And did I mention one of my players has a doctorate from MIT on the 
subject of nuclear warfare?  It's _going_ to come up.  Guess I'll turn the 
tables and ask him to help come up with a rationalization before he can ask 
me for one.  It would help even more if he'd read anything besides the 
original three LBBs back in 1977.  I'll post here and let you all know what 
he contributes.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D4C656.3788B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 3:07 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> 
> Tod Glenn has drawn my attention to the fact that there are probably
> profound differences between target ballistics with projectiles travelling
> faster than 1140 meters per second, and projectiles going slower.

Actually, it's 1450 m/s.  An the differences in wounding are not
theoretical, they are proven.  I direct you to "Antipersonnel Weapons"
published by SIPRI (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute) which
has a very good section of the effects of hypervelocity (1450+ m/s)
projectiles.  There have also been a few writeups in past issues of the
"Journal of Wound Ballistics".  I'll look for the articles and get you a
cite.

> I have 
> been pondering whether or how to revise my house rules on gauss weapons
> accordingly.  Given the standard handwaves that the Traveller rules are
> based on, at least some personal gauss weapons could theoretically achieve
> those kinds of velocities.  But then you get into the recoil issue you
> already brought up.

See my earlier post. Gauss weapon have significantly less free recoil energy
than CPR guns.  Just using the example from my previous post.  If we take
two identical weapons (in the example, M1As), one CPR the other gauss, each
firing an identical bullet at identical velocities.

M1A Standard:   34 J of free recoil
M1A Gauss:      17.7 J of free recoil

The Traveller Book 4 gauss rifle fires a 4g 4mm projectile at 1500 m/s.  The
weapons masses 3.5 kg, thus we have a free recoil energy of only 10.2 J, 2/3
the recoil of the M16.  The M16 has 1800 J of muzzle energy compared with
the gauss rifle's 4500 J.

If the gauss rifle is a coil gun (as many have suggested, and the
description from book 4 seems to fit)  the projectile must be ferromagnetic.
Let's assume elemental iron to make it easy.  Iron has a density of 7.86
g/cc.  We know from 'canon' that the gauss round is 4mm in diameter and
masses 4 g.  That means a projectile that is 4cm long, a 1:10 aspect ratio.

Looking a Mach's equation, these rounds are going to decelerate quickly once
they hit flesh, and probably cause wounding that is way beyond anything
caused by a conventional firearm.

> As well as problems with the projectile breaking up if
> it strikes a raindrop or a leaf on its way to the intended target.

That's a function of bullet composition.  If we assume a monolithic
projectile of iron, I doubt we'd observe such effects.  The bullets where
this phenomenon is observers are copper jacketed lead bullets.
> 
> I think firearms will always have an important role in combat in the
> Traveller universe, even with the presence of laser, fusion, plasma, and
> gauss weapons.  Although gauss weapons could supplant firearms in most
> cases if they are designed to throw projectiles to the same spec as their
> gunpowder counterparts.
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAMENHCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn asks
[I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.]

See http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/docs/98-165.pdf
for calculations on how to do damage via vaporization (there is a note that
vaporization is probably not necessary for a kill).  This is for missiles,
but you could make some assumptions about a human (just use the heat of
vaporization for water).  The primary advantage on firing on a human seems
to be that you don't need a 1 meter wide beam.

I've seen an industrial laser penetrate a stack of layered fabric over two
meters thick in a split second.  It was being used to cut cloth to the
pattern desired.  Penetration seems to be a matter of spot size and
energy deposited.  I was told that the same laser would easily, and just
as rapidly, slice a human into two strangers with the same speed and
efficiency.

The optimum wavelength is largely a matter of what is the optimum
wavelength in the atmosphere, which might vary some by planet.  Here
on earth, the optimum wavelength seems to be 1.3 nm, which can be produced
either by the COIL (chlorine/oxygen/iodine) or DF overtone (two deuterium
flouride lasers tuned to create a single overtone).

In fact, it is now claimed by the Space Based Laser documentation, that
a satellite-based laser could be used to strike individual ground targets
as small as a man. They claim now that there would be virtually no loss
if they were to use the DF overtone laser. Keep in mind that the beam
diameter at that distance would be 1 meter, and the fluence would be
high enough to completely vaporize 3mm thickness of mild steel in a
few milliseconds.

They are making the assumption now that the enemy *will* try and make
the target reflective.  Most humans, unless armored, will make a much
more cooperative target for lasers operating in the 1.3nm region.

Yes, someone will see this beam using NVG and perhaps even thermal
sights.  But such weapons can also be used with a rotating mirror at
much lower power levels to rapidly and randomly cover an area with
high enough energy to permanently damage even passive optics like
a simple pair of binoculars, and to permanently blind any human unlucky
enough to be looking in the wrong direction.

Maybe we would all be reduced to blindly wandering about with Laning's
battle axe, looking for each other.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAF897A.E39681FF@premier.net>


"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> 
> From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
> 
>      "...looked up nuclear dampers.  First available at TL 12."
> Sir,
> 
>      Well, that settles that theory.
> 
>      "You have to get all the way from TL 6 or 7 to TL 12 without them, but
> still dealing nukes.  Jump drives start at TL 9, so you have to get from 9
> to 12 with the capability for interstellar delivery of nukes."
> 
>      So until TL 12, MAD and geographical/astrographic dispersal are the
> trumps, usually.

Given that starship laser turrets are available at TL 7 (HG2, page 25,
they add a point-defense wild card to the deck.

It would seem that the authors of HG2 anticipated some aspects of
SDI.... ;-)

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406185112.00ab8e30@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn, after writing a fairly impressive summary of lasers as weapons, 
says:
>I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
>discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
>methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.
>
>I would be particularly be interested in the amount of power required to
>produce a lethal beam, and compare that to the energy required to drive a
>gauss projectile at book 4 velocities.

I second the motion.  And please consider the laser's value as a penetrator 
of armor?  The old timey steel kind, the contemporary kevlar kind, and 
whatever you feel is useful about the unobtainium kinds posited for higher 
tech levels.

Tod, your previous analysis of felt recoil vs muzzle energy, etc. Just 
found its way onto my hard drive.

Oh, I should mention that attempts to post to tml@travellercentral.com were 
giving me error 550 messages and bouncing a short while ago.  Roughly 1830 
eastern time.  Duration of problem seemed to be less than half an hour, so 
just a burp, I guess.  Possibly the mail server daemon was really busy at 
the time, I dunno.  Probably old news to you.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:02:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:02:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
In-Reply-To: <001801c1ddb2$e0895ba0$52200050@matt>
References: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406185801.00abbec0@pop.wizard.net>

Regarding what devastated Darrian, Matt Bond enlightens us:

>As I recall, one project was going to use two interfering beams of some type
>or radiation to probe the interior of the Star, and the other was to use a
>probe with some kind of ablative heat shielding.
>
>Both projects were being conducted semi-secretly and independently. That is
>to say that neither team was particularly aware of the other project.
>
>Both projects happened to reach their final stage at the same time, and each
>performed its experiment simultaneously.

If you're a player or referee even halfway inclined to make use of 
conspiracies, then this extreme coincidence should be enough to excite your 
interest.



><<<snip>>>
>Subsequent revelation that the Zhodani had been watching the Darrians in
>secret for centuries (due to the Zhodani fears that the Maghiz was the
>result of some Darrian Super-weapon) has lead to the Darrian distrust of the
>Zhodani, and their allying with the Imperium in the Frontier Wars.

Well, whether it was a conspiracy, an accident, or a weapons experiment, 
the Darrians do seem to end up knowing how to produce a Darrian 
SuperWeapon.  I like to think of it as the gods punishing Ikaros for 
forgetting his place.  Or Grandfather keeping precocious humans from 
becoming too troublesome (to other sophs in general?  to some project of 
Grandfather's?  to Grandfather himself?).  And I delight in stirring my 
players to worry about all these possibilities without knowing which is the 
truth.  Which doesn't make me an Evil Referee.  I'm hardly fiendishly 
clever enough for that.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:12:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:12:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0378F.26380.9082ED@localhost>

On 6 Apr 2002 at 15:11, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Also, water (and by analogy tissue) is a great thermal sink. 55 calories
> to raise 1 cc of water 1 degree centigrade, IIRC.

I think that's 1 calorie. However it's 4.2J to raise 1g of water 1 
degree Celsius. Then there's the .226 J/g to turn boiling water into 
steam, and then about 2 J/g to raise a gram of steam's temperature by 1 
degree. You'd be looking at about 500 J/g to turn flesh into not very 
hot (or high pressure) steam.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:13:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:13:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0378F.6868.90823C@localhost>

On 6 Apr 2002 at 6:59, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      A few you forgot to mention;
>      Kuzu - The Aslan's Second World War was nuclear, the Third one,
>      which 
> the arrival of "Pathfinder" prevented, was going to nuclear too.  Shame
> it didn't happen.
>      Asmodeus - A balkanized Zho world in the Marches had a nuclear
>      exchange 
> sometime in the 1090's.  Guess the Thought Police were all out getting
> doughnuts.
>      Unknown - IIRC, there's a balkanized world mentioned somewhere in
>      canon 
> that went nucelar.  The population there lived in domes and levels took
> quite a nose dive before the Marines could intervene.

How about the Ilelesh Revolt? Didn't the Imperium scrub the sector 
capital clean of life as an example to others?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C656.3788B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406191311.02844050@pop.wizard.net>

Wonderful.  Tod is doing a good job of convincing me of the superiority of 
gauss weapons to gunpowder weapons...just as my character in Tod's game is 
in an already terrifying combat situation--and the bad guys mostly use 
gauss weapons while our guys use mostly gunpowder.  Ruh roh.

This is on top of the various other combat advantages the bad guys have 
already established for themselves.  And I freely admit that our side could 
have done a better job of matching them in a lot of ways.  Part of our 
failure to do so is because we were so busy roleplaying instead of being 
munchkins.  :->

--Laning aka Krowaka


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <3CAF897A.E39681FF@premier.net>
References: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406192030.02845720@pop.wizard.net>

John Groth reminds us of another card on the table:

>Given that starship laser turrets are available at TL 7 (HG2, page 25,
>they add a point-defense wild card to the deck.
>
>It would seem that the authors of HG2 anticipated some aspects of
>SDI.... ;-)

Hm.  I was just about to proclaim laser-based missile defenses as the 
salvation of sophonts everywhere over the past centuries.  Regardless of 
real life opinions on the topic, that seems satisfying enough for Traveller 
purposes.  But there's still that nagging thing about the Rebellion being 
able to get away with nuclear bombardments when nobody previously 
could.  This should be good enough for most of my players, as they aren't 
familiar with Traveller to begin with and there is no Rebellion 
IMTU.  Practical problem solved at least for now.  Intellectual problem 
still a bit lingering.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 17:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr  6 17:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020407112641.A1980@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
> discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
> methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.

The best I've seen (and calculated) is to produce a train of pulses
lasting a millisecond or so, with pulses a few tens of microseconds
apart.  The collimation requirements are pretty stringent thought; for
this application you want to be able to focus on a region just a
couple of millimetres across.  Each pulse need only have a few tens of
joules, and the pulse train as a whole needs a kJ or so to give
similar penetration to a 9mm pistol bullet.  With more energy, you can
obviously do more damage, relax the focus requirements, and/or get
better penetration.

Such a weapon would most certainly *not* be silent.  At the target the
'bang' of superheated vapour would be far louder than the
corresponding sound of a bullet impact; more like the firing of an
unsuppressed slugthrower.  The pulses themselves would also disturb
the air through which they pass, but this would be a more diffuse and
dificult to localise sound.

Wavelengths near visible light are best, since most other frequencies
are absorbed by the atmosphere more strongly.  At handgun ranges this
probably isn't a problem though.  I would suggest near-UV.  This also
diminishes the danger to the retinas of unintended targets from beam
scattering, since UV is absorbed by the cornea (I think).


> I would be particularly be interested in the amount of power required to
> produce a lethal beam, and compare that to the energy required to drive a
> gauss projectile at book 4 velocities.

Very similar.  Both look to be in the 5-10 kJ range for effective
antipersonnel use.  The laser would have slightly lower wounding
potential and worse armour penetration, but may need only energy and
has no recoil at all.  It would probably also be more adaptable to
various uses (e.g. longer-duration cutting or drilling).  The gauss
weapon would probably have better wounding potential and lower recoil,
but needs both physical ammunition and energy.  Maintenance may be
more of a problem than chemical slugthrowers in both cases, unless
technology is sufficiently advanced.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
References: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020406185801.00abbec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <002901c1dde3$af25f6a0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "laning" <laning@wizard.net>
> Well, whether it was a conspiracy, an accident, or a weapons experiment,
> the Darrians do seem to end up knowing how to produce a Darrian
> SuperWeapon.

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately if you are on the other side...) the
devastation caused by the Maghiz destroyed all records of one of the
experiments (the interfering beams), so until the players discover the
necessary evidence of the second experiment in the adventure in the back of
Alien Module 8: Darrians, the Darrian Starkiller weapon is pure bluff. They
believed it was purely due to the probe, and tough that their failure was
due to imperfect records of the probes construction. They managed to
convince their neighbours through a rigged demonstration that they still had
the technology to induce a mini-nova. (I seem to recall that they used some
recovered Tech-G sensors to locate a star that was slightly unstable anyway
to do their demo on, that lesser sensors would think was stable).

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] pilot specs
In-Reply-To: <20020405.205600.-3247.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> What are the real life size minimum and maximum hight 
> requirements for a combat fighter pilot?

In general the minimums are set so that you can see over 
the dashboard, and the maximums are set so that your knees 
don't get cut-off when you use the bang-seat. 

What those measurements are depend on what combat aircraft
your force is flying. 

Frankie







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:32:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:32:56 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> war.

I don't see it making any change, as this unwillingness to
slaughter is actually pretty normal and has been throughout
history.

Not that _everybody_ has this unwllingness, but the vast majority
of people do, including most soldiers.

> People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.

Actually, no. That only happens against psychotic invaders who
you know will kill you if you surrender.

If you are fighting "normal" invaders, the majority of the people
don't fight at all, as they don't care who is in charge, one lord
is the same as another.

_Most_ peoples stop fighting when their armies have been defeated
or have surrendered, and most armies stop fighting when they
believe they cannot win.  They may not have been defeated at that
point.

Only fanatics, or people who have nothing to lose, such as those
who are guilty of war crimes so know they will be put to death,
keep fighting.

> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

And just as any other piece of propaganda, the descriptions in
the Old Testament were somewhat overblown.
It was common to ascribe such tactics to the barbarians of the
past, and the enemies of the present. If all the peoples and
towns that supposedly had been put to the sword actually were,
the population of the world would have taken much longer.

> It's barbaric, I know.

It's also extremely wasteful, and almost guarantees that you will
fail in the short term.

The "Thousand Year Reich", an organization that was oppressive
and actively treied to eliminate their enemiew, lasted less than
a couple of decades.

The Roman "Empire", which in the main did not go round trying to
destroy peoples, but was largely tolerant and inclusive, lasted
several centuries.  It finally fell because it became oppressive
and intolerant.

> But if you want to get the message across that Our
> Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you
> have to do.

To be an effective invader you do _not_ want to get across the
idea "We won and You lost", you want to get across the idea that
"We, including you, all Won, and the bad guys who used to rule
you lost"

> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.

This is probably outweighed by the loss of the planet as an
industrial base

Not to mention that the M.A.D doctrine is even more effective in
the stellar arena.

As soon as you do this without "just cause" you have made enemies
of every other polity in the galaxy (except perhaps the K'Kree
who are already in this position).

Also it is _very_ easy to set off a few nukes on your capital
world, even if it is far behind the frontlines, and your Navy
can't prevent it without isolating the capital from all trade,
which would have even _more_ effect than the nuke, as shown by
the aftermath of Sept 11th.

> Their ships might have to chase those missiles instead of
firing on
> the attackers.

Very unlikely, a few nukes on the planet are not worth losing the
battle over, and anyway, the planet is likely to have better
anti-missile defences than the ships.

> And how many nukes does it really take to lay
> waste to an advanced industrial society?

A huge number.

More than the the arsenals of China, the USA, and the USSR put
together when at maximum strength, in fact.

Unless you have a few "big" enough to crack the crust, and if you
have that sort of capabilty, _nobody_ is dsafe, and it's even
less likely anyone will use the capability in a normal
(non-xenophobe) war.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] pilot specs
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <20020405.205600.-3247.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406224027.00cc5150@192.168.0.1>

At 03:41 PM 4/7/2002 +1200, Frank Pitt wrote:
>generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> > What are the real life size minimum and maximum hight
> > requirements for a combat fighter pilot?
>In general the minimums are set so that you can see over
>the dashboard, and the maximums are set so that your knees
>don't get cut-off when you use the bang-seat.

The Maximum mentioned is what kept my brother out of the Air Force.
He was *that close* to signing up till he was measured from hip to knee.
3/4" too long for the FB-111.

>What those measurements are depend on what combat aircraft
>your force is flying.

-----------------------------------------------------
"Freedom is man's capacity to take a hand in his own
development. It is our capacity to mold ourselves."
-- Rollo May  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
-----------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CF6F3E.3427B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20406.200715.2D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find anything.  OK,
> I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite terrorist building
> these?

Because *being* a Luddite, they aren't familar with the tech?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:44:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:44:11 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20406.204246.6R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/6/02 1:06 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.
>> 
>> I have trouble picturing a coilgun as being *practical* in a man
>> portable size. Railguns are almost as bad, but at least you don't need
>> to switch all that power *repeatedly* and with precise timing dozens of
>> times per shot.
>
> The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
> build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.

For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:46:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:46:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Combat Armor & Battle Dress
References: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <DAV17bZEHQQE9OFLkxt00005c25@hotmail.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_010A_01C1DDBC.7A6DF060
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gentlebeing Murphy asks regarding weight and volume of Combat Armor and =
Battledress in MegaTraveller.=20


Armor                            TL            Volume            Weight  =
          Cr

Combat Armor 11            11                2.9                18       =
         20k
Combat Armor 12            12                1.8                10       =
         30k
Combat Armor 14            14                0.7                6        =
          60k
Battle Dress     13            13                3.8                26   =
             200k
Battle Dress     14            14                2.7                12   =
             350k
Cmbt Env Suit                  10                 6                 2.0  =
              1,000

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was also of extremely limited value.   =
...(T)he steers were incapable of understanding what was happening and =
articulating their concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. =
Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

------=_NextPart_000_010A_01C1DDBC.7A6DF060
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Gentlebeing Murphy asks regarding weight and volume =
of Combat=20
Armor and Battledress in MegaTraveller. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Armor&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
TL&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Volume&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Weight&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Cr</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Combat Armor 11&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2.9&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
18&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;20k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Combat Armor 12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
1.8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;30k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Combat Armor&nbsp;14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;60k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Battle =
Dress&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;13&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
13&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3.8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;26&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;200k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Battle =
Dress&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2.7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;350k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Cmbt Env=20
Suit&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2.0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1,000</FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:texasredshift@hotmail.com">texasredshift@hotmail.com</A><B=
R><A=20
href=3D"mailto:billws@sysmatrix.net">billws@sysmatrix.net</A></FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The shooting of the steers was also of extremely =
limited=20
value.&nbsp;&nbsp; ...(T)he steers were incapable of understanding what =
was=20
happening and articulating their concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by =
Evan P.=20
Marshall and Edwin J.=20
Sanow</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_010A_01C1DDBC.7A6DF060--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <20406.204246.6R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c1ddf0$419a3800$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>

> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.

Or Ha-Un batteries (Batteries made from a mixture of Handwavium and
Unobtainium)...

<g>

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 21:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 21:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20406.204246.6R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D51C82.37945%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 8:42 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
>> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
>> build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.
> 
> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.

??

Why permanent magnets.  A rialgun doesn't use magnetic fields in the manner
of a coil gun.  We just have two parallel rails and the armature
(projectile).  We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
in the loop and acting on the armature.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 21:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 21:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <000b01c1ddf0$419a3800$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <B8D51CD6.37946%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 8:54 PM, Matthew Bond at mattgbond@ntlworld.com wrote:

>> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
>> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.
> 
> Or Ha-Un batteries (Batteries made from a mixture of Handwavium and
> Unobtainium)...

Assuming you are using batteries.  Perhaps a small, highly efficient
compulsator?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 21:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 21:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEPIGEAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Sound like a reprise of the old Golden Bridgers and the 
relentless pursuit practitioners.  Historically, leaders tended 
to publicly Golden Bridegers but the chronicles tend to show 
more then one slaughter of routed losers.  I would tend to think 
that term, (the day of battles), a routed side tended to get 
slaughtered afterwards you were pretty safe


OB Trav

Mercs would tend to be golden Bridgers.
The Imperium would tend to believe in relentless pursuit, u
until you acknowledge you are thumped

(1)  golden bridge = extend a golden bridge to a fleeing enemy  

jml

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> war.

I don't see it making any change, as this unwillingness to
slaughter is actually pretty normal and has been throughout
history.

Not that _everybody_ has this unwllingness, but the vast majority
of people do, including most soldiers.

> People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.

Actually, no. That only happens against psychotic invaders who
you know will kill you if you surrender.

If you are fighting "normal" invaders, the majority of the people
don't fight at all, as they don't care who is in charge, one lord
is the same as another.

_Most_ peoples stop fighting when their armies have been defeated
or have surrendered, and most armies stop fighting when they
believe they cannot win.  They may not have been defeated at that
point.

Only fanatics, or people who have nothing to lose, such as those
who are guilty of war crimes so know they will be put to death,
keep fighting.

> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

And just as any other piece of propaganda, the descriptions in
the Old Testament were somewhat overblown.
It was common to ascribe such tactics to the barbarians of the
past, and the enemies of the present. If all the peoples and
towns that supposedly had been put to the sword actually were,
the population of the world would have taken much longer.

> It's barbaric, I know.

It's also extremely wasteful, and almost guarantees that you will
fail in the short term.

The "Thousand Year Reich", an organization that was oppressive
and actively treied to eliminate their enemiew, lasted less than
a couple of decades.

The Roman "Empire", which in the main did not go round trying to
destroy peoples, but was largely tolerant and inclusive, lasted
several centuries.  It finally fell because it became oppressive
and intolerant.

> But if you want to get the message across that Our
> Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you
> have to do.

To be an effective invader you do _not_ want to get across the
idea "We won and You lost", you want to get across the idea that
"We, including you, all Won, and the bad guys who used to rule
you lost"

> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.

This is probably outweighed by the loss of the planet as an
industrial base

Not to mention that the M.A.D doctrine is even more effective in
the stellar arena.

As soon as you do this without "just cause" you have made enemies
of every other polity in the galaxy (except perhaps the K'Kree
who are already in this position).

Also it is _very_ easy to set off a few nukes on your capital
world, even if it is far behind the frontlines, and your Navy
can't prevent it without isolating the capital from all trade,
which would have even _more_ effect than the nuke, as shown by
the aftermath of Sept 11th.

> Their ships might have to chase those missiles instead of
firing on
> the attackers.

Very unlikely, a few nukes on the planet are not worth losing the
battle over, and anyway, the planet is likely to have better
anti-missile defences than the ships.

> And how many nukes does it really take to lay
> waste to an advanced industrial society?

A huge number.

More than the the arsenals of China, the USA, and the USSR put
together when at maximum strength, in fact.

Unless you have a few "big" enough to crack the crust, and if you
have that sort of capabilty, _nobody_ is dsafe, and it's even
less likely anyone will use the capability in a normal
(non-xenophobe) war.

Frankie


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 22:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 22:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 7 Apr 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <o8pvaugdbvlibj4ikplrj5seooqrgqoqv7@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - More internal changes, plus all of the pages have been updated to
   reflect our new contact address(es), at freelancetraveller.com. The old
   Yahoo! address will continue to work for a while, but you will get
   faster responses by writing to the new addresses. 

 - John T. Kwon brings us a design for the Virtus-class Solomani
   Infiltrator. Read it in The Shipyard. 

 - Joe Webb brings us another JTAS Adventure Contest winner. You can read
   Sex and the Single Vargr in Active Measures. 

 - Kate Thumann brings us the first Traveller "Choose-Your-Own-Adventure",
   Scout's Honor. You can download it from Active Measures. 

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the (working!) feedback form at
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/infocenter/feedbackform.html.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to visit our site
and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our existence
possible.



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 23:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Sat Apr  6 23:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4A39D.37862%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIEANDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

Tod,

RE= Mg *((MbVb+MpVp)/Mg)^2 in Joules

where:  Mg is the mass of the gun
        Vg is the mass of the bullet
        Mp is the mass of the propellant
        Vp is the velocity of the propellant.  Typically
        noted as a constant (1200 m/s)


What is Mb?  Vb? in this equation.

Jusitn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 23:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 23:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204070730.g377U0h29022@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
...
>> The K'kree seem to be the only major polity that believes in
>> re-surfacing planets as a matter of policy. There's all sorts
>> of amateurs that try and compete for the title, but mostly sanity
>> (MAD) or cultural constraints interfere.
>
>I would expect that when it came to the K'kree, their opponents would adopt
>the same attitude.  Something like the US policy on chemical weapons. "No
>first use".  But if you use them, will give it right back and in spades.

  Even the K'kree seem to have opted to be harshest when the suffering 
will be effectively monopolized by their vict^h^h opponents.

  ObTrav: never trust a herd animal? :>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 23:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 23:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIEANDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8D53600.37962%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 11:16 PM, Justin Bunnell at jbunnell@yahoo.com wrote:

> Tod,
> 
> RE= Mg *((MbVb+MpVp)/Mg)^2 in Joules
> 
> where:  Mg is the mass of the gun
> Vg is the mass of the bullet
> Mp is the mass of the propellant
> Vp is the velocity of the propellant.  Typically
> noted as a constant (1200 m/s)
> 
> 
> What is Mb?  Vb? in this equation.

Oops.  Mb= mass of bullet, Vb is velocity of bullet.

I should proofread more carefully.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 00:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 00:05:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Combat Armor & Battle Dress
References: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CAFFDF2.801EA808@virgin.net>

--------------85F01DDED7191BA32DD8BE91
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:

>   Hi,
>   While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I
> discovered that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game
> (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of
> the different models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
>   Could someone help me out?
>   Thanks :)
>  -Ken Murphy-

If you are in the uk, i can help easily as i have a spare (well actually
it is my only one but i don't use it).  Otherwise it will take a few
days.

Simon


--------------85F01DDED7191BA32DD8BE91
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp;
Hi,</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp; While going through
my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I discovered that I no longer
have that 3rd book from the boxed game (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which
gives the weight and volume of the different models of Combat Armor and
Battle Dress.</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp; Could someone help
me out?</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp; Thanks :)</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</font></font></blockquote>

<p><br>If you are in the uk, i can help easily as i have a spare (well
actually it is my only one but i don't use it).&nbsp; Otherwise it will
take a few days.
<p>Simon
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--------------85F01DDED7191BA32DD8BE91--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 00:26:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 00:26:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>

laning wrote:

> <snippety, snip, snip>
> IMTU, laser weapons do minimal damage.
> <snippety, snip, snip>
> I also reduce the damage on gauss weapons by a bit, because of the gauss
> weapons in equipment lists are smaller caliber than most gunpowder weapons
> in the same category.  A projectile is a projectile.  Whether it was made
> to go very fast by a gunpowder explosion or a magnetic acceleration doesn't
> make any difference, as long as it is going the same speed.
>
> --Laning

Just to confirm things here, the Gauss/Rail/coilgun weapons DOES NOT fire the
projectile at similar speeds to 'gunpowder' weapons.  The last i heard (and
this was about 5+ years ago), current (at the time) railgun technology was
managing to accelerate a small plastic pellet (about 1" across IIRC) to over
22km/s (declared) and it was punching through 6" steel plating as if it were a
shaped charge.  We are now 5+ years on so that will have improved somewhat.
Now extrapolate on a few millennia and put the new improved kit in a portable
form and you have the Gauss Gun.

The drawback are that, due to the inherent speed of the projectile, you will
produce a sonic 'boom' (albeit a small one) in all but the 'rarest'
atmospheres.  Also, I would expect the extreme pressure waves to form minute
contrails (someone correct me here if i am floundering into strange
territories) and therefore make it relatively easy to detect where the shots
were originating from (but also acting like a form of tracer to the firer as
well).

Now, using the good ok EnergyK=0.5 x M x V x V, I would approximate that a 4g
needle from a gauss gun at 20 km/s would, theoretically, gave about 0.8 MJ of
kinetic energy, enough to knock anyone off their feet and punch a big hole in
everything apart from hulls and bulkheads (gearheads can you please confirm
both calculations and also what it should/shouldn't penetrate :-) )

A good example of this would be the railgun effects in 'Eraser' (a s**t film
apart from that bit though)

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 00:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 00:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20020405224838.04445dd0@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <3CB00424.9F0823FB@virgin.net>

Richard Wilson wrote:

> At 04:59 PM 4/4/02, you wrote:
> >Mark Urbin wrote:
> > > I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> > > I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor
> > > training.
> >
> >I used to work a a company that tried for (and got) ISO 9000/9001
> >certification: it was easy-peasy!
> >
> >1) Have a documented procedure for everything
> >2) Make sure all staff know where the latest  versions  of  those
> >    documents are (ie. where on the PC server)
> >
> >The fact that we didn't actually follow those  procedures  (close
> >scrutiny would have revealed they were unworkable anyhow)  didn't
> >seem to matter.
> >
> >Its just a case of understanding the game.
> >
>
> Funny, the auditor who is checking the company I work for keeps wanting to
> see actual proof that we are following our procedures.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> Richard Wilson

As someone who has done ISO 9000 series to death (and back) it basically boils
down to:

1.    Say how you intend to meet the ISO requirements
2.    Prove that you are doing what you say in 1.

the accreditors are not concerned (neither should they be) with how you meet
the ISO requirement, only that you have a system in place to meet them and
that you use the system that you have said you will.

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 01:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 01:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 12:26 AM, Si at mr.fingle@virgin.net wrote:

> 
> Just to confirm things here, the Gauss/Rail/coilgun weapons DOES NOT fire the
> projectile at similar speeds to 'gunpowder' weapons.  The last i heard (and
> this was about 5+ years ago), current (at the time) railgun technology was
> managing to accelerate a small plastic pellet (about 1" across IIRC) to over
> 22km/s (declared) and it was punching through 6" steel plating as if it were a
> shaped charge.  We are now 5+ years on so that will have improved somewhat.
> Now extrapolate on a few millennia and put the new improved kit in a portable
> form and you have the Gauss Gun.

A railgun will fire the projectile at a velocity proportional to the current
applied.  You could build a railgun to fire a projectile at a lower velocity
of required.  The current military designs for railguns employ an aluminum
sabor to propel a standard tank gun penetrator at something like 2
km/second.  Not bad for a 15 lbs projectile.
> 
> The drawback are that, due to the inherent speed of the projectile, you will
> produce a sonic 'boom' (albeit a small one) in all but the 'rarest'
> atmospheres.  Also, I would expect the extreme pressure waves to form minute
> contrails (someone correct me here if i am floundering into strange
> territories) and therefore make it relatively easy to detect where the shots
> were originating from (but also acting like a form of tracer to the firer as
> well).

I recall the test you refer to.  The projectile actually created a contrail
of ionized gas much like a micrometeorite.
> 
> Now, using the good ok EnergyK=0.5 x M x V x V, I would approximate that a 4g
> needle from a gauss gun at 20 km/s would, theoretically, gave about 0.8 MJ of
> kinetic energy, enough to knock anyone off their feet and punch a big hole in
> everything apart from hulls and bulkheads (gearheads can you please confirm
> both calculations and also what it should/shouldn't penetrate :-) )


Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
20 km/sec.

ME is 0.8 MJ

Assume a weapon mass of 4.5 kg (slightly heavier than Book 4, about 10 lbs
or close enough).  That gives a free recoil energy of 1422 J.  A .458 win
mag elephant gun has a free recoil of 81 J, about the most anyone can
tolerate.  No one will be shooting this.

Let's reset the numbers with a target free recoil of 100 J  and see what we
can come up with.  Again assume a rifle massing 4.5 kg.  If we are still
using the 4mm, 4g projectile, we can tolerate a velocity of 4743 m/s.

That works out to be 45,000 J.  Pretty respectable. The mighty .458 win mag
only generates about 5400 J.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 04:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr  7 03:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <010301c1de1d$72819f80$a85d8690@computer>

> From: sneadj@mindspring.com
> I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because
> humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill
> that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate
> thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in
> Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost
> any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something
> separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before.

The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
million or more - far greater than the examples given above.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 05:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 04:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Time Travel
In-Reply-To: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16uAur-0007IU-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

I'm fairly certain this won't work, but if by some miracle it does we 
might get to see what the 57th century will *really* look like.

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/095/metro/Professor_s_time_tra
vel_idea_fires_up_the_imaginationP.shtml

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 05:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr  7 04:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20406.231818.6W1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Jens Rydholm wrote:
>> My main aim isn't to recreate the original Traveller sequence. If I'd
>> wanted that, I'd just use it instead of First In  ;-)
>> 
>> However, I want roughly the same spread of intelligent races as in typical
>> SF, ie the most common environment for sentinent life to evolve in is on
>> Earthlike worlds.
>> 
>> I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might look
>> under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary after a
>> while.
>> 
>> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
>> function using radically different biochemistries?
>
> Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
> reprinted in various places.

Asimov never had a column in Analog. His column was in F&SF. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 05:38:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr  7 04:38:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20406.232122.6w2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Well, odds are the lock won't work at all then.  Plus, who says you're
> going to
>> put a thumbprint lock on the _inside_ of the lock?
>
> Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
> kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
> Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Take off your suit glove (the wrist will seal, same as if you'd
punctured it). Put your thumb on the reader. 

Once you get inside treat your hand for the swelling, edema, and
rupturing on minor surface blood vessels.

Esposure of your hand to vacuum is *painful*. But the amount of damage
is rather like that for frostbite. Short exposure won't do serious
damage.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 06:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Sun Apr  7 05:13:03 2002
Subject: Traveller Non-Lethals (was Re: [TML] Niches)
References: <20020407082906.CCBE427AFE@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0378D.B52CD94E@earthlink.net>

Mark Urbin posted:
> 
> At 12:41 PM 4/6/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >Tod Glenn says:
> [snip]
> >The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
> >from Book 4.  How about YTU?
> 
> I think people like Snubs because they have HEAP & HE ammo.
> 
> >In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a
> >good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
> >been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.
> 
> T4 has 'em.

So did CT. The publication was the adventure "Divine Intervention".

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 06:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 05:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8D51C82.37945%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAEENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod says:

[We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
in the loop and acting on the armature.]

ObTrav: Can the expert spot the vehicle with the railgun? 
Look for the longer, heavy duty barrel, perhaps with an
external truss.

A railgun would probably require more rigid construction
to resist this force, which would be considerable if the weapon
was designed for very high power (like a vehicle mounted weapon).

The barrel might be much more substantial than a typical 
slugthrower barrel, which has most of its reinforcement in the
breech area.  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn says

[
Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
20 km/sec.

ME is 0.8 MJ

Assume a weapon mass of 4.5 kg (slightly heavier than Book 4, about 10 lbs
or close enough).  That gives a free recoil energy of 1422 J.  A .458 win
mag elephant gun has a free recoil of 81 J, about the most anyone can
tolerate.  No one will be shooting this.

Let's reset the numbers with a target free recoil of 100 J  and see what we
can come up with.  Again assume a rifle massing 4.5 kg.  If we are still
using the 4mm, 4g projectile, we can tolerate a velocity of 4743 m/s.

That works out to be 45,000 J.  Pretty respectable. The mighty .458 win mag
only generates about 5400 J.
] endBlock

As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.  The first example you give is 10%
of that.  The second example has a free recoil somewhere above the elephant
gun.

ObTrav:  To be controllable in full auto, I would think we would want the
free recoil down in the M-16 range (which is dubious, if you've ever
tried to hit something at 100 yards on full auto with the M-16).  I've
also noticed that as soon as recoil levels go over, say, a light rifle
in .243, people begin to notice, and when they notice, they either flinch,
or are apprehensive about firing, especially the first round.

ObTrav2:  Tod, how do we arrive at various penetration and damage values for
CT,
MT, etc.?  FFS might be easy, and maybe we could work our way backwards.
Other game systems, such as PCCS, are extremely easy to back-calculate.

Now, I'm up there with Jeff Cooper in wondering why recoil is a problem,
but then again, I've never tried a .460 Weatherby.  Might make a flincher
out of me.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0F014.30539.36165A5@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 9:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> ObTrav:  To be controllable in full auto, I would think we would want
> the free recoil down in the M-16 range (which is dubious, if you've ever
> tried to hit something at 100 yards on full auto with the M-16).  I've
> also noticed that as soon as recoil levels go over, say, a light rifle
> in .243, people begin to notice, and when they notice, they either
> flinch, or are apprehensive about firing, especially the first round.

They do? Even my sisters didn't consider the SMLE to be excessive once 
they were adults. It was a bit heavy when we were 10 or 12, though. 
I've always thought that recoil isn't significant until you're dealing 
with light, light .270 Winchesters, light .30-06's and up.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <200204071328.DNX00358@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
<snip about learning to shoot when you're young>

Yes, I'm with you that recoil "should not" be a problem, 
especially if you learn to shoot when you're young.

But a lot of people in the US Army have never fired a weapon 
prior to joining up, and many of them are flinchers with an M-
16.  Scary.

I don't really have a problem in recoil, unless, as you say, 
the rifle is too light.  The heavier calibers, such as 
the .375 H&H, tend (to me at least) to feel like a giant 
shove, and the smaller high velocity calibers (the 7mm 
Remington Magnum being one) tend to have a sharper recoil 
spike.

ObTrav:  I really believe in the -5 DM for people who have no 
gun skill.  But -- it only takes a few afternoons of proper 
instuction to get rid of this.  I would assume that 
adventurers have taken the time to teach their fellow 
adventurers (someone with Instruction would be best).
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204071328.DNX00358@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0F5B7.22180.3776D4B@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 9:28, John T. Kwon wrote:

> But a lot of people in the US Army have never fired a weapon 
> prior to joining up, and many of them are flinchers with an M-
> 16.  Scary.

I didn't see that with the guys, but many of the women who joined up 
having never handled a real rifle had problems. Not so much flinching 
as poor and unsteady grip. I don't think some of them ever held the 
weapon steady enough for it to be called a flinch as such. To my great 
surprise everyone in my intake ultimately passed.

> ObTrav:  I really believe in the -5 DM for people who have no 
> gun skill.  But -- it only takes a few afternoons of proper 
> instuction to get rid of this.  I would assume that 
> adventurers have taken the time to teach their fellow 
> adventurers (someone with Instruction would be best).

I'd go along with that.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <8bj0busac4ql4qivsl46eujfq619pq2mb4@4ax.com>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 00:26:03 -0800, "Mark Seemann" <mark@seemann.ms> wrote:

>Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:14:38 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>wrote:

>> We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your 
>> site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which 
>> was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on 
>> the whole series of events?

>While I can't remember the sequence of event, my library data tells me
>there were indeed two projects: The Abh and Udh projects.

>These library entries were taken from the Classic Traveller Alien Module
>8: Darrians, but I can't remember the rest of the story. However, if you
>really want me to, I can go look it up.

The Abh Project involved sending a probe deep into the star; it was kept
cool enough to survive by venting tungsten.

The Udh project involved mapping the interior of the star using crossed
beams of (microwaves?).

The flare happened when the intersecting beams went through a region where
the Abh probe had vented tungsten; the resulting reaction propagated along
the 'tungsten trail' until it reached the star's surface, where it went
nasty.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <8bj0busac4ql4qivsl46eujfq619pq2mb4@4ax.com>
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407080316.009f24b0@mindspring.com>

At 09:48 AM 4/7/02 -0400, you wrote:
>The Udh project involved mapping the interior of the star using crossed
>beams of (microwaves?).

Mesons.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 09:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Sun Apr  7 08:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com> <010301c1de1d$72819f80$a85d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CB06657.8060405@gmx.net>

Alan Bradley wrote:

>>From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>>I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because
>>humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill
>>that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate
>>thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in
>>Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost
>>any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something
>>separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before.
>>
>
>The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
>Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
>million or more - far greater than the examples given above.
>
What about the ratio of 'civilian' deaths to 'military' deaths? Who gets 
the award for most civilian casulties compared to military casulties, 
not overall numbers?

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 10:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 09:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407111020.027e6d50@pop.wizard.net>

Si quotes me then says:
>laning wrote:
>
> > <snippety, snip, snip>
> > IMTU, laser weapons do minimal damage.
> > <snippety, snip, snip>
> > I also reduce the damage on gauss weapons by a bit, because of the gauss
> > weapons in equipment lists are smaller caliber than most gunpowder weapons
> > in the same category.  A projectile is a projectile.  Whether it was made
> > to go very fast by a gunpowder explosion or a magnetic acceleration doesn't
> > make any difference, as long as it is going the same speed.
> >
> > --Laning
>
>Just to confirm things here, the Gauss/Rail/coilgun weapons DOES NOT fire the
>projectile at similar speeds to 'gunpowder' weapons.  The last i heard (and
>this was about 5+ years ago), current (at the time) railgun technology was
>managing to accelerate a small plastic pellet (about 1" across IIRC) to over
>22km/s (declared) and it was punching through 6" steel plating as if it were a
>shaped charge.

Let's see if I can express myself better this time.  I am not trying to say 
that gauss weapons are only capable of matching gunpowder weapons 
performance.  I was trying to say that if you build a gauss weapon and a 
gunpowder weapon that each propel an identical projectile to an identical 
speed and spin, then the projectiles will both behave identically as they 
go down range.

There have been posts (primarily from Tod Glenn) since my post quoted above 
that let's say strongly suggest it would be unlikely that anyone would 
bother to build gauss weapons that way.  Instead, makers of gauss weapons 
would send a lighter, skinnier, longer projectile down range and at hugely 
greater velocities than anyone would bother to try to make a gunpowder 
weapon do even if they could make it do so.  I was trying originally to say 
that if gauss weapon makers are underperforming in a particular niche of 
gun type, all they have to do is come up with a gauss weapon that throws 
essentially the same slug at essentially the same speed and spin as the 
gunpowder weapons they are competing with.

Assuming that weapon/ammo prices of both are comparable, which they 
probably are not but this is so far out in the realm of science fiction 
that we really can't confidently predict what the prices would be.  So the 
prices are whatever you want to make them.

My reason for making the canonical gauss rifle do somewhat less damage than 
say a battle rifle firing standard 7.62 NATO is that I am not entirely 
convinced that making a lighter skinnier projectile go hugely faster and 
making it a lot longer is necessarily going to produce the wounding results 
predicted by the experts who are designing and testing these things.  I 
think a large dollop of conservatism is a healthy thing in such 
matters.  Let's see production models in real combat or hunting and used by 
regular people, and in uncontrolled conditions.

Please note that I am not _rejecting_ claims from gauss weapon 
proponents.  I am being slow to accept them.  I should also point out what 
I posted earlier:  I am reconsidering my house rule on gauss weapon damage, 
mostly because of things Tod Glenn has said.  I made those house rules many 
years ago and haven't been prompted to change them since.  But maybe I 
will, now.  They're just a science fiction item in a science fiction game, 
and I don't feel it's criminally stupid of me to make gauss weapons IMTU 
behave differently than gauss weapons in someone else's TU.  My players 
have been happy with my rules for twenty years, and generally the ones with 
the most knowledge of military firearms have been the happiest.  That tells 
me that my rules aren't just completely ludicrous.  If my version of gauss 
weapons bothers you, then maybe you will find some relief to know that I 
wholeheartedly agree about those magic snub pistols not being able to 
penetrate armor as well as they canonically do.  IMTU, they don't.  You can 
have a HEAP round in your snub pistol, and it may improve it's penetration 
in many circumstances.  But it will still penetrate more poorly than a HEAP 
round from a standard autopistol.  My usual snub pistol description is 
roughly the .25 auto "lady's gun".

If you're curious about what I would change my house rules to say on gauss 
weapons, here's what I am thinking about maybe doing.  Or I may decide not 
to since it's been fun to play with the rules I'm used to and it's just a 
game.  I'm thinking about crunching the numbers with the formulae helpfully 
provided by Tod Glenn using canonical gauss weapon designs and probably a 
couple or three other designs of my own.  Translate the results back into 
Traveller combat stats.  Work through each of the ammo types I believe 
would be useful and decide what differences to implement for a projectile 
that is much longer, proportionally than comparable gunpowder bullets.  I'm 
guessing that some ammo types will be more expensive and others 
cheaper.  And HEAP may be less effective because higher velocities and 
probably faster twists and smaller diameters can be counterproductive for 
that type of ammo, but perhaps the longer projectile will help.  I am also 
thinking about making the gauss weapon itself a lot more expensive.  Or 
not.  I can think of reasonable arguments both ways.  And making gauss 
weapons more fragile than gunpowder weapons.  Or again, perhaps not.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 10:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Apr  7 09:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>

From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>

     "The Abh Project involved sending a probe deep into the star; it was 
kept cool enough to survive by venting tungsten."

     "The Udh project involved mapping the interior of the star using 
crossed beams of (microwaves?)."


Mr. Zeitlin,

     Intersecting meson beams being used as some sort of active sensor 
system.  The beams also need to intersect at a "shallow", or obtuse, angle 
with each other.  The beams in the case of Tanis system were projected from 
two widely seperated locations the system's planetoid belt.
     This adds some complexity to any deploymeny of the Star Trigger.  The 
obtuse angle of intersection required for the meson beams means that two 
projectors at near opposite "sides" of a star must be used.
Two ships would then be a minimum; one to release the probe and project a 
beam, the other to project the second beam.  Naturally, the vessels would 
have to be in communication with each other to coordinate the meson beam 
aiming point.  How quickly the tungsten cooled probe, which is only used to 
"seed" the star with that material, can be inserted into the star is 
unknown, as is how much tungsten needs to be vented.
     IIRC, the effects aren't seen for many hours and, presumably, the meson 
beams need to operated for that entire length of time.
     All of this makes the Star Trigger a rather finicky device.  Actual 
deployment of the weapon would require a large, sustained effort on the 
Confederation's part and the use of many vessels.  For example, the vessels 
projecting the two meson beams would have to do so from beyond the star's 
jump limit, otherwise the mission would be a suicidal one.  That suggests 
that the vessels would need to be very large and very specialized to carry 
and operate the (spinal mounted?) meson beam equipment.  Whether the 
projection equipment could be switched between a weapons role and a Star 
Trigger role is unknown.  The Star Trigger vessels may have to be convoyed 
and protected by significant numbers of warships during any deployment.
     This may be part of the reason why the Sword Worlds haven't been on the 
recieving end of one yet.  The devastation that such a strike would also 
inflict on both Imperial and Confederation systems may also be part of the 
answer.
     <<< SPOILER ALERT >>>














     The current Darrian Star Trigger does not work.  The adventure in CT's 
AM 8, the Darrians, has the PCs being hired to perform a multi-world search 
for archival information regarding the two scientific projects that 
triggered the original Maghiz.  If, IYTU, this mission fails or the 
reason(s) for it is/are not suspected, the Star Trigger is little more than 
an extremely effective bogeyman.
     As a strategic deterrent, the Star Trigger works because BOTH parties, 
the Darrians and their enemies, believe it does.  Zho agents probing Star 
Trigger personnel will learn that those personnel believe that the Trigger 
works and thus "confirm" it's existence.
     One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star 
Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was 
faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon says:
>ObTrav2:  Tod, how do we arrive at various penetration and damage values for
>CT,
>MT, etc.?  FFS might be easy, and maybe we could work our way backwards.
>Other game systems, such as PCCS, are extremely easy to back-calculate.

I was going to actually do some work on my own to find the requisite 
formulae, but that is guaranteed to take a lot longer, I'm sure.  It 
wouldn't be surprising if Tod can recite them from memory.  :->

>Now, I'm up there with Jeff Cooper in wondering why recoil is a problem,
>but then again, I've never tried a .460 Weatherby.  Might make a flincher
>out of me.

Recoil is a problem.  As my right eyebrow can testify.  Every time I'd go 
to the rifle range, the flange on the carrying handle of the M-16A1 would 
kick into my eyebrow.  Never took more than a dozen rounds for the eyebrow 
to be bleeding.  But it didn't stop me from shooting about 238 to 242 out 
of 250 on a consistent basis.  Not competition material, but just shy of 
it.  I got to play with the M-16A2 once and got to qualify with it one time 
before I was discharged.  The butt stock is three-eighths of an inch 
longer, and that helped with eye relief a little.  I did still bleed, but 
it took probably 30 rounds to get me bleeding, and the bruising and 
bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but 
at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier 
to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always 
wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.

A lot of weapons are awkward in the first few rounds of full auto, but can 
be brought back onto target if you continue firing a long or very long 
burst.  Every BAR gunner I've ever talked to said it's very controllable 
and accurate with that technique, for instance.  And a couple of people 
have told me they could hip fire the 5.56 gatling gun accurately that way 
(see the movie 'Predator' for a very fictional example).  The phrase I keep 
hearing from people who've relied on this technique is "you just ride it".

There's a difference between recoil and felt recoil.  One of the main 
things that can be done to reduce felt recoil is change the design of the 
rifle stock from having curves intended to fit your body better to being a 
straight "in line" stock, like the M-16 and most assault rifles and battle 
rifles.  It distributes the forces from the recoil better.

In other words, there are a lot of things that can be done to control or 
manage recoil.  And to some extent, troops can be trained or can train 
themselves to suppress or forget the flinch response.  (Myself as an 
example, above.)  "Flinching is for fairies," is probably how my old friend 
would sum that up.  But I wouldn't expect something with _felt_ recoil 
comparable to a .458 Winchester Magnum to be something you could put on 
general issue to troops, it's just too much for most of them, especially 
when you think about them firing it often hundreds of times per day instead 
of just a couple of times like a big game hunter.  Tod's high performance 
gauss weapon in his previous example was chosen for being at the upper 
limit of what is practical.  For humans.  One might suppose Aslan could 
handle more.  And other races with more radically different designs might 
be more capable of handling much greater.  Just as I expect Vargr can't 
handle as much as humans and many other races even less than that.  Droyne, 
anybody?

By the way, they call it a carrying handle but don't _ever_ carry it that 
way unless you want everyone in the area who outranks you jumping up and 
down and going crazy on you.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <200204071732.DOF00615@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
<snip about weapons, and then a mention of the snub pistol>

I thought that the snub pistol was, like the accelerator 
rifle, something like the Gyrojet of old.

I've been thinking that like Tod says, the diameter of the 
round is too small to have any actual HEAP (HEAT) jet 
effect.  A long time ago, the snub pistol IMTO became an 
over/under pistol firing a rocket round.  The diameter is 
25mm (very impressive if you're looking down the wrong end), 
and the round is essentially a small grenade, not unlike the 
OICW round.  Designed to minimize fragments, except very 
small shaped charge, rather like an HEDP round without the 
extra fragments.  Still, given the backblast, you don't want 
to fire it without a faceshield (which is why users are 
generally in a vacc suit, combat armor, or some such).  Made 
specifically for zero-g combat, and to penetrate suits at 
shipboard ranges.

ObTrav:  There was a great effort in the Phoenix Command 
combat system, in the High Tech supplement to design weapons 
specifically for shipboard use.  These weapons were 
purposefully designed to limit penetration - there was even a 
standard maximum penetration depth in equipment that was 
allowed, so that shipboard equipment that was vital could be 
built with this standoff in mind.  Think about what would 
happen if there was a circular firing squad in Traveller on 
the typical merchant ship bridge - even if we're only using 
shotguns and the occasional laser carbine.  What weapons 
might we consider (including non-lethals) if we're going to 
be able to board - and subsequently use - a ship?

Me, I'm willing to try the sticky foam dispenser.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407111020.027e6d50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5D1E5.379BD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 9:19 AM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

Lanning, I'm getting a bit worried when I see my name appearing in so many
of your posts.  I am not the gauss weapon prophet.

> 
> There have been posts (primarily from Tod Glenn) since my post quoted above
> that let's say strongly suggest it would be unlikely that anyone would
> bother to build gauss weapons that way.

Note that I did a comparison of a gauss and non-gauss versions of the same
rifle.  The rifle in question was the M1A (semi version of the M-14) in
7.62x51mm.  The only difference in performance is that a gauss weapon will
have less recoil firing the same bullet at the same velocity.  This is
solely because there is no expelled propellant by byproducts contributing to
recoil.

[snip]

 
> Please note that I am not _rejecting_ claims from gauss weapon
> proponents.  I am being slow to accept them.  I should also point out what
> I posted earlier:  I am reconsidering my house rule on gauss weapon damage,
> mostly because of things Tod Glenn has said.  I made those house rules many
> years ago and haven't been prompted to change them since.  But maybe I
> will, now.  They're just a science fiction item in a science fiction game,
> and I don't feel it's criminally stupid of me to make gauss weapons IMTU
> behave differently than gauss weapons in someone else's TU.  My players
> have been happy with my rules for twenty years, and generally the ones with
> the most knowledge of military firearms have been the happiest.  That tells
> me that my rules aren't just completely ludicrous.  If my version of gauss
> weapons bothers you, then maybe you will find some relief to know that I
> wholeheartedly agree about those magic snub pistols not being able to
> penetrate armor as well as they canonically do.  IMTU, they don't.  You can
> have a HEAP round in your snub pistol, and it may improve it's penetration
> in many circumstances.  But it will still penetrate more poorly than a HEAP
> round from a standard autopistol.  My usual snub pistol description is
> roughly the .25 auto "lady's gun".

Just bear in mind that HEAP round have to travel slowly and can't be spun or
they won't work.  If you look at the velocities of modern AT missiles,
you'll note that they're very low, and for a reason.  The warhead needs time
to form the penetrator jet.  it's unlikely that snub weapons are going to
have stand-off noses, so velocity will have to be low.  Spinning the
projectile disperses the jet, so that's out too.
> 
> If you're curious about what I would change my house rules to say on gauss
> weapons, here's what I am thinking about maybe doing.  Or I may decide not
> to since it's been fun to play with the rules I'm used to and it's just a
> game.  I'm thinking about crunching the numbers with the formulae helpfully
> provided by Tod Glenn using canonical gauss weapon designs and probably a
> couple or three other designs of my own.  Translate the results back into
> Traveller combat stats.  Work through each of the ammo types I believe
> would be useful and decide what differences to implement for a projectile
> that is much longer, proportionally than comparable gunpowder bullets.  I'm
> guessing that some ammo types will be more expensive and others
> cheaper.  And HEAP may be less effective because higher velocities and
> probably faster twists and smaller diameters can be counterproductive for
> that type of ammo, but perhaps the longer projectile will help.  I am also
> thinking about making the gauss weapon itself a lot more expensive.  Or
> not.  I can think of reasonable arguments both ways.  And making gauss
> weapons more fragile than gunpowder weapons.  Or again, perhaps not.


See above.  HEAP is unusable at high velocities and high rates of spin. A
few other things to consider:  A coil gun requires a ferromagnetic
projectile.  No lead or other material.  If it's a railgun, the armature
(projectile) just has to be conductive.  At hypervelocity, there is little
to be gained using special projectiles.  The canonical description of the
gauss round as a hollow point with an armor-piercing core id far more
complicated that necessary. The example used previously is more than
adequately lethal.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAEENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5D411.379C1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 5:54 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@comcast.net wrote:

> ObTrav: Can the expert spot the vehicle with the railgun?
> Look for the longer, heavy duty barrel, perhaps with an
> external truss.
> 
> A railgun would probably require more rigid construction
> to resist this force, which would be considerable if the weapon
> was designed for very high power (like a vehicle mounted weapon).
> 
> The barrel might be much more substantial than a typical
> slugthrower barrel, which has most of its reinforcement in the
> breech area.  

I remember some photos of the railguns built at the University of Texas for
the Army FMBT project.  They look pretty much identical to conventional
barrels, except for the square bore opening.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5D942.379C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 6:04 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@comcast.net wrote:

> ObTrav2:  Tod, how do we arrive at various penetration and damage values for
> CT,
> MT, etc.?  FFS might be easy, and maybe we could work our way backwards.
> Other game systems, such as PCCS, are extremely easy to back-calculate.

I have copies of both FFS and FFS2.  AFAICT, CT figures are just arbitrary.

FFS2 uses SQRT(ME)/10.5 to calculate damage.  I've never liked determining
damage bases solely on muzzle energy.  Instead, I use my own formula where
damage is bases on actual energy transferred to the target.

I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.  The base human target
is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.  We take the
initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the
remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.  From this we
can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.  We use this energy
to calculate damage.

In the case of things like conventional handguns, there are lots of
published sources with total ballistic gelatin penetrations.  Knowing the
density of this material, we can back calculate the retardation and energy
transferred.

This systems gives a measure of 'actual damage'  and we don't have to relay
on then 3D rules and 'lost energy due to 'shoot through'.

> 
> Now, I'm up there with Jeff Cooper in wondering why recoil is a problem,
> but then again, I've never tried a .460 Weatherby.  Might make a flincher
> out of me.

I shoot my .458 win mag Whitworth Express rifle all the time.  Preferred
loading is 500gn hard cast bullet with 72 gn 4895.  I'm not a big guy, but
if find this load 'stimulation' to shoot.  I've never really been bothered
by recoil.  Most people who shoot this do it only once.  I will say a tight
hold on the rifle is essential.  I probably have done my shoulder any good.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 10:18 AM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Recoil is a problem.  As my right eyebrow can testify.  Every time I'd go
> to the rifle range, the flange on the carrying handle of the M-16A1 would
> kick into my eyebrow.  Never took more than a dozen rounds for the eyebrow
> to be bleeding.  But it didn't stop me from shooting about 238 to 242 out
> of 250 on a consistent basis.

You've got talent.  With the old M16A1, I always put the tip on my nose on
the charging handle to make sure I had exactly the same cheek weld.  I'd
often shoot the M16 from my chin or groin to demonstrate it's lack of
recoil.

> bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but
> at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier
> to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always
> wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.

Try shooting one full auto.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3CB08DED.97126F82@virgin.net>

--------------8640A99E3980EE50F0202E80
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
>
> [snip]
> Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
> 20 km/sec.
>
>
> As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
> APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.  The first example you give is 10%
> of that.  The second example has a free recoil somewhere above the elephant
> gun.

Don't disagree there.  But I was talking about a small infantry weapon, not a
vehicle/free standing anti-armour weapon

Si

--------------8640A99E3980EE50F0202E80
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
"John T. Kwon" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Tod Glenn says
<p>[snip]
<br>Let's crank the numbers.&nbsp; Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile
at
<br>20 km/sec.
<br>&nbsp;
<p>As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
<br>APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.&nbsp; The first example you give
is 10%
<br>of that.&nbsp; The second example has a free recoil somewhere above
the elephant
<br>gun.</blockquote>
Don't disagree there.&nbsp; But I <u>was</u> talking about a small infantry
weapon, not a vehicle/free standing anti-armour weapon
<p>Si</html>

--------------8640A99E3980EE50F0202E80--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020407111020.027e6d50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB08FDE.F6F24BCE@virgin.net>

laning wrote:

> Si quotes me then says:
> >laning wrote:
> >
> > > Let's see if I can express myself better this time.

[huge snip]

Yep.  I have no problem with anything you say.  You did however, have a concern
with the damage from a thin-body penetrator compared (as well as you can) with a
'standard' round and i think I might be able to help there.  One thing about
hypervelocity (and hence hyper energy as it is the velocity squared that more than
compensates for the greatly reduced mass) penetrators doing damage is that the
target area (IIRC) behaves as if it were a fluid, IRRESPECTIVE of what it is made
of (depending of course upon the energy of the penetrator).

I am sure someone will correct me (in the politest possible terms) if i am wrong.

;-)

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB08DED.97126F82@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5DE82.379D4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 11:20 AM, Si at mr.fingle@virgin.net wrote:

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
Tod Glenn says 

[snip] 
Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
20 km/sec. 
 

As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.  The first example you give is 10%
of that.  The second example has a free recoil somewhere above the elephant
gun.
Don't disagree there.  But I was talking about a small infantry weapon, not
a vehicle/free standing anti-armour weapon

A weapon with a 4 gm projectile being fired at 20 km/s is not a small
infantry weapon.  The recoil is obscene.  I'd say an upper limit on free
recoil should be no more than 50 J, with 25 J being more realistic.

Si 


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 13:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 12:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
Message-ID: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

	Okay, so I'm considering writing up my own shipbuilding rules ("Yeah,
yeah, kid, you and everybody else - take a number and wait in line."),
and there were a couple of factors that I haven't seen (or have missed)
in the various ships rules in different editions of Traveller:

	Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 'workstations',
but it seems to me that most ships (at least ones that carry passengers)
would require some sort of galley for food preperation.  Has anyone seen
or worked up rules for the minimum size of a ship's galley, based on the
number of crew and passengers carried?

	Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
on the number of ship's crew and other factors?


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 14:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun Apr  7 13:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1de72$5c0c6a00$2f7de40c@loki>

Both have always been outside the rules proper though some systems have
made galleys/stores something one could add if they desired.

I remember a lot of debate about the topic once upon a time. The general
conclusion--abhorred by some--was that the stateroom figure subsumed the
common spaces required to support them.

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 14:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 13:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>

--part1_30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 07/04/02 19:10:37 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


> I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.  The base human target
> is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.  We take the
> initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the
> remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.  From this we
> can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.  We use this energy
> to calculate damage.
> 

Isn't 30cm a little thick? 18cm - 20cm is the normal figure I see quoted.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 07/04/02 19:10:37 GMT Daylight Time, webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.&nbsp; The base human target<BR>
is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.&nbsp; We take the<BR>
initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the<BR>
remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.&nbsp; From this we<BR>
can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.&nbsp; We use this energy<BR>
to calculate damage.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Isn't 30cm a little thick? 18cm - 20cm is the normal figure I see quoted.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8D60220.379F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 1:58 PM, CHam628781@aol.com at CHam628781@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 07/04/02 19:10:37 GMT Daylight Time,
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.  The base human target
is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.  We take the
initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the
remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.  From this we
can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.  We use this energy
to calculate damage.


Isn't 30cm a little thick? 18cm - 20cm is the normal figure I see quoted.

Charles


I measured the thickness of a few friends and came up with about 12" from
front to back for an average chest thickness, or 30 cm.  YMMV.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches - correction.
In-Reply-To: <B8D5D942.379C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8D60286.379FA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 11:08 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

I just looked over my calculations and noted that I forgot to divide by 2
when calculating energy. (i.e. e= mv^2/2).  Please note the error.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407154204.033249d0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn, replying to my rifle range scores with the M-16A1:
>You've got talent.  With the old M16A1, I always put the tip on my nose on
>the charging handle to make sure I had exactly the same cheek weld.  I'd
>often shoot the M16 from my chin or groin to demonstrate it's lack of
>recoil.

Thanks, that's encouraging to hear.  And I used the exact same technique 
with my nose on the charging handle to more precisely get the same cheek 
weld.  One of my buddies in boot camp may have done permanent damage to his 
arm by getting too tight a loop sling all day at the range.  He shot well, 
ne'ertheless.  Chin or groin?  The recoil I recall is more than enough to 
discourage me from trying that one.  It was popular for the marksmanship 
instructors and coaches to tell the troops that, "The M-16 fires a .223 
calibre bullet.  That's the same as a .22.  You aren't going to be afraid 
of a .22 are you?"  This was more useful as propaganda than actual 
fact.  Most of the Americans recruited into today's military have no prior 
experience with firearms of any kind so this might work.  They at least 
have heard enough to know that a .22 is a pretty wimpy little thing.


> > bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but
> > at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier
> > to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always
> > wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.
>
>Try shooting one full auto.

I'd love to!  My curiosity will never be satisfied til I've tried out all 
these weapons that I use in gaming.  And who knows, maybe there'll be the 
chance at the big annual WW2 gathering in Reading, Pennsylvania this 
June.  Sort of like a Ren Faire for WW2 enthusiasts, reenactors, costumers 
who like that period, and everyone else.  It includes a three-day 
reenactment of the Battle of the Bulge.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407172540.00aa2c20@pop.wizard.net>

> > bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but
> > at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier
> > to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always
> > wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.
>
>Try shooting one full auto.

As long as I'm at it, I'd be very interested in shooting the Italian 
BM-59  (I think it's 59), which was essentially the M-14 with some 
improvements.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DE82.379D4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB08DED.97126F82@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407172827.00acfec0@pop.wizard.net>

>
>A weapon with a 4 gm projectile being fired at 20 km/s is not a small
>infantry weapon.  The recoil is obscene.  I'd say an upper limit on free
>recoil should be no more than 50 J, with 25 J being more realistic.

Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread, mentioning the 
ability of various Traveller races to cope with recoil, I should have also 
mentioned battle dress.  That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more 
recoil.  But how much?

-Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F33B1HQroJCIoo8oEoL000062ea@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "How about the Ilelesh Revolt? Didn't the Imperium scrub the sector
capital clean of life as an example to others?"


Mr. Boleyn,

     Thanks, I forgot about that one.
     The Imperium evacuated the population from Ilelish's tropical regions 
and "scrubbed" the "equatorial regions free from life."
     I'd assume (a shocking habit) that the people involved were simply 
moved to the planet's temperate zones rather than off world.  Having the 
remaining population living next door to the lesson being "taught" would 
fulfill the Imperium's requirements nicely.
     The IN then sterilized the equatorial zone with a bombardment of 
enhanced radiation warheads (neutron bombs).  This would allow them to kill 
off everything without triggering a "nuclear winter" of sorts.  They may 
have followed up the bombardment with liberal use of large meson gun spinal 
mounts to "pitchfork" the terrain.
     Ilelish's equatorial zone must have looked like a baked and barren 
jumble of craters, tells, and fissures.  New Mordor anyone?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <200204072135.DON00704@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning asks
>
>Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread, 
>mentioning the ability of various Traveller races to cope 
>with recoil, I should have also mentioned battle dress.  
>That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more recoil.  But 
>how much?
>

Good question.  I've always wondered about this, because if 
you could carry large weapons and handle high recoil, you 
would have a semi-auto rifle that fired high velocity 20mm 
(not low velocity 20mm like the OICW).

20mm californium rounds, that is.  The one part of Striker I 
really liked.  Hit someone in battledress and watch the 
little mushroom cloud.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:55:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:55:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB168FD.22000.23BF80@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 11:15, Tod Glenn wrote:

> You've got talent.  With the old M16A1, I always put the tip on my nose
> on the charging handle to make sure I had exactly the same cheek weld. 
> I'd often shoot the M16 from my chin or groin to demonstrate it's lack
> of recoil.

My preferred method of supporting the M16A1 was to have my right hand 
(I'm a lefty) open and simply rest the forend on my palm. I found the 
rifle would bounce and then recover to the same point of aim all by 
itself, which made getting a good  sight picture for following shots 
quick and easy. Don't try this with the AUG - you'll lose it and 
probably get the optic sight banged into your eyebrow. It may be 
heavier but it's rather butt heavy so it jumps quite a bit more than 
the M16A1.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D60220.379F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 14:03, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I measured the thickness of a few friends and came up with about 12"
> from front to back for an average chest thickness, or 30 cm.  YMMV.

Do you give out less damage for hits in thinner places, or do you just 
assume a poor damage roll reflects this? And wouldn't the chest tend to 
be less dense than other parts of the body due to the 'air-filled' 
lungs?

Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth 
for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and 
for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females 
it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing. 
Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how 
old the data is.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407180357.0331dc40@pop.wizard.net>

Perry says he's developing shipbuilding rules:
>         Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 
> 'workstations',
>but it seems to me that most ships (at least ones that carry passengers)
>would require some sort of galley for food preperation.  Has anyone seen
>or worked up rules for the minimum size of a ship's galley, based on the
>number of crew and passengers carried?

Nothing I'm aware of.  And you make a very good point.  Perhaps finding Web 
sites or actual books on kitchen design is the best thing for 
that.  Especially restaurant kitchens.

We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including ironing.  Every 
service a hotel provides, basically.

>         Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
>amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
>other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
>that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
>rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
>on the number of ship's crew and other factors?

There are rules in all or most versions of Traveller for baggage and cargo 
allowances for passengers.  I assume baggage goes in their stateroom and 
cargo is containerized and placed in the cargo hold.  Ship's lockers are 
certainly recommended, and usually appear in published deck plans and 
privately designed ones.  But that doesn't leave pantry space, linen space, 
etc.  You might want to find a textbook on hotel planning, and look at 
military field manuals and technical manuals for logistics planning.  And 
surely the real life sailors have some knowledge about this.

In fact maybe both your questions and all related questions can be answered 
using real world naval architecture references.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEODCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Just finished reading a hardcopy of AK wounds in Vietnam.
A medical summary report on "Da Nang lung" which was 
pulmonary edema brought on by unregulated overuse of 
intravenous fluid replacement (without regard to electrolyte
balance).  Death was the result, usually two to three days
after successful repair operations.

The point I nearly missed is that most rifle wounds in the
prone are plunging fire which enters the shoulder area,
and failing deflection on the shoulder blade, penetrates in
a downward diagonal towards the pelvis.  This caused a
lot of damage, which, if it missed kidneys and major
blood vessels, was not immediately fatal.  It did
necessitate a lot of repair, and the lack of knowledge
in the 1960s about fluid replacement resulted in death.

The distance from the shoulder blade to the hip socket,
taken at a diagonal, is a considerable distance.  Most AK
rounds evidently stopped after traveling this far in the
body. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407180357.0331dc40@pop.wizard.net>
References: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407151942.0248eec0@mail.verizon.net>

>We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including 
>ironing.  Every service a hotel provides, basically.

Even hookers?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB168FD.22000.23BF80@localhost>
References: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407181218.033aa1f0@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert:
>My preferred method of supporting the M16A1 was to have my right hand
>(I'm a lefty) open and simply rest the forend on my palm. I found the
>rifle would bounce and then recover to the same point of aim all by
>itself, which made getting a good  sight picture for following shots
>quick and easy. Don't try this with the AUG - you'll lose it and
>probably get the optic sight banged into your eyebrow. It may be
>heavier but it's rather butt heavy so it jumps quite a bit more than
>the M16A1.

Yes.  You want your rifle sling stretched nice and tight, partly so that 
you can wedge your foreward hand into the narrow angle between the taut 
sling and the ...argh how can I have _forgotten_ the proper 
nomenclature!  Just shoot me now.

Anyway, with your hand tightly wedged in, and a fairly stable triangle of 
tension between that forward hand, its elbow nicely resting on the ground 
or your knee, and the opposite shoulder, you should go right back to the 
same sight picture pretty quickly and naturally.

Firing in the "offhand position" was always the hardest for me.  Prone, 
kneeling, sitting, or anything else you can do to brace against something 
immovable (like the ground or a wall or a tree) makes a huge, huge 
difference.  Firing with nothing in particular to help you hold the thing 
steady is tough.  Standing, "rapid" fire, is tricky.  I started out just 
doing it through sheer concentration and did okay.  I then experimented 
with figure eight and other similar techniques when I heard about 
them.  Which were good for improving my score a little but seemed to have 
very little practical application on the battlefield.  I think I would have 
been great at trench warfare.  I don't know about patrolling, though.  Even 
someone who doesn't anticipate or flinch is going to have a tough time 
aiming at and hitting anything if everybody is running/walking around.

For referees with little or no experience shooting, please keep in mind the 
importance of firing from a braced position (prone is probably the most 
ideal) and also the importance of having many seconds to aim at an unmoving 
target.  Or if it's moving, then moving very steadily and predictably is 
almost as good as immobile.  Also, untrained or insufficiently trained 
personnel have a strong tendency to anticipate the recoil by actually 
raising the front of the weapon themselves as they squeeze the trigger.

I suspect anticipation is the single greatest cause of close-range pistol 
combats that result in nobody being hit by a bullet.  It happens all the 
time.  Anticipation, fear, adrenaline, inability to concentrate well enough 
to remember to try to use even the most elementary and easy principles of 
marksmanship.  The more I learn about how many reasons there are for people 
not hitting their opponent in combat, the more respect I develop for Alvin 
York.  And the more important I think it is to deal with your fear ahead of 
time, so you can you put it out of your mind during combat.

--Laning
"Fear is the mind killer."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
References: <B8D60220.379F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407183334.027f11c0@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert:
>Do you give out less damage for hits in thinner places, or do you just
>assume a poor damage roll reflects this? And wouldn't the chest tend to
>be less dense than other parts of the body due to the 'air-filled'
>lungs?
>
>Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth
>for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and
>for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females
>it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing.
>Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how
>old the data is.

Reporter:  "How can you shoot children and teenagers like that, Corporal?"
Corporal:  "Easy.  You use a lighter load."

-Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEODCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407183737.028bbdd0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon:
>The distance from the shoulder blade to the hip socket,
>taken at a diagonal, is a considerable distance.  Most AK
>rounds evidently stopped after traveling this far in the
>body.

Useful to keep in mind when shooting at K'Kree or the like.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEODCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB173E1.15599.4E49DB@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 18:15, John T. Kwon wrote:

> The distance from the shoulder blade to the hip socket,
> taken at a diagonal, is a considerable distance.  Most AK
> rounds evidently stopped after traveling this far in the
> body. 

IME a 7.62x39mm round when fired from an SKS, which has a longer barrel 
than an AK-47, at a goat from a fairly short range (maybe 20 yards) 
will travel through its entire length (in this case approximately 2 
feet) and stop inside the skin without exiting. That would be about the 
same distance, allowing for the elasticity of the goat's skin. The goat 
died effectively instantly because the bullet passed through its heart 
and the major vessels on top of it.

Just another data point.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407181218.033aa1f0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CB168FD.22000.23BF80@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB17502.746.52B49D@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 18:32, laning wrote:

> For referees with little or no experience shooting, please keep in mind
> the importance of firing from a braced position (prone is probably the
> most ideal) and also the importance of having many seconds to aim at an
> unmoving target.  Or if it's moving, then moving very steadily and
> predictably is almost as good as immobile.

But if they're ducking and weaving and bolting from cover to cover in 
an unpredicable manner you can pretty much forget more than the most 
basic aiming. In these cases I recommend a machinegun.

Also followup shots from a trained shooter are much faster than the 
first shot, as you've already done most of the aiming for the first 
shot - all you're doing for the later shots is correcting for the 
effects of recoil.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB17502.746.52B49D@localhost>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOECGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Rupert Boleyn says
[But if they're ducking and weaving and bolting from cover to cover in 
an unpredicable manner you can pretty much forget more than the most 
basic aiming. In these cases I recommend a machinegun.]

At ranges up to about thirty yards, using a pump-action paintball
gun with crude post sights, I was able to hit people who were running,
dodging, popping their heads up over cover intermittently...

That's not full auto, nor is it a high velocity weapon.

No problem.

The running people don't dodge nearly as much as they think.  This is
more of a factor where time of flight of the round is significant.  Figure
a tenth of a second for every hundred yards of flight, and you can see
that the dodge is really something that has to be anticipated rather 
than seen.  Below "tenth of a second" range, dodging is relatively 
ineffective, and tracking a running target is largely a matter of practice.
I had an instructor who claimed to kill VC bikers on 1-beer bets - that is,
he would use an M-14, and if he got them on the first round, he got a beer.
Some of his friends from that time laughed, because they remember him
*always* getting his beer.

Oddly, I do better on moving targets if I'm standing.

People who peek out from behind cover only get to do it once with me.
What's even more funny is that most of the people I've hit in 
paintball like this probably saw the one I put right over their
head to make sure of where the next one was going. 

ObTrav:  Your enemy will use the terrain around you to spot the
fall of his fire, and will adjust accordingly.  If you stay in the
same spot, and peek out repeatedly, you're going to get nailed.  They
may even resort to tricks to get you to look twice.  There are many
anecdotes about people being killed when they "just look".

ObTrav: Shooting at a moving target is a matter of practice if the
target moves in a straight line, regardless of velocity. The exception
comes when the target is "uncertain" as in the next ObTrav.

ObTrav: Dodging effectiveness is the result of "movement uncertainty".
The best explanation of this is that after you release the round,
the target has time to move.  For a target at 500 yards, this can be
nearly half a second -- unless you're using a laser rifle.  Imagine
trying to anticipate whether or not a moving man will stop, bend down,
turn or not nearly 1/2 second into the future.  So you put a lot of 
rounds into his general vicinity with a machinegun.  They say that 
the real sniper is the man who can anticipate this movement. The only
combat system that I've seen that models this is PCCS.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
Message-ID: <OF0BD69FC0.8B0C14DC-ONCA256B94.00752218@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

I haven't seen "GDWGAMES" around for a while.

I know Loren was having access problems - does anyone know if that is 
still the case?

Failing that, perhaps you could select one of the following:
        1.      On holidays;
        2.      Attempting to retrieve gear from his fabled lock-up on the 
other side of the US;
        3.      Snowed under (and as he's in Texas, you _know_ I mean this 
as an analogy for workload! ;-);
        4.      Banned from 'Net access by the Illuminati;
        5.      Stuck in a box in Warehouse 23 (maybe with some Zhodani 
infiltrators, cf. Challenge 60 or thereabouts);
        6.      Shipped out on a _Donosev_ (along with Stuart Ferris, 
didn't he just get his Surveyor's Cert.?);
        7.      All of the above;
        8.      None of the above [insert your version of events here].

Que?

<sigh> It must be Monday.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
Message-ID: <200204072341.DOR00933@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I keep wondering about those passenger prices.  It doesn't 
make any sense.  If I fly from Washington, DC to Newark, NJ, 
it's cheaper than flying from Washington, DC to Los Angeles, 
CA.

There is also a hub system in the US, which rewards you for 
transferring in places like Cincinnati and Atlanta, but I'll 
leave that out.

So, we've got two merchant ships.  One is Jump-1, and goes to 
and from a nearby star.  The other is Jump-5, and goes to 
another star 5 parsecs away.  Theoretically, if there's a 
Jump-1 route, you could take the Jump-1 ship to get to the 
Jump-5 destination, but it would take five tickets to get 
there.  Now, if I'm a Jump-5 ship, and I'm going 5 parsecs, 
the next fastest ship (a Jump-4 perhaps) can get you there 
for two tickets.  So what should I charge you?  I'm betting 
that I could charge more than the price of a single ticket, 
and you would still take my ship because it's less and you 
get there a week ahead of time.

Has anyone hashed out what ticket prices really should be?
Or cargo transport, for that matter.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOECGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <3CB17502.746.52B49D@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB18225.32194.860812@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 19:09, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn says
> [But if they're ducking and weaving and bolting from cover to cover in
> an unpredicable manner you can pretty much forget more than the most
> basic aiming. In these cases I recommend a machinegun.]
> 
> At ranges up to about thirty yards, using a pump-action paintball
> gun with crude post sights, I was able to hit people who were running,
> dodging, popping their heads up over cover intermittently...
> 
> That's not full auto, nor is it a high velocity weapon.
> 
> No problem.

That's like using a shipboard laser at sub-light second ranges though - 
they don't have time to move out of the way. Besides at that range 
doing much the same thing I didn't use the sights most of the time, but 
just pointed the gun at the victim - it was faster and just as (in) 
accurate.
 
> The running people don't dodge nearly as much as they think.

That's probably because running and dodging are generally incompatible.

> Oddly, I do better on moving targets if I'm standing.

I'm not surprised - it's easier to get a smooth motion and a good 
follow-through.
 
> People who peek out from behind cover only get to do it once with me.
> What's even more funny is that most of the people I've hit in paintball
> like this probably saw the one I put right over their head to make sure
> of where the next one was going. 

People who peek from behind cover more than once deserve what they get, 
IMO. So do people who come to a firefight without backup and buddies.

> ObTrav: Dodging effectiveness is the result of "movement uncertainty".
> The best explanation of this is that after you release the round, the
> target has time to move.  For a target at 500 yards, this can be nearly
> half a second -- unless you're using a laser rifle.  Imagine trying to
> anticipate whether or not a moving man will stop, bend down, turn or not
> nearly 1/2 second into the future.  So you put a lot of rounds into his
> general vicinity with a machinegun.  They say that the real sniper is
> the man who can anticipate this movement. The only combat system that
> I've seen that models this is PCCS.

IIRC you needed the advanced expansion for this.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020407234850.57151.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
If that retinal scanner makes the crew sit through
three or four rescans before it lets them in, or
mistakes them for a terrorist a couple times a week,
expect the retinal scanner to be bypassed before the
ship comes out of its first jump.
END QUOTE

Thats what fire axes are for!

HAL:Come on Dave be reasonable! Put the axe down!
Dave, Dave! NOOOOOOOO...0).^%^$&9&##5.

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 18:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 17:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <20020408000859.81953.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
People who strap on a PGMP-15 to go to the
'fresher annoy me,  IMTU they'll have to make
do with a shotgun.
END QUOTE

Well if nasty things happen to you every time you go
to the fresher you get paranoid! In my old group
(non-trav) we had a particularly nasty Ref, it got to
the point where my characters refused to go any where
with out two other armed characters! And I still died
alot! Though I survived longer than most. The greatest
thing ever was all the munchkins we had in the group
they where very good for cannon fodder ;) After a
while it got quite hard to walk anywhere due to the
amount of gear I was carrying. 

Me:All right essential equipment only, 3 LAW's check,
powered battle armour check, heavy machine gun check,
2000 rounds check, 12 white phosporous grenades check,
12 frag grenades check, semi-auto shotgun check, 200
rounds solid check, 200 rounds flechette check,
satelite phone check, 12mm pistol check, 100 rounds
12mm check, 20kg C4 check, 2 litres holy water check
(can never be to careful), 6 customised throwing
penguins check. <To other PC's> Okay Im going to the
bathroom now. If you here me scream or Im not back in
15 minutes call in an airstrike.

;)

James (Oh no, not Cthulhu again!) Ramsay

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 18:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 17:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
Message-ID: <95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9@aol.com>

--part1_95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Last time I spoke to him (just a couple of days ago, actually) he had just
acquired a new computer for home use and was in the process of getting
set up on it. I imagine we'll see GDWGAMES online again before too much
longer.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Last time I spoke to him (just a couple of days ago, actually) he had just
<BR>acquired a new computer for home use and was in the process of getting
<BR>set up on it. I imagine we'll see GDWGAMES online again before too much
<BR>longer.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 18:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr  7 17:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
References: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0E12F.6A9B3511@premier.net>


knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> 
>         Okay, so I'm considering writing up my own shipbuilding rules ("Yeah,
> yeah, kid, you and everybody else - take a number and wait in line."),
> and there were a couple of factors that I haven't seen (or have missed)
> in the various ships rules in different editions of Traveller:
> 
>         Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 'workstations',
> but it seems to me that most ships (at least ones that carry passengers)
> would require some sort of galley for food preperation.  Has anyone seen
> or worked up rules for the minimum size of a ship's galley, based on the
> number of crew and passengers carried?

FF&S2 describes two types of galleys for food preparation: Ordinary and
Full.  An Ordinary galley requires .2 m^3 per person served, with a
minimum size of 4 m^3.  Meager through Good rations can be competently
prepared in an Ordinary galley (1 cook per 40 sophonts).  A Full galley
requires .3 m^3 per person served, with a minimum size of 12 m^3. 
Preparation of Excellent meals requires a Full galley and a cook with
Steward 3+ or Cook 2+ (1 cook per 20 sophonts if preparing Excellent
meals; 1 cook per 40 sophonts otherwise).  Food storage is discussed in
Tables 211 and 212; volume required for a given number of sophont-weeks
of rations depends on food quality and TL.

Larger AuricTech designs tend to have sufficient Full galleys to support
a full complement of crew and passengers, along with an equal capacity
in Ordinary galleys.  When such ships are operating with a standard
complement, the Ordinary galleys are generally used as "snack bars," and
are attached to facilities such as crew lounges or the Combat
Information Center; if a ship is packed to double occupancy, the
Ordinary galleys provide the required "overflow" food preparation
capacity to serve the additional occupants.
> 
>         Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
> amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
> other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
> that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
> rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
> on the number of ship's crew and other factors?

Again, FF&S2 discusses ship's lockers, though in less detail.  Page 15
states that the volume required is "designer's choice," with suggested
values of .5 m^3 per 1,000 m^3 of ship or per crew member.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
civilians.  It has little or no military application,
contrary to popular mythos.
END QUOTE

True. But......

They don't like it up 'em mister mainwaring, they
don't like it up 'em ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:06:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:06:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020407190105.2914E27A15@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c1de9a$066819a0$e35e8690@computer>

> From: Robert Houghton
> What about the ratio of 'civilian' deaths to 'military' deaths? Who gets
> the award for most civilian casulties compared to military casulties,
> not overall numbers?

Hmm.  Well, if you find an example where there were *no* military
casualties, that ratio will give you a division by zero error.  Try the PNG
intervention in Vanuatu in 1980 for an example of this - the *only* casualty
was a civilian.

Of the wars I listed (WWII, Taiping Rebellion, and WWI), the civilian
casualties were huge in the first two, and *relatively* small in the latter.

Another interesting mass-death situation is the Stalinist forced
collectivizations in the early 30s.  This was essentially a civil war,
although militarily it was one sided.  It was a product of pure
incompetence - industry had been neglected, so the cities couldn't afford to
buy food from the peasants - result:  starvation, forcible requisitioning
and massacres.

China has had a few "interesting" times.  The decades before 1949 saw almost
continuous civil wars, foreign invasions, famines, epidemics, and all the
other horrors you can imagine.  After that, there was the famine that
coincided with the "Great Leap Forward", reversing the Leap's direction, and
the civil war called the "Cultural Revolution", when rival factions
organised mobs to attack each other.

The partition of India was a delightful little blood bath, too.  There are
just so many other cases, too.  John's selection of horrors was actually
comparatively mild, if you think about it.

My guess for biggest pile of dead civilians would still be WWII, though.  As
a ratio, it's harder to say, because of the absurd case of no military
casualties.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
And how would you rate the Colonial Marine unit in
"Aliens"?
END QUOTE

One word. F*#&ing officers.
Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
interview on the DVD). 

James (Who owns the DVD of Aliens even though he has
no DVD player. And also wants to join the USMC because
of Aliens even though he is Australian.)


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS War what is it good for, absolutely nothing (apart f
 rom the Industrial Military complex)
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17918@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

> I can't buy into that at all, John.  Sorry.  Wars seem no more
> omnipresent today than they were in classical times.  The only
> relationships I would draw are the motivation for vengeance that
> connects the survivors to a mass slaughter, and Malthusian effects of
> reducing population pressure by reducing population.  Two forces that
> relationships that seem in opposition to each other.  Even if you
> massacre _all_ your enemy, even the children below age six, you will
> put yourself high on the rest of the world's Enemies To Destroy list. 
> There will come the day you are on the losing side in a war, and
> genocide is not a precedent that you'd like to have around.


John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 
I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because 
humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill 
that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate 
thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in 
Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost 
any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something 
separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before. 
 
The three examples above are only those examples I know of with 
the highest death toll, tens of thousands were also been killed in 
Indonesia in the 1960s and in the ruins of Yugoslavia.  

Combat lethality may have gone down, but death tolls in conflicts 
have certainly gone *way* up.

From Me:
Unfortunately it seems that as the leathility of the battlefield increases,
the likelihood of inter-state war (ie between two countries) has decreased.
So conflicts largely around the globe, present US campaign excluded, are
internal disputes. And when it is internal it is when genocide and other
nasty elimination stuff, happens the most. Especially when you have western
industrial powers that are unwilling to become involved in 'Nation Building'
and actually step in and say 'hey man, killing your own people is wrong'.
Fortunately that seems to be happening a bit more now. 

The sad thing is for Afghanistan is that  the best thing that ever happened
to them, I hope in the long run that is, was September 11. Cause there was
no way in hell anyone was going to do anything about it otherwise.

My 0.02 of course. 


Mikey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
In-Reply-To: <200204072341.DOR00933@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407180641.00a07670@mindspring.com>

At 07:41 PM 4/7/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I keep wondering about those passenger prices.  It doesn't
>make any sense.  If I fly from Washington, DC to Newark, NJ,
>it's cheaper than flying from Washington, DC to Los Angeles,
>CA.

Wrong analogy, think steamships in the days before regular air travel.

Passengers could get (relatively) cheap passage between large established 
ports, say Southampton and New York, they were serviced by large, regular 
liners.  Getting from London to Mombassa involved trips on small freighters 
with a few extra staterooms, any number of stops and delays, and being 
charged whatever the market could get away with.  Think the freighter in 
"Raiders of the Lost Ark."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:30:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:30:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <20020407234850.57151.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407181125.009efb90@mindspring.com>

At 09:48 AM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>QUOTE
>If that retinal scanner makes the crew sit through
>three or four rescans before it lets them in, or
>mistakes them for a terrorist a couple times a week,
>expect the retinal scanner to be bypassed before the
>ship comes out of its first jump.
>END QUOTE
>
>Thats what fire axes are for!
>
>HAL:Come on Dave be reasonable! Put the axe down!
>Dave, Dave! NOOOOOOOO...0).^%^$&9&##5.

"Computer, if you don't open that exit hatch this moment I shall zap 
straight off to your major data banks and reprogram you with a very large 
ax, got that?"

<silence>

"Right.  Get the ax."

<door opens>

Zaphod Beeblebrox


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
   - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
In-Reply-To: <OF0BD69FC0.8B0C14DC-ONCA256B94.00752218@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <000601c1de9d$a1a80760$2f7de40c@loki>

david.d.jaques-watson supposes, "4. Banned from 'Net access by the
Illuminati;"

Maybe the Illuminati are just preventing you from receiving GDWGames
copious daily posts filled with detailed information you are not
prepared to read.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407180641.00a07670@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOGCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Douglas Berry says
[Passengers could get (relatively) cheap passage between large established
ports, say Southampton and New York, they were serviced by large, regular
liners.  Getting from London to Mombassa involved trips on small freighters
with a few extra staterooms, any number of stops and delays, and being
charged whatever the market could get away with.  Think the freighter in
"Raiders of the Lost Ark." ] endBlock

Then let's consider a frontier. No established trade routes.
You can either take a Jump-2 ship to a destination 5 parsecs away
through intermediate planets at 8,000 cr per jump (three jumps total,
24,000 cr), or you can take my Jump-5 ship, and I charge you 20,000 cr
for the same middle passage.  It's a one off, and I can get you and
your friends there earlier.

Which makes me wonder where they come up with the idea of those
prices.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
Message-ID: <20020407.215033.-132267.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 19:15:43 -0500 John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
writes:

> FF&S2 describes two types of galleys for food preparation: 

> Again, FF&S2 discusses ship's lockers, though in less detail.  

Thanks for the info.  I do own a copy of FFS2, but tend to go blind after
awhile reading through all those tables.

Again, thanks.


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <20020408022950.69084.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Or Ha-Un batteries (Batteries made from a mixture of
Handwavium and Unobtainium)...
END QUOTE

I believe the equation is Ha+Un = TU ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hull designs, deck plans, yadda yadda
Message-ID: <200204080233.DOX00653@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

A ship is a pressure vessel, right? I'm trying to think of a 
reason that you would waste space on a "hallway".  I'm 
thinking of the deck plan for a needle configuration, and I'm 
thinking that it would be similar to a modern submarine, with 
a long tapered nose.

The deck plan of a submarine came to mind, and I don't 
remember seeing "hallways".  

Are there any deck plans of a modern submarine on the web?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>

At 11:08 AM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:

>One word. F*#&ing officers.
>Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
>officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
>enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
>interview on the DVD).

OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's 
all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window 
as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get 
Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.  In my view, those 
are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:39:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:39:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOGCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407180641.00a07670@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193614.009ffac0@mindspring.com>

At 09:38 PM 4/7/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Then let's consider a frontier. No established trade routes.
>You can either take a Jump-2 ship to a destination 5 parsecs away
>through intermediate planets at 8,000 cr per jump (three jumps total,
>24,000 cr), or you can take my Jump-5 ship, and I charge you 20,000 cr
>for the same middle passage.  It's a one off, and I can get you and
>your friends there earlier.
>
>Which makes me wonder where they come up with the idea of those
>prices.

People with very little experience in travel.

GT: Far Trader does a much better job of modelling the actual flow of 
passenger prices.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001501c1dea7$7bed0480$0b01a8c0@duck>

>      Intersecting meson beams being used as some sort of active sensor
> system.  The beams also need to intersect at a "shallow", or obtuse, angle
> with each other.  The beams in the case of Tanis system were projected
from
> two widely seperated locations the system's planetoid belt.

Actually, one beam was from a GG moon, the other from Darrian itself.

>      This adds some complexity to any deploymeny of the Star Trigger. ...
> Two ships would then be a minimum; one to release the probe and project a
> beam, the other to project the second beam.

The original (non-working Star Trigger) didn't know anything about the
meson interference project.  They thought the stellar probe itself caused
the flares.  Therefore, the original operation of the Star Trigger would
only require a single ship.

For an operational deployment, I would imagine that three ships would be
needed.  The two meson ships, and a much smaller "delivery" ship.  (Which
could possibly have to be sacrificed.)

>      IIRC, the effects aren't seen for many hours and, presumably, the
meson
> beams need to operated for that entire length of time.

This is not stated, and there is at least one hint that they don't.  I got
the impression that once the proper convergence was achieved, it was pretty
much over.  The wait was for the effects to reach you.

>      All of this makes the Star Trigger a rather finicky device.  ...

While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I don't
see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the trick
is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it.

>      This may be part of the reason why the Sword Worlds haven't been on
the
> recieving end of one yet.  The devastation that such a strike would also
> inflict on both Imperial and Confederation systems may also be part of the
> answer.

The reason the Sword Worlds never received a flare was for two reasons:
1) They are too close.  The Darrians would suffer from the EMP results as
   well as the Sword Worlders, unless they went *deep* into SW territory.
2) The Star Trigger did not become operational until after the Fifth FW.
   After the FFW, the Sword Worlds were, quite frankly, not much of a threat
   to the Darrians.

From what I can tell, after the FFW the Darrians had very few external
threats.  The only annoyance (besides the fractured Sword Worlds) seems to
be Garoo!  And no matter how annoying Garoo is, they just can't be worth
the effort and political backlash of using the Star Trigger.

> ...  If, IYTU, this mission fails or the
> reason(s) for it is/are not suspected, the Star Trigger is little more
than
> an extremely effective bogeyman.

While you can do whatever you want IYTU, in the OTU the Star Trigger does
work.

>      One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star
> Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was
> faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.

This is a great point.  It never really dawned on me, but you are
absolutely correct!  I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an
incredible accomplishment in its own right.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 21:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun Apr  7 20:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407231301.0210b390@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:49 PM 4/7/2002, knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>Okay, so I'm considering writing up my own shipbuilding rules

Cool!

>Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 'workstations' [...]
>Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
>amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
>other sundries.

Yes to both; "traditional" Traveller starship construction rules assumed 
that these, as well as other habitability needs (freshers, corridors, 
lifts, common areas, recreational facilities, etc.) are included in the 
canonical 4 dtons per person stateroom requirement.

When drawing deckplans, I generally allocate between 2 and 3 dtons for the 
actual stateroom, and use the remaining 1-2 dtons/stateroom for galley, 
storage, etc.  Remember that prior to FF&S, the Traveller starship 
construction rules were fairly loose, and fudging items like this was 
generally negligible in the long run.

I believe FF&S2 has rules for both provisions and preparation facilities.

Back in the CT days, I used to have a house rule that for extended duration 
missions (longer than 30 days), ships had to allocate 1% of the ship's 
total volume per month of provisions.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 21:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 20:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEOICGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_AAW+O329uHELj9/oA8bCnw)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Just looking at an interactive cruise ship deck plan.
http://dvo.free.fr/home.html

The standard prefab ship's cabin is 2.9 x 5 m or
2.9 x 5.5m.  This comes with two twin beds, shower,
hair dryer, tv/vcr, refrigerator w/soft drinks/minibar,
personal safe, telephone. closet, small desk, small
table, clothes drawers. The difference in the room
space is taken up by a different size desk.

Assuming a 3 meter ceiling, this is a little over 3 dTons.

Not bad, considering the amount of space.  This leaves
0.9 dTons of space for other purposes. But looking at 
the "hallways", I'm sure this excess is all used up before
you ever get to the dining rooms, etc.

If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area
of comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen,
restaurant kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.

_________________________________
There cannot be a crisis next week.  My schedule is already full.


--Boundary_(ID_AAW+O329uHELj9/oA8bCnw)
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--Boundary_(ID_AAW+O329uHELj9/oA8bCnw)--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 21:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun Apr  7 20:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <001501c1dea7$7bed0480$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407233535.0201a0f0@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:45 PM 4/7/2002, Mike West wrote:
>[Somebody else said:]
>>One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star 
>>Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was 
>>faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.
>
>It never really dawned on me, but you are absolutely correct

Actually, it was hinted at: the Darrians are supposed to be Known Space's 
experts on stellar phenomena.  They faked the demonstration by being able 
to predict (far enough in advance) an appropriate naturally-occurring 
stellar phenomena, and then deploying ships to the site in time for the 
Star Trigger to be able to take credit for causing it.  IMHO, this is the 
rough equivalent of claiming to have an Earthquake Projector, and "proving" 
this claim by predicting a significant and unexpected earthquake well in 
advance.

I'm sure the use of Darrian military security around the site of the 
demonstration didn't hurt, either.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEOICGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20020408040109.7500F27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/07/02 at 11:35 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@comcast.net> said:

>If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
>meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area of
>comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen, restaurant
>kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.

Why 3 meters for deck to overhead?  It may be standard, but a lot of
that overhead is going to be wasted space. Two and a half meters is a
little over 8 feet, and that should be plenty. This gives you 5 - 1.5
meter squares per dton.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408000718.0284f8d0@pop.wizard.net>

James Ramsay:
>James (Who owns the DVD of Aliens even though he has
>no DVD player. And also wants to join the USMC because
>of Aliens even though he is Australian.)

We'll gladly take you, son.  You don't have to be a U.S. citizen to be a 
U.S. Marine.  I shared a barracks room for a year with a Lebanese Christian 
who was still a Lebanese citizen.  Contact the closest American consulate 
if you're serious.  Be sure to be able to do lots of pull ups from a dead 
hang and run three miles in under say 24 minutes.

And when you get off the plane to go to the Marine Corps Recruit Depot, 
just remember these two words:  "yellow footprints".  <WEG>

Much more serious advice.  Possibly the most important advice you will ever 
get in your life.  Find an MOS that gives you the training and expertise 
you want to use in your civilian career after you get it, and get that 
guaranteed in writing and signed by an officer.  Do not accept any talk no 
matter how reasonable or persuasive as a substitute.  Get the MOS you want, 
guaranteed.  In writing.  In writing.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
References: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>

Doug Berry regarding the film 'Aliens':
>OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's 
>all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window 
>as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.
>
>Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get 
>Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.  In my view, 
>those are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.

He was a brave fool, but a fool nonetheless.  But that's to be expected as 
the training, organization, and doctrine of the entire organization seemed 
to have been designed by the same.

Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units in 
Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no provision 
whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up against the 
Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win because of their 
balanced organization and integral combat and logistical support, despite 
their major technological disadvantage.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

laning says

[Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units in
Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no provision
whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up against the
Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win because of their
balanced organization and integral combat and logistical support, despite
their major technological disadvantage.] endBlock

Well then, I guess it's up to us to remedy that.

I had always wanted to do an entire orbital assault ship complete with its
marine complement (down to the last little bit).  Would need additional
ships capable of landing supplies, setting up landing fields, etc.  There's
a lot more to a successful landing than ships that can pound the planet into
rubble and a single shipload of marines.

Ever wonder why the naval units don't have pickets, reconnaissance,
minesweepers, etc?  No hospital ship, either.  I guess the Marines would
have nowhere to evac to if they're wounded.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB0F014.30539.36165A5@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020408044045.02AAD279F0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/08/02 at 01:19 AM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
said:

>On 7 Apr 2002 at 9:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

>> ObTrav:  To be controllable in full auto, I would think we would want
>> the free recoil down in the M-16 range (which is dubious, if you've ever
>> tried to hit something at 100 yards on full auto with the M-16).  I've
>> also noticed that as soon as recoil levels go over, say, a light rifle
>> in .243, people begin to notice, and when they notice, they either
>> flinch, or are apprehensive about firing, especially the first round.

>They do? Even my sisters didn't consider the SMLE to be excessive
>once  they were adults. It was a bit heavy when we were 10 or 12,
>though.  I've always thought that recoil isn't significant until
>you're dealing  with light, light .270 Winchesters, light .30-06's
>and up.

I had a problem with a 12 gauge when I was a kid. <g> I didn't even
notice there was recoil with a .22 rifle.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
Message-ID: <20020407.214938.-3991.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 23:01:11 -0500 "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
writes:
> On 04/07/02 at 11:35 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@comcast.net> said:
> 
> >If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
> >meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area of
> >comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen, 
> restaurant kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.
> 
> Why 3 meters for deck to overhead?  It may be standard, but a lot of
> that overhead is going to be wasted space. Two and a half meters is 
> alittle over 8 feet, and that should be plenty. This gives you 5 -  1.5
> meter squares per dton.
> 
> Eris

I assumed the 3 meters was deck to deck, allowing the extra space for
conduits, ducts, overhead lighting,, pipes, electrical stuff, grav plates
etc.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
Message-ID: <OF1B531251.5105373F-ONCA256B95.001A7F77@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Charles replied to Laning thus:
>>We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including 
>>ironing.  Every service a hotel provides, basically.
>
>Even hookers?

Certainly! Just the things you need to grab on to when you perform an EVA 
and the ship decides to lurch suddenly.

...or did I misunderstand your point?

;-)  ;-)  ;-)

(It really _must_ be Monday.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
In-Reply-To: <20020407.214938.-3991.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020408051123.47CD3279C0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/07/02 at 09:49 PM,  generalturokan@juno.com said:

>On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 23:01:11 -0500 "Eris Reddoch"
><erisred@telocity.com> writes:
>> On 04/07/02 at 11:35 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@comcast.net> said:
>> 
>> >If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
>> >meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area of
>> >comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen, 
>> restaurant kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.
>> 
>> Why 3 meters for deck to overhead?  It may be standard, but a lot of
>> that overhead is going to be wasted space. Two and a half meters is 
>> alittle over 8 feet, and that should be plenty. This gives you 5 -  1.5
>> meter squares per dton.
>> 
>> Eris

>I assumed the 3 meters was deck to deck, allowing the extra space for
>conduits, ducts, overhead lighting,, pipes, electrical stuff, grav
>plates etc.

I do to, but I allocate 6" to 8" for all that. I'm looking for extra
floor space to playing in. <g>  IAC, there's nothing stopping you from
tinkering with different shapes and sizes.

In one design I put lots of little sleeping chambers (ala the coffins
in some Japanese hotels) just high enough sit crosslegged on the bed
and not hit your head and just long enough to stretch out. Stack them
two or three high with a single shared fresher for a half dozen. The
passengers of these things use them for sleeping (storage under the
mat they sleep on), and the common lounge for everything else.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
Message-ID: <OF463ECBF4.84389A2C-ONCA256B95.001C6AA3@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

"n2sami" replied:
>david.d.jaques-watson supposes, "4. Banned from 'Net access by the
>Illuminati;"
>
>Maybe the I________i are just preventing you from receiving G_______
>copious _____ posts filled with ________ ___________ you are not
>prepared to ____.
>
>
>---_w_a_r__---

Well that's strange, I only appear to have received half your message...

;-)  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <OF7C3A3904.BA8B0762-ONCA256B95.001D1920@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Mike West wrote:
>>      One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star
>> Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was
>> faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.
>
>This is a great point.  It never really dawned on me, but you are
>absolutely correct!  I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an
>incredible accomplishment in its own right.

OK, I'll give a real reply to a post, now.

From memory, the Darrians know a *lot* about stars and their life cycles. 
They've studied them extensively, both just prior to, and certainly after, 
the Maghiz.

They found a star that was just about to flare, set up a fake demo, then 
claimed success once the star flared (making sure the Zhos had a ringside 
seat).

My bet is that it occurred somewhere in Foreven.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408033711.7417D27A19@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020407222519.00a4ddf0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 19:35:36 -0700, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> 
wrote:

> >One word. F*#&ing officers.
> >Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
> >officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
> >enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
> >interview on the DVD).
>
>OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's
>all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window
>and was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

That, and the first encounter was in about the worst possible 
location.  The Marines were in a confined space, surrounded by the enemy, 
most of them unarmed because of the risk of damage to the facility, and the 
second guy to buy it had all the ammo for the squad.  I don't care how good 
your CO is, you're going to take HEAVY casualties getting out of a 
clusterfuck like that.

There's also speculation/evidence in the supporting material that 
Weyland-Yutani deliberately picked a unit with a green officer (easier for 
the Company man on the spot to influence), perhaps even arranging for the 
previous Lt. to have an accident before the mission.  If you're gonna blame 
anyone, blame the suits.  :/


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>> Say what??? What's Oosik??
>
>A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
>bone from a walrus penis.  See
>http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html

For another poem about this wondrous item of nature, see BioGraffiti: A
Natural Selection by John M. Burns.  Oh, what the hell, it's short:

The Baculum

An inarticulate lucky stiff between
Paired spongy corpora casanova,
The baculum (or penis bone) of mammals
Lends firm support to a hard job.

Present in all insectivores,
Bats, rodents, carnivores,
And most primates (but not man),
It comes in many shapes.

That of the walrus (winner of a grand prix)
Is very like a warped baseball bat
Some two feet long. As one old walrus put it,
"Speak softly and carry a big stick".

Found at:

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Facility/4118/misc/biograffiti.htm
l

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:13:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:13:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407233535.0201a0f0@mail.qrc.com>
References: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020407233535.0201a0f0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <19221143037.20020408151732@greimann.de>

> Star Trigger to be able to take credit for causing it.  IMHO, this is the 
> rough equivalent of claiming to have an Earthquake Projector, and "proving" 
> this claim by predicting a significant and unexpected earthquake well in 
> advance.

Now this is an interesting concept for a future James Bond Film:

The  enemy only pretending to have a doomsday weapon, and JB searching
the  earth in vain, always thinking he is too late only to find out in
the end that he has been tricked...



-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon:

>Ever wonder why the naval units don't have pickets, reconnaissance,
>minesweepers, etc?  No hospital ship, either.  I guess the Marines would
>have nowhere to evac to if they're wounded.

I figure all the naval support units like pickets and minesweepers (mines 
in space??) are provided by the fleet that the Marine transports are 
attached to.

Field hospitals and supplies will be Marine units that are landed 
separately, without all that jump capsule stuff.  Higher echelon support 
will partly be shipboard, I suppose.  Hospital ships probably exist, for 
instance.

But where are all the mortar sections, comm sections, armorers, ammo 
transport units, company- and battalion-level support weapons like HMGs and 
air defense and antiarmor weapons that you never see the TO&Es?  And the 
S-1, S-2, S-3, and S-4 staff billets?

I could devise a few such TO&Es by simply copying some units from WW2 to 
present times and changing a detail here or there.  Seems boring, but if 
people here request it I'll try to post a few.  Prepare to see my really 
big squads with lots of automatic weapons.  :->

I have no idea what the GT material is on this, and have no intention to 
write up anything compatible with it.  The system is too incompatible with 
prior versions for me to invest that much money in them.  Although I do 
keep meaning to shop for a few of the books, if they work as source books 
for CT/MT.  'First In" seems to be very popular, for instance.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Sci Fi Books that are Ob Trav
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1791D@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

I know I am a tad late in this thread but it occurred to be the other day
that a very Ob Trav type series of books were the Amtrak Wars by Patrick
Tilley. Hi Tech underground civilisation fighting mad max esq mutated
barbarians. The descriptions of the underground settlements seem very trav,
monorails, life support levels, you name it. 

I'm re-reading them now. I liked them as a teenager and, ten years later,
they're still pretty good. 

In fact it would make a great GURPS sourcebook. Doug Berry come on down. 
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Railguns
In-Reply-To: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <3CB1AEF9.30344.7D45D12@localhost>

Hi all!

Earlier discussion about railguns (vs. coilguns) got me curious, so I 
went and found this site:

<http://www.railgun.org/>

Check it out!  They've got a lot of cool stuff -- all the formulas for the 
more gearheaded, pics of the assembly process, how they chose 
what projectile to use, etc. etc.  

-- Rachel 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was
inexperienced, that's all.  All he knew was the book,
and suddenly the book went out the window 
as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and
went back to get Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to
slow the enemy down.  In my view, those are the kind
of things that posthumous decorations are given out
for.
END QUOTE

I agree that he did the right thing at the end but he
was incredibly incompetent in the first encounter with
the aliens. I suspect he was chosen for the mission
because of his inexperiance, and or compliance to the
company. After all the actual grunts where a seasoned
combat hardened bunch of veterens, who I think where
probably the equivalent to the marine force recon. Why
would someone who has only ever had one actual mission
be put in charge of such a group? And he froze in a
combat situation endangering the lives of his men! And
the aliens wheren't that tough, notice how the people
who had guns survived (Drake was killed by friendly
fire). All the people with wimpy 'flame units' died.
It was a sever tactical error to send troops into an
area with no effective means of fighting. And James
Cameron was inspired by his brothers time in vietnam.
However I still like Gorman for his actions at the end
of the film.

ObTrav: Do the average grunts still bitch about thier
officers? Has officer - enlisted sophont relationship
improved or got worse?

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408040658.0326ba80@pop.wizard.net>

James Ramsay regarding Colonial Marines in the film 'Aliens':
>company. After all the actual grunts where a seasoned
>combat hardened bunch of veterens, who I think where
>probably the equivalent to the marine force recon.

No, not even close to Force Recon.  Maybe more like draftee Marines early 
in WW2 minus the commitment to a cause, and with no experience.  If I'm in 
a generous mood.  I'll take an equal number of former Force Recon who 
haven't worn a uniform in twenty years or more against that useless bunch 
of physically fit young men and women any time.

Perhaps they were supposed to be combat veterans, but most of them only 
acted like the Hollywood director's idea of that.  And their organization 
and doctrine didn't reflect any type of combat experience.  In short, they 
struck me as a bunch of high school football jocks who think they're, um 
kings of the world based on zero available evidence, and therefore 
qualified to fight a war.

After the first 'Alien' movie, abandon all notions of realism.

My ObTrav is to be very careful running military units in Traveller 
campaigns, it isn't easy being believable if you have players with more 
direct military knowledge than the referee.  Not that those players will 
want complete realism either.  They'll want fun and adventure.  But they 
still need to keep their belief suspenders from snapping.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 02:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon Apr  8 01:22:02 2002
Subject: TOE was RE: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEOKEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I did a TOE for a TL13 Terran Marine Unit in MT. Most of the vehicles are on
my site though I have never posted the TOE itself. I gave it recon, kitchen,
medivac, mobile hospital etc. My proudest achievement was designing (in MT)
a mobile Grav Field Kitchen. I still have the organisation lying around
somewhere.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 03:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr  8 02:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408040658.0326ba80@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <004b01c1dedd$23466840$2f9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Perhaps they were supposed to be combat veterans, but most of them only
> acted like the Hollywood director's idea of that.  And their organization
> and doctrine didn't reflect any type of combat experience.  In short, they
> struck me as a bunch of high school football jocks who think they're, um
> kings of the world based on zero available evidence, and therefore
> qualified to fight a war.
>

They were, I think, supposed to be experienced, but only at "correcting"
colonists who were behaving in naughty ways. (mainly by showing up and
acting like badasses). Dozens of soft missions made them complacent and
overconfident.

But yeah, the unit suffered from Hollywooditis. Who issues a support weapon
you have to use standing up?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 03:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr  8 02:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005c01c1dedd$c64fecf0$2f9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> ObTrav: Do the average grunts still bitch about thier
> officers? Has officer - enlisted sophont relationship
> improved or got worse?
>
>
My father told me last night (from his time in the Air Force).. he and a
bunch of other enlisteds were hurrying somewhere in a corridor. They spied
an officer at the last second, and two of them saluted. The officer shouted
at them. So on the way back they ALL saluted, to keep the mean officer
happy. So he shouted at them some more "FOR SALUTING IN A CORRIDOR!!!!!"

They went away cursing both officers and corridors, not very much the wiser.

Another time he spied someone in an unfamiliar dress uniform. Could have
been Russian for all he knew, but he saluted to be on the safe side. The
Canadian corporal smiled wryly and went on his way....


From shadow@krypton.scn.rain.com  Mon Apr  8 03:07:42 2002
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To: tml@travellercentral.com
X-Original-Article-From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] helium-3
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Message-ID: <20407.232902.6E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
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Date: Mon Apr  8 08:08:13 2002
X-Original-Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 23:29:02 PST

In mail you write:

> I keep looking at the p-H3 reaction, and although it has a 
> high hurdle for starting, it yields more energy per unit 
> fuel, and is aneutronic.
>
> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.
>
> It looks like you could build a much smaller H3 fusion 
> reactor, not just from the standpoint of overall yield per 
> unit fuel, but also because no energy would be wasted 
> accelerating neutrons (70% of the D-T cycle is neutron 
> energy), and there would be no need to have neutron 
> shielding.  I can almost see the argument that the only way 
> to get a "tabletop" fusion reactor would be to run it on H3.

Whoa!

H3 is *tritium*. He3 is Helium-3.

*Big* difference.

> Looking for a handwave for H3 reactors...

It's gonna be *expensive*. Because the fuel is rare and a *lot* harder
to store than liquid hydrogen.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:09:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:09:34 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <20020403012608.08423dc6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20407.233050.7S9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
>> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
>> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.
>
> Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
> surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).

Yeah, it merely requires processing *tonnes* of regolith for *grams* of
He3.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:10:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:10:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Sleeping In Starports, without Jimmy Hoffa
In-Reply-To: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20408.001328.7c5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the 
> price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial 
> cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very 
> much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be 
> possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for 
> mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the 
> fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator 
> runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to 
> ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of 
> the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.  The 
> same device could also be used in recycling to return 
> anything to its component atoms.

Yep.

> So, is that how the recycler works on the ship?  Is there 
> some plasma separator in there, and it's all reduced to 
> whatever the ship's environmental controls are interested 
> in?  Dump the other ions into space?

No, that's a bit *too* thorough. It takes a lot of effort to build
complex organics. You wouldn't run them thru that sort of system.
*Inorganic* waste, maybe.

Unless you've got nanotech, or similar "magic" level tech, you want to
leave organic molecules intact unless you've got a *good* reason to
break them down that far.

Life-support level air and water recycling is done easily without going
*that* far.

> Nice place for the Jimmy Hoffas of the future...

The excess carbon in the logs will require a *lot* of explanation.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20408.003625.1N7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The esteemed Leonard Erickson wrote, including quotes from Texas Redshift:
>> > For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't 
> get
>> > in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
>> > send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
>> > do the ship much good, however.
>>
>>Also, it can't be *too* hard. there will be lots of situations when the
>>crew wants to get inside *fast*, or they may be a bit "damaged" or
>>"incapacitated". Or both.
>>
>>Entry should be merely difficult enough to dissaude *amatuers*. Pros
>>will get in anyway, so the extra efforts isn't really justifiable in
>>terms of cost/benefit.
> I agree but only a little bit.  The penalty when you do lose a ship (and 
> probably some lives at the same time) is very large.  Typically hundreds of 
> millions.  Yes, it is a touchstone of security that no security system is 
> perfect, and you shouldn't spend excess effort on attempting to perfect 
> your security beyond a point that is appropriate to your degree of risk and 
> the cost if security fails.  Even one fat trader or passenger liner lost is 
> going to drive everyone's insurance rates through the roof and may risk 
> putting the insurer financially on the ropes.

Not necessarily.

One out of how many? That's the key there.

> If nobody else does, then 
> insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security 
> measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time 
> and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.

You are considering *installation* costs. I'm talking about the costs
in time wasted due to "overly stringent" security getting in the way.

Oil tankers are expensive too. So are modern freighters. And *safety*
gear on them that "gets in the way" is routinely bypassed by crews,
never mind "security" gear.

> Oh, I'm not sure that the phrase "kill switches" was supposed to mean 
> mantrap defenses.  I think it may have meant disabling critical ship's 
> systems.  Perhaps a triphammer smashes the zuchai crystals.  <G>

I didn't think it did. I know what a kill switch is. I brought up
lethal defenses because they have been discussed in the past, and would
have popped up any minute anyway.

And yes, the TU isn't the US. Some places are less forgiving, some are
more. Which laws apply to a ship in port could get very important.

>>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
>>someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
>>attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...

> I see we've met some of the same player characters.  :->

Alas, I understand that there have actually been a couple of real world
cases of this already. And it's been a standard dodge in fiction for
*at least* 50 years.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:13:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:13:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204030529.g335TAO02739@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard writes:

> But, as you say in a later post, the energy of forces might seem
> stronger under inertial suppression. Well, is that really the
> case? A change in gravity should produce no difference, as
> masses fall at the same speed, all other things being equal.
> If I drop a feather in a vacuum, and a drop a rock in a
> vacuum, they should both fall at the same speed. So I don't
> think that changing inertia should effect how an object behaves
> with respect to the gravitational force. What about the weak,
> strong, and EM forces?

Actually, consider that rock and feather in a vacuum *and* with zero
inertia. Let go and they undergo "infinite" acceleration as gravity
takes effect, and zero time later infinite *deceleration* as they hit
the bottom of the tube.

>> Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
>> things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects. 
>
> In what way?

Chemical reaction rates depend strongly on the mass of the atoms. Atoms
with similar properties (same column in the periodic table) react at
rates that are strongly connected with their mass differences. 

So the rates might increase dramaticly.

Molecular collisions in air would result in the molecules stopping,
rather than rebounding. So the opposing portions of their vectors would
cancel out. Add in the effects of gravity, and all the air molecules
would be in a thin layer near the floor. 

Thermal effects on the gases get weird too.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

>> But assuming that you can live thru the process, then it'd be best to
>> ignore all the effects at the sub-molar level (ie molecular and lower).
>
> Can't do this.

Then you're dead. Too many of the forces at those levels *do* depend on
inertia. Lowering inertia raises the *effective* force.

As an example, the reason that water doesn't boil at around -150 F is
because of Van der waals forces. Compare the boiling points of hydrogen
oxide, hydrogen sulfide, and so on down that column in the periodic
table. All of them *but* H2O have very low boiling points. 

Lowering the inertia of the molecules will have the effect of adding
similar forces. Which will change the physical and chemical properties
of compounds *drastically*. 
  
>> This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
>> work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
>> viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.
>
> Except that your heart would also be of a lower apparent mass.

What's *that* got to do with it? The pumping forces are due to
contraction of the muscle fibers. The mass of the heart has little
relevance there. The only effect it'd have (to the first order, anyway)
is making it *easier* to contract. 

> Instead of thinking of a normal pool ball hitting a styrofoam ball,
> think of one styrofoam ball hitting another one. On the molecular
> scale, I'm guessing that this would be more akin to what would be
> happening. -Jim

Nope. Because you lose the rebound. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:15:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:15:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215009.0283aec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20408.010158.0K9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson, in replying to JimV said:
>
>>BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
>>higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
>>artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
>>playing "grav pong" with hijackers.
> Sounds like we see it the same way.  Although +6 gees to -6 gees in less 
> than one second should be sufficient grav pong to deal with most hijackers.
>
> I've always wondered at the canonical lack of ships capable of 
> accelerations far greater than 6 gees.  We subject astronauts and fighter 
> pilots to accelerations between 4 and 6 gees, so you'd think that high 
> performance military aircraft would be capable of accelerating many gees 
> faster than their internal grav compensation can handle.  They accelerate 
> at 10 gees, have 6 gees of that compensated, and a "felt acceleration" of 4 
> gees.

Actually, fighter pilots are limited by the fact that they *have* to
experience gees in a "head to feet" direction. If you can take the
acceleration "flat on your back", the limt is between 15 and 18 gees.
That's the point at which you can't excercise fine muscle control.

3 gees can be handled "indefinitely" (hours, at least). 

This is only practical for "fighter" type ships. And the power & fuel
consumption is going to be high. But due to the fact that turns have to
be made by changing the direction the "mainn drive" points, they'll
*always* be taking all but a tiny fraction of the accel in the same
direction.

It only takes a fraction of a g to flip a ship end for end in space.
It's changing the direction it is *traveling* that takes the main
drive. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:16:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <F149PnvEZZ91Lhdms4Q000022be@hotmail.com>

From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>

     "Actually, one beam was from a GG moon, the other from Darrian itself."


Mr. West,

     You are correct, sir.  My apologies for "bum doping" the List.

     "The original (non-working Star Trigger) didn't know anything about the 
meson interference project.  They thought the stellar probe itself caused 
the flares.  Therefore, the original operation of the Star Trigger would 
only require a single ship."

     Yes, a single ship that would deliver a non-working device.

     "This is not stated, and there is at least one hint that they don't.  I 
got the impression that once the proper convergence was achieved, it was 
pretty much over.  The wait was for the effects to reach you."

     Perhaps the beams needn't be held on location for hours, but other 
portions of the weapon do require time.  How much time does it take for the 
probe to release enough tungsten into the star for the Trigger to work?  How 
far off must the projector vessels be in order to escape?Assuming a 
seperation between Darrian and Tanis of 1 AU, it would take a meson beam ~8 
minutes to cover that distance.  Put the second projector on a GG moon at a 
Jupiter distance and the time jumps to ~45 minutes.  Now throw in comm times 
between vessels and aiming attempts, you'll need both to ensure you get the 
proper angle of interference.
     Even parking both projector vessels at the star's 100D limit, so they 
can escape, means that beam travel distance, comm lag, and subsequent aiming 
attempts are all going to take time.  Maybe not hours, but certainly not 
minutes.

     "While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I 
don't see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the 
trick is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it."

     Yes, seeding the star with enough tungsten and aiming correctly will 
take time.  Perhaps the Darrians use multiple probes to increase their 
chances?

     "The reason the Sword Worlds never received a flare was for two 
reasons: 1) They are too close..."

     Yes, the "collateral" damage to both Darrian and Imperial space I 
mentioned.

     "2) The Star Trigger did not become operational until after the Fifth 
FW.  After the FFW, the Sword Worlds were, quite frankly, not much of a 
threat to the Darrians."

     You missed the point of the fake Star Trigger and the real story behind 
the faked demostration.  Everyone, INCLUDING THE DARRIANS, thought it 
worked!  It had to be this way so that Zho mind readers would verify it's 
both existence and operability.  So, for deterrent purposes, the Star 
Trigger, whether working or not, was deployed, IIRC, immediately after the 
2nd FW.  Plenty of time for a Confederacy tussling with the Sword Worlds 
over the Entropic Cluster to think about using it.  Remember, they thought 
it worked!
     The "real" reason the Star Trigger wasn't used during all those 
centuries is that weapons of mass destruction aren't, except in very rare 
cases, used to ensure you'll WIN a war.  They're used to ensure that the 
other fellow LOSES the war.  This is a important distinction.  The Star 
Trigger and MAD, on which it is based, is a suicide pact; "You push us too 
far and we'll make sure we all die, you included."
     The Trigger can be used defensively rather easily, by employing it you 
ensure that the power about to conquer you is left with nothing worth 
conquering.  Using the Trigger offensively, like nukes, is far tougher.  
Sure we can all spin out scenario after scenario in which nukes win the day, 
but they would all depend on very specific, out of the ordinary, 
prerequisites.

     "While you can do whatever you want IYTU, in the OTU the Star Trigger 
does work."

     Yes, as you pointed out it works after the 5th FW.  However, it was 
deployed for far longer than that.

     "I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an incredible 
accomplishment in its own right."

     Keeping the secret that the Trigger demonstration was a fake was the 
really incrediable accomplishment.  The fakers had to fool both the 
observers from the other powers AND their own people utterly and completely. 
  Why didn't the secret never leak out?  Mass suicide among the project 
staff over "creating" so horrible a weapon?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:17:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:17:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 0:22, laning wrote:

> Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units
> in Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no
> provision whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up
> against the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win
> because of their balanced organization and integral combat and
> logistical support, despite their major technological disadvantage.

I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were 
based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped 
their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its 
subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its 
companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it 
belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles, 
field ovens, etc.

I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of 
the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be 
used to supply and support its troops.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:18:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:18:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <20020408044045.02AAD279F0@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB0F014.30539.36165A5@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB236E1.7282.680449@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 23:40, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I had a problem with a 12 gauge when I was a kid. <g> I didn't even
> notice there was recoil with a .22 rifle.

I thought 12 gauges were fine - they push rather than kick and come 
with nice rubber butt pads. Not like No.1 Lee-Enfields with their solid 
brass butt plate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:19:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:19:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408075125.009ec5e0@mindspring.com>

At 04:58 PM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>ObTrav: Do the average grunts still bitch about thier
>officers? Has officer - enlisted sophont relationship
>improved or got worse?

Soldiers still bitch about everything.  It is their one right.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:20:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:20:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>

At 02:28 AM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>John Kwon:
>
>>Ever wonder why the naval units don't have pickets, reconnaissance,
>>minesweepers, etc?  No hospital ship, either.  I guess the Marines would
>>have nowhere to evac to if they're wounded.
>
>I figure all the naval support units like pickets and minesweepers (mines 
>in space??) are provided by the fleet that the Marine transports are 
>attached to.
>
>Field hospitals and supplies will be Marine units that are landed 
>separately, without all that jump capsule stuff.  Higher echelon support 
>will partly be shipboard, I suppose.  Hospital ships probably exist, for 
>instance.
>
>But where are all the mortar sections, comm sections, armorers, ammo 
>transport units, company- and battalion-level support weapons like HMGs 
>and air defense and antiarmor weapons that you never see the TO&Es?  And 
>the S-1, S-2, S-3, and S-4 staff billets?
>
>I could devise a few such TO&Es by simply copying some units from WW2 to 
>present times and changing a detail here or there.  Seems boring, but if 
>people here request it I'll try to post a few.  Prepare to see my really 
>big squads with lots of automatic weapons.  :->
>
>I have no idea what the GT material is on this, and have no intention to 
>write up anything compatible with it.  The system is too incompatible with 
>prior versions for me to invest that much money in them.  Although I do 
>keep meaning to shop for a few of the books, if they work as source books 
>for CT/MT.  'First In" seems to be very popular, for instance.

GT Ground Forces has complete brigade and regiment TO&Es for the Unified 
Armies of the Imperium and the Imperial Marine Force.  I spent most of my 
time developing the support units, and much of the Operations chapter is 
dedicated to issues of supply and support.

The Standard Issue chapter has the 30,000dton Keith-class brigade 
transport, along with its six Nakerth-class landers.. 1,200 tons each, 
carrying a full combat battalion to a world's surface. There is also the 
Caen-class dropship, the standard 1,200 transport for the Imperial Marines.

Among the vehicles included are a recovery sled, a heavy G-Carrier, and an 
engineering sled.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Sleeping In Starports, without Jimmy Hoffa
Message-ID: <200204081516.DPW00037@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>
>The excess carbon in the logs will require a *lot* of 
>explanation.
>

I used to play in a T campaign where a silicon-based alien 
species referred to us as "carbon-units".  The referee also
used to joke that the aliens knew they hit a ship with
people in it, because they used spectography to look for 
the carbon line when your ship was vaporized.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <20407.233050.7S9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204081031040.23520-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
> > surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).
> 
> Yeah, it merely requires processing *tonnes* of regolith for *grams* of
> He3.

Transhuman Space also says that ratio is good enough.
And it says you can get He3 more easily from gas giants.  In that future
history, the US put a colony in Saturn's orbit solely for that purpose.
Since most Traveller starships are capable of scooping gas giants anyway,
why not go by that route?

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam Draper)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20020408033711.7417D27A19@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGMEANCFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>

I was reading an article recently by a US Army surgeon who served in Vietnam
(Martin Fackler).  He found that the 7.62x39 would penetrate 29 inches of
ballistic gelatin, the 5.56x45 (M193) penetrates 13+ inches, and the 7.62x51
penetrates 25 inches (all FMJ).  Although the 7.62x39 had the deepest
penetration, it produced the least devestating wound.  The bullet
penetrated, turned around, and then exited.  He says, from his experience in
Vietnam, the "average uncomplicated thigh wound was about what one would
expect from a low-powered handgun: a small, punctate entrance and exit wound
with minimal intervening muscle disruption."  The US 7.62x51 produced an
uncomplicated wound profile like the 7.26x39.  The 5.56 produced a pretty
devestating wound, because the bullet would, as it yawed, split in half,
with the base fragmenting into a number of smaller projectiles.  This
reduced penetration, but made a big hole (up to 5" in diameter).  Velocity
had to be at least 2700 fps for the bullet to fragment (muzzle velocity with
a M16 is like 3200+), and no fragmentation took place until the bullet had
penetrated 4-5" of tissue.

Interestingly, German 7.62x51 bullets have a thinner jacket, and that round
would fragment like the 5.56.

I have read before that 5.56 soft points have pathetic penetration in
tissue, but 308 caliber soft points certainly get good penetration and
produce enormous wounds.  Bullet construction seems to be critical in
producing wounds; that seems to be largely ignored in Traveller other than
HE and DS rounds.

I wonder, does the Imperium follow the Geneva convention regarding FMJ
rounds?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 10:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 09:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS War what is it good for, absolutely nothing (apart f rom the Industrial Military complex)
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17918@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>; from Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:11:41AM +1000
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17918@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020408100937.B1314@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:11:41AM +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
>
> Especially when you have western industrial powers that are
> unwilling to become involved in 'Nation Building' and actually step
> in and say 'hey man, killing your own people is wrong'.

The last time nations took a wholesale interest in one another's
affairs, Europe was nearly destroyed in the wars of religion.  The
state system evolved in order to prevent that kind of mass death and
destruction.  The problem now is that states are so large: if the
Grand Duchy of Potlork--consisting of the Grand Duke, his staff,
10,000 citizens and a herd of cattle--goes on a genocidal rampage, its
fairly easy to escape to neighbouring Ruritania.  If the EU does, it's
somewhat more complicated, should one live in, e.g., Arras.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their
pockets for new vocabulary.                     --James D. Nicoll

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 10:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Mon Apr  8 09:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] E-mail still down -- Help Needed
Message-ID: <l03010d0bb8d770ec2013@[206.224.92.67]>

First, my GDWGames@aol.com account is still in the doldrums -- I have a new
computer (well, new to me -- it is an order of magnitude advance over my
old one, but still a used machine) through the courtesy of Geoff MacDonald,
who gave me a very good deal. I'm still struggling with modem issues,
however, so rejuvenatation of the old address will take a while.

A second point:

Will anyone who owns one of the following old GDW Boardgames please get in
touch with me.

	1941
	1942!
	Battle of Agincourt 1415 AD
	Battle of Lobositz
	Battle of Prague
	Battle of Raphia 217 BC

I'll explain in e-mail.



Loren Wiseman
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/
     SJ Games
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 10:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 09:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204081031040.23520-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018283921.6838.ajackson@ping>

Gregory Carl Kettler writes:
> On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > > Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
> > > surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).
> > 
> > Yeah, it merely requires processing *tonnes* of regolith for *grams* of
> > He3.
> 
> Transhuman Space also says that ratio is good enough.

Mostly because TS uses realistic fuel requirements for fusion.  3He is still
200 million dollars per ton in TS.  Of course, TS doesn't have contragravity
and thruster plates, which means getting stuff out of saturn is a challenge.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 11:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 10:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe@aol.com>

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In a message dated 08/04/02 03:39:21 GMT Daylight Time, 
gridlore@mindspring.com writes:


> >One word. F*#&ing officers.
> >Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
> >officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
> >enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
> >interview on the DVD).
> 
> OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's 
> all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window 
> as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.
> 
> Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get 
> Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.  In my view, those 
> 
> are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.
> 

What about the Sergeant (Apone?) - I thought the role of an NCO was to stop 
the officers messing everything up? Clearly he has more experience than 
Gorman and yet he's quite happy to lead his troops into an unknown 
environment against an unknown force AND he gives all the ammo to one man.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 08/04/02 03:39:21 GMT Daylight Time, gridlore@mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;One word. F*#&amp;ing officers.<BR>
&gt;Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the<BR>
&gt;officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to<BR>
&gt;enter direct combat (It says so in the directors<BR>
&gt;interview on the DVD).<BR>
<BR>
OK, that's not what I got at *all*&nbsp; Gorman was inexperienced, that's <BR>
all.&nbsp; All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window <BR>
as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.<BR>
<BR>
Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get <BR>
Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.&nbsp; In my view, those <BR>
are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
What about the Sergeant (Apone?) - I thought the role of an NCO was to stop the officers messing everything up? Clearly he has more experience than Gorman and yet he's quite happy to lead his troops into an unknown environment against an unknown force AND he gives all the ammo to one man.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 11:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 10:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <20408.003625.1N7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408123225.02823ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Leonard Erickson discusses the antihijacker issue:
> > If nobody else does, then
> > insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security
> > measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time
> > and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.
>
>You are considering *installation* costs. I'm talking about the costs
>in time wasted due to "overly stringent" security getting in the way.
>
>Oil tankers are expensive too. So are modern freighters. And *safety*
>gear on them that "gets in the way" is routinely bypassed by crews,
>never mind "security" gear.

I wholeheartedly agree that personnel will tend to ignore things that are 
inconvenient.  That's partly why insurers and lenders and regulators at 
starports will be the ones insisting on enforcement through certifications 
and inspections.  They won't expect ship crews to take care of it on their own.

I think the analogy with ocean-going vessels in our own world is useful, 
but not a complete analogy.  I think tankers and freighters mostly rely for 
their safety on the fact that any hijacker has an extremely difficult time 
fencing the rather unique and obvious stolen property.  As well as a 
communication network that is practically instantaneous around the globe 
and military patrols being able to reach the vessel by aircraft at speeds 
at least an order of magnitude faster than the vessel can travel.


> > Oh, I'm not sure that the phrase "kill switches" was supposed to mean
> > mantrap defenses.  I think it may have meant disabling critical ship's
> > systems.  Perhaps a triphammer smashes the zuchai crystals.  <G>
>
>I didn't think it did. I know what a kill switch is. I brought up
>lethal defenses because they have been discussed in the past, and would
>have popped up any minute anyway.
>
>And yes, the TU isn't the US. Some places are less forgiving, some are
>more. Which laws apply to a ship in port could get very important.
>
> >>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
> >>someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
> >>attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...
>
> > I see we've met some of the same player characters.  :->
>
>Alas, I understand that there have actually been a couple of real world
>cases of this already. And it's been a standard dodge in fiction for
>*at least* 50 years.

Sounds like our overall positions are not that far apart after all.  My 
vision of antihijacking measures is moderated and mitigated by all the 
things you've pointed out.  I do believe that captain and crew should have 
very quick access in case of emergency, and that daily activities should be 
only slightly impacted or not impacted at all, if possible.  Overrides 
should be available in multiple ways.  If this leaves loopholes that can be 
exploited by a determined, knowledgable, and clever foe then that risk is 
recompensed by all the honest passengers and crew who are saved from being 
victims of dangerously rigid security systems.  But, within those 
restrictions, a few hundred years of big business should be able to work 
out a lot of safeguards that are very effective.  Starship owners willing 
to seek the right vendors, sign enough waivers, or maybe go outside the 
astrographical borders under the watchful eyes of various regulators to set 
up their security will still be able to do perhaps ill-advised things.  And 
then you have your crews who will disable or circumvent safeguards despite 
all the doublechecks  and safety inspections.  I imagine skilled hijackers 
will look for telltales of such ships, avoid the dangerous ones and seek 
the easier marks.

I cannot honestly say that any group of players I'm familiar with has shown 
the planning, forethought, and teamwork necessary to get away with 
hijacking a Traveller ship using what I consider standard antihijacking 
measures and more than a dozen parsecs inside Imperial borders.  I can also 
honestly say that I can envision many ways in which a group of players 
_could_ succeed if only they didn't insist on being such "cowboys".

So, IMTU hijacking can and does happen, particularly near or outside the 
borders of the major interstellar polities.  But players would be foolish 
to try it themselves.  And the standard shipboard safeguards are designed 
to keep crews composed of people like my players from getting themselves or 
others inadvertently killed.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Who wants an atom laser?
Message-ID: <DAV60c7vtdFq7ImxUkM000015b1@hotmail.com>

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/20mar_newmatter.htm

And how useful would one be in space combat?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:14:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:14:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Who wants an atom laser?
In-Reply-To: <DAV60c7vtdFq7ImxUkM000015b1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018289637.113.ajackson@ping>

Texas Redshift writes:
> http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/20mar_newmatter.htm
> 
> And how useful would one be in space combat?

Since they require working at the temperature of a bose-einstein condensate,
not very; the beam would move incredibly slowly, and have a very low energy
content.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGMEANCFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408033711.7417D27A19@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408135946.02824dd0@pop.wizard.net>

At 09:47 AM 4/8/02 -0600, you wrote:
>I was reading an article recently by a US Army surgeon who served in Vietnam
>(Martin Fackler).  He found that the 7.62x39 would penetrate 29 inches of
>ballistic gelatin, the 5.56x45 (M193) penetrates 13+ inches, and the 7.62x51
>penetrates 25 inches (all FMJ).  Although the 7.62x39 had the deepest
>penetration, it produced the least devestating wound.  The bullet
>penetrated, turned around, and then exited.  He says, from his experience in
>Vietnam, the "average uncomplicated thigh wound was about what one would
>expect from a low-powered handgun: a small, punctate entrance and exit wound
>with minimal intervening muscle disruption."  The US 7.62x51 produced an
>uncomplicated wound profile like the 7.26x39.  The 5.56 produced a pretty
>devestating wound, because the bullet would, as it yawed, split in half,
>with the base fragmenting into a number of smaller projectiles.  This
>reduced penetration, but made a big hole (up to 5" in diameter).  Velocity
>had to be at least 2700 fps for the bullet to fragment (muzzle velocity with
>a M16 is like 3200+), and no fragmentation took place until the bullet had
>penetrated 4-5" of tissue.

With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to 
the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300 
feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the 
government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting.

I did all my reading on this topic over a dozen years ago, but I seem to 
recall that there has been plenty of reliable material published that 
debunked the notion of the magical differences causing the 5.56 to tumble, 
etc. when no other bullets were able to achieve the same effect.  I said 
that very poorly.  What I mean is that government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam 
had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other 
assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.  Including poorer 
accuracy.  When combat took place at very limited range, this was less of a 
problem.  Plus the fact that most combatants on either side had a tendency 
to cease fighting when they received more than a superficial wound, unless 
they were heroes or tactical circumstances were desperate.  Sort of 
analagous to playing touch football instead of normal football.  You don't 
have to tackle someone to bring them down, just touch them with both hands 
and they're required to stop running and the play is over.  Contrary to the 
popular image, lots of infantry combat in Viet Nam took place at pretty 
long range.  A sort of contest of wimps, I guess, between the fairly 
lightweight and unstable 5.56 and the more substantial but lower speed 7.62x39.

Let us please leave as a separate thread the discussion of whether aimed 
rifle fire is any different in battlefield effectiveness from unaimed 
fire.  Except to note that _if_ you are an unmodified adherent of the 
theory popular among many experts that there is no difference, then by 
corollary it shouldn't matter whether the rifle used is accurate or 
not.  Continuing to look at that corollary, if two different rifles have 
the same range, inflict equivalent damage on the human body at that range, 
and penetrate cover and concealment equally, then accuracy won't make a 
significant difference in the vast majority of fights at long range.

Please let us not debate the validity of that theory (again) here.  And 
certainly don't ask _me_ to defend that theory, regardless of how many 
people with more knowledge than I have may argue convincingly in its 
favor.  But if you wish to comment on the corollaries I propose above, then 
I think that is virgin territory for us to debate.

>Interestingly, German 7.62x51 bullets have a thinner jacket, and that round
>would fragment like the 5.56.
>
>I have read before that 5.56 soft points have pathetic penetration in
>tissue, but 308 caliber soft points certainly get good penetration and
>produce enormous wounds.  Bullet construction seems to be critical in
>producing wounds; that seems to be largely ignored in Traveller other than
>HE and DS rounds.
>
>I wonder, does the Imperium follow the Geneva convention regarding FMJ
>rounds?

This last part has put your finger on a very important point.  I'm quite 
sure the Geneva Conventions are long since defunct in Milieu 0 and onward, 
although that's just my ever-humble opinion.  ;->  And yes, projectile 
design has a _lot_ to do with ballistics, at least when talking about 
infantry or hunting weapons.

Recently, Tod Glenn seems to have made the most articulate explanations on 
the TML for why gauss weapons will be the infantry weapons of choice at 
tech levels that permit them.  The explanations include convincing reasons 
for typical gauss ammo to both penetrate armor and damage human bodies very 
well without needing a variety of fiendish projectile designs to achieve 
the intended effect.  NB that the projectile needs to be travelling at a 
velocity greater than 1,450 meters per second in order to do all 
this.  Sorry, Tod, to single you out by name but you have indeed been the 
most articulate, informative, and convincing poster on that thread and I 
believe in giving credit where it is due.  :->

Canonical gauss weapons get muzzle velocities well in excess of 1,450 m/s, 
but I am too lazy at the moment to look up the information required to 
calculate how far they will travel down range before falling below that 
important velocity.  But you don't have to be Isaac Newton to realize it's 
plenty far enough to be a useful military longarm.  And that even a long, 
skinny piece of iron travelling at say 800 m/s is something you'd rather 
have not hit you.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408144051.02823ba0@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert Boleyn responds to me on the continuing thread:
>On 8 Apr 2002 at 0:22, laning wrote:
>
> > Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units
> > in Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no
> > provision whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up
> > against the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win
> > because of their balanced organization and integral combat and
> > logistical support, despite their major technological disadvantage.
>
>I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were
>based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped
>their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its
>subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its
>companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it
>belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles,
>field ovens, etc.

The missing TO&E elements that I'm most troubled by are indirect fire 
support weapons and special weapons.  No Auto RAM grenade launchers, no 
light mortars, no heavy machine guns, no antiarmor weapons.  That sort of 
thing.  We can always at least pretend that things like field ovens are 
held by dedicated support units that are outside the battalion or regiment 
level.  I'm also troubled by the lack of staff officers and troops.  There 
is no Logistics, Intelligence, or Operations section in any of the 
battalions or regiments I can recall.  Even the Soviets and the Chinese 
haven't simplified so much that there is no Logistics staff at regimental 
level.  But the biggest problem for me is the lack of supporting arms that 
you'd expect from TL 12 and TL 14 or 15 organizations.


>I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
>the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
>used to supply and support its troops.

Yeah, it's unclear to me exactly what mission the Milieu 1100 Imperial army 
and marines are tailored to.  Fully mobilized general warfare against 
opponents like the Outworld Coalition?  Internal control and 
policing?  Border defense against pocket empires and pirates?  And just how 
much orbital supremacy do they count on achieving and maintaining?  Perhaps 
all they expect from their regiments is for them to be glorified armed 
reconnaissance sufficient to get ortillery observers to bring accurate fire 
onto important targets and then accept the surrender of local opposition 
commanders.  I am comfortable with that sort of scenario happening a lot, 
but certainly not all, of the time.  But even so, the regiments would be 
much better off as true combined arms teams, not just a bunch of mobile 
riflemen.

I'm something of a so-called grognard gamer at this point, and maybe my 
desire for more detailed TO&Es is the incipient miniatures player in me.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 13:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 12:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
 <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>

Doug Berry says:

>GT Ground Forces has complete brigade and regiment TO&Es for the Unified 
>Armies of the Imperium and the Imperial Marine Force.  I spent most of my 
>time developing the support units, and much of the Operations chapter is 
>dedicated to issues of supply and support.
>
>The Standard Issue chapter has the 30,000dton Keith-class brigade 
>transport, along with its six Nakerth-class landers.. 1,200 tons each, 
>carrying a full combat battalion to a world's surface. There is also the 
>Caen-class dropship, the standard 1,200 transport for the Imperial Marines.
>
>Among the vehicles included are a recovery sled, a heavy G-Carrier, and an 
>engineering sled.

It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and 
equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really 
good work being done there.

The Keith-class was named in honor?  Well done.  :->

If I were the Imperium, I wouldn't bother to build standard troop 
transports that carry less than a complete battalion.  Brigades or 
divisions would have logistical elements that are more forward on the 
battlefield, and most of the logistical tail on the ground would be at 
corps level or higher.  It sounds like the Keith class represents pretty 
similar thinking.  :->

I think there is a very important, but still subsidiary, role for ships 
that transport and land Imperial Marine companies and it sounds like you 
think the same way.  You're probably aware that the US considers the Marine 
battalion to be the standard chunk to embark and deploy, plus full 
supporting elements.  But there are a lot of ways in which they are poor 
analogues for Imperial Marines.

Your grav sleds make a lot of sense.  I bet you have ambulance sleds, aid 
station sleds, and field kitchen sleds too?

Finally, I've been meaning for a long time to compliment you on the sig 
about embracing fascism because the uniforms look cool.  Nice.
:->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 13:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 12:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:04:22PM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net> <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020408130651.A1686@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:04:22PM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and 
> equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really 
> good work being done there.

It's probably a better investment than anything in the CT family...

GURPS is actually pretty nice.  I'm still hoping for GURPS: 1889
(first, use every cinematic rule...).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 13:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 12:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <20020408130651.A1686@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
 <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408153253.02eaa320@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl replies to me:
>On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:04:22PM -0400, laning wrote:
> >
> > It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and
> > equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really
> > good work being done there.
>
>It's probably a better investment than anything in the CT family...

But I already own everything in the CT family.  :->

Except a couple of alien modules, dangit.  I'm getting pretty strung out 
waiting for the reprint from Far Future!

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
Message-ID: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>But I already own everything in the CT family.  :->
>
I have that, the reprints, and everything that Leading Edge 
ever printed for Phoenix Command.

And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as 
PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.

I've noticed that with skill resolution or combat resolution 
systems, you've got too simple (CT), or simply inaccurate 
with too much potatoes (GURPS), or wildly inaccurate with 
long weapon lists (Rifts), or terribly accurate but nearly 
unplayable unless you are all gearheads with 12 hours to do 
60 seconds of combat (PCCS).

Friends, there has to be something better. Something that is 
a compromise between CT and PCCS, that doesn't make gross 
errors, that's as quick to play as Shellshock, and now Doug 
will beat me with a penguin....

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam Draper)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>

laning@wizard.net wrote:

>With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to
>the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300
>feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the
>government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting."

I have not heard this before about Vietnam era ammo.  I can tell you that
current production military production Lake City and Winchester ammo is
meeting mil-spec (3200+ fps for M193 (for M16A1s) and 3000+ fps for M855
(for M16A2s)).  The army still buys M16A1 ammo for rifles still in service
with the National Guard.  It is not match ammo, but the accuracy is pretty
good.  Certainly good enough to hit a torso at 500 yards with iron sights.

>government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam
>had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other
>assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.  Including poorer
>accuracy.

This guy Facker's experiences were exactly the opposite.  Most of the
comlaints I have heard about the early M16 stems from the poor reliability,
which was a result of the Army using the wrong kind of powder.  There is
also a pretty big prejudice against the smaller caliber, which is somewhat
understandable given that few states allow hunters to use .223 on big game.
And deer do not shoot back.  But the 7.62x39 is pretty similar ballistically
to the venerable 30/30; with FMJ bullets it would hardly be a death ray
either.

That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than the
AK-47 or even the M14.

>Let us please leave as a separate thread the discussion of whether aimed
>rifle fire is any different in battlefield effectiveness from unaimed
>fire.

Like I said above, the M16 is a very accurate platform.  It will make pretty
small holes once the muzzle velocity falls below 2700 fps (about 15-200
yards).  Fortunately, like you said, most opponents will take a powder once
they are shot, no matter how severe the wound.

>Recently, Tod Glenn seems to have made the most articulate explanations on
>the TML for why gauss weapons will be the infantry weapons of choice at
>tech levels that permit them.

That is very interesting.  I have read in tests that little darts at high
velocities are remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do
little tissue damage.  But odd things happen at high velocities.  I'll see
if I can dig up my source.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:15:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:15:38 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
In-Reply-To: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D7483C.37BB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 12:59 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as
> PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.

Please enlighten me.  PCCS?
> 
> I've noticed that with skill resolution or combat resolution
> systems, you've got too simple (CT), or simply inaccurate
> with too much potatoes (GURPS), or wildly inaccurate with
> long weapon lists (Rifts), or terribly accurate but nearly
> unplayable unless you are all gearheads with 12 hours to do
> 60 seconds of combat (PCCS).

That's the GM's jog, isn't it?  Personally, I like a combat system that can
be handled with a couple of die rolls.  I use modified CT and fill in the
missing details

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
In-Reply-To: <B8D7483C.37BB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018297856.1051.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 4/8/02 12:59 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as
> > PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.
> 
> Please enlighten me.  PCCS?

I'd guess on phoenix command.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:56:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:56:04 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
Message-ID: <200204082055.DQH04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn asks
>
>Please enlighten me.  PCCS?

Phoenix Command Combat System, 4th Edition, with all 
supplements. A product of the now defunct Leading Edge Games.

>
>That's the GM's jog, isn't it?  Personally, I like a combat 
>system that can be handled with a couple of die rolls.  I 
>use modified CT and fill in the missing details
>

The rolls are quick enough for the experienced GM using PCCS -
 it's the players who choke on it if they don't like having 
to plan their actions to the Nth detail, or look through 
tables, or recalculate this and that.  It comes with a 
stripped down version as well, but if you had bought PCCS for 
the realism, the stripped version bites.

Also, the wounding and incapacitation tends to be tedious.  
You do receive points of damage, but most of the time it's so 
far off the scale you just fall down and die later.  Rifle 
rounds in particular will just *do* you.  One hit from a 
Garand in the torso and you're going to die if the medic 
doesn't stabilize you (that's if you didn't die outright).  
The odds of a graze are not as high as you would like.  And 
you *can* kill someone with a .22 pistol shot to the eye, if 
you're lucky.  Try and kill someone with a body pistol in 
CT.  It won't happen to the average character.  OTOH, you 
could be hit by two people who empty their Walther PPKs into 
you in PCCS, and if you're hit just right, you won't fall 
down until later.  Gives you that extra time to point that 
Super 90 in their direction and make them eat it.

The advanced small arms damage tables from the game came from 
Computerman, a model you may recall.  Now try that by hand 
instead of by computer.

Not like some games where you get popped with 3D6 and keep 
running.

You can take it to extremes: bullets have "time of flight", 
weapons have a maximum ballistic accuracy, a maximum aim time 
beyond which aiming does no good, some weapons come to aim 
quicker but less accurately than others, while others may be 
slower but far more sure.  Excellent shotgun rules. There are 
good rules for leadership and planning.  Extensive animal 
rules, which are quite good.  Hand to hand is not so good, 
but you'll be shot before you get that close.  Blind fire, 3-
round burst, it goes on and on.  If you're a weapon gearhead, 
this is definitely the combat system for you. My favorite 
supplement has riot control weapons (plastic coated steel 
balls and rubber baton rounds), claymore, miniguns, 
flamethrowers, etc.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:17:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:17:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408170314.024b6258@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:46 PM 4/8/2002, Sam Draper wrote:
>I have read in tests that little darts at high velocities are remarkably 
>innefective.  They just punch through and do little tissue damage.

 From what I recall reading, the 60's era Army tests with high-velocity 
flechettes in the SPIW program.  This weapon was proposed by AAI, and fired 
65 gram steel flechette at high velocity (about 4800fps).  It was supposed 
to be quite effective at energy transfer - the dart would deform on hitting 
the target, and cause massive wounding.  In the 80's, Styr's Advanced 
Combat Rifle used the same general type of projectile.  In both projects, 
difficulties in manufacturing the ammunition led to relatively low accuracy.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408170314.024b6258@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>

Derek Wildstar writes:
> At 03:46 PM 4/8/2002, Sam Draper wrote:
> >I have read in tests that little darts at high velocities are remarkably 
> >innefective.  They just punch through and do little tissue damage.
> 
>  From what I recall reading, the 60's era Army tests with high-velocity 
> flechettes in the SPIW program.  This weapon was proposed by AAI, and fired
>  65 gram steel flechette at high velocity (about 4800fps).

I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).  A 65 gram
projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 2:21 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).  A 65 gram
> projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.


I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:53:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:53:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408170314.024b6258@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175151.020da5c8@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:21 PM 4/8/2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain

Probably.  ;-)  I'm at work, so I'm working from memory ...


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175242.01e90560@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:47 PM 4/8/2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
>I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.

That would be the one - I couldn't remember it's number (all I could 
remember was the name of the program, "SPIW".  I vaguely recall that AAI 
built the initial weapon, and that one of the armories made improved 
versions - but they had trouble with the tolerances on the ammo, and 
couldn't make it reliable enough for economical manufacture, let alone 
issue - so the M16 got the nod).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:56:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:56:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175242.01e90560@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:47 PM 4/8/2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
>I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.

That would be the one - I couldn't remember it's number (all I could 
remember was the name of the program, "SPIW".  I vaguely recall that AAI 
built the initial weapon, and that one of the armories made improved 
versions - but they had trouble with the tolerances on the ammo, and 
couldn't make it reliable enough for economical manufacture, let alone 
issue - so the M16 got the nod).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 16:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 15:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175151.020da5c8@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <B8D760BD.37C1C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 2:52 PM, Derek Wildstar at wildstar@qrc.com wrote:

> At 05:21 PM 4/8/2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain
> 
> Probably.  ;-)  I'm at work, so I'm working from memory ...

Aha!  Don't have your copy of the Stevens and Ezell book (The deadliest
weapon that never was). How fortuitous that I have that little factoid
memorized.  My wife says I have the gum brain.  <g>
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 16:17:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Mon Apr  8 15:17:35 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Ship Storage
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17920@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

	Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
on the number of ship's crew and other factors?

Mikey:
I figured that Life Support for X days covers food
space/requirements/storage. Anything extra above that for life support is 1
ton = 150 man days of food/supplies (based on Belt Strike????)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 16:44:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 15:44:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408144051.02823ba0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB2C59D.18860.53D550@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 14:53, laning wrote:

> The missing TO&E elements that I'm most troubled by are indirect fire
> support weapons and special weapons.  No Auto RAM grenade launchers, no
> light mortars, no heavy machine guns, no antiarmor weapons.  That sort
> of thing.  We can always at least pretend that things like field ovens
> are held by dedicated support units that are outside the battalion or
> regiment level.  I'm also troubled by the lack of staff officers and
> troops.  There is no Logistics, Intelligence, or Operations section in
> any of the battalions or regiments I can recall.  Even the Soviets and
> the Chinese haven't simplified so much that there is no Logistics staff
> at regimental level.  But the biggest problem for me is the lack of
> supporting arms that you'd expect from TL 12 and TL 14 or 15
> organizations.

Looking at the TO they have artillery at Regimental and Battalion 
level, armed with MRLs and missile launchers. The APCs carry 6 tac 
missiles (except fire support models which have VRF gauss MGs instead) 
and thirty smaller fire & forget missiles. They also have the use of 
three SDBs for ortillery support. All this from _The Spinward Marches 
Campaign_. Even so they seem to be under equipped with indirect fire 
support (more like a Soviet tank regiment than anything else). I 
suspect (though CT didn't say much on this AFAIK) that good point-
defence systems could have a lot to do with this - you'd want to use a 
lot of direct fire and _fast_ rockets and missiles in such an 
environment.

They also have 10 Ramparts, for local aerospace superoirity missions 
and recon I presume. I'm not sure of the utility of these, to be 
honest.

SMC doesn't say what the troopies are equiped with, but Striker II 
(which has the same TO listed) tells us that they're all in TL-14 heavy 
battledress and have fusion rifles and tac missiles in each 5-man 
squad.

> >I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
> >the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
> >used to supply and support its troops.
> 
> Yeah, it's unclear to me exactly what mission the Milieu 1100 Imperial
> army and marines are tailored to.  Fully mobilized general warfare
> against opponents like the Outworld Coalition?

That would be the Army, but not all of it. I suspect you'd need the TO 
of one of the units used in the Seige of Terra to get a look at an 
Imperial 'assault' or 'tank' unit.

> Internal control and
> policing?  Border defense against pocket empires and pirates?  And just
> how much orbital supremacy do they count on achieving and maintaining?

All of it, of course.

> Perhaps all they expect from their regiments is for them to be glorified
> armed reconnaissance sufficient to get ortillery observers to bring
> accurate fire onto important targets and then accept the surrender of
> local opposition commanders.  I am comfortable with that sort of
> scenario happening a lot, but certainly not all, of the time.  But even
> so, the regiments would be much better off as true combined arms teams,
> not just a bunch of mobile riflemen.

They do have a lot of organic firepower, and a decent number of tanks. 
Again it looks more like a Soviet unit than a Western one (MR in this 
case) - lots of organic direct-fire and anti-tank support, and the 
artillery held higher up. And those tanks are really big and nasty, 
BTW.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
References: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB220F3.A0C5FF6A@premier.net>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Friends, there has to be something better. Something that is
> a compromise between CT and PCCS, that doesn't make gross
> errors, that's as quick to play as Shellshock, and now Doug
> will beat me with a penguin....
> 
Nah, he'll just hit you with a rolled-up copy of _At Close Quarters_....

http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?BITSRACQ

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
In-Reply-To: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020408193202.00e31ac0@buffnet.net>

At 03:59 PM 4/8/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>laning says
>>
>>But I already own everything in the CT family.  :->
>>
>I have that, the reprints, and everything that Leading Edge 
>ever printed for Phoenix Command.
>
>And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as 
>PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.

Two comments:

1) PCCS can be streamlined with the use of Excel
2) PCCS doesn't differentiate between someone who knows how to use a pistol
versus one who uses a shotgun


If you want to, build a simple database using excel and have a single page
that has the following entries:

Weapon
aim point
aim time
range
Stance
daylight

Die roll to hit

From that, it should be simple enough to determine what the results are...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408232954.14194.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
But yeah, the unit suffered from Hollywooditis. Who
issues a support weapon you have to use standing up?
END QUOTE

If you gave me a support weapon that had thermal
seeking rounds I would use it standing up ;) And
remember they where colonial marines. Probably didn't
get as much training as they should.

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020408233500.27629.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
>>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be
>>defeated rather easily by someone ruthless enough.
>>That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be attached to
>>the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...

> I see we've met some of the same player characters. 
:->

Alas, I understand that there have actually been a
couple of real world cases of this already. And it's
been a standard dodge in fiction for *at least* 50
years.
END QUOTE

I read in the paper that a finger print scanner that
tells if the finger is a live by scanning under the
top layers of skin has been developed. This will
bugger up all those PC's who chop of peoples fingers
;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
Message-ID: <200204082337.DQN01624@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

hal@buffnet.net  says
>Two comments:
>
>1) PCCS can be streamlined with the use of Excel
>2) PCCS doesn't differentiate between someone who knows how 
>to use a pistol versus one who uses a shotgun
>
That's up to the referee to divide gun combat skills. It 
would appear that the designers left the "roleplaying" part 
of the game in a half-baked condition.  However, I haven't 
had any trouble mapping the system to CT skills.

>If you want to, build a simple database using excel and have 
>a single page that has the following entries:
>
>Weapon
>aim point
>aim time
>range
>Stance
>daylight
>
>Die roll to hit
>
That's not the problem so much as the players being happy 
with the action sequencing and pre-planned movement (in the 
advanced rules).  Most players are uncomfortable with action 
counts to that level of detail (a much higher level of detail 
than At Close Quarters or Snapshot).  

I've written an application in Smalltalk to do the whole 
firing and damage sequence - that was easy.  But it didn't 
solve the player's dislike of millisecond level detail.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408235622.20414.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
We'll gladly take you, son.  You don't have to be a
U.S. citizen to be a U.S. Marine.  I shared a barracks
room for a year with a Lebanese Christian 
who was still a Lebanese citizen.  Contact the closest
American consulate if you're serious.  Be sure to be
able to do lots of pull ups from a dead hang and run
three miles in under say 24 minutes.

And when you get off the plane to go to the Marine
Corps Recruit Depot, just remember these two words: 
"yellow footprints".  <WEG>

Much more serious advice.  Possibly the most important
advice you will ever get in your life.  Find an MOS
that gives you the training and expertise you want to
use in your civilian career after you get it, and get
that guaranteed in writing and signed by an officer. 
Do not accept any talk no matter how reasonable or
persuasive as a substitute.  Get the MOS you want, 
guaranteed.  In writing.  In writing.

--Laning
END QUOTE

Well I would try that except my mother would kill me
;)
She worries enough about me joining the reserves here,
let alone the regular army or god forbid the USMC. She
really worries that with all that's happening there is
going to be another big war. I will however take your
advice on getting my MOS guaranteed in writing from an
officer. I wouldn't want to end up cooking :) I may
even move down near Sydney so I can join a cavalry
unit. That way I wouldn't have to be a dirty rotten
leg :)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 18:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Mon Apr  8 17:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
In-Reply-To: <200204082337.DQN01624@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHMEDNDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

>> John Kwon
>> But it didn't solve the player's dislike of millisecond level detail.

Having played PCCS, I like the system a great deal.  However, actual use
becomes more of a simulation as opposed to an RPG, which is my take on why
people dont like it.  It is hard to come up with a good balance as players
want a wide spectrum of "realism" in their games.

As for the skills in the game, the rules were always meant to be added into
other systems as a combat overlay.  They just say "Gun skill" and leave the
referee to decide if it is for all Pistols, a specific pistol, or simply all
firearms.

Justin


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 18:32:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 17:32:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
In-Reply-To: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHMEDNDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
References: <200204082337.DQN01624@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020408203714.00e31ac0@buffnet.net>

At 05:23 PM 4/8/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>>> John Kwon
>>> But it didn't solve the player's dislike of millisecond level detail.
>
>Having played PCCS, I like the system a great deal.  However, actual use
>becomes more of a simulation as opposed to an RPG, which is my take on why
>people dont like it.  It is hard to come up with a good balance as players
>want a wide spectrum of "realism" in their games.
>
>As for the skills in the game, the rules were always meant to be added into
>other systems as a combat overlay.  They just say "Gun skill" and leave the
>referee to decide if it is for all Pistols, a specific pistol, or simply all
>firearms.

At one point in time, I created a set of rules for using PCCS with GURPS.
It worked relatively well.  My players still remember the time they caught
a military patrol in a ravine.  They had two laws plus assorted personal
fire arms (was an Aftermath like scenario).  Took out the radioman plus the
officer, along with the squad weapon user.  After that, it was mostly a mop
up.  The trick to using GURPS with PCCS is to use Movement points as action
points.  The average DX guy using guns with no weapon skill is a skill
rating of 7.  Someone marginally trained in the weapon is skill 10.  The
chart of course continues from there...

         Hal

PS - if you have the sci-fi version of the weapons from PCCS, it makes for
an interesting mix ;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 18:35:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 17:35:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB2DFC4.13707.BA0366@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 13:46, Sam Draper wrote:

> That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
> because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than
> the AK-47 or even the M14.

In that case the M14 must be considerably less accurate than the old M1 
Garand its based on. IMER the M1 is at least as accurate as the M16A1, 
assuming similar conditions.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408181400.027f5840@pop.wizard.net>

At 01:46 PM 4/8/02 -0600, you wrote:
>laning@wizard.net wrote:
>
> >With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to
> >the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300
> >feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the
> >government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting."
>
>I have not heard this before about Vietnam era ammo.

In the 1980s also.  Marines I knew would take samples home and take them 
apart.  I believe it was the sniper school at Quantico where one of the 
officers told me that the bullets were 52 grains, on average, rather than 
the 55 grains the government was paying for.  And there wasn't as much 
powder as there was supposed to be, but don't recall the specific numbers 
now.  I seem to recall reading something similar somewhere at the time, 
maybe in 'Soldier of Fortune'?  Anyway, I was told by the people who 
randomly checked the ammo that reached the front-line troops that we were 
typically getting 2100 fps, and it wasn't very unusual to get under 1800 
fps.  All of this is subject to my memory working correctly, which isn't 
just a boilerplate warning, I have significant problems with it.  The same 
kind of scams take place in government purchasing all the time.  Once the 
initial production runs have been accepted, the quality checks are very 
coarse and easy to see coming.  And possibly there's some graft at work, 
too.  Everything from clothing being a little lighter weight than paid for 
to rations being a little lighter.  An unscrupulous contractor often finds 
it's easy to increase their profit margin by five percent or so, this way.


>   I can tell you that
>current production military production Lake City and Winchester ammo is
>meeting mil-spec (3200+ fps for M193 (for M16A1s) and 3000+ fps for M855
>(for M16A2s)).

How is this data verified or acquired, please?  I'm just curious to get 
another data point, not being accusatory or argumentative.  :->

>   The army still buys M16A1 ammo for rifles still in service
>with the National Guard.  It is not match ammo, but the accuracy is pretty
>good.  Certainly good enough to hit a torso at 500 yards with iron sights.

We were all doing that with our crappy ammo in the 1980s.  It's easy when 
they hold nice and still and you can take your time firing.

> >government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam
> >had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other
> >assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.  Including poorer
> >accuracy.
>
>This guy Facker's experiences were exactly the opposite.  Most of the
>comlaints I have heard about the early M16 stems from the poor reliability,
>which was a result of the Army using the wrong kind of powder.

Partly.  What I hear mentioned only rarely is that any really high velocity 
weapon necessarily requires closer working tolerances for moving 
parts.  That means it doesn't take much foreign material or carbon 
accumulation to jam or slow down a moving part.  Which leads us to the 
major difference between the M-16 and the M-16A1, addition of the forward 
assist to help clear jams and addition of the ejection port cover to help 
keep foreign material away from the bolt.

>   There is
>also a pretty big prejudice against the smaller caliber, which is somewhat
>understandable given that few states allow hunters to use .223 on big game.
>And deer do not shoot back.  But the 7.62x39 is pretty similar ballistically
>to the venerable 30/30; with FMJ bullets it would hardly be a death ray
>either.

The talk about pros and cons of various infantry weapons is so larded with 
prejudices that I figure none of us who open our mouths on the topic are 
completely free of some prejudice on it.  And many are really bad.  John 
Wayne smashing the M-16 against a tree in 'The Green Berets' and calling it 
a child's plastic toy and blaming it for the death of his troops.  Well, 
they couldn't smash a real M-16 against a tree because alloy and fiberglass 
is a lot tougher than what they thought of it back in 1966.  The director 
had to get an actual plastic toy imitation of an M-16 so that "the Duke" 
could smash it.  And there are at least tens of thousands of people who to 
this day think it's a cheap plastic piece of junk because of that 
movie.  People who carried one in a combat zone themselves and should know 
better.


>That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
>because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than the
>AK-47 or even the M14.
>
> >Let us please leave as a separate thread the discussion of whether aimed
> >rifle fire is any different in battlefield effectiveness from unaimed
> >fire.
>
>Like I said above, the M16 is a very accurate platform.  It will make pretty
>small holes once the muzzle velocity falls below 2700 fps (about 15-200
>yards).  Fortunately, like you said, most opponents will take a powder once
>they are shot, no matter how severe the wound.
The muzzle velocity remains the same, regardless of how far away the target 
is.  Muzzle velocity is the speed of the bullet as it leaves the 
muzzle.  The projectile velocity declines as it loses momentum from air 
friction and succumbing to gravity.  Muzzle velocity for government ammo 
for the A1 was just over 2700 fps.  I should be able to remember the 
precise figure, I thought that was indelibly inscribed in memory.  Had 
trouble the other day remembering my EAS date too!  Imagine that one.  I 
guess the Marine Corps Birthday will be the next to go, followed by my own 
birthday.  Hand loaders can get 3250 fps with a 56-grain bullet.  Anyway, 
it shot pretty accurately for me on the rifle range even on some fairly 
windy days.  And my score went up about 4 or 5 points when they gave me the A2.

The 5.56 in each of its incarnations ended up being a distinct improvement 
over the M-1 carbine in performance, and a lot more manageable than those 
big ol' M-14s.  The days I had to go on long runs with a rifle at port arms 
I was damned glad that the M-14 was before my time, let me tell you!  As I 
recall learning it, the story of the M-16 becoming the standard US infantry 
rifle was as much politics as anything else.  It found its way to being 
proposed for sale to military allies in Southeast Asia and other places 
where the average soldier was much smaller and lighter than the average US 
soldier (because of its lighter weight and lower recoil), wound up being 
used by special American units that worked closely with said allies as much 
for compatibility as anything, then was chosen as a suitable "carbine" 
replacement for troops in vehicles and such who only need something for 
self defense, and finally ended up being given to everyone in the name of 
standardization.  At almost each step on that path, something more was done 
to nerf the weapon.  I am sure I don't have all the details right, but 
that's the gist of it.  The A2 model was basically a step towards 
un-nerfing it, and giving it back some of the power it had in one of its 
earlier forms.  That decision too, was as much politics as anything 
else.  The official reason given was compatibility with the 5.56 ammo used 
by NATO allies.

Basically, the M-16 is a good varmint rifle on steroids, with the furniture 
and "accessories" suitable for a good assault rifle.  Just like the M-1 
Garand or M-14 are good deer and other medium game rifles on steroids, with 
improved furniture and "accessories" for their day and suitable for the 
battlefield.

I don't think it's a stupid idea to take a varmint rifle and turn it into a 
combat rifle.  It does have its advantages.  But I'd feel more sanguine 
about firing a 130-, 150- or 180-grain bullet from something chambered for 
7.62 NATO or .303 British than a 55-grain bullet.  Like most other things, 
it's a combination of trade offs because you can't have one thing that will 
give you all the attributes you wish for.


> >Recently, Tod Glenn seems to have made the most articulate explanations on
> >the TML for why gauss weapons will be the infantry weapons of choice at
> >tech levels that permit them.
>
>That is very interesting.  I have read in tests that little darts at high
>velocities are remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do
>little tissue damage.  But odd things happen at high velocities.  I'll see
>if I can dig up my source.

We're talking about gauss weapon projectiles moving at speeds well in 
excess of 1,450 meters per second or faster, not feet per second.  Just to 
remind everyone of the perspective.  By way of comparison, the nominal 
2,710 feet/second muzzle velocity of the old M-16 is only 826 meters/second.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408211451.027f3ec0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon's soul quests desperately for completion:

>I've noticed that with skill resolution or combat resolution
>systems, you've got too simple (CT), or simply inaccurate
>with too much potatoes (GURPS), or wildly inaccurate with
>long weapon lists (Rifts), or terribly accurate but nearly
>unplayable unless you are all gearheads with 12 hours to do
>60 seconds of combat (PCCS).
>
>Friends, there has to be something better.

Perfect opportunity for computer-aided gaming.  Combat software with the 
terrain map, weather, characters, equipment, etc. and the player tells the 
ref what he wants his character to do and the ref tells the 
computer.  Enter the moves for all characters, then hit Enter and find out 
what happens.  All input and output should go through the ref, so the ref 
can alter the cut & dried calculations to conform with what the referee 
believes or wants to manipulate.

Nobody seems interesting in writing that software because they're either 
writing traditional RPG rules, miniatures rules, or a complete computer 
game.  I must say it's hard to think of a business model where the 
developers will get paid more than nickels and dimes, so it's hard to blame 
folks for not doing it.

What's needed is a Nonprofit Institute for the Advancement of Game Design, 
with good funding.  There is something a little bit like that out there 
now, but it focuses on complete computer games and has various troubles 
including funding.  Or an open-source movement for computer-aided gaming 
that's widespread, the way the Linus open-source movement is widespread.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:26:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:26:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408180047.009f1d00@mindspring.com>

At 12:32 AM 4/9/02 +1200, you wrote:

>I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were
>based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped
>their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its
>subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its
>companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it
>belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles,
>field ovens, etc.

Give the man a see-gar.  I based the Imperial Army units in GF on the 
standards for Soviet units of similar size and missions. A Motorized Rifle 
Regiment was supposed to be a self-contained combat unit, able to fight on 
its own without the constant need to be tied to higher command just to 
perform its basic mission.

>I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
>the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
>used to supply and support its troops.

Remember what they say about assumptions...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:27:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:27:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408180410.00a05160@mindspring.com>

At 01:14 PM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>What about the Sergeant (Apone?) - I thought the role of an NCO was to 
>stop the officers messing everything up? Clearly he has more experience 
>than Gorman and yet he's quite happy to lead his troops into an unknown 
>environment against an unknown force AND he gives all the ammo to one man.

Apone was given a legal order by his commanding officer.  He followed 
it.  Evidently, SOP was to have one man carry all the ammo.  Oops. I'm 
surprised he didn't know that Drake had the extra BFG thingies.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
 <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408181304.009eb5c0@mindspring.com>

At 03:04 PM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and 
>equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really 
>good work being done there.

More than half the book is game neutral.  Just good information about the 
forces.

>The Keith-class was named in honor?  Well done.  :->

The lander's name is the M. Keith's name run through a Vilani name generator.


>If I were the Imperium, I wouldn't bother to build standard troop 
>transports that carry less than a complete battalion.  Brigades or 
>divisions would have logistical elements that are more forward on the 
>battlefield, and most of the logistical tail on the ground would be at 
>corps level or higher.  It sounds like the Keith class represents pretty 
>similar thinking.  :->

Yep.  I had a design for a *divisional* cold-sleep ship, but I had to make 
some space choices.

>I think there is a very important, but still subsidiary, role for ships 
>that transport and land Imperial Marine companies and it sounds like you 
>think the same way.  You're probably aware that the US considers the 
>Marine battalion to be the standard chunk to embark and deploy, plus full 
>supporting elements.  But there are a lot of ways in which they are poor 
>analogues for Imperial Marines.

Credit where credit is due Dpt. The vehicle and ship designs were the work 
of others.. I just put out deign ideas on a mailing list I established for 
the purpose, and we debated the various designs.  The entire 
Sunburst-series missile sleds were really fun to come up with.

>Your grav sleds make a lot of sense.  I bet you have ambulance sleds, aid 
>station sleds, and field kitchen sleds too?

These are simple conversion of the basic G-carrier, much like the US Army 
has these variations for the Hum-vee.'

>Finally, I've been meaning for a long time to compliment you on the sig 
>about embracing fascism because the uniforms look cool.  Nice.

Once again, not mine.  It was uttered on the TML by a soul who asked not to 
be attributed in the sig.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:35:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:35:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408180047.009f1d00@mindspring.com>
References: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB2EDB0.4851.F063FB@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 18:03, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 12:32 AM 4/9/02 +1200, you wrote:
> 
> >I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were
> >based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped
> >their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its
> >subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its
> >companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it
> >belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles,
> >field ovens, etc.
> 
> Give the man a see-gar.  I based the Imperial Army units in GF on the
> standards for Soviet units of similar size and missions. A Motorized
> Rifle Regiment was supposed to be a self-contained combat unit, able to
> fight on its own without the constant need to be tied to higher command
> just to perform its basic mission.

I was actually talking about the SMC and Striker II Imperial units (I 
already knew yours were based of the Soviets, though to me some of them 
look more like a US unit).
 
> >I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
> >the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
> >used to supply and support its troops.
> 
> Remember what they say about assumptions...

I never claimed that the Imperium was always right, or omnicompetent. 
:)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:38:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:38:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
Message-ID: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning tasks me
>
>Perfect opportunity for computer-aided gaming.  Combat 
>software with the terrain map, weather, characters, 
>equipment, etc. and the player tells the 
>ref what he wants his character to do and the ref tells the 
>computer.  Enter the moves for all characters, then hit 
>Enter and find out 
>what happens.

There's no reason I couldn't write this.  There's no reason 
it couldn't run over the Internet, either.

Damn you, laning....
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:39:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:39:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408181304.009eb5c0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB2EEB9.12979.F4729E@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 18:19, Douglas Berry wrote:

> Once again, not mine.  It was uttered on the TML by a soul who asked not
> to be attributed in the sig.

Wasn't that in relation to the Starship Troopers movie?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:41:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:41:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <200204090139.DQR01653@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>Oops. I'm surprised he didn't know that Drake had the extra 
>BFG thingies.
>

If I had the weapon out of the armory, M-16 or M21 or M24, I 
always had ammunition - even if I had not been issued any, or 
had been ordered to "give it up".
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 20:01:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 19:01:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408211451.027f3ec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:21:16PM -0400
References: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020408211451.027f3ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020408200055.A2997@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:21:16PM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> Nobody seems interesting in writing that software because they're either 
> writing traditional RPG rules, miniatures rules, or a complete computer 
> game.  I must say it's hard to think of a business model where the 
> developers will get paid more than nickels and dimes, so it's hard to blame 
> folks for not doing it.

My business model is I write software I want, then GPL it.  Thus it is
now and forevermore free, and will hopefully be of some use to the
world at large.  I pay for food by another mechanism entirely.

> Or an open-source movement for computer-aided gaming that's
> widespread, the way the Linux open-source movement is widespread.

Well, it's easy enough: start writing.  Linux didn't start out
well-funded; indeed, the vast majority of its development was
_unfunded_.  The whole mechanism is that one writes the kind of
software one wishes to use--then by using it, discovers where the
problems are, and fixes them.  The use of the GPL ensures that anyone
else who fixes a problem is incented to release his (small)
modification to your (major) work.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We English-speaking peoples should keep hold of the essential fact about
foreign languages: They exist to make us laugh.        --John Derbyshire

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 20:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 19:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <3CB2EEB9.12979.F4729E@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408181304.009eb5c0@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408190941.009f9670@mindspring.com>

At 01:38 PM 4/9/02 +1200, you wrote:
>On 8 Apr 2002 at 18:19, Douglas Berry wrote:
>
> > Once again, not mine.  It was uttered on the TML by a soul who asked not
> > to be attributed in the sig.
>
>Wasn't that in relation to the Starship Troopers movie?

Yep.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 20:53:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon Apr  8 19:53:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 08, 2002 12:47:07 AM
Message-ID: <200204090153.g391rtO02801@localhost.uia.net>

> Chemical reaction rates depend strongly on the mass of the atoms. Atoms
> with similar properties (same column in the periodic table) react at
> rates that are strongly connected with their mass differences. 
>
> So the rates might increase dramaticly.

Under, say 99%, inertial suppression, the mass-ratios would still
be the same as under zero suppression.
 
> Molecular collisions in air would result in the molecules stopping,
> rather than rebounding. So the opposing portions of their vectors would
> cancel out. Add in the effects of gravity, and all the air molecules
> would be in a thin layer near the floor. 

But gravity would have less of a pull of the air molecules, being that
they would have a lower apparent mass under inertial suppresion, so
again we're looking at these effects cancelling each other out.

> Thermal effects on the gases get weird too.

I'm not sure how to handle these.

Speaking on the atomic level:
> Then you're dead. Too many of the forces at those levels *do* depend on
> inertia. Lowering inertia raises the *effective* force.

I'm not sure what the effective force is. I've heard of strong, the
weak, the electromagnetic, and gravity. Maybe we should only be
considering these forces and how atoms would be effected different by
a lower constant for inertia across the entire system being considered.
Basically, I'm looking for an effect that would not cancel out. In
the first example you gave, you say that one molecule won't react
properly with another because the former's mass is too low. But what
if both of their masses are lower by the same percentage? In the
second example, you say that atoms bouncing against each other will
tend not to bounce as much under inertial suppression, and will tend
to crowd at the floor. But you fail to consider that gravity will have
less of a pull on inertia-suppressed molecules, so that the crowding
shouldn't occur. I think it would be better to look at really simple
problems in a closed system involving only a pair of atoms to show
how their movements would be changed if BOTH of their apparent masses
were lowered by the same percentage.

If we only look at gravity, I don't see there being any difference
in their movements. Masses fall at the same speed (newton). So inertial
supression should have no effect on gravity. As for the other four
forces, I don't know enough physics to answer that.

> As an example, the reason that water doesn't boil at around -150 F is
> because of Van der waals forces. Compare the boiling points of hydrogen
> oxide, hydrogen sulfide, and so on down that column in the periodic
> table. All of them *but* H2O have very low boiling points. 
>
> Lowering the inertia of the molecules will have the effect of adding
> similar forces. Which will change the physical and chemical properties
> of compounds *drastically*. 

Does this example consider that the entire system is inertially
suppressed to the same percentage, and that all four of the fundamental
forces are effected accordingly?

> >> This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
> >> work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
> >> viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.
> >
> > Except that your heart would also be of a lower apparent mass.
> 
> What's *that* got to do with it? The pumping forces are due to
> contraction of the muscle fibers. The mass of the heart has little
> relevance there. The only effect it'd have (to the first order, anyway)
> is making it *easier* to contract. 

Which is why I'd rather look at really simple systems of only a
pair of atoms, so that all the complicating factors can be taken
out of the way and we can see what would really occur at the most
fundamental level.
 
> > Instead of thinking of a normal pool ball hitting a styrofoam ball,
> > think of one styrofoam ball hitting another one. On the molecular
> > scale, I'm guessing that this would be more akin to what would be
> > happening. -Jim
> 
> Nope. Because you lose the rebound. 

I'm not talking about 100% inertial suppression. I agree that
this would cause a great deal of strangeness, which I don't
really want to examine. For practical purposes, I'm talking about
suppression somewhere between 90% and 99.999%. -Jim
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 21:05:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 20:05:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405074625.009ee8d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20408.200150.0q9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 05:45 AM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>Although my Dante is rusty and my personal sentiments
>>don't agree...
>>
>>"Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."
>
> That's Milton, from "Paradise Lost."
>
> Dante's best line came from The Inferno... the inscription on the gates of 
> Hell.
>
> "I AM THE WAY INTO THE CITY OF WOE
> I AM THE WAY TO A FORSAKEN PEOPLE
> I AM THE WAY INTO ETERNAL SORROW
>
> SACRED JUSTICE MOVED MY ARCHITECT
> I WAS RAISED THERE BY DIVINE OMNIPOTENCE
> PRIMORDIAL LOVE AND ULTIMATE INTELLECT.
>
> ONLY THOSE ELEMENTS TIME CANNOT WEAR
> WERE MADE BEFORE ME, AND BEYOND TIME I STAND.
> ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."
>
> I want that on the door to my gaming room.. :)

WSounds like the routine I pulled one Halloween when the local <adult>
club I belonged to was having a "play party". 

I'd answer the door, smile at the people and use a sweeping hand
gesture to invite them in as I quoted Dracula (from the movie):

"Enter freely, and of your own will..."

Only a few got it. You could tell by the *look* on their faces and the
way they thought it over for a minute before entering. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 21:06:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 20:06:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Tugs, etc
In-Reply-To: <200204041934.DIV01979@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20408.192730.5x5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I haven't seen many designs for a "tug", a useful vessel for 
> attaching to and moving other larger vessels.  Might also be 
> useful for moving large asteroids that come in from the outer 
> system and pose a hazard to navigation (or even to a planet).
>
> Was just reading
> http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-space-
> menace0404apr04.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnationworld%2Dheadlines
>
> and had a mental picture of some bored tug crew getting 
> orders to move out and push this piece of rock into the sun.

Solar impact trajectories require about half again as much delta-V as a
system escape trajactory.


escape velocity = sqrt(2) * orbital velocity.

Since you have to kill better than 90% of the oribital velocity to hit
the star....

It's *far* simpler to just adjust the orbit to not go near anyplace you
care about or to nudge it into a parking orbit around something.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 21:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon Apr  8 20:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 08, 2002 12:47:07 AM
Message-ID: <200204090209.g3929Gw02878@localhost.uia.net>

Okay, I'm going to post an argument which another friend
just sent me. This might scuttle the idea of inertial
suppression. Let me know what you think.

Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
suppression, they move toward each other much faster
than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
I wrong? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 22:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 21:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051636.DKL02665@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20408.201302.1d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> ObTrav:  The easiest holdout to design would be a laser.  You 
> could isolate the powerpack and electronics at some other 
> location under the clothing, run a fiber optic cable to the 
> hand area, contrive a trigger (ring pull?), and have the exit 
> optics somewhere over the back of the hand.  If you made a 
> fist, and curled the fist inward, the ring would pull the 
> trigger and the beam would fire over the back of the hand.

The optical fiber that can handle a weapons grade laser doesn't exist.
And isn't likely to. 

And one bit of damage and the laser energy gets deposited in the
damaged section of fiber. Ouch!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 22:41:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 21:41:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Grav Kitchens
Message-ID: <7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe@aol.com>

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   I'd like to see that design :)
  -Ken-

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;I'd like to see that design :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 22:46:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr  8 21:46:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <F149PnvEZZ91Lhdms4Q000022be@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1df81$7b919c00$0b01a8c0@duck>

>      You are correct, sir.  My apologies for "bum doping" the List.

And I apologize for sounding like a jerk.  I sometimes forget
how stuff will appear when someone else reads it.

>      "While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I
> don't see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the
> trick is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it."
>
>      Yes, seeding the star with enough tungsten and aiming correctly will
> take time.  Perhaps the Darrians use multiple probes to increase their
> chances?

That is a pretty reasonable idea.  I figure they would be jumping in with
a fleet, not just a squadron.  They probably have a couple of "probe" ships
and multiple ships that can deliver the meson trigger.

Plus, I also figure they would be dependent on relative surprise.  If they
face a coordinated defense that is expecting them, they are probably best
advised to try a different system in a week or so.

[ BIG snip ]
>      The "real" reason the Star Trigger wasn't used during all those
> centuries is that weapons of mass destruction aren't, except in very rare
> cases, used to ensure you'll WIN a war.  They're used to ensure that the
> other fellow LOSES the war.  This is a important distinction.  The Star
> Trigger and MAD, on which it is based, is a suicide pact; "You push us too
> far and we'll make sure we all die, you included."

Good point.  I was focused on the SW, not the bigger picture.  The
background does imply that the Star Trigger was created with the Zhodani
in mind, not the SW.  (Though if their relationship ever went sour,
they would probably include the Imperium with the Zhodani.)

>      The Trigger can be used defensively rather easily, by employing it
you
> ensure that the power about to conquer you is left with nothing worth
> conquering.  Using the Trigger offensively, like nukes, is far tougher.
...

I seriously doubt the Darrians would destroy their own worlds to prevent
capture.  The only reason I can think of for them to intentionally use
the Star Trigger in one of their own systems is if they believed they could
nail a major fleet, then come back in to fix the system.

They would, however, without hesitation do a deep penetration to wipe
out an enemy world.  Or several.

>      "I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an incredible
> accomplishment in its own right."
>
>      Keeping the secret that the Trigger demonstration was a fake was the
> really incrediable accomplishment.  The fakers had to fool both the
> observers from the other powers AND their own people utterly and
> completely.
>   Why didn't the secret never leak out?  Mass suicide among the project
> staff over "creating" so horrible a weapon?

I imagine the Darrians would be pragmatic enough to have a mass "suicide"
to keep the secret.  I figure some of those in the "suicide" really did
commit real suicide after making sure the "suicides" took place.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020409053141.28337.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Apone was given a legal order by his commanding
officer. He followed it.  Evidently, SOP was to have
one man carry all the ammo.  Oops. I'm surprised he
didn't know that Drake had the extra BFG thingies.
END QUOTE

No Doug, Vasquez had the extra links for the smart
guns. Tsk tsk tsk. Strap him down boys he needs
another four hours on continous loop. :) The thing I
find strange about the movie is that Apone doesn't
comment on Drake and Vasquez taking point even though
they have   "supposedly" disarmed weapons! The funny
thing is Aliens fans have bigger debates over the
whole "they don't show up on infrared issues" (If the
aliens temp is low enough not to show up on infrared,
they wouldn't be able to move fast)than even the TML
piracy debates. However we have a better handwave, its
those damned cheapskate manufacturers of IR gear ;)

Does anyone have tonnages for a TL-15 PAWS* spinal
mount.


*Penguin Accelerator Weapon System

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:38:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:38:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAIEKKCOAA.redroach@pobox.com>

The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
civilians.  It has little or no military application,
contrary to popular mythos.

I don't know about that. I saw a story on the History channel about a Marine
officer in Korea I think. He made his men take bayonet practice even though
it was outdated.  They got pinned down on patrol and ran out of ammo.  THe
officer led a successful bayonet charge up a hill which wiped out the North
Koreans. That sounds a bit drastic, but useful.

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:41:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:41:10 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin
 gs
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

I know this has probably gone the round on the TML, but just in case. 

Star Wars Name =

First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name

First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
were born. 

Which makes me Mikhu Huper

Damn it, I sound like the old store keeper dude from Sesame Street. 

Apologies if already discussed/known/rejected 'cause it's not canon,
concerns pirates and/or near C rocks etc. 

So Darrien Thistle, born in Ermington, with his mothers maiden name of
Vaddlepettle would be

.... Darth Vader

Nice. 

Mikey

Ob Trav: I think that is clear. 

PS So if Dave Jaques Watson was born in Canberra, and his mother's name was
Smith, he would be Davwa Smcan.

I think I'll make him the evil dude in my next campaign (someone with an
incurable, non fatal but disfiguring disease).

Heh Heh Heh. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>; from Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:02:40PM +1000
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020408234503.A15920@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:02:40PM +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name

Robuh

> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born. 

Menor

Robuh Menor--yer right; sounds vaguely like one of Lucas's fevered
imaginings.  Sehr amusant.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:52:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:52:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204090209.g3929Gw02878@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <200204090209.g3929Gw02878@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
> an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
> move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
> suppression, they move toward each other much faster
> than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
> I wrong?

If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
on each ion, then it is true.

If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
factor of 10.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <20020408.225739.-3503.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 14:02:40 +1000 "Hughes, Michael"
<Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au> writes:
>  
> Star Wars Name =Barst Cotor
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first 
> name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town 
> where you were born. 

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:57:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:57:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <OF1B531251.5105373F-ONCA256B95.001A7F77@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408225507.00ace4c0@mail.verizon.net>

Yes, Dear Hyphen, it's definitely Monday!!!  ;-)

At 12:51 PM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Dear Folks -
>
>Charles replied to Laning thus:
> >>We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including
> >>ironing.  Every service a hotel provides, basically.
> >
> >Even hookers?
>
>Certainly! Just the things you need to grab on to when you perform an EVA
>and the ship decides to lurch suddenly.
>
>...or did I misunderstand your point?
>
>;-)  ;-)  ;-)
>
>(It really _must_ be Monday.)
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 00:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Mon Apr  8 23:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F210WagewMS59IvqvIy000169c3@hotmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn writes:

> > That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
> > because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than
> > the AK-47 or even the M14.
>
>In that case the M14 must be considerably less accurate than the old M1
>Garand its based on. IMER the M1 is at least as accurate as the M16A1,
>assuming similar conditions.

I think the M14 and M1, as weapons platforms, probably get pretty similar 
accuracy.  After all, the M14 is clearly derived from the M1.  The M14 is 
probably more accurate solely because the 308 round is more accurate than 
30-06.  This has something to do with the case being squatter and the shape 
of the case shoulder.  The M14 over time replaced the M1 as the premier 
firearm in military matches.  The M14 is now being replaced in that role by 
the M16, which is shooting better than either of its predecessors.  These 
match rifles have a number of upgrades from standard rifles, so that 
probably does not tell you that much about issue rifles.  The Army's minimum 
standard for accuracy is pretty lousy (4 MOA IIRC), so any of these rifles 
would probably fit that bill.

But as to your basic point that an M1 gets better accuracy than an M16A1, as 
far as issue weapons I would not be too sure.  The M16's action probably 
gives better accuracy.  Also, the M1's wood stock is not so great when you 
do a lot of firing.  The M16 has much less recoil.  On the other hand, the 
M16 is lousy if you are using a sling (because the sling connects to the 
front sight which is connected directly to the barrel) and it has a very 
thin barrel.  I bet the M16A2, with the heavy barrel, does better than the 
Garand though.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 00:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon Apr  8 23:27:08 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
References: <20020407.214938.-3991.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CB28B2B.81ED4C11@attbi.com>


generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> I assumed the 3 meters was deck to deck, allowing the extra space for
> conduits, ducts, overhead lighting,, pipes, electrical stuff, grav plates
> etc.
> 
 
But, that is all engineering space..

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 00:54:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Apr  8 23:54:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408123225.02823ec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408123225.02823ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8d83e5696fb@[198.123.22.190]>

At 1:36 PM -0400 4/8/02, laning wrote:
>Leonard Erickson discusses the antihijacker issue:
>>  > If nobody else does, then
>>>  insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security
>>>  measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time
>>>  and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.
>>
>>You are considering *installation* costs. I'm talking about the costs
>>in time wasted due to "overly stringent" security getting in the way.
>>
>>Oil tankers are expensive too. So are modern freighters. And *safety*
>>gear on them that "gets in the way" is routinely bypassed by crews,
>>never mind "security" gear.
>
>I wholeheartedly agree that personnel will tend to ignore things 
>that are inconvenient.  That's partly why insurers and lenders and 
>regulators at starports will be the ones insisting on enforcement 
>through certifications and inspections.  They won't expect ship 
>crews to take care of it on their own.

While I haven't followed the thread far enough to follow all the 
issues, I think there is a point to be made here.  One can't just 
assume insurance company will force any security measure you can 
think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be unpopular and, 
unless the savings in costs is _significant_, there won't be enough 
of a change in premiums to compensate.

-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 01:09:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 00:09:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F84ekOtJI52I0jYn6hx00003845@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>Anyway, I was told by the people who
>randomly checked the ammo that reached the front-line troops that we were
>typically getting 2100 fps, and it wasn't very unusual to get under 1800
>fps.

Were you getting a lot of failures to feed?  I am just wondering if such 
weak ammo could get the action to cycle reliably.

>How is this data verified or acquired, please?  I'm just curious to get
>another data point, not being accusatory or argumentative.  :->

This is from my rifle with a chronograph, and recent surplus ammo (1999-2001 
production for LC; I think the WCC was older, like 1991).

>Muzzle velocity for government ammo for the A1 was just over 2700 fps.

While there may have been some bad ammo, I do not think the spec for the 55 
grain ammo (M193) has changed since the round was first standardized.  It 
has always required a muzzle velocity of 3250 fps, measured 15' from the 
muzzle (from TM 43-0001-27).  The new 62 grain round (M1855) is supposed to 
go 3025 fps, measured 78 feet from the muzzle.

>I don't think it's a stupid idea to take a varmint rifle and turn it
>into a combat rifle.  It does have its advantages.  But I'd feel more
>sanguine about firing a 130-, 150- or 180-grain bullet from something
>chambered for 7.62 NATO or .303 British than a 55-grain bullet.  Like
>most other things, it's a combination of trade offs because you can't
>have one thing that will give you all the attributes you wish for.

Interestingly, most modern militaries are adopting 5.56 rifles and dropping 
the bigger calibers.  This is even true of weapons like the FAL which could, 
with some work, be made as flexible as far as mounting optics and 
accessories as the M16A4 or M4.

It makes me wonder a little if the Army decided that infantry are not that 
effecive anyway, so it might as well give the boys something that shoots 
lightweight ammo.  On the other hand, maybe they think 5.56 is enough, 
because if someone has a hole in them, even a .22 hole, they will be out of 
action.  Whichever is the case, most other armies seem to be buying into it 
too.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 01:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Tue Apr  9 00:56:08 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
In-Reply-To: <200204082055.DQH04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204091051290.24305-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >Please enlighten me.  PCCS?
> Phoenix Command Combat System, 4th Edition, with all 
> supplements. A product of the now defunct Leading Edge Games.
> The advanced small arms damage tables from the game came from 
> Computerman, a model you may recall.  Now try that by hand 
> instead of by computer.

You might consider using a laptop. Couple of people known to me have held
Vietnam and the Finnish Winter War scenarios here in some rpg cons here in
Finland, and the game went very smoothly, even with players who didn't
know the system. 

Sadly, the Vietnam campaign's www pages are in Finnish, and I can't find
the Winter War pages.

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 01:59:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue Apr  9 00:59:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

A gaming system where everybody contributes rules like
linux? That's a great idea. Wish I could program.
People are still gonna argue rules and realism though.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 02:41:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue Apr  9 01:41:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Grav Kitchens (MT)
In-Reply-To: <7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEPLEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of MurfNMurf@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2002 12:41 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Grav Kitchens


 I'd like to see that design :)
 -Ken-

Your wish...

G-M90 CLASS GRAV FIELD KITCHEN
It is a well known fact that all armies march on their stomachs, and it was
with this in mind that the Terrans introduced the G-M90 grav field kitchen
to provide hot meals for troops in the field.

CraftID: Grav Field Kitchen, TL13, Cr1,075,680
Hull: 5/12, Disp=5, Config=4SL, Armour=4F,
Unloaded=20.587 tons, Loaded=36.495 tons
Power: 1/2, Fusion=12Mw, Duration=30/90
Loco: 1/2, StdGravThrust=54tons, NOE=170kph, Cruise=432kph,
Top=576kph, MaxAccel=0.48G
Commo: Radio=Regional
Sensors: PassiveEMS=VDistant, ActiveEMS=Distant,
Environment, Radiation, Headlights x2,
ActObjScan=Form, ActObjPin=Form, PasObjScan=Form,
Off/Def: Hardpoints=1
Control: Computer=0bis x2, Panel=holographic link x1,
Special=headsUp display x1,
Environ=basic env, basic ls,extend ls, grav plates,
inertial compensators
Accom: Crew=3, (Driver/Cook=1, Cooks=2), Seats=roomy x4
Other: Cargo=14.9 kliters, Fuel=14.4 kliters
1 Air Lock,
1 10kl Field Kitchen Module,
No Fuel Purification Plant,
ObjSize=Small, No Fuel Scoops,
EmLevel=Moderate
Comments: Field Kitchen Module taken from Striker 1.
Construction Time=24 weeks single, 20 weeks multiple


Antony



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 02:58:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 01:58:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020409053141.28337.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

James Ramsay wrotw :

> The thing I find strange about the movie is that
> Apone doesn't comment on Drake and Vasquez taking
> point even though they have "supposedly" disarmed
> weapons!

That's because he _knew_ they'd still have rounds.
But couldn't officially know it, if you know what I mean.

> The funny
> thing is Aliens fans have bigger debates over the
> whole "they don't show up on infrared issues" (If the
> aliens temp is low enough not to show up on infrared,
> they wouldn't be able to move fast)

This has always been simple to explain.
They didn't show up on infrared _in_that_scene_ because they
are the same temperature as the nest materiel they are hiding
in, which is not cold itself. (Look at the steam and the
location)

The person who yelled it was obviously not thinking straight at
the time or they'd have realized this fact.

At other times, no-one needs to look for them on IR because they
are in the open or in situations where IR is not the best means
of detection.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 02:59:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 01:59:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Douglas Berry wrote :
> At 11:08 AM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>
> >One word. F*#&ing officers.
> >Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
> >officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
> >enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
> >interview on the DVD).
>
> OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was
> inexperienced, that's all.

As can be seen the fact he had never done a live drop.

Note that The Company probably pulled strings to _ensure_ that an
inexperienced officer was sent, so he was more likley to accede
to the company man's wishes.

An experienced officer would likely have told the company man to
go fuck himself, and probably have shot the guy on the spot once
his treachery with Ripley and Newt was exposed.

"Treason in the face of the enemy while under martial law" or
some such charge would do, with death as a summary judgement. As
highest ranking military officer on a colony under martial law, I
suspect he would effectively have the powers of God, even if the
Company was pretty powerful back home, it would be setting a
dangerous precedent
for the Colonial Marines to have _not_ backed up their man on the
spot, and the Company could just claim their man had gone rogue.

> All he knew was the
> book, and suddenly the book went out the window
> as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

Actually, the way the marines fell apart when they were first
jumped makes me think the rest of them weren't that experienced
either, just gung ho. And with Apone down in the first few
seconds, probably the only real experience other than Ripley's
was gone.

> Win the shit came down, he covered his people,

However it was Ripley that went back to get the people, Gorman
was still dithering when she took over the APC and drove it into
the hive.

> and went back to get Vasquez, then sacrificed himself
> to slow the enemy down.  In my view, those are the
> kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.

Yeah, I haver to agree with Doug here.

If "Aliens" was an anti-Vietnam film it was the worst one ever
made.
Especially as the US was out of Vietnam well before the movie was
even started.

The person who deserves the biggest rocket up the arse in
"Aliens" (military-wise) is the pilot of the dropship.
Though she was originally told that the LZ had been secured,
she'd never make a Traveller-PC group.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 03:00:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 02:00:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8d83e5696fb@[198.123.22.190]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :
> While I haven't followed the thread far enough to
> follow all the  issues, I think there is a point
> to be made here.  One can't just assume insurance
> company will force any security measure you can
> think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be
> unpopular and, unless the savings in costs is
> _significant_, there  won't be enough
> of a change in premiums to compensate.

The insurance comany won't change it's premiums.

There will just be a clause in the contract, similar to the one
that exists with most vehicle insurance now, that if your vehicle
was not warranted at the time of the accident, or it was being
driven by an unlicensed driver, they won't pay out.

They won't even bother inspecting (or telling you about it) until
_after_ you make the claim. Then they will ask you for your
warrant and masters ticket, and if you can't produce them they
will refuse to pay out.

The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
starport will do it (for important safety and financial reasons,
would you want an unwarranted vehicle approaching an extremely
expensve space station?), there won't be any real choice except
for the captains to take the risk of not doing it and not go to
the better starports

There may even be legal requirenments in many systems.
Unwarranted ships will be told to leave immediately, or stay
stationary until they are warranted.

Given the way the Imperium operates it is unlikely the Imperium
itself will have or enforce such rules, except at the request of
member worlds if a merchant is being a bit recalcitrant, However
the Imperium may set the standards that the member worlds
legislate as they desire.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 03:45:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 02:45:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Greetings dear hearts.

Insurance companies have been in the business of ripping clients off since 
they began, and I doubt they'll change...

However, they do often state preconditions, as well as having 'weasel' 
clauses in the contract. When I took out household insurance a while back 
I had to upgrade the front door lock and they wanted me to get a burglar 
alarm until I told them I kept a Doberman pinscher :-)

So I can see there being a whole raft of terms & conditions if you want 
'3rd party, fire & theft' insurance on your starship: -

Anti-hijack program - they probably insist on you using one provided or 
one that is demonstrably at least as good.

Access control to the vessel of a given standard... they'll ask what you 
have and/or specify minimum requirements.

Qualifications required of operators (master's ticket, etc.)

Restrictions on where you are supposed to go - e.g., "Company must be 
informed prior to visits to any system classified as an Amber Zone. 
Insurance not valid for any travel in systems classified as Red Zone."

Oh dear, if I'm not careful I'll end up writing an insurance contract here 
*grin*

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 03:53:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 02:53:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name things
Message-ID: <200204090952.DRH01545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hughes, Michael" says
<snip section on making up names>

At the end of the movie "She's Having A Baby" several other 
famous types each take a turn at naming babies.  Dan Akroyd 
comes up with three names, all suitable for various campaign 
characters rather than babies.  Of course, even though I had 
watched the movie, I never noticed this until I played in a 
D&D campaign where the three arch enemies had these names - 
and they were led by the evil Nargausius.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 04:48:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue Apr  9 03:48:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name
 thin gs
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020409104751.6e9d13fd.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Hughes, Michael wrote:
> Star Wars Name =
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where
you
> were born. 

Jenry Hakar

The first name is very amusing... look at my e-mail address and see why.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 05:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue Apr  9 04:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B73@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Pitt [mailto:frankie@mundens.gen.nz]
> Sent: 09 April 2002 10:08
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?
> 
> 
> David P. Summers wrote :
> > While I haven't followed the thread far enough to
> > follow all the  issues, I think there is a point
> > to be made here.  One can't just assume insurance
> > company will force any security measure you can
> > think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be
> > unpopular and, unless the savings in costs is
> > _significant_, there  won't be enough
> > of a change in premiums to compensate.
> 
> The insurance comany won't change it's premiums.
> 
> There will just be a clause in the contract, similar to the one
> that exists with most vehicle insurance now, that if your vehicle
> was not warranted at the time of the accident, or it was being
> driven by an unlicensed driver, they won't pay out.
> 
> They won't even bother inspecting (or telling you about it) until
> _after_ you make the claim. Then they will ask you for your
> warrant and masters ticket, and if you can't produce them they
> will refuse to pay out.
> 
> The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
> required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
> may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
> starport will do it (for important safety and financial reasons,
> would you want an unwarranted vehicle approaching an extremely
> expensve space station?), there won't be any real choice except
> for the captains to take the risk of not doing it and not go to
> the better starports

Ok, how long does this Warrant last? Is it similar to the MOT in the UK
for cars? i.e. an annual check of the vehicles condition and compliance
with regulations?

If so, most crews will disable the hindering security aspects (if these
are even covered by the warranting procedure) until such time as they
are approaching annual maintenance and warranting, re-enable them just
befor inspection, then promptly disable them again after certification.

And in any case, a car can be insured against theft even if it doesn't
have steering locks, a car alarm and an immobiliser fitted, so why can't
a starship? Yes, your premium will be a tad higher, but unless theft of
starships is commonplace stringent security won't be a *requirement* of
insurance.

There is a world of difference between a safe ship and a secure one, and
all STC will be concerned with is safety.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 07:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr  9 06:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Roseberrys used HG2 ship lot #2
Message-ID: <3CB2EA6B.7D7D51B5@mail.cswnet.com>

Here are more beauties on the tarmac...
We're slashing prices; everything must go!
Discounts up to 20%
Buy now and get your choice of a Penguin, Tribble, Cabit, or Jackalope
as gift**

**not available in Solomani Rim outlets

Iye-Rethar class auxiliary tender
QT-A1011B2-000000-00007-0  Mcr320.29 std. 1000dt
       one battery          Crew=22       TL=8
Fuel=10 EP=10 Agile=1 Cargo=520 Tankage Fuel=200
Fuel Scoops and Purification plant
Crew=22 [11 officers with 11-4dt staterooms; 11 ratings-with 2dt
rooms]  Lowberths=20 100dt missle bay=1

Aries Eagle class missle boat
MB-A1022B2-700000-00007-0  Mcr940.35 std. 1000dt
one battery                Crew=18  TL=7
Fuel=100 EP=20 Agile=2 Fuel Scoops
Auxiliary 1G manuever drive=1 Auxiliary 1pn power plant=1
Auxiliary Mod 1 fib computer=1 Auxiliary bridge=1
Crew=18 [officers=8, ratings=10.] Marines=31 Frozen watch=42
4dt staterooms=2 [1 each for ship and marine commander]
2dt staterooms=49 [1 passenger possible]
100dt missle bay=1

Ether class Battleship*
BB-A1017B2-800000-00600-0  Mcr1466.54std. 1000dt
one battery                Crew=21  TL=8
Fuel=140 EP=70 Agile=1 Fuel scoops and Purification Plant
Crew=21[11 officers, 10 ratings]
4dt staterooms=11 2dt staterooms=10
Cargo=2 100dt partical accelerator bay=1
*At TL8, this is a Battleship. At TL15, this is a target craft.

Reill class patrol cruiser
PC-A1267E2-130000-00008-0  Mcr1158.284 std. 1100dt
            3         1    Crew=26 Marines=21 TL=11
            3         1
Fuel=297 [jump fuel=220, plant fuel=77] EP=77 Agile=6
1-1dt triple sandcaster turret 1-100dt missle bay
Crew=26[13 officers, 13 ratings] Marines=21
4dt staterooms=13 2dt staterooms=34 Cargo=26

Stacker class repair tug
QT-1204721-000000-20000-0 Mcr94.907 std 100dt
one battery--pulse lasers  Crew=5  TL12
Fuel=7 EP=7 Agile=4 Cargo=3.4dt Fuel scoops and purification plant
1-1dt tripple pulse laser turret
1-10dt machine shop 1-6dt electronics shop
special umbilical docking tube [.025Mcr, 2.6dt]
Crew=5[1 pilot, 1 engineer, 1 gunner/engineer, 2 engineer/maintenance].
5-2dt staterooms.

Plop designs historical series:  The CAM-117 gunship
from Spacecraft 2000-2100AD, by Stewart Cowley, pub 1978, by
Chartwell Books. ISBN 0-89009-211-7

CAM 117 gunship
aka 'the last of the dreadnaughts', 'nuclear kites'
BG-A405AB2-300000-40602-0 Mcr763.09 std. 1900dt
                  1 1 7    Crew=45  TL=8
                  1 1 7
Fuel=190 EP=190 Agility=5 Fuel scoops and Purification Plant
1-100 ton wps bay carrying "One NA 117 Particle Accelerator"
"6 various laser guns": 2-1dt triple beam laser turrets
"various nuclear missile launchers": 7-1dt triple missile racks
Crew=45[11 officers, 34 ratings] 4dt staterooms=45 Cargo=39

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 07:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 06:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
References: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <055501c1dfca$cb684280$1f9e15ac@warrior>

I recall somebody telling me that another problem with these weapons was the
lightness of the projectile ment that wind had a much more drastic effect on
accuracy...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks


> on 4/8/02 2:21 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> >
> > I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).  A
65 gram
> > projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.
>
>
> I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.
>
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 07:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Tue Apr  9 06:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <F2713iCVCd2FvOJyADg0000a126@hotmail.com>

In (Digest) Mail, Matt Bond asked...
<SNIP>
Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to eva while in space to do some 
kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking 
mechanism.  How do I get back in?
</SNIP>

Um, "Open the pod bay doors, Hal"?

Jeff.

"Will the nightmares soon give way to dreaming that she is here with me, 
here in the glow of the night..."

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 08:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 07:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here namethin gs
Message-ID: <200204091452.DRR04317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
>for first name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
>town where you were born. 
>
John Kwon, Chapel Hill

Johon Swcha
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 09:26:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue Apr  9 08:26:07 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here
 namethin gs
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B74@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
> Sent: 09 April 2002 15:53
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn
> how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here namethin gs
> 
> 
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
> >for first name
> > 
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
> >town where you were born. 
> >
> John Kwon, Chapel Hill
> 
> Johon Swcha

I think you will find it is Johkw Schwa...


Matt
(a.k.a. Matbo Pelon)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 10:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr  9 09:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <F73cFZ4RgPRCjOuF1Qp000016f2@hotmail.com>

From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>

     "And I apologize for sounding like a jerk.  I sometimes forget how 
stuff will appear when someone else reads it."

Mr. West,

     Why there's nothing to apologize for, sir!  Your post was perfectly 
alright, I didn't feel it to be anything but correct in both form and tone.
     I was upset with myself over ladling out bad information as if it were 
gospel.  I should have known better and attached an "IIRC" to the statement.

     "That is a pretty reasonable idea.  I figure they would be jumping in 
with a fleet, not just a squadron.  They probably have a couple of "probe" 
ships and multiple ships that can deliver the meson trigger."

     Yes, deployed within a fleet.  That's why the AM 8 talk of the Special 
Branch doesn't sit quite well with me.  It sort of implies that the Darrians 
can zip in with a few vessels and get the job done.
     Leaving probe delivery aside for the moment, look at the meson beam 
requirements.  If you're going to trigger the tungsten plume AND get away, 
you must do it from outside the star's 100D limit.  For a star the size of 
Sol, that's nearly 1 AU.  What sort of beam projector is going to be 
required for that kind of range?  Never mind the accuracy we'll need!
     Spinal mounts don't have that kind of range, at least I assume they 
don't.  Meson gun range is determined by the speed of the particles, you 
whip them up to some insanely relativistic speed in order to delay their 
decay.  When their slowed clocks finally tick down, they go "boom", 
hopefully near the point in space where you want them to do so.
     In the case of the Star Trigger, we'll be attempting to time that decay 
to a point ~1 AU away from our vessels.  The TL 16 Darrians were able to do 
it from Darrian and a GG moon, but the vessels carrying this equipment wil 
be very, very, VERY specialized.  I don't think you'll be able to flip a 
switch and modify a meson gun spinal mount to do the job.

     "I seriously doubt the Darrians would destroy their own worlds to 
prevent capture.  The only reason I can think of for them to intentionally 
use the Star Trigger in one of their own systems is if they believed they 
could nail a major fleet, then come back in to fix the system."

     "They would, however, without hesitation do a deep penetration to wipe 
out an enemy world.  Or several."

     I see the problem with using the Trigger against the Zhos (or 
Imperials) as one of strategic depth.  How many Triggers would take to 
dissuade a very large opponent from continuing his assault on you?  How 
thick a "belt" of Trigger flare systems would it take to stop an offensive?  
Or a war?  Let's take a Darrian-Imperial war for example, would the Darrians 
have to Trigger selected stars as far back as Corridor to keep the Imerium 
at bay?
     Of course, a single Trigger can effect more than one world.  The 
"orignal" deployment did effect worlds as far away from Darrain as Entrope 
and Winston, but at a propogation of <light speed.  It took years for 
results to travel beyond the intial system, not that the warning helped any.
     Deploying many Trigger's at once could present your attacker with an 
unimaginable catastrophe in several systems, and a multi-parsec belt of 
incrediable EM damge that will take decades to develop, but would that cause 
him to cease his assaults or would he be more likely to visit genocide upon 
you and yours?

     "I imagine the Darrians would be pragmatic enough to have a mass 
"suicide" to keep the secret.  I figure some of those in the "suicide" 
really did commit real suicide after making sure the "suicides" took place."

     Omigosh!  Someone who can think nearly as "evilly" as me!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 10:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 09:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B73@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409115948.027e20f0@pop.wizard.net>

Matt Bond:
>Ok, how long does this Warrant last? Is it similar to the MOT in the UK
>for cars? i.e. an annual check of the vehicles condition and compliance
>with regulations?
>
>If so, most crews will disable the hindering security aspects (if these
>are even covered by the warranting procedure) until such time as they
>are approaching annual maintenance and warranting, re-enable them just
>befor inspection, then promptly disable them again after certification.

I think there will be annual inspections at the time of annual maintenance, 
and also inspections at every port that is Class A or B and probably C.

Not every safety feature will be vigorously disabled by crews.  The locks 
between engineering and passenger spaces are quite convenient.  They keep 
passengers from turning up in annoying places and bothering you.  And all 
the crewman has to do is keep their keycard in their pocket and key in four 
numbers on the crypto pad to pass through the lock.  The boat pilot will 
similarly prefer locks that keep wandering crew or passengers from visiting 
"his" boat just out of curiosity and desire for more elbow room.  In less 
normal situations, access to the ship's boats will become universal (for 
abandon ship situations) or more difficult (for hijacking situations).  The 
chief features of the antihijacking security will be to prevent 
unauthorized personnel from gaining access to engineering and other 
crew-only spaces like the bridge, and to prevent unauthorized personnel 
from using control stations.

Electronic log files will be kept on every passage through a hatchway or 
use of a control station.  When visiting better ports, copies of those log 
files will be beamed to whoever keeps such records.  If locks are disabled, 
no event will be logged each time the hatch or control station is used, and 
it will be pretty obvious as soon as someone inspects the logs.

Also, if locks or other measures are disabled, then the insurance 
investigator will be doing her best to elicit confessions or accusations 
from each individual member of the crew.  The crewman who disables a lock, 
and the ship's officer who lets it remain disabled will have to think twice 
about whether they really want personal legal responsibility for the loss 
of the ship that's being investigated.  Their employment contracts have 
explicit language designed to ensure that a crewman or officer who is 
culpable in a loss is subject to heavy, heavy penalties.

The risk just won't be worth taking, especially since the chief benefit of 
disabling locks is not having to punch in four numbers each time the 
individual passes through a hatchway between where they spend most of their 
work day and where they rarely venture anyway.  All it takes is one or two 
honest crewmen to decide to turn them in and they are in big, big trouble.

The level of personal inconvenience to crew and officers shouldn't be 
overrated.  Nor should the level of security most people are willing to put 
up with.  I don't know about other major U.S. cities, but here in the 
Washington area most places of employment make people go past security to 
enter and exit their building, there are roving security guards, all 
packages are subject to inspection, people have to physically log in and 
out of the building outside of normal work hours, and there are frequently 
a few doors within the company's area that are also secure (usually they 
admit only personnel whose magnetically coded employee ID badge is on the 
authorized list in a central computer).  The main everyday features of 
starship security will not be any more annoying than that.  Getting caught 
violating ship's security will be dramatically more undesirable than 
violating office security normally is.


>And in any case, a car can be insured against theft even if it doesn't
>have steering locks, a car alarm and an immobiliser fitted, so why can't
>a starship? Yes, your premium will be a tad higher, but unless theft of
>starships is commonplace stringent security won't be a *requirement* of
>insurance.

You mean unless theft of starships is expensive to the insurance 
company.  Since the insurer tends to be heavily, heavily invested at all 
times in order to maximize profits, having to pay out a mere Cr40,000,000 
will be a major inconvenience and probably affect that quarter's bottom 
line.  Rate schedules will reflect this.

Theft insurance riders for car insurance are usually relatively low to 
begin with, so the difference between $8/month and $14/month may not 
motivate many people to take the extra measures you mention.  Which 
measures are over and above the door locks and steering lock that are 
operated by your car keys.  But rates go up significantly or even 
dramatically when you have a very expensive car, a car model that is very 
popular among thieves, or are within an easy drive of the Mexican border 
(for those of us in the States).  Even if the theft insurance is a very 
small percentage of the ship's value, it will be a very large amount of 
ship's expense each month.  And even more troublesome in Imperial border 
regions near places like the Vargr Extents or systems not belonging to any 
organized empire.

A fundamental principle of property insurance is to reimburse the insured 
100% of the value of their loss.  If the insured has nothing to lose then 
loss claims become incredibly frequent.  If the insured has to carry a 
signicant portion of the loss of a spaceship, you can bet that ships' 
owners will go to some trouble to make sure it never happens to them.

(Thus, a good bounty hunter scenario for recovering stolen ships would be a 
ship's owner who has incurred a loss and already been reimbursed the 90% of 
fair market value that's as much as she'll ever get hires bounty hunters to 
recover the ship.  Payment will be to split all profits from selling the 
recovered ship, after first making up the 10% that wasn't insured and then 
covering all expenses incurred.  If the ship can still be sold for its 
original fair market value, that's a huge profit.)


>There is a world of difference between a safe ship and a secure one, and
>all STC will be concerned with is safety.

Not sure who STC is.  Starport Authorities and local governments will be 
concerned that terrorists or wackos don't hijack a ship and crash it into 
something (the high port, the duke's residence, the financial district of 
the most important city) either intentionally or through ineptness.  That's 
part of safety.  Another part of safety is ensuring the ship is kept in 
good operating order and run in a responsible manner, and security logs 
will be helpful in determining that (are watches being stood?  are 
equipment inspections being kept up with?  do unauthorized personnel get 
access to equipment or controls?).  Lenders and insurers will be concerned 
to prevent ship loss from the investment point of view.  Sector and 
subsector dukes may have additional concerns, which might be felt through 
increased Starport Authority regulations, or through influencing local 
governments to implement other regulations.

I imagine that ship owners may put a clause in crew employment contracts 
that actually penalizes crewmen X months of salary if the ship is 
stolen.  All the crew and officers, not just whoever is found 
culpable.  The ship owners are motivated to prevent theft because of 
financial incentive.  They'll seek to put crew and officers in the same 
position.

(Hmm, one racket would be owner and crew cooperating to make the ship seem 
to be stolen, get their 80% or 90% from the insurance company, then the 
crew goes off as bounty hunters and "recovers" the ship from the "thieves", 
they sell the ship for nearly it's fair market value, and they've just made 
a profit of circa 80% of the value of a ship.  This will be an easy racket 
unless law enforcement and insurers are doing thorough jobs at every step 
of the way.  And even then it will still occasionally happen.)

I'm going to file this email separately for its adventure seeds and routine 
starship operations information.  Thank you for getting me to write it.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 11:19:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 10:19:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F210WagewMS59IvqvIy000169c3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409130304.027d16f0@pop.wizard.net>

Sam D on comparative accuracies between different military rifles:
>But as to your basic point that an M1 gets better accuracy than an M16A1, 
>as far as issue weapons I would not be too sure.  The M16's action 
>probably gives better accuracy.  Also, the M1's wood stock is not so great 
>when you do a lot of firing.  The M16 has much less recoil.  On the other 
>hand, the M16 is lousy if you are using a sling (because the sling 
>connects to the front sight which is connected directly to the barrel) and 
>it has a very thin barrel.  I bet the M16A2, with the heavy barrel, does 
>better than the Garand though.

I'd be very surprised if the M-16 shoots better on the 800-yard or -meter 
line (800 is not part of normal rifle qual, just competitions).  Even the 
M-16A2, with slightly heavier barrel, much better twist to the rifling for 
long-range accuracy, and slightly different load should be poorer than the 
M-14.  Oh, and let's not forget the A2's butt being three-eighths of an 
inch longer than the A1.  Skilled shooters can fire the 14 from the 1,000 
and that's something that's pretty ridiculous with the 16.  Not having 
fired the M-14, I can't speak to things like the furniture or the sight 
arrangement.  I imagine differences between the sight designs can make a 
pretty big difference to performance on the range.

I understand that current M-16s in U.S. service have these (IMHO 
ridiculous) three-round-burst limiters.  Which makes the trigger action a 
little bit different between first, second, and third shots of each 
burst.  The range coaches who I talked to about it said they were advising 
people to hand load each round during slow fire.  In between each round 
they would dry fire the weapon twice.  That way, you were always at the 
same point in the three-round sequence when you actually fired a 
round.  The one time I qualified with the A2 instead of A1, I forgot about 
that little routine.  The A2 still improved my score by about 5 points.  I 
also did a full course of fire not for qualification with the A2 and saw my 
score jump up about the same.  Although, come to think of it, I was less 
than satisfied with my groups from the 500-yard line.  Doh.  Only took 
fifteen years to figure that one out.  :->

ObTrav.  Something the referee in my current PBEM game does do.  Until a 
character has spent time on a range "sighting in" aka "zeroing" a new 
weapon, she should get accuracy penalties when using it, although the 
penalty should be neglible at short range.  A skilled character who takes 
several hours to sight in may be eligible for an accuracy bonus.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 11:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 10:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F84ekOtJI52I0jYn6hx00003845@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409132133.027d0ec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 07:08 AM 4/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>laning writes:
>
>>Anyway, I was told by the people who
>>randomly checked the ammo that reached the front-line troops that we were
>>typically getting 2100 fps, and it wasn't very unusual to get under 1800
>>fps.
>
>Were you getting a lot of failures to feed?  I am just wondering if such 
>weak ammo could get the action to cycle reliably.

Nope.  Well, define 'a lot'.  I've had them occur on the rifle range.  Less 
than say five(?) times.  It was a lot of years ago now to be trying to 
remember this.


>>How is this data verified or acquired, please?  I'm just curious to get
>>another data point, not being accusatory or argumentative.  :->
>
>This is from my rifle with a chronograph, and recent surplus ammo 
>(1999-2001 production for LC; I think the WCC was older, like 1991).
>
>>Muzzle velocity for government ammo for the A1 was just over 2700 fps.
>
>While there may have been some bad ammo, I do not think the spec for the 
>55 grain ammo (M193) has changed since the round was first 
>standardized.  It has always required a muzzle velocity of 3250 fps, 
>measured 15' from the muzzle (from TM 43-0001-27).  The new 62 grain round 
>(M1855) is supposed to go 3025 fps, measured 78 feet from the muzzle.

That 2700 figure was what our manuals from boot camp taught us and was a 
very frequent question during inspections in boot camp and afterwards.  I 
want to 2,710 but I still can't remember the precise figure.  And yeah, my 
1980 edition of 'Cartridges of the World' thinks M193 ammo had a 3,250 
muzzle velocity also.  Interesting that the Marine Corps _officially_ 
taught us it was a much lower number.  One explanation is that Marine Corps 
was continuing to be forced to accept ammo lots that it considered 
substandard at 2,710 while the contractor continued to insist he was 
delivering 3,250 and the dispute was dragging on during my tenure in the Corps.

I think when the manufacturer sells 'surplus' ammo they know precisely 
whether a shipment will be delivered to commercial sellers or to the 
government.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.


>Interestingly, most modern militaries are adopting 5.56 rifles and 
>dropping the bigger calibers.  This is even true of weapons like the FAL 
>which could, with some work, be made as flexible as far as mounting optics 
>and accessories as the M16A4 or M4.
>
>It makes me wonder a little if the Army decided that infantry are not that 
>effecive anyway, so it might as well give the boys something that shoots 
>lightweight ammo.  On the other hand, maybe they think 5.56 is enough, 
>because if someone has a hole in them, even a .22 hole, they will be out 
>of action.  Whichever is the case, most other armies seem to be buying 
>into it too.

Yes, both of your suggestions make a lot of sense in light of what the 
popular wisdom is at the government think tanks that largely influence 
these decisions.  "Aimed fire is no more effective than unaimed fire in 
battlefield situations."  and "An army loses more than three soldiers from 
action each time someone is wounded, in order to medevac and care for that 
wounded soldier."

In fact, with that last popular nugget of wisdom, one can easily imagine 
the paper pushers deciding it's _better_ to have a rifle that results in 
more wounds than kills, and stopping power isn't even part of the 
decision.  It's a Dilbert world.

My ObTrav here is some planetary militaries opting for patently 
underpowered weapons on the theory that they should always be trying to 
inflict a wound and never a kill.  Take it near a ridiculous 
extreme.  Perhaps the player characters are in a mercenary unit that goes 
up against them, and after getting some battle experience against them, can 
only muse wonderingly and pity the poor bastards they're fighting 
against.  Or the player characters are in a city that is under attack by 
irregular forces much like the Boers from 1902 (people grew up with 
shooting and take weapon deadliness very seriously).  They feel secure 
enough, since the planetary government forces defending the city vastly 
outnumber the irregular and have much more sophisticated equipment 
besides.  Things grow tense as the irregulars' siege of the city gets 
tighter and tighter and the fighting starts coming in earshot of their 
hotel.  No vehicles, aircraft, or spacecraft are entering or leaving the 
city.  Rumors of war crimes being committed by ever more angry irregulars 
are growing.  (They're angry because their friends and family often they 
themselves are getting wounded.  They're _not_ spending three guys to take 
care of one wounded guy, because they're irregulars and don't have that 
kind of luxury.)

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 11:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Apr  9 10:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <200204091244.AA102170826@caddocourt.com>

>     Why there's nothing to apologize for, sir!  Your post was perfectly 
>alright, I didn't feel it to be anything but correct in both form and tone.

Oh good!  Thank you for clearing that up.

[ big snip ]
>     "They would, however, without hesitation do a deep penetration to wipe 
>out an enemy world.  Or several."
>
>     I see the problem with using the Trigger against the Zhos (or 
>Imperials) as one of strategic depth.  How many Triggers would take to 
>dissuade a very large opponent from continuing his assault on you?
> ... , but would that cause 
>him to cease his assaults or would he be more likely to visit genocide upon 
>you and yours?

I don't think the Darrians would be using the Star Trigger against the
Zhodani or the Imperium unless they already knew they were dead.  (Or
at least believed they were.)  As you mentioned before, there is nothing
it can do in its operation that will let the Darrians win such a war.

The whole point with the Zhodani (and, by extension, the Imperium) is
that its presence will prevent the war from ever starting in the first
place.  If you know that conquering the Darrians will be that expensive
(and the ramifications will continue to happen for years to come), you
have to really want the Darrians dead.  In other words, it escalates
the price of victory the Zhodani or Imperium would have to pay to
conquer the Darrians.  It can never win the war once it has started.

Of course, the other "fun" use of the Star Trigger is to intimidate
small (single system) governments like Nonym and (before they were an
Imperial client state) Garoo.

[ this is out of context, but ...]
>...  It took years for 
>results to travel beyond the intial system, not that the warning helped any.

The problem for the Darrians with the Maghiz was that there was only a
single shipyard and a single industrial base for the entire Confederation:
Darrian.  Once it was destroyed, the colonies had no way to get new ships
or technological goods.  They were all stuck.

The Imperial or Zhodani worlds would not be so hard hit since there would
always be other worlds to get stuff from.  They would be able to recover
in a much more quickly.

>     "I imagine the Darrians would be pragmatic enough to have a mass 
>"suicide" to keep the secret.  I figure some of those in the "suicide" 
>really did commit real suicide after making sure the "suicides" took place."
>
>     Omigosh!  Someone who can think nearly as "evilly" as me!

While I do probably fit that description, in this case I would call this
"evil", so much as purely pragmatic.

Another way to look at it is that the scientists literal bet their lives 
that they could create the Star Trigger.  They lost the bet and paid the
price, but at least had a measure of success.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 12:58 AM 4/9/02 -0700, you wrote:

>A gaming system where everybody contributes rules like
>linux? That's a great idea. Wish I could program.
>People are still gonna argue rules and realism though.

The latest edition of D&D made some hype about going to this back when it 
was announced and the public buzz about Linux was at its peak.  I don't 
really follow D&D and don't know where that stands now.

That suggestion does not have to have anything to do with programming the 
rules for computers.  Just writing game rules.  There needs to be a 
centralized repository for distributing the rules.  Web site, news group, 
mailing list.  The contributors to that forum need to early on establish 
some protocols that, if followed, keep contributors writing rule sections 
that are compatibility with the other rule sections.

For example, weapon design rules have to produce results within parameters 
that can be used any combat rules which in turn have to produce results 
that can be used with any rules describing character attributes, in terms 
of taking wounds and in terms of determining hits and damage.

There are some problems that make such a project very different from 
open-source programming of a Unix variant.

With programming, the contributions have to at least compile, and not crash 
when launched.  This filters out a lot underqualified contributors right 
there.  No such built-in logic checks preventing junk contributions of game 
rules.

There are a _lot_ more people who think they can design a game than there 
are people who think they can write a computer program.  Professional game 
designers are aware of this phenomenon and are also aware that a huge 
number of self proclaimed game designers don't have the least concept of 
some important fundamentals.

These first two things suggest that a huge percentage of junk 
contributions.  Much more so than with Linux.

Having a much larger population of people who think they can write rules 
could lead to vast numbers of rule contributions.  The sheer number can be 
a problem.  OTOH, if only a small percentage of contributions are good then 
it's a good thing there are so many contributions.  :->

There is less motivation for people to write rule contributions.  A 
successful Linux contribution is more likely to be personally gratifying, 
and is an extremely helpful thing to have on your resume and a useful 
professional growth experience in a well-paid profession.  A game rules 
contribution isn't very helpful to most persons' careers, and is arguably 
less gratifying in terms of fame or the satisfaction of being published.

The market for (war and roleplaying) games is orders of magnitude smaller 
than the market for computer software.

Establishing even the basic intent of the protocols is a puzzling 
task.  Linux had the advantage of imitating an established and mature 
operating system at its start.  Is the open source roleplaying game going 
to be highly cinematic and intended to keep player characters alive but 
slaughter....never mind.  I guess if the protocol cleverly defines how 
modules plug into each other, then you can let players mix and match 
modules themselves.

Bug reporting of Linux contributions can be automated and reports sent via 
the Internet easily.  Bug reporting of game designs is much more problematical.

That's what comes to mind.

It's got me to thinking about how to organize it though.  If I had more 
energy for the project, I'd go advertise in various Internet locations, 
magazines, game shops, and game conventions, set up the Web site and 
mailing list, etc.  Oh yeah, and if I had the money for those thing.  If 
enough people start participating, it might be a worthwhile experiment.

Not sure if I remember the original Linus Thorvald's post accurately enough 
to make this paraphrase work.  "Remember the good old days when real men 
wrote their own game rules?..."

One last thing.  I have some hesitation about whether it's a good idea to 
even trying to make open source game design work.  If it works, it isn't 
like stealing market share from Bill Gates.  It's making it impossible for 
guys like Loren Wiseman to earn a living in the industry.  We won't have 
any full time RPG designers anymore.  Which probably means a lot of 
important and good contributions to RPGs will never take place.  As a 
concept, open source game design seems like a desirable thing for gaming if 
it can be made to work.  The devil is in the details.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here
 name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <20020408234503.A15920@4dv.net>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
 <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409141814.027d2810@pop.wizard.net>

> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> > were born.

Lanpo Lannap.  I do not want to be called Lanpo.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Penguin Sighting
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409142253.027d5410@pop3.isicns.com>

'Shackleton' is being run in two parts on A&E repeatedly from this past 
weekend through April 19th.  Originally from Channel 4 in the U.K.

Numerous penguin sightings and references!

Including the classic when the photographer and Shackleton (played by 
Brannagh), are sorting through all their photographic negatives, made of glass.

Shackleton, in tired complaint:  "_Not_ another penguin."  Smash.

It even opens with a genuine, 100% pure, certified penguin joke, albeit in 
German and with no subtitles.  Most of us will have to pay close attention 
to eke out enough meaning to understand it.

Actual ObTravs should be abundantly obvious while viewing the show.  Chock 
full of adventure seeds and NPCs.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:17:35PM -0400
References: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:17:35PM -0400, laning wrote:
>
> I have some hesitation about whether it's a good idea to even trying
> to make open source game design work.  If it works, it isn't like
> stealing market share from Bill Gates.  It's making it impossible
> for guys like Loren Wiseman to earn a living in the industry.  We
> won't have any full time RPG designers anymore.  Which probably
> means a lot of important and good contributions to RPGs will never
> take place.

Open source and free software aren't about winning market share from
Bill Gates--they're about doing the right thing (or rather, doing a
more right thing).  I don't think that anyone will argue that it's
more moral to give away than the sell; in fact, I can think of few
schools of thought other than Objectivism which would so argue.  It's
not wrong to charge for one's labour (how else could one eat?)--but it
is better to give it away.

No-one should ever be forced to give away his labour--that would be
slavery.  But OTOH it must be recognised that if _I_ give mine away,
then _you_ will have a hard time selling yours.  But that is, to be
quite honest, your problem.


And a _lot_ of important and free contributions to RPGs took place
back in the old net days--ever read the Net.Books
<http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/byzantium/55/index2.htm#bluetroll>?
The vast majority were written by players for players.

In the software world, we've moved from proprietary everything, to
open standards for proprietary components on top of proprietary
platforms (POSIX when it first came about) to open standards for open
components on top of proprietary platforms (the GNU tools on top of
POSIX) to open standards for open components on top of open platforms
(Linux and *BSD).


Games are already fairly open.  Despite certain companies' wishful
thinking, a game is already an open standard, in that anyone can
create materials compatible with it.  That's a lot of what we're doing
here on the TML, isn't it?  And yet no-one claims that we are stealing
from Messrs. Miller or Wiseman, or that they are unable to make a
living.

Steffan O'Sullivan seems to have done well with FUDGE, a system which
is truly free (in the sense of freedom), yet which is also sold.
There's a lot of value added to a book vs. a computer file--much more
than that added to software by boxing it up vs. putting it online.

Even SJ Games have a free summary of the most basic of GURPS rules
available.  I imagine that sales of GURPS Basic Set are rather dwarfed
by sales of the myriads of supplements they put out.  And how many of
us would really stop buying RPGs just because they might be available
online?

Heck, I just spent more than $200 for HackMaster's Player's Guide,
DM's Guide and Vols. 1-VII of the Hacklopaedia, despite the fact that
I'll never play it in my life.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
While I was at University in Lancaster, the International Committee of
the Red Cross was having a campaign to stop other organisations using
the name 'red cross' and served a 'cease and desist' notice on the Red
Cross Inn in Lancaster.  The innkeeper turned round and pointed out that
the Red Cross Inn (founded, like most other pubs of the same name, by a
returning crusader) had been trading under that name for more than seven
hundred and fifty years, and politely asked how long they'd been using
it.  The ICRC retired hurt.                             --Simon Brooke

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:53:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:53:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3623@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Just read MJ Dougherty's short story at:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/Fiction/Dougherty/secrets.html

I can just SEE this as a short film :)  Could be done with a very moderate
budget, especially if Harry got changed to a human character instead of
Vargr.  Granted, that's half the fun of the piece, but it'd be a lot easier
& cheaper to do if he were human.

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Geoff @ MotionBlur)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3623@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOIEELCHAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>

Animate it =)

Geoff McDonald
President
MotionBlur Animation Ltd.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of DeGraff, Jesse
> Sent: April 9, 2002 11:52 AM
> To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
> Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
>
>
> Just read MJ Dougherty's short story at:
> http://www.travellerrpg.com/Fiction/Dougherty/secrets.html
>
> I can just SEE this as a short film :)  Could be done with a very moderate
> budget, especially if Harry got changed to a human character instead of
> Vargr.  Granted, that's half the fun of the piece, but it'd be a
> lot easier
> & cheaper to do if he were human.
>
> Jesse
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3624@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

You're the professional animator, I just do stills ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff @ MotionBlur [mailto:mcdonald@motionblur.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:55 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Oh dear....


Animate it =)

Geoff McDonald
President
MotionBlur Animation Ltd.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 09, 2002 03:51:13 PM
Message-ID: <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
> > an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
> > move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
> > suppression, they move toward each other much faster
> > than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
> > I wrong?
> 
> If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
> on each ion, then it is true.
> 
> If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
> to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
> factor of 10.

Under the premise of the inertial suppression idea, inertia
is defined as the electromagnetic drag caused by mass accellerating
through the zero point field (essentially due to subatomic interactions
with virtual photons). So, if this were the case, it might hold true
that the EM force would be reduced by inertial suppression, at least if
one assumes that EM forces are transferred via virtual photons, sort of
like the way waves on the ocean are transferred through the water
molecules making up the waves (you physicists on the list can probably
laugh at this statement... I'm really showing my ignorance here). Anyway,
off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to make this
work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the square-root of the
inertial suppression factor. If we make that handwave, which is
certainly a god-being-nice type to rule to make, then I'd imagine
that we've got gravity & EM both covered. However, if anyone can
provide a counterexample, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Also, there's still the weak and strong forces to think about. Since
weak is purportedly linked to EM, one would expect some sort of similar
square-root drop off. As for the strong force, I have no idea. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F107T456UnHAaaz7EjQ000157ce@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>I'd be very surprised if the M-16 shoots better on the 800-yard or -meter
>line (800 is not part of normal rifle qual, just competitions).>Even the
>M-16A2, with slightly heavier barrel, much better twist to the rifling for
>long-range accuracy, and slightly different load should be poorer than the
>M-14.

As the distance gets longer, wind has its effect on the little 5.56 much 
more than the 7.62.  But the usual distances in match competitions is 200, 
300 and 600 yards, at which distances the M16 is supreme.  It is possible to 
get superior accuracy at even longer ranges with the M16, but they have to 
use very heavy bullets (80 grains+) that will not fit in the M16 mags.  As 
you talked about in your post, the M16 becomes a single shot.  With this 
proviso, the M16 is beating the M14 at all ranges now in competitions.  I 
think they are even getting good results at 1,000 yards, but these are 
obviously not issue weapons.

Anyway, when we are talking 1,000 yards we are really talking about ranges 
for snipers, not infantry.

>Skilled shooters can fire the 14 from the 1,000
>and that's something that's pretty ridiculous with the 16.

Certainly ridiculous for me.  An M14 would have to be pretty tweaked to 
consistantly make shots like that, and you would need optics.  It is a very 
poor platform for optics and the M14 needs constant maintanence to keep 
excellent accuracy.  The M16, on the other hand, once accurized needs little 
upkeep and it is a great platform for optics.  But you are certainly right 
that it is not going to bowling them over at 1,000 yards.

>I understand that current M-16s in U.S. service have these (IMHO
>ridiculous) three-round-burst limiters.  Which makes the trigger action a
>little bit different between first, second, and third shots of each
>burst.

The trigger pull is the same for every shot in semi-auto.  These "match" 
rifles I am talking about will usually have a special double stage trigger 
installed.  Otherwise, the standard M16 trigger, like most military 
triggers, is really too heavy for serious accuracy.

I always thought it was interesting in Striker that they have a 7mm assault 
rifle (which seems to be a FAL/G3/M14 type weapon), a 5mm assault rifle 
(M16), and then skip entirely the most popular assault rifle of all time 
(AK-47).  What are all of the guerillas supposed to be armed with?

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl quotes me and replies:
>On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:17:35PM -0400, laning wrote:
> >
> > I have some hesitation about whether it's a good idea to even trying
> > to make open source game design work.  If it works, it isn't like
> > stealing market share from Bill Gates.  It's making it impossible
> > for guys like Loren Wiseman to earn a living in the industry.  We
> > won't have any full time RPG designers anymore.  Which probably
> > means a lot of important and good contributions to RPGs will never
> > take place.
>
>Open source and free software aren't about winning market share from
>Bill Gates--they're about doing the right thing (or rather, doing a
>more right thing).  I don't think that anyone will argue that it's
>more moral to give away than the sell; in fact, I can think of few
>schools of thought other than Objectivism which would so argue.  It's
>not wrong to charge for one's labour (how else could one eat?)--but it
>is better to give it away.
>
>No-one should ever be forced to give away his labour--that would be
>slavery.  But OTOH it must be recognised that if _I_ give mine away,
>then _you_ will have a hard time selling yours.  But that is, to be
>quite honest, your problem.

I had no wish to get into philosophical theory.  I do wish to point out who 
is affected by an effort that results in taking market share from 
professional game designers.  Regardless of their original intent.  It will 
be the folks like Loren who live on a shoestring instead of folks like Bill 
Gates who already has more money than he has a purpose for.  I believe that 
a lot of people new to the situation rather expect that gaming companies 
are big faceless corporations with deep pockets, when really they are just 
the opposite.

I do not adopt that attitude of "Tough luck, Mac" if I do something for my 
own amusement (gaming as a hobby) that puts good and decent people of 
personal acquaintance (Loren) out on the street.  I don't know if your "But 
that is...your problem" remark was intended to sound quite as callous as it 
came across to me in print, but that's just me, and as you say that's my 
problem.  I'm not losing any sleep over it.  My issue is this.  If people 
are going to make a choice with profound consequences, then they should be 
aware of what those consequences are.  A successful effort to publish 
open-source game designs will kill an industry that is fairly marginal by 
replacing it with people who do it for a hobby.  I'd wager a lot of 
would-be participants in open-source gaming are not aware of that 
consequence prior to someone pointing it out.



>And a _lot_ of important and free contributions to RPGs took place
>back in the old net days--ever read the Net.Books
><http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/byzantium/55/index2.htm#bluetroll>?
>The vast majority were written by players for players.

I was not aware of that, and will look at the link later today, thanks.



>Games are already fairly open.  Despite certain companies' wishful
>thinking, a game is already an open standard, in that anyone can
>create materials compatible with it.  That's a lot of what we're doing
>here on the TML, isn't it?  And yet no-one claims that we are stealing
>from Messrs. Miller or Wiseman, or that they are unable to make a
>living.

Very good point.  To be fair, there are times we've had pretty heated IP 
debates about whether something is being stolen from them.  And the harm it 
does to their ability to make a living usually gets mentioned in those 
debates.  And the people who were breaking the law haven't always ceased 
nor desisted.


>Steffan O'Sullivan seems to have done well with FUDGE, a system which
>is truly free (in the sense of freedom), yet which is also sold.
>There's a lot of value added to a book vs. a computer file--much more
>than that added to software by boxing it up vs. putting it online.

Good point about added value.  I have no idea whether Steffan O'Sullivan is 
making a living at it or not.  I don't hear him complaining, but that 
doesn't mean a thing, since where I would go to notice such a complaint.

>Even SJ Games have a free summary of the most basic of GURPS rules
>available.  I imagine that sales of GURPS Basic Set are rather dwarfed
>by sales of the myriads of supplements they put out.  And how many of
>us would really stop buying RPGs just because they might be available
>online?
They didn't give it away until after they'd established the market for 
GURPS and had said myriads of supplements.

I can envision a real world way of developing RPG open source designs that 
will compete directly with _all_ RPG publications, and would evolve over 
time to be superior to them in most instances.  Online availability and 
printing and binding in your home is still a novelty and is far from 
reaching full 'market penetration'.  How many of us would actually pay for 
a $20 rule book that we can print and bind for less than a tenth of 
that?  A few yes, but the majority would take the cheaper option.

....leading to electronic publishing discussions but I don't know if that's 
relevant to this discussion or not.


>Heck, I just spent more than $200 for HackMaster's Player's Guide,
>DM's Guide and Vols. 1-VII of the Hacklopaedia, despite the fact that
>I'll never play it in my life.
You display a trait common in our hobby, but very few of us spend like 
that.  I suspect you have far more disposable income than most gamers.  And 
I don't suppose those volumes were available online.

In summary, you raise excellent points that do make a difference.  But if 
your intent is prove open-source RPG design is a stillborn idea, I don't 
think you've chosen compelling arguments.  If your intent was to explode my 
own points as invalid, you haven't convinced me that they are.

I think the real difficulties of moving the idea forward is lack of 
concentrated energy among people who have the right skills.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:48:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:48:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F51yTB0lrvpLA0sOVtS000096e4@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>I think when the manufacturer sells 'surplus' ammo they know precisely
>whether a shipment will be delivered to commercial sellers or to the
>government.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The WCC I have, which is produced by Olin, was for a foreign government 
contract that never made it out of the country for some reason.  It came 
linked, with tracers.  :)

Lake City is a government owned facility that is operated by a contractor 
(currently Federal).  I don't think they are supposed to be making private 
sales of the stuff.  From what I hear, the diversion to commercial suppliers 
is being stopped by the government.  Much of it is in Federal packaging, but 
some of the older stuff is packaged in 30 round boxes with stripper clips, 
ready to be issued to the troops.

Really, you guys are shocking me with all of this talk of low velocity 5.56 
ammo.  I have never heard anybody mention this before, and I have been 
around and been interested in the weapon for a while now.  If you have or 
know of any sources for this info, I would sure like to see it.  Off list if 
you prefer.  Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409115948.027e20f0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B73@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409151639.02480008@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:01 PM 4/9/2002, laning wrote:
>[A ship owner who has] incurred a loss and been reimbursed the 90% of fair 
>market value [...] hires bounty hunters to recover the ship.  Payment will 
>be to split all profits from selling the recovered ship, after first 
>making up the 10% that wasn't insured and then covering all expenses incurred.

No; the insurance company will guard against scams of this nature by 
insisting that, if the ship is recovered after the claim is paid, it 
belongs to the insurance company and not the insured.  In this case, the 
insurance company will generally sell the ship, and if (after deducting the 
expenses related to recovering and selling it) the insurance company 
recovers more than the 90% of the fair market value that they paid for the 
claim, the extra monies are split in some way (that will vary from policy 
to policy) between the insurance company, the people who recovered the 
ship, and the original owners.

Bounty hunters can work for or with insurance companies, or for the 
owner.  If the ship can be recovered quickly, inexpensively, and with 
little damage, the  owner can recover the ship without having to make a 
claim - the only cost is the cost of the recovery fee (maybe into the 
hundreds of thousands of credits).  But, in general, the ship will not be 
so easily recovered (or once recovered, will not be in the condition it was 
when it was stolen).

So, ship owners will generally want to file a claim, and let the insurance 
company worry about recovering the ship.  Recovering and selling the ship - 
even at a fraction of it's full value represents a huge reduction in the 
insurance company's loss.  Thus, they will tend to employ bounty hunters 
and skip tracers to recover ships, and some type of fee-splitting 
arrangement that provides an incentive for the bounty hunters to recover 
the ship with as much of it's original value as possible.  This would 
probably involve a salary, retainer, or base fee for any recovery (again, 
maybe ranging into the hundreds of thousands of credits), plus a bonus if 
the ship's resale value exceeds the company's cost for the claim and recovery.

This does leave open one possible scam - the owner or crew could "steal" 
their own ship, abandon it, file an insurance claim and take their 
90%.  Once the ship is recovered, if they can re-purchase it at auction for 
less than 90% of original market value, the original owners will now own 
the ship free and clear, plus some amount of profit.  On the other hand, 
the ship may now be in need of expensive re-certification and other work to 
make it space worthy.  Not to mention the cost of increased insurance 
premiums ... and the amount of scrutiny that they will get from insurance 
and law enforcement.

>One racket would be owner and crew cooperating to make the ship seem to be 
>stolen, get their 80% or 90% from the insurance company, then the crew 
>goes off as bounty hunters and "recovers" the ship from the "thieves", 
>they sell the ship for nearly it's fair market value, and they've just 
>made a profit of circa 80% of the value of a ship.

Nope - first off, the insurance company will investigate the heck out of 
this scenario.  In the second case, the proceeds from the sale of the ship 
will go to the insurance company, and only a tiny fraction will be paid to 
the "bounty hunters".  In general, the amount they'd see from this scam 
(90% insurance payment plus 0%-2% recovery bonus) will be less than if 
they'd sold the ship outright at fair market value.

In theory, this scenario can be used to scam the bank of a ship which is 
subject to a mortgage.  The ship is "stolen" by it's own crew, the 
insurance pays the bank note off (leaving the crew ship-less and 
mortgage-less).  It is then "recovered" by the crew, who get paid a 
recovery fee or bonus by the insurance company.  This isn't nearly enough 
for a new ship (or even a down payment on one), but could still be a nice 
amount of money.  Even in this case, I'm sure the bank and insurance 
company would investigate, and may even "blackball" the captain and crew, 
so that they cannot obtain another bank mortgage on a ship easily.  It will 
probably still happen - but not often.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092000.DSB05659@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>
>As the distance gets longer, wind has its effect on the 
>little 5.56 much more than the 7.62.  But the usual 
>distances in match competitions is 200, 300 and 600 yards, 
>at which distances the M16 is supreme.  It is possible to 
>get superior accuracy at even longer ranges with the M16, 
>but they have to use very heavy bullets (80 grains+) that 
>will not fit in the M16 mags.  As you talked about in your 
>post, the M16 becomes a single shot.  With this 
>proviso, the M16 is beating the M14 at all ranges now in 
>competitions.  I think they are even getting good results at 
>1,000 yards, but these are obviously not issue weapons.
>

I've shot for fun at ranges where state police were 
practicing with their mouse guns.  I was using a Remington 
700 Police DM in .308, with a new barrel.  Past 300 yards, 
there was an incremental advantage, which really opened up at 
about 500 yards (hey, there really IS a morning glory effect).

They were not smirking afterwards.  They wanted my weapon.

>Anyway, when we are talking 1,000 yards we are really 
>talking about ranges for snipers, not infantry.
>

OK.  But how do we identify these men if the basic weapon 
can't do half the sniper's range?

>Certainly ridiculous for me.  An M14 would have to be pretty 
>tweaked to consistantly make shots like that, and you would 
>need optics.  It is a very poor platform for optics and the 
>M14 needs constant maintanence to keep excellent accuracy.  

I never had a maintenance problem with the M-21, nor were the 
optics a problem.  I would recommend not taking off the 
sights (some mounts I saw later were silver soldered to 
prevent removal).  They are not "tweaked" so much as 
specifically chosen/selected and then "gone over" to be 
properly re-bedded (glass bedding certain areas).  A lot of 
factory rifles today (bolt-actions) come with aluminum 
bedding blocks as standard, and have higher quality barrels 
than virtually any military rifle.  So many of them are 
accurate enough "out of the box" to give any semi-auto (and 
this includes a tricked out M-16) a run for its money.

Even though Remington has had its quality control problems 
over the years, I could take virtually any Sendero model out 
of the box and out range anyone with a tricked out M-16.  
Mind you, this means that I would have to set up the shooting 
situation (ambush), but if I had the ability to start the 
fight at a distance and place of my choosing, I'm probably 
going to put several people down before any of the rounds 
come anywhere near me.  At that point, they'll be shooting at 
a target not much larger than a grapefruit, with a round that 
won't penetrate a sandbag at that range (the long bodied 
match rounds are not penetrators).

I am quite sure that if I had a suppressor (not completely 
quiet, but masking the point of origin of the shooting), and 
was using the Mark V M3 10x, and had the strap-on KN-250 
night vision scope, I would probably put down as many people 
as I had rounds in the magazine if the engagement was at 
night.  And that would be at a distance of over 600 yards.  
I'm not sure that the targets (coming out of an area known 
and already spotted) would have much chance of spotting me 
with naked eye, or anything short of thermals).  Just looking 
for me would be suicidal.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:39:44PM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409141022.A18068@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:39:44PM -0400, laning wrote:
>
> >No-one should ever be forced to give away his labour--that would be
> >slavery.  But OTOH it must be recognised that if _I_ give mine away,
> >then _you_ will have a hard time selling yours.  But that is, to be
> >quite honest, your problem.
> 
> I believe that a lot of people new to the situation rather expect
> that gaming companies are big faceless corporations with deep
> pockets, when really they are just the opposite.

No argument there--I've heard the stories.  Heck, a quick look through
con photos in any gaming mag proves the point:-)

But that doesn't matter.  Free software is not about sticking it to
Bill Gates; it's about free software.  Gaming is not about sticking to
to gaming companies (they're generally good people); it's about
gaming.

> I don't know if your "But that is...your problem" remark was
> intended to sound quite as callous as it came across to me in print,
> but that's just me, and as you say that's my problem.

I didn't mean it to sound callous, more as a statement of fact.  What
I meant is that if I produce work (which is my right) and I free it
(which is my right), then someone who produces work (which is his
right) and keeps it proprietary (which is also his right) will have to
do a _much_ better job than I do in order to compete.

I don't feel bad about that, any more than I would if I produced work
and simply sold it for less than the other guy.  I actually feel
_less_ bad, because I have given my work to the world, to do with as
it pleases.

Should Steve Jackson feel bad that he has made it very difficult for
another universal RPG system to be produced?  Of course not.  Should
Marc Miller feel bad that he has upped the ante for science fiction
roleplaying?  Certainly not!  Should Loren Wiseman feel bad that he
has set an incredible precedent for GURPS Traveller supplements?
Perish the thought.  Each has done a wonderful job, and each has made
it harder for another to succeed (a new universal RPG must be better
than GURPs; a new sci-fi RPG must have a better setting the the Third
Imperium; a new series of Traveller supplements must be better than
the GURPS line; these are all tall orders).

Should any of the above feel bad that their own brilliant success has
made it more difficult for me to follow in their footsteps?  No.
Should I be upset?  No.

So what's the difference between them and me?  Don't say that my own
IP is not as precious to me as to them.  I love travlib dearly.  It's
the best work I've ever produced.

If they should not feel bad about out-competing me, why should I feel
bad about out-competing them?  If I should not feel bad that they
out-competed me, why should they feel bad if I out-compete them?

Not that I'd directly compete with any of the above.  I write
software, not supplements.  And yes, my hope is for my GPLed
Traveller-compatible software to enable a lot of other programmers to
write more Traveller-compatible software.  And it doesn't bother me
that this will make it more difficult for others to profit from
proprietary Traveller-compatible software.  Why should it, any more
than it bothers Stephen King that he's made it more difficult for
other to profit from horror novels?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Distracting factors leading to traffic accidents:
  - object or person outside the car 30%
  - adjusting the radio or CD player 11%
  - dealing with another occupant in the car 11%
  - cellular phones 1.5%
     --Highway Safety Research Center at the University of North Carolina

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:13:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:13:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
Message-ID: <F67WW92A0HoXONfjxJJ00006b11@hotmail.com>

Thomas Vickers wrote:

>I don't know about that. I saw a story on the History channel about a 
>Marine
>officer in Korea I think. He made his men take bayonet practice even though
>it was outdated.  They got pinned down on patrol and ran out of ammo.  THe
>officer led a successful bayonet charge up a hill which wiped out the North
>Koreans. That sounds a bit drastic, but useful.

I remember thinking one time when I was staring down the barrel of a .45, 
"thank God he does not have a knife."  Getting penetrated by a knife is 
somehow terrifying, and it also gives the wielder credible non-lethal 
options.  I think there have been several instances in recent times when 
bayonet charges have routed the enemy, even if no one actually got stabbed.  
A bayonet would be vital for handling prisoners, and possibly even reluctant 
heroes.  ;)

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:23:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:23:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408135946.02824dd0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D89BAB.38054%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 11:39 AM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to
> the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300
> feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the
> government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting.

Something is way wrong.  Spec velocity for M193 55gn ball is supposed to be
3250 fps.  You're saying it 2300?!  I've got a bunch of contract stuff.
I'll try to run it through the chrony this weekend.

Found some specs for military ammo:

     "U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition require a 55
grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity of 3,250 q 40 fps from a 20
inch test barrel measured 15 feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement
from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean radius at 200
yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates to approximately three MOA).
"Statistically average" M193 ranges from 1.2 to 1.6 inches mean radius,
which is equivalent to 1.8 to 2.4 MOA. "

     "NATO specifications for SS109 (U.S. M855) Ball require a 61.7 grain
(q 1.5 grains) with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,025 fps
(q 40 fps) from a 20 inch barrel 25 meters from the muzzle. Typical
velocity 15 feet from the M16A2's muzzle is around 3,100 fps. The accuracy
requirement from a test fixture equates to a maximum of approximately four
MOA over the 100 to 600 yard range. Typical accuracy of average lots in an
M16A2 is about 2+ MOA. This round must also penetrate a nominal 10 gauge
SAE 1010 or 1020 steel test plate at a range of at least 570 meters (623
yards). "
 
> I did all my reading on this topic over a dozen years ago, but I seem to
> recall that there has been plenty of reliable material published that
> debunked the notion of the magical differences causing the 5.56 to tumble,
> etc. when no other bullets were able to achieve the same effect.  I said
> that very poorly.  What I mean is that government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam
> had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other
> assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.

All rifle bullets tumble when transiting media.  The M193 round just does it
quicker.  I direct you to several like animal and ballistic studies that
confirm this.  Try The International wound ballistics association
publications or my personal favorite "Antipersonnel Weapons" published by
SIPRI.  There are some rather high speed photographs.

It should be noted that analysis of casualties in the Vietnam war showed the
5.56x45mm to be 11% more likely to produce a casualty (lethal) than
7.62x51mm.  Of course the NVA and VC may have just dragged off all the
bodies with 7.62 holes in them to confise us poor Americans.

> Including poorer 
> accuracy.  

What?!  The M-16 has consistently proved to have a smaller MOA than the M-14
since adoption and up to the present day.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
Message-ID: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Look at Shellshock.  It's just a combat system, but 
it's "free".  The idea is to get everyone to use it, and then 
sell them ancillary product.  In their case, selling "instant 
terrain", etc.

You would still need to defend the intellectual property 
rights of the "free" part of the game, or some game company 
would run off with it.

The core part of GURPS might as well be "free".  I think that 
SJ Games makes most of their money off of all of those 
supplements.  And you have to keep making new supplements in 
order to make money.  It's not an industry with a lot of 
margin in it, either.  Software is expensive to create, more 
so than any role-playing game.  We really should pay someone 
like Loren or Doug a LOT more money for their work.  Imagine 
if Loren was paid as much to write these things as I am paid 
to design software architectures.  Doug would be able to 
spend ALL of this time writing - which I know would radically 
improve his quality and output.  Not that it's bad -- but he 
wouldn't have to do *anything* else (well, maybe feed 
penguins).  And if he had any economic worries (believe me, 
real life intrudes), they might be a lighter burden if he 
knew he had decent medical insurance, paid vacation, and a 
steady income from what he loves to do.

Mind you, we would all run out and apply for the job if that 
were true.

What I would be willing to pay for is a more well-thought out 
game.  I was willing to pay over 500 dollars to accumulate 
the whole PCCS set of books, just to get a "combat system".  
Note that I said "just".  If I could get that detail and 
quality (or better) in a single book, I would gladly pay over 
100 dollars for it (heck, I paid 200 for the Riverside 
Shakespeare, and you can download Shakespeare plays).  I 
would much rather have that than an endless series of rule 
books.

OTOH, I do want an endless series of adventure books, 
background, etc.  I would pay 10 to 20 dollars a month for a 
subscription to a monthly edition of JTAS which would have to 
be equal in quality and depth to a non-gaming magazine 
(Precision Shooting).  Unfortunately, there are more 
benchrest shooters than Traveller players with money.

Given our numbers, and given what we really want and expect, 
we really need to reconsider the economic model.  And not 
just from the perspective of "let's go make a free game".

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:39:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:39:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
Message-ID: <B8D89F67.3805D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 12:46 PM, Sam Draper at samdraper@lansource.net wrote:
> 
> That is very interesting.  I have read in tests that little darts at high
> velocities are remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do
> little tissue damage.  But odd things happen at high velocities.  I'll see
> if I can dig up my source.

It depends on how well they are stabilized.  The trick is to make a
projectile stable in air, but unstable in tissue.  As tissue is about 800
times denser, this is generally not a problem.  As you are doubtlessly
aware, all projectiles tend to yaw, and this tendency is exacerbated when
transiting media.  The long, thin projectile tends to tumble and bend,
creating large permanent wound tracks.  Also, a quick review of Mach's
equation will show that retardation rates for these long projectiles are
high, meaning that more energy is dumped into the target more quickly.

Lastly, it is much easier to drive 'darts' at very high velocities. once a
projectile passes 1450 m/s, the speed of sound in tissue, there is a
dramatic increase in tissue damage.

See Charters & Charters (1976):

Experiments conducted with steel spheres at velocities around 2000 m/s
showed that such projectiles  "could be expected to have significantly
different wounding effect than larger spheres, with approximately the same
energy, impacting at about 750 m/s. The smaller spheres showed less
penetration in gelatin blocks, but much greater lateral damage."

And later: "This type of wound would be particularly disabling and may
require new approaches to debridement and wound closure."

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:48:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:48:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092046.DSD03610@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>     "U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition 
>require a 55 grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity 
>of 3,250 q 40 fps from a 20 inch test barrel measured 15 
>feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement
>from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean 
>radius at 200 yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates 
>to approximately three MOA).

back in 1989, we tested 5.56mm SS109 from four different 
M16A2 (we just got them) at 300 yards.  The range was 
outdoors, so wind was a factor.  The shooters were not your 
run of the mill soldiers.  The lesson was that shooting 
outdoors is not shooting in a test tunnel.  The average group 
size was over 12 inches (some people managed smaller - as 
small as 4 inches).

Using the M-21 without the scope, just NM iron sights, using 
M118 special ball, we all managed 3 to 4 inch groups.

I'm not sure what I would ascribe the difference to, other 
than quality of weapon and quality of ammunition.  

Something else to consider - there is a maximum degree of 
engineering tolerance that you can measure and control when 
manufacturing or reloading ammunition.  The reason that I 
stick to .30 caliber is that those tolerances have less 
effect on a larger, heavier round.  The bullet is larger and 
heavier, the case larger, and the powder charge heavier.  So 
if I vary by the same amount, there's less of an effect - 
more consistent ammunition.

Another reminder - in benchrest shooting, if you don't limit 
the magnification or weapon weight, people tend to the .22 
PPC.  It's an *extremely* accurate round out of extremely 
accurate rifles.  But as soon as the magnification is limited 
to 6x, or the weapons are firing from NM iron sights, 
the .308 rules, even over the 6mm PPC.  The .223 Remington - 
is not seen - in benchrest circles.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:53:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:53:05 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.110558.7F2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several 
> places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and 
> they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone 
> in the place.

"the rifle"?

What is it, a Barret .50 or something? 

> I went out and bought another one.  But it's not like the 
> place I work for now really needs to know that.  You really 
> are treated as a second-class citizen, just for owning a 
> firearm.

I'd be surprised if that happened around here.

> I don't know how Tod does it, or Mark, or some of the other 
> NFA holders.  People would jump out of their skins here if I 
> told them I was going to buy an NFA weapon.

Ok, *that* I can understand.

> ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because 
> people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.

I suspect that folks are still gonna get a bit uncomfortable around
folks who are "over-armed" for the situation. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:54:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:54:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <20020405.142533.-122687.3.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20409.111006.0U8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> How about oosik? 
>
> Say what??? What's Oosik??

It's the penis bone of walruses.

Yes, many mammals have a *real* "boner". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:55:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:55:50 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.111435.4V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the 
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of 
> war.  People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or 
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.  
> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their 
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full 
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in 
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything 
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).
>
> It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message 
> across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you 
> have to do.
>
> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their 
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like 
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to 
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough 
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their 
> ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on 
> the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay 
> waste to an advanced industrial society?

If they have reason to *expect* that sort of thing? 

A *lot*. Especially given that once nuclear damper tech is available,
decontamination is a matter of raising the decay rate of the fallout
and other contaminated material as high as you can without generating
more heat than you want to deal with. 

A planet is a *big* place. 

There's also the fact that if you do it to them, you'd better expect
them to return the favor.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:57:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:57:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020405164806.00a49df0@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <20409.112410.6E7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:20:15 -0700, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>
>>Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>>blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>>strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.
>
> Put me down as afraid of guns, then.  Being in the presence of a real, 
> functioning weapon makes me nervous.  In most circumstances, I would refuse 
> to even hold one.
>
> To some extent, this is probably because I was never acclimated to them as 
> a youth, through hunting or whatever.  But I am similarly nervous around 
> anything that can cause death or serious injury, even/especially by 
> accident or negligence.

Knives, chainsaw, cars, hammers, baseball bats....

> For example, I used to work at a gas station; part 
> of my job was refilling propane cylinders from the big tank out back.  I 
> hated it.  The stuff was cryo-cold, flammable, explosive, and under high 
> pressure.  I was trained for it, but I still hated it.

I used to work around stuff like hydrofluoric acid and 180 C baths of
concentrated caustic (NaOH/KOH mix). 

I was *cautious*. I wasn't scared.

Someone who *was* scared managed to splash himself with weak HF
solution *because* he was scared. Rather than lower the carrier
carefully into the bath by the handle, he'd *drop* them.

Rational caution is one thing. *Fear* is quite another.

> There's also the "with great power comes great responsibility" angle.
> I do not want or need the power to maim or kill another human being,
> or the responsibility that necessarily comes with it.

I take it that you don't drive then. 

Seriously. a car is a deadlier weapon than most guns.

> It's a lot harder to kill someone with a jacket.  Definitely not 
> impossible, but jackets are not primarily designed to apply deadly 
> force.  A firearm is, and I grant them all the respect they are due
> as a result.

Knives are primarily designed to cut flesh. It's all in how you use a
tool. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:58:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:58:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20409.114039.8S6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear 
> devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and 
> convincing reasons for it.

It takes an unreasonable amount of effort to damage a *planet*. 

Destroying cities and installations on or near the surface is easier,
but still, a lot of effort. 

You've got to realize that there are lots of places on earth, hell,
even in the US where you could set off the biggest nuke ever made, and
the folks a town or two over wouldn't notice anything but the fallout.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:59:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:59:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20409.114950.6a1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> But mutual destruction is not assured.  One side would have to win a 
> years-long naval campaign in order to deliver its nuclear warheads against 
> all the appropriate targets.  Strephon, from the comfort of his Capital 
> doesn't fear in the least for his own safety or his families in the event 
> of nuclear exchange with the Zhodani.  And the Vargr Extents are such a 
> hotheaded place that I cannot be convinced all the nuclear warheads that 
> have been in that region for centuries were never used due to its leaders' 
> very enlightened view about protecting civilization.  As the Sword Worlders 
> should have nuked whoever they were ticked at many times over by now.  And 
> the Aslan prize honor well above their own individual lives.  Aside from 
> cultural biases toward or away nuclear warfare, there have just been so 
> many _individual_ sophonts with their fingers on the button in different 
> times and places that it should have happened many times by now.

Remember, nuking a *planet* is about the same "scale" as nuking a
*city* now. At least relative to the sizes of the major players.

But it involves a *lot* more effort. We are talking tens to *hundreds*
of *thousands* of warheads. And that's just for a "sparse" coverage. 

A size 7 world is 7000 miles in diameter. That gives a surface area of
over 150 *million* square miles. That means that if you hit it with
10,000 warheads they'll average 125 miles apart!

With 100,000, they'll average a bit under 40 miles apart.

Planets are *big*.

> And in a way, the game's authors agree with that notion.  But only in 
> general.  There seems to be a lack of specific worlds that have actually 
> been thoroughly nuked over to go with the general history of 
> destruction.  Let me go through all the relevant canonical evidence that 
> come to my (sputtering and unreliable) memory to see what each one in turn 
> makes me think about how MAD affected things.
>
> The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:
> The Ancients War
> Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani
> Presumably the N Interstellar wars
> Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night
> Very early in Zhodani history
> Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) from 
> on Darrian

No, what happened to the Darrians was an accident. An induced solar
"flare" of incredible magnitude. Sort of a "mini-nova". 

> At least I think it was nukes with Darrian.  Or something just as 
> devastating, so the MAD concept would still apply.

Except the Darrians are the only ones who have the Star Trigger. 

> I can easily accept that enough time has passed since nuclear weapons were 
> used by the Ancients that we shouldn't look for reduced populations or 
> uninhabitable areas due to them.  But their war is an example of none of 
> the sides being deterred by MAD.
>
> The war against the Ziru Sirka should have left marks on various planets 
> that would have been mentioned elsewhere in canon.  It is an example of 
> just how geographically vast wars between interstellar powers are, and how 
> that makes MAD unlikely.
>
> There don't seem to be any worlds still showing mentionable signs of 
> nuclear weapons from the N Instellar Wars.  Ditto for examples from the 
> Long Night.

You are forgetting that with nuclear dampers, you can clean up the
radioactive contamination *easily*. and unless truly amazing numbers of
weapons are used, the actual *blast* damage will easily disappear on
something as big as a planet. 

> Darrian seems to be a good canonical instance of nuclear warfare happening 
> specifically somewhere, not just in a general way to somebody.

That wasn't anything as trivial as a nuclear war. The Maghiz clobbered
electronics and the like for *parsecs* from the Darrian home system.

> I find it hard to believe there are no famous specific examples of worlds 
> in the Core sector being "razed" by nukes dropped by one of the Barracks 
> Emperors or wannabes.  Civil wars tend to be the least civil, as the old 
> saying goes.

You are missing the *scale* of things. Dropping a nuke on a planet is
(relatively speaking) equivalent to throwing a grenade into a *room* of
a building in a city. At worst, blowing up a small building. 

You won't find the damage unless you *look* for it. 

> There are also quite a few canonical instances of balkanized worlds or 
> neighboring worlds that are on the brink of total nuclear warfare in the 
> current timeline.  If such tensions have careened towards the brink so 
> often in current times, how could they have been so consistently avoided 
> during the pasts of all the locations that canon visits and shows us.

Maybe they weren't. 

It's just that contrary to popular belief, anything short of the level
required to trigger something like a nuclear winter, *won't* be all
that noticeable even 300 years later. 

Even without damper tech, in 300 years high-level nuclear waste will be
no more radioactive than the original uranium ore. Stuff like fallout
would take careful tests to detect. The craters of surface blasts would
be detectable with radiation detectors. But only as areas a bit more
radioactive than normal. 

Bulldoze the dirt and rubble from the "total destruction" zone around
the crater into it (a good idea to both fill the hole and to help
"immobilize" the contaminated material) and it'd be hard to tell after
even a hundred years.

Remember, the more radioactive something is, the *shorter* the
half-life, and thus the quicker it becomes safe.

So, short of researching local history, or doing a *detailed* survey of
an area, you'd never know that there'd been a nuclear war unless it was
*really* bad.


Which reminds me. Some day I need to sit down and try to figure out
what would be required to produce a "burned off" world such as appears
in some of Norton's books. Especially something like "the Big Burn" on
Terra from "Plague Ship". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:01:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:01:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.121152.9P1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>      "Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani."
>
>      Canon is littered with references to the Vilani "way" of war being 
> brutally pragmatic.  IMHO, the Ziru Sirka would have used nukes early and 
> often.  Then again, I have trouble believing the canonical description of 
> the Interstellar War anyway.
>      GT:RoF has the Vilani visiting Terra after the 2nd War.  These 
> representatives of the ZS must have been either brain dead or traitors not 
> to bring an accurate report back to Dingir from Sol.  After being shown a 
> ~10 billion humans on an industrialized world, the "brutally pragmatic" 
> Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt.

Sorry, not *possible*. Not even the third Imperium has *that* kind of
firepower. 

It'd (barely) be possible to "pave" the surface, if you had *lots* of
time and money..

>      All the explanations about population levels, internal Vilani politics, 
> blah, blah, blah, are just liberal doses of handwavium.  With the 
> superioroty in maneuver drives and missile tech that RoF claims for them, 
> the Ziro Sirka would have, could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it 
> glowed.

Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
Millions, hundreds of millions.

>      Perhaps, or maybe it's just damper technology.  I don't have Striker to 
> hand, but IIRC dampers pretty much draw the fangs out of nukes.  How 
> easy/hard would it be for PDFs to maintain damper coverage for an entire 
> world?  Could such coverage be projected from orbit by naval vessels?  If 
> so, the 3I could show up above some balkanized world with a nasty squabble 
> taking place and declare a "no-nukes" zone with a couple of orbitting 
> escorts.

It'd be easier to just "sweep" areas with dampers set to "mildly"
accelerate reactions and cause any chunks of fissionables above a
certain size to melt into puddles (which could lead to messy side
reactions as the spreading puddles meet).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:02:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:02:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <010301c1de1d$72819f80$a85d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20409.125213.4J9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>> I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because
>> humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill
>> that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate
>> thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in
>> Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost
>> any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something
>> separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before.
>
> The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
> Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
> million or more - far greater than the examples given above.

The camps didn't just kill Jews. Add in the homosexuals and gypsies and
you get more than 10 million.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] G:Ground Forces queston
In-Reply-To: <B8D3910E.30E8%jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20409.133914.4F8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In the Grav vehicle design section, duct fans are listed as having a
> positive energy amount, instead of negative.  Is this an error or do they
> actually act as power plants?

Well, unless they are driven electrically, they are engines turning the
fans.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:05:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:05:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3B11B.377EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20409.134026.4K8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/5/02 7:30 PM, Trista at asmahan@the-spa.com wrote:
>
>> Hmmm, that sounds like the book 'Forlorn Hope'; mercenaries use
>> something called a 'cone bore rifle', the barrel of which is supposedly
>> of diamond and fires an osmium needle which is compressed as it travels
>> through the barrel and reaches hypervelocites. Had them in cannon size
>> too as I recall.

And it was one of those artillery sized ones that got them in trouble.
They managed to shoot down a multi-billion credit starship with it.

Thus causing the opposition to specifically *exclude* them from the
amnesty. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:06:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:06:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Flechettes
Message-ID: <200204092052.DSD04457@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn
<snip about flechettes>

See Dr. Fackler at
http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/pmrb.html

There are the other bullets we were discussing there, as well 
as Fackler talking about flechettes.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:08:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:08:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:35:30PM -0400
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:35:30PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> You would still need to defend the intellectual property 
> rights of the "free" part of the game, or some game company 
> would run off with it.

That's the difference philosophy between the GPL and BSD.  The GPL
says `this is free, and whatever you do with it must also be free.'
The BSD says `this is free; enjoy.'  I'm partial to the GPL, simply
because otherwise someone else can take that work and profit from
closing it.  But there are good arguments for both models, depending
on what one's goals are.

Tax-funded work, for instance, should be BSD-licensed, never
proprietary, thus allowing everyone to use it.

> We really should pay someone like Loren or Doug a LOT more money for
> their work.

Well, it's all a matter of what the market will bear.  Software pays
better because there's more demand.  RPGs pay worse because there's
not as much.

I try to help by purchasing about as many RPGs as I can afford (I've
got almost all of the main GT line, including GT:FT, GT:FI and GT:GF).
I figure that Loren, Doug, Marc and the rest all deserve a bit for the
good work they've done.

The fact that I collect RPGs doesn't enter into it:-)

> What I would be willing to pay for is a more well-thought out 
> game.

That's part of the value add one gets with a professional editor.
Most people cannot properly edit their own work.  I wonder if it might
not be possible for there to be money in taking freely-available work
and compiling it onto one large work.  Slap a compilation copyright
over the whole thing (to prevent others from just grabbing it up), but
the individual pieces are still free for anyone.

> Heck, I paid 200 for the Riverside Shakespeare, and you can download
> Shakespeare plays.

Yup.  Shakespeare's copy rights long ago expired--yet there's still a
market in them.  And there's still a market in plays, despite the fact
that, AFAICT, no-one's managed to do any better since.

> Given our numbers, and given what we really want and expect, we
> really need to reconsider the economic model.  And not just from the
> perspective of "let's go make a free game".

Well, something folks should realise is that it's not a free game in
the sense of money: a lot of work and effort would go into such a
thing.  I've spent man-months working on travlib and travtrack; I've
poured a lot of my life into them.  The same would hold for a free
system.  It's free in the sense of freedom; anyone could enjoy its
use.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If your adversary is badly bunkered, there is no rule against your
standing over him and counting his strokes aloud, but it will be a wise
precaution to arm yourself with the niblick before doing so, so as to
meet him on equal terms.                 --Horace G. Hutchinson, 1886

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:10:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:10:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F164o8C7wyfwjHNuQuN000048cd@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon:

>I've shot for fun at ranges where state police were
>practicing with their mouse guns.  I was using a Remington
>700 Police DM in .308, with a new barrel.  Past 300 yards,
>there was an incremental advantage, which really opened up at
>about 500 yards (hey, there really IS a morning glory effect).
>
>They were not smirking afterwards.  They wanted my weapon.

True, issue semi-autos do not have the accuracy of accurized bolt guns.  But 
the AR-15 is pretty close, as close as it comes really.  Comparing police 
issue M16s (Vietnam era M16A1s or carbines?) to a 700 Police DM is really 
apples and oranges.

> >Anyway, when we are talking 1,000 yards we are really
> >talking about ranges for snipers, not infantry.
> >
>
>OK.  But how do we identify these men if the basic weapon
>can't do half the sniper's range?

I think most Marines can hit a torso sized target at 500 yards about 100% of 
the time.  I don't think I am going out on a limb by saying their chances of 
hitting the target at that range is not going to be any greater with an M14. 
  Certainly a match M16 can beat a match M14 at that range (absent extreme 
winds).

>I never had a maintenance problem with the M-21, nor were the
>optics a problem.  I would recommend not taking off the
>sights (some mounts I saw later were silver soldered to
>prevent removal).

What mount are you using?  I have never found one that repeats zero after 
removal, and I am not comoftable with having to resight a weapon every time 
I want to give it a thorough cleaning.  I have looked at the ARMS mount, and 
it looks pretty solid, but it will still not be as good as mounting optic 
direcly on the reciever like you can with the M16A4.

>They are not "tweaked" so much as
>specifically chosen/selected and then "gone over" to be
>properly re-bedded (glass bedding certain areas).

The problem with the M14 is that the bedding needs to be redone every 
season.  Otherwise, its accuracy will deteriorate.  The M16 does not need 
bedding, and it can easily be free-floated.

>factory rifles today (bolt-actions) come with aluminum
>bedding blocks as standard, and have higher quality barrels
>than virtually any military rifle.  So many of them are
>accurate enough "out of the box" to give any semi-auto (and
>this includes a tricked out M-16) a run for its money.

I would say that most commercial rifles, like the ones from Wal-Mart, would 
definately not get better accuracy than a match M16.  Certainly a tricked 
out or upgraded bolt action would probably be better than a tricked out M16 
though.

>Even though Remington has had its quality control problems
>over the years, I could take virtually any Sendero model out
>of the box and out range anyone with a tricked out M-16.

Of course it depends on what you are doing.  Would you arm an entire army 
with Senderos?  It is not exactly the ideal close-quarters weapon.  Sure, 
the bolt gun would be superior to an M16 in the specific scenario you 
mention, but that does not necessarily make it superior in all situations.  
The M16A2 is a classic Jack of all Trades weapon.  Capable of aimed fire out 
to 500 yards, most effective at under 200 yards, which (they say) is where 
most infantry combat takes place.  While the M16 may have rang limits, it is 
supported by a variety of longer range weapons.  I think the army, when 
adopting the M16, correctly decided that there is a real limit to how far 
the average infantryman can shoot effectively, and adopted a weapon that is 
optimized for that range.  The longer range stuff is the responsiblity of 
the supporting weapons (which you left out of your sniper scenario).

On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off some 
M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and issuing them at 
the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max 500 yards?) and sniper 
(800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the guy with the M14 the 
"designated marksman" or something like that.  The guy who wrote the article 
I read did not like the idea, because of the the difficulties associated 
with the accurized M14s as stated above and standardization issues, but from 
what I understand these were deployed to Afghanistan so we should be getting 
reports soon.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:11:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:11:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204072135.DON00704@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D8A4C3.3806F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 2:35 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> laning asks
>> 
>> Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread,
>> mentioning the ability of various Traveller races to cope
>> with recoil, I should have also mentioned battle dress.
>> That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more recoil.  But
>> how much?
>> 
> 
> Good question.  I've always wondered about this, because if
> you could carry large weapons and handle high recoil, you
> would have a semi-auto rifle that fired high velocity 20mm
> (not low velocity 20mm like the OICW).
> 
> 20mm californium rounds, that is.  The one part of Striker I
> really liked.  Hit someone in battledress and watch the
> little mushroom cloud.

With 'soft recoil' weapons, you can shoot some pretty big stuff.  The
problem is having any accuracy when shooting off a non-rigid platform (like
a person).

I have a photo somewhere of someone shooting a .50 Browing machinegun (soft
recoil version) full auto off their shoulder.

How does 'soft recoil' work you ask?

In a simple example, a large percentage of the weapon is capable of movement
within its mount.  The moving portion (including the barrel and bolt)  is
held rearward under spring pressure.  On firing, the moving assembly is
propelled forward, with the actual round being fired at some predetermined
point, usually just before 'run out'.  The rearward force of firing must
overcome the forward momentum of the assembly before any recoil is felt.

This is the reason that open bolt SMGs have less recoil than closed bolt
guns.

it is quite possible to design gun of fairly large caliber and KE that can
be fired tolerably by a person.

The problem with these systems is maintaining point of aim while the
assembly goes rocketing forward before the round is actually fired.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:12:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:12:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8D8A503.38070%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 3:05 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth
> for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and
> for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females
> it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing.
> Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how
> old the data is.

I just looked at my spreadsheets and see that the thickness I used was
actually 25 cm.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:14:52 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204092104.DSD06042@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson asks
>
>"the rifle"?

Remington 700 Police DM, in .308. (Comes with HS Precision 
stock with integral aluminum bedding block). Action 
reworked/firing pin replaced with titanium pin, barrel 
replaced with heavy contour Douglas Premium Match barrel, 
Timney trigger, Leupold Mark V M3 10x scope with mil-dot 
reticle, NEAR one-piece scope base optimized to get the most 
elevation adjustement out of the scope, Vortex flash 
suppressor, bipod, Simrad KN-250 GEN III night vision with 
adapter to fit over Leupold Mark V.

Some were frightened just by seeing it, some by going to the 
range with me and *seeing* it.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F36GB9wIWXLU9778dvM000038ae@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon said:

>back in 1989, we tested 5.56mm SS109 from four different
>M16A2 (we just got them) at 300 yards.  The range was
>outdoors, so wind was a factor.  The shooters were not your
>run of the mill soldiers.  The lesson was that shooting
>outdoors is not shooting in a test tunnel.  The average group
>size was over 12 inches (some people managed smaller - as
>small as 4 inches).

I think the military only requires 3 or 4 MOA from its M16A2s, so that is 
not out of line.  Standard issue M14s were not required to do any better.  
Whether those were mediocre rifles or mediocre ammo (I'll take your word for 
it that there were no mediocre shooters ;)), I've seen much better.

Were these U.S. rifles?  Just curious, as the army does not call the 62 
grain round SS109; here it is called M855.

>Using the M-21 without the scope, just NM iron sights, using
>M118 special ball, we all managed 3 to 4 inch groups.

That is not realy fair comparing an M21 with NM sights to issue M16s.  It is 
undeniable that the M14s have been entirely replaced by M16/AR-15s at the 
National Matches.  This is at ranges out to 600 yards.  The Marine team even 
switched, because they found it intolerable to keep getting whipped by the 
Army.  One shooting comparison between two different quality rifles is 
hardly an even playing field.

Did you guys see that a female teenage Marine won the national matches (with 
an M16) a few years ago?

>I'm not sure what I would ascribe the difference to, other
>than quality of weapon and quality of ammunition.

Ammunition maybe, and maybe poor quality assembly, but not the weapon 
system.

>The .223 Remington -
>is not seen - in benchrest circles.

The .223 is a fairly accurate round, on par with most cartridges.  The 308 
is theoretically more accurate.  It is certainly more resistant to the wind. 
  But as far as semi-auto platforms, there is nothing better than Stoner's 
design.  Put a 308 in an M16 platform, like the AR-10 or SR-25, and you get 
outstanding accuracy.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092132.DSF01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>  says
>Comparing police issue M16s (Vietnam era M16A1s or 
>carbines?) to a 700 Police DM is really 
>apples and oranges.
>

These were Montgomery County Police and Maryland State Police 
with heavily tricked-out M-16 variants (you know the type, 
looks like a Gauss rifle).  They were all firing match grade 
ammunition.  They did best at 100 yards, which is their 
engagement distance.  Past that...  Out at 800 yards, where 
the wind blows, you have to compensate more for the 5.56mm.

>
>I think most Marines can hit a torso sized target at 500 
>yards about 100% of the time.

Marines yes, Army infantry, no way.  And that assumes that 
your enemy is standing in the open.  Most experienced 
soldiers go into the prone.  Once you're in the prone, the 
bolt action in the hands of a sniper has the advantage, 
because you can hit grapefruit-sized targets very reliably at 
300 to 400 yards, and most of the time at 500.  Take those 
same Marines and try to have them hit the grapefruit at 500.  
There's probably a Distinguished Marksman in there, isn't 
there?

>  Certainly a match M16 can beat a match M14 at that range 
> absent extreme winds).
>

Part of the reason the M-16 does better is *over* a course of 
fire - fatigue due to recoil is an effect.  

>What mount are you using?  

The standard one that came with the weapon - round knob.  
There's a lot of grief to be had from removing it, but you 
can find a good one.  Then again - for purposes of real 
accuracy, I've never been able to get "detachable" mounts of 
any kind to repeat zero.


>scenario

That's why you shoot in order - RTO, machinegunner, anti-tank 
missile gunner, sergeant, LT.  But, like I said, spotting me 
in the first place is difficult.  But if all the police have 
is a set of mouseguns, then set up with a Sendero at 600 
yards.  Not one will ever return fire, unless there are more 
than four.

Go to the store and look at a Sendero.  It's not a custom 
weapon, but it is very, very good.  About the only thing it 
requires is a properly mounted high quality scope and having 
the bolt squared and lapped.  I've had two (and a 700P), and 
all of them were 1/2 MOA out of the box.  The remaining work 
was for my peace of mind.  My 700P was close to 1/4 MOA.

The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my 
rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these, 
and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get 
him without losing half the team or more."

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F166rhup7IpGwC6RZT20000d54e@hotmail.com>

Tod Glen:

>It depends on how well they are stabilized.  The trick is to make a
>projectile stable in air, but unstable in tissue.  As tissue is about 800
>times denser, this is generally not a problem.  As you are doubtlessly
>aware, all projectiles tend to yaw, and this tendency is exacerbated when
>transiting media.  The long, thin projectile tends to tumble and bend,
>creating large permanent wound tracks.  Also, a quick review of Mach's
>equation will show that retardation rates for these long projectiles are
>high, meaning that more energy is dumped into the target more quickly.

That all makes a lot of sense to me, but it just seems like I read something 
that said kind of the opposite.  The site where I thought I read that is 
down though, and my memory is hardly infallible - except in regards to the 
velocity of 5.56mm ball of course.  ;)

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:02:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:02:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F80Dll7fnp3eEHJtfob00001392@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon said:

>These were Montgomery County Police and Maryland State Police
>with heavily tricked-out M-16 variants (you know the type,
>looks like a Gauss rifle).  They were all firing match grade
>ammunition.  They did best at 100 yards, which is their
>engagement distance.  Past that...  Out at 800 yards, where
>the wind blows, you have to compensate more for the 5.56mm.

With tricke out M16s, these guys are crappy shots if they can not make a 
headshot at 600 yards.  True, your Sendero will be better, but the M16 
should still be able to do the job.

>Marines yes, Army infantry, no way.  And that assumes that
>your enemy is standing in the open.  Most experienced
>soldiers go into the prone.  Once you're in the prone, the
>bolt action in the hands of a sniper has the advantage,
>because you can hit grapefruit-sized targets very reliably at
>300 to 400 yards, and most of the time at 500.  Take those
>same Marines and try to have them hit the grapefruit at 500.
>There's probably a Distinguished Marksman in there, isn't
>there?

Again, no question that a 308 bolt gun will do better at longer ranges than 
an issue M16.  A tricked out AR-15 could be able to make headshots at that 
range too.  A 308 bolt gun from Wal-Mart would not.

>Part of the reason the M-16 does better is *over* a course of
>fire - fatigue due to recoil is an effect.

Sure.

> >What mount are you using?
>
>The standard one that came with the weapon - round knob.

Is that the Springfield mount?

>Then again - for purposes of real
>accuracy, I've never been able to get "detachable" mounts of
>any kind to repeat zero.

I have had outstanding results with mil-spec rails, but maybe our 
definitions of what is acceptable is different.

> >scenario
>
>That's why you shoot in order - RTO, machinegunner, anti-tank
>missile gunner, sergeant, LT.  But, like I said, spotting me
>in the first place is difficult.  But if all the police have
>is a set of mouseguns, then set up with a Sendero at 600
>yards.  Not one will ever return fire, unless there are more
>than four.

I would not be too sure.  People win national matches at 600 yards with 
M16s.  They can mount some pretty nice optics/night vision, etc. on their 
weapon, and the pros can make a headshot at that range.

Besides, in your sniper scenario, as a lover of peace and tranquility I'd 
simply avoid them.

>Go to the store and look at a Sendero.

I don't have to go to the store.  ;)

>It's not a custom
>weapon, but it is very, very good.  About the only thing it
>requires is a properly mounted high quality scope and having
>the bolt squared and lapped.  I've had two (and a 700P), and
>all of them were 1/2 MOA out of the box.  The remaining work
>was for my peace of mind.  My 700P was close to 1/4 MOA.

Which is not all that remarkable for rigs like that.  I actually like 
Winchesters and get similar results.  And don't you dare start a 
Winchester/Remington thing on this thread!

Anway, my point was that a stock AR-15 HBAR will get 1/2 MOA too.  1/4 MOA 
is doable with some upgrades.

I definately agree with you that wind effects 5.56 more than 308, but on the 
other hand you have to start making adjustments for wind for any caliber at 
the longer ranges you are talking about.

>The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my
>rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these,
>and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get
>him without losing half the team or more."

Those cops have seen one Stephen Segal movie too many.  ;)

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F80Dll7fnp3eEHJtfob00001392@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D8B7BA.3813B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 3:01 PM, Sam D at samdx@hotmail.com wrote:

>> The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my
>> rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these,
>> and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get
>> him without losing half the team or more."
> 
> Those cops have seen one Stephen Segal movie too many.  ;)

Reality.  The police evacuate the area.  Then they get their negotiator to
bore you to death.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092239.DSH02057@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>Reality.  The police evacuate the area.  Then they get their 
>negotiator to bore you to death.
>--

The assets that police have: time, time, and more time.  And 
some more time.

That's why you keep seeing idiots in orange jumpsuits or 
black bodybags on CNN.  The police wait until you decide to 
put on the orange suit, or they wait until you get so tired 
that they rush you and put the black bag on you.

Which makes me wonder what happened in various Federal 
situations.  As long as no one is being killed, I would 
presume that you have all the time in the world.  Even if 
they've killed officers, you can still wait.

ObTrav: Idiot players trapped in their ship by the police.  
Locals set up a carnival row; onlookers begin to camp out.  
News media do unflattering background stories on the players 
and their families. Police start pinochle tournament.  
Players resort to eating their shoes.



________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20409.121152.9P1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com> <20409.121152.9P1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020410084316.A2115@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

[someone wrote:]
> > Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt.
>
> Sorry, not *possible*. Not even the third Imperium has *that* kind of
> firepower.

Not with nukes, no.  They are quite expensive per unit of energy.  And
certainly not on a whim.

The Third Imperium could actually build and transport about 10^17 N
worth of HEPlaR drives per year.  Thruster plates would be even
easier, but I'll assume HEPlaR.  A decade worth of HEPlaR production
gives you 10^18 N of thrust.  The cost of building the mining systems
and refineries for them to run on water would would be relatively
trivial in comparison.

You find a nice large cometary body, say 1000 km across, to mount them
on.  You build a shell around it.  You accelerate it for a further
decade at 0.0003g (initially), aimed at Terra.  By the time it gets
there, about 60% of the mass has been consumed and it's moving at
about 1500 km/s.  If my calculations are correct, that should deliver
enough energy to overcome Earth's gravitational self-binding.

In practice it wouldn't be that efficient, but it would certainly
create a new asteroid belt, and render what's left of the planet into
a recondensing ball of gas.  It would also noticeably alter Earth's
orbit, lengthening or shortening the year by about half a day or so.


> > the Ziro Sirka would have, could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it 
> > glowed.
> 
> Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
> Millions, hundreds of millions.

What scary numbers.

Ten million 100-megaton warheads costs about 1 TCr at Ziru Sirka tech
levels.  That's less than some *single* systems' GWP for just one
year.  Furthermore, the whole load could be carried in a few transport
ships.  The total cost (including transportation) works out about the
same as a couple of dreadnaughts, and they deliver enough energy to
raise the temperature of the entire surface of the planet to the point
where it does *literally* glow.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>

The esteemed sophonts Summer, Pitt, Robertson, Bond, Laning, Wildstar and
others I am no doubt forgetting to credit, wrote eloquently on starship
insurance, leading me to commit random observations on insurance and law in
Traveller.

Your premiums would be a function your risk pool, the size of your
deductible, and what riders you have on your policy.

What kinds of insurance do starships need?  Several spring to mind.
Starships carrying a mortgage will require comprehensive insurance which
would include the following:

Theft and Casualty - Fairly straightforward, this insurance compensates the
insured in the event the ship, or any portion thereof, is stolen or damaged.
Common exclusions (circumstances under which the insurance does not apply)
would probably include: Loss as a result of Acts of God or Nature; Loss as a
result of Acts of Warfare; Loss as a result of Acts of Terrorism; Loss as a
result of Natural Hazards to Navigation; Loss due to Malice, Fraud or Acts
of Deliberate Intent on the part of the Insured, Loss Incurred while
Violating Imperial or Regional Law (including, among many things, travel in
a Red Zone.

Available riders (additional coverage relating to specific circumstances
available for higher premiums) would probably include: Atmospheric Entry;
Gas Giant Refueling; Planetfall Outside Approved Starports; Stellar Flares;
Uncharted Hazards to Navigation; Utilization of Jump-Space, Travel to an
Amber Zone.

Payouts in the event of damage will be the cost of repair of the damage, or
replacement of the damaged part(s) minus the deductible.  Payouts in the
case of theft or total loss of the vessel will be either the current value
of the ship (the Blue Book value) or a pre-agreed value established in the
policy (the more expensive, but perhaps better choice for older vessels that
may not hold their value as well.)  In either case, the payout would, of
course, be minus the deductible.

Premium reductions would probably be available for unusually well trained or
certified key crewmembers such as Captain, pilot and astrogator.
Anti-hijack and port security programs, as well as security officers on
board might also get you a discount if such things are not required by law
already.

That's frequently how insurance companies get policy holders to toe the
line.  Not by filling the policy with onerous requirements (although they're
not above that,) but by lobbying the law-making and regulatory bodies to
pass legislation and regulations that enforce the behavior the insurance
companies desire.  It also has the added benefit that the government is now
inspecting and enforcing for the insurance companies.

Modern day example:  Seat belts.  I don't think (although I could be wrong,
I'm still wet behind the ears) that insurance policies in the USA ever
required passengers in insured vehicles to wear seat belts.  Seat belts,
when used, lower insurance payouts.  Now, largely as a result of insurance
lobbying, seat belts must, by law, be worn in Texas and nearly everywhere
else. (any states in the union that don't require seat belts?)

This already too long by far, and I haven't even got into hypothetical legal
cases regarding theft and casualty insurance in the TU, much less moved on
to other kinds of insurance.

More on insurance later, if there is sufficient interest.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:55:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:55:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020410085426.A2419@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> Anyway, off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to
> make this work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the
> square-root of the inertial suppression factor.

If you're directly altering the strength of the interaction, the
strength should drop off exactly in line with the mass reduction.  The
square-root factor was when altering the *charge*.

You should likewise reduce the strength of the strong and weak forces.


Now, just Planck's constant to deal with :)

If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
well.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:57:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:57:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F793hRDT6Z3LstPGtPr00011ce3@hotmail.com>

So am I right in saying that these little gauss projectiles you all are 
talking about, the ones that do so much damage, are not fletchettes?  They 
use spin to stabilize in the air rather than little wings, right?

If so, that is where I got so horribly confused.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.151435.2e5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a 
> miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no 
> visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).

A pulse laser capable of doing srious damage to a human *will* leave a
path of ionization thru the air. This will give both a visible beam
*and* a distinctive noise. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:06:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:06:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20409.151650.6b9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/6/02 2:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>
>> 
>> But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a
>> miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no
>> visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).
>> 
>
> What type of laser? What power range?  Are their any ionizing effects?
> Certainly the laser makes noise when it hits the target.  Steam explosions
> in tissue, the popping of superheated fat.
>
> And ever looked at a later with LI gear?  Super obvious.  Like having a big
> pointer going back to the firer.  And lasers are relatively easy to defeat,
> or at least attenuate.  A few mils of highly reflective material sewn into
> clothing, prismatic aerosols.  As mentioned in a previous post, lasers are
> not good penetrators.  The problem is with the nature of lasers themselves.
> The have to vaporize there way through materials.  But the vaporized
> material itself can act as a hindrance to the laser.

Which is why you use a pulse laser with a *short* pulse duration. The
target spot flashes into plasma at supersonic speeds and blasts a nice
hole. 

And reflective material won't help as much as people think. 99%
reflectivity is *hard* to achieve. And 1% of the pulse energy is still
nasty. 

> Also, water (and by analogy tissue) is a great thermal sink. 55 calories to
> raise 1 cc of water 1 degree centigrade, IIRC.

Yeah, but given that the pulse energy is in the kJ to MJ range, this
isn't as much of a problem as you may think.

Remember, *by definition* a laser weapon has to be able to deposit
damaging amounts of energy. 

Basicly, the only effect wavelength will have is on the penetration
depth. That is, how far the energy of the pulse pentrates before being
absorbed. 

Keep in mind that while the *energy* of the pulse might only be a few
kilojoules the *power* level will be in the megawatt to gigawatt range.
Pulses of 1 millisecond or *shorter* will be wanted, both to avoid
problems with target movement, but also because the shorter duration
tends to increase the "shock" effect due to increased rapidity of
energy deposition.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <20409.151650.6b9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018393991.5137.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Which is why you use a pulse laser with a *short* pulse duration. The
> target spot flashes into plasma at supersonic speeds and blasts a nice
> hole. 

And, since this isn't clear, it's probably better to use multiple pulses; if
the pulses are close enough together in time you can drill a hole.

> Basicly, the only effect wavelength will have is on the penetration
> depth. That is, how far the energy of the pulse pentrates before being
> absorbed. 

Well, it has a fairly significant effect on range.  Higher penetration also
allows higher energy per pulse, since heat is deposited efficiently at a
greater depth.
> 
> Keep in mind that while the *energy* of the pulse might only be a few
> kilojoules the *power* level will be in the megawatt to gigawatt range.
> Pulses of 1 millisecond or *shorter* will be wanted, both to avoid
> problems with target movement, but also because the shorter duration
> tends to increase the "shock" effect due to increased rapidity of
> energy deposition.

Think microsecond.  You want to create a supersonic shock effect.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:29:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:29:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>

Used to be Scripting Help...

 Well IMTU, originally there wasn't any computer platforms. Simply because
as the Ref I wasn't at the time into computers at all. The subject was
never a point.

 However now I find that there were/are hundreds of computer platcorms in
the world. not counting the versions of several of them. What would this
mean to the TU?

 As some have written about the great beast Gates. I thought that a user
of a minority system could have a few points to add. I mean just because a
new system is forced upon the public. Doesn't magically make all computer
users have it on their desks.

 Taking a clue about the difficulties in file work betwen a windrone any
version and the Commodore. I have been making notes on a run for my
upcoming rebirth Traveller game. Team finds a "disk" that contains the
secret information. but it is not compatible with what they have on the
ship. Now how do they read the information with out destroying the
contents. A fact that I have heard about in older windrone systems being
copied to newer systems. But point is that Idon'T think in Traveller there
is a mega corp making 100% of the computers and all the Os for the
software. I would propose that there are many smaller companies making
software and computers using their own systems. As in the 80s in this
world. Increase that to the tech levels of the worlds, non impperial
worlds with their own standards and there is a situation. One that I am
not certain the Computer skill as written covers in CT.

 As a simple example to this, say I write a file in geoWrite/Whels on my
Commodore. Add to that a GeoPaint file of a map. Send this to someone that
uses a windrone machine. Say this is done online. Any one tapping the line
would collect the file. but unless they have the same equipment as I do,
then it is a bummer to read. BTW: that also includes the fonts. As the
GeoWrite/Whels uses IIRC VLIR a form of image rather than ascii or pet
ascii codes for the charcters. The map would be a lage image file.

 Now I do know that there is a file called "gwimport.exe" created by
maurice Randall that will allow a windrone user to read the base ascii of
the GeoWrite file. It is a Pd one and i have a copy on my BBS. There is
also one for the Amiga called "gwimport.lha" That also is on my BBS. Yet
the file is not one that the majority of useers would have in their tools
disks. Oh FWIW the C= has tools to read the text files in IIRC ascii from
the 1.44 formatted disks. This tool is a german one called "GeoDos".

 As you can see the Ref could install the ability for tools/files to be
about for the higher level computer skilled character to open files from
other platforms.

 Naturally I suspect that the more computer savy members will have more to
say on the subject of cross platform work. Including older editions of
systems. This is just to stimulate the concept of computers not being
unified in the Thrid imperium.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F210WagewMS59IvqvIy000169c3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4237A.16506.A62A44@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 6:18, Sam D wrote:

> But as to your basic point that an M1 gets better accuracy than an
> M16A1, as far as issue weapons I would not be too sure.  The M16's
> action probably gives better accuracy.

My experience with the M16A1 and the M1 (though only one sample of it), 
both unmodified from issue, both using military ball, was that their 
accuracy at 100m was similar, though the M1's better trigger made it 
easier to get the best from the rifle consistently. At 300m the M1 
grouped better in all but very still conditions because the heavier 
bullet wasn't pushed around as much by the wind.

> Also, the M1's wood stock is not so great when you do a lot of firing.

I'd be more concerned about the relatively light barrel, actually.

> The M16 has much less recoil.

Now this you do notice.

> On the other hand, the M16 is lousy if you are using a
> sling (because the sling connects to the front sight which is
> connected directly to the barrel) and it has a very thin barrel.

It's lousy if you use the fore-end, full-stop.

> I bet the M16A2, with the heavy barrel, does better than the Garand
> though. 

The barrel's not thick all the way, though.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CB4251C.2440.AC8C18@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 10:44, Megan Robertson wrote:

> Insurance companies have been in the business of ripping clients off
> since they began, and I doubt they'll change... 
> 
> However, they do often state preconditions, as well as having
> 'weasel' clauses in the contract. When I took out household
> insurance a while back I had to upgrade the front door lock and they
> wanted me to get a burglar alarm until I told them I kept a Doberman
> pinscher :-) 

When I took out insuarance they wanted to put a note to the effect that 
I lived in a high burglary area, and had no alarm. They said that if I 
installed one they'd have to come round and check that this was so. 
They declined to come and check out the quality of the two bull 
terriers, though (and still put the rider in, bastards).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:35:30PM -0400
Message-ID: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 14:56, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Yup.  Shakespeare's copy rights long ago expired--yet there's still a
> market in them.  And there's still a market in plays, despite the fact
> that, AFAICT, no-one's managed to do any better since.

Shakepear didn't have any copyrights on his work - they didn't exist at 
that time. 

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F164o8C7wyfwjHNuQuN000048cd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4295B.22483.BD2072@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 20:59, Sam D wrote:

> Of course it depends on what you are doing.  Would you arm an entire
> army with Senderos?  It is not exactly the ideal close-quarters
> weapon.  Sure, the bolt gun would be superior to an M16 in the
> specific scenario you mention, but that does not necessarily make it
> superior in all situations.  The M16A2 is a classic Jack of all
> Trades weapon.  Capable of aimed fire out to 500 yards, most
> effective at under 200 yards, which (they say) is where most
> infantry combat takes place.  While the M16 may have rang limits, it
> is supported by a variety of longer range weapons.  I think the
> army, when adopting the M16, correctly decided that there is a real
> limit to how far the average infantryman can shoot effectively, and
> adopted a weapon that is optimized for that range.  The longer range
> stuff is the responsiblity of the supporting weapons (which you left
> out of your sniper scenario). 

For what you're talking about the M16 is more accurate than you need, 
and there are better weapons out there for this sort of work - like the 
AK-47 (though for westerners you'd want to lengthen the stock).
 
> On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off
> some M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and
> issuing them at the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max
> 500 yards?) and sniper (800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the
> guy with the M14 the "designated marksman" or something like that. 
> The guy who wrote the article I read did not like the idea, because
> of the the difficulties associated with the accurized M14s as stated
> above and standardization issues, but from what I understand these
> were deployed to Afghanistan so we should be getting reports soon. 

I'm not convinced that these are that big and issue. Every time you 
deploy the weapon should be sighted in first, and I never noticed any 
issues with bedding in my M1. Besides unless there are serious problems 
with this the better trigger will, IME, work in the M1's favour. As the 
M14 (AFAIK) didn't have any significant changes in it trigger (aside 
from the full-auto option) it should have a similar advantage, 
especially over an issue M16A2's trigger.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204092104.DSD06042@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB42A0A.17821.BFCECC@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 17:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Leonard Erickson asks
> >
> >"the rifle"?
> 
> Remington 700 Police DM, in .308. (Comes with HS Precision 
> stock with integral aluminum bedding block). Action 
> reworked/firing pin replaced with titanium pin, barrel 
> replaced with heavy contour Douglas Premium Match barrel, 
> Timney trigger, Leupold Mark V M3 10x scope with mil-dot 
> reticle, NEAR one-piece scope base optimized to get the most 
> elevation adjustement out of the scope, Vortex flash 
> suppressor, bipod, Simrad KN-250 GEN III night vision with 
> adapter to fit over Leupold Mark V.
> 
> Some were frightened just by seeing it, some by going to the 
> range with me and *seeing* it.

Sounds cool. What sort of groups do you get with it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:04:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:04:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D8A503.38070%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB42A0A.7930.BFCE18@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 14:02, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/7/02 3:05 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth
> > for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and
> > for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females
> > it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing.
> > Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how
> > old the data is.
> 
> I just looked at my spreadsheets and see that the thickness I used was
> actually 25 cm.

Cool. You had me thinking that everyone in the US was barrel chested 
for a moment there. :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204072135.DON00704@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.161536.4M2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> laning asks
>>
>>Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread, 
>>mentioning the ability of various Traveller races to cope 
>>with recoil, I should have also mentioned battle dress.  
>>That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more recoil.  But 
>>how much?
>
> Good question.  I've always wondered about this, because if 
> you could carry large weapons and handle high recoil, you 
> would have a semi-auto rifle that fired high velocity 20mm 
> (not low velocity 20mm like the OICW).
>
> 20mm californium rounds, that is.  The one part of Striker I 
> really liked.  Hit someone in battledress and watch the 
> little mushroom cloud.

Consider a "heavy weapon" for a K'kree. Something that "braces" against
the breastbone. I daresay that 20mm wouldn't be out of the question.

I recall some SF race that was built along the lines of the larger
terran ursines (Kodiaks, Polar bears, that sort of thing). A rifle for
one of *them* was a light anti-tank weapon for a human. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020409220409.8A29027AB5@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020409165807.00a496c0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 11:24:10 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> > To some extent, this is probably because I was never acclimated to them as
> > a youth, through hunting or whatever.  But I am similarly nervous around
> > anything that can cause death or serious injury, even/especially by
> > accident or negligence.
>
>Knives, chainsaw, cars, hammers, baseball bats....

If any of those appear likely to be used in anger or recklessly, yes.

> > There's also the "with great power comes great responsibility" angle.
> > I do not want or need the power to maim or kill another human being,
> > or the responsibility that necessarily comes with it.
>
>I take it that you don't drive then.
>
>Seriously. a car is a deadlier weapon than most guns.

I suspect you meant this rhetorically, but actually, I don't.  (My family 
was not in a position, when I was at the appropriate age, to afford the 
insurance premiums for a young driver.)  As I live in a bicycle-friendly 
city, I've never really bothered to learn since then.

As a bike rider, I'm quite aware of the potential deadliness of a ton-plus 
of metal moving at 30+ miles per hour.  Perhaps moreso than many drivers.

> > It's a lot harder to kill someone with a jacket.  Definitely not
> > impossible, but jackets are not primarily designed to apply deadly
> > force.  A firearm is, and I grant them all the respect they are due
> > as a result.
>
>Knives are primarily designed to cut flesh. It's all in how you use a
>tool.

But to claim that all tools are equally fearsome (or inoffensive), 
depending solely on the motive of the operator, is a facile 
generalization.  I am much more likely to be cautious/respectful/afraid of 
a loaded firearm than of a manila folder, if only because the potential 
injury (death or maiming vs. paper cut) is so obviously unequal.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV44bffoJpHq2XMx250001843b@hotmail.com>

Starship Insurance - Theft and Casualty - Freight and Cargo

Freight - Anything of value aboard a ship which belongs to another and is
being transported to a specific destination for a fee.  Insurance here is a
fairly simple matter, the shipper determines if they want to purchase
freight insurance.

Perhaps one or more crewmembers are qualified to write freight insurance
policies using the ships theft and casualty insurer as a kind of
super-carrier.  In addition or instead, the shipper could take out a freight
policy from a third party local insurer.  The premium would be a one time up
front payment for each shipment, and the payout would be an agreed upon
amount.  The ration of premium to payout would depend on risk conditions for
the trip (piracy, hazards, distance of travel.)

Cargo - Anything of value aboard a ship that belongs to the insured that is
not part of ships inventory.  It would be unlikely that cargo would be
covered under the ships theft and casualty policy.  In case of a claim of
theft, it would be too difficult to determine what the cargo really was, and
a problem to determine its value.  As the insurance company, do you payout
the value of the cargo at its loading point? Its value at its ultimate
destination? Its value at the nearest inhabited worls at the time of loss?
Its value at the insurance comapnies regional office at the subsector
capital?  Its value at insurance company headquarters on Capitol?  Insurance
company answer:  whichever is the lowest value. <g>

For these reasons I think you would see cargo insured in the same way as
freight.

Starports would tend to collect insurance agency offices in the same way
jails collect bail bond offices.  Many, especially on smaller worlds, would
probably be independent agents writing policies from a number of companies,
using whichever can best suit their customers needs.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:30:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:30:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020409220408.0118927AB3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002101c1e027$4452ada0$3cb18b90@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> > The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
> > Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
> > million or more - far greater than the examples given above.
>
> The camps didn't just kill Jews. Add in the homosexuals and gypsies and
> you get more than 10 million.

And all the others that found their way into them...

But even so, this, at most, might put the number higher than WWI.  The
Taiping Rebellion and WWII are still way ahead.

It also doesn't help that the camps were intimately associated with WWII,
and not really a distinct phenomenon.

You seem to be fairly consistently a couple of days behind on the list, BTW.
Are you just behind, or is it something to do with the exotic 19th Century
computers you use?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:31:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:31:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name things
References: <20020409184310.F206027A50@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002201c1e027$47ec4f20$3cb18b90@computer>

> From: "Hughes, Michael"
> Star Wars Name =
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born.

It gives some ugly consonant clusters.  Positively Zhodani in some cases.

I'm kind of getting used to the "br" in "Alabr", though.  It's obviously
pronounced like a shivering sound.  This isn't any more difficult than the
Chinese/Vietnamese "ng".  I might add a bit of emphasis to the "la", as it
makes pronouncing the "br" a bit easier.  So:  Al-la-br, rather than
Al-e-<mumble>.

I was just thinking what Doug Berry's first name would be:  Doube.  <Sings:
"Doube-doube-dou" with a Penguin accent.>  Yeah, that works.

Loren's would be a little sad:  Lorwi.  It sounds like he has a lisp.

Alabr Sucha
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ACQ and GT
Message-ID: <3CB4366A.11648.F02634@localhost>

A while back someone (was it you Doug) said they were using ACQ with 
GT. It's occurred to me to try this out too, and I was wondering how 
you dealt with the rule for spending AP for bonuses to skills, 
especially the limit for aiming (no more than 3xskill level). The 
obvious limit for this last would be the lower of the character's skill 
(in GT terms) or weapon Acc, but I was wondering how others dealt with 
this.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 19:09:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 18:09:10 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8D51C82.37945%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20409.174638.4l4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/6/02 8:42 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
>>> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
>>> build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.
>> 
>> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
>> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.
>
> ??
>
> Why permanent magnets.  A rialgun doesn't use magnetic fields in the manner
> of a coil gun.  We just have two parallel rails and the armature
> (projectile).  We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
> in the loop and acting on the armature.

There's a vertical magnetic field involved. Without it, you aren't
going to get nearly as high a velocity. 

Vertical magnetic field + sideways current flow -> forward motion. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 19:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 18:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20409.174638.4l4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D8E360.381D0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 6:46 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>>> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
>>> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.
>> 
>> ??
>> 
>> Why permanent magnets.  A rialgun doesn't use magnetic fields in the manner
>> of a coil gun.  We just have two parallel rails and the armature
>> (projectile).  We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
>> in the loop and acting on the armature.
> 
> There's a vertical magnetic field involved. Without it, you aren't
> going to get nearly as high a velocity.
> 
> Vertical magnetic field + sideways current flow -> forward motion.

I grabbed this of railgun.org:

Why are there no magnets above and below the rails to supplement the induced
field? - 
The induced field in a reasonable railgun is of a field strength on the
order of ~1 Tesla or more. A one Tesla electromagnet would be the size of a
Volkswagon and would probably need to be superconducting. [snip]
Additionally, the power for these extra magnets would either require more
capacitors or would be placed in series with the rails, adding unwanted
resistance and inductance to the circuit.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020410085426.A2419@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 10, 2002 08:54:26 AM
Message-ID: <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > Anyway, off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to
> > make this work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the
> > square-root of the inertial suppression factor.
> 
> If you're directly altering the strength of the interaction, the
> strength should drop off exactly in line with the mass reduction.  The
> square-root factor was when altering the *charge*.

Gah! I really should have taken that high school physics class.
 
> You should likewise reduce the strength of the strong and weak forces.

Okay... so I guess we need to suppose that all these forces get dropped
by the same factor.

> Now, just Planck's constant to deal with :)

Okay... I'm totally clueless, but:
E=hv, where h = planck's constant and v = frequency
(note: i have no idea what i'm taking about)
in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is that
if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we would prefer
that neither of them drop.

> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
> well.

Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
energy level of an electron in an atom?

I've heard that the atomic nucleus is held together by the interplay
between the strong and weak forces, the strong force keeping the
positively charged protons together while the weak force tries to
rip them apart. I suppose that since this idea of taming the quantum
foam should reduce both forces equally, the stability of the
nucleus would be uneffected (the effects of the strong & weak force
reductions should cancel out).

However, I'm not sure how to handle the problem of electrons, which
you mention above. But I'll try to tackle it anyway, so what follows
it totally off the cuff. I'm guessing that the electromagnetic force
keeps electrons attracted to the positively charged atomic nucleus
and repulsed by each other, hence accounting for their movements
(of course, this probably falls apart at some level, but bear with
me). Well, I'm just guessing here, but if their movements are determined
by the repulsive & attractive effects of the same force (electromagnetic),
then reducing that force should have no net effect, as reduction in
repulsion will be perfectly offset by the reduction in attraction.
In short, and I'm no physics major, so correct me if I'm wrong,
once again what I would expect is that these changes cancel out,
resulting in there being no need to change Planck's constant.

Am I totally wrong here? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17936@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Hey lads,

I am offering Mikey Trav (modified MT) up for re-assessment by my gaming
group and was wondering if some nice kind TMLers would test the Traveller
Generation component for me. 

Essentially it is a combo of Mega Trav and Chaosium generation mechanics
(before it was D20ed). It looks a little foreboding at first but the core
rules are only 10 pages long. 

Any comments/suggestions gratefully received. Ludowick, if you're still
TMLing I'd love it if you could have a look as well. Ditto Hyphen. 

If you are interested please contact me off list. 


PBEM:

I am thinking about running a PBEM D&D game for a friend. Does anyone know
of a How To website out there for running PBEM RPG sessions?

Thanks in advance, 

Mikey



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:54:19AM +1200
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net> <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:54:19AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Shakepear didn't have any copyrights on his work - they didn't exist at 
> that time. 

That was indeed part of my point...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
               --Socrates, c.  5th century BC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:24:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:24:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F217LltyKF5Q6JVW8s20001d6e3@hotmail.com>

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

In a flight on Whipsnadian hyperbole, I typed "... the 'brutally pragmatic' 
Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt."

     "Sorry, not *possible*. Not even the third Imperium has *that* kind of 
firepower."


Mr. Erickson,

     Yes, as your other posts illustrated, a planet is a VERY BIG place!  
Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the 
conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.

In another bout of hyperbole, I posted, "... the Ziro Sirka would have, 
could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it glowed."

     "Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
Millions, hundreds of millions."

     But of course.  Would you care to hazard a guess just what sort of 
firepower it would have taken for the ZS to remove Terra as a threat?  How 
many warheads, kinetic strikes, spinal mount hits, and plain old iron bombs 
would it have taken "de-industrialize" Terra?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:26:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:26:46 2002
Subject: [TML] ACQ and GT
In-Reply-To: <3CB4366A.11648.F02634@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409191152.009ffe70@mindspring.com>

At 12:56 PM 4/10/02 +1200, you wrote:
>A while back someone (was it you Doug) said they were using ACQ with
>GT. It's occurred to me to try this out too, and I was wondering how
>you dealt with the rule for spending AP for bonuses to skills,
>especially the limit for aiming (no more than 3xskill level). The
>obvious limit for this last would be the lower of the character's skill
>(in GT terms) or weapon Acc, but I was wondering how others dealt with
>this.

Wasn't me.. and I can't remember who did it.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204100230.DSP00729@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
>Sounds cool. What sort of groups do you get with it?
>

1/4 MOA.  But I have to do my work.  This is also where I 
stopped shooting from a bench, and did all of my work in the 
prone using either sling or bipod.  Laying on the ground is 
where this sort of rifle would be used, so I shot from the 
ground.

I get an acceptable score on the Rifle Ten, which is probably 
a more practical test of rifle skills, but you could probably 
shoot the same with an iron-sighted M1 Garand or even an M-
16.  Most practical rifle tests do not involve long range 
shooting, and I view most "long range" marksmanship courses 
of fire as too artificial to really measure much.  Aside from 
that, you can "practice" the test itself.

Maybe what we should all do is practice for the Kenyathalon, 
which is probably a fine test of field skill with a rifle.

I gave the rifle to the local SWAT team.  I think they're 
going to build a memorial to me.  Not the Simrad, however. 
But, it's been over a year now, and I'm reworking another 
Remington, but this time in .300 Win Mag.  In this case, 
however, I plan on sticking to 6x scopes, and shoot from my 
hind legs.

Why give it away?  Well, if you're getting a divorce, it pays 
not to have any firearms around, even if you've never made a 
threat.  The opposing lawyer is ready to make something out 
of it, even the mere presence, especially here in the 
People's Republic of Maryland.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [Fwd: FYI: Claim for Dentus/Regina]
Message-ID: <3CB3A651.5FE32F71@premier.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------1C1D34570AB70063DD2A1374
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Here's a Landgrab claim from a JTAS subscriber:



-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.
--------------1C1D34570AB70063DD2A1374
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Return-Path: <itsjustabunny@netzero.net>
Received: from mail7.wlv.netzero.net (mail7.wlv.netzero.net [209.247.163.57])
	by premier1.premier.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id g3A2a2903418
	for <wombat@premier.net>; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 21:36:02 -0500 (CDT)
Received: (qmail 19488 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2002 02:34:21 -0000
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Message-ID: <001801c1e038$d60189e0$7856f4d1@003905747>
From: "Videll" <itsjustabunny@netzero.net>
To: <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: FYI: Claim for Dentus/Regina
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 22:38:41 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1E017.4C59AEA0"
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

FYI. Thanks, Greg.

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Videll=20
To: landgrab@downport.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 10:20 PM
Subject: Claim for Dentus/Regina


I'd like to claim Dentus/Regina as part of the 'land grab' and ask to =
have the information I develop be hosted at Downport.com. Please let me =
know what additional information you require. Thanks a lot, Greg Videll.

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1E017.4C59AEA0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>FYI. Thanks, Greg.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:itsjustabunny@netzero.net"=20
title=3Ditsjustabunny@netzero.net>Videll</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:landgrab@downport.com"=20
title=3Dlandgrab@downport.com>landgrab@downport.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 09, 2002 10:20 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Claim for Dentus/Regina</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'd like to claim Dentus/Regina as part =
of the=20
'land grab' and ask to have the information I develop be hosted at =
Downport.com.=20
Please let me know what additional information you require. Thanks a =
lot, Greg=20
Videll.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1E017.4C59AEA0--



--------------1C1D34570AB70063DD2A1374--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:44:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:44:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20409.114950.6a1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409223004.02132f28@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:49 PM 4/9/2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>You are forgetting that with nuclear dampers, you can clean up the
>radioactive contamination *easily*. and unless truly amazing numbers of
>weapons are used, the actual *blast* damage will easily disappear on
>something as big as a planet.

This is a good point.  In fact, it's quite possible that the Imperial Corps 
of Engineers (or whatever the Traveller TL-15 equivalent of the present-day 
Army Corps of Engineers) does civil engineering and terraforming with 
nuclear weapons and meson artillery.  A starship armed with a large meson 
gun and a variety of nuclear missiles in bays, and supported by 
decontamination ships equipped with powerful nuclear dampers could - for 
example - clear and level an area of solid rock for a starport or carve out 
a deep water harbor on a coastline in a matter of hours, or dig a sea-level 
canal across Central America in a matter of days (and most of these times 
would be for detail work and decontamination).

>Which reminds me. Some day I need to sit down and try to figure out what 
>would be required to produce a "burned off" world such as appears in some 
>of Norton's books.

While I'm not familiar with Norton's "burned off" worlds (I don't tend to 
read Norton), the easiest way to completely clobber a planet with Traveller 
technology is to drop a few big rocks on it.  With Traveller maneuver 
drives, it should be relatively easy to nudge a number of asteroids in the 
100,000dton or bigger class into an intercept trajectory with a planet, and 
that should be all that's needed.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <000501c1df81$7b919c00$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20409.193923.3g6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>      "While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I
>> don't see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the
>> trick is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it."
>>
>>      Yes, seeding the star with enough tungsten and aiming correctly will
>> take time.  Perhaps the Darrians use multiple probes to increase their
>> chances?
>
> That is a pretty reasonable idea.  I figure they would be jumping in with
> a fleet, not just a squadron.  They probably have a couple of "probe" ships
> and multiple ships that can deliver the meson trigger.
>
> Plus, I also figure they would be dependent on relative surprise.  If they
> face a coordinated defense that is expecting them, they are probably best
> advised to try a different system in a week or so.

Why? 

They can jump in *anywhere* in the system that's outside the *stellar*
100D limit.

Say the two "beam" ships jump in roughly 120 degrees "ahead" and
"behind" the mainworld in it's orbit. And the "probe" ship jumps in
somewhere well to sunward of the mainworld.

Launch the probe, Fire the beams after it reaches the star. Jump out
after a few hours. 

Short of sheer luck, the system defense forces won't get within light
*minutes* of any of the Darrian ships.

That's what makes it such a scary weapon. You have to defend the entire
*system*, not just the planets. And you *can't*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:28 PM 4/9/2002, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
>Team finds a "disk" that contains the secret information. but it is not 
>compatible with what they have on the ship. Now how do they read the 
>information with out destroying the contents.

Good scenario hook.

IMTU, there are Imperial standards for data storage and media, mainly 
promulgated by the Scout Service.  This is not a standard in the sense that 
all equipment is required by law to support it, but rather a de-facto 
standard in the sense that the IISS X-boat system uses a specific set of 
formats to transfer messages.

It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the 
Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of 
pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding 
and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of 
languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate, 
lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications 
protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of 
getting messages into and out of the system.

Couple this with standards (IMTU published by the Travelers' Aid Society) 
for ship-to-ship and ship-to-planet communications (again via text, image, 
audio, video, and holo) and exchange of navigational data of various types, 
and you have a fairly robust infrastructure for communicating - should you 
desire to do so.

The net result should be similar to the modern Internet - any computer 
manufacturer who hopes to have any significant market share at all ensures 
that their equipment can read and write the standard media and formats, and 
can speak the standard protocols.  This doesn't prevent the manufacturers 
from building machines that also support proprietary encoding and 
formats.  However, if you're stuck with a data chip in one of those 
formats, your best bet is to try to find the machine that wrote it, and 
copy the data to a standard format.

In general, things Just Work, unless I (as referee) have a plot reason that 
they don't.  When they don't, When things do Just Work, no Computer skill 
is needed to read a file off of a data cartridge, or send an email message 
via X-boat.  Computer skill covers the ability to figure out what is wrong 
when things don't Just Work, and either write a program to fix the problem 
(or find a tool or other work around to the problem).  I would tend to say 
things like "you've got an Imperial standard data chip here, and on it is 
..." or "This data cartridge is proprietary to a LSP Model 11MP system - 
you need to find one of those to read what's on it.".


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:21:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:21:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:28 PM 4/9/2002, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
>Team finds a "disk" that contains the secret information. but it is not 
>compatible with what they have on the ship. Now how do they read the 
>information with out destroying the contents.

Good scenario hook.

IMTU, there are Imperial standards for data storage and media, mainly 
promulgated by the Scout Service.  This is not a standard in the sense that 
all equipment is required by law to support it, but rather a de-facto 
standard in the sense that the IISS X-boat system uses a specific set of 
formats to transfer messages.

It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the 
Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of 
pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding 
and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of 
languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate, 
lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications 
protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of 
getting messages into and out of the system.

Couple this with standards (IMTU published by the Travelers' Aid Society) 
for ship-to-ship and ship-to-planet communications (again via text, image, 
audio, video, and holo) and exchange of navigational data of various types, 
and you have a fairly robust infrastructure for communicating - should you 
desire to do so.

The net result should be similar to the modern Internet - any computer 
manufacturer who hopes to have any significant market share at all ensures 
that their equipment can read and write the standard media and formats, and 
can speak the standard protocols.  This doesn't prevent the manufacturers 
from building machines that also support proprietary encoding and 
formats.  However, if you're stuck with a data chip in one of those 
formats, your best bet is to try to find the machine that wrote it, and 
copy the data to a standard format.

In general, things Just Work, unless I (as referee) have a plot reason that 
they don't.  When they don't, When things do Just Work, no Computer skill 
is needed to read a file off of a data cartridge, or send an email message 
via X-boat.  Computer skill covers the ability to figure out what is wrong 
when things don't Just Work, and either write a program to fix the problem 
(or find a tool or other work around to the problem).  I would tend to say 
things like "you've got an Imperial standard data chip here, and on it is 
..." or "This data cartridge is proprietary to a LSP Model 11MP system - 
you need to find one of those to read what's on it.".


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <14d.c0033de.29e50df4@aol.com>

--part1_14d.c0033de.29e50df4_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
>for first name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
>town where you were born. 
>

   Okay, I'm game. Let's see...

   Why yumpin' yimminy, looks like I'm Kenmu Ersan :)

  -Ken-


--part1_14d.c0033de.29e50df4_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
<BR>&gt;for first name
<BR>&gt; 
<BR>&gt; First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
<BR>&gt;town where you were born. 
<BR>&gt;
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Okay, I'm game. Let's see...
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Why yumpin' yimminy, looks like I'm Kenmu Ersan :)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_14d.c0033de.29e50df4_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 22:10:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Tue Apr  9 21:10:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>

> Star Wars Name =
>
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born.

Hmm..  Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
Using your equation, I'd be:  Shasr Baden

But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

Which for me yields:  Anemet Slabar
I dunno, they're both kinda cool.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Your lack of Pants disturbs me
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 22:19:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr  9 21:19:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <20020410.001437.-391371.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Star Wars Name =
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first 
> name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town 
> where you were born. 

Perho Yaneu?

(yuck!)


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 22:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr  9 21:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8d974f770c0@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:08 PM +1200 4/9/02, Frank Pitt wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote :
>>  While I haven't followed the thread far enough to
>>  follow all the  issues, I think there is a point
>>  to be made here.  One can't just assume insurance
>>  company will force any security measure you can
>>  think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be
>>  unpopular and, unless the savings in costs is
>>  _significant_, there  won't be enough
>>  of a change in premiums to compensate.
>
>The insurance comany won't change it's premiums.
>
>There will just be a clause in the contract, similar to the one
>that exists with most vehicle insurance now, that if your vehicle
>was not warranted at the time of the accident, or it was being
>driven by an unlicensed driver, they won't pay out.
>
>They won't even bother inspecting (or telling you about it) until
>_after_ you make the claim. Then they will ask you for your
>warrant and masters ticket, and if you can't produce them they
>will refuse to pay out.


But we are talking about security measure that are intrusive enough 
that the are a hassle to the day to day operation of a ship.  Some 
people are going to know about them.  Unless they are important 
enough to make a _significant_ change in costs, another company will 
be able to draw at least some customers away buy not having such 
intrusive requirements.

>The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
>required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
>may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
>starport will do it (for important safety and financial reasons,
>would you want an unwarranted vehicle approaching an extremely
>expensve space station?), there won't be any real choice except
>for the captains to take the risk of not doing it and not go to
>the better starports

The presumption is that every insurance company will have such 
requirements.  That requires that you show that such requirements 
make a significant difference in insurance costs.  Otherwise 
insurance companies have no reason to push unpopular requirements.

However, if you can show that such requirements are needed to keep 
theft down to a reasonable level, then you don't need to invoke 
insurance companies requiring it.

In the end, invoking insurance companies is not a way of justifying 
regulations that don't have other basis.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:01:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:01:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409141022.A18068@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410003144.027e33e0@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:10 PM 4/9/02 -0600, you wrote:
>But that doesn't matter.  Free software is not about sticking it to
>Bill Gates; it's about free software.  Gaming is not about sticking to
>to gaming companies (they're generally good people); it's about
>gaming.

Okay.  But my original point that you were responding to was that there are 
unintended consequences regardless of original motives.  I want to make 
sure people who may not be aware of those consequences are informed.

> > I don't know if your "But that is...your problem" remark was
> > intended to sound quite as callous as it came across to me in print,
> > but that's just me, and as you say that's my problem.
>
>I didn't mean it to sound callous, more as a statement of fact.

Okay.  From reading your various emails, I am quite sure you're a nice 
person.  I guess it still sounds a bit callous to me, although it is 
motivated from a concern for the general welfare of all humans everywhere, 
which is certainly not callous.  It is also clear you've spent more than a 
casual amount of time in life pondering such things and you're determined 
not to be a cruel person or any such thing.  I respect you, or anyone else 
who takes a similar position, for taking that position.

I just don't want the script kiddie types piling on the bandwagon.  Or the 
hordes of people who do something because "it's cool".

Respectable Middle-Aged Lady:  "Young man, what are you rebelling against?"
Brando's character:  "Whattaya got?"

But again, people we know (even if only through this mailing list) will be 
directly hurt by the success of competing products.  And the difference is 
those people do this for a living and the competing product at issue would 
be done for fun as a hobby by people with deeper pockets.  Which side of 
that choice is taken by Socrates or Aristotle is only of intellectual 
interest to me.  I just ask myself if that's the result I want.


>Not that I'd directly compete with any of the above.  I write
>software, not supplements.  And yes, my hope is for my GPLed
>Traveller-compatible software to enable a lot of other programmers to
>write more Traveller-compatible software.  And it doesn't bother me
>that this will make it more difficult for others to profit from
>proprietary Traveller-compatible software.  Why should it, any more
>than it bothers Stephen King that he's made it more difficult for
>other to profit from horror novels?

Huh?  I was unaware of your efforts in this area, and of travlib.  Will 
wield the legendary Sword of Google and get to work on that once email is 
caught up, the cats are fed, and I've had a night's sleep.  Please feel 
free to beat me repeatedly around the head and shoulder area with a 
badminton racquet until I follow up on that if it slips.  :->

Why should it bother Stephen King?  Because he should have an ounce of 
sympathy for all the other people out there who are his sisters and 
brothers in spirit: they are compelled to write and be read by others.  Why 
should he have an ounce of sympathy for anyone, especially strangers?  No 
special reason.  It isn't the law, I don't think he will go to heaven or 
hell based on that or anything.  I just think he should.

Why should it bother you?  That's different.  You aren't personally 
dominating an industry so much that other people are being squeezed 
out.  It shouldn't bother you in the least.

I'm not trying to quash all self publishers, hobby publishers, or 
open-source creation of anything.  I'm not trying to call it unethical.  My 
message is that there will be unintended consequences that are undoable if 
open source RPG design really takes off.  And you can't go back home 
again.  People should go ahead and make their own decisions.  Adult, 
responsible, informed decisions.

I'd love to see open source game design of different kinds of games become 
a healthy and thriving activity.  I'd also love to see the people who do 
good work, but can only do so when they are able to devote full time 
attention to it, be healthy and thriving.  There is the forest.  Somewhere 
on its other side is a happy meadow where both things are happening.  There 
are many paths through the forest, and many of those paths go somewhere 
else besides that happy meadow.  As one of my old characters (a really 
reprehensible character) used to say, "Ah'll draw us a map."  That is, I'd 
_like_ to have a map before entering that forest.

--Laning
Q:  What's the best way to make a small fortune in the wargaming industry?
A:  Start with a large one.
      -An old but true saw.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:56 PM 4/9/02 -0600, you wrote:
> > We really should pay someone like Loren or Doug a LOT more money for
> > their work.
>
>Well, it's all a matter of what the market will bear.  Software pays
>better because there's more demand.  RPGs pay worse because there's
>not as much.

The above statement tends to be true but the real world is not as simple 
nor as true as that.  It only becomes a matter of what the market will bear 
when the market is huge and liquid and the product is 'commoditized' as 
they call it.  And even then are problems with preventing marketplace 
manipulation.  I do not think that our free market system is truly free nor 
is it perfectly efficient.  Prices for lots of things fluctuate wildly due 
to [long string of complex and often silly reasons] rather than any 
fundamental economic cause.  I do not believe in placing blind faith in our 
so-called capitalism (which isn't) any more than I would place blind faith 
in the former Soviet so-called communism (which wasn't).  Now that was some 
good music (Blind Faith, that is).


> > What I would be willing to pay for is a more well-thought out
> > game.
>
>That's part of the value add one gets with a professional editor.
>Most people cannot properly edit their own work.  I wonder if it might
>not be possible for there to be money in taking freely-available work
>and compiling it onto one large work.  Slap a compilation copyright
>over the whole thing (to prevent others from just grabbing it up), but
>the individual pieces are still free for anyone.

There's probably some money, but even less than in being a line editor 
now.  It would certainly be a useful contribution.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:12:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>
References: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
 <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
 <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl used the sig:
>Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
>food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
>parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
>they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
>                --Socrates, c.  5th century BC

One of several great sigs you employ, Mister Robert Uhl.  :->

Socrates really didn't much like people who he couldn't keep under his 
thumb, did he?  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:15:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:15:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <20020410051456.C94E127ABE@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/10/02 at 02:08 PM,  "Shane Slamet" <s.slamet@bom.gov.au> said:

>> Star Wars Name =
>>
>> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>>
>> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
>> were born.

>Hmm..  Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
>Using your equation, I'd be:  Shasr Baden

>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name First 3
>letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

>Which for me yields:  Anemet Slabar
>I dunno, they're both kinda cool.

Either way you have the same number of letters in every name. How
about...

First name: The first 1d6 letters of your first name + the first 1d6
letters of your last name.

Last name: The first 1d6 leters of your mother's maiden name + the
first 1d6 letter of the city where you were born.

Jamere Rit
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:26:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:26:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204092104.DSD06042@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011514.027e7ec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 05:04 PM 4/9/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Leonard Erickson asks
> >
> >"the rifle"?
>
>Remington 700 Police DM, in .308. (Comes with HS Precision
>stock with integral aluminum bedding block). Action
>reworked/firing pin replaced with titanium pin, barrel
>replaced with heavy contour Douglas Premium Match barrel,
>Timney trigger, Leupold Mark V M3 10x scope with mil-dot
>reticle, NEAR one-piece scope base optimized to get the most
>elevation adjustement out of the scope, Vortex flash
>suppressor, bipod, Simrad KN-250 GEN III night vision with
>adapter to fit over Leupold Mark V.
>
>Some were frightened just by seeing it, some by going to the
>range with me and *seeing* it.

So we're talking about people who are comfortable enough to go shooting at 
a rifle range, but want to politely form a covert vigilante gang to stop 
you from being around their place of work if you have a really nice target 
rifle.  People call me weird, but I think "people" need to look in the 
mirror sometimes.

--Laning
"A rifle is only a tool. It's a hard heart that kills." -Gunnery Sergeant 
Hartman in 'Full Metal Jacket' by Gustav Hasford, Michael Herr, and Stanley 
Kubrick


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:27:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:27:22 2002
Subject: [TML] When too much time occurs...
Message-ID: <3CB3CC38.F01EE8A9@mail.cswnet.com>

Dig out the Monopoly game...
...locate Vilani by Lonnie:

http://tribble.dreamhost.com/vilani.html

and convert those street names to vilani!!!

Baltic Avenue---Barikune Barik
Conneticut Avenue---Kaanerikuru Nekaan
Atlantic Avenue---Arukanirikune Rukanir
Boardwalk---Buriduurkibu 
[this one I fudged-stuck an "I" in for the last name"
Luxury Tax---Ukukashuriikasharu Kukashurii
Free Parking---Biriiginikira Mibirii
B&O Railroad---Baaduurukar Ibi&aa

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:34:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:34:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <14d.c0033de.29e50df4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEONGFAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Urk

Johlo Nornew no like

Grunt


> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
>for first name 
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
>town where you were born. 
> 

  Okay, I'm game. Let's see... 

  Why yumpin' yimminy, looks like I'm Kenmu Ersan :) 

 -Ken- 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:44:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:44:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:12:37AM -0400
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409234307.A19761@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:12:37AM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> The above statement tends to be true but the real world is not as simple 
> nor as true as that.

What I mean is that man, viewed as an organism, seems not to value RPG
line editors as highly as information architects (but, e.g., higher
than garbagemen).  That valuation has no moral meaning, of course.
It's just that there aren't enough people willing to pay enough to pay
line editors what IT people get.  Would _you_ pay $130 per supplement?

> I do not think that our free market system is truly free nor is it
> perfectly efficient.

Oh, it's certainly not free, which fact leads to numerous injustices
and inefficiencies.  But it's still a market.  _Every_ economy is a
market, no matter how it may try to disguise the fact.

> There's probably some money, but even less than in being a line editor 
> now.  It would certainly be a useful contribution.

Well, it's commonly accepted (among those who think about these
things) that the primary service provided by content providers is
filtering of the dregs.  The Web allowed every man to be a publisher.
And a million million screaming <blink> tags were born.

Filtering of the 5.99 billion morons in the world is an editor's job,
one that most do quite admirably.  Supporting that is a useful thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
           --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:14:40AM -0400
References: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost> <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net> <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost> <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409234739.B19761@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:14:40AM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> One of several great sigs you employ, Mister Robert Uhl.  :->

Thanks for the compliment.  I've rather a large amount of them, to
tell the truth.  I've 264, which are randomly assigned by a Perl
script attached to a named pipe.  Many, I'm afraid, are longer than
the so-called McQ limit (4 lines), but I don't particularly care; it's
a relic of a bygone era.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
This is why they complain--they don't _want_ to have brains.  Those lead
to thoughts, and thoughts cause only suffering.  Thus, by asking them to
think, you are inflicting the torments of the damned on the previously
blissfully ignorant.        --John Rowat, in alt.tech-support.recovery

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:54:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:54:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <200204092132.DSF01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410014708.027e3070@pop.wizard.net>

John T Kwon quoting and responding to Sam D:
> >I think most Marines can hit a torso sized target at 500
> >yards about 100% of the time.
>
>Marines yes, Army infantry, no way.  And that assumes that
>your enemy is standing in the open.  Most experienced
>soldiers go into the prone.  Once you're in the prone, the
>bolt action in the hands of a sniper has the advantage,
>because you can hit grapefruit-sized targets very reliably at
>300 to 400 yards, and most of the time at 500.  Take those
>same Marines and try to have them hit the grapefruit at 500.
>There's probably a Distinguished Marksman in there, isn't
>there?
I couldn't agree more.  I am a Marine who could hit consistently score 5s 
at 500 yards with iron sights, but getting that little grapefruit-sized 
circle is a much bigger challenge.  If I had stayed in the Corps, I think I 
would have continued improving at hitting those bullseyes but it would have 
taken some more years.  And then presbyopia and astigmatism afflicted my 
vision somewhat starting in my mid- to late-30s.  It would have taken years 
to get pretty damned good (for someone who isn't a sniper) and then there 
would have been a small window of quality before declining vision screwed 
that up.  Although it's entirely possible that most of my vision problems 
are related to going into computers during my 30s and spending _way_ too 
much time in front of monitors.



>The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my
>rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these,
>and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get
>him without losing half the team or more."

Apparently he forgot the correct tactical employment of smoke 
grenades.  And maybe his boys don't have those armored gunshields to hide 
behind.  Or if it really comes down to it, use a .50 cal or 20 mm on an APC 
belonging to a nearby Army or Marine unit.  Although I always wondered 
about using wire-guided ATGMs with a standoff spike for those kinds of 
guys, heh.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:56:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <20020409.225614.-2687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 00:14:54 -0500 "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
writes:
>
> 
> Either way you have the same number of letters in every name. How
> about...
> 
> First name: The first 1d6 letters of your first name + the first 1d6
> letters of your last name.
> 
> Last name: The first 1d6 leters of your mother's maiden name + the
> first 1d6 letter of the city where you were born.
> 
> Jamere Rit
> -- 

Oh, I like the options. though my original - Barst Cotor is cool.
Let's see - 5,3,4,1 - Ooops, there's only four letters in my first name.

= Barista Corrt

Not bad

Barst Cotor - Barbarian
Barista Corrt - Other - Barmaid


Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:02:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:02:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <20020410.001437.-391371.2.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204100809390.28175-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

> Star Wars Name =
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first 
> name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town 
> where you were born. 

Mikpa Auhel.

Hilarious...

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410003144.027e33e0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:02:24AM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020409141022.A18068@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020410003144.027e33e0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020410001141.C19761@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:02:24AM -0400, laning wrote:
>
> From reading your various emails, I am quite sure you're a nice
> person.

I'd like to think so, but I've no idea.  Can any man judge himself?

> I just don't want the script kiddie types piling on the bandwagon.  Or the 
> hordes of people who do something because "it's cool".

I'll agree there.  In many ways, popularity is the bane of any set of
ideas.  Witness the twits in computers, the twits in politics, the
twits in religion &c.  Computers, politics and religon are not
inherently twit-ful, but they are plagued by twits nonetheless.

> Huh?  I was unaware of your efforts in this area, and of travlib.

Travlib is a GPLed library intended to, eventually, model the entire
spectrum of the Traveller universe, from galxies to characters.  Right
now, it represents astronomical things only (galaxies, sectors,
subsectors, systems, stars, planets, belts and moons).  It's written
in C, using the gtk+ toolkit for object orientation, with Scheme
bindings using guile to enable easy scripting.

I'm currently working on two projects.  The first is the addition of
First In generation rules, with the code written in Scheme (which I
feel is uniquely suited to this sort of thing); eventually I will be
implementing CT rules as well, although internal data representation
will always be in GT terms, which are for most cases more granular.
The second project is travtrack, a GNOME application which will enable
the user to edit said data (and thus track his Traveller campaigns,
hence the name).  I've got a galaxy browser which is almost
functional...

The site is <http://travtrack.sf.net/>.  It's not over-nice, mostly
because there's not a whole lot to show yet.  My beta version of
travlib is done; travtrack is very much a work-in-progress.  The
application which comes with travlib is called travshell: it is a
Guile interpreter with travlib linked in by default.  This means that
you can write:

(define galaxy (trav-galaxy-new))
(trav-mapobject-set-name galaxy "My First Galaxy")
(define sector (trav-sector-new))
(trav-mapobject-set-name sector "A Beginner Sector")
(trav-mapobject-add-child galaxy sector)

And things like that.  Right now the library using an XML-like schema
for printing data to a file and reading it back, but I'm planning on a
Scheme special forms interface, so that one might write:

(trav-galaxy
#:name "My First Galaxy"
#:comments "The first galaxy I ever created"
  (trav-sector  #:name "A Beginner Sector")
  (trav-sector #:name "Another One"
    (trav-subsector)
    (trav-subsector)))

And so on.  As someone has said, XML is S-expressions with a painful
syntax.  But that will be a long while from now.

> Why should it bother Stephen King?  Because he should have an ounce
> of sympathy for all the other people out there who are his sisters
> and brothers in spirit: they are compelled to write and be read by
> others.

What I mean is that he has raised the standards of his profession
(personally, I loathe him and his work, but his was an example which
leapt to mind); the sympathy he should have for others less able than
he--and who have been harmed because the bar has so been raised--is
much the same sympathy that any of us has for any failure.  Sympathy,
yes.  Aid, certainly.  But no-one would ever say I write good horror
(not that I wish too): that's just a fact of life, in roughly the same
way that I will never win a race.

> Why should it bother you?  That's different.  You aren't personally 
> dominating an industry so much that other people are being squeezed 
> out.  It shouldn't bother you in the least.

Well, open source enables that sort of domination.  Linux Torvalds
wrote an OS.  Tanenbaum no longer, I think, sells many copies of
Minix.  Even the BSD projects are being relegated to the status of
footnote to history (unfairly, in many ways, but in just as many ways
it's their own fault).  It's deuced difficult to compete against free
software.  And by free I don't mean price; I mean freedom.

Regarding those who are threatened thereby, I can only say that I
don't make my living in software.  I'm a Unix system administrator; I
program in my free time.  I cannot do what I like (partially because
what I like includes freeing the product).  When I was younger I spit
chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it
sometime).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Interestingly, most Unix utilities have a command line option which will
cause the system to rip the user's legs off and beat them to death with
the soggy ends.  This is often the default behaviour.    --Bruce Murphy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F164o8C7wyfwjHNuQuN000048cd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410020404.027d89a0@pop.wizard.net>

At 08:59 PM 4/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off some 
>M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and issuing them at 
>the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max 500 yards?) and 
>sniper (800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the guy with the M14 the 
>"designated marksman" or something like that.  The guy who wrote the 
>article I read did not like the idea, because of the the difficulties 
>associated with the accurized M14s as stated above and standardization 
>issues, but from what I understand these were deployed to Afghanistan so 
>we should be getting reports soon.

Glad to hear we're doing that.  It's basically the latest variation on 
something we've at least theoretically been doing for many decades.  Each 
four-man fire team during my time in had one guy designated as the 'sniper' 
or 'marksman' or something.  Can't remember the proper term with any 
certainty.  The problem with that (during my time in) was that the position 
usually had more to do with seniority than marksmanship ability.

Ever since at least WW1, our tactical commanders have tried to concentrate 
a small unit of their best shooters to be available for various 
tasks.  Full-blown official snipers are scarce at even the regiment 
level.  So regiments, battalions, companies, and even platoons have tried 
to single out their most skilled guys for use in this regard.  There have 
been various times when these tactical efforts became a formal part of 
official TO&Es and doctrine.  Other times they were officially disapproved 
and commanding officers had to be more or less surreptitious and subversive 
to do this.  This long-term tendency is probably partly influenced by our 
old role (inherited directly from the British Royal Marines, so it goes 
back to more than two centuries) of providing snipers in the rigging aboard 
sailing ships.

These efforts by tactical commanders have often been mingled with efforts 
to create their own private "Life Guards" unit, if you will, and a recon 
capability.  Commanders like to have a reserve of best-quality troops to 
influence the battle with.  A major conflict within the Marine Corps since 
it is a fundamental axiom of our existence that all Marines are elite and 
none are more elite than others.  It was the major argument against the 
Marine Raider battalions (which were eliminated) and against the Force 
Recon battalions (which were eliminated or nearly so a dozen times in fifty 
years), and it doesn't look to be going away although Force Recon seems to 
be in pretty good health these days.  I have no problem with it and think 
it is a good thing.  I never noticed other Marines getting their feelings 
hurt over it either.  It seems to me more of a theological debate between 
passionate followers of different faiths than anything else.  Or possibly a 
fear that the competition among officers to get their "ticket punched" by 
an assignment to Force Recon was just too exclusive a competition.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:22:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:22:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F36GB9wIWXLU9778dvM000038ae@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022011.027e0130@pop.wizard.net>

At 09:18 PM 4/9/02 +0000, Sam D wrote:
 >>>
Did you guys see that a female teenage Marine won the national matches 
(with an M16) a few years ago?
<<<

OORAH!!


>The .223 is a fairly accurate round, on par with most cartridges.  The 308 
>is theoretically more accurate.  It is certainly more resistant to the 
>wind.  But as far as semi-auto platforms, there is nothing better than 
>Stoner's design.  Put a 308 in an M16 platform, like the AR-10 or SR-25, 
>and you get outstanding accuracy.

I've wondered for a long time about getting an AR-15 or similar chambered 
for .308.  How does it perform on full auto?  (I imagine it has issues with 
the barrel overheating more than a heavier weapon would.)  Rapid semi?  Is 
there even such an animal sold commercially?

Not that I have any actual use for such a thing.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D89BAB.38054%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408135946.02824dd0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>

At 01:22 PM 4/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
>It should be noted that analysis of casualties in the Vietnam war showed the
>5.56x45mm to be 11% more likely to produce a casualty (lethal) than
>7.62x51mm.  Of course the NVA and VC may have just dragged off all the
>bodies with 7.62 holes in them to confise us poor Americans.

Colt was probably paying them a bounty for the corpses with the big bullets 
in them.  Damned megacorps!


> > Including poorer
> > accuracy.
>
>What?!  The M-16 has consistently proved to have a smaller MOA than the M-14
>since adoption and up to the present day.

I am not equipped to wage a war of statistical analyses, and will 
abandon.  Even surrender, if I must.  But let the record show that I  trust 
statistical studies and proving grounds testing only so far.  Anecdotal 
evidence from actual field users of my acquaintance is not convincing (to 
me) for either side of the argument.

I also remind everyone that all other things (like velocity and sectional 
density) being equal, the more massive bullet will penetrate cover better 
and that most troops you're shooting at will seek cover if they're not 
already using it.  Big bullets still have their advantages.

And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting 
results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting 
dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or 
.308?  Or something else?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:39:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:39:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17936@r1clex01.cbr.defe
 nce.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410023924.027e4ad0@pop.wizard.net>

At 10:46 AM 4/10/02 +1000, Mikey (Michael Hughes) wrote:
>PBEM:
>
>I am thinking about running a PBEM D&D game for a friend. Does anyone know
>of a How To website out there for running PBEM RPG sessions?

I was thinking there's a need for the same thing.  Or at least will soon be 
a need.  Perhaps interested parties should form a new mailing list, and 
person or persons on that list be appointed to cull together an FAQ for WWW 
posting?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starship Insurance
In-Reply-To: <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410025025.027e56d0@pop.wizard.net>

After posting information of good pragmatic value to referees, Bill Scheets 
said:

>More on insurance later, if there is sufficient interest.

Keep up the good work!  The faint whirring sound you just heard was my hard 
drive as I saved your full post.

And yes, that's how I remember it working with seat belts.  Then safety 
harnesses.  Probably air bags before not much longer.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 01:10:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 00:10:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20409.111435.4V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410025314.02b56df0@pop.wizard.net>

Leonard says, regarding nuclear warfare:
>If they have reason to *expect* that sort of thing?
>
>A *lot*. Especially given that once nuclear damper tech is available,
>decontamination is a matter of raising the decay rate of the fallout
>and other contaminated material as high as you can without generating
>more heat than you want to deal with.
>
>A planet is a *big* place.
>
>There's also the fact that if you do it to them, you'd better expect
>them to return the favor.

Let us not forget that if the planet is an industrialized world, then most 
of the people and other interesting targets will have conveniently 
clustered themselves together in cities or military bases.  Five or ten 
thousand warheads with 50- to 100-megaton yield that reach their urban, 
suburban, and unhardened military targets will pretty much take that planet 
out of the battle for at least one generation.  Of course, their 
spacefaring navy will not be impacted by this immediately.  And, as you 
say, they'll be looking to return the favor.  I'm just picking random 
numbers, but numbers very easily within the capability of the Ziru Sirka or 
any of the Imperiums.

Sure, there will still remain plenty of places on the planetary surfaces 
that are fairly livable.  But the good harbors, river junctions, mountain 
passes, and natural resource sites will tend to be pretty 
unlivable.  Infrastructure and manufacturing capabilities will be all but 
destroyed, and the people to repair and rebuild will mostly be dead.

If everyone gets a chance to hide in good bunkers first, at least you can 
have huge chunks of population survive the immediate attack.  They'll still 
have to deal with the disabled infrastructure, which will lead to a lot of 
starvation.  Most of the facilities needed to repair and rebuild will still 
be destroyed.

I have too vague an image of how canonical nuclear dampers will precisely 
behave to really describe all how they will help, and what will be beyond 
their help.  It probably varies quite a bit from one referee's TU to 
another's.  I'd guess some referees only have them work if they're focused 
on ground zero at the time of the explosion, while others let you do 
whatever kind of prevention and clean up sounds theoretically within the 
limits of such a technology.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 01:18:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 00:18:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410031600.02c08230@pop.wizard.net>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link:
>I have been making notes on a run for my
>upcoming rebirth Traveller game. Team finds a "disk" that contains the
>secret information. but it is not compatible with what they have on the
>ship. Now how do they read the information with out destroying the
>contents.


I suggest referring to Web pages for professional data recovery 
companies.  Like On Track Data Recovery.
www.ontrack.com but beware of relatively heavy graphics and java scripting.

Western Digital's Web site (mostly known as a hard drive maker) is where I 
usually go to get a bunch of hyperlinks to data recovery firms when I need 
to refer people.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 01:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 00:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20409.224111.2G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Derek Wildstar writes:
>> At 03:46 PM 4/8/2002, Sam Draper wrote:
>>>I have read in tests that little darts at high velocities are
>>>remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do little
>>>tissue damage.
>> 
>>  From what I recall reading, the 60's era Army tests with
>> high-velocity flechettes in the SPIW program.  This weapon was
>> proposed by AAI, and fired 65 gram steel flechette at high velocity
>> (about 4800fps).
>
> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).
> A 65 gram projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.

65 grams is about 2.3 *ounces*. Ouch.

4800 fps = ~1460 m/s. 

Yeek! That's almost 70 kiloJoules muzzle energy! 

Yeah, that'd make folks go splat.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041108.027fb7c0@pop.wizard.net>

>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

That makes me Ingaty Pollan.  Sounds Hungarian or something.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] News from Delphi
Message-ID: <LAW2-F147TrBoe2U8QV000064a3@hotmail.com>

Hi,

I was wondering how is the Delphi history project going, I looked at their 
site, but it hasn't been updated since 2000.

Graham

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <14d.c0033de.29e50df4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020410031345.009c9260@minn.net>

At 11:39 PM 4/9/2002 EDT, you wrote:
>> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname  
>>for first name 
>>  
>> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the  
>>town where you were born.  

Leslie Allen Keller (Mom remarried) St. Charles (or Saint Charles),
Illinois, a suburb of Chicago.

Leska Dostc
Leska Dosai
Leska Dochi
Lesba Dostc
Lesba Dosai
Lesba Dochi

Cool...


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041108.027fb7c0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>
 <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020410032033.009cc4c0@minn.net>

At 04:12 AM 4/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
>>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name
>
>That makes me Ingaty Pollan.  Sounds Hungarian or something.
>
>--Laning

Leslie Allen Keller (Mom remarried) St. Charles (or Saint Charles),
Illinois, a suburb of Chicago.

Lieler Keldon or, Lietes Batdon




=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409234739.B19761@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
 <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
 <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
 <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
 <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041435.027f87e0@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl quoteth me and respondeth:
>On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:14:40AM -0400, laning wrote:
> >
> > One of several great sigs you employ, Mister Robert Uhl.  :->
>
>Thanks for the compliment.  I've rather a large amount of them, to
>tell the truth.  I've 264, which are randomly assigned by a Perl
>script attached to a named pipe.  Many, I'm afraid, are longer than
>the so-called McQ limit (4 lines), but I don't particularly care; it's
>a relic of a bygone era.

Keep up the good work.  :->

>--
>Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>This is why they complain--they don't _want_ to have brains.  Those lead
>to thoughts, and thoughts cause only suffering.  Thus, by asking them to
>think, you are inflicting the torments of the damned on the previously
>blissfully ignorant.        --John Rowat, in alt.tech-support.recovery

Tech support professionals are often more interested in proving their 
intellectual or genetic superiority over the "untermenschen" they "help" 
than in actually fixing problems.  The culture of elitism and braggadocio 
gets inculcated in many tech support reps before they even acquire skill in 
their primary job functions.  Reps who are confined solely to email support 
tend to be the worst.  I speak from personal observation of reps from 
several different companies, but confine my opinions to first and second, 
and sometimes third, echelons of support.

I will now prove my point by bragging.  During my tenure as an AOL tech 
support rep, I was documented to be one of the very top few best at 
actually fixing problems of any rep who has ever been in their database.  I 
rule.  And one of the primary causes of my success was treating each 
customer like a reasonable human being dealing with a problem completely 
unfamiliar to them.  Listen intently, don't talk down.  Think about what 
the actual problem is and how to fix it, don't waste mental bandwidth on 
looking for evidence to support my prejudice that all customers are 
inherently mentally defective.  If I'm so damned superior, what the hell am 
I doing working as a mere tech rep?  Most of the customers I talked to were 
being paid better than most of the reps I worked with.  Now who is the 
dummy?  :->

[And please don't anyone start with that empty and worn out "AOL sucks" 
crap.  Unless you've worked on their dev teams and are familiar with their 
host and network architectures.  And don't start with "AOL tech reps aren't 
real tech reps" unless you've worked with me or one of many, many other 
individuals I could name.  When you have that many thousands of reps, some 
of them are going to be damned good.  If you're still inclined to insult us 
after that, fine.  You'll probably be singing very different types of 
insults though.  I've my own stack of insults for AOL but it's more about 
wasted business opportunities, managers who are empire builders, and 
rampant cronyism.]

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 03:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 02:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020410085426.A2419@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020410191917.B3737@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is
> that if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we
> would prefer that neither of them drop.

Yes, that's one effect.  For example, light photons have sufficient
energy to cause certain chemical changes in pigments in the eye;
that's how we see.

If the chemical energies are a hundred times lower and Planck's
constant is unchanged, a light photon doesn't just affect sensitive
pigments, it rips electrons out of stable molecules and breaks
chemical bonds.  That's what we normally call "ionising radiation".

We can't just use light that has a hundred times lower frequency,
because it has a hundred times longer wavelength.  OK, I guess we can,
but it involves changing the speed of light...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 03:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Wed Apr 10 02:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041435.027f87e0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


AOL *does* suck.  I was a member back in 1996-97.  I had nothing but
problems with that wretched service.  My personal information was sold
to all sorts of bulk-emailers, spammers and porn sites.  The 45 minute
"click on this" to stay online button was a pain in the ass.  If you
minimized AOL and ran a browser, you didn't even get the warning..you
just got disconnected.   If you started AOL minimized, you'd get one of
their "click on this yes or no" advertisements and could not click on it
to finish logging on..so you had to disconnect and restart the whole
program.

Downloading was a joke.  You had to sit at your computer and wait for
the 45 minute button or lose the download.  (downloading the demo to
Wing Commander: Prophesy (69megs) was terrible).

I had to deal with a ton of unwanted porn mail and spam.  I had to deal
with the above frustrations.  I had to deal with support people
(obviously I never got you) who were clueless.

I had just paid for a month's time when I called up and said I wanted to
terminate my membership.  The person on the phone explained that they
could not refund my money and that I had almost a full month left.  I
said it didn't matter, I just wanted out.  So he turned my account off
and that was that.

2 months later, I got a bill from AOL saying I owed them for a month's
services.  So I had to call them and explain that I wasn't a member and
had quit in good standing.  The person on the phone looked into it and
agreed it was a mistake and told me it would be taken care of.

1 month later I get a second notice in the mail, demanding I pay my bill
or else.  Again I call them up and again they apologize and fix the
problem.

1 month after that, I get a notice saying that they are forwarding my
bill to a collection agency.  I call up and this time I tell them that
if AOL ever mails me again or contacts me in any way, I will sue.  The
person on the phone was very apologetic and promised I would never be
bothered again.

I wasn't.

A few months later, my mother calls me on the phone sounding concerned.
She asks, "Is everything ok?"  I replied to her, "yeah, why do you ask?"
She then tells me that AOL sent a past-due notice to her in my behalf
and that she paid it.

So AOL managed to *steal* money from my family that they had no right
to.  To this day I still get their stupid free CDs in the mail.

There are very VERY few things in this life I hate more than AOL.  If I
could destroy AOL and get away with it, I promise you I would.  They
have made an enemy of me for life.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 03:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Wed Apr 10 02:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410031600.02c08230@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <001701c1e075$33bf6020$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----


I suggest referring to Web pages for professional data recovery 
companies.  Like On Track Data Recovery.
www.ontrack.com but beware of relatively heavy graphics and java
scripting.

Western Digital's Web site (mostly known as a hard drive maker) is where
I 
usually go to get a bunch of hyperlinks to data recovery firms when I
need 
to refer people.

--Laning



Use an oscilloscope.  Read the magnetic wavelength off the platters and
subtract the perfect part of the signal.  What you have left is data.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <200204101125.DTH00304@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>
>= Barista Corrt
>

Sounds like you work at Starbucks.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gearhead Goodies: couple of rocket missile books
Message-ID: <3CB3DC6C.16284.140D91@localhost>

friend of mine has been flying model rockets for years, and he was showing me some 
blueprints and a  couple of books on rockets and missiles. 

www.arapress.com
the Spaceship Handboook and Rockets of the World



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGGCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> >
> >A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
> >bone from a walrus penis.  See
> >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html
>
So when I tell my girlfriend that I've got a "Boner",
I'm really speaking Eskimo?

-Shawn-



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:35:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:35:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEGGCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> >
> >A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
> >bone from a walrus penis.  See
> >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html
>

Ancient Eskimo wisdom say:
Never knife fight man with hairy palms.

-Shawn-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:52:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:52:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F217LltyKF5Q6JVW8s20001d6e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410044431.009e86c0@mindspring.com>

At 02:22 AM 4/10/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the 
>conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.

In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat 
in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?

Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public 
opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the 
region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.

All of these could be applied to the 1st Interstellar War.  The Vilani 
might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really capable of, or were 
under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder.  ISTR from losing endless 
games of Imperium to Craig that the Imperial governor was beholden to his 
superiors.. asking for the necessary firepower was a big blow to his 
prestige.  Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion snetients would do?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> 
> At 07:28 PM 4/9/2002, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
> >Team finds a "disk" that contains the secret information. but it is not 
> >compatible with what they have on the ship. Now how do they read the 
> >information with out destroying the contents.
> 

IMTU I have what's called "Imperial Standard".
These items cost 0-10% above the LBB price.
Anything Imperial Standard has compatible connectors
and data formats. Thus your Inertial Map Locator
can connect to your communicator to transmit it's data
to another players communicator, that is connected to 
his map box and hand computer. You get the drift.

-Shawn-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> QUOTE
> The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
> civilians.  It has little or no military application,
> contrary to popular mythos.
> END QUOTE
> 

Commanders who have given the order to "fix bayonets" to
scared troops, often notice an increased level of confidence
and moral. 

-Shawn-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

While putting together an exploratory cruiser for TNE (coming shortly) I
reread the information in the Solomani & Aslan book regarding the Solomani
explorations into the neighbouring Perseus arm of the galaxy.

It struck me that the ships of these expeditions would be quite challenging
to design. Mission length must have been in decades so the ships must have
been to a great extent self supporting. But just how would the ships cross
into the next arm?

Contrary to popular opinion there are stars in the gaps between the arms,
the spirals themselves being defined by bright stars. But as to how many
stars and whether fuel sources could be found there?

Assuming the ships were built to TL14 or 15 standard this means jump 5 or 6
maximum, and it is likely that in the "gaps" fuel sources may be further
apart than this. Very embarrassing for a ship to run out of fuel!

So IMHO the ships would also be fitted with Bussard Rams to scoop up the
hydrogen found in the space between arms. This would not be used for the
HePLar thruster but to refuel the jump drive and power plant. (Though this
makes the ship even bigger as it does have to carry enough maneuver fuel to
get up to a velocity where the Ram Scoop functions.

Any ideas?

Anyone want to have a go at designing one using FFS1?
Could such a ship work at all given Traveller Tech limits?

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409234307.A19761@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:12:37AM -0400
Message-ID: <3CB4DAB8.15448.3769A3@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 23:43, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> What I mean is that man, viewed as an organism, seems not to value RPG
> line editors as highly as information architects (but, e.g., higher
> than garbagemen).  That valuation has no moral meaning, of course.
> It's just that there aren't enough people willing to pay enough to pay
> line editors what IT people get.  Would _you_ pay $130 per supplement?

If the NZ dollar drops back to its former low vs the US$ and the price 
in the US of supplements goes up much more, I'll be forced to pay about 
that or do without. And if they were good supplements for a game I was 
playing (or was likely to in the near future) I probably would, sucker 
that I am.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>
References: <B8D89BAB.38054%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4DCF1.26051.4017AA@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 2:36, laning wrote:

> I also remind everyone that all other things (like velocity and sectional 
> density) being equal, the more massive bullet will penetrate cover better 
> and that most troops you're shooting at will seek cover if they're not 
> already using it.  Big bullets still have their advantages.

Yep. A source of complaint from the older guys when we switched from 
the L1A1s (a bit before my time, though the Air Farce was still using 
them in the early 90s) to the M16A1 and finally the Stryr AUG was that 
the 5.56mm bullet wouldn't go through 18" or 2' thick pine trees, 
whereas the 7.62x51 bullet would.
 
> And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting 
> results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting 
> dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or 
> .308?  Or something else?

I'd be quite happy with a .308, as long as I was used to the particular 
weapon. I'd prefer a .30-06, or in very close country a 12ga magnum 
shotgun (pump or semi-auto). However a lot depends on whether it's thin 
skinned or not - Leopards run up to 150-160 pounds and .243 is 
considered adequate for them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041435.027f87e0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <20020409234739.B19761@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3CB4DE5E.18426.45A995@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 4:35, laning wrote:

> Think about what the actual problem is and how to fix it, don't waste
> mental bandwidth on looking for evidence to support my prejudice that
> all customers are inherently mentally defective. If I'm so damned
> superior, what the hell am I doing working as a mere tech rep?  Most
> of the customers I talked to were being paid better than most of the
> reps I worked with.  Now who is the dummy?  :-> 

Now, I agree with you about not wasting mental bandwidth, but you've 
got the reason all wrong. the real reason to not look "for evidence to 
support my prejudice that all customers are inherently mentally 
defective" is that unless you've a self-esteem problem (like many of 
your co-workers obviously did) you'll know beyond a shadow of a doubt 
that you're superior. That being the case, why waste time proving 
something already self-evident?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 07:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed Apr 10 06:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Portland class scout cruiser
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBGEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

PORTLAND CLASS SCOUT CRUISER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION

The Portland class fitted into the small gap between escorts and light
cruisers. Most were deployed with the Confederations exploration division,
though the limited jump capacity, 1xJump-3 was considered something of a
hindrance, though careful mission planning could overcome this to some
extent. Portlands ranged far and wide, both on exploration and intelligence
work. Some were used by the Confederation navy, the two parallel 7,000Mj
N-PAW weapons providing a useful capability. More being used as defacto
cruisers as the 2nd Rim War progressed.

The Confederations exploration division responded to this by somehow
ensuring that most of the Portlands operated by them managed to stay far
beyond the Confederations borders. This also meant that a disproportionate
number of this class survived the war and the impact of virus.

In the absence of more capable vessels the Confederation also despatched a
number of Portlands on long range missions to search for any sign of
returning vessels from the Perseus Arms expeditions. These too had failed to
return when virus swept through the Solomani Confederation.


General Data Displacement: 15,000 tons  Hull Armour: 60
Length: 180 meters  Volume: 210,000 cubic meters
Price: MCr6,885.97438  Target Size: L
Configuration: Wedge SL  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 137,937.6836/122,269.5345 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 25,287Mw Fusion Power Plant (99.95Mw/hit), 1
year duration (83.7951Mw surplus)
Jump Performance: 1xJump-3 (42,000 cubic meters)
G-Rating: 3 (7,500Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 82 (96.9 with jump-2 reserve, 111.9 with jump-1 reserve, 126.8 with
no jump reserve), 937.5 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 5,012

Electronics Computer: 3xTL13 Fb (0.9Mw each)
Commo: 2x300,000km Radio (10 hexes, 10Mw each), 2x1,000AU Maser (8, 0.6Mw
each),
Avionics: TL10+ Avionics
Sensors: 2x150,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (5 hexes; 0.2Mw each),
2x300,000km Active EMS (10 hexes; 27.5Mw each), 2xTL13 Densitometer (0.9Mw
each), 2xTL12 Neutrino Sensor (0.01Mw each), 12xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw
each)
ECM/ECCM: EM Masking (210Mw), 36xDecoy Dispensors
Controls: Bridge with 98xBridge Workstations, Auxiliary Bridge with
98xBridge Workstations, Flag Bridge with 11x Bridge Workstations, Fire
Control Bridge with 15xBridge Workstations, plus 252 other workstations

Armament Offensive: 2xTL13 7,000Mj Parallel Mount N-PAWs (Loc: 4,5; Arcs:1;
194.4445Mw each; 19 Crew each), 20xTL13 106Mj Laser Turrets (Loc:
4x2,4x3,4x8,4x9,4x10 ; Arcs: 1,2,3; 29.4445Mw each; 1 Crew each), 8xMissile
100-ton Bays (Loc: 2x6,2x7,2x14,2x15; each with 4 missile/recce drones and
96 missiles or recce drones each; 0.15Mw each; 1 Crew each)

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
7,000Mj Parallel N-PAW  10:418  20:418  40:418  80:418
106Mj Laser Turret  10:1/8-26  20:1/6-20  40:1/3-10  80:1/2-5
-2 Difficulty Levels

Defensive: TL13 Meson Screen (PV=285; 90Mw; 4 Crew), 6xTL13 Nuclear Damper
Barbettes (Loc: 3x16,3x17; Arcs: All; 9Mw each; 1 Crew each), 10xTL13
Sandcaster Turrets (Loc: 5x18,5x19; Arcs: All; 2D6x5 per hit; 35 Cannisters
each; 1Mw each; 1 Crew each)
Master Fire Directors: 7xTL13 (4 Diff Mod; Beam; 10 hexes; 2.95Mw each; 1
Crew each), 8xTL13 (4 Diff Mod; Beam/Missile; 10 hexes; 3.1Mw each; 1 Crew
each)

Accommodations Life Support: Extended (42Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
1050Mw)
Crew: 675/687 (252xEngineering, 6xElectronics, 4xManeuver, 131xGunnery,
52xMaintenance, 41xShip's Troops, 6xFlight Crew, 156xCommand, 23xSteward,
5xMedical),Flagship adds (3xElectronics, 8xCommand, 1xSteward)
Crew Accommodations: 382xSmall Staterooms (0.0005Mw each), 10xLow Berths
(0.001Mw each)
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 1,355.7 cubic meters, four large cargo hatches
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: 1 15-ton RF14D Scorpion class recon
fighter with internal hanger (minimal) and one launch port, 2 30-ton Puffin
class ship's boats with internal hangers (minimal) and one launch port each
Air Locks: 150
Additional Fittings: 2x8-ton Sick Bays (0.8 Mw each), 2x10-ton Machine Shops
(1 Mw each), 2x6-ton Electronics Shops (0.6Mw each)

Notes
Fuel purification equipment (121.4037Mw) is sufficient to purifiy 24,280.74
cubic meters in 6 hours (30 hours for entire load exclusive of power plant
fuel) Fuel scoop capacity is 42,000 cubic meters per hour (2.83 hours for
entire load exclusive of power plant fuel).

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  		Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  		Systems
1  			1-2:Ant  		1-19:Elec,20:Qtrs  		PP-253H,JD-252H,
2-3   					1:LT,2-16:Qtrs,17-20:Hold  	FPP-170H,
4-5,12-13  		1:AL  		1-2:PA,3-20:Hold  		LS-123H,PA-80H,
6-7,14-15  		1:AL  		1-2:PA,3-7:MBy,8-20:Hold  	ELS-62H,AG-42H,
8-10  		1:AL  		1-2:PA,3:LT,4-20:Hold  		MD-23H,EMM-21H,
11  			1:LP,2:CH  		1-2:PA,3-20:Hold  		Hanger-21H,
16-17  		1:AL,2:Decoy  	1-2:PA,3:ND,4-5:Elec,6-20:Hold  MScreen-14H,
18-19  		1:AL,2-4:EMMR  	1-2:PA,3:Sand,4-20:Eng  	MBy-14H,ND-1H,
20  			1:EMMR  		1-2:PA,3-20:Eng  			LT-1H,Sand-1H,
   											ElecShop-1H,
   											MachineShop-1H,
   											SickBay-1H,
   											EMMR-(210h),MFD-(4h),
   											MFDAnt-(2h),AEMS-(2h),
   											Neutrino-(2h),SSR-(2h),
   											All others-(1h)

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
Message-ID: <200204101359.DTL04671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Antony Farrell" asks
<snip question about how to refuel in the middle of nowhere>

There are many brown dwarfs that are probably not on star 
charts, substellar or even Jupiter-sized gas giants in the 
middle of nowhere.

Ice balls, cometary bodies, etc.  Even clouds of hydrogen, 
depending on where you are.

You might, as you say, require specialized equipment to 
locate, identify, and exploit such resources.

Also, your ship may have backup power generation that 
provides a means of keeping the crew alive and the ship able 
to move enough to collect fuel.  This backup power generation 
is probably nuclear fission, which allows the ship to 
potentially go without hydrogen (albeit without jumping 
anywhere) for some time.

You may also remember Annic Nova.  That ship used power 
accumulators (and solar power to load them). 

So let's consider a ship with a nuclear fission base 
powerplant (to keep everyone nice and warm, and provide a 
little extra power to charge jump accumulators a la Annic 
Nova).  We'll also throw in a deployable solar array, in case 
we're near a star.

If we're in the middle of nowhere, with no sunlight, we 
charge the accumulators off of the excess power from the 
fission reactor.  If we're near a star, it's a bit quicker to 
recharge, since we get some solar power.

There might even be additional closed-cycle hydrogen/oxygen 
fuel cells.  These could be recharged from any other power 
production, and could be endlessly recycled.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022011.027e0130@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D9980E.382D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 11:24 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

>> The .223 is a fairly accurate round, on par with most cartridges.  The 308
>> is theoretically more accurate.  It is certainly more resistant to the
>> wind.  But as far as semi-auto platforms, there is nothing better than
>> Stoner's design.  Put a 308 in an M16 platform, like the AR-10 or SR-25,
>> and you get outstanding accuracy.
> 
> I've wondered for a long time about getting an AR-15 or similar chambered
> for .308.  How does it perform on full auto?  (I imagine it has issues with
> the barrel overheating more than a heavier weapon would.)  Rapid semi?  Is
> there even such an animal sold commercially?
> 
> Not that I have any actual use for such a thing.

Been living in a cave?  The original AR design was for a .308 (AR-10).
Current variants include the AR-10 and SR-25.  Like any full-auto .308, the
AR-10 is difficult to control.

It should be noted that the AR-10 and clones are no more prone to
overheating than any other .308 as current guns use barrels that are
comparable to other rifles.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <F210hWdlurZFj9V1M0i00013a41@hotmail.com>

>
> > Star Wars Name =
> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
> > name
> >
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town
> > where you were born.
>
>Mikpa Auhel.
>
>Hilarious...

Gresm Mopit

aka Andma Mopit



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
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http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D99957.382D9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 11:36 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting
> results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting
> dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or
> .308?  Or something else?

You forgot to add:  "Using ball ammunition only".

We are speaking of military weapons here, so let's get the ammo right.
There is no question that if ammunition selection is not restricted,
7.62x51mm is more lethal.

Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 over 7.62x51mm
ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
any particular caliber.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:28:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:28:22 2002
Subject: [TML] [Fwd: TML Landrgrab]
Message-ID: <3CB44B6D.D543DDB3@premier.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Another JTAS subscriber want to join in the Landgrab.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.
--------------905666F0ED2E48681BD24B32
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Return-Path: <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
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From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
To: "'landgrab@downport.com'" <landgrab@downport.com>
Cc: "'wombat@premier.net'" <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: TML Landrgrab
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 09:47:20 -0400
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I would like to stake a claim on the following worlds in the Spinward
Marches:

Keng/Regina
Kegena/Rhylanor

Thanks,

	Brian Hurrel

Brian L. Hurrel
ICS Analyst
EDS
(973) 682-5578



--------------905666F0ED2E48681BD24B32--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:30:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:30:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20409.224111.2G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D99A5C.382DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 11:41 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> 
>> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).
>> A 65 gram projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.
> 
> 65 grams is about 2.3 *ounces*. Ouch.
> 
> 4800 fps = ~1460 m/s.
> 
> Yeek! That's almost 70 kiloJoules muzzle energy!
> 
> Yeah, that'd make folks go splat.

I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.

69,562 Joules of energy
1,130 joules of free recoil

25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:31:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:31:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <F101tqbFkSX50mLWfFz0001f08d@hotmail.com>

>>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
>>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name
>
>That makes me Ingaty Pollan.  Sounds Hungarian or something.

Oryith Smimoo  / Regith Smimoo (if I went with 'Greg')

aka

Rewock MacMoo

Not too bad, eh?




Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F221lf8nFJ3VTPlu4kA0000f71e@hotmail.com>

Tod Glen wrote:>Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 
over 7.62x51mm
>ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
>is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
>any particular caliber.

It is a tuff call.  It appears that the 5.56mm does actually make bigger 
wounds, as long as there is sufficient tissue to penetrate, as long as the 
velocity is above 2700 fps.  With an M16 that is like 200- yards; with the 
M4 it is only 100-140 yards.  After that range, you are better off with the 
bigger round.  And the 7.62x51 certainly penetrates through cover better at 
all ranges.  But however you weigh those tradeoffs, there is no doubt that 
you are going to have to be carrying around an extra 5-10 pounds of gear 
with the bigger rifle.

It is my understanding that there is some griping after Afghanistan about 
the M4's performance.  Its lack of "stopping power" and penetration is being 
critisized.  With the 62 grain bullet, I think the muzzle velocity is only 
like 2900 fps.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F116kY5TetpIuPHDXE20001de7d@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting
>results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting
>dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or
>.308?  Or something else?

Using soft points, .308 (7.62)is actually probably overkill a bit for (human 
sized) deer.  Something in the .257 to .284 (7mm) range is adequate.  Most 
people still go with .30 caliber, because it is popular and it gives a 
little margin for error.  .308 is more appropriate for larger game, like elk 
(400 + pounds, with a much heavier bone structure).  It is important to keep 
in mind that when the US Army went to .30 caliber cartridges, they thought 
it was still important to stop a horse.  I think their choice goes a little 
overboard for infantry.  The Army has thought about going to a 7mm cartridge 
twice.  The first time, between the wars, it was decided that it would be a 
mistake to make all of the 30-06 ammo laying around obsolete.  The second 
time, under pressure from the British after WWII, the Army was still in awe 
of the Garand's performance and decided to go with 30-06 ballistics in a 
shorter package.

Then they went to .22.  Go figure.  The British were not too pleased.  And 
the rest of the Western world ended up with 7.62x51 rifles that are 
difficult to control, to put in lightly, on full-auto.

IMHO an assault rifle in the 6.5-7mm range and a velocity of 2800 fps would 
be a fine weapon.  Good for deer too.

.223 is largely considered underpowered for deer of the size you mention.  
It is legal where I live, but one problem you run into is that you must use 
soft points and they will not yeild sufficient penetration.  I read an 
article last year by a guy who went and shot a bunch of deer with centerfire 
.22s, and his conclusion was that the results were good so long as (1) you 
use bullets that hold together well, like Nosler partitions, and (2) the 
velocity is above 2700 fps, which coincidentally is the critical velocity 
for FMJ ammo too.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>; from ShawnSears@telocity.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:05:34AM -0400
References: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20020410095004.A21459@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:05:34AM -0400, Shawn R Sears wrote:
> 
> Commanders who have given the order to "fix bayonets" to
> scared troops, often notice an increased level of confidence
> and moral. 

This may be related to the visceral fear one feels when faced with a
blade: when on the wielding end, it may possibly feel much more
empowering than a simple rifle does.

I know in my own case that I feel somehow more prepared when carrying
a sword than when carrying a rifle or pistol.  This may even be the
real reason dress swords have survived as long as they have.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I once successfully declined a departmental retreat, saying that on that
day I planned instead to advance.                    --Alan J. Rosenthal

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F215PT3lz5yrFVq9GNS00002f52@hotmail.com>

laning said:

>I've wondered for a long time about getting an AR-15 or similar chambered
>for .308.  How does it perform on full auto?  (I imagine it has issues with
>the barrel overheating more than a heavier weapon would.)

I imagine that full-auto is uncontrollable.  The were only a few thousand of 
the original AR-10s made (for Portugal and the Sudan?), and they only 
weighed like 7 pounds.  I believe the SR-25 and modern AR-10 are heavier, 
like the same as an M14.  To tell you the truth, I am not even sure if they 
make full-auto versions.  It would probably be a little more controllable 
than an M14, even if it was the same weight, because the stock is in line 
with the barrel.

>Rapid semi?

I think you would get good results.  Israel uses the SR-25 as a sniper 
rifle, in conjunction with Remington 700s.

>Is there even such an animal sold commercially?

The SR-25 is made by an outfit called Knight's Armament, and the AR-10 is 
made by Armalite.  Both are for sale to the public; I think the AR-10 can be 
had for as little as $1,000.

>Not that I have any actual use for such a thing.

That is what my wife says about all of this Traveller stuff.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F206POYFSrAuWiqJmdT00013683@hotmail.com>

laning wrote:

>At 08:59 PM 4/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>>On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off some
>>M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and issuing them at
>>the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max 500 yards?) and
>>sniper (800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the guy with the M14 the
>>"designated marksman" or something like that.>
>Glad to hear we're doing that.  It's basically the latest variation on
>something we've at least theoretically been doing for many decades.

I guess the army is experimenting with the same concept, although they are 
using M16s with free floated 18" match barrels, supressors, and Leupold 
2.5-8 scopes.  I don't think these are for general issue, but have gone to 
special forces.  Some of the AP pictures show these weapons in use in 
Afghanistan.

I am sure the Army and Marines will be able to evaluate their respective 
designs, and rationally decide which approach is the best.  ;)

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 10:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 09:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204101603.DTP06500@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>
>It is my understanding that there is some griping after 
>Afghanistan about the M4's performance.  Its lack 
>of "stopping power" and penetration is being 
>critisized.  With the 62 grain bullet, I think the muzzle 
>velocity is only 
>like 2900 fps.
>

There was the same griping about the M4 from the Somalia 
experience.  Some people were hit as many as six times in the 
torso at less than 50 yards, and did not go down, or even 
slow down.  Now, some of the targets were high on khat, which 
is a stimulant, so it's hard to say.  I think of "high" 
people the same way I think of deer - unless you hit them in 
the right spot, they are going to try and run.  

For deer and 4-legged animals, I usually try and hit the 
shoulder, looking for a bone hit.  This means that I must 
have a bullet capable of breaking bone on impact at the 
desired range.

For people, other than a head hit, I'm thinking that 
shattering the pelvis would be very useful, but I'm thinking 
that's a heavier bone than deer shoulder.

It almost makes me think that if you really wanted to be sure 
of putting someone down, you have to hit them in just the 
right spot.  An M4 through the skull is going to put you 
down.  

It's too bad we don't use hunting ammunition in combat.  I 
think that if we had a better optimized bullet, the M4 would 
be fine.  Maybe not very good at armor penetration anymore, 
but great at stopping.  It was said earlier that non-ball 
makes a .308 very deadly.  Sure.  And a .338 even more so.  
But if we're stuck with 5.56mm, then we should redesign the 
round to maximize wounding.  Probably go back to a lighter 
bullet for the M4 (since we're shorter range anyway), maybe 
even 50 grains, and make it a varmint bullet designed to blow 
apart inside the body (to make a temporary cavity a permanent 
one). Get that velocity up, and make sure the round does not 
exit the body.

To paraphrase Apocalypse Now, to prosecute people for war 
crimes (like using hunting ammunition) is like handing out 
speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

 
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 10:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 09:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F11APfrrF69u7tS1RkF00004676@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon says:

>There was the same griping about the M4 from the Somalia
>experience.  Some people were hit as many as six times in the
>torso at less than 50 yards, and did not go down, or even
>slow down.  Now, some of the targets were high on khat, which
>is a stimulant, so it's hard to say.

From what I understand, the guys in Somalia had not yet been issued M4s; 
they had XM177s/CAR-15s with little 10 or 11 inch barrels.  The muzzle 
velocity with those weapons is only like 2500 fps.

In the book Blackhawk Down, one of the Rangers unloads his M60 on a guy and 
it takes a few bursts to put him down.  We ought to issue that Khat to our 
troops!

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 10:58:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 09:58:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <20020410.095929.-78189.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 07:25:02 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com  says
> >
> >= Barista Corrt
> >
> 
> Sounds like you work at Starbucks.

Yea, Starbucks in Startown - Lousy place for coffee, but the actions not
bad.

Just remember to roll the R's in "Corrt" bucko, or I'll have ya tossed
outa here by our new bouncer - Barst Cortor the 7 foot tall 300 lb
Barbarian.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204100809390.28175-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <DAV32eCyWu1MRRNOqcC0001c03c@hotmail.com>

> > Star Wars Name =
> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
> > name
> >
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town
> > where you were born.

Bilsc Guazl  [sigh]

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <200204101709.DTR06672@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>> > Star Wars Name =
>> >
>> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your 
surname for first
>> > name
>> >
>> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of 
the town
>> > where you were born.
>

Trying this again.  John Kwon.  Chapel Hill.  Mother's maiden 
name is Sweezy.

Joh + kw = Johkw
Sw + Cha = Swcha

Johkw Swcha

Not very easy to pronounce.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5@aol.com>

--part1_16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5_boundary
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   Shane writes:
> Star Wars Name =
>
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born.

Hmm..  Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
Using your equation, I'd be:  Shasr Baden

But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

Which for me yields:  Anemet Slabar
I dunno, they're both kinda cool.

   Hmmm, okay, that sounds cool too--lets see what I get :)

   Ethphy Murerw? I dunno... I think I liked Kenmur Ersan better :)
  -Ken Murphy-


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Shane writes:
<BR>&gt; Star Wars Name =
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
<BR>&gt; were born.
<BR>
<BR>Hmm.. &nbsp;Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
<BR>Using your equation, I'd be: &nbsp;Shasr Baden
<BR>
<BR>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
<BR>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
<BR>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name
<BR>
<BR>Which for me yields: &nbsp;Anemet Slabar
<BR>I dunno, they're both kinda cool.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Hmmm, okay, that sounds cool too--lets see what I get :)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Ethphy Murerw? I dunno... I think I liked Kenmur Ersan better :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40@aol.com>

--part1_99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40_boundary
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   Rob wrote:
   When I was younger I spit
chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it
sometime).
 
   It'd be an interesting exercise to see if the skills acquired could be 
generated using CT's "Other" career, or whether you'd have to knockout an 
entirely new set of skill tables--a somewhat scary proposition either way you 
look at it :)
  -Ken-
   Who is currently halfway through his 5th term in a still-as-yet 
undetermined career ;P
   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Rob wrote:
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;When I was younger I spit
<BR>chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it
<BR>sometime).
<BR> 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;It'd be an interesting exercise to see if the skills acquired could be generated using CT's "Other" career, or whether you'd have to knockout an entirely new set of skill tables--a somewhat scary proposition either way you look at it :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Who is currently halfway through his 5th term in a still-as-yet undetermined career ;P
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Craig Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020410143005.F2EB127AB3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0204100927470.24254-100000@hollywood.cinenet.net>

> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 04:49:00 -0700
> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> At 02:22 AM 4/10/02 +0000, you wrote:
> >Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the
> >conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.
>
> In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat
> in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?
>
> Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public
> opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the
> region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.

And a muddled, unrealistic set of goals for the operation.  We went in
with no understanding of Vietnamese history, society, psychology, or
politics, and expected to galvanize the South into a uniform resistance
force and to persuade the North to back off based on our *potential*
ability to stomp them flat.  Nobody ever seems to have considered what
would happen if they called our bluff.

> All of these could be applied to the 1st Interstellar War.  The Vilani
> might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really capable of, or were
> under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder.  ISTR from losing endless
> games of Imperium to Craig that the Imperial governor was beholden to his
> superiors.. asking for the necessary firepower was a big blow to his
> prestige.  Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion snetients would do?

You recall correctly, and in my mind this is sufficient to explain how the
Terrans managed their initial victories while outnumbered and outgunned
thousands to one (taking into account the full Vilani might).  I get the
strong sense that the Ziru Sirka practiced "shoot the messenger"-style
management a great deal; the status quo and normal operations were
the ideal, and regional governors were tacitly expected to report
"everything is okay!" while quietly dealing with any irregularities before
they came to wider attention.  To admit that a situation had come up that
you couldn't handle was taken as a failure of planning or procedure, with
the obvious effects on your career.

I am very strongly of the opinion that the local Vilani governor knew all
about the Terrans; probably several of them did, over the century or two
immediately preceding official contact.  Remember, the ZS was quite used
to encountering minor human races as it expanded, and I'm sure there were
exhaustively documented procedures and case studies on how to proceed with
their integration into the ZS.  The Terrans simply didn't operate
according to the 'rules', and the governor was terrified to report this
fully to his superiors.  The rest is (future) history.

-- 
   |   Craig Berry - http://www.cinenet.net/~cberry/
 --*--  "All that lives is holy." - William Blake
   |


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCELGDOAA.andy@exeus.com>

> But the thing is, I always thought the equation was: 
> Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name 
> First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name 

Rewick Briglo at your service.

Andy Brick
75% of Term 4 done. Aging rolls only a short while away ...
 
 
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.345 / Virus Database: 193 - Release Date: 09/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
Message-ID: <200204101734.DTT01888@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

For a good look at a list of 'munitions' please see

http://www.eurospace.org/usml.pdf

Tedious.  It seems to be whatever may be remotely useful in a 
weapon-related sense.  No plasma guns on the list - yet.

ObTrav: Still wondering how to handle "permits".  Or even the 
law level restrictions (which I think are odd - of course, 
there aren't any real countries where the rules make sense).

It could be worse.  If you want to hunt in Germany you have 
to wear the Keebler Elf outfit.

"It says here on the back of the permit that if I want to 
carry my PGMP in public, I have to wear the "customary" pink 
bike shorts and traditional "penguin" face mask."
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
In-Reply-To: <200204101734.DTT01888@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:34:43PM -0400
References: <200204101734.DTT01888@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020410120024.A21755@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:34:43PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> It could be worse.  If you want to hunt in Germany you have 
> to wear the Keebler Elf outfit.

???

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Friends don't let civilian friends report military affairs.  It
embarrasses the reporter, and grossly misleads the public.
                                                 --Laning

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40@aol.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGMCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1E099.1C0062D0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 Rob wrote: 
  When I was younger I spit 
chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it 
sometime). 

Chicken Spitting?

It sounds like something a lion might do if the chicken tasted fowl. ;-)

-Shawn-

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1E099.1C0062D0
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	charset="us-ascii"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;Rob wrote: =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;When I was=20
younger I spit <BR>chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe =
I'll=20
write it <BR>sometime).&nbsp;<BR><BR></FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Chicken=20
Spitting?</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D601160418-10042002>It=20
sounds like something a lion might do if the chicken tasted fowl.=20
;-)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002>-Shawn-</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
Message-ID: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" wonders
>On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:34:43PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>> 
>> It could be worse.  If you want to hunt in Germany you 
>>have to wear the Keebler Elf outfit.
>
>???
>

When I was stationed in Germany, I wanted to hunt.  So I 
signed up for classes, paid a HUGE chunk of cash for classes, 
fees, etc.  Then I had to hire a guide. No option given 
there. The classes were extensive and mandatory (especially 
considering that the area I was going to hunt in is the size 
of a small park, and is neatly manicured).  At the end, I sat 
with my guide in a plush treestand.

It was mandatory that I wear the lederhosen.  I am glad no 
one has a picture of that.  That outfit is expensive.

And now the guide is instructing me on which deer I can 
shoot, and which are not permitted.

Have to tip the guide as well.  Most expensive deer I ever 
ate.  It's what happens when a culture is based entirely on a 
layered bureaucracy.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
Message-ID: <200204101816.DTU00025@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"John T. Kwon" says
<snip about hunting in Germany>

I could have gone to South Africa and hunted for two weeks, 
airfare included, for what I spent to hunt in Germany.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGMCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>; from ShawnSears@telocity.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:07:54PM -0400
References: <99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40@aol.com> <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGMCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20020410122225.B21755@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:07:54PM -0400, Shawn R Sears wrote:
> 
> Chicken Spitting?

There is (or was--it may have gone out of business) a chain called
Boston Chicken (later Boston Market) whose main draw was its
rotisserie chicken.  I prepared the chicken.

The way it works is that Sysco would deliver great plastic boxes of 16
chickens each.  There was a great plastic bag in the box which held
the chickens and the flavouring they were packed in.

I would go to the freezer and haul out 128 or 256 chickens (8 or 16
boxes) and wheel the pallet over to my workstation.  I'd then prepare
the garlic marinade: a gallon of apple cider vinegar and a package of
this garlic/sugar power mixture.  Then I would repeat the following
process over and over:

1) Open box
2) Slit open bag
3) Remove chicken
4) Slide hand into icy cold chicken and pull out any fat
5) Dunk chicken in marinade
6) Slide chicken onto spit and fix with spike
7) Repeat 3-6 thrice (four chickens to a spit)
8) Repeat 1-7 until no more boxes

It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over
me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar.

I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
For 93 million miles, there is nothing between the sun and my shadow
except me.  I'm always getting in the way of something...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
In-Reply-To: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:10:51PM -0400
References: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020410123043.C21755@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:10:51PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> It's what happens when a culture is based entirely on a layered
> bureaucracy.

LOL.  My favourite history prof in college told the story of trying to
name his son while he and his wife were living in Germany.  They
wanted to name him Calvert, after his wife's maiden name.  Apparently
one must take one's names from a great book of approved names--of
course Calvert wasn't in it.  So he asks them what he needs to do.
The clerk goes back to her superior and they discuss it for awhile,
then she returns and states that if he can get a letter from the
American consul stating that Calvert is an approved American name,
then he can name his son that.

So he went on down to the consul, they all had a good laugh, and the
letter informing the German registry that Calvert is approved for use
in America was sent.

OTOH, I daresay Germany has no-one name Moon Unit or Dweezil, so the
policy is not entirely incorrect.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Farewell Romance the Soldier spoke
By skill-of-sword we may not win
But scuffle 'midst the unclean smoke
Of arquebuse and culverin
Honor is lost and none may tell
Who paid good blows, Romance farewell.
                            --Kipling

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <200204101843.DTV03242@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert reveals chicken spitting
<snip>

I, and probably others, (Doug?) have done the burning of 
human waste thing.

Nothing like stirring burning human waste, sloshing the 
liquid around, trying to find a "clean" spot to grab the can, 
being permeated by the stench of diesel, smoke, and shit 
(pardon my French).

It's something that you were put on a duty roster for, so you 
didn't get it every day.  But it always came around.  When we 
started, I asked if we were going to be issued some good dope 
to smoke while we were burning the stuff.  After all, we had 
seen that in Platoon...

The powers that be were not amused.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020410191917.B3737@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 10, 2002 07:19:17 PM
Message-ID: <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is
> > that if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we
> > would prefer that neither of them drop.
> 
> Yes, that's one effect.  For example, light photons have sufficient
> energy to cause certain chemical changes in pigments in the eye;
> that's how we see.
> 
> If the chemical energies are a hundred times lower and Planck's
> constant is unchanged, a light photon doesn't just affect sensitive
> pigments, it rips electrons out of stable molecules and breaks
> chemical bonds.  That's what we normally call "ionising radiation".
> 
> We can't just use light that has a hundred times lower frequency,
> because it has a hundred times longer wavelength.  OK, I guess we can,
> but it involves changing the speed of light...

I get the feeling that you're trying to change constants rather than
looking at the problem as a closed system where all four fundamental
forces are modified in the same ratio (actually, I'm still hazy on
whether or not gravity should be included in this). To do so, I think
we really need to look at the most simple problems, involving only a
single atom or a pair of atoms. Otherwise, we may be dealing with a
system that is too complex to really analyze completely. I'd like to
return to the previous example, involving electron orbits. I'm going
to reiterate from my prevous post.

you write:
> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
> well.

Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
energy level of an electron in an atom?

I've heard that the atomic nucleus is held together by the interplay
between the strong and weak forces, the strong force keeping the
positively charged protons together while the weak force tries to
rip them apart. I suppose that since this idea of taming the quantum
foam should reduce both forces equally, the stability of the
nucleus would be uneffected (the effects of the strong & weak force
reductions should cancel out).

However, I'm not sure how to handle the problem of electrons, which
you mention above. But I'll try to tackle it anyway, so what follows
it totally off the cuff. I'm guessing that the electromagnetic force
keeps electrons attracted to the positively charged atomic nucleus
and repulsed by each other, hence accounting for their movements
(of course, this probably falls apart at some level, but bear with
me). Well, I'm just guessing here, but if their movements are determined
by the repulsive & attractive effects of the same force (electromagnetic),
then reducing that force should have no net effect, as reduction in
repulsion will be perfectly offset by the reduction in attraction.
In short, and I'm no physics major, so correct me if I'm wrong,
once again what I would expect is that these changes cancel out,
resulting in there being no need to change Planck's constant.

Am I totally wrong here? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 13:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 12:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>

At 08:03 PM 4/10/02 +0800, you wrote:

>So IMHO the ships would also be fitted with Bussard Rams to scoop up the
>hydrogen found in the space between arms. This would not be used for the
>HePLar thruster but to refuel the jump drive and power plant. (Though this
>makes the ship even bigger as it does have to carry enough maneuver fuel to
>get up to a velocity where the Ram Scoop functions.
>
>Any ideas?

A very interesting idea.

My first reaction to the problem was a squadron of ships, most of which are 
various kinds of rider configuration.  Including one configuration that 
carries a smaller ship, capable of jump-4 or higher and maneuver-1 and 
specializing in jumping with reusable modular fuel tanks and dropping them 
off, then going back to fetch more.  Eventually, they've dumped off a big 
enough fuel cache to support the squadron as it jumps on through.

Perhaps, only one ship one would jump through first.  A ship designed to be 
ready for trouble at the other end if trouble happens to be there.  Then it 
jumps back.  If the other end doesn't have a fuel source either, it will 
have to either carry enough fuel for two jumps or do a reduced jump so that 
it keeps enough fuel to jump back to the fuel cache.  All very tedious.  If 
necessary, the first fuel cache can be used as a jump off to establish a 
second fuel cache farther on.  Even more tedious, but doable.  That should 
get the squadron or at least one lead vessel of the squadron across a 
pretty big gap.

Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination 
star system.  Added to an astronomical database that must be built up far 
beyond what we presently have managed on Earth and from our lowly little TL 
7 or 8, undersized, spacecraft and only observing from the vantage of one 
solar system.

The exploring squadron probably will not have to do much guessing about 
fuel sources along the way, and will have their route well mapped.  The big 
surprises will be what come from close-in observations when they arrive in 
a system, and who/what life they meet along the way.

Any of the astronomy gearheads able to tell us anything about the average 
density and class of the stars in that region?

Are there rules that indicate how much space must be allotted for spare 
parts and repair equipment necessary to keep a ship provisioned for 
decades?  And just who the heck would pay for a trip that won't be heard 
from until after the financier is dead?  (Government, I guess.)  Who the 
heck would _go_ on the trip?  You need a military-style command structure 
to stay organized and on target during the trip, but can you feasibly get 
entire families of qualified crew to submit themselves to living out the 
remainder of their lives that way?  Or instead of families, will it go the 
opposite direction and be only people who've left all earthly attachments 
behind (lol) and are equipped with a plentiful supply of anagathics?  I 
don't recall anything that specifies the age limit for someone on a regular 
regimen of anagathics...Go out forty years and then turn around and come 
back?  My questions are spawning faster than I can type them out.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>

At 08:03 PM 4/10/02 +0800, you wrote:

>So IMHO the ships would also be fitted with Bussard Rams to scoop up the
>hydrogen found in the space between arms. This would not be used for the
>HePLar thruster but to refuel the jump drive and power plant. (Though this
>makes the ship even bigger as it does have to carry enough maneuver fuel to
>get up to a velocity where the Ram Scoop functions.
>
>Any ideas?

A very interesting idea.

My first reaction to the problem was a squadron of ships, most of which are 
various kinds of rider configuration.  Including one configuration that 
carries a smaller ship, capable of jump-4 or higher and maneuver-1 and 
specializing in jumping with reusable modular fuel tanks and dropping them 
off, then going back to fetch more.  Eventually, they've dumped off a big 
enough fuel cache to support the squadron as it jumps on through.

Perhaps, only one ship one would jump through first.  A ship designed to be 
ready for trouble at the other end if trouble happens to be there.  Then it 
jumps back.  If the other end doesn't have a fuel source either, it will 
have to either carry enough fuel for two jumps or do a reduced jump so that 
it keeps enough fuel to jump back to the fuel cache.  All very tedious.  If 
necessary, the first fuel cache can be used as a jump off to establish a 
second fuel cache farther on.  Even more tedious, but doable.  That should 
get the squadron or at least one lead vessel of the squadron across a 
pretty big gap.

Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination 
star system.  Added to an astronomical database that must be built up far 
beyond what we presently have managed on Earth and from our lowly little TL 
7 or 8, undersized, spacecraft and only observing from the vantage of one 
solar system.

The exploring squadron probably will not have to do much guessing about 
fuel sources along the way, and will have their route well mapped.  The big 
surprises will be what come from close-in observations when they arrive in 
a system, and who/what life they meet along the way.

Any of the astronomy gearheads able to tell us anything about the average 
density and class of the stars in that region?

Are there rules that indicate how much space must be allotted for spare 
parts and repair equipment necessary to keep a ship provisioned for 
decades?  And just who the heck would pay for a trip that won't be heard 
from until after the financier is dead?  (Government, I guess.)  Who the 
heck would _go_ on the trip?  You need a military-style command structure 
to stay organized and on target during the trip, but can you feasibly get 
entire families of qualified crew to submit themselves to living out the 
remainder of their lives that way?  Or instead of families, will it go the 
opposite direction and be only people who've left all earthly attachments 
behind (lol) and are equipped with a plentiful supply of anagathics?  I 
don't recall anything that specifies the age limit for someone on a regular 
regimen of anagathics...Go out forty years and then turn around and come 
back?  My questions are spawning faster than I can type them out.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Huxton)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>

Idle speculation from an idle speculator, and it must have been asked 
before...

We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any upper limit 
("that's no moon...")

I had a sudden vision of a jump-capable planet working its way around the 
galaxy sucking gas giants dry between jumps.

Any gearheads got a spreadsheet that can handle this?

Oh, no cheating of course, you have to do this using LBB Book 2 rules at TL13 
and bring the cost in at under 100MCr ;-)

- Richard Huxton



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:09:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:09:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F14rptKlUtfRZGHP4JZ00005b46@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public 
opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the 
region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf."

     "All of these could be applied to the 1st Interstellar War."


Mr. Berry,

     True, but I still have a hard time swallowing it all.
     We've got the constant drum beat in canon about the Vilani "way of war" 
being brutally pragmatic.  They use hostages, have no qualms about nukes, 
target civilians, etc., etc., anything tactic that is cost effective.
     The Ziru Sirka, or it's direct antecedents, were able to put the Vilani 
boot on the neck of quite a number of species and they've kept it there for 
millennia.  The fact that the Geonee, Suerrat, Syleans, et. al. are still 
being kept down at the same time the Terrans show up tells me that the 
Vilani could still get the job done.

     "The Vilani might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really 
capable of, or were under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder."

     After losing the first two Interstellar Wars and visiting the Sol 
system, the Vilani should have known what the Terrans were really capable 
of.  GT:RoF also mentions that the Vilani, when faced with the bewildering 
welter of Terran cultures and genotypes, thought they were facing an 
alliance of several minor human races.  That "threat" alone should have 
spurred some sort of response.
     It's the dichotomy that get's me wondering.  We've got ZS governors 
still keeping the boot on the neck of umpteen minor races, we've got the 
coreward governors arming and using Vargr mercs in political power games 
against each other, and, at the same time, we've got governor after governor 
after on the Rim behaving completely unlike the others throughout the ZS and 
losing piddling wars to a minor race nearly totally confined to a single 
system.

     "ISTR from losing endless games of Imperium to Craig that the Imperial 
governor was beholden to his superiors... asking for the necessary firepower 
was a big blow to his prestige."

     Don't confuse play balance with realpolitik.  As the Vilani player, I 
could spend the prestige points to build larger/more warships early on and 
end up occupying Terra.  The VP table would then paint me as the loser and 
it would be right up to a point.  The Vilani regional governor would "lose" 
but, with Terra occupied, the Ziru Sirka would have actually won.  The 
reverse holds true for the Terran player.  He "wins" because the Vilani 
governor lost too many prestige points, but whose home system is occupied by 
whom?

     "Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion sentients would do?"

     But they'd done it in the past, i.e. the Sky Raiders, and were 
currently threatening to do it to others, the many minor races being held 
down, so why didn't it happen to Sol?  The Ziru Sirka had the numbers, it 
had better technology, and it was chillingly ruthless.  How did it happen to 
lose?
     I'll take my slightly canon-bending answer to that from Cortez' 
conquest of the Aztecs; the Terrans had LOTS of "native" allies.  We all 
learned, wrongly, in school about how Cortez, with only a hundred men, some 
clumsy firelocks, and a few dozen horses, took down the Aztec empire.  Well, 
that makes for good propaganda, but in reality Cortez had tens of thousands 
of native allies, perhaps over 100K of them.
     Cortez visited the Valley of Mexico twice, the first time escaping by 
the skin of his teeth and the second time at the head of an invading army 
nearly 100K strong.  He and his allies built entire fleets to assault 
water-girted capital city of the Aztecs.  The seige went on for months 
before Montezuma finally surrendered.
     IMTU, the "real" story of the Interstellar Wars happens along those 
lines.  The Terrans are greeted at Banard's by a Vilani governor who sees 
them just another tool in his political power games.  The Terrans are 
allowed to expand, are used as deniable mercs in all sorts of Bureau 
bun-fights, and generally bide their time.  Once they feel they're strong 
enough AND they've contacted and recruited lots of those Vilani-oppressed 
minor races, then they strike.  The Terran Confederation wins over the Ziru 
Sirka thanks in large part to their allies; Terran money and Terran gumption 
stir the drink, but the allies provide the mass needed.
     Once the conquest is completed, the Terrans begin to downplay their 
allies contributions and eventually take the Vilani's place as top dog, just 
as the Spanish did with their own allies in Mexico.  Because winners write 
history, the story gets slowly twisted and diluted throughout the Rule of 
Man until it becomes recieved wisdom, an old wives' tale about the 
Interstellar Wars.  The Solomani can't acknowledge how things really 
happened, it would shoot their racist twaddle right out the airlock.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:10:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:10:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020410095004.A21459@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020410195114.49017.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:05:34AM -0400, Shawn R
> Sears wrote:
> > 
> > Commanders who have given the order to "fix
> bayonets" to
> > scared troops, often notice an increased level of
> confidence
> > and moral. 
> 
> This may be related to the visceral fear one feels
> when faced with a
> blade: when on the wielding end, it may possibly
> feel much more
> empowering than a simple rifle does.
> 
> I know in my own case that I feel somehow more
> prepared when carrying
> a sword than when carrying a rifle or pistol.  This
> may even be the
> real reason dress swords have survived as long as
> they have.
> 
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> 
  >>
  That's easily explained: Swords never run out of
ammo, and are a lot harder to break... ;-P~

         MACessna
  >>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:12:21 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F11APfrrF69u7tS1RkF00004676@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155047.01de3120@pop.wizard.net>

Sam D wrote:

>In the book Blackhawk Down, one of the Rangers unloads his M60 on a guy 
>and it takes a few bursts to put him down.  We ought to issue that Khat to 
>our troops!

Give credit to the guy, not the drug.  Nobody at TL 8 or lower makes a drug 
that can turn an average soldier into the Terminator.  I don't discount the 
drug making a difference, but like that.  For at least those last few 
seconds of his life, that poor guy was one of the bravest and toughest 
people in the world.  Drugged or not.

Or, it may just be that he was being spun around so much he hadn't fallen, 
and the machinegunner was too anxious to wait for him to fall and just kept 
firing.  Weird flukes like that kind of thing happen fairly often.

It's a really ugly business to be in.

--Laning

PS  Oh and thanks for the advice on SR-25 and AR-10.  Now if we can only 
get my wife to be able to sleep at night if there's a firearm in the 
house.  Not gonna happen.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D99A5C.382DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20409.224111.2G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155951.01dc24b0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn on a 65 gram instead of 65 grain bullet:
>I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.
>
>69,562 Joules of energy
>1,130 joules of free recoil
>
>25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)


Tod, what was the free recoil of that elephant rifle again?  For 
comparison.  I found your earlier calculations on the M1, M16, and gauss 
rifle, which were two orders of magnitude lower and then some compared to 
the above 65 gram bullet.

Hm, I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and plug in numbers for known 
weapons and science fiction weapons from time to time.  Then post on a Web 
site so all interested parties can reference it from time to time.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:15:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:15:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>

From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>

     "It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over 
me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar."


Mr. Uhl,

     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what lobsters 
eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!
     Underwater, where those disgusting little buggers live, oils acts as 
odors do for we land animals.  Thus, the bait in each trap must release LOTS 
of nice oils for our shell-bound critters to sense and trail back to the 
trap.  Also, the bait must be refreshed every other day or so.  (The traps 
need to be checked that frequently too, the lobsters tend to eat one 
another.)
     Preparing bait requires:

One 55 gallon drum
One heavy cleaver
One oar or paddle
One piece of wood you don't mind ruining
Lots of "trash" fish
One strong stomach

     Roughly "cuisinart" each fish by chopping it briskly and roughly with 
the cleaver.  Either leave the pieces hanging together by strips of skin 
and/or bone (the mark of a real pro) or let the chunks collect on your 
cutting board.  When the chunks pile too high, drp them in the drum and tamp 
down hard with the paddle.  Repeat until you run out of fish or ruj out of 
drum.
     The next bit is the most important.  Seal the drum up and then let it 
sit in the sun for a couple of weeks at a minimum.  Every once in a while, 
pop the top and give the contents a violent stirring.
     After the bait has "matured" enough, you can put it to use in the bait 
"purses" for your traps.  You either hump the drum aboard or a couple of 5 
gallon pails of the stuff when you go out to check the traps.  As each trap 
is hauled aboard, you have a freshly filled, plastic purse ready to re-bait 
the trap.  The lobsterman removes and measures the damn things while you 
fish out the used purse and put to fresh on it it's place.  Then the empty 
trap and fresh bait gets heaved overboard.
     It get pretty routine after a while and your nose shuts down.  I 
suspect it must be a little like working in a slaughter house.  You just 
don't notice certain things anymore.
     The first time I opened a bait barrel, I fed the fishes until I ran out 
of "chum".  Ma Whipsnade wouldn't allow me to wear my lobstering clothes 
anywhere near the house.  I had to change in the shed out back and run into 
the cellar to wash in a galvanized tub there.  You don't get paid in money 
either, instead a certain number of trpas are "yours" and you can keep or 
sell whatever is in them.  Not a bad job, I got a boat and car out of it, 
but I was happy to start in the screw machine shop once I was legal.  
Chlorinated oil is nothing compared to bait!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen



_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:19:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:19:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <20020410.133548.-8347.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hey Everybody,

Please feel free to utilize my two new characters IYTU.
If you do, please pass back any updated stats, thank you.

Barista Corrt [roll the R's] - Vilani Hybrid [pick any world]
UPP 768786
18 years young
Very attractive, 
shoulder length blond hair, green eyes
5' 5" 115 lbs
34B-24-34
soft spoken, but tough
New job as a barmaid at Starbucks in Startown.


Barst Cortor - BarbarianBrave
UPP A98342
30 years
Survival-0, Sword-1 [broadsword], Hand Combat-2
Brutish appearance, scared muscular body
long black hair, black eyes
7 foot tall 300 lb
50" chest, 34 - 34
gruff, hash demeanor
New job as a bouncer at Starbucks in Startown.
[due to the brawl at the haul across town]


Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20410.140930.5r1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> jimv wrote:
>> Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
>> an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
>> move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
>> suppression, they move toward each other much faster
>> than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
>> I wrong?
>
> If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
> on each ion, then it is true.
>
> If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
> to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
> factor of 10.

Which causes *other* problems, because that changes the ratio of the
electromagnetic forces to the nuclear forces in the atom. And changing
the strength of the nuclear forces affects the stability of the nucleus
in other ways. 

Also, there are other "forces" involved in chemical reactions that
depend on the strength of the charges, but not on the *square* of the
strength (ie the don't follow an inverse square law).

So changing the charge affects those also. And not in proportion to
each other.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:23:56 2002
Subject: [TML] testing, Ignore
Message-ID: <B8DA068C.393E0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:26:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:26:46 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155951.01dc24b0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8DA0857.393E8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 1:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn on a 65 gram instead of 65 grain bullet:
>> I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.
>> 
>> 69,562 Joules of energy
>> 1,130 joules of free recoil
>> 
>> 25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)
> 
> 
> Tod, what was the free recoil of that elephant rifle again?  For
> comparison.  I found your earlier calculations on the M1, M16, and gauss
> rifle, which were two orders of magnitude lower and then some compared to
> the above 65 gram bullet.
> 
> Hm, I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and plug in numbers for known
> weapons and science fiction weapons from time to time.  Then post on a Web
> site so all interested parties can reference it from time to time.

a 9 lbs rifle firing a 500 gn slug at 2100 fps has a free recoil energy of
85 Joules.  Just use the form at http://travellercentral.com/rules/ke.html.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:29:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:29:07 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
References: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4A451.4020608@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Have to tip the guide as well.  Most expensive deer I ever 
> ate.  It's what happens when a culture is based entirely on a 
> layered bureaucracy.

That's what happens when you've had no real wilderness for hundreds and 
hundreds of years...you might as well have gone 'hunting' in a corral.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:30:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:30:34 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B8D9F3BB.38CFC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:32:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (listmom)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:32:01 2002
Subject: [TML] test
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204101430010.1171-100000@rhylanor>

this is a test


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:33:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Nick Wright)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:33:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
Message-ID: <001101c1e0d7$3860c120$a8fb883e@fg>

The BBC have reported on what the nattily dressed US soldier will be wearing
on tomorrow's battlefield.  It is a bit worrying though that uniforms will
be "nearly invisible" (4th para).  Where's the Sarge going to sew his
stripes?

Check out

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1908000/1908729.stm

I remain, etc, etc.

Nick Wright


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] List Problems
Message-ID: <B8DA09B3.393F4%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Sorry about the delayed mail, all.  Seems I has some file locking issues
with the list server.  I initially assumed the problem was do to some
systems changes I made, so I did a roll-back only to fins the prblem was
unrelated.

Mail seems to be flowing now.  Please report problems to
listmom@travellercentral.com

Thanks for your patience.

Tod


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:38:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:38:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Counterterrorism
References: <B8DA068C.393E0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <019c01c1e0e0$04f78130$09d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Gentles,

In addition to creating the new TNE sourcebook, finishing up the truly
fabulous T20 rules, and making sure the cats get fed, I'm also doing some
work in counter-terrorism.

Sadly, I don't get to shoot suicide bombers or anything. What I'm doing is
helping promote an organisaton called NSI which is dedicatd to various
anti-terrorist activities.

To this end I need to place articles and generally promote interest in the
organisation.

Anyone whho feels that they may be able to help, or with something to offer,
please contact me offlist.

The technology to prevent a new Sept 11th exists now, yet many of the
measures taken by our governments are nothing but placebos. We could change
that.

Anyone?

Regards

MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020410191917.B3737@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020411083544.A5842@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> I get the feeling that you're trying to change constants rather than
> looking at the problem as a closed system where all four fundamental
> forces are modified in the same ratio (actually, I'm still hazy on
> whether or not gravity should be included in this).

Gravity is essentially irrelevant, barring any unknown effects of
quantum gravity.  Besides, you would have to *strengthen* gravity to
get the same relative effects.  So it shouldn't have the same ratio as
other forces anyway.

Apart from that, your goal is to have the behaviour of atoms (and more
complex systems) behave in the same way as before inertial
suppression, correct?  This requires more than just changing the
strength of forces.


> To do so, I think we really need to look at the most simple
> problems, involving only a single atom or a pair of atoms.

OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
just one simple example.

Hence inertial suppression requires more than just changing the
strength of forces.  If you want the atoms to behave the same way, you
need to alter fundamental constants as well.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:42:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:42:45 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155047.01de3120@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018477349.495.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> 
> Give credit to the guy, not the drug.  Nobody at TL 8 or lower makes a drug
>  that can turn an average soldier into the Terminator.  I don't discount
> the  drug making a difference, but like that.  For at least those last few 
> seconds of his life, that poor guy was one of the bravest and toughest 
> people in the world.  Drugged or not.

Actually, no, the drug could easily be responsible.  Much of the reason for
people falling down when shot is that they know they ought to, and drugs can
dull the pain response and/or make you too stupid to realize you've been shot.

The fact that he stood there are got shot several times by an M60 may suggest
why the use of combat drugs is discouraged.  People who are heavily drugged are
not usually known for their good tactics.
> 
> Or, it may just be that he was being spun around so much he hadn't fallen, 
> and the machinegunner was too anxious to wait for him to fall and just kept
>  firing.  Weird flukes like that kind of thing happen fairly often.
> 
> It's a really ugly business to be in.
> 
> --Laning
> 
> PS  Oh and thanks for the advice on SR-25 and AR-10.  Now if we can only 
> get my wife to be able to sleep at night if there's a firearm in the 
> house.  Not gonna happen.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:44:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:44:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
References: <20020410195114.49017.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <014a01c1e0de$3d265b50$09d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>   >>
>   That's easily explained: Swords never run out of
> ammo, and are a lot harder to break... ;-P~
> 

A broken sword is still a weapon to be respected. This I know....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:46:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:46:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
 <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410182447.0390c460@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:37 PM 4/10/2002, laning wrote:
>Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
>detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination

Classic Traveller allowed a starship to determine if gas giants were 
present in another star system from a 1 parsec range.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:49:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:49:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGNCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Craig Berry <cberry@cine.net>
>
>You recall correctly, and in my mind this is sufficient to explain how the
>Terrans managed their initial victories while outnumbered and outgunned
>thousands to one (taking into account the full Vilani might).  I get the
>strong sense that the Ziru Sirka practiced "shoot the messenger"-style
>management a great deal; the status quo and normal operations were

This is my opinion, as well.  China in the 1700s-1800s operated in much the
same way.

>I am very strongly of the opinion that the local Vilani governor knew all
>about the Terrans; probably several of them did, over the century or two
>immediately preceding official contact.  Remember, the ZS was quite used
>to encountering minor human races as it expanded, and I'm sure there were
>exhaustively documented procedures and case studies on how to proceed with
>their integration into the ZS.  The Terrans simply didn't operate
>according to the 'rules', and the governor was terrified to report this
>fully to his superiors.  The rest is (future) history.

I think the Vegans are what we in contemporary times call the Grays.  They
have been surreptitiously visiting Earth for a while to help us develop into
a human force that can get rid of the Vilani, with whom the Vegans have
never really gotten along.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Lost Causes
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17951@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

The Dougster:
In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat 
in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?

Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public 
opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the 
region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.

Mikey:
The US were never really going to win that one. As Uncle Ho is fondly
remembered saying 'I am willing to lose 10 men for each one of yours'. Hell,
I think the toll in Vietnam for the conflict was about a million on the
Communist side. So given loses of 50k for the US that's like 20 to 1. 

Besides it's a bit hard to 'save' a country that won't save itself. 

My 0.02 of course, so don't roast me slowly over a verbal BBQ.

I'm studying Vietnam now at uni. I particularly enjoyed the battle of Ap Bac
(?), which got turned into a major propaganda piece about the South wiping
the floor with Communist insurgents. When the smoke cleared they found just
3 bodies....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:56:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:56:39 2002
Subject: [TML] test
References: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204101430010.1171-100000@rhylanor>
Message-ID: <3CB4BE9A.1155267C@premier.net>


listmom wrote:
> 
> this is a test

Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled in terror, and you
would not have been informed.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:59:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:59:21 2002
Subject: [TML] test 5, ignore
Message-ID: <B8DA0282.393D4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:00:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:00:52 2002
Subject: [TML] another test
Message-ID: <B8DA059C.393DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:03:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:03:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20410.144847.1G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> jimv wrote:
>> > in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is
>> > that if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we
>> > would prefer that neither of them drop.
>> 
>> Yes, that's one effect.  For example, light photons have sufficient
>> energy to cause certain chemical changes in pigments in the eye;
>> that's how we see.
>> 
>> If the chemical energies are a hundred times lower and Planck's
>> constant is unchanged, a light photon doesn't just affect sensitive
>> pigments, it rips electrons out of stable molecules and breaks
>> chemical bonds.  That's what we normally call "ionising radiation".
>> 
>> We can't just use light that has a hundred times lower frequency,
>> because it has a hundred times longer wavelength.  OK, I guess we can,
>> but it involves changing the speed of light...
>
> I get the feeling that you're trying to change constants rather than
> looking at the problem as a closed system where all four fundamental
> forces are modified in the same ratio (actually, I'm still hazy on
> whether or not gravity should be included in this). To do so, I think
> we really need to look at the most simple problems, involving only a
> single atom or a pair of atoms. Otherwise, we may be dealing with a
> system that is too complex to really analyze completely. I'd like to
> return to the previous example, involving electron orbits. I'm going
> to reiterate from my prevous post.

The problem is, different things depend on *different* ratios. 

Some depend on things like the charge to mass ratio of particles.
Others depend on things like the ratios of the *squares* of of things.
And some are things like square roots. Or weirder ratios. 

You *can't* make them all match. 
 
> you write:
>> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
>> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
>> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
>> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
>> well.
>
> Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
> energy level of an electron in an atom?

Momentum, charge, Planck's constant, maybe a few other things.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:05:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:05:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20410.141449.7E5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> jimv wrote:
>> > Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
>> > an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
>> > move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
>> > suppression, they move toward each other much faster
>> > than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
>> > I wrong?
>> 
>> If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
>> on each ion, then it is true.
>> 
>> If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
>> to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
>> factor of 10.
>
> Under the premise of the inertial suppression idea, inertia
> is defined as the electromagnetic drag caused by mass accellerating
> through the zero point field (essentially due to subatomic interactions
> with virtual photons). So, if this were the case, it might hold true
> that the EM force would be reduced by inertial suppression, at least if
> one assumes that EM forces are transferred via virtual photons, sort of
> like the way waves on the ocean are transferred through the water
> molecules making up the waves (you physicists on the list can probably
> laugh at this statement... I'm really showing my ignorance here).

That's a hypothesis that doesn't have a lot of backing. Nor are matters
that simple.

> Anyway,
> off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to make this
> work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the square-root of the
> inertial suppression factor. If we make that handwave, which is
> certainly a god-being-nice type to rule to make, then I'd imagine
> that we've got gravity & EM both covered. However, if anyone can
> provide a counterexample, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Alas, you've just changed to speed of light by doing this. 

Then there are thins like the fine structure constant:

u*c*e^2/2h

where
u = permeability of a vacuum
c = speed of light in a vacuum
e = charge of the electron
h = Plank's constant

Change the value of *that* and all sorts of stuff goes to hell.

Which means your changes have to be such that its value remains
unchanged. By the time you are done dinking around with that, things
have gotten *way* too complicated.

> Also, there's still the weak and strong forces to think about. Since
> weak is purportedly linked to EM, one would expect some sort of similar
> square-root drop off. As for the strong force, I have no idea. -Jim

The weak force and the electromagnetic force are different aspects of
the electro-weak force just as electric and magnetic field effects are
different aspects of the electromagnetic force (see Maxwells
equations).

The strong force and gravity (and the color force that quarks exert on
each other) may or may not be realated to the electr-weak forces in
various ways.

We can't achieve the energies required to check out the strong and
color forces, and gravity is so damned *weak* it's hard to experiment
with.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:07:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:07:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20410.143404.7i6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> You should likewise reduce the strength of the strong and weak forces.
>
> Okay... so I guess we need to suppose that all these forces get dropped
> by the same factor.

Alas, some effects that are important to trivial things like *life*
depend on various odd *powers* (square, square rooe 3/2 power, etc) of
the strength of these forces.

>> Now, just Planck's constant to deal with :)
>
> Okay... I'm totally clueless, but:
> E=hv, where h = planck's constant and v = frequency
> (note: i have no idea what i'm taking about)
> in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is that
> if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we would prefer
> that neither of them drop.

Another form has Planck's constant equalling the product of the
uncertainty in the positon and the uncertainty in the momentum of a
particle.

Planck's constant is behind *all* quantum effects. and it basicly says
how "granular" the universe is. 

Changing it by *tiny* amounts would have *major* effects on the way the
universe works.

>> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
>> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
>> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
>> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
>> well.
>
> Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
> energy level of an electron in an atom?

> I've heard that the atomic nucleus is held together by the interplay
> between the strong and weak forces, the strong force keeping the
> positively charged protons together while the weak force tries to
> rip them apart.

No. The electromagnetic repulsion of all those protons in the nucleus
tries to rip it apart. The weak force does stuff like hold neutrons
together (a neutron is effectively a "bound state" odf a proton, an
electron and an anti-neutrino). 

> I suppose that since this idea of taming the quantum
> foam should reduce both forces equally, the stability of the
> nucleus would be uneffected (the effects of the strong & weak force
> reductions should cancel out).

If only it was that simple. Among other things, the strong and weak
forces *don't* oney the inverse square law *and* they have a maximum
range. This is because they use exchange particles that have mass, as
opposed to the massless exchange particles (photons and gravitons) used
by the electromagnetic and gravitational forces. 

Oh shit....

There's another way to read that equation you gave up above. 

E = h*v

E = uncertainty in energy of a system
v = time interval
h = Planck's constant.

That's *how* exchange particles work. The energy of the virtual
particle is higher the shorter the time it has to exist (or vice
versa). Changing Planck's constant messes with that too. 

> However, I'm not sure how to handle the problem of electrons, which
> you mention above. But I'll try to tackle it anyway, so what follows
> it totally off the cuff. I'm guessing that the electromagnetic force
> keeps electrons attracted to the positively charged atomic nucleus
> and repulsed by each other, hence accounting for their movements
> (of course, this probably falls apart at some level, but bear with
> me). Well, I'm just guessing here, but if their movements are determined
> by the repulsive & attractive effects of the same force (electromagnetic),
> then reducing that force should have no net effect, as reduction in
> repulsion will be perfectly offset by the reduction in attraction.
> In short, and I'm no physics major, so correct me if I'm wrong,
> once again what I would expect is that these changes cancel out,
> resulting in there being no need to change Planck's constant.

Afraid not. 

For one thing, electrons are just barely what we normally think of as
particles. They aren't little billiard balls. They are more in the
nature of fuzzyt little "clouds". The electron is most likely *here*,
but could be clear over *there*. More like a ball of fog than anything
we are familiar wuith from everyday life.

I'd need a lot of time with books (and more recent exposure to quantum
mechanics) to even begn to figure out what would happen at the atomic
and subatomic levels.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Worst Job in the world
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17953@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Robert A. Uhl
It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over
me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar.

I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

Mikey:
Here in government service we like to bitch and moan about our lot in life.
I just forwarded this on to my co-workers to remind us all we don't have it
so bad.

Thanks man. 

PS I once got fired from cotton chipping, one of the more menial jobs in
life and one where ex convicts can find gainful employment. I was forced to
hitch into town (30 klicks) and was picked up by an insane Kiwi shearer (he
looked like John English for you Oz types), whose dayglo orange combi was
circa 60's and decorated in peace stickers. He proceeded to laugh manically
and go for three animals with his vehicle that made the mistake in trying to
cross the road. 

I got dropped off early. 

The whole trip, which involved catching a lift with a friend and staying in
the worst trailer park (aka cravan park) in western civilisation, ended up
costing $80.

I was not meant for menial work. 

Ob Trav: Travellers are not meant for menial work either. That's why
invariably they end up doing something illegal. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F221lf8nFJ3VTPlu4kA0000f71e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB575BB.18754.8358A9@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 15:20, Sam D wrote:

> Tod Glen wrote:>Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 
> over 7.62x51mm
> >ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
> >is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
> >any particular caliber.
> 
> It is a tuff call.  It appears that the 5.56mm does actually make bigger 
> wounds, as long as there is sufficient tissue to penetrate, as long as the 
> velocity is above 2700 fps.  With an M16 that is like 200- yards; with the 
> M4 it is only 100-140 yards.  After that range, you are better off with the 
> bigger round.  And the 7.62x51 certainly penetrates through cover better at 
> all ranges.  But however you weigh those tradeoffs, there is no doubt that 
> you are going to have to be carrying around an extra 5-10 pounds of gear 
> with the bigger rifle.

Excuse me? How much ammo are you thinking of? For dangerous game 
hunting (the original question) 20 rounds is more than enough, and 
there's no real need for a 10 pound battle rifle. A 7.5 pound light 
sporter will do fine (and that's what my father's PH Magestic from the 
early 60's weighed with scope, etc.), and that's less weight than an 
M16A2.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:40:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:40:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D99957.382D9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 7:25, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/9/02 11:36 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
> 
> > And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting
> > results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting
> > dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or
> > .308?  Or something else?
> 
> You forgot to add:  "Using ball ammunition only".
> 
> We are speaking of military weapons here, so let's get the ammo right.
> There is no question that if ammunition selection is not restricted,
> 7.62x51mm is more lethal.
> 
> Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 over 7.62x51mm
> ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
> is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
> any particular caliber.

I think that this depends a lot on the exact game. If it's leopards, 
small lions or people the 5.56 could well be better, but on thick-
skinned game (not that there's a huge amount in that size range), like 
wild boar the 7.62x51 even with ball would be a better choice IMO, 
because it has better penetration. All the wounding potential in the 
world won't help you if the bullet stops on the outside of a boar's 
shoulderblade.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 4:38 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

>> You forgot to add:  "Using ball ammunition only".
>> 
>> We are speaking of military weapons here, so let's get the ammo right.
>> There is no question that if ammunition selection is not restricted,
>> 7.62x51mm is more lethal.
>> 
>> Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 over 7.62x51mm
>> ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
>> is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
>> any particular caliber.
> 
> I think that this depends a lot on the exact game. If it's leopards,
> small lions or people the 5.56 could well be better, but on thick-
> skinned game (not that there's a huge amount in that size range), like
> wild boar the 7.62x51 even with ball would be a better choice IMO,
> because it has better penetration. All the wounding potential in the
> world won't help you if the bullet stops on the outside of a boar's
> shoulderblade.

I think the hint was 180-200 lbs dangerous game (meaning people)

My first choice for all around game hunting of large animals (over 150 lbs)
and using non-expanding bullets would probably be my .458 Witworth.  It is
reasonably accurate to about 200 yards with express sites ( a ghost ring
would be preferable, but not 'right').  I can load anywhere from  55 - 72
grains of 4895 and go with bullets from 300-500+ grains.  My 'plinking' load
is a 405 gn hard cast bullet in front of 62 gns of 4895.  Plenty of bang for
just about anything.  I suspect the 500 gn monolithic solids would work well
on most game too, as well as the occasional car.

Note that this is strictly a short range load.  No 600 meter head shots.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>

Starship Insurance - Theft and Casualty - Claims

Having dutifully obtained your Theft and Casualty insurance, and having paid
your premiums on time and in full every month, you find yourself set upon by
pirates just short of jump point.  You are careful to respond to them in a
way that will not void your policy (we'll get to that later) and they wind
up taking your ship and leaving you adrift in an escape pod.

It's time to file your theft claim, whereupon your insurer will promptly pay
you. (Hysterical laughter slowly subsides.)

Basics of filing a claim:  The claim must be filed in a timely manner.  The
insured must take steps to mitigate damages.

Timely filing of a claim simply means to report your loss to your agent or a
claims representative a soon as possible.

Mitigation of damages means a reasonable exercise of common sense and effort
to ensure that your loss doesn't get worse, and that (if possible) it will
get better.  In the event of theft, reporting the theft to law enforcement
and other authorities would be a part of mitigation.  Damage should be dealt
with immediately to prevent further damge.  If one of the power regulators
is spiking in a way that endangers the jump-drive, a smart policy-holder
will reroute power around the faulty regulator, or delay jump until a
replacement can be had.  If the policy-holder ignores the power regulator
problem, attempts jump without dealing with it, and slags his J-drive, the
insurance company will likely decide to cover the regulator but not the
J-drive.  Why?  The policy-holder took no steps to mitigate damages.

Failure to file the claim in a timely manner, as well failure to mitigate,
can both be flags for insurance fraud.  Other fraud flags could be (but
certainly wouldn't be limited to):  recent purchase of policy, recent
increase in coverage or additions of riders, key crewmembers who can't be
located, vessels recent past can't be accounted for, etc.

When a claim is filed, the insurance company assigns an adjustor.  The
adjustor's job is to "adjust" the amount paid to the policyholder based upon
the covarage of the policy and the circumstances surrounding the claim.  If
at any step in the process the adjustor can find a reason to deny the claim,
the insurance company wins, the policy-holder loses, and the adjuster gets
an "attabeing" from the company.

One of the first steps the adjustor will take is to gather all relevant
documents they can.  First, because it is readily available, would be a copy
of the policy and all riders as well as the policy-holder's premium payment
history.  If the policy-holder (hereafter p-h) missed a payment, and
coverage was not in effect at the time of loss: claim denied.

Next the adjustor would look at insurance loss report(s) filed by the p-h
(not just for this claim but for any past claims of the p-h -- the adjustor
has to look for those fraud flags.)  Adjustor will further review police and
system defense authority reports, maintenance and repair records, ship's
log, ship's officer's logs, statements taken from the ship's officers and
crew, police and defense officials, and any witnesses to the loss.

Pursuant to all this, the adjustor will use the services of one or more
field investigators, who may be employees of the insurance company, or may
be independent investigators working on a contract basis.  The investigator
will be collecting documents, interviewing and taking statements from
sophonts, examining and documenting damage to the vessel, examing and
documenting the scene of loss, and generally doing legwork for the adjustor.
(Remember, the adjustor handles more than one claim at a time.)

Processing claims where the loss takes place outside a system where an
adjustor is present will be a drawn out process.  A claims decision
involving a loss of the magnitude of a starship would probably take the
better part of a year to process, even with instantaneous communication.

Sometimes the insurance company will actually pay a claim.  If the ship was
damaged, p-h will be paid for repair of damage or replacement of systems
(minus deductible.) Note that such repair and replacement will have already
long since been done in most cases.  The average owner-operator must keep
travelling in order to remain economically viable.

If the ship suffered damage that would cost more to repai than the ship is
worth the ship will be declared a total loss. Same thing if the ship was
stolen.  Note that if the insurer pays out on a total loss, the ship (or
what's left of it) becomes the property of the insurance company.  If the
ship is recovered from the thieves or found in an interstellar chop shop,
the insurance company will be the entity entitled to have the vessel.
(Presumably salvage law would kick in after some period prescribed by
black-letter law, at which point the ship would belong to whoever recovered
it.)

More later.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Near Star List - it's growing
Message-ID: <200204110010.DUF04546@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I listen to Stardate on NPR every evening, and today they 
were talking about the stars within 4 parsecs (see the map at 
their website stardate.org).  Apparently, there are more 
stars than previously known within a "short" distance of the 
Sun.

One example is a search for nearby stars -- some of our 
closest neighbors in all the universe. 

The project is headed by Todd Henry of Georgia State 
University. Team members are searching the heavens with 
fairly small telescopes in Chile. They're aiming mainly at 
faint, cool stars known as red dwarfs. Many of our closest 
neighbors are red dwarfs. But they're so faint that not a 
single one is visible to the unaided eye. 

The astronomers are watching the stars for many months to see 
which ones move against the background of other stars -- a 
motion that reveals which stars are close by. It's like 
holding up your finger and looking at it first with one eye, 
then the other; the finger appears to move back and forth 
against the background. 

By measuring this motion, the astronomers have discovered 13 
new stars within 33 light-years of Earth. The closest of the 
bunch is just 12 light-years away, making it the 20th closest 
known star system. 

________________
When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 16:51, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I think the hint was 180-200 lbs dangerous game (meaning people)

I assumed that we were looking at choices for other dangerous game to 
see if it illuminated the dissucssion of what should be used a people 
(a very thin-skinned type of dangerous game).
 
> My first choice for all around game hunting of large animals (over
> 150 lbs) and using non-expanding bullets would probably be my .458
> Witworth.  It is reasonably accurate to about 200 yards with express
> sites ( a ghost ring would be preferable, but not 'right').  I can
> load anywhere from  55 - 72 grains of 4895 and go with bullets from
> 300-500+ grains.  My 'plinking' load is a 405 gn hard cast bullet in
> front of 62 gns of 4895.  Plenty of bang for just about anything.  I
> suspect the 500 gn monolithic solids would work well on most game
> too, as well as the occasional car. 

My first choice would probably be a .375 H&H. Much though I admire 
Weatherbys they cost too much and are generally over-powered if you're 
using solids - they'd tend to horribly over-penetrate anything but the 
heaviest game. With expansive bullets I'd drop to a .338 Winchester or 
.340 Weatherby unless in Africa, in which case the .375's would be the 
way to go, IMO. .416s and .458/.460s are good vs buffs, elephants, etc. 
but aren't long-range rounds, so you'd need a second rifle for those 
300-500 yard shots on eland, etc.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F195GoE1k8LN6FWe7Xl0000b978@hotmail.com>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

     "This is my opinion, as well.  China in the 1700s-1800s operated in 
much the same way."


Mr. Goffin,

     I don't like to stretch the Imperial China-Ziru Sirka analogy too far.  
1700 China was already behind in the technology race, despite some very 
notable and very early firsts; compasses, stern post rudders, gunpowder, 
paper, printing, etc.  They just never put it all together for a variety of 
reasons.  The Ming dynasty actually had to beg the Jesuits for cannon 
founders in the mid-1600s while they were tangling with the Manchus.  Yuo, 
West-to-East tehnology transfers were happening that early.
     The Ziru Sirka, while stagnant, is ahead of the Terrans in the tech 
race.  Sure the Terrans can catch up, if they're given the time.  I just 
can't quite understand why they were given the time.
     The Imperial China the "Southern Barbarians" began contacting in the 
1500's was in one of it's disintergration phases.  The Ming were on the way 
out, the Manchus were trying to get in, pirates and warlords abounded.  The 
periphary was unravelling, Taiwan was a pirate kingdom that the Chinese paid 
the Dutch to tackle for them, Korea either lost to the Japanese or 
independent, Tibet gone, the far west lost to various horse peoples.  The 
Ming were straining every nerve just to keep the lid on, and they failed.  
After them, the Manchu were nothing more than a foreign dynasty simply 
trying to remain in power.  They restored nothing of China's former power or 
borders, even losing more territory as their dynasty went on.
     Does any of that sound like the Ziru Sirka to you?
     When they met the Terrans, the Vilani were keeping a ZS boot on the 
necks of umpteen minor races, races and home worlds that the Vilani were 
able to keep quiet even as the Terrans racked up victory after victory.  
There is no mention of these plethora of minor races rising in revolt, all 
we hear about is their "welcoming their Terran liberators."  How were the 
Vilani able to keep all those minor races down, how were they able to play 
power politics with Vargr merc pawns, how were they able to still do all of 
that, and STILL lose to a single system polity?

     "I think the Vegans are what we in contemporary times call the Grays.  
They have been surreptitiously visiting Earth for a while to help us develop 
into a human force that can get rid of the Vilani, with whom the Vegans have 
never really gotten along."

     That's part of my take on the whole problem.  The Terran Confederation 
victory over the Ziru Sirka is more along the lines of Cortez versus the 
Aztecs; i.e lots of native allies, and most decidely not a case of "Terra 
Uber Alles."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:38:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:38:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
<snip consideration of various calibers>

I'm trying to make up my mind between the .375 and the .338.  
Since I'm in N. America, it may be the .338. 

The situations that Traveller characters find themselves in 
are rarely more than a few opponents, and most are armed 
(depending on the GM, of course) with pistols and short range 
weapons.  In one past campaign, I did rather well with a 
single-shot falling block rifle in .375 H&H.  I was playing a 
PH, and this was my "walking about" rifle.  I was infamous 
for killing three other player characters by shooting down 
their custom air raft (first shot hit the driver through the 
front, the second shot disabled the powerplant and the other 
two plummeted to their deaths).

If you also consider that Traveller gun combat is at about 
the same range as a Cape Buffalo encounter, and you're 
probably going to live for about as many shots (two, maybe 
three), then I think that whatever makes a good Cape Buffalo 
weapon might make a good Traveller combat weapon.

Let's see.  We'll make it .416 Remington, since we can still 
get Speer tungsten core solids. 

The rifle should be a 4-shot controlled-feed pre-64 
Winchester action (with fixed ejector).  Barrel length should 
be 22 inches, and we'll go with a muzzle brake.  The stock 
should be optimized for firing on your hind legs, and we'll 
put a Trijicon Reflex sight on top, with express sights just 
in case that gets broken.

A PH should be able to get two or three quick aimed shots off 
with something like this.  I haven't seen many Traveller-
style combats last more than a few combat rounds. And you'll 
only have to hit another human *once* with something like 
this.  Tod might make it a .458, though.

Get yourself a pouch that holds 20 rounds, maybe keep 40 
rounds in your pack.  More than enough for most Traveller 
adventures.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDHDKAA.tml@downport.com>

Chumming is for guys not strong enough to be sternman :p

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade

>     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what
lobsters
>eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!

And just think, filters (clams, oysters, etc.) eat what settles on the
bottom after it went through the lobster or crab. Shrimp eat floaties. But
I'd still eat a lobster before I'd chow down on their landlubber cousins,
the spiders :x



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 19:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 10 18:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
In-Reply-To: <001101c1e0d7$3860c120$a8fb883e@fg>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410180651.009f12d0@mindspring.com>

At 10:32 PM 4/10/02 +0100, you wrote:
>The BBC have reported on what the nattily dressed US soldier will be wearing
>on tomorrow's battlefield.  It is a bit worrying though that uniforms will
>be "nearly invisible" (4th para).  Where's the Sarge going to sew his
>stripes?

Considering the stripes worn on the BDU are barely visible now, I don't 
think it is that big of a deal.

I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet 
cover.  In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 19:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 18:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410182447.0390c460@mail.qrc.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>
 <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
 <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020410205024.00a6ead0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 06:25 PM 4/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>At 03:37 PM 4/10/2002, laning wrote:
>>Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
>>detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination
>
>Classic Traveller allowed a starship to determine if gas giants were 
>present in another star system from a 1 parsec range.

I would suggest looking at Adventure 4(?) Leviathan and AM4: Zhodani for 
information on explorations.  Another good website would be 
http://www.securityleak.net/slm/index.html and check out Security Leak #5 
for a detailed look at the Zhodani Core Expeditions.

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
References: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <fos9busmdg2u2fv6oem9hlloq0u375f62e@4ax.com>

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 20:12:13 +0000, "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

>From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
>
>     "It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all =
over=20
>me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
>clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
>from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
>awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar."
>
>Mr. Uhl,
>
>     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what =
lobsters=20
>eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!

We seem to be in the midst of "onedownsmanship" here, with each
account somehow managing to add to the general disgusting flavor of
the thread.

Unless all and sundry truly wish to see an avalanche of reports of
keyboard kills due to the ever rising gorge of the list readers, I
sincerely hope that our talented TML writers bend their very effective
and evocative writing skills to subjects less nauseating.

I do, however, appreciate those descriptions we've seen thus far.  I
pity of character (either literary or RPG) who earns the need to fill
similar roles.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
Message-ID: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).  
But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You 
know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or 
perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.

Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I 
need a bit of camp now and then.
________________
When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:38:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:38:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDHDKAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4F721.DEF69043@sympatico.ca>

Swordy wrote:

> Chumming is for guys not strong enough to be sternman :p
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
>
> >     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what
> lobsters
> >eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!

The job I truly hated, regularly cleaning backed up greased traps in a Burger
King.

A friend job that I fear to visualize:

Giving enemas to elephants, with a 27 pound suppository in my right hand (
gloved to the neck) and a hose in my left hand.  A broom and a shovel for the
resultant mess, nearby.

Although, I would take that over being the individual at a dog / cat food
company who does the taste testing to ensure the labels are correct.

OR

The number one job I do not want to know about or visualize:

The person at a thermometer company who personally tests every rectal
thermometer to meet the print on the packages that reads: "Every one of our
product personally tested to ensure quality."

Michael



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cory Davis)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>

Hi all

just a quick comment, I have been reading M16 vs everything else topic with 
interest and big game hunting rifles just came up, and I realised in all 
the descriptions of peoples campaigns, its all gauss rifles and FGMPs

I just like to say in our games (GT) the weapon of choice were always Gauss 
- LAG (basically, a LEMG-20 with a shorter barrel, I made it up 6 months 
before Ground Forces came out) as with a wide range of ammo it can do all 
sorts of things

we have used fletchettes for unarmoured targets, the APFSDSHD will 
penetrate about 300DR and once we used baton rounds when we had a job as 
repo men (they didn't mark the ship up too much). the best thing about them 
was after a firefight they don't leave many holes, in fact even if fighting 
opponents in battledress on board a ship, afterwards the ship is usually 
still useable, I say usually once we accidently broke the powerplant

I've always thought that due to the high level of personal armour in 
traveller, at high TLs weapons would be designed for penetration rather 
than ROF or explosive fragmentation

oh well back to the discussion of the pros and cons of M16s and big game rifles

(our other game is a pulp horror game and the elephant gun is a staple)

cheers

Cory


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:09:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:09:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
In-Reply-To: <200203310432.DAH01551@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4C5A5.15107.6D8006@localhost>

Hi John,

A little late (as usual, I'm many days behind in reading the 
TML), but I'd like to see a copy of this as well (or let me know
if you've posted it somewhere and I'll get it there).

thanks!

Rob D.

On 30 Mar 2002 at 23:32, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Just finished going through what will be a rather long 
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units 
> in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may 
> differ.
> 
> But..  I need more input.  I've just moved a current day 
> document a fair number of years into the future (out to TL10, 
> so far), and I would like to take it a bit further, say TL12.
> 
> I am interested in anyone's input concerning what might be 
> standard operating procedure (instructions to individual 
> soldiers, teams, and platoons).  Some of the detail I have is 
> down to the items to carry.
> 
> I am especially interested in what might be SOP in regards to 
> weapons, employment of specific weapons (such as, "always use 
> the plasma gun to break contact").
> 
> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing 
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages 
> so far.
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
> 

--
Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com
'Calvin, we will not have an anatomically correct snowman!'




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:10:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:10:48 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Sci Fi Books that are Ob Trav
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1791D@r1clex01.cbr.defe
 nce.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410230528.01ae0498@192.168.0.1>

At 01:59 PM 4/8/2002 +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
>I know I am a tad late in this thread but it occurred to be the other day
>that a very Ob Trav type series of books were the Amtrak Wars by Patrick
>Tilley. Hi Tech underground civilisation fighting mad max esq mutated
>barbarians. The descriptions of the underground settlements seem very trav,
>monorails, life support levels, you name it.
>
>I'm re-reading them now. I liked them as a teenager and, ten years later,
>they're still pretty good.
>
>In fact it would make a great GURPS sourcebook. Doug Berry come on down.

For more examples of Traveller, and Traveller like fiction, take a look at:
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/travfic.html>


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:13:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:13:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA> <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <20020411131133.A6552@freeman.little-possums.net>

Antony Farrell wrote:
> Contrary to popular opinion there are stars in the gaps between the
> arms, the spirals themselves being defined by bright stars. But as
> to how many stars and whether fuel sources could be found there?

There should be quite a few red and brown dwarfs in there, just fewer
bright stars.  The actual stellar density isn't a lot lower, as far as
I've heard.  On top of that, there's bound to be a whole bunch of
sub-planetary objects that should make excellent fuel sources.


> Assuming the ships were built to TL14 or 15 standard this means jump
> 5 or 6 maximum, and it is likely that in the "gaps" fuel sources may
> be further apart than this.

I doubt it.  Red dwarf stars aren't expected to be much less numerous
than in the arms, which means about 2 parsecs should get you from one
to the next.  They would have to be 30 times sparser to have a
moderate chance of reaching a dead-end, even if the ships only carry
one jump worth of fuel.  More likely they can carry enough for two
5-parsec jumps (or five 3-parsec ones) by carrying methane, ammonia,
and/or water instead of pure liquid hydrogen.  They can refine it
between jumps if they reach an area without hydrogen.  If the ships
can reduce volume by collapsing empty tanks, they can get even
further on a full load of fuel.

With good TL 12 sensors (e.g. dedicated sensor platforms which extend
after jump), they should be able to spot gas giants from tens of
parsecs away without any trouble.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <200204101359.DTL04671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204101359.DTL04671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020411132024.B6552@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> This backup power generation is probably nuclear fission, which
> allows the ship to potentially go without hydrogen (albeit without
> jumping anywhere) for some time.

I doubt it.  At Traveller tech levels, nuclear fusion is far more
efficient.  It is also far easier to collect fuel :)


> You may also remember Annic Nova.

I remember the rather ... vigorous ... discussion over it :/


> So let's consider a ship with a nuclear fission base 
> powerplant (to keep everyone nice and warm, and provide a 
> little extra power to charge jump accumulators a la Annic 
> Nova).

If you do that, you've just invented a starship that doesn't need jump
fuel at all, with all the strategic implications that follow.


> There might even be additional closed-cycle hydrogen/oxygen 
> fuel cells.

Why?  The chemical energy stored in 100 tons of fuel cells is about
that found in 1 kilogram of fusion fuel.  You're better off ditching
the fuel cells and putting in extra LHyd tankage.  Better still, put
in water tanks and run the stuff through your fuel processor.  Breathe
some of the waste oxygen and dump the rest.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020411004005.5784B27A85@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020410205654.00a53ce0@mailhost.efn.org>

>     When they met the Terrans, the Vilani were keeping a ZS boot on the
>necks of umpteen minor races, races and home worlds that the Vilani were
>able to keep quiet even as the Terrans racked up victory after victory.
>There is no mention of these plethora of minor races rising in revolt, all
>we hear about is their "welcoming their Terran liberators."

Riiiiiight.  And the United States singlehandedly beat Hitler and liberated 
Europe.  Just ask any contemporary 'Merkun.  (Okay, maybe the Limeys helped 
us out some, but not those dirty Reds, no sir.  And definitely not the 
French - all they know how to do is surrender.  What?  The Chinese?  Were 
they *in* WW2?)


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <20020410122225.B21755@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020411041811.1A229279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/10/02 at 12:22 PM,  "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> said:

>It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over
>me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
>clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
>from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
>awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar.

>I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

That sounds like K'kree hell. Only, they'd then have to *eat* their
work. <g>

It also reminds me of Regina UpPort's famous "Stuff on a Stick"
kiosk...that's where all the left over bits end up.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <no.id> from "John T. Kwon" at Apr 10, 2002 10:36:32 PM
Message-ID: <200204110433.g3B4Xpo25315@shell1.aracnet.com>

> Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).  
> But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You 
> know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or 
> perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.

I've always thought that the 2nd Series of 'Tom Swift' books would make for
some interesting background for a game.  The 1st series would probably make
good background for a 'Steam Punk' game.  Unfortunatly I've never gotten
ahold of any of the 'Tom Corbett' books.
 
> Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I 
> need a bit of camp now and then.

I picked up a copy a few years ago when it was reprinted, but have never
played it.  There is also GURPS: Lensman.

			Zane

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410023924.027e4ad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020411045414.13A9B279F9@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/10/02 at 02:42 AM,  laning <laning@wizard.net> said:

>At 10:46 AM 4/10/02 +1000, Mikey (Michael Hughes) wrote: >PBEM:
>>
>>I am thinking about running a PBEM D&D game for a friend. Does anyone know
>>of a How To website out there for running PBEM RPG sessions?

>I was thinking there's a need for the same thing.  Or at least will
>soon be  a need.  Perhaps interested parties should form a new
>mailing list, and  person or persons on that list be appointed to
>cull together an FAQ for WWW  posting?

http://www.pbem.com/  
    (how too's, mailing list server, ads for players and games,
utilities)

    http://www.pbem.com/howto/harrigan.html
        ("Running a Successful PBeM Campaign")

    http://www.pbem.com/howto/argosy.txt
        ("An Argosy of PBEM Advice", also accessable through pbem.com)

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/1999/11/19/text_gaming/index.html
    ("Word Games" from _Salon Magazine_, compares PBEM to other forms)

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/5835/soapbox.html
    ("PBEM Advice")

http://phoenyx.net/pbemlist.html
    (Phoenyx.net: list server, player and game ads, discussion lists)

http://shatteredworld.8m.com/advice.html
    ("Running Your Own PBEM": links to several articles)

http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Role-Playing/RPG.html
    ("What is roleplaying?")

And once you finish reading all that...<g>...you can come lurk in one,
or more, of my PBEM roleplaying games.  


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:12:13PM +0000
References: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020410225606.A23319@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:12:13PM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>
> The lobsterman removes and measures the damn things while you 
> fish out the used purse and put to fresh on it it's place.

For some value of `fresh'...

:-)

What a nasty sounding concoction.  OTOH, it almost sounds like the
_proper_ way to make Roman fish sauce.  For that, one gets a good mess
of fish and cleans them, then puts a layer of salt at the bottom of a
barrel.  Alternate layers of fish and salt up to the top, covering
over with a good bit of salt.  Store in the right conditions and a
kind of fermentation takes place in which the muscles dissolve and the
bones and scales break apart.  Eventually one opens the barrel and
drains off the liquid, leaving behind a gritty dregs.  The liquid is,
essentially, salty fish water.

Not nearly as disgusting as it sounds, I'm told.  Couldn't get me to
try it, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Taliban representative was explaining the good the Taliban had done
for the country.  He started his statement with `We have disarmed the
people...'                          --CNN special: Inside Afghanistan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:12:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:12:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20410.144847.1G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 10, 2002 02:48:47 PM
Message-ID: <200204110412.g3B4CU601389@localhost.uia.net>

Leonard writes:
> The problem is, different things depend on *different* ratios. 
> 
> Some depend on things like the charge to mass ratio of particles.
> Others depend on things like the ratios of the *squares* of of things.
> And some are things like square roots. Or weirder ratios. 
> 
> You *can't* make them all match. 

Even if all four fundamental forces & inertia (i.e. apparent
mass) drop simultaneously by the same factor? Wouldn't then
the ratios between these values (and those other values based
on them) all stay the same? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020411083544.A5842@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 11, 2002 08:35:44 AM
Message-ID: <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>

> Apart from that, your goal is to have the behaviour of atoms (and more
> complex systems) behave in the same way as before inertial
> suppression, correct?  This requires more than just changing the
> strength of forces.

The goal was to theoretically examine inertial suppression as a
means for making high accelleration (say anywhere from 50g to 1000g)
doable for a STL-based RPG, so that we'd be able to have speedy
interstellar travel from a subjective viewpoint (a few days to a few
weeks from the viewpoint of the crew, although it would be years
or even decades from the viewpoint of those not taking the trip).

In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
physics as we know it, and both of you know a lot more about
physics than I do, so it seems that I'm going to have to relent
and give up on this idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes
infeasible, and we're left with FTL (which has already been done
to death). Ah well... -Jim

> > To do so, I think we really need to look at the most simple
> > problems, involving only a single atom or a pair of atoms.
> 
> OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
> the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
> a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
> strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
> hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
> when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
> decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
> just one simple example.

Most of this flies over my head, but I'll see if I can figure it out and
then get back to ya later... -Jim
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>

Greetings!

In many of the games I've run or played in, the weapon of choice for short 
range combat is invariably a 10-gauge drum fed automatic shotgun (modeled 
after the Berlinetta (sp?) that some folks used to call the "vroom broom" 
or "street sweeper"). There are two things that we found strike terror in 
the hearts of the NPCs (and sometimes other players):

         1) The sound of a shotgun action being worked
         2) The realization that somebody might think shooting white 
phosphorus rounds looked like a good idea

The second point didn't occur until after I had unloaded several rounds 
into a building of hostiles.  It seems that using staggered loads of 
different types (HEAP, HE, WP, Mercury Fulminate, KEAP, and Flechettes) had 
never occurred to anybody else in the game and the damage to the hostiles 
was sort of mind boggling for them.  :-)

Of course we could also talk about the 90cm grenade launcher that turns 
people into portable artillery units.........

I love things that go *BOOM*!   ;-)

Best regards,

Charles

At 12:37 PM 4/11/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Hi all
>
>just a quick comment, I have been reading M16 vs everything else topic 
>with interest and big game hunting rifles just came up, and I realised in 
>all the descriptions of peoples campaigns, its all gauss rifles and FGMPs
>
>I just like to say in our games (GT) the weapon of choice were always 
>Gauss - LAG (basically, a LEMG-20 with a shorter barrel, I made it up 6 
>months before Ground Forces came out) as with a wide range of ammo it can 
>do all sorts of things
>
>we have used fletchettes for unarmoured targets, the APFSDSHD will 
>penetrate about 300DR and once we used baton rounds when we had a job as 
>repo men (they didn't mark the ship up too much). the best thing about 
>them was after a firefight they don't leave many holes, in fact even if 
>fighting opponents in battledress on board a ship, afterwards the ship is 
>usually still useable, I say usually once we accidently broke the powerplant
>
>I've always thought that due to the high level of personal armour in 
>traveller, at high TLs weapons would be designed for penetration rather 
>than ROF or explosive fragmentation
>
>oh well back to the discussion of the pros and cons of M16s and big game 
>rifles
>
>(our other game is a pulp horror game and the elephant gun is a staple)
>
>cheers
>
>Cory
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411013014.029c3e10@pop.wizard.net>

At 04:51 PM 4/10/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I think the hint was 180-200 lbs dangerous game (meaning people)

Precisamundo.  The idea is what you are shooting at will and can gladly 
kill you if you give it the chance.  Different from trying to avoid chasing 
your deer while it runs across half the county before bleeding to death.


>My 'plinking' load
>is a 405 gn hard cast bullet in front of 62 gns of 4895.

LOL, that's some pretty serious plinking.  :->


>Plenty of bang for
>just about anything.  I suspect the 500 gn monolithic solids would work well
>on most game too, as well as the occasional car.

Always handy when your daughter gets old enough to date teenaged boys in 
hot rods.

>Note that this is strictly a short range load.  No 600 meter head shots.

Understood.

--Laning





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:32:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:32:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410222548.02170a50@mail.verizon.net>

Oh boy do I remember it, and somewhere I have the rules packed away.

In fact, I was having a discussion this afternoon with a coworker about 
whether anybody would ever have the testicular fortitude to make a series 
of movies based on the Lensman or Family D'Alembert series. The Japanese 
did an animated version of the Lensman series in the 80s, but we're pretty 
well convinced that in this politically correct time that either the 
studios would edit the jingoism right out of the movie or just say no.

Of course, somewhere I still have notes on a Lensman campaign from a few 
years ago.........

Then again, I think a fun game would be set in Harrison's Stainless Steel 
Rat universe (in fact, I've played in that setting several times).

An interesting game might be one that is either based on Asimov's 
Foundation series, Robot series, or just on "The Caves of Steel".

Best regards,

Charles



At 10:36 PM 4/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).
>But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You
>know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or
>perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.
>
>Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I
>need a bit of camp now and then.
>________________
>When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, 
>they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often 
>use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters 
>of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes 
>over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. 
>Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think 
>most would consider truly lamentable.
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F148K7S8MyBuN6QXhY00000aa29@hotmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn writes:

>Excuse me? How much ammo are you thinking of? For dangerous game
>hunting (the original question) 20 rounds is more than enough, and
>there's no real need for a 10 pound battle rifle. A 7.5 pound light
>sporter will do fine (and that's what my father's PH Magestic from the
>early 60's weighed with scope, etc.), and that's less weight than an
>M16A2.

I interpreted the original question as inquiring about stopping power, using 
a theoretical human sized dangerous animal to gain insight into what caliber 
would be appropriate for stopping a dangerous human ("And I'm curious if the 
following question will produce interesting results").  If you were really 
interested in shooting dangerous game, and not the analogy, of course a 
sporter rifle and a less ammo would be appropriate.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:36:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:36:23 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>; from res0i3sf@verizon.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:25:21PM -0700
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au> <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20020410233434.B23469@4dv.net>

I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
inexpensive ammunition.  There are all sorts of nice & nifty rifles,
and I realise that the ammunition's not going to be cheap--but I'm
really not up to paying 50c a round unless I really, really have to.

Thanks much!

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their
pockets for new vocabulary.                     --James D. Nicoll

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
References: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411013453.029c0450@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert Boleyn says:

>My first choice would probably be a .375 H&H. Much though I admire
>Weatherbys they cost too much and are generally over-powered if you're
>using solids - they'd tend to horribly over-penetrate anything but the
>heaviest game. With expansive bullets I'd drop to a .338 Winchester or
>.340 Weatherby unless in Africa, in which case the .375's would be the
>way to go, IMO. .416s and .458/.460s are good vs buffs, elephants, etc.
>but aren't long-range rounds, so you'd need a second rifle for those
>300-500 yard shots on eland, etc.

Those are the same kinds of conclusions I made from studying books about 
this kind of stuff about 20 years ago.

People who are liking lighter rounds are also exceptionally skilled shots 
and I think factoring in their ability at shot placement more than I myself 
would be comfortable with.  Heard way too many stories from excellent shots 
who lost deer that they good pretty good hits on using .30-'06.  I'm not 
saying they won't get their one-shot kills with lighter rounds.  Just that 
I'd rather not rely on that kind of thing if it were me.

Some of the recent posts on the topic to the TML are modifying my opinions, 
but only somewhat.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411014019.028f40d0@pop.wizard.net>

John T Kwon:
<<<snip>>>
>The situations that Traveller characters find themselves in
>are rarely more than a few opponents, and most are armed
>(depending on the GM, of course) with pistols and short range
>weapons.

Very much depends on the referee as well as the players.  I let them get 
into whichever kind of mischief they choose for themselves.  If tick off 
the Mafia or the city police, they have to deal with that and if they tick 
off the banditos in the Sierra Madre while mining gold they have to deal 
with that.  Or maybe they're dropped by the OSS deep into Burma and have to 
hook up with a stone age tribe to conduct guerilla warfare against the 
Japanese.  (I recommend reading a book called 'The Blue Eyed Shan' btw, for 
people interested in this kind of thing.)

<<<more snippage>>>

What is a PH?

My own characters in other Traveller games have often preferred gauss 
rifles, light machineguns, assault rifles, submachineguns, and blade 
weapons, or even bare hands.  As well as grenade launchers, LAGs, shotguns, 
laser carbines or rifles, FGMPs or PGMPs, and an assortment of hand 
grenades.  I try to have the character own and be familiar with all that 
kind of stuff, and then try to have them take the ones that are best for 
the tactical situation and terrain the character is expecting to be 
in.  Pistols and big game rifles have never been big on my list for my 
characters, even though I've tried to make characters who had those are 
their fortes.

In my most recent gun fight in a "Traveller" game, I carried a 
submachinegun, grenades, and great armor as five of us invaded the local 
despot's palace on an impoverished TL 5 to 6 world.  I didn't bother with 
an edged weapon since the character was awesome at unarmed combat and 
improvised weapons.  Left me more weight allowance for ammo.  Our other big 
gun carried a light machinegun.  He didn't make it.  Wasn't wearing enough 
armor, IMHO.  It's a beer and pretzels referee.

That was face to face Traveller gunfights.  Tod Glenn has been putting my 
character through some hoops in his PBEM game, more recently.  He only has 
Rifle-1 for firearms skills, the rest of his combat skills are for 
melee.  He used a battered carbine at 50 meters to kill a very corrupt cop 
who was sitting in a parked car.  It seemed fair at the time.  <EG>  And 
we're nearing the end of a basically dense jungle patrolling combat between 
an enemy equipped to just shy of battle dress (carrying a lot of the 
nastiest weaponry and gizmos Tod has posted on travellercentral.com) and 
the player characters, equipped to a motley standard of high tech combat 
gear.  I used my high-tech bullpup-style assault rifle with special ammo 
(alternating HVAPFSDS long rod penetrator and HE) and got two of them so 
far.  But in about ten minutes, all the PCs are going to get wiped out by 
nerve gas _plus_ EMP weapons conveniently proposed here on the TML.  Guess 
the Evil GM couldn't wait to try out his new toy on some players.  :->

Don't worry kids.  Come back next Sunday matinee for the next exciting 
installment of 'How Will the PCs Escape the Cliffhanger?'.  Your brave 
heroes are bound to come up with something to escape the elaborate death 
trap.  Probably.  LOL.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F97SgeR4UIS42NXHwGr0001bbad@hotmail.com>

Robert A. Uhl:

>I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
>general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
>to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
>inexpensive ammunition.  There are all sorts of nice & nifty rifles,
>and I realise that the ammunition's not going to be cheap--but I'm
>really not up to paying 50c a round unless I really, really have to.

I think you will have a hard time finding a rifle that is adequate for elk 
that is going to cost less than $0.50 per round.  I'd get a 30-06, but 
anything .270 caliber and above would probably be adequate.

As far as rifles, Savages are good and cheap.  Ugly though.  To be honest, 
there is not much difference between the bottom of the line Savage, Ruger, 
Winchester or Remington.  The nice thing about the latter two is that, if 
you ever decide to do so, you can upgrade the rifle easily.  All 4 brands 
will do the job and last several generations, and they all get pretty good 
accuracy out of the box.  Expect to spend at least $3-400 or so, which might 
include a cheap scope.  Check Wal-Mart.  Get a synthetic stock.  These 
rifles are so cheap, that it might be hard to find a used one for less.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020411083544.A5842@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020411160312.A6708@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
> both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
> physics as we know it,

That it does.  :)

I've worked out a set of variations on all the fundamental constants
that works.  However, upon doing the equations it just works out
equivalent to measuring things in grams instead of kilograms. :/

There was no *real* difference at all, including interaction with the
outside world.  Oh well :(



> so it seems that I'm going to have to relent and give up on this
> idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes infeasible, and we're left
> with FTL (which has already been done to death).

Almost all forms of FTL violate physics as we know it, too.  Don't
take my insistence that inertia suppression doesn't work with known
physics and chemistry to mean that I'd choke and barf if I saw it in a
game.  I quite enjoyed the "Lensman" series, after all :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411023119.028f5a00@pop.wizard.net>

John T Kwon:
>Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I
>need a bit of camp now and then.

A few parts of it seemed to have been photocopied straight from Traveller.

It was aptly named.  I had some very good times in the one Space Opera game 
I played in.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:31:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Hagler)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:31:24 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <20020410233434.B23469@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B8DA7B5A.46DE8%khagler@orange-road.com>

on 4/10/2002 10:34 PM, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
> general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
> to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
> inexpensive ammunition.

If you've got lots of money for the rifle, the Steyr Scout in .308 is good.
It's $2800 new, though. I'm saving up for one.  :-)

<http://www.steyrscout.org/>
-- 
                              Ken Hagler

|          ICQ#: 34591293         |   For PGP key send mail with  |
|   http://www.orange-road.com/   |    subject "Send PGP Key".    |
|   And tho' we are not now that strength which in old days       |
|   Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are --Tennyson  |


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018477349.495.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155047.01de3120@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411023756.028f5390@pop.wizard.net>

At 03:22 PM 4/10/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Actually, no, the drug could easily be responsible.  Much of the reason for
>people falling down when shot is that they know they ought to, and drugs can
>dull the pain response and/or make you too stupid to realize you've been shot.
>
>The fact that he stood there are got shot several times by an M60 may suggest
>why the use of combat drugs is discouraged.  People who are heavily 
>drugged are
>not usually known for their good tactics.

I'm not going to agree with you, except for the part about drugs and 
tactics.  It seems to me that the less personal familiarity people have 
with drugs, and the more they hate the class of people who they feel use 
drugs, the more willing they are to ascribe superhuman abilities to drug 
users who are shot.  We're each entitled to our separate opinions.

I'm most inclined to believe that the guy being repeatedly hit with M-60 
machinegun bursts was some kind of weird fluke regardless of drug 
use.  Otherwise, such an incident would be so routine that it would not 
have been noted as unusual in the book.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411024705.01dc26f0@pop.wizard.net>

Charles McKnight:
>In many of the games I've run or played in, the weapon of choice for short 
>range combat is invariably a 10-gauge drum fed automatic shotgun (modeled 
>after the Berlinetta (sp?) that some folks used to call the "vroom broom" 
>or "street sweeper"). There are two things that we found strike terror in 
>the hearts of the NPCs (and sometimes other players):
>
>         1) The sound of a shotgun action being worked
>         2) The realization that somebody might think shooting white 
> phosphorus rounds looked like a good idea
>
>The second point didn't occur until after I had unloaded several rounds 
>into a building of hostiles.  It seems that using staggered loads of 
>different types (HEAP, HE, WP, Mercury Fulminate, KEAP, and Flechettes) 
>had never occurred to anybody else in the game and the damage to the 
>hostiles was sort of mind boggling for them.  :-)
>
>Of course we could also talk about the 90cm grenade launcher that turns 
>people into portable artillery units.........

:::wipes a tear from the corner of one eye:::

"Son, you make me proud."

Warms my cockles, that does.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <20020411045414.13A9B279F9@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410023924.027e4ad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411024937.01dc7010@pop.wizard.net>

Wow, hadn't realized that 'Salon' had already visited the PBEM world.

Thanks for the good URLs.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410222548.02170a50@mail.verizon.net>
References: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411025215.029cb0e0@pop.wizard.net>

Charles McKnight:
>Then again, I think a fun game would be set in Harrison's Stainless Steel 
>Rat universe (in fact, I've played in that setting several times).

I'm for it!!!

Get Spielberg to executive produce it.  He's a lover of pulp SF.  Then 
you'll have money.  But don't let near the script or the director.  He 
pasteurizes everything into pablum.

And don't forget voice overs of Slippery Jim's interior monologue.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
Message-ID: <memo.437377@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410180651.009f12d0@mindspring.com>
When in the British army, I got bawled out for not wearing my stripes on 
combat clothing (they were correctly displayed on other uniforms). I 
pointed out that in the field: -

a. I didn't want the enemy to know what rank I was.
b. My own people knew me already.

I then added some removable stripes, which only went on when there was an 
officer around :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.
Formerly Sergeant, 22nd (Cheshire) Regiment.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 01:01:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 00:01:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <memo.437376@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020411041811.1A229279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
>It also reminds me of Regina UpPort's famous "Stuff on a Stick"
>kiosk...that's where all the left over bits end up.

Don't say that, my character in Mole's PBeM just had his supper there :-(

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 01:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Apr 11 00:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020411024231.00967100@minn.net>

At 12:37 PM 4/11/2002 +1000, Cory wrote:

>I've always thought that due to the high level of personal armour in 
>traveller, at high TLs weapons would be designed for penetration rather 
>than ROF or explosive fragmentation
>
>oh well back to the discussion of the pros and cons of M16s and big game
rifles

Back when I was involved in the patriot movement (I posted the ASCII text
of the first issue of THE RESISTER on usenet) I bought a STG 58 (Austrian
FAL) parts kit and had a gunsmith rebuild it on a semi-auto D.S. Arms
reciever. I also bought 25 magazines, 4000+ rounds of British surplus
ammunition and a ELCAN optical sight for it. 

My MTF transexual landlady asked me if the glowing green triangle in the
ELCAN reticle was for shooting gay martians. When I showed my rifle to the
fellow who edited THE RESISTER he moved the selector switch to what was the
full-auto postion and gave me the look of child expecting a REALLY NEAT
Christmas present.

"NO NO NO N0, Steve," I said, "it doesn't do that, I tried it already."


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 01:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 00:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperial OpSix Force
In-Reply-To: <20020410225606.A23319@4dv.net>
References: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:12:13PM +0000
Message-ID: <3CB4F99B.6983.2E9659D@localhost>

It=92s a hot day as the press core sits on the open benches in front of a 
small stage adorn with several strange looking devices.  They could only 
assume they are weapons since this is a press conference of the Imperial 
Marine training center.  A lone marine petty officer steps forward. 

=93This hour you will be introduced to our newest training technique the 
OpSix force formally called the Starfish Regiment.  This united is 
designed to represent the Hiver federation.   All the troops are not only 
versed in the weapons, tactics and techniques of the Hivers, but also to 
insure the most realistic training they are all experts in the use of the 
Mark II mock Hiver Environmental Suit.=94

At this moment a shirk comes up from the back of the press core as four 
strange creatures appear armed and looking deadly.  Another appears on 
stage and with its many arms [wiggle] [wave wave] [flagellate] [wave 
point flail].


=93Its ok its just members of the OpSix force.  That was just a simple 
demonstration of how realistic the suits are and now Lt. Sherow will take 
over.  A woman seems to unfold herself from the suit.  

=93What I did when I got on stage was give you our Motto.  Experts at 
Retreating=85 That=92s just what we want you to think.  Now I will continu=
e 
explain how this force works.=94

The dog and pony show drags on


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410222548.02170a50@mail.verizon.net>
References: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <v04020a15b8dad9a13fa9@[192.168.1.5]>

>In fact, I was having a discussion this afternoon with a coworker about
>whether anybody would ever have the testicular fortitude to make a series
>of movies based on the Lensman or Family D'Alembert series. The Japanese
>did an animated version of the Lensman series in the 80s, but we're pretty

Have you seen it?  I saw it back in '93, as I remember it was a lot more
like Star Wars rather than the Lensman series.  Still, I enjoyed it, and
wouldn't mind getting a copy of it on DVD.

>well convinced that in this politically correct time that either the
>studios would edit the jingoism right out of the movie or just say no.

I'm scared to think what a mess a studio would make out of it!

			Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|          PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum.         |
|                http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/               |

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F217LltyKF5Q6JVW8s20001d6e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20411.003056.1J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Mr. Erickson,
>
>      Yes, as your other posts illustrated, a planet is a VERY BIG place!  
> Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the 
> conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.
>
> In another bout of hyperbole, I posted, "... the Ziro Sirka would have, 
> could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it glowed."
>
>      "Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
> Millions, hundreds of millions."
>
>      But of course.  Would you care to hazard a guess just what sort of 
> firepower it would have taken for the ZS to remove Terra as a threat?  How 
> many warheads, kinetic strikes, spinal mount hits, and plain old iron bombs 
> would it have taken "de-industrialize" Terra?

Probably more than was practical. Especially given that humans were
pretty well spread out in the solar system as well. 

Exact figures would require knowing a lot more about what was where and
how it was defended. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:18:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:18:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGGCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20411.002719.0T1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> >
>> >A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
>> >bone from a walrus penis.  See
>> >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html
>>
> So when I tell my girlfriend that I've got a "Boner",
> I'm really speaking Eskimo?

Nope. Humans are one of the mammals that *don't* have a penis bone. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:20:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:20:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410025314.02b56df0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20411.003332.4n3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I have too vague an image of how canonical nuclear dampers will precisely 
> behave to really describe all how they will help, and what will be beyond 
> their help.  It probably varies quite a bit from one referee's TU to 
> another's.  I'd guess some referees only have them work if they're focused 
> on ground zero at the time of the explosion, while others let you do 
> whatever kind of prevention and clean up sounds theoretically within the 
> limits of such a technology.

Stopping a bomb from going off requires pretty good focus. Accelerating
decay doesn't and (as I recall) is well within the abilities of the
dampers as described in official source materials.

I tend to consider them *less* useful than the original descriptions,
simply because that decay energy has to go *somewhere*. It won't just
disappear. Thus my comments about heat limiting the speed of cleanup.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:21:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:21:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409223004.02132f28@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <20411.003635.3k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Which reminds me. Some day I need to sit down and try to figure out what 
>>would be required to produce a "burned off" world such as appears in some 
>>of Norton's books.
>
> While I'm not familiar with Norton's "burned off" worlds (I don't tend to 
> read Norton), the easiest way to completely clobber a planet with Traveller 
> technology is to drop a few big rocks on it.  With Traveller maneuver 
> drives, it should be relatively easy to nudge a number of asteroids in the 
> 100,000dton or bigger class into an intercept trajectory with a planet, and 
> that should be all that's needed.

Norton's examples are basicly worlds that got the entire surface
slagged. 

A few didn't quite get it that bad. And most were done with "dirty"
weapons. 

On Terra much of North Ammerica is a lifeless wasteland that is still
too radioactive to enter safely centuries later. Again, lots of
"radioactive glass" surface. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:23:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:23:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <002101c1e027$4452ada0$3cb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <20411.004119.4s9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> You seem to be fairly consistently a couple of days behind on the
> list, BTW.  Are you just behind, or is it something to do with the
> exotic 19th Century computers you use?

I was sick, and I'm still trying to catch up. 

And sorry, but the computers I use aren't *that* old. Well, the abaci,
are, but they aren't used for email.

This box isn't all that old. AMD K6-2/500 cpu, 320 meg of RAMN, etc. It
just so happens that it's running OS/2 and the mail software is running
in a DOS window.

Viruses don't have a chance. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAAEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Robert A. Uhl wrote :
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:54:19AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> >
> > Shakepear didn't have any copyrights on his work -
> > they didn't exist at that time.
>
> That was indeed part of my point...

Of course, Shakespeare was _lucky_ that copyright didn't exist,
or he'd have had his arse sued off by the people he stole his
plays from.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:53:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:53:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEELHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

People are discussing "open source" or free game rules and
claiming it's going to put game designers out of work.

This is basically crap.

FUDGE is sold, and it is completely freely available at the same
time.

GURPS Lite is given away, as were the basic rules for Alternity,
among others.

The D20 system is "open source" and there are many designers
making money off it, (or planning to make money off it) including
Hunter Gordon on this list.

Personally, I think D20 is  a "Bad Thing", not because it won't
make money, but because it will stifle creativity in mechanics.
Designers will face the choice "shall I design my own system,
whichh might fail, or shall I design a game based on D20 which
will probably guarantee me some sales I wouldn't have otherwise."
But that's just my opinion, and because I don't like the idea of
"character levels" in games.

People mentioned "Gates vs Linux".
In the D20 case though, it is like Gates deciding to open source
Windows 2000!

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:55:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:55:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8d974f770c0@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :

> But we are talking about security measure that are
> intrusive enough that the are a hassle to the day
> to day operation of a ship.

Yes.

Just as being searched for screwdrivers and penknives is
currently a hassle in the day to day operation of an airline.

> Some people are going to know about them.

Everyone will be _told_ about them. They won't be secret.

> Unless they are important  enough to make a _significant_
change in costs,
> another company will be able to draw at least some customers
away buy not
> having such intrusive requirements.

The requirements are set by the SPA and the local civilian
government, not the insurance company, as I already said :

> >The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
> >required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
> >may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
> >starport will do it (for important safety and
> >financial reasons,would you want an unwarranted vehicle
> >approaching an extremely expensve space station?), there won't
> >be any real choice except for the captains to take the risk
> >of not doing it and not go to the better starports
>
> The presumption is that every insurance company will have such
> requirements.

No, the presumption is that no insurance company will accept
liability for an illegal ship.

Because of that, if the ship owners wish to be able to recover
the cost of their starship in the event of an accident, they will
attempt to ensure their ship is legal at all times.

> That requires that you show that such requirements
> make a significant difference in insurance costs.

I suspect that any company willing to knowingly insure an illegal
ship, and be expected to pay out, will charge ten times, if not
more, than the normal going rate. And as such an organization is
almost certainly going to be criminal anyway, they may charge the
additional premiums and still not pay out.

> Otherwise insurance companies have no reason to
> push unpopular requirements.
>
> However, if you can show that such requirements are
> needed to keep theft down to a reasonable level, then
> you don't need to invoke insurance companies requiring it.
>
> In the end, invoking insurance companies is not a way
> of justifying  regulations that don't have other basis.

I agree.

However, as already stated,  the insurance companies are not the
justification for the regulations, the starport authority and
civilian govermnment is the justification for the regulations.

Insurance is just the reason the owner of the ship wants to obey
the regulations. After all, the owner may not care that there is
the possibility of a hijack, and may not care how much damage the
hijacked ship does, as long as they know they will be paid out by
the insurance company, all the ship owner has to worry about is
replacing their ship. The insurance company has to worry about
liability for damage to other ships and facilities.

I suspect that in the event of a hijack, the insurance company
will _not_ be your friend, they will be trying _very_ hard to
prove that you did not have adequate safeguards to avoid paying
out the ninety billion in damages to the residents of the suburb
the ship crashed in. If they succeeed, then the liability suit
will go against the owner of the ship.

Have a look at the completely OTT security that is currently
being applied to domestic air travel.
Confiscation of pen-knives and scissors is admittedly stupid, but
this is the sort of stupidity that you will have to deal with in
the SPA and local governments.

Think about the difference in damage potential between a 747 and
a subsidized merchant.
Then think about the greater effect that damage will have on an
orbital starport.

Security on a starship will be required to be tight to prevent
"passengers" from taking control of the starship and flying it
into the starport, or other targets of oppurtunity.

Without proof of the requisite security, you will not be allowed
near the "better" starports or planets, just as any airlines that
are not willing to implement the silly current restrictions would
not be allowed to operate out of major airports.

I agree that on current sea-going ships security is relatively
lax (And a lot of people equate traveller merchants to sea-going
merchants). But changing that will take just a single incident
where a terrorist group takes over a large tanker, turns it into
a floating bomb or biological weapon release system, and sails it
into a heavily populated harbour and sets it off. I believe this
has already been done in fiction, and one has only to look at the
Halifax incident to see the potential for destruction.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:57:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:57:17 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
In-Reply-To: <20020410123043.C21755@4dv.net>
References: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020410123043.C21755@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020411015015.56c0a4db.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> So he went on down to the consul, they all had a good laugh, and the
> letter informing the German registry that Calvert is approved for use
> in America was sent.
> 
> OTOH, I daresay Germany has no-one name Moon Unit or Dweezil, so the
> policy is not entirely incorrect.

In Sweden, the Department of Statistics maintains a webpage where it is
possible to query for the number of people with any name. Very
entertaining.

Calvert : 1 (male)
Sauron : 1 (male)  -  !!!
Legolas : 5 (male)
Gandalf : 15 (male)
Grus : 19 (male)  -  This name means "gravel"

And my favorite:

Skywalker : 9 (male)

The persons who have this name have it as a middle name. They are probably
named "Luke Skywalker Svensson" or something similiar.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:59:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:59:10 2002
Subject: [TML] test
In-Reply-To: <3CB4BE9A.1155267C@premier.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204101430010.1171-100000@rhylanor>
 <3CB4BE9A.1155267C@premier.net>
Message-ID: <20020411015618.314b70fa.jenry023@student.liu.se>

John Groth wrote:
> Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled in terror, and you
> would not have been informed.

Had this been a real emergency, you would all be dead by now.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 04:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeffrey Malone)
Date: Thu Apr 11 03:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Lost Causes
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17951@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <00dc01c1e140$61de4e00$a92554d2@1338700057>

To paraphrase (IIRC) Harry Summers in 'On Strategy', a (possibly apocryphal)
conversation between a US Army officer and a PAVN officer, some years later:

USA - "You know, you never defeated us on the battlefield"

PAVN - "Quite correct.  And also irrelevant."

The Tet Offensive was a great example of the 'CNN Effect' well ahead of
time, of perception having more effect than reality.  The NLF was utterly
devested in 1968, ultimately leading to cadres from the North taking control
of the struggle in the South.  But that was not the perception of the voting
public, and the rest is history...


----- Original Message -----
From: Hughes, Michael <Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 8:19 AM
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Lost Causes


> The Dougster:
> In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat
> in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?
>
> Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public
> opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the
> region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.
>
> Mikey:
> The US were never really going to win that one. As Uncle Ho is fondly
> remembered saying 'I am willing to lose 10 men for each one of yours'.
Hell,
> I think the toll in Vietnam for the conflict was about a million on the
> Communist side. So given loses of 50k for the US that's like 20 to 1.
>
> Besides it's a bit hard to 'save' a country that won't save itself.
>
> My 0.02 of course, so don't roast me slowly over a verbal BBQ.
>
> I'm studying Vietnam now at uni. I particularly enjoyed the battle of Ap
Bac
> (?), which got turned into a major propaganda piece about the South wiping
> the floor with Communist insurgents. When the smoke cleared they found
just
> 3 bodies....
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 05:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 04:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204111145.DVD01524@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert Uhl asks about a GP rifle
<snip>
A Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 for deer. Just right.

Not truly reliable for elk, but it's been done.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 05:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 04:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204111147.DVD01644@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning asks
>what is a PH?

Professional Hunter
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 06:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr 11 05:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Real-world biometrics
Message-ID: <F135SenAbcZbxX9QeCw00005b24@hotmail.com>

Someone recently mentioned a well-established trick in
fiction of defeating a thumbprint scanner by cutting
off an authorized person's thumb.  Real life appears
to have caught up...

"Biometrics Can Be Painful"
current (April 11, 2002) issue at http://www.w2knews.com

Synopsis:
A company placed automated bank teller machines at mining
installations in South Africa, and used thumbprint ID.
Within weeks, they had to take them out - there were
too many incidents of people getting attacked and having
their thumbs cut off.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 06:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 11 05:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RealLife(tm) Battledress, next chapter
References: <20020411004005.5784B27A85@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <204AD90A.F27541C2@earthlink.net>

This is kinda fun...

http://www.aro.army.mil/soldiernano/


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 06:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Thu Apr 11 05:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <3CB4F721.DEF69043@sympatico.ca>; from stosh@sympatico.ca on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:38:25PM -0400
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDHDKAA.tml@downport.com> <3CB4F721.DEF69043@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20020411083438.B9890@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:38:25PM -0400, Michael Stasica wrote:
> 
> A friend job that I fear to visualize:
> 
> Giving enemas to elephants, with a 27 pound suppository in my right hand (
> gloved to the neck) and a hose in my left hand.  A broom and a shovel for the
> resultant mess, nearby.
> 
ISTR an incident where an unfortunate person got caught in and buried
by the generous outflow with fatal results...

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Real-world biometrics
In-Reply-To: <F135SenAbcZbxX9QeCw00005b24@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411085821.02b4ef78@192.168.0.1>

At 08:14 AM 4/11/2002 -0400, Walt Smith wrote:
>Someone recently mentioned a well-established trick in
>fiction of defeating a thumbprint scanner by cutting
>off an authorized person's thumb.  Real life appears
>to have caught up...
>"Biometrics Can Be Painful"
>current (April 11, 2002) issue at http://www.w2knews.com
>Synopsis:
>A company placed automated bank teller machines at mining
>installations in South Africa, and used thumbprint ID.
>Within weeks, they had to take them out - there were
>too many incidents of people getting attacked and having
>their thumbs cut off.

Ah...South Africa...home of the flame thrower anti-carjacking device...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F195GoE1k8LN6FWe7Xl0000b978@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB635B9.12478.8D0AC6@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 0:35, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>      The Imperial China the "Southern Barbarians" began contacting in the 
> 1500's was in one of it's disintergration phases.  The Ming were on the way 
> out, the Manchus were trying to get in, pirates and warlords abounded.  The 
> periphary was unravelling, Taiwan was a pirate kingdom that the Chinese paid 
> the Dutch to tackle for them, Korea either lost to the Japanese or 
> independent, Tibet gone, the far west lost to various horse peoples.  The 
> Ming were straining every nerve just to keep the lid on, and they failed.  
> After them, the Manchu were nothing more than a foreign dynasty simply 
> trying to remain in power.  They restored nothing of China's former power or 
> borders, even losing more territory as their dynasty went on.
>      Does any of that sound like the Ziru Sirka to you?

Yep. The Vilani already had problems when the Terrans turned up. They 
no longer had a monoploy on jump drives and were  suffering from piracy 
from outside their borders by minor races. That's why they thought the 
Terrans were just a bunch of pirates to start with.

>      When they met the Terrans, the Vilani were keeping a ZS boot on the 
> necks of umpteen minor races, races and home worlds that the Vilani were 
> able to keep quiet even as the Terrans racked up victory after victory.  
> There is no mention of these plethora of minor races rising in revolt, all 
> we hear about is their "welcoming their Terran liberators."  How were the 
> Vilani able to keep all those minor races down, how were they able to play 
> power politics with Vargr merc pawns, how were they able to still do all of 
> that, and STILL lose to a single system polity?

Because the Vargr were not that far from Vland, and were an altogether 
higher prioroty. As for the minor races - the Vilani controlled the 
transport and information flow, so the subject races may not have even 
heard of the Terrans until they were right inside their subsector and 
impossible for the Vilani to hide any longer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6380C.25968.9620C5@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 20:36, John T. Kwon wrote:

> If you also consider that Traveller gun combat is at about 
> the same range as a Cape Buffalo encounter, and you're 
> probably going to live for about as many shots (two, maybe 
> three), then I think that whatever makes a good Cape Buffalo 
> weapon might make a good Traveller combat weapon.
> 
> Let's see.  We'll make it .416 Remington, since we can still 
> get Speer tungsten core solids. 

Don't like the .416 Remington (unreasoning dislike - nothing I can pin 
down). I'd take either a .416 Rigby, a .458 Winchester or a .378 
Weatherby - the latter having the advantage of being a fine long-range 
weapon.
 
> The rifle should be a 4-shot controlled-feed pre-64 
> Winchester action (with fixed ejector).  Barrel length should 
> be 22 inches, and we'll go with a muzzle brake.

That's a horridly short barrel for a round like any of the .416s, and 
with a muzzle brake on it you're not going to be making friends of your 
allies, that's for sure.

> The stock 
> should be optimized for firing on your hind legs, and we'll 
> put a Trijicon Reflex sight on top, with express sights just 
> in case that gets broken.

Now this I can agree on, though a x2 - x5 vari-power scope would be a 
nice altenative (gives the option of longer shots).

> Get yourself a pouch that holds 20 rounds, maybe keep 40 
> rounds in your pack.  More than enough for most Traveller 
> adventures.

Yep.

I was thinking of another choice earlier today - the Lee-Enfield SMLE 
or No4. The .303 British is a fine round, and a bit milder than the .30-
06 or 7.92x57mm, and the Mark VII round is more wounding than you might 
think, thanks to careful design - it had an aluminium or peat insert in 
the nose of the bullet, making it 'rear heavy'. The bullet also has an 
exposed lead base (like most ball ammo of the time), which means that 
its rear is quite weak. The combination of these two features results 
in a bullet that tumbles rapidly in flesh (for a full-bore round) and 
flattens at the rear, resulting in something that spins like a sycamore 
seed. We once fired some into a 40 pound block of cheddar and the 
'wound track' was interesting and rather larger than that of .30-06 
ball, though not so large as that of a .30-06 soft nose. Of course this 
isn't a perfect demo, as cheese won't spring back from the temporary 
cavity the way a person's body will, but still.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB638C4.8619.98EF71@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 22:36, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).  
> But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You 
> know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or 
> perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.
> 
> Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I 
> need a bit of camp now and then.

Played it for years, back in the day. A friend of mine maintains that 
it's ruined his ability to enjoy newer SF games - they just aren't 
_real_ SF rpgs without Gene Day ink drawings, many typos and large 
sections of unplayable rules.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet... or even
the moon?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Huxton" <red@archonet.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:04 PM
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters


> Idle speculation from an idle speculator, and it must have been asked
> before...
>
> We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any upper limit
> ("that's no moon...")
>
> I had a sudden vision of a jump-capable planet working its way around the
> galaxy sucking gas giants dry between jumps.
>
> Any gearheads got a spreadsheet that can handle this?
>
> Oh, no cheating of course, you have to do this using LBB Book 2 rules at
TL13
> and bring the cost in at under 100MCr ;-)
>
> - Richard Huxton
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:37:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:37:08 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <20020410233434.B23469@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>; from res0i3sf@verizon.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:25:21PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CB63A21.15419.9E4377@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 23:34, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
> general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
> to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
> inexpensive ammunition.  There are all sorts of nice & nifty rifles,
> and I realise that the ammunition's not going to be cheap--but I'm
> really not up to paying 50c a round unless I really, really have to.
> 
> Thanks much!

My advice would be a .30-06, as it'll work on just about anything you 
have in the US (though I believe that most people consider it a little 
small for brown bear). If you're concerned about recoil something like 
a 7x57mm or 7mm Remington express would be fine, or a .243 winchester, 
6mm Remington or .25-06 for that matter. Now, that was lots of help, 
wasn't it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:39:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:39:08 2002
Subject: [TML] A 'Billion' Earth's.......
Message-ID: <20020411133823.87249.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com>

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_medical/story.jsp?story=283413

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <F97SgeR4UIS42NXHwGr0001bbad@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 6:00, Sam D wrote:

> As far as rifles, Savages are good and cheap.  Ugly though.  To be
> honest, there is not much difference between the bottom of the line
> Savage, Ruger, Winchester or Remington.  The nice thing about the
> latter two is that, if you ever decide to do so, you can upgrade the
> rifle easily.  All 4 brands will do the job and last several
> generations, and they all get pretty good accuracy out of the box. 
> Expect to spend at least $3-400 or so, which might include a cheap
> scope.  Check Wal-Mart.  Get a synthetic stock.  These rifles are so
> cheap, that it might be hard to find a used one for less. 

Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle 
you like the look of. As Jim Charmichel once said "You're a very lucky 
man if you get to spend more time firing your rifle than looking at 
it." That being the case there's no point getting a rifle you can't 
stand the sight of.

Another thing - unless you intend on doing a lot of long range shooting 
don't be too concerned about extreme accuracy - despite what many of us 
have been ranting on about getting 2" at 100 yards is plenty good 
enough for most (non-varmint) hunting - that's still a deer's lower 
chest at 300 yards, easy.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:43:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:43:35 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411013453.029c0450@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB63B80.28309.A39F58@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 1:39, laning wrote:

> People who are liking lighter rounds are also exceptionally skilled shots 
> and I think factoring in their ability at shot placement more than I myself 
> would be comfortable with.  Heard way too many stories from excellent shots 
> who lost deer that they good pretty good hits on using .30-'06.  I'm not 
> saying they won't get their one-shot kills with lighter rounds.  Just that 
> I'd rather not rely on that kind of thing if it were me.
> 
> Some of the recent posts on the topic to the TML are modifying my opinions, 
> but only somewhat.

One thing that struck me - in all this 5.56 vs 7.62 nobody has 
suggested that that P90 thingie's round (I forget it's designation) 
would be a desirable alternative.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:48:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:48:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
In-Reply-To: <memo.437377@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CB63CCB.4807.A8A983@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 7:58, Megan Robertson wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410180651.009f12d0@mindspring.com>
> When in the British army, I got bawled out for not wearing my stripes on 
> combat clothing (they were correctly displayed on other uniforms). I 
> pointed out that in the field: -
> 
> a. I didn't want the enemy to know what rank I was.
> b. My own people knew me already.
> 
> I then added some removable stripes, which only went on when there was an 
> officer around :-)

We didn't (and don't) wear rank in the field. In fact we went to having 
NCO rank on removeable brassards so that you didn't have to have so 
many different shirts, and so that it could be taken off and put on 
again depending on circumstances more readily. Wearing rank in the 
field is about as bright as saluting in the field. In fact it was SOP 
for field dress to have no insignia on it at all now that I think about 
it.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <200204111145.DVD01524@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB63DAD.23897.AC1EE3@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 7:45, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Robert Uhl asks about a GP rifle
> <snip>
> A Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 for deer. Just right.
> 
> Not truly reliable for elk, but it's been done.

Just to keep things going - I'm not a fan big fan of the .30-30 (though 
I nearly bought one ten years ago - got an SKS instead), as IMO it's 
underpowered for larger deer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
 <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20020411155818.5b11fc3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Christopher Pratt wrote:
> What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet... or
even
> the moon?

Calculations for Luna follow:

Using a diameter of 3.476 E+6 meters:

Volume: 1.759 E+20 cubic meters

Displacement: 1.257 E+19 displacement tons

Surface area: 3.796 E+13 square meters

FF&S2 structural factor: 1.037 E+25

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204111402.DVH05321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>On 11 Apr 2002 at 1:39, laning wrote:
>Heard way too many stories from excellent shots 
> who lost deer that they good pretty good hits on using .30-
>'06.

A good shot is not necessarily a good hunter.  Some misguided 
souls believe that a bullet is a magical item that will make 
up for a rump shot, or a hit low in the belly.

There are, indeed, rounds that will enter the back end of a 
moose and come out the front, disrupting everything on the 
way through.  But it's better to pick where you're going to 
hit.  And consider what effect that's going to have.  This 
often means passing up a shot, or waiting for the animal to 
change aspect.

I'm convinced that the concepts brought out in Fackler's work 
apply to all animals.  You need a hit on the major nervous 
systems (brain or high in the spinal cord), or you need a hit 
that will get the animal to perish from hemorrhagic shock.  I 
have found that it's best to try to break bone in deer, 
because they can still run while bleeding to death.  Since 
I'm not doing headshots on deer, I try to break the shoulder 
in particular.  I can't see how a .30-06 would fail to break 
the shoulder if loaded with a proper weight bullet (150 
grains or higher, 180 grains being typical).  

ObTrav: In my revision (or supplanting) of the various 
Traveller gun combat systems, I have a penetration 
threshold/degredation for armor.  Even if a round penetrates 
armor, there are limits then on how badly you can be hurt.  
Of course, if the weapon has a really high penetration value, 
then this effect can be overcome, in much the same way that a 
really powerful hunting caliber can make up for shooting elk 
or moose from behind.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <F117uMJ4ySUfjhcgrqo00002681@hotmail.com>

Robert A. Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

You simply need a higher quality worst enemy to give it to.
:-)

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
Walsm Penor, or Terith Smipel, depending on which
iteration of the Lucasian name generator we're using.
I kind of like Terith Penor.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:42:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:42:07 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F107XkF81yvoXFMxmyh000181e3@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>I'm convinced that the concepts brought out in Fackler's work
>apply to all animals.

I think this is a very good point.  Whether you are a hunter, acting in self 
defense, a cop or a soldier, your objective should be the same.  Despite 
occassional talk that hunters are content to let a wounded deer slip away or 
are very concerned about damaging too much meat, my experience is just the 
opposite.  Most of the hunters I know, if an animal does not drop like a 
sack of bricks, immediately start thinking about practicing more or getting 
a more powerful rifle.  In fact, hunters and cops seem to take "stopping 
power" much more seriously than the military.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F99548IlvMTkL01NspD000142b4@hotmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn said:

>Just to keep things going - I'm not a fan big fan of the .30-30 (though
>I nearly bought one ten years ago - got an SKS instead), as IMO it's
>underpowered for larger deer.

Although I have learned that one must tread carefully when critisizing the 
30/30, I tend to agree.  My problem is not so much with its stopping power 
as with its poor ballistics.  The 30/30's point blank range is only like 200 
yards, while you will get 300 or more with a more modern cartridge.  The 
accuracy is pretty bad too, and difficult to remedy, but adequate for short 
range.  It is a fine looking weapon, but unless longer shots are out of the 
question I would get a bolt action.

You are better off getting a cheap rifle and a more expensive scope.  Unless 
you are a very skilled rifleman, a decent scope (either 4x, 2-7 or 3-9) is a 
great asset.  Nice binocs are also important.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411075617.009f3d90@mindspring.com>

At 10:36 PM 4/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).

Actually, when I get the time and energy to run games, they tend to be 
deadly serious.


>Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I
>need a bit of camp now and then.

I loved that game!  I think the authors got paid by the subcase in the rules.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:12:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Kim)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:12:09 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB63B80.28309.A39F58@localhost>
References: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
 <3CB63B80.28309.A39F58@localhost>
Message-ID: <p05101502b8db5700ec4e@[10.0.1.10]>

At 1:42 AM +1200 4/12/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

>One thing that struck me - in all this 5.56 vs 7.62 nobody has
>suggested that that P90 thingie's round (I forget it's designation)
>would be a desirable alternative.

	5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar 
helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target 
(titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle 
velocity of 715m/s.

	http://www.remtek.com/arms/fn/p90/index.htm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:26:10 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204111525.DVL00842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
<snip about the .30-30, buying a weapon, scope, etc>

Most hunters I know (unless they are out west where the 
terrain permits it) don't shoot past 100 yards.  Yes, the .30-
30 has a range limit (look at the energy drop off for 5.56 
while you're at it), but 100 yards is just fine.  I like to 
get close.  I can hit paper way out there, but animals move 
in unpredictable ways, and I'm wanting to hit shoulder.

Keep in mind that many bolt-action/cartridge combinations are 
capable of working far beyond the shooter's ability.  The 
shooter will probably never explore that limit.  Many hunters 
I have met are not capable of shooting up to what they carry, 
not to mention even a lowly .30-30.

Many bolt-action stocks are not natural pointers - it always 
seems uncomfortable in the standing, kneeling, or sitting 
position.  Sometimes I think that the designer figured that 
everyone wants a flat beavertail fore-end for shooting from 
the bench.  Screw that.  I hate my Sendero precisely because 
it doesn't "point".

The typical lever-action Marlin or Winchester will point like 
there's no tomorrow - a good factor for a beginning (or even 
experienced) shooter who is shooting in the field.  Tod may 
laugh and figure I'm like that guy who brought us the M-14 
stock.

At 100 yards, you can get excellent results without a scope.  
If you have a Marlin 336, you can get a rear fold-down peep 
sight for about 25 dollars.  Sight this in, and go practice 
shooting on your hind legs at 50 to 100 yards.  If you can 
find a little valley, you can practice shooting downhill, 
uphill, etc.  Carry a pack with some paper plates and 
thumbtacks.  Practice standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone 
to see which one you're most comfortable with, and which one 
you find quick.  At home, you can practice getting into 
positions using your empty rifle.  Many people *never* 
practice this.  Learning what your body likes and dislikes 
about positions, and learning what makes a solid position 
only comes from this practice.

A good sling is also essential.  Many like the Ching Sling, 
but I am still fond of the leather military two-piece.  Stay 
slung up with this, and you can shoot standing to 100 yards 
with great accuracy.

A Win 94 or Marlin 336 may be cheap, may not be tackdrivers, 
but with little extra equipment, they can put a softpoint 
onto a paper plate at 100 yards very quickly.

If you're interested in reloading your cartridges, you can 
get a fairly inexpensive Lee 2001 (single station frame 
press).  I still have the one I got in 1984, and although 
I've gotten better dies and tools, I find it just as good as 
my Redding or RCBS.  This will lower the cost of your shots, 
and will allow you to spend more time with your hobby.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:32:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:32:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F70SDx1kLwxTQTYkWSz00001108@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "Yep. The Vilani already had problems when the Terrans turned up. They 
no longer had a monoploy on jump drives and were  suffering from piracy from 
outside their borders by minor races. That's why they thought the Terrans 
were just a bunch of pirates to start with."


Mr. Boleyn,

     I thought the "Outies" were all recruited, armed, and paid for by 
factions in the Ziru Sirka.  The Vargr were the exception in all of this 
because most of them hadn't rounded Windhorn yet and they don't have the 
staying power necessary for conquest (as we all detailed in the problems 
with the DGP's Rebellion).  Sounds as if I'm going to have to sit down and 
think about this much, much, MUCH more.
     The local ZS reps may have thought the Terrans were pirates up to a 
point, but only fools or traitors would have thought so after the 2nd IW and 
the Vilani visit to the Sol system.

     "Because the Vargr were not that far from Vland, and were an altogether 
higher priority."

     In the coreward sections of the ZS, sure, but in the early days the ZS 
Rim should have been able to handle Sol on their own.  IIRC, the ZS core 
fleet was dispatched to deal with the Terrans late in the IW period, but the 
Confederation already had jump3 technology and mousetrapped the ZS fleet.

     "As for the minor races - the Vilani controlled the transport and 
information flow, so the subject races may not have even heard of the 
Terrans until they were right inside their subsector and impossible for the 
Vilani to hide any longer."

     Yeah, I've got to think this over even more.  To my mind, minor race 
rebellions aided and abetted by Terran infiltrators should be a big part of 
the Interstellar Wars.  There would have been uprisings and sabotage a 
sector or so "behind" the fighting front and the minor race allies providing 
the lower-TL cannon fodder for the Alliance's offensives.
     Thanks for the ideas to chew over.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 10:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 09:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
Message-ID: <4b.1b7f2094.29e70e82@aol.com>

--part1_4b.1b7f2094.29e70e82_boundary
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From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet 
cover.  In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.

   And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the first 
place? The Lt. maybe? lol!

  -Ken Murphy-



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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;
<BR>
<BR>I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet 
<BR>cover. &nbsp;In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the first place? The Lt. maybe? lol!
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_4b.1b7f2094.29e70e82_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 11:46:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Thu Apr 11 10:46:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020411160312.A6708@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 11, 2002 04:03:12 PM
Message-ID: <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
> > both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
> > physics as we know it,
> 
> That it does.  :)
> 
> I've worked out a set of variations on all the fundamental constants
> that works.  However, upon doing the equations it just works out
> equivalent to measuring things in grams instead of kilograms. :/
> 
> There was no *real* difference at all, including interaction with the
> outside world.  Oh well :(

Really? Hmm... this makes me think about that last example you
posed:

> OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
> the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
> a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
> strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
> hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
> when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
> decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
> just one simple example.
> 
> Hence inertial suppression requires more than just changing the
> strength of forces.  If you want the atoms to behave the same way, you
> need to alter fundamental constants as well.
 
Why does h influence the size of the atom?

Also, how do we know that h is a fundamental constant and not
dependant on the factors we might be changing (i.e. fundamental
forces) with the intertial suppression scheme?

That said:
I presume m_e is mass of electron and q_e is charge of the electron.
pi is 'pi', and h is plank's.  I'm not sure what eps_0... something
about the electrostatic attraction?

Are you saying that by reducing the mass, the orbitals of the electrons
are going to be larger?

I'm not completely sure how plank's constant enters into this.

If you say you are reducing the effect of an electronic charge by the
same percentage that you are reducing the mass, all should be good,
even if that means plank's constant has changed, which, I admit, I
was hoping to avoid... but when you mentioned that you created a
set of mechanics which worked perfectly well w/ all the constants
changing... hmm.

I'm thinking that perhaps these constants come out of evaluating
quantities such as the size of an atom.... in other words, perhaps
ZPF taming (inertial suppression & fundamental force suppression)
would end up modifying these so-called constants. But I don't know
enough about plank's to really make that assessment. Basically, what
I'm driving at here, is if you dropped the values of the fundamental
forces, would planck's constant also change as a result of that? If
so, then we've got a bit of a squirrely situation which might just
work mathematically, but which would make your average physics
doctorate have a cow.

On this assumption that this doesn't work, however:
> > so it seems that I'm going to have to relent and give up on this
> > idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes infeasible, and we're left
> > with FTL (which has already been done to death).
> 
> Almost all forms of FTL violate physics as we know it, too.  Don't
> take my insistence that inertia suppression doesn't work with known
> physics and chemistry to mean that I'd choke and barf if I saw it in a
> game.  I quite enjoyed the "Lensman" series, after all :)

Well, I'm sorta torn between this idea and Alcubierre's FTL (space
warping) idea, but we've discussed that one a few months ago, and
if I remember correctly, you made the contention that it leads to
wormholes and time travel, which we really don't want to deal with.
That's (a small) part of the reason I was hoping to use this inertial
suppression idea instead, but if it can't be explained in a way that
a physics major would say... "hmm... interesting... and I can't really
disprove it either... nor does it lead to ridiculous & exploitable
technologies" then maybe it shouldn't be used. I'm shooting for
something with a hard-SF feel. If we wanted soft-SF, we'd use
hyperspace and quasispace from starcon2.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:04:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:04:42 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F99EjKuZA11Fr9YawOu000146f1@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon says:

>Most hunters I know (unless they are out west where the
>terrain permits it) don't shoot past 100 yards.

I live in the West, and the 30/30 is virtually extinct as a sporting arm 
here.  Under 100 yard shot are very uncommon, and most guys are unsatisfied 
with their 300 yard rifles.   It seems like everybody is buying one of the 
new 300 Magnums, in the hope of going farther.

We tend to forget that the 30/30 in many places is all that is needded.

>Keep in mind that many bolt-action/cartridge combinations are
>capable of working far beyond the shooter's ability.  The
>shooter will probably never explore that limit.  Many hunters
>I have met are not capable of shooting up to what they carry,
>not to mention even a lowly .30-30.

Unfortunately, that is very true.  A 300 Mag does not make a guy a good 
shot; in fact, the opposite is usually the case.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:08:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:08:23 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F56z8kI063RA5C2duii00023931@hotmail.com>

Justin Kim said:

>	5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar
>helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target
>(titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle
>velocity of 715m/s.

Is that a FN pistol round?  Are they talking about using it in anything 
other than a pistol?

There was a lot of heartache going from .45 to 9m; can you imagine the howls 
if they went to a .22 pistol?

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:12:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <f8.19b3e031.29e72b62@aol.com>

--part1_f8.19b3e031.29e72b62_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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   Penis bones aside, the Space Axe(tm) stuff has been pretty interesting. 
Its got me wondering as to its actual performance characteristics.
   Lets take a look at axes:
   In MT, the Handaxe has Pen 6, Blocks 1, and does 3 Damage, while our 
friend the Battleaxe has Pen 8, Blocks 1, and also delivers 3 Damage.
   Now the Broadsword, for example, has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is less 
than 10, and I'm thinking our Space Axe(tm) should have a similar modifier of 
some sort; clearly seperating the thing's use by those in BD (or grotesquely 
jacked up with boinics and the like), and the relatively weak Everyone Else.
   I'm thinking the Space Axe has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is currently 
less than 20; making it act as a "normal" Battleaxe when weilded by 
non-BDers. This would mean our Ronco Space Axe(tm) would have Pen 16 when 
_properly_ used with BD and the like.
   Would this thing have a pick at the opposite end like a fireman's axe, or 
be double headed? I'm more for the pick end, myself. 
   One thing I liked from an old Challenge or Digest article on Low tech 
weapons, gave a reduction to the protection provided by "plate" (and, by my 
"logical" extension, Combat Armor and Battle Dress) against different 
weapons. Mostly the weapons sited were blunt ones; blades (and axes, IIRC) 
not receiving any armor mods.   
   Anyhow, one weapon, the Pick, reduced "Plate's" protection by -4 right 
off. That might be a handy little modifier to use when weilding the axe 
pick-end first :)
   I liked the idea of a rocket-assist on the downstroke as well, but am 
unable to figure any mods for _that_---maybe it gives the thing 4 Damage 
instead of 3? ;P
   Darn! Now I'm starting to wonder about all those creepy-looking chainsaw 
blades and the like I see on those Warhammer figures...
  -Ken Murphy-

 "When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer 
for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out 
of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God 
Almighty have mercy on you!" 

Legion of the Damned
Sven Hassel

   
   

--part1_f8.19b3e031.29e72b62_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Penis bones aside, the Space Axe(tm) stuff has been pretty interesting. Its got me wondering as to its actual performance characteristics.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Lets take a look at axes:
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;In MT, the Handaxe has Pen 6, Blocks 1, and does 3 Damage, while our friend the Battleaxe has Pen 8, Blocks 1, and also delivers 3 Damage.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Now the Broadsword, for example, has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is less than 10, and I'm thinking our Space Axe(tm) should have a similar modifier of some sort; clearly seperating the thing's use by those in BD (or grotesquely jacked up with boinics and the like), and the relatively weak Everyone Else.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I'm thinking the Space Axe has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is currently less than 20; making it act as a "normal" Battleaxe when weilded by non-BDers. This would mean our Ronco Space Axe(tm) would have Pen 16 when _properly_ used with BD and the like.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Would this thing have a pick at the opposite end like a fireman's axe, or be double headed? I'm more for the pick end, myself. 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;One thing I liked from an old Challenge or Digest article on Low tech weapons, gave a reduction to the protection provided by "plate" (and, by my "logical" extension, Combat Armor and Battle Dress) against different weapons. Mostly the weapons sited were blunt ones; blades (and axes, IIRC) not receiving any armor mods. &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Anyhow, one weapon, the Pick, reduced "Plate's" protection by -4 right off. That might be a handy little modifier to use when weilding the axe pick-end first :)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I liked the idea of a rocket-assist on the downstroke as well, but am unable to figure any mods for _that_---maybe it gives the thing 4 Damage instead of 3? ;P
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Darn! Now I'm starting to wonder about all those creepy-looking chainsaw blades and the like I see on those Warhammer figures...
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR>
<BR><P ALIGN=CENTER> "When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God Almighty have mercy on you!" 
<BR><P ALIGN=LEFT>
<BR>Legion of the Damned
<BR>Sven Hassel
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</P></P></FONT></HTML>

--part1_f8.19b3e031.29e72b62_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:14:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:14:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Adios Pirates!
Message-ID: <20020411181056.4612.qmail@earthlink.net>

And you thought Traveller pirates had it rough.

-- quote --

ABCNews.com

April 10 &#8212; They may not have patches over their eyes, parrots on their shoulders, and bottles of rum in their hands, but modern-day pirates are preying on the weak and the unwary.

From Borneo to Baja California, pirate attacks &#8212; up 400 percent in the last decade &#8212; are bolder and bloodier than ever. Like their legendary predecessors, they pose a serious threat to tankers, freighters and sailors across the world. And, according to some experts, many more attacks go unreported, especially in tourist spots. "The crimes are becoming more and more audacious," says Kim Petersen, a security expert who tracks pirates. "They're after whatever they can get."

Though no cruise ships have been attacked recently, the cruise lines are now so worried about piracy and hijacking that they've hired Gurkhas, Nepalese soldiers skilled with knives and swords, to protect their ships and passengers...

-- end quote --

The rest of the story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Downtown/2020/Downtown_020410_pirates_feature.html

-- 


David Smart



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:17:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:17:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Adios Pirates!
Message-ID: <20020411181134.84657.qmail@earthlink.net>

And you thought Traveller pirates had it rough.

-- quote --

ABCNews.com

April 10 &#8212; They may not have patches over their eyes, parrots on their shoulders, and bottles of rum in their hands, but modern-day pirates are preying on the weak and the unwary.

From Borneo to Baja California, pirate attacks &#8212; up 400 percent in the last decade &#8212; are bolder and bloodier than ever. Like their legendary predecessors, they pose a serious threat to tankers, freighters and sailors across the world. And, according to some experts, many more attacks go unreported, especially in tourist spots. "The crimes are becoming more and more audacious," says Kim Petersen, a security expert who tracks pirates. "They're after whatever they can get."

Though no cruise ships have been attacked recently, the cruise lines are now so worried about piracy and hijacking that they've hired Gurkhas, Nepalese soldiers skilled with knives and swords, to protect their ships and passengers...

-- end quote --

The rest of the story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Downtown/2020/Downtown_020410_pirates_feature.html

-- 


David Smart



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:19:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:19:33 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F56z8kI063RA5C2duii00023931@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 11:05 AM, Sam D at samdx@hotmail.com wrote:

> Justin Kim said:
> 
>> 5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar
>> helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target
>> (titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle
>> velocity of 715m/s.
> 
> Is that a FN pistol round?  Are they talking about using it in anything
> other than a pistol?

It's also the round for the FN P90.

It would be interesting to compare it's lethality to the 9mm ball round that
it would replace.  Energy is only a little more than the 9mm but the recoil
should be nothing.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:56:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Kim)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:56:25 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <p05101503b8db8ae2c7f1@[10.0.1.10]>

At 11:17 AM -0700 4/11/02, Tod Glenn wrote:

>It's also the round for the FN P90.
>
>It would be interesting to compare it's lethality to the 9mm ball round that
>it would replace.  Energy is only a little more than the 9mm but the recoil
>should be nothing.

	It's supposed to leave large nasty wound cavities in the 
target.  The website I referenced in my last post used to have a 
picture of the track the round left in a block of ballistic gelatin. 
I'm a complete novice, but it looked unpleasant to me :)

	The 5.7x28mm round was designed to replace the 9mm because of 
the 9mm's poor armor penetrating capabilities.

Justin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:09:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:09:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409141814.027d2810@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20411.112148.1F4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>>> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where 
>>> you were born.

Leoer McSan

I *don't* think so...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:10:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:10:59 2002
Subject: [TML] RealLife(tm) Battledress, next chapter
In-Reply-To: <204AD90A.F27541C2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20411.112029.5P7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Gee, you sent this on March 3, 1987. Slow X-boat?

In mail you write:

> This is kinda fun...
>
> http://www.aro.army.mil/soldiernano/
>
>
> David

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:12:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:12:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018393991.5137.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20411.112329.6T1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>> Keep in mind that while the *energy* of the pulse might only be a few
>> kilojoules the *power* level will be in the megawatt to gigawatt range.
>> Pulses of 1 millisecond or *shorter* will be wanted, both to avoid
>> problems with target movement, but also because the shorter duration
>> tends to increase the "shock" effect due to increased rapidity of
>> energy deposition.
>
> Think microsecond.  You want to create a supersonic shock effect.

That pushes the 1 kJ pulse to *gigawatt* power levels in the rifle. 
Even if it's only for a microsecond, a gigawatt is a lot of power.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:14:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:14:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D99A5C.382DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20411.120223.5O8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/9/02 11:41 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> 
>>> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).
>>> A 65 gram projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.
>> 
>> 65 grams is about 2.3 *ounces*. Ouch.
>> 
>> 4800 fps = ~1460 m/s.
>> 
>> Yeek! That's almost 70 kiloJoules muzzle energy!
>> 
>> Yeah, that'd make folks go splat.
>
> I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.
>
> 69,562 Joules of energy
> 1,130 joules of free recoil
>
> 25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)

Or the equivalent of 16.6 grams of TNT.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:19:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:19:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204111918.DVS00303@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

shadow@krypton.rain.com says
>
>That pushes the 1 kJ pulse to *gigawatt* power levels in the 
>rifle. Even if it's only for a microsecond, a gigawatt is a 
lot of power.
>
You should realize then the power of the current smokeless 
powder cartridges.  We're raising 5 to 8 kJ (depending on 
caliber) in seven-tenths of a millisecond.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:21:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:21:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F1848kFEs6x7Oq6q4sM0001f07c@hotmail.com>

From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>

     "Riiiiiight.  And the United States singlehandedly beat Hitler and
liberated Europe.  Just ask any contemporary 'Merkun.  (Okay, maybe the 
Limeys helped us out some, but not those dirty Reds, no sir.  And definitely 
not the French - all they know how to do is surrender.  What?  The Chinese?  
Were they *in* WW2?)"


Mr. St.Clair,

     Exactly my point, sir!  The Yanks no more singlehandedly beat Adolph 
than the Terran Confederation singlehandedly beat the Ziru Sirka.
     In the center, the Vilani were engaged in realpolitik factional games 
amongst themselves, complete with "outie" mercs and personal armies.  Along 
the coreward frontier, the Vargr were sniffing about, some recruited and 
used for internal ZS power politics and others still feral and rading 
willy-nilly.  And, scattered throughout the empire, were dozens of restless 
minor races, chafing at the Vilani collar around their collective necks and 
waiting for the slightest provocation to rebel.
     The Terrans had help, and lots of it.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:38:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:38:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204111937.DVT02415@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
>
>     "Riiiiiight.  And the United States singlehandedly beat 
>Hitler and liberated Europe. 

UK, very helpful
USSR, extremely helpful
Chinese, yes very
in fact, it was "world war" for a reason.  It took half the 
world to defeat the Axis.

It could also be argued that without the United States, the 
Germans would have won the war.  So no one could do the whole 
job - it had to be done together.

The French -- for the ones that actually helped, were only a 
distraction to keep Germans occupied elsewhere.  Many French 
were wholehearted collaborators.  They don't want to mention 
this -- in fact, "everyone" was in the Maquis.  They gladly 
handed over 1 million Jews, Socialists, homosexuals, and 
other "undesireables" over to the Germans.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:56:08 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200
References: <F97SgeR4UIS42NXHwGr0001bbad@hotmail.com> <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020411135544.A25603@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle 
> you like the look of.

Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
_ugly_:-(

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Mark Twain famously noted that those who are interested in the law or
sausage should never watch either made.  In the years since he made the
remark, there has been considerable reform in sausage making.
                                          --Dennis E. Powell

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:58:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:58:12 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <200204111525.DVL00842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:25:35AM -0400
References: <200204111525.DVL00842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020411135704.B25603@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:25:35AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> A good sling is also essential.  Many like the Ching Sling, 
> but I am still fond of the leather military two-piece.  Stay 
> slung up with this, and you can shoot standing to 100 yards 
> with great accuracy.

I've never actually figured out how to use a sling...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Verbogeny is one of the pleasurettes of a creatific thinkerizer.
                                               --Peter da Silva

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
>food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
>parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
>they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
>                --Socrates, c.  5th century BC

"  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
   abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
   man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
   end of the world is fast approaching."
                          - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:11:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:11:12 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204112010.g3BKAVh12588@mailbag.com>

"Sam D" 
> John T. Kwon says:
> 
> >Most hunters I know (unless they are out west where the
> >terrain permits it) don't shoot past 100 yards.
> 
> I live in the West, and the 30/30 is virtually extinct as a sporting arm 
> here.  Under 100 yard shot are very uncommon, and most guys are unsatisfied 
> with their 300 yard rifles.   It seems like everybody is buying one of the 
> new 300 Magnums, in the hope of going farther.



By the same token, I live in Wisconsin. 100 yards? Try 100 feet real often. 

All I need for any hunting I do is my old Ithica 12 Gauge pump: Slugs for deer 
and (steel) shot for birds. I also have a flintlock in .50", but that's for fun 
not for hunting. I may someday get a .308 for a hunting rifle, but honestly 
there's nothing I want to hunt that I would need anything more than that 12.

Plus, IMHO, it's the best home defense weapon available. 

William




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204112013.DVT07701@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>I've never actually figured out how to use a sling...

Get a book on three-position shooting.  There will be a 
section on using the sling.  Make sure that you buy 
a "proper" two-piece leather sling (it will set you back more 
than the cheap nylon straps that you see on the shelf).

Once you "sling up" properly, you will be surprised at the 
level of stability you can achieve.  As long as its not too 
tight, you can walk around slung up like this.  

ObTrav:  This, and the Ching Sling, are the only "sling" 
types that I will give a +DM for accuracy.  Those 
other "things" are just fancy padded carrying straps.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:46:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:46:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>; from shadow@krypton.rain.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:15:43PM -0800
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net> <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020411144523.A25786@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:15:43PM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> "  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
>    abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
>    man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
>    end of the world is fast approaching."
>                           - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC

.sig slurped...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
'Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US
 companies like Microsoft.'                         --some AOLer
'To this end we dedicate ourselves...'                     --Don

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:47:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:47:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
References: <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CB5F5F1.3050200@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
> 
> 
>>Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
>>food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
>>parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
>>they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
>>               --Socrates, c.  5th century BC
> 
> 
> "  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
>    abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
>    man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
>    end of the world is fast approaching."
>                           - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC
> 

Some of the pictures in the caves in Lascaux express the same things, 
I'll bet.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 15:25:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 14:25:08 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
parts of the debate to TML chat?

Or else I'll begin posting socialist and communist propaganda...

(not a serious threat, but about as relevant)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 15:29:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 11 14:29:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F247Acvgn29MhIydI8o0001bb2c@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "The French -- for the ones that actually helped, were only a
distraction to keep Germans occupied elsewhere.  Many French were 
wholehearted collaborators.  They don't want to mention this -- in fact, 
"everyone" was in the Maquis.  They gladly handed over 1 million Jews, 
Socialists, homosexuals, and other "undesireables" over to the Germans."


Mr. Kwon,

     The French wheat and meat fed the Nazi war machine.  French hands and 
concrete built the Atlantic Wall and the submarine pens.  French rails 
shipped men and materials without delay or hindrance.
     All of Holland worked for their resistance, the Germans had a devil of 
time finding collaborators there.  The Danes, from the King on down, wore 
the yellow Star of David and helped their Jews escape to Sweden.  Yugoslavia 
was a hardship post with constant fighting.  The Czechs killed the Nazi 
gauleiters assigned there.  Norway meant you had to live in armed camps and 
the Eastern Front was litle more than a death sentence, but France...  
France was where you got posted if you were a good little Nazi!

Q:  Why do the French plant trees along the side of the road?
A:  So the Germans can march in the shade.

ObTrav - So, from the Vilani point of view, who were the "French" to the 
Terran's "Nazis" during the Interstellar Wars?  The Vegans?  Some other 
human minor race?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 15:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 14:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
Message-ID: <200204112147.DVX03585@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

There's the 100d limit.  Given.

Is there not some safety standoff distance from one jump 
drive to another?  And what would that distance be?  Could 
you make someone misjump (along with yourself)?

I've read in the archive about "grav" generators to bump 
people out of hyperspace, and jump projectors to throw people 
into the middle of nowhere.

But on a simpler level, I feel that one jump field powering 
through a jump would interfere with another, at least at the 
point of departure.  Thoughts?
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:20:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:20:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020411160312.A6708@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020412081911.B9083@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> Why does h influence the size of the atom?

The size of the atom depends upon the shape of the wavefunction of the
electrons in their ground state.  Roughly speaking, the probability of
finding an electron at a given distance from the atom starts to drop
off sharply at a distance determined by the relations of quantum
mechanics.  Those relation involve h.


> Also, how do we know that h is a fundamental constant and not
> dependant on the factors we might be changing (i.e. fundamental
> forces) with the intertial suppression scheme?

We don't.  The only problem is that if you change h (and everything
associated with it) to fit the requirement that people remain alive,
you get the result that nothing changes at all, including how much
acceleration the ship can take or how much power it takes to
accelerate it.


> I presume m_e is mass of electron and q_e is charge of the electron.
> pi is 'pi', and h is plank's.  I'm not sure what eps_0... something
> about the electrostatic attraction?

Yes; the electrostatic attractive force between two charges is
proportional to 1/(4 pi eps_0).  It is usually written as a greek
epsilon symbol with a subscript 0, but that's not possible in ASCII.


> Are you saying that by reducing the mass, the orbitals of the electrons
> are going to be larger?

If you don't change Planck's constant, yes.  The equation governing
the wavefunction of the electron (or any other thing, for that matter)
has a factor of (h^2 / 2 m) in it.  So the mass affects the shape.  It
turns out that if you reduce the mass and energy levels by a factor of
100, the distances increase by a factor of 100^2.


> Basically, what I'm driving at here, is if you dropped the values of
> the fundamental forces, would planck's constant also change as a
> result of that?

It appears not.  Planck's constant seems to be more fundamental than
the strengths of various forces.


> Well, I'm sorta torn between this idea and Alcubierre's FTL (space
> warping) idea, but we've discussed that one a few months ago, and
> if I remember correctly, you made the contention that it leads to
> wormholes and time travel, which we really don't want to deal with.

;^>  I can be a party-pooper, can't I?

Though I actually like the idea of FTL causality consequences.

Besides, wormholes probably automatically prevent causality paradoxes;
if they approach a configuration in which a closed timelike path
exists, zero-interval feedback may well destroy the wormholes involved
before you actually get any time travel effects.  This is a serious
conjecture in physics.  It also opens up interesting possibilities in
the game universe -- someone might do this deliberately for political
or military reasons.


> I'm shooting for something with a hard-SF feel.

You can still have FTL or inertial suppression with a hard-SF feel,
you just need to consider the consequences that physics geeks like me
are going to pick up, or alternatively try not go into details at all.
A rule of thumb is that you're allowed one big violation of
physics-as-we-know-it so long as you at least try to predict some of
the side effects.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:27:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:27:11 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>; from jenry023@student.liu.se on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:24:28PM +0200
References: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020411162610.A25877@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:24:28PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>
> Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> parts of the debate to TML chat?

Gun debate?  Do you mean the discussion of weapons useful for
killing/stopping roughly man-size targets?  Seems pretty on-topic to
me...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Asking a girl out is like finding sqrt(pi) using roman numerals.  --unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:30:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:30:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <200204112147.DVX03585@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411182555.01e801d0@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:47 PM 4/11/2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Is there not some safety standoff distance from one jump
>drive to another?  And what would that distance be?

My initial reaction is to say "100 diameters", or in this case, 100 ship 
lengths.  Beyond that distance, the jump field definitely won't be a 
problem.  Between 100 and 10 ship lengths, you've got possible problems, 
and under 10 ship lengths is definitely bad news.

Of course, the danger in this case is to both ships.  I would determine the 
result separately for each ship involved - so that one ship may not jump, 
or could misjump, or be destroyed, while the other ship has a different 
fate.  So you might make the other ship misjump (or you may not), but 
you're just as likely to misjump yourself.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:32:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:32:10 2002
Subject: [TML] FFS2 penetration
Message-ID: <B8DB5CBD.3972C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all.  How does one calculate penetration according FFS2 for small
arm?


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:36:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:36:10 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <200204112235.DVZ01545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>Gun debate?  Do you mean the discussion of weapons useful for
>killing/stopping roughly man-size targets?  Seems pretty on-
>topic to me...
>

Well, technically we could take it to tml-guntech.  We 
already have a considerable amount of discussion over there 
about weapons (what is a snub pistol anyway - go to tml-
guntech and find out..)

I try to have an ObTrav. Should I post my version of the 
combat system on tml or tml-guntech?
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:38:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:38:49 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155951.01dc24b0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8DB5E1A.39732%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 1:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Tod, what was the free recoil of that elephant rifle again?  For
> comparison.  I found your earlier calculations on the M1, M16, and gauss
> rifle, which were two orders of magnitude lower and then some compared to
> the above 65 gram bullet.
> 
> Hm, I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and plug in numbers for known
> weapons and science fiction weapons from time to time.  Then post on a Web
> site so all interested parties can reference it from time to time.

See my calculator at http://www.travellercentral.com

follow the links to House Rules : Projectile Weapons

(or go straight to http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/ke.html)

I just added penetration for TNE.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:41:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:41:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
Message-ID: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Derek Wildstar says
<snip derek's take on adjacent ships activating their 
hyperdrive>

That sounds pretty good. It means, however, that ships might 
have a minimum separation, which affects fleet actions.

Would we also have another problem a la B5? Starting one jump 
field within another?
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:43:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:43:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DB5EB6.39733%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 5:14 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> My first choice would probably be a .375 H&H. Much though I admire
> Weatherbys they cost too much and are generally over-powered if you're
> using solids - they'd tend to horribly over-penetrate anything but the
> heaviest game. With expansive bullets I'd drop to a .338 Winchester or
> .340 Weatherby unless in Africa, in which case the .375's would be the
> way to go, IMO. .416s and .458/.460s are good vs buffs, elephants, etc.
> but aren't long-range rounds, so you'd need a second rifle for those
> 300-500 yard shots on eland, etc.

Another classic 'smallbore'.  The only problem with the .375 H&H and rounds
based on it is that it requires a magnum length action. One of my alltime
favorites.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411183848.0188fa70@192.168.0.1>

Loren had mentioned a Traveller specific version of the GURPS character 
generation software was being considered.

Is this project a go?  If so, when would it see the light of day?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
           http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:51:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:51:15 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F107XkF81yvoXFMxmyh000181e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:41, Sam D wrote:

> I think this is a very good point.  Whether you are a hunter, acting
> in self defense, a cop or a soldier, your objective should be the
> same.  Despite occassional talk that hunters are content to let a
> wounded deer slip away or are very concerned about damaging too much
> meat, my experience is just the opposite. Most of the hunters I
> know, if an animal does not drop like a sack of bricks, immediately
> start thinking about practicing more or getting a more powerful
> rifle.  In fact, hunters and cops seem to take "stopping power" much
> more seriously than the military. 

To let an animal get away to die slowly over the course of hours or 
days is IMO horribly cruel, and utterly unsportsmanlike. I've had many 
arguments with people over goat culling because of this. For some years 
back in the 90s it was common 'sport' for a couple of guys to drive out 
to the back of a farm with goat problems (getting the owner's 
permission first, of course) and shoot up the goats with semi-auto 
rifles. The most common choices were SKS carbines or semi-auto only 
AK's. It was also common for many to simply fire into a mod of goats 
and then let the survivors wander off, gut shot or with broken legs. 
When I pointed out that this was cruel and that they'd be upset if I 
were to do this to a dog or a deer they'd look blank and say "but 
they're only goats." Then they'd wonder why I wouldn't associate with 
them any more.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:53:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:53:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <200204112251.DVZ03066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>Loren had mentioned a Traveller specific version of the 
>GURPS character generation software was being considered.
>
I've got most of the GURPS material, but not GT.  (Ultra 
Tech, Space, but not GT).  

I could get a copy of GT and try my hand at it.  Are there a 
lot of variations from the basic GURPS?  It wouldn't take too 
long to do.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:50:50AM +1200
References: <F107XkF81yvoXFMxmyh000181e3@hotmail.com> <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020411170142.A26003@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:50:50AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> To let an animal get away to die slowly over the course of hours or 
> days is IMO horribly cruel, and utterly unsportsmanlike.

Agreed but...

> When I pointed out that this was cruel and that they'd be upset if I 
> were to do this to a dog or a deer they'd look blank and say "but 
> they're only goats."

In NZ are goats viewed simpy as nuisance animals, or as something
more?  I wouldn't feel overly bad about mortally a shark, snake, wolf
or coyote and leaving it to die, but I'd never do the same for a deer,
duck or other animal.

How much of this is based on perception, I wonder?  The animals I
don't care about I either hate (sharks and snakes) or consider
varmints and pests (wolves & coyotes), whereas the ones I do are ones
I respect.

That said, I cannot see goats as a `nasty' animal (like the feral ones
I mentioned).  Nuisances, but no more than that.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ubi non accusator, ibi non judex.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:04:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
In-Reply-To: <200204112251.DVZ03066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:51:24PM -0400
References: <200204112251.DVZ03066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020411170334.B26003@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:51:24PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> I could get a copy of GT and try my hand at it.  Are there a lot of
> variations from the basic GURPS?  It wouldn't take too long to do.

Probably the most work would be inputting the lists of skills &c.
You'll want to rewrite (not simply paraphrase) the skill descriptions,
as they are copyrighted.  There is a process to get permission to use
them, but I typically prefer that my work be as free as possible of
encumbrances.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"Oh bother," said the Borg, "We've assimilated Pooh."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:06:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:06:11 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 17:24, Jens Rydholm wrote:

> Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> parts of the debate to TML chat?
> 
> Or else I'll begin posting socialist and communist propaganda...
> 
> (not a serious threat, but about as relevant)

But how can guns not be relevant to Traveller? :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:07:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:07:40 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <F99548IlvMTkL01NspD000142b4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6BF68.28920.307BF2@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:54, Sam D wrote:

> You are better off getting a cheap rifle and a more expensive scope.
>  Unless you are a very skilled rifleman, a decent scope (either 4x,
> 2-7 or 3-9) is a great asset.  Nice binocs are also important. 

Also with a scope it's a good idea to get one in which the objective 
lens size divided by the power (for a vari-power about mid-range will 
do for this) is 7mm or more. Less than this and the light gathering 
capacity isn't the best, no matter how clear the optics, and the 
scope's utility will drop off quickly in poor light conditions. Thus 
4x32 is adequate, 4x40 is very nice (though more than 8-10mm is more 
than your eye can use) and 6x32 not the best.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:10:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:10:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F70SDx1kLwxTQTYkWSz00001108@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6C056.18523.341AE7@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 15:31, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Yeah, I've got to think this over even more.  To my mind, minor
> race rebellions aided and abetted by Terran infiltrators should be a
> big part of the Interstellar Wars.  There would have been uprisings
> and sabotage a sector or so "behind" the fighting front and the
> minor race allies providing the lower-TL cannon fodder for the
> Alliance's offensives. 

That would certainly make sense once things got going (say after IW4 or 
thereabouts).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:11:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:11:44 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F56z8kI063RA5C2duii00023931@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6C056.6241.341BB4@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 18:05, Sam D wrote:

> Justin Kim said:
> 
> >	5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar
> >helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target
> >(titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle
> >velocity of 715m/s.
> 
> Is that a FN pistol round?  Are they talking about using it in anything 
> other than a pistol?
> 
> There was a lot of heartache going from .45 to 9m; can you imagine the howls 
> if they went to a .22 pistol?

No, it's for their personal defence weapon, the P90. Basically it's a 
late 1990s take on the SMG, but using a cut down rifle round rather 
than a pistol round, so it has a much better effective range than a 
normal SMG. They're the toys being used in the later seasons of 
Stargate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <p05101503b8db8ae2c7f1@[10.0.1.10]>
References: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6C0AF.31055.357841@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:55, Justin Kim wrote:

> 	It's supposed to leave large nasty wound cavities in the 
> target.  The website I referenced in my last post used to have a 
> picture of the track the round left in a block of ballistic gelatin. 
> I'm a complete novice, but it looked unpleasant to me :)
> 
> 	The 5.7x28mm round was designed to replace the 9mm because of 
> the 9mm's poor armor penetrating capabilities.

However most gun-nuts I know have come to the conclusion that it's 
better than a pistol, but nothing near as good as the 5.56x45mm at just 
about anything, especially wounding.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:16:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:16:52 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
In-Reply-To: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DB66BD.3974E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 5:36 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> I'm trying to make up my mind between the .375 and the .338.
> Since I'm in N. America, it may be the .338.

For NA, .338 is going to be fine, unless you're in Alaska and shooting moose
and polar bear.  Even then, you could probably manage alright.

Given you predilection for sniping, I'm surprised you didn't mention the
.338 Lapua.
> 
> The situations that Traveller characters find themselves in
> are rarely more than a few opponents, and most are armed
> (depending on the GM, of course) with pistols and short range
> weapons.  In one past campaign, I did rather well with a
> single-shot falling block rifle in .375 H&H.  I was playing a
> PH, and this was my "walking about" rifle.  I was infamous
> for killing three other player characters by shooting down
> their custom air raft (first shot hit the driver through the
> front, the second shot disabled the powerplant and the other
> two plummeted to their deaths).
> 
> If you also consider that Traveller gun combat is at about
> the same range as a Cape Buffalo encounter, and you're
> probably going to live for about as many shots (two, maybe
> three), then I think that whatever makes a good Cape Buffalo
> weapon might make a good Traveller combat weapon.
> 
> Let's see.  We'll make it .416 Remington, since we can still
> get Speer tungsten core solids.
> 
> The rifle should be a 4-shot controlled-feed pre-64
> Winchester action (with fixed ejector).  Barrel length should
> be 22 inches, and we'll go with a muzzle brake.  The stock
> should be optimized for firing on your hind legs, and we'll
> put a Trijicon Reflex sight on top, with express sights just
> in case that gets broken.

The new Winchester 'Classic' has controlled feed, and IIRC a fixed ejector.
But go first class and get one of Pete Grissel's Dakotas.  I think I pick a
ghost ring over express sights for adventuring.  Maybe 1x LER scope mounted
scout-like.
> 
> A PH should be able to get two or three quick aimed shots off
> with something like this.  I haven't seen many Traveller-
> style combats last more than a few combat rounds. And you'll
> only have to hit another human *once* with something like
> this.  Tod might make it a .458, though.

Maybe .470NE in a Searcy double rifle.  Two *really* quick shots, and reload
speed is not too bad if you practice.  Of course you have to have the gun
regulated for the planet and area your on.

For Armored targets, there always the .577NE in the double gun.
> 
> Get yourself a pouch that holds 20 rounds, maybe keep 40
> rounds in your pack.  More than enough for most Traveller
> adventures.


More numbers, 'cause it's more gearhead like:
(Stats are for TNE - FFS.  Loads are from A-Square's "Any Shot You Want")

Weapon  KE      RE  Dam   Recoil    Pen
.223    1801    4   3       3       1-Nil
.308    3536    19  4       4       2-3-Nil
.338    5526    50  6       6       2-4-6
.375    6097    64  6       6       2-4-6
.416    7232    80  6       6       2-4-6
.458    7090    87  6       6       2-4-6
.460    9780   146  7       7       2-4-6
.577NE  9042   167  6       6       2-4-6
.577TR  13188  197  8       7       2-3-4
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:19:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:19:15 2002
Subject: [TML] News from Delphi
References: <20020410143005.F2EB127AB3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB61A54.E69EDB1@together.net>

> From: "Graham Donald" <gndonald@hotmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:11:56 +0800
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I was wondering how is the Delphi history project going, I looked at their
> site, but it hasn't been updated since 2000.
> 

	I'm not sure of which site you are looking at, but the Delphi project
continues. The main project board is on JTAS (http://jtas.sjgames.com/
), become a subscriber if you are not already. 
	February 5th issue of JTAS contains the Delphi Foundation document, an
article describing the history, including a set of maps showing the
historical progression of colonization in the sector, a description of
some of the nobility, and a few of the more predominate groups. 

	The landgrab has begun, with a few worlds claimed and more ideas tossed
around. In addition to the foundation document, I also have a summary of
the discussions up to the point of the the writing of the foundation
document. 

	So, if you'd like to do a landgrab, but without having explain 20 years
of canon, or would like a more settled sector to play in come on over to
Delphi. The nice, safe core of the Imperium. 
-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:21:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:21:11 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <20020411135544.A25603@4dv.net>
References: <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200
Message-ID: <3CB6C311.15964.3EC7C1@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 13:55, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > 
> > Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle 
> > you like the look of.
> 
> Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
> _ugly_:-(

I rather like Ruger's line of stainless and synthetics. The almost 
skeletal green stocks look quite cool, IMO.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:30:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:30:10 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20020411170142.A26003@4dv.net>
References: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:50:50AM +1200
Message-ID: <3CB6C54B.24759.4779CF@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 17:01, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> > When I pointed out that this was cruel and that they'd be upset if I 
> > were to do this to a dog or a deer they'd look blank and say "but 
> > they're only goats."
> 
> In NZ are goats viewed simpy as nuisance animals, or as something
> more?  I wouldn't feel overly bad about mortally a shark, snake, wolf
> or coyote and leaving it to die, but I'd never do the same for a deer,
> duck or other animal.

A serious nuisance - feral goats damage farmland near bush, and do a 
_lot_ of damage to native bush, as do opossums and wasps - all imports. 
Deer move from vermin to game and back again, depending on how many 
there are and on politics.
 
> How much of this is based on perception, I wonder?  The animals I
> don't care about I either hate (sharks and snakes) or consider
> varmints and pests (wolves & coyotes), whereas the ones I do are ones
> I respect.
> 
> That said, I cannot see goats as a `nasty' animal (like the feral ones
> I mentioned).  Nuisances, but no more than that.

Whereas I don't see any reason why the morality of leaving animals to 
suffer should depend on their 'pleasantness' or the worthiness as game.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:31:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:31:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DB5EB6.39733%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB6C54B.322.477957@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 15:39, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Another classic 'smallbore'.  The only problem with the .375 H&H and
> rounds based on it is that it requires a magnum length action. One of
> my alltime favorites. 

I've never been that impressed by arguments for this round or that 
round based on action length. IME the speed of an action has more to do 
with it's overall design than it's length, and 'short stroking' occurs 
when people get cute and try to speed their reload up by not drawing 
the bolt all the way to the rear. The fastest reliable reload, 
regardless of action length, is to draw the bolt back until it stops, 
than push forward and down in one smooth motion. It's that simple.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:34:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:34:11 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <3CB6C311.15964.3EC7C1@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DB6B04.39757%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 4:20 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

>> 
>> Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
>> _ugly_:-(
> 
> I rather like Ruger's line of stainless and synthetics. The almost
> skeletal green stocks look quite cool, IMO.

I go all over the place.  I like the look of a well made synthetic stock.
Not the plastic injection-molded ones, but the laminated  ones like H-S
Precision, Griffen and Bell and the like.

Nothing beats wood for looks though.  I have several nice pieces of walnut,
one Bubinga and one Cocobolo waiting to be inletted.  Cocobolo is very
beautiful, heavy, tough and expensive.  I wanted to bring the weight of my
.458 up and decided on a dense wood rather than a mercury recoil reducer.
The wood is georgeous.  Now to wait a year or two so it dries properly.

If things gel, my wife we get sent to the international law enforcement
academy in Botswana. If that happens, you know where I'll be. :)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:37:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:37:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
References: <200204111918.DVS00303@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d601c1e1b1$c48e36c0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Niches


> shadow@krypton.rain.com says
> >
> >That pushes the 1 kJ pulse to *gigawatt* power levels in the 
> >rifle. Even if it's only for a microsecond, a gigawatt is a 
> lot of power.
> >
> You should realize then the power of the current smokeless 
> powder cartridges.  We're raising 5 to 8 kJ (depending on 
> caliber) in seven-tenths of a millisecond.

5kJ in 0.0007s =>   7.14 MW
8kJ in 0.0007s => 11.43 MW

So you have about 100 times less power...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:00:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:00:15 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <B8DB6B04.39757%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB6C311.15964.3EC7C1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB6CC2B.3222.6256C7@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 16:32, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Nothing beats wood for looks though.  I have several nice pieces of walnut,
> one Bubinga and one Cocobolo waiting to be inletted.  Cocobolo is very
> beautiful, heavy, tough and expensive.  I wanted to bring the weight of my
> .458 up and decided on a dense wood rather than a mercury recoil reducer.
> The wood is georgeous.  Now to wait a year or two so it dries properly.

My father has a Swedish Mauser from 1899, and it has the most amazing 
tiger-stripe stock. The first thing we said when we saw it was "Now 
don't you wish you could put that stock on the .30-06?"
 
> If things gel, my wife we get sent to the international law enforcement
> academy in Botswana. If that happens, you know where I'll be. :)

Sitting at home minding the kids, of course.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:01:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:01:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <00d601c1e1b1$c48e36c0$52200050@matt>
References: <200204111918.DVS00303@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <00d601c1e1b1$c48e36c0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020412095904.A9693@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> 8kJ in 0.0007s => 11.43 MW
> 
> So you have about 100 times less power...

The best figures I've seen require about 20 MW for a laser weapon.  1
kJ in a microsecond is bad because you only get a surface explosion,
no penetration at all.  1 kJ in 100 pulses of about half a microsecond
each is much better.

Besides, I've personally built a laser that produces a pulse with a
power of about a gigawatt.  If properly made, it could fit into pistol
size.  Peak power means nothing.  Pulse *energies* and *sustained*
power are what makes weapon lasers difficult to build.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:04:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:04:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB6C54B.322.477957@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DB71E0.3977B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 4:30 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> I've never been that impressed by arguments for this round or that
> round based on action length. IME the speed of an action has more to do
> with it's overall design than it's length, and 'short stroking' occurs
> when people get cute and try to speed their reload up by not drawing
> the bolt all the way to the rear. The fastest reliable reload,
> regardless of action length, is to draw the bolt back until it stops,
> than push forward and down in one smooth motion. It's that simple.

It has more to do with the scarcity of magnum length actions that are
suitable for dangerous game.  Thankfully, Winchester has brought out the
'classic' action and some good stuff is coming in from Brno.  Sorry,
Remington just doesn't cut it and I don't care for Ruger.  That diagonal
screw is worthless.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:10:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:10:10 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB6C54B.24759.4779CF@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:30:19AM +1200
References: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>; <20020411170142.A26003@4dv.net> <3CB6C54B.24759.4779CF@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020411180903.A26285@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:30:19AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Whereas I don't see any reason why the morality of leaving animals to 
> suffer should depend on their 'pleasantness' or the worthiness as game.

I should point out that I'd not deliberately mis-hit the animals on my
hate-list, or even leave them to suffer; it's just that I wouldn't
track 'em down to deliver a mercy shot, whereas I would try to for the
better animals.  Rapid-firing into a herd of goats is right out.
About the only animals I'd even consider that about are sharks.  I
hate sharks.  And even then I'd poss. not condone it.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I can see an opening for the Four Lusers of the Apocalypse: `I didn't
change anything'; `My e-mail doesn't work';  `I can't print' and `Is the
network broken?'                                          --Paul McAuley

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:22:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:22:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DB71E0.3977B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB6C54B.322.477957@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB6D156.3272.7687E7@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 17:01, Tod Glenn wrote:

> It has more to do with the scarcity of magnum length actions that are
> suitable for dangerous game.  Thankfully, Winchester has brought out the
> 'classic' action and some good stuff is coming in from Brno.  Sorry,
> Remington just doesn't cut it and I don't care for Ruger.  That diagonal
> screw is worthless.

I've liked all the Ruger's I've handled, and not because of the screw, 
either. They've pointed fairly well, had decent triggers (for an out-of-
the-box rifle in their price range) and smooth actions. They also look 
pretty good to me (YMMV) and were accurate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:47:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:47:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
In-Reply-To: <4b.1b7f2094.29e70e82@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411172243.009f1c90@mindspring.com>

--=====================_9693781==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 12:06 PM 4/11/02 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet
>cover.  In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.
>
>   And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the first 
> place? The Lt. maybe? lol!

No, it was just part of the 3-color woodland cammo on the helmet 
cover.  Completely random.  But useful at night.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
--=====================_9693781==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 12:06 PM 4/11/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite><font face="arial" size=2>From:
Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt; <br><br>
I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet
<br>
cover.&nbsp; In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar. <br><br>
&nbsp; And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the
first place? The Lt. maybe? lol! </font></blockquote><br>
No, it was just part of the 3-color woodland cammo on the helmet
cover.&nbsp; Completely random.&nbsp; But useful at night.<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="arial" size=2>--<br><br>
Douglas E. Berry&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
gridlore@mindspring.com<br>
<a href="http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html" eudora="autourl">http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.</a><a href="http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html" eudora="autourl">html<br>
</a><a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/" eudora="autourl">http://</a>www.livejournal<a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/" eudora="autourl">.com/users/gridlore/</a><br><br>
&quot;Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<br>
sounds like they're snoring.&quot; - Harvey Danger</font></html>

--=====================_9693781==_.ALT--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:48:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:48:39 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020411162610.A25877@4dv.net>
References: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411172651.009f1230@mindspring.com>

At 04:26 PM 4/11/02 -0600, you wrote:
>On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:24:28PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> >
> > Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> > parts of the debate to TML chat?
>
>Gun debate?  Do you mean the discussion of weapons useful for
>killing/stopping roughly man-size targets?  Seems pretty on-topic to
>me...

Maybe at first, but it has long past the point where there is any 
game-usable material.

I agree, either private mail or TML-chat.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:51:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:51:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <200204120047.DWD04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>Probably the most work would be inputting the lists of 
>skills &c. You'll want to rewrite (not simply paraphrase) 
>the skill descriptions, as they are copyrighted.  There is a 
>process to get permission to use them, but I typically 
>prefer that my work be as free as possible of
>encumbrances.
>

I wouldn't mind the following: I write it exactly to the 
specs.  We get approval for a time-limited playtest - they 
say it's good, and they distribute it.  If they make 
anything,  I get a piece.  If it's for free, then I get my 
name on the package.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:06:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:06:10 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
Message-ID: <200204120105.DWD07544@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Given you predilection for sniping, I'm surprised you didn't 
>mention the .338 Lapua.

In the Sako rifle?  Probably.  But then again, I'm trying to 
get into a different niche.  Ever try to find the .338 Lapua 
at the store? Oh, that's right, you're in Oregon...

The main reason I handload is that Maryland State Law has 
funny rules - you can't sell the latest types of ammunition 
that a manufacturer produces without "approval" (there is a 
similar thing for models of handgun - new models of handgun 
are very rarely approved for sale - it took four years for 
the Encore to appear in Maryland).

>But go first class and get one of Pete Grissel's Dakotas.  I 
>think I pick a ghost ring over express sights for 
>adventuring.  Maybe 1x LER scope mounted
>scout-like.

I can get a Dakota action in the white from Brownell's and 
put the thing together myself.  Then I could send it out to 
get blued.  I'm not yet willing to do the really dirty work 
like bluing.

Ah, now I have it.  By your charts, the .338 is a good 
compromise. Did they ever make the Valmet 412 in .338?  It's 
been discontinued, but it makes a fast two shots.

You could, when it was sold, get extra barrel combinations 
for the same receiver.  So I could get a "shorty" double-12, 
loaded with SCIMTR for shipboard use.  Get the double .338 
for outside work.  And double .460 for pesky critters.

It's too bad the Krag action isn't that strong.  I really 
like that ability to top off the magazine without opening the 
weapon.

If I was playing in your campaign, I think I would be a PH, 
and would probably have a brace of doubles as per above.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:12:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:12:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Matthew Bond" says
<snip laser power>

I think I did a laser calculation on tml-guntech
which has a 6.8kJ laser in 0.7 milliseconds (not 
microseconds) that is more than capable of penetrating 30cm 
of flesh.  The assumption was made that I would be vaporizing 
a column of water, in 0.7 milliseconds, and that the target 
spot would be 1mm x 1mm.  We came up with 1000 times the 
power required to do the minimum vaporization and it came
out to 6.8 kJ.

So, it's the same as the .338.

Wavelength is 1.3nm, using a overtone deuterium flouride 
laser.  
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
In-Reply-To: <200204120105.DWD07544@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6DDB7.14961.A6E275@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 21:05, John T. Kwon wrote:

> It's too bad the Krag action isn't that strong.  I really 
> like that ability to top off the magazine without opening the 
> weapon.

How about a weapon like the Lee-Enfields in which there was a cut-off 
over the magazine. You engaged the cut-off so that the rounds could be 
fed from the magazine and loaded shots individually when you weren't i 
a hurry. When the sh*t went everywhere you'd disengage the cut-off and 
have a full magazine available.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:46:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:46:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Written by the Victors (was: Matters of Will)
In-Reply-To: <20020412005325.F414D27A9A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020411183439.00a4cec0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 19:20:27, "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> 
wrote:

>     The Terrans had help, and lots of it.

Not to mention their microscopic buddies - "the humblest creatures which 
God, in His wisdom, placed upon the Earth."  :)

But bacteria and minor races don't edit library data, and so, a thousand 
years and change later, the popular history has it that the Brave and 
Ingenious Terrans somehow managed to hold out for centuries against the 
full might of the Empire, then miraculously sweep over it to throw down the 
hated Vilani Overlords in mere decades.  (And then promptly fumbled the 
ball themselves, but the Solomani don't like to talk about that part.)

The academics know better, of course, but who ever listens to crazy old 
scholars?  Aside from down-on-their-luck free trader crews, that is.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:59:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:59:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the
 list)
In-Reply-To: <200204120047.DWD04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411215441.02284008@192.168.0.1>

At 08:47 PM 4/11/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>"Robert A. Uhl" says
> >Probably the most work would be inputting the lists of
> >skills &c. You'll want to rewrite (not simply paraphrase)
> >the skill descriptions, as they are copyrighted.  There is a
> >process to get permission to use them, but I typically
> >prefer that my work be as free as possible of
> >encumbrances.
>I wouldn't mind the following: I write it exactly to the
>specs.  We get approval for a time-limited playtest - they
>say it's good, and they distribute it.  If they make
>anything,  I get a piece.  If it's for free, then I get my
>name on the package.

Why reinvent the wheel here?
SJG already has a very nice character creation program (ok, so may you guys 
wanna do a LINUX port).
Ok, so the nice part is MHO from playing with the demo version.
What Loren was talking about before was the program they have tailored to 
Traveller.
Plus a big bonus of some method of generating/converting characters for 
other flavors of Traveller:
CT, Mega:T, TNE, T4...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:08:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:08:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411024937.01dc7010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020412020513.B8D47279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/11/02 at 02:50 AM,  laning <laning@wizard.net> said:

>Wow, hadn't realized that 'Salon' had already visited the PBEM world.

>Thanks for the good URLs.

You're welcome. 

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:19:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:19:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <200204120218.DWG00159@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>
>What Loren was talking about before was the program they 
>have tailored to Traveller.
>Plus a big bonus of some method of generating/converting 
>characters for other flavors of Traveller:
>CT, Mega:T, TNE, T4...
>

That's what I'm talking about.  No sense in writing the GURPS 
thingie again.  But a Traveller generator.  Might be nice to 
have one that did all systems from beginning to end.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:21:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:21:37 2002
Subject: [TML] [PROPOSAL] The Fornast Project
Message-ID: <LAW2-F100BKhwWn5WNW000021c5@hotmail.com>

The Fornast Project

I was wondering whether anyone would be interested in helping to detail 
Fornast Sector in the same way & using the same procedures/guidelines as the 
Delphi Project.

As a startpoint, there are the maps & UWP's at Anthony's Maps Site 
(http://maps.grandsurvey.com). Also whatever canon information was 
published.

A quick scan of the names indicates that people of Solomani descent had a 
major hand in naming the sector, several worlds appear to have been named 
for authors, artists and locations on Terra.

If anyone is interested in joining me, please contact me directly at 
gndonald@hotmail.com, use the subject heading [FORNAST].

Graham


This is the Universe ... Big isn't it?


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:48:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:48:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space 
travel, etc.?

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:55:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:55:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411225254.019d0e50@192.168.0.1>

Is this for a PBEM or a F2F?

At 10:46 PM 4/11/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
>Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space
>travel, etc.?
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:59:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:59:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120258.DWH03019@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin asks
>
>Is this for a PBEM or a F2F?

PBEM.  The F2F will be coming in May.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:22:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:22:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <F156LszeIOVn1KL99o200017a04@hotmail.com>

Traveller optics reflect (suprise) what was available in the 1970s.  
Basically, you are getting a hunting scope.

Since then, combat optics have become light and tough enough for general 
issue, and have basically developed along two lines.  First, the "dot" type, 
like the Aimpoint Comp M or Trijicon Reflex, have no magnification but 
vastly increase the speed of target acquision versus irons.  The second 
type, like the ELCAN or Trijicon ACOG, are low magnification scopes (in the 
1.5 to 4 power range) which give greater precision at longer range and 
probably also have slightly increased speed over irons at short range.  With 
either type of optic, you shoot with both eyes open and the recticle glows.

How could these two very different types of optics be integrated into 
Traveller?  They seem to be a pretty important development, but our poor 
heroes in the 53rd century are still stuck with iron sight or the vague 
supersight on the ACR & Gauss Rifle.  I looked over the CT rules and there 
is no provision for having a "fast" weapon, when that is probably pretty 
important.  Do other versions have weapon speed?

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:34:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:34:28 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F114GuOJ75lRN8aK38o0000ff5e@hotmail.com>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:

>On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> >
> > Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle
> > you like the look of.
>
>Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
>_ugly_:-(

Call me klutz, but I am so rough on guns that I am afraid to take the woods 
out of the safe.  There is also a certain utilitarian beauty to a synthetic 
stock.  Plus, in case no one has noticed, I kind of like black rifles.  ;)

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:35:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:35:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <200204120333.DWJ00923@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>With either type of optic, you shoot with both eyes open and 
>the recticle glows.
>

When I shoot with the Leupold Mark V M3, I shoot with both 
eyes open.  It has no glowing reticle.  If you're closing 
your eyes when using a scope, you're making yourself very 
uncomfortable and reducing your peripheral vision. Makes it 
hard to use a scope on a running target.

>How could these two very different types of optics be 
>integrated into Traveller?  

The combat system *sucks*.  If you see the rules for increase 
in aim modifier by time spent aiming in PCCS, and combine 
that with maximum ballistic accuracy at each range, you get 
an extremely accurate picture of how much quicker certain 
weapons and sighting systems can be at various ranges, and 
how much benefit they provide at various ranges.  The detail 
is so well done that you can actually differentiate between 
weapons.

There is nothing like this in Traveller.  The arguments that 
you see us have about "this weapon and sight" vs. "that 
weapon and sight" actually translate into the model in PCCS.

OTOH, the character generation in PCCS *sucks*
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
In-Reply-To: <200204120105.DWD07544@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DBA6E8.397D0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 6:05 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
>> Given you predilection for sniping, I'm surprised you didn't
>> mention the .338 Lapua.
> 
> In the Sako rifle?  Probably.  But then again, I'm trying to
> get into a different niche.  Ever try to find the .338 Lapua
> at the store? Oh, that's right, you're in Oregon...

Actually, I like the Accuracy International.

> I can get a Dakota action in the white from Brownell's and
> put the thing together myself.  Then I could send it out to
> get blued.  I'm not yet willing to do the really dirty work
> like bluing.

Gonna turn your own barrel and everything?  I build rifles all the time.  I
wouldn't care to try to match the stock fitting they do at Dakota.
> 
> Ah, now I have it.  By your charts, the .338 is a good
> compromise. Did they ever make the Valmet 412 in .338?  It's
> been discontinued, but it makes a fast two shots.
>
How about a Browning BAR (the civilian one) in .338.  I see they're still
making them.  4 quick shots.  Believe it on not, I've seen a BAR rebarreled
to .458.
> 
> It's too bad the Krag action isn't that strong.  I really
> like that ability to top off the magazine without opening the
> weapon.

One locking lug
> 
> If I was playing in your campaign, I think I would be a PH,
> and would probably have a brace of doubles as per above.

I run a PH myself.  He's an NPC now.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020412135535.A10116@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> The assumption was made that I would be vaporizing 
> a column of water, in 0.7 milliseconds, and that the target 
> spot would be 1mm x 1mm.  We came up with 1000 times the 
> power required to do the minimum vaporization and it came
> out to 6.8 kJ.

That's odd, I get 500 J/m for minimum-energy vaporization of water in
such a column.  Multiplying that by 0.3 metres and a factor of 1000
gives me 150 kJ.

In general, the problem with single-pulse lasers is that the vapour
(and/or plasma) absorbs and/or scatters most of the incoming energy.
Even for a 1 mm spot size and relatively long 0.7 ms pulse, you'll
mainly get a surface crater rather than a drilled hole because most of
the energy is scattered and absorbed outside the target.

The easiest way to avoid this is to lengthen the pulses until plasma
heating isn't an issue any more, but this means that the target will
probably move too far during the "pulse".

The next easiest is to have many very short pulses that cause
miniature explosions, and enough time between pulses for most of the
products to clear (in the first few pulses near the surface) or widen
the damage channel (in later pulses).  Rather than vaporization, the
primary damage mechanism becomes kinetic energy of the products.  This
is more effective on living targets, since it takes a *lot* more
energy to vaporize tissue or bone than to tear or break it.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:11:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:11:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <F626HHGNZ4mF1IT18ol00001f93@hotmail.com>

What is PCCS?

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:11:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:11:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204121200450.15966-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Derek:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> Good scenario hook.

 Thank You

> IMTU, there are Imperial standards for data storage and media, mainly
> promulgated by the Scout Service.  This is not a standard in the sense that
> all equipment is required by law to support it, but rather a de-facto
> standard in the sense that the IISS X-boat system uses a specific set of
> formats to transfer messages.

 Funny but I would personally thing that to be the case in this reality.
But I learned from a Coast Guard friend that they  train for some work on
Max. Then have a Unix/Lynix system in the field. I know that the holywood
special effects people love the Amiga and Light Wave prg. The Amiga
version. Remembering that in 93 Speilburg <sp?> was offering full new
price for old 1200s and 400s just to have a stock pile of the Amiga
special-custom chips. I know from a Video made by an Amiga Group, that I
had to return. That Nasa uses Amiga 1200s and Amiga 4000s. Recently I
learened that the IRS doesn't keep  old Windrone machines. So the records
kept say on a Winblown 95v1 is not viewable by the IRS. Keep that in mind
for an audit. Got that from the H&R block people in town.

 Personally and this is for MTU rebirth. I see things as being very
chaotic.By that I mean for example. Take the  computer wars of the 1908s.
FWIW the computers won <BG> I sold TRS <a.k.a. TRaSh> 80s for Rasio Shack
as a local tech. OK it is a known fact that Billy hates. But he did sell
his "Basic OS" to Jack Tramiel creator of Commodore and all rights for
$7500 <I'll send the e-mail addy of the man that was there to any one that
asks, Mr. Jim Butterfield>. The TRS 80, C=64, PET, Vic-20, C-16, Plus/4,
C=128, PC II, Colt. Those save the thr TRS 80 all being 8 bit C= modles.
These all had different forms of Basic as an OS along with a built in
interpreter.

 O.K. add the different Apples, Atarai, Franklin, Osborne <sp?> and for
the U.K. members I will mention the Speccy <Spectrum: flame wars on
comp.sys.cbm about this one> Each had a different basic. To the point that
they wer pretty much incompatible with each other. I know that ther were
other models using other Basic formats and loading. I know that my
prefered PC system uses GCR formatiing. I think another one is called MFD,
but am not certain of the title.

 Now take all of those and what I missed. Add to that the IBuM system
starting from the Pc jr. to current. All the differeent versions of the
windoze NT and ## themes. I mean can you today on the X thing read a disk
from a PC jr  on original media/format?

 Then add to all of that the number of imperial worlds and Independent
worlds. We won't ask about Darrians, Sword Worldsm hiver or the Zho. <BG>

 You did bring up a point that I was alluding to, a standard for Imperial
ships. Though the used Gazelle may not have even if it is a Fiery variant
<most popular IMTU> the current system. If this system is based off the
windoze. Then it is impossible to read a 20+ old disk. Even if Imperial.
Yeah I am a Wintel Basher and proud of it. <SEG> In a game concept. What I
am wondering as an example. Say your game in CT is in in 1105. Your ship
is 1095 era. Rather new for a team I know. But the disk you uncover.
Though Imperial is from say 1075. Based on todays theorem of disposable
computers. How can the competer man on the ship read it? <A> the equipment
<B> the current skill of the compter man. Does though make a great sotry
line. Now if you add the local tech level flavour on a computer and for
the use of the citizens of the planet in question..... Oy such Tsuris!

> It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the
> Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of
> pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding
> and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of
> languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate,
> lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications
> protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of
> getting messages into and out of the system.

 Point well stated. Computer incompatibilities would make the Imperiaum
fall apart. Before the MT saga. Pardon me for using the Commodore as an
example platform in this part. It is however the only one that I know to
any degree. On the concept of  being standard for msg and images. I see a
parrel to the C= PC platform. Take this msg that I am writing. Written in
PINE 4.44 my e-mail system. Sent out in ASCII. Though my actual system
uses the PET ascii as it's default system. HTML though for a msg does bug
me and a lot of people. On my system it presents all the commands as well
as the msg. Yet I can use a prg from last year called Wave B2.9 <still
Beta> that allows me to read in 80c HTML. In fact my book mark file is
converted that way. JOs a free Beta Test DL also will read on screen HTML.

 Images: I can veiw off line GIF and JPG files. Also I can pritn them
through Post Script and even EPS <Encapsulated Post Script> Images. There
is a tool that I haven't had yet to use. That will convert PDF to PS for
my use and zip it in PK2.04g zip. A format that I can also use in packing
and unpacking. All on a 1984 PC.

 My point of the above is that there is probably that there are those that
will upgrade the hardware and software for their system. As is being done
for mine. Though admittedly along a different vector than the windrone
system.

> The net result should be similar to the modern Internet - any computer
> manufacturer who hopes to have any significant market share at all ensures
> that their equipment can read and write the standard media and formats, and
> can speak the standard protocols.  This doesn't prevent the manufacturers
> from building machines that also support proprietary encoding and
> formats.  However, if you're stuck with a data chip in one of those
> formats, your best bet is to try to find the machine that wrote it, and
> copy the data to a standard format.

 As i showed above. There would be those that would create ways to use the
systems to see the new items. Though I do have a tendency to bristle at
the term "standard". Been a victim of that erronous ideaology many times
in many situations. I do think that some sort of "chip" is needed for the
interchange of Imperial  material. Though there are probaly PRGs to
convert the material to local standards. As i have tools to convert Ascii
to PET ascii. Or the ability to log onto a BBS or even here with Ansi
colours. Making the material sutible for the local inhabitants and the
systems that they are using. The question is the reverse possible? Which
is where the  story plot originated.

 Using today as an example. Can the Windoze users here read a file that I
make? Well some of them they can. The previously mentioned gwimport.exe
file. But that is only for text, not the images. There are emulators if
the file is make in that format <.D64, .D71, .D81> But only work if the
user hs the tool to use the files. Vice 1.8 IIRC. So I would suggest that
something in the reverse that is from local to Imperial would need to have
ben created. Or t here is some sort of thing. Like you mentioned the Inet.
Where the ability to collect items of interest is found in some form of
compatible mannerism.

 Though I sincerly doubt that the Imperium would alow any sort of history
revisionist group such as micro$oft to maintian such a terrorist strangle
hold on things.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:11:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:11:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <20020410.001437.-391371.2.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204121246530.15966-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:


 Davmoh Casan?????

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411234005.01fed258@mail.qrc.com>

At 06:38 PM 4/11/2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
>That sounds pretty good. It means, however, that ships might
>have a minimum separation, which affects fleet actions.

Compared to weapon ranges or the movement scale of the Traveller ship to 
ship combat board games, a separation of 100 ship lengths is insignificant 
(required ship to ship separations are going to be on the order of 
10km-100km; ship combat scales are on the order of 
10,000km-100,000km).  It'd take a pretty large fleet for the separations to 
make the formation extend out of a single Brilliant Lances hex, for example.

>Starting one jump field within another?

I would assume that "actually inside one another" is a special case of "too 
close" presumably the separation between the drives in this case would be 
one on the order of a ship length or less - the rough equivalent of 
attempting a jump from a planetary surface.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:22:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <200204120421.DWL00090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" asks
>
>What is PCCS?

Phoenix Command Combat System.  There is no substitute.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:31:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
References: <200204120421.DWL00090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB662B4.8090706@yarranet.net.au>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> "Sam D" asks
> 
>>What is PCCS?

> 
> Phoenix Command Combat System.  There is no substitute.

Unless of course you favour a cinematic "I have a gun and I shoot them 
with it" style of play in which case CT or Fudge may be the combat 
system for you. Each to their own.

Phill
(Who has played using the PCCS related Aliens RPG system and knows it's 
not his cup of tea but understands that others love that sort of thing)
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:34:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:34:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DBB173.39814%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 7:46 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
> Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space
> travel, etc.?

What are you looking for characterwise?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:34:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DBB1B6.39815%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 7:46 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
> Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space
> travel, etc.?


BTW.  When are you going to post something on the Corridor website or add
description to the mail list?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:40:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:40:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120438.DWL01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>  
>
>What are you looking for characterwise?
>
More Intel characters, especially a computer expert.

We have shooters and ship drivers, a lawyer, and one incoming 
intel type.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:41:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:41:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120439.DWL01247@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

This weekend.  I'll update the description tonight, though.
I wrote a lot of game material this week.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:47:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:47:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
Message-ID: <OF58588BF9.5C945756-ONCA256B99.0016233C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Zane commented:
>>In fact, I was having a discussion this afternoon with a coworker about
>>whether anybody would ever have the testicular fortitude to make a 
series
>>of movies based on the Lensman or Family D'Alembert series.
>>
>I'm scared to think what a mess a studio would make out of it!

You are also forgetting that the Family D'Alembert series _IS_ Traveller!

Or as close as nevermind.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:58:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:58:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411234005.01fed258@mail.qrc.com>
References: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020411234005.01fed258@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <20020412145541.A10353@freeman.little-possums.net>

Derek Wildstar wrote:
> It'd take a pretty large fleet for the separations to make the
> formation extend out of a single Brilliant Lances hex, for example.

Only a million ships or so...


> I would assume that "actually inside one another" is a special case
> of "too close" presumably the separation between the drives in this
> case would be one on the order of a ship length or less - the rough
> equivalent of attempting a jump from a planetary surface.

Of course, one "ship length" for a dreadnaught might be 10 diameters
for a free trader...  The Tigress might be safe, but the trader has
all sorts of problems.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 23:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 11 22:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEELHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412012202.01dde140@pop.wizard.net>

Frank Pitt:
>People are discussing "open source" or free game rules and
>claiming it's going to put game designers out of work.

You overstate what I was saying.  My thesis is that if open source RPG 
design gets really successful, then it will put at least some designers out 
of work.  If.  How many are displaced depends on the success level.  It's a 
very small industry.

>This is basically crap.

Don't be shy, tell us how you really feel.  <G>


>FUDGE is sold, and it is completely freely available at the same
>time.

Most RPG players of my acquaintance ( a _lot_ of people over the last 25+ 
years) are either unaware of FUDGE's existence or don't care about 
it.  Most FUDGE owners of my acquaintance paid somebody for it.


>GURPS Lite is given away, as were the basic rules for Alternity,
>among others.

I've known a lot more GURPS owners than FUDGE owners, and not one of them 
had the free version.


>The D20 system is "open source" and there are many designers
>making money off it, (or planning to make money off it) including
>Hunter Gordon on this list.

Yes.  I am curious to see how D20 will be doing over the coming months and 
years.

Again, I rarely see the world in stark black and white.  I don't think it's 
a choice between a world that includes open source RPG design but wipes 
professional designers out of existence, or has professional designers but 
no open source designers.  But it's a small industry/marketplace and even 
modest changes might affect it in big way.

My personal preference is we charge ahead with both professional and open 
source, and meanwhile the rest of the world buys a clue and realizes how 
much fun they can be having if they join in.  It beats watching reruns on 
TV.  The market explodes, and good fortune is had by all.

--Laning
"Imagine..."  -John Lennon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 00:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204120903310.10371-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> > parts of the debate to TML chat?
> > Or else I'll begin posting socialist and communist propaganda...
> > (not a serious threat, but about as relevant)
> 
> But how can guns not be relevant to Traveller? :)

Perhaps it is just the Scandinavian socialist welfare state mindset, but I
have also trouble seeing how modern guns relates to Traveller.

I might understand this on a PCCS list, and I might even subscribe one,
did I own the game, but this seems a bit excessive.

I understood that there is a tml-gun list somewhere. Please take your
discussion there, if you need to continue. 

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 00:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] forced to unsubscribe for a bit
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412022408.01dde4e0@pop.wizard.net>

My ISP is doing bad things with my mail server.  I seem to be able to send 
but not receive.  I haven't seen any new TML traffic for the last 24 hours 
or so.  To prevent the incoming-email equivalent of Three Mile Island, I am 
turning off my TML subscription for awhile.  I apologize to anyone who I 
was also on a thread that I was participating in.  Or maybe you're just as 
glad.  :->>

Back in a day or so.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 00:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <DAV32eCyWu1MRRNOqcC0001c03c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIECKEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

> > Star Wars Name =
> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
> > name
> >
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town
> > where you were born.

Antfa Rilon (eek) or
Tonfa Rilon (a bit better)

Antony (call me Tony) Farrell


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 01:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Fri Apr 12 00:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Unpublished Material Question
Message-ID: <LAW2-F94snwO5UGXtTG000025a5@hotmail.com>

I was wondering if anyone has a list of all the Traveller(MT, TNE) material 
that GDW advertised, but did not release, also if anyone has any info as to 
how far along the material was before it was canned?

It would make for interesting reading.

Graham

This is the Universe ... Big isn't it?


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 01:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 00:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <memo.472174@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B8DBB173.39814%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
May I pass this around to other potentially interested parties, or do you 
want to keep it on the TML?

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 04:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Fri Apr 12 03:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] BITS website updated - Includes Travellercon.....
Message-ID: <B9A03CCD-4DFC-11D6-9B38-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support
http://www.bits.org.uk/

The BITS website has been updated to include details of this weekend's 
Traveller Con at Hebden Bridge, and the forthcoming Dudley Bug Ball, 
Fantasy Fair in Peterborough, Strange Days, GenCon UK and Dragonmeet 2002.
  Loads of crunchy goodness.

Have a look at the Traveller events that are on in the UK!!

Dom
BITS webmaster
webmaster@bits.org.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 05:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 04:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204121124.DWZ00277@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mexal, 
Yes you may pass it around.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 05:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 12 04:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RealLife(tm) Battledress, next chapter
References: <20020412005325.F414D27A9A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6CA44.BBDCD63E@earthlink.net>

Leonard Erickson posted:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > This is kinda fun...
> >
> > http://www.aro.army.mil/soldiernano/
> >
> >
> > David
>
> Gee, you sent this on March 3, 1987. Slow X-boat?

Must be those posts on inertial suppression. <grin>


Actually it was a messed-up loaner laptop from work.


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 06:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 05:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204120903310.10371-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>

On 12 Apr 2002 at 9:06, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> Perhaps it is just the Scandinavian socialist welfare state mindset, but I
> have also trouble seeing how modern guns relates to Traveller.

Well if you cast your eye over the list of guns in CT's Book 1 and 
their descriptions you'll note that aside from the laser rifle they're 
all weapons you could find in a gun store or on a battlefield in 1970.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:05:08 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
References: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost> <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Well if you cast your eye over the list of guns in CT's Book 1 and 
> their descriptions you'll note that aside from the laser rifle they're 
> all weapons you could find in a gun store or on a battlefield in 1970.

... which means that we already have all the information we need on those
guns in our game.

Please...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
 <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>
 <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412091256.01fc0e98@192.168.0.1>

At 03:06 PM 4/12/2002 +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > Well if you cast your eye over the list of guns in CT's Book 1 and
> > their descriptions you'll note that aside from the laser rifle they're
> > all weapons you could find in a gun store or on a battlefield in 1970.
>... which means that we already have all the information we need on those
>guns in our game.

Nah...it means it needs a big old gearhead update...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty 
clearly to protect political discourse.
But liberals reject the notion that free speech is therefore limited to 
political topics, even broadly defined.
True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself. But why leap 
to the conclusion that a broadly
worded constitutional freedom ("the right of the people to keep and bear 
arms") is narrowly limited by its
stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away? My New Republic 
colleague Mickey Kaus says that if
liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest 
of the Bill of Rights, there would be
law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory." -- Michael Kinsley 
Washington Post, January 8, 1990
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <OFC6A9CE02.C6420851-ON85256B99.004870A4@pheaa.org>





Mark Urbin asks
>
>Is this for a PBEM or a F2F?

>PBEM.  The F2F will be coming in May.

What is F2F?

also will the gm give us pregened chars?

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:45:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:45:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F195GoE1k8LN6FWe7Xl0000b978@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB78DC2.16250.66B1EA2@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002, at 0:35, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      The Ziru Sirka, while stagnant, is ahead of the Terrans in the tech 
> race.  Sure the Terrans can catch up, if they're given the time.  I just 
> can't quite understand why they were given the time.

The reasons are simple but conviluted.

1) In the ZS, the way to advance one's career was through the 
successful management of "prestige" sector (ie one that had "the 
eye" of the central government). For much of its history (at least 
until the 8th IW), the Solomani Rim was one of the backwaters and 
as such it was governed by a long succession of chair warmers,  
the disgraced and the occassional outright incompetant. Any 
administrator with drive and talent who ended up in the Rim spent 
most of their efforts getting out as quickly as possible

2) Initially the ZS didn't realise that there even was a war on. To the 
Vilani the 1st IW was simply a series of punitive raids against a 
nest of pirates (an analysis of the Terran's not too far from the truth 
at the time). If you think along the lines of British punitive raids 
against the tribes of the NW frontier (ie a very minor effort). This 
was indeed fortunate for the Terrans as even this minor effort nearly 
crushed them in the 1st War.

3) The ZS assumed that the Terran's technological growth would 
follow their own glacial pattern. They simply had no comprehension 
that the Terrans could match their techonology in just 33 years. 
The very concepts of "reverse engineering" and "synergetic 
exploitation" were totally alien to the Vilani (they simply could 
never understand that the Terrans would just copy their techology 
and then combine different elements in ways they have never even 
considered)

4) Likewise they measured their potential to expand in the terms of 
their own expansion. They did not forsee the Terran population 
explosion that was inevitable. Also, they could not know that the 
Terran's advanced biological sciences enabled them to support far 
greater population loads and exploit worlds that the Vilani had 
writen off as totally uninhabitable.
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:46:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:46:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F70SDx1kLwxTQTYkWSz00001108@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB78DC2.21937.66B1EA2@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002, at 15:31, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Yeah, I've got to think this over even more.  To my mind, minor race 
> rebellions aided and abetted by Terran infiltrators should be a big part of 
> the Interstellar Wars.  There would have been uprisings and sabotage a 
> sector or so "behind" the fighting front and the minor race allies providing 
> the lower-TL cannon fodder for the Alliance's offensives.

No, not really, at least not until right at the end (the Nth War). 
From the 1st to 8th War, the Terrans were simply facing the forces 
of a single ZS sector. If the ZS central fleet had been brought to 
bear at any stage in this period the Terrans would have been 
defeated (eventually, it wouldn't have been a cake walk though). 
But in the 9th War they faced the central fleet and anihilated it. 
This is the key factor in the collapse of the ZS.

Picture this, for thousands of years the ZS had stood as an 
immovable colossus, fixed and totally unchanging. It had the 
overwhelming faith of the vast majority of its citizens, sure things 
were not quite what they had once been and something was 
"wrong", but nobody could quite put their finger on it.

Sure their were some disaffected minor races and occassionally 
they did rebel, but they were always put in their place and if worst 
came to worst, there was still the Central Fleet. The Central Fleet 
was the very embodiment of the power and prestige of the ZS. 
Undefeated for thousands of year and with unquestioned power. As 
long as it existed any rebellion was doomed and the power of the 
ZS was undoubted.

In fact the empire was by this time a tettering house of cards. The 
total lack of change had lead to a slow build up of social tensions 
that were just waiting to break. All that was required was a crisis to 
spark the collapse. As long as nobody doubted the Empire it 
survived, but the moment serious doubt entered the equation, it just 
unravelled under the weight of thousands of years of social inertia.

And the spark was the Terran victory in the 9th War. Suddenly the 
most visible and tangible symbol of Vilani power was not just 
defeated by anihilated. The loyal citizens of the ZS went into a sort 
of state of shock and the oppressed minor races saw that the ZS 
could be defeated. This gives a sort of sudden explosion of the built 
up tensions. Sure the Empire still has the exact same resources 
as it had the day before the destruction of the Central Fleet, the 
infrastructure exists to build new ones and lots of other ships are 
still available. But the Empire has lost the faith of its people and it 
is doomed.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204121406.DXD05867@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"William Lane" asks
>What is F2F?

Face to Face
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Doug C.)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020412140824.40827.qmail@web13402.mail.yahoo.com>

I would be interested.  Could you end me ome more
info?
Doug
<<dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>>

--- "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
> Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance
> space 
> travel, etc.

______________________________________________________________________ 
Music, Movies, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:13:22 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

What do our lovely Ex Mil Travs think of this recent development?

Mikey

PS You just know that someone is going end up eating the moisture sachet at
one point. 

PPS Can someone please translate what 'acceptable' actually means in the
context of below. 

------------
April 12 2002

Military scientists in the United States have developed a new battlefield
weapon: the indestructible sandwich.

It can survive air drops and rough handling to stay fresh for up to three
years, even in tropical conditions.

Eventually, it is expected to follow freeze-dried coffee, dehydrated egg and
processed cheese from the battlefield on to supermarket shelves.

So far, only pepperoni and barbecued chicken varieties have been developed.
Soldiers who have tasted them say they are "acceptable".

Scientists are now working on indestructible pocket pizzas, cream-filled
bagels and peanut butter sandwiches.

The sandwiches are designed to stay fresh for up to three years at 26C, the
temperature of a warm summer's day, or six months at 38C. They are the
result of a long search by the US Army for rations that can be eaten on the
move.

The breakthrough was finding how to stop the filling from making the bread
soggy.

Scientists at the Soldier Systems Centre in Natick, Massachusetts, added
substances called humectants to pepperoni and chicken fillings.

Humectants not only prevent water from soaking into the bread but also limit
the amount of moisture available for bacterial growth, New Scientist
reports.

The sandwiches are then sealed in laminated plastic pouches that contain
sachets of chemicals to prevent the growth of yeast, mould and bacteria.

The standard American battlefield rations, called MRE, or Meal Ready to Eat,
already contain ingredients for making sandwiches. But they have to be
pasteurised and stored in separate pouches to prevent sogginess.

The Telegraph, London
-------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>; from jenry023@student.liu.se on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200
References: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost> <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost> <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020412081916.A31020@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> 
> Please...

Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their sex
lives.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.    --John Ciardi

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:24:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:24:10 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip three year old sandwich>

ObTrav:  Ever wondered what was in those Rations?  It's just 
a logistical footnote in most RPGs.  Yeah, I have 5 days of 
food.  But how hungry are you?  How well are they packaged?  
How long can people really subsist on them?  How much did you 
pay for them (characters will always go cheap on the rations -
- there's no incentive not to).

We should have three grades of rations, that come "ready to 
eat"

Grade C  Civilian, cheap.  5cr per meal.  Not guaranteed to 
stay together if you sit on the packages.  Gosh, were those 
scrambled eggs?  You won't be eating these after a few days, 
unless you're starving.

Grade B  Civilian, expensive or Military Surplus.  8 cr per 
meal.  OK to eat if you don't smell it or look at it.  Some 
of the meals, by chance, will be good.  Worth arguing over 
who gets them.  Or you can buy meals blind, open them up, and 
throw out the ones you don't like.  Morale will suffer if you 
have to eat these for more than a week.

Grade A Military current, Civilian Expedition Quality.  12 cr 
per meal.  Even comes with a warmer, wow.  You will be able 
to eat these for a few months, but you will recognize the 
same entrees again and again.


________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:56:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:56:33 2002
Subject: [TML] forced to unsubscribe for a bit
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412022408.01dde4e0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8DC437B.3989C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 11:26 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> My ISP is doing bad things with my mail server.  I seem to be able to send
> but not receive.  I haven't seen any new TML traffic for the last 24 hours
> or so.  To prevent the incoming-email equivalent of Three Mile Island, I am
> turning off my TML subscription for awhile.  I apologize to anyone who I
> was also on a thread that I was participating in.  Or maybe you're just as
> glad.  :->>
> 
> Back in a day or so.

I can always set you up with local email on my server.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
In-Reply-To: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:23:34AM -0400
References: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020412090107.A31185@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:23:34AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> We should have three grades of rations, that come "ready to 
> eat"

Shouldn't the grades go in reverse order, e.g. Military, cheap;
Civilian, cheap and finally Civilian, expensive?  IME civilian rations
tend to be _much_ tastier than MREs.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:02:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:02:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel
Message-ID: <004201c1e232$ea7b0ee0$519793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C1E23B.3984D900
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 1st. A sample will be =
appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while.=20



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C1E23B.3984D900
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is =
December 1st.=20
A sample will be appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C1E23B.3984D900--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <200204121508.DXF06733@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>Shouldn't the grades go in reverse order, e.g. Military, 
>cheap;

I've had civilian cheap - too nasty for words.  Don't ever 
make me eat those eggs again, or whatever that greenish 
yellow lumpy slime was.

I think I had three grades of civilian in there, so let's 
rearrange the list

Grade C   Civilian cheap/Ancient Military Surplus
Grade B2  Military Surplus
Grade B1  Civilian average
Grade A2  Current Military
Grade A1  Civilian Expedition Grade

The military food packs, and the Grade A1 come in durable 
packaging, and are shelf stable in extreme environments.
The military takes less preparation.
Grade A1 and A2 include heaters, condiments, etc.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3636@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E234.E92A6110
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

COOL!!  Can't wait to see it :)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: MJ Dougherty [mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:01 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel


 
Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 1st. A sample will be appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. 
 
 
 
Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses


------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E234.E92A6110
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">


<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=433291515-12042002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>COOL!!&nbsp; Can't wait to see it :)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=433291515-12042002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Jesse</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> MJ Dougherty 
  [mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 12, 2002 8:01 
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> tml@travellercentral.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TML] Traveller 
  novel<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 
  1st. A sample will be appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. 
  </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, Quiklink 
  Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E234.E92A6110--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018630776.524.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> "Matthew Bond" says
> <snip laser power>
> 
> I think I did a laser calculation on tml-guntech
> which has a 6.8kJ laser in 0.7 milliseconds (not 
> microseconds) that is more than capable of penetrating 30cm 
> of flesh.  The assumption was made that I would be vaporizing 
> a column of water, in 0.7 milliseconds, and that the target 
> spot would be 1mm x 1mm.  We came up with 1000 times the 
> power required to do the minimum vaporization and it came
> out to 6.8 kJ.

Hm...of course, against a target moving at more than 1m/s relative to your aim
point, you're going to have noticeable wandering during the beam period, making
the laser relatively inefficient at snapshots and the like.  In addition,
energy requirement to boil body temperature water is roughly 2.5 kJ/gram and
you're hitting 0.24 grams of material, for a vaporization energy of about 600
joules.

(Tim: I think you gave vaporization energy in calories, not joules).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412081916.A31020@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020412171320.46876.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start
> mentioning their sex
> lives.

Yeah, but there are rarely more than 10-15 off-topic
total posts on one of those threads before someone
(usually politely) asks them to either drop it or move
off the tml.  The gun topics have gone on for much
longer than 10-15 posts and lost topic either Monday
or Tuesday.  Suggestions:

1.  Move the discussion to private e-mail
2.  Move the discussion to tml-guntech
3.  Move the discussion to tml-chat
4.  Move the discussion to a gearhead list
5.  Bring it back to topic by relating to existing
combat rules or by designing new combat rules.
6.  Drop it altogether.

But please, don't keep it here without retaining game
relevance.  Discussions about which gun you prefer is
fine, but it is not on topic.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204121730.DXL01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>
>Hm...of course, against a target moving at more than 1m/s 
>relative to your aim point, you're going to have noticeable 
>wandering during the beam period, making
>the laser relatively inefficient at snapshots and the like.  
>In addition,
>energy requirement to boil body temperature water is roughly 
>2.5 kJ/gram and
>you're hitting 0.24 grams of material, for a vaporization 
>energy of about 600
>joules.
>

The calculation is over on tml-guntech. It is based on 
calculations done by the Air Force to determine required 
fluence levels to damage or vaporize a target. In their case, 
they were targeting mild steel.  I am targeting water. I 
first calculated the amount of material to be vaporized. I 
then assumed that it would take 1000 times that amount of 
energy, because of movement, armor, etc.  You may notice, 
however, that the reflectivity of mild unpolished steel is 
around 90% for a 1.3 nm wavelength beam.  The human body, 
OTOH, is around 10%.  So if you're not armored, my 1000 
factor is very, very conservative.  Even if we don't have an 
accurate model of penetration, I am fairly confident that 
raising the required energy by a factor of 1000 should get us 
some results other than a surface explosion.

Since we're using an overtone DF laser at 1.3nm, the 
atmosphere (according to published data) is not going to 
absorb any relevant percentage of the beam.

I also picked a very small spot size 1 mm x 1 mm.  If we make 
the spot size larger, say 1 cm x 1 cm, the power requirements 
really rise.

I have seen a continuous beam of similar spot size operating 
at a much lower power level.  It slices through 2 meters of 
layered fabric, cutting cloth for dresses.  The effect is 
nearly instantaneous.  Much faster than a saw or knife blade 
would ever be on a stack like that.  I was warned that if a 
human was ever inside the unit when it was operating, they 
would be cut instantly into the pattern.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <E16w5Hj-00044A-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

=20
> Face to Face

Where at?

Beth



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204121730.DXL01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018634628.8505.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> The calculation is over on tml-guntech.

Aha.  I found your error.  To quote:

>We want a wound channel approximately 1 mm x 1 mm, completely through the
theoretical 30 cm thick body that Tod uses for his calculations.

>The spot size will be 1mm x 1mm.

>This is 0.003 cc of water.

0.1 cm x 0.1cm x 30 cm = 0.3 cc.  You have a factor of 100 error.  Note that
your total energy requirement may still be credible, since you used a factor of
1,000 inefficiency.  I've seen pulsed laser calculations that would allow
blowthrough on as little as one kilojoule.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:10:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:10:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204121809.DXL07040@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Beth" asks
>> Face to Face
>
>Where at?
>
germantown, maryland
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204121814.DXL07610@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony says Aha
<snip>

ObTrav: I like a laser rifle from the aesthetic, CT 
perspective.  I have this view of "the spacers", people who 
come from the stars to have adventures on some remote 
planet.  And it isn't "practical" or "realistic".  I almost 
think that the whole plasma weapon thing is unnecessary.

Still, I like those ray guns in "Mars Attacks".  Give me one 
of those, thank you. Cool sound, fantastic effect.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:49:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:49:09 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <3CB72B6D.1443A6E7@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] The "gun" debate
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>> 
>> Please...
>
> Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> sex lives.

Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
subscribe via the digest. 

Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT 
political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to 
keep the list Traveller focused.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB72B6D.1443A6E7@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412150348.00b8d080@urbin.net>

At 01:46 PM 4/12/02 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> > From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> >> Please...
> > Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> > sex lives.
>Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
>subscribe via the digest.
>Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
>mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT
>political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to
>keep the list Traveller focused.

Hmmm...I haven't noticed the thread discussing the politics of ownership,
just the mechanics of the firearms and the wounds analysis.

It is starting to drift to the guntech list though.

Actually a good on topic thread on snub pistols has been going on there too.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Unpublished Material Question
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F94snwO5UGXtTG000025a5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEFPDKAA.tml@downport.com>

There wasn't much Traveller bottled up in GDW, and there do not seem to have
been a lot of things that were started and then dropped when they were close
to publication. I'm sure there were any number of ideas that were scrapped
because they were good enough :)

On the other hand, several of the licensees did die with good stuff in the
pipeline. Gamelords, Ltd. had several good items. one was Grand Survey,
which they sold to DGP. A couple of others were published recently by
Cargonaut Press. Paranoia Press had one or two items in the pipeline. DGP
had several when they went under, and at least one item, Lords of Thunder,
was put out as an article instead of a book.

For my money, some of the best stuff that has never seen wide circulation is
in some of the old fanzines; Between Worlds, Imperium Staple, Working
Passage, Parasec, Alien Star, Third Imperium, and many more. I'd like to see
some of those published on the web as Security Leak has been. The fanzines
were the WWW of their day. If anyone knows how to get in touch with
publishers of these old fanzines, let me know and I will work on web
publication.
_____________________________________

       http://www.downport.com
       The Traveller Web Portal
       webmaster@downport.com

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Graham Donald

I was wondering if anyone has a list of all the Traveller(MT, TNE) material
that GDW advertised, but did not release, also if anyone has any info as to
how far along the material was before it was canned?

It would make for interesting reading.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel
In-Reply-To: <004201c1e232$ea7b0ee0$519793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <004201c1e232$ea7b0ee0$519793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <200204121530190649.99C963A7@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 4/12/2002 at 4:00 PM MJ Dougherty wrote:

>Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 1st. A sample will be=
 appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. 
>

The Diaspora Phoenix sample has been posted and is available at:

http://www.TravellerRPG.com/TNE/DiasporaPhoenix.html

Hunter



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:57:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:57:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com>

>"Beth" asks
> >> Face to Face
> >
> >Where at?
> >
>germantown, maryland

This *is* the germantown near DC and not the one on the Eastern Shore, 
right?



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204122000.DXP05028@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Yes, Germantown, Maryland, that armpit of suburbia.  One of 
the largest concentrations of people in Maryland.

Home of the Department of Energy, etc.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:01:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:01:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Ack so close and yet so far.
ken
VA beach

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew MacLintock" <a_maclintock@hotmail.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Send more humans


> >"Beth" asks
> > >> Face to Face
> > >
> > >Where at?
> > >
> >germantown, maryland
> 
> This *is* the germantown near DC and not the one on the Eastern Shore, 
> right?
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Mac
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
> http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204121814.DXL07610@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018641727.2102.ajackson@ping>

Incidentally, where does the idea of 1.3nm X-rays penetrating atmosphere come
from?  I can't find any immediate references, and was under the general
impression that beyond some windows in the near UV the atmosphere basically
absorbs everything.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204122010.DXP06343@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>
>Incidentally, where does the idea of 1.3nm X-rays 
>penetrating atmosphere come from?  I can't find any 
>immediate references, and was under the general
>impression that beyond some windows in the near UV the 
>atmosphere basically absorbs everything.
>_______________________________________________

My mistake - it's 1.3 microns.  The document is Laser Options 
For National Missile Defense, an Air Force document.  
Apparently, 1.3 microns will allow a space based laser to 
target ground targets - there are more uses for the SBL than 
just shooting missiles.  It will be an effective anti-
aircraft weapon, and other documents indicate it will be 
useful at targeting individuals.

With the fluence they plan on using, and the beam time (4 
seconds), it looks like they could literally smoke you down 
to the bones with something like that.

They also indicate in related documents that the same mirror 
that would be used to strike ground targets would be able to 
spot and aim.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <20020412.131217.-193605.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:08:54 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> Grade C   Civilian cheap/Ancient Military Surplus
> Grade B2  Military Surplus
> Grade B1  Civilian average
> Grade A2  Current Military
> Grade A1  Civilian Expedition Grade

Ah the lucky service men/women of today are blessed with grade A food,
HA!

Back in 1972 - 1975 all I ever saw, ate, and enjoyed, HA, were C Rations
packed in 1953!!!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The great gun discussion
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020412135143.009f0220@mail.attbi.com>

	Ok.  I have collected firearms all my life, hunted all my life, reloaded 
ammo all my life.  Firearms are one of main hobbies, and so is 
Traveller.  The intersection of the two is interesting and appropriate, 
accassionally.  But, seriously, guys, {and you know who you are) not 
everone is interested in our firearms hobby, or is even allowed to have a 
firearms hobby.  Or allowed to or want to hunt.  I would love to sit down 
and bullshit for hours about guns, hunting, etc, but let's stop inflicting 
this subject on innocent bystanders.
	I hope I haven't offended anyone, because I really like everyone on this 
list, but if I have please feel free to flame me at d.gyles@attbi.net.
	Ok, back to lurking, now.
	P.S. You hunt with guns!! What wimps!! Real men use a bow!!!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
In-Reply-To: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB7E982.25362.4543EE@localhost>

On 12 Apr 2002 at 10:23, John T. Kwon wrote:

> <snip three year old sandwich>
> 
> ObTrav:  Ever wondered what was in those Rations?  It's just 
> a logistical footnote in most RPGs.  Yeah, I have 5 days of 
> food.  But how hungry are you?  How well are they packaged?  
> How long can people really subsist on them?  How much did you 
> pay for them (characters will always go cheap on the rations -
> - there's no incentive not to).

Not in my games they don't. Or not often, and very seldom after the 
ones that do have been given descriptions of what it's like to eat 
jellied eels, pickled goose eggs and candied locusts (and I mean the 
insects, not the fruit). My preference is to time this so that the 
players are eating when the description of their character's meal is 
given. Thyis doesn't work on some people, as they've eaten this sort of 
thing or 'worse', but they're seldom the ones being cheap, strangely 
enough.
 
> Grade B  Civilian, expensive or Military Surplus.  8 cr per 
> meal.  OK to eat if you don't smell it or look at it.  Some 
> of the meals, by chance, will be good.  Worth arguing over 
> who gets them.  Or you can buy meals blind, open them up, and 
> throw out the ones you don't like.  Morale will suffer if you 
> have to eat these for more than a week.

Sounds like a fussy eater to me. This looks like a fairly good 
description of our rations and I can't say that there was ever a 
significant drop in morale over a 2 week exercise period. OTOH the 
boost in morale after even only a couple of days if a fresh hot meal is 
shipped/trucked/flown in is amazing.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412081916.A31020@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204122324460.17035-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> > Please...
> 
> Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their sex
> lives.

Well, yes, but this still is _Traveller_ mailing list. Sex lives also a
no-no, please. 

The point of the list kind of gets lost, if I have to delete 80% of the
posts as off-topic. B-/

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a
 starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411151634.0209ac08@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:52 PM 4/10/2002, Texas Redshift wrote:
>Starship Insurance - Theft and Casualty - Claims

Good post.  A couple of points to think about: one of them being the 
general piracy scenario (but that's not one I want to go into now).  The 
other being the definition of when the ship becomes salvage (versus the 
recovery of stolen property).  Hopefully someone with better knowledge of 
maritime law can chime in here, but the rule of thumb that I've used IMTU 
goes as follows:

If the ship was stolen, and later recovered in any sort of operable 
condition, it's stolen property and not salvage, and legally belongs to 
whomever is the owner.  If someone assists in recovering the ship for the 
owners, there is generally some type of reward involved; most larger ship 
owners and insurers make sure that their reward policies are well-known, 
since this helps in recovering stolen ships.

A stolen ship should become salvage only after a reasonably long period of 
time (given the lifetimes of Traveller starships).  A stolen ship may also 
become eligible for salvage if the owner formally files papers to abandon 
the ship.  Companies (particularly insurers) may do this if it has tax 
advantages.  An insurance company with a large portfolio of stolen ships 
may choose to take the write-off and tax benefit of abandonment rather than 
hold the ships until they become salvage automatically.

The company would have to make a decision about the chance of recovering 
the ship (and it's expected value if recovered) versus the value of the tax 
shelter in writing the ship off.  This could be a useful adventure hook; 
freelance salvage companies probably scan the list of abandoned ships as 
they are published, because those ships are now "fair game" and any 
proceeds no longer have to be shared with the insurance company.  The list 
is probably just that - but a salvage company with good research 
connections may occasionally be able to recover such a ship where the owner 
could or would not.

If the ship was abandoned due to any sort of disaster or accident which 
made it inoperable, uninhabitable and/or a hazard to navigation, then it 
becomes salvage.  If it is ever recovered (for parts or to be repaired and 
returned to service) it would become (after a bit if paperwork) the legal 
property of whomever salvaged it.

This leads to some interesting adventure hooks: if at all possible without 
undue hazard to life, an agent of the ship owner (generally the 
owner-aboard, captain, or crew) or the insurer (generally an agent or 
freelancer hired for the purpose) must remain aboard a damaged ship so that 
it does not become salvage.  This could involve the PCs in many ways - for 
example, a ship owner or insurance company could hire them to spend some 
time aboard a damaged and otherwise abandoned ship.  They'd start out in 
vacc suits, and probably would want to seal and re-pressurize some 
compartment so they would have a place to un-suit during their stay.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:04:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:04:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204122010.DXP06343@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018645406.4851.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> My mistake - it's 1.3 microns.

Ok, that's more familiar, that's actually near IR.

Oh, if you want a really insane tech option (which real people are vaguely
considering), Hf-178m2 lasers make a neat gamma ray laser option which people
are really studying.  Some benefits:

2.6 MeV photons don't have remotely interesting diffraction problems at normal
combat ranges.  a 1mm lens, for a 1mm beam, retains basically full focal
ability out to 100 km.

Gamma rays, due to high penetration (90% reduction in about an inch of steel)
can efficiently deposit energy well below the normal surface layers, thus
significantly improving the ability to fire through both atmosphere and armor. 
A 10 kilojoule beam should be plenty to kill through quite a bit of armor.

Hf-178m2 stores a lot of energy -- on the order of a gigajoule per gram -- thus
solving a lot of the energy storage problems.  It would need some power input
to trigger lasing, but probably considerably less than the output.

Based on how x-ray lenses are designed (low incidence angle deflection), a
gamma ray lens would probably be a thin metal-walled tube, thus actually
resembling a gun, rather than resembling a flashlight.

Disadvantages: Hf-178m2 is radioactive, half-life 31 years.  Assuming you need
a stored energy of 10 megajoules, carrying an unshielded power source next to
your skin for a month would expose you to a mean radiation dose of about 10,000
rads.  Using real materials, I'd want to wrap it in around 2 cm of iridium,
which would add more than a kilogram to the weight of the weapon.  With
Traveller materials, just wrap it in bonded superdense (in fact, the barrel is
probably bonded SD as well); assuming bonded SD is 14x as good radiation
shielding as steel, half a centimeter is enough shielding.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204122116.DXS00114@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
<snip radioactive death>

ObTrav:  I was wondering how many rads someone has to take to 
be a "prompt" casualty (and probably a fatality, pretty 
soon).  Yes, there are some fairly generic rules (see Gurps: 
Space or Ultra-Tech I'm not sure).  I'd be interested in some 
house rules, because radioactivity has got to occur around 
fusion powerplants, in space, etc.  It's a Traveller kind of 
thing.

I keep hearing around 20,000 rads, but I've also heard that 
someone cooked like that can linger for a day or so.  There 
were some accidents with the Therac-25 machine where people 
were accidentally given the maximum output of the machine 
because of software errors.  Some of the doses were in that 
range.

Also, it's not clear how they calculate dosage.  In the 
accident for the Therac, they describe radiation through a 
very small cross-section of the body, but also describe a 
calculated "whole-body" dose.

If shielding worked that well per your gadget, then it would 
be possible to build a small short range weapon that 
consisted of shielding, a source that could produce a 20,000 
rad/sec emission, and a shutter.

I don't think that there's a handwave for "my body is dead 
and I don't know it yet".
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204122116.DXS00114@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018646710.9067.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> Anthony Jackson says
> <snip radioactive death>
> 
> ObTrav:  I was wondering how many rads someone has to take to 
> be a "prompt" casualty (and probably a fatality, pretty 
> soon).  Yes, there are some fairly generic rules (see Gurps: 
> Space or Ultra-Tech I'm not sure).  I'd be interested in some 
> house rules, because radioactivity has got to occur around 
> fusion powerplants, in space, etc.  It's a Traveller kind of 
> thing.

Well, in the case of the weapon described, it wouldn't be a radiation kill,
it's just going to vaporize all the material in a 1mm channel through the body,
producing rather bullet-like effects.

The effects of high doses of radiation on humans are not well studied due to a
lack of examples, but 20,000 rads is reasonable for immediate incapacitation.

> If shielding worked that well per your gadget, then it would 
> be possible to build a small short range weapon that 
> consisted of shielding, a source that could produce a 20,000 
> rad/sec emission, and a shutter.

Well, radiation sprayers are the type of weapon that tends to get banned by
international convention, but as a short range weapon (100 meters or less)
radiation weapons are rather simple.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <200204122133.DXT01374@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson talks about radioactivity
<snip>

I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone 
can help out and pony up their house rules).

Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-
T) powerplant's energy output will be in the form of 
neutrons.  

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
References: <ML-2.3.1018646710.9067.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CB75306.59A09CC@premier.net>


Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> John T. Kwon writes:
> > Anthony Jackson says
> > <snip radioactive death>
> >
> > ObTrav:  I was wondering how many rads someone has to take to
> > be a "prompt" casualty (and probably a fatality, pretty
> > soon).  Yes, there are some fairly generic rules (see Gurps:
> > Space or Ultra-Tech I'm not sure).  I'd be interested in some
> > house rules, because radioactivity has got to occur around
> > fusion powerplants, in space, etc.  It's a Traveller kind of
> > thing.
> 
> Well, in the case of the weapon described, it wouldn't be a radiation kill,
> it's just going to vaporize all the material in a 1mm channel through the body,
> producing rather bullet-like effects.
> 
> The effects of high doses of radiation on humans are not well studied due to a
> lack of examples, but 20,000 rads is reasonable for immediate incapacitation.

According to FM 25-51, Battalion Task Force Nuclear Training, a dose of
8,000-18,000 rad is projected to cause the hapless victim to "become
completely and permanently incapacitated for performing physical tasks
within 5 minutes."  For doses over 18,000 rad, replace the word
"physical" with "any." 

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <200204122133.DXT01374@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018648147.2754.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone 
> can help out and pony up their house rules).
> 
> Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-
> T) powerplant's energy output will be in the form of 
> neutrons.  

Which is an excellent reason to avoid using D-T reactors, if anything else can
be made to work.  D-He3 can be optimized to only a few percent neutrons (caused
by incidental D-D reactions in the fuel).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 16:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 12 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fort Knox-Radcliff - Looking for Players
Message-ID: <184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a@aol.com>

--part1_184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I'm a long time traveller fan that has settled in the Radcliff/Fort Knox 
area. Looking for any fellow Traveller Players. I am experienced with 
Classic, MegaTraveller, T4, and GURPS versions of our favorite game. Contact 
me if your in the Fort Knox area. 

--part1_184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>I'm a long time traveller fan that has settled in the Radcliff/Fort Knox area. Looking for any fellow Traveller Players. I am experienced with Classic, MegaTraveller, T4, and GURPS versions of our favorite game. Contact me if your in the Fort Knox area. </FONT></HTML>

--part1_184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] eine Frage fur die deutschsprechenden Leute des TMLs
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

I need help translating a little bit of military radio talk from English or
German.  If you would like to help, please email me off list.

Vielen Dank,

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEHACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>

[Excellent comparison of 1600-1900 China and ca. 2400 Ziru Sirka deleted.]

>
>     That's part of my take on the whole problem.  The Terran Confederation
>victory over the Ziru Sirka is more along the lines of Cortez versus the
>Aztecs; i.e lots of native allies, and most decidely not a case of "Terra
>Uber Alles."

Mr. Whipsnade*:

You and Mr. Laning and I are in general agreement on this point.  Solomani,
whether Imperial or Confederate, suppress the truth of Vegan, Geonee,
Azhanti, what-have-you revolts that finally toppled the Ziru Sirka.

--Glenn

*An easy typographical error to make is Whipsnake, which is something else
again, I suppose.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8dd1a45b944@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:02 PM +1200 4/11/02, Frank Pitt wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote :
>
>>  But we are talking about security measure that are
>>  intrusive enough that the are a hassle to the day
>>  to day operation of a ship.
>
>Yes.
>
>Just as being searched for screwdrivers and penknives is
>currently a hassle in the day to day operation of an airline.
>
>>  Some people are going to know about them.
>
>Everyone will be _told_ about them. They won't be secret.

And if you can make that kind of link (we are preventing something 
that has been used to cause great loss of life), then you have a 
justification for the security measures.  But invoking intrusive 
insurance companies alone won't do it.

>
>>  Unless they are important  enough to make a _significant_
>change in costs,
>>  another company will be able to draw at least some customers
>away buy not
>>  having such intrusive requirements.
>
>The requirements are set by the SPA and the local civilian
>government, not the insurance company, as I already said :

It doesn't matter who is setting the requirements.  One still has to 
show they are justified economically.  (Though, in fact, the Imperium 
is very hands off and I _don't_ see the requirement comming here.  I 
_would_ be the insurance company, if it was justified).

>
>>  >The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
>>  >required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
>>  >may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
>>  >starport will do it (for important safety and
>>  >financial reasons,would you want an unwarranted vehicle
>>  >approaching an extremely expensve space station?), there won't
>>  >be any real choice except for the captains to take the risk
>>  >of not doing it and not go to the better starports
>>
>>  The presumption is that every insurance company will have such
>>  requirements.
>
>No, the presumption is that no insurance company will accept
>liability for an illegal ship.
>
>Because of that, if the ship owners wish to be able to recover
>the cost of their starship in the event of an accident, they will
>attempt to ensure their ship is legal at all times.

Well, the body doing the requirement, as I said above, doesn't change 
the issue of whether the requirement is needed.

>Think about the difference in damage potential between a 747 and
>a subsidized merchant.
>Then think about the greater effect that damage will have on an
>orbital starport.
>
>Security on a starship will be required to be tight to prevent
>"passengers" from taking control of the starship and flying it
>into the starport, or other targets of oppurtunity.

And the question is whether
a) Is this likely (just because some sort of terrorist act is 
possible doesn't mean that someone is trying to do it.  We didn't 
protect against the 9/11 incident because, in past, such an act 
simply wasn't likely enough.  The failure was to recognize that rise 
of those willing and able to do such a thing).  There are still 
things out there were someone could cause loss of life that we don't 
protect against.
b) What are the measures necessary to achieve this security.

Now I wasn't following the thread so I don't know what has been 
discussed on either count.  I just wanted to point out that you can't 
assume that an insurance company, or other agency, would mandate any 
security measure you can think of regardless of the need.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>

>In fact, hunters and cops seem to take "stopping power" much more seriously
than the military.

I wouldn't say "more seriously;" it's just that they have different
objectives.  The military is happy to wound an enemy soldier and take him
plus one or more other combatants out of the fight as they try to save the
one who got hit.  Hunters want to bring the animal down right away so they
don't have to chase it.  Police are often trying to protect themselves and
innocent people, so once they decide to shoot, they don't want the suspect
to get back up, or not fall at all.

Interestingly, the Colt .45 Model 1911 was designed to give American
soldiers enough stopping power to knock down an oncoming Philippino
guerilla.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
Message-ID: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1E287.5BD606E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term =
"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?

The origin is bugging me....

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1E287.5BD606E0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can anyone suggest where they first saw =
reference=20
to the Term "Ortillery" for orbital artillery?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The origin is bugging=20
me....</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1E287.5BD606E0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com> <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3CB77AE9.17CE776@mindspring.com>

Joseph Elric Smith wrote:

> Ack so close and yet so far.
> ken
> VA beach

Pungo?



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com> <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net> <3CB77AE9.17CE776@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <010301c1e282$a2382960$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Virginia Beach VA
Ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Send more humans


> Joseph Elric Smith wrote:
> 
> > Ack so close and yet so far.
> > ken
> > VA beach
> 
> Pungo?
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
>                                -Steve Martin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
References: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CB77CAC.A913834@mindspring.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> "Ortillery" for orbital artillery? The origin is bugging me....

Right here on the TML a few months back. I guess that doesn't help much.

Obtrav: Things like this probably happen with Xmail all the time.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 19:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 12 18:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com> <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net> <3CB77AE9.17CE776@mindspring.com> <010301c1e282$a2382960$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3CB781F2.33EEA6C8@mindspring.com>

Joseph Elric Smith wrote:

> Virginia Beach VA
> Ken
>
> Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [TML] Send more humans
>
> > Joseph Elric Smith wrote:
> >
> > > Ack so close and yet so far.
> > > ken
> > > VA beach
> >
> > Pungo?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> > www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> > I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
> >                                -Steve Martin
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Yes, I'm in Pungo borough. You?


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 19:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri Apr 12 18:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <3cb77b2c.15566185@post.demon.co.uk>

Richard Huxton <red@archonet.com> writes:

>I had a sudden vision of a jump-capable planet working its way around =
the=20
>galaxy sucking gas giants dry between jumps.

Using HG2, rather than Book 2.  Afraid I missed the price target
slightly, but cost overruns are inevitable on a project of this scope.
;-)

Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =20

MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
78,886,000,000,000,000,000 tons
Crew=3D394,428,000,000,000,000
TL=3D13

Passengers=3D0 Low=3D0 Cargo=3D1,498,825,000,000,000,000 tons
=46uel=3D34,710,000,000,000,000,000 EP=3D(lots) Agility=3D0 Marines=3D0

I didn't fit armament, but there's lots of spare cargo space to play
with.  This ship can also be supplied with a fuel shuttle which,
coincidentally enough, looks rather like a moon....

The crew needed for the ship is a little steep, since it needs about
65 million times the population of present-day Terra.  Also, my
geometry is extremely rusty, but I'm right in thinking that 4/3 pi r^3
is the formula for volume of a sphere, aren't I?  (And that Earth's
radius is 6,412,000m).

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018630776.524.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <ML-2.3.1018630776.524.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020413123016.B12650@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> (Tim: I think you gave vaporization energy in calories, not joules).

Ick!  No, I just mistyped 2.3e5 instead of 2.3e6 joules per kilogram
for latent heat of vaporization :/ Of course, that means that the
original 6.8kJ calculation was even further off.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chem Det Missiles
References: <20020410050411.0205627AA5@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB798C4.4E90DEB3@earthlink.net>

Question for the list:

Has anyone developed any design rules for chem-det missiles
in a rulesset other than GURPS?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018641727.2102.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204121814.DXL07610@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <ML-2.3.1018641727.2102.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020413123527.C12650@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Incidentally, where does the idea of 1.3nm X-rays penetrating
> atmosphere come from?

I expect it's a typo for 1.3 um.  Of course, you need handwave
focussing to get a 1mm spot size with such a wavelength in a
pistol-sized weapon past 20 metres or so, but that's not problem for
Traveller.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB75306.59A09CC@premier.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1018646710.9067.ajackson@ping> <3CB75306.59A09CC@premier.net>
Message-ID: <20020413124722.D12650@freeman.little-possums.net>

John Groth wrote:
> According to FM 25-51, Battalion Task Force Nuclear Training, a dose
> of 8,000-18,000 rad is projected to cause the hapless victim to
> "become completely and permanently incapacitated for performing
> physical tasks within 5 minutes."

Yep.  Good if you want to make sure someone dies rather soon, but not
as good if they're actively shooting at you *right now*.

Note: For gamma rays, a whole-body dose of 18000 rads works out to an
absorbed energy of about 15 kJ.  I reckon absorbing 15 kJ of laser or
kinetic energy would "completely and permanently incapacitate" the
victim pretty quickly too.

A nuclear damper in the area is probably going to nullify a radiation
weapon based on decay of radioactive isotopes.  Not that I'm saying
that's the only way to build a radiation weapon, of course, but
something to be aware of.  If set to accelerate decay, it might even
melt down the weapon with disastrous consequences to the wielder.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 21:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Doug C.)
Date: Fri Apr 12 20:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
References: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <3CB77CAC.A913834@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB7A9FD.3BD6AF65@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hmmm,
Seems to me there is a ref in 'The Spinward Marches Campaign'
Douglas

alan spik wrote:

> MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> > Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> > "Ortillery" for orbital artillery? The origin is bugging me....
>
> Right here on the TML a few months back. I guess that doesn't help much.
>
> Obtrav: Things like this probably happen with Xmail all the time.
>
> --
> Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
>                                -Steve Martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 21:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 20:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
Message-ID: <200204130346.DYF01090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ortillery?

I saw it in Dirtside, a game to go with Full Thrust.

But I may have seen it in an SF novel before.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 22:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Fri Apr 12 21:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413085805.02756ec8@pop3.norton.antivirus>

At 01:05 AM 13/04/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term "Ortillery" 
>for orbital artillery?
>
>The origin is bugging me....

First I saw of it was in 'GT-Ground Forces'.
Hated it at first, but the term has grown on me.

Andrei Nikulinsky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 22:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Fri Apr 12 21:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001201c1e2a4$8e34e670$2f7de40c@loki>

Maray Rijam to some and Arkers Ayerin to others:

has been off the list for a few days and close to a grand in messages
but he already sees some good stuff. He'll have Mark Ayers respond to
the best of 'em as soon as he gets caught up. Now if the damn exorcist
could get Mosiac Tapestry and Eslaan Marakyr and Ark Ramsey and James
Richard Walker III and Farquhar McPhar and a few more alter egoes to
share in the duties. Hmmm?

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 23:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 12 22:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <F209IlOAPE3EzbwJp8k00003548@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone
can help out and pony up their house rules)."

     "Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-T) 
powerplant's energy output will be in the form of neutrons."


Mr. Kwon,

     This one's sort in my baliwick, the shielding bits that is.  I won't 
even attempt to guess-timate the energy range fusion-produced neutrons will 
have, but I'll assume (gulp) they won't be too far off from fission 
generated ones.
     The short story is that you'll need some heavy shielding, but not a bad 
as the equivalent in gamma radiation will require.  The shielding you choose 
should have LOTS of hydrogen in it as hydrogen atoms will slow, reflect, and 
eventually stop neutrons better than anything else.
     One nasty side effect of neutron radiation will be the eventual 
deterioration of the materials your power plant is made of.(The early 
embrittlement of fission reactor vessels due to neutron bombardment is the 
reason some plants in the US have been decommisioned ahead of schedule.)  
Annual maintenance might involve detection and replacement of components 
effected by neutron exposure.
     GURPS Compedium II has servicable rad rules.  IIRC, there are some MT 
rules in a DGP Digest issue that deal with exposure rather exhaustively.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 23:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri Apr 12 22:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
In-Reply-To: <3CB7A9FD.3BD6AF65@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEEOEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

> MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> > Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> > "Ortillery" for orbital artillery? The origin is bugging me....
>
> Right here on the TML a few months back. I guess that doesn't help much.
>
> Obtrav: Things like this probably happen with Xmail all the time.
-----------
There was a description in the JTAS Issue number 9 page 21 This is the issue
which first described the organisation of the Duke of Reginas Huscarles. The
unit had  an attached ortillery squadron consisting of 3 system defence
boats. The unit at this time also had a squadron of 10 50dt single place
fighters and 2 50dt dual place fighters in the units flight HQ

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 23:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 22:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <200204130523.DYJ00139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" says
>
>     The short story is that you'll need some heavy 
>shielding, but not a bad as the equivalent in gamma 
>radiation will require.  The shielding you choose 
>should have LOTS of hydrogen in it as hydrogen atoms will 
>slow, reflect, and eventually stop neutrons better than 
>anything else.

Some of the neutrons need to be captured and converted to 
thermal energy - probably the liquid lithium blanket we 
always hear about.  After that, polyethylene, and lots of it.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 00:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (nellkyn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 23:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
References: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <006001c1e2b7$f0047100$81e868d5@k5k9u6>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1E2C0.20DF7C40
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

First edition of the Dirtside wargames rules by Ground Zero Games. Sorry =
I don't know what year they were published but it was prior to 1989, if =
my memory serves me correctly. Try contacting GZG directly as Jon =
Tuffley may be able to let you know where he first heard the term. =
Failing that, the GZG Mailing list may be able to help.

Off to TravCon in 15 minutes. See you there if you're coming.

Neil
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: MJ Dougherty=20
  To: tml@travellercentral.com=20
  Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 1:05 AM
  Subject: [TML] Ortillery


  Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term =
"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
  =20
  The origin is bugging me....

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1E2C0.20DF7C40
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>First edition of the Dirtside wargames =
rules by=20
Ground Zero Games. Sorry I don't know what year they were published but =
it was=20
prior to 1989, if my memory serves me correctly. Try contacting GZG =
directly as=20
Jon Tuffley may be able to let you know where he first heard the term. =
Failing=20
that, the GZG Mailing list may be able to help.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Off to TravCon in 15 minutes. See you =
there if=20
you're coming.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Neil</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk" =
title=3Dmartinjd@globalnet.co.uk>MJ=20
  Dougherty</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:tml@travellercentral.com"=20
  title=3Dtml@travellercentral.com>tml@travellercentral.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, April 13, 2002 =
1:05=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [TML] Ortillery</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can anyone suggest where they first =
saw reference=20
  to the Term "Ortillery" for orbital artillery?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The origin is bugging=20
me....</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1E2C0.20DF7C40--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 01:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Sat Apr 13 00:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [Request] Black War Ships, statistics/history
Message-ID: <LAW2-F143KWtXgzyKyF00003ac6@hotmail.com>

Hi,

I'm interested in if possible/legal obtaining a copy of the article in 
Challenge 60, which covered the history/stats of the "Black War" ships 
produced in the lead up to the collapse. Either a .txt or .pdf file is 
acceptable.

Graham

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 02:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 01:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204110412.g3B4CU601389@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20412.221249.4a6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard writes:
>> The problem is, different things depend on *different* ratios. 
>> 
>> Some depend on things like the charge to mass ratio of particles.
>> Others depend on things like the ratios of the *squares* of of things.
>> And some are things like square roots. Or weirder ratios. 
>> 
>> You *can't* make them all match. 
>
> Even if all four fundamental forces & inertia (i.e. apparent
> mass) drop simultaneously by the same factor? Wouldn't then
> the ratios between these values (and those other values based
> on them) all stay the same? -Jim

As an example, a lot of things depend on the fine structure constant.
Which contains things like the *square* of the charge of the electron.

Which means that if you halve the value of the charge, the value of the
fine structure constant drops to one-quarter.

So the ratios of stuff that depend on the value of things drops to 1/2,
but stuff that depends on the *square* of the values drops to 1/4.
Making one set of properties *twice* as big relative to the other.

There are other things that depend on stuff like the 3/2 power of
various forces...

So, no, you can't adjust the properties at all without making
*something* different. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 02:06:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 01:06:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20412.223302.9s3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Apart from that, your goal is to have the behaviour of atoms (and more
>> complex systems) behave in the same way as before inertial
>> suppression, correct?  This requires more than just changing the
>> strength of forces.
>
> The goal was to theoretically examine inertial suppression as a
> means for making high accelleration (say anywhere from 50g to 1000g)
> doable for a STL-based RPG, so that we'd be able to have speedy
> interstellar travel from a subjective viewpoint (a few days to a few
> weeks from the viewpoint of the crew, although it would be years
> or even decades from the viewpoint of those not taking the trip).
>
> In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
> both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
> physics as we know it, and both of you know a lot more about
> physics than I do, so it seems that I'm going to have to relent
> and give up on this idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes
> infeasible, and we're left with FTL (which has already been done
> to death). Ah well... -Jim

The thing is, you are stuck on the idea of inertial suppression. It's
possible to compensate for acceleration forces, *without* messing with
inertia.

If you can generate artificial gravity of some sort, then you can
neutralize acceleration up to the point where the acceleration equals
the max strength of the artifical gravity. 

Likewise, if your drive uses forces similar to gravity, in that they
act evenly on all particles composing the ship, there won't be any
*apparent* acceleration. 

What causes trouble with acceleration is the fact that it's being
transmitted to the contents of the ship by the structure of the ship
(ie drive pushes on drive mounts, drive mounts push on load-bearing
framework & hull, frame and hull push on decks, decks push on crew). 

So if the drive generates a *field* that affects all of the ship
equally, then each atom (actually each subatomic particle) is pushed
*directly*. 

So the effect is that you are in free fall. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 02:06:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 01:06:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20412.224526.0W9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
>> the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
>> a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
>> strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
>> hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
>> when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
>> decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
>> just one simple example.
>> 
>> Hence inertial suppression requires more than just changing the
>> strength of forces.  If you want the atoms to behave the same way, you
>> need to alter fundamental constants as well.
>  
> Why does h influence the size of the atom?

Because Planck's constant is the basis of all quantum effects. It's how
"grainy" the universe is. Change it and you change the size of the
"orbits" of the electrons. 

> Also, how do we know that h is a fundamental constant and not
> dependant on the factors we might be changing (i.e. fundamental
> forces) with the intertial suppression scheme?

We don't. But so far all attempts to come up with theories (hypotheses,
if you want to be picky) that will explain experimental data and
observations we already have but have h be a "side effect" of something
else.

Or to put it another way, h is a *measurement* of how energy & time
relate or position and momentum relate.

> Are you saying that by reducing the mass, the orbitals of the electrons
> are going to be larger?

Sort of. The compton wavelength of the electron is h/(me*c) where h is
Planck's constant, me is the mass of the electron, and c is the speed
of light.

Lower the mass of the electron and the wavelength gets longer. Which
means the electron is more smeared out. Since the "orbitals" are just a
simpler way of looking at the way the wavelength of the electron
achieves a "resonance" at given distances (ie you could think of the
orbitals as being the distances where the "orbit" is one, two, three,
etc wavelengths long) changing the wavelength changes the size of the
orbit...

> I'm not completely sure how plank's constant enters into this.

See the above. Remember, particles also act like waves. Planck's
constant determines how "big" the waves are.

> If you say you are reducing the effect of an electronic charge by the
> same percentage that you are reducing the mass, all should be good,
> even if that means plank's constant has changed, which, I admit, I
> was hoping to avoid... but when you mentioned that you created a
> set of mechanics which worked perfectly well w/ all the constants
> changing... hmm.

Yes, but the thing is, the set of changes essentially amount to
changing the scale of the universe. Whoopee. No one *inside* would be
able to tell the difference.

> I'm thinking that perhaps these constants come out of evaluating
> quantities such as the size of an atom.... in other words, perhaps
> ZPF taming (inertial suppression & fundamental force suppression)
> would end up modifying these so-called constants. But I don't know
> enough about plank's to really make that assessment. Basically, what
> I'm driving at here, is if you dropped the values of the fundamental
> forces, would planck's constant also change as a result of that? If
> so, then we've got a bit of a squirrely situation which might just
> work mathematically, but which would make your average physics
> doctorate have a cow.

There actually *are* people who've tried to work out what the universe
would be like if the values of various fundamental constants were
different. And it turns out that anything other than truly miniscule
changes will result in physics such that *matter* won't exist. 

As I recall, one of the common results is that no atoms other than
"protium" (H1) could exist. All because of interactions between the
different constants.

> Well, I'm sorta torn between this idea and Alcubierre's FTL (space
> warping) idea, but we've discussed that one a few months ago, and
> if I remember correctly, you made the contention that it leads to
> wormholes and time travel, which we really don't want to deal with.
> That's (a small) part of the reason I was hoping to use this inertial
> suppression idea instead, but if it can't be explained in a way that
> a physics major would say... "hmm... interesting... and I can't really
> disprove it either... nor does it lead to ridiculous & exploitable
> technologies" then maybe it shouldn't be used. I'm shooting for
> something with a hard-SF feel. If we wanted soft-SF, we'd use
> hyperspace and quasispace from starcon2.

Ok, FTL *must* lead to time-travel. Period. No way out.

Because of the way time and space are related, *any* pair of events A &
B such that the "interval" (the 4d space-time equivalent of distance in
3d space) between them is "FTL" (ie light couldn't get from the
location of A to the location of B in the time between the two events)
*is* time travel in at least one frame of reference.

That is, for observers moving at some speed relative to A & B, B will
occur before A. 

And no, this is *not* a mere matter of observatiuon. *Correcting* for the
relative motion, B happens first.

It's a matter of geometry. Completely unavoidable. Things like going
thru another universe don't help, because it doesn't matter *how* you
get from A to b faster than light, just that you *did*. 

So you just have to live with it. 

In Traveller, it's moderately difficult to travel into the past.
Because the jump drive is "slow" enough that you'd have to get ships
moving at a fair fraction of lightspeed to get them into the past.

Also, just because time travel is possible doesn't mean it is *useful*.

Assuming global casuality is preserved (ie effects always have causes,
even if some observers see them in reverse order) but local causality
isn't (ie some observers see effects before causes), then you can
travel in time, but you can't *change* anything. 

So if you went back to last week to try to stop yourself from doing
something, *something* would happen. You might break your leg, or get
arrested for jaywalking or something. 

But if you went to last week somewhere *else*, you'd have some
freedom, because you wouldn't *know* what the past was *there*. 

Check out Dr. Robert Forward's novel Timemaster for a wormhole based
FTL drive that allows time travel and complies with this sort of
restrictions.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 03:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 02:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <B8DD422F.3A0F2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all.

I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
plug it in and get the cost in Credits.

See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to

http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 05:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Apr 13 04:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cb77b2c.15566185@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
 <3cb77b2c.15566185@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020413131941.21300d11.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> The crew needed for the ship is a little steep, since it needs about
> 65 million times the population of present-day Terra.

Not really.

Consider that the entire volume is used, compared to just the surface.

You didn't fit a 6G manuever drive. I'm dissappointed  :-)

I really, really have to do some FF&S calculations. I think that the
staterooms should fit well into the volume, even leaving space for other
machinery.

On a serious note: Really large ships need some kind of internal rapid
transit system. Has anyone played around with numbers for this? Just
designing tunnels of a certain diameter and making a subway system should
work fine.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 05:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Sat Apr 13 04:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] Website update - Links page refreshed
Message-ID: <8A25820D-4ED0-11D6-8747-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support
http://www.bits.org.uk/

Another website update - thank you to a number of people who pointed out 
that there were a large number of links that didn't work anymore. As a 
result, I've just checked and updated the links.

Additions include Traveller Central, the TML archives, Solsec, 
Quiklink.... Thanks to Tod Glenn and Mark Urbin for the suggestions they 
gave me in January (!!).

Deletions include Halfway Station and the Missouri Archive. In the case of 
the latter, does anyone know where it's gone or have an email address for 
Joe heck. I'm willing to put the material up at BITS but need to get hold 
of it first.

If you have a website you think should be there - Traveller, SF or retail 
related* - let me know.

*retailers get there if they either stock Traveller or BITS or will order 
the material in.

Cheers,

Dom
BITS webmaster
webmaster@bits.org.uk

---------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com----------
     MacOS X 10.1 - Unix with Style
"Reality, is something that you rise above..
We don't see things as they are,  we see them as we are."
Rich - Marillion - .com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat Apr 13 05:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] Website update - Links page refreshed
In-Reply-To: <8A25820D-4ED0-11D6-8747-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEGMDKAA.tml@downport.com>

http://traveller.mu.org/ the Missouri Archive

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Dominic Mooney
Deletions include Halfway Station and the Missouri Archive. In the case of
the latter, does anyone know where it's gone or have an email address for
Joe heck. I'm willing to put the material up at BITS but need to get hold
of it first.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 07:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr 13 06:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a  starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020411151634.0209ac08@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <DAV14LEGhUOjO0L6WkQ00004c57@hotmail.com>


> Good post.

Thank you, sir.

>A couple of points to think about: one of them being the
> general piracy scenario (but that's not one I want to go into now).

Same here, actually.  My main purpose here is to use the pirate scenario to
illuminate certain ideas concerning insurance and (later on) litigation.  I
have no interest in proving how many pirates can dance on the head of a pin.
<g>

>The
> other being the definition of when the ship becomes salvage (versus the
> recovery of stolen property).  Hopefully someone with better knowledge of
> maritime law can chime in here, but the rule of thumb that I've used IMTU
> goes as follows:

<Followed by five paragraphs chocked full of Traveller gaming goodness.>

I like the way you handle salvage IYTU.  I especially like the "Ownership
Abandoned" list put out by insurance companies for tax purposes.

After scrying using the Orb of Google, it appears that we may both mean the
Law of Finds rather than salvage.

Salvage appears to be recompense for the rescue or recovery of a vessel or
property for which ownership can be established.  In many cases, this
compensation is such that simply giving the salvor salvaged property is the
best way to straighten things out.

Law of Finds would seem to apply where ownership can't be determined in a
reasonable period of time, or ownership has been abandoned.  Law of Finds
basically says "Finders keepers, losers weepers."  You find it - you keep
it.

Note also that special cases seem to apply to historical shipwrecks and
military vessels.

http://www.cpanet.freeserve.co.uk/salvagelaw.htm

www.law.cornell.edu/background/amistad/salvage.html

http://law.freeadvice.com/admiralty_maritime/salvage_and_treasure/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lasalle/owners.html

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 07:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr 13 06:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Images - Visual goodies for Traveller games
Message-ID: <DAV582gNDSWnV8u622h00004bc9@hotmail.com>

Not to mention some genuinely fascinating stuff.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DD422F.3A0F2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>

At 02:02 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Greetings all.
>
>I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
>currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
>CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
>plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
>
>See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
>
>http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html

I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:19:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:19:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Russian translation?
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080300.009fb870@mindspring.com>

Quick question for Trojan Reach.

What is the correct translation of New Moscow?  In Anglic characters, please.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Russian translation?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080300.009fb870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB84D28.11DDCBDC@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> Quick question for Trojan Reach.
> 
> What is the correct translation of New Moscow?  In Anglic characters, please.

Novaya Moskva.

In as close to Cyrillic as ASCII allows, "HOBARA MOCKBA", where the "R"
is reversed to become the Cyrillic "ya."

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DD9BDF.3A104%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:05 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
>> I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
>> currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
>> CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
>> plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
>> 
>> See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
>> 
>> http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> 
> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> 

What browser are you using?  What currency did you try to convert?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB84E2C.D57685D0@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 02:02 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Greetings all.
> >
> >I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
> >currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
> >CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
> >plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
> >
> >See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
> >
> >http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> 
> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.

Well, things were less expensive when Traveller first came out.... ;-)

I get the same results, regardless of currency tried.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB84E2C.D57685D0@premier.net>
Message-ID: <B8DD9D45.3A108%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:26 AM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:

>> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> 
> Well, things were less expensive when Traveller first came out.... ;-)
> 
> I get the same results, regardless of currency tried.

Are you using commas in the amount?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DD9D45.3A108%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB8507B.5ABAC1B9@premier.net>


Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> on 4/13/02 8:26 AM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:
> 
> >> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> >
> > Well, things were less expensive when Traveller first came out.... ;-)
> >
> > I get the same results, regardless of currency tried.
> 
> Are you using commas in the amount?

No, I'm not.  (Should I?)  And to answer the question you asked Doug,
I'm using Netscape Navigator 4.78.


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DD9BDF.3A104%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB85132.3D63F4E5@mindspring.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/13/02 8:05 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
> >> I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
> >> currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
> >> CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
> >> plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
> >>
> >> See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
> >>
> >> http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> >
> > I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> >
>
> What browser are you using?  What currency did you try to convert?
>
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

I'm getting Cr 0 also. 1 to 1e6 Cr. With or without commas, periods, etc....

Obtrav: The exchange rate for TL 8 systems without regular interstellar commerce
SUCKS!


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB85132.3D63F4E5@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:39 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

> 
> I'm getting Cr 0 also. 1 to 1e6 Cr. With or without commas, periods, etc....
> 
> Obtrav: The exchange rate for TL 8 systems without regular interstellar
> commerce
> SUCKS!

again.  Need platform and browser.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDA624.3A114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:50 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> on 4/13/02 8:39 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I'm getting Cr 0 also. 1 to 1e6 Cr. With or without commas, periods, etc....
>> 
>> Obtrav: The exchange rate for TL 8 systems without regular interstellar
>> commerce
>> SUCKS!
> 
> again.  Need platform and browser.


Naturally, there is a bug in older version of Netscape's JavaScript that
I'll have to code around.

Version 6.0 works fine, or course.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DDA624.3A114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:08:53AM -0700
References: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <B8DDA624.3A114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020413101359.A27360@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:08:53AM -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> Naturally, there is a bug in older version of Netscape's JavaScript that
> I'll have to code around.

You might want to write the thing as a Perl ( or Python or Ruby or...)
CGI.  This a good way to eliminate such issues, since CGI is a much
more standard interface.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The age of chivalry is gone.  That of sophisters, economists and
calculators has succeeded; and the glory of Europe is extinguished
forever.   --Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020413101359.A27360@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B8DDA982.3A117%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 9:13 AM, Robert A. Uhl at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:08:53AM -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>> 
>> Naturally, there is a bug in older version of Netscape's JavaScript that
>> I'll have to code around.
> 
> You might want to write the thing as a Perl ( or Python or Ruby or...)
> CGI.  This a good way to eliminate such issues, since CGI is a much
> more standard interface.

But slower.  Just being quick and dirty.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits? Fixed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDA9B2.3A118%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:05 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

> At 02:02 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>> Greetings all.
>> 
>> I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
>> currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
>> CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
>> plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
>> 
>> See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
>> 
>> http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> 
> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> 

I fixed the code to work around a bug in older versions of netscape.  Please
try again.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 11:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Sat Apr 13 10:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: An Army marches on its stomach
References: <20020412150305.5859C27AC9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB866AF.A3E0F8AB@earthlink.net>

Mike asked:
>
> What do our lovely Ex Mil Travs think of this recent development?
>
> Mikey

Well, I'm not ex-mil but I am wondering just what effects the humectants
will have on the moisture-laden human gastro-intestinal system over a
period of time.

Yeah, let's just try a BM with something that doesn't absorb moisture
easily. Then again, it just may help the males in the military
understand
child birth a little better.
 
> PS You just know that someone is going end up eating the moisture sachet
> at one point. 

Naturally.

> PPS Can someone please translate what 'acceptable' actually means in the
> context of below. 

"Acceptable" as in they don't have to eat it all the time?


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 11:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Apr 13 10:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 11:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 10:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDB8E2.3A16C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 10:13 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61

Can you try again?  I changed some code and it seems to be fixed.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 12:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 11:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20413.101338.3x0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet...
> or even the moon?

size 7 planet is roughly 5,600,000 meters in radius. Or 748e18 m^3
volume. Or 55e18 dtons (at 13.5 m^3 per dton).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 12:17:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 11:17:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020411155818.5b11fc3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20413.101809.8V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Christopher Pratt wrote:
>> What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet... or
> even
>> the moon?
>
> Calculations for Luna follow:
>
> Using a diameter of 3.476 E+6 meters:
>
> Volume: 1.759 E+20 cubic meters

No. Volume is 4/3 pi r^3. You used diameter instead of radius. 

22e18 m^3

> Displacement: 1.257 E+19 displacement tons

1.6e18

> Surface area: 3.796 E+13 square meters

37.9e12 m^2

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204122116.DXS00114@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.112406.5e1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I keep hearing around 20,000 rads, but I've also heard that 
> someone cooked like that can linger for a day or so.  There 
> were some accidents with the Therac-25 machine where people 
> were accidentally given the maximum output of the machine 
> because of software errors.  Some of the doses were in that 
> range.
>
> Also, it's not clear how they calculate dosage.  In the 
> accident for the Therac, they describe radiation through a 
> very small cross-section of the body, but also describe a 
> calculated "whole-body" dose.
>
> If shielding worked that well per your gadget, then it would 
> be possible to build a small short range weapon that 
> consisted of shielding, a source that could produce a 20,000 
> rad/sec emission, and a shutter.
>
> I don't think that there's a handwave for "my body is dead 
> and I don't know it yet".

Doses above 600(?) rads will kill. But it'll take weeks to years. 

But as a rule of thumb, doubling the dosage halves the time to death.
And vice versa.

And unlike what we see in far too much SF on TV and in movies, there's
no sharp demarcation between "you're dead" and "you'll be ok".

Heck, if you use that rule of thumb I mentioned above, you'll find that
typical background counts will kill you in about 70 years. <g>

Oh yeah, most dosage stuff is LD50. That is, a "lethal in X days" dose
will kill 50% of those receiving it in that time. Some die sooner, some
die later.

We do have some data for *really* high exposures from a few accidents.
At least a couple *did* involve "prompt incapacitation" (5 min or less).

And the symptoms for that sort of dosage aren't pretty. Spewing form
both ends of the digestive tract, convulsions and other fun things.

Caring for someone who is *that* far gone is going to be really rough
on the other PCs. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:15:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:15:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.114937.2h4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Derek Wildstar says
> <snip derek's take on adjacent ships activating their 
> hyperdrive>
>
> That sounds pretty good. It means, however, that ships might 
> have a minimum separation, which affects fleet actions.

Actually, at the velocities most fleets will be moving at, and given
the danger zones of weapons, ships are *very* unlikely to be less than
*kilometers* apart, and likely tens or even hundreds of km apart.

Being able to *see* an adjacent ship in "formation" with the naked eye
will be *very* unusual. The excepts will be things like cargo and
personnel transfer operations.

> Would we also have another problem a la B5? Starting one jump 
> field within another?

Nobody knows what happens if you try. No ship that was going to try
testing that has ever been heard from again. <eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:15:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:15:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120438.DWL01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.115941.9D3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>  
>>
>>What are you looking for characterwise?
>>
> More Intel characters, especially a computer expert.

What, you have something against Motorola employees? <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:16:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:16:25 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
In-Reply-To: <20020412.131217.-193605.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20413.120658.7M5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Grade C   Civilian cheap/Ancient Military Surplus
>> Grade B2  Military Surplus
>> Grade B1  Civilian average
>> Grade A2  Current Military
>> Grade A1  Civilian Expedition Grade
>
> Ah the lucky service men/women of today are blessed with grade A food,
> HA!
>
> Back in 1972 - 1975 all I ever saw, ate, and enjoyed, HA, were C Rations
> packed in 1953!!!

Well, back in the late 60s/early 70s, I used to grab the Air Force
equivalent ("in flight meal packs") at the commissary to take on Boy
Scout camping trips. Basicly, we used them for dinner on Friday night
when we were tired after setting up camp, and didn't feel much like
putting a lot of effort into cooking. 

Some were better than others, but none were all that *bad*. And some
things, like the fruitcake and poundcake desserts were worth fighting
over. <g>

I was using a WWII vintage messkit and a WWII canteen & cup at the
time. Turned out that Lipton "instant soup" packages made exactly
enough soup for a canteen cup full of water. 

And the cans from the meal packs fit into the cup nicely too. Boil them
for a bit and they were nice and hot.

Then again, I liked most food in the school caefteria, so I may not be
the best judge of these things. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
References: <20020413111907.EC28E27AF7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB88500.956F16CB@ameritech.net>



> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:05:39 -0400
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
> Subject: Re: [TML] The "gun" debate
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> At 01:46 PM 4/12/02 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> > > From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> > >> Please...
> > > Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> > > sex lives.
> >Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
> >subscribe via the digest.
> >Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
> >mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT
> >political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to
> >keep the list Traveller focused.
> 
> Hmmm...I haven't noticed the thread discussing the politics of 
> ownership

<snip>

There were a few. Thankfully not followed up on by others. Hence my
statement, "the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT political
issues...." To be honest I may be reacting more to trolls in sig files
than to the threads themselves. 

Sorry if I've offended.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204121200450.15966-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20413.122049.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> learened that the IRS doesn't keep  old Windrone machines. So the records
> kept say on a Winblown 95v1 is not viewable by the IRS. Keep that in mind
> for an audit. Got that from the H&R block people in town.

Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system. 

The disk formats haven't changed (not the flopiy ones anyway) and the
newer programs can generally read the data files from the older ones.

>  O.K. add the different Apples, Atarai, Franklin, Osborne <sp?> and for
> the U.K. members I will mention the Speccy <Spectrum: flame wars on
> comp.sys.cbm about this one> Each had a different basic. To the point that
> they wer pretty much incompatible with each other. I know that ther were
> other models using other Basic formats and loading. I know that my
> prefered PC system uses GCR formatiing. I think another one is called MFD,
> but am not certain of the title.

FM (aka "single density") and MFM (aka "double density" and "high density").

Most "modern" floppy controller chips can't read FM disks. But a lot of
fairly recent ones can. For example, the Adaptec SCSI cards that
include a floppy controller can. 

With some easily available software I can read TRS-80 floppies on my
PC. To read Commodore or Apple GCR disks, I'd have to install the old
CopyIIPC deluxe option board in one of my systems. 

>  Now take all of those and what I missed. Add to that the IBuM system
> starting from the Pc jr. to current. All the differeent versions of the
> windoze NT and ## themes. I mean can you today on the X thing read a disk
> from a PC jr  on original media/format?

PCjr floppies used the same format as the PC. 

No idea what the X-box uses. 

What gets fun is when you need to read things like 8" floppies or the
whacko Amstrad 3" (*not* 3.5"!) floppies. Or cassette tapes, or stringy
floppies or other weird media.

I once had to recover a program by reading paper tape by *hand*. 

>> It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the
>> Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of
>> pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding
>> and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of
>> languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate,
>> lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications
>> protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of
>> getting messages into and out of the system.
>
>  Point well stated. Computer incompatibilities would make the Imperiaum
> fall apart. Before the MT saga. Pardon me for using the Commodore as an
> example platform in this part. It is however the only one that I know to
> any degree. On the concept of  being standard for msg and images. I see a
> parrel to the C= PC platform. Take this msg that I am writing. Written in
> PINE 4.44 my e-mail system. Sent out in ASCII. Though my actual system
> uses the PET ascii as it's default system. HTML though for a msg does bug
> me and a lot of people. On my system it presents all the commands as well
> as the msg. Yet I can use a prg from last year called Wave B2.9 <still
> Beta> that allows me to read in 80c HTML. In fact my book mark file is
> converted that way. JOs a free Beta Test DL also will read on screen HTML.

I have a DOS program called HTMSTRIP that takes HTML and produces a
reasonably formatted plain text file. It even puts in the "boxes" in
tables. 

>  Images: I can veiw off line GIF and JPG files. Also I can pritn them
> through Post Script and even EPS <Encapsulated Post Script> Images. There
> is a tool that I haven't had yet to use. That will convert PDF to PS for
> my use and zip it in PK2.04g zip. A format that I can also use in packing
> and unpacking. All on a 1984 PC.

There's a DOS program that'll view many image formats, including .AVI
and MPEG files, and play a lot of sound formats. 

>  As i showed above. There would be those that would create ways to use the
> systems to see the new items. Though I do have a tendency to bristle at
> the term "standard". Been a victim of that erronous ideaology many times
> in many situations. I do think that some sort of "chip" is needed for the
> interchange of Imperial  material. Though there are probaly PRGs to
> convert the material to local standards. As i have tools to convert Ascii
> to PET ascii. Or the ability to log onto a BBS or even here with Ansi
> colours. Making the material sutible for the local inhabitants and the
> systems that they are using. The question is the reverse possible? Which
> is where the  story plot originated.

Well, the idea is that there need to be publicly available standards.
Having multiple standards is merely inconvenient as long as the info
on the file formats is available. 

>  Using today as an example. Can the Windoze users here read a file that I
> make? Well some of them they can. The previously mentioned gwimport.exe
> file. But that is only for text, not the images. There are emulators if
> the file is make in that format <.D64, .D71, .D81> But only work if the
> user hs the tool to use the files. Vice 1.8 IIRC. So I would suggest that
> something in the reverse that is from local to Imperial would need to have
> ben created. Or t here is some sort of thing. Like you mentioned the Inet.
> Where the ability to collect items of interest is found in some form of
> compatible mannerism.

The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
to import and export files in those formats.

Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:16:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <200204122133.DXT01374@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.123907.8I6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson talks about radioactivity
> <snip>
>
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone 
> can help out and pony up their house rules).
>
> Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-
> T) powerplant's energy output will be in the form of 
> neutrons.  

Except Traveller fusion plants don't use the D-T reaction. They would
appear to use some form of p-p reaction.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:16:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:16:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b8dd1a45b944@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20413.124305.2I4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> And the question is whether
> a) Is this likely (just because some sort of terrorist act is 
> possible doesn't mean that someone is trying to do it.  We didn't 
> protect against the 9/11 incident because, in past, such an act 
> simply wasn't likely enough.  The failure was to recognize that rise 
> of those willing and able to do such a thing).  There are still 
> things out there were someone could cause loss of life that we don't 
> protect against.

Just a few things off the top of my head...

Within half a mile of each other locally are the following:

A major "tank farm" for petroleum products.
A factory producing chlorine and hydrogen chloride by the ton. 
A producer of liquid oxygen (with a tank several stories tall!).
A semiconductor related plant that uses large quantities of stuff like
phosphine and arsine gases. 
A residential area.

Oh yeah, tankers dock between the chlorine/HCL producer and the tank farm...

For a real scare, read the labels on those tank cars on the railroad,
then look up the hazard warnings for the materials in question.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:17:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:17:11 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20413.125426.3y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61

You should try upgrading to 4.79.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F216ap21GXYqZM8Wapp0001d245@hotmail.com>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

     "You and Mr. Laning and I are in general agreement on this point.  
Solomani, whether Imperial or Confederate, suppress the truth of Vegan, 
Geonee, Azhanti, what-have-you revolts that finally toppled the Ziru Sirka."

Mr. Goffin,

     Thank you, sir.  Having the MYMINES, Ltd. legal department agree in 
general with my proposals is certainly heartening.  It means that I may be 
actually on to something and simply not just off my medicine.

     "An easy typographical error to make is Whipsnake, which is something 
else again, I suppose."

     My spell checker keeps wanting to "correct" my nom de List to Larceny 
Whipsnake.  Of course, it also spells Traveller with only one "L".  Silly 
CPU.
     Appropo of nothing, feeding Larsen E. Whipsnade into the wondefully 
weird "Vilani by Lonnie" engine results in this jaw breaker:

     Aagarashirenedanashiramik Huugarashire

     I think we may have stumbled across the name of the Vilani ambassador 
who visited the Sol system between the 2nd and 3rd Interstellar Wars and 
reported that Terra was nothing more than a "nest of pirates."  Oddly 
enough, immediately after that visit, Ambassador Huugarashire was able to 
retire rather earlier than most Ziru Sirka civil servants thanks in part to 
a very generous bequest in the will of a long lost uncle.  Even more oddly, 
the bequest was paid in Terran Confederation sols.  All inquiries about this 
strange turn of events should be directed to the ambassador's new address 
and should also use his new title.  Please forward all correspondance and/or 
summons to "King Huugarashire, third hammock from the left, the Isle of 
Yap."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <F264Wf26myeOi1EkcZy0001ef51@hotmail.com>

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

     "Except Traveller fusion plants don't use the D-T reaction. They would 
appear to use some form of p-p reaction."


Mr. Erickson,

     I know you've posted information on the p-p reaction many times before, 
but could you do so again please?  I'd like to see what sort of particles 
we'd be dealing with using that specific reaction.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB88500.956F16CB@ameritech.net>
References: <20020413111907.EC28E27AF7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413165050.01a26eb0@192.168.0.1>

At 02:20 PM 4/13/2002 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:05:39 -0400
> > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
> > Subject: Re: [TML] The "gun" debate
> > Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > At 01:46 PM 4/12/02 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > > > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> > > > From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> > > >> Please...
> > > > Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> > > > sex lives.
> > >Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
> > >subscribe via the digest.
> > >Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
> > >mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT
> > >political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to
> > >keep the list Traveller focused.
> > Hmmm...I haven't noticed the thread discussing the politics of
> > ownership
><snip>
>There were a few. Thankfully not followed up on by others. Hence my
>statement, "the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT political
>issues...." To be honest I may be reacting more to trolls in sig files
>than to the threads themselves.

Trolling sig files...Golly!   Who would do such a thing? :-)

>Sorry if I've offended.

Perhaps someone else may have been offended, but personally, I'm pretty 
thick skinned.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 15:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 13 14:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <20020413.142703.-23853.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

Mark

On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:52:38 -0400 Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
>
> Perhaps someone else may have been offended, but personally, I'm 
> pretty thick skinned.

Oh, thick skinned huh?

What's your armor rating?

Turokan :~)

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 15:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Apr 13 14:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Images - Visual goodies for Traveller games
In-Reply-To: <DAV582gNDSWnV8u622h00004bc9@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV582gNDSWnV8u622h00004bc9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020413234102.6af49573.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> Not to mention some genuinely fascinating stuff.
> 
> http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html

*drool*

Lovely link, thanks.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 15:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Apr 13 14:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20413.101809.8V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020411155818.5b11fc3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20413.101809.8V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020413234327.7deee729.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> No. Volume is 4/3 pi r^3. You used diameter instead of radius. 

*sound of head hitting table repeatedly*

I think I had a bit too much stupid for breakfast that day...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 19:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Sat Apr 13 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEBPCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

John Kwon wrote :-
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone
> can help out and pony up their house rules).

Modified GURPS radiation rules follow (exposure levels OK, biological
effects off a bit in G:Comp 2).
Contact me off-list for d20 and MT versions (the latter may still
be available on the Freelance Traveller site).


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

------------------------------
Acute radiation exposures can have adverse effects. Check on the
table, rolling against HT every day the character is exposed to
at least 1 rad per day. Compare with the character's total
accumulated dose to see what the effects are.

Radiation Effects Table
Dose (rads)    HT Roll
5-70       : Fail :- A, onset 1d+6 hours, lasts 1 day
           : Critical Fail :-  A, onset 1d hours, lasts 1 day
71-150     : Fail :- A, 1d hours
           : Critical Fail :- D(H), HA within 24h
151-300    : Success :- A, B(-1) within 48h
           : Fail :- D(H), HA within 24h
           : Critical Fail :- E, 1d weeks
301-530    : Critical Success :- A, B(-1) within 48h
           : Success :- B(-2), C on exposure, D(H), HA within 48h
           : Fail :- E, 1d weeks
           : Critical Fail :- GI, within 48h
531-830    : All suffer A within 24h, C on exposure, E in 1d-1 weeks
           : Critical Success :- B(-2), D(E, H), HA within 24h
           : Success :- B(-3), D(E, H), HA within 24h
           : Fail or Critical Fail :- as per success, add
             GI within 24h
831-3000   : All suffer A within 12 hours, B(-3), C on exposure,
             D(E, H), GI within 12 hours, E in 3d+3 days
           : Critical Fail :- CV within 1d hours
3001-8000  : CV ; A, within 1d hours ; B(-3) ; C on exposure ;
             D(E, H, P) ; E, 1d days
8000+      : All suffer CV ; A within 1d hours and E within 4d hours.

* Key to Effects Table
A : Nausea, headache and vomitting (1d penalty to ST, DX, IQ).
Listed dice roll is for time of onset post exposure. Roll daily
against HT to recover 1 point of each attribute.
Critical success restores 2 points and means that symptoms are
controlled for that day.
Failure leads to the loss of 1 point, critical failure, 2.

B : Fatigue (penalty to ST and HT given). Roll daily to
recover 1 point of ST or HT on a critical
success. Failure loses 1 ST or HT point, critical failure loses 1
of each. Low Pain Threshold for seven days following exposure.

C : Incapacitation : -4 penalty on physical tasks for 2 days,
-2 on mental tasks for 1 day.

D : Skin changes. Erythema (E) is a mild reddening of the skin.
(H) refers to hair loss. Hair falls out within 24 hours.
(P) refers to partial thickness ("second degree") burns which do 1d damage.
Skin breakdown may ensue over the two weeks following exposure.

E : Death. Survival time from exposure without aggressive treatment
is given by the dice roll.

HA :- Haematopoietic syndrome - roll daily to prevent loss of 1 HT.
Stopped on critical success.
Hemophilia disadvantage in effect while ST, DX, IQ depressed.

GI :- Gastrointestinal syndrome - roll daily to prevent permanent
loss of 1 HT. Stopped on critical success. Characters have the Weak
Immune System disadvantage while affected, and are prone to diarrhoea
and fevers, in addition to symptoms listed above. If HT falls below 4,
teeth and nails begin to fall out.

CV :- Cerebral syndrome - 2 IQ and hits are lost within an hour
of exposure. Roll vs. HT to maintain consciousness (and prevent
loss of 1 HT on a critical success) every hour. With exposures
above 8000 rem, HT loss is irreversible. Consciousness checks
are made every hour at -2. Once consciousness is lost or HT falls
to zero, fitting ensues, then death.

* Long-term effects (months to years post exposure) :-
i. Cataracts - the threshold for development of lens opacities is a
dose of 200 rads. Make a HT check every six months, with a -1 for
every additional 100 rads of either acute or chronic exposure. On a
fail, the damage is spotted before it interferes with vision ; on a
critical fail, Blindness ensues.

ii. Dermatitis - cumulative exposures to the skin alone can cause
chronic skin changes. True radiation dermatitis is only seen at
exposure levels that would be lethal if they were whole
body doses (e.g. radiotherapy for some cancers). The skin effects
seen at the dose levels above are often permanent with chronic
exposures. In game terms, apply the Slow Healing or Reduced Hit
Points disadvantages to the relevant body area(s).

iii. Carcinogenesis - the probability of developing tumours varies
with the dose and the tissues affected ; the precise mechanisms of
initiation remain unclear as of 2001.
For example, the incidence of leukaemia peaks at 5-6 years post
exposure. Other malignancies have latencies of 15 to 60 years.

The probability of finding a clinically apparent malignancy
in any given year roughly increases with age. As a rule of thumb,
every 100 rads of radiation exposure increases the lifetime risk
by 1 percent.

Age   Probability  Very approximate dice rolls
< 15  1/3,000      30 on 5d6
< 35  1/750        24 on 4d6
< 54  1/125        22 or better on 4d6
< 75  1/30         12 on 2d6
> 75  1/60         17 or better on 3d6
(based on US cancer figures for 1980, both sexes)

For game purposes, a critical failure (18) on a HT roll means
that a malignancy has been detected. A -1 modifier applies for
every 200 rads of radiation exposure. Check once a year.

iv. Damage to Fertility
Reproductive cells are sensitive to radiation.
Dose (rads)    Effect
150            Sterility for 1-6 weeks
250            Sterility for 1-2 years
500            Permanent sterility in 75%
800            Permanent sterility in 100%



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 20:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Apr 13 19:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] landgrab questions
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEDOGHAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I've claimed Biter and was working on by landgrab and I have a few questions

What is the fleet number for the Imperial Sword World subsector fleet?
Where is it headquartered?
What is Lunion's fleet number?
Does it help out imperial forces in the Sword Worlds?



________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr 13 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of malfunction?
Message-ID: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>

Authenticity Disclaimer:  This information has not been verified by me or
anyone that I personally trust.  I do not know if the facts cited are true.

I await comment from the learned members of this group.

<Begin snip>

OFFICER SAFETY WARNING

Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) Unit Causes
Malfunction of Officer's Issue Firearm

In July 2001, an officer from the Manheim Township (Lancaster County,
Pennsylvania) Police Department had an incident where his issue firearm
malfunctioned. The Smith & Wesson, Model 4013, .40 S&W caliber,
semi-automatic pistol was found to have a magnetized firing pin, which stuck
to the side of the channel within the slide. Upon inspection, it was
determined that the entire pistol had become so magnetized that paper clips
actually stuck to any metal surface. The department armorer was able to
demagnetize the firearm with the use of a high-power, videotape-erasing unit
after complete disassembly.

When the malfunction was discovered, the officer had no idea of when or how
his pistol had become magnetized. A review of the officer's activities,
revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical office
that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During the
investigation, the officer had walked into the MRI suite that magnetized the
pistol. MRI medical personnel have detailed instructions on safety, which
include keeping metal objects away from the unit. Upon further inspection,
two additional officer's firearms were also found to have been magnetized.

RECOMMENDATION

ALL ISSUE FIREARMS SHOULD BE CHECKED FOR THIS CONDITION

Police department and medical facility security administrative personnel
should notify officers of the following:

Investigations within medical facilities could magnetize an issue firearm
rendering it inoperable.

The test to determine if a firearm has become magnetized is to place a paper
clip next to the firearm.

If the paper clip sticks to the firearm, a supervisor should be notified
immediately.

A trained department-designated officer should verify the firearm is
magnetized and the firearm should be demagnetized with the use of a
high-powered videotape-erasing unit after it has been completely
disassembled.

The firearm should be test fired prior to being returned to service.

The fact that there is no outward sign that a firearm may not function as a
result of MRI/magnetic exposure makes this problem difficult to detect.
Awareness of this situation may prevent serious or deadly consequences.

Source: Sing, Lieutenant Douglas K. Manheim Township (Lancaster County,
Pennsylvania) Police Department Revised March 2002.

<end snip>

from website

http://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/officersafetyMRI.htm

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DDB8E2.3A16C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413200302.009ee460@mindspring.com>

At 10:28 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>on 4/13/02 10:13 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > Tod Glenn wrote:
> >
> > P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61
>
>Can you try again?  I changed some code and it seems to be fixed.

Works now, nice little utility.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:08:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:08:21 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of
 malfunction?
In-Reply-To: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413200431.009efbd0@mindspring.com>

At 09:30 PM 4/13/02 -0500, you wrote:
>When the malfunction was discovered, the officer had no idea of when or how
>his pistol had become magnetized. A review of the officer's activities,
>revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical office
>that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During the
>investigation, the officer had walked into the MRI suite that magnetized the
>pistol. MRI medical personnel have detailed instructions on safety, which
>include keeping metal objects away from the unit. Upon further inspection,
>two additional officer's firearms were also found to have been magnetized.

Considering the officer had to walk past large signs warning that a BIG 
freaking magnet was in use, I think the department should charge him for 
the repairs.

I accidentally left my steel wedding ring on during my last MRI.  The damn 
thing vibrated to the point it actually became warm.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Terran/Vilani conflict (Was: Deadliness of combat)
In-Reply-To: <20020411004002.DF53927A7B@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140512410.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>     We've got the constant drum beat in canon about the Vilani "way of war"
>being brutally pragmatic.  They use hostages, have no qualms about nukes,
>target civilians, etc., etc., anything tactic that is cost effective.

What constant drum? We have _one_ reference that details Vilani war
practices, and that reference is of rather late vintage (MT) and is part
of the Forbidden Canon. If you find yourself unable to reconcile that with
the historical events of the Traveller Universe, then I'd suggest that its
the description of Vilani war practices that requires amendment.

>     The Ziru Sirka, or it's direct antecedents, were able to put the Vilani
>boot on the neck of quite a number of species and they've kept it there for
>millennia.  The fact that the Geonee, Suerrat, Syleans, et. al. are still
>being kept down at the same time the Terrans show up tells me that the
>Vilani could still get the job done.

It tells me that they didn't exterminate minor races wantonly, claims
about their ruthlessness to the contrary notwithstanding. So maybe they
weren't quite so ruthless as they are painted in _Cogs&Dogs_.

>     "The Vilani might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really
>capable of, or were under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder."
>
>     After losing the first two Interstellar Wars and visiting the Sol
>system, the Vilani should have known what the Terrans were really capable
>of.  GT:RoF also mentions that the Vilani, when faced with the bewildering
>welter of Terran cultures and genotypes, thought they were facing an
>alliance of several minor human races.  That "threat" alone should have
>spurred some sort of response.

Like a search for the other homeworlds of the alliance? I certainly can't
blame the poor Vilani governor for wanting to locate the other homeworlds
before destroying the only one he knew of. For all he knew Terra was just
the catspaw and the other races of the alliance the real threat...

>     It's the dichotomy that get's me wondering.  We've got ZS governors
>still keeping the boot on the neck of umpteen minor races, we've got the
>coreward governors arming and using Vargr mercs in political power games
>against each other, and, at the same time, we've got governor after governor
>after on the Rim behaving completely unlike the others throughout the ZS and
>losing piddling wars to a minor race nearly totally confined to a single
>system.

The Terrans made a huge effort early in the game to disperse to other
worlds precisely because they feared that Terra would be destroyed. By the
time the Vilani realized that they had a real fight on their hands, the
Terrans were no longer confined to a single system. And don't forget the
other members of that alliance of minor races...

>     "Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion sentients would do?"
>
>     But they'd done it in the past, i.e. the Sky Raiders, and were
>currently threatening to do it to others, the many minor races being held
>down, so why didn't it happen to Sol?  The Ziru Sirka had the numbers, it
>had better technology, and it was chillingly ruthless.  How did it happen to
>lose?

Well, my take is that they didn't have the numbers. If the Vilani (as I
believe) considered 50 to 500 million an ideal size for a planetary
population and deliberately kept their major worlds fstable at those
levels, Terra could actually have outnumbered all the vilani worlds in
[Vilani name for Sol Sector] Sector.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
References: <20020413111905.52B7127AF6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004701c1e367$1bb70380$705e8690@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> But if you went to last week somewhere *else*, you'd have some
> freedom, because you wouldn't *know* what the past was *there*.
>
> Check out Dr. Robert Forward's novel Timemaster for a wormhole based
> FTL drive that allows time travel and complies with this sort of
> restrictions.

A week or two back I started working on an idea for a solo game.  It's since
developed into a world design system for a non-OTU game.  I'm using a
wormhole based FTL, as it allows you to use network/area mapping, and not
bother with "uninteresting" systems.

I'm going for a very abstract system, so fudges like this aren't a problem.

(Memo to self: does "FTL radio" exist?)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Deadliness of combat
In-Reply-To: <20020412005321.E214327A98@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>    All of Holland worked for their resistance, the Germans had a devil of
>time finding collaborators there.  The Danes, from the King on down, wore
>the yellow Star of David and helped their Jews escape to Sweden.

Actually, the story goes that King Christian threatened to wear the yellow
Star of David if it was forced on Danish Jews. I'm not sure how much truth
there is in that story. Denmark's situation during the early years of
occupation was anomalous. The Germans pretended that they were in Denmark
merely to protect us against attack by the Allies and that we were their
ally. Consequently they were hampered in just what they could 'request'
the Danish government to do. For instance, Danish Jews were never required
to wear the Star of David.

Indeed, I've been told that the Allies might have treated Denmark as a
true ally of Germany if it hadn't been for three things: Free Danish
sailors volunteering in droves to serve on English ships, the rescue of
the Jews, and the efforts of the Danish Resistance.

>ObTrav - So, from the Vilani point of view, who were the "French" to the
>Terran's "Nazis" during the Interstellar Wars?  The Vegans?  Some other
>human minor race?

Well, I imagine the Dingiransmust have become pretty thoroughly 'Terranized'
over the years for them to be made the new capital.



Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:10:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:10:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120438.DWL01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DE4F27.3A29F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 9:38 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>> 
>> What are you looking for characterwise?
>> 
> More Intel characters, especially a computer expert.
> 

No way, John.  That's too much like real life (I'm an IT professional).  The
computer expert does *not* wish to play a computer expert.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204140417.EAC00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson writes:
>What, you have something against Motorola employees? <g>
>
No, just AMD.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Deadliness of combat
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>; from rancke@diku.dk on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200
References: <20020412005321.E214327A98@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020413222116.A28871@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> Denmark's situation during the early years of occupation was
> anomalous.  The Germans pretended that they were in Denmark merely
> to protect us against attack by the Allies and that we were their
> ally.  Consequently they were hampered in just what they could
> 'request' the Danish government to do.

ISTR that at one point the King of Denmark was arrested.  It took
quite a bit of German military might to defeat retainers armed with
quarter-staffs, pole-arms and swords.  Or is that another king I'm
thinking of--or purely an urban legend?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To believe in gun control, one has to believe that guns are not an
effective means of self-defense, which is why police carry them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204140424.EAD00152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
<snip the hazards near his home>

Not too far from here is the Calvert Cliffs nuclear plant.  
A "very" short distance from there is a docking platform for 
LNG (liquified natural gas) tankers.  The dock and pipeline 
is not in use at the moment, but they are talking about 
reactivating it.

I remember reading about "sublimation" accidents.  They say 
that an ocean-going LNG tanker holds the equivalent of tens 
of kilotons of explosive power.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204140424.EAD00152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DE54E0.3A2B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 9:24 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Not too far from here is the Calvert Cliffs nuclear plant.
> A "very" short distance from there is a docking platform for
> LNG (liquified natural gas) tankers.  The dock and pipeline
> is not in use at the moment, but they are talking about
> reactivating it.
> 
> I remember reading about "sublimation" accidents.  They say
> that an ocean-going LNG tanker holds the equivalent of tens
> of kilotons of explosive power.

All you need is a big ship of fertilizer.  Remember Texas City?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204140452.EAD01433@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod says
<snip Texas City>

The problem with an LNG tanker is that anyone with a .50 BMG 
rifle within 1 km can put a hole in one of the tanks.  It 
doesn't have to be a HE or HEI round.  But once that leak 
pops, there's a runaway sublimation effect that blows the 
tank open and then the whole ship goes.

There were some concerns voiced about the effect that ships 
like this might have in a confined waterway.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 23:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat Apr 13 22:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEBPCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <000301c1e373$27a9fb00$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Robert O'Connor
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 18:47
To: TML, New
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules

John Kwon wrote :-
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone
> can help out and pony up their house rules).

Modified GURPS radiation rules follow (exposure levels OK, biological
effects off a bit in G:Comp 2).
Contact me off-list for d20 and MT versions (the latter may still
be available on the Freelance Traveller site).


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

------------------------------

Damn that was a good post Robert!  Kudos.  This one gets the CDR
treatment.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 23:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 13 22:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] JTAS question
Message-ID: <20020414.013949.-343735.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

Can someone summarize for me what is covered the article "A Traveller
Bibliography" in JTAS #8?



                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 00:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Apr 13 23:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Deadliness of combat
In-Reply-To: <20020413222116.A28871@4dv.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>; from rancke@diku.dk on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200
Message-ID: <3CB9C6FE.12042.25C89E@localhost>

On 13 Apr 2002, at 22:21, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> > Denmark's situation during the early years of occupation was
> > anomalous.  The Germans pretended that they were in Denmark merely
> > to protect us against attack by the Allies and that we were their
> > ally.  Consequently they were hampered in just what they could
> > 'request' the Danish government to do.

> ISTR that at one point the King of Denmark was arrested.  It took
> quite a bit of German military might to defeat retainers armed with
> quarter-staffs, pole-arms and swords.  Or is that another king I'm
> thinking of--or purely an urban legend?

I believe that what happened is that the Germans arrived just as the 
Royal Guard was conducting a full dress parade, so the Guards 
formed a double line and commenced disciplined volley fire (it must 
have looked like something straight out of the Napoleonic wars, 
only with bolt action rifles). This took the Germans somewhat by 
surprise and several were killed, but once they recovered from the 
initial shock, they started bringing up heavy weapons at which 
point the King ran out and ordered that the Guards surrender.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 00:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 23:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204140452.EAD01433@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DE7400.3A2DE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 9:52 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> The problem with an LNG tanker is that anyone with a .50 BMG
> rifle within 1 km can put a hole in one of the tanks.  It
> doesn't have to be a HE or HEI round.  But once that leak
> pops, there's a runaway sublimation effect that blows the
> tank open and then the whole ship goes.

Sublimation?  It is LNG right?  You have to have a solid transform directly
to a gas for it to be sublimation.

Carbon Dioxide ice sublimates.

Tod
(former Chemist) 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 01:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 00:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <F264Wf26myeOi1EkcZy0001ef51@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.233341.4R2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>      "Except Traveller fusion plants don't use the D-T reaction. They would 
> appear to use some form of p-p reaction."
>
>
> Mr. Erickson,
>
>      I know you've posted information on the p-p reaction many times before, 
> but could you do so again please?  I'd like to see what sort of particles 
> we'd be dealing with using that specific reaction.

The *overall* reaction is

4 H1 -> 1 He4

I don't recall the ways that (for example) the Bethe "solar phoenix"
reaction (which involves carbon as a catalyst) works. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 01:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 00:12:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <004701c1e367$1bb70380$705e8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20413.235758.2j2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: Leonard Erickson
>> But if you went to last week somewhere *else*, you'd have some
>> freedom, because you wouldn't *know* what the past was *there*.
>>
>> Check out Dr. Robert Forward's novel Timemaster for a wormhole based
>> FTL drive that allows time travel and complies with this sort of
>> restrictions.
>
> A week or two back I started working on an idea for a solo game.  It's since
> developed into a world design system for a non-OTU game.  I'm using a
> wormhole based FTL, as it allows you to use network/area mapping, and not
> bother with "uninteresting" systems.
>
> I'm going for a very abstract system, so fudges like this aren't a problem.
>
> (Memo to self: does "FTL radio" exist?)

Since Forward's book was published, further work was done on wormholes
and time travel.

It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
builds until it collapses the wormholes. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 03:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Apr 14 02:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of malfunction?
In-Reply-To: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020414114830.26705bd4.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical
office
> that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During
the
> investigation, the officer had walked into the MRI suite that magnetized
the
> pistol.

How would this kind of problem affect gauss/railgun type weapons?

Not that any PCs would try bringing any of them through security, mind
you...

 ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 06:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 05:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204141224.EAT00139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 06:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 05:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <200204141227.EAT00280@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

(Leonard Erickson)  says
>
>I don't recall the ways that (for example) the Bethe "solar 
>phoenix" reaction (which involves carbon as a catalyst) 
>works. 
>

I thought that the CNO cycle was a relatively "slow" rate 
reaction, even if it had a lower threshold to get started.

Also, isn't the p-p reaction the intended reaction for the 
Bussard ramjet?  I keep hearing that the p-p reaction is more 
difficult to start thant the D-T reaction.  And if we're 
going to make it so difficult, why not just use He-3?
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any
> upper limit
> ("that's no moon...")

Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
gravity well, and you misjump.

Net result : you can have a J6 planet. But no one can tell where its going.
Let's call it Heisenberg.

Regards

Andy Brick

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

ObTrav: Refueling in an oxygen atmosphere, of course.  

A liquified natural gas tanker poses a fire and explosion 
hazard.  Also, even though it is cryogenically cooled, a 
certain percentage of the tankage boils off every day.

I keep hearing people say that the fuel is carried in the 
form of liquid water and converted at the last minute.  This 
would seem to be inefficient, as a substantial portion of 
your tankage would not be usable fuel.  Liquid methane 
(liquified natural gas) might be a bit better than water, and 
probably what "unrefined" fuel from a gas giant would be.  
However, a significant proportion of the fuel would still not 
be hydrogen, unless the ship was using the CNO cycle.  
However, you don't need to keep putting carbon in the cycle, 
as it is reused.

Also, I have read several times in old Traveller works about 
the "L-Hyd" tank (which seems to say "liquid hydrogen" and 
not "water").  The description in the AHL supplement 
distinctly refers to the tankage on the Fuel Deck as "L-Hyd".

But I digress.  For optimum top-off, I think that refuelling 
would take place just prior to takeoff, in the same manner 
that they refuel the shuttle a few hours before takeoff. 

There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were 
topping off with LNG or L-Hyd.  If you were in atmosphere and 
someone scored a Fuel hit with a laser weapon, I'm betting 
that the ship's fuel tanks would explode.  What would have 
been a minor hit in space would be disastrous in atmosphere.  
See what happened to the fuel tank on the shuttle when the 
SRB played a flame on it.  One fuel hit in atmosphere and 
WHAM.

Also, I'm wondering what happens if the fuel tanks adjoin 
crew spaces, as they do in so many deck plans.  Let's say you 
depressurize before combat, and close bulkhead doors.  One 
compartment or more could be filled with fuel if the ship is 
hit in certain ways.  Equipment and personnel in these areas 
would be instantly destroyed/killed by cryogenic liquid.  

I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot 
of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and 
ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how 
it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only 
lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure - 
the fuel is subdivided into several large tanks, perhaps more 
on large combat vessels - but not on a small ship, which 
might have at most two separate tanks.  It would be hard to 
effectively pump fuel from a holed tank, if it was able to 
retain fuel at all after the hit.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>; from andy@exeus.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 01:59:26PM +0100
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 01:59:26PM +0100, Andy Brick wrote:
> 
> Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> gravity well, and you misjump.

Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
Betelgeuse.  So are you.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Mit den Frauen ist das wie mit den Firewalls: was [...] am meisten
Sicherheit garantiert und am wenigsten Probleme macht, ist immer das,
was zum speziellen Fall am besten passt.
                        --Urs Traenkner in de.comp.security.firewall

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An interesting product - anything like this in Traveller?
Message-ID: <200204141322.EAV00067@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

In any ship or vehicle design sequence, is there anything 
like this?  It seems to be an internal add-on that reduces 
the potential for internal explosions.

http://www.blastgard.net/outlook.asp

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:24:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:24:06 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
References: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c1e3b7$e7bc9260$52200050@matt>

> I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot
> of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and
> ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how
> it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only
> lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure -
> the fuel is subdivided into several large tanks, perhaps more
> on large combat vessels - but not on a small ship, which
> might have at most two separate tanks.  It would be hard to
> effectively pump fuel from a holed tank, if it was able to
> retain fuel at all after the hit.

How about self sealing linings around the tanks... the fuel loss is that
lost before the hole gets sealed...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting 
>a pull on Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>

Which made me dislike the "100 D" limit.  If I am at the 100 
D limit for Earth (at earth's distance from Sol, which has 
its own gravitational pull), what is the value of G?

Now let's compare that to the same value at 100 D from 
Jupiter.  I would bet that it's different.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <200204141331.EAV00387@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Matthew Bond" says
>
>How about self sealing linings around the tanks... the fuel 
>loss is that lost before the hole gets sealed...
>

On a cryogenic tank, no less.  Must be some of that 
Unobtanium lining the fuel tanks.

I think also, that we're probably talking about a fairly 
large spot size for ship laser weapons.  If they are anything 
like the planned SBL, the spot size will be around 1 foot.  
The hole in the fuel tank is likely to be larger, since the 
spot will move some.  And explosive missiles (if forged 
fragments, HEAT jets, or kinetic impactors) are going to make 
holes more than a few inches in diameter (or larger).  Self-
sealing only seems to work on modern aircraft fuel tanks for 
small non-explosive projectiles.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <F209IlOAPE3EzbwJp8k00003548@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBA2ECF.32620.8436A0@localhost>

On 13 Apr 2002 at 5:09, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      GURPS Compedium II has servicable rad rules.  IIRC, there are some MT 
> rules in a DGP Digest issue that deal with exposure rather exhaustively.

They're a bit messed up on what types of critters are most sensitive to 
radiation though, IIRC. Those rules have it that birds are something 
like 5 times _less_ sensitive to radiation than mammales, when AFAIK 
they're rather _more_ sensitive to radiation in RL.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEBPCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <3CBA30BC.19744.8BBA6A@localhost>

On 14 Apr 2002 at 11:47, Robert O'Connor wrote:

> iv. Damage to Fertility
> Reproductive cells are sensitive to radiation.
> Dose (rads)    Effect
> 150            Sterility for 1-6 weeks
> 250            Sterility for 1-2 years
> 500            Permanent sterility in 75%
> 800            Permanent sterility in 100%

Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
men, if you prefer)?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 08:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hullo

> > Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> > simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> > gravity well, and you misjump.
>
> Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
> Betelgeuse.  So are you.

But, unlike the Earth, the gravitational pull exerted by a human is not
sufficient to cause a misjump, which was my point.

I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.

A rough back of envelope calculation would be that the acceleration due to
gravity at 100 diameters is 2.43e-04 ms^-2. Given a body with the same
density as the Earth, then we're looking at 5.56g per cubic centimetre, or
5560 kg per cubic metre. This gives us a solid, uniform sphere 156 metres in
radius and with a mass of 8.841e10 kg, or a displacement tonnage of about
1,178,000 dTons. Hollow the sphere out and it would change things, but I'd
say that as a rough rule of thumb, a vessel with equivalent g at its surface
is never likely to reach its destination ...

Andy Brick


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 09:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr 14 08:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net>

Any update on T20?

Does anyone know when we are likely to see the 'offending' article ?

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 09:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Apr 14 08:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
 <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020414155356.08d6b44c.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Andy Brick wrote:
> Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> gravity well, and you misjump.
> 
> Net result : you can have a J6 planet. But no one can tell where its
going.
> Let's call it Heisenberg.

But all ships generate their own gravity wells...

Not of that magnitude, but still.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 10:35:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Apr 14 09:35:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Contact for Alvin Plummer?
Message-ID: <qibjbu0n0ieulkqta2ce6cslh5a727u1lf@4ax.com>

One of his articles on Freelance Traveller was slightly corrupted (on my
original, dammit!), and I need to talk to him to get the information needed
to uncorrupt it.  Can anyone pass me his address (off-list, please), or ask
him to contact me?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 10:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Apr 14 09:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <robjbu0fqnq6n9dnqt5e35f7a8qulahh5m@4ax.com>

On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 15:12:04 +0100, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
wrote:

>Hullo
>
>> > Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own =
gravity
>> > simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating =
inside a
>> > gravity well, and you misjump.
>>
>> Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
>> Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>
>But, unlike the Earth, the gravitational pull exerted by a human is not
>sufficient to cause a misjump, which was my point.
>
>I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
>Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.
>
>A rough back of envelope calculation would be that the acceleration due =
to
>gravity at 100 diameters is 2.43e-04 ms^-2. Given a body with the same
>density as the Earth, then we're looking at 5.56g per cubic centimetre, =
or
>5560 kg per cubic metre. This gives us a solid, uniform sphere 156 =
metres in
>radius and with a mass of 8.841e10 kg, or a displacement tonnage of =
about
>1,178,000 dTons. Hollow the sphere out and it would change things, but =
I'd
>say that as a rough rule of thumb, a vessel with equivalent g at its =
surface
>is never likely to reach its destination ...

Not that I'm up on the necessary math, but I would be interested in
the tidal force counterpart of these calculations.  I was very
impressed by the correspondence that was found between the tidal force
at 100 diameters and the effects which are described in Traveller.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 10:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sun Apr 14 09:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
In-Reply-To: <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEHLDKAA.tml@downport.com>

visit www.TravellerRPG.com for official T20 info... as to the offending
article, were you speaking of yourself or was it some sort of slight aimed
at a certain segment of Traveller players? :p

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Si

Any update on T20?

Does anyone know when we are likely to see the 'offending' article ?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Apr 14 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <F123KlnZcjKJXHC1gsW0000fa6c@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
men, if you prefer)?"


Mr. Boleyn,

     You are correct, sir.  Women never produce new eggs, they carry their 
lifetime supply with them at all times.  Men on the other hand continually 
produce new reproductive materials and must get rid of the older stuff to 
make room for the new.  That in itself explains quite a bit about male 
behavior.
     So, a female may be caring damaged genetic material if she had been 
exposed at ANY TIME during her life.  Males, due to their constant 
production of genetic material, only run the risk of donating damaged 
material if the exposure has been in the recent past.
     GURPS, in Compendium II, handles this in the following manner.  If a 
female has a lifetime dose of 250 rads, her offspring, and any problems they 
may have, are entirely at the GM's discretion.  If a male has recieved a 
dose of 100 rads within the last week, the same rule applies.
     A lfietime dose can be thought of as a running total of exposure that 
NEVER heals, it never goes away.  A female PC that recieved 25 seperate ten 
rad doses over several years of game time may have easily survived the 
effects of each of those exposures.  The burns, blood problems, and whatnot 
may be long behind her, but her lifetime dose is now 250 rads and any of her 
offspring are at the GM's mercy.
     Realistic?  Yes.  "Fair"?  No, but then again life is never fair.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 12:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Apr 14 11:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] landgrab questions
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEDOGHAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3CB9CF31.40F7C89F@mindspring.com>

John-Martin wrote:


> I've claimed Biter and was working on by landgrab and I have a few questions
>
> What is the fleet number for the Imperial Sword World subsector fleet?

Flipping open the rebellion source book we find........There is none. The
nearest is Lunion 43, or Vilis 193. Oddly I see Fleet 208 is assigned to all the
way over in Five sisters. But none in the Sword Worlds.

>
> Where is it headquartered?

See above

>
> What is Lunion's fleet number?

See above

>
> Does it help out imperial forces in the Sword Worlds?

We have no forces in the Sword Worlds. Those are just nasty rumors and Sword
Worlder propaganda. Please, have another drink and a narco stick. Enjoy the
music.



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 12:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Apr 14 11:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Terran/Vilani conflict (Was: Deadliness of combat)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140512410.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3CB9CF94.4CB5EF74@mindspring.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

Forbidden Canon.
???!




--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 14:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 13:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <200204142037.NAA19289@molly.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Also, I have read several times in old Traveller works about 
>the "L-Hyd" tank (which seems to say "liquid hydrogen" and 
>not "water").  The description in the AHL supplement 
>distinctly refers to the tankage on the Fuel Deck as "L-Hyd".

Canon is clearly liquid hydrogen.
>
>There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were 
>topping off with LNG or L-Hyd.  If you were in atmosphere and 
>someone scored a Fuel hit with a laser weapon, I'm betting 
>that the ship's fuel tanks would explode.

Nope, no oxygen.  The fuel leak will almost certainly ignite, however.
>been a minor hit in space would be disastrous in atmosphere.  
>See what happened to the fuel tank on the shuttle when the 
>SRB played a flame on it.  One fuel hit in atmosphere and 
>WHAM.

That's because of having both liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen, which
makes for a very nice bomb.

>Also, I'm wondering what happens if the fuel tanks adjoin 
>crew spaces, as they do in so many deck plans.  Let's say you 
>depressurize before combat, and close bulkhead doors.  One 
>compartment or more could be filled with fuel if the ship is 
>hit in certain ways.  Equipment and personnel in these areas 
>would be instantly destroyed/killed by cryogenic liquid.  

Fuel tanks are probably double-walled.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 14:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 14 13:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 09:26:52AM -0400
References: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020414144128.A5149@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 09:26:52AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> Which made me dislike the "100 D" limit.  If I am at the 100 
> D limit for Earth (at earth's distance from Sol, which has 
> its own gravitational pull), what is the value of G?
> 
> Now let's compare that to the same value at 100 D from 
> Jupiter.  I would bet that it's different.

I'd assume that the 100D limit must have nothing to do with gravity,
but instead have to do, somehow, with the actual physical size of an
object.  Perhaps physical objects imprint themselves in jump space,
but do to its properties they imprint a far larger area.  Or
something:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`When you wake up in the morning, Pooh,' said Piglet at last,
`what's the first thing you say to yourself?'
`What's for breakfast?' said Pooh. `What do you say, Piglet?'
`I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?' said Piglet.
Pooh nodded thoughtfully. `It's the same thing,' he said.
                                            --A.A. Milne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 14:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 14 13:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>; from andy@exeus.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 03:12:04PM +0100
References: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020414144249.B5149@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 03:12:04PM +0100, Andy Brick wrote:
> 
> I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
> Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.

I believe the rule is any object larger than 1/2 mile will trigger
jump precipation.  So someone needs to calculate the gravity of, say,
a 1/2 mile wide rocky body.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
It's better to have a weapon and not need it than to need a weapon and
not have it.                                     --Sir Clarence Worley

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-lethal weapons in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <B8B628F4.2D246%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20414.132135.5B6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 3/14/02 9:42 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>> The speed of sound is around 1200 m/s. That means that a 10 Hz sound
>> wave has a wavelngth of 120 meters. A quarter wavelength "antenna" is
>> going to be 30 meters.
>
> Oops.  I think you meant 330 m/s.  I wish it were 1200m/s.  It would make
> silencing rifles a lot easier.

Ok, I seem to have screwed up a step in converting from the figure I
could recall (mph) to the one I wanted (m/s).

> And does sound really propagate like radio waves?  It's really just SIT
> between air molecules.

It's a wave phenomenon. It has wavelength and the wavelength affects
how it propogates. Wavelengtyh, frequency and speed of propogation have
a *fixed* relationship.

I think it's 

L * f = v

L = wavelength
f = frequency
v = propogation velocity

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:02:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:02:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204141224.EAT00139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20414.133137.4r5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Care to resend this in *text* instead of base64 encoding?

In mail John T. Kwon writes:

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> aGVyZSB0aGV5IA0KbWlnaHQgYmUgaWduaXRlZCBhbmQgZXhwbG9kZSBwdXR0aW5nIHB1Ymxp
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> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:02:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:02:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <200204141227.EAT00280@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20414.133330.3v1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> (Leonard Erickson)  says
>>
>>I don't recall the ways that (for example) the Bethe "solar 
>>phoenix" reaction (which involves carbon as a catalyst) 
>>works. 
>>
>
> I thought that the CNO cycle was a relatively "slow" rate 
> reaction, even if it had a lower threshold to get started.

In stars it takes a long time. In a fusion reactor that can run at
higher temps and pressures, who knows?

> Also, isn't the p-p reaction the intended reaction for the 
> Bussard ramjet?  I keep hearing that the p-p reaction is more 
> difficult to start thant the D-T reaction.  And if we're 
> going to make it so difficult, why not just use He-3?

p-p requires higher temperatures and pressures. But the fuel is so much
more abundant that if you can do it, it'd be *vastly* preferred.

Not only is helium-3 hard to accumulate, it's harder to store. Liquid
helium temps are something like two orders of magnitude harder to
maintain than liquid hydrogen temps (temperature differences are
logarithmic, not arithmetic. That is, what matters isn't the difference
in degrees, but rather the *ratio* of the abosolute temperatures. So
the difference between 4 K and 20 K is the "same" as the difference
between 300 K (room temp) and 1500 K (halfway between the melting
point of copper and that of iron))

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:03:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:03:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20414.134105.6N5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Robert A. Uhl" says
>>
>>Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting 
>>a pull on Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>
> Which made me dislike the "100 D" limit.  If I am at the 100 
> D limit for Earth (at earth's distance from Sol, which has 
> its own gravitational pull), what is the value of G?
>
> Now let's compare that to the same value at 100 D from 
> Jupiter.  I would bet that it's different.

At 100 diameters from a "rocky" type planet, the *tidal forces* will be
the same. That is, the rate of change of the strength of the gravity
field will match.

It's easy to show that any force that is the same at a given number of
*diameters* from a sphere of a given density has to be one that various
as the inverse *cube* of the distance. Which tidal forces do.

The tidal forces can also be thought of as representing how sharply
"curved" the space in that area is, which fits nicely with the jump
drive. If it is trying to "bend" space, then it's "obvious" that it'll
be more reliable if it isn't fighting the bends that already exist.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:03:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:03:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20414.134634.3h0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any
>> upper limit
>> ("that's no moon...")
>
> Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> gravity well, and you misjump.

*Everything* generates its own gravity field. 

So ships have to correct for self gravity (and possibily for their
internal gravity fields as well) anyway. A planet-ship would just have
to make bigger corrections.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:04:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hullo
>
>> > Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
>> > simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
>> > gravity well, and you misjump.
>>
>> Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
>> Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>
> But, unlike the Earth, the gravitational pull exerted by a human is not
> sufficient to cause a misjump, which was my point.
>
> I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
> Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.

Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
todal forces are the same.

Inverse *cube* law.

> A rough back of envelope calculation would be that the acceleration due to
> gravity at 100 diameters is 2.43e-04 ms^-2.

And the tidal forces are 

a/l = G*M /r^3

a = acceleration
l = distance for center of object experiencing tidal forces
G = Newton's gravitational constant
M = mass of object exerting tidal forces
r = distance from center of object exerting tidal forces.

I suspect that you'll find that the forces involved at 100 diameters
from Earth are similar to those at the hull of a fairly small ship.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:04:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:04:37 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <003a01c1e3b7$e7bc9260$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20414.135536.3A4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot
>> of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and
>> ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how
>> it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only
>> lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure -
>> the fuel is subdivided into several large tanks, perhaps more
>> on large combat vessels - but not on a small ship, which
>> might have at most two separate tanks.  It would be hard to
>> effectively pump fuel from a holed tank, if it was able to
>> retain fuel at all after the hit.
>
> How about self sealing linings around the tanks... the fuel loss is that
> lost before the hole gets sealed...

And *how* are they going to self-seal? Liquid hydrogen is at 20 Kelvin.
(20 centrigrade degress above absolute zero, around -424 F)

*Any* lining is going to be frozen solid at that temp. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <20414.133330.3v1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020414213134.EB02127A53@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/14/02 at 01:33 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
said:

>> Also, isn't the p-p reaction the intended reaction for the 
>> Bussard ramjet?  I keep hearing that the p-p reaction is more 
>> difficult to start thant the D-T reaction.  And if we're 
>> going to make it so difficult, why not just use He-3?

>p-p requires higher temperatures and pressures. But the fuel is so
>much more abundant that if you can do it, it'd be *vastly* preferred.

>Not only is helium-3 hard to accumulate, it's harder to store. Liquid
>helium temps are something like two orders of magnitude harder to
>maintain than liquid hydrogen temps (temperature differences are
>logarithmic, not arithmetic. That is, what matters isn't the
>difference in degrees, but rather the *ratio* of the abosolute
>temperatures. So the difference between 4 K and 20 K is the "same" as
>the difference between 300 K (room temp) and 1500 K (halfway between
>the melting point of copper and that of iron))

My favorite, non-standard, fusion reaction is p-B(11). Boron-11 isn't
*all* that rare, and with the advanced plasma, magnetic and gravitic
controls of the TU it should be quite doable.  This reaction results
in almost no hard radiation, and electricity can be directly drawn off
the resultant charged particles.  

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help Needed
In-Reply-To: <B8B62CD4.2D26D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20414.140952.0s8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 3/14/02 9:16 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>>> get me one of those nifty adapter cards for that if I understand
>>> 'hot-swappable' correctly).
>> 
>> Mine isn't hot-swappable either.
>> 
>> Though I have to note that with IDE that's a tall order to start with.
>> With SCSI it's a bit easier.
>> 
>> The big problem is that the OS may not recognize the swap.
>
> If it's truly hot swappable, that means you are running some kind of RAID,
> too.  I remember seeing the shocked expression on the face of a brang new
> tech when I blithely yanked the drive out of out Resilient server. Just for
> yucks I pulled a processor too.  This while the machine was happily serving
> files, routing email and all that king of good stuff.

With some OSes you can swap a drive while the system is running, you
just have to do a "dismount" before pulling the drive and a "Mount"
after putting in a replacement.

When I finally get my Netware server upgraded I'll be doing that
occasionally with a tape drive or a scsi drive in a mobile rack.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:05:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:05:23 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020415080419.A22995@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I keep hearing people say that the fuel is carried in the form of
> liquid water and converted at the last minute.

I think you keep hearing just *me* :)


>  This would seem to be inefficient, as a substantial portion of your
> tankage would not be usable fuel.

Tankage *mass*, yes.  However, water has 50% more hydrogen per unit
*volume* than does liquid hydrogen.  As an additional bonus, it is
*much* easier to store.  As a further bonus again, you can drink it,
and breathe the "waste" after refining.

Since ship operating costs are directly proportional to volume (not
mass), this works out much more efficient.  However, it will reduce
acceleration on full tanks somewhat.


>  Liquid methane (liquified natural gas) might be a bit better than
> water,

Except that it is harder to store, more hazardous, no use in life
support, less plentiful, and the waste (carbon) is much less useful.
The same applies to ammonia.  It turns out that the best figure for
hydrogen per unit volume (for common substances) is a highly
concentrated ammonia solution.  The waste product from the refining
process is an oxygen / nitrogen mix.  However it's much worse from a
handling point of view, and you can't just suck it up from oceans or
ice moonlets.


> Also, I have read several times in old Traveller works about 
> the "L-Hyd" tank (which seems to say "liquid hydrogen" and 
> not "water").

It does.

In my ship designs, ships still have a LHyd tank, because the jump
drives need a *lot* of pure hydrogen really fast when entering jump;
far more than a fuel refiner can deliver in such a short period of
time.  Canon is unfortunately unclear as to *how much* fuel used by
jump is consumed right at the start, and the subject is a recurring
"hot topic" (look up "drop tanks" or "Annic Nova" in the archives for
a sample).  IMTU, initiating jump requires about 1-5% of the ship's
volume in jump fuel, the same again on re-entry, with the rest
consumed slowly during jump.  The last can be delivered by refiners
from water tanks, and provides the crew with breathing air and
drinking water.


> There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were topping
> off with LNG or L-Hyd.

No -- there's nothing for it to burn with if you're fuelling at an
up-port dock, and even many planets have insufficient oxygen to
support a flame.  There would be a cryogenic hazard though,
particularly with LHyd.


> See what happened to the fuel tank on the shuttle when the 
> SRB played a flame on it.  One fuel hit in atmosphere and 
> WHAM.

That's because the shuttle contains huge amounts of cryogenic
propellant *and* oxidiser, in a convenient ready-to-mix form.


> One compartment or more could be filled with fuel if the ship is hit
> in certain ways.  Equipment and personnel in these areas would be
> instantly destroyed/killed by cryogenic liquid.

Yep -- cryogenic liquids are dangerous.  And of course a *minor*
internal hydrogen leak could cause a fire once you reintroduce oxygen.


> I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot 
> of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and 
> ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how 
> it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only 
> lose a small percentage of the fuel.

That's what I assume.  You don't want a big open tank of liquid in the
ship when you're doing 6g maneuvers and rapid rotations, either --
even liquids as light as LHyd have a *lot* of mass in large volumes.
So IMTU fuel tankage is heavily compartmentalised even on small ships.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:05:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:05:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Terran/Vilani conflict (Was: Deadliness of combat)
In-Reply-To: <3CB9CF94.4CB5EF74@mindspring.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140512410.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020414145753.009e8ae0@mindspring.com>

At 02:51 PM 4/14/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>
>Forbidden Canon.
>???!

Stuff published by Digest Group.  I'm not getting into that mud patch 
again, but suffice it to say that the owner of the copyright wants a 
ridiculous amount of money for it, and as a result, those of us writing for 
Traveller have to avoid things that appeared solely in DGP books and magazines.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020415081233.B22995@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> And the tidal forces are 
> a/l = G*M /r^3

If we use T for tide and rho for density, then a spherical body
induces a tidal stretching of
 T = 2 G rho (r/R)^3.

This more clearly shows that for a body of given density, the tidal
strength depends only on the ratio of diameter to distance.


> I suspect that you'll find that the forces involved at 100 diameters
> from Earth are similar to those at the hull of a fairly small ship.

So the size of the ship is irrelevant -- what matters is its density.
Suffice it to say that every ship in Traveller has amply more than
enough density to give a higher tidal force at 1 diameter than Earth
does at 10 diameters, let alone 100D.

Apparently only ships larger than 1km will actually precipitate other
ships out from jump, but I suspect ships entering jump should indeed
use the normal misjump rules for proximity to any other body
comparable in size to their own.  (You don't want a speck of dust to
cause a misjump :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-lethal weapons in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1016132100.8505.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20414.163834.3i9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>> 
>> And my "sodium grenades" will tend to seal the edges of the plastic to
>> the helmet.
>
> If you can reliably spray enough sodium to cause a problem, you can also
> probably hit them with a comparable amount of high explosive and kill them
> outright.

In a vacuum, you don't have to "spray". The atoms essentially travel in
straight lines from the dispenser until they hit something. At which
point they stop. 

It doesn't take a very thick coating (a few atoms thick) to make it
hard to so, and hard for the cooling system on your space suit to get
rid of the heat you are building up.

In a vacuum, high eplosives are much less effective, because they don't
have air to conduct the shock. All they have to ork with is the gases
they produce themselves. And a blast strong enough to cause trouble is
strong enough to damage gear in the compartment. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:26:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:26:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
References: <20020414132903.D582627B44@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c1e414$9dbef1a0$bdb18b90@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
> closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
> travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
> builds until it collapses the wormholes.

No surprises there.  And of course, since the possibility to use them for
FTL implies the possibility of using them for time travel, you can't use
them for FTL, etc.

Fortunately, we are dealing with science fiction, not real life, so this
analysis is hereby declared to be incomplete.  This also explains why "FTL
radio" isn't possible.  Oh, and traversing wormholes takes about 170 hours
or so, too.  : )

Incidentally, Yaskoydray definitely could have time travel.  Creating pocket
universes implies being able to do really, really interesting things to
space-time.  In fact, it might be possible to travel from the MT/TNE
universe to the GT one.  IMTU, Avery did!  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
Message-ID: <200204150043.RAA22864@molly.iii.com>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:

>From: Leonard Erickson
>> It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
>> closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
>> travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
>> builds until it collapses the wormholes.
>
>No surprises there.  And of course, since the possibility to use them for
>FTL implies the possibility of using them for time travel, you can't use
>them for FTL, etc.

Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.

In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
wormholes have to share a reference frame.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEAIDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
> and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
> (assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
> todal forces are the same.

(Tries it in Excel - ) Neat trick - hadn't seen this before - though I
suspect it only works because I used a  uniform density, and since that
won't be the case in the "real" (read:more random/realistic simulation of
the) universe, then using tidal forces as a basis for misjumps will vary the
rule either side of 100 diameters - for example, raise the density, and the
100 diameter limit drops to ninety something diameters.

But it doesn't really matter what causes the misjump effect. The fact
remains that a given mass will cause some form of gravitational effect that
invokes a misjump, and when you build a starship of that mass it should be
affected by its own gravitational effect - and hence misjump.

The maths/details don't really matter here - the concept is the thing. There
should be an upper limit of some kind on starship size imposed by the
misjump rule.

Andy B.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.346 / Virus Database: 194 - Release Date: 10/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com>

"Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com> writes:

>But it doesn't really matter what causes the misjump effect. The fact
>remains that a given mass will cause some form of gravitational effect that
>invokes a misjump, and when you build a starship of that mass it should be
>affected by its own gravitational effect - and hence misjump.

Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external fields.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 18:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
> trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
> to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external fields.

Or, that misjumps are poorly thought out.

They don't work if you use g, the gravitational field acceleration because
it varies so much.
They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
themselves.

So, has anyone got a better explanation of why 100 diameters, 10 diameters
etc are so very bad ?

Andy B


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.346 / Virus Database: 194 - Release Date: 10/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 19:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 18:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020415114537.A23557@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Brick wrote:
> They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
> themselves.

Isn't that what the jump grid is for; making sure that everything
contained within it is properly prepared for jump?  I would not be at
all surprised if part of the function of the grid was to cancel the
gravity due to the mass of the ship.  Gravity from external objects
can't be cancelled because you don't have a grid surrounding them.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 19:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Apr 14 18:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEHDCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Ortillery?
>
>I saw it in Dirtside, a game to go with Full Thrust.
>
>But I may have seen it in an SF novel before.

I think it's in Hammer's Slammers, by David Drake -- but it may even have
appeared in Gordon Dickson's Dorsai books.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 20:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sun Apr 14 19:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of malfunction?
References: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com> <20020414114830.26705bd4.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <DAV40aODv8h1ccBHuGI0000737d@hotmail.com>

> How would this kind of problem affect gauss/railgun type weapons?

<shrug>  Some earlier gauss weapon discussion seemed to indicate that GWs
would have to be pretty heavily shielded.  So maybe nothing.


> Not that any PCs would try bringing any of them through security, mind
> you...

Good heavens, no! <g>

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Sun Apr 14 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020413200302.009ee460@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CBA3FFD.3090802@yarranet.net.au>

Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll 
never get my Tigress at this rate.


Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 20:55:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Apr 14 19:55:06 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEHDCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Also, I'm wondering what happens if the fuel tanks adjoin
>crew spaces, as they do in so many deck plans.  Let's say you
>depressurize before combat, and close bulkhead doors.  One
[deletion]
>I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot
>of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and
>ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how
>it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only
>lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure -

I usually design deck plans with a fuel envelope around the ship.  That
accounts for the large number of fuel hits in High Guard.  I assume that the
fuel tank is divided into ten compartments of equal volume, so that each
fuel hit blows a hole in one or more compartments.

If you get both internal explosion and fuel hit results, the problem you
describe may occur.  In a High Guard fleet action, I wouldn't worry about
it, but I will take your suggestion to heart in the case of combat involving
a ship with the PCs, or a ship that they encounter.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 21:13:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Apr 14 20:13:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134634.3h0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
 <20414.134634.3h0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020415031235.2864d227.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> *Everything* generates its own gravity field. 
> 
> So ships have to correct for self gravity (and possibily for their
> internal gravity fields as well) anyway. A planet-ship would just have
> to make bigger corrections.

Semi-scientifical handwave follows:

The jump grid acts in a manner similiar to an electrical potential cage
(kind of like grounding the ship to a known neutral potential). Thus, the
ship itself doesn't disturb the jump drive's operation. Other objects,
however, aren't grounded in this fashion, and do disturb it, causing
misjumps etc.

Think of the disturbance as a lightning bolt hitting a metal cage (but
from the inside of the cage/ship). The discharge travels along the cage
(jump grid), but doesn't pass through it.

Comments?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 21:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr 14 20:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CBA3FFD.3090802@yarranet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20020415032922.5193B27A6E@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:

>Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll 
>never get my Tigress at this rate.

Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
level) per month!  <g>


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 22:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Apr 14 21:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>

On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 02:06:05 +0100, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
wrote:

>> Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
>> trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
>> to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external =
fields.
>
>Or, that misjumps are poorly thought out.
>
>They don't work if you use g, the gravitational field acceleration =
because
>it varies so much.
>They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
>themselves.
><SNIP>

Are you certain that traditional Traveller ships will create a tidal
force equivalent to a planet at 10 or even 100 diameters?  I was under
the impression that their mass wasn't sufficient to generate that
level of tidal force.  Further, I wouldn't think a body could exert
tidal force upon itself.

I would welcome anyone doing the math to demonstrate where the tidal
force associated with a planet's 10 diameter or 100 diameter limit
would fall for 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000 ton ships.
If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force upon
itself (and I do doubt that greatly), do these tidal gradients fall
outside a thus displacement sphere (the minimum surface area)?

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 22:26:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 14 21:26:09 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415032922.5193B27A6E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/14/02 8:29 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

> On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:
> 
>> Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll
>> never get my Tigress at this rate.
> 
> Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
> level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
> low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
> level) per month!  <g>

Which makes a steward a well paid individual indeed.  That's about
$140,160/year in adjusted dollars.  The Pilot is raking in about 210 grand a
year in 2002 US dollars.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 23:04:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 22:04:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> I would welcome anyone doing the math to demonstrate where the tidal
> force associated with a planet's 10 diameter or 100 diameter limit
> would fall for 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000 ton ships.

I'll assume that the 100D limit corresponds to a tidal tension
of 4e-13 s^-2, and hence that the 10D gradient is 4e-10 s^-2.

Let us suppose that each ship is spherical with an average density of
500 kg/m^3 (i.e. about 7 tonnes/dton).

Displacement  Diameter  Mass    10D limit  100D limit
(dtons)       (m)       (Mg)    (m)        (m)
100           13.8      685     61.1       611
1000          29.7      6850    131.7      1317
10000         64.0      68500   283.8      2838
100000        138       685000  611.4      6114

As you can see, the hull surface is far inside the 10D limit.

The formulae are pretty simple: mass = density * volume,
volume = pi D^3 / 6  for a sphere,
T = 2 G M / R^3.


> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force
> upon itself

You are.  This is very important in determining Roche's limit, for
example.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 23:15:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr 14 22:15:12 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/14/02 at 09:24 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 4/14/02 8:29 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

>> On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:
>> 
>>> Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll
>>> never get my Tigress at this rate.
>> 
>> Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
>> level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
>> low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
>> level) per month!  <g>

>Which makes a steward a well paid individual indeed.  That's about
>$140,160/year in adjusted dollars.  The Pilot is raking in about 210
>grand a year in 2002 US dollars.

Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
OTU games.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 23:49:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 22:49:11 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
> OTU games.

You don't think it makes sense that people from highly technologically
advanced societies are richer than modern-day Earthlings?  Especially
starship crew, who have to live in cramped conditions in a hostile
environment for weeks at a time?

Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
than bus drivers.  And people in the US generally get paid a lot more
than people in most other countries for comparable occupations.  So to
my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from high-tech
societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20414.230338.5J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 02:06:05 +0100, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
>>> trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
>>> to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external =
> fields.
>>
>>Or, that misjumps are poorly thought out.
>>
>>They don't work if you use g, the gravitational field acceleration =
> because
>>it varies so much.
>>They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
>>themselves.
>><SNIP>
>
> Are you certain that traditional Traveller ships will create a tidal
> force equivalent to a planet at 10 or even 100 diameters?  I was under
> the impression that their mass wasn't sufficient to generate that
> level of tidal force.  Further, I wouldn't think a body could exert
> tidal force upon itself.

No, but tidal force is a (effectively) a measure of how severely space
is curved. 

Acceleration due to gravity is the "slope" of the gravity well. Tidal
forces are the rate at which the slop changes.

> I would welcome anyone doing the math to demonstrate where the tidal
> force associated with a planet's 10 diameter or 100 diameter limit
> would fall for 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000 ton ships.
> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force upon
> itself (and I do doubt that greatly), do these tidal gradients fall
> outside a thus displacement sphere (the minimum surface area)?

The problem is that we need to know the *mass* of the ship, not the
displacement. A "100 ton" ship occupies the same *volume* as 100 tons
of liquid hydrogen. It may mass more or less.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:15:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:15:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEAIDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20414.225006.1X5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>> and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>> (assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>> todal forces are the same.
>
> (Tries it in Excel - ) Neat trick - hadn't seen this before - though I
> suspect it only works because I used a  uniform density, and since that
> won't be the case in the "real" (read:more random/realistic simulation of
> the) universe, then using tidal forces as a basis for misjumps will vary the
> rule either side of 100 diameters - for example, raise the density, and the
> 100 diameter limit drops to ninety something diameters.

Thing is, the density of "rocky" planets (as opposed to gas giants and
the iceballs you find in the outer system) is pretty uniform. 

And for gas giants and iceballs the "critical" tidal force level would
occur well *within* 100 diameters. 

So if there's any sort of safety factor built in to the "100 diameter"
rule, it'll work fine except in *really* oddball situations (say trying
to jump close to a *big* nickel-iron asteroid).

> But it doesn't really matter what causes the misjump effect. The fact
> remains that a given mass will cause some form of gravitational effect that
> invokes a misjump, and when you build a starship of that mass it should be
> affected by its own gravitational effect - and hence misjump.
>
> The maths/details don't really matter here - the concept is the thing. There
> should be an upper limit of some kind on starship size imposed by the
> misjump rule.

The details *do* matter, because the forces at the *hull* of even a
small ship will *exceed* those from a planet at 100 diameters. That's a
*unavoidable*. 

So a ship *has* to be able to compensate for the forces generated by
its own mass.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:15:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:15:55 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020415080419.A22995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20414.231128.0e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>  Liquid methane (liquified natural gas) might be a bit better than
>> water,
>
> Except that it is harder to store, more hazardous, no use in life
> support, less plentiful, and the waste (carbon) is much less useful.
> The same applies to ammonia.  It turns out that the best figure for
> hydrogen per unit volume (for common substances) is a highly
> concentrated ammonia solution.  The waste product from the refining
> process is an oxygen / nitrogen mix.  However it's much worse from a
> handling point of view, and you can't just suck it up from oceans or
> ice moonlets.

Actually, if you are out at the distance of saturn or farther, that
"ice" is apt to be a mix of ammonia, methane and water.

>> There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were topping
>> off with LNG or L-Hyd.
>
> No -- there's nothing for it to burn with if you're fuelling at an
> up-port dock, and even many planets have insufficient oxygen to
> support a flame.  There would be a cryogenic hazard though,
> particularly with LHyd.

Well, liquid hydrogen doesn't respond well to large inputs of energy
either. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:16:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <004d01c1e414$9dbef1a0$bdb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <20414.231508.7E7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: Leonard Erickson
>> It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
>> closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
>> travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
>> builds until it collapses the wormholes.
>
> No surprises there.  And of course, since the possibility to use them for
> FTL implies the possibility of using them for time travel, you can't use
> them for FTL, etc.

Not necessarily. 

There are lots of FTL trips you can take without having actually
transfer of things or information into someone's past. 

You just have to be careful. And it does make it easy to shut down a
wormhole (or a series of them) if you are desperate.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20414.231128.0e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415080419.A22995@freeman.little-possums.net> <20414.231128.0e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020415175248.A24097@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, if you are out at the distance of saturn or farther, that
> "ice" is apt to be a mix of ammonia, methane and water.

Yes, quite true.  Water is more prevalent further in, which I would
guess is where ships are more likely to want to go.  Most spacecraft
in my Traveller universe don't scoop gas giants for hydrogen unless
really desperate; they either slurp it up from oceans or grab it from
icy moons or other bodies.  Sometimes that means throwing away excess
methane and ammonia because they don't have appropriate type of
tankage to hold it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 07:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon Apr 15 06:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CBAD3C8.FEAB4008@attbi.com>


Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
> than bus drivers.  

Um, no they don't. Maybe half if the drivers aren't unionized.

> And people in the US generally get paid a lot more
> than people in most other countries for comparable occupations.  

Oh so true, even more so here in the Peoples Republic of California.

> So to
> my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from high-tech
> societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.

Yah, but like most Mariners today most of that wage comes from
overtime.

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 08:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Apr 15 07:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226C0@USCHM203>

Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term =
>"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
>  =20
> The origin is bugging me....

It definitely goes back to at least the mid to late 80s. I thought that I
might have first seen it in "Striker", which would be around 1981 or so, but
I could be mistaken. As someone else mentioned, the term might have appeared
in a sci-fi novel even earlier.

Brian L. Hurrel
ICS Analyst
EDS
(973) 682-5578


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CBAD3C8.FEAB4008@attbi.com>; from wmacdude@attbi.com on Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 06:21:12AM -0700
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net> <3CBAD3C8.FEAB4008@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20020415092359.A9480@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 06:21:12AM -0700, Evyn MacDude wrote:
> 
> > Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
> > than bus drivers.  

In Denver a driver starts at $12.xx and hour--let's say $13.  They
probably work less than 8 hours a day, but let's say they do.  That's
$104/day, or $540/wk.  Assuming two unpaid weeks of vacation a year,
that's $26,000/yr.  What's the starting rate for a submariner?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism
to decadence without touching civilization.               --John O'Hara

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <001e01c1e492$a431a680$1f9e15ac@warrior>

Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for those kinds of
speciallized skills... I mean how much does a Airliner pilot make now
days...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Little" <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 1:47 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?


> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> > Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
> > OTU games.
>
> You don't think it makes sense that people from highly technologically
> advanced societies are richer than modern-day Earthlings?  Especially
> starship crew, who have to live in cramped conditions in a hostile
> environment for weeks at a time?
>
> Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
> than bus drivers.  And people in the US generally get paid a lot more
> than people in most other countries for comparable occupations.  So to
> my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from high-tech
> societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.
>
>
> - Tim
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:43:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:43:06 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415092359.A9480@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEIJDKAA.tml@downport.com>

Or how about: what is the full-package cost for an experienced, commercial
submarine officer?

Hmm...

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Robert A. Uhl

In Denver a driver starts at $12.xx and hour--let's say $13.  They
probably work less than 8 hours a day, but let's say they do.  That's
$104/day, or $540/wk.  Assuming two unpaid weeks of vacation a year,
that's $26,000/yr.  What's the starting rate for a submariner?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:43:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:43:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

Maybe I'm just too scientifically dumb to follow the
conversation and am therefore saying the same thing
that has already been said, but...

Doesn't a starship (or Jump enabled planet for that
matter) exert gravity inward to it's center?  Isn't
that a different force than the planet or ship or GG
or Star that is closer than 100D?

I always thought the 100D gravity (or whatever) limit
as being more of a sheering force on the Jumping
vessel.  The vessels internal gravity (or whatever)
just isn't sheering on itself.

I'm not all that scientific in these areas, so I may
be wrong or completely invalid, but that is my
handwave. :)

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 10:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Mon Apr 15 09:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <F209D689cMhtTYDGGfA000197d5@hotmail.com>

One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
than they pay out in claims.

If you are a large enough organization, like a Mega-Corp,
then your insurable losses from any particular event should
be low enough (as a percentage of your total income) that it
will be a better option for you to absorb the losses as they
occur rather than continuously pay out insurance premiums.
You'll "self-insure", by keeping cash on hand enough to cover emergencies 
and accidents.  This is a good way for a large
enough company to do business, since this "cash on hand",
while it's on hand, can be earning for the company while
insurance premiums are gone.

If a catastrophe happens that destroys more value of your
megacorp assets than you would have been paying out in
insurance premiums, then chances are a war caused it - and
insurance companies are noted for not paying out claims
on damage caused by acts of war anyway.

So, you'll have two tiers of starship out there.  The
small or independent operator, who buys insurance (since a
single event will likely put him out of business otherwise).
The large corp, which may self-insure (that is, put money
aside to cover replacement, rather than pay out premiums).

If most of a starport's traffic is megacorp vessels,
then that starport won't have the insurance industry
involved as much with starport safety requirements.
The megacorp may have to post a bond of some sort, but
this bond may be a trivial formality if the megacorp
is in bed with the local starport authority...which they
probably will be, the megacorp likely built the bed,
washed the linens and hired the nubile young bedwarmers.

The small independent operator may have to post a bond
of sorts to gain access to a starport as well.  This bond
may well be posted by the independent operator's insurance
carrier on behalf of all the carrier's clients, with the
insurance carrier requiring operators to meet certain
safety guidelines to get coverage and access to the bond.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 10:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon Apr 15 09:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
Message-ID: <OF79538278.A1B0E48C-ON85256B9C.005AE8D9@pheaa.org>

has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a line at
wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.

thanks

Bill


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 10:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 09:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
Message-ID: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Here I go again. Please don't kill me  :-)

Right now I'm adding population generation to my script.

Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake  ;-)

"That's no moon"

I could see people turning a small moon into swiss cheese and living in
it, but at that point it will cease to be a moon and begin to be a space
station built using an asteroid hull.

Are there any good reasons not to use asteroids or small moons as hulls
for space stations? It would be a lot cheaper, and easier to expand (to a
certain limit). Just dig a few more tunnels.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204151701.ECX05851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Christopher Pratt says
>
>Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for 
>those kinds of speciallized skills... I mean how much does a 
>Airliner pilot make now days...
>
It's not as though a pilot today has to know as much as they 
used to.  Celestial navigation? LORAN? Dead reckoning? Nope.  
If you can use a GPS and know how to use the flight computer, 
it's just not as difficult as it used to be.  In fact, 
there's a lot to the handling of current aircraft that is 
done by the computer. It "helps" you, and you don't even 
notice that it's doing so.

Mostly, pilots are there to try and land the plane if 
something goes wrong.  There is little technical reason at 
this point why we could not design pilotless aircraft - in 
fact, there are compelling safety reasons to do so.  There 
are some FAA people I talked to who say that sometime in the 
next 20 years, they are going to try and fully automate 
everything from takeoff to landing (some aircraft are already 
capable of this).  At that point, it is questionable what you 
would need a pilot for.  He would be a glorified bus driver.

ObTrav:  What is a pilot, anyway?  Doesn't a pilot largely 
perform naviagational tasks?  In movies, yeah, fighter pilot 
city - just like WW II (image of Leia pointing and 
saying "star destroyer" -- good thing we spent all that money 
on radar when she can just point out the window).  But IMTU - 
well, there's an ability to takeoff and land, but in major 
starports, that could be automated.  Docking maneuvers?  Once 
again, probably safer if automated.  A pilot is -- really a 
coordinator -- making all of the ship's systems work 
together, and making decisions about where to go and how.

Like a navigator, with wings.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018890322.7515.ajackson@ping>

Jens Rydholm writes:
> Here I go again. Please don't kill me  :-)
> 
> Right now I'm adding population generation to my script.
> 
> Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
> than 100 miles to have a population?

Well, in habitats sure.  Thermal effects put a practical limit of around a
million people times diameter squared (and the moon will glow in infrared), 
but that's not terribly limiting.

> Are there any good reasons not to use asteroids or small moons as hulls
> for space stations? It would be a lot cheaper, and easier to expand (to a
> certain limit). Just dig a few more tunnels.

Well, you want a solid asteroid as opposed to a gravel pile, but given that
traveller has gravetics for artificial gravity, it's practical enough.  Doubt
that the cost differences would be huge, however.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <F68hRaUMNGCXWGmQyt500005973@hotmail.com>

From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>

     "In Denver a driver starts at $12.xx and hour--let's say $13.  They
probably work less than 8 hours a day, but let's say they do.  That's
$104/day, or $540/wk.  Assuming two unpaid weeks of vacation a year,
that's $26,000/yr.  What's the starting rate for a submariner?"


Mr. Uhl,

     Good point, and let's not forget benefits.  Most employers who  don't 
provide benefits tend to pay slightly higher salaries.  Please note, I'm 
talking about skilled positions in this context and not minimum wage 
Wal-Mart meat puppets.
     Give Mr. Kramden above a family medical policy, a dental plan, life 
insurance, and employer contributions to a 401(K) and/or pension plan, and 
his "earnings" increase by another $10,000/yr or so.
     The "March Harrier" and her ilk are not going to provide any of these 
"bennies" at all.  In order to compete in the same labor market as the 
mega-corps, smaller outfits will offer slightly higher salaries.
     The Wal-Marts of the future will still have the upper hand when it 
comes to hiring floor moppers however.(If we still waste human labor on such 
tasks that is.)  Just like today, Wal-Mart's inclusion of benefits in their 
compensation package will keep their supply of min-wage types bountiful as 
opposed to the corner "Quik-E-Mart."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <F55WYIgoFT3kMUVfNIJ0000272d@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>Mostly, pilots are there to try and land the plane if
>something goes wrong.  There is little technical reason at
>this point why we could not design pilotless aircraft - in
>fact, there are compelling safety reasons to do so.  There
>are some FAA people I talked to who say that sometime in the
>next 20 years, they are going to try and fully automate
>everything from takeoff to landing (some aircraft are already
>capable of this).  At that point, it is questionable what you
>would need a pilot for.  He would be a glorified bus driver.

I have read where the F-22 is described as the Air Force's "last" manned 
fighter.

Also, apparently the thing that replaced the SR71 is not manned.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204151758.ECZ05255@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>
>I have read where the F-22 is described as the Air 
>Force's "last" manned fighter.
>
>Also, apparently the thing that replaced the SR71 is not 
>manned.
>

In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your 
starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local 
stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au> <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>

Si wrote:

> Any update on T20?
>
> Does anyone know when we are likely to see the 'offending' article ?
>
> Si
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

oops,

I sincerely apologise to everyone involved in the T20 project.  My
forgetting to include a 'smiley' totally changed the emphasis of the
message and made it seem negative.  IT WAS NOT MEANT TO BE, as I am
really looking forward to T20.  for those of you who are not aware of
the Open Gaming licence, using the d20 system means that everything is
(to a significant degree) interchangeable.  This means that (with only a
little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.

:-)

Si




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <F209D689cMhtTYDGGfA000197d5@hotmail.com>
References: <F209D689cMhtTYDGGfA000197d5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020415201231.2a376fbc.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Walt Smith wrote:
> One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
> only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
> than they pay out in claims.
<snip>

A very nice post indeed. I don't really have anything to add, but I'll
just note that the post didn't disappear in the dreaded black hole of
quality. It was archived on my harddrive  :-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
In-Reply-To: <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
 <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net> <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <20020415201431.3145d14b.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Si wrote:
> little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
> them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
> terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.

Kind of like GURPS  ;-)

I am also just kidding. I probably won't purchase the main T20 book, but
one can never have too much background material  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
Message-ID: <OF66D276C9.2DAD1A83-ON85256B9C.006477EE@pheaa.org>





<snip>
> little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
> them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
> terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.
</snip>

Im really looking forward to this. i got an order in at my FLGS already 8)

Bill






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
Message-ID: <200204151824.EDB00561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm just hoping for a better skill resolution system (hoping 
for a better combat system may be a forlorn one).
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <200204151824.EDB00561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB1C87.D6550A25@virgin.net>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> I'm just hoping for a better skill resolution system (hoping
> for a better combat system may be a forlorn one).
> ________________
> "Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

The skill systems should be (AFAIK) similar to that of 3e.  Namely a
skill modifier is equal to the number of ranks you have bought in a
skill plus a modifier based upon the skills determining characteristic.

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An interesting product - anything like this in Traveller?
References: <200204141322.EAV00067@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB1D32.5000002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> In any ship or vehicle design sequence, is there anything 
> like this?  It seems to be an internal add-on that reduces 
> the potential for internal explosions.
> 
> http://www.blastgard.net/outlook.asp

This is probably part of the composite hull material, which does start 
to appear at TL8-9...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:35:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:35:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a
 starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV14LEGhUOjO0L6WkQ00004c57@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020411151634.0209ac08@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020415142902.020c6250@mail.qrc.com>

At 09:40 AM 4/13/2002, Texas Redshift wrote:
>After scrying using the Orb of Google, it appears that we may both mean the
>Law of Finds rather than salvage.

Probably; I'm not a lawyer (and only occasionally play one on the Internet).

>In many cases, this compensation is such that simply giving the salvor 
>salvaged property is the best way to straighten things out.

And as a gaming rule of thumb, it'll certainly do.

>Note also that special cases seem to apply to historical shipwrecks and
>military vessels.

Yes; IMTU I'd make the call that military shipwrecks remain Imperial 
property (and thus might be salvaged by the Imperium or it's agents and 
contractors, but not by private groups), and historical wrecks (including 
war graves, memorials, etc.) can be so designated by a proclamation from 
the appropriate nobility.

Thanks for the links!

   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 12:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
References: <20413.120658.7M5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB24B3.8020600@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Well, back in the late 60s/early 70s, I used to grab the Air Force
> equivalent ("in flight meal packs") at the commissary to take on Boy
> Scout camping trips. Basicly, we used them for dinner on Friday night
> when we were tired after setting up camp, and didn't feel much like
> putting a lot of effort into cooking. 

My roommate used to get those by the case at the PX, most of them 
weren't bad by starving college student, top ramen and tuna surprise 
standards.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Backwater areas in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <3C90ACCA.20039.9DF165@localhost>
Message-ID: <20415.121345.7z0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 13 Mar 2002 at 14:47, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > Another option might be hypervelocity rockets with a penetrator.
>> > Something the size of a LAW or AT-4 that accelerates up to 2000+
>> > meters per second in the tube and with a DU penetrator. 
>> 
>> Eek! Do you have any idea what sort of rocket motor you are talking
>> about here? 
>> 
>> Work out the acceleration required, just for starters. 
>> 
>> The backblast will be nasty, and a cracked fuel grain will take out the
>> person firing the rocket.
>
> The NZ Air Force used to (when we still had a strike wing) use Canadian 
> 120mm rockets that had a tungsten carbide penetrator like a tank gun 
> round as their warhead. IIRC they have a similar velocity to that of a 
> tank gun and, as the body stayed attached, more mass. We used them for 
> anti-shipping and they'd no nasty things to a frigate from barely on 
> the horizon. I think the SOP was to fly in at 10,000 feet until the 
> ship appeared over the horizon, fire, then dive back under the horizon 
> before the SAMs got to you.
>
> Therefore the basic idea is feasible at TL7-8, it's just a matter of 
> getting the thing small enough for a man to carry. As for fuel grain 
> cracks - thet's an issue with any rocket or missile, so why make an 
> issue of it for this one? The (likely) higher internal pressure?

A blast that will "inconvenience" a jet fighter will make hamburger out
of an infantryman. And ordnance attached to aircraft gets handled a
*lot* more gently than anything a soldier is packing around in combat.

Also, as noted elsewhere, I can just about guarantee that the
antishipping missile *didn't* reach full velocity in less than 100
meters, much less less than *2* meters.

The big objection is to the missile reaching full velocity by the time
it exits the launch tube. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:01:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:01:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20415.122550.9R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Maybe I'm just too scientifically dumb to follow the
> conversation and am therefore saying the same thing
> that has already been said, but...
>
> Doesn't a starship (or Jump enabled planet for that
> matter) exert gravity inward to it's center?  Isn't
> that a different force than the planet or ship or GG
> or Star that is closer than 100D?

Nope. Or at least not in a simple manner.

The gravitational forces inside a hollow sphere *cancel*. For other
shapes, you need a lot of calculus to figure what sort of forces you get.

Inside a solid sphere, of uniform density, you get the interesting
result that the force of gravity is a *maximum* at the surface and
drops *linearly* to zero at the center.

For one of varying density, where the density varies in spherical
"layers", it's a bit weirder, but you can figure it out by just taking
the mass of the solid sphere that's closer to the center than you are.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:01:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:01:56 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020415175248.A24097@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20415.124737.8e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Actually, if you are out at the distance of saturn or farther, that
>> "ice" is apt to be a mix of ammonia, methane and water.
>
> Yes, quite true.  Water is more prevalent further in, which I would
> guess is where ships are more likely to want to go.  Most spacecraft
> in my Traveller universe don't scoop gas giants for hydrogen unless
> really desperate; they either slurp it up from oceans or grab it from
> icy moons or other bodies.  Sometimes that means throwing away excess
> methane and ammonia because they don't have appropriate type of
> tankage to hold it.

If you aren't scooping from a gas giant, you don't *need* tankage.
Except for a rather small amount to hold stuff that you are feeding
thru the systems that "crack" the hydrogen out of them.

Both methane and ammonia will burn with oxygen. So you crack some water
(thermally or via electrolysis) and use the oxygen to burn the methane
and ammonia to N2, H20 & CO2. You condense the H20 and crack it to get
back the oxygen. The CO2 and N2 get either discrard or fed into the
life support system's atomosphere reprocessing section. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:02:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:02:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Here I go again. Please don't kill me  :-)
>
> Right now I'm adding population generation to my script.
>
> Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
> than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
> become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
> of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake  ;-)
>
> "That's no moon"
>
> I could see people turning a small moon into swiss cheese and living in
> it, but at that point it will cease to be a moon and begin to be a space
> station built using an asteroid hull.

Okay that six mile (I assume diameter, if it's radius, multiply all
areas below by 4) rockball has a surface area of just over 3 billion
square feet. Equivalent to a square 10.6 miles on a side. That's a
*lot* bigger than Manhattan.

Which gives each of those 10,000 people roughly 315,000 square feet. Or
an area about 560 feet square.  That's a couple of city blocks!

Say it's 50,000. That reduces things to 63,000 squae feet apiece. An
area only 250 feet square.

Allow burrowing only a few hundred feet into the surface, and the
amount of space gets positively *obscene*. And it's still a moon or
asteroid, not a station with an asteroid hull.

Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
buildings and the like.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
Message-ID: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>

--part1_a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
> than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
> become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
> of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake  ;-)

I would say that isn't really a problem, for reasons that others have gone
into in plenty of detail.

One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of rock in 
a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons of inhabited 
planets,
a few large bodies in any given planetoid belt, maybe.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
<BR>&gt; than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
<BR>&gt; become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
<BR>&gt; of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake &nbsp;;-)
<BR>
<BR>I would say that isn't really a problem, for reasons that others have gone
<BR>into in plenty of detail.
<BR>
<BR>One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of rock in 
<BR>a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons of inhabited planets,
<BR>a few large bodies in any given planetoid belt, maybe.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020415190106.CE88227B71@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB4144.FF9D2823@earthlink.net>

John T. Kwon
> 
> 
> In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?

Yes. It's called "TL17". TL14 for those playing GT.

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <200204151758.ECZ05255@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E09124.3A634%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?

Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right when the user no
longer understands what's going on behind the 'curtain'.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8e0f93f2f0d@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>todal forces are the same.

A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the 
size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity 
in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal 
gradient.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:46:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:46:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020416074539.A25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
> I always thought the 100D gravity (or whatever) limit as being more
> of a sheering force on the Jumping vessel.  The vessels internal
> gravity (or whatever) just isn't sheering on itself.

Well, gravitational fields in empty space exert a combination of
stretching and compressional tides, not shearing.  Once you look at
the field *inside* some point of a body, it is a sum of the
compressional/stretching due to external fields, with a pure
compressional tide due to local density.

The simplest case is the interior of a sphere of uniform density.  In
that case, *every* point within the sphere has an isotropic and
homogeneous compression tide.  The strength is independent of location
within the sphere, and also independent of the size of the sphere.
(The mechanical pressure does vary with position and size however)

Grossly non-uniform and asymmetric bodies like starships have tidal
gradients that are horribly 'lumpy' throughout and difficult to plug
into an equation :/  You can still do the maths, but you need a
computer to actually add up all the numbers.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>
References: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020416080223.B25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of
> rock in a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons
> of inhabited planets, a few large bodies in any given planetoid
> belt, maybe.

I might go that far in a setting where a spacefaring civilization had
been confined to a single star system for *ages*.  Like the Moties,
for example.  The Imperium has too much room to move, and too low a
population for a 10km cometary body in the inner Oort cloud to look in
the least attractive as a home if there are any alternatives.

But I'd get a computer to do the actual number-crunching, and get
statistical features rather than individual figures.  Just things like
the probability that a given body of certain diameter, location, and
composition is inhabited, and by how many if so.  e.g. "1.3 trillion
living in asteroids of 5 km diameter or less in the inner belt", that
sort of thing.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20415.124737.8e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415175248.A24097@freeman.little-possums.net> <20415.124737.8e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020416081241.C25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Both methane and ammonia will burn with oxygen. So you crack some water
> (thermally or via electrolysis) and use the oxygen to burn the methane
> and ammonia to N2, H20 & CO2. You condense the H20 and crack it to get
> back the oxygen. The CO2 and N2 get either discrard or fed into the
> life support system's atomosphere reprocessing section. 

I don't see what I get from this.

IMTU, there is only a small tank capable of holding LHyd with all the
associated cryogenic systems, ultralow temperature pumps and such
expensive stuff.  It primarily feeds the jump drive when entering
jump.  The rest of the fuel space is designed to hold water which I
can slowly refine using a fuel processor during jump.

So the limit on how much fuel I can hold is how much oxygen is
available to bind the hydrogen into water for my large (and cheap)
tanks.  Discarding CO2 from burning methane is hence worse than just
throwing away the methane.  I might extract some nitrogen from the
ammonia to replenish any atmosphere losses, but that's about it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020416082357.D25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

[Jens wrote:]
> > I could see people turning a small moon into swiss cheese and living in
> > it, but at that point it will cease to be a moon and begin to be a space
> > station built using an asteroid hull.

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
> things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
> buildings and the like.

You can say that again!  A moon of 50 mile diameter has a volume of
about 20 trillion dtons.  Suppose the moon was indeed turned in "swiss
cheese".  Even if only 1% of the space was living quarters, that's
still 200 billion dtons.  Just think how many staterooms you could fit
into that!  Heck, give every single person 2000 cubic metres in that
1% volume (a rather large house, and that's per person, not per
family) and you've still got room for over a billion people.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>; from JFZeigler@aol.com on Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 04:10:04PM -0400
References: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020415163142.B9543@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 04:10:04PM -0400, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> 
> One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of
> rock in a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons
> of inhabited planets, a few large bodies in any given planetoid
> belt, maybe.

I dunno.  If it _can_ be inhabited, it _may_ be inhabited, and good
random tables should reflect this.

I know that when I finally get the GT world generation done for
travlib that it's going to generate population for every world
(i.e. belt, terrestrial planet and moon).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I read [.doc files] with 'rm.'  All you lose is the Microsoft-specific
font selections, the macro viruses and the luser babblings.
                                      --Gary `Wolf' Barnes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <OF66D276C9.2DAD1A83-ON85256B9C.006477EE@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <007401c1e4cf$89095d20$5d9393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Im really looking forward to this. i got an order in at my FLGS already 8)
>
> Bill
>

Then you'll be pleased to learn that I'm working through the final-ish edit
on the "offending article" right now.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:52:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:52:05 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au> <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net> <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <008901c1e4cf$efbbccb0$5d9393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> I sincerely apologise to everyone involved in the T20 project.  My
> forgetting to include a 'smiley' totally changed the emphasis of the
> message and made it seem negative.  IT WAS NOT MEANT TO BE, as I am
> really looking forward to T20.  for those of you who are not aware of
> the Open Gaming licence, using the d20 system means that everything is
> (to a significant degree) interchangeable.  This means that (with only a
> little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
> them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
> terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.

Heh. I must have missed the original post - gone back and found it now - so
I've decided to be mildly (and retrospectively) annoyed - just to make it
worth your time in writing the apology. (grin).

We're in final preparation now. Layout is still to do, but more or less, we
have a product. I'm guessing weeks now.

Regards

MJD




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 17:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr 15 16:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: open source rpg development
Message-ID: <20020415233039.66503.qmail@web11304.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I do wish to point out who is affected by an effort
that results in taking market share from professional
game designers.  Regardless of their original intent. 
It will be the folks like Loren who live on a
shoestring instead of folks like Bill Gates who
already has more money than he has a purpose for.
END QUOTE

But then it could be argued that any one new who has
an original RPG shouldn't publish (openly or
commercially) because it would take market share from
the already established publihers. Now that idea is
ridiculous. However it wouldn't be moral to make a
open source version of Trav, because then you would be
stealing the ideas of people who need them to make a
living. I however feel that if you want to make a new
original RPG you should go ahead. It's a capatilist
society and if you can't compete against FAR competion
than no one is going to subsidise you (unless you have
friend's in government). I do think people like Loren
do deserve our support though (even though I wouldn't
touch GURPS with a ten foot pole)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 17:41:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 16:41:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Changes to First In rules
In-Reply-To: <20020316213935.3edca0b2.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <005001c1e4d7$00aec5c0$0f01a8c0@terry>

> When working on my program for First In star system generation (see my
> other recent post), I decided to make a few minor changes to the way
the
> rules work. Do the changes below sound reasonable?

I was just looking this over to add to mine and realized there is a
problem with your ratios. A standard sector has stellar systems much
more often than your ratios. It looks like your average assumes 200
systems per sector and that is very low for standard. A sector has 32x40
or 1280 hexes and standard is a 1/2 chance per hex for an average of
640. 
 
> 1) A primary star has a 1/500 chance of being a supergiant. This gives
one
> supergiant per 2.5 sectors (of standard stellar density).

Average of 1.28 per sector, limit of one please!
 
> 2) A primary star has a 1/1500 chance of being a type O star,
resulting in
> one type O star per 7.5 sectors.

Average of one per 2.3 sectors.

> 3) A primary star has a 1/500 chance of being a type B star, resulting
in
> one type B star per 2.5 sectors.

Average of 1.28 per sector. 
 
Regards,

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204160006.EDL06288@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right 
>when the user no longer understands what's going on behind 
>the 'curtain'.
>
And how many users know what's going on behind the scenes in 
their browser?  Why is AOL so popular?  Because most people 
don't know and don't care what goes on behind the curtain.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I remember thinking one time when I was staring down
the barrel of a .45, "thank God he does not have a
knife."  Getting penetrated by a knife is 
somehow terrifying, and it also gives the wielder
credible non-lethal options.  I think there have been
several instances in recent times when 
bayonet charges have routed the enemy, even if no one
actually got stabbed. A bayonet would be vital for
handling prisoners, and possibly even reluctant 
heroes.  ;)
END QUOTE

Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
to see is a cloud of dust ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020415.203959.-193407.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

What, because you have dust in your veins instead of blood?  ;-)



                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB75B0.45698CC5@premier.net>


James Ramsay wrote:
> 
> QUOTE
> I remember thinking one time when I was staring down
> the barrel of a .45, "thank God he does not have a
> knife."  Getting penetrated by a knife is
> somehow terrifying, and it also gives the wielder
> credible non-lethal options.  I think there have been
> several instances in recent times when
> bayonet charges have routed the enemy, even if no one
> actually got stabbed. A bayonet would be vital for
> handling prisoners, and possibly even reluctant
> heroes.  ;)
> END QUOTE
> 
> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

And that, sir, is why armies still issue bayonets.... ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020415230829.93725.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
The person who deserves the biggest rocket up the arse
in "Aliens" (military-wise) is the pilot of the
dropship. Though she was originally told that the LZ
had been secured, she'd never make a Traveller-PC
group.
END QUOTE

Thats a bit unfair, it was spunkmeyer who went to take
a piss out side. And I think even recon would get
rattled after the nest encounter. Another thing to
consider is that according to the background material
most of the marines where conscripts. Drake and
Vasquez where convicted criminals and thier sentance
was life in the marines! Now what does that tell you
about the casualty rate of the USCM? No wonder they
only had one squad on a big arse ship like the sulaco!

On a tangent I watched Aliens and Star Wars the other
day and noticed that both use the same type of headset
comunicators. Oh and a funny thing here in Australia,
three of our sailors where arrested for damaging earth
moving equipment! And these people are protecting our
waters?

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 19:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 18:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020416031009.2bda525e.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
> things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
> buildings and the like.

Thank you for hitting me with the "stupid" stick for the second time in
the last days, Leonard  :-)

I'll crawl back into my dark corner now.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 20:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 19:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CT/Book 5 question
Message-ID: <200204160206.EDP04153@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

OK.  Actually a Book 5 question.  Ship has partial 
streamlining. Under the rules, it can do gas giant 
refueling.  If it can move through an upper atmosphere like 
that (presumably at some velocity - after all, we don't want 
to spiral in), can you land such a ship on a world with a 
standard atmosphere?

How does an air/raft do it?  1-G acceleration.  You're riding 
in a vehicle about the size of a HMMWV with the top down.

Feel that wind in your hair...

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 21:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 15 20:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>; from quakers_united@yahoo.com.au on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:36:12AM +1000
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:36:12AM +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
> 
> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

Unless he's the faster...

That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
convincing opposing argument:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Yes, we will want simultaneous translators...No, not when the PM meets
the leaders of the English-speaking nations...Yes, the English-speaking
nations can be said to include the United States.
          --Bernard Wooley, `Yes, Prime Minister'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 22:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon Apr 15 21:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CT/Book 5 question
References: <200204160206.EDP04153@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB9B7E.656C5156@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> OK.  Actually a Book 5 question.  Ship has partial
> streamlining. Under the rules, it can do gas giant
> refueling.  If it can move through an upper atmosphere like
> that (presumably at some velocity - after all, we don't want
> to spiral in), can you land such a ship on a world with a
> standard atmosphere?
>
> How does an air/raft do it?  1-G acceleration.  You're riding
> in a vehicle about the size of a HMMWV with the top down.
>
> Feel that wind in your hair...
>
> ________________
> "Imposed armistices . . . artificially
> freeze conflict and perpetuate a state
> of war indefinitely by shielding the
> weaker side from the consequences of
> refusing to make concessions for peace."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Streamlined ships are trans atmospheric. Air rafts take a number of
hours equal to the UPP size of the planet to orbit/deorbit.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:36:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:36:45 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020416064248.CB2DF279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/15/02 at 03:47 PM,  Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> said:

>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>> Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
>> OTU games.

>You don't think it makes sense that people from highly
>technologically advanced societies are richer than modern-day
>Earthlings?  Especially starship crew, who have to live in cramped
>conditions in a hostile environment for weeks at a time?

No, I don't.  

>Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot
>more than bus drivers.  And people in the US generally get paid a lot
>more than people in most other countries for comparable occupations. 
>So to my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from
>high-tech societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.

The crews of free traders *are* the truck drivers and mechanics of the
TU, and that's how they should be paid. That's my opinion, and how it
works IMTU, YTUMV.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:37:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:37:16 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <001e01c1e492$a431a680$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/15/02 at 11:31 AM,  Christopher Pratt <cdpratt@gatecom.com>
said:

>Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for those
>kinds of speciallized skills... I mean how much does a Airliner pilot
>make now days...

Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:39:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:39:10 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <OF4155728C.34ECCD82-ONCA256B9D.00183047@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Eris opined:
>>> On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:
>>> 
>>>> Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll
>>>> never get my Tigress at this rate.
>>> 
>>> Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
>>> level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
>>> low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
>>> level) per month!  <g>
>
>>Which makes a steward a well paid individual indeed.  That's about
>>$140,160/year in adjusted dollars.  The Pilot is raking in about 210
>>grand a year in 2002 US dollars.
>
>Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
>OTU games.

I don't see much of a problem with it. It is in line with - but not 
excessively over-the-top - the idea that the more high-tech a society, the 
more resources each individual in society has to "spend". All of us on the 
TML, for instance, would be considered tremendously wealthy by folks who 
lived a hundred years ago, let alone when compared to peasants living back 
in the days of William the Conqueror.

Star Trek, for example, portrays this is a nicely understated way by 
removing the tokens of money, but then allowing crewmembers to book time 
on the holodeck, or use the replicator. Remember when Harry 
I've-gone-blank-on-his-surname (Voyager's navigator) decided to forgo his 
replicated meal allowance (and eat Neelix's food! Paris: "Hair? I assume 
that's just an expression?" Neelix: "No!") in order to replicate a violin? 
That's the sort of magical transformation that all those alchemists dreamt 
about! (Actually, they would have been happy with just a lump of gold, but 
you get my drift... ;-).

Originally (in 1977), Marc set 1 credit equal to US$1 - at least, on the 
interstellar beer ratio. I believe that may have been modified in the 
early '80's to Cr 1 = US$2. Then you have the effects of those 
local-vs-Imperial credit exchange rate tables (one appears in an early 
JTAS, for instance) which up's the ante again. In short, a pilot paid 
wages in Imperial credits, who then lands on a backwater world, is in a 
similar situation to a modern-day pilot (paid in, say UK pounds or US $$ - 
not AU$, sorry Phill! ;-) who lands in Rwanda. Or Zimbabwe. Or even India. 
He can lord in about and spend all that cash, or can save it up for his 
time back home on that high-tech homeworld where _one_ air/raft costs 
Cr400,000.

Don't sweat it - it's not _that_ hard to get rid of PC's money. I'm sure 
Eris only gave his PBeM players a ship in order to give them a big black 
money-pit... Just make them keep track of everything. I've had one player 
in my game saying the the others, "I know we're under attack, but these 
missiles are Cr10,000 _each_! Do you know how much this missile salvo is 
going to cost us??" To which I, as DM, coached, "Andrew, you're playing a 
_male_ Aslan. WHO CARES how much those missiles cost, just FIRE!!" As a 
large (toothy ;-) grin appeared from behind his beard, the others realised 
the monetary implications of a trigger-happy gunner. This led nicely to 
the party arguing about how many missiles they were going to "waste" on 
defence, while all the while the nasty pirate was allowed to continue 
lasering away their several-orders-of-magnitude-more-expensive superdense 
hull plating!!  ;-)

Ah, me! Players are good at shooting themselves in the foot. You just have 
to get creative when helping them to aim. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:40:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:40:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
Message-ID: <OFF290291A.CB37BC25-ONCA256B9D.0017EFD0@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>>Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
>>"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
>>
>> The origin is bugging me....
>
>It definitely goes back to at least the mid to late 80s. I thought that I
>might have first seen it in "Striker", which would be around 1981 or so, 
but
>I could be mistaken.

You are not mistaken. It's mentioned in Striker Book 2, part of the 
"Integrating with Traveller" section.

My bet is that it goes back to "Starship Troopers".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:43:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:43:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com> <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>

On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:02:50 +1000, Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

>I'll assume that the 100D limit corresponds to a tidal tension
>of 4e-13 s^-2, and hence that the 10D gradient is 4e-10 s^-2.
>
>Let us suppose that each ship is spherical with an average density of
>500 kg/m^3 (i.e. about 7 tonnes/dton).

I.e., about half that of an equal volume of water.  This is probably a
bit low on the density for most Traveller ships, but it is certainly
not too far off the mark for smaller ships which are capable of ocean
refueling.

>Displacement  Diameter  Mass    10D limit  100D limit
>(dtons)       (m)       (Mg)    (m)        (m)
>100           13.8      685     61.1       611
>1000          29.7      6850    131.7      1317
>10000         64.0      68500   283.8      2838
>100000        138       685000  611.4      6114
>
>As you can see, the hull surface is far inside the 10D limit.
>
>The formulae are pretty simple: mass =3D density * volume,
>volume =3D pi D^3 / 6  for a sphere,
>T =3D 2 G M / R^3.

Thanks for providing the formulas in addition to doing the table.
This certainly is useful for an earlier discussion regarding Jump
Masking (consult the archives if you are curious).

>JR Holmes wrote:
>> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force
>> upon itself
>
>You are.  This is very important in determining Roche's limit, for
>example.

I remain unconvinced in this regard.  "Roche's Limit is the distance
from a planet inside which a satellite will be torn apart by tidal
forces." (from http://www.cvc.org/astronomy/roche_limit.htm) or
"Roche's Limit, which is the distance from a planet at which the
planet's tidal force on a satellite (tending to stretch apart) is
equal to the satellite's self-gravity (tending to hold it together)."
(from http://utrao.as.utexas.edu/ast301/log/log22.html)

As per the above, Roche's Limit is where these tidal forces (a
tensional force) equal the compressional forces of an object's own
gravity.  But this is in regard to the tidal forces exerted _with
regard to another body_.  Without the other body, no tidal force.

It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In another
of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional and
compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive me if
I am interpreting you incorrectly).  I believe you are in error in
this regard.  As per the above, the compressional forces are due to
the object's self-gravity and only the tensional forces are due to the
influence of another body and therefore are tidal forces.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:43:58 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8E09124.3A634%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEKDHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Tod Glenn wrote :
> on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> > In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> > starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> > stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
>
> Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.
> Right when the user no longer understands what's going
> on behind the 'curtain'.

That happens at TL 6 for most people.

How many people actually understand how even an internal
combustion engine works, let alone a computer ?

IME, the vast majority of people (i.e people who don't
subscribe to the TML) effectively consider anything beyond
simple mechanical machines "magic".

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:44:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:44:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
(of radiation effects on fertility)
> Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
> men, if you prefer)?

Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
the testis to ionising radiation.

Larsen Whipsnade wrote :-
> GURPS, in Compendium II, handles this in the following manner.
> If a female has a lifetime dose of 250 rads, her offspring, and
> any problems they may have, are entirely at the GM's discretion.
There probably won't be any offspring (permanent sterility in 75%).

> Realistic?  Yes.
Nah, in GURPS it's usually an excuse for the GM to introduce Weird
Mutant Powers (TM) <g>


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:45:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:45:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.225006.1X5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi,

> Thing is, the density of "rocky" planets (as opposed to gas giants and
> the iceballs you find in the outer system) is pretty uniform.

For Mercury (5.43), Venus (5.24) and Earth (5.52), yes.
For Mars (3.93), any Jovian moon (some of which are considered "rocky", e.g.
Io, at 3.53), and a few others, no.
Personally, I'd reckon that density can vary considerably even for rocky
worlds, say from 3.0 to nearly 7.8 (almost totally iron) or 8.5+ (almost
totally nickel).

> So if there's any sort of safety factor built in to the "100 diameter"
> rule, it'll work fine except in *really* oddball situations (say trying
> to jump close to a *big* nickel-iron asteroid).

So ... if I had a planet with an extremely large Ni-Fe core, and a higher
mean density as a result, say towards 6.5 or 7.0, then the 100D rule would
not be good enough. Another hazard for exploring uncharted systems, I guess.

> The details *do* matter, because the forces at the *hull* of even a
> small ship will *exceed* those from a planet at 100 diameters. That's a
> *unavoidable*.

Leonard, please don't emphasise words with asterisks. It just makes things
harder to read and comes over patronising, even if that's not intended.

*Try* *reading* *this* *sentence* *to* *see* *what* *I* *mean*.

Also, if we have to handwave away the tidal gradient due to the ship's hull,
then I'd argue that the tidal gradient is not the principal factor in a
misjump, no matter how well the figures fit.

> So a ship *has* to be able to compensate for the forces generated by
> its own mass.

Having said that, if that's the case, then maybe that's where all the Jump
Fuel goes - maybe.

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:49:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:49:13 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>

I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
_recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.

Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
like you are too valuable to lose.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:50:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:50:20 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OF79538278.A1B0E48C-ON85256B9C.005AE8D9@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBC25E4.2080505@magpiesnest.co.uk>

William Lane wrote:

> has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a line at
> wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.
> 
Certainly have Bill (though now I tend to use JAXP, which is based around Xerces but has differences). Send me your questions and I will do my best to answer them for you.



-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:56:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:56:07 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW! I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <F165K8onzvMMl6Dcu4n00003775@hotmail.com>

Congratulations, Jeff!  Thanks for *your* work!


>From: Jeff Zeitlin <editor@freelancetraveller.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
>Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 07:23:41 -0400
>
>I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
>protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
>Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
>flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
>never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
>_recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
>
>Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
>allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
>more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
>you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
>like you are too valuable to lose.
>
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
>Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
>http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
>http://www.freelancetraveller.com
>http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
>editor@freelancetraveller.com
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
Message-ID: <OF8A9C8510.72B94182-ON85256B9D.004D468D@pheaa.org>








>> has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a line at
>> wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.

>Certainly have Bill (though now I tend to use JAXP, which is based around
Xerces but has differences). Send me your >questions and I will do my best
to answer them for you.


Here is what im doing im developing a java application that reads an xml
file and parses it into 3 seperate COBOL data files. the cobol group
eventually runs their apps and uses the data from these flat files. once
they are through they send them back to me. i then want to parse these 3
files into a single new xml file.

i have gotten to where i am creating the new document. i can append
children on it ect.. ect..

however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to actually be
written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im new to XML and Xerces
is not the best documented thing i have ever worked with. i was looking at
maybe using the serializer to send a outPutStream through it. but it would
seem to me that xerces should have a way of building this document out on
the drive.

but maybe im just wishful thinking 8P

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:17:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RULES - Skill Lvl. 0
Message-ID: <12414.1018957560@www34.gmx.net>

Hello Together,

I'm kind of new to actually play Megatraveller. Now I've encountered a
problem regarding 'Skill-Level-0-serves-as-Level-minus-1-Skills'. My Problem is :
If you have a Skill at Level 0 (e.g. Grav Vehicle-0), and this Skill 'serves
as' another Skill at Level minus 1 (Grav Vehicle serves as Grav Belt -1), at
which Level do I execute the 'served' Skill (Grav Belt)?
at : Level -1 (-> giving a negative DM of 1)?
at : Level 0 (-> minimum Skill-Level is allways 0)?
or not at all (-> there are no 'served' Skills for Level-0-Skills)?

Is there an official rule (which I did not find - sorry), or any other
sollutions?

Thank you, Sebastian

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>

Stephen Tempest posts:
>Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =20

Shouldnt the hull code be Z? I though Y was for 1,000,000 to 
1,999,999. Z was for anything above that. 

>MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
Architects fees? Anyone?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:51:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:51:14 2002
Subject: [TML] List outtage
Message-ID: <B8E1855D.3A929%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all,

Owing to an uncheduled outage on the part of my ISP, the mailing list hosted
at TravellerCentral.com were unavailable from about 11pm last night (PST)
until early this morning.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Tod
-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Marsh)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
Message-ID: <F58wAeRaNgEpTX5V3Gy00000309@hotmail.com>

I do not have my LBB in front of me; I thought the term was first used in 
Book 4 either with the illustration of the Forward Observer or in the Iron 
Mongery section. This would have well preceded Striker. Can anyone confirm 
this? (I agree it was prob. lifted from some fiction)


>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
>Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 16:17:04 +1000
>
>Dear Folks -
>
> >>Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> >>"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
> >>
> >> The origin is bugging me....
> >
> >It definitely goes back to at least the mid to late 80s. I thought that I
> >might have first seen it in "Striker", which would be around 1981 or so,
>but
> >I could be mistaken.
>
>You are not mistaken. It's mentioned in Striker Book 2, part of the
>"Integrating with Traveller" section.
>
>My bet is that it goes back to "Starship Troopers".
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014401c1e55a$62849d00$1f9e15ac@warrior>

hmm... good point... both the part about the PC scrapping for cash, and the
IYTU justification for it...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 12:58 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?


> On 04/15/02 at 11:31 AM,  Christopher Pratt <cdpratt@gatecom.com>
> said:
>
> >Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for those
> >kinds of speciallized skills... I mean how much does a Airliner pilot
> >make now days...
>
> Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
> skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
> They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
> thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
> in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
> living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.
>
> Eris
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
In-Reply-To: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075705.009f3cf0@mindspring.com>

At 07:23 AM 4/16/02 -0400, you wrote:

>I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
>protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
>Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
>flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
>never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
>_recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
>
>Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
>allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
>more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
>you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
>like you are too valuable to lose.

Hey, you earned it!

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
end of the world is fast approaching."
- Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:26:28 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8E09124.3A634%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204151758.ECZ05255@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>

At 02:16 PM 4/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>
> > In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> > starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> > stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
>
>Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right when the user no
>longer understands what's going on behind the 'curtain'.

Hell, for me that's today!  I can use my comp[uter, but for all I know, 
this beige box is actually home to a tribe of magic pixes.

There was a great SF story written years ago, might even have been golden 
age, about a bunch of scientists who build a time machine. They can grab 
one person from the future.  They get an ad executive.  Sure there are 
cancer curesm flying cars, etc, but he just knows how to use them, not how 
they work.

I still find it amazing and rather magical that this little bit of dreck 
will be read by people on the other side of the planet (hi Jens and Hans!) 
I sort of understand that it will be shuffled around by a lot of computers 
that do that sort of thing, but beyond that?  Nothing.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
In-Reply-To: <OF8A9C8510.72B94182-ON85256B9D.004D468D@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCMECKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

William

I did mail you off list ... but since you replied to the list, well, hey ...
;-)

> however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to actually be
> written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im new to XML
> and Xerces
> is not the best documented thing i have ever worked with. i was looking at
> maybe using the serializer to send a outPutStream through it. but it would
> seem to me that xerces should have a way of building this document out on
> the drive.

Try the following sort of thing -

try {
		myFileWriter = new FileWriter( "filename.xml");
		myFileWriter.flush();

		myDocumentImpl = new DocumentImpl();

		// ...



// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
		// Code to generate root element here, omitted for clarity


// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-


		// ...

		OutputFormat myOutputFormat = new OutputFormat( myDocumentImpl );
		myOutputFormat.setIndent( 4 );
		myOutputFormat.setIndenting( true );

		myOutputFormat.setDoctype( "filename.dtd" , "filename.dtd" );

		myXMLSerializer = new XMLSerializer( myOutputFormat );
		myXMLSerializer.setOutputCharStream( myFileWriter );


		// ...



// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
		// Generate the rest of the document, again omitted for clarity, then
write it


// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

		// ...

		myXMLSerializer.serialize( myDocumentImpl );
		myOutputFormat.flush();
	}
catch ( IOException ioe )
	{
	}

Hope this helps.

Andy B

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204161835500.25492-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
> Hell, for me that's today!  I can use my comp[uter, but for all I know, 
> this beige box is actually home to a tribe of magic pixes.
[snip]
> I still find it amazing and rather magical that this little bit of dreck 
> will be read by people on the other side of the planet (hi Jens and Hans!) 
> I sort of understand that it will be shuffled around by a lot of computers 
> that do that sort of thing, but beyond that?  Nothing.

The more I get to know about how things work, the more I think that they
are indeed powered by magic. And mathematics, which is almost the same
stuff. B-)

Trust me, you are better off not knowing how computer networks are built.
You might wonder how they do work at all... B-)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
Message-ID: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>







>I did mail you off list ... but since you replied to the list, well, hey
...
>;-)

Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
info.

Bill












From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RULES - Skill Lvl. 0
In-Reply-To: <12414.1018957560@www34.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAECLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hello

Originally, Skill Level - 0 meant no skill at all, and Skill Level - 1/2
meant some familiarity at a basic level, enough to avoid a penalty for
absolutely no ability or knowledge but not enough to actually grant a +DM.

Then it changed, so that the absence of the skill on a character sheet meant
no skill at all, and 0 meant some familiarity.

I rule that if you have Skill Level - 0 in something, then the next level
down would be no knowledge at all or the "absence" condition above.

Basically, Skill Level - 0 invokes no bonus and incurs no penalty. It does
not mean that you have Skill Level - 0 in a related skill, you're a
greenhorn with some learnin' is all.

Andy B.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:45:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:45:29 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCECLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> There was a great SF story written years ago, might even have been golden
> age, about a bunch of scientists who build a time machine. They can grab
> one person from the future.  They get an ad executive.  Sure there are
> cancer curesm flying cars, etc, but he just knows how to use
> them, not how they work.

Now that is what I call a grade A bad day ... pulling an ad exec from the
future - yeuch !

Andy B


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204161835500.25492-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <20020416155310.3125.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

> You might wonder how they do work at all... B-)

The place I used to work had an exceptionally
dimwitted programmer.  I mean, sitting listening to
his ideas for solving problems (the few he had) was an
exercise in humor at the least.  In any case, he would
work well into the night when code was due and his
stuff would eventually come close to working.  When we
found a bug, we looked for the code and it appeared
that the code was not doing what the system was doing.
 To this day, we swear he must've been sacrificing
chickens or virgins or virgin chickens or something to
get the stuff to work.

ObTrav:  There is a (Star Trek created?) stereotype of
the engineer who can fix anything but no one can tell
how he does it.  What other stereotypes are common in
your games?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:11:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:11:15 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
In-Reply-To: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <B8E19A80.35FF%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

on 4/16/02 4:23 AM, Jeff Zeitlin at editor@freelancetraveller.com wrote:

> I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
> protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
> Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
> flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
> never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
> _recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
> 
> Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
> allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
> more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
> you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
> like you are too valuable to lose.
> 

You deserve a lot more credit than you're giving yourself, Jeff.

I've submitted a couple of things, and Jeff not only posts them, he does an
wonderful job at layout, making them much easier to read than the raw text I
gave him (and probably making them a better read than they actually are).
That is a LOT of work, and it shows.  The whole site is great.

I'm giving you a standing ovation (well, not now, I'm typing - OK, there it
was, did you feel it?).

Thanks Jeff, you are the Fourth Force in Traveller support.

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:15:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:15:47 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <OF7A3367D5.83EB7401-ON85256B9D.0057F13F@pheaa.org>




<snip>
The place I used to work had an exceptionally
dimwitted programmer.  I mean, sitting listening to
his ideas for solving problems (the few he had) was an
exercise in humor at the least.
</snip>

Hmm you know i feel just like that right now. the Dimwitted Programmer 8(


>we swear he must've been sacrificing
>chickens or virgins or virgin chickens or something to
>get the stuff to work.

So if it works where can i get any of the above? or would a Groat do as
well?


OBTRAV:

The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
other.

Captain asks "What are you doing?"

New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"

Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P







From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:33:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:33:52 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <F20f7SMIaeYt2KoTstO00000c20@hotmail.com>

>From: "William Lane" <wlane@aessuccess.org>
>
>
>OBTRAV:
>
>The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
>Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
>engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
>Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
>other.
>
>Captain asks "What are you doing?"
>
>New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
>works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
>
>Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P

Jason Wright, the Merchant Ex-scout I play in Eris' Reaver's Deep game just 
raced into the engineering spaces when the gunner asked why the new engineer 
was taking apart the jump drive (since we were planning on lifting next day 
or so).

He raced in to find the Vargr hanging upside down with panels open and 
probes inserted, and the practical joking vargr with a flash bang for just 
such an occurance.

I'm wondering about her right now.  Current odds are that she'll make it 
through the first jump, but we'll space her during the second...

;-)

Thanks, Eris, for the Black-hole Money Pit which has seperated us from much 
money...

Greg

aka Rewock Mopit

Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:40:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:40:15 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204161638.EET02699@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Andrew MacLintock" says
>
>Jason Wright, the Merchant Ex-scout I play in Eris' Reaver's 
>Deep game just raced into the engineering spaces when the 
>gunner asked why the new engineer was taking apart the jump 
>drive (since we were planning on lifting next day 
>or so).
>
>He raced in to find the Vargr hanging upside down with 
>panels open and probes inserted, and the practical joking 
>vargr with a flash bang for just such an occurance.
>
>I'm wondering about her right now.  Current odds are that 
>she'll make it 
>through the first jump, but we'll space her during the 
>second...
>

Don't laugh.  When I was in Pershing (nuclear missiles, yes), 
we used to supplicate unto Dis, the God of Chaos, and ask for 
the Gift of Pre-Emptive Causality to take our bad luck away 
and bestow it upon the other missile platoons.

It worked.  Boy did it ever.  It got so bad that we were 
ordered to stop worshipping Dis.

Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from 
the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up 
during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and 
said, "Behold, Our God!".
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <200204161638.EET02699@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416131656.00b84c10@urbin.net>

At 12:38 PM 4/16/02 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
[snip]
>Don't laugh.  When I was in Pershing (nuclear missiles, yes),
>we used to supplicate unto Dis, the God of Chaos, and ask for
>the Gift of Pre-Emptive Causality to take our bad luck away
>and bestow it upon the other missile platoons.
>It worked.  Boy did it ever.  It got so bad that we were
>ordered to stop worshipping Dis.
>Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from
>the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
>again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up
>during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and
>said, "Behold, Our God!".

My keyboard is grateful that I wasn't drinking at the time.
I'm still chuckling though, that counts as a kill.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:27:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:27:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com> <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>

As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
something:

At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEJMDKAA.tml@downport.com>

I think that would be a fine use for a lot of those extra, windbag nobles we
have lying around the Imperium. Make them barristers, judges, justices,
notaries public or attorneys general! Do something to stop them cluttering
up the casinos and VIP lounges.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Texas Redshift

As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
something:

At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:43:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:43:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <200204161741.EEV03115@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Texas Redshift" says
>How litigous is the Imperium?
I'm not even sure there's an Imperial Supreme Court.  The 
individual governments seem to have their own laws and 
courts.  There is also the idea expressed in canon that this 
is a different age, where lawsuits across the Imperium do not 
happen.

There might be some legal agreements between various 
systems.  

But IMHO, the litigation level depends on the law level and 
the government type.

One of the first Traveller adventures I was in (1979), we 
were in a ground car accident - minor fender bender.  I 
hadn't gotten the idea down that there was Law Level Zero.

I got out of the car with the others, and asked the other 
driver if he had insurance.  He said, "No."  So I said to my 
friends, "I think we should wait for the police."  They 
laughed and said, "Hey stupid, there are no police."

So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the 
occupants of the other car without warning.  Then we went 
through their pockets for loose change.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018978883.2225.ajackson@ping>

Texas Redshift writes:
> As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
> something:
> 
> At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
> Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
> judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Depends on the world.  There are canon references to 'government of men, not
laws', which implies on the interstellar level it's not litigous per se, and
annoying the local judge with frivolous suits is probably a poor idea.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] CSC software
Message-ID: <200204161814.EEV08005@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I keep seeing references to this.  Is it still available?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416121821.009f23a0@mail.attbi.com>

	Here is a question for you technical types.
	Would a sandcaster actually work as well in the real world as it is 
portrayed in canon?  Also, would a sandcaster affect a particle beam at all?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:33:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:33:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F1633Sv0YKpDS7hx27k00013014@hotmail.com>

Perhaps contracts would provide that disputes would be resolved in a certain 
forum.  For instance, all disputes must be resolved in the Third District 
Court of Regina/Regina or by binding arbitration of the merchant guild or by 
Quickcourts, LIC.

If the Imperium operates as a functioning far-flung market economy, which 
seems to be the case, it must have some efficient method of dispute 
resolution.

>Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
>Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

Was there is an old JTAS article on Imperial justice?

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:35:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:35:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416121821.009f23a0@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018981937.7543.ajackson@ping>

Dale Gyles writes:
>      Here is a question for you technical types.
>      Would a sandcaster actually work as well in the real world as it is 
> portrayed in canon?  Also, would a sandcaster affect a particle beam at
> all? 

Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would work
reasonably well against just about any weapon.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:40:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:40:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <200204161837.EEX02352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Dale Gyles says
>
>	Here is a question for you technical types.
>	Would a sandcaster actually work as well in the real 
>world as it is portrayed in canon?  Also, would a sandcaster 
>affect a particle beam at all?
>
The spot size for the projected SBL is around a foot in 
diameter. The US Air Force is assuming that missiles will be 
painted or coated to optimize reflectivity, and they also 
anticipate that the missiles will spin to reduce the 
effectiveness of the laser.  "Sand" or some sort of 
particulate matter that interferes with the operation of the 
beam, would have to be held in close proximity to the ship.  
The beam has such a small spot size, that to effectively 
maintain a density of sand which would reduce the 
effectiveness of the beam means that you cannot allow it to 
disperse.  There are also plasmas that can be formed that 
might increase the reflectivity of the ship itself at the 
expense of increasing the ship''s signature.

The main way that the SBL intends to defeat reflective 
coatings, spinning, heavier construction, ablative coatings, 
and other countermeasures is to scale up the power.  In the 
case of missiles, they give good arguments as to why the 
countermeasures are, within an ability to hold the beam on 
target for four seconds, ineffective.  That is, with current 
tech, the coatings and spinning are already factored into the 
laser's design.  

As for a particle beam, the amount of material is so 
miniscule, and so thinly spread (the beam is probably 
neutrons), that sand would be useless.  These beams are also 
regarded as being more effective at penetrating armor (from 
the point of view of the Air Force) than a laser.  Both 
radiation damage and deep heating are expected to occur with 
a particle beam weapon.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CSC software
References: <200204161814.EEV08005@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC70CD.1060806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I keep seeing references to this.  Is it still available?

At Bits:

http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/BITS_website/Productsfolder/prod_INFV.htm

Mac only, but a sweet piece of software, if I do say so myself.

For some examples of designs see:

http://oscar.pharmacy.arizona.edu/csc_page.html

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <200204161837.EEX02352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018982859.1183.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> As for a particle beam, the amount of material is so 
> miniscule, and so thinly spread (the beam is probably 
> neutrons), that sand would be useless.  These beams are also 
> regarded as being more effective at penetrating armor (from 
> the point of view of the Air Force) than a laser.  Both 
> radiation damage and deep heating are expected to occur with 
> a particle beam weapon.

Erm.  Probably not neutrons, you can't accelerate them or aim them, though a
space-based particle beam would accelerate ions and then remove the charge,
resulting in a neutral particle beam (penetration would not be better than a
charged particle beam).  Problem with particle beams is they're very difficult
to focus.  Advantage is if you crank the per-particle energies high enough, the
levels of shielding possible on a realistic missile are pretty much irrelevant,
and you can radiation-cook the entire missile.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J A (Jim) Cooper)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
References: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c1e577$fb937b20$9c8c4218@mshome.net>

I would also like to add my congratulations to those of DB and JW. I have
used the sight often and repeatedly.
Keep up the good work.

Jim Cooper

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Zeitlin" <editor@freelancetraveller.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 4:23 AM
Subject: [TML] WOW! I'm massively flattered!


> I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
> protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
> Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
> flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
> never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
> _recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
>
> Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
> allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
> more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
> you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on;
people
> like you are too valuable to lose.
>
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
> Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
> http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
> http://www.freelancetraveller.com
> http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
> editor@freelancetraveller.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <200204161741.EEV03115@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC7D4F.7020102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> I got out of the car with the others, and asked the other 
> driver if he had insurance.  He said, "No."  So I said to my 
> friends, "I think we should wait for the police."  They 
> laughed and said, "Hey stupid, there are no police."
> 
> So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the 
> occupants of the other car without warning.  Then we went 
> through their pockets for loose change.

How long did your party survive before the local residents rounded you 
up and hung you?

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:37:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:37:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>

--part1_9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 15/04/02 17:23:52 GMT Daylight Time, 
firelock_ny@hotmail.com writes:


> One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
> only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
> than they pay out in claims.
> 
> If you are a large enough organization, like a Mega-Corp,
> then your insurable losses from any particular event should
> be low enough (as a percentage of your total income) that it
> will be a better option for you to absorb the losses as they
> occur rather than continuously pay out insurance premiums.
> You'll "self-insure", by keeping cash on hand enough to cover emergencies 
> and accidents.  This is a good way for a large
> enough company to do business, since this "cash on hand",
> while it's on hand, can be earning for the company while
> insurance premiums are gone.

I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Any company, no matter how large, that 
believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
disaster. Trivial accidents, like the loss of a starship or the destruction 
of a drilling platform, are by their nature unpredictable and that is one of 
the best reasons for having insurance. True a single trivial accident can be 
absorbed easily but what about ten or twenty close together?

How can money put aside to insure against risk earn money for the company? It 
has to be safe and readily available at all times. You can't simply leave it 
sitting in an account - AFAIK banks simply don't pay interest on huge sums. 
That leaves you with safe but easily accessible investments which may not 
earn as much as the new unobtanium extraction rig you could have built with 
the money. And how do we decide how much to put aside? We need a specialist 
department to calculate risk and analyse patterns to decide what risks we 
should cover and how much we should put aside. Why not make it easy for 
ourselves and use a specialist outside contractor to do all the hard work?

> 
> If a catastrophe happens that destroys more value of your
> megacorp assets than you would have been paying out in
> insurance premiums, then chances are a war caused it - and
> insurance companies are noted for not paying out claims
> on damage caused by acts of war anyway.

Not neccessarily so - let's say that my mega-corp discovers this fantastic 
new fire-retarding, insulation material. It's easy and cheap to make and can 
be cut and moulded to all sorts of shapes. We call it Sotsebsa and it sells 
like hot cakes. Unfortunately it soon turns out that our wonder product has 
some undocumented problems - mostly it's safe but if you breathe in its dust 
you develop a really nasty, debilitating and fatal lung disease. True high TL 
medicine can cure it in a snap but we mostly sold this stuff on moderate tech 
worlds and millions of people are claiming we've poisoned them.

Now the cost of an individual claim is trivial but the cost of millions is 
not, particularly as we're not going to accept responsibility anywhere in 
case it sets a precedent. What's more our investors can see they're returns 
dwindling, after all we're spending more and more money on defence and 
compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral - 
we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet all of 
them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet these costs. 
Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have previously paid 
them, saving us in the long run, money.

And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want absorb 
the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to perform some 
unplanned demolition on the local school district? 

> 
> So, you'll have two tiers of starship out there.  The
> small or independent operator, who buys insurance (since a
> single event will likely put him out of business otherwise).
> The large corp, which may self-insure (that is, put money
> aside to cover replacement, rather than pay out premiums).

As I said above it's not just a question of assets. Does the mega-corp just 
cover the replacement of its starship or does it cover the potential loss of 
an up-port, down-port, all the other ships in dock, assorted cats, dogs and 
groats plus the mental well-being of little old ladies? If it's the former 
how much money does the mega-corp put aside to cover the legal costs of 
fighting the claims of the other groups? Again it makes far better business 
sense to transfer the risk to someone else. 

> 
> If most of a starport's traffic is megacorp vessels,
> then that starport won't have the insurance industry
> involved as much with starport safety requirements.
> The megacorp may have to post a bond of some sort, but
> this bond may be a trivial formality if the megacorp
> is in bed with the local starport authority...which they
> probably will be, the megacorp likely built the bed,
> washed the linens and hired the nubile young bedwarmers.
> 
> The small independent operator may have to post a bond
> of sorts to gain access to a starport as well.  This bond
> may well be posted by the independent operator's insurance
> carrier on behalf of all the carrier's clients, with the
> insurance carrier requiring operators to meet certain
> safety guidelines to get coverage and access to the bond.
> 
> Walt Smith
> 

I agree there will be different standards for private operators and 
mega-corps but that doesn't mean that mega-corps will self-insure. My 
argument is that the job of assessing risk and betting that accidents won't 
happen is a specialised business. Mega-corps, although they might have 
insurance arms, are not in the business of risking that they won't have the 
funds needed to cover a disaster. It is far easier, and in the long run more 
cost effective, to transfer risk to someone else.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 15/04/02 17:23:52 GMT Daylight Time, firelock_ny@hotmail.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">One thing to remember about insurance companies:&nbsp; they are<BR>
only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums<BR>
than they pay out in claims.<BR>
<BR>
If you are a large enough organization, like a Mega-Corp,<BR>
then your insurable losses from any particular event should<BR>
be low enough (as a percentage of your total income) that it<BR>
will be a better option for you to absorb the losses as they<BR>
occur rather than continuously pay out insurance premiums.<BR>
You'll "self-insure", by keeping cash on hand enough to cover emergencies <BR>
and accidents.&nbsp; This is a good way for a large<BR>
enough company to do business, since this "cash on hand",<BR>
while it's on hand, can be earning for the company while<BR>
insurance premiums are gone.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Any company, no matter how large, that believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to disaster. Trivial accidents, like the loss of a starship or the destruction of a drilling platform, are by their nature unpredictable and that is one of the best reasons for having insurance. True a single trivial accident can be absorbed easily but what about ten or twenty close together?<BR>
<BR>
How can money put aside to insure against risk earn money for the company? It has to be safe and readily available at all times. You can't simply leave it sitting in an account - AFAIK banks simply don't pay interest on huge sums. That leaves you with safe but easily accessible investments which may not earn as much as the new unobtanium extraction rig you could have built with the money. And how do we decide how much to put aside? We need a specialist department to calculate risk and analyse patterns to decide what risks we should cover and how much we should put aside. Why not make it easy for ourselves and use a specialist outside contractor to do all the hard work?</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
If a catastrophe happens that destroys more value of your<BR>
megacorp assets than you would have been paying out in<BR>
insurance premiums, then chances are a war caused it - and<BR>
insurance companies are noted for not paying out claims<BR>
on damage caused by acts of war anyway.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Not neccessarily so - let's say that my mega-corp discovers this fantastic new fire-retarding, insulation material. It's easy and cheap to make and can be cut and moulded to all sorts of shapes. We call it Sotsebsa and it sells like hot cakes. Unfortunately it soon turns out that our wonder product has some undocumented problems - mostly it's safe but if you breathe in its dust you develop a really nasty, debilitating and fatal lung disease. True high TL medicine can cure it in a snap but we mostly sold this stuff on moderate tech worlds and millions of people are claiming we've poisoned them.<BR>
<BR>
Now the cost of an individual claim is trivial but the cost of millions is not, particularly as we're not going to accept responsibility anywhere in case it sets a precedent. What's more our investors can see they're returns dwindling, after all we're spending more and more money on defence and compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral - we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet all of them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet these costs. Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have previously paid them, saving us in the long run, money.<BR>
<BR>
And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want absorb the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to perform some unplanned demolition on the local school district? </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
So, you'll have two tiers of starship out there.&nbsp; The<BR>
small or independent operator, who buys insurance (since a<BR>
single event will likely put him out of business otherwise).<BR>
The large corp, which may self-insure (that is, put money<BR>
aside to cover replacement, rather than pay out premiums).</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">As I said above it's not just a question of assets. Does the mega-corp just cover the replacement of its starship or does it cover the potential loss of an up-port, down-port, all the other ships in dock, assorted cats, dogs and groats plus the mental well-being of little old ladies? If it's the former how much money does the mega-corp put aside to cover the legal costs of fighting the claims of the other groups? Again it makes far better business sense to transfer the risk to someone else. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
If most of a starport's traffic is megacorp vessels,<BR>
then that starport won't have the insurance industry<BR>
involved as much with starport safety requirements.<BR>
The megacorp may have to post a bond of some sort, but<BR>
this bond may be a trivial formality if the megacorp<BR>
is in bed with the local starport authority...which they<BR>
probably will be, the megacorp likely built the bed,<BR>
washed the linens and hired the nubile young bedwarmers.<BR>
<BR>
The small independent operator may have to post a bond<BR>
of sorts to gain access to a starport as well.&nbsp; This bond<BR>
may well be posted by the independent operator's insurance<BR>
carrier on behalf of all the carrier's clients, with the<BR>
insurance carrier requiring operators to meet certain<BR>
safety guidelines to get coverage and access to the bond.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I agree there will be different standards for private operators and mega-corps but that doesn't mean that mega-corps will self-insure. My argument is that the job of assessing risk and betting that accidents won't happen is a specialised business. Mega-corps, although they might have insurance arms, are not in the business of risking that they won't have the funds needed to cover a disaster. It is far easier, and in the long run more cost effective, to transfer risk to someone else.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:46:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:46:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC7F09.6050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
> skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
> They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
> thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
> in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
> living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.


Eris' methods:

PC's inherit fine, functioning starship. PC's overjoyed, one 
particularly stupid one makes dumb DUMB comments about how easy it'll be 
to compete with ship owners who have a mortgage to pay. (Gee I wonder 
who?;-)

Bad guys steal ship.

Space Patroooool to the Rescuuue! <sound of inspirational music, 
punctuated by large explosions>

Space Patrol "Here. We caught the hijackers and recovered your ship. 
Thank us!"

PC's "But there are large holes in our ship where there used to be a 
jump drive, a drive controller, and a safe in the ship's locker"

SP: "Well they didn't surrender peacefully. Thank us and don't ask 
questions."

PC's notice that SP officer is wearing secret police uniform."Thank you"

PC's go to bank and get large loan to get ship flying again.

<scrape scrape> Hold up cardboard signs "Will carry stuff for credits" 
just like all the other free traders...
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:48:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:48:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson asks
>
>How long did your party survive before the local residents 
>rounded you  up and hung you?
>
That was the problem.  They had friends.  We got back to 
town, and they heard about it.  Later that day, when we were 
strolling into the front foyer of the guest house were were 
staying at, three men stepped into the room and opened up on 
us with submachineguns.  Of the six people in our party, one 
survived.  The three attackers died, but the locals were 
steamed enough to shoot the survivor after hearing his tale.

It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
received.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 03:36:24PM -0400
References: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020416135830.A13448@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 03:36:24PM -0400, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have to disagree, I'm afraid.  Any company, no matter how large, that 
> believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
> disaster.

But that's what an insurance company does...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Whenever you walk by a computer and see someone using pico, be kind.
Pause for a second and remind yourself that: `There, but for the grace
of God, go I.'                                           --Harley Hahn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:12:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:12:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018987914.6966.ajackson@ping>

CHam628781@aol.com writes:
> In a message dated 15/04/02 17:23:52 GMT Daylight Time, 
> firelock_ny@hotmail.com writes:
> 
> > One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
> > only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
> > than they pay out in claims.

This isn't actually true.  It's enough if 'payments plus interest on payments'
exceeds average payout.

> I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Any company, no matter how large, that 
> believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
> disaster. Trivial accidents, like the loss of a starship or the destruction
>  of a drilling platform, are by their nature unpredictable and that is one
> of  the best reasons for having insurance. True a single trivial accident
> can be  absorbed easily but what about ten or twenty close together?

Beyond a certain point, there's no choice.  Also, businesses do sometimes fail.
> 
> How can money put aside to insure against risk earn money for the company?

You 'put it aside' in assets and investments.

> It  has to be safe and readily available at all times.

Nah.  Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the
resources and reputation of the company.
> compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral
> -  we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet
> all of  them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet
> these costs.  Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have
> previously paid  them, saving us in the long run, money.

Well, given that it's your fault, the insurance is likely to be reluctant to
pay anyway.
> 
> And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want
> absorb  the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to
> perform some  unplanned demolition on the local school district? 

Many real-world large companies do exactly that.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <200204162032.EFB01691@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

We could go on and discuss how reserves are handled, explain 
the concept of the "book of business", and talk about 
reinsurance.

IMTU I feel that ship insurance is handled much more like 
Lloyd's (with individuals teaming up to take on risk) rather 
than like the auto insurance model.  Starships seem so much 
more risky than automobiles, and the payout on loss is so 
high, that I can truly see it taking a form resembling 
organized gambling (which is, after all, what Lloyd's is 
running - the world's highest paying casino - hope you don't 
lose).

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <200204161638.EET02699@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416132832.009ffd60@mindspring.com>

At 12:38 PM 4/16/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Don't laugh.  When I was in Pershing (nuclear missiles, yes),
>we used to supplicate unto Dis, the God of Chaos, and ask for
>the Gift of Pre-Emptive Causality to take our bad luck away
>and bestow it upon the other missile platoons.

"Humans, humans pay your dues
Just two paths that you get to chose
Feed us right, or fight and lose
Gremlins everywhere."  - Leslie Fish

I knew mechanics who would, with all seriousness, leave out plates of milk 
for the Gremlins.  These units had the highest readiness rates in the brigade.

>It worked.  Boy did it ever.  It got so bad that we were
>ordered to stop worshipping Dis.

Does the phrase "freedom of religion" mean anything?  I was openly a 
Discordian while in the service.

>Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from
>the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
>again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up
>during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and
>said, "Behold, Our God!".

Actually, I would have thought it would be the Sergeant Major who had a 
problem with that.. you know how they hate competiton.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <15c.be25cf3.29ede8fa@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 20:59:44 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:


> > I have to disagree, I'm afraid.  Any company, no matter how large, that 
> > believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
> > disaster.
> 
> But that's what an insurance company does...
> 

No, insurance companies tend to insure themselves against risk as well. I 
believe there's even a well established branch of business that deals with it 
- can't remember the name though :(

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 20:59:44 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; I have to disagree, I'm afraid.&nbsp; Any company, no matter how large, that <BR>
&gt; believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to <BR>
&gt; disaster.<BR>
<BR>
But that's what an insurance company does...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
No, insurance companies tend to insure themselves against risk as well. I believe there's even a well established branch of business that deals with it - can't remember the name though :(<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <158.c6ba94a.29ede9ff@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 21:13:08 GMT Daylight Time, 
ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:


> > It  has to be safe and readily available at all times.
> 
> Nah.  Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the
> resources and reputation of the company.

Which is harder if you the people you are borrowing from know that you have 
no way of spreading the risk.

> > compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a 
> spiral
> > -  we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet
> > all of  them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet
> > these costs.  Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have
> > previously paid  them, saving us in the long run, money.
> 
> Well, given that it's your fault, the insurance is likely to be reluctant 
> to
> pay anyway.

Fault is not always relevant from an insurance companies point of view. It 
may be stuck with representing you whether it likes it or not.

> > 
> > And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want
> > absorb  the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to
> > perform some  unplanned demolition on the local school district? 
> 
> Many real-world large companies do exactly that.
> 
Not the sensible ones,

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 21:13:08 GMT Daylight Time, ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; It&nbsp; has to be safe and readily available at all times.<BR>
<BR>
Nah.&nbsp; Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the<BR>
resources and reputation of the company.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Which is harder if you the people you are borrowing from know that you have no way of spreading the risk.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral<BR>
&gt; -&nbsp; we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet<BR>
&gt; all of&nbsp; them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet<BR>
&gt; these costs.&nbsp; Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have<BR>
&gt; previously paid&nbsp; them, saving us in the long run, money.<BR>
<BR>
Well, given that it's your fault, the insurance is likely to be reluctant to<BR>
pay anyway.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Fault is not always relevant from an insurance companies point of view. It may be stuck with representing you whether it likes it or not.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; <BR>
&gt; And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want<BR>
&gt; absorb&nbsp; the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to<BR>
&gt; perform some&nbsp; unplanned demolition on the local school district? <BR>
<BR>
Many real-world large companies do exactly that.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
Not the sensible ones,<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_158.c6ba94a.29ede9ff_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:58:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:58:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <103.13d0e078.29edea3d@aol.com>

--part1_103.13d0e078.29edea3d_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 16/04/02 21:33:55 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com 
writes:


> We could go on and discuss how reserves are handled, explain 
> the concept of the "book of business", and talk about 
> reinsurance.
> 
> IMTU I feel that ship insurance is handled much more like 
> Lloyd's (with individuals teaming up to take on risk) rather 
> than like the auto insurance model.  Starships seem so much 
> more risky than automobiles, and the payout on loss is so 
> high, that I can truly see it taking a form resembling 
> organized gambling (which is, after all, what Lloyd's is 
> running - the world's highest paying casino - hope you don't 
> lose).
> 

I like Lloyds - there's nothing more satisfying than watching the complacent 
rich get their come-uppance ;)

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_103.13d0e078.29edea3d_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 21:33:55 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">We could go on and discuss how reserves are handled, explain <BR>
the concept of the "book of business", and talk about <BR>
reinsurance.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU I feel that ship insurance is handled much more like <BR>
Lloyd's (with individuals teaming up to take on risk) rather <BR>
than like the auto insurance model.&nbsp; Starships seem so much <BR>
more risky than automobiles, and the payout on loss is so <BR>
high, that I can truly see it taking a form resembling <BR>
organized gambling (which is, after all, what Lloyd's is <BR>
running - the world's highest paying casino - hope you don't <BR>
lose).<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I like Lloyds - there's nothing more satisfying than watching the complacent rich get their come-uppance ;)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_103.13d0e078.29edea3d_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:59:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:59:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com>

Anthony Jackson writes:
<Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would 
work
reasonably well against just about any weapon.>

Ok, what is the difference between sand and chaff?  I always that chaff was 
strips of foil cut to a particular length of the
wavelength of a radar, and the sand in a sandcaster used particles of the 
correct size to interact with the laser wavelength.  I thought they were 
the same process.

John T. Kwon writes:
<As for a particle beam, the amount of material is so
miniscule, and so thinly spread (the beam is probably
neutrons), that sand would be useless. These beams are also
regarded as being more effective at penetrating armor (from
the point of view of the Air Force) than a laser. Both
radiation damage and deep heating are expected to occur with
a particle beam weapon>

That makes sense. (disclaimer, I am not a physicist, nor do I play one on 
TV).  Now I wonder if an X-ray laser would functionally
equivelent to a neutral particle beam? (in game terms)

I remember that in CT that one of the subjects of Imperial Research 
Stations was suggested to be X-ray lasers.  I have read somewhere that we 
can make X-ray lasers now.  In my campaigns I told the players that they 
were restricted military technology,
with the same penalties as possessing nuclear weapons.  (you got the death 
penalty)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <20020416.165610.-108551.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Congratulations!  The award is well deserved.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"


On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 07:23:41 -0400 Jeff Zeitlin
<editor@freelancetraveller.com> writes:
> I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
> protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make 
> Freelance
> Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
> flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, 
> I
> never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to 
> be
> _recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
> 
> Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who 
> has
> allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your 
> work
> more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As 
> long as
> you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; 
> people
> like you are too valuable to lose.
> 
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
> Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller 
> Resource
> http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
> http://www.freelancetraveller.com
> http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
> editor@freelancetraveller.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

                


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:01:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:01:31 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com> <3CBC7F09.6050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CBC9112.90505@telocity.com>

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>> Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
>> skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
>> They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
>> thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
>> in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
>> living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.
>
>
>
> Eris' methods:
>
> PC's inherit fine, functioning starship. PC's overjoyed, one 
> particularly stupid one makes dumb DUMB comments about how easy it'll 
> be to compete with ship owners who have a mortgage to pay. (Gee I 
> wonder who?;-)
>
> Bad guys steal ship.
>
> Space Patroooool to the Rescuuue! <sound of inspirational music, 
> punctuated by large explosions>
>
> Space Patrol "Here. We caught the hijackers and recovered your ship. 
> Thank us!"
>
> PC's "But there are large holes in our ship where there used to be a 
> jump drive, a drive controller, and a safe in the ship's locker"
>
> SP: "Well they didn't surrender peacefully. Thank us and don't ask 
> questions."
>
> PC's notice that SP officer is wearing secret police uniform."Thank you"
>
> PC's go to bank and get large loan to get ship flying again.
>
> <scrape scrape> Hold up cardboard signs "Will carry stuff for credits" 
> just like all the other free traders...

Ah! Bruce has devined my methods...I will have to be more subtle when 
next I raid their treasury. <g>

Eris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:03:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:03:15 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <F37TW5k1Ed28kIN4MmX00001857@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.132856.6I9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
> In mail, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote
>
>>
>>Space is *big*. And they'll be visible the whole time.
>>
>>That's the problem. there's a whole lot of nothing, and even a small
>>ship stands out like a sore thumb.
>>
>
> So how does a starship of say, 400Dtons (ISTR 'Patrol Cruisers' were one 
> ship of choice for the discerning Ethically Challenged Merchant*) compare to 
> a fairly small asteroid?  Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in 
> near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near 
> misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a 
> single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?

We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.

> Is that a pirate out there, or a customs ship making sure you are behaving 
> yourself, or a sensor glitch, or an asteroid, or...

Asteroids aren't moving at hundreds of km/sec. And they aren't going to
be on intercept courses either. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:03:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:03:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20020416031009.2bda525e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20416.134013.8u0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
>> things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
>> buildings and the like.
>
> Thank you for hitting me with the "stupid" stick for the second time in
> the last days, Leonard  :-)

Not stupid. Just a bad case of "oops!".

Remember, you only embarassed yourself on the list. Think of all the
folks involved with Babylon 5 who made the ""million tons of spinning
metal" goof in the opening sequence (hint: a mass of *air* the size of
babylon 5 weighs more than a million tons :-)

And I'm rather suspicious of the masses David Weber gives for a lot of
the ships in the Honor Harrington stuff too.

Like I said, we don't have experience with this sort of thing so we
have no judgement for the numbers involved.

> I'll crawl back into my dark corner now.

Nah, if everyone who goofed did that who'd be posting? :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:04:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:04:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8e0f93f2f0d@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20416.134553.3z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>>todal forces are the same.
>
> A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the 
> size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity 
> in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal 
> gradient.

Actually, the tidal force varies *linearly* with the distance from the
center of mass of the body experiencing the tidal forces. Not *quite*
the same thing as varying with the size. 

As a good example, consider some folks in spacesuits tethered to a
ship. The forces they experience depend on the distance and direction
from the ship, not on the size of the ship.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:04:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:04:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> For Mercury (5.43), Venus (5.24) and Earth (5.52), yes.
> For Mars (3.93), any Jovian moon (some of which are considered "rocky", e.g.
> Io, at 3.53), and a few others, no.
> Personally, I'd reckon that density can vary considerably even for rocky
> worlds, say from 3.0 to nearly 7.8 (almost totally iron) or 8.5+ (almost
> totally nickel).

There are "clusters". And it's *really* unlikely that any sizable body
will have a density much above Mercury's. At least in a "normal"
system. The planets that form around supernova remnants are likely to
be very different.

>> So if there's any sort of safety factor built in to the "100 diameter"
>> rule, it'll work fine except in *really* oddball situations (say trying
>> to jump close to a *big* nickel-iron asteroid).
>
> So ... if I had a planet with an extremely large Ni-Fe core, and a higher
> mean density as a result, say towards 6.5 or 7.0, then the 100D rule would
> not be good enough. Another hazard for exploring uncharted systems, I guess.

Ain't gonna happen. The abundance of materials in the cloud of dust and
gas a system forms from means that anything with a substantial iron
core will have a lot more rocky material overlying it. 

The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.

>> The details *do* matter, because the forces at the *hull* of even a
>> small ship will *exceed* those from a planet at 100 diameters. That's a
>> *unavoidable*.
>
> Leonard, please don't emphasise words with asterisks. It just makes
> things harder to read and comes over patronising, even if that's not
> intended.

> *Try* *reading* *this* *sentence* *to* *see* *what* *I* *mean*.

I'm not going to quit indicating emphasis. And the alternatives are
asterisks or underlines and the asterisks are much easier to hit. 

Yes, it's harder to read a sentence where you individually emphasize
each word with them. But that's not what I'm doing.

As for patronizing, I'm not responsible for what you read into what I
write.

> Also, if we have to handwave away the tidal gradient due to the
> ship's hull, then I'd argue that the tidal gradient is not the
> principal factor in a misjump, no matter how well the figures fit.

Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
something that will be directly proportional to it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <OF7A3367D5.83EB7401-ON85256B9D.0057F13F@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBC9264.2050709@telocity.com>

William Lane wrote:

>OBTRAV:
>
>The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
>Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
>engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
>Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
>other.
>
>Captain asks "What are you doing?"
>
>New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
>works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
>
>Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P
>
Okay, Greg, how much you going to pay me not to pass *this* one along to 
Misha? <g>

The gang in the Reaver's Deep game just hired a Vargr engineer (played 
by Misha). Her first action aboard the ship was to hang from an overhead 
pipe with her head in the jump drive while she "checked it out."  I'll 
let Captain Jason (Greg) tell you what happened next...<g>

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
 <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416161824.01e88790@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:22 PM 4/16/2002, Texas Redshift wrote:
>At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
>Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
>judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?  Does the Imperium have a civil 
>court and what jurisdiction does it assert? Is jury trial available?  Are 
>judges elected? Appointed?

All of the following should be prefixed with the comment that I'm referring 
to My Traveller Universe, and so this may not hold for anyone else.  I 
don't know what the Canon has to say on the matter; while a lot has been 
written about the various Traveller militaries, I don't think anyone has 
ever written a supplement about lawyers and lawsuits in the Imperium.  ;-)

First of all, following a general legal principle IMTU, if the parties in 
any sort of legal action are located on the same world, then the legal 
action is resolved using that world's laws, judicial system, and 
practices.  Member worlds can basically do anything that they would like in 
this arena, subject to some basic guidelines (recognition of Imperial 
currency, validity of Imperial contracts, laws, charters, etc.) that worlds 
agree to implement as a condition of membership in the Imperium.  Outside 
of those guidelines, member worlds can (and do) have just about any sort of 
legal system, from the King's justice dispensed at sword-point to a complex 
web of liability, contract, and insurance laws that makes the 21st-century 
USA look non-litigious.

Only when the issue involves more than one world does Imperial law 
apply.  The Imperium has basic contract and liability law, written (as are 
most Imperial laws) primarily for the benefit of interstellar trade, 
commerce (and therefore primarily of benefit to business that operate on an 
interstellar scale).  IMTU, Imperial (interstellar) society is not very 
litigious - partially due to the nature of the society (which prefers an 
out-of-court settlement of some type), and partially due to the high cost 
of bringing an interstellar suit.  IMTU the Imperium has both civil and 
criminal courts, both administered by the nobility.  In general, the case 
is heard in the plaintiff's venue.

If they press onward, the case is heard by a judge (jury trials are not 
available).  In some cases, the judge is the appropriate noble in person; 
but for the most part, judges are appointed by the noble to act in his or 
her stead.  Judges serve at the noble's convenience, and can be replaced by 
him or her at any time (but usually are not, and serve until they 
retire).  Appeals are possible up the chain of fealty (all the way to the 
Emperor, at least in theory).  In the case where a judge is appointed, an 
appeal directly to the noble who appointed him or her is also possible.  In 
all cases, appeals are unlikely to succeed.  Jury trials are not available.

Most nobles tend to view cases that actually come before them with a bit of 
prejudice "which of the parties is being stubborn and unwilling to settle 
out of court?"  The reputations of the lawyers representing the parties, 
and (particularly where large corporations are involved) the reputations of 
the parties themselves often has a large influence on the outcome of the 
trial:  "Bernard Hault-Wugga?  Aren't you Baron Wishaggga's son?  OK, 
Bernie, exactly how has SuSAG wronged your client?  They did what?  Oh, of 
course; how dreadful.  MCr 3 in putative damages sounds good.  See you at 
the Solar Yacht Race next week?  Good, tell you father hello from me."  (an 
extreme example, but no doubt it happens).

For role-playing purposes, this lets the referee be as arbitrary as needed 
(and also gives the players incentive to find some other way - any other 
way - of settling differences).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:09:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:09:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018991242.5758.ajackson@ping>

Dale Gyles writes:
> Anthony Jackson writes:
> <Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would 
> work
> reasonably well against just about any weapon.>
> 
> Ok, what is the difference between sand and chaff?

The purpose of chaff is obscuring sensors.  The purpose of sand, as described
in Traveller, is stopping weapons fire.

>  I always that chaff was
>  strips of foil cut to a particular length of the
> wavelength of a radar, and the sand in a sandcaster used particles of the 
> correct size to interact with the laser wavelength.  I thought they were 
> the same process.

Well, there's a fairly significant difference, in that radar does not generally
have the power to burn through an inch of steel.
> 
> That makes sense. (disclaimer, I am not a physicist, nor do I play one on 
> TV).  Now I wonder if an X-ray laser would functionally
> equivelent to a neutral particle beam? (in game terms)

No, though a gamma ray laser would be fairly similar (somewhat different
penetration).
> 
> I remember that in CT that one of the subjects of Imperial Research 
> Stations was suggested to be X-ray lasers.  I have read somewhere that we 
> can make X-ray lasers now.  In my campaigns I told the players that they 
> were restricted military technology,
> with the same penalties as possessing nuclear weapons.  (you got the death 
> penalty)

I seem to recall something about X-ray lasers being developed, but they're not
exactly weapons-grade.  The old SDI people talked about bomb-pumped X-ray
lasers, a mechanism which AFAIK has never been successfully demonstrated, not
that this prevent people from using it in SF.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:02:50 +1000, Timothy Little
> <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:
>
>>JR Holmes wrote:
>>> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force
>>> upon itself
>>
>>You are.  This is very important in determining Roche's limit, for
>>example.
>
> I remain unconvinced in this regard.  "Roche's Limit is the distance
> from a planet inside which a satellite will be torn apart by tidal
> forces." (from http://www.cvc.org/astronomy/roche_limit.htm) or
> "Roche's Limit, which is the distance from a planet at which the
> planet's tidal force on a satellite (tending to stretch apart) is
> equal to the satellite's self-gravity (tending to hold it together)."
> (from http://utrao.as.utexas.edu/ast301/log/log22.html)
>
> As per the above, Roche's Limit is where these tidal forces (a
> tensional force) equal the compressional forces of an object's own
> gravity.  But this is in regard to the tidal forces exerted _with
> regard to another body_.  Without the other body, no tidal force.
>
> It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In another
> of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional and
> compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive me if
> I am interpreting you incorrectly).  I believe you are in error in
> this regard.  As per the above, the compressional forces are due to
> the object's self-gravity and only the tensional forces are due to the
> influence of another body and therefore are tidal forces.

No. Tidal forces are *away* from the center of the satellite along the
line joining it to the primary (ie the side closest to the primary is
pulled towards the primary, and the side opposite the primary is pulled
*away* from the primary. 

But the forces in the plane perpendicular to that line are *towards*
the center of the satellite. 

so if you were orbiting close to a neutron star in a space suit, your
feet would be pulled towards the star, your head would be pulled away
from it and your waist would be getting squeezed. 

Look at it like this. If you are orbiting, the center of your body is
moving at the right speed in the right direction. It's in freefall. 

But a point farther from the primary, if left to itself would be
traveling in a *different* orbit. With a different velocity. Ditto for
points closer to the primary, and for point "ahead" or "behind" the
center. And the same foes for point to the "left" and "right" of the
center.

The points closer to and farther from the primary would be moving *away*
from the center if they weren't attached. The ones ahead, behind and to
the sides would be moving *closer* to the center.

And that's essentially where the forces come from. Self gravity of the
body has nothing to do with it, and, in fact for a body that has to
worry about the Roche Limit, the forces *far* exceed its self gravity.

Get a copy of Dr. Robert Forward's book "Indistinguishable from Magic".
It's got a chapter on tidal forces, complete with diagrams and formulas.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <158.c6ba94a.29ede9ff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018991982.113.ajackson@ping>

CHam628781@aol.com writes:
> > Nah.  Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the
> > resources and reputation of the company.
> 
> Which is harder if you the people you are borrowing from know that you have
>  no way of spreading the risk.

Right, but the point is you don't need to have _ready_ cash.  You just need
assets which can be used to back a loan.
> 
> Fault is not always relevant from an insurance companies point of view. It 
> may be stuck with representing you whether it likes it or not.

Depends on how the insurance contract was written.

> > Many real-world large companies do exactly that.
> > 
> Not the sensible ones,

Many real-world companies are only insured for extremely large losses; you just
set the deductible high enough that it absorbs the vast majority of problems
directly.  Beyond a certain point, it's better for a company to risk going
bankrupt due to a major problem than pay out huge premiums (arguably,
bankruptcy law is itself a form of insurance).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:26:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:26:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Bruce Johnson asks
> 
>>How long did your party survive before the local residents 
>>rounded you  up and hung you?
>>
> 
> That was the problem.  They had friends.  We got back to 
> town, and they heard about it.  Later that day, when we were 
> strolling into the front foyer of the guest house were were 
> staying at, three men stepped into the room and opened up on 
> us with submachineguns.  Of the six people in our party, one 
> survived.  The three attackers died, but the locals were 
> steamed enough to shoot the survivor after hearing his tale.

I suspect the locals were *more* steamed about the firefights going on 
in public spaces. I'd wager that the 3 surviving members of that guys 
friends were fined heavily for the damage.

> It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
> principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
> friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
> received.

The real key to this is to understand what a LL0 world is like.

Probably quite polite and formal, since it's likely heavily armed...and 
the local citizenry is entirely likely to feel that maintaining public 
order is incumbent on all members of society, as well as enforcement, 
since LL0 worlds tend also to be low GOV worlds too.

A good one to spring on a bunch of unsuspecting PC's...land them 
someplace they're expecting to be Dodge City, and discover that it's 
anything but, that their 'uncivilized' behavior is quickly, but firmly 
corrected...permanently, if necessary...think a Heinleinian world of 
self-reliant, armed and polite strangers...
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBC9A4C.4000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

William Lane wrote:

> 
> Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
> everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
> info.

That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
XML to Cobol and back...

oBTRav> Captain finds engineer hip deep in the Jump drive controller 
with an exceptionally old-looking piece of hardware in his hands.

Captain: "Good lord, Scottie! That's a jump *tape* reader! What is that 
antique doing on my jump drive??"

Engineer: "Well Captain, we cannae find the right components to rrepair 
the drive controller. Urgvark" he points to a crazed looking Vargr 
assistant engineer, "...found this in a antique shop. We're tying it 
into the saircuit right now."

C: "But how will we control it? I haven't seen a jump tape in my life 
that wasn't in a museum!"

E:"Well Captain, I have a writing head from a holocorder here, we can 
connect it to the main computer, and have it translate the control 
instructions from the astrogation program to the correct patterns that a 
jump tape would have. It should work, in theory, sah. " Shouts "OK 
Urgvark! Give me some power..."

<SNAP> <Pop fsssssshhhhhh> "Turn it off! Turn it off!"

E: Through the smoke..."Ahh captain, we're going ta need some morrre 
time..."

C: weeps.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018993271.7515.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
> The real key to this is to understand what a LL0 world is like.
> 
> Probably quite polite and formal, since it's likely heavily armed...and 
> the local citizenry is entirely likely to feel that maintaining public 
> order is incumbent on all members of society, as well as enforcement, 
> since LL0 worlds tend also to be low GOV worlds too.

Well, the majority of LL0 worlds are very lightly populated as well, and quite
likely don't have much of anything recognizeable as 'public order' -- just some
isolated people.  Of course, then you have worlds like Efate.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:32 PM +1000 4/16/02, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
>(of radiation effects on fertility)
>>  Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in
>>  men, if you prefer)?
>
>Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
>the testis to ionising radiation.

Though it will need to be more pentrating since the ovaries are 
deeper in the body so it will depend on the kind of radiation? 
(Though it maybe that this is getting into to much details for rpgs 
that usualy feature "radiation").

>
>Larsen Whipsnade wrote :-
>>  GURPS, in Compendium II, handles this in the following manner.
>>  If a female has a lifetime dose of 250 rads, her offspring, and
>>  any problems they may have, are entirely at the GM's discretion.
>There probably won't be any offspring (permanent sterility in 75%).
>
>>  Realistic?  Yes.
>Nah, in GURPS it's usually an excuse for the GM to introduce Weird
>Mutant Powers (TM) <g>

I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the 
fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018978883.2225.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1018978883.2225.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330108b8e24c8654f3@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:41 AM -0700 4/16/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Texas Redshift writes:
>>  As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
>>  something:
>>
>>  At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
>>  Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
>>  judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
>
>Depends on the world.  There are canon references to 'government of men, not
>laws', which implies on the interstellar level it's not litigous per se, and
>annoying the local judge with frivolous suits is probably a poor idea.

That is consistent with a world where corporations conduct morally 
challenged acts without being continuously in court (to, at one 
extreme, being able to conduct trade wars on each other).

Also, if megacorps are as powerful as they are depicted, then should 
be able to avoid a situations where it is "easy" to sue them.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <20416.132856.6I9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.132856.6I9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330109b8e24d6388f8@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:28 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in
>  > near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near
>>  misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a
>>  single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?
>
>We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
>outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.

We are looking.  There is a program underway to catalog Earth 
crossing asteroids....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134553.3z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.134553.3z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010ab8e24dae9b06@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:45 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>>>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>>>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>>>todal forces are the same.
>>
>>  A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the
>>  size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity
>>  in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal
>>  gradient.
>
>Actually, the tidal force varies *linearly* with the distance from the
>center of mass of the body experiencing the tidal forces. Not *quite*
>the same thing as varying with the size.

The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also 
true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to 
another will depend on how far apart they are.

>
>As a good example, consider some folks in spacesuits tethered to a
>ship. The forces they experience depend on the distance and direction
>from the ship, not on the size of the ship.

True.  Though the difference in force between the guy in the space 
suit different parts of the ship will depend on the size of the ship.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <15c.be25cf3.29ede8fa@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 04:52:10PM -0400
References: <15c.be25cf3.29ede8fa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020416155914.C13552@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 04:52:10PM -0400, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> No, insurance companies tend to insure themselves against risk as well.

Yeah--from other insurance companies.  But there's no magic there: a
company as large as that collection of insurance companies can insure
itself.

And yes, if enough bad things happen at once the insurance system
would fail, just as a company would fail if it self-insured.

Generally, if you can afford it, self-insurance makes much more sense.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the people of
the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own
arms.                            --Samuel Adams, brewer and patriot

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020416081241.C25846@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.141048.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Both methane and ammonia will burn with oxygen. So you crack some water
>> (thermally or via electrolysis) and use the oxygen to burn the methane
>> and ammonia to N2, H20 & CO2. You condense the H20 and crack it to get
>> back the oxygen. The CO2 and N2 get either discrard or fed into the
>> life support system's atomosphere reprocessing section. 
>
> I don't see what I get from this.
>
> IMTU, there is only a small tank capable of holding LHyd with all the
> associated cryogenic systems, ultralow temperature pumps and such
> expensive stuff.  It primarily feeds the jump drive when entering
> jump.  The rest of the fuel space is designed to hold water which I
> can slowly refine using a fuel processor during jump.

If you are tanking from a body that has ammonia and/or methane in
addition to the water, you can shovel "ice" (or pump liquid
ammonia/methane) into a holding tank. It's not that hard to seperate
the methane, ammonia and water. And you'd need to be able to do that to
refuel from the colder iceballs anyway.

In the OTU, the tankage is for liquid hydrogen. If you are grabbing
water or whatever to "wilderness refuel" you have to extract and
liquefy the hydrogen before storing it in the tanks.

And BTW, you have to do more than just *cool* the hydrogen to get
liquid hydrogen. There are two forms of the hydrogen molecule. One has
the spins of the atoms parallel, the other has them opposing. 

One form is slightly more energetic than the other and left to itself,
will spontaneously convert to the lower energy form, releasing heat.
This takes place slowly. 

Unfortunately, it also releases enough heat to boil LH2! So you have to
use special catlysts to ensure that all the hydrogen is converted to
the low energy form before you put it in the tanks. Otherwise, the
spontaneous conversion will boil the tanks dry in a few hours. 

NASA had great fun with this problem until they found the catalysts
(fairly cheap, but they do add another step to the process of making
fuel). 

Because of this, converting water to LH2 on the fly isn't going to work
for stuff like the jump drive. You need the required fuel stored *as*
LH2 before you start.

> So the limit on how much fuel I can hold is how much oxygen is
> available to bind the hydrogen into water for my large (and cheap)
> tanks.  Discarding CO2 from burning methane is hence worse than just
> throwing away the methane.  I might extract some nitrogen from the
> ammonia to replenish any atmosphere losses, but that's about it.

No, because you aren't getting *hydrogen* when you refuel from an
iceball, just when you refuel by scooping a gas giant. And in that
case, you'll need a *lot* of oxygen, and need it fast. Check out how
much space *8* tons (mass) of liquid oxygen takes up. Because you'll
need 8 tons of oxygen for every ton of hydrogen. Remember, it takes
*nine* tons of water to produce *one* ton of hydrogen. And you'll have
to have to have *seperate* tanks for the 9 tons of water, the 8 tons of
LOX, and the 1 ton of LH2.

Storing *just* LH2 is a *lot* simpler.

When you refuel from an iceball you are getting one of the following:

Water
Water and ammonia
Water, ammonia and methane

So, as I said, you extract the oxygen from the water and store the
hydrogen.

You then use the extracted oxygen to convert the ammonia into
nitrogen and water. You keep as much of the nitrogen as you want, and
discard the rest. The water gets converted to LH2 and oxygen (ie you
*recover* the oxygen you extracted from the water you "mined").

Next, you use the oxygen (still not touching your original oxygen
supplies on board the ship) to convert the methane to CO2 and water.
The water gets processed as before, giving hydogen and oxygen.

You can either discard the CO2, *or* you can feed it thru the section
of your life support system that cracks CO2 into carbon and oxygen. And
yes, given a fusion power plant, as well as cryogenic gear, this is a
reasonable way of dealing with CO2 on board a ship. 

Matter of fact, odds are that part of the "filters" in the life support
system ammount to condensing excess water out of the air (there will
*always* be excess water as we produce it from the hydrogen in our food
and the oxygen we breathe). 

Next, the air will be flash heated (with or without a catalyst) to burn
all organic gases. Finally, a catalyst will be used to break down any
nitrogen oxides formed by the flash heating, and the O2 and N2 will be
put back in circulation, while the CO2 will be cracked into carbon and
oxygen. And actual chemical filters will deal with any remaining
contaminants (traces of stuff like chlorine & sulfur compounds, etc)

It's possible that smaller ships (and auxilluary craft) will just use
chemical filters to extract water vapor, CO2, and other contaminants).
LiOH to extract CO2, Various other things to extract water vapor, and
activated charcoal to get (most) of the other trace gases. 

But those will need changing and require "recharging" (basicly you heat
them to drive off the water/CO2/whatever).

Anyway, ships will be able to deal with converting CO2 to carbon and
oxygen. Getting rid of the carbon from processing a lot of methane will
be a major pain though. Some poor crewbeing will probably have to
either "shovel" what amounts to soot out of the gear and haul it to an
airlock to dump, or maybe (if you process stuff a bit differently) chop
slabs of graphite out of the processor. And, again dump them.

So methane would be something you might *not* want to process. But
there will be times when it's worth the hassle. 

Oh yeah, actually, the odds are you'd seperate the methane *first*,
simply because it will be the first component of the mix to turn into a
gas.

         melts   boils
         ------  ------
methane	 -182.4  -161.5
ammonia   -77.4   -33.3
water       0     100

So, as you heat the mix, first the methane liquefies, then it
vaporizes. You can discard it, or use oxygen to process it. Or, if you
do this a lit, you might have gear set up to directly crack the methane
into hydogen and carbon.

Next the ammonia liquefies and then vaporizes. And then when the water
melts, it would get dissolved in the water (great if you are
electrolyzing water, not so great otherwise). 

Again, you can either "burn" the ammonia with oxygen (I use quotes
because there are catalysts that'll make it happen at much lower temps)
or you might be equiped to "crack" it into nitrogen and hydrogen.
Cracking won't work nearly as well though, since both components are
gasses. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:08:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:08:41 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020416155310.3125.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20416.150551.5I5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> ObTrav:  There is a (Star Trek created?) stereotype of
> the engineer who can fix anything but no one can tell
> how he does it.  What other stereotypes are common in
> your games?

The "engineer as wizard" stereotype has existed *at least* as long as
widespread use of steam engines. And some would argue it goes back to
the old seige engineers of medieval and Roman times.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:09:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:09:19 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20416.150857.9F1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 02:16 PM 4/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>>
>> > In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
>> > starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
>> > stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
>>
>>Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right when the user no
>>longer understands what's going on behind the 'curtain'.
>
> Hell, for me that's today!  I can use my comp[uter, but for all I know, 
> this beige box is actually home to a tribe of magic pixes.

(uh-oh, he's beginning to catch on! :-)

> I still find it amazing and rather magical that this little bit of dreck 
> will be read by people on the other side of the planet (hi Jens and Hans!) 
> I sort of understand that it will be shuffled around by a lot of computers 
> that do that sort of thing, but beyond that?  Nothing.

It's actually *not* all that hard to understand. Really. But it
involves paying more attention to *details* than most folks care to. 

> "Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
>   with sex." - Fry, Futurama

Hmm. Must be looking at the wrong sites. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <OF7A3367D5.83EB7401-ON85256B9D.0057F13F@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <20416.151127.3N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> OBTRAV:
>
> The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
> Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
> engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
> Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
> other.
>
> Captain asks "What are you doing?"
>
> New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
> works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
>
> Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P

An *intelligent* captain will just chalk it up to "personal quirks" as
long as the job gets done. And if things seem to be working better than
he'd expect, he may wind up asking the engineer for more info about
Jabobo. <g>

If it works, don't knock it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com> <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net> <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020417081359.A28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> "Roche's Limit, which is the distance from a planet at which the
> planet's tidal force on a satellite (tending to stretch apart) is
> equal to the satellite's self-gravity (tending to hold it together)."
> (from http://utrao.as.utexas.edu/ast301/log/log22.html)

Anaother way to say the same thing is "where the net tidal gradient
becomes tensional in at least one direction".  Self-gravity *is* a
tidal force.


> As per the above, Roche's Limit is where these tidal forces (a
> tensional force) equal the compressional forces of an object's own
> gravity.

The compressional forces of an object's own gravity *are* tidal
gradients.  Roche's limit is where the sum of the external and
internal tides cancel (in one direction) for a body of given
composition.


> It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In
> another of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional
> and compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive
> me if I am interpreting you incorrectly).

Yes.  Consider a near-massless spaceship somewhere near the Earth,
with bow pointing directly outward from it.  A point on the bow is a
bit further from the Earth than the center, so the gravitational
attraction toward Earth's center is weaker.  Likewise, the
gravitational attraction is stronger at the stern.  This is the
tensional aspect of the tidal gradient.

Now consider points on the port and starboard.  Both feel the same
magnitude of gravitational acceleration, but the *direction* is
different.  The vector difference between the two results in an inward
(compressional) force.  Likewise for the "top" and "bottom" of the
ship.

So the external tides exert a compression force as well as a tensional
one.


Now consider a spacecraft with significant density.  In this case, the
same argument applies to give a tensional gradient (due to the Earth),
but now you have to add the self-gravity.  The bow experiences a weak
Earthward acceleration due to self-gravity, and the stern experiences
an outward force.  This sums with the Earth's tidal force to give a
result that could be either tensional or compressional, depending on
how close to Earth the starship is and on what it's density is.
(Compressional far from the Earth, possibly tensional closer in).

The top and bottom of the ship are subject to a sum of compressional
forces alone.


The actual mathematics is much simpler in many regards than the
example, but the result is the same.  The tidal gradient at any given
point is expressed as a matrix, with trace equal to the density at the
point in question.  The eigenvalues and eigenvectors of the matrix
tell you the magnitude and directions of the forces due to the
gradient.  Even a pebble in otherwise completely empty space has tidal
gradients inside and out, and those gradients are not appreciably
weaker than the tidal gradients around and within the Moon.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020417082001.B28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.

Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
a nitpick.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3cbf94aa.16351970@post.demon.co.uk>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

>That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
>wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
>convincing opposing argument:-)

What if you're charged by n+1 people with pointy sticks, where n is
the number of bullets you're carrying?

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:34:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3CBC7D4F.7020102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200204161741.EEV03115@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416183650.00b8f070@urbin.net>

At 12:36 PM 4/16/02 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>John T. Kwon wrote:
>>I got out of the car with the others, and asked the other driver if he 
>>had insurance.  He said, "No."  So I said to my friends, "I think we 
>>should wait for the police."  They laughed and said, "Hey stupid, there 
>>are no police."
>>So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the occupants of the 
>>other car without warning.  Then we went through their pockets for loose 
>>change.
>How long did your party survive before the local residents rounded you up 
>and hung you?

That's why he should have checked for witnesses first.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:35:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:35:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>

Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:

>>Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =3D20
>
>Shouldnt the hull code be Z? I though Y was for 1,000,000 to=20
>1,999,999. Z was for anything above that.=20

Y is for 1,000,000 to "the next stated level" - but there isn't one,
so I'm assuming it's just "over a million tons".  Z is "Reserved".

>>MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
>Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
>Architects fees? Anyone?

Standard cost.  If you *really* want to start mass-producing these
things, you scare me ;-)

I didn't include the architect's fees, but they'd be TCr 376,770.  The
kind of contract every naval architect dreams of.

Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:39:03 2002
Subject: Engineer Voodoo (was: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?)
References: <20416.151127.3N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CBCA7CB.11BDF34@premier.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > OBTRAV:
> >
> > The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
> > Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
> > engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
> > Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
> > other.
> >
> > Captain asks "What are you doing?"
> >
> > New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
> > works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
> >
> > Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P
> 
> An *intelligent* captain will just chalk it up to "personal quirks" as
> long as the job gets done. And if things seem to be working better than
> he'd expect, he may wind up asking the engineer for more info about
> Jabobo. <g>

Actually, given that "Voodoo is an animist faith. That is, objects and
natural phenomena are believed to possess holy significance, to possess
a soul [*]," this seems a not-unreasonable belief system for an engineer
to have, assuming that additional syncretism has added technology to the
Voodoo gumbo.

Imagine if the engineer's version of Voodoo included the Evangelicals'
drive to proselytize:

"Have you accepted Jabobo as your personal Loa?" ;-)

[*] Quoted from the following Web site:

http://www.swagga.com/voodoo.htm

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3cbf94aa.16351970@post.demon.co.uk>; from tml@stempest.demon.co.uk on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:20:42PM +0000
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net> <3cbf94aa.16351970@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020416164940.A14019@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:20:42PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> 
> >That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
> >wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
> >convincing opposing argument:-)
> 
> What if you're charged by n+1 people with pointy sticks, where n is
> the number of bullets you're carrying?

That's why the steel.  And if the number of people involved >> n/2,
then I'm probably going to be running anyway:-)

Of course, all this is silly because I've never been attacked and
don't typically engage in activities which increase my risk of being
attacked.  I'm a rather quiet sort.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20416.141048.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020416081241.C25846@freeman.little-possums.net> <20416.141048.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> And BTW, you have to do more than just *cool* the hydrogen to get
> liquid hydrogen. There are two forms of the hydrogen molecule. One has
> the spins of the atoms parallel, the other has them opposing. 

I'm quite aware of that.  I'm also aware of various maethods for
dealing with it at *our* tech level, let alone TL10.


> Because of this, converting water to LH2 on the fly isn't going to
> work for stuff like the jump drive.

That's why I said that there is an auxiliary fuel tank for the jump
drive.  Besides, does it say anywhere that the jump drive actually
needs *liquid* hydrogen, or is that just how it is stored prior to
use?

IMTU, it needs pure hydrogen.  The physical form is preferably ionised
at a temperature of a few hundred thousand degrees, but it needs a
*lot*, *fast*.  It's a bit hard to store tonnes of 100+ kK plasma for
any length of time, and LH2 is a nice compact way to hold pure
hydrogen ready for injection.


> You need the required fuel stored *as* LH2 before you start.

Even if this was true, that's exactly what the canonical "fuel
processor" does.  It converts impure hydrogen and hydrogen compounds
(such as water) into LH2.  It even gives a rate at which it produces
the stuff.  Do you exclude fuel processors from your Traveller
universe?  That's what it sounds like.


> Check out how much space *8* tons (mass) of liquid oxygen takes up.

I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?

When I scoop ice from an iceball, I get lots of hydrogen in the form
of water.  Water is a more compact way to store hydrogen than LH2.  So
I *keep* the water.  I run the ammonia, methane, or some more water
through the fuel processor to fill up the smaller LH2 tanks (possibly
extracting some nitrogen for life support), throw away all the
methane, and either keep or throw away the ammonia.


> And you'll have to have to have *seperate* tanks for the 9 tons of
> water, the 8 tons of LOX, and the 1 ton of LH2.

No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.

The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.


> Oh yeah, actually, the odds are you'd seperate the methane *first*,
> simply because it will be the first component of the mix to turn
> into a gas.

Yep, mainly so I can get rid of it before putting it in the tanks at
all.  Ammonia I can deal with later, since I don't need highly
expensive long-term cryogenic tanks to hold ammonia solution.  I can
separate it later if I want.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Refining Fuel
Message-ID: <200204162252.EFF02983@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ok, so can I put solid rock in the refiner?

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%
7B1F54AEED-A34B-411B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com> <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020417085805.D28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Of course :)

It varies with which rules, time period, and dataset you use, but my
figures are on the order of 100 PCr/year.  Never seen a 'P' prefix
used before?  10^15, in case anyone was wondering ;)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:59:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:59:38 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020416190105.CB76627A2E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020416155253.00a4d980@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:38:41 -0400, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

>Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from
>the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
>again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up
>during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and
>said, "Behold, Our God!".

"Glory be to the Bomb, and to the Holy Fallout, as it was in the Beginning."

Put me down as another half-kill.  (I rarely drink at the keyboard.  Not 
while reading THIS list, anyway.)

It's sure nice to find out what sort of people were guarding our nuclear 
deterrent, back in the bad old days.



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:01:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:01:09 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/16/02 3:50 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
> over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
> LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
> unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
> paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.
> 
> The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
> volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
> water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
> upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.
> 

Just curious, but what about storing H2 as hydrides?  Don't you get a higher
density?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:06:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:06:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Damn mind rapers
Message-ID: <20020416230522.61559.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

<Arlin J. Schofield- OC>
P2GM - Hey John, what is the general level of public
acceptance of psi's. I'm sure the military characters
who have been in action against the zho's (like Arlin)
wont be to comfartable with a psi around. I think
unless the public don't mind psi's that those
discussing them should at least try to be quiet ;)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <200204161837.EEX02352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.155109.2O0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The spot size for the projected SBL is around a foot in 
> diameter. The US Air Force is assuming that missiles will be 
> painted or coated to optimize reflectivity, and they also 
> anticipate that the missiles will spin to reduce the 
> effectiveness of the laser.  "Sand" or some sort of 
> particulate matter that interferes with the operation of the 
> beam, would have to be held in close proximity to the ship.  
> The beam has such a small spot size, that to effectively 
> maintain a density of sand which would reduce the 
> effectiveness of the beam means that you cannot allow it to 
> disperse.  There are also plasmas that can be formed that 
> might increase the reflectivity of the ship itself at the 
> expense of increasing the ship''s signature.

Check for old discussions of how sand probably works.

A summary is:

the particles are spheres, and highly refactive at laser wavelengths.
Thus a portion of the beam will be refelected back at the source
(helping to blind sensors) before absorbed beam energy can disrupt the
particle. And the portion of the energy that is transmitted is
defocused. 

The particles take a fair amount of energy to melt. While molten they
continue to retro-reflect part of the beam and disperse the rest.

They take even more energy to vaporize and form a plasma easily. The
plasma is opaque to laser energy and absorbs even *more* of the beam
energy.

So yet get some sensor blinding for free, and the plasma generation
makes the required sand density much lower than would otherwise be
required. 

This would also make for nice visual effects as beams hit clouds of sand.

> The main way that the SBL intends to defeat reflective 
> coatings, spinning, heavier construction, ablative coatings, 
> and other countermeasures is to scale up the power.  In the 
> case of missiles, they give good arguments as to why the 
> countermeasures are, within an ability to hold the beam on 
> target for four seconds, ineffective.  That is, with current 
> tech, the coatings and spinning are already factored into the 
> laser's design.  

Well, in space, outside of low orbit, stuff like sand and "smoke" tend
to be rather more effective, because they don't get left behind. 

They don't make it impossible to zap the target, just harder.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:08:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:08:35 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20416.152426.1u5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:36:12AM +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
>> 
>> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
>> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
>> to see is a cloud of dust ;)
>
> Unless he's the faster...
>
> That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
> wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
> convincing opposing argument:-)

Perhaps you've heard the story about two hikers confronted by a bear.
One starts running and the oother follows. The second gasps why "why
are you running, the bear can outrun us"

The first replies "I don't need to outriun *him*. Just *you*!"

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:09:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:09:14 2002
Subject: [TML] CT/Book 5 question
In-Reply-To: <200204160206.EDP04153@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.152658.1R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> OK.  Actually a Book 5 question.  Ship has partial 
> streamlining. Under the rules, it can do gas giant 
> refueling.  If it can move through an upper atmosphere like 
> that (presumably at some velocity - after all, we don't want 
> to spiral in), can you land such a ship on a world with a 
> standard atmosphere?

As I recall, partial streamlining does allow landing on such a world.

> How does an air/raft do it?  1-G acceleration.  You're riding 
> in a vehicle about the size of a HMMWV with the top down.

> Feel that wind in your hair...

Not necessarily. It can simply climb vertically (and slowly) until it
is out of the atmosphere. Then it can accerlerate until it reaches
orbital *velocity. 

Remember, it's *much* easier to reach orbital *altitude* than orbital
velocity. That's the principle behind several weapons for taking out
low altitude satellites. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:09:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:09:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.153558.2c9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
> something:
>
> At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
> Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
> judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
>
> Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
> Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?
>
> What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?

I don't think canon covers it. But given some of the things that canon
sources have going on, I suspect that "frivilous" lawsuits are
discouraged in some manner. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:11:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:11:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417085805.D28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018998647.1051.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?
> 
> Of course :)
> 
> It varies with which rules, time period, and dataset you use, but my
> figures are on the order of 100 PCr/year.  Never seen a 'P' prefix
> used before?  10^15, in case anyone was wondering ;)

Hm...my figure seems to be at 103PCr/year, which is well within the margin of
error.  Of course, there's a fairly significant problem with the old Atlas of
the Imperium data -- there's only around 9,000 imperial worlds, not the 11,000
there's supposed to be.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018998784.5627.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
> over

Which is, based on the existence of drop tanks, equal to the total fuel
requirement of jump.  Water tanks are mostly useful for jumping _twice_.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:14:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:14:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Indistinguishable from Magic
In-Reply-To: <20020416190105.CB76627A2E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020416160033.00a50b10@mailhost.efn.org>

(was: How many credits is that?)

For a while now, I've taken Clarke's Law to apply all the way back to the 
first simple machines.  To someone who's never seen one before, even a 
lever is magical:  you push DOWN, and a much heavier thing on the other end 
goes UP, easily.  Thus, any technology that exceeds the capabilities of the 
unaided human body (strength, sight, speed, etc) is "magic."

It can even be argued that knowing (or thinking one knows) how something 
works does not make it less magic.  Surely the hypothetical medieval wizard 
would know as much about the alchemical and astrological correspondences, 
sacred geometry, the names of angels, and other important data about his 
profession as a telecom engineer does about phones and networks and 
switches.  And each would be equally convinced the other was practicing 
black witchcraft.

And I note that people still leave out tributes to faeries - only now they 
call them gremlins or Greys, to name but two of the new forms.

--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:16:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:16:55 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020416231354.82331.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's
going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

What, because you have dust in your veins instead of
blood?  ;-)
END QUOTE

No, because I am a vampire from buffy:the vampire
slayer ;P

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020416231641.82811.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Unless he's the faster...

That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy
stick all he wants.  But my lead and steel can, I
feel, come up with quite a convincing opposing
argument:-)
END QUOTE

Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
pointy stick :)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:18:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:18:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204150043.RAA22864@molly.iii.com> from "Anthony Jackson" at Apr 14, 2002 05:43:03 PM
Message-ID: <200204162126.g3GLQsn00991@localhost.uia.net>

> Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
> network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
> just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.
> 
> In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
> a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
> wormholes have to share a reference frame.

I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20416.155109.2O0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018999846.3010.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
> 
> The particles take a fair amount of energy to melt. While molten they
> continue to retro-reflect part of the beam and disperse the rest.
> 
> They take even more energy to vaporize and form a plasma easily. The
> plasma is opaque to laser energy and absorbs even *more* of the beam
> energy.

Now, let's consider a typical example: a typical TTL13 X-ray laser.  It focuses
to a beam 1 cm wide, with an unclear duration; we'll assume 100 milliseconds,
as that will avoid significant problems with the beam impact point moving.  The
total beam energy is on the order of 400 megajoules, and has a damage value
(T4) of 50.

The target is a 200 dton sphere, with a cross-section of 240 square meters. 
One can at AV 50 is 320 kilograms.  Since the beam has a cross-section of
0.0001 m^2, it actually strikes 0.13 grams of sand.

As it happens, X-rays can go through that much material without even worrying
about getting it out of the way.  Ignoring that, if we assume the 'sand' is
synthetic diamond, it has a heat of vaporization of 8 kilojoules.  Further
ignoring the fact that X-rays don't generally reflect very well, through a
variety of tricks we'll argue that the actual energy of vaporization is 1
megajoule (125x greater).

399 megajoules to go.  Well, perhaps the vapor is opaque.  Let's add another
megajoule to the vapor, heating it up to some obscene temperature, and assume
that 90% of the absorbed energy is lost to immediate reradiation.  The
remaining 100 kilojoules causes the gas in the path of the laser to explode
outwards, with an average velocity of 39 kilometers per second.  1 microsecond
later, the plasma has had its density drop by a factor of around 10, which
should allow the X-rays to shine through.  Since the power output is 4
megajoules per microsecond, the total energy absorbed by the sand is maybe 5
megajoules.  Gee, only another 80x increase in efficiency and we'll actually
stop the beam.

> Well, in space, outside of low orbit, stuff like sand and "smoke" tend
> to be rather more effective, because they don't get left behind. 

Well, if you don't use any thrust and use gravetics to prevent the stuff from
wandering, sure.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204162126.g3GLQsn00991@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019000154.7419.ajackson@ping>

jimv writes:

> I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim

All methods of using FTL to accomplish time travel rely on the fact that for
any form of FTL movement, there exists a reference frame where in some
direction or another, the FTL movement appears to be going backwards in time. 
Therefore, you move, shift velocity to a different reference frame, and then
reverse the trip.  The trip took positive time according to the ship's onboard
time, but negative time according to an outside observer.

If you require that all FTL movement occur within a single reference frame, you
can't change reference frames to make the round trip, and total trip time
always remains positive, though different reference frames will disagree as to
how the time requirement was divided up, and may claim that certain sections of
the trip took negative amounts of time.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damn mind rapers
Message-ID: <200204162344.EFH02038@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Psis are a military and internal security necessity.  I think 
that the whole B5 attitude towards them was pretty good.  
IBIS makes covert use of them.  The military intel people 
make use of them.  For some reason Vilani and Solomani aren't 
any good at PK or teleportation. That's something the Zhodani 
are good at.  Of course, it's not secret in the Zhodani 
Consulate - it's a way of life.

People do tend to dislike them, but that's the popular view.  
Many corporations use telepaths to verify truth and intent 
when signing major contracts.

Then again, they aren't common.  IBIS has a special division 
that trains them.  Rumor has it that they *are* the Psionics 
Institute.  One more reason that people don't trust the 
trained ones.  Untrained, well, some people can't help the 
way they were born.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
Message-ID: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see 
<http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file 
their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).

Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and 
although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the 
end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned 
for a financial year until after you've earned it.

Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
timetable works??

[ BTW, I'm only asking for a quick reply to a query. Anything further 
(anti-IRS rants, full 20-page technical descriptions of the US economy, 
etc etc) probably should go to the discussion list.  %^P  ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <3CBD64AF.31847.709971@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 20:32, Robert O'Connor wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
> (of radiation effects on fertility)
> > Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
> > men, if you prefer)?
> 
> Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
> the testis to ionising radiation.

How penetrating is ionising radiation in general? If it's not very 
penetrating there should be some adjustment made to allow for the 
ovaries being protected by being inside, rather than outside the torso.
 

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:04:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:04:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20416.134013.8u0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020416031009.2bda525e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CBD64AF.11090.709A27@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 13:40, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> And I'm rather suspicious of the masses David Weber gives for a lot of
> the ships in the Honor Harrington stuff too.

I'm rather suspicious of a lot of things in those books. As for the 
mass, I think he used a square when he should have used a cube law.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:05:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:05:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
In-Reply-To: <OFF290291A.CB37BC25-ONCA256B9D.0017EFD0@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3CBD64AF.28128.7098A2@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 16:17, david.d.jaques-watson@centrel wrote:

> You are not mistaken. It's mentioned in Striker Book 2, part of the 
> "Integrating with Traveller" section.
> 
> My bet is that it goes back to "Starship Troopers".

I'm fairly sure it doesn't, because in ST the navy didn't seem to 
provide fire support, just softening bombardments with nukes.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:06:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:06:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
References: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>


david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> 
> Dear Folks -
> 
> In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see
> <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file
> their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
> 
> Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and
> although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the
> end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned
> for a financial year until after you've earned it.
> 
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's
> timetable works??

Earnings are based on calendar year (1 Jan - 31 Dec).  We receive an
official statement from our employers ("W-2" form) of our earnings,
taxable earnings (not always the same) and taxes withheld no later than
31 Jan of the next year.  We then have until 15 April to file our tax
paperwork (Form 1040, in one of several variations) and pay any tax due.

For further information, check:

http://www.irs.gov

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <3CBD66E0.27266.792890@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 13:49, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
> of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
> something that will be directly proportional to it.

It's simple - the apparent size of the world is what matters. You see 
the jump drives get frightened if they see large opjects in the shy, 
and they don't work well under stress.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:14:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:14:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
References: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au> <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CBCBDFA.1AA77C4E@premier.net>

John Groth wrote:

<<snip>>
> 
> Earnings are based on calendar year (1 Jan - 31 Dec).  We receive an
> official statement from our employers ("W-2" form) of our earnings,
> taxable earnings (not always the same) and taxes withheld no later than
> 31 Jan of the next year.

Just to clarify:

Earnings are based on calendar year (01 Jan X0 - 31 Dec X0), and the W-2
form should be received no later than 31 Jan X1.

Why US income taxes are based on calendar years, while the Federal
government's fiscal years run from 01 Oct X0 - 30 Sep X1 (said year
being referred to as Fiscal Year X1) is beyond me.

Note also that different states may have income tax filing dates that
differ from that of the Federal government....

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:21:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:21:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi,

> There are "clusters". And it's *really* unlikely that any sizable body
> will have a density much above Mercury's. At least in a "normal"
> system. The planets that form around supernova remnants are likely to
> be very different.

Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

Besides, what's "normal" ? Our solar system could be the odd one out, for
all we know. Until we survey a few others, I'd say it was not a good idea to
make assumptions concerning the frequency of systems like ours. Consider the
size of our moon to the Earth, for example. If it hadn't have been for a
body the size of Mars hitting the just-born Earth, the Earth would have been
larger and the moon non-existent, with dramatic effects on evolution and
culture thereafter. The chances of that collision happening may have been
vanishingly small, making the Earth Moon system unique.

Finally, all non-jovian planets form from Supernova remnants. That's what
(a) manufactures the heavier elements in the first place, and (b) creates a
large cloud of particulate and gas that condenses to form a new star. The
presence of anything above the lighter elements in the solar system implies
that the Sun and its family owe their existence to the previous catastrophic
death of a long dead star.

If you are referring to oddities like pulsar planets here, then I'd agree
they would probably be denser if they formed from debris. But then, its more
likely that a pulsar has captured a body ejected from another system, as
supernovas tend to clear the area near the site of the explosion and drive
all the suitable accretion material well away from the pulsar itself. That
Hubble image of the 1987A (?, can't remember the designation now) supernova
remnant shows this in practice - a huge shockwave travelling at relativistic
velocities away from the pulsar corem driving superheated gas and
particulate with it.

> Ain't gonna happen. The abundance of materials in the cloud of dust and
> gas a system forms from means that anything with a substantial iron
> core will have a lot more rocky material overlying it.

Just because it's less likely doesn't mean it won't happen. A few years ago,
superjovians in the inner system were thought impossible, and then guess
what they found ?

Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
come up eventually.

> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.

Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

> I'm not going to quit indicating emphasis. And the alternatives are
> asterisks or underlines and the asterisks are much easier to hit.

Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
all.

> Yes, it's harder to read a sentence where you individually emphasize
> each word with them. But that's not what I'm doing.

No, but it made the point - the *'s draw your eyes to particular key words
and make the sentence harder to read.

> As for patronizing, I'm not responsible for what you read into what I
> write.

Hah ! Have you ever thought of a career in politics ? :-)

Seriously, if you decide to emphasize particular words, then you are
attempting to enforce those words and colour the interpretation of the
sentence, which is what emphasis is all about anyway. Take the sentence
above, "it's *really* unlikely" - there was no need to emphasize the word
"really" here at all. The wording was more than sufficient. All you achieved
was to add a dismissive/patronising tone, as if to say "it's so unlikely
that it's not even worth considering, so I am not going to".

> Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
> of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
> something that will be directly proportional to it.

Why does it have to vary with the inverse cube of the distance ? That
automatically makes the assumption that I argued against, which is "just
because the figures fit it must be right". I'd agree that the tidal figures
being identical for a given density across all world sizes seems convincing,
until you remember that densities are not going to be uniform at all. Then
the "figures matching" evidence breaks down (IIRC, Larger rocky/terrestrial
worlds are likely to have a higher density, as their proto-cores must have
been more massive during accretion to gain the additonal mass in the first
place - therefore as you go from UWP Size 1 to A, the density is likely to
increase, and the tidal force likewise).

Might it not make more sense to say that 100 diameters was a simplification
for the game, and an arbitrary value, rather than cook the Physics books to
justify it ? If you are going to make a "realistic-feel" limit for Jump
Drives, it would make more sense to define it in terms of the gravitational
field strength and forget the diameters thing entirely, except maybe as a
passing comment such as "for Earth this occurs at 100 planetary diameters".

Regards

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <B8E20E0C.3AB65%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/16/02 4:56 PM, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au at
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

> Dear Folks -
> 
> In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see
> <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file
> their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
> 
> Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and
> although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the
> end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned
> for a financial year until after you've earned it.
> 
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's
> timetable works??

Tax year runs January 1 through December 31, with filing not later than
April 15 the following year unless and extension is granted.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416183650.00b8f070@urbin.net>
References: <3CBC7D4F.7020102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CBD6995.16638.83BD87@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 18:37, Mark Urbin wrote:

> >How long did your party survive before the local residents rounded you up 
> >and hung you?
> 
> That's why he should have checked for witnesses first.

Yep. Witnesses are easier to deal with if you can shoot them before 
they know what's going on.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Damn mind rapers
Message-ID: <20020417003134.71770.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

My apoligise to the TML for that PBEM post, in future
must check address before posting. Agian my apoligies.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEDLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> >
> > Dear Folks -
> >
> > In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see
> > <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens
> have to file
> > their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
> >
> > Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and
> > although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the
> > end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned
> > for a financial year until after you've earned it.
> >
> > Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's
> > timetable works??
>
> Earnings are based on calendar year (1 Jan - 31 Dec).  We receive an
> official statement from our employers ("W-2" form) of our earnings,
> taxable earnings (not always the same) and taxes withheld no later than
> 31 Jan of the next year.  We then have until 15 April to file our tax
> paperwork (Form 1040, in one of several variations) and pay any tax due.
>
> For further information, check:
>
> http://www.irs.gov

Well, that sounds all nice and simple.

Over here in blighty, our tax year runs 5th April - 5th April, and the tax
calculations are arcane mysteries. A plethora of forms (P14, P35, P60, et
al) exist for the end of year.

And then, your accountant miscalculates and you end up 465.40 adrift
because he went to a calculator feeding frenzy and slipped on the keys. Such
is life.

ObTrav: What about tax returns in the Imperium ? In particular, what about
tax returns for expatriot traders and the like - do they pay tax where their
ship is registered, or pro rata per world they stay on, or what ?

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
Message-ID: <F195IuSRhAssGzeKkWG0000635c@hotmail.com>

>>And I'm rather suspicious of the masses David Weber gives for a lot of
>>the ships in the Honor Harrington stuff too.
>
>I'm rather suspicious of a lot of things in those books. As for the
>mass, I think he used a square when he should have used a cube law.
>
If the ships have any significant armour then he should have used both 
(square for armour and cube for more or less everything else) assuming he 
didn't set a fixed ratio between volume and armour mass. There should also 
be a constant term and some terms with fractional powers but they might be 
small enough to ignore. It's probably easier and more accurate to build the 
ships FFS/Vehicles style.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <20020416221005.288A827A31@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00c001c1e5aa$dad24960$50b18b90@computer>

> From: Derek Wildstar
> while a lot has been written about the various Traveller militaries, I
> don't think anyone has ever written a supplement about lawyers and
> lawsuits in the Imperium.  ;-)

Hmm....  No, I think you are right - we don't know much about lawyers in the
OTU.

We do, however, know that all accountants have cutlass skill, that all
philosophers wear black berets, and that it is not wise to assume that
everyone who wears a black beret is necessarily a philosopher.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <20020416154004.A42C527A0E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00bd01c1e5aa$d8c25520$50b18b90@computer>

From: James Ramsay
> Oh and a funny thing here in Australia, three of our sailors where
> arrested for damaging earth moving equipment! And these people are
> protecting our waters?

Well of course they damaged it!  They thought earth was just like water.

Or do you mean they were in _possession_ of damaging earth moving equipment?
I would have thought that was the point of the navy - damaging things and
moving earth around.

Maybe they were trying to use the earth moving equipment to protect our
waters by burying them?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com










From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <00bf01c1e5aa$da2a70a0$50b18b90@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon"
> So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the occupants of the
> other car without warning.  Then we went through their pockets for loose
> change.

Wow.  What an incredibly bad idea...  I don't think I've met a single ref
who would have let you get away with that. About the only way you could have
would be if the ref didn't want to have to waste time while you rolled up
new characters.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:56:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:56:30 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <00bc01c1e5aa$d823a420$50b18b90@computer>

From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> That's the sort of magical transformation that all those alchemists dreamt
> about! (Actually, they would have been happy with just a lump of gold, but
> you get my drift... ;-).

Strictly speaking, the goals of alchemy were religious/spiritual.  The
"turning lead to gold" thing was a metaphor.

Of course, there might have been some alchemists that didn't understand
that.  There certainly were a bunch of non-alchemists that didn't, and
handed over plenty of gold to alchemists for the latter to turn to lead for
them.

I've always found it interesting that people like Newton and Boyle were
alchemists.  After all, alchemists were basically wizards.  This raises some
wonderful possibilities.  The British government basically legalised a coven
of witches.  What deals were made to accomplish this?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:57:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:57:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170054.EFJ05650@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

A Los Alamos report

LA-3126-MS           
Pion-nucleon elastic scattering experiments with
high intensity meson beams

How do I get a copy?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:57:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:57:48 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416190104.2243227A2D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00be01c1e5aa$d9841e80$50b18b90@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon" 
> Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from 
> the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
> again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up 
> during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and 
> said, "Behold, Our God!".

Yeah, well, you can rack up another keyboard kill for this...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:59:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:59:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <20020416221005.288A827A31@mail.travellercentral.com> <00c001c1e5aa$dad24960$50b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3CBCC836.201FC590@premier.net>


Alan Bradley wrote:
> 
> > From: Derek Wildstar
> > while a lot has been written about the various Traveller militaries, I
> > don't think anyone has ever written a supplement about lawyers and
> > lawsuits in the Imperium.  ;-)
> 
> Hmm....  No, I think you are right - we don't know much about lawyers in the
> OTU.
> 
> We do, however, know that all accountants have cutlass skill, that all
> philosophers wear black berets, and that it is not wise to assume that
> everyone who wears a black beret is necessarily a philosopher.

I've also mentioned that AuricTech Shipyards (quasi-canon, as the firm
is described in _101 Corporations_) has a contingent of "suits": lawyers
in battledress. ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204170054.EFJ05650@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019005361.2749.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> A Los Alamos report
> 
> LA-3126-MS           
> Pion-nucleon elastic scattering experiments with
> high intensity meson beams
> 
> How do I get a copy?

Somehow, I suspect it would be either incomprehensible or horribly boring even
if you requested it.  In any case, these aren't traveller mesons, since they
seem to actually interact with matter, as opposed to mystically passing through
it without interaction ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LAMPF - a meson facility!
Message-ID: <200204170105.EFJ07268@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Evidently home to the world's most powerful proton 
accelerator (800 MeV).  There's an article about how they 
have to treat items that were in the "hot cell" which 
were "target processed".  These items are apparently 
radioactive after the beam hits them (whether the beam is a 
proton beam or neutron beam).

They can also produce a beam of high energy neutrons by 
striking a tantalum screen with the proton beam.

ObTrav:  After your ship is hit by a meson weapon, assuming 
you're still alive, is the ship a radioactive wreck?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020417011017.28326.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Or do you mean they were in _possession_ of damaging
earth moving equipment? I would have thought that was
the point of the navy - damaging things and moving
earth around.
END QUOTE

Now they damaged some earth moving equipment. However
it was civilian earth moving equipment! Ive said it
before and I will say it agin I am sooooo glad
Australia doesn't have nukes!

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #413 - 48 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020417010107.F3AC9279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020417010107.F3AC9279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <mripbu88p8l3cb85uuh4h4600e5ob0gkac@4ax.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 17:59:21 -0700, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
wrote:

>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:56:56 +1000
>Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>Dear Folks -

>In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see 
><http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file 
>their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).

>Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and 
>although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the 
>end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned 
>for a financial year until after you've earned it.

>Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
>timetable works??

Unless your company specifically indicates otherwise, fiscal years for IRS
purposes are 01/01 to 31/12.  Filing deadline is 15/4 for the prior tax
year.  You can apply for an extension until 15/8, but if you have a tax
liability (i.e., you need to pay rather than receiving a refund) you must
pay by 15/4.


--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net> <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020417114559.A29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Just curious, but what about storing H2 as hydrides?  Don't you get
> a higher density?

Not really.  Hydrides are a form of hydrogen storage with the
advantages of requiring little energy to extract and of being
relatively safe, cheap and reusable.  The best quoted hydride storage
I found on the Web had a hydrogen storage capacity of 95 kg/m^3 at
pressures near 1 atm (assuming bulk solid, which it wouldn't be).
That's better than liquid hydrogen, but lower than water.

Once you have hydrogen-driven fusion power, the energy cost to extract
hydrogen from water becomes pretty much irrelevant.  The expense of
even the cheapest metal hydride storage grossly exceeds that of water
tanks, as well as being a lot heavier.


- Tim




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018998784.5627.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1018998784.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020417114826.B29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
[ Jump fuel requirements ]
> Which is, based on the existence of drop tanks, equal to the total
> fuel requirement of jump.

Please, let's not start the drop-tank "Canon says this!  No, that's
contradicted by *that*" flamewar again.  I did very carefully specify
the requirements applied to My Traveller universe for a reason.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:49:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:49:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170147.EFL02200@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>In any case, these aren't traveller mesons, since=
 they
>seem to actually interact with matter, as opposed to =

>mystically passing through it without interaction ;)

There seems to =
be a major misconception about meson beams in =

Traveller. I still remember reading the original JTAS article.

A semi=
stable meson produced either in a neutral =

form with a mass 264 times that of an electron =

and a mean lifetime of 8.4 =D7 10^17 seconds =

or in a positively or negatively charged form =

with a mass 273 times that of an electron and a =

mean lifetime of 2.6 =D7 10^8 seconds. =

Also called pi meson.

The neutral pion decays in about 10^15 sec, =

usually into a pair of photons but occasionally =

into a positron-electron pair and a photon. Gamma ray photons.

The Tr=
aveller meson was described in an old JTAS
article.  It is a pi neutral=
 meson.  It has no
magical non-interaction properties - it is merely
v=
ery highly penetrating, as cosmic rays (which are
relativistic pi meson=
s) are.  The reason that cosmic =

rays don't make it to the ground is that they decay
before they get low=
er (the atmosphere does slow them
down).  A ship targeted by a relativi=
stic beam tuned
to precipitate the decay of all of its pions a short
d=
istance into the target is a meson gun.

There were experimental radia=
tion treatment machines
designed on this principle, to put radiation in=
to =

specific areas of a patient.

The LAMPF facility at Los Alamos is the =
most powerful
meson accelerator in the world, at 800 Mev.  It was
orig=
inally built in 1968, and has been upgraded over
time.

The Los Alamo=
s National Laboratory proposes =

to construct a scientifically broadly based =

facility using the existing Los Alamos Meson =

Physics Facility (LAMPF) accelerator as =

its injector. Both the Canadian and Los Alamos =

proposals have the capability of providing a =

hundredfold increase in the intensity of =

certain meson and hadron beams over those =

available today. That's 80 GeV.
________________
"Imposed armistices .=
 . . artificially =

freeze conflict and perpetuate a state =

of war indefinitely by shielding the =

weaker side from the consequences of =

refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.182943.8V3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Bruce Johnson asks
>>
>>How long did your party survive before the local residents 
>>rounded you  up and hung you?
>>
> That was the problem.  They had friends.  We got back to 
> town, and they heard about it.  Later that day, when we were 
> strolling into the front foyer of the guest house were were 
> staying at, three men stepped into the room and opened up on 
> us with submachineguns.  Of the six people in our party, one 
> survived.  The three attackers died, but the locals were 
> steamed enough to shoot the survivor after hearing his tale.

Congratulations on rediscovering the principle of the blood feud.

> It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
> principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
> friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
> received.

Also, never *ever* attack someone who has a family. Especially a tight
knit one.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:05:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:05:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <p0433010ab8e24dae9b06@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20416.190000.0p2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:45 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>>  At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>>>>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>>>>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>>>>todal forces are the same.
>>>
>>>  A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the
>>>  size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity
>>>  in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal
>>>  gradient.
>>
>>Actually, the tidal force varies *linearly* with the distance from the
>>center of mass of the body experiencing the tidal forces. Not *quite*
>>the same thing as varying with the size.
>
> The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also 
> true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to 
> another will depend on how far apart they are.

You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
forces). 

>>As a good example, consider some folks in spacesuits tethered to a
>>ship. The forces they experience depend on the distance and direction
>>from the ship, not on the size of the ship.
>
> True.  Though the difference in force between the guy in the space 
> suit different parts of the ship will depend on the size of the ship.

No. I'm talking about the tidal forces on the guy in the suit generated
by the fact that the ship he's attached to is in orbit about a planet.

The forces he experiences at 100 meters from the center of the ship are
ten times those he'd experience at 10 meters (in the same direction).
 
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:06:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:06:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417085805.D28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.190553.2F8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Stephen Tempest wrote:
>> Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?
>
> Of course :)
>
> It varies with which rules, time period, and dataset you use, but my
> figures are on the order of 100 PCr/year.  Never seen a 'P' prefix
> used before?  10^15, in case anyone was wondering ;)

Y	yotta	10^24
Z	zetta	10^21
E	exa	10^18
P	peta	10^15
T	tera	10^12
G	giga	10^9
M	mega	10^6
k	kilo	10^3
h	hecto	10^2
da	deka	10^1

The prefixes go all the way down to 10^-24 too, but those aren't likely
to come up in our discussions.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:07:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:07:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020417120609.C29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Brick wrote:
> If you are going to make a "realistic-feel" limit for Jump Drives,
> it would make more sense to define it in terms of the gravitational
> field strength and forget the diameters thing entirely, except maybe
> as a passing comment such as "for Earth this occurs at 100 planetary
> diameters".


That's exactly what I'm doing.  The tidal gradient *is* the
gravitational field.  Acceleration is coordinate-dependent, and not
intrinsic to gravity.

It so happens that it works out very similar in behaviour to a
diameter based rule, which is an added bonus.  On the other hand, the
fact that the two rules give very similar results may be considered a
problem -- certainly it seems to have caused a lot of confusion here!


- Tim



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
In-Reply-To: <3CBC9A4C.4000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416222702.02624008@192.168.0.1>

At 02:40 PM 4/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>William Lane wrote:
>
>>Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
>>everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
>>info.
>
>That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write XML 
>to Cobol and back...


Way cool!  Can I add this to my Traveller Maintenance Blues page?
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html>

This will great with your other great bit on the subject:
Captain to new crewmember:

"Well, the damn nic in the aft engineering workstation died a month ago, 
and since it's a 150 year old model, it's been hard to find parts...so we 
just do everything by hand...I know, I know, it's a pain, and someday we're 
gonna have to jump on less than 12 hours notice...I'll get _around_ to it, 
ok? Now go pound on the forward stab'rd ventilation controller, the damn 
relay's stuck closed again, and if that keeps upit's gonna be like an 
icebox in the passenger cabins again."


>oBTRav> Captain finds engineer hip deep in the Jump drive controller with 
>an exceptionally old-looking piece of hardware in his hands.
>
>Captain: "Good lord, Scottie! That's a jump *tape* reader! What is that 
>antique doing on my jump drive??"
>
>Engineer: "Well Captain, we cannae find the right components to rrepair 
>the drive controller. Urgvark" he points to a crazed looking Vargr 
>assistant engineer, "...found this in a antique shop. We're tying it into 
>the saircuit right now."
>
>C: "But how will we control it? I haven't seen a jump tape in my life that 
>wasn't in a museum!"
>
>E:"Well Captain, I have a writing head from a holocorder here, we can 
>connect it to the main computer, and have it translate the control 
>instructions from the astrogation program to the correct patterns that a 
>jump tape would have. It should work, in theory, sah. " Shouts "OK 
>Urgvark! Give me some power..."
>
><SNAP> <Pop fsssssshhhhhh> "Turn it off! Turn it off!"
>
>E: Through the smoke..."Ahh captain, we're going ta need some morrre time..."
>
>C: weeps.
>
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170239.TAA01546@ping.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Anthony Jackson says
>>In any case, these aren't traveller mesons, since they
>>seem to actually interact with matter, as opposed to 
>>mystically passing through it without interaction ;)
>
>There seems to be a major misconception about meson beams in 
>Traveller. I still remember reading the original JTAS article.

Nah.  Meson beams have a number of clearly non-physical properties, starting
with the magical 'timed delay'.

>A semistable meson produced either in a neutral 
>form with a mass 264 times that of an electron 
>and a mean lifetime of 8.4  10^17 seconds 
>or in a positively or negatively charged form 
>with a mass 273 times that of an electron and a 
>mean lifetime of 2.6  10^8 seconds. 
>Also called pi meson.

Well, assuming 'lifespan' is half-life, neutral pion is a bit off 
(6.63x10^-17s), charged pion is insanely off (3.76x10^-8), and both
interact via the strong force, giving them penetration not significantly
different from protons at the same energy levels.  Among common partiles,
the best penetrator would be the muon (sometimes called the mu meson,
though it's not a meson), as it's fairly massive (avoiding the effects
that bleed energy off electrons) and doesn't interact via the strong
force.  It also has as longer lifespan than any type of pion (3.17x10^-6).
A teravolt accelerator might have usable range in space combat.

>The Traveller meson was described in an old JTAS
>article.  It is a pi neutral meson.  It has no
>magical non-interaction properties - it is merely
>very highly penetrating, as cosmic rays (which are
>relativistic pi mesons) are.  The reason that cosmic 
>rays don't make it to the ground is that they decay
>before they get lower (the atmosphere does slow them
>down).  A ship targeted by a relativistic beam tuned
>to precipitate the decay of all of its pions a short
>distance into the target is a meson gun.

The decay process described above is clearly magical, since fundamental 
particles don't decay at a fixed time, they simply have a normal logarithmic
decay and will thus have the largest number of decays right in front of the
barrel.  It also requires utterly insane energy levels for neutral pions to
have any range (by the abbreviations given elsewhere, somewhere around 100
YEv).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20416.182943.8V3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204161937200.17414-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Congratulations on rediscovering the principle of the blood feud.
> 
> > It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
> > principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
> > friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
> > received.
> 
> Also, never *ever* attack someone who has a family. Especially a tight
> knit one.
> 
Don't attack people with seriously dysfunctional families, either.

In any given moment, at least 50% of my relatives aren't speaking to at
least one other relative.  That doesn't mean they wouldn't ALL get
together and kick your ass if you attacked one of us-- the principle as
far as I can tell is that we're the only people who are allowed to hurt
us.  I was very, very surprised when my brother, who is on crack half the
time and with whom I can rarely have a civil conversation due to his
racism, sexism and homophobia, decided he was going after my ex-husband,
and I was the only person on earth who was able to stop him.  And did,
because Vince isn't worth that kind of trouble and Tripp doesn't need
another strike toward the three.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170250.EFN02270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson
>
>Nah.  Meson beams have a number of clearly non-physical 
>properties, starting with the magical 'timed delay'.
>

There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes 
are for mesons that are *not* in motion.

Mesons that are moving at relativistic velocities last a 
*lot* longer.  Otherwise, cosmic rays would never pass down 
into our upper atmosphere.

The decay times listed are also from a Los Alamos website.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <3CBD64AF.31847.709971@localhost>
References: <3CBD64AF.31847.709971@localhost>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8e293c05231@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:03 PM +1200 4/17/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 16 Apr 2002 at 20:32, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>
>>  Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
>>  (of radiation effects on fertility)
>>  > Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in
>>  > men, if you prefer)?
>>
>>  Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
>>  the testis to ionising radiation.
>
>How penetrating is ionising radiation in general? If it's not very
>penetrating there should be some adjustment made to allow for the
>ovaries being protected by being inside, rather than outside the torso.

Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can 
easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the 
skin (or more than a meter or two of air).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.190000.0p2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.190000.0p2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8e294f89b54@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:00 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>  > The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also
>>  true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to
>>  another will depend on how far apart they are.
>
>You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
>depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
>ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
>forces).

I'm not sure what force you are talking about.  The force on any one 
part of the ship is the force of gravity.  Tidal forces are the 
relative difference in forces between different parts of an object.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Qiuck Query on US Tax Returns
Message-ID: <3CBCE57F.316C0F85@mail.cswnet.com>

Further clarifications to what John Groth wrote:

>Earnings are based on calendar year (01 Jan X0 - 31 Dec X0), and the >W-2 form should be received no later than 31 Jan X1.

There is a grace period for employers sending out W-2 forms. While the
forms themselves must go out 1/31, taxpayers who have not recieved them
cannot contact the IRS until 2/15.

April 15 is the tax deadline. Extensions to file the taxes are allowed,
but extensions for paying the taxes are not. Thus if you owe and take an
extension you still wind up paying penalties and interest.

>Note also that different states may have income tax filing dates that
>differ from that of the Federal government....

Examples: Arkansas and Louisiana, both file taxes 1 month after the
Federal return, on 5/15.

California requires its taxes on 4/15, but grants an automatic extension
for filing till 10/15. Again, this is for filing only, not for taxes
owed.

Also, some states [Wyoming, Florida, Nevada, Texas, Alaska, Washington,
South Dakota] do not have personal income tax. Two others, New Hampshire
and Tennessee don't really deal with personal tax unless your a richie
with lots of dividends and interest earnings. I imagine that in these
states they get the income via sales and property taxes. Texas, as an
example, has its infamous "Hospitality Tax", which is a sales tax on
hotels and motels.

Then there is that unique fun known to tax preparers as "the all-states
return." This is where the taxpayer has moved from one state to another,
and the tax preparer gets to pull his/her hair out trying to figure all
the tax consequences for the individual. And some states don't make it
easy. Check out Wisconsins Form 827, Legal Residence (Domicile)
Questionnaire. By the time you get done with it, you'll think you've
arrived in the Solomani Confederation.

This is a good place to start:
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

You can get to the IRS site here. It also gives you an overlook at US
states in the "State Tax Profiles" section.

Andy B writes:
>ObTrav: What about tax returns in the Imperium ? In particular, what >about tax returns for expatriot traders and the like - do they pay tax >where their ship is registered, or pro rata per world they stay on, or >what ?

When I first got on the TML, back on the old list, we had a big
discussion about taxes. Actually, I think it was the first question I
posted. IIRC, the general opinion was that the Imperuim itself doesn't
do personal income taxes. It gets its money from planetary transfers
[the 30% thing you see in Striker] and sales taxes [seen chiefly at
Starports, or in systems where the Imperuim controls liscencing for belt
mining]. Personal income taxes are a province of what ever planet you
are from. Be advised that whatever you pc is doing, he will, eventually
and inevitably, have to deal with taxes in one form or another. Take my
little piece of landgrab heaven, Arba/Lunion 1721. Zero government, Zero
lawlevel. The perfect tax shelter, right? Just don't go to the Starport,
cause the SPA needs ALOT of money to run it and you WILL pay thru the
nose going through there. So you go out to the asteroid belt to mine ice
so you don't have to go to the port, right? So sorry, but the Imperuim
requires you to have a prospectors liscence [to help defray the cost of
maintaining a small patrol running through the system]. And so on and so
forth. 

God, I just spent all day yesterday working on other peoples taxes. I
found the whole experience ....

[WAIT FOR IT]




I found the whole experience TAXING.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"Let me tell you how it will be. There's one for you, nineteen for me.
Cause I'm the Tax Man, oh yeah I'm the Tax Man."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:07:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:07:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20416.191041.8G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
>
>>>Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =3D20
>>
>>Shouldnt the hull code be Z? I though Y was for 1,000,000 to=20
>>1,999,999. Z was for anything above that.=20
>
> Y is for 1,000,000 to "the next stated level" - but there isn't one,
> so I'm assuming it's just "over a million tons".  Z is "Reserved".
>
>>>MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
>>Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
>>Architects fees? Anyone?
>
> Standard cost.  If you *really* want to start mass-producing these
> things, you scare me ;-)
>
> I didn't include the architect's fees, but they'd be TCr 376,770.  The
> kind of contract every naval architect dreams of.

Check out Fritz Leiber's novel "The Wanderer" for planet ships.
Including things like PAW mounts with tunnels thousands of miles long. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:08:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:08:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417082001.B28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.192354.1u3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
>> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
> Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
> a nitpick.

I was going by the figures in the post I was responding to, which had a
higher density listed for Mercury.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204170250.EFN02270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204170250.EFN02270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes are for
> mesons that are *not* in motion.

They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half of the
original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has elapsed, 1/4 decay in
the next half-life period, 1/8 in the half-life after that, etc.

In a universe in which electronic precognition is common, you might be
able to look into the future and tell which are going to decay when.
Then you can preferentially accelerate the short-lived ones.  Oh,
you'll need accelerators capable of delivering a few megajoules *per
particle* as well, controllable to within 1 part per trillion, and
reliable precognition to the same accuracy.

Short of that, you'll get a beam of decaying mesons all along your
firing path, with the greatest concentration of decays *inside* your
weapon.


Getting a real meson to decay "on schedule" at a distance of hundreds
of thousands of kilometres is indeed magic of a very high order
according to current physics.  I'm not doubting that they exist in the
Traveller universe, just that their behaviour is radically different
from the way *real* mesons behave.

I'm a fan of the "Dr Meson" theory.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170327.UAA04325@ping.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Anthony Jackson
>>
>>Nah.  Meson beams have a number of clearly non-physical 
>>properties, starting with the magical 'timed delay'.
>>
>
>There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes 
>are for mesons that are *not* in motion.

You missed the point.  The point is that particles don't have 'lifespans'
(that can be extended with relativistic effects).  The have half-lives
(that can also be extended with relativistic effects) but the effect of
a half-life is that decays happen along the entire length of the beam,
with the largest number occuring right in front of the barrel.
>
>Mesons that are moving at relativistic velocities last a 
>*lot* longer.  Otherwise, cosmic rays would never pass down 
>into our upper atmosphere.

Well, cosmic rays are mostly regular nuclei initially; by and large everything
but the muons does decay before reaching the ground.

> The decay times listed are also from a Los Alamos website.

Hm..odd, I got mine off an LBL website.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018991242.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com> <ML-2.3.1018991242.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <i1qpbu0h52l19nh3hil3ubpm159pg14q71@4ax.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:07:22 -0700 (PDT), Anthony Jackson
<ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>I seem to recall something about X-ray lasers being developed, but =
they're not
>exactly weapons-grade.  The old SDI people talked about bomb-pumped =
X-ray
>lasers, a mechanism which AFAIK has never been successfully =
demonstrated, not
>that this prevent people from using it in SF.

I believe that bomb-pumped X-ray lasers were among the last things
examined with the underground nuclear tests.  If I recall, at they
showed some disappointing results in regard to focusing.

Since that time, there have no doubt been refinements to the design to
address the problem, but of course they haven't been tested.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:07:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:07:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com> <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 13:58:32 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
><SNIP>
>>
>> It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In another
>> of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional and
>> compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive me if
>> I am interpreting you incorrectly).  I believe you are in error in
>> this regard.  As per the above, the compressional forces are due to
>> the object's self-gravity and only the tensional forces are due to the
>> influence of another body and therefore are tidal forces.
>
>No. Tidal forces are *away* from the center of the satellite along the
>line joining it to the primary (ie the side closest to the primary is
>pulled towards the primary, and the side opposite the primary is pulled
>*away* from the primary.=20
>
>But the forces in the plane perpendicular to that line are *towards*
>the center of the satellite.=20
>
>so if you were orbiting close to a neutron star in a space suit, your
>feet would be pulled towards the star, your head would be pulled away
>from it and your waist would be getting squeezed.=20

Thank you for the clarification.  I'll admit that I'd forgotten the
"pinching" effect taking place in the plane perpendicular to the axis
passing through the primary and the satellite (though I had a clear
image of a fluid satellite doing exactly this in my mind [THUD]}.

However, I want to point you back to the original point of discussion
and the problem I was having with Tim Little's assertion that Jump
Drives are inherently at 0 diameters of the jumping ship itself.  This
may be true if one views the various limits as being imposed by
gravity, but, in a past discussion, it was elegantly pointed out that
tidal force more closely conforms to the 100 or 10 diameter limit for
the various planetary types than does gravity.

My point was that I believe that a body does not exert tidal force
upon itself.  Rather, those forces only appear in relation to two
separate bodies.  Therefore, a ship, otherwise outside the 100
diameter limit of other system bodies (and the tidal forces upon it
from those bodies is therefore negligible), does not exert a tide upon
itself or, to give Tim his due, that those forces are compressional
and are subsumed in the body's own gravitation.  Therefore, the Jump
drive is not working in a 0 diameter condition.

=46ailing this, I'll have to throw in with the earlier hand wave that
the jump grid defines a boundary within which the tidal force (or
gravitation) can be ignored.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:45:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:45:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416222132.009fa690@mail.attbi.com>

	I appreciate the comments of everyone who has replied to my initial 
post.  I gather that sandcasters would work best
against optical wavelengths and might require a lot of sand, but are not 
entirely infeasible.  Particle beams and X-ray lasers appear to be another 
kettle of fish entirely.  Years ago, before the internet, before I knew 
anyone besides myself might be interested in space combat, I checked out a 
copy of The Effects of Nuclear Weapons.  In it I found some interesting 
tables on the 1/2 value thickness of various material versus various forms 
of radiaton.  The 1/2 value thickness for X-rays was approximately 20 grams 
per square cm for heavy metals.  But that was for a solid plate of 
iron.  If the beam had to pass through a long distance (a few hundred 
meters) would that make any difference?  I am wondering if a long 
scattering distance would reduce the required density.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS TML Skills
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C179DB@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>


Sebastian:
If you have a Skill at Level 0 (e.g. Grav Vehicle-0), and this Skill 'serves
as' another Skill at Level minus 1 (Grav Vehicle serves as Grav Belt -1), at
which Level do I execute the 'served' Skill (Grav Belt)?
at : Level -1 (-> giving a negative DM of 1)?
at : Level 0 (-> minimum Skill-Level is allways 0)?
or not at all (-> there are no 'served' Skills for Level-0-Skills)?


I would go with the first one (giving a negative DM of -1). The other thing
is of course when you have both skills. For example Pilot serves as Ship's
Boat-1. So if you have Ship's Boat-2 and Pilot-3, does your Ship's Boat
become 4 (Pilot-3 minus 1 plus Ship's Boat-2), or is your DM still just 2
and you've wasted two skill levels. 

I love Megatraveller, but like all RPGers I changed it to taste. So for my
system, which has a combo of MT & T4 skills, plus some of my own, any skill
that is related gives a Synergy bonus. For example, I consider Computers and
Robotics linked skills. If you have a Skill level of 2-3 you can add a DM of
1 to a linked skill, and if Skill level 4+ add 2. If you have more than one
linked skill then you only add the highest bonus. 

I have found it works very well. I am more than happy to email to you if
you're interested, along with the reworked task & generation rules. 

Mikey

PS I rolled Ships Boat into Pilot. I thought it was stoopid to have them
separate. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>
References: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com> <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020417150233.E29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> in a past discussion, it was elegantly pointed out that tidal force
> more closely conforms to the 100 or 10 diameter limit for the
> various planetary types than does gravity.

At the risk of repeating myself: tidal gradient *is* the gravitational
field.  The gravitational field *is* the tidal gradient.  This is
particularly true in General Relativity, where gravitational
"acceleration" has no real existence, and the tidal gradient
corresponds precisely to the spacetime curvature.  This curvature (the
gravitational field) exists inside solid objects as well as outside.


> Failing this, I'll have to throw in with the earlier hand wave that
> the jump grid defines a boundary within which the tidal force (or
> gravitation) can be ignored.

That's what I use.  Works for me.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:16:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:16:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204162126.g3GLQsn00991@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20416.215652.8Q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
>> network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
>> just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.
>> 
>> In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
>> a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
>> wormholes have to share a reference frame.
>
> I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim

The existence of a preferred frame, means that laws of physics work
differently in *that* frame than in other frames. Which violates the
hell out of relativity and has other consequences as well. 

But if your drive only works in *that* reference frame or is otherwise
"tied" to it, you don't have to woory about time travel and other problems.

You *do* have to worry about explaining how it is that it just so
happens that this section of the milky way is moving at the right speed
in the right direction for FTL to be "easy" when it's very hard for the
rest of the universe.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:16:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:16:59 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <p04330109b8e24d6388f8@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20416.215513.5m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:28 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in
>>  > near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near
>>>  misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a
>>>  single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?
>>
>>We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
>>outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.
>
> We are looking.  There is a program underway to catalog Earth 
> crossing asteroids....

Yes, but they are looking for the *big* ones, not the measly little
hundred meter jobs. Detecting those would be nice, but if one hit it
wouldn't be much worse than a big nuke.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Added search to archives
Message-ID: <B8E2563E.3AD20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

I just integrated the htdig search engine into the tml archives.  Give it a
spin.

Now we just need to convert old tml archives into mailbox format and we'll
have all the archives back to 1994 online and searchable.

I'm looking for volunteers.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
Message-ID: <200204170555.WAA10726@ping.iii.com>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:

>In mail you write:
>
>>> Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
>>> network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
>>> just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.
>>> 
>>> In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
>>> a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
>>> wormholes have to share a reference frame.
>>
>> I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim
>
>The existence of a preferred frame, means that laws of physics work
>differently in *that* frame than in other frames. Which violates the
>hell out of relativity and has other consequences as well. 

Well, it means that FTL works differently in that reference frame than
others; specifically, that reference frame is one in which all FTL transits
appear to take positive time.  It does mean that using FTL, the 
michealson-morley experiment will actually work and return an absolute
velocity relative to this reference frame.
>
>But if your drive only works in *that* reference frame or is otherwise
>"tied" to it, you don't have to woory about time travel and other problems.
>
>You *do* have to worry about explaining how it is that it just so
>happens that this section of the milky way is moving at the right speed
>in the right direction for FTL to be "easy" when it's very hard for the
>rest of the universe.

Note, however, that if you _create_ a wormhole network, the act of doing so
defines a preferred frame of reference.  As long as you don't/can't create
a second network (with a different reference frame), explaining this isn't
a problem (explaining the inability to create more than one network may
require some handwaving).

And the 'priveleged reference frame' doesn't have to be the same as the
speed of the milky way.  It means that some FTL trips will seem to take
negative time, but since the round trip time remains constant, no actual
causality violation can occur.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F101Yg83alUohIi6YEF00006b18@hotmail.com>

I'm cross posting this to the list and sending it directly to Bruce 
MacIntosh as well.

>Mr. Holmstrm,
>
>I'm a member of the TML and I recently ran across an old email you sent out 
>proposing rules for the building of chem-det lasers using Bruce Macintosh's 
>"MCS" starship combat rules.
>
>If you're still playing Traveller and it isn't an imposition on you, could 
>you tell me if you ever finished a final draft of your rules?

Ohh, I'm still playing Traveller/reading the TML. The short answer to your 
question is "sort of yes" but the long answer is more interesting. I tried 
to pick apart the NukeDet tables in FFS and the warhead table in MCS and 
reverse engineer the Frag and ChemDet warheads using MCS and FFS. The major 
problems are that the ChemDet and Frag warheads mentioned in MCS might be 
handwaved and lacks stats (mass/vol/price). More details on NukeDets in 
FFS1/2 would also help. The discussion below assumes that the reader knows 
FFS and MCS. If I'm unclear somewhere just yell.

Most of my argument uses this table from MCS:
>Type                    Pen:Damage     Defence Nuclear Det-Laser            
>                                            TL15    19:13           -7
>                TL13    18:12           -7
>                TL10    17:11           -7
>Chemical Det-Laser-13   13:10           -6
>Fragmentation KKMSIM-10 10:14           -3

If the ChemDets are supposed to have a PEN calue of 13 this means that it 
must have a FFS2 DV of at least 21 (assuming PEN = 10*DAM => MCS DAM 7). 
This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking about a 
X-ray laser to it needs to be at least TL13. MCS states that NukeDets has a 
penetration value of 20 times the FFS2 damage value (instead of the usual 
PEN = 10xDAM). Further it states that the warhead (as a whole) has twice the 
damage compared to the listed damage (per beam) in FFS2. This can be used to 
determine the yield of the NukeDets used in the MCS missile table. Note that 
all the warheads mass around 500 kg.

TL     Yield    Damage  Wt       Vol
10     100 kt    80     540 kg   270 l
13     200 kt    94     500 kg   250 l
15     500 kt   113     500 kg   250 l

From the PD modifiers in MCS I drew the conclusion that ChemDets detonate 
closer to their target than DetNukes and that Frags detonates even closer. 
At shorter distances the missile will be easier to hit but this works both 
ways. Every -1 on defence makes the missile twice as hard to hit (based on 
PD RoF modifiers).

Warhead      Eff.
NukeDet       1
ChemDet       2
Frag         16

To bring the damage of the ChemDet warhead up to DAM 10 we need to hit the 
target 3 times (compared with 2 for NukeDets)using 40Mj laser pulses. Since 
the ChemDet detonates at a more efficient distance we only have to use 67% 
as many lasing rods as on a NukeDet.

Here is where we run out of information. How many lasing rods are there in a 
NukeDet? Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow 
up) or something more powerful (that does)? Can a lasing rod (as used in 
NukeDets) also be used with chemicals? What is the cost/weight/volume of the 
lasing rod and tracking telescope?


There are two ways to handle this.

1. Assume that all warheads in the MCS missile list are 500 kg/250 l. The 
cost of the ChemDet warhead is anybody's guess but say 100 kCr. The ChemDet 
with PEN13 and DAM10 will represent the baseline warhead and can be modified 
as follows.

Modify weight and volume based on Tech Level.

TL  Wt and Vol mod
13   1.00
16   0.67

By changing the power and number of the lasing rods different warheads can 
be constructed. Change the PEN and DAM values and then apply the weight, 
volume and price modifiers. Each extra point can be added to either DAM or 
PEN but not to both.  Points can also be transferred (e.g. PEN+1/DAM-1) at 
no cost.

Bonus*   Wt, Vol and Price mod
+1          1.5  (1.46)
+2          2.0  (2.15)
+3          3.0  (3.16)
+4          4.5  (4.65)
+5          7.0  (6.81)
+6         10.0  (10.0)
For negative modifiers divide instead.

Examples

A TL11 ChemDet warhead (-2).
Pen = 13 - 1 = 12.
Dam = 10 - 1 = 9.
Wt = 500 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 500 kg.
Vol = 250 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 250 l.
Price = 100 / 2.0 = 50 kCr.

A TL13 Heavy ChemDet Warhead (+3).
Pen = 13 + 2 = 15.
Dam = 10 + 1 = 11.
Wt = 500 * 3.0 = 1500 kg.
Vol = 500 * 3.0 = 750 l.
Price = 100 * 3.0 = 300 kCr.


A +3 ChemDet warhead and a ring of imperial intervention is all a traveller 
needs. ;) The modifiers are based on the 6*log10 damage scale of MCS and the 
Chemical Lasing Cartridge efficiency table. I believe this gives reasonable 
numbers but one might want to differentiate the TL table a bit.


2. Running the numbers of a 500 kg warhead using standard components.

A 40Mj 10 cm X-ray focal array with 10'000 km effective range at TL13.
Focal area  : 0.007854 m2.
Focal vol   : 0.000314 m3.
Focal mass  : 0.314 kg.
Focal price : 31.4 Cr.

Input energy  : 61.54 Mj.
Cartridge wt  : 30.77 kg.
Cartridge vol : 3.127 l.
I can't find the listed price for CLC cartridges in FFS2 so I use FFS1 
figures instead.
Cartridge price : 1850 Cr.

The weight limitation allows 16 cartridges to be fitted.
Warhead Wt    : 497.3 kg.
Warhead Vol   : 55.06 l.
Warhead Price : 30 kCr.

The result a very cheap and compact warhead but I doubt that 16 cartridges 
are enough since a NukeDet probably has more than 24 lasing rods. Building 
the thing with TL15 will allow for 21 cartridges and TL16 gets us 35 (mainly 
due to better cartridges). To be completely legal the warhead would need a 
beampointer which adds ~1000 kg at TL13. With a beampointer it is hard to 
see how any of the beams could miss at all.

Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a lot. 
TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge? Double this?


Ideas/Comments are welcomed.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20417.015401.9f1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> However, I want to point you back to the original point of discussion
> and the problem I was having with Tim Little's assertion that Jump
> Drives are inherently at 0 diameters of the jumping ship itself.  This
> may be true if one views the various limits as being imposed by
> gravity, but, in a past discussion, it was elegantly pointed out that
> tidal force more closely conforms to the 100 or 10 diameter limit for
> the various planetary types than does gravity.
>
> My point was that I believe that a body does not exert tidal force
> upon itself.  Rather, those forces only appear in relation to two
> separate bodies.  Therefore, a ship, otherwise outside the 100
> diameter limit of other system bodies (and the tidal forces upon it
> from those bodies is therefore negligible), does not exert a tide upon
> itself or, to give Tim his due, that those forces are compressional
> and are subsumed in the body's own gravitation.  Therefore, the Jump
> drive is not working in a 0 diameter condition.

Alas, any ship has to be treated as a collection of particles. And each
of those particles *does* exert forces on the others. And some could be
described as tidal forces. 

In any case the field will vary in weird and wonderful ways. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:42:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:42:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20417.015559.9o2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hi,
>
>> There are "clusters". And it's *really* unlikely that any sizable body
>> will have a density much above Mercury's. At least in a "normal"
>> system. The planets that form around supernova remnants are likely to
>> be very different.
>
> Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

Yes, but it's above by less than .2 g/cm^3. Im' talking about the
likelihood of planet's with densitys 1, 2 or more g/cm^3 above earth's.

Also, the post I was replying to had the wrong density for Mercury, and
had it being denser than earth. I didn't check my references until
someone pointed out the error.

> Besides, what's "normal" ? Our solar system could be the odd one out, for
> all we know. Until we survey a few others, I'd say it was not a good idea to
> make assumptions concerning the frequency of systems like ours. Consider the
> size of our moon to the Earth, for example. If it hadn't have been for a
> body the size of Mars hitting the just-born Earth, the Earth would have been
> larger and the moon non-existent, with dramatic effects on evolution and
> culture thereafter. The chances of that collision happening may have been
> vanishingly small, making the Earth Moon system unique.

The sort of normalcy I'm talking about is based soely on elemental
abundances and the way a cloud of dust and gas collapses to form
planets. Which none of the recent discoveries have modified in a way
that affects the density of inner planets that aren't gas giants. 

You wind up with only three types of material to build planets from.
Ices, "stony" materials and nickel-iron and the few elements that like
to accumulate along with it in "melts". 

Once a body gets big enough, radioative decay (far more important
several billion years back and likely equally important in any
forming solar system due to supernovas helping "push" things together)
will cause first the "ices" to melt, which lets the grains of other
materials sink to the center. 

This gives a layer of ice over a layer of liquid over a loosely packed
core of stony material. Eventually as the radioactives decay it'll
freeze. 

If it's big enough, the stony part will melt and form various minerals.
And the stuff not soluble in alumina and silica will settle to the
center giving a nickel iron core.

Once enough planetismals come together, they start sweeping up any
others that get close. As well as remaining gas and dust. Big enough
collections become gas giants, brown dwarfs or even stars. 

Once a star lights up, it drives out the gas and dust from the inner
system, causing it to get collected by the larger of the planets
farther out. Which grow even bigger. 

It also tends to bake out the "ices" on inner system bodies unless they
are already small gas giants. This gets distributed to the outer system
as well. 

And depending on factors we aren't sure of, gas giants may slowly
spiral inward in many systems until the gas and dust that are slowing
them are gone. In the process they tend to absorb any planets that
formed in orbits inside of their original orbits (though they may also
eject some from the system).

In any case, the only way to *get* a nickel iron core is to be a body
larger enough to melt from internal heat, large enough to have a enough
nickel and iron, and small enough to not turn into a gas giant.

Such bodies will, due to simple elemental abundances, have *much* more
stony material than nickel-iron.

If they are small enough, and there are enough of them to form a "belt"
you'll get colisions fragmenting the surface and you could get an
exposed iron core. But that takes a pretty small body. 

Anything that's even a size 1 planet is way too big for that. 

So only systems with *really* skewed elemental abundances will have
worlds with densities much higher than Earth's. Or other *really* weird
situations. The pulsatr planets, rocky planets that are insanely close
to their primary (work out what would be left of Earth after a few
billion years at 0.1 AU from the sun, for example). etc.

> Finally, all non-jovian planets form from Supernova remnants. That's what
> (a) manufactures the heavier elements in the first place, and (b) creates a
> large cloud of particulate and gas that condenses to form a new star. The
> presence of anything above the lighter elements in the solar system implies
> that the Sun and its family owe their existence to the previous catastrophic
> death of a long dead star.
>
> If you are referring to oddities like pulsar planets here, then I'd agree
> they would probably be denser if they formed from debris. But then, its more
> likely that a pulsar has captured a body ejected from another system, as
> supernovas tend to clear the area near the site of the explosion and drive
> all the suitable accretion material well away from the pulsar itself. That
> Hubble image of the 1987A (?, can't remember the designation now) supernova
> remnant shows this in practice - a huge shockwave travelling at relativistic
> velocities away from the pulsar corem driving superheated gas and
> particulate with it.

Except that they are likely to have some sort of accretion disks of
matter that *didn't* reach escape velocity. That's apt to be
preferentially enriched with denser materials.

>> Ain't gonna happen. The abundance of materials in the cloud of dust and
>> gas a system forms from means that anything with a substantial iron
>> core will have a lot more rocky material overlying it.
>
> Just because it's less likely doesn't mean it won't happen. A few years ago,
> superjovians in the inner system were thought impossible, and then guess
> what they found ?

But that just showed that orbits weren't as stable as we thought, and
that large bodies might form close to where the star did. 

They are still gas giants in most respects.

> Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
> that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
> An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
> perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
> planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
> come up eventually.

Thing is, if it wasn't rare, we'd see more variation in densities of
objects in this system. Only bodies that get that dense are asteroid
fragments. 

The problem is managing to collect all that iron and then get *rid* of
all the *rock* that had to accumulate with it.

Rules of thumb are expected to work *most* of the time. and that's all
the 100 diameter limit is.

>> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
>> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
> Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
> in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
> superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

If they get big enough, that can't happen. so either they formed
farther out and moved in, or they were running a close second to the
body that became the star. 

>> I'm not going to quit indicating emphasis. And the alternatives are
>> asterisks or underlines and the asterisks are much easier to hit.
>
> Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
> message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
> need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
> all.

Sorry, but emphasis can change the meaning of a sentence. And convey
extra meaning. 

>> Yes, it's harder to read a sentence where you individually emphasize
>> each word with them. But that's not what I'm doing.
>
> No, but it made the point - the *'s draw your eyes to particular key words
> and make the sentence harder to read.

Harder for *you*, maybe. You are the only person I've ever heard make
such an argument. And I'm far from the only person who uses them. 

Also, they don't draw my eyes to such words. They modify the emphasis
as I reach the word. They don't "pull" my eyes on ahead.

By your argument, I shouldn't use emphasis in speaking either. And
that's just plain silly.

>> As for patronizing, I'm not responsible for what you read into what I
>> write.
>
> Hah ! Have you ever thought of a career in politics ? :-)
>
> Seriously, if you decide to emphasize particular words, then you are
> attempting to enforce those words and colour the interpretation of the
> sentence, which is what emphasis is all about anyway. Take the sentence
> above, "it's *really* unlikely" - there was no need to emphasize the word
> "really" here at all. The wording was more than sufficient. All you achieved
> was to add a dismissive/patronising tone, as if to say "it's so unlikely
> that it's not even worth considering, so I am not going to".

I emphasized it because if I was speaking I'd stress that word. That's
not being patronizing, that's saying that I consider it very, very
unlikely. Without resorting to overly awkward phrasing. 

>> Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
>> of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
>> something that will be directly proportional to it.
>
> Why does it have to vary with the inverse cube of the distance ? That
> automatically makes the assumption that I argued against, which is "just
> because the figures fit it must be right".

Work it out for yourself. Any "force" that is the same at X diameters
(where X <>1) from bodies of different sizes *does* vary by the cube of
the distance.  That's the way the geometry works. See below.

> I'd agree that the tidal figures
> being identical for a given density across all world sizes seems convincing,
> until you remember that densities are not going to be uniform at all. Then
> the "figures matching" evidence breaks down (IIRC, Larger rocky/terrestrial
> worlds are likely to have a higher density, as their proto-cores must have
> been more massive during accretion to gain the additonal mass in the first
> place - therefore as you go from UWP Size 1 to A, the density is likely to
> increase, and the tidal force likewise).

Except that back when the 100 diameter ruke was set forth, all the
rules for calculating things about planets explicitly stated that you
were to assume that they had the same density.

Check out the reprints of the first three books.

> Might it not make more sense to say that 100 diameters was a simplification
> for the game, and an arbitrary value, rather than cook the Physics books to
> justify it ? If you are going to make a "realistic-feel" limit for Jump
> Drives, it would make more sense to define it in terms of the gravitational
> field strength and forget the diameters thing entirely, except maybe as a
> passing comment such as "for Earth this occurs at 100 planetary diameters".

Work out the field strength at 100 diameters for size 1 thru 10 planets
assuming densities similar to that of earth or even Mars. The figures
are *way* off. 

Since field strength varies by inverse *square*, but mass varies as the
*cube* of the diameter, you get huge differences. 

Call the mass of a size 1 world 1. And the field strength at 100
diameters 1. 

A size 10 world has 1000 times the mass (volune is proprotional to the
cube of the size). It's 10 times bigger, which makes 100 diameters, 10
times as big as with the size one world. So we have 1000 times the mass
but only 10 times the distance. With an inverse square law, that means
the force would be 1000/(10^2) stronger.

X = KM/R^2

So the field strength at 100 diameters from a size 10 world is ten
times that of the strength at 100 diameters from a size 1 world of the
same density.

To get density differences to make up the differences, the *larger*
world would have to be 1/10th as dense as the *smaller* world. And that
ain't gonna happen.

If the force varies by the inverse *cube*, then you've got 1000 times
the mas at 10 times the distance, but instead of X=KM/R^2, you've got
X=KM/R^3. 

So you've got 1000/(10^3) = 1

*That* is why it has to depend on the inverse cube. 

I worked out the fact that inverse cube was needed *before* I knew that
tidal forces followed an inverse cube law.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:43:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:43:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b8e294f89b54@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20417.014254.3E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 7:00 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>  > The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also
>>>  true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to
>>>  another will depend on how far apart they are.
>>
>>You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
>>depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
>>ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
>>forces).
>
> I'm not sure what force you are talking about.  The force on any one 
> part of the ship is the force of gravity.  Tidal forces are the 
> relative difference in forces between different parts of an object.

The "tidal forces" are due to a combination of gravity *and* motion. 

Remember, the ship is assumed to be in "free fall" (ie freely
responding to gravity in some sort of orbit) when you figure the tidal
acceleration due to the body the ship is orbiting (Note: I'm using
"orbit" loosely, to include things like parabolic and hyperbolic
trajectories) 

The "tidal forces" are due to differences in the strength of the
primary's field and due to the motion of the ship in it's orbit.

The magnitude of the forces depends not on the size of the *orbiting*
body, but on the distance from the center of mass of that body, and
what direction you are from the center relative to the line connecting
primary and satellite.

So, at a given distance from earth, the tidal forces at the center of
mass of a ship due to Earth will be *zero*. At they will increase as
you move away from that point. The direction and magnitude of the
forces depends on the distance from that center and upon the direction
relative to the line joining that point to the center of the Earth.

Anything "attached" to the ship is subject to those forces. 

The forces will be the same at 100 meters in a given direction from the
center of the ship whether the ship is a tiny scout with a pole
sticking out in that direction or or 1 km long ship with that point
being inside the ship.

Secondary effects due to the mass distribution of the ship will modify
those forces. But it's not the "size" of the ship per se that
determines the strength or direction of the forces.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:43:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:43:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCECFCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
> How penetrating is ionising radiation in general?

Alpha particles will be stopped by skin (will travel 5-7cm in air).
Ingested alpha emitters are problematic, though.

Beta particles travel 2-8m in air. They might actually traverse
the abdominal or chest wall, if you're really thin.

Gamma rays have a half thickness (50% attenuation) of 12cm of water.
Fast neutrons (energy of more than 500keV) have greater
penetration than gammas.

The fudge factor I suggested accounts for the increased radiosensitivity of
the ovary.

Their location is irrelevant as the most likely radiation types encountered
will be gamma radiation, neutrons and cosmic rays.

David Summers wrote :-
> I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the
> fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
Damn shame, that <g>.


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:45:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:45:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F169fBi0SHfgcSoVW04000117c4@hotmail.com>

Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to 
enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?

This concept is pretty palatable in the US, because there has to be 
jurisdiction for a court to hear a case and due process is constitutionally 
guaranteed.  But is that necessarily the case in the Imperium?

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:45:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:45:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8e293c05231@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204170923130.29728-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, David P. Summers wrote:
> Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can 
> easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the 
> skin (or more than a meter or two of air).

Hm, don't alpha particles have even less range than beta? I remember
something like centimeter scale ranges in air.

Of course, they won't penetrate the skin. Still, if you get them into your
body, they are mighty dangerous: the heavier the particle, the greater the
damage. (Alpha particles are helium nuclei, that is, two protons and two
neutrons, and about 8000 times more massive than electrons which make up
beta radiation.)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:19:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:19:24 2002
Subject: [TML] The L-E Digest?
Message-ID: <F82qi8VjUwZcSlVviFl0000bd6b@hotmail.com>

In mail, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) asked:

>Nah, if everyone who goofed did that who'd be posting? :-)

<tongue-in-cheek>
Um, just you?
</tongue-in-cheek>

Jeff.
"Who ordered the Meat Feast with extra Bantha?" - Pizza the Hutt.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:21:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:21:06 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.220459.6d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Check out how much space *8* tons (mass) of liquid oxygen takes up.
>
> I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?
>
> When I scoop ice from an iceball, I get lots of hydrogen in the form
> of water.  Water is a more compact way to store hydrogen than LH2.  So
> I *keep* the water.  I run the ammonia, methane, or some more water
> through the fuel processor to fill up the smaller LH2 tanks (possibly
> extracting some nitrogen for life support), throw away all the
> methane, and either keep or throw away the ammonia.

You want it because you were making such a fuss about not being able to
use oxygen to convert methane to water and CO2 because you'd lose the
oxygen if you threw away the CO2.

Also, what version of Traveller are you running? Most version have jump
fuel being the majority of the tankage?

>> And you'll have to have to have *seperate* tanks for the 9 tons of
>> water, the 8 tons of LOX, and the 1 ton of LH2.
>
> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
> over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
> LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
> unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
> paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.

Only if the *mass* of the ship doesn't matter in your TU. Because you
are using 9 times the *mass* even if the tank is smaller. Which will
have a major impact on performance.

> The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
> volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
> water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
> upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.

Only at the cost of *not* being able to refuel by scopping at a gas
giant. The atmosphere is 90%+ hydrogen. So unless you carry along all
that extra oxygen (LOX is the easiest way to do so) you can't use
it. Not unless you can store it as LH2. Which you can't do in the water
tanks.

>> Oh yeah, actually, the odds are you'd seperate the methane *first*,
>> simply because it will be the first component of the mix to turn
>> into a gas.
>
> Yep, mainly so I can get rid of it before putting it in the tanks at
> all.  Ammonia I can deal with later, since I don't need highly
> expensive long-term cryogenic tanks to hold ammonia solution.  I can
> separate it later if I want.

No, but you can't use the water for drinking, and it needs special
handling as ammonia water is corrosive.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:21:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:21:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20416.223451.7R6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson writes:
> <Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would 
> work
> reasonably well against just about any weapon.>
>
> Ok, what is the difference between sand and chaff?  I always that chaff was 
> strips of foil cut to a particular length of the
> wavelength of a radar, and the sand in a sandcaster used particles of the 
> correct size to interact with the laser wavelength.  I thought they were 
> the same process.

Nope. The particle size for light wavelengths is *way* too fine. And
the mechanism would be rather different anyway.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20416.221609.5h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/16/02 3:50 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:
>
>> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
>> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
>> over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
>> LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
>> unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
>> paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.
>> 
>> The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
>> volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
>> water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
>> upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.
>> 
>
> Just curious, but what about storing H2 as hydrides?  Don't you get a higher
> density?

But an even worse *mass* penalty than water, ammonia or methane.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:26:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:26:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018999846.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20416.223754.8r1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>> 
>> The particles take a fair amount of energy to melt. While molten they
>> continue to retro-reflect part of the beam and disperse the rest.
>> 
>> They take even more energy to vaporize and form a plasma easily. The
>> plasma is opaque to laser energy and absorbs even *more* of the beam
>> energy.
>
> Now, let's consider a typical example: a typical TTL13 X-ray laser.
> It focuses to a beam 1 cm wide, with an unclear duration; we'll
> assume 100 milliseconds, as that will avoid significant problems with
> the beam impact point moving.  The total beam energy is on the order
> of 400 megajoules, and has a damage value (T4) of 50.

That's a *pulse* energy.

> The target is a 200 dton sphere, with a cross-section of 240 square meters. 
> One can at AV 50 is 320 kilograms.  Since the beam has a cross-section of
> 0.0001 m^2, it actually strikes 0.13 grams of sand.
>
> As it happens, X-rays can go through that much material without even worrying
> about getting it out of the way.  Ignoring that, if we assume the 'sand' is
> synthetic diamond, it has a heat of vaporization of 8 kilojoules.  Further
> ignoring the fact that X-rays don't generally reflect very well, through a
> variety of tricks we'll argue that the actual energy of vaporization is 1
> megajoule (125x greater).
>
> 399 megajoules to go.  Well, perhaps the vapor is opaque.

Well, plasmas tend to be very opaque to many wavelengths. Obviously,
you tune the composition of the "sand" to enhance this.

> Let's add another
> megajoule to the vapor, heating it up to some obscene temperature, and assume
> that 90% of the absorbed energy is lost to immediate reradiation.  The
> remaining 100 kilojoules causes the gas in the path of the laser to explode
> outwards, with an average velocity of 39 kilometers per second.  1 
> microsecond
> later, the plasma has had its density drop by a factor of around 10, which
> should allow the X-rays to shine through.  Since the power output is 4
> megajoules per microsecond, the total energy absorbed by the sand is maybe 5
> megajoules.  Gee, only another 80x increase in efficiency and we'll actually
> stop the beam.

Excuse me? 4 megajoules per microsecond is 4 *terawatts* beam beam. 

A 4 megajoule *pulse that lasts a microsecond *is* apt to get stopped.
Or at least badly dispersed.

>> Well, in space, outside of low orbit, stuff like sand and "smoke" tend
>> to be rather more effective, because they don't get left behind. 
>
> Well, if you don't use any thrust and use gravetics to prevent the stuff from
> wandering, sure.

Check the rules. Sand is *specificly* described as getting left behind
if you accelerate.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:27:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:27:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20416.232156.7Z0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Dear Folks -
>
> In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see 
> <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file 
> their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
>
> Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and 
> although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the 
> end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned 
> for a financial year until after you've earned it.
>
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
> timetable works??

For normal people, the tax year runs from Jan 1 to Dec 31. Employers
have until Jan 31 to get the W-2 forms (which show how much you made
and how much tax was withheld) to you. And you've got until April 15th
to file your taxes for the year that ended Dec 31.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:29:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:29:07 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20416.150551.5I5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <00ec01c1e624$f8803f10$1f9e15ac@warrior>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?


> In mail you write:
>
> > ObTrav:  There is a (Star Trek created?) stereotype of
> > the engineer who can fix anything but no one can tell
> > how he does it.  What other stereotypes are common in
> > your games?
>
> The "engineer as wizard" stereotype has existed *at least* as long as
> widespread use of steam engines. And some would argue it goes back to
> the old seige engineers of medieval and Roman times.
>

I seem to remember reading somewhere that early artillerists were considered
practioneers of black magic :)



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:57:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:57:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>; from david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au on Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:56:56AM +1000
References: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020416192131.A14539@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:56:56AM +1000,
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> 
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
> timetable works??

You've until 15 April to post your tax return--that is, the
calculation of how much you owe or are owed--for the _last_ year.  So
a few weeks back I posted my return for 1 January-31 December '01.
Ended up owing money, which annoys a lot of people, but not me.

Why?  Because I held onto that money for the duration of the year, and
thus could earn interest on it.  Getting a tax return from the gov't
is another way of saying that you lent it some great sum without
interest.  Who'd want to do that?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The English love making fun of foreigners, whose mere existence they
regard as an enormous jest.                             --Iain Pears

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:59:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:59:45 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020416231641.82811.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417083837.009f5b80@mindspring.com>

At 09:16 AM 4/17/02 +1000, you wrote:

>Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
>are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
>pointy stick :)

Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future leader of men?  :P


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"What are we gonna do tonight Brain?"
"the same thing we do every 4 years Pinky,
Judge Olympic Figure Skating!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 10:01:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 09:01:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half 
>of the original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has 
>elapsed, 1/4 decay in the next half-life period, 1/8 in the 
>half-life after that, etc.
>

then it's not possible to accelerate *any* mesons at all, 
given their half-life.  Almost all of them would be gone 
before they got to the end of the accelerator.

Please contact Los Alamos and inform them that the meson 
accelerator that they have been using since 1968 is a fake.  
It sends beams of mesons out without irradiating the 
accelerator.  The only items that become "hot" are in the 
target area.  Please explain how that is done.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 10:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Apr 17 09:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
Message-ID: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com>

I can think of one good reason for ships to ignore their own '100D Limit', 
the Solomani beating the Vilani, Starships to refuel from Gas Giants, 
Stewards et al to earn seemingly inflated wages and a whole host of other 
'unrealistic' issues with the Official Traveller Universe...

It is a GAME - it is meant to be FUN.

Yes, we can enjoy trying to 'prove' or 'disprove' various facets of 
Traveller "life" based on current knowledge, but please remember that:
(a)not everybody really cares if it is possible in RealLife(tm) to dodge a 
laser 'fired' by someone standing five feet away,
(b)Earth is flat/the center of the Universe; man will never travel quicker 
than 25mph without suffocating; man will never reach the moon; Einstein's 
"Special THEORY of Relativity" is, um, a theory...
(c)we know more now than the Great Ancient Ones wrote the LBBs.

It could just be me, but I sometimes get the impression that we get a little 
wrapped up in discussing the technical aspects of the game and forget that 
it is "just a game".
There is much more information available in the 'public domain' than when 
the first edition of "Traveller" left the printers.  We seem to have people 
from nearly all walks of life in the TML membership (except Lawyers:-), so 
we have a much greater depth and breadth of experience an knowledge to draw 
upon.

Or, to quote the Wise Old Bird...

"Because it is artistically *right*..."

Whinge over, I now return you to your previous incarnations...

Jeff
(By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how 
much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight 
slows the game a little..?)

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 10:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 09:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204171605.EGN07388@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug gives advice:

>>Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
>>are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
>>pointy stick :)
>
>Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future 
>leader of men?  :P
>

God help them.  I'm almost of the opinion that officers 
should be enlisted first.  Even academy cadets should 
complete 2 years before going to the academy.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:36:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:36:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not?
In-Reply-To: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204171212050.4680-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Jeff Rowse wrote:
> It is a GAME - it is meant to be FUN.

But these discussions ARE fun!

> (a)not everybody really cares if it is possible in RealLife(tm) to dodge a 
> laser 'fired' by someone standing five feet away,

Nobody really has to care; the discussion can and should be ignored
whenever it gets in the way of actually playing the game.  Very few posts
to this list are accompanied by the message, "Warning: we recommend
avoiding Traveller until this issue is resolved.  Proceed at yourown risk."

> (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how 
> much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight 
> slows the game a little..?)

Roll to see if I eat your spleen.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:37:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:37:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020417203822.1ab3cb30.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Roseberry wrote:
> Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
> Architects fees? Anyone?

Slartibartfast

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20416.223754.8r1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019061859.2225.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
>
> > 399 megajoules to go.  Well, perhaps the vapor is opaque.
> 
> Well, plasmas tend to be very opaque to many wavelengths. Obviously,
> you tune the composition of the "sand" to enhance this.

Right, I'm assuming this.
> 
> Excuse me? 4 megajoules per microsecond is 4 *terawatts* beam beam. 

Sure.  A 400 megajoule pulse lasting 100 microseconds.
> 
> A 4 megajoule *pulse that lasts a microsecond *is* apt to get stopped.
> Or at least badly dispersed.

Agreed.  The problem is we have a 400 megajoule pulse that lasts 100
microseconds.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:47:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:47:44 2002
Subject: [TML] LAMPF - a meson facility!
In-Reply-To: <200204170105.EFJ07268@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019061201.9084.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> ObTrav:  After your ship is hit by a meson weapon, assuming 
> you're still alive, is the ship a radioactive wreck?

Not in the area people are still alive.  Energy required to make appreciably
radioactive far exceeds energy required to kill.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:48:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:48:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F169fBi0SHfgcSoVW04000117c4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019060914.2767.ajackson@ping>

Sam D writes:
> Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to 
> enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?

No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in state
courts work.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:49:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:49:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019061329.2060.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> then it's not possible to accelerate *any* mesons at all, 
> given their half-life.  Almost all of them would be gone 
> before they got to the end of the accelerator.

Nah.  The half-life of charged mesons is sufficiently long that if you generate
them in the accelerator, they can be accelerated to a reasonable energy before
too many of them decay.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not?
Message-ID: <20020417185524.030254508@mo120usjc.palm.net>

Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
__________
>On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Jeff Rowse wrote: 
>> It is a GAME - it is meant to be FUN. 
>But these discussions ARE fun! 

In a bizzare fashion, yes.  They do tend to chase down rat holes self-repecting rats would turn their noses up at.

Trust me on this. Not only have I been down those rat holes, I've given tours and probably have squatters rights by now.

>> (a)not everybody really cares if it is possible in RealLife(tm) to dodge a  
>> laser 'fired' by someone standing five feet away, 
>Nobody really has to care; the discussion can and should be ignored 
>whenever it gets in the way of actually playing the game.  Very few posts 
>to this list are accompanied by the message, "Warning: we recommend 
>avoiding Traveller until this issue is resolved.  Proceed at yourown risk." 
> 
>> (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how  
>> much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight  
>> slows the game a little..?) 
>Roll to see if I eat your spleen. 

Ah...but they let you use your Really KEWL medical rules.  Break out the transplant rules!

"Wadda yous mean you shoot out his liver!?! Doc sez I'm on da wagon till I get a new one.  If you think I'm mean drunk, wait to see me in a DT fit."

> 
>	Gregory Kettler 
>	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before." 
>			--Dave, KODT 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New Filk
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417092008.009ea920@mindspring.com>

I put this up on my Live Journal, but it didn't get much response there, so 
I'd thought I'd post it here.

Flaming Eye

To the tune of "The Red Queen" by Leigh Ann Hussey
(note: the scansion and exact wording were lifted from the Annwn version of 
Bob Kanefsky's "Black Flag" parody, so there may be slight variations from 
the original.)


And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space
Lift up your mugs and cheer
We'll put the Terrans in their place
We're Vilani privateers

Full three thousand years and more we owned all these suns
'Till the bloody Terrans barged right in and put us on the run
But not all have bended knee, some of us are roaming free
A hidden fight that's the key, fought with blade and gun

(Chorus)
And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space
Lift up your mugs and cheer
We'll put the Terrans in their place
We're Vilani privateers
With the plasma beams burning blue
We'll burn that freighter through and through
Take the ship and kill the crew
Beware the flaming eye

Now some try to change their fate with money no longer theirs
And others try to awe by putting on stately airs
But nothing can change the fate
Of peasant or of potentate
Out the lock they go, for no one really cares

(Chorus)

We hear they're hunting us, we think that's OK
We're all itching for the chance to blow traitors away
The Terran Navy, it's to laugh
It's Vilani hulls, by more than half
We know the tricks of the battle staff, and quietly slip away

(Chorus)

It's "target lo! hard a' port, making for the jumping line"
Of escorts or Q ship tricks there isn't any sign
We'll cut that freighter's hull apart
And sell off all the useful parts
Including all the crewmens' hearts, if we make market on time

(Chorus)

And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space . . .

(Instrumental)

And we sell the loot
And we sell our slaves
Awash in riches we party on for days
Then the Captain calls us all back on board
The patrols are getting closer
Our war goes on even as we get old
It won't end until I'm good and dead and cold
Even then I'll live on in my comrades' eyes
Or as a meal, our shugulli's real
And he's already come to look me over

(slowly)
And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space . . .

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.192354.1u3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEEDDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> >> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were 
> "boiled" off.
> >
> > Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
> > a nitpick.
> 
> I was going by the figures in the post I was responding to, which had a
> higher density listed for Mercury.

No, they didn't. I quoted 5.43 for Mercury, 5.52 for Earth.

Regds

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:34:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:34:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20417.014121.1p5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
>> There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes are for
>> mesons that are *not* in motion.
>
> They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half of the
> original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has elapsed, 1/4 decay in
> the next half-life period, 1/8 in the half-life after that, etc.

Also, 1/4 decay in *half* the half-life. And 1/8 decay in half of
*that*. Etc.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:35:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:35:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416222132.009fa690@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20417.024825.4W7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>         I appreciate the comments of everyone who has replied to my initial 
> post.  I gather that sandcasters would work best
> against optical wavelengths and might require a lot of sand, but are not 
> entirely infeasible.  Particle beams and X-ray lasers appear to be another 
> kettle of fish entirely.  Years ago, before the internet, before I knew 
> anyone besides myself might be interested in space combat, I checked out a 
> copy of The Effects of Nuclear Weapons.  In it I found some interesting 
> tables on the 1/2 value thickness of various material versus various forms 
> of radiaton.  The 1/2 value thickness for X-rays was approximately 20 grams 
> per square cm for heavy metals.  But that was for a solid plate of 
> iron.  If the beam had to pass through a long distance (a few hundred 
> meters) would that make any difference?  I am wondering if a long 
> scattering distance would reduce the required density.

Actually, as long as there are 20 grams of heavy metal in a 1 cm square
column between you and the x-ray source, it still work. Doesn't matter
if the column is 1 mm tall or 1 km tall. 

That's how the atmosphere can shield from x-rays. It's not very dense,
but there's a *lot* of it. 

Ditto for how smoke blocks sight. It's a bunch of *really* fine
particles. Not much density, but there are so many that any light
trying to get to you from the other side always runs into a particle. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:47:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:47:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 18:28:14 GMT Daylight Time, 
texasredshift@hotmail.com writes:


> At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
> Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
> judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
> 
> Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
> Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?
> 
> What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?
> 
> Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
> 

I have to say that in MTU (and I make no claim that this is transferable to 
anyone elses) there is no such thing as Imperial law in the sense of 
statutes. Instead all decisions are driven by the precedent of rulings by 
Emperors, or their legitimate servants, on the same (or similar) subjects. 

The role of lawyers is to argue precedent or to force the passage of decision 
up the hierarchy of courts until precedent is set. Theoretically the final 
arbiter is the current Emperor, who can set new precedents or overturn old 
ones. Practically the Emperor delegates this role to selected nobles and to 
the moot except in exceptional circumstances.

My courts apply the same burden of proof in both civil and criminal cases, in 
my case "on the balance of probabilities" rather than "beyond reasonable 
doubt". Juries are not a recognised concept and instead panels of nobles 
ranging from one to the entire moot, depending on the case, make decisions 
after hearing argument. It does not take a genius to work out that the system 
is highly open to abuse.

There is no real distinction between civil and criminal law at the Imperial 
level. Instead all cases are treated in the same way and dealt with through 
the same channels. The main difference is that in some cases precedent holds 
that the court should appoint Imperial investigators to gather evidence. In 
other cases the burden of investigation lies entirely with the litigant. 
 
Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 18:28:14 GMT Daylight Time, texasredshift@hotmail.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">At the base of this topic is one key issue:&nbsp; How litigous is the Imperium?<BR>
Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?&nbsp; Or are lawsuits rare and<BR>
judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?<BR>
<BR>
Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?<BR>
Is jury trial available?&nbsp; Are judges elected? Appointed?<BR>
<BR>
What does canon have to say on this?&nbsp; What do you have to say?<BR>
<BR>
Bill Scheets aka "Tex"<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I have to say that in MTU (and I make no claim that this is transferable to anyone elses) there is no such thing as Imperial law in the sense of statutes. Instead all decisions are driven by the precedent of rulings by Emperors, or their legitimate servants, on the same (or similar) subjects. <BR>
<BR>
The role of lawyers is to argue precedent or to force the passage of decision up the hierarchy of courts until precedent is set. Theoretically the final arbiter is the current Emperor, who can set new precedents or overturn old ones. Practically the Emperor delegates this role to selected nobles and to the moot except in exceptional circumstances.<BR>
<BR>
My courts apply the same burden of proof in both civil and criminal cases, in my case "on the balance of probabilities" rather than "beyond reasonable doubt". Juries are not a recognised concept and instead panels of nobles ranging from one to the entire moot, depending on the case, make decisions after hearing argument. It does not take a genius to work out that the system is highly open to abuse.<BR>
<BR>
There is no real distinction between civil and criminal law at the Imperial level. Instead all cases are treated in the same way and dealt with through the same channels. The main difference is that in some cases precedent holds that the court should appoint Imperial investigators to gather evidence. In other cases the burden of investigation lies entirely with the litigant. <BR>
 <BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:48:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:48:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <20417.014121.1p5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net> <20417.014121.1p5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020418082417.B31848@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Also, 1/4 decay in *half* the half-life. And 1/8 decay in half of
> *that*. Etc.

A minor quibble -- 30% decay in the first half of the half life, and
16% decay in 1/4 of the half-life.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:49:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:49:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F169fBi0SHfgcSoVW04000117c4@hotmail.com> from "Sam D" at Apr 17, 2002 02:39:00 PM
Message-ID: <200204172127.g3HLRW601938@localhost.uia.net>

> Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to 
> enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?
> 
> This concept is pretty palatable in the US, because there has to be 
> jurisdiction for a court to hear a case and due process is constitutionally 
> guaranteed.  But is that necessarily the case in the Imperium?

I'm not sure how exactly this would tie in to Traveller, however, there
is a strange situation which has cropped up recently with NAFTA (the
north american free trade agreement). Apparently, there's a section
which states that if nation A (or a jurisdiction thereof) passes a
law which impinges upon the profits (or future profitability) of a
company based in nation B but doing business in nation A, then the
company can sue nation A. The real trick is that this doesn't go
to a court of nation A or nation B. Instead, it goes to a private
three-judge tribunal, one judge appointed from each nation, and
the third judge (the chairman of the tribunal) being appointed by
both. Their proceedings are secret (no reporters allowed), and they
routinely hand out multi-million dollar judgements.

As just one recent example, there's a gasoline additive formerly
used in California which helps oxygenate the gas and helps it
burn more cleanly. However, the stuff is toxic, and one drop
getting into the groundwater can ruin acres of water. So California
decided to phase the stuff out. However, the Canadian company that
produces it cried foul, sued through NAFTA, and if my understanding
is correct, the 3-judge tribunal sided with them.

The reason the US wanted this special tribunal in place is because
we don't trust the Mexican courts, however, we've already used the
same tactic against Mexico. Again, if my understanding is correct,
an American company paid kickbacks to some officials in the
Mexican government to obtain a permit to use a certain area of
their land as a waste dump (not sure if it's a toxic dump or what).
Anyway, so the locals got angry and passed a local ordinance to
stop what the company was doing. So the company sued Mexico through
NAFTA and won.

From what little I've read, the Mexicans are unhappy about this
whole situation, the Canadians are uneasy, and the USA is a bit
conflicted, some people claiming that private business should not
have to shoulder the costs of environmental protection while others
point out that in the first example, if the company producing the
gasoline additive were based in the USA, it would not have been able
to sue California for passing a law to phase out the additive, but
because the company was Canadian, it could sue through NAFTA, the
net result being that foreign companies have more rights than
domestic. So basically, NAFTA seems to make it better to do business
abroad than to do business at home, and it also makes it much more
difficult for politicians to pass environmentally protective laws
because of the potential legal/financial ramification brought by
foreign companies who's nations are signators to the treaty.

How all this relates to Traveller, I'm not sure. It may be that
worlds will use a system of treaties and joint tribunals to
negotiate their legal disputes. However, because of the canonical
existence of the nobility and the existance of subsector and sector
government, I would tend to find it more likely that there would
be a level to the Imperial judicial system which supercedes the
authority of nation-worlds. This is a bit tricky, because it takes
some degree of sovereignty away from individual worlds, so how
exactly one would draw the lines is an interesting question.
Somebody should really write a book or article focusing on the
Imperial legal system, preferably somebody already well versed in
International Law, but also mindful of, say, late Roman history
or whatever society people would consider analogous to the Imperial
model.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:51:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:51:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417010106.E5149279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204180015090.24858-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Stephen Tempest writes:

>Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Somewhere around 1,500 quadrillions would be my guess (15 trillion people
with an average of Cr10,000).

Andrew Jackson wirtes:

>Hm...my figure seems to be at 103PCr/year, which is well within the margin of
>error.  Of course, there's a fairly significant problem with the old Atlas of
>the Imperium data -- there's only around 9,000 imperial worlds, not the 11,000
>there's supposed to be.

Do you mean 9,000 systems rather than the 10,000 there's supposed to be?
IIRC the figures are 11,000 worlds in 10,000 systems, implying quite a lot
of systems with multiple worlds (But don't ask me to back this up with a
quote, I've no idea where I got that notion). I admit that we've seen
precious little evidence of multiple worlds elsewhere in canon (But when I
get around to doing my planned writeup of Deneb, I'm going to change
that).


Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:53:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:53:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417010106.E5149279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417165617.00a9ea90@mail.pi.se>

Hello everyone!

>Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

<snip>

>Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
>that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
>An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
>perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
>planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
>come up eventually.

There is a simple way to make planets more dense without changing the basic 
composition. Bigger terrestrial worlds will have higher density because of 
compression, which is far more effective for bigger bodies. Just adding 
more rock will make the rock more dense.

Earth has a compressed density higher than Mercury, but the uncompressed 
density is considerably less. If a planet had the composition of Mercury 
and the radius of Earth, which potentially could happen in an decently 
iron-rich inner system with a major collision between two large rocky 
worlds, that planet would have even greater density than Mercury has, say, 
somewhere between 6 and 6.5. If a world with the composition of Earth is 
50% greater in radius it also would likely have higher density than Earth.

On the other hand, if we think of an Earth-size world with the composition 
of Mars, it would still have a density of say, 4.5 to 5. I'd argue a more 
common problem in RPGs is that densities for Earth-like worlds are too low. 
(Big world with low density to generate decent gravity-style.)

If we list some solar system bodies, with the compressed density first and 
the uncompressed density afterwards:

Mercury 5.4     5.3
Venus   5.2     4.3
Earth           5.5     4.5
Moon            3.3     3.2
Mars            3.9     3.8

Incidentally, this also means that the GURPS divisions into say, "low-iron" 
and "medium-iron" worlds is rather non-useful for terrestrial worlds of 
differing sizes than Earth.

When it comes to high densities, superjovians, brown dwarves and red dwarf 
stars are other examples of where a 100D-radius may be considerably 
different from a version based on tidal differential force. A small red 
dwarf star can have a density 50-100 times higher than the Sun - or any 
material on Earth, for that matter. A medium-size brown dwarf more than a 
billion years old could easily have a density several times greater than 
Earths average.

> > The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> > much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
>Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
>in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
>superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

A possible other reason is that Mercury experienced, just like Earth, major 
impacts which blew off quite a deal of the surface.

When it comes to hot superjovians, their escape velocity due to high 
gravity is enough to keep gasses from escaping. Those gas giants 
will  probably be bigger in radii than normal outer system gas giants can 
be, because of the energy they receive from the star. There was a nice 
paper on 51 Pegasi's inner planet, but I can't find it right now. If anyone 
is interested, mail me off-list and I'll provide the link when I find it...

>Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
>message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
>need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
>all.

I believe emphasis has its points, but emphasizing too many words, say one 
in ten, makes posts difficult to read without reading in a "tone" of the 
post. I usually overemphasize like _this_ far too often. ,-)

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:54:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:54:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20417.024825.4W7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019073068.7515.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Actually, as long as there are 20 grams of heavy metal in a 1 cm square
> column between you and the x-ray source, it still work. Doesn't matter
> if the column is 1 mm tall or 1 km tall. 

Doesn't really need to be heavy metal, heavy elements are a bit better, but the
difference is not terribly impressive.  However, a really thick barrier might
reduce the ability to penetrate armor by refraction, not sure to what degree
X-rays can be refracted without being absorbed.

20g/cm^2 sounds a bit high for typical x-rays, though.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:55:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:55:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
 <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417154328.0227e168@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:20 PM 4/16/2002, Stephen Tempest wrote:
>Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Yes, many years ago.  The figure was derived from the old DGP sector files 
using CT (Striker and TCS) figures.  I had MCr 219,474,958,700 for the 
Gross Imperial Product.  SO, no - the Imperium could not (in a million 
years) afford to build a jump-capable planet.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:56:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:56:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters (2nd try)
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417224940.00aac690@mail.pi.se>

Hello everyone!

>Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

<snip>

>Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
>that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
>An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
>perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
>planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
>come up eventually.

There is a simple way to make planets more dense without changing the basic 
composition. Bigger terrestrial worlds will have higher density because of 
compression, which is far more effective for bigger bodies. Just adding 
more rock will make the rock more dense.

Earth has a compressed density higher than Mercury, but the uncompressed 
density is considerably less. If a planet had the composition of Mercury 
and the radius of Earth, which potentially could happen in an decently 
iron-rich inner system with a major collision between two large rocky 
worlds, that planet would have even greater density than Mercury has, say, 
somewhere between 6 and 6.5. If a world with the composition of Earth is 
50% greater in radius it also would likely have higher density than Earth.

On the other hand, if we think of an Earth-size world with the composition 
of Mars, it would still have a density of say, 4.5 to 5. I'd argue a more 
common problem in RPGs is that densities for Earth-like worlds are too low. 
(Big world with low density to generate decent gravity-style.)

If we list some solar system bodies, with the compressed density first and 
the uncompressed density afterwards:

Mercury 5.4     5.3
Venus   5.2     4.3
Earth           5.5     4.5
Moon            3.3     3.2
Mars            3.9     3.8

Incidentally, this also means that the GURPS divisions into say, "low-iron" 
and "medium-iron" worlds is rather non-useful for terrestrial worlds of 
differing sizes than Earth.

When it comes to high densities, superjovians, brown dwarves and red dwarf 
stars are other examples of where a 100D-radius may be considerably 
different from a version based on tidal differential force. A small red 
dwarf star can have a density 50-100 times higher than the Sun - or any 
material on Earth, for that matter. A medium-size brown dwarf more than a 
billion years old could easily have a density several times greater than 
Earths average.

> > The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> > much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
>Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
>in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
>superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

A possible other reason is that Mercury experienced, just like Earth, major 
impacts which blew off quite a deal of the surface.

When it comes to hot superjovians, their escape velocity due to high 
gravity is enough to keep gasses from escaping. Those gas giants 
will  probably be bigger in radii than normal outer system gas giants can 
be, because of the energy they receive from the star. There was a nice 
paper on 51 Pegasi's inner planet, but I can't find it right now. If anyone 
is interested, mail me off-list and I'll provide the link when I find it...

>Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
>message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
>need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
>all.

I believe emphasis has its points, but emphasizing too many words, say one 
in ten, makes posts difficult to read without reading in a "tone" of the 
post. I usually overemphasize like _this_ far too often. ,-)

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:57:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:57:22 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020416222702.02624008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3CBDD666.1080706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> At 02:40 PM 4/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>> William Lane wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the 
>>> list. to
>>> everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off 
>>> topic
>>> info.
>>
>>
>> That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
>> XML to Cobol and back...
> 
> 
> 
> Way cool!  Can I add this to my Traveller Maintenance Blues page?
> <http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html> 
> 
> 
Why surely!

Hey everybody...this is blanket permission to put anything I write here 
on your web sites, if you want.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:58:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:58:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F18T2Y89RdrUnR65Cbk00002a25@hotmail.com>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Sam D writes:
> > Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to
> > enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign 
>judgments?
>
>No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
>difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in 
>state
>courts work.

I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home turf, 
because that is the only place you can collect.  That should discourage 
litigation, and make a lot of lawyers rich with asset protection seminars.  
Maybe some worlds would become big Switzerlands where the wealthy hide their 
dough.

So I guess you would sue free traders where there ship is registered, 
because that is where title would be?  Then how do you actually get 
possession if other worlds are free to ignore the judgments of other worlds?

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:58:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Marsh)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:58:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <F53kOhpWL26mtgK3jca000025a8@hotmail.com>

Just to muddy the waters a bit. I am not so sure that the ovaries are that 
more sensitive to radiation than, say, testes but that a womans lifetime 
supply of egg cells are produced at the onset of puberty and the ovaries is 
the time released delivery system. The older the woman the older the eggs. 
This is unlike the testes which make em fresh as they go.

The woman's eggs are more sensitive in that the older the eggs the longer 
the possible exposure to radioactivity over the years.

However, I would think all things being equal a woman's ovaries being 
internal vs testes being external would make the man's reproductive cells 
more prone to radiation induced errors.

ObTrav: Perhaps on a world where there was a high background level of 
radiation there might exist a market for healthy donor eggs from another 
planet.


>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: Re: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:25:31 +0300 (EEST)
>
>On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, David P. Summers wrote:
> > Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can
> > easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the
> > skin (or more than a meter or two of air).
>
>Hm, don't alpha particles have even less range than beta? I remember
>something like centimeter scale ranges in air.
>
>Of course, they won't penetrate the skin. Still, if you get them into your
>body, they are mighty dangerous: the heavier the particle, the greater the
>damage. (Alpha particles are helium nuclei, that is, two protons and two
>neutrons, and about 8000 times more massive than electrons which make up
>beta radiation.)
>
>--
>Mikko Parviainen
>"I quote signatures."
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


th

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:59:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:59:44 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020417.130803.-189643.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 08:39:43 -0700 Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> At 09:16 AM 4/17/02 +1000, you wrote:
> 
> >Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
> >are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
> >pointy stick :)
> 
> Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future leader 
> of men?  :P
> 
> Douglas E. Berry 

Nah, he's just a Butter Bar wanna be.

Like Lt. Gorman in Aliens

Hey Top, you take the men in, I'll just watch the camera's, and make sure
my boots don't get scuffed, oh, and once your in the meat grinder I'll be
here to lead you out.

Yes Sir, were on it. Vasquez you take point.


Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:00:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:00:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEICCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Pions can be created by the collision of matter and antimatter.
The creation time can be tightly controlled.  So the start point
for acceleration to relativistic speeds is therefore controlled.

It requires far less handwaving than that required for plasma/fusion
weapons.

Neither of the latter can produce a "bolt" of plasma that
can fly downrange, in air or in vacuum.  No guide beams, etc, 
are going to help.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:01:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:01:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204170923130.29728-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204170923130.29728-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8e39ddf9659@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:25 AM +0300 4/17/02, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, David P. Summers wrote:
>>  Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can
>>  easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the
>>  skin (or more than a meter or two of air).
>
>Hm, don't alpha particles have even less range than beta? I remember
>something like centimeter scale ranges in air.

Yeah.

>
>Of course, they won't penetrate the skin. Still, if you get them into your
>body, they are mighty dangerous: the heavier the particle, the greater the
>damage. (Alpha particles are helium nuclei, that is, two protons and two
>neutrons, and about 8000 times more massive than electrons which make up
>beta radiation.)

Energy is how heavy and how fast.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:02:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:02:32 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <20416.215513.5m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.215513.5m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8e39e6db7f9@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:55 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 1:28 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in
>>>   > near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near
>>>>   misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a
>>>>   single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?
>>>
>>>We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
>>>outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.
>>
>>  We are looking.  There is a program underway to catalog Earth
>>  crossing asteroids....
>
>Yes, but they are looking for the *big* ones, not the measly little
>hundred meter jobs. Detecting those would be nice, but if one hit it
>wouldn't be much worse than a big nuke.

Well, as you say, they would look for them if they could, so the 
original issue is we look for what we can see is valid.....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:03:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:03:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20417.014254.3E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20417.014254.3E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8e39f21e24f@[143.232.119.186]>

>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 7:00 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>   > The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also
>>>>   true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to
>>>>   another will depend on how far apart they are.
>>>
>>>You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
>>>depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
>>>ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
>>>forces).
>>
>>  I'm not sure what force you are talking about.  The force on any one
>>  part of the ship is the force of gravity.  Tidal forces are the
>>  relative difference in forces between different parts of an object.
>
>The "tidal forces" are due to a combination of gravity *and* motion.
>
>Remember, the ship is assumed to be in "free fall" (ie freely
>responding to gravity in some sort of orbit) when you figure the tidal
>acceleration due to the body the ship is orbiting (Note: I'm using
>"orbit" loosely, to include things like parabolic and hyperbolic
>trajectories)
>
>The "tidal forces" are due to differences in the strength of the
>primary's field and due to the motion of the ship in it's orbit.
>
>The magnitude of the forces depends not on the size of the *orbiting*
>body, but on the distance from the center of mass of that body, and
>what direction you are from the center relative to the line connecting
>primary and satellite.
>
>So, at a given distance from earth, the tidal forces at the center of
>mass of a ship due to Earth will be *zero*. At they will increase as
>you move away from that point. The direction and magnitude of the
>forces depends on the distance from that center and upon the direction
>relative to the line joining that point to the center of the Earth.
>
>Anything "attached" to the ship is subject to those forces.
>
>The forces will be the same at 100 meters in a given direction from the
>center of the ship whether the ship is a tiny scout with a pole
>sticking out in that direction or or 1 km long ship with that point
>being inside the ship.
>
>Secondary effects due to the mass distribution of the ship will modify
>those forces. But it's not the "size" of the ship per se that
>determines the strength or direction of the forces.

Motion has nothing to do with it.  If you take a ship and hold it 
stationary wrt the planetary body it will still encounter tidal 
forces.  If you had so much thrust that you could hold you ship 
stationary near a black hole, tidal forces can still tear the ship 
apart (and/or squeeze it together).

Lets look at this more generally.  Gravity changes with distance. 
That means that things that are at different spots experience 
different gravitational forces.  If these things are different 
objects, then their forces due to gravity (and their accelerations) 
are just different.

If these things are part of a rigid object, they can't have different 
accelerations and forces occur trying to pull the object apart (along 
the axis toward the body, it get squeezed together along the 
perpendicular axis).  This is the tidal force (or on aspect of it, it 
can also turn objects around, etc).  The bigger the object is, the 
further the different parts are apppart, the bigger the differences 
in the force of gravity, the  greater the tidal force is.

You are also being loose with the difference between tidal forces and 
tidal acceleration.  Different forces would produce different 
accelerations in different parts of the body if they weren't 
compensated by internal forces in the body (unless it is within the 
Roche limit and the body breaks up).

Getting to the original point.  The quantity that is close to being 
an explanation of the 100 diam limit is the gravitational gadient 
(the rate at which the force of gravity changes with distance).  Now 
this is, of course, is directly related to the tidal force (the tidal 
force depends directly on this and the size of an object) so some 
call it a tidal <this or that>.  I happen to think the gravitational 
gradient gives more intuitive feel for what the quantity represents.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:04:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:04:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes (was: Quick Query on US Tax Returns)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEDLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417162722.022054a8@mail.qrc.com>

At 08:31 PM 4/16/2002, Andy Brick wrote:
>ObTrav: What about tax returns in the Imperium?

I've tried various schemes in my Traveller games, and the thing that worked 
best was to ignore it entirely.  Here's the way it works IMTU:

The Imperium collects taxes from member worlds; as part of their 
membership, worlds agree to many things.  This includes the requirement 
that the world will pay taxes to the Imperium based on a percentage of the 
world's assessed Gross Planetary Product (GPP).  Most worlds are taxed at 
about 1% of their GPP; the exact rate may vary from world to world 
depending on the details (for example, a TL-1 world with a barter economy 
may not pay taxes at all).  Special taxes may also be assessed from time to 
time (for example, a war emergency tax); tax relief may also be provided in 
some cases.

The Imperial bureaucracy is responsible for setting tax rates, assessing 
GPPs, and ensuring the money is collected into the treasury.  In general, 
these operations are routine: GPPs are determined by the IISS Imperial 
Grand Survey and are generally well-known; world governments remit their 
taxes and the Imperial government has funds with which to 
function.  Enforcement (and the settlement of disputes) is the 
responsibility of the Imperial Nobility, who may be able to set policy 
(depending on their status and area of responsibility) and can call on 
Imperial resources (Navy, Marines, Army) to enforce it.

Individual citizens are not responsible for any taxes to the Imperium; 
there is no per-capita or personal income tax at the Imperial 
level.  Planet-bound corporations also do not pay Imperial taxes.  However, 
member worlds are free to tax their corporations and residents however they 
see fit; different worlds have different policies, and probably every tax 
or revenue-generation scheme that has ever been conceived is in operation 
somewhere in the Imperium.  Different worlds may have different ideas about 
who can be taxed (many worlds, particularly those with sealed environments, 
levy a tax on everyone who visits the world).

Active Imperial military, starship crews, and other travellers who do not 
generally reside on any particular planet do not generally pay 
taxes.  Some, who wish to retain citizenship on a particular world, will 
pay taxes anyway and may even participate in other civic responsibilities 
(voting, civil service, etc.) in absentia.

Imperial corporations (that is, interstellar corporations with an Imperial 
charter) do not pay taxes to any world, nor do they pay taxes to the 
Imperium.  However, long-standing custom dictates that when a corporation 
is granted an Imperial charter, the company gives the Imperial family a 
gift of small fraction (typically around 1%) of it's shares.  Many Imperial 
corporations, particularly those who are not otherwise owned or backed by 
nobles, also give smaller numbers of shares to other important nobles in 
their area of operations.

Thus, while taxes can be a motivating factor for political or economic 
events in my Traveller universe, they are not generally something that the 
PC's have to worry about (unless, of course, they happen to be outside of 
the starport extrality fence on New Hong Kong for Tax Notification Day).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:05:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:05:12 2002
Subject: [TML] The L-E Digest?
References: <F82qi8VjUwZcSlVviFl0000bd6b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBDF4DC.391C2BC0@premier.net>


Jeff Rowse wrote:
> 
>>snip>>
> 
> Jeff.
> "Who ordered the Meat Feast with extra Bantha?" - Pizza the Hutt.

In reference to your .sig file, check this page from BBspot:

http://bbspot.com/News/2002/04/before.html

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:07:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:07:23 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20416.220459.6d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net> <20416.220459.6d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020418082212.A31848@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?
...
> You want it because you were making such a fuss about not being able
> to use oxygen to convert methane to water and CO2 because you'd lose
> the oxygen if you threw away the CO2.

I did.  That doesn't mean I want to have a special LOX tank just in
case I can find hydrogen but not water.  Most of the time I'm going to
be buying water from the starport I'm docked at.  Most of the rest of
the time, I'll be getting it from iceballs or seas.  That's much safer
than gas giant skimming, if nothing else.  In a desperate situation, I
*might* come across a system that has a gas giant but no water.  (The
only plausible cases I can think of involve a gas giant inside the
star's 100D limit) In that case I can still skim hydrogen gas and
process it into the LHyd tank for a 1-parsec jump.  If there is any
water in the GG atmosphere (likely if there is no water elsewhere), I
can collect that too, diffuse though it may be.

In short, I don't need (nor want) LOX.  I don't need (nor want) to
burn methane.  I want *water*.


> Also, what version of Traveller are you running? Most version have jump
> fuel being the majority of the tankage?

GT, but I did the same in MT.  It is *my* Traveller universe, after
all.


> Only if the *mass* of the ship doesn't matter in your TU.

By and large, it doesn't.  In the OTU either.

The single overwhelming factor in determining the running cost of a
ship is the mortgage.  The single overwhelming factor within that is
the cost of jump drives, which depend entirely on *volume*.


> Only at the cost of *not* being able to refuel by scopping at a gas
> giant. The atmosphere is 90%+ hydrogen.

That just means you need to spend a bit longer scooping for the other
stuff, a time which in itself is relatively minor compared to the time
taken to get to and from a gas giant's 100D limit.  But why perform
that dangerous maneuver at all when you've got almost always got
lovely little microgravity water sources nowhere near so deep into a
100D limit?


> No, but you can't use the water for drinking,

I can after I remove the ammonia.


> and it needs special handling as ammonia water is corrosive.

Scary.  You were talking about hundreds of tons of cryogenic LH2.
Ever looked up the MSDS for that?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:11:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:11:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Bomb pumped lasers - was Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20020416221003.EBEC727A30@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16xlxZ-00044d-0W@anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net>

> I seem to recall something about X-ray lasers being developed, but they're not
> exactly weapons-grade.  The old SDI people talked about bomb-pumped X-ray
> lasers, a mechanism which AFAIK has never been successfully demonstrated, not
> that this prevent people from using it in SF.

So how theoretical or handwavium are bomb-pumped lasers? Is it just that we haven't developed the technology to successfully produce them, or is it that they're physically not possible?

Rob.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:12:07 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OF8A9C8510.72B94182-ON85256B9D.004D468D@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBD717E.1040301@magpiesnest.co.uk>

William Lane wrote:

 >
 >>> has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a
 >>> line at wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.
 >>>
 >
 >> Certainly have Bill (though now I tend to use JAXP, which is
 >> based around
 >>
 > Xerces but has differences). Send me your >questions and I will do
 >  my best to answer them for you.
 >
 > Here is what im doing im developing a java application that reads
 > an xml file and parses it into 3 seperate COBOL data files. the
 > cobol group eventually runs their apps and uses the data from
 > these flat files. once they are through they send them back to
 > me. i then want to parse these 3 files into a single new xml file.
 >
 > i have gotten to where i am creating the new document. i can append 
children on it ect.. ect..
 >
 > however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to 
actually be
 > written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im new to XML 
and Xerces
 > is not the best documented thing i have ever worked with. i was 
looking at
 > maybe using the serializer to send a outPutStream through it. but 
it would
 > seem to me that xerces should have a way of building this document 
out on
 > the drive.
 >
IMHO, the Serializer is the best bet because it will control the data 
structure better than writing direct to a FileOutputStream



-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk

 > > children on it ect.. ect..
 >
 > however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to
 > actually be written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im
 >  new to XML and Xerces is not the best documented thing i have
 > ever worked with. i was looking at maybe using the serializer to
 > send a outPutStream through it. but it would seem to me that
 > xerces should have a way of building this document out on the
 > drive.
 >
IMHO, the Serializer is the best bet because it will control the data 
structure better than writing direct to a FileOutputStream (although 
you can certainly do that if you like). The thing to remember is that 
when it is built an XML file is simply an ordinary text file with an 
".xml" extension instead of a ".txt" extension.

What I tend to do is use the DocumentFactory to create a new XML 
document, pile in the data by adding the nodes one by one, then grab 
the file I want to create (or update), delete the original (because 
its easier than setting a file lock) and write out the new file to the 
same filename. It isn't how it ought to be done, but I find it makes 
life easier.

Probably though, it would be worth your while taking a white paper off 
the www.java.sun.com page and seeing how it "should be" done. That way 
you are not just hacking code the way I do.

-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org> <3CBC9A4C.4000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CBD7023.2090608@magpiesnest.co.uk>

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> William Lane wrote:
> 
>>
>> Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the 
>> list. to
>> everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
>> info.
> 
> 
> That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
> XML to Cobol and back...
> 
> oBTRav> Captain finds engineer hip deep in the Jump drive controller 
> with an exceptionally old-looking piece of hardware in his hands.
> 
> Captain: "Good lord, Scottie! That's a jump *tape* reader! What is that 
> antique doing on my jump drive??"
> 
> Engineer: "Well Captain, we cannae find the right components to rrepair 
> the drive controller. Urgvark" he points to a crazed looking Vargr 
> assistant engineer, "...found this in a antique shop. We're tying it 
> into the saircuit right now."
> 
> C: "But how will we control it? I haven't seen a jump tape in my life 
> that wasn't in a museum!"
> 
> E:"Well Captain, I have a writing head from a holocorder here, we can 
> connect it to the main computer, and have it translate the control 
> instructions from the astrogation program to the correct patterns that a 
> jump tape would have. It should work, in theory, sah. " Shouts "OK 
> Urgvark! Give me some power..."
> 
> <SNAP> <Pop fsssssshhhhhh> "Turn it off! Turn it off!"
> 
> E: Through the smoke..."Ahh captain, we're going ta need some morrre 
> time..."
> 
> C: weeps.
> 
> 

Keyboard kill !!! And a waste of coffee :(

-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:21:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:21:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
 <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417154328.0227e168@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3CBDFF31.826843F6@premier.net>


Derek Wildstar wrote:
> 
> At 05:20 PM 4/16/2002, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> >Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?
> 
> Yes, many years ago.  The figure was derived from the old DGP sector files
> using CT (Striker and TCS) figures.  I had MCr 219,474,958,700 for the
> Gross Imperial Product.  SO, no - the Imperium could not (in a million
> years) afford to build a jump-capable planet.

Not even if they cashed in Betty Shugili (r) points from boxtops of
Groatburger Helper (r)? ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F18T2Y89RdrUnR65Cbk00002a25@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019084922.7419.ajackson@ping>

Sam D writes:
> >
> >No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
> >difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in 
> >state
> >courts work.
> 
> I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home turf, 
> because that is the only place you can collect.

Nah, if the defendant has a local office (sales outlet, whatever) you can sue
the local unit.

> So I guess you would sue free traders where there ship is registered, 
> because that is where title would be?  Then how do you actually get 
> possession if other worlds are free to ignore the judgments of other
> worlds? 

Well, as long as the free trader never visits the port where the judgement
against it was made, no problem.  If you ever visit that port, they can impound
your ship.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:24:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:24:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>

At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
>that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)

Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  Can 
I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
minds of men? I don't think so!

I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                     -Adam West, as Batman 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020418093454.A32118@freeman.little-possums.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!

Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
best minds in medical science?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020418095314.B32118@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Please contact Los Alamos and inform them that the meson accelerator
> that they have been using since 1968 is a fake.

I think you'll find that their mesons are *charged*, and furthermore
are moving at a really good clip when they are created.


> It sends beams of mesons out without irradiating the accelerator.

I bet it does.  It just doesn't induce significant amounts of
radioactivity in the walls of the beam tube.  Besides which, the
*density* of energy release is much greater in the target region
because the mesons collide with stuff, not decay there.


> The only items that become "hot" are in the target area.  Please
> explain how that is done.

It's pretty simple.  Pi mesons interact quite strongly with matter.
When the (remaining) mesons reach the target area, they don't "decay"
there.  They *collide*.  Collision products (and secondary products)
include a whole zoo of particles, and a few odd isotopes many of which
are radioactive with significant half-lives.

This is very different from the description of meson guns in
Traveller.  Traveller meson move unimpeded through matter, have
lifetimes instead of half-lives, and those lifetimes can be controlled
to within one part per trillion.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 18:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 17:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CBE0CC8.5010706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the 
>> fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
> 
> 
> Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
> injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  
> Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud 
> the minds of men? I don't think so!
> 
> I want my money (along with my spleen) back.
> 

But you got that back, didn't you?

Maybe that's the super power...'Grows Spleens'.

Nobody ever said it would be a GOOD superpower...;-P

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 17:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <3CBE0CC8.5010706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAGEIOCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Bruce and Doug complain about their lack of superpowers
<snip>

How do you think I feel?  I've straddled many a
thermonuclear warhead, in the forlorn hopes that
something would happen (super mutant children, for
one).

Nothing!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <p04330106b8e3cd72c219@[143.232.119.186]>

>At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the 
>>fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
>
>Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and 
>even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead 
>tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not 
>even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>
>I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that 
gets powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an 
"accident", so maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but 
whether it was "accidental".  :-)

(Though I wonder, how do you know you don't have any super powers? 
Have you _tried_ to change the course of a might river?)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <20020418093454.A32118@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417180901.009fd010@mindspring.com>

At 09:34 AM 4/18/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
> > Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> > tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> > even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>
>Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
>best minds in medical science?

That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm 
going to sue somebody.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:26:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20417.015559.9o2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFADPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi

> Also, the post I was replying to had the wrong density for Mercury, and
> had it being denser than earth. I didn't check my references until
> someone pointed out the error.

You were replying to my post, and the densities were correct there.

> The sort of normalcy I'm talking about is based soely on elemental
> abundances and the way a cloud of dust and gas collapses to form
> planets.

<lots of snippage>

> So only systems with *really* skewed elemental abundances will have
> worlds with densities much higher than Earth's. Or other *really* weird
> situations. The pulsatr planets, rocky planets that are insanely close
> to their primary (work out what would be left of Earth after a few
> billion years at 0.1 AU from the sun, for example). etc.

Well, since no-one yet fully understands the exact mechanisms by which said
cloud collapses, and since no one has yet surveyed any solar system in
detail other than our own, I'd say you were making some pretty big
assumptions about what is normal and what isn't. In addition, whilst
universal elemental abundances may in part define the mean abundance for a
given element in a given solar system, you will get local variations.
Finally, I was not looking at "really skewed" densities - I was looking at a
margin increase in the density of a terrestrial planet to 6g/cc or higher. I
would expect the densities of pulsar planets etc to be much higher than
that.

BTW, as an aside, Red Dwarfs display similar relative elemental abundances
to the Sun, but are many , many times denser.

> But that just showed that orbits weren't as stable as we thought, and
> that large bodies might form close to where the star did.

Not quite my point - this showed planets with volatile gases could survive
in the inner system, which previously had not been thought common nor
"normal". This in turn implies that your basis for "normalcy", i.e. our
solar system, may not be as normal as you think.

> They are still gas giants in most respects.

Off topic a bit this, but Superjovians are not mere gas giants, at least not
in the Jupiter/Saturn/etc sense. They are much larger (though still somewhat
short of Brown Dwarf status), and in these systems they are heated
considerably by virtue of the proximity to their primary.

> Thing is, if it wasn't rare, we'd see more variation in densities of
> objects in this system. Only bodies that get that dense are asteroid
> fragments.

Nonsense. As I am trying to get across to you, you cannot take this solar
system and assume that all other solar systems will be pretty much the same.
This bias is, in fact, a major gripe of mine with Traveller world generation
systems - they are very good at generating systems very similar to our own
but not so good at generating systems which aren't. You are taking a very
Sol-centric view of the universe.

What you are suggesting makes as much sense as examining one species of
insect, say a butterfly, and then assuming that all other species of insect
are very similar if not identical - when in fact they are not.

> The problem is managing to collect all that iron and then get *rid* of
> all the *rock* that had to accumulate with it.

One word - collision. Check out my earlier mail re the formation of the
Earth Moon system by collision with a body roughly equal to Mars. All of the
Moon is formed from the "rocky layer" of both protoplanets. Make the
impactor larger, and hey presto, more rocky material is knocked off into
space, leaving the cohesive core behind.

And collisions are very common early in the history of an accreting cloud,
after all.

> Rules of thumb are expected to work *most* of the time. and that's all
> the 100 diameter limit is.

Exactly - it's a rule of thumb. So don't bother trying to generate an exact
or precise derivation for it - you cannot have it both ways - either it's an
inaccurate rule of thumb, or a precise mathematical law. It can't be both.
You say one thing here, and something completely different at the end of
your mail.

> Sorry, but emphasis can change the meaning of a sentence. And convey
> extra meaning.

Sure. If used sparingly, and only where necessary.

> Harder for *you*, maybe. You are the only person I've ever heard make
> such an argument. And I'm far from the only person who uses them.

Not just for me, for many people.

Good netiquette is to make use of emphasis sparingly and only when
necessary. You do not do this. There was no need for example, to emphasise
the word "you" in the above sentence. It would have carried the same meaning
without.

I would suggest also that you read the guidelines for the clearer use of
English, published by the Campaign For Clear English.

> Also, they don't draw my eyes to such words. They modify the emphasis
> as I reach the word. They don't "pull" my eyes on ahead.

Then you read in a most unusual way. Most people I know, including my 5 year
old daughter, read one word at a time for sure, but are drawn to words in a
piece of prose that are highlighted or marked in some manner and will look
at those first. To give an example, my daughter has a book where the
sentence "The chicken laid an egg" has the word "egg" printed in red. This
word is the word that people see first, because it stands out, even if they
then read the sentence normally. To use emphasis on a whim as you do makes
the text distracting and hence harder to read, all with little or no extra
meaning to the reader other than that already available in the content
itself.

> By your argument, I shouldn't use emphasis in speaking either. And
> that's just plain silly.

No, I said that you shouldn't use unnecessary emphasis. There is also a
considerable difference between emphasis in  a block of text (where I can
see all of the emphasised or highlighted words first before I have reached
them) and emphasis in speech (where I have to wait to hear each word in
linear sequence, and cannot therefore be distracted by
future words). The brain is better at detecting difference than conformity,
you see.

> I emphasized it because if I was speaking I'd stress that word. That's
> not being patronizing, that's saying that I consider it very, very
> unlikely. Without resorting to overly awkward phrasing.

Why stop there, then ? Why not use stress markers to indicate which syllable
is stressed, or which sonant ? Why not add "beat" marks for pauses shorter
than commas ? Why not ? Because you don't need to, that's why. The reader is
perfectly capable of adding these details, given the context of the
sentence - it's part of the parsing effort of reading in the first place.
Also, you shouldn't need to resort to awkward phrasing to make a point.

> Work it out for yourself. Any "force" that is the same at X diameters
> (where X <>1) from bodies of different sizes *does* vary by the cube of
> the distance.  That's the way the geometry works. See below.

You missed the point. I don't dispute what you are saying, and I'm sure that
your math is perfectly correct, but you've gone off on a tangent. My
argument was that the 100 diameter rule is probably arbitrary, and given
that densities will certainly vary even if only over a limited range, using
tidal forces makes it no more uniform than any other derivation. Far better
to define a tidal gradient limit or gravitational field strength limit where
the misjump threshold is, and then calculate how many diameters out that is.
At least that way you don't need a mathematical false premise of uniform
densities across all planetary sizes in order to make the derivation fit the
rule. Of course this means that 100D is reduced to a rule of thumb, and the
actual distance varies from say 90 to 110D or whatever, but that makes more
sense.

In fact, making the 100D a rule of thumb probably means that this is a
"safe" threshold, and the actual limit occurs considerably closer, say
50-70D out but rarely higher. That means that 100D is almost always safe,
but usually way off the actual value. Compare with operational and critical
maximum dive depths for submarines, for example - the sub may take 450m of
water, but the manual may set a limit of 375m to be on the safe side.

> Work out the field strength at 100 diameters for size 1 thru 10 planets
> assuming densities similar to that of earth or even Mars. The figures
> are *way* off.

Now try the same with tidal forces where the Mars size planet has a density
equal to that of Mars, and the Earth sized planet has a density equal to
that of the Earth. Do you get the same answer ? No. This only works if all
of the 10 worlds in your calculation have the same density, which makes no
sense. Better to define jump limits in terms of field strengths, tidal force
values, etc, than a distance/number of diameters. Sure the distance will
vary, but the rule is then usable in all situations and is more internally
consistent.

Regards

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] That Traveller Sensation
Message-ID: <200204180138.ELB02368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Watching Forbidden Planet again...
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330106b8e3cd72c219@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417182539.009eb920@mindspring.com>

At 06:13 PM 4/17/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
>>>that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
>>
>>Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
>>injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead 
>>tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not 
>>even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>>
>>I want my money (along with my spleen) back.
>
>Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that gets 
>powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an "accident", so 
>maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but whether it was 
>"accidental".  :-)
>
>(Though I wonder, how do you know you don't have any super powers? Have 
>you _tried_ to change the course of a might river?)

I'm half tempted to say yes, just for the reaction...


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
                          -Chicago reader, 10/15/82


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020417200008.009f3500@mail.attbi.com>

Douglas Berry wrote:
 > Hey! How do you think I feel? I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
 > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
 > tube! Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers? Not
 > even. Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!

	Didn't you get the Control Penguins Power?  I thought you had, or maybe it 
was the Penguin Projection Power .  No, wait, isn't that the Bits project, 
Penguin Projection?  Geez, now I'm really confused. :)
	By the way, I just got my copy of ACQ.  You have been added to the list of 
games I will buy just because of the author's demonstrated competance.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3CBED3F3.19368.F24A04@localhost>

On 17 Apr 2002 at 8:31, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
> >that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
> 
> Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
> injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  Can 
> I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
> minds of men? I don't think so!
> 
> I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

Well I'd suggest re-growing an organ from nothing counts as a super-
power.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <200204171605.EGN07388@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost>

On 17 Apr 2002 at 12:05, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Doug gives advice:
> 
> >>Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
> >>are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
> >>pointy stick :)
> >
> >Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future 
> >leader of men?  :P
> >
> 
> God help them.  I'm almost of the opinion that officers 
> should be enlisted first.  Even academy cadets should 
> complete 2 years before going to the academy.

I'm very definitely of that opinion.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417222045.020ccec0@192.168.0.1>

At 08:31 AM 4/17/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
>>that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
>Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
>injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  Can 
>I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
>minds of men? I don't think so!
>I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

Oh come on...you *are* growing the spleen back.


------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Writing about jazz is like dancing about
architecture" -- Thelonius Monk
------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
In-Reply-To: <3CBDD666.1080706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020416222702.02624008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417222814.00cd62e8@192.168.0.1>

At 01:09 PM 4/17/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>>At 02:40 PM 4/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>William Lane wrote:
>>>>Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
>>>>everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
>>>>info.
>>>That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
>>>XML to Cobol and back...
>>Way cool!  Can I add this to my Traveller Maintenance Blues page?
>><http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html> 
>>
>Why surely!
>Hey everybody...this is blanket permission to put anything I write here on 
>your web sites, if you want.

Thanks!  It's up there now!



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F179u7r4LYhvH67DL5d0000f1ce@hotmail.com>

Anthony Jackson said

> > >No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
> > >difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in
> > >state
> > >courts work.
> >
> > I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home 
>turf,
> > because that is the only place you can collect.
>
>Nah, if the defendant has a local office (sales outlet, whatever) you can 
>sue
>the local unit.

If the defendant is big and has a local offices sure.  You can play games 
with that though, like having every local office as a separate corporation.  
Because the LIC is granted by the Imperium, local courts probably can not 
break through the corporate veil.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
Message-ID: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>

OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm 
getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.


Anything happen while I was gone?

Loren Wiseman

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
In-Reply-To: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8E37F0C.4CC96%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/17/02 7:31 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm
> getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.

done
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417180901.009fd010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEKFGKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

What if your new found super power is something like
"Manipulate Hivers"
"Jump successfully within 100 D"
"Explain why the islands aren't a Protectorate"

You know . . . useful things.

jml
who with a shovel can alter the course of smallish rivulets

>>>>>>>>>>

At 09:34 AM 4/18/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
> > Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> > tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> > even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>
>Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
>best minds in medical science?

That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm 
going to sue somebody.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:42:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:42:05 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
In-Reply-To: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAEEJDCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Loren comes back from the dead:

>Anything happen while I was gone?

Not much. I "do" have a question.

When you first started in on this,
back in the beginning of it all,
did you ever think that decades later,
the same players would endlessly 
discuss "canon" about the things 
you and the others wrote?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:47:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:47:25 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
References: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002b01c1e683$27970f00$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:31 PM
GDWGAMES@aol.com said,

> Anything happen while I was gone?

Just the attack of the Zhodani Penguin elite.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail". - Gore Vidal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:52:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:52:16 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
In-Reply-To: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEKHGKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Oh nothing.

Whistles innocently

Sure is nice weather isn't it

______________________________
Caesar:  I'm so mad, I just have to vent my spleen at someone

Brutus:  (fingering dagger)  Here, let me help

jml
______________________________ 


OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm 
getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.


Anything happen while I was gone?

Loren Wiseman
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEHHCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com>
>
>At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
>Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
>judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
>
>Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
>Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?
>
>What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?

Canon is generally silent on this question.  Milieu Zero posits rather an
intrusive Imperial legal system, but I think it withers over time as the
Imperium expands to the entire extent of the Ziru Sirka, and declines to
impose any but the mildest requirements on member states (calendar, Imperial
credit, abolition of slavery).

The questions you present therefore require answers on two levels: member
states and the Imperium itself.  As to member states, there are 11,000
different answers, so I won't comment further.

The Imperium itself must strike a balance between autocracy and sufficient
rule of law for commerce to function.  Access to the Imperial civil courts
will be limited to matters that involve only Imperial law, such as
interstellar commerce and certain disputes between nobles.

I've written pretty extensively on this topic in the past.  You might want
to check the TML archives.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes (was: Quick Query on US Tax Returns)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417162722.022054a8@mail.qrc.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEDLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
 <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020417223728.00a730f0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 05:35 PM 4/17/2002 -0400, Derek Wildstar wrote:

>Thus, while taxes can be a motivating factor for political or economic 
>events in my Traveller universe, they are not generally something that the 
>PC's have to worry about (unless, of course, they happen to be outside of 
>the starport extrality fence on New Hong Kong for Tax Notification Day).

Especially if you see a big Hoffmanite wearing an old X-Tel uniform running 
for the gate.

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sporadic announcement of traveller Webrings
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417234404.00ce37d8@mail.charter.net>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/TravRings.html>

I have all the Traveller related webrings I know of listed on this page.

I'm the RingMaster for the Gearhead ring & the Reavers' Deep ring.

Please feel free to join either of those if you have appropriate content.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417180901.009fd010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <003301c1e68b$dbbfb060$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Wednesday, April 17, 2002 6:09 PM
Douglas Berry said,

> That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm
> going to sue somebody.

Hey, Spleen Regeneration is a perfectly fine super power.  Just make sure
that you always take bullets in your spleen.

The bad news is your GM is going to charge you 30 character building points
for this advantage.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force. And,
like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master!"  -George
Washington


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 22:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 21:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F60NIPDrGsWt3ogiUBy000123e6@hotmail.com>

I am looking at an old article from JTAS (I think) called High Justice by 
Terry McInnes.  It deals with criminal cases, but I thought it would shed 
some light on civil law.  At the imperial and subsector level of justice, 
there are courts wtih 3-9 judges.  So, at least according to this article, 
there are courts of some sort and not just nobles dispensing justice.  FWIW.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 00:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 17 23:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <20020418093454.A32118@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204180939270.28080-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Timothy Little wrote:
> > Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> > tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> > even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
> Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
> best minds in medical science?

I think he is still missing the adamantium skeleton and the forearm
spurs...

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 04:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 18 03:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418055518.00a9a050@pop.wizard.net>

Bruce Johnson, regarding Law Level 0 worlds:
>Probably quite polite and formal, since it's likely heavily armed...and 
>the local citizenry is entirely likely to feel that maintaining public 
>order is incumbent on all members of society, as well as enforcement, 
>since LL0 worlds tend also to be low GOV worlds too.
>
>A good one to spring on a bunch of unsuspecting PC's...land them someplace 
>they're expecting to be Dodge City, and discover that it's anything but, 
>that their 'uncivilized' behavior is quickly, but firmly 
>corrected...permanently, if necessary...think a Heinleinian world of 
>self-reliant, armed and polite strangers...

I think the Dodge City reference is usually more apt than the Heinlein 
reference.  In other words, I'm thinking that territories of the United 
States before they became states, during the 1800s, are very instructive 
about the behavior of people when there's no law present.  Usually, low law 
level comes hand in hand with low population level.  The Malthusian 
pressures of population crowding are so low that nobody feels compelled to 
seek to arrange a government, police, and courts.  As population density 
increases, those things begin to be manifested.  Meanwhile, you can indeed 
get away with murder.  If you are more popular than the victim, and you 
have a good story to go along with it.  Or more feared than the victim's 
survivors.  Or you move to a distant part of the country.  Or you hang out 
with family and friends who will protect you or avenge your own death.  For 
fans of Westerns who are more familiar with the actual history of that time 
and place, 'McCabe and Mrs. Miller' is a much more accurate portrayal of 
the usual behavior in a lawless but armed society than an episode of 'The 
Lone Ranger'.

Another example that might be instructive is the evolution of the Mafia, 
Irish gangs, and Jewish gangs, and similar criminal organizations in the 
U.S. (a society that successfully ignored the law, and thus was de facto 
Law Level 0) during the 1900s.  Whoever threw their weight around the best 
got away with the most.  Both in relations between the gangs and relations 
within the gangs.  Exceptions to that rule of thumb tended to happen only 
when the law got involved or when the gangs ran their own private law in 
the form of treaties between gangs and courts run by 'nobles' and 'juries' 
within the gangs.

Heinlein is often invoked in the science fiction world as an example of 
libertarian principles at work.  I don't know how many have read his story 
'Coventry', which was set inside a huge area cordoned off by the U.S. and 
completely without laws.  Citizens of the U.S. who broke the law were 
banished to Coventry to live among the other people who felt they didn't 
need the law.  Contrary to the expectations of the rugged individualist who 
starts the story about to enter Coventry, the people inside Coventry 
evolved their own law, but one that was imposed by the biggest sharks in 
the pool and not so kind and gentle as the law they had just left 
behind.  This was Heinlein's story that most directly addressed the issue, 
and with writer as judge of the conflict between different poliltical 
systems, he clearly found in favor of the democratic one and against the 
libertarian one.

In my own science fiction (running MTU, for instance), I try to make things 
work the way I think it would probably evolve to work in those 
circumstances.  Except when I ignore that in the interests of what I think 
will make a good story, despite loss of realism.  :->  To me, a sparsely 
populated world, with little or no indigenous manufacturing capability is a 
frontier world and frontier justice is rough and the people who populate it 
are tough.  Feuds, mobs, lynchings, etc. occur.  Discharge of firearms 
within the town limits is something the more forward-thinking citizens, or 
at least business-minded citizens, would like to see stop but that doesn't 
stop the rowdy toughs coming through on a cattle drive from doing it.  I 
think that describes the situation of a lot of low law level systems.  That 
deals with systems where there is plenty of land to live on and it is in 
the process of being filled up by people.  Come back to the same spot in 
twenty-five years or even five years and it will be more populated and much 
less lawless.

There are also systems that have a low population that will never rise 
higher, usually because of poisonous atmospheres.  That is the kind of 
frontier that is most likely run as a corporate preserve, a mining 
town.  There is law, but not necessarily justice.  The law isn't law that's 
on the books.  It's just whatever the corporate managers need it to be at 
the time.

A third case of low law level worlds is when a noble administers a 
territory as his or her own private fief.  In that case, it's up to the 
noble how she or he wishes to run things.  That's the formal law.  It's 
also up to the noble to find some kind of police and other apparatus of law 
enforcement, so even a fief with lots of laws on the books may be a de 
facto Law Level 0 place.  The real world examples that most come to my mind 
are Imperial Russia, and the colonies in Africa, South America, and much of 
Asia that were run by the European powers.  A fictional example that a 
friend of mine completely bases his Traveller universe on is the first 
'Dune' book.

For me, those three categories cover most of the times in Traveller that 
you'll have low law levels.  The Dakotas and Utah in the middle 1800s, 
remote mining towns, and colonies or fiefs from various times and places in 
Earth's history.  In all of them, the law still tended to be present at 
least on paper and usually was more interested in representing the bigger 
businesses than anyone else.  The only truly Law Level 0 places I can think 
of from the real world were places that were so unexplored and thinly 
populated that humans never interacted with each other at all, hence no 
need for laws to regulate their interactions.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 04:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 18 03:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
References: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBEA2E8.3622281C@mindspring.com>

Jeff Rowse wrote:

> <snip>
> Jeff
> (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how
> much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight
> slows the game a little..?)

Yes, That's why I assume any hit on a player character completely destroys their
body, brain included.;)

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 04:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 18 03:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
References: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CBEA57A.C7BA93A2@mindspring.com>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm
> getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.
>
> Anything happen while I was gone?
>
> Loren Wiseman
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

No, We've been waiting for you.8)


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
References: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com> <3CBEA2E8.3622281C@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OE50n04x29xDbH8J0sc0000a9f3@hotmail.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:41 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)


> Jeff Rowse wrote:
>
> > <snip>
> > Jeff
> > (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how
> > much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight
> > slows the game a little..?)
>
> Yes, That's why I assume any hit on a player character completely destroys
their
> body, brain included.;)

With a massive explosion, to boot.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
 <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418064717.00a38870@pop.wizard.net>

Bill Scheets asked the following incisive questions:
>As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
>something:
>
>At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?

Not very.  Disputes between nobles are settled by higher nobles or the 
Emperor.  The political fortunes of nobles who get involved in a lot of 
disputes tend to be very bad, including even losing their noble 
title.  This conditions the population of nobles to work things out privately.

>Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?
>   Or are lawsuits rare and
>judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Depends on the planet.  This sort of thing usually belongs to planetary 
law, unless it deals with murder, slavery, or treason/sedition against the 
Imperium.  Each planet's law will be determined by its government, which 
may be as litigious or not as it wishes.

>Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?

Close to the Imperial core, planets tend to be high pop, high law level, 
and with a lot of interstellar commerce.  In such regions, the Imperium's 
wishes to maintain the flow of commerce are much more important than in 
other places.  Reciprocal agreements and extradition treaties between 
worlds have been in place for centuries are fully fleshed out, with 
sufficient bureaucratic backing and law enforcers to keep all that 
machinery running smoothly.  The to-us-familiar apparatus of courts and 
police and regulatory agencies is present, and this includes means of 
resolving civil disputes.  Nobles with power tend to be too busy to spend 
much of their time being directly involved in these matters, but will keep 
their hand in just enough to remind everyone who is boss.  Nobles with more 
title than power can (as has been suggested) and will be made use of to 
help with running the interplanetary justice system whenever things tend to 
bad for public relations or commerce.

Planets in the core will tend to have separate civil and criminal court 
systems.  Their jurisdiction only covers their own planetary governments 
borders.  Contracts between interstellar parties will state which 
jurisdiction they are contracted under, and that jurisdiction's courts will 
rule on disputes over the contract.  Interstellar libel and such will 
either get settled quickly, by a mechanism mutually agreeable to them, by 
the all governments with jurisdiction over the parties to the dispute or 
they can look forward to getting an Imperial noble take a hand in the 
disagreement.  Governments that can't work well with their neighbors in 
civil law disputes will start getting various kinds of pressure from their 
Imperial nobles to conform.  Nobles who also tend to have megacorp ties, 
and who control the gates of interstellar commerce between the worlds.

>Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

Sure, as are any other systems that the various planetary governments favor.


>What does canon have to say on this?

Not much.  The Imperium rules the space between the planets.  Government of 
men not law.  I vaguely remember some JTAS articles that describe the core 
of the Imperium as being much more an Imperial culture and Imperial 
government than the areas closer to the Imperial borders.  Out on the 
fringes, interstellar commerce is usually not as vitally important to the 
local governments and thus the Imperial nobles who govern those regions of 
space have less influence on the locals.  That's as my memory recalls it, 
and I caution that my memory is often unreliable.

Also canon that I think I recall is that the throne and nobles do tend to 
have significant power with the megacorps, and the megacorps tend to have 
significant power on the planets themselves.  And, presumably, the local 
government joined the Imperium to participate in promoting peace, order, 
and commerce and feel at least a little bit motivated to cooperate with 
each other in settling disputes between their citizens.  Or, maybe they 
just joined out of fear as people on the TML often joke, and deeply resent 
even the perception of infringement on their local authority.  The 
interstellar protection racket that is the Imperium is bad enough, in their 
eyes, without adding cultural imperialism and other interference in their 
planets' affairs.  I don't much believe in the protection racket model of 
the Imperium, but there's plenty of latitude in interpreting canon to 
permit it.  At least outside the core of the Imperium.

>   What do you have to say?

I've pretty much completely spilled my guts on the topic in this and my 
immediately preceding post.

Excellent topic and questions, by the way.  The kind of thing each referee 
should address and answer for themselves before they begin a campaign that 
involves interstellar travel.  Or even involves businesses that are 
interstellar.  We won't each have the same answers or the same Traveller 
universes, but that's part of the beauty of the Traveller game system.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020418.075038.-101319.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:13:54 +1000 (EST) =?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=
<quakers_united@yahoo.com.au> writes:
> QUOTE
> > Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> > bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's
> going
> > to see is a cloud of dust ;)
> 
> What, because you have dust in your veins instead of
> blood?  ;-)
> END QUOTE
> 
> No, because I am a vampire from buffy:the vampire
> slayer ;P

But then you would only have to worry if it was a *wooden* pointy
stick... most bayonets aren't made of wood, I suspect.  ;-)


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why Not? (was 'Why?')
Message-ID: <F270DabigPasSmz6UuE00011c1e@hotmail.com>

In mail, Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> responded to my 
somewhat ill-written missive thus...

>But these discussions ARE fun!

To which I reply...

Most of the time, anyway.  It is just that I have noticed that we often end 
up with some of us (myself included) saying "That wouldn't happen that way 
because..." - forex, Piracy or the effect of a ship's own hull and mass 
being within 100D of the jump point.
Whilst I appreciate the free education I receive from my fellow TML'ers (how 
much would a college or university charge for some of the stuff we give out 
for free??), I don't need to know it as a player character.

So, what is my ship's fuel tank lined with such that the Hydrogen doesn't 
seep out of it?  Ah, Unobtanium.  Wait a second, isn't that what powers the 
lasers I use to shoot holes in an Ethically-Challenged Merchant's ship?

As a matter of idle curiosity, does anyone *really* calculate such things as 
how much liver tissue was damaged, or is it just a case of "Sorry, there 
wasn't enough of the organ left to transplant"..?

Jeff.

"Abandon hope, all ye who press 'Enter' here..."

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 06:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Apr 18 05:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Thunderer class heavy cruiser
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEILEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

For those interested in the ships that could have thought in the
Interstellar War period I present the

THUNDERER CLASS HEAVY CRUISER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION


The Thunderer class were one of the first "battleship" designs built by the
Terrans following their contact with the Vilani.The rapidly advancing
technology of the Terrans soon made the design obsolete and they were
reclassified as heavy cruisers.

Designs effectively identical to the Thunderer continued to be built in
backwater areas and some of these managed to survive until the Second
Solomani Rim War when virus struck the region.

The relatively low tech level of the design meant that a large number were
passed on to client states, allies, and governments the Solomani were trying
to curry favour with. It is possible that at least some vessels of this
class are still in existance.


General Data Displacement: 90,000 tons  Hull Armour: 320
Length: 272 meters  Volume: 1,260,000 cubic meters
Price: MCr26,959.930864  Target Size: L
Configuration: Cylinder SL  Tech Level: 10
Mass (Loaded/Empty): 1,089,834.5929/1,020,193.4023tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 162,000 Mw Fusion Power Plant (50 Mw/hit), 1
year duration (959.888 Mw surplus)
Jump Performance: 2xJump-1 (126,000 cubic meters each)
G-Rating: 3 (45,000 Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G-Turns: 80 (102.4 allowing fuel for 1xJump-1, 124.8 with no jump reserve),
5,625 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 41,398

Electronics Computer: 3xTL10 Fb (0.6 Mw each)
Commo: 3x1,000AU Radio (8, 20 Mw ea), 3x1,000AU Maser (8, 0.6 Mw ea)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics
Sensors: 2xPassiveEMS Fixed Array 180,000km (6 hexes; 0.35 Mw ea),
3xActiveEMS 480,000km (DF Capable; 16 hexes; 315 Mw ea), 2xTL10 Neutrino
Sensor (0.01 Mw ea), 20x Running Lights (0.0001 Mw each)
ECM/ECCM: 300,000km EMS Jammer (10 hexes; 260 Mw), EM Masking (1,260 Mw)
Controls: Bridge with 662xBridge Workstations, Auxiliary Bridge with
662xBridge Workstations, Fire Control Bridge with 231xBridge, Flag Bridge
with 11xBridge Workstations, plus 2,430 Other workstations.

Armament Offensive: 1xTL10 30000-Mj N-PAW (Loc: Spinal; Arcs: 1; 4,166.667
Mw; 67 Crew), 40xTL10 812-Mj Laser 50-ton Bays (Loc: 10x4, 10x5; Arcs:
1,2,3; Loc: 10x16, 10x17; Arcs: 3,4,5; 112.778 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea), 280xTL10
130-Mj Laser Turrets (Loc: 70x2,70x3; Arcs: 1,2,3; Loc: 70x18,70x19; Arcs:
3,4,5; 18.0555 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea), 100xMissile Barbettes (Loc: 20x4, 20x5; 5
ready Missiles or Recce Drones ea; 0.15 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea)

 				Short  	Medium  	Long  	Extreme
30000-Mj Spinal N-PAW  	10:866  	20:866  	40:866  	80:866
-1 Diff Level
812-Mj Laser 50ton-Bay  8:1/23-71  	16:1/12-37  32:1/6-19  	64:1/3-9
-1 Diff Level
130-Mj Laser Turret  	3:1/9-29  	6:1/5-15  	12:1/2-7  	24:1-4
-1 Diff Level

Defensive: 30xTL10 Sandcaster Turrets (Loc: 10x1; Arcs: 1,2; Loc: 10x10;
Arcs: 2,3,4; Loc: 10x20; Arcs: 4,5; 1D10x5 per hit; 20 Cannisters ea; 1 Mw
ea; 1 Crew ea)
Master Fire Directors: 1xTL10 (3 Diff Mod; Non-Msl; 10 hexes; 13.22 Mw; 1
Crew), 40xTL10 (3 Diff Mod; Non-Msl; 8 hexes; 11.43 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea),
140xTL10 (3 Diff Mod; Non-Msl; 3 hexes; 8.074 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea), 50xTL10 (3
Diff Mod; Beam/Missile; 10 hexes; 13.37 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea)

Accomodations
Life Support: Extended (252 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (1G; 6300 Mw)
Crew: 5,492 (2,430xEngineering, 10xElectronics, 4xManeuver, 748xGunner,
522xMaintenance, 150xShip's Troops, 74xFlight Crew, 1,310xCommand,
199xStewards, 45xMedical), Flagship adds 12 (5xElectronics, 6xCommand,
1xSteward)
Crew Accomodations: 8xLarge Staterooms (0.001 Mw each), 2,050xSmall
Staterooms (0.0005 Mw each), 550xLow Berths (0.001 Mw each)
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 9,651.2 cubic meters, twenty eight large cargo hatches
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: 10 95-ton Cinnabar class shuttles with
internal hangers (minimal) and one launch port each, 2 50-ton Shrike class
fighters with internal hangers (minimal) and one launch port each, and 8
40-ton Pelican class launches with internal hangers (minimal) and one launch
port each
Air Locks: 900
Additional Fittings: 3x8-ton Sick Bay (0.8 Mw each), 5x10-ton Machine Shop
(1 Mw each), 5x6-ton Electronics Shop (0.6 Mw each)

Notes:

Fuel purification machinery (1,123.2 Mw) sufficient to purify 140,400 cubic
meters in 6 hours (30 hours for entire load exclusive of power plant fuel).
Fuel scoop capacity 252,000 cubic meters per hour.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  Surface Hits  		Internal Explosion  				Systems
1  	1-13:Ant  			1:PA,2:Sand,3-20:Qtrs  				PP-3240H,
2-3  	1-13:Ant  			1:PA,2-3:LB,4-15:Elec,16-20:Hold  		LS-1702H,FPP-1545H,
4-5  	1-3:Ant,4-5:AL  		1:PA,2-3:LBy,4:MB,5-14:Qtrs,15-20:Hold
ELS-851H,JD-756H,
6-9  	EMMR  			1:PA,2-20:Hold  					PA-391H,
10   					1:PA,2:Sand,3-20:Hold  				Hanger-384H,
11  	1-2:AL,3-6:CH,7-9:EMMR 	1:PA,2-20:Hold  					MD-135H,
12-13   				1:PA,2-20:Hold  					EMM-126H,
14-15	1-10:LP  			1:PA,2-20:Hold  					LBy-10H,LB-2H,
16-17   				1:PA,2-3:LBy,4-8:Eng,9-20:Hold  		AEMS-1H,ElecShop-1H,
18-19	1-2:AL  			1:PA,2-3:LB,4-20:Eng  				EMJammer-1H,
20   					1:PA,2:Sand,3-20:Eng  				LSR-1H,MB-1H,
   												MFD-1H,MFAnt-1H,
   												MachineShop-1H,
   												Neutrino-1H,
   												PEMAnt-1H,
   												Sand-1H,
   												SickBay-1H,
   												EMMR-(1260h),
   												SSR-(2h),
   												All others-(1h)

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 07:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Thu Apr 18 06:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

  I'm almost of the opinion that
> officers 
> > should be enlisted first
Amen to that. Was it ever like that though? Does
anybody know when it stopped if it was? And Why?
I think it instills elitism in the wrong kind of
people and the wrong kind of people are less likely to
be patient enough for a couple of years as a grunt.
Not to say that we don't have some fine officers now,
but they still need to know what it's like to be
treated like a pawn in a chess game. I doubt this
ideology would work well for pilots though.
I was never in the military,but was in AFROTC for a
while,we had a great bunch of guys and gals(with a
couple of bad eggs) but I don't know if they had it
where it counted or not. In ROTC you see a lot of
people with their heads way up in the clouds.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 08:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Thu Apr 18 07:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #416 - 37 msgs
Message-ID: <F50D2nTe1CIGj0gsmDz0000076e@hotmail.com>

In mail, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
wrote...
<<SNIP>>
Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
minds of men? I don't think so!

I want my money (along with my spleen) back.
<</SNIP>>

I dispute that third point.
<zombie_mode>
"Must get GT:Ground Forces...  Don't need food...  Dont need coffee...  Just 
Ground forces..."
</zombie_mode>

Jeff.

"Black helo?  What black helo?  <pause>  Oh sh**!"

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 08:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 18 07:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8E429CE.4E9EA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/18/02 6:46 AM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> I'm almost of the opinion that
>> officers 
>>> should be enlisted first
> Amen to that. Was it ever like that though? Does
> anybody know when it stopped if it was? And Why?

Just bear in mind that there is a reason for the distance between officers
and enlisted (speaking as one who has been both).  As officers you will be
required to give orders to your men that will result in their death or
maiming.  You will know this before hand.  It requires a certain detachment
(at least for non-sickos) to order men to their deaths.

I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that an officer should be required
to be enlisted first.  It's hard to say.  I've seen both kinds of officers,
some good and some bad.  I've seen people who came up through the ranks have
a hard time maintaining 'distance' from their people. Also, the duties of
the two groups are very different.

I suppose one could look at how we've done so far.  The vast majority of our
(US) officers come from ROTC.  We seem to be doing OK.  If it ain't broke,
don't fix it.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 08:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Thu Apr 18 07:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
References: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com> <3CBEA2E8.3622281C@mindspring.com> <OE50n04x29xDbH8J0sc0000a9f3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBEDD60.2050002@gmx.net>

Jeff Yin wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:41 AM
>Subject: Re: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
>
>
>>Jeff Rowse wrote:
>>
>>><snip>
>>>Jeff
>>>(By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how
>>>much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight
>>>slows the game a little..?)
>>>
>>Yes, That's why I assume any hit on a player character completely destroys
>>
>their
>
>>body, brain included.;)
>>
>
>With a massive explosion, to boot.
>
more likely: a massive explosion leaving behind a pair of smoking boots...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 09:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 08:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAGEIOCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3CBEE39B.6060103@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Bruce and Doug complain about their lack of superpowers
> <snip>
> 
> How do you think I feel?  I've straddled many a
> thermonuclear warhead, in the forlorn hopes that
> something would happen (super mutant children, for
> one).
> 
> Nothing!

Well did you wave your hat around and yell 'Yeee Haaa!' ???



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 09:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 18 08:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418055518.00a9a050@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 06:43:42AM -0400
References: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020418055518.00a9a050@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020418091957.A21336@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 06:43:42AM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> I think the Dodge City reference is usually more apt than the Heinlein 
> reference.  In other words, I'm thinking that territories of the United 
> States before they became states, during the 1800s, are very instructive 
> about the behavior of people when there's no law present.

Not just that, but large numbers of young men and very few women.  In
fact, ISTR a Scientific American article some years back examining
just that subject.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I don't want to achieve immortality through my work.  I want to achieve
it by not dying.                                          --Woody Allen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 09:55:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 08:55:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020417200008.009f3500@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418084245.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>

At 08:07 PM 4/17/02 -0600, you wrote:

>         Didn't you get the Control Penguins Power?  I thought you had, or 
> maybe it was the Penguin Projection Power .  No, wait, isn't that the 
> Bits project, Penguin Projection?  Geez, now I'm really confused. :)

Maybe I do cloud the minds of mortal men..

>         By the way, I just got my copy of ACQ.  You have been added to 
> the list of games I will buy just because of the author's demonstrated 
> competance.

Wow. Thank you, and hope you enjoy shooting things with glee.  Just 
remember one rule. Never spend more than half you APP in your round, unless 
you are ambushing someone. Always leave enough to react to the other guy's 
move.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:17:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:17:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330106b8e3cd72c219@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019146600.6212.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:
> 
> Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that 
> gets powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an 
> "accident", so maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but 
> whether it was "accidental".  :-)

Nah, it can be 'test subject'.  Captain America, for example.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Charge accumulation
Message-ID: <200204181629.EMH01314@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I remember when doing sling loads with helicopters, that 
before you attach the sling, you have to ground the hovering 
helicopter.  If you don't, you can get a shock powerful 
enough to throw you to the ground.  It's an accumulation of 
static by the rotor blades moving through the air.  Rather 
like a Van de Graff device.  You can also see the rotor tips 
glowing from this charge at night, especially using night 
vision.

Well, in Traveller, we're in a metal ship. We are constantly 
being bombarded by ions flowing from the nearby star.  Does 
our ship accumulate any charge?  If you park two ships near 
each other, is there a charge differential?  Is it 
significant?  If I touched both of the ships at the same 
time, would the charge difference want to flow through me?

Do engines such as HEPLAR exacerbate this charge difference 
by pushing charged material away from the ship?

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEHICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>
>
>Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to
>enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?

If the Imperium allows its members to go to war with one another, it
certainly does not require them to enforce each others' judgments.

Whether a world will enforce a judgment rendered on another world depends on
various factors:  does a treaty between the worlds govern the issue? if not,
do standards of comity apply? what is the current political situation
between the worlds?  There is plenty of work for lawyers in a system as
complex as the Imperium.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:42:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:42:49 2002
Subject: ret: [TML] New Filk
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHJCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I put this up on my Live Journal, but it didn't get much response there, so
>I'd thought I'd post it here.
>
>Flaming Eye

Common brigands seek interstellar support by recasting themselves as racial
freedom fighters -- I like it!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204181647.EMH04030@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson asks
>
>Well did you wave your hat around and yell 'Yeee Haaa!' ???
>
Indeed.

There are many opportunities to relive moments from various 
movies when you are in a nuclear missile unit.

One interesting thing:  I ended up writing a bit of software 
to keep track of the status of the battalion's missiles 
(which ones were away, counting, etc.).  The various platoons 
would report their status via the program over radio modem 
rather than by voice.  In the requirements, they wanted to 
know time of flight, but didn't care about time of impact.

I put it in anyway.  During one exercise, the officers were 
crowded around in the BCC, drinking coffee after the count, 
and I interrupted the festivities by announcing, "<name of 
city>, impact in 5.. 4... 3... 2.."  Everyone was very upset, 
as they didn't even want to think about what happens after 
they succeed in launching.

Never, ever sign someone up as an infantryman, and then tell 
him halfway through his term that "because you were a 
programmer in civilian life, we're going to make you one 
here, because we're short programmers.  We don't know who 
assigned you here, but we've no use for you otherwise.".

The consolation prize was that when not writing programs, I 
had the keys to the arms room.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Charge accumulation
In-Reply-To: <200204181629.EMH01314@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019148621.4086.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> Well, in Traveller, we're in a metal ship. We are constantly 
> being bombarded by ions flowing from the nearby star.  Does 
> our ship accumulate any charge?

Probably.

> If you park two ships near each other, is there a charge differential?
> Is it significant?  If I touched both of the ships at the same 
> time, would the charge difference want to flow through me?

Once grounded, any charge should dissipate fairly rapidly.
> 
> Do engines such as HEPLAR exacerbate this charge difference 
> by pushing charged material away from the ship?

No, it seems to eject plasma, with a probable net charge of zero.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204180015090.24858-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020417010106.E5149279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418125300.0228bff0@mail.qrc.com>

At 06:28 PM 4/17/2002, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>Do you mean 9,000 systems rather than the 10,000 there's supposed to be?
>IIRC the figures are 11,000 worlds in 10,000 systems

Back in the day, my analysis of the old sector data files found about 
10,500 worlds coded Imperial (or for imperial cultural regions), so that's 
what my Imperial GNP figure was based on.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 10:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Charge accumulation
In-Reply-To: <200204181629.EMH01314@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418095458.009eb9c0@mindspring.com>

At 12:29 PM 4/18/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I remember when doing sling loads with helicopters, that
>before you attach the sling, you have to ground the hovering
>helicopter.  If you don't, you can get a shock powerful
>enough to throw you to the ground.  It's an accumulation of
>static by the rotor blades moving through the air.  Rather
>like a Van de Graff device.  You can also see the rotor tips
>glowing from this charge at night, especially using night
>vision.

I learned that you had better check this for yourself rather than trust the 
new guy to actually have done this.  If I had hair, it would have been 
standing on end.  As it was, I had a nasty burn on my foot where the charge 
exited my body and an irregular heartbeat for several hours, enough to get 
me a free helicopter ride out of East Rain.

>Well, in Traveller, we're in a metal ship. We are constantly
>being bombarded by ions flowing from the nearby star.  Does
>our ship accumulate any charge?  If you park two ships near
>each other, is there a charge differential?  Is it
>significant?  If I touched both of the ships at the same
>time, would the charge difference want to flow through me?

SOM had ships with probes to allow discharge of accumulated charges, and to 
attract lightning bolts during wilderness refueling.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 11:05:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 10:05:17 2002
Subject: ret: [TML] New Filk
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHJCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418095901.009f31b0@mindspring.com>

At 09:35 AM 4/18/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> >
> >I put this up on my Live Journal, but it didn't get much response there, so
> >I'd thought I'd post it here.
> >
> >Flaming Eye
>
>Common brigands seek interstellar support by recasting themselves as racial
>freedom fighters -- I like it!

(Takes bow)

I got the inspiration while reading a book about Anne Bonney and Mary Read 
at the same time as a book about the mythical Werewolf units, SS troops 
that were supposed to start a guerilla war against the Allies. It struck me 
that some Vilani would refuse to surrender, and go pirate.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Thu Apr 18 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Some Info...
Message-ID: <OF98BD72DE.DB3A42D5-ON85256B9F.005EA550@pheaa.org>

do we have any Aeronautical Engineers on the list?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 12:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Thu Apr 18 11:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Some Info...
References: <OF98BD72DE.DB3A42D5-ON85256B9F.005EA550@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBF16E6.327D72C5@virgin.net>

William Lane wrote:

> do we have any Aeronautical Engineers on the list?
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Yes.  Me!

Si

And there is one other i believe.

:-)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 13:58:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 12:58:24 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020418082212.A31848@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20418.115507.2p7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?
> ...
>> You want it because you were making such a fuss about not being able
>> to use oxygen to convert methane to water and CO2 because you'd lose
>> the oxygen if you threw away the CO2.
>
> I did.  That doesn't mean I want to have a special LOX tank just in
> case I can find hydrogen but not water.  Most of the time I'm going to
> be buying water from the starport I'm docked at.  Most of the rest of
> the time, I'll be getting it from iceballs or seas.  That's much safer
> than gas giant skimming, if nothing else.  In a desperate situation, I
> *might* come across a system that has a gas giant but no water.  (The
> only plausible cases I can think of involve a gas giant inside the
> star's 100D limit) In that case I can still skim hydrogen gas and
> process it into the LHyd tank for a 1-parsec jump.  If there is any
> water in the GG atmosphere (likely if there is no water elsewhere), I
> can collect that too, diffuse though it may be.

At reasonable altitudes that water is going to be *really* scarce.

>> Only at the cost of *not* being able to refuel by scopping at a gas
>> giant. The atmosphere is 90%+ hydrogen.
>
> That just means you need to spend a bit longer scooping for the other
> stuff, a time which in itself is relatively minor compared to the time
> taken to get to and from a gas giant's 100D limit.  But why perform
> that dangerous maneuver at all when you've got almost always got
> lovely little microgravity water sources nowhere near so deep into a
> 100D limit?

Don't ask me. The rules seem to think it's a good idea. :-)

>> No, but you can't use the water for drinking,
>
> I can after I remove the ammonia.

>> and it needs special handling as ammonia water is corrosive.
>
> Scary.  You were talking about hundreds of tons of cryogenic LH2.
> Ever looked up the MSDS for that?

You are stuck handling the stuff anyway. The difference between
"minimal" tankage for it, and storing all your fuel that way isn't
going to change the hazards all that much.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 13:59:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 12:59:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEEDDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20418.120147.7F3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> >> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
>> >> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were 
>> "boiled" off.
>> >
>> > Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
>> > a nitpick.
>> 
>> I was going by the figures in the post I was responding to, which had a
>> higher density listed for Mercury.
>
> No, they didn't. I quoted 5.43 for Mercury, 5.52 for Earth.

The *original* post (not yours) quoted 5.56 for Mercury.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:00:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:00:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417165617.00a9ea90@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <20418.120339.3g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
>>that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
>>An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
>>perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
>>planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
>>come up eventually.
>
> There is a simple way to make planets more dense without changing the basic 
> composition. Bigger terrestrial worlds will have higher density because of 
> compression, which is far more effective for bigger bodies. Just adding 
> more rock will make the rock more dense.
>
> Earth has a compressed density higher than Mercury, but the uncompressed 
> density is considerably less. If a planet had the composition of Mercury 
> and the radius of Earth, which potentially could happen in an decently 
> iron-rich inner system with a major collision between two large rocky 
> worlds, that planet would have even greater density than Mercury has, say, 
> somewhere between 6 and 6.5. If a world with the composition of Earth is 
> 50% greater in radius it also would likely have higher density than Earth.

On the other hand, unless that collision happened *really* late in the
formation of the system, such a plent would tend to collect a lot more
gas and other stuff, and possibly wind up as a mini-GG.

Above a certain point, you get runaway accumulation of material, which
results in a gas giant of some sort.

*Where* that point is is subject to a lot of debate as we don't have
enough of a sample set to draw the line except *very* broadly. 

Also, that major collision is just as apt to scatter pieces of those
rocky world halfway across the system.

> On the other hand, if we think of an Earth-size world with the composition 
> of Mars, it would still have a density of say, 4.5 to 5. I'd argue a more 
> common problem in RPGs is that densities for Earth-like worlds are too low. 
> (Big world with low density to generate decent gravity-style.)

I haven't noticed that much.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:01:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:01:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20418.120911.8p9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hi
>
>> Also, the post I was replying to had the wrong density for Mercury, and
>> had it being denser than earth. I didn't check my references until
>> someone pointed out the error.
>
> You were replying to my post, and the densities were correct there.

No. The posts where I referred Mercury being denser were replies to a
post that had Mercury being denser than earth.

Check the levels of quotes. 

> BTW, as an aside, Red Dwarfs display similar relative elemental abundances
> to the Sun, but are many , many times denser.

Yes, but that's due to factors that don't apply to *planets* to any
great extent.

>> Work out the field strength at 100 diameters for size 1 thru 10 planets
>> assuming densities similar to that of earth or even Mars. The figures
>> are *way* off.
>
> Now try the same with tidal forces where the Mars size planet has a density
> equal to that of Mars, and the Earth sized planet has a density equal to
> that of the Earth. Do you get the same answer ? No.

Yes, but you apparently missed the part that shows that to make the
inverse-square forces come out anywhere near equal at 100 diameters,
the *smaller* world has to be the denser one. Having it be less dense
makes the mismatch *worse*.

This is exactly the *opposite* of your example.

With equal densities, the inverse-square forces at 100 diameters is
greater for larger worlds in direct proportion to the ratio of the
diameters of the worlds. 

So, assuming that the forces are in direct proportion to the mass of
the planet, to get them to match at 100 diameters, the density of the
larger world must be lower. 

Since this is the exact oposite of the situation for "typical" (in
Traveller) "worlds" (ie what gets generated as mainworlds and non-GG,
non-asteroid/cometary halo bodies) invoking density differences as
a reason to prefer inverse square forces (acceleration due to gravity,
"slope" of the gravity well, etc) over inverse cube forces (tidal
acceleration, curvature of space, etc) is silly.

> This only works if all
> of the 10 worlds in your calculation have the same density, which makes no
> sense.

But that's what the rules *explicitly* state in the first three books.

It's also a good way to make a first cut at analyzing the problem. Vary
*one* property and see what happens in your calculations. This lets you
eliminate the obviously wrong hypotheses (such as "jump limits are
based on inverse square forces"). Then you add in other variables (such
as density) and see what you get.

It's not that different than starting out by calculating Earth's
gravity as if the planet was a perfect sphere of uniform density. A
simplification to get first order results to compare to your data.

> Better to define jump limits in terms of field strengths, tidal force
> values, etc, than a distance/number of diameters. Sure the distance will
> vary, but the rule is then usable in all situations and is more internally
> consistent.

Which is what I advocate. So why are you objecting?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:02:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:02:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEICCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20418.122806.4f6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Pions can be created by the collision of matter and antimatter.
> The creation time can be tightly controlled.  So the start point
> for acceleration to relativistic speeds is therefore controlled.
>
> It requires far less handwaving than that required for plasma/fusion
> weapons.

Slight problem. You *can't* control the direction the created pions are
moving in. Nor the velocity. All you can say is that the vector sum of
the momenta of the pions will equal that of the original
proton/anti-proton pair. 

And neutral pions can't be affected by electric or magnetic fields,
making focusing them more than a little difficult.

Artifically generated gravity would solve this. Alas, it requires field
strengths that can't be generated in Traveller. Or if they *can*,
they'd make various other things possible that we don't see.

Then again, the same is true of the "grav-focusing" of lasers. 

> Neither of the latter can produce a "bolt" of plasma that
> can fly downrange, in air or in vacuum.  No guide beams, etc, 
> are going to help.

True enough. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:03:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:03:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Timothy Little says
>>They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half 
>>of the original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has 
>>elapsed, 1/4 decay in the next half-life period, 1/8 in the 
>>half-life after that, etc.
>
> then it's not possible to accelerate *any* mesons at all, 
> given their half-life.  Almost all of them would be gone 
> before they got to the end of the accelerator.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

> Please contact Los Alamos and inform them that the meson 
> accelerator that they have been using since 1968 is a fake.  
> It sends beams of mesons out without irradiating the 
> accelerator.  The only items that become "hot" are in the 
> target area.  Please explain how that is done.

Maybe you need to check out *how* the mesons are created. Usually, it's
done by bombarding a target with a more stable particle (such as
protons or heavy ions) which gives a shower of mesons that are already
moving at relativistic velocities. Then those are fed into a
second-stage accelerator which "loses" non-mesons as the accelerating
fields are varying at the wrong rate for particles with a different
charge to mass ratio.

Or they may use other techniques.

Thing is, what we've been saying about half-lives *is* correct. The
existence of the accelerator doesn't change that. It merely means that
some of *your* assumptions about how it operates are incorrect.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204182026.EMP00817@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

It would seem that the effects of the LAMPF facility's beam 
is lethal enough at 800 MeV, and they plan to raise it to 
80GeV.  

Even without the magical meson effects, the mesons they 
accelerate seem to be able to do enough damage as it is.  
They also seem to be able to accelerate protons, and produce 
neutron beams.  A neutron beam, to me, would seem ideal.  You 
would permanently irradiate the target, etc.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204182026.EMP00817@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019163077.9084.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> It would seem that the effects of the LAMPF facility's beam 
> is lethal enough at 800 MeV, and they plan to raise it to 
> 80GeV. 

Shrug.  Lethal for what?  Large quantities of radiation are bad for things. 
> 
> Even without the magical meson effects, the mesons they 
> accelerate seem to be able to do enough damage as it is. 

Sure, but we call this a 'Particle Accelerator'.  A meson beam has fairly
typical PAW effects.
 
> They also seem to be able to accelerate protons, and produce 
> neutron beams.  A neutron beam, to me, would seem ideal.  You 
> would permanently irradiate the target, etc.

Actually, at high energies just about any type of beam will induce radiation in
the target, since it will tend to blow nuclei apart.  In fact, by around 1 GEv
there's no particular difference in penetration between any particles that
interact via the strong force (including pions, neutrons, protons, and the
relevant antiparticles); in all cases penetration is comparable to cosmic rays,
with a typical penetration of 50-100 grams/cm^2 before the first collision
(this results in a cascade effect as new particles are created; the continued
penetration of the cascade depends on the energy level of the particles, but
500 grams/cm^2 is suitable for 90+% shielding against multi-GEv primary cosmic
rays).

Since meson guns are less affected by armor than conventional particle beams
(which are probably proton accelerators) there must be some special particle
involved.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204182056.EMP04739@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

80 GeV sounds like a weapon.

So you're saying at this power level, there's no difference 
in penetration for protons, neutrons, etc.?

Would a stream of positrons be any worse for the target?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 15:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 14:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEHLCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>
>
>Anthony Jackson said
>
> > >No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
[quotation deleted]
> > I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home
[deletion]
>Nah, if the defendant has a local office (sales outlet, whatever) you can
>sue the local unit.
>
>If the defendant is big and has a local offices sure.  You can play games
>with that though, like having every local office as a separate corporation.
>Because the LIC is granted by the Imperium, local courts probably can not
>break through the corporate veil.

Whatever the answer, it's clear that the Far Future will be a paradise for
lawyers.  Cha-ching!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 15:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 14:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204182056.EMP04739@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019164377.5758.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 80 GeV sounds like a weapon.

Depends how many particles you have.  80 GEv is a respectable weapon if you
have 10^15 particles or so (total energy ~13 MJ)
> 
> So you're saying at this power level, there's no difference 
> in penetration for protons, neutrons, etc.?

Pretty much.
> 
> Would a stream of positrons be any worse for the target?

Lower penetration, actually.  Best choice for penetration would be muons (for a
neutral beam, perhaps muonium, which is an 'atom' formed by an electron and an
anti-muon, or a positron and a muon)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 15:53:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr 18 14:53:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019146600.6212.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1019146600.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8e4f059a959@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:16 AM -0700 4/18/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>>
>>  Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that
>>  gets powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an
>>  "accident", so maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but
>>  whether it was "accidental".  :-)
>
>Nah, it can be 'test subject'.  Captain America, for example.

OK, so maybe you get super powers if you are exposed to "accidental" 
or "untested" levels.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 17:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 16:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
Message-ID: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>

Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable whatever it is that 
makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML coding? I tried a quoted message and it 
ended up an unholy mess.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 17:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 16:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
Message-ID: <621638DD.3A102E03.02280B06@aol.com>

GDWGAMES@aol.com writes:
> Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable 
> whatever it is that makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML 
> coding? I tried a quoted message and it ended up an unholy 
> mess.

I don't know if you *can* turn off the HTML coding. Gotta
be able to use those cutesy little smileys and special fonts,
after all.

Meanwhile, since at least 6.0 the standard Internet-style
quoting (with the '>' marks) no longer works. I now copy
the text I want to quote to the clipboard, then hand-edit
the '>' marks into the quoted block. Annoying, but the
result is at least clean and readable to multiple email
clients.

---
Jon



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20418.120911.8p9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEGHDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi

> Yes, but that's due to factors that don't apply to *planets* to any
> great extent.

True, but it was an example of relative abundance being irrelevant to
density, and as such it still stands.

> Yes, but you apparently missed the part that shows that to make the
> inverse-square forces come out anywhere near equal at 100 diameters,
> the *smaller* world has to be the denser one. Having it be less dense
> makes the mismatch *worse*.

I'm not trying to make anything work at 100 diameters. I'm pointing out the
flaw in your insistence of using 100 diameters. Also, my point was that the
densities would be different, so the tidal force argument doesn't work
either. 100D is an arbitrary rule, period. There is no magic formula unless
you cook the books.

> But that's what the rules *explicitly* state in the first three books.

Lots of stuff in the three LBBs has been superceded. Do you really still
generate worlds with just the basic rules ? Or do you use the World
Builder's Handbook, or Book 6, or First In ? If you do, you'll find that
density is not uniform.

> Which is what I advocate. So why are you objecting?

My original post in this thread was to do with the maximum mass for a
starship before its own gravitational field caused a misjump, a logical
extension of the existing canon background. I seem to remember you corrected
me and told me that tidal forces must be the reason for the 100 diameter
rule, which then reduced the maximum mass and/or density of a starship
before a misjump occurred to smaller than a Type S Scout. I'd disagree with
the latter consequence as it is inconsistent with the background.

Anyhow, we're arguing over nothing. Let's call it a day. IYTU, do as you
will shall be the whole of the law.

Regards

Andy Brick










---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 17/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20418.143129.3R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> My courts apply the same burden of proof in both civil and criminal
> cases, in my case "on the balance of probabilities" rather than
> "beyond reasonable doubt". Juries are not a recognised concept and
> instead panels of nobles ranging from one to the entire moot,
> depending on the case, make decisions after hearing argument. It does
> not take a genius to work out that the system is highly open to abuse.

Problem is, "beyond reasonable doubt" and "jury of your peers" *both*
came about because of abuses.

Jury of peers dates back to the Magna Carta and was put there by
*nobles who were upset about abuses by the king. And note that "jury of
your peers" basicly means nobles would get tried by nobles.... <eg>
I can't see a stable Imperium *not* having something like that. At
least at some levels. 

And if you define "peers" properly, it works with both "government of
men, not laws" and nobles having "extra" priveleges.

the beyond reasonable doubt bit is also apt to develop if only because
convicting innocent people tends to get their friends and relatives
upset with the government. 

And if someone is a vassal of a noble, the noble is going to insist on
stronger evidence as well.

On the other hand, we have (at least) two different system to draw
from. In the "French" system, the "proving" of guilt is relegated to
the "police" side of things. It's (supposed to be) harder to file
charges without a lot of proof. But once filed, you have to prove
yourself innocent.

The "English" system has the filing of charges be much simpler, but
then at trial (supposedly) they have to prove you guilty. 

I suspect that there are other systems to be found in history. 

Local governments should be pretty free to have laws that don't
conflict with Imperial interests. And to be as "just" or "unjust" as
they care to be, as long as it's (theoretically) possible for people to
leave.

Commercial laws may actually be more uniform, simply because the
Imperium is an empire based on "free" trade. Which means it pretty much
requires the laws covering contracts and the like to be uniform. 

What sort of contracts are legal may vary from world to world. But the
rules on drawing them up, enforcing them, and assigning liability for
failures will be fairly standard.

The *penalties* on the other hand... <eg>

So while the decision as to the validity of a contract and whether or
not one party has failed in carrying out there part might be much the
same on the homeworld of each party, the legality of the good or
service contracted for may vary greatly. As may the consequences of
failure to carry out the contract.

On world A, defaulting may merely involve either "best effort" to
correct the failure with financial liability up to the value of the
good/service or the bankruptcy limit (whichever is smaller), on world B
defaulting may result in becoming an indentured servant of the other
party until you can make good the loss. and on world C the damaged
party may be able to opt to have you tortured or even put to death,
with a scale set up based on the magnitude of the loss. 

So which world's law governs could be *really* important. And the PCs
who don't check into the details could really regret it. <g>

> There is no real distinction between civil and criminal law at the Imperial 
> level. Instead all cases are treated in the same way and dealt with through 
> the same channels. The main difference is that in some cases precedent holds 
> that the court should appoint Imperial investigators to gather evidence. In 
> other cases the burden of investigation lies entirely with the litigant. 

Aside from Imperial crimes, most "Imperial" level litigation will be
civil anyway. Salvage cases, contracts that get appealed (not many
will, unless the situation is either complicated or the parties to the
contract specified that Imperial courts would be used to resolve
problems), etc.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:25:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:25:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F18T2Y89RdrUnR65Cbk00002a25@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20418.145258.6Y3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
>>Sam D writes:
>> > Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to
>> > enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign 
>>judgments?
>>
>>No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
>>difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in 
>>state
>>courts work.
>
> I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home turf, 
> because that is the only place you can collect.  That should discourage 
> litigation, and make a lot of lawyers rich with asset protection seminars.  
> Maybe some worlds would become big Switzerlands where the wealthy hide their 
> dough.
>
> So I guess you would sue free traders where there ship is registered, 
> because that is where title would be?  Then how do you actually get 
> possession if other worlds are free to ignore the judgments of other worlds?

That's *why* the Imperium pretty much *has* to enforce some sort of
rules about contract laws when more than one world/government is
involved. Otherwise trade becomes much harder to carry on. And that's
not good for the Imperium.

Civil cases that don't affect interworld trade and criminal cases that
don't violate the few Imperial "criminal" laws will only get dealt with
if some noble with jurisdiction (ie a noble from an involved planet, a
susector level noble from the subsector the dispute is in, etc) decides
to get involved.

So, if you can get a noble from your planet involved, you may get some
action. But only if he can get the noble in charge of the other planet
interested in discussing it with him.

Better is if the worlds are in the same sub-sector and you can
get a subsector-level noble involved as he has authority over both
worlds. If they are in different subsectors, but the same sector, then
you need to get a sector level noble interested. 

If they are in different sectors but the same domain, then you may need
the Archduke to get involved. And if they are in different domains,
you'll have to appeal to the Emperor. 

And if you are dealing between the Imperium and some other interstellar
polity, it could get *really* ugly.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:25:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:25:41 2002
Subject: [TML] The L-E Digest?
In-Reply-To: <F82qi8VjUwZcSlVviFl0000bd6b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20418.163302.7i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In mail, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) asked:
>
>>Nah, if everyone who goofed did that who'd be posting? :-)
>
> <tongue-in-cheek>
> Um, just you?
> </tongue-in-cheek>

Excuse me? I'm far from infallible. As should be obvious from a few
recent posts.... :-(

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <007901c1e739$fb4c0560$9bb18b90@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm
> going to sue somebody.

It could be worse.  Have you seen the (very fine) movie 'Mystery Men'?  You
could have become The Spleen.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBF6B82.9FD041AE@mailbag.com>

> From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
>
> Heinlein is often invoked in the science fiction world as an example of
> libertarian principles at work.  I don't know how many have read his story
> 'Coventry', which was set inside a huge area cordoned off by the U.S. and
> completely without laws.  Citizens of the U.S. who broke the law were
> banished to Coventry to live among the other people who felt they didn't
> need the law.  Contrary to the expectations of the rugged individualist who
> starts the story about to enter Coventry, the people inside Coventry
> evolved their own law, but one that was imposed by the biggest sharks in
> the pool and not so kind and gentle as the law they had just left
> behind.  This was Heinlein's story that most directly addressed the issue,
> and with writer as judge of the conflict between different poliltical
> systems, he clearly found in favor of the democratic one and against the
> libertarian one.

Thank you for remembering this. I knew there was a quite well written
refutation in his work but I had forgotten the name. 

As a fairly hard lefty (hey I am a member of the DSA.
http://www.dsausa.org if you don't know them. Keep in mind that I keep
that link  in my religion folder... ;') I had a difficult time
understanding some of his works when I was a teen. The way "Coventry" is
written makes it very clear that a democracy that passes things against
his ideals is a better place to him than a tyrany that is exactly in
line with his thought. It's also useful to understand that one can
respect while disagreeing. 

 I've learned alot from his books - and even more after I did 16 years
in the US Army/National Guard/Army Reserve. OTOH, it's fun sometimes to
be the token lefty... 

William
-- 
You better watch out    What you wish for;
It better be worth it   So much to die for.
                                Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 18 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20418.143129.3R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>; from shadow@krypton.rain.com on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 02:31:29PM -0800
References: <cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84@aol.com> <20418.143129.3R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020418190201.A22643@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 02:31:29PM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> Jury of peers dates back to the Magna Carta and was put there by
> nobles who were upset about abuses by the king.  And note that "jury
> of your peers" basicly means nobles would get tried by nobles....

And commoners by commoners.  I believe it was Blackstone who commented
that all this ties into the presumption of innocence, fair trial,
burden of proof on the prosecution complex.  The idea being that
commoners are more likely to favour their own, and nobility their own,
and thus that things are slanted in favour of the defendant.  Which is
a Good Thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron--more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to mankind.
                              --Mirelle Stein, The Productive Class

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 19:04:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 18 18:04:37 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>; from GDWGAMES@aol.com on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 07:30:44PM -0400
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020418190346.B22643@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 07:30:44PM -0400, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>
> Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable whatever it
> is that makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML coding? I tried a
> quoted message and it ended up an unholy mess.

Does AOL offer SMTP and (POP3 or IMAP) to its subscribers?  If so, you
can use any mail client you wish.  I understand that Mozilla's is very
good, for those who like GUI clients.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A PC without windows is like a chocolate cake without mustard.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Thu Apr 18 18:08:02 2002
Subject: Officer Candidates (was Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets)
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBF6DB5.E1C86E36@mailbag.com>

> From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
>   I'm almost of the opinion that
> > officers
> > > should be enlisted first

I've long felt that not only should prior service be required, but that
promotion to E-5 be required before acceptance into any officer training
program. This, essentially, requires that the gentle serves at least one
term as a grunt first. I've seen some who took the OCS test in the
middle of basic who weren't any better than the ROTC things that we
occasionally got stuck with. OTOH, pointers were far worse...  
 
As a soldier and as a sergeant, I always respected the mavericks far
more - if they gave you a shit detail they had probably shoveled the
same shit at some point. Unlike any of the rest.

William
-- 
You better watch out    What you wish for;
It better be worth it   So much to die for.
                                Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:08:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:08:11 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20418.214954.3L6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable whatever it
> is that makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML coding? I tried a
> quoted message and it ended up an unholy mess.

	http://expita.com/nomime.html


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:12:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:12:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a@aol.com>

--part1_21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always had trouble with 
the idea of a line of seperately-designed launchers being required to fire 
"sand", so I decided to just do away with them IMTU; allowing the typical 
missile launcher to fire several different types of munitions; with "sand" 
being used in its usual role as a screen to counter incoming missiles or 
energy beam fire, as well as it acting as a fairly effective antipersonnel 
weapon (Striker, bk2).
  -Ken Murphy-
  
   
   
   

--part1_21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always had trouble with the idea of a line of seperately-designed launchers being required to fire "sand", so I decided to just do away with them IMTU; allowing the typical missile launcher to fire several different types of munitions; with "sand" being used in its usual role as a screen to counter incoming missiles or energy beam fire, as well as it acting as a fairly effective antipersonnel weapon (Striker, bk2).
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR> &nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:17:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:17:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
Message-ID: <200204190140.EMZ01428@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was just looking at something called Electric Tokamak, and 
I noticed that in one of the pictures, they were using 
hydrogen plasma, and in a few others, helium plasma.  I 
thought that this was strange, since no machine built yet 
achieves a high beta (high enough to break even, that is).

In their "introduction" section, they talk about the machine 
being able to use "low-neutron yield fusion fuels" in the 
future with this design.

It makes me think that their intent in the end is to use 
helium rather than hydrogen.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:19:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:19:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Could some kind soul please contact me off-List with some links to 
sites that list various combat formation TO&Es?  I've tried Google until my 
eyes crossed with no avail.  As you all well know, I'm not the sharpest tool 
in the shed and my surfing abilities suffer as a consequence.
     The recent TML thread discussing unit TO&Es and the well deserved 
praise for Mr. Berry's accomplishments regarding them in GT:GF gave me cause 
to flush all the unit descriptions in my "Dirty Little War" project.
     Specifically, I'm interested in TO&Es from the turn of the last 
century, say the 1905/Russo-Japanese War to 1918/Great War range.  This 
implies large squad automatic weapons, clunky AFVs, and early combat 
aircraft.
     Thank you.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:21:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:21:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <007901c1e739$fb4c0560$9bb18b90@computer>
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418190001.009e85e0@mindspring.com>

At 10:34 AM 4/19/02 +1000, you wrote:
> > From: Douglas Berry
> > That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm
> > going to sue somebody.
>
>It could be worse.  Have you seen the (very fine) movie 'Mystery Men'?  You
>could have become The Spleen.

No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!

"Ah, the Disco Room!"


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:24:05 2002
Subject: Officer Candidates (was Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets)
In-Reply-To: <3CBF6DB5.E1C86E36@mailbag.com>
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418221746.020382a8@192.168.0.1>

At 08:07 PM 4/18/2002 -0500, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:
> > From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
> >   I'm almost of the opinion that
> > > officers
> > > > should be enlisted first
>I've long felt that not only should prior service be required, but that
>promotion to E-5 be required before acceptance into any officer training
>program. This, essentially, requires that the gentle serves at least one
>term as a grunt first. I've seen some who took the OCS test in the
>middle of basic who weren't any better than the ROTC things that we
>occasionally got stuck with. OTOH, pointers were far worse...
>As a soldier and as a sergeant, I always respected the mavericks far
>more - if they gave you a shit detail they had probably shoveled the
>same shit at some point. Unlike any of the rest.

Back when I was a young lad, dear old dad wanted my brother and I to go to 
West Point.

After his tour in scenic Southeast Asia, the tune changed to, "You boys 
wouldn't embarrass your father by going to a military academy."


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!
Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>

On Thursday 18 April 2002 21:37, you wrote:

> Maybe you need to check out *how* the mesons are created. Usually, it's
> done by bombarding a target with a more stable particle 

Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel" 
problems: Nuclear Damping Technology. Obviously this is used inside the 
barrel (And maybe for some distance outside it... remember, Nuclear Dampers 
work at some range... on the order of 30,000 KM. Meson Screens are obviously 
a special type of Nuclear Damper, specifically tuned to decay mesons. If you 
can do that, you can surely do the opposite: Prevent them from Decaying, or 
massively reduce their decay rate) in order to prevent your mesons from 
decaying too early. Mesons are obviously generated, en-masse, by nuclear 
damper style technology also, set up for very short range (i.e. meters, or 
centimeters) but extremely powerful and finely controlled damper-style 
fields. 

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
In-Reply-To: <200204190140.EMZ01428@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204190140.EMZ01428@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020419184155.A3066@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> It makes me think that their intent in the end is to use helium
> rather than hydrogen.

I would suspect that they intend to study any number of modes of
operation very thoroughly.  To me they seemed to be concentrating more
on pure hydrogen plasmas at the moment, but that would be because this
is meant to be a controlled experiment of their theoretical method,
not a commercial fusion operation.

I did notice a few hydrogen/helium runs, though.  We'll have to see
what the future holds when they see how well this mode of operation
conforms to theory.  :)


With these advances, it looks like large-scale commercial fusion power
is only about twenty years away!
;^>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>

Brian Caball wrote:
> Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel" 
> problems: Nuclear Damping Technology.

The only problem is, why doesn't a meson gun then function
automatically as a perfect meson screen?  If you can prevent your
mesons decaying over distances of up to millions of kilometres, why
can't you ensure that the other guy's mesons don't decay within a
range of twenty metres?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
Message-ID: <200204190855.BAA14300@ping.iii.com>

Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> writes:

>On Thursday 18 April 2002 21:37, you wrote:
>
>> Maybe you need to check out *how* the mesons are created. Usually, it's
>> done by bombarding a target with a more stable particle 
>
>Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel" 
>problems: Nuclear Damping Technology. Obviously this is used inside the 
>barrel (And maybe for some distance outside it... remember, Nuclear Dampers 
>work at some range... on the order of 30,000 KM. Meson Screens are obviously 
>a special type of Nuclear Damper, specifically tuned to decay mesons. If you 
>can do that, you can surely do the opposite: Prevent them from Decaying, or 
>massively reduce their decay rate) in order to prevent your mesons from 
>decaying too early. Mesons are obviously generated, en-masse, by nuclear 
>damper style technology also, set up for very short range (i.e. meters, or 
>centimeters) but extremely powerful and finely controlled damper-style 
>fields. 

True, nuclear dampers do imply a lot of bizarre manipulations of decay
rates that it's very difficult to explain in a way that wouldn't prove
instantly lethal to all life.  Considering that pions are the primary
exchange particle of the strong force, nuclear dampers would be expected
to influence them.

Doesn't help much with the problem of 'mesons aren't notably penetrating
particles'.  Of course, explaining how nuclear dampers don't change the
laws of physics in ways that are instantly fatal to life is also a trick.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
Message-ID: <200204190857.BAA28058@ping.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>I was just looking at something called Electric Tokamak, and 
>I noticed that in one of the pictures, they were using 
>hydrogen plasma, and in a few others, helium plasma.  I 
>thought that this was strange, since no machine built yet 
>achieves a high beta (high enough to break even, that is).
>
>In their "introduction" section, they talk about the machine 
>being able to use "low-neutron yield fusion fuels" in the 
>future with this design.
>
>It makes me think that their intent in the end is to use 
>helium rather than hydrogen.

It probably is.  D-He3 is the easiest of the low-neutron fusion fuels
to ignite.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 03:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Apr 19 02:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>

On Friday 19 April 2002 09:45, you wrote:
> Brian Caball wrote:
> > Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the
> > barrel" problems: Nuclear Damping Technology.
>
> The only problem is, why doesn't a meson gun then function
> automatically as a perfect meson screen?  If you can prevent your
> mesons decaying over distances of up to millions of kilometres, why
> can't you ensure that the other guy's mesons don't decay within a
> range of twenty metres?

It's probably set to a long thin beam... hence the range. the manufacturers 
probably also supply the shorter range, general purpose, multidirectional 
meson screens. 

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 03:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 02:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020419190352.C3066@freeman.little-possums.net>

>  If you can prevent your mesons decaying over distances of up to
> millions of kilometres, why can't you ensure that the other guy's
> mesons don't decay within a range of twenty metres?

I just thought of an even more extreme example: meson communicators
function across *billions* of kilometres.  They should make you
completely immune to meson weapons if they can prevent decay at that
range.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 03:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 02:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net> <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020419192132.A3299@freeman.little-possums.net>

Brian Caball wrote:
> It's probably set to a long thin beam... hence the range. the
> manufacturers probably also supply the shorter range, general
> purpose, multidirectional meson screens.

But then why are meson screens so expensive and not perfectly
effective?  They don't need anywhere near as much coverage as a
multi-million kilometre beam, even if it is thin.  Covering a mere
starship should be utterly trivial by comparison.

On the other side of the issue, altering the decay properties of
mesons means that you don't actually need to fire anything at the
target: mesons are fundamental to the processes that hold nuclei
together.  Tamper with them, and every nucleus bigger than hydrogen
alters its energy to an extent that makes fusion look "slightly warm".

Just wave your "meson damper" over the target, then shut down your
sensors and get behind a sandcaster cloud before the flash reaches
you.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 05:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 04:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
Message-ID: <200204191113.ENR03407@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>
>With these advances, it looks like large-scale commercial 
>fusion power is only about twenty years away!
>;^>
>

That's what they said back in the 1970s
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 05:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 04:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204191118.ENS00157@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>
>No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!
>
>"Ah, the Disco Room!"
>

I would be happy to be Invisible Boy
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 05:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 19 04:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Andy Akins Still Around?
Message-ID: <3CC003DA.D3F8EBBE@earthlink.net>

Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Akins?

I'm trying to contact him re: his T4 ship design spreadsheet
but the andyakins@earthlink.net address from his website
keeps bouncing email.

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 6:46, Daniel Tackett wrote:

>   I'm almost of the opinion that
> > officers 
> > > should be enlisted first
> Amen to that. Was it ever like that though?

Not that I know of.

 Does anybody know when it stopped if it was? And Why?

The modern system has its origins in Medieval Europe, with knights 
evolving into the aristocratic officer class, etc.

> I think it instills elitism in the wrong kind of
> people and the wrong kind of people are less likely to
> be patient enough for a couple of years as a grunt.

That's also my feeling.

> Not to say that we don't have some fine officers now,
> but they still need to know what it's like to be
> treated like a pawn in a chess game. I doubt this
> ideology would work well for pilots though.

Pilots are made into officers for reasons of tradition and there's no 
real reason for them to be, no matter what they might say on this.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <B8E429CE.4E9EA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC0B25F.15316.840B8C@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 7:44, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Just bear in mind that there is a reason for the distance between
> officers and enlisted (speaking as one who has been both).  As
> officers you will be required to give orders to your men that will
> result in their death or maiming.  You will know this before hand. 
> It requires a certain detachment (at least for non-sickos) to order
> men to their deaths. 

However also remember that a platoon sergeant (the position, not the 
rank) will also have to do this at some point, and he will always (in a 
western style army, anyway) have 'come up', and should be close to his 
men. Likewise a Section Commander/Squad Leader will be very close to 
his men (and probably was 'one of the men' only a year previous), and 
yet they have to order their squad into deadly situations all the time.
 
> I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that an officer should be
> required to be enlisted first.  It's hard to say.  I've seen both
> kinds of officers, some good and some bad.  I've seen people who came
> up through the ranks have a hard time maintaining 'distance' from
> their people. Also, the duties of the two groups are very different. 

However the split between 'admin' (NCOs) and 'command' (officers) 
starts at the squad leader - 2IC level, and they're both NCOs.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418084245.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20020417200008.009f3500@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <3CC0B2AB.3922.85344E@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 8:44, Douglas Berry wrote:

> Wow. Thank you, and hope you enjoy shooting things with glee.  Just
> remember one rule. Never spend more than half you APP in your round,
> unless you are ambushing someone. Always leave enough to react to
> the other guy's move. 

I thought the rule was "Always ensure you're outside the ambush, firing 
in."

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:25:02 2002
Subject: Officer Candidates (was Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets)
In-Reply-To: <3CBF6DB5.E1C86E36@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <3CC0B556.15473.8FA124@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 20:07, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:

> I've long felt that not only should prior service be required, but that
> promotion to E-5 be required before acceptance into any officer training
> program. This, essentially, requires that the gentle serves at least one
> term as a grunt first. I've seen some who took the OCS test in the
> middle of basic who weren't any better than the ROTC things that we
> occasionally got stuck with. OTOH, pointers were far worse...  

I don't think I'd go so far as to require getting to E-5. What makes a 
good NCO isn't always the same thing that makes a good officer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020419125210.3554.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I want my money (along with my spleen) back.


Chalk up another virtual Keyboard kill to Doug.  I,
like others, have learned not to drink at the
computer, at least for this list.  And, yes, I may be
a day behind, but I got yesterday's project finished
before quitting time.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 09:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419192132.A3299@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
 <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
 <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419111058.040af780@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:21 AM 4/19/2002, Timothy Little wrote:
>Brian Caball wrote:
> > It's probably set to a long thin beam... hence the range.
>
>But then why are meson screens so expensive and not perfectly effective?
>On the other side of the issue, altering the decay properties of mesons 
>means that you don't actually need to fire anything at the target [...] 
>Tamper with them, and every nucleus bigger than hydrogen alters its energy 
>to an extent that makes fusion look "slightly warm".

Here's a non-canon, but possibly workable suggestion for you: what if a 
"meson gun" is basically a "laser" for the whatever-it-is that makes meson 
screens (presumably some variant of damper technology) work.  In this case, 
it's tuned to affect mesons so that the field causes a release of energy 
and radiation as atoms in the target break down.

Let's further postulate the following, for no particularly good reason than 
they make the "meson gun" work similarly to the way it is described in the 
Traveller canon:

- The weapon beam is laser-like, so that it is reasonably small and can 
affect targets at a great distance, but must be focused or tuned for 
maximum effect at a specific range.  Lower power beams are much easier to 
focus and control than high-powered ones, so that meson communicators can 
have a greater range than meson weapons.

- For whatever reason, only a tiny fraction of the atoms in the focus point 
of the beam are affected enough so that they break down. The higher the 
power of the beam, the greater the percentage of atoms that break down and 
the larger the release of energy.

- The breakdown of atoms in the beam is significantly enhanced by supplying 
radiation to "kick off" a chain reaction.  Therefore, weapons-grade meson 
guns fire some type of particle beam at the target as well.

- Meson screens interfere with the ability of the meson gun beam to cause 
atoms to break down.  This is not an "all-or-nothing" proposition; the 
screen interferes with but does not block the weapon beam, protecting the 
ship to a greater or lesser degree.

The canon Traveller explanation of how a meson gun works can then be 
thought of as a simplified explanation (similar to what you would get if 
you asked a present-day layman for an explanation of the sun's energy 
source), or a deliberate obfuscation on the part of the high-tech 
polities.  The net result is the same: the "conventional wisdom" describes 
the net effect of a meson gun beam relatively accurately, but misrepresents 
the underlying physics.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 09:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Andy Akins Still Around?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C365E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Try andy@leonidae.org.  I was in touch with him in March at that address.
Jesse
 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Smart [mailto:jurrubin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 4:48 AM
To: TML List
Subject: [TML] Andy Akins Still Around?


Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Akins?

I'm trying to contact him re: his T4 ship design spreadsheet
but the andyakins@earthlink.net address from his website
keeps bouncing email.

David Smart
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 09:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <20020418190346.B22643@4dv.net>
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
 <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net>

>Does AOL offer SMTP and (POP3 or IMAP) to its subscribers?  If so, you
>can use any mail client you wish.  I understand that Mozilla's is very
>good, for those who like GUI clients.

Not last I heard.  There was an alpha test of that using employees only a 
couple or three years ago and it wandered into a swamp and never came 
out.  Which is just as well, from AOL's point of view, since it was _only_ 
being made compliant with Micro$oft Outlook and was just another way for 
them to hand the reins of software control over to Micro$oft.  (The 
explanation for this thinking is that most of the good leadership at AOL 
have long since retired after they got rich on stock options.)

Leonard Erickson already pointed to the best answer I am aware of for 
Loren's original question.  That Web site gives both the official and the 
"unofficial" answer but they are both the same thing.  The unofficial 
answer reads to me like it was posted by an AOL tech support rep on his own 
page so that he could point customers to it instead of trying to explain it 
over the phone.

I still maintain an AOL account and my wife exclusively uses AOL when not 
at work, but neither of us have upgraded to version 7.0.  (I used to QA the 
AOL client software and have what I consider good reasons for avoiding 
upgrading.  She just hasn't got around to it yet.)  I will go ahead and 
install 7.0 and fiddle around with it once I get my own computer's 
motherboard and CPU replaced.  I'd rather not install anything new on my 
wife's puter.

With luck, I will find something more useful than that ridiculous 
workaround that is the official method.  I will post results here.

It's no wonder I got a world-class set of ulcers when I was working 
there.  :::shaking head sadly:::

--Laning
"I coulda been _somebody_.  I coulda been a _contender_." -Laning speaking 
about AOL's potential to be much better than what it's turned into.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226E9@USCHM203>

>Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always had trouble with 
>the idea of a line of seperately-designed launchers being required to fire 
>"sand", so I decided to just do away with them IMTU; allowing the typical 
>missile launcher to fire several different types of munitions; with "sand" 
>being used in its usual role as a screen to counter incoming missiles or 
>energy beam fire, as well as it acting as a fairly effective antipersonnel 
>weapon (Striker, bk2).
> -Ken Murphy-

Makes sense to me. IMTU, most sandcasters on smaller ships aren't even
mounted in turrets. They are placed on or in the hull  in various locations
for full coverage, and work similar to the smoke launchers on the turrets of
tanks or chaff launchers on ships and aircraft. There is no need to aim
them, or have any fire-control system other than a manual or automated
activation system.


Brian L. Hurrel
ICS Analyst
EDS
(973) 682-5578


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [Website Review] Elv's Traveller Pages
References: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris> <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net> <02041910580708.03729@avlendris> <5.1.0.14.2.20020419111058.040af780@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <003801c1e7bf$66b51dc0$6e00a8c0@imogen>

The Website Review
------------------

A little later than expected this time, but here is ...

    Elv's Traveller Pages (John G Wood)
    http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller

Most of this site has red text on a black background (a homage to
the LBB covers).  Although this colour scheme can get  irritating
to read it is image-lite  ...  so  pages  are  fast  loading.  In
keeping with the LBB style there are links from  the  front  page
to:

- Page 0. An Introduction To My Traveller Universe
- Page 1. Characters and Combat
- Page 2. Starships
- Page 3. Worlds and Adventures
- Supp. Forms and Charts

The "Introduction" page states  that  it  is  for  material  that
doesn't fit elsewhere.  So far there  are  only  2  pieces,  both
about  psionics.   First  is  a  "right  of  reply"  letter   ...
complaining at the pro-psionic bias  of  a  recently  transmitted
program.  Second is a psionic institute checklist:  based  on  T4
(local world attitute, presence of a psionic institute, how  many
students, campuses, etc).

The "Characters and Combat" page is empty.

The "Starships" page contains GT translations of some Hiver ships
from Alien Module 7 (Explorer, Trader, Embassy Ship, and Research
Cruiser).  There's also a link to a 400dton GTL10 Lighter, and to
a landgrab page (Prilissa/Trin's Veil).

The "Worlds and Adventures" has links to write-ups of  Ochre  and
Cymbeline (both in the Solomani Rim), a link to a formal landgrab
of Prilissa (Spinward Marches), and links to two sector write-ups
(Windhorn  and  Usingou).  The  Ochre  and  Cymbeline   write-ups
include both text and stats, and could qualify as landgrabs.  The
Prilissa write-up *is* a landgrab (albeit as yet unfinished)  ...
there is a large amount of text  and  stats,  and  some  graphics
(world map and system chart).  The sector write-ups are  "initial
development" and has  data  in  Galactic  SEC  and  Galactic  SAR
formats, a list of subsector names, and a micro-sized sector map.

The "Forms and Charts" page has a CC2 file of "IS Form 21" (world
grid), and Gal2CC (a utility that converts sector  and  subsector
maps from Galactic to CC2).  There are also 3 Word documents  for
use with T4 (PE Forms, Shipcards, and a system worksheet) bundled
into a 26K zip.

In summary: T4, GT, and  generic  resources,  wrapped  up  in  CT
style.  The sector write-ups try to be true to the DGP  dot  maps
of those sectors (good!).  And there is  generally  good  support
for Galactic.  This site also reports that it was last updated on
15-Mar-2002 (good, an active site).

Improvements:  The layout implies that  more  content  is  coming
soon ... as it stands at the moment the level  of  content  would
support folding in the main section pages into  the  front  page.
More content is always good.  With the prominance of Galactic  in
this site I would have expected a link to Jim  Vassilakos's  site
(where Galactic can be found).  I look forward to the  completion
of the landgrab  and  more  info  on  the  Windhorn  and  Usingou
sectors.



Regards PLST



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Dan's used HG2 space craft lot #3
Message-ID: <3CC0463F.35BDBF90@mail.cswnet.com>

Buy now, pay later! We have the best used ships this side of Canopus!

Destiny Star class luxury liner
These ships are usually only seen in high pop core sector worlds.
Occasionally, 1 or 2 find their way to the frontier, usually under
charter by the Imperial Navy. On very rare occasions, the ships are
chartered to assist in colonizing a planet.

Destiny Star class luxury liner
ship names include Magic Destiny, Andromeda Princess, Grandeur of the
Stars, Sovereign of the stars, the Queen Hera, etc.
RQ-Y3313G5-093307-90000-0  Mcr798505.54 standard 1.5million dt
            Y   Y Y      TL=13 Crew=13235 Security Troops=1500
            Z   Z Z      Y=250  Z=500
Jump Fuel=450,000dt Plant Fuel=45,000dt EP=45000 Agility=1
Additional fuel=5000dt Fuel scoops and purification plant aboard
Auxiliary Bridge=1 Model7Fib=10 Code3 meson screens=1
Code3 nuclear dampers=10  10dt Sandcaster batteries=500
100dt repulsor bays=500  10dt Laser batteries=500
One 3250dt large craft bay [for visiting spacecraft]
One 51400dt small craft bay, carries:
2000 TL13 20dt QB lifeboats and 100 TL13 95dt RY Shuttlecraft
Crew=13235 [officers=2590 Ratings=10645] Security Troops=1500
Standard Cargo=100,000dt Passenger Cargo=50,000dt
Ships Stores=26,280dt Passengers=50,000 [1 each per 4dt stateroom]
Non-standard items from GT Starports:
10,000dt park habitat modules=10 10,000dt plaza habitat modules=12

Could qualify using Bk6 stats if you fudge the tech level:
Destiny Star DS00468-D NI Va 600Na 

TL13 RY Shuttlecraft
RY-02033A1-030000-20000-0 Mcr37.775 standard  95dt
            2     1           TL=13 Crew=5
            2     1
Fuel=5.7 EP=2.85 Agility=1 
Bridge with 3 additional crew couches [5 total]
Cargo=25 Passenger couches=55
Crew=1pilot, 1gunner, 1medic/steward, 2 stewards.

TL13 QB Lifeboat
QB-0202211-000000-00000-0 Mcr8.8 standard 20dt
no weapons                          TL=13 Crew=1
Fuel=1 EP=.4 Agility=2 Emergency low berths=8 Cargo=4


Assiniboia class gunned cruiser
The pride of the Regina Colonial Navy
CG-K4117D3-050000-60C07-0 Mcr10726.44 10000dt
            5     2 1 3   TL=10 Crew=121
            5     2 1 3   Marines=40
Fuel=1700dt EP=700 Agility=1 Fuel scoops and Purification plant aboard.
50dt missle bays=3  2dt Sandcaster batteries=5
5dt laser batteries=2  4500dt typeC particle accelerator
Carries two 40dt pinnaces with 2 beam lasers, 1 sandcaster, plus
20 emergency low berths Mcr24.25  Pinnaces are listed in Supplement 7,
page 46. They are TL9.
Crew=121[25 officers and 96 ratings] Marines=40[2 officers, 38 troops]
1 VIP passenger possible  Cargo=543dt
A related version, the Bourbon class gunned cruiser, uses a needle
configured hull instead of a box, costs Mcr11326.244


The reconfigured series: D609 Aconit of the French Navy

This is one of those adapted wet navy designs, using Ken Picks'
"Miscellaneous Note: Adapting "Wet-navy" Ships" from "Beyond Book 2:
Expanding the Basic Classic Traveller Starship Design System", available
at the Freelance Traveller website. I kept strictly to HG2 for the
design, so I fudged a little bit on the AAA guns.

D609 Aconit
DD-81146D2-040000-42002-0  Mcr745.366  830dt
            1     11  3    TL10  Crew=26
            1     11  3     Marines=8
Fuel=381.3 Ep=49.3 Agility=4 Cargo=16.9
Crew=1pilot, 1navigator, 8 engineers, 8 gunners, 1 comm specialist,
1 computer specialist, 1 medic, 1 admin orderly. Marines=8


Plop Historical designs: The Chameleon

The Chameleon
Originally from the Star Trek animated series episode "More Trouble with
Tribbles," The Chameleon is Cyrano Jones' ship. This attempted
Travellerization uses details from FASA's Star Trek RPG, which had full
details including a small deckplan. Note: Some fudging went into this
one. Also, design uses "Deck Cargo: Using External Pods For Increasing
Cargo Capacity,"  by Ken Pick, available at Freelance Traveller.

The Chameleon
with 50 dt cargo module.
MS-1123331-000000-00000-0 Mcr94.462 150dt
no weapons                          TL=13 Crew=1
Fuel=34.5dt Ep=4.5 Agile=3 Fuel scoops only; no fuel plant
Model 3 computer. Air/raft=1 Storage=3dt
double stateroom=1 "a masters cabin with lounge"
Carries one special custom 50dt streamlined cargo module [module
cargo=40dt] Cargo module by itself costs Mcr11. 
Note that a normal customized 50dt streamlined cargo module costs
Mcr5.5.

The Chameleon
without 50dt cargo module
MS-1134431-000000-00000-0 Mcr83.462 100dt
no weapons                          TL=13 Crew=1
Fuel=34.5dt Ep=4.5 Agile=3 Fuel scoops only; no fuel plant
Model 3 computer. Air/raft=1 Storage=3dt
double stateroom=1 "a masters cabin with lounge"

Notes on the special custom 50dt streamlined cargo module.
Quoting from "Again, Troublesome Tribbles" by FASA, ?1983
Cyrano has installed "added controls, which allow the cargo module to be
jettisoned in space and exploded by remote control. The walls of the
cargo module are lined with reflective materials which will act on
sensors in a manner similar to radar "chaff", masking Cyrano's escape,
at increased speed, in an emergency."

For HG2 purposes, a declaration to jettison the cargo module must be
made in the launch phase. This has the following effects:
In the range determination phase, the player with Chameleon may open 
range by one level. If previously at short range, he may go to long
range. If at long range, he may opt to dissengage. For combat purposes,
treat the "chaff" as a single Code9 sandcaster battery, available for
one turn only. O^

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
How mesons are created: The stork brings em.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:49:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:49:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 12:08:07AM +1200
References: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost> <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com> <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020419104758.A24689@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 12:08:07AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> The modern system has its origins in Medieval Europe, with knights 
> evolving into the aristocratic officer class, etc.

I believe that various socialists tried the `elect officer from the
ratings, by the ratings' method.  It didn't work very well.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Try travelling from state to state in America without a driver's license
and proof of insurance, to be yielded up to the first uniformed
road-thug who demands it.                       --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CBF6B82.9FD041AE@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:

> > From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
> >
> > Heinlein is often invoked in the science fiction world as an example of
> > libertarian principles at work.  I don't know how many have read his story
> > 'Coventry', which was set inside a huge area cordoned off by the U.S. and
> > completely without laws.  Citizens of the U.S. who broke the law were
> > banished to Coventry to live among the other people who felt they didn't
> > need the law.  Contrary to the expectations of the rugged individualist who
> > starts the story about to enter Coventry, the people inside Coventry
> > evolved their own law, but one that was imposed by the biggest sharks in
> > the pool and not so kind and gentle as the law they had just left
> > behind.  This was Heinlein's story that most directly addressed the issue,
> > and with writer as judge of the conflict between different poliltical
> > systems, he clearly found in favor of the democratic one and against the
> > libertarian one.
> 
> Thank you for remembering this. I knew there was a quite well written
> refutation in his work but I had forgotten the name. 

That's NOT a refutation of libertarianism, it's a refutation of anarchy.
True anarchy doesn't exist; there will always be some sort of social
order, even if it's based in "the biggest bully wins".

Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.  

> As a fairly hard lefty (hey I am a member of the DSA.
> http://www.dsausa.org if you don't know them. Keep in mind that I keep
> that link  in my religion folder... ;') I had a difficult time
> understanding some of his works when I was a teen. The way "Coventry" is
> written makes it very clear that a democracy that passes things against
> his ideals is a better place to him than a tyrany that is exactly in
> line with his thought. It's also useful to understand that one can
> respect while disagreeing. 

Yes, but libertarianism is NOT tyranny or anarchy, and the society in
"Coventry" is NOT libertarian.  A libertarian social contract supports the
right to life (for persons who have been born), liberty, property,
privacy, and free association.

I would expect someone from a group as maligned as the DSA to be able to
understand the difference.

And it depends, doesn't it?  If a "democracy" decides to make just being
who you are illegal because their governing body is so constructed as to
think the right of the majority to decide what's legal should extend into
your bedroom, then you are in a tyranny, aren't you?  If a "democracy"
decides to attach more than half of your property suddenly due to a change
in the public opinion made manifest in law, then you are in a tyranny,
aren't you?

Kiri, lifelong RAH fan and mostly libertarian...

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019237432.7515.ajackson@ping>

Kiri Aradia Morgan writes:
> 
> That's NOT a refutation of libertarianism, it's a refutation of anarchy.

Well, a lot of the libertarians seem to be anarchists in disguise, though it's
true that they're not technically the same thing.
> 
> Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
> exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
> should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
> do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.

Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith.  Or the Libertarian
party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:10:22AM -0700
References: <3CBF6B82.9FD041AE@mailbag.com> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020419113915.A24789@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:10:22AM -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>
> A libertarian social contract supports the right to life (for
> persons who have been born), liberty, property, privacy, and free
> association.

I'd like to point out--solely to avoid misunderstanding--that there is
debate within libertarian circles regarding the personhood of those
yet unborn, and that this naturally colours perception of the rights
appertaining thereto.  Not going to mention my own thoughts, as they
have no business being here.

Otherwise I quite agree with Kiri's post.  Although I've not read the
story in question, it very much sounded not like an argument against
liberty but an argument against anarchy.  While some libertarians tend
towards minarchy, and some even towards anarchy, mainstream
libertarian thought recognises a) that government is evil b) that lack
of government is yet more evil.  Thus the question is not whether to
eliminate it (the answer to that is definitely not) but how to
constrain it so that it protects the liberty of its citizens from all
encroachment.

Anarchists care about encroachment by government; authoritarians care
about encroachment by individuals.  Libertarians care about both, and
seek to find the balance necessary to promote the most liberty for the
most individuals in the best way.

> And it depends, doesn't it?  If a "democracy" decides to make just being
> who you are illegal because their governing body is so constructed as to
> think the right of the majority to decide what's legal should extend into
> your bedroom, then you are in a tyranny, aren't you?  If a "democracy"
> decides to attach more than half of your property suddenly due to a change
> in the public opinion made manifest in law, then you are in a tyranny,
> aren't you?

That's why I've always found emphasis on democracy to be more than a
little foolish.  Certainly, it appears that democracy has the best
chance of ensuring liberty--but it is just as capable of ensuring
tyranny.  I don't care who rules or how, so long as I am free.  If a
king, an emperor or the Great Purple Poobah of Penglesh ensures my
liberties, I'll quite happily be a subject.

ObTrav: This naturally colours my view of the Imperium.  MTU is not
the one of the early LBB adventures with an Imperium out of Star Wars
and megacorps out of cyberpunk.  I latched onto statements such as the
Imperium ruling the space between stars and it having an interest in
free trade and developed a TU much rosier, I think, that many others'.
I'm afraid it doesn't overly resemble the OTU, as in mine un-feoffed
[is that a word?] worlds are much less common: almost every world is
in the posession of a noble.

But I'm an idealist:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert
that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by
themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.
                                                  --Thomas Jefferson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Akins)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Andy Akins Still Around?
In-Reply-To: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419174744.A20BC279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>

David Smart wrote:
>Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Akins?

I do :)

>I'm trying to contact him re: his T4 ship design spreadsheet
>but the andyakins@earthlink.net address from his website
>keeps bouncing email.

Yup, that address is gone. I bought my own domain (leonidae.org) and I'm 
operating from that now...

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>Try andy@leonidae.org.  I was in touch with him in March at that address.

You are correct sir!

For the record, if anyone is looking for my spreadsheets, they are now at 
www.leonidae.org/

I'm _slowly_ adding more stuff to that site, but its gonna take me a while.

	Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Akins)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>

Okay, I think this may be pretty complicated, and I wouldn't be surprised if 
the answer is "Can't be done" or "Too hard" or "Go pick up a $200 Orbital 
Dyanmics Textbook and figure it out..."

But...

...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of 
a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system from above, and the 
primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital parameters of the planet (orbital 
radius, eccentricity, orbital speed, reference point, etc) and the date.

I'd actually like to be able to do this for _the_ solar system, that is enter 
"Nov 16 1969" and be able to plot where the planets are on X,Y paper.

Now, I know that there are comercial astronomy programs (Red Shifft, etc) 
that can do this sort of thing...but I need to try and build this into a 
different program, so I gotta write the algorithm myself.

ARgh.

If anyone can lend me hand, or point me to a website, or tell me that I'm 
nuts, I'd appreciate it....

	Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:59:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:59:56 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1@aol.com>

--part1_74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>> Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
>> exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
>> should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
>> do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.
>
>Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith.  Or the Libertarian
>party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.

I've often found "minarchist" more useful than "libertarian." More
technically correct, and it hasn't been hijacked by anyone yet.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt;&gt; Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
<BR>&gt;&gt; exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
<BR>&gt;&gt; should not interfere in people's private lives: &nbsp;for instance, what they
<BR>&gt;&gt; do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt;Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith. &nbsp;Or the Libertarian
<BR>&gt;party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.
<BR>
<BR>I've often found "minarchist" more useful than "libertarian." More
<BR>technically correct, and it hasn't been hijacked by anyone yet.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C365F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Well, you ARE nuts, but I don't know if that's related to your current
project ;)
<ducking>

Jesse



<snip>
If anyone can lend me hand, or point me to a website, or tell me that I'm 
nuts, I'd appreciate it....

	Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:08:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:08:14 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <200204190855.BAA14300@ping.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20419.105906.7W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> True, nuclear dampers do imply a lot of bizarre manipulations of decay
> rates that it's very difficult to explain in a way that wouldn't prove
> instantly lethal to all life.  Considering that pions are the primary
> exchange particle of the strong force, nuclear dampers would be expected
> to influence them.
>
> Doesn't help much with the problem of 'mesons aren't notably penetrating
> particles'.  Of course, explaining how nuclear dampers don't change the
> laws of physics in ways that are instantly fatal to life is also a trick.

The only application of nuclear dampers I can think of where it would
*matter* that they were lethal is fixed screens around planetary
installations. 

Then again, they'd make far too good a "death ray" if they were. <sigh>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  Graphics Help
Message-ID: <20020419181048.28151.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

This is way off topic, but I was wondering if one of
the Graphic Guru's on the list would be willing to do
a little volunteer work for my son's baseball league. 
I'm beginning to work on their web site and I need to
get an emblem for them  I have some ideas, but I am
limited to MS Paint, and, well, that just don't cut
it. :)

Thanks,
Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20419.105906.7W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019240622.1051.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> The only application of nuclear dampers I can think of where it would
> *matter* that they were lethal is fixed screens around planetary
> installations. 
> 
> Then again, they'd make far too good a "death ray" if they were. <sigh>

Well, most obvious versions of nuclear dampers either have energy requirements
best measured in kilograms, or would tend to make matter explode and are well
suited to Death Star tricks.  Incidentally, even limiting ourselves to known
effects of nuclear dampers, they're well suited to producing nova-level flares
with a reasonable sized damper, focused to accelerate fusion, pointed at the
star.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
Message-ID: <20020419182536.82956.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

All the recent talk about jump drive and 100D limits
has gotten me thinking.  OK, the assumption first...

     The Jump Grid "erases" the effects of gravity/
     tidal force/whatever that would prevent a ship
     from being outside of its own 100D limit.

If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
have they discovered in regards to this test?

Might it be possible (if not practical) to exceed the
J-6 limit.  Immagine a J-6 small xboat jumping from
within the hull of a J-6 carrier.  Can we reach J-12,
J-36, or (gasp!) J-46,656 (6^6)?  This could be an
easy launch point for an "unusual" adventures.  As in
the following:


The Patron hires the players as a retrieval squad. 
Only later do they find out where the retrieval is. 
The have 3 J-6 ships.  The HUGE, the Medium, and the
small.  The Medium is designed to Jump twice and then
Slag the J-Drive.  It doesn't have anything else of
its own, simply a hull, fuel, and a J-6 drive.  The
Huge and Medium engage together with the Small in the
hull of the Medium (and the PC's in the Small).  The
Medium Jumps 46,656 parsecs into an unknown territory.
 The PC's have to retrieve the scientist who tested
the first ship and return by engaging the Medium and
Small J-6's at the same time to get home.

I know it isn't official canon (cannon?) or is it? 
Have all the research experiments from all the
research stations in the Imperium been posted to the
citizens?  Hmmm.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:33:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:33:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020419182536.82956.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019241046.5627.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> 
> If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
> HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
> during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
> entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
> stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
> have they discovered in regards to this test?

My suspicion would be 'both ships disappear'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>; from andy@leonidae.org on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:53:42PM -0500
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419130413.B24789@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:53:42PM -0500, Andy Akins wrote:
> 
> ...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of 
> a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system from above, and the 
> primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital parameters of the planet (orbital 
> radius, eccentricity, orbital speed, reference point, etc) and the date.

Well, for the simplest case assume that the planet is in a perfect
circular orbit around its star and that it started its orbit directly
`north' of that star.  Planet.period is the time it take to complete 1
rotation around the star.

orbit_degree(planet, time) = 360*time/planet.period mod 360

Then from orbit_degree it's fairly simple to determine where along the
circle the planet is.  For a very simple first approximation of a
planetary orbit, this is sufficient--for a slightly less simple an a
random deviation based on eccentricity.


It gets rather more complicated from there.

A real orbit is an ellipse, with the star being rotated around at one
of the focii (not really true, but close enough).

<http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html> should provide something
of a start.  I've gotten as far as determining the definitions of
major and minor axes in terms of eccentricity.  If one assumes that
the `average seperation' used in GT is the average of min and max
seperations, not the average distance over time, then the major axis
2a is simpy min_sep + max_sep, and the minor axis 2b =
2a*sqrt(1-ecc^2).

I don't recall which definition of average seperation GT uses.  I've a
nasty feeling that sometimes it's simply the average of min and max,
and sometimes it's an average over time.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty
clearly to protect political discourse.  But liberals reject the notion
that free speech is therefore limited to political topics, even broadly
defined.  True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself.
But why leap to the conclusion that a broadly worded constitutional
freedom (`the right of the people to keep and bear arms') is narrowly
limited by its stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away?
My New Republic colleague Mickey Kaus says that if liberals interpreted
the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest of the Bill of
Rights, there would be law professors arguing that gun ownership is
mandatory.       --Michael Kinsley Washington Post, January 8, 1990

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:10:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:10:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419145637.041a0f88@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:53 PM 4/19/2002, Andy Akins wrote:
>Okay, I think this may be pretty complicated [...] I would _really_ like a 
>formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of a planet.


I have a book (that's about 20 years old now) called _Practical Astronomy 
with Your Calculator_ that may be of use to you.  Particularly if you're 
going for gaming-accuracy approximations (rather than pointing a real 
telescope or navigating an actual spacecraft).  It appears to have been 
revised in 1990, and looks like it's still in print.  Go to Amazon.com, and 
punch in the title; it should come right up.

It's mainly aimed at the backyard astronomer, but I think there is enough 
information given to translate between the various coordinate systems, and 
provide the X,Y coordinates that you're asking for.  Also browsing through 
the astronomy section on Amazon, I saw _Fundamentals of Astrodynamics_, 
which is inexpensive and appears to be useful.

Good luck,


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

.
> 
> Pilots are made into officers for reasons of
> tradition and there's no 
> real reason for them to be, no matter what they
> might say on this.
> 
Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
or no reason for them to be grunts first?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>; from andy@leonidae.org on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:53:42PM -0500
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>

Here's some more info from the page I mentioned
<http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html>.  Assuming, once again,
that the standard orbital radius is the simple of min and max radii,
we have:

(1) min_sep + max_sep = 2a (the major axis; distance from one end of the
			   orbit to another)

(2) min_sep(planet) = planet.radius*(1-planet.ecc)

(3) max_sep(planet) = planet.radius*(1+planet.ecc)

and thus:

(4) major(planet) = 2*planet.radius

(5) semimajor(planet) = planet.radius

We also have a function returning current degree from `north':

(6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)

Given orbital_deg(), we can find distance from a focus by:

(7) radius(planet,time) = (semimajor(planet)*(1-planet.ecc^2)) /
    (1+planet.ecc*cos(orbital_deg(planet, time)))

And for an ellipse, where theta = orbital_deg(planet,time), r =
radius(planet, time) and c = semimajor(planet)*planet.ecc:

(8) x = c + r cos theta
(9) y = r sin theta

Which in our case reduces to:

(8a) x(planet, time) = semimajor(planet)*planet.ecc +
		       semimajor(planet)*(1-planet.ecc^2)

(9a) y(planet, time) = radius(planet, time) * orbital_deg(planet, time)

None of this has been tested outed, and I could very well be
wrong--I'm no physicist, and while I was a Math/CS major the emphasis
was on CS.  And I'm rusty.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A properly balanced sword is the most versatile weapon for close
quarters ever devised: a sword never jams, never has to be reloaded;
it is always ready.                               --Robert Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>

Paul Walker writes:
> 
> If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
> HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
> during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
> entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
> stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
> have they discovered in regards to this test?

I wouldn't recommend engaging a jump drive while sitting in the hold of a
ship already in jump-space. As far as the results of such an event, I would
assume a 99.9% chance of a catastrophic catastrophy.
Perhaps there'd be a One in a Trillion chance that the ship would end up
300,000 LY away in the Andromeda Galaxy (or at the exit 13A Toll Plaza on
the NJ Turnpike for that matter).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:41:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:41:30 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8E5C044.577B2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/19/02 12:32 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> or no reason for them to be grunts first?
> 

The Air Force doesn't have 'grunts'.  Didn't you know that?  They have
technicians (Excepting Para Rescue and a few other oddballs who'd probably
be happier in the Army or Marines. :)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:44:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:44:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1019245236.0.55880100@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Mr. Whipsnade posted:
>
<snip>
> As you all well know, I'm not the sharpest tool
> in the shed
<snip>

EXCUSE ME? After your "Colossus" posts detailing your alternate ending to the MT Rebellion, I'll be happy to debate your statement with you or anyone else.

That was a masterful piece of work, sir, and one that has become a permanent part of my MT campaigns. I haven't seen much of your other work but quality, not quantity, is the mark of excellence (as Imperium Games found out the hard way).

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020419113915.A24789@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191235301.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:10:22AM -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> >
> > A libertarian social contract supports the right to life (for
> > persons who have been born), liberty, property, privacy, and free
> > association.
> 
> I'd like to point out--solely to avoid misunderstanding--that there is
> debate within libertarian circles regarding the personhood of those
> yet unborn, and that this naturally colours perception of the rights
> appertaining thereto.  Not going to mention my own thoughts, as they
> have no business being here.

There is always going to be debate, but I'm talking about what nearly all
libertarians can agree on, which is that people who have been born have
the right to continue living, unless of course they are killed by someone 
who is defending themselves against their attack.
 
> Otherwise I quite agree with Kiri's post.  Although I've not read the
> story in question, it very much sounded not like an argument against
> liberty but an argument against anarchy. 

Exactly so.  But then, we usually agree about political matters, and we
both regard matters of religion as private.  :)

> While some libertarians tend towards minarchy, and some even towards
> anarchy, mainstream libertarian thought recognises a) that government
> is evil b) that lack of government is yet more evil.  Thus the
> question is not whether to eliminate it (the answer to that is
> definitely not) but how to constrain it so that it protects the
> liberty of its citizens from all encroachment.

Exactly.
 
> Anarchists care about encroachment by government; authoritarians care
> about encroachment by individuals.  Libertarians care about both, and
> seek to find the balance necessary to promote the most liberty for the
> most individuals in the best way.

That is the best explanation I've heard yet.  Might steal it for the quote
file if you don't mind.

> > And it depends, doesn't it?  If a "democracy" decides to make just being
> > who you are illegal because their governing body is so constructed as to
> > think the right of the majority to decide what's legal should extend into
> > your bedroom, then you are in a tyranny, aren't you?  If a "democracy"
> > decides to attach more than half of your property suddenly due to a change
> > in the public opinion made manifest in law, then you are in a tyranny,
> > aren't you?
> 
> That's why I've always found emphasis on democracy to be more than a
> little foolish.  Certainly, it appears that democracy has the best
> chance of ensuring liberty--but it is just as capable of ensuring
> tyranny.  I don't care who rules or how, so long as I am free.  If a
> king, an emperor or the Great Purple Poobah of Penglesh ensures my
> liberties, I'll quite happily be a subject.

I can certainly understand that, but whatever the government is, it should
have checks and balances.  The problem with monarchy is that it's usually
hereditary and there's no guarantee that a monarch who ensures our liberty
will be succeeded by another one just like him/her.

> ObTrav: This naturally colours my view of the Imperium.  MTU is not
> the one of the early LBB adventures with an Imperium out of Star Wars
> and megacorps out of cyberpunk.  I latched onto statements such as the
> Imperium ruling the space between stars and it having an interest in
> free trade and developed a TU much rosier, I think, that many others'.
> I'm afraid it doesn't overly resemble the OTU, as in mine un-feoffed
> [is that a word?] worlds are much less common: almost every world is
> in the posession of a noble.
> 
> But I'm an idealist:-)

Indeed.  I'm more of a cold, hard realist; my libertarianism springs from
the knowledge that if you give 200 million people a voice in your private
life, or what you can own, or what you can do with what you own, they'll
often take it... and feel justified in so doing, if you allow yourself to 
become dependent upon their largesse, enforced or not.... :)

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:51:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:51:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019245364.3010.ajackson@ping>

Robert A. Uhl writes:
> Here's some more info from the page I mentioned
> <http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html>.  Assuming, once again,
> that the standard orbital radius is the simple of min and max radii,

It's usually the semi-major axis, which is, yes, the average of min and max.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:56:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:56:13 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

laning wrote:
> 
>> Does AOL offer SMTP and (POP3 or IMAP) to its subscribers?  If so, you
>> can use any mail client you wish.  I understand that Mozilla's is very
>> good, for those who like GUI clients.
> 
> 
> Not last I heard.  There was an alpha test of that using employees only 
> a couple or three years ago and it wandered into a swamp and never came 
> out.  

Au contraire, mon frere....I am happily using Mozilla 0.9.9 right now, 
with the magic 1.0 release coming in about a month. It will be a rather 
well-behaved 1.0 release as well.

http://www.mozilla.org

Mozilla has been my main browser/mail application for over a year now, 
and I am quite pleased with it.

You might have seen it as Netscape 6.2...(same program with a Netscape 
theme) Netscape 6.0 was the MOzilla 0.7 or 0.8 release, was slow and had 
many bugs, but the current version is quite nice, and a good performer, imo.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:58:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:58:44 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019237432.7515.ajackson@ping>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419154608.00b8a5f0@urbin.net>

At 10:30 AM 4/19/02 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Kiri Aradia Morgan writes:
> > That's NOT a refutation of libertarianism, it's a refutation of anarchy.
>Well, a lot of the libertarians seem to be anarchists in disguise, though it's
>true that they're not technically the same thing.

Well, perhaps when viewed from a leftist lens.
Libertarians do not believe in a "Nanny State" that is the dream/goal of 
many dempublicans.
The Libertarianism is not anarchy. It is, as Kiri pointed out, a clearly 
defined social contract between the citizens of the state and the 
government they selected to run it.

> > Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
> > exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
> > should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
> > do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.
>Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith.  Or the Libertarian
>party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.

Hmm...I just stopped by <http://www.lp.org/> and read some position papers.
I agree with Kiri.  She just happened to pick and example of a single 
position that the ACLU happens to agree with the LP platform.

In fact, the LP web site lists the ACLU (along with a link) as an 
organization that also supports privacy rights.
I wonder if you can find a link to the Libertarian Party site anywhere on 
the ACLU site...


ObTrav: Nope...not going there...I vote this thread goes to the tml-chat list.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:02:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:02:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <DAV14zx4iXK3M38gh6y00018aa9@hotmail.com>

------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C1E7BA.B573E810
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Don't forge the influence of Rand on Libertarianism.
And of course, don't forget that the current Libertarian party leadership=
 fully believes in guilt by association. Consider the habits of Rand and =
the later writings of Heinlein and then consider what they say about Libe=
rtarians.

Of course, I like Norman Spinrad and his take on electronic democracy. :-=
P


Sam

------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C1E7BA.B573E810
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Don't forge th=
e influence of Rand on Libertarianism.</DIV> <DIV>And of course, don't fo=
rget that the current Libertarian party leadership fully believes in guil=
t by association. Consider the habits of Rand and the later writings of H=
einlein and then consider what they say about Libertarians.</DIV> <DIV>&n=
bsp;</DIV> <DIV>Of course, I like Norman Spinrad and his take on electron=
ic democracy. :-P</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Sam</DIV=
></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C1E7BA.B573E810--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:10:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:10:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419154608.00b8a5f0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019246981.7419.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:

> In fact, the LP web site lists the ACLU (along with a link) as an 
> organization that also supports privacy rights.
> I wonder if you can find a link to the Libertarian Party site anywhere on 
> the ACLU site...

Well, I can't find _any_ links to other organizations on the ACLU site, so no. 
You can find some court cases where the ACLU and the libertarian party were
co-defendants, however.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191235301.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:41:40PM -0700
References: <20020419113915.A24789@4dv.net> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191235301.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020419141527.A25183@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:41:40PM -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> There is always going to be debate, but I'm talking about what nearly all
> libertarians can agree on, which is that people who have been born have
> the right to continue living, unless of course they are killed by someone 
> who is defending themselves against their attack.

I'd phrase it as `libertarians believe that people have the right to
go on living, unless they do something to negate that right.'  By
leaving unsaid what a person is, and what can be done to negate that
right, we've a definition that just about anyone can, I think agree
to.  And then argue to their heart's content about the undefined
terms.  On another list...

> > Anarchists care about encroachment by government; authoritarians care
> > about encroachment by individuals.  Libertarians care about both, and
> > seek to find the balance necessary to promote the most liberty for the
> > most individuals in the best way.
> 
> That is the best explanation I've heard yet.  Might steal it for the quote
> file if you don't mind.

I don't believe in restricting non-deceptive quoting:-)

> I can certainly understand that, but whatever the government is, it should
> have checks and balances.  The problem with monarchy is that it's usually
> hereditary and there's no guarantee that a monarch who ensures our liberty
> will be succeeded by another one just like him/her.

Yep--that's why I said that democracy seems to be the best.  I wonder,
though, how a combined system would work.  A king, an aristocratic
house, a common house a democratic plebiscites.  Balance them all
against one another and with any luck once they'd gotten around to:
forbidding murder, rape, theft and fraud; establishing property and
privacy law; and funding the military, they'd just settle down into
fruitless doing nothing.

> Indeed.  I'm more of a cold, hard realist; my libertarianism springs from
> the knowledge that if you give 200 million people a voice in your private
> life, or what you can own, or what you can do with what you own, they'll
> often take it... and feel justified in so doing, if you allow yourself to 
> become dependent upon their largesse, enforced or not.... :)

That's why I like the idea of a government of men, not laws.  It's
dashed difficult to kill a law, but very easy to kill a man.  Being a
man, he knows this, and acts circumspectly.

See, there's one Emperor.  And a septillion sophonts out there.  He'd
better be doing his best not to alienate too many of them at any one
time.

This would, of course, lead to priority being given to worlds near
Capital, as they are the ones for which it is simplest to retaliate.
But to balance that fact IMTU there's a fairly active Moot, which
being made of equal representatives from across the Imperium tends to
level that voice out (much as in the US Colo. has nearly the same
voice in federal affairs that Va. has).  There's a balance between the
Emperor and the Moot such that for both the man and the entity the
best path is the way of least action.

Which in a government is a desirable thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To murder a man is much odious, to kill a woman is in manner unnatural,
but to slay and destroy innocent babes and young infants, the whole
world abhorreth, and their blood from the earth crieth for vengeance to
almighty God.                                    --Edward Hall, c. 1480

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV14zx4iXK3M38gh6y00018aa9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E5C9B9.577DC%listmom@travellercentral.com>

on 4/19/02 12:56 PM, Samuel Weiss at samwise1@msn.com wrote:
  
>Sam

Sam,

Please don't use styled text on the list.

Thanks

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019246981.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8E5CAD9.577E6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/19/02 1:09 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> 
> Well, I can't find _any_ links to other organizations on the ACLU site, so no.
> You can find some court cases where the ACLU and the libertarian party were
> co-defendants, however.

That doesn't say much. I seem to recall the ACLU and NRA being co-plaintiffs
recently.  

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020419202918.31056.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
> Paul Walker writes:
> > 
> > If this is the case, what would happen if there
> were a
> > HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump
> (or
> > during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
> > entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
> > stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
> > have they discovered in regards to this test?
> 
> I wouldn't recommend engaging a jump drive while
> sitting in the hold of a
> ship already in jump-space. As far as the results of
> such an event, I would
> assume a 99.9% chance of a catastrophic catastrophy.
> Perhaps there'd be a One in a Trillion chance that
> the ship would end up
> 300,000 LY away in the Andromeda Galaxy (or at the
> exit 13A Toll Plaza on
> the NJ Turnpike for that matter).

But why?  This is the second reply I got that said it
would be a bad thing and would probably destroy all
ships involved.  Is there any support for this?  I'm
not opposed to non OTU, but my original question was
whether there was anything in the official rules
and/or history to support or prevent such occurances?

Thanks,
Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Sorry to take up space with this.

Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in stand=
ard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I have wrong=
?


Sam

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff" STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"=
><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Sorry to take up space with this.</DIV> <DIV>&nbs=
p;</DIV> <DIV>Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was=
 sent in standard format. I use arial as my font.<FONT color=3D#000000>&n=
bsp;What other setting&nbsp;might I have wrong?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;<=
/DIV> <DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] the handwaving is getting closer to real life
Message-ID: <200204192111.EOL06094@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Yet another variant on "quantum" something.

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2861822,
00.html
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:25:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:25:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191423490.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Samuel Weiss wrote:

> 
> Sorry to take up space with this.
> 
> Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in
> standard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I
> have wrong?

The fact that you HAVE a "font" setting means that you are using styled
text-- your mail client may be calling it "rich text" or HTML instead,
though.

Please turn it off.

Thanks,
Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419172919.00b89740@urbin.net>

Plain ASCII would be best.

At 04:37 PM 4/19/02 -0400, Samuel Weiss wrote:
>
>Sorry to take up space with this.
>
>Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in 
>standard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I have wrong?
>
>
>Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019240622.1051.ajackson@ping>
References: <20419.105906.7W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <ML-2.3.1019240622.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020420073353.A4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> they're well suited to producing nova-level flares with a reasonable
> sized damper, focused to accelerate fusion, pointed at the star.

I've always thought of them as affecting only isotopes that were
already unstable, essentially just modifying the probability that they
decay right there and then.  They can accelerate decay of radiocative
materials, or prevent it.  They can suppress a fission chain reaction
by preventing the decay of nuclei that have one too many neutrons, or
accelerate it by increasing the rate at which the fuel nuclei decay
initially.

IMTU, their effect on pure fusion is almost negligible.  If you could
project the field into the core of a star, you might be able to stop
some of the side-reactions based on decay of unstable isotopes, but
this would not have an immediate effect.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:39:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:39:13 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <B8E5CAD9.577E6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191434420.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/19/02 1:09 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Well, I can't find _any_ links to other organizations on the ACLU site, so no.
> > You can find some court cases where the ACLU and the libertarian party were
> > co-defendants, however.
> 
> That doesn't say much. I seem to recall the ACLU and NRA being co-plaintiffs
> recently.  

Well, that really ought to happen more often, given the fact that the ACLU
is supposed to be engaged in protecting the Bill of Rights.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:42:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:42:09 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net> <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020420074153.B4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Au contraire, mon frere....I am happily using Mozilla 0.9.9 right now, 
> with the magic 1.0 release coming in about a month. It will be a rather 
> well-behaved 1.0 release as well.

I think laning was referring to POP & IMAP test having wandered into a
swamp, not to Mozilla.  (Did mozilla even have functional mail a year
or three ago?)


> You might have seen it as Netscape 6.2...(same program with a
> Netscape theme) Netscape 6.0 was the MOzilla 0.7 or 0.8 release, was
> slow and had many bugs, but the current version is quite nice, and a
> good performer, imo.

Yes, I use Mozilla 0.9.9 as my everyday web browser.  I use mutt as my
email client.  Not because Mozilla's is bad, just because Mutt is
*good* and I often like to use it from work over a 56k connection :)
(In the words of the author -- "All mail clients suck.  This one just
sucks less.")


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:49:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:49:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020419202918.31056.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419164150.01eb9740@mail.qrc.com>

At 04:29 PM 4/19/2002, Paul Walker wrote:
>[Is] there was anything in the official rules and/or history to support or 
>prevent such occurances?

The specific situation - attempting to activate a jump drive while already 
in jump space - is (to the best of my knowledge) undefined in all versions 
of the Traveller rules.  Thus, in your Traveller universe you can have any 
sort of outcome you would like.  However, I believe Marc Miller is on 
record as saying on numerous occasions that any sort of controlled jump 
longer than 6 parsecs is flatly impossible in Traveller.

In every other case that is covered by the rules, attempting to do 
something unusual with a jump drive causes one of three results: either 
nothing happens, the ship misjumps, or is catastrophically destroyed.  Any 
of these would be appropriate, and destruction sounds most likely to me as 
well.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <20020420074153.B4777@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 07:41:53AM +1000
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net> <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020420074153.B4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020419155915.A25440@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 07:41:53AM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Yes, I use Mozilla 0.9.9 as my everyday web browser.  I use mutt as
> my email client.

Ditto on both counts here.  Mozilla is simply the best browser out
there (tabbed browsing has changed my web browsing habits for good).
Mutt is an excellent little MUA.

I have been considering using gnus or RMAIL to read mail, though.
Both are within emacs, and with a little bit of work on a few things
I'd never need to leave the great Editor-that-Is.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give
orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem,
pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently,
die gallantly.  Specialization is for insects.
                            --Robert Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420073353.A4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019253756.6212.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> I've always thought of them as affecting only isotopes that were
> already unstable, essentially just modifying the probability that they
> decay right there and then.

So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier around a
nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many nuclei, since the range
of the strong force is important), or you're altering the probability of
quantum tunneling (which I suspect would have dire effects on chemistry).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEHMDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi

You need to solve Kepler's Equations to get the "mean anomaly" and from that
determine the orbital coordinates.

It's not simple, the equation is something like E = msinE, so the answer is
also part of the equation, and the only real method of solution is to
iteration.

To get that far, you need to have five, maybe six values to define an
orbital path - argument of perihelion, longitude of ascending node,
inclination to ecliptic plane, semimajor axis, orbital eccentricity - and
the point in time (the "epoch") for which all of these apply. You will need
to be aware of time here, as astronomers use standard timescales to
eliminate issues associated with timezones etc, and also the difference
between the solar day and the sidereal (i.e. stellar day) of 3mins 56secs.

On top of that, orbits are perturbed by other planets and objects, and you
need to account for atmospheric effects (refraction) and lightspeed lag
(aberration) if you intend to draw a night sky view. If you want to do it
over a very long period, then you need to account for precession of orbital
nodes/elements as well.

However, I've written a Java Orrery for my RuneQuest campaign world that
accounts for all of the above, and can predict eclipses, various planetary
alignments, zodiacal houses and a few bits besides. With a bit of work it
could handle any solar system you like to imagine.

Mail me off list and I'll see what I can do.

Regards

Andy Brick

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 17/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
> .
> > 
> > Pilots are made into officers for reasons of
> > tradition and there's no 
> > real reason for them to be, no matter what they
> > might say on this.
> > 
> Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> or no reason for them to be grunts first?
> 
  >>
  Pilots are officers because the military does not
want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
why........

     MACessna
  >>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:43:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:43:27 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
 <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8e64cae2f75@[143.232.119.186]>

At 6:45 PM +1000 4/19/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>Brian Caball wrote:
>>  Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel"
>>  problems: Nuclear Damping Technology.
>
>The only problem is, why doesn't a meson gun then function
>automatically as a perfect meson screen?  If you can prevent your
>mesons decaying over distances of up to millions of kilometres, why
>can't you ensure that the other guy's mesons don't decay within a
>range of twenty metres?

This is close to the explination I've always used.  Meson guns 
contrive to produce mesons with a known lifetime though the use of 
technology related to what they use for nuclear dampers.

Why doesn't that make them also meson screens?  One answers is the 
limitations in word "related".  It can be related without having the 
same configuration you need for screen.  The second is that if the 
effect acts inside the weapon, then it would only act as a screen for 
mesons shot into the weapon.

If you want a full fledged screen, you have to set it up that way....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 17:43:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 19 16:43:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Message from John G. Wood -- [OT] New Gamer :)
Message-ID: <74.1b98a336.29f20575@aol.com>

Here's a message John has asked me to forward to the TML:


 >Folks,
 >
 >Some of you may remember me - I was a member of the list up until about
 >a  year ago, although never a prolific poster. Since many of you have 
 >expressed personal interest in the past, I've asked Michael to post
 >this  for me.
 >
 >Our son Isaac was born in the early hours of Friday 12th April,
 >weighing  in at 8lb 4oz (3.75kg) - everything went well, mother and
 >baby were home  by 7:30 *AM*, and we're settling into a new routine of
 >sorts. His big  sister May (two years old on the 17th) is fascinated by
 >him. I've put some  pictures up on the website at
 >http://www.elvwood.org/Family/BabyIsaac.html 
 >- larger versions are linked from the thumbnails.
 >
 >For those who care, my Traveller gaming has actually increased slightly
 > since I left the list. I got to meet (and play GURPS Traveller with) a
 >TML  member at GenCon UK [waves to Megan], then played two games of
 >classic at  Dragonmeet - where I also got to sign copies of _101
 >Corporations_, which  was a laugh.
 >
 >Take care all,
 >
 >John <john@elvwood.org> http://www.elvwood.org/Traveller/
 >
 >P.S. I recently updated the website; the Traveller section hasn't
 >changed  much but the GURPS section has expanded quite a bit.
 >
 >P.P.S. I also moved hosts. Using the Elvwood domain in links (rather
 >than  the actual site it points to) is best since I own it, so it won't
 >change.
 >

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020420102803.C4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Akins wrote:
> ...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y
> coordinates of a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system
> from above, and the primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital
> parameters of the planet (orbital radius, eccentricity, orbital
> speed, reference point, etc) and the date.

Go pick up a $200 orbital dynamics textbook and figure it out.  :)


That said, if you're willing to ignore interactions between planets,
you can get a reasonable approximation with simple trig functions.  It
won't give you enough accuracy to point a telescope at them, but it
will suffice for a 2D graphical display of a system.

Start with the semi-major axis 'a' (the average of closest and most
distant approach to the star), and the eccentricity 'e'.  You can work
out the period from this, using

 T = 2 pi / sqrt(G M / a^3),

where M is the mass of the star and G is the gravitational constant.
(Oddly enough, it does not depend upon the eccentricity).

The distance 'r' from the star at a given angle 'theta' from
perihelion is given by

  r = a (1 - e^2) / (1 + e cos theta)

So this gives you the shape of the orbit.  The position variation with
time is rather messier.  I couldn't find a formula anywhere, so I
built one myself:

Let 't' be the number of orbits (or fractional orbits).  Then

  theta = 2 arctan ((1+e) tan(pi t) / sqrt(1-e^2)).  (I hope)

So for any given time, you can work out theta and hence r.


The overview: use heliocentric coordinates, i.e. with the sun at 0,0.
Find the semimajor axis 'a' and eccentricity 'a' for the planet, and
some time 'T0' when it passed through perihelion.  Also find the
angular position of that perihelion 'theta0' (relative to your X
axis).  Calculate T.

Now for any given time T1, t = (T1 - T0) / T.  Work out theta based on
t, and r based on theta.  Let theta1 = theta + theta0.

Now, X = r cos theta1, Y = r sin theta1, and you're done!

Of course, I may have made all sorts of blunders in my calculations
here, I haven't had breakfast yet!  This algorithm is offered without
warranty, including the implied warranties of merchantability ... etc.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020420103427.D4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> We also have a function returning current degree from `north':
> 
> (6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)

This is a problematic formula.  The angle swept out by a planet in
orbit is not linear in time (which I'm guessing is what you meant).
It varies in a more complicated manner.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019253756.6212.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020420073353.A4777@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1019253756.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier
> around a nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many
> nuclei, since the range of the strong force is important), or you're
> altering the probability of quantum tunneling (which I suspect would
> have dire effects on chemistry).

The latter, but only for nucleons.  This should have virtually no
effect on chemistry, which depends exclusively on electron
wavefunctions.  It would have a an effect on fusion in cases where the
fusing plasma is only marginally hot enough.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEHMDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEHMDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020420104411.F4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Brick wrote:
> To get that far, you need to have five, maybe six values to define
> an orbital path - argument of perihelion, longitude of ascending
> node, inclination to ecliptic plane, semimajor axis, orbital
> eccentricity - and the point in time (the "epoch") for which all of
> these apply.

You don't need the longitude of the ascending node or the inclination
to ecliptic plane if you're just interested in a 2D planar system.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019263660.4086.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier
> > around a nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many
> > nuclei, since the range of the strong force is important), or you're
> > altering the probability of quantum tunneling (which I suspect would
> > have dire effects on chemistry).
> 
> The latter, but only for nucleons.

Aha, so we have magically targeted changes in the rules of quantum mechanics.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 19:08:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 18:08:15 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEHCGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Gee,

And to think I thought you just took a bunch on Quarks, 
stirred in just enough gluons and VOILA!!!!

Seriously once you get into that energy domain, chemistry
is the last thing you are worried about.


JML
"Now kids, make sure that your triggering charge fuses the Hydrogen 
Nuclei all at once."

A scene from the last episode of 'Fun with Chemistry'.


Subject: Re: [TML] How Mesons a

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier
> around a nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many
> nuclei, since the range of the strong force is important), or you're
> altering the probability of quantum tunneling (which I suspect would
> have dire effects on chemistry).

The latter, but only for nucleons.  This should have virtually no
effect on chemistry, which depends exclusively on electron
wavefunctions.  It would have a an effect on fusion in cases where the
fusing plasma is only marginally hot enough.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 19:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 18:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020420103427.D4777@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:34:27AM +1000
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net> <20020420103427.D4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020419191148.A25850@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:34:27AM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > We also have a function returning current degree from `north':
> > 
> > (6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)
> 
> This is a problematic formula.  The angle swept out by a planet in
> orbit is not linear in time (which I'm guessing is what you meant).
> It varies in a more complicated manner.

Well, it _was_ an off-the-cuff first approximation.  I understand that
it actually accelerates towards the star, zips around it, then slows
down as it flies away.  Which is something the opposite of what my
formula would do--it'd appear to move more quickly at the far end as
at the near bit.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I remember when everybody posted to Usenet with their real, deliverable
e-mail address.  Of all the sins committed by the spammers, destroying
the viability of the open Internet was the worst.
                      --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 19:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Fri Apr 19 18:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS TML SKILLS
References: <20020417145227.5577E279F2@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <19435.1019129225@www58.gmx.net>

Michael Hughes wrote:
> I love Megatraveller, but like all RPGers I changed it to taste. So for my
> system, which has a combo of MT & T4 skills, plus some of my own, any
> skill
> that is related gives a Synergy bonus. For example, I consider Computers
> and
> Robotics linked skills. If you have a Skill level of 2-3 you can add a DM
> of
> 1 to a linked skill, and if Skill level 4+ add 2. If you have more than
> one
> linked skill then you only add the highest bonus. 

Nice idea - I could propably implement something like that into starship
combat, where IMHO the human aspect is overruled by computers... 'synergyzing'
skills and computers would be more to my taste.

> I have found it works very well. I am more than happy to email to you if
> you're interested, along with the reworked task & generation rules. 

That would be superb :-)  I'm allways looking for new input, especially
regarding something that's been around as long as MT.
So feel free to use my upper adress...

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419191148.A25850@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEHFGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Off the top of my head.

As you know in a given amount of time a 
planet will sweep a constant area.  Assuming 
a reasonably non eccentric orbit this could 
be approximated as an rissoles triangle with 
each long arm being the orbital radius.  The 
planet would cover a distance of roughly 
the magic area divided by the orbital radius.  
At the beginning of the next time period the 
planet's radius is (old radius + ( eccentricity
* (Magic time/orbital period) * [ 1 if 
receding from the Sun, -1 if approaching the Sun]).  
You have all three sides so use the law of cosines
to extract the angle swept, accumulate it from your 
starting angle to find the new angle.  Repeat this 
until you get to the time you want.

You only have  to calculate to half an orbit. 
If you supply the area, the starting angle, and 
the starting radius in addition to the normal 
information and you only need generate its radius 
and angle when a ship is jumping.

Unfortunately I can't see off the top of my head 
a quick way to extract the correct orbital radius 
and angle at any arbitrary time without recursion 
and a number of calculations


Yes, I realize that this will break down close to 
the primary and with eccentric orbits.

jml

Given what I recall doing in high school shop class,
I'm not all that certain that letting secondary students learn 
recombinant DNA techniques is all that good an idea.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:34:27AM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > We also have a function returning current degree from `north':
> > 
> > (6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)
> 
> This is a problematic formula.  The angle swept out by a planet in
> orbit is not linear in time (which I'm guessing is what you meant).
> It varies in a more complicated manner.

Well, it _was_ an off-the-cuff first approximation.  I understand that
it actually accelerates towards the star, zips around it, then slows
down as it flies away.  Which is something the opposite of what my
formula would do--it'd appear to move more quickly at the far end as
at the near bit.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I remember when everybody posted to Usenet with their real, deliverable
e-mail address.  Of all the sins committed by the spammers, destroying
the viability of the open Internet was the worst.
                      --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>

At 03:35 PM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Pilots are officers because the military does not
>want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
>flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
>though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
>the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
>arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
>that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
>wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
>why........

That being said, during WWII the Germans used enlisted pilots, as did the 
RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying sergeants, since they thought 
there was no reason to tie up perfectly good officers in what was 
essentially a technical skill.  That died as carriers came to the fore, and 
more Marines came to be stationed on ships. Many of the old Flying 
Sergeants received reserve commissions as officers, while retaining their 
permanent rank as enlisted men.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019263660.4086.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1019263660.4086.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020420121558.A5360@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Aha, so we have magically targeted changes in the rules of quantum
> mechanics.

Yes, that's the one :)

It goes well with the magical reactionless thrusters (or magical
HEPlaR), magical jump drive, magical meson beams, magical gravity
suppression, magical artifical gravity, and magical computer viruses.
After that, you've got the *real* magic of the Ancients' stuff...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419192446.021e1ec0@mail.verizon.net>

Hi Larsen,

Try searching for the term   "table of organization and 
equipment"   (include the surrounding quotes). I had a lot of hits when 
taking that approach.  Sorry for putting this on the web, but I can't 
contact you offlist without an email address.  :-)

Best regards and happy surfing!

Charles


At 01:45 AM 4/19/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
>     Could some kind soul please contact me off-List with some links to 
> sites that list various combat formation TO&Es?  I've tried Google until 
> my eyes crossed with no avail.  As you all well know, I'm not the 
> sharpest tool in the shed and my surfing abilities suffer as a consequence.
>     The recent TML thread discussing unit TO&Es and the well deserved 
> praise for Mr. Berry's accomplishments regarding them in GT:GF gave me 
> cause to flush all the unit descriptions in my "Dirty Little War" project.
>     Specifically, I'm interested in TO&Es from the turn of the last 
> century, say the 1905/Russo-Japanese War to 1918/Great War range.  This 
> implies large squad automatic weapons, clunky AFVs, and early combat aircraft.
>     Thank you.
>
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Larsen
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
>http://www.hotmail.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEHIGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

So did the Japanese fleet arm, so did the Soviets during the
early part of the war.

I think putting officers in charge of planes is mainly the cool
factor.  The person actually steering any navy ship is an EM
I believe, rather low of the totem pole too.  Larsen can correct
me if I'm wrong

OB TrAV
If you think about there is little difference between a Grav Tank and a
fighter at high enough TL's.  Does anyone seriously think it's just
officers driving all those grav tanks.

jml
______________________
Military -- Bangs for the Buck
Hunters  -- Bucks for the Bang
______________________
:
:
:

That being said, during WWII the Germans used enlisted pilots, as did the
RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying sergeants, since they thought
there was no reason to tie up perfectly good officers in what was
essentially a technical skill.  That died as carriers came to the fore, and
more Marines came to be stationed on ships. Many of the old Flying
Sergeants received reserve commissions as officers, while retaining their
permanent rank as enlisted men.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:36:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:36:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
References: <20020420004404.79A6F279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008201c1e814$658fd700$265d8690@computer>

> From: Michael Cessna
>   Pilots are officers because the military does not
> want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....

No.  The 'pilots are officers' thing dates all the way back to the
beginnings of military aviation.

The logic, presumably, was that a pilot was a gentleman and an educated
professional, of a higher social class to the mere tradesmen and mechanics
that worked on the ground.

There have been exceptions - "Flight Sergeants" occasionally served as
pilots in WWII.

Winston Churchill's comments on Naval Tradition apply to the traditions of
other services too, to a considerable extent.  Don't try to find present day
logic in them.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!

He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.

What I want to know is:
a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
Science?
b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?
c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:40:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:40:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <008301c1e814$662e8800$265d8690@computer>

> From: "Andy Brick"
> Do you really still generate worlds with just the basic rules ? Or do you
> use the World Builder's Handbook, or Book 6, or First In ?

Actually, I do just use the basic rules.  I also often hand tweak them, but
it's data from Book 3 that I am tweaking.

I also am in the process of developing my own world gen system.  It's
basically a simplified version of Book 3 that gives a narrower set of
results.  Of course, this is for a game that treats systems as essentially
synonymous with their major starports and startowns, plus a bit of tactical
space out to the 100D limit.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
References: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419223354.02274a00@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:01 PM 4/19/2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
>That being said, during WWII the Germans used enlisted pilots, as did the 
>RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying sergeants [...]

As did the U.S. Army Air Forces.  Among many others, there was a young 
mechanic named Chuck Yeager who volunteered for the USAAF version, and were 
also eventually commissioned (that Yeager fellow went on to break the 
"sound barrier" and eventually a Generals' star).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEHJGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Now that would be one Heck of a major
Imagine selling it to your faculty advisor 
(If I pull this off, you'll never have to 
worry about funding)
Imagine your senior project (take over an 
undistinguished Midwestern college)


jml
And then there is the sister school, 'ol Miskatonic U
(motto, where student pranks are the least of your problems)


> From: Douglas Berry
> No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!

He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.

What I want to know is:
a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
Science?
b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?
c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419224704.024bf070@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:34 PM 4/19/2002, Alan Bradley wrote:
>b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?

I believe Transylvania Polygnostic University (Trans-Poly U, motto: "Know 
Enough to be Afraid") offers undergraduate and graduate degrees in both.

>c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

I dunno, but Girl Genius is one heck of a comic book, if you're at all into 
Evil Medicine and Mad Science.  See: http://www.steamenginetime.com/


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F262jQlc7vtdFq7ImxU00001228@hotmail.com>

From: Charles McKnight <res0i3sf@verizon.net>

     Try searching for the term "table of organization and equipment"   
(include the surrounding quotes).


Mr. McKnight,

     Thanks for the tip.  As way of illustrating my dearth of research 
skills, I've been mindlessly typing "TO&E" into various search engines.  I 
never thought to actually SPELL the acronym out!  Did I mention that my head 
comes to a point?

     "Sorry for putting this on the web, but I can't contact you offlist 
without an email address.  :-)"

     Yet another example of typical Whipsnadian brain flatulence.  I ask the 
kind folk of the TML to contact me off-List and then neglect to provide the 
address.  Did I mention that my head comes to a point?
     Thanks again for your help.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <F55rVycmnh1OcA5ZWae0000d381@hotmail.com>

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>

     "I dunno, but Girl Genius is one heck of a comic book,..."



Mr. Wildstar,

     Perhaps the finest comic book series of the last half century is "Reid 
Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman".
     The seminal work gave us such lines as "I'm not bald, I get my hair cut 
this way." and "Seventy nine cents or I piss on your flowers."  Surely, the 
last alone puts "Fleming" in the canon of timeless Western literature.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <F55rVycmnh1OcA5ZWae0000d381@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:20:23AM +0000
References: <F55rVycmnh1OcA5ZWae0000d381@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020419212734.A1287@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:20:23AM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> 
>      Perhaps the finest comic book series of the last half century is "Reid 
> Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman".
>      The seminal work gave us such lines as "I'm not bald, I get my hair cut 
> this way." and "Seventy nine cents or I piss on your flowers."  Surely, the 
> last alone puts "Fleming" in the canon of timeless Western literature.

Now if I could only lay my hands on an issue.  Are they still in print?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In love, she who gives her portrait promises the original.  --Bruton 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204200336.EOZ00886@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>Subject: Re: [TML] Radioactivity Rules  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:20:23AM +0000, Larsen E. 
>Whipsnade wrote:
>> 
>>      Perhaps the finest comic book series of the last half 
>>century is "Reid 
>> Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman".
>>      The seminal work gave us such lines as "I'm not bald, 
>>I get my hair cut 
>> this way." and "Seventy nine cents or I piss on your 
>>flowers."  Surely, the 
>> last alone puts "Fleming" in the canon of timeless Western 
literature.
>
>Now if I could only lay my hands on an issue.  Are they 
still in print?
>
>-- 


I still like my Flaming Carrot.  It reminded me of me - but 
instead of comic books, it was reading and re-reading 
Traveller books and supplements continuously until I had 
brain damage.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:58:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:58:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Some Info...
In-Reply-To: <OF98BD72DE.DB3A42D5-ON85256B9F.005EA550@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEOAHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

William Lane wrote :
> do we have any Aeronautical Engineers on the list?

I'm primarily avionics, but I was cross-trained so I could be
ground crew for the RNZAF aerobatic team.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 23:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 19 22:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEOPHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> On 18 Apr 2002 at 6:46, Daniel Tackett wrote:
> The modern system has its origins in Medieval Europe,
> with knigh's evolving into the aristocratic officer
> class, etc.

Actually, it went the other way.
Peasants were given commissions from the crown so that they could
order around knights and other nobles, or so that lower ranking
nobles with better tactical capabilities could order around
higher-ranking nobles.

Commissions were actually a practical way of dealing with the
military problems involved in your military hierarchy being the
same as the hierarchy of your hereditary nobility.

> > I think it instills elitism in the wrong kind of
> > people and the wrong kind of people are less likely to
> > be patient enough for a couple of years as a grunt.
>
> That's also my feeling.

There is an extremely fine speech on leadership given by the then
commanding officer at Fort Sheridan, Major C.A. Bach,  who also
"came from the ranks" that is just as relevant today as when it
was given at the turn of the century. I'll see if I can dig out a
copy and post it, as while parts of it  are a little
anachronisitic, the core concepts, I believe, fit well with
Traveller's "Rule by men, not laws"

> > Not to say that we don't have some fine officers now,
> > but they still need to know what it's like to be
> > treated like a pawn in a chess game. I doubt this
> > ideology would work well for pilots though.
>
> Pilots are made into officers for reasons of tradition
> and there's no real reason for them to be, no matter
> what they might say on this.

It's not tradition. The Air Force (any air force) is too young to
have traditions. <grin>

Pilots in the New Zealand Air Force are currently, and have been
for the last twenty odd years or so, officers so that they can
order around grunt officers when they are on their aircraft (the
same reason that a Naval officer is always put in charge of any
ship carrying troops, even though you don't have to be an officer
to command a ship in the Navy), and also because we've got so few
of them that it would be difficult if one or two were enlisted
and the others weren't, as they wouldn't be able to (legally)
drink together.

The RNZAF had sergeant pilots druring World War II, and also
during the Malaysian 'adventure'.

In a larger air forces, including the U.K., the US, and the USSR,
and especially in combat wings, not all pilots are (or were)
officers. It's possible all UK pilots are now officers, seeing as
the UK has also been reducing it's spending, but there were
sergeant and warrant officer pilots in the R.A.F. definitely as
late as the fifities, and also in the US Army Air Corp in Vietnam
in the late sixties/early seventies, to mention examples where I
have personal knowledge.

However all pilots AFAIK have had rank of some sort, the lowest
I'm aware of is "corporal" pilots in Soviet Frontal Aviation.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 23:45:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 19 22:45:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020419212734.A1287@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOPHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

As I promised in another post here is the text of a speech on
leadership given by Major C.A. Bach
While parts of it are a little anachronistic, the core concepts,
I believe, fit well with Traveller.

Know Your Men, Your Business and Yourself
by Major C. A. Bach, US Army

In a short time each of you men will control the lives of a
certain number of other men. You will have in your charge loyal
but untrained citizens, who look to you for instruction and
guidance. Your word will be their law. Your most casual remark
will be remembered. Your mannerism will be aped. Your clothing,
your carriage, your vocabulary, your manner of command will be
imitated.

When you join your organization you will find there a willing
body of men who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that
will command their respect, their loyalty and their obedience.
They are perfectly ready and eager to follow you so long as you
can convince them that you have those qualities. When the time
comes that they are satisfied you do not possess them you might
as well kiss yourself goodbye. Your usefulness in that
organization is at an end.

From the standpoint of society, the world may be divided into
leaders and followers. The professions have their leaders, the
financial world has its leaders. We have religious leaders, and
political leaders, and society leaders. In all this leadership it
is difficult, if not impossible, to separate from the element of
pure leadership that selfish element of personal gain or
advantage to the individual, without which such leadership would
lose its value.

It is in the military service only, where men freely sacrifice
their lives for a faith, where men are willing to suffer and die
for the right or the prevention of a great wrong, that we can
hope to realise leadership in its most exalted and disinterested
sense. Therefore, when I say leadership, I mean military
leadership.

In a few days the great mass of you men will receive commissions
as officers. These commissions will not make you leaders; they
will merely make you officers. They will place you in a position
where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
attributes. But you must make good - not so much with the men
over you as with the men under you.

Men must and will follow into battle officers who are not
leaders, but the driving power behind these men is not enthusiasm
but discipline. They go with doubt and trembling, and with an
awful fear tugging at their heartstrings that prompts the
unspoken question, &#8220;What will he do next?&#8221;

Such men obey the letter of their orders but no more. Of devotion
to their commander, of exalted enthusiasm, which scorns personal
risk, of their self-sacrifice to ensure his personal safety, they
know nothing. Their legs carry them forward because their brain
and their training tell them they must go. Their spirit does not
go with them.
Great results are not achieved by cold, passive, unresponsive
soldiers. They don't go very far and they stop as soon as they
can. Leadership not only demands but receives the willing,
unhesitating, unfaltering obedience and loyalty of other men; and
a devotion that will cause them when the time comes to follow
their uncrowned king to bell and back again if necessary.

You will ask yourselves "Of just what, then, does leadership
consist? What must I do to become a leader? What are the
attributes of leadership and how can 1 cultivate them?"

Leadership is a composite of a number of qualities. Among the
most important I would list self-confidence, moral ascendancy,
self-sacrifice, paternalism, fairness, initiative, decision,
dignity, courage.

Let me discuss these with you in detail.

Self-confidence results, first, from exact knowledge, second, the
ability to impart that knowledge and, third, the feeling of
superiority over others that naturally follows. All these give
the officer poise.

To lead, you must know, you may bluff all your men some of the
time, but you can't do it all the time. Men will not have
confidence in an officer unless he knows his business, and he
must know it from the ground up.

The officer should know more about paperwork than his first
sergeant and company clerk put together, he should know more
about messing than his mess sergeant, more about diseases of the
horse than his troop farrier. He should be at least as good a
shot as any man in his company.

If the officer does not know, and demonstrates the fact that he
does not know, it is entirely human for the soldier to say to
himself, "To hell with him. He doesn't know as much about this as
I do", and calmly disregard the instruction received.

There is no substitute for accurate knowledge. Become so well
informed that men will hunt you up to ask questions - that your
brother officers will say to one another, "Ask Smith - he knows".

And not only should each officer know thoroughly the duties of
his own grade, but he should study those of the two grades next
above him. A two-fold benefit attaches to this. He prepares
himself for duties which may fall to his lot at any time during
battle; he further gains a broader viewpoint which enables him to
appreciate the necessity for the issuance of orders and join more
intelligently in their execution.

Not only must the officer know, but he must learn to stand on his
feet and speak without embarrassment.
1 am told that in British training camps student officers are
required to deliver ten-minute talks on any subject they may
choose. That is excellent practice. For to speak clearly one must
think clearly; and clear, logical thinking expresses itself in
definite, positive orders.

While self-confidence is the result of knowing more than your
men, moral ascendancy over them is based upon your belief that
you are the better man. To gain and maintain this ascendancy you
must have self-control, physical vitality and endurance and moral
force.

You must have yourself so well in hand that, even though in
battle you are scared stiff, you will never show fear. For if you
by so much as a hurried movement or a trembling of the hand, or a
change of expression, or a hasty order hastily revoked, indicate
your mental condition it will be reflected in your men in a far
greater degree.

In garrison or camp many instances will arise to try your temper
and wreck the sweetness of your disposition. If at such times you
&#8220;fly off the handle&#8221; you have no business to be in charge of men.
For men in anger say and do things that they almost invariably
regret afterwards.

An officer should never apologise to his men., also an officer
should never be guilty of an act for which his sense of justice
tells him he should apologise.

Another element in gaining moral ascendancy lies in the
possession of enough physical vitality and endurance to withstand
the hardships to which you and your men are subjected, and a
dauntless spirit that enables you not only to accept them
cheerfully but to minimise their magnitude.

Make light of your troubles, belittle your trials, and you will
help vitally to build up within your organization an esprit whose
value in time of stress cannot be measured.

Moral force is the third element in gaining moral ascendancy. To
exert moral force you must live clean, you must have sufficient
brain power to see the right and the will to do right.

Be an example to your men. An officer can be a power for good or
power for evil. Don&#8217;t preach to them - that will be worse than
useless. Live the kind of life you would have them lead, and you
will be surprised to see the number that will imitate you.

A loud-mouthed, profane captain who is careless of his personal
appearance will have a loud mouthed, profane, dirty company.
Remember what I tell you. Your company will be the reflection of
yourself. If you have a rotten company it will be because you are
a rotten captain.

Self sacrifice is essential to leadership. You will give, give
all the time. You will give of yourself physically, for the
longest hours, the hardest work and the greatest responsibility
is the lot of the captain. He is the first man up in the morning
and the last man in at night. He works while others sleep.

You will give of yourself mentally, in sympathy and appreciation
for the troubles of men in your charge. This one&#8217;s mother has
died, and that one has lost all his savings in a bank failure.
They may desire help, but more than anything else they desire
sympathy.

Don&#8217;t make the mistake of turning such men down with the
statement that you have troubles of your own, for every time that
you do you knock a stone out of the foundation of your house.
Your men are your foundation, and your house leadership will
tumble about your ears unless it rests securely upon them.

Finally, you will give of your own slender financial resources.
You will frequently spend your money to conserve the health or
well being of your men or to assist them when in trouble.
Generally you get your money back. Very infrequently you must
charge it to profit and loss.

When I say that paternalism is essential to leadership I use the
term in its better sense. I do not now refer to that form of
paternalism which robs men of initiative, self-reliance, and
self- respect. I refer to the paternalism that manifests itself
in a watchful care for the comfort and welfare of those in your
charge.

Soldiers are much like children. You must see that they have
shelter, food, and clothing, the best that your utmost efforts
can provide. You must be far more solicitous of their comfort
than of your own. You must see that they have food to eat before
you think of your own, that they have each as good a bed as can
be provided before you consider where you will sleep. You must
look after their health. You must conserve their strength by not
demanding needless exertion or useless labour.

And by doing all these things you are breathing life into what
would be otherwise a mere machine. You are creating a soul in
your organization that will make the mass respond to you as
though it were one man. And that is esprit.

And when your organization has this esprit you will wake up some
morning and discover that the tables have been turned; that
instead of your constantly looking out for them they have,
without even a hint from you, taken up the task of looking out
for you. You will find that a detail is always there to see that
your tent, if you have one, is promptly pitched, that the most
and the cleanest bedding is brought to your tent; that from some
mysterious source two eggs have been added to your supper when no
one else has any, that an extra man is helping your men give your
horse a super grooming, that your wishes are anticipated, that
every man is Johnny-on-the-spot. And then you have arrived.

Fairness is another element without which leadership can neither
be built up nor maintained. There must be first that fairness
which treats all men justly. I do not say alike, for you cannot
treat all men alike - that would be assuming that all men are cut
from the same piece; that there is no such thing as individuality
or a personal equation.

You cannot treat all men alike; a punishment that would be
dismissed by one man with a shrug of the shoulders is mental
anguish for another. A company commander, who for a given offence
has a standard punishment that applies to all is either too
indolent or too stupid to study the personality of his men. In
his case justice is certainly blind.

Study your men as carefully as a surgeon studied a difficult
case. And when you are sure of your diagnosis apply the remedy.
And remember that you apply the remedy to effect a cure, not
merely to see the victim squirm. It may be necessary cut deep,
but when you are satisfied as to your diagnosis don&#8217;t be divided
from your purpose by any false sympathy for the patient.

Hand in band with fairness in awarding punishment walks fairness
in giving credit. Everybody hates a human hog.
When one of your men has accomplished an especially creditable
piece of work, see that he gets the proper reward. Turn heaven
and earth upside down to get it for him. Don&#8217;t try to take it
away from him and hog it for yourself. You may do this and get
away with it, but you have lost the respect and loyalty of your
men. Sooner or later your brother officers will hear of it and
shun you like a leper. In war there is glory enough for all. Give
the man under you his due. The man who always takes and never
gives is not a leader. He is a parasite.

There is another kind of fairness - that which will prevent an
officer from abusing the privileges of his rank - when you exact
respect from soldiers be sure you treat them with equal respect.
Build up their manhood and self-respect - don&#8217;t try to pull it
down.

For an officer to be overbearing and insulting in the treatment
of enlisted men is the act of a coward. He ties the man to a tree
with the rope of discipline and then strikes him in the face,
knowing full well that the man cannot strike back.

Consideration, courtesy, and respect from officers towards
enlisted men are not incompatible with discipline. They are parts
of our discipline. Without initiative and decision no man can
expect to lead.

In manoeuvres you will frequently see, when an emergency arises,
certain men calmly give instant orders which later, on analysis,
prove to be, if not exactly the right thing, very nearly the
right thing to have done. You will see other men in emergency
become badly rattled; their brains refuse to work, or they give a
hasty order, revoke it; give another, revoke that; in short, show
every indication of being in a blue funk.

Regarding the first man you may say &#8220;That man is a genius. He
hasn&#8217;t had time to reason this thing out. He acts intuitively&#8221;.

Forget it.

&#8220;Genius is merely the capacity for taking infinite pains&#8221;.

The man who was ready is the man who has prepared himself. He has
studied beforehand the possible situation that might arise, he
has made tentative plans covering such situations. When he is
confronted by the emergency he is ready to meet it.

He must have sufficient mental alertness to appreciate the
problem that confronts him and the power of quick reasoning to
determine what changes are necessary in his already formulated
plan. He must have also the decision to order the execution and
stick to his orders.

Any reasonable order in an emergency is better than no order. The
situation is there. Meet it. It is better to do something and do
the wrong thing than to hesitate, hunt around for the right thing
to do and wind up by doing nothing at all. And, having decided on
a line of action, stick to it. Don&#8217;t vacillate. Men have no
confidence in an officer who doesn't&#8217;t know his own mind.

Occasionally you will be called upon to meet a situation which no
reasonable human being could anticipate. If you have prepared
yourself to meet other emergencies which you could anticipate the
mental training you have thereby gained will enable you to act
promptly and with calmness.

You must frequently act without orders from higher authority.
Time will not permit you to wait for them. Here again enters the
importance of studying the work of officers above you. If you
have a comprehensive grasp of the entire situation and can form
an idea of the general plan of your superiors, that and your
previous emergency training will enable you to determine that the
responsibility is yours and to issue the necessary orders without
delay.

The element of personal dignity is important in military
leadership. Be the friend of your men, but do not become their
intimate. Your men should stand in awe of you - not fear. If your
men presume to become familiar it is your fault, not theirs. Your
actions have encouraged them to do so.

And, above all things, don&#8217;t cheapen yourself by courting their
friendship or currying their favour. They will despise you for
it. If you are worthy of their loyalty and respect and devotion
they will surely give all these without asking. If you are not,
nothing that you can do will win them.

And then I would mention courage. Moral courage you need as well
as physical courage- that kind of moral courage which enables you
to adhere without faltering to a determined course of action
which your judgement has indicated as the one best suited to
secure the desired results.

Every time you change your orders without obvious reason you
weaken your authority and impair the confidence of your men. Have
the moral courage to stand by your order and see it through.

Moral courage further demands that you assume the responsibility
for your own acts. If your subordinates have loyally carried out
your orders and the movement you directed is a failure, the
failure is yours, not theirs. Yours would have been the honour
had it been successful. Take the blame if it results in disaster.
Don&#8217;t try to shift it to a subordinate and make him the goat.
That is a cowardly act.

Furthermore you will need moral courage to determine the fate of
those under you. You will frequently be called upon for
recommendations for the promotion or demotion of officers and
non-commissioned officers in your immediate command.

Keep clearly in mind your personal integrity and the duty you owe
your country. Do not let yourself be deflected from a strict
sense of justice by feelings of personal friendship. If your own
brother is your second lieutenant, and you find him unfit to hold
his commission, eliminate him. If you don&#8217;t, your lack of moral
courage may result in the loss of valuable lives.

If, on the other hand, you are called upon for a recommendation
concerning a man whom, for personal reasons you thoroughly
dislike, do not fail to do him full justice. Remember that your
aim is the general good, not the satisfaction of an individual
grudge.

I am taking it for granted that you have physical courage. I need
not tell you how necessary that is. Courage is more than bravery.
Bravery is fearlessness - the absence of fear. The nearest dolt
may be brave, because he lacks the mentality to appreciate his
danger; he does&#8217;t know enough to be afraid.

Courage, however, is that firmness of spirit, that moral
backbone, which, while fully appreciating the danger involved,
nevertheless goes on with the undertaking. Bravery is physical;
courage is mental and moral. You may be cold all over, your hands
may tremble; your legs may quake; your knees be ready to give
way - that is fear. If, nevertheless, you go forward; if in spite
of this physical defection you continue to lead your men against
the enemy, you have courage.

All physical manifestations of fear will pass away. You may never
experience them but once. They are the &#8220;buck fever&#8221; of the hunter
who tries to shoot his first deer. You must not give way to them.

A number of years ago, while taking a course in demolitions, the
class of which I was a member was handling dynamite. The
instructor said regarding its manipulation &#8220;I must caution you
gentlemen to be careful in the use of these explosives. One man
has but one accident.&#8221; And so I would caution you. If you give
way to the fear that will doubtless beset you in your first
action, if you show the white feather, if you let your men go
forward while you hunt a shell crater, you will never again have
the opportunity of leading those men.

Use judgement in calling on your men for display of physical
courage or bravery. Don&#8217;t ask any man to go where you would not
go yourself. If your common sense tells you that the place is too
dangerous for you to venture into; then it is too dangerous for
him. You know his life is as valuable to him as yours is to you.

Occasionally some of your men must be exposed to danger which you
cannot share. A message must be taken across a fire-swept zone.
You call for volunteers. If your men know you and know that you
are &#8216;right&#8217; you will never lack volunteers, for they will know
your heart is in your work, that you are giving your country the
best you have; that you would willingly carry the message
yourself if you could. Your example and enthusiasm will have
inspired them.

And lastly, if you aspire to leadership, I would urge you to
study men. Get under their skins and find out what is inside.
Some men are quite different from what they appear to be on the
surface. Determine the workings of their minds.

Much of General Robert E. Lee&#8217;s success as a leader may be
ascribed to his ability as a psychologist. He knew most of his
opponents from West Point days, knew the workings of their minds,
and he believed that they would do certain things under certain
circumstances. In nearly every case he was able to anticipate
their movements and block the execution.

You do not know your opponent in this war in the same way. But
you can know your own men. You can study each to determine
wherein lies his strength and his weakness; which man can be
relied upon to the last gasp and which cannot.

~~~~~~~

The document I have ends here, though it looks like perhaps there
should be a little more to it.

A note attached to the copy I have reads :
"C. A. Bach enlisted in the Thirteenth Minnesota Infantry of the
National Guard and served as a sergeant with the regiment in the
Philippines. Promoted to a Lieutenancy in the Thirty-sixth US
volunteer Infantry, he transferred in the Regular Establishment
as a first lieutenant in the Seventh Cavalry and advanced therein
to his majority.

His analysis of how to be a leader &#8211; an address delivered to the
graduating officers of the Second Training Camp at Fort
Sheridan - so moved the Reserve officers of his battalion, that
they besieged him for copies. The Waco (Texas) &#8216;Daily Times
Herald&#8217;, learning of the great interest the speech had aroused,
obtained a copy and printed it verbatim in January 1918.

A copy of the speech was inserted in the Congressional Record by
Senator Henrik Shipstead of Minnesota in November 1942, and
printed as Congressional Document 289. All of us who were NROTC
students at the University of Washington in 1943 were given
copies and, since the document is no longer in print, may I urge
you to reprint, in its entirety, what is generally regarded as
the best composition on &#8216;Leadership&#8217; ever recorded?&#8221;

I received this document from a Warrant Officer with whom I
served, W.O Brian Reid, one who also ended up getting a
commission as a Squadron Leader, and became the T.O of RNZAF base
Wigram shortly before it was closed for flying duties.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 00:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 23:21:03 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420000950.04392b20@rollanet.org>

>
>
>That's why I've always found emphasis on democracy to be more than a
>little foolish.  Certainly, it appears that democracy has the best
>chance of ensuring liberty--but it is just as capable of ensuring
>tyranny.  I don't care who rules or how, so long as I am free.  If a
>king, an emperor or the Great Purple Poobah of Penglesh ensures my
>liberties, I'll quite happily be a subject.

"In contradiction," answered signor Ottaviano, "I will deploy just one 
argument, namely, that there only three forms of sound government: 
monarchy, the rule of the good (in the ancient world called the optimates) 
and government by the citizens. And the degenerate and lawless forms taken 
by these systems when they are ruined and corrupted are, in place of 
monarchy, tyranny, in place of the best, government by a few powerful men, 
and in place of the citizens, government by the common people, which wrecks 
the constitution and surrenders complete power to the control of the multitude.

--excerpt from The Book of the Courtier (1528) by Baldesar Castiglione
translated 1967 by George Bull

It's an old debate.


--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 00:23:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 23:23:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <B8E5C044.577B2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420003838.0435ca70@rollanet.org>

At 02:38 PM 4/19/02, you wrote:
>on 4/19/02 12:32 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> > or no reason for them to be grunts first?
> >
>
>The Air Force doesn't have 'grunts'.  Didn't you know that?  They have
>technicians (Excepting Para Rescue and a few other oddballs who'd probably
>be happier in the Army or Marines. :)
>
>--

They do have those base security teams that get a whopping whole two weeks 
of ground combat training. I've even heard that during some part of those 
two weeks the trainees actually sleep in real tents on the ground.


------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com

Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.

--John Ciardi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 03:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 20 02:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020420004404.79A6F279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16yrdg-0001rp-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

"Samuel Weiss" <samwise1@msn.com> wrote:

> Don't forge the influence of Rand on Libertarianism.
> And of course, don't forget that the current Libertarian party
> leadership fully believes in guilt by association. Consider the habits of Rand
>  and the later writings of Heinlein and then consider what they say about
> Libertarians.
 
I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and 
that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually 
fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine 
sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas 
all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.

Libertarianism is in itself an oddly changeable term.  It was 
originated in (IIRC) the first few decades of the 20th century (maybe 
the 1920s) as a name fo Anarchists that avoided the negative label.

By the 1960s and early 1970s is was a (by modern standards) 
fairly leftist organization that promoted ideas like legalized drugs 
and Milton Freidman's proposal for a negative income tax (a brilliant 
proposal that was deemed by the then libertarians to be both fair 
and as an excellent method for eliminating poverty).  In the late 
1970s and early 1980s the libertarian movement was transformed 
into an organization that had far more of a focus on cutting taxes 
and preserving private property rights at all costs, in essence it 
went from primarily promoting social changes to promoting 
economic ones.  Having talked to some older (and rather bitter 
libertarians, it seems clear that at least part of the change in the 
movement came from outsiders co-opting the party (although some 
of the change was also internal).  

ObTrav, in several hundred years it would be interesting to note 
how various organizations have changed. A Feudal Technocracy 
could easily go from being a technocratic meritocracy to being a 
static and rigid system of technological oriented castes and still 
maintain the same designation.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  

  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 06:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat Apr 20 05:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16yrdg-0001rp-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <003801c1e868$a68e21e0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of
sneadj@mindspring.com
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 02:58
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism


Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
eliminate poverty?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 08:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 20 07:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b@aol.com>

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> I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and 
> that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually 
> fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine 
> sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas 
> all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.

Heinlein was, by all accounts, a minarchist - he believed that
government was a necessary evil. Insofar as you can discover his
political stance from his writings he wasn't an anarchist at all (and
he *certainly* wasn't a fascist :-/). I think his political views were
built out of faith in the soldier's virtues, along with nostalgia for the
kind of Western-frontier society that was already dying out when
he was born.

Rand was actually not a libertarian, and held libertarians in disdain.
Mostly because the people using the label at the time were much
into legalizing narcotics, as you point out. I suppose you could
also call her a minarchist, although to be sure she arrived at that
position through some of the strangest ethical notions I've ever
come across. She did have one or two useful insights, but for the
most part she strikes me as the last and most vocal advocate for
Social Darwinism.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and 
<BR>&gt; that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually 
<BR>&gt; fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine 
<BR>&gt; sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas 
<BR>&gt; all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.
<BR>
<BR>Heinlein was, by all accounts, a minarchist - he believed that
<BR>government was a necessary evil. Insofar as you can discover his
<BR>political stance from his writings he wasn't an anarchist at all (and
<BR>he *certainly* wasn't a fascist :-/). I think his political views were
<BR>built out of faith in the soldier's virtues, along with nostalgia for the
<BR>kind of Western-frontier society that was already dying out when
<BR>he was born.
<BR>
<BR>Rand was actually not a libertarian, and held libertarians in disdain.
<BR>Mostly because the people using the label at the time were much
<BR>into legalizing narcotics, as you point out. I suppose you could
<BR>also call her a minarchist, although to be sure she arrived at that
<BR>position through some of the strangest ethical notions I've ever
<BR>come across. She did have one or two useful insights, but for the
<BR>most part she strikes me as the last and most vocal advocate for
<BR>Social Darwinism.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 08:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 20 07:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
Message-ID: <200204201431.EPV00623@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Frank Pitt
<snip long post>

The most important quality I saw that was necessary and often 
missing in officers was the ability to properly delegate.

This bit of advice comes down through history in the form of 
the world's first recorded advice from a father-in-law, from 
Jethro, to his son-in-law Moses.

If you can't delegate, you can't lead.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 09:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Apr 20 08:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freelance Traveller is now Fan Site of the Week at RPGNews!
Message-ID: <o913cukv513imfb9up0a45fmfejbbava7u@4ax.com>

I just checked the site (http://www.rpgnews.rpghost.com/fansite.php) and
Freelance Traveller is the featured site right now!

:)

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 10:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 20 09:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEHJGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420084435.009e89f0@mindspring.com>

At 07:40 PM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > From: Douglas Berry
> > No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!
>
>He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
>superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.
>
>What I want to know is:
>a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
>Science?

Mad Science, I'd say.. he seemed to be more the engineer type.

>b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?

Illuminati Univeristy.

>c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

Fnord.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 11:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sat Apr 20 10:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420003838.0435ca70@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <20020420171222.30654.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

> >
> >The Air Force doesn't have 'grunts'.  Didn't you
> know that? 
 Yes, I was using the term loosely in reference to
enlisted personnel.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 11:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Apr 20 10:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204201736.g3KHaCP25223@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 00:08:07 +1200
>Subject: Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
...
>>   I'm almost of the opinion that officers 
>> > > should be enlisted first
>> Amen to that. Was it ever like that though?
>
>Not that I know of. 

  Arguably this applied in certain periods of 
Roman history, and perhaps in some other classical
armies (where maybe only members of the right
classes might act as commanders, but far from all
of those eligible would fight except as ordinary
soldiers).

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 12:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Apr 20 11:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>
References: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3cc06819.475761@post.demon.co.uk>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:

>     Specifically, I'm interested in TO&Es from the turn of the last=20
>century, say the 1905/Russo-Japanese War to 1918/Great War range.  This=20
>implies large squad automatic weapons, clunky AFVs, and early combat=20
>aircraft.

No on-line sources, I'm afraid, but my copy of the World War One
Sourcebook ISBN 1-85409-351-7 has lots of the information you're
looking for.  As an example, this is the TO&E of a British Infantry
division in 1918:

Three infantry brigades, each comprising three battalions and a trench
mortar battery. (so 9 infantry battalions and 3 mortar batteries
total).

The platoon was the basic manoeuvre unit.  It was divided into 4
sections (with 6-10 people each) plus a light machine gun section
(Lewis guns) and headquarters section (officer, NCO, 2 runners).  One
of the infantry sections was made up of specially-trained bombers
(grenadiers).

=46our platoons plus a headquarters unit made up a rifle company.

=46our companies plus an HQ unit made up a battalion.  Earlier in the
war the battalion HQ unit included a heavy machine gun section
(Vickers); these guns were later withdrawn and concentrated at
divisional level.  A battalion was nominally 977 rifles, 36 Lewis
guns.

It was standard practice for a battalion to leave behind a cadre of
troops before going into action (the "battle surplus") so the unit
could be rebuilt if it suffered major losses.

Three battallions made up an infantry brigade.  By 1918, a brigade
also included a trench mortar battery (eight 3" mortars each).

Three brigades made up a division.  (ie, 9 infantry battalions).

The division also included the following support elements:

Artillery: Two artillery brigades, with a total of six field batteries
(six 18-pounder guns each) and two howitzer batteries (six 4.5"
howitzers each).
(Earlier in the war divisions had more artillery, this was later
concentrated at corps and army level).

Two batteries (six 2" mortars each) of trench mortars.
One battalion (4 companies) of heavy machine guns. (each company with
16 Vickers guns, 64 total)

Three companies of engineers. (each with 217 men, 18 vehicles, 33
bicycles and a pontoon)
One battalion of pioneers.

Staff, signals company, three field hospitals, 21 motor ambulances,
veterinary section, employment company, divisional train (four
companies), ammunition column.
A division had 822 vehicles including 44 motorcycles and 11 motor
cars.  And, presumably, lots of horses.

Divisions were organised into corps, usually of two divisions.  Four
or five corps made up an army.

Tanks were organised into brigades, each of two battalions.  A
battalion (36 tanks) was made up of three companies, each divided into
three 4-tank sections.  Each company also had a "spare section" of 4
tanks in reserve.

Aircraft were attached at corps or army level for reconnaissance and
artillery spotting duties.


Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 12:31:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 20 11:31:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <200204201431.EPV00623@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E701D4.5797E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/20/02 7:31 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> The most important quality I saw that was necessary and often
> missing in officers was the ability to properly delegate.
> 

A problem not restricted to them either.  I sometimes wonder if the
anti-officer bias here comes from the fact that most of the prior service
were enlisted.  I've seen it from both sides.  I've seen my share of idiot
NCOs and some highly stracked Officers.  And the reverse.  I personally
don't see any great advantage in officers having served as enlisted first.

I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me with a special
insight when I had my own platoon.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 13:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat Apr 20 12:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] travlib 0.6.2
Message-ID: <20020420130659.A28851@4dv.net>

This is a message for the programmers on the list.  If you're not a
programmer, I doubt that this will be of much interest to you.

Well, once again it's time to announce another subminor release of
travlib.  This release is in many ways an aesthetic release, as
attractive code is invariably better than ugly code.  Indeed, the
corrections were inspired by mass lossage in certain parts of what I
had written.  The code base has been shrunk to 10,504 LOC, down from,
IIRC some 12-15 KLOC.  A smaller code base is a more maintainable code
base.

The most visible two correction are the regularising of both
constructor return types and the manner in which children of an object
are accessed.  As for the first, every _new() now returns a
TravMapobject*.  This is much more like the standard gtk+ way of doing
things than before, and is considerably simpler from a user
perspective.

Regarding the second, the correct way to access the children of an
object is to call trav_mapobject_get_children(),
trav_mapobject_set_children(), trav_mapobject_add_child() and
trav_mapobject_remove_child().  No more messing with
trav_galaxy_get_sectors(), trav_sector_add_subsector(),
trav_planet_set_moons() &c.  These are all logically related
activities, and it makes sense that a single suite of functions be
used.  I am going to add trav_mapobject_add_children() and
trav_mapobject_remove_children() eventually.

A side effect of this is that the children of e.g. a star are its
planets and its companion stars, and that the children of a planet are
its governments and moons.  The user can either call
trav_mapobject_get_children() and filter them on his own, or call the
appropriate class-level function.  In these cases they'd be,
respectively, trav_non_dwarf_star_get_planets(),
trav_star_get_companions(), trav_planetary_object_get_governments()
and trav_planet_get_moons().  Note that not all of these have been
written.

There has also been some slight progress with the Scheme GURPS
Traveller: First In object generation.  Nothing major yet, as
travtrack really needs to be in a more advanced state for generation
to be testable/usable &c.

On the travtrack front, I am busily working away on the galaxy and
sector browsers.  I've created a GenericBrowser base class which is
working pretty decently so far, and is much better than my old ad hoc
nonsense.  These changes are all in CVS; they've yet to be released.

The website, as ever, is <http://travtrack.sf.net/>.  If you just wish
to download files, I'd suggest <http://sf.net/projects/travtrack/>.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe
what you just said.                           --William F. Buckley, Jr.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 13:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Apr 20 12:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
References: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8e76dfb3ac3@[198.123.22.170]>

At 12:34 PM +1000 4/20/02, Alan Bradley wrote:
>  > From: Douglas Berry
>>  No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!
>
>He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
>superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.
>
>What I want to know is:
>a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
>Science?
>b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?

Illuminati University of course....

>c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

If you have to ask, you wouldn't survive....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Apr 20 13:11:02 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420000950.04392b20@rollanet.org>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420000950.04392b20@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <3cc1ca9e.6194791@post.demon.co.uk>

Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org> writes:

>--excerpt from The Book of the Courtier (1528) by Baldesar Castiglione
>translated 1967 by George Bull
>
>It's an old debate.

Even older than that, since Castiglione was simply paraphrasing
Aristotle's 'Politics' written in about 340 BC...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 14:13:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 20 13:13:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
Message-ID: <200204202010.EQF02707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>
>I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me 
>with a special insight when I had my own platoon.
>

I think it's better to find out that someone can't delegate 
when they're an NCO (or even a corporal) rather then after we 
waste the money to make them an officer.

Of course, I don't believe that leadership can be "taught".  
Talent in this area can be nurtured, grown, and refined, but 
never "taught".  If you can't lead or delegate to begin with, 
no amount of training is going to make a difference.

One other area of "talent" that isn't easily remedied by 
training - tactical ability, and an ability to implement that 
tactical brilliance in your platoon. All platoon drills 
aside -- can you and your men really fight?  I remember 
watching platoons turning into indecisive, sleep-deprived 
zombies because no one in the chain of command, officer or 
nco, could get it all together.  There's nothing more 
unnerving to me than watching a platoon in training mill 
around in my scope when a few of them are hit with MILES 
gear.  Watching the men peep their heads in and out of the 
woodline like idiots.  Officers and NCOs scratching their 
heads and having a committee meeting to decide what to do.  I 
even remember a fat platoon sergeant ambling out into the 
open, looking up and down the danger space, trying to figure 
out where I was.

Not all platoons were this bad, thank God.  But there were 
some like that.  And I put the blame not only on the LT, but 
on the NCOs in the platoon.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 16:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 20 15:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
Message-ID: <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>

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   Hi,
   Looking for alien stats for Traveller (CT/MT) the other day on the WWWeb, 
I ran across a pretty extensive (and frankly, kind of frightening as well) 
list of Traveller-related aliens, and was wondering if folks might be able to 
help me out with stats for several species that looked pretty interesting. 
   Adduxar: Carnivorous reptilians from the Zhodani book.
   Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.
   Brinn: Spider/Crablike mix from TravDigest 12.
   Ebokin: An Octopoid from The Traveller Adventure.
   Sambiqys: Red-zoned Androids from JTAS 24.
   Murians: Stocky and hirsuite from Vanguard Reaches.

   Now I'm not looking for a huge writeup or career tables or anything like 
that; merely the information on rolling up the creature's stats (+any natural 
armor or natural weapons)
   Thanks in advance :)
   Boy, if BITS or someone knocked out a 101 Aliens that'd be compatible with 
CT/MT, I know I'D sure buy it  :)

  -Ken Murphy-
   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Looking for alien stats for Traveller (CT/MT) the other day on the WWWeb, I ran across a pretty extensive (and frankly, kind of frightening as well) list of Traveller-related aliens, and was wondering if folks might be able to help me out with stats for several species that looked pretty interesting. 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Adduxar: Carnivorous reptilians from the Zhodani book.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Brinn: Spider/Crablike mix from TravDigest 12.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Ebokin: An Octopoid from The Traveller Adventure.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Sambiqys: Red-zoned Androids from JTAS 24.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Murians: Stocky and hirsuite from Vanguard Reaches.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Now I'm not looking for a huge writeup or career tables or anything like that; merely the information on rolling up the creature's stats (+any natural armor or natural weapons)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks in advance :)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Boy, if BITS or someone knocked out a 101 Aliens that'd be compatible with CT/MT, I know I'D sure buy it &nbsp;:)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 18:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat Apr 20 17:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>

This from the JTAS Online article:

Jgd in Play
Jgd should only be played and handled as NPCs; in the unlikely event of any
PC interacting with one on a personal, violent level, a typical specimen has
ST 12, DX 10, IQ 12, and HT 12/25. Their tough outer integument gives them
PD 2 and DR 5, and they can have a Move and Dodge of about 4. Their internal
gas-bags make them highly vulnerable to penetrating attacks under some
circumstances, but their internal structures are complex and robust; they
never simply "burst."

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of MurfNMurf@aol.com


  Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.

  Now I'm not looking for a huge writeup or career tables or anything like
that; merely the information on rolling up the creature's stats (+any
natural armor or natural weapons)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 18:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 20 17:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] living space
Message-ID: <200204210036.EQN01344@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Just comparing a recent ship design of mine to a current 
nuclear submarine.

It looks like a modern nuclear submarine allocates far, far 
less living space that we allocate in Traveller.  In what 
appears to be the same length of hull (length of living 
quarters space), with a known beam (10 meters in the case of 
the sub, 20 meters in the case of the Traveller ship).

In roughly 176 Traveller displacement tons, the sub has over 
129 crew.  And this is being generous: part of this space is 
taken up by bridge and torpedo tubes.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 18:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr 20 17:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net>

Swordy wrote:
> Jgd should only be played and handled as NPCs;

<rant>
What?  Why should *any* character be restricted to "GM only"?  Yes, I
do include the Emperor here, having played in a campaign which had PCs
of about the same level of power.  This seems to make rather gross
assumptions about what sort of games people are playing.  I suppose
the article didn't bother to give much in the way of game information
for this race, on the pretext that "players won't ever need it".

This is one of my particular peeves: an artificial division of
characters or character types into "PC" and "NPC" is bad enough in a
lot of roleplaying games, but assigning whole *races* to "NPC only" is
just really too much.
</rant>

What unusual type of characters have other players run?

I remember having a lot of fun playing a non-sentient ship's computer
through one adventure.  It was very highly complex, and a source of
surprise to some of the other characters, but didn't have a sense of
"self" at all.

In a fantasy game, I once played a short-lived spirit for a few hours,
while my other involved character was unconscious and dying.  It was
then woven into a spell cast by one of the other characters -- in fact
the very spell that restored my original character to health.

I designed a hive-mind character for another game, an agglomeration of
dozens of individually subsentient creatures about the size of a rat,
but the GM moved away just before that game started.


So as you can imagine, an admonition that "Thou Shalt Not Play Jgd
Characters" isn't likely to sit well with me at all.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 19:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Sat Apr 20 18:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freelance Traveller is now Fan Site of the Week at RPGNews!
In-Reply-To: <o913cukv513imfb9up0a45fmfejbbava7u@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3CC1E030.30576.5FA9886@localhost>

Congrats!

Rob

On 20 Apr 2002 at 11:13, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> I just checked the site (http://www.rpgnews.rpghost.com/fansite.php) and
> Freelance Traveller is the featured site right now!
> 
> :)
> 
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

--
Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
 Spero nos familiares mansuros.
 I hope we'll still be friends.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 21:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Apr 20 20:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 21 Apr 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <jga4cuscmeas4pgo3jqh9sm37lpbf0dttu@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - A day or thereabouts after we posted the last update, we spotted that a
   whole bunch of stuff showed up corrupted - nothing fatal, but not a
   happy-making state of affairs. It's taken most of the past two weeks to
   find and fix the problems. We know how it happened; complaints have been
   made to the appropriate quarters. Apologies for any problems or
   awkwardnesses encountered because of this. 

 - Michl Hughes brings us a quick and easy method for creating TNS news
   items. You can read about it in Doing It My Way. 

 - Freelance Traveller has been selected as the RPGNews.com Fan Site of the
   Week. We're massively flattered - but it's you, the people who have
   supported our continuing efforts, that are deserving of accolades;
   without you, we wouldn't have survived. (We looked at RPGNews.com and
   are very impressed - if you're interested in multiple systems and
   settings, not just Traveller, this is a good place to start!) 

 - Michl Hughes also profiles Calypso McArthur, an ex-freedom fighter now
   scouting or the Imperium. You can meet McArthur in Up Close and
   Personal. 

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the (working!) feedback form at
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/infocenter/feedbackform.html.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to visit our site
and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our existence
possible.




Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 22:03:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 20 21:03:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>

At 11:50 AM 4/21/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Swordy wrote:
> > Jgd should only be played and handled as NPCs;
>
><rant>
>What?  Why should *any* character be restricted to "GM only"?


Because in this case the Jgd exist only in gas giant atmospheres, are 
completely unfathomable to humans, and have no real motivations that humans 
can figure out.

Playing a group of 10 meter spheres that die quickly on most Imperial 
worlds and are allergic to jump would be a bit boring.

Any it says "should," not "must."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com> <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com> <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020421150430.A6895@freeman.little-possums.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Because in this case the Jgd exist only in gas giant atmospheres,
> are completely unfathomable to humans, and have no real motivations
> that humans can figure out.

Sounds not too much unlike some people I've known :)

But seriously, I don't see anything there that makes them more
suitable as NPC material than as PC.


> Playing a group of 10 meter spheres that die quickly on most
> Imperial worlds and are allergic to jump would be a bit boring.

Doesn't sound too bad to me.  Besides, if they're suitable as an NPC
race, why aren't they suitable as PCs?  If they're boring for players
to run, presumably they're just as boring for the GM.  If they're
incomprehensible for players, they're just as incomprehensible for the
GM.


> Any it says "should," not "must."

True, although the distinction is rather slight in modern English.
Both express an obligation in that context, and usually a *moral*
obligation.  I deny that any such obligation applies.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:08:04 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006601c1e8f2$fae49aa0$1db18b90@computer>

Forwarded by: Richard Wilson
> "In contradiction," answered signor Ottaviano, "I will deploy just one
> argument, namely, that there only three forms of sound government:
> monarchy, the rule of the good (in the ancient world called the optimates)
> and government by the citizens. And the degenerate and lawless forms taken
> by these systems when they are ruined and corrupted are, in place of
> monarchy, tyranny, in place of the best, government by a few powerful men,
> and in place of the citizens, government by the common people, which
> wrecks the constitution and surrenders complete power to the control of
> the multitude.

The three 'sound' forms listed are:
monarchy
narrow oligarchy (aristocracy, I guess)
broad oligarchy

The 'degenerate and lawless' forms are:
tyranny
narrow oligarchy(!)
democracy

There isn't really much to say here.  Signor Ottaviano clearly believes
oligarchy is superior to democracy, and who are we to argue?

Tyranny is a much-maligned form of government, I might add.  In real terms,
it's simply an "illegitimate" form of monarchy.  It got its bad name due to
the fact that it usually involved aristocratic factions repressing and
driving out their rivals.  Worse, sometimes the tyrants would seek support
amongst the common rabble, rather than amongst the good, the wise and the
pious.  You know, some of these evil b*st*rds actually tried to engage in
land reform?  The worst of them were in Sparta, where they tried to extend
the franchise!  Imagine that - all those centuries of Spartan discipline
being watered down, just because some brainiac thinks that it's a bad thing
that Sparta can't actually put an effective army in the field any more!

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:10:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>

> From: Stephen Tempest
> Three battallions made up an infantry brigade.  By 1918, a brigade
> also included a trench mortar battery (eight 3" mortars each).
>
> Three brigades made up a division.  (ie, 9 infantry battalions).

The Australian army in WWI used four battalion infantry brigades.  Cavalry
brigades were three regiments (battalions) per brigade.  I'm pretty sure
this was British practice, too.  It's possible that things might have
changed in the British army by 1918 though.  The site below is interesting,
although not detailed past the battalion level:

http://www.adfa.edu.au/~rmallett/

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20420.212115.7V6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
> ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
> Sorry to take up space with this.
>
> Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in stand=
> ard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I have wrong=
> ?

See below. You are sending html to the list. Check this url for info on
how to not do so:

	http://expita.com/nomime.html

Basicly, if your editor is *giving* you a font choice for a post to a
newsgroup or mailing list, it's either misconfigured or broken.

> Sam
>
> ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <HTML><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff" STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"=
>><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Sorry to take up space with this.</DIV> <DIV>&nbs=
> p;</DIV> <DIV>Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was=
>  sent in standard format. I use arial as my font.<FONT color=3D#000000>&n=
> bsp;What other setting&nbsp;might I have wrong?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;<=
> /DIV> <DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
> ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0--
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 01:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 00:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20420.223657.0H4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Okay, I think this may be pretty complicated, and I wouldn't be surprised if 
> the answer is "Can't be done" or "Too hard" or "Go pick up a $200 Orbital 
> Dyanmics Textbook and figure it out..."
>
> But...
>
> ...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of 
> a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system from above, and the 
> primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital parameters of the planet (orbital 
> radius, eccentricity, orbital speed, reference point, etc) and the date.
>
> I'd actually like to be able to do this for _the_ solar system, that is 
> enter 
> "Nov 16 1969" and be able to plot where the planets are on X,Y paper.
>
> Now, I know that there are comercial astronomy programs (Red Shifft, etc) 
> that can do this sort of thing...but I need to try and build this into a 
> different program, so I gotta write the algorithm myself.

A couple of books I have:

Astronomy on the Personal Computer
Oliver Montenbruck & Thomas Pfleger
ISBN: 3-540-63521-1

Practical astronomy with your Personal Computer
Peter Duffet-Smith

I don't have the ISBN on that one as I have the version for calculators.

The first book even includes a disk with source code.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 01:20:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 00:20:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20420.230402.9D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
>> HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
>> during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
>> entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
>> stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
>> have they discovered in regards to this test?

For that matter, if they *did* wind up hundreds or thousands of parsecs
away, how would the folks back at the research station ever find out?

Assuming you could build a transmitter powerful enough, it takes 326
years for a radio (or laser) signal to cross 100 parsecs. So if you
can't get back on your own, nobody will ever know. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 01:23:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 00:23:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020419202918.31056.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20420.230829.0o4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> --- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
>> Paul Walker writes:
>> > 
>> > If this is the case, what would happen if there
>> were a
>> > HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump
>> (or
>> > during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
>> > entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
>> > stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
>> > have they discovered in regards to this test?
>> 
>> I wouldn't recommend engaging a jump drive while
>> sitting in the hold of a
>> ship already in jump-space. As far as the results of
>> such an event, I would
>> assume a 99.9% chance of a catastrophic catastrophy.
>> Perhaps there'd be a One in a Trillion chance that
>> the ship would end up
>> 300,000 LY away in the Andromeda Galaxy (or at the
>> exit 13A Toll Plaza on
>> the NJ Turnpike for that matter).
>
> But why?  This is the second reply I got that said it
> would be a bad thing and would probably destroy all
> ships involved.  Is there any support for this?  I'm
> not opposed to non OTU, but my original question was
> whether there was anything in the official rules
> and/or history to support or prevent such occurances?

ASs I recall, Marc Miller has stated that all that's known about
attempts to engage a jump drive of a vessel inside a ship ythat's
already in jump is that nobody who planned to try it has ever been
heard from again. 

So either both ships were destroyed or they would up too far away to
get back.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC32DFD.4695.111623B@localhost>

On 19 Apr 2002 at 12:32, Daniel Tackett wrote:

> .
> > 
> > Pilots are made into officers for reasons of
> > tradition and there's no 
> > real reason for them to be, no matter what they
> > might say on this.
> > 
> Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> or no reason for them to be grunts first?

No reason for pilots to be officers. In WWI & WWII the pilots who were 
NCOs did just fine. IIRC Chuck Yeager was a Sergeant for WWII and a 
while after.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC32FBD.15769.11838CB@localhost>

On 19 Apr 2002 at 15:35, Michael Cessna wrote:

>   Pilots are officers because the military does not
> want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
> though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
> the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
> arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
> that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
> wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
> why........

But they're okay with NCOs (sometimes JNCOs) driving/commanding over 50 
tons of AFV, or operating anti-shipping missiles. Yep. Makes sense (I'm 
sure it must do somewhere or when).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <B8E701D4.5797E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204201431.EPV00623@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC3359D.13137.12F2A22@localhost>

On 20 Apr 2002 at 11:30, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me with a
> special insight when I had my own platoon. 

My reasoning for it is quite simple - having had to lug the sections MG 
through the bush and mud for several weeks gives a person a much better 
idea of just how much more those extra pounds slow and tire a person 
compared with a normal load. Also it would act as a weeding out process 
for some of those who thought it would be fun and games, and look good 
on their CV. I'd want at least a year, preferably two and ideally you 
wouldn't be able to do the actual officer selection until after that 
time (to help stop any favouritism), though in the real world that 
wouldn't work because very few of the sort of people you want would be 
willing to gamble with two years of their life like that.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:59:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:59:30 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <200204201736.g3KHaCP25223@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3CC3359C.14671.12F2926@localhost>

On 20 Apr 2002 at 10:34, Steven Hudson wrote:

>   Arguably this applied in certain periods of 
> Roman history, and perhaps in some other classical
> armies (where maybe only members of the right
> classes might act as commanders, but far from all
> of those eligible would fight except as ordinary
> soldiers).

True. And in theory the Athens so famour for its democracy didn't have 
an officer class/caste, etc. However in practice only those born of 
wealthy and influential families would be appointed, as with Rome 
(which is why I said there weren't any I knew of).

However it's probably worth noting that in these armies (especially the 
Roman one of the late Republic and early Empire) most of the positions 
we'd consider appropriate for officers were filled by Centurions and 
their superiors, all of whom were 'from the ranks'. There were officers 
above them who weren't from the ranks, but they were few and far 
between (I seem to recall there being none until Legion level, at which 
point there was the CO and several 'staff officers', etc.). Of course 
the rank structure was quite flat by modern western standards, too.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 04:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 03:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <200204202010.EQF02707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC33777.7691.136689C@localhost>

On 20 Apr 2002 at 16:10, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Not all platoons were this bad, thank God.  But there were 
> some like that.  And I put the blame not only on the LT, but 
> on the NCOs in the platoon.

For sure. When a platoon's that bad the OC _and_ the NCOs (all of them) 
need to be hauled over the coals. If that doesn't work send 'em down 
the road - a sideways 'promtion' is a really bad idea - some other poor 
sods might be so unlucky as to be under them when it goes to custard 
someday.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 05:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sun Apr 21 04:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3CC344CF.2707.70F26D@localhost>

On 21 Apr 2002, at 15:11, Alan Bradley wrote:

> The Australian army in WWI used four battalion infantry brigades.  Cavalry
> brigades were three regiments (battalions) per brigade.  I'm pretty sure
> this was British practice, too.  It's possible that things might have
> changed in the British army by 1918 though.  The site below is interesting,
> although not detailed past the battalion level:

At the outbreak of the 1st WW the standard European infantry 
division consisted of two brigades each of two 3 battalion regiments 
(thus giving 12 battalions). The British (and consequently Dominion 
and Empire troops) used a slightly modifed TOE with three 4 
battalion brigades to a division, also giving 12 battalions (BTW the 
Russians used two brigades each with two 4 battalion regiments 
for a total of 16 battalions). This is the classic "square" division

Between 1916 and 1917, the high level of attrition and need for 
further maneuver formations lead to the Germans and French 
changing to divisions consisting of three 3 battalion regiments for a 
total of 9 battalions (this is the now standard "trianglar" division). 
This was initially done simply to get more divisions out of the same 
number of battalions (they lacked the manpower to form new 
battalions), however it was found that the change actually resulted 
in an *increase* in firepower due to the improved tactical flexibility 
of the triangular organisation.

The British stuck with their 12 battalion divisions until 1918 when 
combined attrition of four years of trench warfare finally forced them 
to adopt the triangular division as well (not to get more divisions, 
they just didn't have the manpower to keep the existing divisions at 
12 battalions any more). I think the Australians and Canadians also 
moved to the triangular formation at around the same time. 
However the New Zealanders stuck with the older 12 battalion 
organisation right till the end of the war.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 06:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 05:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML]  Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020418234703.00aa66d0@mail.pi.se>

Hello!

Leonard Erickson wrote:

 >On the other hand, unless that collision happened *really* late in the
 >formation of the system, such a plent would tend to collect a lot more
 >gas and other stuff, and possibly wind up as a mini-GG.

 From what I recall of astronomy, the gas giants form relatively early in 
the planetary creation phase, before the solar wind has dissipated the gas 
disc. Perhaps within a few million years. The terrestrial worlds 
traditionally are pictured to form over a slightly longer period, maybe ten 
times slower - the planetesimals form quickly, but building planets from 
them take a bit more time. So there is not much of gas to collect for 
terrestrial worlds unless they form very fast. The terrestrial planets 
around our solar system seem to have got most of their atmosphere from 
impacts of comet material and outgassing, even though they would probably 
be massive enough to sweep up and retain several of the gasses in the disc 
had that disc remained when they reached present size.

I believe you mentioned yourself how gas giants are pictured to spiral 
inwards from being formed outside the snow line - it is hard to picture hot 
gas giants formed in place even around systems rich in heavy elements.

Secondarily, if we take the collision-based-planet with a density of 6-6.5 
instead of 5-5.5, it isn't that exceedingly more apt to collect more gas 
even if such gas remains in large amounts when the planet has reached such 
a size. The same problem would certainly exist for a world with slightly 
larger radius than Earth yet still having a lower density of the range you 
apparently accept as possible.

What I argue is that it is possible to build higher density worlds simply 
by using the normal rock & metal mix and examples our (only) sample solar 
system can provide.

 >>Above a certain point, you get runaway accumulation of material, which
 >>results in a gas giant of some sort.

As above, that is highly dependent not only on a limiting size/temperature 
but on whether there is any significant material to accumulate in that manner.

 >Also, that major collision is just as apt to scatter pieces of those
 >rocky world halfway across the system.

I'd wager it rather is much more likely it will shatter both bodies than it 
would stick together.

However, the surviving pieces of such collisions could still form more 
iron-rich cores in further accretion. Much or even most of the disc 
material is possibly ejected from the inner system anyway.

A high-density world would probably be more likely to survive with many 
smaller impacts blasting off parts of the lighter matter than a big one. 
Thus, my initial example was not optimal. But it still is not a reason to 
completely write off planets of say, 6-6.5 density planets as unrealistic 
or exceedingly uncommon - perhaps especially around high-metalicity stars 
where it can be assumed there would be more of rocky and metallic matter to 
accrete in the inner system.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 07:57:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 06:57:33 2002
Subject: [TML] planetoid hulls for GT?
Message-ID: <3CC2C4A6.1F017BE6@mail.cswnet.com>

How can I get a planetoid hull for GT?
Would the stats be in Gurps Vehicles?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 08:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Apr 21 07:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] living space
In-Reply-To: <200204210036.EQN01344@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEOKDOAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Just comparing a recent ship design of mine to a current
>nuclear submarine.
>
>It looks like a modern nuclear submarine allocates far, far
>less living space that we allocate in Traveller.  In what
>appears to be the same length of hull (length of living
>quarters space), with a known beam (10 meters in the case of
>the sub, 20 meters in the case of the Traveller ship).
>
>In roughly 176 Traveller displacement tons, the sub has over
>129 crew.  And this is being generous: part of this space is
>taken up by bridge and torpedo tubes.

Very true. And sailors on sailing ships had even less personal space. The
question is who would want to live like that? Conditions on submarines are
so crowded that since the 1950's submarine sailors have been allotted
quarters ashore. To really appreciate this you have to realize that surface
sailors who are single have been forced to live aboard ship, even when in
port. It basically means that you have no life. Recently the navy has begun
to extend this arrangement to surface sailors, providing quarters on a space
available basis to single sailors in home ports.

Also, one should not forget that the members of navies other than the U.S.
Navy live in much better conditions. German sailors have six person rooms
for the most junior people and four person rooms for more senior enlisteds.
(Not to mention being wet when in port.)

There is also a basic difference between any kind of Earth seagoing ship and
a Traveller spacecraft. Except in wartime most surface sailors spend only
weeks at sea between port visits. There are typically years between
deployments, which are 6 months long and are generally a matter of traveling
from port to port, with no more than a few weeks actually at sea at any one
time. (There is a certain difference now, but we are at war now, so I would
not call this typical.)

If the Traveller fleets follow the sailing pattern of the ships of the days
of sail, then it is likely that they spend years away from their home ports,
not weeks. In the age of sail sailors, in the British navy anyway, were
recruited by press gang, because it was such awful work that no one wanted
to do it. They were the dregs of society.

But the Traveller navies, like the wet navies of today require sophisticated
technologically savvy crewmen. Not the kind of people that would want to
live under conditions that exist on even today's ships (one reason the U.S.
Navy has so much trouble keeping people.)

One of the easiest, and cheapest in the long run, method of keeping high
quality people is to give them decent living conditions. It is common on
merchant ships today for seamen to live in the kind of berthing used on
Traveller ships. It is my contention that by the middle of this century U.S.
Navy ships will have similar berthing, if only because that's they only way
they will be able to compete for the high quality technical people they
need.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 08:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 07:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <20020421150430.A6895@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421071925.009f7600@mindspring.com>

At 03:04 PM 4/21/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
> > Because in this case the Jgd exist only in gas giant atmospheres,
> > are completely unfathomable to humans, and have no real motivations
> > that humans can figure out.

>But seriously, I don't see anything there that makes them more
>suitable as NPC material than as PC.

The inability and lack of desire for contact with other races? Other than 
their unique environment, the Jgd are pretty boring.

> > Playing a group of 10 meter spheres that die quickly on most
> > Imperial worlds and are allergic to jump would be a bit boring.
>
>Doesn't sound too bad to me.  Besides, if they're suitable as an NPC
>race, why aren't they suitable as PCs?  If they're boring for players
>to run, presumably they're just as boring for the GM.  If they're
>incomprehensible for players, they're just as incomprehensible for the
>GM.

Remember the Star Trek episode "Is There In Truth No Beauty?"

http://www.treasure-troves.com/startrek/IsThereInTruthNoBeauty.html

The Medusan ambassador is a good example of a race that makes an 
interesting one-time encounter, or an occassional source of odd 
adventures.  Likewise the Puppeteers in Larry Niven's Known Space 
series.  What they put Beowulf Shaeffer through...

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 08:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Sun Apr 21 07:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
Message-ID: <F89TT0rafoBdDvwGB9g0001145a@hotmail.com>

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
<P>
<DIV>&lt;snip several hundred thousand exceptionally vile words&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Leonard Erickson sent me&nbsp;a link that explained how to correct things. If I did it right this should be in rtf.</DIV>
<DIV>Sorry about the html. I didn't realize this idiotic ISP program was doing that.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></P></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <a href='http://g.msn.com/1HM205401/l'>Click Here</a><br></html>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 09:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Sun Apr 21 08:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421071925.009f7600@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204210955580.27392-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
> The Medusan ambassador is a good example of a race that makes an 
> interesting one-time encounter, or an occassional source of odd 
> adventures.  Likewise the Puppeteers in Larry Niven's Known Space 
> series.  What they put Beowulf Shaeffer through...

Limiting their suitability to a single encounter alone isn't a reason to
disallowing them as PCs.  They may only be suited to a one-shot adventure
or short mini-campaign, but what's wrong with that?

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Sun Apr 21 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204210955580.27392-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <010401c1e94c$9dd5b7e0$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

If you want to use them as a pc race fine, but I find for the most part most
races make better npc then pc, . YMMV
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Carl Kettler" <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
> Limiting their suitability to a single encounter alone isn't a reason to
> disallowing them as PCs.  They may only be suited to a one-shot adventure
> or short mini-campaign, but what's wrong with that?
>
> Gregory Kettler
> "Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
> --Dave, KODT
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 10:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 09:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <F89TT0rafoBdDvwGB9g0001145a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E83217.57B30%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/21/02 7:48 AM, Samuel Weiss at samwise1@msn.com wrote:

<snip several hundred thousand exceptionally vile words>
 
Leonard Erickson sent me a link that explained how to correct things. If I
did it right this should be in rtf.
Sorry about the html. I didn't realize this idiotic ISP program was doing
that.
 


But plain text would be better.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 10:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Sun Apr 21 09:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
References: <B8E83217.57B30%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>

Or maybe not ...

*SIGH*

Sorry yet again. Is this one right?


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 10:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Sun Apr 21 09:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
References: <B8E83217.57B30%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <014201c1e951$11ada520$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Hi Sam I didn't; know you where here to we really have to stop meeting like
this :)
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message -----
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@msn.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks


> Or maybe not ...
>
> *SIGH*
>
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?
>
>
> Sam
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 11:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 10:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E83E61.57B3B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/21/02 9:19 AM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@msn.com wrote:

> Or maybe not ...
> 
> *SIGH*
> 
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?
> 

You got it.  Thanks very much!!

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 11:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Sun Apr 21 10:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
References: <20020421100312.13099279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC2FEED.CA035AA0@together.net>

> From: MurfNMurf@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 18:55:03 EDT
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Alien Help
> 
>    Hi,
>    Looking for alien stats for Traveller (CT/MT) the other day on the WWWeb,
> I ran across a pretty extensive (and frankly, kind of frightening as well)
> list of Traveller-related aliens, and was wondering if folks might be able to
> help me out with stats for several species that looked pretty interesting.
>    Adduxar: Carnivorous reptilians from the Zhodani book.
>    Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.

	There's an expanded write-up of these creatures in GT:AR4. Along with a
number of other CT aliens and a few new one. 

>    Sambiqys: Red-zoned Androids from JTAS 24.
>
	I'm not sure where the Sambiqys were written up, but it's not in JTAS
24. In either case 101 Robots has a short writeup:

664x2-A4-PQ522-MFE7(P) Cr38,356,000 840kg
Fuel=155.225 Duration=21.56 TL=17
50/122 (mesh)
4 Med Tentacles, Head (10%), 2 eyes (+2 passive IR), 2 ears, Voder, 2
olfactory sensors, Touch sensors (+extra sensitivity), taste sensor, 2
Power interfaces, brain interface, TL17 holo recorder (3D) Electronic
circuit protection, Admin-4, Emotion Stimulation. 

	If you can read the Book8 formats that should give you a start on these
as characters. 	


-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 11:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Sun Apr 21 10:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <E16yrdg-0001rp-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <DAV501sDWek3BGGtyr300019c9b@hotmail.com>

John Snead wrote,

>I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and
that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually
fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine
sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas
all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.<

Oooohhhh ....
Someone who thinks Rand is as worthless as I do. Cool!
:-P

>ObTrav, in several hundred years it would be interesting to note
how various organizations have changed. A Feudal Technocracy
could easily go from being a technocratic meritocracy to being a
static and rigid system of technological oriented castes and still
maintain the same designation.<

Or like the Imperium itself?
:)

Or even more, consider how a change in social standards over a span of 20
years could cause people to question the government designations.  Likewise
with historical revisions.
How much would it take for <insert target leader here> to shift between
Charismatic and Non-Charismatic Dictator, or even from simply head of state
under a Representative Democracy to one of the above?


Sam
(My email is reconfigured, I have 5 minutes, and now the real suffering
begins! :-P)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
Message-ID: <19f.10e2de7.29f47482@aol.com>

--part1_19f.10e2de7.29f47482_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thanks for the info :)
Ken



--part1_19f.10e2de7.29f47482_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Thanks for the info :)
<BR>Ken
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_19f.10e2de7.29f47482_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 15:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Apr 21 14:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>
References: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3cc5281d.3577404@post.demon.co.uk>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:

>The Australian army in WWI used four battalion infantry brigades.  =
Cavalry
>brigades were three regiments (battalions) per brigade.  I'm pretty sure
>this was British practice, too. =20

Yes.  To be specific, composition of a British infantry division
altered as follows:

pre-war: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions (with 24 Vickers guns)
4 brigades of artillery (54 18lb, 18 4.5", 4 60lb)
2 Co. engineers, 1 Sq. cavalry, 1 Co. cyclists, support elements

mid-1915: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions (with 48 Vickers guns)
4 brigades of artillery (54 18lb, 8 4.5")
2 Co. engineers, 1 Sq. cavalry, 1 Co. cyclists, support elements

Sept 1916: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions, a trench mortar battery
and a machine gun company (with 144 Lewis guns, 48 Vickers guns and 8
3" mortars)
4 brigades of artillery (48 18lb, 16 4.5")
4 trench mortar batteries (12 2", 4 9.45")
2-3 Co. engineers, pioneer battalion, support elements.

Apr 1917: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions, a trench mortar battery and
a machine gun company (with 192 Lewis guns, 48 Vickers guns and 8 3"
mortars)
2 brigades of artillery (36 18lb, 12 4.5")
4 trench mortar batteries (12 2", 4 9.45")
1 machine gun company (16 Vickers guns)
2-3 Co. engineers, pioneer battalion, support elements.

Oct 1918: 3 brigades each of 3 battalions and a trench mortar battery
(with 324 Lewis guns and 8 3" mortars)
2 brigades of artillery (36 18lb, 12 4.5")
2 trench mortar batteries (12 2")
1 machine gun battalion (64 Vickers guns)
2-3 Co. engineers, pioneer battalion, support elements.

In short, a steady increase in the number of machine guns available to
the troops.  While the amount of artillery available at division and
lower levels tended to decrease, that's because it was taken into
general reserve to be deployed en masse for specific offensives -
something that made sense given the static nature of the Western
=46ront.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 15:32:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Apr 21 14:32:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419164150.01eb9740@mail.qrc.com>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203> <5.1.0.14.2.20020419164150.01eb9740@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3cc62d61.4925172@post.demon.co.uk>

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> writes:

>In every other case that is covered by the rules, attempting to do=20
>something unusual with a jump drive causes one of three results: either=20
>nothing happens, the ship misjumps, or is catastrophically destroyed.  =
Any=20
>of these would be appropriate, and destruction sounds most likely to me =
as=20
>well.

4)  you enter jump^2 space, where you spend z weeks and re-emerge into
normal jump-space z*Jn parsecs from your starting location.
Unfortunately, the value of the constant z is unknown... (but probably
extremely high.  Unless it's the square root of minus one or some such
value).  Also, the mapping of J^2-space onto j-space is not the same
as that of j-space to n-space...

5)  You appear at the centre of the universe before the throne of
Great Azathoth himself.

Stephen
tekeli-li...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 17:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr 21 16:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
References: <20020421190105.C74D2279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c1e989$71a64d00$81b18b90@computer>

> From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
> The British stuck with their 12 battalion divisions until 1918 when
> combined attrition of four years of trench warfare finally forced them
> to adopt the triangular division as well (not to get more divisions,
> they just didn't have the manpower to keep the existing divisions at
> 12 battalions any more). I think the Australians and Canadians also
> moved to the triangular formation at around the same time.
> However the New Zealanders stuck with the older 12 battalion
> organisation right till the end of the war.

OK.  That makes sense.

In WWII, Australian divisions were originally going to be organised with
four battalion brigades, but this was changed to bring them in line with
British practice.  I'd have to check the details, but I think the first
division raised (the 6th Division) was actually formed along these lines.
The battalions left over from the reduction to three battalion brigades were
assigned to the 7th or 8th division.  Like I said, I would need to check the
details...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 17:47:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 16:47:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421234639.35407.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh
future leader of men?  :P
END QUOTE
I'm a traditionilist. It means pretty much the same as
"I'm right behind you" (twelve miles that is) ;P

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 17:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 16:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421235144.21334.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
God help them.  I'm almost of the opinion that
officers should be enlisted first.  Even academy
cadets should complete 2 years before going to the
academy.
END QUOTE

I was joking! I'm not that sort of person. I in fact
believe they should do away with the whole enlited vs
officer thing! I mean it was orignally away to make
sure the nobles (no matter how imcompetent) where
never under the command of an commoner. I think every
one should start as private and take a test to be
accepted into a command academy. 

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:00:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:00:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421235938.36529.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Nah, he's just a Butter Bar wanna be. Like Lt. Gorman
in Aliens. Hey Top, you take the men in, I'll just
watch the camera's, and make sure my boots don't get
scuffed, oh, and once your in the meat grinder I'll 
be here to lead you out. Yes Sir, were on it. Vasquez
you take point.

Turokan
END QUOTE

In Australia we have pips! Not bars. ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
Message-ID: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>

I had to go with AOL 7.0 because my copy of the last AOL software that DIDN'T 
make getting rid of HTML codes a pain vanished with the HD crash of a few 
weeks ago. Regular e-mail isn't hard, but quoting text is now a major hassle, 
and I am more than a little annoyed.

This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much extraneous 
garbage?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:12:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:12:35 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <81.1a9d8d8c.29f4af3c@aol.com>

Samuel D. Weiss Said:
>>John Snead wrote,
>>
>>I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and
>>that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually
>>fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine
>>sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas
>>all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.<
>>
>Oooohhhh ....
>Someone who thinks Rand is as worthless as I do. Cool!

Without knowing how worthless you think Rand is, I've never been especially 
fond of her writing either

This is a test to see if quoted text works without extraneous garbage.

LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <20020422001538.87316.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Never, ever sign someone up as an infantryman, and
then tell him halfway through his term that "because
you were a programmer in civilian life, we're going to
make you one here, because we're short programmers. 
We don't know who assigned you here, but we've no use
for you otherwise.".
END QUOTE

Which is why I am not going to mention my major
(software engineering to the army). "Computer sir?, I
don't recognise that command sir!". Im going to be a
programmer in civilian life the last thing I want to
do in the army is program. Now running around with a
huge pack in the mud! Sounds like fun ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
In-Reply-To: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220957010.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi LKW:

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> I had to go with AOL 7.0 because my copy of the last AOL software that DIDN'T
> make getting rid of HTML codes a pain vanished with the HD crash of a few
> weeks ago. Regular e-mail isn't hard, but quoting text is now a major hassle,
> and I am more than a little annoyed.
>
> This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much extraneous
> garbage?
>
> LKW

 Shows up in PINE 4.44 fine, no extra stuff. And yeah I <96 mega pulses
deleted for content> hate aol as well.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

"J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:

> Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
> eliminate poverty?

The government defines a poverty line.  People at and near that 
point pay no income taxes.  Anyone with an income greater than 
that pays a graduated tax, depending upon how far above it they 
are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the 
government (much like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any 
money in) to give them money equal to being at the poverty line.  

End result: no one in the nation has an income that is below the 
poverty line.  Also, the amount of taxes necessary would not be 
that high, especially since the entire welfare bureaucracy (which 
consumes a surprisingly high percentage of the money allocated to 
this sector of the government) would be instantly eliminated.

In the 1970s, this idea was either proposed or promoted by  
economist Milton Friedman and was touted as a libertarian 
proposal.  Sadly, libertarianism has changed significantly since 
them (IMHO, much for the worse).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <20413.122049.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Leonard:

 Catching up on the back log of mail.

On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
> Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system.
>
> The disk formats haven't changed (not the flopiy ones anyway) and the
> newer programs can generally read the data files from the older ones.

 You have more knowledge on the tech of the systems than I. All i am
reporting is what the average user, the "plug & pray" type, have told me
in the shop. Explaining all the problems they have with the system and
upgrades. Problems with reading disks and accessing older files. I was
told that it is possible to do the work. This by a man in his 3rd year of
computer Scicese at UofO. But he also said it took some programming and
hardware work. his explanation went above my head.

> FM (aka "single density") and MFM (aka "double density" and "high density").
>
> Most "modern" floppy controller chips can't read FM disks. But a lot of
> fairly recent ones can. For example, the Adaptec SCSI cards that
> include a floppy controller can.

 Accedentally tried to format a single density disk on my 1571 drive. In
short I have 4 of them to now to a manual head alignment job. My drives
contain the micro processor. Not certain if new cards installed would work
or be possible. Though I do remember that the first HD for the C= being
the Lt. Kernal used MFM hard drives.

> With some easily available software I can read TRS-80 floppies on my
> PC. To read Commodore or Apple GCR disks, I'd have to install the old
> CopyIIPC deluxe option board in one of my systems.

 What about emulators? i hear on some of the lists and newsgroups about
Vice 1.8 as the best out there for reading C= disk images. The .D64, .D71
and the .D81 image copy style. is this what you mean or is the above
something that I am not familiar with at this time?

> PCjr floppies used the same format as the PC.
>
> No idea what the X-box uses.

 I may be wrong, but I was told that besides the disk media. That some of
the Os is put on the disk in what I know as track and sectors. I was told
that the track and sectors for this information change with the upgrades.
Therefore this is a reason why newer systems have trouble or can't read
the older disks. This problem happened when a friend of mine tried to copy
his wifes 286 disks to the hard drive on his vin95v4 <IIRC> it wrote new
os on the original disks. how this happened or the exact things done I
don'T know. just that both of them were stock users. No programming
understanding.

> What gets fun is when you need to read things like 8" floppies or the
> whacko Amstrad 3" (*not* 3.5"!) floppies. Or cassette tapes, or stringy
> floppies or other weird media.

 <grins> Recently saw a store selling the 8" ones as part of a side walk
sale. They were surprised when I went for 50 still sealed DS/Dd 5 1/4 soft
sectored disks. FWIW Verbatium has a site up where they are selling these
disks. including the 8" and some other weird sizes I don't remember.
Speaking of cassette tapes. That is a project that I am working upon.
Converting my tape collection to disk. Not an easy one. But possible. Not
certain what you mean by stringy floppies. But I do remember in college
paper tape and those <name escapes me> punch cards.

> I once had to recover a program by reading paper tape by *hand*.

 That was a test in 74 at the class I had to take. Fun isn't it?? <BG>

> I have a DOS program called HTMSTRIP that takes HTML and produces a
> reasonably formatted plain text file. It even puts in the "boxes" in
> tables.

 My Wave prg alows me to choice between a dial up to telnet or a direct
text based web browser. I can do better with the new beta version on
working with frames if I use the straight browser. Most of the time I use
the lynx for Inet web work. Takes most frames well. But not yet will
either do the boxes. My e-mail is with Pine 4.44 though the telnet.
Eventually I will use Qwkrr for my off line reader. Still sending via
telnet the packet to videocam. Generally it makes things smooth in
reading. Removing some inconsistencies and prompts me at the start of the
msg that it has done this job and that some charcters maynot be correct.
HTML though is not always corrected. At the best everything is in
underline. At the worse all commands are enclosed in "<xx>" in the msg.
Making inding the actual content almost impossible. I have yet to try w3m.
my SysAdmin tells me this is good for frames and forms.

> There's a DOS program that'll view many image formats, including .AVI
> and MPEG files, and play a lot of sound formats.

 The free beta test of JOS will allow me to see JPEG on scren while on
line. Also and here I am out of my experience, play Wave and RAW and some
form of streamlined MP something sound files. Right now I am considering
dl ing the plans for the new ethernet board for my C=.

> Well, the idea is that there need to be publicly available standards.
> Having multiple standards is merely inconvenient as long as the info
> on the file formats is available.

 That is a problem we have today the no standards since the other systems
like mine are still in use. Impossible to set a standard then without
causing a revolt of users of the non standard platforms. A good story idea
for a lower tech level world??

 Plot ideas are running rampant in my head. Wish I could read my
penmanship for the notes I am taking on this topic. So many worlds at so
many tech levels. Creating so many different platforms. The possibilities
for computer difficulties are almost endless. However I would think that
there are Imperial standards for navigation. Set probably by the ISS. Even
if emulators and converters have to be installed in the software or
hardware on the ship. Another part of the computer skill?

> The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
> either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
> to import and export files in those formats.

 That sounds nice on paper. However I can see resentment happening. Just
based on the little that we have not using windoze systems.  We face
discrimination and that builds resentment to hostility. In Traveller, on
frontiere worlds that are doing their own thing. This could grow into a
sense of "National" pride. Or the thought of being "forced" into
something. Still I suspect that there is something going on in the
computer line. Where the files are sent say from the x-boat to panet and
revers. Where it is translated to the usable format for the receptor of
the information.

> Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
> equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
> finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice.

 Myself, I am working on converting PET to geoWrite 2.1 then converting
the final output to Ascii for upload to the places I write for through the
Inet. I can do the revese and prefere to do all my writing in GeoWrite 2.1
Takes just a few minutes to convert back and forth. Perhaps that is a
thought for the Imperial mail at least. Though expanded for images and
text for the local systems.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <20020422001538.87316.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421173609.009ec3e0@mindspring.com>

At 10:15 AM 4/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Now running around with a
>huge pack in the mud! Sounds like fun ;)

Oh it is, for the first ten miles or so!

OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at the start of the 
road march, how much will it weigh after 25 miles cross-country through 
Korea in July?


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:06:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:06:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
In-Reply-To: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174048.009fa870@mindspring.com>

At 08:07 PM 4/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
>This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much extraneous
>garbage?

Check. free and clear.

If I ever have to change systems, I'm posting the Beowulf mayday as my test 
post.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:09:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:09:13 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020421235144.21334.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174146.009fba50@mindspring.com>

At 09:51 AM 4/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
>I was joking! I'm not that sort of person. I in fact
>believe they should do away with the whole enlited vs
>officer thing! I mean it was orignally away to make
>sure the nobles (no matter how imcompetent) where
>never under the command of an commoner.

Well, that's sort of true, but there is a very real reason for the gulf 
between officers and enlisted men.

In combat, and officers has to be able to order men to take actions that 
will almost certainly get them killed, and have those orders carried out 
without question. An officer has to be a rather remote figure of power, 
hence all the saluting and calling someone with bars on his collars  "Sir" 
even though he might be younger than you.

Officers also are the responsible ones.  When things go wrong, it is the 
officer's fault. That is an awesome responsibility, and they deserve 
a  little deference from us grunts.

I served under all three flavors of officer, ROTC, trade school, and 
OCS.  They all had their differences, but I'd rather be led a member of the 
Hudson High Alumni association than a guy doing his six years to pay off 
getting his degree in Marketing at Party U.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:13:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220927280.6440-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Sam:

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Samuel D. Weiss wrote:

> Or maybe not ...
>
> *SIGH*
>
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?

 Came across to me <ascii only> quite fine. No html or things I can't
read.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204220112.ESJ04755@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry asks
>
>OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at 
>the start of the road march, how much will it weigh after 25 
>miles cross-country through Korea in July?
>

About the same as the Dragon, with spare round.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:18:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:18:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
Message-ID: <20020421.210932.-150737.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

> This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much 
> extraneous garbage?
> 
> LKW

I'm reading it fine as straight text.  Considering I use Juno (which
considers *anything* besides straight text as an evil abberation) I'd say
you're doing fine.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421173609.009ec3e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC36486.FE987F75@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 10:15 AM 4/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
> >Now running around with a
> >huge pack in the mud! Sounds like fun ;)
> 
> Oh it is, for the first ten miles or so!
> 
> OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at the start of the
> road march, how much will it weigh after 25 miles cross-country through
> Korea in July?

23 pounds, which is about half as much as that damnable M40 protective
mask that keeps banging against your left thigh with each step.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:26:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Scheets)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:26:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <008801c1e978$f0b18e40$8e83bad0@computer2>

Robot cameras 'will predict crimes before they happen'

By learning behaviour patterns, computers could soon alert police when an
unmanned camera sees 'suspicious' activity
By Andrew Johnson
21 April 2002

Computers and CCTV cameras could be used to predict and prevent crime before
it happens.

Scientists at Kingston University in London have developed software able to
anticipate if someone is about to mug an old lady or plant a bomb at an
airport.

It works by examining images coming in from close circuit television cameras
(CCTV) and comparing them to behaviour patterns that have already programmed
into its memory.

The software, called Cromatica, can then mathematically work out what is
likely to happen next. And if it is likely to be a crime it can send a
warning signal to a security guard or police officer.

Full story at:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=287307


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:34:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:34:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <20020422001538.87316.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002301c1e99e$0f4d18e0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Ramsay" <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au>
> Which is why I am not going to mention my major
> (software engineering to the army). "Computer sir?, I
> don't recognise that command sir!"

Just as long as you don't say "Computer sir? Bad Command or Filename sir!"

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <81.1a9d8d8c.29f4af3c@aol.com>
References: <81.1a9d8d8c.29f4af3c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8qq6cukej81v0jdgtshfhj82sl6acr8foc@4ax.com>

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 20:11:40 EDT, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>Samuel D. Weiss Said:
>>>John Snead wrote,
>>>
>>>I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and
>>>that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it =
actually
>>>fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine
>>>sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas
>>>all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.<
>>>
>>Oooohhhh ....
>>Someone who thinks Rand is as worthless as I do. Cool!
>
>Without knowing how worthless you think Rand is, I've never been =
especially=20
>fond of her writing either
>
>This is a test to see if quoted text works without extraneous garbage.

The quoting seems to have worked pretty well from this side of things.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 21:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 20:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020421224306.00a87f00@rollanet.org>

So this is the reason that starports are on the planet's surface and 
highports aren't as common.

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%7B1F54AEED-A34B-411B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D

--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 21:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 21 20:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 05:38:11PM -0700
References: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020421214459.A958@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 05:38:11PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the government (much
> like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any money in) to give them
> money equal to being at the poverty line.

All that'd do is devalue the dollar until the poverty line in dollars
is once again below the poverty line in fact.  It's a better scheme
than the current welfare regime, and may indeed work rather more
slowly to eviscerate the economy, but the end result'd be the same.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Security-wise, NT is a server with a 'kick me' sign taped to it.
                                                --Peter Gutmann

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 22:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 21:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <20020422041531.74282.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Robot cameras 'will predict crimes before they happen'
By learning behaviour patterns, computers could soon
alert police when an unmanned camera sees 'suspicious'
activity
END QUOTE

Until we develop AI or very very sophisticated system
this would be useless in the real world. How does a
computer now whether a person is reaching for a gun or
there wallet? Answer they can't. All it can do is
determine that an image of a person looks like its
reaching for something. If they stopped wasting money
on tech dreams such as this actual humans could be
hired. And for a very long time into the future humans
(even the ones typically hired as security guards)
will have more reasoning ability than all the
computers in the world! Robotic security guards have
been in development since the 70's and no one has yet
to make one that is accurate and/or doesn't cost more
than the police budget for a small city.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 22:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 21:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules (OT about computers)
Message-ID: <20020422041947.44658.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Just as long as you don't say "Computer sir? Bad
Command or Filename sir!"
END QUOTE

Evil thought! 

EnlistedOS. "What hard drive sir?", "Sir, the private
doesn't know where that file is", "I don't know what
happened to the RAM, sir", "Sir, it was there the last
time I checked", "But sir the registry needed cleaning
sir".

very evil indeed.

James




=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 22:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 21:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <3CC3930A.D2B8F94D@mail.cswnet.com>

Richard Wilson writes:
>So this is the reason that starports are on the planet's surface and 
>highports aren't as common.

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%7B1F54AEED-A34B-411B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D

JOY! Hydrogen wells! JOY! That will make the Downports in systems
without gas giants or other significant surface water so much easier to
deal with. I can see it now...

"168-1106 Arba/Lunion
A media advisor for Myers Mining and Manufacturing announced the
discovery of large subsurface hydrogen deposits....."

I can see the port director thinking about it now...

"No more stupid fuel blimps. No more running to the asteroid belt to
melt ice. No more begging Lanth for a refueling ship. No more...."

I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen Drilling Platform?
What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How exactly would one
extract it from the subsurface? Would there be any hazards?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 23:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 22:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20421.215401.3P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Or maybe not ...
>
> *SIGH*
>
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?

Yep. Looks good.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 23:09:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 22:09:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <F89TT0rafoBdDvwGB9g0001145a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20421.215246.9z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
> <P>
> <DIV>&lt;snip several hundred thousand exceptionally vile words&gt;</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>Leonard Erickson sent me&nbsp;a link that explained how to correct 
> things. If I did it right this should be in rtf.</DIV>
> <DIV>Sorry about the html. I didn't realize this idiotic ISP program was 
> doing that.</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></P></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Join the world&#8217;s largest 
> e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <a 
> href='http://g.msn.com/1HM205401/l'>Click Here</a><br></html>

You don't want RTF either. You want "plain text" or "ASCII". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 00:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 23:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <20020421.230604.-125605.5.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:35:22 -0500 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
>
> I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen Drilling Platform?
> What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How exactly would one
> extract it from the subsurface? Would there be any hazards?
> 

One word - Praxis!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 00:12:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 23:12:29 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421.230604.-125605.4.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:59:38 +1000 (EST) =?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=
<quakers_united@yahoo.com.au> writes:
> QUOTE
> Nah, he's just a Butter Bar wanna be. 
> 
> Turokan
> END QUOTE
> 
> In Australia we have pips! Not bars. ;)
> 
> James

That's fine James, in America it fits our Army OCS graduates fairly well.
Not the West Point grads. To me, if they can make it through West Point,
they've earned the respect of being called Sir.

Anyway Butter "pips" just don't sound good.

What do you call your OCS officers?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 00:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 23:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20421.220153.6l0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hoi Leonard:
>
>  Catching up on the back log of mail.
>
> On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
>> Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system.
>>
>> The disk formats haven't changed (not the flopiy ones anyway) and the
>> newer programs can generally read the data files from the older ones.
>
>  You have more knowledge on the tech of the systems than I. All i am
> reporting is what the average user, the "plug & pray" type, have told me
> in the shop. Explaining all the problems they have with the system and
> upgrades. Problems with reading disks and accessing older files. I was
> told that it is possible to do the work. This by a man in his 3rd year of
> computer Scicese at UofO. But he also said it took some programming and
> hardware work. his explanation went above my head.

Upgrading hardware can cause problems with almost any bit of hardware
in the system. A common problem when upgrading to the motherboards we
prefer is that the printer port won't work unless you know the right
way to force Windows to rescan for the hardware in the system. 

Most folks just give up and reinstall from scratch. 

Also, floppy drives *do* get out of alignment. 

But with windows, the first thing to suspect is that hardware manager
is loading drivers for a previous card or motherboard.

>> With some easily available software I can read TRS-80 floppies on my
>> PC. To read Commodore or Apple GCR disks, I'd have to install the old
>> CopyIIPC deluxe option board in one of my systems.
>
>  What about emulators? i hear on some of the lists and newsgroups about
> Vice 1.8 as the best out there for reading C= disk images. The .D64, .D71
> and the .D81 image copy style. is this what you mean or is the above
> something that I am not familiar with at this time?

I'm talking about reading actual floppies. The CopyIIPC board hooks
between the PC's floppy controller and the floppy drives. It lets you
read Mac & Commodore floppies.

>> PCjr floppies used the same format as the PC.
>>
>> No idea what the X-box uses.
>
>  I may be wrong, but I was told that besides the disk media. That some of
> the Os is put on the disk in what I know as track and sectors. I was told
> that the track and sectors for this information change with the upgrades.

Nope.

DOS and Windows use 512 byte sectors on floppies (and on most HDs). The
original 5.25" floppies used 40 tracks, with 8 sectors per track.
Single or double sided. (for 160k and 320k per floppy)

Later that was upped to 9 sectors per track, giving 180k and 360k per
floppy.

There were some odd formats used on a few proprietary versions of DOS,
especially on 3.5" disks before IBM introduced their version. 

Standard 3.5" DD disks are 720k. 80 track, 40 sectors per track.

The HD floppies were 80 track on both sizes of floppy. Which, btw,
caused mah\jor problems with writing to 5.25" DD floppies on HD drives...

1.2M 5.25" floppies were 16 sectors per track, 80 track.
1.4 meg 3.5" floppies were 18 sectors per track, 80 track.

But with the right commands you can read/write any MFM format that the
drive will support. 

It's the weird sector sizes, FM and GCR formats that you need to have
the right hardware for.

> Therefore this is a reason why newer systems have trouble or can't read
> the older disks.

Ok, Windows will clobber *non*-DOS disks, and some "special" dos disks
because it checks to see if disks have been changed by writing a made
up string to a location on the floppie normal used for an ID string
used to identify various OEM versions of DOS. This makes the disks
unreadable on the original system.

Never stick install disks from older software, or things like BIOS
upgrade disks into a box running windows without write protecting the floppy.

> This problem happened when a friend of mine tried to copy
> his wifes 286 disks to the hard drive on his vin95v4 <IIRC> it wrote new
> os on the original disks. how this happened or the exact things done I
> don'T know. just that both of them were stock users. No programming
> understanding.

Trust me, *they* did it. Not the OS.

Either the alignment on the drives doiffered and it asked if he wanted
to format the disks, and he said yes, or he did something else stupid. 

You see, without any special commands at all, I copied 100 floppies from
an XT system to directories on my HD and then burned a CD for him. 

I had a bit more trouble with the HD...

>> What gets fun is when you need to read things like 8" floppies or the
>> whacko Amstrad 3" (*not* 3.5"!) floppies. Or cassette tapes, or stringy
>> floppies or other weird media.
>
>  <grins> Recently saw a store selling the 8" ones as part of a side walk
> sale. They were surprised when I went for 50 still sealed DS/Dd 5 1/4 soft
> sectored disks. FWIW Verbatium has a site up where they are selling these
> disks. including the 8" and some other weird sizes I don't remember.

8" floppies are *expensive* now, because so few folks use them anymore.

> Speaking of cassette tapes. That is a project that I am working upon.
> Converting my tape collection to disk. Not an easy one. But possible. Not
> certain what you mean by stringy floppies. But I do remember in college
> paper tape and those <name escapes me> punch cards.

Stringy flopies were a sort of high speed cassette. They used a credit
card sized endless loop tape (rather like an 8-track, but smaller). The
drives were available for several systems, Apple, TRS-80, etc.

>> Well, the idea is that there need to be publicly available standards.
>> Having multiple standards is merely inconvenient as long as the info
>> on the file formats is available.
>
>  That is a problem we have today the no standards since the other systems
> like mine are still in use. Impossible to set a standard then without
> causing a revolt of users of the non standard platforms. A good story idea
> for a lower tech level world??

You are suffering from the delusion that new standards are required to
be usable on "obsolete" equipment. Or even on brands of equipment other
than those of the outfit setting the standard.

>  Plot ideas are running rampant in my head. Wish I could read my
> penmanship for the notes I am taking on this topic. So many worlds at so
> many tech levels. Creating so many different platforms. The possibilities
> for computer difficulties are almost endless. However I would think that
> there are Imperial standards for navigation. Set probably by the ISS. Even
> if emulators and converters have to be installed in the software or
> hardware on the ship. Another part of the computer skill?

You have to remember that most lower tech worlds aren't inventing their
tech. They are upgrading to *existing* tech used on other worlds. Or
they have chosen a locally sustainable tech level lower than that of
the world they were settled from.

After the Long night, you'd get a lot of independent stuff. But it'd be
unlikely to last more than a century or so. Uniform standards are just
too useful. And unless you are the highest tech world in the area,
you'll be replacing or upgrading your stuff in less than a century
anyway. 

>> The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
>> either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
>> to import and export files in those formats.
>
>  That sounds nice on paper. However I can see resentment happening. Just
> based on the little that we have not using windoze systems.  We face
> discrimination and that builds resentment to hostility. In Traveller, on
> frontiere worlds that are doing their own thing. This could grow into a
> sense of "National" pride. Or the thought of being "forced" into
> something.

I think you are confused here. I'm talking about data formats. That's
not the same as stuff like spreadsheets and other "software specific"
formats. 

The only reason you wouldn't be able to import/export stuff in a
"universal" data format would be if your equipment just plain wasn't up
to handling the *data*. For example, it gets *really* hard to handle
multi-gigabyte files on an 8-bit system<g>

The one exception would be compression methods, where the "horsepower"
of the system can make it impossible to handle it on lower powered
systems.

Windows dominance and "universal" data exchange formats are only
loosely related. MS *wants* their stuff to be all that's used and tries
to make it hard to use "foreign" formats (or makes changes to break
formats so the MS version can read files from other software but can't
be read on the other platforms).

> Still I suspect that there is something going on in the
> computer line. Where the files are sent say from the x-boat to panet and
> revers. Where it is translated to the usable format for the receptor of
> the information.

It shouldn't require translation *at all* is my point. GIFs don't need
to be translated. ASCII text only needs translation on systems that
don't support it (and BTW, Commodore was incredibly *stupid* in not
supporting ASCII when they designed the PET the standard had been
around since 1968!!)

>> Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
>> equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
>> finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice.
>
>  Myself, I am working on converting PET to geoWrite 2.1 then converting
> the final output to Ascii for upload to the places I write for through the
> Inet. I can do the revese and prefere to do all my writing in GeoWrite 2.1
> Takes just a few minutes to convert back and forth. Perhaps that is a
> thought for the Imperial mail at least. Though expanded for images and
> text for the local systems.

Again, most tech will *not* be native except in small areas or certain
time periods.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <010401c1e94c$9dd5b7e0$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic

Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.

Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
<grin>

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:26:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:26:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
In-Reply-To: <20020421.230604.-125605.5.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
> >
> > I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen 
> > ? Drilling Platform?
> > What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How 
> > exactly would one> extract it from the subsurface? 
> > Would there be any hazards?
> 
> One word - Praxis!

Um, sorry ?

What does Piaget's term for a child's system of coordinated 
and deliberate movements acquired during the sensory- motor 
stage of development have to do with hydrogen drillling ? 

Or, for that matter, what does the term for the right of 
a Camarilla Prince to rule his city have to do with hydrogen 
drilling ?

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:28:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:28:47 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote :
> The government defines a poverty line.
> People at and near that  point pay no income taxes.
> Anyone with an income greater than that pays a
> graduated tax, depending upon how far above it
> they are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets
> money from the government (much like a tax refund
> but w/o having to pay any money in) to give them
> money equal to being at the poverty line.
>
> End result: no one in the nation has an income that is
> below the poverty line.

And almost no one in the counry has an after tax income that is
much above the poverty line either.

> Also, the amount of taxes necessary
> would not be  that high,

Oh yes it is. You should try living in New Zealand.
20% of the country pay for 80% of it.
The remaining 20% pay their own way.

I'm paying about 40% of my income in income tax alone.
Add onto that sales tax, local government taxes, etc, etc.
and its approaching 60% of my income in tax.

And I still have to pay health insurance and tuition fees on
top of that because the state systems suck for everything
except emergency surgery.

> especially since the entire welfare
> bureaucracy (which consumes a surprisingly high
> percentage of the money allocated to this sector
> of the government) would be instantly eliminated.

And instead that bureaucracy would be duplicated
in the IRS. The bureaucracy for distributing the
money will be the same no matter who controls it.

They had the same idea over here, it increased the
bureaucracy, because although they had the IRD
refunding money to people, they _still_ had to have
the rest of the social welfare system to handle all
the other allowances, like the solo parent's benefit,
the "being Maori" benefit, the "being lesbian"
benefit, and the "being a Maori lesbian solo parent"
benefit, and the...

Sorry, it gets a bit much sometimes, especially when
they teach young girls that a "valid career choice" is
"solo parent".

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002, at 20:35, Frank Pitt wrote:

> They had the same idea over here, it increased the
> bureaucracy, because although they had the IRD
> refunding money to people, they _still_ had to have
> the rest of the social welfare system to handle all
> the other allowances, like the solo parent's benefit,
> the "being Maori" benefit, the "being lesbian"
> benefit, and the "being a Maori lesbian solo parent"
> benefit, and the...
> 

Frank, please be careful here.  I'd like not to be too inflammatory, 
but that statement came close to being racist and homophobic, 
two adjectives I really don't like.  If you need to say stuff like that, 
please keep it out of my mailbox.

Sincerely,
-- Rachel Kronick


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 03:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon Apr 22 02:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <200204220112.ESJ04755@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPEENFEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Douglas Berry asks
>
>OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at
>the start of the road march, how much will it weigh after 25
>miles cross-country through Korea in July?
>

It is a well know fact that as one gets more tired gravity increases where
ever you happen to be. Thus equations for acceleration due to gravity need
to incorporate a fatigue factor.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 03:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 02:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020421214459.A958@4dv.net>
References: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020421214459.A958@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020422193023.A3521@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> All that'd do is devalue the dollar until the poverty line in
> dollars is once again below the poverty line in fact.

Not at all.  That would only be true if the society is very close to
being unable to support its population at poverty line levels -- which
doesn't hold true for any modern industrialised nation.  It is already
demonstrated that rich countries *can* support large government
payments to a large proportion of their population -- all that would
change is who gets what.

Compared with Australia's current welfare system, for example, it
would greatly *encourage* employment and hence productivity of society
as a whole.  As it stands, anyone in Australia who gets even a
part-time job loses their unemployment payments, health care
concessions, rent assistance, eligibility for taxation breaks, and
other benefits -- and usually so do their spouses.  It's a great
disincentive -- in most cases, working 20 hours a week is a net *loss*
over not working at all.

I realise this anecdotal report doesn't refute your point, but it does
show that a much worse system than the one proposed can remain stable
for quite a while.  I don't think it will actually remain so for
political reasons, but economically it could certainly be sustained
indefinitely.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 03:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Apr 22 02:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <20020422093745.58225.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to
> Comics.
Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember
what he did.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 04:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 03:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz> <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020422202058.B3521@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rachel Kronick wrote:
> Frank, please be careful here.  I'd like not to be too inflammatory, 
> but that statement came close to being racist and homophobic, 

Blame it on the government, not Frank.  They're the ones making
decisions whether to hand out money based on the origin of your
ancestors.  I'm not sure whether he was being serious about the
"lesbian" benefit or not.  The solo parent benefit certainly is fact.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 06:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon Apr 22 05:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422202058.B3521@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002, at 20:20, Timothy Little wrote:

> Blame it on the government, not Frank.  They're the ones making
> decisions whether to hand out money based on the origin of your
> ancestors.  I'm not sure whether he was being serious about the
> "lesbian" benefit or not.  The solo parent benefit certainly is fact.
> 

I have little or no problem with the government's decisions regarding 
benefits; the problem was that Frank came very close to implicitly 
saying that being Maori or being lesbian was a bad thing.  His 
derisive tone, not the government's decision, was what irked me.

Okay, nothing further on this subject, at least from me.  

-- Rachel 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 06:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon Apr 22 05:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <E16zdOy-0005P5-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

Eventhough the people maintaining the airplane are all enlisted, some with =
only 6-8 weeks of training.

Beth (retired aircraft maintainer)


>   Pilots are officers because the military does not
> want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
> though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
> the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
> arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
> that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
> wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
> why........
>=20
>      MACessna


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon Apr 22 06:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <E16zdga-0005cC-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

It's OK, nothing to worry about.  Everything will be alright.  Why don't yo=
u follow these two gentlemen to a nice comfy room we have for you.  All pad=
ded and quiet.  Latter we will feed you.  We hope that you like pudding.  W=
e will even fit you with a new jacket as well.  <g,d,r>

Beth :)  (who also had had the same types of brain lock-downs)


>=20
> Mr. McKnight,
>=20
>      Thanks for the tip.  As way of illustrating my dearth of research=20
> skills, I've been mindlessly typing "TO&E" into various search engines.  =
I=20
> never thought to actually SPELL the acronym out!  Did I mention that my h=
ead=20
> comes to a point?
>=20
>      "Sorry for putting this on the web, but I can't contact you offlist=
=20
> without an email address.  :-)"
>=20
>      Yet another example of typical Whipsnadian brain flatulence.  I ask =
the=20
> kind folk of the TML to contact me off-List and then neglect to provide t=
he=20
> address.  Did I mention that my head comes to a point?
>      Thanks again for your help.
>=20
>=20
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 08:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Mon Apr 22 07:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
Message-ID: <F34UkSQDq1gFSlgOLN300005c8f@hotmail.com>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
> >
> >I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me
> >with a special insight when I had my own platoon.
> >
>
>I think it's better to find out that someone can't delegate
>when they're an NCO (or even a corporal) rather then after we
>waste the money to make them an officer.
>
>Of course, I don't believe that leadership can be "taught".
>Talent in this area can be nurtured, grown, and refined, but
>never "taught".  If you can't lead or delegate to begin with,
>no amount of training is going to make a difference.
>
>One other area of "talent" that isn't easily remedied by
>training - tactical ability, and an ability to implement that
>tactical brilliance in your platoon. All platoon drills
>aside -- can you and your men really fight?  I remember
>watching platoons turning into indecisive, sleep-deprived
>zombies because no one in the chain of command, officer or
>nco, could get it all together.  There's nothing more
>unnerving to me than watching a platoon in training mill
>around in my scope when a few of them are hit with MILES
>gear.  Watching the men peep their heads in and out of the
>woodline like idiots.  Officers and NCOs scratching their
>heads and having a committee meeting to decide what to do.  I
>even remember a fat platoon sergeant ambling out into the
>open, looking up and down the danger space, trying to figure
>out where I was.
>
>Not all platoons were this bad, thank God.  But there were
>some like that.  And I put the blame not only on the LT, but
>on the NCOs in the platoon.

I want to give the list a URL...  
http://www2.inc.com/incmagazine/archives/04980541.html

This is an article titled "Corps Values" and it is about the USMC method of 
developing leaders at TBS, The Basic School.  It is an excellent read, and 
gives good insight to the qualities looked for in the screening and 
evaluating process that the US Marine Corps uses in developing leaders.

Obtrav:  All Marine Officers, in the entire force, attend one of the two or 
three basic schools in the Imperium....

Greg Smith
Capt  USMC (former)




Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 08:31:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 07:31:08 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <20020422093745.58225.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422092623.045e5950@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_476139==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Co-author of Dungeons and Dragons.  TSR did their level best to erase his 
name from D&D; Arneson had to sue for royalties; they settled out of court 
back in 1979.

Victor Raymond

At 02:37 AM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to
> > Comics.
>Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember
>what he did.
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
>http://games.yahoo.com/
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor J. Raymond
Department of Sociology, ISU
vraymond@iastate.edu
--=====================_476139==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
Co-author of Dungeons and Dragons.&nbsp; TSR did their level best to
erase his name from D&amp;D; Arneson had to sue for royalties; they
settled out of court back in 1979.<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
At 02:37 AM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what
Kirby was to<br>
&gt; Comics.<br>
Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember<br>
what he did.<br><br>
__________________________________________________<br>
Do You Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more<br>
<a href="http://games.yahoo.com/" eudora="autourl">http://games.yahoo.com/</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
TML mailing list<br>
TML@travellercentral.com<br>
<a href="http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml" eudora="autourl">http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml</a></blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times">Victor J. Raymond<br>
Department of Sociology, ISU<br>
vraymond@iastate.edu</font></html>

--=====================_476139==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 08:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Apr 22 07:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> End result: no one in the nation has an income that
> is below the 
> poverty line.  Also, the amount of taxes necessary
> would not be 
> that high, especially since the entire welfare
> bureaucracy (which 
> consumes a surprisingly high percentage of the money
> allocated to 
> this sector of the government) would be instantly
> eliminated.

The only way I can see such a system working is if you
ensure that those in the system are at least
attempting to be employed.  That, then, requires that
at least some of your welfare bureaucracy remain.  I'm
not suggesting that our current system is better, just
pointing out a possible problem.

Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is 10,000Cr. 
If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away 10,000
of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick.  In
my mind, this situation would produce three types of
people:

1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
     These people continue to earn as much as they
can, either (a) hoping that maybe the government will
not need all of it to pay for those not at poverty
level and that they will get to keep the extra
(doubtful) or (b) working because they are not
concerned with the money aspect of the work, but are
motivated by something else entirely.

2.  Workers (Small Minority)
     These people work to earn poverty level, and take
the rest of the time off.  They are of the type who
believe that labor is good and want to earn for their
family.

3.  Loafers (Very Large Majority)
     These people realize that no matter how much (or
how little) they work, they will get at least enough
money to subsist and if they earn more, the government
is likely to take it all from them.  They reason that
there is no reason to work.

Although I (and probably many others) may want to
think and believe we would be in categories 1 or 2,
how many of us love our work, or feel compelled to
work enough that we could withstand the temptation to
be in category 3?  Not many, I would guess.

Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were
making an attempt at earning a living, and there is
your welfare bureaucracy.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>; from rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net on Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 09:01:26PM +0800
References: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost> <20020422202058.B3521@freeman.little-possums.net> <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020422085927.A5010@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 09:01:26PM +0800, Rachel Kronick wrote:
> 
> I have little or no problem with the government's decisions regarding 
> benefits; the problem was that Frank came very close to implicitly 
> saying that being Maori or being lesbian was a bad thing.

No--he implied that benefits solely because one is Maori or lesbian
are a bad thing.

> His derisive tone, not the government's decision, was what irked me.

The derision was for the government's decision.

Sheesh, I cannot believe I'm defending someone I've killfiled.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Exodus will never disconnect a spammer.  By the time the complaints
reach a level adequate to persuade them, the small-arms fire will
prevent their admins from reaching the servers --clifto, in nanae

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:02:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:02:21 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204221459.g3MExjP00155@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Rupert 
...
>>   Arguably this applied in certain periods of 
>> Roman history, and perhaps in some other classical
>> armies (where maybe only members of the right
>> classes might act as commanders, but far from all
>> of those eligible would fight except as ordinary
>> soldiers).
>
>True. And in theory the Athens so famour for its democracy didn't have 
>an officer class/caste, etc. However in practice only those born of 
>wealthy and influential families would be appointed, as with Rome 
>(which is why I said there weren't any I knew of).
>
>However it's probably worth noting that in these armies (especially the 
>Roman one of the late Republic and early Empire) most of the positions 
>we'd consider appropriate for officers were filled by Centurions and 
>their superiors, all of whom were 'from the ranks'. There were officers 
>above them who weren't from the ranks, but they were few and far 
>between (I seem to recall there being none until Legion level, at which 
>point there was the CO and several 'staff officers', etc.). Of course 
>the rank structure was quite flat by modern western standards, too.

  That's why I went with "arguably" - it can be presented either way,
with the big issue being whether some of those positions (eg, a Roman
centurion) were officers or NCO's. By the social standards of the
non-professionals in command (& staff) at Legion level they were only
commoners for almost all purposes, but the Legion could sooner function
without any of those patricians or equites than it could with even half
of the centurionate absent.

  Given the role of the army in political strife in the later Empire,
maybe the empire would have functioned better without any of those
classes in the legions :|

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174048.009fa870@mindspring.com>
References: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174048.009fa870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020422170728.7ba62ef6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Check. free and clear.
> 
> If I ever have to change systems, I'm posting the Beowulf mayday as my
test 
> post.

This is Free PC Beowulf
pinging anyone...
Mayday, Mayday... we are under attack...
hard drive is gone...
serial port number one not responding...
Mayday... losing system stability fast...
calling anyone... please help...
This is Free PC Beowulf

<message repeats>

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changes to First In rules
In-Reply-To: <000d01c1e7bb$b9afeea0$0f01a8c0@terry>
References: <20020316213935.3edca0b2.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <000d01c1e7bb$b9afeea0$0f01a8c0@terry>
Message-ID: <20020422171232.3a3ba7ef.jenry023@student.liu.se>

tmixon wrote:
> The ratio is wrong. The standard star distribution is 4+ on 1d6. That
> means an average of 640 systems per sector. So this one is actually 1.28
> per sector.

Oops, my mistake.

<snip>
> If you want the ratios on one per sector or one every 7.5 sectors, the
> ratios will need to change.

Right, thanks.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <F34UkSQDq1gFSlgOLN300005c8f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204221040090.12612-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Andrew MacLintock wrote:
> Obtrav:  All Marine Officers, in the entire force, attend one of the two or 
> three basic schools in the Imperium....

Is that realistic?  Given the cost of shipping a candidate across a
sector or two, I'd think the Imperium would prefer the expense of running
more schools so that one would be closer to home.
Great link, btw, though that's coming from someone who doesn't quite see
military service in his future.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420121558.A5360@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019491952.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Aha, so we have magically targeted changes in the rules of quantum
> > mechanics.
> 
> Yes, that's the one :)

Ok, just checking.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <20020422.091436.-170613.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:35:16 +1200 "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> > <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
> > >
> > > I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen 
> > > ? Drilling Platform?
> > > What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How 
> > > exactly would one> extract it from the subsurface? 
> > > Would there be any hazards?
> > 
> > One word - Praxis!
> 
> Um, sorry ?

Praxis - Klingon moon which blew up in ST-VI The Undiscovered Country.

Due to over mining, and poor safety prtocols.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019492558.5758.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
> "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:
> 
> > Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
> > eliminate poverty?
> 
> The government defines a poverty line.  People at and near that 
> point pay no income taxes.  Anyone with an income greater than 
> that pays a graduated tax, depending upon how far above it they 
> are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the 
> government (much like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any 
> money in) to give them money equal to being at the poverty line.  

Not quite; one idea behind negative income tax as I'm aware of it is that it's
supposed to eliminate the welfare effect where by getting a job, your income
doesn't improve.  Thus, if the poverty line is $10,000/year and you made less
than that, tax would be something like 50% of income - $5,000, so if you made
$2,000/year, your taxes would be -$4,000/year.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204221040090.12612-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019492780.113.ajackson@ping>

Gregory Carl Kettler writes:
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Andrew MacLintock wrote:
> > Obtrav:  All Marine Officers, in the entire force, attend one of the two
> > or  three basic schools in the Imperium....
> 
> Is that realistic? 

Sure.  It's a distributed school; you just have to realize that academy at
Regina and the academy at Dingir are the same school ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Frank Pitt wrote:

> Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> 
> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
> 
> Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
> <grin>
> 
I'd have to agree.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422085927.A5010@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220948240.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Rachel wrote:
>
> > His derisive tone, not the government's decision, was what irked me.
> 
> The derision was for the government's decision.

I thought so, too.  You don't get much more anti-homophobic than I am, but
I don't think being gay should get you money from the government.  
 
> Sheesh, I cannot believe I'm defending someone I've killfiled.

I hate it when that happens too, Robert.

Kiri :) 

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <OF5BF2A073.349D1856-ON85256BA3.005C2CDE@pheaa.org>





>> Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
>> > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
>>
>> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
>>
>> Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
>> <grin>
>>
>I'd have to agree.

Please forgive my stupidity but who or what is Shooter?







From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 11:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Mon Apr 22 10:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1ea22$d25c5a60$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Paul Walker
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 07:41
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] RAH and libertarianism

Although I (and probably many others) may want to
think and believe we would be in categories 1 or 2,
how many of us love our work, or feel compelled to
work enough that we could withstand the temptation to
be in category 3?  Not many, I would guess.

Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were
making an attempt at earning a living, and there is
your welfare bureaucracy.

Paul
------------------------------------------------------------

Put me in group 3.  Its not so much I hate working, its that nothing you
do nowadays makes any difference in your employment.  I've worked for
Kyocera, SHE, Hewlett-Packard, Agilent and AT&T and they are all the
same - use you until they no longer feel they need you, then dump you.

Yes, I am currently unemployed again.  AT&T a couple of years back was
worried that a rival ISP was coming in and they knew their customer
service sucked.  So they started hiring in-house technicians and toned
down their contractors.  Well Comcast basically merged with AT&T and
Time/Warner has no plans to compete here.

AT&T found itself sitting on a de facto monopoly, at least in the
Vancouver/Portland area, so they took it upon themselves to be rid of
their in-house employees and went back to the lack-luster contractors.
I and 15 of my co-workers found themselves not laid off but outright
fired for all sorts of stupid reasons.

I gave this company 110% like I always do as an employee, but here I am
again, unemployed.  There were days I started at 7am and got home after
midnight because I put the customers first and myself last.  Now I have
nothing to show for it.  HP and Agilent did similar things but at least
had the decency to lay us off.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do now with the job market so already
over-bloated with laid off workers.  I'm just tired of working for
companies that have absolutely no loyalty to their employees.

If anyone in the Portland/Vancouver area that is on this list hears
about any job that could use someone good with computers or telecom,
please email me off-list.

Thanks!

( j-man@attbi.com )






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 11:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr 22 10:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220948240.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <20020422085927.A5010@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422104155.009f3ec0@mindspring.com>

At 09:49 AM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:

>I thought so, too.  You don't get much more anti-homophobic than I am, but
>I don't think being gay should get you money from the government.

I don't know, the way some of the RR talks, we might be able to file for 
disability!

ObTrav: A world sees some common trait as being a horrible disadvantage 
(being left-handed, for ex) left handers are offered all sorts of 
government assistance, programs.. the good times end when the ship tries to 
leave.. the pilot is left-handed, and under law cannot operate the ship in 
the planet's airspace...

-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 12:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 22 11:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422104155.009f3ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDBDMAA.tml@downport.com>

You have that exactly backwards. The LL say it's physical, which might fall
under the ADA if you thinks it is handicapping you in some way. The RR (and
the Pope) say it is an act of the will, meaning sin.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
>
> I don't know, the way some of the RR talks, we might be able to file for
> disability!
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 13:42:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 12:42:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
References: <F262jQlc7vtdFq7ImxU00001228@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC46749.40007@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     Yet another example of typical Whipsnadian brain flatulence.  I ask 
> the kind folk of the TML to contact me off-List and then neglect to 
> provide the address.  Did I mention that my head comes to a point?
>     Thanks again for your help.

Uhhh...at least in _my_ mail client, Larsen's e-mail address

grote1731@hotmail.com

Is shown on each of his posts to the list...


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 13:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421173609.009ec3e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC468A1.8050409@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at the start of 
> the road march, how much will it weigh after 25 miles cross-country 
> through Korea in July?

Why the same as an unladen kitten perched on your chest, asleep.

5.67 tons. ;-)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
Message-ID: <200204222013.g3MKDLi02407@mailbag.com>

Hello all,

My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete the 
process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be spending the evening 
of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San Francisco. If there are any 
fellow Travellers who would care to get to gether with me that evening for beer 
and/or conversation, please let me know. 

Thanks!

William




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <DAV57DRtBBnmIahhPyO0001abc4@hotmail.com>

I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
before.

Gygax is very much to gaming as Kirby was to comics.


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV57DRtBBnmIahhPyO0001abc4@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_91614101==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
>growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
>before.

Mr. Weiss,

Without putting too fine a point on it, Mr. Gygax and TSR also ended up in 
litigation with Mr. Arneson about authorship and royalties about D&D - 
despite the fact that Arneson originated the concept and was listed as a 
co-author on the cover of the original game.  If that is "improving on what 
had come before" forgive me if I want to check to see if I have all my 
fingers when we're done shaking hands.

Even if you buy the argument that Gygax was somehow responsible for the 
"success" of D&D, you could build a case that TSR missed opportunity after 
opportunity to make it even bigger.  Or merely note the fact that the 
company was run into the ground, not once, but TWICE, despite their 
"success."  Add to that the antagonistic relationship that Gygax had with a 
great number of fans - many of whom are now successful game designers in 
their own right - and these conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)

To each their own, Mr. Weiss.

Victor Raymond


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_91614101==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I wasn't aware that Arneson made
D&amp;D a million dollar industry with still<br>
growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had
come<br>
before.</blockquote><br>
Mr. Weiss,<br><br>
Without putting too fine a point on it, Mr. Gygax and TSR also ended up
in litigation with Mr. Arneson about authorship and royalties about
D&amp;D - despite the fact that Arneson originated the concept and was
listed as a co-author on the cover of the original game.&nbsp; If that is
&quot;improving on what had come before&quot; forgive me if I want to
check to see if I have all my fingers when we're done shaking
hands.<br><br>
Even if you buy the argument that Gygax was somehow responsible for the
&quot;success&quot; of D&amp;D, you could build a case that TSR missed
opportunity after opportunity to make it even bigger.&nbsp; Or merely
note the fact that the company was run into the ground, not once, but
TWICE, despite their &quot;success.&quot;&nbsp; Add to that the
antagonistic relationship that Gygax had with a great number of fans -
many of whom are now successful game designers in their own right - and
these conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)<br><br>
To each their own, Mr. Weiss.<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_91614101==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422190106.A61D4279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote:

> --- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > End result: no one in the nation has an income that
> > is below the 
> > poverty line.  Also, the amount of taxes necessary
> > would not be 
> > that high, especially since the entire welfare
> > bureaucracy (which 
> > consumes a surprisingly high percentage of the money
> > allocated to 
> > this sector of the government) would be instantly
> > eliminated.
> 
> The only way I can see such a system working is if you
> ensure that those in the system are at least
> attempting to be employed.  That, then, requires that
> at least some of your welfare bureaucracy remain.  I'm
> not suggesting that our current system is better, just
> pointing out a possible problem.
> 
> Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is 10,000Cr. 
> If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away 10,000
> of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick.  In
> my mind, this situation would produce three types of
> people:

<snip> 

That would *only* be true if the median income was at the poverty 
line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.  The incentive to 
work would be have an income greater than the poverty line.  Most 
people want this and the percentage of people below the poverty 
line honestly isn't that high.  If the poverty live was 10,000 Cr, then 
someone earning 20,000 Cr would be far more likely to pay no 
more than 20% of their income in taxes, resulting in a net income 
of 16,000 Cr.  Assuming a wealth structure like that in the US, then 
if there was a reasonable tex system (ie one where the ultra-
wealthy could not use numerous loop holes to avoid paying any 
taxes) then that 20% could likely be reduced to 15% (for 20,000 
Cr), resulting in a net income of 17,000 Cr.  Those extra 6,000 or 
7,000 Cr can buy lots of nice things and many people will think 
them worth the effort.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019508300.7419.ajackson@ping>

For reference on negative income tax:

http://www.indiapolicy.org/lists/india_policy/2000/Jun/msg00007.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:48:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:48:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
Message-ID: <20020422.134355.-170613.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

William

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:13:20 GMT wlewis@mailbag.com writes:
> Hello all,
> 
> My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to
complete the process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be
spending the evening of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San
Francisco. If there are any  fellow Travellers who would care to get to
gether with me that evening for beer and/or conversation, please let me
know. 
> 
> Thanks!

Congrats!!!

I pray your journey be safe, productive, and fulfilling to you, your
wife, and especially your new baby boy.

My best to you all. The world would improve greatly if it followed your
example.

Chaplain Bari

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV84RtKdLWPo08EOTq0001acff@hotmail.com>

Mr. Raymond,

Without putting too fine a point on it either, you seem to be confusing a
number of business policies more properly attributed to other people at TSR,
who among other things wound up unsucessfully suing Mr. Gygax over the game
he created upon being forced out of TSR, with the actions of Mr. Gygax
himself.
You seem to wish to ignore that Mr. Arneson had nothing to do with
expansions of the game following the initial publication.
As for the running of the company into the ground, this very specifically
happened when people other than Mr. Gygax were running the company.
Concerning his antagonistic relationship with fans as well as game
designers, from what I've witnessed this is a combination of Mr. Gygax being
right about a number of things he said, and some rather intense jealously.
More than one would be fanboy or sycophant has tried sucking up and been
rebuffed for getting something wrong and subsequently become an ardent
internet defamer of Mr. Gygax and his works. As well, the professional
jealousy of game designers whose command of the English language resembles
that of a 3 year old when compared to Mr. Gygax, not to mention the truly
questionable quality of some of their designs, should be highly suspect to
anyone with a discerning eye.

Is Gary a perfect person, always polite, and always humble about his
accomplishments?
No.
Do I agree with everything he has ever said?
No.
Did he define multiple aspects of a hobby genre like Jack Kirby defined
comics?
Definitely.

To each their own indeed. And for me, that is the most definitely Gary
Gygax, whether he is sending me blistering flames or fullsome praises.


Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 01:32:49PM -0700
References: <20020422190106.A61D4279B9@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020422145517.A5794@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 01:32:49PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> That would *only* be true if the median income was at the poverty
> line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.  The incentive
> to work would be have an income greater than the poverty line.

I believe it was meant as a reductio ad absurdem.  That is, by making
x=100, it demonstrated the worst possible case.  Even if the tax rate
on earnings over the poverty line is only 1%, then for every $100 more
of work I put in I only get $99.  As the rate goes up, so does the
disincentive.  The practical effect is that less work gets done than
ideally should.

This is a problem with any tax, and is insurmountable.  There are
other, worse problems with no taxes.

> If the poverty live was 10,000 Cr, then someone earning 20,000 Cr
> would be far more likely to pay no more than 20% of their income in
> taxes, resulting in a net income of 16,000 Cr.

A net income of 16,000 Cr for 20,000 Cr worth of work.

> Those extra 6,000 or 7,000 Cr can buy lots of nice things and many
> people will think them worth the effort.

But is it worth 10,000 Cr worth of work for 6,000 Cr worth of credits?

I'm not anti-taxes; they're a necessary evil.  But it's important to
realise the very bad efects taxation has on an economy.  Ideally
taxation (and therefore, the public sector) would be limited to a few
percent of GDP, so as to minimise the deleterious economic effects
thereof.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A person who's interested only in books doesn't need other people...
                           --Arturo Perez-Reverte, The Club Dumas

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:00:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:00:24 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <3CC478B9.9010306@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Victor Jason Raymond wrote:
> At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
> 
>> I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
>> growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
>> before.

snip


> Add to that the antagonistic relationship that Gygax had 
> with a great number of fans - many of whom are now successful game 
> designers in their own right - and these conclusions look pretty dice-y. 
> (so to speak)

Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on this) 
  had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
role-playing industry.

Very likely there would have been no card came industry ("Magic-the 
gathering of spare cash", etc)

It was a runaway success that paved the way for everything else since, 
TSR mis-steps or not.

(Yes, I know it's runaway success was proof there was a huge untapped 
market for it out there, but that is the nature of runaway 
successes....'Trivial Pursuit' was also a runaway success, despite a 
host of similar games like it on the market in the past that didn't take 
off.)

I myself was introduced to Traveller as '...like D&D, only SF, with 
starships and fusion guns...'

Like it or not, the *one* thing that springs to the average person's 
mind when they heard the term 'role playing game' is D&D.

Well, that and '..sallow, spindly geek with no life..', but I digress...

(and I'm not sallow, and (alas) long passed the 'spindly' stage...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
References: <200204222013.g3MKDLi02407@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <3CC479F7.6090906@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

wlewis@mailbag.com wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete the 
> process to adopt a baby boy. 

Congratulations!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <3CC478B9.9010306@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

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At 01:55 PM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Victor Jason Raymond wrote:
>>At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>>I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
>>>growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
>>>before.
>
>snip
>
>
>>Add to that the antagonistic relationship that Gygax had with a great 
>>number of fans - many of whom are now successful game designers in their 
>>own right - and these conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)
>
>Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on 
>this)  had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
>role-playing industry.

<nods>

Dear Bruce (and an aside to Mr. Weiss),

I would definitely agree with you about this.  My point is that if you 
should praise Gygax, you ought to also praise David L. Arneson, as well - 
it's only fair.  Gygax wouldn't have had D&D if Arneson had not started 
doing Blackmoor.  And there is a fair bit to point out that isn't so 
praiseworthy.

Victor


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

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<html>
At 01:55 PM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Victor Jason Raymond wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you
wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I wasn't aware that Arneson made
D&amp;D a million dollar industry with still<br>
growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had
come<br>
before.</blockquote></blockquote><br>
snip<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Add to that the antagonistic
relationship that Gygax had with a great number of fans - many of whom
are now successful game designers in their own right - and these
conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)</blockquote><br>
Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on
this)&nbsp; had there been no D&amp;D, there very likely would have been
*no* role-playing industry.</blockquote><br>
&lt;nods&gt;<br><br>
Dear Bruce (and an aside to Mr. Weiss),<br><br>
I would definitely agree with you about this.&nbsp; My point is that if
you should praise Gygax, you ought to also praise David L. Arneson, as
well - it's only fair.&nbsp; Gygax wouldn't have had D&amp;D if Arneson
had not started doing Blackmoor.&nbsp; And there is a fair bit to point
out that isn't so praiseworthy.<br><br>
Victor<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:20:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:20:29 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <200204222116.ETY00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip Gygax stuff>

Well, the basic lesson that I see in the whole Gygax thing
is never, ever run a company and staff it with your friends.  
I did that with my own software startup, and it was the worst 
mistake I ever made in my life.

Either that, or I'm not a very good judge of character.  But 
to be on the safe side, don't make your friends your business 
partners.

Greed is a curious thing, and most people are not as immune 
to it as they might imagine.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV84RtKdLWPo08EOTq0001acff@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161637.04bc1d60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

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At 04:53 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Mr. Raymond,
>
>Without putting too fine a point on it either, you seem to be confusing a
>number of business policies more properly attributed to other people at TSR,
>who among other things wound up unsucessfully suing Mr. Gygax over the game
>he created upon being forced out of TSR, with the actions of Mr. Gygax
>himself.

Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the 
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.  Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR when Mr. 
Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and co-authorship.

>You seem to wish to ignore that Mr. Arneson had nothing to do with
>expansions of the game following the initial publication.

Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and co-authorship.  TSR 
and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.

>As for the running of the company into the ground, this very specifically
>happened when people other than Mr. Gygax were running the company.

I will grant you that.  The Blume Brothers did not exactly paint themselves 
in glory.

>Concerning his antagonistic relationship with fans as well as game
>designers, from what I've witnessed this is a combination of Mr. Gygax being
>right about a number of things he said, and some rather intense jealously.

Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with 
a straight face.

>More than one would be fanboy or sycophant has tried sucking up and been
>rebuffed for getting something wrong and subsequently become an ardent
>internet defamer of Mr. Gygax and his works.

Not the people I am referring to.  Do keep in mind the dispute between TSR 
and Chaosium regarding the Lovecraftian Mythos, etc. (which involved the 
Lovecraft estate and Mr. Moorcock's solicitors), just as an example of 
something other than your generalization.

>As well, the professional
>jealousy of game designers whose command of the English language resembles
>that of a 3 year old when compared to Mr. Gygax, not to mention the truly
>questionable quality of some of their designs, should be highly suspect to
>anyone with a discerning eye.

Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?


>Is Gary a perfect person, always polite, and always humble about his
>accomplishments?
>No.
>Do I agree with everything he has ever said?
>No.
>Did he define multiple aspects of a hobby genre like Jack Kirby defined
>comics?
>Definitely.

And this is where we must part company.

Cheers!

Victor Raymond


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

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<html>
At 04:53 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Mr. Raymond,<br><br>
Without putting too fine a point on it either, you seem to be confusing
a<br>
number of business policies more properly attributed to other people at
TSR,<br>
who among other things wound up unsucessfully suing Mr. Gygax over the
game<br>
he created upon being forced out of TSR, with the actions of Mr.
Gygax<br>
himself.</blockquote><br>
Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.&nbsp; Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR
when Mr. Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and
co-authorship.&nbsp; <br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>You seem to wish to ignore that Mr.
Arneson had nothing to do with<br>
expansions of the game following the initial
publication.</blockquote><br>
Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and
co-authorship.&nbsp; TSR and Arneson settled out of court for a
considerable sum.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As for the running of the company
into the ground, this very specifically<br>
happened when people other than Mr. Gygax were running the
company.</blockquote><br>
I will grant you that.&nbsp; The Blume Brothers did not exactly paint
themselves in glory.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Concerning his antagonistic
relationship with fans as well as game<br>
designers, from what I've witnessed this is a combination of Mr. Gygax
being<br>
right about a number of things he said, and some rather intense
jealously.</blockquote><br>
Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again
with a straight face.&nbsp; <br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>More than one would be fanboy or
sycophant has tried sucking up and been<br>
rebuffed for getting something wrong and subsequently become an
ardent<br>
internet defamer of Mr. Gygax and his works.</blockquote><br>
Not the people I am referring to.&nbsp; Do keep in mind the dispute
between TSR and Chaosium regarding the Lovecraftian Mythos, etc. (which
involved the Lovecraft estate and Mr. Moorcock's solicitors), just as an
example of something other than your generalization.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As well, the professional<br>
jealousy of game designers whose command of the English language
resembles<br>
that of a 3 year old when compared to Mr. Gygax, not to mention the
truly<br>
questionable quality of some of their designs, should be highly suspect
to<br>
anyone with a discerning eye.</blockquote><br>
Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Is Gary a perfect person, always
polite, and always humble about his<br>
accomplishments?<br>
No.<br>
Do I agree with everything he has ever said?<br>
No.<br>
Did he define multiple aspects of a hobby genre like Jack Kirby
defined<br>
comics?<br>
Definitely.</blockquote><br>
And this is where we must part company.<br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_94973383==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Neural Guns
Message-ID: <2237.1019490155@www44.gmx.net>

Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen,

I've got questions regarding Neural Weaponry.

All my knowledge is based on the few lines of Weapons Description and the
two inserts into the Weapons Price Table in the Imperial Encyclopedia/MT.

The Stats I could work out are...
Neural Pistol-16
no AmmoNotes, ? Rds, Pen/Att 10/-, special (but known) Dmg, MaxRange Long,
no AutofireTargets, no DangerSpace, Low Signature, Low Recoil, Difficulty as
Handgun
Neural Rifle-16
no AmmoNotes, ? Rds, Pen/Att 10/-, special (but known) Dmg, MaxRange Long,
no AutofireTargets, no Danger Space, LowSignature, Low Recoil, Difficulty as
Rifle
...just to show, that I thought before consulting TML

So now :

Are there any 'official' stats/rules regarding neural guns (probably hidden
in some secret supplement I don't know - there are many of these)?

My problem lies in (s.a.) ? Rds - How much ammunition does a neural pistol
or rifle pack? I think it would need a power pack, as energy weapons, which
would correspond roughly with the ammunition price and weight stated in the
weapons price table(?) How many shots per pack? Are there integral (or only
integral) versions, and how much shots would these have?

I'd be glad, if you shared your knowledge or opinion,
bye, Sebastian

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:31:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:31:38 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <200204222116.ETY00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422162357.04be58d0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

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At 05:16 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
><snip Gygax stuff>
>
>Well, the basic lesson that I see in the whole Gygax thing
>is never, ever run a company and staff it with your friends.

Very very very true.  One thing that a friend who grew up in Lake Geneva 
once told me was that Don Kay (the "K" in the original "G/K" logo for TSR) 
was the only fellow that Mr. Gygax would listen to back then, in the case 
of disputes.  Kay died rather suddenly (see his obit in Strategic Review 
#2) - it would have been very very interesting to see how things might have 
turned out had he lived.

>
>I did that with my own software startup, and it was the worst
>mistake I ever made in my life.
>
>Either that, or I'm not a very good judge of character.  But
>to be on the safe side, don't make your friends your business
>partners.

Good advice.

There's gotta be an ObTrav for this - perhaps never hire your friends as 
crew for your Free Trader?  (But that would undermine most parties of 
adventurers!  Or is this merely an observation that the sorts of trouble 
the average group gets into is merely to be expected?  Oh, the 
possibilities....:))

Victor

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_95312126==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 05:16 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&lt;snip Gygax stuff&gt;<br><br>
Well, the basic lesson that I see in the whole Gygax thing<br>
is never, ever run a company and staff it with your friends.
</blockquote><br>
Very very very true.&nbsp; One thing that a friend who grew up in Lake
Geneva once told me was that Don Kay (the &quot;K&quot; in the original
&quot;G/K&quot; logo for TSR) was the only fellow that Mr. Gygax would
listen to back then, in the case of disputes.&nbsp; Kay died rather
suddenly (see his obit in Strategic Review #2) - it would have been very
very interesting to see how things might have turned out had he
lived.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&nbsp;<br>
I did that with my own software startup, and it was the worst <br>
mistake I ever made in my life.<br><br>
Either that, or I'm not a very good judge of character.&nbsp; But <br>
to be on the safe side, don't make your friends your business <br>
partners.</blockquote><br>
Good advice.<br><br>
There's gotta be an ObTrav for this - perhaps never hire your friends as
crew for your Free Trader?&nbsp; (But that would undermine most parties
of adventurers!&nbsp; Or is this merely an observation that the sorts of
trouble the average group gets into is merely to be expected?&nbsp; Oh,
the possibilities....:))<br><br>
Victor<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_95312126==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:34:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:34:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
> 1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
> (b) working because they are not concerned with the money aspect of
> the work, but are motivated by something else entirely.

Put me down as a 1b, shifting very rapidly into 3 due to my employer's
incompetence.


> 3.  Loafers (Very Large Majority)
>      These people realize that no matter how much (or how little)
> they work, they will get at least enough money to subsist

... true already in many countries ...


> and if they earn more, the government is likely to take it all from
> them.

More true under the current system (at least in Aus) than under the
proposed one.  Under the proposed system, if you work more you *will*
earn more, as opposed to Australia's current system where you can
often earn less.  Still, even Australia has unemployment less than
10%, most of it transient.  High, but hardly the "Very Large
Majority".


> Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were making an
> attempt at earning a living,

The fact that you get to increase your income substantially if you
work is reason enough.  As Mr. Uhl points out, you won't keep 100% of
your income, which is true for any government that imposes taxation.
It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
some part-time workers.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
In-Reply-To: <200204222013.g3MKDLi02407@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422144908.009e84c0@mindspring.com>

At 08:13 PM 4/22/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete 
>the
>process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be spending the evening
>of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San Francisco. If there are any
>fellow Travellers who would care to get to gether with me that evening for 
>beer
>and/or conversation, please let me know.

There are a few of us about..

Contact me by personal email and we'll work something out.  I'll forward 
this to the Traveller in SF list.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

>> and if they earn more, the government is likely to take it all from
>> them.
>
>More true under the current system (at least in Aus) than under the
>proposed one.  Under the proposed system, if you work more you *will*
>earn more, as opposed to Australia's current system where you can
>often earn less.  Still, even Australia has unemployment less than
>10%, most of it transient.  High, but hardly the "Very Large
>Majority".

But that is 10% of the working population. Add in people on disability
and women who stay home taking care of kids (which is a full-time job,
but means that they have to be supported form somewhere) and the
unemployed suddenly rises dramatically. In Norway for example we
have almost 1 million people (out of 4.5 million population) on
disability (full time and part time). And that is what is breaking
our backs. Most of those people would be able to work full time
but since they can get away with a check from the state due to
disability......

>> Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were making an
>> attempt at earning a living,
>
>The fact that you get to increase your income substantially if you
>work is reason enough.  As Mr. Uhl points out, you won't keep 100% of
>your income, which is true for any government that imposes taxation.
>It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
>some part-time workers.

True, so true. But the wierd thing is that those people have to get
that money back from the state somehow, as social security or what ever
to survive. It's the state taking money and then giving it back again!

Tommy Grav


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <20020422.182803.-145167.1.Knightsky@juno.com>


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Kiri Aradia Morgan
<tiamat@tsoft.com> writes:
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Frank Pitt wrote:
> 
> > Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> > > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> > 
> > Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
> > 
> > Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
> > <grin>
> > 
> I'd have to agree.

Seconded.

                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:36:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:36:46 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <20020422.182803.-145167.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:50:37 -0400 "William Lane" <wlane@aessuccess.org>
writes:
> 
> >> Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> >> > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> >>
> >> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
> >>
> >> Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
> >> <grin>
> >>
> >I'd have to agree.
> 
> Please forgive my stupidity but who or what is Shooter?

Jim Shooter, editor-in-chief of Marvel Comics during the late 70s & early
80's.  Not without his virtues and talents, he is nonetheless known for
his heavy-handed, sledgehammer approach to acting as editor, and has
managed to alienate to this day many of the creative people in the comics
industry. 



                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"







________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:39:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:39:37 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on 
> this) had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
> role-playing industry.

I'm not certain I agree with this.  I've seen different accounts of
various proto-RPGs pre-1973 (and unfortunately, no, I don't have sources
to quote at the moment - sorry); the idea for a RPG did not spring solely
from Arnenson and Gygax... they were simply the first to *market* the
idea. 

I believe that RPGs *would* have eventually been published by other
people even if D&D had never existed, they would have simply appeared a
few years later.  And... if D&D had not been the first, then perhaps the
rest of the industry would not have needed to spend so much effort the
last 3 decades trying desperately to get away from the various clunky
aspects of D&D that Gygax pushed as being "the one true way" of
roleplaying...

> Very likely there would have been no card came industry ("Magic-the 
> gathering of spare cash", etc)

And this is a bad thing HOW...?  ;-)


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:52:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:52:11 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204221544240.16983-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 knightsky@juno.com wrote:

> > Very likely there would have been no card came industry ("Magic-the 
> > gathering of spare cash", etc)
> 
> And this is a bad thing HOW...?  ;-)

Well, the introduction of those awful CCG's freed up a lot of my evenings,
(because my gaming group turned into Magic zombies) and I got married
shortly after that...

yeah, right.

Nuke 'em.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:56:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:56:07 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <200204222116.ETY00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204221546070.16983-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Greed is a curious thing, and most people are not as immune 
> to it as they might imagine.

No, they aren't, and all kinds of human emotions that don't obviously have
any connection to the issue are tied up in money and business.  Doing
business together will either solidify or completely destroy a family, a
friendship, a marriage, or a lovers' bond.  It is like sleeping with your
best friend after 10+ years of platonic friendship; the reward if you
succeed and it all works out is truly wonderful, but the risk is your
heart and your spirit, and braver souls than me or thee have declined to
take it.

Kiri ^_^ (who worked on a small press magazine with two men, best friends
who are still best friends-- one of whom is now her ex-fiance and the
other her ex-husband, and still adores them both-- from the other side of
the continent.)

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>
References: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net> <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <20020423090608.A5160@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tim wrote:
[...regarding "group 3"...]
> > Still, even Australia has unemployment less than 10%, most of it
> >transient.  High, but hardly the "Very Large Majority".

Tommy Grav wrote:
> But that is 10% of the working population. Add in people on
> disability

... who are already being paid for by the government anyway, so no
extra cost there, and most of whom wouldn't be able to work if they
wanted to.  Hence the majority of them are not in group 3.


> and women who stay home taking care of kids

At the moment, they're already surviving.  Either by husbands (who
hence have a lower disposable income) or by the government.  Either
way, they're already accounted for.  They are also certainly not in
group 3!


> >It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
> >some part-time workers.
> 
> True, so true. But the wierd thing is that those people have to get
> that money back from the state somehow,

No, they don't.  That's the point; it's the ones who don't work at all
who get the money from the state.  I'll give an example:

An unemployed person (e.g, me) got about A$170/week in direct cash
benefits, about $40/week in rent assistance, paid 50% less for public
transport, up to 90% less on medicines, and further 10-50% concessions
on a range of things as diverse as internet access, movie tickets,
house insurance, power, and telephone bills.  His net income was $210
per week.  (If this person had a child, he/she would get the full
child care subsidy, quite a substantial amount.  But I'm not
personally familiar with exactly how much so I'll leave it out).

Suppose he works part time.  His employment income is say A$300 per
week, but the government takes income taxes of about $50/week from
that.  He no longer receives unemployment benefits, rent assistance,
and would receive greatly reduced child care allowance (again, leaving
it out due to lack of personal experience).  He pays full price for
public transport, various utility bills, medical expenses, and other
things adding up to about $70/week.  He no longer receives any rent
assistance.  After living expenses, his net income has dropped by $30
compared with unemployment.

So for $300 worth of work (about 15-20 hours), he nets $30 *less* than
if he was unemployed, thus keeping -10% of the wages from his extra
effort.  That's still enough to survive on, but *extremely*
discouraging.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 17:19:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:19:40 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CC499EA.1020901@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>>Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on 
>>this) had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
>>role-playing industry.
> 
> 
> I'm not certain I agree with this.  I've seen different accounts of
> various proto-RPGs pre-1973 (and unfortunately, no, I don't have sources
> to quote at the moment - sorry); the idea for a RPG did not spring solely
> from Arnenson and Gygax... they were simply the first to *market* the
> idea. 

I never said they were the only source, merely the first _wildly 
successful_ one. Quality is no guarantee of success, witness MS Windows 
and AOL.

Neither of them were the first in their genre, nor even the best, but 
there is little doubt that they are the 800 pound gorillas of the market.

D&D may not have been pure in a mechanical sense, but like BASIC, and 
'You have SPAM!' it is now the de-facto standard of comparison..the 
reason it got there is because it was 'the fustest with the mostest'.

(says an old-timer who remembers back when 'September on the Net' 
actually meant that it was, indeed, September...ahh those halcyon 
pre-AOL, pre-Prodigy, pre-Compuserv days...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 17:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Product Announcement
Message-ID: <016701c1ea59$53179d50$969393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0162_01C1EA61.9C2DD060
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Just a quick note to inform the Traveller community that we (Quiklink =
Interactive) will be putting the first "LBB PDF" up for sale in a few =
days.

This will be "Traveller's Aide #1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space"

Designed specifically for use with CT and T20, most of the information =
within is compatible with any version of Traveller; stats can be =
converted from CT to other rules sets as necessary.

Contents include:

- Extra combat rules
- Details of weapon scanner technologies and how to beat them
- A selection of large and small arms firms within the Imperium
- Some unique or special weapons
- The Imperial Weapons Permit System,=20
- A comprehensive guide to smallarms and melee weapons, with compiled CT =
and T20 data tables for all the weapons listed.

More news is available on the Quiklink website: =
http://www.travellerrpg.com/


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses

------=_NextPart_000_0162_01C1EA61.9C2DD060
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just&nbsp;a quick note to inform the =
Traveller=20
community that we (Quiklink Interactive) will be putting the first "LBB =
PDF" up=20
for sale in a few days.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This will be "Traveller's Aide #1: =
Personal Weapons=20
of Charted Space"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Designed specifically for use with CT =
and T20, most=20
of the information within is compatible with any version of Traveller; =
stats can=20
be converted from CT to other rules sets as necessary.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Contents include:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Extra combat rules</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Details of weapon scanner =
technologies and how to=20
beat them</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- A selection of large and small arms =
firms within=20
the Imperium</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Some unique or special =
weapons</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- The Imperial Weapons Permit System, =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-&nbsp;A comprehensive guide to =
smallarms and melee=20
weapons, with compiled CT and T20 data tables for all the weapons=20
listed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>More news is available on the Quiklink =
website: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.travellerrpg.com/">http://www.travellerrpg.com/</A></F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0162_01C1EA61.9C2DD060--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:06:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:06:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Neural Guns
References: <20020422220007.4ED0F279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC4A483.8DEF4B63@earthlink.net>

S.Feige

> Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
> I've got questions regarding Neural Weaponry.
> 
> All my knowledge is based on the few lines of Weapons Description and the
> two inserts into the Weapons Price Table in the Imperial Encyclopedia/MT.
> 
> The Stats I could work out are...

Even though someone's probably already answered your questions, I
thought I'd post anyway. Apologies for any waste of bandwidth.

Challenge #46 has them worked up in detail for MT. The specs are:

Neural weapons have 2 settings: stun and kill.

Stun will inflict as many damage points as necessary to render
the target unconscious, up to the weapon's limit.

Kill inflicts the full damage pont capability, whatever the
target's condition.

Should a mishap occur (marginal success), roll 2D on the Mishap
Table. Whether the damage modifier is added or subtracted can
be determined randomly or using Murphy's Law. If the intention
was to stun, increase damage; if the intention was to kill,
decrease damage.

TL   Type           Psi-Pen   DMs             Dam   Difficulty
---------------------------------------------------------------
16   Neural Rifle     10      As direct fire   7    Rifle
16   Neural Pistol    10      As direct fire   5    Handgun


David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
References: <20020422190106.A61D4279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002601c1ea5d$32d89f40$d3b18b90@computer>

> From: Steven Hudson
>   Given the role of the army in political strife in the later Empire,
> maybe the empire would have functioned better without any of those
> classes in the legions :|

Look how well it worked when they replaced them with barbarians.  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <200204221459.g3MExjP00155@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3CC55510.8412.A77E03@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002 at 7:58, Steven Hudson wrote:
>   That's why I went with "arguably" - it can be presented either way,
> with the big issue being whether some of those positions (eg, a Roman
> centurion) were officers or NCO's. By the social standards of the
> non-professionals in command (& staff) at Legion level they were only
> commoners for almost all purposes, but the Legion could sooner function
> without any of those patricians or equites than it could with even half
> of the centurionate absent.
> 
>   Given the role of the army in political strife in the later Empire,
> maybe the empire would have functioned better without any of those
> classes in the legions :|

Well the importance of even centurions in much of that strife argues 
for them being considered officers - very few coups in the modern world 
are started and managed by sergeants.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:38:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:38:29 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC55510.9619.A77EB7@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 7:29, Timothy Little wrote:

> The fact that you get to increase your income substantially if you
> work is reason enough.  As Mr. Uhl points out, you won't keep 100% of
> your income, which is true for any government that imposes taxation.
> It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
> some part-time workers.

Doesn't quite happen in NZ, but even ignoring GST (being a sales tax 
it's relatively invisible most of the time) the effective tax rate for 
being a low-income part-time worker can be up around 85%.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:41:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:41:12 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002 at 7:41, Paul Walker wrote:
> Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is 10,000Cr. 
> If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away 10,000
> of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick.  In
> my mind, this situation would produce three types of
> people:

You're assuming that 50% of the population does no work, here.
 
> 1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
>      These people continue to earn as much as they
> can, either (a) hoping that maybe the government will
> not need all of it to pay for those not at poverty
> level and that they will get to keep the extra
> (doubtful) or (b) working because they are not
> concerned with the money aspect of the work, but are
> motivated by something else entirely.

Why is it doubtful?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423090608.A5160@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <3CC55776.26351.B0DA34@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 9:06, Timothy Little wrote:
> An unemployed person (e.g, me) got about A$170/week in direct cash
> benefits, about $40/week in rent assistance, paid 50% less for public
> transport, up to 90% less on medicines, and further 10-50% concessions
> on a range of things as diverse as internet access, movie tickets,
> house insurance, power, and telephone bills.  His net income was $210
> per week.  (If this person had a child, he/she would get the full
> child care subsidy, quite a substantial amount.  But I'm not
> personally familiar with exactly how much so I'll leave it out).

Now I know why New Zealanders were so keen on going to Aussie to loaf 
round on the dole and surf (or so the Aussie government would like 
everyone to think). Here the base rate for an over 25 is (IIRC) NZ$157 
per week, rent support of about 1/3 of your rent. There's also 
considerable subsidy on your medicines (over and above what everyone 
gets), and some on public transport, but that's about it.
 
> Suppose he works part time.  His employment income is say A$300 per
> week, but the government takes income taxes of about $50/week from
> that.  He no longer receives unemployment benefits, rent assistance,
> and would receive greatly reduced child care allowance (again, leaving
> it out due to lack of personal experience).  He pays full price for
> public transport, various utility bills, medical expenses, and other
> things adding up to about $70/week.  He no longer receives any rent
> assistance.  After living expenses, his net income has dropped by $30
> compared with unemployment.
> 
> So for $300 worth of work (about 15-20 hours), he nets $30 *less* than
> if he was unemployed, thus keeping -10% of the wages from his extra
> effort.  That's still enough to survive on, but *extremely*
> discouraging.

We just have a (low) point after which you lose 70% of your dole for 
each dollar (gross) that you earn. You also lose the rent assistance at 
a smaller rate at the same time, and IIRC that starts as soon as you 
earn any money. The only reason this doesn't give an effective rate of 
over 100% is that the rent assistance is usually all gone by the time 
the reduction in the dole starts. Still working on a minimum wage job 
for an in-the-hand hourly rate of about NZ$1.00 - 1.50 isn't very 
encouraging.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Product Announcement
In-Reply-To: <016701c1ea59$53179d50$969393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <016701c1ea59$53179d50$969393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <200204222051330083.CE6F127D@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 4/23/2002 at 12:55 AM MJ Dougherty wrote:

>Just a quick note to inform the Traveller community that we (Quiklink=
 Interactive) will be putting the first "LBB PDF" up for sale in a few=
 days.
>
>This will be "Traveller's Aide #1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space"
>
>Designed specifically for use with CT and T20, most of the information=
 within is compatible with any version of Traveller; stats can be converted=
 from CT to other rules sets as necessary.

For those interested, I have just put up a preliminary webpage for this=
 product with a small sample of 3 pages (and the cover)

http://www.TravellerRPG.com/PDF/ta0001.html

As Martin noted, this PDF should be available for purchase within the next=
 2-3 days

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020423005500.10756.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 03:35 PM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Pilots are officers because the military does not
> >want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> >flying a $30 million airplane when it
> crashed.....even
> >though the average fighter jock is holding
> essentially
> >the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
> >arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
> >that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
> >wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
> >why........
> 
> That being said, during WWII the Germans used
> enlisted pilots, as did the 
> RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying
> sergeants, since they thought 
> there was no reason to tie up perfectly good
> officers in what was 
> essentially a technical skill.  That died as
> carriers came to the fore, and 
> more Marines came to be stationed on ships. Many of
> the old Flying 
> Sergeants received reserve commissions as officers,
> while retaining their 
> permanent rank as enlisted men.
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       
>
  >>
  ...My point....MAC
  >>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:59:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:59:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <008201c1e814$658fd700$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020423005823.20768.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > From: Michael Cessna
> >   Pilots are officers because the military does
> not
> > want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> > flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....
> 
> No.  The 'pilots are officers' thing dates all the
> way back to the
> beginnings of military aviation.
> 
> The logic, presumably, was that a pilot was a
> gentleman and an educated
> professional, of a higher social class to the mere
> tradesmen and mechanics
> that worked on the ground.
> 
> There have been exceptions - "Flight Sergeants"
> occasionally served as
> pilots in WWII.
> 
> Winston Churchill's comments on Naval Tradition
> apply to the traditions of
> other services too, to a considerable extent.  Don't
> try to find present day
> logic in them.
> 
> Alan Bradley
> 
  >>
  Actually, it dates from almost the beginning of
Marine Aviation. While the first Marine (and Naval)
Aviator was an officer, he was quickly followed in
Central American service, by enlisted pilots. This
tradition, although frowned upon by the Navy,
continued until just after the end of WW2.

   MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] officer selection traits
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020422200846.039e5b10@pop.wizard.net>

Hey!  Thanks for posting that link earlier to the Inc. magazine article 
about what the USMC looks for in officer selection.  The Robert E. Lee they 
talk about used to be my OIC fifteen years ago or so.  He was a major then 
and I was a corporal.  He is one of the finest officers I'll ever have the 
honor to meet.  (My father, both my grandfathers, my uncles, and lots of 
other blood relations were career officers themselves, so that was not an 
idle compliment.)  Yeah, I'm sure Bob Lee had leadership traits, judgment, 
and management ability in spades even back when he was a boot lieutenant 
barely old enough to shave.

I still remember him describing that assignment aboard that freighter full 
of refugees and adrift in the Phillipine Sea in 1975.  It was classified 
for a long time, but eventually it was declassified and eventually after 
that someone persuaded him to write it up for the Marine Corps 
Gazette.  Bob Lee was never a self promoter, the description you read in 
the Inc magazine article is very, very toned down from what happened.  The 
Gazette article has some of the more gut wrenching stuff left out, too.

I've used that incident and Bob Lee more than once in my own gaming.  It's 
the stuff of high adventure.

The only reason I've ever been able to find for having the incident 
classified was to avoid political embarrassment.  Reasons of national 
defense really didn't apply.  If you want to research the Marine Corps 
Gazette article that Bob Lee wrote about it, search for an article written 
by Robert E. Lee (I believe major at the time) published in the late 
1980s.  I recommend it as a small Traveller adventure.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <200204230113.EUF04788@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Kiri Aradia Morgan says
>Kiri ^_^ (who worked on a small press magazine with two men, 
>best friends who are still best friends-- one of whom is now 
>her ex-fiance and the other her ex-husband, and still adores 
>them both-- from the other side of the continent.)
>

Ah, I know that one.  My ex-wife, on very hot summer days, 
would say, "I love you from over here."
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV66kY7QNSljIazjBl0001b1b6@hotmail.com>

Victor Raymond wrote,

>I would definitely agree with you about this.  My point is that if you
should praise Gygax, you ought to also praise David L. Arneson, as well -
it's only fair.  Gygax wouldn't have had D&D if Arneson had not started
doing Blackmoor.  And there is a fair bit to point out that isn't so
praiseworthy.<

Then the complaint should be that the quote should read "Gygax and Arneson
are to gaming what Kirby and Lee were to comics", not that the half
presented is someone false.

>Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.  Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR when Mr.
Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and co-authorship.<
and,
>Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and co-authorship.  TSR
and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.<

Not according to what I've heard.
Which is that Arneson wished no part in developing the game into what became
AD&D. Thus the desire to not continue paying royalties when he was doing no
work.
While there is likely more to it than that, the point is there may be
another view.

>I will grant you that.  The Blume Brothers did not exactly paint themselves
in glory.<

And don't forget Lorraine Williams.

>Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with
a straight face. <

If you mean "Chess, Poker, and the AD&D game system", then I not only say
that with a straight face, I submit it as proof of my position.
The simple fact is, however poorly it may have been stated or received, Gary
was absolutely right. The proof of that is in the development of the RPGA
and the Living City Campaign, which required a single, standard set of
rules, with little to no variation, in order to organize and manage a
national campaign.
The only problem with what Gary said was there was no organization to make
what he said stick.

>Not the people I am referring to.  Do keep in mind the dispute between TSR
and Chaosium regarding the Lovecraftian Mythos, etc. (which involved the
Lovecraft estate and Mr. Moorcock's solicitors), just as an example of
something other than your generalization.<

I am aware of that.
Are you aware that Gary contacted Chaosium and negotiated a mutual promotion
to resolve the matter but the Blumes squashed the deal because they didn't
want to give any support to anyone else?

>Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?<

Is that really necessary?

I wish to refute various assertions as to the failures of Gary Gygax that
are, quite simply tainted by a less than positive view of the individual. If
we are to judge by that standard, then I don't think anyone will survive.
Whatever Gary's failings as an individual might be, they most certainly do
not detract from his accomplishments as a game designer.
Further, when that is what people use to diminish those accomplishments, it
does, to me, speak more of their failings than the person they are seeking
to tear down.


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <200204230113.EUF04788@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204221831540.3200-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Kiri Aradia Morgan says
> >Kiri ^_^ (who worked on a small press magazine with two men, 
> >best friends who are still best friends-- one of whom is now 
> >her ex-fiance and the other her ex-husband, and still adores 
> >them both-- from the other side of the continent.)
> >
> 
> Ah, I know that one.  My ex-wife, on very hot summer days, 
> would say, "I love you from over here."

:)

ikaros is one of my dearest friends in the world, actually.  But turns out
he's gay, not bi, so the marriage didn't quite work out like we thought it
would.

The Vanguard years were "...the best of times, the worst of times..." in
spades.  We really found out who our friends actually were.

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <f9.1b1126af.29f61465@aol.com>

As it happens, I am quite good friends with both Gary Gygax, and Dave 
Arneson, and I am better acquainted than most with their contributions to the 
hobby. I am the better for knowing them, and for having worked with both of 
them.

They are happy to share the title: "Co-creators of Roleplaying" and with good 
reason, because they invented it. Much like Gilbert and Sullivan, they have 
their mutual antagonisms, but for the time they worked together, they 
invented the industry by which I now make a living. Something like 
roleplaying might have come about without them, because others were thinking 
along the same lines at about the same time, but they made it happen. 
Traveller would not exist without them. I'd be a game publisher, but it would 
be a radically altered industry, primarily board wargames and miniatures 
rules . . . 

Both Gary and Dave admit they missed opportunities. Who of us hasn't? 
However, I am not willing to press "reset" and eliminate one or the other of 
their contributions just to see what would happen. THings could have turned 
out a LOT worse.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Traveler Ring
In-Reply-To: <3CC4A483.8DEF4B63@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001e01c1ea6a$29c788a0$2f7de40c@loki>

This is the ever occasional and irregular annoyance declaring the
existence of the...

Traveller Web Ring
http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=traveller;action=info

If you have a Traveller web site come on board and we'll spread the
community.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019492558.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20422.181710.3T8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
>> "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
>> > eliminate poverty?
>> 
>> The government defines a poverty line.  People at and near that 
>> point pay no income taxes.  Anyone with an income greater than 
>> that pays a graduated tax, depending upon how far above it they 
>> are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the 
>> government (much like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any 
>> money in) to give them money equal to being at the poverty line.  
>
> Not quite; one idea behind negative income tax as I'm aware of it is that 
> it's
> supposed to eliminate the welfare effect where by getting a job, your income
> doesn't improve.  Thus, if the poverty line is $10,000/year and you made less
> than that, tax would be something like 50% of income - $5,000, so if you made
> $2,000/year, your taxes would be -$4,000/year.

The version I recall being interested in was one that included a flat
rate tax.

So say the "poverty line" was $10, and the tax rate was 10%. 

So your taxes would be (income - $10,000)*0.1.

income	taxes
------	------
20,000	1,000
15,000	  500
10,000	    0
 5,000	  500
     0	1,000

Obviously, you'd want to move the break point up, or the tax rate up or
both to get a true replacement for welfare.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:16:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:16:33 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <000001c1ea22$d25c5a60$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <20422.182252.6Q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> If anyone in the Portland/Vancouver area that is on this list hears
> about any job that could use someone good with computers or telecom,
> please email me off-list.

I'm trying to scrape by until I can sell some property. Alas, it looks
like I need to spend several hundred bucks I can't afford just to make
the property likely to sell... :-(

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:19:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:19:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDBDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20422.183614.1Z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> You have that exactly backwards. The LL say it's physical, which might fall
> under the ADA if you thinks it is handicapping you in some way. The RR (and
> the Pope) say it is an act of the will, meaning sin.

No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
sex isn't a sin.

*Acting* upon that attraction (ie engaging in homsexual sex acts) is
what's the sin.

The confusion is due to the common error of confusing "being
homosexual" with being a *practicing* homosexual. Not the same thing.

And it makes sense. If you had to actually be performing the
appropriate type of sex acts to have a given sexual orientation, then
nobody who doesn't have an active sex life would *have* a sexual
orientation. Which is utter nonsense.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV66kY7QNSljIazjBl0001b1b6@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422212448.04e52de0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_113567595==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 09:14 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the
>original dispute with Mr. Arneson.  Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR when Mr.
>Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and co-authorship.<
>and,
> >Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and co-authorship.  TSR
>and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.<
>
>Not according to what I've heard.

Well, since I've talked with Dave Arneson many times over the past twenty 
years, I've gotten it from the source.

>Which is that Arneson wished no part in developing the game into what became
>AD&D. Thus the desire to not continue paying royalties when he was doing no
>work.

Not at ALL what Dave has said.  And "not continue paying royalties" is 
incorrect - TSR stopped paying royalties very early on in the history of 
the production of D&D.

> >Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with
>a straight face. <
>
>If you mean "Chess, Poker, and the AD&D game system", then I not only say
>that with a straight face, I submit it as proof of my position.

I was referring to "View From the Telescope Wondering Which End is Which" 
in issue #11.  My apologies.  Now go back and say that with a straight face.

>(Re:  Chaosium) I am aware of that.
>Are you aware that Gary contacted Chaosium and negotiated a mutual promotion
>to resolve the matter but the Blumes squashed the deal because they didn't
>want to give any support to anyone else?

No, but good to know.  Nice to be clear that the Blumes were the direct 
problem there.


> >Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?<
>
>Is that really necessary?

Well, given the sweeping statement you made, yes.  Unless this counts as a 
retraction.


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_113567595==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 09:14 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out
of TSR, true - but that came later than the<br>
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.&nbsp; Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR
when Mr.<br>
Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and
co-authorship.&lt;<br>
and,<br>
&gt;Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and
co-authorship.&nbsp; TSR<br>
and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.&lt;<br><br>
Not according to what I've heard.</blockquote><br>
Well, since I've talked with Dave Arneson many times over the past twenty
years, I've gotten it from the source.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Which is that Arneson wished no
part in developing the game into what became<br>
AD&amp;D. Thus the desire to not continue paying royalties when he was
doing no<br>
work.</blockquote><br>
Not at ALL what Dave has said.&nbsp; And &quot;not continue paying
royalties&quot; is incorrect - TSR stopped paying royalties very early on
in the history of the production of D&amp;D.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;Go re-read his editorial in
Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with<br>
a straight face. &lt;<br><br>
If you mean &quot;Chess, Poker, and the AD&amp;D game system&quot;, then
I not only say<br>
that with a straight face, I submit it as proof of my
position.</blockquote><br>
I was referring to &quot;View From the Telescope Wondering Which End is
Which&quot; in issue #11.&nbsp; My apologies.&nbsp; Now go back and say
that with a straight face.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>(Re:&nbsp; Chaosium) I am aware of
that.<br>
Are you aware that Gary contacted Chaosium and negotiated a mutual
promotion<br>
to resolve the matter but the Blumes squashed the deal because they
didn't<br>
want to give any support to anyone else?</blockquote><br>
No, but good to know.&nbsp; Nice to be clear that the Blumes were the
direct problem there.<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;Care to name any names, Mr.
Weiss?&lt;<br><br>
Is that really necessary?</blockquote><br>
Well, given the sweeping statement you made, yes.&nbsp; Unless this
counts as a retraction.<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_113567595==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <f9.1b1126af.29f61465@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422213416.04e54920@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_113712064==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

What Loren said.  While I've known Mr. Arneson much better than Mr. Gygax, 
I think Loren says it right.  Thanks!

Victor

At 09:35 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>As it happens, I am quite good friends with both Gary Gygax, and Dave
>Arneson, and I am better acquainted than most with their contributions to the
>hobby. I am the better for knowing them, and for having worked with both of
>them.
>
>They are happy to share the title: "Co-creators of Roleplaying" and with good
>reason, because they invented it. Much like Gilbert and Sullivan, they have
>their mutual antagonisms, but for the time they worked together, they
>invented the industry by which I now make a living. Something like
>roleplaying might have come about without them, because others were thinking
>along the same lines at about the same time, but they made it happen.
>Traveller would not exist without them. I'd be a game publisher, but it would
>be a radically altered industry, primarily board wargames and miniatures
>rules . . .
>
>Both Gary and Dave admit they missed opportunities. Who of us hasn't?
>However, I am not willing to press "reset" and eliminate one or the other of
>their contributions just to see what would happen. THings could have turned
>out a LOT worse.
>
>LKW
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_113712064==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
What Loren said.&nbsp; While I've known Mr. Arneson much better than Mr.
Gygax, I think Loren says it right.&nbsp; Thanks!<br><br>
Victor<br><br>
At 09:35 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As it happens, I am quite good
friends with both Gary Gygax, and Dave <br>
Arneson, and I am better acquainted than most with their contributions to
the <br>
hobby. I am the better for knowing them, and for having worked with both
of <br>
them.<br><br>
They are happy to share the title: &quot;Co-creators of Roleplaying&quot;
and with good <br>
reason, because they invented it. Much like Gilbert and Sullivan, they
have <br>
their mutual antagonisms, but for the time they worked together, they
<br>
invented the industry by which I now make a living. Something like <br>
roleplaying might have come about without them, because others were
thinking <br>
along the same lines at about the same time, but they made it happen.
<br>
Traveller would not exist without them. I'd be a game publisher, but it
would <br>
be a radically altered industry, primarily board wargames and miniatures
<br>
rules . . . <br><br>
Both Gary and Dave admit they missed opportunities. Who of us hasn't?
<br>
However, I am not willing to press &quot;reset&quot; and eliminate one or
the other of <br>
their contributions just to see what would happen. THings could have
turned <br>
out a LOT worse.<br><br>
LKW<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
TML mailing list<br>
TML@travellercentral.com<br>
<a href="http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml" eudora="autourl">http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml</a></blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_113712064==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20422.183614.1Z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEDKDMAA.tml@downport.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>
> No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
> homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
> sex isn't a sin.

You misstate the RR POV, which says there is no *being* in the equation.
That would suggest something physical. They tend to deny causation outside
of the fallen (sin) condition. You correctly stated the RCC position, which
like the jewish view holds that only the act is condemnable.

ObTrav: at what LL do we see the appearance of the Thought Police? Can they
exist at any LL, for 1 on up where the technology or psionic ability exists
to determine intent before action? Or does there have to be a high LL before
your thoughts become criminal?

_____________________________________________
The Traveller Web Portal
http://www.downport.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW! I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <F20Jpjc0D543TuylJc000000369@hotmail.com>

From: Jeff Zeitlin <editor@freelancetraveller.com>

     "...indicating that he wants to make Freelance Traveller the 
rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively flattering;..."


Mr. Zeitlin,

     Flattering it may be, but it also an award that you richly deserve, 
sir.  You EARNED it through both superb editing work and constant labor in 
maintaining such a fine web site.

     "Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who 
has allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work 
more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as 
you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people 
like you are too valuable to lose."

     Others may help in providing content, but the presentation is yours 
alone and that is the reason you and your site are being recognised.  The 
best of content, arranged in a haphazard, harum-scarum manner in a 
ill-designed site, would have been lost.  You crafted a wonderful showcase 
AND selected a pleasing variety of things to display within it AND ensured 
those items were well crafted.  The recognition and accolades are yours and 
yours alone, as they should be.
     Look at the "Wounded Colossus" material.  I originally posted it to the 
TML in several disjointed, rambling posts over the period of a month, 
nothing more than ill-spelled mess of grammatical horrors which contained 
some ideas that struck the List's fancy.
     You, Mr. Zeitlin, took all that dross and refined it.  You patiently 
collected each post, corrected the gaffes, goofs, and faux pas, cleaned up 
the presentation, whittled away redundancies, and acted in every way as a 
true editor, the type of editor ever writer should have.  You made the 
"Wounded Colossus" material far better than it had been when it left my 
hands.  That is why you have been honored.
     My congratulations, sir.  This honor are well deserved and long 
overdue.  Bravo, sir!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. Whipsnade, aka William R. Cameron

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:11:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:11:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F167tLLVTnE9Q3uQIhN00007388@hotmail.com>

From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>

     "EXCUSE ME? After your "Colossus" posts detailing your alternate ending 
to the MT Rebellion, I'll be happy to debate your statement with you or 
anyone else."

     "That was a masterful piece of work, sir, and one that has become a 
permanent part of my MT campaigns. I haven't seen much of your other work 
but quality, not quantity, is the mark of excellence (as Imperium Games 
found out the hard way)."


Mr. Smart,

     Thank you, sir, you are very kind.  I was fortunate in having the 
active participation of the List while posting WC.  I was doubly fortunate 
that Mr. Zeitlin both accepted it for inclusion in his site and polished it 
to a high luster.
     However, despite producing the "Colossus" material, I am not the best 
of web surfers or researchers!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F35zRPTNZStgLzhVOJw00000252@hotmail.com>

From: "Beth" <shylady69@runbox.com>

     "It's OK, nothing to worry about.  Everything will be alright.  Why 
don't you follow these two gentlemen to a nice comfy room we have for you.  
All padded and quiet.  Latter we will feed you.  We hope that you like 
pudding.  We will even fit you with a new jacket as well."


Ms. Shylady,

     I do enjoy a good pudding, but it so hard to grip the spoon with one's 
toes...
     May I also send along my condolences with regards to your bouts of 
Whipsnade's Syndrome?  "Brain Flatulence", as it is commonly known, is a 
horrid affliction.  The other day, I left the Whipsande Manse, Casa Diablo, 
without first putting on socks.  I didn't even notice my lack of socks until 
the local constabulary had run me in for not wearing pants.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422212448.04e52de0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV142mduL7Uu9Pyo250001b287@hotmail.com>

>Well, since I've talked with Dave Arneson many times over the past twenty
years, I've gotten it from the source.<

And since I've talked with Gary Gygax, so have I.

>Not at ALL what Dave has said.  And "not continue paying royalties" is
incorrect - TSR stopped paying royalties very early on in the history of the
production of D&D.<

Well I guess they have different opinions of how it went down.

>I was referring to "View From the Telescope Wondering Which End is Which"
in issue #11.  My apologies.  Now go back and say that with a straight
face.<

I don't have access to that.
Either way, it wouldn't really matter. You see, I've heard worse than
anything I've ever seen in print directed at me personally by Gary. So
anything sent in general will simply amuse me by how mild the statements
are.

>Well, given the sweeping statement you made, yes.  Unless this counts as a
retraction.<

It is not a retraction, but I will not elaborate on it. I see no reason to
engage in the gratuitous slamming of people just to satisfy your curiousity.
It will have to suffice that I've read critiques of Gary's work by people
whose works I regard as jokes.

Instead, I would also support what Loren said. I would simply note that no
one was eliminated by the statement being discussed. What you have it a
statement of support and admiration by someone who only regularly
communicates with one of the people involved. But it seems rather than being
satisfied with suggesting, as I did, that the statement is best completed by
adding, Arneson and Lee, people would rather go to attacking Gary.


Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 22:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon Apr 22 21:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <20020422041531.74282.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DAV43ywkGmY8TkomDt500003bb3@hotmail.com>

James Ramsay wrote:


> Until we develop AI or very very sophisticated system
> this would be useless in the real world.

I agree.  I suppose the system developer would claim he _had_ created a very
very sophisticated system.  I wouldn't presume to judge until I'd seen it in
operation, but I'm fairly skeptical that this things ready to set the world
on fire.

> How does a
> computer now whether a person is reaching for a gun or
> there wallet? Answer they can't.

Police and security officers, while performing lightyears beyond computers,
have a less than unblemished record in this regard.

> All it can do is
> determine that an image of a person looks like its
> reaching for something.

I think the system may scan pedestrian crowds looking for non-typical
patterns of traffic movement.  (Person X has passed the jewelry store 5
times in the past 10 minutes, while persons Y and Z have been loitering a
few yards away for about the same amount of time.  I'd better wake Officer
Friendly.)  Admittedly, this assumption is based on the WAG Algorithm.

> If they stopped wasting money
> on tech dreams such as this actual humans could be
> hired.

If by "tech dreams" you mean any new research, I disagree with the
philosophy implicit in your statement.  If, on the other hand, you mean
pie-in-the-sky nonsense, we're on the same page.

I'm mindful of a company some years ago that did quite well for itself in
the Texas area selling a "sniffer" gadget.  Their product was a box with a
few dials, some lights, and an antenna.  They marketed their product as
being able to sense drugs, explosives, and fire accelerants.  Based on some
slick brochures and some test demonstrations (where the fix was in, of
course) a number of schools, security firms and (sigh) police departments
purchased this fraudulent piece of garbage.

I don't know if the Cromatica system will turn out to be research or
pie-in-the-sky nonsense.

> And for a very long time into the future humans
> (even the ones typically hired as security guards)
> will have more reasoning ability than all the
> computers in the world!

I couldn't agree more.  And this touches on my real quibble with this or any
other advance that makes something like law enforcement/security easier or
more convenient.

    <Old Coot Rant: Enable>

Eaiser and more convenient don't necessarily translate to better.

In general, and all other things being equal:

Who's more diligent?
 a guard at a building with doors open to the public
or
 a guard at a building with biometric security.

Who knows more (in his/her head) about the people and area (s)he polices?
a cop of today with a car, cell phone, two way radio and mobile data
terminal
or
a cop of eighty years ago who walked a beat, contacted headquarters from a
call box, and was forced to rely on his/her knowledge and memory of their
beat and its inhabitants to do their job.

If the video scanning technology that checks body measurements against those
of known offenders becomes commonplace and reliable, how good will the next
generation of police be at remembering and recognizing faces?

If Cromatica works and becomes popular, how many security officers will set
the alarm and read / nap / play video games until the system says there's a
problem?

    <Old Coot Rant: Disable>

> Robotic security guards have
> been in development since the 70's and no one has yet
> to make one that is accurate and/or doesn't cost more
> than the police budget for a small city.

Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being tried
out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 22:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Mon Apr 22 21:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEDKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <B8EA36A9.3918%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

on 4/22/02 7:46 PM, Swordy at tml@downport.com wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>> 
>> No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
>> homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
>> sex isn't a sin.
> 
> You misstate the RR POV, which says there is no *being* in the equation.
> That would suggest something physical. They tend to deny causation outside
> of the fallen (sin) condition. You correctly stated the RCC position, which
> like the jewish view holds that only the act is condemnable.
> 
> ObTrav: at what LL do we see the appearance of the Thought Police? Can they
> exist at any LL, for 1 on up where the technology or psionic ability exists
> to determine intent before action? Or does there have to be a high LL before
> your thoughts become criminal?
> 

I would think it the measure is LL, not psionic ability or TL.  "1984"
describes a pretty low TL world, maybe 5-6?, an that book pretty much
defines 'thought police'.

Of course, this measures only what the official government of a world
enforces, not the society at large - so if society on planet Rubella
believes people who like blue are 'evil' or a threat of some type, and
therefore don't employ them, throw them out of their homes/schools, ban them
from normal family/societal functions to the point of actual physical danger
and at least economic hardship - the LL can still be rather low (even if the
Rubellan government actively attempts to help blue liking people by giving
them subsidies).

Doesn't LL not only cover what is illegal, but also how often you can expect
to be hassled and how much hassle you can expect once your character finds
him or herself talking to a cop?

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 02:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue Apr 23 01:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B84@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Tackett [mailto:haegen2001@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 22 April 2002 10:38
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
> 
> 
> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to
> > Comics.
> Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember
> what he did.

Co-wrote Original D&D with Gygax, His campaign world was Blackmoor,
Gygax's was Greyhawk

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 02:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 01:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
Message-ID: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C1EAAD.1F0222C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


A sample from Traveller's Aide #1 is now on the QuikLink site....

http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html

------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C1EAAD.1F0222C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A sample from Traveller's Aide #1 is =
now on the=20
QuikLink site....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html">http://www.traveller=
rpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C1EAAD.1F0222C0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Love the cover!
Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the pdf will be somewhat better.
I will be buying this.

Regards,

Andrei Nikulinsky

>
>A sample from Traveller's Aide #1 is now on the QuikLink site....
>
><http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html>http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <016901c1eaa7$8a03d6f0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> Love the cover!
> Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the pdf will be somewhat better.
> I will be buying this.
> 
> 

Heh.... we'll hold you to that, mind.....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV142mduL7Uu9Pyo250001b287@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIECFHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Just to clarify why I equated Arneson to Kirby and Gygax to
Shooter

Both Arneson and Kirby were the primary creative geniuses in
their work, and both lost control of their creative work due to
business practices, which while legal, were morally questionable.

Both Gygax and Shooter, while having produced some great work (in
Shooter's case the "Michael" sequence in "The Avengers" was
groundbreaking for mainstream superheroes) appear (in their
writing at least) to have huge egos, and  seem to very easly
alienate other creative people. They both also seem to have poor
business sense, while at the same time seeming to think they were
good at the money side of the business, though admittedly that is
my judgement basd on second-hand reports, so is not inherently
reliable.

I'd agree with Sam's equating of Gygax to Stan Lee as well, while
I think the Shooter comparison is more accurate in terms of
temperment and style, the original team pairing part is more
accurate in terms of contemporienity.

With regard to the old "D&D created the industry" chestnut,
despite Loren's statement, D&D was neither original nor was it a
neccessary catalyst for the industry.

If TSR had not had D&D, Professor Barker's "Empire of the Petal
Throne" would almost certainly still have been published by TSR a
short time later. What became Arduin and Runequest would still
have been developed at or around the same time. "Traveller" may
not have been, but then we would have had something else it's
place, perhaps from Steve Jackson ('Car Wars' was almost a
roleplaying game from it's inception) or from FGU.

In terms of originality, just about all of the basic concepts of
what would become "roleplaying" were discussed in H.G. Wells
"Little Wars". At the other end of the roleplaying spectrum, the
trend toward heroic free-form/improvisational theatre had already
peaked in the late sixties and was losing it's lustre, with one
or two notable exceptions.

GDW, Chaosium, WRG, TSR, Flying Buffalo, Steve Jackson, Steve
Curtis, and many other primarily wargaming companies were all in
the process of adding fantasy wargaming and roleplaying systems
of various forms to their wargames, largely due to the popularity
of "Lord of the Rings" at the time. These were based originally
on personalization details for their army "generals" and "special
figures", and also on the trend toward small scale "skirmish"
wargames where the individual figures were heavily personalized
and even given "character", of which "Chainmail" was just one,
and not the most influential either.

While I'm not going to deny D&D's importance, it was not, IMO,
neccessary for the development of roleplaying.
Someone would have filled the role, just as someone would have
become the equivalemt of Bill Gates and Microsoft if Bill & Co.
had not been around, as both were merely a culmination of trends
rather than sudden discontinuities.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:34:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:34:38 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKECFHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rachel Kronick wrote :
> On 22 Apr 2002, at 20:20, Timothy Little wrote:
>
> > Blame it on the government, not Frank.  They're the
> > ones making decisions whether to hand out money
> > based on the origin of your ancestors.  I'm not
> > sure whether he was being serious about the
> > "lesbian" benefit or not.

Actually I don't think there actually is a _specific_ lesbian
benefit in New Zealand, I was being flippant.

> The solo parent benefit certainly is fact.

Yes, as are the special benefits for Maori, though I don't
disagree with the intent of the solo parent benefit or some of
the benefits targetted at Maori, my beef is with the people who
consider it a career choice, and the government that takes so
much of my money.

> I have little or no problem with the government's
> decisions regarding  benefits;

While I, on the other hand have huge problems with the way these
benefits are awarded.

I consider that such things should be targetted based on need,
not on membership of some arbitrary racial or social grouping, as
_that_, IMO, is racism, sexism, or whatever.

> the problem was that Frank came very close
> to implicitly saying that being Maori or being
> lesbian was a bad thing.

If I thought being Maori or being lesbian were bad things in
themselves I would have no qualms about saying it in public or on
this list. I wouldn't just imply it.

> His derisive tone, not the government's decision,
> was what irked me.

I'd say you worry about the wrong things then, complaining about
a mere derisive tone rather than the actual racism and sexism the
derision was targetted at. But that's your karma, not mine.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 04:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 03:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/23/2002 at 5:05 PM ondy wrote:

>Love the cover!
>Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the pdf will be somewhat better.
>I will be buying this.

The jpgs don't do it justice really, so I just posted a 4-page PDF sample=
 also. Same pages, but you get a better look at the layout!

http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001s.pdf

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 04:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 03:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Law Level (was: RAH and Libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <20020423093810.4CB01279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020423093810.4CB01279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <j6cacu0relbk1aah5d6noe68aoaq6v0ncf@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:32:03 -0700, Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Doesn't LL not only cover what is illegal, but also how often you can expect
>to be hassled and how much hassle you can expect once your character finds
>him or herself talking to a cop?

There are varying interpretations; the Original Canon seemed to make LL
exclusively a measure of how legal it was to go around armed beyond the
teeth.  Not unreasonable, necessarily, given that the level of
sophistication of role-playing in those days was low by today's standards,
and hakkenslash was "SOP". (N.B. I view Traveller as having been one of the
games that started the movement away from that.)

On the rare occasions that I actually address the question of what LL
means, I do currently interpret it as being the 'overall police hasslement'
likelihood - but I also like to expand the LL into a ULP,  l DGP WBH -
after all, there's no requirement for consistency in all areas of the law
(e.g., LL in NYC for weapons possession is essentially 9+, but I'd estimate
the hasslement level as only about 3 for most people in most situations).
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 07:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 06:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RPGs
Message-ID: <95.1b594c7e.29f6ba34@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/23/2002 4:39:08 AM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>GDW, Chaosium, WRG, TSR, Flying Buffalo, Steve Jackson, Steve
>Curtis, and many other primarily wargaming companies were all in
>the process of adding fantasy wargaming and roleplaying systems
>of various forms to their wargames, largely due to the popularity
>of "Lord of the Rings" at the time. These were based originally
>on personalization details for their army "generals" and "special
>figures", and also on the trend toward small scale "skirmish"
>wargames where the individual figures were heavily personalized
>and even given "character", of which "Chainmail" was just one,
>and not the most influential either.

You've obviously done considerable research if you know of Steve Curtis -- 
few people do nowadays.

>While I'm not going to deny D&D's importance, it was not, IMO,
>neccessary for the development of roleplaying.

I'm not as certain of that as you are . . . let us agree to disagree.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 07:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 06:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <DAV43ywkGmY8TkomDt500003bb3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC60A07.12144.5F6853@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002 at 23:39, Texas Redshift wrote:

> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being tried
> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

Not off-hand, but that sounds like one of Harry Harrison's from _War 
with the Robots_.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:35:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:35:26 2002
Subject: [TML] GT-FT question: Governers vs Legates
Message-ID: <3CC57085.ACFD07EB@mail.cswnet.com>

Two quick questions:

Whats the difference between an Imperial Governor and an Imperial
Governor-General?

On worlds like Arba and Yorbund, where there is no government, who does
the Imperium send, a Legate or a Governor?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] living space
Message-ID: <F209X64kDn9cvKluevz000007df@hotmail.com>

From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net>

     "But the Traveller navies, like the wet navies of today require 
sophisticated technologically savvy crewmen. Not the kind of people that 
would want to live under conditions that exist on even today's ships (one 
reason the U.S. Navy has so much trouble keeping people.)"


Mr. Carlino,

     A very accurate supposition, sir.  Living conditions were one, of many, 
reasons I did not put twenty years in the USN.
     During the ship habitability thread of last year, I described ad 
nauseum the living arrangements aboard my last ship, USS California.  A 
brief recap will fit here.
     I lived with 41 other men in an area slightly smaller than a two car 
garage.  Our bunks were stacked three high.  Personal property stowage was 
limited to a locker underneath our beds; approx 6' by 2' and 10" deep, and a 
smaller gym-style locker.  My division was lucky, our office was one deck 
below our berthing area so we could watch TV, play cards, etc., down there 
and let others sleep.
     Our berthing area was a "hazardous noise area" when underway.  That 
meant that ear plugs or muffs were required.  Both propeller shafts ran 
underneath the space, #2 engineroom was forward, #2 diesel was aft along 
with #2 pump room.  My last year aboard, the space finally recieved noise 
dampening pads on the bulkheads which lessened the problem somewhat.
     The sanitary arrangements can be summed up in one phrase; our two 
commodes didn't have stalls around them until my last year aboard.

     "One of the easiest, and cheapest in the long run, method of keeping 
high quality people is to give them decent living conditions. It is common 
on merchant ships today for seamen to live in the kind of berthing used on 
Traveller ships. It is my contention that by the middle of this century U.S. 
Navy ships will have similar berthing, if only because that's they only way 
they will be able to compete for the high quality technical people they 
need."

     Either that or barracks ashore for ALL personnel.  The SSNs and SSBNs 
have always housed their crews ashore when the vessel is in port.  The rest 
of the Navy should do the same.  Putting up with cramped living conditions 
would be tolerable during deployments IF you knew you'd be returning to 
barracks back in port.  As it stands now, most naval personnel live in the 
factories where they work.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

ObTrav - I've always thought that 57th century SDBs are crewed in a manner 
similar to USN SSBNs; two crews per vessel.  This keeps the SDB on patrol 
longer without driving the crew mad.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:46:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:46:12 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <200204231444.g3NEieV03093@uranus.networkwcs.net>

[... snip long non-Traveller stuff ...]

So what I would like to know from those who seem to have discussions
with G. Gygax is this: What is it about +1 axes and why do they seem
to appear in every early D&D module? Why, oh God why?!? THE AXES, THE
AXES!!!

... ahem. Sorry. I'll go back into topor again.

ObTrav: Do the Imperial Marines use +1 axes in shipboard hand-to-hand
combat? Would a superdense axehead make a +1 axe? If Dulinor had
killed Strephon with a +1 axe, would the course of the Rebellion been
altered (oh wait, it was all a dream, wasn't it Bobby?). Would F.S.
industries be willing to buy secret plans for a +1 axe spinal mount
stolen from the planet Xayag?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

Who showed supreme restraint when he gave the last p*racy thread a pass.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:52:13 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <F209X64kDn9cvKluevz000007df@hotmail.com>
References: <F209X64kDn9cvKluevz000007df@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <02042316460813.03729@avlendris>

Hey Guys

After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video 
(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net seems 
utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was a 
Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters). 

Anyone have any clue?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIECFHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <DAV142mduL7Uu9Pyo250001b287@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020423094644.04ea2d60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_1470066==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 09:42 PM 4/23/02 +1200, you wrote:
>If TSR had not had D&D, Professor Barker's "Empire of the Petal
>Throne" would almost certainly still have been published by TSR a
>short time later.

Not necessarily true.  Prof. Barker was introduced to D&D role-playing by a 
player from Mr. Gygax's Greyhawk campaign, who had moved from Lake Geneva 
to Minneapolis to begin college.  The subsequent game was mildly influenced 
by D&D, and aside from the "Purple Book" (the play-test rules that became 
EPT), there's no clear set of "role-playing" rules for Tekumel.  To be 
sure, Prof. Barker has talked about the role-playing done in grad school, 
but it wasn't intended for publication.

Victor Raymond


Victor J. Raymond
Department of Sociology, ISU
vraymond@iastate.edu
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 09:42 PM 4/23/02 +1200, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>If TSR had not had D&amp;D,
Professor Barker's &quot;Empire of the Petal<br>
Throne&quot; would almost certainly still have been published by TSR
a<br>
short time later. <br>
</blockquote><br>
Not necessarily true.&nbsp; Prof. Barker was introduced to D&amp;D
role-playing by a player from Mr. Gygax's Greyhawk campaign, who had
moved from Lake Geneva to Minneapolis to begin college.&nbsp; The
subsequent game was mildly influenced by D&amp;D, and aside from the
&quot;Purple Book&quot; (the play-test rules that became EPT), there's no
clear set of &quot;role-playing&quot; rules for Tekumel.&nbsp; To be
sure, Prof. Barker has talked about the role-playing done in grad school,
but it wasn't intended for publication.<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times">Victor J. Raymond<br>
Department of Sociology, ISU<br>
vraymond@iastate.edu</font></html>

--=====================_1470066==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 09:20:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 08:20:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>; from martinjd@globalnet.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:56:21AM +0100
References: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020423091936.A5708@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:56:21AM +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
> http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html

Looks attractive.  I wonder, though, if it might not have been
possible to put GURPS stats in as well.  Might have widened the market
some, and with a decent little prog shouldn't be too expensive.
Famous last words and all that, I know...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you want to travel around the world and be invited to speak at a lot
of different places, just write a Unix operating system.
                                       --Linus Torvalds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
>Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
...
>I'm not anti-taxes; they're a necessary evil.  But it's important to
>realise the very bad efects taxation has on an economy.  Ideally
>taxation (and therefore, the public sector) would be limited to a few
>percent of GDP, so as to minimise the deleterious economic effects
>thereof.

  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a substantial
public investment in infrastructure? It's called the Third World.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>






>After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video
>(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net
seems
>utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was
a
>Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters).

I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 (in fact
i try to pretend it never happened.)

I once ran a Galactica campaign. however i had no real dimensions on the
ship. so i started doing some guessing. First i found somewhere stated that
Battlestars carried 75 fighters broken down into 4 squadrons. i had
problems with this number. it worked out to 18 vipers per sqdrn and 3 left
over for... what? replacements to the squadrons? again nothing i could find
explained it.

anyway I also found out that she could launch all her vipers at once.
launching both Landing Bays(I always referred to the entire pod as the
Landing Bays even though only the aft end of the pod was used for ship
recovery). this comes up with the very convenient number of 37.5. so we are
launching half a viper out each bay every time we are under attack.

well i made a few changes upped the number of vipers to 80 giving each
sqdrn 20. and launching 40 in a broadside. to figure the length of the ship
i actually did two things. (Now remember this is from memory from like 1986
8P )

First i did have a set of dimensions for the viper. so i calculated the
width of the viper and launch bay at both 37.5 and 40. i had a set of plans
that where actually used to build the Mock fighter and the Launching pad
set. i think i still have that set of plans at home ill look tonight if i
do ill send you the dimensions i worked with.

Once this distance was figured. i tried to figure out how many gun
positions where spaced along the launch tub exits. the only way i could
figure this was by looking at the model i had built as a kid. Now granted i
know this is not the best thing you could do to figure it but i really had
no other choice. i took a best guess as to how wide i thought each gun
position was and added it to my viper width total.

i then estimated that this total number was 80% of the length of a landing
bay. so i tacked on 20% more to get a total landing bay. then once i had
this number i estimated the length percentage of the landing bay to the
ships over all length. so if i felt the landing bay was 45% of the ships
over all length i just tacked on double the landing bay plus 15% more to
get a total length over all.

to find width i did something similar.

when the vipers where on final to one of the landing bays you could see
other vipers sitting on their launch cradles. i did a an estimate of the
width of the landing bays based on the LOA of a Viper. once i had that
number i used my bays as a guide for a WOA for a Battlestar.

The number that comes to mind from back then is like 1750 meters to 1950
meters depending on 37.5 per broadside to 40 per broadside. She really is a
huge ship. i cant remember the WOA. ill look and see if i can find my notes
on dimensions for the Galactica and my plans that have the actual viper
dimensions

the biggest problem is that i don't think any real dimensions were ever
published for the Galactica so any dimensions are really a best guess.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231606.EVJ07561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

shudson@lightspeed.ca says
>
>  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
>modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a 
>substantial public investment in infrastructure? It's called 
>the Third World.
>

There's a balance to be struck there.  It's possible to spend 
too much, or make the definition of infrastructure too 
vague.  Also, it's a good thing for governments to invest in 
areas where venture capitalists fear to tread (rural electric 
power, the original Internet), but it's also good to know 
when those things should become private.

Not Exactly ObTrav: I firmly believe that instead of spending 
money on the Space Shuttle, the government should be spending 
on an initiative to get companies to build a low cost means 
to get into orbit.  Any idea that could work should be on the 
table.  Companies should get incentives for working in 
space.  We need to get off this rock and make money, instead 
of doing science in a tin can in orbit.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>; from shudson@lightspeed.ca on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 08:52:20AM -0700
References: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 08:52:20AM -0700, Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
>   Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
> modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a substantial
> public investment in infrastructure? It's called the Third World.

Of course I'm serious.  And the problem with those countries is not
`investment' (which is a misused word: investments yield returns), but
lack of ironclad property and contract law, among other things.  The
First World pours money into those places, and it does very little
good.

There are things for which it makes sense that they be state-run
(e.g. power & water distribution, roads &c.) but not state-subsidised
(i.e. you pay for what you burn/drink/whatever).  There are things for
which it makes sense that they be state-subsidised (e.g. the military
and process of government).

That does not mean that the public sector should be as large as it is.
And it certainly doesn't mean that we should not investigate ways to
either privatise _or_ run on the local level.

Good sigmonster...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A man who lives in a country ought to contribute his fair share to its
defense and maintenance.  Everything else is extortion.
                                       --Poul Anderson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:13:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:13:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020423091936.A5708@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>

In the broadest sense, they are competing products. And even though one of
them is based on an "open" gaming system, the other is not ;)

From Miracle Max's Recipe Book:

	To one fresh paper cut;
		add 1 tsp. lemon juice
		and 1/2 tsp. salt

	mash with your thumb until screaming stops

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Robert A. Uhl

> > http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html
>
> Looks attractive.  I wonder, though, if it might not have been
> possible to put GURPS stats in as well.  Might have widened the market
> some, and with a decent little prog shouldn't be too expensive.
> Famous last words and all that, I know...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:19:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:19:53 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
> Once this distance was figured. i tried to figure out how many gun
> positions where spaced along the launch tub exits. the only way i could
> figure this was by looking at the model i had built as a kid. Now

Model of what?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On 22 Apr 2002 at 7:41, Paul Walker wrote:
> > Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is
> 10,000Cr. 
> > If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away
> 10,000
> > of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick. 
> In
> > my mind, this situation would produce three types
> of
> > people:
> 
> You're assuming that 50% of the population does no
> work, here.

Well, given Human nature, I would expect fewer than
50% to work.  If you can live decently without any
attempt to work, why would you work?  The entire
discussion originated around the negative tax, and the
explanation given has the government setting the
"poverty" level.

More than assuming 50% doesn't work, I assume that the
government will set the "poverty" level near the
median income.  Why?  It is good for reelection.  Now
before anyone jumps on my case, I recognize that this
is one of the major assumptions that will flaw my
arguement, but, frankly, I don't trust the government
to make the right decision.

The welfare system should exist for two reasons,
helping those who can't work to survive, and
encouraging those who can work to do so. 
Unfortunately, that is not what government officials
use it for.  They use it as a kick-back for votes. (I
do confess to a US-centric view of politics, but I
would imagine it is similar.)

The negative tax system as presented rewards people
for not working.  If you can work and you choose not
to, you should not get any reward.
  
> > 1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
> >      These people continue to earn as much as they
> > can, either (a) hoping that maybe the government
> will
> > not need all of it to pay for those not at poverty
> > level and that they will get to keep the extra
> > (doubtful) or (b) working because they are not
> > concerned with the money aspect of the work, but
> are
> > motivated by something else entirely.
> 
> Why is it doubtful?
> 

Because the government will be likely to take more
than they need.  Someone will present the idea that we
can't lower the poverty level but we may not get
enough taxes to pay next year, so we better take a
little extra to ensure that we can pay the poverty
level in the future.  Not to mention that we need to
take in more taxes for our pork barrel.  

I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
retiring tomorrow.  While I don't know where all the
money went, I know that much went to pork barrel, and
some went to folks who never paid that much in.

Maybe I'm not making sense.  Suffice it to say, that I
don't trust the government to make the right
decisions, and the negative tax seems to put much
trust in the government to make the right decisions.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:25:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:25:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231606.EVJ07561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:06:01PM -0400
References: <200204231606.EVJ07561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423101904.C5708@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:06:01PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> Not Exactly ObTrav: I firmly believe that instead of spending 
> money on the Space Shuttle, the government should be spending 
> on an initiative to get companies to build a low cost means 
> to get into orbit.

_Allowing_ companies to build and enter orbit would be a good start.

Part of the problem is that the technology to get men to the moon is
precisely the technology to get nukes to Naples.  Modern nation states
like it when a) only states posess power and b) as few states as
possible do so.

Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
but it's an interesting way to look at it.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say
to its subjects, `This you may not read, this you must not see, this
you are forbidden to know,' the end result is tyranny and oppression,
no matter how holy the motives.  Mighty little force is needed to
control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount
of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the
rack, not fission bombs, not anything.  You can't conquer a free man;
the most you can do is kill him.               --Robert A.  Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020423162545.82697.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> That would *only* be true if the median income was
> at the poverty 
> line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.

You are correct.  I think the pressure would be on the
government from those below median income to put the
"poverty" level as close to median as possible.

As those two numbers get closer, the quantity of
people who try to make more than will be taken is
reduced.  (I may be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of
work for 6,000Cr, but when the numbers get closer,
will I be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of work for
3,000Cr?)

The cycle continues until there are too few workers to
support the system.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162545.82697.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019580147.4086.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> --- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > That would *only* be true if the median income was
> > at the poverty 
> > line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.
> 
> You are correct.  I think the pressure would be on the
> government from those below median income to put the
> "poverty" level as close to median as possible.

Sure, and for those above the median income to put the 'poverty' level as low
as possible.  Seriously, the political pressures on tax levels with negative
income are not substantially different from those associated with general
welfare today, and it's very rare for welfare to allow someone to live at
median income.

Of course, if by 'poverty line', you mean the point at which your net tax rate
is zero, that may be at a fairly high percentile, but simply sitting without
working only gets you around 1/5 of that much money.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162545.82697.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Paul Walker wrote:

> --- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > That would *only* be true if the median income was
> > at the poverty 
> > line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.
> 
> You are correct.  I think the pressure would be on the
> government from those below median income to put the
> "poverty" level as close to median as possible.
> 
> As those two numbers get closer, the quantity of
> people who try to make more than will be taken is
> reduced.  (I may be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of
> work for 6,000Cr, but when the numbers get closer,
> will I be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of work for
> 3,000Cr?)

This kind of economic system will ONLY work if no one has a "shit job".

If I had my druthers I would spend every day writing.  I might or might
not make any money on it, but that's what I'd do.  I do not work as a
physicians' administrative assistant for the sheer pleasure of it.  It's
annoying and boring much of the time, even though I believe in what we are
doing here.

Economic systems such as the one in ST:TNG work the way they do because of
labor replacement.  Replicators and robotics and "holograms" (that aren't
holograms) ensure that human beings don't have to flip burgers, type other
people's correspondence, etc.  I don't know who does the plumbing.  There
are a lot of jobs that pay well because they are boring, dangerous, or
stressful that people will simply not do unless they either love the work
so much they don't care, or are paid a lot more than other folks, so it is
worth it to them, and not taxed down to the median.

Writers, artists, and scientists love to posit such economic systems,
because they love what they do and will do it whether or not they get paid
a lot.  The fact remains, however, that construction work, plumbing, oil
rigging, upper level administration, and a lot of other very important
jobs that bring in fat paychecks get done because people want the fat
paychecks, not because people's souls thrill at the thought of mucking out
your sewer pipes or sitting through another meeting about the
Tleilaxu-Seldon grant budget.  I would never sit through another meeting
if I didn't have to.  I don't believe that the people who are going to
come over next Friday and fix my telephone lines are in it for the fun of
it all, either.

That is why I don't see this as a valid social plan.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93!  Thou Art God tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:53:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:53:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> > Looks attractive.  I wonder, though, if it might not have been
> > possible to put GURPS stats in as well.  Might have widened the market
> > some, and with a decent little prog shouldn't be too expensive.
> > Famous last words and all that, I know...


We don't have a license to do GURPS products. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFC0ADB44D.1ECBB5A6-ON85256BA4.005A572C@pheaa.org>





>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
>> Once this distance was figured. i tried to figure out how many gun
>> positions where spaced along the launch tub exits. the only way i could
>> figure this was by looking at the model i had built as a kid. Now

>Model of what?

Of the Galactica. put out by Revell or Monogram i think. had decals to make
it either the Galactica or the Pegasus. i made mine the Pegasus. I also had
several Vipers. in fact i built one on a launch cradle with a scratch built
Interior. It was not very good but i loved it 8)

the launch bays where clear along the Port and starboard side. spaced among
them (twice i think) was this flat area of hull where they gun emplacements
where suppose to be. On the model they did get the Forward Angle on the
Launch bays correct. the fighters did not launch strait out they launched
at a forward angle from the ship.

On a side note the number of launch tubs on this model where off as well. i
think it had like 24 or 25 launch tubes per broadside. but this model was
not what i would call a real scale model of the ship. it had a number of
serious Inconsistencies compared to the one you saw every week on the show.

For Example there is a "Tube" type stricture running from the port landing
bay to starboard landing bay underneath the Galactica's main hull. my
Assumption in my game was that this "tube" allowed for viper/shuttle
storage and maintenance. it also allowed for the moving of ships from on
bay to another depending on the situation. IE say in battle Alpha bay was
damaged in such a way that no viper recoveries could be made but the
forward launch facilities where still operable. you could recover vipers in
beta bay and move them to alphas launch tubes.

on the model this structure is not a "tube" but a portion of the main ships
hull. in fact the mid Bay Pylon is also molded into this structure when it
should not be. so if you use the model as a guide the Mid Pylon is actually
part of this huge under hull mass. However if you watch the show there are
some nice starboard side flanking shots of the Galactica as she moves away
from you. in these shots you can see the Mid Pylon is its own separate
structure. it also comes down at a different angle than the Fore and Aft
Pylons.

I am no engineer but my "feeling" is that the mid Pylon serves as some sort
of load bearing or structural reenforcement member for the entire
structure.

Gads I'm talking to much. on a side note the released those models again
recently i wanted to buy them so i could build a second Battlestar to go
with my "Pegasus". 8)i still have my original Battlestar hanging from the
ceiling in my Office at the house 8P

Bill


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231704.EVL07840@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Kiri Aradia Morgan says
>
>Economic systems such as the one in ST:TNG work the way they 
>do because of labor replacement.  Replicators and robotics 
>and "holograms" (that aren't holograms) ensure that human 
>beings don't have to flip burgers, type other people's 
>correspondence, etc.  I don't know who does the plumbing.  

That's what I liked about Babylon 5.  There were not only 
people who cleaned the plumbing, there were jobless, 
desperate people as well.  I find that any other 
representation of human society is unreal in the extreme.

The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST 
series is that everyone is an officer.

ObTrav: IMTU the advent of new technology hasn't liberated 
too many of the working poor - in fact, in some cases, it's 
just made them the non-working poor.  There's a great 
Stanislaw Lem story along those lines...
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
References: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <02042318594616.03729@avlendris>

On Tuesday 23 April 2002 17:04, you wrote:
> >After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video
> >(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net
>
> seems
>
> >utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was
>
> a
>
> >Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters).
>
> I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 (in fact
> i try to pretend it never happened.)
 

I think we all did that ;->

I don't know if I have the heart to tell you.. you seemed to have put in a 
lot of work... but the vipers launch tubes come out along the "jaw line" of 
the Galactica, along the bottom edge of the "head" part. Also, if you watch 
the vipers emerge, more than one emerge at a time. What I always wondered 
was.... why Didn't they launch them from the "pods", why did they go to the 
trouble of moving them up to the "head"?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:12:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisc
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEIKCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: wlewis@mailbag.com
>
>My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete
the
>process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be spending the
evening
>of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San Francisco. If there are
any
>fellow Travellers who would care to get to gether with me that evening for
beer
>and/or conversation, please let me know.

When does your flight arrive, and when would you like to meet?  The San
Francisco Airport Holiday Inn is not in San Francisco, nor is it actually
very close to the airport, if I'm thinking of the right hotel -- but that
won't stop us from meeting someone who is really travelling.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <OFC0ADB44D.1ECBB5A6-ON85256BA4.005A572C@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEEEDMAA.tml@downport.com>

No scale, eh? Too bad. That might have been your answer right there :(

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
>
> >Model of what?
>
> Of the Galactica. put out by Revell or Monogram i think. had
[snip]
> but this model was
> not what i would call a real scale model of the ship. it had a number of
> serious Inconsistencies compared to the one you saw every week on
> the show.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:23:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:23:09 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFDA0A27EA.2AAADE7D-ON85256BA4.005EE7AF@pheaa.org>







>I don't know if I have the heart to tell you.. you seemed to have put in a

>lot of work... but the vipers launch tubes come out along the "jaw line"
of
>the Galactica, along the bottom edge of the "head" part. Also, if you
watch
>the vipers emerge, more than one emerge at a time. What I always wondered
>was.... why Didn't they launch them from the "pods", why did they go to
the
>trouble of moving them up to the "head"?

No they don't launch from the head. if you look at the movies during the
launch sequence they once and a while show an over the ship shot. you see
the vipers emerging from the forward part of the Pod. in fact i believe the
shot shows part of the forward portion of the pod where it slops back down
to a point.

Also if you look closely when the viper is on Approach to the landing bay
you will see all these vipers sitting in their launch cradles.

I had someone try to tell me this before but i went back and watched my
videos and confirmed the things i have said.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>; from traveller_tv@yahoo.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:20:37AM -0700
References: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost> <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020423113808.B6061@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:20:37AM -0700, Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
> great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
> money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
> putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
> retiring tomorrow.

It's a Ponzi scheme, pure and simple.

What we really need is for FICA to go into an 401(k) which is paid out
to one after some age, and is inheritable.  I don't mind enforced
savings for the future.  What I mind is being forced into a pyramid
scheme which we _cannot win_.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A Democracy: Three wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.
A Republic: The flock gets to vote for which wolves vote on dinner.
A Constitutional Republic: Voting on dinner is expressly forbidden, and
  the sheep are armed.
          --Anonymous

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:46:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:46:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>; from martinjd@globalnet.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:50:22PM +0100
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com> <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:50:22PM +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> We don't have a license to do GURPS products. 

You don't need one, any more than East Taiwan Metal & Plastic needs a
license to manufacture a Ford compatible gas cap.  As long as no
patent, trademark or copyright is infringed, one can do anything.  I
believe that interoperability is still protected, even in the
(horrendous) DMCA.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Earth is degenerating these days.  Bribery and corruption abound.
Children no longer mind their parents, every man wants to write a book,
and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching.
                           --Assyrian stone tablet, c. 2800 B.C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <200204231755.g3NHtrJ15709@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> 
>Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:46:08 +0100
>Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
...
>After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video 
>(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net seems 
>utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was a 
>Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters). 

  Well, the box for the Revell-Monogram kit says 45 cm :)  The fluff
text in the instructions says 2000' long, which isn't much better. 

  ISTR that there's a fairly serious treatment of this (based on 
one of the scale models from the series?) at:  www.chrispappas.com
IAC, there _must_ be a Galactica web-ring.

  In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the 
openings on the launch/landing bays.

  And on said Revell-Monogram model (85-3618) those openings are
no more than 4mm on a 400+mm ship. So 800m length looks to be a
minimum; given the proportions, perhaps around 500,000 Dt?

  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:18:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:18:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231803.g3NI3xJ17762@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
...
>>  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
>>modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a 
>>substantial public investment in infrastructure? It's called 
>>the Third World.
>
>There's a balance to be struck there.  It's possible to spend 
>too much, or make the definition of infrastructure too vague.  

  Heck, yes - bureaucracies (whether corporate or government)
are fully able to make horrid investment decisions. As can
individuals, of course :(

...Also, it's a good thing for governments to invest in 
>areas where venture capitalists fear to tread (rural electric 
>power, the original Internet), but it's also good to know 
>when those things should become private.

  Agree, broadly, although I think there's much merit in the
arguments for maintaining public ownership of some "natural
monopoly" items of infrastructure.

  ObTrav: the IN is _the_ crucial piece of the 3I's public 
infrastructure; the Throne maintains an effective monopoly
on its own ownership. Right?

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231803.g3NI3xJ17762@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019586447.9084.ajackson@ping>

Steven Hudson writes:

>   ObTrav: the IN is _the_ crucial piece of the 3I's public 
> infrastructure; the Throne maintains an effective monopoly
> on its own ownership. Right?

Well, by definition the IN is only controlled by the Imperium.  However, the
Throne does not have an effective monopoly on interstellar naval forces.

However, the other public infrastructure controlled by the throne is just as
crucial (though, once again, not a monopoly).  That's starports.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:35:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:35:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
Message-ID: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was revisiting the idea of the solo adventure as mentioned 
a while back.  And then I was surfing someone's blog today, 
and it had a parody of an Ayn Rand story (she is rather 
formulaic).  And that reminded me of a gizmo I got from an 
old copy of Spy Magazine that helps you become a fashionable 
writer in New York, writing in the style, of say, Bret Easton 
Ellis.

It's a thing with a sliding card, and you make your 
selections and then read your story.  

It would be great if someone could write a plot 
generator/navigator that used CT rules and ran on a Palm.  I 
don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play 
backgammon on the Metro.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:39:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:39:18 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <200204231834.g3NIYtJ26544@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

...
>  In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
>a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the 
>openings on the launch/landing bays.

  FWIW, there are photos of a scale model of a Galactica Shuttle at:
        http://www.EdMiarecki.com/Formatting/re06.html

  ISTR from the show that those windows aren't small, so that may be
in the 200 Dt range for Trav - guestimates, anyone?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:27:25PM -0400
References: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423124144.B6115@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:27:25PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> I don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
> backgammon on the Metro.

Ah, but there's also solitaire.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
'Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US
 companies like Microsoft.'                         --some AOLer
'To this end we dedicate ourselves...'                     --Don

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:46:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jim Catchpole)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:46:48 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
References: <200204231755.g3NHtrJ15709@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <008801c1eaf6$93b2af60$7b000150@jimcatchpole>

----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.ca>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 23 April 2002 18:54
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?


> >From: Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie>
> >Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:46:08 +0100
> >Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?

>   In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
> a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the
> openings on the launch/landing bays.
>
>   And on said Revell-Monogram model (85-3618) those openings are
> no more than 4mm on a 400+mm ship. So 800m length looks to be a
> minimum; given the proportions, perhaps around 500,000 Dt?
>

Well,  from memory,  the book of the film said 'over a mile long'. It also
claimed the ship was over 200 years old.

I don't know if you could consider that reliable though (my memory or the
book) ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:56:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:56:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
>> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being
tried
>> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
>> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
>> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?
>
>Not off-hand, but that sounds like one of Harry Harrison's from _War
>with the Robots_.

Isaac Asimov, The Caves of Steel, circa 1952.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:59:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:59:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFBB88BA8A.57A354AF-ON85256BA4.00674941@pheaa.org>





...
>  In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
>a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the
>openings on the launch/landing bays.

  FWIW, there are photos of a scale model of a Galactica Shuttle at:
        http://www.EdMiarecki.com/Formatting/re06.html

 If pop up a level on the website he has the Galactica model there. if you
look closely to the pod in some of those pictures you can see the launch
tubes running down the sides of the bay. intermittently you see spots where
gun emplacements are nested in-between launch tubes.

great site.

Bill



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:01:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:01:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <20020423124144.B6115@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231147070.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:27:25PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >
> > I don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
> > backgammon on the Metro.
> 
> Ah, but there's also solitaire.
> 
Where on earth is it that people pay $400 USD for a palm pilot?  I don't
have one, but I have never heard of anyone paying that much for one.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423153922.00b8bec0@urbin.net>

At 02:27 PM 4/23/02 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>I was revisiting the idea of the solo adventure as mentioned
>a while back.  And then I was surfing someone's blog today,
>and it had a parody of an Ayn Rand story (she is rather
>formulaic).  And that reminded me of a gizmo I got from an
>old copy of Spy Magazine that helps you become a fashionable
>writer in New York, writing in the style, of say, Bret Easton
>Ellis.
>
>It's a thing with a sliding card, and you make your
>selections and then read your story.
>
>It would be great if someone could write a plot
>generator/navigator that used CT rules and ran on a Palm.  I
>don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
>backgammon on the Metro.

You should have gone for the i705.  I keep up with my various Traveller 
PBEM games using my Palm.
You may not get the coverage in the Metro, but for cases like that, I 
download the mail first.
Then I read it, delete & reply.  When I get signal again, I toggle the 
outbox to be sent and empty the trash.

I'm also using Documents to Go store character data.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC5B895.7010800@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>>
>>>Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being
>>
> tried
> 
>>>out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
>>>letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
>>>predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

Wan't that called 'Brillo' ?


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:54:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:54:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip about robot policeman stories>

My favorite robot policeman is ED-209.  I have the feeling 
that if they do introduce robot policemen, they will be 
far "dumber" than the ones in the science fiction story 
you're talking about.

Me, I'm waiting for the autonomous infantryman.  Of course, 
you can get a real infantryman pretty cheap, so prices will 
have to come down.  

Of course, you can't beat an autonomous robot infantryman for 
sheer terror.  It's probably a bit harder to kill than a real 
infantryman, and it's probably a much better shot. And if you 
manage to kill it, all you've done is trash some electronic 
parts.  Not very satisfying.  And you probably can't capture 
one - even if you caught one in a net, it's probably too 
dangerous.

I think that the first versions should be some sort of spider-
legged robot along the lines of some of Rodney Brooks' 
creations.  They should hide in the daytime and come out at 
night.  They should be airdropped into the rear, and they 
should be used to spy on things.  Also, if discovered, they 
should shoot every warm body they see.  Maybe even give them 
a blade or two to become an intelligent lawnmower.

The psychological implications are great.  Now, who wants to 
go on patrol tonight, knowing that if you find one of these 
things, it's going to make meat by-product out of most of 
your patrol?

I think a gadget like this is already "do-able"
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:57:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:57:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
Message-ID: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>

For anyone that might know the answer:

While working on my Mire landgrab, I have come up with a question that I hope someone on the TML might know an answer for.  (Preferably a correct one.  :-) )

What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain in order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?  The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.  Can that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without affecting Mire's orbit?

Thanks.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 14:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 13:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
Message-ID: <200204232004.EVR06043@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Mike West" asks
>
>What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must 
>maintain in order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?  
>The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny 
>sun at a distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is 
>assigned to .4 AU.  Can that second planet orbit closer 
>than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without affecting Mire's orbit?
>

I would think that would depend on the mass of the planets 
involved.  Earth is at 1 AU, so Venus and Mercury have to be 
at fractions of an AU.  They both seem to have nearly 
circular orbits, so they don't seem to be affecting each 
other in a major way.

________________
Employees smoking
Off company property
I'm doing their work

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 14:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 13:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


>> We don't have a license to do GURPS products. 
>
>You don't need one, any more than East Taiwan Metal & Plastic needs a
>license to manufacture a Ford compatible gas cap.  As long as no
>patent, trademark or copyright is infringed, one can do anything.  I
>believe that interoperability is still protected, even in the
>(horrendous) DMCA.

Whether legal or not (HIGHLY debatable) more than one lawsuit has happened=
 over just such activity. While the suit may or may not end up thrown out=
 in the long run, personally I don't have the time, resources, or desire to=
 deal with the possibility. Without an OK from SJG on the issue it ain't=
 gonna happen (and yes we have approached SJG about this already).

Hunter




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 14:28:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 13:28:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423165305.2B007279D2@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E1706qU-0005s2-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> shudson@lightspeed.ca says
> >
> >  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
> >modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a 
> >substantial public investment in infrastructure? It's called 
> >the Third World.
> >
> 
> There's a balance to be struck there.  It's possible to spend 
> too much, or make the definition of infrastructure too 
> vague.  Also, it's a good thing for governments to invest in 
> areas where venture capitalists fear to tread (rural electric 
> power, the original Internet), but it's also good to know 
> when those things should become private.
> 
> Not Exactly ObTrav: I firmly believe that instead of spending 
> money on the Space Shuttle, the government should be spending 
> on an initiative to get companies to build a low cost means 
> to get into orbit.  Any idea that could work should be on the 
> table.  Companies should get incentives for working in 
> space.  We need to get off this rock and make money, instead 
> of doing science in a tin can in orbit.

This would only work if there were viable companies that actually 
had some desire to do any form of space industry.  This is not true. 
Space is regarded (rightly) as pretty risky and (IMHO wrongly) as 
pie-in-the-sky by pretty much any large corporation you can name.  
The L-5 folks tried to get various companies interested in solar 
power sats in the 70s and early 80s and we all see where *that* 
went.

IMHO, until both the costs and the the risks are reduced *and* the 
government gives serious inventives, we will see no private space 
industry.  I'm also guessing that costs and risks will only be 
significantly reduced when NASA (or some other national space 
agency) builds a nice large space station that various companies 
can simply more their operations into.

Sadly, the only private individuals who are working hard to get into 
space are pretty darn fringe (like the nut out in Eastern Oregon who 
is building his own personal suborbital rocket) and none of them 
have enough money to make a descent show of it.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 15:06:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 14:06:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
In-Reply-To: <3CC3930A.D2B8F94D@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20423.134050.0q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Richard Wilson writes:
>>So this is the reason that starports are on the planet's surface and 
>>highports aren't as common.
>
> http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%7B1F54AEED-A34B-41
> 1B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D
>
> JOY! Hydrogen wells! JOY! That will make the Downports in systems
> without gas giants or other significant surface water so much easier to
> deal with. I can see it now...

Thing is, worlds without significant surface water may not have much
subsurface hydrogen. After all, it's the water that the bacteria *make*
the hydrogen from.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 15:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 14:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>; from trav@RPGRealms.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:24:51PM -0400
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com> <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net> <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <20020423153918.A6692@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:24:51PM -0400, Hunter Gordon wrote:
> 
> While the suit may or may not end up thrown out in the long run,
> personally I don't have the time, resources, or desire to deal with
> the possibility.

This makes me sad--that someone cannot do something which is perfectly
alright for fear of having to defend its rightness.

Of course, Mr. Miller could always state in his license terms that
Traveller licensees can only be compatible with him and themselves,
not with one another.  _That_ would be quite proper, although I'm not
certain why he'd do it.  Perhaps to ensure a market for his own books,
or something.

Incidentally, can anyone tell me if GT or T20 is required to be
compatible with Miller's future work?  By which I mean will the
licensees be required to print conversions, or is Miller explicitly
allowed to print his own?  Just curious.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
  Anulos qui animum ostendunt omnes gestemus!
  Let's all wear mood rings!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 23 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
References: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <20020424075041.A7785@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mike West wrote:
> What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain
> in order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?

That depends very much on the planets.  Their orbits could actually
overlap in distance, like those of Pluto and Neptune.  Such an
arrangement can be quite stable, because each planet keeps the other
one in position with resonance effects.  In such a case, one planet
has an orbital period that is (on average) an exact ratio of the
other, e.g. 3:2.

It's probably not even too uncommon an arrangement: despite our
current inability to detect any but the largest planets about other
stars, we have already found one system with two planets having orbits
that are not very far apart.


>  The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a
> distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.
> Can that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU)
> without affecting Mire's orbit?

Well, not without *affecting* the other's orbit, since every planet
affects every other in some small way.  Without disrupting the other,
certainly.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:06:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:06:08 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <3CC499EA.1020901@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20423.140845.6w2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> D&D may not have been pure in a mechanical sense, but like BASIC, and 
> 'You have SPAM!' it is now the de-facto standard of comparison..the 
> reason it got there is because it was 'the fustest with the mostest'.
>
> (says an old-timer who remembers back when 'September on the Net' 
> actually meant that it was, indeed, September...ahh those halcyon 
> pre-AOL, pre-Prodigy, pre-Compuserv days...)

Actually, I was on the Net before Compuserve had access to it. And on
Compuserve as well. They weren't all that bad. The sysopsa on the
Forums mostly kept folks in line. 

AOL on the other hand...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:14:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:14:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020423153918.A6692@4dv.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>
 <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <20020423153918.A6692@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <200204231817330495.D3087258@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>> While the suit may or may not end up thrown out in the long run,
>> personally I don't have the time, resources, or desire to deal with
>> the possibility.
>
>This makes me sad--that someone cannot do something which is perfectly
>alright for fear of having to defend its rightness.

Yes but unfortunately in today's environment, it is all too likely to=
 occur. Good IP attorneys are ungodly expensive, a realization I have=
 already had to deal with more than once since I entered this business.

>Of course, Mr. Miller could always state in his license terms that
>Traveller licensees can only be compatible with him and themselves,
>not with one another.  _That_ would be quite proper, although I'm not
>certain why he'd do it.  Perhaps to ensure a market for his own books,
>or something.

That is something I doubt Marc would ever considered.

>Incidentally, can anyone tell me if GT or T20 is required to be
>compatible with Miller's future work?  By which I mean will the
>licensees be required to print conversions, or is Miller explicitly
>allowed to print his own?  Just curious.

I can't speak for GT, but I assume they have a license similar to our own=
 in which we are not required to be compatible with future work by Marc.=
 Then again it would not need to be required in our case as I would happily=
 add stats to support any new material by Marc if he wished us to do so. It=
 was my choice to include CT stats (with Marc's ok) and material in our=
 products, not something required by my license. I just wanted to also=
 support CT and the reprints. 






From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:33:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:33:29 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <00cf01c1eb16$c0dab0d0$a3e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C1EB1F.0FF78DC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Okay, I asked this before but all my mail is gone in the great HD =
explosion.

I need a cover for the Diaspora Phoenix novel; there's not money =
available. We have a mockup of the cover but the actual pic needs to be =
done. Anyone care to help out?


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses

------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C1EB1F.0FF78DC0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Okay, I asked this before but all my =
mail is gone=20
in the great HD explosion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I need a cover for the Diaspora Phoenix =
novel;=20
there's not money available. We have a mockup of the cover but the =
actual pic=20
needs to be done. Anyone care to help out?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C1EB1F.0FF78DC0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
References: <3CC55510.8412.A77E03@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC5E36E.801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Well the importance of even centurions in much of that strife argues 
> for them being considered officers - very few coups in the modern world 
> are started and managed by sergeants.

Au contraire. A number of coups in Africa have been started by Non-coms. 
IIRC one of the Liberian coup leaders started as a Master Sergeant, 
wasn't he? Robert someting or another...

Also, I believe it was a number of Non-coms who started one of the coups 
against Noriega in Panama, just before the US invasion.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:47:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:47:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423165307.DA28C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020423153147.00a543e0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:19:04 -0600, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

>Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
>nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
>but it's an interesting way to look at it.

Well, that follows naturally from the idea that every adult should own and 
carry a gun.

Unfortunately, this kind of situation (at either scale) seems to require 
people who aren't stupid.  While the increased selection pressures may or 
may not eventually produce such a population, I don't think I'd like to 
experience the weeding-out process, any more than I'd like to live in his 
Coventry.  I /like/ civilization, thank you very much.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <02042316460813.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <001001c1eb19$a772e880$0f01a8c0@terry>

> After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on
video
> (hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net
> seems
> utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found
was
> a
> Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters).
> 
> Anyone have any clue?

It seems there is some discussion on the matter. Check out this link.

http://ravensbranch.tripod.com/galacticasize.html

Regards,

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020423153147.00a543e0@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231558080.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Kelly St.Clair wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:19:04 -0600, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> 
> >Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
> >nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
> >but it's an interesting way to look at it.
> 
> Well, that follows naturally from the idea that every adult should own and 
> carry a gun.
> 
Yes, but...

Guns can kill one person.  A firefight, even a large one, is over when
it's over, although some gunshot wounds don't kill immediately.

Nukes don't work that way.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:12:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020423153147.00a543e0@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <20020423165307.DA28C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423190649.00cb5d28@192.168.0.1>

At 03:40 PM 4/23/2002 -0700, Kelly St.Clair wrote:
>On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:19:04 -0600, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>>Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
>>nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
>>but it's an interesting way to look at it.
>Well, that follows naturally from the idea that every adult should own and 
>carry a gun.
>Unfortunately, this kind of situation (at either scale) seems to require 
>people who aren't stupid.  While the increased selection pressures may or 
>may not eventually produce such a population, I don't think I'd like to 
>experience the weeding-out process, any more than I'd like to live in his 
>Coventry.  I /like/ civilization, thank you very much.

I just finished reading Coventry.  Coventry was his "your right to swing 
your fist ends at someone else's nose" system.
That was America after the Second Revolution, that was civilization.
If you rejected Coventry or were denied Coventry, you were sent to the 
walled off section where the strong ruled the weak.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17A35@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

The emphatically polite Larsen:
Either that or barracks ashore for ALL personnel.  The SSNs and SSBNs have
always housed their crews ashore when the vessel is in port.  The rest of
the Navy should do the same.  Putting up with cramped living conditions
would be tolerable during deployments IF you knew you'd be returning to
barracks back in port.  As it stands now, most naval personnel live in the
factories where they work.

Mikey:
Australian DOD has always had onshore quarters for Naval personnel, or
provided rent subsidies and the like to live in town (where appropriate).
That's weird the US DOD does not...

Oh my god. 

That means Australia is more advanced than the US in Naval Living Conditions

Permission to shout bravo at an annoyingly loud volume!

PS I had a tour of our Freemantle class Patrol Boats. Apparently the washing
machines, which were designed to use sea water, never really worked so a
crewman gets saddled with laundromat duty when they pull into port, which is
only once every 6-8 weeks, and has to wash almost all the clothing of the
ship's company. They all wear these overall things and often for many days
at a time. As a civilian I often find it hard to comprehend the privations
these people have to deal with which is why it is easy for me to call them
sir or ma'am - cause they sure as hell have earned it. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <02042318594616.03729@avlendris>
References: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
 <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020423183217.00ac19d8@mail.earthlink.net>

At 06:59 PM 4/23/2002 +0100, Brian Caball wrote:
>On Tuesday 23 April 2002 17:04, William Lane wrote:
> > I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 (in fact
> > i try to pretend it never happened.)
>
>
>I think we all did that ;->

IMHO, there was precisely 1 good episode of Galactica 1980, "The Return of 
Starbuck".

Of course, IIRC it was actually an unfilmed Battlestar episode

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:41:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:41:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net>
References: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca> <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

>There are things for which it makes sense that they be state-run
>(e.g. power & water distribution, roads &c.) but not state-subsidised
>(i.e. you pay for what you burn/drink/whatever).=20

Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
bathing and sanitation...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:59:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:59:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231653550.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Stephen Tempest wrote:

> "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:
> 
> >There are things for which it makes sense that they be state-run
> >(e.g. power & water distribution, roads &c.) but not state-subsidised
> >(i.e. you pay for what you burn/drink/whatever). 
> 
> Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> bathing and sanitation...

You can lead a man to water, but can you make him bathe?

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:03:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:03:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>; from tml@stempest.demon.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000
References: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca> <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net> <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020423175758.A7026@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> 
> Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> bathing and sanitation...

That means you want the rest of the state to fund your desire to live
where it's expensive (those subsidies have to come from somewhere).
That's hardly a good thing.

Better to let living in the overcrowded city become as expensive as it
is, and then watch as people leave, thereby easing crowding.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Cloning forces us to ask some hard questions.  For example,
which person, the original or the clone, gets to wear the
goatee and be evil?                    --Stewart Nicholls

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:15:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:15:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423175758.A7026@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>

Robert A. Uhl writes:
> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > 
> > Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> > would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> > bathing and sanitation...
> 
> That means you want the rest of the state to fund your desire to live
> where it's expensive (those subsidies have to come from somewhere).

Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
being paid for by the occupants of the city.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:29:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:29:41 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8eb83b1f99b@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:49 AM -0700 4/23/02, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>This kind of economic system will ONLY work if no one has a "shit job".
>
>If I had my druthers I would spend every day writing.  I might or might
>not make any money on it, but that's what I'd do.  I do not work as a
>physicians' administrative assistant for the sheer pleasure of it.  It's
>annoying and boring much of the time, even though I believe in what we are
>doing here.

This is correct.

A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more people living on 
public assistance.  (It may not be 50%, but it will depend on what 
the level is set at).

What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a 
fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who 
think they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to 
complain that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and 
agitate for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact 
that lead to such a system in the first place, since the rationale 
that supports it can be easily used to support increases, and whether 
society wants to try and "buy" them off).

There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family 
(?).  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those 
who went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this 
is the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of 
"non-working" class in Europe....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <02042316460813.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020424002902.17680.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> wrote:
> Hey Guys
> 
> After a friend got the entirety of season 1
> Battlestar Galactica on video 
> (hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of
> the ship. The 'net seems 
> utterly void of technical specs or what have you:
> the best i've found was a 
> Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters). 
> 
> Anyone have any clue?
> 
> -Brian
> 
> 
  >>
  FOR SHAME!!!!

  BSG has a very strong 'cult' following online. try
these sites:

http://www.battlestargalactica.com/ This is Richard
Hatch/Capt Apollo's site. He's pretty much the leading
light of the effort to revive the series;

http://www.tecr.com/galactica/index.html This is the
BSG Tech Site; there are some oddities in his science,
but it's pretty good, all the same;

http://www.bsgtigger.com/stories/bsgfan.html
http://www.bsgtigger.com/stories/bsgcross.html
These two are strictly fanfic sites, aka, a
conglomeration of people who love the show, and love
to write.

It gets a little stronger every year, as more people
rediscover it, or find it for the first time.

ON RANT

And, yes, although most of the fans feel sorry for the
actors/writers, et al, from '1980', it is almost
universally despised and ignored. 

From the pilots' first airing, it stayed in the top 20
until it was canc'd.

I swear, network tv could never get it's act together.
When ABC canc'd BSG, they replaced it with 'Mork &
Mindy', which was doing pretty well at the time; not
even Robin Williams could save that time slot. 

1980 was aired 6 weeks after ABC called Glenn Larsen
into their offices and gave him the green light for a
new season...as long as it was ready in 6 weeks. 

Now, you know why '1980' sucked so bad.

OFF RANT

MACessna
  >>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:37:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:37:38 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <001001c1eb19$a772e880$0f01a8c0@terry>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204240954460.7432-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:

 Fantastic subject and at least IMTU it is not OT. As i incorporated much
from that show for MU. In fact the concept of a Battle Star flaoting
around popping in and out of jump space or seen as ships leave or enter.
Like a ghost ship. Has been a running part. My 3I has any site where
Colonial artifacts are found as a red zone.

 Oh yes i have an original Viper model and the rocket. Both in need of
repair. Bought the Galactica at a con a while back. Still in the box. Yeah
I even have a few hundred of the trading cards. Was/am a big fan of the
show. FWIW I talked to some members of the fan club right after they had
returned from the IIRC 15th anniversary con in Calif. They were at OryCon
tht year. Acording to what I was told. Glen doesn't like the 1980 either
and most fans disregard it as never happening. Best they will call it is
"Galacta-spit"

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:41:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:41:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost> <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:20:37 -0700 (PDT), Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
>great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
>money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
>putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
>retiring tomorrow.  While I don't know where all the
>money went, I know that much went to pork barrel, and
>some went to folks who never paid that much in.
>
><SNIP>

Actually, the Social Security fund was never intended to operate in
the manner you state.  Your "Instead" is, in fact, the way it was
intended to operate from the start.  If that hadn't been the case,
Social Security wouldn't have been able to start paying benefits at
its inception.

That original structure was founded on the idea that the pool of
wage-earning taxpayers would always exceed the pool of recipients.  As
the US went through the demographic surge known as the Baby Boom, the
pool of taxpayers expanded greatly while the pool of Social Security
retirees wasn't greatly increasing.

With that large surge of money going into the system, it represented
an irresistible opportunity to the politicians to expand the benefits,
which is exactly what they did (arguably, not too much of a pork
barrel).  Further, the US government also changed the law to allow use
of the Social Security surplus to pay for some of the Reagan deficits
(which, depending upon your viewpoint, might be where the bulk of the
pork might be found).

Now, as the members of the Baby Boom start approaching retirement,
there are fewer members of the pool of wage-earning taxpayers who are
paying to support a demographic bulge of retirees.  Had the government
instead simply banked the surplus at a modest interest rate, it would
not be seeing the oncoming retirement crisis (instead, we would have
had a different crisis some time ago).

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:53:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:53:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <20020424000942.7DBCE27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020424000942.7DBCE27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <27vbcu01a2v6aa5bssq5jr9je1trnjboi5@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:03:51 -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
wrote:

>Where on earth is it that people pay $400 USD for a palm pilot?  I don't
>have one, but I have never heard of anyone paying that much for one.

Except for the wireless-enabled Palms, they don't cost that much - but the
high-end Sony Cli (a licensed PalmOS box) does retail for that kind of
money.


--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:56:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:56:10 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>

From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au>

     "Australian DOD has always had onshore quarters for Naval personnel, or 
provided rent subsidies and the like to live in town (where appropriate).  
That's weird the US DOD does not..."


Mr. Hughes,

     The US DOD provides shore housing or rent subsidies for married naval 
personnel or those with children.  It's the single folk who get the sticky 
end.  In some low rent areas, single crew are able to club together and rent 
apartments or homes.  Alas, USS California's home port was NAS Alameda, 
smack dab in the middle of the SF Bay area.

     "Oh my god.  That means Australia is more advanced than the US in Naval 
Living Conditions.  Permission to shout bravo at an annoyingly loud volume!"

     Permission gladly granted!  Oz is more advanced than the World's 
Biggest Banana Republic in many areas, brewing comes first to mind.

     "...a crewman gets saddled with laundromat duty when they pull into 
port, which is only once every 6-8 weeks, and has to wash almost all the 
clothing of the ship's company. They all wear these overall things and often 
for many days at a time."

     Good grief!  Sounds as if those PBs could be detected by odor alone!  
The 42 young men in my berthing compartment had laundry done twice weekly.  
Three or four days worth of skivvies, socks, and dungarees can get rather 
"high".  Pa Whipsnade, a Korean police action vet, visited my berthing area 
once and described it succintly; "Feet and flatulence."  He professed to 
prefer any one of several foxholes he dug.

ObTrav - Why aren't stewards paid more?  Providing creature comforts for 
crew and passengers surely must be very important.  Good stewards control 
morale in the uniformed services and can lure paying high passengers to your 
nondescript Beowulf.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEODMAA.tml@downport.com>

Whether intentional or not, it still fits the textbook definition of a ponzi
scheme. And a bad idea from the start. The fact that it got bigger and
messier just follows as the night the day. Putting money away in
interest-bearing accounts would be even worse. The best thing we could do is
end the program, encourage retirement savings, roll the cost of phasing it
out into the general fund and be done with it. While we're at it, phase out
the rest of the federal retirement system and send it all private. At least
if the politicians and bureaucrats had their cookies in the jar with ours
they might be more apt to keep an eye on the Enrons and Arthur-Andersens out
there, instead of being in bed with them.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of JR Holmes
>
> Actually, the Social Security fund was never intended to operate in
> the manner you state.  Your "Instead" is, in fact, the way it was
> intended to operate from the start.  If that hadn't been the case,
> Social Security wouldn't have been able to start paying benefits at
> its inception.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700
References: <20020423175758.A7026@4dv.net> <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020423190732.A7743@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
> being paid for by the occupants of the city.

Then why subsidise?  You're forcing the well-off to pay for water and
electricity for the less well-off.  To an extent this may be
appropriate, but I wonder to what extent, exactly.  Anyone deserves
enough water for drinking to keep from dying and bathing to keep
leprosy at bay, but any more than that should be on a pay-as-you-go
basis.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and writing an exact
man.                                                            --Bacon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 12:39:15AM +0000
References: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423191108.B7743@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 12:39:15AM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> 
>      Permission gladly granted!  Oz is more advanced than the World's 
> Biggest Banana Republic in many areas, brewing comes first to mind.

?!?  Come visit Colorado sometime.  I'll take you on a tour of
breweries to make any man of refined taste want to move here.  And I
am given to understand that Oregon is our superior.

Whereas the Australian homebrewers I've encountered have uniformly
lamented the qulity of the local beer, and admitted that they--or at
least their countrymen--are most interested in brewing a high-proof
product.

> ObTrav - Why aren't stewards paid more?

Does the IN have stewards?  Ours got rid of them:-(

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There is no problem which cannot be solved by the judicious application
of firepower.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC6AF7A.14446.75EB6C@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 9:20, Paul Walker wrote:

> The welfare system should exist for two reasons,
> helping those who can't work to survive, and
> encouraging those who can work to do so. 
> Unfortunately, that is not what government officials
> use it for.  They use it as a kick-back for votes. (I
> do confess to a US-centric view of politics, but I
> would imagine it is similar.)

That doesn't seem to happen here, even tough beneficaries are a 
significant portion of the electorate. In fact the usual way of using 
them to get votes is to come up with a new way a shafting the 
unemployed without it looking like you are.

> Because the government will be likely to take more
> than they need.  Someone will present the idea that we
> can't lower the poverty level but we may not get
> enough taxes to pay next year, so we better take a
> little extra to ensure that we can pay the poverty
> level in the future.  Not to mention that we need to
> take in more taxes for our pork barrel.  
> 
> I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
> great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
> money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
> putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
> retiring tomorrow.  While I don't know where all the
> money went, I know that much went to pork barrel, and
> some went to folks who never paid that much in.

With that sort of thing it's no wonder your tax rates are highish, the 
US social spending is immense and yet in some ways there is less to 
show for it than here is in the UK, even though the US is much 
wealthier.
 
> Maybe I'm not making sense.  Suffice it to say, that I
> don't trust the government to make the right
> decisions, and the negative tax seems to put much
> trust in the government to make the right decisions.

As far as I can see it doesn't do anything that the current systems 
don't (both here and in the US) - it just does it in a more direct and 
traceable way.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:20:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:20:56 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

As an infantryman, I remember my first "short" field 
exercise, in which I didn't get a real bath or have clothes 
laundered for a mere 20 days (I've been without a bath or 
clothes washed in the field for as long as three months).

After I returned to the barracks (to "raise morale" the 
colonel had the idea that we would march back; I thought the 
real reason was to save fuel costs for the helicopters).  
This was only about 10 miles, but you work up a good sweat 
that acts like "gravy" on smelly clothes.

My roommate got back first (we were two men in a three-man 
room).  He had time to throw his stuff in the washers and get 
a shower before I got back.  He then stopped me at the 
door. "Take off your s__t out there, and then come in and get 
a shower.  You're not bringing that smelly s__t in here."

I had to run my clothes through the washer three times before 
the water would rinse clear - it was nearly solid black the 
first time around.  After I had taken my shower, the clothes 
smelled like a dead animal.  And the socks -- well, they had 
turned from issue green to black, with stuff growing on them.

After the three month stint with no bath, I just threw the 
uniforms away - the stench was incredible.

I've woken up frozen to the ground in the morning, and I've 
been hidden well enough that passing soldiers took a leak on 
me.  Twice.  (tip: never hide under the edge of bushes, 
because men feel compelled to piss there) 

Having to live with foot odor and flatulence doesn't sound so 
bad.

ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you 
can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes 
about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people 
in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek 
across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be 
more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a 
plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful 
smell to the unwashed.
________________
Employees smoking
Off company property
I'm doing their work

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:13:54PM -0400
References: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423192811.A8321@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:13:54PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> After the three month stint with no bath, I just threw the 
> uniforms away - the stench was incredible.

I wonder how much of that was a side-effect of the exertion you must
have udnergone.  I ask because as a Scout I and my brothers noted that
several camp staffers were rather proud of not showering all summer.
The pattern we detected was that for the first few days there was no
problem, then for the next several weeks they reeked to high heaven
and then they began to _lose_ the smell.  In fact, they began to smell
more like the environment than aught else.

But they _did_ launder their clothes.  So perhaps that makes a
difference.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
That's how you know you're hooked on something; when it makes you forget
to drink beer.                     --Paul Mather, commenting on The Sims

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>The pattern we detected was that for the first few days 
>there was no problem, then for the next several weeks they 
>reeked to high heaven and then they began to _lose_ the 
>smell.  In fact, they began to smell more like the 
>environment than aught else.
>

Well, until I washed when I got back, that was the case.  
After a few weeks, I couldn't smell myself, and I don't think 
that anyone could really smell me, unlike the people who 
smelled like soap.

I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago, 
and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how 
you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin 
gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.

________________
Employees smoking
Off company property
I'm doing their work

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:58:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:58:16 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:46:21PM -0400
References: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423195559.A9418@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:46:21PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> Well, until I washed when I got back, that was the case.  
> After a few weeks, I couldn't smell myself, and I don't think 
> that anyone could really smell me, unlike the people who 
> smelled like soap.

I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head hurts:-(

> I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago, 
> and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how 
> you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin 
> gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.

Interesting.  I don't think I'm ever going to get a chance to test any
of this out, though...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I once successfully declined a departmental retreat, saying that on that
day I planned instead to advance.                    --Alan J. Rosenthal

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <00cf01c1eb16$c0dab0d0$a3e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8EB60FE.39D2%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

And I'm also a  full time idiot - sorry about that post everybody.

Joe Webb 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head 
>hurts:-(
>
After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless 
they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which 
case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.

My roommate could smell me when I came back, after he had 
bathed.  

In the field after a few weeks, I could smell bathed people 
at a considerable distance if they were upwind of me.  But it 
didn't work the other way for them (if I was upwind of them).
________________
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:14:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:14:28 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
References: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV32IKcQEF2a9jE11o0001c2c0@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon wrote,

>I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago,
and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how
you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin
gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.<

That is one of my favorite movie lines.
As you note, he was joking. He was asked why he didn't bathe. His response
was that body oils, combined with sweat and dirt formed a natural barrier to
water. (He was dirty because he didn't bathe, he didn't bathe because he was
going to get dirty in a trench anyway.)
Later in the movie when they come upon a group of female Soviet soldiers, he
climbs into a hot tub with one of them fully clothed.

A really fun movie.
:)


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:18:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:18:32 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <B8EB60FE.39D2%jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B8EB62AD.39D7%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

on 4/23/02 7:05 PM, Joe Webb at jwwebb@earthlink.net wrote:

> And I'm also a  full time idiot - sorry about that post everybody.
> 
> Joe Webb 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

OK, idiot that is too fast on the draw - the original post that shouldn't
have gone was bounced.

So return to your home folks, nothing to see here (unless you count somebody
slinking under a rock a sight to see).

Joe Webb


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/23/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you
> can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes
> about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people
> in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek
> across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be
> more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a
> plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful
> smell to the unwashed.

An excellent point.  Which is why some hunters use MOPP gear to hide their
own scent.  I was always partial to Shaklee's Basic-H.  One of those
biodegradable soaps that proto-enviornmentalists (like my parents) used in
the late '70.  I don't even know if it's made anymore.  But it had no scent.
I carefully hoarded my supply for years.

(A quick search of the web shows it's still out there, though it looks
different).

I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

I've never had anyone pee on me, but I have had an unhappy policeman step
close enough to me that I could plainly make out the stitching on his Corfam
shoe in the middle of the night.  Camouflage does work.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:43:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:43:16 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8EB6984.582B5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/23/02 7:07 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> "Robert A. Uhl" says
>> 
>> I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head
>> hurts:-(
>> 
> After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless
> they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which
> case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.
> 
> My roommate could smell me when I came back, after he had
> bathed.  
> 
> In the field after a few weeks, I could smell bathed people
> at a considerable distance if they were upwind of me.  But it
> didn't work the other way for them (if I was upwind of them).

The amazing power of the nose.  After a while, it doesn't smell the stinks
it's around, but can easily detect new smells.  Quite an engineering marvel.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Combined Gurps/Megatraveller Year 1116(Long)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F110VniSnRMWuL0000016a@hotmail.com>

For your reading pleasure, I've combined the timelines from Gurps Traveller 
& Megatraveller. This is for the Year 1116, with the rest of the years 
following shortly.

Graham

========================================================================
GURPS TRAVELLER / MEGATRAVELLER TIMELINE COMPARISON.

Year: 1116

Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                           131-1116	(GURPS)
FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH

Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian was killed today when his personal gig was 
destroyed in a massive explosion of unknown origin. The gig was inbound to 
the palace from Dulinor's flagship, the cruiser Sargon, when it failed to 
change course in response to traffic control instructions, and then vanished 
in a massive fireball while in deep space.

Craft were immediately dispatched from Sargon to search for survivors, and 
were soon joined by vessels of the Imperial Navy. Search and rescue 
operations continue, but searchers acknowledge that the extremely violent 
nature of the explosion make th e possibility of any survivors increasingly 
small.

The archduke was en route to an audience with the Emperor, the subject of 
which was not available at press time. Emperor Strephon has ordered the 
Imperial Navy to take charge of a full investigation of the explosion in 
cooperation with other authorities, and has ordered Sargon and her crew into 
quarantine at the Imperial Naval base at Capital for the duration of the 
investigation. Naval vessels are in the process of tracking down any and all 
vessels that were in the area and have ordered tapes of all communications 
to and from the gig subjected to the most rigorous analysis.

The Emperor expressed his deep sadness at the news, and has sent a formal 
proclamation of his condolences to the people of the Domain of Ilelish and a 
private letter to Dulinor's wife and daughter. Funeral arrangements for the 
Archduke have not been announced.

Also killed in the blast were the Archduke's Naval aide Volante Imprey, the 
crew of the gig, and a number of other individuals. A full list of victims 
is not available at this time.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                           132-1116	(GURPS)

In a tersely-worded press release issued today, General Mueni Arap Rutan, 
commanding officer of the Imperial Guard, announced that Colonel Hiroshi 
Enera, commander of the Ilelish Regiment of the Imperial Guard, and three 
other officers of the same regimen t have submitted their resignations to 
the Emperor, effective immediately.

None of the officers could be reached for comment, and General Rutan refused 
to comment further except to say that the officers involved had all cited 
personal reasons for their resignations.

The Ilelish Regiment was serving its normal month-long period as honor 
guards in the Imperial palace when the resignations occurred, and continues 
to serve in that position. No replacements have been appointed to the 
vacancies thus created - the regiment is currently the personal command of 
General Rutan. A political motivation for the resignations is suspected, but 
no comments from anyone involved have been forthcoming.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 132-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Emperor Strephon Aella Alkhalikoi was assassinated at 1517 hours local time, 
132-1116, in the Grand Reception Hall of the Imperial Palace above 
Capital/Core. In the ensuing firefight, the Empress Iolanthe and the Grand 
Princess Iphegenia were also killed, along with the Aslan Yerlyaruiwo 
ambassador, twelve Imperial Guards, and a number of bystanders.

In the following minutes, Archduke Dulinor of Ilelish appeared before the 
cameras of the Reception Hall, claimed the crown of the Emperor by the right 
of assassination, and scattered holocrystals documenting his claim to the 
surviving crowd. He ascended the steps of the dais and sat on the iridium 
Throne briefly before leaving in the company of his bodyguard.

System Control Central reported tracking the Archduke's cruiser leaving the 
Capital system minutes later. Fleet elements are reported in pursuit.

Capital has been placed under martial law. Off-planet transportation has 
been suspended temporarily. Naval headquarters has issued a statement that 
the situation is stable and under control. Rioting is reported in the city.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 133-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The Imperial Palace above Capital has been sealed by Naval Security troops. 
Dulinor is rumored to remain concealed in the palace with a company of 
bodyguards. It remains unclear whether Dulinor fled the Capital system 
yesterday aboard his cruiser, or if he remains in the Palace. Occasional 
plasma flashes have been reported along the Grand Concourse.

Imperial officers at the scene refused comment.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 134-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Captain Sir Gerals Spirlandin, commanding the Honor Company of the 2nd 
Imperial Marine regiment, denied reports that Duke Varian, Strephon's nephew 
and heir apparent to the Iridium Throne, was killed in skirmishes within the 
Imperial Palace yesterday.

Spirlandin, 32, of Ibaru/Zarushagar, said, "The situation is under control, 
but identities of persons in the Palace remain unconfirmed."

News Service personnel have not yet been allowed inside the Palace.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 135-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Preparations for Emperor Strephon's funeral tomorrow continued without 
incident. Empress Iolanthe will be buried at the same time. Grand Princess 
Iphegenia will be buried Thirday.

The Admiralty confirmed today that the Imperial Palace has been cleared of 
disloyal elements. The apartments accorded Dulinor in the Palace have been 
retaken, with no sign of the Archduke.

The body of Prince Varian, until today heir apparent to the Iridium Throne, 
was recovered from the Imperial Palace this afternoon, and now lies in state 
alongside the Emperor in the central Hall of Nobles beneath the Moot Spire. 
Varian's funeral is scheduled for Thirday.

Crowds of mourners continue to file through the Hall of Nobles. Responding 
to the press of crowds, last minute arrangements have been made to keep the 
hall open through the night.

The Office of the Mint has suspended production of the cr1 coin pending 
coronation of the next Emperor. A generic sunburst design has been adopted 
as a temporary replacement.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 136-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Emperor Strephon and Empress Iolanthe were buried today with full state 
honors. The procession from the Hall of Nobles to the Alkhalikhoi section of 
the Imperial Park in the shadow of the Palace moved slowly and without 
incident.

Prince Lucan, Varian's younger brother, and now heir apparent to the throne, 
appeared briefly at grave side, leaving under heavy security immediately 
after the ceremony.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 137-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Following simple burial ceremonies for Grand Princess Iphegenia and Prince 
Varian, the Office of the Emperor today announced that Prince Lucan had 
formally ascended the Iridium Throne in private ceremonies in the Imperial 
Palace.

Shortly thereafter, Duke Simalr of Ushra, speaking for the Moot, charged 
that private ascension ceremonies are invalid, adding that any assumption of 
the powers of the Imperium requires the consent of the Moot.

Emperor Lucan, communicating through his seneschal, exercised the Imperial 
power to dissolve the Moot for one year. Duke Simalr of Ushra, speaking for 
the Moot, denied the legitimacy of Lucan's action in a strongly worded reply 
which was released simultaneously to the news services.

A meeting of the Moot later in the day failed to achieve a quorum. Duke 
Simalr is reported under house arrest.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                           137-1116	(GURPS)

Informed sources at the palace say that Emperor Strephon will appoint two 
new Archdukes in the coming year: Lady Isis Arepo Ilethian will be appointed 
archduchess of Ilelish, succeeding her father, the late Archduke Dulinor. 
Duke Norris Aella Alledon will be appointed the first Archduke of Deneb.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                         137-1116	(GURPS)

Prince Varian Paulo Alkhalikoi, nephew of the Emperor Strephon, announced 
today that he has decided to leave Capital on an extended vacation from the 
Imperial court.

"Life at the Imperial Court is a wondrous experience," said the prince, 
"however, I feel that I am missing an even more wondrous and varied 
experience to be had by getting away from the pressures of the palace and 
seeing more of the various societies and cultures that make up the Imperium. 
I hope to spend some time getting to know a few of the 11,000 worlds a 
little better." Varian announced no itinerary, but said he plans to try to 
travel incognito to the greatest extent possible.

The Emperor has not commented officially on his nephew's announcement, but 
indicated privately that he feels that travel cannot but help to improve 
anyone's character. Varian's brother Lucan has chosen to remain at court, 
and refused to comment on his brother's announcement, other than to wish him 
a safe journey.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                         140-1116	(GURPS)

In separate proclamations issued today, the Emperor appointed Lady Isis 
Arepo Ilethian of Dlan as Archduchess of Ilelish, and Duke Norris Aella 
Alledon of Regina as Archduke of Deneb. Formal investiture will take place 
at the palace on 001-1117. Both candidates will be present, and the Emperor 
will personally invest them with the regalia of their office, an unusual 
occurrence in view of the vast distances involved. Special task forces of 
the Imperial Navy have been dispatched to Dlan and Regina to escort the 
candidates to Capital.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                         145-1116	(GURPS)

Admiral Jori Mallory hault-Viswanath of the Imperial Navy's public relations 
branch announced today that the Navy was pursuing a number of lines of 
investigation into the explosion that killed Archduke Dulinor Astrin 
Ilethian fourteen days ago. "In cooperation with other agencies, we are 
concentrating massive resources on the investigation of the incident. We 
have recovered fragments amounting to over three-quarters of the gig (the 
largest massing over 8500 kilos, the smallest less than 200 grams) and are 
subjecting them to the most rigorous possible forensic examination. The 
gig's maintenance records have been fully examined, and every member of the 
crew of Dulinor's flagship Sargon has been interrogated. We have tracked 
down every craft that was in the near vicinity for twelve hours before and 
after the explosion. We are still not certain whether we are investigating 
an act of terrorism, a multiple homicide, or a freak accident."

Asked about the possibility that the explosion was an assassination, Admiral 
hault-Viswanath remarked that while that possibility cannot be eliminated, 
there is no direct evidence of any assassination plot. "That is one of 
several lines of investigation being actively pursued." he said, "We have 
orders from the highest level to investigate every possibility, no matter 
how remote."

Asked if remains of any of the victims of the massive explosion had been 
recovered, Admiral hault-Viswanath stated that while fragmentary remains had 
been found, none had been positively identified as those of the Archduke. 
Asked if this was unusual, other sources responded that in explosions of 
this size and power, it is unusual to find any remains at all, let alone 
anything substantial.



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               152-1116	(GURPS)

The monthly changing of the guard at the Imperial Palace took place today, 
but palace watchers say the ceremony is a little late. Imperial guard 
uniforms all look pretty much alike, especially to those unfamiliar with 
them, but a local military enthusiast whose hobby is Imperial uniforms says 
the differences are like night and day, and to her trained eyes, the Antares 
guard has been on duty for almost three weeks.

"It is fairly easy to pick out the Aslan, " says Minaro hault-Yunami, author 
of Uniforms and Equipment of the Imperial Guard, 1080-1110, " and the 
Marines are in maroon, so they stick out too. But the difference between 
Antares and Illelish is in certain details of the collar tabs and shoulder 
boards, which are pretty hard to pick out on the video screen." How does 
Minaro, who has access only to the same videos of the court as the rest of 
us ordinary citizens, know the difference?

"Every day when the Emperor enters the Long Hall on his way to the Iridium 
throne, he is preceded by an honor party of the guard. On the first day of 
the week, the honor party always wears battle dress instead of the normal 
full dress uniform. The Illelish Guard's battle dress has a black stripe 
outlining their right plastron - the Antares Guard is blank. It's a subtle 
difference, but it's there for anyone with halfway decent eyes."

What does it all mean? "It's a speculation, but I think the Ilelish Guard 
were pulled from duty so they could mourn their Archduke. It's highly 
unusual, but it's not completely unknown. The last time something like this 
happened was in the reign of Arbellatra in 632."


Jewell/Spinward Marches (1106-A777999-C)                  158-1116	(GURPS)

After months of investigation, the Office of the Judge Advocate General for 
the Imperial Navy has dismissed charges of war profiteering brought against 
Gishan Ryan Khaasira. A spokesperson for the JAG Office stated that "we have 
found no evidence to support the accusations made by certain individuals 
concerning the activities of former Lt. Khaasira during the Fifth Frontier 
War. As such, our investigation has ended and we consider the matter 
closed."

Gishan Khaasira is a former Naval intelligence officer who transferred to 
Supply after the ship on which he served, the Agidda, suffered heavy damage 
from a Zhodani attack. Khaasira then spent the remainder of the war working 
as an aide to the Quartermaster-General, Admiral Rafael Sukhamaran. It is 
because of the mysterious disappearance of several shipments of supplies 
during his tenure there that unnamed sources pointed the finger at him.

While the JAG Office has now officially cleared Lt. Khaasira of all 
wrongdoing, he has elected to resign his commission from the Navy. Khaasira 
cited the deaths of his sister during the war and of his father recently as 
the reasons for his resignation. He intends to return home and use his 
skills to rebuild his family's merchant business after years of hard times.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 200-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Unrest among the populace continues following the assassination of Strephon 
and the questionable rise to power of Emperor Lucan. Fanned by opponents 
such as Duke Simalr of Ushra, the flames of unrest have sparked rioting in 
major population centers and intense quarreling among members of the Moot.

Police and Imperial Guard troops have kept these isolated outbreaks under 
control, but their frequency and intensity are on the rise.


Vland/Vland (0307-A967A9A-F) Date: 202-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Emperor Strephon was assassinated by Archduke Dulinor of Ilelish 132-1116. 
The Central Authority issued a simple statement early today regretting the 
Emperor's death, but calling on all citizens to remain calm and remember his 
passing with dignity.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               212-1116	(GURPS)

In-system space ship traffic was snarled today when the arrival of an 
unexpected Naval courier vessel was vectored to Capital ahead of all other 
incoming vessels, causing considerable dislocation in orbital traffic 
control.

A spokesman for System Port Authority refused comment other than to state 
that the vessel had the highest military priority, and its commander 
insisted on being cleared for approach immediately. TNS reporters managed to 
locate the shift supervisor at Capi tal Far Orbit Control, who was somewhat 
more talkative on receiving assurances of anonymity.

"The transponder indicated that it was an Imperial Navy vessel," the 
supervisor said, but when the neutrino signature analysis came through, I 
recognized it as an Imperiallines TI-class. Now, a Tango Ida with a Navy 
squawker, is a little unusual. I've wor ked this duty eight years, and I've 
only seen that twice...we have a lot of TI-class ships in and out of system, 
but normally they have civilian transponders. This one demanded clearance 
straight through to the Naval Base, and we had to give it to them on account 
of the transponder priority code, even though it meant I had to spend the 
next three hours unsnarling everything." When asked what he thought it all 
meant, the supervisor winked at this reporter, and said: "Somebody had 
something they wanted to g et dirtside real fast, and they couldn't wait for 
the Xboat. Maybe Prince Lucan ordered some extra Tokay escenzia for one of 
his little parties."



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               215-1116	(GURPS)

Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian will be honored at a memorial service to be 
held in the Hall of Nobles beneath the Moot Spire on 230-1116. Because 
Dulinor's body has still not been found, mourners may view a holographic 
representaion of the Archduke, whi ch will lie in state in the Hall for 10 
days prior to the ceremony.

Emperor Strephon will deliver the main eulogy. The memorial service itself 
will incorporate aspects of the Dlani Virasan religion, but will not be a 
Virasan funeral service, as that will be held on Dlan, Dulinor's homeworld. 
Although not a follower of the Virasan faith, Dulinor was said to be deeply 
interested in its tenets, which state (among other things) that true 
believers must die a non-violent death on Dlan to attain true enlightenment.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 217-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

In the shadows of the Imperial Palace, a particularly violent clash between 
police and rioters has rocked the capital. For nearly three hours the 
skirmishes continued, as demonstrating citizens forced their way toward the 
palace against strict orders of the authorities.

Nonlethal means were finally used to disperse the crowd, but not until forty 
citizens and at least three riot policemen were killed.

A spokesman for Emperor Lucan has stated that the Emperor, though aware of 
the problem, was not concerned and did not at any time leave the palace for 
his own safety.



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               230-1116	(GURPS)

A memorial service for Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian was held in the Hall 
of Nobles beneath the Moot Spire today. Emperor Strephon, his wife Iolanthe, 
his daughter Grand Princess Ciencia Iphegenia, and the emperor's nephew 
Prince Lucan were present. The Emperor delivered the eulogy, of which the 
following are selected excerpts:

Dulinor was my friend. And Dulinor was a madman.

Harsh words? No. Rather, a tribute.

Great spirits are not normal, they are abnormal. In their ceaseless questing 
for a world which has not yet been but which they seek to bring about they 
show their alienation from the world around them. These aliens are those 
whom we call leaders, visionar ies, prophets, poets, artists - madmen. 
Dulinor was one of them, and he stood at their head.

What does it take to see the universe as it is and say it is not enough? To 
say that it can be another way that it has never been before? These are not 
the thoughts of a contented man, one who is well-adjusted to the world as he 
finds it. Well-adjusted is a compliment we throw around easily, but it is 
not a compliment that applies to a leader. Because leaders are never 
well-adjusted; they are always discontent, they always seek a universe that 
does not exist, and they strive to make that universe a reality. This 
striving is the opposite of being well-adjusted, it is madness.

In all the years I knew him, Dulinor never ceased striving, and I loved him 
for it.

Talent, we are reminded by the ancient philosopher, is the capacity for 
opposites. If so, then Dulinor was perhaps the most talented of us all. 
Cloaked in contradictions, like the black garb he wore, imposed upon him by 
a faith he did not embrace, he serv ed and defied, agreed and challenged. He 
was unpopular, and indispensable. He went to his death believing in the 
course of his life, and not caring if others understood. His life and death 
are perhaps a warning to those of talent who would follow after him, that 
the candle that burns brightest burns briefest. Let all talented madmen 
remember that the life of service comes at great cost, but let them never 
shrink from it.

Dulinor died in the blackness that he wore in life, and as in that life, 
never being fully of it, but also not rejecting it.

We will not see his like again.

Roget/Spinward Marches                  231-1116	(GURPS)

Mercenary and former member of an elite Darrian unit Htarlehtoir was today 
invested as ko (clan chief) of the Feiftiusaea Clan, one of four which 
jointly control Roget.

This is an unusual clan in that it has both Aslan and human prides; 
Htarlehtoir is the first human to act as ko for any of the four clans.


Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G)                  244-1116	(GURPS)

Sector Admiral Hutara Astrin Ilethian, brother of the late Archduke Dulinor 
of Ilelish, has announced that he is resigning his commission, effective 
immediately. In a short press release read by the admiral's newly-appointed 
aide, Lieutenant Tadashi Conacht hault-Musillo, the admiral stated that he 
is resigning in order to devote his full attention to the management of the 
family lands and business interests now that his niece has been appointed 
Archduchess in her father's place.

The admiral stated that his niece would now be busy with government duties, 
and would no longer be able to devote the time necessary to keep the various 
Ilethian family interests running properly.

Asked why the admiral had not made the announcement himself, the lieutenant 
stated that the admiral has been ill the last few days, and while he was 
well on his way to recovery, his doctors felt the added strain of a public 
appearance might delay his recovery.


Sacnoth/Spinward Marches                  244-1116	(GURPS)

The University of Sacnoth today launched an appeal for funds to purchase 
rare Aslan artifacts. Professor Elke Ragnarsdottir, leading the appeal, 
said: "Unfortunately, neither the University nor the government are willing 
to provide funding, so we must appeal directly to the public."

She continued, "These pieces are important because they may prove that Aslan 
ranged as far coreward as Mithril, centuries before they were thought to 
have reached the Marches. This is a golden opportunity to learn more about 
them, but they need to be studied scientifically, and the best chance of 
that is for the University to acquire them."

The artifacts were found on Mithril in 1106, and have since been in the 
hands of a private collector, who is now selling them to raise money for 
other projects.

Other bidders are likely to include the Darrian government and Aslan 
traders. The Darrian Embassy declined to comment on why their government 
might want to buy the pieces.

If she fails to acquire the pieces, Professor Ragnarsdottir plans to use 
whatever money is raised to mount an expedition to Mithril in the hopes of 
discovering more items at the original site.

Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G) Date: 245-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The Archduke's official state visit to Capital ended abruptly with his 
surprise return to Dlan and his immediate call for a full-media press 
conference on the steps of the palace for later in the day.

After appearing wearing an elaborately fashioned crown, the Archduke began 
his statement with a list of wrongs and abuses perpetrated by Emperor 
Strephon. He concluded with the startling statement: "The Emperor is dead! I 
have dedicated my life to the people of the Imperium. I claim the Iridium 
Throne by right of assassination, and shall rule this Imperium as Emperor 
Dulinor."

The stunned public then listened as the Emperor called for a complete 
mobilization to seize all of the Imperium for his sacred cause. He made a 
public and official request to Admiral Hutara, his brother, for the Ilelish 
Fleet to side with him in his sacred struggle to gain his rightfully secured 
place on the throne.

The Emperor Dulinor retired to his chamber without answering questions. A 
subsequent statement detailing the new Emperor's trip to Capital and the 
assassination of Strephon on the Iridium Throne itself. The statement 
concluded with an account of Dulinor's ascension of the Throne to the well- 
wishing cheers of millions of Capital's citizenry, followed by a selection 
of patriotic video cassettes.

Celebrations have been organized on Dlan and throughout the sector as the 
populace is encouraged to honor the beginning of new age for the Imperium 
and Ilelish sector.


Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G)                  245-1116	(GURPS)

Puzzled citizens of Dlan who wondered why every entertainment channel was 
airing re-runs during prime-time last night now have an answer. An unknown 
agency reserved two hours of air time last night and cancelled a week or so 
ago, without telling anyone what the reservation was for.

The Dlan Minister of Communication's office had no formal comment, but a 
high official in that office stated "Somebody's out several mega-credits. 
They reserved the time almost a year ago, and paid by a bank draft from a 
numbered account, then last wee k we got a message that cancelled the 
reservation and told us to run whatever we wanted. It was too late to try to 
sell the time elsewhere, of course, so we let individual regional managers 
decide."

Speculation is rampant in the local entertainment industry, and guesses 
range from a new holofilm technique that didn't pan out to a massive (and 
very costly) practical joke. One rumor was a news flash of great importance, 
but no one can agree on what that might have been.

Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G) Date: 248-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Sector Admiral Hutara and his fleet officers made an official announcement 
that the Ilelish Fleet has declared for Dulinor. In a brief but ancient 
ceremony, Hutara offered his dagger to Dulinor, who solemnly accepted, and 
then briefly embraced his brother.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  262-1116	(GURPS)

After months of intensive investigation, the Imperial board of inquiry into 
the explosion of Archduke Dulinor's personal gig on 131-1116 is unable to 
physically confirm that Dulinor died in the explosion, or that he was even 
aboard the gig when it was destroyed. Officially, he is still listed as 
"missing, presumed dead." They have been able to confirm that the explosion 
was no accident. So far, this has been their only conclusion.

"We have testimony from Sargon's crew that the archduke and his staff 
boarded the gig," said an unnamed source close to the investigation, "but we 
haven't been able to find a trace of remains - well, not his remains, 
anyway." According to testim ony of several of the crew, Dulinor's flagship, 
the cruiser Sargon, launched the gig with the normal crew of two plus a port 
guide from customs, Archduke Dulinor and fourteen members of his personal 
staff, and three bodyguards plus assorted baggage for the party. The 
explosion was so powerful that not a single complete body has been 
recovered, although DNA and other evidence has accounted for sixteen of the 
nineteen passengers.

"The pattern of the wreckage indicated three separate, simultaneous 
explosions, calculated to pulverize the entire passenger compartment," the 
unnamed source continued. "The explosions all originated in the compartments 
where baggage would ordinarily b e stored." Dulinor's own standing orders, 
however, provide for constant supervision of the loading process by his 
bodyguards, and further require that the security staff who guard and 
oversee loading of the gig must accompany it when it departs. If these 
requirements were followed, it would seem that at least one of the 
perpetrators was killed along with the intended victim.

The unnamed source emphasized that investigators are still not convinced 
that Dulinor was the target of the explosion, although "At this point . . . 
that's the way to bet."



Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G)                  265-1116	(GURPS)

What started as a minor protest rally at the government center on Dlan 
escalated into a major civil confrontation between police and local 
citizens. A large crowd protesting what they called the Imperial Navy's 
cover-up of events surrounding Archduke Dulinor's death assembled without a 
permit and became hostile when ordered to disperse.

More than 600 rioters ransacked offices of the Imperial Navy, the Imperial 
Interstellar Scout Service and the Office of Calendar Compliance, all 
located in the downtown Imperial office building. Local police and 
constabulary forces dispersed the crowds within a few minutes, using 
non-lethal crowd-control devices. Sixteen people, none of them police, were 
treated and released at local medical centers.

The destruction apparently was haphazard. The Naval office, which suffered 
the heaviest damage, was primarily a public-relations and recruiting center. 
At the time of the riots, only civilian employees were present.


Amdani/Daibei (2034-A727A88-E) Date: 265-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Heightened high-level conferences and military activity in the area have 
done nothing to quell rumors that Core sector is in civil unrest. Statements 
from the nobility have been universally, "No comment."

As of this date, all naval personnel have been put on special alert, all 
shore leaves have been canceled, and a complete media blackout of naval 
exercises has been imposed. The Admiralty has no comment.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  270-1116	(GURPS)

Prince Lucan Alkhalikoi, nephew of the Emperor Strephon, announced today 
that he will imitate his brother Varian and take an extended tour of the 
Imperium.

"My brother and I often discussed taking a grand tour of the Imperium 
together," said the prince, "but we could never agree on the specifics, and 
when he departed earlier this year on his own, I felt compelled to remain at 
Capital for personal reasons. I have recently decided however, that I, too, 
must become more familiar with the Imperium, although I intend to do it in a 
different way than my brother."

Prince Lucan went on to say that he has not yet completed plans for his 
trip, and that his itinerary remains open. He did confirm that he will delay 
his departure until after the archducal investiture ceremony on 000-1117, so 
that he may attend on beha lf of his branch of the Imperial family.

The Emperor had no official comment on his nephew's decision, but sources at 
the palace indicate he approves.




Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  282-1116	(GURPS)

Commo Tech First Class Gani Riisha is having trouble getting his possessions 
back from the Imperial Navy. Gani Riisha was one of the crewmembers of 
Archduke Dulinor's flagship Sargon, and his possessions are, for some 
reason, relevant to the invest igation into the explosion that killed the 
Archduke and several others on 131-1116.

"They questioned me quite intensively," Riisha said, "because I was on duty 
on the bridge when the gig blew up. I expected them to want my signal logs 
and everything official, but why do they need my uniforms and my personal 
kit? They released me from cus tody after a few days, and they've been very 
generous in supplying me with replacement clothing and such, but there are a 
number of items of a personal nature I'd like to get back. They can't even 
tell me when I can expect to see them."

Gani is not alone. While most of Sargon's crew members (and their 
possessions) have been released from custody, the Imperial Navy still 
retains the flagship itself, some of the crew's personal gear, and three 
members of the crew itself under tight security.

The Imperial Navy Public Relations Office refuses to comment, other than to 
say that the personnel and items are necessary to the ongoing investigation, 
and that the crewmembers are not suspects at this time.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  289-1116	(GURPS)

The Imperial Navy has released several transcripts relating to the death of 
Archduke Dulinor in an explosion on 131-1116. The transcripts describe 
communications between the gig and inner-system traffic control, but also 
include selections from the gig 's flight-data recorder.

The gig's last response to traffic control was at 13:22:34-131-1116, when 
the gig's pilot acknowledged and carried out an instruction to alter course. 
A short time later (13:39:48-131-1116), traffic control issued a course 
correction instruction, but the gig did not acknowledge. The gig's 
navigational transponder ceased broadcasting at 13:41:06-131-1116, which is 
within seconds of the time the gig's flight-data recorder lost contact with 
all instruments, and approximately the time several other ships in the area 
reported a bright flash from the gig's coordinates.

All in all, the data released confirms the Navy's contention that several 
near simultaneous explosions destroyed the gig, killing all aboard 
instantly. When asked about the gig's cockpit voice recorder, Navy spokesmen 
responded that the instrument was severely damaged in the blast, and that it 
was still undergoing reconstructive analysis.



Quiru/Lunion (2321)                  289-1116	(GURPS)

The gas-giant planet Plistii, in the Lunion subsector of the Spinward 
Marches, underwent a violent shudder beginning on 341-1115, causing some 
small concern for the inhabitants of Quiru, one of Plistii's satellites 
(Quiru/Lunion 2321). A panic among the world's 3,200 citizens was averted by 
quick-thinking MainLines Shipping officials, who were able to gain a few 
hours advance notice of the disturbance and stage an evacuation drill while 
the event took place.

"We got everybody in one place, within sight of the emergency evacuation 
vessels, and then told them what was going on," said a company spokesman. 
"We gave everybody the day off with pay, and started playing dance music and 
serving food. It turned into a holiday, and had things turned sour w e could 
have had everybody on the evac ships and out of there in a couple of hours."

Details are still sparse, but the event appears to have been either a 
massive storm front in the gas giant, or else some kind of "gasquake" deep 
in the giant's liquid-hydrogen core. Company officials are monitoring the 
gas giant for further events, but so far nothing other than a few minor 
aftershocks has been detected.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  292-1116	(GURPS)

TNS sources learned today that Imperial Navy intelligence operatives may 
have foiled a plot to assassinate Lady Isis Arepo Illethian. Confidential 
sources suggest that a series of arrests on Capital and elsewhere in the 
sector were a result of a long-term undercover operation combating terrorist 
activity in Core sector. According to the sources, the purpose of the 
assassination was to galvanize anti-Imperial feelings in the Domain of 
Ilelish and spark a revolt there by blaming the assassination on Emperor 
Strephon.

A spokesman for the Imperial Navy refused to comment on TNS reports about a 
plot, and would neither confirm nor deny the existence of any undercover 
operations in Core sector or elsewhere. The spokesman did state that both 
Lady Isis and Archduke Norris were traveling to Capital under a Naval 
escort, and that their precise schedules and itineraries were classified.


Amdani/Daibei (2034-A727A88-E) Date: 309-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Official announcement of Emperor Strephon's assassination has reached the 
sector. The nobility has also released a statement encouraging the populace 
to have faith in the systematic and peaceful shift of power to Strephon's 
heir, Duke Varian.

Subsequent messages from Core sector have indicated that Varian was killed 
in combat in and around the palace area. Prince Lucan is apparently the new 
Emperor of the Imperium.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 310-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Lucan announced that unrest in Core sector has been dealt with successfully. 
All citizens are encouraged to have faith in the new Emperor, despite 
unsubstantiated rival claims to the throne.

Emperor Lucan also announced that the Core Fleet is on the move towards Dlan 
to hunt down the criminal Dulinor. His actions warrant death, and he will 
certainly be brought to justice.


Terra/Solomani Rim (0207-A867A69-F) Date: 313-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

In an unexpected move, much of the Imperial Rim Fleet has been concentrated 
and many reservists have been placed on alert. No substantial explanation 
has been forthcoming.

General Yoshtiru of the Terran Home Guard has called for a high level 
command conference of the commanders of all troops stationed on Terra.


Terra/Solomani Rim (0207-A867A69-F) Date: 322-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Military installations in Asia, Africa, and North America have been closed 
to civilians. All active duty personnel worldwide have been recalled from 
leave or furlough.

An unofficial source stated that large shipments of materials have been 
arriving at these closed installations. The exact nature of the shipments is 
unknown, and no official Home Guard spokesman will comment on the issue.


Rhylanor/Spinward Marches                   324-1116	(GURPS)

Subsector law enforcement agencies and the general public were today warned 
by the Imperial Navy to be on the lookout for Miguel Casimir, also known as 
Casimir Clarke or Miguel Clarke, who is wanted for a variety of crimes 
including impersonating an Imperial officer, theft of Imperial property, 
piracy and murder.

Commander Miles Cullan of the Imperial Navy said, "Casimir -- or whatever 
name he is now using -- recently escaped from a maximum security prison at a 
classified location, killing two guards in the process. We believe that he 
will attempt to dupe loyal ci tizens into hiding him by claiming to be the 
victim of a government cover-up. Do not be deceived, this man is a vicious 
animal. "

Commander Cullan explained that because of the charges of piracy, the Navy 
has been asked to lead the investigation. He went on to say that the 
fugitive has escaped before, and on that occasion claimed to be a member of 
an Imperial Research Station, and t hat Imperial and megacorporate interests 
were pursuing him to suppress a radical new power generation technology he 
had developed after examination of Ancient artifacts. "Casimir may use this 
story again," said Cullan, "and let's be completely clear: There is 
absolutely no truth in it."

Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 330-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The ducal household announced that Duke Norris of Regina will travel to 
Rhylanor to meet with representatives from several key worlds in the 
Spinward Marches and Deneb sectors. The conference is scheduled to cover 
"economic matters", a general term used when the agenda has not been made 
public. The exact nature of the meeting has not been disclosed.

In related matters, a rumor that the Duke has recently received a private 
communication from Emperor Strephon has not been confirmed by official 
sources.


Romarr/Spinward Marches                   331-1116		(GURPS)

The ruling council of Romarr today authorized Spinward Spice & Spirits, LIC, 
to export 250 tons of dust-spice without paying the normal duties and 
tariffs.

This measure, which will allow SSS to undersell its competitors, is likely 
to save the troubled company from bankruptcy.

A company representative, Captain Mark Spencer, denied charges of corruption 
or nepotism, stating the a business case for deferred payment of duty had 
been presented to the Council and accepted by them.

When asked whether he thought the shipments were at risk from ihatei 
marauders, Captain Spencer replied that SSS would be hiring additional 
security staff.


Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 340-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The ducal household announced that Duke Norris was elevated to the rank of 
Archduke of the Domain of Deneb by the hand of Emperor Strephon on 091-1116 
in recognition of his activities in the late Fifth Frontier War.

The Duke plans a trip to Capital to personally accept the Emperor's 
blessing.


Nusku/Sol                  351-1116				(GURPS)

At the request of the Marquis of Nusku, the planetary Duma today ordered 
military protection for an archaeological dig on New Kodiak Island. 
Civilians with no connection with the scientific team have been barred from 
approaching or la nding on the island.


Duma spokesman Ian Direma stated that the Marquis had gathered information 
suggesting that the dig site was the focus of a conspiracy to loot 
archaeological relics. When pressed for details, Direma referred the 
journalists conducting the interview to Marquis Yushchenko's office. The 
Marquis could not be reached for comment.

New Kodiak Island is known to have been the location of a minor command 
center for Terran forces during the Interstellar Wars period. The Reinhardt 
Foundation has been excavating the site for three years, thus far without 
any results of interest to the general public.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  354-1116		(GURPS)

The ships carrying Lady Isis Arepo Illethian and Duke Norris of Regina 
arrived in system today. TNS has learned that the fleets, which merged at 
some unspecified point along their respective paths, actually arrived in 
Core sector some time ago, and hav e spent the intervening period in 
security isolation at an unspecified location.

A press conference is scheduled for next week, shortly before the ceremonies 
that will confirm Lady Isis as Archduchess of Ilelish and Duke Norris as 
Archduke of Deneb.



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  356-1116		(GURPS)

The Imperial Navy has issued a report on its investigation of Archduke 
Dulinor's death, ending several months of speculation. The report concludes 
that Dulinor was killed on 131-1116 when the gig on which he was a passenger 
vanished in a massive explos ion. The report further states that, in the 
opinion of the investigators, the explosion was intentional, and represents 
an act of assassination by a party or parties unknown.

Investigators could not find any remains, but DNA extracted from tissues 
recovered from the wreckage was conclusively identified as being Dulinor's. 
The report also concludes that one or more of Dulinor's assassins also 
perished in the explosion, but i s unable to reach any conclusion on whether 
this was a deliberate act of suicide.

Unofficial sources close to the investigation state that there was 
considerable controversy among investigators as to whether the DNA finally 
confirmed as Dulinor's came from his body or from medical stockpiles carried 
as part of his luggage (many nobl es travel with medical supplies cloned and 
cultured from their own tissues, but it is not known for certain whether 
Dulinor followed this practice).

The complete text of the report was delivered to the Emperor yesterday, and 
will be released to the press after a copy has been delivered to Lady Isis, 
the archduke's daughter and heir.




Capital/Core                  357-1116			(GURPS)

Informed sources within the Imperial Ministry of Justice today confirmed 
that the formal search for the assassin or assassins of Archduke Dulinor 
will be conducted by a special team formed from members of the Imperial 
Navy, the Scout S ervice, and the Ministry of Justice, among others.

No details as to membership were made available, but the sources indicated 
that the team will have nearly unprecedented investigative powers and will 
consist of top investigators from several agencies other than those named 
above.

The team will report directly to the Emperor, and has already begun 
operations based on the Imperial Navy's investigation into the explosion of 
131-1116, which killed the Archduke and the crew of his personal gig.


Aristotle/Solomani Rim (1740-A269985-E)                  360-1116		(GURPS)

The Confederation Navy today announced the conclusion of their quadrennial 
SWIFT RETRIBUTION XXIV readiness exercise. "Civilian traffic in the Gemini 
Subsector may safely return to normal operations," said Commissioner Ignacy 
Aszykkrol , public affairs spokesman for Doan Naval Base. "We are aware of 
the inconvenience these maneuvers cause," he continued, "but the price of 
freedom is eternal vigilance." Commissioner Aszykkrol refused to comment on 
the nature of the exercise or the elemen ts involved, saying only that the 
event had been "entirely satisfactory, good training and a complete 
success."

Later, Lloyd's of London and the Traveller's Aid Society issued a joint 
bulletin rescinding the subsector-wide Amber travel advisory posted for 
Gemini Subsector on 060-1116.


Capital/Core                  364-1116			(GURPS)

Despite the Imperial Navy's conclusions to the contrary, a small number of 
people believe that Archduke Dulinor is still alive. Almost from the start, 
according to sources in the Ministry of Justice, reports of the Archduke's 
survival were received, although the vast majority of them could be 
dismissed by investigators after minimal investigation

An anonymous source reveals that almost a thousand separate reports of 
"Dulinor sightings" were filed with the Imperial Navy, and that more than 
two dozen investigators were assigned to follow them up. Every report was 
found to be without factual basis , but this has not prevented the growth of 
persistent rumors that Dulinor either survived the explosion of Sargon's gig 
or was never aboard the vessel to begin with.

"A lot of people see someone they think resembles the late Archduke," our 
source said, "and let their imaginations run away with them." Evidently, 
many of the "sightings" occurred almost simultaneously in locations 
separated by several parsecs. Even the most outrageous reports were 
completely investigated, our source assured us, and all of them proved to be 
". . . a waste of time and resources."



Lanth/Spinward Marches (1719-A879533-B)                  365-1116	(GURPS)

An Imperial board of inquiry has declared the 10,000-dton passenger liner 
S.S. Sundance lost with all hands. The Sundance, one of Al Morai's Sunfarer 
class of luxury express liners, has been missing since she fail ed to make 
her scheduled planetfall at Lanth on 118-1114, en route from Regina to Mora. 
She was carrying 3,084 passengers (2,054 in cold sleep), 577 crew, and 419 
dtons of cargo when she left Ghandi/Spinward Marches (1815-B211455-A) on 
110-1114. The loss is officially listed as "cause unknown; presumed 
misadventure."

This ruling paves the way for the settlement of claims brought by Sundance's 
shippers and passengers' next of kin. Al Morai officials steadfastly deny 
allegations of improper maintenance or use of unrefined fuel as possible 
explanations for the ship's disappearence, citing their excellent 
operational record and impeccable safety rating from the Imperial Grand 
Survey.


Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

Speaking on condition that he not be quoted, a retired officer of the 
Imperial Interstellar Scout Service confirms that there may be a kernel of 
truth behind Colonel Ruys de Bessier's allegations that Imperial POWs are 
still within the Zhodani Consulate but that they are there of their own 
volition.

"I won't even begin to summarize the reasons, but in almost every war a 
certain number of people perform what might be considered questionable acts 
and are hesitant about returning home . . . some of them take advantage of 
the chaos of war to assume new identities, others simply take a liking to 
their new home and decide not to leave." The officer stopped short of saying 
any Imperials were guilty of treason, but offered the following: "Imperial 
intelligence knows that a number of serving members of the Imperial military 
during the Fifth Frontier War were Zho sympathizers. I think that is pretty 
much what we have here."

The officer concluded: "It doesn't make sense anyway . . . why would the 
Zhos keep POWs this long after the war? You can spin all sorts of crackpot 
conspiracy/espionage scenarios, but most of these are fodder for cheap 
action/adventure holos."



Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

Former Imperial Army Intelligence officer Colonel Ruys de Bessier alleged 
today that the Zhodani Consulate continues to hold POW's captured during the 
Fourth and Fifth Frontier Wars. Colonel de Bessier recently resigned from 
the Imperi al Army citing "matters of conscience."

During a hastily-organized press conference today, Colonel de Bessier 
presented what he described as "overwhelming evidence that many of our 
comrades continue to languish in Zhodani prisons. This is a travesty of 
civilized behavior, and I, for one , refuse to keep silent any longer."

Colonel de Bessier maintains that from 2,000 to as many as 10,000 Imperial 
personnel are held at a number of locations within the Zhodani Consulate, 
and that seven of these locations have been "positively identified." Colonel 
de Bessier refused to disclose by what means these identifications were 
made.

Imperial Military sources declined to comment on these allegations.

A spokesperson for the Zhodani Consulate described the allegations as 
"laughable and lamentable" and "yet another impediment to lasting peace" but 
refused further comment.


Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

General Mueni Arap Rutan, commanding officer of the Imperial Guard, 
announced the appointment of Colonel Murnas De&#8217;Angelo as commander of the 
Ilelish Regiment of the Imperial Guard. The appointment of Colonel 
De&#8217;Angelo, former executive officer of the Antares Regiment of the Imperial 
Guard, finally fills the vacancy created with the retirement of Colonel 
Hiroshi Enera earlier this year. The regiment spent the intervening time 
under the personal command of General Rutan.

There remain three other vacancies in the Ilelish Regiment, also created by 
unexpected retirements earlier in the year, but neither General Rutan nor 
Colonel De&#8217;Angelo would comment on how soon those positions would be filled.


Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

The Imperial Navy has finally returned the personal possessions it impounded 
from Commo Tech First Class Gani Riishao earlier this year. Riisha was on 
duty on Sargon's bridge on 131-1116, when the gig containing Archduke 
Dulinor exploded, killing all aboard.

Gani received no explanation from the Navy, other than a short letter 
apologizing for any inconvenience he may have suffered, and inventorying his 
possessions.

"Nothing seems to be missing," Gani said, "But they still haven't told me 
why the kept everything for so long. I'm more than a little curious."



Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

In a short press release issued today, Prince Lucan, nephew of Emperor 
Strephon, announced that he has changed his mind about embarking on a tour 
of the Imperium.

"My application to the Imperial Naval Academy has been accepted," said the 
prince, "and I will serve a term as an officer upon my graduation." Lucan 
explained that he had been too hasty in announcing his intention to embark 
on a grand tour, and decided , after considerable thought, that he did not 
want to imitate his brother Varian too closely. "I have always been taught 
that each of us must chart his own course." Lucan said, "and I finally 
concluded that I had been too hasty in my earlier decision."

Emperor Strephon had no comment on his nephew's decision, except to state 
that he would support Lucan's decision.


Antares/Antares                  365-1116			(GURPS)

In a joint press conference at the archducal station of Cerise, Archduke 
Brzk and Adkhar Shirushi, head of the sector's Church of the Stellar 
Divinity, announced that the Star of Jyestha will be sent on tour throughout 
the Imperium. Th e Star is a religious artifact believed to have belonged to 
Jyestha Yerubid, the founder of the Church during the days of the First 
Imperium. As there are many autonomous churches of this faith throughout the 
Imperium, this gesture on the part of the Anta rean church is of 
considerable importance.

An itinerary and timetable for the Star's journey has yet to be completed, 
but both Archduke Brzk and Shirushi agreed that it would be present on 
Capital in time for the festivities surrounding the emperor's Golden 
Jubilee.


Jesedipere/Spinward Marches                  365-1116	(GURPS)

A cell of the anti-Vargr group Superioriti has sprung up on this backwater 
world of the Spinward Marches. For the past ten years, Jesedipere has been 
home to an increasing number of Vargr refugees fleeing the depredations of 
the Kforuz eng corsair band. Because of the world's lack of a central 
government, clashes between its original human inhabitants and the Vargr 
newcomers are common. The rise of Superioriti will only exacerbate the 
situation.

The commander of the local Scout base, Nanda Theiss, has attempted to act as 
a mediator between the groups, but to little avail. She stated that "the 
situation is worsening and I fully expect larger-scale violence to erupt if 
something is not done."




_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:51:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:51:06 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:35PM -0400
References: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423204938.A10385@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:35PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless 
> they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which 
> case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.

Interesting.  One of my favourite treats is apricot snuff (the nasal
sort, natuerlich).  Oddly enough, it has no aroma indoors, but if one
steps outside it's really quite powerful, as though one has crammed a
pair of apricots up one's nose, one in each nostril.  Really quite
incredible how something can have no smell and an amazingly powerful
smell, depending simply on the surroundings.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a
reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating
the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for
independence.         --Charles A. Beard (1874-1948), U.S. historian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/23/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you
> > can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes
> > about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people
> > in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek
> > across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be
> > more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a
> > plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful
> > smell to the unwashed.
> 
> An excellent point.  Which is why some hunters use MOPP gear to hide their
> own scent.  I was always partial to Shaklee's Basic-H.  One of those
> biodegradable soaps that proto-enviornmentalists (like my parents) used in
> the late '70.  I don't even know if it's made anymore.  But it had no scent.
> I carefully hoarded my supply for years.

I'm so glad I have all you people to tell me these things.  They are NOT
things I'd ever want to find out on my own!

(I loathe getting dirty and am famous for the line, "if you expect me to
have sex with you we'd better be sleeping someplace with indoor
plumbing.")

I'd probably smell from miles away to the unwashed.  I never use anything
but Shiseido "Taiyou no Megumi" liquid body soap, which has orange, lemon
and yuzu extract in it and has quite a strong citrus smell.  The fruit
acids are good for my oily skin, and it wakes me up in the morning <G> but
no one's ever complained about it because it has no synthetic perfumes in
it.  The same goes for my shampoo, which has camellia oil in it and is the
thing that enables me and many other women to keep their long, straight
hair long and straight and shiny.

> I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
> more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
withstanding!

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:11:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:11:16 2002
Subject: Field Life (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC62145.B5492FFB@premier.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> on 4/23/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> >
> > ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you
> > can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes
> > about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people
> > in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek
> > across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be
> > more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a
> > plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful
> > smell to the unwashed.

For shorter field exercises (too short to become accustomed to field
funk), I found that Deep Woods Off (r) insect repellent was useful in
masking said field funk (when sprayed liberally on both self and
uniforms).  Of course, DWO (r) (even the so-called "non-scented"
variety) would no doubt be easily smelled by someone who _had_ become
accustomed to field funk (since acclimation to natural odors is often
accompanied by sensitization to artificial odors).  Yet another reason
why being a REMF in the field is unusually hazardous....

<<snip>>
> 
> I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
> more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

Hmmm, let's see.  The light from a cigarette lighter can be seen from
way-far away, the smell can be detected from way-far away (downwind,
anyway), the sound of a metal cigarette lighter snapping open or shut
carries for several hundred meters in quiet conditions and the increased
heat created by taking a drag off a cigarette makes the whole head glow
like a lantern when viewed through night-vision devices.

All we need to add are taste and touch for a five-senses symphony of
detection. ;-)

And all this is at TL-7/8 (for the increased sensitivity of the Mk I
Human Sensor Array, it's TL-0).  Imagine how easily a smoker can be
spotted at TL-12+.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8EB6FA1.5837F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 6:05 PM, James Ramsay at quakers_united@yahoo.com.au wrote:

> QUOTE
> The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
> civilians.  It has little or no military application,
> contrary to popular mythos.
> END QUOTE
>=20
> True. But......
>=20
> They don't like it up 'em mister mainwaring, they
> don't like it up 'em ;)
>=20
> James

Which reminded me of Robert Service and this little ditty:

When first I left Blighty they gave me a bay'nit
And told me it 'ad to be smothered wiv gore;
But blimey! I 'aven't been able to stain it,
So far as I've gone wiv the vintage of war.
For ain't it a fraud! when a Boche and yours truly
Gits into a mix in the grit and the grime,
'E jerks up 'is 'ands wiv a yell and 'e's duly
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

=A0=A0=A0Left, right, Hans and Fritz!
=A0=A0=A0Goose step, keep up yer mits!
=A0=A0=A0Oh my, Ain't it a shyme!
=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

At toasting a biscuit me bay'nit's a dandy;
I've used it to open a bully beef can;
For pokin' the fire it comes in werry 'andy;
For any old thing but for stickin' a man.
'Ow often I've said: "'Ere, I'm goin' to press you
Into a 'Un till you're seasoned for prime,"
And fiercely I rushes to do it, but bless you!
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

=A0=A0=A0Lor, yus; DON'T they look glad?
=A0=A0=A0Right O! 'Owl Kamerad!
=A0=A0=A0Oh my, always the syme!
=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

I'm 'untin' for someone to christen me bay'nit,
Some nice juicy Chewton wot's fightin' in France;
I'm fairly down-'earted -- 'ow CAN yer explain it?
I keeps gettin' prisoners every chance.
As soon as they sees me they ups and surrenders,
Extended like monkeys wot's tryin' to climb;
And I uses me bay'nit -- to slit their suspenders --
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

=A0=A0=A0Four 'Uns; lor, wot a bag!
=A0=A0=A0'Ere, Fritz, sample a fag!
=A0=A0=A0Oh my, ain't it a gyme!
=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEODMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEODMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <548ccucmeghot0o03arn2ncsi1vctsa0qf@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 21:06:30 -0400, "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> wrote:

>Whether intentional or not, it still fits the textbook definition of a =
ponzi
>scheme. And a bad idea from the start. The fact that it got bigger and
>messier just follows as the night the day. Putting money away in
>interest-bearing accounts would be even worse. The best thing we could =
do is
>end the program, encourage retirement savings, roll the cost of phasing =
it
>out into the general fund and be done with it. While we're at it, phase =
out
>the rest of the federal retirement system and send it all private. At =
least
>if the politicians and bureaucrats had their cookies in the jar with =
ours
>they might be more apt to keep an eye on the Enrons and Arthur-Andersens=
 out
>there, instead of being in bed with them.

To their credit, at least some of the US politicians have recognized
these arguments and their electoral popularity quite some time ago.
At first, it was just the laws which permitted the creation of tax
deferred retirement accounts (known as Individual Retirement Accounts,
IRAs), which not only allowed, but encouraged a sensible wage earner
to plan for his own retirement.

And, before we get too far into US tax and social debate, I'll leave
further discussion aside.

ObTrav:  Is it any wonder that this isn't a topic discussed in regard
to Law Levels or Government type.  This is almost as sensitive a topic
as Theocracies or Dictatorships.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:22:18 2002
Subject: Field Life (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
In-Reply-To: <3CC62145.B5492FFB@premier.net>
Message-ID: <B8EB727B.58385%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/23/02 8:06 PM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:

> 
> And all this is at TL-7/8 (for the increased sensitivity of the Mk I
> Human Sensor Array, it's TL-0).  Imagine how easily a smoker can be
> spotted at TL-12+.

If a high tech sensor picked up trace elements from tobacco, it's gurantees
that sophs are about (The US government's attempts to get dogs to smoke
notwithstanding).
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:26:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:26:48 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
References: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org> <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20020423183217.00ac19d8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC62532.4060905@yarranet.net.au>

Jimmy Simpson wrote:

> At 06:59 PM 4/23/2002 +0100, Brian Caball wrote:
> 
>> On Tuesday 23 April 2002 17:04, William Lane wrote:
>> > I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 
>> (in fact
>> > i try to pretend it never happened.)
>>
>>
>> I think we all did that ;->

If you wanted to forget Galactica 1980 you should have lived here in oz 
where they never showed it. I only found out it even existed about 5 
years ago.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20423.202030.2k6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I think that the first versions should be some sort of spider-
> legged robot along the lines of some of Rodney Brooks' 
> creations.  They should hide in the daytime and come out at 
> night.  They should be airdropped into the rear, and they 
> should be used to spy on things.  Also, if discovered, they 
> should shoot every warm body they see.  Maybe even give them 
> a blade or two to become an intelligent lawnmower.
>
> The psychological implications are great.  Now, who wants to 
> go on patrol tonight, knowing that if you find one of these 
> things, it's going to make meat by-product out of most of 
> your patrol?
>
> I think a gadget like this is already "do-able"

A story in analog during the Vietnam war had a similar idea. A low
flying (treetop skimming) armed drone "plane" that was *very* quiet.

It'd come upon a group of VC or the like and shoot the most aggressive,
dedicated members. The rumor was that it had a "telepathic gunsight".

The real explanation was that it was programmed to fire on anybody who
shot at it! Anybody who has the presence of mind to fire at something
like this when surprised by it is *definitely* someone you want to
kill. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <DAV43ywkGmY8TkomDt500003bb3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20423.201805.9j0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being tried
> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

There were several stories along that line. One was titled "Brillo"
(they named the robot that because it was "metal fuzz" :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:13:17 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEDKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20423.204803.3O9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>>
>> No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
>> homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
>> sex isn't a sin.
>
> You misstate the RR POV, which says there is no *being* in the equation.
> That would suggest something physical. They tend to deny causation outside
> of the fallen (sin) condition. You correctly stated the RCC position, which
> like the jewish view holds that only the act is condemnable.

Yes, and I was replying to a comment that *specificly* mentioned the
Catholic Church. And used "Church" rather than "Christians" to convey
that.

I wasn't talking about the RRR (Radical Religious right) position. Nor
did the section of the post I was replying to. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus> <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

 >
 > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
 >
 > On 4/23/2002 at 5:05 PM ondy wrote:
 >
 >
 >> Love the cover! Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the
 >> pdf will be somewhat better. I will be buying this.
 >>
 >
 > The jpgs don't do it justice really, so I just posted a
 > 4-page PDF sample also. Same pages, but you get a better
 > look at the layout!
 >
 > http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001s.pdf

Hunter,

The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.

Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
into a single product for your Aide line?

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] High Guard to GT Conversion: Tigress DN
Message-ID: <3CC5EF23.19744.FC0AC1@localhost>

--Message-Boundary-8749
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body

Heres my first attempt at converting my all time favorite CT design



--Message-Boundary-8749
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-disposition: inline
Content-description: Attachment information.

The following section of this message contains a file attachment
prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system,
you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

   ---- File information -----------
     File:  TL12 500,000-ton Tigress-class Dreadnought.htm
     Date:  23 Apr 2002, 23:30
     Size:  6305 bytes.
     Type:  HTML-text

--Message-Boundary-8749
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--Message-Boundary-8749--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:36:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:36:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
 <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <200204240037330379.D4645864@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>Hunter,
>
>The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
>concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
>printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
>that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
>likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.
>
>Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
>into a single product for your Aide line?

It depends on what changes would be needed for a specific on-screen version.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20422.182252.6Q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 19:23
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism

In mail you write:

> If anyone in the Portland/Vancouver area that is on this list hears
> about any job that could use someone good with computers or telecom,
> please email me off-list.

I'm trying to scrape by until I can sell some property. Alas, it looks
like I need to spend several hundred bucks I can't afford just to make
the property likely to sell... :-(
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the reply, Leonard.  Everytime I see people on the street
corners with signs, I think to myself that "someday, that will be me".
I think our economy is too sick to recover.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>; from j-man@attbi.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:43PM -0700
References: <20422.182252.6Q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <20020423231739.A10823@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:43PM -0700, J-Man wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the reply, Leonard.  Everytime I see people on the street
> corners with signs, I think to myself that "someday, that will be me".
> I think our economy is too sick to recover.

Don't worry--no economy is too sick to recover.  This ain't the Great
Depression (thankfully: do _any_ of us want to make our children
miserable with tales of the beginning of the century?).  I rather
think that things are in the slow beginnings of a turn-around.  What
really worries me is the war.  Wars wreck havoc on economies.  The
reasons that the Great War and WWII did not on ours (ask Germans how
the 20s and late 40s were) is that in both we had a good supply of
folks to whom we were the only producers around.

Look at the '70s; at the early '90s.  What worries me is that our
current war is going to make the late '00s nasty indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DAV39YAPNXRPmcarcR4000047a2@hotmail.com>

> >> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being
> tried
> >> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce
the
> >> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
> >> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

> >Not off-hand, but that sounds like one of Harry Harrison's from _War
> >with the Robots_.

> Isaac Asimov, The Caves of Steel, circa 1952.

> Wan't that called 'Brillo' ?

Leading to the next natural question:  How many times has this storyline
been done?

FWIW I think 'Brillo' is the one I had in mind when I originally posted.
Wouldn't bet money on it though.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:39:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:39:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV128tG4tOlxlMWvaw00024086@hotmail.com>

> My favorite robot policeman is ED-209.

Gotta love ED-209.

<snip about Autonomous Robot Infantry>

Presumably biological friendlies on the ground in the ARI op area would
carry some kind of IFF transponder to keep from being carved up by their own
'bot.

Now _there's_ a piece of equipment you'd hate to see manufactured by the
lowest bidder <G>.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 00:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 23:34:03 2002
Subject: Public Health (was Re: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <20020424000942.7DBCE27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E170GLO-0004sI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > 
> > Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think
> > it would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> > bathing and sanitation...
> 
> That means you want the rest of the state to fund your desire to live
> where it's expensive (those subsidies have to come from somewhere).
> That's hardly a good thing.

How about funding sanitation for public health reasons?  Even if 
only 5% of the people lack adequate water for sanitation and must 
crap in the street, the disease risk is increased for *everyone*  
public health measures are a common good that is far more 
effective if everyone has access to it, just like vaccination.  The 
pandemics that swept the entire world for milllennia ended for a 
reason.  This reason was a combination of state-sponsored public 
health measures (for dyptheria, typhus and similar bacterial 
diseases) and vaccination (for viruses like polo and smallpox).  If 
these efforts were privately run then the vaccinations might still 
help many people, but the risks of a vaccine that only lasts a 
decade or two (ad many do) would be far higher and public health 
measures would not protect people nearly as well.  

ObTrav:  Have the PCs visit a amber or red zone world (likely the 
only worlds in the Imperium without at least access to basic 
medical tech) with old style epidemic disease, and have the visit 
occur during an outbreak.  The history of the old pandemics was 
horrifying and even if the PCs were immune, life would be rough 
(especially if anyone figured out they were immune).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 00:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 23:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote

> What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a 
> fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who think
> they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to complain
> that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and agitate
> for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact that lead
> to such a system in the first place, since the rationale that supports
> it can be easily used to support increases, and whether society wants
> to try and "buy" them off).

I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.
 
> There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family (?).
>  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those who
> went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this is
> the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of
> "non-working" class in Europe....

Given how rapidly automation is advancing (much modern office 
work will be obsolete in under 20 years), we are almost certainly 
going to have a combination of increasing GNPs *and* an 
increasing number of people out of work in the entire First World.  
Why should they not share in the bounty of an economy that no 
longer has need for (and in fact, likely cannot deal with) for 
everyone to be employed.  

Look at www.technocracyinc.org for some unusual ideas (that I 
agree with) on this front.

Ob Trav: I wonder how many High Tech worlds in the Imperium 
have large unemployed populations.  Finding a way into space on a 
tramp freighter and Imperial service are likely popular ways around 
this lack of on-world work.


-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 01:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 00:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700
References: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com> <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020424010057.A11114@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
> that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.

Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from
firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure
they often use are suicides.  They also fail to mention that at least
three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other
criminals in disputes over illicit drugs,+or police shooting criminals
engaged in felonies.  Subtracting those, we are left with no more than
3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 01:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 00:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204240723.AAA08458@ping.iii.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

>On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> 
>> Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
>> being paid for by the occupants of the city.
>
>Then why subsidise?  You're forcing the well-off to pay for water and
>electricity for the less well-off.

The issue at hand was sanitation, and the reason is simple: good sanitation
and the like is in everyone's interest.  Do you really want sewage pooling
in your neighbor's yard because he can't or won't pay to clean it up?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 01:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 00:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com> <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and that
> it soon will be be one in much of the First World.

Despite living in a country that subsidises its unemployed to a higher
standard of living than its part-time workers, I couldn't agree with
you less.  A guaranteed income is a luxury that a first-world country
can afford, and may even become an entitlement of citizenship, but it
is far from a fundamental right.

Fundamental rights pertain only to things that you may not have taken
from you.  All else is merely benefits or entitlements of a particular
society.


> Given how rapidly automation is advancing (much modern office work
> will be obsolete in under 20 years), we are almost certainly going
> to have a combination of increasing GNPs *and* an increasing number
> of people out of work in the entire First World.

I partially agree with you.  Not on the subject of the obsolescence of
office work; that's been projected "in 20 years" for as long as cheap
and abundant fusion power has, for much the same reasons.

Increasing GNPs, certainly.  Increasing unemployment, possibly.  More
people deciding that they can support themselves in comfort on less
work, yes.  If it wasn't for the government's anti-incentives, I'd be
working comfortably in a part-time job now instead of deciding whether
I'd rather work full-time with buckets of cash and no time to spend
it, or not work at all and have heaps of time to pursue open-source
programming but not save any money.


> Why should they not share in the bounty of an economy that no longer
> has need for (and in fact, likely cannot deal with) for everyone to
> be employed.

An economy can *always* deal with more workers, if left to market
forces.  If there's a surplus of any labour, skilled or unskilled,
wages for those workers can drop until goods or services become viable
to take up all the surplus.  However, quite understandable political
interests and regulations get in the way in practice.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 03:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Wed Apr 24 02:25:02 2002
Subject: Only a month late but --- was Re: [TML] Who are we?
Message-ID: <1B52330D-5764-11D6-B7BF-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

100+ Digests to catch up on...

Is anyone archiving these? ;-)

Name: Dominic Mooney
Age: 30
Country: UK (currently time sharing between Leeds and Liverpool)
Favorite version of Traveller: T4.1 playtest with HG2 for ships, MT as 
fallback
Military Service: None
Favorite Supplement: High Guard 2, Hard Times, Milieu 0 Campaign, 
mumble-mumble Rim of Fire, Far Trader
Favorite Sector: Solomani Rim
Favorite Race: Zhodani
Favorite Empire: Solomani Confederation
Favorite Worlds: The Promise Subsector ones during Hard Times


---------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com----------
     MacOS X 10.1 - Unix with Style
"Reality, is something that you rise above..
We don't see things as they are,  we see them as we are."
Rich - Marillion - .com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 04:08:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 24 03:08:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424010057.A11114@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204241231200.20326-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

(This seems too much off-topic, I will continue this only on tml-chat, but
will not forward this there, because Robert is not there.)

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
> > that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.
> Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

Well, considering that advancing technology seems to require less and less
labor to work it, I think that we will have more and more unemployed
people in the future. 

Not everybody is capable of working in a service profession. 

This _is_ a big problem. Hopefully we will make up something...

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231704.EVL07840@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC73DFE.1550.56B779@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 13:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST 
> series is that everyone is an officer.

That didn't bother me in the slightest, seeing as there were often 
engineering officers doing what we'd have ratings employed at. 
Obviously the later Star Trek period saw a lot of 'job inflation' in 
the Federation. Probably some bureaucrat thought it'd help morale or 
recruitment if everyone in Starfleet got to be an officer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74248.6442.6778E7@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 15:52, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Of course, you can't beat an autonomous robot infantryman for 
> sheer terror.  It's probably a bit harder to kill than a real 
> infantryman, and it's probably a much better shot. And if you 
> manage to kill it, all you've done is trash some electronic 
> parts.  Not very satisfying.  And you probably can't capture 
> one - even if you caught one in a net, it's probably too 
> dangerous.
> 
> I think that the first versions should be some sort of spider-
> legged robot along the lines of some of Rodney Brooks' 
> creations.  They should hide in the daytime and come out at 
> night.  They should be airdropped into the rear, and they 
> should be used to spy on things.  Also, if discovered, they 
> should shoot every warm body they see.  Maybe even give them 
> a blade or two to become an intelligent lawnmower.
> 
> The psychological implications are great.  Now, who wants to 
> go on patrol tonight, knowing that if you find one of these 
> things, it's going to make meat by-product out of most of 
> your patrol?
> 
> I think a gadget like this is already "do-able"

Pity they'll be rather vunerable to man-portable EMP generators, which 
can be made really cheaply.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:42:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:42:38 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC5E36E.801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CC74249.2877.6779B3@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 15:42, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> > Well the importance of even centurions in much of that strife argues 
> > for them being considered officers - very few coups in the modern world 
> > are started and managed by sergeants.
> 
> Au contraire. A number of coups in Africa have been started by Non-coms. 
> IIRC one of the Liberian coup leaders started as a Master Sergeant, 
> wasn't he? Robert someting or another...
> 
> Also, I believe it was a number of Non-coms who started one of the coups 
> against Noriega in Panama, just before the US invasion.

Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are by officers in the 
Captain to Colonel range, with the next group being those run by 
Generals, though these are quite often one General replacing another 
and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have to do more 
reading, methinks.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:45:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:45:25 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8eb83b1f99b@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74249.9558.677A81@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 17:26, David P. Summers wrote:

> A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more people living on 
> public assistance.  (It may not be 50%, but it will depend on what 
> the level is set at).

Curiously even though this is effectively the case in this country 
unemployment and beneficiary numbers are more dependant on other 
factors than on how much money is paid out to 'dole bludgers' and I 
very much doubt that this would change unless quite a lot more money 
was paid to them.
 
> What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a 
> fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who 
> think they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to 
> complain that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and 
> agitate for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact 
> that lead to such a system in the first place, since the rationale 
> that supports it can be easily used to support increases, and whether 
> society wants to try and "buy" them off).
> 
> There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family 
> (?).  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those 
> who went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this 
> is the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of 
> "non-working" class in Europe....

Until the economy is in a state where the demand for labour is such 
that industries are short of it and people are still refusing to work 
it really doesn't matter if some (or most) of the people not working 
aren't because they can't be bothered.

However I do agree that if the level of support is high enough some 
people will chosse to simply not bother to work. In fact it can be )and 
is) arguned that the level of support to solo parents in this country 
is at that level.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:48:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:48:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019586447.9084.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204231803.g3NI3xJ17762@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3CC74248.24093.67780F@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 11:27, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Steven Hudson writes:
> 
> >   ObTrav: the IN is _the_ crucial piece of the 3I's public 
> > infrastructure; the Throne maintains an effective monopoly
> > on its own ownership. Right?
> 
> Well, by definition the IN is only controlled by the Imperium.  However, the
> Throne does not have an effective monopoly on interstellar naval forces.
> 
> However, the other public infrastructure controlled by the throne is just as
> crucial (though, once again, not a monopoly).  That's starports.

Likewise the X-boat system and the survey apparatus, though again these 
aren't a monoploy.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com>
References: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 19:29, JR Holmes wrote:

> Actually, the Social Security fund was never intended to operate in
> the manner you state.  Your "Instead" is, in fact, the way it was
> intended to operate from the start.  If that hadn't been the case,
> Social Security wouldn't have been able to start paying benefits at
> its inception.
> 
> That original structure was founded on the idea that the pool of
> wage-earning taxpayers would always exceed the pool of recipients.  As
> the US went through the demographic surge known as the Baby Boom, the
> pool of taxpayers expanded greatly while the pool of Social Security
> retirees wasn't greatly increasing.
> 
> With that large surge of money going into the system, it represented
> an irresistible opportunity to the politicians to expand the benefits,
> which is exactly what they did (arguably, not too much of a pork
> barrel).  Further, the US government also changed the law to allow use
> of the Social Security surplus to pay for some of the Reagan deficits
> (which, depending upon your viewpoint, might be where the bulk of the
> pork might be found).
> 
> Now, as the members of the Baby Boom start approaching retirement,
> there are fewer members of the pool of wage-earning taxpayers who are
> paying to support a demographic bulge of retirees.  Had the government
> instead simply banked the surplus at a modest interest rate, it would
> not be seeing the oncoming retirement crisis (instead, we would have
> had a different crisis some time ago).

Hmm. Makes NZ's situation look even worse than it is. Our 
superannuation system was supposed to be a form of government 
subsidised savings, but in the 70s everything got put into a 
consolidated fund for efficencies' sake (actually IMO it was so that 
creative spending practices were easier to hide) and mysteriously by 
the mid-80s all the super fund seemed to have gotten lost. Theft by 
government, ain't it grand?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423190732.A7743@4dv.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CC74404.23217.6E3D9E@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 19:07, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > 
> > Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
> > being paid for by the occupants of the city.
> 
> Then why subsidise?  You're forcing the well-off to pay for water and
> electricity for the less well-off.  To an extent this may be
> appropriate, but I wonder to what extent, exactly.  Anyone deserves
> enough water for drinking to keep from dying and bathing to keep
> leprosy at bay, but any more than that should be on a pay-as-you-go
> basis.

If the wealthy want those they pass on the street to not offend their 
noses, why shouldn't they contribute towards the lower orders hygene?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:57:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:57:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74404.13930.6E3CAD@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 0:39, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Permission gladly granted!  Oz is more advanced than the World's 
> Biggest Banana Republic in many areas, brewing comes first to mind.

That must make NZ incredibly advenced then. :)

As a New Zealander I just had to make that dig. Can't have the Aussies 
thinking they brew better beer than we.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:01:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:01:43 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
References: <20020424063707.194DD27A34@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>

Kiri Aradia Morgan posted:
> 
> I'm so glad I have all you people to tell me these things.  They are NOT
> things I'd ever want to find out on my own!
> 
<snip> 
> > I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
> > more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

This is also the reason, I believe, a number of LRRP members in Viet Nam
ate only local food..or so I've heard. Some of the military vets on list
can probably confirm or lay this to rest.

An interesting sidenote for Traveller is the experience on one of the
many
Apollo flights. Apollo 8, I think. 'Twould seem one of the astronauts
had
a bout with some food that didn't agree with him. It hit when they had
been
in orbit preparatory to leaving for the moon. No one informed Mission 
Control and they were told to proceed (lose out on going to the moon
'cause
of the trots? As if!).

Unfortunately, the only "solids" toilet on board was in the form of
waterproof
bags with an adhesive on the inner rim of the opening. The adhesive
didn't
quite take. Everyone helped clean up the mess that had spread from the
Lunar Module, where the sick astronaut took care of business, to the
Command
Module.

A couple of weeks later, a poor Navy diver opened the hatch after the
capsule splashed down and almost fell off the capsule's floats when the
stench of two weeks of unwashed bodies and other things in something the
size of a small walk-in closet hit him.

Oh, and the space shuttle itself also tends to be aired out after each
mission. And, yes, the real toilet can get backed up. It happened about
5-6 missions ago. It was one to the ISS when the space station didn't
have
a permanent working toilet; the rookie on the mission was told by
Mission
Control to break out the long-sleeved plastic glove. It really was his
responsibility, not an act of bad humor.

He was considered the hero of the mission and I'm NOT joking.

So if a PC ever wants to work his passage by doing maintenance work...

GMs can truly have fun with PCs in small starships. <evil grin>

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74719.7719.7A4A2B@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 21:46, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Well, until I washed when I got back, that was the case.  
> After a few weeks, I couldn't smell myself, and I don't think 
> that anyone could really smell me, unlike the people who 
> smelled like soap.

That's my experience, too. It's one of the reasons we didn't like 
officers carping on about shaving in the bush - even a little bit of 
soap smells (and you have to re-apply camo cream on all that nice clean 
face, and any cuts are likely to get infected).
 
> I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago, 
> and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how 
> you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin 
> gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.

I found that after a week or two my hands became a lot less sensitive 
to extreme temperatures (like hot metal canteens of tea) even though 
the skin didn't thicken - it went sort of glassy, though. I also found 
that you didn't notice your own smell or that of your unit, but other 
units did smell a bit. Handy in bush with visibilty measured in metres 
or less.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <DAV32IKcQEF2a9jE11o0001c2c0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC747A3.30593.7C6423@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 22:09, Samuel D. Weiss wrote:

> John T. Kwon wrote,
> 
> >I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago,
> and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how
> you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin
> gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.<
> 
> That is one of my favorite movie lines.
> As you note, he was joking. He was asked why he didn't bathe. His response
> was that body oils, combined with sweat and dirt formed a natural barrier to
> water. (He was dirty because he didn't bathe, he didn't bathe because he was
> going to get dirty in a trench anyway.)
> Later in the movie when they come upon a group of female Soviet soldiers, he
> climbs into a hot tub with one of them fully clothed.
> 
> A really fun movie.
> :)

It's one of my favourites for getting idjits who've watched too much 
rambo to watch before playing in military or pseudo-military games. 
That and The Wild Bunch to instill proper respect for machineguns.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:11:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:11:43 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC748AA.24912.8066F4@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 20:06, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:

> > I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes
> > carries.  There's more than one reason for snipers to be
> > non-smokers. 
> 
> I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
> for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
> withstanding!

The way cigarette smoke clings is one of the reasons I seldom go to 
pubs these days. It's also way we used to try and get all the smokers 
assigned to other sections before an exercise (that and the fact that 
smoker's cough is not a good thing to be having in a tactical 
situation).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424010057.A11114@4dv.net>
References: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CC74B22.1400.8A0C31@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 1:00, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > 
> > I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
> > that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.
> 
> Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

Why shouldn't someone get something if they can't do anything because 
there's no opening for them? A few years back here in NZ a document 
from the Treasury was leaked which reported that in order to keep the 
inflation rate under 2% (the target at that time, IIRC) interest rates 
would have to be maintained at a point which would also maintain the 
unemployment rate at over 6%. Now if a country is going to do something 
like this in order that its businesses, investors and workers (though I 
have my doubts about there having been any concerns about the latter at 
that time) might prosper, surely it has an obligation to look after 
those that it has ensured cannot be employed?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:21:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:21:54 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CC74B22.1369.8A0CF3@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 17:50, Timothy Little wrote:

> I partially agree with you.  Not on the subject of the obsolescence of
> office work; that's been projected "in 20 years" for as long as cheap
> and abundant fusion power has, for much the same reasons.

Like the 'paperless office'. :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:25:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:25:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423231739.A10823@4dv.net>
References: <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>; from j-man@attbi.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:43PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CC74B22.11314.8A0B4B@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 23:17, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Don't worry--no economy is too sick to recover.  This ain't the Great
> Depression (thankfully: do _any_ of us want to make our children
> miserable with tales of the beginning of the century?).  I rather
> think that things are in the slow beginnings of a turn-around.  What
> really worries me is the war.  Wars wreck havoc on economies.  The
> reasons that the Great War and WWII did not on ours (ask Germans how
> the 20s and late 40s were) is that in both we had a good supply of
> folks to whom we were the only producers around.
> 
> Look at the '70s; at the early '90s.  What worries me is that our
> current war is going to make the late '00s nasty indeed.

Which war? The US expenditure on 'war' was quite high even before 
11Sep2001.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:27:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:27:51 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC74BB9.7090.8C5923@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 6:54, David Smart wrote:

> This is also the reason, I believe, a number of LRRP members in Viet Nam
> ate only local food..or so I've heard. Some of the military vets on list
> can probably confirm or lay this to rest.

AFAIK it's true, and was also done by Commonwealth forces in Malaysia.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:48:02 2002
Subject: Stench (was Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>

----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....


> "Robert A. Uhl" says
> >
> >I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head
> >hurts:-(
> >
> After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless
> they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which
> case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.
>
> My roommate could smell me when I came back, after he had
> bathed.
>
> In the field after a few weeks, I could smell bathed people
> at a considerable distance if they were upwind of me.  But it
> didn't work the other way for them (if I was upwind of them).


There used to be this show on TV about Vietnam (I'm sure that somebody
remembers it), and I remember a particular episode where the platoon was
going to take an attractive female new reporter on patrol with them.  All
the guys in the platoon showered, shaved, and slapped on the colone so they
would look godd when the woman arrived, and the platoon sergant chewed them
out for it...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 07:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 24 06:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <20020424000941.9F23227A05@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424145442.00bc2b80@mail.pi.se>

>Message: 5
>Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:51:57 -0500
>From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hello!

>For anyone that might know the answer:
>
>While working on my Mire landgrab, I have come up with a question that I 
>hope someone on the TML might know an answer for.  (Preferably a correct 
>one.  :-) )
>
>What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain in 
>order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?

If you ignore special cases, such as 3:2 orbit resonance (like 
Pluto/Neptune) or 1:1 orbit resonances (like tadpole orbits), and also 
assume the orbits must be stable over long times, like the age of our solar 
system, you basically have two limiters.

The first and more strict one is that the orbits won't be stable in the 
"forbidden zones" of another planet. The simplest way to think of this is 
to think of the Lagrange points of the system. The LG-1 point (usually this 
is considered to be the equilibrium point between the two bodies) separates 
where a particle should orbit either body. So in your example, the planet 
outside Mire will have an LG-1 point a bit inward. Mire can't orbit between 
that point and the outer planet, it must orbit between the local sun and 
the point. Like this

SUN ---- Mire --- Outer Planet's LG-1 --- Outer Planet

The exact breaking point here depends on the masses involved, but the 
example you give is with certainty stable unless the outer planet is 
extremely eccentric and it has a serious mass compared to the local sun. 
For an Earth-size planet around a Solar-mass star, the LG-1 is only about 
1% of the total distance away from the planet, or about four times further 
away than the moon.

The second one has to do with stability radii in multiple planet systems. 
This can be approximated by using Hill radii equations (for "real" 
calculations you need serious computing runs)  Again, this is an 
approximation and gross simplification, and I am not a professional 
astronomer so I may well misunderstand the math and theory.

But if we assume the central star of your example has a mass of 1/3 of our 
Sun, and Mire is Earth-size and orbits in a circular orbit at 0.2 AU the 
outer planet can orbit at 0.3 AU as long as it is not more massive than 
20-40 Earths (or about twice the size of Neptune or Uranus) without 
disrupting Mire's orbit. It would still affect it, though. If the outer 
planet is Earth-size too, you could potentially have a stable orbit at 0.25 
AU for the outer world.

If we take the original 0.4 AU, the world could be Saturn-size or even a 
bit bigger and Mire would still be stable. For a Jupiter-size world, you 
would likely need a distance of about 0.5 AU from the central star, so in 
this case the next stable orbit would be farther away than the Traveller 
orbit number says.

However, you could get a 3:1 orbit resonance (Mire does three orbits in one 
orbit of the outer world) by placing the second world at about 0.41 AU, and 
in this case Mire might be stable even if the outer planet is as big as 
Jupiter, or larger. This world would still affect the orbit a bit, though.

>The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a 
>distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.  Can 
>that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without 
>affecting Mire's orbit?

As above, unless the outer planet is a large gas giant it is IMO very 
likely the orbit would be stable.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 07:34:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 24 06:34:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
(whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
aged and infirm.  

Something I keep telling my children:

Every able bodied person has an obligation to defend the 
weak.  That's a rather broad obligation, but it's there.  If 
you see someone beating someone, you have to stop it and/or 
get help.  And if someone is unable to work, or is starving, 
you have to help them.

Now, whether or not the government is any good at these 
things is something else.  There are times when you can't 
wait for a policeman to come.  And there are times when you 
can't wait for social services to get their act together.  
You don't have to shoulder the whole world, but you have to 
do something.  Just standing there is not an option.
________________
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <F42fOy8Wx1jgTGAP2tb00002903@hotmail.com>

In mail, "Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com> said...

<SNIP>
>If by "tech dreams" you mean any new research, I disagree with the
>philosophy implicit in your statement.  If, on the other hand, you mean
>pie-in-the-sky nonsense, we're on the same page.
>.
>.
>.
>
>I don't know if the Cromatica system will turn out to be research or
>pie-in-the-sky nonsense.
</SNIP>

Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they' wanted to trial in 
the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras were linked to a database 
containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to alert the local 
police when a 'non-desirable' tried entering the city center (note; in 
England, shopping centers/malls can exclude people for illegal behviour, so 
this is not considered a violation of their rights).
Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of 10,000 bodies 
would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals free to go about 
their crimes...
Does anyone know what happened to this idea?

ObTrav: quite a few; PCs and/or friends get 'misidentified' (either way ;-), 
homicidal maniac gets into a busy shopping complex, "robo-mountie" suffers 
silicon senility and starts arresting *everybody*... ad infinitum.

Jeff.

"You want me to stand *where*??"

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:04:03 2002
Subject: Stench (was Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
In-Reply-To: <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <B8EC093B.58417%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/24/02 5:52 AM, Christopher Pratt at cdpratt@gatecom.com wrote:

> There used to be this show on TV about Vietnam (I'm sure that somebody
> remembers it), and I remember a particular episode where the platoon was
> going to take an attractive female new reporter on patrol with them.  All
> the guys in the platoon showered, shaved, and slapped on the colone so they
> would look godd when the woman arrived, and the platoon sergant chewed them
> out for it...

"Tour of Duty".  Strangely, that very episode was on yesterday.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-lethal weapons
Message-ID: <B8EC0B99.58449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all.  Earlier this month someone sent me the URL for an
interesting website on how non-lethal weapons work.  Which I have, of
course, lost.  If that kind soul could resend, I would be most grateful.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]

> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they' 
> wanted to trial in 
> the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras were linked 
> to a database 
> containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to 
> alert the local 
> police when a 'non-desirable' tried entering the city center 
> (note; in 
> England, shopping centers/malls can exclude people for 
> illegal behviour, so 
> this is not considered a violation of their rights).
> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of 
> 10,000 bodies 
> would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals 
> free to go about 
> their crimes...

Ummm, not quite...

As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
their identity will be free to go about their business.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:24:02 2002
Subject: Only a month late but --- was Re: [TML] Who are we?
In-Reply-To: <1B52330D-5764-11D6-B7BF-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <20020424142311.66979.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> Is anyone archiving these? ;-)

I think I have most of them, but I haven't had tome to
sort through them yet.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:36:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:36:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Who are we?
In-Reply-To: <20020424142311.66979.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEFNDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Citizens of the TML at http://www.downport.com/traveller/TML.shtml has been
around a few years. I'm getting ready to do a periodic update if anyone want
s to add /delete / modify any or their bio info on there.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
> --- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> > Is anyone archiving these? ;-)
>
> I think I have most of them, but I haven't had tome to
> sort through them yet.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <B8EC12F8.58455%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/24/02 7:20 AM, Matthew Bond at mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk wrote:

> 
> Ummm, not quite...
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

So they run undesirables out of town?  Nice.  Where do these people go?  And
who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or just those
detained by the police at some previous time?  What about those who have
already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going to be harassed
by the police.

This brings up an interesting question for PC visiting a relatively high law
level world.  Are they entered into a database because adventurers are a
suspicious class of people?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <DAV35SmLAztxc1o8yfo00004bf8@hotmail.com>

Visionics is the name of the company providing (some of) these systems.

There's a pretty fair article about the thing at:

http://www.mediaeater.com/cameras/news/10-2001.html

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:59:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:59:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B87@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Bond [mailto:mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk]
> Ummm, not quite...
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons 
> banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer 
> to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.
> 
> Matt

That said, of course, you are right that there may be false negatives...
so of the 4 failures on two will be innocents inconvenienced by s
policeman asking them who they are, and two will be 'undesirables' who
get to roam the area unmolested... of course, the next camera that sees
them might well pick them out anyway if the failure rate is 'per check'.
And if the police have copies of the mugshots available in their patrol
car (or downloadable to a handheld device) then they can swiftly check
that the person they are questioning is indeed on the list or not.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <200204241458.EXD05545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
<snip about the "smart" camera system>

The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
be.

Factor in the following:

a.  Criminal warrant issued, but no picture
b.  Criminal warrant issued, but not entered into database in 
a timely manner
c.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
found not guilty, data not updated
d.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
does his time, is released, and data not updated

I bet the actual error rate is over 50 percent.  Just go on 
the web and look at the state of Maryland's sex offender 
registry.  They state up front that they can't keep it up to 
date.  They don't really know where these people live.  I 
spoke to someone in that department, and they said that the 
only way to find out accurate information about a particular 
individual is to call and ask for an actual check - they go 
out and find the individual in question.

The culture and infrastructure for systems like these to be 
near 100 percent accurate do not exist.

________________
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:05:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:05:46 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA2270D@USCHM203>

All those infantry odor stories bring back some memories. In my experience,
I never noticed my own smell or that of anyone else around, though as others
have said, after a shower back in the barracks, you could smell the reek off
of your dirty clothes.
One thing you could smell, if you were on regular duty, was a company
returning from several weeks in the field. I swear you could smell them from
about a hundred yards away, and it only grew in intensity until you thought
a herd of goats was passing by.
Probably why my Gunny called everyone "Goddamn goatsmellers!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <200204241509.g3OF9LD01728@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
...
>ObTrav - Why aren't stewards paid more?  Providing creature comforts for 
>crew and passengers surely must be very important.  Good stewards control 
>morale in the uniformed services and can lure paying high passengers to your 
>nondescript Beowulf.

  Economics? If Steward-0 is six weeks F/T at Chez Ronaldo's, then
there's going to be lots of those people available. As it happens
I subscribe to the "spaceship pilots are going to be quite common,
actually" school but the relatively specialized (spaceship) skills
are still going to have greater market value through rarity.

  OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than
Pilot-3 or Engineering-3 - those latter don't clearly affect the
bottom line, after all.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For the Gun Bunnies out there...
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020424111106.00b8da70@mail.charter.net>

and I is one... (Ok...compared to some I'm a fluffy white house rabbit 
while they are dangerous cave guarding rabbits with sharp pointy teeth...)

<http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/modernfirepower/>

Currently in Playtest, you have to a Pyramid subscriber to access the 
playtest files and boards.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:17:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:17:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <200204241458.EXD05545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC7743B.26719.1EA397@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 10:58, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
> <snip about the "smart" camera system>
> 
> The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
> the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
> Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
> to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
> serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
> incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
> be.

How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
least keep the false positive rate down.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B88@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tod Glenn [mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com]
> Sent: 24 April 2002 15:45
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
> 
> 
> on 4/24/02 7:20 AM, Matthew Bond at mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Ummm, not quite...
> > 
> > As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons 
> banned/convicted
> > etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> > flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and 
> either arrested
> > or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> > bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police 
> officer to confirm
> > their identity will be free to go about their business.
> 
> So they run undesirables out of town?  Nice.

Hardly. They would only be restricted from the main shopping precincts.

>  Where do these 
> people go?

Local shops in the area they lived.

>  And
> who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
> crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or 
> just those
> detained by the police at some previous time?  What about 
> those who have
> already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going 
> to be harassed
> by the police.

I would expect that the idea was to only inclued persistent
shoplifters/vandals/muggers/car thieves etc
And it is hardly and great difficulty to flag each record with an expiry
date.

So upon a criminal coming before the courts for the umpteenth time for
such offences the court can order that their 'mugshot' be placed on the
system for a specified length of time. If they stop offending then after
that time they are removed from the database.

> This brings up an interesting question for PC visiting a 
> relatively high law
> level world.  Are they entered into a database because 
> adventurers are a
> suspicious class of people?

I can certainly see this happening on certain planets who want to keep
track of 'offworlders'. IIRC the second Stainless Steel Rat book
(Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge, I think) by Harry Harrison had such a
culture as the main antagonists.

Matt 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For the Gun Bunnies out there...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020424111106.00b8da70@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3CC7779E.14945.2BE21E@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 11:14, Mark Urbin wrote:

> and I is one... (Ok...compared to some I'm a fluffy white house rabbit 
> while they are dangerous cave guarding rabbits with sharp pointy teeth...)
> 
> <http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/modernfirepower/>
> 
> Currently in Playtest, you have to a Pyramid subscriber to access the 
> playtest files and boards.

Actually while the boards and stuff is still up, it's now out of playtest. 
Lots of fun stuff though, including good (IMO) rules for silencers and so 
on.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn, 
Playtester, Modern Firepower.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:50:39PM +1000
References: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com> <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020424093444.A12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:50:39PM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Fundamental rights pertain only to things that you may not have taken
> from you.

I like the way P.J. O'Rourke phrases it: a right is something which
does not take from anyone else.  One has a right to freedom of
religion--until one starts practicing human sacrifice.  One has a
right to freedom of speech--until one incites a riot.  One has a right
to freedom of armament--until one attacks another.  One has a right to
privacy--until one starts hiding bodies.  One has a right to enjoy
whatever particular perversion tickles one's fancy--unless it's rape.
And so on.

None of these impinge upon anyone else.  A right _cannot_ impinge on
anyone else.  When it does, it ceases to be a right.  When something
is an impingement from the very beginning (e.g. handouts--the money
must be taken from someone), it cannot be a right at all.

> If it wasn't for the government's anti-incentives, I'd be working
> comfortably in a part-time job now instead of deciding whether I'd
> rather work full-time with buckets of cash and no time to spend it,
> or not work at all and have heaps of time to pursue open-source
> programming but not save any money.

In fairness, it's not purely governmental disincentives but also
corporate culture.  At least from where I stand most folks do not want
a three-months-a-year employee.  Which is a pity.

> An economy can *always* deal with more workers, if left to market
> forces.  If there's a surplus of any labour, skilled or unskilled,
> wages for those workers can drop until goods or services become viable
> to take up all the surplus.  However, quite understandable political
> interests and regulations get in the way in practice.

Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
out sewage.  I daresay I would.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:48:02 2002
Subject: Stench (was Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
In-Reply-To: <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>; from cdpratt@gatecom.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:25AM -0400
References: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20020424094725.B12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:25AM -0400, Christopher Pratt wrote:
> 
> There used to be this show on TV about Vietnam (I'm sure that somebody
> remembers it), and I remember a particular episode where the platoon was
> going to take an attractive female new reporter on patrol with them.  All
> the guys in the platoon showered, shaved, and slapped on the colone so they
> would look good when the woman arrived, and the platoon sergant chewed them
> out for it...

Judging by my father's tales of the Navy--back when it was a man's
navy--they probably figured it was well worth it.  Heck, I know from
Scout camp that a few days makes the one girl in camp the most
beautiful woman in the world.  I can only image that after some months
out the effect becomes rather more pronounced.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <OF113CE2E0.677F0151-ON85256BA5.00569E86@pheaa.org>







>Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
>willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
>out sewage.  I daresay I would.

True but because there are so few people willing to do it i bet the pay for
workers to do that job is really good 8P one of the things i believe is a
factor in how you get paid is the number of people able or willing to do
the job. Lots of people want to be basketball stars but very few are able
to play basketball at that level of ability. Lots of people would rather
make 15 bucks an hour instead of 5 but very few are willing to clean sewers
to get it.

anyway hasta

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400
References: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> 
> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
> aged and infirm.  

I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?

People who cannot work are another matter.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In the UNIX world, being dependent on a GUI is the same thing as not
being a sysadmin.                                        --BigZaphod

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:58:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:58:10 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <3CC748AA.24912.8066F4@localhost>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>

At 12:07 AM 4/25/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
> > for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
> > withstanding!
>
>The way cigarette smoke clings is one of the reasons I seldom go to
>pubs these days. It's also way we used to try and get all the smokers
>assigned to other sections before an exercise (that and the fact that
>smoker's cough is not a good thing to be having in a tactical
>situation).

The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people 
having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for 
days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by 
smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.

ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 10:00:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 09:00:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>; from mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:20:51PM +0100
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <20020424095613.D12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:20:51PM +0100, Matthew Bond wrote:
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 10:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 24 09:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <F2090Q5B71GmFs40SIq0000224a@hotmail.com>

From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)

     "Economics? If Steward-0 is six weeks F/T at Chez Ronaldo's, then
there's going to be lots of those people available. As it happens I 
subscribe to the "spaceship pilots are going to be quite common,
actually" school but the relatively specialized (spaceship) skills are still 
going to have greater market value through rarity."


Mr. Hudson,

     Yes, most likely economics or the usual human "we'll muddle through" 
and "it's good enough" attitudes.  It's only a week after all, you can get 
something good to eat, or sleep in a clean room, or whatever after we reach 
our next port.

     "OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than
Pilot-3 or Engineering-3 - those latter don't clearly affect the bottom 
line, after all."

     Most definitely.  Here in the Biggest Little and in many other locales, 
restaurants advertise the chefs they have on staff.  There is a constant 
struggle to lure "names" away from your competitors and hold onto those you 
have.  Naturally for ever heavy hitter, there are dozens of third assistant 
bottle washers.
     If I were GMing today (alas), I'd most certainly present the PCs with 
an NPC super-duper-steward.  That fellow would ask for more pay and be a bit 
of a prima-donna to handle, but he would also fill the cabins with high 
passengers and have high skilled, low wage NPC crewmen begging the PCs to 
sign on.  Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he 
needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to 
insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.

PC - "Cilantro!??!  Just where in hades are we going to find cilantro on 
Roup?  Good Sweet Strephon, Melmotte, cilantro?!"

Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop 
for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze 
baronne merde?"


     Sincerely,
     Larsen
>
>   Steven Hudson
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 11:02:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 10:02:06 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>; from gridlore@mindspring.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <3CC748AA.24912.8066F4@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020424110133.E12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also
> people having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

So you make sure they're not addicts--you don't forbid them to smoke,
period.  Or you allow them other forms of nicotine: chewing tobacco,
while it has a distinctive odour, I don't think is as strong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`You know, there's a word for people who
 think that everyone is out to get them...'
`Yes! Perceptive!'           --Woody Allen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 11:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr 24 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEGDDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Hey, good plot device. Your team has been assigned to popularize tobacco use
among young Vargr to reduce their olfactory effectiveness should they decide
to join the other side in the brewing dissatisfaction with the current
Imperial borders.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for
> days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by
> smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.
>
> ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 12:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Apr 24 11:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus> <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net> <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com> <200204240037330379.D4645864@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CC6F5FF.5070407@telocity.com>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

>>Hunter,
>>
>>The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
>>concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
>>printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
>>that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
>>likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.
>>
>>Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
>>into a single product for your Aide line?
>>
>
>It depends on what changes would be needed for a specific on-screen version.
>
Nothing big, I don't think.  The problem I have with the standard layout 
is that the page length is greater than the screen height at a readable 
resolution. When I go to full page mode, the resolution on my 19" 
monitor is something like 80%, and my tired old eyes can't handle that. 
<g> On smaller monitors, say a laptop, it would be even worse.  But when 
I set the resolution to a nice reading size, I only get a half to 
two-thirds of the page on the screen. Because of the two column format, 
I then have scroll up and down on every page. Scrolling up and down like 
that is a regular pain, especially when charts and tables are involved.

I can think of a couple of "easy" fixes, first if you provided a single 
column format, then it wouldn't really matter if the page length 
exceeded the screen height, as I would only have to scroll down as I 
read.  Alternatively, and a better (but most likely more difficult 
approach)  would be to reduce the page lengths by about half, then each 
page would fit on the screen in comfortable reading resolution.

Hunter, I don't know if either approach would qualify as easy, but 
consideration for something like that would be most appreciated by this 
member of your market.

Please, note I'm not suggesting you change the format for the 
printer-friendly version, that looks very nice. It's just that also 
having a screen-friendly version would be nice, too.

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 12:24:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Apr 24 11:24:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
>
> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]
>
>> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they'
>> wanted to trial in  the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras
were linked
>> to a database containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to
[deletion]
>> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
>> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of
>> 10,000 bodies would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals
>> free to go about  their crimes...
>

Matthew Bond replied:
>As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
>etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
>flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
>or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
>bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
>their identity will be free to go about their business.

I think you've both misstated what it means.  The CCTV will look at all
persons in the mall.  It will misidentify 4% of them.  If 10,000 persons are
scanned, 200 non-criminals will be wrongly identified as criminals and 200
criminals will be wrongly identified as non-criminals.

Jeff's error was to apply the 4% to the population of the city; only the
population being scanned by CCTV is at issue.  (That may, of course, be the
entire population of the city.)  Matthew's error was to apply the 4% only to
the people flagged for police attention.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 13:08:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 24 12:08:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHMEALCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

The only real PC floppy drive compatibility issues relate to the 5-1/4 in
floppies when using the same media between 360KB and 1.2MB drives. Although
a 1.2MB drive can write both 360KB and 1.2MB disks, a serious problem may
occur if the 1.2MB drive erases or writes to a disk previously formatted
with a 360KB drive and the data is then attempted to be read from a 360KB
drive. This will cause random data read errors due to the fact that the
1.2MB drive head is narrower than the 360KB drive head. Thus when the 360KB
drive reads the 1.2MB drive data from the disk, it inadvertently GLEANS the
previous data written by the original 360KB drive.

-Shawn R Sears-
(MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, A+, N+, CCNA)

CCNP Pending!  :-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 13:13:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 12:13:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423190649.00cb5d28@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20424.111826.4l6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I just finished reading Coventry.  Coventry was his "your right to swing 
> your fist ends at someone else's nose" system.
> That was America after the Second Revolution, that was civilization.
> If you rejected Coventry or were denied Coventry, you were sent to the 
> walled off section where the strong ruled the weak.

No. *Coventry* was where you got sent if you rejected the *Covenant*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 13:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 24 12:23:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231147070.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEAMCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> > >
> > > I don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
> > > backgammon on the Metro.
> >
> > Ah, but there's also solitaire.
> >


For $399 you can get one with a built in cell phone, wireless message
service, email, and web browser

www.handspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:02:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:02:12 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people

>having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

Great. Give people one more reason not to reenlist. When I was in the
Marines the smoking rate was easily over 50%, at least among grunts. This
was back in the 80s, of course, so I imagine this has gone down some. 
As far as people having nic fits not being useful in combat, I wonder how
the millions of smoking combat veterans of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam would
feel about that.
We almost had a base-wide mutiny when North Carolina upped the drinking age
from 19 to 21 without a grandfather clause.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 3:00 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #438 - 7 msgs


Send TML mailing list submissions to
	tml@travellercentral.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: smells (Douglas Berry)
   2. Re: Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack") (Robert A. Uhl)
   3. Re: Re: stewards (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
   4. Re: smells (Robert A. Uhl)
   5. RE: smells (Swordy)
   6. Re: Traveller's Aide #1 (Eris Reddoch)
   7. RE: Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack") (Glenn M. Goffin)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:52:58 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] smells
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 12:07 AM 4/25/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
> > for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
> > withstanding!
>
>The way cigarette smoke clings is one of the reasons I seldom go to
>pubs these days. It's also way we used to try and get all the smokers
>assigned to other sections before an exercise (that and the fact that
>smoker's cough is not a good thing to be having in a tactical
>situation).

The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people 
having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for 
days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by 
smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.

ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:56:13 -0600
From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:20:51PM +0100, Matthew Bond wrote:
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.

--__--__--

Message: 3
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: stewards
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:26:50 +0000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)

     "Economics? If Steward-0 is six weeks F/T at Chez Ronaldo's, then
there's going to be lots of those people available. As it happens I 
subscribe to the "spaceship pilots are going to be quite common,
actually" school but the relatively specialized (spaceship) skills are still

going to have greater market value through rarity."


Mr. Hudson,

     Yes, most likely economics or the usual human "we'll muddle through" 
and "it's good enough" attitudes.  It's only a week after all, you can get 
something good to eat, or sleep in a clean room, or whatever after we reach 
our next port.

     "OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than
Pilot-3 or Engineering-3 - those latter don't clearly affect the bottom 
line, after all."

     Most definitely.  Here in the Biggest Little and in many other locales,

restaurants advertise the chefs they have on staff.  There is a constant 
struggle to lure "names" away from your competitors and hold onto those you 
have.  Naturally for ever heavy hitter, there are dozens of third assistant 
bottle washers.
     If I were GMing today (alas), I'd most certainly present the PCs with 
an NPC super-duper-steward.  That fellow would ask for more pay and be a bit

of a prima-donna to handle, but he would also fill the cabins with high 
passengers and have high skilled, low wage NPC crewmen begging the PCs to 
sign on.  Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he

needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to 
insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.

PC - "Cilantro!??!  Just where in hades are we going to find cilantro on 
Roup?  Good Sweet Strephon, Melmotte, cilantro?!"

Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop 
for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze 
baronne merde?"


     Sincerely,
     Larsen
>
>   Steven Hudson
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:01:33 -0600
From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] smells
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also
> people having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

So you make sure they're not addicts--you don't forbid them to smoke,
period.  Or you allow them other forms of nicotine: chewing tobacco,
while it has a distinctive odour, I don't think is as strong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`You know, there's a word for people who
 think that everyone is out to get them...'
`Yes! Perceptive!'           --Woody Allen

--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] smells
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:21:27 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hey, good plot device. Your team has been assigned to popularize tobacco use
among young Vargr to reduce their olfactory effectiveness should they decide
to join the other side in the brewing dissatisfaction with the current
Imperial borders.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for
> days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by
> smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.
>
> ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.



--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:14:23 -0500
From: Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hunter Gordon wrote:

>>Hunter,
>>
>>The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
>>concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
>>printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
>>that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
>>likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.
>>
>>Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
>>into a single product for your Aide line?
>>
>
>It depends on what changes would be needed for a specific on-screen
version.
>
Nothing big, I don't think.  The problem I have with the standard layout 
is that the page length is greater than the screen height at a readable 
resolution. When I go to full page mode, the resolution on my 19" 
monitor is something like 80%, and my tired old eyes can't handle that. 
<g> On smaller monitors, say a laptop, it would be even worse.  But when 
I set the resolution to a nice reading size, I only get a half to 
two-thirds of the page on the screen. Because of the two column format, 
I then have scroll up and down on every page. Scrolling up and down like 
that is a regular pain, especially when charts and tables are involved.

I can think of a couple of "easy" fixes, first if you provided a single 
column format, then it wouldn't really matter if the page length 
exceeded the screen height, as I would only have to scroll down as I 
read.  Alternatively, and a better (but most likely more difficult 
approach)  would be to reduce the page lengths by about half, then each 
page would fit on the screen in comfortable reading resolution.

Hunter, I don't know if either approach would qualify as easy, but 
consideration for something like that would be most appreciated by this 
member of your market.

Please, note I'm not suggesting you change the format for the 
printer-friendly version, that looks very nice. It's just that also 
having a screen-friendly version would be nice, too.

Eris


--__--__--

Message: 7
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
To: "Traveller-Digest" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:12:42 -0700
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
>
> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]
>
>> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they'
>> wanted to trial in  the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras
were linked
>> to a database containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to
[deletion]
>> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
>> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of
>> 10,000 bodies would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals
>> free to go about  their crimes...
>

Matthew Bond replied:
>As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
>etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
>flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
>or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
>bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
>their identity will be free to go about their business.

I think you've both misstated what it means.  The CCTV will look at all
persons in the mall.  It will misidentify 4% of them.  If 10,000 persons are
scanned, 200 non-criminals will be wrongly identified as criminals and 200
criminals will be wrongly identified as non-criminals.

Jeff's error was to apply the 4% to the population of the city; only the
population being scanned by CCTV is at issue.  (That may, of course, be the
entire population of the city.)  Matthew's error was to apply the 4% only to
the people flagged for police attention.

--Glenn



--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:14:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:14:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Who are we?
Message-ID: <20020424.130435.-189813.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

FWIW I saved all of them, 75 including Dominic's.

Turokan

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:36:26 -0400 "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> writes:
> Citizens of the TML at http://www.downport.com/traveller/TML.shtml 
> has been
> around a few years. I'm getting ready to do a periodic update if 
> anyone want
> s to add /delete / modify any or their bio info on there.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
> > --- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> > > Is anyone archiving these? ;-)
> >
> > I think I have most of them, but I haven't had tome to
> > sort through them yet.
> 
> 

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:21:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:21:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <20424.121604.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> For anyone that might know the answer:
>
> While working on my Mire landgrab, I have come up with a question that I 
> hope someone on the TML might know an answer for.  (Preferably a correct 
> one.  :-) )
>
> What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain in 
> order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?  The reason I ask is that Mire 
> is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a distance of .2 AU.  By default, the 
> next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.
>   Can that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without 
> affecting Mire's orbit?

It's not so much a matter of "how close" as the ratio of the orbital
periods. If two bodies have orbits such that one's period is a simple
multiple of the other, then you get *bad* effects. 

As an example, say there was a planet orbiting the sun at a distance
that would give it a 2 year period.

Every two years, earth would give it a "tug" towards the sun at the
same point it it's orbit. After a while, it'd be in a different orbit.

Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
of the period.

So, for my example above, a planet with twice the period of Earth:

D^2 = 2^3
D^2 = 8
D = sqrt(8)
D = 2.82 AU

For your planets, at .2 and .4 AU, if we call the period of the inner
planet 1, and the distance of the outer planet, 2 we get:

2^2 = P^3
4 = P^3
4^(1/3) = P 
1.59 = P

So the ratio of the periods is 1:1.59 and you *won't* get resonance
problems.

.2 AU is still 18.6 million miles (30 million km) so they aren't
exactly close...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:24:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:24:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <OF113CE2E0.677F0151-ON85256BA5.00569E86@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <20424.124156.7n8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
>>willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
>>out sewage.  I daresay I would.

Sometiomes it's what you are *able* to do. Right now, I could get by
with a fast food job. Trouble is, they involve standing for long
periods. Which I *cannot* do.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:27:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:27:27 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20424.123910.5K5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>>
>> >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
>> 
>> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
>> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
>> aged and infirm.  
>
> I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
> that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
> at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?

Ah, but what about one that lets you "survive"? Not comfortable, just
"tolerable". No luxuries unless you decide to do without something
else...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:44:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:44:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <20424.124156.7n8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <01a701c1ebcf$03eb6280$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Not me, please give me the garbage, sewer cleaning job, as it pays well. the
problem is that so many service industry job are being created. while it
causes unemployment to go down it also means that you have to work 2 jobs
and 60 hours a week to keep a roof over your head. me and my wife work, and
I am trying to go to school to get my degree and certification for Cisco so
I can get a better paying job so my wife can go to school and hopefully get
a better paying job, the problem is, that I am almost afraid to say I will
not be as successful as my parents , so much for the American dream
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism


> In mail you write:
>
> >>Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
> >>willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
> >>out sewage.  I daresay I would.
>
> Sometiomes it's what you are *able* to do. Right now, I could get by
> with a fast food job. Trouble is, they involve standing for long
> periods. Which I *cannot* do.
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:49:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:49:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20424.123910.5K5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020424163654.00b94210@urbin.net>

At 12:39 PM 4/24/02 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> > >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> >> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled
> >> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The
> >> aged and infirm.
> > I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> > able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
> > that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
> > at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> > another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?
>Ah, but what about one that lets you "survive"? Not comfortable, just
>"tolerable". No luxuries unless you decide to do without something
>else...

$20,000 a year won't even get you "tolerable" in NYC.

In Mobile, Alabama, it's on the plus side of "reasonably"

Where you're at has a lot to do with it.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424135724.009f6460@mindspring.com>

At 03:56 PM 4/24/02 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> >The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people
>
> >having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.
>
>Great. Give people one more reason not to reenlist. When I was in the
>Marines the smoking rate was easily over 50%, at least among grunts. This
>was back in the 80s, of course, so I imagine this has gone down some.
>As far as people having nic fits not being useful in combat, I wonder how
>the millions of smoking combat veterans of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam would
>feel about that.

Well, we learned that in Vietnam at least the VC often located US OPs by 
the smell of cigarette smoke.  Having addicts in the trenches does not aid 
in the mission.

>We almost had a base-wide mutiny when North Carolina upped the drinking age
>from 19 to 21 without a grandfather clause.

I was at Benning when that happened. The common reaction was "who cares" 
and the clubs on VD Drive never bothered to check IDs.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>
References: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com> <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com> <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020425073936.A11272@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Hmm. Makes NZ's situation look even worse than it is. Our
> superannuation system was supposed to be a form of government
> subsidised savings,

That was what Australia's old-age pension used to be.  Although the
funds weren't lost, by the time the contributors reached retirement
age, the government had introduced assets and independent income tests
to prevent many of the original people from accessing their "savings",
and the original income taxes that funded the scheme had long since
been legislatively disconnected from the pension.

Now we've got compulsory superannuation.  Oh yes, it looks very
attractive at first -- heavy tax breaks, the government will match any
voluntary contributions up to a certain percentage of your income --
but I doubt I'll be allowed to touch it by the time I'm 55, ... no, 60
..., no, 65.  If there's anything left of it after slowly increasing
tax rates, that is.

Oops!  Not much relation to Traveller here.  Sorry!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC74404.23217.6E3D9E@localhost>
References: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700 <3CC74404.23217.6E3D9E@localhost>
Message-ID: <3cc920e4.11435731@post.demon.co.uk>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:

>If the wealthy want those they pass on the street to not offend their=20
>noses, why shouldn't they contribute towards the lower orders hygene?

Agreed - although I was more concerned about typhoid and cholera...
(and probably new, improved antibiotic-resistant cholera, too). =20

It's all about enlightened self-interest:  it's to my personal benefit
that everybody in my community has access to decent sanitation, even
the poorest.  I'm willing to pay for that through higher taxes.
(though I'd draw the line at filling swimming pools or watering
20-acre lawns;  you shouldn't get subsidies for that...<g>).

=46or the same reason I support giving subsidies to public transport,
even by people who never use it - because they still benefit from
clearer roads, more parking spaces and less pollution.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8ecd76ee706@[143.232.119.186]>

At 11:53 PM -0700 4/23/02, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote
>
>>  What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a
>>  fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who think
>>  they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to complain
>>  that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and agitate
>>  for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact that lead
>>  to such a system in the first place, since the rationale that supports
>>  it can be easily used to support increases, and whether society wants
>>  to try and "buy" them off).
>
>I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and
>that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.

So those of us who work are expected to make sure every gets money 
regardless of what they do?  I think that is both morally wrong (what 
right do other peole have on the fruit of my efforts) and unworkable 
(such system have always become burdened by those who abuse them).

>
>>  There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family (?).
>>   It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those who
>>  went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this is
>>  the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of
>>  "non-working" class in Europe....
>
>Given how rapidly automation is advancing (much modern office
>work will be obsolete in under 20 years), we are almost certainly
>going to have a combination of increasing GNPs *and* an
>increasing number of people out of work in the entire First World. 
>Why should they not share in the bounty of an economy that no
>longer has need for (and in fact, likely cannot deal with) for
>everyone to be employed.

If you want to have a system for those who can't find work that is 
one thing.  But that is a far cry from guaranteed income.

And this whole "technology will create a class of people with nothing 
to do" is nothing more than a recycling of the Ludditism of the 
Industrial Revolution.  The money saved by automation creates demand 
for more products and services by those with the money which creates 
jobs.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:52:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:52:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <20424.121604.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com> <20424.121604.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020425074906.B11272@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
> of the period.

Oops, it's the other way around :)

(2 pi / T)^2 = G M / R^3
so T^2 = k R^3, where k = (2 pi)^2 / (G M)


> .2 AU is still 18.6 million miles (30 million km) so they aren't
> exactly close...

Indeed.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC74249.9558.677A81@localhost>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <3CC74249.9558.677A81@localhost>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8ecd9104997@[143.232.119.186]>

At 11:39 PM +1200 4/24/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 23 Apr 2002 at 17:26, David P. Summers wrote:
>
>>  A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more people living on
>>  public assistance.  (It may not be 50%, but it will depend on what
>>  the level is set at).
>
>Curiously even though this is effectively the case in this country
>unemployment and beneficiary numbers are more dependant on other
>factors than on how much money is paid out to 'dole bludgers' and I
>very much doubt that this would change unless quite a lot more money
>was paid to them.

I don't know if New Zeland is a small, relatively isolated, country 
that is an exception (though I must say I have my doubts) but from 
the Roman Empire, to the Soviet Union, to European welfare states we 
have seen enough to that if they don't have to work, a significant 
fraction of society will go for the free ride.

>
>>  What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a
>>  fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who
>>  think they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to
>>  complain that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and
>>  agitate for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact
>>  that lead to such a system in the first place, since the rationale
>>  that supports it can be easily used to support increases, and whether
>>  society wants to try and "buy" them off).
>>
>>  There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family
>>  (?).  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those
>>  who went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this
>>  is the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of
>>  "non-working" class in Europe....
>
>Until the economy is in a state where the demand for labour is such
>that industries are short of it and people are still refusing to work
>it really doesn't matter if some (or most) of the people not working
>aren't because they can't be bothered.

Of course when jobs come along, why should they be bothered then?  A 
lot of the issue was the _contempt_ for the idea that one should be 
expected to work for a living....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 16:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed Apr 24 15:01:03 2002
Subject: Beer (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <20020424123206.EE8A027A4A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008b01c1ebdb$e8dac0a0$e65d8690@computer>

> From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> As a New Zealander I just had to make that dig. Can't have the Aussies
> thinking they brew better beer than we.

Actually, the best beer in the world is brewed in Australia:  Guinness. : )

Most British and Irish beers brewed in Australia have higher alcohol
contents than the original versions, to allow them to compete in the market
here.

I actually prefer Kilkenny to Guinness.  I drink different beers in
different pubs.  In one, I tend to drink Boddington's.  In others, I drink
good old XXXX (brewed in Brisbane), with VB (from Melbourne) an "if all else
fails" option.  The last two are basically cat urine, but drinkable in
sufficient quantities.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 16:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 24 15:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Question on planetary orbits
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424234029.00ab4ef0@mail.pi.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

 >It's not so much a matter of "how close" as the ratio of the orbital
 >periods. If two bodies have orbits such that one's period is a simple
 >multiple of the other, then you get *bad* effects.

Not necessarily. Gliese 876's two known planets are in a 2:1 resonance, 
both are massive and on short period orbits. I think HD82943 is another 
example. Jupiter's inner three moons are in a 2:1 resonance series, a 
Laplace resonance. Resonance can provide stability to a planetary or lunar 
system, and it may be a not uncommon feature to have planets captured into 
2:1 and 3:1 resonances, based upon simulations of orbital migration.

 >Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
 >of the period.

Keplers third law is that the square of the period is proportional to the 
cube of the distance.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 16:37:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 24 15:37:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020424.145416.-149337.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:38:27 -0400 Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> At 12:39 PM 4/24/02 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >In mail you write:
> > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> > > >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> > >> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled
> > >> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The
> > >> aged and infirm.
> > > I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> > > able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  
> Except
> > > that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me 
> live
> > > at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> > > another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am 
> lazy?
> >Ah, but what about one that lets you "survive"? Not comfortable, 
> just
> >"tolerable". No luxuries unless you decide to do without something
> >else...
> 
> $20,000 a year won't even get you "tolerable" in NYC.
> 
> In Mobile, Alabama, it's on the plus side of "reasonably"
> 
> Where you're at has a lot to do with it.
> 

Well, I hate to butt in here, but I'm a prime example of the above
conversation.

I'm disabled as you all know, pulling in roughly $17.5k via S.S. and my
disability pension. My wife doesn't work, and must take care of me. We
were basically kicked out of the SF Bay area, and now live in an
"afordable" housing apartment in Stockton with our 21 year old son who
works part time, and helped us qualify for our rent.  Tolerable is barely
the word for it. After our 25th wedding aniversary next month, we may
divorce just so that my wife can receive SSI. If we do, then our life
here might be considered tolerable.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
Message-ID: <147.d7848aa.29f899cd@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/24/2002 2:04:39 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:

>Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for 
>days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by 
>smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.

That's why I never understood those commercials for [various products] to 
remove tobacco stains from the teeth. They usually take the following form:

"A: Have you quit smoking?
B: Uh . . . what do you think?
A: Your teeth are so white . . . "

I never understood this because in my experience just being in the same room 
with a smoker can make one's clothes _reek_ of tobacco for days. I could 
always tell when my brother gave up trying to quit, and when my nephew took 
up pot on a regular basis.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <147.d7848aa.29f899cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>

Try being allergic to cig smoke.
It makes being out in public very unhappy, especially when I don't sneeze,
but develope the all over body itch. VERY nasty.

Then again I do a lot of hiking and I know that folks in the field develop a
special smell that they don't notice till they clean up. At least we act
like we don't notice ;)

TV

--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <20020424095613.D12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250924020.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Robert:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

 The incorrect response is "Sorry Man I've only got a pipe."

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:59:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:59:36 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <20020424110133.E12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250925440.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Robert:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> >
> > The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also
> > people having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.
>
> So you make sure they're not addicts--you don't forbid them to smoke,
> period.  Or you allow them other forms of nicotine: chewing tobacco,
> while it has a distinctive odour, I don't think is as strong.

 Yes in the field we did only eat native food. As the VC could smell us
miles away. All the nice products that the service present to us have
distinctive smells. From shaving materials to the gun oil. Making us
olafactory targets.

 As for smoking, this is a touchy subject. i happen to be pro smoking. But
if it is a way soon to beat the draft. Well I know a lot of people that
will take it up. A mess more that would have used it back in 68. <G>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:06:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:06:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
> Matthew Bond replied:
> >As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> >etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> >flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> >or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> >bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> >their identity will be free to go about their business.
>
> I think you've both misstated what it means.  The CCTV will look at all
> persons in the mall.  It will misidentify 4% of them.  If 10,000 persons
are
> scanned, 200 non-criminals will be wrongly identified as criminals and 200
> criminals will be wrongly identified as non-criminals.
>
> Jeff's error was to apply the 4% to the population of the city; only the
> population being scanned by CCTV is at issue.  (That may, of course, be
the
> entire population of the city.)  Matthew's error was to apply the 4% only
to
> the people flagged for police attention.
>
> --Glenn

Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in
the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database? It
is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken as one in 25
of the members of the database will be misidentified... If there was only
one picture in the database is there a 4% chance that any given person will
be identified as it? Or much more likely, if there was only one person in
the database 4% of the time the system would report 'no match' when
analysing a picture of that individual.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250925440.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link writes:

>  As for smoking, this is a touchy subject. i happen to be pro smoking. But
> if it is a way soon to beat the draft. Well I know a lot of people that
> will take it up. A mess more that would have used it back in 68. <G>

Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine they'd
just draft you anyway and force you to quit.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHMEALCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Shawn:

Comments below quoted.

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Shawn R Sears wrote:

> The only real PC floppy drive compatibility issues relate to the 5-1/4 in
> floppies when using the same media between 360KB and 1.2MB drives. Although
> a 1.2MB drive can write both 360KB and 1.2MB disks, a serious problem may
> occur if the 1.2MB drive erases or writes to a disk previously formatted
> with a 360KB drive and the data is then attempted to be read from a 360KB
> drive. This will cause random data read errors due to the fact that the
> 1.2MB drive head is narrower than the 360KB drive head. Thus when the 360KB
> drive reads the 1.2MB drive data from the disk, it inadvertently GLEANS the
> previous data written by the original 360KB drive.

 All of the above is interesting. But not my main Traveller theme part.
For example <composing a reply to a prior msg with this topic> The entire
premise above is dealing with the measurements of the micro$haft style of
disks and formatting. i use Commodore exclusively. First we measure in
blocks 4 = 1kb. The single sided drives read thes disk at 664 C= blocks.
This is the 1541 disk drive. If I can do the math right that is 166kb Then
the 1571 dreive is a double head reader. Now the Comodore built 3 1/2"
drive did the double sided double density disks and formatted at 800kb
free. 790kb free if formatted in the Geos/Wheels OS environment. CMD's
FD-2000 does the DD/DS 3 1/2" disks but also the high density disks and
formats them at 1.6MB. Commodore never made a high density 5 1/4" drive.
Any one want a collection of the HD 5 1/4" disks? Got a mess of them some
factory. Make great targets. <G>

 Anyway what my Traveller computer premise is about is not only different
eras of computers of the same platform. But different standards amongst
the history of the Imperium and the subjective worlds. From multiple
companies in the Imperium. All the ay to the different tech level worlds
that have some sort of Imperial contact.

 Now then all tat said. We have talked about some converting things. using
what I know which is a samttering of the techy stuff for the Commodore
world. i have tools that allow translation on my system. Allowing me to
translate from Pet to Ascii and back again. So that part is covered for
text. I also have tools that allow scaling of JPGs and GIFs. These at
videocam. That allow for my screen size. I have tools to pas along to the
windoze and Amiga users that allow the text translation for my preferred
DT <Desk Top> system Geos. Even the ability to make .D64 image files for
the emulator users.

 OK what I am looking at on this topic is the same type of things in tols
and utils for converting different standards and platforms in the 3I.
Based and projecting from the exisitng styles we have now. Putting that
into the CT game.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250956500.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Anthony:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine they'd
> just draft you anyway and force you to quit.

 i don't know about the draft. The last I heard it takes a fast vote in
congress to reinstate it. On this I am not certain. I personally am way to
old to be drafted. But they can recall me if needed. ALmost happened in
Desert Storm. But smokers that fight the quit part would most likely be
discharged under the unfit for military service clauses. Which I
understand there are many classifications for that now. But I have been
out of the military since 71. Oh FWIW I don't smoke cigs, being a pipe
smoker for 40+ years. Nope don'T want to quit and my O2 rate last year was
99% at my physical. <G>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250956500.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019696542.4978.ajackson@ping>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link writes:
> Hoi Anthony:
> 
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> > Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine
> > they'd just draft you anyway and force you to quit.
> 
>  i don't know about the draft. The last I heard it takes a fast vote in
> congress to reinstate it.
Sure, congress is theoretically able to reinstate the draft.  They're just
vanishingly unlikely to want to.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 19:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 18:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425073936.A11272@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC800BE.5191.7D9315@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 7:39, Timothy Little wrote:

> That was what Australia's old-age pension used to be.  Although the
> funds weren't lost, by the time the contributors reached retirement
> age, the government had introduced assets and independent income tests
> to prevent many of the original people from accessing their "savings",
> and the original income taxes that funded the scheme had long since
> been legislatively disconnected from the pension.

Sounds like the same old story.
 
> Now we've got compulsory superannuation.  Oh yes, it looks very
> attractive at first -- heavy tax breaks, the government will match any
> voluntary contributions up to a certain percentage of your income --
> but I doubt I'll be allowed to touch it by the time I'm 55, ... no, 60
> ..., no, 65.  If there's anything left of it after slowly increasing
> tax rates, that is.

I think that's where we're headed. The previous government had this 
system where you could set up your fund with a commercial provider, and 
therefore it should be safe from the government. Of course you're then 
relying on the provider being around when you retire, and the terms and 
conditions not being quietly changed. And of course you're also having 
to pay for the profits of the provider out of your interest.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 19:15:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 18:15:58 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>
References: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400
Message-ID: <3CC800BD.22553.7D928D@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 9:54, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >
> > >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> > 
> > Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
> > (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
> > aged and infirm.  
> 
> I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
> that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
> at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?

As long as there are more people willing to work then there are slots 
available, why not? By not working you're accepting a lower income in 
order to make the slot you'd have taken open for another who wants it 
more than you. This works until there's a labour shortage and people 
are still not working, at which point continuing to pay non-workers 
will be a disaster.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <200204250229.g3P2T6G09549@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: stewards
...
>"OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than Pilot-3
...
>     If I were GMing today (alas), I'd most certainly present the PCs with 
>an NPC super-duper-steward.  That fellow would ask for more pay and be a bit 
>of a prima-donna to handle, but he would also fill the cabins with high 
>passengers and have high skilled, low wage NPC crewmen begging the PCs to 
>sign on.  Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he 
>needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to 
>insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.

  Why an NPC? It seems like a great excuse for not being
too useful in the firefights that the D&D'ers keep trying 
to provoke. It might even be combined with some social
skills or a problem-solving approach :)

  But if an NPC, then the occasional review of "Fawlty
Towers" should be considered!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 20:32:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 19:32:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person
> in 25 in the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of
> the database?

That's far better than the failure rate of many previous systems.


> It is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken
> as one in 25 of the members of the database will be misidentified.

If you'd ever done any image-recognition work, you'd know that a 4%
false-positive rate is extraordinarily good for "in the field" runs,
at an acceptable false-negative rate.

What you seem to be saying is that the system has a 4% false-negative
rate and a false-positive rate somewhere less than 0.1%.

If that's really what they meant, either the system designers are the
best geniuses this side of Andromeda, or they're snake-oil salesmen.
I'm betting on the latter, if they're really claiming what you say.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 21:35:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed Apr 24 20:35:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1ec0a$1bc04ca0$0b01a8c0@duck>

Thank you all for the answers.  Just a little more explanation:

While working on my Mire landgrab, I ran its configuration through Heaven
and Earth.  When I did that, I got a really interesting system, which
included three planets (in addition to Mire) with a type "6" atmosphere and
a > 1 hydrosphere.  Too bad the star is a measley K6 V!  (Actually it was
two planets and one moon, and the moon orbits one of these planets.)

Anyway, I really wanted to make the second planet (the one without the moon)
habitable (i.e. really cold, not frozen solid like I got in the first
place).  So I had to start fudging numbers.  Actually, I doubt that it would
still be warm enough where I put it, but I figure it should be close enough.
:-)

BTW, that is the one main frustration I had with H&E:  it forces the orbit
distances.  So, orbit 0 is *always* .2 AU, orbit 1 is *always* .4 AU.  This
means that for the smaller suns that nice warm planet from canon discription
is really frozen solid.  (Either that or the planet ends up being too close
and is an inferno with a "base" climate temperature of 45+ C.)  The program
has no way to tweak the orbital distance.  The only way I could simulate
that was to vary the size of the star until I got close to the temperatures
I needed.

In case anyone is actually curious as to what I have so far, the description
is at http://www.caddocourt.com/traveller/mire/ .  (If you go one level
higher to http://www.caddocourt.com/traveller you can see my Daryen page and
my other landgrab attempts.)  It is still very much a work in progress, but
it is starting to take shape.

Again, thanks for the help.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:06:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:06:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
References: <F2090Q5B71GmFs40SIq0000224a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC77F60.88D8F9C8@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
>
>    <snip> Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he
> needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to
> insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.
>
> PC - "Cilantro!??!  Just where in hades are we going to find cilantro on
> Roup?  Good Sweet Strephon, Melmotte, cilantro?!"
>
> Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop
> for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze
> baronne merde?"
>
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen

I've done this with a Vargar steward on my groups ship. Keeping her in fresh
meat is a real challenge at points. Especially since she insists on sharing it
all with the passengers and crew. Hadn't really thought of the ingredient angle.
Thanks Larsen.



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Sorry doesn't put thumbs on the hands, Marge.
                          -Homer Simpson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:09:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:09:59 2002
Subject: Beer (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <20020424123206.EE8A027A4A@mail.travellercentral.com> <008b01c1ebdb$e8dac0a0$e65d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CC77FE1.1580CF1F@premier.net>


Alan Bradley wrote:
> 
> > From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> > As a New Zealander I just had to make that dig. Can't have the Aussies
> > thinking they brew better beer than we.
> 
> Actually, the best beer in the world is brewed in Australia:  Guinness. : )
> 
> Most British and Irish beers brewed in Australia have higher alcohol
> contents than the original versions, to allow them to compete in the market
> here.

Ah, then 307 Ale would find a ready market in Australia:

http://www.tomsmithonline.com/lyrics/307ale.htm

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:25:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:25:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>

< snip debate on system accuracy >

More grist for the mill at:

http://www.visionics.com/faceit/faqs/recog.html

Keep in mind this is info from the company that sells the technology.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:30:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:30:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
In-Reply-To: <3CC77F60.88D8F9C8@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8ECD20F.58816%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/24/02 9:00 PM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

>> Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop
>> for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze
>> baronne merde?"
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> Larsen
> 
> I've done this with a Vargar steward on my groups ship. Keeping her in fresh
> meat is a real challenge at points. Especially since she insists on sharing it
> all with the passengers and crew. Hadn't really thought of the ingredient
> angle.
> Thanks Larsen.

I once ran an Aftermath campaign where the players were kept busy looking
for ingredients for an omelet by a deranged gourmand in return for some
penicillin.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:38:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:38:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <3CC73DFE.1550.56B779@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC785BE.E6ACFF88@premier.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> On 23 Apr 2002 at 13:04, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> > The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST
> > series is that everyone is an officer.
> 
> That didn't bother me in the slightest, seeing as there were often
> engineering officers doing what we'd have ratings employed at.
> Obviously the later Star Trek period saw a lot of 'job inflation' in
> the Federation. Probably some bureaucrat thought it'd help morale or
> recruitment if everyone in Starfleet got to be an officer.

I suspect that the rank inflation of the ST universe (and many other
fictional universes) has more to do with the observation that Robert
Heinlein (adroitly bringing the thread back to its title) made in _Job:
A Comedy of Justice_ that civilians automatically seem to equate
themselves with officers, regardless of the actual position the
civilians in question hold in the employment and/or social hierarchy.

One of the things that annoyed me most about Twilight: 2000 (second
edition) is that, according to the chargen rules, I did not exist. 
According to T2K (2e), only Military Intelligence officers could perform
interrogator duties; enlisted MI types were treated as equivalent to
Support branch (i.e., mechanics and the like).  As an enlisted
interrogator (MOS 97E4P) who currently has 18+ years of experience in
the field, I was (understandably, I think) quite put out by this chargen
rule, especially since very few MI commissioned officers in the US Army
_ever_ learn how to interrogate prisoners of war.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:46:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:46:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500
References: <147.d7848aa.29f899cd@aol.com> <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20020424223740.A14385@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
>
> Try being allergic to cig smoke.

That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
<http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.

Perhaps you're slightly asthmatic, or have other allergies which smoke
in generl triggers?


-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I have a love for coding.  I have a love for staying up for days at a
time living off of Tea and Cigarettes, doing nothing but wearing the
letters off of the keys in front of my computer.  My bills have a love
for being paid on time.                                 --Jace of Fuse!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:55:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:55:28 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:07:21PM -0700
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250925440.30393-100000@vcsweb.com> <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020424224232.B14385@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:07:21PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine they'd
> just draft you anyway and force you to quit.

I'd claim smoking is part of my philosophy (i.e. religion).
C.S. Lewis smoked, J.R.R. Tolkien smoked, G.K. Chesterton smoked, and
frankly I care more about the dust which clung to their heals than all
the words and thoughts of the Koops and Kesslers of this world.

Not that this has anything to do with military service.  Not being an
addict, I have gone for quite extended periods of time without
tobacco, when the sitution warranted.  No doubt I'll do so again.  So
I could quite cheerfully go into the bush for awhile, come out,
shower, shave, light a nice pipe and relax.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd' - Ian Lamb, age 3.5

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 23:03:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Wed Apr 24 22:03:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
Message-ID: <3CC74587.16615.16FC24A@localhost>

--Message-Boundary-12821
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body

heres the second in my series of conversions


--Message-Boundary-12821
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-disposition: inline
Content-description: Attachment information.

The following section of this message contains a file attachment
prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system,
you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

   ---- File information -----------
     File:  TL12 200,000-ton Kokirrak-class Dreadnought.htm
     Date:  24 Apr 2002, 23:52
     Size:  6613 bytes.
     Type:  HTML-text

--Message-Boundary-12821
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--Message-Boundary-12821--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 23:18:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 22:18:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> http://www.visionics.com/faceit/faqs/recog.html
> 
> Keep in mind this is info from the company that sells the technology.

Yep.  It's actually worse than I thought.  On internal comparison
tests on a standardised database, its best error sum is above 1%.  A
reasonable rule of thumb in image recognition, is that in typical
deployed conditions error rates (of both types) go up by at least an
order of magnitude over standardised test data.  That's assuming
no-one is actually trying to fool the system!

That means that if you want 90% detection of known criminals or
troublemakers, you'll have to put up with misidentifying *at least* 5%
of the general public as people in the database.  A rather small
shopping mall would have say 10000 people passing through in a day,
that's about 500 false alarms.

Worse still, the 'tails' of feature set detection lengthen in
realistically noisy data, which means that reducing the threshold has
less effect on error rates in real conditions than in standardized
data.  So while reducing the threshold by 5% may halve the
false-positive rate in test data, it may only reduce false-positives
by 30% in real data.  So you get double-hit by real noise: Not only do
your error rates go up, but your ability to reduce errors by reducing
the threshold for detection goes down.

Ignoring the likelihood that people are going to deliberately spoof
the system, let's say you want a false-positive rate of less than 1%
(100 innocent members of the public bothered per shopping mall per
day).  Judging by their own graphs, I'd be very surprised to see 50%
effectiveness at detecting known troublemakers in real conditions.

Including the fact that some of the people in the database *will* try
to avoid detection, I'd put the hit rate at more like 20%.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 23:36:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 24 22:36:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com> <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>

> Judging by their own graphs, I'd be very surprised to see 50%
> effectiveness at detecting known troublemakers in real conditions.
>
> Including the fact that some of the people in the database *will* try
> to avoid detection, I'd put the hit rate at more like 20%.
>

Given the current state of the art, how long do you think it will be before
the performance of this system is able to live up to the hype?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 00:10:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 24 23:10:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> >The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people
> >having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.
> Great. Give people one more reason not to reenlist. When I was in the
> Marines the smoking rate was easily over 50%, at least among grunts. This

Well, I wouldn't want to be in the field with smokers. It has no good
points, and many bad.

Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even farther with image
intensifiers. Also, you might want not to leave much stuff around, which
is quite hard if you have to remember collecting everything you smoke.

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 00:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Wed Apr 24 23:14:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <3CC6F5FF.5070407@telocity.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
 <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>
 <200204240037330379.D4645864@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3CC6F5FF.5070407@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <200204250108350264.D9A71D60@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/24/2002 at 1:14 PM Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>I can think of a couple of "easy" fixes, first if you provided a single 
>column format, then it wouldn't really matter if the page length 
>exceeded the screen height, as I would only have to scroll down as I 
>read.  Alternatively, and a better (but most likely more difficult 
>approach)  would be to reduce the page lengths by about half, then each 
>page would fit on the screen in comfortable reading resolution.
>
>Hunter, I don't know if either approach would qualify as easy, but 
>consideration for something like that would be most appreciated by this 
>member of your market.

Hmm. Its something I will definately look into. The main problem I see=
 though is we would have to layout the PDF twice for each edition. once for=
 a 'print' version and once for an 'on-screen' version. I'll have to talk=
 to Steve and see what he thinks it might add time-wise on his part to=
 handle it.

It would also be an interesting question to pose to those who buy the PDFs,=
 to see if there is a larger preference one way or another.

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 00:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 23:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com> <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020425163025.A12453@freeman.little-possums.net>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> Given the current state of the art, how long do you think it will be
> before the performance of this system is able to live up to the
> hype?

Same answer that I'd give to any other prediction about near future
technology; fusion power, paperless office, a machine able to
understand natural spoken language, house-cleaning robots, generally
available space tourism, and widespread acceptance of video phones and
electric cars: "20 years" :)

(Of course, most of these were "20 years" away in the 1960s...)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 01:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 00:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020420102803.C4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020420102803.C4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020425175119.A12598@freeman.little-possums.net>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Let 't' be the number of orbits (or fractional orbits).  Then
>   theta = 2 arctan ((1+e) tan(pi t) / sqrt(1-e^2)).  (I hope)

It looks like my hopes were dashed.  That's what I get for doing
orbital dynamics on an empty stomach!  The (hopefully *this* time)
correct formula is

pi t = arctan (sqrt(1-e^2) tan (theta/2) / (1+e))
       - (e sqrt(1-e^2) sin theta) / 2(1 + e cos theta) 

(If you forget the second line like I did, you get my incorrect
formula above).  Unfortunately this expression can't be simply solved
for theta like the previous one.  You can easily find the time for a
given position, but that's not very useful :)  You'll need to use a
numerical method to find the position at a given time.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020423183217.00ac19d8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEFBHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Jimmy Simpson wrote :

> IMHO, there was precisely 1 good episode of Galactica 
> 1980, "The Return of Starbuck".

Was that about a newly-reopened coffe franchise ?

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:47:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:47:57 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8eb83b1f99b@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAAEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :
> A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more
> people living on public assistance.  (It may not
> be 50%, but it will depend on what the level is set at).

I think the 200AD "Judge Dredd" series shows what such a society
would turn into.

(200AD has always been very good SF IMO, even if some of the
stories and characters were relatively puerile, it does explore
the issues, both social and technological like SF is supposed
to ).

Not only would people not work, but because of the lack of
workers, more and more things would have to be automated,
companies would find it harder to make a profit, and as part of
the circle, the number of available jobs would actually reduce to
the point where having more than one would become illegal.

> What is more, in approached like this the money is
> considered a fundamental "right".  This creates an
> entire class of people who think they have a right
> to expect to be supported.

This has happened in many "western" countries including New
Zealand, England, and Holland to name the ones that I'm
personally familiar with.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:50:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:50:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RPGs
In-Reply-To: <95.1b594c7e.29f6ba34@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :
> tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> > GDW, Chaosium, WRG, TSR, Flying Buffalo, Steve Jackson,
> > Steve Curtis, and many other primarily wargaming
> > companies were all in the process of adding fantasy
> > wargaming and roleplaying systems of various forms
> > to their wargames, largely due to the popularity
> > of "Lord of the Rings" at the time. These were based
> > originally on personalization details for their army
> > "generals" and "special figures", and also on the trend
> > toward small scale "skirmish" wargames where the individual
> > figures were heavily personalized and even given "character",
> > of which "Chainmail" was just one, and not the most
> > influential either.
>
> You've obviously done considerable research if you
> know of Steve Curtis -- few people do nowadays.

It's not research, just memory. I was heavily involved in
wargaming at the time.
I still have a lot of boardganes and few thousand lead figures in
various scales.

I have a letter from Steve's dad telling me of his unfortunate
death somewhere.
I had ordered another copy of his Old West Skirmish rules, as my
original had become pretty heavily worn (they were only
gestetners or photocopies of the typed manuscripts at the the
time, no fancy printing like you get these days <grin>), along
with a new pair of d20's, and his dad filled the order and gave
me the news.

> >While I'm not going to deny D&D's importance, it was not, IMO,
> >neccessary for the development of roleplaying.
>
> I'm not as certain of that as you are . . . let us
> agree to disagree.

Certainy. I was, after all, merely expressing my opinion.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:53:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:53:58 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC74249.2877.6779B3@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are
> by officers in the Captain to Colonel range, with
> the next group being those run by Generals, though
> these are quite often one General  replacing another
> and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have
> to do more reading, methinks.

You will, a coup in one of the West Inddian isles (Grenada?) was
led by a Corporal, IIRC

And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424.145416.-149337.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> Well, I hate to butt in here, but I'm a prime
> example of the above conversation.
>
> I'm disabled as you all know, pulling in roughly
> $17.5k via S.S. and my disability pension.

Just to show that "tolerable" is definitely relative:

What you are are earning on your benefits, is, when translated to
New Zealand dollars, almost _twice_ both the average wage, and
twice what a family of _six_ would be expected to live on in New
Zealand on the unemployment benefit.

It is more than what a non-senior teacher would earn and about
what a policeman would earn here after a year or so on the job.
It is approximately 1.25 times what I earned as an NCO avionics
technician in the Air Force

However, outside of a few high cost areas lke New York city and
the Silcon Valley environs, the cost of living in New Zealand is
not appreciably lower than that in the US (at least according to
my sister who has recently returned from  the US), so what (you
seem to be implying) constitutes hardship for you, would be
considered moderately well to do in New Zealand.

Of course, I'm sure someone from Russia could point out they
could live like a king on 17.5K USD p.a.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 03:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr 25 02:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8A@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Pitt [mailto:frankie@mundens.gen.nz]
> Sent: 25 April 2002 09:57
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] RE: Bayonets
> 
> 
> Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> > Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are
> > by officers in the Captain to Colonel range, with
> > the next group being those run by Generals, though
> > these are quite often one General  replacing another
> > and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have
> > to do more reading, methinks.
> 
> You will, a coup in one of the West Inddian isles (Grenada?) was
> led by a Corporal, IIRC
> 
> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.
> 
> Frankie

And IIRC Idi Amin was a Sergeant

Matt 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:12:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <200204241458.EXD05545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20425.005842.9d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn says
> <snip about the "smart" camera system>
>
> The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
> the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
> Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
> to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
> serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
> incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
> be.
>
> Factor in the following:
>
> a.  Criminal warrant issued, but no picture
> b.  Criminal warrant issued, but not entered into database in 
> a timely manner
> c.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
> found not guilty, data not updated
> d.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
> does his time, is released, and data not updated

e. Criminal warrant issued, data entry goof and innocent person's data
attached.

This happens with depressing regularity with systems that are used by
local police and sheriffs departments to put out wants & warrants info
nationwide. 

Several incidents were reported in comp.risks over the years. One of
the problems is that far to many of the systems that local deparetments
feed the data from *other* departments into have no provisions for
receiving *corrections*.

At least one person had to get a signed, notarized letter from the
department that had issued the original erroneus report and carry it
with him when travelling as otherwise any time he got stopped for
*anything*, he'd wind up in the local jail waiting for their attempts
to arrange for him to be picked up and transferred to come back with a
"Huh? We don't want that guy..."

The letter merely changes things so that he can get the department
that's picked him up to actually make a direct *call* to the original
department, and it has enough info that even if the get a new clerk on
the other end, he only loses an hour or two instead of a day or two.

And in spite of the hassles, it's just plain *not* worth trying to sue,
because he'd have to travel *back* to East Podunk (or whereever they
picked him up) for the trial...

> I bet the actual error rate is over 50 percent.  Just go on 
> the web and look at the state of Maryland's sex offender 
> registry.  They state up front that they can't keep it up to 
> date.  They don't really know where these people live.  I 
> spoke to someone in that department, and they said that the 
> only way to find out accurate information about a particular 
> individual is to call and ask for an actual check - they go 
> out and find the individual in question.

Yeah. It's no better with the "private" databases the departments
assemble from the stuff they get off the "wire". 

> The culture and infrastructure for systems like these to be 
> near 100 percent accurate do not exist.

Well, some day, an "important" person will get hit *badly* by one, and
maybe get Congress to pass a law that will attempt to require more
checking of data.

OBTrav should be obvious. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:15:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:15:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B88@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <20425.012317.8s4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>  And
>> who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
>> crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or 
>> just those
>> detained by the police at some previous time?  What about 
>> those who have
>> already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going 
>> to be harassed
>> by the police.
>
> I would expect that the idea was to only inclued persistent
> shoplifters/vandals/muggers/car thieves etc
> And it is hardly and great difficulty to flag each record with an expiry
> date.

No, but in the real world, such databases *aren't* designed with any
such flag. Which bites many innocent people every year.

> So upon a criminal coming before the courts for the umpteenth time for
> such offences the court can order that their 'mugshot' be placed on the
> system for a specified length of time. If they stop offending then after
> that time they are removed from the database.

And if the wrong photo gets placed in the file, the innocent person
will have a fight to get it removed. If the database is shared with
*other* areas, they will have to fight in each and every place they
visit. 

And a private citizen can't *afford* that sort of fight. Which is why
such systems are a bad idea. When they screw up, the effects on the
innocent are *way* out of proportion.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:18:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:18:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <20425.011146.9J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]
>
>> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they' 
>> wanted to trial in 
>> the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras were linked 
>> to a database 
>> containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to 
>> alert the local 
>> police when a 'non-desirable' tried entering the city center 
>> (note; in 
>> England, shopping centers/malls can exclude people for 
>> illegal behviour, so 
>> this is not considered a violation of their rights).
>> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
>> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of 
>> 10,000 bodies 
>> would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals 
>> free to go about 
>> their crimes...
>
> Ummm, not quite...
>
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

No. 

The 4% error rate means that 4% of the people scanned will be
misidentied. So 4% of the people who don't have pictures in the
database would be mistakenly identifed as people in the database AND 4%
of the people scanned who *were* in the database would fail to be
identified.

Thing is, if there are only 100 people in the database, and 10,000
people scanned (and we will assume that the 100 in the database are
part of the total scanned) you get these results:

9,900 people not in database. 
4% false positives = 396

100 people in database
4% false negatives = 4

So, the end results are:

9504 correctly identified as not in database
 396 incorrectly identified as being in database
  96 correctly identified as being in database
   4 incorrectly identified as being in database.

Which means that out of 492 people "tagged", only 96 will be correct
IDs. That means that a bit over *80%* of those tagged will be incorrect
identifications. Which is a *totally* unacceptable error rate.

This is why they *don't* do generalized testing for things like AIDS.
The ratio of infected to uninfected is so *low* that the number of
false positives would *massively* overwhelm the true positives.

And the problem others were talking about is the entirely *independent*
problem of whether or not the folks correctly IDed as being in the
database are actually criminals. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC785BE.E6ACFF88@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CC884F5.17674.53C3CD@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 23:27, John Groth wrote:

> One of the things that annoyed me most about Twilight: 2000 (second
> edition) is that, according to the chargen rules, I did not exist. 
> According to T2K (2e), only Military Intelligence officers could perform
> interrogator duties; enlisted MI types were treated as equivalent to
> Support branch (i.e., mechanics and the like).  As an enlisted
> interrogator (MOS 97E4P) who currently has 18+ years of experience in
> the field, I was (understandably, I think) quite put out by this chargen
> rule, especially since very few MI commissioned officers in the US Army
> _ever_ learn how to interrogate prisoners of war.

As I was a grunt when I struck T2K 1e I didn't notice this, though I do 
remember being unimpressed by that on general principles. However T2k 
2e's insistence that military intelligence types take a -1 initiative 
rankled.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <20020424223740.A14385@4dv.net>
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500
Message-ID: <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 22:37, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
> >
> > Try being allergic to cig smoke.
> 
> That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
> <http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.

Yeah, right. Sure it doesn't. From what I've seen over the years just 
about anything is allergic to someone out there.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3CC8870B.29806.5BEAE4@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 9:09, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even farther with image
> intensifiers. Also, you might want not to leave much stuff around, which
> is quite hard if you have to remember collecting everything you smoke.

There's nothing quite like some smoker lighting up at night to give 
your position away. About the only way to hide all the light is to 
smoke in the sleeping bay of a full-overhead protected trench or 
bunker, with a blanket, sack or jecket over the enterance.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir
 we got trouble .
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500 <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> On 24 Apr 2002 at 22:37, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
> > >
> > > Try being allergic to cig smoke.
> >
> > That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
> > <http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.
>
> Yeah, right. Sure it doesn't. From what I've seen over the years just
> about anything is allergic to someone out there.
>

Now Rupert, The American Tobacco Institute has spent a lot of money
proving that cigarettes are good for you and you want us to believe on the
basis of your anecdotal evidence that they could cause someone a problem?
Get real buddy!


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20425.012810.2T3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in
> the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database? It
> is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken as one in 25
> of the members of the database will be misidentified... If there was only
> one picture in the database is there a 4% chance that any given person will
> be identified as it? Or much more likely, if there was only one person in
> the database 4% of the time the system would report 'no match' when
> analysing a picture of that individual.

Sorry, failure rates work *both* ways. There *will* be false matches,
not merely failures to make matches that should have been made.

Properly, they should have given the rates for false positives and for
false negatives. But the folks marketing such things don't want to
mention false positives. And without knowing the rates for both, as
well as the ratio of the total population to the number of people in
the database, you can't run numbers on this to properly evaluate it.

In another post, I did a rough evaluation with 4% error rate for both
positives and negatives. Note that for any given false positive rate,
the *number* of errors grows in direct proprtion to the size of the
population. If you scan twice as many people you get twice as many
errors. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:18:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:18:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <3CC7743B.26719.1EA397@localhost>
Message-ID: <20425.013434.5F0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 24 Apr 2002 at 10:58, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
>> Tod Glenn says
>> <snip about the "smart" camera system>
>> 
>> The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
>> the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
>> Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
>> to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
>> serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
>> incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
>> be.
>
> How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
> least keep the false positive rate down.

You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
have to be present at the trial *there*. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:21:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:21:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <20020425074906.B11272@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20425.015908.4k0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
>> of the period.
>
> Oops, it's the other way around :)
>
> (2 pi / T)^2 = G M / R^3
> so T^2 = k R^3, where k = (2 pi)^2 / (G M)

Tell the folks who printed the stronomy Quick Study reference card I
checked it on!

Aha! The text has it right, the formula below it has it wrong!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:24:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:24:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250924020.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20425.013633.5Q9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

That's better than the cartoon I have where an obvious Soviet guard
type is asking "Why are your papers in order?"

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:27:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:27:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Question on planetary orbits
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424234029.00ab4ef0@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <20425.033231.2x1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
>  >of the period.
>
> Keplers third law is that the square of the period is proportional to the 
> cube of the distance.

Blasted reference I was using had the law right in the text, but had
the exponents swapped in the formula. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:30:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:30:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  All of the above is interesting. But not my main Traveller theme part.
> For example <composing a reply to a prior msg with this topic> The entire
> premise above is dealing with the measurements of the micro$haft style of
> disks and formatting.

Actually, it's the method ised by floppy *and* hard disk controllers
for just about everything. GCR and all the rest of that was only used
by Apple and Commodore. Everybody else used the single chip FDC chips
that came out starting in 1977. And the similarly integrated HDC setups
that came out later.

The "low level" formatting is standard across just about all the
computer industry. The only variables are things like sector size and
number of sectors per track.

Dig up a spec sheet for any floppy controller chip and you'll see the
same info as to the things that can be varied. 

MS is using a format set by IBM and the "low level" stuff goes backk to
the original *mainframe* floppy disks (and hard drives) developed in
the 1960s.

I've got the manuals for an old mainframe hard drive, and the
controller level formatting options aren't that different from what
modern hard and floppy drives use. 

The Commodore setup really *is* an oddbal and *very* minority format.

> i use Commodore exclusively. First we measure in
> blocks 4 = 1kb. The single sided drives read thes disk at 664 C= blocks.

No, at the *hardware* level, it's still sectors and tracks. You just
have thungs like variable numbers of sectors per track, based on how
close to the cebter of the disk you are (I went into a lot of this with
a friend who had a VIC 20 and later a C-64 when we were trying to see
if we could reas each other's disks somehow).

Those "blocks" are equivalent to "clusters" on PC drives. And they are
a product of the OS, not the hardware. If you check into the low level
details, you'll find that the blocks are part of the *logical*
formatting (how the OS groups stuff and addresses it) not the
*physical* formatting (which is the sectors and tracks, encoded upon
the media). 

*If* Commodore had used FM and MFM encoding on the disks, rather than
GCR (basicly a different way of modulating the signal that represents
the bitstream on the media), then all it'd take to read a C-64 disk on
a PC would be some fancy software. 

As it is, it's like trying to read a Beta tape on a VHS machine. Even
if you feed the tape past the heads, the signal format is wrong. The
data encoded on the tapes is the *same* (NTSC video). 

But once you extract the bitstream, the floppy controller references
that as sectors and tracks. On a PC, we have access at that level. With
a 1541, the CPU in the 1541 has access at that level. You only have
access at the OS level (blocks, files etc) unless you can change the
code being run by the CPU in the drive.

>  Now then all tat said. We have talked about some converting things. using
> what I know which is a samttering of the techy stuff for the Commodore
> world. i have tools that allow translation on my system. Allowing me to
> translate from Pet to Ascii and back again. So that part is covered for
> text. I also have tools that allow scaling of JPGs and GIFs. These at
> videocam. That allow for my screen size. I have tools to pas along to the
> windoze and Amiga users that allow the text translation for my preferred
> DT <Desk Top> system Geos. Even the ability to make .D64 image files for
> the emulator users.

Again, you are conflating a bunch of *independent* things:

1. media type/encoding (ie what the data is stored on and how the bits
   are encoded onto the media)
   
   Examples: holes punched in paper tape, holes punched in any of
   several types of punch card, bits coded onto magnetic tape in any of
   several ways, bits on floppy disks in GCR/FM/MFM. Bits on Had drives
   in FM/MFM/RLL/ERLL

2. Media formatting (tracks, sectors, etc)

   Examples: tapes formatted with Unit, record, block, etc marks
   Disks formatted into sectors, tracks, cylinders

3. OS formatting (files, directories, etc)

   Examples: different directory & file structures in TRS-DOS (at least
   5 versions I know of that are incompatible with each other), MS-DOS,
   Mac, Apple II (at least 2 OSes), CP/M, Unix, etc

4. File formatting (how the bits and bytes inside the file represent
   the data)

   Examples: Wordstar, WordPerfect, Scripsit, MS Word, PerfectWriter
   All word processors, all encoding text with formatting
   instructions, all available for MS-DOS, all using different
   formats.

5. output device & formatting (how the data is presented to the user)
   
   Examples: fixed pitch printer, no backspace/overstrike.
             fixed pitch printer with backspace/overstrike
             proportional font printer
             loadable font printer
             "graphics" printer (ie anything that prints stuff as a
               "image fed by the computer)
   All hardcopy output devices, with different sorts of inputs and
   different output capabilities.
    

I'm saying that for the most part level 4 will be uniform. Everybody
will use or be able to translate to/from the standard Imperial file
formats.

The limits will be most a case of not being able to handle some formats
because your equipment isn't up to it.

Probably levels of difficult:

fixed pitch text in local alphabet
fixed pitch text in multiple alphabets
formatted text in local alphabets
formatted text in multiple alphabets

Still images (ie low res pixel graphics)
still images (fax/wirephoto)
still images (photos)

Audio (with various levels as bit rate and mono/stereo are added)

Video

Holo

>  OK what I am looking at on this topic is the same type of things in tols
> and utils for converting different standards and platforms in the 3I.
> Based and projecting from the exisitng styles we have now. Putting that
> into the CT game.

Depends on whether you are receiving a *signal* or media. 

If you are receiving media, you need a reader and one or more levels of
concerter to get the files out. Once you have the files, it's fairly
simple to have software take it the rest of the way. 

My list above dealt (mostly) with media.

If you have a signal, the levels are similar but different. 

Look up the OSI model for one way to break that sort of thing down.

The important thing to realize is that at *any* level of a properly
designed system, you can swap the stuff that deal with that level out
and replace it with something that handles it differently, and not
affect things much.

In fact, the C-64 is better suited demonstrating that than most
systems. Compare the way you read/write from a tape, a 1541, the
IEEE-488 based Commodore business systems drive that uses the same
floppies and format as the 1541, a hard drive etc.

As I recall, for reading/writing a *file* all you'd change is the unit
number or some such. 

So the problems faced by the players be a matter of which levels things
are incompatible at.

Wrong media (cassette instead of disk? Wrong size disk?)

Wrong encoding (GCR vs MFM or the like. Or 5 channel versus 8-channel
paper tape)

Wrong formatting (wrong size sectors? Wrong number of sector, tracks,
whatever) 

Wrong OS? (A PC formatted floppy written by OS/2 isn't much use with Windows)

Wrong file format (It's in Wordstar, they have wordPerfect)

Or a combination of the above if you are really feeling evil.

And to be *supremely* evil, when the get the data, it may be in the
wrong language. Or be a picture taken by a species that has a different
spectral sensitivity (ie, we see red to vilet. They see short IR to
Blue. Or Orange to near UV) 

That last is fun if you have a decent graphics program or if you
understand how BMPs or other non-compressed image formats store data.
Removing the color(s) they don't see is fairly easy if you are a
programmer geek. Shifting the colors is a bit harder. *Adding* the
color they don't see is harder.

Ever try recognizing something from a color IR picture? <eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
References: <20020425052154.B00C227A9C@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>

Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
very, very large capital ships?

I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
spinal mounts.

I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
sharing.

By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

Thanks, all.

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir  we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC898A7.17942.A0B903@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 7:05, alan spik wrote:

> Now Rupert, The American Tobacco Institute has spent a lot of money
> proving that cigarettes are good for you and you want us to believe on the
> basis of your anecdotal evidence that they could cause someone a problem?
> Get real buddy!

Rule #1: Follow the money.

I have no monetary interest in getting people to stop smoking, they 
have lots of interest in getting as many people smoking as much tobacco 
as possible.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:03:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:03:58 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC898A8.8362.A0BA58@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 6:36, David Smart wrote:

> Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> very, very large capital ships?
> 
> I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
> spinal mounts.
> 
> I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
> sharing.
> 
> By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
> TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

Hmm. Wasn't there an Auri-Tech research vessel around that would fill 
the bill?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:07:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:07:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <20425.013434.5F0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <3CC7743B.26719.1EA397@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC898A7.24874.A0B7D7@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 1:34, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
> > least keep the false positive rate down.
> 
> You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
> entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
> take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
> have to be present at the trial *there*. 

Well sue the originating organisation. Then sue 'em for libel in that 
they spread false infermation about you.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
Message-ID: <F1783GykBbKP7Ie8tlM000034bd@hotmail.com>

From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>

     "heres the second in my series of conversions"


Mr. Cat,

     Bravo, sir!  Well done!  Your conversions have been superb, hence the 
near total lack of comment about them on the List!
     Please enjoy the TML's Black Hole of Quality.  Could you drop the rest 
of us a postcard and let us know what that place is like?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S.  Would any of the more artistically inclined members of the List care 
to design a "TML Black Hole of Quality" medallion?  I thinking something the 
size of a gaudy soup plate on a crepe paper ribbon.  Hmmm, perhaps a simple 
lapel pin would be more appropriate...


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (silverberg)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Spacedoc v1.2 or later
Message-ID: <000801c1ec58$66b74ad0$720b1ed4@tyrell001>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I am looking for the above program or similar. Unfortunately all the
links I have found so far are obsolete. Can any one help me find this
program?
 
Many Thanks
 
Regards
 
Silverberg
 
 

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I am looking for the above program or similar. =
Unfortunately
all the links I have found so far are obsolete. Can any one help me find =
this
program?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Many Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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font-family:Arial'>Silverberg<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <F1783GykBbKP7Ie8tlM000034bd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEHCDMAA.tml@downport.com>

The new diet craze! Put on a black hole lapel pin and everyone will think
you're eating when you aren't getting a single bite!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade

> P.S.  Would any of the more artistically inclined members of the
> List care
> to design a "TML Black Hole of Quality" medallion?  I thinking
> something the
> size of a gaudy soup plate on a crepe paper ribbon.  Hmmm,
> perhaps a simple
> lapel pin would be more appropriate...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22715@USCHM203>

>I was at Benning when that happened. The common reaction was "who cares" 
>and the clubs on VD Drive never bothered to check IDs.

You were lucky. The Marines were a lot stricter. And at about the same time
they pretty much tore down Court Street, which was where all the good (or
bad if you were an MP)bars were.
So you had about 10,000 or young Marines who were able to enjoy a few beers
one weekend, and not able to the next. Fights and disciplinary violations
actually increased.
I agree that there are situations where smoking is a bad idea, but a blanket
ban on smoking would do more harm than good, in my opinion. 99% of
servicemen are not going to be in a position where it matters.

>Having addicts in the trenches does not aid 
in the mission.

I don't think jonesing for a cigarette is the same as having a heroin
withdrawal, and aside from VC with good noses in very specific
circumstances, I fail to see how smoking has any effect on combat
effectiveness. Yes, it reduces lung capacity and endurance, but those 50% +
smokers in my unit could still run six miles the same as the non-smokers.
Obviously, common sense would preclude smoking on opreations where stealth
was required. There doesn't need to be any sweeping edict affecting the
entire Army.

For the record, there were periods in the field where no smoking was allowed
for weeks. There was grumbling, but no one went into a disabling nicotine
fit.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <B8ED52C0.5887D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/25/02 1:56 AM, Frank Pitt at frankie@mundens.gen.nz wrote:

> 
> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.

Austrian Corporal. And I would call it a coup when you are elected to ofice
by popular vote.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F235nUTBnxARhnHcWhl00004133@hotmail.com>

>From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>
>Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
>very, very large capital ships?

Half a dozen or so and more hiding in my backpocket (i.e. on my HD).

>I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
>spinal mounts.

Is a 406 Gj Meson gun fitted to a 900'000 dt Dreadnough enough? If not I 
have a 2 Mdt design on my hardrive (but that is streching things a bit).

>I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
>sharing.

All you can eat at Dimash Starships:
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/starships.html

>By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
>TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

Spreadsheets availible at request for most designs.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <019901c1ec5f$4ae870c0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 4:56 AM
Subject: RE: [TML] RE: Bayonets


> Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> > Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are
> > by officers in the Captain to Colonel range, with
> > the next group being those run by Generals, though
> > these are quite often one General  replacing another
> > and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have
> > to do more reading, methinks.
>
> You will, a coup in one of the West Inddian isles (Grenada?) was
> led by a Corporal, IIRC
>
> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.
>
> Frankie
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:46:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:46:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F251utSgcOrBLSAQV6u0000a9dd@hotmail.com>

I don't know if this message showed up correctly so I'm reposting it (Davied 
Smart didn't see it on the digest). My applogies if you have allready seen 
it.

------------

>Mr. Holmstrm,
>
>I'm a member of the TML and I recently ran across an old email you sent out 
>proposing rules for the building of chem-det lasers using Bruce Macintosh's 
>"MCS" starship combat rules.
>
>If you're still playing Traveller and it isn't an imposition on you, could 
>you tell me if you ever finished a final draft of your rules?

Ohh, I'm still playing Traveller/reading the TML. The short answer to
your question is "sort of yes" but the long answer is more interesting.
I tried to pick apart the NukeDet tables in FFS and the warhead table
in MCS and reverse engineer the Frag and ChemDet warheads using MCS and
FFS. The major problems are that the ChemDet and Frag warheads mentioned in 
MCS might be handwaved and lacks stats (mass/vol/price). More details on 
NukeDets in FFS1/2 would also help. The discussion below assumes that the 
reader knows FFS and MCS. If I'm unclear somewhere just yell.

Most of my argument uses this table from MCS:
>Type                    Pen:Damage     Defence Nuclear Det-Laser            
>                                            TL15    19:13           -7
>                TL13    18:12           -7
>                TL10    17:11           -7
>Chemical Det-Laser-13   13:10           -6
>Fragmentation KKMSIM-10 10:14           -3

If the ChemDets are supposed to have a PEN calue of 13 this means that it 
must have a FFS2 DV of at least 21 (assuming PEN = 10*DAM => MCS DAM 7). 
This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking about a 
X-ray laser to it needs to be at least TL13. MCS states that NukeDets has a 
penetration value of 20 times the FFS2 damage value (instead of the usual 
PEN = 10xDAM). Further it states that the warhead (as a whole) has twice the 
damage compared to the listed damage (per beam) in FFS2. This can be used to 
determine the yield of the NukeDets used in the MCS missile table. Note that 
all the warheads mass around 500 kg.

TL     Yield    Damage  Wt       Vol
10     100 kt    80     540 kg   270 l
13     200 kt    94     500 kg   250 l
15     500 kt   113     500 kg   250 l

From the PD modifiers in MCS I drew the conclusion that ChemDets detonate 
closer to their target than DetNukes and that Frags detonates even closer. 
At shorter distances the missile will be easier to hit but this works both 
ways. Every -1 on defence makes the missile twice as hard to hit (based on 
PD RoF modifiers).

Warhead      Eff.
NukeDet       1
ChemDet       2
Frag         16

To bring the damage of the ChemDet warhead up to DAM 10 we need to hit the 
target 3 times (compared with 2 for NukeDets)using 40Mj laser pulses. Since 
the ChemDet detonates at a more efficient distance we only have to use 67% 
as many lasing rods as on a NukeDet.

Here is where we run out of information. How many lasing rods are there in a 
NukeDet? Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow 
up) or something more powerful (that does)? Can a lasing rod (as used in 
NukeDets) also be used with chemicals? What is the cost/weight/volume of the 
lasing rod and tracking telescope?


There are two ways to handle this.

1. Assume that all warheads in the MCS missile list are 500 kg/250 l. The 
cost of the ChemDet warhead is anybody's guess but say 100 kCr. The ChemDet 
with PEN13 and DAM10 will represent the baseline warhead and can be modified 
as follows.

Modify weight and volume based on Tech Level.

TL  Wt and Vol mod
13   1.00
16   0.67

By changing the power and number of the lasing rods different warheads can 
be constructed. Change the PEN and DAM values and then apply the weight, 
volume and price modifiers. Each extra point can be added to either DAM or 
PEN but not to both.  Points can also be transferred (e.g. PEN+1/DAM-1) at 
no cost.

Bonus*   Wt, Vol and Price mod
+1          1.5  (1.46)
+2          2.0  (2.15)
+3          3.0  (3.16)
+4          4.5  (4.65)
+5          7.0  (6.81)
+6         10.0  (10.0)
For negative modifiers divide instead.

Examples

A TL11 ChemDet warhead (-2).
Pen = 13 - 1 = 12.
Dam = 10 - 1 = 9.
Wt = 500 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 500 kg.
Vol = 250 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 250 l.
Price = 100 / 2.0 = 50 kCr.

A TL13 Heavy ChemDet Warhead (+3).
Pen = 13 + 2 = 15.
Dam = 10 + 1 = 11.
Wt = 500 * 3.0 = 1500 kg.
Vol = 500 * 3.0 = 750 l.
Price = 100 * 3.0 = 300 kCr.


A +3 ChemDet warhead and a ring of imperial intervention is all a traveller 
needs. ;) The modifiers are based on the 6*log10 damage scale of MCS and the 
Chemical Lasing Cartridge efficiency table. I believe this gives reasonable 
numbers but one might want to differentiate the TL table a bit.


2. Running the numbers of a 500 kg warhead using standard components.

A 40Mj 10 cm X-ray focal array with 10'000 km effective range at TL13.
Focal area  : 0.007854 m2.
Focal vol   : 0.000314 m3.
Focal mass  : 0.314 kg.
Focal price : 31.4 Cr.

Input energy  : 61.54 Mj.
Cartridge wt  : 30.77 kg.
Cartridge vol : 3.127 l.
I can't find the listed price for CLC cartridges in FFS2 so I use FFS1 
figures instead.
Cartridge price : 1850 Cr.

The weight limitation allows 16 cartridges to be fitted.
Warhead Wt    : 497.3 kg.
Warhead Vol   : 55.06 l.
Warhead Price : 30 kCr.

The result a very cheap and compact warhead but I doubt that 16 cartridges 
are enough since a NukeDet probably has more than 24 lasing rods. Building 
the thing with TL15 will allow for 21 cartridges and TL16 gets us 35 (mainly 
due to better cartridges). To be completely legal the warhead would need a 
beampointer which adds ~1000 kg at TL13. With a beampointer it is hard to 
see how any of the beams could miss at all.

Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a lot. 
TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge? Double this?


Ideas/Comments are welcomed.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>

From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>

     "I've done this with a Vargar steward on my groups ship. Keeping her in 
fresh meat is a real challenge at points. Especially since she insists on 
sharing it all with the passengers and crew."


Sir,

     Nice touch!  A steward with odd culinary ideas sounds great.  Have the 
PCs loathe the meals she prepares BUT she also lures lots of high passengers 
aboard with the same.  The PCs Beowulf could get a rep for catering to a 
certain type of traveller; they pay well and are just annoying enough to 
make the PCs batty.

     "Hadn't really thought of the ingredient angle.  Thanks Larsen."

     Your very welcome.  Have your PCs set aside a low berth for the Vargr 
steward's "supplies"?  Or rigged up a similar device in the hold or 
engineering?  How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy 
stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other supplies 
and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require PRECISE 
enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the constant risk 
of possible allergens from all those plants wafting their way through the 
ventilation system...


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:57:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:57:05 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
Message-ID: <F182WZbQLbzjADMBLxt00008700@hotmail.com>

John Groth <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
> > On 23 Apr 2002 at 13:04, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >
> > > The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST
> > > series is that everyone is an officer.
> >
> > That didn't bother me in the slightest, seeing as there were often
> > engineering officers doing what we'd have ratings employed at.
> > Obviously the later Star Trek period saw a lot of 'job inflation' in
> > the Federation. Probably some bureaucrat thought it'd help morale or
> > recruitment if everyone in Starfleet got to be an officer.
>
>I suspect that the rank inflation of the ST universe (and many other
>fictional universes) has more to do with the observation that Robert
>Heinlein (adroitly bringing the thread back to its title) made in _Job:
>A Comedy of Justice_ that civilians automatically seem to equate
>themselves with officers, regardless of the actual position the
>civilians in question hold in the employment and/or social hierarchy.

This may not be accurate, as I'm drawing on secondary sources
(FASA's Star Trek RPG) for this...

Starfleet has a whole rack of Enlisted and NCO ranks, and
people of these ranks make up the majority of the organization.

We, the viewers, keep seeing special and unusual cases.
For example, _USS Enterprise_ (from the old series) was one
of only twelve Constitution-class cruisers, and such ships
were the most prestigious ships in Galaxy Exploration Command,
which was the most prestigious division of Starfleet.  The
crews of these special ships were officers from Captain
down to bottle-washer.

Lesser ships in the Galaxy Exploration Command would have
some enlisted personnel in their crews, and ships in the less
prestigious commands (such as the Merchant Marine or
Colonial Operations Command) would have a more traditional
enlisted to officers ratio.

As I said, this is material from a secondary source, so it
may be inaccurate.  It may even be a whole-cloth creation
of the game designers, rather than a report of the actual
organization of Gene Rodenberry's Starfleet.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <F24sxyWSBuhOF3Gc76o0000388d@hotmail.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

     "I once ran an Aftermath campaign where the players were kept busy 
looking for ingredients for an omelet by a deranged gourmand in return for 
some penicillin."


Mr. Glenn,

     Ooooh, nasty, I like it!
     As a GM, I loved the "we need a nail" trick; getting the PCs to WANT to 
dance to your tune through the use of scavenger hunts.  I never really ran 
any high powered campaigns, so my PCs never needed a lefthanded frommitz 
board in order to turn back the Zho invasion.  Instead, they chased about 
after will o' the wisps as a way of making, or saving, some fast credits.
     A multi-jump high passenger, and her entourage, who will require a 
glass of tomato juice, a nobble steak, 90% humidity in her stateroom, a 
large panetella, and several rounds of whist EACH AND EVERY day while aboard 
really whipsaws the PCs.  They'll slaver over the credits they could make 
and chase around like goofs after the incidentals they'll need to bring it 
off.  That gives the GM oodles of ways to introduce new plots, new NPCs, new 
obstacles, new everything into the campaign.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:05:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:05:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <B8ED52C0.5887D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8ED5AC3.58886%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/25/02 6:29 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> on 4/25/02 1:56 AM, Frank Pitt at frankie@mundens.gen.nz wrote:
> 
>> 
>> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
>> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.
> 
> Austrian Corporal. And I would call it a coup when you are elected to ofice
> by popular vote.
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.


Sorry.  I WOULDN'T call is a coup....
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <20020425052152.7692927A9A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004901c1ec65$0d704c80$7f5d8690@computer>

> From: Lord Ronin from Q-Link 
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?
> 
>  The incorrect response is "Sorry Man I've only got a pipe."

<chuckle>

A _very_ incorrect response.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>; from babyduck@mindspring.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 07:05:51AM -0400
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost> <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020425084838.A15956@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 07:05:51AM -0400, alan spik wrote:
> 
> Now Rupert, The American Tobacco Institute has spent a lot of money
> proving that cigarettes are good for you and you want us to believe on the
> basis of your anecdotal evidence that they could cause someone a problem?
> Get real buddy!

The site I referenced was the usual medical smoking is EEEVIL sort of
claptrap, but even it admitted that smoke is not an allergen, but can
exacerbate _other_ allergies, and asthma.  As I noted.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink
I feel ashamed.  Then I look into the glass and think about
the workers in the brewery and all of their hopes and
dreams.  If I didn't drink this beer, they might be out of
work and their dreams would be shattered.  Then I say to
myself, `It is better that I drink this beer and let their
dreams come true than be selfish and worry about my liver.'
                                             --Unattributed

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 09:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr 25 08:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Judder-drive?
Message-ID: <DAV22gADGFXpWvFmaWn0000574a@hotmail.com>

Did this one die on the vine?

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns9999242

19:00 06 December 00

Full text follows:


A juddering magnet has inspired a scientist at the US Department of Energy
to investigate a bizarre new way of propelling a spacecraft.

The idea for a "judder-drive" struck David Goodwin when he noticed that
powerful, cryogenically-cooled superconducting magnets often jolt in one
direction for a centimetre or two when you first turn them on.

"If you have something metal in the magnetic field as it is forming, you see
the magnet physically shift," says Goodwin, who works at the Office of High
Energy and Nuclear Physics in Germantown, Maryland.

Superconducting magnets are cooled to such a low temperature that they have
no electrical resistance. Goodwin's magnets were made by taking
superconducting wires of niobium-tin alloy and twisting the strands into a
cable. The cables were then coated with an insulator and wound into a coil.
"The coil's then put into a cylindrical casing called a cryostat that's
filled with liquid helium," says Goodwin. The liquid helium cools the wire
coil to -269 C, when they become superconducting.

Goodwin says the metal objects create the judder effect by inducing a "brief
asymmetry in the magnetic field" as it is set up when the magnet is turned
on. This initial disturbance of the magnetic field, he says, creates a
repulsive force on the magnet and pushes it away.

But the force produced in one jolt is very low, Goodwin says, so you would
need to turn the magnet on and off with ultrafast switches, making a fast
stream of jolts. "We've got switches now that can work at high voltages at
400,000 times a second," he says. "If you could use one of these switches to
rapidly switch the magnet on and off, you might get some propulsion out of
it."

A colleague of Goodwin's at Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York is
now modelling the magnetic field of superconducting magnets to work out how
best to arrange a metallic disc in the magnetic field to produce the biggest
jolt. But Goodwin admits the judder drive might be going nowhere fast. "It's
very speculative. We don't know if it'll work," he says.

Marc Millis, who heads NASA's breakthrough propulsion physics project at the
NASA Glenn Research Center at Lewis Field in Cleveland, Ohio, has invited
Goodwin to present his idea at a propulsion conference in July next year.

The crucial thing, says Millis, is whether Goodwin's magnet would produce
any net motion at all - it might just sit there and vibrate. "It's a
definite possibility that any forces arising from Goodwin's concept will
only act within the components of the device itself, resulting in no net
force," he says. "There are a lot of unresolved physics issues to address."

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <3CC82CB1.6050208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Matthew Bond wrote:

> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in
> the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database? It
> is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken as one in 25
> of the members of the database will be misidentified... 

Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here, 
comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.

You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via 
your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of 
false positives and false negatives.

That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously, 
whihc means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched 
erroneously.

If they seriously start arresting, harassing, and otherwise 
incoveniencing people based on this system those shop owners are going 
to lose a lot more business that they would have ever lost by letting 
known shoplifters into their stores.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . .
 yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <20020424223740.A14385@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204250919130.24595-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
> >
> > Try being allergic to cig smoke.
> 
> That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
> <http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.
> 
> Perhaps you're slightly asthmatic, or have other allergies which smoke
> in generl triggers?

Tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens, but many of the things that
tobacco is treated with are allergenic.

I used to live in Kentucky where much of the world's tobacco is grown.  I
would become very ill every year during the spraying season.  You are
smoking, when you smoke cigarettes, all of the pesticides and other
chemicals.  I am not allergic to tobacco, but I have allergic reactions
that are very real to most cigarettes and an even more severe reaction to
the stale ashes of cigarettes.

Robert, you smoke good tobacco. I believe you smoke cigars or a pipe.  I
assure you cigarettes are very different.

Even the cloves I like to smoke once or twice a year cause me some
problems, which is probably why I never got addicted-- I couldn't ever
smoke more than one or two and couldn't do it multiple days in a row.

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:27:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:27:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . .
 yessir we got trouble .
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500 <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC82DFF.50605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Yeah, right. Sure it doesn't. From what I've seen over the years just 
> about anything is allergic to someone out there.
> 

<cringe> People are 'allergic', things are 'allergenic' to people...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <019901c1ec5f$4ae870c0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020425093636.00a0fec0@mindspring.com>

At 09:44 AM 4/25/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
>wars

And 0 for 2 in finishing them...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:40:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:40:11 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019752592.311.ajackson@ping>

David Smart writes:
> Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> very, very large capital ships?

Most of the designs I've seen floating about have been TL 15, I'm not sure you
can build a huge TL 12 capital ship.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:44:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:44:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . .yessir we got trouble .
Message-ID: <200204251643.EZD03454@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
><cringe> People are 'allergic', things are 'allergenic' to 
>people...
>

More to the point - it is possible for a substance to be an 
irritant, with severe effects, and yet provoke no allergic 
response.  Many of the gaseous constituents of tobacco smoke 
probably fall into this category.

Also, some chemicals can make you more sensitive to other 
irritants and allergens.  Toluene di-isocyanate, a popular 
industrial solvent, is famous for turning people into 
permanent asthmatics.

The person at the most risk, however, is probably the 
smoker.  Second hand smoke carries risks, and is an irritant, 
to be sure.  But of all of the things in the cigarette, two 
stand out.  Carbon monoxide is inhaled in sufficient 
quantities to bind hemoglobin for long periods of time.  And 
nicotine is a poison.  Nicotine, as purchased from a plant 
care store, or concentrated from tobacco, is a lethal agent 
if spilled on the skin.  And the smoker is breathing both of 
these agents in concentrations far higher than the person 
receiving the smoke second-hand.

In real life, it's not a healthy thing to be doing to 
yourself, or the others around you.  But, like other risk-
taking that we engage in, it's something that a fair number 
of people accept.  It is far more dangerous to drive your car 
to work everyday.  It is far more dangerous to allow yourself 
to become overweight, or to constantly eat fatty foods.

I am polite enough not to smoke in the presence of people I 
know will be irritated by it.  I was able to stop smoking at 
will in the field, and it never affected my ability to run or 
yomp.  

ObTrav:  IMTU It's a fantastic world of the future - they 
call it tobacco, but centuries of genetic engineering and 
chemistry have produced a product which is largely harmless 
(still working on that carbon monoxide).  Some people might 
find it an irritating habit.  And tactically, it's still a 
bad idea.  Other worlds have come up with other things to 
smoke as well.

As evidenced by "stuff on a stick" at the Regina starport, 
nothing at all has been done about fatty foods.  There are 
plenty of nachos, ding dongs, and powdered sugar donuts in 
the Far Future.
________________
There's a man who leads a life of danger
To everyone he meets he stays a stranger
With every move he makes another chance he takes 
Odds are he won't live to see tomorrow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <OF5C76E27C.BD421F78-ON85256BA6.005BCA1B@pheaa.org>






>>Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
>>wars

>And 0 for 2 in finishing them...

I don't believe Germany actually started WWI. if i remember correctly a
Serbian shot the Arch Duke this got Austria into a war then because of the
way the treaties were set up back then it was a domino effect pulling in
the other countries.

However by the time the war was over Germany had been blamed for WWI.
because they where blamed they were forced to pay reparations and
militarily eviscerated. this cause a lot of Germans to lose pride in being
German. Hitler used this to his advantage. he gave them pride again and so
they followed him.

of course this is a very very small aspect of the whole thing that i don't
have time to go into right now. i love WW2 history and took several courses
on it in both high school and college. and if given the chance could talk
about it all day 8P

anyway

Hasta

Bill









From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 11:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr 25 10:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>

From another list.  Not confirmed by me.

< Begin quote >
A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a plan
to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," Williams said in
a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, Ala.,
resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science from
the
University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in business
management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super Market at
Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
< End quote >

Opinions?

ObTrav: How about a planet that imposes a 100% sales tax on off-worlders.
And don't forget departure taxes...

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 11:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 10:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <200204251751.g3PHpXP22829@premier1.premier.net>

> David Smart writes:
> > Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> > very, very large capital ships?
> 
> Most of the designs I've seen floating about have been TL 15, I'm not sure you
> can build a huge TL 12 capital ship.

The largest TL-12 warship I designed is the 160,000 dton _Agincourt_-class.  
Given that Doug Berry's _Coronation_-class (which was used in butchered form in 
_Imperial Squadrons_) was 90,000 dtons, I would consider _Agincourt_ as 
probably a Late M:0 design.

Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my designs for 
_Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).  Note that all three 
of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry NPAW spinal mounts; I've never 
been a big fan of meson guns.  Besides, there are enough other designers who 
_are_ fond of meson guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that 
ecological niche.

I can repost any or all of these designs when I get home this
evening.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>




<snip>
< Begin quote >
A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
plan
to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
</snip>
<snip>
Opinions?
</snip>

Well if it is true then it makes me ashamed to be from Alabama. however
this guy being from Huntsville wanting to bolster NASA money is not
surprising. Huntsville is a huge NASA area. lot of research goes on there.

this is assuming this is true.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:05:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204251804.g3PI4bP24553@premier1.premier.net>

 
> >>Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
> >>wars
> 
> >And 0 for 2 in finishing them...
> 
> I don't believe Germany actually started WWI. if i remember correctly a
> Serbian shot the Arch Duke this got Austria into a war then because of the
> way the treaties were set up back then it was a domino effect pulling in
> the other countries.

And that was the point.  Austria-Hungary used Archduke Dul^h^h^h Ferdinand's 
assassination as a pretext to destroy Serbia, thus kicking off WWI.  Then, an 
_Austrian_ corporal led Germany into beginning WWII.

<<snip>>

ObTrav:  A third Alternate Imperium (along with the GTU and Mr. Whipsnade's 
Wounded Colossus) could begin with the same event (Dulinor's death) as the 
GTU.  However, in the Guns of August TU, Dulinor's assassins have links to an 
extra-Imperial power [EIP] (your choice) [my suggestion would be a polity in 
the Vargr Extents (the closest thing to the Balkans in the TU, IMHO)].  The 3I 
decides to use this as a _casus belli_ to destroy said EIP.  Unfortunately, 
other EIPs feel threatened by the upsetting of the balance of power and declare 
war on the 3I.  Still other EIPs then ally with the 3I, thus kicking off a 
general
war.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:09:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:09:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>; from texasredshift@hotmail.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:42:03PM -0500
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020425120658.A16347@4dv.net>

As ideas go, it's really not all that bad.  1% is a bit steep, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd' - Ian Lamb, age 3.5

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:13:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:13:09 2002
Subject: [TML] whoops, heres the ship
Message-ID: <3CC800B8.19293.16BC72@localhost>

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The following section of this message contains a file attachment
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you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

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--Message-Boundary-3736--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:16:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:16:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
Message-ID: <3CC80086.8268.15FA7B@localhost>

ok, heres something a little less subtle

its a conversion of the old FASA design, which replaces the 50 ton missile bay with 2 
triple salvo missile racks, which trade rate of fire for magazine capacity, but allow the 
chameleon to throw 60 missile salvoes. 

on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles in GT are 
stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? its never made any sense not 
to give them a backup homing capability, and or short range missiles for counter 
missile or anti fighter capabilities?





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:21:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:21:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
> plan
> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
> to "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"

Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want to help make
those dreams come true.

/Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 19/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:24:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:24:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Texas Redshift wrote:
>>From another list.  Not confirmed by me.

> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," 

Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You 
cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the 
First Amendment, with ample precedent.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:28:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:28:11 2002
Subject: [TML] whoops, heres the ship
In-Reply-To: <3CC800B8.19293.16BC72@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019758681.1367.ajackson@ping>

Aiii!  Think you can convinced your mailer not to base64 encode your html?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>

At 07:13 PM 4/25/02 +0100, Andy Brick wrote:
> > A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
> > plan
> > to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
> > Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> > proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> > space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> > Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
> > to "space,
> > space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
>Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want to help make
>those dreams come true.

Follow it with a 1% tax on art books, art supplies, and the sale of art 
(records, tapes, movie tickets, paintings, etc.) to fund federal art projects.

A 1% tax on school books and other educational material to go the Education 
Department.
etc.,etc., etc.

The 1% tax on porn would go straight to the Clinton Library and Slush Fund....

Ob-trav: Oh any number of a fun ways to part your players from their hard 
(or is that ill) earned credits.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <3CC80086.8268.15FA7B@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019759803.54.ajackson@ping>

shadowcat writes:

 
> on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles in GT
> are  stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? its never
> made any sense not  to give them a backup homing capability, and or short
> range missiles for counter  missile or anti fighter capabilities?

It's an artifact of the design system; sensors with useful combat range wind up
being extremely expensive.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:41:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:41:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net>

At 11:17 AM 4/25/02 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Texas Redshift wrote:
>> From another list.  Not confirmed by me.
>>Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
>>proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
>>space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
>>Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
>>space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
>Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You 
>cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the 
>First Amendment, with ample precedent.

Oh, like funking US Constitution 101 every kept anybody out of office...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020425.114504.-189505.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:56:49 +1200 "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> > Well, I hate to butt in here, but I'm a prime
> > example of the above conversation.
> >
> > I'm disabled as you all know, pulling in roughly
> > $17.5k via S.S. and my disability pension.
> 
> Just to show that "tolerable" is definitely relative:
> 
> However, outside of a few high cost areas lke New York city and
> the Silcon Valley environs, the cost of living in New Zealand is
> not appreciably lower than that in the US (at least according to
> my sister who has recently returned from  the US), so what (you
> seem to be implying) constitutes hardship for you, would be
> considered moderately well to do in New Zealand.
> 
> Of course, I'm sure someone from Russia could point out they
> could live like a king on 17.5K USD p.a.
> <grin>
> 
> Frankie

Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
To rent a 1 bedroom house here in Stockton it's $1,000 a month minimum,
to buy $125,000 minimum. For a resonably nice 2 bedroom place in a nice
area expect to start at $250,000. This is typical throughout all the
major cities in California.

Hardship, yes.

ObTrav...
What hardships are you forcing on your players?
The payment is due on your starship.
Your overdue on annual maintenance.
Your tab at the tavern is growing.
Creditors are knocking at your door.
How do you work your players to make a profit.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
Message-ID: <F89BOKvHurVEibVCrfX00004d49@hotmail.com>



>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>shadowcat writes:
>>on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles >>in 
>>GT are  stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? >>its 
>>never made any sense not  to give them a backup homing >>capability, and 
>>or short range missiles for counter  missile or anti >>fighter 
>>capabilities?
>
>It's an artifact of the design system; sensors with useful combat >range 
>wind up being extremely expensive.

I'm not a GT gearhead but the missile shouldn't have to have any significant 
range. Something like a 15'000'km sensor should be enough. The missile will 
know exactly where to look (target data over datalink) and will be much 
closer by the time an accurate position is needed.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 13:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 12:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <F89BOKvHurVEibVCrfX00004d49@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019761410.7031.ajackson@ping>

Patrik Holmstr=F6m writes:

> I'm not a GT gearhead but the missile shouldn't have to have any
> significant  range. Something like a 15'000'km sensor should be enough.
> The missile will  know exactly where to look (target data over datalink) =
and
> will be much  closer by the time an accurate position is needed.

The sensor rules in GURPS are heavily broken (as in, off by several orders =
of
magnitude).  A 10,000 mile sensor is not small.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 13:33:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Thu Apr 25 12:33:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <3CC80086.8268.15FA7B@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020425153645.00a49e30@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Shadowcat,


>on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles in GT 
>are
>stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? its never made 
>any sense not
>to give them a backup homing capability, and or short range missiles for 
>counter
>missile or anti fighter capabilities?

We created some long range bombing missiles that ran on inertial guidance, 
then went active when they hit their designated activation location.  The 
expected activation "hex" had to be planned for when a ship was within (if 
I recall correctly) 3 hexes of the activation hex.  What was done was to 
remove the warhead entirely - turning the missile into a kinetic kill 
weapon.  The primary purpose of this missile was to use it for long range 
attacks on enemy shipping.  It did require the use of GURPS VEHICLES 
missile guidance rules as opposed to the standard GURPS TRAVELLER 
rules.  The main reason for this missile's creation was to exploit the fact 
that transponders on civilian ships can be sensed out to rather *extreme* 
ranges.  The idea here was to create missiles that simulated what amounts 
to a "submarine" attack on civilian shipping.

                Hal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020329002354.00a2d920@pop.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20425.115724.3V9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Further on the Earth example, Earth is on the Suns 100d limit,


Sol's radius is 7e8 m. Or 700,000 km. So the diameter is 1.4e6 km. 

100 d would be 140e6 km. 1 AU is 150e6 km.

So it *is* pretty darn close. 

If you use the tidal force "rule" it's a *lot* smaller.

But there's no need to jump to the outer system. Unless your TU
requires jumps end at a gravity well.

Just plot your jump to clear the 100d limit of Sol and come out
"above", "below", "ahead" or "behind" Earth. Roughly 140e6 km away.
Call it 1 AU. Of course this is worst case. 

That's a long trip in normal space, but there's so much space that
ships could come out in that trying to intercept them would be a matter
of pure *luck*. And damned unlikely. 

If (as is true most of the time) Earth is closer to one "edge" of the
"shadow cone" of the sun, you'd jump for that area. Which concentrates
the ships some, but not a lot, as the difference in transit time caused
by being even a million km away from the "ideal" emergence point isn't
that great, but it *totally* hoses intercept attempts.

> so unless 
> your approach angle is from a planet that isn't blocked by the sun, you 
> have to jump to an outer system body and come in from there.

Nope. See above.

> Notably, this is seasonal, and so you might have a "pirate" season
> when the jump lanes shift.

Seasonal for a particular "route". 

> Also, I realised that there's nothing to stop the pirate from jamming the 
> victim. The J-point of the mainworld (Earth) is beyond sensor range, so the 
> pirate, if clever can avoid the patrol even knowing they had a raid.

Jamming is the exact *opposite* of stealth. Even if it's mostly
directional. It also doesn't prevent your victim from sending out a
signal, especially if it's going in a direction other then one your
have the jamming aimed.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:13:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:13:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <001601c1d6c5$0248a060$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20425.122531.2a1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Ok, lets say that there is a large habitat in the planetoid belt of the
> system (one of several such large stations), where the refined products from
> mining stations scattered throughout the belt in a 0.4 AU radius are brought
> by Cargo Cutters for transfer to a larger Jump Capable Transport for
> shipping to the Mainworld/Neighbouring systems etc.
>
> If you intercept one of the cutters you can probably arrange for the
> intercept point to be several millions of km from the nearest SDB. That
> should give you a few hours uninterrupted piracy...

Now try *doing* the intercept. 

If you are using limited delta-V rules, then it gets more than a little
difficult. Especially given that the pirate needs to save enough fuel
to make his post jump manuevers, and (in the leave behind two cutters)
enough for the second intercept and the post jump manuevers after that.

The ship being intercepted only needs to have enough fuel left to get
within range of a "tug" from it's destination.

And jumping into the attack with a high velocity can backfire. If you
come out on the wrong side of the target, youe velociity is in the
wrong direction, and you'd have been better off jumping in at rest.

And don't forget the uncertainty in emergence times. That can place you
*millions* of km out of position. After all that target ship is
*moving*. At the 200 km/sec figure someone else used, every *hour* you
are off in your emergence time means the target is 3/4s of a million km
away from the position you were planning on.

> Now if you counter this by having each little mining station serviced by
> Jump capable ships, which will need to be either J2 capable, or sacrifice
> cargo space for extra fuel (unless each little station has ample fuel
> available to refill the ships tanks), then my attack plan becomes one of
> raiding the little mining outposts and stealing mining equipment, computers,
> and anything else that can be plundered in a few hours (or maybe even days)
> before the nearest SDB can arrive... or does every little mining out post
> have a few SDB's permanently assigned to its defence? Remember, for every
> SDB on its active duty station there are 2 or 3 others in transit or
> undergoing maintenance.

If mining stations get raided regularly, they are apt to be armed. And
miners in asteroid belts will tend to have some pretty powerful lasers
for mining purposes anyway. And mass drivers for tossing low value
cargoes around the system. Nobody is going to bother hijacking a few
hundred tons of iron. But a mass driver that can toss that into an
orbit where it can be picked up by a processing plant or a planet can
toss a ton of "pebbles" at you like the shotgun from hell.

> After all, you can jump to within a thousand km of a 10km planetoid fire a
> few laser blasts at the rock surrounding the mining outpost, demand no
> resistance then send in your Hearty Swashbucklers in a cutter to plunder the
> outpost while covered by your main ships weaponry. Before any help can
> arrive you are long gone.

No, you *can't* make that jump. You can jump to that close to where it
will be IF YOU EMERGE AT THE CALCULATED TIME. 

If you emerge at a different time, you'll be *way* out of position.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:17:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:17:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <006c01c1d6d7$27f40220$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20425.124254.1N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Timothy Little writes:
>> > Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> > > The jump ship isn't that much more expensive, and the performance
>> > > difference is quite large (it's actually a week for 0.4 AU, not 0.8
>> > > AU).
>> >
>> > (Are you sure you aren't using m s^-2 instead of g's?)
>>
>> Yes.  However, I'm also using HEPlaR (as per the person I was responding
> to),
>> which means max delta-V is horrible.
>
> That was me...
>
> I've just looked up the interplanetary travel rules in TNE. Lets take a
> Cutter with 48 G-Turns of Manoeuvre fuel... that's 24 G-Hours. Obviously you
> will use not more than 1/2 of that to accelerate (assuming you intend to
> stop again...) and realistically you would rarely use more than 1/3, so as
> to leave a 1/3 of a tank for emergencies.
>
> So we will go with 8 G-Hours of acceleration. According to the table on
> p.227 of TNE that equates to 18 minutes per Lightsecond. So in 6 days
> coasting (allowing the remaining day for accelerating and decelerating) you
> can travel (6x24x60)/18 = 480Ls... which is 8 Lightminutes or pretty much
> 1AU for a typical operational range.
>
> The Maximum range would be after 12 G-Hours of burn, reaching 12 minutes per
> Ls, or  1.5 AU in 6 days
>
> In the Broadsword vs Cutter example I used earlier, both have 48 G-Turns of
> fuel as standard, but the Broadsword can dip into its Jump Fuel for extra
> manoeuvre fuel. (With its J3 capacity we can assume it can fairly safely dip
> into 1/3 of its jump fuel without hindering its ability to Jump out if
> things go bad, for an extra 15 G-Turns)
>
> At M-3 the Cutter can reach top speed in 4 hours, the Broadsword only has
> M-2 so would take 6 Hours to reach the same speed,  but it can burn for a
> maximum of 15.5 G-Hours using Jump fuel taking it to about 9 minutes per Ls
>
> Assuming the Cutter has already spent 8 G-Hours burning and is coasting when
> the Broadsword Jumps in at relative rest, just as the Cutter passes it.

That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.

> The
> cutter burns for another hour and 20 minutes to reach 12 G-Hours, the
> Broadsword burns for 7 hours 45 minutes to reach its 15.5 G-Hour burn limit.

> So the Cutter goes at 15min/ls for 80minutes then 12min/ls. The Broadsword
> averages 18min/ls for 465 minutes then it travels at 9min/ls until it
> overhauls the cutter. after both ships stop accelerating the cutter is about
> 11.6 Ls ahead of the Broadsword. It then take the broadsword a further 7
> hours or so to close to point blank range... call it 8 or so to allow the
> broadsword some deceleration to match velocities.
>
> So within 16 Hours of arrival the cutter has been caught. In this time the
> vessels have travelled about 70 Ls, or about 0.15 AU.

Except that you are assuming that the cutter is running away in a
straight line. 

It's smarter to make burns at right angles to his course. That makes
your intercept harder because you don't get to build your vector as
easily. Also, don't forget the effect of light speed lag in trying to
counter his manuevers. Until you get close, you'll lose time
accelewrating in the wrong direction after each acceleration change he
makes. 

And in an emergency like this, *he* can afford to burn his tanks dry,
because either an SDB can intercept and refuel him, or a ship can
intercept him as he zips past his desination.

*He* can afford to be floating thru space with empty tanks. *You*
can't. 

Oh yeah if the cutter *does* run "straight" away from you, and you
follow, he can damage you severely just by dumping trash out the
airlock. Work out what a 50 gram bolt will do at 288 km/sec (8
g-hours). It's equivalent to 460 kilos of TNT.

In space a straight out "stern chase" is *dangerous* for the pursuer.

> A standard SDB has 112 G-Turns of fuel, or 56 G-Hours, so at most it will
> use 26 G-Hours to accelerate. Assuming it was coasting after a 26 G-Hour
> Burn (about 6.5 hours with its 4G drive) and was pointing in exactly the
> right direction it can cover a light second in about 5.5 minutes. In 16
> hours it can travel 175ls, or ~0.37 AU. So if the SDB was perfectly position
> on a reciprocal course with the cutter and already at full speed it could be
> about 0.5AU from where the chase started and get there in time to intercept
> in other circumstances it is likely that the Pirate will have a few hours
> before an SDB arrives, and will have plenty of time to jump if an SDB
> approaches.

Yes, but jumping without having made an intercept is a net loss for the
pirate. 

And as long as an SDB can eventually make an intercept with enough feul
to get back to base with the cutter before the life support in the
cutter runs out, the cutter can burn *all* of its fuel in evading you. 

> All this assumes as well that the Cutter reacts to the Broadswords arrival
> instantly, and that the Broadsword has useful residual velocity, and that it
> didn't jump in a few Ls ahead of the Cutter to cut its lead, and the SDB is
> perfectly positioned to intercept.

And that you emerge from jump at the precise time you planned, rather
than hours earlier or later. 

And a whole bunch of other assumptions I dealt with above.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:20:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:20:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017422404.1406.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20425.130046.1P5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I suppose a situation like that could exist.  Pretty rare, though.  Also, 
> since
> you're transporting mining products (dense, low-value) you're not going to 
> use
> cutters, you're going to use bulk carriers, and stealing the cargo will be
> horribly pointless (ok, you have a load of processed ore, at Cr 5,000 per 
> dton.
> What are you going to do with it?)

Heck, with *that* sort of cargo you don't even use a ship. You just
hang some radar corners off a container (or fuse the stuff into a
reasonably solid block instead of "wasting" a container) and either use
a tug to boost it into a transfer orbit or use a mass driver to launch
it into the orbit. 

At the other end a tug graples it and drags it to the customer.

It ain't worth stealing, and it ain't worth wasting a ship on for the
whole trip. In fact, unless there's a rush, such stuff would be in low
velocity orbits that took months or years in transit. You don't *care*
how long a load takes to get there as long as loads arrive regularly.
Sort of like a pipeline.

Nobody bothers tapping a pipeline to steal oil. It ain't worth the
hassle. And so what if it takes weeks for the oil to move from one end
to the other? As long as there's a steady stream...

>> After all, you can jump to within a thousand km of a 10km planetoid fire a
>> few laser blasts at the rock surrounding the mining outpost, demand no
>> resistance then send in your Hearty Swashbucklers in a cutter to plunder
>> the outpost while covered by your main ships weaponry. Before any help can
>> arrive you are long gone.
>
> And the people in the mining outpost move into their mining tunnels
> behind 500 meters of rock and laugh at you.

And he won't know *where* the tunnels are. So all he can do is blast
the places where they reach the surface. The miners can dig out later.
*They* have mining equipment. He doesn't.

And just picture the results of sending troops into a tunnel if the
miners start a tunneling machine from the other end. 

The troops can damage the cutting heads pretty badly before it crushes
them. Or they can use weapons that are apt to kill them at the same
time they stop the machine.

And if instead of mechanical cutting heads it uses lasers or particle
beams things get *really* interesting. <eg>


Hard rock mining gear is *tough*. It has to be. Gear for cutting into
nickel iron asteroids will be even tougher.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEHCDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <DAV14JGwTVfKB0vJXpV00005a42@hotmail.com>

> The new diet craze! Put on a black hole lapel pin and everyone will think
> you're eating when you aren't getting a single bite!
>

Or place a black hole in your modem.  Everyone will think you're receiving
data when you aren't getting a single byte.

Be assured, I am appropriately ashamed.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <20020425120658.A16347@4dv.net>
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>; from texasredshift@hotmail.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:42:03PM -0500
Message-ID: <3CC91708.13447.1F83B4@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:06, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> As ideas go, it's really not all that bad.  1% is a bit steep, though.

But it should be applied to all everything. Who really thinks SF fans 
are the only beneficiaries of NASA's work?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:03:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:03:12 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <200204251751.g3PHpXP22829@premier1.premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CC91708.29789.1F8305@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:48, wombat@premier.net wrote:

> Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my
> designs for _Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).
>  Note that all three of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry
> NPAW spinal mounts; I've never been a big fan of meson guns. 
> Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of meson
> guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that ecological
> niche. 

I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not 
rea;;y a fan of them either, and seldom use them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net>
References: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 14:35, Mark Urbin wrote:

> >Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You 
> >cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the 
> >First Amendment, with ample precedent.
> 
> Oh, like funking US Constitution 101 every kept anybody out of office...

Seems to me (on a quick read-through) that if actually knowing and up 
holding your constitution was a requirement for election you'd have a 
hell of a lot fewer politicians and also a great many fewer laws.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:11:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:11:37 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425.114504.-189505.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CC91946.27653.28495E@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> To rent a 1 bedroom house here in Stockton it's $1,000 a month minimum,
> to buy $125,000 minimum. For a resonably nice 2 bedroom place in a nice
> area expect to start at $250,000. This is typical throughout all the
> major cities in California.

Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three bedroom place in an 
okay area of Wellington. In my home town of Palmerston North you'd 
probably get a 4-bedroom place.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net>
 <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425171543.00b89ec0@urbin.net>

At 09:02 AM 4/26/02 +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 25 Apr 2002 at 14:35, Mark Urbin wrote:
> > >Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You
> > >cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the
> > >First Amendment, with ample precedent.
> > Oh, like funking US Constitution 101 every kept anybody out of office...
>Seems to me (on a quick read-through) that if actually knowing and up
>holding your constitution was a requirement for election you'd have a
>hell of a lot fewer politicians and also a great many fewer laws.

Oh ya...We would probably have just one member out of our current gaggle of 
congresscritters.

...and he'd be from Texas...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8ee241a5d06@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:42 PM -0500 4/25/02, Texas Redshift wrote:
>  >From another list.  Not confirmed by me.
>
>< Begin quote >
>A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a plan
>to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
>Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
>proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
>space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
>Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
>space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," Williams said in
>a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, Ala.,
>resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science from
>the
>University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in business
>management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super Market at
>Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
>< End quote >
>
>Opinions?


How much of the budget would a 1% tax cover?
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:28:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:28:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>
References: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8ee2476727f@[143.232.119.186]>

At 2:35 PM -0400 4/25/02, Mark Urbin wrote:
>Follow it with a 1% tax on art books, art supplies, and the sale of 
>art (records, tapes, movie tickets, paintings, etc.) to fund federal 
>art projects.

I'm not sure these sort of things are such a bad idea.  It would tie 
the projects in better with their constituencies.  For example, the 
SF tax would give NASA funding from a source that puts a priority on 
its activities and give those who are interested in space research 
more results.  (And people are more tolerant of taxes that go to 
specific things they support).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com> <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020426080850.A14241@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, it's the method ised by floppy *and* hard disk controllers
> for just about everything. GCR and all the rest of that was only used
> by Apple and Commodore.

Yes, and wasn't even used in the Commodore Amiga.  It *could* read and
write GCR, but at single density.  (The GCR encoding method looks
better on paper, 4 bits out of 5, but is inherently lower-density for
a given magnetic coercivity of medium.)


> No, at the *hardware* level, it's still sectors and tracks.

Not even that: at the *hardware* level, it's a sequence of magnetic
polarity changes.  Software (or firmware) groups them into sectors and
tracks.  The Amiga didn't have a firmware sector decoder; it read
tracks in as '0' for no polarity change at the appropriate time, and
'1' if there was.  The MFM decoding, sector recognition, and error
checking was done in software -- by the CPU normally, but I wrote a
driver that used the "Agnes" GPU instead.


> *If* Commodore had used FM and MFM encoding on the disks, rather than
> GCR (basicly a different way of modulating the signal that represents
> the bitstream on the media), then all it'd take to read a C-64 disk on
> a PC would be some fancy software. 

As it is, most modern FDD controllers have MFM decoding and sector
recognition in firmware or hardware, so you can't do GCR reading
without changing chips.  However: there are software tricks by which
you can read *most* low-density GCR in an MFM drive (as in recover 90%
or so of the bits) so long as the drive hardware isn't too "smart" and
refuses to read what it thinks is a damaged sector.  Lower-density GCR
comes out with a predictable pattern of bits after MFM 'decoding'.
The only problem is loss of synchronization in low-quality drives.

I believe the Mac uses variable-speed drive hardware as well as GCR,
so this trick won't work with Mac disks.  (At least, they did 10 years
ago when I last played around with these things!)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:14:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:14:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <20020425.180812.-297303.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:42:03 -0500 "Texas Redshift"
<texasredshift@hotmail.com> writes:
> From another list.  Not confirmed by me.

Here's the actual link: 
http://www.al.com/news/huntsvilletimes/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_stan
dard.xsl?/base/news/101949940424601171.xml
 
> < Begin quote >
> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has 
> proposed a plan
> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times 
> reported.
> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District 
> seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and 
> Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to 
> "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," Williams 
> said in
> a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, 
> Ala.,
> resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science 
> from
> the
> University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in 
> business
> management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super 
> Market at
> Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
> < End quote >


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] second verse same as the first Chameleon
Message-ID: <3CC83AF3.17728.908D6@localhost>

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--Message-Boundary-8302--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F251utSgcOrBLSAQV6u0000a9dd@hotmail.com>
References: <F251utSgcOrBLSAQV6u0000a9dd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020426083935.A14400@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking about a 
> X-ray laser to it needs to be at least TL13.

That doesn't necessarily follow.  TL13 is where controlled and
contained Xray weapon lasers appear, is it not?  I would expect
detonation lasers to appear *much* earlier; TL8 or 9.


> Here is where we run out of information. How many lasing rods are
> there in a NukeDet?

I don't know.  However, the listed figures are probably the most that
can be directed at a single target (regardless of actual number of
rods).  If you have targets scattered around the nuke, it can almost
certainly generate more beams with the same warhead.


> Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow
> up) or something more powerful (that does)?

The latter, I would expect.  A cartridge that doesn't blow up is
over-engineered for this task.


>Can a lasing rod (as used in NukeDets) also be used with chemicals?

Almost certainly nuclear detonation lasers are nothing like chemical
ones.  They would be based on gamma/hard Xray radiation input to begin
with, and chemical reactions never generate such radiation.


> What is the cost/weight/volume of the lasing rod and tracking
> telescope?

TL dependent, certainly.  


> Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a lot. 
> TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing 
> Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical Lasing 
> Cartridge? Double this?

Theoretically possible, yes.  Practically?  I don't know.  The mass of
a cartridge is more than just the mass of chemical compounds contained
within it, and converting chemical energy to laser energy is usually
far from 100% efficient.  2 MJ/kg is very good, as far as I can see.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:02:38AM +1200
References: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net> <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020425164405.A20114@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:02:38AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Seems to me (on a quick read-through) that if actually knowing and up 
> holding your constitution was a requirement for election you'd have a 
> hell of a lot fewer politicians and also a great many fewer laws.

That's not escaped a lot of folks.  Including, I fear, our
politicians.  Unfortunately, a politician's job is not to uphold the
rules but to keep the mob happy.

I've often felt that it would be a good idea to declare that any
legislator voting for an unconstitutional law may no longer hold any
office.  It'd make the courts too powerful, though.  Sigh.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only kind of freedom that the mob can imagine is freedom to annoy
and oppress its betters, and that is precisely the kind that we mainly
have.                                                   --H.L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Judder-drive?
In-Reply-To: <DAV22gADGFXpWvFmaWn0000574a@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV22gADGFXpWvFmaWn0000574a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020426084822.B14400@freeman.little-possums.net>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> The crucial thing, says Millis, is whether Goodwin's magnet would
> produce any net motion at all - it might just sit there and
> vibrate.

The jolt from switching a powerful electromagnet on or off certainly
isn't anything new in physics.  The exact magnitude is extremely
difficult to calculate in practice, but the physics behind it is just
well-known classical electromagnetism.

There is of course the *possibility* that new physics applies, and so
it might be worth looking at.  However, since known physics already
predicts such a jolt I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a
reactionless drive to arise from this research.

In fact, various plasma drives under test already use a more refined
version of this magnetic back-reaction; but of course they use
reaction mass.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com> <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <20020426080850.A14241@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CC8894B.2060409@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> I believe the Mac uses variable-speed drive hardware as well as GCR,
> so this trick won't work with Mac disks.  (At least, they did 10 years
> ago when I last played around with these things!)

Only for the old, no-longer supported 400 and 800K single density and 
double density disks.

Moreover, the drivers for those 400K (and the 800 K , I think) disks 
represent the Woz's contribution to the Mac...these were actually a 
superior method of encoding than what was on PC's...you can store more 
(400 vs 360k, 800 vs 720) and it's a wee bit more reliable, since all 
the sectors are the same physical size, whereas the physical size (and 
packing of your magnetic bits) of a sector on a PC disk changes from the 
center out.

The Woz originally did this because Shugart wouldn't release specs on 
their floppy disk drives, iirc, so he hacked his own design for the 
original Apple II drives, and came up with this method.

(It's also not dumb, nor all that new, it is, essentially, the same 
mechanism a record player uses, and is used in the CD-red and blue book 
definitions)


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019696542.4978.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260840130.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Anthony:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Sure, congress is theoretically able to reinstate the draft.  They're just
> vanishingly unlikely to want to.

 The latrine-O-gram I heard was that it is just a vote of congress to
restablish the draft. An AYE/NAY vote. I can be very wrong on this point.

 Anyway FWIW I gave up a sole surviving son deferment to enlist. Thought
at the time it was the right thing to do. <1968>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260840130.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019777316.9882.ajackson@ping>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link writes:
> Hoi Anthony:
> 
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> > Sure, congress is theoretically able to reinstate the draft.  They're
> > just vanishingly unlikely to want to.
> 
>  The latrine-O-gram I heard was that it is just a vote of congress to
> restablish the draft. An AYE/NAY vote. I can be very wrong on this point.

Well, it would probably have to be a bill, like any other, requiring both
houses and a presidential signature.  There's lots of pretty extreme things
congress has the power to do, but that doesn't mean they'll actually do any of
those things.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260858570.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Mikko:

On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> Well, I wouldn't want to be in the field with smokers. It has no good
> points, and many bad.

 It was real nice of the rural VS boys after raiding a supply area to
spend the night lighting up the cigs. The red embers weren't fire flies.
I never heard what the rules by the Lao Dong party of the NVA put down if
anything about the VS and the NVA on smoking. I know that some did and
others didn't. FWIW you can tell the diffeence of cig tobacco by the
smell. Camels are the worse.

> Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even farther with image
> intensifiers. Also, you might want not to leave much stuff around, which
> is quite hard if you have to remember collecting everything you smoke.

 Policing the area is a problem for cig smokers. The cigar smokers I knew
would save the stub. Don'T remember the correct word. I smoked a pipe and
all I needed to do was spead and cover the ash.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:41:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:41:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
References: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC892D7.39DE6B02@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

>      Nice touch!  A steward with odd culinary ideas sounds great.  Have the
> PCs loathe the meals she prepares BUT she also lures lots of high passengers
> aboard with the same.  The PCs Beowulf could get a rep for catering to a
> certain type of traveller; they pay well and are just annoying enough to
> make the PCs batty.
>
>      "Hadn't really thought of the ingredient angle.  Thanks Larsen."
>
>      Your very welcome.  Have your PCs set aside a low berth for the Vargr
> steward's "supplies"?  Or rigged up a similar device in the hold or
> engineering?  How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy
> stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other supplies
> and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require PRECISE
> enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the constant risk
> of possible allergens from all those plants wafting their way through the
> ventilation system...

Sweet! Once again thanks. Hee, hee, hee those poor PC's

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #445 - 17 msgs
Message-ID: <34.2697c722.29f9ee48@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/25/2002 5:27:56 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:

For the benefit of those of us who get the digest version, could you please 
put the text in the body of the message instead of attaching it?

All I see is several pages of the following"

>--Message-Boundary-8302
>Content-type: Text/HTML; name="TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class Commerce 
Raider.htm"
>Content-disposition: attachment; filename="TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class 
Commerce Raider.htm"
>Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64
>
>PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcmFuc2l0aW9u
>YWwvL0VOIj4NCjxodG1sIGxhbmc9ImVuIj4NCjxoZWFkPjx0aXRsZT5OZXcgU2hpcCBOYW1l
>PC90aXRsZT48L2hlYWQ+DQo8Ym9keT4NCjxQPjxiPjxjZW50ZXI+PGZvbnQgc2l6ZT0iKzEi
>PjgwMC10b24gPGk+Q2hhbWVsZW9uPC9pPi1jbGFzcyBDb21tZXJjZSBSYWlkZXIsIE5ldyBT
>aGlwIE5hbWUgKFRMMTIpPC9mb250PjwvY2VudGVyPjwvYj48L1A+DQpMaWdodCBDb21tZXJj
>ZSBSYWlkZXIsIE5hc3R5IGZvciBpdHMgc2l6ZQ0KDQo8UD48Qj5DcmV3PC9CPjogMjkgYW5k
>IDEwLTE2IFRyb29wcw0KPC9QPg0KPFA+PEI+SHVsbDwvQj46ICA4MDAtdG9uIFZHU0wsIG5v
>biBMaWZ0aW5nIEJvZHksIE1lZGl1bSBGcmFtZSwgU3RhbmRhcmQgTWF0ZXJpYWxzLCBCb25k
>ZWQgU3VwZXJkZW5zZSAoRXhwZW5zaXZlKSBBcm1vcmVkIEh1bGwgKERSIDQwMDAsIFRoZXJt
>YWwgU3VwZXItY29uZHVjdGluZyBBcm1vciwgUHNpLVNoaWVsZGVkKSwgU3RhbmRhcmQgQ29t
>cGFydG1lbnRhbGl6YXRpb24sIEJhc2ljIFN0ZWFsdGggKC04LCBBTW9kIDIpLCBSYWRpY2Fs
>IEVtaXNzaW9uIENsb2FraW5nICgtMTYsIFBNb2QgLTYgWy04LCBQTW9kIDIgaW4gc3BhY2Vd
>KS48L1A+DQo8UD48Qj5Db250cm9sIEFyZWFzPC9CPjogIENvbW1hbmQgQnJpZGdlIChDb21w
>bGV4aXR5IDEwKSwgIEVuaCBTZW5zb3JzLCAgQ29tcHV0ZXIgQmFuayAoOHhNYWNyb2ZyYW1l
>LCBIaUNhcCwgSGFyZGVuZWQsIENvbXBsZXhpdHkgMTApLCAgRVcgKEhhcmRlbmVkLCBDb21w
>bGV4aXR5IDEwKS48L1A+DQo8VEFCTEUgV0lEVEg9IjkwJSI+DQo8VFI+DQo8VEggQUxJR049
>IkxFRlQiPjxVPkNvbW11bmljYXRvciBSYW5nZSAobWkpPC9VPjwvVEQ+DQo8VEggQUxJR049


Thanks

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020425.170405.-125887.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> 
> Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three bedroom place in 
> an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of Palmerston North you'd 
> probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> 
> -- 

Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security, and my disability
pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260939420.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:

 So would this tax be followed up with a 1% tax on Fantasy RPGs movies and
literature to help finance the Department of Defense <LOL>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425.170405.-125887.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CC94593.29071.D5590E@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 17:04, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security, and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.

Now that's the trick, isn't it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <200204260023.EZT00242@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link says
> So would this tax be followed up with a 1% tax on Fantasy 
>RPGs movies and literature to help finance the Department of 
>Defense <LOL>
>

Now let's think about that for a minute. A lot of us have 
already made our contribution bodily to various Departments 
of Defense (or War, as the case may be).  

Then there's old gaming codgers like Dunnigan, who are now 
central figures in mainstream DoD circles.  

I think that there should be a "lack of imagination" tax.  If 
you spend more on movies, television, and pop music than you 
do on science fiction books and role playing games, then you 
should be required to pay a 25% tax on movies, television, 
and pop music, the proceeds of which should be paid to the 
people who bring you science fiction books and role playing 
games.


We can certainly think up a complicated formula for payment, 
based on the popularity of your work over the years.
________________
There's a man who leads a life of danger
To everyone he meets he stays a stranger
With every move he makes another chance he takes 
Odds are he won't live to see tomorrow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 25 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
References: <20020425222704.BE24927AE3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC8A8A1.B8979294@earthlink.net>

Rupert Boleyn posted:
> 
> On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:48, wombat@premier.net wrote:
> 
> > Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my
> > designs for _Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).
> >  Note that all three of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry
> > NPAW spinal mounts; I've never been a big fan of meson guns.
> > Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of meson
> > guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that ecological
> > niche.
> 
> I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
> really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.

First of all, thank you to all of those who replied. Patrik, I'm
going to mine your site this evening for ideas! Your "Recurrent
Glory"-class is positively stunning.

As for meson guns..yeah, I never liked 'em. Never, that is, until
I saw Patrik's website. How about a 406 Gj Meson Spinal mount that
can punch through a cruiser's meson screen (and armor) at Long
distance?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 19:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 18:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <18819783.11D89EB1.02280B06@aol.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:
> I think that there should be a "lack of imagination" tax.

It's conversations like this that remind me that Ayn
Rand, cracked as she was, actually had a few useful
insights.

The real reason libertarianism never gets anywhere is
because *everyone* has some tax or rule that they would
like to see imposed by force on their fellow men. We
all have some behavior of which we disapprove, so we
reach for the levers of government in order to outlaw
that behavior for everyone. In short, we have met the
second-handers, and they are us.

(Yes, John, I know you weren't being terribly serious.
You just reminded me of a long-standing pet peeve.)

---
Jon



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
In-Reply-To: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>
References: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020426125234.A14613@freeman.little-possums.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy
> stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other
> supplies and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require
> PRECISE enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the
> constant risk of possible allergens from all those plants wafting
> their way through the ventilation system...

Oy!  Stop giving my GM nasty ideas!

My character already has a single-occupancy stateroom with dozens of
exotic plants, special lighting conditions, some with individual
atmospheres, and the cabin *does* have tuned gravity.  Our current
situation has some type of lifeform running around the ship, regarding
which one character has already had suspicions about where it might
have come from.  We don't need allergens as well!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
References: <18819783.11D89EB1.02280B06@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006101c1ecd1$c51ce610$9307b286@Shane>

> The real reason libertarianism never gets anywhere is
> because *everyone* has some tax or rule that they would
> like to see imposed by force on their fellow men.

We do?  Damn, I'd better come up with one quickly or I'll be a *no-one*.
Oh wait.. I already am. :)
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Member of the general public since 1976
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
References: <20425.124254.1N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <001401c1ecd2$fada91c0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>

<snip>

> Matt Bond wrote:
> > Assuming the Cutter has already spent 8 G-Hours burning and is coasting
when
> > the Broadsword Jumps in at relative rest, just as the Cutter passes it.
>
> That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
> emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.

And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that IMTU
while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
calculable duration.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:39:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:39:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
References: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com> <20020426125234.A14613@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <006901c1ecd2$f537b2c0$9307b286@Shane>

Tim wrote:
> My character already has a single-occupancy stateroom with dozens of
> exotic plants, special lighting conditions, some with individual
> atmospheres, and the cabin *does* have tuned gravity.  Our current
> situation has some type of lifeform running around the ship, regarding
> which one character has already had suspicions about where it might
> have come from.  We don't need allergens as well!

"What am I, a biologist now?  How was I meant to know the captain was
allergic to cyanide gas?"
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Trying to plead his case from the wrong side of the
airlock hatch
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:53:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:53:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <17d.7662cf6.29fa26e8@aol.com>

"Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> writes:

>We, the viewers, keep seeing special and unusual cases.
>For example, _USS Enterprise_ (from the old series) was one
>of only twelve Constitution-class cruisers, and such ships
>were the most prestigious ships in Galaxy Exploration Command,
>which was the most prestigious division of Starfleet.  The
>crews of these special ships were officers from Captain
>down to bottle-washer.

Heh. I'm of the opinion that in Star Fleet, Ensigns are a mis-translation of 
the old Terran naval tradition, since in ST they seem to be what you "run up 
the flagpole to see who shoots back"...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 22:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 21:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <20020425.213237.-125945.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 23:43:36 EDT GypsyComet@aol.com writes:
> "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> writes:
> 
> >We, the viewers, keep seeing special and unusual cases.
> >For example, _USS Enterprise_ (from the old series) was one
> >of only twelve Constitution-class cruisers, and such ships
> >were the most prestigious ships in Galaxy Exploration Command,
> >which was the most prestigious division of Starfleet.  The
> >crews of these special ships were officers from Captain
> >down to bottle-washer.
> 
> Heh. I'm of the opinion that in Star Fleet, Ensigns are a 
> mis-translation of 
> the old Terran naval tradition, since in ST they seem to be what you 
> "run up  the flagpole to see who shoots back"...
> 
> GC

There were plenty of enlisted personnel in all of the ST series, but they
were the extras, and the ones who were killed off in battles. And don't
forget the most famous enlisted man Chief O'brian.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 22:49:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 21:49:06 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <F182WZbQLbzjADMBLxt00008700@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020425223624.044bbc10@rollanet.org>

At 08:56 AM 4/25/02, you wrote:
>John Groth <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
>
>This may not be accurate, as I'm drawing on secondary sources
>(FASA's Star Trek RPG) for this...
>
>
>As I said, this is material from a secondary source, so it
>may be inaccurate.  It may even be a whole-cloth creation
>of the game designers, rather than a report of the actual
>organization of Gene Rodenberry's Starfleet.
>
>Walt Smith
>Firelock on DALNet

 From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry 
(copyright 1968)

     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 22:55:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Thu Apr 25 21:55:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020425.213237.-125945.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020425.213237.-125945.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <200204260054080915.01D811E7@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

Traveller's Aide #1 for T20 and Classic Traveller is now available, along=
 with subscriptions.
http://www.TravellerRPG.com


Hunter




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 23:08:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr 25 22:08:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: shadowcat's ships (was TML digest, Vol 2002 #445 - 17 msgs)
In-Reply-To: <34.2697c722.29f9ee48@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIEDMAA.tml@downport.com>

To facilitate your enjoyment of shadowcat's ship conversions, the Aslan
Ambassador has kindly allowed him to park them in his pocket empire:

http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
>
> For the benefit of those of us who get the digest version, could
> you please
> put the text in the body of the message instead of attaching it?


Unfortunately, placing them in the body wraps them in all of the wrong
places. All 72 (so far) of his recent conversions are there in HTML and
'GURPS Traveller Ships' (.gtv) versions.

For those who have been following, this is the direct link to his
most-recent offering
http://www.pocketempires.com/fafrhd/TL12_800-ton_Chameleon-class_Commerce_Ra
ider.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 01:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Fri Apr 26 00:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC96FDE.27660.37E569C@localhost>

I think the most interesting aspect of this proposed tax is that it 
necessitates a definition of what exactly "science fiction" is.  Is 
/Gravity's Rainbow/ SF?  Is /Flowers for Algernon/?  What about 
Michael Crichton's stuff?  And maybe some drek would be 
exempted as being science fantasy -- the Star Wars franchise, 
/ID4/, etc.

<facetious>
Good, no more petty squabbling among people who actually read 
the stuff, now we're going to get a nice, clear government definition!
</facetious>

-- Rachel

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 02:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 26 01:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote :

> Well, I wouldn't want to be in the field with smokers.
> It has no good points, and many bad.

Oh, I don't know. If I was "in the field" I would be more
concerned about my personal survival than the rest of the unit,
and if the others were smokers that makes them bigger targets
than I, presumably increasing my chances of survival!
<grin>

> Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even
> farther with image intensifiers. Also, you might
> want not to leave much  stuff around, which
> is quite hard if you have to remember collecting
> everything you smoke.

I always remember the surprise I got when it was demonstratd to
me that a person taking even a clandestine puff on a
hand-shielded cigarette can be seen from over 2kms with the naked
eye in the dark. The flare of a lit match is even more visible.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:10:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:10:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017438121.4165.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20425.131430.3i5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> And the output of the mining won't be, for example, lanthanun ore, it will
>> be lanthanum... the availability of cheap fusion power makes refining the
>> ore at site then shipping the refined product cost effective compared to
>> shipping ore to a larger refinery elsewhere.
>
> Sort of true.  However, there's no real reason to have multiple small
> mines in a system; just use one big mining ship, reduce asteroids to
> rubble one at a time, and move on.

Actually, this is a flaw in the background. With cheap fusion power,
and especially if the fusion is based on continuous fusion in a plasma
(confined magnetically or by a combo of magnetic and gravitic forces)
you shovel rock in one end and get isotopically pure elements out the
other. The stuff you don't have much need for (like silicon and
aluminum, which "rock" has *way* too much of) you just combinine with
the (way too much) oxygen to form convenient lumps of quartz and
sapphire. 

You'll wind up with megatons of "common" elements, and tons of rare
ones... 

Assuming abundances similar to the Earth's crust, from 10 million tons
of rock (a cube about 1.5 km on a side), you'll get:

        mg/kg			yeild
        -------		----------------------
O	4.61e5		4.6e9	 4,600 kilotons
Si	2.82e5		2.82e9	 2,820 kilotons
Al	8.23e4		8.23e8	   823 kilotons
Fe	5.63e4		5.63e8	   563 kilotons
Ca	4.15e4		4.15e8	   415 kilotons
Na	2.36e4		2.36e8	   236 kilotons
Mg	2.33e4		2.33e8     233 kilotons
K	2.09e4		2.09e8	   209 kilotons
Ti	5.65e3		5.56e7	55,600 tons
H	1.4e3		1.4e7	14,000 tons
P	1.05e3		1.05e7	10,500 tons
Mn	9.50e2		9.50e6	 9,500 tons
F	5.85e2		5.85e6	 5,850 tons
Ba	4.25e2		4.25e6	 4,250 tons
Sr	3.70e2		3.70e6	 3,700 tons
S	3.5e2		3.5e6	 3,500 tons
C	2.00e2		2.00e6	 2,000 tons
Zr	1.65e2		1.65e6	 1,650 tons
Cl	1.45e2		1.45e6	 1,450 tons
V	1.20e2		1.20e6	 1,200 tons
Cr	1.02e2		1.02e6	 1,020 tons
Rb	9.0e1		9.0e5	   900 tons
Ni	8.4e1		8.4e5	   840 tons
Zn	7.0e1		7.0e5	   700 tons
Ce	6.65e1		6.65e5	   665 tons
Cu	6.0e1		6.0e5	   600 tons
Nd	4.15e1		4.15e5	   415 tons
La	3.9e1		3.9e5	   390 tons
Y	3.3e1		3.3e5	   330 tons
Co	2.5e1		2.5e5	   250 tons
Sc	2.2e1		2.2e5	   220 tons
Li	2.0e1		2.0e5	   200 tons
Nb	2.0e1		2.0e5	   200 tons
Ga	1.9e1		1.9e5	   190 tons
N	1.9e1		1.9e5	   190 tons
Pb	1.4e1		1.4e5	   140 tons
B	1e1		1e5	   100 tons
Th	9.6		9.6e4   96,000 kilos
Pr	9.2		9.2e4	92,000 kilos
Sm	7.05		7.05e4	70,500 kilos
Gd	6.2		6.2e4   62,000 kilos
Dy	5.2		5.2e4   52,000 kilos
Ar	3.5		3.5e4   35,000 kilos
Er	3.5		3.5e4   35,000 kilos
Yb	3.2		3.2e4   32,000 kilos
Hf	3.0		3.0e4   30,000 kilos
Cs	3		3e4     30,000 kilos
Be	2.8		2.8e4   28,000 kilos
U	2.7		2.7e4   27,000 kilos
Br	2.4		2.4e4   24,000 kilos
Sn	2.3		2.3e4   23,000 kilos
Eu	2.0		2.0e4   20,000 kilos
Ta	2.0		2.0e4   20,000 kilos
As	1.8		1.8e4   18,000 kilos
Ge	1.5		1.5e4   15,000 kilos
Ho	1.3		1.3e4   13,000 kilos
W	1.25		1.25e4  12,500 kilos
Mo	1.2		1.2e4   12,000 kilos
Tb	1.2		1.2e4   12,000 kilos
Tl	8.5e-1		8.5e3	 8,000 kilos
Lu	8e-1		8e3      8,000 kilos
Tm	5.2e-1		5.2e3    5,200 kilos
I	4.5e-1		4.5e3	 4,500 kilos
In	2.5e-1		2.5e3	 2,500 kilos
Sb	2e-1		2e3	 2,000 kilos
Cd	1.5e-1		1.5e3	 1,500 kilos
Hg	8.5e-2		8.5e2	   850 kilos
Ag	7.5e-2		7.5e2	   750 kilos
Se	5e-2		5e2	   500 kilos
Pd	1.5e-2		1.5e2	   150 kilos
Bi	8.5e-3		8.5e1	    85 kilos
He	8e-3		8e1	    80 kilos
Ne	5e-3		5e1         50 kilos
Pt	5e-3		5e1         50 kilos
Os	1.5e-3		1.5e1	    15 kilos
Ir	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Rh	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Ru	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Te	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Re	7e-4		7	     7 kilos
Xe	3e-5		3e-1	   300 grams
Pa	1.4e-6		1.4e-2	    14 grams
Ra	9e-7		9e-3	     9 grams
Ac	5.5e-10		5.5e-6	 5,500 micrograms
Po	2e-10		2e-6	 2,000 micrograms
Rn	4e-13		4e-9	     4 micrograms

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote Clan Trader
Message-ID: <3CC92AA7.7B2468DE@mindspring.com>

Grote Clan Trader
Most clans make their living by operating free traders or the 300 dT
Grote Clan trader. These clan vessels serve along carefully
planned and investigated trade loops that service dozens of smaller
worlds. A Grote trader showing up twice a year may be the
only "scheduled" trader some worlds see. Clan members may have been
anywhere between the Far Frontiers, Vland, and the
Trans-Rift jump 5 route.

 Craft ID:         Grote Clan Trader, TL 11, 147.229 Mcr, Quantity
discount 132.506 MCr

 Hull:         270/675, Disp=300, Config=Cone 2Sl, Armour=Crystaliron
40E, Loaded=4521.07, Unloaded=3253.106

 Power:          Primary 8/16, Fusion=726 Mw, Duration=30days
                      Secondary 12/24, Fusion=1062 Mw, Duration=3days,
Scoops, Purifiers 24 Hours
                     ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=34 days

 Loco:          8/16 Jump=2, 5/10 Maneuver=1G, Agility=1, NOE=150 Kph

 Comm:         Radio=System x 1, Laser =System x 1

 Sensors:       A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1
                     Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=-  POP=-  PES=R
PEP=-

 Off:         3 Hardpoints, 3 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  Triple Laser-7        x 1 in 1 battery

                                      Triple Sand-10      x 1 in 1
battery
                                      Triple Missile-7     x 1 in 1
Battery
                        Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Missile   2    -     -
                                          1
                             Laser     3    -    -
                                           1
                             Sand      4    -    -
                                           1

 Def:            Def DM= 4

 Control:     Computer=Model 3fib x 3, Panels=Dynamic Linked x 369, HUD
x 5

 Accom:     Officer=1 Crew=7 ( Bridge=2 Engineering=2 Gunners=2
Command=1 Stewards=1 Frozen=8 ) Passengers:
                 High=10  Staterooms=10 Small Staterooms=8, Low
Berths=8, Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
                  inertial comp, Airlocks x 2

 Subcraft:  Air/Raft x1(4 dton, TL 11)

 Other:      Cargo=1376.7 Kl/102 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=907 Kl/67
tons, ObjSize=Average, Ram time= 1.1hours


Author: Alan Spik
Adapted from
Ship: Clan Menzies
Class: Grote Clan Trader
Type: Merchant
Architect: William R. Cameron

USP
         MP-32212B1-040000-30002-0 MCr 162.134 300 Tons
Bat Bear             1     1   1   Crew: 8
Bat                     1     1   1   TL: 11

Cargo: 100.000 Passengers: 10 Frozen Watch Fuel: 66.000 EP: 6.000
Agility: 1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 1.621   Cost in Quantity: MCr 129.707

Note:

     Price increased slightly.
     Computer model increased to 3/fib as 2/fib has not enough control
points. I put five HUD onboard one each for gunners,
     Bridge crew and the commander.
     Passenger get normal Staterooms, Crew have individual small
Staterooms
     Power increased to 7.2 EP to cover weapons and agility. Plant split
into a primary and secondary for 30 days normal
     operation, agility 0, and a 3day combat/agility boost
     Added Air/Raft

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:45:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:45:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote Outrim Jade Patrol craft
Message-ID: <3CC92C3E.F65CA749@mindspring.com>

Grote Outrim Jade Class Escort Patrol
    The Outrim Jade class is Grotes answer to the Escort vessel for the
Merchant Fleet. In addition to escorting the legendary
Grotian Black Ships, they can be found patrolling merchant routes or
hunting the occasional transgressor against the sanctity of
the traders.
 Craft ID:    Grote Outrim Jade class patrol vessel, TL 13, 613.028 Mcr,
Quantity discount 551.725 MCr

 Hull:       540/1350, Disp=600, Config=Dome/Disc 6Sl,
Armour=Crystaliron 52E, Loaded=11836.149,
              Unloaded=11377.19

Power:       Primary 29/58, Fusion=3,978 Mw, Duration=30 days, Scoops,
Purifiers 24 Hours
                 Secondary 51/102, Fusion=6,840, Duration=3 days
                 ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=103 days

 Loco:          22/44, Jump=2, 43/86, Maneuver=3G, Agility=0/3

 Comm:          Radio=System x1, Laser=System x 1

 Sensors:          A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1, Hi-pen
Densinometer(1m) x 1, Neutrino(1Gw) x 1
                       Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=F  POP=F
PES=R  PEP=F

 Off:         6 Hardpoints, 6 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  Triple BLaser-7     x 2 in 2 battery
                                      Triple Sand-10      x 2 in 2
battery
                                      Triple Missile-7     x 2 in 2
Battery
                        Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Missile   3    -     -
                                          2
                             Laser     4    -    -
                                          2
                             Sand      4    -    -
                                          2

 Def:         Def DM=9

 Control:          Computer=Model 5fib x 3, Panels=Dynamic Linked x
1323, HUholoD x 9, Large Holodisplay x1

 Accom:      Officer=5 Crew=25 ( Bridge=3 Engineering=4 Gunners=4
Flight=4 Troops=10 Command=4 Stewards=1)
                  Staterooms=5, Small Staterooms=25, Emergency Low
Berths=6, Env=basic env, basic ls,
                  extended ls,  grav plates,  inertial comp, Airlocks x
4

 Subcraft:         Gig x1(20 dton, Crew=3, TL=13)

 Other:          Cargo=215 Kl/15.9 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=3485
Kl/258 tons, ObjSize=Large, Ram time= 2.2 hours


Author: Alan Spik
Adapted from
Ship: Outrim Ruby
Class: Outrim Jade
Type: Escort/Strike Patroller
Architect: Shemp

USP
         EP-66335C2-440000-40003-0 MCr 548.576 600 Tons
Bat Bear             2     2   2   Crew: 25
Bat                     2     2   2   TL: 13

Cargo: 10.000 Emergency Low: 6 Fuel: 210.000 EP: 30.000 Agility: 3
Marines: 10
Craft: 1 x 20T Pinnace
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x 1G Maneuver Drive 1 x Jump 1 Drive 1 x Factor 1 Power Plant
1 x
Model/1 Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 5.486   Cost in Quantity: MCr 438.861

Notes:

      As specified, w/o backups and increasing the power plant to
achieve agility 3 the vessel has a volume deficit of 150
     dtons. I changed the power plant to a primary/Secondary (Normal
operations/Weapons & Screens) power system 30/3
     days total 43+ EP ( With the below changes/notes this brings cargo
to 15.9 tons)
     Computer increased to 5 fib to cover control points
     Crew increased to 30 by crew calculation
     9 HUholoD installed for Gunners, Bridge Crew and some of command
crew. Large holodisplay installed
     Assume Officers are in standard staterooms Crew are in small
Staterooms
     In addition to A-EMS and P-EMS I installed TL appropriate Hi-pen
Densinometer and Neutrino detector
     Price increased
     Pinnaces in the OTU and IMTU are 40 dtons. I substituted a 20 dton
Gig.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote Black Ship
Message-ID: <3CC92D0B.F946A2A4@mindspring.com>

Grote Black Ship
The Grote Black Ship is the 57th century version of the containerized
cargo ship. They make a bee-line to the entrepot system,
stopping only long enough to refuel. In transit to their destination,
Black Ships refuel only at Class A or B ports in trustworthy
systems. Otherwise the escorting vessels act as fuel lighters during
frontier refueling. The wilderness refueling points may be
very distant gas giants, Kuiper belt objects, or random comets. A system
may never know that a Black Ship convoy has
passed through. They hump precious cargo and replacement crew from Grote
to whatever system has been designated the
sector entrepot that year. The clan traders moving along their trade
loops all eventually visit the designated entrepot system to
pick up new crew and high TL goodies. The boost in trade leads systems
in these sectors to compete among each other to host
the Grote entrepot. The Black ship is unusual in that it is built from
high tech parts imported to Grote by

 Craft ID:         Grote Black Ship, TL 13, 2403.599 Mcr, Quantity
discount 2163.239 MCr

 Hull:      6300/15750, Disp=7,000, Config=Irregular 7Usl,
Armour=Superdense 40E, Loaded=76334.002,
              Unloaded=53789.964

 Power:          Primary 125/250, Fusion=16,848 Mw, Duration=30 days,
Scoops, Purifiers 24 Hours
                     Secondary 113/226, Fusion=15210 Mw, Duration=3
Days( Weapons, Screens and Agility)
                     ExtEnd excludes: (1g), =62 days

 Loco:          315/630 Jump=4, 126/252, Maneuver=1G, Agility=0

 Comm:          Radio=System x 1, Laser =System x 1

 Sensors:   A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1, Hi-pen
Densinometer(1m) x 1, Neutrino(1Gw) x 1
                Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=F  POP=F  PES=R  PEP=F

 Off:         70 Hardpoints, 70 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  Triple Laser-13        x 10 in 10
battery
                                      Triple Sand-10      x 30 in 10
battery
                                      Triple Missile-13     x 30 in 3
Battery
                        Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Missile   7    -     -
                                          3
                             Laser     4    -    -
                                           10
                             Sand      6    -    -
                                           10

 Def:         Def DM= 6, Nuclear Damper=F3

 Control:          Computer=Model 6fib x 3, Panels=Holodynamic Linked x
4419, HUholoD x 64, Large holodisplay x 1

 Accom:          Officer=17 Crew=152 ( Bridge=10 Engineering=14
Maintenance=1 Gunners=47 Flight=10 Command=14
                      Stewards=3 Medical=70) Passengers: Low=1400
Staterooms=17 Small Staterooms=152, Low Berths=1400,
                      Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
inertial comp, Airlocks x 14

 Subcraft:         Gig x 1 (20 dton, Crew=3, TLC), Modular Cutter x 2
(50 dton, Crew=2, TLC)

 Other:          Cargo=20375.9 Kl/1509.3 tons, EMLevel=Moderate,
Fuel=30973 Kl/2294 tons, ObjSize=Large

Author: Alan Spik
Created from a discussion with Mr. LE Whipsnade

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:51:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:51:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Grotes Clan Shps
Message-ID: <3CC92DBB.6AA8007C@mindspring.com>

Hi all!
The vessels that follow were converted from LEW's HG2 designs of the
Grote Clan vessels.Or created from discussions concerning Grote and ways
to kill the PC's......I mean make the game more enjoyable.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC96FDE.27660.37E569C@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEGPHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rachel Kronick wrote :

> I think the most interesting aspect of this proposed
> tax is that it  necessitates a definition of what
> exactly "science fiction" is.

Good point.

> Is /Gravity's Rainbow/ SF?  Is /Flowers for Algernon/?

I'd say yes to both personally.

> What about Michael Crichton's stuff?

Yes, definitely. At least Andromeda Strain, and the Jurassic Park
stuff anyway.

> And maybe some drek would be exempted as being science
> fantasy -- the Star Wars franchise, /ID4/, etc.

That's probably the market they want to tax because it's so
profitable!

Would '1984' count as science fiction seeing as it is in the
past?
Or "2001" ?
How about Harry Turtledove's "The Guns of the South" ?
Or Steampunk (like the recent "Wild Wild West"?
And what about Yeats' "Erewhon" ?
Or Swift's "Gulliver's Travels" ?

Is "The Cube" SF or horror ?
How about "Event Horizon", "Pitch Black", or even "Alien"?

Deciding this could keep the US legislators busy for many months.

What a great idea this is, they could then start funding
hospitals with a tax on hospital dramas, and police forces with a
tax on police shows, and prisons with a tax on the Sopranos, and
mental institutions with a tax on "Fraser" (or perhaps any sitcom
for that matter, and those reality TV shows to boot).

> <facetious>
> Good, no more petty squabbling among people who actually read
> the stuff, now we're going to get a nice, clear
> government definition!
> </facetious>

That would probably be the best thing to come from this.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 05:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 04:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <3CC898A7.24874.A0B7D7@localhost>
Message-ID: <20426.032205.4g1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 25 Apr 2002 at 1:34, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
>> > least keep the false positive rate down.
>> 
>> You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
>> entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
>> take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
>> have to be present at the trial *there*. 
>
> Well sue the originating organisation. Then sue 'em for libel in that 
> they spread false infermation about you.

Trouble is, that doesn't work if it's a police department making an
"honest mistake". As I've said, over the years comp.risks has had posts
about a number errors of that sort.

The best you can get from the originating department is for them to fix
*their* records. They are *not* responsible for other departments
picking up the erroneous "want" and sticking it in their own databases.

You really and truly *do* have to sue each and every department,
individually.

Now in the "private mall, using this for security" scenario, then you
have a *much* better chance of winning a suit. But if it's a police
agency, it's a *lot* harder.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 05:21:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 04:21:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <001401c1ecd2$fada91c0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20426.031637.5Y6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>
> <snip>
>
>> Matt Bond wrote:
>> > Assuming the Cutter has already spent 8 G-Hours burning and is coasting
> when
>> > the Broadsword Jumps in at relative rest, just as the Cutter passes it.
>>
>> That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
>> emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.
>
> And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that IMTU
> while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
> calculable duration.

Pardon me for not keeping track of the ways your TU differs from the
OTU over the time that's passed since those posts...

If your TU differs from the "standard" one, then you need to
*explicitly* state applicable differences or live with people assuming
that anything you haven't specificly mentioned works "normally". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 05:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 04:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (OT/spam) FS: TSR's ALTERNITY gamebooks
Message-ID: <200204261140.g3QBeuG09224@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

  FWIW, if anyone is interested in space opera I've getting
rid of a largish collection of TSR's (or WotC - take your 
pick...) ALTERNITY rules and supplemnts, & STARDRIVE and 
DARK MATTER settings. Replies to me, _not_ the TML :)

  Steven Hudson - shudson@lightspeed.ca 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 06:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr 26 05:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise (With my Jump Durat
 ion rules reiterated)
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8B@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> 
> In mail you write:
<snip>
> > And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you 
> would know that IMTU
> > while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a 
> predictable and
> > calculable duration.
> 
> Pardon me for not keeping track of the ways your TU differs from the
> OTU over the time that's passed since those posts...
> 
> If your TU differs from the "standard" one, then you need to
> *explicitly* state applicable differences or live with people assuming
> that anything you haven't specificly mentioned works "normally". 

Well as I had mentioned it detail both in earlier parts of the piracy
thread *and* the astogation thread, I got tired of writing it out in
every post... 

To reiterate:

The only difference in my universe is that rather then rolling jump
duration *after* jump has commenced, and the duration being unknown
until just before emergence, I roll *before* jump, and the duration is
calculable by the astrogator prior to jump starting. Any other vessel
initiating jump from within a few thousand km of the jump intitation
point heading to within a few thousand km of the jump exit poit within a
few hours will have the same duration (to within a few minutes or less).
Jumps to or from diffent points, or at different times will have
different jump durations (ie roll a new duration). 

A skilled astrogator can calculate the jump duration for increasingly
distant start times, and so may be able to identify a quicker jump
duration 'window' occurring in several hours time that will result in
earlier arrival time than jumping immediately (ie roll a number of jump
'window' durations equal to the astrogators skill. Each window is
several hours long (somwhere between 4 and 6 seems appropriate). So you
if you have skill 4 you know *in advance* the jump duration if you jump
now, in 4 hours, 8 hours, 12 hours, or 16 hours time etc. 

Oh, and an 'astrogator' of skill 0 gets no advance rolls, so is stuck
with whatever jump duration he rolls on initiating Jump. He is unskilled
enough to calculate a jump duration before conditions have changed such
that the calculated time is moot. He still knows what time they will
emerge from jump though, as he can caulate the exit time and get the
answer a few hours into the jump as he knows what conditions were on
jump initiation...

What are the benefits of my interpretation of when jump duration is
rolled? Coordinated Fleet Movements and improved value of astrogation
skill. Both of which I find desirable. Downsides to my interpretation?
none that I can think of. I still retain the canonicity of random jump
duration, only my interpretaion of when the random duration is rolled is
different. 

And I'm hard pressed to recall any GDW canon (as opposed to possible
Gurps or DGP canon) which states that the rolled duration is unknown
until exit, just that there is a variable duration to jumps and that
they do not all take 7 days, but instead take roughly 6-8 days and a
roll is made to determine exact duration. Indeed I recall mention in
some GDW products that Fleets can arrive simultaneaously, which must
either mean jump duration is known in advance so that each ship can jump
in staggered intervals to co-ordinate arrival times, or all ships in a
given vicintity at a given time jumping to the same destination have the
same jump duration, or indeed, as I have interpreted it, jump duration
is both known in advance and is constant for a given jump at a given
time.

I await your comments with both bated breath and asbestos undies...

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 08:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 26 07:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On:  Glenn Grant's Smart Fabrics!
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1019830438.0.01037600@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Some years back, there was a discussion on the TML of the use of optic technology to weave a "smart" fabric. It was authored by Glenn Grant with the input of Rob O'Connor, Mikko, and others of this list. The results can be found on our mail host's wonderful Traveller Central website.

Well...

Today, ABCNews.com has posted a story of a Real Life(tm) fabric fiber (fibre, for those across the pond) that incorporates optic technology. The story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/CuttingEdge/cuttingedge020426.html

The team that developed the new fiber/fibre is part of the new Institute for Soldier Nanotechnology at MIT. Cost of the process is 10 U.S. cents per meter.

Reflec, anyone? 

I know, I know. We may not be there yet, but...

David Smart
("We Want Jumpdrive! We Want Jumpdrive!")

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 08:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 26 07:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Message-ID: <F257P5o7P6umLrXWq0G0000075e@hotmail.com>

From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>

     "The vessels that follow were converted from LEW's HG2 designs of the 
Grote Clan vessels.  Or created from discussions concerning Grote and ways 
to kill the PC's... I mean make the game more enjoyable."


Ladies and Gentlemen,

     I do hope you enjoy Mr. Spik's masterful MT conversions of two ships 
from a long ago campaign.  I know I have.
     His efforts gave me a new appreciation of MT's ship design rules.  I 
would have never thought it possible to do what he has done.
     For those of you who may be interested, here's a little background on 
the (supposed) thought processes that went into the original designs.

     Both the Trader and Patroller first saw life as Book2 designs.  In the 
case of the Trader, interpolation of the hull and engineering tabels was 
required.  The jump between Book2 and HG2 presented little difficulty.
     The Trader was an attempt to fashion a jump2 Beowulf.  The Patroller 
was an attempt to create a more "manageable" Broadsword.  While both vessels 
"fit" into a Whipsnadian TU, whether they could actually work in other TU's 
is debatable.  You can already see the problems one has recreating them in 
MT terms, whether they can built in FF&S1/2 or GT is unknown.  Indeed, 
whether the Trader can break even in GT:FT is unknown.
     In the few campaigns in which they they appeared, I never bothered to 
fully detail the Black Ships.  The PCs never served aboard one, visited one, 
or saw one, except at a great distance.  The Black Ships were a bit of 
background "chrome", like the omnipresent, but rarely seen, megacorp 
megafreighters.  Mr. Spik's wonderful design for the Black Ships now resides 
permanently on my hard drive and back-up discs.


     Flexiable Batteries

     I should also fill you in on a Whipsnadian house rule regarding 
batteries.  A flexiable battery structure was part of my campaign, 
especially aboard naval and PC-crewed vessels.  Put simply, during each 
combat round similiarly armed turrets could be grouped into batteries as the 
players saw fit.  Thus turrets can be split up into whichever battery 
grouping the PCs deem fit for the situation.  All the laser turrets can be 
consolidated for a better offensive strike or parceled out for more 
anti-missile chances.  You can combine several missile turrets into a more 
powerful salvo or split them into smaller salvos to swamp any anti-missile 
fire.
     In the case of the Outrim Jade, which sports two turrets with 3 beam 
lasers apiece, that vessel could either fire a single battery with an USP 
rating of 5 (6 lasers for 4, with +1 TL13 bonus) or two batteries with USP 
ratings of 4 (3 lasers apiece for 3, with the +1 TL13 bonus).  Obviously the 
missile turrets and sandcasters can be "flexed" in the same manner.
     Software, hardware, and manning requirements for the batteries/turrets 
gets a little squirrelly.  By GM fiat, I simply decreed that naval vessels 
had the software, hardware, and personnel necessary to "flex" their 
batteries into any configuration desired.  Getting the necessary software 
and hardware to do the same was a campaign goal for my PCs.  IIRC, I forced 
the PCs to set aside ~0.25 dT per turret for the mechanical end of things, 
plus another 1 dT on the bridge.
     The software costs were handled by requiring them to purchase all new 
offensive and defensive programming for the weapon types and abilities they 
wished to "flex".  Thus, to flex missile turrets they'd need both a new 
launch and target program.  To add gunner skills to the flexed batteries, a 
new interact program would be required.  To perform flexed anti-missile 
fire, a new program for that.  And so forth.
     Manning requires a bit more explanation.  Obviously, any turret used 
alone requires a gunner.  But only one gunner is needed for any battery.  To 
further confuse matters, any battery consisting of any number of turrets 
could be fired from a specific bridge station by a crewmember dedicated to 
that task for that combat round.
     Taking the Outrim Jade as an example; that vessel has two triple laser 
turrets.  One turret could be fired alone locally or in a battery from 
either the bridge or one of the turrets in that battery.  The gunner 
performing that action would be unable to do anything else during that 
combat round, i.e. DC work.
     This bit of Whipsnadian silliness also allowed the PCs to put gunnery 
skills to better use.  A PC with a high gunnery skill need not be shackled 
to a particular turret.  Instead, she could man a bridge station and take 
command of specific turrets or batteries depending on the situation.  My PCs 
seemed to enjoy the "extra" control in combat situations and it's all about 
having fun, right?

     I'm sure all of this will excite comments, mostly along the lines of 
"You're really #&$@#&$ nuts, Larsen", and I look forward to hearing them.  
Unfortunately, I will be away until late Sunday on business.  If your 
comments go unremarked over the next 72 hours, that is the reason why.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 09:12:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 08:12:44 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020425223624.044bbc10@rollanet.org>
References: <F182WZbQLbzjADMBLxt00008700@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426075429.009ed120@mindspring.com>

At 10:49 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
> From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry 
> (copyright 1968)
>
>     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
> only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
> goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
> Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer."

An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS.

Of course, it goes along nicely with ST's socialist view.. in the Soviet 
military all the technical jobs were held by officers.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 09:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 26 08:53:04 2002
Subject: Ship's weapons (was Re: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?)
Message-ID: <12b.105c4b92.29fad1cc@aol.com>

--part1_12b.105c4b92.29fad1cc_boundary
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In a message dated 4/26/02 2:10:03 AM Central Daylight Time, several 
anti-Meson opinions get flexed:
> 
> > I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
> > really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.
> 

That is a pretty good question, isn't it?  
   In its nondestructive form, it can be manipulated to be used as both an 
undetectable _and_ unjammable communications source, while in its _far_ more 
popular (and destructive) application, it can be manipulated in such a way as 
to entirely _bypass_ an otherwise solid hull to magically cause explosions 
_inside_ a target.
   The entire "it just does" concept (talk about handwaving) associated with 
Meson Technology has never sat right with me, and I've never used it IMTU.
   So the above question, along with several different takes on Starship 
Combat and weaponry on the web, got me to wondering about just _what_ 
technologies (whether canon or not) folks use or don't use.
   Illuminate me :)

  -Ken Murphy-
   
"When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer 
for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out 
of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God 
Almighty have mercy on you!" 

Legion of the Damned
Sven Hassel   


--part1_12b.105c4b92.29fad1cc_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/26/02 2:10:03 AM Central Daylight Time, several anti-Meson opinions get flexed:
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BR>&gt; I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
<BR>&gt; really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>That is a pretty good question, isn't it? &nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;In its nondestructive form, it can be manipulated to be used as both an undetectable _and_ unjammable communications source, while in its _far_ more popular (and destructive) application, it can be manipulated in such a way as to entirely _bypass_ an otherwise solid hull to magically cause explosions _inside_ a target.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">The entire "it just does" concept (talk about handwaving) associated with Meson Technology has never sat right with me, and I've never used it IMTU.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;So the above question, along with several different takes on Starship Combat and weaponry on the web, got me to wondering about just _what_ technologies (whether canon or not) folks use or don't use.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Illuminate me :)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR><P ALIGN=CENTER>"When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God Almighty have mercy on you!" 
<BR><P ALIGN=LEFT>
<BR>Legion of the Damned
<BR>Sven Hassel &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></P></P></FONT></HTML>

--part1_12b.105c4b92.29fad1cc_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 10:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Apr 26 09:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise (With my Jump Durat ion rules reiterated)
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8B@KARPAD01>
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8B@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <m3d6wmv36q.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> Downsides to my interpretation?  None that I can think of.

I like it in many ways, but it does means that a certain element of
adventure is removed.  That is, imagine that the Flying Wallenda is
fleeing Glisten with a jump-capable patrol boat just behind.  The
Wallenda makes it to 100D and jumps.  The patrol boat--knowing where
the Wallenda is jumping--makes the same jump, and they come out of
J-space at the same time.

Whereas in the traditional interpretation, they come out several hours
apart from one another in the average case.  Which is not a bad thing
for the Wallenda.

-- 
<+>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 10:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Apr 26 09:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
In-Reply-To: <F257P5o7P6umLrXWq0G0000075e@hotmail.com>
References: <F257P5o7P6umLrXWq0G0000075e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m38z7av321.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>      Flexiable Batteries

Brilliant!  I love it.  This should become part of canon, methinks.

-- 
<+>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 10:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 09:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019839692.4851.ajackson@ping>

Frank Pitt writes:
> 
> Oh, I don't know. If I was "in the field" I would be more
> concerned about my personal survival than the rest of the unit,
> and if the others were smokers that makes them bigger targets
> than I, presumably increasing my chances of survival!

Nah.  Increasing your chances of becoming collateral damage of shooting at
them.
> 
> I always remember the surprise I got when it was demonstratd to
> me that a person taking even a clandestine puff on a
> hand-shielded cigarette can be seen from over 2kms with the naked
> eye in the dark. The flare of a lit match is even more visible.

Interesting.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 11:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 10:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <3CC988C2.7060505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Frank Pitt wrote:

> Oh, I don't know. If I was "in the field" I would be more
> concerned about my personal survival than the rest of the unit,
> and if the others were smokers that makes them bigger targets
> than I, presumably increasing my chances of survival!
> <grin>

Only if the other side are snipers and not arty, or air support.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 11:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Apr 26 10:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
Message-ID: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>

> From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:20:51 -0500
> Subject: [TML] second verse same as the first Chameleon
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>
> --Message-Boundary-8302
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-disposition: inline
> Content-description: Attachment information.
>
> The following section of this message contains a file attachment

Shadowcat,

Please stop sending attachements. It fucks up the digest. If the file
you are sending is plain text the easiest way for it to be viewable
by all is to "copy all" from the source file and "paste" into the body 
of the email. If your source file is a binary it shouldn't be sent to
the mailing list at all.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 12:14:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 26 11:14:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEJGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
>entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
>take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
>have to be present at the trial *there*.

That's why we have class actions and contingency fee arrangements.  Whoever
gets misidentified first, please call me.  I'm pretty well connected to both
the police abuse and class action bars.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 12:36:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Fri Apr 26 11:36:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
In-Reply-To: <20020426125234.A14613@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204262034490.309178-100000@svati>

On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

>Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>> How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy
>> stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other
>> supplies and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require
>> PRECISE enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the
>> constant risk of possible allergens from all those plants wafting
>> their way through the ventilation system...
>
>Oy!  Stop giving my GM nasty ideas!

No, no Mr. Whipsnade! Don't listen to Tim, hsi GM likes the nasty
ideas :-)

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 12:40:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr 26 11:40:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
In-Reply-To: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEINDMAA.tml@downport.com>

He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't even know
it was happening. To fix the problem we are posting his ships on a web site
and he will just post the URL. If he can get GTS and Pegasus both to
cooperated, he may post plain text in the body of his messages. Here is the
URL again:

http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd

More GT ships and a load of High Guard designs are uploading... oop, done!
_____________________________________________
The Traveller Web Portal
http://www.downport.com
webmaster@downport.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of David Shayne
> Shadowcat,
>
> Please stop sending attachements.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 13:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Fri Apr 26 12:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
Message-ID: <l03010d02b8ef54d1ed86@[206.224.92.67]>

Two items I thought the folks here might be interested in:

The GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set:

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/anniversaryset/

And the 25th anniversary limited edition hardback: Only one press run,
limited to pre-orders. The cover is black bonded leather, foil stamped with
the Traveller 25th-anniversary seal. A special full-color art page is bound
into the front with the signatures.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/core/

You can make reservations for the hardback for the three weeks prior to its
release, contact orders@sjgames.com for details and an estimated date of
publication.



Loren Wiseman
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/
     SJ Games
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 13:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Apr 26 12:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
References: <20020426190109.0A0CC279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC9A9F9.B79CECC2@ameritech.net>




> From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>

> Subject: RE: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
> Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:38:25 -0400
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't even know
> it was happening. To fix the problem we are posting his ships on a web site
> and he will just post the URL. 

An admirable solution.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 14:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 26 13:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1019852076.0.55530000@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Frankie posted:
>
> Deciding this could keep the US legislators busy for many months.
>
> What a great idea this is, they could then start funding
> hospitals with a tax on hospital dramas, and police forces with a
> tax on police shows, and prisons with a tax on the Sopranos, and
> mental institutions with a tax on "Fraser" (or perhaps any sitcom
> for that matter, and those reality TV shows to boot).

Personally, I'd like to see our wonderfully competent and effective Congress have their salaries tied to taxes received from their episodes on C-SPAN.

The thought of them having to come up with ways to capture and hold the common person's interest in Congressional legislative activities that Congress really doesn't want general oversight on tickles me to no end.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 15:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 14:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
In-Reply-To: <l03010d02b8ef54d1ed86@[206.224.92.67]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426145538.009eabf0@mindspring.com>

At 02:07 PM 4/26/02 -0500, you wrote:
>The GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set:
>
>http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/anniversaryset/
>
>And the 25th anniversary limited edition hardback: Only one press run,
>limited to pre-orders. The cover is black bonded leather, foil stamped with
>the Traveller 25th-anniversary seal. A special full-color art page is bound
>into the front with the signatures.

Argh.  You would put this out two weeks after I go on disability.

Anyway, trying to justify buying three products I already own to my wife 
would result in temperatures similar to those found on Pluto.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 16:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 15:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEINDMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426150540.009fcec0@mindspring.com>

At 02:38 PM 4/26/02 -0400, you wrote:
>He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't even know
>it was happening. To fix the problem we are posting his ships on a web site
>and he will just post the URL. If he can get GTS and Pegasus both to
>cooperated, he may post plain text in the body of his messages. Here is the
>URL again:
>
>http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd
>
>More GT ships and a load of High Guard designs are uploading... oop, done!

Very nice!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 16:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 15:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
References: <l03010d02b8ef54d1ed86@[206.224.92.67]>
Message-ID: <3CC9DB27.6010501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Loren Wiseman wrote:

> http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/core/

Am I the only one here who went 'All RIGHT! A Core sourcebook!' only to 
be dissapointed?

(I mean the leather-bound 25th anniversary one was the first Kewl thing, 
right?)

No offense Loren, but for a moment, I thought 'The richest, most 
powerful worlds in the Imperium...it's very *heart* ... what a place!'

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 17:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 16:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426145538.009eabf0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC9DCEE.8BAC6647@mindspring.com>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 02:07 PM 4/26/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >The GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set:
> >
> >http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/anniversaryset/
> >
> >And the 25th anniversary limited edition hardback: Only one press run,
> >limited to pre-orders. The cover is black bonded leather, foil stamped with
> >the Traveller 25th-anniversary seal. A special full-color art page is bound
> >into the front with the signatures.
>
> Argh.  You would put this out two weeks after I go on disability.
>
> Anyway, trying to justify buying three products I already own to my wife
> would result in temperatures similar to those found on Pluto.
>
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Don't justify, rationalize. If that doesn't work swoon a little, then make her
go whoo-whoo. Works like a charm. ;)


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 26 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Message-ID: <16f.cbfbaed.29fb394e@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>>     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>> only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
>> goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
officer."
>
>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
TOS.

Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 18:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 26 17:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEINDMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <3CCA95A1.17493.79C160@localhost>

On 26 Apr 2002 at 14:38, Swordy wrote:

> He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't
> even know it was happening. 

Interesting. I use Pegasus and haven't had any complaints about that 
sort of thing. I found it really easy to turn off all the non 7-bit 
ASCII stuff.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 18:54:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri Apr 26 17:54:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Bruce Johnson writes:
>Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here,
>comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.
>
>You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via
>your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of
>false positives and false negatives.
>
>That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously,
>which means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched
>erroneously.

OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics, so
please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the odds
that the system will think I am? And if I am in the database, what are the
odds that the system will fail to recognize me?



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 19:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri Apr 26 18:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20020426070904.349CA27AFF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270302500.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Matthew Bond writes:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>
>>That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
>>emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.
>
>And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that IMTU
>while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
>calculable duration.

Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_ TU,
but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the OTU.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 19:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri Apr 26 18:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
References: <20020425052154.B00C227A9C@mail.travellercentral.com> <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC9FD69.B9D10187@premier.net>


David Smart wrote:
> 
> Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> very, very large capital ships?
> 
> I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
> spinal mounts.
> 
> I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
> sharing.
> 
> By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
> TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

I forwarded copies of three TL-15 battleships to David Smart. 
_Montana_, a 500,000 dton NPAW-armed ship; _Jean Bart_, a meson-armed
variant of _Montana_; and _Shiva_, a 1,000,000 dton NPAW-armed
behemoth.  All of these ships have been posted to the TML in the past.

Now, does anyone want me to repost them to the list?  Alternately, does
anyone simply want a copy sent to them?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 19:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 26 18:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020427114011.A16950@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics,
> so please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the
> odds that the system will think I am?

That depends upon the threshold they set, the lighting conditions, the
degree of similarity you have to the closest people in the database,
what you're wearing around your head and/or face, whether you've got a
cold (or whether the people in the database had one!), and many other
factors.  Then add in the probability that your image is in the
database by mistake.

You could think of 4% as being the *minimum* chance you'll be
misidentified as a miscreant.


> And if I am in the database, what are the odds that the system will
> fail to recognize me?

See all of the above, and add in whether you're actually trying to
avoid detection.  If it's raining, water on the face is probably an
excellent way to throw off feature detection; most contour-detection
systems respond *very* badly to having numerous glints in the salient
regions.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 21:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 20:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
In-Reply-To: <3CC9DCEE.8BAC6647@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426145538.009eabf0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426200839.009f7940@mindspring.com>

At 07:04 PM 4/26/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Don't justify, rationalize. If that doesn't work swoon a little, then make her
>go whoo-whoo. Works like a charm. ;)

Remember that I'm currently writing.. this means that our office is covered 
in piles of books, notes, and things labeled "Do not move this! Penalty is 
death or six hours of Dylan on the stereo! - The Genius"  The monitor has 
about three dozen cryptic Post-It notes with things like "D. Colhoun - 
stats? b-date?"  "Template for Flor." and "Rewrite K, L and M" (which is 
amusing when asked me why I was re-writing three Muni Metro lines.. )Also, 
her time on the computer is being interrupted by me racing in from  other 
rooms shouting "Start Word!  Move!  Must write sidebar!"  (Most of the time 
I get these bursts of inspiration in the shower...)

In short, her tolerance of GURPS, Traveller, and me are at low points right 
now.  :)

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                    - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 22:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr 26 21:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270302500.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <001d01c1eda0$cf53a400$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 2:11 AM
Subject: [TML] Re: Assumptions in Piracy Exercise


> Matthew Bond writes:
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> >
> >>That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
> >>emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.
> >
> >And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that
IMTU
> >while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
> >calculable duration.
>
> Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
> from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_ TU,
> but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the OTU.

Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump Duration
is unknowable until immediately prior to exit. And remember that DGP is not
Official Canon.

I can find no such reference in the books I find close to hand: Bk2, Bk5,
Gurps:Traveller... only a reference to the fact that jumps take respectively
1 week, 150-175 hours, and 168 hours +/- 0 to 10%...

And indeed, IMTU Jump duration is variable around 1 week. So show me where I
contradict canon. Just because my *interpretation* of the canon does not
coincide with yours does not necessarily mean that mine is any less valid,
even if many others share your view.

And in any case, the OTU explicitly includes piracy so surely any
interpretation of canon that aids in the existence of piracy must therefore
be welcomed with open arms under your apparent criteria for valid
discussion.

And If it transpires there is an explicit canon dictum that invalidates my
interpretation, then I offer my most profuse apologies for sullying the
value of this debate to you as a result of my asking how piracy could be
eradicated in my apparently perverse aberration of a traveller universe. I
will then henceforth only regale the list with verbatim quotation of
scripture^H^H^H^H canon no matter how internally inconsistent it may be! The
Gospel according to the Saint Marc is the very Word of God revealed to us
and I shall blaspheme no more...

Or not.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 22:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 21:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b8ee2476727f@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20426.212105.4Q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 2:35 PM -0400 4/25/02, Mark Urbin wrote:
>>Follow it with a 1% tax on art books, art supplies, and the sale of 
>>art (records, tapes, movie tickets, paintings, etc.) to fund federal 
>>art projects.
>
> I'm not sure these sort of things are such a bad idea.  It would tie 
> the projects in better with their constituencies.  For example, the 
> SF tax would give NASA funding from a source that puts a priority on 
> its activities and give those who are interested in space research 
> more results.  (And people are more tolerant of taxes that go to 
> specific things they support).

And just *how* long do you think it'd be before the money was diverted
to pet projects of influential Congress critters?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 23:01:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 22:01:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20426.212031.6T4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
>> plan
>> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
>> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
>> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
>> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
>> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
>> to "space,
>> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
>
> Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want to help make
> those dreams come true.

Then why is the money going to NASA?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 00:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 23:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <20020426080850.A14241@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20426.224425.6p0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Actually, it's the method ised by floppy *and* hard disk controllers
>> for just about everything. GCR and all the rest of that was only used
>> by Apple and Commodore.
>
> Yes, and wasn't even used in the Commodore Amiga.  It *could* read and
> write GCR, but at single density.  (The GCR encoding method looks
> better on paper, 4 bits out of 5, but is inherently lower-density for
> a given magnetic coercivity of medium.)
>
>
>> No, at the *hardware* level, it's still sectors and tracks.
>
> Not even that: at the *hardware* level, it's a sequence of magnetic
> polarity changes.  Software (or firmware) groups them into sectors and
> tracks.  The Amiga didn't have a firmware sector decoder; it read
> tracks in as '0' for no polarity change at the appropriate time, and
> '1' if there was.  The MFM decoding, sector recognition, and error
> checking was done in software -- by the CPU normally, but I wrote a
> driver that used the "Agnes" GPU instead.

Well, the FM/MFM decoding is part of the FDC *chip* ever since the WD
1771 chip in 1977.

>> *If* Commodore had used FM and MFM encoding on the disks, rather than
>> GCR (basicly a different way of modulating the signal that represents
>> the bitstream on the media), then all it'd take to read a C-64 disk on
>> a PC would be some fancy software. 
>
> As it is, most modern FDD controllers have MFM decoding and sector
> recognition in firmware or hardware, so you can't do GCR reading
> without changing chips.  However: there are software tricks by which
> you can read *most* low-density GCR in an MFM drive (as in recover 90%
> or so of the bits) so long as the drive hardware isn't too "smart" and
> refuses to read what it thinks is a damaged sector.  Lower-density GCR
> comes out with a predictable pattern of bits after MFM 'decoding'.
> The only problem is loss of synchronization in low-quality drives.

Well, as I noted, I have an old CopyIIPC option board. It goes between
the drive and the FDC board.

> I believe the Mac uses variable-speed drive hardware as well as GCR,
> so this trick won't work with Mac disks.  (At least, they did 10 years
> ago when I last played around with these things!)

Well, as I recall, the CopyIIPC board can read Macs somehow.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 03:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Apr 27 02:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk> <20020427114011.A16950@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <003601c1edd1$23d16dc0$3d9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


>
> See all of the above, and add in whether you're actually trying to
> avoid detection.  If it's raining, water on the face is probably an
> excellent way to throw off feature detection; most contour-detection
> systems respond *very* badly to having numerous glints in the salient
> regions.
>

The way a person moves is as distinctive as a fingerprint. Visual systems
exist that can identify a person by their biomechanics, with about the same
failure rate.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 04:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr 27 03:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <003601c1edd1$23d16dc0$3d9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk> <20020427114011.A16950@freeman.little-possums.net> <003601c1edd1$23d16dc0$3d9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020427203514.D17780@freeman.little-possums.net>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> The way a person moves is as distinctive as a fingerprint. Visual
> systems exist that can identify a person by their biomechanics, with
> about the same failure rate.

It seems much progress has been made in the last year or so, then.
The most recent time I looked at them, they required sensors or
reflectors to be attached at defined positions on the body for any
reasonable rate of success at all.  Has that requirement been
eliminated?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 05:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 04:12:02 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
Message-ID: <d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163@aol.com>

--part1_d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 4/26/02 11:16:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gridlore@mindspring.com writes:


> At 10:49 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry 
> > (copyright 1968)
> >
> >     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
> > only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
> > goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
> > Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
> officer."
> 
> An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
> TOS.
> 
> Of course, it goes along nicely with ST's socialist view.. in the Soviet 
> military all the technical jobs were held by officers.
> 
> 

I disagree that the use of the titles "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS implies 
that there were enlisted personnel on the Constitution class starships of 
that era. Roddenberry said in the book cited earlier that there were no 
enlisted onboard the ENTERPRISE. The references to "yeoman" and "chief" 
probably meant the jobs they held aboard the ENTERPRISE rather than their 
actual rank. 

Let us not forget that in the context of TOS we are talking about 
approximately I believe 12 to 13 ships with crews between 200 to 430 
personnel, upward to 5,000 + personnel out of an organization that was 
staffing assumedly a fleet of support ships and a dozen or more full service 
bases, and according to one TOS episode up to 1,000 outposts and/or space 
stations. As pointed out earlier, the ENTERPRISE and her sister ships were 
supposed to be the elite of the elite. I do not find it unbelievable that we 
would have strictly "commissioned officers" staff such vessels under those 
conditions. Lets look at Chief O'Brien too, he did not become and official 
enlisted man until he stepped down from his vaulted position on the 
ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on Deep Space Nine. Now admittedly there is 
nothing canon saying that a person can move between so-called enlisted 
positions and commissioned officers positions during their career (although 
it even happens in real life - I new a guy in Korea that was a captain in the 
army reserve, went active as noncommissioned officer) but if only the best 
are crewing the starships, then maybe a person in the enlighted 24th century 
Starfleet could have the extra prestige of being "commissioned" when in space 
but "enlisted" when assigned to mundane duties station or planet side. 

Who knows? I certainly do not, but I resist the natural tendency to 
automatically assume that Starfleet is a 19th/20th century military 
bureaucracy and not a fluid, enlightened civil service organization that 
celebrates diversity and individual accomplishment. 


Bob Range
"The Human Adventure is just beginning." Gene Roddenberry, 1979

--part1_d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 4/26/02 11:16:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gridlore@mindspring.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">At 10:49 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
<BR>&gt; From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield &amp; Gene Roddenberry 
<BR>&gt; (copyright 1968)
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
<BR>&gt; only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
<BR>&gt; goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
<BR>&gt; Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer."
<BR>
<BR>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS.
<BR>
<BR>Of course, it goes along nicely with ST's socialist view.. in the Soviet 
<BR>military all the technical jobs were held by officers.
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>I disagree that the use of the titles "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS implies that there were enlisted personnel on the Constitution class starships of that era. Roddenberry said in the book cited earlier that there were no enlisted onboard the ENTERPRISE. The references to "yeoman" and "chief" probably meant the jobs they held aboard the ENTERPRISE rather than their actual rank. 
<BR>
<BR>Let us not forget that in the context of TOS we are talking about approximately I believe 12 to 13 ships with crews between 200 to 430 personnel, upward to 5,000 + personnel out of an organization that was staffing assumedly a fleet of support ships and a dozen or more full service bases, and according to one TOS episode up to 1,000 outposts and/or space stations. As pointed out earlier, the ENTERPRISE and her sister ships were supposed to be the elite of the elite. I do not find it unbelievable that we would have strictly "commissioned officers" staff such vessels under those conditions. Lets look at Chief O'Brien too, he did not become and official enlisted man until he stepped down from his vaulted position on the ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on Deep Space Nine. Now admittedly there is nothing canon saying that a person can move between so-called enlisted positions and commissioned officers positions during their career (although it even happens in real life - I new a guy in Korea that was a captain in the army reserve, went active as noncommissioned officer) but if only the best are crewing the starships, then maybe a person in the enlighted 24th century Starfleet could have the extra prestige of being "commissioned" when in space but "enlisted" when assigned to mundane duties station or planet side. 
<BR>
<BR>Who knows? I certainly do not, but I resist the natural tendency to automatically assume that Starfleet is a 19th/20th century military bureaucracy and not a fluid, enlightened civil service organization that celebrates diversity and individual accomplishment. 
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Brush Script" LANG="0"><I>Bob Range</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="BernhardFashion BT" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Brush Script" LANG="0">"The Human Adventure is just beginning." Gene Roddenberry, 1979</I></FONT></HTML>

--part1_d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 05:15:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat Apr 27 04:15:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest (yes, just the digest!)
In-Reply-To: <20020425183523.109AF27990@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c1eddc$a474f180$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

The digest is back to not doing anything to MIME'd messages. I've noticed a
few coming through with all the HTML in it, but recently a couple of
messages have come through with attachments encoded so comprehensively that
the message is incomprehensible.

As an example, here's a message from Shadowcat that I've just come across
from in the digest...

> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #443 - 23 msgs
<Snip>
> Message: 18
> From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:12:24 -0500
> Subject: [TML] whoops, heres the ship
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> Content-description: Mail message body
>
>
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-disposition: inline
> Content-description: Attachment information.
>
> The following section of this message contains a file attachment
> prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
> If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system,
> you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
>
>    ---- File information -----------
>      File:  TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class Commerce Raider.htm
>      Date:  20 Mar 2001, 21:38
>      Size:  4748 bytes.
>      Type:  HTML-text
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736
> Content-type: Text/HTML; name="TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class
> Commerce Raider.htm"
> Content-disposition: attachment; filename="TL12 800-ton
> Chameleon-class Commerce Raider.htm"
> Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64
>
> PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcm
> Fuc2l0aW9u

<Snipped lots of BASE64 encoded stuff>

> eXJpZ2h0IKkgMjAwMCBieSBDVCBDb252ZXJzaW9uDQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo=
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736--
>

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi                      AndyLong@BigPond.com
 United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
                                +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 05:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat Apr 27 04:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Missed digest No. 438
Message-ID: <000701c1eddf$23468a80$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

Could some friendly soul please send me a copy of digest number 438?

Thanks in advance, Andy

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi                      AndyLong@BigPond.com	   	
 United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
                                +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260858570.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <3CCA8AF0.23335.3C507B0@localhost>

<snip>
>  Policing the area is a problem for cig smokers. The cigar smokers I knew
> would save the stub. Don'T remember the correct word. I smoked a pipe and
> all I needed to do was spead and cover the ash.

The word for the remains at the bottom of the pipe is "dottle".

Sinbad Sam
Former Pipe Smoker

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 10:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <b9.1fb0d3cc.29fc3384@aol.com>

John Groth writes:

>I forwarded copies of three TL-15 battleships to David Smart. 
>_Montana_, a 500,000 dton NPAW-armed ship; _Jean Bart_, a meson-armed
>variant of _Montana_; and _Shiva_, a 1,000,000 dton NPAW-armed
>behemoth.  All of these ships have been posted to the TML in the past.
>
>Now, does anyone want me to repost them to the list?  Alternately, does
>anyone simply want a copy sent to them?

And disrupt the TML's carefully smothered signal-to-noise ratio? Are you Mad?

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 14:24:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 27 13:24:06 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/27/02 4:11 AM, Olegamer@aol.com at Olegamer@aol.com wrote:
(Note:  I had to de-style this text, so quoting is ugly.  Please use plain
text on this list)


<quote>
I disagree that the use of the titles "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS implies
that there were enlisted personnel on the Constitution class starships of
that era. Roddenberry said in the book cited earlier that there were no
enlisted onboard the ENTERPRISE. The references to "yeoman" and "chief"
probably meant the jobs they held aboard the ENTERPRISE rather than their
actual rank. 
</quote>

I think that is should be remembered that Roddenberry came out of
commercial aviation IIRC.  An airliner, or a modern spacecraft is a very
different beast than a long duration exploration and paramilitary craft.
The 'enlisted' part of the crews in each essentially stay on the ground
while the officer pilots operate the vessel on short term flights.

I think RAH got it right when he used his own naval background is laying out
the crew structure of a star ship.  It more correctly reflects the type of
personnel and their duties aboard ship.

One also has to consider that Hollywood is a very different place.  Their
understanding of 'rank' is pretty detached from the real world.  After all,
while a directory may 'command' a TV program or movie, a 'star' can derail
to whole process if he or she doesn't get what they want.  So there's a
built in fiction that everybody is equally important and necessary, and that
no one is really above someone else (excluding extras, of course, who aren't
really people anyway)

<quote>
Let us not forget that in the context of TOS we are talking about
approximately I believe 12 to 13 ships with crews between 200 to 430
personnel, upward to 5,000 + personnel out of an organization that was
staffing assumedly a fleet of support ships and a dozen or more full service
bases, and according to one TOS episode up to 1,000 outposts and/or space
stations. As pointed out earlier, the ENTERPRISE and her sister ships were
supposed to be the elite of the elite.
</quote>

Why is this germane?  The SAS, Delta Force and other military elite units
are the creme de la creme of their respective armies.  They still reflect
the same rank structure as the military at large.  True, there are no
privates, but the enlisted still make up the majority of these units and do
the actual real work.

I think that al lot of this confusions is caused by most civilians view NCOs
and enlisted as 'not as good as' officers.  They don't understand the
difference between the two and their roles. Civilians, when they picture
themselves in uniform, almost invariably see themselves as officers.  The
truth is that many wouldn't like it.  My own experience is that as an
officer, you miss out on a lot of the 'fun'.  You are now an planner,
administrator and manager once you get past the lowest ranks.  The Buck
sergeants, corporals and specialists get to do all the fun stuff like shoot
the machine guns, pull the cannon lanyards and such  You never see Rambo or
those other elite commando types doing paperwork, writing evaluations and
all that crap.  Stuff I spent a lot of time doing after I was comissioned.

<quote>
I do not find it unbelievable that we would have strictly "commissioned
officers" staff such vessels under those conditions. Lets look at Chief
O'Brien too, he did not become and official enlisted man until he stepped
down from his vaulted position on the ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on
Deep Space Nine. 
</quote>

Again, I think this show a misunderstanding of what officers actually do in
the service (The exception being pilots, although the Army has Warrant
Officers for that.)  And I recall at least on episode of TNG, "Drumhead"
that involved the court martial of an enlisted crewman of the Enterprise, so
there must be some enlisted.

<quote>
Now admittedly there is nothing canon saying that a person can move between
so-called enlisted positions and commissioned officers positions during
their career (although it even happens in real life - I new a guy in Korea
that was a captain in the army reserve, went active as noncommissioned
officer) 
</quote>

This has to do with how long the person had been inactive.  When I was in
the 104th TNG, we has a lot of Drill Sergeants who were former officers
during Vietnam who got back into the reserves to earn those pensions.

<quote>
but if only the best are crewing the starships, then maybe a person in the
enlighted 24th century Starfleet could have the extra prestige of being
"commissioned" when in space but "enlisted" when assigned to mundane duties
station or planet side.
</quote>

See my comments about elite above.  Why do civilians view officers as being
'better' than enlisted.  They're not.  They just are different.  Someone has
to do the planning, paperwork and administration.  Somebody also has to do
the actual work.  

<quote>
Who knows? I certainly do not, but I resist the natural tendency to
automatically assume that Starfleet is a 19th/20th century military
bureaucracy and not a fluid, enlightened civil service organization that
celebrates diversity and individual accomplishment.
</quote>

I attempt not to gag.  Show me one single large organization that does not
have a rigidly defined hierarchy and still gets anything done.  Particularly
one that operates for long periods of time without interaction with society
at large.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 14:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Apr 27 13:49:02 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3r8l0j2cy.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
> And I recall at least on episode of TNG, "Drumhead" that involved
> the court martial of an enlisted crewman of the Enterprise, so there
> must be some enlisted.

Like so much else in ST, the existence of something as a plot device
in one episode does not mean that in exists at all in any other.  I
believe that the writers took Emerson's dictum a bit too seriously...

-- 
<+> Veni, vidi, vici
    Whinny, weedy, weaky
    Which sounds better?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 15:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Apr 27 14:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <b9.1fb0d3cc.29fc3384@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCENNGNAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Don't you mean noise to signal ration????


jml

And disrupt the TML's carefully smothered signal-to-noise ratio? Are you
Mad?

GC
_______________________________________________
T


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 15:45:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat Apr 27 14:45:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3CCB1CC6.60408@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
>>Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here,
>>comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.
>>
>>You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via
>>your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of
>>false positives and false negatives.
>>
>>That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously,
>>which means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched
>>erroneously.
> 
> 
> OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics, so
> please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the odds
> that the system will think I am? And if I am in the database, what are the
> odds that the system will fail to recognize me?

Same odds, no matter what: 1 in 25.

Leonard posted these numbers earlier, but here goes.

Assumption: you have a population of 10000 people, who may or may not be 
part of a database of 50 bad guys. (0.5% of the population)

4% failure rate means that in 4% of the cases, software fails to 
discriminate properly. (they did not give separate false positive and 
false egative error rates)

If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
member.

10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
correctly ID'ed.

50 bad guys * 0.04 = 2 false negatives in 10,000 examinations. 48 
correctly ID'ed

The only way to decrease the number of innocent people accused is either 
to increase the accuracy or increase the criminal population :-/

Notice, this analysis cannot really show how many criminals you will 
catch, becasue we don't know the distribution of criminals in the 
scanned population.

The above analysis actually assumes that ALL of the criminals in the DB 
are present in the scanned population. You are still id'in nearly one 
innocent person for every criminal caught. 40 vs 48, and 2 got away!

If, as appears to be the case, criminals avoid areas where such 
surveillance occurs, then the ratio of innocent vs criminal ID's goes up.

This system goes into effect...the criminals learn quickly. Say 80% 
start avoiding this area.

That means you're down to 10 crooks in the population. Of these 0.2 will 
get through...it's hard to say, most of the time you'll catch 'em all.

Now you have a ratio of 40 innocents to 10 crooks, you're dealing with 4 
times the innocent population caught in your dragnet.

As you increase the surveillance population, *unless* you increase your 
database correspondingly, you will get fewer and fewer returns for your 
efforts.

If *everyone* is in the database, then you will reduce that ratio 
Innocent:Crook to the error rate of your system.

Alas, increasing that database is far too easy these days...many states 
are using digitized photgraphs on their drivers licenses. In the test 
case in Flroda, when they scanned everyone coming in to Tampa Stadium 
(for the superboowl? The Orange Bowl...some bowl game) they used, as 
their Database, the entire florida drivers license DB.

Instant Police State. Just add technology.

Bruce




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 17:24:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 16:24:10 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
Message-ID: <bc.25ad7503.29fc8cd1@aol.com>

In a message dated 27/04/02 21:28:01 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


Again, I think this show a misunderstanding of what officers actually do in
the service (The exception being pilots, although the Army has Warrant
Officers for that.)  And I recall at least on episode of TNG, "Drumhead"
that involved the court martial of an enlisted crewman of the Enterprise, so
there must be some enlisted.


A medical technician. Although this implies an enlisted man it is conceivable 
that medical technicians are officers in the ST universe.

Of course this doesn't mean that the whole ST approach to rank isn't a load 
of old dingoes kidneys.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 18:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 27 17:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3CCB1CC6.60408@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>> Bruce Johnson writes:
>> 
>>>Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here,
>>>comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.
>>>
>>>You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via
>>>your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of
>>>false positives and false negatives.
>>>
>>>That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously,
>>>which means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched
>>>erroneously.
>> 
>> 
>> OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics, so
>> please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the odds
>> that the system will think I am? And if I am in the database, what are the
>> odds that the system will fail to recognize me?
>
> Same odds, no matter what: 1 in 25.
>
> Leonard posted these numbers earlier, but here goes.
>
> Assumption: you have a population of 10000 people, who may or may not be 
> part of a database of 50 bad guys. (0.5% of the population)
>
> 4% failure rate means that in 4% of the cases, software fails to 
> discriminate properly. (they did not give separate false positive and 
> false egative error rates)
>
> If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
> are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
> member.
>
> 10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
> correctly ID'ed.

Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives. 

> 50 bad guys * 0.04 = 2 false negatives in 10,000 examinations. 48 
> correctly ID'ed

> The above analysis actually assumes that ALL of the criminals in the DB 
> are present in the scanned population. You are still id'in nearly one 
> innocent person for every criminal caught. 40 vs 48, and 2 got away!

No, you've IDed 8 1/3 innocent people for each criminal caught. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 18:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 17:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <20020427.170606.-112869.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

on 4/27/02 4:11 AM, Olegamer@aol.com at Olegamer@aol.com wrote:
<quote>
I do not find it unbelievable that we would have strictly "commissioned
officers" staff such vessels under those conditions. Lets look at Chief
O'Brien too, he did not become and official enlisted man until he stepped
down from his vaulted position on the ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on
Deep Space Nine. 
</quote>

Well, after a simple web search for startrek enterprise, then a scroll
down to O'Brien, I came up with his stats. It doesn't matter what Gene R.
intended, there were enlisted personnel onboard. See below.

   Miles O`Brien
Chief of Operations  

PERSONNEL FILE: O'Brien, Miles Edward
**Includes summary updates, addenda through SD 52999 (2375) 
Played By: Colm Meany
Rank: Chief petty officer, senior chief specialist
Current assignment: Professor of Engineering, Starfleet Academy;
previously, Chief of Operations, Deep Space Nine
Full Name: Miles Edward O'Brien
Year of birth: September, 2328
Place of birth: Killarney, Ireland, Earth
Parents: Mr. and Mrs. Michael O'Brien (mother died 2368; father remarried
2369)
Marital status: Married Keiko Ishikawa in 2367 in Ten-Forward, U.S.S.
Enterprise
Children: One daughter, Molly, born 2368; a son, Kirayoshi, born 2373
Quarters: Currently relocating to Earth from residence at Deep Space Nine
(several cities under consideration)
Security clearance: Level 1


Starfleet Career Summary 

2345 -- Enrolled in Starfleet Academy.

2346 -- Enlisted as a non-commissioned officer in Starfleet.

2347 -- As young crewman posted to NCC-57295 U.S.S. Rutledge under Capt.
Ben Maxwell, was decorated after clash with Cardassians on Setlik III and
re-assigned by Maxwell as a bridge tactical officer.

2364 -- After serving on two more ships in the last two years,
transferred to new U.S.S. Enterprise under Captain Jean-Luc Picard as
relief flight control officer in command duty division and later as
security in operations division.

2365 -- Re-assigned at chief petty officer rank to Enterprise transporter
chief, usually posted in Transporter Room 3.

2369 -- Accepted offer as chief of operations at Deep Space Nine, onetime
Cardassian mining station, under Cmdr. Ben Sisko.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 20:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Apr 27 19:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
Message-ID: <3CCB57F5.D59D4658@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>
>http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd
>
>>More GT ships and a load of High Guard designs are uploading... oop, >>done!

>Very nice!

Very nice indeed! And a GT version of my Zhilqatij class Strike Cruiser!
Now I feel honored...

"I would like to thank the members of the Academy..."

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: didn't get Digest No 438
Message-ID: <000b01c1ee60$b56ee7a0$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

I have now received copies of this digest. Thank you to all who sent them

Andy

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi                      AndyLong@BigPond.com	  	
 United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
                                +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
In-Reply-To: <20020427.170606.-112869.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c1ee61$8a7d2420$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Well, after a simple web search for startrek enterprise, then a scroll
> down to O'Brien, I came up with his stats. It doesn't matter what Gene R.
> intended, there were enlisted personnel onboard.  ...

And here I thought this was all common knowledge.

Roddenberry intended that all starfleet personel on the Enterprise were
"officers".  While this made no sense at all, this was the stated intention.
This applied through all of TOS and into TNG.

The best example of this was (appropriately enough), Miles O'Brien.

When Colm Meany's character was first introduced in TNG he was an officer
and wore the pips of a Lt on his collar.  This was consistent through the
first 2-3 seasons.

Later, when the post-Roddenberry powers decided to start fleshing out
the character, he was officially named and made enlisted.  (In one
particular episode, the one with Worf's human parents, he is specifically
identified as such.)  O'Brien was enlisted long before he ever transfered
to DS9.  Note that the character was never demoted in a story or
anything, the O'Brien's character was just retroactively "changed" to
have always been enlisted.

So, we are left with the situation that while Roddenberry intended for
only officers to serve aboard the Enterprise, the later powers (Berman?)
decided that the Enterprise should have enlisted personel after all, and
the change was made.

What this all has to do with Traveller, I dunno.  Sorry for wasting
everyone's time, and I am embarrassed to admit this much knowledge of
Star Trek, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:10:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:10:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020427111811.41F13279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Matthew Bond writes:
>From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>>Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
>>from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_ TU,
>>but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the OTU.
>
>Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump Duration
>is unknowable until immediately prior to exit.

It may or may not be known from the moment you enter jump, but it is
implicit in the game mechanic that fixes the jump duration by a single
random die roll that you can't figure it out until it is to late to abort
the jump. Otherwise ships would keep making the calculations (at 20
minutes a pop) until they found a solution that would take them to their
destination in less than the (so-called) average time of 7 days.

>I can find no such reference in the books I find close to hand: Bk2, Bk5,
>Gurps:Traveller... only a reference to the fact that jumps take respectively
>1 week, 150-175 hours, and 168 hours +/- 0 to 10%...

>And in any case, the OTU explicitly includes piracy so surely any
>interpretation of canon that aids in the existence of piracy must therefore
>be welcomed with open arms under your apparent criteria for valid
>discussion.

Of all the pirates that I can recall that the OTU explicitly includes,
none of them make a living preying on interplanetary craft[*]. Even if
your scheme turned out to be workable, it still wouldn't explain the
pirates that (according to the ship encounter tables and various
adventures) lie in wait for PCs when they jump into a system as close to
the mainworld as they can possibly get.

[*] Though I suppose the ones in the character generation tables may.


Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:47:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:47:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
In-Reply-To: <000a01c1ee61$8a7d2420$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEJLDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Then the whole thing with the yeoman and the captain had nothing to do with
officer/enlisted fraternization? Blows _my_ mind.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mike West
>
> And here I thought this was all common knowledge.
>
> Roddenberry intended that all starfleet personel on the Enterprise were
> "officers".  While this made no sense at all, this was the stated
> intention.
> This applied through all of TOS and into TNG.
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 22:08:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr 27 21:08:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Canon and Jump Duration (was Re: Piracy assumptions)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <000e01c1ee6a$4f48ce00$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 4:09 AM
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions


> Matthew Bond writes:
> >From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
> >
> >>Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
> >>from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_
TU,
> >>but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the
OTU.
> >
> >Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump
Duration
> >is unknowable until immediately prior to exit.
>
> It may or may not be known from the moment you enter jump, but it is
> implicit in the game mechanic that fixes the jump duration by a single
> random die roll that you can't figure it out until it is to late to abort
> the jump. Otherwise ships would keep making the calculations (at 20
> minutes a pop) until they found a solution that would take them to their
> destination in less than the (so-called) average time of 7 days.

Hence my stating that the roll applies to any jump from point A to Point B
within the next few hours. Astrogation-0 IMTU gives exactly the same result
(Jump Duration unknown until committed to Jump). Astrogation-1 lets the
astrogator see the resulting duration prior to final commitment to jump.
Astrogation 2+ allows the astrogator to calculate jump duration for jumps in
the subsequent (Astrogation Skill)-1 Jump 'windows', where each window
encompasses a few hours.

How about you removing your CanonVision(TM) Blinkers and considering this
variation on Jump Duration and Astrogation on its own merits. Does it
'break' canon? Not particularly IMHO. Does it enhance canon? Well, it
certainly allows Fleets to arrive together... and makes Skilled Astrogators
worth having... both of which I feel are useful.

You seem to feel that being able to calculate a jump duration is
'uncanonical', where all that I can find in canon is that the duration
varies at approximately a week +- 10% or so. Canon doesn't (in the reference
I have to hand anyway) make any comment other than this. It doesn't
explicitly say that two ships jumping from point A to Point B at the same
time make different rolls. Most people seem to assume that this is implied,
but I would simply say that the rules are assuming the players are on a
single ship and are only concerned with their own particular Jump Duration.

If I as GM choose to apply this same time to all ships jumping between the
same two points within a similar timeframe, I am free to do so. I could even
state that a jump between two given systems ALWAYS takes the same time, and
the roll is just to determine this time the first time the players jump
between those two systems. Or I could say that all jumps have random
durations all the time (as you and many others feel is the case). All three
of these options is just as valid in canon, as all canon states is that not
all Jumps take the same time, and that the variation is within set limits
around one week.

Now if you want to persist in deriding me for being 'uncanonical' please
direct me to a valid reference that invalidates my assumptions. It may be
that it is in some supplement or magazine article I do not possess. But just
because it is different to the way you have always done things doesn't
necessarily make it uncanonical, if it covers an aspect of Traveller that is
not explicitly covered by canon.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 22:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Kim)
Date: Sat Apr 27 21:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>
References: <20020424063707.194DD27A34@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <p0510150db8f1258b9cb4@[10.0.1.10]>

At 6:54 AM -0500 4/24/02, David Smart wrote:

>An interesting sidenote for Traveller is the experience on one of the
>many
>Apollo flights. Apollo 8, I think. 'Twould seem one of the astronauts
>had
>a bout with some food that didn't agree with him. It hit when they had
>been
>in orbit preparatory to leaving for the moon. No one informed Mission
>Control and they were told to proceed (lose out on going to the moon
>'cause
>of the trots? As if!).

	Frank Borman, the commander of Apollo 8 was violently sick 
early in the mission.  Started throwing up and in the midst of 
retching had massive diarrhea.  Apparently, the cleanup was rather 
unpleasant :).  A big blob of vomit hit Jim Lovell in the chest.

	Borman didn't want to announce to the world over the open 
loop that he had been ill, so they recorded a message on tape that 
got dumped with the spacecraft telemetry.  After the tape had been 
listened to, there was serious discussion of canceling the mission. 
The surgeons were worried that whatever Borman had might be passed to 
the rest of the crew.

	In the end, it was decided to let the mission go through. 
Borman was feeling much better and it was too late to use the Service 
Module's engine to do a direct abort.  No matter what, Apollo 8 was 
going to go around the moon anyway so they might as well wait see how 
everyone was feeling when they went into orbit

	There's a good telling of this event in Chaikin's _A_Man_On_the_Moon_.

Space Nut Justin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 03:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeffrey Malone)
Date: Sun Apr 28 02:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Sickness and the Political Control of Information
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk> <000e01c1ee6a$4f48ce00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <001301c1ee93$5bbcfd40$4e7354d2@1338700057>

Followers of the TNS may have noted that the story of Jeffrey Long, ace
reporter revealing the truth (?) of Jump Sickness, has appeared in the G:T
timeline.  I have always been of the view that Jump Sickness is probably
more political than physiological in origin.  The reason?  The time edge
that control of a J-6 information network (versus a J-4 or less general
information network for Joe Public) gives any large interstellar state.
Noting that mis-jump may cause an effective jump well beyond J-6 (up to J-30
or J-36, IIRC, depending on rule set), I would wonder whether the average
duration of Jump Sickness is up to the 36 week timeframe.  Requiring the
absolute quarantine of the poor vicitms, I suspect.

The bottom line:  Jump Sickness has more to do with protecting the Imperial
body politic from destabilising uncontrolled information flows, than its
alleged victims.

Comments?

J.M. Malone


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 05:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 28 04:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <146.da76e8b.29fd3d17@aol.com>

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In a message dated 4/27/02 11:10:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mjwest@caddocourt.com writes:


> What this all has to do with Traveller, I dunno.  Sorry for wasting
> everyone's time, and I am embarrassed to admit this much knowledge of
> Star Trek, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.
> 
> Mike West
> 
> 

Thank you Mr. West for imputting your 2 credits, I for one enjoyed the 
clarification. 

Bob Range
aka Olegamer

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/27/02 11:10:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mjwest@caddocourt.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">What this all has to do with Traveller, I dunno. &nbsp;Sorry for wasting
<BR>everyone's time, and I am embarrassed to admit this much knowledge of
<BR>Star Trek, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.
<BR>
<BR>Mike West
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Thank you Mr. West for imputting your 2 credits, I for one enjoyed the clarification. 
<BR>
<BR>Bob Range
<BR>aka Olegamer</FONT></HTML>

--part1_146.da76e8b.29fd3d17_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 09:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 28 08:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
Message-ID: <200204281505.FEN01862@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Justin Kim <jlkim@mail.com>  
>After the tape had been listened to, there was serious 
>discussion of canceling the mission. 
>The surgeons were worried that whatever Borman had might be 
>passed to the rest of the crew.
>

The Intergalactic Laxative will get you from here to Mars....
________________
NO! Sentence first, verdict after!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 09:18:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Apr 28 08:18:12 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020428151458.60631.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

I think that al lot of this confusions is caused by
> most civilians view NCOs
> and enlisted as 'not as good as' officers.  They
> don't understand the
> difference between the two and their roles.
> Civilians, when they picture
> themselves in uniform, almost invariably see
> themselves as officers.
Well, this is just my two cents. Officers enjoy more
luxuries than enlisted men and are seen as less
expendable. C'mon , they get paid better get better
jobs and benefits,just better every thing from
uniforms to housing. The requirements are harder too. 
It's no wonder people think this.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 09:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 28 08:42:02 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <20020428151458.60631.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8F16629.58CB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/28/02 8:14 AM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> Well, this is just my two cents. Officers enjoy more
> luxuries than enlisted men and are seen as less
> expendable. C'mon , they get paid better get better
> jobs and benefits,just better every thing from
> uniforms to housing. The requirements are harder too.
> It's no wonder people think this.

I suppose so.  Just for the record, officers pay for their own uniforms and
meals. 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 11:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 10:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
>>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
>>member.
>>
>>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
>>correctly ID'ed.
> 
> 
> Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives. 

Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...

IAC, this only makes my later analysis much worse.

("Oh, waiter! We asked for an order of magnitude here!")

Bruce



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 11:53:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Apr 28 10:53:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Big Brother


> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> >>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you
> >>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a
> >>member.
> >>
> >>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960
> >>correctly ID'ed.
> >
> >
> > Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives.
>
> Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...
>
> IAC, this only makes my later analysis much worse.

Ok, this takes into account any given analysis... so what happens when the
system analyses several frames of the CCTV footage... The chances of the
same Innocent person being repeatedly misidentified as being in the database
surely falls, and similarly the chance of correctly identifying a criminal
as being in the database rises.

If the threshold for flagging a particular person as being worth further
investigation (and I would expect that the first level of investigation is
simply to get a human operator to look at the screen and compare the image
with that in the database...) is set to be say 7+ positives out of 10 frames
analysed, then the system can filter out many of the false positives and
false negatives before raising it to a higher level of investigation.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 12:01:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Sun Apr 28 11:01:08 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <200204281505.FEN01862@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204281059510.9237-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Justin Kim <jlkim@mail.com>  
> >After the tape had been listened to, there was serious 
> >discussion of canceling the mission. 
> >The surgeons were worried that whatever Borman had might be 
> >passed to the rest of the crew.
> >
> 
> The Intergalactic Laxative will get you from here to Mars....

OMG!!!  I know that song!!!

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 12:13:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 11:13:57 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204281059510.9237-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3CCC3B8E.503094B7@premier.net>


Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
<<snip>>

> > The Intergalactic Laxative will get you from here to Mars....
> 
> OMG!!!  I know that song!!!

Ah, so we have at least _two_ Donovan fans on the list....

I saw him live at a bar in Monterey, CA in 1985.  My roommate had a
Donovan concert poster from circa 1967 (IIRC, it was for a Donovan/H.P.
Lovecraft double-bill at the Fillmore West), so I brought it with me (my
roommate being under 21) and got it autographed.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 13:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Apr 28 12:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020428173927.27A3A27990@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Matthew Bond writes:
>From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>>Matthew Bond writes:
>>>Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump
>>Duration is unknowable until immediately prior to exit.
>>
>>It may or may not be known from the moment you enter jump, but it is
>>implicit in the game mechanic that fixes the jump duration by a single
>>random die roll that you can't figure it out until it is to late to abort
>>the jump. Otherwise ships would keep making the calculations (at 20
>>minutes a pop) until they found a solution that would take them to their
>>destination in less than the (so-called) average time of 7 days.
>
>Hence my stating that the roll applies to any jump from point A to Point B
>within the next few hours.

Ships getting long jump durations would still have the option of waiting
for the next jump 'window' and try again. This IS an addition to the
canonical jump mechanics. Not to mention that it won't actually help your
pirates much. They'll still have to find a jump window that just happens
to put them in the right spot at the right time. Say the first window
would put them at the intercept spot four hours too late and they
calculate that. So they wait for the next jump window and finds that now
they'll arrive six hours too early. So instead of one chance at really
lousy odds they get six or eight changes at really lousy odds. It's a
gain, but is it enough of a gain?

>Astrogation-0 IMTU gives exactly the same result (Jump Duration unknown
>until committed to Jump). Astrogation-1 lets the astrogator see the
>resulting duration prior to final commitment to jump. Astrogation 2+
>allows the astrogator to calculate jump duration for jumps in the
>subsequent (Astrogation Skill)-1 Jump 'windows', where each window
>encompasses a few hours.

The old 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absense' saw applies to
things that have not been dealt with at length in rules and adventures.
Something like what you can and cannot do with Astrogation skill has been
dealt with in detail and the absence of any mention of such abilities IS
evidence that it doesn't exist. In canon, that is.

>How about you removing your CanonVision(TM) Blinkers and considering this
>variation on Jump Duration and Astrogation on its own merits. Does it
>'break' canon? Not particularly IMHO. Does it enhance canon? Well, it
>certainly allows Fleets to arrive together... and makes Skilled Astrogators
>worth having... both of which I feel are useful.

I presume that you mean that it enhances the roleplaying potential of the
setting, not the canon. Without getting sidetracked into discussing just
how brilliant the idea is, let me say that IMO the prime function of
having a 'continuity bible' for a shared universe is to prevent authors
from messing up the setting by introducing pet ideas that may be perfectly
good ideas in their own right but would contradict previously published
information.

I'm not a fanatic about canon. If Marc came up with an absolutely amazingly
good idea for the Traveller setting that unfortunately required that he edit
out the Ancients retroactively, then I might accept that... if the idea was
truly amazing. But I think the bar is a lot higher when it comes to
contraditing the existing background than when it comes to introducing ideas
about previously untouched territory.

>You seem to feel that being able to calculate a jump duration is
>'uncanonical', where all that I can find in canon is that the duration
>varies at approximately a week +- 10% or so. Canon doesn't (in the reference
>I have to hand anyway) make any comment other than this.

I found a couple last night. On p. 92-93 of _MT:Imperial Encyclopedia_
there is a descrition/Referee's checklist of how to conduct a jump. Step 8
is to engage the jump drive. Step 9 has the ship entering jumpspace
whereupon the referee determines the jump duration. The text does not
indicate whether he informs the players about the duration immediately or
not. However, on p. 66 of _GT:Far Trader_ is an illustration of a crew
lounge during a jump. On the wall is a prominently displayed 'Elapsed jump
time' clock. I think that if the crew knew of the exact time of breakout,
that clock would display 'Time to breakout' instead. (And yes, I know that
illustrations have a lower evidence value than text, but if an
illustration doesn't contradict any text, I consider it valid).

On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of misjump
that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've misjumped as
the time stretches out past the estimated breakout time. If they knew
exactly when they were supposed to emerge, they'd know something was wrong
within a few minutes of passing that time. I _think_ is was somewhere in a
CT book, but I can't recall if it was rules or and adventure. I'll see if
I can dig it up. (If anyone else can provide a reference, please do so).

>If I as GM choose to apply this same time to all ships jumping between the
>same two points within a similar timeframe, I am free to do so. I could even
>state that a jump between two given systems ALWAYS takes the same time, and
>the roll is just to determine this time the first time the players jump
>between those two systems.

Of course you can. It's your universe. But would you be able to do so if
you were writing a Traveller adventure for official publication? I believe
not. (Not that it is my call to make, of course).

>...Or I could say that all jumps have random durations all the time (as
>you and many others feel is the case). All three of these options is just
>as valid in canon, as all canon states is that not all Jumps take the
>same time, and that the variation is within set limits around one week.

Even if that was true (which I don't agree with), only one of those three
options could be true for any particular universe. The moment someone uses
one of the options in an official adventure, BANG!, it's the way things
are, always have been, ad always will be in the OTU.

>Now if you want to persist in deriding me for being 'uncanonical' please
>direct me to a valid reference that invalidates my assumptions.

Well, I don't think I've derided you yet, so I can't persist. But take the
above two references as a start (of references, not of deriding). I'll see
if I can dig up more.

>But just because it is different to the way you have always done things
>doesn't necessarily make it uncanonical,

I agree. I've made mistakes before. I don't think I'm doing it now,
though.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 15:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 28 14:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>
References: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020429074417.A25504@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Ok, this takes into account any given analysis... so what happens when the
> system analyses several frames of the CCTV footage... The chances of the
> same Innocent person being repeatedly misidentified as being in the database
> surely falls, and similarly the chance of correctly identifying a criminal
> as being in the database rises.

No.  Repeating the same analysis on slightly different frames merely
spreads the error rates out worse still.

A more detailed analysis: the system is based on a "similarity" score.
In different frames (at different angles, lighting, etc), the score
will vary.  In particular, it will look like a "bell" as the person
being identified passes through their 'best' profile, with a large
amount of noise superimposed on the curve.

This will happen even for people not in the database, since even
innocent people's faces look more like that of a miscreant than the
back of their head does, or their face at a drastically different
angle.

Now, the 4% error quoted is for the best case: a clear shot of the
subject's face under good consistent lighting at about the same angle
as the shots in their database.  


> If the threshold for flagging a particular person as being worth
> further investigation is set to be say 7+ positives out of 10 frames
> analysed, then the system can filter out many of the false positives
> and false negatives before raising it to a higher level of
> investigation.

Unfortunately not.  If you do that, then yes, you drop the chance of
misidentifying an innocent somewhat.  However, you grossly drop the
chance of correctly identifying someone in the database -- you'll
virtually *never* have a full 7 frames with a high score.  So you have
to lower your threshold (a lot), consequently increasing the chance of
misidentifying innocents.  If you do the maths on the identification
curves, you'll see that this always ends up with a worse trade-off
than before.  Although it 'sharpens' the identification curve, it
sharpens the *noise* in the curve even more.


> (and I would expect that the first level of investigation is simply
> to get a human operator to look at the screen and compare the image
> with that in the database...)

This would help, but means you need to employ someone full-time to
compare the images.  Furthermore, there is going to be a large overlap
between what the computer misidentifies and what a human would -- the
suspect and database image do have similar faces, after all.  Humans
aren't known for being that accurate either.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Apr 28 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide
Message-ID: <003501c1eefe$04116fc0$85e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1EF06.32FC43C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Traveller's Aide #1 seems to be receiving a warm welcome, and several =
more issues are in preparation.=20

However, we're still open to anyone interested in writing future =
volumes.

All Traveller's Aides will be "official" traveller material and thus =
compatible with all versions of the rules. Stats for  T20 and CT are =
included in all. The "Home" setting of T20 is year 1000, which is close =
enough to the late-golden-age CT setting that supplements can be =
compatible with both. We have a wish-list but we're also open to =
suggestions.=20

We particularly need adventures of the LBB sort right now, and these =
need not be set in the T20 "Home" setting of Gateway Domain. I.e. if you =
have an adventure for CT set in the Marches or the Rim, Lishun Sector in =
Year 0, or wherever, we'll consider it.=20

Mail me direct for more details.=20


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1EF06.32FC43C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Traveller's Aide #1 seems to be =
receiving a warm=20
welcome, and several more issues are in preparation. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>However, we're still open to anyone =
interested in=20
writing future volumes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>All Traveller's Aides will be =
"official" traveller=20
material and thus compatible with all versions of the rules. Stats =
for&nbsp; T20=20
and CT are included in all. The "Home" setting of T20 is year 1000, =
which is=20
close enough to the late-golden-age CT setting that supplements can be=20
compatible with both. We have a wish-list but we're also open to =
suggestions.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We particularly need adventures of the =
LBB sort=20
right now, and these need not be set in the T20 "Home" setting of =
Gateway=20
Domain. I.e. if you have an adventure for CT set in&nbsp;the Marches or =
the Rim,=20
Lishun Sector in Year 0, or wherever, we'll consider it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mail me direct for more details. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1EF06.32FC43C0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 16:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 15:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>
>> >>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you
>> >>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a
>> >>member.
>> >>
>> >>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960
>> >>correctly ID'ed.
>> >
>> >
>> > Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives.
>>
>> Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...
>>
>> IAC, this only makes my later analysis much worse.
>
> Ok, this takes into account any given analysis... so what happens when the
> system analyses several frames of the CCTV footage... The chances of the
> same Innocent person being repeatedly misidentified as being in the database
> surely falls, and similarly the chance of correctly identifying a criminal
> as being in the database rises.

The system *is* analyzing several frame, just to get *usable* data. 

Try a freeze frame on your VCR to see just how *bad* the resolution of
broadcast TV is. CCTV systems aren't any better. You have to
interpolate from several frames just to get enough detail. 

And the given error rate is most definitely *not* from analyzing a
single frame.

> If the threshold for flagging a particular person as being worth further
> investigation (and I would expect that the first level of investigation is
> simply to get a human operator to look at the screen and compare the image
> with that in the database...) is set to be say 7+ positives out of 10 frames
> analysed, then the system can filter out many of the false positives and
> false negatives before raising it to a higher level of investigation.

Again, you are completely off base with regards to how the analysis is
being done. It's *not* matching individual frames against *anything*.
It's using multiple frames to derive enough detauils to *attempt* a match.

It *has* to. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 16:03:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 15:03:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20428.143242.4c0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
>>>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
>>>member.
>>>
>>>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
>>>correctly ID'ed.
>> 
>> 
>> Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives. 
>
> Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...

It's just been too long since you used a slipstick. Getting the
decimals right there *mattered*. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 16:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 15:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fellow Travellers in Colorado
Message-ID: <3CCC740B.21C858AD@premier.net>

I'm going to be at Ft. Carson, CO, for a couple of months as I train up
for my upcoming Sinai tour.  According to Eris' TML roster, there are
three TMLers (past or present) in Colorado (John Lambert in Colorado
Springs, and Steve Deemer and Robert Uhl in Denver).

Any others out there?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Sickness and the Political Control of Information
In-Reply-To: <001301c1ee93$5bbcfd40$4e7354d2@1338700057>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk>
 <000e01c1ee6a$4f48ce00$52200050@matt>
 <001301c1ee93$5bbcfd40$4e7354d2@1338700057>
Message-ID: <m3elgzfn0r.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Jeffrey Malone" <nparker1971@ozemail.com.au> writes:
> 
> The bottom line: Jump Sickness has more to do with protecting the
> Imperial body politic from destabilising uncontrolled information
> flows, than its alleged victims.

I must disagree.  The impression I get from the TNS bulletins is that
jump sickness is denied to exist, due to the additional costs of trade
it would cause, and that Long has proof that it does.  But then, none
of the canon I've to hand mentions it.  Perhaps in some other fragment
it is explained that it is a known risk?

I also don't think that the Imperium would be locking up folks who
misjump great distances.  First of all, canon implies that the risks
of misjump are known both in magnitude and in frequency.  Secondly,
people would surely mention their imprisonment, unless brain-wiped.
Thirdly, how likely is it for an entire ship to be afflicted at once?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The fact that we have bodies is the oldest joke there is.  --C.S. Lewis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:03:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:03:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
In-Reply-To: <146.da76e8b.29fd3d17@aol.com>
References: <146.da76e8b.29fd3d17@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3adrnfmzb.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Olegamer@aol.com writes:

Emacs, at least, thinks that you wrote HTML.  Anyone have better
information?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the people of
the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own
arms.                            --Samuel Adams, brewer and patriot

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <m31yczfmrp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>
> Again, you are completely off base with regards to how the analysis
> is being done. It's *not* matching individual frames against
> *anything*.  It's using multiple frames to derive enough detauils to
> *attempt* a match.
> 
> It *has* to. 

Well, it has to unless the authorities mandate that eveyone approach
cameras in such a manner as to make the frames be identical to those
in the database.

`Comrade, approach the camera face-forward and stand still for 12
seconds!'

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
...a language is just an dialect with an army and a navy.
                                --Paul Tomblin, in a.s.r.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:10:04 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <B8F16629.58CB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8F16629.58CB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3662bfmwb.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> I suppose so.  Just for the record, officers pay for their own
> uniforms and meals.

And, at least in the Navy, at least when my father was in, their cooks
as well.  The best at the time were reputed to be Phillipino: not
overly expensive, but with an amazing command of culinary technique.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own
good, in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of
theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it.        --John Stuart Mill

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> 
> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> time.

Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
having an estimated breakout.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
                                                 --Mojo Nixon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk> <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3CCC847F.2ABA2927@premier.net>


"Robert Uhl " wrote:
> 
> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >
> > On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> > misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> > misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> > time.
> 
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

Ah, but passing the normal maximum by any significant amount should
start to worry you, regardless of your pre-calculated jump time.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk> <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020429093423.A25777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
[...suspecting misjump ...]
> Even passing further is no big deal.

Once you've got to the 98th percentile, you'd be having dark
suspicions.  The problem is that if the jump duration is known rather
precisely beforehand, the time between "all's well" and "oh my god,
we've misjumped" is rather too short for mere misgivings.


>  Indeed, without having an idea how long _this particular jump_ will
> be, there's no way of having an estimated breakout.

Of course there's an estimated breakout time: within 10% of 168 hours.
By the time you've reached the 99th percentile of that, the posterior
probability of misjump has increased 100-fold, and starting to look
comparably likely to merely a long but successful jump.

In the 'known duration' case specified, the time interval between the
99th and 100th percentiles for successful jumps is at least two orders
of magnitude shorter -- not enough time for vague suspicions and
speculations throughout the crew.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 17:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Population Modelling
In-Reply-To: <00e801c1cbc7$eea362a0$67da883e@fabian>
Message-ID: <20428.160746.5z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

I was catching up on old posts, and this jumped out at me...

In mail you write:

> As a mathematical exercise, I worked out that, assuming a free movement of
> populations (a false assumption), everyone is descended from everyone as
> of 500 years ago. This is based on teh fact that teh number of ancestors
> doubles every generation, but the total population decreases as you go
> back in time. Working out when teh two numbers are equal is a simple
> exercise...

Actually, there's a hidden assumption in there that destroys the idea.

The number of ancestors doubles each generation back *only* if there
are no common ancestors. With the current "rule" that first cousins
can't marry, but second cousins can, you can have common ancestors 3 or
4 generations back (I can't recall exactly how "second cousin" is
defined). 

Anybody who has done any detailed family trees that go back very far
will run into branches that cross this way.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 19:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Sun Apr 28 18:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <m31yczfmrp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <005d01c1ef1e$95858f20$9307b286@Shane>

Robert wrote:
> Well, it has to unless the authorities mandate that eveyone approach
> cameras in such a manner as to make the frames be identical to those
> in the database.
>
> `Comrade, approach the camera face-forward and stand still for 12
> seconds!'

You know, it strikes me that (barring Robert's suggestion above) this system
is stupidly easy to evade if you know where the cameras are, or even where
the cameras are likely to be.  Good luck to any system, automated or
otherwise, attempting to get a clear mugshot of someone who is trying not to
be recognized.  I'm not talking about pulling your jacket over your head, or
wearing a balaclava or anything silly like that.  Simply blowing your nose
on a handkerchief as you pass the camera; or looking down to brush something
off your shirt; or turning away to wave goodbye to someone.  There are
dozens of such stunts you can pull, and you can use a different one every
'checkpoint' you pass.  Maybe combine that with taking off your jacket
between checkpoints, and putting it back on after the next one to interfere
with the system identifying you by your clothes.

I think it comes back to the idea that a halfway intelligent criminal who
really doesn't want to be caught generally won't be caught.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- "And you're mo' smarter than the crooks on Miami Vice...
riiiight?"
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 19:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 28 18:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Population Modelling
In-Reply-To: <20428.160746.5z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <00e801c1cbc7$eea362a0$67da883e@fabian>
Message-ID: <3CCD4F3B.28144.D948ED@localhost>

On 28 Apr 2002 at 16:07, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> The number of ancestors doubles each generation back *only* if there
> are no common ancestors. With the current "rule" that first cousins
> can't marry, but second cousins can, you can have common ancestors 3 or
> 4 generations back (I can't recall exactly how "second cousin" is
> defined). 

Your second cousins are the children of your parents' first cousins.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 21:01:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 20:01:19 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
Message-ID: <3CCCB6E8.CF6883B@premier.net>

Yet another cruiser design from AuricTech, _Dido_ is primarily a killer
of smaller vessels, with 20 large NPAW linear bay weapons.

_Dido_, _Dido_ class Light Cruiser (FF&S v2)
Designed by AuricTech Shipyards

Statistics
Tons: 25000std ( SL Short Rnd Cylinder Hypersonic )
Dimensions: 125m x 62.1m x 62.1m
Volume: 350000m3
Mass (L/C): 324434t/311263t
Maintenance Points: 9989
Cargo: 200std (0/8 /Hdl:8x50ton)
Crew: 437/585
Cost: 29263.8 Mcr
Tech Level: 15
Size: 10

Electronics
Controls: Holographic, Standard automation. 24xFltComp (CM:0.2 CP:5.0).
4xFibComp
(CM:0.2 CP:5.0). Terrain following sensors (TF:570, NOE:190). Bridge.
Communications: 4xRadio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 8xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
1xMeson (1,000AU,
5MW).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (14 [50mkm], 0.05MW). 1xAEMS (12.5 [5mkm] LP, 50MW).
12xLIDAR
(15 [2mkm], 2.5MW).
ECM: 1xRadio Jammer (1,000AU, 0.4MW). 1xDecp. Jammer (12, 1.25MW).
1xPas. Jammer
(15, 0.63MW).
Signatures: Vis:-0.5, IR:0 (0 at 50801MW, -0.5 at 8100MW), Act:0, Neu:0,
Grav:2 (Military Black coating, Advanced IR masking, 1 level Stealth,
Neutrino masking)

Weaponry
1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750]
(LR)
20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
(LR)
20 x 15 Mj Quad Laser Turret (+6) 1/4-4-4-4 [4,800/10-10-10-10] (LR)
12xMissile Auto 1/8 ( /Mag:39 /MFD:500,000km) w/40 Cmd DL 1d6/2 6.0G12
1000AU

Additional Fire Control
2xBeam Master Fire Directors (0MW 500,000km)
2xMissile Master Fire Directors (0MW 500,000km)

Performance
4    Jump (2500std/pc fuel)
6/6.2     Maneuver (/Thruster:48265MW)
No Contra-grav
5000kph/5000kph Atmosphere (/Crus:3750kph/3750kph)
6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
10578.9   Fuel (/Scoop:3 /Purif:30,148MW)
580/20/150 Accomodations (Small stateroom/Large stateroom/Emergency Low
berth)
15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations for 600
crew)
6    G-Comp
18   Sandcasters ( /AV:70 /Cans:20)
715  Damper Screen (169MW)
715  Meson Screen (319.516MW)
100 [715] Armor, 52 Structure

Features
250xAirlock
4xDocking Umbilical
1xElectronic Shop (6std ea.)  
1xMachine Shop (10std ea.)    
4xSickbay (8std ea.)     
1xShip's locker (12.5std ea.)
10xArmory (2.14std ea.) (Capacity: 60 each)
6xGym (2.5std ea.)
3xLounge(44std ea.)
1xCIC(44std ea.)
4xOrdinary Galley (Cap:150)
4xFull Galley (Cap:150)       

Small Craft
1xSpacHgr (30std, 1 hatches)
3xDockRing (30std)       

Backups
Sensors: 2xPEMS (13.5 [16mkm]). 2xAEMS (12 [1.6mkm] LP). 24xLIDAR (14.5
[500kkm]).

Power & Fuel: Fusion (1000MW).
Crew Details
7 x Maneuver. 1 x Electronics. 326 x Engineer. 23 x Maintenance. 65 x
Gunner. 12 x Screen. 8 x Flight. 40 x Troops. 80 x Command. 19 x
Steward. 4 x Medical.

The _Dido_-class light cruiser is expressly intended to operate against
multiple smaller foes.  Although _Dido_ mounts the well-proven 11.144 Gj
NPAW found on many smaller AuricTech cruiser designs, her primary
purpose is to carry 20 smaller, yet still potent, NPAWs into battle. 
One NPAW of this type is capable of engaging a destroyer on equal terms;
_Dido_ mounts twenty such weapons.  Twelve missile bays add to _Dido's_
offensive punch, while AuricTech's proven 15-Mj quad-mount laser turrets
provide both effective point defense against missiles and useful
anti-ship capability against smaller vessels.

As with most AuricTech cruiser designs, _Dido_ is capable of extended
independent operations.  She carries 26 weeks of rations for her design
crew, with enough galley capacity to enable her to mess twice her design
complement.  Under normal manning, each of _Dido's_ crewbeings enjoys an
individual Small or Large stateroom.  _Dido's_ habitability is enhanced
both by her large enlisted and officer lounges, each of which has an
adjacent ordinary galley as a snack bar, and by her physical fitness
centers, which exceed Imperial standards.  Her MultiFlow Corporation
Extended life support system is rated to support double occupancy
indefinitely.  Routine maintenance far from base is facilitated by
_Dido's_ workshops and cargo bays.

All these capabilities are not achieved at the expense of performance.
_Dido_ is capable of the 6G/J4 performance expected of Imperial Navy
fleet units.


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 23:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 22:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Singularities
Message-ID: <200204290551.g3T5p4G05098@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Singularities
...
>To quote from someone else:
...
>Even in the Gulf War of 1991 which saw a force of almost 
>400,000 hammered by unlimited conventional airpower for a 
>month and attacked by a large modern mobile armor force with 
>an enormous technological advantage in weaponry, the 
>estimated casualty figure for Iraqi forces equals 
>approximately only 7.1 percent."

  Given that all of the previous figures in that thesis were
annualized (eg, 9.0 per 1,000 per year for WW2), isn't it
strange that this one figure isn't? Especially as it would
contravene their conclusion if it were presented the same way.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 02:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Mon Apr 29 01:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
References: <16f.cbfbaed.29fb394e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CCD0A2F.1080406@gmx.net>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
>>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
>>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>>>
>officer."
>
>>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
>>
>TOS.
>
>Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
>people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
>doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.
>
And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
Bakula...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 03:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 29 02:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Opinions, please
Message-ID: <004a01c1ef5c$d0e67b40$66d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a couple of questions for the list... consider this market =
research of a sort.

1. The Traveller's Aide series: what would folks like to see? The =
planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is there something =
specific?

For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
there prospective writers?

2. Some time ago I began work on a Traveller novel set during the =
Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems likely that the =
Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in a "Golden Age" =
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a couple of questions for the =
list...=20
consider this market research of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. The Traveller's Aide series: what =
would folks=20
like to see? The planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is =
there=20
something specific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what about a series of CT =
adventures=20
set in the Marches, circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make =
it worth=20
doing? Are there prospective writers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Some time ago I began work on a =
Traveller novel=20
set during the Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems =
likely=20
that the Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in =
a&nbsp;"Golden Age"=20
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the=20
Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 04:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 29 03:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20429.005102.9p1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
>> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
>> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
>> time.
>
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
will suspecyt there's a misjump.

>
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
> live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
> always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
>                                                  --Mojo Nixon
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 04:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Mon Apr 29 03:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>

In mail (Digest, which is why I'm so far behind:-), "Matthew Bond" 
<mattgbond@ntlworld.com> said...

<SNIP>
Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in 
the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
</SNIP>

I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4% 
failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company creating 
the system, or the local Police force.

*I* am merely repeating it.

To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently 
'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a lake 
have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in prison 
for perjury (telling lies in court).
Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the 
prisons are too overcrowded"...

ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the 
*whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her 
mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.

Jeff.
"I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 06:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Mon Apr 29 05:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern]
Message-ID: <3CCCF3C7.28630.3F7A8E@localhost>

I picked up a book called "The Yard" by Michael S Sanders
it covers the construction of an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer
from the keel up by the Bath Iron Works, and various techniques and some 
interesting pictures and diagrams

which leads into the question of how starships are built

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 06:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 05:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (OT) George Alec Effinger
Message-ID: <20020429.082943.-324537.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Some of you may already know this, but for those who haven't, George Alec
Effinger has passed away (it's been a rough couple of weeks for SF...
Damon Knight passed away not too long ago).  SJG's 'Daily Illuminator'
has more info: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 07:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Mon Apr 29 06:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B90@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: 29 April 2002 09:51
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >> 
> >> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> >> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> >> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> >> time.
> >
> > Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that 
> jump duration
> > is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that 
> passing the
> > minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> > average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, 
> without having
> > an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> > having an estimated breakout.
> 
> No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
> 168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
> will suspecyt there's a misjump.

Well, theres also the possiblity that the Astrogator miscalculated the
duration... so once the calculated time has elapsed the figures would be
checked and double checked. This will take some time. Then there will be
speculation that an uncharted massive body has interrupted the jump
route, thus throwing the duration out, even then one you get to 185
hours misjump will be the likely answer.

Also, IIRC, Jump sickness is more frequent in Misjumps, with onset of
headaches, dizzyness and nausea within 2-3 days of Jump initiation. So
that is likely to be the first indication of misjump rather than the
calculated duration passing.

And on the subject of Jump Sickness, I thought that Jeffery Long was the
guy that was in a coma after being the only known survivor of EVA during
Jump, and thus unshielded exposure to the Jump bubble. Simple Jump
Sickness is an accepted medical condition that some part of the
population suffers from in Jump, and which is more prevalent in a
misjump (and being one of the early telltales of a misjump)

As for the Illustration of a Jump Time Elapsed Display, rather than a
Countdown to Jump emergence, this may be to facilitate the Jump Exit
Lottery on the ship for passengers and crew. The Astrogator and Captain
may know when the ship is expected to exit Jump, but no-one else
necessarily does...

Matt 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 08:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Apr 29 07:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
References: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3pu0ibmj0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> An ex-Politician is in prison for perjury (telling lies in court).

Given that the entire basis of our court system is people telling the
truth in court, I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 09:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (allensh)
Date: Mon Apr 29 08:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
In-Reply-To: <3CCD0A2F.1080406@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <20020429150301.82010.qmail@web13908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> >tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military
> vessel, its organization is 
> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category
> does not exist. STAR TREK 
> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman
> aboard the U.S.S. 
> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified
> astronaut, therefore an 
> >>>
> >officer."

This was true in the original series, but not in the
later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 09:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Apr 29 08:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425.170405.-125887.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020429151026.74367.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
could prescribe that for our good General?


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> > On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> > 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three
> bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of
> Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.
> 
> Turokan
> 
> ..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.  
> ---   -       -..   .. 
>  .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..  
> ...-   .   --..--     
>  .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-  
> .-.   .       -   .... 
>  .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---  
> ..-.       -   ....   . 
>      .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
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> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 10:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Mon Apr 29 09:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <l03010d14b8f328581e59@[206.224.92.67]>

A message from Warehouse 23 to Traveller fans:

>The details of ordering and availability for the Traveller Limited Edition
>Hardcover haven't been finalized yet.  We will make an announcement as soon
>as everything has been confirmed.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a collection of existing Traveller
>items.  It will be sold through normal distribution and you can get it at
>your friendly local game store, or through Warehouse 23.  Just to clear up
>some confusion: no, it isn't preorder only.
>
>If there's anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me
>here at orders@sjgames.com.

Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
the word out.

We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.

The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
through the normal FLGS channels.



Loren



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <l03010d14b8f328581e59@[206.224.92.67]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429101934.009ecc00@mindspring.com>

At 11:47 AM 4/29/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
>them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
>the word out.
>
>We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
>and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
>through the normal FLGS channels.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf 
shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429101934.009ecc00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEKLDMAA.tml@downport.com>

http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry

> I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Message-ID: <F273WORuXB3QvCzI3Jj000037f8@hotmail.com>

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Brilliant!  I love it."


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  Please have fun using it in your campaigns.  You can 
see from the GM-imposed hardware/software/manning requirements that it was a 
definite "fun quotient" tweak.

     "This should become part of canon, methinks."

     Nope, that's going way too far.  This is absolutely a MTU/YTU rule 
only.  Besides, I got a sneaking suspicion that many folks already have 
something like it in their TUs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Message-ID: <200204291255.AA4128904@caddocourt.com>

From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
>--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
>> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>> >>>officer."
>
>This was true in the original series, but not in the
>later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
>was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
>were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Again, TNG was also "officer-only" for its first couple of seasons.  And Colm Meany's character was clearly an officer (specifically a Lt).  It was only post-Rodenberry where they introduce enlisted personel and "redefined" Colm Meany's character into the enlisted O'Brien.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Donald McKinney)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with reprint of Double Adventures...
Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E011405E2@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>

Ok, I spilled a dark substance on page 1 of the "Stranded on Arden" adventure in my *NEW* reprints book.

Is it possible to get someone to send me a photocopy of pages 1 and 2 of the "Stranded on Arden" adventure?  Sigh...


DonM.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with reprint of Double Adventures...
Message-ID: <200204291920.FGU00108@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Donald McKinney says
>Ok, I spilled a dark substance on page 1 of the "Stranded on 
>Arden" adventure in my *NEW* reprints book.
>

Ah, the dreaded Coffee...
________________
NO! Sentence first, verdict after!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22737@USCHM203>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
>circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
>there prospective writers?

>2.(re-Traveller Novel)So; supposing we serialized it in =
>the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?

Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:00 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #454 - 15 msgs


Send TML mailing list submissions to
	tml@travellercentral.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	tml-request@travellercentral.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
	tml-admin@travellercentral.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Re: Star Trek (Robert Houghton)
   2. Opinions, please (MJ Dougherty)
   3. Re: Re: Piracy assumptions (Leonard Erickson)
   4. Re: Big Brother (Jeff Rowse)
   5. an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern] (shadowcat)
   6. (OT) George Alec Effinger (knightsky@juno.com)
   7. RE: Re: Piracy assumptions (Matthew Bond)
   8. Re: Re: Big Brother (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
   9. Re: Re: Star Trek (allensh)
  10. Re: RAH and libertarianism (Paul Walker)
  11. (no subject) (Loren Wiseman)
  12. Re: (no subject) (Douglas Berry)
  13. RE: (no subject) (Swordy)
  14. Re: Grote's Clan Ships (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
  15. Re: Re: Star Trek (Mike West)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:54:07 +1000
From: Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
>>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK

>>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>>>
>officer."
>
>>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
>>
>TOS.
>
>Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
>people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
>doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.
>
And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
Bakula...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:03:35 +0100
Subject: [TML] Opinions, please
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a couple of questions for the list... consider this market =
research of a sort.

1. The Traveller's Aide series: what would folks like to see? The =
planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is there something =
specific?

For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
there prospective writers?

2. Some time ago I began work on a Traveller novel set during the =
Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems likely that the =
Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in a "Golden Age" =
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a couple of questions for the =
list...=20
consider this market research of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. The Traveller's Aide series: what =
would folks=20
like to see? The planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is =
there=20
something specific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what about a series of CT =
adventures=20
set in the Marches, circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make =
it worth=20
doing? Are there prospective writers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Some time ago I began work on a =
Traveller novel=20
set during the Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems =
likely=20
that the Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in =
a&nbsp;"Golden Age"=20
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the=20
Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220--


--__--__--

Message: 3
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 00:51:02 PST
Organization: Shadownet
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
>> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
>> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
>> time.
>
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
will suspecyt there's a misjump.

>
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
> live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
> always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
>                                                  --Mojo Nixon
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


--__--__--

Message: 4
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:52:01 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail (Digest, which is why I'm so far behind:-), "Matthew Bond" 
<mattgbond@ntlworld.com> said...

<SNIP>
Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in

the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
</SNIP>

I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4% 
failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company creating 
the system, or the local Police force.

*I* am merely repeating it.

To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently 
'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a lake 
have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in prison

for perjury (telling lies in court).
Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the 
prisons are too overcrowded"...

ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the 
*whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her 
mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.

Jeff.
"I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:18:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern]
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I picked up a book called "The Yard" by Michael S Sanders
it covers the construction of an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer
from the keel up by the Bath Iron Works, and various techniques and some 
interesting pictures and diagrams

which leads into the question of how starships are built

--__--__--

Message: 6
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:29:40 -0400
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: [TML] (OT) George Alec Effinger
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Some of you may already know this, but for those who haven't, George Alec
Effinger has passed away (it's been a rough couple of weeks for SF...
Damon Knight passed away not too long ago).  SJG's 'Daily Illuminator'
has more info: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:41:44 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com



> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: 29 April 2002 09:51
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >> 
> >> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> >> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> >> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> >> time.
> >
> > Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that 
> jump duration
> > is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that 
> passing the
> > minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> > average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, 
> without having
> > an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> > having an estimated breakout.
> 
> No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
> 168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
> will suspecyt there's a misjump.

Well, theres also the possiblity that the Astrogator miscalculated the
duration... so once the calculated time has elapsed the figures would be
checked and double checked. This will take some time. Then there will be
speculation that an uncharted massive body has interrupted the jump
route, thus throwing the duration out, even then one you get to 185
hours misjump will be the likely answer.

Also, IIRC, Jump sickness is more frequent in Misjumps, with onset of
headaches, dizzyness and nausea within 2-3 days of Jump initiation. So
that is likely to be the first indication of misjump rather than the
calculated duration passing.

And on the subject of Jump Sickness, I thought that Jeffery Long was the
guy that was in a coma after being the only known survivor of EVA during
Jump, and thus unshielded exposure to the Jump bubble. Simple Jump
Sickness is an accepted medical condition that some part of the
population suffers from in Jump, and which is more prevalent in a
misjump (and being one of the early telltales of a misjump)

As for the Illustration of a Jump Time Elapsed Display, rather than a
Countdown to Jump emergence, this may be to facilitate the Jump Exit
Lottery on the ship for passengers and crew. The Astrogator and Captain
may know when the ship is expected to exit Jump, but no-one else
necessarily does...

Matt 

--__--__--

Message: 8
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Big Brother
From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: 29 Apr 2002 08:35:31 -0600
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> An ex-Politician is in prison for perjury (telling lies in court).

Given that the entire basis of our court system is people telling the
truth in court, I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

--__--__--

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> >tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military
> vessel, its organization is 
> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category
> does not exist. STAR TREK 
> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman
> aboard the U.S.S. 
> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified
> astronaut, therefore an 
> >>>
> >officer."

This was true in the original series, but not in the
later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
could prescribe that for our good General?


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> > On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> > 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three
> bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of
> Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.
> 
> Turokan
> 
> ..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.  
> ---   -       -..   .. 
>  .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..  
> ...-   .   --..--     
>  .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-  
> .-.   .       -   .... 
>  .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---  
> ..-.       -   ....   . 
>      .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:47:47 -0500
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

A message from Warehouse 23 to Traveller fans:

>The details of ordering and availability for the Traveller Limited Edition
>Hardcover haven't been finalized yet.  We will make an announcement as soon
>as everything has been confirmed.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a collection of existing Traveller
>items.  It will be sold through normal distribution and you can get it at
>your friendly local game store, or through Warehouse 23.  Just to clear up
>some confusion: no, it isn't preorder only.
>
>If there's anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me
>here at orders@sjgames.com.

Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
the word out.

We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.

The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
through the normal FLGS channels.



Loren



--__--__--

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:21:03 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 11:47 AM 4/29/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
>them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
>the word out.
>
>We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
>and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses
out.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
>through the normal FLGS channels.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf 
shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


--__--__--

Message: 13
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] (no subject)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:16 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry

> I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



--__--__--

Message: 14
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:40:58 +0000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Brilliant!  I love it."


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  Please have fun using it in your campaigns.  You can 
see from the GM-imposed hardware/software/manning requirements that it was a

definite "fun quotient" tweak.

     "This should become part of canon, methinks."

     Nope, that's going way too far.  This is absolutely a MTU/YTU rule 
only.  Besides, I got a sneaking suspicion that many folks already have 
something like it in their TUs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:55:27 -0500
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
>--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is

>> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR
TREK 
>> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>> >>>officer."
>
>This was true in the original series, but not in the
>later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
>was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
>were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Again, TNG was also "officer-only" for its first couple of seasons.  And
Colm Meany's character was clearly an officer (specifically a Lt).  It was
only post-Rodenberry where they introduce enlisted personel and "redefined"
Colm Meany's character into the enlisted O'Brien.

Mike West


--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:43:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:43:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Opinions, please (MJ Dougherty)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22738@USCHM203>


-----Original Message-----
From: Hurrel, Brian 
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:39 PM
To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
Subject: From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>


"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
>circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
>there prospective writers?

>2.(re-Traveller Novel)So; supposing we serialized it in =
>the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?

Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:00 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #454 - 15 msgs


Send TML mailing list submissions to
	tml@travellercentral.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	tml-request@travellercentral.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
	tml-admin@travellercentral.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Re: Star Trek (Robert Houghton)
   2. Opinions, please (MJ Dougherty)
   3. Re: Re: Piracy assumptions (Leonard Erickson)
   4. Re: Big Brother (Jeff Rowse)
   5. an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern] (shadowcat)
   6. (OT) George Alec Effinger (knightsky@juno.com)
   7. RE: Re: Piracy assumptions (Matthew Bond)
   8. Re: Re: Big Brother (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
   9. Re: Re: Star Trek (allensh)
  10. Re: RAH and libertarianism (Paul Walker)
  11. (no subject) (Loren Wiseman)
  12. Re: (no subject) (Douglas Berry)
  13. RE: (no subject) (Swordy)
  14. Re: Grote's Clan Ships (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
  15. Re: Re: Star Trek (Mike West)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:54:07 +1000
From: Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
>>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK

>>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>>>
>officer."
>
>>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
>>
>TOS.
>
>Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
>people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
>doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.
>
And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
Bakula...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:03:35 +0100
Subject: [TML] Opinions, please
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a couple of questions for the list... consider this market =
research of a sort.

1. The Traveller's Aide series: what would folks like to see? The =
planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is there something =
specific?

For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
there prospective writers?

2. Some time ago I began work on a Traveller novel set during the =
Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems likely that the =
Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in a "Golden Age" =
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a couple of questions for the =
list...=20
consider this market research of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. The Traveller's Aide series: what =
would folks=20
like to see? The planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is =
there=20
something specific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what about a series of CT =
adventures=20
set in the Marches, circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make =
it worth=20
doing? Are there prospective writers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Some time ago I began work on a =
Traveller novel=20
set during the Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems =
likely=20
that the Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in =
a&nbsp;"Golden Age"=20
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the=20
Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220--


--__--__--

Message: 3
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 00:51:02 PST
Organization: Shadownet
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
>> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
>> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
>> time.
>
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
will suspecyt there's a misjump.

>
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
> live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
> always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
>                                                  --Mojo Nixon
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


--__--__--

Message: 4
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:52:01 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail (Digest, which is why I'm so far behind:-), "Matthew Bond" 
<mattgbond@ntlworld.com> said...

<SNIP>
Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in

the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
</SNIP>

I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4% 
failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company creating 
the system, or the local Police force.

*I* am merely repeating it.

To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently 
'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a lake 
have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in prison

for perjury (telling lies in court).
Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the 
prisons are too overcrowded"...

ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the 
*whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her 
mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.

Jeff.
"I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:18:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern]
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I picked up a book called "The Yard" by Michael S Sanders
it covers the construction of an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer
from the keel up by the Bath Iron Works, and various techniques and some 
interesting pictures and diagrams

which leads into the question of how starships are built

--__--__--

Message: 6
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:29:40 -0400
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: [TML] (OT) George Alec Effinger
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Some of you may already know this, but for those who haven't, George Alec
Effinger has passed away (it's been a rough couple of weeks for SF...
Damon Knight passed away not too long ago).  SJG's 'Daily Illuminator'
has more info: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:41:44 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com



> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: 29 April 2002 09:51
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >> 
> >> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> >> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> >> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> >> time.
> >
> > Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that 
> jump duration
> > is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that 
> passing the
> > minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> > average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, 
> without having
> > an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> > having an estimated breakout.
> 
> No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
> 168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
> will suspecyt there's a misjump.

Well, theres also the possiblity that the Astrogator miscalculated the
duration... so once the calculated time has elapsed the figures would be
checked and double checked. This will take some time. Then there will be
speculation that an uncharted massive body has interrupted the jump
route, thus throwing the duration out, even then one you get to 185
hours misjump will be the likely answer.

Also, IIRC, Jump sickness is more frequent in Misjumps, with onset of
headaches, dizzyness and nausea within 2-3 days of Jump initiation. So
that is likely to be the first indication of misjump rather than the
calculated duration passing.

And on the subject of Jump Sickness, I thought that Jeffery Long was the
guy that was in a coma after being the only known survivor of EVA during
Jump, and thus unshielded exposure to the Jump bubble. Simple Jump
Sickness is an accepted medical condition that some part of the
population suffers from in Jump, and which is more prevalent in a
misjump (and being one of the early telltales of a misjump)

As for the Illustration of a Jump Time Elapsed Display, rather than a
Countdown to Jump emergence, this may be to facilitate the Jump Exit
Lottery on the ship for passengers and crew. The Astrogator and Captain
may know when the ship is expected to exit Jump, but no-one else
necessarily does...

Matt 

--__--__--

Message: 8
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Big Brother
From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: 29 Apr 2002 08:35:31 -0600
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> An ex-Politician is in prison for perjury (telling lies in court).

Given that the entire basis of our court system is people telling the
truth in court, I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

--__--__--

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> >tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military
> vessel, its organization is 
> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category
> does not exist. STAR TREK 
> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman
> aboard the U.S.S. 
> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified
> astronaut, therefore an 
> >>>
> >officer."

This was true in the original series, but not in the
later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
could prescribe that for our good General?


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> > On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> > 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three
> bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of
> Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.
> 
> Turokan
> 
> ..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.  
> ---   -       -..   .. 
>  .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..  
> ...-   .   --..--     
>  .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-  
> .-.   .       -   .... 
>  .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---  
> ..-.       -   ....   . 
>      .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:47:47 -0500
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

A message from Warehouse 23 to Traveller fans:

>The details of ordering and availability for the Traveller Limited Edition
>Hardcover haven't been finalized yet.  We will make an announcement as soon
>as everything has been confirmed.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a collection of existing Traveller
>items.  It will be sold through normal distribution and you can get it at
>your friendly local game store, or through Warehouse 23.  Just to clear up
>some confusion: no, it isn't preorder only.
>
>If there's anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me
>here at orders@sjgames.com.

Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
the word out.

We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.

The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
through the normal FLGS channels.



Loren



--__--__--

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:21:03 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 11:47 AM 4/29/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
>them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
>the word out.
>
>We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
>and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses
out.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
>through the normal FLGS channels.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf 
shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


--__--__--

Message: 13
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] (no subject)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:16 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry

> I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



--__--__--

Message: 14
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:40:58 +0000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Brilliant!  I love it."


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  Please have fun using it in your campaigns.  You can 
see from the GM-imposed hardware/software/manning requirements that it was a

definite "fun quotient" tweak.

     "This should become part of canon, methinks."

     Nope, that's going way too far.  This is absolutely a MTU/YTU rule 
only.  Besides, I got a sneaking suspicion that many folks already have 
something like it in their TUs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:55:27 -0500
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
>--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is

>> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR
TREK 
>> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>> >>>officer."
>
>This was true in the original series, but not in the
>later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
>was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
>were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Again, TNG was also "officer-only" for its first couple of seasons.  And
Colm Meany's character was clearly an officer (specifically a Lt).  It was
only post-Rodenberry where they introduce enlisted personel and "redefined"
Colm Meany's character into the enlisted O'Brien.

Mike West


--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:48:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:48:00 2002
Subject: [TML] From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22737@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>

At 03:38 PM 4/29/02 -0400, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
>"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
> >circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
> >there prospective writers?
>
> >2.(re-Traveller Novel)So; supposing we serialized it in =
> >the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?
>
>Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?
[big honking snip]

request #1:  Please do not include the entire digest for a one line reply.

request #1:  Please do not send 'styled' text to the list.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 14:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 13:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with reprint of Double Adventures...
Message-ID: <20020429.130950.-72731.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:20:50 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> Donald McKinney says
> >Ok, I spilled a dark substance on page 1 of the "Stranded on 
> >Arden" adventure in my *NEW* reprints book.
> >
> 
> Ah, the dreaded Coffee...
> ________________
> NO! Sentence first, verdict after!

Guilty!

On old books it's forgiveable, but never on new...

Make him walk the plank Captain, arrgh.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 14:16:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 13:16:11 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020429.130950.-72731.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Paul

On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
> on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
> year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
> could prescribe that for our good General?
> 
> 
> --- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
>  > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
>
 > Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> > and my disability
> > pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.

Ah, thanks Paul, it's such a nice jesture.

Perhaps I could stow aboard a freighter?

ObTrav:
So just how could you get off world in my case?
I can't work.
I need assistance.
My funds are tied to this world mandating that I stick around or I don't
get paid.

 Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 15:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Mon Apr 29 14:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
References: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ccd9cd0.1320581@post.demon.co.uk>

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:


>To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently=20
>'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a =
lake=20
>have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in =
prison=20
>for perjury (telling lies in court).
>Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the=20
>prisons are too overcrowded"...

What's your argument regarding the politician?  That since we all know
politicians are liars anyway, nobody should be surprised or offended
if they tell lies in court as well?  Even if the politician in
question deliberately falsified his testimony in order to win a libel
case and thereby secure 6- or7-figure financial damages from the other
party?  Seems to me that's a far worse crime than simple mugging or
car theft...

Also, if you can point me to any real case in any country in the world
where a person accused of rape did not stand trial because "the jails
are full", I'd like to hear it.  I know some countries have "prison
amnesties", and others have been known to extend schemes for parole
and early release, but that's for tried and convicted criminals who
have already served part of their sentence... and I doubt that the
scheme would extend to such a serious crime as rape.  But I'm willing
to be proved wrong if you have evidence.

ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
request.  He states that he is currently engaged in a messy divorce,
and it would be very helpful to his case if the players were willing
to swear that he was having dinner with them on a particular evening.
He offers a generous financial inducement to do this, and suggests to
the players that they should make a formal written deposition before a
lawyer then leave planet.  He promises to only use the deposition if
his wife's lawyers raise that particular evening in court.

If the players agree, then on their next visit to the world (which
might not be for a significant time), they discover that the
politician is still happily married, and won a multi-million credit
settlement in a libel case against a media organisation - thanks
entirely to their (false) evidence.  Do they:

a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
b)  Report the case to the authorities?
c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?

Of course, the problem is that their own involvement in the case was
criminal;  and the politician is a highly respected member of the
governing party and personal friend of the planet's leader.  The media
group that lost the case is keen for redress and could help them, but
it is also running scared of the politician's influence having been
burned once already.  Can the players prove their side of the story?
(Perhaps they can gain access to CCTV camera footage of the night in
question <g> ?)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 16:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 15:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Advanced Battle Armor
Message-ID: <f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39@aol.com>

--part1_f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Hi gang, while surfing the WWweb, I found mention of an article in JTAS 
#3, apparently by a Bob Barger (? I'm having a heck of a time reading my own 
scrawl), called Advanced Battle Armor (?).
   If someone has that issue handy, could they share the particulars?
   Thanks :)
  -Ken Murphy-

--part1_f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi gang, while surfing the WWweb, I found mention of an article in JTAS #3, apparently by a Bob Barger (? I'm having a heck of a time reading my own scrawl), called Advanced Battle Armor (?).
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;If someone has that issue handy, could they share the particulars?
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 17:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Star Trek
Message-ID: <15b.d29cb96.29ff2d05@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/29/2002 2:02:37 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
>Bakula...

You kids today . . .              :  )

I did this once before -- isn't in the archives someplace?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 18:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr 29 17:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3ccd9cd0.1320581@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000201c1efdf$ca99b120$0b01a8c0@duck>

> ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
> world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
> request.  He states that he is currently engaged in a messy divorce,
> and it would be very helpful to his case if the players were willing
> to swear that he was having dinner with them on a particular evening.
> He offers a generous financial inducement to do this, and suggests to
> the players that they should make a formal written deposition before a
> lawyer then leave planet.  He promises to only use the deposition if
> his wife's lawyers raise that particular evening in court.
> 
> If the players agree, then on their next visit to the world (which
> might not be for a significant time), they discover that the
> politician is still happily married, and won a multi-million credit
> settlement in a libel case against a media organisation - thanks
> entirely to their (false) evidence.  Do they:
> 
> a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
> b)  Report the case to the authorities?
> c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?
> 
> Of course, the problem is that their own involvement in the case was
> criminal;  and the politician is a highly respected member of the
> governing party and personal friend of the planet's leader.  The media
> group that lost the case is keen for redress and could help them, but
> it is also running scared of the politician's influence having been
> burned once already.  Can the players prove their side of the story?
> (Perhaps they can gain access to CCTV camera footage of the night in
> question <g> ?)

[I hate to use the whole thing for such a short answer, but I wanted to
keep the context.]

Considering the deal the players made in the first place, a sudden
attack of ethics would seem to be a bit out of place.  They willingly
lied and got paid for it.  Seems pretty bizarre that they would care
that the politician used it for different purposes.

Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 19:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 18:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <20020429.182302.-125801.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:41:39 -0500 "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
writes:
> > ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
> > world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
> > request.  
<snipage>
> > a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
> > b)  Report the case to the authorities?
> > c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?
> > 
> 
> Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
> now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?
> 
> Mike West

Though up front I'd agree and choose [a], if looking deeper I could
choose [c].

My assumption is:
1. The players are already involved in a blackmail scheme against the
politician's wife.
Why?
Money.
If they had scruples, they wouldn't have taken the credits in the first
place.

2. The politician received a huge settlement.
A or some of the players bent on greed may have spent their credits, and
now want more to keep quiet.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 20:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr 29 19:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <20020429.182302.-125801.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>

generalturokan@juno.com
> On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:41:39 -0500 "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
> writes:
> > > ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
> > > world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
> > > request.  
> <snipage>
> > > a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
> > > b)  Report the case to the authorities?
> > > c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?
> > > 
> > 
> > Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
> > now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?
> 
> Though up front I'd agree and choose [a], if looking deeper I could
> choose [c].
> 
> My assumption is:
> 1. The players are already involved in a blackmail scheme against the
> politician's wife.
> Why?
> Money.
> If they had scruples, they wouldn't have taken the credits in the first
> place.
> 
> 2. The politician received a huge settlement.
> A or some of the players bent on greed may have spent their credits, and
> now want more to keep quiet.

I have to admit that I did have the assumption that the politician was
continuing to be friendly to them.  If so, I still stick with [a].  If,
however, the politician becomes hostile for some reason, then I completely
agree that [c] is quite appropriate.

The problem is that if the players pick [c], they probably need to add
that planet to their list of places to avoid for a while.  If they chose
[a], the planet could quite possibly be a good destination, instead.

I do want to note that I think we both agree that [b] is quite pointless.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 20:42:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 19:42:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <20020429.182302.-125801.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020429224441.00e45840@buffnet.net>

Of course, were I that politician, I'd consider the fact that *all* of the
potential loose ends can be tied up neatly together, by exploding a bit of
cheap missile weaponry upon the ship...  (and it would look like piracy
too!)  At the very least, pay a bomber to bomb the ship through a cutout on
the grounds of "insurance"...

;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 21:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 20:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <20020429.203207.-125683.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 22:44:41 -0400 hal@buffnet.net writes:
> Of course, were I that politician, I'd consider the fact that *all* 
> of the
> potential loose ends can be tied up neatly together, by exploding a 
> bit of
> cheap missile weaponry upon the ship...  (and it would look like 
> piracy
> too!)  At the very least, pay a bomber to bomb the ship through a 
> cutout on
> the grounds of "insurance"...
> 
> ;)
> 

Ooooo, nice closing touch. The politician takes the lead.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 23:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr 29 22:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <20413.122049.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429160538.02a58ab0@mail.qrc.com>

At 08:59 PM 4/21/02, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
> > Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
> > Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system.
>
>All i am reporting is what the average user, the "plug & pray" type, have 
>told me in the shop.

In my humble opinion, this is the difference between someone in Traveller 
with computer skill, and someone who doesn't.  I assume that someone who is 
from a moderate tech or higher (TL-8+) background can use a computer for 
normal sorts of activities (word processing, looking up references, etc.) 
without computer skill, and without needing to make a roll to operate the 
computer.  On the other hand, "unusual" use of the computer - bypassing 
security restrictions, reading nonstandard files or media, finding 
information that was deliberately obscured, obscuring information that you 
don't want people to find, and that sort of thing are what Computer skill 
is for.

>That some of the Os is put on the disk in what I know as track and 
>sectors. I was told that the track and sectors for this information change 
>with the upgrades.

All operating systems (that I'm aware of) organize a disk into tracks and 
sectors (or cylinders, heads, and sectors which is basically the same 
thing).  For floppy disks, the newer operating systems have more options 
than the old ones, but all are "upward compatible" - the new operating 
system knows how to read the older format.  If you have an old floppy, as 
long as the media hasn't physically degraded, Windows XP can read a disk 
formatted and written from an old 286-based Windows 2 machine.  And Office 
XP can read the Word for Windows file format.

>Therefore this is a reason why newer systems have trouble or can't read
>the older disks.

The usual reason isn't incompatibility but media degradation.  Floppy disks 
were never intended for archival storage of data; they're better than many 
forms of magnetic tape, but aren't going to last forever.  When I worked 
for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, we had a tape 
library that contained satellite data for US weather satellites (going back 
to the first data sent from the very first, in the 1950's).  As part of the 
maintenance of the library, tapes were pulled for check reads (once every 5 
or 10 years, I believe) and any that had begun to degrade were re-recorded 
onto new media.

If you've got computer data that you want to store for the long haul, right 
now the best bet is to burn it to a CD-ROM.  Unlike floppies, the CD-ROM 
file format is a world-wide standard published by the International 
Standards Organization.  It works a lot like I envisioned Traveller media 
standards.  There is a published standard that is available to anyone who 
cares to read it that sets out exactly what is required to read (or write) 
audio or data to a CD-ROM - from the composition of the media all the way 
through the organization of the data.  Any computer that supports CD-ROM 
drives, can read an ISO disk.  Some - mainly those with Microsoft operating 
systems - can write other formats as well; those disks only work with 
compatible Microsoft operating systems.

>I would think that there are Imperial standards for navigation. Set 
>probably by the ISS.

I'd say that the IISS (and in particular the Imperial Grand Survey) has a 
standard format for navigational data, and probably a small number of 
different media that they support.  Thus, there may be thousands of 
different manufacturers of starship avionics in the Imperium, and thousands 
more software houses that write navigational software.  But they can all 
read IISS navigational data, and they all come equipped with an Imperial 
data reader that can read at least one of the media types that the IISS 
supports.

The same goes for basic data transfer of other types.  The IISS (in this 
case via the Express Boat network) has a set of standard formats and media 
types for messages: text, audio, still image, video, holo, and probably a 
couple of other formats for data that is commonly transferred over the 
Xboat network.  A good model for this is the venerable GIF format for 
pictures - it was promulgated by Compuserve, back in the day, much the same 
way that the Xboat system would promulgate standard data formats in the 
Imperium.  Even though Compuserve is now gone, the GIF format still endures 
- and almost any computer can read it.

> > The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
> > either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
> > to import and export files in those formats.
>
>In Traveller, on frontiere worlds that are doing their own thing. This 
>could grow into a sense of "National" pride. Or the thought of being 
>"forced" into
>something.

IMTU, this sort of compatibility isn't forced on manufacturers by 
legislation.  The standards are made available by the IISS (for free or a 
very nominal price) to anyone who asks for them, and don't incorporate any 
proprietary technology or techniques - so that anyone who reads and 
understands the standard can build hardware or software that's 
compatible.  There's no legal requirement that anyone do so ... BUT there's 
also a strong disincentive in the market.  If two computers are available, 
both of which can read both the "local" formats and media, but only one of 
which can talk to Imperially-based navigation, news, and Xboat traffic 
systems, which one will eventually win in the market place?  Particularly 
if there is no significant cost difference?  There may well be local file 
and media formats - but sooner or later, everyone will be able to read the 
Imperial formats one way or another.

However, this is an on-going process: worlds that recently developed the 
technology, or were recently incorporated into the Imperial interstellar 
economy, are likely to be in transition, with the market forces still 
sorting things out.


>  Still I suspect that there is something going on in the
>computer line. Where the files are sent say from the x-boat to panet and
>revers. Where it is translated to the usable format for the receptor of
>the information.
>
> > Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
> > equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
> > finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice.
>
>  Myself, I am working on converting PET to geoWrite 2.1 then converting
>the final output to Ascii for upload to the places I write for through the
>Inet. I can do the revese and prefere to do all my writing in GeoWrite 2.1
>Takes just a few minutes to convert back and forth. Perhaps that is a
>thought for the Imperial mail at least. Though expanded for images and
>text for the local systems.
>
>BCNU
>
>--
>  *****
>******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
>**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
>**            Chancellor & Editor for
>**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
>******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
>  *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 00:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 29 23:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3ccd9cd0.1320581@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20429.214428.7c5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Also, if you can point me to any real case in any country in the world
> where a person accused of rape did not stand trial because "the jails
> are full", I'd like to hear it.  I know some countries have "prison
> amnesties", and others have been known to extend schemes for parole
> and early release, but that's for tried and convicted criminals who
> have already served part of their sentence... and I doubt that the
> scheme would extend to such a serious crime as rape.  But I'm willing
> to be proved wrong if you have evidence.

The local jails are having to release a *lot* of folks *before* trial
and hope they show up for trial due to the need to have space available
if there are riots this May Day.

There *are* rules for who gets released bnased on some sort of "points"
assigned at booking.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 01:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 30 00:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
Message-ID: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

This has become something of a TML tradition.  Every April 30, someone posts
this to the TML. This time, it's me.

##########

This battle took place on the 30th of April 1863, during the campaign of
Mexico. It is celebrated each year, on the anniversary of this date, by all
the regiments of the French Foreign Legion.

History: 

The French Army was besieging Puebla.

The mission of the Legion was to ensure the movement and safety of the
convoys, over an 80 mile distance. On the 29th of April 1863, Colonel
Jeanningros was informed that an important convoy was on its way to Puebla,
with a load of 3 million francs, and material and munitions for the seige.
Captain Danjou, his quartermaster, decided to send a company to escort the
convoy. The 3rd company of the Foreign Regiment was assigned to this
mission, but had no officers available. So Captain Danjou, himself, took the
command and 2nd lieutenants Maudet, company guide, and Vilain, the
paymaster, joined him voluntarily.

On the 30th of April, at 1 a.m., the 3rd company was on its way, with its 3
officers and 62 men. At 7 a.m., after a 15 mile march, it stopped at Palo
Verde in order to get some rest. At this very moment, the enemy showed up
and the battle began. Captain Danjou made the company take up a square
formation and, even though retreating, he victoriously drove back several
cavalry charges, inflicting the first heavy losses on the enemy .

By the inn of Camerone, a large building with a courtyard protected by a
wall 3 meters high, Danjou decided to stay, in order to keep the enemy and
so delay for as long as possible, any attacks on the convoy.

While the legionnaires were rapidly setting up the defense of the inn, a
Mexican officer demanded that Captain Danjou surrender, pointing out the
fact that the Mexican Army was greatly superior in number.

Danjou's answer was: "We have munitions. We will not surrender." Then, he
swore to fight to the death and made his men swear the same. It was 10 a.m.
Until 6 p.m., these 60 men who had had nothing to eat or drink since the day
before, in spite of the extreme heat, of the thirst and hunger, resisted
against 2,000 Mexicans: 800 cavalry and 1,200 infantry.

At noon, Captain Danjou was shot in the chest and died. At 2 p.m., 2nd
lieutenant Vilain was shot in the head. About this time, the Mexican colonel
succeeded in setting the inn on fire.

In spite of the heat and the smoke, the legionnaires resisted, but many of
them were killed or injured. By 5 p.m., only 12 men could still fight with
2nd lieutenant Maudet. At this time, the Mexican colonel gathered his
soldiers and told them what disgrace it would be if they were unable to
defeat such a small number of men. The Mexicans were about to give the
general assault through holes opened in the walls of the courtyard, but
Colonel Milan, who had previously asked 2nd lieutenant Maudet to surrender,
once again gave him the opportunity to. Maudet scornfully refused.

The final charge was given. Soon, only 5 men were left around Maudet;
Corporal Maine, legionnaires Catteau, Wensel, Constantin and Leonard. Each
had only one bullet left. In a corner of the courtyard, their back against
the wall, still facing the enemy, they fixed bayonets. When the signal was
given, they opened fire and fought with their bayonets. 2nd lieutenant
Maudet and 2 legionnaires fell, mortally wounded. Maine and his 2 remaining
companions were about to be slaughtered when a Mexican officer saved them.
He shouted: "Surrender"!

"We will only if you promise to allow us to carry and care for our injured
men and if you leave us our guns".

"Nothing can be refused to men like you"!, answered the officer.

Captain Danjou's men had kept their promise; for 11 hours, they had resisted
2,000 enemy troops. They had killed 300 of them and had injured as many.
Their sacrifice had saved the convoy and they had fulfilled their mission.

Emperor Napoleon the 3rd decided that the name of Camerone would be written
on the flag of the Foreign Regiment and the names of Danjou, Vilain and
Maudet would be engraved in golden letters on the walls of the Invalides, in
Paris. 

Moreover, a monument was built in 1892, at the very place of the fight. The
following inscription can be read there :

HERE, THEY WERE LESS THAN SIXTY
AGAINST A WHOLE ARMY
ITS MASS CRUSHED THEM
BUT LIFE RATHER THAN COURAGE
ABANDONED THESE FRENCH SOLDIERS
THE 30TH OF APRIL 1863.
TO THEIR MEMORY THE NATION BUILT THIS MONUMENT.

Since then, when Mexican troops pass by the monument, they present arms.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 03:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 02:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Seems to me that the TML is very quiet right now... I was getting hundreds
of posts a couple of weeks back.

Anyway, here's how things stand here:

Traveller's Aide #1 is out, #2 is in layout. We have drafts for 3-5 more due
in over the next few days. Depending what order they come in, the next
volumes will include a sourcebook on ground vehicles, a ready-NPC book and
an adventure. All CT compatible as well as T20, as usual.

Question is, what do folks want?

All our materials will be T20 compatible - that's a necessity - but we have
the leeway to support CT and the entire Traveller timeline. That means: CT
adventures set in the Marches or the Rim, major sourcebooks on.... whatever.
We're open to suggestions. Tell us what you want from the product line, and
we'll see what we can do....

Regards

MJD







From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 03:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 02:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <01af01c1f02a$4016c010$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Comments are invited...

Some time ago Marc and I began work on a Traveller/naval SF novel. It had a
different title back then but now it's called "The Last Hurrah". Set in the
Interstellar Wars, it was going to be the Traveller Novel, but it seems more
sensible to set a print novel in the "current" Traveller universe. That
leaves Last Hurrah as a bit of an orphan.

Now, what I'm thinking of doing is serializing it as part of the Quiklink
line (but separate from the Traveller's Aide series), as a series of PDFs of
LBB size (say 20,000 words each).

Consider this market research; I need to know if it's worth editing,
reformatting and such like before doing it (very busy right now, as you
might guess).

One note: Marc hasn't got time to work on this; although he co-authored the
early chapters (and had a LOT of creative input), this is not the great Marc
Miller novel. I don't want to mislead anyone on that score.

But anyway: The Last Hurrah is about a band of Terran naval officers during
the Interstellar Wars. I don't want to give much more away than that, but I
might be willing to post the Prologue on the Quiklink site....








Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 04:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 03:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Reviews
Message-ID: <01d301c1f02e$1765e480$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Here's an offer for you...

We're looking for reviewers... and we've got bribes.

We're offering $25 worth of Quiklink Products (*anything* Quiklink sells) to
the first three reviewers to post their comments to the TML.

Here's how it works:

If you're interested, mail me direct. We'll give you a free copy of
Traveller's Aide #1. Once your review is posted, you can cash in your Cr25
for anything Quiklink has to offer.

There are a couple of requirements though:

1. the review must be longer than "it sucks" or even "it sets off
decompression alarms"
2. we'd like to be able to repost the review elsewhere as needed

If you're interested, let me know ASAP.




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 04:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 03:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020316084747.B31496@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20430.013319.6P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Another oldie getting replied to.

In mail you write:

> Daniel Tackett wrote:
>
>> > to (as I recall) *50* times the mass. 
>
>> I hate to butt in, but out of curiosity. Could a gas
>> giant that large be skimmed?
>
> Not a chance, unless your tech greatly exceeds Traveller levels.
> Either you skim at orbital velocities, which are huge and hence you
> get *really hot*, or not, in which case you immediately fall due to
> insufficient thrust.
>
>
>> I find it hard to believe that a gas giant of any size
>> could be skimmed considering the pull of gravity.
>
> In Traveller, some ships could probably cope with up to 3 Jupiter
> masses.  Specialised unmanned skimming 'missiles' could cope with up
> to about 10.

Don't forget that gas giants more massive than Jupiter will be
*smaller*. Which means that gravity at "skimming altitude" will be even
stronger than the simple mass increase would indicate.

Any of the astronomers on the list have even a *rough* formula or table
for the way gas giant diameter varies with mass?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
In-Reply-To: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>

At 10:13 AM 4/30/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>Seems to me that the TML is very quiet right now... I was getting hundreds
>of posts a couple of weeks back.
>Anyway, here's how things stand here:
>Traveller's Aide #1 is out, #2 is in layout. We have drafts for 3-5 more due
>in over the next few days. Depending what order they come in, the next
>volumes will include a sourcebook on ground vehicles, a ready-NPC book and
>an adventure. All CT compatible as well as T20, as usual.
>Question is, what do folks want?
>All our materials will be T20 compatible - that's a necessity - but we have
>the leeway to support CT and the entire Traveller timeline. That means: CT
>adventures set in the Marches or the Rim, major sourcebooks on.... whatever.
>We're open to suggestions. Tell us what you want from the product line, and
>we'll see what we can do....

I really like the CT compatibility.  I'm in several PBEMs that use CT.

Hmm...the Marches are really nice, but how about some RIM and Reavers' Deep 
material first.
Lots of stuff out already for the Marches.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine.
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020429.130950.-72731.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020430121047.21439.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

You do lots of volunteer data entry for the TAS and
hope to get paid with a free membership, then you only
need to scrape enough money together to eat.  TAS
gives you a high passage per month, plus lodging.  Of
course, you may be stuck somewhere undesireable for a
month until you get your next HiPsg.

Paul


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> ObTrav:
> So just how could you get off world in my case?
> I can't work.
> I need assistance.
> My funds are tied to this world mandating that I
> stick around or I don't
> get paid.
> 
>  Turokan



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <3cce7ff8.11067789@post.demon.co.uk>

"Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com> writes:

>I have to admit that I did have the assumption that the politician was
>continuing to be friendly to them.  If so, I still stick with [a].  If,
>however, the politician becomes hostile for some reason, then I =
completely
>agree that [c] is quite appropriate.

Actually, my assumption was that the politician had pretty much
forgotten their existence - they were off-worlders who were useful to
him for a while, got paid off and left town.
>
>The problem is that if the players pick [c], they probably need to add
>that planet to their list of places to avoid for a while.  If they chose
>[a], the planet could quite possibly be a good destination, instead.
>
>I do want to note that I think we both agree that [b] is quite =
pointless.

In the real-life situation this is based on, the person giving the
politician the original alibi chose (b).  Go figure...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <025b01c1f042$9094c060$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> I really like the CT compatibility.  I'm in several PBEMs that use CT.
>
> Hmm...the Marches are really nice, but how about some RIM and Reavers'
Deep
> material first.
> Lots of stuff out already for the Marches.

Sounds cool. Anyone care to write some?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 07:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Apr 30 06:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <F218qk0qcITzSOFI3Jz00003ef4@hotmail.com>

OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?


>From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] (no subject)
>Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:16 -0400
>
>http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
>
> > I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> > shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!
>
>



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 30 06:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <F218qk0qcITzSOFI3Jz00003ef4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCELIDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Ummm.... Avery!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Andrew MacLintock
>
> OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?
>
> >From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
> >
> >http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> >
> > > I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> > > shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 07:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 06:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
In-Reply-To: <025b01c1f042$9094c060$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430094632.00b85cb0@urbin.net>

At 01:28 PM 4/30/02 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > I really like the CT compatibility.  I'm in several PBEMs that use CT.
> > Hmm...the Marches are really nice, but how about some RIM and Reavers'
>Deep
> > material first.
> > Lots of stuff out already for the Marches.
>Sounds cool. Anyone care to write some?

There was a lot of material written for Reavers' Deep by the TNE Pocket group.
The Deep was the domain of the Keith Brothers, and we had permission from 
them to update for TNE.

Some members of that group (like myself) are still on the TML.
Material from there could be published pretty much 'as is' for TNE.

For other era'/timelines, it could be modified.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 08:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 07:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020430094632.00b85cb0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <02a701c1f050$eed3c370$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> There was a lot of material written for Reavers' Deep by the TNE Pocket
group.
> The Deep was the domain of the Keith Brothers, and we had permission from
> them to update for TNE.
>
> Some members of that group (like myself) are still on the TML.
> Material from there could be published pretty much 'as is' for TNE.
>
> For other era'/timelines, it could be modified.
>

I think I'd like to see this.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 08:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue Apr 30 07:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (sorta OT) Fw: [FT] Naval Manpower
Message-ID: <006a01c1f04d$29923400$1f9e15ac@warrior>

I think you guys can figure out the obtrav for this one :)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Donogh McCarthy" <donoghmc@hotmail.com>
To: <gzg@firedrake.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:15 AM
Subject: [FT] Naval Manpower


>
>
> Interesting article on Northrops new naval designs
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5236-2002Apr29.html
>
> In relation to the new Destroyer Class design it states:
>
> "Under the plan, sailors' standard of living also would be drastically
> improved. For example, three-tier bunk beds would be replaced with
> staterooms shared by as many as three sailors and outfitted with computers
> and Internet connections. Crew sizes would drop from 300 to 125, then
> eventually to 95. "It allows the Navy to free up a lot of resources,"
> [defense analyst Jay] Korman said.
>
> Questions arising from this:
>
> 1. What kind of % of total personnel is there is each area of operations
on
> board a military naval vessel?
>
> 2. Presumably there as some tasks manpower is always needed for, that
can't
> be automated. What kind of tasks would these be, and what plausible sci-fi
> elements could lead to these being done by automation?
>
> 3. Also presumably you need 2-3 times the number of people needed to do
all
> the jobs. Does anyone see this aspect of crew requirments as ever being
able
> to change?
>
> 4. Would crew comfort, health etc. be a bigger concern in space, and would
> this lead to larger vessels or smaller crews; or shorter deployment times?
>
> Any thoughts?
> Donogh
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 08:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 07:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
In-Reply-To: <02a701c1f050$eed3c370$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020430094632.00b85cb0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430104838.00b887e0@urbin.net>

At 03:11 PM 4/30/02 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > There was a lot of material written for Reavers' Deep by the TNE Pocket
>group.
> > The Deep was the domain of the Keith Brothers, and we had permission from
> > them to update for TNE.
> > Some members of that group (like myself) are still on the TML.
> > Material from there could be published pretty much 'as is' for TNE.
> > For other era'/timelines, it could be modified.
>I think I'd like to see this.

I have the full archives squirrelled away somewhere, plus they are also 
online, somewhere, in compressed format.

For a start, take a look at some my stuff:

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/sa-sc.html>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/rangetruck.html>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/tl5-6_seaplane.html>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/Venice_data.htm>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
Message-ID: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>

--part1_15e.cff6a74.2a000c32_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Folks,

Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/

The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
product line.

For those of you who are JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in
Brubek's on Wednesday evening to discuss the changes and what they
mean for the fan community. There should be another chat next week if
you can't make the May 1 one. Both Loren and I subscribe to this mailing
list too, so we're available for any discussions.

Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be working with Loren and Marc
Miller on the continued development of the Traveller universe. Traveller has
been a favorite of mine for over twenty years, so the chance to contribute in
this fashion is very gratifying.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_15e.cff6a74.2a000c32_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Folks,
<BR>
<BR>Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:
<BR>
<BR>http://www.sjgames.com/ill/
<BR>
<BR>The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
<BR>Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
<BR>will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
<BR>product line.
<BR>
<BR>For those of you who are JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in
<BR>Brubek's on Wednesday evening to discuss the changes and what they
<BR>mean for the fan community. There should be another chat next week if
<BR>you can't make the May 1 one. Both Loren and I subscribe to this mailing
<BR>list too, so we're available for any discussions.
<BR>
<BR>Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be working with Loren and Marc
<BR>Miller on the continued development of the Traveller universe. Traveller has
<BR>been a favorite of mine for over twenty years, so the chance to contribute in
<BR>this fashion is very gratifying.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_15e.cff6a74.2a000c32_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Thanks!
Message-ID: <l03010d06b8f46090bf4e@[206.224.92.67]>

As I do every Quarter, I would like to thank the gentlesophonts on the TML
for ordering books and stuff from Amazon.com through the link on my web
page.

For those who don't know, I get a 5% bounty on almost anything you order
provided you use the button on

http://www.lorenwiseman.com

Scroll down, hit the button (which will take you to Amazon) and then order
normally. It doesn't cost you anything extra (except a little time), and
you will help subsidize my reading habit. If you are going to buy something
through Amazon anyway, why not toss me a little something extra?

LKW



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
References: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02ed01c1f05a$50cf4b90$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_02EA_01C1F062.9FF0E370
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to=20
Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and=20
will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the=20
product line.=20

For those of you who are JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in=20
Brubek's on Wednesday evening to discuss the changes and what they=20
mean for the fan community. There should be another chat next week if=20
you can't make the May 1 one. Both Loren and I subscribe to this mailing =

list too, so we're available for any discussions.=20

Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be working with Loren and Marc =

Miller on the continued development of the Traveller universe. Traveller =
has=20
been a favorite of mine for over twenty years, so the chance to =
contribute in=20
this fashion is very gratifying.=20



***** Stands up and cheers ******

That's great. Not only good guys at the helm but it shows a commitment =
to the GT line at SJG.

Okay, back to work now,,,,

Regards

MJD

------=_NextPart_000_02EA_01C1F062.9FF0E370
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>The executive summary =
is that Loren=20
Wiseman is being promoted to <BR>Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. =
I've=20
been named Line Editor and <BR>will be assisting Loren with planning and =

day-to-day management of the <BR>product line. <BR><BR>For those of you =
who are=20
JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in <BR>Brubek's on Wednesday =
evening=20
to discuss the changes and what they <BR>mean for the fan community. =
There=20
should be another chat next week if <BR>you can't make the May 1 one. =
Both Loren=20
and I subscribe to this mailing <BR>list too, so we're available for any =

discussions. <BR><BR>Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be =
working with=20
Loren and Marc <BR>Miller on the continued development of the Traveller=20
universe. Traveller has <BR>been a favorite of mine for over twenty =
years, so=20
the chance to contribute in <BR>this fashion is very gratifying.=20
<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>***** Stands up and =
cheers=20
******</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>That's great. Not only =
good guys at=20
the helm but it shows a commitment to the GT line at =
SJG.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>Okay, back to work=20
now,,,,</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2>Regards</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT=20
size=3D2>MJD</DIV></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_02EA_01C1F062.9FF0E370--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
In-Reply-To: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020430083905.009f8430@mindspring.com>

At 12:27 AM 4/30/02 -0700, you wrote:
>HERE, THEY WERE LESS THAN SIXTY
>AGAINST A WHOLE ARMY
>ITS MASS CRUSHED THEM
>BUT LIFE RATHER THAN COURAGE
>ABANDONED THESE FRENCH SOLDIERS
>THE 30TH OF APRIL 1863.
>TO THEIR MEMORY THE NATION BUILT THIS MONUMENT.

We used to have this read to us in the Army.  Someday, I want to visit the 
monument.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML Haiku
Message-ID: <200204301610.FII07851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

This one is a "generic combat", but I'm sure some of you have 
ObTrav haiku you've thought of.  They don't have to be combat 
oriented, either

Red streak of tracers
Steady thump of machinegun
Splintering tree limbs
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:14:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:14:08 2002
Subject: [TML] More TML Haiku
Message-ID: <200204301613.FII08329@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ok, one more ObTrav

Sparkling laser beams
Tinny sound of suit alarm
Hissing air escapes
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] just one more
Message-ID: <200204301628.FIK01334@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

And for those of you standing on the surface of a gas giant's 
moon....

Gleaming arc of rings
Frozen nitrogen crunches
Boots leave my footprints
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:38:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:38:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <F12ZUr3CrJRxKZMqA4d00004f37@hotmail.com>

In mail, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> rightly points out that...

<SNIP>
...the entire basis of our court system is people telling the truth in 
court...
</SNIP>

That wasn't the point though.  The point was supposed to be a commentary on 
the British (In)Justice system.
If he had killed a six-year-old girl standing on a pavement (sidewalk) next 
to a pedestrian crossing whilst he was driving under the influence of 
alcohol, he would have been given a GB250 fine and a three month suspended 
sentence.
But because he (shock, horror) omitted to tell the *whole* truth and 
slightly 'bent' what truth he did tell in a libel case against a national 
newspaper, he gets a five year jail sentence.


<SNIP>
...I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.
</SNIP>

Make the punishment fit the crime.  The "gentleman" in question did not 
physically hurt anyone, or steal from them.  He was not a danger to the 
public.
If his lies had resulted in people being hurt then yes, jail him.  All this 
has done is make more people realise what a stupid bunch of incompetent 
jerks we have for judges in England.
Another example, a judge sentenced a young man (I think the charge was 
disturbing the peace - again, nobody suffered physically) to something like 
a GB1500 fine, and then refused to believe the kid was only getting 
something like GB100 a week in wages stacking shelves at the local 
supermarket.  The supermarket manager had to provide their salary and tax 
records before the judge would believe it...

Jeff.
"Take cover?  Why, he can't hit us from over th..."

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML Haiku
In-Reply-To: <200204301610.FII07851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020430093325.009e8330@mindspring.com>

At 12:10 PM 4/30/02 -0400, you wrote:
>This one is a "generic combat", but I'm sure some of you have
>ObTrav haiku you've thought of.  They don't have to be combat
>oriented, either

Traveller Mail List
Three hundred in the mail box
Reading all morning

Near-C rock flame again?
This argument never ends
Perhaps piracy?

Free trader jumping
Laughs at the laws of physics
Boring week in here

Bright career in Scouts
Hoping for my own Type S
3? Damn, I have died!

Sex and politics
Tend to dominate the list
Find ObTrav, stat!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:48:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:48:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <200204301644.FIK03907@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Jeff Rowse" says
>Make the punishment fit the crime.  The "gentleman" =
in =

>question did not physically hurt anyone, or steal from =

>them.  He was not a danger to the public.
>If his lies had resulted in=
 people being hurt then yes, jail =

>him.  All this has done is make more people realise what a =

>stupid bunch of incompetent jerks we have for judges in =

>England.
>Another example, a judge sentenced a young man (I think the =
=

>charge was disturbing the peace - again, nobody suffered =

>physically) to something like a GB=A31500 fine, and then =

>refused to believe the kid was only getting =

>something like GB=A3100 a week in wages stacking shelves at =

>the local supermarket.  The supermarket manager had to =

>provide their salary and tax records before the judge would =

>believe it...
>

Drunken killer walks
Perjurer gets jail sentence
=
And this is justice?

________________
Sunlight on windows
Office bu=
ildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 11:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 10:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
In-Reply-To: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
References: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200204301320030096.0DA6983B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
>Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
>will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
>product line.

Congratulations to the both of you! Traveller continues to be well=
 represented at SJG!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 11:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 30 10:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] More TML Haiku
Message-ID: <20020430173521.6110.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

Not the best Haiku, but while we were at the topic...

Haiku are very strange
SciFi can be even stranger yet
Together seems fit

TML is quiet
Haiku can save the day here
Reading to think on

Paper, pens, and die
Two D6 thank you very much
All we need for fun

Marc, Loren, et al
You built a play universe
Thank you much for Trav


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:16:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:16:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
Message-ID: <memo.996438@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Thank you for keeping this fine tradition alive.

They always say that 2 dates are important to the French Foreign Legion - 
1863 and 1664.

We have just heard, as is right and proper, about 1863.

And 1664? - it's printed on the side of every can of Kronenburg beer, a 
favourite beverage amongst Legionnaires :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:19:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:19:01 2002
Subject: [TML] TML- Travellers' Aide
Message-ID: <memo.996439@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Greetings dear hearts.

I would like to see: -

Equipment - NOT just weapons, but the useful everyday stuff that players 
always want to acquire as they plan the next job, and you end up quickly 
calculating Travelleresque prices and descriptions around everyday items.

Medical (and recreational) drugs properly developed. And some good 
illnesses which the drugs can be used to treat... :-)

Well-detailed planets to visit. 

A fully-detailed starport (ground port or up port...).

Shops and businesses - how often do your players say "I'm looking for a 
clothes shop or a coffee bar" and you have to make it up on the fly?

Just some thoughts...

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:23:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
Message-ID: <memo.996441@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
Hoo-yah!!!

Warmest congratulations and blessings for the future to both of you :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
Message-ID: <20020430184406.48777.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

Back in 97, when I was last in Trav, we were working
on THUDD.  Is THUDD still around?  If so, where is it
happening?  In the immortal words of #5, "Need more
input!"

Thanks for any info.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 13:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 12:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML- Travellers' Aide
In-Reply-To: <memo.996439@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430150810.00b84e80@urbin.net>

At 07:15 PM 4/30/02 +0100, Megan Robertson wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
>Greetings dear hearts.
>I would like to see: -
>Equipment - NOT just weapons, but the useful everyday stuff that players
>always want to acquire as they plan the next job, and you end up quickly
>calculating Travelleresque prices and descriptions around everyday items.

Ah yes...the standard kit collects.

Personal Computer & Personal Communications Units (Percomps & Percomms).
I like to combine the two into a single unit with multiple I/O interfaces 
starting at TL 8 and getting more feature rich and robust (and more 'shock 
resistant') as TLs rise.

Multitools: General, survival, electronic, etc.

Vacc suits and PLSS units at various TLs.  Showing the range between a TL A 
Rescue Ball and a TL F tailored (skin) vacc suit.

Field gear, survival gear, what the well dressed business soph on Regina is 
wearing this year.

Typical layout for a Naval Corpsman assigned to an Imperial Marine Rapid 
Response Force...

etc., etc.

>Medical (and recreational) drugs properly developed. And some good
>illnesses which the drugs can be used to treat... :-)
>
>Well-detailed planets to visit.
>
>A fully-detailed starport (ground port or up port...).
>
>Shops and businesses - how often do your players say "I'm looking for a
>clothes shop or a coffee bar" and you have to make it up on the fly?
>
>Just some thoughts...
>
>Hugs and kisses,
>
>Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
In-Reply-To: <20020430184406.48777.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CCEB33B.7146.D337F2@localhost>

Paul

As far as I know THUDD died shortly after GURPS Traveller came 
out and disputes about which design system to use started.  I am 
not sure of the details because I started lurking for the most part 
since G.T. came out.  Someone else might be able to help more.  


Tim

> Back in 97, when I was last in Trav, we were working
> on THUDD.  Is THUDD still around?  If so, where is it
> happening?  In the immortal words of #5, "Need more
> input!"
> 
> Thanks for any info.
> 
> Paul
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
In-Reply-To: <20020430184406.48777.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020198030.2060.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> Back in 97, when I was last in Trav, we were working
> on THUDD.  Is THUDD still around?

THUDDD died a long time ago; it looks like it went irregular in early 1998,
lost momentum, and seems to have died entirely by 2000.

There was a ship-building contest on JTAS, but it seems to be being pretty
unreliable too.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020430.132748.-162959.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Paul

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> You do lots of volunteer data entry for the TAS and
> hope to get paid with a free membership, then you only
> need to scrape enough money together to eat.  TAS
> gives you a high passage per month, plus lodging.  Of
> course, you may be stuck somewhere undesireable for a
> month until you get your next HiPsg.

Ah yes, my word. The old perverbial "volunteer data entry for the TAS "
routine. Of course I might starve before then. NO, WAIT! I can eat at
Chaplain Bari's soup kitchen, yeah, that's the ticket.

Now if TAS will just drop me off in NZ I'll be fine, cash in my high
passage each month, no problem.

Turokan

>  --- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> > ObTrav:
> > So just how could you get off world in my case?
> > I can't work.
> > I need assistance.
> > My funds are tied to this world mandating that I
> > stick around or I don't
> > get paid.
> > 
> >  Turokan
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
Message-ID: <200204302040.FIS03034@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net  says
>As far as I know THUDD died shortly after GURPS Traveller 
>came out and disputes about which design system to use 
>started.  I am not sure of the details because I started 
>lurking for the most part since G.T. came out.  Someone else 
>might be able to help more.  
>

Maybe we should start THUDD again, but this time, have 
different rule divisions.  That way, people compete in the 
rule sets they want to compete in, rather than having 
to "eat" a single rule set.

I've noticed that everyone has their own favorite, so there's 
no sense in limiting us to one rule set.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 15:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 14:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.141101.-161815.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

TML'ers

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> You do lots of volunteer data entry for the TAS and
> hope to get paid with a free membership. 

Speaking of data entry, or writing of anything I would appreciate it If
you all would kindly try this out. It's how I actually type.

Place your right hand in front of your keyboard, fingers facing left,
palm up.
Now stand up.
Keeping your index finger against the front edge of your keyboard, hand
relaxed, begin typing ONLY using your right thumb.
The other catch - don't move your arm muscles, just shift your weight,
and type from shoulder shifting.
To use the shift key I can get my left thumb to hold it
down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My head is also limp, my chins buried in my chest.

That's it folks.

Turokan

> --- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> > ObTrav:
> > So just how could you get off world in my case?
> > I can't work.
> > I need assistance.
> > My funds are tied to this world mandating that I
> > stick around or I don't
> > get paid.
> > 
> >  Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 15:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Apr 30 14:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
In-Reply-To: <20020430.141101.-161815.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020430.141101.-161815.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <m3k7qo2891.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Do you use any accessibility tools?  I understand that most systems
come with the ability to have `sticky' keys--that is, shift acts like
a soft caps lock, or the shift on a Palm.  Tap shift once, and it's on
for one character; tap it twice, and it's on for good; tap it a third
time and it's off.  The same applies to ctrl and alt, of course.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
...It [the Mexican dictatorship] has demanded us to deliver up our arms,
which are essential for our defence, the rightful property of freemen,
and formidable only to tyrannical governments...
          --Texas Declaration of Independence

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 15:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 14:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20430.013319.6P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020316084747.B31496@freeman.little-possums.net> <20430.013319.6P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020501074423.A30174@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Any of the astronomers on the list have even a *rough* formula or
> table for the way gas giant diameter varies with mass?

Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
dwarf mass.  Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
increasing temperatures.  Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.

It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <01c301c1f096$8feb55d0$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

We've had considerable response to our request for reviewers. The 3 bribe
packages are long gone, and we have several more potential reviewers.

If you replied and I haven't been in touch yet, nudge me, will you? It's
late and I may have missed some.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 16:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 15:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Line Editor Haikus
Message-ID: <01c401c1f097$3104f160$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


New game book is out
QuikLink needs publicity
Asked the List for help

Many replies came
People wanting freebie book
Mailbox is now full




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 17:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 16:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.160031.-125169.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Robert

On 30 Apr 2002 15:20:58 -0600 ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
writes:
> Do you use any accessibility tools?

No, no ones showed me how.

>  I understand that most systems
> come with the ability to have `sticky' keys--that is, shift acts 
> like
> a soft caps lock, or the shift on a Palm.  Tap shift once, and it's 
> on
> for one character; tap it twice, and it's on for good; tap it a 
> third
> time and it's off.  The same applies to ctrl and alt, of course.

I've seen info in passing, but never looked into it in depth.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Tue Apr 30 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Line Editor Haikus
References: <01c401c1f097$3104f160$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <004301c1f09c$cd426710$9307b286@Shane>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> New game book is out
> QuikLink needs publicity
> Asked the List for help
> 
> Many replies came
> People wanting freebie book
> Mailbox is now full

Don't look at me man
Marketing plug not in vain
I bought the darn thing!
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Please take this credit card away from me
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 17:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Apr 30 16:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
In-Reply-To: <20020430.160031.-125169.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020430.160031.-125169.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <m3wuuo927f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

generalturokan@juno.com writes:

>
> > Do you use any accessibility tools?
> 
> No, no one's showed me how.

You should def. ask around.  They can really make life easier when
typing's a chore.

> I've seen info in passing, but never looked into it in depth.

In Linux, one can simply change the key definitions from Control to
SControl, Alt to SAlt, Shift to SShift.  There's also Morseall
<http://morseall.org/>, which allows one to tap out morse code on a
mouse button to control a text shell.

On Macs & Windows, there's a control panel which gives one that sort
of option.

I imagine that using a mouse is Right Out for you.  You may wish to
investigate a command-line only interface, as that is meant to be used
straight from the keyboard, and won't expect a mouse movement at an
inconvenient time.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Every man, woman, and responsible child has a natural, fundamental,
and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right
(within the limits of the Non-Aggression Principle) to obtain, own,
and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon--handgun, shotgun, rifle,
machinegun, anything--any time, anywhere, without asking anyone's
permission.                                       --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
Message-ID: <bc.25d5fa44.2a008f10@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?

Marc's evil twin Morc

LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:26:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:26:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: News
Message-ID: <10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8@aol.com>

--part1_10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:

> >Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:
> >
> >http://www.sjgames.com/ill/
> >
> >The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
> >Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
> >will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
> >product line.
> 

And, of course, Jon beat me to it.

What he said.

LKW

--part1_10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time, tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;http://www.sjgames.com/ill/<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to<BR>
&gt;Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and<BR>
&gt;will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the<BR>
&gt;product line.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
And, of course, Jon beat me to it.<BR>
<BR>
What he said.<BR>
<BR>
LKW</FONT></HTML>

--part1_10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.172641.-125169.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Robert

On 30 Apr 2002 17:49:40 -0600 ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com writes:
>  >
> > > Do you use any accessibility tools?
> > 
> > No, no one's showed me how.
> 
> You should def. ask around.  They can really make life easier when
> typing's a chore.
>  
> On Macs & Windows, there's a control panel which gives one that sort
> of option.

I use Windows, I'll need to test it.

> I imagine that using a mouse is Right Out for you.  

No, on the contrary, the mouse I use best. That is - once I get my arm up
onto the desk. Copy and paste is my best action.

Thanks,

Now where'd I leave my grav-belt?

Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F86Dv60gxapzhad2VqK00006ba3@hotmail.com>

>From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>
>>Rupert Boleyn posted:
>>On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:48, wombat@premier.net wrote:
>>>Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my
>>>designs for _Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).
>>>Note that all three of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry
>>>PAW spinal mounts; I've never been a big fan of meson guns.
>>>Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of meson
>>>guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that ecological
>>>niche.
>>
>>I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
>>really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.
>
>First of all, thank you to all of those who replied. Patrik, I'm
>going to mine your site this evening for ideas! Your "Recurrent
>Glory"-class is positively stunning.

<blushes>

>As for meson guns..yeah, I never liked 'em. Never, that is, until
>I saw Patrik's website. How about a 406 Gj Meson Spinal mount that
>can punch through a cruiser's meson screen (and armor) at Long
>distance?

To the best of my knowledge the effectiveness of Meson guns have varied 
rather dramatically between editions but I have to agree that they are only 
marginally effective in space combat under the FFS2/MCS combo (I know/care 
very little about the T4 space combat system). Some of the smaller ships I 
designed with Meson guns should probably perform better with PAWs (but then 
most of them are experiments to see how effective Meson guns are with MCS).

Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of PAWs that 
Dimashq doesn't need to try to fill that ecological niche. ;)

IMO meson guns only become somewhat effective in ship-to-ship combat with 
tunnel lengths of 500 m or more (IIRC the Recurrent Glory has a 690 m Meson 
Gun). The biggest advantage in game is that their existence forces ships to 
carry Meson screens that add another factor into the acceleration vs. armour 
vs. stealth equation. The biggest disadvantages that they have short range 
and that hit probability analysis suggest that it's harder to hit a target 
with a meson gun (a effect simulated by MCS). An evasive strategy that is 
optimal for Meson guns will however be less efficient against Lasers and 
PAWs (unless shot at from more than one direction).


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:55:14 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <200205010054.FJA02801@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>Subject: Re: [TML] A Challenge  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>No, on the contrary, the mouse I use best. That is - once I 
>get my arm up onto the desk. Copy and paste is my best 
>action.
>
I've got a Microsoft trackball that helped the arm strain go 
away (seems I get tense using a regular mouse). That, and I 
use IBM ViaVoice to type a lot.  Initially, I had to make a 
lot of corrections, but it knows me now. Not so good for web 
pages, but that's what the mouse is for.  It's very good for 
dictation in Word.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:59:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:59:08 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <F86Dv60gxapzhad2VqK00006ba3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020214606.5089.ajackson@ping>

Patrik Holmstr=F6m writes:

> To the best of my knowledge the effectiveness of Meson guns have varied=
=20
> rather dramatically between editions but I have to agree that they are on=
ly
>  marginally effective in space combat under the FFS2/MCS combo

Specifically, there's not much point to range beyond short, due to the evas=
ion
effects.  Meson guns have a bunch of interesting tactical uses because you =
can
hide behind a planet or deep in a gas giant and use a forward observer in a
fighter (yeah, that's not discussed in MCS).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:05:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:05:07 2002
Subject: [TML] reloading example
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020319202156.009eb8c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20430.171325.3s0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Mark, you have one of *everything.*
>
> One of my "win the lottery" plans is establish residency in Oregon, get the 
> proper paperwork, and have you show me where to go shopping.  :)

Well, there's always "Fairly Honest Don's Machine Gun Parlor" out in
Hillsboro. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>

From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
>>This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking 
>> >>about a X-ray laser so it needs to be at least TL13.
>
>That doesn't necessarily follow.  TL13 is where controlled and
>contained Xray weapon lasers appear, is it not?

That's why I said probably. However if we want to build a ChemDet warhead 
using the canon laser rules (or a slightly tweaked version) ChemDets will 
suck big time unless they are grav focused or use X-ray wavelengths.


>I would expect detonation lasers to appear *much* earlier; TL8 or 9.

Are you talking about NukeDets or ChemDets here?


> >Can a lasing rod (as used in NukeDets) also be used with chemicals?
>
>Almost certainly nuclear detonation lasers are nothing like chemical
>ones.  They would be based on gamma/hard Xray radiation input to begin
>with, and chemical reactions never generate such radiation.

I thought so too, nice to have it confirmed.


> > Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow
> > up) or something more powerful (that does)?
>
>The latter, I would expect.  A cartridge that doesn't blow up is
>over-engineered for this task.

Yeah, I would like self-destructing cartridges as well and since we already 
have Chemical Laser Cartridges that don't blow up there should exist a 
margin for more powerful and/or lighter self-destructing version.

The laser cartridge question is not my largest obstacle. The regular CLC has 
more than enough power to be a viable weapon for civilian/light military use 
especially considering the price tag of the alternative (NukeDets cost 1+MCr 
and a missile armed ship can easily carry three times its own cost in 
missiles). The big problem is explaining why so few beams from a NukeDet 
seems to hit the target. At 15000 km the target can only evade 0.5m/G so the 
number of hits should be more or less equal to the number of rods/focal 
arrays pointed at the target. If we assume that all the lasers fired hits we 
get the following TL13 500 kg warheads (regular CLC).

#CLC     Energy  MCS stats
16     x  40 Mj  13:14
8     x  80 Mj  14:13
4     x 160 Mj  15:12

There are some reasons (e.g. the 1D6 Hits rule from TNE/T4) to believe that 
NukeDets aren't this accurate. As they don't require a conventional beam 
pointer (whatever it is that beam pointers do) it could be argued that they 
compensate by spreading the shots over a larger area (shotgun style). 
Another source of inaccuracy could be the detonation of the nuke itself.

If a ChemDet used a regular beam pointer none of the above would apply and a 
reasonable assumption would be that all the pulses would hit. That's nice 
but unfortunately a 15'000 km beam pointer weights slightly less than 1000 
kg (mixing FFS1/2 at TL13, 50'000 km = 1333 kg, 30.000 km = 1000 kg, 5000 km 
= 948 kg, 3000 km = 500 kg). This is clearly too much for a missile and 
Bruce Macintosh argued in a off-list email that ChemDets should be able to 
use a lightweight beam pointer since NukeDets get away with something like 
that. The question then becomes how this affects the performance of the 
ChemDet.

I am leaning towards postulating a 100 kg beam pointer that causes 5/6ths of 
the laser pulses to miss when fired at "a typical target" from 15'000 km. 
This is reduced to 2/3rds due to the ChemDets shorter detonation range. With 
these assumptions we get the following TL13 500 kg (400+100kg) warheads.

Nr/CLSs  Energy  MCS stats
12     x  45 Mj  13:11
6     x  90 Mj  14:10
3     x 180 Mj  15:9


This is slightly better than the MCS ChemDet warhead (which is a handwave 
based on a somewhat legal design). There exist enough handwave room here to 
tweak things to anybodies liking. The draft I'm working on adds a factor 2 
by going to self-destructive cartridges at TL13 (4 Mj/kg) while a TL16 
self-destructive cartridge (5 Mj/kg) adds an additional factor of 2 compared 
with its TL13 cousin (this includes the "laser efficiency modifier"). Of 
course none of this is set in stone.

An aside - I tried rating the warheads for TNE but they sucked badly due to 
their low penetration ratings (I rated the 40Mj warhead as 1D6 hits at 
1/4-16).


>>Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a 
>>lot.
>>TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing
>>Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical 
>>Lasing
>>Cartridge? Double this?
>
>Theoretically possible, yes.  Practically?  I don't know.  The mass of
>a cartridge is more than just the mass of chemical compounds contained
>within it, and converting chemical energy to laser energy is usually
>far from 100% efficient.  2 MJ/kg is very good, as far as I can see.
>
>- Tim


I'm thinking more the other practical angle. If the self-destructing 
cartridge were not noticeably better than the regular cartridge we would all 
be designing reusable (why blow up a expensive missile) laser missiles with 
10-50 cartridges with a few 45'000 km range High RoF focal arrays. The best 
part is that PD fire wouldn't stand a chance at these ranges while the 
missile would still hit most targets with every shot. Hey, this almost 
sounds like a good idea. : )

Such a missile would be a bit larger that a regular missile to fit more 
cartridges, a beam pointer and extra fuel but everything should fit into 7 
to 14 m3 or so. It would be like sort of like a laser armed remote 
controlled fighters. Make them 10 dt, pack a few more weapons and some 
thruster plates for cruising and we got a Zho robotic fighter. :)


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.181756.-125169.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

John

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 20:54:48 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> >
> I've got a Microsoft trackball that helped the arm strain go 
> away (seems I get tense using a regular mouse).

Trackball won't work, nor one of those pads you move a finger on - "No
dexterity!"
My stats are 211885 .....

> That, and I use IBM ViaVoice to type a lot.  

I barely have a voice now, and it's difficult to understand, and
constantly changing.

ObTrav:
You streamlined you ships computer to access by voice command. 
You've been in a nasty bar-fight.
Your face is all swollen from the bar stool that fractured your jaw.
Sure, medical patched you up ok, but your speech is slurred by both your
wounds and Scout brew.
The ship won't open the hatch, now what?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F115LJ0HYnmTvdeLhie00006b47@hotmail.com>

Anthony Jackson wtote
>Patrik Holmstrm writes:
>>To the best of my knowledge the effectiveness of Meson guns have >>varied 
>>rather dramatically between editions but I have to agree that >>they are 
>>only  marginally effective in space combat under the >>FFS2/MCS combo
>
>Specifically, there's not much point to range beyond short, due to the 
> >evasion effects.  Meson guns have a bunch of interesting tactical uses 
> >because you can hide behind a planet or deep in a gas giant and use a 
> >forward observer in a fighter (yeah, that's not discussed in MCS).

It's not really that bad (though nearly). For example any 200 dt Trader (or 
other low acceleration ship) or a Tigress class ship will be hit by every 
shot fired by a (lightspeed) weapon at less than 10 hexes. The exact 
distance when this happends depends on acceleration, displacement and hull 
configuration but is seldom less than 5 hexes except for missiles and 
fighters. Hit probablities goes downhill pretty fast after this distance but 
medium range should be doable for many targets (less so for meson guns). 
AFAIK most editions use some kind of proximity fused Meson gun that removes 
that nasty r^(-6) term.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:34:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:34:18 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <200205010132.FJC00900@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  writes
>My stats are 211885 .....
>
If you don't mind me asking, what happened to you? I have 
that dreaded feeling it was an industrial accident (in my 
youth I used to do abstracts of depositions for industrial 
accidents - don't ask me to eat Heinz Homestyle Gravy)

>ObTrav:
>You streamlined you ships computer to access by voice 
>command. You've been in a nasty bar-fight.
>Your face is all swollen from the bar stool that fractured 
>your jaw. Sure, medical patched you up ok, but your speech 
>is slurred by both your wounds and Scout brew.
>The ship won't open the hatch, now what?
>

IMTU, you pull out the interface cable from your belt pack, 
plug it into the ship's external jack, put the other end into 
the socket in your head, and open the door.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEKACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
>shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

You should be.  My frient Luther Martin has one, and it looks sharp.  His
only complaint is that he doesn't have many places to wear it.  I think he
should just wear it to work, but it's a little too formal for his office's
dress code (he's usually wearing a loud Hawaiian shirt when I see him during
business hours).

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:43:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:43:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
>
>Considering the deal the players made in the first place, a sudden
>attack of ethics would seem to be a bit out of place.  They willingly
>lied and got paid for it.  Seems pretty bizarre that they would care
>that the politician used it for different purposes.
>
>Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
>now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?

As they say in management seminars, it's not so much a problem as an
opportunity.  Having a powerful friend on that world may be the most optimal
outcome, but other options should certainly be considered.  It's not
personal, you know.  It's just business.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:47:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:47:24 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  TML Haiku
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

A great idea
From John Kwon of TML
Haiku of the game

a queasy stomach
deeply humming up your spine 
g-carrier please land

a queasy stomach
the engineer stopped work
he is not jump sick

pleasure center burn
"you must remove that old wire"
"doctor my brain hurts"

Silver gauss pistol
Her stalking ex-husband was
Shot so many times

They have left the Hive
To shake hands and see the sights
Making jokes in sign

Please don't feed the Vargr
He is our steward and cook
Give him bad ideas

Assiniboia
Even in daytime it shines
Credo Down again

Esalin border
They are eating kubicho
I can smell it here

No slaves on Mongo
We enjoy our service here
Do not want to leave

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:55:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:55:08 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
Message-ID: <F264yp8ARf3sllNY30k00006c57@hotmail.com>

>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>

<snip of nice design>

>Weaponry
>1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750]
>(LR)
>20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
>(LR)

Personally I would replace these with laser bays since they are smaller 
(5x), lighter (2.5x), use less power (1.2x) and cost less (7.5x) (but you 
probably know all this). Yes, I know you like PAWs. :)

>6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
>15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations for 600
>crew)

Do you have a reason why you choose to carry more fuel than rations? My
designs usually do the opposite and carry one year worth of rations and
6 month of power plant fuel. My reasoning is that the powerplant fuel will 
be refilled after every jump and that military ships will seldom be operated 
at full power and thus the fuel will last longer.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Searching for filk
Message-ID: <200205010158.FJC02926@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

The song Wanderin' Star from Paint Your Wagon is perilously 
close to filk with few modifications. It almost sounds like 
the unofficial song of the Scouts.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:04:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:04:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>
References: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020501120223.A30646@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> >I would expect detonation lasers to appear *much* earlier; TL8 or 9.
> 
> Are you talking about NukeDets or ChemDets here?

Both.


> There are some reasons (e.g. the 1D6 Hits rule from TNE/T4) to
> believe that NukeDets aren't this accurate. As they don't require a
> conventional beam pointer (whatever it is that beam pointers do)

I have no idea :/

Whatever they are, it isn't something that's required for TL7 weapons.
Unless it's just a fancy term for "sensors".


> I'm thinking more the other practical angle. If the self-destructing
> cartridge were not noticeably better than the regular cartridge we
> would all be designing reusable (why blow up a expensive missile)
> laser missiles with 10-50 cartridges with a few 45'000 km range High
> RoF focal arrays.

I thought 2 MJ/kg *was* for a one-shot self-destructing device.  It's
ahead of any currently plausible reusable pulse laser technology by a
long shot.



> The best part is that PD fire wouldn't stand a chance at these
> ranges while the missile would still hit most targets with every
> shot.

What system allows a whole bunch of batteries of starship-mounted
lasers to miss a non-accelerating target at 45 Mm while the starship
itself is an easy hit?

(I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that the missile could
accelerate while still firing to an accuracy of 1 part per million)


> Such a missile would be a bit larger that a regular missile to fit
> more cartridges, a beam pointer and extra fuel but everything should
> fit into 7 to 14 m3 or so. It would be like sort of like a laser
> armed remote controlled fighters. Make them 10 dt, pack a few more
> weapons and some thruster plates for cruising and we got a Zho
> robotic fighter. :)

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that remote missile/drone warfare is the way
to go in general.  I'm guessing the only reason why Traveller has
starship-to-starship direct-fire battles is for the space-opera image.
The rules (at least GURPS Traveller) don't favour it at all.  It would
be nice to have a clear statement of intent.

(For that matter, even person-to-person gunfights don't look too
plausible at GURPS TL9 and above if you examine things closely, but
there are things you can do to tweak things back into shape to retain
the 'feel' of standard Traveller combat.  Not that I bother with
combat anymore for the most part.  By TL9 weapons and above, when it
comes to lethal combat the outcomes are that you're either unscathed
or dead.  Never wounded and valiantly fighting on, or other staples of
space opera.)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:08:17 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.190216.-125169.4.generalturokan@juno.com>

John

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:32:27 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com  writes
> >My stats are 211885 .....
> >
> If you don't mind me asking, what happened to you? 

Amyo Lateral Sclerosis [ALS] Lou Gherig's disease.

I guess you didn't get my announcement from 9-27-01

I'll send ya copy.

Right now it's time to eat and watch JAG.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
Message-ID: <200205010204.FJC03335@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I bet Tod really likes hearing "Men of Harlech". Not that 
it's a French song, nor did they sing it at Rourke's Drift 
outside of the movie.

I am a more than passable baritone, and I have been heard to 
sing the National Anthem, clearly audible at over a mile away 
without benefit of amplification.  Mind you, I was 50 feet in 
the air, and it was a quiet night. They had to wait until I 
was finished before they called me up and told me to knock it 
off.  There *is* a benefit to knowing more than the first 
verse.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:17:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:17:13 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
References: <F264yp8ARf3sllNY30k00006c57@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CCF4FB0.5EA8596F@premier.net>


"Patrik Holmstrm" wrote:
> 
> >From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> 
> <snip of nice design>

From a highly-regarded competitor in FF&S2 warship design, that's high
praise!
> 
> >Weaponry
> >1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750]
> >(LR)
> >20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
> >(LR)
> 
> Personally I would replace these with laser bays since they are smaller
> (5x), lighter (2.5x), use less power (1.2x) and cost less (7.5x) (but you
> probably know all this). Yes, I know you like PAWs. :)

OTOH, if one uses the optional D3 for laser damage in MCS (which I do),
then PAWs (with their D6) are more destructive.  And I _like_
destructive weapons.  _Especially_ destructive PAWs. ;-)

Besides, with a corporate name like AuricTech, do you _really_ think our
designers worry too much about cost (at least when designing warships)?

> 
> >6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
> >15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations for 600
> >crew)
> 
> Do you have a reason why you choose to carry more fuel than rations? My
> designs usually do the opposite and carry one year worth of rations and
> 6 month of power plant fuel. My reasoning is that the powerplant fuel will
> be refilled after every jump and that military ships will seldom be operated
> at full power and thus the fuel will last longer.

Three reasons:

1.  More leeway in the event of fuel loss due to damage.
2.  Longer operating time in the event of a misjump or other calamity
that causes the crew to retreat to the Emergency low berths (as you can
see, the design has enough Emergency low berths to carry the entire crew
at normal manning levels).
3.  The default setting on the Akins spreadsheet for fusion plant fuel
is one year.

Note: these reasons are not necessarily in order of importance. :-)

Thanks again for the feedback.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:21:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:21:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giants (was Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller)
Message-ID: <48.acc729f.2a00aad9@aol.com>

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tim@freeman.little-possums.net writes:
> Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
> pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
> dwarf mass.  Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
> increasing temperatures.  Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
> expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.
>
> It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
> 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
> fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.

Got a reference for this?

If we ever revise GT:First In, one of the things I want to fix is the way
you generate gas giant sizes. I'm not particuarly happy with the kludge
I originally came up with - for one thing, you can't really generate super-
Jovians with it.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>tim@freeman.little-possums.net writes:
<BR>&gt; Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
<BR>&gt; pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
<BR>&gt; dwarf mass. &nbsp;Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
<BR>&gt; increasing temperatures. &nbsp;Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
<BR>&gt; expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
<BR>&gt; 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
<BR>&gt; fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.
<BR>
<BR>Got a reference for this?
<BR>
<BR>If we ever revise GT:First In, one of the things I want to fix is the way
<BR>you generate gas giant sizes. I'm not particuarly happy with the kludge
<BR>I originally came up with - for one thing, you can't really generate super-
<BR>Jovians with it.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_48.acc729f.2a00aad9_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:45:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:45:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
In-Reply-To: <200205010204.FJC03335@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8F4A4BE.5908C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/30/02 7:04 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I bet Tod really likes hearing "Men of Harlech". Not that
> it's a French song, nor did they sing it at Rourke's Drift
> outside of the movie.
> 

Tod likes all martial music.  It is a sad thing that modern war rids us a
music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that pop
up now and again).  I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
beginning of the battle.  Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
gleaming in the sun, and martial music.  It stirs the blood.

Modern war is a dirty, no nonsense business with no room for ruffles and
flourishes, banners snapping in the wind, sabres gleaming and 'gloire'.

From Louis Simpson

"At Malplaquet and Waterloo
They were polite and proud,
They primed their guns with billet-doux
And, as they fired, bowed.
At Appomatox too, it seems
Some things were understood.

O the ash and the oak and the willow tree
And the green grows the grass on the infantry; "

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
Message-ID: <a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462@aol.com>

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> Tod likes all martial music.  It is a sad thing that modern war rids us a
> music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that pop
> up now and again).  I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
> beginning of the battle.  Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
> gleaming in the sun, and martial music.  It stirs the blood.

I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been writing,
involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some rather
unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there have
been a couple sequels.

The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in the
soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior speakers.
Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as they
wade into combat.

The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon"
at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-).

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Tod likes all martial music. &nbsp;It is a sad thing that modern war rids us a
<BR>&gt; music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that pop
<BR>&gt; up now and again). &nbsp;I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
<BR>&gt; beginning of the battle. &nbsp;Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
<BR>&gt; gleaming in the sun, and martial music. &nbsp;It stirs the blood.
<BR>
<BR>I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been writing,
<BR>involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some rather
<BR>unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there have
<BR>been a couple sequels.
<BR>
<BR>The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in the
<BR>soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior speakers.
<BR>Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as they
<BR>wade into combat.
<BR>
<BR>The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon"
<BR>at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-).
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
References: <a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CCF5D6A.23227877@premier.net>


JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> 
**quote**

I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been
writing, 
involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some
rather 
unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there
have 
been a couple sequels. 

The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in
the 
soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior
speakers. 
Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as
they 
wade into combat. 

The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" 
at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-). 

**end quote**

Of course, had they played "MacArthur Park" (the Richard Harris
version), there would have been mass surrenders by the hostiles [*],
followed immediately by mass arrests of US Special Forces personnel for
war crimes.... ;-)

[*] Either that, or the aliens' braincases would have exploded.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F259XPec8O1AAwl6zO600006d73@hotmail.com>

Timothy Little wrote:
>Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> > There are some reasons (e.g. the 1D6 Hits rule from TNE/T4) to
> > believe that NukeDets aren't this accurate. As they don't require a
> > conventional beam pointer (whatever it is that beam pointers do)
>
>I have no idea :/
>
>Whatever they are, it isn't something that's required for TL7 weapons.
>Unless it's just a fancy term for "sensors".

Well, FFS1 says that they "represent the integral fire control capabilities 
of the weapon". They are required for "all heavy (non-small arm) laser, 
particle accelerators and meson guns". A external sensor is still required 
to the best of my knowledge.

>I thought 2 MJ/kg *was* for a one-shot self-destructing device.  It's
>ahead of any currently plausible reusable pulse laser technology by a
>long shot.

That depends on you defination of self-destructing. The regular CLC is used 
much like a rifle cartridge and the reaction is contained in the cartridge 
itself. I'm thinking more of something that explodes spectacularly.

> > The best part is that PD fire wouldn't stand a chance at these
> > ranges while the missile would still hit most targets with every
> > shot.
>
>What system allows a whole bunch of batteries of starship-mounted
>lasers to miss a non-accelerating target at 45 Mm while the starship
>itself is an easy hit?

Assuming that the missile can manuever:
It's bigger and accelerates less? :)

Assuming that it can't:
It won't matter since an entire fleet will be waiting for the target ship to 
stop manuevering in preparation of PD fire. The fleet will then fire and hit 
with every weapon it has disposable.

>(I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that the missile could
>accelerate while still firing to an accuracy of 1 part per million)

The rules seem to disagree but I grant you that it would be something of an 
engineering problem. I think Bruce Macintosh talked about laser accuracy a 
couple of times but I can't remember if he mentioned something about 
acceleration effects.

The fire control would have knowledge of future acceleration and could 
syncronize fire with a straight burn. During such a burn the angle to the 
target wouldn't change much and you have to do that kind of burn rather 
often if you want optimal evasion. Another possible tactic would be to have 
the missile stop accelerating for 0.1 seconds (or less) while shooting. Not 
evading is after all a valid evasion tactic (unless you do it all the time 
or do it predictably).

<snip>

I agree with all the rest. I have designed fighter drones and automatic PD 
systems for battledress for this kind of war. Fighting a high tech war 
without support and gadgets must (most of the time) be like fighting modern 
day tanks with sticks and stones. On the largest flat surface you can 
imagine. In the dark. And you can't hide.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:26:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:26:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giants (was Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller)
In-Reply-To: <48.acc729f.2a00aad9@aol.com>
References: <48.acc729f.2a00aad9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020501132547.A30741@freeman.little-possums.net>

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
[I wrote:]
> > It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
> > 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
> > fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.
> 
> Got a reference for this?

Just my lecture notes at the moment, though I'm sure I can find a
suitable reference in the Uni library.  I've been meaning to go back
there for another study session soon anyway :)

Of course, these models are entirely theoretical: no diameters of real
superjovians have yet been measured to my knowledge.  A quick abstract
search confirms this as of March 2002.  I can find only two measured
diameters for verified extrasolar planets (via transit photometry),
both of sub-jovian mass.

Interestingly, one of the two appears somewhat larger than Jupiter --
1.35 times the diameter, but only about 70% of Jupiter's mass.  This
is almost certainly because it is *very* hot, orbiting just 0.045 AU
from a G0V star, and also because it has a relatively low mass so that
the pressure increase due to temperature is more able to overcome
gravity.

I would not be at all surprised if this is close to the largest planet
that will ever be found.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:33:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:33:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <200205010332.FJG00772@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
Message-ID: <F1790dwzd44lkw8Hbql00006d85@hotmail.com>

Please forgive the somewhat lighthearted tone of the message. It must be the 
hour.

>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>"Patrik Holmstrm" wrote:
> >
> > >From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> >
> > <snip of nice design>
>
>From a highly-regarded competitor in FF&S2 warship design, that's high
>praise!

Maybe we should start the "Club for Internal Admiration"? Hmm, I think I 
recognise those initials. :)

> > >Weaponry
> > >1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 
>[1,200/750-750-750-750]
> > >(LR)
> > >20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
> > >(LR)
> >
>>Personally I would replace these with laser bays since they are >>smaller 
>>(5x), lighter (2.5x), use less power (1.2x) and cost less (7.5x) (but you 
>>probably know all this). Yes, I know you like PAWs. :)
>
>OTOH, if one uses the optional D3 for laser damage in MCS (which I do),
>then PAWs (with their D6) are more destructive.  And I _like_
>destructive weapons.  _Especially_ destructive PAWs. ;-)

Now that you remaind I remember that I also use that rule. Dang! Well we 
will then have to roughly double the size of the mount. That will cut rather 
severly into our advantages but at least we now have a average damage that 
is 0.5 higher (16+2 vs 14+3.5) than the PAW mount though the laser mount 
still lack the doubled crew casulties.

Wait now I got it! The laser mount has superior traverse! Muhhha! I wan't to 
see your 44 m PAW triumf that! :)

>>>6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
>>>15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations
> >
>>Do you have a reason why you choose to carry more fuel than rations? >>My 
>>designs usually do the opposite and carry one year worth of >>rations and 
>>6 month of power plant fuel. My reasoning is that the >>powerplant fuel 
>>will  be refilled after every jump and that military >>ships will seldom 
>>be operated at full power and thus the fuel will >>last longer.
>
>Three reasons:
>
>1.  More leeway in the event of fuel loss due to damage.
>2.  Longer operating time in the event of a misjump or other calamity
>that causes the crew to retreat to the Emergency low berths (as you can
>see, the design has enough Emergency low berths to carry the entire >crew 
>at normal manning levels).
>3.  The default setting on the Akins spreadsheet for fusion plant fuel
>is one year.
>
>Note: these reasons are not necessarily in order of importance. :-)
>
Pretty good reasons all of them.

Now it's time to crawl into my cave since the daystar is rapidly approching.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 23:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 22:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F259XPec8O1AAwl6zO600006d73@hotmail.com>
References: <F259XPec8O1AAwl6zO600006d73@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020501152126.A30999@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> Well, FFS1 says that they "represent the integral fire control capabilities 
> of the weapon". They are required for "all heavy (non-small arm) laser, 
> particle accelerators and meson guns". A external sensor is still required 
> to the best of my knowledge.

OK.  So it isn't something required for any TL7 weapon, which is why I
couldn't find anything about it :)


> That depends on you defination of self-destructing. The regular CLC
> is used much like a rifle cartridge and the reaction is contained in
> the cartridge itself. I'm thinking more of something that explodes
> spectacularly.

I don't think it would make much difference.  If it's big enough to
self-destruct with 2 MJ/kg, you're not going to get a lot more power
out of anything chemical once you add in all the other apparatus
necessary to get an ultra-high power extremely tightly collimated
laser beam out of it.


> It won't matter since an entire fleet will be waiting for the target
> ship to stop manuevering in preparation of PD fire. The fleet will
> then fire and hit with every weapon it has disposable.

If the entire enemy fleet stops maneuvering to fire at one target
ship, they are themselves open to fire from the opposing fleet :)

Besides which, a very large ship can carry stabilisation gear that a
little missile can't.


> >(I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that the missile could
> >accelerate while still firing to an accuracy of 1 part per million)
> 
> The rules seem to disagree but I grant you that it would be something of an 
> engineering problem. I think Bruce Macintosh talked about laser accuracy a 
> couple of times but I can't remember if he mentioned something about 
> acceleration effects.

"Jerk."  That's not an insult, it's a technical term :)

Specifically, the term for rate of change of acceleration.  An evading
vehicle must change acceleration direction rapidly, which means that
stabilisation has to converge on the order of tens of milliseconds for
a missile to use its acceleration ability to best advantage, against a
jerk of thousands of gees per second.


> Another possible tactic would be to have the missile stop
> accelerating for 0.1 seconds (or less) while shooting.

0.1 seconds is very short time for even short-mode vibrations to damp
out from the jerk of not accelerating anymore.  Mind you, I don't
doubt that TL12 weapon mounts and fire control could do so, but us
poor mortals certainly couldn't.

Another thought: A high-RoF missile probably won't scratch the paint
of most ships -- after all, there's a limit to how much energy you can
deliver over a combat round, and breaking it up into lots of little
pieces just means you have more chances to hit for no damage.  One
ship's laser will vaporise a missile, since there just isn't enough
volume for anywhere near the same thickness of armour that a starship
can mount.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 03:21:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:21:45 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Red Army Chorus
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHEECMCEAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAIECMCKAA.redroach@pobox.com>



I personally think that the US National anthem sucks!
1. The ONLY national anthem that talks about war.
2. A notes that only professional singers can hit on key.
3. Only the communists know the words past the first verse!

Myself and a lot of Americans prefer "America the Beautiful".
They even voted on this in Congress a few years back.

(Rant Over)

MY TURN:
Too bad I am obviously an American who prefers and values the "Star Spangled
Banner."
Maybe we should take Franklin's idea and change our national bird to the
turkey.

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:10:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:10:39 -0600
Subject: [TML] Comm check
Message-ID: <3CA7A57F.EEFD8C@mail.cswnet.com>

ping ping ping ping ping

Here we go again.

ISS Agena at the outer beacon.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:15:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:15:40 -0600
Subject: [TML] Roseberry's HG2 used space craft lot
Message-ID: <3CA7A6AC.CCAACC8B@mail.cswnet.com>

Come on down and try out some of these beauties...
[all designs use HG2. Costs are standard, no arch fees, no discounts]
[TL per Ct]


Upshore class slow shuttle
Y2-0201111-030000-00001-0  TL10-12  95dt Crew=2
            1         2    Mcr26.325 standard 
            1         2
Fuel=4.25dt EP=.95 Agile=1 Cargo=60 Passenger couches=10
Bridge included.


Terp class armored space tanker
QK-0201111-330000-00001-0   TL10-11  40dt Crew=2
            1         2    Mcr16.33 Standard
            1         2
Fuel=1 EP=.4 Agile=1 Bridge included. Tanker Fuel=20dt


Gaku N'aGak class slow modular cutter
Uses same 30dt standard modules as the regular cutter.

Gaku N'aGak class, frame section only
YY2-0203411-030000-00001-0   TL10-12  10dt
             1         2    Mcr9.05 standard  Crew=2
             1         2
Fuel=1.8 EP=.4 Agile=3

Gaku N'aGak class, frame and module section
YY2-0201111-030000-00001-0  TL10-12  40dt
             1         2    Mcr9.05 plus cost of module
             1         2    Crew=2
Fuel=1.8 EP=.4 Agile=1

Modules shown in Adventure 7.


"Cyberspeed" orbital racing speeder
QF-0606701-000000-00000-0 TL9-12  4.5dt
no weapons                Mcr5.885 std Crew=1
Fuel=1 EP=.315 Agile=6 no bridge. Mod1 computer.


Standard Speeder using HG2
VF-0106601-000000-00000-0 TL9-12  6dt
no weapons               Mcr6.52 std 
Fuel=1.08 Ep=.36 Agile=6 Crew=1 Passenger couch=1
no bridge. Mod1 computer. Cargo=.82


Plop designs historical series:  The Jetsons Speeder
NVF-0103311-000000-00000-0 TL9-12  9dt
no weapons                Mcr6.718 std Crew=1
Fuel=1 EP=.27 Agile=3 Cargo=0
1 pilot couch, 4 passenger couches.
1 jump capsule launcher, with 3 capsule ready storage.
4 jump capsules available.
Unfortunately, the designers at the Plop works haven't figured
out how to stick 9dt speeder into a briefcase. Studies continue.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:20:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:20:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Comm check
Message-ID: <200204010020.DBV00016@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
>
>ping ping ping ping ping
>
>Here we go again.
>
>ISS Agena at the outer beacon.
>

Greetings Agena!  This is Bob Marks of Bob's Duty Free Goods 
and Taxi Service!  Welcome! Welcome!  We have specials on 
clothing, liquor, and specialty foods!  Don't buy the tourist 
stuff they sell in the starport!  Nobody pays retail when 
they can buy from Bob!

We even have free coupons for a 10 percent discount on 
refined fuel!  If you have passengers on board, we can take 
them direct to their destination dirtside for only 10cr!

Act now, and we'll throw in a free hot lunch of charbroiled 
steak!

We can match vectors and be alongside in 10 minutes!  How 
about it?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:41:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jason Barnabas)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 16:41:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Real Life? Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <h2bcaugf7hmmg8npll01nedlk3cv051sqi@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1d915$efff2160$2c617043@jbathome>

JR Holmes wrote:
<snippers>
>I'm jealous.  Of course, from San Diego, I would be beyond any distant
>end of any trip you might be considering (in Wisconsin, on Lake
>Michigan).  Ah well, the joys and sorrows of living on the Central
>Coast.

Well JR, I could plan to end up on the bonny shores (I'm assuming 
they are bonny) of Lake Michigan via the Saint Lawrence Seaway.  
So, no it is not entirely out of the question.  After all if I'm 
going to sail all the way from San Diego harbor to the Chesapeake 
Bay, what's a few thousand more miles.

I believe that both Green Bay and Milwaukee are port cities.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:40:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:40:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Real Life? Intrudes
Message-ID: <200204010040.DBV00674@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Jason Barnabas" says
>
>Well JR, I could plan to end up on the bonny shores (I'm 
>assuming they are bonny) of Lake Michigan via the Saint 
>Lawrence Seaway.  
>So, no it is not entirely out of the question.  After all if 
>I'm going to sail all the way from San Diego harbor to the 
>Chesapeake Bay, what's a few thousand more miles.
>

There are a fair number of us near the Chesapeake Bay.
Yeah, as long as you're going from Regina to Sol, what's 
a few more jumps here or there.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:43:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:43:07 EST
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
Message-ID: <16b.b4fbf3e.29d9071b@aol.com>

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"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> Just finished going through what will be a rather long
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units
> in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may
> differ.
> <snip>

   I'd like a copy as well :)
  -Ken-
 


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>
<BR>"John T. Kwon" wrote:
<BR>
<BR>&gt; Just finished going through what will be a rather long
<BR>&gt; document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units
<BR>&gt; in Traveller. &nbsp;Just a guide, mind you. &nbsp;Your mileage may
<BR>&gt; differ.
<BR>&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I'd like a copy as well :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR> 
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_16b.b4fbf3e.29d9071b_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 00:49:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:49:20 EST
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
Message-ID: <118.f28a399.29d90890@aol.com>

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> Generating a large number of systems shows a possible anomaly in the rules
> for life generation. Approximately ten times the number of complex animals
> evolved in Earthlike conditions are evolved on icy rockballs with
> subsurface oceans. This is also true for sentinent lifeforms.

Probably because there are a lot more icy rockballs than there are
Earthlike worlds.

If you come up with an adjustment that seems right to you, let me 
know - I'm told a reprint or second edition of First In is likely at some
point, so I'm assembling notes for changes to details of the world
generation sequence.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Generating a large number of systems shows a possible anomaly in the rules
<BR>&gt; for life generation. Approximately ten times the number of complex animals
<BR>&gt; evolved in Earthlike conditions are evolved on icy rockballs with
<BR>&gt; subsurface oceans. This is also true for sentinent lifeforms.
<BR>
<BR>Probably because there are a lot more icy rockballs than there are
<BR>Earthlike worlds.
<BR>
<BR>If you come up with an adjustment that seems right to you, let me 
<BR>know - I'm told a reprint or second edition of First In is likely at some
<BR>point, so I'm assembling notes for changes to details of the world
<BR>generation sequence.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:13:22 EST
Subject: [TML] Test
Message-ID: <c1.1e6bbd30.29d90e32@aol.com>

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   Hey-Mailerdemon bounced my last message. Just testing :)
  -Ken-

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hey-Mailerdemon bounced my last message. Just testing :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_c1.1e6bbd30.29d90e32_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:29:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:29:47 -0600
Subject: [TML] Real Life? Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <000501c1d915$efff2160$2c617043@jbathome>
References: <h2bcaugf7hmmg8npll01nedlk3cv051sqi@4ax.com> <000501c1d915$efff2160$2c617043@jbathome>
Message-ID: <5scfau8hccl722d5bgm5a6obo8hfh8eppg@4ax.com>

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 16:41:18 -0800, "Jason Barnabas"
<cyber0@prodigy.net> wrote:

>JR Holmes wrote:
><snippers>
>>I'm jealous.  Of course, from San Diego, I would be beyond any distant
>>end of any trip you might be considering (in Wisconsin, on Lake
>>Michigan).  Ah well, the joys and sorrows of living on the Central
>>Coast.
>
>Well JR, I could plan to end up on the bonny shores (I'm assuming=20
>they are bonny) of Lake Michigan via the Saint Lawrence Seaway. =20
>So, no it is not entirely out of the question.  After all if I'm=20
>going to sail all the way from San Diego harbor to the Chesapeake=20
>Bay, what's a few thousand more miles.
>
>I believe that both Green Bay and Milwaukee are port cities.

Green Bay and Milwaukee (and Duluth on Lake Superior) are deep water
ports suitable for ocean-going ships.  There are a couple of dozen
other harbors which are easily suitable for a 39 footer.  The sailing
season here is only about 6 months long, so it would become a matter
of timing.  The Chesapeake is a fair bit more temperate than the Great
Lakes can be (which isn't saying much if you know about the bad
reputation that the Chesapeake has).

As a minor benefit, and reaching back to my collegiate sailing days, I
understand that the slime which builds up on your hull while passing
through Lake Erie is closely akin to the "Go-Fast" coating that ocean
racers spend hundreds applying to their hulls.

Unfortunately, this is the last year that the annual GenCon gaming
convention will be taking place in Milwaukee (its moving to
Indianapolis), because it takes place in early August and coincided
with the Wisconsin State Fair and was close to a number of very large
summer festivals.  That would have been a good time goal to shoot for.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:37:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 17:37:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Trip time question
Message-ID: <200204010137.RAA27635@molly.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
>> Actually B is how many *hours* of burn endurance were used. Sorry I should 
>> have been more specific
>
>In that case, the formula as written is incorrect.  The delta-V should
>be doubled.  (22 mi/s per g-hour, or 35 km/s)

The real problem is that TS is using a weird definition -- what is written
as 'delta-V' is really 'average trip speed'.  If you look around, you 
discover that it assumes both acceleration and deceleration, and should
be doubled for a one-way trip.

Personally, I think that's confusing, but it is the way the rules work.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 01:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:55:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] just looking around
Message-ID: <200204010155.DBX01369@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Was over at Walt Smith's page, and he had a big essay on 
piracy in his TU, which may or may not appeal to those who 
have been involved in rolling around on the topic.

However, he made a few interesting points.  Steal a small 
craft, and even if you only get a fraction of its value, 
you've made a lot of money.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:10:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 21:10:54 EST
Subject: [TML] Navy stuff
Message-ID: <16.1cbec3b9.29d91bae@aol.com>

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   Those interested in some other notes about Spaceships, navy structure, 
assignments and operations, damage control, and the like might want to check 
out Mark Chase's Mekton Z  page at 
http://www.meta-earth.com/metal/metalrpg.html#ch2
   The information is interesting, and some quite  _easily_ liftable for a 
Traveller campaign :)
  -Ken-

   "One of his tricks of persuasion was to cut open the breast of a victim, 
pull out the still beating heart, and gnaw upon it with great relish while 
the next menu object looked on in stark terror. No wonder few withheld 
information from L'Olonais"

   Blackbeard
   AH Games

  

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Those interested in some other notes about Spaceships, navy structure, assignments and operations, damage control, and the like might want to check out Mark Chase's Mekton Z &nbsp;page at 
<BR>http://www.meta-earth.com/metal/metalrpg.html#ch2
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;The information is interesting, and some quite &nbsp;_easily_ liftable for a Traveller campaign :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;"One of his tricks of persuasion was to cut open the breast of a victim, pull out the still beating heart, and gnaw upon it with great relish while the next menu object looked on in stark terror. No wonder few withheld information from L'Olonais"
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Blackbeard
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;AH Games
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:17:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:17:15 -0600
Subject: [TML] Testing
References: <B8CB9A45.3371C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CA7C32B.74BC120@premier.net>

Hmmm.  Did you turn off StripMIME?  A couple of posts came through in
the past couple of hours that were obviously not plain text.

Not a major issue for me, but it may well be an issue for digest
subscribers.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:40:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:40:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Encumbrance
In-Reply-To: <200203311634.DBF00567@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020331183941.009fc790@mindspring.com>

At 11:34 AM 3/31/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Haven't yet seen rules I like for encumbrance.  PCCS is very
>accurate, but takes too long to calculate.
>
>A good page
>
>http://call.army.mil/products/newsltrs/01-15/01-15ch11.htm

Actually, the entire site is good for those playing military/mercenary 
campaigns.

http://call.army.mil/products/newsltrs/01-15/01-15toc.htm


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
  Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 02:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:23:02 +0930 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Presidio class armoured cruiser
In-Reply-To: <3CA5611B.8EEF4422@premier.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204011221290.12785-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Antony;

 All I can say is that your designs have been copied and will be modified
for MTU. Thank you for the work. Great things to "liberate".

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 04:19:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:19:39 -0600
Subject: [TML] CT Ship Design mailing list
References: <OF14E5A3E8.5F7821AA-ON85256B8D.00573844@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CA7DFDB.C2CABA21@pobox.com>

William Lane wrote:

> about 7 months ago i entered the "Cortez" into Hot Rod Race. the Cortez was
> a modified Scout. well before the results where posted my company laid a
> bunch of people off including me.
>
> I was wondering if the person who ran the hot rod race was a member of the
> TML and could let me know what Standing The Cortez came in. or if someone
> could forward this to him it would be appreciated.
>

The Hot Rod race took place on the CT-Starships list.  The race results were:
                 Hellbent 20 pts
                 Abrr Chatlqaf 19
                 Princess Lucky 14
                 Cortez 12
                 Renown 10

Also, another quote re the Cortez...

--- In ct-starships@y..., "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@r...> wrote:
> <snip>
> My personal favourite design has to be Cortez, any ship that can stick
> closely to the rules and still manage Jump-4, 5G  with 2 tons reserved for
> beer has to be a good design :)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 04:24:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:24:37 EST
Subject: [TML] Splat gun
Message-ID: <197.49c174e.29d93b05@aol.com>

--part1_197.49c174e.29d93b05_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Hi gang,
   After seeing stats for one of these things someplace on-line, I got to 
wondering just what exactly _IS_ an Aslan Splatgun anyhow?
  -Ken-

--part1_197.49c174e.29d93b05_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi gang,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;After seeing stats for one of these things someplace on-line, I got to wondering just what exactly _IS_ an Aslan Splatgun anyhow?
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_197.49c174e.29d93b05_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 03:54:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:24:22 +0930 (CST)
Subject: [TML] boarding bots
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331144144.02480060@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204011313420.12785-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi laning:

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, laning wrote:

> I remember reading the article at the time.  Like most non-GDW magazine
> articles that proposed additional rules for Traveller, it added something
> far more powerful than would balance with the existing game rules.

 I think it was #64. Carried a "URP". I made a few servant bots. One
cyborg PC and then sort of lost interest. As it became a way of making
ultra powerful things that either  upset the game in favour of the team or
the opposition. So I ended up doing a sort of "Dune" trip about robots.
Forget the name of the provision against such things. <Butler?>

> Of course, I'm no happier than anyone else with the GDW robot rules in Book
> 8--or the computer rules, for that matter.  But, I shouldn't criticize,
> because I'm hardly qualified to write something better.  I don't think
> Moore's Law is infinitely recursive and in fact I think it's likely to
> reach its limit while most of us are still alive, so that doesn't jibe at
> all with the hardware rules.  Software rules are more problematical to
> devise.  Locomotion and manipulators _might_ be amenable to easy
> calculation for engineers experienced in such areas but that's only for
> current-day tech, so tech levels 8 through 15 or higher are anybody's
> guess.  The power requirements and power production do seem to have been
> second-guessed very intelligently and accurately by people on this list who
> sounded qualified.

 I was not familiar with computers or robotics at that time. So I let the
entire concept wither on the vine IMTU. But as I ressurect my game. I now
need to adress the matter. Book 8 seems to be in some areas weak and  in
other complex. I need more understanding and then create for MTU.

> BTW, Lord Ronin, if you ever phoned for tech support during the last days
> of Q-Link before it was ignominiously "sunsetted" then we may have spoken
> on the phone.  Although I never had my own account, it was still one of my
> duties to provide tech support.  At least, unlike most of the other AOL
> tech reps who were tasked with the same thing, I'd actually owned a couple
> of Commodore computers in my time.  The only computers on the tech reps'
> desks were IBM-compatibles, with a healthy scattering of Macs, also.  (Not
> 6502's, I said Macs.)  I am pleased to report I had an outstanding success
> rate on my Q-Link calls.  Which is a good thing, because there was many an
> evening when I was the _only_ tech available to answer Q-Link calls.  I had
> wanted to join one of the developers to be online for chat during the final
> moments, but I was busy working instead.

 no i doubt it was you I talked to, as you still have two ears. The one I
talked to got a very falming earful of what I thought about the rape,
torture and murder of Q-Link. Not to mention the stated deltetion of the
C= files from the HD area. BTW: want a copy of the non existent <if you
belive Steve C.> 2400 front end loader? I was part of the Q-Link
preservation group. C=64 Dungeon Arcade was may area. have it all the F-3
comments and still have the 90 catalogue. Now if I can find all the inn
ladies from the geopaint area for my BBS. But I won't delve into that
topic on llist. Oh on the FWIW part laning, I only use Commodore still.
Online with one at this moment at 14.4 going to 56k this upcoming month.
See me off list if you would like to know more about the current world of
Commodore and the new Commodore system comming out shortly.

 OBTRAV: There have been alot of PC platforms in the past. IMTU they are
all C= OS based. As that is what I belive in as the best OS for the user.
Personal opinion of course. IYTU what do you use as a computer standard?
is there a platform OS standard on all computer using tech level worlds?
Does the 3I enforce a compliance of a specific computer OS platform? Or
are there multiple and semi if at all compatible OS units in your game
world?

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 06:01:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:01:28 +0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Kiev class light fleet carriers
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331105548.024beec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEGFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
[mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of laning
Sent: Sunday, 31 March 2002 11:59 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Kiev class light fleet carriers


Antony, why would Terra build a jump-1 warship?  It's more than one parsec
to Terra's nearest neighbor, IIRC.

And my prejudice against fighters/carriers is stronger for this class than
it was for the Consort.  I could see fighters used in commerce raiding as
well as commerce escort, but haven't found a use beyond that.

--Laning

The Kiev is capable of 1x jump-3 or upto 3x jump-1 or any combination. The
other thing to remember is that fighter carriers have been canon since CT.
The Kievs were also designed around the time of the First Solomani Rim war
so have been left behind somewhat by later developments.

Also in Traveller rulesystems (GT excepted, I don't know about T4, not
having that) A ships weapons can only engage one target per round regardless
of rate of fire (rate of fire just makes that target easier to hit). This
actually increases the survivability of fighters. Most of my fighter designs
still carry Nuclear Detonation missiles for a stand off capability.

From play testing I also found that in TNE at least fighters used
defensively are quite successful. Effectively giving a vessel like the Kiev
forty more laser turrets and missile launchers. Commerce raiders also tend
to be of cruiser class or less (the Azhanti High Lightnings were commonly
used for this) Against this type of vessel fighters are a threat. If not why
do the Lightnings for example carry so many light starfighters?

Anyway that is some of my thinking behind the class.

Antony



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 06:01:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:01:29 +0800
Subject: [TML] Presidio class armoured cruiser
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204011221290.12785-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEGFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Lord Ronin from
Q-Link
Sent: Monday, 1 April 2002 10:53 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Presidio class armoured cruiser


Hoi Antony;

 All I can say is that your designs have been copied and will be modified
for MTU. Thank you for the work. Great things to "liberate".

BCNU


Why thank you my lord,
Praise from the praiseworthy is praise indeed.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 06:01:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:01:30 +0800
Subject: [TML] GT Ship Conversion from TML Post
In-Reply-To: <3CA72B79.1969.B92D3@localhost>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOEGFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of shadowcat
Sent: Monday, 1 April 2002 5:30 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] GT Ship Conversion from TML Post


I give you the Breton class light cruiser, I unfortunately have forgotten
who
posted the orginal, and my apologies for the omission of the persons name

That's Ok, the original FFS1 version was posted by me. Nice conversion.
Incidently Fremantle, named after the city in Western Australia not
Freemantle.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 04:24:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:24:18 -0600
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
References: <200203310432.DAH01551@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV57xlgF6ygG1pzOKJ000112d6@hotmail.com>

I'd be grateful for a copy.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"

> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages
> so far.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 07:18:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 02:18:16 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  The Traveller Movie (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <20020328202400.35905.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CA105D7.EB960833@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020328175158.02bd1c70@pop.wizard.net>

At 12:24 PM 3/28/02 -0800, someone wrote:
>How about this for a plot.  Somehow Norris gets wind
>of the assassination plot and heads to warn the
>Emperor.  Unfortunately misjump occurs and the ships
>can't continue.  The only option is the Free Trader
>Beowulf.

Good stuff.  I like it.   :->

Minor suspension of disbelief problem though.  Norris' ship misjumps while 
the rest of his escort fleet doesn't.  Somehow, his personal ship isn't 
able to continue on either.  I guess the misjump inflicted damage to the 
jump drive or something.  But for Norris to choose a free trader as his 
best alternative seems implausible.  Unless the Beowulf is the _only_ ship 
in system.  And even then, he'd transfer to a faster vessel at the first 
system that had one, and there'd be plenty of chances for that.  I guess 
the Beowulf would have to be not a free trader, but something with jump-5, 
and preferably a fast maneuever drive too, to reduce days spent maneuvering 
between jumps.  This suggests a very nonstandard ship or nonstandard 
history for what was once a standard ship.  I think that's good 
though.  Make the ship a separate character in the hearts of the 
audience.  Like the 'Millenium Falcon' only much more so.


>   Norris joins the crew and they head accross
>the rift because it is a speedier trip.  Our
>adventurers get to the Real Strephon on the way
>shortly before the news of the assassination reaches
>them.  I think the scene when the Real Emp meets
>Norris and the crew could be cool.

It seems like it takes some serious handwaving to have them bump into the 
real Strephon on the way.  But, yeah, it makes for a good scene and one 
that seems desirable to keep in the script.  It also takes some serious 
handwaving for Norris to get wind of the impending plot when he lives so 
far away from Dulinor and Dulinor's power base, as well as Capital.

But you have a good thing going with taking a high noble and throwing him 
in with the crew.  A major downside of that is it will remind some people 
too much of Princess Leia or Queen Amidala.  Hmm, maybe something involving 
a Zho instead of Norris.  we have to learn through the eyes of the 
merchant's crew that the Zho are not horrible mind rapers after all, and in 
fact are nice folks who like to prevent assassinations.  The Zhodani 
government might have more pragmatic reasons for trying to prevent the 
assassination, too.  They can't know the assassination is scheduled by GDW 
to initiate the break up of the Imperium.  From where they're sitting, it's 
a choice between Dulinor on the throne or Strephon.  And if they can 
arrange for Strephon to owe them big time for saving his bacon, all the better.

Yeah, thinking about it more.  The Zhodani own most of the mind reading 
market, would have a spy network that could pick up wind of Dulinor's plot 
in advance, and then they'd decide to tip off Strephon through people who 
are guaranteed to be loyal to Strephon.  They'd also be aware of the real 
Strephon and his whereabouts.  They transmit their message through their 
usual clandestine channels (diplomatic and spy network within the 
Imperium).  A small party of Zhodani, consisting of the diplomatic courier, 
his military escort, and Zhodani psionic adepts undercover as Imperial 
citizens who are additional security for the diplomatic courier but the 
courier himself is not aware of their true nature.  He thinks they're just 
Imperial citizens headed in the same direction, in a hurry for some 
plausible-sounding reason.  They run afoul of the misjump plot 
device.  They need transport now, and it has to be _fast_.  There's the 
'Beowulf', a 60-year-old merchant, that was bought surplus from the 
Imperial Navy where it was used as a small despatch courier.  It's held 
together by it's talented and devoted crew, who pay factors all over the 
sector to line up courier jobs for them, and thus eke out a living, and get 
to travel the universe.  The Zhodani party _needs_ the 'Beowulf' and 
they're in a hurry.

But, the 'Beowulf' crew are already on a scheduled job, and one that pays, 
and it's going in the opposite direction from where the Zhodani are 
headed.  Sure, the Zhodani can offer virtually unlimited pay to the Beowulf 
as inducement to drop their current courier job in favor of taking the 
Zhodani where they want to go.  But the Beowulf's crew are predisposed to 
disliking and mistrusting the hated Zho's.  Some plot tension and character 
tensions develop.  Some local subplots have to develop also, for the Zho 
and the Impies to struggle through together, and through these actions the 
Impies learn to see the Zho in a new light.  They begin to shed their 
prejudices, but hardly all at once.  Now they're not so sure that they're 
right to be automatically suspicious of the Zhodani.

The fabulous sums dangled by the Zhodani courier tip the scales.  And, 
fortuitously, the local factor (played by Sidney Greenstreet) who the 
'Beowulf' usually does business with, and is their friend and confidante, 
let's them know another ship has arrived in system (one of their 
urgent-delivery competitors) who can be paid to finish the delivery job the 
'Beowulf' is already on.  Still some lingering reservations about Zhodani, 
but they accept the charter and the Zhodani and the 'Beowulf' crew proceed 
together.  Through many jumps, including across the Rift.

The diplomatic courier is actually a very high ranking diplomat who would 
not normally be used merely as a courier, but the significance of this 
mission dictated that he be used partly to lend credibility to his message 
and partly because he is entrusted with a full briefing on the contents of 
his message and his empowered to negotiate directly with Strephon.

Realizing that too much distance/time has been lost because of the misjump, 
the diplomat has to change destination from the planet where the real 
Strephon was sojourning, to meeting Strephon en route as he travels back to 
Capital.  At each port of call, he must contact the local Zhodani consulate 
or spy to pick up the latest news on the precise location reported for the 
real Strephon.  Some minor adventures are associated with meeting these 
local contacts, and the Beowulf crew are required for getting safely 
through these dirtside adventures.  More bonding with the Zhodani.  Their 
reservations and prejudices continue to erode but are not entirely gone 
yet.  Too many centuries of bad history, not to mention the ugly memories 
from the recent FFW.  The crew continues wearing psionic shield devices at 
all times.

The two groups continue working together and are now extremely close to the 
real Strephon.  But the crew keeps wondering why the diplomat keeps playing 
games with naming their final destination (the diplomat doesn't _know_ the 
final destination, he can only guess at the best intercept course to catch 
Strephon).  Finally, one last jump will catch Strephon's caravan.  But 
exactly which jump?  Guess wrong, and more time is lost and Strephon will 
get further away, because he is travelling at jump-6 maneuever-6, a 
combined speed that the 'Beowulf' can almost but not quite match.  (I think 
the Beowulf should be jump-6 maneuever-5 agility-5.) Guess right, and bingo 
they're in the same system as Strephon and can initiate communications and 
arrange a meeting.  The diplomat doesn't have the expertise to predict the 
right jump destination with reasonable chance of success.  He needs all the 
navigational expertise the Beowulf crew can give him.  But for that, he 
needs to tell them a lot more about the identity of the person he is 
chasing that he really wants to.  The 'Beowulf' captain tells the diplomat 
she needs a lot more info from him, he is too vague, she can't predict what 
he's asking without knowing a lot more about the party they're trying to 
catch up to.  Another hurdle to clear in building trust.  And when he does 
tell her, what do she and her crew make of a Zhodani diplomat escorted by 
two hired Zhodani killers who is desperate to catch up to Strephon but 
doesn't want anybody to know?  Suspicious, eh?  More trust-building hurdles 
to clear.  Finally, the Zhodani diplomat and the 'Beowulf's' retired 
Imperial Navy captain trust each other enough to work together. Even then, 
using all their pooled smarts and experience, it's a dice roll whether 
they've guessed the right place to jump and intercept Strephon.  They're 
now in jump space for a week, waiting, anxious.  The captain:  am I right 
to trust this Zho or are they duping me and I'm bringing an assassin to 
meet my vulnerable Emperor?  The diplomat:  these fearful, paranoid, 
suspicious, Impies.  I envy them their freedom and wildness, but how can I 
be gambling so much on the success of a perfect example (the captain) of 
just such wildness?  Is the captain intentionally misleading me?  (Still 
wearing her psi shield, or maybe just one of those rare one-in-a-million 
immunes to telepathic reading.) And if not, did the captain guess the right 
jump destination?  Tension builds.

Did I mention that the diplomat is a man and the captain a woman?  I mean, 
come on.  We can't make a movie like this without some sort of romantic 
interests! Both a young-looking forties, both played by very attractive 
actors?  And is that...sexual tension (!) underlying their many 
disagreements and negotiations during these weeks of travel and adventure?

Things happen during the week of this last jump.  But neither of them seem 
willing to publicly admit to the wild and delirious passions they shared 
during the quietest hours of this last jump, they tried to keep their 
trysts a secret, and we think they've succeeded.  Do they still refuse to 
admit to themselves even that they are falling in love (or at least serious 
lust) with someone from a foreign and looked-down-upon civilization?  To 
the captain, Zhodani equals mind raping totalitarian who doesn't care about 
individuals.  To the diplomat, Imperial equals barbaric, psychologically 
stunted and bloodthirsty individuals who run amok only slightly less than 
wild vargr do.

I'm thinking Sigourney Weaver, Renee Russo, or maybe Nicole Kidman for the 
captain.  Somebody who is an excellent actress, has sex appeal, and can 
carry off being physical and adventurous, and also a bit world weary.  The 
diplomat has to have an aristocratic British accent of course <G> and also 
be a talented enough actor to carry off being strong, independent and 
capable, but somehow project an indefinable vulnerability and need for 
protection while travelling through such "barbaric" provinces.  Best 
casting I've come up with for him so far is Hugh Jackman, who seems pretty 
good.

There should also be a couple of romantic storylines for minor characters 
in the two parties.  Perhaps the aide to the diplomat and one of the ship's 
crew.  It doesn't take them long to acknowledge their interest in each 
other.  They should be fairly uncomplicated and likable characters. and the 
audience should be sympathetic to them.  They still have to overcome the 
outside barriers to their love of conventional prejudices and their mutual 
bosses being somewhat disapproving.  The second romantic storyline should 
involve one person from each party, also.  I'd like for there to be a vargr 
in each group.  I guess that means either one of the undercover Zhodani is 
a vargr, or one of the military escorts.  Perhaps both escorts should be 
from a vargr unit that has been part of the Zhodani Consulate for centuries 
and has a long and honorable tradition of guarding diplomatic missions and 
embassies.  Alternatively, if you want to play the alien race romance angle 
for much broader laughs, one of the romantic pair can be vargr while the 
other is aslan.  The first romantic pairing should be consummated 
(off-screen, this is a G or PG movie) before the two main characters have 
their trysts.  The second, alien-race pairing should be after.

The climactic scene of the film should be final jump succeeds at arriving 
in the correct star system, and succeeds at guessing where in the star 
system would be the smartest place to intercept Emperor Strephon's 
incognito small fleet.  (Smart deductions, plus a very good dice roll from 
someone with very high Navigation skill.  :-)  There are then a few quick 
scenes where the 'Beowulf' signals the Emperor's ship, recognition codes 
are exchanged between the diplomat and a high advisor of the Emperor's, and 
we see from the bridge of our beloved 'Beowulf', over the shoulder of the 
diplomat who is standing behind the pilot and captain, the form of the 
light cruiser carrying the Emperor growing larger and larger.  Docking is 
imminent, and we get a quick cut of the Fire Control Officer aboard the 
Emperor's ship in continuous contact with the Fire Control Officers on the 
escort vessels, advising them the approaching merchant has been recognized 
as friendly but maintain targeting lock with bay and spinal mount 
weapons.  The 'Beowulf' exterior is shown, looking rather small docked 
against the frontier cruiser that carries Strephon.

Those quick scenes should serve to introduce a few characters of the 
Emperor's party who will become prominent in the sequel.  Minor reference 
to them by name might have been made very quickly earlier in the film.  The 
final scene of the film is the entire party ushered into an extremely 
impressive yet informal audience chamber, the rest of the party left near 
the entrance under very professional guard and the diplomat and aide 
escorted forward to be formally introduced to the Emperor.  We see the 
Emperor moving forward with innate grace and noble bearing, and a curious 
smile.  Be sure to look for the sequel soon in theaters everywhere.

I like to picture the characters encountering at least a dozen Imperial 
Guard in full battledress from the moment they board the ship and all the 
into the audience chamber itself.  Starting with two in battledress as they 
pass through the airlock.  Perhaps one of the earlier minor difficulties 
the 'Beowulf' crew and diplomats had to overcome involved a graphic 
demonstration for the audience's benefit of just how amazingly capable 
battle dress can be.  Forget Boba Fett in 'Star Wars' and think more like 
the 'Predator' but with military weaponry instead of hunting weaponry.

I'd like to devise more about the individual characters, and flesh out more 
of the storyline, particularly the various minor adventures besetting the 
two parties during their journey and how these adversities draw them closer 
together over time.  And yes, I know we can't cast Sidney Greenstreet as 
the factor/friend because he's dead.  :->  How about uhhhhh Oliver Platt??

I think the rival fast merchant that took over our protagonist merchant's 
delivery should make a reappearance in the second film.  The trick is going 
to be casting Dulinor and writing the scenes to show his arrogant and 
decidedly lethal plans to assassinate the Emperor but only because he 
thinks it is for the greater good.  We have to show that he loves the 
Imperium, likes and respects Strephon, but just thinks there is only one 
sophont who is the right soph for the job at this critical juncture in 
history.  He goes through some soul searching, but we TMLers already know 
the answers he comes up with.  The Dulinor scenes should show all this, but 
be very economical and not take a lot of screen time.  Dulinor should be 
played by someone very tall and an obviously very fit physical 
specimen.  Lucan...?  I'm seeing Joaquin Phoenix, who did such a great job 
in a similar role in 'Gladiator'.

That's what I have so far, folks.  Comments?

--Laning
(traveller geek code is MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 08:12:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:12:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <DAV16h3lrGS1DknvCes0001cd0f@hotmail.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?  What does canon say on =
this?

Some parameters here:  I'm not talking about hijacking a ship, nor am I =
talking about ship theft incidental to piracy.

Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved in stealing a =
starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.

It seems to me the problem can be considered as four separate issues:

1.  Identifying a likely (unoccupied) target that can be operated by a =
prize crew no larger than the size of your theft team.  Scout ships =
(which often fulfill these conditions) will be targeted for theft much =
more frequently than battlecruisers (which hardly ever do).

It seems one could accomplish this step with visual surveillance, inside =
information from the ships crew or spaceport personnel, and/or Neural =
Activity Sensors.

2.  Approaching the vessel.

This ranges from child's play (an unguarded scout grounded in a sparsely =
populated area with the sole pilot/crewmember dead or distant), to an =
indirect form of suicide (an experimental warship docked at the naval =
base.)

Presumably, accomplishing this would be well nigh impossible at an A =
starport, non-trivial at a B and your better C's, and not beyond the =
realm of consideration at lesser facilities.

3.  Entering the vessel.

Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let you in. <g> =20

How do starships determine who to admit?  Whoever holds the key?  =
Voiceprints?  Biometrics?  Passwords?  Some combination?  Given =
sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar (doubtful) or a cutting =
torch (probably)? =20

Having forced your way in what active countermeasures do you have to =
defeat?  Does the ship send combat bots?  Does the environmental system =
become hostile?  Does an anti theft program deliberately destroy the =
Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the j-drive useless?

4.  Establishing vessel control.

Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do you get the starship =
to respond to your commands?  When you plop down on the pilot's couch =
what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver drive?  =
Again, is there a key?  Biometrics?  PIN numbers?  How much trouble =
would there be in performing the starship analog of a hot-wire job?

Awaiting feedback.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com




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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?&nbsp; =
What does=20
canon say on this?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Some parameters here:&nbsp; I'm not talking about =
hijacking a=20
ship, nor am I talking about ship theft incidental to =
piracy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved =
in stealing=20
a starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It seems to me the problem can be considered as four =
separate=20
issues:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>1.&nbsp; Identifying a likely (unoccupied) target =
that can be=20
operated by a prize crew no larger than the size of your theft =
team.&nbsp; Scout=20
ships (which often fulfill these conditions)&nbsp;will be targeted for =
theft=20
much more frequently than battlecruisers (which hardly ever =
do).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>It seems one could accomplish this step&nbsp;with =
visual=20
surveillance, inside information from the ships crew or spaceport =
personnel,=20
and/or Neural Activity Sensors.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>2.&nbsp; Approaching the vessel.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This ranges from child's play (an unguarded scout =
grounded in=20
a sparsely populated area with the sole pilot/crewmember dead or =
distant), to an=20
indirect form of suicide (an experimental warship docked at the naval=20
base.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Presumably, accomplishing this would be well nigh =
impossible=20
at an A starport, non-trivial at a B and your better C's, and not beyond =
the=20
realm of consideration at lesser facilities.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>3.&nbsp; Entering the vessel.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let =
you in.=20
&lt;g&gt;</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>How do starships determine who to admit?&nbsp; =
Whoever holds=20
the key?&nbsp; Voiceprints?&nbsp; Biometrics?&nbsp; Passwords?&nbsp; =
Some=20
combination?&nbsp; Given sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar=20
(doubtful) or a cutting torch (probably)?&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Having forced your way in what active =
countermeasures do you=20
have to defeat?&nbsp; Does the ship send combat bots?&nbsp; Does the=20
environmental system become hostile?&nbsp; Does an anti theft program=20
deliberately destroy the Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the =
j-drive=20
useless?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>4.&nbsp; Establishing vessel control.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do =
you get the=20
starship to respond to your commands?&nbsp; When you plop down on the =
pilot's=20
couch what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver=20
drive?&nbsp; Again, is there a key?&nbsp; Biometrics?&nbsp; PIN =
numbers?&nbsp;=20
How much trouble would there be in performing the starship analog of a =
hot-wire=20
job?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Awaiting feedback.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:texasredshift@hotmail.com">texasredshift@hotmail.com</A></=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 08:42:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:42:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204010842.AAA08687@molly.iii.com>

"Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com> writes:

>How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?  What does canon say on =
>this?

Canon says little that I know of.  Generally, I assume it's hard.

>Some parameters here:  I'm not talking about hijacking a ship, nor am I =
>talking about ship theft incidental to piracy.
>
>Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved in stealing a =
>starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.
>
>It seems to me the problem can be considered as four separate issues:
>
>1.  Identifying a likely (unoccupied) target that can be operated by a =
<snip>. Not a huge problem, unless there's something unusual going on.

>2.  Approaching the vessel.

Agree.  This is dependent on assumptions about computerization; robots 
in most versions of traveller might be smart enough to object, though
by and large they won't be permitted to shoot you outright.
>
>3.  Entering the vessel.
>
>Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let you in. <g> =20
>
>How do starships determine who to admit?  Whoever holds the key?  =
>Voiceprints?  Biometrics?  Passwords?  Some combination?  Given =
>sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar (doubtful) or a cutting =
>torch (probably)? =20

For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't get
in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
do the ship much good, however.

>Having forced your way in what active countermeasures do you have to =
>defeat?  Does the ship send combat bots?  Does the environmental system =
>become hostile?  Does an anti theft program deliberately destroy the =
>Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the j-drive useless?

Most likely, none of the above; the ship yells for help and goes into 
lockdown mode.  Paranoid owners could easily equip the ship with kill
switches in a few critical concealed junctions.

>4.  Establishing vessel control.
>
>Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do you get the starship =
>to respond to your commands?  When you plop down on the pilot's couch =
>what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver drive?  =
>Again, is there a key?  Biometrics?  PIN numbers?  How much trouble =
>would there be in performing the starship analog of a hot-wire job?

For higher tech ships, most likely you're defeating biometrics, plus a
rather smart robot brain.  Unless you can steal startup information from
the owner, most likely you're talking hours or days of work, particularly
if kill switches have been installed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 08:59:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 03:59:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>
>For higher tech ships, most likely you're defeating 
>biometrics, plus a rather smart robot brain.  Unless you can 
>steal startup information from the owner, most likely you're 
>talking hours or days of work, particularly if kill switches 
>have been installed.
>
I have the feeling that an Imperial ability to commandeer 
your ship is a factor here.  Currently, the penalty for 
failing to obey orders when boarded has a variety of 
punishments, ranging from large fines, to loss of your 
license, loss of your ship (which may belong to your 
employer, not you), and probable jail time.  Even if they 
don't find anything else wrong.

There are probably locks of some sort.  But imagine if the 
crew was disabled by a malfunctioning life support system, 
and headed on a hazardous course.  Under your system, no 
rescue crew would be able to board normally, and if they did, 
they couldn't fly the ship.

I would bet that some locking system exists.  But probably 
not one that would then become more defensive if the locks 
were bypassed.  The locks are probably designed to defeat the 
majority of criminals, not those with sophisticated equipment 
(like the Imperial Navy).  It's probably coded into the 
ship's software by law -- even if they don't have the 
password or keys to get in, the Navy can override your ship's 
computer and seize control using simple, but sophisticated 
equipment when they board.

There might even be an interface that works through your 
transponder's software.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 09:03:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (P-O Bergstedt)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 11:03:17 +0200
Subject: [TML] Burn Heretic, Burn!
Message-ID: <3CA82255.1CACE976@berka.com>

After 102 votes, the Heresy IMTU poll is now closed.

In TATU (The Average Traveller Universe),
almost everyone is a heretic.

The result was: 
he++   23.53%
he+    51.96%
he     15.69%
he-     7.84%
he--    0.98%

Compare this result with previous poll:
http://zho.berka.com/polls.html

(The new poll is about Drop Tanks.)

  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN
/ * A o \_____/       \_____
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:24:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:24:11 +0800
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8A5CB.29530.200B430@localhost>

Hi all!

On 1 Apr 2002, at 3:59, John T. Kwon wrote:

> There are probably locks of some sort.  But imagine if the 
> crew was disabled by a malfunctioning life support system, 
> and headed on a hazardous course.  Under your system, no 
> rescue crew would be able to board normally, and if they did, 
> they couldn't fly the ship.
> 

Personally, I don't think that rescue ships would be all that likely 
anyway.  Salvage ships, maybe, but not rescue ships.

BUT, even if there were rescue ships, I bet they would have similar 
equipment to salvage ships (I'm thinking the beginning of /Aliens/ 
here) -- super-heavy-duty laser cutters, universal airlock adapters, 
the whole works.  If there really /is/ an emergency, and the rescue 
crew is authorized to enter the ship, they're not going to want to 
wait for the proper codes from Central Command and then for the 
locks to recognize them.  Parallel: In a car wreck, the paramedics 
don't try to find the right key, they just get out the Jaws of Life.  

In other words, I think that gaining access to a ship by pretending 
to be a legit authority would be quite hard, but blasting your way in, 
if you could first disable the crew, would be relatively easy.  I guess 
it depends on your final purpose...?

-- Rachel

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:51:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:51:48 PST
Subject: [TML] Splat gun
In-Reply-To: <197.49c174e.29d93b05@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20401.025148.6F4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>    Hi gang,
>    After seeing stats for one of these things someplace on-line, I got to 
> wondering just what exactly _IS_ an Aslan Splatgun anyhow?

Probably derived from the Centran splat gun. Find a copy of the
recently expanded re-issue of Christopher Anvil's "Pandora's Planet"
for an interesting story, and some examples of why Scouts have
nightmares. 


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:35:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:35:18 PST
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20020401084436.C5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Well, you actually *could* use EM fields to steer a high temp plasma
>> "plume" outside of the ship and retreive the cooled ions. <g>
>
> Not if you're looking to be stealthy!
>
> There is also the problem of pumping waste heat up to enormous
> temperatures, requiring something like 99.99% efficiency every step of
> the way.

Actually, if you are using a fusion reactor that involves magnetically
confined plasma, 8000 K is a quite *low* temp for the "exhaust" end of
the cycle. <g>


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:58:03 PST
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020401084647.D5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20401.025803.2u9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> On the other hand, a straight line course to the jump limit in a
>> direction at right angles to the line joining the start and end points
>> of the jump, and then accelerating at an angle to get the right vector
>> might be simpler. More time, but only two vectors to figure.
>
> Yes, it's simpler.  That's the course that ships lacking a navigator
> might take :)

Navigators prefer to minimize heading changes for some strange reason.
<g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 10:53:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:53:53 PST
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020401083839.B5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20401.025353.0o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> I'd say +/- 100 km/s is probably considered "good enough" most of
>> the time.
>
> For the destination system, yes.  Of course, if there is any leeway at
> all, freighter captains are probably going to arrive as "hot" as they
> can within those limits.  Time is money, and arriving with a 50 km/s
> inward vector instead of 0 saves about 3 hours.
>
> 3 hours doesn't necessarily sound like much out of a week's trip, but
> it does save about 5 Cr per dton of cargo and (probably more
> importantly) increases the chance of getting into port before a
> competitor does.

The problem is that if you were aiming for a point "ahead" of the
planet, and came out of jump late, your vector will be *away* from the
planet because you are now "behind" it. 

That is, your vector is pointed at where the planet was when you
expected to emerge from jump, which is behind where it is when you
*actually* come out of jump.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:03:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (P-O Bergstedt)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:03:29 +0200
Subject: [TML] GRUPS Traveller Reviews
Message-ID: <3CA85AA1.175A2553@berka.com>

Read some reviews of some new
GRUPS Traveller products at URL:
http://zho.berka.com/review.html

  _____         _____   P-O Bergstedt
 /     \       /     \  Stockholm/SWEDEN
/ * A o \_____/       \_____
\   @   /     \       / Visit the Zhodani Base:
 \BERKA/       \_____/  http://zho.berka.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:10:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 05:10:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] re: Real Life Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020330213337.009e8010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020401131058.13191.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Did somebody watch Jaws when they were not quite old
enough?  That would probably do it. :)

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I can't stand to be in water where I can't see the
> bottom.  I'm a basket 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:23:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 07:23:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] F15D Scorpion Recon Fighter TL 11
Message-ID: <3CA80B0E.6302.4EB743@localhost>

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A Recon fighter design for the Consort and Kiev, Thanks for the Inspiration Anthony



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--Message-Boundary-11333
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Content-disposition: inline
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   ---- File information -----------
     File:  F15D Scorpion 15T Recon Fighter TL11.gtv
     Date:  1 Apr 2002, 7:21
     Size:  5184 bytes.
     Type:  Unknown

--Message-Boundary-11333
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--Message-Boundary-11333--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:30:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:30:54 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Playing around even more with the First In design sequence (hey, what else
am I supposed to do on a day like this?), I decided to calculate how the
number of places where complex animals (sentinent or non-sentinent) have
evolved are distributed over various world types.

I made a large (400.000 systems) data set, using a modifier of -11 to the
roll (in step 15) for icy rockballs with subsurface oceans. This is what I
came up with:

Subgiant :  1%
Nitrogen : 37%
Ammonia  : 20%
Desert   : 10%
Icy sub. : 11%
Earthlike: 21%

(ie 21% of all complex animals in the dataset evolved under Earthlike
conditions)

These numbers clearly do not match the OTU, since the most common forms of
advanced life there are evolved under Earthlike conditions (including all
of the major races).

I would be happy to try various modifications and see how they affect the
statistics, but I need something to aim for. How should advanced lifeforms
be distributed over the various world types?

Jon, all you need to do is to give me a set of percentages (as above), and
I'll happily tweak the modifiers to match those percentages.

A suggestion for a future reprint of GT: First In would be to include two
sets of modifiers for step 15: One that produces Traveller-like results,
and one that seems more in line with current science. To keep consistency
with the rest of the design sequence, the more realistic set would
probably be the default, while the Traveller-like set could be introduced
in a sidebar.

I think I may now call myself "rockhead"...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 13:40:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:40:59 +0200
Subject: [TML] Slightly OT: Transhuman space
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020330131738.009ec080@mindspring.com>
References: <20020330204047.4b56a9ad.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020330131738.009ec080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020401154059.1a5d3a2a.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Sleep when you're dead.  I haven't been able to determine if Warehouse
23 
> will deliver to the afterlife yet.  Damn fine book, and you can see why
i 
> want to adapt parts of it to Traveller.

I have now skimmed most of the book. Careful studies will have to wait
until I have properly studied what I really should study...  ;-)

I think I'll use this setting more or less as-is in order to introduce
some of my players to the joy of hard SF. If I tone down the most advanced
technologies a bit, things would be quite easy for newcomers to grasp.

Starting the game in 2041 would do the trick, focusing on the exposure of
the Ares conspiracy for starters, then more or less slowly (a few years at
a time) advance the campaign. This would allow all the developments to
come into focus, allowing exposure on every one of them.

Then, just for fun, I might throw in jump drive invention and the
encounter at Barnard's Star...  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 12:08:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:08:25 +0200
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <118.f28a399.29d90890@aol.com>
References: <118.f28a399.29d90890@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020401140825.473e1a87.jenry023@student.liu.se>

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> Probably because there are a lot more icy rockballs than there are
> Earthlike worlds.

Yes, absolutely. Also, icy rockballs are more likely to exist in older
star systems (around class M stars for instance), which increases the
complexity of native life.

Since canon doesn't have two thirds of all sentinent lifeforms living
under such conditions, the results are still strange to me.

These are my estimated probabilities of complex animal life (sentinent or
otherwise) on various world types:

Earthlike: 77%
Icy w/ subsurface: 46%
Nitrogen: 26%
Ammonia: 15%
Desert: 7%
Subgiant: 7%

If you want to tweak these numbers, what you need to do is to add
modifiers to the dice roll in step 15 of the design sequence.

Note: Since the design sequence is relatively complex, the exact numbers
should be taken with a grain of salt. In order to get better numbers, I
need to generate larger quantities of solar systems. I'll be happy to this
if you want better numbers.

> If you come up with an adjustment that seems right to you, let me 
> know - I'm told a reprint or second edition of First In is likely at
some
> point, so I'm assembling notes for changes to details of the world
> generation sequence.

Adding the following to Step 15 should do it:

"-X for icy rockballs with subsurface oceans"

where X is a number depending on the effect you desire.

X=0   Ten times more common than sentinence under Eartlike conditions
X=4   About five to six times more common
X=6   About three times more common
X=8   About 1.5 times more common
X=10  About 1.5 times LESS common (ie 0.67 times as common)
X=11  About 2.5 times LESS common (ie 0.4 times as common)

Note: The numbers above were relatively quickly generated, and are only to
be loosely trusted.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 12:12:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:12:23 +0200
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Timothy Little wrote:
<snip>
> Can a low-power organism afford power-hungry brain matter of the type
> you would expect for sentience?  If you're looking for an excuse, this
> should do.

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable explanation, thanks.  ;-)

Actually, the main reason I dislike the results is that they don't give
normal science-fiction settings. In a universe where the ideal habitat for
most sentinent races is an icy rockball, various classic SF stereotypes
don't fit in. In fact, in Traveller, most races are evolved under Eartlike
conditions, so the other numbers are also strange in that regard.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 14:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:13:17 -0500
Subject: [TML] 2 tons of beer and 4th place 8) (was CT Ship Design)
Message-ID: <OFCD639861.BF4D0240-ON85256B8E.004C0CE0@pheaa.org>







<snip>
>> about 7 months ago i entered the "Cortez" into Hot Rod Race. the Cortez
was
>> a modified Scout. well before the results where posted my company laid a
>> bunch of people off including me.
>>
</snip>
>>

>The Hot Rod race took place on the CT-Starships list.  The race results
were:
>                 Hellbent 20 pts
>                 Abrr Chatlqaf 19
>                 Princess Lucky 14
>                 Cortez 12
>                 Renown 10

WOO HOO! 4th place 8) i was so sure John and I would come in last. Not bad.
So you know Cortez is the scout ship of one of my NPC's Maria Vasquez. She
is a hot pilot and Johns char is a hot Engineer. between the two of them
nothing they can not do 8)

>Also, another quote re the Cortez...
--- In ct-starships@y..., "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@r...> wrote:
>> <snip>
>> My personal favourite design has to be Cortez, any ship that can stick
>> closely to the rules and still manage Jump-4, 5G  with 2 tons reserved
for
>> beer has to be a good design :)
WOO HOO!
I love it. if i can find a way to use this as my sig to the TML with out
spaming the rest of work with it ill do it 8) Besides you never work on a
hot rod with out beer 8)

Bill Lane

"My personal favourite design has to be Cortez, any ship that can stick
closely to the rules and still manage Jump-4, 5G  with 2 tons reserved for
beer has to be a good design :)" Jeff Greenly


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 14:32:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 09:32:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] City Class Frigate
Message-ID: <3CA86F98.CFB1CEB2@mindspring.com>

Be the first in your subsector to have a real Imperial Naval Warship
named after your city! Imagine the fun and hijinks when 75 sailors and
Marines drop into your daughters favorite club with 3 months of
accumulated pay. Send the name of your city, system and subsector to
Admiral Clarice X. Roman mailto:admiralroman@hotmail.com c/o the 100th
IN Fleet at Glisten, along with 0.02 Crimp.
Only the first twentyfour (24) cities to reply will have ships actually
named after them. The 0.02 Crimp fee is non-refundable. The Glisten
Naval Shipyard is not responsible for lost or delayed X-mail.

The keel for the original City Class Frigate "City of Son Son Solay" was
laid down in 1102 at the Bilstein Yards at Glisten/Glisten. A single
Squad Drop Tube allows insertion of up to 20 individuals, although
doctrine dictates that decoy capsules will be used to fill out a normal
15 man squad. Retrieval gigs are used as interface craft in combat
operations with the Armed launches performing non combat roles. 59 tons
of cargo allow extended patrols without resupply. The Secondary plant
powers the weapons and provides for an agility of two (2), unless the
beam Lasers are double fired, in which case the agility is one (1). The
City Class Frigate is most often seen in a task group of several ships
when the fleet is not massed for battle. Three squadrons serve with the
100th Fleet at Glisten. Ships are named for cities in the Spinward
Marches.

Craft ID:  City Class Frigate, TL 15, 1280.282 Mcr, Quantity discount
1152.254 MCr

 Hull:        1800/4500, Disp=2000, Config=5SL(Sphere), Armour=49G (3),
Loaded=23403.17, Unloaded=21652.58

 Power:    Primary 67/134, Fusion=18,000 Mw, Duration=720hrs/30 days,
Scoops, Purifiers(24 hours whole tank)
                Secondary 40/80, Fusion=10,800 Mw, Duration=72hrs/3
days,
                ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=1280hrs/53 days
 Loco:      90/180, Jump=4, 198/396 Maneuver=4G, Avionics-15 190kph,
Agility=0/2

 Comm:    Radio=System x2, Laser=System x2

 Sensors:  A-EMS (FrOb) x 2, Hi-Dnst-F (1km) x 2 , P-EMS (IntStlr) x 2 ,
Neutrino-E (10 Kw)  x 2
                Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=R  POP=R  PES=S  PEP=R

 Off:         20 Hardpoints, 20 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Bays:     100 ton Missile Bay-15 x1
                        Turrets:  Triple Laser-13     x 6 in 3 battery
                                      Triple Sand-10      x 4 in 4
battery
                        Missile magazine: HE=30 b/r, Nuclear=4 b/r
                         Total=1700 missiles. 1 b/r=50 missiles
                         Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Laser     5    -    -
                                           3
                             Missile   -   A    -
                                               1
                             Sand      4    -    -
                                           4

 Def:        Def DM= +7/9, Optimized Nuclear Damper-15 x1

 Control:  Computer=Model 7/fib w/ Circuit protection x 3,
Panels=Holographic Linked x 1823,  Large holo x 1,
               HUD holo x 30

 Accom:  Officers=14 Crew= 61 ( Bridge=4 Engineering=5 Gunners=26
Flight=14 Troops=14 Command=10 Steward=2)
               Small Staterooms=10, Bunks=70, Squad Drop Tube=1,
Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
               inertial comp, Airlocks x6

 Subcraft:  Retrieval gig x 2 (20 tons, Crew 3, TL 15), Armed Launch x 2
(20 tons, Crew 2, TL 15)

 Other:      Cargo=797.3 Kl/59.1 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=13619
Kl/1009 tons, ObjSize=Large
                One jump requires 6750 KL/500 tons of fuel


Author: Alan Spik

Canon notices: The Squad Drop tube is non canon.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
A man needs a mistress if only to break the monogamy
                                     -Unknown



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:07:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:07:36 +0100
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> A suggestion for a future reprint of GT: First In would be to include two
> sets of modifiers for step 15: One that produces Traveller-like results,
> and one that seems more in line with current science. To keep consistency
> with the rest of the design sequence, the more realistic set would
> probably be the default, while the Traveller-like set could be introduced
> in a sidebar.

This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might be.
Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in the
game universe are - IMO - dubious.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:14:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:14:56 GMT
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
Message-ID: <E16s3WK-0001Qf-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

I would like to see the document and give any comments if you please.

Beth
> Just finished going through what will be a rather long=20
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units=20
> in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may=20
> differ.
>=20
> But..  I need more input.  I've just moved a current day=20
> document a fair number of years into the future (out to TL10,=20
> so far), and I would like to take it a bit further, say TL12.
>=20
> I am interested in anyone's input concerning what might be=20
> standard operating procedure (instructions to individual=20
> soldiers, teams, and platoons).  Some of the detail I have is=20
> down to the items to carry.
>=20
> I am especially interested in what might be SOP in regards to=20
> weapons, employment of specific weapons (such as, "always use=20
> the plasma gun to break contact").
>=20
> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing=20
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages=20
> so far.
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:28:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:28:16 GMT
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
Message-ID: <E16s3jE-0001h7-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

Any chance of seeing these?

Beth

> I'd be interested to see this...
>=20
> In days past I used to write such manuals for a live-role-playing game=20
> based on 25th century space marines. These included a medical manual, EOD=
=20
> procedures and even the Uniform Code of Military Justice (a guaranteed=20
> cure for insommnia!).
>=20
> Hugs and kisses,
>=20
> Mexal,
>=20
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 15:49:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 07:49:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Real Life Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <20020401131058.13191.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020330213337.009e8010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401074834.009ecec0@mindspring.com>

At 05:10 AM 4/1/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Did somebody watch Jaws when they were not quite old
>enough?  That would probably do it. :)

No, I saw Jaws and went to the beach the next day.  In Santa Cruz, which is 
one of the biggest areas for Great Whites in the world.  I think sharks are 
tres cool.  I don't know what triggered this, it just *happened.*


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:12:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 08:12:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] re: Real Life Intrudes
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401074834.009ecec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020401161227.27322.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

Well, after I saw Jaws, the deep end of a cloudy
swimming pool was almost too much.  :)

I can remember going to the beach with my parents as a
boy.  We would rent a catamaran.  On the Mississippi
coast they put posts in where the water gets over 4-5
feet deep at high tide.  I would panic and cry when my
parents wanted to go "past the posts" on the cat. 
Now, mind you, the deepest part of this chanel (in the
area we were) is about 13-15 feet at high tide.  And
the sharks are rarely if ever found between the beach
and the islands.

I think I am OK with the water now, but occasionally I
will still have a bit of anxiety.

ObTrav: I can imagine there are some who have panic
attacks on their first trip into space and even more
with their first trip into Jump.  Put one of these
NPC's on the Char's ship and a few minutes from the
Jump point he freaks out.  He will pay for the return,
but the other passengers don't want to waste the time.


Paul
--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 05:10 AM 4/1/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >Did somebody watch Jaws when they were not quite
> old
> >enough?  That would probably do it. :)
> 
> No, I saw Jaws and went to the beach the next day. 
> In Santa Cruz, which is 
> one of the biggest areas for Great Whites in the
> world.  I think sharks are 
> tres cool.  I don't know what triggered this, it
> just *happened.*


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:23:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:23:17 -0500
Subject: [TML] I must be a gearhead...
Message-ID: <200204011623.DDB00400@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was reading the FAS site, and they have this diatribe 
against low-yield earth penetrating nukes.  They say there's 
no way to build a weapon that would penetrate that deeply and 
still contain the burst.  Well, they put a link to the 
equations on the page, so I looked up the lowest yield of 
Davy Crockett, and the penetration of the GBU-28 (concrete 20 
feet, earth 100 feet), and it looks like I only need 60 feet 
of penetration.

So, if I wanted to kill a bunker, just put the bomb into the 
ground just short of the bunker and he's bunkmates with about 
4 kilotons of nuclear explosion.  A little venting from the 
entry path, but the retarc holds the rest in.

Sounds like a good missile for Traveller, eh?

Well, the person I'm arguing with at FAS says it isn't a very 
useful weapon.  Which brings me to another question, if 
you're opposed to nuclear weapons, why use a technical 
argument?  It would be better to stick to a moral/ethical 
objection, because if you give an engineer/gearhead enough 
money and time, virtually anything can be made to work.

Especially nuclear weapons and earth penetrators.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:46:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:46:56 +0100
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
References: <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>

> Actually, the main reason I dislike the results is that they don't give
> normal science-fiction settings. In a universe where the ideal habitat for
> most sentinent races is an icy rockball, various classic SF stereotypes
> don't fit in. In fact, in Traveller, most races are evolved under Eartlike
> conditions, so the other numbers are also strange in that regard.

I don't think that the presence of complex lifeforms in the oceans of an
Iceplanet, 10km+ under the surface, is likely to noticeably going to affect
the Traveller universe. It's not as if you are going to actually meet any of
them on a day to day basis.

Of course all the Major races evolved on Earthlike worlds... Its had to
develop a spacefaring civilisation then there is a kilometres thick ice
sheet between you and the stars (not that you'd even know they existed...)

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:51:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:51:51 -0500
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
Message-ID: <200204011651.DDB04154@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I like to have robots, but there's a certain tedium to Book 
8.  So far, I've resorted to just "saying" that a robot is a 
certain way.  I don't really like the Star Wars robots, but 
there is a certain edge to the robots as presented in AI 
(where they are "nearly" like us, but still imperfect).

How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 16:56:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:56:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] does that make me an apostate?
Message-ID: <200204011656.DDB04760@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

As I've gotten older, I've just gotten to doing some 
equipment by "it's about this long, about this heavy, etc.."

I've done the same thing with NPCs.

Sometimes FFS drives me nuts. 

I seem to be able to write about some things better if I just 
say things are "just so".

After all, can anyone out there take any of the robot design 
sequences and come up with Gigolo Joe?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:15:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:15:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017681340.6838.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
> 
> Actually, if you are using a fusion reactor that involves magnetically
> confined plasma, 8000 K is a quite *low* temp for the "exhaust" end of
> the cycle. <g>.

The problem is waste heat from on-board systems, not direct inefficiencies of
power production.  For example, life support produces heat equal to its power
consumption, at a normal temperature of around 300K.

Of course, the big power consumption of a ship is for drives and weapons, both
of which will have unknown (but lower) heat output.  Biggest problem is
weapons, which have somewhat canon efficiencies, that are rather low.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:29:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:29:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017682194.5758.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> I have the feeling that an Imperial ability to commandeer 
> your ship is a factor here.  Currently, the penalty for 
> failing to obey orders when boarded has a variety of 
> punishments, ranging from large fines, to loss of your 
> license, loss of your ship (which may belong to your 
> employer, not you), and probable jail time.  Even if they 
> don't find anything else wrong.

Huh?  How is this relevant?
> 
> There are probably locks of some sort.  But imagine if the 
> crew was disabled by a malfunctioning life support system, 
> and headed on a hazardous course.  Under your system, no 
> rescue crew would be able to board normally, and if they did, 
> they couldn't fly the ship.

First of all, locks designed to be used in port are presumably already disabled
after you've taken off.  Secondly, most rescue/patrol craft will be able to
deal with a ship with impaired drives anyway, just push it into a more sensible
orbit.
> 
> I would bet that some locking system exists.  But probably 
> not one that would then become more defensive if the locks 
> were bypassed.

It depends on where you plan on landing.  Free traders who land on insecure
worlds probably have pretty extensive security, bulk cargo carriers who never
leave the mains probably have rather limited security.

> The locks are probably designed to defeat the 
> majority of criminals, not those with sophisticated equipment 
> (like the Imperial Navy).  It's probably coded into the 
> ship's software by law -- even if they don't have the 
> password or keys to get in, the Navy can override your ship's 
> computer and seize control using simple, but sophisticated 
> equipment when they board.

Doubtful.  The IN can seize control via the simple, but sophisticated equipment
known as guns.
> 
> There might even be an interface that works through your 
> transponder's software.

Even less likely.  Information like that can be stolen, and if so, is vastly
more useful to terrorists and criminals than it could ever be to the Navy. 
Again, the Navy can seize control through the exotic technique of 'superior
firepower'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:33:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 12:33:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>

MJD said:
>This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
>First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might be.
>Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in the
>game universe are - IMO - dubious.

I take a much less dour outlook than MJD.  I haven't read it, but so many 
people keep telling me how great 'First In' is that I think it was 
absolutely a worthwhile book and intend to either buy a reprint/second 
edition or get the original from Traveller Trader at Downport.com.  Sounds 
like the future edition will be updated with Mr. Rydholm's suggestions.

Traveller books have been in need of various "fixing" since at least the 
first edition of Book 5 - High Guard.  If GDW had decided not to fix that 
with a second edition, we'd be worse off.  I think that if there's any 
lesson to be learned from these instances, it's that you should always try 
to do more playtesting, analysis, debugging, copy editing, and editing 
before releasing a product.  Imperium Games being the poster child for that 
need.

Thanks Jen, for doing a very useful and interesting exercise with the 
distribution of 'First In' world gen results.  That sound you weren't 
hearing was hard drives saving the info you posted.  And thanks to the 
author of 'First In' for seeking constructive criticism and incorporating 
it into your work.  It's bemusing that your response to the criticism was 
so mature and professional, when so many of the most famous game authors of 
other games would have been defensive and even combative if placed in your 
shoes.  I know they would, because I've seen them placed in your 
shoes.  From its start, Traveller seems to involve a better class of 
writers.  (We'll leave certain obvious exceptions out of that statement.  :-)

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:37:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:37:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] I just found the psionics institute
Message-ID: <200204011737.DDD02290@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.remoteviewing.com/

The company is named Psi-Tech.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:41:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 12:41:33 EST
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>

> This is what happens when people decide to "fix" 
> Traveller. First In does not produce Traveller 
> worlds - however realistic it might be. Design 
> systems that do not allow you to create what already 
> exists in the game universe are - IMO - dubious.

It may surprise you to learn that I entirely agree
with you.

First In had two main design goals: realism and support
for Classic Traveller world generation.

Unfortunately, the further I went the more I discovered
that the two were completely incompatible. CT worldgen
(including the extended system in Book 6) simply breaks
the laws of physics. Repeatedly. In ways that are very
hard to gloss over.

My response was to make "realistic" the default setting,
and include a number of notes demonstrating how to go
about something more Classic in style if that was to
your taste. In retrospect that was probably the wrong
strategy. At the time I wasn't sure what the biggest
part of the audience would be - long-time Traveller
players or newcomers. Clearly, I guessed wrong.

If First In goes to a second edition, I think the world
design sequence will default to something much more
like Book 6 worldgen, with "realism notes" allowing the
referee to flesh things out or substitute more realistic
steps to taste. (About the only thing that I would "fix"
in the default sequence would be the formula for world
surface temperature in Book 6, which is not only wrong,
but wrong in such a way that it actually makes Book 6
much harder to use.)

I suspect that would make First In considerably easier
for long-time Traveller fans to use in their established
Traveller universes - while still allowing folks who
roll their own to be as realistic as they choose.

---
Jon F. Zeigler
JFZeigler@aol.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:45:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:45:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020316125548.A20449@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Mar 16, 2002 12:55:48 PM
Message-ID: <200204011745.g31Hji001663@localhost.uia.net>

As I've mentioned before, I've been toying w/ the idea of
inertial suppression as a means of fast accelleration in an
sf-rpg I'm *slowly* putting together w/ the help of some
friends. However, there's some conflict over how to achieve
this (I can email two articles which hint at the scientific
premise to anyone who's interested). There's also the problem
of unintended consequences. Since inertial suppression also
exists in Traveller (so that ships can accellerate at 6G
w/o squashing their crews), it might be a good idea to
consider these consequences for a bit.

I wrote in an earlier post that onboard a ship where inertia
was being supressed:
> one crewmember shoving another would be like a
> feather shoving a feather. They would feel exactly the same thing
> and would react with their environment in exactly the same way,
> because apparent mass in reduced for the entire environment,
> including both of them.

Tim countered:
> So long as the forces are also reduced, no problem.  e.g. Suppose a
> person has their mass reduced by a factor of 1000.  Of course, such
> force ultimately comes from chemical energies.  But then you have to
> worry about activation energies of internal chemical processes
> necessary to life.  OK, so handwave them to near-zero as well.  So all
> chemical bonds must be 1000 times weaker to match the mass reduction.
> Furthermore, the charge on the electron and proton must be shifted
> downward by the same factor of 1000, or atoms are no longer stable at
> their normal size.  Likewise the strength of the strong nuclear force
> must be downshifted.
> 
> So, what does this mean for sunlight impinging upon the spacecraft?
> Each visible photon from the sun now vastly exceeds the binding energy
> of atoms in the hull, and behaves very much like an intense x-ray
> source capable of vaporizing any material.
> 
> Now, the energies of photons emitted *inside* the ship are 1000 times
> lower due to lower atomic transition energies, and hence have
> wavelengths 1000 times longer.  This plays absolute hell with all
> sorts of physical processes, so you'd better lower Planck's constant
> by a factor of 1000 while you're at it to fix this up.

Basically, if I read him right, what he appears to be saying is that
if you lower inertia in a given space by 99%, people in that area will
have much more strength than they're used to having, because the
chemical reactions going on in their bodies which generate energy
will still be generating as much energy, but for a much smaller
apparent mass, meaning that they'll be able to perform extrodinary
feats (and quite possibly hurt themselves), and that the only way
around this is to downscale everything else, which generates a
very strange and inconsistent reality.

What do other people think about this argument?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:45:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:45:14 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <00d001c1d9a5$0cff6560$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> I take a much less dour outlook than MJD.

I didn't mean to sound *that* negative! It's just that part of the canon
problem with Traveller is the endless series of canon-fixes that keep
appearing, giving the canonistas something to cannonade one another about.
Each fix seems to create more problems than it solves!

>
> Traveller books have been in need of various "fixing" since at least the
> first edition of Book 5 - High Guard.  If GDW had decided not to fix that
> with a second edition, we'd be worse off.  I think that if there's any
> lesson to be learned from these instances, it's that you should always try
> to do more playtesting, analysis, debugging, copy editing, and editing
> before releasing a product.  Imperium Games being the poster child for
that
> need.

Oh yes! Can't argue there. Hence the T20 delay...

>
> Thanks Jen, for doing a very useful and interesting exercise with the
> distribution of 'First In' world gen results.  That sound you weren't
> hearing was hard drives saving the info you posted.  And thanks to the
> author of 'First In' for seeking constructive criticism and incorporating
> it into your work.  It's bemusing that your response to the criticism was
> so mature and professional, when so many of the most famous game authors
of
> other games would have been defensive and even combative if placed in your
> shoes.  I know they would, because I've seen them placed in your
> shoes.  From its start, Traveller seems to involve a better class of
> writers.  (We'll leave certain obvious exceptions out of that statement.
:-)
>

Like whom?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:49:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:49:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
Message-ID: <200204011749.DDD03964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
effects when you modify Planck's constant.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 17:51:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:51:18 +0100
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00e301c1d9a5$e66a4540$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>>
> If First In goes to a second edition, I think the world
> design sequence will default to something much more
> like Book 6 worldgen, with "realism notes" allowing the
> referee to flesh things out or substitute more realistic
> steps to taste. (About the only thing that I would "fix"
> in the default sequence would be the formula for world
> surface temperature in Book 6, which is not only wrong,
> but wrong in such a way that it actually makes Book 6
> much harder to use.)
>
> I suspect that would make First In considerably easier
> for long-time Traveller fans to use in their established
> Traveller universes - while still allowing folks who
> roll their own to be as realistic as they choose.

Can't argue with any of this. I want realism in worldgeneration (I'm still
an engineer by mindset) but I also want compatibility with existing
unrealism. Is that unreasonable or what?? Call me hard to please if you
will... But anyway, I wouldn't worry about what I said too much. I like
First In overall...
MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:19:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 10:19:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] I just found the psionics institute
References: <200204011737.DDD02290@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8A4BE.6B18B1F0@attbi.com>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> http://www.remoteviewing.com/
> 
> The company is named Psi-Tech.

"Found?", Major Ed Dames And Psi Tech are major guests on the 
Art Bell Show. "Sides Psi Tech claims "anyone can do remote
viewing", and as we know the Psi roll is for PCs only....

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:23:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:23:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017685386.1051.ajackson@ping>

JFZeigler@aol.com writes:

> First In had two main design goals: realism and support
> for Classic Traveller world generation.
> 
> Unfortunately, the further I went the more I discovered
> that the two were completely incompatible. CT worldgen
> (including the extended system in Book 6) simply breaks
> the laws of physics. Repeatedly. In ways that are very
> hard to gloss over.

With the exception of small worlds with breathable atmospheres, what's so bad
about CT worlds?  All you need to do to produce traveller-like worlds is have a
system that produces around a hundred worlds per hex, and then picks the
lifelike one ;)

I actually put together something more or less like this, a while back; I
figured out based on the general world generator the probable distribution of
certain characteristics for earthlike worlds, and thus you can simply directly
roll up the 1% of worlds that are interesting.  You'd need to add rules for
generating any non-earthlike worlds (say, 50% chance of an earthlike world, 50%
chance for a non-earthlike middle-zone terrestrial world), but that's not too
hard.

http://maps.grandsurvey.com/hero/worlds.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:42:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:42:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] Comm check
Message-ID: <20020401.104247.-84283.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:10:39 -0600 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
> ping ping ping ping ping
> 
> Here we go again.
> 
> ISS Agena at the outer beacon.

Welcome Agena, good to see you again.
This is the IS Virgin Isle (5,000 dton luxury resort vessel), resounding
with two pings

<ping, ping>

Agena, perhaps this visit you'll  swing by for a visit.
I'm 90 degrees starboard, parked just outside marker two, range 2,000 kl.

Don't forget, our luxurious suites, casino, Jacuzzi's, health club,
exotic clubs, glorious dining, and we mustn't forget Andrea's Place. All
here waiting for you the weary traveller.


.--.   ...       .----   .----   -....   ---...   ----.       ..      
.--   ..   .-..   .-..       .--   .-   .-..   -.-       -...   .   ..-. 
 ---   .-.   .       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..       ..  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   .-   -.   -..       ---   ..-.       -
  ....   .       .-..   ..   ...-   ..   -.   --.   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:45:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:45:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV16h3lrGS1DknvCes0001cd0f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>

Bill Scheets aka Tex asks how hard is it to steal a grounded or docked 
starship IYTU.

My results vary.  In my first Traveller game, the entire small group 
decided they needed to boost planet and do it right away.  Confident that 
Laning's RPG would be just as fast and loose as everyone else's in our 
gaming club, they hopped the starport fencing and began strolling toward 
their nearby scout ship that was under guard while they were being 
investigated for certain previous actions.

Only to be confronted by a second and a third fence.  Sheer luck dictated 
that no guards were being attentive to their security cams and no patrols 
happened by.  But you'd think the sight of three fences, razor wire, and 
guard towers would tip them off that this was going to be a nontrivial 
task.  Aha! they say, only some fences and a guard tower, This will be 
easy.  Laning groans and looks at them, shaking his head.  Misreading these 
signs from the referee, they are even further emboldened.

At the airlock to the scout, I decide the best thing is to have the guard 
doing sentry duty aboard the ship should come out to talk to them, and give 
them a chance to talk their out of this.  Or at least talk their into 
reducing into a minor misdemeanor.  As soon as the door begins opening they 
all shoot him.

This was an early session of my game, and I really wanted to attract the 
players to return for more sessions in the future by making it fun for 
them.  Big, big mistake.  I figured the best thing was just let them take 
off, escape orbit, jump out, and assume the life of fugitives.  Well, if 
you let your players bully you once, they're only going to run even more 
amok in the future.  That game did not last long.  In other Traveller 
gaming, my universe has included all the ultratechnological, ultraparanoid, 
doublecheck and doublesafeguards that owners and insurers could think of 
against starships being damaged or stolen.  Just as you'd expect for 
something worth hundreds of millions of credits.

If that same party tried that same stunt again, I'd have the guards at the 
fence shoot them with tranq and they'd wake up in jail.

The example I gave was for a starship they already "owned" (technically, 
the retired scout was in the reserves and was responsible for the ship as 
property of the Imperial Scout Service).  There would be voice and keyboard 
commands at the airlock exterior, interior, engineering, and bridge 
hatchways.  Voiceprint and thumbprint verification required.  Piloting and 
engineering controls would have had the same requirements again.  An 
already-authorized and verified person on the interior could override the 
authorization process at the airlock so that routine embarkation and 
disembarkation of passengers and crew would not be cumbersome.  If set the 
shipboard security system is set to higher states of alert, then more than 
one person is required to get past authorization checkpoints, and/or more 
secret security codes must be used.  A ship belonging to the ISS in that 
situation would have been handled by the local legal authorities requesting 
the ISS help them.  The ISS would have had the pilot's normal security 
programs temporarily suspended and inaccessible, and replaced them with 
their own.  They have tools and overrides of their own for just this sort 
of situation.

If the guard who was aboard the ship had wanted to talk to the PCs when 
they reached his airlock, he would have just activated an intercom and 
spoken to them from the bridge, while waiting for the starport's SWAT team 
to arrive.  If the PCs had brought weapons or explosives capable of 
breaching the hull of the ship and gaining access, there would be automatic 
security programs would have taken over to incapacitate the 
boarders.  Including, lighting, temperature controls, random and extreme 
variations in the artificial gravity grid (from weightless state to 
negative one gee to positive one gee then back to negative one gee, etc.), 
locking down all interior and exterior hatches, and even evacuating air 
from different spaces.  Each individual grav plate is separately 
controlled, and there are preprogrammed routines for turning off all grav 
plates in a corridor except one which is turned to maximum, and sequencing 
which plate is turned to maximum so as to pull someone in the corridor to 
one end or the other of it.  With sufficiently high-powered grav plates, 
someone can be thrown into an airlock, for instance.

Insurance companies and mortgage companies insist upon certain security 
precautions for ships, and these must be thoroughly inspected during annual 
maintenance.  Most security systems can be controlled by anyone who knows a 
username and password, and their are heirarchical levels of security.  For 
instance, passengers can set a few security options for their own cabins, 
crew can set security options on low berths, etc. and the captain can 
override those settings and even lock out those individual users, and the 
owner can override the captain.  I rely on simple password and username 
because they are fast and only require either spoken or typed input from 
personnel.  Personnel who might be depending for their lives on getting 
fast access to security and controlling it.  There are also many closed 
circuit, neural activitiy sensors, and other sensors used to determine 
whether hatches are open or shut, bulkheads or hull is breached, and so 
on.  Security console(s) located on the bridge.

If the 'Alien' from the movie boarded my ship, I'd be able to pull all the 
crew to the bridge or main engineering control station, open the rest of 
the ship to vacuum, and read various sensors to know the precise location 
of the alien.  Hiding in ductwork in the ceiling would not make a 
significant difference.  If unable to throw the alien into open space by 
playing games with accelerating/decelerating the ship, gravity controls and 
air pressure, then a complete set of vacc suits for crew is kept in the 
ship's locker, accessible only from the bridge, as are weapons.  Subsequent 
events to be determined by the referee.  :->

A ship with maneuver-1 would typically only have internal artificial 
gravity of one gee.  This would be sufficient to deal with most unwanted 
boarders, even if only the ship's automated security routines are triggered 
and there is no crew aboard.  But it wouldn't be much deterrent to the 
'Alien'.  Ships with maneuver-6 would have internal gravity to match, and 
be able to hurl an unwanted boarder around from positive six gees to 
negative six gees.

If thieves manage to take control of the ship enough to lift off from 
planet, they'll still have to deal with starport and orbital traffic 
control.  This will include knowing what identifying call sign they are 
assigned, filing a flight plan, and getting clearances.  A docked ship will 
also have its security system linked to the starport, and if the security 
is triggered at any point, the starport security will immediately be 
alerted.  The thief will still have to somehow evade starport, COACC, and 
Imperial facilities, in most systems.  Think satellites, missiles, deep 
meson guns, and SDBs.

Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no 
scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the 
fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world 
in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL 13 
COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much less 
likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 18:58:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:58:21 EST
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <12d.f1855a6.29da07cd@aol.com>

I've been following the debate over the "First In" design sequence with 
interest. Part of the "problem" comes, I suspect, from an assumption that any 
world can develop a complex ecosystem.

This is unlikely since the complexity of the ecosystem is likely to be 
related to the available food sources at the bottom of the food chain. These 
will be severely limited on an Ice ball, even an old one. Hence the easy way 
round the problem is to cap the positive modifiers available for non-ocean 
worlds. I'd suggest +6 is a suitable number, altough I'm not an expert on 
First In so other numbres might be more suitable. 

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:13:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:13:40 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <F198zoDtLvggeHVTugl000061ac@hotmail.com>

>Can't argue with any of this. I want realism in worldgeneration (I'm >still 
>an engineer by mindset) but I also want compatibility with >existing 
>unrealism. Is that unreasonable or what??

Not really. In programing it's called being bug compatible...

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Johnny)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:14:52 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: TML Digest V2002 #365
References: <20020331161119.260AC279E7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c1d9b9$e469ca40$6501a8c0@yucca.net>

On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 23:32:40 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> Just finished going through what will be a rather long 
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units 
> in Traveller.  
> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing 
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages 
> so far.

I'm a lurker, but I'd be willing to reveiw it too. gamersvault@yucca.net 

- Johnny


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:29:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:29:32 -0700
Subject: [TML] GRUPS Traveller Reviews
References: <3CA85AA1.175A2553@berka.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8C32C.7020903@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

P-O Bergstedt wrote:
> Read some reviews of some new
> GRUPS Traveller products at URL:
> http://zho.berka.com/review.html

Aren't all grups reviews supposed to start 'Bonk bonk onna head!' ?? ;-)

> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:56:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:56:47 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <00d001c1d9a5$0cff6560$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>

MJD quotes and then asks:
> >From its start, Traveller seems to involve a better class of
> > writers.  (We'll leave certain obvious exceptions out of that statement.
>:-)
> >
>
>Like whom?

I mostly had the aforementioned Imperium Games in mind.  :-<

Thanks for setting me straight on your "level of dourness".  And I really 
loved your little exposition about "canonistas" and "canonades".  Keep up 
the good writing.  :->

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 20:57:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:57:58 -0700
Subject: [TML] room clearing
References: <200203312207.DBP01462@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA8C9D6.9000605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> The only problem I have with the new room clearing technique 
> is that if people are expecting you, then all they need is a 
> long burst fire (belt fed) to keep you out of the room.
> 
> The new technique involves a team of 4 flowing into the room 
> and moving left or right as they flow in and occupy corners 
> of the room by flowing along the walls.
> 
> Might make an interesting scenario to game out using ACQ.
> 
> If the people flowing into the room have more actions per 
> combat round than the people occupying the room, it might 
> work. 
> 
> The use of grenades is now an exception in room clearing.  I 
> do remember throwing a simulator into a closet in MOUT 
> training, and being declared a casualty.  Maybe they have 
> something there.

I wonder how this compares, to, say, standard SWAT protocol for the 
same. They make extensive use of flashbangs (Presumably the 'stun 
grenade' mentioned in the link.

Presumably they are less likely to encounter return fire than soldiers 
clearing a room in a battle, but there's also the rather tricky (and 
now, all too common) mingling of non-combatants and combatants in 
today's battles.

Mis-calculate where enemy fire is coming from in a large building, and 
you could burst into the room next door, filled with refugees instead of 
bad guys.

All I can say is I DON'T want to be the poor sucker taking that #1 position.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:07:05 -0700
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <3CA8CBF9.3080002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Robert Houghton wrote:

> Actully I once saw a Catalina Flying Boat someone had refitted as a 
> mobile home winnebago style...thought this was as close to perfect as 
> you could get...if you could afford it...prolly only a little bit more 
> expensive as living on a boat and getting away for the weekend would be 
> a lot easier.

One reason that if I were to get filthy rich enough to afford it, I 
would get my own airplane: A C-130 outfitted as a flying RV.

They can land just about anywhere, even on unimproved runways, have a 
long range, parts are readily available, they're damn near 
indestructible, and there's a LOT of room.

I'm picturing two decks: a living deck and a garage deck, where you park 
your car/boat/atv's, hell you could carry along an ultralight asa 
'dingy' ;-)...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:22:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:22:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012122.DDL00281@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
>Subject: Re: [TML] room clearing  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>All I can say is I DON'T want to be the poor sucker taking 
that #1 position.
>

The more I think about it, the more I think it relies on 
having four people who are all well-practiced.  If you can 
all pour through the door before anyone inside can really 
react, it might work.  

Door charge set by #4 man blows door 
#1 man moves in, keeping back to the wall, moving to far 
right corner
#2 man buttonhooks to left near corner
#3 man right to right near corner
#4 straight left to far corner

Short bursts at any targets. Enter room with rifle shouldered.

The rapid pace is what is supposed to work here. Might be 
different in zero-g.

If you're slow, however, or unfamiliar, or get mixed up, 
you're going to get shredded.  I would bet that even an 
experienced team should practice this drill if they hope to 
pull it off.  For boarding, I would bet that the team might 
even do a drill on a stateroom or airlock on their own ship 
prior to boarding your ship.  Plus, they would call up 
deckplans and study them.

The other thing they would have going for them if they don't 
throw grenades (which are indiscriminate) is that they can 
enter multiple ingress points on the ship, with a lower rate 
of fratricide.  They can use the portable hull breaching/pier 
demolition charge to get into the ship.  Let's say two four 
man teams at each entry point, three entry points on a 400-
ton ship.  That's 24 men pouring into the ship without going 
through airlocks.

Looks like throwing grenades is for bunkers and for breaking 
contact.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:24:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:24:26 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <002401c1d9c3$ac6b2e40$6e9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >Like whom?
>
> I mostly had the aforementioned Imperium Games in mind.  :-<

Aha. My own pet hate is Imperium Games' editorial system, which actually
insterted spelling mistakes into my work! Spellchecker allowed to run
without supervision, I guess. Some of the writing was good. And some of it
set off the depressurisation alarms, it sucked so bad.

>
> Thanks for setting me straight on your "level of dourness".  And I really
> loved your little exposition about "canonistas" and "canonades".  Keep up
> the good writing.  :->
>

We aim to please... or is that shoot to kill?

Guess I'm just on a bit of a hair-trigger about all the people wanting me/us
to "fix" this or that about the Traveller universe, TNE, or GURPS Trav. Fix
it enough times and it'll be something completely different to what you
started with. Like my computer...

Regards

MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:40:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:40 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <memo.163716@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3CA8C9D6.9000605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Greetings dear hearts.

It's about 10 years since I was taught this... no, more, it was 1987...

The British Army method is: -

2-man entry team with 'mousehole' charge, blows a hole in outside wall of 
building (we don't come in the front door).

Someone chucks a grenade in, closely followed by a 2nd 2-man team 
who charge in through the hole, shooting.

Inside, working in two 2-man teams, you alternate between doing the 
grenade chucking and the charging in.

Of course, this method is only used if you don't care about the survival 
of anyone inside, or indeed much of the house itself!

The alternate method used for hostage rescue makes use of flash-bangs 
rather than frags, and shooting only occurs when a target has been 
positively identified.

Everybody, at least if you're infantry, learns the first, explosive 
method. The other one takes a lot of practice to get right...

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:44:04 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <3CA8CBF9.3080002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com>
 <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>

Living on an airplane would not be fun.  All that loud buzzing.  And the 
bad air.  Yuck.

My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.

I like to throw in people living out the Traveller version of this dream 
wandering from planet to planet, living on their converted merchant.  The 
more oft-encountered version of people living an imitation of this dream is 
the crew of a merchant that is family, or like a family together.  They 
still need to hustle for the credits to pay off the bank, keep the ship 
fuelled and maintained, etc.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:48:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:48:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

(Megan Robertson)  says
>Subject: Re: [TML] room clearing  
>
>The British Army method is: -
>
>2-man entry team with 'mousehole' charge, blows a hole in 
>outside wall of building (we don't come in the front door).
>
>Someone chucks a grenade in, closely followed by a 2nd 2-man 
>team who charge in through the hole, shooting.
>
>Inside, working in two 2-man teams, you alternate between 
>doing the grenade chucking and the charging in.
>

Yes, that's very similar to what was SOP just prior to the 
last technique.  What you describe above is what is known as 
Battle Drill #6.

Evidently there are problems with frags, and with two men 
trying to go in simultaneously.  There was a determination 
that two men are too few to handle things in a room if even 
one person is left alive after the grenade.  Three is now the 
minimum, and four is considered ideal.

And no frags!
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:52:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:52:37 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <000001c1d9c7$899aafe0$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>

Warren Buffett didn't seem to mind...

Matthew W. Helton


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of laning
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 15:44
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)

Living on an airplane would not be fun.  All that loud buzzing.  And the

bad air.  Yuck.

My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.

I like to throw in people living out the Traveller version of this dream

wandering from planet to planet, living on their converted merchant.
The 
more oft-encountered version of people living an imitation of this dream
is 
the crew of a merchant that is family, or like a family together.  They 
still need to hustle for the credits to pay off the bank, keep the ship 
fuelled and maintained, etc.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:52:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:52:59 +1000
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020401084436.C5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20401.023518.1z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020402075259.B9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, if you are using a fusion reactor that involves
> magnetically confined plasma, 8000 K is a quite *low* temp for the
> "exhaust" end of the cycle. <g>

Yeah -- I wasn't actually counting the reactor as a direct source of
waste heat, since it has to be at least 99.99% efficient to provide
sufficiently high-quality power for pumping the *rest* of the waste
heat.

The problem comes with all the other ship's systems, the ones that
*use* the power provided by the reactor.  Obviously in stealth mode
you aren't thrusting or using weapons, but there's still environmental
support, sensors, control systems, LHyd cryo maintenance, and no doubt
hundreds of little things.  All of these would produce very low-grade
heat; probably at or near 300K.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 21:55:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:55:59 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <001f01c1d9c8$14f2af20$629193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> 
> My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
> twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.
> 
>

I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air force.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:08:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:08:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012122.DDL00281@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164502.02811320@pop.wizard.net>

Grenades are still for room clearing.  You just have to be judicious about 
using up your entire supply before you use up rooms that need to be cleared.

You also, as the link pointed out, have to be careful about not using 
powerful grenades in structures that will collapse.

And, of course you have to be careful to not clear a room that happens to 
include your own guys, or be in a room being cleared by your own guys.

No matter what specific drill you work out, speed and shock are still what 
you need to concentrate on using.  And judgment, heh.  The company 
commander's recommended room clearing drill seems effective regardless of 
its other attributes for three reasons.

(1) He gets a lot of people through the door in an extremely short 
time.  (Speed)
(2) He has a lot of people in the room all at once, each with automatic 
weapon as well as other fighting ability.  (Shock)
(3) The room clearing team has done a lot of practice and rehearsal.  (That 
makes any system work better.)

One other thing I'd like to note.  His drill assumes that you have the 
hallway(s) completely secured already.  As I recall, in European operations 
in WW2, things were often moving too quickly to have that luxury.  Or there 
weren't enough troops for it.

It all depends on the nature of the enemy and the nature of the 
terrain.  If the enemy is Nazi soldiers and the terrain is abandoned 
buildings constructed with strong materials and thick walls, then the "old 
battle drill" might work better.  If the enemy is militia and possibly has 
civilians nearby and the terrain is flimsily constructed buildings that 
sometimes have trouble with high winds, then his new battle drill might be 
better.

If I'm stuck defending a building that is being cleared by an enemy that 
has the superiority of force that the company commander seems to be 
implicitly assuming, then I would choose to withdraw from the building and 
pick a fight at a better time and place.  So yeah, his battle drill will 
succeed quite nicely at securing every room in the building.

If I'm clearing rooms with TL 12+ troops, then I think I'd rely a lot on 
neural activity sensors and advanced night vision that can see IR images 
through walls, depending on wall thickness.  My doctrine would be to have 
some assault troops with lots of personal armor protection do the room by 
room part, after less heavily armored troops secure the perimeter of the 
building or at least part of the perimeter.  I'd also try to use tranq gas 
or riot gas.  IIRC, US troops in Viet Nam found that CS was very handy for 
clearing rooms without increasing the number of civilian casualties even 
higher than it was already climbing.  If there was very little chance of 
civilians in the building, then I'd go with stun or frag grenades, 
depending on the structure.  Or maybe just lob some white phosphorous RAM 
grenades in from the street and shoot anyone who flees the burning building 
as it collapses.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:05:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:05:32 +1000
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20401.025353.0o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020401083839.B5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20401.025353.0o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> The problem is that if you were aiming for a point "ahead" of the
> planet, and came out of jump late, your vector will be *away* from the
> planet because you are now "behind" it. 

Oh, no!  Here we go with the discussion about which frame of reference
the jump emergence point follows, and the dynamics of moving 100D
limits :(

IMTU, jump emergence point is stationary with respect to the ship's
vector on jump entry.  Hence if the ship arrives late with an
inward-bound velocity vector, it will precipitate out on the planet's
100D limit.  This is even standard practice IMTU.


As far as I can see, there are three main contenders for how the jump
exit point moves:

1) Stationary with respect to the ship's entry vector.  This is the
one I use.  (However, it is not stationary in the relativistic sense,
just in a Galilean sense based on jumpspace)

2) Stationary wrt an absolute "jumpspace" frame of reference.  In
general, this will be moving at least a hundred kilometres per second
relative to most stars, and hence plotting an exit position is only
possible along a track a few million kilometres long due to time
variation in jump.  This seems to be the one you are assuming, but
contradicts the canonical accuracy of jump plotting so I discard it.

3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:11:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:11:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20020402075259.B9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017699082.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> The problem comes with all the other ship's systems, the ones that
> *use* the power provided by the reactor.  Obviously in stealth mode
> you aren't thrusting or using weapons, but there's still environmental
> support, sensors, control systems, LHyd cryo maintenance, and no doubt
> hundreds of little things.  All of these would produce very low-grade
> heat; probably at or near 300K.

Of course, rules notwithstanding, there's no real reason to assume that a ship
that's stealthy when idle is also stealthy when accelerating.  I suspect that
secondary systems (everything but active sensors, weapons, and drives) don't
have a routine power consumption of more than around .1 kW/dton, which means a
100 dton ship (for a sphere, 7 meter radius, cross-section 150 m^2 or so)
receives more sunlight than the amount of waste heat it needs to go with (by a
factor of about 20), which is sufficient to let it basically pump all of its
waste heat away in a very narrow angle.

The tricky part here is that you'll need a cryogenically cooled hull...plus
really really optimistic solar converters. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:12:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:12:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020401221258.43908.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com>

--0-1646151845-1017699178=:43005
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


 >> And no frags!  & 4 man teams

What about using stun grenades (flash/bangs?)  Are those useful at all?



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send greetings for Easter,  Passover
--0-1646151845-1017699178=:43005
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<P>&nbsp;&gt;&gt; And no frags!&nbsp; &amp; 4 man teams<BR><BR>What about using stun grenades (flash/bangs?)&nbsp; Are those useful at all?</P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br>
<a href="$rd_url/welcome/?http://greetings.yahoo.com">Yahoo! Greetings</a> - send greetings for <a href="$rd_url/welcome/?http://greetings.yahoo.com/browse/Holidays/Easter/">Easter</a>, <a href="$rd_url/welcome/?http://greetings.yahoo.com/browse/Holidays/Passover/"> Passover
--0-1646151845-1017699178=:43005--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:13:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:13:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> 3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
> planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.

This one has several things to recommend it, in particular the fact that it
cripples some of the simplest methods of relativistic bombardment.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:18:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:18:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip long evaluation about situation, etc.>

And the Army sums all of that up in "always consider METT-T 
when making decisions".  

The scale I'm thinking about is the typical Traveller party.  
They don't have enough bodies to do it right, on the 
average.  So they'll be throwing grenades.  But the soldiers 
who are fighting against a party might just rush in like this.

I'm not sure that you could move that quickly under zero-g 
conditions.

I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run 
on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship 
from stem to stern.  Arguably, orders are going to tell a 
military unit to use the least level of violence necessary to 
take your ship, but if you successfully resisted one boarding 
attempt, and they wanted the ship, they could just give you 
all the "treatment" and board after everyone dies of 
radiation.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:20:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:20:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] does that make me an apostate?
In-Reply-To: <20020401200104.BCEA627A48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sA9y-0003Dx-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

> As I've gotten older, I've just gotten to doing some 
> equipment by "it's about this long, about this heavy, etc.."
> 
> I've done the same thing with NPCs.
> 
> Sometimes FFS drives me nuts. 

Agreed.  Any design system you need a spreadsheet before is too 
complicated for any RPG I play.
 
> I seem to be able to write about some things better if I just 
> say things are "just so".

The only danger to consider is unintended consequences (ie PC 
being able to use a common device as a game-breaker), and 
design sequences don't help much with that.
 
> After all, can anyone out there take any of the robot design 
> sequences and come up with Gigolo Joe?

Book 8 isn't bad.  AB101 (also featured in the various Traveller's 
Digest adventures) isn't all that different from Gigolo Joe.  GJ is 
basically a TL15 pseudo-biological robot with the most advanced 
robot brain possible at that TL.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:21:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:21:48 +1000
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020402082148.D9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> These numbers clearly do not match the OTU, since the most common forms of
> advanced life there are evolved under Earthlike conditions (including all
> of the major races).

True, but a number of the major races actually evolved on *one* world,
and were moved later :)

It seems the Ancients preferred species who live under Earthlike
conditions, for some reason.  That would certainly skew the results.
Remember, the Traveller universe has been subject to at least one
major bout of technological tampering.

The other problem is that even if a sentient race evolved in the dark
depths of a subsurface ocean of an icy world, who would know?  Even if
hundreds of them are discovered, what are their chances of having
meaningful interaction with other races?  I mean, they live buried
under kilometres of ice; not a place many explorers are going to go.

They also probably require thousands of atmospheres of pressure for
survival.  i.e. Passenger fares will be *very* expensive.

That's without the problems of a race evolving sentience under
conditions of very low energy.  They have to live *on* something,
after all.  Even computers need power.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:23:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:23:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012223.DDN00369@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Justin Bunnell asks
>
>What about using stun grenades (flash/bangs?)  Are those 
>useful at all?
>
Flashbangs might be useful depending on the situation.  
People in sealed suits are not going to be affected very 
much.  Probably don't work well in vacuum.

But unsuited people in atmosphere in a confined space like a 
ship's stateroom, ideal.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:25:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:25:51 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
Message-ID: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"MJ Dougherty" says
>
>I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my 
>own air force.
>

Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)

You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles, 
but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up 
with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right 
positions in government for the die hards, it might work.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:30:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:30:45 +1000
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020402083045.E9780@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Timothy Little writes:
> > 3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
> > planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.

> This one has several things to recommend it, in particular the fact
> that it cripples some of the simplest methods of relativistic
> bombardment.

Actually no, we already know that the *ship* retains its original
velocity through jump.  It is just the motion of the *exit point*
during the time of uncertainty in arrival that I'm talking about.
i.e. You plan to jump to (t,x,y,z) in some coordinate system or other.
You arrive at t+dt, due to uncertainty in jump duration.  What are the
resulting values of x, y, and z?

In fact, option 3 makes relativistic bombardment *much* easier, since
you know the near-c object will always emerge near the planned
position relative to the planet.  Options 1 makes it significantly
harder, but option 2 makes it near-impossible.  Unfortunately, option
2 severely contradicts canon.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:36:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:36:56 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> >I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my
> >own air force.
> >
>
> Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
>
> You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles,
> but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up
> with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right
> positions in government for the die hards, it might work.
>
>

Cool! New Zealand is nice. And it's close to Doug's Penguin Emporium too.

OBTRAV: sell that Free Trader, buy a small land mass, and be your own
fascist dictator.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:37:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:37:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017700663.113.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run 
> on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship 
> from stem to stern.

Not without some means of penetrating the Unobtainium shielding used to make
gas giant refueling survivable.  At TL 17, an antimatter microgrenade would be
handy for area clearing, since the resulting radiation is grossly high
penetration; a microgram of antimatter would produce radiation with cosmic ray
level penetration (half dose at around 6 cm steel) and a dose of around 20,000
rads at 10 meters, despite only having the energy of 4-5 kilos of high
explosive and probably vastly less actual blast because a lot of the energy
escapes the immediate area.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:39:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:39:33 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

They already have something today that will zoom under your 
car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
even restart).

There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then 
have something like this land at your feet.  You might be 
left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.

Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:42:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:42:57 -0500
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
In-Reply-To: <002401c1d9c3$ac6b2e40$6e9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401170844.027d1130@pop.wizard.net>

MJD said:
>Guess I'm just on a bit of a hair-trigger about all the people wanting me/us
>to "fix" this or that about the Traveller universe, TNE, or GURPS Trav. Fix
>it enough times and it'll be something completely different to what you
>started with. Like my computer...

LOL, mine too.  Yeah, spell checkers that are dumber than human copy 
editors are definitely a pet peeve of mine, also.  And while I applaud the 
very human instinct to tinker with things to make them better, I also 
applaud someone with the judgment to know when to stop.

As far as Trav things that have been improved over time but I'm not so sure 
they should have been, I would like to consider the introduction of the 
task system.  The more time goes by, the more it seems to me that most 
players are most comfortable if they just know what number they have to 
roll higher or lower than, and what the dice modifiers are.  Most people 
don't like to be troubled with Impossible, Difficult, Routine, or other 
arbitrary names.  They just want to know the number.  And it doesn't matter 
how easy you make it to remember the hash table for translating from name 
to number.  It's just human nature.  I realize this assertion is not 
welcomed by a lot of veteran game writers, but I do wonder if the 
designer's instinct to tinker maybe went too far there.

I used to be _much_ more friendly to the idea.  But, age has distilled what 
I see as its essential features to just two things.  If it's a hash table 
that slows things down instead of speeding them up, then do away with 
it.  Saves trouble for everyone all around.

Insofar as introducing a task system also led to written guidelines in the 
rules helping referees know what was considered Impossible, Routine, etc., 
that was a good thing.  As a referee, I like to know what the game designer 
really had in mind for how to apply a particular skill to various 
situations.  I may or may not follow it, but it sure helps keep the game 
flowing to have it already provided, and it helps keep the game universe 
consistent for the referee and players.

Getting down to brass tacks even more, it wasn't really a case of 
"introducing a task system".  It was calling an existing process by the 
name 'task system', and adding some more bits and pieces to how the process 
worked.  Whether called 'task system' or not, you still had the process of 
the player (often with referee assistance, or the referee alone) 
determining degree of success or failure by rolling dice, then comparing 
the result to a rule set that modelled the real-world (or fantasy-world) 
difficulty level of that task as part of the game's design.

I am all for keeping the interface for that task as easy and comfortable as 
possible, consistent with the degree of complexity deemed necessary for the 
rule set.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:40:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:40:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020402083045.E9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017700837.7515.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> Actually no, we already know that the *ship* retains its original
> velocity through jump.  It is just the motion of the *exit point*
> during the time of uncertainty in arrival that I'm talking about.
Ok, yeah, misread what you were talking about.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:43:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:43:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017701001.1051.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> They already have something today that will zoom under your 
> car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
> even restart).
> 
> There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
> a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
> will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
> Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
> go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In fact,
gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing the thing will
short out all of its electronics, not to mention other nearby electronics.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:46:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:46:18 +0100
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401170844.027d1130@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <003101c1d9cf$1c812d50$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> LOL, mine too.  Yeah, spell checkers that are dumber than human copy
> editors are definitely a pet peeve of mine, also.  And while I applaud the
> very human instinct to tinker with things to make them better, I also
> applaud someone with the judgment to know when to stop.

Or at least to wait until the fix is coherent, universal, and final....

>
> As far as Trav things that have been improved over time but I'm not so
sure
> they should have been, I would like to consider the introduction of the
> task system.  The more time goes by, the more it seems to me that most
> players are most comfortable if they just know what number they have to
> roll higher or lower than, and what the dice modifiers are.  Most people
> don't like to be troubled with Impossible, Difficult, Routine, or other
> arbitrary names.  They just want to know the number.  And it doesn't
matter
> how easy you make it to remember the hash table for translating from name
> to number.  It's just human nature.  I realize this assertion is not
> welcomed by a lot of veteran game writers, but I do wonder if the
> designer's instinct to tinker maybe went too far there.

I like the T4 system of target number defined by skill and stat; difficulty
(number of dice) by the referee. It works, it's simple. I can remember it.
And since everything is Formidable in my games, you know you have to roll
3D... (!) It's not the same as the MT task system, but it does the same job
and (for me) it's intuitive.

Complex is not better, not-no-never!

>
> I used to be _much_ more friendly to the idea.  But, age has distilled
what
> I see as its essential features to just two things.  If it's a hash table
> that slows things down instead of speeding them up, then do away with
> it.  Saves trouble for everyone all around.
>
> Insofar as introducing a task system also led to written guidelines in the
> rules helping referees know what was considered Impossible, Routine, etc.,
> that was a good thing.  As a referee, I like to know what the game
designer
> really had in mind for how to apply a particular skill to various
> situations.  I may or may not follow it, but it sure helps keep the game
> flowing to have it already provided, and it helps keep the game universe
> consistent for the referee and players.

Yes. better to understand how this rule relates to reality than to be able
to read seven pages of examples and special cases....

>>
> I am all for keeping the interface for that task as easy and comfortable
as
> possible, consistent with the degree of complexity deemed necessary for
the
> rule set.
>
>

Being a Rules-Dumbass, I have to agree....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:47:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:47:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8CE2395.33F89%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 2:39 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> They already have something today that will zoom under your
> car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
> even restart).
> 
> There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
> a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
> will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
> Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
> go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).
> 
> It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
> have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
> left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.
> 
> Shades of Team Fortress Classic.

Isn't that why Military gear uses GaAs semiconductors?  IIRC, these are more
resistant to EMP (and more expensive too).  One would hope that all military
gear would be proof against this.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:48:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:48:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701001.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE23CA.33F8A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 2:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In fact,
> gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing the thing will
> short out all of its electronics, not to mention other nearby electronics.

What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:52:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:52:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
Message-ID: <200204012252.DDN03437@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>If it's a hash table that slows things down instead of 
>speeding them up, then do away with 
>it.  Saves trouble for everyone all around.
>

The problem I have with making corrections/changes/etc to the 
combat system of CT/Book 4 is that it is *very* easy to walk 
off the Cliffs of Complexity.

I am trying to avoid using tables, except a few during 
character generation to come up with your initiative and your 
actions.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:54:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:54:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701001.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020401225400.55216.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

Hmm, I wonder if battle dress uses fiber optics? 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:55:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:55:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012255.DDN03784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?
>
A very, very distinct EM signal.  I'm sure that a simple RF 
detector would be very cheap.

Imagine that on Regina, there are RF DF units on most tall 
buildings.  

Now, anyone cuts loose with a gauss or railgun (and if we 
listen for special capacitor discharges, any laser) and we 
know within a small area where and what type weapon was fired.

The law level is already a bit high there.  I could see it 
happenning.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:54:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:54:58 -0600
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401170844.027d1130@pop.wizard.net> <003101c1d9cf$1c812d50$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CA8E542.8E4259DC@premier.net>


MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> I like the T4 system of target number defined by skill and stat; difficulty
> (number of dice) by the referee. It works, it's simple. I can remember it.
> And since everything is Formidable in my games, you know you have to roll
> 3D... (!) It's not the same as the MT task system, but it does the same job
> and (for me) it's intuitive.

The way my referee handles many tasks, you start at Average; if you
succeed, you work your way up the chart until you fail.  The highest
level at which you succeeded determines the degree of success.  Forex, a
Tactics roll made at Average would enable a leader to form a workable
plan to carry out a given mission.  The same Tactics roll successfully
made at Average, Difficult and Formidable levels would allow that same
leader to create a plan that took the enemy by complete surprise and
caused the foe to surrender after only token resistance.
> 
> Complex is not better, not-no-never!

All depends on where the complexity is and how much it adds to the
gaming experience.  This is, of course, a situation in which _everone's_
mileage is likely to vary....

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 22:56:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:56:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE23CA.33F8A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017701795.5627.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 4/1/02 2:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> > 
> > Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In
> > fact, gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing
> > the thing will short out all of its electronics, not to mention other
> > nearby electronics. 
> 
> What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?

Presumably, one strong, sharp pulse lasting roughly the length of time it takes
for a bullet to go the length of the barrel.  Not immediately inclined to
figure out the total emitted energy, but I rather doubt that it's small.

Also, gauss weapon != railgun.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:06:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701795.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE27DC.33FBE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 2:56 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> 
> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.
> 

Yes.  According to Book 4, a gauss rifle seems more like a coil gun.  But is
there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  Railguns seem much
simpler for such an application.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:06:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:06:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012255.DDN03784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017702412.3010.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> Now, anyone cuts loose with a gauss or railgun (and if we 
> listen for special capacitor discharges, any laser) and we 
> know within a small area where and what type weapon was fired.

Fusion and plasma weapons will be plenty visible too.  You'll need to
triangulate from multiple sensors, of course, since it's long-wave and won't
give good directional information.

All the more reason to use a good old-fashioned chemical weapon (of course,
bullet noise detectors exist too).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:12:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012312.DDN05750@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>But is there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  
>Railguns seem much simpler for such an application.
>--

I've seen photos of a .45 caliber fully automatic coilgun 
from the WW II era (never more than an experiment).  The gun 
could operate off of vehicle power, and fired at pistol 
velocities and around 600 rounds per minute.

I saw this in the back of Popular Science not too far back 
(well, not all the way back to my childhood).

Would that be considered a "firearm" or even a "machinegun"?  
It looks like something that could be run off the same outlet 
as your washer/dryer.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:15:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:15:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE27DC.33FBE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017702953.7419.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> 
> Yes.  According to Book 4, a gauss rifle seems more like a coil gun.  But
> is there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  Railguns seem much
> simpler for such an application.

Shush.  We're talking canon, not reality.  As far as I can tell fusion and
plasma weapons are stupid ideas too, but canonical ;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:16:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:16:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017702412.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE2A4A.33FED%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 3:06 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> Fusion and plasma weapons will be plenty visible too.  You'll need to
> triangulate from multiple sensors, of course, since it's long-wave and won't
> give good directional information.

Won't you be able to get adequate info from start of pulse and two sensors?
why should wavelength matter, except in regard to the detection antenna.
RDF relies on signal strength.
> 
> All the more reason to use a good old-fashioned chemical weapon (of course,
> bullet noise detectors exist too).

Noise detectors can be fooled by sound suppressors and reflected noise.
Most bullet noise is from the ballistic crack anyway.  There is millimeter
wave radar in use that does a fine job detecting bullets and calculating
back trajectories,  Of course this does get tricky when there's a few
thousand projectiles going hither and yon.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:17:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:17:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Coilgun, or Everyone Go Out And Build A Gauss Rifle
Message-ID: <200204012317.DDO00214@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.oz.net/~coilgun/home.htm

Stone knives and bearskins.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:25:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:25:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIEFADIAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

Really?  Why dont the cops use them for those highway chases then?
Something that kills the engine would be real handy there...

>>They already have something today that will zoom under your
>>car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
>>even restart).


Justin

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:40 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] handy device


They already have something today that will zoom under your
car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
even restart).

There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.

Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



_________________________________________________________

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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:26:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:26:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE2A4A.33FED%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017703573.6212.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 4/1/02 3:06 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> > Fusion and plasma weapons will be plenty visible too.  You'll need to
> > triangulate from multiple sensors, of course, since it's long-wave and
> > won't give good directional information.
> 
> Won't you be able to get adequate info from start of pulse and two sensors?

You'll need at least three to be certain.  In any case, using two sensors is
triangulation.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:31:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:31:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401181557.00a8b2e0@pop.wizard.net>

JT Kwon wrote:
>And the Army sums all of that up in "always consider METT-T
>when making decisions".
Yes, exactly.  Just rephrasing Sun Tzu, really.

>The scale I'm thinking about is the typical Traveller party.
>They don't have enough bodies to do it right, on the
>average.  So they'll be throwing grenades.  But the soldiers
>who are fighting against a party might just rush in like this.
Aha.  I wasn't really thinking in that context.  Agreed, that they very 
well might.  My response to the starship-theft scenario was to decide that 
any decent-sized starport (in the Imperium) is going to have its own SWAT 
team.  So it might be the SWAT team who is assaulting.

>I'm not sure that you could move that quickly under zero-g
>conditions.
An excellent point.  You could launch yourself along a vector by pushing 
off a wall, etc. but you might have a tough time getting three or four 
people to burst into a room while staying close enough to touch each other, 
then split off into different directions as soon as each one just barely 
got inside the door frame.

Should make Zero-G Combat a desirable skill.  A skilled person would 
probably be able to bounce off the door frame as they enter and move 
practically parallel to the interior wall.  A little like getting skilled 
on a trampoline.

>I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run
>on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship
>from stem to stern.  Arguably, orders are going to tell a
>military unit to use the least level of violence necessary to
>take your ship, but if you successfully resisted one boarding
>attempt, and they wanted the ship, they could just give you
>all the "treatment" and board after everyone dies of
>radiation.

Good idea, but only when you don't care about trashing the rather expensive 
ship.  Hmm, if you have particle accelerators with relatively low power 
settings, then maybe you have meson guns and the luxury of being able to 
target them very finely.  Use neural activity sensors for targeting.  How's 
_that_ for a science fiction scene?  Arthur C. Clarke himself, sitting in 
the interior, wouldn't be able to distinguish it from magic as hostage 
takers in the cabin with him suddenly have large chunks of their bodies 
just disappear, with a release of some heat.

If it's a SWAT type situation, I think most SWATs would have robots 
somewhat smaller than humans, and would use breaching charges to crack open 
hatches or portholes and then insert the bots.  The bots wouldn't so much 
be fighting bots as exploratory scout bots.  Also explosive bots and 
gas-releasing bots.  Let's see, using neural activity sensors from outside 
the hull, you should be able to breach almost directly into the hull where 
the targets are.  They might also try to breach the hull where they can cut 
off power to the internal grav grid, or try to seize control of the 
internal grav grid.  Similarly, breaching the hull to open the interior to 
raw vacuum might be useful if the targets don't all have proper suits.  In 
general, you'd like to avoid breaching the hull, because that damage is 
more difficult to repair and make the ship spaceworthy again.  Breaching 
hatches and portholes is better.  IMTU.  YMMV.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:29:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:29:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204012329.DDP00854@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Justin Bunnell" says
>
>Really?  Why dont the cops use them for those highway chases 
>then? Something that kills the engine would be real handy 
>there...
>

that's who it's marketed to.  It's a little flat rocket 
powered car that's about 1 foot x 2 foot.  It drops from 
under the chase car, zooms forward, and is guided under the 
target car.

I think that the EMP part works fine.  It's probably not very 
good on even slightly bad pavement, and you have to get it 
under the target vehicle.

I hear they have the same sort of thing for roadblocks, 
except that the target vehicle drives over the EMP device.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:39:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:39:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017700663.113.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204012218.DDM00317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401183213.00a8a050@pop.wizard.net>

Anthony Jackson quoted and wrote:
>John T. Kwon writes:
>
> > I was wondering if a particle accelerator turret could be run
> > on low power, continuous, and used to irradiate a small ship
> > from stem to stern.
>
>Not without some means of penetrating the Unobtainium shielding used to make
>gas giant refueling survivable.

I had a similar thought about the unobtainium.  I think what John had in 
mind was toasting up the unobtainium just enough to cause it to throw all 
kinds of nasty radiation from the unobtainium hull itself.  Not crack the 
ship open, just induce severe radiation sickness in its inhabitants.

Depending on the properties of the unobtainium (crystaliron, bonded 
superdense, whatever) the ship may or may not become safe for human 
habitation in the next decade or more.  And of course, maybe the TL 15 
wizards can shoot another ray gun at the hull to make it stop being 
radioactive again.  Wouldn't that be handy?  Hmm, also handy for 
battlefield cleanup in all too many situations.  I could never figure out 
why the Traveller universe isn't _much_ more littered with radioactive 
wastelands than canon indicates.  Now if someone can just come up with an 
acceptable hand wave for the ray gun.  (Does anyone else remember the 
ionization denebulizer guns for kids?)

Neither materials science nor particle physics are my fields (obviously), 
but I think the gist of what I'm saying works anyway.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:37:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] F15D Scorpion Recon Fighter TL 11
References: <3CA80B0E.6302.4EB743@localhost>
Message-ID: <005701c1d9d6$22597000$a5d0f6d1@customer>

I can't read whatever format your designs are in.  Do you have a HMTL or
Text version.

John Scarlett

----- Original Message -----
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 8:23 AM
Subject: [TML] F15D Scorpion Recon Fighter TL 11


> A Recon fighter design for the Consort and Kiev, Thanks for the
Inspiration Anthony
>
>
>


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> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
>
>    ---- File information -----------
>      File:  F15C Scorpion 15T Fighter TL11.gtv
>      Date:  1 Apr 2002, 7:16
>      Size:  6244 bytes.
>      Type:  Unknown
>


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> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
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>      Date:  1 Apr 2002, 7:21
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:43:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:43:22 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
>And no frags!

Looking down pitifully at very large frag grenade with it's pin pulled and 
spoon just about to be released...

"Awwwww.  But Sa-arge?" comes the whine.

Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable sleeves and even 
the explosive charge can pull apart into three separate and working 
charges.  You can make your grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need it 
to be, pretty much.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:42:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:42:52 +0100
Subject: [TML] Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
References: <200204012252.DDN03437@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003801c1d9d7$03a278e0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> 
> The problem I have with making corrections/changes/etc to the 
> combat system of CT/Book 4 is that it is *very* easy to walk 
> off the Cliffs of Complexity.
> 
> I am trying to avoid using tables, except a few during 
> character generation to come up with your initiative and your 
> actions.
>

Wise. Very Wise.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:45:02 +0100
Subject: [TML] room clearing
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <003f01c1d9d7$50c1d1c0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable sleeves and even
> the explosive charge can pull apart into three separate and working
> charges.  You can make your grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need
it
> to be, pretty much.
>
That sounds like something that troopers would break.
As in "if you leave three soldiers in the desert with an anvil, and come
back later, the anvil will be broken. And they won't know how it happened."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:47:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:47:19 -0800
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DB@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

You might want to try to find a copy of Yachts International Magazine.  Fodder for those dreams ;)

Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: laning [mailto:laning@wizard.net]
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 1:44 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)


Living on an airplane would not be fun.  All that loud buzzing.  And the 
bad air.  Yuck.

My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a 
twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.

I like to throw in people living out the Traveller version of this dream 
wandering from planet to planet, living on their converted merchant.  The 
more oft-encountered version of people living an imitation of this dream is 
the crew of a merchant that is family, or like a family together.  They 
still need to hustle for the credits to pay off the bank, keep the ship 
fuelled and maintained, etc.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:50:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:50:33 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <001f01c1d9c8$14f2af20$629193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com>
 <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net>

I wrote:
> > My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a
> > twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.
> >
MJD responded:
>I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air force.

I want the yacht because it makes it a lot easier to travel to and visit 
all the places I want to see.  I've seen Greece for all of ten days, and 
that certainly isn't enough.  Just for starters.  Most of the world's 
population lives within twenty miles of navigable water I have read more 
than once, so it should make life convenient.

And yes, San Diego would be high on my list of places to spend some anchor 
time.  My friend went on an Alaskan coastline cruise in her yacht last year 
and loved it; it's the other direction but you may want to think about 
it.  Don't forget to watch John Sayles' movie 'Limbo' before you go.  :->

ObTrav:  Just where in the Spinward Marches would be the popular 
destinations for pleasure travellers with the means?  Would there be 
anything seasonal to the travel patterns?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:52:04 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185058.00a65e80@pop.wizard.net>

JT Kwon wrote:
>Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
>
>You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles,
>but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up
>with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right
>positions in government for the die hards, it might work.

The worst part is it's probably the New Zealanders on the list who are 
laughing the hardest at that.  :->

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:50:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:50:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <200204012350.DDP03311@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable 
>sleeves and even the explosive charge can pull apart into 
>three separate and working charges.  You can make your 
>grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need it 
>to be, pretty much.
>
I've seen a modern German grenade that has a removable sleeve 
for frag/no frag.  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:51:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:51:46 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> > >
> MJD responded:
> >I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air
force.
>
> I want the yacht because it makes it a lot easier to travel to and visit
> all the places I want to see.  I've seen Greece for all of ten days, and
> that certainly isn't enough.  Just for starters.  Most of the world's
> population lives within twenty miles of navigable water I have read more
> than once, so it should make life convenient.
>

Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are
very handy for burglars...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:56:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:56:53 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>

MJD wrote:
>OBTRAV: sell that Free Trader, buy a small land mass, and be your own
>fascist dictator.

Which is sort of the the piracy issue brought up earlier.  If you can skip 
on your ship's mortage, or steal a ship, or pirate a ship just _one_ time 
in your life and sell the ship, then a lot of people would.  And in fact 
buy their own island somewhere.  Or live on the Spruce Goose or whatever 
their dream is.

Knowing most player characters as we do, it's no wonder so few referees 
like to let their PCs get possession of a ship, any ship.  Me?  I'd like to 
give players ships, I really would.  But what they'll do with the ill 
gotten booty from selling it terrifies me.

This has driven me to tinker with starship costs quite a lot, trying to 
reduce their value by orders of magnitude.  I still haven't found a 
solution that seems properly balanced.

--Laning
(Traveller geek code MIA)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:54:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:54:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
making MY windows rattle.

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:40 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] handy device


They already have something today that will zoom under your 
car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
even restart).

There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then 
have something like this land at your feet.  You might be 
left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.

Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:55:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 17:55:23 -0600
Subject: Soldiers Breaking Things (was: Re: [TML] room clearing)
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net> <003f01c1d9d7$50c1d1c0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CA8F36B.AD819CDD@premier.net>


MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
> > Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable sleeves and even
> > the explosive charge can pull apart into three separate and working
> > charges.  You can make your grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need
> it
> > to be, pretty much.
> >
> That sounds like something that troopers would break.
> As in "if you leave three soldiers in the desert with an anvil, and come
> back later, the anvil will be broken. And they won't know how it happened."

Reminds me of a comic strip in _The Paraglide_ (the Ft. Bragg post
newspaper) a number of years ago.  This particular edition of "G.I.
Bill" was on "The Thought Processes of a Private," which were broken
down into the following steps (this is from memory, but it should be
mostly accurate):

1.  Private hears question from sergeant ("How could you lose a 2 1/2
ton truck?!?")
2.  Ears send question to brain.
3.  Brain, not wanting to deal with question, sends question to stomach.
4.  Stomach mishears question as "What was that stuff they served for
lunch today in the chow hall?"
5.  Stomach sends answer to question to mouth.
6.  Mouth responds, "I don't know, Sergeant!"

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:58:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:58:20 EST
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
Message-ID: <193.4c190af.29da4e1c@aol.com>

--part1_193.4c190af.29da4e1c_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 02/04/02 00:53:39 GMT Daylight Time, 
martinjd@globalnet.co.uk writes:


> Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are
> very handy for burglars...
> 

I'm sure they are - think of the damage the little rascal could do when he 
got them home.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_193.4c190af.29da4e1c_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 00:53:39 GMT Daylight Time, martinjd@globalnet.co.uk writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are<BR>
very handy for burglars...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I'm sure they are - think of the damage the little rascal could do when he got them home.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_193.4c190af.29da4e1c_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  1 23:59:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:59:06 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017702953.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE344A.3401B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 3:15 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

>> Yes.  According to Book 4, a gauss rifle seems more like a coil gun.  But
>> is there really much promise for coilguns as weapons?  Railguns seem much
>> simpler for such an application.
> 
> Shush.  We're talking canon, not reality.  As far as I can tell fusion and
> plasma weapons are stupid ideas too, but canonical ;)

I like railguns.  I like the idea of a gauss weapon with a muzzle blast and
noise.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:02:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:02:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE344A.3401B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017705741.4086.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> > Shush.  We're talking canon, not reality.  As far as I can tell fusion
> > and plasma weapons are stupid ideas too, but canonical ;)
> 
> I like railguns.  I like the idea of a gauss weapon with a muzzle blast and
> noise.

Why would a railgun produce either?  Aside from the sabot being ejected, and
the crack of the bullet, that is, and both would apply to coilguns too.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:07:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:07:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012350.DDP03311@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8CE3646.34024%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 3:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> laning says
>> 
>> Of course, higher tech grenades come with interchangeable
>> sleeves and even the explosive charge can pull apart into
>> three separate and working charges.  You can make your
>> grenade be whatever kind of grenade you need it
>> to be, pretty much.
>> 
> I've seen a modern German grenade that has a removable sleeve
> for frag/no frag.

So called offensive/defensive or polyvalent grenades. There are a whole slew
of them.

I suspect you're thinking of the DM 51.  There's a removable plastic body
element containing steel shot that fits around an HE core and fuse.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:13:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:13:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204011749.DDD03964@vmms1.verisignmail.com> from "John T. Kwon" at Apr 01, 2002 12:49:19 PM
Message-ID: <200204020013.g320DTU02643@localhost.uia.net>

> I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
> effects when you modify Planck's constant.

Not talking about modifying Planck's constant. Only talking about
modifying inertia. Tim introduced the idea of modifying Planck's
constant as a device to keep strangeness from happening when
inertia is modified, but I'm not 100% sure that inertial suppression
would necessarily result in strangeness in the first place. Trying
to get some thoughts on the matter.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:22:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:22:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017705741.4086.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8CE39B4.34031%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 4:02 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
>> I like railguns.  I like the idea of a gauss weapon with a muzzle blast and
>> noise.
> 
> Why would a railgun produce either?  Aside from the sabot being ejected, and
> the crack of the bullet, that is, and both would apply to coilguns too.

Well, unless you are in vacuum, you get incandescent gas from the arc and
plasma.  See the photos of some real railguns at
http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons/tech/rail.html

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 00:32:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:32:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE39B4.34031%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017707545.2749.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:

> Well, unless you are in vacuum, you get incandescent gas from the arc and
> plasma.  See the photos of some real railguns at
> http://www.travellercentral.com/weapons/tech/rail.html

Hm...ideally you'd avoid arcing in the first place, since it's not at all
necessary for accelerating the round.  I guess some arcing is unavoidable,
though.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:05:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 20:05:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] I need to run a real life battle
In-Reply-To: <20020329.215011.-23887.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHEEPFCFAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

Do I get to use my shotgun?

-SRS-

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:owner-tml@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
> generalturokan@juno.com
> Sent: Saturday, 30 March, 2002 00:50
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] I need to run a real life battle
> 
> 
> Thank you TML
> 
> On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 17:48:18 -0800 generalturokan@juno.com writes:
> > 
> > Are there any volunteers?
> 
> I wish to thank all those who've responded off-line to my request.
> 
> Thanks a lot.
> 
> I wont need anyone else to volunteer.
> 
> 
> Gen. Turokan
> 
> 
> -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..       ..   ...       --   -.-- 
>     ...   .-   ...-   ..   ---   .-.   --..--      
>  ..       .-..   ---   ...-  .       .---   .   ...   ..-   ...      
> -.-.   ....   .-.   ..   ...   -       .--  ..   -   ....       
> .-   .-..   .-..       --   -.--       ....   .   .-  .-.   -   .-.-.-
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:10:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:10:19 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>

One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at
doorlocks etc...

How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior is
exposed to Vacuum?

Not many...

Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by
being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a recording
being played over radio)

I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices
relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad ID
number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the
card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you
have access to your account.

After all, you want security to stop casual access to secure areas, but not
so secure that it inhibits routine or emergency access.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:17:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:17:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>

Matthew Bond writes:
> One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's
> at doorlocks etc...
> 
> How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior
> is exposed to Vacuum?

How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use? 
There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
'security while everyone is away'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:22:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:22:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Accents and Bonuses
Message-ID: <gu1iau87ahojttup95thnjogcis4ps6ijl@4ax.com>

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 08:11:19 -0800 (PST), Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:

>ObTrav: A ship crewed by Orthodox Jews sets up so they will spend Passover 
>in jump.  They misjump, and come out of jump way early, on a course to hit 
>something large and fatal.  Your characters are passengers on said 
>ship..  Much fun happens.

Actually, _any_ of the rules can be broken if the alternative is one's own
death.  Including the Sabbath, and eating treyf.



--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:23:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:23:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Pinging the list
Message-ID: <tv1iauc8kg0u7pr0a2985fcfqb69fevomj@4ax.com>

Checking some odd behavior of my mail client and/or ISP.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:40:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:40:01 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <00c801c1d9e7$4e129d00$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?


> Matthew Bond writes:
> > One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint
ID's
> > at doorlocks etc...
> >
> > How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> > Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the
interior
> > is exposed to Vacuum?
>
> How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use?
> There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
> 'security while everyone is away'.

On any passenger carrying vessel, I would expect several areas to be Locked
routinely... Bridge, Cargo, Engineering, etc.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:45:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:45:41 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <00d401c1d9e8$18f2f420$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?


> Matthew Bond writes:
> > One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint
ID's
> > at doorlocks etc...
> >
> > How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> > Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the
interior
> > is exposed to Vacuum?
>
> How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use?
> There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
> 'security while everyone is away'.

And what happens if battle damage (or a micrometeoroid impact) has cause the
hull to become depressurised, while simultaneously causing a computer glitch
to activate the Locks used while in Dock...

If there is any chance that the lockable area needs to be accessed in vacuum
conditions, then I for one want a locking mechanism that doesn't require me
to expose any part of my body to vacuum.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:50:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:50:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1d9e8$18f2f420$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>

Matthew Bond writes:

> And what happens if battle damage (or a micrometeoroid impact) has cause
> the hull to become depressurised, while simultaneously causing a computer
> glitch to activate the Locks used while in Dock...

Well, odds are the lock won't work at all then.  Plus, who says you're going to
put a thumbprint lock on the _inside_ of the lock?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:03:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:03:55 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <20020401200104.BCEA627A48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c1d9e9$a2218e40$f6b18b90@computer>

> From: laning
> Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no
> scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the
> fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world
> in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL 13
> COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much less
> likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.

One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:56:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:56:24 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer>

> From: "MJ Dougherty"
> Cool! New Zealand is nice. And it's close to Doug's Penguin Emporium too.

Sadly, somebody already owns New Zealand.  It's just not considered polite
to talk about it.  The same applies to Papua New Guinea, East Timor, and a
bunch of other countries.

> OBTRAV: sell that Free Trader, buy a small land mass, and be your own
> fascist dictator.

That's my favourite kind of game these days.  I've got to the point where
starships barely appear any more.

"Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got a
harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a fusion
reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own army.
What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania thinks he
has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us independent
enclaves to make sure he doesn't."

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 01:57:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:57:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <003d01c1d9e9$a2218e40$f6b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017712657.2060.ajackson@ping>

Alan Bradley writes:
> > From: laning
> > Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no
> > scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the
> > fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world
> > in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL
> > 13 COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much
> > less likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.
> 
> One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?

Um...most likely something he's not supposed to be doing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 02:01:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:01:13 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017712657.2060.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CA910E9.25637C99@premier.net>


Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Alan Bradley writes:

<<snip>>
> >
> > One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?
> 
> Um...most likely something he's not supposed to be doing?

Pining for the fjords?  (Or, for GT players, pining for the fnords.)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 02:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 03:08:08 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?


> Matthew Bond writes:
>
> > And what happens if battle damage (or a micrometeoroid impact) has cause
> > the hull to become depressurised, while simultaneously causing a
computer
> > glitch to activate the Locks used while in Dock...
>
> Well, odds are the lock won't work at all then.  Plus, who says you're
going to
> put a thumbprint lock on the _inside_ of the lock?

Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:07:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:07:17 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com> <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane>

Alan tells us:
> "Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got a
> harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
> schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a fusion
> reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own army.
> What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania thinks he
> has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us independent
> enclaves to make sure he doesn't."

Yeah, I know what you mean.  That seems to be the way my Traveller game is
gravitating.

I suppose it's the eternal hazard of lavishing too much detail on the worlds
your PCs visit:  They start getting these crazy notions of settling down and
setting up shop!  While I enjoy exploring the "going native" part of the
game, it's also unbelievably frustrating at times.

I really don't want to allow this kind of behaviour.  Maybe it's because I'm
afraid of commitment. Uhm.. To a single world, that is.  Or simply that I
just can't let go of the "traveling" aspect of Traveller.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Proponent of Planetary Polygamy
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 02:25:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:55:47 +0930 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
In-Reply-To: <200204011651.DDB04154@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204021153350.24002-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi John:

On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> I like to have robots, but there's a certain tedium to Book
> 8.  So far, I've resorted to just "saying" that a robot is a
> certain way.  I don't really like the Star Wars robots, but
> there is a certain edge to the robots as presented in AI
> (where they are "nearly" like us, but still imperfect).
>
> How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?

 Been way to long since I looked at Book 8. As for bots in my game world.
U used some ideas from a Challange article on Shadowrun and images  for my
mind from the High Colonies game  Mainly now besides sercant bots on
tracks or wheels. The others encountered are "pig iron" Secutrity type
that are armed.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:16:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:16:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204020316.DDW00039@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bulkhead Doors

Bulkhead doors can be either a retracting door or an iris 
valve.  Which one is more common depends on YTU.  In canon, 
they are iris valves.

All bulkhead doors have a basic mechanical mechanism, which 
can be operated in a powered or non-powered mode.

All bulkhead doors have an mechanical lock which has a 
powered assist.

All bulkhead doors have a pressure indicator, both a powered 
indicator and a manual pin.  If there is vacuum on the other 
side, and air on your side, the pin slot shows a depression.  
If you are in vacuum and there is pressure on the other side, 
the pin sticks out.  If the pressure is equal, the pin is 
level with the surface.  Some ships, military and scoutships 
in particular, will also have fire and radiation sensors at 
every bulkhead door.

In an emergency, the door can be unlocked manually and 
operated manually. The manual lock requires a key, which all 
ship's personnel carry.  It is rather large, and easy to 
handle with gloved hands.  Usually, all keys are the same, 
except for keys leading to the bridge and engineering, which 
are both different by custom.

On military ships, all keys are kept in cases near each 
door.  For special secure areas, the keys are under Marine 
guard.

If the door still has power, and the key is used to operate 
the door, an alarm will sound in that section and on the 
bridge.

For more convenience, bulkhead doors are usually used in 
powered mode.  There is a sensor pad next to the door, which 
can detect a keycard within 10cm.  If the keycard is valid, 
the buttons which operate the door are enabled: there are two 
buttons which change color by status:  lock/unlock and 
open/close.  There is a convenience pocket in vacc suit 
sleeves (right and left) into which a crewman usually has a 
keycard.  The pocket is closed with velcro.

Airlocks

Airlocks have two bulkhead doors: inner and outer.  The 
airlock is equipped with pressure sensors inside and outside 
the airlock (including inside the ship).  There are 
additional controls in the airlock which also respond to the 
keys which are used to control the pressure in the airlock 
itself.  Scout ships usually have a more exotic external 
atmosphere sensor, which can also be monitored from the 
bridge. At least one door on passenger ships has a weapons 
detector and explosives/powercell sniffer.

Even if the ship is on the ground, and there is breathable 
air, if you open the inner door, the airlock chamber has 
warning lights that come on.  If there is vacuum outside and 
atmosphere inside, a warning will sound in that section and 
on the bridge.  Once you close the inner door, you can open 
the outer door.  In order to open both doors at once, it 
requires that you manually operate the doors -- this cannot 
be done using the electronic controls.

Now, as for securing the ship against theft while on the 
ground:

The ship's computer operates in a different mode when landed 
or docked, as opposed to under way.  Once the ship's computer 
is not in "under way" mode, a specific crewman's sensor key 
and password is required to change the mode.  Logon to ship's 
computers is a combination of the sensor key and a password.

If you can't log on and don't have permission to change the 
mode, you can't operate the engines, sensors, weapons, etc.

Additionally, the ship, while not "under way", will sound an 
alarm if one of the airlock or cargo bay doors is opened 
manually or forced.  This alarm can be sent to a 
predesignated communicator (the captain's, for instance).  
This alarm can be set through the ship's computer for any 
door.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:49:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:49:00 -0500
Subject: [TML] does that make me an apostate?
In-Reply-To: <200204011656.DDB04760@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401224644.00cdd1a8@192.168.0.1>

At 11:56 AM 4/1/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>As I've gotten older, I've just gotten to doing some
>equipment by "it's about this long, about this heavy, etc.."
>I've done the same thing with NPCs.
>Sometimes FFS drives me nuts.
>I seem to be able to write about some things better if I just
>say things are "just so".
>After all, can anyone out there take any of the robot design
>sequences and come up with Gigolo Joe?

Once the Tech level get's high enough, it would be easier to make a 'bio-bot'
Mostly human tissue grown in a vat and a programmed brain.  GURPs Robots 
would be my choice for design.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:52:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <3CA8C9D6.9000605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200203312207.DBP01462@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401224917.01b08448@192.168.0.1>

At 01:57 PM 4/1/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>John T. Kwon wrote:
>>The only problem I have with the new room clearing technique is that if 
>>people are expecting you, then all they need is a long burst fire (belt 
>>fed) to keep you out of the room.
>>The new technique involves a team of 4 flowing into the room and moving 
>>left or right as they flow in and occupy corners of the room by flowing 
>>along the walls.
>>Might make an interesting scenario to game out using ACQ.
>>If the people flowing into the room have more actions per combat round 
>>than the people occupying the room, it might work.
>>The use of grenades is now an exception in room clearing.  I do remember 
>>throwing a simulator into a closet in MOUT training, and being declared a 
>>casualty.  Maybe they have something there.
>I wonder how this compares, to, say, standard SWAT protocol for the same. 
>They make extensive use of flashbangs (Presumably the 'stun grenade' 
>mentioned in the link.

Flash bangs are also quite dangerous in confined spaces.  The big 
difference between that and fragmentation grenade is lack of fragmentation 
in the Flashbang.  You still have about the same amount of explosive material.

>Presumably they are less likely to encounter return fire than soldiers 
>clearing a room in a battle, but there's also the rather tricky (and now, 
>all too common) mingling of non-combatants and combatants in today's battles.
>Mis-calculate where enemy fire is coming from in a large building, and you 
>could burst into the room next door, filled with refugees instead of bad guys.
>All I can say is I DON'T want to be the poor sucker taking that #1 position.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!
Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:51:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:51:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
References: <200204011651.DDB04154@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA92ABA.54139D45@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?

I use book 8 and 101 Robots. My players currently use a batch of
obsolete TL 12 (MT) floor models including a traderbot, engineeringbot,
valetbot, medibot, constructionbot and agrobot. They take a perverse
delight in using the agrobot to take care of livestock for the vargar
steward to eat. As the TL goes up they become more "sophantlike" until
TL16 they begin to have personalities.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I eat babies. I drink pee. I must be French!, French!, French!
                  -Nathan Lane & Chris Katein



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:56:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:56:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE2395.33F89%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204012239.DDN02151@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401225457.01da10b0@192.168.0.1>

At 02:47 PM 4/1/2002 -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 4/1/02 2:39 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> > They already have something today that will zoom under your
> > car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
> > even restart).
> > There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
> > a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
> > will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
> > Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
> > go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).
> > It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
> > have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
> > left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.
> > Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
>Isn't that why Military gear uses GaAs semiconductors?  IIRC, these are more
>resistant to EMP (and more expensive too).  One would hope that all military
>gear would be proof against this.

Extensive shielding and redundancy are parts of my handwaves on why 
Traveller computers are so darn big.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 03:58:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 21:58:01 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane>
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com> <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer> <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <ojaiaukds95jfm1e8hbvvfhdk7e51bpoec@4ax.com>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:07:17 +1000, "Shane Slamet"
<s.slamet@bom.gov.au> wrote:

>Alan tells us:
>> "Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got =
a
>> harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
>> schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a =
fusion
>> reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own =
army.
>> What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania =
thinks he
>> has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us =
independent
>> enclaves to make sure he doesn't."
>
>Yeah, I know what you mean.  That seems to be the way my Traveller game =
is
>gravitating.
>
>I suppose it's the eternal hazard of lavishing too much detail on the =
worlds
>your PCs visit:  They start getting these crazy notions of settling down=
 and
>setting up shop!  While I enjoy exploring the "going native" part of the
>game, it's also unbelievably frustrating at times.
>
>I really don't want to allow this kind of behaviour.  Maybe it's because=
 I'm
>afraid of commitment. Uhm.. To a single world, that is.  Or simply that =
I
>just can't let go of the "traveling" aspect of Traveller.

This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
(or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.

=46rom a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become part
of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:15:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:15:14 -0600
Subject: [TML] boarding bots and piracy assumptions
References: <20020402080532.C9780@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1017699220.5758.ajackson@ping> <20020402083045.E9780@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CA93052.B595C25F@pobox.com>

Timothy Little wrote:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
> > Timothy Little writes:

>>As far as I can see, there are three main contenders for how the jump
exit point moves:...

> > > 3) Stationary wrt to the body with greatest gravitational field at the
> > > planned emergence point.  That's the planet, in this case.
> > This one has several things to recommend it, in particular the fact
> > that it cripples some of the simplest methods of relativistic
> > bombardment.
> Actually no, we already know that the *ship* retains its original
> velocity through jump.  ...
> In fact, option 3 makes relativistic bombardment *much* easier, since
> you know the near-c object will always emerge near the planned
> position relative to the planet.

I vote for option 3, although it does contribute to the near-C rock dilemma.
I have used it IMTU with a slight twist...the 'direction' of the ship's vector
on arrival is also relative to the body with the greatest gravitational field,
i.e. the planet.  So if you accelerate out from the planet and jump, you
arrive still heading away from the planet.

Under this model. it makes sense for merchants (and others) to jump with zero
velocity (relative to the planet).  It also means that anything which comes
out of jump with an inward vector (comes in 'hot') had to work hard to do
that, by travelling past the jump point, and then turning around and
accelerating back inward before jump.  Since most of the reasons for wanting
to do this are military in nature, system defenses are very hostile to ships
which come in 'hot'.

I deal with near-C rocks in another way, which I will post in a separate
thread so that all present can shoot holes in it ;-).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:11:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:11:40 -0600
Subject: [TML] Another Power Source For FF&S2?
Message-ID: <3CA92F7C.B45F42C3@premier.net>

Herewith my First of April contribution to the TML.  Enjoy!

While getting caught up on the Temple ov thee Lemur Web site, I noticed
that they had an article about a potato-powered Web server.  The FAQ, in
response to the question "How much energy can you get out of a potato?",
answered thusly:

"Again, this varies considerably. Using the zinc/copper electrodes that
we have at present, we get a voltage of about 0.8V (+-0.1V) and a
maximum sustainable currrent of about 15mA. We can draw this current for
about 15 hours before we notice an appreciable drop, so a back of an
envelope calculation of total useful energy would be in the region of
650J."

http://totl.net/FAQ/features/spud/

Should we add chemoelectric potatoes as a power plant option in FF&S2?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:02:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:02:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017702412.3010.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204012255.DDN03784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401195939.009fdcd0@mindspring.com>

At 03:06 PM 4/1/02 -0800, you wrote:
>All the more reason to use a good old-fashioned chemical weapon (of course,
>bullet noise detectors exist too).

But sound echoes..

Yesterday, being Easter, Colma's cemetaries were filled with Chinese 
families paying their respects to their ancestors.  This involves 
firecrackers.  Lots of firecrakers.

There are 45,000 bodies in Colma, close to half of them Chinese.  The town 
sits in a valley, and is *filled* with marble sound reflectors.

It sounded like a bloody battalion-sized firefight.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:14:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:14:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>

At 12:41 PM 4/1/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Unfortunately, the further I went the more I discovered
>that the two were completely incompatible. CT worldgen
>(including the extended system in Book 6) simply breaks
>the laws of physics. Repeatedly. In ways that are very
>hard to gloss over.

LOL!  Very true, very true...


>My response was to make "realistic" the default setting,
>and include a number of notes demonstrating how to go
>about something more Classic in style if that was to
>your taste. In retrospect that was probably the wrong
>strategy. At the time I wasn't sure what the biggest
>part of the audience would be - long-time Traveller
>players or newcomers. Clearly, I guessed wrong.

Not entirely true.. those not interested in scientific accuracy tend not to 
bother with extended design systems.


>If First In goes to a second edition, I think the world
>design sequence will default to something much more
>like Book 6 worldgen, with "realism notes" allowing the
>referee to flesh things out or substitute more realistic
>steps to taste. (About the only thing that I would "fix"
>in the default sequence would be the formula for world
>surface temperature in Book 6, which is not only wrong,
>but wrong in such a way that it actually makes Book 6
>much harder to use.)

Hey, I like it just fine.  The only thing I would change is move the 
sections on mapping and animal encounters behind the population details.

>I suspect that would make First In considerably easier
>for long-time Traveller fans to use in their established
>Traveller universes - while still allowing folks who
>roll their own to be as realistic as they choose.

For the record, for Trojan Reach I'm making adjustments to the classic 
information.  Mostly, this is changes stellar types, and changing the sizes 
of worlds that are way to small for their listed "uses."  I'm trying to 
keep the feel of the worlds while making them fit the math.

It's a tightrope, and I hope everyone approves.

(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:22:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <002401c1d9c3$ac6b2e40$6e9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401121811.00a8aa10@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401155417.00a78730@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401201741.009f0020@mindspring.com>

At 10:24 PM 4/1/02 +0100, you wrote:
>Guess I'm just on a bit of a hair-trigger about all the people wanting me/us
>to "fix" this or that about the Traveller universe, TNE, or GURPS Trav. Fix
>it enough times and it'll be something completely different to what you
>started with. Like my computer...

"Fixing" world generation doesn't have to be backwards compatible; if you 
want to have Mars-sized worlds with thick atmospheres, it's your hand wave.

In my experience, playing with the rules that the Gods of Nature and 
Physics give us is far more interesting, with odd results like the 
intelligences under the ice that Jens came up with...

For example: these races are all psionic, and have their own "Imperium" 
connected by telepathy and interstellar teleports.  They manipulate us to 
protect their own interests.  Interesting setting, especially when someone 
twigs to the secret.. y'see, *these* are the Ancients!  Al, the Yaskodray 
business is misdirection on their part.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 23:12:36 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <ojaiaukds95jfm1e8hbvvfhdk7e51bpoec@4ax.com>
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com> <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer> <00b801c1d9f3$7f8a3990$9307b286@Shane> <ojaiaukds95jfm1e8hbvvfhdk7e51bpoec@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1dfiauodt52jg11nh29p9a68ulq7t55aer@4ax.com>

On Mon, 01 Apr 2002 21:58:01 -0600, JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
wrote:

>This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
>There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
>(or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
>sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
>example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.
>
>From a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become part
>of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
>destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
>becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.

Damn.  "Villains"

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:15:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David & Kristin Larson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 21:15:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] RE: John Kwon's SOP
In-Reply-To: <20020401233807.357B8279F7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1da05$6c754180$0300000a@c263000a>

John, I'd also be willing to review your SOP. I'm sure it's something I
could use and I'd be more than willing to pass on any thoughts or ideas
(probably give a different branch perspective as well).

David Larson
dlarson@blarg.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:43:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David & Kristin Larson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 21:43:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] RE: Room Clearing
In-Reply-To: <20020401233807.357B8279F7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c1da09$61259ba0$0300000a@c263000a>

Flash-bangs are in relatively common use (at least I've had no problem
getting them from the ASP).

The biggest factor regarding the use of frag grenades I've come up with is
the likelihood of 1) friendlies in the room (hostages, etc) and 2) the
likelihood of a frag/round punching through the wall. Lined up outside the
door, pressed against the wall is a bad place to be if you're about to
perforate said wall with fragments. Assuming the absence of friendlies and
the presence of strong walls, more boom is better. :)

Of course you always have to consider how badly you *want* to clear the room
or building. Sometimes it's just better to *remove* the building than to
preserve it for future use. YSMV (your situation may vary) ;)

Reading one of the earlier posts regarding the mechanics of room-clearing, a
key point was unclear: when entering the room (assuming a common four-sided
room) the four team members enter as fast as they can alternating moving to
the left and right along the two walls. As they move in they can clear what
they see, but each has a well defined sector that they are responsible for
and must clear. Just because you see a target doesn't make it your shot
(only if your sector is already cleared and no teammates are in the way). As
you move into the room your *available* sector of fire, that which you can
fire into, starts very large but then very rapidly shrinks to a tiny
fraction of what you had. That's why you sweep through the room rather than
point yourself directly at you corner.

Assuming your the number one man and your SOP has you entering and moving
left, your sweep as you enter the door will start in the center of the room
and rapidly sweep to the left corner. As you move towards that corner you
sweep back to the right towards the opposite corner until the room is clear.

OnT: This is not something that the ordinary Traveller group should attempt,
especially against trained opponents. Even if the defender is of a poor tech
level, poorly armed, etc he still holds an advantage. The only real asset
you have is shock and speed. This is a skill that must be trained over and
over and rehearsed repeatedly and against a wide variety of room and
situations. Just image a group of engineers and stewards trying something
like this during a 'hostage rescue' scenario, especially once surprise is
lost. The outcome is left to the imagination.

David
dlarson@blarg.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 06:21:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:21:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sHfY-0003IO-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

> John T. Kwon writes:
> > They already have something today that will zoom under your 
> > car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't 
> > even restart).
> > 
> > There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in 
> > a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon 
> > will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).  
> > Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even 
> > go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).

I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that difficult to 
build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate power 
battery.  
 
> Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In
> fact, gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing
> the thing will short out all of its electronics, not to mention other
> nearby electronics.

I've a few comments and questions here:

1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this 
shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be 
overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP? 

2) While military equipment wil be shielded, many worlds would 
likely strongly prefer if civilian weapons were not, since having a 
way to stop everyone's guns from working would be a godsend for 
cops (who would presumably also have shielded weapons).   

3) Even if you don't get the weapons, cutting off someone's comm 
will at least stop them from calling for backup.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 04:28:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:28:21 -0600
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <200204010859.DCL01823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV158oWo7w0nGEbJ8M00012276@hotmail.com>

> I have the feeling that an Imperial ability to commandeer
> your ship is a factor here.

Actually legal forms of "theft" such as comandeering and repossession didn't
enter my mind when I posted, but I can see that these issues are integral to
the question under discussion.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:02:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:02:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <DAV58nLJm2ZBNCogiwH0001b30b@hotmail.com>

As soon as the door begins opening they
> all shoot him.

PCs who went too far?  I'm shocked!<G>

Oddly enough this closely resembles the head-in-the-sand failure to realize
that actions have consequences that so often precedes crime in real life.

> If that same party tried that same stunt again, I'd have the guards at the
> fence shoot them with tranq and they'd wake up in jail.

Ahh, the Prison Campaign...

>there would be automatic
> security programs would have taken over to incapacitate the
> boarders.  Including, lighting, temperature controls, random and extreme
> variations in the artificial gravity grid (from weightless state to
> negative one gee to positive one gee then back to negative one gee, etc.),
> locking down all interior and exterior hatches, and even evacuating air
> from different spaces.  Each individual grav plate is separately
> controlled, and there are preprogrammed routines for turning off all grav
> plates in a corridor except one which is turned to maximum, and sequencing
> which plate is turned to maximum so as to pull someone in the corridor to
> one end or the other of it.  With sufficiently high-powered grav plates,
> someone can be thrown into an airlock, for instance.

A beautiful description of exactly what I meant by "Does the environmental
system become hostile?).  Nice!

>
> Insurance companies and mortgage companies insist upon certain security
> precautions for ships,

Big time!  I can envision insurance inspectors who make the rounds at
starports, conducting unannounced inspections on policyholders.

> If the 'Alien' from the movie boarded my ship, <snip> Subsequent
> events to be determined by the referee.  :->

I liked the movie, but I always thought the crewmembers of the Nostromo had
way too much trouble getting their act together.

>
> If thieves manage to take control of the ship enough to lift off from
> planet, they'll still have to deal with starport and orbital traffic
> control.  This will include knowing what identifying call sign they are
> assigned, filing a flight plan, and getting clearances.  A docked ship
will
> also have its security system linked to the starport, and if the security
> is triggered at any point, the starport security will immediately be
> alerted.  The thief will still have to somehow evade starport, COACC, and
> Imperial facilities, in most systems.  Think satellites, missiles, deep
> meson guns, and SDBs.

Agreed.  Clearly
Step 5. Getting Away
needs to be included.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 05:40:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:40:01 -0600
Subject: [TML] Stealing Starships - More
Message-ID: <DAV43jxq6pgtq33Z4WN00012b23@hotmail.com>

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I think Matt has raised good points about the dubious usefulness of =
biometric systems for applications that may have to accessed in vaccuum.

Voice prints may become an even more fussy issue, at least as far as the =
exterior hatch goes.  Not only suit radios - but also atmospheric =
compostion and pressure - can alter the human voice.

Many have raised the point - correctly, it seems to me - that there will =
be different levels of security in place for different environments or =
circumstances, even on the same ship.

The product of security and convenience is a constant.  In other words, =
the more security you have, the less convenience - and vice versa.  For =
this reason, if for no other, there will be different levels of =
security.

I can think of several different circumstances that would all cry out =
for different levels of security:

Grounded (not at a starport) with at least one trusted crewmember =
aboard.
Grounded and unoccupied.
Berthed (at a spaceport) with at least one trusted crewmember aboard.
Berthed and unoccupied.
Underway with no passengers.
Underway with passengers.=20

And since we've come to this juncture - what exactly does an anti-hijack =
program do?  Does it scan boarding passengers for weapons?  Monitor =
patterns of passenger movement for suspicious activity?  Compare facial =
features against a known database of offenders? =20

Is it completely passive? ("Sorry to interrupt Captain but five =
passengers are approaching the bridge with weapons and shaped charges")

Or do automated systems take an active role in defending the ship in the =
event of a hijack? (ZAP "Correction Captain.  Make that four =
passengers." ZAP "Sorry.  Three.")  Perhaps if the vessel is taken and =
the Captain doesn't enter an override command, the A-H program scrams =
the power plant.  Or maybe the ship is experimental, powerful, or =
otherwise very _interesting_ in which case the A-H program decides to =
scuttle in 30 minutes...

I _do_ love to give PCs a deadline.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com




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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I think Matt has raised good points about the =
dubious=20
usefulness of biometric systems for applications that may have to =
accessed in=20
vaccuum.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Voice prints may become an even more fussy issue, at =
least as=20
far as the exterior hatch goes.&nbsp; Not only suit radios - but also=20
atmospheric compostion and pressure&nbsp;- can alter the human=20
voice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Many have raised the point - correctly, it seems to =
me - that=20
there will be different levels of security in place for different =
environments=20
or circumstances, even on the same ship.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The product of security and convenience is a =
constant.&nbsp;=20
In other words, the more security you have, the less convenience - and =
vice=20
versa.&nbsp; For this reason, if for no other, there will be different =
levels of=20
security.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I can think of several different circumstances that =
would all=20
cry out for different levels of security:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Grounded (not at a starport) with at least one =
trusted=20
crewmember aboard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Grounded and unoccupied.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Berthed (at a spaceport) with at least one trusted =
crewmember=20
aboard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Berthed and unoccupied.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Underway with no passengers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Underway with passengers.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>And since we've come to this juncture - what exactly =
does an=20
anti-hijack program do?&nbsp; Does it scan boarding passengers for=20
weapons?&nbsp;&nbsp;Monitor patterns of passenger movement for =
suspicious=20
activity?&nbsp; Compare facial features against a known database of=20
offenders?&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Is it completely passive? ("Sorry to interrupt =
Captain but=20
five passengers are approaching the bridge with weapons and shaped=20
charges")</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Or&nbsp;do automated systems take an active role in =
defending=20
the ship in the event of a hijack? (ZAP "Correction Captain.&nbsp; Make=20
that&nbsp;four passengers." ZAP&nbsp;"Sorry.&nbsp; Three.")&nbsp; =
Perhaps if the=20
vessel is taken and the Captain doesn't enter an override command, the =
A-H=20
program scrams the power plant.&nbsp; Or maybe the ship is experimental, =

powerful, or otherwise very _interesting_ in which case the A-H program =
decides=20
to scuttle in 30 minutes...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I _do_ love to give PCs a deadline.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:texasredshift@hotmail.com">texasredshift@hotmail.com</A></=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 06:46:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:46:59 +0100
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <007701c1da12$42ee6230$8d9493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
> stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
> making MY windows rattle.
>

I want plasma grenades for that....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 06:58:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 01:58:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: room clearing
In-Reply-To: <003f01c1d9d7$50c1d1c0$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184034.00a8bec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402015737.02815a50@pop.wizard.net>

>That sounds like something that troopers would break.
>As in "if you leave three soldiers in the desert with an anvil, and come
>back later, the anvil will be broken. And they won't know how it happened."

I sometimes think the entire purpose of boot camp was to teach me to 
convincingly say, "The private don't know, sir."

ObTrav:  Umm.  I'd better stop posting on this thread because I can't think 
of one.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:15:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 02:15:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Fixing Traveller [was How common is advanced life?]
In-Reply-To: <200204012252.DDN03437@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402020141.02817660@pop.wizard.net>

JT Kwon says:
>The problem I have with making corrections/changes/etc to the
>combat system of CT/Book 4 is that it is *very* easy to walk
>off the Cliffs of Complexity.
I agree.  What was most needed when MT came out (still is?) was for someone 
to take all CT rules and carefully synthesize them together into one volume 
to get rid of conflicts, ellipses, bits of char gen that improved one 
career but were still missing from older careers, etc.

That was chiefly what I was looking for in MT.  A revised and smoothly 
functioning CT.  Revised rule systems are all well and good, but I want a 
complete and coherent, nonbuggy, smoothly functioning rule set.

The next thing I was looking for was a lot more detailed world data in the 
Spinward Marches, and possibly noble and other governmental NPCs who run 
the Spinward Marches.  The adventures tended to gloss over a lot of 
stuff.  I realize there are different tastes there.  Some referees dislike 
having it all dictated to them.  I prefer having it all pregenerated for 
me, debugged and consistent with the rest of the universe, and using my own 
preferences and judgment to alter or throw out the stuff that suited me.

The other thing I was looking for was more cool science-fiction gizmos, 
preferably accompanied by really good gizmo illustrations.  Sometimes, one 
picture of ...a grav belt, let's say, is worth a few hundred well-chosen words.

Well before MT was issued, I tried taking Striker, Snapshot, the original 
three LBBs, Mercenary, etc. and reconciling all the weapon ranges and 
damage.  I gave it up for a lost cause.  I would have willingly parted with 
hard-earned cash to pay someone else (like GDW) to do it.

>I am trying to avoid using tables, except a few during
>character generation to come up with your initiative and your
>actions.

Mmmmm, I think well-designed tables with just the right accompanying 
titles, captions, and text blurbs can be extremely valuable.  I'm not shy 
about using them.  Excellent design, excellent writing, and excellent 
layout must all converge when it comes to tables in rule books.  But, 
ideally most of those extra chunks of reference and rule system will be 
modular, so the "nongearhead referee" can dispense with it and run the 
simple version quite easily and happily.  But let's not resurrect that 
debate, please.  Forget I ever mentioned.  This is not the rule-design 
droid you are looking for.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:13:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:13:16 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEFOCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
>
>Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
>stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
>making MY windows rattle.

No, I want the EMP grenade to shut off the cars whose xenon headlights are
blinding me, from behind, even when I've switched my rearview mirror to the
polarized position.  Hell, a parabolic mirror with a computer chip for
aiming would probably be enough to get them to back off.

The weapon I'm trying to figure out is an equalizer for pedestrians.
Anything that will actually stop or otherwise neutralize a moving vehicle
that is about to violate a crosswalk will have a danger space that includes
the pedestrian (like a LAW, M203, Panzerfaust, etc.) at typical engagement
ranges.  Anything safe for the pedestrian will not actually stop the vehicle
before impact -- the .44 magnum will shut down the engine, but the car will
keep on rolling.  Many weapons will neutralize the driver, but again, the
car will keep going.  It's a poser.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:22:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 23:22:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16sHfY-0003IO-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B8CE9C2B.34116%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/1/02 10:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that difficult to
> build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate power
> battery.  

I have yet to be convinced that such things will work, and be at all
effective.  Particularly as the  strength of burst will be inversely
proportional to the to the square of the distance.  Has anyone actually seen
a demonstration where this works?  It should be rather easy to test.

Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical martial
arts 'death touch'.
> 
> I've a few comments and questions here:
> 
> 1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this
> shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be
> overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP?

Gauss weapons won't need any complex and delicate circuitry if they're
anything like railguns.  I don't expect them to be vulnerable to EMP anymore
than a 1950s Chevy would be.
> 
> 2) While military equipment wil be shielded, many worlds would
> likely strongly prefer if civilian weapons were not, since having a
> way to stop everyone's guns from working would be a godsend for
> cops (who would presumably also have shielded weapons).
> 
> 3) Even if you don't get the weapons, cutting off someone's comm
> will at least stop them from calling for backup.

Common will certainly be more vulnerable, as will computers.  And the
government better tread lightly before using EMP.  Will hospitals be EMP
proof.  Patients with implants.  What about the impact on civil commerce?
Governments don't exist in vacuo. And count on sophisticated bad guys on
have stuff that's a good as what the cops and the military have, if not
better.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 07:23:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:23:25 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEFOCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>
>This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
>There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
>(or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
>sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
>example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.

Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's kind
of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not doing any more
jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the character
becomes motivated to take this one, last job.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:19:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:19:47 +0800
Subject: [TML] F14C Scorpion class light fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEIAEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Having apparently inspired people do do versions of this fighter for other
rules sets. It is about time I posted the original F14C Scorpion.

F14C SCORPION CLASS LIGHT FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION


The F14 Scorpion class of light fighter was at one time the most numerous
light fighter used by the Solomani Confederation. It was still in service in
large numbers with second line Solomani forces up to the final collapse, and
was used both as a subordinate craft on some larger starhips, and as a
planetary based fighter. The -C variant was the most numerous type, the
earlier -A and -B variants having been upgraded to the -C model. The earleri
versions mostly differed in the weaponry fitted.

General Data Displacement: 15 tons  Hull Armour: 40
Length: 15 meters  Volume: 210 cubic meters
Price: MCr22.494663  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 354.6512/318.5954 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 117Mw Fusion Power Plant (117Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (1.315Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 4 (18.25Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 40 , 2.28125 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 9

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 60,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 120,000km
Active EMS (4 hexes; 16.5Mw), 3xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 1xWorkstation

Armament Offensive: 1xTL13 50Mj Laser Lance (Loc: 1/4/5; Arcs 1; 13.889Mw;
No Crew), 4x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 4 7-ton missiles or recce drones

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
50Mj Laser Lance  4:1/5-17  8:1/3-9  16:1-4  32:1-2
-2 Difficulty Levels

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0118 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.5889 Mw)
Crew: 1 (1xManuever/Electronics/Gunner)
Crew Accommodations: 1xWorkstation
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 1.6 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 42 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.173 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  	Systems
1  	1-17:Ant  		1-10:Lance,11-20:Elec  	ELS-1H,
2-3  	Ant  			Elec  			LS-1H,
4-5  	Ant  			Hold  			LT-1H,
6-7  	Ant  			Hold  			Lance-1H,
8-9  	1-4:Ant  		Hold  			PP-1H,
10  	1-3:Hatch  		Qtrs  			All others-(1h),
11-13				Hold
14-15	1-11:Missile  	1-13:Grapple,14-20:Hold
16-17				1-14:Eng,15-20:Hold
20   				Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:19:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:19:49 +0800
Subject: [TML] RF14D Scorpion class light recon fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPEEIAEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

This is the recon version of my F14 Scorpion light fighter.

RF14D SCORPION CLASS LIGHT RECON FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION


The -D variant of the F14 Scorpion is the light reconnaisance version. The
major differenc between the -C and -D versions is the fitting of a more
capable sensor suite in the -D at the expense of most of the fighters
armament. A second workstation has also been provided to share the work load
of the fighter.

General Data Displacement: 15 tons  Hull Armour: 40
Length: 15 meters  Volume: 210 cubic meters
Price: MCr32.006997  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 315.6526/295.4188 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 106Mw Fusion Power Plant (106Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (0.1132Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 4 (16.25Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 42 , 2.03125 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 7

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 120,000km Passive EMS Folding Array (4 hexes; 0.15Mw), 60,000km
Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 300,000km Active EMS (10 hexes;
27.5Mw), TL13 Densitometer (0.9Mw), TL12 Neutrino Sensor (0.01Mw), 3xRunning
Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 2xWorkstations

Armament Offensive: 2x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 2 7-ton missiles or
recce drones

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0124 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.6191 Mw)
Crew: 2 (1xElectronics, 1xManuever/Gunner)
Crew Accommodations: 2xWorkstations
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 0.2 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 42 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.03125 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  	Surface Hits  		Internal Explosion  		Systems
1-5  		Ant  				Elec  				ELS-1H,
6-7  		Ant  				1:Qtrs,2-11:Elec,12-20:Hold  	LS-1H,
8-9,11-13  	Ant  				Hold  				PP-1H,
10  		1-3:Hatch,4-20:Ant  	Qtrs  				AEMS-(2h),
14-15  	1-5:Missile,6-20:Ant  	1-7:Grapple,8-20:Hold  		Neutrino-(2h),
16-17  	1-2:Ant  			1-15:Eng,16-20:Hold  		All others-(1h)
18-19   					1-15:Eng,16-20:Hold
20   						Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 03:34:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re:  Another Power Source For FF&S2?
In-Reply-To: <3CA92F7C.B45F42C3@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402033354.00a72bf0@pop.wizard.net>

John Groth says:
>Should we add chemoelectric potatoes as a power plant option in FF&S2?

Renewable energy that helps out with life support systems.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:31:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:31:01 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> This has driven me to tinker with starship costs quite a lot, trying
> to reduce their value by orders of magnitude.  I still haven't found
> a solution that seems properly balanced.

Do what I did in my GURPS game: make FTL drives cost comparable to
maneuver drives, and let them have a second- (or tenth-) hand ship.
This method should be applicable to Traveller; let's see...


Yes, okay.  If Jump-2 engines for the minimum 100 dton ship cost 1 MCr
instead of 10 MCr, then you can build a Jump-2 starship new for about
2.5 MCr.  Such a design uses primarily water tanks with a small fuel
processor to supplement much smaller LHyd tanks (the minimum needed to
initiate jump, whatever that is IYTU), and downgrades the sensors and
some other nonessential (but expensive) electronics.  With an
acceleration capability of 0.2G loaded, it won't ever land on a planet
but it can carry a shuttle that does.  It will also take about 10
hours to reach a 100D limit.  Of course it has no weapons -- even a
single laser costs a significant proportion of the total value.

If such a ship is in very poor but still serviceable condition, it
might be worth 250 kCr.  Valuable, but hardly an amount you could
retire to an island paradise in luxury for the rest of your life.
Especially if it is divided among 6 PCs :)


A probably unintentional side-effect of having very expensive jump
engines is that a starship owner can afford everything else to be
nearly top-of-the-line without greatly increasing the overall cost.
Slashing jump drive costs means that other cost-saving measures
actually become worthwhile, which (IMO) makes for much more
interesting design choices in the game.

Of course cutting jump drive costs by an order of magnitude means that
interstellar freight costs will be reduced, but not by an order of
magnitude.  Operating costs (crew, port fees, administration overhead,
maintenance) become the dominant factor rather than interest on the
mortgage.  I think I worked out a few years ago that the cost of jump
systems makes up about 60-70% of average freight costs (where are
these things when I need them), so the cost of freight would probably
halve.

There is yet another reason why I might recommend this approach.  If
low-acceleration unarmed merchant ships that have poor sensors and
can't land are common, it makes an excellent excuse for significantly
increased piracy levels around backwater worlds.  Not to mention the
fact that pirates can risk a much smaller monetary investment for
cargo that is still just as valuable as in the "expensive drives"
case.

;^>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 08:43:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 03:43:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>
References: <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402033956.00a76170@pop.wizard.net>

Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...

Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug, 
your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead 
GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is 
despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode of 
eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.

--Laning, Canoneer of God


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:06:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:06:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <003d01c1d9e9$a2218e40$f6b18b90@computer>
References: <20020401200104.BCEA627A48@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402034537.00a74010@pop.wizard.net>

Alan Bradley quotes me then asks:
> > From: laning
> > Obviously, a lone scout landing his ship on a planet with no starport, no
> > scout or naval bases, and no COACC will be much more vulnerable than the
> > fat trader sitting in its berth at the class A starport on the main world
> > in a hi pop, rich, industrial system with an Imperial Navy base, and TL 13
> > COACC to boot.  Conversely, the lone scout on that planet is much less
> > likely to have anyone attempt to steal his ship.
>
>One might also ask - what is that lone scout doing there alone?

Obvious.  Getting into trouble.  The ISS isn't silly enough to send lone 
scouts to planets.  It sends contact teams, survey teams, whatever, but in 
teams.  Um, perhaps his ship is suffering from technical problems and it's 
a forced landing.  He's looking for local help resolving the problem.

And thereby hangs at least a couple of different adventure seeds.  The 
aging ex-scout in a starport bar whose partner went jump mad, did something 
to the nav controls and caused a misjump then committed suicide.  He was 
forced to land on a world whose exact location he was unsure of to seek 
help, the seemingly primitive local chirpers gathered around his ship, then 
he just _knew_ somehow that the ship was fixed.  He reboarded it, it worked 
fine.  Too fine!  It used fuel at one one-hundredth of the normal 
rate!  And he couldn't figure out how or why.  He also just _knew_ what nav 
settings to use to jump back to civilization and didn't think to question 
that, just did it.  When he got back to an ISS base, they told him the 
incident never happened and took the ship away "for repairs".  He was 
abruptly transferred to a training command as an instructor, where they 
spent about one month debriefing him on his experience in great detail.  He 
can't say exactly where that planet was, but he thinks he might remember 
the nav settings he used to jump away from it, and he knows where that jump 
ended.

Or.  Your small scout vessel has just had its fuel purifier go bad and 
you've landed on a TL 6 planet that you were only supposed to orbit.  You 
need to negotiate with the locals for refined fuel.  If you meet with their 
scientists you think you can arrange for them to refine what you need.  But 
you have to get past their military and politicians first.  Several of whom 
think the smart thing to do with an alien spaceship is keep it for 
themselves, but it's locked.  You're starting to think your only chance of 
staying alive for now is to convince them they cannot get inside the ship 
without your help.  Klaatu barada nictu.

Or.  Your tramp trader calls on an out of the way system in hopes of 
selling some chameleon cloth or other gewgaws to the natives, and maybe 
picking up some unique local handiworks that you can sell to archeologists 
when you return to civilization.  Hey, an independent business soph has to 
be creative to stay ahead of the big corporate competition.  So you do a 
few orbital passes while you make a survey.  Never land blindly, not if you 
want to live a long time in this business.  There's a ship down there in 
the jungle.  You get a close up photo image.  It's practically overgrown 
with jungle!  Not enough IR signature to be generating any heat 
internally.  No beacons.  Doesn't respond to any radio hails.  You send the 
ship's boat to investigate.  It's a scout ship, a model that hasn't been in 
common use for about fifteen Imperial years.  There are two skeletons on 
the bridge, visible through the viewport.  If you manage to get past the 
locked outer airlock door,  it will have to be by force.  That's when you 
find more skeletons in the interior corridor adjacent to the 
airlock.  Visible through the viewport again.  If you manage to force your 
way past the inner airlock door, that's when the ship begins to power up 
and various antihijack programs kick in.  You're starting to think you know 
how the skeletons next to the airlock got to be that way.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:20:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:20:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017710264.2767.ajackson@ping>
References: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>

Anthony Jackson quoted then wrote:
>Matthew Bond writes:
> > One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's
> > at doorlocks etc...
> >
> > How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> > Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior
> > is exposed to Vacuum?
>
>How many ships do you really think are going to be locked while in use?
>There's a difference between 'security while the vehicle is inhabited' and
>'security while everyone is away'.

I agree with Matt Bond about avoiding biometrics.

There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example.  Paying 
passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them through the 
passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger areas of the ship.  Each 
keycard is unique to each passenger, and so the same card gets them into 
their own private cabin.  Crew will have similar cards, that give them more 
freedom, and exactly how much and which greater freedoms would depend on 
the crew member's billet.  In a hijack situation, the captain or bridge 
watch officer uses a much higher level of security access to lock down all 
passenger hatchways, among various other security measures  This overrides 
the passenger keycards, of course, and limits crewmember keycards according 
to the specific alert situation.  The higher levels of access can't require 
a physical key because that might not be possible in some emergency 
scenarios.  Thus, it requires more elaborate and closely guarded usernames 
and passwords.

Voice print and/or retina scan _might_ be required for confirmation, but 
only as an additional measure.  Voiceprints are vulnerable to spoofing with 
recordings or even computer-synthesized voices.  Retina scans would only be 
desirable if they can be read through a vacc suit faceplate.  And they 
might be subject to spoofing, as well.  So even these two biometrics would 
probably be ignored by skilled designers of most ship security systems.

The biggest vulnerability is if someone gains knowledge of the captain's 
username and password.  That's why there's an owner's username and password 
that can override even the captain's access level.  In situations where law 
enforcement needs it, they can usually get it from the owner.  Sufficiently 
clever and ruthless hijackers might be able to do so, also.  That would be 
bad.  What provisions can we make for the captain and crew to neutralize 
hijackers who had done that?  Weapons and vacc suits and that's about 
it?  They should start out with physical possession of the bridge and 
engineering, so the hijackers would still have a fight on their hands 
before being able to fly the ship.  Maybe there should be lots of panic 
buttons around the ship.  Break glass and pull handle to start the 
"Emergency, I am being hijacked" beacon.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:29:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
References: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402042211.00a7a020@pop.wizard.net>

Matt Bond asks:
>Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
>kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
>Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Okay, I guess the security override system is composed of very tiny 
computerized access points, networked together.  They normally act as dumb 
workstations for talking to the ship's computer, but in case of network or 
computer problems they can act independent of the ship's computer to let 
stranded people with proper username and password enter the ship safely.

This creates a couple of vulnerabilities, but that is accepted in the name 
of user safety.  Now, would be hijackers only have to spoof the tiny dumb 
workstation computer at one of the access points if they want to board the 
ship.  The workstation knows all the usernames and passwords, although even 
a dumb workstation can be pretty tough to crack heavily encrypted data like 
that.  The hijackers could bring along some smart computer of their own to 
try to crack it.  They could eavesdrop on network traffic between the 
workstation and the ship's computer and crack the username and password 
that way.

Therefore, usernames and passwords are rotated frequently, and the network 
link between the workstation and ship's computer is fiber optic.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:40:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:40:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV58nLJm2ZBNCogiwH0001b30b@hotmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401123631.027d3840@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402043102.0280d0f0@pop.wizard.net>

Bill Scheets aka Tex says:
>Agreed.  Clearly
>Step 5. Getting Away
>needs to be included.

And Step 6.  Continuing To Get Away With It The Rest Of Their 
Lives.  Staying in Imperial space, for instance, and having to deal with 
not only transponder IDs, but all kinds of ship's papers and records, 
personal IDs, and all this checked against......databases.

I'm thinking that in Zhodani space, the thieves just have to fool the 
telepathic Thought Police who make routine boarding inspections of all 
docked ships.  And everyone entering the starport has to get past 
telepathic Thought Police at checkpoints.  It's going to be awfully hard to 
get away with this crime there.  But even with this security, the Zhodani 
will probably employ databases and various kinds of ID for ships, ships 
crews, major starship components, and cargos.  As well as the usual logs, 
flight plans, maintenance records, safety inspections, more thorough 
inspections during annual maintenance, yatta yatta yatta.

There's a reason that Vargr space is as disorganized as Traveller indicates 
it is at the governmental level.  Much easier for piracy and other such 
activities in or near Vargr space.  Very convenient for many 
campaigns.  And perhaps we've discovered a way to reconcile the piracy+ 
crowd with the piracy- crowd.  Piracy can be viable, but only in regions 
like the Vargr Extents and other regions of space where governmental 
authority only has a short reach.  Which really just rephrases what some of 
us have been saying for a long time.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 09:57:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 04:57:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Stealing Starships - More
In-Reply-To: <DAV43jxq6pgtq33Z4WN00012b23@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402044404.0280ec90@pop.wizard.net>

>And since we've come to this juncture - what exactly does an anti-hijack 
>program do?  Does it scan boarding passengers for weapons?  Monitor 
>patterns of passenger movement for suspicious activity?  Compare facial 
>features against a known database of offenders?
>
>Is it completely passive? ("Sorry to interrupt Captain but five passengers 
>are approaching the bridge with weapons and shaped charges")
>
>Or do automated systems take an active role in defending the ship in the 
>event of a hijack? (ZAP "Correction Captain.  Make that four passengers." 
>ZAP "Sorry.  Three.")  Perhaps if the vessel is taken and the Captain 
>doesn't enter an override command, the A-H program scrams the power 
>plant.  Or maybe the ship is experimental, powerful, or otherwise very 
>_interesting_ in which case the A-H program decides to scuttle in 30 minutes...

Assuming you've paid for a real, live Antihijack program, then the answer 
is it will do any and all combinations of the above, plus a lot of other 
things besides.  You just go to any console that lets you access the user 
interface for your Antihijack program and select any of a number of popular 
default configurations.  Then start customizing it as you desire.  Assuming 
your username and password is authorized.  A significant part of 
configuring its settings is to determine exactly what access and overrides 
each username is granted.  Probably the vendor who sold it to you had an 
installation consultant visit and spend an hour or three until you had at 
least one crew member comfortable with it.  Its capabilities have evolved 
for literally centuries and there are few situations that have not been 
thought of.  The user interface has evolved for a similar period of time 
and is surprisingly intuitive and easy to use.

There would be various hardware extras that you may or may not want to 
install.  You want a flamethrower pointed down the airlock corridor and 
controllable via the Antihijack program?  No problem, we can have it 
delivered and installed in one to three days.  That'll run you extra for 
the hardware, plus an additional installation fee for configuring it 
properly with the software.  Only available where law level permits.  You 
are responsible for showing our salesman all required government permits 
before the sale can be final.  You should check with your liability insurer 
before getting any fixed interior weaponry as it may void your policy or 
require a new rider.  You should also be warned that such riders tend to be 
extremely expensive.  Manufacturer and vendor are in no way liable for 
injuries, death, or property damaged which might involve said flamerthrower.

When a really cheap starship costs tens of millions and most starship types 
cost hundreds of millions, there will be pretty elaborate and effective 
layers of security to prevent loss.  And software applications will have 
been evolved and debugged for hundreds of years, which is a way of thinking 
that most of us on the TML need to consciously force ourselves into because 
we're used to all software being relatively new, somewhat unstable, usually 
a bastard of a user interface, never the same two years in a row, etc.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 10:02:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 05:02:30 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <003e01c1d9e9$a89db640$f6b18b90@computer>
References: <20020401233805.EE3E0279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402045857.02801d60@pop.wizard.net>

Alan Bradley, who has been there and has the tee shirt to prove it, says:
>"Yep, I sold off the Empress Augusta and settled down here.  I've got a
>harbour, some plantations, a couple of mines, a hospital, a couple of
>schools and a beach resort.  I've got some boats, some air/rafts, a fusion
>reactor and a refinery.  I've got human domestic staff and my own army.
>What more could I want?  Of course, that scumbag over in Tomania thinks he
>has the right to rule the world, but there are enough of us independent
>enclaves to make sure he doesn't."

Perfect, Chairman Laning and his Lanite citizens should find King Bradley 
to be an excellent neighbor and ally.  You're invited to drop over anytime 
for tropical drinks on the veranda.  The dancing girls put on a fine show 
around the bonfire after midnight, it's always a big hit with guests.  Just 
be sure to let us know before heading over, so we can make sure the air 
defense system doesn't do anything rash to your air rafts.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 10:29:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 05:29:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices [was Re: Living...on an
 Airplane]
In-Reply-To: <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>

Tim Little responded to my quest for much cheaper starships with very 
interesting thoughts.  I've had mostly the same ideas, but yours are better 
organized and developed, Tim.  Thanks much.  :->

The two big differences for me would be reducing the overall cost by at 
least two or even three orders of magnitude, and trying to do it so that 
there's still a huge price jump going from nonstarship to starship.

In other words, reduce hull, computer, maneuver, and power plant costs by 
probably two orders of magnitude but jump drives by only one.  Which still 
doesn't work out quite as tidily as I'd like.

I would like it if you could commission say a really nice yacht for 3 
megacredits or less.  Which is still a huge sum of money.  Weaponry and 
shield costs would remain unmodified.  Or a 200-ton free trader for maybe 
just under 1 megacredit, built new.  I don't want to open the rule books 
right now to run the numbers because I'm already way overdue to hit the 
rack and sleep.

One of the problems with the above approach is anyone with good credit and 
a good business plan could build jump-5 or jump-6 ships and they would be 
too common.  Which got me to wondering if I couldn't make the cost for jump 
drives go up proportional to the square of the jump number.  Which in turn 
got to me wondering if it would be a good idea to have the same type of 
relationship for power plants and maneuver drives.  Probably yes to jump 
drives and no to the others.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 10:30:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:30:26 +1200
Subject: [TML] Re: Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020331112145.025208a0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020331073926.009f9080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CAA3102.30051.BC0A20@localhost>

On 31 Mar 2002, at 11:29, laning wrote:

> This has led me to wonder if Orthodox Jews ever make it off the planet 
> Earth in the canonical Traveller universe.  Perhaps in low 
> berths?  Probably not.  Would the opportunity to actually meet these 
> foreign people called Orthodox Jews be a tourist attraction when planning 
> to travel to Terra?

To be honest, I don't think Jews (of any ilk) would be all that 
common in the Traveller Universe. There are under 15 million Jews 
worldwide right now (13.6 IIRC) and the faith doesn't encourage 
conversion. I'd say 100 million tops for 1100 Imperial (probably far 
less), mostly clustered on and around Terra. The vast majority of 
Imperial citizens have probably never heard of them. However, I 
would say that they will still be around.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 11:28:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:28:20 +1200
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAA3E94.13432.F10D0B@localhost>

On 1 Apr 2002, at 17:25, John T. Kwon wrote:

> You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles, 
> but they don't have an air force anymore.

We don't actually need an airforce, the 1,800 km moat serves well 
enough unless you're going to bring along an aircraft carrier. And if 
you can bring along an aircraft carrier, we couldn't have stopped 
you anyway.

Vague ObTrav: Think of all the thousands of low to mid population 
worlds. They have no hope of stopping a half serious assault, so 
how are their defence forces structured? A small professional force 
sufficent to deal with casual raiders and to act as a cadre for a 
guerilla resistance until someone comes to their rescue. One to 
three battalions of mobile ground troops and two or three heavy 
fighters should be sufficent.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 11:38:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:38:14 +1200
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185058.00a65e80@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEIGHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

laning wrote :
> JT Kwon wrote:
> >Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
> >
> >You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles,
> >but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up
> >with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right
> >positions in government for the die hards, it might work.
>
> The worst part is it's probably the New Zealanders on
> the list who are laughing the hardest at that.  :->

I thought we wuz included in the "right positions in government
for the die hards" bit ?

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 11:38:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:38:13 +1200
Subject: [TML] room clearing
In-Reply-To: <200204012148.DDL03372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEIGHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

John Kwon writes
>(Megan Robertson)  says
> >Subject: Re: [TML] room clearing
> >
> >The British Army method is: -
> >
<snip>
> Yes, that's very similar to what was SOP just prior to the
> last technique.  What you describe above is what is known as
> Battle Drill #6.

One assumes all the room clearing techniques being discussed are
for bunkers or concrete buildings of better than average
construction against a well-motivated enemy.

To clear a modern apartment, office or hotel room, stand in the
hallway outside, and spray the room(s) with automatic fire,
remembering to cover the entire wall and especially remembering
to fire at ground level a few times.

Then push the wall over.

Just remember that the wall isn't going to give _you_ any cover
when you start firing either.
<grin>

Oh, and remember to fire in to the air outside the building a few
times first. Based on my observations of most troops and the
majority of civilians, that'll mean they'll be standing in the
windows, looking for where the shots came from.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:02:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:02:37 -0500
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIADJAA.tml@downport.com>

I'm doing some research for a TAS supplement and could use some help with
references. The supplement will be CT, but I'd like to read up on any
reference, in any version, that mentions the TAS.

If you'd like to reply in the thread on the TAS-Net web boards, here is the
thread URL: http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=38. I'll get them all
into the thread, eventually.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
"In conclusion, remember that Traveller
  is a game, and that it goes differently
    for everyone who plays. Bon voyage!"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:14:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:14:25 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <20020402064409.B8250279FA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c1da40$0a82f040$2c5d8690@computer>

> From: JR Holmes 
> This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
> There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
> (or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
> sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
> example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.
> 
> =46rom a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become part
> of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
> destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
> becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.

You evil naughty man...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:12:36 +1000
Subject: [TML] RE: Room Clearing
Message-ID: <001e01c1da40$09e43f40$2c5d8690@computer>

> From: "David & Kristin Larson"
> Flash-bangs are in relatively common use (at least I've had no problem
> getting them from the ASP).

Just last week one of the veterans at work was showing us the scars he got
from a flash-bang that went off too close to him.

He and some other army guys were training with a bunch of cops  (Tactical
Response Group - SWAT types), when one of the cops rolled a flash-bang the
wrong way.  Result:  small but interesting shrapnel wounds.  My friend was
actually behind the guy that took the brunt of the bang, but the grenade had
rolled between his feet, and bounced off a wall before going off.

All of this was apparently rather embarrassing to the people responsible for
organising the exercise.  Fortunately nobody was seriously injured, so their
butts weren't kicked too hard.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 12:15:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:15:22 GMT
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net> <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3ca99b9a.4755858@post.demon.co.uk>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:

>> >I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air
>force.
>>
(snip)
>
>Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns =
are
>very handy for burglars...

I want an L5 space station, then I can not only declare independence,
but address communications to world leaders as "foolish
Earth-beings!".

And if anybody objects, well, I'm at the top of the gravity well and
there are lots of rocks in space...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 13:12:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:12:18 +0100
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401184434.00a88150@pop.wizard.net> <005c01c1d9d8$416de910$6a9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <3ca99b9a.4755858@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <002301c1da48$17342b80$d99593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
>Weren't they selling HMS Belfast off for about 3 million? 6-inch guns are
>very handy for burglars...

I want an L5 space station, then I can not only declare independence,
but address communications to world leaders as "foolish
Earth-beings!".

And if anybody objects, well, I'm at the top of the gravity well and
there are lots of rocks in space...

Excellent! Though sitting out on the Veranda on an evening is a bit
chilly....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:07:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 06:07:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020402140743.71732.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Matthew Bond <mattgbond@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA
> while in space to do some
> kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my
> Airlocks Starport Locking
> Mechanism. How do I get back in?

I don't think it is even that necessary to contrive
the possibility.  I don't think that every port of
call on a vaccuum world is going to pressurize the
landing area.  They may have special vehicles to get
you from your ship to the StarPort, but if they don't,
its into the vacc suit.  Then how do you get back into
your ship?


Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:16:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:16:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <03b401c1da51$0d6c92f0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

I've often through of a bass seeking missle for just such an occasion

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 6:54 PM
Subject: RE: [TML] handy device


> Dude, I want EMP grenades just to toss under those ANNOYING cars at
> stoplights that are thumping music so loud and with so much bass that it's
> making MY windows rattle.
>
> Jesse
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:40 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] handy device
>
>
> They already have something today that will zoom under your
> car, and give it an EMP burst to kill the engine (you can't
> even restart).
>
> There's got to be a grenade-like device for this.  You're in
> a suit that relies on electronics.  A gauss or laser weapon
> will rely on electronics (might be shielded if milspec).
> Grenades that use electronic fuses might become inert or even
> go off.  NVGs would stop working (if not milspec).
>
> It would really bite to be all decked out with gear, and then
> have something like this land at your feet.  You might be
> left with 20 kg of encumbering armor and a high-tech club.
>
> Shades of Team Fortress Classic.
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:22:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:22:58 EST
Subject: [TML] Malorn Union and Winston Democracy
Message-ID: <a2.235606a8.29db18c2@aol.com>

Can anyone tell me anything about these two pocket states beyond
their names and allegiance codes?

I'm reworking Aldebaran sector for an upcoming GURPS Traveller book.
I need to know how seriously I need to consider leaving these two states
in existence :-). Clearly they aren't canonical in the strict sense of the
word, but if any fans are fond of them I can't be too cavalier about
erasing them. . .

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:40:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 00:40:39 +1000
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9C2E7.20705@gmx.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>"MJ Dougherty" says
>
>>I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my 
>>own air force.
>>
>
>Maybe you should consider New Zealand ;)
>
>You would have to contend with a few die hards with rifles, 
>but they don't have an air force anymore.  If you show up 
>with your own air force, or offer enough cash and the right 
>positions in government for the die hards, it might work.
>
Don't laugh... this may have already happened.
-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:34:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:34:38 +0800
Subject: [TML] F17 Starfire class light fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEIFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Just when you thought it was safe, another fighter.

F17 STARFIRE CLASS LIGHT FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION



The F17 Starfire class light fighter was designed at the same time as the
F16 Scimitar class light fighter, with which it shares many components. Not
as fast as the Scimitar, having a maneuver drive capable of 4G compared to
the Scimitars 5G, the Starfire does carry a somewhat heavier armament in the
form of two 50-Mj Laser Lances compared to the Scimitars single.

General Data Displacement: 20 tons  Hull Armour: 50
Length: 16 meters  Volume: 280 cubic meters
Price: MCr25.172723  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 471.972/434.9299 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 151Mw Fusion Power Plant (75.5Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (0.2232Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 4 (23.5Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 41.6 , 2.9375 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 12

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 60,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 120,000km
Active EMS (4 hexes; 16.5Mw), 3xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 2xWorkstations

Armament Offensive: 2xTL13 50Mj Laser Lances (Loc: 2/3; Arcs 1; Loc: 18/19;
Arcs: 5; 13.889Mw each; No Crew), 4x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 4 7-ton
missiles or recce drones

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
50Mj Laser Lance  4:1/5-17  8:1/3-9  16:1-4  32:1-2
-2 Difficulty Levels

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0157 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.7828 Mw)
Crew: 2 (1xManuever/Electronics/Gunner, 1xGunner)
Crew Accommodations: 2xWorkstations
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 0.4 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 56 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.182 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  		Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  	Systems
1  			Ant  			Elec  			LS-2H,
2-3  			1-18:Ant  		1-11:Lance,12-20:Elec  	PP-2H,
4-5  			1-19:Ant  		1-7:Elec,8-20:Hold  	ELS-1H,
6-7  			1-19:Ant  		1:Qtrs,2-20:Hold  	Lance-1H,
8-9,11-13   				Hold  			MD-(2h),
10  			1-2:Hatch  		Qtrs  			All others-(1h),
14-15  		1-10:Missile  	1-10:Grapple,11-14:Eng,15-20:Hold
16-17   					Eng
18-19   					1-11:Lance,12-20:Eng
20   						Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 14:34:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:34:35 +0800
Subject: [TML] F16 Scimitar class light fighter (TNE)
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEIFEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

F16 SCIMITAR CLASS LIGHT FIGHTER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION



The Scimitar class light fighter was in widespread service with Solomani
forces, especially second line units, at the start of the Second Solomani
Rim War. As the war progressed Scimitars were gradually pushed into first
line units because of losses of more advanced types.

Somewhat larger than the F14 Scorpion they could not use the launch tubes on
Consort class escort carriers, they were faster than the Scorpions, boasting
a 5G capability.

General Data Displacement: 20 tons  Hull Armour: 60
Length: 16 meters  Volume: 280 cubic meters
Price: MCr25.64925  Target Size: VS
Configuration: Cylinder AF  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 487.4876/456.9102 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 166Mw Fusion Power Plant (83Mw/hit), 1 month
duration (1.1585Mw surplus)
G-Rating: 5 (24.4Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 43 , 3.05 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 11

Electronics Computer: 2xTL13 St (0.45Mw each)
Commo: 300,000km Radio (10 hexes; 10Mw), 1,000AU Maser (8 ; 0.6Mw)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics, TL13 Terrain Following Avionics
Sensors: 60,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (2 hexes; 0.06Mw), 120,000km
Active EMS (4 hexes; 16.5Mw), 3xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw ea.)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Flight Deck with 2xWorkstations

Armament Offensive: 1xTL13 50Mj Laser Lance (Loc: 2/3; Arcs 1; 13.889Mw; No
Crew), 3x7-ton capacity AF Grapples for 3 7-ton missiles or recce drones

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
50Mj Laser Lance  4:1/5-17  8:1/3-9  16:1-4  32:1-2
-2 Difficulty Levels

Accommodations Life Support: Basic (0.0148 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
0.7374 Mw)
Crew: 2 (1xManuever/Electronics, 1xGunner)
Crew Accommodations: 2xWorkstations
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 0.3 cubic meters
Air Locks: None (1 Hatch)
Additional Fittings: None

Notes

No fuel purification machinery. Fuel scoop capacity 56 cubic meters per
hour. Fills tankage in 2.342 hours Life support and artificial
gravity/inertial compensation does not extend to fuel spaces.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  		Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  	Systems
1  			Ant  			Elec  			LS-2H,
2-3  			1-18:Ant  		1-11:Lance,12-20:Elec  	PP-2H,
4-5  			1-19:Ant  		1-7:Elec,8-20:Hold  	ELS-1H,
6-7  			1-19:Ant  		1-2:Qtrs,3-20:Hold  	Lance-1H,
8-9,12-13   				Hold  			MD-(2h),
10  			1-2:Hatch  		Qtrs  			All others-(1h)
11,14-15  		1-5:Missile  	1-5:Grapple,6-20:Hold
16-19   					1-13:Grapple,14-20:Hold
16-19   					1-19:Eng,20:Hold
20   						Eng

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:03:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 08:03:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402033956.00a76170@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>
 <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402080234.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>

At 03:43 AM 4/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
>>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...
>
>Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug, 
>your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead 
>GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is 
>despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode 
>of eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.
>
>--Laning, Canoneer of God

I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.

(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...

100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.


--

Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:05:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:05:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35DE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

LOL!!!  That's the other one that my roomies and I thought of as well!  That, and "Too-stupid-to-live" ortillery ;D

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Pratt [mailto:cdpratt@gatecom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 6:17 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] handy device


I've often through of a bass seeking missle for just such an occasion

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:09:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:09:42 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401200903.009eb100@mindspring.com>
 <20.267e102b.29d9f5ce@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020402080234.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9D7C6.8D7E0D48@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 03:43 AM 4/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
> >>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...
> >
> >Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug,
> >your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead
> >GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is
> >despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode
> >of eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.
> >
> >--Laning, Canoneer of God
> 
> I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
> 
> (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> 
> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

All right, I'll take that challenge...

<<paraphrase spoiler space>>












<<paraphrase spoiler space ends>>

Galileo's "Yet it still moves."

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:23:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:23:29 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [TML] [ANNOUNCEMENT] Frontiers PBeM Campaign
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204021821020.168484-100000@svati>

Hi all,

  I'm setting up a PBeM in the Spinward Marches/Trojan Reaches
sectors and are looking for some interested players. More
info can be found by going to the PBeM section on
www.travellercentral.com

Cheers
Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 16:43:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:43:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] [ANNOUNCEMENT] Frontiers PBeM Campaign
Message-ID: <OF198476A5.770671F6-ON85256B8F.005B7FB4@pheaa.org>








<snip>
  I'm setting up a PBeM in the Spinward Marches/Trojan Reaches
sectors and are looking for some interested players.
</snip>

I would like to play. i cant check traveller central from work so could you
let me know what version of traveller you will be using? will the gm be
making Pre-generated chars? if not can we request a pre generated char?

thanks

Bill






From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:04:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:04:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] room clearing
References: <200203312207.DBP01462@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401224917.01b08448@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3CA9E49E.50806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:

> Flash bangs are also quite dangerous in confined spaces.  The big 
> difference between that and fragmentation grenade is lack of 
> fragmentation in the Flashbang.  You still have about the same amount of 
> explosive material.

Yep, and they're powerful, too. There was a police raid on a house a 
good 90-100 yards away from our house. They tossed a fb in the front 
door of the place. The boom rattled the windows in OUR house, and was 
loud enough, I started looking for which next-door neighbor's furnace 
exploded.

Moreover, the windows were rattled hard on the side of our house *away* 
from the raid, which had the bulk of three houses between us and the 
explosion.

I can't imagine what it was like *inside* that room.
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:04:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:04:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
Message-ID: <200204021704.DEX06493@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>
>(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
>
>100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
>
galileo
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:11:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:11:27 +0200
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIADJAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIADJAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020402191127.6b66c4f3.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Swordy wrote:
> I'm doing some research for a TAS supplement and could use some help
with
> references. The supplement will be CT, but I'd like to read up on any
> reference, in any version, that mentions the TAS.
> 
> If you'd like to reply in the thread on the TAS-Net web boards, here is
the
> thread URL: http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=38. I'll get them
all
> into the thread, eventually.

Wouldn't this make for an excellent GT supplement as well? That way, it
might even see print...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:14:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16sHfY-0003IO-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017767692.2225.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
>
> 1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this 
> shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be 
> overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP? 

The shielding necessary to protect a gauss rifle from its own operation will
shield from levels of EMP that aren't lethal to humans at short range.
> 
> 2) While military equipment wil be shielded, many worlds would 
> likely strongly prefer if civilian weapons were not, since having a 
> way to stop everyone's guns from working would be a godsend for 
> cops (who would presumably also have shielded weapons).  

And, for various reasons, unshielded weapons will be very unpopular, since EMP
devices are nowhere difficult enough to build for only the cops to have them. 
Any world with a law level high enough to want all weapons to be unshielded
probably also has a law level high enough not to permit civilian ownership of
gauss or energy weapons, and a CPR gun with non-electronic sights is immune to
EMP at levels that won't kill humans. 
> 
> 3) Even if you don't get the weapons, cutting off someone's comm 
> will at least stop them from calling for backup.

True, though lasercomms and burst transmitters can be shielded fairly easily. 
A conventional radio would be hard to shield.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:17:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:17:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017767869.7543.ajackson@ping>

Matthew Bond writes:

> Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
> kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
> Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Ok, we're talking once in a hundred year scale accidents here, so we don't
worry about it.  However, most likely the scout left the door open, making the
issue moot.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:26:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:26 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [TML] room clearing
Message-ID: <memo.187211@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3CA9E49E.50806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Greetings dear hearts.

I've been on the receiving end of a flash-bang, fortunately while standing 
outside in the dark, and that's quite enough, thank you!

I couldn't see a thing for quite some time.

The odd thing was, I issued a challenge in what to me was just a random 
direction, and managed to draw a bead on the fellow who chucked it. I 
never did let on to him that I hadn't somehow spotted him... just adds to 
the legend :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:28:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:28:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
Message-ID: <20020402.093118.-186857.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


> Douglas Berry says
> >
> >(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> >
> >100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
> >
>  

"We look for things to make us go" ??? ST:TNG

Turokan

.--.   ...       .----   .----   -....   ---...   ----.       ..      
.--   ..   .-..   .-..       .--   .-   .-..   -.-       -...   .   ..-. 
 ---   .-.   .       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..       ..  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   .-   -.   -..       ---   ..-.       -
  ....   .       .-..   ..   ...-   ..   -.   --.   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:40:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:40:40 +0200
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
References: <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020402194040.7979a578.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Of course all the Major races evolved on Earthlike worlds... Its had to
> develop a spacefaring civilisation then there is a kilometres thick ice
> sheet between you and the stars (not that you'd even know they
existed...)

That is a point I hadn't thought of...

*sound of head hitting table repeatedly*

Combined with Doug's idea of psionic lifeforms, this might be really
interesting.

Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world under
the ice.

Off course, the Zhodani might be aware of such a race (since they have
both better defense against psionics and use robots heavily)...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:40:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Classic Traveller)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:40:36 -0500
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <20020402191127.6b66c4f3.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>

When it is completed I will publish it in PDF. That way it will definitely
see print "see print", if it is worth the paper to print it on ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Jens Rydholm

Swordy wrote:
> I'm doing some research for a TAS supplement and could use some help with
> references. The supplement will be CT, but I'd like to read up on any
> reference, in any version, that mentions the TAS.
>
> If you'd like to reply in the thread on the TAS-Net web boards, here is
the
> thread URL: http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=38. I'll get them
all
> into the thread, eventually.

Wouldn't this make for an excellent GT supplement as well? That way, it
might even see print...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:43:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:43:36 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <18.1cd71567.29db47c8@aol.com>

--part1_18.1cd71567.29db47c8_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 02/04/02 02:10:20 GMT Daylight Time, 
mattgbond@ntlworld.com writes:


> One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at
> doorlocks etc...
> 
> How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior 
> is
> exposed to Vacuum?
> 
> Not many...
> 
> Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by
> being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a 
> recording
> being played over radio)
> 
> I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices
> relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad 
> ID
> number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the
> card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you
> have access to your account.
> 
> After all, you want security to stop casual access to secure areas, but not
> so secure that it inhibits routine or emergency access.
> 
> Matt
> 

Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs 
starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're 
borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.

The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not to 
let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can probably 
see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information than 
you wish to give out.

If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems for 
opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch 
then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to a 
specialist lock-smith.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_18.1cd71567.29db47c8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 02:10:20 GMT Daylight Time, mattgbond@ntlworld.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at<BR>
doorlocks etc...<BR>
<BR>
How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit<BR>
Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior is<BR>
exposed to Vacuum?<BR>
<BR>
Not many...<BR>
<BR>
Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by<BR>
being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a recording<BR>
being played over radio)<BR>
<BR>
I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices<BR>
relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad ID<BR>
number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the<BR>
card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you<BR>
have access to your account.<BR>
<BR>
After all, you want security to stop casual access to secure areas, but not<BR>
so secure that it inhibits routine or emergency access.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.<BR>
<BR>
The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not to let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can probably see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information than you wish to give out.<BR>
<BR>
If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems for opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to a specialist lock-smith.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_18.1cd71567.29db47c8_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:46:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:46:30 EST
Subject: [TML] Questions, questions
Message-ID: <102.1302b0d5.29db4876@aol.com>

1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to 
remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible

2) Can Hivers hold their breath?

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 17:51:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:51:40 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
> First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might
be.
> Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in
the
> game universe are - IMO - dubious.

My main aim isn't to recreate the original Traveller sequence. If I'd
wanted that, I'd just use it instead of First In  ;-)

However, I want roughly the same spread of intelligent races as in typical
SF, ie the most common environment for sentinent life to evolve in is on
Earthlike worlds.

I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might look
under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary after a
while.

While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
function using radically different biochemistries?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:11:03 -0800
Subject: [TML] Traveller PBeMs
Message-ID: <B8CF3437.341C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Just checking back with everyone on the list.

If you are running a Traveller PBeM and want to advertise it, please drop me
a not.  I'm trying to get a lists of all Traveller PBeM posted to
TravellerCentral.

Thanks
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:27:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:27:36 +0100
Subject: [TML] Classic Traveller GM Screen
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020322222704.00b6d1b0@192.168.0.1>
 <3CA6EBDE.4F036886@virgin.net> <200203310632250552.5A478B7C@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CA9F818.C7735816@virgin.net>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 3/31/2002 at 10:58 AM Si wrote:
>
> >Guys ('n' gals),
> >
> >I am currently using the Judges Guild CT Referee's screen (the 4 page,
> >double-sided dark green one with the chunky writing - if there is more than
> >one).  As it is now getting on quite a bit (I am sure it must be well over 20
> >years old now, an age that most of us can only vaguely remember) and stuck
> >together with sellotape that is older than all 3 of my kids put together, i
> >would really like to print off a good version and get it laminated so i can
> >enjoy it for another 20+ years.  The problem is, i can't manage to scan a
> >decent copy and i don't want to photocopy it as i would ideally like an
> >electronic version I can manipulate a bit beforehand.
> >
> >does anyone on the TML have a decent electronic copy of this screen that they
> >could send me, or know how i can get a decent scan of it?
>
> Wait just a bit and you can have a brand new one!
>
> We (QLI) have a CT screen ready to go as soon as we print T20 (yeah yeah I know about the delays *grin*). The new screen is based in part on the original JG screen (we bought out the rights to the old JG Traveller material awhile back).
>
> Hunter

There is only so long i can wait dude

;-)

Seriously though, I intend to get the T20 stuff anyway, but i also want the original CT screen so i can run nostalgia games.

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:29:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:29:35 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: Accents and Bonuses
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020331073926.009f9080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9F88F.5EF04DC9@virgin.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 01:06 AM 3/31/02 -0800, you wrote:
> > >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> >
> > >How do you use the elevators?  You can't press the buttons on
> > >the Sabbath, nor can you ask someone to press your floor.
> >
> >The stairs you should take.  God forbid your heart should take that day off,
> >too.
>
> A solution if you have a room on the second or third floors..
>
> ObTrav: A ship crewed by Orthodox Jews sets up so they will spend Passover
> in jump.  They misjump, and come out of jump way early, on a course to hit
> something large and fatal.  Your characters are passengers on said
> ship..  Much fun happens.
>
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

Doubt it, you can break nearly every single law in order to save life (apart from
the total ban on cannibalism, murder and incest - i think)

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:47:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:47:55 -0700
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
>>This is what happens when people decide to "fix" Traveller.
>>First In does not produce Traveller worlds - however realistic it might
> 
> be.
> 
>>Design systems that do not allow you to create what already exists in
> 
> the
> 
>>game universe are - IMO - dubious.
> 
> 
> My main aim isn't to recreate the original Traveller sequence. If I'd
> wanted that, I'd just use it instead of First In  ;-)
> 
> However, I want roughly the same spread of intelligent races as in typical
> SF, ie the most common environment for sentinent life to evolve in is on
> Earthlike worlds.
> 
> I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might look
> under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary after a
> while.
> 
> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
> function using radically different biochemistries?

Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
reprinted in various places.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:52:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:52:24 -0700
Subject: [TML] Questions, questions
References: <102.1302b0d5.29db4876@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CA9FDE8.10303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to 
> remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible

Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's 
ridiculous as well. Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens, 
H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.

A more logical explanation would be that Gramps took H. hablis, geneered 
the species into H. sap, and re-seeded Terra, as well as Zhodane and 
Vland (and all the other planets) with the new species.

Would explain some of the more puzzling aspects of our evolution...

> 2) Can Hivers hold their breath?

Hold one under water and see...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:57:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 10:57:31 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
References: <18.1cd71567.29db47c8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008701c1da78$3e3cfec0$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Tuesday, April 02, 2002 9:43 AM
CHam628781@aol.com said,

> Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs
> starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're
> borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.
>
> The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not
to
> let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can
probably
> see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information
than
> you wish to give out.

Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power
biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.  If the
security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.

> If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems
for
> opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch
> then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to
a
> specialist lock-smith.

If there is a mechanical system for opening the door than it comes down to
cutting the power to the doors locking mechanism so that you can operate the
manual.  This usually wouldn't be too difficult.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"I do not fear computers.  I fear the lack of them." -Isaac Asimov


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 19:13:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:13:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> from "laning" at Apr 02, 2002 05:29:18 AM
Message-ID: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>

Laning writes:
> One of the problems with the above approach is anyone with good credit and 
> a good business plan could build jump-5 or jump-6 ships and they would be 
> too common.  Which got me to wondering if I couldn't make the cost for jump 
> drives go up proportional to the square of the jump number.  Which in turn 
> got to me wondering if it would be a good idea to have the same type of 
> relationship for power plants and maneuver drives.  Probably yes to jump 
> drives and no to the others.

I've always wondered why ships cost so much, particularly given
the degree of automation & robot labor which ought to be available.
And the idea for starting the cost low and then going up exponentially
based on the range of jump seems like a good one, but it needs to be
justified somehow. It seems to me that in a setting where energy costs
plummet to near zero (due to access to fusion), and where labor costs
plummet to near zero (due to massive use of robotics), you end up with
an economic framework (at least at the higher tech levels) where the
only stuff that really costs a great deal of money are status items
(priced high due to cost of advertising), new technologies (due to
cost of unamortized designer hours), and rare materials (priced high
due to rarity). In terms of starships, particularly for designs which
have been around for centuries, the only one of these factors that
holds up is the rare materials factor. Hence, lanthanum comes to mind.

So making the most expensive item of a starship the jump grid makes a
certain amount of economic sense, and making the price increase
exponentally due to the necessary "density" of the grid also makes
sense. Nonetheless, it seems like a bit of an extreme proposition to
say that lanthanum costs as much as it must in order for starships to
work out as expensive as they are in Traveller. All, IMHO. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 19:21:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:21:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017775268.4978.ajackson@ping>

jimv writes:
> 
> I've always wondered why ships cost so much, particularly given
> the degree of automation & robot labor which ought to be available.

Well, you do realize that traveller starships are huge.

Basically, ships have to be expensive or you run into problems with the
economics of the setting.  If you want cheaper ships, I'd reduce the minimum
size of jump-capable ships below 100 dtons.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 19:57:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam Draper)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:57:34 -0700
Subject: [TML] Making FFS2 more like High Guard
In-Reply-To: <20020402170616.65F2C279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGAEAICFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>

I written some rules in an attempt to make FFS2 a little simpler to use.
The system covers TL 11-15, and displacements of between 10 and 1,000.
Larger ships would not be difficult to add, except that I did not want to
include all of the appropriately enormous sensors and weapons.  Mass and
surface area are not used for the most part, although they could be added
easily in optional rules.  If anyone would like to take a look, my webpage
can be found at www.lansrc.com/~draper/nsds.  I would appreciate any
suggestions or comments you might have.

Thanks,

Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 18:09:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:09:16 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <12d.f1855a6.29da07cd@aol.com>
References: <12d.f1855a6.29da07cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020402200916.0b4f8c3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> This is unlikely since the complexity of the ecosystem is likely to be 
> related to the available food sources at the bottom of the food chain.
These 
> will be severely limited on an Ice ball, even an old one. Hence the easy
way 
> round the problem is to cap the positive modifiers available for
non-ocean 
> worlds. I'd suggest +6 is a suitable number, altough I'm not an expert
on 
> First In so other numbres might be more suitable. 

A +6 modifier makes it impossible for complex animals to evolve under the
ice, although simple animals are still possible. Simpler lifeforms remain
rather common (37% of all icy rockballs with subsurface oceans get some
form of life).

I like this. I'll keep it for MTU.

After playing around with some modifiers for the other world types, I
finally found numbers I feel good about:

Additions to Step 15
====================
Age bonus for icy rockballs limited to +6
-5 for nitrogen worlds
-3 for ammonia worlds

This gives the following results:

Spread of complex life over all worlds in the TU
================================================
Subgiant :  1.4%
Nitrogen : 22.2%
Ammonia  : 18.7%
Desert   : 19.6%
Icy sub. :  0.0%
Earthlike: 38.1%

Chance of complex life on a world of a given type
=================================================
Subgiant :  6.3%
Nitrogen :  8.4%
Ammonia  :  7.7%
Desert   :  6.8%
Icy sub. :  0.0%
Earthlike: 77.2%

(the above data was collected from a large dataset)

I'll probably keep these numbers. In any case, the modifiers are included
in my program now, which means that the script on my webpage behaves
accordingly.

If there is enough interest, I could easily put up a script for the
unmodified rules as well.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:15:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:15:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] test (sorry)
In-Reply-To: <20020402200916.0b4f8c3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIKDJAA.tml@downport.com>

testing FROM



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:18:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:18:46 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402151321.02829d40@pop.wizard.net>

>JimV says:
<<<snip>>>
>So making the most expensive item of a starship the jump grid makes a
>certain amount of economic sense, and making the price increase
>exponentally due to the necessary "density" of the grid also makes
>sense. Nonetheless, it seems like a bit of an extreme proposition to
>say that lanthanum costs as much as it must in order for starships to
>work out as expensive as they are in Traveller. All, IMHO. -Jim

I agree.  Plus, I think jump grids are supposed to canonically always have 
the same density regardless of jump number.  I suppose we could charge a 
lot more for zuchai crystals.  A particular piece of canon I've always been 
too embarrassed to throw at my players.  I keep trying to promote Traveller 
as a relatively 'hard SF' game.  Whether it is hard, semirigid, or soft, 
zuchai crystals seem to drop it down to the level of camp, soft SF occupied 
by original Star Trek.

And I still have the problem of making hulls, manuever drives, power 
plants, and computers priced exponentially higher as their capability go 
up.  (Well, exponent of capability would be one factor in the equation.  It 
wouldn't be a raw relationship because that would make jump-6 or 
maneuever-6 just too expensive.)

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:24:03 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [TML] [ANNOUNCEMENT] Frontiers PBeM Campaign
In-Reply-To: <OF198476A5.770671F6-ON85256B8F.005B7FB4@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204022222490.168484-100000@svati>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, William Lane wrote:

><snip>
>  I'm setting up a PBeM in the Spinward Marches/Trojan Reaches
>sectors and are looking for some interested players.
></snip>
>
>I would like to play. i cant check traveller central from work so could you
>let me know what version of traveller you will be using? will the gm be
>making Pre-generated chars? if not can we request a pre generated char?
>

The game will be using GURPS with som modifications. There are some
pre-generated characters available, and I can also generated characters
according to your wishes. Just ask :-)

Cheers
Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:28:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:28:40 -0500
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
References: <B8C61A03.316C2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020326160054.00a001b0@mindspring.com> <3CA524EC.1060204@gmx.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401164010.028111d0@pop.wizard.net> <001f01c1d9c8$14f2af20$629193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <052601c1da84$f9e24b60$1f9e15ac@warrior>

surely you've heard of Sealand then :)

http://www.sealandgov.com/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)


>
> >
> > My version of that dream is living on a really big yacht, with both a
> > twin-engined helicopter and a car aboard.
> >
> >
>
> I want an island, so I can be a sovereign nation and have my own air
force.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:26:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:26:17 +0000
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
Message-ID: <F150I5MQ8S8M30TqD1C000114f8@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
Cavalry.
     Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?
     Thanks in advance.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S. BTW, I'm recently back from a long business trip to Venezuela.  For 
those of you keeping score at home, you can now add Venezuela to the 
"Circling The Bowl" column of your nation/state scoresheets.  Indonesia and 
Zimbabwe may have had a head start, but Venezuela is coming up on the rail 
very quickly!


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:30:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:30:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017775268.4978.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204021913.g32JDP301752@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402152005.027e07c0@pop.wizard.net>

Anthony Jackson writes:
>Well, you do realize that traveller starships are huge.
>
>Basically, ships have to be expensive or you run into problems with the
>economics of the setting.  If you want cheaper ships, I'd reduce the minimum
>size of jump-capable ships below 100 dtons.

I thought of that, but have three problems there.

First, it's highly unlikely tiny starships will be able to support 
themselves.  They'll be _somewhat_ cheaper to construct, but still probably 
greater than 10 megacredits, but maintenance and operations will eat the 
owner alive.

The price reduction isn't enough for purposes of MTU.

I'd like to see large starships be more practicable for governments, 
corporations, and individuals to own.  Not just make it possible for people 
of more limited means to acquire the starship equivalent of a Volkswagen 
bug or a Hyundai.

It seems to me cost of starship _should_ be driven not primarily by size of 
hull but the aggregation of components in it.  It should be possible to 
construct the equivalent of a tramp coastal freighter significantly less 
than one megacredit.  It will have bare bones navigation and maneuever 
ability, just enough to enable it to get various operating permits and just 
enough to qualify for insurance at fairly cheap rates.  If the owner(s) 
prosper, then they can upgrade and rebuild key components.  Bridge and 
electronics, drives and power plant.  But that is what starts to cost.  And 
weapon prices should remain unchanged from canon, by and large.

All of this is just _a_ Traveller universe I'd like to run.  I don't 
seriously propose it as a change to canon.  Although, hmmm maybe.  Maybe it 
would be nice to see alternate price rules offered in the books to referees 
who desire the same sort of game effects I'm talking about.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:28:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:28:12 -0700
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices
References: <ML-2.3.1017775268.4978.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CAA145C.2030502@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> jimv writes:
> 
>>I've always wondered why ships cost so much, particularly given
>>the degree of automation & robot labor which ought to be available.
> 
> 
> Well, you do realize that traveller starships are huge.

Traveller starships are vessels of a magnitude somewhere between a C5 or 
Boeing 767 and a medium sized freighter, neither of which is cheap.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:33:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:33:08 -0600
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
References: <F150I5MQ8S8M30TqD1C000114f8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAA1584.37136E3E@premier.net>


"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the
> kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal,
> pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard
> Cavalry.

According to GT:BtC, the kian is native to Prilissa (3035 Trin's Veil)
[page 121].

I don't know of kian stats in any game system.

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:41:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:41:28 +0100
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>
Message-ID: <005101c1da86$d5f683e0$5d9493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Wouldn't this make for an excellent GT supplement as well? That way, it
> might even see print...
>
>
>

You could pitch it to Quiklink as part of the PDF line supporting
T20/CT.....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:44:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:44:18 +0000
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
Message-ID: <F127LDp7mvjkO22ZhCl0000dc60@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "How many have robots in their TU, and what form do they take?"


Mr. Kwon,

     Robots IMTU are little more than mobile, expert systems.  A pretty lame 
take on the subject, but creativity isn't one of my strong suits.
     The more robots deal with humans or operate within a general human 
setting, the more likely they'll be the upright, bipedal, anthromorphic 
robots of classic sci-fi.  A two-legged, vaguely human shaped, robot with 
arms and hands will be preferred as a steward or medic by most folks over a 
metal box on treads with tentacles.  Robots with "hands" will also be able 
to use the same utensils and tools the rest of the crew uses.
     Robots in industrial settings will be far less anthromorphic, in those 
settings function will drive form.
     The inclusion of the robot operations skill in later CT seemed to 
support my take on the subject.  While anyone could "use" a robot for simple 
purposes, only skilled operators could make full use of a robot's programmed 
skill set.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 20:51:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:51:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402152005.027e07c0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017780666.495.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> 
> I thought of that, but have three problems there.
> 
> First, it's highly unlikely tiny starships will be able to support 
> themselves.  They'll be _somewhat_ cheaper to construct, but still probably
>  greater than 10 megacredits, but maintenance and operations will eat the 
> owner alive.

Merchant ships pretty much need to be several tens of megacredits to have any
chance of business survival anyway.  The economics of scale at the low end are
too large.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:45:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:45:37 +1000
Subject: [TML] Bastardizing canonical ship prices [was Re: Living...on an Airplane]
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> In other words, reduce hull, computer, maneuver, and power plant
> costs by probably two orders of magnitude but jump drives by only
> one.  Which still doesn't work out quite as tidily as I'd like.

That would start to eat into my suspension of disbelief,
unfortunately.  I would expect a spaceship the size of a small mansion
to cost at least a similar amount, and probably quite a bit more.
After all, a planet-based house doesn't have to protect you against
solar flares, vacuum, extremes of heat and cold, or move at thousands
of kilometres per second.


> I would like it if you could commission say a really nice yacht for 3 
> megacredits or less.  Which is still a huge sum of money.

Well, you can think of a 100 dton spaceship as being about the volume
of 100-foot luxury yachts, which apparently have a price tag of a few
million US dollars.  I don't think a spacecraft should cost a lot
less; quite the reverse.


>  Weaponry and shield costs would remain unmodified.  Or a 200-ton
> free trader for maybe just under 1 megacredit, built new.

My figures get close to this *without* a jump drive, at 1.5 MCr.  I
get jump-1 engine plus minimum fuel at 1.4 MCr, so getting close.


> Which got me to wondering if I couldn't make the cost for jump
> drives go up proportional to the square of the jump number.

IMO, they ought to.  Supposedly, the difficulty of building jump
drives with successive capabilities increases per *tech level*, so it
must be greatly more difficult.  At least comparable to the difference
between prop-driven craft and jets, for every jump number increase.

If you're fiddling with the figures, a doubling of cost per unit
volume each jump number wouldn't be out of line IMO.  That could give
a jump engine cost for a 200 dton ship of 1.2 MCr for jump-1, up to
140 MCr for jump-6. These figures would be in CrImp, not local
currency.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:49:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:49:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sW9A-0001AK-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> on 4/1/02 10:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com
> wrote: > > I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that
> difficult to > build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate
> power > battery.  
> 
> I have yet to be convinced that such things will work, and be at all
> effective.  Particularly as the  strength of burst will be inversely
> proportional to the to the square of the distance.  Has anyone
> actually seen a demonstration where this works?  It should be rather
> easy to test.
> 
> Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical
> martial arts 'death touch'.

Look at the article about them in the New Scientist of July 1, 2000

or look at

www.infowar.com/mil_c4i/mil_c4i8.html-ssi 
www.dallas.net/~pevler/jec.htm 
www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/ news/RFWeap.htm 

or look up flux compressors

The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures 
I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius 
kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:50:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:50:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I keep looking at the p-H3 reaction, and although it has a 
high hurdle for starting, it yields more energy per unit 
fuel, and is aneutronic.

Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
doesn't seem to be that hard to find.

It looks like you could build a much smaller H3 fusion 
reactor, not just from the standpoint of overall yield per 
unit fuel, but also because no energy would be wasted 
accelerating neutrons (70% of the D-T cycle is neutron 
energy), and there would be no need to have neutron 
shielding.  I can almost see the argument that the only way 
to get a "tabletop" fusion reactor would be to run it on H3.

Looking for a handwave for H3 reactors...

If you were suddenly able to take a TL15 (CT High Guard) 
powerplant, and say that an H3 reactor for the same output 
had a displacement 70% less...  the fuel consumption would 
also be smaller...  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 21:57:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:57:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017784677.311.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> I keep looking at the p-H3 reaction, and although it has a 
> high hurdle for starting, it yields more energy per unit 
> fuel, and is aneutronic.
> 
> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.

Well, it has essentially no natural abundance on earth, since most helium on
earth, IIRC, comes from alpha decay.  Aside from this problem, D-He3 is
considered a promising second-generation fusion fuel (p-He3 is much harder to
pull off, and no more useful).
> 
> It looks like you could build a much smaller H3 fusion 
> reactor, not just from the standpoint of overall yield per 
> unit fuel, but also because no energy would be wasted 
> accelerating neutrons (70% of the D-T cycle is neutron 
> energy), and there would be no need to have neutron 
> shielding.  I can almost see the argument that the only way 
> to get a "tabletop" fusion reactor would be to run it on H3.

You'll still get a significant chunk of high energy radiation.
> 
> Looking for a handwave for H3 reactors...
> 
> If you were suddenly able to take a TL15 (CT High Guard) 
> powerplant, and say that an H3 reactor for the same output 
> had a displacement 70% less...  the fuel consumption would 
> also be smaller...  

TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.  One
assumes the neutron problems have been solved.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:04:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:04:52 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16sWO7-0004I7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:

> I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
> 
> (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> 
> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

In Jeopardy mode:

Heretics for 100: Who is Galileo

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:22:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:22:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] Sleeping In Starports, without Jimmy Hoffa
Message-ID: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.sleepinginairports.net/airports.htm

I remember (or my back remembers) sleeping in the airport at 
Frankfurt, waiting for a morning flight.

I suppose that the orbital facility might frown on this, 
considering that I would not only be taking up space, but 
breathing the air as well.

One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the 
price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial 
cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very 
much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be 
possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for 
mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the 
fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator 
runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to 
ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of 
the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.  The 
same device could also be used in recycling to return 
anything to its component atoms.

So, is that how the recycler works on the ship?  Is there 
some plasma separator in there, and it's all reduced to 
whatever the ship's environmental controls are interested 
in?  Dump the other ions into space?

Nice place for the Jimmy Hoffas of the future...

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:27:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:27:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16sW9A-0001AK-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B8CF6F3E.3427B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 1:49 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>> Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical
>> martial arts 'death touch'.
> 
> Look at the article about them in the New Scientist of July 1, 2000
> 
> or look at
> 
> www.infowar.com/mil_c4i/mil_c4i8.html-ssi
> www.dallas.net/~pevler/jec.htm
> www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/ news/RFWeap.htm
> 
> or look up flux compressors
> 
> The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures
> I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius
> kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.

Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find anything.  OK,
I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite terrorist building
these?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:43:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tim Little wrote:
>laning wrote:
> > In other words, reduce hull, computer, maneuver, and power plant
> > costs by probably two orders of magnitude but jump drives by only
> > one.  Which still doesn't work out quite as tidily as I'd like.
>
>That would start to eat into my suspension of disbelief,
>unfortunately.  I would expect a spaceship the size of a small mansion
>to cost at least a similar amount, and probably quite a bit more.
>After all, a planet-based house doesn't have to protect you against
>solar flares, vacuum, extremes of heat and cold, or move at thousands
>of kilometres per second.

Yes, but it's also the same size as a big quonset hut used as a storage 
shed and the hull doesn't need to cost a whole lot more.  In fact, given 
manufacturing capabilities of TTL 12+ industrial worlds, it may well cost 
less, complete with being airtight, radiation proof, and bracing sufficient 
to hold up against maneuvering stresses.

> > I would like it if you could commission say a really nice yacht for 3
> > megacredits or less.  Which is still a huge sum of money.
>
>Well, you can think of a 100 dton spaceship as being about the volume
>of 100-foot luxury yachts, which apparently have a price tag of a few
>million US dollars.  I don't think a spacecraft should cost a lot
>less; quite the reverse.
But the absolute cheapest spacecraft, with hardly yacht-like standards of 
creature comforts or other furnishings, costs about ten times what earth 
yachts cost.



> >  Weaponry and shield costs would remain unmodified.  Or a 200-ton
> > free trader for maybe just under 1 megacredit, built new.
>
>My figures get close to this *without* a jump drive, at 1.5 MCr.  I
>get jump-1 engine plus minimum fuel at 1.4 MCr, so getting close.

Which edition of Traveller rules are you going by?  I think we're talking 
apples and oranges to each other.

LBB 2 says 10 megacredits for the smallest jump drive.  I only have first 
edition (buggy) High Guard, and can't find _either_ of my MT Referee's 
Manuals.  My preferred ship construction rules are MT, since they're all 
together in one place, I like the fuel consumption better, I like being 
forced to balance both mass and volume, and I like Agility.  TNE's FFS goes 
way too far for me in complexity and is only rewarding for plucking certain 
components out of, not when building entire ships (IMHO).  T4's ship design 
rules...the less said, the better.  Although I intend to buy pieces of GT, 
ship construction isn't one of them.

I'd like to use MT rules, but don't have access to them.  IIRC, MT ship 
construction costs were very much in line with LBB 2 costs in most 
situations.  A little bit cheaper if you were going with minimum 
configurations, but not a lot.  I won't use the first edition High Guard in 
this discussion, since we all know they required major revision.  I think 
the standard free trader had major volume discounts etc. and MT sold it for 
something under 25 (?) megacredits because of its standardization.

Costs for the major components of an LBB 2 minimum configuration 200-ton 
ship follow.
200t hull:  8 megacredits
Type A power plant:  8 megacredits
Type A maneuver drive:  4 megacredits
Type A jump drive:  10 megacredits
Model 1 computer with no software:  2 megacredits
Total so far:  32 megacredits

No matter how cheap the hull for the above gets, the other major components 
are going to be a minimum of 24 megacredits.  <Doctor Evil voice> That's 
twenty-four _million_ of your Imperial credits. </Doctor Evil voice>  LOL.

Actually, LBB 2 sells a 200t hull at major discount for standardization, 
along with five other hull sizes.  "Custom" hull sizes are priced at 
cr100,000 per ton.

I'd like to see a 200-dt cost, for example, cr400,000, and the cost of the 
entire rest of a complete ship that's mostly just empty hull for cargo 
space add up to around another cr400,000.  Even then, a PC or group of PCs 
who are able to sell a ship for approaching 1 megacredit can almost run 
amok through the shopping lists for everything else they want.  I can see 
major discounts for buying/selling used, but I'm not comfortable going 
along with buying an old but still serviceable ship for one-tenth of 
original price.  If it's still serviceable, it shouldn't get lower than 
one-quarter of original price.  The only exception would be if a major 
component is likely to need replacing within the next year, that would 
greatly lower the cost.

I like the idea of hulls being the biggest expense in building a low-cost 
ship but I'm still looking at reducing their cost by an order of magnitude 
compared to LBB 2.  Once you buy a hull in decent condition, with a 
lanthanum jump grid, it is an attractive notion that the other components 
can be upgraded (or downgraded) over time.  Without requiring a sum equal 
to the GDP of some Third World countries.

I can rewrite prices to get pretty close to the effect I'm looking 
for.  But that would be inconvenient for my players.  The elegant (or is it 
lazy?) solution would be to tell players to just shift the decimal one or 
two places for each of the major starship components.  That way they could 
look at their rule book during the design sequence and not have to do a lot 
of mental gymnastics to figure out the impact of my house rule on prices.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:58:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:58:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CF6F3E.3427B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <E16sW9A-0001AK-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402175058.028900a0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn says, about EMP pipe bombs:

>Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find anything.  OK,
>I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite terrorist building
>these?

Off the top of my head:

What is its effectiveness against _shielded_ devices?

Terrorists usually like nice dramatic, visible results.  For immediate 
gratification, and for its propaganda value on the nightly television 
news.  EMPs are less than completely satisfying in this regard.

It's relatively new, give it more time.

ObTrav:  Most developed worlds will have good enough shielding in standard 
equipment that terrorists with EMP bombs can accomplish very little.

--Laning

PS  Wasn't an EMP bomb a plot device in the recent remake of 'Oceans Eleven'?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 22:53:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:53:24 -0600
Subject: [TML] GT starports and fuel
Message-ID: <3CAA3664.E63D6D4F@mail.cswnet.com>

Some ideas, questions, and thoughts to kick around....

First, A fix proposal:
Original text>
Page 72: "The average port should incorporate tankage at least equal to
.06 times the weekly displacement tonnage of starship served."

Additional text>
begining at the end of "served, times the distance in parsecs to the 
closest planetary system. The closest planetary system used for this
purpose may not be interdicted."

Second, the fuel blimp issue p73
Questions:
Could one use fuel blimps to pick up fuel from asteroid belts, assuming
that such belts had ice and the fuel blimp would be picking up the fuel
from a fuel mining station?

Text:"GM should ... assign a small craft cost of Mcr.001 to Mcr1
(averaging Mcr.01)per dt of total weekly starship traffic"

Why is the purpose have having a variation in cost for fuel blimps?
Why would it not be per dt of total weekly starship fuel used?

Three, conversion to CT/HG2
Anyone using GT:Starports for CT/HG2 purposes must remember to add
powerplant fuel to the port tankage requirement. 
Example: Arba has a weekly starship dt of 1050. For GT purposes,
assuming 3 day supply min., 1050*.06*2parsecs=126dt jumpfuel A full week
supply would be double this, 252dt. For CT/HG2, assume a minimum power
plant equal to minimum jump distance; in Arba's case, 2 parsecs.
1050*.01*2=21 for 4 weeks of operation, 10.5 for 2 weeks (enough for 
minimum jump, assuming no bumpy ride). This leaves us with a full weeks
supply for HG2 purposes of 262.5dt.

.01Cr for your thoughts...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:28:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:28:15 -0800
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402175058.028900a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8CF7E8F.34298%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 2:58 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Off the top of my head:
> 
> What is its effectiveness against _shielded_ devices?

How many targets are likely to be shielded?
> 
> Terrorists usually like nice dramatic, visible results.  For immediate
> gratification, and for its propaganda value on the nightly television
> news.  EMPs are less than completely satisfying in this regard.

Not necessarily.  There are sophisticated terrorists, particularly state
sponsored ones.  Think of the impact EMP could have on banks and credit
firms.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:32:03 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy Analysis
Message-ID: <20020402233203.5927.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I would assume (there I go with my assumptions again)
that anyone willing to commit piracy would also be
willing to skip. And it's much, much easier to just
skip.
END QUOTE

Except some of the things that make piracy hard such
as always on transponders and huge sensor arrays, also
make it hard to skip. After all there is no point
skipping if you can't sell your ship our make money
through trade or piracy or smuggling. It would be
easier to decalre yourself bankrupt. That is of course
if MyMines don't get hold of you.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:43:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 01:43:39 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <20020402200103.89CDB279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204030126270.19159-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Bruce Johnson writes:
>CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
>>1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to
>>remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible
>
>Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
>ridiculous as well.

No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H. erectus_
and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
showing up as early as that.

But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In
the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place
_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.

>Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens,
>H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.

_H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.

[*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.


Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:49:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204030126270.19159-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <B8CF8370.3429F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 3:43 PM, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen at rancke@diku.dk wrote:

> _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
> mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
> reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
> but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
> 
> [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.

Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are
interfertile.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:56:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:56:18 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #372 - 42 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020402170616.65F2C279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402155400.00a4c780@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 02 Apr 2002 08:03:56 -0800, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> 
wrote:

>I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
>
>(in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
>
>100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

*scratches head*  Knowing Galileo is geeky?  I thought that was called 
"educated."


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:05:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:05:43 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> In fact, given manufacturing capabilities of TTL 12+ industrial
> worlds, it may well cost less, complete with being airtight,
> radiation proof, and bracing sufficient to hold up against
> maneuvering stresses.

That's an argument for making *everything* cost less, not just
starships.  In fact, GT *does* make high-tech worlds a lot richer than
low-tech ones, so this matches pretty well.


> But the absolute cheapest spacecraft, with hardly yacht-like
> standards of creature comforts or other furnishings, costs about ten
> times what earth yachts cost.

I get the cheapest manned interplanetary spacecraft as costing about
50 kCr new at TL 10.  That's not a lot more than an expensive new car.


> Which edition of Traveller rules are you going by?  I think we're talking 
> apples and oranges to each other.

Probably.  I'm using GURPS Traveller and GURPS Vehicles, and dividing
jump drive costs by 10 (but no other changes).


> Although I intend to buy pieces of GT, ship construction isn't one
> of them.

The basic GURPS Traveller book has a modular starship construction
system, so you might find it hard to avoid :)


> Costs for the major components of an LBB 2 minimum configuration 200-ton 
> ship follow.
> 200t hull:  8 megacredits

Ouch!  Under GURPS Vehicles, I can get the cost down to under 0.02 MCr!
(if it doesn't have to land on a planet)

> Type A power plant:  8 megacredits

Double-ouch!  Much less than 0.1 MCr under GT (depending on other
ship's systems).

> Type A maneuver drive:  4 megacredits

Triple-ouch!  If you can accept low acceleration, this could be as low
as you like in most design systems.

> Type A jump drive:  10 megacredits

Yeah, about what GURPS Traveller uses.  By far the biggest expense of
a starship, but not relevant to a mere spaceship.

> Model 1 computer with no software:  2 megacredits

Quadruple-ouch!  You can get away with a few tens of thousands at most
for a bare redundant computer system under GURPS.


Wow, the LBBs really do hit your wallet *hard*!  I suggest using some
other design system if you want lower costs.  *Any* other design
system.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:07:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:07:30 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
Message-ID: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
But your troubles are only just *beginning* -- their
cargo manifest includes 10 dtons of live penguins ...
END QUOTE

PC's on a derelict free trader:
PC1: "Hmmm, blood everywhere but no bodies"
PC2: "The only thing on the manifest is penguins, yet
the cargo bay is empty"
PC3: "Who would slaughter an entire ships crew for
penguins?"
PC2: "They also took the small craft"
PC1: "Whats that noise?"
PC3: "What noise?"
PC1: "Sounded like flapping of some kind"
PC2: "Lets get back to the ship"
PC1: "Okay lets go. <speaking into com> Hey Samantha,
light up the drives where out of here"
<No response>
PC1: "Samantha?, do you read?"
PC2: "Hey wheres Jimmy?"
PC1: <Spinning around to search for Jimmy> "Jimmy,
jimmy?"
<END RECORDING>

James







=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:08:08 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #372 - 42 msgs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402155400.00a4c780@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <B8CF87E8.342AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/2/02 3:56 PM, Kelly St.Clair at kellys@efn.org wrote:

>> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
> 
> *scratches head*  Knowing Galileo is geeky?  I thought that was called
> "educated."

It's even in the digest:

"When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:16:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:16:28 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
Message-ID: <20020403001628.32715.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

Speaking of villians with english accents reminds me
of a scene from Buffy:the vampire slayer. The english
librarian nearly gets killed by a demon and somebody
says:
"I bet your whole life flashed before your eyes, cup
of tea, cup of tea, nearly got shagged, cup of tea"

ObTrav: Sneaky intelligence agents have french
accents, even if they are Zhodani ;) Speaking of which
what would a Zhodani accent be comparable too?

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:28:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:28:43 PST
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204010842.AAA08687@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20402.152843.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>How difficult is it to steal a starship IYTU?  What does canon say on =
>>this?
>
> Canon says little that I know of.  Generally, I assume it's hard.
>
>>Some parameters here:  I'm not talking about hijacking a ship, nor am I =
>>talking about ship theft incidental to piracy.
>>
>>Rather, I'm asking about the difficulties involved in stealing a =
>>starship that is grounded, docked, or otherwise parked.
>>
>>It seems to me the problem can be considered as four separate issues:

>>3.  Entering the vessel.
>>
>>Knocking does no good, there's no one inside to let you in. <g> =20
>>
>>How do starships determine who to admit?  Whoever holds the key?  =
>>Voiceprints?  Biometrics?  Passwords?  Some combination?  Given =
>>sufficient time, can you get in with a crowbar (doubtful) or a cutting =
>>torch (probably)? =20
>
> For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't get
> in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
> send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
> do the ship much good, however.

Also, it can't be *too* hard. there will be lots of situations when the
crew wants to get inside *fast*, or they may be a bit "damaged" or
"incapacitated". Or both.

Entry should be merely difficult enough to dissaude *amatuers*. Pros
will get in anyway, so the extra efforts isn't really justifiable in
terms of cost/benefit. 

>>Having forced your way in what active countermeasures do you have to =
>>defeat?  Does the ship send combat bots?  Does the environmental system =
>>become hostile?  Does an anti theft program deliberately destroy the =
>>Jumpdrive's Handwavium crystals, rendering the j-drive useless?
>
> Most likely, none of the above; the ship yells for help and goes into 
> lockdown mode.  Paranoid owners could easily equip the ship with kill
> switches in a few critical concealed junctions.

"Mantrap" type defenses (ie possibly injurious or lethal defenses not
under human control) are a great way to get yourself in *big* trouble
at least in most of the civilized world now. 

As an example, while many jurisdictions say that you can shoot an
intruder who invades your home while you are inside, those same
jurisdictions will be all over you for setting a beartrap when you
aren't home.

The Imperium may be looser about this, but I wouldn't count on it too
far. 

Also, do you *really* want to risk getting killed if there's a bug in
those automated defenses?

>>4.  Establishing vessel control.
>>
>>Having entered and defeated contermeasures, how do you get the starship =
>>to respond to your commands?  When you plop down on the pilot's couch =
>>what do you have to do to fire up the grav plates and maneuver drive?  =
>>Again, is there a key?  Biometrics?  PIN numbers?  How much trouble =
>>would there be in performing the starship analog of a hot-wire job?
>
> For higher tech ships, most likely you're defeating biometrics, plus a
> rather smart robot brain.  Unless you can steal startup information from
> the owner, most likely you're talking hours or days of work, particularly
> if kill switches have been installed.

Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...

But the biggest problem with stealing a starship on the ground will be
getting away. 

At all but the smallest ports, it'd be rather like trying to steal an
airliner from an airport, or a large ocean going vessel from a port.
The tower or the portmaster is going to want to know why you are making
an unscheduled departure. And if you don't have good answers, the Coast
Guard or Air Guard will be there in a hurry.

Stealing a orbit capable vessel (shuttle, etc) would likely be easier.
More like stealing small yacht or a small planes. Way too many of them
and they don't follow schedules. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 00:38:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:38:10 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>

> From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
> Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's
> kind of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not doing
> any more jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the
> character becomes motivated to take this one, last job.

In fact it's such a "classic bit" that I am considering playing it as a solo
game.

Unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable mission!  : (

I've got a couple of ideas about how to run it, though.  They might be of
interest to the other solo players on the list.

I'm thinking of having a list of possible "patrons", and not deciding which
is actually responsible until my character goes through the exercise of
finding out.  I might also have a set of contacts and potential allies, who
have to be approached and brought into the mission.  All of this takes time,
and possibly travel, and may not be successful.  There will also be other
factions interfering - again, these would be anonymous until identified the
hard way.  There would be some "just plain random" encounters as well.

The idea would be lots of paranoia.  Who is that that is tailing you?  Were
those thugs in the alley working for the other side, or were they just
thugs?  Who were the guys with the plasma guns that blew them away?

Of course there would have to be a list of mapped locations, with some
related NPCs.

Success would come from mobilising your own possible assets, finding out who
else is in the game, thwarting their plans, and working towards your own
devastating exercise in turning the tables on the jerks blackmailing you.

The plot itself would be a McGuffin hunt, shaped by "just in time" random
generation, plus incidents of "a man with a gun enters the room".  It could
be hopelessly convoluted and pointless, or it could be The Maltese Falcon.
Or The Millenium Falcon.

Now all I need is the time and energy to develop these ideas...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:12:07 EST
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7@aol.com>

--part1_ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power
biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.  If the
security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.
 
   Hmmm...A goofy idea just occured to me. Someone outside in their suit 
could manually crank open this small access plate that'd allow him to place 
his head inside. His helmet's visor could then be opened (by servos?) so he 
could do face-to-scanner interaction with the ship, and thus, get the ship to 
open the hatch. Try to fake out the computer and you suddenly discover your 
head is inside a guillotine. Sure wouldn't like to be there when the computer 
decides to acquire a glitch in its programming :)
  -Ken-

"You are born with the yearning arrow, my Glynna.  It is not a happy thing
to possess... It points to the stars, and when it cannot reach them, it falls 
back to pierce your heart."
    - Wind (Isobelle Carmody, "Darkfall")
    




--part1_ff.15ff1fb0.29dbb0e7_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
<BR>intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power
<BR>biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit. &nbsp;If the
<BR>security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
<BR>vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
<BR>other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.
<BR> </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Hmmm...A goofy idea just occured to me. Someone outside in their suit could manually crank open this small access plate that'd allow him to place his head inside. His helmet's visor could then be opened (by servos?) so he could do face-to-scanner interaction with the ship, and thus, get the ship to open the hatch. Try to fake out the computer and you suddenly discover your head is inside a guillotine. Sure wouldn't like to be there when the computer decides to acquire a glitch in its programming :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">"You are born with the yearning arrow, my Glynna. &nbsp;It is not a happy thing
<BR>to possess... It points to the stars, and when it cannot reach them, it falls 
<BR>back to pierce your heart."
<BR>    - Wind (Isobelle Carmody, "Darkfall")</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:16:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:16:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CF7E8F.34298%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402175058.028900a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402195900.00a95950@pop.wizard.net>

At 03:28 PM 4/2/02 -0800, you wrote:
>on 4/2/02 2:58 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
>
> > Off the top of my head:
> >
> > What is its effectiveness against _shielded_ devices?
>
>How many targets are likely to be shielded?
Government property and some industrial/commercial stuff.

I guess one of the best targets for the determined Luddite with an EMP bomb 
(hmm, is that an oxymoron?) would be MAE EAST.  I doubt it's shielded well 
enough.


> >
> > Terrorists usually like nice dramatic, visible results.  For immediate
> > gratification, and for its propaganda value on the nightly television
> > news.  EMPs are less than completely satisfying in this regard.
>
>Not necessarily.  There are sophisticated terrorists, particularly state
>sponsored ones.  Think of the impact EMP could have on banks and credit
>firms.
Yeah, I know.  :-<

At the risk of offending or jangling someone's nerves, those people still 
seem to prefer driving airliners full of avgas into the World Trade Center 
over something that invisibly makes machines stop working.  Partly for 
propaganda as stated above, but also because I think bin Laden and the 
hijackers who did those acts are sick pukes and get their jollies in sick ways.

Lest anyone think I am asserting that the very nature of terrorists makes 
us safe from any of them ever trying an EMP attack, I don't.  In fact, I 
think it is inevitable.  Just as I thought crashing a hijacked airliner 
into the Pentagon or White House or Capitol dome has been inevitable since 
it first occurred to me sometime...sometime around when the first three 
LBBs were published.  Not that there's any connection between the 
two.  It's just that even perfectly innocent people were dreaming up such 
things 25 years ago, and it turns out someone should have been taking those 
stray ideas much more seriously.

If the Gruppenfuhrer for Fatherland Security, er um I mean the Director of 
Homeland Security, ever gets around to it then he should already be pushing 
for hardening key governmental and commercial facilities and infrastructure 
like our power grid.  And looking for ways to trace sales of the rarer 
components required for assembling an EMP bomb capable of affecting a large 
area.

See guys?  Living in undefended New Zealand has its advantages.  All you 
have to do is worry about what to do with all that sheep dung and 
wool.  The folks in the States have to worry about junk like this.

Ever the tenacious one, I seek an ObTrav.  The Ine Givar come to mind, and 
what might their history be with successful and less than successful 
attempts at terror attacks?  Including what they may or may not have tried 
with EMP bombs and it went if they did.  We already know of that unpleasant 
nuclear thing.

--Laning (who often wonders if the National Security Agency in the US is 
driven buggy trying to figure out how to deal with the content that gamers 
put on the Internet)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:23:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:23:55 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1017712238.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8d0082a2e41@[143.232.119.186]>

On rule of thumb in security is that the hard you make it for 
unwarranted intrusion, the harder you make it for authorized people 
(you can't wear gloves for the thumb print, a cold alters your voice, 
etc.)

In some ways you can claim an entry code is the most secure (you can 
have the computer detect people trying to cycle through all the 
possible combinations), but in the end anything will be bypassible if 
you try hard enough.

Now starships are valuable, and there seems to be examples of people 
leaving them unattended, so I would guess the security to prevent 
intrusion would be high enough that it would be take a lot of effort 
to get in.  The crew will have to accept difficulties in getting in. 
That assumes the ship is unattended.  If there is crew on board, the 
security will be much lighter, just enough to keep someone from 
stolling on board.

I doubt security internally would be that great since the main goal 
will be to keep unauthorized people from wandering around and you 
don't want to obstruct a crewman in a hurry.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:26:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:26:08 +0200
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204022150.DFH03688@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020403012608.08423dc6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.

Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:29:05 +0200
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
> reprinted in various places.

I Google'd around, but all I could find was webpages mentioning it. It
would seem that it is available in various paper reprints, but not on the
web. Sad...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:31:13 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020402.173115.-2657.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:12:07 EST MurfNMurf@aol.com writes:
>
>    Hmmm...A goofy idea just occured to me. Someone outside in their 
suit  could manually crank open this small access plate that'd allow him 
to place  his head inside. His helmet's visor could then be opened (by 
servos?) so he  could do face-to-scanner interaction with the ship, and
thus, get  the ship to  open the hatch. 

Open the pod bay doors Hal.

I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now.

Hal, open the pod bay doors.

I'm sorry Dave.

HAL! 

Yes Dave.

Hal, I've got to go to the bathroom!

I'm sorry Dave



..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:28:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:28:50 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
References: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>

At 4:20 AM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example. 
>Paying passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them 
>through the passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger areas 
>of the ship.  Each keycard is unique to each passenger, and so the 
>same card gets them into their own private cabin.  Crew will have 
>similar cards, that give them more freedom, and exactly how much and 
>which greater freedoms would depend on the crew member's billet.

I really don't see the crew needing card to move about the ship. 
That is going to get old in a hurry, could be a problem in an 
emergency, and is unecessary.

In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go 
where they shouldn't.  You wouldn't actually lock things unless they 
were particularly sensitive or valuable or someone had leasure to get 
into somplace they shouldn't (like an isolated closet).  This is 
similar to what ships use today.

-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:37:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:37:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <20402.152843.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204010842.AAA08687@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>

The esteemed Leonard Erickson wrote, including quotes from Texas Redshift:
> > For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't get
> > in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
> > send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
> > do the ship much good, however.
>
>Also, it can't be *too* hard. there will be lots of situations when the
>crew wants to get inside *fast*, or they may be a bit "damaged" or
>"incapacitated". Or both.
>
>Entry should be merely difficult enough to dissaude *amatuers*. Pros
>will get in anyway, so the extra efforts isn't really justifiable in
>terms of cost/benefit.
I agree but only a little bit.  The penalty when you do lose a ship (and 
probably some lives at the same time) is very large.  Typically hundreds of 
millions.  Yes, it is a touchstone of security that no security system is 
perfect, and you shouldn't spend excess effort on attempting to perfect 
your security beyond a point that is appropriate to your degree of risk and 
the cost if security fails.  Even one fat trader or passenger liner lost is 
going to drive everyone's insurance rates through the roof and may risk 
putting the insurer financially on the ropes.  If nobody else does, then 
insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security 
measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time 
and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.

The military will probably take a very different approach.  They'll rely on 
numerous armed crewmembers and armed ships in the area, and not bother with 
all the automated stuff.  The personnel and other vessels have to be there 
anyway, it isn't like it costs them extra.

> > Most likely, none of the above; the ship yells for help and goes into
> > lockdown mode.  Paranoid owners could easily equip the ship with kill
> > switches in a few critical concealed junctions.
>
>"Mantrap" type defenses (ie possibly injurious or lethal defenses not
>under human control) are a great way to get yourself in *big* trouble
>at least in most of the civilized world now.
I agree this will be a problem, but the Traveller universe's legal 
standards are not the same as the USA's.  As we all have reminded ourselves 
in the past during other discussions.  I did allude in my own earlier post 
to liability insurance possibly being voided by installation of security 
hardware capable of inflicting physical harm.  Even my trick with the grav 
plates may be rather expensive to get insurance for.  (Personally, I'd want 
it anyway, just not in sleeping quarters.)  IMTU, a ship without valid 
insurance finds itself unable to get permits for travelling most places in 
the Imperium.  Starport authorities don't want them around, booking agents 
won't want to sell passenger tickets for them, etc.

Oh, I'm not sure that the phrase "kill switches" was supposed to mean 
mantrap defenses.  I think it may have meant disabling critical ship's 
systems.  Perhaps a triphammer smashes the zuchai crystals.  <G>


>As an example, while many jurisdictions say that you can shoot an
>intruder who invades your home while you are inside, those same
>jurisdictions will be all over you for setting a beartrap when you
>aren't home.
>
>The Imperium may be looser about this, but I wouldn't count on it too
>far.
>
>Also, do you *really* want to risk getting killed if there's a bug in
>those automated defenses?
Few will, so even if they're able to obtain insurance and overcome the 
other issues, the minute someone points out to the risk to them of being 
hoist by their own petard, most owners/captains will drop the idea.

>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
>someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
>attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...
I see we've met some of the same player characters.  :->


>But the biggest problem with stealing a starship on the ground will be
>getting away.

Yes.  Exactly.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:34:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:34:42 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204030134.DFP01107@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite 
>terrorist building these?
>--

You have me there.  I think that there are a fair number of 
people on this list who are capable of manufacturing a flux 
compression generator, and a vircator (or obtaining something 
like it).

None of the technology involved in making such a device is 
restricted in the US other than the explosives.

It reminds me of a railgun in reverse, except you have an 
explosive driving the short back down the gun, and the power 
has nowhere to go except into a smaller and smaller area.  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:36:04 -0800
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
In-Reply-To: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]>

In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would 
tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary 
arrays.....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:40:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:40:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204030140.DFP01461@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>How many targets are likely to be shielded?

The literature I've been reading says that if your equipment 
is not completely enclosed in a Faraday cage, and you're 
inside the effective radius, your equipment is toast.

Antennae and metal cables that protrude outside the cage, or 
fiber cables that go through metal conduits will act as a 
waveguide if the bomb uses microwaves.

Think of the kind of shielding that was necessary for 
shielding against nuclear EMP.  The conventional EMP bomb has 
two advantages: longer pulse time and tunable frequency (by 
design).
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:41:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:41:44 -0600
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com> <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>


"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
> In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
> tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
> arrays.....

Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:46:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:46:50 -0500
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <20020403001628.32715.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402203829.027db060@pop.wizard.net>

James asks:
>ObTrav: Sneaky intelligence agents have french
>accents, even if they are Zhodani ;) Speaking of which
>what would a Zhodani accent be comparable too?

People who use the "zh" sound a lot?  Perhaps they are all French, since 
typically the letter J is pronounced as a zh sound en Francais.  Wargamers 
being the lot we typically are, it is hard to keep them from sinking into 
Monty Python and the Holy Grail shtick whenever French accents come up, 
however.  That is not desirable.

I'm drawing a blank for "zh" speakers.  Places that are vaguely middle 
eastern or central asian come to mind for some reason, but nothing specific.

I've always _wanted_ to give my Zhos accents, so this is definitely a 
worthwhile thread if we can derive an answer.

OTOH, it's silly to imagine that all people in a star-spanning empire have 
the same accent.  I mean, we can't even get all people on Terra to have the 
same accent.  There are hundreds of languages here, often extremely 
different from each other.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:45:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:45:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204030145.DFP01794@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>See guys?  Living in undefended New Zealand has its 
>advantages.  All you have to do is worry about what to do 
>with all that sheep dung and wool.  The folks in the States 
>have to worry about junk like this.
>

Well, they do have to worry about their government going 
silly on them.  That, and there's a story about a coffee 
roaster who was forced to stop roasting coffee at all hours 
(seems the neighbors didn't like the smell).

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:57:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:57:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>

>Tim Little, after comparing GURPS ship construction costs to LBB 
>construction costs, says:
>Wow, the LBBs really do hit your wallet *hard*!  I suggest using some
>other design system if you want lower costs.  *Any* other design
>system.

Actually, all the nonGURPS Traveller ship construction rules will produce 
results _much_ closer to the LBB prices than to GURPS prices.  And from 
what I've skimmed in the GURPS rules, I'd rather not switch to them, 
thanks.  I like MT ship building.

I think the original idea behind such expensive ships was to avoid having a 
Jetsons future where everyone can drive the family car to another planet 
for a weekend jaunt.  They wanted to have put high, but not impossibly 
high, barriers to frequent travel between star systems.  Otherwise there's 
no reason to believe that each the civilizations on each planet will remain 
distinctly different from each other after 1,100 years of being in the same 
Imperium and rubbing elbows all the time.

If you want worlds to have truly unique and _alien_ differences from each 
other, then you have to make travel between worlds be rare.   Which also 
makes the traveller (our intrepid player character) herself be rare and 
special.  That adds to escapist pleasure of roleplaying.

And I buy into all that, I do.  But I think we won't significantly alter 
traffic levels if we make ships hugely cheaper but still the province only 
of the very wealthy, a well funded corporation, or a government.  In fact, 
I am suspicious that canonical ship construction is so expensive that it 
can't properly account for the numbers of trade vessels that are required 
to support the massive trade going on between developed worlds.  Not that 
I've crunched any numbers, mind you.  Just talking through my...hat.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:05:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:05:35 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402205809.027d9ba0@pop.wizard.net>

At Alan Bradley quoted and wrote:
> > From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
> > Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's
> > kind of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not doing
> > any more jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the
> > character becomes motivated to take this one, last job.
>
>In fact it's such a "classic bit" that I am considering playing it as a solo
>game.
>
>Unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable mission!  : (
>
>I've got a couple of ideas about how to run it, though.  They might be of
>interest to the other solo players on the list.
I'm interested.  Especially if you can come up with practical ways for the 
bad guys to throw some real surprises at you.  Maybe all those with 
interest in solo play should write our own interactive scripts to post on 
Web sites and then go play on each other's Web sites?

(I'm definitely interested in seeing how successful a game design the new 
NeverWinter Nights will be.  And then applying that to other genres besides 
the Tolkien-cloned D&D games.  Like, science-fiction role-playing 
games.  The basic concept of anyone with a computer and network connection 
being able to tailor their own game world to their own game server and 
leave it up for other players is an interesting one.  EverQuest for 
Everyman, kind of thing.)

Keep us posted on your progress, please, Alan.

--Laning
"I'm leavin'....on a jet plane
  Don't know when I'll be back again
  Oh, babe
  I hate to go"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:16:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:16:20 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <200204030216.DFQ00018@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>If you want worlds to have truly unique and _alien_ 
>differences from each other, then you have to make travel 
>between worlds be rare.   Which also makes the traveller 
>(our intrepid player character) herself be rare and 
>special.  That adds to escapist pleasure of roleplaying.
>

I've recently come to the same conclusion, and the main 
handwave that I use is that there is a maximum size jump 
drive that can be built at each TL, and therefore a maximum 
size ship (regardless of how much cash you have).

Having re-read the Kinunir (I know, I know..) they talk about 
one of the ships in the class not being able to reach its 
full jump potential.  I therefore like the idea that you can 
build to a jump number, but whether or not you get it 
consistently with every ship in the class is something else.  
This means that a military ship may go through several refits 
in order to achieve its potential.  Reminds me of some 
fighter aircraft (the F-14 springs to mind) that didn't get 
decent engines until later in their useful life.  And some 
started with engines that were positively lethal.

I know that there are a lot of people who like the big spinal 
mounts, but I've reduced the maximum tonnage of ships to a 
fairly linear plot from 5000 tons at TL 9 to 20,000 tons at 
TL 15 (CT/HG).  I'm also assuming that the larger the ship, 
the more likely that the jump drive will be problematic.  
This explains the use of relatively small ships (200 and 400 
ton) despite the fact that with either HG or MT, much larger 
ships should completely Microsoft, I mean, replace all 
smaller vessels.

Also, I believe (John The Heretic) that abusing your jump 
drives leads to damage that is never really undone.  
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:17:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:17:46 -0600
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <001f01c1da40$0a82f040$2c5d8690@computer>
References: <20020402064409.B8250279FA@mail.travellercentral.com> <001f01c1da40$0a82f040$2c5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <dhpkauca8tq85ip65jgf2n884na681gjhc@4ax.com>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:14:25 +1000, "Alan Bradley"
<abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:

>> From: JR Holmes=20
>> This is when you have the player characters' past catch up to them.
>> There are any number of good movies/stories about the one-time hero
>> (or villan) who tried to settle down and live a normal life, but
>> sooner or later his past catches up to him.  One well-done recent
>> example was Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven.
>>=20
>> =3D46rom a movie standpoint, Alan's comfortable enclave would become =
part
>> of the motivation for a return to adventuring.  Either the enclave is
>> destroyed by the villans trying to find our heroes, or the enclave
>> becomes a "hostage" to ensure their cooperation.
>
>You evil naughty man...

And you wouldn't do the the same?

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:30:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:30:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>

Jens Rydholm quoted then opined:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been
> > reprinted in various places.
>
>I Google'd around, but all I could find was webpages mentioning it. It
>would seem that it is available in various paper reprints, but not on the
>web. Sad...

Sad?  Not if you talk to Harlan Ellison.  It's another intellectual 
property debate.  Artists and other creators have no capitalist incentive 
to share their work if it can be freely copied.  And, like any other 
property, they feel it's only fair that they be able to bequeath to their 
heirs.  Harlan is quite adamant about passing his IP rights (and royalties) 
down to his daughters.  He's hardly alone.  And anyone on the list who is 
still collecting royalties of some kind on their own published material 
takes more than a theoretical interest, I suppose.

I am on both sides of the fence (I'm like Jeremy the Nowhere Man in 'Yellow 
Submarine' or the Scarecrow in 'The Wizard of Oz').  I sympathize with 
Harlan Ellison and others.  I also feel strongly that sharing knowledge has 
less value to the human race if the knowledge is only shared with those who 
can pay for it.  The Internet is a great democratizer of knowledge 
sharing.  (It's more a socialist thing than a democracy thing, but it's not 
generally acceptable in the States to express it that way.)

I love usenet and mailing lists and even the WWW and email.  Everyone can 
share all their information freely!  And some of it is even accurate!  And 
I love that writers can make a living by writing!  Uh-oh, wait, I have a 
problem here.

What mechanisms are in place within the Imperium, or in other entities, for 
owners of IP rights to protect them against abuse on other planets?  I 
think the TML has tried to delve into this in the past, but always kind of 
veered away.  Or if we covered it, I was on hiatus from the TML due to 
traffic levels and shortage of time.  Certainly, it is not a condition of 
membership in the Imperium for member worlds to enforce any such 
mechanisms.  Does the Imperium still play a large role?  Perhaps backing a 
voluntary, but widely adhered to, accord or convention on IP rights?  Is 
part of the extensive data traffic between member worlds is updates to 
databases that track book sales, TriD sales, etc.?  In contract disputes 
over royalties where the parties to the dispute reside on different worlds, 
how are they resolved?

By the way, Jens, have you read Hal Clement's 'Mission of Gravity'?  A 
great example of intelligent alien life forms evolving on a world extremely 
different from Terra.  A just plain extreme world, in fact.  Clement opens 
the hood and lets us peer into a lot of the alien building he does.  The 
book's a classic, in fact.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:00:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:00:59 PST
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204011745.g31Hji001663@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20402.180059.2g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> As I've mentioned before, I've been toying w/ the idea of
> inertial suppression as a means of fast accelleration in an
> sf-rpg I'm *slowly* putting together w/ the help of some
> friends. However, there's some conflict over how to achieve
> this (I can email two articles which hint at the scientific
> premise to anyone who's interested). There's also the problem
> of unintended consequences. Since inertial suppression also
> exists in Traveller (so that ships can accellerate at 6G
> w/o squashing their crews), it might be a good idea to
> consider these consequences for a bit.

No. Inertial *compensation* exists in Traveller. Inertial
*suppression/neutralization* is a different matter.

The effects in Traveller could be simply created by an additional
component to the ship's artifical gravity that is equally and opposite
to the acceleration from the drive. The inertial mass of the contents
of the ship is unchanged, but a counteracting force is applied
uniformly to them

True inertia neutralization (or suppression) changes F=ma to F=kma
where k is a constant (or variable) determined by the degree of
neutralization. 

In effect, you are changing the inertial mass of the objects in
question. If this was what was happening in Traveller, then you
couldn't throw a ball across a compartment. As soon as you quit
pushing, the air resistance would stop it. 

BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
playing "grav pong" with hijackers.

> Basically, if I read him right, what he appears to be saying is that
> if you lower inertia in a given space by 99%, people in that area will
> have much more strength than they're used to having, because the
> chemical reactions going on in their bodies which generate energy
> will still be generating as much energy, but for a much smaller
> apparent mass, meaning that they'll be able to perform extrodinary
> feats (and quite possibly hurt themselves), and that the only way
> around this is to downscale everything else, which generates a
> very strange and inconsistent reality.
>
> What do other people think about this argument?

Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects. 

There's also the question as to whether or not gravitational mass and
inertial mass are the same thing. Last I heard, experiments had shown
that they were the same to with 1 part in something like 10^12, but
it's still an *assumption* that they are the same thing.

But assuming that you can live thru the process, then it'd be best to
ignore all the effects at the sub-molar level (ie molecular and lower).

This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:15:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:15:59 PST
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204011749.DDD03964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20402.181559.4K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
> effects when you modify Planck's constant.

Starting with minor things like matter as we know it not being possible
if you tweak it more than a *tiny* bit.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:17:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:17:51 PST
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204020013.g320DTU02643@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20402.181751.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> I'm not a physicist, but I bet you get a lot of strange 
>> effects when you modify Planck's constant.
>
> Not talking about modifying Planck's constant. Only talking about
> modifying inertia. Tim introduced the idea of modifying Planck's
> constant as a device to keep strangeness from happening when
> inertia is modified, but I'm not 100% sure that inertial suppression
> would necessarily result in strangeness in the first place. Trying
> to get some thoughts on the matter.

The attraction between particles (molecules, etc) would be the same.
But their (effective) mass would be lower. Making the accelerations due
to the forces higher. Which would give the *effect* of making the
forces stronger.

That's why I said that it'd be best to just handwave all the stuff at
the molecular and lower layers. Dealing with the effects at the "gross"
(molar) level is gonna be hairy enough.

The only writers that have ever dealt with this that I can recall are
E.E. Smith in the Lensman series, and one small section of one of
Heinlein's Future History stories (the one that introduces the Howard
Familes, and which I cannot recall the title of)-:

I do like one idea of Smith's. Namely that you retain your original
velocity vector while "free". If you are doing partial neutralization,
things would get messier, but they'd still be doable. 

This provides a nice complication in that when you restore inertua, you
have to worry about which direction that vector point. If it's aimed at
a nearby solid object, Ouch!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 01:39:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:39:06 -0700
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> or look up flux compressors 
> 
> The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures 
> I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius 
> kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.
> 
> Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find
> anything.  OK, I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite
> terrorist building these? --

That's a very good question.  I've read speculation that they may 
have been used in some places, but I'd think the evidence would be 
pretty obvious (lots of fried computers).  At that point, I'm guessing 
that most terrorists want to see blood far more than lost data.

OTOH, I wonder if more some of the more hard-line 
environmentalist groups like Green Peace and Earth First know 
about these things, maybe I'll send them a link :)

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:42:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:42:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
 <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402213220.0287eec0@pop.wizard.net>

David Summers quoted me and wrote:
>At 4:20 AM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>>There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example. Paying 
>>passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them through the 
>>passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger areas of the 
>>ship.  Each keycard is unique to each passenger, and so the same card 
>>gets them into their own private cabin.  Crew will have similar cards, 
>>that give them more freedom, and exactly how much and which greater 
>>freedoms would depend on the crew member's billet.
>
>I really don't see the crew needing card to move about the ship. That is 
>going to get old in a hurry, could be a problem in an emergency, and is 
>unecessary.
I agree with your thesis expressed earlier that crew needs to be able to 
move about the ship on their duties unimpeded.  What I had in mind was 
keeping the passenger-only areas fenced off.  Crew will have to pass 
through access-control points entering and exiting passenger areas, but 
it's a pretty low-level annoyance.  Just wave their Crew ID Badge in the 
general direction of the hatch.  It's probably clipped to their sleeve or 
collar.

>In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go where 
>they shouldn't.  You wouldn't actually lock things unless they were 
>particularly sensitive or valuable or someone had leasure to get into 
>somplace they shouldn't (like an isolated closet).  This is similar to 
>what ships use today.

I _tried_ to go where I wasn't allowed when I was aboard a cruise ship 
about fifteen years ago.  All the doors/hatches were locked.  Crew had keys 
for the doors they normally needed access to.  This was before electronic 
keys or crypto keys were common; I mean the crew had traditional keys.  A 
lot of doors were locked from the passenger side but not from the crew 
side.  Crew usually had to either knock to gain access from the passenger 
side, or go around the long way to somewhere they could enter.  Unsecured 
doors usually had a _lot_ of crew in the immediate vicinity.  If someone 
steals an ocean liner they can do a lot of damage, but if someone steals a 
starship they can potentially do far more than that.  I'd think starships 
have more safeguards than ocean liners.  IMTU.  YMMV.  :->

I like to envision ship security levels that make a player character think 
and work and plan really hard to succeed at gaining control of a ship's 
bridge and engineering.  But still keep it possible.  It should be rare and 
one of the proudest illegal achievements a player can brag of.  Most RPGers 
I've known are far too casual and impulsive to have a ghost of a chance at 
success.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:55:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:55:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20402.180059.2g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204011745.g31Hji001663@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215009.0283aec0@pop.wizard.net>

Leonard Erickson, in replying to JimV said:

>BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
>higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
>artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
>playing "grav pong" with hijackers.
Sounds like we see it the same way.  Although +6 gees to -6 gees in less 
than one second should be sufficient grav pong to deal with most hijackers.

I've always wondered at the canonical lack of ships capable of 
accelerations far greater than 6 gees.  We subject astronauts and fighter 
pilots to accelerations between 4 and 6 gees, so you'd think that high 
performance military aircraft would be capable of accelerating many gees 
faster than their internal grav compensation can handle.  They accelerate 
at 10 gees, have 6 gees of that compensated, and a "felt acceleration" of 4 
gees.

>Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
>things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects.

Yeah, it's way too messy a pandora's box for me to consider it seriously.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 02:59:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:59:49 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net> <p04330103b8d00a75b886@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20020403125949.A14872@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go
> where they shouldn't.

On one sea trip on a passenger ferry I went exploring the passenger
accessible areas, and ended up on the wrong side of a very impressive
looking "Authorized Personnel Only" sign hanging on a heavy chain for
emphasis.  The strange thing is, I never actually passed any such
signs to get to the wrong side of the chained-off region :)

I could easily see the same thing happening on a large passenger liner
in Traveller.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:04:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:04:30 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204030216.DFQ00018@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215722.02839ec0@pop.wizard.net>

>I know that there are a lot of people who like the big spinal
>mounts, but I've reduced the maximum tonnage of ships to a
>fairly linear plot from 5000 tons at TL 9 to 20,000 tons at
>TL 15 (CT/HG).  I'm also assuming that the larger the ship,
>the more likely that the jump drive will be problematic.
>This explains the use of relatively small ships (200 and 400
>ton) despite the fact that with either HG or MT, much larger
>ships should completely Microsoft, I mean, replace all
>smaller vessels.
>
>Also, I believe (John The Heretic) that abusing your jump
>drives leads to damage that is never really undone.

I like spinal mounts.  The combat advantages in fleet actions are so great 
that I think battles tend to go to whoever has the most spinal 
mounts.  Back when they were doing TCS tournaments at cons, I think that 
tended to be the consensus as well.

I like your ideas about jump number being a nominal spec that has to be 
worked at to achieve in the field.  But we need rules, man, rules.  I'm not 
sure I agree with the Microsoft theory of big ships eating little ships, 
but IMHO the canonical Traveller universe stretches the old credibility 
suspenders awfully far to have such a plethora of small merchant ships 
running around all the time instead of shipping being dominated by 5,000t 
and bigger vessels.  I'd be more inclined to agree with large shipping 
_corporations_ eating little ones.  Which is possibly a better description 
of what Microsoft does, anyway.

I am interested in permanent damage to jump drives when they are 
abused.  But again I need rules, man!  Exactly what constitutes 
abuse?  Exactly how do you determine the consequences of abuse?  How much 
of that damage can be repaired, and what is required to repair it?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:12:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:12:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
In-Reply-To: <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b8d0233486e4@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:41 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
>"David P. Summers" wrote:
>>
>>  In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
>>  tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
>>  arrays.....
>
>Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
>masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....

But the tags would be unforgeable based on the penguins DNA!  Clearly 
this would be justified based on the threat that penguins pose.  (How 
could the Imperium  claim to control their territory if penguins roam 
free?)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:12:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 19:12:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Reply Etiquette Flame (was: Galileo)
In-Reply-To: <20020403013707.22C1527A00@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402190656.00a4a160@mailhost.efn.org>

Todd Glenn wrote, in response to a post where I forgot to change the 
default subject (something I am normally very good about):

>It's even in the digest:
>
>"When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."

Nice of you to quote my entire message just to bitch about the subject 
line.  Especially when I'm one of those who does take care to trim his 
quotes, post below quoted material, not use Outlook or post MIME to the 
list, etc etc...

In closing, sir, you are invited to <biological function> yourself.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:21:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:21:11 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <3CAA7526.B59B63BA@mail.cswnet.com>

Timothy Little writes:
>Wow, the LBBs really do hit your wallet *hard*!  I suggest using some
>other design system if you want lower costs.  *Any* other design
>system.

Yeah, but what other design system lets you have...
[drum roll with trumpets]

		THE INFAMOUS ONE MAN SCOUT SHIP!

Besides, a real Traveller scoffs at mere Mcr's. Its the Tcr's
that we pay attention to...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:26:02 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <3CAA764A.60353DD6@mail.cswnet.com>

General Turokan writes:
>Open the pod bay doors Hal.

>I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now.

>Hal, open the pod bay doors.

>I'm sorry Dave.

>HAL! 

>Yes Dave.

>Hal, I've got to go to the bathroom!

>I'm sorry Dave

One [1] keyboard kill.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:25:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:25:14 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <200204030325.DFT00415@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says 

"I need rules, man"

OK.  Let's do this on the assumption that there is a maximum 
size of ship that can be sent through jump space at each TL.

Start at 1000 tons at TL 9 and work your way up to TL 15 (CT).

That's the first rule.  You go next.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:43:03 +1000
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
References: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001401c1dac2$798ed940$86b18b90@computer>

> From: John Groth 
> I don't know of kian stats in any game system.

<vague memory surfacing>

Try original (print) JTAS.

I can't check at the moment, alas.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:48:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:48:07 +1000
Subject: [TML] Robots, IYTU
Message-ID: <001501c1dac2$7cd48e60$86b18b90@computer>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>      The more robots deal with humans or operate within a general human
> setting, the more likely they'll be the upright, bipedal, anthromorphic
> robots of classic sci-fi.  A two-legged, vaguely human shaped, robot with
> arms and hands will be preferred as a steward or medic by most folks over
a
> metal box on treads with tentacles.  Robots with "hands" will also be able
> to use the same utensils and tools the rest of the crew uses.
>      Robots in industrial settings will be far less anthromorphic, in
those
> settings function will drive form.

There will be one category of robot that will be pseudo-biological - the
good old "companion" bot - servant, secretary, and sex-toy.

They don't have to be especially bright, or particularly able to pass for
human in social settings, so they aren't necessarily _hugely_ expensive.
They still will be toys for the wealthy, though.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:32:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:32:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <20020403001628.32715.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402222929.02df3008@192.168.0.1>

At 10:16 AM 4/3/2002 +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
>Speaking of villians with english accents reminds me
>of a scene from Buffy:the vampire slayer. The english
>librarian nearly gets killed by a demon and somebody
>says:
>"I bet your whole life flashed before your eyes, cup
>of tea, cup of tea, nearly got shagged, cup of tea"
>ObTrav: Sneaky intelligence agents have french
>accents, even if they are Zhodani ;) Speaking of which
>what would a Zhodani accent be comparable too?

Well...given the 'canon' cold war setup, the Zho would have Russian Accents.
That would make their Vargr allies Cubans (picture a Vargr in fatigues with 
a cigar and an AK-47 and a thick Spanish accent).
Hmmm...Sword Worlders would be the various Eastern European Warsaw Pact 
countries.
Your basic heavy handed eastern European accent.



----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:40:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:40:48 +1000
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net> <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net> <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403134048.A15012@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> I think the original idea behind such expensive ships was to avoid
> having a Jetsons future where everyone can drive the family car to
> another planet for a weekend jaunt.

Actually, they didn't really succeed :)

Even in non-GURPS versions of Traveller, there are much cheaper
spacecraft than starships, some of them capable of reaching Mars from
Earth in a day or so.  Granted, even there they are far more expensive
than an average Hyundai, but nowhere near the cost of a jump-capable
craft.


>  They wanted to have put high, but not impossibly high, barriers to
> frequent travel between star systems.  Otherwise there's no reason
> to believe that each the civilizations on each planet will remain
> distinctly different from each other after 1,100 years of being in
> the same Imperium and rubbing elbows all the time.

I think there is.  The time barriers suffice, if nothing else.  With
typically available jump drives, it takes *years* to get across the
Imperium.  Even if those drives were dirt cheap.

Furthermore, each planet has *drastically* different environmental
conditions and resources; much more different than say France is from
Antartica.  The economic drivers will be radically different in
various systems, and won't merge just because vehicles are cheap.

Even if travel between stars was absolutely free of charge, it still
takes at least a week or two to get to the nearest neighbouring
system.  That alone presents a social barrier to homogenisation even
within a subsector, let alone a sector or the Imperium as a whole.

This includes military homogenisation: A fleet of battleships at Core,
no matter how powerful, is no good against a tiny pack of Vargr ships
in the Spinward Marches.  So some areas have recent incursions by
foreigners, and large military forces for their population.  Other
areas have not seen a warship in action for generations, and receive
tenth-hand news 6 months old from the nearest conflict.  If they care.


Which brings up the next point: species differences.  Even among the
variants of humaniti, there are significant differences.  Then there
are the non-human sentient races, with their own thought processes,
customs, physical requirements and preferred cultures.  To say nothing
of the enormous variety of non-sentient natural wildlife present only
on a particular planet.

And you have political differences, which I don't think are likely to
disappear.  People will almost certainly retain differences in belief.
If interstellar travel is cheap that just makes it easier for members
of different cultures to move somewhere else rather than try to
integrate.


I'm sorry, I just don't see how making starships cheap erases all
these things that factor into making a local culture significantly
different from others.  More than that, I don't see how inflating the
cost of inter*planetary* spacecraft adds anything at all to the
variety within the Imperium, let alone differences outside it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:49:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:49:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402213220.0287eec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
 <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402040700.00a7da50@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402213220.0287eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <p04330106b8d02b8f7e5e@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:42 PM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>David Summers quoted me and wrote:
>>At 4:20 AM -0500 4/2/02, laning wrote:
>>>There should be heirarchical levels of security.  For example. 
>>>Paying passengers will have a keycard and password that gets them 
>>>through the passenger-only airlock and accesses the passenger 
>>>areas of the ship.  Each keycard is unique to each passenger, and 
>>>so the same card gets them into their own private cabin.  Crew 
>>>will have similar cards, that give them more freedom, and exactly 
>>>how much and which greater freedoms would depend on the crew 
>>>member's billet.
>>
>>I really don't see the crew needing card to move about the ship. 
>>That is going to get old in a hurry, could be a problem in an 
>>emergency, and is unecessary.
>I agree with your thesis expressed earlier that crew needs to be 
>able to move about the ship on their duties unimpeded.  What I had 
>in mind was keeping the passenger-only areas fenced off.  Crew will 
>have to pass through access-control points entering and exiting 
>passenger areas, but it's a pretty low-level annoyance.  Just wave 
>their Crew ID Badge in the general direction of the hatch.  It's 
>probably clipped to their sleeve or collar.

Well, some smaller ships have passenger areas in the middle of the 
ship and you have to pass through it to get from one end to the other.

If this isn't true, I think you might see some sort of basic restriction...

>
>>In many areas, you just post a sign and punish passengers who go 
>>where they shouldn't.  You wouldn't actually lock things unless 
>>they were particularly sensitive or valuable or someone had leasure 
>>to get into somplace they shouldn't (like an isolated closet). 
>>This is similar to what ships use today.
>
>I _tried_ to go where I wasn't allowed when I was aboard a cruise 
>ship about fifteen years ago.  All the doors/hatches were locked. 
>Crew had keys for the doors they normally needed access to.  This 
>was before electronic keys or crypto keys were common; I mean the 
>crew had traditional keys

OTOH, I was on a ship for a gambling cruise and the bridge, which was 
off the upper deck where the passengers went to sight see, wasn't 
locked (the reason you didn't go in there was the feeling that the 
people in there would object :-)

>I like to envision ship security levels that make a player character 
>think and work and plan really hard to succeed at gaining control of 
>a ship's bridge and engineering.

I think the crew will be their main obstacle.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:37:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:37:18 -0500
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402223515.02da9ec0@192.168.0.1>

At 06:39 PM 6/2/2002 -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> > or look up flux compressors
> > The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures
> > I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius
> > kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.
> > Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find
> > anything.  OK, I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite
> > terrorist building these? --
>That's a very good question.  I've read speculation that they may
>have been used in some places, but I'd think the evidence would be
>pretty obvious (lots of fried computers).  At that point, I'm guessing
>that most terrorists want to see blood far more than lost data.
>OTOH, I wonder if more some of the more hard-line
>environmentalist groups like Green Peace and Earth First know
>about these things, maybe I'll send them a link :)

They already have their own official terrorist wings, ELF & ALF (Earth 
Liberation Front & Animal Liberation Front) leading the FBI lists.

You probably don't want to have the FBI draw a line between you and them.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:54:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:54:45 -0500
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402225324.01f21ff0@mail.charter.net>

Loren had mentioned a Traveller specific version of the GURPS character 
generation software was being considered.

Is this project a go?  If so, when would it see the light of day?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
           http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:03:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:03:33 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com> <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <k9vkau413ehik68ii1a6tna2hhcq425icf@4ax.com>

On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 10:38:10 +1000, "Alan Bradley"
<abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:

>> From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
>> Or, less recently, Clint's character in Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.  It's
>> kind of a staple of heist and spy movies:  "I'm retired.  I'm not =
doing
>> any more jobs.  Go find somebody else."  But for whatever reason, the
>> character becomes motivated to take this one, last job.
>
>In fact it's such a "classic bit" that I am considering playing it as a =
solo
>game.
>
>Unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable mission!  : (
>
>I've got a couple of ideas about how to run it, though.  They might be =
of
>interest to the other solo players on the list.
>
><SNIP>
>
>Success would come from mobilising your own possible assets, finding out=
 who
>else is in the game, thwarting their plans, and working towards your own
>devastating exercise in turning the tables on the jerks blackmailing =
you.
>
>The plot itself would be a McGuffin hunt, shaped by "just in time" =
random
>generation, plus incidents of "a man with a gun enters the room".  It =
could
>be hopelessly convoluted and pointless, or it could be The Maltese =
Falcon.
>Or The Millenium Falcon.
>
>Now all I need is the time and energy to develop these ideas...

I find myself in the role of Mr. Movie.  For a pretty nasty story
along these lines, take a look at the movie "Commando".  Our hero is
blackmailed into taking on an assassination for the villians, but
escapes before the plane takes off for the destination.  He then has a
fixed amount of time to chase down villain minions, learn where the
major villain is hiding and rescue the hostage.  Not too much
opportunity for character development, but a good action story.  From
a gaming standpoint, the tracking and interrogation of the henchmen
and most of the fighting could be the solo adventure.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 03:28:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:28:33 -0600
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net> <p04330105b8d0233486e4@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3CAA76E1.BA4A2BC6@premier.net>


"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
> At 7:41 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
> >"David P. Summers" wrote:
> >>
> >>  In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
> >>  tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
> >>  arrays.....
> >
> >Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
> >masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....
> 
> But the tags would be unforgeable based on the penguins DNA!  Clearly
> this would be justified based on the threat that penguins pose.  (How
> could the Imperium  claim to control their territory if penguins roam
> free?)

Then the penguins merely graft a patch of non-penguin-waterfowl skin and
feathers to the tag attachment point (ideally waterfowl generally
engaged as tramp freighters or system defense birds), change the tag
code to suit the new DNA and proceed on their marauding ways.... ;-)

The struggle between measure and countermeasure is a never-ending one,
as neither side is likely to gain lasting superiority.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:26:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 20:26:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020402.202649.-8353.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:26:02 -0600 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
> General Turokan writes:
> >Open the pod bay doors Hal.
>  >I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now.
>  >Hal, open the pod bay doors.
>  >I'm sorry Dave.
>  >HAL! 
>  >Yes Dave.
>  >Hal, I've got to go to the bathroom!
>  >I'm sorry Dave
> 
> One [1] keyboard kill.
> 
> Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

Thanks Dan, my first keyboard kill scored.

Woooooooohooooooo!!

I guess I'm out of the Rookie status now.

Gee, how many more till I can earn Flight Officer?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:13:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:13:41 -0800
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <20020402194040.7979a578.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
 <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402201259.009ec960@mindspring.com>

At 07:40 PM 4/2/02 +0200, you wrote:
>Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
>food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
>predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
>for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world under
>the ice.

Jedi Jellyfish Under The Ice!  I love it!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets.
                                 - Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  2 23:44:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:44:29 +1000
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS That's just nasty...
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C178F5@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

From Paul:
I saw a special on the toob some time ago about these
two women who started a business cleaning up after the
police were done at murder scenes.  They contracted
either to the insurance co or mortgage co.  They would
go in and make a nasty place livable again.

Not my idea of fun employment.

From Me:
In Oz we have this funeral service that mostly employs female ex nurses
dressed in white. I forget their name (something like the white sisters -
but less Aryan than that). They figured that with emotions running high in
the immediate hours after a death that the ladies, who have skills in
calming people down, and who have come to collect the bodies, was a good
thing. I remember seeing an interview where the ladies would turn up and
relatives would be on the front lawn screaming over who was getting
'grandma's antique bed spread', and the ladies would have to calm things
down.  

I would think being on Highway patrol/Ambulance would be messed up. I
remember stats about suicides/depression amongst crews that regularly attend
road accidents being statistically aberrant (something like double their
less highway inclined colleagues). I think the some Police Services in Oz
roster members on attending road deaths for like only a month a year because
of this. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:45:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204030325.DFT00415@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402225752.027fbae0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon, that fiendish b*st*rd, wrote:
>laning says
>
>"I need rules, man"
>
>OK.  Let's do this on the assumption that there is a maximum
>size of ship that can be sent through jump space at each TL.
>
>Start at 1000 tons at TL 9 and work your way up to TL 15 (CT).
>
>That's the first rule.  You go next.


LOL!   :->

Umm, okay.

Canonically, the largest possible starship is 1,000,000 under CT LBB 5, and 
TL does not limit hull size itself.  Theoretical jump drive capacity goes 
to jump-2 at TL 11, then increases by one jump number for each TL increase 
after that.  TLs beyond TL 15 are still capped at jump-6 capacity.

You gave the largest standard-sized hull according to LBB 2 as the maximum 
size that be sent through jump space at TL 9.  For fun, let's give the 
largest hull that can be built in LBB 2 as the TL 10 limit.  That's 5,000 tons.

If it isn't rude, I'll skip ahead (may be more pleasantly viewed with 
fixed-width font):
TL 9     1,000 tons
TL 10    5,000 tons
TL 11   10,000 tons
TL 12   50,000 tons
TL 13  100,000 tons
TL 14  500,000 tons
TL 15  One million tons

This may confer additional large battle advantages in TCS to the side with 
a TL advantage.  Probably only small advantages at TL 12+.  Just so long as 
you can include a powerful spinal mount weapon, that should keep you in the 
running even if your opponent has a somewhat better spinal mount 
weapon.  Try to outnumber your enemy if you can't outclass him.

The larger ships will also have an armor advantage.  Reasonable people 
disagree over how significant armor is in TCS situations.

Only higher tech levels will be capable of using large planetoid hulls.

Let's see, the Imperial-average TL is 12.  If we assume that a significant 
number of Imperial naval vessels will be built and maintained at TL 12 
facilities, then the largest hull that they will be able to use for a 
starship is 50,000 tons.  50,000 tons times 13.5 meters^3 per ton means a 
volume of 675,000 cubic meters.  Which would mean a borg-like cube about 87 
meters per dimension.  Or a thousand meters long, by 27 meters high by 25 
meters wide.

A planetoid hull can use only 60,000 tons and the rest is "wasted" on 
structural integrity.  A buffered planetoid hull "wastes" 35%, so it would 
only be able to use 39,000 tons of its volume for ship components, cargo, 
and fuel.

Caveat:  I was going by first edition of LBB 5 - High Guard.  Second 
edition might have different numbers for hulls and jump capacities, but I 
doubt it.

Also, it bothers me that I'm adding another rule/table to keep track of 
during ship design.

Now for the thorny part.  What does one have to do to a ship to get it's 
full jump capability out of it?  Roll dice?  Spend more per ton of jump 
drive?  Install fancy computers?  Other?  And the details of implementing 
that.  Can the jump capability decline over time even though it has not 
been battle damaged and is being properly maintained?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 04:43:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:43:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS That's just nasty...
Message-ID: <200204030443.DFV01354@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hughes, Michael" says
>Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS That's just nasty...  
>To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
>
>I would think being on Highway patrol/Ambulance would be 
>messed up. I remember stats about suicides/depression 
>amongst crews that regularly attend road accidents being 
>statistically aberrant (something like double their
>less highway inclined colleagues). I think the some Police 
>Services in Oz roster members on attending road deaths for 
>like only a month a year because of this. 
>
"The Night Rider.  Remember him when you look up into the 
night sky..."
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:10:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:10:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
Message-ID: <200204030510.DFV03007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning <laning@wizard.net>  
<snip size limits>

I think that limiting people to smaller ships really gives us 
the "small ship" Traveller.  So...

>
>Now for the thorny part.  What does one have to do to a ship 
>to get it's full jump capability out of it? 

For the first ten jumps (shakedown), roll 10+ to achieve the 
design jump rating, DM Average Engineering Skill Level of 
crew, maximum DM 4.  You must use refined fuel for these 
calibration jumps.  Failure results in a jump reduced by 1 
parsec per point failed.  This means that shipyards have to 
have rescue/refuelling ships ready to save shakedown failures.

Average the performance over the shakedown, and round up.  
This is the true Jump rating.  Note that in some cases, the 
military will not accept delivery of a ship that takes enough 
fuel for Jump-4 to only do a Jump-3.

Straight rule -- ships displacing 5000 tons or less roll for 
shakedown on a 6+, not 10+. 

Remedy:  Replace the jump drives.  See how expensive this is 
getting?

>Can the jump capability decline over time even though it has 
>not been battle damaged and is being properly maintained?
>

On the misjump roll, in addition to CT DMs
-1 DM for every 10 years of drive age.
-1 DM for every hit on the Jump drives if repaired
-2 DM for every hit on the Jump drives not repaired (running 
with battle damage)
-1 DM for every prior slight or minor misjump, even if 
repaired.
-4 DM for every prior major misjump (after repairs)
-1 DM if drive is not performing to design.

Misjump itself is not just "randomly trip to nowhere".

I see slight, minor, major, and catastrophic misjumps.

Fail misjump roll by 
1 = slight, ship misses destination by 1D6 x 0.1 parsec
2 = minor, same as jumping short during shakedown
3 = major, same as standard misjump
5 = catastrophic, you never come out of hyperspace

Note that some captains might feel it worth the risk.  Some 
old traders are probably the equivalent of the African Queen.

Replacing jump drives involves recalibration, which means the 
shakedown happens again.

I think that there should be a minimum separation distance 
when using jump drives.  Think of that B5 episode where they 
open a hyperspace portal from a White Star when they already 
were in an open gate.  Two ships too close to each other are 
already shredding space/hyperspace, and that has to have an 
effect.  Might make a good suicide maneuver for a smaller 
destroyer who is trying to kill a battlerider fleeing the 
field.

Additional Misjump DMs
- Jump Rating of Nearby Ship Using Jump Drive (100 km)
- Missile Factor if Nuclear Missiles hit during jump 
initiation

Unlike the so-called "jump flash", I really really like the 
way that going into/out of hyperspace looked in B5.  
Aesthetically pleasing.  Plus, everyone gets some warning 
that a jump point is forming.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 00:14:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <20020403134048.A15012@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204012225.DDN00679@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <001001c1d9cd$cda5c200$92d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020401185217.00a70390@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020402183101.A11595@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402051659.00acaa00@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020403074537.A13916@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402165447.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020403100543.B14283@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402204808.027dd050@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402235745.00acdde0@pop.wizard.net>

>I'm sorry, I just don't see how making starships cheap erases all
>these things that factor into making a local culture significantly
>different from others.  More than that, I don't see how inflating the
>cost of inter*planetary* spacecraft adds anything at all to the
>variety within the Imperium, let alone differences outside it.

I don't thing making starships cheap _erases_ all the good and excellent 
factors that you cited from the equation.  But making them expensive does 
_enhance_ the isolation of cultures on different worlds.  I think it is a 
significant difference, and (maybe) arguably enough of a difference that 
prudent game designers wanted to take advantage of it.  I note that Loren 
has been with this game since before the beginning, and also is line editor 
for GT, and you say that jump drive prices in GT appear to be the same as 
in CT.  There may be a reason for that.

As you've already seen, I'm not that afraid of changing things.  I want to 
lower starship costs by a couple of orders of magnitude, mostly because I 
rely on those other good and excellent factors you cited.

I differ over whether interplanetary spacecraft have inflated costs in all 
versions of Traveller except for GT.  Perhaps it seems so to someone coming 
to Traveller first through GURPS Traveller, but bear in mind that GT is the 
fifth major version of Traveller and all four previous versions began with 
and maintained the same approximate price schedules for ship building.

Perhaps GT is deflationary, rather than all other Traveller 
inflationary?  :->  It's a point-of-view thing.  Only with the benefit of 
hindsight and being GT-centric do we come to the view of previous Traveller 
versions as being inflationary.  I have no problem with GT being so 
different on this, it's all a matter of taste.  Not even TNE managed to be 
really hard science, and all other versions even less so.  We're all 
arguing over angels on the head of a pin, really.  How much does it cost to 
build a power plant or a thruster plate?  Whatever I say it does, 
IMTU.  Whatever you say it does, IYTU.  :->

AFAIK, it will never be possible to build thruster plates, so who can say 
their cost.  AFAIK, nobody can say how cheap, safe, easy to operate fusion 
power plants can be made to provide incredibly abundant energy or how they 
would be designed and constructed, so who can say their cost.  Probably, 
there is no way to ever do it.  Put 'em in gumball machines if it makes YTU 
happy, is what I say.  Which should generate at least one good SF short story.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:18:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:18:19 -0800
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
In-Reply-To: <E16s3jE-0001h7-00@pluto2.runbox.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402211746.00ac7870@mail.verizon.net>

Me too!  ;-)

Charles McKnight
res0i3sf@verizon.net



At 03:28 PM 4/1/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Any chance of seeing these?
>
>Beth
>
> > I'd be interested to see this...
> >
> > In days past I used to write such manuals for a live-role-playing game
> > based on 25th century space marines. These included a medical manual, EOD
> > procedures and even the Uniform Code of Military Justice (a guaranteed
> > cure for insommnia!).
> >
> > Hugs and kisses,
> >
> > Mexal,
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:20:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:20:35 -0800
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
In-Reply-To: <200203310432.DAH01551@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402211958.00ab2190@mail.verizon.net>

Hi John,

I'd appreciate an opportunity to look it over.

Thanks!

Charles McKnight
res0i3sf@verizon.net

At 11:32 PM 3/30/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Just finished going through what will be a rather long
>document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units
>in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may
>differ.
>
>But..  I need more input.  I've just moved a current day
>document a fair number of years into the future (out to TL10,
>so far), and I would like to take it a bit further, say TL12.
>
>I am interested in anyone's input concerning what might be
>standard operating procedure (instructions to individual
>soldiers, teams, and platoons).  Some of the detail I have is
>down to the items to carry.
>
>I am especially interested in what might be SOP in regards to
>weapons, employment of specific weapons (such as, "always use
>the plasma gun to break contact").
>
>I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing
>to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages
>so far.
>________________
>Do you think my being stronger and
>faster has anything to do with my
>muscles in this place?...Do you think
>that's air that you are breathing?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:29:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:29:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20402.180059.2g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 02, 2002 06:00:59 PM
Message-ID: <200204030529.g335TAO02739@localhost.uia.net>

Leonard writes:
> Inertial *compensation* exists in Traveller. Inertial
> *suppression/neutralization* is a different matter.

So if you're crusing at 6G, and your inertial conpensators
crap out all of a sudden, watch out :-)

Probably there's some sort of automated cut-off for that
sort of situation, but it's odd that we don't see the floor/wall
field generators or their power usage in any of the design specs.
Then again, we don't see the light bulbs either, so perhaps they're
cheap and energy efficient.

> True inertia neutralization (or suppression) changes F=ma to F=kma
> where k is a constant (or variable) determined by the degree of
> neutralization. 
> 
> In effect, you are changing the inertial mass of the objects in
> question. If this was what was happening in Traveller, then you
> couldn't throw a ball across a compartment. As soon as you quit
> pushing, the air resistance would stop it. 

But the air molecules would also have a lower inertia, so they'd
be easier to sweep aside. In short, since both the air and the ball
are both effected equally by inertial suppression, they'd both behave
normally.

Imagine two balls on a pool table. Now imagine them made out of
styrofoam. Impart one with a given velocity, so it strikes it's
neighbor, and it should react just like a normal pool ball
(particularly if we take away the pool table and put them in
a vacuum... this isn't a cheat, all I'm saying is that the
kinetic energy transfer should result in the exact same outcome
regardless of the degree of inertial neutralization).

But, as you say in a later post, the energy of forces might seem
stronger under inertial suppression. Well, is that really the
case? A change in gravity should produce no difference, as
masses fall at the same speed, all other things being equal.
If I drop a feather in a vacuum, and a drop a rock in a
vacuum, they should both fall at the same speed. So I don't
think that changing inertia should effect how an object behaves
with respect to the gravitational force. What about the weak,
strong, and EM forces?

> Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
> things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects. 

In what way?

> There's also the question as to whether or not gravitational mass and
> inertial mass are the same thing. Last I heard, experiments had shown
> that they were the same to with 1 part in something like 10^12, but
> it's still an *assumption* that they are the same thing.

It may be that both inertia and gravity are linked to the zero
point field and/or space-time curvature. I don't know enough
physics to lend any ideas on the topic, but I can forward you
some articles on it pulled from New Scientist if you'd be
interested in a quick read.

> But assuming that you can live thru the process, then it'd be best to
> ignore all the effects at the sub-molar level (ie molecular and lower).

Can't do this.
 
> This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
> work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
> viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.

Except that your heart would also be of a lower apparent mass.
Instead of thinking of a normal pool ball hitting a styrofoam ball,
think of one styrofoam ball hitting another one. On the molecular
scale, I'm guessing that this would be more akin to what would be
happening. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:40:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:40:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> from "John T. Kwon" at Apr 02, 2002 05:22:44 PM
Message-ID: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>

> One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the 
> price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial 
> cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very 
> much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be 
> possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for 
> mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the 
> fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator 
> runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to 
> ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of 
> the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.

That and a lack of dirt. Actually, with cheap energy (ala fusion),
transportation costs would probably plummet as well. I remember
reading a book of short stories back in high school, and in one
of them, the author posited that nuclear fusion created an era
of plenty where people struggled to be good consumers (comsuming
as much of everything as they could so as to keep the econony
humming along... consuming became an occupation in itself). I
thought the conclusion was rather silly, but the question raised
(what would the world be like with cheap energy?) was certainly
interesting, and it's something which I haven't really seen
explored beyond the most superficial level. What would the
world be like if supply so outstripped demand that the vast
majority of people would no longer have to work. In a way, we're
living it (not meaning to start a flamewar over social policy, but
it's my intuition that welfare recipients today probably live
better than their hard working ancestors of centuries past), but
imagine the trend were extended such that everyone could live
in idle luxury, and only a small percentage of the population
need be employeed. What would that be like? I can't even scratch
the surface of potential ramifications. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:49:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:49:54 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <E16sWO7-0004I7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 02:04:52PM -0800
References: <20020402170614.8CDA5279B8@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16sWO7-0004I7-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020402224954.B10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 02:04:52PM -0800, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> > (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
> > 
> > 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.
> 
> In Jeopardy mode:
> 
> Heretics for 100: Who is Galileo

I should note that the Catholic Church's issues with Galileo were not
his science but rather his theology.  The man took the heliocentric
idea (developed, IIRC, by a Catholic priest) and drew incorrect
theological conclusions therefrom.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Wouldn't you love to fill out _that_ report?  `Company asset #423423 was
lost while fighting the forces of evil.'                   --Chris Adams

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 05:53:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:53:56 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #372 - 42 msgs
In-Reply-To: <B8CF87E8.342AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 04:08:08PM -0800
References: <5.1.0.14.1.20020402155400.00a4c780@mailhost.efn.org> <B8CF87E8.342AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020402225356.C10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> "When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."

Still more proof that digest mode is a work of the devil...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The power of Satan is as nothing before the might of the Lord, so don't
go getting any ideas.                             --I Abyssinians 20:20

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:03:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:03:11 -0700
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:30:25PM -0500
References: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se> <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020402230311.D10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:30:25PM -0500, laning wrote:
>
> I am on both sides of the fence (I'm like Jeremy the Nowhere Man in
> 'Yellow Submarine' or the Scarecrow in 'The Wizard of Oz').  I
> sympathize with Harlan Ellison and others.  I also feel strongly
> that sharing knowledge has less value to the human race if the
> knowledge is only shared with those who can pay for it.  The
> Internet is a great democratizer of knowledge sharing.  (It's more a
> socialist thing than a democracy thing, but it's not generally
> acceptable in the States to express it that way.)

The ideal solution, of course, is for those of a moral bent to produce
their own, superior, IP and publish it openly.  Much like New Riders
do with their books (all, AFAIK, available under an open license) and
the GNU project do with theirs.  As unto the software hoarders, so
unto all IP hoarders.

Incidentally, the Open Content License <http://www.opencontent.org/>
makes provisions for author approval of significantly modified
versions (e.g. some of the nastier forms of fanfic), and for
interested parties to retrieve original versions of the work.

And yes, I release my Traveller code <http://travtrack.sf.net/> under
the GPL.  Thereby putting my money where my mouth is.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ubi non accusator, ibi non judex.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:11:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:11:14 +0100
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
References: <200204030529.g335TAO02739@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <007301c1dad6$5c23ef80$52200050@matt>

Just a though, but wouldn't the inertial compensation in Traveller consist
of using grav plates to create a grav pull of 1G les than the accelleration
on a reciprocal vector?

Assuming decks at right angles to thrust, if you accelerate at 6G create a
5G field in the ceiling... voil, effectively 1G felt by occupants... (other
orientations will require G-Plates to generate G at other angles, but heck,
they are made of Handwavium anyway...)

Or am I getting this completely wrong?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:21:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:21:10 -0700
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402223515.02da9ec0@192.168.0.1>; from eclipse@urbin.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 10:37:18PM -0500
References: <20020403013705.85827279FF@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020402223515.02da9ec0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020402232110.F10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 10:37:18PM -0500, Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> They already have their own official terrorist wings, ELF & ALF (Earth 
> Liberation Front & Animal Liberation Front) leading the FBI lists.

Who have, incidentally, killed people.  They are not heroes of any
sort or kind, and deserve to be hunted to the ends of the earth.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I have sustained a continual bombardment & cannonade for 24 hours & have
not lost a man.  The enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion,
otherwise the garrison are to be put to the sword if the fort is taken.
I have answered the demand with a cannon shot, and our flag still waves
proudly from the walls.  I shall never surrender nor retreat.
                                         --William B. Travis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:25:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:25:45 -0800
Subject: [TML] re: Information, please:  Kians
Message-ID: <200204030622.g336MGh15548@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians
...
>     Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
>kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
>pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
>Cavalry.
>     Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?

  JTAS #9, per the "JTAS Index" from Jim V., posted 1 Mar 2002?

  Grenadier did a mini for `em, too :>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:24:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:24:43 -0700
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>; from jimv@uia.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:40:53PM -0800
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020402232443.G10793@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 09:40:53PM -0800, jimv wrote:
>
> In a way, we're living it (not meaning to start a flamewar over
> social policy, but it's my intuition that welfare recipients today
> probably live better than their hard working ancestors of centuries
> past)

Hell, the great majority of the poor in the USA are better off than
the great majority of mankind ever.  Obesity is a greater problem than
starvation.  Most own colour TVs; many own cars.  The poverty of the
American is the wealth of just about anyone at just about any other
time in history.

Not that there are not those who suffer in real poverty, of course.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home and leave us in
peace.  We seek not your counsel, nor your arms.  Crouch down and lick
the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our
country men.                                        --Samuel Adams

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:44:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:44:34 +0100
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402225752.027fbae0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <014b01c1dadb$03f89400$52200050@matt>

> Canonically, the largest possible starship is 1,000,000 under CT LBB 5,
and

No, its 1,000,000dton+...

The tonnage listed for a size category is the lower bound, the upper bound
being one dton less than the lower bound of the next size category. For the
1,000,000 dTon category there is no next category, so no upper bound.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 06:58:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:58:12 -0800
Subject: [TML] Aliens Among Us
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEGACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

This week in JTAS online is an excellent article that I would like to
recommend to everyone:

Aliens Among Us, by James Maliszewski
Another installment of Travellers' Tales

If you don't subscribe to JTAS online, you should.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:46:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:46:56 -0600
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices [long]
References: <200204030510.DFV03007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAAB370.B2E1DE88@premier.net>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> laning <laning@wizard.net>
> <snip size limits>
> 
> I think that limiting people to smaller ships really gives us
> the "small ship" Traveller.  So...
> 
> >
> >Now for the thorny part.  What does one have to do to a ship
> >to get it's full jump capability out of it?
> 
> For the first ten jumps (shakedown), roll 10+ to achieve the
> design jump rating, DM Average Engineering Skill Level of
> crew, maximum DM 4.  You must use refined fuel for these
> calibration jumps.  Failure results in a jump reduced by 1
> parsec per point failed.  This means that shipyards have to
> have rescue/refuelling ships ready to save shakedown failures.
> 
> Average the performance over the shakedown, and round up.
> This is the true Jump rating.  Note that in some cases, the
> military will not accept delivery of a ship that takes enough
> fuel for Jump-4 to only do a Jump-3.

Based on this specification, and assuming an average Engineering skill
of 2 (rather generous, given the large engineer contingents on
cruiser-sized vessels), an AHL-class Fleet Intruder would almost
certainly fail to achieve the designed 5-parsec range.  With an average
Engineering skill of 2, an AHL would require a roll of 8+ per jump, for
10 jumps.  There is a 15/36 (41.67%) chance per jump of meeting spec;
this means that for each calibration jump, there is a 21/36 (58.33%)
chance of failing by at least one point.  The average failure will be by
2 points, and your formula gives no bonus for exceeding the required
roll.  Assuming average results, we can expect there to be four
successful rolls (J-5 for each) and six failed rolls (with an expected
average of J-3).  20 + 18 / 10 gives an expected average performance of
J-3.8 (rounded up to J-4); this is 80% of the design performance of an
AHL-class Fleet Intruder.  Note that ships designed for J-4 will
generally only meet J-3 (75% of spec).

To use a modern analogy: the design speed for a WW II-era
_Cleveland_-class CL (the most numerous cruiser class ever built) was 33
knots.  Given your formula, it would be surprising to find a _Cleveland_
that could do over 26.4 knots (80% of 33 knots).  Further, even if the
first ship, or even the first three ships, of the class made design
speed, each additional example of the class would still be likely to be
limited to 26.4 knots.  The above assumes that a _Cleveland_-class CL is
equivalent to a J-5 ship.  If we assume that a _Cleveland_ is equivalent
to a J-4 vessel, we can conclude that the majority of such ships could
only make 24.75 knots (as opposed to a design speed of 33 knots). 
Clearly, this degree of variation from spec is unacceptable for a
production run of ships.

I would suggest that these rules apply to prototype ships (including the
requirement to replace jump drives [presumably of a slightly different
design]).  Once the bugs have been worked out of a design (i.e., at
least one ship of the class has performed to-spec, and the operational
reports have been forwarded to the designing shipyard), ships of a given
class should receive a positive modifier (I'd suggest +4; with an
average Engineering skill of 2, this gives a failure chance of 1/12 per
jump, with 2/3 of failures being only -1) to each roll; ships built by
yards other than the designing yard would receive an additional -1 until
they had built 1D ships that met jump specifications.  A natural roll of
2 is an automatic failure, regardless of modifiers.  IMPORTANT: **Any
ships begun during development stage of a given class would be treated
as prototypes.**  Given this last stipulation, few designs would go into
series production until the prototype was debugged.  This would serve to
limit the proliferation of new designs during times of crisis.

My suggestions would mean that it would take some effort to work the
bugs out of a prototype.  Few ships would be built of a given class
until the bugs had been worked out, and the designing shipyard would
receive the bulk of orders.

I would also suggest that the building yard must bear 1/2 of the cost to
bring an in-production ship up to spec; the ordering authority would
bear the entire cost to develop a prototype.  Naturally, a new design
proposed by a shipyard (as opposed to a new design requested by a buyer)
would require the designing shipyard to bear the entire cost of
prototype development. Note that, by requiring the ordering authority to
bear at least some of the cost, the ordering authority is encouraged to
use highly-trained crews for development and shakedowns.  This reflects
the "test pilot" mentality of those involved in developing a new class
of ship....
> 
> Straight rule -- ships displacing 5000 tons or less roll for
> shakedown on a 6+, not 10+.

I would use this as the rule for prototype ships of this size;
production models would gain the additional +4 (-1 if built by a yard
other than the designing yard).  This would allow smaller ships to be
developed more quickly and produced more rapidly once developed. 
Obviously, designing new classes of large ships would be much more
costly than designing new classes of smaller vessels.

Amortized ships (i.e., those assigned a "type" designation in CT LBB2 or
Supp7 [Type A/A1 Free Trader, Type A2 Far Trader, Type C Mercenary
Cruiser, Type CE Close Escort, Type J Seeker, Type M Subsidized Liner,
Type R Subsidized Merchant, Type S Scout/Courier, Type T Patrol Cruiser,
Type X Xboat, Type XT Xboat Tender and Type Y Yacht]) would not require
shakedown rolls at all.  Equivalent standard ships published in non-CT
rulesets are considered as amortized.  A design not assigned a "type"
designation would be considered amortized once at least 1000 ships of
that class had been successfully (i.e., to-spec) built in that TU.
> 
> Remedy:  Replace the jump drives.  See how expensive this is
> getting?

Under my approach, this would be common for prototype ships (thus adding
to the development costs), as the best jump drive configuration was
worked out by experience. I would also suggest that jump drive
replacement during development would cost 150% of the normal jump drive
replacement cost (after all, you have to pull the old drive out and
possibly modify the ship to mount the new drive).  Production ships
would rarely need to have drives replaced, as the prototypes would have
already determined the optimal drive configuration for that class;
failures to make spec would thus be considered as resulting from
defective or (in the case of ships built by yards other than the
designing yard) inappropriate jump drives.  Cost in the latter case
would be 125% of normal drive replacement cost.
> 
> >Can the jump capability decline over time even though it has
> >not been battle damaged and is being properly maintained?
> >
> 
> On the misjump roll, in addition to CT DMs
> -1 DM for every 10 years of drive age.
> -1 DM for every hit on the Jump drives if repaired
> -2 DM for every hit on the Jump drives not repaired (running
> with battle damage)
> -1 DM for every prior slight or minor misjump, even if
> repaired.
> -4 DM for every prior major misjump (after repairs)
> -1 DM if drive is not performing to design.

I would allow +1 per ship overhaul (10x cost of annual maintenance, and
requiring 1D/2 months); this bonus can only cancel penalties listed
above.  Replacing the jump drive would cancel all penalties listed above
(but, as noted below, would require recalibration).  Government-owned
vessels would probably undergo overhaul at least every five years
(upgrades would be installed at this time, as applicable).
> 
> Misjump itself is not just "randomly trip to nowhere".
> 
> I see slight, minor, major, and catastrophic misjumps.
> 
> Fail misjump roll by
> 1 = slight, ship misses destination by 1D6 x 0.1 parsec
> 2 = minor, same as jumping short during shakedown
> 3 = major, same as standard misjump
> 5 = catastrophic, you never come out of hyperspace

While I like the idea of this table, I don't altogether care for the
results.  I would suggest that slight and minor misjumps include a
temporal option along with their spatial option.  In other words, the
referee could assign time distortions in lieu of (or along with) the
spatial errors listed above.  After all, missing by .6 parsec can be
even worse than missing by a full parsec; a full-parsec miss could put
the ship in proximity to a different system, while a .6 parsec misjump
guarantees that the ship will be about 2 light-years from any system
(given a 1-parsec hex map).
> 
> Note that some captains might feel it worth the risk.  Some
> old traders are probably the equivalent of the African Queen.
> 
> Replacing jump drives involves recalibration, which means the
> shakedown happens again.

Again, for production-series ships, I would allow the modifiers
suggested above.
> 
<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:15:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:15:49 +1000
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020403181549.A15722@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> imagine the trend were extended such that everyone could live in
> idle luxury, and only a small percentage of the population need be
> employeed. What would that be like?

I suspect that people's idea of "luxury" would then extend to things
that take work to achieve.  If on welfare you can afford a new car
every year, then those who are employed (possibly in a 20-hour working
week) might be able to afford a new *starship* each year.  Or at least
a new *luxury* transport instead of an average model that merely gets
you from A to B in the spartan style of the early 21st century
"luxury" limousines.


I'm more interested in the *next* step: what if nobody needs to work
at all?  That is, what if anything that humans can do, some form of
machines can do just as well without needing humans to tell them how?

Unlike a number of science fiction authors, I am *far* from convinced
that the result would be a utopian society where your every whim could
be satisfied.  Even in the extreme case where you've got a universal
machine capable of doing anything that a human can do, you still need
a *lot* of them to do anything that a society as a whole can do.  Even
in the case where you've got a universal factory, it still needs the
appropriate designs, materials, energy, and time.  At least one of the
first three would probably belong to someone else, and so you've still
got scarcity of some sort.  Chances are that time is also not
unlimited.

In fact, I can imagine that a society with such advanced technology
might simply discount the value of human labour to near-zero.  The
rate of return on invested capital might be quite good, but if you've
got nothing to begin with and can't earn much through work then you're
in a bit of a bind.  You might not starve, but you'll have to acquire
capital via other means if you want to join the set of wealthy people
who actually have stuff other people want.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:05:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:05:54 -0800
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
>
>I'm drawing a blank for "zh" speakers.  Places that are vaguely middle
>eastern or central asian come to mind for some reason, but nothing
specific.

Mandarin has a lot of "zh", but Zdetl is not a tonal language.  Some of the
Slavic languages (Polish comes to mind) have insane consonant strings like
Zdetl.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:05:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:05:56 -0800
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEGBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>
>I find myself in the role of Mr. Movie.  For a pretty nasty story
>along these lines, take a look at the movie "Commando".  Our hero is
>blackmailed into taking on an assassination for the villians, but

"You're a funny man, Smelly.  I like you.  Dat's vhy I kill you lest."
Colonel John Matrix was named Father of the Year by Soldier of Fortune
magazine that year.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:54:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:54:53 -0800
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEMAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Like I would guess many peoples did, 
MTU (tm) just grew, accreting layers 
and lumps as bright shiny things 
attracted my eyes.

Well I've decided to do a new one up right.
thinking about what final conditions I want 
then deciding what conditions are needed to 
create them.  

What I want

a distant and non intrusive Imperium, with a 
vaguely libertarian outlook.

a low powered environment, PC's are low level 
players on the galactic scene.

The campaign is on a frontier, a la Spinward
 Marches

book two sized and powered ships are normal
(without necessarily using LBB two starship 
design), economic and physical forces work 
against large ships.

Mil spec toys are rare

Prices and rewards are at a level where 
a party could in game earn enough money to 
make down payment on a used starship and 
then keep up payments.

the interstellar iconology is healthy enough 
that a backwater system is looking at 10 or 
so ships a week (recalling that most ships 
tend to be small)

Mega-corps exist, but are far more important 
along main trade routes and major systems.

Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop 
2 worlds


Conditions

The imperium is interested in external defense, 
surveying and mapping, stable currency, internal 
communications.

Imperial taxes are very low.

Imperial currency is very stable, currency drafts are
excepted Imperium wide.  Local currency is
much less flexible and much less used.  

As an exception to the libertarianism of the Imperium, 
building large (spinal mount sized ) weapons is very 
restricted.  Likewise, brute force invasions of 
neighboring worlds is discouraged.

Most systems military is Coast Guard, National Guard 
level stuff.  They are oriented to stopping raiders 
and internal affairs.  

The Scout service is canon and very important, both 
as a survey operation and a communications office

While they can feed them selves, few systems are fully 
self supporting in other areas, lacks and shortfalls 
are usually obtainable within a susbsector, with smaller 
ships this tends to pump up ship traffic.

Development is concentrated in most cases to the main planet 
in system, the rest is unpatrolled and poorly explored.

Way / refueling stations exist in marginal systems where there 
are no colonies.  These system are very poorly explored, and 
lacking nice places for humans to live.

The average campaign world is TL 12 and are lower end 
population, 5 - 8 (Population is the population living 
in system, on both sides of the of the XT line and 
including permanently stationed troops.  Any fancy 
arrangement is described in the system listing)

High tech and high population world are hubs supporting 
surrounding lower tech and pop worlds.  Trade is usually 
surrounding -- Hub, and Hub -- Hub

Absent local conditions against it, most worlds have 
about a type C space port.  Spaceports have the maintenance 
ability one level higher then their build ability. 

Ships last a long time, absent combat damage and with 
proper maintenance, a 200 year old freighter is still 
functional.

Technology is stable, the rough edges have been 
worn off most standard designs centuries ago.

The Imperium makes public domain standardized plans for 
many thing available.  While local peculiarities exist, 
a surprisingly large number of items are standardized 
imperium wide. (unless of course it is for a plot point)

Pirates exists, not as ECMs but as semi organized groups 
in the fringes of the system.  A lot of time and effort 
of the local navies is spent chasing them down.
________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:34:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:34:26 +0200
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020402211314.028011d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020403123426.04d59074.jenry023@student.liu.se>

laning wrote:
> By the way, Jens, have you read Hal Clement's 'Mission of Gravity'?  A 
> great example of intelligent alien life forms evolving on a world
extremely 
> different from Terra.  A just plain extreme world, in fact.  Clement
opens 
> the hood and lets us peer into a lot of the alien building he does.  The

> book's a classic, in fact.

Nope, I haven't. And I doubt that the library has that book in stock. I've
placed it on the list of books to look for now, though.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:49:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:49:22 +1000
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Robots from Dragon/Book 8
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17904@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Hey TMLers,

I recently crunched a remake of the Dragon Article on Robots using elements
from Book 8. I have even done up about 10 or so bots, in the theme of
popular Sci Fi bots (not C3P0 though...) from da movies. Prices are cheaper
generally than Book 8, and there is much hand waving for all you gearheads
out there (so sue me). Skill resolution has been modified to fit my
mechanics but I would think is easier enough to engineer for whatever game
system you use to run Traveller. 

If anyone is interested email me off list

Mikey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:31:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:31:27 -0500
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices [long]
Message-ID: <200204031231.DGL00640@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

John Groth says
<snip good rules for prototypes> 

Sounds like a good way to keep the lid on ship size, and 
perhaps even on the total number of ships.

I am also wondering:  there are more than a few nations that 
could probably "afford" to build an aircraft carrier, but 
many of them don't, or are retiring those that they have.  I 
think that the costs of maintenance for larger ships is more 
significant than for a smaller ship.  

Any ideas on how to make the larger ship more expensive to 
maintain?  The USS Kennedy is a recent case in point.  It can 
still cruise around, but it doesn't take much to make it 
not "mission capable".
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:34:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:34:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] pbem starting
Message-ID: <200204031234.DGL00812@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Now taking players for a pbem set in the Corridor area.
CT rules, with some modifications.
If you are interested, please e-mail jtkwon@jtkgroup.com.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:12:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 08:12:11 -0500
Subject: [TML] In a world of plenty
In-Reply-To: <200204030540.g335esI02764@localhost.uia.net>
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403080940.027e7b68@192.168.0.1>

At 09:40 PM 4/2/2002 -0800, jimv wrote:
> > One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the
> > price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial
> > cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very
> > much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be
> > possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for
> > mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the
> > fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator
> > runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to
> > ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of
> > the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.

Actually one of the cool things about T4 was a short bit about
how one lived at the poverty line in a TL C society.

Even though they lived very well compared to the poor in a TL 9 (or less) 
society,
you still had Haves and Haves Nots, so there was "Class" friction that could
be exploited.

>That and a lack of dirt. Actually, with cheap energy (ala fusion),
>transportation costs would probably plummet as well. I remember
>reading a book of short stories back in high school, and in one
>of them, the author posited that nuclear fusion created an era
>of plenty where people struggled to be good consumers (comsuming
>as much of everything as they could so as to keep the econony
>humming along... consuming became an occupation in itself). I
>thought the conclusion was rather silly, but the question raised
>(what would the world be like with cheap energy?) was certainly
>interesting, and it's something which I haven't really seen
>explored beyond the most superficial level. What would the
>world be like if supply so outstripped demand that the vast
>majority of people would no longer have to work. In a way, we're
>living it (not meaning to start a flamewar over social policy, but
>it's my intuition that welfare recipients today probably live
>better than their hard working ancestors of centuries past), but
>imagine the trend were extended such that everyone could live
>in idle luxury, and only a small percentage of the population
>need be employeed. What would that be like? I can't even scratch
>the surface of potential ramifications. -Jim
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem
among the poor than starvation. That's something that
would have been science fiction to anybody who grew up
before, say, 1900, or even 1950
-------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:32:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:32:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>
References: <20020402191127.6b66c4f3.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEIGDJAA.ct@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020402201432.444efd17.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Classic Traveller wrote:
> When it is completed I will publish it in PDF. That way it will
definitely
> see print "see print", if it is worth the paper to print it on ;)

No problem. I'll print it at the university for free  ;-)

How much material are you aiming at? What kind?

I imagine TAS could be used as an alternative to the intrigues among the
noble families. After all, the idle rich are always a good source for
strife. Just look at the old-school soap operas (Dallas, Falcon Crest,
etc) out there...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 23 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
Message-ID: <E16smpE-0002tC-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

If you listen very carefully at the end of the recording, with the right fi=
ltering you can just hear:
<RECORDING ON>
> PC's on a derelict free trader:
> PC1: "Hmmm, blood everywhere but no bodies"
> PC2: "The only thing on the manifest is penguins, yet
> the cargo bay is empty"
> PC3: "Who would slaughter an entire ships crew for
> penguins?"
> PC2: "They also took the small craft"
> PC1: "Whats that noise?"
> PC3: "What noise?"
> PC1: "Sounded like flapping of some kind"
> PC2: "Lets get back to the ship"
> PC1: "Okay lets go. <speaking into com> Hey Samantha,
> light up the drives where out of here"
> <No response>
> PC1: "Samantha?, do you read?"
> PC2: "Hey wheres Jimmy?"
> PC1: <Spinning around to search for Jimmy> "Jimmy,
> jimmy?"

(soft singing, low voice) Scooby duby do...

> <END RECORDING>
>=20
> James
>=20

Beth


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:42:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:42:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEMAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403103415.00a8a750@pop.wizard.net>

John-Martin describes his new world order Traveller universe.  Which sounds 
awfully like CT when there were still only a few books published.

You may want to go with CT, and a few house rules.  Maintenance capability 
of starports being one higher than construction capability, for 
instance.  Which sounds like a pretty good rule.  Take CT material 
published from Trillion Credit Squadron onwards with a grain of salt, or 
even ignore it.  TCS economics tend to make the Imperium and other stellar 
empires be too omnipresent and powerful for the universe you 
described.  You may be happiest with the Azhanti High Lightning as one of 
the most important warships of its time, or even the Kinunir.  Take Book 5 
- High Guard out of the ship construction rules entirely.  That would limit 
the largest ships to 5,000 tons.  Or use Book 5 only for 
referee-constructed ships.  Although you did say you don't want to use LBB 
2, either.  Sounds like you will need either extensive mods of existing 
rules or to write your own from scratch.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEMAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <20020403155041.62193.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  Please see below for comments......
  >>
--- John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Like I would guess many peoples did, 
> MTU (tm) just grew, accreting layers 
> and lumps as bright shiny things 
> attracted my eyes.
> 
> Well I've decided to do a new one up right.
> thinking about what final conditions I want 
> then deciding what conditions are needed to 
> create them.  
> 
> What I want
> 
> a distant and non intrusive Imperium, with a 
> vaguely libertarian outlook.
> 
  >>
  I'm there.....
  >>
>
> a low powered environment, PC's are low level 
> players on the galactic scene.
> 
> The campaign is on a frontier, a la Spinward
>  Marches
>
  >>
  Kewl-ness......
  >>
> 
> book two sized and powered ships are normal
> (without necessarily using LBB two starship 
> design), economic and physical forces work 
> against large ships.
>
  >>
  Very cool....
  >>
> 
> Mil spec toys are rare
>
  >>
  Hmmm, verging on uh-oh....
  >>
> 
> Prices and rewards are at a level where 
> a party could in game earn enough money to 
> make down payment on a used starship and 
> then keep up payments.
>
  >>
  Given that the starship economy of Book 2
essentially encourages charactors to skip on their
creditors, I'm SO there....
  >>
>
> the interstellar iconology is healthy enough 
> that a backwater system is looking at 10 or 
> so ships a week (recalling that most ships 
> tend to be small)
>
  >>
  See the 'coda' below under 'Conditions'....
  >>
> 
> Mega-corps exist, but are far more important 
> along main trade routes and major systems.
>
  >>
  OK...but you're hamstringing a good plot device...
  >>
> 
> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop 
> 2 worlds
>
  >>
  .....YES!!!FINALLY!!!..... 
  >>
>
> 
> Conditions
> 
> The imperium is interested in external defense, 
> surveying and mapping, stable currency, internal 
> communications.
> 
> Imperial taxes are very low.
> 
> Imperial currency is very stable, currency drafts
> are
> excepted Imperium wide.  Local currency is
> much less flexible and much less used.  
> 
> As an exception to the libertarianism of the
> Imperium, 
> building large (spinal mount sized ) weapons is very
> restricted.  Likewise, brute force invasions of 
> neighboring worlds is discouraged.
> 
  >>
  The above points are already extant in the 3I,
IIRC......
  >>
>
> Most systems military is Coast Guard, National Guard
> level stuff.  They are oriented to stopping raiders 
> and internal affairs.  
>
  >>
  That's how I've always viewed planetary forces...
  >>
> 
> The Scout service is canon and very important, both 
> as a survey operation and a communications office
>
  >>
  No worries here....
  >>
> 
> While they can feed them selves, few systems are
> fully  self supporting in other areas, lacks and 
> shortfalls are usually obtainable within a 
> susbsector, with smaller ships this tends to pump up
> ship traffic.
> 
> Development is concentrated in most cases to the
> main planet 
> in system, the rest is unpatrolled and poorly
> explored.
> 
  >>
  CODA: Why? At the level of shipping you're talking
about, the only way to ship useful quantities of
product is by BIG carriers(e.g., LASH-type
freighters). 

  It's a lot more economical for a system government
to either encourage or subsidize[sp?] outer system
developement, either by gov't contractors or
(preferably) by 'native' belter-type operator's.
  >>
>
> Way / refueling stations exist in marginal systems
> where there 
> are no colonies.  These system are very poorly
> explored, and 
> lacking nice places for humans to live.
>
  >>
  Who pays for this? The only way to make it
economical enough to be of commercial utility (vs
skimming) is to lower the cost of the fuel provided by
the station's. If they (the ship-driver's) are charged
'market rates', the cost of this fuel will drive up
shipping costs to the point where merchants and
consumers at the recieving end won't be willing to
pay.

  See 'CODA'....
  >>
>
> The average campaign world is TL 12 and are lower
> end 
> population, 5 - 8 (Population is the population
> living 
> in system, on both sides of the of the XT line and 
> including permanently stationed troops.  Any fancy 
> arrangement is described in the system listing)
>
  >>
  Why so low?
  >>
> 
> High tech and high population world are hubs
> supporting 
> surrounding lower tech and pop worlds.  Trade is
> usually 
> surrounding -- Hub, and Hub -- Hub
> 
  >>
  That's how it usually runs.....
  >>
>
> Absent local conditions against it, most worlds have
> about a type C space port.  Spaceports have the
> maintenance 
> ability one level higher then their build ability. 
>
  >>
  This has always been my biggest saw about starports
in Trav: Why are there so many 'D' and 'E' class
ports? With a comparitivley small amount of time and
money, upgrading to at least 'C-' is a pretty small
chore......
  >>
>
> Ships last a long time, absent combat damage and
> with 
> proper maintenance, a 200 year old freighter is
> still 
> functional.
>
  >>
  That's how I always saw these ships....
  >>
> 
> Technology is stable, the rough edges have been 
> worn off most standard designs centuries ago.
> 
> The Imperium makes public domain standardized plans
> for 
> many thing available.  While local peculiarities
> exist, 
> a surprisingly large number of items are
> standardized 
> imperium wide. (unless of course it is for a plot
> point)
> 
  >>
  I'm OK with the stability part. Isn't there
something in GT about a standardised set of plans?
  >>
>
> Pirates exists, not as ECMs but as semi organized
> groups 
> in the fringes of the system.  A lot of time and
> effort 
> of the local navies is spent chasing them down.
> 
  >>
  Of course.
  >>
> 
> jml
> 
  >>
  MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 07:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 07:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
Message-ID: <200204031552.DGR04348@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Beth" says
>> PC3: "Who would slaughter an entire ships crew for
>> penguins?"

Penguins is practically chickens.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 08:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] inheritance Imperial style
Message-ID: <200204031616.DGS00004@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Was just looking at various types of inheritance in history, 
and two were contrasted.  Gavelkind, where all sons share in 
the inheritance equally, and primogeniture, where only the 
eldest gets the goods.

Apparently a driving force behind land acquisition, and when 
the land ran out, the seizure of land from others, was 
primogeniture.  It also provided knights for the Crusade.

"A noble class dependent for its power and position upon the 
possession of land - or, to be more accurate, it's right to 
collect taxes and services from the residents of the land - 
had emerged over the previous century, and the population of 
that hereditary class was growing. As long as the Frankish 
monarchs had continued conquering new lands, there were 
always new districts to distribute to the nobility. Now that 
expansion had ceased, however, the nobles began to suffer 
from "land-hunger" and began to evolve into something 
different from what the had originally been. They took 
complete control of the lands they had been appointed to 
govern in the offices of count, duke, and margrave and to 
treat them as personal possessions. They began to demand 
payment in land for helping one or the other side in the 
incessant civil wars. When the Carolingian monarchs no longer 
had royal lands to give in exchange for support, the fighting 
nobles took over the lands of the churches and the 
monasteries that the central government - such as it was - 
could no longer protect. Even so, they could not continue 
dividing their lands into smaller and smaller pieces. During 
the course of the ninth and early tenth centuries, in a 
process that can be discerned only dimly, the aristocracy of 
western Europe abandoned the deeply-rooted custom of 
gavelkind and replaced it with primogeniture ("first-born"), 
a system in which the core of a family's lands was kept 
intact and passed automatically to the eldest son. In this 
fashion, the empire was shattered into hundreds of 
practically independent districts, each owned and ruled by a 
local strong man in command of a small body of fighting men 
and a castle.

Such a state cannot maintain a navy, so the remnants of the 
Carolingian empire were easy pickings for sea-borne raiders 
from Scandinavia (the Vikings) and from North Africa (the 
Saracens), as well as mounted raiders from central Asia (the 
Magyars, or Hungarians)."

Given the nature of our maps in Traveller, could an 
empire "run out of land"?  Could the current empire be 
described as "hundreds of independent districts, each owned 
and rules by a local strong man (or government) in command of 
a small body of fighting men and a castle (a small army, 
navy, and starbases)"?

I don't think I need the Virus to have the empire fall into 
another Long Night. Piracy at that point might be any ship 
with a weapon.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Wed Apr  3 08:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller PBeMs
In-Reply-To: <B8CF3437.341C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CABA198.12635.5425D9@localhost>

I just started in one, but I'm not the GM.  The GM is Charlotte 
Manton <Charlotte.Manton@btopenworld.com>, and she said 
she's definitely willing to accept new players.  I don't think the 
game has a web page yet, though, so ask her if you have 
questions.

-- Rachel Kronick
.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 08:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Wed Apr  3 08:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <F306Upm0RnzXotJAadV00014e0d@hotmail.com>

David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>On rule of thumb in security is that the hard you make it for
>unwarranted intrusion, the harder you make it for authorized people

A corralary to this: the harder you make it for authorized
people, the more likely it is that the authorized people will
disable the security.  If all your passwords are twenty-character
random alphanumeric strings, expect to see sticky notes with the
passwords written on them stuck everywhere the passwords will
be used.  If that retinal scanner makes the crew sit through
three or four rescans before it lets them in, or mistakes them
for a terrorist a couple times a week, expect the retinal scanner
to be bypassed before the ship comes out of its first jump.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:06:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:06:11 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <E16safh-0007qK-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CAB365A.5070001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>or look up flux compressors 
>>
>>The military is seriously researching these babies and the figures 
>>I've seen sound like you could get a several hundred meter radius 
>>kill on all unsheilded electronics from on blast.
>>
>>Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find
>>anything.  OK, I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite
>>terrorist building these? --
> 
> 
> That's a very good question.  I've read speculation that they may 
> have been used in some places, but I'd think the evidence would be 
> pretty obvious (lots of fried computers).  At that point, I'm guessing 
> that most terrorists want to see blood far more than lost data.

There is speculation that they have been used, but in the commission of 
crimes. (good way to whack alarm systems.)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:07:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:07:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <ba.23b5ccdc.29dc9067@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 20:00:27 GMT Daylight Time, thing@moonwise.com 
writes:


> > Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs
> > starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're
> > borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.
> >
> > The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not
> to
> > let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can
> probably
> > see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information
> than
> > you wish to give out.
> 
> Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low
> intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low 
> power
> biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.  If the
> security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like
> vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most
> other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.

Actually I was thinking of MRI or sound based scanning systems. Plus the 
ability of a device to scan through a visor in a variety of EM spectrums and 
actually see what its looking at.

Its not necessarily eay to fool the system if it "knows" the vacc suit or 
expects the operator to use a code to validate the data. I'm not saying that 
biometric data alone will be used - I agree that that would be overly simple 
and easy to defeat. I would expect at least a dual system of biometrics and 
code or key (or both). 

> 
> > If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems
> for
> > opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a 
> glitch
> > then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to
> a
> > specialist lock-smith.
> 
> If there is a mechanical system for opening the door than it comes down to
> cutting the power to the doors locking mechanism so that you can operate 
> the
> manual.  This usually wouldn't be too difficult.
> 
> G.D.D.
> 
It's not too difficult to conceive of a lockout that knows the difference 
between a power failure and a someone cutting the supply to the locks 
mechanism. It may be as simple as having a number of different sensors 
located around the door. A person wishing to cut the power *only* to the 
doors mechanism must therefore be able to, effectively, remove the door from 
its setting. If they can do that then a lock isn't going to stop them getting 
in :).

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 20:00:27 GMT Daylight Time, thing@moonwise.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; Actually I disagree. I think biometric devices will be common - at the TLs<BR>
&gt; starships operate at your vacc suit will know who you are, and if you're<BR>
&gt; borrowing one it'll know a great deal about you.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; The vacc suit can talk to the ship and the ship can decide whether or not<BR>
to<BR>
&gt; let you in. If push comes to shove the ship's biometric sensors can<BR>
probably<BR>
&gt; see through the a standard vacc suit and scan you for more information<BR>
than<BR>
&gt; you wish to give out.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I would assume that the standard vacc suit is opaque to most low<BR>
intensity radiation for survival sake outside a starship, and most low power<BR>
biometric sensors would be out for scanning through the suit.&nbsp; If the<BR>
security system is designed to take the work of third party devices like<BR>
vacc suits as to a persons identity, or fingerprints, retina scans, or most<BR>
other biometric data then it makes it that much easier to fool the system.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Actually I was thinking of MRI or sound based scanning systems. Plus the ability of a device to scan through a visor in a variety of EM spectrums and actually see what its looking at.<BR>
<BR>
Its not necessarily eay to fool the system if it "knows" the vacc suit or expects the operator to use a code to validate the data. I'm not saying that biometric data alone will be used - I agree that that would be overly simple and easy to defeat. I would expect at least a dual system of biometrics and code or key (or both). </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
&gt; If the ship is without power then there are probably mechanical systems<BR>
for<BR>
&gt; opening doors that don't work if power is on. If the computer has a glitch<BR>
&gt; then opening the door may require a "trapdoor" in the system or access to<BR>
a<BR>
&gt; specialist lock-smith.<BR>
<BR>
If there is a mechanical system for opening the door than it comes down to<BR>
cutting the power to the doors locking mechanism so that you can operate the<BR>
manual.&nbsp; This usually wouldn't be too difficult.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
It's not too difficult to conceive of a lockout that knows the difference between a power failure and a someone cutting the supply to the locks mechanism. It may be as simple as having a number of different sensors located around the door. A person wishing to cut the power *only* to the doors mechanism must therefore be able to, effectively, remove the door from its setting. If they can do that then a lock isn't going to stop them getting in :).<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_ba.23b5ccdc.29dc9067_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bastardizing canonical ship prices
In-Reply-To: <200204030510.DFV03007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017853751.1367.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> laning <laning@wizard.net>  
> <snip size limits>
> 
> I think that limiting people to smaller ships really gives us 
> the "small ship" Traveller.

Unfortunately, it gives us the '50,000 small ships' traveller, which is in fact
worse for roleplaying than the '500 big ships' traveller.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215009.0283aec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017853921.54.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> Leonard Erickson, in replying to JimV said:
> 
> >BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
> >higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
> >artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
> >playing "grav pong" with hijackers.
> Sounds like we see it the same way.  Although +6 gees to -6 gees in less 
> than one second should be sufficient grav pong to deal with most hijackers.

I prefer to see grav compensation as being a side effect of the drives, which
means grav pong is impossible (well, artificial gravity can still be used, but
one can easily claim that it takes a while to cycle).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
References: <20020401153054.052ca61e.jenry023@student.liu.se> <008201c1d98f$07bb2320$219193c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020402195140.50a1fc15.jenry023@student.liu.se> <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020403012905.7cedabe6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CAB3843.2060604@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
>>reprinted in various places.
> 
> 
> I Google'd around, but all I could find was webpages mentioning it. It
> would seem that it is available in various paper reprints, but not on the
> web. Sad...


I have at least one of them at home. If it's easily accessible, I'll dig 
it out and see what's there.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (long) Re: inheritance Imperial style
In-Reply-To: <200204031616.DGS00004@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403112658.025000c0@pop.wizard.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
>Was just looking at various types of inheritance in history,
>and two were contrasted.  Gavelkind, where all sons share in
>the inheritance equally, and primogeniture, where only the
>eldest gets the goods.
>
>Apparently a driving force behind land acquisition, and when
>the land ran out, the seizure of land from others, was
>primogeniture.  It also provided knights for the Crusade.
IIRC, the Albigensian Crusade was the first Crusade.  It is probably most 
famous nowadays for providing us with the motto, "Kill them all, God will 
know his own."  People nowadays usually say 'sort them out' instead of 
'know his own', but it amounts to the same thing.

The reason for the famous quote was that the clergy accompanying the French 
knights were dismayed when they saw the French indiscriminately killing 
Albigensians who were quite possibly Christian.  Or even obviously 
Christian.  The French were largely motivated by wanting to take the land 
from their Albigensian neighbors, and the blessing from the Pope was merely 
the thinnest of rationalizations for their actions.  Once they were in the 
heat of action, they were even less concerned about needing a rationalization.

<<<snippage of a interesting passage too long to bear repeating>>>
>Given the nature of our maps in Traveller, could an
>empire "run out of land"?  Could the current empire be
>described as "hundreds of independent districts, each owned
>and rules by a local strong man (or government) in command of
>a small body of fighting men and a castle (a small army,
>navy, and starbases)"?
>
>I don't think I need the Virus to have the empire fall into
>another Long Night. Piracy at that point might be any ship
>with a weapon.

I agree that the threat of another Long Night exists without having to 
resort to a gross deus ex machina like the Virus.  (And I do mean 
gross.)  But most land within the Imperium belongs to the local 
government.  The Imperium only holds legal sway over the space between the 
stars and planets.  The Emperor can award fiefs, and they can be inherited, 
but I'm sure they very long ago ran out of land that could thus be owned 
and inherited.

What the Imperium possesses and the late medieval Europeans lacked are a 
sophisticated and robust economic system, and nonhereditary institutions 
(megacorps and the Navy) that share power with the nobility.  This things 
make all the difference.

The existence of much more complex and sophisticated economic mechanisms 
than tenth-century Europeans had means that land inheritance is not the 
main life blood of economics.  Extensive and fairly efficient markets exist 
for virtually everything, and capital is extremely liquid.  Land tends to 
be held by corporations, and if a corporation folds, there are bankruptcy 
regulations to oversee the distribution of assets, which go immediately 
back into the economy instead of being held closely held by one family.

The Emperors and Empresses make a point of retaining ultimate ownership of 
fiefs they award, and they can resume direct control of them at will.  A 
local noble who attempts to resist that will have to contend with a very 
powerful central Navy.  Not even in the case of the excellently written 
LandGrab of Vincennes can locals seriously hope to defy the Emperor, 
because of this powerful Navy.  Nobles jockey for power and influence over 
the Navy, and in times gone by there were even a series of Barracks 
Emperors who seized the iridium throne simply because they thought they 
could get away with it.  The Barracks Emperors each relied on fleets of the 
supposedly central Navy.

The emperors since have learned the lesson and maintain strong control of 
the Navy.  When the civil war following Strephon's assassination resulted 
in the Navy being fractured, that's only because the authors had gone to 
great pains to create the conditions for honest doubt among admirals over 
exactly who had the best legal claim.  Under normal conditions the Navy 
remains loyal to the throne.  The way I understand it, Dulinor's beef with 
Strephon was that he was encouraging sector dukes to become too powerful 
and that would lead to the danger of a breakup or civil war.  Ironically, 
Dulinor precipitated exactly what he said he was trying to 
prevent.  Although I suspect his ego clouded his judgment and his motives 
were less pure than he himself believed.

Power and ownership of assets are divided between the throne, corporations, 
and system governments.  Economic life is diverse, active, and fully 
developed.  The division of power and assets acts somewhat like the famous 
system of checks and balances between the three branches of government in 
the US.  The mature and sophisticated economic life prevents assets from 
becoming concentrated more and more into the hands of an hereditary few 
(unless you take your economics with a lump of Marxism :-) and thus 
becoming a scarcer and scarcer resource with this trend creating conflict 
over the scarcity.

In the absence of outside threat, the greatest danger that persists inside 
the Imperium is in its only major institution that is completely 
hereditary--selecting who sits on the throne.  A series of poor emperors, 
or even just one, could potentially wreak havoc on the other institutions 
that are the main props of the system.

I have demonstrated that the Imperium is held together and fluorishes 
because of its inherently stabilizing structure, and its good fortune to 
have sufficient population and technology and legal institutions that 
promote an economic structure capable of keeping the healthy flow of 
liquidity to all the centers of power within the Imperium.  Not bad, 
considering it's just rationalizing a _very_ fictional science fiction 
backstory that was mostly created as an excuse for roleplaying games that 
visit thousands of different worlds and thus thousands of different science 
fiction stories.  :->

Oh.  The nature of the maps in Traveller.  Megacorps should be falling all 
over themselves to expand into the areas beyond the frontier and either 
create their own puppet empires or bring them into the Imperial fold.  And 
they should be falling all over themselves and fighting each other for 
control and exploitation of resources in the bazillions of neglected 
"backwaters" within Imperial borders.  It should be something like the 
story of the American West from the advent of the railroad through the end 
of the century.  All the canonical indications are that unexploited planets 
tend to remain so for decades and centuries at a time.  That bothers me.  I 
think the original idea was to provide not just Victorians in space, but 
also a version of the wild and woolly frontier that the real Victorians had 
in the American West and to lesser degrees elsewhere around the 
globe.  That was to set the stage for referees to run their own campaigns 
that saw dramatic and interesting changes sweep across the map, with the 
players being part of all that.  As time progressed and more backstory of 
the Imperium was written things became more static.  Probably, the original 
strategic vision was somewhat lost in the tactics of customers clamoring 
for more information about the Imperium and places within the 
Imperium.  Pure speculation of course.  My record on pure speculation is 
less than reliable.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] inheritance Imperial style
References: <200204031616.DGS00004@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB3D63.2000904@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Such a state cannot maintain a navy, so the remnants of the 
> Carolingian empire were easy pickings for sea-borne raiders 
> from Scandinavia (the Vikings) and from North Africa (the 
> Saracens), as well as mounted raiders from central Asia (the 
> Magyars, or Hungarians)."
> 
> Given the nature of our maps in Traveller, could an 
> empire "run out of land"?  Could the current empire be 
> described as "hundreds of independent districts, each owned 
> and rules by a local strong man (or government) in command of 
> a small body of fighting men and a castle (a small army, 
> navy, and starbases)"?
> 
> I don't think I need the Virus to have the empire fall into 
> another Long Night. Piracy at that point might be any ship 
> with a weapon.

You just described the Aslan itahei.

Pirates at that point arent' pirates, but raiders, in the sense that 
they attack planets not other ships, which is an *entirely* different 
kettle of fish.

However, if you defind 'land' as 'someplace where you collect taxes from 
production thereon' The 3I will not run out of land anytime soon.

In addition to the vast number of underpoulated systems, belts, etc, 
'new' land can be constructed at any time, just about anywhere, via 
building space habs.

Building O'Neill-style colonies is cheap in Traveller.

Look at the costs of an asteroid hull, sometime...amazingly cheap.

Then, the scenario you described is amply laid out in 'Hard Times', and 
on one of the mother sources of Traveller, 'Space Vikings' by H. Beam 
Piper.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 09:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr  3 09:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <3CAB365A.5070001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <B8D08114.346CC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/3/02 9:05 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

> 
> There is speculation that they have been used, but in the commission of
> crimes. (good way to whack alarm systems.)

Aside from theory, has anyone actually tested a device of this kind?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <B8D08114.346CC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB45FC.5060802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 4/3/02 9:05 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:
> 
> 
>>There is speculation that they have been used, but in the commission of
>>crimes. (good way to whack alarm systems.)
> 
> 
> Aside from theory, has anyone actually tested a device of this kind?
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.

I remember reading someone's account of making and setting one off. He 
described stopping clocks and other electrical and electronic devices at 
a range of approx 1/4 mile. IIRC it was rather directional.

I don't, however, remember the reference, whether it was on the web or 
the list.

However, since making a pipe bomb is an integral part of making one of 
these devices, I suspect people are rather circumspect regarding their , 
ahh, experimentation along these lines...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402205809.027d9ba0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CABBC5E.30314.BCBF6D@localhost>

Hi all!

I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists 
Table (UTT), where you roll and a result like "Antagonist turns out 
to be Protagonist's long-lost relative" or "20 drunken goons ambush 
the PC on the way home" or whatever come up.  we could make a 
big UTT with a thousand or so entries so repeats are rare...

-- Rachel


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <182.62a974a.29dca666@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 22:58:51 GMT Daylight Time, 
ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:


> TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.  
> One
> assumes the neutron problems have been solved.
> 

Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing "up" 
to He4 :)

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 22:58:51 GMT Daylight Time, ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.&nbsp; One<BR>
assumes the neutron problems have been solved.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing "up" to He4 :)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_182.62a974a.29dca666_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
References: <182.62a974a.29dca666@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB4D53.2FCA27E3@premier.net>

Charles writes:

> TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to He4.  One
> assumes the neutron problems have been solved.

Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing
"up" to He4 :)

Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
opposed to deuterium or tritium)?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <200204031846.DGX03548@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Subject: Re: [TML] handy device  
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>
>Aside from theory, has anyone actually tested a device of 
this kind?
>--
There is supposed to be a test facility in New Mexico where 
several of these were fabricated and tested to see if it 
worked.  Not sure, but it might have been Kirtland AFB.

They are testing other types of electromagnetic weapons there.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:48:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:48:35 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <3CAB4D53.2FCA27E3@premier.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017859666.3145.ajackson@ping>

John Groth writes:
> Charles writes:
> 
> > TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to
> > He4.  One assumes the neutron problems have been solved.
> 
> Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing
> "up" to He4 :)
> 
> Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
> opposed to deuterium or tritium)?

No, P-P probably would be phosphorus.  I should have written p-p.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 10:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed Apr  3 10:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Accents and Bonuses
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402222929.02df3008@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402222929.02df3008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3cac4775.11204799@post.demon.co.uk>

Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:

>Well...given the 'canon' cold war setup, the Zho would have Russian =
Accents.
[...]
>Your basic heavy handed eastern European accent.

Of course...  The classic "Zhodani Philosophies" article in JTAS 23
can only be read with a really thick fake Russian accent:

"...contrary to what your holographic film directors seem to think, we
smile (and even laugh) as often as Imperials...
"...We are not robots.  Creativity, divergence of opinion, freedom of
expression... we have all of these within the Consulate.  Our
government is not oppressive...[...]  In return, our citizens respect,
obey and freely criticize their rulers (as is their duty)."

Stephen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
Message-ID: <53.14a0b708.29dcabc3@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 18:50:46 GMT Daylight Time, 
jenry023@student.liu.se writes:


> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
> function using radically different biochemistries?
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> 

Stanley Schmidts "Aliens and Alien Societies" is reasonably useful. It's 
available from Amazon and there's some intersting stuff floating around out 
on the web

http://library.thinkquest.org/C003763/index.php?page=index&tqskip1=1&
tqtime=0402

Is an example.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 18:50:46 GMT Daylight Time, jenry023@student.liu.se writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might<BR>
function using radically different biochemistries?<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Stanley Schmidts "Aliens and Alien Societies" is reasonably useful. It's available from Amazon and there's some intersting stuff floating around out on the web<BR>
<BR>
http://library.thinkquest.org/C003763/index.php?page=index&amp;tqskip1=1&amp;tqtime=0402<BR>
<BR>
Is an example.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_53.14a0b708.29dcabc3_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <20020403155041.62193.qmail@web11006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEOAGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

  MACessna wrote
  >>
  Please see below for comments......
  >>
--- John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Like I would guess many peoples did,
> MTU (tm) just grew, accreting layers
> and lumps as bright shiny things
> attracted my eyes.
>
> Well I've decided to do a new one up right.
> thinking about what final conditions I want
> then deciding what conditions are needed to
> create them.
>
> What I want
>
> a distant and non intrusive Imperium, with a
> vaguely libertarian outlook.
>
  >>
  I'm there.....
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

yeppers, I'm an old crack who likes the original CT setting

>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> a low powered environment, PC's are low level
> players on the galactic scene.
>
> The campaign is on a frontier, a la Spinward
>  Marches
>
  >>
  Kewl-ness......
  >>
>
> book two sized and powered ships are normal
> (without necessarily using LBB two starship
> design), economic and physical forces work
> against large ships.
>
  >>
  Very cool....
  >>
>
> Mil spec toys are rare
>
  >>
  Hmmm, verging on uh-oh....
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

People who strap on a PGMP-15 to go to the
'fresher annoy me,  IMTU they'll have to make
do with a shotgun.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Prices and rewards are at a level where
> a party could in game earn enough money to
> make down payment on a used starship and
> then keep up payments.
>
  >>
  Given that the starship economy of Book 2
essentially encourages charactors to skip on their
creditors, I'm SO there....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

traveller space ship, things you ride around
in until you run out of money (this applies to
riding or ownership).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  >>
>
> the interstellar iconology is healthy enough
> that a backwater system is looking at 10 or
> so ships a week (recalling that most ships
> tend to be small)
>
  >>
  See the 'coda' below under 'Conditions'....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
see below coda for my response

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  >>
>
> Mega-corps exist, but are far more important
> along main trade routes and major systems.
>
  >>
  OK...but you're hamstringing a good plot device...
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh they exist elsewhere, just they are less important

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
> 2 worlds
>
  >>
  .....YES!!!FINALLY!!!.....
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
have you ever seen my semi-regular Binges rant?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
> Conditions
>
> The imperium is interested in external defense,
> surveying and mapping, stable currency, internal
> communications.
>
> Imperial taxes are very low.
>
> Imperial currency is very stable, currency drafts
> are
> excepted Imperium wide.  Local currency is
> much less flexible and much less used.
>
> As an exception to the libertarianism of the
> Imperium,
> building large (spinal mount sized ) weapons is very
> restricted.  Likewise, brute force invasions of
> neighboring worlds is discouraged.
>
  >>
  The above points are already extant in the 3I,
IIRC......
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
yep and that I like ''cept mine is less present, systems
join and stay because of the currency union aspect alone
IFIAK.  That and the party favors given out on Fleet Day.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  >>
>
> Most systems military is Coast Guard, National Guard
> level stuff.  They are oriented to stopping raiders
> and internal affairs.
>
  >>
  That's how I've always viewed planetary forces...
  >>
>
> The Scout service is canon and very important, both
> as a survey operation and a communications office
>
  >>
  No worries here....
  >>
>
> While they can feed them selves, few systems are
> fully  self supporting in other areas, lacks and
> shortfalls are usually obtainable within a
> susbsector, with smaller ships this tends to pump up
> ship traffic.
>
> Development is concentrated in most cases to the
> main planet
> in system, the rest is unpatrolled and poorly
> explored.
>
  >>
  CODA: Why? At the level of shipping you're talking
about, the only way to ship useful quantities of
product is by BIG carriers(e.g., LASH-type
freighters).

  It's a lot more economical for a system government
to either encourage or subsidize[sp?] outer system
developement, either by gov't contractors or
(preferably) by 'native' belter-type operator's.
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In the long run they will develop. This is a frontier,
at this time sales are too small for many markets to
roll the own everything,  Imagine whole subsectors relying
on Yugotech ground cars, -- available in any color you
want as long as it's lime green.  aftermarket add-ons
are probably made locally.

This by the way is a reason for lots of smaller ships.  Dealers
of whatever take orders in small lots from the factory, smaller
tramps do just fine carrying the loads needed.  Think two or
thee car carrier semis scale to the dealership, not a bulk carrier
hauling all those car across the ocean.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Way / refueling stations exist in marginal systems
> where there
> are no colonies.  These system are very poorly
> explored, and
> lacking nice places for humans to live.
>
  >>
  Who pays for this? The only way to make it
economical enough to be of commercial utility (vs
skimming) is to lower the cost of the fuel provided by
the station's. If they (the ship-driver's) are charged
'market rates', the cost of this fuel will drive up
shipping costs to the point where merchants and
consumers at the recieving end won't be willing to
pay.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

They tend to be where classic trav might have a
lo pop lousy living condition planet,  They make
money because a ship saves however much time it
takes to go 100 d for a gas giant, wilderness
refuel, go back to 100 d's and process your fuel.

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  See 'CODA'...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

seperatish issue in my opinion, besides
they are a neat place for Ancient artifacts
to lurk.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
  >>
>
> The average campaign world is TL 12 and are lower
> end
> population, 5 - 8 (Population is the population
> living
> in system, on both sides of the of the XT line and
> including permanently stationed troops.  Any fancy
> arrangement is described in the system listing)
>
  >>
  Why so low?
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
somehow a population in the billion fails to jibe
with my vision of a frontier world, recall that
these are frontier worlds.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> High tech and high population world are hubs
> supporting
> surrounding lower tech and pop worlds.  Trade is
> usually
> surrounding -- Hub, and Hub -- Hub
>
  >>
  That's how it usually runs.....
  >>
>
> Absent local conditions against it, most worlds have
> about a type C space port.  Spaceports have the
> maintenance
> ability one level higher then their build ability.
>
  >>
  This has always been my biggest saw about starports
in Trav: Why are there so many 'D' and 'E' class
ports? With a comparitivley small amount of time and
money, upgrading to at least 'C-' is a pretty small
chore......
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

yep another SRR bait

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Ships last a long time, absent combat damage and
> with
> proper maintenance, a 200 year old freighter is
> still
> functional.
>
  >>
  That's how I always saw these ships....
  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I see Jamison's ship as 300 plus years old, his corp. bought it used and
used it hard on speculative runs

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> Technology is stable, the rough edges have been
> worn off most standard designs centuries ago.
>
> The Imperium makes public domain standardized plans
> for
> many thing available.  While local peculiarities
> exist,
> a surprisingly large number of items are
> standardized
> imperium wide. (unless of course it is for a plot
> point)
>
  >>
  I'm OK with the stability part. Isn't there
something in GT about a standardised set of plans?
  >>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Spaceport mention something like this I believe.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Pirates exists, not as ECMs but as semi organized
> groups
> in the fringes of the system.  A lot of time and
> effort
> of the local navies is spent chasing them down.
>
  >>
  Of course.
  >>
>
> jml
>
  >>
  MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
Message-ID: <e4.25704b2c.29dcb669@aol.com>

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Stomped on dupe names, got rid of those underscore characters, and
bumped up the pop and tech scores for a dozen or so worlds. See what
this gives us.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

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Avalon                0106  B767845-A   Ri                     623 So
Banners               0110  B645878-7                          824 So
Threshold             0121  B66735A-9   Lo Ni                  202 So
Carson                0123  B465888-9   Ri                     323 So
Victory               0124  C7955A7-6   Ag Ni                  422 So
Aphrodite             0125  C8B0243-9   De Lo Ni               924 So
Ryerson               0126  E592333-5   Lo Ni                  401 So
Barrens               0127  B241566-B   Ni Po                  224 So
Jewelbox              0128  B857457-C   Ni                     711 So
Ormuz                 0131  E460357-6   De Lo Ni               112 So
923-211               0139  X6B2000-0   Ba Fl                  420 Na
Morgan                0201  A7759BB-D   Hi In                  310 So
Euler                 0202  C21046A-A   Ni                     722 So
Urania                0203  B574755-B   Ag                     901 So
Arrakis               0206  B460858-C   De Ri                  422 So
Hesiod                0207  C56778C-8   Ag Ri                  225 So
Ehlai                 0211  AAC259B-D   Fl Ni                  700 So
Gamma                 0212  B642614-7   Ni Po                  124 So
Chiron                0217  B310788-9   Na                     904 So
Pericles              0220  B457404-C   Ni                     422 So
Omar                  0222  B596578-B N Ag Ni                  223 So
Absalom               0223  A578843-C                          933 So
Jackson               0224  C45367A-8   Ni Po                  325 So
Tau-Tau               0225  B000649-D N As Na Ni               210 So
Manuel                0226  A445788-9   Ag                     323 So
Tudor                 0227  B627599-9   Ni                     324 So
Samarkand             0228  B461766-9   Ri                     214 So
Wunderland            0233  E868443-7   Ni                     833 Na
896-917               0234  E364000-0   Ba                     725 Na
899-491               0235  XAA6000-0   Ba Fl                  123 Na
Hawking               0236  B776553-9   Ag Ni                  723 Na
Tombs                 0301  C310730-A   Na                     202 So
Novy Mir              0302  A96A883-C N Ri Wa                  624 So
Galileo               0304  C100662-9   Na Ni Va               534 So
Samson                0310  B6687B6-7   Ag                     301 So
Ceres                 0312  A677878-A                          422 So
Kant                  0316  B445856-9                          624 So
Elnath                0317  B000766-D N As Na                  533 So
Sultana               0319  B544622-9   Ag Ni                  334 So
Haven                 0325  B658668-8   Ag Ni                  923 So
Spencer               0326  B260337-8   De Lo Ni               714 So
Enterprise            0327  A877663-8   Ag Ni                  722 So
Cascade               0328  B69A730-8   Wa                     434 So
Nelson                0331  A55A799-D   Wa                     923 So
Lammas                0332  B24478A-A   Ag                     922 So
Vixen                 0333  C474225-6   Lo Ni                  122 Na
Shuanyun              0334  CAC0514-C   De Ni                  615 Na
Accident              0340  D371356-6   Lo Ni                  824 Na
Saladin               0412  B353869-A   Po                     113 So
Hadrian               0415  C51465A-8   Ic Ni                  935 So
Nakamura              0418  C10049A-B   Ni Va                  602 So
New Pretoria          0424  B643866-9   Po                     524 So
Pele                  0426  A998534-8   Ag Ni                  410 So
Themis                0428  C9A5168-9   Fl Lo Ni               324 So
Storm                 0431  A897676-B   Ag Ni                  823 So
Gateway               0434  E357413-8   Ni                     510 Na
885-644               0436  E666000-0   Ba                     724 Na
Shah's World          0437  E616100-8   Ic Lo Ni               700 Na
Fortuna               0505  B896856-9                          725 So
Isis                  0508  B696653-A N Ag Ni                  511 So
Tellus                0511  A986976-B N Hi                     704 So
Ozymandias            0512  A7A387A-B   Fl                     703 So
Bismarck              0518  B679845-6                          524 So
Ekaterina             0519  A877789-9   Ag                     500 So
Terminus              0521  B410451-9   Ni                     203 So
Athens                0527  A684958-D   Hi                     824 So
Breslau               0531  A5646AC-8   Ag Ni                  501 So
Taurea                0532  A4569C9-D N Hi                     423 So
893-368               0537  XAB4000-0   Ba Fl                  900 Na
New Lyon              0606  B642998-B   Hi In Po               700 So
Prime                 0608  C8A5656-A   Fl Ni                  600 So
Sun Tzu               0611  A778569-A   Ag Ni                  913 So
Horizon               0615  A541221-A N Lo Ni Po               534 So
Felicity              0617  B5338AD-B   Na Po                  103 So
Plateau               0618  B9D789B-6   Fl                     624 So
Rhodes                0620  A000988-E   As Hi In Na            823 So
Fermat                0624  C5259A9-A   Hi In                  713 So
Provence              0625  A365534-D   Ag Ni                  934 So
Goliath               0631  BA959DC-6   Hi In                  723 So
905-404               0633  X6A0000-0   Ba De                  823 Na
Solitude              0635  B353200-C   Lo Ni Po               424 Na
Euxene                0703  A7979BD-A   Hi In                  823 So
Lyrane                0705  B000734-D N As Na                  503 So
Abaddon               0713  B6A459B-8   Fl Ni                  510 So
Churchill             0720  A655951-E   Hi                     422 So
Sydney                0721  A357789-C N Ag                     503 So
Outpost               0724  A10069C-E   Na Ni Va               804 So
Union                 0725  A424999-E N Hi In                  922 So
Pacifica              0728  A85A424-E   Ni Wa                  703 So
Hadley                0731  B574663-8   Ag Ni                  700 So
Pella                 0732  C300655-B   Na Ni Va               821 So
Harbinger             0735  B220646-C   De Na Ni Po            232 Na
Abydos                0736  D254545-7   Ag Ni                  213 Na
Shaitan               0739  E580131-2   De Lo Ni               700 Na
Farwold               0801  A445645-A   Ag Ni                  525 So
Maharani              0804  B64566A-7   Ag Ni                  535 So
Montrose              0809  A5548AA-8                          800 So
Anjou                 0818  B426985-D   Hi In                  402 So
Nueva Brasilia        0820  A884ACE-C   Hi                     200 So
Caledonia             0821  A797977-D   Hi In                  124 So
Dante                 0822  D8B9201-A   Fl Lo Ni               823 So
Tatiana               0826  B300587-B   Ni Va                  824 So
Daikoku               0829  A8589A7-C   Hi                     723 So
Izanagi               0830  A448973-B N Hi In                  804 So
Musashi               0833  B100558-C   Ni Va                  121 Na
Rhiannon              0835  B785655-A   Ag Ni Ri               522 Na
Babur                 0837  B55447A-B   Ni                     412 Na
Monterey              0907  A110987-E   Hi In Na               321 So
Twilight              0912  A8949A7-9   Hi In                  524 So
Albion                0921  B6569AA-9   Hi                     921 So
Europa                0923  A868AB8-E   Hi                     104 So
Hotei                 0927  A7B3435-D   Fl Ni                  802 So
Yawata                0929  C434879-9                          310 So
Tenjin                0930  A246431-E   Ni                     624 So
892-834               0934  X9B7000-0   Ba Fl                  320 Na
Carthage              0938  C110334-A   Lo Ni                  200 Na
889-056               0939  X411000-0   Ba Ic                  923 Na
Aldebaran             1002  A000752-E   As Na                  734 So
Rowan                 1004  A300589-A   Ni Va                  735 So
Home                  1009  A86699A-E N Hi                     320 So
Virgil                1014  A998855-9                          312 So
Gilead                1015  B433753-B   Na Po                  624 So
Nodens                1016  A210426-A   Ni                     823 So
Albion                1022  A547A7A-C N Hi In                  310 So
Covenant              1023  A696945-E   Hi In                  423 So
Pasquale              1024  A1007CD-C   Na Va                  524 So
Paradox               1036  B256734-9   Ag                     911 Na
923-438               1040  E559000-0   Ba                     910 Na
Marduk                1101  B3519BA-C N Hi Po                  804 So
Bogatyr               1104  A573875-D                          520 So
Pronea                1105  A211656-A   Ic Na Ni               912 So
Romulus               1110  A997500-B   Ag Ni                  523 So
Cahokia               1112  B454789-A   Ag                     222 So
Camelot               1115  A766546-A   Ag Ni                  124 So
Qadesh                1117  B889544-8   Ni                     600 So
Bonita                1118  C757765-3   Ag                     304 So
Tharsis               1119  B425579-C N Ni                     622 So
Pax                   1120  B100676-C   Na Ni Va               810 So
Newmark               1122  AA6A99B-E   Hi Wa                  100 So
Lagrange              1123  B798879-7                          600 So
Ransom                1125  A5507B8-9   De Po                  224 So
Yamato                1128  A878A9C-E N Hi In                  124 So
Serendip              1131  A7586A9-8   Ag Ni                  810 So
Cheyenne              1135  B765644-A   Ag Ni Ri               412 Na
Nix                   1136  C100569-C   Ni Va                  725 Na
Beowulf               1138  D436674-8   Ni                     734 Na
Gwydion               1139  B69778A-A   Ag                     424 Na
Bleak                 1140  C551331-6   Lo Ni Po               723 Na
Kronos                1202  C400333-8   Lo Ni Va               700 So
Atlantis              1204  A85A974-C   Hi Wa                  620 So
Shulaakish            1205  B566898-9   Ri                     500 So
715-306               1207  E8A5000-0   Ba Fl                  424 So
Thalna                1208  B501374-C   Ic Lo Ni Va            233 So
Marava                1210  A787999-E   Hi                     123 So
Ares                  1211  A450983-C   De Hi Po               303 So
Bitter                1212  A324459-E N Ni                     624 So
Daedalus              1213  A759788-D                          424 So
New Sylea             1216  C988686-5   Ag Ni Ri               525 So
Matuya                1217  B210210-9   Lo Ni                  724 So
Bayern                1220  A576836-7                          624 So
Veracruz              1221  A648955-C   Hi In                  602 So
Heimdall              1223  A886A77-E   Hi                     222 So
Wells                 1224  A746784-8   Ag                     720 So
Kensho                1228  C514350-9   Ic Lo Ni               303 So
Kingston              1230  C7A5133-9   Fl Lo Ni               824 So
Laplace               1231  D334320-8   Lo Ni                  513 So
Malory                1236  C691110-8   Lo Ni                  300 Na
Voltaire              1237  A361578-E   Ni                     600 Na
Napoli                1306  A666876-C   Ri                     124 So
Athos                 1310  C6466BD-3   Ag Ni                  834 So
Perdition             1312  A310310-D   Lo Ni                  711 So
Ghazi                 1313  B543225-9   Lo Ni Po               302 So
Plutarch              1314  D100256-A   Lo Ni Va               222 So
Caliburn              1316  B442422-9   Ni Po                  302 So
Salvador              1320  A2219DF-E   Hi In Na Po            100 So
Hanover               1322  B656754-9 N Ag                     521 So
Garibaldi             1325  BA99688-7   Ni                     802 So
Terra Nova            1326  A758AB7-C   Hi                     234 So
Chasm                 1329  CAA559C-A   Fl Ni                  422 So
Teilhard              1330  C432356-E   Lo Ni Po               514 So
Invictus              1331  B767889-7   Ri                     924 So
Stone                 1337  C200566-9   Ni Va                  624 Na
Masada                1338  A78768C-A   Ag Ni Ri               625 Na
Zion                  1404  A7769A8-A   Hi In                  412 So
Bran                  1405  B865858-C   Ri                     733 So
Olympus               1406  A8D5755-E N Fl                     724 So
Megiddo               1414  B101656-C   Ic Na Ni Va            302 So
Sapphire              1415  A86A633-C N Ni Wa                  624 So
Castile               1419  A6545A9-8   Ag Ni                  324 So
Bastion               1420  A00088D-E   As Na                  711 So
Thule                 1424  A52499C-A   Hi In                  622 So
Crossroads            1426  A8C4301-E N Fl Lo Ni               524 So
Diamond               1428  B628775-8                          321 So
920-226               1435  E586000-0   Ba                     123 Na
Myrddin               1437  C442226-7   Lo Ni Po               600 Na
Cain                  1438  D64A5A6-9   Ni Wa                  902 Na
Selene                1502  A200A89-E N Hi In Na Va            112 So
Poe                   1504  C100257-B   Lo Ni Va               224 So
Apotheosis            1506  A5258DC-B                          510 So
Arda                  1509  X7868AE-2                        R 514 So
Stavros               1512  B533444-C   Ni Po                  324 So
Timur                 1513  D571520-3   Ni                     423 So
Amaranth              1518  C465375-9   Lo Ni                  724 So
Tide                  1522  X65A520-3   Ni Wa                R 902 So
Serai                 1525  B4107BA-B   Na                     622 So
Landfall              1527  A896ACB-E   Hi In                  210 So
Bell                  1528  A428551-D   Ni                     621 So
Lakota                1529  B625630-9   Ni                     434 So
Uriel                 1534  C110242-A   Lo Ni                  623 Na
917-244               1537  X500000-0   Ba Va                  425 Na
Woden                 1539  AA76548-9   Ag Ni                  900 Na
Kupala                1540  C765332-5   Lo Ni                  322 Na
Albadawi              1603  A686885-A   Ri                     934 So
Trimurti              1604  A67798C-D   Hi In                  623 So
Jabru                 1605  B300658-D   Na Ni Va               312 So
Shamash               1611  B9A2667-9   Fl Ni                  103 So
Tintanon              1613  B331233-B   Lo Ni Po               223 So
Razana                1614  B856ACC-C   Hi                     202 So
Alamut                1620  B410587-D N Ni                     224 So
Sheol                 1622  B130557-A   De Ni Po               123 So
Tristan               1623  B772741-9                          823 So
Iskander              1624  A684535-9   Ag Ni                  810 So
Xanthus               1627  B535436-9   Ni                     100 So
Desolation            1629  A6A0620-9   De Ni                  920 So
Kinnison              1636  B411652-B   Ic Na Ni               725 Na
Arcadia               1702  A56678B-B   Ag Ri                  204 So
Dar al-Islam          1703  B979A87-B   Hi In                  123 So
Veldt                 1708  X46397B-3   Hi                   R 835 So
Pugu                  1709  A300768-B   Na Va                  624 So
Inverness             1710  B342566-A   Ni Po                  322 So
Sparta                1711  A2306AC-A N De Na Ni Po            203 So
Verda                 1712  B300622-9   Na Ni Va               834 So
Iolanthe              1722  E478575-5   Ag Ni                  600 So
Indra                 1725  B225643-B   Ni                     111 So
Deseret               1727  B574A7B-A   Hi In                  112 So
Columbia              1728  B446677-B   Ag Ni                  635 So
Telluride             1730  A232A99-E N Hi Na Po               234 So
Arizona               1731  E460652-3   De Ni Ri               224 So
Clarke                1735  C99A636-7   Ni Wa                  100 Na
Merope                1739  E110102-9   Lo Ni                  523 Na
Lisbon                1740  C576444-8   Ni                     300 Na
Altai                 1802  A552876-8   Po                     921 So
Firebird              1804  C575775-7   Ag                     425 So
Brisbane              1806  A8A4400-D   Fl Ni                  223 So
Gizeh                 1810  C553786-5   Po                     204 So
Concord               1818  B5637AA-8                          624 So
Bastet                1819  A330787-A   De Na Po               624 So
Rajastan              1824  C756769-8   Ag                     313 So
Franklin              1829  A8899BB-A   Hi                     610 So
New Nairobi           1830  A3307BC-A   De Na Po               723 So
890-218               1833  X100000-0   Ba Va                  100 Na
Nantucket             1835  C97A210-D   Lo Ni Wa               803 Na
Destiny               1837  D878202-5   Lo Ni                  824 Na
954-490               1839  X8C0000-0   Ba De                  923 Na
Batavia               1902  A9A389B-C N Fl                     924 So
Benedict              1909  A697888-A                          324 So
Malabar               1910  A635567-B   Ni                     803 So
Lorelei               1917  A779457-D   Ni                     924 So
Alilat                1918  B669553-D   Ni                     514 So
Hardship              1919  C5A5312-A   Fl Lo Ni               523 So
Chandra               1924  A310443-E   Ni                     434 So
Pandora               1927  A645ABA-E N Hi In                  200 So
Fraser                1929  B642510-B   Ni Po                  314 So
Kalahari              1935  A460654-B   De Ni Ri               223 Na
918-323               1936  X222000-0   Ba Po                  824 Na
921-997               1937  X8A7000-0   Ba Fl                  810 Na
Damnation             1938  E437435-9   Ni                     521 Na
Plato                 1940  D878220-6   Lo Ni                  324 Na
Muscovy               2002  B876845-A                          124 So
Tesla                 2004  A474A9A-E   Hi In                  204 So
Huaxia                2007  A7789AC-D   Hi In                  325 So
Turing                2010  A34569B-B   Ag Ni                  602 So
Medina                2018  B897887-A N                        724 So
Amida                 2019  C330769-8   De Na Po               934 So
Tagore                2020  A86887A-B   Ri                     224 So
Tormance              2022  AA68AAB-E   Hi                     100 So
Surya                 2023  B997878-B N                        623 So
Mu                    2024  C799498-5   Ni                     900 So
Denali                2027  B539675-8   Ni                     900 So
St. Thomas            2030  B657878-A                          814 So
Pytheas               2035  B5536A9-8   Ni Po                  434 Na
Dis                   2038  E200210-9   Lo Ni Va               411 Na
Baal                  2040  B45048C-9   De Ni Po               422 Na
Kashgar               2102  C534778-8                          110 So
Mictlan               2104  B200404-9   Ni Va                  303 So
Newcastle             2106  B5438BD-8   Po                     713 So
Wovoka                2107  A88A997-E N Hi Wa                  434 So
Memnon                2111  A657655-A   Ag Ni                  821 So
Justinian             2115  C66755A-8   Ag Ni                  902 So
Hector                2116  A200557-D   Ni Va                  314 So
Minos                 2117  X385654-2   Ag Ni Ri             R 223 So
Canyon                2125  BAF5677-7   Fl Ni                  202 So
Refuge                2127  A100A79-E   Hi In Na Va            223 So
Barbary               2128  C6B0622-9   De Ni                  423 So
Armstrong             2132  E110562-9   Ni                     700 So
Scatters              2133  B0008AD-D   As Na                  801 So
890-595               2135  X7C0000-0   Ba De                  300 Na
931-538               2140  E657000-0   Ba                     924 Na
Taliesin              2201  B756833-5                          302 So
Renault               2203  B678755-A   Ag                     133 So
Malta                 2205  A96A877-C N Ri Wa                  101 So
Sabah                 2206  B626755-A                          224 So
Newton                2208  B466945-9   Hi                     222 So
Lucifer               2209  C793432-7   Ni                     100 So
Echo                  2212  A00098A-E N As Hi In Na            533 So
Tecumseh              2213  A777720-C   Ag                     424 So
Tanaroa               2214  C76A563-7   Ni Wa                  902 So
Canaan                2216  A878684-C   Ag Ni                  835 So
Kepler                2218  B000759-B   As Na                  110 So
Rama                  2220  A893678-8   Ni                     323 So
Kashmir               2223  A644976-A   Hi In                  502 So
Faraway               2230  C33568A-9   Ni                     923 So
Wolfe                 2233  A363535-E N Ni                     724 So
911-241               2234  X8A4000-0   Ba Fl                  512 Na
Koshchei              2235  C523212-9   Lo Ni Po               502 Na
Masaya                2239  CAD9356-9   Fl Lo Ni               300 Na
Nzame                 2240  E896233-7   Lo Ni                  104 Na
Temujin               2302  BAB5587-C   Fl Ni                  814 So
Wilkes                2303  D100656-A   Na Ni Va               400 So
Kalmar                2307  A775622-B   Ag Ni                  113 So
Deirdre               2312  X897254-3   Lo Ni                R 101 So
Brilliant             2313  B529999-B   Hi In                  620 So
Anansi                2315  A989451-E   Ni                     324 So
Arjuna                2320  A514652-A   Ic Ni                  504 So
Bharat                2324  A564A9C-E N Hi                     124 So
Touchdown             2339  C8A0301-9   De Lo Ni               723 Na
Ganymede              2340  C410355-B   Lo Ni                  202 Na
Princeton             2403  D412264-7   Ic Lo Ni               122 So
Hermes                2405  B7989BB-9   Hi In                  224 So
Enoch                 2409  B8669B8-A N Hi                     220 So
Paravel               2414  E410157-9   Lo Ni                  910 So
Cybele                2416  A9D899A-A   Fl Hi                  303 So
Guinee                2417  C86A8DF-8   Wa                     300 So
Ariadne               2428  C697667-8   Ag Ni                  201 So
Iona                  2429  A464420-9   Ni                     323 So
Tyre                  2431  A588452-E N Ni                     622 So
Drab                  2432  B430456-B   De Ni Po               602 So
Tintagel              2438  C410201-C   Lo Ni                  913 Na
Sebastos              2502  A566886-B   Ri                     222 So
Locke                 2503  C30077B-A   Na Va                  401 So
Antiquity             2505  A5A2354-E   Fl Lo Ni               300 So
Phaedra               2506  A310855-A   Na                     234 So
Jacaranda             2508  B400678-B   Na Ni Va               924 So
Anderson              2511  A465557-E   Ag Ni                  722 So
Avesta                2512  A62569B-B   Ni                     723 So
Lawrence              2513  B300887-C   Na Va                  703 So
Seraph                2515  C494769-6   Ag                     123 So
Maidan                2517  D200525-9   Ni Va                  124 So
New Hawaii            2518  A67A99A-E   Hi In Wa               514 So
Carnelian             2522  C511438-A   Ic Ni                  134 So
Laomedon              2523  C220387-B   De Lo Ni Po            424 So
Wormwood              2524  C210645-8   Na Ni                  934 So
Jericho               2532  C400465-B   Ni Va                  803 So
936-125               2536  X200000-0   Ba Va                  224 Na
Yama                  2538  C324322-A   Lo Ni                  222 Na
Aztlan                2601  B9898CC-6                          425 So
Helicon               2606  C869773-5   Ri                     113 So
The Realm             2608  A665ADB-C   Hi                     324 So
Ulysses               2613  A75A754-B N Wa                     624 So
Rand                  2614  B322720-8   Na Po                  902 So
Ratri                 2619  C410689-9   Na Ni                  224 So
New Vantage           2620  C9DA477-9   Fl Ni Wa               912 So
Teela                 2621  A444457-C   Ni                     120 So
Coventry              2624  A596687-8   Ag Ni                  424 So
Devaki                2625  A78A7A5-D   Wa                     124 So
Ahriman               2635  B623200-C   Lo Ni Po               834 Na
899-034               2636  X632000-0   Ba Po                  524 Na
Providence            2637  B474424-7   Ni                     925 Na
Amber                 2702  A64699A-E N Hi In                  733 So
Zarathustra           2703  C100858-C   Na Va                  224 So
Arrian                2704  B8B3567-9   Fl Ni                  420 So
Catalunya             2707  B44499C-8   Hi In                  624 So
Aeolus                2708  B766577-6   Ag Ni                  423 So
Botany Bay            2709  B66A944-A N Hi Wa                  220 So
Attica                2717  C325899-9                          525 So
Bazaar                2720  AAB9333-E   Fl Lo Ni               523 So
Saranaki              2722  A41088B-A N Na                     224 So
St. Elias             2726  E220120-9   De Lo Ni Po            610 So
Basilisk              2728  C6737B6-4                          610 So
Outfield              2732  B330323-D   De Lo Ni Po            820 Na
Last Chance           2735  E454253-5   Lo Ni                  923 Na
Bethel                2739  C200200-8   Lo Ni Va               302 Na
Jamshyd               2802  C545566-6   Ag Ni                  523 So
Lynne                 2804  A230556-D   De Ni Po               722 So
Freehold              2806  A654200-B   Lo Ni                  702 So
Tanil                 2813  D696342-6   Lo Ni                  724 So
Buku                  2816  C447688-4   Ag Ni                  900 So
Tyrone                2823  C514543-9   Ic Ni                  734 So
867-853               2824  E410000-0   Ba                     720 So
Gryphon               2825  A984579-B   Ag Ni                  724 So
Manticore             2827  B668513-A   Ag Ni                  624 So
Lilith                2829  E8A6200-8   Fl Lo Ni               225 So
Cyrano                2830  B100201-C N Lo Ni Va               102 So
Libertad              2835  C6598DF-6                          514 Na
Aimend                2836  B685400-A   Ni                     423 Na
Borges                2904  A675922-E   Hi In                  125 So
Paulette              2905  C506385-8   Ic Lo Ni Va            622 So
Alphard               2906  B7A2320-B   Fl Lo Ni               724 So
Kodiak                2907  C876565-5   Ag Ni                  124 So
Ekera                 2912  A400477-B N Ni Va                  120 So
King                  2913  B6B5300-D   Fl Lo Ni               424 So
Hestia                2914  B553553-7   Ni Po                  900 So
Sphinx                2924  B53557B-C   Ni                     824 So
Natal                 2928  D639154-9   Lo Ni                  424 So
Meade                 2932  A200622-B   Na Ni Va               334 Na
941-240               2940  X200000-0   Ba Va                  613 Na
Nesia                 3005  A98A665-9   Ni Ri Wa               623 So
Khemet                3008  CA59984-9   Hi                     723 So
New Salem             3010  B685888-8   Ri                     534 So
Freisen               3019  C687687-4   Ag Ni Ri               912 So
Leviathan             3022  B599525-9   Ni                     123 So
Camlann               3023  B465245-B   Lo Ni                  124 So
Saarinen              3024  C97A565-8   Ni Wa                  422 So
928-749               3025  E210000-0   Ba                     124 So
928-826               3026  E424000-0   Ba                     410 So
Exile                 3028  D88A200-9   Lo Ni Wa               823 So
Xinjiang              3030  B461497-8   Ni                     103 So
Verge                 3034  B55669B-A   Ag Ni                  225 Na
965-736               3036  E57A000-0   Ba Wa                  603 Na
Argos                 3104  A000563-E N As Ni                  914 So
Xanadu                3106  A886444-A   Ni                     922 So
Firdausi              3107  A778ABF-C   Hi In                  224 So
Danaus                3113  D566688-6   Ag Ni Ri               634 So
Oceanus               3115  AA7A411-E   Ni Wa                  900 So
Coburg                3116  C544766-5   Ag                     423 So
Lysander              3118  A000977-D N As Hi In Na            625 So
831-221               3124  E534000-0   Ba                     402 So
Rashnu                3125  C546251-8   Lo Ni                  621 So
Starkad               3126  C898646-4   Ag Ni                  733 So
Theodosius            3131  B7B2321-C   Fl Lo Ni               421 So
944-270               3135  E476000-0   Ba                     913 Na
Etain                 3202  B776777-9   Ag                     522 So
New Beijing           3203  C524632-8   Ni                     110 So
Styx                  3205  B5A0745-9   De                     823 So
Lamia                 3206  C200589-9   Ni Va                  622 So
Freya                 3209  B765AAA-9   Hi                     134 So
Cilicia               3215  C5846A7-5   Ag Ni                  222 So
Faust                 3216  A647410-D   Ni                     524 So
Elysium               3218  B755576-8   Ag Ni                  912 So
856-015               3228  X8C8000-0   Ba Fl                  514 So
Elis                  3233  C5597AE-4                          224 Na
Forward               3234  B524444-C   Ni                     623 Na
--part1_e4.25704b2c.29dcb669_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 11:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
Message-ID: <164.b8cd038.29dcb7e0@aol.com>

Oh, bloody hell.

Ignore that, everyone. Was meant for private email.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:33:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:33:44 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
Message-ID: <200204032032.DHB01917@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

JFZeigler@aol.com  says
>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur 
>historian, freelance writer, occasional scribbler of bad 
>poetry

At least you're not a stand-up philosopher.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
Message-ID: <126.e80c5ee.29dcc2a2@aol.com>

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In a message dated 03/04/02 00:50:39 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


> > _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
> > mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
> > reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
> > but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
> > 
> > [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.
> 
> Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are
> interfertile.
> 

Depends on what you mean by "interfertile" some species (including ones with 
differing numbers of chromosomes) can interbreed but not produce fertile 
young.

The horse family is the classic example of this (horse (64 chromosomes) + 
donkey (62 chromosomes) = mule (63 chromosomes)), although interbreeding of 
captive big cats is not uncommon. Interestingly I'm not aware of any great 
ape interbreeding.

If you mean interbreed and produce fertile young there's a question over 
whether most of the subspecies of human could. Genetic drift after three 
hundred thousand years or so of isolation is likely to have had some 
interesting consequences. Genetic engineering of seperated groups by assorted 
Ancients is unlikely to have helped.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:50:39 GMT Daylight Time, webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been<BR>
&gt; mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the<BR>
&gt; reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,<BR>
&gt; but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.<BR>
<BR>
Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are<BR>
interfertile.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Depends on what you mean by "interfertile" some species (including ones with differing numbers of chromosomes) can interbreed but not produce fertile young.<BR>
<BR>
The horse family is the classic example of this (horse (64 chromosomes) + donkey (62 chromosomes) = mule (63 chromosomes)), although interbreeding of captive big cats is not uncommon. Interestingly I'm not aware of any great ape interbreeding.<BR>
<BR>
If you mean interbreed and produce fertile young there's a question over whether most of the subspecies of human could. Genetic drift after three hundred thousand years or so of isolation is likely to have had some interesting consequences. Genetic engineering of seperated groups by assorted Ancients is unlikely to have helped.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_126.e80c5ee.29dcc2a2_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <3CAB69B2.95EE7DA@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>
> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
> 2 worlds
>
  >>
  .....YES!!!FINALLY!!!.....

[I think] John-Martin wrote:
>have you ever seen my semi-regular Binges rant?

Actually, I think I missed it. 

As a representative of a low pop world, I want to hear 
more about this.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 12:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 12:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <200204032049.DHB04097@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

><snippage>
>> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
>> 2 worlds
>>

I always thought that these were either scientific 
establishments - OR -

Laning's Retirement Palace
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:00:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 13:00:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Questions, questions
Message-ID: <172.62e952a.29dcc73c@aol.com>

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In a message dated 02/04/02 19:53:37 GMT Daylight Time, 
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:


> > 1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to 
> > remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible
> 
> Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's 
> ridiculous as well. Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens, 
> H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.

Are you sure you mean H. hablis? Evolved circa 2.2 myr ago died out probably 
around 1.5 - 1.6 myr ago AFAIK.

The candidates as far as I see it are H. heidelbergensis, H. neatherthalensis 
or H. erectus. Neanderthals and erectus are both probably poor choices which 
leaves us with H. heidelbergensis, which is logical since heidelbergensis 
used to be known as archaic homo sapiens. 

> 
> A more logical explanation would be that Gramps took H. hablis, geneered 
> the species into H. sap, and re-seeded Terra, as well as Zhodane and 
> Vland (and all the other planets) with the new species.
> 
> Would explain some of the more puzzling aspects of our evolution...
> 
This is almost certainly it since H. heidelbergensis is probably the direct 
ancestor of H. sapiens.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 02/04/02 19:53:37 GMT Daylight Time, johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; 1) Which hominid species are the vilani and zhodani evolved from? Seem to <BR>
&gt; remember it's Homo Sapiens but that isnae possible<BR>
<BR>
Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's <BR>
ridiculous as well. Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens, <BR>
H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Are you sure you mean H. hablis? Evolved circa 2.2 myr ago died out probably around 1.5 - 1.6 myr ago AFAIK.<BR>
<BR>
The candidates as far as I see it are H. heidelbergensis, H. neatherthalensis or H. erectus. Neanderthals and erectus are both probably poor choices which leaves us with H. heidelbergensis, which is logical since heidelbergensis used to be known as archaic homo sapiens. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
A more logical explanation would be that Gramps took H. hablis, geneered <BR>
the species into H. sap, and re-seeded Terra, as well as Zhodane and <BR>
Vland (and all the other planets) with the new species.<BR>
<BR>
Would explain some of the more puzzling aspects of our evolution...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
This is almost certainly it since H. heidelbergensis is probably the direct ancestor of H. sapiens.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_172.62e952a.29dcc73c_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 13:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
Message-ID: <175.62e4c55.29dcca53@aol.com>

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In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk 
writes:


> >Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
> >ridiculous as well.
> 
> No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H. 
> erectus_
> and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
> actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
> it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
> showing up as early as that.

H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say 
I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H. 
sapiens back that far. If by archaic H. sapiens you mean H. heidelbergensis 
then you're right.

> 
> But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
> tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In
> the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place
> _H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.

True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are 
descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even 
more arrogant than they already are.

> 
> >Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens,
> >H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.
> 
> _H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
> mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
> reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
> but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
> 
> [*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.
> 
> 
> Hans
> 

The Solomani Institute of Extraterrestrial Human Studies votes for H. 
heidelbergensis zhodotlas and H. heidelbergensis vlandensis :)

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's<BR>
&gt;ridiculous as well.<BR>
<BR>
No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H. erectus_<BR>
and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That<BR>
actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing<BR>
it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_<BR>
showing up as early as that.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H. sapiens back that far. If by archaic H. sapiens you mean H. heidelbergensis then you're right.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up<BR>
tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In<BR>
the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place<BR>
_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even more arrogant than they already are.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
&gt;Per canon, they are indeed subspecies of H. sapiens,<BR>
&gt;H. sapiens zhodanii H. sapiens vilani.<BR>
<BR>
_H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been<BR>
mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the<BR>
reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,<BR>
but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.<BR>
<BR>
[*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hans<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
The Solomani Institute of Extraterrestrial Human Studies votes for H. heidelbergensis zhodotlas and H. heidelbergensis vlandensis :)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_175.62e4c55.29dcca53_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 13:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr  3 13:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <20020402201432.444efd17.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEKEDJAA.tml@downport.com>

All of the news that's fit to print, of course. But ideas already on the
table are posted at http://www.jtas.org/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=40

and yes, poly-tics needs to be woven through the whole organization. For
instance, not just anyone can join the TAS. You must roll to avoid the
blacklist... and who maintains this mysterious list?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

How much material are you aiming at? What kind?

I imagine TAS could be used as an alternative to the intrigues among the
noble families. After all, the idle rich are always a good source for
strife. Just look at the old-school soap operas (Dallas, Falcon Crest,
etc) out there...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Corridor PBEM, or What Happens When You Retire
Message-ID: <200204032215.DHD09409@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

If you're interested and already sent me an e-mail, please re-
confirm by sending me your character. If you are just 
interested, please send me your character.  Please use CT 
LBB, Book4, 5, Scouts, Merchant Prince, or Citizens.

The campaign begins at a beautiful retirement enclave, built 
by a previous band of adventurers who initially made their 
fortune during the Fifth Frontier War.  Various adventurers 
have been attracted to, and joined the enclave in their 
retirement.  The enclave has been a patron to other 
adventurers as well.

More on the enclave and its location in a moment...
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Universal TwistsTable
Message-ID: <20020403.143010.-258599.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

Rachel

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 02:37:18 +0800 "Rachel Kronick"
<rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net> writes:
> Hi all!
> 
> I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists 
> Table (UTT), where you roll and a result like "Antagonist turns out 
> to be Protagonist's long-lost relative" or "20 drunken goons ambush 
> the PC on the way home" or whatever come up.  we could make a 
> big UTT with a thousand or so entries so repeats are rare...
> 
> -- 

Sounds like a great idea, run with it...

I can't think of any at the moment, my brain needs a jump start. Perhaps
posting ideas will inspire others [including myself] to think up a few,
then you could develop the table from the plentiful results, after all,
it was your idea.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
In-Reply-To: <3CABBC5E.30314.BCBF6D@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402205809.027d9ba0@pop.wizard.net>
 <004901c1daa7$ed92d0a0$8a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403173248.02493b60@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:37 AM 4/4/02 +0800, you wrote:
>Hi all!
>
>I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists
>Table (UTT), where you roll and a result like "Antagonist turns out
>to be Protagonist's long-lost relative" or "20 drunken goons ambush
>the PC on the way home" or whatever come up.  we could make a
>big UTT with a thousand or so entries so repeats are rare...
>
>-- Rachel

Good idea, and I applaud and admire it.

The really surprising surprise is more like what I had in mind.  Not "what 
is their true motivation, really?" but "You walk to the mailbox and hear a 
strange click as you open it.  Some sixth sense makes you jump to the 
side.  An explosion plumes out of the mouth of the mailbox, right through 
where you were just standing.  There are nasty-looking steel darts embedded 
very deeply in the tree on the opposite side of the street."  Something 
totally out of the blue.  And you can't use my exploding-mailbox random 
event because you've already written it so you know it _might_ happen.

The best conceptual approach I've devised so far is we help each other out 
by writing random events, posting them via the Internet to each other, and 
then we can each use someone else's random events and some dice or other 
random number generator.  No peeking allowed.

Alternatively, there was the suggested approach of "it's a lot like playing 
chess against yourself".  But only the most scrupulously intellectually 
honest person could really do that up right.  I'd be very tempted to let my 
munchkinness run wild, for instance.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 14:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 14:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <200204032049.DHB04097@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403174814.0255e1a0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon retorts:
> ><snippage>
> >> Somewhat realistic settlements, no TL 15, Pop
> >> 2 worlds
>
>I always thought that these were either scientific
>establishments - OR -
>
>Laning's Retirement Palace

Heh.  Nah.  It's nice to think that there might be nearly "unspoiled" 
worlds like that somewhere, but I wouldn't want to live on them.  For one 
thing, the TML would be pretty lacking in activity on a place like that.  I 
need more intellectual activities than can be provided by a population of 
less than 100 sophonts.  You could always posit that those ninety people 
are the ninety most brilliant and knowledgeable people who ever lived, I 
guess.  It's a retirement palace for the best and the brightest.  But then 
you'd have to explain why they let me retire there too!

Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major 
metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a 
twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to ride my 
bicycle around on for training and take different routes each day.  Fifteen 
miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest needs.  Really.  Don't 
forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] heaven and earth
Message-ID: <200204032300.DHF06393@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

does anyone know where I can find a list of known bugs?

also, I wouldn't mind porting this to Smalltalk.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Laning wrote:
Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major 
metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a 
twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to ride my 
bicycle around on for training and take different routes each day.  Fifteen 
miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest needs.  Really.  Don't 
forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.

--Laning



How about this Laning?
http://www.trinityyachts.com/seahawk.htm

The boat's also detailed in the current (April 2002) issue of Yachting.  Drop me
an e-mail if you want me to send you some scans ;)

Jesse
wyrwolff@yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:16:02 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <3CAB8CD5.530DEA4@premier.net>


"DeGraff, Jesse" wrote:
> 
> Laning wrote:
> Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major
> metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a
> twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to ride my
> bicycle around on for training and take different routes each day.  Fifteen
> miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest needs.  Really.  Don't
> forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.
> 
> --Laning
> 
> How about this Laning?
> http://www.trinityyachts.com/seahawk.htm
> 
> The boat's also detailed in the current (April 2002) issue of Yachting.  Drop me
> an e-mail if you want me to send you some scans ;)
> 
Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)

Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:

http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Travellers' Aid Society
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEKEDJAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <20020402201432.444efd17.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403181532.02492b50@pop.wizard.net>

>I imagine TAS could be used as an alternative to the intrigues among the
>noble families. After all, the idle rich are always a good source for
>strife. Just look at the old-school soap operas (Dallas, Falcon Crest,
>etc) out there...

True enough.  I live in the suburbs between Washington, D.C. and the 
fox-hunting Virginia countryside where there are dozens of billionaires 
with a B, and the big hunt/horse events are an important part of the social 
calendar for zillionaires from all over the world.  Every time there's a 
murder in Middleburg or something, it shows up as a made-for-TV movie two 
years later.  Like clockwork.  :->

'Dallas' & 'Falcon Crest' are old school soap operas?!  One of us is dating 
ourselves, 'cuz I see something like 'As The World Turns' as old school and 
'Dallas' as a recent fad.  And of course there were the old radio shows 
that were before my time; they actually were sponsored by soap 
companies.  It's all subjective, I guess.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:22:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:22:28 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
In-Reply-To: <3CAB8CD5.530DEA4@premier.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACELDCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

John Groth says
[Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:]

Nice.  But where is the triple laser turret?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:27:02 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" l
 ong)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

That's not a yacht, it's a pocket cruise ship ;)
Jesse


John Groth proclaimed:
Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)

Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:

http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 15:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 15:29:02 2002
Subject: Seagoing Yachts (was: Re: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACELDCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3CAB8FE7.32401A30@premier.net>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> John Groth says
> [Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:]
> 
> Nice.  But where is the triple laser turret?

Not mounted.  As _Britannia_ was designed for rapid conversion to a
hospital ship at need, the laws of war forbid mounting of offensive
weapons.

I am given to understand, however, that the 2 3-pdr. saluting guns are
point-defense capable.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] heaven and earth
In-Reply-To: <200204032300.DHF06393@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D0D965.34814%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/3/02 3:00 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> does anyone know where I can find a list of known bugs?
> 
> also, I wouldn't mind porting this to Smalltalk.

Just a word of warning.  I got the source for a possible mac port.  It
written in VB.  There's on source file that's over a meg.  AAARRRGG.

I thought it would be an easy post to the mac using RealBasic.  Boy was I
wrong.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FA@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net>

Jesse DeGraff says:

>How about this Laning?
>http://www.trinityyachts.com/seahawk.htm
>
>The boat's also detailed in the current (April 2002) issue of 
>Yachting.  Drop me
>an e-mail if you want me to send you some scans ;)

Hmm, that's pretty nice.  :->

But it doesn't seem to have a suitable helicopter.  And I'd prefer to have 
a spot more conducive to sunning while cruising slowly or at anchor.  With 
cocktails.  And where's the swimming pool?  Some of the yachts found at the 
link you posted a few weeks back had swimming pools.

Remember, I'm a man of a modest needs, but you can't honestly expect me to 
want for all those basic necessities can you?  :->

I'd pull up one or two yachts from that other site, but the computer where 
my bookmarks live is currently a little under the weather.

I'd really like the yacht to be a sailboat but that plays hell with trying 
to use the helicopter, or even where to keep the car.

--Laning
Sheez, that Trinity yacht has a 38-footer listed as one of its tenders.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FC@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403191641.00a990b0@pop.wizard.net>

>John Groth proclaimed:
>Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)
>
>Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:
>
>http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

Yes, that might be suitable.  A bit old though, don't you think?  And it 
probably needs some pretty extensive remodelling for the helopad and hangar.

Remember, I'm a man of modest needs.

--Laning

PS  Both of those yachts were good fodder for my budding Traveller 
campaign.  I thank you.  I think my wife and I will have fun together 
looking at the online tour of HM Britannia.  :->

I wonder...should the truly luxurious yacht owner carry his own ocean-going 
yacht in the hold of his star yacht?  Captain Nemo probably would.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/3/02 4:14 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Hmm, that's pretty nice.  :->
> 
> But it doesn't seem to have a suitable helicopter.  And I'd prefer to have
> a spot more conducive to sunning while cruising slowly or at anchor.  With
> cocktails.  And where's the swimming pool?  Some of the yachts found at the
> link you posted a few weeks back had swimming pools.
> 
> Remember, I'm a man of a modest needs, but you can't honestly expect me to
> want for all those basic necessities can you?  :->


Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?

http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html

Now that's what I am talking about.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 16:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 16:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] using heaven and earth
Message-ID: <200204040040.DHJ01676@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod, how hard was it to take the output from h&e (html) and 
turn it into what you have for the spinwardmarches site?

I am thinking of doing the same thing for Corridor.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Suddenly, Blackmoore Heavy Industries (builders of the Acipiter series ships and
others) branches off to wet-ship design.  Pretty impressive when you consider
they're asteroid based ;)
Jesse


Kindest Sophont Laning,
Regarding your RFP for a "modest", helicopter (how quaint!) equipped motoryacht,
are you looking for something in an expedition style yacht
[http://www.yachtworld.com/expeditionyachts/expeditionyachts_3.html], something
classical [http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/], or something a little more
aggressive looking? [http://www.newzealandyachts.com/].

Best Regards,
David Phoenecius
Blackmoore Heavy Industries


-----Original Message-----
From: laning [mailto:laning@wizard.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 4:26 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)



>John Groth proclaimed:
>Reasonably acceptable, if a bit small. ;-)
>
>Now, if you _really_ want a seagoing yacht, here's the place to look:
>
>http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/

Yes, that might be suitable.  A bit old though, don't you think?  And it 
probably needs some pretty extensive remodelling for the helopad and hangar.

Remember, I'm a man of modest needs.

--Laning

PS  Both of those yachts were good fodder for my budding Traveller 
campaign.  I thank you.  I think my wife and I will have fun together 
looking at the online tour of HM Britannia.  :->

I wonder...should the truly luxurious yacht owner carry his own ocean-going 
yacht in the hold of his star yacht?  Captain Nemo probably would.

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:02:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:02:37 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <20020403.170340.-179719.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

> Laning wrote:
> Give me a private island at the mouth of the harbor for a major 
> metropolis.  With its own private subway stop, a helicopter, and a 
> twin-engined turboprop.  Sound good?  Something big enough to
> ride my bicycle around on for training and take different routes each
> day.  Fifteen miles long, say?  I don't ask much.  A man of modest
> needs.  Really. Don't forget that yacht I mentioned earlier, either.
> 
> --Laning

Why not just take Catalina Island off the Southern California's Long
Beach coast.
Live in Wriggly's mansion, and enslave Avalon harbor. 
They have a small harbor, a private small plane airstrip, a secluded
school for Mercenary training, room for a submarine base, accessible by
sea plane, helicopter, yacht, or small plane, and if you like the
outdoors, a small herd of Bison.

Don't worry about the rattlesnakes, they'll at least warn you before they
strike.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
Message-ID: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission 
times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had 
holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might 
be traded on many worlds.

Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was 
traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on 
that world traded electronically.

You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
to try and offset this sort of risk?

Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017882903.8505.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission 
> times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had 
> holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might 
> be traded on many worlds.
> 
> Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was 
> traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on 
> that world traded electronically.
> 
> You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
> stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
> get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
> to try and offset this sort of risk?

Aside from a broker on Regina who handles the investment for you?  No.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:16:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:16:35 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEKKDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Sort of gives you a reminder of how stock brokers got so powerful. A century
ago you REALLY had to trust your brokerage to do what was in your best
interest.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission
times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had
holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might
be traded on many worlds.

Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was
traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on
that world traded electronically.

You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the
stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to
get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments
to try and offset this sort of risk?

Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
Message-ID: <20020403.173322.-179719.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:08:21 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
> stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
> get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
> to try and offset this sort of risk?
> 
> Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?
>

One would assume that your portfolio in the 57th century would have a lot
more safeguards than todays economic choices and options. Todays brokers
can key in a buy or sell if above or below a certain point. The future
would be so electronic, computerization so A.I. that your entire
portfolio could change, grow, etc, while you're out jumping around the
galaxy. But because of your pre-jump commands to your home computer,
you'd have no worry's at all, in fact if programmed right you'd be making
Credits all the time.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEPKGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

hmmm, 
stock futures? invest in as basket of 
stocks.  put a proportion of your stock 
in mega corps __ if they crash the 
imperium has probably crashed so you 
really don't need to worry ... too much :)

jml
_____________
my other computer runs BSD
and another, Mac OS 9, and 
another NT, and .....
you get the idea

jml
jmlotzn1@pacbell.net
_________________





I had this bad feeling about the delay in transmission 
times.  Let's say you invested in a megacorp which had 
holdings across, say, the Marches.  Stock of that corp might 
be traded on many worlds.

Now, let's say that the majority of stock in that corp was 
traded on one world (Regina, let's say), and many people on 
that world traded electronically.

You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
to try and offset this sort of risk?

Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] book two ship building
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEPNGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I've been thinking again,  one potentialy cool thing
to contemplate is that each race can have different types
of standard ship elements.  Aslan optimize for m drive 
speed.  Vagyar ships are optimized as m3 j2 pp 3 ships for 
every default hull, Zho ships have smaller j drives but 
the m drives are bigger and so on, unless it is design to 
run without a PSI aboard in which case both drives are 
too big. Or for instance the Ante Spinward yards has a 
standard hull with a different drive, hull ratio.

much coolness with too much violence the rules.

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 17:58:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr  3 17:58:07 2002
Subject: [TML] book two ship building ( minor correction thingee )
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEPNGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEPNGDAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

errr that should be

much coolness without too much violence the rules.
                  ^^^
________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] book two ship building ( minor correction thingee )
Message-ID: <200204040203.DHL05589@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

John-Martin says
>
>errr that should be
>
>much coolness without too much violence the rules.
>                  ^^^

I don't know. It seems nearly impossible to "really" damage a 
ship in High Guard.  If you compare the amount of damage that 
can be done with, say four triple beam turrets in LBB 2, and 
try that same amount of weaponry in HG, at least I have a 
chance of getting critical hits in LBB 2.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net> <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020404122756.A18722@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?

Come on now, *any* boat can submerge :)

> http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html

... though I must admit the ability to come back up again does have
some appeal.  Interestingly enough, this sub is almost exactly 100
dtons.  Only $78 million, too.  That would be what, 20 MCrImp?  Not
far off the cost of a 100-dton starship :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net> <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020404122756.A18722@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CABBC6C.54730FB0@premier.net>


Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Tod Glenn wrote:
> > Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?
> 
> Come on now, *any* boat can submerge :)
> 
> > http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html
> 
> ... though I must admit the ability to come back up again does have
> some appeal.

To paraphrase the advice a med tech game me several years ago:

Water on the outside, air on the inside.  Any deviation is bad.*

*The actual advice was "The air goes in and out, the blood goes 'round
and 'round.  Any deviation is bad."

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 18:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Apr  3 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [ALDEBARAN] Revised data file
In-Reply-To: <164.b8cd038.29dcb7e0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CAC67AA.23713.6F6A07@localhost>

On 3 Apr 2002, at 14:54, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:

> Oh, bloody hell.
> 
> Ignore that, everyone. Was meant for private email.

This is not the sector you're looking for, move along.

(Well someone had to say it)

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
Message-ID: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>

Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered 
seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat 
that had not a conventional sail, but basically an 
airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing 
around trying to find information and pictures about 
this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more 
info about this boat or have any links?

Jesse


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Information, please:  Kians
Message-ID: <OFC3572B3F.B36E56CE-ONCA256B91.0013E1A4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Larsen asked:
>Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Kians

Have a look in my Library Data under "K" - "Kian". There's a whole entry 
on them (sans picture, sorry!), including these CT stats:

Number  Animal Type  Weight  Hits   Armour  Wounds and Weapons 
10-60   Grazer       400 kg  25/10  jack    10 Hooves A9 F4 S3 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Beowulf Down update - Letter of Marque!
Message-ID: <OF41324AB5.DC2907F0-ONCA256B91.0014375C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Got my 'Net access back last night, and to celebrate I uploaded a blank 
Letter of Marque, plus a few filled-in LoM's for the PC's in my campaign.

(I also forgot to mention I added a few new taglines. Oh yeah, and a j-6 
map to the Tavonni RICE Paper. I'll really have to update my "Just 
Detected" page!  ;-).

For the blank one, either go in through "Just Detected", or via Tavonni 
Repair Bays ==> Other Assorted Notes ==> Letter of Marque.

To find the filled-in LoM's, again go thru "Just Detected", or via Tavonni 
Specialities ==> Adifux Inc LIC ==> then the various Letters of Marque.

BTW, did anyone have any comments on my _Robots_ rules fixes?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 19:59:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 19:59:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Electronic Copy of MT Ruleset?
Message-ID: <OFA21335D5.ACFFA0F8-ONCA256B91.00154011@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

I asked this a couple of months ago, but got no reply:

        A year or more ago, someone on the TML offered us the MT rules in 
electronic form.

        Marc apparently allows the person to release a limited number of 
copies per year (provided the recipient can show proof-of-purchase).

        Can anyone tell me:
                (a) who the person is;
                (b) how I can get in contact with them; and
                (c) if any copies are available *this* year?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <OF0CB4ECE7.A245C0B1-ONCA256B91.00169DC3@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>> Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
>> opposed to deuterium or tritium)?
>
>No, P-P probably would be phosphorus.  I should have written p-p.

Um, maybe H-H, hydrogen to hydrogen (as opposed to D-D deuterium-to-D, or 
T-T tritium-to T)?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
Message-ID: <200204040421.UAA31186@ping.iii.com>

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au writes:

>Dear Folks -
>
>>> Ummm...because that's protium-protium (i.e., standard hydrogen, as
>>> opposed to deuterium or tritium)?
>>
>>No, P-P probably would be phosphorus.  I should have written p-p.
>
>Um, maybe H-H, hydrogen to hydrogen (as opposed to D-D deuterium-to-D, or 
>T-T tritium-to T)?

Nope.  H is insufficiently clear, since deuterium and tritium _are_ 
hydrogen.  p for proton.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020402080234.009ec6b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20403.202553.7U7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 03:43 AM 4/2/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>Doug Berry said (and I kid you not):
>>>(For my real heresy, I want to fix the Spinward Marches...
>>
>>Time for the Spanish Inquisition.  Cardinal Fang, read the charges.  Doug, 
>>your only chance for eternal salvation is to repent of your sins and plead 
>>GDW's forgiveness.  Tis best if your soul not suffer long before it is 
>>despatched to its rightful abode.  And tis best that it choose the abode 
>>of eternal grace.  Only repentance can save your soul now.
>>
>>--Laning, Canoneer of God
>
> I repent, my ideas were wrong, the Spinward Marches are perfect.
>
> (in a whisper) But still, it is broken...
>
> 100 geek points if you can recognize that paraphrase.

"Eppur, si mouve..." is the original, I believe? 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
References: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <3CABDBEE.7B9724CC@pobox.com>

Check out http://www.windrocket.com/index.html.

WKH

JDEGRAFF@sbcglobal.net wrote:

> Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered
> seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat
> that had not a conventional sail, but basically an
> airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing
> around trying to find information and pictures about
> this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more
> info about this boat or have any links?
>
> Jesse
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 20:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Wed Apr  3 20:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
In-Reply-To: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
References: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <dklnauohlk3ounbqd2b03igvg33l5810e9@4ax.com>

On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:38:37 -0500, JDEGRAFF@sbcglobal.net wrote:

>Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered=20
>seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat=20
>that had not a conventional sail, but basically an=20
>airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing=20
>around trying to find information and pictures about=20
>this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more=20
>info about this boat or have any links?

I had seen the reference as well.  The key Google term turns out to be
"wingsail" and a couple standard publicity shots can be found at
http://www.lusas.com/images/yacht.gif,
http://www.formsys.com/Maxsurf/MSLaunchingsPage/WalkerWingsailPic1.gif
or http://www.boatshow.com/IMAGES/SAILBOATS/waz001aT4.jpg.  Sorry, but
both of the images are similar and small, but should be enough to
confirm what you remember.

The depicted boat is the Zephyr 43.  Unfortunately, it appears that
Walker Wingsail is no longer in business.

A much smaller alternative, but definitely interesting in appearance
is at
http://www.marinersguide.com/dockswap/national/messages/115.html,
though as one correspondent had it, there was a buoyancy problem.
When the 200 lbs pilot carried his child on his lap, the vessel tended
to submarine.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How common is advanced life?
In-Reply-To: <20020403123426.04d59074.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20403.203116.4A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> laning wrote:
>> By the way, Jens, have you read Hal Clement's 'Mission of Gravity'?
>> A great example of intelligent alien life forms evolving on a world
>> extremely different from Terra.  A just plain extreme world, in
>> fact.  Clement opens the hood and lets us peer into a lot of the
>> alien building he does.  The book's a classic, in fact.

> Nope, I haven't. And I doubt that the library has that book in stock.
> I've placed it on the list of books to look for now, though.

You may want to see if you can get copies of "The Essential Hal
Clement" Volumes I, II and III. Volume III has Mission of Gravity, the
sequel "Star Light", and several short stories that are related.

The set has a lot of strange world or aliens that are good for
springing on folks not familiar with SF from that era.

And they aren't bad reading as long as you realized that the worlds are
as much "characters" as the sophonts.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:29:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:29:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <002101c1d9e3$28575460$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20403.204017.2N3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> One thing I would like to point out to those insisting on thumbprint ID's at
> doorlocks etc...
>
> How many crew with legitimate access are going to remove their Vacc Suit
> Gloves to use the Thumbprint ID when the ship is damaged and the interior is
> exposed to Vacuum?
>
> Not many...
>
> Voice print ID might be ok, as long as it can cope with voices distorted by
> being in a vacc suit and relayed by radio (and can differentiate a recording
> being played over radio)
>
> I think that biometric ID's are going to be uncommon, most locking devices
> relying on a combination of a physical key (or swipe card etc) and keypad ID
> number. It will be a bit like getting money out of a cash machine... the
> card on its own is useless, as is the PIN... but use them together and you
> have access to your account.

Actually, even *now* there exist systems that use an access card that
you merely have to have on your person, not even in sight.

Basicly, the access mechanism sends a bunch of different frequency
radio signals out and the card resonates at a set of them that
consitutute the access code. Purely passive, no power required in the
card. 

If this was common, you'd have a "switch" to disable the resonance, so
folks couldn't read your codes as you walked by (then again, if you've
got more than one card, they won't know which frequencies go with which
card :-)

This would be good for stuff that needs to work while you are suited. 

Add simple PIN codes to deal with stolen cards and you are doing pretty
good. 

And at the higher frequencies you could have thousands of discrete
frequencies with a code consisting a few dozen or two. That's make
trying to "pick" the lock problematic. Not impossible, just time
consuming.

Especially if it has "traps" like frequencies that are *never* used by
the cards, and thus indicate a possible attempt to pick the lock. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
Message-ID: <AA-FD46A220263513E872C2C5D66B592F00-ZZ@homebase1.prodigy.net>

Same idea, but the one I'm looking for was at *least* 
a 40 footer...

Jesse


--- Original Message ---
From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing 
Yachts

>Check out http://www.windrocket.com/index.html.
>
>WKH
>
>JDEGRAFF@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
>> Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I 
remembered
>> seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat
>> that had not a conventional sail, but basically an
>> airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been 
Google'ing
>> around trying to find information and pictures about
>> this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know 
more
>> info about this boat or have any links?
>>
>> Jesse
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TML mailing list
>> TML@travellercentral.com
>> 
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr  3 21:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr  3 21:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
Message-ID: <AA-859664D2580835FD9C720DB5289F1E5A-ZZ@homebase1.prodigy.net>

THAT'S what I was looking for!  Thanks!  It's 
unfortunate that the pics are so small, but oh 
well :)  I tried about 15-20 different thing when 
looking for the bloody thing, but "wingsail" wasn't 
one of them.  "Wing sail" WAS one of them but I likely 
didn't dig deep enough.

Thanks again!
Jesse

<snip JR Holmes' work>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] If the TML seems sluggish...
Message-ID: <B8D13B56.3730F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

If the TML seems sluggish it's probably because I am in the process of
converting old mail archives to the new online archive format.

I expect to recover all archives back to mid 2001 without difficulty.

I've been looking over the archives from the past (back to 1995) and
converting them may take quite a bit of work.

I hope to be able to convert all existing TML (and XBOAT) archives into the
new format.  I may need to tap into some skilled brainpower of the TML.
Stay tuned.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:36:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:36:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Kians
Message-ID: <d8.15e7e500.29dd568a@aol.com>

--part1_d8.15e7e500.29dd568a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>     Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
>kian hails from?  I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
>pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
>Cavalry.
>     Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?

  JTAS #9, per the "JTAS Index" from Jim V., posted 1 Mar 2002?

   Hey,
   Stats for these Tauntaun knock-offs were also provided in The Best of the 
Journal #3 (which I'm reading right now). 
   Says here they're large, plains-dwelling, herbivore grazers that travel in 
herds. Originally from Prilissa/Trin's Veil, but are exported, and now a 
common sight Coreward.
   Extremely good eyesight and hearing. Eat 30-50kg plant matter/day.
   Can carry up to 250kg comfortably. If overloaded, it'll refuse to move.

   (CT Stats follow)   
#       Type       Wt        Hits     Armor   Wounds & Weapons
10-60 Grazer     400kg   25/10   jack      10   Hooves  A9  F4  S3

   -Ken Murphy- 
   

--part1_d8.15e7e500.29dd568a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Could some kind soul tell me which planet in the Spinward Marches the 
<BR>&gt;kian hails from? &nbsp;I may have the name slightly wrong, kians are the bipedal, 
<BR>&gt;pseudo-avian beasties used by ceremonial units of the Imperial Guard 
<BR>&gt;Cavalry.
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Also, have any stats for kians ever been published?
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;JTAS #9, per the "JTAS Index" from Jim V., posted 1 Mar 2002?
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Hey,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Stats for these Tauntaun knock-offs were also provided in The Best of the Journal #3 (which I'm reading right now). 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Says here they're large, plains-dwelling, herbivore grazers that travel in herds. Originally from Prilissa/Trin's Veil, but are exported, and now a common sight Coreward.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Extremely good eyesight and hearing. Eat 30-50kg plant matter/day.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Can carry up to 250kg comfortably. If overloaded, it'll refuse to move.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;(CT Stats follow) &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR># &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Type &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Wt &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hits &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Armor &nbsp;&nbsp;Wounds &amp; Weapons
<BR>10-60 Grazer &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;400kg &nbsp;&nbsp;25/10 &nbsp;&nbsp;jack &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;10 &nbsp;&nbsp;Hooves &nbsp;A9 &nbsp;F4 &nbsp;S3
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;-Ken Murphy- 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_d8.15e7e500.29dd568a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:37:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:37:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403231032.00ab9320@pop.wizard.net>

>You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the
>stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to
>get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments
>to try and offset this sort of risk?
>
>Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?

People familiar with the market can _always_ fleece someone in the public, 
in fact that's generally what they are doing at any given moment.  At least 
in the good ol' US of A.  (I was a stockbroker in one of my former lives.)

Pretty standard options contracts should cover it.  The same ones that are 
traded now.  Plus you could do other things to try to hedge.  But, except 
in very extraordinary and usually fleeting situations, you won't be able to 
completely eliminate your risk unless you are also willing to eliminate 
your potential profit.

What a lot of people never realize about options, is the contracts are 
_not_ issued by the company that you're trading in, they have nothing to do 
with it.  And in fact, a lot of people have trouble understanding that when 
they buy shares of a stock, they (usually) are not buying the shares 
directly from the company, except in initial public offerings when a 
company goes from privately held to publicly held.  After the IPO, the 
members of the public who bought the shares will sell them to other members 
of the public from time to time, and they in turn may sell them to others, 
and so on and on.  When you buy a stock that is traded on an exchange, 
you're buying it from another investor just like you (or maybe not so much 
like you, heh) and the two of you are basically negotiating a bet on how 
much you each think the shares will be worth in the future.  I sell IBM at 
70 because I think the shares are going in the crapper, and you buy it at 
70 because you think the next annual report will spark investor 
confidence.  In other words, it's all just legalized gambling where people 
bet on what the mob psychology is going to be.

Now that we have that crude primer out of the way for people who are less 
acquianted with the fundamentals.

Stock exchanges on 21st century Terra all get information as soon as 
everybody else in existence get it.  It's a globally connected world, and 
valuable information moves at lightning speed.  There is nobody off world, 
so they don't need worry about a time delay.  Unless you count shuttle or 
space station personnel, and their time delay is neglible for purposes of 
this discussion.  So, everyone who is negotiating a bet on what the value 
of stock in Thingie Corp at this particular microsecond is theoretically 
party to the same information that the person on their side of their 
negotiation is.

If you send some of the people who trade in the stock off to a different 
planet, and it takes basically a week for information from this planet to 
reach that planet, then the smart thing to do is create an exchange on that 
far away planet where people there can trade the stock.  All the people at 
the faraway planet are theoretically party to new and relevant information 
at the same time as the rest of the folks at that planet.

In practice, this may not always be true.  Jump times are approximately one 
week, but depending on the dice and the quality of your ship's navigator 
you may make the journey roughly a day faster or a day slower.  If you can 
manage to reach Glisten from Regina a day sooner than anyone else who left 
Regina the same time you did, then you have one day during which you know 
something they don't know.

If the local exchange(s) at Glisten are trading in Regina FunCorp, ILC then 
they'll all be sharing the same stale, weeks-old news, and their trading 
decisions will be based on that news.  If you just happen to reach Glisten 
a day early, and you just happen to know that Regina FunCorp announced 
moments before you left that their CEO is being fired for malfeasance, 
there is a Regina Justice Department investigation into major auditing 
irregularities, and their comptroller just committed suicide when he 
received a subpoena, then you have an opportunity to short the hell out of 
Regina FunCorp on Glisten at prices the locals are probably willing to give 
you but wouldn't dream of if they knew the latest news.

In other words, each world with significant levels of commerce will almost 
certainly have its own stock exchange and shares traded elsewhere in the 
Imperium (or outside it, in many cases) may also be traded there.  It 
doesn't guarantee they _will_ be traded there.  Only if there's sufficient 
interest on Glisten in that particular issue will it be listed for trading 
there.  Whoever runs the exchange on Glisten will probably have regulations 
about how many shares must be registered to owners in system, how many 
shares must trade in any given day, etc.  If an issue doesn't live up to 
those minimum standards, the exchange's owners or regulators will delist it 
and you'll have to find somebody else to buy from you or sell to you.

And the person who just arrived a day ahead of schedule from Regina can 
make a killing on Glisten in Regina FunCorp speculation.  If RFC is listed, 
and if there are enough people willing to buy from him during that given 
day, and if he has the funds or credit to do what he is trying to do.

Bear in mind that if someone just arrived in system and they suddenly go as 
wild as they can buying or selling a particular stock, then that by itself 
will affect the stock.  Any time a seller drives up trading volume in one 
issue by 50% above normal, that's going to make a big difference.

In other words, if Bill Gates decided to actually start selling all his 
Microsoft shares one day, he'd drive Microsoft's price down into the 
gutter.  Even if nobody knew all those shares suddenly on the market 
belonged to an insider, it would just be a huge supply and demand 
imbalance.  And Gates would discover that people who reckon his net worth 
on paper are living in a very theoretical world.  He'd still be rich as the 
devil, but not nearly as rich people say he is.  Because people do say he 
is richer than the devil, you know.

Keeping all the above in mind, and keeping in mind that many exchanges on 
different planets will have reciprocal arrangements to ensure they're 
regulated virtually identically but many other exchanges will fly by night 
if they feel like it, there will be plenty of incentive for someone who 
trades in shares on an interstellar basis to get their news sooner than 
everyone else.  So there will be classes of people continually jumping 
ships between financial centers in hopes of getting to the destination a 
few hours before everyone else and keeping key information to 
themselves.  The really big brokerage firms will probably maintain their 
own fleets that do nothing but jump and then beam info by laser at the 
destination system while collecting beamed info from that system then 
jumping back.  Or they will pay an outside contractor to do that.  Or they 
will make it very well known to navigators and captains everywhere that 
they pay a bounty for such information.  There may even be cowboy operators 
who speculatively jump back and forth trying to be that first person to 
arrive with the news.  And a good navigator should command very rewarding 
compensation if he hires on with people like this.

Done babbling now.  Comments?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:38:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:38:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Seagoing Yachts (RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long)
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C35FE@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404040632.00aba320@pop.wizard.net>

>Kindest Sophont Laning,
>Regarding your RFP for a "modest", helicopter (how quaint!) equipped 
>motoryacht,
>are you looking for something in an expedition style yacht
>[http://www.yachtworld.com/expeditionyachts/expeditionyachts_3.html], 
>something
>classical [http://www.royalyachtbritannia.co.uk/], or something a little more
>aggressive looking? [http://www.newzealandyachts.com/].
>
>Best Regards,
>David Phoenecius
>Blackmoore Heavy Industries

Dear Sophont Phoenecius,

In regards your kind inquiry via recent Xmessage, please accept my grateful 
thanks for your interest.  After perusing the three styles you've 
indicated, the one that seems most attractive was that quaint and slightly 
aging, but gracefully appointed and impeccably maintained Britannia 
item.  It will need some refitting for the helipad and hangar, but I'm sure 
your reknowned naval architects will be able to devise something that 
remains true to the elegant yet relaxed Old World ambience one has such a 
difficult time finding these days.

Although it's former notoriety as a "ship of state" for some monarch on the 
Solomani Rim may lend it an air of gaucheness in some sophont's eyes, I 
prefer seeing it as imbuing this storied floating getaway with character 
and history, however local in nature.

In closing, please have your sophonts contact my sophonts and instruct them 
on the administrative details necessary to transfer funds via xboat.  My 
seneschal will pass on to me any recommendations you make regarding place 
and date of delivery, and I will consider them in the most favorable light 
as I've the utmost of trust in your judgment.

Long live Emperor Strephon,

Laning, His Grace, Duke of So Many Places He Doesn't Bother To Count Them 
Anymore


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:39:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:39:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <B8D0DDA6.3481C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020403190720.02728d00@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404041749.00ab8ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn pointed out:
>Besides, who wants a boat that can't submerge?
>
>http://www.ussubs.com/Luxury_folder/lux.phoenix.html
>
>Now that's what I am talking about.
>--


Oh my.  Speaking of Captain Nemo.  And what would Freud say?  I think 
that's actually relevant in this instance, because if anyone goes that far 
out of their way to have this thing, then it isn't "just a cigar".

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <20020403.170340.-179719.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404042049.00abc060@pop.wizard.net>

>
>Why not just take Catalina Island off the Southern California's Long
>Beach coast.

The thought has crossed my mind.  And Dashiell Hammett set one of his more 
daring, but lesser, stories there before the War.  Which has been copied in 
various films at least every ten years since then.  It makes for an 
interesting Traveller scenario, no matter which exact setting you translate 
it to.

The basic idea is robbers with grandiose visions take over at gunpoint the 
entire play resort of high rollers and the rich for one night, stripping 
everyone there of anything valuable, then escape into the night by 
boat.  They're tough, combat veterans, equipped with Thompson submachine 
guns and grenades as part of their arsenal.  I think.  Haven't read the 
story for at least twenty years.  At the time of the story, Catalina was 
home to one of the most heavily trafficked casinos that Americans frequented.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:40:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:40:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani Rim data errors?
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020403080940.027e7b68@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000201c1dbc2$54800920$fc00a8c0@imogen>

I've noticed some apparent anomalies in the  electronic  versions
of  the  Solomani  Rim.   These  anomalies  seem  to  have   been
replicated across multiple formats:

- Doug's World website (data.xls)
- Heaven&Earth (Solomani_Rim.HES)
- TR Tools (solomani.uwp)
- World Builders Deluxe (Solomani_Rim.WBS)
- ? (solomani.sdf)

... possibly others.

These anomalies are:
- 0606 Ishadar ... has a "KO" (kay-oh) star, this should be "K0" (kay-zero)
- 1901 Eshellim ... has a "VII" size star, this should be "D"
- 2205 Ikaakur ... has a "K3 IV" star, this should be "K0 IV"
- 2222 Ninkhur Sagga ... lacks any stellar data, and also lacks PBG codes

Any comments, disagreements, or the missing data for Ninkhur Sagga?

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:41:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:41:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Winged catamaran was Re: Seagoing Yachts
In-Reply-To: <AA-65432EE4639684C0AD5224BE79616609-ZZ@www4.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404042713.00abaec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 10:38 PM 4/3/02 -0500, Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>Thinking about Laning's "modest" yacht ;) I remembered
>seeing on TV several years ago a catamaran sailboat
>that had not a conventional sail, but basically an
>airplane wing mounted as a sail.  I've been Google'ing
>around trying to find information and pictures about
>this boat but haven't had any luck.  Anyone know more
>info about this boat or have any links?
>
>Jesse

No.  But there is Cousteau's experimental "sail" boat.  Sort of a high-tech 
windmill that looks like a cross between a barber's pole, a maypole, a 
mast, and a sail.  I believe it drives a motor that drives a propulsion 
system.  Or is the motor.  I never have found out.  It should be easy to 
track down with Google.

Also, it makes a suitably outre and science-fictiony gizmo to place on some 
world's oceans so the your travellers get that sense of the new and alien, 
and living in the future.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:42:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:42:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Biochemistry (was : How common is advanced life?)
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOIEBACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Jens Rydholm wrote :-
> I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might
> look under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary
> after a while.
"Advanced" = multicellular, right?

> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life
> might function using radically different biochemistries?
Some of Ike Asimov's stuff can be summarised like this :-

Mean Envt.
Temperature   Biomolecules               Solvent
>150 C        Fluorinated silicones      Molten sulphur
-20 to 150 C  The stuff we're made of    Water
<-259C        Substituted lipids         Liquid hydrogen

As for what critters look like, that's a complex function of niche,
environment, and random selective factors (e.g. mass extinctions).

There was a Xenobiology overview I posted to the TML a long time ago
which addressed some of these issues.

What particular points would you like amplified or discussed?


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:43:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:43:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <20020404095814.B46FA27A5B@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204041254070.2194-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Charles (CHam628781@aol.com) writes:
>webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>>>_H. sapiens zhodotlas_[*] and if the Vilani taxonomic name has been
>>>mentioned anywhere in canon, I wish someone would let me have the
>>>reference. I have a vague notion that it may be _H. sapiens vlandensis_,
>>>but I can't back it up. Quite possibly I've made it up myself.
>>>
>>>[*] And the Zhodani themselves claim that it's _H. zhodotlas_.
>>
>>Well, they're not a separate species if they and H. sapiens are
>>interfertile.

I didn't say they were. I said that the Zhodani _claims_ that they are.
Erroneously, as it happens, but when have facts ever interfered with
political theories?

>Depends on what you mean by "interfertile" some species (including ones with
>differing numbers of chromosomes) can interbreed but not produce fertile
>young.

Interfertile for the purpose of establishing that two population groups
belong to the same species means 'capable of producing fertile offspring'.
(At least when you're talking about mammals).

>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk
>writes:
>
>>>Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
>>>ridiculous as well.
>>
>>No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H.
>>erectus_
>>and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
>>actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
>>it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
>>showing up as early as that.
>
>H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say
>I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H.
>sapiens back that far.

The book I got my information from was written in 1997, so I think it
qualifies for the term 'modern'. It's been returned to the library, so I
can't provide the name, but a web search of the tern 'archaic Homo
sapiens' provided me with 12 links, the first three of which either put
archaic Homo sapiens that far back or left the qustion open (I didn't
check the rest).

http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/ANTD15/Bill/multi-media.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#moderns

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html#C


>>But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
>>tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In
>>the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place
>>_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.
>
>True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are
>descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even
>more arrogant than they already are.

Whether it would be more interesting is debatable. And such a debate would
be moot, because that's not the way it is. Both Vilani and zhodani are
expressly said to be members of _H. sapiens_.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Whincup)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:43:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Oops
Message-ID: <PGNMAANMJKDGGCAA@angelfire.com>

Dear all,I was wondering if you could help me.

I'm going away for the weekend and don't want to crash my mail server. How do I go about suspending the list while I'm away?

Cheers
---
Shan Andy

"Wagging this appendage is
the only creative outlet I have"

Salem




Is your boss reading your email? ....Probably
Keep your messages private by using Lycos Mail.
Sign up today at http://mail.lycos.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:44:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:44:41 2002
Subject: [TML] (long) Re: inheritance Imperial style
References: <20020403181406.EE90627A4D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c1dbe6$52c83ca0$025d8690@computer>

> From: laning
> IIRC, the Albigensian Crusade was the first Crusade.

Bzzt.  Thank you for playing.  The first crusade ended in 1099.  I've
grabbed a couple of entries on the Albigensian Crusade from one of my handy
encyclopedia CDs.

OBTRAVs should be obvious enough.

Excerpts from The Oxford Interactive Encyclopedia:
Albigensians, followers of a form of the Cathar heresy; they took their name
from the town of Albi in Languedoc in southern France. There and in northern
Italy the sect acquired immense popularity. The movement was condemned at
the Council of Toulouse in 1119 and by the Third and Fourth Lateran councils
in 1179 and 1215, which opposed it not only as heretical but because it
threatened the family and the state. St Bernard and St Dominic were its
vigorous opponents. Between 1209 and 1228 the wars known as the Albigensian
Crusade were mounted, led principally by Simon de Montfort. By 1229 the
heretics were largely crushed and the Treaty of Meaux delivered most of
their territory to France.

Cathar (Greek katharos, 'pure'), a member of a medieval sect seeking to
achieve a life of great purity. Cathars believed in a 'dualist' heresy.
Their basic belief was that if God, being wholly good, had alone created the
world it would have been impossible for evil to exist within it, and that
another, diabolical, creative force must have taken part. They held that the
material world and all within it were irredeemably evil. The human body and
its appetites were despised. Marriage was rejected and suicide by starvation
was admired. A pure life was impossible to all but a very few called the
'perfect', and the rest--known simply as 'believers'--could live as they
wished. Salvation was assured if they took a form of confirmation known as
the 'consolamentum' before death. This ceremony was to be delayed as long as
possible to reduce the chance of the recipient's sinning further before he
or she died. The heresy originated in Bulgaria and appeared in western
Europe in the 1140s. In southern France this Christian heresy was called
Albigensianism.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:45:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:45:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Living...on an Airplane...
References: <20020403200103.CA19127A56@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c1dbe6$5218c2c0$025d8690@computer>

> From: "Rachel Kronick"
> I think it would be easy enough to come up with a Universal Twists
> Table (UTT),

Hmm.  We'd probably want a bit of a framework to hang the Twists together.
It wouldn't have to be too complex - an introduction, set of "acts", climax
and conclusion structure would probably work.

Using stuff other people develop to provide surprise is a good idea too.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B8D1A48C.37332%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
Message-ID: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning expounds majestically on the value of information
<snip>

It almost sounds like there's the Imperial X-Boat, but a 
brokerage might run an x-boat to and from each system several 
times a day with the news and trading information. It still 
takes a week to get information, but it would be hard 
to "beat the boat".

It would make things more interesting if you had things 
arranged so that jumps took a week + or - some hours. Let's 
say that the modifier, as you suggested, would be the 
navigator's skill.  Therefore, we roll 2D6, - Nav.  If you 
roll a 7, that's exactly on time.  But if you roll higher, 
you are an hour late for each number higher.  And you are one 
hour earlier for each number lower.

Makes me think that a lot of navigators will get their 
training doing Imperial x-boat, and then change career to fly 
for a private broker or a merchant line that contracts to 
brokers.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 06:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 06:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Oops
In-Reply-To: <PGNMAANMJKDGGCAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <B8D1A906.37346%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 11:34 AM, Andrew Whincup at shanhat@angelfire.com wrote:

> Dear all,I was wondering if you could help me.
> 
> I'm going away for the weekend and don't want to crash my mail server. How do
> I go about suspending the list while I'm away?
> 

go to http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Log in and set "Disable Mail Delivery" to yes
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 07:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 07:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

My wife caught me working on the standard operating 
procedures/tips manual, and she asked what it was for. She's 
a technical writer, so she's attracted to large documents.

I told her that it was tips, and in large part, a standard 
operating procedure manual for Traveller parties.

She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000 
Certified?"
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 07:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu Apr  4 07:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404042049.00abc060@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020404152552.33017.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com>

--- laning <laning@wizard.net> wrote:
> 
> >
> >Why not just take Catalina Island off the Southern
> California's Long
> >Beach coast.
> 
> The thought has crossed my mind.  And Dashiell
> Hammett set one of his more 
> daring, but lesser, stories there before the War. 
> Which has been copied in 
> various films at least every ten years since then. 
> It makes for an 
> interesting Traveller scenario, no matter which
> exact setting you translate 
> it to.
> 
> The basic idea is robbers with grandiose visions
> take over at gunpoint the 
> entire play resort of high rollers and the rich for
> one night, stripping 
> everyone there of anything valuable, then escape
> into the night by 
> boat.  They're tough, combat veterans, equipped with
> Thompson submachine 
> guns and grenades as part of their arsenal.  I
> think.  Haven't read the 
> story for at least twenty years.  At the time of the
> story, Catalina was 
> home to one of the most heavily trafficked casinos
> that Americans frequented.
> 
> --Laning
> 
  >>
  AHA! So THAT's where Able Team #2(or was it 3?) came
from! I knew that wasn't an original idea......

 MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 07:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 07:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>

At 10:15 AM 4/4/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>My wife caught me working on the standard operating
>procedures/tips manual, and she asked what it was for. She's
>a technical writer, so she's attracted to large documents.
>I told her that it was tips, and in large part, a standard
>operating procedure manual for Traveller parties.
>She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
>Certified?"

I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor training.

Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.

"You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections & standards"

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence.  Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:13:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:13:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Hidden decks  was RE: Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3604@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Paul Walker wrote:
Hey!  I used to work for Trinity before they spun away
from Halter Marine.
<snip cool story>

LOL!  That's pretty funny :)

I'll let the gearheads figure out what size densitometer would be needed to find something like that, and at what range they'd be able to do it from.  From a conceptual design standpoint, if you're trying to fool an on-board customs inspection team that doesn't have densitometers, I'd think about using a deck layout like the AHL.  Have one (or more) of the marked fuel decks be the hidden deck(s), with either no access from the lifts or surreptitious access.  Use a keycard in a reader hidden in the wall panel seams near your right toe or somesuch.

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
References: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c1dbf2$1d1b9500$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: economic crash


> laning expounds majestically on the value of information
> <snip>
>
> It almost sounds like there's the Imperial X-Boat, but a
> brokerage might run an x-boat to and from each system several
> times a day with the news and trading information. It still
> takes a week to get information, but it would be hard
> to "beat the boat".
>
> It would make things more interesting if you had things
> arranged so that jumps took a week + or - some hours. Let's
> say that the modifier, as you suggested, would be the
> navigator's skill.  Therefore, we roll 2D6, - Nav.  If you
> roll a 7, that's exactly on time.  But if you roll higher,
> you are an hour late for each number higher.  And you are one
> hour earlier for each number lower.
>
> Makes me think that a lot of navigators will get their
> training doing Imperial x-boat, and then change career to fly
> for a private broker or a merchant line that contracts to
> brokers.

This would work well IMTU.

IMTU if two ships were within a few hundred km of each other, and both
Jumped at the same time with their exit point again being within a few
hundred km of each other, you would roll the dice for the Jump duration once
and apply the result to both ships. They would emerge from jump at almost
exactly the same time. The variance would be on the order of a few seconds
to a couple of minutes at most.

If they were both to immediately return to their starting points, you would
again make a single jump duration roll and apply it to both ships. Note that
the first jump might take 6.5 days the second might be 7.5. This is due to
the changes in Jumpspace due to the movement of large gravity wells in real
space. At the commencement of Jump the crew know exactly how long *that
particular jump* will take, and this same time will be taken by any other
vessels in the neighbourhood jumping to the same destination for the next
few hours or so. The next time that particular route is taken the roll will
give a different result as conditions have changed.

Now, using your proposed navigation roll, the Navigator becomes more
important, as he strives to shave a few hours off the duration by optimising
the route, skirting closer to intervening gravity wells. A cautious
navigator will add a few hours on as he gives potential hazards a wider
berth...

Perhaps the navigator could state the numbers of hours they wanted to
shorten or extend the jump by as a DM. on 2D 8+ to avoid potential misjump:
DM + 2*Navigator Skill, + Hours of extra Jump duration, - Hours of reduced
Jump Duration

So a Navigator with Skill 2 could add 2 Hours to the Rolled Jump duration
and be safe. A real Hotshot with  Nav-4 could trim 2 Hours of the jump time
and still be safe etc

The effect of a failed roll would be to roll on the misjump table with the
difference between the modified Nav roll and 8 as the DM on the misjump
table.

Another way to increase the utility of the Navigator is to let them
calculate the Jump duration given jumping now, in six hours, 12 hours etc.
Basically, let the navigator roll the duration in advance a number of times
equal to their Nav Skill. Each successive roll equates to the calculated
Jump duration from Here to There given Jumping Now, and successive six hour*
intervals later. It may well result that the fastest route through Jumpspace
occurs in 12 Hours time, and will get you there with 24 hours shorter jump
duration than those rolled for Now, Six hours, Eighteen hours etc. The
prudent Merchant would therefore wait 12 hours before Jumping, as he will
thus arrive in the destination system at least 12 hours earlier than jumping
now. The party in a hurry to get the Hell out of Dodge might prefer to Jump
now, despite a longer Jump duration, as incoming missiles make doing so
prudent...

To sum this up:

Skill       Advance Rolls
0            0. Only rolls upon Jump initiation to see how long this Jump is

1            1 Can see how long a Jump initiated now will take BEFORE
initiating Jump. May Wait Six hours* and                     try again for a
better result
2            2 Can see Jump duration if jump initiated Now and if initiated
in 6 hours* time.

3            3 As 2, but can see Now, 6 Hours*, and 12 Hour* durations

4            4 Now, 6*, 12*, 18*

etc

*Obviously, you can tweak the 6 hour thing to suit your own style... 4
hourly intervals may be just as good (or even better) gaming wise...

So a skilled Navigator can not only forecast better jump windows, they can
the try to shave time off those as well... "Beating the Boat" becomes a lot
more interesting =)

(Also, this 'a given jump takes a given duration if performed at a given
time' situation allows for Fleets to arrive as a coordinated unit, rather
than as a rag-tag of ships scattered over 2 days. Should cheer up the
military planners out there <g>)

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:15:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:15:54 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404082015.00ac34e0@mail.verizon.net>

Hi John,

Just remember, ISO-9000 is about demonstrating that you have a documented 
process, not that you follow it!  ;-)

Best regards,

Charles

At 10:15 AM 4/4/02 -0500, you wrote:
>My wife caught me working on the standard operating
>procedures/tips manual, and she asked what it was for. She's
>a technical writer, so she's attracted to large documents.
>
>I told her that it was tips, and in large part, a standard
>operating procedure manual for Traveller parties.
>
>She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
>Certified?"
>________________
>Do you think my being stronger and
>faster has anything to do with my
>muscles in this place?...Do you think
>that's air that you are breathing?
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:16:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:16:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Solomani Rim data errors?
Message-ID: <000201c1dbff$e448bc40$fc00a8c0@imogen>

Oops, just rechecked LBB 6 (Scouts) and I now think 2205 (Ikaakur)
should be "K3 V".

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:17:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:17:23 2002
Subject: [TML] More data errors?
Message-ID: <000301c1dbff$e508ff00$fc00a8c0@imogen>

I've now checked Alpha Crucis and Antares.  It appears  that  the
rule that K5-M9 is not available for size IV stars and  B0-F4  is
not available for size size VI stars (and in  both  cases  change
the size to V) has not been applied.  I suspect I'm going to find
this in most sectors.  Has anyone noticed this before?

Regards PLST



ALPHA CRUCIS SECTOR
===================
A0204 "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
A0806 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
B0309 "K4 IV" should be "K4 V"
B0606 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
D0310 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
E0103 "K3 IV" should be "K3 V"
E0207 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
E0408 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
E0602 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
E0704 "M5 IV" should be "M5 V"
F0307 "M2 IV" should be "M2 V"
F0402 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
F0506 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
F0510 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
F0710 "K6 IV" should be "K6 V"
G0108 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V" ... then swap the primary and companion
G0801 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
G0807 "M2 IV" should be "M2 V"
H0506 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
H0609 "K5 IV" should be "K5 V"
H0702 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
I0103 "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
J0203 "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
J0209 "K6 IV" should be "K6 V"
J0607 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
J0710 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
L0709 "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
L0805 "M2 IV" should be "M2 V"
M0310 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
N0405 "K9 IV" should be "K9 V"
N0501 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
N0504 "M0 IV" should be "M0 V"
N0509 "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
N0810 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"
O0102 "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
O0703 "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
O0709 "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
O0805 "M8 IV" should be "M8 V"



ANTARES SECTOR
==============
A0507: "F3 VI" should be "F3 V"
A0602: "M9 IV" should be "M9 V"
A0801: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
B0708: "K5 IV" should be "K5 V"
C0204: "F0 VI" should be "F0 V"
C0401: "F1 VI" should be "F1 V"
C0801: "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
E0102: "M1 IV" should be "M1 V"
E0105: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
F0302: "M6 IV" should be "M6 V"
F0508: "M4 IV" should be "M4 V"
F0610: "K9 IV" should be "K9 V"
G0108: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
G0803: "K1 IV" should be "K1 V"
I0105: "K6 IV" should be "K6 V"
J0305: "F4 VI" should be "F4 V"
J0605: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
J0608: "F0 VI" should be "F0 V"
L0108: "K2 IV" should be "K2 V"
M0207: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
M0402: "K2 IV" should be "K2 V"
M0706: "F2 VI" should be "F2 V"
M0707: "F0 VI" should be "F0 V"
N0306: "F1 VI" should be "F1 V"
O0107: "M3 IV" should be "M3 V"
O0302: "F4 VI" should be "F4 V"
O0503: "F4 VI" should be "F4 V"
P0107: "M7 IV" should be "M7 V"
P0205: "F3 VI" should be "F3 V"
P0502: "F1 VI" should be "F1 V"

(done)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] economic crash
References: <200204040108.DHJ05083@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1dbff$e6158d00$fc00a8c0@imogen>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> You're about five or six jumps away, and you hear that the 
> stock has just taken a dive.  It's far too late for you to 
> get out of it.  Would there be any other trading instruments 
> to try and offset this sort of risk?

There are ways to avoid this.

First, rather than invest directly in one or other stock  instead
invest in a unit trust.  These are funds made up of a  basket  of
stocks, so if one collapsed suddenly your losses are cushioned by
the others in the fund.  A fund manger "on-site" then  trades  in
and out of any stocks on that exchange  based  on  circumstances.
His goal is to maximise the fund's performance ... which in  turn
attracts more investors.  Unless the fund manager is  incompetant
you shouldn't loose unless the whole exchange is in decline.

Second, you let your broker buy and sell on your behalf: you  can
give him instructions ranging from a  few  sentences  to  several
pages ... this is called a client  mandate  (where  you  are  the
client).  For example: a simple mandate might say "sell any stock
whose price drops below  the  purchase  price  and  reinvest  any
monies  (including  dividend  payments)   in   manufacturers   of
environmentally friendly products".

Check out StuffOnline ...
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol  and  in  the  Traveller
section you'll find a link called "Financial Markets".



> Or can locals fleece the unwary at a distance?

This is unlikely to happen for two reasons:

(1)  Financial markets are heavily regulated to prevent  fleecing
     ... it can still happen but those who try often face lengthy
     prison terms.

(2)  Brokers and other financial institutions  live  and  die  on
     reputation.  The last thing they  want  is  for  someone  to
     claim they did not  act  in  the  best  interests  of  their
     clients.  (Contrary to popular  belief  the  slogan  of  the
     London financial community is *not* "who dares wins", it  is
     "my word is my bond".)

A bank's  Compliance  Department  doesn't  just  investigate  any
anomalies reported, it will be pro-active and involve itself with
day-to-day business (like a QA department).



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:18:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:18:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Tugs, etc
Message-ID: <200204041934.DIV01979@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I haven't seen many designs for a "tug", a useful vessel for 
attaching to and moving other larger vessels.  Might also be 
useful for moving large asteroids that come in from the outer 
system and pose a hazard to navigation (or even to a planet).

Was just reading
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-space-
menace0404apr04.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnationworld%2Dheadlines

and had a mental picture of some bored tug crew getting 
orders to move out and push this piece of rock into the sun.

"What are you so excited about?  It's just another asteroid."
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:19:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:19:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <F115a0x5eceUXj0sZb00001399a@hotmail.com>

Texas Redshift <texasredshift@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > If the 'Alien' from the movie boarded my ship, <snip> Subsequent
> > events to be determined by the referee.  :->
>
>I liked the movie, but I always thought the crewmembers of the Nostromo had 
>way too much trouble getting their act together.

They had a lot of factors working against them.  Nothing
inside the ship was any kind of secureable except the computer
room, since no one was supposed to be aboard except
triple-cleared company employees.  They had a traitor in their
midst, and a secret agenda going on from their corporate masters.
A small group of wage-slave technicians running a cargo ship
were way out of their league, and had an appropriate casualty
rate.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:20:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:20:20 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <005e01c1dc0d$850509b0$c8d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

 "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
> >Certified?"
> 
> I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor training.
> 
> Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.
> 
> "You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections & standards"
>

Argh. Day job intrudes even here!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:21:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:21:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani Rim data errors?
References: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020403080940.027e7b68@192.168.0.1> <000201c1dbc2$54800920$fc00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <DAV457emxUgjtwxoJ9Y000140e6@hotmail.com>

Per Supplement 10 The Solomani Rim

Ninkhur Sagga    Sol 0602    BAA7769 D   Military Rule  G

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com

> - 2222 Ninkhur Sagga ... lacks any stellar data, and also lacks PBG codes
> 
> Any comments, disagreements, or the missing data for Ninkhur Sagga?
> 
> Regards PLST
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <005e01c1dc0d$850509b0$c8d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404162723.00a8aea0@urbin.net>

At 08:15 PM 4/4/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>  "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
> > >Certified?"
> > I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> > I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor training.
> > Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.
> > "You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections & standards"
>
>Argh. Day job intrudes even here!

Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.


----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"It is both foolish and wicked to teach the average man who is
not well off that some wrong or injustice has been done him,
and that he should hope for redress elsewhere than in his own
industry, honesty, and intelligence." -- Theodore Roosevelt,
"Review of Reviews", January 1897
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 13:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 13:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tugs, etc
Message-ID: <20020404.134744.-5683.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

John

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:34:11 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> I haven't seen many designs for a "tug", a useful vessel for 
> attaching to and moving other larger vessels.  Might also be 
> useful for moving large asteroids that come in from the outer 
> system and pose a hazard to navigation (or even to a planet).

I've adopted a couple of tugs from my Starwars flight sim games XWing and
Tie Fighter. None were used to tow large ships though. Their role was
transporting of various cargo containers, and crew. I designed both the
tugs and cargo containers with MT for MTU.  I also designed jump cargo
transports as well.

You're welcome to ask for them, and even correct flaws in my designing.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:02:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:02:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <200204041157.DIF02066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>

JTK quoted Laning and wrote:
> >Oh, if I do go Marine, how do you feel about my house rule
> >of substituting battle ax skill for cutlass skill as the
> >default Marine 'blade' weapon?
>
>I don't think that the battle axe is something that is
>readily laying around.  I have a hard enough time with the
>default "blade" being anything except bayonet, but that's me.
I'm copying this to the TML, because I think a lot of folks there might 
enjoy it.  :->

Classic Traveller says the default blade skill that Marines cascade to is 
Bayonet.  For reasons of tradition, esprit de corps, inspiring confidence 
in troops, and instilling the proper spirit of attack.  Same reasons that 
Marc Miller had to suffer through bayonet drills when he was in the Army 
even though the widespread opinion of the day was that bayonet training is 
obsolete.  In other words, I think the Traveller ruling is largely a 
product of the times during which it was written.

I like to think that the introduction of practical battle armor would 
change this equation, and it would make a very big impact on fighting in 
boarding actions.  Combat ranges will often be melee distance.  Opponents 
will all be wearing at least vacc suit for armor.  The Imperial Marines 
would have adjusted to this tactical requirement centuries ago, and a 
one-handed battle axe intended to puncture armor would be the default melee 
weapon.  For Marines.  Even if there is widespread opinion that boarding 
actions are rare.  For reasons of tradition, esprit de corps, inspiring 
confidence in troops, and instilling the proper spirit of attack, Imperial 
Marines take the practice very seriously.

Battle axes would be in abundant supply around Navy and Marine 
armories.  And, as you say, not exactly readily laying around anywhere 
else.  Except maybe in 'army surplus shops', a place where people usually 
like to buy militaria.  Also, every Marine recruiting office will have one 
proudly displayed on a wall plaque behind the OIC's or NCOIC's desk, 
crossed with a gauss rifle.  Both weapons very firmly attached to said 
plaque by lots of wiring.  The axe has probably never been sharpened.

There's also the apocryphal, but widely believed, tale of a legendary 
Imperial Marine.  During the Fourth Frontier War, Sergeant Alvin Horatio 
singlehandedly defended the hatchway leading onto his ship's bridge with 
nothing but battle dress and his battle axe for over three hours against 
literally hundreds of Sword Worlders who had boarded the ship.  Meanwhile, 
surviving bridge crew were working in their vacc suits behind him to repair 
control consoles and access antiboarding software routines.  They 
succeeded, and triggered the 'grav ping-pong' routine for the corridor 
outside their bridge.  Tellers of the tale differ over whether Sergeant 
Horatio survived or whether the grav ping-pong killed him along with the 
remainder of his foe.  All versions of the tale agree that he had slain 72 
of the enemy with his battle axe when the battle ended.  The enemy had to 
keep pulling back their corpses just to get enough room to attack him.  It 
is said that Sergeant Horatio originally came from a low tech level, low 
law level planet and grew up in a lumberjacking area.  'Horatio at the 
bridge' is a piece of lore that every Marine has embedded in them.

IMTU, the Imperial Marines replace crossed rifles with a 
rifle-crossed-with-battle-axe on their uniform and unit insignia.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017958207.9067.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> 
> I like to think that the introduction of practical battle armor would 
> change this equation, and it would make a very big impact on fighting in 
> boarding actions.  Combat ranges will often be melee distance.  Opponents 
> will all be wearing at least vacc suit for armor.  The Imperial Marines 
> would have adjusted to this tactical requirement centuries ago, and a 
> one-handed battle axe intended to puncture armor would be the default melee
>  weapon. 

There's one very important reason for the bayonet: it lets you have a melee
weapon while carrying a real weapon (a firearm) as well.  A battleaxe doesn't
do this.

A battleaxe, even with the strength of powered armor behind it, shouldn't have
much of a chance of penetrating any significant level of armor.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Questions, questions
Message-ID: <92.23b50a36.29de2962@aol.com>

--part1_92.23b50a36.29de2962_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


>In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk
>writes:
>
>>>Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's
>>>ridiculous as well.
>>
>>No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H.
>>erectus_
>>and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That
>>actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing
>>it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_
>>showing up as early as that.
>
>H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say
>I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H.
>sapiens back that far.

The book I got my information from was written in 1997, so I think it
qualifies for the term 'modern'. It's been returned to the library, so I
can't provide the name, but a web search of the tern 'archaic Homo
sapiens' provided me with 12 links, the first three of which either put
archaic Homo sapiens that far back or left the qustion open (I didn't
check the rest).

http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/ANTD15/Bill/multi-media.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#moderns

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html#C

Archaic H. sapiens is an interchangeable term for H. heidelbergensis. There 
are clear morphological differences between H. heidelbergensis and H. sapiens 
(and possibly behavioural differences) but the term archaic H. sapiens has 
not yet died out. You sometimes also see H. heidelbergensis called H. sapiens 
heidelbergensis and modern humans called H. sapiens sapiens.

Paleoanthropologists like a good fight about a name - see the current debate 
about H. ergaster / H. erectus for an example.

> 
> 
> >>But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up
> >>tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. 
> In
> >>the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't 
> place
> >>_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.
> >
> >True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are
> >descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be 
> even
> >more arrogant than they already are.
> 
> Whether it would be more interesting is debatable. And such a debate would
> be moot, because that's not the way it is. Both Vilani and zhodani are
> expressly said to be members of _H. sapiens_.
> 
> 
> 
> Hans
> 

And Hivers are said not to use sound in their communication which is 
err...unlikely. Still as you say it's moot because it was written that way.


Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_92.23b50a36.29de2962_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2><BR>
&gt;In a message dated 03/04/02 00:45:13 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk<BR>
&gt;writes:<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;Per canon timeline, it was H. erectus or H. hablis, but that's<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;ridiculous as well.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;No it isn't. I suppose that you mean that current theories puts _H.<BR>
&gt;&gt;erectus_<BR>
&gt;&gt;and _H. habilis_, but not _H. sapiens_, on Earth 300,000 years ago. That<BR>
&gt;&gt;actually depends on the anthropologist you ask. 300,000 years is pushing<BR>
&gt;&gt;it a bit, but some anthropologists do not rule out archaic _H. sapiens_<BR>
&gt;&gt;showing up as early as that.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;H. habilis had died out much earlier than 300,000 years ago. I have to say<BR>
&gt;I've not come across a modern paleoanthropologist who would put true H.<BR>
&gt;sapiens back that far.<BR>
<BR>
The book I got my information from was written in 1997, so I think it<BR>
qualifies for the term 'modern'. It's been returned to the library, so I<BR>
can't provide the name, but a web search of the tern 'archaic Homo<BR>
sapiens' provided me with 12 links, the first three of which either put<BR>
archaic Homo sapiens that far back or left the qustion open (I didn't<BR>
check the rest).<BR>
<BR>
http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/ANTD15/Bill/multi-media.html<BR>
<BR>
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#moderns<BR>
<BR>
http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html#C</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Archaic H. sapiens is an interchangeable term for H. heidelbergensis. There are clear morphological differences between H. heidelbergensis and H. sapiens (and possibly behavioural differences) but the term archaic H. sapiens has not yet died out. You sometimes also see H. heidelbergensis called H. sapiens heidelbergensis and modern humans called H. sapiens sapiens.<BR>
<BR>
Paleoanthropologists like a good fight about a name - see the current debate about H. ergaster / H. erectus for an example.<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt;But even if they didn't and incontrovertible evidence of that showed up<BR>
&gt;&gt;tomorrow, the Traveller universe is not identical to the Real universe. In<BR>
&gt;&gt;the Traveller universe those 20th Century anthropologists who didn't place<BR>
&gt;&gt;_H. sapiens_ that early were mistaken, that's all.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;True, of course, but less interesting since if the Vilani and Zhodani are<BR>
&gt;descended from H. heidelbergensis then the Solamani have an excuse to be even<BR>
&gt;more arrogant than they already are.<BR>
<BR>
Whether it would be more interesting is debatable. And such a debate would<BR>
be moot, because that's not the way it is. Both Vilani and zhodani are<BR>
expressly said to be members of _H. sapiens_.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hans<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
And Hivers are said not to use sound in their communication which is err...unlikely. Still as you say it's moot because it was written that way.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_92.23b50a36.29de2962_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404082015.00ac34e0@mail.verizon.net>
Greetings dear hearts.

ISO9000 can be described thus: -

1. Thou shalt have procedures.

2. Thou shalt follow thy procedures.

3. Thou shalt document that thou hast followed thy procedures.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (long) Re: inheritance Imperial style
In-Reply-To: <006b01c1dbe6$52c83ca0$025d8690@computer>
References: <20020403181406.EE90627A4D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404173305.02b226d0@pop.wizard.net>

Alan Bradley wrote:
> > From: laning
> > IIRC, the Albigensian Crusade was the first Crusade.
>
>Bzzt.  Thank you for playing.  The first crusade ended in 1099.  I've
>grabbed a couple of entries on the Albigensian Crusade from one of my handy
>encyclopedia CDs.
I stand corrected.  Thank you for so kindly pointing that out.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <200204041515.DIL06949@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174015.02af68b0@pop.wizard.net>

>She said, "Oh.  Are they planning on being ISO-9000
>Certified?"

Oh god.  Please.  Never.  What a racket.

BTW, my wife is also a technical writer.  Small world.  :->

I'm afraid to open up the 50-page document you sent because it may put me 
hopeless behind on keeping up with the TML and two PBEM games.  But I 
promise to work on it soon.  The real problem is I will probably want to do 
far more than a trivial amount of work on it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:42:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:42:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <memo.258283@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
Question for JTK - is it too late to join in?

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:51:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:51:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017958207.9067.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174808.00a7d008@urbin.net>

At 02:10 PM 4/4/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>laning writes:
> > I like to think that the introduction of practical battle armor would
> > change this equation, and it would make a very big impact on fighting in
> > boarding actions.  Combat ranges will often be melee distance.  Opponents
> > will all be wearing at least vacc suit for armor.  The Imperial Marines
> > would have adjusted to this tactical requirement centuries ago, and a
> > one-handed battle axe intended to puncture armor would be the default melee
> >  weapon.
>There's one very important reason for the bayonet: it lets you have a melee
>weapon while carrying a real weapon (a firearm) as well.  A battleaxe doesn't
>do this.

The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF 
since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.


>A battleaxe, even with the strength of powered armor behind it, shouldn't have
>much of a chance of penetrating any significant level of armor.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:57:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:57:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174808.00a7d008@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:
> 
> The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF 
> since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.

Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a reference _since_ Lensman, though there
certainly was one in Lensman.  In any case, it hasn't been a 'staple' exactly.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 14:59:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (nellkyn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 14:59:15 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <001001c1dc2b$d13fac40$a6ecff3e@k5k9u6>

----- Original Message -----
From: Megan Robertson <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] more on the sop


> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404082015.00ac34e0@mail.verizon.net>
> Greetings dear hearts.
>
> ISO9000 can be described thus: -
>
> 1. Thou shalt have procedures.
>
> 2. Thou shalt follow thy procedures.
>
> 3. Thou shalt document that thou hast followed thy procedures.
>
> Hugs and kisses,
>
> Mexal.

Please stop it and make it go away! I've just suffered a BSI surveillance
visit today. Traveller is where I get away from the real world.

Obtrav
Would there be a standards institute in the 3I?
Would ISO 9000 appeal to the Vilani sense bureaucracy?

I for one, don't bloody care on either count.

Neil

Quality Manager by day.
TML Lurker by night.

>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:07:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:07:24 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <164.b94855a.29de3657@cs.com>

--part1_164.b94855a.29de3657_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Mark Urbin writes:


> Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.
> 
> 

Done that.

"My card..."
-------------------------------------

Ambrose Bartholomew Lovejoy
        Accountant-at-War

-------------------------------------

Doug Grimes

--part1_164.b94855a.29de3657_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Tahoma" LANG="0">Mark Urbin writes:
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Tahoma" LANG="0">
<BR>Done that.
<BR>
<BR>"My card..."
<BR>-------------------------------------
<BR>
<BR>Ambrose Bartholomew Lovejoy
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Accountant-at-War
<BR>
<BR>-------------------------------------
<BR>
<BR>Doug Grimes</FONT></HTML>

--part1_164.b94855a.29de3657_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404162723.00a8aea0@urbin.net>
References: <005e01c1dc0d$850509b0$c8d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174321.02af7ac0@pop.wizard.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
 >>>
Even more fun, being a corp auditor for mercenary groups the MegaCorp hires.
<<<

Hm, it might be fun to turn that into a sort of elite super soldier/private 
cop gig.  Combine war fighting skills with investigative skills, and only 
the best of the best are able to do the job effectively.  They get paid 
ridiculously well to go to war zones and verify that everyone from the 
generals to the supply sergeants to the front-line unit leaders really are 
doing what they report they're doing.  They have to verify not only the 
accuracy of financial reports but also compliance with all the various 
regulations affecting mercenaries, including code of war stuff.

A silly idea, but makes for nice cinematic possibilities.

Oh, speaking of which.  I saw three movies in the last two days that might 
be of interest to RPGers.  'We Were Soldiers', 'Blade 2', and 'Resident 
Evil'.  I was surprised to see that my favorite of the three was 'Resident 
Evil'.  My short reviews follow.

'We Were Soldiers'  I was both disappointed and riveted at the same 
time.  Might provide some useful background and even plot ideas to a 
referee sending military units from a peaceful garrison life to a battle 
zone.  The garrison life it shows is a period and setting I'm very familiar 
with from my own childhood, and in some ways it was very convincing, but 
overall it was definitely the Hollywood version where star power counts for 
more than character development, historical accuracy, or anything 
else.  I'm going to try the book, which I suspect is about 100 times 
better.  Mel Gibson did his best but is about fifteen years too old for his 
part.

'Blade 2'  Even more gorily repulsive than I expected.  It's a shame that 
an impressively talented actor like Wesley Snipes only seems to be able to 
make such things.  And a shame to waste the ever-interesting Kris 
Kristofferson on something so vulgar.  He's a Rhodes scholar, and he's come 
to this?  Gaming referees and players alike may find that most of the plot 
twists can be seen coming from several kilometers away.  They did do a nice 
piece of writing when they rationalized a humans working for a vampire with 
the term 'familiar'.  Which was probably in the first 'Blade' but I forgot 
it.  If you're only there looking for source material, leave after the 
first five minutes that show scary high-tech vampires cum martial artists 
infiltrating the good guys' bat cave.  This included the vampires wearing 
insectoid-looking hoods and goggles.  When they'd speak to each other, I at 
first thought that their hoods/masks were doing encryption of their speech 
so it came out like a hissing sound, and presumably their hoods also 
included earphones with built-in decryption of incoming speech.  They were 
actually speaking in a foreign language, I guess.  But 
encrypting/decrypting speech is a cool idea.  Good guys and bad guys alike 
can say whatever they want to each other right in front of their 
enemies.  Just whisper into their built-in mikes.  I should probably go 
pitch this to law enforcement and the military now and see if I can make 
some money from it.  DARPA probably wants to throw money at me.  Oh, Snipes 
"cleverly" places a tiny explosive device on the back of the head of one of 
the vampires, so that he can ensure the vampire's cooperation.  This may 
have a very small interest as source material for gaming.

'Resident Evil'  Like 'Blade', it's a shame a talented actor like Milla 
Jovovich (and some of the rest of its cast) are only getting work in a 
superficial action adventure flick.  But this one has more creativity in 
its little finger than 'Blade' can ever accumulate even if it goes on for 
another twenty sequels.  If you've played the computer game it sprang from, 
then you probably already know the major plot twists, but I've never played 
it, so they were all new to me and mostly kept me guessing until the end, 
which was itself fairly predictable.  But it wasn't trying to be 
unpredictable, and it was fine.  It comes dangerously close for awhile to 
becoming just another "small band versus undead zombies" horror flick, with 
a few nice science fiction touches, but it rose above that.  Like almost 
all "science" fiction movies and a lot of writing, genetics and mutation 
are laughable.  But in context, the disbelief suspenders weren't stretched 
too far.  'Blade' had the exact same problem, but was a bigger strain on 
the suspenders.  'Resident Evil' could have used more character 
development, too, but it did better than most films of its genre at 
this.  Pacing was quite good, and most FX were competent to really 
interesting.  If this film had come out twenty years ago, it probably would 
have been seminal.  Much like 'Alien' was.  It may yet be influential in 
some ways.  This is the only one I've seen of the recent crop of movies 
developed from games.  I'm not nominating it for any Oscar categories that 
I can think of, but it's definitely worth viewing if you've any interest at 
all in this sort of thing.  And if you're a nonhomosexual male like me, 
there's plenty of eye candy for you.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C360B@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

<snip of Laning's movie reviews>

Regarding Resident Evil, it also had some interesting anti-hijack routines
masked as bio-hazard containment.  Particularly liked the system in the hall
leading to the Red Queen :D

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 15:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 15:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <B8D22554.3750B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Because I'm too lazy to figure this out myself (yeah, right!)

I am trying to converts old TML archives into a format that the new Mailman
archiver can use.  Here the problem.  When the messages were originally
saved, they were saved as digests with most of the header stripped of each
message.  The current header looks like this:


    Date: [day of week], [day] [month] [year] [time] [offset]
    From: Poster@domain.com <poster@domain.com>
    Subject: Subject

    [body of message]

    whitespace

    next header

I need to read the date and from lines and generate a new line and insert it
as the first line in the header so that the header looks like this:


    From poster@domain.com [day of week] [month] [day] [time] [year]
    Date: [day of week], [day] [month] [year] [time] [offset]
    From: Poster@domain.com <poster@domain.com>
    Subject: Subject

    [body of message]

    whitespace

    next header

if I can get a script to do this , it looks like we can recover all the TML
and Xboat archives back to 1995 and post them to the web.

Thanks, Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22554.3750B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8D22554.3750B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405100301.A22271@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> I need to read the date and from lines and generate a new line and insert it
> as the first line in the header so that the header looks like this:
> 
>     From poster@domain.com [day of week] [month] [day] [time] [year]
>     Date: [day of week], [day] [month] [year] [time] [offset]
>     From: Poster@domain.com <poster@domain.com>
[...]
> if I can get a script to do this , it looks like we can recover all the TML
> and Xboat archives back to 1995 and post them to the web.

What language would you like the script written in?  I should be able
to do it in Perl relatively easily, if that suits.  The only
difficulty might arise if the original headers don't *exactly* conform
to the format described.

If you send me a 100k or so sample of the archives, I will write a
script and test it out on the sample.  That way, I can check whether
any of the original headers deviate by lacking a comma in the date, or
a strangely formatted email address, or something.  I should have
a script that basically works by tomorrow.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204050006.DJD04253@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a 
>staple of SF since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.
>

Maybe I should re-read Triplanetary, and run a campaign with 
the big gun cruisers like the Chicago.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204050009.DJD04543@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

If I could have an example of both files, I'm sure I could 
write something, but it would be a Windows app.

I do this sort of thing all day long, mostly to pile things 
from spreadsheets and word documents into tables in Oracle.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <20020405100301.A22271@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B8D22C91.37518%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 4:03 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> What language would you like the script written in?  I should be able
> to do it in Perl relatively easily, if that suits.  The only
> difficulty might arise if the original headers don't *exactly* conform
> to the format described.
> 
> If you send me a 100k or so sample of the archives, I will write a
> script and test it out on the sample.  That way, I can check whether
> any of the original headers deviate by lacking a comma in the date, or
> a strangely formatted email address, or something.  I should have
> a script that basically works by tomorrow.

SAMPLE FOLLOWS:

####################################
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #999
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
Errors-To: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
Precedence: bulk


Traveller-digest       Monday, August 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 999



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: HEPlar lives!
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
OT but interesting Keith Bro. note
Re: Hudson-class Lander (GTL9)
Re: Low ship weight
Re: Grav deck plates.
Re: Low ship weight (and Grav Plates too)
Starship Combat Tweak
Re: Bureaucrats
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #998
Re: RE Squad Leader LONG
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Grav deck plates.
Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)
Off topic - Insulting Leonard
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)
Re: Slings and Outrageous Fortunes of War
Re: Andre Norton Followups...
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
Re: Cloning (was Hard Science)
BITS and delays in response
Re: The Heritage Trilogy
Re Slings

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: HEPlar lives!

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Well, how about "large" deep holes? :-)

As long as by 'large deep holes' you mean 'wider than it is deep' sure.  A
typical free trader would probably make a crater some 20-30m deep and
50-100m across.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:18:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Tom writes:

> > *cough*.  If you really want people toasting small cities with their
> > engines, go for it.  HEPlaR has a power output of roughly 15 megawatts
> > per  newton of thrust -- your average free trader, at something like 20
> > million  newtons thrust, generates the equiva
> > lent of a 50 kiloton nuclear weapon every second...
> 
> Just curious, but isn't this why most downports have landing pads separated
>  from living quarters?  Some of them with high earthwork walls? ...or am I
>  missing the point?

Yah, you're missing the point.  You have the equivalent of a strategic
nuclear weapon going off every time a ship lands or takes off, this will
destroy the landing field in a single landing (in fact, it will also tend to
destroy the ship) and destroy the entire port in short order.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:15:54 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: OT but interesting Keith Bro. note

Just thumbing through Cinescape magazine and noticed an article about a
new Dune novel. It's being written by Brian Herbert (son of Frank) and
Kevin J. Keith. Since this book (actually first of a trilogy) is a
prequel to the classics, it might have some further insight into the
classic Dunes Imperial politics, maybe fodder for 3I politics?
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:23:37 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hudson-class Lander (GTL9)

>> OK, OK, we'll play "Flight of the Valkyries" while we approach, "Will ye
>no
>> come back again" after we land.
>>
>
>Awwww, not "Flight"  It's been done to death, can't we have something
>original?


Isn't that *Ride* of the Valkyries?

Although I seem to remember that the direct translation is "The Valkyries"
so it might well be a cross-pond translation thing.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:29:09 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Low ship weight

>I read somewhere (I think it was an issue of Challenge) that if cargoes of
>greater than standard density (ie 1 ton per cubic meter) were carried, the
>ships performance should be re-calculated if it was likely to take the
ships
>mass over 15 tons per cubic meter.


Yep.

But then, I tend to recalculate the ship's performance every time we change
the cargo load, so I'm more twisted than most players.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:31:39 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Grav deck plates.

>But if you are along a wall (or the floor or ceiling) you'll *also*
>stay right there unless some force moves you.


Under AG you're pushing against the floor with enough force to accelerate
you upward at 1 gee, at least momentarily. Unless you can adjust that force
perfectly to match the decrease in AG (which you probably can't if it's
instantaneous and comes without warning) then you'll push yourself off.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:35:40 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Low ship weight (and Grav Plates too)

>Got me thinking:  Is 20 tonnes per displacement ton the maximum deck
>loading?


Even if it is then it's possible to build a specialised cradle to spread the
weight of particularly heavy cargoes. The maximum deck pressure wouldn't be
much of a problem for properly packaged and loaded freight, but it could be
if the players are trying to recover a relic grav tank or something....


>On a vaguely related thread, suppose you drop a huge cargo container onto
>you deck plate from a height of a few metres.  How much damage would it do?
>Would it screw up the grav plate?  (I ask purely from interest of course,
my
>character would never actually have done such a thing to her ship...)


Well, taking current ships and aircraft as a basis, that's would utterly
knacker your floor, probably requiring expensive repairs and maybe even
making a hole. A couple of metres is a long way to fall under 1g. The grav
plate? Well, I'd say that's pretty much up to the GM.


NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:31:26 -0500
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Starship Combat Tweak

First, I want to thank everyone who answered my Starship Combat
question.  All of you really made me think about the nature of starship
combat at very close ranges.  There were several thoughts that I
probably would not have come up with on my own (in fact, I know I
wouldn't have thought in some directions at all).

Thanks.

You've been a big help to my game.

I LOVE this freaking list.



RANGE MODS:

Anyway, I've simplified the thoughts, and I've come up with a simple
addition to CT starship combat.

I'm just adding two different range modifiers to the to hit throw.
These were derived from your comments and the two range modifiers
already printed in the CT rules.

Range to target 5,000 km or closer?     +2 DM

Range to target 2,000 km or closer?      +5 DM



HEX/RANGE BAND SIZE:

For the close ranges in this boarding scenario, I've changed the
hex/range band size to 1,000 km each.



LENGTH OF ROUND:

To coincide with the internal combat going on inside the ships, I'm
changing the starship combat round for this scenario to a 6 second
round--just like the personal combat round I'm using.

I'll probably run 3-5 rounds inside the ship, then 3-5 rounds outside,
keeping everything constant.



ROF:

Looking at T4's Starships book (imagine that!  I used it!), I see that
most lasers on small scale ships have an ROF of 10 (for the 10 minute T4
combat round).  With extra power, those all can easily be boosted to 100
ROF.

Doing the required math, those weapons will fire exactly once per 6
seconds (with the ROF 100 figure).

That's perfect.  In this very close range scenario I have, these two
ships carving away at each other should turn out to be a meatgrinder of
an encounter.

That's exactly what I want.

Thanks again, to all.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:37:30 -0700
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Bureaucrats

Of course, with your average group of PCs, this will last for about five
minutes before someone decides to show the offending bureacrat his "special
authorization", aka the business end of a firearm...



- --------------
Kelly St.Clair   "At last we will reveal our pants to the Jedi.  At last we
kellys@efn.org    will have revenge."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:40:52 -0700
From: "Mike Linsenmayer" <mlinsenmayer@symantec.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #998

Can someone send me a e-mail if they see this in the post...
Still having problems posting....
mlinsenmayer@symantec.com

I have some new artwork.. not good as Jesses though  ;)

http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace/art/picture-b.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:43:15 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: RE Squad Leader LONG

>>Note that lasers, can paint targets for guided munitions at darn near any
>>range in SL terms. (Unless you've got 16 boards stuck end to end. <grin>)
>
> Thus, if a squad can keep a LOS on a target, that target
> could be hit almost all the time at TL 9 (roll 11- on 2D?).


35 hits out of 36 with laser-guided munitions?

Are you American, by any chance? <g>

NB
- --
(Before y'all flame me - I'm kidding...)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:44:44 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

>> Just curious, but isn't this why most downports have landing pads
separated
>>  from living quarters?  Some of them with high earthwork walls? ...or am
I
>>  missing the point?
>
>Yah, you're missing the point.  You have the equivalent of a strategic
nuclear weapon going off every time a ship lands or takes off, this will
destroy the landing field in a single landing (in fact, it will also tend to
destroy the ship) and destroy the entire port in short order.


Indeed.

Which is why (okay, I use the TNE rules) I assume ships take off under
contra-grav (air bouyancy) and occasioanl low-thrust puffs from the engines
for directional control.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:52:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Nick Bradbeer writes:
 
> Indeed.
> 
> Which is why (okay, I use the TNE rules) I assume ships take off under
> contra-grav (air bouyancy) and occasioanl low-thrust puffs from the engines
> for directional control.

Oh, certainly, as long as you have ships with both CG and HEPlaR, and only
use HEPlaR in space, you're fine -- however, standard designs frequently
don't have contragravity.  HEPlaR is a fast way to commit suicide in any
sort of atmosphere, or near the ground.  Incidentally, contragravity is
capable of doing directional control without any use of thrust anyway.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:57:23 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

>Oh, certainly, as long as you have ships with both CG and HEPlaR, and only
use HEPlaR in space, you're fine -- however, standard designs frequently
don't have contragravity.  HEPlaR is a fast way to commit suicide in any
sort of atmosphere, or near the ground.  Incidentally, contragravity is
capable of doing directional control without any use of thrust anyway.


Well, every single ship in Brilliant Lances (that's all the classic designs)
has contra grav, except for the Lab Ship, Donosev, Chrysanthemum and Aurora.
All those four are unstreamlined, and thus not atmosphere-capable.


I thought CG could only change the magnitude of your gravitational vector
(ie reducing it by up to two orders of magnitude), not affect the direction
of it. If it can affect the vector's direction, has it not just become a
thruster plate?

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:07:52 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Grav deck plates.

At 01:03 AM 8/23/99 -0800, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
> > That was my solution in a (forgive me, I have sinned... I was young,
> > naive...) Star Trek game once.  After the bad guys transported to our
> > bridge.  Hold on to the console, and just flip the AG on and off.... as
> > everyone floats off the deck and then crashes back down.
>
>Not-so-silly question.
>
>Why would they "float off the deck"?
>
>Seriously, this is *the* single biggest error in damn near every movie,
>TV program and even *story* that deals with zero-g.
>
>If you are in the middle of a compartment in zero g, you'll stay there
>unless some force pulls or pushes you out of that location.
>
>But if you are along a wall (or the floor or ceiling) you'll *also*
>stay right there unless some force moves you.
>
>Removing gravity *won't* make you "float up". But your muscles mighgt
>push you off gently.

Well, at that particular moment, the bad guys (can't remember who they were
now...Cardassians maybe...)  had just transported aboard and were in the
process of running around the bridge disarming the crew, shouting at
people, and generally swaggering a lot (on second thought, maybe they were
Klingons...).  It seemed to me that chances were good that most of them
were in the process of taking a step as the gravity shut off, and would
thus be flung away from the floor.  Even those that were standing perfectly
still, would still automatically shift their weight when the gravity was
released and be unable to regain balance quickly enough to avoid falling.

IMHO, this would certainly not work against any Traveller combatants, who
are routinely trained for Zero-G operations, but remember that these were
_Star_Trek_ villains... And at least until Star Trek 6, there's been almost
no evidence that anyone in that world could fight in Zero-G.  Well, Spock
maybe....

           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
                          defend to the death your right to say it."
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
                                           -- Albert Einstein
for PGP public-key and
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:15:00 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)

Tascelt@aol.com posted:
>
>Damn it Jesse!!  Tim and I have been suggesting shirts to you for years and

>NOW your're going to do it?
>
>TAS

Ah, but *I* made a critical success roll on my Sucking Up skill.

;-)

David

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:01:45 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Off topic - Insulting Leonard

Phil Kitching wrote:

>Interesting.
>
>I thought asterisks represent bold or emphasis.
>
>Also that underscores represent underlining, which represents italics.

*Bold*

_Underline_

/Italic/

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Nick Bradbeer writes:
 
> I thought CG could only change the magnitude of your gravitational vector
> (ie reducing it by up to two orders of magnitude), not affect the direction
> of it. If it can affect the vector's direction, has it not just become a
> thruster plate?

Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only be
used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
local force of gravity.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:44:44 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

>> I thought CG could only change the magnitude of your gravitational vector
>> (ie reducing it by up to two orders of magnitude), not affect the
direction
>> of it. If it can affect the vector's direction, has it not just become a
>> thruster plate?
>
>Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only be
used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
local force of gravity.



Where does it say this? I only have access to CT and TNE canon.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:52:27 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Shirt picture favorites? (Was Hats off.....)

Replying late to this thread, but I'd _dearly_ love to see:

 Scout base on Gas Giant Moon
 Starport Cover Outtake
 Empress Marava in port
 Highport with Free Trader



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:26:30 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Slings and Outrageous Fortunes of War

>Actually, it sounds more like a human powered trebuchet...


Yes, but they did exist..
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:17:52 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Andre Norton Followups...

>Also, you can go *nuts* trying to tie Norton's books together. I
>believe that Catseye (or one of the other books dealing with Forerunner
>artifacts) has a passing reference to the Caverns of Arzor. Which ties
>that book/series to the Hosteen Storm books. Only problem is, in the
>latter series, Earth has been rendered uninhabitable. Yet I can show
>links equally good to books like The Last Planet. :-)

The Last Planet was the ***first*** real book I ever read, as well as the
first novel and first science fiction book.  I've always imagined that the
books take place against a multi-millennium long background.  Humans
discover spaceflight by time mining the secret of spacetravel from Foreunner
technology. They start exploring space and colonizing. Eventually they meet
other races and eventually supplant them almost entirely. Over the centuries
the location of Earth is entirely forgotten, though the legend lives on.

If you figure that the stories are generally separated by centuries it's
much easier to accept the inconsistancie.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:41:31 -0700
From: Edward Swatschek <edjs@bitslayer.net>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

At 11:37 99/08/23 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
>gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only
>be used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
>local force of gravity.

This depends on the game system being used.  In TNE/FF&S, contragravity
simply reduced the gravitational vector over a specific volume by 99%.  In
an atmosphere, this might make the ship neutrally or positively buoyant,
but no thrust is involved - that would be provided by HEPlaR or some other
engine.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:05:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Edward Swatschek writes:

> This depends on the game system being used.  In TNE/FF&S, contragravity
> simply reduced the gravitational vector over a specific volume by 99%.  In
> an atmosphere, this might make the ship neutrally or positively buoyant,
> but no thrust is involved - that would be provided by HEPlaR or some other
> engine.
 
Um...wrong ;)  It provided 10-20% of gravitational force sideways in
TNE/FF&S.  In Striker it could provide any amount of sideways force.  I
don't know about T4 or MT.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:10:22 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

Edward Swatschek wrote:
> 
> At 11:37 99/08/23 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> >Well, it can only get a limited fraction of local gravity perpendicular to
> >gravity.  Contragravity is like a thruster plate, except that it can only
> >be used close to a planet, since its thrust is reduced proportional to the
> >local force of gravity.
> 
> This depends on the game system being used.  In TNE/FF&S, contragravity
> simply reduced the gravitational vector over a specific volume by 99%.  In
> an atmosphere, this might make the ship neutrally or positively buoyant,
> but no thrust is involved - that would be provided by HEPlaR or some other
> engine.

In FF&S2, page 18 (gravitic vehicle design sequence):  "Most of the
force is directed parallel to the gravity field (straight up and down),
but a fraction of the lift is available to provide thrust."

This sentence is repeated almost verbatim on page 65, dealing with
thrust agencies.

Under "Reactionless Thrusters" (also page 65, FF&S2):
"...'Contragravity' at earlier tech levels can only interact with the
local gravitational field (and is hence limited to use near a planetary
surface)...."

Hope this helps....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:28:37 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com>
Subject: Re: Cloning (was Hard Science)

> Tom wrote:
> > Perhaps this is one of the reasons that cloning never took off big in the
> > 3I, Ziru Sirka, or Rule of Man.  Surely the nobility in all three Imperiums
> > wouldn't want an emperor/emperess to live forever even in cloned form.  The
> > Moot would never stand for it.  OTOH there were alot of emperors in the 3I
> > that were suceeded by assassination.  Maybe they were looking in to the
> > forbidden(?) science of cloning?
> 
> Well, other than Cleon the Mad, and Strephon the Clone, the rest of the
> Emperors who died by 'right of assasination' were all Barracks Emperors during
> the Civil War. They all died not for experimenting with cloning, but
> experimenting with crowning themselves Emperor.;-)

You're forgetting the Empress that Cleon The Not Wrapped Too Tight whacked.
<grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
                                                     Science-Fiction
Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:15:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS and delays in response

Hi all,

DISCLAIMER - Not an official statement on behalf of BITS, but an
explanation:

Some of you writing to us by email may have seen some delay in response
from BITS. Firstly, we aren't ignoring you! BITS is run by volunteers, and
at the moment we are pulling together the material for release at GenCon UK
99, preparing to run the trade stand, 3 RPGA tournaments and a number of
demonstrations, and dealing with real life(tm) (imminent fatherhood for
some people, major work projects etc). We only have a small active CORE
<grin> which means that time is being juggled.

At present, we have four books in the last stages of preparation (you've
seen 3 advertised here, ACQ being the fourth) plus three tournaments (which
require nearly the same effort), and we're also doing the usual newsletter,
2nd hand material and website...

Hopefully, once GenCon is out of the way things will calm down, and we'll
go through the non-urgent mails. if you need to contact someone at BITS
(bits@bits.org.uk) urgently, mark your subject line URGENT, or copy me (for
example). I hope to see some of you in the flesh at GenCon UK 99, maybe for
a drink at the bar, or a game at the stand or the demo area. FWIW we are
actually in two locations this year - in the trade hall, and running demos
in the balcony above (GURPS Traveller & T4 as the standards, but I'm sure
we'll get volunteers for CT, MT and TNE as ever). As ever, we're happy for
anyone who wants to volunteer to try their hand at running a game/demo.

All the best,

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
                       MiB - Marines in Battledress
   "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:22:13 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: The Heritage Trilogy

At 06:01 AM 8/23/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I started with the second one, Luna Marine. It's definitely a lot less
>jingoistic than the first, concentrating less on the UN as an evil empire
>and more on the ramifications of the "Hunters of Dawn". The "Hunters of
>Dawn" are dominate cultures that go around killing off lower tech cultures
>before they evolve enough technology to kill them. A very cool thought for a
>Traveller campaign.

Wasn't that the premise of Weber's Mutineer Moon/Armageddon inheritance
series as well?

           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
                          defend to the death your right to say it."
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
                                           -- Albert Einstein
for PGP public-key and
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:28:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Slings

>William F. Hostman wrote:
>>
>> A staff sling is essentially a hand sling on a 2m pole... and is not
>> twirled, but used exactly like an atlatl, only much easier to do
>> successfully.
>
>Actually, it sounds more like a human powered trebuchet...
>
Trebuchets keep a cup fixed to the end of the arm, and the cup remains open.

Staff slings: the sling's cup is attached by two lines (3-4 feet long is
good). One of these is fixed to the pole near the end. The other string is
terminated in a loop small enough not to fall past the first one's
fixation, but loose enough to fall off if you point the tip down. The start
position is with the staff parrallel tothe deck tip behind you, with a
loaded pocket.Generally, you then (rapidly) bring forward the staff til it
is roughly 45 degrees from parallel in front of you. The second loop lets
go normally about when you stop the swing, but the cup is lagging. When the
string lets go, several things happen, including putting a spin on the
projectile, converting that rotational velocity into linear velocity, and
also opening up the cup to actually let the projectile go.

The thing can be used while kneeling (I've done it). In a Short trench, two
guys could work it easily.

Oh, and just for reference, a golf ball can occasionally be sent  over 200
m in flat terrain by a practiced stafslinger.

William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click
interface!"
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-
533
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis
http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis    ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #999
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <200204050028.DJF00683@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I expect that there will be major revisions, and additions.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:29:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:29:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204050009.DJD04543@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 4:09 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> If I could have an example of both files, I'm sure I could
> write something, but it would be a Windows app.
> 

Repeat after me

windows = hell
Bill Gates = anitchrist

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 16:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bryn Monnery)
Date: Thu Apr  4 16:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <182.62a974a.29dca666@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405015316.02b11020@pop.mail.yahoo.com>

At 13:39 03/04/02 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 02/04/02 22:58:51 GMT Daylight Time, 
>ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:
>
>
>>TL15 traveller reactors are P-P reactors which fuse all the way up to 
>>He4.  One
>>assumes the neutron problems have been solved.
>
>
>Explain please why phosphorous - phosphorous fusion reactors are fusing 
>"up" to He4 :)

Protium - Protium fusion (Protium = Hydrogen-1, Deuterium = Hydrogen-2, 
Tritium = Hydgrogen-3)

Bryn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:06:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:06:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod says that Microsoft and Bill Gates are evil
<snip>

Yes, but that's what my customers use.
I used to have my head in the sand, and only worked on OS/2 
and Solaris machines.

I was unemployed for quite a while.

Then, I started chanting

By the beans of Java
I set my mind in motion...

and did the Windows dance.  And said, "I like making Larry 
Ellison rich.  Everyone buy Oracle now."

Let's not mention that I like Smalltalk, Unix, and DB/2.

ObTrav:  There has to be a similar monopoly in Imperial 
space, and everyone would buy into it, even if it didn't work 
very well.  There have to be "standards", you know.  And it 
wouldn't be the best system, or language, or database, etc. 
It would be the one that had the most ruthless marketing.  
And no Imperial law would stop it.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why piracy (and penguins) must exist
In-Reply-To: <3CAA76E1.BA4A2BC6@premier.net>
References: <20020403000730.96195.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b8d00cc844f2@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA5DD8.CA826C39@premier.net>
 <p04330105b8d0233486e4@[143.232.119.186]> <3CAA76E1.BA4A2BC6@premier.net>
Message-ID: <p04330105b8d2ab0aa6d7@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:28 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
>"David P. Summers" wrote:
>>
>>  At 7:41 PM -0600 4/2/02, John Groth wrote:
>>  >"David P. Summers" wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >>  In the Traveller setting penguins can't exist.  The Imperium would
>>  >>  tag then all and then be able to track them with their planetary
>>  >>  arrays.....
>>  >
>>  >Well, sure, but then the penguins simply change their tag codes and
>>  >masquerade as SDBs in evening wear....
>>
>>  But the tags would be unforgeable based on the penguins DNA!  Clearly
>>  this would be justified based on the threat that penguins pose.  (How
>>  could the Imperium  claim to control their territory if penguins roam
>>  free?)
>
>Then the penguins merely graft a patch of non-penguin-waterfowl skin and
>feathers to the tag attachment point (ideally waterfowl generally
>engaged as tramp freighters or system defense birds), change the tag
>code to suit the new DNA and proceed on their marauding ways.... ;-)
>
>The struggle between measure and countermeasure is a never-ending one,
>as neither side is likely to gain lasting superiority.

But the Imperium has so many ships that they could afford to have one 
sitting anyplace a penguin might threaten the public safety!
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMELMDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Bill doesn't rate higher than apostate or a false profit, tops

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

on 4/4/02 4:09 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> If I could have an example of both files, I'm sure I could
> write something, but it would be a Windows app.
>

Repeat after me

windows = hell
Bill Gates = anitchrist

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 17:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr  4 17:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEELNDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Must be the company that makes the Anti-Hijacking software for CT. Or
whoever made fighter craft so impotent.

I want a PA barbette on my Mk V fighter! waaaah

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

ObTrav:  There has to be a similar monopoly in Imperial
space, and everyone would buy into it, even if it didn't work
very well.  There have to be "standards", you know.  And it
wouldn't be the best system, or language, or database, etc.
It would be the one that had the most ruthless marketing.
And no Imperial law would stop it.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 18:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr  4 18:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204051011470.16403-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Tod:

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Repeat after me
>
> windows = hell
> Bill Gates = anitchrist

 Ah a man with similiar sentiments.

"Windows is not the answer. It is the problem. The answer is NO!"

"Window, just say NO!!"

 From your friendly Biased Commodore only user. <VBG>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 18:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr  4 18:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404124402.02b29d20@pop.wizard.net>
References: <200204041157.DIF02066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404185037.009f1170@mindspring.com>

At 05:04 PM 4/4/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Classic Traveller says the default blade skill that Marines cascade to is 
>Bayonet.  For reasons of tradition, esprit de corps, inspiring confidence 
>in troops, and instilling the proper spirit of attack.  Same reasons that 
>Marc Miller had to suffer through bayonet drills when he was in the Army 
>even though the widespread opinion of the day was that bayonet training is 
>obsolete.

Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while 
desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to 
perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 19:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 19:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404174808.00a7d008@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404215235.01f48c40@192.168.0.1>

At 02:56 PM 4/4/2002 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Mark Urbin writes:
> >
> > The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF
> > since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.
>
>Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a reference _since_ Lensman, though 
>there
>certainly was one in Lensman.  In any case, it hasn't been a 'staple' exactly.

Ok, I stand corrected.  It's been around since Lensmen, and it *should* be 
a staple of SF. :-)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 19:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 19:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404185037.009f1170@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/4/02 6:52 PM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while
> desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to
> perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.
> 

In point of fact, the bayonet is more of a hazard to the soldier than an
aide.  During the last war for which we have statistics (Vietnam), more
soldiers injured themselves with bayonets than were injured by enemy
bayonets.  This is also true of WWII.

Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary weapon of the
infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  number of wounds caused by
bayonets was extremely small.

The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed civilians.  It has little or
no military application, contrary to popular mythos.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 19:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr  4 19:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
References: <200204041157.DIF02066@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020404185037.009f1170@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c1dc54$e81469a0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Berry" <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while
> desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to
> perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.

Tell that to the British Para's...

The don't seem to feel a war is a war until they have done at least one
Bayonet Charge...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <20020405003207.32532279F6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CAD22FC.313506AE@earthlink.net>

Walt Smith posted:
> 
> They had a lot of factors working against them.  Nothing
> inside the ship was any kind of secureable except the computer
> room, since no one was supposed to be aboard except
> triple-cleared company employees.  They had a traitor in their
> midst, and a secret agenda going on from their corporate masters.
> A small group of wage-slave technicians running a cargo ship
> were way out of their league, and had an appropriate casualty
> rate.

And how would you rate the Colonial Marine unit in "Aliens"?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>

I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler
had a Derringer attached to some kind of mechanical
"holster". The device was worn somehow on the forearm
and pushed the gun into the hand.

Can anyone tell me what this device was and where
I could find details on it?


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404231607.01f78e88@192.168.0.1>

At 10:13 PM 4/4/2002 -0600, David Smart wrote:
>I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler
>had a Derringer attached to some kind of mechanical
>"holster". The device was worn somehow on the forearm
>and pushed the gun into the hand.
>Can anyone tell me what this device was and where
>I could find details on it?

Secret Service Agent James West (Wild Wild West TV show) had one too.
They loved gadgets on that show.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 20:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Thu Apr  4 20:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404231607.01f78e88@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000501c1dc5d$168ea180$2f7de40c@loki>

At 10:13 PM 4/4/2002 -0600, David Smart wrote:
>I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler

All I found are references to 'spring-loaded arm rigs' and a lot of fan
fiction to the Magnificent Seven in my google search.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B8D28F8B.37603%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
In-Reply-To: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405024811.02b7a0e0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon says:
>Makes me think that a lot of navigators will get their
>training doing Imperial x-boat, and then change career to fly
>for a private broker or a merchant line that contracts to
>brokers.

Nice touch it.  I'll use it.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Navigator skill affecting jump duration & accuracy (was Re:
 economic crash)
In-Reply-To: <002d01c1dbf2$1d1b9500$52200050@matt>
References: <200204041450.DIL03805@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405024958.02b7bec0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon suggested a rule for dicing precise jump duration in plus or 
minus hours from the nominal of precisely seven days.

My memory of the 'Starship Operators Manual' from DGP isn't detailed 
enough, but they had rules on this that I really liked.  It started to give 
Navigation skill a useful purpose besides making sure somebody aboard had 
at least one level of it.  Sadly, my copy of SOP is among my trove of 
mislaid Favorite Traveller References that _still_ evades detection.  If 
only I could offer the other inanimate objects in my house a bounty for 
dropping a dime on the missing trove.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr  4 23:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr  4 23:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C360B@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405025738.02b7da30@pop.wizard.net>

At 03:34 PM 4/4/02 -0800, you wrote:
><snip of Laning's movie reviews>
>
>Regarding Resident Evil, it also had some interesting anti-hijack routines
>masked as bio-hazard containment.  Particularly liked the system in the hall
>leading to the Red Queen :D
>
>Jesse

Yeah, that was medieval.  In an extremely high tech way.  I think 'Resident 
Evil' has quite a bit of useful source material for RPGs, but I didn't want 
to get into spoilers.

Oh.  Jesse, my wife and I both loved the Britannia site, thanks.  The 
interior shots are all _perfect_ for use to illustrate a Traveller yacht 
(well, maybe not the bridge interior, lol).  I am completely unskilled at 
doing such things but I thought it would be great to take the ones with 
portholes and show stars or a planet from low orbit or something outside.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 00:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Fri Apr  5 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c1dc7a$655e8a60$f000a8c0@imogen>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor
> training.

I used to work a a company that tried for (and got) ISO 9000/9001
certification: it was easy-peasy!

1) Have a documented procedure for everything
2) Make sure all staff know where the latest  versions  of  those
   documents are (ie. where on the PC server)

The fact that we didn't actually follow those  procedures  (close
scrutiny would have revealed they were unworkable anyhow)  didn't
seem to matter.

Its just a case of understanding the game.



> Evil thing to pull on merchant characters.
> 
> "You wanna haul our cargo, you gotta pass our inspections &
> standards"

Make a "saving throw" against Admin skill to understand the  game
and avoid any significant impediments.  In MT terms ...



    To comply with local business standards.
    Routine, Admin and EDU, 1 hour (safe)

    Referee: If not familiar with local customs (ie. offworlders)
             then  increase  difficulty  to  Difficult.   Trading
             is limited until this task is passed successfully.




Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 00:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 00:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>

Any of you guys know Ruby?
http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/index.html

A guy I respect _very_ much is presently raving about it.
http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2001/10/25/ruby.html

It might as well be Sanskrit to me, I haven't looked at it at all.  But if 
Colin likes it, I like it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 00:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 00:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMELMDJAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>

BillGatus of Borg.  Bah.  I shake my head, bereft of words.

Anyway.  Back when I was doing tech support on the phones for AOL, I talked 
a guy about three times who would always pepper his conversation with how 
little respect he had for Gates, and "I knew that guy back when he went 
from user group to user group selling his stuff out of the back of a 
station wagon."  It was amusing as hell, though I didn't let that guy know 
I thought so or we would have got way off topic for a long time.  I hope 
you get a laugh out of that one.

ObTrav:  In the early 1100s, is there anyone who occupies a position 
analogous to Bill Gates in our own society today?  In terms of being 
notoriously rich and geeky and merciless and rich and reviled and admired 
and rich and ubiquitous and rich and not even Ministry of Justice bullets 
can stop him.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 04:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 04:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204051219.DKC00217@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary 
>weapon of the infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  
>number of wounds caused by bayonets was extremely small.
>

Bayonets were used successfully in the Falklands.

Also, if I find someone at the end of my bayonet, it's 
unlikely that they'll be "wounded".  It's equally unlikely 
that they'll make it to the aid station.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 04:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Fri Apr  5 04:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCMEEHDOAA.andy@exeus.com>

Try

	http://www.cia.gov/spy_fi/item21.html

and

	http://home.earthlink.net/~backslash/

They're called Sleeveguns and cost $295.

Andy Brick
andy@exeus.com
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.344 / Virus Database: 191 - Release Date: 02/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 04:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr  5 04:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B6C@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
> Sent: 05 April 2002 13:20
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
> 
> 
> Tod Glenn says
> >Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary 
> >weapon of the infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  
> >number of wounds caused by bayonets was extremely small.
> >
> 
> Bayonets were used successfully in the Falklands.

True, but the Bayonet Charge(s?) in the Falklands produced few
casualties from bayonet wounds. The principal aim of a bayonet charge is
to cause the flight or surrender of the defenders of a position. One of
the Argentinians on the receiveing end of the charge recounted in a
documentary some years later that as a 19 year old conscript the sight
of 40 or so strapping Para's charging at him with fixed bayonets,
screaming as they came, filled him with such terror that he couldn't
move... he was fixated on the fact that those guys coming at him wanted
to stick whacking great holes in him, up close and personal. As soon as
the initial terror subsided he (and now I can't recall exactly which)
either threw down his weapon and ran for his life, or threw down his
weapon and surrendered.

To quote Corporal Jones in Dad's Army... "Cold Steel, Sir. They don't
like it up 'em!"

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 05:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Fri Apr  5 05:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
References: <3CAD246F.E203BABA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DAV33JYS74UiXodol1500008c87@hotmail.com>

Christian in Action has a picture of the sleeve gun assembly used by Bob
Conrad in Thee Wild, Wild West at

http://www.cia.gov/spy_fi/item21.html

The man who made the original prop was (is?) selling them to people sans
firearm.  His website at sleevegun.com is now under construction, but you
can see Google's cache of his site at

http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:_T42pJBhY0UC:sleevegun.com/+sleevegun&h
l=en&ie=UTF8

This site includes a picture of an arm rig.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com

> I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler
> had a Derringer attached to some kind of mechanical
> "holster". The device was worn somehow on the forearm
> and pushed the gun into the hand.
>
> Can anyone tell me what this device was and where
> I could find details on it?
>
>
> David
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 05:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr  5 05:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405134530.5456.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> Repeat after me
> 
> windows = hell
> Bill Gates = anitchrist

Although my Dante is rusty and my personal sentiments
don't agree...

"Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."

To Paraphrase...

"Better to trust your livlihood to Billy Bob's Window
World than to not make any living at all."

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 06:42:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri Apr  5 06:42:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
References: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt> <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se> <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt> <5.1.0.14.2.20020402201259.009ec960@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CADB846.8070706@gmx.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

 > At 07:40 PM 4/2/02 +0200, you wrote:
 >
 >> Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
 >> food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
 >> predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
 >> for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world
 >> under
 >> the ice.
 >
 >
 > Jedi Jellyfish Under The Ice!  I love it!
 >
 >
Yes...but they're probably easy meat for the Imperial Penguin Corps.

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump. 
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <F120FrbDLuPOuIGGsMq000028cf@hotmail.com>

From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>

     "I've seen a couple of Westerns in which a gambler had a Derringer 
attached to some kind of mechanical "holster". The device was worn somehow 
on the forearm and pushed the gun into the hand."

     "Can anyone tell me what this device was and where I could find details 
on it?"


Mr. Smart,

     My admittedly brief Google search turned up little more than a lot of 
"Magnificent Seven" fan-fics.  Fiddling with the search words should bear 
fruit however.
     Another pop culture reference for such a device cn be found in 
Harrison's "Deathworld" trilogy.  The Pyrrhans(sp) are outfitted with a 
contraption that slams a very large, hair-triggered, pistol into their fists 
at the slightest twitch.  The hero, Jason din Alt mentions how learning to 
use the damn thing nearly breaks his hand.
     I've also seen gizmos tucked up one's sleeve that deliver playing 
cards.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <200204051219.DKC00217@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D2FF19.37640%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 4:19 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Bayonets were used successfully in the Falklands.

Define 'successfully'.  How many casualties were produced by bayonets?
> 
> Also, if I find someone at the end of my bayonet, it's
> unlikely that they'll be "wounded".  It's equally unlikely
> that they'll make it to the aid station.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3611@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Just to set things straight, it was John Groth that recommended the
Brittania site [tips Diet Pepsit to John <'cause it's too early for beer ;)
>]
Jesse

<snip>
Oh.  Jesse, my wife and I both loved the Britannia site, thanks.  The 
interior shots are all _perfect_ for use to illustrate a Traveller yacht 
(well, maybe not the bridge interior, lol).  I am completely unskilled at 
doing such things but I thought it would be great to take the ones with 
portholes and show stars or a planet from low orbit or something outside.

--Laning

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3cadc22c.4909163@post.demon.co.uk>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:

>The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed civilians.  It has little =
or
>no military application, contrary to popular mythos.

... I wouldn't go that far...  Firstly, bayonets were primarily a
_defensive_ weapon:  they stopped infantry being overrun and trampled
by cavalry.  ("Form square!")

Secondly, they *could* be the means by which infantry could turn an
indecisive firefight into a crushing rout of the enemy.
Unfortunately, bayonet charges like this only really worked if the
enemy was already weak and disorganised.  Against untrained native
levies in colonial warfare, bayonets were far more effective than
muskets.  They used less ammunition, too...  Unfortunately, that
tended to give those armies involved in colonial warfare an
over-inflated view of the benefits of the bayonet, which would be
disastrous once they faced the firepower of Western armies on a modern
battlefield.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 07:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr  5 07:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <20020405134530.5456.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <B8D22FB6.37529%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405074625.009ee8d0@mindspring.com>

At 05:45 AM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:

>Although my Dante is rusty and my personal sentiments
>don't agree...
>
>"Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."

That's Milton, from "Paradise Lost."

Dante's best line came from The Inferno... the inscription on the gates of 
Hell.

"I AM THE WAY INTO THE CITY OF WOE
I AM THE WAY TO A FORSAKEN PEOPLE
I AM THE WAY INTO ETERNAL SORROW

SACRED JUSTICE MOVED MY ARCHITECT
I WAS RAISED THERE BY DIVINE OMNIPOTENCE
PRIMORDIAL LOVE AND ULTIMATE INTELLECT.

ONLY THOSE ELEMENTS TIME CANNOT WEAR
WERE MADE BEFORE ME, AND BEYOND TIME I STAND.
ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."

I want that on the door to my gaming room.. :)

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <F120FrbDLuPOuIGGsMq000028cf@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405160321.61448.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>      Another pop culture reference for such a device
> cn be found in 
> Harrison's "Deathworld" trilogy.  The Pyrrhans(sp)
> are outfitted with a 
> contraption that slams a very large, hair-triggered,
> pistol into their fists 
> at the slightest twitch.  The hero, Jason din Alt
> mentions how learning to 
> use the damn thing nearly breaks his hand.

My favorite of this type is from the Alan Cole/Chris
Bunch _Sten_ series.  (Admittedly light scifi and
light reading, but as a diversion, I enjoyed it.) 

In any case, the protagonist, Sten, has a sheath
biologically implanted in his forearm.  The weapon is
grown crystals and form fitted to his hand.  The blade
tapers to molecular thickness.  A simple twitch and
the blade slides into his palm ready for use.

(Yes, I can hear the suspenders snapping/shattering,
but I did warn you that it was light scifi)

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405074625.009ee8d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020405161906.71131.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> That's Milton, from "Paradise Lost."

Thanks for the editing.  My classics are a bit rusty. 
That's what too much reading of Dr. Seuss does.


> Dante's best line came from The Inferno... the
...snippit...
> ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."
> 
> I want that on the door to my gaming room.. :)

When I play a Chief Engineer, I want it on the door to
engineering.  No need to lock it up, the passengers
will stay away without any security keeping them out. 
(Unless the passengers are Player Characters, then
Satan himself couldn't keep them from trying.)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051636.DKL02665@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

There was a Harry Harrison series of novels that also had an 
arm rig that figured prominently in the storyline.

IMHO, it looks bulky, uncomfortable, and likely to blow your 
fingers off. That, and the weapon that pops out is unlikely 
to do more than draw return fire (or put bullet holes in your 
computer at an inopportune moment). You've got maybe two 
shots, and the weapon is likely to be something weak.

If you're allowed to carry concealed, carry a regular 
pistol.  After all, even if the 9mm doesn't impress him with 
the first shot, I'm sure the remaining rounds in the magazine 
will.

That, and carry a second pistol somewhere else on the body 
for a NYPD "speedload".

ObTrav:  The easiest holdout to design would be a laser.  You 
could isolate the powerpack and electronics at some other 
location under the clothing, run a fiber optic cable to the 
hand area, contrive a trigger (ring pull?), and have the exit 
optics somewhere over the back of the hand.  If you made a 
fist, and curled the fist inward, the ring would pull the 
trigger and the beam would fire over the back of the hand.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204051641.DKL03427@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>Define 'successfully'.  How many casualties were produced by 
>bayonets?

If I win, I win. Casualties or not.

I will admit that a bayonet is a dangerous thing to have 
around.  The first casualty I saw in the Gulf War to arrive 
at the forward aid station during the ground war was a 
bayonet casualty.  A Bradley gunner was wearing his LBE open, 
and the bayonet fell out and stuck, blade up, in the back of 
his seat.  At some point, he ducked down and slammed the 
hatch overhead.  Suddenly, he noticed something cold, hard, 
and far too long up his backside.  So he stood up, and opened 
the hatch, and let the whole world know it.

I told him that he'll never be able to tell his kids about 
the war.  He spent the next two weeks lying on his face, 
while the nurses changed the packing several times a day 
without painkillers.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 08:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 08:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051643.DKL03760@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug brings up Dante
<snip>

Oh, I think that Marlowe's Mephistopheles was better:

Hell hath no limits
Nor is circumscribed in one self space
For where we are is Hell,
and where Hell is, there we shall ever be



________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 09:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (KevinC)
Date: Fri Apr  5 09:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
References: <20020405003205.D8ED7279FF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> I am trying to converts old TML archives into a format that the new Mailman
> archiver can use.  Here the problem.  When the messages were originally
> saved, they were saved as digests with most of the header stripped of each
> message.

Tod,

Will the new TML archive be accessible by web search engines and
bots/spiders?

If yes, then you need to do something to protect the email addresses of
anyone whose posts are in the archive.

Otherwise "harvesters" will grab them all, and spam the good ( still
active) ones.

-- 
KevinC               Pentapod's World of 2300AD
kevinc@cnetech.com   http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2303/
                     http://go.to/PentapodsWorld


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 09:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 09:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051636.DKL02665@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEMIDJAA.tml@downport.com>

A .45 Colt Derringer is two shots at point blank. By the time you pull your
Beretta out of your shoulder holster, kung foo kitty has already broken your
neck at that range. Also good in a knife fight, or after you have emptied or
lost your Colt .45

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

IMHO, it looks bulky, uncomfortable, and likely to blow your
fingers off. That, and the weapon that pops out is unlikely
to do more than draw return fire (or put bullet holes in your
computer at an inopportune moment). You've got maybe two
shots, and the weapon is likely to be something weak.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 09:27:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 09:27:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <20020405.092414.-73051.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

> --- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> > "ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."
> > 

Back in 1986 I added the above quote to our office computer system when I
was its oporator. I ran closing, mid and end of month stuff. Well, the
quote freaked out the Buyer, Accounts receivables, and a couple early
imput girls who didn't want to log on the next morning. Fortunately for
me I came in before the boss.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051758.DKN05522@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>
>A .45 Colt Derringer is two shots at point blank.

Have you seen how much a .45 Colt derringer weighs?  It's a 
steel brick.  Much better just to whack someone in the face 
with it in your fist.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:02:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:02:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051801.DKN05830@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>Well, the quote freaked out the Buyer, Accounts receivables, 
>and a couple early imput girls who didn't want to log on the 
>next morning. Fortunately for me I came in before the boss.
>

I've gotten called on the carpet for more than one e-mail sig 
that people "don't get".  Some of them were completely 
unoffensive, as far as I was concerned.

Sometimes there's a lot to be gained if none of your co-
workers know what your hobbies or prior careers were.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
References: <200204051758.DKN05522@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CADEAEB.10501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Have you seen how much a .45 Colt derringer weighs?  It's a 
> steel brick.  Much better just to whack someone in the face 
> with it in your fist.

Deal! I'll let Swordy whack me in the face with it and shoot you. Betcha 
I get up first ;-)

And they're not all that heavy...I thwacked myself on the head with my 
father-in laws' 357 Derringer once, digging in the closet for some 
shoes. A .45 isn't going to weigh a lot more than a .357 one.

(he had it in a coat pocket of one of his suits. Bruce digging in closet 
"Ah! There they are <KLONK> What the...!!!" <dig dig> "Jeez what's doing 
with a pocket cannon like that!??")

Seriously, (so to speak) DiNiro makes a rig like this in Taxi Driver out 
of a drawer slide and duct tape.

(if the women don't find ya handsome...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk> <001001c1dc2b$d13fac40$a6ecff3e@k5k9u6>
Message-ID: <3CADEB80.1080907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

nellkyn wrote:

> 
> Please stop it and make it go away! I've just suffered a BSI surveillance
> visit today. Traveller is where I get away from the real world.
> 
> Obtrav
> Would there be a standards institute in the 3I?
> Would ISO 9000 appeal to the Vilani sense bureaucracy?


One sentence that engenders fear and panic in every starship owner's 
heart: 'Bwap compliance inspector.'

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <3CADEAEB.10501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEMJDJAA.tml@downport.com>

The classic version weighs about the same as an empty coffee mug (15 oz). I
carry a mug with varying amounts of coffee in it all day long, to I'm
already in shape ;)

I suppose a light-weight could opt for a .44 at half the heft (7.5 oz) and
still be able to best a knife wielding punk.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Johnson

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Have you seen how much a .45 Colt derringer weighs?  It's a
> steel brick.  Much better just to whack someone in the face
> with it in your fist.

Deal! I'll let Swordy whack me in the face with it and shoot you. Betcha
I get up first ;-)

And they're not all that heavy...I thwacked myself on the head with my
father-in laws' 357 Derringer once, digging in the closet for some
shoes. A .45 isn't going to weigh a lot more than a .357 one.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: more on the sop plus...movie review for gamers!
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3611@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405134053.00ab8e50@pop.wizard.net>

At 07:24 AM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Just to set things straight, it was John Groth that recommended the
>Brittania site [tips Diet Pepsit to John <'cause it's too early for beer ;)
> >]
>Jesse

I stand corrected.  John, thank you very much.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:52:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:52:29 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 9:22 AM, KevinC at kevinc@cnetech.com wrote:
> Tod,
> 
> Will the new TML archive be accessible by web search engines and
> bots/spiders?
> 
> If yes, then you need to do something to protect the email addresses of
> anyone whose posts are in the archive.
> 
> Otherwise "harvesters" will grab them all, and spam the good ( still
> active) ones.

I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 10:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 10:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>
>The classic version weighs about the same as an empty coffee 
>mug (15 oz).

Yes, and it's about half the weight of a Glock.  Half.

That, and unless we're right across the table, it's not as 
easy to hit something as one might think.  If we're as far 
apart as 15 feet, the average shooter is going to miss the 
majority of their shots at that distance (hopefully, Mr. Cook 
has given you some learned lessons).  You get two tries at 
what traditionally is 25% hits, and I get how many?

If you miss, well, I get to keep shooting.

If you're much closer than that, and I see you start the 
draw, it's a short distance to close and hold your arm down 
while I knee you in the groin.

I think that derringers were meant for shooting under the 
table without warning, or for shooting people in the back 
without warning.  The ones I've tried (American Derringer) 
had a tendency to turn in the hand between shots, and take 
time to orient correctly in the hand from the draw (perhaps 
why you'll need the sleeve gadget).

You could, of course, skip the derringer altogether and get a 
true "sleeve gun", which I'm sure Tod will have a legal 
comment on.  

ObTrav: there isn't much "law level" commentary on concealed 
weaponry. Does anyone have house rules on this?

I am less likely to find a derringer on your person with a 
hand search, especially if I'm careless.

I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed 
(in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so 
legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through 
their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears 
off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police 
detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out 
of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a 
no no to begin with).  


________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:07:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:07:29 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:51:56AM -0800
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com> <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405120614.B19040@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:51:56AM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

I would think the GNU Mailman would do this for you...

# $email = &obfuscate_email($email)
#        or
# @emails = &obfuscate_email(@emails)

sub obfuscate_email
{
  my @email = @_;
  my $email;

  foreach $email (@email)
  {
    $email =~ s/@/ at /g;
    $email =~ s/\./ dot /g;
  }
  if ($#email)
  {
    return @email;
  } else {
    return $email[0];
  }
}

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only kind of freedom that the mob can imagine is freedom to annoy
and oppress its betters, and that is precisely the kind that we mainly
have.                                                   --H.L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:09:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:09:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:21:18AM -0500
References: <200204050105.DJF06187@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020405120835.C19040@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:21:18AM -0500, laning wrote:
>
> Any of you guys know Ruby?

I'm afraid it doesn't do a whole lot for me.  I like perl, python,
scheme and C.  I'm sure I would like Common Lisp.  SmallTalk never did
a lot for me, and for awhile I thought C++ was cool--but I no longer
do.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There isn't a single useful thing that we in the CS community can come
up with that some @&%! marketer can't abuse.                 --devphil

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <20020405120614.B19040@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B8D3378F.376BE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 11:06 AM, Robert A. Uhl at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:51:56AM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>> 
>> I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.
> 
> I would think the GNU Mailman would do this for you...
> 
> # $email = &obfuscate_email($email)
> #        or

I haven't looked at the old archives to see how email is buried in there.
In the new lists, all email addresses point to the list address, and any
spammer who want to post to that will have to subscribe to the list.  Then
they'll get all the tml email -- counter spam!
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:15:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:15:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051914.DKP06560@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>SmallTalk never did a lot for me

You must like strong typing.  I learned to love programming 
again.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mole)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3378F.376BE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8D33890.5666%mole@solsec.org>

on 4/5/02 11:14 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> I haven't looked at the old archives to see how email is buried in there.
> In the new lists, all email addresses point to the list address, and any
> spammer who want to post to that will have to subscribe to the list.  Then
> they'll get all the tml email -- counter spam!
> --

"I see your spam and raise you several hundred counter spams"

-- 
Mole


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405031925.02b78850@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204051057330.14455-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, laning wrote:
> Any of you guys know Ruby?
> http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/index.html

I've been looking at it; it looks pretty nice.  Most criticisms I've seen
about it tend to point to Python as a better language, though.  As a
result, I'm learning them both at pretty much the same time.  Hard to make
an informed choice without knowing both, after all.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204051914.DKP06560@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:14:24PM -0500
References: <200204051914.DKP06560@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405123244.A19291@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:14:24PM -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> >SmallTalk never did a lot for me
> 
> You must like strong typing.  I learned to love programming 
> again.

I rather think you must mean _static_ typing.  Strong typing means
that expression are guaranteed to be type-safe (either at compile or
run time).  This is the case in nearly every language _but_ C, C++ and
assembler.  Weak typing means, for example, that you can try to add 14
to a string.  The results are generally unexpected.

Static typing means that a variable's type is checked once, at compile
time, and that it never changes.  This is the case in C.  Dynamic
typing is common in most other languages, including Python, SmallTalk
and Scheme.

I like dynamic strong typing.  Weak typing is too error-prone for my
tastes.  Hence I like Scheme a lot.  E.g.:

(define x 3)
(set! x "I am a happy string")
(set! x (lambda (y) (+ (sqrt y) (expt y 2))))

Are all legal.  However, strong typing means that:

(define x "This is a string")
(* x 7)

Is illegal, because * does not handle strings.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
RFC 882 put the dot in .com.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
References: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CADFCD0.6000801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Mark Urbin writes:
> 
>>The Armored Vacc Suited trooper wielding a "Space Ax" has a staple of SF 
>>since Edward E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series.
> 
> 
> Actually, I'm not sure I can think of a reference _since_ Lensman, though there
> certainly was one in Lensman.  In any case, it hasn't been a 'staple' exactly.

"Space Viking" H. Beam Piper

"The Forever War" mentions something like this, IIRC, but it's been a 
*long* time since I read it.

Many of the Flandry series, by Poul Anderson mention troopers using 
melee arms. I specifically remember one passage about a big trooper in 
battle dress wielding a 'collapsium-plated battle axe'.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204051937.DKR02226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I can add 14 to a String in Smalltalk -- it's just that I'll 
get the message

"String does not understand +"

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:38:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:38:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 10:57 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> Yes, and it's about half the weight of a Glock.  Half.
> 
> That, and unless we're right across the table, it's not as
> easy to hit something as one might think.  If we're as far
> apart as 15 feet, the average shooter is going to miss the
> majority of their shots at that distance (hopefully, Mr. Cook
> has given you some learned lessons).  You get two tries at
> what traditionally is 25% hits, and I get how many?

As a note, it should be mentioned that a derringer's intrinsic accuracy is
the same as for any short barreled pistol.  It's the form factor that is the
problem.  If you put a derringer or any other short barrel handgun in a
Ransom rest, they can shoot remarkably well.

Personally, I think they are pretty useless except as a totalaly last
result.
> 
> I think that derringers were meant for shooting under the
> table without warning, or for shooting people in the back
> without warning.  The ones I've tried (American Derringer)
> had a tendency to turn in the hand between shots, and take
> time to orient correctly in the hand from the draw (perhaps
> why you'll need the sleeve gadget).

Assuming the sleeve gadget works.
> 
> You could, of course, skip the derringer altogether and get a
> true "sleeve gun", which I'm sure Tod will have a legal
> comment on. 

'Disguised' guns are a tricky proposition when dealing with ATF.  For
example, someone developed a holster that holds a derringer, and the
derringer can be fired from within the wallet shaped holster.

"Here's my wallet, sir, Just don't hurt me.  BLAM!  BLAM!"

ATF says that such a wallet and gun constitutes a disguised firearm and must
be registered (I believe and an AOW -- Any Other Weapon $5 transfer tax).
Gun guns, pen guns and other such weapons classify as AOWs.
> 
> ObTrav: there isn't much "law level" commentary on concealed
> weaponry. Does anyone have house rules on this?

Coming right up
> I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
> (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
> legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
> their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
> off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
> detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
> of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
> no no to begin with).

Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.
> 
> 
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <3cadc22c.4909163@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B8D33EA8.376DB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 7:42 AM, Stephen Tempest at tml@stempest.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
>> The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed civilians.  It has little or
>> no military application, contrary to popular mythos.
> 
> ... I wouldn't go that far...  Firstly, bayonets were primarily a
> _defensive_ weapon:  they stopped infantry being overrun and trampled
> by cavalry.  ("Form square!")

But what about Elan!

They were supposedly very offensive as well.  In an infantry charge with
musket you could get off one round and then it was 'in with the bayonet'.

The problem is that neither side really like the bayonet.  We it comes right
down to it, the attackers rarely actually thrust into their opponents. Look
at the reports of the number of actual bayonet wounds in the Napoleonic
wars, or even the American civil war.  The other side usually runs before it
gets to that, or the attackers stop short.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:47:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:47:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEMMDJAA.tml@downport.com>

Sorry to get you going on this stuff. I've been comparing a derringer to a
knife or a fist. 15 feet is as good as a mile with a derringer (at least for
me). This is more of the Body Pistol argument. It is not a serious weapon,
it is bit of muscle when you don't have a serious weapon. It is a bang when
they expect a punch. Not having any aiming abilities*, I'd never try to
shoot further than a yard.

*Forex: on Thanksgiving I was treated to about 50 shots from a small 9mm
handgun. My target was a swinging 2 liter bottle of water at about 10-12
yards. It was still full of water when I got done. Give me a snowball,
though, and things are different ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

"Swordy" says
>
>The classic version weighs about the same as an empty coffee
>mug (15 oz).

Yes, and it's about half the weight of a Glock.  Half.

That, and unless we're right across the table, it's not as
easy to hit something as one might think.  If we're as far
apart as 15 feet, the average shooter is going to miss the
majority of their shots at that distance (hopefully, Mr. Cook
has given you some learned lessons).  You get two tries at
what traditionally is 25% hits, and I get how many?

If you miss, well, I get to keep shooting.

If you're much closer than that, and I see you start the
draw, it's a short distance to close and hold your arm down
while I knee you in the groin.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <3CADEB80.1080907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <memo.258006@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <001001c1dc2b$d13fac40$a6ecff3e@k5k9u6>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405145001.00a7b1d8@urbin.net>

At 11:22 AM 4/5/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>nellkyn wrote:
>>Please stop it and make it go away! I've just suffered a BSI surveillance
>>visit today. Traveller is where I get away from the real world.
>>Obtrav
>>Would there be a standards institute in the 3I?
>>Would ISO 9000 appeal to the Vilani sense bureaucracy?
>One sentence that engenders fear and panic in every starship owner's 
>heart: 'Bwap compliance inspector.'

That's a keeper!  Bruce, would you mind joining Doug in my RPG sig quote file?



>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"It is both foolish and wicked to teach the average man who is
not well off that some wrong or injustice has been done him,
and that he should hope for redress elsewhere than in his own
industry, honesty, and intelligence." -- Theodore Roosevelt,
"Review of Reviews", January 1897
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 11:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>
>Sorry to get you going on this stuff. I've been comparing a 
>derringer to a knife or a fist.

I hope never to be that close to someone when something bad 
happens (then again, consider my luck).

We used to do fighting with rubber knives and chalk, with 
black t-shirts.  From about three paces, I never failed to 
mark someone from the gut to the collar before they could 
clear leather.  That was someone who knew what the exercise 
entailed, and I am by no means a martial artist, or an expert 
with a knife.

Bad things happen really fast. 
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod says:

>I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

Thank you for that.  :->

Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
usenet newsgroups.

Just a thought.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204051937.DKR02226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:37:55PM -0500
References: <200204051937.DKR02226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405130711.B19291@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:37:55PM -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
> I can add 14 to a String in Smalltalk -- it's just that I'll 
> get the message
> 
> "String does not understand +"

(define x "A string")
(+ 14 x)

In guile:
  standard input:51:1: In procedure + in expression (+ 14 x):
  standard input:51:1: Wrong type argument: "A string"
  ABORT: (wrong-type-arg)

  Type "(backtrace)" to get more information.

In umb-scheme:
  Error: Bad argument type to primitive in: (+ 14 x)

In other words, the same thing as in SmallTalk.  Both Scheme and
SmallTalk have strong dynamic typing.  C, OTOH, has weak static
typing.  The C fragment:

char* string = "fellow";
string--;
string = "fool";

Is completely legal, and completely wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Bother,' said Pooh, `Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock
phasers on the Heffalump; Piglet, meet me in transporter room three.'
                                                    --Robert Billing

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:08:38PM -0500
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com> <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020405130926.C19291@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:08:38PM -0500, laning wrote:
> 
> Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
> site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
> then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
> for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
> usenet newsgroups.

I hate that--Yahoo does it.  It means that information is hidden from
all but members, and what had been a public resource is hidden behind
a wall.  Given that there are other, better ways to prevent address
harvesting, I cannot support such a move.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A lady came up to me on the street and pointed at my suede jacket.  `You
know a cow was murdered for that jacket?' she sneered. 
I replied in a psychotic tone, `I didn't know there were any witnesses.
Now I'll have to kill you too.'                        --Jake Johansen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051207400.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, laning wrote:

> Tod says:
> 
> >I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.
> 
> Thank you for that.  :->
> 
> Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
> site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
> then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
> for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
> usenet newsgroups.
> 
That'd be great, as long as my password could be changed by me to
something I wouldn't forget.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <20020405130926.C19291@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051217390.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:08:38PM -0500, laning wrote:
> > 
> > Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the 
> > site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address 
> > then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy 
> > for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than 
> > usenet newsgroups.
> 
> I hate that--Yahoo does it.  It means that information is hidden from
> all but members, and what had been a public resource is hidden behind
> a wall.  Given that there are other, better ways to prevent address
> harvesting, I cannot support such a move.

Have you ever been tracked down from a public resource?

I have.  

If they want to read our posts they can always sign up.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 11:52 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> We used to do fighting with rubber knives and chalk, with
> black t-shirts.  From about three paces, I never failed to
> mark someone from the gut to the collar before they could
> clear leather.  That was someone who knew what the exercise
> entailed, and I am by no means a martial artist, or an expert
> with a knife.

I'd just like to point out that there is a big difference between practicing
with knives in the dojo and actually using one one someone.  Knife fighting
is a brutal and intimate form of combat.  A single knife thrust or slash is
rarely incapacitating or even debilitating.  To actually stop an attacker
with a knife, you need to be prepared to use it multiple times.  There will
be blood, and possibly screaming.  You will be right in your opponents face.
An he will probably not be cooperating.

The human body is also much better defended against a knife than a firearm.
There are lots of bones to get in the way:  ribs, arms and leg bones, etc.
As an experiment, try thrusting and/or slashing an animal carcass.  Better
if it's hanging on a cord so it's free to swing and twist.  it's a lot
harder than it seems.

Also, most knives are not really up to the challenge of combat.  They are
rarely sharp enough or strong enough to be really effective.  It's hard to
slash through clothing and then deep into meat.  It's hard to thrust between
ribs and not break a point or have the knife twist out of you hand,
especially if there's a lot of blood on everything (including you).

Working in a hospital, I saw a lot of people wounded by knives walk into the
emergency room under their own power.  A few people wounded by handguns did
the same.  I never saw anyone who had been shot by a rifle in a major body
part walk in, they were wheeled in.

I like knives.  I was a professional custom knife maker for several years.
My preference was for 'fighting' knives.  But if I had to pick a weapon, a
knife would be way down my list (after guns, baseball bat, etc.)

A knife is really best as an offensive weapon, provided you are ruthless
enough to use it.  It excels in the surprise silent kill on an unsuspecting
opponents, preferably attacked from behind.  But only if you don't have
something better.

A friend, who worked with Pheonix project while in the service in the 1960s
related to me the story of his one knife encounter (after many beers).  This
person is a large, powerful and rather competent former member Special
Forces.  Attempting to kidnap a local individual for interrogation by his
CIA masters, things got out of hand.  He attempted to use a Randall number 1
(a particularly well regarded combat knife) to end the conflict.  His
opponent was all of 5'5" and of slight build.

Ken reported that he stabbed the individual at least a dozen times.  Blood
was everywhere and the target was screaming like a banshee and fighting like
a tiger.  They lost their grip on the bloody man, who promptly ran off.  He
was captured several days later.

Makes one think.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:33:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:33:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051217390.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:19:15PM -0800
References: <20020405130926.C19291@4dv.net> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051217390.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020405133255.A19481@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:19:15PM -0800, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> Have you ever been tracked down from a public resource?

Yeah--but 'twas a good thing in my case.  And, indeed, it doesn't
bother me--the same can be done with Google and a few minutes in the
white pages, generally.

The development of the Internet into a group of walled-and-gated
communities is not, IMHO, a good thing.

I _really_ hate being forced to choose between registering (and having
who-knows-what happen to my data) and not accessing what is
essentially public information.  After all, anyone can sign up and
archive the list anyway.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Umm...  Excuse me.  I think the network's down?'
`A communications disruption can only mean one thing...invasion.'
          --Lee Maguire, teaching us how to make people go away

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
Message-ID: <200204052034.DKT01667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

So it's a matter of "do you enforce typing" and "when do you 
enforce it".

I like mine done, but only at the last minute.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:35:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:35:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D34A21.37700%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 12:08 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Hm I wonder if maybe you'd prefer to password that portion of the
> site?  Force people to create a username consisting of their email address
> then email their password to them.  It seems to be an effective strategy
> for the Web-based message boards that are more commonly used now than
> usenet newsgroups.

And would the users bitch.  oh yes.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:32:47PM -0800
References: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020405133914.A19510@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:32:47PM -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> A knife is really best as an offensive weapon, provided you are ruthless
> enough to use it.  It excels in the surprise silent kill on an unsuspecting
> opponents, preferably attacked from behind.

http://armor.com/2000/catalog/item723.html

Although the picture is not nearly as nice as in the previous edition.
It's actually a beautiful glittering foot-long weapon ideal for that
sort of work.  Not something that has any use in a knife-fight.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
           --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <200204052034.DKT01667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:34:14PM -0500
References: <200204052034.DKT01667@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020405134034.B19510@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:34:14PM -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
> So it's a matter of "do you enforce typing" and "when do you 
> enforce it".
> 
> I like mine done, but only at the last minute.

Which is what SmallTalk and Scheme both do.

Now, there are advantages to SmallTalk.  To tell te truth, I just
never cared over-much for its syntax or standard library.  It didn't
do a whole lot for me.  But everyone's different.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Cape Cod Salsa--somehow that's just not right.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:51:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:51:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <3CADFCD0.6000801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <ML-2.3.1017961016.2754.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405151454.02882b30@pop.wizard.net>

Bruce Johnson:

>Many of the Flandry series, by Poul Anderson mention troopers using melee 
>arms. I specifically remember one passage about a big trooper in battle 
>dress wielding a 'collapsium-plated battle axe'.

Collapsium, eh?  Plated, you say"  Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Beware those lesser-quality battle axes sold by others.  'Collapsium 
plating' can never substitute for the reliable, never-needs-sharpening, 
100%-pure Unobtainium (tm) battle axe sold only by special and exclusive 
arrangement with the only certified maker of battle axes that His Imperial 
Majesty's Marine Corps buys from.

(Video of two people in different colored battle dress facing each 
other.  The one in green battle dress just stands there, arms folded, while 
the one in black battle dress is hacking away uselessly at his chest with a 
battle axe.  You can see pieces of the axe's plating flaking off and 
spinning in every direction each time it strikes the armored chest.)

Voiceover:  "Has this ever happened to you?"

Voiceover:  "Don't wind up like this poor guy who bought from cheap imitators!"

(Video cuts to the person in black battle dress, now laying stretched out 
and unmoving on his back, arms collapsed on the ground as if they had been 
held up defensively before collapsing.  The green battle dress is standing, 
facing camera, arms folded again, one foot on the torso of his vanquished 
enemy.  A camouflage-handled battle axe is sunk into the neck of the purple 
battle dress, all the way to the haft.)

Voiceover:  "This sad story has been repeated all too often by 
others.  Don't be embarrassed like them!  Get the only genuine, solid 100% 
Unobtainium battle axe sold in the Marches today and enjoy the pleasure and 
satisfaction of winning all your melees from now on!"

(Video of man in black battle dress.  Helmet is swung back on its hinges so 
we can see the wearer's head.  A good-looking professional model with a 
cr150 haircut and perfect teeth, smiling and basking in the congratulations 
and envious looks from his squadmates who are crowded around him.)

Squadmate 1:  "Wow, Sergeant, I've always heard how great pure Unobtainium 
battle axes are, and now I know someone who _has_ one!"

Squadmate 2:  "Sergeant Jones, you _always_ seem to have the best gear.  No 
wonder you always get the girls when we're on leave."

Squadmate 3 (glumly):  "Well I guess it isn't _me_ who will be killing the 
most enemy in close combat anymore."

(Very tall, distinguished looking man in black battle dress walks up from 
Jones' side, helmet also completely open.  He has a colonel's insignia on 
his chest.)

Colonel:  "Well, Sergeant Jones, I can see _why_ you were just recommended 
for meritorious promotion.  You're the only one here savvy enough to have 
bought a genuine, pure 100% Unobtainium battle axe."

(Colonel pulls his Unobtainium axe from his side.  Close up as he holds it 
in front of his face to admire and proudly display it.)

Colonel:  "It reminds me of the same 100% Unobtainium battle axe I got just 
before I was commissioned 25 years ago and _still_ with me today.  It has 
never let me down."

(Colonel turns to Jones again and puts his free hand on Jones' shoulder 
with a smile.)

Colonel:  "Son, it looks like it will be smooth sailing for you."

(Cut to graphic of axe, captioned with 'The ONLY exclusive pure 100% 
Unobtainium (tm) battle axe!'  Net, comm, and xboat sales information 
listed below that for the market the ad is running in.)

Voiceover:  "Isn't it about time _you_ make the right choice and get the 
only pure 100% Unobtainium battle axe in the Marches?"

(Graphic remains as a translucent overlay.  Behind it we see Jones in full, 
black battle dress, helmet sealed laying waste to one green-suited foe 
after another as they run up to him attacking wildly but he easily 
penetrates each one's armor in one try and they throw their arms up and 
collapse in death.)

(Graphic overlay remains, video cuts to closeup of someone in green battle 
dress, helmet open.  He looks terrified.  He addresses the camera as it 
slowly zooms to close up.)

Terrified Trooper:  "That guy must have an _Unobtainium_ battle axe."

Terrified Trooper (resigned and glum):  "I sure wish _I_ had one of those 
but it's too late, now."

(Camera pulls back to show Terrified Trooper charging Jones as the pile of 
bodies in front of Jones grows.)

--Laning
I almost wrote it up as Chinese forklift spam but for bonded superdense 
battle axes instead.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <20020405.125213.-122687.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:01:18 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
>
> 
> Sometimes there's a lot to be gained if none of your co-
> workers know what your hobbies or prior careers were.

Oh, I like this...

How about a character doing the same?
Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her past, and late in
a game spring it on your group.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:53:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:53:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
Message-ID: <200204052051.DKT03530@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>I never saw anyone who had been shot by a rifle in a major 
>body part walk in, they were wheeled in.
>
Which brings me around full circle.  I remember being told by 
an older NCO not to carry a fighting knife, as he had killed 
numerous men at close enough range to see their last meal on 
their teeth.  But he always used a RIFLE.  From a few feet 
away (CAR-15 on full auto, as he told it).

This man had been in Vietnam, had his lower jaw shot off, and 
walked three days without medical care to be retrieved.  He 
was put out of the service for some time, but after getting 
bone implants was allowed to reenlist in the Army. We were 
all afraid of him (1SGT Lydick).

He said he never, ever killed anyone with a knife OR a 
pistol.  Always the rifle.

Haven't killed anyone, but I've killed a lot of deer. Made 
the mistake "once" of trying to use a .44 Mag on a 180 pound 
whitetail (a bit heavy, yes) near Savannah, GA.  Two hits, 
from 35 yards away, one through the left side into the lungs 
and out the other side, one as he turned (into the diaphragm 
forward and out through the front).  I had to follow him for 
two miles. (240gr Sierra JHP, 24 grains IMR 4227, your 
mileage may differ).

Not one deer that I've shot "once" with a .308 (180 grain 
Nosler Ballistic Tip) has taken more than two steps before 
falling.  And that was up to 150 yards away (no, I don't make 
long range shots on deer).

The .308 is not a "powerhouse" round, but it is a real rifle 
round.

ObTrav: Question about penetration and damage.  There 
is "proof" now that the green tip will penetrate most body 
armor at urban combat ranges BUT, if it hits an unarmored 
person, it is less likely to overpenetrate than standard 9mm 
ball at the same distance.  How does that work?  One would 
think that penetration is penetration, and if it goes through 
a vest, then you aren't even standing there.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
Message-ID: <200204052054.DKT03893@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning writes
<snip nice commercial for unobtainum battle axe>

Might need a handle made of handwavium.  That way, you can 
kill people and do your handwaves in one stroke.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 12:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 12:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204052058.DKT04431@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  writes
>Oh, I like this...
>
>How about a character doing the same?
>Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her 
>past, and late in a game spring it on your group.
>

I've mostly rolled my characters in private, and I've never 
really shown my sheet to others.

How many of you saw Ronin?  That was a nice part where DeNiro 
asks, "What color was the roof of the boathouse?".  I didn't 
really like the movie too much (seemed aimless), but it was 
Traveller-esque.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several 
places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and 
they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone 
in the place.

Fear and loathing ensues.  At one place, when my first wife 
left, there was a meeting held "about John" without my 
knowledge, to address "a potential problem".  Nothing ever 
happened, and I've never been one to make threats or act out.

When I retired "the rifle" to the local SWAT team (they 
thought it was Christmas), there was much rejoicing at work.

I went out and bought another one.  But it's not like the 
place I work for now really needs to know that.  You really 
are treated as a second-class citizen, just for owning a 
firearm.

I don't know how Tod does it, or Mark, or some of the other 
NFA holders.  People would jump out of their skins here if I 
told them I was going to buy an NFA weapon.

ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because 
people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.



________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <B8D33EA8.376DB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3cadc22c.4909163@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405155359.028b0110@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn points out:
>The problem is that neither side really like the bayonet.  We it comes right
>down to it, the attackers rarely actually thrust into their opponents. Look
>at the reports of the number of actual bayonet wounds in the Napoleonic
>wars, or even the American civil war.  The other side usually runs before it
>gets to that, or the attackers stop short.

Yeah.  If _everyone_ in those mass formations that charged each other 
actually fought when they were in contact with the enemy, casualty lists 
for battles in those eras would have been even more tragic.  And the 
battles would have been a heck of a lot shorter.

It definitely did happen in some units, some times.  But my vision of most 
of those clashes is that most of the infantrymen were busy trying to keep 
anything from stabbing them or shooting them.  More concerned with staying 
out of harm's way than inflicting harm.  Which completely matches human 
nature.  This vision is one of the few ways I can reconcile the statistics 
we have for battles in those times.  How can so many men who are fighting 
each other with nasty weapons be in such close proximity for so long and 
not have most of them mortally wounded or dead?  The fact that there are 
many instances of units actually being slaughtered in close contact only 
serves to make the more usual case stand out more starkly.

Which is a good thing, because I generally have tears pouring silently down 
my face whenever visiting ACW battlefields (I live in Northern Virginia, so 
I've been to a lot of them) or the time I went to Waterloo.  Even more 
death would just make it worse.  So much bravery, so many lives, people 
trying to just survive or people willing to kill and die for their 
beliefs,  the right and the wrong, all wasted.  Funny how so much wasted 
life and folly can make you proud to be in the same human race as them.

Since opposed planetary assaults are usually last on the list of the 
military options in the 57th century, that probably means that most major 
'battlefields' are naval battles fought in space.  What parks and museums 
should we expect from them?

--Laning
"This story shall the good man teach his son,
  And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
  From this day to the ending of the world,
  But we in it shall be remembered..."
--'Henry V' by William Shakespeare


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon points out, then Tod Glenn remarks:
> > I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
> > (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
> > legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
> > their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
> > off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
> > detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
> > of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
> > no no to begin with).
>
>Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.

And (again) what would Freud say?  :->

I doubt most societies in the Imperium will be any different.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:23:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:23:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <198.4e08185.29df6f8d@aol.com>

--part1_198.4e08185.29df6f8d_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, 
anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
  -Ken Murphy-

--part1_198.4e08185.29df6f8d_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_198.4e08185.29df6f8d_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:26:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:26:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>
References: <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net>

At 04:25 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, laning wrote:
>John Kwon points out, then Tod Glenn remarks:
>> > I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
>> > (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
>> > legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
>> > their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
>> > off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
>> > detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
>> > of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
>> > no no to begin with).
>>Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.
>And (again) what would Freud say?  :->

Probably the same thing.  Fear of weapons is a sign of sexual disorder.



>I doubt most societies in the Imperium will be any different.

-------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"The self is not something that one finds. It is
something that one creates." - Thomas Szasz
-------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <198.4e08185.29df6f8d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162512.00a6d940@urbin.net>

Instead of splitting wood, it's designed to crack open combat armor.

Sharper, denser...not to be wielded by the He-Man Muscle Workout dropouts, 
or those without strength augmenting exoskeletons...

At 04:22 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:
>  And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, 
> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
>  -Ken Murphy-

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence.  Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <20020405133914.A19510@4dv.net>
References: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405163130.03930bc0@pop.wizard.net>

Bob Uhl quoteth thusly:
>"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
>[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
>            --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

"Guns don't kill people.  Bullets kill people."  -humorous bumper sticker


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>Yeah.  If _everyone_ in those mass formations that charged 
>each other actually fought when they were in contact with 
>the enemy, casualty lists for battles in those eras would 
>have been even more tragic.

Actually, combat was far deadlier in the age of sword, on a 
percentage basis (not counting that you probably would die of 
infection if merely wounded).

Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.  
Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally 
ensued.

We've talked about it before, but the Dupuy curve shows 
weapon lethality shooting through the ceiling while 
battlefield deaths keep going down.  We're scattering, 
running, etc.  And we're not willing to engage face to face, 
human against human (what is a Predator with Hellfire, 
anyway: a one-way killing machine).

But catch a few thousand men who, after running a few hundred 
yards in armor, are now too exhausted and demoralized to 
properly defend themselves, and....

I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the 
survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of 
war.  People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or 
they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.  
Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their 
army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full 
of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in 
their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything 
except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message 
across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you 
have to do.

ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their 
opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like 
we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?

I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to 
nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough 
missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their 
ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on 
the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay 
waste to an advanced industrial society?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D358F8.3771D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:06 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several
> places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and
> they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone
> in the place.

What can I say.  Oregon.
> 
> Fear and loathing ensues.  At one place, when my first wife
> left, there was a meeting held "about John" without my
> knowledge, to address "a potential problem".  Nothing ever
> happened, and I've never been one to make threats or act out.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <200204052051.DKT03530@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405163356.03932ae0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn, after relating the combat advice of a seriously hard-core First 
Sergeant, then says:
>ObTrav: Question about penetration and damage.  There
>is "proof" now that the green tip will penetrate most body
>armor at urban combat ranges BUT, if it hits an unarmored
>person, it is less likely to overpenetrate than standard 9mm
>ball at the same distance.  How does that work?  One would
>think that penetration is penetration, and if it goes through
>a vest, then you aren't even standing there.

I don't know what green tip exactly means.  Is it more likely to deform 
upon initial penetration?  That will help it to veer, tumble, and otherwise 
do a poor job of continuing straight out the other side.  If it means the 
so-called Teflon bullet, then I've no idea what's going on with 
that.  Slice one open lengthwise and see what you can see about the details 
of its sectional density.  Maybe that will be illuminating.  Or maybe they 
have lower muzzle velocity, but just enough to penetrate standard body 
armor at less than ten yards given their fancy jacketing.

IMTU, you can usually buy all kinds of fancyshmancy ammo and make your gun 
much more effective at the job the ammo is tailored to.  Something that 
Striker and following books got partly into.  But MTU goes way past the 
number of ammo choices that would make a Tractics die hard deliriously 
happy.  Like the man said,  Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018043091.7096.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the 
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of 
> war.
<snip> 
> It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message 
> across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you 
> have to do.

Historically, it didn't work very well.  Wars are not notably more (or less)
common today than in the past (this implies that nothing works very well).
> 
> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their 
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like 
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?

Mostly because MAD is alive and well in the Traveller Universe.  It's not as
easy as with the US and Soviets pointing 10,000 nuclear weapons at one another,
but a fullscale war could easily depopulate everything within a sector of the
spinward marches, on all sides.  It's very hard to prevent a jump-capable fleet
from laying waste to a world.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405164402.03931ec0@pop.wizard.net>

>I don't know how Tod does it, or Mark, or some of the other
>NFA holders.  People would jump out of their skins here if I
>told them I was going to buy an NFA weapon.
>
>ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because
>people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.

John, quit this world and this job and move to Tod's Traveller 
Universe.  You'd love working on the high port at Regina.  :->

You'd probably want to _marry_ Kelly, lol!

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:50:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:50:28 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMENBDJAA.tml@downport.com>

That was only one campaign in Joshua. They didn't do as they were told and
they continue the fight to this day.

Most times you see the winners killing the armies and enslaving/absorbing
the strong while leaving the weak to be plundered by lesser foes. Also very
effective.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

[snip]  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Knife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <200204052051.DKT03530@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D35CA4.3772F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 12:51 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> ObTrav: Question about penetration and damage.  There
> is "proof" now that the green tip will penetrate most body
> armor at urban combat ranges BUT, if it hits an unarmored
> person, it is less likely to overpenetrate than standard 9mm
> ball at the same distance.  How does that work?  One would
> think that penetration is penetration, and if it goes through
> a vest, then you aren't even standing there.


Au Contraire.  Penetration has to do with cross-sectional density, hardness
of the projectile and velocity.  A bullet with good penetration can become
very unstable when transiting media, particularly tissue.  I suspect that
the M855 green tip his weight distribution such that at a given rate of
twist, it starts to yaw severely when it transits into tissue.  IIRC, the
M855 is longer than the old M198 and Mach's equation shows that once the
bullet starts to tumble, projectile length is a dominant factor in bullet
retardation.  In the case of simple armor penetration, the armor material is
not think enough or pliant enough for yawing to be a factor.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405164402.03931ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D35D23.37730%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:51 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

>> ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because
>> people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.
> 
> John, quit this world and this job and move to Tod's Traveller
> Universe.  You'd love working on the high port at Regina.  :->
> 
> You'd probably want to _marry_ Kelly, lol!
> 

"An armed society is a polite society"- RAH

I always found it amusing to see Jeff Cooper quoting Heinlein.

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 13:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 13:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D34A21.37700%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405150620.028ddec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405165320.039342f0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod, almost presciently, points out:

>And would the users bitch.  oh yes.

Indeed.  I think it's already started.  :->

To all:  I'm glad I advanced the idea here, because we got to have the 
feedback on how unpopular it is before the idea had a chance to waste 
anyone's time further.  And because it's now _me_ you can suspect of being 
a closet totalitarian out to subvert your right to privacy instead of 
thinking our erstwhile Listmom had anything to do with it.

I'd be happy to live with that arrangement, but only because I think I've 
come to know the Listmom well enough to realize there is _no_ danger of 
Listmom doing anything even slightly like not respecting our privacy.  And 
it would only be necessary to go past the firewalling when you want to 
access the archives, which isn't often.  Basically, I'd just go there once, 
FTP all the archives, and have them around on my local hard drive for much 
more quick and convenient use forever afterwards.

But I would be most _unhappy_ with that arrangement if creating it caused a 
rift in the TML community.  Definitely not worth it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <20020405.135958.-122687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:22:21 EST MurfNMurf@aol.com writes:
>    And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin, 
> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
>   -Ken Murphy-

The handles made of Penguin bone!
The heads diamond grit plated!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <20020405.135958.-122687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <B8D35F30.3775F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:59 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
>> And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin,
>> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
>> -Ken Murphy-
> 
> The handles made of Penguin bone!
> The heads diamond grit plated!

Wouldn't penguin bone be kind of small.  How about oosik?  Then you get the
pleasure of explaining just where this unique handle material comes from.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>
 <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>

Mark Urbin:
>At 04:25 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, laning wrote:
>>John Kwon points out, then Tod Glenn remarks:
>>> > I've noticed, however, that most people who carry concealed
>>> > (in Virginia, where I work, there are a fair number who do so
>>> > legally) have a tendency to keep touching the weapon through
>>> > their clothes.  Sometimes it's comical.  I think that wears
>>> > off, but only after years of carry (like a veteran police
>>> > detective).  I see it happen most when people get in and out
>>> > of a vehicle, especially on and off the Metro (where it's a
>>> > no no to begin with).
>>>Cops are trained to look for this 'tell'.  It's very common.
>>And (again) what would Freud say?  :->
>
>Probably the same thing.  Fear of weapons is a sign of sexual disorder.

:->  LOL.

I was thinking more like "they like touching their surrogate a great 
deal".  I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival 
response.  Unreasoning and disproportionate fear, and especially 
incapacitating fear, is a different matter and Freud would probably say a 
sign of some disorder.

Anyway, the TML has seen more than enough virtual ink spilled on 
gun-control-related issues.  Let's not go there.  I only meant my Freud 
remark as very light humor.  Please excuse the distraction.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:06:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:06:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <B8D35D23.37730%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405164402.03931ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170735.03959740@pop.wizard.net>

>"An armed society is a polite society"- RAH
>
>I always found it amusing to see Jeff Cooper quoting Heinlein.
>
>Tod

Well, I wouldn't want to learn my politics from either of them.  Too 
dictatorial.  I'll stick to the first for science fiction and the second 
for shooting techniques.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:08:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:08:30 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <B8D358F8.3771D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204051404360.29700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

> on 4/5/02 1:06 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several
> > places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and
> > they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone
> > in the place.

OK, color me clueless, but-- if you go to someone's house on a SHOOTING
trip, wouldn't you expect them to have GUNS?

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh.

> > Fear and loathing ensues.  At one place, when my first wife
> > left, there was a meeting held "about John" without my
> > knowledge, to address "a potential problem".  Nothing ever
> > happened, and I've never been one to make threats or act out.

And this was while you were still married, right?  Man!!!!!

They were concerned about my ex-husband at my workplace for a while, but
that was because they knew the breakup was not friendly. 

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>

>Actually, combat was far deadlier in the age of sword, on a
>percentage basis (not counting that you probably would die of
>infection if merely wounded).

But I do count that.  And, as you go on to point out, the biggest factor of 
all...
>Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.
>Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally
>ensued.
>
>
>ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
>opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
>we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
>I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
>nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
>missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their
>ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on
>the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay
>waste to an advanced industrial society?

Well, we're sortakinda talking about 'Victorians in space' and that sort of 
warfare is barbaric and just bloody unsporting, old boy.  Besides, if all 
the worlds end up getting nuked, where the heck are the players going to play?

In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear 
devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and 
convincing reasons for it.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D361DF.37767%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 1:32 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> Actually, combat was far deadlier in the age of sword, on a
> percentage basis (not counting that you probably would die of
> infection if merely wounded).

I've never seen any good statistics.  Was it really, man-for-man deadlier?
I would have thought most casualties came from the pursuit stage, where
doubtless or progenitors were much more blood thirsty.  An disease was by
far the biggest killer of soldiers, at least until WWII.
> 
> Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.
> Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally
> ensued.

Yes, the pursuit.  What you've been saving your cavalry for.
> 
> We've talked about it before, but the Dupuy curve shows
> weapon lethality shooting through the ceiling while
> battlefield deaths keep going down.  We're scattering,
> running, etc.  And we're not willing to engage face to face,
> human against human (what is a Predator with Hellfire,
> anyway: a one-way killing machine).

I'm going to have to read "Understanding War" again.  It's been too long.

> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> war.  

I'm not sure that's true any more.  Call for no quarter and the enemy is apt
to adopt a DIP attitude and fight to the last man.  Care to fight a hundred
Camerons?  Hard on your won troops morale.

If you treat you captives well, there more of an inducement to surrender.
Than you really only have to polish off the leadership.

> People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.
> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

Well, I wouldn't call the OT an accurate history in the modern sense.  The
greatest empire were forged by armies that accepted the surrender of their
foes, and absorbed their culture.
> 
> It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message
> across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you
> have to do.

When the Germans marched triumphantly through Paris after the Fraco-Prussian
was, that scene was burned into the minds of every Frenchman.  Then followed
Versailles, which made WWII possible.  We win WWII and turn loose the
Marshall plan.  Anyone think we'll be going to war with Germany soon?
> 
> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
> 
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their
> ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on
> the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay
> waste to an advanced industrial society?


Nuke a few worlds and you'll have you enemy screaming "Remember Altair 7" or
whatever.  Start nuking my worlds like that, and I'll decide I can never
make peace with you, that I must fight to the last man, and burn two of your
worlds for every one on mine you destroy.  It's a bloody calculus that's
bound to backfire.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <20020405.141338.-122687.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:58:04 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> 
> I've mostly rolled my characters in private, and I've never 
> really shown my sheet to others.

Right, sheets are private.

I'm talking about a group setting, you're into your game, and out of the
blue [on que with the GM] a persons character reverts to his former
career, be it military, psycho, war flashback, librarian for that matter,
which the group has no idea of until the characters turned loose by a
code word, light, smell, whatever.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D3629C.3776C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 2:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear
> devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and
> convincing reasons for it.

MAD
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:07:07PM -0500
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net> <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020405152015.A19842@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:07:07PM -0500, laning wrote:
>
> I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.

Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
However, it is important not to stare at the enemy because he may sense
the stalker's presence through a sixth sense.
  --US Army Field Manual 21-150 Chapter 7 "Sentry Removal"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <20020405.142533.-122687.3.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 14:03:28 -0800 Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> on 4/5/02 1:59 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com 
> wrote:
> >> And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial  cousin,
> >> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? 
> What?
> >> -Ken Murphy-
> > 
> > The handles made of Penguin bone!
> > The heads diamond grit plated!
> 
> Wouldn't penguin bone be kind of small. 

*** Bonded Superdense Penguin bones ***

> How about oosik? 

Say what??? What's Oosik??

Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <20020405.142533.-122687.3.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <B8D36663.37773%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 2:25 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> 
>> How about oosik?
> 
> Say what??? What's Oosik??
> 

A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
bone from a walrus penis.  See
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html

"I am the walrus.  Koo Koo Kachew!"
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <20020405.143525.-122687.4.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:20:15 -0700 "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:
> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 05:07:07PM -0500, laning wrote:
> >
> > I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.
> 
> Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
> blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
> strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.
> -- 

With me, being on the giving end is like putting on a warm fuzzy jacket
on a cold day. 
Makes me feel warm all over.
Which is why I sold my rifle.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020406083804.B25929@freeman.little-possums.net>

laning wrote:
> In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear
> devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong
> and convincing reasons for it.

Near-c rock devastation is so much more effective?  <grin,duck,run>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <200204052240.g35MeAh25949@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

  CT stats are in an old SG (~#50?); the same one with 
the "Killer RV" for CW, IIRC :>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: bayonets
Message-ID: <200204052242.g35Mg9h26355@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
...
>The problem is that neither side really like the bayonet.  We it comes right
>down to it, the attackers rarely actually thrust into their opponents. Look
>at the reports of the number of actual bayonet wounds in the Napoleonic
>wars, or even the American civil war.  The other side usually runs before it
>gets to that, or the attackers stop short.

  But would they have run if the attackers - well, about-to-be-
pursuing infantry - _didn't_ have bayonets?  I suggest not.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:44:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:44:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <B8D35F30.3775F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020405.135958.-122687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405174141.00abfe98@urbin.net>

At 02:03 PM 4/5/2002 -0800, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 4/5/02 1:59 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> >> And just how does a "Space" axe differ from its terrestrial cousin,
> >> anyhow? Monofilament edged? Rocket boosted on the downstroke? What?
> >> -Ken Murphy-
> > The handles made of Penguin bone!
> > The heads diamond grit plated!
>Wouldn't penguin bone be kind of small.  How about oosik?  Then you get the
>pleasure of explaining just where this unique handle material comes from.

Hmm...I would go with K'kree thighbones.



-------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"The self is not something that one finds. It is
something that one creates." - Thomas Szasz
-------------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 14:59:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 14:59:28 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
References: <20020405.125213.-122687.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CAE2C1B.9030204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> Oh, I like this...
> 
> How about a character doing the same?
> Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her past, and late in
> a game spring it on your group.
>

All the time. In  Eris' Akus Moby pbem all the characters started out 
knowing nothing about each other...we only know what our characters have 
told the others, in some cases that's probably just the tip of the iceberg.

All of us have some secrets, I'm sure.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <memo.290869@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200204052058.DKT04431@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

On Ronin: it's a trick question. There are 2 boathouses.

Don't ask me how I know :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] PBeM  Refs
Message-ID: <B8D36E7D.3778F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Would all the PBeM refs who are running lists on TravellerCentral.com
please add listmom@travellercentral.com to addresses that can post to your
list.

Thanks way I can send administrative messages to all the various list
subscribers.

See the section is list admin: privacy option that starts

"Addresses of members accepted for posting to this list without implicit
approval requirement."


Thanks
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
In-Reply-To: <B8D25DA1.375C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAAEMDCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn says

[Even going back to was where the bayonet was the primary weapon of the
infantry (The time of flintlock muskets) the  number of wounds caused by
bayonets was extremely small.]

That's because if I find someone at the end of my bayonet, they're not 
going to be wounded.  They won't even make it to the aid station.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204052324.g35NOjh06085@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
>Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
...
>>ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
>>opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
>>we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
...
>In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear 
>devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and 
>convincing reasons for it.

  The K'kree seem to be the only major polity that believes in
re-surfacing planets as a matter of policy. There's all sorts
of amateurs that try and compete for the title, but mostly sanity
(MAD) or cultural constraints interfere.

        Kirurform (def'n) - application of massive thermo-nuclear
and cobalt weapon bombardment to a planet inhabited by sapient
carnivores in a traditional K'kree cultural context. Wait 500
years, seed, mow, and colonize.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 15:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 15:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <B8D361DF.37767%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405173809.0288c1a0@pop.wizard.net>

Following are excerpt from original post by John Kwon and reply by Tod 
Glenn, interspersed with your humble correspondent's remarks.
> > Most deaths occurred, however, when one formation broke.
> > Then they couldn't run fast enough, and slaughter generally
> > ensued.
>
>Yes, the pursuit.  What you've been saving your cavalry for.
Well, I agree somewhat.  I think that in classical and preclassical times, 
a lot of the vanquished were killed.  But most of them not during 
pursuit.  Most of them were slaughtered as prisoners.

As for our progenitors being more bloodthirsty than us, I doubt that I 
understand your statement quite the way you meant it, Tod.  You've 
elsewhere made plain that you think people tend to be people regardless of 
costume or nation or other things.  Like century.  Perhaps you were saying 
that during the pursuit phase of a battle, our progenitors did more killing 
than we do today during the pursuit phase?  I myself think just as many of 
us today are just as bloodthirsty and genocidal as we ever were in 
yesteryear.  The major difference is that today, the people who are trying 
to stop that sort of thing have more power than they did in the past.

(The good news is that there was a signing of a truce today between the 
rebels in Angola and the government, and the next step is the rebels will 
be turning in their arms.  While I doubt the peace will be perfect, this is 
pretty historic.  They've been fighting for a quarter of a century.  I 
admire anyone who can put the desire for vengeance behind them and live in 
peace with their former enemy.  Good luck to them.)

> >
> > We've talked about it before, but the Dupuy curve shows
> > weapon lethality shooting through the ceiling while
> > battlefield deaths keep going down.  We're scattering,
> > running, etc.  And we're not willing to engage face to face,
> > human against human (what is a Predator with Hellfire,
> > anyway: a one-way killing machine).
>
>I'm going to have to read "Understanding War" again.  It's been too long.
I recommend 'Numbers, Prediction & War' by Dupuy.  He certainly has the 
statistics there, including that charming devil, graphs.  I would provide a 
link to it on Amazon, but it would be best to go to Loren Wiseman's site at 
http://www.io.com/~lkw/ and follow his link to Amazon.  That way he makes a 
little money towards the Free The Storage Bin Seven Fund.  :->


> > I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> > survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> > war.

I can't buy into that at all, John.  Sorry.  Wars seem no more omnipresent 
today than they were in classical times.  The only relationships I would 
draw are the motivation for vengeance that connects the survivors to a mass 
slaughter, and Malthusian effects of reducing population pressure by 
reducing population.  Two forces that relationships that seem in opposition 
to each other.  Even if you massacre _all_ your enemy, even the children 
below age six, you will put yourself high on the rest of the world's 
Enemies To Destroy list.  There will come the day you are on the losing 
side in a war, and genocide is not a precedent that you'd like to have around.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <B8D3629C.3776C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:18 PM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
>on 4/5/02 2:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
>
> > In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear
> > devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and
> > convincing reasons for it.
>
>MAD


But mutual destruction is not assured.  One side would have to win a 
years-long naval campaign in order to deliver its nuclear warheads against 
all the appropriate targets.  Strephon, from the comfort of his Capital 
doesn't fear in the least for his own safety or his families in the event 
of nuclear exchange with the Zhodani.  And the Vargr Extents are such a 
hotheaded place that I cannot be convinced all the nuclear warheads that 
have been in that region for centuries were never used due to its leaders' 
very enlightened view about protecting civilization.  As the Sword Worlders 
should have nuked whoever they were ticked at many times over by now.  And 
the Aslan prize honor well above their own individual lives.  Aside from 
cultural biases toward or away nuclear warfare, there have just been so 
many _individual_ sophonts with their fingers on the button in different 
times and places that it should have happened many times by now.

And in a way, the game's authors agree with that notion.  But only in 
general.  There seems to be a lack of specific worlds that have actually 
been thoroughly nuked over to go with the general history of 
destruction.  Let me go through all the relevant canonical evidence that 
come to my (sputtering and unreliable) memory to see what each one in turn 
makes me think about how MAD affected things.

The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:
The Ancients War
Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani
Presumably the N Interstellar wars
Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night
Very early in Zhodani history
Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) from 
on Darrian

At least I think it was nukes with Darrian.  Or something just as 
devastating, so the MAD concept would still apply.

I can easily accept that enough time has passed since nuclear weapons were 
used by the Ancients that we shouldn't look for reduced populations or 
uninhabitable areas due to them.  But their war is an example of none of 
the sides being deterred by MAD.

The war against the Ziru Sirka should have left marks on various planets 
that would have been mentioned elsewhere in canon.  It is an example of 
just how geographically vast wars between interstellar powers are, and how 
that makes MAD unlikely.

There don't seem to be any worlds still showing mentionable signs of 
nuclear weapons from the N Instellar Wars.  Ditto for examples from the 
Long Night.

Zhodane's problem is so long ago that it is surprising its memory still 
leaves such an indelible impression on Zhodani culture.

Darrian seems to be a good canonical instance of nuclear warfare happening 
specifically somewhere, not just in a general way to somebody.

Oh, there's that nuclear blowup instigated by the Ine Givar but that seems 
more of an isolated terrorist incident than a war.  Or at least nothing 
that you can really apply the concept of MAD to.

I find it hard to believe there are no famous specific examples of worlds 
in the Core sector being "razed" by nukes dropped by one of the Barracks 
Emperors or wannabes.  Civil wars tend to be the least civil, as the old 
saying goes.

If one goes forward with the entire post-Assassination timeline, then it 
sure didn't take any of the sides long to start wiping out anything they 
felt like.  Which makes it harder to believe that MAD was holding other 
sophonts back during all the previous centuries of various conflicts.

This all leads me to believe that MAD isn't an effective strategy against a 
geographically _very_ dispersed opponent.  And that there is a disconnect 
between the number of specific locales in canon that have suffered nuclear 
devastation and the amount of nuclear devastation we're led to believe 
actually has happened.

There are also quite a few canonical instances of balkanized worlds or 
neighboring worlds that are on the brink of total nuclear warfare in the 
current timeline.  If such tensions have careened towards the brink so 
often in current times, how could they have been so consistently avoided 
during the pasts of all the locations that canon visits and shows us.

Hope the above was coherent enough.  I wrote it in rushed bits and pieces 
while running around the house doing other stuff.  Comments and reasoned 
debate welcome, as always.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020405152015.A19842@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162248.028b3480@pop.wizard.net>
 <B8D33CFD.376D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200204051857.DKP04540@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405162357.00abfe98@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170212.0395a5d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405192605.02886990@pop.wizard.net>

Bob Uhl quotes me then responds:
> > I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.
>
>Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.

Not sure who you're referring to.  There are people who have unreasoning or 
disproportionate fear of either end, true.  And I think a lot of people 
have a fear of having the things around their abode, particularly if they 
have children.  There are enough statistics about accidents in the home and 
impulsive domestic shootings to make that seem reasonable attitude, even if 
you don't fully agree with or support it.  The point being that it's 
probably a healthy survivial response to avoid having guns in the house 
just like it's a healthy survival response to avoid working in coal mines, 
but YMMV.  I am honestly sympathetic to more than one side in the gun 
control debate, and think we're at the stage where reasonable people can 
agree to disagree.  (BTW, I don't any firearms but I love shooting rifles 
and shotguns.  :-)

Hey.  Wouldn't fear of a bullet-'proof' jacket be more like being afraid of 
a jacket?  You almost fooled me for a minute there.  LOL  :->

There are members of the TML who are also proud (some, even rabid  :-) 
members of the TML Rod & Gun Club.  And there are some who are not.  The 
membership lists are unlikely to ever be altered, and I never meant to get 
into a debate over whether all people who [like/hate] guns are idiotic 
sickos or not.

I think both TML Rod & Gun Clubbers and others who are opposed can all 
agree that _some_ people who own guns, and carry guns around, are moved 
primarily by psychological need to find a surrogate or maybe just plain 
anger, and not by some other need that the rest of us agree or disagree 
about the reasonableness of.  Sometimes a cigar is _not_ just a cigar, and 
sometimes a gun is not just a gun.  Other times, they are.  My Freud remark 
was merely an opportunistic bit of humor intended to give everyone a laugh 
and lighten things up for all who read it.

I've probably prattled on longer than is necessary and will shut up now, 
and post no further on the topic.  Unless it's a joke.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020405.143525.-122687.4.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405194636.028fd650@pop.wizard.net>

>With me, being on the giving end is like putting on a warm fuzzy jacket
>on a cold day.
>Makes me feel warm all over.
>Which is why I sold my rifle.
>
>Turokan

LOL!

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020406083804.B25929@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405194804.028abec0@pop.wizard.net>

Tim Little japed:

>Near-c rock devastation is so much more effective?  <grin,duck,run>

Sounds like you'd better duck and cover.  <G>

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 16:46:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 16:46:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405192605.02886990@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D3852E.377A4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 4:41 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

This has wandered off topic.  Please move this to tml-chat or tml-guntech as
appropriate.

Rule of thumb.  There should be an ObTrav.

> Bob Uhl quotes me then responds:
>>> I think fear of weapons is a healthy survival response.
>> 
>> Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>> blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>> strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.
> 
> Not sure who you're referring to.  There are people who have unreasoning or
> disproportionate fear of either end, true.  And I think a lot of people
> have a fear of having the things around their abode, particularly if they
> have children.  There are enough statistics about accidents in the home and
> impulsive domestic shootings to make that seem reasonable attitude, even if
> you don't fully agree with or support it.  The point being that it's
> probably a healthy survivial response to avoid having guns in the house
> just like it's a healthy survival response to avoid working in coal mines,
> but YMMV.  I am honestly sympathetic to more than one side in the gun
> control debate, and think we're at the stage where reasonable people can
> agree to disagree.  (BTW, I don't any firearms but I love shooting rifles
> and shotguns.  :-)
> 
> Hey.  Wouldn't fear of a bullet-'proof' jacket be more like being afraid of
> a jacket?  You almost fooled me for a minute there.  LOL  :->
> 
> There are members of the TML who are also proud (some, even rabid  :-)
> members of the TML Rod & Gun Club.  And there are some who are not.  The
> membership lists are unlikely to ever be altered, and I never meant to get
> into a debate over whether all people who [like/hate] guns are idiotic
> sickos or not.
> 
> I think both TML Rod & Gun Clubbers and others who are opposed can all
> agree that _some_ people who own guns, and carry guns around, are moved
> primarily by psychological need to find a surrogate or maybe just plain
> anger, and not by some other need that the rest of us agree or disagree
> about the reasonableness of.  Sometimes a cigar is _not_ just a cigar, and
> sometimes a gun is not just a gun.  Other times, they are.  My Freud remark
> was merely an opportunistic bit of humor intended to give everyone a laugh
> and lighten things up for all who read it.
> 
> I've probably prattled on longer than is necessary and will shut up now,
> and post no further on the topic.  Unless it's a joke.
> 
> --Laning
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
Message-ID: <20020405.170459.-184723.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Laning

On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 19:46:54 -0500 laning <laning@wizard.net> writes:
> 
> >With me, being on the giving end is like putting on a warm fuzzy 
> >jacket on a cold day. Makes me feel warm all over.
> >Which is why I sold my rifle.
> >
> >Turokan
> 
> LOL!
> 
> --Laning

The US Army trained me well... 

Just don't give me a weapon, I change like Dr. Jeckle [sp] and Mr. Hyde
[sp].

However, if you want me on your team - please do :~)

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020405224405.6103A27A92@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020405164806.00a49df0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:20:15 -0700, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

>Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.

Put me down as afraid of guns, then.  Being in the presence of a real, 
functioning weapon makes me nervous.  In most circumstances, I would refuse 
to even hold one.

To some extent, this is probably because I was never acclimated to them as 
a youth, through hunting or whatever.  But I am similarly nervous around 
anything that can cause death or serious injury, even/especially by 
accident or negligence.  For example, I used to work at a gas station; part 
of my job was refilling propane cylinders from the big tank out back.  I 
hated it.  The stuff was cryo-cold, flammable, explosive, and under high 
pressure.  I was trained for it, but I still hated it.

There's also the "with great power comes great responsibility" angle.  I do 
not want or need the power to maim or kill another human being, or the 
responsibility that necessarily comes with it.  At this time and place, I 
am happier not having to handle guns.  (And yes, I'm fully aware of how 
privileged I am that I've never had to pick up a deadly weapon, let alone 
use one in anger.)

It's a lot harder to kill someone with a jacket.  Definitely not 
impossible, but jackets are not primarily designed to apply deadly 
force.  A firearm is, and I grant them all the respect they are due as a 
result.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] G:Ground Forces queston
Message-ID: <B8D3910E.30E8%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

Hi,

In the Grav vehicle design section, duct fans are listed as having a
positive energy amount, instead of negative.  Is this an error or do they
actually act as power plants?

Thanks,

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 17:41:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr  5 17:41:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
References: <20020405194007.A9EDC27A7A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CAE5228.FED9D9B0@earthlink.net>

Thank you, Messers Brick, Scheets, Whipsnade, and all others
who offered an answer to my question.

I recently found the original 1981 character sheet for
my favorite character of all time. He went through SORAG
as part of his pre-game career and had picked up the skill
of "Holster".

While I best remember the item from The Deathworld
Trilogy novels Mr. Whipsnade referred to, I do recall
seeing it for the first time on good ol' Wild Wild West.

Personally, though, I really like the one used by the
Pyrrans in the trilogy.

I really don't see it being practical, given Harrison's
"power holster" had the strength to rip through rough-woven
cloth,  especially since the sidearm it propelled into
the wearer's hand in less than one second, fired a large
caliber HEAP round, and had no trigger guard.

Either a White Dwarf or a Space Gamer mag actually
had CT stats for them. Ah, for the days of being a
Traveller munchkin! <grin>

For those of you who may be interested in these works
by Harry Harrison, may I suggest the following site:

http://www.iol.ie/~carrollm/hh/n01-01.htm

It has some details on the various publications of the
adventures of the trilogy's hero, psionic gambler Jason
dinAlt, including a new trilogy published only for the 
Russian market!  :(

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 18:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri Apr  5 18:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
Message-ID: <001101c1dd0f$c57c7340$f619f7a5@pctframen>

Sorta on topic for this subject, in that it deals with an incident where the
communication delay was vital. As usual, when thinking about Traveller
communication, a pre-20th Century example is useful:

"[Louis Remme, a cowboy] was at Sacramento, California, on Feb. 2nd [1855]
when he received a draft ion the Adams and Company Bank of San Francisco for
twelve thousand dollars. Unfortunately, he delayed cashing the draft until
the following morning. Meanwhile, the San Francisco bank had become a
financial casualty overnight. This failure caused its branch banks,
including the one in Sacramento, to close their doors immediately...
    "But, and his thoughts were racing, there was still a chance. It was a
slim possibility, but worth a try...The San Francisco firm had a branch in
Portland, Oregon, seven hundred miles away. The northern branch would not
close until word reached there from San Francisco; and that word would have
to go by sea, the only direct line of communication with the Columbia River
region at that time. The ship...was scheduled to depart from San Francisco
that morning. Its sailing time was six days. His one long chance was to beat
the boat to Oregon and cash his draft before the Portland bank received the
order to close its doors...."

[Source: _The Rawhide Years_, Glen R Vernam]

Remme made it on time, just beating the boat. The ObTravs are interesting;
presumably, buy/sell orders to a brokerage would operate in a similar
manner, perhaps allowing the PCs to beat their own order. Situations similar
to the one Renne faced could still crop up, especially in marginal systems
that only get official mail once a week.

(Of course, the probability that a modern common-stock corporation could
operate given Traveller communications is slim, but what the hey...)

Fred "Hell for Leather" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 18:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri Apr  5 18:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <3CAE2C1B.9030204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020406023936.E756627A91@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/05/02 at 03:58 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

>> Oh, I like this...
>> 
>> How about a character doing the same?
>> Only the GM and this persons character knows of his/her past, and late in
>> a game spring it on your group.
>>

>All the time. In  Eris' Akus Moby pbem all the characters started out
> knowing nothing about each other...we only know what our characters
>have  told the others, in some cases that's probably just the tip of
>the iceberg.

>All of us have some secrets, I'm sure.

That statement is true...or false. <weg>

I will say that some of the juiciest secrets were being carried by
characters that have been orphaned. Of the "cousins and partners"
we've had Martan and Sarge disappear in a misjump, Sir Jason leave to
direct a play, and April simply not disembark from the ship when it
reached Kurzu. But, Ricardo doesn't have any secrets does he? <g>

Eris


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [Corridor] Re: Laning & char gen
References: <20020405194005.BABCE27A79@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <007601c1dd18$0a3ce0c0$945d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> Bayonet training is obsolete until you are faced with an assault while
> desperately low on ammo and you have no support.  Then knowing how to
> perform surgery with a knife on a stick will come in *real* handy.

Yep.  My WWII veteran friend has mentioned how when his company were just
about out of ammunition and surrounded, they were preparing to fix their
bayonets and die.  Fortunately for them, relief came just in the nick of
time.  They fired their last ammunition at the Japanese as they retreated.

> From: Matthew Bond
> The principal aim of a bayonet charge is to cause the flight or surrender
> of the defenders of a position.

This seems to have been the point of a bayonet charge my friend described to
me.  The charge was about thirty metres long, incidentally - more or less
how far you could see through the jungle.

> As soon as the initial terror subsided he (and now I can't recall exactly
> which) either threw down his weapon and ran for his life, or threw down
> his weapon and surrendered.

An account of an Australian bayonet charge in the official WWII histories
describe five armed Japanese soldiers just standing around squealing while a
single Australian soldier stabbed them to death.  Clearly, shock happens.

> To quote Corporal Jones in Dad's Army... "Cold Steel, Sir. They don't
> like it up 'em!"

A comment in the Australian histories suggest that the Japanese forces
didn't like facing Australian bayonet charges.  Apparently, all that
practice shouting "Banzai!" didn't actually translate into a willingness to
stand their ground against some other mad sod with a big knife on a stick.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:03:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:03:51 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
Message-ID: <007701c1dd18$0af3fbc0$945d8690@computer>

> From: Bruce Johnson 
> One sentence that engenders fear and panic in every starship owner's
> heart: 'Bwap compliance inspector.'

Would it help if your ship's accountant was a Virushi?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] FF&S Help
In-Reply-To: <001101c1dd0f$c57c7340$f619f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAAEGNCOAA.redroach@pobox.com>

Does anyone know of a good FF&S spreadsheet for designing aircraft?

Or even better does anyone out there want to help me design a VTOL craft
using FF&S?

I have some basic specs, picture, etc...
I just HELP

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
Message-ID: <200204060325.DLH01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Or Unobtanium, maybe.  I seem to remember some science 
fiction a ways back talking about firing osmium needles at 
hypervelocities...

http://www.sciencenews.org/20020406/fob2.asp

So much for diamond coating of metals.  Maybe that axe that 
Laning's character wants to carry is coated with osmium.

ObTrav:  Giving things names like "bonded superdense" might 
be OK while I'm designing Striker vehicles, but I am always 
wondering, "superdense what?"  It's nice to know that I could 
extrapolate and say, "it's osmium, silly".
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:34:02 2002
Subject: Living...on an Airplane...(wasRe: [TML] Imperial Rights)
In-Reply-To: <3ca99b9a.4755858@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20405.185820.1a4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I want an L5 space station, then I can not only declare independence,
> but address communications to world leaders as "foolish
> Earth-beings!".
>
> And if anybody objects, well, I'm at the top of the gravity well and
> there are lots of rocks in space...

Not handy to L5. And especially not in quantities sufficient to defend
you against the folks on Earth after you send the *first* one at them.
That overgrown tin can is a lot more vulnerable than Earth.

You could hurt Earth. They could *kill* you. 

Say a pattern of nukes a thousand or so km from you. That'd overload
the solar flare shielding by quite a bit. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:37:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Trista)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:37:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
References: <200204060325.DLH01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAE6BBC.D28B1C82@the-spa.com>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> Or Unobtanium, maybe.  I seem to remember some science
> fiction a ways back talking about firing osmium needles at
> hypervelocities...

Hmmm, that sounds like the book 'Forlorn Hope'; mercenaries use
something called a 'cone bore rifle', the barrel of which is supposedly
of diamond and fires an osmium needle which is compressed as it travels
through the barrel and reaches hypervelocites. Had them in cannon size
too as I recall.

Now I have to go hunt up my copy and check. LOL Curiosity.

Siani
-- 
"Virisque Adquirit Eundo"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <200204060325.DLH01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3B0C0.377EB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 7:25 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Or Unobtanium, maybe.  I seem to remember some science
> fiction a ways back talking about firing osmium needles at
> hypervelocities...

David Drake, IIRC, in his stories


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 19:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 19:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <3CAE6BBC.D28B1C82@the-spa.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3B11B.377EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 7:30 PM, Trista at asmahan@the-spa.com wrote:

> Hmmm, that sounds like the book 'Forlorn Hope'; mercenaries use
> something called a 'cone bore rifle', the barrel of which is supposedly
> of diamond and fires an osmium needle which is compressed as it travels
> through the barrel and reaches hypervelocites. Had them in cannon size
> too as I recall.

That goes back to the old Gerlich AT guns of WWII.  I think the squeeze bore
has pretty much fallen out of favor, replaced by the discarding sabot.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 20:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr  5 20:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] pilot specs
Message-ID: <20020405.205600.-3247.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hi all,

This is for anyone who might know.

What are the real life size minimum and maximum hight requirements for a
combat fighter pilot?
Obviously if you can't sit in the seat, or reach the pedals fully pressed
down you're out.

ObTrav:
These requirements will effect fighter cockpits for world based craft,
and possibly starship fighters and small craft.

How would this effect pilot skills in the 57th century?
Would a GM allow a short, or very large character in the pilot seat?
Would it be safe?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <005f01c1dd29$f7b338c0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "laning" <laning@wizard.net>
> The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:
> The Ancients War
> Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani
> Presumably the N Interstellar wars
> Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night
> Very early in Zhodani history
> Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) from
> on Darrian
>
> At least I think it was nukes with Darrian.  Or something just as
> devastating, so the MAD concept would still apply.
>
> Darrian seems to be a good canonical instance of nuclear warfare happening
> specifically somewhere, not just in a general way to somebody.

The cause of the Darrian Collapse wasn't nuclear weapons, it was the
Maghiz... the after effects of an innocent science project to survey the
Primary Star of Darrian, that inadvertently caused it to undergo a Nova-like
hiccup...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New TML archive and privacy?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CADDD4F.2653D635@cnetech.com> <B8D3324C.376A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <2b1tauotjjqq4c8v1v1vn5isvpbofrd549@4ax.com>

On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 10:51:56 -0800, Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

>on 4/5/02 9:22 AM, KevinC at kevinc@cnetech.com wrote:
>> Tod,
>>=20
>> Will the new TML archive be accessible by web search engines and
>> bots/spiders?
>>=20
>> If yes, then you need to do something to protect the email addresses =
of
>> anyone whose posts are in the archive.
>>=20
>> Otherwise "harvesters" will grab them all, and spam the good ( still
>> active) ones.
>
>I will write a routine to alter emails to counter harvesting.

Thank you for thinking of doing so.  I wonder if it might be easiest
to simply remove the actual e-mail address and leave the user's name.
=46or instance, on this reply, all the addresses which would be seen
would be "Tod Glenn" and "KevinC".  Neither would be much risk from a
harvester standpoint and yet they would easily be plainly read.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kknife fighting (was: Arm Rig?)
In-Reply-To: <B8D349EE.376FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204051952.DKR04175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020405231806.02bc3a70@mail.earthlink.net>


So is the Kknife a special K'kree weapon? :)

Jimmy Simpson                        nimrodd@mail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405212730.024a9190@mail.verizon.net>

Hmm, my first reply got bounced, so here 'tis again.  :-)

Hi David,

Check out:

http://home.earthlink.net/~backslash/

Best regards,

Charles McKnight 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 21:30:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Apr  5 21:30:06 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
In-Reply-To: <000b01c1dc7a$655e8a60$f000a8c0@imogen>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020405224838.04445dd0@rollanet.org>

At 04:59 PM 4/4/02, you wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> > I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor
> > training.
>
>I used to work a a company that tried for (and got) ISO 9000/9001
>certification: it was easy-peasy!
>
>1) Have a documented procedure for everything
>2) Make sure all staff know where the latest  versions  of  those
>    documents are (ie. where on the PC server)
>
>The fact that we didn't actually follow those  procedures  (close
>scrutiny would have revealed they were unworkable anyhow)  didn't
>seem to matter.
>
>Its just a case of understanding the game.
>

Funny, the auditor who is checking the company I work for keeps wanting to 
see actual proof that we are following our procedures.


--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>

From: laning <laning@wizard.net>

     "The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:"

Sir,

     My take on your list:

     "The Ancients War"

     Perhaps.  Gramps and the Kiddies and the Grandkiddies had access to 
devices that make nukes look like waterballoons.  They still may have used 
them, no weapon is really ever obsolete.

     "Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani."

     Canon is littered with references to the Vilani "way" of war being 
brutally pragmatic.  IMHO, the Ziru Sirka would have used nukes early and 
often.  Then again, I have trouble believing the canonical description of 
the Interstellar War anyway.
     GT:RoF has the Vilani visiting Terra after the 2nd War.  These 
representatives of the ZS must have been either brain dead or traitors not 
to bring an accurate report back to Dingir from Sol.  After being shown a 
~10 billion humans on an industrialized world, the "brutally pragmatic" 
Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt.
     All the explanations about population levels, internal Vilani politics, 
blah, blah, blah, are just liberal doses of handwavium.  With the 
superioroty in maneuver drives and missile tech that RoF claims for them, 
the Ziro Sirka would have, could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it 
glowed.

     "Presumably the N Interstellar wars."

     The ZS certainly, "scorched earth" tactics during their long retreat.  
The TC maybe, after all they want to colonize and/or rule.  No need to mess 
up the planets you're taking over.

     "Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night."

     Agreed.  See the "Sack of Gasikan(?)", a world heavily nuked by the 
Vargr that recovers to found and lead a genocidal minded, anti-Vargr pocket 
empire.

     "Very early in Zhodani history."

     No.  Two Dark Ages in Zho history, one when a low tech "universal" 
empire collapses, ala Rome, China, etc. and another when space missions to 
Zhodane's moon brings back a dormant Ancient bio-weapon.  No nuke exchanges 
mentioned or intimated at all.
     This doesn't mean that the Zho's haven't used them on occasion 
elsewhere in the Consulate.

     "Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) 
from on Darrian."

     No.  The Maghurz(sp) was the result of two experiments involving Tanis, 
Darrian's primary, that horribly interacted with each other.  Pre-contact 
Darrian history was suprisingly peaceful, for humans.

     A few you forgot to mention;
     Kuzu - The Aslan's Second World War was nuclear, the Third one, which 
the arrival of "Pathfinder" prevented, was going to nuclear too.  Shame it 
didn't happen.
     Asmodeus - A balkanized Zho world in the Marches had a nuclear exchange 
sometime in the 1090's.  Guess the Thought Police were all out getting 
doughnuts.
     Unknown - IIRC, there's a balkanized world mentioned somewhere in canon 
that went nucelar.  The population there lived in domes and levels took 
quite a nose dive before the Marines could intervene.

     "This all leads me to believe that MAD isn't an effective strategy
against a geographically _very_ dispersed opponent."

     Perhaps, or maybe it's just damper technology.  I don't have Striker to 
hand, but IIRC dampers pretty much draw the fangs out of nukes.  How 
easy/hard would it be for PDFs to maintain damper coverage for an entire 
world?  Could such coverage be projected from orbit by naval vessels?  If 
so, the 3I could show up above some balkanized world with a nasty squabble 
taking place and declare a "no-nukes" zone with a couple of orbitting 
escorts.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D3DF55.37819%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 10:59 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:

> "The Ancients War"
> 
> Perhaps.  Gramps and the Kiddies and the Grandkiddies had access to
> devices that make nukes look like waterballoons.  They still may have used
> them, no weapon is really ever obsolete.
> 
[snip]

Then of course we haven't considered nuclear dampers.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3B11B.377EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CAE6BBC.D28B1C82@the-spa.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406023413.0396cdf0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn says:
>That goes back to the old Gerlich AT guns of WWII.  I think the squeeze bore
>has pretty much fallen out of favor, replaced by the discarding sabot.

Whoa.  Thanks for the reminder.  I'd completely forgotten about those 
things, it's been so long.  Yeah, I was always pretty dubious about them.

The only ObTrav I can think of is that there is no ObTrav for the simple 
reason that firearms design in the 57th century has long since evolved to 
be as good as it can possibly get and every theoretical new twist has 
already been examined, and tried, and tried again.  Local conditions may 
vary from world to world, but I am talking about overall.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: economic crash
In-Reply-To: <001101c1dd0f$c57c7340$f619f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406024845.0396aa80@pop.wizard.net>

Fred Ramen quotes a fascinating story about a Old Time Westerner getting 
700 miles in six days to a bank branch before the bank learned from its 
headquarters that it was kaput:

>(Of course, the probability that a modern common-stock corporation could
>operate given Traveller communications is slim, but what the hey...)

Stock exchanges on each world will tend to only trade shares of 
corporations that do their primary business in that system.  Megacorps will 
trade at a glacial pace compared to something like our own New York Stock 
Exchange.  You will make an appointment to meet with your buy/seller of 
Ling Standard Products, for instance.  And the buyer will be required to 
sign some forms to prove they've done a due diligence study of the risks, 
blah, blah.

Also, the megacorps and other star-spanning corporations will set up local 
subsidiaries for each world where they have significant operational 
presence or financial stake and the shares traded on the exchanges of that 
world will only be shares of the subsidiary, not the owning megacorp.

That's my fast answer.  Haven't pondered it beyond that.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr  5 23:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr  5 23:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <005f01c1dd29$f7b338c0$52200050@matt>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406025432.03968d20@pop.wizard.net>

Matt Bond sets the record straight:

>The cause of the Darrian Collapse wasn't nuclear weapons, it was the
>Maghiz... the after effects of an innocent science project to survey the
>Primary Star of Darrian, that inadvertently caused it to undergo a Nova-like
>hiccup...

Thank you, sir.  I knew it was much more exotic than nuclear warfare.  And 
I completely got wrong the angle of it being a war of any kind.  Yes, it 
seems to me that the Maghiz thing left a lot of speculation about the 
Grandfather or someone deciding not to let anyone go past TL 15.  If you 
prefer the secret conspiracy view of things, that is.  Or it could have 
been just one more example of mankind's hubris being too self destructive, 
like Ikaros having the wax melt on his wings.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 00:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406030132.03931080@pop.wizard.net>

Larsen Whipsnade very helpfully responded to and improved my list of 
nuclear warfare and MAD related canon:
<<<snip most of it>>>
>    Asmodeus - A balkanized Zho world in the Marches had a nuclear 
> exchange sometime in the 1090's.  Guess the Thought Police were all out 
> getting doughnuts.

Doughnuts, LOL!


>     Unknown - IIRC, there's a balkanized world mentioned somewhere in 
> canon that went nucelar.  The population there lived in domes and levels 
> took quite a nose dive before the Marines could intervene.
>
>     "This all leads me to believe that MAD isn't an effective strategy
>against a geographically _very_ dispersed opponent."
>
>     Perhaps, or maybe it's just damper technology.  I don't have Striker 
> to hand, but IIRC dampers pretty much draw the fangs out of nukes.  How 
> easy/hard would it be for PDFs to maintain damper coverage for an entire 
> world?  Could such coverage be projected from orbit by naval vessels?  If 
> so, the 3I could show up above some balkanized world with a nasty 
> squabble taking place and declare a "no-nukes" zone with a couple of 
> orbitting escorts.
I brought it up a little while ago with a friend who was over for face to 
face gaming.  His immediate reaction was "nuclear dampers".  He felt the 
same way I do about things being far too dispersed for MAD to make enough 
sense.  Well, actually his first reaction was "It's against the Imperial 
Code of War, nobody would ever get away with it" but then I explained my 
concern wasn't keeping order internally but grand strategy between nations 
at the level of interstellar empires.

I grabbed my trusty old (first edition, so no power points) Book 5 - High 
Guard and we looked up nuclear dampers.  First available at TL 12.  You 
have to get all the way from TL 6 or 7 to TL 12 without them, but still 
dealing nukes.  Repulsor bays come in at TL 10, and that will help a tiny 
bit.  Jump drives start at TL 9, so you have to get from 9 to 12 with the 
capability for interstellar delivery of nukes.  It would have been such a 
good answer too.  IIRC, either MT or second edition High Guard or maybe 
both did do some substantial revisions to TLs for weapons and 
screens.  Perhaps that will provide some support to the nuclear dampers 
theory.  But I don't think so.

The search continues, I guess.

--Laning



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 00:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 00:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEFOCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20406.005223.1e4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The weapon I'm trying to figure out is an equalizer for pedestrians.
> Anything that will actually stop or otherwise neutralize a moving vehicle
> that is about to violate a crosswalk will have a danger space that includes
> the pedestrian (like a LAW, M203, Panzerfaust, etc.) at typical engagement
> ranges.  Anything safe for the pedestrian will not actually stop the vehicle
> before impact -- the .44 magnum will shut down the engine, but the car will
> keep on rolling.  Many weapons will neutralize the driver, but again, the
> car will keep going.  It's a poser.

You need a personal force shield with the ability to isolate internal
and external inertial frames. Or else the ability to "lock" to bedrock
on impact.

I suspect it'd be "simpler" to do the former. But not by a lot.

Basicly, any momentum transfer to the volume within the field occurs
*uniformly*. So, since the forces are applied equal to all particles,
they don't have any apparent effect (much like it doesn't matter how
strong the gravity is *while* you are falling, just when you hit :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 01:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 01:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CE9C2B.34116%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20406.005748.6n2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/1/02 10:21 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>> 
>> I've read about EMP pipe bombs, they aren't all that difficult to
>> build, you need some wire, an explosive, and a moderate power
>> battery.  
>
> I have yet to be convinced that such things will work, and be at all
> effective.  Particularly as the  strength of burst will be inversely
> proportional to the to the square of the distance.  Has anyone actually seen
> a demonstration where this works?  It should be rather easy to test.

The effects *depend* on non-linear effects. And the strength at a
distance depends a lot on the orientation.

Also, remember, the effect is *not* due to the strength of the field
(well, not entirely). It's due to the sudden *change* in field strength
too. 

> Right now I'm ranking the EMP pipe bomb as likely as the mystical martial
> arts 'death touch'.

I wouldn't expect one to have any great range. But if you can hide it
in a brief case, 10 meters is *plenty*.

>> I've a few comments and questions here:
>> 
>> 1) How easy is it to shield a gauss or laster rifle?  Will this
>> shielding hold up to heavy field use?  Can such shielding be
>> overwhelmed by a powerful enough EMP?
>
> Gauss weapons won't need any complex and delicate circuitry if they're
> anything like railguns.  I don't expect them to be vulnerable to EMP anymore
> than a 1950s Chevy would be.

Yeah, I meant to comment on that myself.

"coilguns" will need some high speeds switchging circuitry. But
frankly, the power levels and timescales are such that EMP would be
minor compared to the fields inside the weapon every time it "cycled". 

"Railguns" don't have any circuitry more complicated than a light
switch. *NO* electronics in the weapon aside from any sighting gear.
And the magnetic fields the thing uses would make them have to be
mostly EMP prof anyway. 

EMP would affect them about as much as it'd affect a nail stuck to a
strong magnet. And for similar reasons. The *local* field would far
exceed the EMP.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 01:13:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 01:13:06 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017701795.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20406.010602.9U3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn writes:
>> on 4/1/02 2:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
>> > 
>> > Unfortunately, just about all weapon systems _will_ be shielded.  In
>> > fact, gauss weapons pretty much have to be shielded, or simply firing
>> > the thing will short out all of its electronics, not to mention other
>> > nearby electronics. 
>> 
>> What kind of EMP do railguns emit, anyway?
>
> Presumably, one strong, sharp pulse lasting roughly the length of time it 
> takes
> for a bullet to go the length of the barrel.  Not immediately inclined to
> figure out the total emitted energy, but I rather doubt that it's small.

It'd better be. Otherwise the gun is wasting energy emitting the noise.
The magnetic field will be constant. The electrical current flow is DC.
Though a rather sharp pulse, which may have a fair amount of ringing.

> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.

I have trouble picturing a coilgun as being *practical* in a man
portable size. Railguns are almost as bad, but at least you don't need
to switch all that power *repeatedly* and with precise timing dozens of
times per shot.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406025432.03968d20@pop.wizard.net>
References: <005f01c1dd29$f7b338c0$52200050@matt>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020406065801.009f48d0@mindspring.com>

At 02:57 AM 4/6/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Matt Bond sets the record straight:
>
>>The cause of the Darrian Collapse wasn't nuclear weapons, it was the
>>Maghiz... the after effects of an innocent science project to survey the
>>Primary Star of Darrian, that inadvertently caused it to undergo a Nova-like
>>hiccup...
>
>Thank you, sir.  I knew it was much more exotic than nuclear warfare.  And 
>I completely got wrong the angle of it being a war of any kind.  Yes, it 
>seems to me that the Maghiz thing left a lot of speculation about the 
>Grandfather or someone deciding not to let anyone go past TL 15.  If you 
>prefer the secret conspiracy view of things, that is.  Or it could have 
>been just one more example of mankind's hubris being too self destructive, 
>like Ikaros having the wax melt on his wings.

I think the Maghiz was just another example of the Law of Unintended 
Consequences.  Better known as Murphy's Law.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204061516.DME00009@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug writes
>I think the Maghiz was just another example of the Law of 
>Unintended Consequences.  Better known as Murphy's Law.
>

BTW, I went looking around the web, and found another library 
data site, which had a bit on the Maghiz and the project that 
caused it.

http://www.seemann.ms/library/

Hopefully the owner of that site is on the TML somewhere...
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Combat Armor & Battle Dress
Message-ID: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>

--part1_19d.46939d.29e06ca1_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Hi,
   While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I discovered 
that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game (Imperial 
Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of the different 
models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
   Could someone help me out?
   Thanks :)
  -Ken Murphy-

--part1_19d.46939d.29e06ca1_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I discovered that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of the different models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Could someone help me out?
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_19d.46939d.29e06ca1_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 07:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Apr  6 07:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>

From: laning <laning@wizard.net>

     "...looked up nuclear dampers.  First available at TL 12."

Sir,

     Well, that settles that theory.

     "You have to get all the way from TL 6 or 7 to TL 12 without them, but 
still dealing nukes.  Jump drives start at TL 9, so you have to get from 9 
to 12 with the capability for interstellar delivery of nukes."

     So until TL 12, MAD and geographical/astrographic dispersal are the 
trumps, usually.

     "It would have been such a good answer too.  IIRC, either MT or second 
edition High Guard or maybe both did do some substantial revisions to TLs 
for weapons and screens.  Perhaps that will provide some support to the 
nuclear dampers theory.  But I don't think so."

     The answer is a melange of MAD, dispersal, and dampers.  There are 
rarely single reasons for any given happenstance.
     I wonder, what if TL 12 is when dampers are small enough to allow them 
to be installed aboard ships?  Or the power requirements are finally 
"doable" in a hull?  Prior to TL 12, dampers could be massive, strategic 
systems that require multiple installations and oodles of generators.  At TL 
12, the technology gets miniaturized enough to be installed aboard ships, 
sort of like radar between the late 1930s and early 1940s.
     It's still a handwave, though.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 09:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20406.010602.9U3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 1:06 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.
> 
> I have trouble picturing a coilgun as being *practical* in a man
> portable size. Railguns are almost as bad, but at least you don't need
> to switch all that power *repeatedly* and with precise timing dozens of
> times per shot.

The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 09:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 09:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052324.g35NOjh06085@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <B8D46F07.37842%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/5/02 3:28 PM, Steven Hudson at shudson@lightspeed.ca wrote:

> 
> The K'kree seem to be the only major polity that believes in
> re-surfacing planets as a matter of policy. There's all sorts
> of amateurs that try and compete for the title, but mostly sanity
> (MAD) or cultural constraints interfere.
> 

I would expect that when it came to the K'kree, their opponents would adopt
the same attitude.  Something like the US policy on chemical weapons. "No
first use".  But if you use them, will give it right back and in spades.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 09:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 09:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn says:

[The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.]

Yes, and today, the power supply is much larger than can be carried.
We can get you a small battery made with an unobtanium core.

One problem that I see with a lot of sci-fi weapons is recoil. It's
a really nice idea to have a weapon that can fire a projectile at
4000 meters per second, but it's unlikely that we'll be able to
hold onto the weapon without a handwave generator.

In Traveller, I like to see weapons filling unique and obvious niches.

Gauss weapons are silent, and better at penetration than the ordinary 
slugthrower.  However, I feel that there should be a recoil penalty,
especially on full auto.  There are definitely recoil limits for 
humans (not just pain, but actually hitting something).

The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
from Book 4.  How about YTU?

In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a 
good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.

ObTrav: A Gauss weapon should be a better penetrator than a laser,
but the laser has no recoil.  I'm still trying to figure out the 
handwave that allows a plasma bolt to go more than a few centimeters
out of the barrel.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 11:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Seemann)
Date: Sat Apr  6 11:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E002330A27@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AA@mail.ahead.com>

Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:16:10 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

> BTW, I went looking around the web, and found another library 
> data site, which had a bit on the Maghiz and the project that 
> caused it.
> 
> http://www.seemann.ms/library/
> 
> Hopefully the owner of that site is on the TML somewhere...

I am, and BTW desperately trying to get time to do a major rewrite of
the site...

Did you want to ask me something?

Mark Seemann
mark@seemann.ms

"No matter how far you've come in the wrong direction - turn back!"
- Arabian proverb


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204061914.DML02410@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Mark Seemann" says
>
>I am, and BTW desperately trying to get time to do a major 
>rewrite of the site...
>
>Did you want to ask me something?
>

We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your 
site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which 
was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on 
the whole series of events?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 11:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr  6 11:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <B8D46F07.37842%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204052324.g35NOjh06085@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020406114851.009f8950@mindspring.com>

At 09:23 AM 4/6/02 -0800, you wrote:
>I would expect that when it came to the K'kree, their opponents would adopt
>the same attitude.  Something like the US policy on chemical weapons. "No
>first use".  But if you use them, will give it right back and in spades.

The actual policy is overwhelming response.  Hit is with *one* WMD, and we 
unload on you.  During the Persian Gulf war, the CIA found out that 
Saddam  was planning on using his chemical arsenal to slow down the units 
invading Kuwait. He was told, through neutral nations, that if he did that, 
every damn shack in Iraq would get a 30 kiloton kiss.

I imagine the Imperial policy towards the K'kree is similar..  "You go off 
on a single human world, and we will use you for Astroburger meat.  The Two 
Thousand Worlds will become the 2000 square feet, 'cause that is all your 
species will need.  What's worse, we'll let the Hivers in to play with you."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 12:01:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 12:01:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406145922.00cb7ee0@192.168.0.1>

At 12:41 PM 4/6/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Tod Glenn says:
[snip]
>The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
>from Book 4.  How about YTU?

I think people like Snubs because they have HEAP & HE ammo.


>In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a
>good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
>been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.

T4 has 'em.


----------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  "When you see
a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not
wait until he has struck to crush him."
--- Franklin D. Roosevelt
----------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 12:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Seemann)
Date: Sat Apr  6 12:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
In-Reply-To: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E002330A28@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com>

Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:14:38 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

> We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your 
> site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which 
> was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on 
> the whole series of events?

While I can't remember the sequence of event, my library data tells me
there were indeed two projects: The Abh and Udh projects.

These library entries were taken from the Classic Traveller Alien Module
8: Darrians, but I can't remember the rest of the story. However, if you
really want me to, I can go look it up.

Mark Seemann
mark@seemann.ms

"No matter how far you've come in the wrong direction - turn back!"
- Arabian proverb


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 13:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 13:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B8D4A39D.37862%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 9:41 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@comcast.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn says:
> 
> [The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.]
> 
> Yes, and today, the power supply is much larger than can be carried.
> We can get you a small battery made with an unobtanium core.

If one follows the trend in batteries, they are becoming smaller and lighter
for the same power, and thus by extrapolation, batteries of the same size
and weight are becoming more powerful.
> 
> One problem that I see with a lot of sci-fi weapons is recoil. It's
> a really nice idea to have a weapon that can fire a projectile at
> 4000 meters per second, but it's unlikely that we'll be able to
> hold onto the weapon without a handwave generator.

But while projectile energy is a function of the mass of the projectile and
velocity squared, recoil is more a function of momentum.  A small,
lightweight projectile of high velocity has less felt recoil than than a
slower, more massive projectile of the same energy. Plus, with gauss
weapons, there is no added effect of the escaping gasses to add to recoil.

In a conventional firearm free recoils is defined as:

RE= Mg *((MbVb+MpVp)/Mg)^2 in Joules

where:  Mg is the mass of the gun
        Vg is the mass of the bullet
        Mp is the mass of the propellant
        Vp is the velocity of the propellant.  Typically
        noted as a constant (1200 m/s)

Let look at a gauss weapon versus conventional weapon.  In this case we'll
examine a 7.62x51mm rifle versus a gauss version with the same velocity and
bullet weight.

7.62x51mm M1A rifle
        Mass:               4.17 kg
        Bullet Mass:        0.01069 kg
        Bullet Velocity:    807.72 m/s
        Propellant mass:    0.00279 kg

for a free recoil energy of 34.3 J (about 25 ft-lbs)

The gauss version of this weapon generated only 17.7 J of free recoil (only
13 ft-lbs)

The 7.62x51mm has 3593 J (2650 ft-lbs) of energy at the muzzle.  Note that
this is not the energy actually delivered to the target.  This can be
derived from Mach's equation of retardation id we assume non-expanding
(ball) ammunition.  The amount of velocity lost in transiting the target
will allow us to calculate the total energy transferred.

Now lets look at Book 4's Gauss rifle:

Gauss Rifle
        Mass:               3.5 kg
        Bullet Mass:        0.004 kg
        Bullet Velocity:    1500 m/s

For a free recoil of 10.2 J (7.5 ft-lbs)
Muzzle energy is 4500 J (3,300 ft-lbs)

even though the gauss rifle is 500 g less massive than the M1A almost 1000
joules more muzzle energy and one third the free recoil energy

As a note, compare this with the free recoil of the M16 with a mass of 3.2
kg.  The 3.56 g (55 gn) bullet at 1000 m/s (3300 f/s) generates 14.9 J (11
ft-lbs) of free recoil energy with 1800 J (1330 ft-lbs) of energy at the
muzzle.


> 
> In Traveller, I like to see weapons filling unique and obvious niches.
> 
> Gauss weapons are silent, and better at penetration than the ordinary
> slugthrower.  

But gauss weapons are not silent, at least not in atmosphere.  They break
the sound barrier, and ballistic crash is a very. large component of firearm
noise.  MM booboo'd on this one.

> However, I feel that there should be a recoil penalty,
> especially on full auto.  There are definitely recoil limits for
> humans (not just pain, but actually hitting something).
> 
> The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
> from Book 4.  How about YTU?

Rarely seen except in special circumstances.  The range is just too limited.
Also, the penetration is just too goo.  The penetration of a HEAP round is
directly proportional to its diameter. A 100mm diameter projectile is just
not going to have much of a 'jet', and not much material to form the
penetrator.  It's a simple matter of physics.
> 
> In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a
> good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
> been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.
> 
> ObTrav: A Gauss weapon should be a better penetrator than a laser,
> but the laser has no recoil.  I'm still trying to figure out the
> handwave that allows a plasma bolt to go more than a few centimeters
> out of the barrel.

See my note above.  The gauss rifle generates a mere 10 J of free recoil
energy 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 13:33:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr  6 13:33:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
References: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <001801c1ddb2$e0895ba0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Seemann" <mark@seemann.ms>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 9:42 PM
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs


> Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:14:38 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> wrote:
>
> > We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your
> > site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which
> > was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on
> > the whole series of events?
>
> While I can't remember the sequence of event, my library data tells me
> there were indeed two projects: The Abh and Udh projects.
>
> These library entries were taken from the Classic Traveller Alien Module
> 8: Darrians, but I can't remember the rest of the story. However, if you
> really want me to, I can go look it up.
>
> Mark Seemann
> mark@seemann.ms

As I recall, one project was going to use two interfering beams of some type
or radiation to probe the interior of the Star, and the other was to use a
probe with some kind of ablative heat shielding.

Both projects were being conducted semi-secretly and independently. That is
to say that neither team was particularly aware of the other project.

Both projects happened to reach their final stage at the same time, and each
performed its experiment simultaneously.

Unfortunately the intersecting beams caused a reaction with the trail of by
products from the probes ablating heat shielding, the result of which was a
stellar 'burp' of devastating proportions in the Darrian system. The effects
of the pulse continued out into space, reaching the surrounding Darrian
colonies at lightspeed a few years later. Despite the precautions that had
been taken  by the colonies in the intervening period the effects were still
very serious, as much of the technical and manufacturing base had been
located on Darrian itself. Some of the larger colonies survived, but the
ability to construct starships had been lost, and only a few jump capable sh
ips had been spared devastation. after a few years of trying to maintain
contact with each other they fell into a localised long night for about 800
years, before Mire (IIRC) achieved the sustainable technology to construct
its own starships and re-establish contact.

By this time the virgin territory of the Spinward Marches was now occupied
by the Sword Worlders and Zhodani.

Subsequent revelation that the Zhodani had been watching the Darrians in
secret for centuries (due to the Zhodani fears that the Maghiz was the
result of some Darrian Super-weapon) has lead to the Darrian distrust of the
Zhodani, and their allying with the Imperium in the Frontier Wars.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 13:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr  6 13:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020406172606.9E61827AC3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16tyB5-0001Pv-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

laning <laning@wizard.net> wrote:

> > > I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> > > survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of war.
> 
> I can't buy into that at all, John.  Sorry.  Wars seem no more
> omnipresent today than they were in classical times.  The only
> relationships I would draw are the motivation for vengeance that
> connects the survivors to a mass slaughter, and Malthusian effects of
> reducing population pressure by reducing population.  Two forces that
> relationships that seem in opposition to each other.  Even if you
> massacre _all_ your enemy, even the children below age six, you will
> put yourself high on the rest of the world's Enemies To Destroy list. 
> There will come the day you are on the losing side in a war, and
> genocide is not a precedent that you'd like to have around.

I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because 
humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill 
that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate 
thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in 
Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost 
any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something 
separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before. 
 
The three examples above are only those examples I know of with 
the highest death toll, tens of thousands were also been killed in 
Indonesia in the 1960s and in the ruins of Yugoslavia.  

Combat lethality may have gone down, but death tolls in conflicts 
have certainly gone *way* up.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 14:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 14:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn explains recoil in the gauss rifle
<snip>

Yes, it's not completely silent.  There's still the ballistic 
crack - but - it would be difficult to locate the firer, 
especially in an environment where any planar surfaces 
(treelines, building faces) were along the line of flight. 
People who are not familiar with the sound will not know what 
it is at all - most inexperienced people don't associate that 
sound with gunfire (I've taken people into the pits, and 
after the cracks whip by overhead, the guest usually 
says, "What's that sound?").

At such a light projectile, even at such a high velocity, I'm 
not sure that it's that effective a penetrator, unless it's 
really long in proportion to its width - and when they say 
it's 4mm, that's not that much more narrow than 7mm - or 
5.56mm.  Change it to something like a 2mm dart with a body 
40mm long - now that's something.

But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a 
miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no 
visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACENFCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kown:
>ObTrav: A Gauss weapon should be a better penetrator than a laser,
>but the laser has no recoil.  I'm still trying to figure out the
>handwave that allows a plasma bolt to go more than a few centimeters
>out of the barrel.

You forget.  It's a _high_tech_ plasma bolt.  :->

IMTU, laser weapons do minimal damage.  I just don't think they can 
transfer enough energy into their target during the very, very brief moment 
they touch their target.  Normally.  If the target is unmoving, you can do 
a lot.  I've been on the brink of drastically reducing the range of fusion 
and plasma weapons, too.  For reasons similar to your own.

I also reduce the damage on gauss weapons by a bit, because of the gauss 
weapons in equipment lists are smaller caliber than most gunpowder weapons 
in the same category.  A projectile is a projectile.  Whether it was made 
to go very fast by a gunpowder explosion or a magnetic acceleration doesn't 
make any difference, as long as it is going the same speed.

Tod Glenn has drawn my attention to the fact that there are probably 
profound differences between target ballistics with projectiles travelling 
faster than 1140 meters per second, and projectiles going slower.  I have 
been pondering whether or how to revise my house rules on gauss weapons 
accordingly.  Given the standard handwaves that the Traveller rules are 
based on, at least some personal gauss weapons could theoretically achieve 
those kinds of velocities.  But then you get into the recoil issue you 
already brought up.  As well as problems with the projectile breaking up if 
it strikes a raindrop or a leaf on its way to the intended target.

I think firearms will always have an important role in combat in the 
Traveller universe, even with the presence of laser, fusion, plasma, and 
gauss weapons.  Although gauss weapons could supplant firearms in most 
cases if they are designed to throw projectiles to the same spec as their 
gunpowder counterparts.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Combat Armor & Battle Dress
In-Reply-To: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406172440.0282cbb0@pop.wizard.net>

Ken Murphy wrote:
 >>>
>   While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I 
> discovered that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game 
> (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of the 
> different models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
>   Could someone help me out?
<<<
I have Imperial Encylcopedia but not Referee's Manual.  Maybe we could help 
each other replace our purchased-but-missing books with a photocopier?  My 
understanding is that Marc Miller sanctions that, because we did in fact 
pay to own those books.

Encyclopedia only seems to list generalized text descriptions of the two 
things.  Not that long, not of much use to somebody who already understands 
the concepts.

p 74 of Players Manual gives some armor values:
Combat Armor-11  armor value 8
Combat Armor-12  armor value 10
Combat Armor-14  armor value 18
Battle Dress-13  armor value 10
Battle Dress-14 armor value 18

IIRC, the 11,12, 13, and 14 represent the tech level that the particular 
model of armor becomes available.  Armor value of 8 roughly corresponds to 
a stone, brick, or starship interior wall.  AV 10 roughly corresponds to a 
concrete wall.  AV 18 is somewhere between a reinforced concrete wall and a 
heavy steel frame wall.  A starship bulkhead is 40 and hull is 
60.  Sandbags are 6.  I am just repeating these value equivalents, not 
necessarily agreeing with them.  :->

I have a vague memory of the reference you're talking about, it must be out 
there somewhere.  But the above is all I can find in MT.  :-<

It's possible my memory is from T4.  Their have some detailed descriptions 
of battle dress at least, at various tech levels.  Pretty decent work, 
really.  Hey, not _everything_ IG put out was regrettable!  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 2:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a
> miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no
> visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).
> 

What type of laser? What power range?  Are their any ionizing effects?
Certainly the laser makes noise when it hits the target.  Steam explosions
in tissue, the popping of superheated fat.

And ever looked at a later with LI gear?  Super obvious.  Like having a big
pointer going back to the firer.  And lasers are relatively easy to defeat,
or at least attenuate.  A few mils of highly reflective material sewn into
clothing, prismatic aerosols.  As mentioned in a previous post, lasers are
not good penetrators.  The problem is with the nature of lasers themselves.
The have to vaporize there way through materials.  But the vaporized
material itself can act as a hindrance to the laser.

Also, water (and by analogy tissue) is a great thermal sink. 55 calories to
raise 1 cc of water 1 degree centigrade, IIRC.

I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.

I would be particularly be interested in the amount of power required to
produce a lethal beam, and compare that to the energy required to drive a
gauss projectile at book 4 velocities.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: vehicle design
Message-ID: <3CAF83F0.FB931D1E@mail.cswnet.com>

I need a vehicle design for my starport/colony.

1.The vehicle is intended to be used for public transportation.

2. It is to fit into a circular tunnel, the diameter of which is
4 meters/4.376 yards. The vehicle must fit inside this.
Remember the math. Area of circle: 3.14*Radius squared

3. The tunnel runs for 10km/6.25miles, from the starport to the
main town.

4. The tunnel is sealed from the external environment. 

5. Would like to see something like the maglev's from 2300 or the 
train thingies from SPACE:1999.

6. Any design format/iteration is welcome.

7. If you give me a really good design, I'll name the tunnel after you.
:) :) :)

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406180955.0282f100@pop.wizard.net>

The inestimable though esteemed Mr. Whipsnade contributes:
>    The answer is a melange of MAD, dispersal, and dampers.  There are 
> rarely single reasons for any given happenstance.
>     I wonder, what if TL 12 is when dampers are small enough to allow 
> them to be installed aboard ships?  Or the power requirements are finally 
> "doable" in a hull?  Prior to TL 12, dampers could be massive, strategic 
> systems that require multiple installations and oodles of generators.  At 
> TL 12, the technology gets miniaturized enough to be installed aboard 
> ships, sort of like radar between the late 1930s and early 1940s.
>     It's still a handwave, though.
>
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Larsen

Though you present a reasonable approach, I only wish I were 
persuaded.  It's amusing when you think about it.  Each of us has different 
things in canon that we find objectionable.  Some are bothered by the 
evolutionary biology or the chemistry, others are bothered by plot holes, 
others again by problems with basic laws of physics or theoretical physical 
limits.  Yet we are each on the TML because of our genuine love for the 
game, and most of us either accept or cherish the main body of the 
work.  We all have different comfort levels over different things.  I am 
very comfortable with having thruster plates in as a handwave, yet bothered 
that laser weapons do "too much damage"?  LOL.  Descriptions of the 
Traveller time line are acceptable to some verbatim, regardless of any 
contradictions or loopholes.  It's just fiction, there's no point to trying 
to find deeper meaning.  I accept a lot of parts of it the same way, but am 
bothered by this particular thing and completely balk at 'the 
Rebellion'.  It is well and truly said:  YMMV.

Yeah, I was thinking about the possibility of nuclear dampers below TL 12 
just being bigger than the TL 12 ones that are in 100-ton ship's bays.  You 
might even be able to get that down to TL 9, when jump drives make their 
first appearance, who knows.  Though the very frequent references to 
threats of nuclear war or to past nuclear wars that vaguely affected lots 
of places yet seem to have specifically affected nowhere should mean that 
we'd see at least _one_ mention of dampers as strategic protection.  And we 
don't.  For any tech level.  And then we're told that the combatants in the 
Rebellion seem to be making liberal use of them and planets are getting 
hosed down.  If that wasn't feasible before, what has changed that makes it 
feasible now?  (Besides who is doing most of the writing of the books.  :-)

I'm stumped here.  I need something to say when I start my next Traveller 
game.  And did I mention one of my players has a doctorate from MIT on the 
subject of nuclear warfare?  It's _going_ to come up.  Guess I'll turn the 
tables and ask him to help come up with a rationalization before he can ask 
me for one.  It would help even more if he'd read anything besides the 
original three LBBs back in 1977.  I'll post here and let you all know what 
he contributes.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D4C656.3788B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 3:07 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> 
> Tod Glenn has drawn my attention to the fact that there are probably
> profound differences between target ballistics with projectiles travelling
> faster than 1140 meters per second, and projectiles going slower.

Actually, it's 1450 m/s.  An the differences in wounding are not
theoretical, they are proven.  I direct you to "Antipersonnel Weapons"
published by SIPRI (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute) which
has a very good section of the effects of hypervelocity (1450+ m/s)
projectiles.  There have also been a few writeups in past issues of the
"Journal of Wound Ballistics".  I'll look for the articles and get you a
cite.

> I have 
> been pondering whether or how to revise my house rules on gauss weapons
> accordingly.  Given the standard handwaves that the Traveller rules are
> based on, at least some personal gauss weapons could theoretically achieve
> those kinds of velocities.  But then you get into the recoil issue you
> already brought up.

See my earlier post. Gauss weapon have significantly less free recoil energy
than CPR guns.  Just using the example from my previous post.  If we take
two identical weapons (in the example, M1As), one CPR the other gauss, each
firing an identical bullet at identical velocities.

M1A Standard:   34 J of free recoil
M1A Gauss:      17.7 J of free recoil

The Traveller Book 4 gauss rifle fires a 4g 4mm projectile at 1500 m/s.  The
weapons masses 3.5 kg, thus we have a free recoil energy of only 10.2 J, 2/3
the recoil of the M16.  The M16 has 1800 J of muzzle energy compared with
the gauss rifle's 4500 J.

If the gauss rifle is a coil gun (as many have suggested, and the
description from book 4 seems to fit)  the projectile must be ferromagnetic.
Let's assume elemental iron to make it easy.  Iron has a density of 7.86
g/cc.  We know from 'canon' that the gauss round is 4mm in diameter and
masses 4 g.  That means a projectile that is 4cm long, a 1:10 aspect ratio.

Looking a Mach's equation, these rounds are going to decelerate quickly once
they hit flesh, and probably cause wounding that is way beyond anything
caused by a conventional firearm.

> As well as problems with the projectile breaking up if
> it strikes a raindrop or a leaf on its way to the intended target.

That's a function of bullet composition.  If we assume a monolithic
projectile of iron, I doubt we'd observe such effects.  The bullets where
this phenomenon is observers are copper jacketed lead bullets.
> 
> I think firearms will always have an important role in combat in the
> Traveller universe, even with the presence of laser, fusion, plasma, and
> gauss weapons.  Although gauss weapons could supplant firearms in most
> cases if they are designed to throw projectiles to the same spec as their
> gunpowder counterparts.
> 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAMENHCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn asks
[I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.]

See http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/docs/98-165.pdf
for calculations on how to do damage via vaporization (there is a note that
vaporization is probably not necessary for a kill).  This is for missiles,
but you could make some assumptions about a human (just use the heat of
vaporization for water).  The primary advantage on firing on a human seems
to be that you don't need a 1 meter wide beam.

I've seen an industrial laser penetrate a stack of layered fabric over two
meters thick in a split second.  It was being used to cut cloth to the
pattern desired.  Penetration seems to be a matter of spot size and
energy deposited.  I was told that the same laser would easily, and just
as rapidly, slice a human into two strangers with the same speed and
efficiency.

The optimum wavelength is largely a matter of what is the optimum
wavelength in the atmosphere, which might vary some by planet.  Here
on earth, the optimum wavelength seems to be 1.3 nm, which can be produced
either by the COIL (chlorine/oxygen/iodine) or DF overtone (two deuterium
flouride lasers tuned to create a single overtone).

In fact, it is now claimed by the Space Based Laser documentation, that
a satellite-based laser could be used to strike individual ground targets
as small as a man. They claim now that there would be virtually no loss
if they were to use the DF overtone laser. Keep in mind that the beam
diameter at that distance would be 1 meter, and the fluence would be
high enough to completely vaporize 3mm thickness of mild steel in a
few milliseconds.

They are making the assumption now that the enemy *will* try and make
the target reflective.  Most humans, unless armored, will make a much
more cooperative target for lasers operating in the 1.3nm region.

Yes, someone will see this beam using NVG and perhaps even thermal
sights.  But such weapons can also be used with a rotating mirror at
much lower power levels to rapidly and randomly cover an area with
high enough energy to permanently damage even passive optics like
a simple pair of binoculars, and to permanently blind any human unlucky
enough to be looking in the wrong direction.

Maybe we would all be reduced to blindly wandering about with Laning's
battle axe, looking for each other.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CAF897A.E39681FF@premier.net>


"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> 
> From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
> 
>      "...looked up nuclear dampers.  First available at TL 12."
> Sir,
> 
>      Well, that settles that theory.
> 
>      "You have to get all the way from TL 6 or 7 to TL 12 without them, but
> still dealing nukes.  Jump drives start at TL 9, so you have to get from 9
> to 12 with the capability for interstellar delivery of nukes."
> 
>      So until TL 12, MAD and geographical/astrographic dispersal are the
> trumps, usually.

Given that starship laser turrets are available at TL 7 (HG2, page 25,
they add a point-defense wild card to the deck.

It would seem that the authors of HG2 anticipated some aspects of
SDI.... ;-)

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 15:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406185112.00ab8e30@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn, after writing a fairly impressive summary of lasers as weapons, 
says:
>I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
>discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
>methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.
>
>I would be particularly be interested in the amount of power required to
>produce a lethal beam, and compare that to the energy required to drive a
>gauss projectile at book 4 velocities.

I second the motion.  And please consider the laser's value as a penetrator 
of armor?  The old timey steel kind, the contemporary kevlar kind, and 
whatever you feel is useful about the unobtainium kinds posited for higher 
tech levels.

Tod, your previous analysis of felt recoil vs muzzle energy, etc. Just 
found its way onto my hard drive.

Oh, I should mention that attempts to post to tml@travellercentral.com were 
giving me error 550 messages and bouncing a short while ago.  Roughly 1830 
eastern time.  Duration of problem seemed to be less than half an hour, so 
just a burp, I guess.  Possibly the mail server daemon was really busy at 
the time, I dunno.  Probably old news to you.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:02:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:02:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
In-Reply-To: <001801c1ddb2$e0895ba0$52200050@matt>
References: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406185801.00abbec0@pop.wizard.net>

Regarding what devastated Darrian, Matt Bond enlightens us:

>As I recall, one project was going to use two interfering beams of some type
>or radiation to probe the interior of the Star, and the other was to use a
>probe with some kind of ablative heat shielding.
>
>Both projects were being conducted semi-secretly and independently. That is
>to say that neither team was particularly aware of the other project.
>
>Both projects happened to reach their final stage at the same time, and each
>performed its experiment simultaneously.

If you're a player or referee even halfway inclined to make use of 
conspiracies, then this extreme coincidence should be enough to excite your 
interest.



><<<snip>>>
>Subsequent revelation that the Zhodani had been watching the Darrians in
>secret for centuries (due to the Zhodani fears that the Maghiz was the
>result of some Darrian Super-weapon) has lead to the Darrian distrust of the
>Zhodani, and their allying with the Imperium in the Frontier Wars.

Well, whether it was a conspiracy, an accident, or a weapons experiment, 
the Darrians do seem to end up knowing how to produce a Darrian 
SuperWeapon.  I like to think of it as the gods punishing Ikaros for 
forgetting his place.  Or Grandfather keeping precocious humans from 
becoming too troublesome (to other sophs in general?  to some project of 
Grandfather's?  to Grandfather himself?).  And I delight in stirring my 
players to worry about all these possibilities without knowing which is the 
truth.  Which doesn't make me an Evil Referee.  I'm hardly fiendishly 
clever enough for that.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:12:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:12:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0378F.26380.9082ED@localhost>

On 6 Apr 2002 at 15:11, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Also, water (and by analogy tissue) is a great thermal sink. 55 calories
> to raise 1 cc of water 1 degree centigrade, IIRC.

I think that's 1 calorie. However it's 4.2J to raise 1g of water 1 
degree Celsius. Then there's the .226 J/g to turn boiling water into 
steam, and then about 2 J/g to raise a gram of steam's temperature by 1 
degree. You'd be looking at about 500 J/g to turn flesh into not very 
hot (or high pressure) steam.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:13:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:13:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0378F.6868.90823C@localhost>

On 6 Apr 2002 at 6:59, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      A few you forgot to mention;
>      Kuzu - The Aslan's Second World War was nuclear, the Third one,
>      which 
> the arrival of "Pathfinder" prevented, was going to nuclear too.  Shame
> it didn't happen.
>      Asmodeus - A balkanized Zho world in the Marches had a nuclear
>      exchange 
> sometime in the 1090's.  Guess the Thought Police were all out getting
> doughnuts.
>      Unknown - IIRC, there's a balkanized world mentioned somewhere in
>      canon 
> that went nucelar.  The population there lived in domes and levels took
> quite a nose dive before the Marines could intervene.

How about the Ilelesh Revolt? Didn't the Imperium scrub the sector 
capital clean of life as an example to others?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C656.3788B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406191311.02844050@pop.wizard.net>

Wonderful.  Tod is doing a good job of convincing me of the superiority of 
gauss weapons to gunpowder weapons...just as my character in Tod's game is 
in an already terrifying combat situation--and the bad guys mostly use 
gauss weapons while our guys use mostly gunpowder.  Ruh roh.

This is on top of the various other combat advantages the bad guys have 
already established for themselves.  And I freely admit that our side could 
have done a better job of matching them in a lot of ways.  Part of our 
failure to do so is because we were so busy roleplaying instead of being 
munchkins.  :->

--Laning aka Krowaka


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 16:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat Apr  6 16:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <3CAF897A.E39681FF@premier.net>
References: <F239GXP9ww1WySvX5w0000038de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406192030.02845720@pop.wizard.net>

John Groth reminds us of another card on the table:

>Given that starship laser turrets are available at TL 7 (HG2, page 25,
>they add a point-defense wild card to the deck.
>
>It would seem that the authors of HG2 anticipated some aspects of
>SDI.... ;-)

Hm.  I was just about to proclaim laser-based missile defenses as the 
salvation of sophonts everywhere over the past centuries.  Regardless of 
real life opinions on the topic, that seems satisfying enough for Traveller 
purposes.  But there's still that nagging thing about the Rebellion being 
able to get away with nuclear bombardments when nobody previously 
could.  This should be good enough for most of my players, as they aren't 
familiar with Traveller to begin with and there is no Rebellion 
IMTU.  Practical problem solved at least for now.  Intellectual problem 
still a bit lingering.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 17:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr  6 17:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020407112641.A1980@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> I'm no expert on lasers, so I'd be happy if someone could chime in and
> discuss the use of the laser against human targets, particularly touching on
> methods of producing wounds, optimum wavelength, amount of power required.

The best I've seen (and calculated) is to produce a train of pulses
lasting a millisecond or so, with pulses a few tens of microseconds
apart.  The collimation requirements are pretty stringent thought; for
this application you want to be able to focus on a region just a
couple of millimetres across.  Each pulse need only have a few tens of
joules, and the pulse train as a whole needs a kJ or so to give
similar penetration to a 9mm pistol bullet.  With more energy, you can
obviously do more damage, relax the focus requirements, and/or get
better penetration.

Such a weapon would most certainly *not* be silent.  At the target the
'bang' of superheated vapour would be far louder than the
corresponding sound of a bullet impact; more like the firing of an
unsuppressed slugthrower.  The pulses themselves would also disturb
the air through which they pass, but this would be a more diffuse and
dificult to localise sound.

Wavelengths near visible light are best, since most other frequencies
are absorbed by the atmosphere more strongly.  At handgun ranges this
probably isn't a problem though.  I would suggest near-UV.  This also
diminishes the danger to the retinas of unintended targets from beam
scattering, since UV is absorbed by the cornea (I think).


> I would be particularly be interested in the amount of power required to
> produce a lethal beam, and compare that to the energy required to drive a
> gauss projectile at book 4 velocities.

Very similar.  Both look to be in the 5-10 kJ range for effective
antipersonnel use.  The laser would have slightly lower wounding
potential and worse armour penetration, but may need only energy and
has no recoil at all.  It would probably also be more adaptable to
various uses (e.g. longer-duration cutting or drilling).  The gauss
weapon would probably have better wounding potential and lower recoil,
but needs both physical ammunition and energy.  Maintenance may be
more of a problem than chemical slugthrowers in both cases, unless
technology is sufficiently advanced.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #385 - 4 msgs
References: <9ECFD3EEB014984E88EA305A6E69F4E001F1C1AB@mail.ahead.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020406185801.00abbec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <002901c1dde3$af25f6a0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "laning" <laning@wizard.net>
> Well, whether it was a conspiracy, an accident, or a weapons experiment,
> the Darrians do seem to end up knowing how to produce a Darrian
> SuperWeapon.

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately if you are on the other side...) the
devastation caused by the Maghiz destroyed all records of one of the
experiments (the interfering beams), so until the players discover the
necessary evidence of the second experiment in the adventure in the back of
Alien Module 8: Darrians, the Darrian Starkiller weapon is pure bluff. They
believed it was purely due to the probe, and tough that their failure was
due to imperfect records of the probes construction. They managed to
convince their neighbours through a rigged demonstration that they still had
the technology to induce a mini-nova. (I seem to recall that they used some
recovered Tech-G sensors to locate a star that was slightly unstable anyway
to do their demo on, that lesser sensors would think was stable).

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] pilot specs
In-Reply-To: <20020405.205600.-3247.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> What are the real life size minimum and maximum hight 
> requirements for a combat fighter pilot?

In general the minimums are set so that you can see over 
the dashboard, and the maximums are set so that your knees 
don't get cut-off when you use the bang-seat. 

What those measurements are depend on what combat aircraft
your force is flying. 

Frankie







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:32:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:32:56 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> war.

I don't see it making any change, as this unwillingness to
slaughter is actually pretty normal and has been throughout
history.

Not that _everybody_ has this unwllingness, but the vast majority
of people do, including most soldiers.

> People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.

Actually, no. That only happens against psychotic invaders who
you know will kill you if you surrender.

If you are fighting "normal" invaders, the majority of the people
don't fight at all, as they don't care who is in charge, one lord
is the same as another.

_Most_ peoples stop fighting when their armies have been defeated
or have surrendered, and most armies stop fighting when they
believe they cannot win.  They may not have been defeated at that
point.

Only fanatics, or people who have nothing to lose, such as those
who are guilty of war crimes so know they will be put to death,
keep fighting.

> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

And just as any other piece of propaganda, the descriptions in
the Old Testament were somewhat overblown.
It was common to ascribe such tactics to the barbarians of the
past, and the enemies of the present. If all the peoples and
towns that supposedly had been put to the sword actually were,
the population of the world would have taken much longer.

> It's barbaric, I know.

It's also extremely wasteful, and almost guarantees that you will
fail in the short term.

The "Thousand Year Reich", an organization that was oppressive
and actively treied to eliminate their enemiew, lasted less than
a couple of decades.

The Roman "Empire", which in the main did not go round trying to
destroy peoples, but was largely tolerant and inclusive, lasted
several centuries.  It finally fell because it became oppressive
and intolerant.

> But if you want to get the message across that Our
> Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you
> have to do.

To be an effective invader you do _not_ want to get across the
idea "We won and You lost", you want to get across the idea that
"We, including you, all Won, and the bad guys who used to rule
you lost"

> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.

This is probably outweighed by the loss of the planet as an
industrial base

Not to mention that the M.A.D doctrine is even more effective in
the stellar arena.

As soon as you do this without "just cause" you have made enemies
of every other polity in the galaxy (except perhaps the K'Kree
who are already in this position).

Also it is _very_ easy to set off a few nukes on your capital
world, even if it is far behind the frontlines, and your Navy
can't prevent it without isolating the capital from all trade,
which would have even _more_ effect than the nuke, as shown by
the aftermath of Sept 11th.

> Their ships might have to chase those missiles instead of
firing on
> the attackers.

Very unlikely, a few nukes on the planet are not worth losing the
battle over, and anyway, the planet is likely to have better
anti-missile defences than the ships.

> And how many nukes does it really take to lay
> waste to an advanced industrial society?

A huge number.

More than the the arsenals of China, the USA, and the USSR put
together when at maximum strength, in fact.

Unless you have a few "big" enough to crack the crust, and if you
have that sort of capabilty, _nobody_ is dsafe, and it's even
less likely anyone will use the capability in a normal
(non-xenophobe) war.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 19:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] pilot specs
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <20020405.205600.-3247.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020406224027.00cc5150@192.168.0.1>

At 03:41 PM 4/7/2002 +1200, Frank Pitt wrote:
>generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> > What are the real life size minimum and maximum hight
> > requirements for a combat fighter pilot?
>In general the minimums are set so that you can see over
>the dashboard, and the maximums are set so that your knees
>don't get cut-off when you use the bang-seat.

The Maximum mentioned is what kept my brother out of the Air Force.
He was *that close* to signing up till he was measured from hip to knee.
3/4" too long for the FB-111.

>What those measurements are depend on what combat aircraft
>your force is flying.

-----------------------------------------------------
"Freedom is man's capacity to take a hand in his own
development. It is our capacity to mold ourselves."
-- Rollo May  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
-----------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8CF6F3E.3427B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20406.200715.2D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Thanks for the links.  I tried a web search and couldn't find anything.  OK,
> I'm starting to believe.  So why isn't some Luddite terrorist building
> these?

Because *being* a Luddite, they aren't familar with the tech?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:44:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:44:11 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20406.204246.6R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/6/02 1:06 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> Also, gauss weapon != railgun.
>> 
>> I have trouble picturing a coilgun as being *practical* in a man
>> portable size. Railguns are almost as bad, but at least you don't need
>> to switch all that power *repeatedly* and with precise timing dozens of
>> times per shot.
>
> The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
> build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.

For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:46:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:46:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Combat Armor & Battle Dress
References: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <DAV17bZEHQQE9OFLkxt00005c25@hotmail.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Gentlebeing Murphy asks regarding weight and volume of Combat Armor and =
Battledress in MegaTraveller.=20


Armor                            TL            Volume            Weight  =
          Cr

Combat Armor 11            11                2.9                18       =
         20k
Combat Armor 12            12                1.8                10       =
         30k
Combat Armor 14            14                0.7                6        =
          60k
Battle Dress     13            13                3.8                26   =
             200k
Battle Dress     14            14                2.7                12   =
             350k
Cmbt Env Suit                  10                 6                 2.0  =
              1,000

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was also of extremely limited value.   =
...(T)he steers were incapable of understanding what was happening and =
articulating their concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. =
Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1>Gentlebeing Murphy asks regarding weight and volume =
of Combat=20
Armor and Battledress in MegaTraveller. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Armor&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
TL&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Volume&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Weight&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Cr</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Combat Armor 11&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2.9&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
18&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;20k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Combat Armor 12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
1.8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;30k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Combat Armor&nbsp;14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0.7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;60k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Battle =
Dress&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;13&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
13&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3.8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;26&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;200k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Battle =
Dress&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2.7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;350k</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Cmbt Env=20
Suit&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2.0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1,000</FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:texasredshift@hotmail.com">texasredshift@hotmail.com</A><B=
R><A=20
href=3D"mailto:billws@sysmatrix.net">billws@sysmatrix.net</A></FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The shooting of the steers was also of extremely =
limited=20
value.&nbsp;&nbsp; ...(T)he steers were incapable of understanding what =
was=20
happening and articulating their concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by =
Evan P.=20
Marshall and Edwin J.=20
Sanow</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 20:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr  6 20:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
References: <20406.204246.6R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c1ddf0$419a3800$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>

> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.

Or Ha-Un batteries (Batteries made from a mixture of Handwavium and
Unobtainium)...

<g>

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 21:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 21:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20406.204246.6R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D51C82.37945%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 8:42 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
>> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
>> build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.
> 
> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.

??

Why permanent magnets.  A rialgun doesn't use magnetic fields in the manner
of a coil gun.  We just have two parallel rails and the armature
(projectile).  We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
in the loop and acting on the armature.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 21:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 21:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <000b01c1ddf0$419a3800$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <B8D51CD6.37946%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 8:54 PM, Matthew Bond at mattgbond@ntlworld.com wrote:

>> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
>> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.
> 
> Or Ha-Un batteries (Batteries made from a mixture of Handwavium and
> Unobtainium)...

Assuming you are using batteries.  Perhaps a small, highly efficient
compulsator?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 21:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 21:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOIHJAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEPIGEAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Sound like a reprise of the old Golden Bridgers and the 
relentless pursuit practitioners.  Historically, leaders tended 
to publicly Golden Bridegers but the chronicles tend to show 
more then one slaughter of routed losers.  I would tend to think 
that term, (the day of battles), a routed side tended to get 
slaughtered afterwards you were pretty safe


OB Trav

Mercs would tend to be golden Bridgers.
The Imperium would tend to believe in relentless pursuit, u
until you acknowledge you are thumped

(1)  golden bridge = extend a golden bridge to a fleeing enemy  

jml

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of
> war.

I don't see it making any change, as this unwillingness to
slaughter is actually pretty normal and has been throughout
history.

Not that _everybody_ has this unwllingness, but the vast majority
of people do, including most soldiers.

> People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.

Actually, no. That only happens against psychotic invaders who
you know will kill you if you surrender.

If you are fighting "normal" invaders, the majority of the people
don't fight at all, as they don't care who is in charge, one lord
is the same as another.

_Most_ peoples stop fighting when their armies have been defeated
or have surrendered, and most armies stop fighting when they
believe they cannot win.  They may not have been defeated at that
point.

Only fanatics, or people who have nothing to lose, such as those
who are guilty of war crimes so know they will be put to death,
keep fighting.

> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).

And just as any other piece of propaganda, the descriptions in
the Old Testament were somewhat overblown.
It was common to ascribe such tactics to the barbarians of the
past, and the enemies of the present. If all the peoples and
towns that supposedly had been put to the sword actually were,
the population of the world would have taken much longer.

> It's barbaric, I know.

It's also extremely wasteful, and almost guarantees that you will
fail in the short term.

The "Thousand Year Reich", an organization that was oppressive
and actively treied to eliminate their enemiew, lasted less than
a couple of decades.

The Roman "Empire", which in the main did not go round trying to
destroy peoples, but was largely tolerant and inclusive, lasted
several centuries.  It finally fell because it became oppressive
and intolerant.

> But if you want to get the message across that Our
> Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you
> have to do.

To be an effective invader you do _not_ want to get across the
idea "We won and You lost", you want to get across the idea that
"We, including you, all Won, and the bad guys who used to rule
you lost"

> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.

This is probably outweighed by the loss of the planet as an
industrial base

Not to mention that the M.A.D doctrine is even more effective in
the stellar arena.

As soon as you do this without "just cause" you have made enemies
of every other polity in the galaxy (except perhaps the K'Kree
who are already in this position).

Also it is _very_ easy to set off a few nukes on your capital
world, even if it is far behind the frontlines, and your Navy
can't prevent it without isolating the capital from all trade,
which would have even _more_ effect than the nuke, as shown by
the aftermath of Sept 11th.

> Their ships might have to chase those missiles instead of
firing on
> the attackers.

Very unlikely, a few nukes on the planet are not worth losing the
battle over, and anyway, the planet is likely to have better
anti-missile defences than the ships.

> And how many nukes does it really take to lay
> waste to an advanced industrial society?

A huge number.

More than the the arsenals of China, the USA, and the USSR put
together when at maximum strength, in fact.

Unless you have a few "big" enough to crack the crust, and if you
have that sort of capabilty, _nobody_ is dsafe, and it's even
less likely anyone will use the capability in a normal
(non-xenophobe) war.

Frankie


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 22:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Apr  6 22:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 7 Apr 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <o8pvaugdbvlibj4ikplrj5seooqrgqoqv7@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - More internal changes, plus all of the pages have been updated to
   reflect our new contact address(es), at freelancetraveller.com. The old
   Yahoo! address will continue to work for a while, but you will get
   faster responses by writing to the new addresses. 

 - John T. Kwon brings us a design for the Virtus-class Solomani
   Infiltrator. Read it in The Shipyard. 

 - Joe Webb brings us another JTAS Adventure Contest winner. You can read
   Sex and the Single Vargr in Active Measures. 

 - Kate Thumann brings us the first Traveller "Choose-Your-Own-Adventure",
   Scout's Honor. You can download it from Active Measures. 

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the (working!) feedback form at
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/infocenter/feedbackform.html.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to visit our site
and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our existence
possible.



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 23:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Sat Apr  6 23:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4A39D.37862%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIEANDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

Tod,

RE= Mg *((MbVb+MpVp)/Mg)^2 in Joules

where:  Mg is the mass of the gun
        Vg is the mass of the bullet
        Mp is the mass of the propellant
        Vp is the velocity of the propellant.  Typically
        noted as a constant (1200 m/s)


What is Mb?  Vb? in this equation.

Jusitn


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 23:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Apr  6 23:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204070730.g377U0h29022@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
...
>> The K'kree seem to be the only major polity that believes in
>> re-surfacing planets as a matter of policy. There's all sorts
>> of amateurs that try and compete for the title, but mostly sanity
>> (MAD) or cultural constraints interfere.
>
>I would expect that when it came to the K'kree, their opponents would adopt
>the same attitude.  Something like the US policy on chemical weapons. "No
>first use".  But if you use them, will give it right back and in spades.

  Even the K'kree seem to have opted to be harshest when the suffering 
will be effectively monopolized by their vict^h^h opponents.

  ObTrav: never trust a herd animal? :>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr  6 23:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr  6 23:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIEANDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8D53600.37962%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/6/02 11:16 PM, Justin Bunnell at jbunnell@yahoo.com wrote:

> Tod,
> 
> RE= Mg *((MbVb+MpVp)/Mg)^2 in Joules
> 
> where:  Mg is the mass of the gun
> Vg is the mass of the bullet
> Mp is the mass of the propellant
> Vp is the velocity of the propellant.  Typically
> noted as a constant (1200 m/s)
> 
> 
> What is Mb?  Vb? in this equation.

Oops.  Mb= mass of bullet, Vb is velocity of bullet.

I should proofread more carefully.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 00:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 00:05:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Combat Armor & Battle Dress
References: <19d.46939d.29e06ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CAFFDF2.801EA808@virgin.net>

--------------85F01DDED7191BA32DD8BE91
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:

>   Hi,
>   While going through my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I
> discovered that I no longer have that 3rd book from the boxed game
> (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which gives the weight and volume of
> the different models of Combat Armor and Battle Dress.
>   Could someone help me out?
>   Thanks :)
>  -Ken Murphy-

If you are in the uk, i can help easily as i have a spare (well actually
it is my only one but i don't use it).  Otherwise it will take a few
days.

Simon


--------------85F01DDED7191BA32DD8BE91
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp;
Hi,</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp; While going through
my Traveller stuff (well, MT, actually), I discovered that I no longer
have that 3rd book from the boxed game (Imperial Encyclopedia maybe?) which
gives the weight and volume of the different models of Combat Armor and
Battle Dress.</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp; Could someone help
me out?</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp; Thanks :)</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>&nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</font></font></blockquote>

<p><br>If you are in the uk, i can help easily as i have a spare (well
actually it is my only one but i don't use it).&nbsp; Otherwise it will
take a few days.
<p>Simon
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--------------85F01DDED7191BA32DD8BE91--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 00:26:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 00:26:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>

laning wrote:

> <snippety, snip, snip>
> IMTU, laser weapons do minimal damage.
> <snippety, snip, snip>
> I also reduce the damage on gauss weapons by a bit, because of the gauss
> weapons in equipment lists are smaller caliber than most gunpowder weapons
> in the same category.  A projectile is a projectile.  Whether it was made
> to go very fast by a gunpowder explosion or a magnetic acceleration doesn't
> make any difference, as long as it is going the same speed.
>
> --Laning

Just to confirm things here, the Gauss/Rail/coilgun weapons DOES NOT fire the
projectile at similar speeds to 'gunpowder' weapons.  The last i heard (and
this was about 5+ years ago), current (at the time) railgun technology was
managing to accelerate a small plastic pellet (about 1" across IIRC) to over
22km/s (declared) and it was punching through 6" steel plating as if it were a
shaped charge.  We are now 5+ years on so that will have improved somewhat.
Now extrapolate on a few millennia and put the new improved kit in a portable
form and you have the Gauss Gun.

The drawback are that, due to the inherent speed of the projectile, you will
produce a sonic 'boom' (albeit a small one) in all but the 'rarest'
atmospheres.  Also, I would expect the extreme pressure waves to form minute
contrails (someone correct me here if i am floundering into strange
territories) and therefore make it relatively easy to detect where the shots
were originating from (but also acting like a form of tracer to the firer as
well).

Now, using the good ok EnergyK=0.5 x M x V x V, I would approximate that a 4g
needle from a gauss gun at 20 km/s would, theoretically, gave about 0.8 MJ of
kinetic energy, enough to knock anyone off their feet and punch a big hole in
everything apart from hulls and bulkheads (gearheads can you please confirm
both calculations and also what it should/shouldn't penetrate :-) )

A good example of this would be the railgun effects in 'Eraser' (a s**t film
apart from that bit though)

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 00:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 00:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more on the sop
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404102456.02e73308@urbin.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20020405224838.04445dd0@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <3CB00424.9F0823FB@virgin.net>

Richard Wilson wrote:

> At 04:59 PM 4/4/02, you wrote:
> >Mark Urbin wrote:
> > > I'm just recovering the shuddering attack.
> > > I just went through my first 2 hour session of ISO auditor
> > > training.
> >
> >I used to work a a company that tried for (and got) ISO 9000/9001
> >certification: it was easy-peasy!
> >
> >1) Have a documented procedure for everything
> >2) Make sure all staff know where the latest  versions  of  those
> >    documents are (ie. where on the PC server)
> >
> >The fact that we didn't actually follow those  procedures  (close
> >scrutiny would have revealed they were unworkable anyhow)  didn't
> >seem to matter.
> >
> >Its just a case of understanding the game.
> >
>
> Funny, the auditor who is checking the company I work for keeps wanting to
> see actual proof that we are following our procedures.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> Richard Wilson

As someone who has done ISO 9000 series to death (and back) it basically boils
down to:

1.    Say how you intend to meet the ISO requirements
2.    Prove that you are doing what you say in 1.

the accreditors are not concerned (neither should they be) with how you meet
the ISO requirement, only that you have a system in place to meet them and
that you use the system that you have said you will.

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 01:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 01:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 12:26 AM, Si at mr.fingle@virgin.net wrote:

> 
> Just to confirm things here, the Gauss/Rail/coilgun weapons DOES NOT fire the
> projectile at similar speeds to 'gunpowder' weapons.  The last i heard (and
> this was about 5+ years ago), current (at the time) railgun technology was
> managing to accelerate a small plastic pellet (about 1" across IIRC) to over
> 22km/s (declared) and it was punching through 6" steel plating as if it were a
> shaped charge.  We are now 5+ years on so that will have improved somewhat.
> Now extrapolate on a few millennia and put the new improved kit in a portable
> form and you have the Gauss Gun.

A railgun will fire the projectile at a velocity proportional to the current
applied.  You could build a railgun to fire a projectile at a lower velocity
of required.  The current military designs for railguns employ an aluminum
sabor to propel a standard tank gun penetrator at something like 2
km/second.  Not bad for a 15 lbs projectile.
> 
> The drawback are that, due to the inherent speed of the projectile, you will
> produce a sonic 'boom' (albeit a small one) in all but the 'rarest'
> atmospheres.  Also, I would expect the extreme pressure waves to form minute
> contrails (someone correct me here if i am floundering into strange
> territories) and therefore make it relatively easy to detect where the shots
> were originating from (but also acting like a form of tracer to the firer as
> well).

I recall the test you refer to.  The projectile actually created a contrail
of ionized gas much like a micrometeorite.
> 
> Now, using the good ok EnergyK=0.5 x M x V x V, I would approximate that a 4g
> needle from a gauss gun at 20 km/s would, theoretically, gave about 0.8 MJ of
> kinetic energy, enough to knock anyone off their feet and punch a big hole in
> everything apart from hulls and bulkheads (gearheads can you please confirm
> both calculations and also what it should/shouldn't penetrate :-) )


Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
20 km/sec.

ME is 0.8 MJ

Assume a weapon mass of 4.5 kg (slightly heavier than Book 4, about 10 lbs
or close enough).  That gives a free recoil energy of 1422 J.  A .458 win
mag elephant gun has a free recoil of 81 J, about the most anyone can
tolerate.  No one will be shooting this.

Let's reset the numbers with a target free recoil of 100 J  and see what we
can come up with.  Again assume a rifle massing 4.5 kg.  If we are still
using the 4mm, 4g projectile, we can tolerate a velocity of 4743 m/s.

That works out to be 45,000 J.  Pretty respectable. The mighty .458 win mag
only generates about 5400 J.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 04:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr  7 03:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <010301c1de1d$72819f80$a85d8690@computer>

> From: sneadj@mindspring.com
> I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because
> humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill
> that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate
> thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in
> Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost
> any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something
> separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before.

The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
million or more - far greater than the examples given above.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 05:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 04:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Time Travel
In-Reply-To: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16uAur-0007IU-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

I'm fairly certain this won't work, but if by some miracle it does we 
might get to see what the 57th century will *really* look like.

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/095/metro/Professor_s_time_tra
vel_idea_fires_up_the_imaginationP.shtml

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 05:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr  7 04:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How common is advanced life? ATTN JFZ
In-Reply-To: <3CA9FCDB.8060006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20406.231818.6W1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Jens Rydholm wrote:
>> My main aim isn't to recreate the original Traveller sequence. If I'd
>> wanted that, I'd just use it instead of First In  ;-)
>> 
>> However, I want roughly the same spread of intelligent races as in typical
>> SF, ie the most common environment for sentinent life to evolve in is on
>> Earthlike worlds.
>> 
>> I do find it interesting to speculate on how advanced life might look
>> under other conditions, but it gets tiring and harder to vary after a
>> while.
>> 
>> While we're at it, does anyone have any good source on how life might
>> function using radically different biochemistries?
>
> Issac Asimov did some stuff in his old Analog column, which has been 
> reprinted in various places.

Asimov never had a column in Analog. His column was in F&SF. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 05:38:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr  7 04:38:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <017301c1d9eb$3c03aba0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20406.232122.6w2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Well, odds are the lock won't work at all then.  Plus, who says you're
> going to
>> put a thumbprint lock on the _inside_ of the lock?
>
> Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to EVA while in space to do some
> kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking
> Mechanism. How do I get back in?

Take off your suit glove (the wrist will seal, same as if you'd
punctured it). Put your thumb on the reader. 

Once you get inside treat your hand for the swelling, edema, and
rupturing on minor surface blood vessels.

Esposure of your hand to vacuum is *painful*. But the amount of damage
is rather like that for frostbite. Short exposure won't do serious
damage.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 06:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Sun Apr  7 05:13:03 2002
Subject: Traveller Non-Lethals (was Re: [TML] Niches)
References: <20020407082906.CCBE427AFE@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0378D.B52CD94E@earthlink.net>

Mark Urbin posted:
> 
> At 12:41 PM 4/6/2002 -0500, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >Tod Glenn says:
> [snip]
> >The most popular weapon I've seen in a lot of campaigns is the snub pistol
> >from Book 4.  How about YTU?
> 
> I think people like Snubs because they have HEAP & HE ammo.
> 
> >In some places, I would almost rather have a nonlethal that had a
> >good effect.  I'm still thinking about laser dazzlers. There have
> >been sonic stunners in some "canon" adventures.
> 
> T4 has 'em.

So did CT. The publication was the adventure "Divine Intervention".

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 06:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 05:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8D51C82.37945%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAEENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod says:

[We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
in the loop and acting on the armature.]

ObTrav: Can the expert spot the vehicle with the railgun? 
Look for the longer, heavy duty barrel, perhaps with an
external truss.

A railgun would probably require more rigid construction
to resist this force, which would be considerable if the weapon
was designed for very high power (like a vehicle mounted weapon).

The barrel might be much more substantial than a typical 
slugthrower barrel, which has most of its reinforcement in the
breech area.  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Tod Glenn says

[
Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
20 km/sec.

ME is 0.8 MJ

Assume a weapon mass of 4.5 kg (slightly heavier than Book 4, about 10 lbs
or close enough).  That gives a free recoil energy of 1422 J.  A .458 win
mag elephant gun has a free recoil of 81 J, about the most anyone can
tolerate.  No one will be shooting this.

Let's reset the numbers with a target free recoil of 100 J  and see what we
can come up with.  Again assume a rifle massing 4.5 kg.  If we are still
using the 4mm, 4g projectile, we can tolerate a velocity of 4743 m/s.

That works out to be 45,000 J.  Pretty respectable. The mighty .458 win mag
only generates about 5400 J.
] endBlock

As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.  The first example you give is 10%
of that.  The second example has a free recoil somewhere above the elephant
gun.

ObTrav:  To be controllable in full auto, I would think we would want the
free recoil down in the M-16 range (which is dubious, if you've ever
tried to hit something at 100 yards on full auto with the M-16).  I've
also noticed that as soon as recoil levels go over, say, a light rifle
in .243, people begin to notice, and when they notice, they either flinch,
or are apprehensive about firing, especially the first round.

ObTrav2:  Tod, how do we arrive at various penetration and damage values for
CT,
MT, etc.?  FFS might be easy, and maybe we could work our way backwards.
Other game systems, such as PCCS, are extremely easy to back-calculate.

Now, I'm up there with Jeff Cooper in wondering why recoil is a problem,
but then again, I've never tried a .460 Weatherby.  Might make a flincher
out of me.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0F014.30539.36165A5@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 9:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> ObTrav:  To be controllable in full auto, I would think we would want
> the free recoil down in the M-16 range (which is dubious, if you've ever
> tried to hit something at 100 yards on full auto with the M-16).  I've
> also noticed that as soon as recoil levels go over, say, a light rifle
> in .243, people begin to notice, and when they notice, they either
> flinch, or are apprehensive about firing, especially the first round.

They do? Even my sisters didn't consider the SMLE to be excessive once 
they were adults. It was a bit heavy when we were 10 or 12, though. 
I've always thought that recoil isn't significant until you're dealing 
with light, light .270 Winchesters, light .30-06's and up.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <200204071328.DNX00358@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
<snip about learning to shoot when you're young>

Yes, I'm with you that recoil "should not" be a problem, 
especially if you learn to shoot when you're young.

But a lot of people in the US Army have never fired a weapon 
prior to joining up, and many of them are flinchers with an M-
16.  Scary.

I don't really have a problem in recoil, unless, as you say, 
the rifle is too light.  The heavier calibers, such as 
the .375 H&H, tend (to me at least) to feel like a giant 
shove, and the smaller high velocity calibers (the 7mm 
Remington Magnum being one) tend to have a sharper recoil 
spike.

ObTrav:  I really believe in the -5 DM for people who have no 
gun skill.  But -- it only takes a few afternoons of proper 
instuction to get rid of this.  I would assume that 
adventurers have taken the time to teach their fellow 
adventurers (someone with Instruction would be best).
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204071328.DNX00358@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0F5B7.22180.3776D4B@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 9:28, John T. Kwon wrote:

> But a lot of people in the US Army have never fired a weapon 
> prior to joining up, and many of them are flinchers with an M-
> 16.  Scary.

I didn't see that with the guys, but many of the women who joined up 
having never handled a real rifle had problems. Not so much flinching 
as poor and unsteady grip. I don't think some of them ever held the 
weapon steady enough for it to be called a flinch as such. To my great 
surprise everyone in my intake ultimately passed.

> ObTrav:  I really believe in the -5 DM for people who have no 
> gun skill.  But -- it only takes a few afternoons of proper 
> instuction to get rid of this.  I would assume that 
> adventurers have taken the time to teach their fellow 
> adventurers (someone with Instruction would be best).

I'd go along with that.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 07:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Apr  7 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <8bj0busac4ql4qivsl46eujfq619pq2mb4@4ax.com>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 00:26:03 -0800, "Mark Seemann" <mark@seemann.ms> wrote:

>Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:14:38 -0500 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>wrote:

>> We've been discussing the Maghriz, and my search found your 
>> site first.  There is reference to two projects, one of which 
>> was the cause of the flare.  Would you care to elaborate on 
>> the whole series of events?

>While I can't remember the sequence of event, my library data tells me
>there were indeed two projects: The Abh and Udh projects.

>These library entries were taken from the Classic Traveller Alien Module
>8: Darrians, but I can't remember the rest of the story. However, if you
>really want me to, I can go look it up.

The Abh Project involved sending a probe deep into the star; it was kept
cool enough to survive by venting tungsten.

The Udh project involved mapping the interior of the star using crossed
beams of (microwaves?).

The flare happened when the intersecting beams went through a region where
the Abh probe had vented tungsten; the resulting reaction propagated along
the 'tungsten trail' until it reached the star's surface, where it went
nasty.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <8bj0busac4ql4qivsl46eujfq619pq2mb4@4ax.com>
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407080316.009f24b0@mindspring.com>

At 09:48 AM 4/7/02 -0400, you wrote:
>The Udh project involved mapping the interior of the star using crossed
>beams of (microwaves?).

Mesons.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 09:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Sun Apr  7 08:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020407082905.1381E27AFD@mail.travellercentral.com> <010301c1de1d$72819f80$a85d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CB06657.8060405@gmx.net>

Alan Bradley wrote:

>>From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>>I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because
>>humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill
>>that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate
>>thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in
>>Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost
>>any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something
>>separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before.
>>
>
>The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
>Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
>million or more - far greater than the examples given above.
>
What about the ratio of 'civilian' deaths to 'military' deaths? Who gets 
the award for most civilian casulties compared to military casulties, 
not overall numbers?

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 10:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 09:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407111020.027e6d50@pop.wizard.net>

Si quotes me then says:
>laning wrote:
>
> > <snippety, snip, snip>
> > IMTU, laser weapons do minimal damage.
> > <snippety, snip, snip>
> > I also reduce the damage on gauss weapons by a bit, because of the gauss
> > weapons in equipment lists are smaller caliber than most gunpowder weapons
> > in the same category.  A projectile is a projectile.  Whether it was made
> > to go very fast by a gunpowder explosion or a magnetic acceleration doesn't
> > make any difference, as long as it is going the same speed.
> >
> > --Laning
>
>Just to confirm things here, the Gauss/Rail/coilgun weapons DOES NOT fire the
>projectile at similar speeds to 'gunpowder' weapons.  The last i heard (and
>this was about 5+ years ago), current (at the time) railgun technology was
>managing to accelerate a small plastic pellet (about 1" across IIRC) to over
>22km/s (declared) and it was punching through 6" steel plating as if it were a
>shaped charge.

Let's see if I can express myself better this time.  I am not trying to say 
that gauss weapons are only capable of matching gunpowder weapons 
performance.  I was trying to say that if you build a gauss weapon and a 
gunpowder weapon that each propel an identical projectile to an identical 
speed and spin, then the projectiles will both behave identically as they 
go down range.

There have been posts (primarily from Tod Glenn) since my post quoted above 
that let's say strongly suggest it would be unlikely that anyone would 
bother to build gauss weapons that way.  Instead, makers of gauss weapons 
would send a lighter, skinnier, longer projectile down range and at hugely 
greater velocities than anyone would bother to try to make a gunpowder 
weapon do even if they could make it do so.  I was trying originally to say 
that if gauss weapon makers are underperforming in a particular niche of 
gun type, all they have to do is come up with a gauss weapon that throws 
essentially the same slug at essentially the same speed and spin as the 
gunpowder weapons they are competing with.

Assuming that weapon/ammo prices of both are comparable, which they 
probably are not but this is so far out in the realm of science fiction 
that we really can't confidently predict what the prices would be.  So the 
prices are whatever you want to make them.

My reason for making the canonical gauss rifle do somewhat less damage than 
say a battle rifle firing standard 7.62 NATO is that I am not entirely 
convinced that making a lighter skinnier projectile go hugely faster and 
making it a lot longer is necessarily going to produce the wounding results 
predicted by the experts who are designing and testing these things.  I 
think a large dollop of conservatism is a healthy thing in such 
matters.  Let's see production models in real combat or hunting and used by 
regular people, and in uncontrolled conditions.

Please note that I am not _rejecting_ claims from gauss weapon 
proponents.  I am being slow to accept them.  I should also point out what 
I posted earlier:  I am reconsidering my house rule on gauss weapon damage, 
mostly because of things Tod Glenn has said.  I made those house rules many 
years ago and haven't been prompted to change them since.  But maybe I 
will, now.  They're just a science fiction item in a science fiction game, 
and I don't feel it's criminally stupid of me to make gauss weapons IMTU 
behave differently than gauss weapons in someone else's TU.  My players 
have been happy with my rules for twenty years, and generally the ones with 
the most knowledge of military firearms have been the happiest.  That tells 
me that my rules aren't just completely ludicrous.  If my version of gauss 
weapons bothers you, then maybe you will find some relief to know that I 
wholeheartedly agree about those magic snub pistols not being able to 
penetrate armor as well as they canonically do.  IMTU, they don't.  You can 
have a HEAP round in your snub pistol, and it may improve it's penetration 
in many circumstances.  But it will still penetrate more poorly than a HEAP 
round from a standard autopistol.  My usual snub pistol description is 
roughly the .25 auto "lady's gun".

If you're curious about what I would change my house rules to say on gauss 
weapons, here's what I am thinking about maybe doing.  Or I may decide not 
to since it's been fun to play with the rules I'm used to and it's just a 
game.  I'm thinking about crunching the numbers with the formulae helpfully 
provided by Tod Glenn using canonical gauss weapon designs and probably a 
couple or three other designs of my own.  Translate the results back into 
Traveller combat stats.  Work through each of the ammo types I believe 
would be useful and decide what differences to implement for a projectile 
that is much longer, proportionally than comparable gunpowder bullets.  I'm 
guessing that some ammo types will be more expensive and others 
cheaper.  And HEAP may be less effective because higher velocities and 
probably faster twists and smaller diameters can be counterproductive for 
that type of ammo, but perhaps the longer projectile will help.  I am also 
thinking about making the gauss weapon itself a lot more expensive.  Or 
not.  I can think of reasonable arguments both ways.  And making gauss 
weapons more fragile than gunpowder weapons.  Or again, perhaps not.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 10:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Apr  7 09:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>

From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>

     "The Abh Project involved sending a probe deep into the star; it was 
kept cool enough to survive by venting tungsten."

     "The Udh project involved mapping the interior of the star using 
crossed beams of (microwaves?)."


Mr. Zeitlin,

     Intersecting meson beams being used as some sort of active sensor 
system.  The beams also need to intersect at a "shallow", or obtuse, angle 
with each other.  The beams in the case of Tanis system were projected from 
two widely seperated locations the system's planetoid belt.
     This adds some complexity to any deploymeny of the Star Trigger.  The 
obtuse angle of intersection required for the meson beams means that two 
projectors at near opposite "sides" of a star must be used.
Two ships would then be a minimum; one to release the probe and project a 
beam, the other to project the second beam.  Naturally, the vessels would 
have to be in communication with each other to coordinate the meson beam 
aiming point.  How quickly the tungsten cooled probe, which is only used to 
"seed" the star with that material, can be inserted into the star is 
unknown, as is how much tungsten needs to be vented.
     IIRC, the effects aren't seen for many hours and, presumably, the meson 
beams need to operated for that entire length of time.
     All of this makes the Star Trigger a rather finicky device.  Actual 
deployment of the weapon would require a large, sustained effort on the 
Confederation's part and the use of many vessels.  For example, the vessels 
projecting the two meson beams would have to do so from beyond the star's 
jump limit, otherwise the mission would be a suicidal one.  That suggests 
that the vessels would need to be very large and very specialized to carry 
and operate the (spinal mounted?) meson beam equipment.  Whether the 
projection equipment could be switched between a weapons role and a Star 
Trigger role is unknown.  The Star Trigger vessels may have to be convoyed 
and protected by significant numbers of warships during any deployment.
     This may be part of the reason why the Sword Worlds haven't been on the 
recieving end of one yet.  The devastation that such a strike would also 
inflict on both Imperial and Confederation systems may also be part of the 
answer.
     <<< SPOILER ALERT >>>














     The current Darrian Star Trigger does not work.  The adventure in CT's 
AM 8, the Darrians, has the PCs being hired to perform a multi-world search 
for archival information regarding the two scientific projects that 
triggered the original Maghiz.  If, IYTU, this mission fails or the 
reason(s) for it is/are not suspected, the Star Trigger is little more than 
an extremely effective bogeyman.
     As a strategic deterrent, the Star Trigger works because BOTH parties, 
the Darrians and their enemies, believe it does.  Zho agents probing Star 
Trigger personnel will learn that those personnel believe that the Trigger 
works and thus "confirm" it's existence.
     One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star 
Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was 
faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <B8D55047.3798B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon says:
>ObTrav2:  Tod, how do we arrive at various penetration and damage values for
>CT,
>MT, etc.?  FFS might be easy, and maybe we could work our way backwards.
>Other game systems, such as PCCS, are extremely easy to back-calculate.

I was going to actually do some work on my own to find the requisite 
formulae, but that is guaranteed to take a lot longer, I'm sure.  It 
wouldn't be surprising if Tod can recite them from memory.  :->

>Now, I'm up there with Jeff Cooper in wondering why recoil is a problem,
>but then again, I've never tried a .460 Weatherby.  Might make a flincher
>out of me.

Recoil is a problem.  As my right eyebrow can testify.  Every time I'd go 
to the rifle range, the flange on the carrying handle of the M-16A1 would 
kick into my eyebrow.  Never took more than a dozen rounds for the eyebrow 
to be bleeding.  But it didn't stop me from shooting about 238 to 242 out 
of 250 on a consistent basis.  Not competition material, but just shy of 
it.  I got to play with the M-16A2 once and got to qualify with it one time 
before I was discharged.  The butt stock is three-eighths of an inch 
longer, and that helped with eye relief a little.  I did still bleed, but 
it took probably 30 rounds to get me bleeding, and the bruising and 
bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but 
at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier 
to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always 
wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.

A lot of weapons are awkward in the first few rounds of full auto, but can 
be brought back onto target if you continue firing a long or very long 
burst.  Every BAR gunner I've ever talked to said it's very controllable 
and accurate with that technique, for instance.  And a couple of people 
have told me they could hip fire the 5.56 gatling gun accurately that way 
(see the movie 'Predator' for a very fictional example).  The phrase I keep 
hearing from people who've relied on this technique is "you just ride it".

There's a difference between recoil and felt recoil.  One of the main 
things that can be done to reduce felt recoil is change the design of the 
rifle stock from having curves intended to fit your body better to being a 
straight "in line" stock, like the M-16 and most assault rifles and battle 
rifles.  It distributes the forces from the recoil better.

In other words, there are a lot of things that can be done to control or 
manage recoil.  And to some extent, troops can be trained or can train 
themselves to suppress or forget the flinch response.  (Myself as an 
example, above.)  "Flinching is for fairies," is probably how my old friend 
would sum that up.  But I wouldn't expect something with _felt_ recoil 
comparable to a .458 Winchester Magnum to be something you could put on 
general issue to troops, it's just too much for most of them, especially 
when you think about them firing it often hundreds of times per day instead 
of just a couple of times like a big game hunter.  Tod's high performance 
gauss weapon in his previous example was chosen for being at the upper 
limit of what is practical.  For humans.  One might suppose Aslan could 
handle more.  And other races with more radically different designs might 
be more capable of handling much greater.  Just as I expect Vargr can't 
handle as much as humans and many other races even less than that.  Droyne, 
anybody?

By the way, they call it a carrying handle but don't _ever_ carry it that 
way unless you want everyone in the area who outranks you jumping up and 
down and going crazy on you.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <200204071732.DOF00615@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
<snip about weapons, and then a mention of the snub pistol>

I thought that the snub pistol was, like the accelerator 
rifle, something like the Gyrojet of old.

I've been thinking that like Tod says, the diameter of the 
round is too small to have any actual HEAP (HEAT) jet 
effect.  A long time ago, the snub pistol IMTO became an 
over/under pistol firing a rocket round.  The diameter is 
25mm (very impressive if you're looking down the wrong end), 
and the round is essentially a small grenade, not unlike the 
OICW round.  Designed to minimize fragments, except very 
small shaped charge, rather like an HEDP round without the 
extra fragments.  Still, given the backblast, you don't want 
to fire it without a faceshield (which is why users are 
generally in a vacc suit, combat armor, or some such).  Made 
specifically for zero-g combat, and to penetrate suits at 
shipboard ranges.

ObTrav:  There was a great effort in the Phoenix Command 
combat system, in the High Tech supplement to design weapons 
specifically for shipboard use.  These weapons were 
purposefully designed to limit penetration - there was even a 
standard maximum penetration depth in equipment that was 
allowed, so that shipboard equipment that was vital could be 
built with this standoff in mind.  Think about what would 
happen if there was a circular firing squad in Traveller on 
the typical merchant ship bridge - even if we're only using 
shotguns and the occasional laser carbine.  What weapons 
might we consider (including non-lethals) if we're going to 
be able to board - and subsequently use - a ship?

Me, I'm willing to try the sticky foam dispenser.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407111020.027e6d50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5D1E5.379BD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 9:19 AM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

Lanning, I'm getting a bit worried when I see my name appearing in so many
of your posts.  I am not the gauss weapon prophet.

> 
> There have been posts (primarily from Tod Glenn) since my post quoted above
> that let's say strongly suggest it would be unlikely that anyone would
> bother to build gauss weapons that way.

Note that I did a comparison of a gauss and non-gauss versions of the same
rifle.  The rifle in question was the M1A (semi version of the M-14) in
7.62x51mm.  The only difference in performance is that a gauss weapon will
have less recoil firing the same bullet at the same velocity.  This is
solely because there is no expelled propellant by byproducts contributing to
recoil.

[snip]

 
> Please note that I am not _rejecting_ claims from gauss weapon
> proponents.  I am being slow to accept them.  I should also point out what
> I posted earlier:  I am reconsidering my house rule on gauss weapon damage,
> mostly because of things Tod Glenn has said.  I made those house rules many
> years ago and haven't been prompted to change them since.  But maybe I
> will, now.  They're just a science fiction item in a science fiction game,
> and I don't feel it's criminally stupid of me to make gauss weapons IMTU
> behave differently than gauss weapons in someone else's TU.  My players
> have been happy with my rules for twenty years, and generally the ones with
> the most knowledge of military firearms have been the happiest.  That tells
> me that my rules aren't just completely ludicrous.  If my version of gauss
> weapons bothers you, then maybe you will find some relief to know that I
> wholeheartedly agree about those magic snub pistols not being able to
> penetrate armor as well as they canonically do.  IMTU, they don't.  You can
> have a HEAP round in your snub pistol, and it may improve it's penetration
> in many circumstances.  But it will still penetrate more poorly than a HEAP
> round from a standard autopistol.  My usual snub pistol description is
> roughly the .25 auto "lady's gun".

Just bear in mind that HEAP round have to travel slowly and can't be spun or
they won't work.  If you look at the velocities of modern AT missiles,
you'll note that they're very low, and for a reason.  The warhead needs time
to form the penetrator jet.  it's unlikely that snub weapons are going to
have stand-off noses, so velocity will have to be low.  Spinning the
projectile disperses the jet, so that's out too.
> 
> If you're curious about what I would change my house rules to say on gauss
> weapons, here's what I am thinking about maybe doing.  Or I may decide not
> to since it's been fun to play with the rules I'm used to and it's just a
> game.  I'm thinking about crunching the numbers with the formulae helpfully
> provided by Tod Glenn using canonical gauss weapon designs and probably a
> couple or three other designs of my own.  Translate the results back into
> Traveller combat stats.  Work through each of the ammo types I believe
> would be useful and decide what differences to implement for a projectile
> that is much longer, proportionally than comparable gunpowder bullets.  I'm
> guessing that some ammo types will be more expensive and others
> cheaper.  And HEAP may be less effective because higher velocities and
> probably faster twists and smaller diameters can be counterproductive for
> that type of ammo, but perhaps the longer projectile will help.  I am also
> thinking about making the gauss weapon itself a lot more expensive.  Or
> not.  I can think of reasonable arguments both ways.  And making gauss
> weapons more fragile than gunpowder weapons.  Or again, perhaps not.


See above.  HEAP is unusable at high velocities and high rates of spin. A
few other things to consider:  A coil gun requires a ferromagnetic
projectile.  No lead or other material.  If it's a railgun, the armature
(projectile) just has to be conductive.  At hypervelocity, there is little
to be gained using special projectiles.  The canonical description of the
gauss round as a hollow point with an armor-piercing core id far more
complicated that necessary. The example used previously is more than
adequately lethal.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 11:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 10:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAEENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5D411.379C1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 5:54 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@comcast.net wrote:

> ObTrav: Can the expert spot the vehicle with the railgun?
> Look for the longer, heavy duty barrel, perhaps with an
> external truss.
> 
> A railgun would probably require more rigid construction
> to resist this force, which would be considerable if the weapon
> was designed for very high power (like a vehicle mounted weapon).
> 
> The barrel might be much more substantial than a typical
> slugthrower barrel, which has most of its reinforcement in the
> breech area.  

I remember some photos of the railguns built at the University of Texas for
the Army FMBT project.  They look pretty much identical to conventional
barrels, except for the square bore opening.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5D942.379C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 6:04 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@comcast.net wrote:

> ObTrav2:  Tod, how do we arrive at various penetration and damage values for
> CT,
> MT, etc.?  FFS might be easy, and maybe we could work our way backwards.
> Other game systems, such as PCCS, are extremely easy to back-calculate.

I have copies of both FFS and FFS2.  AFAICT, CT figures are just arbitrary.

FFS2 uses SQRT(ME)/10.5 to calculate damage.  I've never liked determining
damage bases solely on muzzle energy.  Instead, I use my own formula where
damage is bases on actual energy transferred to the target.

I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.  The base human target
is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.  We take the
initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the
remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.  From this we
can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.  We use this energy
to calculate damage.

In the case of things like conventional handguns, there are lots of
published sources with total ballistic gelatin penetrations.  Knowing the
density of this material, we can back calculate the retardation and energy
transferred.

This systems gives a measure of 'actual damage'  and we don't have to relay
on then 3D rules and 'lost energy due to 'shoot through'.

> 
> Now, I'm up there with Jeff Cooper in wondering why recoil is a problem,
> but then again, I've never tried a .460 Weatherby.  Might make a flincher
> out of me.

I shoot my .458 win mag Whitworth Express rifle all the time.  Preferred
loading is 500gn hard cast bullet with 72 gn 4895.  I'm not a big guy, but
if find this load 'stimulation' to shoot.  I've never really been bothered
by recoil.  Most people who shoot this do it only once.  I will say a tight
hold on the rifle is essential.  I probably have done my shoulder any good.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 10:18 AM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Recoil is a problem.  As my right eyebrow can testify.  Every time I'd go
> to the rifle range, the flange on the carrying handle of the M-16A1 would
> kick into my eyebrow.  Never took more than a dozen rounds for the eyebrow
> to be bleeding.  But it didn't stop me from shooting about 238 to 242 out
> of 250 on a consistent basis.

You've got talent.  With the old M16A1, I always put the tip on my nose on
the charging handle to make sure I had exactly the same cheek weld.  I'd
often shoot the M16 from my chin or groin to demonstrate it's lack of
recoil.

> bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but
> at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier
> to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always
> wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.

Try shooting one full auto.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAKENOCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3CB08DED.97126F82@virgin.net>

--------------8640A99E3980EE50F0202E80
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
>
> [snip]
> Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
> 20 km/sec.
>
>
> As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
> APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.  The first example you give is 10%
> of that.  The second example has a free recoil somewhere above the elephant
> gun.

Don't disagree there.  But I was talking about a small infantry weapon, not a
vehicle/free standing anti-armour weapon

Si

--------------8640A99E3980EE50F0202E80
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
"John T. Kwon" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Tod Glenn says
<p>[snip]
<br>Let's crank the numbers.&nbsp; Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile
at
<br>20 km/sec.
<br>&nbsp;
<p>As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
<br>APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.&nbsp; The first example you give
is 10%
<br>of that.&nbsp; The second example has a free recoil somewhere above
the elephant
<br>gun.</blockquote>
Don't disagree there.&nbsp; But I <u>was</u> talking about a small infantry
weapon, not a vehicle/free standing anti-armour weapon
<p>Si</html>

--------------8640A99E3980EE50F0202E80--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
References: <B8D46BFD.37840%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020406175253.0283bad0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020407111020.027e6d50@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB08FDE.F6F24BCE@virgin.net>

laning wrote:

> Si quotes me then says:
> >laning wrote:
> >
> > > Let's see if I can express myself better this time.

[huge snip]

Yep.  I have no problem with anything you say.  You did however, have a concern
with the damage from a thin-body penetrator compared (as well as you can) with a
'standard' round and i think I might be able to help there.  One thing about
hypervelocity (and hence hyper energy as it is the velocity squared that more than
compensates for the greatly reduced mass) penetrators doing damage is that the
target area (IIRC) behaves as if it were a fluid, IRRESPECTIVE of what it is made
of (depending of course upon the energy of the penetrator).

I am sure someone will correct me (in the politest possible terms) if i am wrong.

;-)

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 12:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 11:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB08DED.97126F82@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <B8D5DE82.379D4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 11:20 AM, Si at mr.fingle@virgin.net wrote:

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
Tod Glenn says 

[snip] 
Let's crank the numbers.  Assume a rifle that fires a 4mm 4g projectile at
20 km/sec. 
 

As a handy reference point, consider that the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore
APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9 MJ.  The first example you give is 10%
of that.  The second example has a free recoil somewhere above the elephant
gun.
Don't disagree there.  But I was talking about a small infantry weapon, not
a vehicle/free standing anti-armour weapon

A weapon with a 4 gm projectile being fired at 20 km/s is not a small
infantry weapon.  The recoil is obscene.  I'd say an upper limit on free
recoil should be no more than 50 J, with 25 J being more realistic.

Si 


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 13:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 12:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
Message-ID: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

	Okay, so I'm considering writing up my own shipbuilding rules ("Yeah,
yeah, kid, you and everybody else - take a number and wait in line."),
and there were a couple of factors that I haven't seen (or have missed)
in the various ships rules in different editions of Traveller:

	Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 'workstations',
but it seems to me that most ships (at least ones that carry passengers)
would require some sort of galley for food preperation.  Has anyone seen
or worked up rules for the minimum size of a ship's galley, based on the
number of crew and passengers carried?

	Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
on the number of ship's crew and other factors?


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."





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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 14:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun Apr  7 13:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1de72$5c0c6a00$2f7de40c@loki>

Both have always been outside the rules proper though some systems have
made galleys/stores something one could add if they desired.

I remember a lot of debate about the topic once upon a time. The general
conclusion--abhorred by some--was that the stateroom figure subsumed the
common spaces required to support them.

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 14:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 13:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>

--part1_30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 07/04/02 19:10:37 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


> I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.  The base human target
> is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.  We take the
> initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the
> remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.  From this we
> can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.  We use this energy
> to calculate damage.
> 

Isn't 30cm a little thick? 18cm - 20cm is the normal figure I see quoted.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 07/04/02 19:10:37 GMT Daylight Time, webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.&nbsp; The base human target<BR>
is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.&nbsp; We take the<BR>
initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the<BR>
remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.&nbsp; From this we<BR>
can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.&nbsp; We use this energy<BR>
to calculate damage.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Isn't 30cm a little thick? 18cm - 20cm is the normal figure I see quoted.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8D60220.379F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 1:58 PM, CHam628781@aol.com at CHam628781@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 07/04/02 19:10:37 GMT Daylight Time,
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


I derive this value starting with a few assumptions.  The base human target
is described as a monolithic structure of tissue 30 cm thick.  We take the
initial velocity, and using Mach's equation for retardation, calculate the
remaining velocity after the projectile transits this media.  From this we
can easily calculate the amount of energy transferred.  We use this energy
to calculate damage.


Isn't 30cm a little thick? 18cm - 20cm is the normal figure I see quoted.

Charles


I measured the thickness of a few friends and came up with about 12" from
front to back for an average chest thickness, or 30 cm.  YMMV.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches - correction.
In-Reply-To: <B8D5D942.379C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8D60286.379FA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 11:08 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

I just looked over my calculations and noted that I forgot to divide by 2
when calculating energy. (i.e. e= mv^2/2).  Please note the error.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407154204.033249d0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn, replying to my rifle range scores with the M-16A1:
>You've got talent.  With the old M16A1, I always put the tip on my nose on
>the charging handle to make sure I had exactly the same cheek weld.  I'd
>often shoot the M16 from my chin or groin to demonstrate it's lack of
>recoil.

Thanks, that's encouraging to hear.  And I used the exact same technique 
with my nose on the charging handle to more precisely get the same cheek 
weld.  One of my buddies in boot camp may have done permanent damage to his 
arm by getting too tight a loop sling all day at the range.  He shot well, 
ne'ertheless.  Chin or groin?  The recoil I recall is more than enough to 
discourage me from trying that one.  It was popular for the marksmanship 
instructors and coaches to tell the troops that, "The M-16 fires a .223 
calibre bullet.  That's the same as a .22.  You aren't going to be afraid 
of a .22 are you?"  This was more useful as propaganda than actual 
fact.  Most of the Americans recruited into today's military have no prior 
experience with firearms of any kind so this might work.  They at least 
have heard enough to know that a .22 is a pretty wimpy little thing.


> > bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but
> > at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier
> > to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always
> > wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.
>
>Try shooting one full auto.

I'd love to!  My curiosity will never be satisfied til I've tried out all 
these weapons that I use in gaming.  And who knows, maybe there'll be the 
chance at the big annual WW2 gathering in Reading, Pennsylvania this 
June.  Sort of like a Ren Faire for WW2 enthusiasts, reenactors, costumers 
who like that period, and everyone else.  It includes a three-day 
reenactment of the Battle of the Bulge.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407172540.00aa2c20@pop.wizard.net>

> > bleeding were much less than with the A1.  The M1 has a lot more kick, but
> > at least it didn't try to cut my eyebrow.  In fact it was all around easier
> > to manage.  Except for making your shoulder sore after a while.  Always
> > wanted to try the M-14 but never had a chance.
>
>Try shooting one full auto.

As long as I'm at it, I'd be very interested in shooting the Italian 
BM-59  (I think it's 59), which was essentially the M-14 with some 
improvements.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DE82.379D4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB08DED.97126F82@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407172827.00acfec0@pop.wizard.net>

>
>A weapon with a 4 gm projectile being fired at 20 km/s is not a small
>infantry weapon.  The recoil is obscene.  I'd say an upper limit on free
>recoil should be no more than 50 J, with 25 J being more realistic.

Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread, mentioning the 
ability of various Traveller races to cope with recoil, I should have also 
mentioned battle dress.  That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more 
recoil.  But how much?

-Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F33B1HQroJCIoo8oEoL000062ea@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "How about the Ilelesh Revolt? Didn't the Imperium scrub the sector
capital clean of life as an example to others?"


Mr. Boleyn,

     Thanks, I forgot about that one.
     The Imperium evacuated the population from Ilelish's tropical regions 
and "scrubbed" the "equatorial regions free from life."
     I'd assume (a shocking habit) that the people involved were simply 
moved to the planet's temperate zones rather than off world.  Having the 
remaining population living next door to the lesson being "taught" would 
fulfill the Imperium's requirements nicely.
     The IN then sterilized the equatorial zone with a bombardment of 
enhanced radiation warheads (neutron bombs).  This would allow them to kill 
off everything without triggering a "nuclear winter" of sorts.  They may 
have followed up the bombardment with liberal use of large meson gun spinal 
mounts to "pitchfork" the terrain.
     Ilelish's equatorial zone must have looked like a baked and barren 
jumble of craters, tells, and fissures.  New Mordor anyone?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
Message-ID: <200204072135.DON00704@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning asks
>
>Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread, 
>mentioning the ability of various Traveller races to cope 
>with recoil, I should have also mentioned battle dress.  
>That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more recoil.  But 
>how much?
>

Good question.  I've always wondered about this, because if 
you could carry large weapons and handle high recoil, you 
would have a semi-auto rifle that fired high velocity 20mm 
(not low velocity 20mm like the OICW).

20mm californium rounds, that is.  The one part of Striker I 
really liked.  Hit someone in battledress and watch the 
little mushroom cloud.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 15:55:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 14:55:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB168FD.22000.23BF80@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 11:15, Tod Glenn wrote:

> You've got talent.  With the old M16A1, I always put the tip on my nose
> on the charging handle to make sure I had exactly the same cheek weld. 
> I'd often shoot the M16 from my chin or groin to demonstrate it's lack
> of recoil.

My preferred method of supporting the M16A1 was to have my right hand 
(I'm a lefty) open and simply rest the forend on my palm. I found the 
rifle would bounce and then recover to the same point of aim all by 
itself, which made getting a good  sight picture for following shots 
quick and easy. Don't try this with the AUG - you'll lose it and 
probably get the optic sight banged into your eyebrow. It may be 
heavier but it's rather butt heavy so it jumps quite a bit more than 
the M16A1.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D60220.379F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 14:03, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I measured the thickness of a few friends and came up with about 12"
> from front to back for an average chest thickness, or 30 cm.  YMMV.

Do you give out less damage for hits in thinner places, or do you just 
assume a poor damage roll reflects this? And wouldn't the chest tend to 
be less dense than other parts of the body due to the 'air-filled' 
lungs?

Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth 
for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and 
for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females 
it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing. 
Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how 
old the data is.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407180357.0331dc40@pop.wizard.net>

Perry says he's developing shipbuilding rules:
>         Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 
> 'workstations',
>but it seems to me that most ships (at least ones that carry passengers)
>would require some sort of galley for food preperation.  Has anyone seen
>or worked up rules for the minimum size of a ship's galley, based on the
>number of crew and passengers carried?

Nothing I'm aware of.  And you make a very good point.  Perhaps finding Web 
sites or actual books on kitchen design is the best thing for 
that.  Especially restaurant kitchens.

We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including ironing.  Every 
service a hotel provides, basically.

>         Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
>amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
>other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
>that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
>rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
>on the number of ship's crew and other factors?

There are rules in all or most versions of Traveller for baggage and cargo 
allowances for passengers.  I assume baggage goes in their stateroom and 
cargo is containerized and placed in the cargo hold.  Ship's lockers are 
certainly recommended, and usually appear in published deck plans and 
privately designed ones.  But that doesn't leave pantry space, linen space, 
etc.  You might want to find a textbook on hotel planning, and look at 
military field manuals and technical manuals for logistics planning.  And 
surely the real life sailors have some knowledge about this.

In fact maybe both your questions and all related questions can be answered 
using real world naval architecture references.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEODCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Just finished reading a hardcopy of AK wounds in Vietnam.
A medical summary report on "Da Nang lung" which was 
pulmonary edema brought on by unregulated overuse of 
intravenous fluid replacement (without regard to electrolyte
balance).  Death was the result, usually two to three days
after successful repair operations.

The point I nearly missed is that most rifle wounds in the
prone are plunging fire which enters the shoulder area,
and failing deflection on the shoulder blade, penetrates in
a downward diagonal towards the pelvis.  This caused a
lot of damage, which, if it missed kidneys and major
blood vessels, was not immediately fatal.  It did
necessitate a lot of repair, and the lack of knowledge
in the 1960s about fluid replacement resulted in death.

The distance from the shoulder blade to the hip socket,
taken at a diagonal, is a considerable distance.  Most AK
rounds evidently stopped after traveling this far in the
body. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407180357.0331dc40@pop.wizard.net>
References: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407151942.0248eec0@mail.verizon.net>

>We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including 
>ironing.  Every service a hotel provides, basically.

Even hookers?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB168FD.22000.23BF80@localhost>
References: <B8D5DAE7.379C8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020407122409.027e2010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407181218.033aa1f0@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert:
>My preferred method of supporting the M16A1 was to have my right hand
>(I'm a lefty) open and simply rest the forend on my palm. I found the
>rifle would bounce and then recover to the same point of aim all by
>itself, which made getting a good  sight picture for following shots
>quick and easy. Don't try this with the AUG - you'll lose it and
>probably get the optic sight banged into your eyebrow. It may be
>heavier but it's rather butt heavy so it jumps quite a bit more than
>the M16A1.

Yes.  You want your rifle sling stretched nice and tight, partly so that 
you can wedge your foreward hand into the narrow angle between the taut 
sling and the ...argh how can I have _forgotten_ the proper 
nomenclature!  Just shoot me now.

Anyway, with your hand tightly wedged in, and a fairly stable triangle of 
tension between that forward hand, its elbow nicely resting on the ground 
or your knee, and the opposite shoulder, you should go right back to the 
same sight picture pretty quickly and naturally.

Firing in the "offhand position" was always the hardest for me.  Prone, 
kneeling, sitting, or anything else you can do to brace against something 
immovable (like the ground or a wall or a tree) makes a huge, huge 
difference.  Firing with nothing in particular to help you hold the thing 
steady is tough.  Standing, "rapid" fire, is tricky.  I started out just 
doing it through sheer concentration and did okay.  I then experimented 
with figure eight and other similar techniques when I heard about 
them.  Which were good for improving my score a little but seemed to have 
very little practical application on the battlefield.  I think I would have 
been great at trench warfare.  I don't know about patrolling, though.  Even 
someone who doesn't anticipate or flinch is going to have a tough time 
aiming at and hitting anything if everybody is running/walking around.

For referees with little or no experience shooting, please keep in mind the 
importance of firing from a braced position (prone is probably the most 
ideal) and also the importance of having many seconds to aim at an unmoving 
target.  Or if it's moving, then moving very steadily and predictably is 
almost as good as immobile.  Also, untrained or insufficiently trained 
personnel have a strong tendency to anticipate the recoil by actually 
raising the front of the weapon themselves as they squeeze the trigger.

I suspect anticipation is the single greatest cause of close-range pistol 
combats that result in nobody being hit by a bullet.  It happens all the 
time.  Anticipation, fear, adrenaline, inability to concentrate well enough 
to remember to try to use even the most elementary and easy principles of 
marksmanship.  The more I learn about how many reasons there are for people 
not hitting their opponent in combat, the more respect I develop for Alvin 
York.  And the more important I think it is to deal with your fear ahead of 
time, so you can you put it out of your mind during combat.

--Laning
"Fear is the mind killer."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
References: <B8D60220.379F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <30.24ddcd0f.29e20ced@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407183334.027f11c0@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert:
>Do you give out less damage for hits in thinner places, or do you just
>assume a poor damage roll reflects this? And wouldn't the chest tend to
>be less dense than other parts of the body due to the 'air-filled'
>lungs?
>
>Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth
>for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and
>for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females
>it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing.
>Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how
>old the data is.

Reporter:  "How can you shoot children and teenagers like that, Corporal?"
Corporal:  "Easy.  You use a lighter load."

-Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEODCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407183737.028bbdd0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon:
>The distance from the shoulder blade to the hip socket,
>taken at a diagonal, is a considerable distance.  Most AK
>rounds evidently stopped after traveling this far in the
>body.

Useful to keep in mind when shooting at K'Kree or the like.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEODCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB173E1.15599.4E49DB@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 18:15, John T. Kwon wrote:

> The distance from the shoulder blade to the hip socket,
> taken at a diagonal, is a considerable distance.  Most AK
> rounds evidently stopped after traveling this far in the
> body. 

IME a 7.62x39mm round when fired from an SKS, which has a longer barrel 
than an AK-47, at a goat from a fairly short range (maybe 20 yards) 
will travel through its entire length (in this case approximately 2 
feet) and stop inside the skin without exiting. That would be about the 
same distance, allowing for the elasticity of the goat's skin. The goat 
died effectively instantly because the bullet passed through its heart 
and the major vessels on top of it.

Just another data point.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 16:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 15:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020407181218.033aa1f0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CB168FD.22000.23BF80@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB17502.746.52B49D@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 18:32, laning wrote:

> For referees with little or no experience shooting, please keep in mind
> the importance of firing from a braced position (prone is probably the
> most ideal) and also the importance of having many seconds to aim at an
> unmoving target.  Or if it's moving, then moving very steadily and
> predictably is almost as good as immobile.

But if they're ducking and weaving and bolting from cover to cover in 
an unpredicable manner you can pretty much forget more than the most 
basic aiming. In these cases I recommend a machinegun.

Also followup shots from a trained shooter are much faster than the 
first shot, as you've already done most of the aiming for the first 
shot - all you're doing for the later shots is correcting for the 
effects of recoil.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB17502.746.52B49D@localhost>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOECGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Rupert Boleyn says
[But if they're ducking and weaving and bolting from cover to cover in 
an unpredicable manner you can pretty much forget more than the most 
basic aiming. In these cases I recommend a machinegun.]

At ranges up to about thirty yards, using a pump-action paintball
gun with crude post sights, I was able to hit people who were running,
dodging, popping their heads up over cover intermittently...

That's not full auto, nor is it a high velocity weapon.

No problem.

The running people don't dodge nearly as much as they think.  This is
more of a factor where time of flight of the round is significant.  Figure
a tenth of a second for every hundred yards of flight, and you can see
that the dodge is really something that has to be anticipated rather 
than seen.  Below "tenth of a second" range, dodging is relatively 
ineffective, and tracking a running target is largely a matter of practice.
I had an instructor who claimed to kill VC bikers on 1-beer bets - that is,
he would use an M-14, and if he got them on the first round, he got a beer.
Some of his friends from that time laughed, because they remember him
*always* getting his beer.

Oddly, I do better on moving targets if I'm standing.

People who peek out from behind cover only get to do it once with me.
What's even more funny is that most of the people I've hit in 
paintball like this probably saw the one I put right over their
head to make sure of where the next one was going. 

ObTrav:  Your enemy will use the terrain around you to spot the
fall of his fire, and will adjust accordingly.  If you stay in the
same spot, and peek out repeatedly, you're going to get nailed.  They
may even resort to tricks to get you to look twice.  There are many
anecdotes about people being killed when they "just look".

ObTrav: Shooting at a moving target is a matter of practice if the
target moves in a straight line, regardless of velocity. The exception
comes when the target is "uncertain" as in the next ObTrav.

ObTrav: Dodging effectiveness is the result of "movement uncertainty".
The best explanation of this is that after you release the round,
the target has time to move.  For a target at 500 yards, this can be
nearly half a second -- unless you're using a laser rifle.  Imagine
trying to anticipate whether or not a moving man will stop, bend down,
turn or not nearly 1/2 second into the future.  So you put a lot of 
rounds into his general vicinity with a machinegun.  They say that 
the real sniper is the man who can anticipate this movement. The only
combat system that I've seen that models this is PCCS.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
Message-ID: <OF0BD69FC0.8B0C14DC-ONCA256B94.00752218@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

I haven't seen "GDWGAMES" around for a while.

I know Loren was having access problems - does anyone know if that is 
still the case?

Failing that, perhaps you could select one of the following:
        1.      On holidays;
        2.      Attempting to retrieve gear from his fabled lock-up on the 
other side of the US;
        3.      Snowed under (and as he's in Texas, you _know_ I mean this 
as an analogy for workload! ;-);
        4.      Banned from 'Net access by the Illuminati;
        5.      Stuck in a box in Warehouse 23 (maybe with some Zhodani 
infiltrators, cf. Challenge 60 or thereabouts);
        6.      Shipped out on a _Donosev_ (along with Stuart Ferris, 
didn't he just get his Surveyor's Cert.?);
        7.      All of the above;
        8.      None of the above [insert your version of events here].

Que?

<sigh> It must be Monday.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
Message-ID: <200204072341.DOR00933@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I keep wondering about those passenger prices.  It doesn't 
make any sense.  If I fly from Washington, DC to Newark, NJ, 
it's cheaper than flying from Washington, DC to Los Angeles, 
CA.

There is also a hub system in the US, which rewards you for 
transferring in places like Cincinnati and Atlanta, but I'll 
leave that out.

So, we've got two merchant ships.  One is Jump-1, and goes to 
and from a nearby star.  The other is Jump-5, and goes to 
another star 5 parsecs away.  Theoretically, if there's a 
Jump-1 route, you could take the Jump-1 ship to get to the 
Jump-5 destination, but it would take five tickets to get 
there.  Now, if I'm a Jump-5 ship, and I'm going 5 parsecs, 
the next fastest ship (a Jump-4 perhaps) can get you there 
for two tickets.  So what should I charge you?  I'm betting 
that I could charge more than the price of a single ticket, 
and you would still take my ship because it's less and you 
get there a week ahead of time.

Has anyone hashed out what ticket prices really should be?
Or cargo transport, for that matter.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOECGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <3CB17502.746.52B49D@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB18225.32194.860812@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 19:09, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn says
> [But if they're ducking and weaving and bolting from cover to cover in
> an unpredicable manner you can pretty much forget more than the most
> basic aiming. In these cases I recommend a machinegun.]
> 
> At ranges up to about thirty yards, using a pump-action paintball
> gun with crude post sights, I was able to hit people who were running,
> dodging, popping their heads up over cover intermittently...
> 
> That's not full auto, nor is it a high velocity weapon.
> 
> No problem.

That's like using a shipboard laser at sub-light second ranges though - 
they don't have time to move out of the way. Besides at that range 
doing much the same thing I didn't use the sights most of the time, but 
just pointed the gun at the victim - it was faster and just as (in) 
accurate.
 
> The running people don't dodge nearly as much as they think.

That's probably because running and dodging are generally incompatible.

> Oddly, I do better on moving targets if I'm standing.

I'm not surprised - it's easier to get a smooth motion and a good 
follow-through.
 
> People who peek out from behind cover only get to do it once with me.
> What's even more funny is that most of the people I've hit in paintball
> like this probably saw the one I put right over their head to make sure
> of where the next one was going. 

People who peek from behind cover more than once deserve what they get, 
IMO. So do people who come to a firefight without backup and buddies.

> ObTrav: Dodging effectiveness is the result of "movement uncertainty".
> The best explanation of this is that after you release the round, the
> target has time to move.  For a target at 500 yards, this can be nearly
> half a second -- unless you're using a laser rifle.  Imagine trying to
> anticipate whether or not a moving man will stop, bend down, turn or not
> nearly 1/2 second into the future.  So you put a lot of rounds into his
> general vicinity with a machinegun.  They say that the real sniper is
> the man who can anticipate this movement. The only combat system that
> I've seen that models this is PCCS.

IIRC you needed the advanced expansion for this.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 17:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 16:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020407234850.57151.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
If that retinal scanner makes the crew sit through
three or four rescans before it lets them in, or
mistakes them for a terrorist a couple times a week,
expect the retinal scanner to be bypassed before the
ship comes out of its first jump.
END QUOTE

Thats what fire axes are for!

HAL:Come on Dave be reasonable! Put the axe down!
Dave, Dave! NOOOOOOOO...0).^%^$&9&##5.

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 18:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 17:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorta kinda 'A new MTU" long
Message-ID: <20020408000859.81953.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
People who strap on a PGMP-15 to go to the
'fresher annoy me,  IMTU they'll have to make
do with a shotgun.
END QUOTE

Well if nasty things happen to you every time you go
to the fresher you get paranoid! In my old group
(non-trav) we had a particularly nasty Ref, it got to
the point where my characters refused to go any where
with out two other armed characters! And I still died
alot! Though I survived longer than most. The greatest
thing ever was all the munchkins we had in the group
they where very good for cannon fodder ;) After a
while it got quite hard to walk anywhere due to the
amount of gear I was carrying. 

Me:All right essential equipment only, 3 LAW's check,
powered battle armour check, heavy machine gun check,
2000 rounds check, 12 white phosporous grenades check,
12 frag grenades check, semi-auto shotgun check, 200
rounds solid check, 200 rounds flechette check,
satelite phone check, 12mm pistol check, 100 rounds
12mm check, 20kg C4 check, 2 litres holy water check
(can never be to careful), 6 customised throwing
penguins check. <To other PC's> Okay Im going to the
bathroom now. If you here me scream or Im not back in
15 minutes call in an airstrike.

;)

James (Oh no, not Cthulhu again!) Ramsay

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 18:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 17:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
Message-ID: <95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9@aol.com>

--part1_95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Last time I spoke to him (just a couple of days ago, actually) he had just
acquired a new computer for home use and was in the process of getting
set up on it. I imagine we'll see GDWGAMES online again before too much
longer.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Last time I spoke to him (just a couple of days ago, actually) he had just
<BR>acquired a new computer for home use and was in the process of getting
<BR>set up on it. I imagine we'll see GDWGAMES online again before too much
<BR>longer.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_95.1a8e7d8a.29e239b9_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 18:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr  7 17:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
References: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CB0E12F.6A9B3511@premier.net>


knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> 
>         Okay, so I'm considering writing up my own shipbuilding rules ("Yeah,
> yeah, kid, you and everybody else - take a number and wait in line."),
> and there were a couple of factors that I haven't seen (or have missed)
> in the various ships rules in different editions of Traveller:
> 
>         Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 'workstations',
> but it seems to me that most ships (at least ones that carry passengers)
> would require some sort of galley for food preperation.  Has anyone seen
> or worked up rules for the minimum size of a ship's galley, based on the
> number of crew and passengers carried?

FF&S2 describes two types of galleys for food preparation: Ordinary and
Full.  An Ordinary galley requires .2 m^3 per person served, with a
minimum size of 4 m^3.  Meager through Good rations can be competently
prepared in an Ordinary galley (1 cook per 40 sophonts).  A Full galley
requires .3 m^3 per person served, with a minimum size of 12 m^3. 
Preparation of Excellent meals requires a Full galley and a cook with
Steward 3+ or Cook 2+ (1 cook per 20 sophonts if preparing Excellent
meals; 1 cook per 40 sophonts otherwise).  Food storage is discussed in
Tables 211 and 212; volume required for a given number of sophont-weeks
of rations depends on food quality and TL.

Larger AuricTech designs tend to have sufficient Full galleys to support
a full complement of crew and passengers, along with an equal capacity
in Ordinary galleys.  When such ships are operating with a standard
complement, the Ordinary galleys are generally used as "snack bars," and
are attached to facilities such as crew lounges or the Combat
Information Center; if a ship is packed to double occupancy, the
Ordinary galleys provide the required "overflow" food preparation
capacity to serve the additional occupants.
> 
>         Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
> amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
> other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
> that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
> rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
> on the number of ship's crew and other factors?

Again, FF&S2 discusses ship's lockers, though in less detail.  Page 15
states that the volume required is "designer's choice," with suggested
values of .5 m^3 per 1,000 m^3 of ship or per crew member.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
civilians.  It has little or no military application,
contrary to popular mythos.
END QUOTE

True. But......

They don't like it up 'em mister mainwaring, they
don't like it up 'em ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:06:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:06:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020407190105.2914E27A15@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c1de9a$066819a0$e35e8690@computer>

> From: Robert Houghton
> What about the ratio of 'civilian' deaths to 'military' deaths? Who gets
> the award for most civilian casulties compared to military casulties,
> not overall numbers?

Hmm.  Well, if you find an example where there were *no* military
casualties, that ratio will give you a division by zero error.  Try the PNG
intervention in Vanuatu in 1980 for an example of this - the *only* casualty
was a civilian.

Of the wars I listed (WWII, Taiping Rebellion, and WWI), the civilian
casualties were huge in the first two, and *relatively* small in the latter.

Another interesting mass-death situation is the Stalinist forced
collectivizations in the early 30s.  This was essentially a civil war,
although militarily it was one sided.  It was a product of pure
incompetence - industry had been neglected, so the cities couldn't afford to
buy food from the peasants - result:  starvation, forcible requisitioning
and massacres.

China has had a few "interesting" times.  The decades before 1949 saw almost
continuous civil wars, foreign invasions, famines, epidemics, and all the
other horrors you can imagine.  After that, there was the famine that
coincided with the "Great Leap Forward", reversing the Leap's direction, and
the civil war called the "Cultural Revolution", when rival factions
organised mobs to attack each other.

The partition of India was a delightful little blood bath, too.  There are
just so many other cases, too.  John's selection of horrors was actually
comparatively mild, if you think about it.

My guess for biggest pile of dead civilians would still be WWII, though.  As
a ratio, it's harder to say, because of the absurd case of no military
casualties.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
And how would you rate the Colonial Marine unit in
"Aliens"?
END QUOTE

One word. F*#&ing officers.
Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
interview on the DVD). 

James (Who owns the DVD of Aliens even though he has
no DVD player. And also wants to join the USMC because
of Aliens even though he is Australian.)


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS War what is it good for, absolutely nothing (apart f
 rom the Industrial Military complex)
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17918@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

> I can't buy into that at all, John.  Sorry.  Wars seem no more
> omnipresent today than they were in classical times.  The only
> relationships I would draw are the motivation for vengeance that
> connects the survivors to a mass slaughter, and Malthusian effects of
> reducing population pressure by reducing population.  Two forces that
> relationships that seem in opposition to each other.  Even if you
> massacre _all_ your enemy, even the children below age six, you will
> put yourself high on the rest of the world's Enemies To Destroy list. 
> There will come the day you are on the losing side in a war, and
> genocide is not a precedent that you'd like to have around.


John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 
I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because 
humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill 
that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate 
thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in 
Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost 
any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something 
separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before. 
 
The three examples above are only those examples I know of with 
the highest death toll, tens of thousands were also been killed in 
Indonesia in the 1960s and in the ruins of Yugoslavia.  

Combat lethality may have gone down, but death tolls in conflicts 
have certainly gone *way* up.

From Me:
Unfortunately it seems that as the leathility of the battlefield increases,
the likelihood of inter-state war (ie between two countries) has decreased.
So conflicts largely around the globe, present US campaign excluded, are
internal disputes. And when it is internal it is when genocide and other
nasty elimination stuff, happens the most. Especially when you have western
industrial powers that are unwilling to become involved in 'Nation Building'
and actually step in and say 'hey man, killing your own people is wrong'.
Fortunately that seems to be happening a bit more now. 

The sad thing is for Afghanistan is that  the best thing that ever happened
to them, I hope in the long run that is, was September 11. Cause there was
no way in hell anyone was going to do anything about it otherwise.

My 0.02 of course. 


Mikey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
In-Reply-To: <200204072341.DOR00933@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407180641.00a07670@mindspring.com>

At 07:41 PM 4/7/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I keep wondering about those passenger prices.  It doesn't
>make any sense.  If I fly from Washington, DC to Newark, NJ,
>it's cheaper than flying from Washington, DC to Los Angeles,
>CA.

Wrong analogy, think steamships in the days before regular air travel.

Passengers could get (relatively) cheap passage between large established 
ports, say Southampton and New York, they were serviced by large, regular 
liners.  Getting from London to Mombassa involved trips on small freighters 
with a few extra staterooms, any number of stops and delays, and being 
charged whatever the market could get away with.  Think the freighter in 
"Raiders of the Lost Ark."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:30:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:30:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <20020407234850.57151.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407181125.009efb90@mindspring.com>

At 09:48 AM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>QUOTE
>If that retinal scanner makes the crew sit through
>three or four rescans before it lets them in, or
>mistakes them for a terrorist a couple times a week,
>expect the retinal scanner to be bypassed before the
>ship comes out of its first jump.
>END QUOTE
>
>Thats what fire axes are for!
>
>HAL:Come on Dave be reasonable! Put the axe down!
>Dave, Dave! NOOOOOOOO...0).^%^$&9&##5.

"Computer, if you don't open that exit hatch this moment I shall zap 
straight off to your major data banks and reprogram you with a very large 
ax, got that?"

<silence>

"Right.  Get the ax."

<door opens>

Zaphod Beeblebrox


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
   - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
In-Reply-To: <OF0BD69FC0.8B0C14DC-ONCA256B94.00752218@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <000601c1de9d$a1a80760$2f7de40c@loki>

david.d.jaques-watson supposes, "4. Banned from 'Net access by the
Illuminati;"

Maybe the Illuminati are just preventing you from receiving GDWGames
copious daily posts filled with detailed information you are not
prepared to read.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407180641.00a07670@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOGCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Douglas Berry says
[Passengers could get (relatively) cheap passage between large established
ports, say Southampton and New York, they were serviced by large, regular
liners.  Getting from London to Mombassa involved trips on small freighters
with a few extra staterooms, any number of stops and delays, and being
charged whatever the market could get away with.  Think the freighter in
"Raiders of the Lost Ark." ] endBlock

Then let's consider a frontier. No established trade routes.
You can either take a Jump-2 ship to a destination 5 parsecs away
through intermediate planets at 8,000 cr per jump (three jumps total,
24,000 cr), or you can take my Jump-5 ship, and I charge you 20,000 cr
for the same middle passage.  It's a one off, and I can get you and
your friends there earlier.

Which makes me wonder where they come up with the idea of those
prices.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 19:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 18:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
Message-ID: <20020407.215033.-132267.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 19:15:43 -0500 John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
writes:

> FF&S2 describes two types of galleys for food preparation: 

> Again, FF&S2 discusses ship's lockers, though in less detail.  

Thanks for the info.  I do own a copy of FFS2, but tend to go blind after
awhile reading through all those tables.

Again, thanks.


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."





________________________________________________________________
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Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
Message-ID: <20020408022950.69084.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Or Ha-Un batteries (Batteries made from a mixture of
Handwavium and Unobtainium)...
END QUOTE

I believe the equation is Ha+Un = TU ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hull designs, deck plans, yadda yadda
Message-ID: <200204080233.DOX00653@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

A ship is a pressure vessel, right? I'm trying to think of a 
reason that you would waste space on a "hallway".  I'm 
thinking of the deck plan for a needle configuration, and I'm 
thinking that it would be similar to a modern submarine, with 
a long tapered nose.

The deck plan of a submarine came to mind, and I don't 
remember seeing "hallways".  

Are there any deck plans of a modern submarine on the web?
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>

At 11:08 AM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:

>One word. F*#&ing officers.
>Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
>officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
>enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
>interview on the DVD).

OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's 
all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window 
as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get 
Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.  In my view, those 
are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:39:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:39:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Prices
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAIEOGCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407180641.00a07670@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193614.009ffac0@mindspring.com>

At 09:38 PM 4/7/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Then let's consider a frontier. No established trade routes.
>You can either take a Jump-2 ship to a destination 5 parsecs away
>through intermediate planets at 8,000 cr per jump (three jumps total,
>24,000 cr), or you can take my Jump-5 ship, and I charge you 20,000 cr
>for the same middle passage.  It's a one off, and I can get you and
>your friends there earlier.
>
>Which makes me wonder where they come up with the idea of those
>prices.

People with very little experience in travel.

GT: Far Trader does a much better job of modelling the actual flow of 
passenger prices.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 20:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sun Apr  7 19:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001501c1dea7$7bed0480$0b01a8c0@duck>

>      Intersecting meson beams being used as some sort of active sensor
> system.  The beams also need to intersect at a "shallow", or obtuse, angle
> with each other.  The beams in the case of Tanis system were projected
from
> two widely seperated locations the system's planetoid belt.

Actually, one beam was from a GG moon, the other from Darrian itself.

>      This adds some complexity to any deploymeny of the Star Trigger. ...
> Two ships would then be a minimum; one to release the probe and project a
> beam, the other to project the second beam.

The original (non-working Star Trigger) didn't know anything about the
meson interference project.  They thought the stellar probe itself caused
the flares.  Therefore, the original operation of the Star Trigger would
only require a single ship.

For an operational deployment, I would imagine that three ships would be
needed.  The two meson ships, and a much smaller "delivery" ship.  (Which
could possibly have to be sacrificed.)

>      IIRC, the effects aren't seen for many hours and, presumably, the
meson
> beams need to operated for that entire length of time.

This is not stated, and there is at least one hint that they don't.  I got
the impression that once the proper convergence was achieved, it was pretty
much over.  The wait was for the effects to reach you.

>      All of this makes the Star Trigger a rather finicky device.  ...

While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I don't
see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the trick
is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it.

>      This may be part of the reason why the Sword Worlds haven't been on
the
> recieving end of one yet.  The devastation that such a strike would also
> inflict on both Imperial and Confederation systems may also be part of the
> answer.

The reason the Sword Worlds never received a flare was for two reasons:
1) They are too close.  The Darrians would suffer from the EMP results as
   well as the Sword Worlders, unless they went *deep* into SW territory.
2) The Star Trigger did not become operational until after the Fifth FW.
   After the FFW, the Sword Worlds were, quite frankly, not much of a threat
   to the Darrians.

From what I can tell, after the FFW the Darrians had very few external
threats.  The only annoyance (besides the fractured Sword Worlds) seems to
be Garoo!  And no matter how annoying Garoo is, they just can't be worth
the effort and political backlash of using the Star Trigger.

> ...  If, IYTU, this mission fails or the
> reason(s) for it is/are not suspected, the Star Trigger is little more
than
> an extremely effective bogeyman.

While you can do whatever you want IYTU, in the OTU the Star Trigger does
work.

>      One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star
> Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was
> faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.

This is a great point.  It never really dawned on me, but you are
absolutely correct!  I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an
incredible accomplishment in its own right.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 21:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun Apr  7 20:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <20020407.155000.-156105.1.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407231301.0210b390@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:49 PM 4/7/2002, knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>Okay, so I'm considering writing up my own shipbuilding rules

Cool!

>Galleys - most rules state that Stewards do not require 'workstations' [...]
>Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
>amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
>other sundries.

Yes to both; "traditional" Traveller starship construction rules assumed 
that these, as well as other habitability needs (freshers, corridors, 
lifts, common areas, recreational facilities, etc.) are included in the 
canonical 4 dtons per person stateroom requirement.

When drawing deckplans, I generally allocate between 2 and 3 dtons for the 
actual stateroom, and use the remaining 1-2 dtons/stateroom for galley, 
storage, etc.  Remember that prior to FF&S, the Traveller starship 
construction rules were fairly loose, and fudging items like this was 
generally negligible in the long run.

I believe FF&S2 has rules for both provisions and preparation facilities.

Back in the CT days, I used to have a house rule that for extended duration 
missions (longer than 30 days), ships had to allocate 1% of the ship's 
total volume per month of provisions.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 21:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 20:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEOICGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_AAW+O329uHELj9/oA8bCnw)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Just looking at an interactive cruise ship deck plan.
http://dvo.free.fr/home.html

The standard prefab ship's cabin is 2.9 x 5 m or
2.9 x 5.5m.  This comes with two twin beds, shower,
hair dryer, tv/vcr, refrigerator w/soft drinks/minibar,
personal safe, telephone. closet, small desk, small
table, clothes drawers. The difference in the room
space is taken up by a different size desk.

Assuming a 3 meter ceiling, this is a little over 3 dTons.

Not bad, considering the amount of space.  This leaves
0.9 dTons of space for other purposes. But looking at 
the "hallways", I'm sure this excess is all used up before
you ever get to the dining rooms, etc.

If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area
of comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen,
restaurant kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.

_________________________________
There cannot be a crisis next week.  My schedule is already full.


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 21:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun Apr  7 20:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <001501c1dea7$7bed0480$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407233535.0201a0f0@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:45 PM 4/7/2002, Mike West wrote:
>[Somebody else said:]
>>One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star 
>>Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was 
>>faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.
>
>It never really dawned on me, but you are absolutely correct

Actually, it was hinted at: the Darrians are supposed to be Known Space's 
experts on stellar phenomena.  They faked the demonstration by being able 
to predict (far enough in advance) an appropriate naturally-occurring 
stellar phenomena, and then deploying ships to the site in time for the 
Star Trigger to be able to take credit for causing it.  IMHO, this is the 
rough equivalent of claiming to have an Earthquake Projector, and "proving" 
this claim by predicting a significant and unexpected earthquake well in 
advance.

I'm sure the use of Darrian military security around the site of the 
demonstration didn't hurt, either.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHACEOICGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20020408040109.7500F27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/07/02 at 11:35 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@comcast.net> said:

>If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
>meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area of
>comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen, restaurant
>kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.

Why 3 meters for deck to overhead?  It may be standard, but a lot of
that overhead is going to be wasted space. Two and a half meters is a
little over 8 feet, and that should be plenty. This gives you 5 - 1.5
meter squares per dton.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408000718.0284f8d0@pop.wizard.net>

James Ramsay:
>James (Who owns the DVD of Aliens even though he has
>no DVD player. And also wants to join the USMC because
>of Aliens even though he is Australian.)

We'll gladly take you, son.  You don't have to be a U.S. citizen to be a 
U.S. Marine.  I shared a barracks room for a year with a Lebanese Christian 
who was still a Lebanese citizen.  Contact the closest American consulate 
if you're serious.  Be sure to be able to do lots of pull ups from a dead 
hang and run three miles in under say 24 minutes.

And when you get off the plane to go to the Marine Corps Recruit Depot, 
just remember these two words:  "yellow footprints".  <WEG>

Much more serious advice.  Possibly the most important advice you will ever 
get in your life.  Find an MOS that gives you the training and expertise 
you want to use in your civilian career after you get it, and get that 
guaranteed in writing and signed by an officer.  Do not accept any talk no 
matter how reasonable or persuasive as a substitute.  Get the MOS you want, 
guaranteed.  In writing.  In writing.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
References: <20020408010818.82377.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>

Doug Berry regarding the film 'Aliens':
>OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's 
>all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window 
>as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.
>
>Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get 
>Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.  In my view, 
>those are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.

He was a brave fool, but a fool nonetheless.  But that's to be expected as 
the training, organization, and doctrine of the entire organization seemed 
to have been designed by the same.

Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units in 
Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no provision 
whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up against the 
Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win because of their 
balanced organization and integral combat and logistical support, despite 
their major technological disadvantage.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

laning says

[Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units in
Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no provision
whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up against the
Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win because of their
balanced organization and integral combat and logistical support, despite
their major technological disadvantage.] endBlock

Well then, I guess it's up to us to remedy that.

I had always wanted to do an entire orbital assault ship complete with its
marine complement (down to the last little bit).  Would need additional
ships capable of landing supplies, setting up landing fields, etc.  There's
a lot more to a successful landing than ships that can pound the planet into
rubble and a single shipload of marines.

Ever wonder why the naval units don't have pickets, reconnaissance,
minesweepers, etc?  No hospital ship, either.  I guess the Marines would
have nowhere to evac to if they're wounded.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB0F014.30539.36165A5@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020408044045.02AAD279F0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/08/02 at 01:19 AM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
said:

>On 7 Apr 2002 at 9:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

>> ObTrav:  To be controllable in full auto, I would think we would want
>> the free recoil down in the M-16 range (which is dubious, if you've ever
>> tried to hit something at 100 yards on full auto with the M-16).  I've
>> also noticed that as soon as recoil levels go over, say, a light rifle
>> in .243, people begin to notice, and when they notice, they either
>> flinch, or are apprehensive about firing, especially the first round.

>They do? Even my sisters didn't consider the SMLE to be excessive
>once  they were adults. It was a bit heavy when we were 10 or 12,
>though.  I've always thought that recoil isn't significant until
>you're dealing  with light, light .270 Winchesters, light .30-06's
>and up.

I had a problem with a 12 gauge when I was a kid. <g> I didn't even
notice there was recoil with a .22 rifle.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
Message-ID: <20020407.214938.-3991.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 23:01:11 -0500 "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
writes:
> On 04/07/02 at 11:35 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@comcast.net> said:
> 
> >If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
> >meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area of
> >comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen, 
> restaurant kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.
> 
> Why 3 meters for deck to overhead?  It may be standard, but a lot of
> that overhead is going to be wasted space. Two and a half meters is 
> alittle over 8 feet, and that should be plenty. This gives you 5 -  1.5
> meter squares per dton.
> 
> Eris

I assumed the 3 meters was deck to deck, allowing the extra space for
conduits, ducts, overhead lighting,, pipes, electrical stuff, grav plates
etc.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 22:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 21:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
Message-ID: <OF1B531251.5105373F-ONCA256B95.001A7F77@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Charles replied to Laning thus:
>>We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including 
>>ironing.  Every service a hotel provides, basically.
>
>Even hookers?

Certainly! Just the things you need to grab on to when you perform an EVA 
and the ship decides to lurch suddenly.

...or did I misunderstand your point?

;-)  ;-)  ;-)

(It really _must_ be Monday.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
In-Reply-To: <20020407.214938.-3991.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020408051123.47CD3279C0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/07/02 at 09:49 PM,  generalturokan@juno.com said:

>On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 23:01:11 -0500 "Eris Reddoch"
><erisred@telocity.com> writes:
>> On 04/07/02 at 11:35 PM,  "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@comcast.net> said:
>> 
>> >If I was figuring out excess space, I would assume a 3
>> >meter ceiling, and work backwards from things like the area of
>> >comparable places (a relax area, a lounge, small kitchen, 
>> restaurant kitchen, etc.).  Then I would calculate the volume.
>> 
>> Why 3 meters for deck to overhead?  It may be standard, but a lot of
>> that overhead is going to be wasted space. Two and a half meters is 
>> alittle over 8 feet, and that should be plenty. This gives you 5 -  1.5
>> meter squares per dton.
>> 
>> Eris

>I assumed the 3 meters was deck to deck, allowing the extra space for
>conduits, ducts, overhead lighting,, pipes, electrical stuff, grav
>plates etc.

I do to, but I allocate 6" to 8" for all that. I'm looking for extra
floor space to playing in. <g>  IAC, there's nothing stopping you from
tinkering with different shapes and sizes.

In one design I put lots of little sleeping chambers (ala the coffins
in some Japanese hotels) just high enough sit crosslegged on the bed
and not hit your head and just long enough to stretch out. Stack them
two or three high with a single shared fresher for a half dozen. The
passengers of these things use them for sleeping (storage under the
mat they sleep on), and the common lounge for everything else.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither Loren?
Message-ID: <OF463ECBF4.84389A2C-ONCA256B95.001C6AA3@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

"n2sami" replied:
>david.d.jaques-watson supposes, "4. Banned from 'Net access by the
>Illuminati;"
>
>Maybe the I________i are just preventing you from receiving G_______
>copious _____ posts filled with ________ ___________ you are not
>prepared to ____.
>
>
>---_w_a_r__---

Well that's strange, I only appear to have received half your message...

;-)  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <OF7C3A3904.BA8B0762-ONCA256B95.001D1920@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Mike West wrote:
>>      One VERY interesting story glossed over in all of this is the Star
>> Trigger demonstration the Darrians conducted.  Obviously, this test was
>> faked in some manner but how that was done is never even hinted at.
>
>This is a great point.  It never really dawned on me, but you are
>absolutely correct!  I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an
>incredible accomplishment in its own right.

OK, I'll give a real reply to a post, now.

From memory, the Darrians know a *lot* about stars and their life cycles. 
They've studied them extensively, both just prior to, and certainly after, 
the Maghiz.

They found a star that was just about to flare, set up a fake demo, then 
claimed success once the star flared (making sure the Zhos had a ringside 
seat).

My bet is that it occurred somewhere in Foreven.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr  7 23:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sun Apr  7 22:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408033711.7417D27A19@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020407222519.00a4ddf0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 19:35:36 -0700, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> 
wrote:

> >One word. F*#&ing officers.
> >Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
> >officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
> >enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
> >interview on the DVD).
>
>OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's
>all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window
>and was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

That, and the first encounter was in about the worst possible 
location.  The Marines were in a confined space, surrounded by the enemy, 
most of them unarmed because of the risk of damage to the facility, and the 
second guy to buy it had all the ammo for the squad.  I don't care how good 
your CO is, you're going to take HEAVY casualties getting out of a 
clusterfuck like that.

There's also speculation/evidence in the supporting material that 
Weyland-Yutani deliberately picked a unit with a green officer (easier for 
the Company man on the spot to influence), perhaps even arranging for the 
previous Lt. to have an accident before the mission.  If you're gonna blame 
anyone, blame the suits.  :/


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>> Say what??? What's Oosik??
>
>A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
>bone from a walrus penis.  See
>http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html

For another poem about this wondrous item of nature, see BioGraffiti: A
Natural Selection by John M. Burns.  Oh, what the hell, it's short:

The Baculum

An inarticulate lucky stiff between
Paired spongy corpora casanova,
The baculum (or penis bone) of mammals
Lends firm support to a hard job.

Present in all insectivores,
Bats, rodents, carnivores,
And most primates (but not man),
It comes in many shapes.

That of the walrus (winner of a grand prix)
Is very like a warped baseball bat
Some two feet long. As one old walrus put it,
"Speak softly and carry a big stick".

Found at:

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Facility/4118/misc/biograffiti.htm
l

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:13:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:13:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407233535.0201a0f0@mail.qrc.com>
References: <F23bM3d9wUP6Q1AYYwW00001177@hotmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020407233535.0201a0f0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <19221143037.20020408151732@greimann.de>

> Star Trigger to be able to take credit for causing it.  IMHO, this is the 
> rough equivalent of claiming to have an Earthquake Projector, and "proving" 
> this claim by predicting a significant and unexpected earthquake well in 
> advance.

Now this is an interesting concept for a future James Bond Film:

The  enemy only pretending to have a doomsday weapon, and JB searching
the  earth in vain, always thinking he is too late only to find out in
the end that he has been tricked...



-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon:

>Ever wonder why the naval units don't have pickets, reconnaissance,
>minesweepers, etc?  No hospital ship, either.  I guess the Marines would
>have nowhere to evac to if they're wounded.

I figure all the naval support units like pickets and minesweepers (mines 
in space??) are provided by the fleet that the Marine transports are 
attached to.

Field hospitals and supplies will be Marine units that are landed 
separately, without all that jump capsule stuff.  Higher echelon support 
will partly be shipboard, I suppose.  Hospital ships probably exist, for 
instance.

But where are all the mortar sections, comm sections, armorers, ammo 
transport units, company- and battalion-level support weapons like HMGs and 
air defense and antiarmor weapons that you never see the TO&Es?  And the 
S-1, S-2, S-3, and S-4 staff billets?

I could devise a few such TO&Es by simply copying some units from WW2 to 
present times and changing a detail here or there.  Seems boring, but if 
people here request it I'll try to post a few.  Prepare to see my really 
big squads with lots of automatic weapons.  :->

I have no idea what the GT material is on this, and have no intention to 
write up anything compatible with it.  The system is too incompatible with 
prior versions for me to invest that much money in them.  Although I do 
keep meaning to shop for a few of the books, if they work as source books 
for CT/MT.  'First In" seems to be very popular, for instance.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Sci Fi Books that are Ob Trav
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1791D@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

I know I am a tad late in this thread but it occurred to be the other day
that a very Ob Trav type series of books were the Amtrak Wars by Patrick
Tilley. Hi Tech underground civilisation fighting mad max esq mutated
barbarians. The descriptions of the underground settlements seem very trav,
monorails, life support levels, you name it. 

I'm re-reading them now. I liked them as a teenager and, ten years later,
they're still pretty good. 

In fact it would make a great GURPS sourcebook. Doug Berry come on down. 
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Railguns
In-Reply-To: <3CB002D3.382EA5CD@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <3CB1AEF9.30344.7D45D12@localhost>

Hi all!

Earlier discussion about railguns (vs. coilguns) got me curious, so I 
went and found this site:

<http://www.railgun.org/>

Check it out!  They've got a lot of cool stuff -- all the formulas for the 
more gearheaded, pics of the assembly process, how they chose 
what projectile to use, etc. etc.  

-- Rachel 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 00:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr  7 23:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was
inexperienced, that's all.  All he knew was the book,
and suddenly the book went out the window 
as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and
went back to get Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to
slow the enemy down.  In my view, those are the kind
of things that posthumous decorations are given out
for.
END QUOTE

I agree that he did the right thing at the end but he
was incredibly incompetent in the first encounter with
the aliens. I suspect he was chosen for the mission
because of his inexperiance, and or compliance to the
company. After all the actual grunts where a seasoned
combat hardened bunch of veterens, who I think where
probably the equivalent to the marine force recon. Why
would someone who has only ever had one actual mission
be put in charge of such a group? And he froze in a
combat situation endangering the lives of his men! And
the aliens wheren't that tough, notice how the people
who had guns survived (Drake was killed by friendly
fire). All the people with wimpy 'flame units' died.
It was a sever tactical error to send troops into an
area with no effective means of fighting. And James
Cameron was inspired by his brothers time in vietnam.
However I still like Gorman for his actions at the end
of the film.

ObTrav: Do the average grunts still bitch about thier
officers? Has officer - enlisted sophont relationship
improved or got worse?

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408040658.0326ba80@pop.wizard.net>

James Ramsay regarding Colonial Marines in the film 'Aliens':
>company. After all the actual grunts where a seasoned
>combat hardened bunch of veterens, who I think where
>probably the equivalent to the marine force recon.

No, not even close to Force Recon.  Maybe more like draftee Marines early 
in WW2 minus the commitment to a cause, and with no experience.  If I'm in 
a generous mood.  I'll take an equal number of former Force Recon who 
haven't worn a uniform in twenty years or more against that useless bunch 
of physically fit young men and women any time.

Perhaps they were supposed to be combat veterans, but most of them only 
acted like the Hollywood director's idea of that.  And their organization 
and doctrine didn't reflect any type of combat experience.  In short, they 
struck me as a bunch of high school football jocks who think they're, um 
kings of the world based on zero available evidence, and therefore 
qualified to fight a war.

After the first 'Alien' movie, abandon all notions of realism.

My ObTrav is to be very careful running military units in Traveller 
campaigns, it isn't easy being believable if you have players with more 
direct military knowledge than the referee.  Not that those players will 
want complete realism either.  They'll want fun and adventure.  But they 
still need to keep their belief suspenders from snapping.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 02:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon Apr  8 01:22:02 2002
Subject: TOE was RE: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEOKEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I did a TOE for a TL13 Terran Marine Unit in MT. Most of the vehicles are on
my site though I have never posted the TOE itself. I gave it recon, kitchen,
medivac, mobile hospital etc. My proudest achievement was designing (in MT)
a mobile Grav Field Kitchen. I still have the organisation lying around
somewhere.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 03:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr  8 02:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408040658.0326ba80@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <004b01c1dedd$23466840$2f9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Perhaps they were supposed to be combat veterans, but most of them only
> acted like the Hollywood director's idea of that.  And their organization
> and doctrine didn't reflect any type of combat experience.  In short, they
> struck me as a bunch of high school football jocks who think they're, um
> kings of the world based on zero available evidence, and therefore
> qualified to fight a war.
>

They were, I think, supposed to be experienced, but only at "correcting"
colonists who were behaving in naughty ways. (mainly by showing up and
acting like badasses). Dozens of soft missions made them complacent and
overconfident.

But yeah, the unit suffered from Hollywooditis. Who issues a support weapon
you have to use standing up?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 03:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr  8 02:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005c01c1dedd$c64fecf0$2f9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> ObTrav: Do the average grunts still bitch about thier
> officers? Has officer - enlisted sophont relationship
> improved or got worse?
>
>
My father told me last night (from his time in the Air Force).. he and a
bunch of other enlisteds were hurrying somewhere in a corridor. They spied
an officer at the last second, and two of them saluted. The officer shouted
at them. So on the way back they ALL saluted, to keep the mean officer
happy. So he shouted at them some more "FOR SALUTING IN A CORRIDOR!!!!!"

They went away cursing both officers and corridors, not very much the wiser.

Another time he spied someone in an unfamiliar dress uniform. Could have
been Russian for all he knew, but he saluted to be on the safe side. The
Canadian corporal smiled wryly and went on his way....


From shadow@krypton.scn.rain.com  Mon Apr  8 03:07:42 2002
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X-Original-Article-From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] helium-3
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
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Date: Mon Apr  8 08:08:13 2002
X-Original-Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 23:29:02 PST

In mail you write:

> I keep looking at the p-H3 reaction, and although it has a 
> high hurdle for starting, it yields more energy per unit 
> fuel, and is aneutronic.
>
> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.
>
> It looks like you could build a much smaller H3 fusion 
> reactor, not just from the standpoint of overall yield per 
> unit fuel, but also because no energy would be wasted 
> accelerating neutrons (70% of the D-T cycle is neutron 
> energy), and there would be no need to have neutron 
> shielding.  I can almost see the argument that the only way 
> to get a "tabletop" fusion reactor would be to run it on H3.

Whoa!

H3 is *tritium*. He3 is Helium-3.

*Big* difference.

> Looking for a handwave for H3 reactors...

It's gonna be *expensive*. Because the fuel is rare and a *lot* harder
to store than liquid hydrogen.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:09:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:09:34 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <20020403012608.08423dc6.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20407.233050.7S9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
>> Helium-3 is not as plentiful as deuterium, to be sure, but it 
>> doesn't seem to be that hard to find.
>
> Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
> surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).

Yeah, it merely requires processing *tonnes* of regolith for *grams* of
He3.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:10:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:10:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Sleeping In Starports, without Jimmy Hoffa
In-Reply-To: <200204022222.DFJ00282@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20408.001328.7c5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> One thing used to bother me about Traveller, and that was the 
> price of energy.  Considering the long lifetime and initial 
> cost of a fusion powerplant, how could anything cost very 
> much?  I saw a report on mining, and on what might be 
> possible if you had access to a high temperature plasma for 
> mineral separation.  It basically came down to cost -- if the 
> fusion reactor providing the energy for the plasma separator 
> runs below a certain cost, it suddenly doesn't make sense to 
> ship ore, even if what you want is present in less than 1% of 
> the dirt.  The problem becomes one of shipping costs.  The 
> same device could also be used in recycling to return 
> anything to its component atoms.

Yep.

> So, is that how the recycler works on the ship?  Is there 
> some plasma separator in there, and it's all reduced to 
> whatever the ship's environmental controls are interested 
> in?  Dump the other ions into space?

No, that's a bit *too* thorough. It takes a lot of effort to build
complex organics. You wouldn't run them thru that sort of system.
*Inorganic* waste, maybe.

Unless you've got nanotech, or similar "magic" level tech, you want to
leave organic molecules intact unless you've got a *good* reason to
break them down that far.

Life-support level air and water recycling is done easily without going
*that* far.

> Nice place for the Jimmy Hoffas of the future...

The excess carbon in the logs will require a *lot* of explanation.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20408.003625.1N7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The esteemed Leonard Erickson wrote, including quotes from Texas Redshift:
>> > For anything high tech, probably some combination.  You probably can't 
> get
>> > in with a normal cutting torch in any sensible time, and the ship will
>> > send out an alert if you try, but breaching charges will work.  Doesn't
>> > do the ship much good, however.
>>
>>Also, it can't be *too* hard. there will be lots of situations when the
>>crew wants to get inside *fast*, or they may be a bit "damaged" or
>>"incapacitated". Or both.
>>
>>Entry should be merely difficult enough to dissaude *amatuers*. Pros
>>will get in anyway, so the extra efforts isn't really justifiable in
>>terms of cost/benefit.
> I agree but only a little bit.  The penalty when you do lose a ship (and 
> probably some lives at the same time) is very large.  Typically hundreds of 
> millions.  Yes, it is a touchstone of security that no security system is 
> perfect, and you shouldn't spend excess effort on attempting to perfect 
> your security beyond a point that is appropriate to your degree of risk and 
> the cost if security fails.  Even one fat trader or passenger liner lost is 
> going to drive everyone's insurance rates through the roof and may risk 
> putting the insurer financially on the ropes.

Not necessarily.

One out of how many? That's the key there.

> If nobody else does, then 
> insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security 
> measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time 
> and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.

You are considering *installation* costs. I'm talking about the costs
in time wasted due to "overly stringent" security getting in the way.

Oil tankers are expensive too. So are modern freighters. And *safety*
gear on them that "gets in the way" is routinely bypassed by crews,
never mind "security" gear.

> Oh, I'm not sure that the phrase "kill switches" was supposed to mean 
> mantrap defenses.  I think it may have meant disabling critical ship's 
> systems.  Perhaps a triphammer smashes the zuchai crystals.  <G>

I didn't think it did. I know what a kill switch is. I brought up
lethal defenses because they have been discussed in the past, and would
have popped up any minute anyway.

And yes, the TU isn't the US. Some places are less forgiving, some are
more. Which laws apply to a ship in port could get very important.

>>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
>>someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
>>attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...

> I see we've met some of the same player characters.  :->

Alas, I understand that there have actually been a couple of real world
cases of this already. And it's been a standard dodge in fiction for
*at least* 50 years.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:13:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:13:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204030529.g335TAO02739@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard writes:

> But, as you say in a later post, the energy of forces might seem
> stronger under inertial suppression. Well, is that really the
> case? A change in gravity should produce no difference, as
> masses fall at the same speed, all other things being equal.
> If I drop a feather in a vacuum, and a drop a rock in a
> vacuum, they should both fall at the same speed. So I don't
> think that changing inertia should effect how an object behaves
> with respect to the gravitational force. What about the weak,
> strong, and EM forces?

Actually, consider that rock and feather in a vacuum *and* with zero
inertia. Let go and they undergo "infinite" acceleration as gravity
takes effect, and zero time later infinite *deceleration* as they hit
the bottom of the tube.

>> Actually, true inertia neutralization would affect so many different
>> things that killing you would be one of the *minor* side effects. 
>
> In what way?

Chemical reaction rates depend strongly on the mass of the atoms. Atoms
with similar properties (same column in the periodic table) react at
rates that are strongly connected with their mass differences. 

So the rates might increase dramaticly.

Molecular collisions in air would result in the molecules stopping,
rather than rebounding. So the opposing portions of their vectors would
cancel out. Add in the effects of gravity, and all the air molecules
would be in a thin layer near the floor. 

Thermal effects on the gases get weird too.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

>> But assuming that you can live thru the process, then it'd be best to
>> ignore all the effects at the sub-molar level (ie molecular and lower).
>
> Can't do this.

Then you're dead. Too many of the forces at those levels *do* depend on
inertia. Lowering inertia raises the *effective* force.

As an example, the reason that water doesn't boil at around -150 F is
because of Van der waals forces. Compare the boiling points of hydrogen
oxide, hydrogen sulfide, and so on down that column in the periodic
table. All of them *but* H2O have very low boiling points. 

Lowering the inertia of the molecules will have the effect of adding
similar forces. Which will change the physical and chemical properties
of compounds *drastically*. 
  
>> This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
>> work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
>> viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.
>
> Except that your heart would also be of a lower apparent mass.

What's *that* got to do with it? The pumping forces are due to
contraction of the muscle fibers. The mass of the heart has little
relevance there. The only effect it'd have (to the first order, anyway)
is making it *easier* to contract. 

> Instead of thinking of a normal pool ball hitting a styrofoam ball,
> think of one styrofoam ball hitting another one. On the molecular
> scale, I'm guessing that this would be more akin to what would be
> happening. -Jim

Nope. Because you lose the rebound. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:15:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:15:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402215009.0283aec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20408.010158.0K9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson, in replying to JimV said:
>
>>BTW, as a minor side point, the inability to compensate accelerations
>>higher than 6 g says to me that 6 g (or maybe 7) is the max strength
>>artifical gravity field that can be generated. Which places limits on
>>playing "grav pong" with hijackers.
> Sounds like we see it the same way.  Although +6 gees to -6 gees in less 
> than one second should be sufficient grav pong to deal with most hijackers.
>
> I've always wondered at the canonical lack of ships capable of 
> accelerations far greater than 6 gees.  We subject astronauts and fighter 
> pilots to accelerations between 4 and 6 gees, so you'd think that high 
> performance military aircraft would be capable of accelerating many gees 
> faster than their internal grav compensation can handle.  They accelerate 
> at 10 gees, have 6 gees of that compensated, and a "felt acceleration" of 4 
> gees.

Actually, fighter pilots are limited by the fact that they *have* to
experience gees in a "head to feet" direction. If you can take the
acceleration "flat on your back", the limt is between 15 and 18 gees.
That's the point at which you can't excercise fine muscle control.

3 gees can be handled "indefinitely" (hours, at least). 

This is only practical for "fighter" type ships. And the power & fuel
consumption is going to be high. But due to the fact that turns have to
be made by changing the direction the "mainn drive" points, they'll
*always* be taking all but a tiny fraction of the accel in the same
direction.

It only takes a fraction of a g to flip a ship end for end in space.
It's changing the direction it is *traveling* that takes the main
drive. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:16:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <F149PnvEZZ91Lhdms4Q000022be@hotmail.com>

From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>

     "Actually, one beam was from a GG moon, the other from Darrian itself."


Mr. West,

     You are correct, sir.  My apologies for "bum doping" the List.

     "The original (non-working Star Trigger) didn't know anything about the 
meson interference project.  They thought the stellar probe itself caused 
the flares.  Therefore, the original operation of the Star Trigger would 
only require a single ship."

     Yes, a single ship that would deliver a non-working device.

     "This is not stated, and there is at least one hint that they don't.  I 
got the impression that once the proper convergence was achieved, it was 
pretty much over.  The wait was for the effects to reach you."

     Perhaps the beams needn't be held on location for hours, but other 
portions of the weapon do require time.  How much time does it take for the 
probe to release enough tungsten into the star for the Trigger to work?  How 
far off must the projector vessels be in order to escape?Assuming a 
seperation between Darrian and Tanis of 1 AU, it would take a meson beam ~8 
minutes to cover that distance.  Put the second projector on a GG moon at a 
Jupiter distance and the time jumps to ~45 minutes.  Now throw in comm times 
between vessels and aiming attempts, you'll need both to ensure you get the 
proper angle of interference.
     Even parking both projector vessels at the star's 100D limit, so they 
can escape, means that beam travel distance, comm lag, and subsequent aiming 
attempts are all going to take time.  Maybe not hours, but certainly not 
minutes.

     "While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I 
don't see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the 
trick is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it."

     Yes, seeding the star with enough tungsten and aiming correctly will 
take time.  Perhaps the Darrians use multiple probes to increase their 
chances?

     "The reason the Sword Worlds never received a flare was for two 
reasons: 1) They are too close..."

     Yes, the "collateral" damage to both Darrian and Imperial space I 
mentioned.

     "2) The Star Trigger did not become operational until after the Fifth 
FW.  After the FFW, the Sword Worlds were, quite frankly, not much of a 
threat to the Darrians."

     You missed the point of the fake Star Trigger and the real story behind 
the faked demostration.  Everyone, INCLUDING THE DARRIANS, thought it 
worked!  It had to be this way so that Zho mind readers would verify it's 
both existence and operability.  So, for deterrent purposes, the Star 
Trigger, whether working or not, was deployed, IIRC, immediately after the 
2nd FW.  Plenty of time for a Confederacy tussling with the Sword Worlds 
over the Entropic Cluster to think about using it.  Remember, they thought 
it worked!
     The "real" reason the Star Trigger wasn't used during all those 
centuries is that weapons of mass destruction aren't, except in very rare 
cases, used to ensure you'll WIN a war.  They're used to ensure that the 
other fellow LOSES the war.  This is a important distinction.  The Star 
Trigger and MAD, on which it is based, is a suicide pact; "You push us too 
far and we'll make sure we all die, you included."
     The Trigger can be used defensively rather easily, by employing it you 
ensure that the power about to conquer you is left with nothing worth 
conquering.  Using the Trigger offensively, like nukes, is far tougher.  
Sure we can all spin out scenario after scenario in which nukes win the day, 
but they would all depend on very specific, out of the ordinary, 
prerequisites.

     "While you can do whatever you want IYTU, in the OTU the Star Trigger 
does work."

     Yes, as you pointed out it works after the 5th FW.  However, it was 
deployed for far longer than that.

     "I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an incredible 
accomplishment in its own right."

     Keeping the secret that the Trigger demonstration was a fake was the 
really incrediable accomplishment.  The fakers had to fool both the 
observers from the other powers AND their own people utterly and completely. 
  Why didn't the secret never leak out?  Mass suicide among the project 
staff over "creating" so horrible a weapon?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:17:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:17:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 0:22, laning wrote:

> Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units
> in Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no
> provision whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up
> against the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win
> because of their balanced organization and integral combat and
> logistical support, despite their major technological disadvantage.

I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were 
based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped 
their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its 
subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its 
companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it 
belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles, 
field ovens, etc.

I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of 
the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be 
used to supply and support its troops.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:18:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:18:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <20020408044045.02AAD279F0@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB0F014.30539.36165A5@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB236E1.7282.680449@localhost>

On 7 Apr 2002 at 23:40, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I had a problem with a 12 gauge when I was a kid. <g> I didn't even
> notice there was recoil with a .22 rifle.

I thought 12 gauges were fine - they push rather than kick and come 
with nice rubber butt pads. Not like No.1 Lee-Enfields with their solid 
brass butt plate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:19:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:19:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020408065821.86743.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408075125.009ec5e0@mindspring.com>

At 04:58 PM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>ObTrav: Do the average grunts still bitch about thier
>officers? Has officer - enlisted sophont relationship
>improved or got worse?

Soldiers still bitch about everything.  It is their one right.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:20:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:20:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>

At 02:28 AM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>John Kwon:
>
>>Ever wonder why the naval units don't have pickets, reconnaissance,
>>minesweepers, etc?  No hospital ship, either.  I guess the Marines would
>>have nowhere to evac to if they're wounded.
>
>I figure all the naval support units like pickets and minesweepers (mines 
>in space??) are provided by the fleet that the Marine transports are 
>attached to.
>
>Field hospitals and supplies will be Marine units that are landed 
>separately, without all that jump capsule stuff.  Higher echelon support 
>will partly be shipboard, I suppose.  Hospital ships probably exist, for 
>instance.
>
>But where are all the mortar sections, comm sections, armorers, ammo 
>transport units, company- and battalion-level support weapons like HMGs 
>and air defense and antiarmor weapons that you never see the TO&Es?  And 
>the S-1, S-2, S-3, and S-4 staff billets?
>
>I could devise a few such TO&Es by simply copying some units from WW2 to 
>present times and changing a detail here or there.  Seems boring, but if 
>people here request it I'll try to post a few.  Prepare to see my really 
>big squads with lots of automatic weapons.  :->
>
>I have no idea what the GT material is on this, and have no intention to 
>write up anything compatible with it.  The system is too incompatible with 
>prior versions for me to invest that much money in them.  Although I do 
>keep meaning to shop for a few of the books, if they work as source books 
>for CT/MT.  'First In" seems to be very popular, for instance.

GT Ground Forces has complete brigade and regiment TO&Es for the Unified 
Armies of the Imperium and the Imperial Marine Force.  I spent most of my 
time developing the support units, and much of the Operations chapter is 
dedicated to issues of supply and support.

The Standard Issue chapter has the 30,000dton Keith-class brigade 
transport, along with its six Nakerth-class landers.. 1,200 tons each, 
carrying a full combat battalion to a world's surface. There is also the 
Caen-class dropship, the standard 1,200 transport for the Imperial Marines.

Among the vehicles included are a recovery sled, a heavy G-Carrier, and an 
engineering sled.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Sleeping In Starports, without Jimmy Hoffa
Message-ID: <200204081516.DPW00037@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>
>The excess carbon in the logs will require a *lot* of 
>explanation.
>

I used to play in a T campaign where a silicon-based alien 
species referred to us as "carbon-units".  The referee also
used to joke that the aliens knew they hit a ship with
people in it, because they used spectography to look for 
the carbon line when your ship was vaporized.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <20407.233050.7S9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204081031040.23520-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
> > surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).
> 
> Yeah, it merely requires processing *tonnes* of regolith for *grams* of
> He3.

Transhuman Space also says that ratio is good enough.
And it says you can get He3 more easily from gas giants.  In that future
history, the US put a colony in Saturn's orbit solely for that purpose.
Since most Traveller starships are capable of scooping gas giants anyway,
why not go by that route?

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 09:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam Draper)
Date: Mon Apr  8 08:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20020408033711.7417D27A19@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGMEANCFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>

I was reading an article recently by a US Army surgeon who served in Vietnam
(Martin Fackler).  He found that the 7.62x39 would penetrate 29 inches of
ballistic gelatin, the 5.56x45 (M193) penetrates 13+ inches, and the 7.62x51
penetrates 25 inches (all FMJ).  Although the 7.62x39 had the deepest
penetration, it produced the least devestating wound.  The bullet
penetrated, turned around, and then exited.  He says, from his experience in
Vietnam, the "average uncomplicated thigh wound was about what one would
expect from a low-powered handgun: a small, punctate entrance and exit wound
with minimal intervening muscle disruption."  The US 7.62x51 produced an
uncomplicated wound profile like the 7.26x39.  The 5.56 produced a pretty
devestating wound, because the bullet would, as it yawed, split in half,
with the base fragmenting into a number of smaller projectiles.  This
reduced penetration, but made a big hole (up to 5" in diameter).  Velocity
had to be at least 2700 fps for the bullet to fragment (muzzle velocity with
a M16 is like 3200+), and no fragmentation took place until the bullet had
penetrated 4-5" of tissue.

Interestingly, German 7.62x51 bullets have a thinner jacket, and that round
would fragment like the 5.56.

I have read before that 5.56 soft points have pathetic penetration in
tissue, but 308 caliber soft points certainly get good penetration and
produce enormous wounds.  Bullet construction seems to be critical in
producing wounds; that seems to be largely ignored in Traveller other than
HE and DS rounds.

I wonder, does the Imperium follow the Geneva convention regarding FMJ
rounds?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 10:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 09:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS War what is it good for, absolutely nothing (apart f rom the Industrial Military complex)
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17918@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>; from Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:11:41AM +1000
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17918@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020408100937.B1314@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:11:41AM +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
>
> Especially when you have western industrial powers that are
> unwilling to become involved in 'Nation Building' and actually step
> in and say 'hey man, killing your own people is wrong'.

The last time nations took a wholesale interest in one another's
affairs, Europe was nearly destroyed in the wars of religion.  The
state system evolved in order to prevent that kind of mass death and
destruction.  The problem now is that states are so large: if the
Grand Duchy of Potlork--consisting of the Grand Duke, his staff,
10,000 citizens and a herd of cattle--goes on a genocidal rampage, its
fairly easy to escape to neighbouring Ruritania.  If the EU does, it's
somewhat more complicated, should one live in, e.g., Arras.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their
pockets for new vocabulary.                     --James D. Nicoll

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 10:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Mon Apr  8 09:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] E-mail still down -- Help Needed
Message-ID: <l03010d0bb8d770ec2013@[206.224.92.67]>

First, my GDWGames@aol.com account is still in the doldrums -- I have a new
computer (well, new to me -- it is an order of magnitude advance over my
old one, but still a used machine) through the courtesy of Geoff MacDonald,
who gave me a very good deal. I'm still struggling with modem issues,
however, so rejuvenatation of the old address will take a while.

A second point:

Will anyone who owns one of the following old GDW Boardgames please get in
touch with me.

	1941
	1942!
	Battle of Agincourt 1415 AD
	Battle of Lobositz
	Battle of Prague
	Battle of Raphia 217 BC

I'll explain in e-mail.



Loren Wiseman
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/
     SJ Games
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 10:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 09:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] helium-3
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204081031040.23520-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018283921.6838.ajackson@ping>

Gregory Carl Kettler writes:
> On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > > Transhuman Space states that He3 gathers on, among other places, the
> > > surface of the moon (from solar wind deposits).
> > 
> > Yeah, it merely requires processing *tonnes* of regolith for *grams* of
> > He3.
> 
> Transhuman Space also says that ratio is good enough.

Mostly because TS uses realistic fuel requirements for fusion.  3He is still
200 million dollars per ton in TS.  Of course, TS doesn't have contragravity
and thruster plates, which means getting stuff out of saturn is a challenge.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 11:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 10:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe@aol.com>

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In a message dated 08/04/02 03:39:21 GMT Daylight Time, 
gridlore@mindspring.com writes:


> >One word. F*#&ing officers.
> >Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
> >officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
> >enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
> >interview on the DVD).
> 
> OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was inexperienced, that's 
> all.  All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window 
> as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.
> 
> Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get 
> Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.  In my view, those 
> 
> are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.
> 

What about the Sergeant (Apone?) - I thought the role of an NCO was to stop 
the officers messing everything up? Clearly he has more experience than 
Gorman and yet he's quite happy to lead his troops into an unknown 
environment against an unknown force AND he gives all the ammo to one man.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 08/04/02 03:39:21 GMT Daylight Time, gridlore@mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;One word. F*#&amp;ing officers.<BR>
&gt;Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the<BR>
&gt;officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to<BR>
&gt;enter direct combat (It says so in the directors<BR>
&gt;interview on the DVD).<BR>
<BR>
OK, that's not what I got at *all*&nbsp; Gorman was inexperienced, that's <BR>
all.&nbsp; All he knew was the book, and suddenly the book went out the window <BR>
as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.<BR>
<BR>
Win the shit came down, he covered his people, and went back to get <BR>
Vasquez, then sacrificed himself to slow the enemy down.&nbsp; In my view, those <BR>
are the kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
What about the Sergeant (Apone?) - I thought the role of an NCO was to stop the officers messing everything up? Clearly he has more experience than Gorman and yet he's quite happy to lead his troops into an unknown environment against an unknown force AND he gives all the ammo to one man.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 11:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 10:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <20408.003625.1N7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408123225.02823ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Leonard Erickson discusses the antihijacker issue:
> > If nobody else does, then
> > insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security
> > measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time
> > and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.
>
>You are considering *installation* costs. I'm talking about the costs
>in time wasted due to "overly stringent" security getting in the way.
>
>Oil tankers are expensive too. So are modern freighters. And *safety*
>gear on them that "gets in the way" is routinely bypassed by crews,
>never mind "security" gear.

I wholeheartedly agree that personnel will tend to ignore things that are 
inconvenient.  That's partly why insurers and lenders and regulators at 
starports will be the ones insisting on enforcement through certifications 
and inspections.  They won't expect ship crews to take care of it on their own.

I think the analogy with ocean-going vessels in our own world is useful, 
but not a complete analogy.  I think tankers and freighters mostly rely for 
their safety on the fact that any hijacker has an extremely difficult time 
fencing the rather unique and obvious stolen property.  As well as a 
communication network that is practically instantaneous around the globe 
and military patrols being able to reach the vessel by aircraft at speeds 
at least an order of magnitude faster than the vessel can travel.


> > Oh, I'm not sure that the phrase "kill switches" was supposed to mean
> > mantrap defenses.  I think it may have meant disabling critical ship's
> > systems.  Perhaps a triphammer smashes the zuchai crystals.  <G>
>
>I didn't think it did. I know what a kill switch is. I brought up
>lethal defenses because they have been discussed in the past, and would
>have popped up any minute anyway.
>
>And yes, the TU isn't the US. Some places are less forgiving, some are
>more. Which laws apply to a ship in port could get very important.
>
> >>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be defeated rather easily by
> >>someone ruthless enough. That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be
> >>attached to the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...
>
> > I see we've met some of the same player characters.  :->
>
>Alas, I understand that there have actually been a couple of real world
>cases of this already. And it's been a standard dodge in fiction for
>*at least* 50 years.

Sounds like our overall positions are not that far apart after all.  My 
vision of antihijacking measures is moderated and mitigated by all the 
things you've pointed out.  I do believe that captain and crew should have 
very quick access in case of emergency, and that daily activities should be 
only slightly impacted or not impacted at all, if possible.  Overrides 
should be available in multiple ways.  If this leaves loopholes that can be 
exploited by a determined, knowledgable, and clever foe then that risk is 
recompensed by all the honest passengers and crew who are saved from being 
victims of dangerously rigid security systems.  But, within those 
restrictions, a few hundred years of big business should be able to work 
out a lot of safeguards that are very effective.  Starship owners willing 
to seek the right vendors, sign enough waivers, or maybe go outside the 
astrographical borders under the watchful eyes of various regulators to set 
up their security will still be able to do perhaps ill-advised things.  And 
then you have your crews who will disable or circumvent safeguards despite 
all the doublechecks  and safety inspections.  I imagine skilled hijackers 
will look for telltales of such ships, avoid the dangerous ones and seek 
the easier marks.

I cannot honestly say that any group of players I'm familiar with has shown 
the planning, forethought, and teamwork necessary to get away with 
hijacking a Traveller ship using what I consider standard antihijacking 
measures and more than a dozen parsecs inside Imperial borders.  I can also 
honestly say that I can envision many ways in which a group of players 
_could_ succeed if only they didn't insist on being such "cowboys".

So, IMTU hijacking can and does happen, particularly near or outside the 
borders of the major interstellar polities.  But players would be foolish 
to try it themselves.  And the standard shipboard safeguards are designed 
to keep crews composed of people like my players from getting themselves or 
others inadvertently killed.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Who wants an atom laser?
Message-ID: <DAV60c7vtdFq7ImxUkM000015b1@hotmail.com>

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/20mar_newmatter.htm

And how useful would one be in space combat?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:14:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:14:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Who wants an atom laser?
In-Reply-To: <DAV60c7vtdFq7ImxUkM000015b1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018289637.113.ajackson@ping>

Texas Redshift writes:
> http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/20mar_newmatter.htm
> 
> And how useful would one be in space combat?

Since they require working at the temperature of a bose-einstein condensate,
not very; the beam would move incredibly slowly, and have a very low energy
content.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGMEANCFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408033711.7417D27A19@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408135946.02824dd0@pop.wizard.net>

At 09:47 AM 4/8/02 -0600, you wrote:
>I was reading an article recently by a US Army surgeon who served in Vietnam
>(Martin Fackler).  He found that the 7.62x39 would penetrate 29 inches of
>ballistic gelatin, the 5.56x45 (M193) penetrates 13+ inches, and the 7.62x51
>penetrates 25 inches (all FMJ).  Although the 7.62x39 had the deepest
>penetration, it produced the least devestating wound.  The bullet
>penetrated, turned around, and then exited.  He says, from his experience in
>Vietnam, the "average uncomplicated thigh wound was about what one would
>expect from a low-powered handgun: a small, punctate entrance and exit wound
>with minimal intervening muscle disruption."  The US 7.62x51 produced an
>uncomplicated wound profile like the 7.26x39.  The 5.56 produced a pretty
>devestating wound, because the bullet would, as it yawed, split in half,
>with the base fragmenting into a number of smaller projectiles.  This
>reduced penetration, but made a big hole (up to 5" in diameter).  Velocity
>had to be at least 2700 fps for the bullet to fragment (muzzle velocity with
>a M16 is like 3200+), and no fragmentation took place until the bullet had
>penetrated 4-5" of tissue.

With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to 
the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300 
feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the 
government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting.

I did all my reading on this topic over a dozen years ago, but I seem to 
recall that there has been plenty of reliable material published that 
debunked the notion of the magical differences causing the 5.56 to tumble, 
etc. when no other bullets were able to achieve the same effect.  I said 
that very poorly.  What I mean is that government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam 
had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other 
assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.  Including poorer 
accuracy.  When combat took place at very limited range, this was less of a 
problem.  Plus the fact that most combatants on either side had a tendency 
to cease fighting when they received more than a superficial wound, unless 
they were heroes or tactical circumstances were desperate.  Sort of 
analagous to playing touch football instead of normal football.  You don't 
have to tackle someone to bring them down, just touch them with both hands 
and they're required to stop running and the play is over.  Contrary to the 
popular image, lots of infantry combat in Viet Nam took place at pretty 
long range.  A sort of contest of wimps, I guess, between the fairly 
lightweight and unstable 5.56 and the more substantial but lower speed 7.62x39.

Let us please leave as a separate thread the discussion of whether aimed 
rifle fire is any different in battlefield effectiveness from unaimed 
fire.  Except to note that _if_ you are an unmodified adherent of the 
theory popular among many experts that there is no difference, then by 
corollary it shouldn't matter whether the rifle used is accurate or 
not.  Continuing to look at that corollary, if two different rifles have 
the same range, inflict equivalent damage on the human body at that range, 
and penetrate cover and concealment equally, then accuracy won't make a 
significant difference in the vast majority of fights at long range.

Please let us not debate the validity of that theory (again) here.  And 
certainly don't ask _me_ to defend that theory, regardless of how many 
people with more knowledge than I have may argue convincingly in its 
favor.  But if you wish to comment on the corollaries I propose above, then 
I think that is virgin territory for us to debate.

>Interestingly, German 7.62x51 bullets have a thinner jacket, and that round
>would fragment like the 5.56.
>
>I have read before that 5.56 soft points have pathetic penetration in
>tissue, but 308 caliber soft points certainly get good penetration and
>produce enormous wounds.  Bullet construction seems to be critical in
>producing wounds; that seems to be largely ignored in Traveller other than
>HE and DS rounds.
>
>I wonder, does the Imperium follow the Geneva convention regarding FMJ
>rounds?

This last part has put your finger on a very important point.  I'm quite 
sure the Geneva Conventions are long since defunct in Milieu 0 and onward, 
although that's just my ever-humble opinion.  ;->  And yes, projectile 
design has a _lot_ to do with ballistics, at least when talking about 
infantry or hunting weapons.

Recently, Tod Glenn seems to have made the most articulate explanations on 
the TML for why gauss weapons will be the infantry weapons of choice at 
tech levels that permit them.  The explanations include convincing reasons 
for typical gauss ammo to both penetrate armor and damage human bodies very 
well without needing a variety of fiendish projectile designs to achieve 
the intended effect.  NB that the projectile needs to be travelling at a 
velocity greater than 1,450 meters per second in order to do all 
this.  Sorry, Tod, to single you out by name but you have indeed been the 
most articulate, informative, and convincing poster on that thread and I 
believe in giving credit where it is due.  :->

Canonical gauss weapons get muzzle velocities well in excess of 1,450 m/s, 
but I am too lazy at the moment to look up the information required to 
calculate how far they will travel down range before falling below that 
important velocity.  But you don't have to be Isaac Newton to realize it's 
plenty far enough to be a useful military longarm.  And that even a long, 
skinny piece of iron travelling at say 800 m/s is something you'd rather 
have not hit you.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 12:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 11:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408144051.02823ba0@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert Boleyn responds to me on the continuing thread:
>On 8 Apr 2002 at 0:22, laning wrote:
>
> > Which brings to mind that I've always found the TO&E for military units
> > in Traveller to be too simple, and probably underequipped.  With no
> > provision whatever for logistics.  I'd put a regiment of my Marines up
> > against the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles and the Marines would win
> > because of their balanced organization and integral combat and
> > logistical support, despite their major technological disadvantage.
>
>I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were
>based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped
>their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its
>subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its
>companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it
>belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles,
>field ovens, etc.

The missing TO&E elements that I'm most troubled by are indirect fire 
support weapons and special weapons.  No Auto RAM grenade launchers, no 
light mortars, no heavy machine guns, no antiarmor weapons.  That sort of 
thing.  We can always at least pretend that things like field ovens are 
held by dedicated support units that are outside the battalion or regiment 
level.  I'm also troubled by the lack of staff officers and troops.  There 
is no Logistics, Intelligence, or Operations section in any of the 
battalions or regiments I can recall.  Even the Soviets and the Chinese 
haven't simplified so much that there is no Logistics staff at regimental 
level.  But the biggest problem for me is the lack of supporting arms that 
you'd expect from TL 12 and TL 14 or 15 organizations.


>I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
>the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
>used to supply and support its troops.

Yeah, it's unclear to me exactly what mission the Milieu 1100 Imperial army 
and marines are tailored to.  Fully mobilized general warfare against 
opponents like the Outworld Coalition?  Internal control and 
policing?  Border defense against pocket empires and pirates?  And just how 
much orbital supremacy do they count on achieving and maintaining?  Perhaps 
all they expect from their regiments is for them to be glorified armed 
reconnaissance sufficient to get ortillery observers to bring accurate fire 
onto important targets and then accept the surrender of local opposition 
commanders.  I am comfortable with that sort of scenario happening a lot, 
but certainly not all, of the time.  But even so, the regiments would be 
much better off as true combined arms teams, not just a bunch of mobile 
riflemen.

I'm something of a so-called grognard gamer at this point, and maybe my 
desire for more detailed TO&Es is the incipient miniatures player in me.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 13:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 12:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
 <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>

Doug Berry says:

>GT Ground Forces has complete brigade and regiment TO&Es for the Unified 
>Armies of the Imperium and the Imperial Marine Force.  I spent most of my 
>time developing the support units, and much of the Operations chapter is 
>dedicated to issues of supply and support.
>
>The Standard Issue chapter has the 30,000dton Keith-class brigade 
>transport, along with its six Nakerth-class landers.. 1,200 tons each, 
>carrying a full combat battalion to a world's surface. There is also the 
>Caen-class dropship, the standard 1,200 transport for the Imperial Marines.
>
>Among the vehicles included are a recovery sled, a heavy G-Carrier, and an 
>engineering sled.

It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and 
equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really 
good work being done there.

The Keith-class was named in honor?  Well done.  :->

If I were the Imperium, I wouldn't bother to build standard troop 
transports that carry less than a complete battalion.  Brigades or 
divisions would have logistical elements that are more forward on the 
battlefield, and most of the logistical tail on the ground would be at 
corps level or higher.  It sounds like the Keith class represents pretty 
similar thinking.  :->

I think there is a very important, but still subsidiary, role for ships 
that transport and land Imperial Marine companies and it sounds like you 
think the same way.  You're probably aware that the US considers the Marine 
battalion to be the standard chunk to embark and deploy, plus full 
supporting elements.  But there are a lot of ways in which they are poor 
analogues for Imperial Marines.

Your grav sleds make a lot of sense.  I bet you have ambulance sleds, aid 
station sleds, and field kitchen sleds too?

Finally, I've been meaning for a long time to compliment you on the sig 
about embracing fascism because the uniforms look cool.  Nice.
:->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 13:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 12:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:04:22PM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net> <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020408130651.A1686@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:04:22PM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and 
> equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really 
> good work being done there.

It's probably a better investment than anything in the CT family...

GURPS is actually pretty nice.  I'm still hoping for GURPS: 1889
(first, use every cinematic rule...).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 13:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 12:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <20020408130651.A1686@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
 <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408153253.02eaa320@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl replies to me:
>On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:04:22PM -0400, laning wrote:
> >
> > It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and
> > equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really
> > good work being done there.
>
>It's probably a better investment than anything in the CT family...

But I already own everything in the CT family.  :->

Except a couple of alien modules, dangit.  I'm getting pretty strung out 
waiting for the reprint from Far Future!

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
Message-ID: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning says
>
>But I already own everything in the CT family.  :->
>
I have that, the reprints, and everything that Leading Edge 
ever printed for Phoenix Command.

And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as 
PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.

I've noticed that with skill resolution or combat resolution 
systems, you've got too simple (CT), or simply inaccurate 
with too much potatoes (GURPS), or wildly inaccurate with 
long weapon lists (Rifts), or terribly accurate but nearly 
unplayable unless you are all gearheads with 12 hours to do 
60 seconds of combat (PCCS).

Friends, there has to be something better. Something that is 
a compromise between CT and PCCS, that doesn't make gross 
errors, that's as quick to play as Shellshock, and now Doug 
will beat me with a penguin....

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam Draper)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>

laning@wizard.net wrote:

>With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to
>the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300
>feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the
>government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting."

I have not heard this before about Vietnam era ammo.  I can tell you that
current production military production Lake City and Winchester ammo is
meeting mil-spec (3200+ fps for M193 (for M16A1s) and 3000+ fps for M855
(for M16A2s)).  The army still buys M16A1 ammo for rifles still in service
with the National Guard.  It is not match ammo, but the accuracy is pretty
good.  Certainly good enough to hit a torso at 500 yards with iron sights.

>government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam
>had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other
>assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.  Including poorer
>accuracy.

This guy Facker's experiences were exactly the opposite.  Most of the
comlaints I have heard about the early M16 stems from the poor reliability,
which was a result of the Army using the wrong kind of powder.  There is
also a pretty big prejudice against the smaller caliber, which is somewhat
understandable given that few states allow hunters to use .223 on big game.
And deer do not shoot back.  But the 7.62x39 is pretty similar ballistically
to the venerable 30/30; with FMJ bullets it would hardly be a death ray
either.

That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than the
AK-47 or even the M14.

>Let us please leave as a separate thread the discussion of whether aimed
>rifle fire is any different in battlefield effectiveness from unaimed
>fire.

Like I said above, the M16 is a very accurate platform.  It will make pretty
small holes once the muzzle velocity falls below 2700 fps (about 15-200
yards).  Fortunately, like you said, most opponents will take a powder once
they are shot, no matter how severe the wound.

>Recently, Tod Glenn seems to have made the most articulate explanations on
>the TML for why gauss weapons will be the infantry weapons of choice at
>tech levels that permit them.

That is very interesting.  I have read in tests that little darts at high
velocities are remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do
little tissue damage.  But odd things happen at high velocities.  I'll see
if I can dig up my source.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:15:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:15:38 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
In-Reply-To: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D7483C.37BB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 12:59 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as
> PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.

Please enlighten me.  PCCS?
> 
> I've noticed that with skill resolution or combat resolution
> systems, you've got too simple (CT), or simply inaccurate
> with too much potatoes (GURPS), or wildly inaccurate with
> long weapon lists (Rifts), or terribly accurate but nearly
> unplayable unless you are all gearheads with 12 hours to do
> 60 seconds of combat (PCCS).

That's the GM's jog, isn't it?  Personally, I like a combat system that can
be handled with a couple of die rolls.  I use modified CT and fill in the
missing details

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
In-Reply-To: <B8D7483C.37BB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018297856.1051.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 4/8/02 12:59 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as
> > PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.
> 
> Please enlighten me.  PCCS?

I'd guess on phoenix command.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 14:56:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 13:56:04 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
Message-ID: <200204082055.DQH04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn asks
>
>Please enlighten me.  PCCS?

Phoenix Command Combat System, 4th Edition, with all 
supplements. A product of the now defunct Leading Edge Games.

>
>That's the GM's jog, isn't it?  Personally, I like a combat 
>system that can be handled with a couple of die rolls.  I 
>use modified CT and fill in the missing details
>

The rolls are quick enough for the experienced GM using PCCS -
 it's the players who choke on it if they don't like having 
to plan their actions to the Nth detail, or look through 
tables, or recalculate this and that.  It comes with a 
stripped down version as well, but if you had bought PCCS for 
the realism, the stripped version bites.

Also, the wounding and incapacitation tends to be tedious.  
You do receive points of damage, but most of the time it's so 
far off the scale you just fall down and die later.  Rifle 
rounds in particular will just *do* you.  One hit from a 
Garand in the torso and you're going to die if the medic 
doesn't stabilize you (that's if you didn't die outright).  
The odds of a graze are not as high as you would like.  And 
you *can* kill someone with a .22 pistol shot to the eye, if 
you're lucky.  Try and kill someone with a body pistol in 
CT.  It won't happen to the average character.  OTOH, you 
could be hit by two people who empty their Walther PPKs into 
you in PCCS, and if you're hit just right, you won't fall 
down until later.  Gives you that extra time to point that 
Super 90 in their direction and make them eat it.

The advanced small arms damage tables from the game came from 
Computerman, a model you may recall.  Now try that by hand 
instead of by computer.

Not like some games where you get popped with 3D6 and keep 
running.

You can take it to extremes: bullets have "time of flight", 
weapons have a maximum ballistic accuracy, a maximum aim time 
beyond which aiming does no good, some weapons come to aim 
quicker but less accurately than others, while others may be 
slower but far more sure.  Excellent shotgun rules. There are 
good rules for leadership and planning.  Extensive animal 
rules, which are quite good.  Hand to hand is not so good, 
but you'll be shot before you get that close.  Blind fire, 3-
round burst, it goes on and on.  If you're a weapon gearhead, 
this is definitely the combat system for you. My favorite 
supplement has riot control weapons (plastic coated steel 
balls and rubber baton rounds), claymore, miniguns, 
flamethrowers, etc.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:17:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:17:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408170314.024b6258@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:46 PM 4/8/2002, Sam Draper wrote:
>I have read in tests that little darts at high velocities are remarkably 
>innefective.  They just punch through and do little tissue damage.

 From what I recall reading, the 60's era Army tests with high-velocity 
flechettes in the SPIW program.  This weapon was proposed by AAI, and fired 
65 gram steel flechette at high velocity (about 4800fps).  It was supposed 
to be quite effective at energy transfer - the dart would deform on hitting 
the target, and cause massive wounding.  In the 80's, Styr's Advanced 
Combat Rifle used the same general type of projectile.  In both projects, 
difficulties in manufacturing the ammunition led to relatively low accuracy.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408170314.024b6258@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>

Derek Wildstar writes:
> At 03:46 PM 4/8/2002, Sam Draper wrote:
> >I have read in tests that little darts at high velocities are remarkably 
> >innefective.  They just punch through and do little tissue damage.
> 
>  From what I recall reading, the 60's era Army tests with high-velocity 
> flechettes in the SPIW program.  This weapon was proposed by AAI, and fired
>  65 gram steel flechette at high velocity (about 4800fps).

I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).  A 65 gram
projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 2:21 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).  A 65 gram
> projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.


I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:53:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:53:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408170314.024b6258@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175151.020da5c8@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:21 PM 4/8/2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain

Probably.  ;-)  I'm at work, so I'm working from memory ...


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175242.01e90560@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:47 PM 4/8/2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
>I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.

That would be the one - I couldn't remember it's number (all I could 
remember was the name of the program, "SPIW".  I vaguely recall that AAI 
built the initial weapon, and that one of the armories made improved 
versions - but they had trouble with the tolerances on the ammo, and 
couldn't make it reliable enough for economical manufacture, let alone 
issue - so the M16 got the nod).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 15:56:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr  8 14:56:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175242.01e90560@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:47 PM 4/8/2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
>I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.

That would be the one - I couldn't remember it's number (all I could 
remember was the name of the program, "SPIW".  I vaguely recall that AAI 
built the initial weapon, and that one of the armories made improved 
versions - but they had trouble with the tolerances on the ammo, and 
couldn't make it reliable enough for economical manufacture, let alone 
issue - so the M16 got the nod).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 16:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 15:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408175151.020da5c8@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <B8D760BD.37C1C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 2:52 PM, Derek Wildstar at wildstar@qrc.com wrote:

> At 05:21 PM 4/8/2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain
> 
> Probably.  ;-)  I'm at work, so I'm working from memory ...

Aha!  Don't have your copy of the Stevens and Ezell book (The deadliest
weapon that never was). How fortuitous that I have that little factoid
memorized.  My wife says I have the gum brain.  <g>
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 16:17:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Mon Apr  8 15:17:35 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Ship Storage
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17920@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

	Ship's Storage -  it seems to me that a starship would need a cetain
amount of space set aside to store various equipment, provisions, and
other sundries.  You wouldn't want to use the Cargo space for it, since
that would eat into your profits.  Again, has anyone seen or worked up
rules for the minimum size of a ship's storage area, based (presumably)
on the number of ship's crew and other factors?

Mikey:
I figured that Life Support for X days covers food
space/requirements/storage. Anything extra above that for life support is 1
ton = 150 man days of food/supplies (based on Belt Strike????)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 16:44:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 15:44:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408144051.02823ba0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB2C59D.18860.53D550@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 14:53, laning wrote:

> The missing TO&E elements that I'm most troubled by are indirect fire
> support weapons and special weapons.  No Auto RAM grenade launchers, no
> light mortars, no heavy machine guns, no antiarmor weapons.  That sort
> of thing.  We can always at least pretend that things like field ovens
> are held by dedicated support units that are outside the battalion or
> regiment level.  I'm also troubled by the lack of staff officers and
> troops.  There is no Logistics, Intelligence, or Operations section in
> any of the battalions or regiments I can recall.  Even the Soviets and
> the Chinese haven't simplified so much that there is no Logistics staff
> at regimental level.  But the biggest problem for me is the lack of
> supporting arms that you'd expect from TL 12 and TL 14 or 15
> organizations.

Looking at the TO they have artillery at Regimental and Battalion 
level, armed with MRLs and missile launchers. The APCs carry 6 tac 
missiles (except fire support models which have VRF gauss MGs instead) 
and thirty smaller fire & forget missiles. They also have the use of 
three SDBs for ortillery support. All this from _The Spinward Marches 
Campaign_. Even so they seem to be under equipped with indirect fire 
support (more like a Soviet tank regiment than anything else). I 
suspect (though CT didn't say much on this AFAIK) that good point-
defence systems could have a lot to do with this - you'd want to use a 
lot of direct fire and _fast_ rockets and missiles in such an 
environment.

They also have 10 Ramparts, for local aerospace superoirity missions 
and recon I presume. I'm not sure of the utility of these, to be 
honest.

SMC doesn't say what the troopies are equiped with, but Striker II 
(which has the same TO listed) tells us that they're all in TL-14 heavy 
battledress and have fusion rifles and tac missiles in each 5-man 
squad.

> >I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
> >the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
> >used to supply and support its troops.
> 
> Yeah, it's unclear to me exactly what mission the Milieu 1100 Imperial
> army and marines are tailored to.  Fully mobilized general warfare
> against opponents like the Outworld Coalition?

That would be the Army, but not all of it. I suspect you'd need the TO 
of one of the units used in the Seige of Terra to get a look at an 
Imperial 'assault' or 'tank' unit.

> Internal control and
> policing?  Border defense against pocket empires and pirates?  And just
> how much orbital supremacy do they count on achieving and maintaining?

All of it, of course.

> Perhaps all they expect from their regiments is for them to be glorified
> armed reconnaissance sufficient to get ortillery observers to bring
> accurate fire onto important targets and then accept the surrender of
> local opposition commanders.  I am comfortable with that sort of
> scenario happening a lot, but certainly not all, of the time.  But even
> so, the regiments would be much better off as true combined arms teams,
> not just a bunch of mobile riflemen.

They do have a lot of organic firepower, and a decent number of tanks. 
Again it looks more like a Soviet unit than a Western one (MR in this 
case) - lots of organic direct-fire and anti-tank support, and the 
artillery held higher up. And those tanks are really big and nasty, 
BTW.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
References: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB220F3.A0C5FF6A@premier.net>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Friends, there has to be something better. Something that is
> a compromise between CT and PCCS, that doesn't make gross
> errors, that's as quick to play as Shellshock, and now Doug
> will beat me with a penguin....
> 
Nah, he'll just hit you with a rolled-up copy of _At Close Quarters_....

http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?BITSRACQ

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
In-Reply-To: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020408193202.00e31ac0@buffnet.net>

At 03:59 PM 4/8/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>laning says
>>
>>But I already own everything in the CT family.  :->
>>
>I have that, the reprints, and everything that Leading Edge 
>ever printed for Phoenix Command.
>
>And I have yet to see any combat system that's as accurate as 
>PCCS.  Mind you, most people have trouble playing it.

Two comments:

1) PCCS can be streamlined with the use of Excel
2) PCCS doesn't differentiate between someone who knows how to use a pistol
versus one who uses a shotgun


If you want to, build a simple database using excel and have a single page
that has the following entries:

Weapon
aim point
aim time
range
Stance
daylight

Die roll to hit

From that, it should be simple enough to determine what the results are...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408232954.14194.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
But yeah, the unit suffered from Hollywooditis. Who
issues a support weapon you have to use standing up?
END QUOTE

If you gave me a support weapon that had thermal
seeking rounds I would use it standing up ;) And
remember they where colonial marines. Probably didn't
get as much training as they should.

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <20020408233500.27629.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
>>Biometrics, at least lower level ones, can be
>>defeated rather easily by someone ruthless enough.
>>That hand/finger/eye doesn't need to be attached to
>>the owner to be usable. It just needs to be fresh...

> I see we've met some of the same player characters. 
:->

Alas, I understand that there have actually been a
couple of real world cases of this already. And it's
been a standard dodge in fiction for *at least* 50
years.
END QUOTE

I read in the paper that a finger print scanner that
tells if the finger is a live by scanning under the
top layers of skin has been developed. This will
bugger up all those PC's who chop of peoples fingers
;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
Message-ID: <200204082337.DQN01624@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

hal@buffnet.net  says
>Two comments:
>
>1) PCCS can be streamlined with the use of Excel
>2) PCCS doesn't differentiate between someone who knows how 
>to use a pistol versus one who uses a shotgun
>
That's up to the referee to divide gun combat skills. It 
would appear that the designers left the "roleplaying" part 
of the game in a half-baked condition.  However, I haven't 
had any trouble mapping the system to CT skills.

>If you want to, build a simple database using excel and have 
>a single page that has the following entries:
>
>Weapon
>aim point
>aim time
>range
>Stance
>daylight
>
>Die roll to hit
>
That's not the problem so much as the players being happy 
with the action sequencing and pre-planned movement (in the 
advanced rules).  Most players are uncomfortable with action 
counts to that level of detail (a much higher level of detail 
than At Close Quarters or Snapshot).  

I've written an application in Smalltalk to do the whole 
firing and damage sequence - that was easy.  But it didn't 
solve the player's dislike of millisecond level detail.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 17:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 16:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020408235622.20414.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
We'll gladly take you, son.  You don't have to be a
U.S. citizen to be a U.S. Marine.  I shared a barracks
room for a year with a Lebanese Christian 
who was still a Lebanese citizen.  Contact the closest
American consulate if you're serious.  Be sure to be
able to do lots of pull ups from a dead hang and run
three miles in under say 24 minutes.

And when you get off the plane to go to the Marine
Corps Recruit Depot, just remember these two words: 
"yellow footprints".  <WEG>

Much more serious advice.  Possibly the most important
advice you will ever get in your life.  Find an MOS
that gives you the training and expertise you want to
use in your civilian career after you get it, and get
that guaranteed in writing and signed by an officer. 
Do not accept any talk no matter how reasonable or
persuasive as a substitute.  Get the MOS you want, 
guaranteed.  In writing.  In writing.

--Laning
END QUOTE

Well I would try that except my mother would kill me
;)
She worries enough about me joining the reserves here,
let alone the regular army or god forbid the USMC. She
really worries that with all that's happening there is
going to be another big war. I will however take your
advice on getting my MOS guaranteed in writing from an
officer. I wouldn't want to end up cooking :) I may
even move down near Sydney so I can join a cavalry
unit. That way I wouldn't have to be a dirty rotten
leg :)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 18:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Mon Apr  8 17:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
In-Reply-To: <200204082337.DQN01624@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHMEDNDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

>> John Kwon
>> But it didn't solve the player's dislike of millisecond level detail.

Having played PCCS, I like the system a great deal.  However, actual use
becomes more of a simulation as opposed to an RPG, which is my take on why
people dont like it.  It is hard to come up with a good balance as players
want a wide spectrum of "realism" in their games.

As for the skills in the game, the rules were always meant to be added into
other systems as a combat overlay.  They just say "Gun skill" and leave the
referee to decide if it is for all Pistols, a specific pistol, or simply all
firearms.

Justin


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 18:32:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 17:32:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Phoenix Command Combat System
In-Reply-To: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHMEDNDJAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
References: <200204082337.DQN01624@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020408203714.00e31ac0@buffnet.net>

At 05:23 PM 4/8/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>>> John Kwon
>>> But it didn't solve the player's dislike of millisecond level detail.
>
>Having played PCCS, I like the system a great deal.  However, actual use
>becomes more of a simulation as opposed to an RPG, which is my take on why
>people dont like it.  It is hard to come up with a good balance as players
>want a wide spectrum of "realism" in their games.
>
>As for the skills in the game, the rules were always meant to be added into
>other systems as a combat overlay.  They just say "Gun skill" and leave the
>referee to decide if it is for all Pistols, a specific pistol, or simply all
>firearms.

At one point in time, I created a set of rules for using PCCS with GURPS.
It worked relatively well.  My players still remember the time they caught
a military patrol in a ravine.  They had two laws plus assorted personal
fire arms (was an Aftermath like scenario).  Took out the radioman plus the
officer, along with the squad weapon user.  After that, it was mostly a mop
up.  The trick to using GURPS with PCCS is to use Movement points as action
points.  The average DX guy using guns with no weapon skill is a skill
rating of 7.  Someone marginally trained in the weapon is skill 10.  The
chart of course continues from there...

         Hal

PS - if you have the sci-fi version of the weapons from PCCS, it makes for
an interesting mix ;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 18:35:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 17:35:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB2DFC4.13707.BA0366@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 13:46, Sam Draper wrote:

> That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
> because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than
> the AK-47 or even the M14.

In that case the M14 must be considerably less accurate than the old M1 
Garand its based on. IMER the M1 is at least as accurate as the M16A1, 
assuming similar conditions.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
References: <20020408190107.C377927A35@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408181400.027f5840@pop.wizard.net>

At 01:46 PM 4/8/02 -0600, you wrote:
>laning@wizard.net wrote:
>
> >With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to
> >the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300
> >feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the
> >government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting."
>
>I have not heard this before about Vietnam era ammo.

In the 1980s also.  Marines I knew would take samples home and take them 
apart.  I believe it was the sniper school at Quantico where one of the 
officers told me that the bullets were 52 grains, on average, rather than 
the 55 grains the government was paying for.  And there wasn't as much 
powder as there was supposed to be, but don't recall the specific numbers 
now.  I seem to recall reading something similar somewhere at the time, 
maybe in 'Soldier of Fortune'?  Anyway, I was told by the people who 
randomly checked the ammo that reached the front-line troops that we were 
typically getting 2100 fps, and it wasn't very unusual to get under 1800 
fps.  All of this is subject to my memory working correctly, which isn't 
just a boilerplate warning, I have significant problems with it.  The same 
kind of scams take place in government purchasing all the time.  Once the 
initial production runs have been accepted, the quality checks are very 
coarse and easy to see coming.  And possibly there's some graft at work, 
too.  Everything from clothing being a little lighter weight than paid for 
to rations being a little lighter.  An unscrupulous contractor often finds 
it's easy to increase their profit margin by five percent or so, this way.


>   I can tell you that
>current production military production Lake City and Winchester ammo is
>meeting mil-spec (3200+ fps for M193 (for M16A1s) and 3000+ fps for M855
>(for M16A2s)).

How is this data verified or acquired, please?  I'm just curious to get 
another data point, not being accusatory or argumentative.  :->

>   The army still buys M16A1 ammo for rifles still in service
>with the National Guard.  It is not match ammo, but the accuracy is pretty
>good.  Certainly good enough to hit a torso at 500 yards with iron sights.

We were all doing that with our crappy ammo in the 1980s.  It's easy when 
they hold nice and still and you can take your time firing.

> >government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam
> >had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other
> >assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.  Including poorer
> >accuracy.
>
>This guy Facker's experiences were exactly the opposite.  Most of the
>comlaints I have heard about the early M16 stems from the poor reliability,
>which was a result of the Army using the wrong kind of powder.

Partly.  What I hear mentioned only rarely is that any really high velocity 
weapon necessarily requires closer working tolerances for moving 
parts.  That means it doesn't take much foreign material or carbon 
accumulation to jam or slow down a moving part.  Which leads us to the 
major difference between the M-16 and the M-16A1, addition of the forward 
assist to help clear jams and addition of the ejection port cover to help 
keep foreign material away from the bolt.

>   There is
>also a pretty big prejudice against the smaller caliber, which is somewhat
>understandable given that few states allow hunters to use .223 on big game.
>And deer do not shoot back.  But the 7.62x39 is pretty similar ballistically
>to the venerable 30/30; with FMJ bullets it would hardly be a death ray
>either.

The talk about pros and cons of various infantry weapons is so larded with 
prejudices that I figure none of us who open our mouths on the topic are 
completely free of some prejudice on it.  And many are really bad.  John 
Wayne smashing the M-16 against a tree in 'The Green Berets' and calling it 
a child's plastic toy and blaming it for the death of his troops.  Well, 
they couldn't smash a real M-16 against a tree because alloy and fiberglass 
is a lot tougher than what they thought of it back in 1966.  The director 
had to get an actual plastic toy imitation of an M-16 so that "the Duke" 
could smash it.  And there are at least tens of thousands of people who to 
this day think it's a cheap plastic piece of junk because of that 
movie.  People who carried one in a combat zone themselves and should know 
better.


>That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
>because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than the
>AK-47 or even the M14.
>
> >Let us please leave as a separate thread the discussion of whether aimed
> >rifle fire is any different in battlefield effectiveness from unaimed
> >fire.
>
>Like I said above, the M16 is a very accurate platform.  It will make pretty
>small holes once the muzzle velocity falls below 2700 fps (about 15-200
>yards).  Fortunately, like you said, most opponents will take a powder once
>they are shot, no matter how severe the wound.
The muzzle velocity remains the same, regardless of how far away the target 
is.  Muzzle velocity is the speed of the bullet as it leaves the 
muzzle.  The projectile velocity declines as it loses momentum from air 
friction and succumbing to gravity.  Muzzle velocity for government ammo 
for the A1 was just over 2700 fps.  I should be able to remember the 
precise figure, I thought that was indelibly inscribed in memory.  Had 
trouble the other day remembering my EAS date too!  Imagine that one.  I 
guess the Marine Corps Birthday will be the next to go, followed by my own 
birthday.  Hand loaders can get 3250 fps with a 56-grain bullet.  Anyway, 
it shot pretty accurately for me on the rifle range even on some fairly 
windy days.  And my score went up about 4 or 5 points when they gave me the A2.

The 5.56 in each of its incarnations ended up being a distinct improvement 
over the M-1 carbine in performance, and a lot more manageable than those 
big ol' M-14s.  The days I had to go on long runs with a rifle at port arms 
I was damned glad that the M-14 was before my time, let me tell you!  As I 
recall learning it, the story of the M-16 becoming the standard US infantry 
rifle was as much politics as anything else.  It found its way to being 
proposed for sale to military allies in Southeast Asia and other places 
where the average soldier was much smaller and lighter than the average US 
soldier (because of its lighter weight and lower recoil), wound up being 
used by special American units that worked closely with said allies as much 
for compatibility as anything, then was chosen as a suitable "carbine" 
replacement for troops in vehicles and such who only need something for 
self defense, and finally ended up being given to everyone in the name of 
standardization.  At almost each step on that path, something more was done 
to nerf the weapon.  I am sure I don't have all the details right, but 
that's the gist of it.  The A2 model was basically a step towards 
un-nerfing it, and giving it back some of the power it had in one of its 
earlier forms.  That decision too, was as much politics as anything 
else.  The official reason given was compatibility with the 5.56 ammo used 
by NATO allies.

Basically, the M-16 is a good varmint rifle on steroids, with the furniture 
and "accessories" suitable for a good assault rifle.  Just like the M-1 
Garand or M-14 are good deer and other medium game rifles on steroids, with 
improved furniture and "accessories" for their day and suitable for the 
battlefield.

I don't think it's a stupid idea to take a varmint rifle and turn it into a 
combat rifle.  It does have its advantages.  But I'd feel more sanguine 
about firing a 130-, 150- or 180-grain bullet from something chambered for 
7.62 NATO or .303 British than a 55-grain bullet.  Like most other things, 
it's a combination of trade offs because you can't have one thing that will 
give you all the attributes you wish for.


> >Recently, Tod Glenn seems to have made the most articulate explanations on
> >the TML for why gauss weapons will be the infantry weapons of choice at
> >tech levels that permit them.
>
>That is very interesting.  I have read in tests that little darts at high
>velocities are remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do
>little tissue damage.  But odd things happen at high velocities.  I'll see
>if I can dig up my source.

We're talking about gauss weapon projectiles moving at speeds well in 
excess of 1,450 meters per second or faster, not feet per second.  Just to 
remind everyone of the perspective.  By way of comparison, the nominal 
2,710 feet/second muzzle velocity of the old M-16 is only 826 meters/second.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408211451.027f3ec0@pop.wizard.net>

John Kwon's soul quests desperately for completion:

>I've noticed that with skill resolution or combat resolution
>systems, you've got too simple (CT), or simply inaccurate
>with too much potatoes (GURPS), or wildly inaccurate with
>long weapon lists (Rifts), or terribly accurate but nearly
>unplayable unless you are all gearheads with 12 hours to do
>60 seconds of combat (PCCS).
>
>Friends, there has to be something better.

Perfect opportunity for computer-aided gaming.  Combat software with the 
terrain map, weather, characters, equipment, etc. and the player tells the 
ref what he wants his character to do and the ref tells the 
computer.  Enter the moves for all characters, then hit Enter and find out 
what happens.  All input and output should go through the ref, so the ref 
can alter the cut & dried calculations to conform with what the referee 
believes or wants to manipulate.

Nobody seems interesting in writing that software because they're either 
writing traditional RPG rules, miniatures rules, or a complete computer 
game.  I must say it's hard to think of a business model where the 
developers will get paid more than nickels and dimes, so it's hard to blame 
folks for not doing it.

What's needed is a Nonprofit Institute for the Advancement of Game Design, 
with good funding.  There is something a little bit like that out there 
now, but it focuses on complete computer games and has various troubles 
including funding.  Or an open-source movement for computer-aided gaming 
that's widespread, the way the Linus open-source movement is widespread.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:26:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:26:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408180047.009f1d00@mindspring.com>

At 12:32 AM 4/9/02 +1200, you wrote:

>I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were
>based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped
>their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its
>subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its
>companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it
>belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles,
>field ovens, etc.

Give the man a see-gar.  I based the Imperial Army units in GF on the 
standards for Soviet units of similar size and missions. A Motorized Rifle 
Regiment was supposed to be a self-contained combat unit, able to fight on 
its own without the constant need to be tied to higher command just to 
perform its basic mission.

>I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
>the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
>used to supply and support its troops.

Remember what they say about assumptions...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:27:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:27:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <7e.25ba1e1c.29e329fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408180410.00a05160@mindspring.com>

At 01:14 PM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>What about the Sergeant (Apone?) - I thought the role of an NCO was to 
>stop the officers messing everything up? Clearly he has more experience 
>than Gorman and yet he's quite happy to lead his troops into an unknown 
>environment against an unknown force AND he gives all the ammo to one man.

Apone was given a legal order by his commanding officer.  He followed 
it.  Evidently, SOP was to have one man carry all the ammo.  Oops. I'm 
surprised he didn't know that Drake had the extra BFG thingies.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408074304.009ea610@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408021721.0281f5c0@pop.wizard.net>
 <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEOJCGAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408001642.0284c0d0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408181304.009eb5c0@mindspring.com>

At 03:04 PM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>It's a shame I refuse to invest in the different combat system and 
>equipment design system for GT, because clearly there's a lot of really 
>good work being done there.

More than half the book is game neutral.  Just good information about the 
forces.

>The Keith-class was named in honor?  Well done.  :->

The lander's name is the M. Keith's name run through a Vilani name generator.


>If I were the Imperium, I wouldn't bother to build standard troop 
>transports that carry less than a complete battalion.  Brigades or 
>divisions would have logistical elements that are more forward on the 
>battlefield, and most of the logistical tail on the ground would be at 
>corps level or higher.  It sounds like the Keith class represents pretty 
>similar thinking.  :->

Yep.  I had a design for a *divisional* cold-sleep ship, but I had to make 
some space choices.

>I think there is a very important, but still subsidiary, role for ships 
>that transport and land Imperial Marine companies and it sounds like you 
>think the same way.  You're probably aware that the US considers the 
>Marine battalion to be the standard chunk to embark and deploy, plus full 
>supporting elements.  But there are a lot of ways in which they are poor 
>analogues for Imperial Marines.

Credit where credit is due Dpt. The vehicle and ship designs were the work 
of others.. I just put out deign ideas on a mailing list I established for 
the purpose, and we debated the various designs.  The entire 
Sunburst-series missile sleds were really fun to come up with.

>Your grav sleds make a lot of sense.  I bet you have ambulance sleds, aid 
>station sleds, and field kitchen sleds too?

These are simple conversion of the basic G-carrier, much like the US Army 
has these variations for the Hum-vee.'

>Finally, I've been meaning for a long time to compliment you on the sig 
>about embracing fascism because the uniforms look cool.  Nice.

Once again, not mine.  It was uttered on the TML by a soul who asked not to 
be attributed in the sig.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:35:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:35:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408180047.009f1d00@mindspring.com>
References: <3CB23682.24072.6691D1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB2EDB0.4851.F063FB@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 18:03, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 12:32 AM 4/9/02 +1200, you wrote:
> 
> >I've always had the impression that many (most) of the TU units were
> >based on Soviet models, especially for supply. The Soviets equipped
> >their units with enough logistics support for each unit to support its
> >subordinate units, not itself. Thus a battalion would keep its
> >companies supplied, and would in turn be supplied by the Regiment it
> >belonged to. Thus their units always look under-equipped with vehicles,
> >field ovens, etc.
> 
> Give the man a see-gar.  I based the Imperial Army units in GF on the
> standards for Soviet units of similar size and missions. A Motorized
> Rifle Regiment was supposed to be a self-contained combat unit, able to
> fight on its own without the constant need to be tied to higher command
> just to perform its basic mission.

I was actually talking about the SMC and Striker II Imperial units (I 
already knew yours were based of the Soviets, though to me some of them 
look more like a US unit).
 
> >I also suspect that the Imperium assumes that it will have control of
> >the orbitals and local aerospace and that therefore the Navy can be
> >used to supply and support its troops.
> 
> Remember what they say about assumptions...

I never claimed that the Imperium was always right, or omnicompetent. 
:)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:38:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:38:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
Message-ID: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning tasks me
>
>Perfect opportunity for computer-aided gaming.  Combat 
>software with the terrain map, weather, characters, 
>equipment, etc. and the player tells the 
>ref what he wants his character to do and the ref tells the 
>computer.  Enter the moves for all characters, then hit 
>Enter and find out 
>what happens.

There's no reason I couldn't write this.  There's no reason 
it couldn't run over the Internet, either.

Damn you, laning....
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:39:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:39:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408181304.009eb5c0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB2EEB9.12979.F4729E@localhost>

On 8 Apr 2002 at 18:19, Douglas Berry wrote:

> Once again, not mine.  It was uttered on the TML by a soul who asked not
> to be attributed in the sig.

Wasn't that in relation to the Starship Troopers movie?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 19:41:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr  8 18:41:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <200204090139.DQR01653@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>Oops. I'm surprised he didn't know that Drake had the extra 
>BFG thingies.
>

If I had the weapon out of the armory, M-16 or M21 or M24, I 
always had ammunition - even if I had not been issued any, or 
had been ordered to "give it up".
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 20:01:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 19:01:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408211451.027f3ec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:21:16PM -0400
References: <200204081959.DQF05481@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020408211451.027f3ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020408200055.A2997@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:21:16PM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> Nobody seems interesting in writing that software because they're either 
> writing traditional RPG rules, miniatures rules, or a complete computer 
> game.  I must say it's hard to think of a business model where the 
> developers will get paid more than nickels and dimes, so it's hard to blame 
> folks for not doing it.

My business model is I write software I want, then GPL it.  Thus it is
now and forevermore free, and will hopefully be of some use to the
world at large.  I pay for food by another mechanism entirely.

> Or an open-source movement for computer-aided gaming that's
> widespread, the way the Linux open-source movement is widespread.

Well, it's easy enough: start writing.  Linux didn't start out
well-funded; indeed, the vast majority of its development was
_unfunded_.  The whole mechanism is that one writes the kind of
software one wishes to use--then by using it, discovers where the
problems are, and fixes them.  The use of the GPL ensures that anyone
else who fixes a problem is incented to release his (small)
modification to your (major) work.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We English-speaking peoples should keep hold of the essential fact about
foreign languages: They exist to make us laugh.        --John Derbyshire

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 20:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr  8 19:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <3CB2EEB9.12979.F4729E@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408181304.009eb5c0@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408145424.02820270@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408190941.009f9670@mindspring.com>

At 01:38 PM 4/9/02 +1200, you wrote:
>On 8 Apr 2002 at 18:19, Douglas Berry wrote:
>
> > Once again, not mine.  It was uttered on the TML by a soul who asked not
> > to be attributed in the sig.
>
>Wasn't that in relation to the Starship Troopers movie?

Yep.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 20:53:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon Apr  8 19:53:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 08, 2002 12:47:07 AM
Message-ID: <200204090153.g391rtO02801@localhost.uia.net>

> Chemical reaction rates depend strongly on the mass of the atoms. Atoms
> with similar properties (same column in the periodic table) react at
> rates that are strongly connected with their mass differences. 
>
> So the rates might increase dramaticly.

Under, say 99%, inertial suppression, the mass-ratios would still
be the same as under zero suppression.
 
> Molecular collisions in air would result in the molecules stopping,
> rather than rebounding. So the opposing portions of their vectors would
> cancel out. Add in the effects of gravity, and all the air molecules
> would be in a thin layer near the floor. 

But gravity would have less of a pull of the air molecules, being that
they would have a lower apparent mass under inertial suppresion, so
again we're looking at these effects cancelling each other out.

> Thermal effects on the gases get weird too.

I'm not sure how to handle these.

Speaking on the atomic level:
> Then you're dead. Too many of the forces at those levels *do* depend on
> inertia. Lowering inertia raises the *effective* force.

I'm not sure what the effective force is. I've heard of strong, the
weak, the electromagnetic, and gravity. Maybe we should only be
considering these forces and how atoms would be effected different by
a lower constant for inertia across the entire system being considered.
Basically, I'm looking for an effect that would not cancel out. In
the first example you gave, you say that one molecule won't react
properly with another because the former's mass is too low. But what
if both of their masses are lower by the same percentage? In the
second example, you say that atoms bouncing against each other will
tend not to bounce as much under inertial suppression, and will tend
to crowd at the floor. But you fail to consider that gravity will have
less of a pull on inertia-suppressed molecules, so that the crowding
shouldn't occur. I think it would be better to look at really simple
problems in a closed system involving only a pair of atoms to show
how their movements would be changed if BOTH of their apparent masses
were lowered by the same percentage.

If we only look at gravity, I don't see there being any difference
in their movements. Masses fall at the same speed (newton). So inertial
supression should have no effect on gravity. As for the other four
forces, I don't know enough physics to answer that.

> As an example, the reason that water doesn't boil at around -150 F is
> because of Van der waals forces. Compare the boiling points of hydrogen
> oxide, hydrogen sulfide, and so on down that column in the periodic
> table. All of them *but* H2O have very low boiling points. 
>
> Lowering the inertia of the molecules will have the effect of adding
> similar forces. Which will change the physical and chemical properties
> of compounds *drastically*. 

Does this example consider that the entire system is inertially
suppressed to the same percentage, and that all four of the fundamental
forces are effected accordingly?

> >> This still makes for some really weird effects. Consider that the only
> >> work your heart would have to do would be to overcome friction and
> >> viscosity. The mass of the blood wouldn't matter.
> >
> > Except that your heart would also be of a lower apparent mass.
> 
> What's *that* got to do with it? The pumping forces are due to
> contraction of the muscle fibers. The mass of the heart has little
> relevance there. The only effect it'd have (to the first order, anyway)
> is making it *easier* to contract. 

Which is why I'd rather look at really simple systems of only a
pair of atoms, so that all the complicating factors can be taken
out of the way and we can see what would really occur at the most
fundamental level.
 
> > Instead of thinking of a normal pool ball hitting a styrofoam ball,
> > think of one styrofoam ball hitting another one. On the molecular
> > scale, I'm guessing that this would be more akin to what would be
> > happening. -Jim
> 
> Nope. Because you lose the rebound. 

I'm not talking about 100% inertial suppression. I agree that
this would cause a great deal of strangeness, which I don't
really want to examine. For practical purposes, I'm talking about
suppression somewhere between 90% and 99.999%. -Jim
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 21:05:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 20:05:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Scripting help needed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020405074625.009ee8d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20408.200150.0q9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 05:45 AM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>Although my Dante is rusty and my personal sentiments
>>don't agree...
>>
>>"Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."
>
> That's Milton, from "Paradise Lost."
>
> Dante's best line came from The Inferno... the inscription on the gates of 
> Hell.
>
> "I AM THE WAY INTO THE CITY OF WOE
> I AM THE WAY TO A FORSAKEN PEOPLE
> I AM THE WAY INTO ETERNAL SORROW
>
> SACRED JUSTICE MOVED MY ARCHITECT
> I WAS RAISED THERE BY DIVINE OMNIPOTENCE
> PRIMORDIAL LOVE AND ULTIMATE INTELLECT.
>
> ONLY THOSE ELEMENTS TIME CANNOT WEAR
> WERE MADE BEFORE ME, AND BEYOND TIME I STAND.
> ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE."
>
> I want that on the door to my gaming room.. :)

WSounds like the routine I pulled one Halloween when the local <adult>
club I belonged to was having a "play party". 

I'd answer the door, smile at the people and use a sweeping hand
gesture to invite them in as I quoted Dracula (from the movie):

"Enter freely, and of your own will..."

Only a few got it. You could tell by the *look* on their faces and the
way they thought it over for a minute before entering. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 21:06:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 20:06:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Tugs, etc
In-Reply-To: <200204041934.DIV01979@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20408.192730.5x5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I haven't seen many designs for a "tug", a useful vessel for 
> attaching to and moving other larger vessels.  Might also be 
> useful for moving large asteroids that come in from the outer 
> system and pose a hazard to navigation (or even to a planet).
>
> Was just reading
> http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-space-
> menace0404apr04.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnationworld%2Dheadlines
>
> and had a mental picture of some bored tug crew getting 
> orders to move out and push this piece of rock into the sun.

Solar impact trajectories require about half again as much delta-V as a
system escape trajactory.


escape velocity = sqrt(2) * orbital velocity.

Since you have to kill better than 90% of the oribital velocity to hit
the star....

It's *far* simpler to just adjust the orbit to not go near anyplace you
care about or to nudge it into a parking orbit around something.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 21:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon Apr  8 20:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 08, 2002 12:47:07 AM
Message-ID: <200204090209.g3929Gw02878@localhost.uia.net>

Okay, I'm going to post an argument which another friend
just sent me. This might scuttle the idea of inertial
suppression. Let me know what you think.

Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
suppression, they move toward each other much faster
than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
I wrong? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 22:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr  8 21:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <200204051636.DKL02665@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20408.201302.1d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> ObTrav:  The easiest holdout to design would be a laser.  You 
> could isolate the powerpack and electronics at some other 
> location under the clothing, run a fiber optic cable to the 
> hand area, contrive a trigger (ring pull?), and have the exit 
> optics somewhere over the back of the hand.  If you made a 
> fist, and curled the fist inward, the ring would pull the 
> trigger and the beam would fire over the back of the hand.

The optical fiber that can handle a weapons grade laser doesn't exist.
And isn't likely to. 

And one bit of damage and the laser energy gets deposited in the
damaged section of fiber. Ouch!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 22:41:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 21:41:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Grav Kitchens
Message-ID: <7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe@aol.com>

--part1_7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   I'd like to see that design :)
  -Ken-

--part1_7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;I'd like to see that design :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 22:46:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr  8 21:46:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <F149PnvEZZ91Lhdms4Q000022be@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1df81$7b919c00$0b01a8c0@duck>

>      You are correct, sir.  My apologies for "bum doping" the List.

And I apologize for sounding like a jerk.  I sometimes forget
how stuff will appear when someone else reads it.

>      "While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I
> don't see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the
> trick is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it."
>
>      Yes, seeding the star with enough tungsten and aiming correctly will
> take time.  Perhaps the Darrians use multiple probes to increase their
> chances?

That is a pretty reasonable idea.  I figure they would be jumping in with
a fleet, not just a squadron.  They probably have a couple of "probe" ships
and multiple ships that can deliver the meson trigger.

Plus, I also figure they would be dependent on relative surprise.  If they
face a coordinated defense that is expecting them, they are probably best
advised to try a different system in a week or so.

[ BIG snip ]
>      The "real" reason the Star Trigger wasn't used during all those
> centuries is that weapons of mass destruction aren't, except in very rare
> cases, used to ensure you'll WIN a war.  They're used to ensure that the
> other fellow LOSES the war.  This is a important distinction.  The Star
> Trigger and MAD, on which it is based, is a suicide pact; "You push us too
> far and we'll make sure we all die, you included."

Good point.  I was focused on the SW, not the bigger picture.  The
background does imply that the Star Trigger was created with the Zhodani
in mind, not the SW.  (Though if their relationship ever went sour,
they would probably include the Imperium with the Zhodani.)

>      The Trigger can be used defensively rather easily, by employing it
you
> ensure that the power about to conquer you is left with nothing worth
> conquering.  Using the Trigger offensively, like nukes, is far tougher.
...

I seriously doubt the Darrians would destroy their own worlds to prevent
capture.  The only reason I can think of for them to intentionally use
the Star Trigger in one of their own systems is if they believed they could
nail a major fleet, then come back in to fix the system.

They would, however, without hesitation do a deep penetration to wipe
out an enemy world.  Or several.

>      "I imagine the faking of the demo was probably an incredible
> accomplishment in its own right."
>
>      Keeping the secret that the Trigger demonstration was a fake was the
> really incrediable accomplishment.  The fakers had to fool both the
> observers from the other powers AND their own people utterly and
> completely.
>   Why didn't the secret never leak out?  Mass suicide among the project
> staff over "creating" so horrible a weapon?

I imagine the Darrians would be pragmatic enough to have a mass "suicide"
to keep the secret.  I figure some of those in the "suicide" really did
commit real suicide after making sure the "suicides" took place.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020409053141.28337.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Apone was given a legal order by his commanding
officer. He followed it.  Evidently, SOP was to have
one man carry all the ammo.  Oops. I'm surprised he
didn't know that Drake had the extra BFG thingies.
END QUOTE

No Doug, Vasquez had the extra links for the smart
guns. Tsk tsk tsk. Strap him down boys he needs
another four hours on continous loop. :) The thing I
find strange about the movie is that Apone doesn't
comment on Drake and Vasquez taking point even though
they have   "supposedly" disarmed weapons! The funny
thing is Aliens fans have bigger debates over the
whole "they don't show up on infrared issues" (If the
aliens temp is low enough not to show up on infrared,
they wouldn't be able to move fast)than even the TML
piracy debates. However we have a better handwave, its
those damned cheapskate manufacturers of IR gear ;)

Does anyone have tonnages for a TL-15 PAWS* spinal
mount.


*Penguin Accelerator Weapon System

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://www.sold.com.au - SOLD.com.au Auctions
- 1,000s of Bargains!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:38:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:38:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAIEKKCOAA.redroach@pobox.com>

The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
civilians.  It has little or no military application,
contrary to popular mythos.

I don't know about that. I saw a story on the History channel about a Marine
officer in Korea I think. He made his men take bayonet practice even though
it was outdated.  They got pinned down on patrol and ran out of ammo.  THe
officer led a successful bayonet charge up a hill which wiped out the North
Koreans. That sounds a bit drastic, but useful.

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:41:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:41:10 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin
 gs
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

I know this has probably gone the round on the TML, but just in case. 

Star Wars Name =

First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name

First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
were born. 

Which makes me Mikhu Huper

Damn it, I sound like the old store keeper dude from Sesame Street. 

Apologies if already discussed/known/rejected 'cause it's not canon,
concerns pirates and/or near C rocks etc. 

So Darrien Thistle, born in Ermington, with his mothers maiden name of
Vaddlepettle would be

.... Darth Vader

Nice. 

Mikey

Ob Trav: I think that is clear. 

PS So if Dave Jaques Watson was born in Canberra, and his mother's name was
Smith, he would be Davwa Smcan.

I think I'll make him the evil dude in my next campaign (someone with an
incurable, non fatal but disfiguring disease).

Heh Heh Heh. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>; from Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:02:40PM +1000
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020408234503.A15920@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:02:40PM +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name

Robuh

> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born. 

Menor

Robuh Menor--yer right; sounds vaguely like one of Lucas's fevered
imaginings.  Sehr amusant.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:52:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:52:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204090209.g3929Gw02878@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20408.004707.6k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <200204090209.g3929Gw02878@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
> an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
> move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
> suppression, they move toward each other much faster
> than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
> I wrong?

If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
on each ion, then it is true.

If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
factor of 10.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <20020408.225739.-3503.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 14:02:40 +1000 "Hughes, Michael"
<Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au> writes:
>  
> Star Wars Name =Barst Cotor
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first 
> name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town 
> where you were born. 

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr  8 23:57:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Mon Apr  8 22:57:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Shipbuilding questions
In-Reply-To: <OF1B531251.5105373F-ONCA256B95.001A7F77@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020408225507.00ace4c0@mail.verizon.net>

Yes, Dear Hyphen, it's definitely Monday!!!  ;-)

At 12:51 PM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Dear Folks -
>
>Charles replied to Laning thus:
> >>We'd also want provision for laundry operations.  Including
> >>ironing.  Every service a hotel provides, basically.
> >
> >Even hookers?
>
>Certainly! Just the things you need to grab on to when you perform an EVA
>and the ship decides to lurch suddenly.
>
>...or did I misunderstand your point?
>
>;-)  ;-)  ;-)
>
>(It really _must_ be Monday.)
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 00:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Mon Apr  8 23:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F210WagewMS59IvqvIy000169c3@hotmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn writes:

> > That also surprises me that the M16 had a poor reputation for accuracy,
> > because the AR-15/M16 is certainly a much better accuracy platform than
> > the AK-47 or even the M14.
>
>In that case the M14 must be considerably less accurate than the old M1
>Garand its based on. IMER the M1 is at least as accurate as the M16A1,
>assuming similar conditions.

I think the M14 and M1, as weapons platforms, probably get pretty similar 
accuracy.  After all, the M14 is clearly derived from the M1.  The M14 is 
probably more accurate solely because the 308 round is more accurate than 
30-06.  This has something to do with the case being squatter and the shape 
of the case shoulder.  The M14 over time replaced the M1 as the premier 
firearm in military matches.  The M14 is now being replaced in that role by 
the M16, which is shooting better than either of its predecessors.  These 
match rifles have a number of upgrades from standard rifles, so that 
probably does not tell you that much about issue rifles.  The Army's minimum 
standard for accuracy is pretty lousy (4 MOA IIRC), so any of these rifles 
would probably fit that bill.

But as to your basic point that an M1 gets better accuracy than an M16A1, as 
far as issue weapons I would not be too sure.  The M16's action probably 
gives better accuracy.  Also, the M1's wood stock is not so great when you 
do a lot of firing.  The M16 has much less recoil.  On the other hand, the 
M16 is lousy if you are using a sling (because the sling connects to the 
front sight which is connected directly to the barrel) and it has a very 
thin barrel.  I bet the M16A2, with the heavy barrel, does better than the 
Garand though.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 00:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon Apr  8 23:27:08 2002
Subject: [TML] What's in a stateroom
References: <20020407.214938.-3991.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CB28B2B.81ED4C11@attbi.com>


generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> I assumed the 3 meters was deck to deck, allowing the extra space for
> conduits, ducts, overhead lighting,, pipes, electrical stuff, grav plates
> etc.
> 
 
But, that is all engineering space..

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 00:54:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Apr  8 23:54:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408123225.02823ec0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402201642.027d9e40@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020408123225.02823ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8d83e5696fb@[198.123.22.190]>

At 1:36 PM -0400 4/8/02, laning wrote:
>Leonard Erickson discusses the antihijacker issue:
>>  > If nobody else does, then
>>>  insurers will be the ones to insist on very stringent security
>>>  measures.  Probably lenders, too.  Most of the security costs are one-time
>>>  and probably financed along with the purchase price of the ship.
>>
>>You are considering *installation* costs. I'm talking about the costs
>>in time wasted due to "overly stringent" security getting in the way.
>>
>>Oil tankers are expensive too. So are modern freighters. And *safety*
>>gear on them that "gets in the way" is routinely bypassed by crews,
>>never mind "security" gear.
>
>I wholeheartedly agree that personnel will tend to ignore things 
>that are inconvenient.  That's partly why insurers and lenders and 
>regulators at starports will be the ones insisting on enforcement 
>through certifications and inspections.  They won't expect ship 
>crews to take care of it on their own.

While I haven't followed the thread far enough to follow all the 
issues, I think there is a point to be made here.  One can't just 
assume insurance company will force any security measure you can 
think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be unpopular and, 
unless the savings in costs is _significant_, there won't be enough 
of a change in premiums to compensate.

-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 01:09:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 00:09:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F84ekOtJI52I0jYn6hx00003845@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>Anyway, I was told by the people who
>randomly checked the ammo that reached the front-line troops that we were
>typically getting 2100 fps, and it wasn't very unusual to get under 1800
>fps.

Were you getting a lot of failures to feed?  I am just wondering if such 
weak ammo could get the action to cycle reliably.

>How is this data verified or acquired, please?  I'm just curious to get
>another data point, not being accusatory or argumentative.  :->

This is from my rifle with a chronograph, and recent surplus ammo (1999-2001 
production for LC; I think the WCC was older, like 1991).

>Muzzle velocity for government ammo for the A1 was just over 2700 fps.

While there may have been some bad ammo, I do not think the spec for the 55 
grain ammo (M193) has changed since the round was first standardized.  It 
has always required a muzzle velocity of 3250 fps, measured 15' from the 
muzzle (from TM 43-0001-27).  The new 62 grain round (M1855) is supposed to 
go 3025 fps, measured 78 feet from the muzzle.

>I don't think it's a stupid idea to take a varmint rifle and turn it
>into a combat rifle.  It does have its advantages.  But I'd feel more
>sanguine about firing a 130-, 150- or 180-grain bullet from something
>chambered for 7.62 NATO or .303 British than a 55-grain bullet.  Like
>most other things, it's a combination of trade offs because you can't
>have one thing that will give you all the attributes you wish for.

Interestingly, most modern militaries are adopting 5.56 rifles and dropping 
the bigger calibers.  This is even true of weapons like the FAL which could, 
with some work, be made as flexible as far as mounting optics and 
accessories as the M16A4 or M4.

It makes me wonder a little if the Army decided that infantry are not that 
effecive anyway, so it might as well give the boys something that shoots 
lightweight ammo.  On the other hand, maybe they think 5.56 is enough, 
because if someone has a hole in them, even a .22 hole, they will be out of 
action.  Whichever is the case, most other armies seem to be buying into it 
too.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 01:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Tue Apr  9 00:56:08 2002
Subject: [TML] combat systems
In-Reply-To: <200204082055.DQH04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204091051290.24305-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >Please enlighten me.  PCCS?
> Phoenix Command Combat System, 4th Edition, with all 
> supplements. A product of the now defunct Leading Edge Games.
> The advanced small arms damage tables from the game came from 
> Computerman, a model you may recall.  Now try that by hand 
> instead of by computer.

You might consider using a laptop. Couple of people known to me have held
Vietnam and the Finnish Winter War scenarios here in some rpg cons here in
Finland, and the game went very smoothly, even with players who didn't
know the system. 

Sadly, the Vietnam campaign's www pages are in Finnish, and I can't find
the Winter War pages.

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 01:59:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue Apr  9 00:59:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

A gaming system where everybody contributes rules like
linux? That's a great idea. Wish I could program.
People are still gonna argue rules and realism though.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 02:41:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue Apr  9 01:41:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Grav Kitchens (MT)
In-Reply-To: <7c.25fa599c.29e3cabe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEPLEDAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of MurfNMurf@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2002 12:41 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Grav Kitchens


 I'd like to see that design :)
 -Ken-

Your wish...

G-M90 CLASS GRAV FIELD KITCHEN
It is a well known fact that all armies march on their stomachs, and it was
with this in mind that the Terrans introduced the G-M90 grav field kitchen
to provide hot meals for troops in the field.

CraftID: Grav Field Kitchen, TL13, Cr1,075,680
Hull: 5/12, Disp=5, Config=4SL, Armour=4F,
Unloaded=20.587 tons, Loaded=36.495 tons
Power: 1/2, Fusion=12Mw, Duration=30/90
Loco: 1/2, StdGravThrust=54tons, NOE=170kph, Cruise=432kph,
Top=576kph, MaxAccel=0.48G
Commo: Radio=Regional
Sensors: PassiveEMS=VDistant, ActiveEMS=Distant,
Environment, Radiation, Headlights x2,
ActObjScan=Form, ActObjPin=Form, PasObjScan=Form,
Off/Def: Hardpoints=1
Control: Computer=0bis x2, Panel=holographic link x1,
Special=headsUp display x1,
Environ=basic env, basic ls,extend ls, grav plates,
inertial compensators
Accom: Crew=3, (Driver/Cook=1, Cooks=2), Seats=roomy x4
Other: Cargo=14.9 kliters, Fuel=14.4 kliters
1 Air Lock,
1 10kl Field Kitchen Module,
No Fuel Purification Plant,
ObjSize=Small, No Fuel Scoops,
EmLevel=Moderate
Comments: Field Kitchen Module taken from Striker 1.
Construction Time=24 weeks single, 20 weeks multiple


Antony



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 02:58:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 01:58:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <20020409053141.28337.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

James Ramsay wrotw :

> The thing I find strange about the movie is that
> Apone doesn't comment on Drake and Vasquez taking
> point even though they have "supposedly" disarmed
> weapons!

That's because he _knew_ they'd still have rounds.
But couldn't officially know it, if you know what I mean.

> The funny
> thing is Aliens fans have bigger debates over the
> whole "they don't show up on infrared issues" (If the
> aliens temp is low enough not to show up on infrared,
> they wouldn't be able to move fast)

This has always been simple to explain.
They didn't show up on infrared _in_that_scene_ because they
are the same temperature as the nest materiel they are hiding
in, which is not cold itself. (Look at the steam and the
location)

The person who yelled it was obviously not thinking straight at
the time or they'd have realized this fact.

At other times, no-one needs to look for them on IR because they
are in the open or in situations where IR is not the best means
of detection.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 02:59:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 01:59:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020407193238.009e7a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Douglas Berry wrote :
> At 11:08 AM 4/8/02 +1000, you wrote:
>
> >One word. F*#&ing officers.
> >Though Aliens was an anti-vietnam film, so the
> >officers where shown as incompetent and unwilling to
> >enter direct combat (It says so in the directors
> >interview on the DVD).
>
> OK, that's not what I got at *all*  Gorman was
> inexperienced, that's all.

As can be seen the fact he had never done a live drop.

Note that The Company probably pulled strings to _ensure_ that an
inexperienced officer was sent, so he was more likley to accede
to the company man's wishes.

An experienced officer would likely have told the company man to
go fuck himself, and probably have shot the guy on the spot once
his treachery with Ripley and Newt was exposed.

"Treason in the face of the enemy while under martial law" or
some such charge would do, with death as a summary judgement. As
highest ranking military officer on a colony under martial law, I
suspect he would effectively have the powers of God, even if the
Company was pretty powerful back home, it would be setting a
dangerous precedent
for the Colonial Marines to have _not_ backed up their man on the
spot, and the Company could just claim their man had gone rogue.

> All he knew was the
> book, and suddenly the book went out the window
> as was eaten by a nine foot tall killing machine.

Actually, the way the marines fell apart when they were first
jumped makes me think the rest of them weren't that experienced
either, just gung ho. And with Apone down in the first few
seconds, probably the only real experience other than Ripley's
was gone.

> Win the shit came down, he covered his people,

However it was Ripley that went back to get the people, Gorman
was still dithering when she took over the APC and drove it into
the hive.

> and went back to get Vasquez, then sacrificed himself
> to slow the enemy down.  In my view, those are the
> kind of things that posthumous decorations are given out for.

Yeah, I haver to agree with Doug here.

If "Aliens" was an anti-Vietnam film it was the worst one ever
made.
Especially as the US was out of Vietnam well before the movie was
even started.

The person who deserves the biggest rocket up the arse in
"Aliens" (military-wise) is the pilot of the dropship.
Though she was originally told that the LZ had been secured,
she'd never make a Traveller-PC group.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 03:00:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 02:00:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8d83e5696fb@[198.123.22.190]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :
> While I haven't followed the thread far enough to
> follow all the  issues, I think there is a point
> to be made here.  One can't just assume insurance
> company will force any security measure you can
> think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be
> unpopular and, unless the savings in costs is
> _significant_, there  won't be enough
> of a change in premiums to compensate.

The insurance comany won't change it's premiums.

There will just be a clause in the contract, similar to the one
that exists with most vehicle insurance now, that if your vehicle
was not warranted at the time of the accident, or it was being
driven by an unlicensed driver, they won't pay out.

They won't even bother inspecting (or telling you about it) until
_after_ you make the claim. Then they will ask you for your
warrant and masters ticket, and if you can't produce them they
will refuse to pay out.

The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
starport will do it (for important safety and financial reasons,
would you want an unwarranted vehicle approaching an extremely
expensve space station?), there won't be any real choice except
for the captains to take the risk of not doing it and not go to
the better starports

There may even be legal requirenments in many systems.
Unwarranted ships will be told to leave immediately, or stay
stationary until they are warranted.

Given the way the Imperium operates it is unlikely the Imperium
itself will have or enforce such rules, except at the request of
member worlds if a merchant is being a bit recalcitrant, However
the Imperium may set the standards that the member worlds
legislate as they desire.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 03:45:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 02:45:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Greetings dear hearts.

Insurance companies have been in the business of ripping clients off since 
they began, and I doubt they'll change...

However, they do often state preconditions, as well as having 'weasel' 
clauses in the contract. When I took out household insurance a while back 
I had to upgrade the front door lock and they wanted me to get a burglar 
alarm until I told them I kept a Doberman pinscher :-)

So I can see there being a whole raft of terms & conditions if you want 
'3rd party, fire & theft' insurance on your starship: -

Anti-hijack program - they probably insist on you using one provided or 
one that is demonstrably at least as good.

Access control to the vessel of a given standard... they'll ask what you 
have and/or specify minimum requirements.

Qualifications required of operators (master's ticket, etc.)

Restrictions on where you are supposed to go - e.g., "Company must be 
informed prior to visits to any system classified as an Amber Zone. 
Insurance not valid for any travel in systems classified as Red Zone."

Oh dear, if I'm not careful I'll end up writing an insurance contract here 
*grin*

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 03:53:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 02:53:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name things
Message-ID: <200204090952.DRH01545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hughes, Michael" says
<snip section on making up names>

At the end of the movie "She's Having A Baby" several other 
famous types each take a turn at naming babies.  Dan Akroyd 
comes up with three names, all suitable for various campaign 
characters rather than babies.  Of course, even though I had 
watched the movie, I never noticed this until I played in a 
D&D campaign where the three arch enemies had these names - 
and they were led by the evil Nargausius.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 04:48:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue Apr  9 03:48:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name
 thin gs
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020409104751.6e9d13fd.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Hughes, Michael wrote:
> Star Wars Name =
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where
you
> were born. 

Jenry Hakar

The first name is very amusing... look at my e-mail address and see why.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 05:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue Apr  9 04:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B73@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Pitt [mailto:frankie@mundens.gen.nz]
> Sent: 09 April 2002 10:08
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] Re: How Hard is it to Steal a Starship?
> 
> 
> David P. Summers wrote :
> > While I haven't followed the thread far enough to
> > follow all the  issues, I think there is a point
> > to be made here.  One can't just assume insurance
> > company will force any security measure you can
> > think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be
> > unpopular and, unless the savings in costs is
> > _significant_, there  won't be enough
> > of a change in premiums to compensate.
> 
> The insurance comany won't change it's premiums.
> 
> There will just be a clause in the contract, similar to the one
> that exists with most vehicle insurance now, that if your vehicle
> was not warranted at the time of the accident, or it was being
> driven by an unlicensed driver, they won't pay out.
> 
> They won't even bother inspecting (or telling you about it) until
> _after_ you make the claim. Then they will ask you for your
> warrant and masters ticket, and if you can't produce them they
> will refuse to pay out.
> 
> The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
> required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
> may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
> starport will do it (for important safety and financial reasons,
> would you want an unwarranted vehicle approaching an extremely
> expensve space station?), there won't be any real choice except
> for the captains to take the risk of not doing it and not go to
> the better starports

Ok, how long does this Warrant last? Is it similar to the MOT in the UK
for cars? i.e. an annual check of the vehicles condition and compliance
with regulations?

If so, most crews will disable the hindering security aspects (if these
are even covered by the warranting procedure) until such time as they
are approaching annual maintenance and warranting, re-enable them just
befor inspection, then promptly disable them again after certification.

And in any case, a car can be insured against theft even if it doesn't
have steering locks, a car alarm and an immobiliser fitted, so why can't
a starship? Yes, your premium will be a tad higher, but unless theft of
starships is commonplace stringent security won't be a *requirement* of
insurance.

There is a world of difference between a safe ship and a secure one, and
all STC will be concerned with is safety.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 07:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr  9 06:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Roseberrys used HG2 ship lot #2
Message-ID: <3CB2EA6B.7D7D51B5@mail.cswnet.com>

Here are more beauties on the tarmac...
We're slashing prices; everything must go!
Discounts up to 20%
Buy now and get your choice of a Penguin, Tribble, Cabit, or Jackalope
as gift**

**not available in Solomani Rim outlets

Iye-Rethar class auxiliary tender
QT-A1011B2-000000-00007-0  Mcr320.29 std. 1000dt
       one battery          Crew=22       TL=8
Fuel=10 EP=10 Agile=1 Cargo=520 Tankage Fuel=200
Fuel Scoops and Purification plant
Crew=22 [11 officers with 11-4dt staterooms; 11 ratings-with 2dt
rooms]  Lowberths=20 100dt missle bay=1

Aries Eagle class missle boat
MB-A1022B2-700000-00007-0  Mcr940.35 std. 1000dt
one battery                Crew=18  TL=7
Fuel=100 EP=20 Agile=2 Fuel Scoops
Auxiliary 1G manuever drive=1 Auxiliary 1pn power plant=1
Auxiliary Mod 1 fib computer=1 Auxiliary bridge=1
Crew=18 [officers=8, ratings=10.] Marines=31 Frozen watch=42
4dt staterooms=2 [1 each for ship and marine commander]
2dt staterooms=49 [1 passenger possible]
100dt missle bay=1

Ether class Battleship*
BB-A1017B2-800000-00600-0  Mcr1466.54std. 1000dt
one battery                Crew=21  TL=8
Fuel=140 EP=70 Agile=1 Fuel scoops and Purification Plant
Crew=21[11 officers, 10 ratings]
4dt staterooms=11 2dt staterooms=10
Cargo=2 100dt partical accelerator bay=1
*At TL8, this is a Battleship. At TL15, this is a target craft.

Reill class patrol cruiser
PC-A1267E2-130000-00008-0  Mcr1158.284 std. 1100dt
            3         1    Crew=26 Marines=21 TL=11
            3         1
Fuel=297 [jump fuel=220, plant fuel=77] EP=77 Agile=6
1-1dt triple sandcaster turret 1-100dt missle bay
Crew=26[13 officers, 13 ratings] Marines=21
4dt staterooms=13 2dt staterooms=34 Cargo=26

Stacker class repair tug
QT-1204721-000000-20000-0 Mcr94.907 std 100dt
one battery--pulse lasers  Crew=5  TL12
Fuel=7 EP=7 Agile=4 Cargo=3.4dt Fuel scoops and purification plant
1-1dt tripple pulse laser turret
1-10dt machine shop 1-6dt electronics shop
special umbilical docking tube [.025Mcr, 2.6dt]
Crew=5[1 pilot, 1 engineer, 1 gunner/engineer, 2 engineer/maintenance].
5-2dt staterooms.

Plop designs historical series:  The CAM-117 gunship
from Spacecraft 2000-2100AD, by Stewart Cowley, pub 1978, by
Chartwell Books. ISBN 0-89009-211-7

CAM 117 gunship
aka 'the last of the dreadnaughts', 'nuclear kites'
BG-A405AB2-300000-40602-0 Mcr763.09 std. 1900dt
                  1 1 7    Crew=45  TL=8
                  1 1 7
Fuel=190 EP=190 Agility=5 Fuel scoops and Purification Plant
1-100 ton wps bay carrying "One NA 117 Particle Accelerator"
"6 various laser guns": 2-1dt triple beam laser turrets
"various nuclear missile launchers": 7-1dt triple missile racks
Crew=45[11 officers, 34 ratings] 4dt staterooms=45 Cargo=39

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 07:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue Apr  9 06:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
References: <B8D75E02.37BF1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <055501c1dfca$cb684280$1f9e15ac@warrior>

I recall somebody telling me that another problem with these weapons was the
lightness of the projectile ment that wind had a much more drastic effect on
accuracy...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks


> on 4/8/02 2:21 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> >
> > I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).  A
65 gram
> > projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.
>
>
> I think he means the XM110, which fired a 10.2 gn flechette at 4820 f/s.
>
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 07:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Tue Apr  9 06:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <F2713iCVCd2FvOJyADg0000a126@hotmail.com>

In (Digest) Mail, Matt Bond asked...
<SNIP>
Ok, I'm a one-man-operator Scout, and have to eva while in space to do some 
kind of repair and a computer glitch activates my Airlocks Starport Locking 
mechanism.  How do I get back in?
</SNIP>

Um, "Open the pod bay doors, Hal"?

Jeff.

"Will the nightmares soon give way to dreaming that she is here with me, 
here in the glow of the night..."

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 08:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 07:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here namethin gs
Message-ID: <200204091452.DRR04317@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
>for first name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
>town where you were born. 
>
John Kwon, Chapel Hill

Johon Swcha
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 09:26:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue Apr  9 08:26:07 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here
 namethin gs
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B74@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
> Sent: 09 April 2002 15:53
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Those darn
> how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here namethin gs
> 
> 
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
> >for first name
> > 
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
> >town where you were born. 
> >
> John Kwon, Chapel Hill
> 
> Johon Swcha

I think you will find it is Johkw Schwa...


Matt
(a.k.a. Matbo Pelon)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 10:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr  9 09:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <F73cFZ4RgPRCjOuF1Qp000016f2@hotmail.com>

From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>

     "And I apologize for sounding like a jerk.  I sometimes forget how 
stuff will appear when someone else reads it."

Mr. West,

     Why there's nothing to apologize for, sir!  Your post was perfectly 
alright, I didn't feel it to be anything but correct in both form and tone.
     I was upset with myself over ladling out bad information as if it were 
gospel.  I should have known better and attached an "IIRC" to the statement.

     "That is a pretty reasonable idea.  I figure they would be jumping in 
with a fleet, not just a squadron.  They probably have a couple of "probe" 
ships and multiple ships that can deliver the meson trigger."

     Yes, deployed within a fleet.  That's why the AM 8 talk of the Special 
Branch doesn't sit quite well with me.  It sort of implies that the Darrians 
can zip in with a few vessels and get the job done.
     Leaving probe delivery aside for the moment, look at the meson beam 
requirements.  If you're going to trigger the tungsten plume AND get away, 
you must do it from outside the star's 100D limit.  For a star the size of 
Sol, that's nearly 1 AU.  What sort of beam projector is going to be 
required for that kind of range?  Never mind the accuracy we'll need!
     Spinal mounts don't have that kind of range, at least I assume they 
don't.  Meson gun range is determined by the speed of the particles, you 
whip them up to some insanely relativistic speed in order to delay their 
decay.  When their slowed clocks finally tick down, they go "boom", 
hopefully near the point in space where you want them to do so.
     In the case of the Star Trigger, we'll be attempting to time that decay 
to a point ~1 AU away from our vessels.  The TL 16 Darrians were able to do 
it from Darrian and a GG moon, but the vessels carrying this equipment wil 
be very, very, VERY specialized.  I don't think you'll be able to flip a 
switch and modify a meson gun spinal mount to do the job.

     "I seriously doubt the Darrians would destroy their own worlds to 
prevent capture.  The only reason I can think of for them to intentionally 
use the Star Trigger in one of their own systems is if they believed they 
could nail a major fleet, then come back in to fix the system."

     "They would, however, without hesitation do a deep penetration to wipe 
out an enemy world.  Or several."

     I see the problem with using the Trigger against the Zhos (or 
Imperials) as one of strategic depth.  How many Triggers would take to 
dissuade a very large opponent from continuing his assault on you?  How 
thick a "belt" of Trigger flare systems would it take to stop an offensive?  
Or a war?  Let's take a Darrian-Imperial war for example, would the Darrians 
have to Trigger selected stars as far back as Corridor to keep the Imerium 
at bay?
     Of course, a single Trigger can effect more than one world.  The 
"orignal" deployment did effect worlds as far away from Darrain as Entrope 
and Winston, but at a propogation of <light speed.  It took years for 
results to travel beyond the intial system, not that the warning helped any.
     Deploying many Trigger's at once could present your attacker with an 
unimaginable catastrophe in several systems, and a multi-parsec belt of 
incrediable EM damge that will take decades to develop, but would that cause 
him to cease his assaults or would he be more likely to visit genocide upon 
you and yours?

     "I imagine the Darrians would be pragmatic enough to have a mass 
"suicide" to keep the secret.  I figure some of those in the "suicide" 
really did commit real suicide after making sure the "suicides" took place."

     Omigosh!  Someone who can think nearly as "evilly" as me!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 10:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 09:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B73@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409115948.027e20f0@pop.wizard.net>

Matt Bond:
>Ok, how long does this Warrant last? Is it similar to the MOT in the UK
>for cars? i.e. an annual check of the vehicles condition and compliance
>with regulations?
>
>If so, most crews will disable the hindering security aspects (if these
>are even covered by the warranting procedure) until such time as they
>are approaching annual maintenance and warranting, re-enable them just
>befor inspection, then promptly disable them again after certification.

I think there will be annual inspections at the time of annual maintenance, 
and also inspections at every port that is Class A or B and probably C.

Not every safety feature will be vigorously disabled by crews.  The locks 
between engineering and passenger spaces are quite convenient.  They keep 
passengers from turning up in annoying places and bothering you.  And all 
the crewman has to do is keep their keycard in their pocket and key in four 
numbers on the crypto pad to pass through the lock.  The boat pilot will 
similarly prefer locks that keep wandering crew or passengers from visiting 
"his" boat just out of curiosity and desire for more elbow room.  In less 
normal situations, access to the ship's boats will become universal (for 
abandon ship situations) or more difficult (for hijacking situations).  The 
chief features of the antihijacking security will be to prevent 
unauthorized personnel from gaining access to engineering and other 
crew-only spaces like the bridge, and to prevent unauthorized personnel 
from using control stations.

Electronic log files will be kept on every passage through a hatchway or 
use of a control station.  When visiting better ports, copies of those log 
files will be beamed to whoever keeps such records.  If locks are disabled, 
no event will be logged each time the hatch or control station is used, and 
it will be pretty obvious as soon as someone inspects the logs.

Also, if locks or other measures are disabled, then the insurance 
investigator will be doing her best to elicit confessions or accusations 
from each individual member of the crew.  The crewman who disables a lock, 
and the ship's officer who lets it remain disabled will have to think twice 
about whether they really want personal legal responsibility for the loss 
of the ship that's being investigated.  Their employment contracts have 
explicit language designed to ensure that a crewman or officer who is 
culpable in a loss is subject to heavy, heavy penalties.

The risk just won't be worth taking, especially since the chief benefit of 
disabling locks is not having to punch in four numbers each time the 
individual passes through a hatchway between where they spend most of their 
work day and where they rarely venture anyway.  All it takes is one or two 
honest crewmen to decide to turn them in and they are in big, big trouble.

The level of personal inconvenience to crew and officers shouldn't be 
overrated.  Nor should the level of security most people are willing to put 
up with.  I don't know about other major U.S. cities, but here in the 
Washington area most places of employment make people go past security to 
enter and exit their building, there are roving security guards, all 
packages are subject to inspection, people have to physically log in and 
out of the building outside of normal work hours, and there are frequently 
a few doors within the company's area that are also secure (usually they 
admit only personnel whose magnetically coded employee ID badge is on the 
authorized list in a central computer).  The main everyday features of 
starship security will not be any more annoying than that.  Getting caught 
violating ship's security will be dramatically more undesirable than 
violating office security normally is.


>And in any case, a car can be insured against theft even if it doesn't
>have steering locks, a car alarm and an immobiliser fitted, so why can't
>a starship? Yes, your premium will be a tad higher, but unless theft of
>starships is commonplace stringent security won't be a *requirement* of
>insurance.

You mean unless theft of starships is expensive to the insurance 
company.  Since the insurer tends to be heavily, heavily invested at all 
times in order to maximize profits, having to pay out a mere Cr40,000,000 
will be a major inconvenience and probably affect that quarter's bottom 
line.  Rate schedules will reflect this.

Theft insurance riders for car insurance are usually relatively low to 
begin with, so the difference between $8/month and $14/month may not 
motivate many people to take the extra measures you mention.  Which 
measures are over and above the door locks and steering lock that are 
operated by your car keys.  But rates go up significantly or even 
dramatically when you have a very expensive car, a car model that is very 
popular among thieves, or are within an easy drive of the Mexican border 
(for those of us in the States).  Even if the theft insurance is a very 
small percentage of the ship's value, it will be a very large amount of 
ship's expense each month.  And even more troublesome in Imperial border 
regions near places like the Vargr Extents or systems not belonging to any 
organized empire.

A fundamental principle of property insurance is to reimburse the insured 
100% of the value of their loss.  If the insured has nothing to lose then 
loss claims become incredibly frequent.  If the insured has to carry a 
signicant portion of the loss of a spaceship, you can bet that ships' 
owners will go to some trouble to make sure it never happens to them.

(Thus, a good bounty hunter scenario for recovering stolen ships would be a 
ship's owner who has incurred a loss and already been reimbursed the 90% of 
fair market value that's as much as she'll ever get hires bounty hunters to 
recover the ship.  Payment will be to split all profits from selling the 
recovered ship, after first making up the 10% that wasn't insured and then 
covering all expenses incurred.  If the ship can still be sold for its 
original fair market value, that's a huge profit.)


>There is a world of difference between a safe ship and a secure one, and
>all STC will be concerned with is safety.

Not sure who STC is.  Starport Authorities and local governments will be 
concerned that terrorists or wackos don't hijack a ship and crash it into 
something (the high port, the duke's residence, the financial district of 
the most important city) either intentionally or through ineptness.  That's 
part of safety.  Another part of safety is ensuring the ship is kept in 
good operating order and run in a responsible manner, and security logs 
will be helpful in determining that (are watches being stood?  are 
equipment inspections being kept up with?  do unauthorized personnel get 
access to equipment or controls?).  Lenders and insurers will be concerned 
to prevent ship loss from the investment point of view.  Sector and 
subsector dukes may have additional concerns, which might be felt through 
increased Starport Authority regulations, or through influencing local 
governments to implement other regulations.

I imagine that ship owners may put a clause in crew employment contracts 
that actually penalizes crewmen X months of salary if the ship is 
stolen.  All the crew and officers, not just whoever is found 
culpable.  The ship owners are motivated to prevent theft because of 
financial incentive.  They'll seek to put crew and officers in the same 
position.

(Hmm, one racket would be owner and crew cooperating to make the ship seem 
to be stolen, get their 80% or 90% from the insurance company, then the 
crew goes off as bounty hunters and "recovers" the ship from the "thieves", 
they sell the ship for nearly it's fair market value, and they've just made 
a profit of circa 80% of the value of a ship.  This will be an easy racket 
unless law enforcement and insurers are doing thorough jobs at every step 
of the way.  And even then it will still occasionally happen.)

I'm going to file this email separately for its adventure seeds and routine 
starship operations information.  Thank you for getting me to write it.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 11:19:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 10:19:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F210WagewMS59IvqvIy000169c3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409130304.027d16f0@pop.wizard.net>

Sam D on comparative accuracies between different military rifles:
>But as to your basic point that an M1 gets better accuracy than an M16A1, 
>as far as issue weapons I would not be too sure.  The M16's action 
>probably gives better accuracy.  Also, the M1's wood stock is not so great 
>when you do a lot of firing.  The M16 has much less recoil.  On the other 
>hand, the M16 is lousy if you are using a sling (because the sling 
>connects to the front sight which is connected directly to the barrel) and 
>it has a very thin barrel.  I bet the M16A2, with the heavy barrel, does 
>better than the Garand though.

I'd be very surprised if the M-16 shoots better on the 800-yard or -meter 
line (800 is not part of normal rifle qual, just competitions).  Even the 
M-16A2, with slightly heavier barrel, much better twist to the rifling for 
long-range accuracy, and slightly different load should be poorer than the 
M-14.  Oh, and let's not forget the A2's butt being three-eighths of an 
inch longer than the A1.  Skilled shooters can fire the 14 from the 1,000 
and that's something that's pretty ridiculous with the 16.  Not having 
fired the M-14, I can't speak to things like the furniture or the sight 
arrangement.  I imagine differences between the sight designs can make a 
pretty big difference to performance on the range.

I understand that current M-16s in U.S. service have these (IMHO 
ridiculous) three-round-burst limiters.  Which makes the trigger action a 
little bit different between first, second, and third shots of each 
burst.  The range coaches who I talked to about it said they were advising 
people to hand load each round during slow fire.  In between each round 
they would dry fire the weapon twice.  That way, you were always at the 
same point in the three-round sequence when you actually fired a 
round.  The one time I qualified with the A2 instead of A1, I forgot about 
that little routine.  The A2 still improved my score by about 5 points.  I 
also did a full course of fire not for qualification with the A2 and saw my 
score jump up about the same.  Although, come to think of it, I was less 
than satisfied with my groups from the 500-yard line.  Doh.  Only took 
fifteen years to figure that one out.  :->

ObTrav.  Something the referee in my current PBEM game does do.  Until a 
character has spent time on a range "sighting in" aka "zeroing" a new 
weapon, she should get accuracy penalties when using it, although the 
penalty should be neglible at short range.  A skilled character who takes 
several hours to sight in may be eligible for an accuracy bonus.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 11:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 10:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F84ekOtJI52I0jYn6hx00003845@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409132133.027d0ec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 07:08 AM 4/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>laning writes:
>
>>Anyway, I was told by the people who
>>randomly checked the ammo that reached the front-line troops that we were
>>typically getting 2100 fps, and it wasn't very unusual to get under 1800
>>fps.
>
>Were you getting a lot of failures to feed?  I am just wondering if such 
>weak ammo could get the action to cycle reliably.

Nope.  Well, define 'a lot'.  I've had them occur on the rifle range.  Less 
than say five(?) times.  It was a lot of years ago now to be trying to 
remember this.


>>How is this data verified or acquired, please?  I'm just curious to get
>>another data point, not being accusatory or argumentative.  :->
>
>This is from my rifle with a chronograph, and recent surplus ammo 
>(1999-2001 production for LC; I think the WCC was older, like 1991).
>
>>Muzzle velocity for government ammo for the A1 was just over 2700 fps.
>
>While there may have been some bad ammo, I do not think the spec for the 
>55 grain ammo (M193) has changed since the round was first 
>standardized.  It has always required a muzzle velocity of 3250 fps, 
>measured 15' from the muzzle (from TM 43-0001-27).  The new 62 grain round 
>(M1855) is supposed to go 3025 fps, measured 78 feet from the muzzle.

That 2700 figure was what our manuals from boot camp taught us and was a 
very frequent question during inspections in boot camp and afterwards.  I 
want to 2,710 but I still can't remember the precise figure.  And yeah, my 
1980 edition of 'Cartridges of the World' thinks M193 ammo had a 3,250 
muzzle velocity also.  Interesting that the Marine Corps _officially_ 
taught us it was a much lower number.  One explanation is that Marine Corps 
was continuing to be forced to accept ammo lots that it considered 
substandard at 2,710 while the contractor continued to insist he was 
delivering 3,250 and the dispute was dragging on during my tenure in the Corps.

I think when the manufacturer sells 'surplus' ammo they know precisely 
whether a shipment will be delivered to commercial sellers or to the 
government.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.


>Interestingly, most modern militaries are adopting 5.56 rifles and 
>dropping the bigger calibers.  This is even true of weapons like the FAL 
>which could, with some work, be made as flexible as far as mounting optics 
>and accessories as the M16A4 or M4.
>
>It makes me wonder a little if the Army decided that infantry are not that 
>effecive anyway, so it might as well give the boys something that shoots 
>lightweight ammo.  On the other hand, maybe they think 5.56 is enough, 
>because if someone has a hole in them, even a .22 hole, they will be out 
>of action.  Whichever is the case, most other armies seem to be buying 
>into it too.

Yes, both of your suggestions make a lot of sense in light of what the 
popular wisdom is at the government think tanks that largely influence 
these decisions.  "Aimed fire is no more effective than unaimed fire in 
battlefield situations."  and "An army loses more than three soldiers from 
action each time someone is wounded, in order to medevac and care for that 
wounded soldier."

In fact, with that last popular nugget of wisdom, one can easily imagine 
the paper pushers deciding it's _better_ to have a rifle that results in 
more wounds than kills, and stopping power isn't even part of the 
decision.  It's a Dilbert world.

My ObTrav here is some planetary militaries opting for patently 
underpowered weapons on the theory that they should always be trying to 
inflict a wound and never a kill.  Take it near a ridiculous 
extreme.  Perhaps the player characters are in a mercenary unit that goes 
up against them, and after getting some battle experience against them, can 
only muse wonderingly and pity the poor bastards they're fighting 
against.  Or the player characters are in a city that is under attack by 
irregular forces much like the Boers from 1902 (people grew up with 
shooting and take weapon deadliness very seriously).  They feel secure 
enough, since the planetary government forces defending the city vastly 
outnumber the irregular and have much more sophisticated equipment 
besides.  Things grow tense as the irregulars' siege of the city gets 
tighter and tighter and the fighting starts coming in earshot of their 
hotel.  No vehicles, aircraft, or spacecraft are entering or leaving the 
city.  Rumors of war crimes being committed by ever more angry irregulars 
are growing.  (They're angry because their friends and family often they 
themselves are getting wounded.  They're _not_ spending three guys to take 
care of one wounded guy, because they're irregulars and don't have that 
kind of luxury.)

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 11:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Apr  9 10:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
Message-ID: <200204091244.AA102170826@caddocourt.com>

>     Why there's nothing to apologize for, sir!  Your post was perfectly 
>alright, I didn't feel it to be anything but correct in both form and tone.

Oh good!  Thank you for clearing that up.

[ big snip ]
>     "They would, however, without hesitation do a deep penetration to wipe 
>out an enemy world.  Or several."
>
>     I see the problem with using the Trigger against the Zhos (or 
>Imperials) as one of strategic depth.  How many Triggers would take to 
>dissuade a very large opponent from continuing his assault on you?
> ... , but would that cause 
>him to cease his assaults or would he be more likely to visit genocide upon 
>you and yours?

I don't think the Darrians would be using the Star Trigger against the
Zhodani or the Imperium unless they already knew they were dead.  (Or
at least believed they were.)  As you mentioned before, there is nothing
it can do in its operation that will let the Darrians win such a war.

The whole point with the Zhodani (and, by extension, the Imperium) is
that its presence will prevent the war from ever starting in the first
place.  If you know that conquering the Darrians will be that expensive
(and the ramifications will continue to happen for years to come), you
have to really want the Darrians dead.  In other words, it escalates
the price of victory the Zhodani or Imperium would have to pay to
conquer the Darrians.  It can never win the war once it has started.

Of course, the other "fun" use of the Star Trigger is to intimidate
small (single system) governments like Nonym and (before they were an
Imperial client state) Garoo.

[ this is out of context, but ...]
>...  It took years for 
>results to travel beyond the intial system, not that the warning helped any.

The problem for the Darrians with the Maghiz was that there was only a
single shipyard and a single industrial base for the entire Confederation:
Darrian.  Once it was destroyed, the colonies had no way to get new ships
or technological goods.  They were all stuck.

The Imperial or Zhodani worlds would not be so hard hit since there would
always be other worlds to get stuff from.  They would be able to recover
in a much more quickly.

>     "I imagine the Darrians would be pragmatic enough to have a mass 
>"suicide" to keep the secret.  I figure some of those in the "suicide" 
>really did commit real suicide after making sure the "suicides" took place."
>
>     Omigosh!  Someone who can think nearly as "evilly" as me!

While I do probably fit that description, in this case I would call this
"evil", so much as purely pragmatic.

Another way to look at it is that the scientists literal bet their lives 
that they could create the Star Trigger.  They lost the bet and paid the
price, but at least had a measure of success.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 12:58 AM 4/9/02 -0700, you wrote:

>A gaming system where everybody contributes rules like
>linux? That's a great idea. Wish I could program.
>People are still gonna argue rules and realism though.

The latest edition of D&D made some hype about going to this back when it 
was announced and the public buzz about Linux was at its peak.  I don't 
really follow D&D and don't know where that stands now.

That suggestion does not have to have anything to do with programming the 
rules for computers.  Just writing game rules.  There needs to be a 
centralized repository for distributing the rules.  Web site, news group, 
mailing list.  The contributors to that forum need to early on establish 
some protocols that, if followed, keep contributors writing rule sections 
that are compatibility with the other rule sections.

For example, weapon design rules have to produce results within parameters 
that can be used any combat rules which in turn have to produce results 
that can be used with any rules describing character attributes, in terms 
of taking wounds and in terms of determining hits and damage.

There are some problems that make such a project very different from 
open-source programming of a Unix variant.

With programming, the contributions have to at least compile, and not crash 
when launched.  This filters out a lot underqualified contributors right 
there.  No such built-in logic checks preventing junk contributions of game 
rules.

There are a _lot_ more people who think they can design a game than there 
are people who think they can write a computer program.  Professional game 
designers are aware of this phenomenon and are also aware that a huge 
number of self proclaimed game designers don't have the least concept of 
some important fundamentals.

These first two things suggest that a huge percentage of junk 
contributions.  Much more so than with Linux.

Having a much larger population of people who think they can write rules 
could lead to vast numbers of rule contributions.  The sheer number can be 
a problem.  OTOH, if only a small percentage of contributions are good then 
it's a good thing there are so many contributions.  :->

There is less motivation for people to write rule contributions.  A 
successful Linux contribution is more likely to be personally gratifying, 
and is an extremely helpful thing to have on your resume and a useful 
professional growth experience in a well-paid profession.  A game rules 
contribution isn't very helpful to most persons' careers, and is arguably 
less gratifying in terms of fame or the satisfaction of being published.

The market for (war and roleplaying) games is orders of magnitude smaller 
than the market for computer software.

Establishing even the basic intent of the protocols is a puzzling 
task.  Linux had the advantage of imitating an established and mature 
operating system at its start.  Is the open source roleplaying game going 
to be highly cinematic and intended to keep player characters alive but 
slaughter....never mind.  I guess if the protocol cleverly defines how 
modules plug into each other, then you can let players mix and match 
modules themselves.

Bug reporting of Linux contributions can be automated and reports sent via 
the Internet easily.  Bug reporting of game designs is much more problematical.

That's what comes to mind.

It's got me to thinking about how to organize it though.  If I had more 
energy for the project, I'd go advertise in various Internet locations, 
magazines, game shops, and game conventions, set up the Web site and 
mailing list, etc.  Oh yeah, and if I had the money for those thing.  If 
enough people start participating, it might be a worthwhile experiment.

Not sure if I remember the original Linus Thorvald's post accurately enough 
to make this paraphrase work.  "Remember the good old days when real men 
wrote their own game rules?..."

One last thing.  I have some hesitation about whether it's a good idea to 
even trying to make open source game design work.  If it works, it isn't 
like stealing market share from Bill Gates.  It's making it impossible for 
guys like Loren Wiseman to earn a living in the industry.  We won't have 
any full time RPG designers anymore.  Which probably means a lot of 
important and good contributions to RPGs will never take place.  As a 
concept, open source game design seems like a desirable thing for gaming if 
it can be made to work.  The devil is in the details.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here
 name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <20020408234503.A15920@4dv.net>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
 <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409141814.027d2810@pop.wizard.net>

> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> > were born.

Lanpo Lannap.  I do not want to be called Lanpo.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Penguin Sighting
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409142253.027d5410@pop3.isicns.com>

'Shackleton' is being run in two parts on A&E repeatedly from this past 
weekend through April 19th.  Originally from Channel 4 in the U.K.

Numerous penguin sightings and references!

Including the classic when the photographer and Shackleton (played by 
Brannagh), are sorting through all their photographic negatives, made of glass.

Shackleton, in tired complaint:  "_Not_ another penguin."  Smash.

It even opens with a genuine, 100% pure, certified penguin joke, albeit in 
German and with no subtitles.  Most of us will have to pay close attention 
to eke out enough meaning to understand it.

Actual ObTravs should be abundantly obvious while viewing the show.  Chock 
full of adventure seeds and NPCs.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:17:35PM -0400
References: <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:17:35PM -0400, laning wrote:
>
> I have some hesitation about whether it's a good idea to even trying
> to make open source game design work.  If it works, it isn't like
> stealing market share from Bill Gates.  It's making it impossible
> for guys like Loren Wiseman to earn a living in the industry.  We
> won't have any full time RPG designers anymore.  Which probably
> means a lot of important and good contributions to RPGs will never
> take place.

Open source and free software aren't about winning market share from
Bill Gates--they're about doing the right thing (or rather, doing a
more right thing).  I don't think that anyone will argue that it's
more moral to give away than the sell; in fact, I can think of few
schools of thought other than Objectivism which would so argue.  It's
not wrong to charge for one's labour (how else could one eat?)--but it
is better to give it away.

No-one should ever be forced to give away his labour--that would be
slavery.  But OTOH it must be recognised that if _I_ give mine away,
then _you_ will have a hard time selling yours.  But that is, to be
quite honest, your problem.


And a _lot_ of important and free contributions to RPGs took place
back in the old net days--ever read the Net.Books
<http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/byzantium/55/index2.htm#bluetroll>?
The vast majority were written by players for players.

In the software world, we've moved from proprietary everything, to
open standards for proprietary components on top of proprietary
platforms (POSIX when it first came about) to open standards for open
components on top of proprietary platforms (the GNU tools on top of
POSIX) to open standards for open components on top of open platforms
(Linux and *BSD).


Games are already fairly open.  Despite certain companies' wishful
thinking, a game is already an open standard, in that anyone can
create materials compatible with it.  That's a lot of what we're doing
here on the TML, isn't it?  And yet no-one claims that we are stealing
from Messrs. Miller or Wiseman, or that they are unable to make a
living.

Steffan O'Sullivan seems to have done well with FUDGE, a system which
is truly free (in the sense of freedom), yet which is also sold.
There's a lot of value added to a book vs. a computer file--much more
than that added to software by boxing it up vs. putting it online.

Even SJ Games have a free summary of the most basic of GURPS rules
available.  I imagine that sales of GURPS Basic Set are rather dwarfed
by sales of the myriads of supplements they put out.  And how many of
us would really stop buying RPGs just because they might be available
online?

Heck, I just spent more than $200 for HackMaster's Player's Guide,
DM's Guide and Vols. 1-VII of the Hacklopaedia, despite the fact that
I'll never play it in my life.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
While I was at University in Lancaster, the International Committee of
the Red Cross was having a campaign to stop other organisations using
the name 'red cross' and served a 'cease and desist' notice on the Red
Cross Inn in Lancaster.  The innkeeper turned round and pointed out that
the Red Cross Inn (founded, like most other pubs of the same name, by a
returning crusader) had been trading under that name for more than seven
hundred and fifty years, and politely asked how long they'd been using
it.  The ICRC retired hurt.                             --Simon Brooke

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:53:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:53:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3623@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Just read MJ Dougherty's short story at:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/Fiction/Dougherty/secrets.html

I can just SEE this as a short film :)  Could be done with a very moderate
budget, especially if Harry got changed to a human character instead of
Vargr.  Granted, that's half the fun of the piece, but it'd be a lot easier
& cheaper to do if he were human.

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 12:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Geoff @ MotionBlur)
Date: Tue Apr  9 11:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3623@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <HHEJKOPACPOMFAOGPDMOIEELCHAA.mcdonald@motionblur.ca>

Animate it =)

Geoff McDonald
President
MotionBlur Animation Ltd.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of DeGraff, Jesse
> Sent: April 9, 2002 11:52 AM
> To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
> Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
>
>
> Just read MJ Dougherty's short story at:
> http://www.travellerrpg.com/Fiction/Dougherty/secrets.html
>
> I can just SEE this as a short film :)  Could be done with a very moderate
> budget, especially if Harry got changed to a human character instead of
> Vargr.  Granted, that's half the fun of the piece, but it'd be a
> lot easier
> & cheaper to do if he were human.
>
> Jesse
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Oh dear....
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3624@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

You're the professional animator, I just do stills ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff @ MotionBlur [mailto:mcdonald@motionblur.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:55 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Oh dear....


Animate it =)

Geoff McDonald
President
MotionBlur Animation Ltd.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 09, 2002 03:51:13 PM
Message-ID: <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
> > an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
> > move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
> > suppression, they move toward each other much faster
> > than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
> > I wrong?
> 
> If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
> on each ion, then it is true.
> 
> If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
> to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
> factor of 10.

Under the premise of the inertial suppression idea, inertia
is defined as the electromagnetic drag caused by mass accellerating
through the zero point field (essentially due to subatomic interactions
with virtual photons). So, if this were the case, it might hold true
that the EM force would be reduced by inertial suppression, at least if
one assumes that EM forces are transferred via virtual photons, sort of
like the way waves on the ocean are transferred through the water
molecules making up the waves (you physicists on the list can probably
laugh at this statement... I'm really showing my ignorance here). Anyway,
off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to make this
work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the square-root of the
inertial suppression factor. If we make that handwave, which is
certainly a god-being-nice type to rule to make, then I'd imagine
that we've got gravity & EM both covered. However, if anyone can
provide a counterexample, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Also, there's still the weak and strong forces to think about. Since
weak is purportedly linked to EM, one would expect some sort of similar
square-root drop off. As for the strong force, I have no idea. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F107T456UnHAaaz7EjQ000157ce@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>I'd be very surprised if the M-16 shoots better on the 800-yard or -meter
>line (800 is not part of normal rifle qual, just competitions).>Even the
>M-16A2, with slightly heavier barrel, much better twist to the rifling for
>long-range accuracy, and slightly different load should be poorer than the
>M-14.

As the distance gets longer, wind has its effect on the little 5.56 much 
more than the 7.62.  But the usual distances in match competitions is 200, 
300 and 600 yards, at which distances the M16 is supreme.  It is possible to 
get superior accuracy at even longer ranges with the M16, but they have to 
use very heavy bullets (80 grains+) that will not fit in the M16 mags.  As 
you talked about in your post, the M16 becomes a single shot.  With this 
proviso, the M16 is beating the M14 at all ranges now in competitions.  I 
think they are even getting good results at 1,000 yards, but these are 
obviously not issue weapons.

Anyway, when we are talking 1,000 yards we are really talking about ranges 
for snipers, not infantry.

>Skilled shooters can fire the 14 from the 1,000
>and that's something that's pretty ridiculous with the 16.

Certainly ridiculous for me.  An M14 would have to be pretty tweaked to 
consistantly make shots like that, and you would need optics.  It is a very 
poor platform for optics and the M14 needs constant maintanence to keep 
excellent accuracy.  The M16, on the other hand, once accurized needs little 
upkeep and it is a great platform for optics.  But you are certainly right 
that it is not going to bowling them over at 1,000 yards.

>I understand that current M-16s in U.S. service have these (IMHO
>ridiculous) three-round-burst limiters.  Which makes the trigger action a
>little bit different between first, second, and third shots of each
>burst.

The trigger pull is the same for every shot in semi-auto.  These "match" 
rifles I am talking about will usually have a special double stage trigger 
installed.  Otherwise, the standard M16 trigger, like most military 
triggers, is really too heavy for serious accuracy.

I always thought it was interesting in Striker that they have a 7mm assault 
rifle (which seems to be a FAL/G3/M14 type weapon), a 5mm assault rifle 
(M16), and then skip entirely the most popular assault rifle of all time 
(AK-47).  What are all of the guerillas supposed to be armed with?

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl quotes me and replies:
>On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:17:35PM -0400, laning wrote:
> >
> > I have some hesitation about whether it's a good idea to even trying
> > to make open source game design work.  If it works, it isn't like
> > stealing market share from Bill Gates.  It's making it impossible
> > for guys like Loren Wiseman to earn a living in the industry.  We
> > won't have any full time RPG designers anymore.  Which probably
> > means a lot of important and good contributions to RPGs will never
> > take place.
>
>Open source and free software aren't about winning market share from
>Bill Gates--they're about doing the right thing (or rather, doing a
>more right thing).  I don't think that anyone will argue that it's
>more moral to give away than the sell; in fact, I can think of few
>schools of thought other than Objectivism which would so argue.  It's
>not wrong to charge for one's labour (how else could one eat?)--but it
>is better to give it away.
>
>No-one should ever be forced to give away his labour--that would be
>slavery.  But OTOH it must be recognised that if _I_ give mine away,
>then _you_ will have a hard time selling yours.  But that is, to be
>quite honest, your problem.

I had no wish to get into philosophical theory.  I do wish to point out who 
is affected by an effort that results in taking market share from 
professional game designers.  Regardless of their original intent.  It will 
be the folks like Loren who live on a shoestring instead of folks like Bill 
Gates who already has more money than he has a purpose for.  I believe that 
a lot of people new to the situation rather expect that gaming companies 
are big faceless corporations with deep pockets, when really they are just 
the opposite.

I do not adopt that attitude of "Tough luck, Mac" if I do something for my 
own amusement (gaming as a hobby) that puts good and decent people of 
personal acquaintance (Loren) out on the street.  I don't know if your "But 
that is...your problem" remark was intended to sound quite as callous as it 
came across to me in print, but that's just me, and as you say that's my 
problem.  I'm not losing any sleep over it.  My issue is this.  If people 
are going to make a choice with profound consequences, then they should be 
aware of what those consequences are.  A successful effort to publish 
open-source game designs will kill an industry that is fairly marginal by 
replacing it with people who do it for a hobby.  I'd wager a lot of 
would-be participants in open-source gaming are not aware of that 
consequence prior to someone pointing it out.



>And a _lot_ of important and free contributions to RPGs took place
>back in the old net days--ever read the Net.Books
><http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/byzantium/55/index2.htm#bluetroll>?
>The vast majority were written by players for players.

I was not aware of that, and will look at the link later today, thanks.



>Games are already fairly open.  Despite certain companies' wishful
>thinking, a game is already an open standard, in that anyone can
>create materials compatible with it.  That's a lot of what we're doing
>here on the TML, isn't it?  And yet no-one claims that we are stealing
>from Messrs. Miller or Wiseman, or that they are unable to make a
>living.

Very good point.  To be fair, there are times we've had pretty heated IP 
debates about whether something is being stolen from them.  And the harm it 
does to their ability to make a living usually gets mentioned in those 
debates.  And the people who were breaking the law haven't always ceased 
nor desisted.


>Steffan O'Sullivan seems to have done well with FUDGE, a system which
>is truly free (in the sense of freedom), yet which is also sold.
>There's a lot of value added to a book vs. a computer file--much more
>than that added to software by boxing it up vs. putting it online.

Good point about added value.  I have no idea whether Steffan O'Sullivan is 
making a living at it or not.  I don't hear him complaining, but that 
doesn't mean a thing, since where I would go to notice such a complaint.

>Even SJ Games have a free summary of the most basic of GURPS rules
>available.  I imagine that sales of GURPS Basic Set are rather dwarfed
>by sales of the myriads of supplements they put out.  And how many of
>us would really stop buying RPGs just because they might be available
>online?
They didn't give it away until after they'd established the market for 
GURPS and had said myriads of supplements.

I can envision a real world way of developing RPG open source designs that 
will compete directly with _all_ RPG publications, and would evolve over 
time to be superior to them in most instances.  Online availability and 
printing and binding in your home is still a novelty and is far from 
reaching full 'market penetration'.  How many of us would actually pay for 
a $20 rule book that we can print and bind for less than a tenth of 
that?  A few yes, but the majority would take the cheaper option.

....leading to electronic publishing discussions but I don't know if that's 
relevant to this discussion or not.


>Heck, I just spent more than $200 for HackMaster's Player's Guide,
>DM's Guide and Vols. 1-VII of the Hacklopaedia, despite the fact that
>I'll never play it in my life.
You display a trait common in our hobby, but very few of us spend like 
that.  I suspect you have far more disposable income than most gamers.  And 
I don't suppose those volumes were available online.

In summary, you raise excellent points that do make a difference.  But if 
your intent is prove open-source RPG design is a stillborn idea, I don't 
think you've chosen compelling arguments.  If your intent was to explode my 
own points as invalid, you haven't convinced me that they are.

I think the real difficulties of moving the idea forward is lack of 
concentrated energy among people who have the right skills.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:48:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:48:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F51yTB0lrvpLA0sOVtS000096e4@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>I think when the manufacturer sells 'surplus' ammo they know precisely
>whether a shipment will be delivered to commercial sellers or to the
>government.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The WCC I have, which is produced by Olin, was for a foreign government 
contract that never made it out of the country for some reason.  It came 
linked, with tracers.  :)

Lake City is a government owned facility that is operated by a contractor 
(currently Federal).  I don't think they are supposed to be making private 
sales of the stuff.  From what I hear, the diversion to commercial suppliers 
is being stopped by the government.  Much of it is in Federal packaging, but 
some of the older stuff is packaged in 30 round boxes with stripper clips, 
ready to be issued to the troops.

Really, you guys are shocking me with all of this talk of low velocity 5.56 
ammo.  I have never heard anybody mention this before, and I have been 
around and been interested in the weapon for a while now.  If you have or 
know of any sources for this info, I would sure like to see it.  Off list if 
you prefer.  Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 13:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 12:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409115948.027e20f0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B73@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409151639.02480008@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:01 PM 4/9/2002, laning wrote:
>[A ship owner who has] incurred a loss and been reimbursed the 90% of fair 
>market value [...] hires bounty hunters to recover the ship.  Payment will 
>be to split all profits from selling the recovered ship, after first 
>making up the 10% that wasn't insured and then covering all expenses incurred.

No; the insurance company will guard against scams of this nature by 
insisting that, if the ship is recovered after the claim is paid, it 
belongs to the insurance company and not the insured.  In this case, the 
insurance company will generally sell the ship, and if (after deducting the 
expenses related to recovering and selling it) the insurance company 
recovers more than the 90% of the fair market value that they paid for the 
claim, the extra monies are split in some way (that will vary from policy 
to policy) between the insurance company, the people who recovered the 
ship, and the original owners.

Bounty hunters can work for or with insurance companies, or for the 
owner.  If the ship can be recovered quickly, inexpensively, and with 
little damage, the  owner can recover the ship without having to make a 
claim - the only cost is the cost of the recovery fee (maybe into the 
hundreds of thousands of credits).  But, in general, the ship will not be 
so easily recovered (or once recovered, will not be in the condition it was 
when it was stolen).

So, ship owners will generally want to file a claim, and let the insurance 
company worry about recovering the ship.  Recovering and selling the ship - 
even at a fraction of it's full value represents a huge reduction in the 
insurance company's loss.  Thus, they will tend to employ bounty hunters 
and skip tracers to recover ships, and some type of fee-splitting 
arrangement that provides an incentive for the bounty hunters to recover 
the ship with as much of it's original value as possible.  This would 
probably involve a salary, retainer, or base fee for any recovery (again, 
maybe ranging into the hundreds of thousands of credits), plus a bonus if 
the ship's resale value exceeds the company's cost for the claim and recovery.

This does leave open one possible scam - the owner or crew could "steal" 
their own ship, abandon it, file an insurance claim and take their 
90%.  Once the ship is recovered, if they can re-purchase it at auction for 
less than 90% of original market value, the original owners will now own 
the ship free and clear, plus some amount of profit.  On the other hand, 
the ship may now be in need of expensive re-certification and other work to 
make it space worthy.  Not to mention the cost of increased insurance 
premiums ... and the amount of scrutiny that they will get from insurance 
and law enforcement.

>One racket would be owner and crew cooperating to make the ship seem to be 
>stolen, get their 80% or 90% from the insurance company, then the crew 
>goes off as bounty hunters and "recovers" the ship from the "thieves", 
>they sell the ship for nearly it's fair market value, and they've just 
>made a profit of circa 80% of the value of a ship.

Nope - first off, the insurance company will investigate the heck out of 
this scenario.  In the second case, the proceeds from the sale of the ship 
will go to the insurance company, and only a tiny fraction will be paid to 
the "bounty hunters".  In general, the amount they'd see from this scam 
(90% insurance payment plus 0%-2% recovery bonus) will be less than if 
they'd sold the ship outright at fair market value.

In theory, this scenario can be used to scam the bank of a ship which is 
subject to a mortgage.  The ship is "stolen" by it's own crew, the 
insurance pays the bank note off (leaving the crew ship-less and 
mortgage-less).  It is then "recovered" by the crew, who get paid a 
recovery fee or bonus by the insurance company.  This isn't nearly enough 
for a new ship (or even a down payment on one), but could still be a nice 
amount of money.  Even in this case, I'm sure the bank and insurance 
company would investigate, and may even "blackball" the captain and crew, 
so that they cannot obtain another bank mortgage on a ship easily.  It will 
probably still happen - but not often.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092000.DSB05659@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>
>As the distance gets longer, wind has its effect on the 
>little 5.56 much more than the 7.62.  But the usual 
>distances in match competitions is 200, 300 and 600 yards, 
>at which distances the M16 is supreme.  It is possible to 
>get superior accuracy at even longer ranges with the M16, 
>but they have to use very heavy bullets (80 grains+) that 
>will not fit in the M16 mags.  As you talked about in your 
>post, the M16 becomes a single shot.  With this 
>proviso, the M16 is beating the M14 at all ranges now in 
>competitions.  I think they are even getting good results at 
>1,000 yards, but these are obviously not issue weapons.
>

I've shot for fun at ranges where state police were 
practicing with their mouse guns.  I was using a Remington 
700 Police DM in .308, with a new barrel.  Past 300 yards, 
there was an incremental advantage, which really opened up at 
about 500 yards (hey, there really IS a morning glory effect).

They were not smirking afterwards.  They wanted my weapon.

>Anyway, when we are talking 1,000 yards we are really 
>talking about ranges for snipers, not infantry.
>

OK.  But how do we identify these men if the basic weapon 
can't do half the sniper's range?

>Certainly ridiculous for me.  An M14 would have to be pretty 
>tweaked to consistantly make shots like that, and you would 
>need optics.  It is a very poor platform for optics and the 
>M14 needs constant maintanence to keep excellent accuracy.  

I never had a maintenance problem with the M-21, nor were the 
optics a problem.  I would recommend not taking off the 
sights (some mounts I saw later were silver soldered to 
prevent removal).  They are not "tweaked" so much as 
specifically chosen/selected and then "gone over" to be 
properly re-bedded (glass bedding certain areas).  A lot of 
factory rifles today (bolt-actions) come with aluminum 
bedding blocks as standard, and have higher quality barrels 
than virtually any military rifle.  So many of them are 
accurate enough "out of the box" to give any semi-auto (and 
this includes a tricked out M-16) a run for its money.

Even though Remington has had its quality control problems 
over the years, I could take virtually any Sendero model out 
of the box and out range anyone with a tricked out M-16.  
Mind you, this means that I would have to set up the shooting 
situation (ambush), but if I had the ability to start the 
fight at a distance and place of my choosing, I'm probably 
going to put several people down before any of the rounds 
come anywhere near me.  At that point, they'll be shooting at 
a target not much larger than a grapefruit, with a round that 
won't penetrate a sandbag at that range (the long bodied 
match rounds are not penetrators).

I am quite sure that if I had a suppressor (not completely 
quiet, but masking the point of origin of the shooting), and 
was using the Mark V M3 10x, and had the strap-on KN-250 
night vision scope, I would probably put down as many people 
as I had rounds in the magazine if the engagement was at 
night.  And that would be at a distance of over 600 yards.  
I'm not sure that the targets (coming out of an area known 
and already spotted) would have much chance of spotting me 
with naked eye, or anything short of thermals).  Just looking 
for me would be suicidal.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:39:44PM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409141022.A18068@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:39:44PM -0400, laning wrote:
>
> >No-one should ever be forced to give away his labour--that would be
> >slavery.  But OTOH it must be recognised that if _I_ give mine away,
> >then _you_ will have a hard time selling yours.  But that is, to be
> >quite honest, your problem.
> 
> I believe that a lot of people new to the situation rather expect
> that gaming companies are big faceless corporations with deep
> pockets, when really they are just the opposite.

No argument there--I've heard the stories.  Heck, a quick look through
con photos in any gaming mag proves the point:-)

But that doesn't matter.  Free software is not about sticking it to
Bill Gates; it's about free software.  Gaming is not about sticking to
to gaming companies (they're generally good people); it's about
gaming.

> I don't know if your "But that is...your problem" remark was
> intended to sound quite as callous as it came across to me in print,
> but that's just me, and as you say that's my problem.

I didn't mean it to sound callous, more as a statement of fact.  What
I meant is that if I produce work (which is my right) and I free it
(which is my right), then someone who produces work (which is his
right) and keeps it proprietary (which is also his right) will have to
do a _much_ better job than I do in order to compete.

I don't feel bad about that, any more than I would if I produced work
and simply sold it for less than the other guy.  I actually feel
_less_ bad, because I have given my work to the world, to do with as
it pleases.

Should Steve Jackson feel bad that he has made it very difficult for
another universal RPG system to be produced?  Of course not.  Should
Marc Miller feel bad that he has upped the ante for science fiction
roleplaying?  Certainly not!  Should Loren Wiseman feel bad that he
has set an incredible precedent for GURPS Traveller supplements?
Perish the thought.  Each has done a wonderful job, and each has made
it harder for another to succeed (a new universal RPG must be better
than GURPs; a new sci-fi RPG must have a better setting the the Third
Imperium; a new series of Traveller supplements must be better than
the GURPS line; these are all tall orders).

Should any of the above feel bad that their own brilliant success has
made it more difficult for me to follow in their footsteps?  No.
Should I be upset?  No.

So what's the difference between them and me?  Don't say that my own
IP is not as precious to me as to them.  I love travlib dearly.  It's
the best work I've ever produced.

If they should not feel bad about out-competing me, why should I feel
bad about out-competing them?  If I should not feel bad that they
out-competed me, why should they feel bad if I out-compete them?

Not that I'd directly compete with any of the above.  I write
software, not supplements.  And yes, my hope is for my GPLed
Traveller-compatible software to enable a lot of other programmers to
write more Traveller-compatible software.  And it doesn't bother me
that this will make it more difficult for others to profit from
proprietary Traveller-compatible software.  Why should it, any more
than it bothers Stephen King that he's made it more difficult for
other to profit from horror novels?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Distracting factors leading to traffic accidents:
  - object or person outside the car 30%
  - adjusting the radio or CD player 11%
  - dealing with another occupant in the car 11%
  - cellular phones 1.5%
     --Highway Safety Research Center at the University of North Carolina

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:13:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:13:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
Message-ID: <F67WW92A0HoXONfjxJJ00006b11@hotmail.com>

Thomas Vickers wrote:

>I don't know about that. I saw a story on the History channel about a 
>Marine
>officer in Korea I think. He made his men take bayonet practice even though
>it was outdated.  They got pinned down on patrol and ran out of ammo.  THe
>officer led a successful bayonet charge up a hill which wiped out the North
>Koreans. That sounds a bit drastic, but useful.

I remember thinking one time when I was staring down the barrel of a .45, 
"thank God he does not have a knife."  Getting penetrated by a knife is 
somehow terrifying, and it also gives the wielder credible non-lethal 
options.  I think there have been several instances in recent times when 
bayonet charges have routed the enemy, even if no one actually got stabbed.  
A bayonet would be vital for handling prisoners, and possibly even reluctant 
heroes.  ;)

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:23:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:23:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408135946.02824dd0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D89BAB.38054%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 11:39 AM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> With government-issue ammo for the M-16 and M-16A1, prior to the switch to
> the NATO-standard ammo we use for the M-16A2, you are lucky to get 2300
> feet per second of muzzle velocity.  About 2700 is the nominal MV that the
> government is paying its vendors to deliver, but not getting.

Something is way wrong.  Spec velocity for M193 55gn ball is supposed to be
3250 fps.  You're saying it 2300?!  I've got a bunch of contract stuff.
I'll try to run it through the chrony this weekend.

Found some specs for military ammo:

     "U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition require a 55
grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity of 3,250 q 40 fps from a 20
inch test barrel measured 15 feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement
from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean radius at 200
yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates to approximately three MOA).
"Statistically average" M193 ranges from 1.2 to 1.6 inches mean radius,
which is equivalent to 1.8 to 2.4 MOA. "

     "NATO specifications for SS109 (U.S. M855) Ball require a 61.7 grain
(q 1.5 grains) with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,025 fps
(q 40 fps) from a 20 inch barrel 25 meters from the muzzle. Typical
velocity 15 feet from the M16A2's muzzle is around 3,100 fps. The accuracy
requirement from a test fixture equates to a maximum of approximately four
MOA over the 100 to 600 yard range. Typical accuracy of average lots in an
M16A2 is about 2+ MOA. This round must also penetrate a nominal 10 gauge
SAE 1010 or 1020 steel test plate at a range of at least 570 meters (623
yards). "
 
> I did all my reading on this topic over a dozen years ago, but I seem to
> recall that there has been plenty of reliable material published that
> debunked the notion of the magical differences causing the 5.56 to tumble,
> etc. when no other bullets were able to achieve the same effect.  I said
> that very poorly.  What I mean is that government-issue 5.56 in Viet Nam
> had much poorer effectiveness beyond very limited ranges, compared to other
> assault rifle and battle rifle ammunition.

All rifle bullets tumble when transiting media.  The M193 round just does it
quicker.  I direct you to several like animal and ballistic studies that
confirm this.  Try The International wound ballistics association
publications or my personal favorite "Antipersonnel Weapons" published by
SIPRI.  There are some rather high speed photographs.

It should be noted that analysis of casualties in the Vietnam war showed the
5.56x45mm to be 11% more likely to produce a casualty (lethal) than
7.62x51mm.  Of course the NVA and VC may have just dragged off all the
bodies with 7.62 holes in them to confise us poor Americans.

> Including poorer 
> accuracy.  

What?!  The M-16 has consistently proved to have a smaller MOA than the M-14
since adoption and up to the present day.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
Message-ID: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Look at Shellshock.  It's just a combat system, but 
it's "free".  The idea is to get everyone to use it, and then 
sell them ancillary product.  In their case, selling "instant 
terrain", etc.

You would still need to defend the intellectual property 
rights of the "free" part of the game, or some game company 
would run off with it.

The core part of GURPS might as well be "free".  I think that 
SJ Games makes most of their money off of all of those 
supplements.  And you have to keep making new supplements in 
order to make money.  It's not an industry with a lot of 
margin in it, either.  Software is expensive to create, more 
so than any role-playing game.  We really should pay someone 
like Loren or Doug a LOT more money for their work.  Imagine 
if Loren was paid as much to write these things as I am paid 
to design software architectures.  Doug would be able to 
spend ALL of this time writing - which I know would radically 
improve his quality and output.  Not that it's bad -- but he 
wouldn't have to do *anything* else (well, maybe feed 
penguins).  And if he had any economic worries (believe me, 
real life intrudes), they might be a lighter burden if he 
knew he had decent medical insurance, paid vacation, and a 
steady income from what he loves to do.

Mind you, we would all run out and apply for the job if that 
were true.

What I would be willing to pay for is a more well-thought out 
game.  I was willing to pay over 500 dollars to accumulate 
the whole PCCS set of books, just to get a "combat system".  
Note that I said "just".  If I could get that detail and 
quality (or better) in a single book, I would gladly pay over 
100 dollars for it (heck, I paid 200 for the Riverside 
Shakespeare, and you can download Shakespeare plays).  I 
would much rather have that than an endless series of rule 
books.

OTOH, I do want an endless series of adventure books, 
background, etc.  I would pay 10 to 20 dollars a month for a 
subscription to a monthly edition of JTAS which would have to 
be equal in quality and depth to a non-gaming magazine 
(Precision Shooting).  Unfortunately, there are more 
benchrest shooters than Traveller players with money.

Given our numbers, and given what we really want and expect, 
we really need to reconsider the economic model.  And not 
just from the perspective of "let's go make a free game".

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:39:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:39:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJMHOMNLPGJDBGHAGCEBECFAA.samdraper@lansource.net>
Message-ID: <B8D89F67.3805D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/8/02 12:46 PM, Sam Draper at samdraper@lansource.net wrote:
> 
> That is very interesting.  I have read in tests that little darts at high
> velocities are remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do
> little tissue damage.  But odd things happen at high velocities.  I'll see
> if I can dig up my source.

It depends on how well they are stabilized.  The trick is to make a
projectile stable in air, but unstable in tissue.  As tissue is about 800
times denser, this is generally not a problem.  As you are doubtlessly
aware, all projectiles tend to yaw, and this tendency is exacerbated when
transiting media.  The long, thin projectile tends to tumble and bend,
creating large permanent wound tracks.  Also, a quick review of Mach's
equation will show that retardation rates for these long projectiles are
high, meaning that more energy is dumped into the target more quickly.

Lastly, it is much easier to drive 'darts' at very high velocities. once a
projectile passes 1450 m/s, the speed of sound in tissue, there is a
dramatic increase in tissue damage.

See Charters & Charters (1976):

Experiments conducted with steel spheres at velocities around 2000 m/s
showed that such projectiles  "could be expected to have significantly
different wounding effect than larger spheres, with approximately the same
energy, impacting at about 750 m/s. The smaller spheres showed less
penetration in gelatin blocks, but much greater lateral damage."

And later: "This type of wound would be particularly disabling and may
require new approaches to debridement and wound closure."

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:48:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:48:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092046.DSD03610@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>     "U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition 
>require a 55 grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity 
>of 3,250 q 40 fps from a 20 inch test barrel measured 15 
>feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement
>from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean 
>radius at 200 yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates 
>to approximately three MOA).

back in 1989, we tested 5.56mm SS109 from four different 
M16A2 (we just got them) at 300 yards.  The range was 
outdoors, so wind was a factor.  The shooters were not your 
run of the mill soldiers.  The lesson was that shooting 
outdoors is not shooting in a test tunnel.  The average group 
size was over 12 inches (some people managed smaller - as 
small as 4 inches).

Using the M-21 without the scope, just NM iron sights, using 
M118 special ball, we all managed 3 to 4 inch groups.

I'm not sure what I would ascribe the difference to, other 
than quality of weapon and quality of ammunition.  

Something else to consider - there is a maximum degree of 
engineering tolerance that you can measure and control when 
manufacturing or reloading ammunition.  The reason that I 
stick to .30 caliber is that those tolerances have less 
effect on a larger, heavier round.  The bullet is larger and 
heavier, the case larger, and the powder charge heavier.  So 
if I vary by the same amount, there's less of an effect - 
more consistent ammunition.

Another reminder - in benchrest shooting, if you don't limit 
the magnification or weapon weight, people tend to the .22 
PPC.  It's an *extremely* accurate round out of extremely 
accurate rifles.  But as soon as the magnification is limited 
to 6x, or the weapons are firing from NM iron sights, 
the .308 rules, even over the 6mm PPC.  The .223 Remington - 
is not seen - in benchrest circles.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:53:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:53:05 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204052106.DKT05405@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.110558.7F2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I don't know how Tod manages it.  I've worked at several 
> places, and I only have to invite one person shooting, and 
> they see "the rifle" and then they go back and tell everyone 
> in the place.

"the rifle"?

What is it, a Barret .50 or something? 

> I went out and bought another one.  But it's not like the 
> place I work for now really needs to know that.  You really 
> are treated as a second-class citizen, just for owning a 
> firearm.

I'd be surprised if that happened around here.

> I don't know how Tod does it, or Mark, or some of the other 
> NFA holders.  People would jump out of their skins here if I 
> told them I was going to buy an NFA weapon.

Ok, *that* I can understand.

> ObTrav:  We really like the Traveller universe, because 
> people expect adventurers to buy and carry weapons.

I suspect that folks are still gonna get a bit uncomfortable around
folks who are "over-armed" for the situation. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:54:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:54:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <20020405.142533.-122687.3.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20409.111006.0U8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> How about oosik? 
>
> Say what??? What's Oosik??

It's the penis bone of walruses.

Yes, many mammals have a *real* "boner". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:55:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:55:50 2002
Subject: [TML] The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.111435.4V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I strongly believe that our unwillingness to slaughter the 
> survivors is making an unintended impact on the likelihood of 
> war.  People stop fighting when either they don't exist, or 
> they know deep in their hearts that they were defeated.  
> Marched through the public square, that sort of thing.  Their 
> army put to the sword.  Read the Old Testament -- it's full 
> of that sort of instruction -- when you win, kill everyone in 
> their Army (actually the instructions are to kill everything 
> except the trees: every man, woman, child, and animal).
>
> It's barbaric, I know.  But if you want to get the message 
> across that Our Side Won and Your Side Lost, that's what you 
> have to do.
>
> ObTrav:  Why aren't races like ther Vilani nuking their 
> opponents planets into barbecued cinders?  It's not like 
> we're planning on holding a Zhodani world, is it?
>
> I would think that there would be a strategic advantage to 
> nuke an opponent's planets as soon as you could unload enough 
> missiles to make it through the planetary defenses.  Their 
> ships might have to chase those missiles instead of firing on 
> the attackers.  And how many nukes does it really take to lay 
> waste to an advanced industrial society?

If they have reason to *expect* that sort of thing? 

A *lot*. Especially given that once nuclear damper tech is available,
decontamination is a matter of raising the decay rate of the fallout
and other contaminated material as high as you can without generating
more heat than you want to deal with. 

A planet is a *big* place. 

There's also the fact that if you do it to them, you'd better expect
them to return the favor.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:57:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:57:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020405164806.00a49df0@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <20409.112410.6E7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:20:15 -0700, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>
>>Fear of being on the receiving end.  I'm quite afraid of a gun or
>>blade pointed at me.  But fear of being on the giving end is a bit
>>strange.  It's like being afraid of a jacket.
>
> Put me down as afraid of guns, then.  Being in the presence of a real, 
> functioning weapon makes me nervous.  In most circumstances, I would refuse 
> to even hold one.
>
> To some extent, this is probably because I was never acclimated to them as 
> a youth, through hunting or whatever.  But I am similarly nervous around 
> anything that can cause death or serious injury, even/especially by 
> accident or negligence.

Knives, chainsaw, cars, hammers, baseball bats....

> For example, I used to work at a gas station; part 
> of my job was refilling propane cylinders from the big tank out back.  I 
> hated it.  The stuff was cryo-cold, flammable, explosive, and under high 
> pressure.  I was trained for it, but I still hated it.

I used to work around stuff like hydrofluoric acid and 180 C baths of
concentrated caustic (NaOH/KOH mix). 

I was *cautious*. I wasn't scared.

Someone who *was* scared managed to splash himself with weak HF
solution *because* he was scared. Rather than lower the carrier
carefully into the bath by the handle, he'd *drop* them.

Rational caution is one thing. *Fear* is quite another.

> There's also the "with great power comes great responsibility" angle.
> I do not want or need the power to maim or kill another human being,
> or the responsibility that necessarily comes with it.

I take it that you don't drive then. 

Seriously. a car is a deadlier weapon than most guns.

> It's a lot harder to kill someone with a jacket.  Definitely not 
> impossible, but jackets are not primarily designed to apply deadly 
> force.  A firearm is, and I grant them all the respect they are due
> as a result.

Knives are primarily designed to cut flesh. It's all in how you use a
tool. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:58:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:58:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405170925.0395eec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20409.114039.8S6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In other words, I have a hard time justifying the lack of nuclear 
> devastation in Traveller canon and would dearly love to have strong and 
> convincing reasons for it.

It takes an unreasonable amount of effort to damage a *planet*. 

Destroying cities and installations on or near the surface is easier,
but still, a lot of effort. 

You've got to realize that there are lots of places on earth, hell,
even in the US where you could set off the biggest nuke ever made, and
the folks a town or two over wouldn't notice anything but the fallout.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 14:59:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 13:59:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20409.114950.6a1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> But mutual destruction is not assured.  One side would have to win a 
> years-long naval campaign in order to deliver its nuclear warheads against 
> all the appropriate targets.  Strephon, from the comfort of his Capital 
> doesn't fear in the least for his own safety or his families in the event 
> of nuclear exchange with the Zhodani.  And the Vargr Extents are such a 
> hotheaded place that I cannot be convinced all the nuclear warheads that 
> have been in that region for centuries were never used due to its leaders' 
> very enlightened view about protecting civilization.  As the Sword Worlders 
> should have nuked whoever they were ticked at many times over by now.  And 
> the Aslan prize honor well above their own individual lives.  Aside from 
> cultural biases toward or away nuclear warfare, there have just been so 
> many _individual_ sophonts with their fingers on the button in different 
> times and places that it should have happened many times by now.

Remember, nuking a *planet* is about the same "scale" as nuking a
*city* now. At least relative to the sizes of the major players.

But it involves a *lot* more effort. We are talking tens to *hundreds*
of *thousands* of warheads. And that's just for a "sparse" coverage. 

A size 7 world is 7000 miles in diameter. That gives a surface area of
over 150 *million* square miles. That means that if you hit it with
10,000 warheads they'll average 125 miles apart!

With 100,000, they'll average a bit under 40 miles apart.

Planets are *big*.

> And in a way, the game's authors agree with that notion.  But only in 
> general.  There seems to be a lack of specific worlds that have actually 
> been thoroughly nuked over to go with the general history of 
> destruction.  Let me go through all the relevant canonical evidence that 
> come to my (sputtering and unreliable) memory to see what each one in turn 
> makes me think about how MAD affected things.
>
> The canonical instances of nuclear warfare I can think of are:
> The Ancients War
> Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani
> Presumably the N Interstellar wars
> Presumably on rare occasions during the Long Night
> Very early in Zhodani history
> Not all that long ago (they still haven't fully recovered, at least) from 
> on Darrian

No, what happened to the Darrians was an accident. An induced solar
"flare" of incredible magnitude. Sort of a "mini-nova". 

> At least I think it was nukes with Darrian.  Or something just as 
> devastating, so the MAD concept would still apply.

Except the Darrians are the only ones who have the Star Trigger. 

> I can easily accept that enough time has passed since nuclear weapons were 
> used by the Ancients that we shouldn't look for reduced populations or 
> uninhabitable areas due to them.  But their war is an example of none of 
> the sides being deterred by MAD.
>
> The war against the Ziru Sirka should have left marks on various planets 
> that would have been mentioned elsewhere in canon.  It is an example of 
> just how geographically vast wars between interstellar powers are, and how 
> that makes MAD unlikely.
>
> There don't seem to be any worlds still showing mentionable signs of 
> nuclear weapons from the N Instellar Wars.  Ditto for examples from the 
> Long Night.

You are forgetting that with nuclear dampers, you can clean up the
radioactive contamination *easily*. and unless truly amazing numbers of
weapons are used, the actual *blast* damage will easily disappear on
something as big as a planet. 

> Darrian seems to be a good canonical instance of nuclear warfare happening 
> specifically somewhere, not just in a general way to somebody.

That wasn't anything as trivial as a nuclear war. The Maghiz clobbered
electronics and the like for *parsecs* from the Darrian home system.

> I find it hard to believe there are no famous specific examples of worlds 
> in the Core sector being "razed" by nukes dropped by one of the Barracks 
> Emperors or wannabes.  Civil wars tend to be the least civil, as the old 
> saying goes.

You are missing the *scale* of things. Dropping a nuke on a planet is
(relatively speaking) equivalent to throwing a grenade into a *room* of
a building in a city. At worst, blowing up a small building. 

You won't find the damage unless you *look* for it. 

> There are also quite a few canonical instances of balkanized worlds or 
> neighboring worlds that are on the brink of total nuclear warfare in the 
> current timeline.  If such tensions have careened towards the brink so 
> often in current times, how could they have been so consistently avoided 
> during the pasts of all the locations that canon visits and shows us.

Maybe they weren't. 

It's just that contrary to popular belief, anything short of the level
required to trigger something like a nuclear winter, *won't* be all
that noticeable even 300 years later. 

Even without damper tech, in 300 years high-level nuclear waste will be
no more radioactive than the original uranium ore. Stuff like fallout
would take careful tests to detect. The craters of surface blasts would
be detectable with radiation detectors. But only as areas a bit more
radioactive than normal. 

Bulldoze the dirt and rubble from the "total destruction" zone around
the crater into it (a good idea to both fill the hole and to help
"immobilize" the contaminated material) and it'd be hard to tell after
even a hundred years.

Remember, the more radioactive something is, the *shorter* the
half-life, and thus the quicker it becomes safe.

So, short of researching local history, or doing a *detailed* survey of
an area, you'd never know that there'd been a nuclear war unless it was
*really* bad.


Which reminds me. Some day I need to sit down and try to figure out
what would be required to produce a "burned off" world such as appears
in some of Norton's books. Especially something like "the Big Burn" on
Terra from "Plague Ship". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:01:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:01:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.121152.9P1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>      "Presumably the war between the Vilani Empire and Solomani."
>
>      Canon is littered with references to the Vilani "way" of war being 
> brutally pragmatic.  IMHO, the Ziru Sirka would have used nukes early and 
> often.  Then again, I have trouble believing the canonical description of 
> the Interstellar War anyway.
>      GT:RoF has the Vilani visiting Terra after the 2nd War.  These 
> representatives of the ZS must have been either brain dead or traitors not 
> to bring an accurate report back to Dingir from Sol.  After being shown a 
> ~10 billion humans on an industrialized world, the "brutally pragmatic" 
> Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt.

Sorry, not *possible*. Not even the third Imperium has *that* kind of
firepower. 

It'd (barely) be possible to "pave" the surface, if you had *lots* of
time and money..

>      All the explanations about population levels, internal Vilani politics, 
> blah, blah, blah, are just liberal doses of handwavium.  With the 
> superioroty in maneuver drives and missile tech that RoF claims for them, 
> the Ziro Sirka would have, could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it 
> glowed.

Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
Millions, hundreds of millions.

>      Perhaps, or maybe it's just damper technology.  I don't have Striker to 
> hand, but IIRC dampers pretty much draw the fangs out of nukes.  How 
> easy/hard would it be for PDFs to maintain damper coverage for an entire 
> world?  Could such coverage be projected from orbit by naval vessels?  If 
> so, the 3I could show up above some balkanized world with a nasty squabble 
> taking place and declare a "no-nukes" zone with a couple of orbitting 
> escorts.

It'd be easier to just "sweep" areas with dampers set to "mildly"
accelerate reactions and cause any chunks of fissionables above a
certain size to melt into puddles (which could lead to messy side
reactions as the spreading puddles meet).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:02:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:02:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <010301c1de1d$72819f80$a85d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20409.125213.4J9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>> I agree, war may be getting less lethal, but that's only because
>> humanity redefined mass death in the 20th century.  Wars don't kill
>> that many people, instead mass murder has become a separate
>> thing.  The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the horrors in
>> Rwanda all had death tolls *far* in excess of any war (or of almost
>> any other act in human history).  Mass death is now something
>> separate from war, but far *more* people are dying now than before.
>
> The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
> Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
> million or more - far greater than the examples given above.

The camps didn't just kill Jews. Add in the homosexuals and gypsies and
you get more than 10 million.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] G:Ground Forces queston
In-Reply-To: <B8D3910E.30E8%jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20409.133914.4F8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In the Grav vehicle design section, duct fans are listed as having a
> positive energy amount, instead of negative.  Is this an error or do they
> actually act as power plants?

Well, unless they are driven electrically, they are engines turning the
fans.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:05:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:05:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonded Superdense, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <B8D3B11B.377EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20409.134026.4K8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/5/02 7:30 PM, Trista at asmahan@the-spa.com wrote:
>
>> Hmmm, that sounds like the book 'Forlorn Hope'; mercenaries use
>> something called a 'cone bore rifle', the barrel of which is supposedly
>> of diamond and fires an osmium needle which is compressed as it travels
>> through the barrel and reaches hypervelocites. Had them in cannon size
>> too as I recall.

And it was one of those artillery sized ones that got them in trouble.
They managed to shoot down a multi-billion credit starship with it.

Thus causing the opposition to specifically *exclude* them from the
amnesty. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:06:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:06:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Flechettes
Message-ID: <200204092052.DSD04457@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn
<snip about flechettes>

See Dr. Fackler at
http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/pmrb.html

There are the other bullets we were discussing there, as well 
as Fackler talking about flechettes.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:08:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:08:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:35:30PM -0400
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:35:30PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> You would still need to defend the intellectual property 
> rights of the "free" part of the game, or some game company 
> would run off with it.

That's the difference philosophy between the GPL and BSD.  The GPL
says `this is free, and whatever you do with it must also be free.'
The BSD says `this is free; enjoy.'  I'm partial to the GPL, simply
because otherwise someone else can take that work and profit from
closing it.  But there are good arguments for both models, depending
on what one's goals are.

Tax-funded work, for instance, should be BSD-licensed, never
proprietary, thus allowing everyone to use it.

> We really should pay someone like Loren or Doug a LOT more money for
> their work.

Well, it's all a matter of what the market will bear.  Software pays
better because there's more demand.  RPGs pay worse because there's
not as much.

I try to help by purchasing about as many RPGs as I can afford (I've
got almost all of the main GT line, including GT:FT, GT:FI and GT:GF).
I figure that Loren, Doug, Marc and the rest all deserve a bit for the
good work they've done.

The fact that I collect RPGs doesn't enter into it:-)

> What I would be willing to pay for is a more well-thought out 
> game.

That's part of the value add one gets with a professional editor.
Most people cannot properly edit their own work.  I wonder if it might
not be possible for there to be money in taking freely-available work
and compiling it onto one large work.  Slap a compilation copyright
over the whole thing (to prevent others from just grabbing it up), but
the individual pieces are still free for anyone.

> Heck, I paid 200 for the Riverside Shakespeare, and you can download
> Shakespeare plays.

Yup.  Shakespeare's copy rights long ago expired--yet there's still a
market in them.  And there's still a market in plays, despite the fact
that, AFAICT, no-one's managed to do any better since.

> Given our numbers, and given what we really want and expect, we
> really need to reconsider the economic model.  And not just from the
> perspective of "let's go make a free game".

Well, something folks should realise is that it's not a free game in
the sense of money: a lot of work and effort would go into such a
thing.  I've spent man-months working on travlib and travtrack; I've
poured a lot of my life into them.  The same would hold for a free
system.  It's free in the sense of freedom; anyone could enjoy its
use.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If your adversary is badly bunkered, there is no rule against your
standing over him and counting his strokes aloud, but it will be a wise
precaution to arm yourself with the niblick before doing so, so as to
meet him on equal terms.                 --Horace G. Hutchinson, 1886

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:10:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:10:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F164o8C7wyfwjHNuQuN000048cd@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon:

>I've shot for fun at ranges where state police were
>practicing with their mouse guns.  I was using a Remington
>700 Police DM in .308, with a new barrel.  Past 300 yards,
>there was an incremental advantage, which really opened up at
>about 500 yards (hey, there really IS a morning glory effect).
>
>They were not smirking afterwards.  They wanted my weapon.

True, issue semi-autos do not have the accuracy of accurized bolt guns.  But 
the AR-15 is pretty close, as close as it comes really.  Comparing police 
issue M16s (Vietnam era M16A1s or carbines?) to a 700 Police DM is really 
apples and oranges.

> >Anyway, when we are talking 1,000 yards we are really
> >talking about ranges for snipers, not infantry.
> >
>
>OK.  But how do we identify these men if the basic weapon
>can't do half the sniper's range?

I think most Marines can hit a torso sized target at 500 yards about 100% of 
the time.  I don't think I am going out on a limb by saying their chances of 
hitting the target at that range is not going to be any greater with an M14. 
  Certainly a match M16 can beat a match M14 at that range (absent extreme 
winds).

>I never had a maintenance problem with the M-21, nor were the
>optics a problem.  I would recommend not taking off the
>sights (some mounts I saw later were silver soldered to
>prevent removal).

What mount are you using?  I have never found one that repeats zero after 
removal, and I am not comoftable with having to resight a weapon every time 
I want to give it a thorough cleaning.  I have looked at the ARMS mount, and 
it looks pretty solid, but it will still not be as good as mounting optic 
direcly on the reciever like you can with the M16A4.

>They are not "tweaked" so much as
>specifically chosen/selected and then "gone over" to be
>properly re-bedded (glass bedding certain areas).

The problem with the M14 is that the bedding needs to be redone every 
season.  Otherwise, its accuracy will deteriorate.  The M16 does not need 
bedding, and it can easily be free-floated.

>factory rifles today (bolt-actions) come with aluminum
>bedding blocks as standard, and have higher quality barrels
>than virtually any military rifle.  So many of them are
>accurate enough "out of the box" to give any semi-auto (and
>this includes a tricked out M-16) a run for its money.

I would say that most commercial rifles, like the ones from Wal-Mart, would 
definately not get better accuracy than a match M16.  Certainly a tricked 
out or upgraded bolt action would probably be better than a tricked out M16 
though.

>Even though Remington has had its quality control problems
>over the years, I could take virtually any Sendero model out
>of the box and out range anyone with a tricked out M-16.

Of course it depends on what you are doing.  Would you arm an entire army 
with Senderos?  It is not exactly the ideal close-quarters weapon.  Sure, 
the bolt gun would be superior to an M16 in the specific scenario you 
mention, but that does not necessarily make it superior in all situations.  
The M16A2 is a classic Jack of all Trades weapon.  Capable of aimed fire out 
to 500 yards, most effective at under 200 yards, which (they say) is where 
most infantry combat takes place.  While the M16 may have rang limits, it is 
supported by a variety of longer range weapons.  I think the army, when 
adopting the M16, correctly decided that there is a real limit to how far 
the average infantryman can shoot effectively, and adopted a weapon that is 
optimized for that range.  The longer range stuff is the responsiblity of 
the supporting weapons (which you left out of your sniper scenario).

On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off some 
M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and issuing them at 
the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max 500 yards?) and sniper 
(800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the guy with the M14 the 
"designated marksman" or something like that.  The guy who wrote the article 
I read did not like the idea, because of the the difficulties associated 
with the accurized M14s as stated above and standardization issues, but from 
what I understand these were deployed to Afghanistan so we should be getting 
reports soon.

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:11:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:11:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204072135.DON00704@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D8A4C3.3806F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 2:35 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> laning asks
>> 
>> Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread,
>> mentioning the ability of various Traveller races to cope
>> with recoil, I should have also mentioned battle dress.
>> That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more recoil.  But
>> how much?
>> 
> 
> Good question.  I've always wondered about this, because if
> you could carry large weapons and handle high recoil, you
> would have a semi-auto rifle that fired high velocity 20mm
> (not low velocity 20mm like the OICW).
> 
> 20mm californium rounds, that is.  The one part of Striker I
> really liked.  Hit someone in battledress and watch the
> little mushroom cloud.

With 'soft recoil' weapons, you can shoot some pretty big stuff.  The
problem is having any accuracy when shooting off a non-rigid platform (like
a person).

I have a photo somewhere of someone shooting a .50 Browing machinegun (soft
recoil version) full auto off their shoulder.

How does 'soft recoil' work you ask?

In a simple example, a large percentage of the weapon is capable of movement
within its mount.  The moving portion (including the barrel and bolt)  is
held rearward under spring pressure.  On firing, the moving assembly is
propelled forward, with the actual round being fired at some predetermined
point, usually just before 'run out'.  The rearward force of firing must
overcome the forward momentum of the assembly before any recoil is felt.

This is the reason that open bolt SMGs have less recoil than closed bolt
guns.

it is quite possible to design gun of fairly large caliber and KE that can
be fired tolerably by a person.

The problem with these systems is maintaining point of aim while the
assembly goes rocketing forward before the round is actually fired.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:12:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:12:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8D8A503.38070%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 3:05 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth
> for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and
> for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females
> it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing.
> Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how
> old the data is.

I just looked at my spreadsheets and see that the thickness I used was
actually 25 cm.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:14:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:14:52 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204092104.DSD06042@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson asks
>
>"the rifle"?

Remington 700 Police DM, in .308. (Comes with HS Precision 
stock with integral aluminum bedding block). Action 
reworked/firing pin replaced with titanium pin, barrel 
replaced with heavy contour Douglas Premium Match barrel, 
Timney trigger, Leupold Mark V M3 10x scope with mil-dot 
reticle, NEAR one-piece scope base optimized to get the most 
elevation adjustement out of the scope, Vortex flash 
suppressor, bipod, Simrad KN-250 GEN III night vision with 
adapter to fit over Leupold Mark V.

Some were frightened just by seeing it, some by going to the 
range with me and *seeing* it.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F36GB9wIWXLU9778dvM000038ae@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon said:

>back in 1989, we tested 5.56mm SS109 from four different
>M16A2 (we just got them) at 300 yards.  The range was
>outdoors, so wind was a factor.  The shooters were not your
>run of the mill soldiers.  The lesson was that shooting
>outdoors is not shooting in a test tunnel.  The average group
>size was over 12 inches (some people managed smaller - as
>small as 4 inches).

I think the military only requires 3 or 4 MOA from its M16A2s, so that is 
not out of line.  Standard issue M14s were not required to do any better.  
Whether those were mediocre rifles or mediocre ammo (I'll take your word for 
it that there were no mediocre shooters ;)), I've seen much better.

Were these U.S. rifles?  Just curious, as the army does not call the 62 
grain round SS109; here it is called M855.

>Using the M-21 without the scope, just NM iron sights, using
>M118 special ball, we all managed 3 to 4 inch groups.

That is not realy fair comparing an M21 with NM sights to issue M16s.  It is 
undeniable that the M14s have been entirely replaced by M16/AR-15s at the 
National Matches.  This is at ranges out to 600 yards.  The Marine team even 
switched, because they found it intolerable to keep getting whipped by the 
Army.  One shooting comparison between two different quality rifles is 
hardly an even playing field.

Did you guys see that a female teenage Marine won the national matches (with 
an M16) a few years ago?

>I'm not sure what I would ascribe the difference to, other
>than quality of weapon and quality of ammunition.

Ammunition maybe, and maybe poor quality assembly, but not the weapon 
system.

>The .223 Remington -
>is not seen - in benchrest circles.

The .223 is a fairly accurate round, on par with most cartridges.  The 308 
is theoretically more accurate.  It is certainly more resistant to the wind. 
  But as far as semi-auto platforms, there is nothing better than Stoner's 
design.  Put a 308 in an M16 platform, like the AR-10 or SR-25, and you get 
outstanding accuracy.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092132.DSF01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>  says
>Comparing police issue M16s (Vietnam era M16A1s or 
>carbines?) to a 700 Police DM is really 
>apples and oranges.
>

These were Montgomery County Police and Maryland State Police 
with heavily tricked-out M-16 variants (you know the type, 
looks like a Gauss rifle).  They were all firing match grade 
ammunition.  They did best at 100 yards, which is their 
engagement distance.  Past that...  Out at 800 yards, where 
the wind blows, you have to compensate more for the 5.56mm.

>
>I think most Marines can hit a torso sized target at 500 
>yards about 100% of the time.

Marines yes, Army infantry, no way.  And that assumes that 
your enemy is standing in the open.  Most experienced 
soldiers go into the prone.  Once you're in the prone, the 
bolt action in the hands of a sniper has the advantage, 
because you can hit grapefruit-sized targets very reliably at 
300 to 400 yards, and most of the time at 500.  Take those 
same Marines and try to have them hit the grapefruit at 500.  
There's probably a Distinguished Marksman in there, isn't 
there?

>  Certainly a match M16 can beat a match M14 at that range 
> absent extreme winds).
>

Part of the reason the M-16 does better is *over* a course of 
fire - fatigue due to recoil is an effect.  

>What mount are you using?  

The standard one that came with the weapon - round knob.  
There's a lot of grief to be had from removing it, but you 
can find a good one.  Then again - for purposes of real 
accuracy, I've never been able to get "detachable" mounts of 
any kind to repeat zero.


>scenario

That's why you shoot in order - RTO, machinegunner, anti-tank 
missile gunner, sergeant, LT.  But, like I said, spotting me 
in the first place is difficult.  But if all the police have 
is a set of mouseguns, then set up with a Sendero at 600 
yards.  Not one will ever return fire, unless there are more 
than four.

Go to the store and look at a Sendero.  It's not a custom 
weapon, but it is very, very good.  About the only thing it 
requires is a properly mounted high quality scope and having 
the bolt squared and lapped.  I've had two (and a 700P), and 
all of them were 1/2 MOA out of the box.  The remaining work 
was for my peace of mind.  My 700P was close to 1/4 MOA.

The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my 
rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these, 
and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get 
him without losing half the team or more."

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 15:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 14:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F166rhup7IpGwC6RZT20000d54e@hotmail.com>

Tod Glen:

>It depends on how well they are stabilized.  The trick is to make a
>projectile stable in air, but unstable in tissue.  As tissue is about 800
>times denser, this is generally not a problem.  As you are doubtlessly
>aware, all projectiles tend to yaw, and this tendency is exacerbated when
>transiting media.  The long, thin projectile tends to tumble and bend,
>creating large permanent wound tracks.  Also, a quick review of Mach's
>equation will show that retardation rates for these long projectiles are
>high, meaning that more energy is dumped into the target more quickly.

That all makes a lot of sense to me, but it just seems like I read something 
that said kind of the opposite.  The site where I thought I read that is 
down though, and my memory is hardly infallible - except in regards to the 
velocity of 5.56mm ball of course.  ;)

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:02:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:02:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F80Dll7fnp3eEHJtfob00001392@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon said:

>These were Montgomery County Police and Maryland State Police
>with heavily tricked-out M-16 variants (you know the type,
>looks like a Gauss rifle).  They were all firing match grade
>ammunition.  They did best at 100 yards, which is their
>engagement distance.  Past that...  Out at 800 yards, where
>the wind blows, you have to compensate more for the 5.56mm.

With tricke out M16s, these guys are crappy shots if they can not make a 
headshot at 600 yards.  True, your Sendero will be better, but the M16 
should still be able to do the job.

>Marines yes, Army infantry, no way.  And that assumes that
>your enemy is standing in the open.  Most experienced
>soldiers go into the prone.  Once you're in the prone, the
>bolt action in the hands of a sniper has the advantage,
>because you can hit grapefruit-sized targets very reliably at
>300 to 400 yards, and most of the time at 500.  Take those
>same Marines and try to have them hit the grapefruit at 500.
>There's probably a Distinguished Marksman in there, isn't
>there?

Again, no question that a 308 bolt gun will do better at longer ranges than 
an issue M16.  A tricked out AR-15 could be able to make headshots at that 
range too.  A 308 bolt gun from Wal-Mart would not.

>Part of the reason the M-16 does better is *over* a course of
>fire - fatigue due to recoil is an effect.

Sure.

> >What mount are you using?
>
>The standard one that came with the weapon - round knob.

Is that the Springfield mount?

>Then again - for purposes of real
>accuracy, I've never been able to get "detachable" mounts of
>any kind to repeat zero.

I have had outstanding results with mil-spec rails, but maybe our 
definitions of what is acceptable is different.

> >scenario
>
>That's why you shoot in order - RTO, machinegunner, anti-tank
>missile gunner, sergeant, LT.  But, like I said, spotting me
>in the first place is difficult.  But if all the police have
>is a set of mouseguns, then set up with a Sendero at 600
>yards.  Not one will ever return fire, unless there are more
>than four.

I would not be too sure.  People win national matches at 600 yards with 
M16s.  They can mount some pretty nice optics/night vision, etc. on their 
weapon, and the pros can make a headshot at that range.

Besides, in your sniper scenario, as a lover of peace and tranquility I'd 
simply avoid them.

>Go to the store and look at a Sendero.

I don't have to go to the store.  ;)

>It's not a custom
>weapon, but it is very, very good.  About the only thing it
>requires is a properly mounted high quality scope and having
>the bolt squared and lapped.  I've had two (and a 700P), and
>all of them were 1/2 MOA out of the box.  The remaining work
>was for my peace of mind.  My 700P was close to 1/4 MOA.

Which is not all that remarkable for rigs like that.  I actually like 
Winchesters and get similar results.  And don't you dare start a 
Winchester/Remington thing on this thread!

Anway, my point was that a stock AR-15 HBAR will get 1/2 MOA too.  1/4 MOA 
is doable with some upgrades.

I definately agree with you that wind effects 5.56 more than 308, but on the 
other hand you have to start making adjustments for wind for any caliber at 
the longer ranges you are talking about.

>The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my
>rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these,
>and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get
>him without losing half the team or more."

Those cops have seen one Stephen Segal movie too many.  ;)

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F80Dll7fnp3eEHJtfob00001392@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D8B7BA.3813B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 3:01 PM, Sam D at samdx@hotmail.com wrote:

>> The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my
>> rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these,
>> and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get
>> him without losing half the team or more."
> 
> Those cops have seen one Stephen Segal movie too many.  ;)

Reality.  The police evacuate the area.  Then they get their negotiator to
bore you to death.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204092239.DSH02057@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>Reality.  The police evacuate the area.  Then they get their 
>negotiator to bore you to death.
>--

The assets that police have: time, time, and more time.  And 
some more time.

That's why you keep seeing idiots in orange jumpsuits or 
black bodybags on CNN.  The police wait until you decide to 
put on the orange suit, or they wait until you get so tired 
that they rush you and put the black bag on you.

Which makes me wonder what happened in various Federal 
situations.  As long as no one is being killed, I would 
presume that you have all the time in the world.  Even if 
they've killed officers, you can still wait.

ObTrav: Idiot players trapped in their ship by the police.  
Locals set up a carnival row; onlookers begin to camp out.  
News media do unflattering background stories on the players 
and their families. Police start pinochle tournament.  
Players resort to eating their shoes.



________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20409.121152.9P1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <F3543TuylJc0xvlUQ9c0001684f@hotmail.com> <20409.121152.9P1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020410084316.A2115@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

[someone wrote:]
> > Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt.
>
> Sorry, not *possible*. Not even the third Imperium has *that* kind of
> firepower.

Not with nukes, no.  They are quite expensive per unit of energy.  And
certainly not on a whim.

The Third Imperium could actually build and transport about 10^17 N
worth of HEPlaR drives per year.  Thruster plates would be even
easier, but I'll assume HEPlaR.  A decade worth of HEPlaR production
gives you 10^18 N of thrust.  The cost of building the mining systems
and refineries for them to run on water would would be relatively
trivial in comparison.

You find a nice large cometary body, say 1000 km across, to mount them
on.  You build a shell around it.  You accelerate it for a further
decade at 0.0003g (initially), aimed at Terra.  By the time it gets
there, about 60% of the mass has been consumed and it's moving at
about 1500 km/s.  If my calculations are correct, that should deliver
enough energy to overcome Earth's gravitational self-binding.

In practice it wouldn't be that efficient, but it would certainly
create a new asteroid belt, and render what's left of the planet into
a recondensing ball of gas.  It would also noticeably alter Earth's
orbit, lengthening or shortening the year by about half a day or so.


> > the Ziro Sirka would have, could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it 
> > glowed.
> 
> Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
> Millions, hundreds of millions.

What scary numbers.

Ten million 100-megaton warheads costs about 1 TCr at Ziru Sirka tech
levels.  That's less than some *single* systems' GWP for just one
year.  Furthermore, the whole load could be carried in a few transport
ships.  The total cost (including transportation) works out about the
same as a couple of dreadnaughts, and they deliver enough energy to
raise the temperature of the entire surface of the planet to the point
where it does *literally* glow.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>

The esteemed sophonts Summer, Pitt, Robertson, Bond, Laning, Wildstar and
others I am no doubt forgetting to credit, wrote eloquently on starship
insurance, leading me to commit random observations on insurance and law in
Traveller.

Your premiums would be a function your risk pool, the size of your
deductible, and what riders you have on your policy.

What kinds of insurance do starships need?  Several spring to mind.
Starships carrying a mortgage will require comprehensive insurance which
would include the following:

Theft and Casualty - Fairly straightforward, this insurance compensates the
insured in the event the ship, or any portion thereof, is stolen or damaged.
Common exclusions (circumstances under which the insurance does not apply)
would probably include: Loss as a result of Acts of God or Nature; Loss as a
result of Acts of Warfare; Loss as a result of Acts of Terrorism; Loss as a
result of Natural Hazards to Navigation; Loss due to Malice, Fraud or Acts
of Deliberate Intent on the part of the Insured, Loss Incurred while
Violating Imperial or Regional Law (including, among many things, travel in
a Red Zone.

Available riders (additional coverage relating to specific circumstances
available for higher premiums) would probably include: Atmospheric Entry;
Gas Giant Refueling; Planetfall Outside Approved Starports; Stellar Flares;
Uncharted Hazards to Navigation; Utilization of Jump-Space, Travel to an
Amber Zone.

Payouts in the event of damage will be the cost of repair of the damage, or
replacement of the damaged part(s) minus the deductible.  Payouts in the
case of theft or total loss of the vessel will be either the current value
of the ship (the Blue Book value) or a pre-agreed value established in the
policy (the more expensive, but perhaps better choice for older vessels that
may not hold their value as well.)  In either case, the payout would, of
course, be minus the deductible.

Premium reductions would probably be available for unusually well trained or
certified key crewmembers such as Captain, pilot and astrogator.
Anti-hijack and port security programs, as well as security officers on
board might also get you a discount if such things are not required by law
already.

That's frequently how insurance companies get policy holders to toe the
line.  Not by filling the policy with onerous requirements (although they're
not above that,) but by lobbying the law-making and regulatory bodies to
pass legislation and regulations that enforce the behavior the insurance
companies desire.  It also has the added benefit that the government is now
inspecting and enforcing for the insurance companies.

Modern day example:  Seat belts.  I don't think (although I could be wrong,
I'm still wet behind the ears) that insurance policies in the USA ever
required passengers in insured vehicles to wear seat belts.  Seat belts,
when used, lower insurance payouts.  Now, largely as a result of insurance
lobbying, seat belts must, by law, be worn in Texas and nearly everywhere
else. (any states in the union that don't require seat belts?)

This already too long by far, and I haven't even got into hypothetical legal
cases regarding theft and casualty insurance in the TU, much less moved on
to other kinds of insurance.

More on insurance later, if there is sufficient interest.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:55:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:55:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020410085426.A2419@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> Anyway, off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to
> make this work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the
> square-root of the inertial suppression factor.

If you're directly altering the strength of the interaction, the
strength should drop off exactly in line with the mass reduction.  The
square-root factor was when altering the *charge*.

You should likewise reduce the strength of the strong and weak forces.


Now, just Planck's constant to deal with :)

If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
well.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 16:57:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr  9 15:57:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F793hRDT6Z3LstPGtPr00011ce3@hotmail.com>

So am I right in saying that these little gauss projectiles you all are 
talking about, the ones that do so much damage, are not fletchettes?  They 
use spin to stabilize in the air rather than little wings, right?

If so, that is where I got so horribly confused.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204062250.DMT01458@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.151435.2e5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a 
> miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no 
> visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).

A pulse laser capable of doing srious damage to a human *will* leave a
path of ionization thru the air. This will give both a visible beam
*and* a distinctive noise. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:06:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:06:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D4C08E.37887%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20409.151650.6b9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/6/02 2:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>
>> 
>> But, IMTU, a laser rifle makes - no sound at all - if it's a
>> miss that doesn't strike a nearby surface.  And there's no
>> visible beam (except in the 1.3 nm range for TL 10).
>> 
>
> What type of laser? What power range?  Are their any ionizing effects?
> Certainly the laser makes noise when it hits the target.  Steam explosions
> in tissue, the popping of superheated fat.
>
> And ever looked at a later with LI gear?  Super obvious.  Like having a big
> pointer going back to the firer.  And lasers are relatively easy to defeat,
> or at least attenuate.  A few mils of highly reflective material sewn into
> clothing, prismatic aerosols.  As mentioned in a previous post, lasers are
> not good penetrators.  The problem is with the nature of lasers themselves.
> The have to vaporize there way through materials.  But the vaporized
> material itself can act as a hindrance to the laser.

Which is why you use a pulse laser with a *short* pulse duration. The
target spot flashes into plasma at supersonic speeds and blasts a nice
hole. 

And reflective material won't help as much as people think. 99%
reflectivity is *hard* to achieve. And 1% of the pulse energy is still
nasty. 

> Also, water (and by analogy tissue) is a great thermal sink. 55 calories to
> raise 1 cc of water 1 degree centigrade, IIRC.

Yeah, but given that the pulse energy is in the kJ to MJ range, this
isn't as much of a problem as you may think.

Remember, *by definition* a laser weapon has to be able to deposit
damaging amounts of energy. 

Basicly, the only effect wavelength will have is on the penetration
depth. That is, how far the energy of the pulse pentrates before being
absorbed. 

Keep in mind that while the *energy* of the pulse might only be a few
kilojoules the *power* level will be in the megawatt to gigawatt range.
Pulses of 1 millisecond or *shorter* will be wanted, both to avoid
problems with target movement, but also because the shorter duration
tends to increase the "shock" effect due to increased rapidity of
energy deposition.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <20409.151650.6b9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018393991.5137.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Which is why you use a pulse laser with a *short* pulse duration. The
> target spot flashes into plasma at supersonic speeds and blasts a nice
> hole. 

And, since this isn't clear, it's probably better to use multiple pulses; if
the pulses are close enough together in time you can drill a hole.

> Basicly, the only effect wavelength will have is on the penetration
> depth. That is, how far the energy of the pulse pentrates before being
> absorbed. 

Well, it has a fairly significant effect on range.  Higher penetration also
allows higher energy per pulse, since heat is deposited efficiently at a
greater depth.
> 
> Keep in mind that while the *energy* of the pulse might only be a few
> kilojoules the *power* level will be in the megawatt to gigawatt range.
> Pulses of 1 millisecond or *shorter* will be wanted, both to avoid
> problems with target movement, but also because the shorter duration
> tends to increase the "shock" effect due to increased rapidity of
> energy deposition.

Think microsecond.  You want to create a supersonic shock effect.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:29:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:29:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>

Used to be Scripting Help...

 Well IMTU, originally there wasn't any computer platforms. Simply because
as the Ref I wasn't at the time into computers at all. The subject was
never a point.

 However now I find that there were/are hundreds of computer platcorms in
the world. not counting the versions of several of them. What would this
mean to the TU?

 As some have written about the great beast Gates. I thought that a user
of a minority system could have a few points to add. I mean just because a
new system is forced upon the public. Doesn't magically make all computer
users have it on their desks.

 Taking a clue about the difficulties in file work betwen a windrone any
version and the Commodore. I have been making notes on a run for my
upcoming rebirth Traveller game. Team finds a "disk" that contains the
secret information. but it is not compatible with what they have on the
ship. Now how do they read the information with out destroying the
contents. A fact that I have heard about in older windrone systems being
copied to newer systems. But point is that Idon'T think in Traveller there
is a mega corp making 100% of the computers and all the Os for the
software. I would propose that there are many smaller companies making
software and computers using their own systems. As in the 80s in this
world. Increase that to the tech levels of the worlds, non impperial
worlds with their own standards and there is a situation. One that I am
not certain the Computer skill as written covers in CT.

 As a simple example to this, say I write a file in geoWrite/Whels on my
Commodore. Add to that a GeoPaint file of a map. Send this to someone that
uses a windrone machine. Say this is done online. Any one tapping the line
would collect the file. but unless they have the same equipment as I do,
then it is a bummer to read. BTW: that also includes the fonts. As the
GeoWrite/Whels uses IIRC VLIR a form of image rather than ascii or pet
ascii codes for the charcters. The map would be a lage image file.

 Now I do know that there is a file called "gwimport.exe" created by
maurice Randall that will allow a windrone user to read the base ascii of
the GeoWrite file. It is a Pd one and i have a copy on my BBS. There is
also one for the Amiga called "gwimport.lha" That also is on my BBS. Yet
the file is not one that the majority of useers would have in their tools
disks. Oh FWIW the C= has tools to read the text files in IIRC ascii from
the 1.44 formatted disks. This tool is a german one called "GeoDos".

 As you can see the Ref could install the ability for tools/files to be
about for the higher level computer skilled character to open files from
other platforms.

 Naturally I suspect that the more computer savy members will have more to
say on the subject of cross platform work. Including older editions of
systems. This is just to stimulate the concept of computers not being
unified in the Thrid imperium.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F210WagewMS59IvqvIy000169c3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4237A.16506.A62A44@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 6:18, Sam D wrote:

> But as to your basic point that an M1 gets better accuracy than an
> M16A1, as far as issue weapons I would not be too sure.  The M16's
> action probably gives better accuracy.

My experience with the M16A1 and the M1 (though only one sample of it), 
both unmodified from issue, both using military ball, was that their 
accuracy at 100m was similar, though the M1's better trigger made it 
easier to get the best from the rifle consistently. At 300m the M1 
grouped better in all but very still conditions because the heavier 
bullet wasn't pushed around as much by the wind.

> Also, the M1's wood stock is not so great when you do a lot of firing.

I'd be more concerned about the relatively light barrel, actually.

> The M16 has much less recoil.

Now this you do notice.

> On the other hand, the M16 is lousy if you are using a
> sling (because the sling connects to the front sight which is
> connected directly to the barrel) and it has a very thin barrel.

It's lousy if you use the fore-end, full-stop.

> I bet the M16A2, with the heavy barrel, does better than the Garand
> though. 

The barrel's not thick all the way, though.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CB4251C.2440.AC8C18@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 10:44, Megan Robertson wrote:

> Insurance companies have been in the business of ripping clients off
> since they began, and I doubt they'll change... 
> 
> However, they do often state preconditions, as well as having
> 'weasel' clauses in the contract. When I took out household
> insurance a while back I had to upgrade the front door lock and they
> wanted me to get a burglar alarm until I told them I kept a Doberman
> pinscher :-) 

When I took out insuarance they wanted to put a note to the effect that 
I lived in a high burglary area, and had no alarm. They said that if I 
installed one they'd have to come round and check that this was so. 
They declined to come and check out the quality of the two bull 
terriers, though (and still put the rider in, bastards).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 17:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 16:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:35:30PM -0400
Message-ID: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 14:56, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Yup.  Shakespeare's copy rights long ago expired--yet there's still a
> market in them.  And there's still a market in plays, despite the fact
> that, AFAICT, no-one's managed to do any better since.

Shakepear didn't have any copyrights on his work - they didn't exist at 
that time. 

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F164o8C7wyfwjHNuQuN000048cd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4295B.22483.BD2072@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 20:59, Sam D wrote:

> Of course it depends on what you are doing.  Would you arm an entire
> army with Senderos?  It is not exactly the ideal close-quarters
> weapon.  Sure, the bolt gun would be superior to an M16 in the
> specific scenario you mention, but that does not necessarily make it
> superior in all situations.  The M16A2 is a classic Jack of all
> Trades weapon.  Capable of aimed fire out to 500 yards, most
> effective at under 200 yards, which (they say) is where most
> infantry combat takes place.  While the M16 may have rang limits, it
> is supported by a variety of longer range weapons.  I think the
> army, when adopting the M16, correctly decided that there is a real
> limit to how far the average infantryman can shoot effectively, and
> adopted a weapon that is optimized for that range.  The longer range
> stuff is the responsiblity of the supporting weapons (which you left
> out of your sniper scenario). 

For what you're talking about the M16 is more accurate than you need, 
and there are better weapons out there for this sort of work - like the 
AK-47 (though for westerners you'd want to lengthen the stock).
 
> On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off
> some M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and
> issuing them at the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max
> 500 yards?) and sniper (800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the
> guy with the M14 the "designated marksman" or something like that. 
> The guy who wrote the article I read did not like the idea, because
> of the the difficulties associated with the accurized M14s as stated
> above and standardization issues, but from what I understand these
> were deployed to Afghanistan so we should be getting reports soon. 

I'm not convinced that these are that big and issue. Every time you 
deploy the weapon should be sighted in first, and I never noticed any 
issues with bedding in my M1. Besides unless there are serious problems 
with this the better trigger will, IME, work in the M1's favour. As the 
M14 (AFAIK) didn't have any significant changes in it trigger (aside 
from the full-auto option) it should have a similar advantage, 
especially over an issue M16A2's trigger.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204092104.DSD06042@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB42A0A.17821.BFCECC@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 17:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Leonard Erickson asks
> >
> >"the rifle"?
> 
> Remington 700 Police DM, in .308. (Comes with HS Precision 
> stock with integral aluminum bedding block). Action 
> reworked/firing pin replaced with titanium pin, barrel 
> replaced with heavy contour Douglas Premium Match barrel, 
> Timney trigger, Leupold Mark V M3 10x scope with mil-dot 
> reticle, NEAR one-piece scope base optimized to get the most 
> elevation adjustement out of the scope, Vortex flash 
> suppressor, bipod, Simrad KN-250 GEN III night vision with 
> adapter to fit over Leupold Mark V.
> 
> Some were frightened just by seeing it, some by going to the 
> range with me and *seeing* it.

Sounds cool. What sort of groups do you get with it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:04:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:04:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <B8D8A503.38070%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB16B53.7312.2CDCD7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB42A0A.7930.BFCE18@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 14:02, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/7/02 3:05 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Some anthropometric tables I've got say that the average chest depth
> > for British males aged 19-65 is 250mm (5%ile 215mm, 95%ile 285mm), and
> > for females also 250mm (5%ile 210mm, 95%ile 305mm), though for females
> > it's actually the bust depth and thus not actually the same thing.
> > Unfortunately they're photocopies I made years ago and I don't know how
> > old the data is.
> 
> I just looked at my spreadsheets and see that the thickness I used was
> actually 25 cm.

Cool. You had me thinking that everyone in the US was barrel chested 
for a moment there. :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204072135.DON00704@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20409.161536.4M2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> laning asks
>>
>>Oh, when I was posting a little while ago on this thread, 
>>mentioning the ability of various Traveller races to cope 
>>with recoil, I should have also mentioned battle dress.  
>>That _should_ let one handle a whole lot more recoil.  But 
>>how much?
>
> Good question.  I've always wondered about this, because if 
> you could carry large weapons and handle high recoil, you 
> would have a semi-auto rifle that fired high velocity 20mm 
> (not low velocity 20mm like the OICW).
>
> 20mm californium rounds, that is.  The one part of Striker I 
> really liked.  Hit someone in battledress and watch the 
> little mushroom cloud.

Consider a "heavy weapon" for a K'kree. Something that "braces" against
the breastbone. I daresay that 20mm wouldn't be out of the question.

I recall some SF race that was built along the lines of the larger
terran ursines (Kodiaks, Polar bears, that sort of thing). A rifle for
one of *them* was a light anti-tank weapon for a human. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arm Rig?
In-Reply-To: <20020409220409.8A29027AB5@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020409165807.00a496c0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 11:24:10 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> > To some extent, this is probably because I was never acclimated to them as
> > a youth, through hunting or whatever.  But I am similarly nervous around
> > anything that can cause death or serious injury, even/especially by
> > accident or negligence.
>
>Knives, chainsaw, cars, hammers, baseball bats....

If any of those appear likely to be used in anger or recklessly, yes.

> > There's also the "with great power comes great responsibility" angle.
> > I do not want or need the power to maim or kill another human being,
> > or the responsibility that necessarily comes with it.
>
>I take it that you don't drive then.
>
>Seriously. a car is a deadlier weapon than most guns.

I suspect you meant this rhetorically, but actually, I don't.  (My family 
was not in a position, when I was at the appropriate age, to afford the 
insurance premiums for a young driver.)  As I live in a bicycle-friendly 
city, I've never really bothered to learn since then.

As a bike rider, I'm quite aware of the potential deadliness of a ton-plus 
of metal moving at 30+ miles per hour.  Perhaps moreso than many drivers.

> > It's a lot harder to kill someone with a jacket.  Definitely not
> > impossible, but jackets are not primarily designed to apply deadly
> > force.  A firearm is, and I grant them all the respect they are due
> > as a result.
>
>Knives are primarily designed to cut flesh. It's all in how you use a
>tool.

But to claim that all tools are equally fearsome (or inoffensive), 
depending solely on the motive of the operator, is a facile 
generalization.  I am much more likely to be cautious/respectful/afraid of 
a loaded firearm than of a manila folder, if only because the potential 
injury (death or maiming vs. paper cut) is so obviously unequal.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV44bffoJpHq2XMx250001843b@hotmail.com>

Starship Insurance - Theft and Casualty - Freight and Cargo

Freight - Anything of value aboard a ship which belongs to another and is
being transported to a specific destination for a fee.  Insurance here is a
fairly simple matter, the shipper determines if they want to purchase
freight insurance.

Perhaps one or more crewmembers are qualified to write freight insurance
policies using the ships theft and casualty insurer as a kind of
super-carrier.  In addition or instead, the shipper could take out a freight
policy from a third party local insurer.  The premium would be a one time up
front payment for each shipment, and the payout would be an agreed upon
amount.  The ration of premium to payout would depend on risk conditions for
the trip (piracy, hazards, distance of travel.)

Cargo - Anything of value aboard a ship that belongs to the insured that is
not part of ships inventory.  It would be unlikely that cargo would be
covered under the ships theft and casualty policy.  In case of a claim of
theft, it would be too difficult to determine what the cargo really was, and
a problem to determine its value.  As the insurance company, do you payout
the value of the cargo at its loading point? Its value at its ultimate
destination? Its value at the nearest inhabited worls at the time of loss?
Its value at the insurance comapnies regional office at the subsector
capital?  Its value at insurance company headquarters on Capitol?  Insurance
company answer:  whichever is the lowest value. <g>

For these reasons I think you would see cargo insured in the same way as
freight.

Starports would tend to collect insurance agency offices in the same way
jails collect bail bond offices.  Many, especially on smaller worlds, would
probably be independent agents writing policies from a number of companies,
using whichever can best suit their customers needs.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:30:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:30:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
References: <20020409220408.0118927AB3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002101c1e027$4452ada0$3cb18b90@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> > The three bloodiest wars in history were:  World War II, the Taiping
> > Rebellion, and World War I (in that order).  All had body counts of ten
> > million or more - far greater than the examples given above.
>
> The camps didn't just kill Jews. Add in the homosexuals and gypsies and
> you get more than 10 million.

And all the others that found their way into them...

But even so, this, at most, might put the number higher than WWI.  The
Taiping Rebellion and WWII are still way ahead.

It also doesn't help that the camps were intimately associated with WWII,
and not really a distinct phenomenon.

You seem to be fairly consistently a couple of days behind on the list, BTW.
Are you just behind, or is it something to do with the exotic 19th Century
computers you use?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:31:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:31:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name things
References: <20020409184310.F206027A50@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002201c1e027$47ec4f20$3cb18b90@computer>

> From: "Hughes, Michael"
> Star Wars Name =
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born.

It gives some ugly consonant clusters.  Positively Zhodani in some cases.

I'm kind of getting used to the "br" in "Alabr", though.  It's obviously
pronounced like a shivering sound.  This isn't any more difficult than the
Chinese/Vietnamese "ng".  I might add a bit of emphasis to the "la", as it
makes pronouncing the "br" a bit easier.  So:  Al-la-br, rather than
Al-e-<mumble>.

I was just thinking what Doug Berry's first name would be:  Doube.  <Sings:
"Doube-doube-dou" with a Penguin accent.>  Yeah, that works.

Loren's would be a little sad:  Lorwi.  It sounds like he has a lisp.

Alabr Sucha
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ACQ and GT
Message-ID: <3CB4366A.11648.F02634@localhost>

A while back someone (was it you Doug) said they were using ACQ with 
GT. It's occurred to me to try this out too, and I was wondering how 
you dealt with the rule for spending AP for bonuses to skills, 
especially the limit for aiming (no more than 3xskill level). The 
obvious limit for this last would be the lower of the character's skill 
(in GT terms) or weapon Acc, but I was wondering how others dealt with 
this.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 19:09:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 18:09:10 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <B8D51C82.37945%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20409.174638.4l4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/6/02 8:42 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> The only factor I can see limiting the size of the railgun is power.  The
>>> actual weapon doesn't have to be big at all.  I'm considering trying to
>>> build one, and will keep the list posted if it goes anywhere.
>> 
>> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
>> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.
>
> ??
>
> Why permanent magnets.  A rialgun doesn't use magnetic fields in the manner
> of a coil gun.  We just have two parallel rails and the armature
> (projectile).  We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
> in the loop and acting on the armature.

There's a vertical magnetic field involved. Without it, you aren't
going to get nearly as high a velocity. 

Vertical magnetic field + sideways current flow -> forward motion. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 19:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr  9 18:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] handy device
In-Reply-To: <20409.174638.4l4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D8E360.381D0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 6:46 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>>> For weapon that doesn't require a heavy vehicle, you'll need permanent
>>> magnets to generate the field. And those are kinda heavy.
>> 
>> ??
>> 
>> Why permanent magnets.  A rialgun doesn't use magnetic fields in the manner
>> of a coil gun.  We just have two parallel rails and the armature
>> (projectile).  We are really only interested in the Lorenz force generated
>> in the loop and acting on the armature.
> 
> There's a vertical magnetic field involved. Without it, you aren't
> going to get nearly as high a velocity.
> 
> Vertical magnetic field + sideways current flow -> forward motion.

I grabbed this of railgun.org:

Why are there no magnets above and below the rails to supplement the induced
field? - 
The induced field in a reasonable railgun is of a field strength on the
order of ~1 Tesla or more. A one Tesla electromagnet would be the size of a
Volkswagon and would probably need to be superconducting. [snip]
Additionally, the power for these extra magnets would either require more
capacitors or would be placed in series with the rails, adding unwanted
resistance and inductance to the circuit.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020410085426.A2419@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 10, 2002 08:54:26 AM
Message-ID: <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > Anyway, off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to
> > make this work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the
> > square-root of the inertial suppression factor.
> 
> If you're directly altering the strength of the interaction, the
> strength should drop off exactly in line with the mass reduction.  The
> square-root factor was when altering the *charge*.

Gah! I really should have taken that high school physics class.
 
> You should likewise reduce the strength of the strong and weak forces.

Okay... so I guess we need to suppose that all these forces get dropped
by the same factor.

> Now, just Planck's constant to deal with :)

Okay... I'm totally clueless, but:
E=hv, where h = planck's constant and v = frequency
(note: i have no idea what i'm taking about)
in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is that
if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we would prefer
that neither of them drop.

> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
> well.

Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
energy level of an electron in an atom?

I've heard that the atomic nucleus is held together by the interplay
between the strong and weak forces, the strong force keeping the
positively charged protons together while the weak force tries to
rip them apart. I suppose that since this idea of taming the quantum
foam should reduce both forces equally, the stability of the
nucleus would be uneffected (the effects of the strong & weak force
reductions should cancel out).

However, I'm not sure how to handle the problem of electrons, which
you mention above. But I'll try to tackle it anyway, so what follows
it totally off the cuff. I'm guessing that the electromagnetic force
keeps electrons attracted to the positively charged atomic nucleus
and repulsed by each other, hence accounting for their movements
(of course, this probably falls apart at some level, but bear with
me). Well, I'm just guessing here, but if their movements are determined
by the repulsive & attractive effects of the same force (electromagnetic),
then reducing that force should have no net effect, as reduction in
repulsion will be perfectly offset by the reduction in attraction.
In short, and I'm no physics major, so correct me if I'm wrong,
once again what I would expect is that these changes cancel out,
resulting in there being no need to change Planck's constant.

Am I totally wrong here? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17936@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Hey lads,

I am offering Mikey Trav (modified MT) up for re-assessment by my gaming
group and was wondering if some nice kind TMLers would test the Traveller
Generation component for me. 

Essentially it is a combo of Mega Trav and Chaosium generation mechanics
(before it was D20ed). It looks a little foreboding at first but the core
rules are only 10 pages long. 

Any comments/suggestions gratefully received. Ludowick, if you're still
TMLing I'd love it if you could have a look as well. Ditto Hyphen. 

If you are interested please contact me off list. 


PBEM:

I am thinking about running a PBEM D&D game for a friend. Does anyone know
of a How To website out there for running PBEM RPG sessions?

Thanks in advance, 

Mikey



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:54:19AM +1200
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net> <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:54:19AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Shakepear didn't have any copyrights on his work - they didn't exist at 
> that time. 

That was indeed part of my point...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
               --Socrates, c.  5th century BC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:24:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:24:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F217LltyKF5Q6JVW8s20001d6e3@hotmail.com>

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

In a flight on Whipsnadian hyperbole, I typed "... the 'brutally pragmatic' 
Vilani should have nuked Terra into Sol's newest planetoid belt."

     "Sorry, not *possible*. Not even the third Imperium has *that* kind of 
firepower."


Mr. Erickson,

     Yes, as your other posts illustrated, a planet is a VERY BIG place!  
Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the 
conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.

In another bout of hyperbole, I posted, "... the Ziro Sirka would have, 
could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it glowed."

     "Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
Millions, hundreds of millions."

     But of course.  Would you care to hazard a guess just what sort of 
firepower it would have taken for the ZS to remove Terra as a threat?  How 
many warheads, kinetic strikes, spinal mount hits, and plain old iron bombs 
would it have taken "de-industrialize" Terra?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:26:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:26:46 2002
Subject: [TML] ACQ and GT
In-Reply-To: <3CB4366A.11648.F02634@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409191152.009ffe70@mindspring.com>

At 12:56 PM 4/10/02 +1200, you wrote:
>A while back someone (was it you Doug) said they were using ACQ with
>GT. It's occurred to me to try this out too, and I was wondering how
>you dealt with the rule for spending AP for bonuses to skills,
>especially the limit for aiming (no more than 3xskill level). The
>obvious limit for this last would be the lower of the character's skill
>(in GT terms) or weapon Acc, but I was wondering how others dealt with
>this.

Wasn't me.. and I can't remember who did it.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prior careers
Message-ID: <200204100230.DSP00729@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
>Sounds cool. What sort of groups do you get with it?
>

1/4 MOA.  But I have to do my work.  This is also where I 
stopped shooting from a bench, and did all of my work in the 
prone using either sling or bipod.  Laying on the ground is 
where this sort of rifle would be used, so I shot from the 
ground.

I get an acceptable score on the Rifle Ten, which is probably 
a more practical test of rifle skills, but you could probably 
shoot the same with an iron-sighted M1 Garand or even an M-
16.  Most practical rifle tests do not involve long range 
shooting, and I view most "long range" marksmanship courses 
of fire as too artificial to really measure much.  Aside from 
that, you can "practice" the test itself.

Maybe what we should all do is practice for the Kenyathalon, 
which is probably a fine test of field skill with a rifle.

I gave the rifle to the local SWAT team.  I think they're 
going to build a memorial to me.  Not the Simrad, however. 
But, it's been over a year now, and I'm reworking another 
Remington, but this time in .300 Win Mag.  In this case, 
however, I plan on sticking to 6x scopes, and shoot from my 
hind legs.

Why give it away?  Well, if you're getting a divorce, it pays 
not to have any firearms around, even if you've never made a 
threat.  The opposing lawyer is ready to make something out 
of it, even the mere presence, especially here in the 
People's Republic of Maryland.

________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [Fwd: FYI: Claim for Dentus/Regina]
Message-ID: <3CB3A651.5FE32F71@premier.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Here's a Landgrab claim from a JTAS subscriber:



-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.
--------------1C1D34570AB70063DD2A1374
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Return-Path: <itsjustabunny@netzero.net>
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Message-ID: <001801c1e038$d60189e0$7856f4d1@003905747>
From: "Videll" <itsjustabunny@netzero.net>
To: <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: FYI: Claim for Dentus/Regina
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 22:38:41 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

FYI. Thanks, Greg.

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Videll=20
To: landgrab@downport.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 10:20 PM
Subject: Claim for Dentus/Regina


I'd like to claim Dentus/Regina as part of the 'land grab' and ask to =
have the information I develop be hosted at Downport.com. Please let me =
know what additional information you require. Thanks a lot, Greg Videll.

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1E017.4C59AEA0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>FYI. Thanks, Greg.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:itsjustabunny@netzero.net"=20
title=3Ditsjustabunny@netzero.net>Videll</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:landgrab@downport.com"=20
title=3Dlandgrab@downport.com>landgrab@downport.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 09, 2002 10:20 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Claim for Dentus/Regina</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'd like to claim Dentus/Regina as part =
of the=20
'land grab' and ask to have the information I develop be hosted at =
Downport.com.=20
Please let me know what additional information you require. Thanks a =
lot, Greg=20
Videll.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C1E017.4C59AEA0--



--------------1C1D34570AB70063DD2A1374--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 20:44:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 19:44:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20409.114950.6a1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405185609.0288ba30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409223004.02132f28@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:49 PM 4/9/2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>You are forgetting that with nuclear dampers, you can clean up the
>radioactive contamination *easily*. and unless truly amazing numbers of
>weapons are used, the actual *blast* damage will easily disappear on
>something as big as a planet.

This is a good point.  In fact, it's quite possible that the Imperial Corps 
of Engineers (or whatever the Traveller TL-15 equivalent of the present-day 
Army Corps of Engineers) does civil engineering and terraforming with 
nuclear weapons and meson artillery.  A starship armed with a large meson 
gun and a variety of nuclear missiles in bays, and supported by 
decontamination ships equipped with powerful nuclear dampers could - for 
example - clear and level an area of solid rock for a starport or carve out 
a deep water harbor on a coastline in a matter of hours, or dig a sea-level 
canal across Central America in a matter of days (and most of these times 
would be for detail work and decontamination).

>Which reminds me. Some day I need to sit down and try to figure out what 
>would be required to produce a "burned off" world such as appears in some 
>of Norton's books.

While I'm not familiar with Norton's "burned off" worlds (I don't tend to 
read Norton), the easiest way to completely clobber a planet with Traveller 
technology is to drop a few big rocks on it.  With Traveller maneuver 
drives, it should be relatively easy to nudge a number of asteroids in the 
100,000dton or bigger class into an intercept trajectory with a planet, and 
that should be all that's needed.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Maghiz backstory summary
In-Reply-To: <000501c1df81$7b919c00$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20409.193923.3g6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>      "While I do agree that the Star Trigger would be tricky to deploy, I
>> don't see it being quite as vulnerable as you make it out.  I think the
>> trick is to get into the correct positions, not to then hold it."
>>
>>      Yes, seeding the star with enough tungsten and aiming correctly will
>> take time.  Perhaps the Darrians use multiple probes to increase their
>> chances?
>
> That is a pretty reasonable idea.  I figure they would be jumping in with
> a fleet, not just a squadron.  They probably have a couple of "probe" ships
> and multiple ships that can deliver the meson trigger.
>
> Plus, I also figure they would be dependent on relative surprise.  If they
> face a coordinated defense that is expecting them, they are probably best
> advised to try a different system in a week or so.

Why? 

They can jump in *anywhere* in the system that's outside the *stellar*
100D limit.

Say the two "beam" ships jump in roughly 120 degrees "ahead" and
"behind" the mainworld in it's orbit. And the "probe" ship jumps in
somewhere well to sunward of the mainworld.

Launch the probe, Fire the beams after it reaches the star. Jump out
after a few hours. 

Short of sheer luck, the system defense forces won't get within light
*minutes* of any of the Darrian ships.

That's what makes it such a scary weapon. You have to defend the entire
*system*, not just the planets. And you *can't*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:28 PM 4/9/2002, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
>Team finds a "disk" that contains the secret information. but it is not 
>compatible with what they have on the ship. Now how do they read the 
>information with out destroying the contents.

Good scenario hook.

IMTU, there are Imperial standards for data storage and media, mainly 
promulgated by the Scout Service.  This is not a standard in the sense that 
all equipment is required by law to support it, but rather a de-facto 
standard in the sense that the IISS X-boat system uses a specific set of 
formats to transfer messages.

It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the 
Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of 
pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding 
and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of 
languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate, 
lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications 
protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of 
getting messages into and out of the system.

Couple this with standards (IMTU published by the Travelers' Aid Society) 
for ship-to-ship and ship-to-planet communications (again via text, image, 
audio, video, and holo) and exchange of navigational data of various types, 
and you have a fairly robust infrastructure for communicating - should you 
desire to do so.

The net result should be similar to the modern Internet - any computer 
manufacturer who hopes to have any significant market share at all ensures 
that their equipment can read and write the standard media and formats, and 
can speak the standard protocols.  This doesn't prevent the manufacturers 
from building machines that also support proprietary encoding and 
formats.  However, if you're stuck with a data chip in one of those 
formats, your best bet is to try to find the machine that wrote it, and 
copy the data to a standard format.

In general, things Just Work, unless I (as referee) have a plot reason that 
they don't.  When they don't, When things do Just Work, no Computer skill 
is needed to read a file off of a data cartridge, or send an email message 
via X-boat.  Computer skill covers the ability to figure out what is wrong 
when things don't Just Work, and either write a program to fix the problem 
(or find a tool or other work around to the problem).  I would tend to say 
things like "you've got an Imperial standard data chip here, and on it is 
..." or "This data cartridge is proprietary to a LSP Model 11MP system - 
you need to find one of those to read what's on it.".


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:21:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:21:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:28 PM 4/9/2002, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
>Team finds a "disk" that contains the secret information. but it is not 
>compatible with what they have on the ship. Now how do they read the 
>information with out destroying the contents.

Good scenario hook.

IMTU, there are Imperial standards for data storage and media, mainly 
promulgated by the Scout Service.  This is not a standard in the sense that 
all equipment is required by law to support it, but rather a de-facto 
standard in the sense that the IISS X-boat system uses a specific set of 
formats to transfer messages.

It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the 
Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of 
pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding 
and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of 
languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate, 
lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications 
protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of 
getting messages into and out of the system.

Couple this with standards (IMTU published by the Travelers' Aid Society) 
for ship-to-ship and ship-to-planet communications (again via text, image, 
audio, video, and holo) and exchange of navigational data of various types, 
and you have a fairly robust infrastructure for communicating - should you 
desire to do so.

The net result should be similar to the modern Internet - any computer 
manufacturer who hopes to have any significant market share at all ensures 
that their equipment can read and write the standard media and formats, and 
can speak the standard protocols.  This doesn't prevent the manufacturers 
from building machines that also support proprietary encoding and 
formats.  However, if you're stuck with a data chip in one of those 
formats, your best bet is to try to find the machine that wrote it, and 
copy the data to a standard format.

In general, things Just Work, unless I (as referee) have a plot reason that 
they don't.  When they don't, When things do Just Work, no Computer skill 
is needed to read a file off of a data cartridge, or send an email message 
via X-boat.  Computer skill covers the ability to figure out what is wrong 
when things don't Just Work, and either write a program to fix the problem 
(or find a tool or other work around to the problem).  I would tend to say 
things like "you've got an Imperial standard data chip here, and on it is 
..." or "This data cartridge is proprietary to a LSP Model 11MP system - 
you need to find one of those to read what's on it.".


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 21:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr  9 20:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <14d.c0033de.29e50df4@aol.com>

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> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
>for first name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
>town where you were born. 
>

   Okay, I'm game. Let's see...

   Why yumpin' yimminy, looks like I'm Kenmu Ersan :)

  -Ken-


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
<BR>&gt;for first name
<BR>&gt; 
<BR>&gt; First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
<BR>&gt;town where you were born. 
<BR>&gt;
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Okay, I'm game. Let's see...
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Why yumpin' yimminy, looks like I'm Kenmu Ersan :)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_14d.c0033de.29e50df4_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 22:10:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Tue Apr  9 21:10:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>

> Star Wars Name =
>
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born.

Hmm..  Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
Using your equation, I'd be:  Shasr Baden

But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

Which for me yields:  Anemet Slabar
I dunno, they're both kinda cool.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Your lack of Pants disturbs me
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 22:19:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr  9 21:19:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <20020410.001437.-391371.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Star Wars Name =
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first 
> name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town 
> where you were born. 

Perho Yaneu?

(yuck!)


Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 22:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr  9 21:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEBCHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8d974f770c0@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:08 PM +1200 4/9/02, Frank Pitt wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote :
>>  While I haven't followed the thread far enough to
>>  follow all the  issues, I think there is a point
>>  to be made here.  One can't just assume insurance
>>  company will force any security measure you can
>>  think of.  Putting such demands on customers will be
>>  unpopular and, unless the savings in costs is
>>  _significant_, there  won't be enough
>>  of a change in premiums to compensate.
>
>The insurance comany won't change it's premiums.
>
>There will just be a clause in the contract, similar to the one
>that exists with most vehicle insurance now, that if your vehicle
>was not warranted at the time of the accident, or it was being
>driven by an unlicensed driver, they won't pay out.
>
>They won't even bother inspecting (or telling you about it) until
>_after_ you make the claim. Then they will ask you for your
>warrant and masters ticket, and if you can't produce them they
>will refuse to pay out.


But we are talking about security measure that are intrusive enough 
that the are a hassle to the day to day operation of a ship.  Some 
people are going to know about them.  Unless they are important 
enough to make a _significant_ change in costs, another company will 
be able to draw at least some customers away buy not having such 
intrusive requirements.

>The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
>required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
>may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
>starport will do it (for important safety and financial reasons,
>would you want an unwarranted vehicle approaching an extremely
>expensve space station?), there won't be any real choice except
>for the captains to take the risk of not doing it and not go to
>the better starports

The presumption is that every insurance company will have such 
requirements.  That requires that you show that such requirements 
make a significant difference in insurance costs.  Otherwise 
insurance companies have no reason to push unpopular requirements.

However, if you can show that such requirements are needed to keep 
theft down to a reasonable level, then you don't need to invoke 
insurance companies requiring it.

In the end, invoking insurance companies is not a way of justifying 
regulations that don't have other basis.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:01:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:01:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409141022.A18068@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net>
 <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410003144.027e33e0@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:10 PM 4/9/02 -0600, you wrote:
>But that doesn't matter.  Free software is not about sticking it to
>Bill Gates; it's about free software.  Gaming is not about sticking to
>to gaming companies (they're generally good people); it's about
>gaming.

Okay.  But my original point that you were responding to was that there are 
unintended consequences regardless of original motives.  I want to make 
sure people who may not be aware of those consequences are informed.

> > I don't know if your "But that is...your problem" remark was
> > intended to sound quite as callous as it came across to me in print,
> > but that's just me, and as you say that's my problem.
>
>I didn't mean it to sound callous, more as a statement of fact.

Okay.  From reading your various emails, I am quite sure you're a nice 
person.  I guess it still sounds a bit callous to me, although it is 
motivated from a concern for the general welfare of all humans everywhere, 
which is certainly not callous.  It is also clear you've spent more than a 
casual amount of time in life pondering such things and you're determined 
not to be a cruel person or any such thing.  I respect you, or anyone else 
who takes a similar position, for taking that position.

I just don't want the script kiddie types piling on the bandwagon.  Or the 
hordes of people who do something because "it's cool".

Respectable Middle-Aged Lady:  "Young man, what are you rebelling against?"
Brando's character:  "Whattaya got?"

But again, people we know (even if only through this mailing list) will be 
directly hurt by the success of competing products.  And the difference is 
those people do this for a living and the competing product at issue would 
be done for fun as a hobby by people with deeper pockets.  Which side of 
that choice is taken by Socrates or Aristotle is only of intellectual 
interest to me.  I just ask myself if that's the result I want.


>Not that I'd directly compete with any of the above.  I write
>software, not supplements.  And yes, my hope is for my GPLed
>Traveller-compatible software to enable a lot of other programmers to
>write more Traveller-compatible software.  And it doesn't bother me
>that this will make it more difficult for others to profit from
>proprietary Traveller-compatible software.  Why should it, any more
>than it bothers Stephen King that he's made it more difficult for
>other to profit from horror novels?

Huh?  I was unaware of your efforts in this area, and of travlib.  Will 
wield the legendary Sword of Google and get to work on that once email is 
caught up, the cats are fed, and I've had a night's sleep.  Please feel 
free to beat me repeatedly around the head and shoulder area with a 
badminton racquet until I follow up on that if it slips.  :->

Why should it bother Stephen King?  Because he should have an ounce of 
sympathy for all the other people out there who are his sisters and 
brothers in spirit: they are compelled to write and be read by others.  Why 
should he have an ounce of sympathy for anyone, especially strangers?  No 
special reason.  It isn't the law, I don't think he will go to heaven or 
hell based on that or anything.  I just think he should.

Why should it bother you?  That's different.  You aren't personally 
dominating an industry so much that other people are being squeezed 
out.  It shouldn't bother you in the least.

I'm not trying to quash all self publishers, hobby publishers, or 
open-source creation of anything.  I'm not trying to call it unethical.  My 
message is that there will be unintended consequences that are undoable if 
open source RPG design really takes off.  And you can't go back home 
again.  People should go ahead and make their own decisions.  Adult, 
responsible, informed decisions.

I'd love to see open source game design of different kinds of games become 
a healthy and thriving activity.  I'd also love to see the people who do 
good work, but can only do so when they are able to devote full time 
attention to it, be healthy and thriving.  There is the forest.  Somewhere 
on its other side is a happy meadow where both things are happening.  There 
are many paths through the forest, and many of those paths go somewhere 
else besides that happy meadow.  As one of my old characters (a really 
reprehensible character) used to say, "Ah'll draw us a map."  That is, I'd 
_like_ to have a map before entering that forest.

--Laning
Q:  What's the best way to make a small fortune in the wargaming industry?
A:  Start with a large one.
      -An old but true saw.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>

At 02:56 PM 4/9/02 -0600, you wrote:
> > We really should pay someone like Loren or Doug a LOT more money for
> > their work.
>
>Well, it's all a matter of what the market will bear.  Software pays
>better because there's more demand.  RPGs pay worse because there's
>not as much.

The above statement tends to be true but the real world is not as simple 
nor as true as that.  It only becomes a matter of what the market will bear 
when the market is huge and liquid and the product is 'commoditized' as 
they call it.  And even then are problems with preventing marketplace 
manipulation.  I do not think that our free market system is truly free nor 
is it perfectly efficient.  Prices for lots of things fluctuate wildly due 
to [long string of complex and often silly reasons] rather than any 
fundamental economic cause.  I do not believe in placing blind faith in our 
so-called capitalism (which isn't) any more than I would place blind faith 
in the former Soviet so-called communism (which wasn't).  Now that was some 
good music (Blind Faith, that is).


> > What I would be willing to pay for is a more well-thought out
> > game.
>
>That's part of the value add one gets with a professional editor.
>Most people cannot properly edit their own work.  I wonder if it might
>not be possible for there to be money in taking freely-available work
>and compiling it onto one large work.  Slap a compilation copyright
>over the whole thing (to prevent others from just grabbing it up), but
>the individual pieces are still free for anyone.

There's probably some money, but even less than in being a line editor 
now.  It would certainly be a useful contribution.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:12:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>
References: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
 <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
 <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl used the sig:
>Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
>food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
>parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
>they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
>                --Socrates, c.  5th century BC

One of several great sigs you employ, Mister Robert Uhl.  :->

Socrates really didn't much like people who he couldn't keep under his 
thumb, did he?  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:15:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:15:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <20020410051456.C94E127ABE@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/10/02 at 02:08 PM,  "Shane Slamet" <s.slamet@bom.gov.au> said:

>> Star Wars Name =
>>
>> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>>
>> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
>> were born.

>Hmm..  Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
>Using your equation, I'd be:  Shasr Baden

>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name First 3
>letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

>Which for me yields:  Anemet Slabar
>I dunno, they're both kinda cool.

Either way you have the same number of letters in every name. How
about...

First name: The first 1d6 letters of your first name + the first 1d6
letters of your last name.

Last name: The first 1d6 leters of your mother's maiden name + the
first 1d6 letter of the city where you were born.

Jamere Rit
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:26:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:26:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: prior careers
In-Reply-To: <200204092104.DSD06042@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011514.027e7ec0@pop.wizard.net>

At 05:04 PM 4/9/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Leonard Erickson asks
> >
> >"the rifle"?
>
>Remington 700 Police DM, in .308. (Comes with HS Precision
>stock with integral aluminum bedding block). Action
>reworked/firing pin replaced with titanium pin, barrel
>replaced with heavy contour Douglas Premium Match barrel,
>Timney trigger, Leupold Mark V M3 10x scope with mil-dot
>reticle, NEAR one-piece scope base optimized to get the most
>elevation adjustement out of the scope, Vortex flash
>suppressor, bipod, Simrad KN-250 GEN III night vision with
>adapter to fit over Leupold Mark V.
>
>Some were frightened just by seeing it, some by going to the
>range with me and *seeing* it.

So we're talking about people who are comfortable enough to go shooting at 
a rifle range, but want to politely form a covert vigilante gang to stop 
you from being around their place of work if you have a really nice target 
rifle.  People call me weird, but I think "people" need to look in the 
mirror sometimes.

--Laning
"A rifle is only a tool. It's a hard heart that kills." -Gunnery Sergeant 
Hartman in 'Full Metal Jacket' by Gustav Hasford, Michael Herr, and Stanley 
Kubrick


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:27:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:27:22 2002
Subject: [TML] When too much time occurs...
Message-ID: <3CB3CC38.F01EE8A9@mail.cswnet.com>

Dig out the Monopoly game...
...locate Vilani by Lonnie:

http://tribble.dreamhost.com/vilani.html

and convert those street names to vilani!!!

Baltic Avenue---Barikune Barik
Conneticut Avenue---Kaanerikuru Nekaan
Atlantic Avenue---Arukanirikune Rukanir
Boardwalk---Buriduurkibu 
[this one I fudged-stuck an "I" in for the last name"
Luxury Tax---Ukukashuriikasharu Kukashurii
Free Parking---Biriiginikira Mibirii
B&O Railroad---Baaduurukar Ibi&aa

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:34:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:34:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <14d.c0033de.29e50df4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEONGFAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Urk

Johlo Nornew no like

Grunt


> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname 
>for first name 
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the 
>town where you were born. 
> 

  Okay, I'm game. Let's see... 

  Why yumpin' yimminy, looks like I'm Kenmu Ersan :) 

 -Ken- 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:44:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:44:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:12:37AM -0400
References: <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409234307.A19761@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:12:37AM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> The above statement tends to be true but the real world is not as simple 
> nor as true as that.

What I mean is that man, viewed as an organism, seems not to value RPG
line editors as highly as information architects (but, e.g., higher
than garbagemen).  That valuation has no moral meaning, of course.
It's just that there aren't enough people willing to pay enough to pay
line editors what IT people get.  Would _you_ pay $130 per supplement?

> I do not think that our free market system is truly free nor is it
> perfectly efficient.

Oh, it's certainly not free, which fact leads to numerous injustices
and inefficiencies.  But it's still a market.  _Every_ economy is a
market, no matter how it may try to disguise the fact.

> There's probably some money, but even less than in being a line editor 
> now.  It would certainly be a useful contribution.

Well, it's commonly accepted (among those who think about these
things) that the primary service provided by content providers is
filtering of the dregs.  The Web allowed every man to be a publisher.
And a million million screaming <blink> tags were born.

Filtering of the 5.99 billion morons in the world is an editor's job,
one that most do quite admirably.  Supporting that is a useful thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
           --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:14:40AM -0400
References: <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost> <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net> <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost> <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020409234739.B19761@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:14:40AM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> One of several great sigs you employ, Mister Robert Uhl.  :->

Thanks for the compliment.  I've rather a large amount of them, to
tell the truth.  I've 264, which are randomly assigned by a Perl
script attached to a named pipe.  Many, I'm afraid, are longer than
the so-called McQ limit (4 lines), but I don't particularly care; it's
a relic of a bygone era.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
This is why they complain--they don't _want_ to have brains.  Those lead
to thoughts, and thoughts cause only suffering.  Thus, by asking them to
think, you are inflicting the torments of the damned on the previously
blissfully ignorant.        --John Rowat, in alt.tech-support.recovery

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:54:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:54:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <200204092132.DSF01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410014708.027e3070@pop.wizard.net>

John T Kwon quoting and responding to Sam D:
> >I think most Marines can hit a torso sized target at 500
> >yards about 100% of the time.
>
>Marines yes, Army infantry, no way.  And that assumes that
>your enemy is standing in the open.  Most experienced
>soldiers go into the prone.  Once you're in the prone, the
>bolt action in the hands of a sniper has the advantage,
>because you can hit grapefruit-sized targets very reliably at
>300 to 400 yards, and most of the time at 500.  Take those
>same Marines and try to have them hit the grapefruit at 500.
>There's probably a Distinguished Marksman in there, isn't
>there?
I couldn't agree more.  I am a Marine who could hit consistently score 5s 
at 500 yards with iron sights, but getting that little grapefruit-sized 
circle is a much bigger challenge.  If I had stayed in the Corps, I think I 
would have continued improving at hitting those bullseyes but it would have 
taken some more years.  And then presbyopia and astigmatism afflicted my 
vision somewhat starting in my mid- to late-30s.  It would have taken years 
to get pretty damned good (for someone who isn't a sniper) and then there 
would have been a small window of quality before declining vision screwed 
that up.  Although it's entirely possible that most of my vision problems 
are related to going into computers during my 30s and spending _way_ too 
much time in front of monitors.



>The exact words of one of the police, inspecting my
>rifle: "Boys, if we ever run into someone with one of these,
>and he's in a strongpoint, there's no way we're going to get
>him without losing half the team or more."

Apparently he forgot the correct tactical employment of smoke 
grenades.  And maybe his boys don't have those armored gunshields to hide 
behind.  Or if it really comes down to it, use a .50 cal or 20 mm on an APC 
belonging to a nearby Army or Marine unit.  Although I always wondered 
about using wire-guided ATGMs with a standoff spike for those kinds of 
guys, heh.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr  9 23:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr  9 22:56:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <20020409.225614.-2687.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 00:14:54 -0500 "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
writes:
>
> 
> Either way you have the same number of letters in every name. How
> about...
> 
> First name: The first 1d6 letters of your first name + the first 1d6
> letters of your last name.
> 
> Last name: The first 1d6 leters of your mother's maiden name + the
> first 1d6 letter of the city where you were born.
> 
> Jamere Rit
> -- 

Oh, I like the options. though my original - Barst Cotor is cool.
Let's see - 5,3,4,1 - Ooops, there's only four letters in my first name.

= Barista Corrt

Not bad

Barst Cotor - Barbarian
Barista Corrt - Other - Barmaid


Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:02:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:02:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <20020410.001437.-391371.2.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204100809390.28175-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

> Star Wars Name =
> 
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first 
> name
> 
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town 
> where you were born. 

Mikpa Auhel.

Hilarious...

-- 
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410003144.027e33e0@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:02:24AM -0400
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <200204090137.DQR01452@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020409075831.54763.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409134356.027d2ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020409124032.A17826@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net> <20020409141022.A18068@4dv.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020410003144.027e33e0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020410001141.C19761@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:02:24AM -0400, laning wrote:
>
> From reading your various emails, I am quite sure you're a nice
> person.

I'd like to think so, but I've no idea.  Can any man judge himself?

> I just don't want the script kiddie types piling on the bandwagon.  Or the 
> hordes of people who do something because "it's cool".

I'll agree there.  In many ways, popularity is the bane of any set of
ideas.  Witness the twits in computers, the twits in politics, the
twits in religion &c.  Computers, politics and religon are not
inherently twit-ful, but they are plagued by twits nonetheless.

> Huh?  I was unaware of your efforts in this area, and of travlib.

Travlib is a GPLed library intended to, eventually, model the entire
spectrum of the Traveller universe, from galxies to characters.  Right
now, it represents astronomical things only (galaxies, sectors,
subsectors, systems, stars, planets, belts and moons).  It's written
in C, using the gtk+ toolkit for object orientation, with Scheme
bindings using guile to enable easy scripting.

I'm currently working on two projects.  The first is the addition of
First In generation rules, with the code written in Scheme (which I
feel is uniquely suited to this sort of thing); eventually I will be
implementing CT rules as well, although internal data representation
will always be in GT terms, which are for most cases more granular.
The second project is travtrack, a GNOME application which will enable
the user to edit said data (and thus track his Traveller campaigns,
hence the name).  I've got a galaxy browser which is almost
functional...

The site is <http://travtrack.sf.net/>.  It's not over-nice, mostly
because there's not a whole lot to show yet.  My beta version of
travlib is done; travtrack is very much a work-in-progress.  The
application which comes with travlib is called travshell: it is a
Guile interpreter with travlib linked in by default.  This means that
you can write:

(define galaxy (trav-galaxy-new))
(trav-mapobject-set-name galaxy "My First Galaxy")
(define sector (trav-sector-new))
(trav-mapobject-set-name sector "A Beginner Sector")
(trav-mapobject-add-child galaxy sector)

And things like that.  Right now the library using an XML-like schema
for printing data to a file and reading it back, but I'm planning on a
Scheme special forms interface, so that one might write:

(trav-galaxy
#:name "My First Galaxy"
#:comments "The first galaxy I ever created"
  (trav-sector  #:name "A Beginner Sector")
  (trav-sector #:name "Another One"
    (trav-subsector)
    (trav-subsector)))

And so on.  As someone has said, XML is S-expressions with a painful
syntax.  But that will be a long while from now.

> Why should it bother Stephen King?  Because he should have an ounce
> of sympathy for all the other people out there who are his sisters
> and brothers in spirit: they are compelled to write and be read by
> others.

What I mean is that he has raised the standards of his profession
(personally, I loathe him and his work, but his was an example which
leapt to mind); the sympathy he should have for others less able than
he--and who have been harmed because the bar has so been raised--is
much the same sympathy that any of us has for any failure.  Sympathy,
yes.  Aid, certainly.  But no-one would ever say I write good horror
(not that I wish too): that's just a fact of life, in roughly the same
way that I will never win a race.

> Why should it bother you?  That's different.  You aren't personally 
> dominating an industry so much that other people are being squeezed 
> out.  It shouldn't bother you in the least.

Well, open source enables that sort of domination.  Linux Torvalds
wrote an OS.  Tanenbaum no longer, I think, sells many copies of
Minix.  Even the BSD projects are being relegated to the status of
footnote to history (unfairly, in many ways, but in just as many ways
it's their own fault).  It's deuced difficult to compete against free
software.  And by free I don't mean price; I mean freedom.

Regarding those who are threatened thereby, I can only say that I
don't make my living in software.  I'm a Unix system administrator; I
program in my free time.  I cannot do what I like (partially because
what I like includes freeing the product).  When I was younger I spit
chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it
sometime).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Interestingly, most Unix utilities have a command line option which will
cause the system to rip the user's legs off and beat them to death with
the soggy ends.  This is often the default behaviour.    --Bruce Murphy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F164o8C7wyfwjHNuQuN000048cd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410020404.027d89a0@pop.wizard.net>

At 08:59 PM 4/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off some 
>M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and issuing them at 
>the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max 500 yards?) and 
>sniper (800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the guy with the M14 the 
>"designated marksman" or something like that.  The guy who wrote the 
>article I read did not like the idea, because of the the difficulties 
>associated with the accurized M14s as stated above and standardization 
>issues, but from what I understand these were deployed to Afghanistan so 
>we should be getting reports soon.

Glad to hear we're doing that.  It's basically the latest variation on 
something we've at least theoretically been doing for many decades.  Each 
four-man fire team during my time in had one guy designated as the 'sniper' 
or 'marksman' or something.  Can't remember the proper term with any 
certainty.  The problem with that (during my time in) was that the position 
usually had more to do with seniority than marksmanship ability.

Ever since at least WW1, our tactical commanders have tried to concentrate 
a small unit of their best shooters to be available for various 
tasks.  Full-blown official snipers are scarce at even the regiment 
level.  So regiments, battalions, companies, and even platoons have tried 
to single out their most skilled guys for use in this regard.  There have 
been various times when these tactical efforts became a formal part of 
official TO&Es and doctrine.  Other times they were officially disapproved 
and commanding officers had to be more or less surreptitious and subversive 
to do this.  This long-term tendency is probably partly influenced by our 
old role (inherited directly from the British Royal Marines, so it goes 
back to more than two centuries) of providing snipers in the rigging aboard 
sailing ships.

These efforts by tactical commanders have often been mingled with efforts 
to create their own private "Life Guards" unit, if you will, and a recon 
capability.  Commanders like to have a reserve of best-quality troops to 
influence the battle with.  A major conflict within the Marine Corps since 
it is a fundamental axiom of our existence that all Marines are elite and 
none are more elite than others.  It was the major argument against the 
Marine Raider battalions (which were eliminated) and against the Force 
Recon battalions (which were eliminated or nearly so a dozen times in fifty 
years), and it doesn't look to be going away although Force Recon seems to 
be in pretty good health these days.  I have no problem with it and think 
it is a good thing.  I never noticed other Marines getting their feelings 
hurt over it either.  It seems to me more of a theological debate between 
passionate followers of different faiths than anything else.  Or possibly a 
fear that the competition among officers to get their "ticket punched" by 
an assignment to Force Recon was just too exclusive a competition.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:22:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:22:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F36GB9wIWXLU9778dvM000038ae@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022011.027e0130@pop.wizard.net>

At 09:18 PM 4/9/02 +0000, Sam D wrote:
 >>>
Did you guys see that a female teenage Marine won the national matches 
(with an M16) a few years ago?
<<<

OORAH!!


>The .223 is a fairly accurate round, on par with most cartridges.  The 308 
>is theoretically more accurate.  It is certainly more resistant to the 
>wind.  But as far as semi-auto platforms, there is nothing better than 
>Stoner's design.  Put a 308 in an M16 platform, like the AR-10 or SR-25, 
>and you get outstanding accuracy.

I've wondered for a long time about getting an AR-15 or similar chambered 
for .308.  How does it perform on full auto?  (I imagine it has issues with 
the barrel overheating more than a heavier weapon would.)  Rapid semi?  Is 
there even such an animal sold commercially?

Not that I have any actual use for such a thing.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D89BAB.38054%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020408135946.02824dd0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>

At 01:22 PM 4/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
>It should be noted that analysis of casualties in the Vietnam war showed the
>5.56x45mm to be 11% more likely to produce a casualty (lethal) than
>7.62x51mm.  Of course the NVA and VC may have just dragged off all the
>bodies with 7.62 holes in them to confise us poor Americans.

Colt was probably paying them a bounty for the corpses with the big bullets 
in them.  Damned megacorps!


> > Including poorer
> > accuracy.
>
>What?!  The M-16 has consistently proved to have a smaller MOA than the M-14
>since adoption and up to the present day.

I am not equipped to wage a war of statistical analyses, and will 
abandon.  Even surrender, if I must.  But let the record show that I  trust 
statistical studies and proving grounds testing only so far.  Anecdotal 
evidence from actual field users of my acquaintance is not convincing (to 
me) for either side of the argument.

I also remind everyone that all other things (like velocity and sectional 
density) being equal, the more massive bullet will penetrate cover better 
and that most troops you're shooting at will seek cover if they're not 
already using it.  Big bullets still have their advantages.

And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting 
results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting 
dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or 
.308?  Or something else?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:39:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:39:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17936@r1clex01.cbr.defe
 nce.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410023924.027e4ad0@pop.wizard.net>

At 10:46 AM 4/10/02 +1000, Mikey (Michael Hughes) wrote:
>PBEM:
>
>I am thinking about running a PBEM D&D game for a friend. Does anyone know
>of a How To website out there for running PBEM RPG sessions?

I was thinking there's a need for the same thing.  Or at least will soon be 
a need.  Perhaps interested parties should form a new mailing list, and 
person or persons on that list be appointed to cull together an FAQ for WWW 
posting?

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 00:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Tue Apr  9 23:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starship Insurance
In-Reply-To: <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410025025.027e56d0@pop.wizard.net>

After posting information of good pragmatic value to referees, Bill Scheets 
said:

>More on insurance later, if there is sufficient interest.

Keep up the good work!  The faint whirring sound you just heard was my hard 
drive as I saved your full post.

And yes, that's how I remember it working with seat belts.  Then safety 
harnesses.  Probably air bags before not much longer.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 01:10:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 00:10:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20409.111435.4V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204052132.DKV01486@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410025314.02b56df0@pop.wizard.net>

Leonard says, regarding nuclear warfare:
>If they have reason to *expect* that sort of thing?
>
>A *lot*. Especially given that once nuclear damper tech is available,
>decontamination is a matter of raising the decay rate of the fallout
>and other contaminated material as high as you can without generating
>more heat than you want to deal with.
>
>A planet is a *big* place.
>
>There's also the fact that if you do it to them, you'd better expect
>them to return the favor.

Let us not forget that if the planet is an industrialized world, then most 
of the people and other interesting targets will have conveniently 
clustered themselves together in cities or military bases.  Five or ten 
thousand warheads with 50- to 100-megaton yield that reach their urban, 
suburban, and unhardened military targets will pretty much take that planet 
out of the battle for at least one generation.  Of course, their 
spacefaring navy will not be impacted by this immediately.  And, as you 
say, they'll be looking to return the favor.  I'm just picking random 
numbers, but numbers very easily within the capability of the Ziru Sirka or 
any of the Imperiums.

Sure, there will still remain plenty of places on the planetary surfaces 
that are fairly livable.  But the good harbors, river junctions, mountain 
passes, and natural resource sites will tend to be pretty 
unlivable.  Infrastructure and manufacturing capabilities will be all but 
destroyed, and the people to repair and rebuild will mostly be dead.

If everyone gets a chance to hide in good bunkers first, at least you can 
have huge chunks of population survive the immediate attack.  They'll still 
have to deal with the disabled infrastructure, which will lead to a lot of 
starvation.  Most of the facilities needed to repair and rebuild will still 
be destroyed.

I have too vague an image of how canonical nuclear dampers will precisely 
behave to really describe all how they will help, and what will be beyond 
their help.  It probably varies quite a bit from one referee's TU to 
another's.  I'd guess some referees only have them work if they're focused 
on ground zero at the time of the explosion, while others let you do 
whatever kind of prevention and clean up sounds theoretically within the 
limits of such a technology.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 01:18:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 00:18:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204100843280.2105-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405032128.02b7a2a0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410031600.02c08230@pop.wizard.net>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link:
>I have been making notes on a run for my
>upcoming rebirth Traveller game. Team finds a "disk" that contains the
>secret information. but it is not compatible with what they have on the
>ship. Now how do they read the information with out destroying the
>contents.


I suggest referring to Web pages for professional data recovery 
companies.  Like On Track Data Recovery.
www.ontrack.com but beware of relatively heavy graphics and java scripting.

Western Digital's Web site (mostly known as a hard drive maker) is where I 
usually go to get a bunch of hyperlinks to data recovery firms when I need 
to refer people.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 01:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 00:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018300890.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20409.224111.2G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Derek Wildstar writes:
>> At 03:46 PM 4/8/2002, Sam Draper wrote:
>>>I have read in tests that little darts at high velocities are
>>>remarkably innefective.  They just punch through and do little
>>>tissue damage.
>> 
>>  From what I recall reading, the 60's era Army tests with
>> high-velocity flechettes in the SPIW program.  This weapon was
>> proposed by AAI, and fired 65 gram steel flechette at high velocity
>> (about 4800fps).
>
> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).
> A 65 gram projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.

65 grams is about 2.3 *ounces*. Ouch.

4800 fps = ~1460 m/s. 

Yeek! That's almost 70 kiloJoules muzzle energy! 

Yeah, that'd make folks go splat.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041108.027fb7c0@pop.wizard.net>

>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

That makes me Ingaty Pollan.  Sounds Hungarian or something.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] News from Delphi
Message-ID: <LAW2-F147TrBoe2U8QV000064a3@hotmail.com>

Hi,

I was wondering how is the Delphi history project going, I looked at their 
site, but it hasn't been updated since 2000.

Graham

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <14d.c0033de.29e50df4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020410031345.009c9260@minn.net>

At 11:39 PM 4/9/2002 EDT, you wrote:
>> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname  
>>for first name 
>>  
>> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the  
>>town where you were born.  

Leslie Allen Keller (Mom remarried) St. Charles (or Saint Charles),
Illinois, a suburb of Chicago.

Leska Dostc
Leska Dosai
Leska Dochi
Lesba Dostc
Lesba Dosai
Lesba Dochi

Cool...


=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041108.027fb7c0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <00d401c1e045$6ab952a0$9307b286@Shane>
 <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1792E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020410032033.009cc4c0@minn.net>

At 04:12 AM 4/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
>>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name
>
>That makes me Ingaty Pollan.  Sounds Hungarian or something.
>
>--Laning

Leslie Allen Keller (Mom remarried) St. Charles (or Saint Charles),
Illinois, a suburb of Chicago.

Lieler Keldon or, Lietes Batdon




=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 02:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 01:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409234739.B19761@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
 <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
 <200204092035.DSD02139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020409145644.A18183@4dv.net>
 <3CB427EB.4737.B785A0@localhost>
 <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041435.027f87e0@pop.wizard.net>

Robert Uhl quoteth me and respondeth:
>On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:14:40AM -0400, laning wrote:
> >
> > One of several great sigs you employ, Mister Robert Uhl.  :->
>
>Thanks for the compliment.  I've rather a large amount of them, to
>tell the truth.  I've 264, which are randomly assigned by a Perl
>script attached to a named pipe.  Many, I'm afraid, are longer than
>the so-called McQ limit (4 lines), but I don't particularly care; it's
>a relic of a bygone era.

Keep up the good work.  :->

>--
>Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>This is why they complain--they don't _want_ to have brains.  Those lead
>to thoughts, and thoughts cause only suffering.  Thus, by asking them to
>think, you are inflicting the torments of the damned on the previously
>blissfully ignorant.        --John Rowat, in alt.tech-support.recovery

Tech support professionals are often more interested in proving their 
intellectual or genetic superiority over the "untermenschen" they "help" 
than in actually fixing problems.  The culture of elitism and braggadocio 
gets inculcated in many tech support reps before they even acquire skill in 
their primary job functions.  Reps who are confined solely to email support 
tend to be the worst.  I speak from personal observation of reps from 
several different companies, but confine my opinions to first and second, 
and sometimes third, echelons of support.

I will now prove my point by bragging.  During my tenure as an AOL tech 
support rep, I was documented to be one of the very top few best at 
actually fixing problems of any rep who has ever been in their database.  I 
rule.  And one of the primary causes of my success was treating each 
customer like a reasonable human being dealing with a problem completely 
unfamiliar to them.  Listen intently, don't talk down.  Think about what 
the actual problem is and how to fix it, don't waste mental bandwidth on 
looking for evidence to support my prejudice that all customers are 
inherently mentally defective.  If I'm so damned superior, what the hell am 
I doing working as a mere tech rep?  Most of the customers I talked to were 
being paid better than most of the reps I worked with.  Now who is the 
dummy?  :->

[And please don't anyone start with that empty and worn out "AOL sucks" 
crap.  Unless you've worked on their dev teams and are familiar with their 
host and network architectures.  And don't start with "AOL tech reps aren't 
real tech reps" unless you've worked with me or one of many, many other 
individuals I could name.  When you have that many thousands of reps, some 
of them are going to be damned good.  If you're still inclined to insult us 
after that, fine.  You'll probably be singing very different types of 
insults though.  I've my own stack of insults for AOL but it's more about 
wasted business opportunities, managers who are empire builders, and 
rampant cronyism.]

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 03:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 02:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020410085426.A2419@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020410191917.B3737@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is
> that if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we
> would prefer that neither of them drop.

Yes, that's one effect.  For example, light photons have sufficient
energy to cause certain chemical changes in pigments in the eye;
that's how we see.

If the chemical energies are a hundred times lower and Planck's
constant is unchanged, a light photon doesn't just affect sensitive
pigments, it rips electrons out of stable molecules and breaks
chemical bonds.  That's what we normally call "ionising radiation".

We can't just use light that has a hundred times lower frequency,
because it has a hundred times longer wavelength.  OK, I guess we can,
but it involves changing the speed of light...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 03:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Wed Apr 10 02:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041435.027f87e0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


AOL *does* suck.  I was a member back in 1996-97.  I had nothing but
problems with that wretched service.  My personal information was sold
to all sorts of bulk-emailers, spammers and porn sites.  The 45 minute
"click on this" to stay online button was a pain in the ass.  If you
minimized AOL and ran a browser, you didn't even get the warning..you
just got disconnected.   If you started AOL minimized, you'd get one of
their "click on this yes or no" advertisements and could not click on it
to finish logging on..so you had to disconnect and restart the whole
program.

Downloading was a joke.  You had to sit at your computer and wait for
the 45 minute button or lose the download.  (downloading the demo to
Wing Commander: Prophesy (69megs) was terrible).

I had to deal with a ton of unwanted porn mail and spam.  I had to deal
with the above frustrations.  I had to deal with support people
(obviously I never got you) who were clueless.

I had just paid for a month's time when I called up and said I wanted to
terminate my membership.  The person on the phone explained that they
could not refund my money and that I had almost a full month left.  I
said it didn't matter, I just wanted out.  So he turned my account off
and that was that.

2 months later, I got a bill from AOL saying I owed them for a month's
services.  So I had to call them and explain that I wasn't a member and
had quit in good standing.  The person on the phone looked into it and
agreed it was a mistake and told me it would be taken care of.

1 month later I get a second notice in the mail, demanding I pay my bill
or else.  Again I call them up and again they apologize and fix the
problem.

1 month after that, I get a notice saying that they are forwarding my
bill to a collection agency.  I call up and this time I tell them that
if AOL ever mails me again or contacts me in any way, I will sue.  The
person on the phone was very apologetic and promised I would never be
bothered again.

I wasn't.

A few months later, my mother calls me on the phone sounding concerned.
She asks, "Is everything ok?"  I replied to her, "yeah, why do you ask?"
She then tells me that AOL sent a past-due notice to her in my behalf
and that she paid it.

So AOL managed to *steal* money from my family that they had no right
to.  To this day I still get their stupid free CDs in the mail.

There are very VERY few things in this life I hate more than AOL.  If I
could destroy AOL and get away with it, I promise you I would.  They
have made an enemy of me for life.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 03:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Wed Apr 10 02:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410031600.02c08230@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <001701c1e075$33bf6020$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----


I suggest referring to Web pages for professional data recovery 
companies.  Like On Track Data Recovery.
www.ontrack.com but beware of relatively heavy graphics and java
scripting.

Western Digital's Web site (mostly known as a hard drive maker) is where
I 
usually go to get a bunch of hyperlinks to data recovery firms when I
need 
to refer people.

--Laning



Use an oscilloscope.  Read the magnetic wavelength off the platters and
subtract the perfect part of the signal.  What you have left is data.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <200204101125.DTH00304@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>
>= Barista Corrt
>

Sounds like you work at Starbucks.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gearhead Goodies: couple of rocket missile books
Message-ID: <3CB3DC6C.16284.140D91@localhost>

friend of mine has been flying model rockets for years, and he was showing me some 
blueprints and a  couple of books on rockets and missiles. 

www.arapress.com
the Spaceship Handboook and Rockets of the World



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGGCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> >
> >A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
> >bone from a walrus penis.  See
> >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html
>
So when I tell my girlfriend that I've got a "Boner",
I'm really speaking Eskimo?

-Shawn-



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:35:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:35:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEGGCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> >
> >A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
> >bone from a walrus penis.  See
> >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html
>

Ancient Eskimo wisdom say:
Never knife fight man with hairy palms.

-Shawn-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:52:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:52:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F217LltyKF5Q6JVW8s20001d6e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410044431.009e86c0@mindspring.com>

At 02:22 AM 4/10/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the 
>conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.

In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat 
in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?

Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public 
opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the 
region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.

All of these could be applied to the 1st Interstellar War.  The Vilani 
might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really capable of, or were 
under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder.  ISTR from losing endless 
games of Imperium to Craig that the Imperial governor was beholden to his 
superiors.. asking for the necessary firepower was a big blow to his 
prestige.  Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion snetients would do?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 05:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 04:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> 
> At 07:28 PM 4/9/2002, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
> >Team finds a "disk" that contains the secret information. but it is not 
> >compatible with what they have on the ship. Now how do they read the 
> >information with out destroying the contents.
> 

IMTU I have what's called "Imperial Standard".
These items cost 0-10% above the LBB price.
Anything Imperial Standard has compatible connectors
and data formats. Thus your Inertial Map Locator
can connect to your communicator to transmit it's data
to another players communicator, that is connected to 
his map box and hand computer. You get the drift.

-Shawn-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> QUOTE
> The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
> civilians.  It has little or no military application,
> contrary to popular mythos.
> END QUOTE
> 

Commanders who have given the order to "fix bayonets" to
scared troops, often notice an increased level of confidence
and moral. 

-Shawn-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

While putting together an exploratory cruiser for TNE (coming shortly) I
reread the information in the Solomani & Aslan book regarding the Solomani
explorations into the neighbouring Perseus arm of the galaxy.

It struck me that the ships of these expeditions would be quite challenging
to design. Mission length must have been in decades so the ships must have
been to a great extent self supporting. But just how would the ships cross
into the next arm?

Contrary to popular opinion there are stars in the gaps between the arms,
the spirals themselves being defined by bright stars. But as to how many
stars and whether fuel sources could be found there?

Assuming the ships were built to TL14 or 15 standard this means jump 5 or 6
maximum, and it is likely that in the "gaps" fuel sources may be further
apart than this. Very embarrassing for a ship to run out of fuel!

So IMHO the ships would also be fitted with Bussard Rams to scoop up the
hydrogen found in the space between arms. This would not be used for the
HePLar thruster but to refuel the jump drive and power plant. (Though this
makes the ship even bigger as it does have to carry enough maneuver fuel to
get up to a velocity where the Ram Scoop functions.

Any ideas?

Anyone want to have a go at designing one using FFS1?
Could such a ship work at all given Traveller Tech limits?

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409234307.A19761@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410010316.027df860@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:12:37AM -0400
Message-ID: <3CB4DAB8.15448.3769A3@localhost>

On 9 Apr 2002 at 23:43, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> What I mean is that man, viewed as an organism, seems not to value RPG
> line editors as highly as information architects (but, e.g., higher
> than garbagemen).  That valuation has no moral meaning, of course.
> It's just that there aren't enough people willing to pay enough to pay
> line editors what IT people get.  Would _you_ pay $130 per supplement?

If the NZ dollar drops back to its former low vs the US$ and the price 
in the US of supplements goes up much more, I'll be forced to pay about 
that or do without. And if they were good supplements for a game I was 
playing (or was likely to in the near future) I probably would, sucker 
that I am.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>
References: <B8D89BAB.38054%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4DCF1.26051.4017AA@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 2:36, laning wrote:

> I also remind everyone that all other things (like velocity and sectional 
> density) being equal, the more massive bullet will penetrate cover better 
> and that most troops you're shooting at will seek cover if they're not 
> already using it.  Big bullets still have their advantages.

Yep. A source of complaint from the older guys when we switched from 
the L1A1s (a bit before my time, though the Air Farce was still using 
them in the early 90s) to the M16A1 and finally the Stryr AUG was that 
the 5.56mm bullet wouldn't go through 18" or 2' thick pine trees, 
whereas the 7.62x51 bullet would.
 
> And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting 
> results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting 
> dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or 
> .308?  Or something else?

I'd be quite happy with a .308, as long as I was used to the particular 
weapon. I'd prefer a .30-06, or in very close country a 12ga magnum 
shotgun (pump or semi-auto). However a lot depends on whether it's thin 
skinned or not - Leopards run up to 150-160 pounds and .243 is 
considered adequate for them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 06:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 05:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410041435.027f87e0@pop.wizard.net>
References: <20020409234739.B19761@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3CB4DE5E.18426.45A995@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 4:35, laning wrote:

> Think about what the actual problem is and how to fix it, don't waste
> mental bandwidth on looking for evidence to support my prejudice that
> all customers are inherently mentally defective. If I'm so damned
> superior, what the hell am I doing working as a mere tech rep?  Most
> of the customers I talked to were being paid better than most of the
> reps I worked with.  Now who is the dummy?  :-> 

Now, I agree with you about not wasting mental bandwidth, but you've 
got the reason all wrong. the real reason to not look "for evidence to 
support my prejudice that all customers are inherently mentally 
defective" is that unless you've a self-esteem problem (like many of 
your co-workers obviously did) you'll know beyond a shadow of a doubt 
that you're superior. That being the case, why waste time proving 
something already self-evident?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 07:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed Apr 10 06:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Portland class scout cruiser
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBGEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

PORTLAND CLASS SCOUT CRUISER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION

The Portland class fitted into the small gap between escorts and light
cruisers. Most were deployed with the Confederations exploration division,
though the limited jump capacity, 1xJump-3 was considered something of a
hindrance, though careful mission planning could overcome this to some
extent. Portlands ranged far and wide, both on exploration and intelligence
work. Some were used by the Confederation navy, the two parallel 7,000Mj
N-PAW weapons providing a useful capability. More being used as defacto
cruisers as the 2nd Rim War progressed.

The Confederations exploration division responded to this by somehow
ensuring that most of the Portlands operated by them managed to stay far
beyond the Confederations borders. This also meant that a disproportionate
number of this class survived the war and the impact of virus.

In the absence of more capable vessels the Confederation also despatched a
number of Portlands on long range missions to search for any sign of
returning vessels from the Perseus Arms expeditions. These too had failed to
return when virus swept through the Solomani Confederation.


General Data Displacement: 15,000 tons  Hull Armour: 60
Length: 180 meters  Volume: 210,000 cubic meters
Price: MCr6,885.97438  Target Size: L
Configuration: Wedge SL  Tech Level: 13
Mass: (Loaded/Empty) 137,937.6836/122,269.5345 tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 25,287Mw Fusion Power Plant (99.95Mw/hit), 1
year duration (83.7951Mw surplus)
Jump Performance: 1xJump-3 (42,000 cubic meters)
G-Rating: 3 (7,500Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G Turns: 82 (96.9 with jump-2 reserve, 111.9 with jump-1 reserve, 126.8 with
no jump reserve), 937.5 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 5,012

Electronics Computer: 3xTL13 Fb (0.9Mw each)
Commo: 2x300,000km Radio (10 hexes, 10Mw each), 2x1,000AU Maser (8, 0.6Mw
each),
Avionics: TL10+ Avionics
Sensors: 2x150,000km Passive EMS Fixed Array (5 hexes; 0.2Mw each),
2x300,000km Active EMS (10 hexes; 27.5Mw each), 2xTL13 Densitometer (0.9Mw
each), 2xTL12 Neutrino Sensor (0.01Mw each), 12xRunning Lights (0.0001Mw
each)
ECM/ECCM: EM Masking (210Mw), 36xDecoy Dispensors
Controls: Bridge with 98xBridge Workstations, Auxiliary Bridge with
98xBridge Workstations, Flag Bridge with 11x Bridge Workstations, Fire
Control Bridge with 15xBridge Workstations, plus 252 other workstations

Armament Offensive: 2xTL13 7,000Mj Parallel Mount N-PAWs (Loc: 4,5; Arcs:1;
194.4445Mw each; 19 Crew each), 20xTL13 106Mj Laser Turrets (Loc:
4x2,4x3,4x8,4x9,4x10 ; Arcs: 1,2,3; 29.4445Mw each; 1 Crew each), 8xMissile
100-ton Bays (Loc: 2x6,2x7,2x14,2x15; each with 4 missile/recce drones and
96 missiles or recce drones each; 0.15Mw each; 1 Crew each)

 Short  Medium  Long  Extreme
7,000Mj Parallel N-PAW  10:418  20:418  40:418  80:418
106Mj Laser Turret  10:1/8-26  20:1/6-20  40:1/3-10  80:1/2-5
-2 Difficulty Levels

Defensive: TL13 Meson Screen (PV=285; 90Mw; 4 Crew), 6xTL13 Nuclear Damper
Barbettes (Loc: 3x16,3x17; Arcs: All; 9Mw each; 1 Crew each), 10xTL13
Sandcaster Turrets (Loc: 5x18,5x19; Arcs: All; 2D6x5 per hit; 35 Cannisters
each; 1Mw each; 1 Crew each)
Master Fire Directors: 7xTL13 (4 Diff Mod; Beam; 10 hexes; 2.95Mw each; 1
Crew each), 8xTL13 (4 Diff Mod; Beam/Missile; 10 hexes; 3.1Mw each; 1 Crew
each)

Accommodations Life Support: Extended (42Mw), Gravitic Compensators (4G;
1050Mw)
Crew: 675/687 (252xEngineering, 6xElectronics, 4xManeuver, 131xGunnery,
52xMaintenance, 41xShip's Troops, 6xFlight Crew, 156xCommand, 23xSteward,
5xMedical),Flagship adds (3xElectronics, 8xCommand, 1xSteward)
Crew Accommodations: 382xSmall Staterooms (0.0005Mw each), 10xLow Berths
(0.001Mw each)
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 1,355.7 cubic meters, four large cargo hatches
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: 1 15-ton RF14D Scorpion class recon
fighter with internal hanger (minimal) and one launch port, 2 30-ton Puffin
class ship's boats with internal hangers (minimal) and one launch port each
Air Locks: 150
Additional Fittings: 2x8-ton Sick Bays (0.8 Mw each), 2x10-ton Machine Shops
(1 Mw each), 2x6-ton Electronics Shops (0.6Mw each)

Notes
Fuel purification equipment (121.4037Mw) is sufficient to purifiy 24,280.74
cubic meters in 6 hours (30 hours for entire load exclusive of power plant
fuel) Fuel scoop capacity is 42,000 cubic meters per hour (2.83 hours for
entire load exclusive of power plant fuel).

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  		Surface Hits  	Internal Explosion  		Systems
1  			1-2:Ant  		1-19:Elec,20:Qtrs  		PP-253H,JD-252H,
2-3   					1:LT,2-16:Qtrs,17-20:Hold  	FPP-170H,
4-5,12-13  		1:AL  		1-2:PA,3-20:Hold  		LS-123H,PA-80H,
6-7,14-15  		1:AL  		1-2:PA,3-7:MBy,8-20:Hold  	ELS-62H,AG-42H,
8-10  		1:AL  		1-2:PA,3:LT,4-20:Hold  		MD-23H,EMM-21H,
11  			1:LP,2:CH  		1-2:PA,3-20:Hold  		Hanger-21H,
16-17  		1:AL,2:Decoy  	1-2:PA,3:ND,4-5:Elec,6-20:Hold  MScreen-14H,
18-19  		1:AL,2-4:EMMR  	1-2:PA,3:Sand,4-20:Eng  	MBy-14H,ND-1H,
20  			1:EMMR  		1-2:PA,3-20:Eng  			LT-1H,Sand-1H,
   											ElecShop-1H,
   											MachineShop-1H,
   											SickBay-1H,
   											EMMR-(210h),MFD-(4h),
   											MFDAnt-(2h),AEMS-(2h),
   											Neutrino-(2h),SSR-(2h),
   											All others-(1h)

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
Message-ID: <200204101359.DTL04671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Antony Farrell" asks
<snip question about how to refuel in the middle of nowhere>

There are many brown dwarfs that are probably not on star 
charts, substellar or even Jupiter-sized gas giants in the 
middle of nowhere.

Ice balls, cometary bodies, etc.  Even clouds of hydrogen, 
depending on where you are.

You might, as you say, require specialized equipment to 
locate, identify, and exploit such resources.

Also, your ship may have backup power generation that 
provides a means of keeping the crew alive and the ship able 
to move enough to collect fuel.  This backup power generation 
is probably nuclear fission, which allows the ship to 
potentially go without hydrogen (albeit without jumping 
anywhere) for some time.

You may also remember Annic Nova.  That ship used power 
accumulators (and solar power to load them). 

So let's consider a ship with a nuclear fission base 
powerplant (to keep everyone nice and warm, and provide a 
little extra power to charge jump accumulators a la Annic 
Nova).  We'll also throw in a deployable solar array, in case 
we're near a star.

If we're in the middle of nowhere, with no sunlight, we 
charge the accumulators off of the excess power from the 
fission reactor.  If we're near a star, it's a bit quicker to 
recharge, since we get some solar power.

There might even be additional closed-cycle hydrogen/oxygen 
fuel cells.  These could be recharged from any other power 
production, and could be endlessly recycled.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022011.027e0130@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D9980E.382D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 11:24 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

>> The .223 is a fairly accurate round, on par with most cartridges.  The 308
>> is theoretically more accurate.  It is certainly more resistant to the
>> wind.  But as far as semi-auto platforms, there is nothing better than
>> Stoner's design.  Put a 308 in an M16 platform, like the AR-10 or SR-25,
>> and you get outstanding accuracy.
> 
> I've wondered for a long time about getting an AR-15 or similar chambered
> for .308.  How does it perform on full auto?  (I imagine it has issues with
> the barrel overheating more than a heavier weapon would.)  Rapid semi?  Is
> there even such an animal sold commercially?
> 
> Not that I have any actual use for such a thing.

Been living in a cave?  The original AR design was for a .308 (AR-10).
Current variants include the AR-10 and SR-25.  Like any full-auto .308, the
AR-10 is difficult to control.

It should be noted that the AR-10 and clones are no more prone to
overheating than any other .308 as current guns use barrels that are
comparable to other rifles.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <F210hWdlurZFj9V1M0i00013a41@hotmail.com>

>
> > Star Wars Name =
> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
> > name
> >
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town
> > where you were born.
>
>Mikpa Auhel.
>
>Hilarious...

Gresm Mopit

aka Andma Mopit



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8D99957.382D9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 11:36 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting
> results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting
> dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or
> .308?  Or something else?

You forgot to add:  "Using ball ammunition only".

We are speaking of military weapons here, so let's get the ammo right.
There is no question that if ammunition selection is not restricted,
7.62x51mm is more lethal.

Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 over 7.62x51mm
ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
any particular caliber.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:28:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:28:22 2002
Subject: [TML] [Fwd: TML Landrgrab]
Message-ID: <3CB44B6D.D543DDB3@premier.net>

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Another JTAS subscriber want to join in the Landgrab.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.
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From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
To: "'landgrab@downport.com'" <landgrab@downport.com>
Cc: "'wombat@premier.net'" <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: TML Landrgrab
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 09:47:20 -0400
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I would like to stake a claim on the following worlds in the Spinward
Marches:

Keng/Regina
Kegena/Rhylanor

Thanks,

	Brian Hurrel

Brian L. Hurrel
ICS Analyst
EDS
(973) 682-5578



--------------905666F0ED2E48681BD24B32--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:30:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:30:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20409.224111.2G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8D99A5C.382DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/9/02 11:41 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

>> 
>> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).
>> A 65 gram projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.
> 
> 65 grams is about 2.3 *ounces*. Ouch.
> 
> 4800 fps = ~1460 m/s.
> 
> Yeek! That's almost 70 kiloJoules muzzle energy!
> 
> Yeah, that'd make folks go splat.

I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.

69,562 Joules of energy
1,130 joules of free recoil

25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 08:31:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Wed Apr 10 07:31:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <F101tqbFkSX50mLWfFz0001f08d@hotmail.com>

>>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
>>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
>>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name
>
>That makes me Ingaty Pollan.  Sounds Hungarian or something.

Oryith Smimoo  / Regith Smimoo (if I went with 'Greg')

aka

Rewock MacMoo

Not too bad, eh?




Andy Mac


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F221lf8nFJ3VTPlu4kA0000f71e@hotmail.com>

Tod Glen wrote:>Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 
over 7.62x51mm
>ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
>is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
>any particular caliber.

It is a tuff call.  It appears that the 5.56mm does actually make bigger 
wounds, as long as there is sufficient tissue to penetrate, as long as the 
velocity is above 2700 fps.  With an M16 that is like 200- yards; with the 
M4 it is only 100-140 yards.  After that range, you are better off with the 
bigger round.  And the 7.62x51 certainly penetrates through cover better at 
all ranges.  But however you weigh those tradeoffs, there is no doubt that 
you are going to have to be carrying around an extra 5-10 pounds of gear 
with the bigger rifle.

It is my understanding that there is some griping after Afghanistan about 
the M4's performance.  Its lack of "stopping power" and penetration is being 
critisized.  With the 62 grain bullet, I think the muzzle velocity is only 
like 2900 fps.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F116kY5TetpIuPHDXE20001de7d@hotmail.com>

laning writes:

>And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting
>results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting
>dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or
>.308?  Or something else?

Using soft points, .308 (7.62)is actually probably overkill a bit for (human 
sized) deer.  Something in the .257 to .284 (7mm) range is adequate.  Most 
people still go with .30 caliber, because it is popular and it gives a 
little margin for error.  .308 is more appropriate for larger game, like elk 
(400 + pounds, with a much heavier bone structure).  It is important to keep 
in mind that when the US Army went to .30 caliber cartridges, they thought 
it was still important to stop a horse.  I think their choice goes a little 
overboard for infantry.  The Army has thought about going to a 7mm cartridge 
twice.  The first time, between the wars, it was decided that it would be a 
mistake to make all of the 30-06 ammo laying around obsolete.  The second 
time, under pressure from the British after WWII, the Army was still in awe 
of the Garand's performance and decided to go with 30-06 ballistics in a 
shorter package.

Then they went to .22.  Go figure.  The British were not too pleased.  And 
the rest of the Western world ended up with 7.62x51 rifles that are 
difficult to control, to put in lightly, on full-auto.

IMHO an assault rifle in the 6.5-7mm range and a velocity of 2800 fps would 
be a fine weapon.  Good for deer too.

.223 is largely considered underpowered for deer of the size you mention.  
It is legal where I live, but one problem you run into is that you must use 
soft points and they will not yeild sufficient penetration.  I read an 
article last year by a guy who went and shot a bunch of deer with centerfire 
.22s, and his conclusion was that the results were good so long as (1) you 
use bullets that hold together well, like Nosler partitions, and (2) the 
velocity is above 2700 fps, which coincidentally is the critical velocity 
for FMJ ammo too.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>; from ShawnSears@telocity.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:05:34AM -0400
References: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEGHCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20020410095004.A21459@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:05:34AM -0400, Shawn R Sears wrote:
> 
> Commanders who have given the order to "fix bayonets" to
> scared troops, often notice an increased level of confidence
> and moral. 

This may be related to the visceral fear one feels when faced with a
blade: when on the wielding end, it may possibly feel much more
empowering than a simple rifle does.

I know in my own case that I feel somehow more prepared when carrying
a sword than when carrying a rifle or pistol.  This may even be the
real reason dress swords have survived as long as they have.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I once successfully declined a departmental retreat, saying that on that
day I planned instead to advance.                    --Alan J. Rosenthal

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F215PT3lz5yrFVq9GNS00002f52@hotmail.com>

laning said:

>I've wondered for a long time about getting an AR-15 or similar chambered
>for .308.  How does it perform on full auto?  (I imagine it has issues with
>the barrel overheating more than a heavier weapon would.)

I imagine that full-auto is uncontrollable.  The were only a few thousand of 
the original AR-10s made (for Portugal and the Sudan?), and they only 
weighed like 7 pounds.  I believe the SR-25 and modern AR-10 are heavier, 
like the same as an M14.  To tell you the truth, I am not even sure if they 
make full-auto versions.  It would probably be a little more controllable 
than an M14, even if it was the same weight, because the stock is in line 
with the barrel.

>Rapid semi?

I think you would get good results.  Israel uses the SR-25 as a sniper 
rifle, in conjunction with Remington 700s.

>Is there even such an animal sold commercially?

The SR-25 is made by an outfit called Knight's Armament, and the AR-10 is 
made by Armalite.  Both are for sale to the public; I think the AR-10 can be 
had for as little as $1,000.

>Not that I have any actual use for such a thing.

That is what my wife says about all of this Traveller stuff.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 09:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 08:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F206POYFSrAuWiqJmdT00013683@hotmail.com>

laning wrote:

>At 08:59 PM 4/9/02 +0000, you wrote:
>>On a related note, I read recently that the Marines were dusting off some
>>M14s, putting optics on them and bedding the barrels, and issuing them at
>>the squad level for the "hole" between rifleman (max 500 yards?) and
>>sniper (800+ yards?) ranges.  I think they call the guy with the M14 the
>>"designated marksman" or something like that.>
>Glad to hear we're doing that.  It's basically the latest variation on
>something we've at least theoretically been doing for many decades.

I guess the army is experimenting with the same concept, although they are 
using M16s with free floated 18" match barrels, supressors, and Leupold 
2.5-8 scopes.  I don't think these are for general issue, but have gone to 
special forces.  Some of the AP pictures show these weapons in use in 
Afghanistan.

I am sure the Army and Marines will be able to evaluate their respective 
designs, and rationally decide which approach is the best.  ;)

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 10:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 09:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204101603.DTP06500@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>
>It is my understanding that there is some griping after 
>Afghanistan about the M4's performance.  Its lack 
>of "stopping power" and penetration is being 
>critisized.  With the 62 grain bullet, I think the muzzle 
>velocity is only 
>like 2900 fps.
>

There was the same griping about the M4 from the Somalia 
experience.  Some people were hit as many as six times in the 
torso at less than 50 yards, and did not go down, or even 
slow down.  Now, some of the targets were high on khat, which 
is a stimulant, so it's hard to say.  I think of "high" 
people the same way I think of deer - unless you hit them in 
the right spot, they are going to try and run.  

For deer and 4-legged animals, I usually try and hit the 
shoulder, looking for a bone hit.  This means that I must 
have a bullet capable of breaking bone on impact at the 
desired range.

For people, other than a head hit, I'm thinking that 
shattering the pelvis would be very useful, but I'm thinking 
that's a heavier bone than deer shoulder.

It almost makes me think that if you really wanted to be sure 
of putting someone down, you have to hit them in just the 
right spot.  An M4 through the skull is going to put you 
down.  

It's too bad we don't use hunting ammunition in combat.  I 
think that if we had a better optimized bullet, the M4 would 
be fine.  Maybe not very good at armor penetration anymore, 
but great at stopping.  It was said earlier that non-ball 
makes a .308 very deadly.  Sure.  And a .338 even more so.  
But if we're stuck with 5.56mm, then we should redesign the 
round to maximize wounding.  Probably go back to a lighter 
bullet for the M4 (since we're shorter range anyway), maybe 
even 50 grains, and make it a varmint bullet designed to blow 
apart inside the body (to make a temporary cavity a permanent 
one). Get that velocity up, and make sure the round does not 
exit the body.

To paraphrase Apocalypse Now, to prosecute people for war 
crimes (like using hunting ammunition) is like handing out 
speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

 
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 10:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 09:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F11APfrrF69u7tS1RkF00004676@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon says:

>There was the same griping about the M4 from the Somalia
>experience.  Some people were hit as many as six times in the
>torso at less than 50 yards, and did not go down, or even
>slow down.  Now, some of the targets were high on khat, which
>is a stimulant, so it's hard to say.

From what I understand, the guys in Somalia had not yet been issued M4s; 
they had XM177s/CAR-15s with little 10 or 11 inch barrels.  The muzzle 
velocity with those weapons is only like 2500 fps.

In the book Blackhawk Down, one of the Rangers unloads his M60 on a guy and 
it takes a few bursts to put him down.  We ought to issue that Khat to our 
troops!

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 10:58:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 09:58:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <20020410.095929.-78189.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 07:25:02 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com  says
> >
> >= Barista Corrt
> >
> 
> Sounds like you work at Starbucks.

Yea, Starbucks in Startown - Lousy place for coffee, but the actions not
bad.

Just remember to roll the R's in "Corrt" bucko, or I'll have ya tossed
outa here by our new bouncer - Barst Cortor the 7 foot tall 300 lb
Barbarian.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204100809390.28175-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <DAV32eCyWu1MRRNOqcC0001c03c@hotmail.com>

> > Star Wars Name =
> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
> > name
> >
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town
> > where you were born.

Bilsc Guazl  [sigh]

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
Message-ID: <200204101709.DTR06672@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>> > Star Wars Name =
>> >
>> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your 
surname for first
>> > name
>> >
>> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of 
the town
>> > where you were born.
>

Trying this again.  John Kwon.  Chapel Hill.  Mother's maiden 
name is Sweezy.

Joh + kw = Johkw
Sw + Cha = Swcha

Johkw Swcha

Not very easy to pronounce.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5@aol.com>

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   Shane writes:
> Star Wars Name =
>
> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>
> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
> were born.

Hmm..  Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
Using your equation, I'd be:  Shasr Baden

But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name

Which for me yields:  Anemet Slabar
I dunno, they're both kinda cool.

   Hmmm, okay, that sounds cool too--lets see what I get :)

   Ethphy Murerw? I dunno... I think I liked Kenmur Ersan better :)
  -Ken Murphy-


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Shane writes:
<BR>&gt; Star Wars Name =
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where you
<BR>&gt; were born.
<BR>
<BR>Hmm.. &nbsp;Shane Slamet, Barron, Denpasar
<BR>Using your equation, I'd be: &nbsp;Shasr Baden
<BR>
<BR>But the thing is, I always thought the equation was:
<BR>Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name
<BR>First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name
<BR>
<BR>Which for me yields: &nbsp;Anemet Slabar
<BR>I dunno, they're both kinda cool.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Hmmm, okay, that sounds cool too--lets see what I get :)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Ethphy Murerw? I dunno... I think I liked Kenmur Ersan better :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40@aol.com>

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   Rob wrote:
   When I was younger I spit
chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it
sometime).
 
   It'd be an interesting exercise to see if the skills acquired could be 
generated using CT's "Other" career, or whether you'd have to knockout an 
entirely new set of skill tables--a somewhat scary proposition either way you 
look at it :)
  -Ken-
   Who is currently halfway through his 5th term in a still-as-yet 
undetermined career ;P
   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Rob wrote:
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;When I was younger I spit
<BR>chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it
<BR>sometime).
<BR> 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;It'd be an interesting exercise to see if the skills acquired could be generated using CT's "Other" career, or whether you'd have to knockout an entirely new set of skill tables--a somewhat scary proposition either way you look at it :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Who is currently halfway through his 5th term in a still-as-yet undetermined career ;P
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Craig Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020410143005.F2EB127AB3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0204100927470.24254-100000@hollywood.cinenet.net>

> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 04:49:00 -0700
> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> At 02:22 AM 4/10/02 +0000, you wrote:
> >Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the
> >conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.
>
> In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat
> in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?
>
> Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public
> opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the
> region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.

And a muddled, unrealistic set of goals for the operation.  We went in
with no understanding of Vietnamese history, society, psychology, or
politics, and expected to galvanize the South into a uniform resistance
force and to persuade the North to back off based on our *potential*
ability to stomp them flat.  Nobody ever seems to have considered what
would happen if they called our bluff.

> All of these could be applied to the 1st Interstellar War.  The Vilani
> might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really capable of, or were
> under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder.  ISTR from losing endless
> games of Imperium to Craig that the Imperial governor was beholden to his
> superiors.. asking for the necessary firepower was a big blow to his
> prestige.  Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion snetients would do?

You recall correctly, and in my mind this is sufficient to explain how the
Terrans managed their initial victories while outnumbered and outgunned
thousands to one (taking into account the full Vilani might).  I get the
strong sense that the Ziru Sirka practiced "shoot the messenger"-style
management a great deal; the status quo and normal operations were
the ideal, and regional governors were tacitly expected to report
"everything is okay!" while quietly dealing with any irregularities before
they came to wider attention.  To admit that a situation had come up that
you couldn't handle was taken as a failure of planning or procedure, with
the obvious effects on your career.

I am very strongly of the opinion that the local Vilani governor knew all
about the Terrans; probably several of them did, over the century or two
immediately preceding official contact.  Remember, the ZS was quite used
to encountering minor human races as it expanded, and I'm sure there were
exhaustively documented procedures and case studies on how to proceed with
their integration into the ZS.  The Terrans simply didn't operate
according to the 'rules', and the governor was terrified to report this
fully to his superiors.  The rest is (future) history.

-- 
   |   Craig Berry - http://www.cinenet.net/~cberry/
 --*--  "All that lives is holy." - William Blake
   |


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCELGDOAA.andy@exeus.com>

> But the thing is, I always thought the equation was: 
> Last 3 letters of first name + Last 3 letters of last name 
> First 3 letters of last name + First 3 letters of mother's maiden name 

Rewick Briglo at your service.

Andy Brick
75% of Term 4 done. Aging rolls only a short while away ...
 
 
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.345 / Virus Database: 193 - Release Date: 09/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
Message-ID: <200204101734.DTT01888@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

For a good look at a list of 'munitions' please see

http://www.eurospace.org/usml.pdf

Tedious.  It seems to be whatever may be remotely useful in a 
weapon-related sense.  No plasma guns on the list - yet.

ObTrav: Still wondering how to handle "permits".  Or even the 
law level restrictions (which I think are odd - of course, 
there aren't any real countries where the rules make sense).

It could be worse.  If you want to hunt in Germany you have 
to wear the Keebler Elf outfit.

"It says here on the back of the permit that if I want to 
carry my PGMP in public, I have to wear the "customary" pink 
bike shorts and traditional "penguin" face mask."
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
In-Reply-To: <200204101734.DTT01888@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:34:43PM -0400
References: <200204101734.DTT01888@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020410120024.A21755@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:34:43PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> It could be worse.  If you want to hunt in Germany you have 
> to wear the Keebler Elf outfit.

???

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Friends don't let civilian friends report military affairs.  It
embarrasses the reporter, and grossly misleads the public.
                                                 --Laning

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40@aol.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGMCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1E099.1C0062D0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 Rob wrote: 
  When I was younger I spit 
chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe I'll write it 
sometime). 

Chicken Spitting?

It sounds like something a lion might do if the chicken tasted fowl. ;-)

-Shawn-

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1E099.1C0062D0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;Rob wrote: =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;When I was=20
younger I spit <BR>chickens (quite possibly the world's worst job; maybe =
I'll=20
write it <BR>sometime).&nbsp;<BR><BR></FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Chicken=20
Spitting?</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D601160418-10042002>It=20
sounds like something a lion might do if the chicken tasted fowl.=20
;-)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D601160418-10042002>-Shawn-</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1E099.1C0062D0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
Message-ID: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" wonders
>On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:34:43PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>> 
>> It could be worse.  If you want to hunt in Germany you 
>>have to wear the Keebler Elf outfit.
>
>???
>

When I was stationed in Germany, I wanted to hunt.  So I 
signed up for classes, paid a HUGE chunk of cash for classes, 
fees, etc.  Then I had to hire a guide. No option given 
there. The classes were extensive and mandatory (especially 
considering that the area I was going to hunt in is the size 
of a small park, and is neatly manicured).  At the end, I sat 
with my guide in a plush treestand.

It was mandatory that I wear the lederhosen.  I am glad no 
one has a picture of that.  That outfit is expensive.

And now the guide is instructing me on which deer I can 
shoot, and which are not permitted.

Have to tip the guide as well.  Most expensive deer I ever 
ate.  It's what happens when a culture is based entirely on a 
layered bureaucracy.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
Message-ID: <200204101816.DTU00025@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"John T. Kwon" says
<snip about hunting in Germany>

I could have gone to South Africa and hunted for two weeks, 
airfare included, for what I spent to hunt in Germany.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGMCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>; from ShawnSears@telocity.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:07:54PM -0400
References: <99.24a00d4e.29e5cf40@aol.com> <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGMCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20020410122225.B21755@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:07:54PM -0400, Shawn R Sears wrote:
> 
> Chicken Spitting?

There is (or was--it may have gone out of business) a chain called
Boston Chicken (later Boston Market) whose main draw was its
rotisserie chicken.  I prepared the chicken.

The way it works is that Sysco would deliver great plastic boxes of 16
chickens each.  There was a great plastic bag in the box which held
the chickens and the flavouring they were packed in.

I would go to the freezer and haul out 128 or 256 chickens (8 or 16
boxes) and wheel the pallet over to my workstation.  I'd then prepare
the garlic marinade: a gallon of apple cider vinegar and a package of
this garlic/sugar power mixture.  Then I would repeat the following
process over and over:

1) Open box
2) Slit open bag
3) Remove chicken
4) Slide hand into icy cold chicken and pull out any fat
5) Dunk chicken in marinade
6) Slide chicken onto spit and fix with spike
7) Repeat 3-6 thrice (four chickens to a spit)
8) Repeat 1-7 until no more boxes

It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over
me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar.

I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
For 93 million miles, there is nothing between the sun and my shadow
except me.  I'm always getting in the way of something...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
In-Reply-To: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:10:51PM -0400
References: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020410123043.C21755@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:10:51PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> It's what happens when a culture is based entirely on a layered
> bureaucracy.

LOL.  My favourite history prof in college told the story of trying to
name his son while he and his wife were living in Germany.  They
wanted to name him Calvert, after his wife's maiden name.  Apparently
one must take one's names from a great book of approved names--of
course Calvert wasn't in it.  So he asks them what he needs to do.
The clerk goes back to her superior and they discuss it for awhile,
then she returns and states that if he can get a letter from the
American consul stating that Calvert is an approved American name,
then he can name his son that.

So he went on down to the consul, they all had a good laugh, and the
letter informing the German registry that Calvert is approved for use
in America was sent.

OTOH, I daresay Germany has no-one name Moon Unit or Dweezil, so the
policy is not entirely incorrect.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Farewell Romance the Soldier spoke
By skill-of-sword we may not win
But scuffle 'midst the unclean smoke
Of arquebuse and culverin
Honor is lost and none may tell
Who paid good blows, Romance farewell.
                            --Kipling

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <200204101843.DTV03242@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert reveals chicken spitting
<snip>

I, and probably others, (Doug?) have done the burning of 
human waste thing.

Nothing like stirring burning human waste, sloshing the 
liquid around, trying to find a "clean" spot to grab the can, 
being permeated by the stench of diesel, smoke, and shit 
(pardon my French).

It's something that you were put on a duty roster for, so you 
didn't get it every day.  But it always came around.  When we 
started, I asked if we were going to be issued some good dope 
to smoke while we were burning the stuff.  After all, we had 
seen that in Platoon...

The powers that be were not amused.
________________
Do you think my being stronger and
faster has anything to do with my
muscles in this place?...Do you think
that's air that you are breathing?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 12:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 10 11:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020410191917.B3737@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 10, 2002 07:19:17 PM
Message-ID: <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is
> > that if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we
> > would prefer that neither of them drop.
> 
> Yes, that's one effect.  For example, light photons have sufficient
> energy to cause certain chemical changes in pigments in the eye;
> that's how we see.
> 
> If the chemical energies are a hundred times lower and Planck's
> constant is unchanged, a light photon doesn't just affect sensitive
> pigments, it rips electrons out of stable molecules and breaks
> chemical bonds.  That's what we normally call "ionising radiation".
> 
> We can't just use light that has a hundred times lower frequency,
> because it has a hundred times longer wavelength.  OK, I guess we can,
> but it involves changing the speed of light...

I get the feeling that you're trying to change constants rather than
looking at the problem as a closed system where all four fundamental
forces are modified in the same ratio (actually, I'm still hazy on
whether or not gravity should be included in this). To do so, I think
we really need to look at the most simple problems, involving only a
single atom or a pair of atoms. Otherwise, we may be dealing with a
system that is too complex to really analyze completely. I'd like to
return to the previous example, involving electron orbits. I'm going
to reiterate from my prevous post.

you write:
> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
> well.

Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
energy level of an electron in an atom?

I've heard that the atomic nucleus is held together by the interplay
between the strong and weak forces, the strong force keeping the
positively charged protons together while the weak force tries to
rip them apart. I suppose that since this idea of taming the quantum
foam should reduce both forces equally, the stability of the
nucleus would be uneffected (the effects of the strong & weak force
reductions should cancel out).

However, I'm not sure how to handle the problem of electrons, which
you mention above. But I'll try to tackle it anyway, so what follows
it totally off the cuff. I'm guessing that the electromagnetic force
keeps electrons attracted to the positively charged atomic nucleus
and repulsed by each other, hence accounting for their movements
(of course, this probably falls apart at some level, but bear with
me). Well, I'm just guessing here, but if their movements are determined
by the repulsive & attractive effects of the same force (electromagnetic),
then reducing that force should have no net effect, as reduction in
repulsion will be perfectly offset by the reduction in attraction.
In short, and I'm no physics major, so correct me if I'm wrong,
once again what I would expect is that these changes cancel out,
resulting in there being no need to change Planck's constant.

Am I totally wrong here? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 13:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 12:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>

At 08:03 PM 4/10/02 +0800, you wrote:

>So IMHO the ships would also be fitted with Bussard Rams to scoop up the
>hydrogen found in the space between arms. This would not be used for the
>HePLar thruster but to refuel the jump drive and power plant. (Though this
>makes the ship even bigger as it does have to carry enough maneuver fuel to
>get up to a velocity where the Ram Scoop functions.
>
>Any ideas?

A very interesting idea.

My first reaction to the problem was a squadron of ships, most of which are 
various kinds of rider configuration.  Including one configuration that 
carries a smaller ship, capable of jump-4 or higher and maneuver-1 and 
specializing in jumping with reusable modular fuel tanks and dropping them 
off, then going back to fetch more.  Eventually, they've dumped off a big 
enough fuel cache to support the squadron as it jumps on through.

Perhaps, only one ship one would jump through first.  A ship designed to be 
ready for trouble at the other end if trouble happens to be there.  Then it 
jumps back.  If the other end doesn't have a fuel source either, it will 
have to either carry enough fuel for two jumps or do a reduced jump so that 
it keeps enough fuel to jump back to the fuel cache.  All very tedious.  If 
necessary, the first fuel cache can be used as a jump off to establish a 
second fuel cache farther on.  Even more tedious, but doable.  That should 
get the squadron or at least one lead vessel of the squadron across a 
pretty big gap.

Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination 
star system.  Added to an astronomical database that must be built up far 
beyond what we presently have managed on Earth and from our lowly little TL 
7 or 8, undersized, spacecraft and only observing from the vantage of one 
solar system.

The exploring squadron probably will not have to do much guessing about 
fuel sources along the way, and will have their route well mapped.  The big 
surprises will be what come from close-in observations when they arrive in 
a system, and who/what life they meet along the way.

Any of the astronomy gearheads able to tell us anything about the average 
density and class of the stars in that region?

Are there rules that indicate how much space must be allotted for spare 
parts and repair equipment necessary to keep a ship provisioned for 
decades?  And just who the heck would pay for a trip that won't be heard 
from until after the financier is dead?  (Government, I guess.)  Who the 
heck would _go_ on the trip?  You need a military-style command structure 
to stay organized and on target during the trip, but can you feasibly get 
entire families of qualified crew to submit themselves to living out the 
remainder of their lives that way?  Or instead of families, will it go the 
opposite direction and be only people who've left all earthly attachments 
behind (lol) and are equipped with a plentiful supply of anagathics?  I 
don't recall anything that specifies the age limit for someone on a regular 
regimen of anagathics...Go out forty years and then turn around and come 
back?  My questions are spawning faster than I can type them out.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>

At 08:03 PM 4/10/02 +0800, you wrote:

>So IMHO the ships would also be fitted with Bussard Rams to scoop up the
>hydrogen found in the space between arms. This would not be used for the
>HePLar thruster but to refuel the jump drive and power plant. (Though this
>makes the ship even bigger as it does have to carry enough maneuver fuel to
>get up to a velocity where the Ram Scoop functions.
>
>Any ideas?

A very interesting idea.

My first reaction to the problem was a squadron of ships, most of which are 
various kinds of rider configuration.  Including one configuration that 
carries a smaller ship, capable of jump-4 or higher and maneuver-1 and 
specializing in jumping with reusable modular fuel tanks and dropping them 
off, then going back to fetch more.  Eventually, they've dumped off a big 
enough fuel cache to support the squadron as it jumps on through.

Perhaps, only one ship one would jump through first.  A ship designed to be 
ready for trouble at the other end if trouble happens to be there.  Then it 
jumps back.  If the other end doesn't have a fuel source either, it will 
have to either carry enough fuel for two jumps or do a reduced jump so that 
it keeps enough fuel to jump back to the fuel cache.  All very tedious.  If 
necessary, the first fuel cache can be used as a jump off to establish a 
second fuel cache farther on.  Even more tedious, but doable.  That should 
get the squadron or at least one lead vessel of the squadron across a 
pretty big gap.

Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination 
star system.  Added to an astronomical database that must be built up far 
beyond what we presently have managed on Earth and from our lowly little TL 
7 or 8, undersized, spacecraft and only observing from the vantage of one 
solar system.

The exploring squadron probably will not have to do much guessing about 
fuel sources along the way, and will have their route well mapped.  The big 
surprises will be what come from close-in observations when they arrive in 
a system, and who/what life they meet along the way.

Any of the astronomy gearheads able to tell us anything about the average 
density and class of the stars in that region?

Are there rules that indicate how much space must be allotted for spare 
parts and repair equipment necessary to keep a ship provisioned for 
decades?  And just who the heck would pay for a trip that won't be heard 
from until after the financier is dead?  (Government, I guess.)  Who the 
heck would _go_ on the trip?  You need a military-style command structure 
to stay organized and on target during the trip, but can you feasibly get 
entire families of qualified crew to submit themselves to living out the 
remainder of their lives that way?  Or instead of families, will it go the 
opposite direction and be only people who've left all earthly attachments 
behind (lol) and are equipped with a plentiful supply of anagathics?  I 
don't recall anything that specifies the age limit for someone on a regular 
regimen of anagathics...Go out forty years and then turn around and come 
back?  My questions are spawning faster than I can type them out.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Huxton)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>

Idle speculation from an idle speculator, and it must have been asked 
before...

We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any upper limit 
("that's no moon...")

I had a sudden vision of a jump-capable planet working its way around the 
galaxy sucking gas giants dry between jumps.

Any gearheads got a spreadsheet that can handle this?

Oh, no cheating of course, you have to do this using LBB Book 2 rules at TL13 
and bring the cost in at under 100MCr ;-)

- Richard Huxton



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:09:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:09:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F14rptKlUtfRZGHP4JZ00005b46@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public 
opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the 
region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf."

     "All of these could be applied to the 1st Interstellar War."


Mr. Berry,

     True, but I still have a hard time swallowing it all.
     We've got the constant drum beat in canon about the Vilani "way of war" 
being brutally pragmatic.  They use hostages, have no qualms about nukes, 
target civilians, etc., etc., anything tactic that is cost effective.
     The Ziru Sirka, or it's direct antecedents, were able to put the Vilani 
boot on the neck of quite a number of species and they've kept it there for 
millennia.  The fact that the Geonee, Suerrat, Syleans, et. al. are still 
being kept down at the same time the Terrans show up tells me that the 
Vilani could still get the job done.

     "The Vilani might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really 
capable of, or were under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder."

     After losing the first two Interstellar Wars and visiting the Sol 
system, the Vilani should have known what the Terrans were really capable 
of.  GT:RoF also mentions that the Vilani, when faced with the bewildering 
welter of Terran cultures and genotypes, thought they were facing an 
alliance of several minor human races.  That "threat" alone should have 
spurred some sort of response.
     It's the dichotomy that get's me wondering.  We've got ZS governors 
still keeping the boot on the neck of umpteen minor races, we've got the 
coreward governors arming and using Vargr mercs in political power games 
against each other, and, at the same time, we've got governor after governor 
after on the Rim behaving completely unlike the others throughout the ZS and 
losing piddling wars to a minor race nearly totally confined to a single 
system.

     "ISTR from losing endless games of Imperium to Craig that the Imperial 
governor was beholden to his superiors... asking for the necessary firepower 
was a big blow to his prestige."

     Don't confuse play balance with realpolitik.  As the Vilani player, I 
could spend the prestige points to build larger/more warships early on and 
end up occupying Terra.  The VP table would then paint me as the loser and 
it would be right up to a point.  The Vilani regional governor would "lose" 
but, with Terra occupied, the Ziru Sirka would have actually won.  The 
reverse holds true for the Terran player.  He "wins" because the Vilani 
governor lost too many prestige points, but whose home system is occupied by 
whom?

     "Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion sentients would do?"

     But they'd done it in the past, i.e. the Sky Raiders, and were 
currently threatening to do it to others, the many minor races being held 
down, so why didn't it happen to Sol?  The Ziru Sirka had the numbers, it 
had better technology, and it was chillingly ruthless.  How did it happen to 
lose?
     I'll take my slightly canon-bending answer to that from Cortez' 
conquest of the Aztecs; the Terrans had LOTS of "native" allies.  We all 
learned, wrongly, in school about how Cortez, with only a hundred men, some 
clumsy firelocks, and a few dozen horses, took down the Aztec empire.  Well, 
that makes for good propaganda, but in reality Cortez had tens of thousands 
of native allies, perhaps over 100K of them.
     Cortez visited the Valley of Mexico twice, the first time escaping by 
the skin of his teeth and the second time at the head of an invading army 
nearly 100K strong.  He and his allies built entire fleets to assault 
water-girted capital city of the Aztecs.  The seige went on for months 
before Montezuma finally surrendered.
     IMTU, the "real" story of the Interstellar Wars happens along those 
lines.  The Terrans are greeted at Banard's by a Vilani governor who sees 
them just another tool in his political power games.  The Terrans are 
allowed to expand, are used as deniable mercs in all sorts of Bureau 
bun-fights, and generally bide their time.  Once they feel they're strong 
enough AND they've contacted and recruited lots of those Vilani-oppressed 
minor races, then they strike.  The Terran Confederation wins over the Ziru 
Sirka thanks in large part to their allies; Terran money and Terran gumption 
stir the drink, but the allies provide the mass needed.
     Once the conquest is completed, the Terrans begin to downplay their 
allies contributions and eventually take the Vilani's place as top dog, just 
as the Spanish did with their own allies in Mexico.  Because winners write 
history, the story gets slowly twisted and diluted throughout the Rule of 
Man until it becomes recieved wisdom, an old wives' tale about the 
Interstellar Wars.  The Solomani can't acknowledge how things really 
happened, it would shoot their racist twaddle right out the airlock.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:10:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:10:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020410095004.A21459@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020410195114.49017.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:05:34AM -0400, Shawn R
> Sears wrote:
> > 
> > Commanders who have given the order to "fix
> bayonets" to
> > scared troops, often notice an increased level of
> confidence
> > and moral. 
> 
> This may be related to the visceral fear one feels
> when faced with a
> blade: when on the wielding end, it may possibly
> feel much more
> empowering than a simple rifle does.
> 
> I know in my own case that I feel somehow more
> prepared when carrying
> a sword than when carrying a rifle or pistol.  This
> may even be the
> real reason dress swords have survived as long as
> they have.
> 
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> 
  >>
  That's easily explained: Swords never run out of
ammo, and are a lot harder to break... ;-P~

         MACessna
  >>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:12:21 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F11APfrrF69u7tS1RkF00004676@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155047.01de3120@pop.wizard.net>

Sam D wrote:

>In the book Blackhawk Down, one of the Rangers unloads his M60 on a guy 
>and it takes a few bursts to put him down.  We ought to issue that Khat to 
>our troops!

Give credit to the guy, not the drug.  Nobody at TL 8 or lower makes a drug 
that can turn an average soldier into the Terminator.  I don't discount the 
drug making a difference, but like that.  For at least those last few 
seconds of his life, that poor guy was one of the bravest and toughest 
people in the world.  Drugged or not.

Or, it may just be that he was being spun around so much he hadn't fallen, 
and the machinegunner was too anxious to wait for him to fall and just kept 
firing.  Weird flukes like that kind of thing happen fairly often.

It's a really ugly business to be in.

--Laning

PS  Oh and thanks for the advice on SR-25 and AR-10.  Now if we can only 
get my wife to be able to sleep at night if there's a firearm in the 
house.  Not gonna happen.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D99A5C.382DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20409.224111.2G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155951.01dc24b0@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn on a 65 gram instead of 65 grain bullet:
>I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.
>
>69,562 Joules of energy
>1,130 joules of free recoil
>
>25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)


Tod, what was the free recoil of that elephant rifle again?  For 
comparison.  I found your earlier calculations on the M1, M16, and gauss 
rifle, which were two orders of magnitude lower and then some compared to 
the above 65 gram bullet.

Hm, I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and plug in numbers for known 
weapons and science fiction weapons from time to time.  Then post on a Web 
site so all interested parties can reference it from time to time.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:15:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:15:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>

From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>

     "It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over 
me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar."


Mr. Uhl,

     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what lobsters 
eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!
     Underwater, where those disgusting little buggers live, oils acts as 
odors do for we land animals.  Thus, the bait in each trap must release LOTS 
of nice oils for our shell-bound critters to sense and trail back to the 
trap.  Also, the bait must be refreshed every other day or so.  (The traps 
need to be checked that frequently too, the lobsters tend to eat one 
another.)
     Preparing bait requires:

One 55 gallon drum
One heavy cleaver
One oar or paddle
One piece of wood you don't mind ruining
Lots of "trash" fish
One strong stomach

     Roughly "cuisinart" each fish by chopping it briskly and roughly with 
the cleaver.  Either leave the pieces hanging together by strips of skin 
and/or bone (the mark of a real pro) or let the chunks collect on your 
cutting board.  When the chunks pile too high, drp them in the drum and tamp 
down hard with the paddle.  Repeat until you run out of fish or ruj out of 
drum.
     The next bit is the most important.  Seal the drum up and then let it 
sit in the sun for a couple of weeks at a minimum.  Every once in a while, 
pop the top and give the contents a violent stirring.
     After the bait has "matured" enough, you can put it to use in the bait 
"purses" for your traps.  You either hump the drum aboard or a couple of 5 
gallon pails of the stuff when you go out to check the traps.  As each trap 
is hauled aboard, you have a freshly filled, plastic purse ready to re-bait 
the trap.  The lobsterman removes and measures the damn things while you 
fish out the used purse and put to fresh on it it's place.  Then the empty 
trap and fresh bait gets heaved overboard.
     It get pretty routine after a while and your nose shuts down.  I 
suspect it must be a little like working in a slaughter house.  You just 
don't notice certain things anymore.
     The first time I opened a bait barrel, I fed the fishes until I ran out 
of "chum".  Ma Whipsnade wouldn't allow me to wear my lobstering clothes 
anywhere near the house.  I had to change in the shed out back and run into 
the cellar to wash in a galvanized tub there.  You don't get paid in money 
either, instead a certain number of trpas are "yours" and you can keep or 
sell whatever is in them.  Not a bad job, I got a boat and car out of it, 
but I was happy to start in the screw machine shop once I was legal.  
Chlorinated oil is nothing compared to bait!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen



_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:19:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:19:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
Message-ID: <20020410.133548.-8347.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hey Everybody,

Please feel free to utilize my two new characters IYTU.
If you do, please pass back any updated stats, thank you.

Barista Corrt [roll the R's] - Vilani Hybrid [pick any world]
UPP 768786
18 years young
Very attractive, 
shoulder length blond hair, green eyes
5' 5" 115 lbs
34B-24-34
soft spoken, but tough
New job as a barmaid at Starbucks in Startown.


Barst Cortor - BarbarianBrave
UPP A98342
30 years
Survival-0, Sword-1 [broadsword], Hand Combat-2
Brutish appearance, scared muscular body
long black hair, black eyes
7 foot tall 300 lb
50" chest, 34 - 34
gruff, hash demeanor
New job as a bouncer at Starbucks in Startown.
[due to the brawl at the haul across town]


Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020409155113.B10853@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20410.140930.5r1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> jimv wrote:
>> Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
>> an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
>> move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
>> suppression, they move toward each other much faster
>> than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
>> I wrong?
>
> If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
> on each ion, then it is true.
>
> If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
> to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
> factor of 10.

Which causes *other* problems, because that changes the ratio of the
electromagnetic forces to the nuclear forces in the atom. And changing
the strength of the nuclear forces affects the stability of the nucleus
in other ways. 

Also, there are other "forces" involved in chemical reactions that
depend on the strength of the charges, but not on the *square* of the
strength (ie the don't follow an inverse square law).

So changing the charge affects those also. And not in proportion to
each other.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:23:56 2002
Subject: [TML] testing, Ignore
Message-ID: <B8DA068C.393E0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:26:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:26:46 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155951.01dc24b0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8DA0857.393E8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 1:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn on a 65 gram instead of 65 grain bullet:
>> I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.
>> 
>> 69,562 Joules of energy
>> 1,130 joules of free recoil
>> 
>> 25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)
> 
> 
> Tod, what was the free recoil of that elephant rifle again?  For
> comparison.  I found your earlier calculations on the M1, M16, and gauss
> rifle, which were two orders of magnitude lower and then some compared to
> the above 65 gram bullet.
> 
> Hm, I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and plug in numbers for known
> weapons and science fiction weapons from time to time.  Then post on a Web
> site so all interested parties can reference it from time to time.

a 9 lbs rifle firing a 500 gn slug at 2100 fps has a free recoil energy of
85 Joules.  Just use the form at http://travellercentral.com/rules/ke.html.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:29:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:29:07 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
References: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4A451.4020608@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Have to tip the guide as well.  Most expensive deer I ever 
> ate.  It's what happens when a culture is based entirely on a 
> layered bureaucracy.

That's what happens when you've had no real wilderness for hundreds and 
hundreds of years...you might as well have gone 'hunting' in a corral.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:30:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:30:34 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B8D9F3BB.38CFC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:32:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (listmom)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:32:01 2002
Subject: [TML] test
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204101430010.1171-100000@rhylanor>

this is a test


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:33:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Nick Wright)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:33:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
Message-ID: <001101c1e0d7$3860c120$a8fb883e@fg>

The BBC have reported on what the nattily dressed US soldier will be wearing
on tomorrow's battlefield.  It is a bit worrying though that uniforms will
be "nearly invisible" (4th para).  Where's the Sarge going to sew his
stripes?

Check out

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1908000/1908729.stm

I remain, etc, etc.

Nick Wright


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] List Problems
Message-ID: <B8DA09B3.393F4%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Sorry about the delayed mail, all.  Seems I has some file locking issues
with the list server.  I initially assumed the problem was do to some
systems changes I made, so I did a roll-back only to fins the prblem was
unrelated.

Mail seems to be flowing now.  Please report problems to
listmom@travellercentral.com

Thanks for your patience.

Tod


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:38:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:38:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Counterterrorism
References: <B8DA068C.393E0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <019c01c1e0e0$04f78130$09d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Gentles,

In addition to creating the new TNE sourcebook, finishing up the truly
fabulous T20 rules, and making sure the cats get fed, I'm also doing some
work in counter-terrorism.

Sadly, I don't get to shoot suicide bombers or anything. What I'm doing is
helping promote an organisaton called NSI which is dedicatd to various
anti-terrorist activities.

To this end I need to place articles and generally promote interest in the
organisation.

Anyone whho feels that they may be able to help, or with something to offer,
please contact me offlist.

The technology to prevent a new Sept 11th exists now, yet many of the
measures taken by our governments are nothing but placebos. We could change
that.

Anyone?

Regards

MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020410191917.B3737@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020411083544.A5842@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> I get the feeling that you're trying to change constants rather than
> looking at the problem as a closed system where all four fundamental
> forces are modified in the same ratio (actually, I'm still hazy on
> whether or not gravity should be included in this).

Gravity is essentially irrelevant, barring any unknown effects of
quantum gravity.  Besides, you would have to *strengthen* gravity to
get the same relative effects.  So it shouldn't have the same ratio as
other forces anyway.

Apart from that, your goal is to have the behaviour of atoms (and more
complex systems) behave in the same way as before inertial
suppression, correct?  This requires more than just changing the
strength of forces.


> To do so, I think we really need to look at the most simple
> problems, involving only a single atom or a pair of atoms.

OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
just one simple example.

Hence inertial suppression requires more than just changing the
strength of forces.  If you want the atoms to behave the same way, you
need to alter fundamental constants as well.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:42:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:42:45 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155047.01de3120@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018477349.495.ajackson@ping>

laning writes:
> 
> Give credit to the guy, not the drug.  Nobody at TL 8 or lower makes a drug
>  that can turn an average soldier into the Terminator.  I don't discount
> the  drug making a difference, but like that.  For at least those last few 
> seconds of his life, that poor guy was one of the bravest and toughest 
> people in the world.  Drugged or not.

Actually, no, the drug could easily be responsible.  Much of the reason for
people falling down when shot is that they know they ought to, and drugs can
dull the pain response and/or make you too stupid to realize you've been shot.

The fact that he stood there are got shot several times by an M60 may suggest
why the use of combat drugs is discouraged.  People who are heavily drugged are
not usually known for their good tactics.
> 
> Or, it may just be that he was being spun around so much he hadn't fallen, 
> and the machinegunner was too anxious to wait for him to fall and just kept
>  firing.  Weird flukes like that kind of thing happen fairly often.
> 
> It's a really ugly business to be in.
> 
> --Laning
> 
> PS  Oh and thanks for the advice on SR-25 and AR-10.  Now if we can only 
> get my wife to be able to sleep at night if there's a firearm in the 
> house.  Not gonna happen.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:44:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:44:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
References: <20020410195114.49017.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <014a01c1e0de$3d265b50$09d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>   >>
>   That's easily explained: Swords never run out of
> ammo, and are a lot harder to break... ;-P~
> 

A broken sword is still a weapon to be respected. This I know....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:46:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:46:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
 <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410182447.0390c460@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:37 PM 4/10/2002, laning wrote:
>Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
>detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination

Classic Traveller allowed a starship to determine if gas giants were 
present in another star system from a 1 parsec range.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:49:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:49:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEGNCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Craig Berry <cberry@cine.net>
>
>You recall correctly, and in my mind this is sufficient to explain how the
>Terrans managed their initial victories while outnumbered and outgunned
>thousands to one (taking into account the full Vilani might).  I get the
>strong sense that the Ziru Sirka practiced "shoot the messenger"-style
>management a great deal; the status quo and normal operations were

This is my opinion, as well.  China in the 1700s-1800s operated in much the
same way.

>I am very strongly of the opinion that the local Vilani governor knew all
>about the Terrans; probably several of them did, over the century or two
>immediately preceding official contact.  Remember, the ZS was quite used
>to encountering minor human races as it expanded, and I'm sure there were
>exhaustively documented procedures and case studies on how to proceed with
>their integration into the ZS.  The Terrans simply didn't operate
>according to the 'rules', and the governor was terrified to report this
>fully to his superiors.  The rest is (future) history.

I think the Vegans are what we in contemporary times call the Grays.  They
have been surreptitiously visiting Earth for a while to help us develop into
a human force that can get rid of the Vilani, with whom the Vegans have
never really gotten along.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Lost Causes
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17951@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

The Dougster:
In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat 
in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?

Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public 
opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the 
region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.

Mikey:
The US were never really going to win that one. As Uncle Ho is fondly
remembered saying 'I am willing to lose 10 men for each one of yours'. Hell,
I think the toll in Vietnam for the conflict was about a million on the
Communist side. So given loses of 50k for the US that's like 20 to 1. 

Besides it's a bit hard to 'save' a country that won't save itself. 

My 0.02 of course, so don't roast me slowly over a verbal BBQ.

I'm studying Vietnam now at uni. I particularly enjoyed the battle of Ap Bac
(?), which got turned into a major propaganda piece about the South wiping
the floor with Communist insurgents. When the smoke cleared they found just
3 bodies....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:56:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:56:39 2002
Subject: [TML] test
References: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204101430010.1171-100000@rhylanor>
Message-ID: <3CB4BE9A.1155267C@premier.net>


listmom wrote:
> 
> this is a test

Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled in terror, and you
would not have been informed.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 16:59:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 15:59:21 2002
Subject: [TML] test 5, ignore
Message-ID: <B8DA0282.393D4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:00:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:00:52 2002
Subject: [TML] another test
Message-ID: <B8DA059C.393DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:03:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:03:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204101754.g3AHs5G01686@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20410.144847.1G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> jimv wrote:
>> > in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is
>> > that if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we
>> > would prefer that neither of them drop.
>> 
>> Yes, that's one effect.  For example, light photons have sufficient
>> energy to cause certain chemical changes in pigments in the eye;
>> that's how we see.
>> 
>> If the chemical energies are a hundred times lower and Planck's
>> constant is unchanged, a light photon doesn't just affect sensitive
>> pigments, it rips electrons out of stable molecules and breaks
>> chemical bonds.  That's what we normally call "ionising radiation".
>> 
>> We can't just use light that has a hundred times lower frequency,
>> because it has a hundred times longer wavelength.  OK, I guess we can,
>> but it involves changing the speed of light...
>
> I get the feeling that you're trying to change constants rather than
> looking at the problem as a closed system where all four fundamental
> forces are modified in the same ratio (actually, I'm still hazy on
> whether or not gravity should be included in this). To do so, I think
> we really need to look at the most simple problems, involving only a
> single atom or a pair of atoms. Otherwise, we may be dealing with a
> system that is too complex to really analyze completely. I'd like to
> return to the previous example, involving electron orbits. I'm going
> to reiterate from my prevous post.

The problem is, different things depend on *different* ratios. 

Some depend on things like the charge to mass ratio of particles.
Others depend on things like the ratios of the *squares* of of things.
And some are things like square roots. Or weirder ratios. 

You *can't* make them all match. 
 
> you write:
>> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
>> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
>> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
>> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
>> well.
>
> Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
> energy level of an electron in an atom?

Momentum, charge, Planck's constant, maybe a few other things.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:05:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:05:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204091823.g39INad01345@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20410.141449.7E5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> jimv wrote:
>> > Suppose you take a closed system w/ two ions, each w/
>> > an opposite charge. Under normal circumstances they
>> > move toward each other. But under 99% inertial
>> > suppression, they move toward each other much faster
>> > than they would otherwise. Hmm... is this true or am
>> > I wrong?
>> 
>> If the inertial suppression reduces only the mass and not the charge
>> on each ion, then it is true.
>> 
>> If the inertial suppressor reduces the mass by a factor of 100, then
>> to keep the same acceleration you need to reduce both charges by a
>> factor of 10.
>
> Under the premise of the inertial suppression idea, inertia
> is defined as the electromagnetic drag caused by mass accellerating
> through the zero point field (essentially due to subatomic interactions
> with virtual photons). So, if this were the case, it might hold true
> that the EM force would be reduced by inertial suppression, at least if
> one assumes that EM forces are transferred via virtual photons, sort of
> like the way waves on the ocean are transferred through the water
> molecules making up the waves (you physicists on the list can probably
> laugh at this statement... I'm really showing my ignorance here).

That's a hypothesis that doesn't have a lot of backing. Nor are matters
that simple.

> Anyway,
> off the top of my head, it would seem that the only way to make this
> work would be to say that EM effects drop off by the square-root of the
> inertial suppression factor. If we make that handwave, which is
> certainly a god-being-nice type to rule to make, then I'd imagine
> that we've got gravity & EM both covered. However, if anyone can
> provide a counterexample, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Alas, you've just changed to speed of light by doing this. 

Then there are thins like the fine structure constant:

u*c*e^2/2h

where
u = permeability of a vacuum
c = speed of light in a vacuum
e = charge of the electron
h = Plank's constant

Change the value of *that* and all sorts of stuff goes to hell.

Which means your changes have to be such that its value remains
unchanged. By the time you are done dinking around with that, things
have gotten *way* too complicated.

> Also, there's still the weak and strong forces to think about. Since
> weak is purportedly linked to EM, one would expect some sort of similar
> square-root drop off. As for the strong force, I have no idea. -Jim

The weak force and the electromagnetic force are different aspects of
the electro-weak force just as electric and magnetic field effects are
different aspects of the electromagnetic force (see Maxwells
equations).

The strong force and gravity (and the color force that quarks exert on
each other) may or may not be realated to the electr-weak forces in
various ways.

We can't achieve the energies required to check out the strong and
color forces, and gravity is so damned *weak* it's hard to experiment
with.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:07:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:07:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204100106.g3A16o401393@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20410.143404.7i6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> You should likewise reduce the strength of the strong and weak forces.
>
> Okay... so I guess we need to suppose that all these forces get dropped
> by the same factor.

Alas, some effects that are important to trivial things like *life*
depend on various odd *powers* (square, square rooe 3/2 power, etc) of
the strength of these forces.

>> Now, just Planck's constant to deal with :)
>
> Okay... I'm totally clueless, but:
> E=hv, where h = planck's constant and v = frequency
> (note: i have no idea what i'm taking about)
> in any case, the question i'm guessing that you're posing below is that
> if E (energy) drops, then either h or v has to drop. and we would prefer
> that neither of them drop.

Another form has Planck's constant equalling the product of the
uncertainty in the positon and the uncertainty in the momentum of a
particle.

Planck's constant is behind *all* quantum effects. and it basicly says
how "granular" the universe is. 

Changing it by *tiny* amounts would have *major* effects on the way the
universe works.

>> If you reduce the strength of EM interactions, you reduce the energy
>> levels of electrons in atoms.  The size of atoms is related to the
>> energy levels of their electrons by Planck's constant.  So if you want
>> atoms to remain the same size, you need to change Planck's constant as
>> well.
>
> Let's think about this for just a sec. What exactly determines the
> energy level of an electron in an atom?

> I've heard that the atomic nucleus is held together by the interplay
> between the strong and weak forces, the strong force keeping the
> positively charged protons together while the weak force tries to
> rip them apart.

No. The electromagnetic repulsion of all those protons in the nucleus
tries to rip it apart. The weak force does stuff like hold neutrons
together (a neutron is effectively a "bound state" odf a proton, an
electron and an anti-neutrino). 

> I suppose that since this idea of taming the quantum
> foam should reduce both forces equally, the stability of the
> nucleus would be uneffected (the effects of the strong & weak force
> reductions should cancel out).

If only it was that simple. Among other things, the strong and weak
forces *don't* oney the inverse square law *and* they have a maximum
range. This is because they use exchange particles that have mass, as
opposed to the massless exchange particles (photons and gravitons) used
by the electromagnetic and gravitational forces. 

Oh shit....

There's another way to read that equation you gave up above. 

E = h*v

E = uncertainty in energy of a system
v = time interval
h = Planck's constant.

That's *how* exchange particles work. The energy of the virtual
particle is higher the shorter the time it has to exist (or vice
versa). Changing Planck's constant messes with that too. 

> However, I'm not sure how to handle the problem of electrons, which
> you mention above. But I'll try to tackle it anyway, so what follows
> it totally off the cuff. I'm guessing that the electromagnetic force
> keeps electrons attracted to the positively charged atomic nucleus
> and repulsed by each other, hence accounting for their movements
> (of course, this probably falls apart at some level, but bear with
> me). Well, I'm just guessing here, but if their movements are determined
> by the repulsive & attractive effects of the same force (electromagnetic),
> then reducing that force should have no net effect, as reduction in
> repulsion will be perfectly offset by the reduction in attraction.
> In short, and I'm no physics major, so correct me if I'm wrong,
> once again what I would expect is that these changes cancel out,
> resulting in there being no need to change Planck's constant.

Afraid not. 

For one thing, electrons are just barely what we normally think of as
particles. They aren't little billiard balls. They are more in the
nature of fuzzyt little "clouds". The electron is most likely *here*,
but could be clear over *there*. More like a ball of fog than anything
we are familiar wuith from everyday life.

I'd need a lot of time with books (and more recent exposure to quantum
mechanics) to even begn to figure out what would happen at the atomic
and subatomic levels.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Worst Job in the world
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17953@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Robert A. Uhl
It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over
me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar.

I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

Mikey:
Here in government service we like to bitch and moan about our lot in life.
I just forwarded this on to my co-workers to remind us all we don't have it
so bad.

Thanks man. 

PS I once got fired from cotton chipping, one of the more menial jobs in
life and one where ex convicts can find gainful employment. I was forced to
hitch into town (30 klicks) and was picked up by an insane Kiwi shearer (he
looked like John English for you Oz types), whose dayglo orange combi was
circa 60's and decorated in peace stickers. He proceeded to laugh manically
and go for three animals with his vehicle that made the mistake in trying to
cross the road. 

I got dropped off early. 

The whole trip, which involved catching a lift with a friend and staying in
the worst trailer park (aka cravan park) in western civilisation, ended up
costing $80.

I was not meant for menial work. 

Ob Trav: Travellers are not meant for menial work either. That's why
invariably they end up doing something illegal. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F221lf8nFJ3VTPlu4kA0000f71e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB575BB.18754.8358A9@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 15:20, Sam D wrote:

> Tod Glen wrote:>Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 
> over 7.62x51mm
> >ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
> >is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
> >any particular caliber.
> 
> It is a tuff call.  It appears that the 5.56mm does actually make bigger 
> wounds, as long as there is sufficient tissue to penetrate, as long as the 
> velocity is above 2700 fps.  With an M16 that is like 200- yards; with the 
> M4 it is only 100-140 yards.  After that range, you are better off with the 
> bigger round.  And the 7.62x51 certainly penetrates through cover better at 
> all ranges.  But however you weigh those tradeoffs, there is no doubt that 
> you are going to have to be carrying around an extra 5-10 pounds of gear 
> with the bigger rifle.

Excuse me? How much ammo are you thinking of? For dangerous game 
hunting (the original question) 20 rounds is more than enough, and 
there's no real need for a 10 pound battle rifle. A 7.5 pound light 
sporter will do fine (and that's what my father's PH Magestic from the 
early 60's weighed with scope, etc.), and that's less weight than an 
M16A2.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:40:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:40:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D99957.382D9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410022744.027dc890@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 7:25, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/9/02 11:36 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:
> 
> > And I'm curious if the following question will produce interesting
> > results.  To the experienced hunters here, would you prefer hunting
> > dangerous game that's around 160 to 200 pounds on the hoof with .223 or
> > .308?  Or something else?
> 
> You forgot to add:  "Using ball ammunition only".
> 
> We are speaking of military weapons here, so let's get the ammo right.
> There is no question that if ammunition selection is not restricted,
> 7.62x51mm is more lethal.
> 
> Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 over 7.62x51mm
> ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
> is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
> any particular caliber.

I think that this depends a lot on the exact game. If it's leopards, 
small lions or people the 5.56 could well be better, but on thick-
skinned game (not that there's a huge amount in that size range), like 
wild boar the 7.62x51 even with ball would be a better choice IMO, 
because it has better penetration. All the wounding potential in the 
world won't help you if the bullet stops on the outside of a boar's 
shoulderblade.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 4:38 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

>> You forgot to add:  "Using ball ammunition only".
>> 
>> We are speaking of military weapons here, so let's get the ammo right.
>> There is no question that if ammunition selection is not restricted,
>> 7.62x51mm is more lethal.
>> 
>> Given that fact, I'd prefer the old 1:12 twist bbl and M193 over 7.62x51mm
>> ball (actually, I'd prefer the original 1:14 twist rate).  Of course, this
>> is predicated on the assumption that the terrain and distance doesn't favor
>> any particular caliber.
> 
> I think that this depends a lot on the exact game. If it's leopards,
> small lions or people the 5.56 could well be better, but on thick-
> skinned game (not that there's a huge amount in that size range), like
> wild boar the 7.62x51 even with ball would be a better choice IMO,
> because it has better penetration. All the wounding potential in the
> world won't help you if the bullet stops on the outside of a boar's
> shoulderblade.

I think the hint was 180-200 lbs dangerous game (meaning people)

My first choice for all around game hunting of large animals (over 150 lbs)
and using non-expanding bullets would probably be my .458 Witworth.  It is
reasonably accurate to about 200 yards with express sites ( a ghost ring
would be preferable, but not 'right').  I can load anywhere from  55 - 72
grains of 4895 and go with bullets from 300-500+ grains.  My 'plinking' load
is a 405 gn hard cast bullet in front of 62 gns of 4895.  Plenty of bang for
just about anything.  I suspect the 500 gn monolithic solids would work well
on most game too, as well as the occasional car.

Note that this is strictly a short range load.  No 600 meter head shots.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 17:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 10 16:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>

Starship Insurance - Theft and Casualty - Claims

Having dutifully obtained your Theft and Casualty insurance, and having paid
your premiums on time and in full every month, you find yourself set upon by
pirates just short of jump point.  You are careful to respond to them in a
way that will not void your policy (we'll get to that later) and they wind
up taking your ship and leaving you adrift in an escape pod.

It's time to file your theft claim, whereupon your insurer will promptly pay
you. (Hysterical laughter slowly subsides.)

Basics of filing a claim:  The claim must be filed in a timely manner.  The
insured must take steps to mitigate damages.

Timely filing of a claim simply means to report your loss to your agent or a
claims representative a soon as possible.

Mitigation of damages means a reasonable exercise of common sense and effort
to ensure that your loss doesn't get worse, and that (if possible) it will
get better.  In the event of theft, reporting the theft to law enforcement
and other authorities would be a part of mitigation.  Damage should be dealt
with immediately to prevent further damge.  If one of the power regulators
is spiking in a way that endangers the jump-drive, a smart policy-holder
will reroute power around the faulty regulator, or delay jump until a
replacement can be had.  If the policy-holder ignores the power regulator
problem, attempts jump without dealing with it, and slags his J-drive, the
insurance company will likely decide to cover the regulator but not the
J-drive.  Why?  The policy-holder took no steps to mitigate damages.

Failure to file the claim in a timely manner, as well failure to mitigate,
can both be flags for insurance fraud.  Other fraud flags could be (but
certainly wouldn't be limited to):  recent purchase of policy, recent
increase in coverage or additions of riders, key crewmembers who can't be
located, vessels recent past can't be accounted for, etc.

When a claim is filed, the insurance company assigns an adjustor.  The
adjustor's job is to "adjust" the amount paid to the policyholder based upon
the covarage of the policy and the circumstances surrounding the claim.  If
at any step in the process the adjustor can find a reason to deny the claim,
the insurance company wins, the policy-holder loses, and the adjuster gets
an "attabeing" from the company.

One of the first steps the adjustor will take is to gather all relevant
documents they can.  First, because it is readily available, would be a copy
of the policy and all riders as well as the policy-holder's premium payment
history.  If the policy-holder (hereafter p-h) missed a payment, and
coverage was not in effect at the time of loss: claim denied.

Next the adjustor would look at insurance loss report(s) filed by the p-h
(not just for this claim but for any past claims of the p-h -- the adjustor
has to look for those fraud flags.)  Adjustor will further review police and
system defense authority reports, maintenance and repair records, ship's
log, ship's officer's logs, statements taken from the ship's officers and
crew, police and defense officials, and any witnesses to the loss.

Pursuant to all this, the adjustor will use the services of one or more
field investigators, who may be employees of the insurance company, or may
be independent investigators working on a contract basis.  The investigator
will be collecting documents, interviewing and taking statements from
sophonts, examining and documenting damage to the vessel, examing and
documenting the scene of loss, and generally doing legwork for the adjustor.
(Remember, the adjustor handles more than one claim at a time.)

Processing claims where the loss takes place outside a system where an
adjustor is present will be a drawn out process.  A claims decision
involving a loss of the magnitude of a starship would probably take the
better part of a year to process, even with instantaneous communication.

Sometimes the insurance company will actually pay a claim.  If the ship was
damaged, p-h will be paid for repair of damage or replacement of systems
(minus deductible.) Note that such repair and replacement will have already
long since been done in most cases.  The average owner-operator must keep
travelling in order to remain economically viable.

If the ship suffered damage that would cost more to repai than the ship is
worth the ship will be declared a total loss. Same thing if the ship was
stolen.  Note that if the insurer pays out on a total loss, the ship (or
what's left of it) becomes the property of the insurance company.  If the
ship is recovered from the thieves or found in an interstellar chop shop,
the insurance company will be the entity entitled to have the vessel.
(Presumably salvage law would kick in after some period prescribed by
black-letter law, at which point the ship would belong to whoever recovered
it.)

More later.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Near Star List - it's growing
Message-ID: <200204110010.DUF04546@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I listen to Stardate on NPR every evening, and today they 
were talking about the stars within 4 parsecs (see the map at 
their website stardate.org).  Apparently, there are more 
stars than previously known within a "short" distance of the 
Sun.

One example is a search for nearby stars -- some of our 
closest neighbors in all the universe. 

The project is headed by Todd Henry of Georgia State 
University. Team members are searching the heavens with 
fairly small telescopes in Chile. They're aiming mainly at 
faint, cool stars known as red dwarfs. Many of our closest 
neighbors are red dwarfs. But they're so faint that not a 
single one is visible to the unaided eye. 

The astronomers are watching the stars for many months to see 
which ones move against the background of other stars -- a 
motion that reveals which stars are close by. It's like 
holding up your finger and looking at it first with one eye, 
then the other; the finger appears to move back and forth 
against the background. 

By measuring this motion, the astronomers have discovered 13 
new stars within 33 light-years of Earth. The closest of the 
bunch is just 12 light-years away, making it the 20th closest 
known star system. 

________________
When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 16:51, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I think the hint was 180-200 lbs dangerous game (meaning people)

I assumed that we were looking at choices for other dangerous game to 
see if it illuminated the dissucssion of what should be used a people 
(a very thin-skinned type of dangerous game).
 
> My first choice for all around game hunting of large animals (over
> 150 lbs) and using non-expanding bullets would probably be my .458
> Witworth.  It is reasonably accurate to about 200 yards with express
> sites ( a ghost ring would be preferable, but not 'right').  I can
> load anywhere from  55 - 72 grains of 4895 and go with bullets from
> 300-500+ grains.  My 'plinking' load is a 405 gn hard cast bullet in
> front of 62 gns of 4895.  Plenty of bang for just about anything.  I
> suspect the 500 gn monolithic solids would work well on most game
> too, as well as the occasional car. 

My first choice would probably be a .375 H&H. Much though I admire 
Weatherbys they cost too much and are generally over-powered if you're 
using solids - they'd tend to horribly over-penetrate anything but the 
heaviest game. With expansive bullets I'd drop to a .338 Winchester or 
.340 Weatherby unless in Africa, in which case the .375's would be the 
way to go, IMO. .416s and .458/.460s are good vs buffs, elephants, etc. 
but aren't long-range rounds, so you'd need a second rifle for those 
300-500 yard shots on eland, etc.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F195GoE1k8LN6FWe7Xl0000b978@hotmail.com>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

     "This is my opinion, as well.  China in the 1700s-1800s operated in 
much the same way."


Mr. Goffin,

     I don't like to stretch the Imperial China-Ziru Sirka analogy too far.  
1700 China was already behind in the technology race, despite some very 
notable and very early firsts; compasses, stern post rudders, gunpowder, 
paper, printing, etc.  They just never put it all together for a variety of 
reasons.  The Ming dynasty actually had to beg the Jesuits for cannon 
founders in the mid-1600s while they were tangling with the Manchus.  Yuo, 
West-to-East tehnology transfers were happening that early.
     The Ziru Sirka, while stagnant, is ahead of the Terrans in the tech 
race.  Sure the Terrans can catch up, if they're given the time.  I just 
can't quite understand why they were given the time.
     The Imperial China the "Southern Barbarians" began contacting in the 
1500's was in one of it's disintergration phases.  The Ming were on the way 
out, the Manchus were trying to get in, pirates and warlords abounded.  The 
periphary was unravelling, Taiwan was a pirate kingdom that the Chinese paid 
the Dutch to tackle for them, Korea either lost to the Japanese or 
independent, Tibet gone, the far west lost to various horse peoples.  The 
Ming were straining every nerve just to keep the lid on, and they failed.  
After them, the Manchu were nothing more than a foreign dynasty simply 
trying to remain in power.  They restored nothing of China's former power or 
borders, even losing more territory as their dynasty went on.
     Does any of that sound like the Ziru Sirka to you?
     When they met the Terrans, the Vilani were keeping a ZS boot on the 
necks of umpteen minor races, races and home worlds that the Vilani were 
able to keep quiet even as the Terrans racked up victory after victory.  
There is no mention of these plethora of minor races rising in revolt, all 
we hear about is their "welcoming their Terran liberators."  How were the 
Vilani able to keep all those minor races down, how were they able to play 
power politics with Vargr merc pawns, how were they able to still do all of 
that, and STILL lose to a single system polity?

     "I think the Vegans are what we in contemporary times call the Grays.  
They have been surreptitiously visiting Earth for a while to help us develop 
into a human force that can get rid of the Vilani, with whom the Vegans have 
never really gotten along."

     That's part of my take on the whole problem.  The Terran Confederation 
victory over the Ziru Sirka is more along the lines of Cortez versus the 
Aztecs; i.e lots of native allies, and most decidely not a case of "Terra 
Uber Alles."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:38:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:38:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
<snip consideration of various calibers>

I'm trying to make up my mind between the .375 and the .338.  
Since I'm in N. America, it may be the .338. 

The situations that Traveller characters find themselves in 
are rarely more than a few opponents, and most are armed 
(depending on the GM, of course) with pistols and short range 
weapons.  In one past campaign, I did rather well with a 
single-shot falling block rifle in .375 H&H.  I was playing a 
PH, and this was my "walking about" rifle.  I was infamous 
for killing three other player characters by shooting down 
their custom air raft (first shot hit the driver through the 
front, the second shot disabled the powerplant and the other 
two plummeted to their deaths).

If you also consider that Traveller gun combat is at about 
the same range as a Cape Buffalo encounter, and you're 
probably going to live for about as many shots (two, maybe 
three), then I think that whatever makes a good Cape Buffalo 
weapon might make a good Traveller combat weapon.

Let's see.  We'll make it .416 Remington, since we can still 
get Speer tungsten core solids. 

The rifle should be a 4-shot controlled-feed pre-64 
Winchester action (with fixed ejector).  Barrel length should 
be 22 inches, and we'll go with a muzzle brake.  The stock 
should be optimized for firing on your hind legs, and we'll 
put a Trijicon Reflex sight on top, with express sights just 
in case that gets broken.

A PH should be able to get two or three quick aimed shots off 
with something like this.  I haven't seen many Traveller-
style combats last more than a few combat rounds. And you'll 
only have to hit another human *once* with something like 
this.  Tod might make it a .458, though.

Get yourself a pouch that holds 20 rounds, maybe keep 40 
rounds in your pack.  More than enough for most Traveller 
adventures.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 18:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr 10 17:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDHDKAA.tml@downport.com>

Chumming is for guys not strong enough to be sternman :p

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade

>     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what
lobsters
>eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!

And just think, filters (clams, oysters, etc.) eat what settles on the
bottom after it went through the lobster or crab. Shrimp eat floaties. But
I'd still eat a lobster before I'd chow down on their landlubber cousins,
the spiders :x



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 19:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 10 18:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
In-Reply-To: <001101c1e0d7$3860c120$a8fb883e@fg>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410180651.009f12d0@mindspring.com>

At 10:32 PM 4/10/02 +0100, you wrote:
>The BBC have reported on what the nattily dressed US soldier will be wearing
>on tomorrow's battlefield.  It is a bit worrying though that uniforms will
>be "nearly invisible" (4th para).  Where's the Sarge going to sew his
>stripes?

Considering the stripes worn on the BDU are barely visible now, I don't 
think it is that big of a deal.

I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet 
cover.  In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 19:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 18:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410182447.0390c460@mail.qrc.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410151914.01de4500@pop.wizard.net>
 <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
 <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020410205024.00a6ead0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 06:25 PM 4/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>At 03:37 PM 4/10/2002, laning wrote:
>>Also, I imagine that TL 14 sensors, based in space, are much better at 
>>detecting and analyzing whether fuel will be present in the destination
>
>Classic Traveller allowed a starship to determine if gas giants were 
>present in another star system from a 1 parsec range.

I would suggest looking at Adventure 4(?) Leviathan and AM4: Zhodani for 
information on explorations.  Another good website would be 
http://www.securityleak.net/slm/index.html and check out Security Leak #5 
for a detailed look at the Zhodani Core Expeditions.

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
References: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <fos9busmdg2u2fv6oem9hlloq0u375f62e@4ax.com>

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 20:12:13 +0000, "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

>From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
>
>     "It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all =
over=20
>me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
>clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
>from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
>awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar."
>
>Mr. Uhl,
>
>     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what =
lobsters=20
>eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!

We seem to be in the midst of "onedownsmanship" here, with each
account somehow managing to add to the general disgusting flavor of
the thread.

Unless all and sundry truly wish to see an avalanche of reports of
keyboard kills due to the ever rising gorge of the list readers, I
sincerely hope that our talented TML writers bend their very effective
and evocative writing skills to subjects less nauseating.

I do, however, appreciate those descriptions we've seen thus far.  I
pity of character (either literary or RPG) who earns the need to fill
similar roles.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
Message-ID: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).  
But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You 
know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or 
perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.

Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I 
need a bit of camp now and then.
________________
When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:38:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Stasica)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:38:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDHDKAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4F721.DEF69043@sympatico.ca>

Swordy wrote:

> Chumming is for guys not strong enough to be sternman :p
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
>
> >     Blecch.  Mine was baiting lobster traps.  If you ever saw what
> lobsters
> >eat, you wouldn't be so eager to order them!

The job I truly hated, regularly cleaning backed up greased traps in a Burger
King.

A friend job that I fear to visualize:

Giving enemas to elephants, with a 27 pound suppository in my right hand (
gloved to the neck) and a hose in my left hand.  A broom and a shovel for the
resultant mess, nearby.

Although, I would take that over being the individual at a dog / cat food
company who does the taste testing to ensure the labels are correct.

OR

The number one job I do not want to know about or visualize:

The person at a thermometer company who personally tests every rectal
thermometer to meet the print on the packages that reads: "Every one of our
product personally tested to ensure quality."

Michael



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 20:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cory Davis)
Date: Wed Apr 10 19:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>

Hi all

just a quick comment, I have been reading M16 vs everything else topic with 
interest and big game hunting rifles just came up, and I realised in all 
the descriptions of peoples campaigns, its all gauss rifles and FGMPs

I just like to say in our games (GT) the weapon of choice were always Gauss 
- LAG (basically, a LEMG-20 with a shorter barrel, I made it up 6 months 
before Ground Forces came out) as with a wide range of ammo it can do all 
sorts of things

we have used fletchettes for unarmoured targets, the APFSDSHD will 
penetrate about 300DR and once we used baton rounds when we had a job as 
repo men (they didn't mark the ship up too much). the best thing about them 
was after a firefight they don't leave many holes, in fact even if fighting 
opponents in battledress on board a ship, afterwards the ship is usually 
still useable, I say usually once we accidently broke the powerplant

I've always thought that due to the high level of personal armour in 
traveller, at high TLs weapons would be designed for penetration rather 
than ROF or explosive fragmentation

oh well back to the discussion of the pros and cons of M16s and big game rifles

(our other game is a pulp horror game and the elephant gun is a staple)

cheers

Cory


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:09:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:09:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Standard Operating Procedures, or Tips
In-Reply-To: <200203310432.DAH01551@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB4C5A5.15107.6D8006@localhost>

Hi John,

A little late (as usual, I'm many days behind in reading the 
TML), but I'd like to see a copy of this as well (or let me know
if you've posted it somewhere and I'll get it there).

thanks!

Rob D.

On 30 Mar 2002 at 23:32, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Just finished going through what will be a rather long 
> document for patrolling, boarding, etc., for military units 
> in Traveller.  Just a guide, mind you.  Your mileage may 
> differ.
> 
> But..  I need more input.  I've just moved a current day 
> document a fair number of years into the future (out to TL10, 
> so far), and I would like to take it a bit further, say TL12.
> 
> I am interested in anyone's input concerning what might be 
> standard operating procedure (instructions to individual 
> soldiers, teams, and platoons).  Some of the detail I have is 
> down to the items to carry.
> 
> I am especially interested in what might be SOP in regards to 
> weapons, employment of specific weapons (such as, "always use 
> the plasma gun to break contact").
> 
> I am nearly finished the first draft, and I would be willing 
> to send it to whoever is interested.  It's nearly fifty pages 
> so far.
> ________________
> Do you think my being stronger and
> faster has anything to do with my
> muscles in this place?...Do you think
> that's air that you are breathing?
> 

--
Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com
'Calvin, we will not have an anatomically correct snowman!'




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:10:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:10:48 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Sci Fi Books that are Ob Trav
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1791D@r1clex01.cbr.defe
 nce.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410230528.01ae0498@192.168.0.1>

At 01:59 PM 4/8/2002 +1000, Hughes, Michael wrote:
>I know I am a tad late in this thread but it occurred to be the other day
>that a very Ob Trav type series of books were the Amtrak Wars by Patrick
>Tilley. Hi Tech underground civilisation fighting mad max esq mutated
>barbarians. The descriptions of the underground settlements seem very trav,
>monorails, life support levels, you name it.
>
>I'm re-reading them now. I liked them as a teenager and, ten years later,
>they're still pretty good.
>
>In fact it would make a great GURPS sourcebook. Doug Berry come on down.

For more examples of Traveller, and Traveller like fiction, take a look at:
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/travfic.html>


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:13:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:13:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <001401c1e073$0d066bb0$6401a8c0@GOCA> <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBEEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <20020411131133.A6552@freeman.little-possums.net>

Antony Farrell wrote:
> Contrary to popular opinion there are stars in the gaps between the
> arms, the spirals themselves being defined by bright stars. But as
> to how many stars and whether fuel sources could be found there?

There should be quite a few red and brown dwarfs in there, just fewer
bright stars.  The actual stellar density isn't a lot lower, as far as
I've heard.  On top of that, there's bound to be a whole bunch of
sub-planetary objects that should make excellent fuel sources.


> Assuming the ships were built to TL14 or 15 standard this means jump
> 5 or 6 maximum, and it is likely that in the "gaps" fuel sources may
> be further apart than this.

I doubt it.  Red dwarf stars aren't expected to be much less numerous
than in the arms, which means about 2 parsecs should get you from one
to the next.  They would have to be 30 times sparser to have a
moderate chance of reaching a dead-end, even if the ships only carry
one jump worth of fuel.  More likely they can carry enough for two
5-parsec jumps (or five 3-parsec ones) by carrying methane, ammonia,
and/or water instead of pure liquid hydrogen.  They can refine it
between jumps if they reach an area without hydrogen.  If the ships
can reduce volume by collapsing empty tanks, they can get even
further on a full load of fuel.

With good TL 12 sensors (e.g. dedicated sensor platforms which extend
after jump), they should be able to spot gas giants from tens of
parsecs away without any trouble.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 21:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 20:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Perseus arm expeditions
In-Reply-To: <200204101359.DTL04671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204101359.DTL04671@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020411132024.B6552@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> This backup power generation is probably nuclear fission, which
> allows the ship to potentially go without hydrogen (albeit without
> jumping anywhere) for some time.

I doubt it.  At Traveller tech levels, nuclear fusion is far more
efficient.  It is also far easier to collect fuel :)


> You may also remember Annic Nova.

I remember the rather ... vigorous ... discussion over it :/


> So let's consider a ship with a nuclear fission base 
> powerplant (to keep everyone nice and warm, and provide a 
> little extra power to charge jump accumulators a la Annic 
> Nova).

If you do that, you've just invented a starship that doesn't need jump
fuel at all, with all the strategic implications that follow.


> There might even be additional closed-cycle hydrogen/oxygen 
> fuel cells.

Why?  The chemical energy stored in 100 tons of fuel cells is about
that found in 1 kilogram of fusion fuel.  You're better off ditching
the fuel cells and putting in extra LHyd tankage.  Better still, put
in water tanks and run the stuff through your fuel processor.  Breathe
some of the waste oxygen and dump the rest.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <20020411004005.5784B27A85@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020410205654.00a53ce0@mailhost.efn.org>

>     When they met the Terrans, the Vilani were keeping a ZS boot on the
>necks of umpteen minor races, races and home worlds that the Vilani were
>able to keep quiet even as the Terrans racked up victory after victory.
>There is no mention of these plethora of minor races rising in revolt, all
>we hear about is their "welcoming their Terran liberators."

Riiiiiight.  And the United States singlehandedly beat Hitler and liberated 
Europe.  Just ask any contemporary 'Merkun.  (Okay, maybe the Limeys helped 
us out some, but not those dirty Reds, no sir.  And definitely not the 
French - all they know how to do is surrender.  What?  The Chinese?  Were 
they *in* WW2?)


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <20020410122225.B21755@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020411041811.1A229279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/10/02 at 12:22 PM,  "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> said:

>It was a truly awful job.  Little bits of chicken would get all over
>me; the horrid smell of cider vinegar and garlic would permeate my
>clothing and my nasal passages; my hands would be near frozen through
>from handling all the chickens.  Throughout out it all there was the
>awful smell of chicken blood, flavouring, garlic and cider vinegar.

>I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

That sounds like K'kree hell. Only, they'd then have to *eat* their
work. <g>

It also reminds me of Regina UpPort's famous "Stuff on a Stick"
kiosk...that's where all the left over bits end up.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <no.id> from "John T. Kwon" at Apr 10, 2002 10:36:32 PM
Message-ID: <200204110433.g3B4Xpo25315@shell1.aracnet.com>

> Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).  
> But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You 
> know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or 
> perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.

I've always thought that the 2nd Series of 'Tom Swift' books would make for
some interesting background for a game.  The 1st series would probably make
good background for a 'Steam Punk' game.  Unfortunatly I've never gotten
ahold of any of the 'Tom Corbett' books.
 
> Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I 
> need a bit of camp now and then.

I picked up a copy a few years ago when it was reprinted, but have never
played it.  There is also GURPS: Lensman.

			Zane

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410023924.027e4ad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020411045414.13A9B279F9@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/10/02 at 02:42 AM,  laning <laning@wizard.net> said:

>At 10:46 AM 4/10/02 +1000, Mikey (Michael Hughes) wrote: >PBEM:
>>
>>I am thinking about running a PBEM D&D game for a friend. Does anyone know
>>of a How To website out there for running PBEM RPG sessions?

>I was thinking there's a need for the same thing.  Or at least will
>soon be  a need.  Perhaps interested parties should form a new
>mailing list, and  person or persons on that list be appointed to
>cull together an FAQ for WWW  posting?

http://www.pbem.com/  
    (how too's, mailing list server, ads for players and games,
utilities)

    http://www.pbem.com/howto/harrigan.html
        ("Running a Successful PBeM Campaign")

    http://www.pbem.com/howto/argosy.txt
        ("An Argosy of PBEM Advice", also accessable through pbem.com)

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/1999/11/19/text_gaming/index.html
    ("Word Games" from _Salon Magazine_, compares PBEM to other forms)

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/5835/soapbox.html
    ("PBEM Advice")

http://phoenyx.net/pbemlist.html
    (Phoenyx.net: list server, player and game ads, discussion lists)

http://shatteredworld.8m.com/advice.html
    ("Running Your Own PBEM": links to several articles)

http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Role-Playing/RPG.html
    ("What is roleplaying?")

And once you finish reading all that...<g>...you can come lurk in one,
or more, of my PBEM roleplaying games.  


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 22:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 21:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:12:13PM +0000
References: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020410225606.A23319@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:12:13PM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>
> The lobsterman removes and measures the damn things while you 
> fish out the used purse and put to fresh on it it's place.

For some value of `fresh'...

:-)

What a nasty sounding concoction.  OTOH, it almost sounds like the
_proper_ way to make Roman fish sauce.  For that, one gets a good mess
of fish and cleans them, then puts a layer of salt at the bottom of a
barrel.  Alternate layers of fish and salt up to the top, covering
over with a good bit of salt.  Store in the right conditions and a
kind of fermentation takes place in which the muscles dissolve and the
bones and scales break apart.  Eventually one opens the barrel and
drains off the liquid, leaving behind a gritty dregs.  The liquid is,
essentially, salty fish water.

Not nearly as disgusting as it sounds, I'm told.  Couldn't get me to
try it, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Taliban representative was explaining the good the Taliban had done
for the country.  He started his statement with `We have disarmed the
people...'                          --CNN special: Inside Afghanistan

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:12:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:12:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20410.144847.1G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> from "Leonard Erickson" at Apr 10, 2002 02:48:47 PM
Message-ID: <200204110412.g3B4CU601389@localhost.uia.net>

Leonard writes:
> The problem is, different things depend on *different* ratios. 
> 
> Some depend on things like the charge to mass ratio of particles.
> Others depend on things like the ratios of the *squares* of of things.
> And some are things like square roots. Or weirder ratios. 
> 
> You *can't* make them all match. 

Even if all four fundamental forces & inertia (i.e. apparent
mass) drop simultaneously by the same factor? Wouldn't then
the ratios between these values (and those other values based
on them) all stay the same? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020411083544.A5842@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 11, 2002 08:35:44 AM
Message-ID: <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>

> Apart from that, your goal is to have the behaviour of atoms (and more
> complex systems) behave in the same way as before inertial
> suppression, correct?  This requires more than just changing the
> strength of forces.

The goal was to theoretically examine inertial suppression as a
means for making high accelleration (say anywhere from 50g to 1000g)
doable for a STL-based RPG, so that we'd be able to have speedy
interstellar travel from a subjective viewpoint (a few days to a few
weeks from the viewpoint of the crew, although it would be years
or even decades from the viewpoint of those not taking the trip).

In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
physics as we know it, and both of you know a lot more about
physics than I do, so it seems that I'm going to have to relent
and give up on this idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes
infeasible, and we're left with FTL (which has already been done
to death). Ah well... -Jim

> > To do so, I think we really need to look at the most simple
> > problems, involving only a single atom or a pair of atoms.
> 
> OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
> the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
> a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
> strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
> hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
> when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
> decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
> just one simple example.

Most of this flies over my head, but I'll see if I can figure it out and
then get back to ya later... -Jim
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>

Greetings!

In many of the games I've run or played in, the weapon of choice for short 
range combat is invariably a 10-gauge drum fed automatic shotgun (modeled 
after the Berlinetta (sp?) that some folks used to call the "vroom broom" 
or "street sweeper"). There are two things that we found strike terror in 
the hearts of the NPCs (and sometimes other players):

         1) The sound of a shotgun action being worked
         2) The realization that somebody might think shooting white 
phosphorus rounds looked like a good idea

The second point didn't occur until after I had unloaded several rounds 
into a building of hostiles.  It seems that using staggered loads of 
different types (HEAP, HE, WP, Mercury Fulminate, KEAP, and Flechettes) had 
never occurred to anybody else in the game and the damage to the hostiles 
was sort of mind boggling for them.  :-)

Of course we could also talk about the 90cm grenade launcher that turns 
people into portable artillery units.........

I love things that go *BOOM*!   ;-)

Best regards,

Charles

At 12:37 PM 4/11/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Hi all
>
>just a quick comment, I have been reading M16 vs everything else topic 
>with interest and big game hunting rifles just came up, and I realised in 
>all the descriptions of peoples campaigns, its all gauss rifles and FGMPs
>
>I just like to say in our games (GT) the weapon of choice were always 
>Gauss - LAG (basically, a LEMG-20 with a shorter barrel, I made it up 6 
>months before Ground Forces came out) as with a wide range of ammo it can 
>do all sorts of things
>
>we have used fletchettes for unarmoured targets, the APFSDSHD will 
>penetrate about 300DR and once we used baton rounds when we had a job as 
>repo men (they didn't mark the ship up too much). the best thing about 
>them was after a firefight they don't leave many holes, in fact even if 
>fighting opponents in battledress on board a ship, afterwards the ship is 
>usually still useable, I say usually once we accidently broke the powerplant
>
>I've always thought that due to the high level of personal armour in 
>traveller, at high TLs weapons would be designed for penetration rather 
>than ROF or explosive fragmentation
>
>oh well back to the discussion of the pros and cons of M16s and big game 
>rifles
>
>(our other game is a pulp horror game and the elephant gun is a staple)
>
>cheers
>
>Cory
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411013014.029c3e10@pop.wizard.net>

At 04:51 PM 4/10/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I think the hint was 180-200 lbs dangerous game (meaning people)

Precisamundo.  The idea is what you are shooting at will and can gladly 
kill you if you give it the chance.  Different from trying to avoid chasing 
your deer while it runs across half the county before bleeding to death.


>My 'plinking' load
>is a 405 gn hard cast bullet in front of 62 gns of 4895.

LOL, that's some pretty serious plinking.  :->


>Plenty of bang for
>just about anything.  I suspect the 500 gn monolithic solids would work well
>on most game too, as well as the occasional car.

Always handy when your daughter gets old enough to date teenaged boys in 
hot rods.

>Note that this is strictly a short range load.  No 600 meter head shots.

Understood.

--Laning





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:32:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:32:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410222548.02170a50@mail.verizon.net>

Oh boy do I remember it, and somewhere I have the rules packed away.

In fact, I was having a discussion this afternoon with a coworker about 
whether anybody would ever have the testicular fortitude to make a series 
of movies based on the Lensman or Family D'Alembert series. The Japanese 
did an animated version of the Lensman series in the 80s, but we're pretty 
well convinced that in this politically correct time that either the 
studios would edit the jingoism right out of the movie or just say no.

Of course, somewhere I still have notes on a Lensman campaign from a few 
years ago.........

Then again, I think a fun game would be set in Harrison's Stainless Steel 
Rat universe (in fact, I've played in that setting several times).

An interesting game might be one that is either based on Asimov's 
Foundation series, Robot series, or just on "The Caves of Steel".

Best regards,

Charles



At 10:36 PM 4/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).
>But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You
>know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or
>perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.
>
>Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I
>need a bit of camp now and then.
>________________
>When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, 
>they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often 
>use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters 
>of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes 
>over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. 
>Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think 
>most would consider truly lamentable.
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F148K7S8MyBuN6QXhY00000aa29@hotmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn writes:

>Excuse me? How much ammo are you thinking of? For dangerous game
>hunting (the original question) 20 rounds is more than enough, and
>there's no real need for a 10 pound battle rifle. A 7.5 pound light
>sporter will do fine (and that's what my father's PH Magestic from the
>early 60's weighed with scope, etc.), and that's less weight than an
>M16A2.

I interpreted the original question as inquiring about stopping power, using 
a theoretical human sized dangerous animal to gain insight into what caliber 
would be appropriate for stopping a dangerous human ("And I'm curious if the 
following question will produce interesting results").  If you were really 
interested in shooting dangerous game, and not the analogy, of course a 
sporter rifle and a less ammo would be appropriate.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:36:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:36:23 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>; from res0i3sf@verizon.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:25:21PM -0700
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au> <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20020410233434.B23469@4dv.net>

I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
inexpensive ammunition.  There are all sorts of nice & nifty rifles,
and I realise that the ammunition's not going to be cheap--but I'm
really not up to paying 50c a round unless I really, really have to.

Thanks much!

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their
pockets for new vocabulary.                     --James D. Nicoll

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
References: <B8DA1E0A.39449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <3CB575BB.14279.8357DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411013453.029c0450@pop.wizard.net>

Rupert Boleyn says:

>My first choice would probably be a .375 H&H. Much though I admire
>Weatherbys they cost too much and are generally over-powered if you're
>using solids - they'd tend to horribly over-penetrate anything but the
>heaviest game. With expansive bullets I'd drop to a .338 Winchester or
>.340 Weatherby unless in Africa, in which case the .375's would be the
>way to go, IMO. .416s and .458/.460s are good vs buffs, elephants, etc.
>but aren't long-range rounds, so you'd need a second rifle for those
>300-500 yard shots on eland, etc.

Those are the same kinds of conclusions I made from studying books about 
this kind of stuff about 20 years ago.

People who are liking lighter rounds are also exceptionally skilled shots 
and I think factoring in their ability at shot placement more than I myself 
would be comfortable with.  Heard way too many stories from excellent shots 
who lost deer that they good pretty good hits on using .30-'06.  I'm not 
saying they won't get their one-shot kills with lighter rounds.  Just that 
I'd rather not rely on that kind of thing if it were me.

Some of the recent posts on the topic to the TML are modifying my opinions, 
but only somewhat.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 10 23:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 22:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411014019.028f40d0@pop.wizard.net>

John T Kwon:
<<<snip>>>
>The situations that Traveller characters find themselves in
>are rarely more than a few opponents, and most are armed
>(depending on the GM, of course) with pistols and short range
>weapons.

Very much depends on the referee as well as the players.  I let them get 
into whichever kind of mischief they choose for themselves.  If tick off 
the Mafia or the city police, they have to deal with that and if they tick 
off the banditos in the Sierra Madre while mining gold they have to deal 
with that.  Or maybe they're dropped by the OSS deep into Burma and have to 
hook up with a stone age tribe to conduct guerilla warfare against the 
Japanese.  (I recommend reading a book called 'The Blue Eyed Shan' btw, for 
people interested in this kind of thing.)

<<<more snippage>>>

What is a PH?

My own characters in other Traveller games have often preferred gauss 
rifles, light machineguns, assault rifles, submachineguns, and blade 
weapons, or even bare hands.  As well as grenade launchers, LAGs, shotguns, 
laser carbines or rifles, FGMPs or PGMPs, and an assortment of hand 
grenades.  I try to have the character own and be familiar with all that 
kind of stuff, and then try to have them take the ones that are best for 
the tactical situation and terrain the character is expecting to be 
in.  Pistols and big game rifles have never been big on my list for my 
characters, even though I've tried to make characters who had those are 
their fortes.

In my most recent gun fight in a "Traveller" game, I carried a 
submachinegun, grenades, and great armor as five of us invaded the local 
despot's palace on an impoverished TL 5 to 6 world.  I didn't bother with 
an edged weapon since the character was awesome at unarmed combat and 
improvised weapons.  Left me more weight allowance for ammo.  Our other big 
gun carried a light machinegun.  He didn't make it.  Wasn't wearing enough 
armor, IMHO.  It's a beer and pretzels referee.

That was face to face Traveller gunfights.  Tod Glenn has been putting my 
character through some hoops in his PBEM game, more recently.  He only has 
Rifle-1 for firearms skills, the rest of his combat skills are for 
melee.  He used a battered carbine at 50 meters to kill a very corrupt cop 
who was sitting in a parked car.  It seemed fair at the time.  <EG>  And 
we're nearing the end of a basically dense jungle patrolling combat between 
an enemy equipped to just shy of battle dress (carrying a lot of the 
nastiest weaponry and gizmos Tod has posted on travellercentral.com) and 
the player characters, equipped to a motley standard of high tech combat 
gear.  I used my high-tech bullpup-style assault rifle with special ammo 
(alternating HVAPFSDS long rod penetrator and HE) and got two of them so 
far.  But in about ten minutes, all the PCs are going to get wiped out by 
nerve gas _plus_ EMP weapons conveniently proposed here on the TML.  Guess 
the Evil GM couldn't wait to try out his new toy on some players.  :->

Don't worry kids.  Come back next Sunday matinee for the next exciting 
installment of 'How Will the PCs Escape the Cliffhanger?'.  Your brave 
heroes are bound to come up with something to escape the elaborate death 
trap.  Probably.  LOL.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F97SgeR4UIS42NXHwGr0001bbad@hotmail.com>

Robert A. Uhl:

>I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
>general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
>to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
>inexpensive ammunition.  There are all sorts of nice & nifty rifles,
>and I realise that the ammunition's not going to be cheap--but I'm
>really not up to paying 50c a round unless I really, really have to.

I think you will have a hard time finding a rifle that is adequate for elk 
that is going to cost less than $0.50 per round.  I'd get a 30-06, but 
anything .270 caliber and above would probably be adequate.

As far as rifles, Savages are good and cheap.  Ugly though.  To be honest, 
there is not much difference between the bottom of the line Savage, Ruger, 
Winchester or Remington.  The nice thing about the latter two is that, if 
you ever decide to do so, you can upgrade the rifle easily.  All 4 brands 
will do the job and last several generations, and they all get pretty good 
accuracy out of the box.  Expect to spend at least $3-400 or so, which might 
include a cheap scope.  Check Wal-Mart.  Get a synthetic stock.  These 
rifles are so cheap, that it might be hard to find a used one for less.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020411083544.A5842@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020411160312.A6708@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
> both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
> physics as we know it,

That it does.  :)

I've worked out a set of variations on all the fundamental constants
that works.  However, upon doing the equations it just works out
equivalent to measuring things in grams instead of kilograms. :/

There was no *real* difference at all, including interaction with the
outside world.  Oh well :(



> so it seems that I'm going to have to relent and give up on this
> idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes infeasible, and we're left
> with FTL (which has already been done to death).

Almost all forms of FTL violate physics as we know it, too.  Don't
take my insistence that inertia suppression doesn't work with known
physics and chemistry to mean that I'd choke and barf if I saw it in a
game.  I quite enjoyed the "Lensman" series, after all :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411023119.028f5a00@pop.wizard.net>

John T Kwon:
>Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I
>need a bit of camp now and then.

A few parts of it seemed to have been photocopied straight from Traveller.

It was aptly named.  I had some very good times in the one Space Opera game 
I played in.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:31:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Hagler)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:31:24 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <20020410233434.B23469@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B8DA7B5A.46DE8%khagler@orange-road.com>

on 4/10/2002 10:34 PM, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
> general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
> to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
> inexpensive ammunition.

If you've got lots of money for the rifle, the Steyr Scout in .308 is good.
It's $2800 new, though. I'm saving up for one.  :-)

<http://www.steyrscout.org/>
-- 
                              Ken Hagler

|          ICQ#: 34591293         |   For PGP key send mail with  |
|   http://www.orange-road.com/   |    subject "Send PGP Key".    |
|   And tho' we are not now that strength which in old days       |
|   Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are --Tennyson  |


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018477349.495.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155047.01de3120@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411023756.028f5390@pop.wizard.net>

At 03:22 PM 4/10/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Actually, no, the drug could easily be responsible.  Much of the reason for
>people falling down when shot is that they know they ought to, and drugs can
>dull the pain response and/or make you too stupid to realize you've been shot.
>
>The fact that he stood there are got shot several times by an M60 may suggest
>why the use of combat drugs is discouraged.  People who are heavily 
>drugged are
>not usually known for their good tactics.

I'm not going to agree with you, except for the part about drugs and 
tactics.  It seems to me that the less personal familiarity people have 
with drugs, and the more they hate the class of people who they feel use 
drugs, the more willing they are to ascribe superhuman abilities to drug 
users who are shot.  We're each entitled to our separate opinions.

I'm most inclined to believe that the guy being repeatedly hit with M-60 
machinegun bursts was some kind of weird fluke regardless of drug 
use.  Otherwise, such an incident would be so routine that it would not 
have been noted as unusual in the book.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411024705.01dc26f0@pop.wizard.net>

Charles McKnight:
>In many of the games I've run or played in, the weapon of choice for short 
>range combat is invariably a 10-gauge drum fed automatic shotgun (modeled 
>after the Berlinetta (sp?) that some folks used to call the "vroom broom" 
>or "street sweeper"). There are two things that we found strike terror in 
>the hearts of the NPCs (and sometimes other players):
>
>         1) The sound of a shotgun action being worked
>         2) The realization that somebody might think shooting white 
> phosphorus rounds looked like a good idea
>
>The second point didn't occur until after I had unloaded several rounds 
>into a building of hostiles.  It seems that using staggered loads of 
>different types (HEAP, HE, WP, Mercury Fulminate, KEAP, and Flechettes) 
>had never occurred to anybody else in the game and the damage to the 
>hostiles was sort of mind boggling for them.  :-)
>
>Of course we could also talk about the 90cm grenade launcher that turns 
>people into portable artillery units.........

:::wipes a tear from the corner of one eye:::

"Son, you make me proud."

Warms my cockles, that does.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <20020411045414.13A9B279F9@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410023924.027e4ad0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411024937.01dc7010@pop.wizard.net>

Wow, hadn't realized that 'Salon' had already visited the PBEM world.

Thanks for the good URLs.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410222548.02170a50@mail.verizon.net>
References: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411025215.029cb0e0@pop.wizard.net>

Charles McKnight:
>Then again, I think a fun game would be set in Harrison's Stainless Steel 
>Rat universe (in fact, I've played in that setting several times).

I'm for it!!!

Get Spielberg to executive produce it.  He's a lover of pulp SF.  Then 
you'll have money.  But don't let near the script or the director.  He 
pasteurizes everything into pablum.

And don't forget voice overs of Slippery Jim's interior monologue.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 00:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Apr 10 23:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
Message-ID: <memo.437377@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410180651.009f12d0@mindspring.com>
When in the British army, I got bawled out for not wearing my stripes on 
combat clothing (they were correctly displayed on other uniforms). I 
pointed out that in the field: -

a. I didn't want the enemy to know what rank I was.
b. My own people knew me already.

I then added some removable stripes, which only went on when there was an 
officer around :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.
Formerly Sergeant, 22nd (Cheshire) Regiment.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 01:01:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 00:01:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <memo.437376@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020411041811.1A229279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
>It also reminds me of Regina UpPort's famous "Stuff on a Stick"
>kiosk...that's where all the left over bits end up.

Don't say that, my character in Mole's PBeM just had his supper there :-(

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 01:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Apr 11 00:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411115818.01e6d008@mail.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020411024231.00967100@minn.net>

At 12:37 PM 4/11/2002 +1000, Cory wrote:

>I've always thought that due to the high level of personal armour in 
>traveller, at high TLs weapons would be designed for penetration rather 
>than ROF or explosive fragmentation
>
>oh well back to the discussion of the pros and cons of M16s and big game
rifles

Back when I was involved in the patriot movement (I posted the ASCII text
of the first issue of THE RESISTER on usenet) I bought a STG 58 (Austrian
FAL) parts kit and had a gunsmith rebuild it on a semi-auto D.S. Arms
reciever. I also bought 25 magazines, 4000+ rounds of British surplus
ammunition and a ELCAN optical sight for it. 

My MTF transexual landlady asked me if the glowing green triangle in the
ELCAN reticle was for shooting gay martians. When I showed my rifle to the
fellow who edited THE RESISTER he moved the selector switch to what was the
full-auto postion and gave me the look of child expecting a REALLY NEAT
Christmas present.

"NO NO NO N0, Steve," I said, "it doesn't do that, I tried it already."


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 01:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 00:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Imperial OpSix Force
In-Reply-To: <20020410225606.A23319@4dv.net>
References: <F784kDn9cvKluevz1760000e655@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:12:13PM +0000
Message-ID: <3CB4F99B.6983.2E9659D@localhost>

It=92s a hot day as the press core sits on the open benches in front of a 
small stage adorn with several strange looking devices.  They could only 
assume they are weapons since this is a press conference of the Imperial 
Marine training center.  A lone marine petty officer steps forward. 

=93This hour you will be introduced to our newest training technique the 
OpSix force formally called the Starfish Regiment.  This united is 
designed to represent the Hiver federation.   All the troops are not only 
versed in the weapons, tactics and techniques of the Hivers, but also to 
insure the most realistic training they are all experts in the use of the 
Mark II mock Hiver Environmental Suit.=94

At this moment a shirk comes up from the back of the press core as four 
strange creatures appear armed and looking deadly.  Another appears on 
stage and with its many arms [wiggle] [wave wave] [flagellate] [wave 
point flail].


=93Its ok its just members of the OpSix force.  That was just a simple 
demonstration of how realistic the suits are and now Lt. Sherow will take 
over.  A woman seems to unfold herself from the suit.  

=93What I did when I got on stage was give you our Motto.  Experts at 
Retreating=85 That=92s just what we want you to think.  Now I will continu=
e 
explain how this force works.=94

The dog and pony show drags on


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410222548.02170a50@mail.verizon.net>
References: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <v04020a15b8dad9a13fa9@[192.168.1.5]>

>In fact, I was having a discussion this afternoon with a coworker about
>whether anybody would ever have the testicular fortitude to make a series
>of movies based on the Lensman or Family D'Alembert series. The Japanese
>did an animated version of the Lensman series in the 80s, but we're pretty

Have you seen it?  I saw it back in '93, as I remember it was a lot more
like Star Wars rather than the Lensman series.  Still, I enjoyed it, and
wouldn't mind getting a copy of it on DVD.

>well convinced that in this politically correct time that either the
>studios would edit the jingoism right out of the movie or just say no.

I'm scared to think what a mess a studio would make out of it!

			Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|          PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum.         |
|                http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/               |

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F217LltyKF5Q6JVW8s20001d6e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20411.003056.1J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Mr. Erickson,
>
>      Yes, as your other posts illustrated, a planet is a VERY BIG place!  
> Still, the Ziru Sirka should have settled Terra's hash early in the 
> conflict, especially after their visit to the Sol system.
>
> In another bout of hyperbole, I posted, "... the Ziro Sirka would have, 
> could have, and should have nuked Terra 'til it glowed."
>
>      "Nope. That'd require completely unreasonable numbers of warheads.
> Millions, hundreds of millions."
>
>      But of course.  Would you care to hazard a guess just what sort of 
> firepower it would have taken for the ZS to remove Terra as a threat?  How 
> many warheads, kinetic strikes, spinal mount hits, and plain old iron bombs 
> would it have taken "de-industrialize" Terra?

Probably more than was practical. Especially given that humans were
pretty well spread out in the solar system as well. 

Exact figures would require knowing a lot more about what was where and
how it was defended. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:18:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:18:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEGGCGAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20411.002719.0T1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> >
>> >A material used in knife handles, as well as having some other uses.  The
>> >bone from a walrus penis.  See
>> >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2069/oosik.html
>>
> So when I tell my girlfriend that I've got a "Boner",
> I'm really speaking Eskimo?

Nope. Humans are one of the mammals that *don't* have a penis bone. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:20:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:20:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410025314.02b56df0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20411.003332.4n3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I have too vague an image of how canonical nuclear dampers will precisely 
> behave to really describe all how they will help, and what will be beyond 
> their help.  It probably varies quite a bit from one referee's TU to 
> another's.  I'd guess some referees only have them work if they're focused 
> on ground zero at the time of the explosion, while others let you do 
> whatever kind of prevention and clean up sounds theoretically within the 
> limits of such a technology.

Stopping a bomb from going off requires pretty good focus. Accelerating
decay doesn't and (as I recall) is well within the abilities of the
dampers as described in official source materials.

I tend to consider them *less* useful than the original descriptions,
simply because that decay energy has to go *somewhere*. It won't just
disappear. Thus my comments about heat limiting the speed of cleanup.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:21:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:21:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409223004.02132f28@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <20411.003635.3k3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Which reminds me. Some day I need to sit down and try to figure out what 
>>would be required to produce a "burned off" world such as appears in some 
>>of Norton's books.
>
> While I'm not familiar with Norton's "burned off" worlds (I don't tend to 
> read Norton), the easiest way to completely clobber a planet with Traveller 
> technology is to drop a few big rocks on it.  With Traveller maneuver 
> drives, it should be relatively easy to nudge a number of asteroids in the 
> 100,000dton or bigger class into an intercept trajectory with a planet, and 
> that should be all that's needed.

Norton's examples are basicly worlds that got the entire surface
slagged. 

A few didn't quite get it that bad. And most were done with "dirty"
weapons. 

On Terra much of North Ammerica is a lifeless wasteland that is still
too radioactive to enter safely centuries later. Again, lots of
"radioactive glass" surface. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 02:23:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 01:23:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <002101c1e027$4452ada0$3cb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <20411.004119.4s9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> You seem to be fairly consistently a couple of days behind on the
> list, BTW.  Are you just behind, or is it something to do with the
> exotic 19th Century computers you use?

I was sick, and I'm still trying to catch up. 

And sorry, but the computers I use aren't *that* old. Well, the abaci,
are, but they aren't used for email.

This box isn't all that old. AMD K6-2/500 cpu, 320 meg of RAMN, etc. It
just so happens that it's running OS/2 and the mail software is running
in a DOS window.

Viruses don't have a chance. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20020409202229.A19114@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAAEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Robert A. Uhl wrote :
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:54:19AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> >
> > Shakepear didn't have any copyrights on his work -
> > they didn't exist at that time.
>
> That was indeed part of my point...

Of course, Shakespeare was _lucky_ that copyright didn't exist,
or he'd have had his arse sued off by the people he stole his
plays from.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:53:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:53:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEELHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

People are discussing "open source" or free game rules and
claiming it's going to put game designers out of work.

This is basically crap.

FUDGE is sold, and it is completely freely available at the same
time.

GURPS Lite is given away, as were the basic rules for Alternity,
among others.

The D20 system is "open source" and there are many designers
making money off it, (or planning to make money off it) including
Hunter Gordon on this list.

Personally, I think D20 is  a "Bad Thing", not because it won't
make money, but because it will stifle creativity in mechanics.
Designers will face the choice "shall I design my own system,
whichh might fail, or shall I design a game based on D20 which
will probably guarantee me some sales I wouldn't have otherwise."
But that's just my opinion, and because I don't like the idea of
"character levels" in games.

People mentioned "Gates vs Linux".
In the D20 case though, it is like Gates deciding to open source
Windows 2000!

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:55:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:55:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8d974f770c0@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :

> But we are talking about security measure that are
> intrusive enough that the are a hassle to the day
> to day operation of a ship.

Yes.

Just as being searched for screwdrivers and penknives is
currently a hassle in the day to day operation of an airline.

> Some people are going to know about them.

Everyone will be _told_ about them. They won't be secret.

> Unless they are important  enough to make a _significant_
change in costs,
> another company will be able to draw at least some customers
away buy not
> having such intrusive requirements.

The requirements are set by the SPA and the local civilian
government, not the insurance company, as I already said :

> >The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
> >required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
> >may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
> >starport will do it (for important safety and
> >financial reasons,would you want an unwarranted vehicle
> >approaching an extremely expensve space station?), there won't
> >be any real choice except for the captains to take the risk
> >of not doing it and not go to the better starports
>
> The presumption is that every insurance company will have such
> requirements.

No, the presumption is that no insurance company will accept
liability for an illegal ship.

Because of that, if the ship owners wish to be able to recover
the cost of their starship in the event of an accident, they will
attempt to ensure their ship is legal at all times.

> That requires that you show that such requirements
> make a significant difference in insurance costs.

I suspect that any company willing to knowingly insure an illegal
ship, and be expected to pay out, will charge ten times, if not
more, than the normal going rate. And as such an organization is
almost certainly going to be criminal anyway, they may charge the
additional premiums and still not pay out.

> Otherwise insurance companies have no reason to
> push unpopular requirements.
>
> However, if you can show that such requirements are
> needed to keep theft down to a reasonable level, then
> you don't need to invoke insurance companies requiring it.
>
> In the end, invoking insurance companies is not a way
> of justifying  regulations that don't have other basis.

I agree.

However, as already stated,  the insurance companies are not the
justification for the regulations, the starport authority and
civilian govermnment is the justification for the regulations.

Insurance is just the reason the owner of the ship wants to obey
the regulations. After all, the owner may not care that there is
the possibility of a hijack, and may not care how much damage the
hijacked ship does, as long as they know they will be paid out by
the insurance company, all the ship owner has to worry about is
replacing their ship. The insurance company has to worry about
liability for damage to other ships and facilities.

I suspect that in the event of a hijack, the insurance company
will _not_ be your friend, they will be trying _very_ hard to
prove that you did not have adequate safeguards to avoid paying
out the ninety billion in damages to the residents of the suburb
the ship crashed in. If they succeeed, then the liability suit
will go against the owner of the ship.

Have a look at the completely OTT security that is currently
being applied to domestic air travel.
Confiscation of pen-knives and scissors is admittedly stupid, but
this is the sort of stupidity that you will have to deal with in
the SPA and local governments.

Think about the difference in damage potential between a 747 and
a subsidized merchant.
Then think about the greater effect that damage will have on an
orbital starport.

Security on a starship will be required to be tight to prevent
"passengers" from taking control of the starship and flying it
into the starport, or other targets of oppurtunity.

Without proof of the requisite security, you will not be allowed
near the "better" starports or planets, just as any airlines that
are not willing to implement the silly current restrictions would
not be allowed to operate out of major airports.

I agree that on current sea-going ships security is relatively
lax (And a lot of people equate traveller merchants to sea-going
merchants). But changing that will take just a single incident
where a terrorist group takes over a large tanker, turns it into
a floating bomb or biological weapon release system, and sails it
into a heavily populated harbour and sets it off. I believe this
has already been done in fiction, and one has only to look at the
Halifax incident to see the potential for destruction.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:57:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:57:17 2002
Subject: [TML] law levels, details, and more details
In-Reply-To: <20020410123043.C21755@4dv.net>
References: <200204101810.DTT06549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020410123043.C21755@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020411015015.56c0a4db.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> So he went on down to the consul, they all had a good laugh, and the
> letter informing the German registry that Calvert is approved for use
> in America was sent.
> 
> OTOH, I daresay Germany has no-one name Moon Unit or Dweezil, so the
> policy is not entirely incorrect.

In Sweden, the Department of Statistics maintains a webpage where it is
possible to query for the number of people with any name. Very
entertaining.

Calvert : 1 (male)
Sauron : 1 (male)  -  !!!
Legolas : 5 (male)
Gandalf : 15 (male)
Grus : 19 (male)  -  This name means "gravel"

And my favorite:

Skywalker : 9 (male)

The persons who have this name have it as a middle name. They are probably
named "Luke Skywalker Svensson" or something similiar.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 03:59:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 02:59:10 2002
Subject: [TML] test
In-Reply-To: <3CB4BE9A.1155267C@premier.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204101430010.1171-100000@rhylanor>
 <3CB4BE9A.1155267C@premier.net>
Message-ID: <20020411015618.314b70fa.jenry023@student.liu.se>

John Groth wrote:
> Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled in terror, and you
> would not have been informed.

Had this been a real emergency, you would all be dead by now.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 04:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeffrey Malone)
Date: Thu Apr 11 03:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Lost Causes
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17951@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <00dc01c1e140$61de4e00$a92554d2@1338700057>

To paraphrase (IIRC) Harry Summers in 'On Strategy', a (possibly apocryphal)
conversation between a US Army officer and a PAVN officer, some years later:

USA - "You know, you never defeated us on the battlefield"

PAVN - "Quite correct.  And also irrelevant."

The Tet Offensive was a great example of the 'CNN Effect' well ahead of
time, of perception having more effect than reality.  The NLF was utterly
devested in 1968, ultimately leading to cadres from the North taking control
of the struggle in the South.  But that was not the perception of the voting
public, and the rest is history...


----- Original Message -----
From: Hughes, Michael <Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 8:19 AM
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Lost Causes


> The Dougster:
> In 1965, the United States of America entered direct ground and air combat
> in SE Asia.  Less than ten years later, we were gone.  Why?
>
> Rules of engagement that prevented optimal use of our assets, public
> opinion that toppled one President and forced another to withdraw from the
> region, sheer determination of the enemy on his home turf.
>
> Mikey:
> The US were never really going to win that one. As Uncle Ho is fondly
> remembered saying 'I am willing to lose 10 men for each one of yours'.
Hell,
> I think the toll in Vietnam for the conflict was about a million on the
> Communist side. So given loses of 50k for the US that's like 20 to 1.
>
> Besides it's a bit hard to 'save' a country that won't save itself.
>
> My 0.02 of course, so don't roast me slowly over a verbal BBQ.
>
> I'm studying Vietnam now at uni. I particularly enjoyed the battle of Ap
Bac
> (?), which got turned into a major propaganda piece about the South wiping
> the floor with Communist insurgents. When the smoke cleared they found
just
> 3 bodies....
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 05:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 04:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204111145.DVD01524@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert Uhl asks about a GP rifle
<snip>
A Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 for deer. Just right.

Not truly reliable for elk, but it's been done.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 05:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 04:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204111147.DVD01644@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

laning asks
>what is a PH?

Professional Hunter
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 06:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr 11 05:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Real-world biometrics
Message-ID: <F135SenAbcZbxX9QeCw00005b24@hotmail.com>

Someone recently mentioned a well-established trick in
fiction of defeating a thumbprint scanner by cutting
off an authorized person's thumb.  Real life appears
to have caught up...

"Biometrics Can Be Painful"
current (April 11, 2002) issue at http://www.w2knews.com

Synopsis:
A company placed automated bank teller machines at mining
installations in South Africa, and used thumbprint ID.
Within weeks, they had to take them out - there were
too many incidents of people getting attacked and having
their thumbs cut off.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 06:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 11 05:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RealLife(tm) Battledress, next chapter
References: <20020411004005.5784B27A85@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <204AD90A.F27541C2@earthlink.net>

This is kinda fun...

http://www.aro.army.mil/soldiernano/


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 06:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Thu Apr 11 05:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chicken Spitting
In-Reply-To: <3CB4F721.DEF69043@sympatico.ca>; from stosh@sympatico.ca on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:38:25PM -0400
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDHDKAA.tml@downport.com> <3CB4F721.DEF69043@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20020411083438.B9890@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:38:25PM -0400, Michael Stasica wrote:
> 
> A friend job that I fear to visualize:
> 
> Giving enemas to elephants, with a 27 pound suppository in my right hand (
> gloved to the neck) and a hose in my left hand.  A broom and a shovel for the
> resultant mess, nearby.
> 
ISTR an incident where an unfortunate person got caught in and buried
by the generous outflow with fatal results...

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Real-world biometrics
In-Reply-To: <F135SenAbcZbxX9QeCw00005b24@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411085821.02b4ef78@192.168.0.1>

At 08:14 AM 4/11/2002 -0400, Walt Smith wrote:
>Someone recently mentioned a well-established trick in
>fiction of defeating a thumbprint scanner by cutting
>off an authorized person's thumb.  Real life appears
>to have caught up...
>"Biometrics Can Be Painful"
>current (April 11, 2002) issue at http://www.w2knews.com
>Synopsis:
>A company placed automated bank teller machines at mining
>installations in South Africa, and used thumbprint ID.
>Within weeks, they had to take them out - there were
>too many incidents of people getting attacked and having
>their thumbs cut off.

Ah...South Africa...home of the flame thrower anti-carjacking device...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F195GoE1k8LN6FWe7Xl0000b978@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB635B9.12478.8D0AC6@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 0:35, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>      The Imperial China the "Southern Barbarians" began contacting in the 
> 1500's was in one of it's disintergration phases.  The Ming were on the way 
> out, the Manchus were trying to get in, pirates and warlords abounded.  The 
> periphary was unravelling, Taiwan was a pirate kingdom that the Chinese paid 
> the Dutch to tackle for them, Korea either lost to the Japanese or 
> independent, Tibet gone, the far west lost to various horse peoples.  The 
> Ming were straining every nerve just to keep the lid on, and they failed.  
> After them, the Manchu were nothing more than a foreign dynasty simply 
> trying to remain in power.  They restored nothing of China's former power or 
> borders, even losing more territory as their dynasty went on.
>      Does any of that sound like the Ziru Sirka to you?

Yep. The Vilani already had problems when the Terrans turned up. They 
no longer had a monoploy on jump drives and were  suffering from piracy 
from outside their borders by minor races. That's why they thought the 
Terrans were just a bunch of pirates to start with.

>      When they met the Terrans, the Vilani were keeping a ZS boot on the 
> necks of umpteen minor races, races and home worlds that the Vilani were 
> able to keep quiet even as the Terrans racked up victory after victory.  
> There is no mention of these plethora of minor races rising in revolt, all 
> we hear about is their "welcoming their Terran liberators."  How were the 
> Vilani able to keep all those minor races down, how were they able to play 
> power politics with Vargr merc pawns, how were they able to still do all of 
> that, and STILL lose to a single system polity?

Because the Vargr were not that far from Vland, and were an altogether 
higher prioroty. As for the minor races - the Vilani controlled the 
transport and information flow, so the subject races may not have even 
heard of the Terrans until they were right inside their subsector and 
impossible for the Vilani to hide any longer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6380C.25968.9620C5@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 20:36, John T. Kwon wrote:

> If you also consider that Traveller gun combat is at about 
> the same range as a Cape Buffalo encounter, and you're 
> probably going to live for about as many shots (two, maybe 
> three), then I think that whatever makes a good Cape Buffalo 
> weapon might make a good Traveller combat weapon.
> 
> Let's see.  We'll make it .416 Remington, since we can still 
> get Speer tungsten core solids. 

Don't like the .416 Remington (unreasoning dislike - nothing I can pin 
down). I'd take either a .416 Rigby, a .458 Winchester or a .378 
Weatherby - the latter having the advantage of being a fine long-range 
weapon.
 
> The rifle should be a 4-shot controlled-feed pre-64 
> Winchester action (with fixed ejector).  Barrel length should 
> be 22 inches, and we'll go with a muzzle brake.

That's a horridly short barrel for a round like any of the .416s, and 
with a muzzle brake on it you're not going to be making friends of your 
allies, that's for sure.

> The stock 
> should be optimized for firing on your hind legs, and we'll 
> put a Trijicon Reflex sight on top, with express sights just 
> in case that gets broken.

Now this I can agree on, though a x2 - x5 vari-power scope would be a 
nice altenative (gives the option of longer shots).

> Get yourself a pouch that holds 20 rounds, maybe keep 40 
> rounds in your pack.  More than enough for most Traveller 
> adventures.

Yep.

I was thinking of another choice earlier today - the Lee-Enfield SMLE 
or No4. The .303 British is a fine round, and a bit milder than the .30-
06 or 7.92x57mm, and the Mark VII round is more wounding than you might 
think, thanks to careful design - it had an aluminium or peat insert in 
the nose of the bullet, making it 'rear heavy'. The bullet also has an 
exposed lead base (like most ball ammo of the time), which means that 
its rear is quite weak. The combination of these two features results 
in a bullet that tumbles rapidly in flesh (for a full-bore round) and 
flattens at the rear, resulting in something that spins like a sycamore 
seed. We once fired some into a 40 pound block of cheddar and the 
'wound track' was interesting and rather larger than that of .30-06 
ball, though not so large as that of a .30-06 soft nose. Of course this 
isn't a perfect demo, as cheese won't spring back from the temporary 
cavity the way a person's body will, but still.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB638C4.8619.98EF71@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 22:36, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).  
> But sometimes I have a hankering for a Space Opera TU.  You 
> know the background - the original book Triplanetary, or 
> perhaps the Tom Corbett, Space Cadet books.
> 
> Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I 
> need a bit of camp now and then.

Played it for years, back in the day. A friend of mine maintains that 
it's ruined his ability to enjoy newer SF games - they just aren't 
_real_ SF rpgs without Gene Day ink drawings, many typos and large 
sections of unplayable rules.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet... or even
the moon?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
"Giving money and power to government is
like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
--P.J. O'Rourke


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Huxton" <red@archonet.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:04 PM
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters


> Idle speculation from an idle speculator, and it must have been asked
> before...
>
> We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any upper limit
> ("that's no moon...")
>
> I had a sudden vision of a jump-capable planet working its way around the
> galaxy sucking gas giants dry between jumps.
>
> Any gearheads got a spreadsheet that can handle this?
>
> Oh, no cheating of course, you have to do this using LBB Book 2 rules at
TL13
> and bring the cost in at under 100MCr ;-)
>
> - Richard Huxton
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:37:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:37:08 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <20020410233434.B23469@4dv.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410221956.02173dd0@mail.verizon.net>; from res0i3sf@verizon.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:25:21PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CB63A21.15419.9E4377@localhost>

On 10 Apr 2002 at 23:34, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> I've a serious question for Those Who Know About Guns.  What's a good
> general-purpose hunting rifle?  In other words, something good enough
> to do a good job on deer and elk, fairly cheap and definitely with
> inexpensive ammunition.  There are all sorts of nice & nifty rifles,
> and I realise that the ammunition's not going to be cheap--but I'm
> really not up to paying 50c a round unless I really, really have to.
> 
> Thanks much!

My advice would be a .30-06, as it'll work on just about anything you 
have in the US (though I believe that most people consider it a little 
small for brown bear). If you're concerned about recoil something like 
a 7x57mm or 7mm Remington express would be fine, or a .243 winchester, 
6mm Remington or .25-06 for that matter. Now, that was lots of help, 
wasn't it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:39:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:39:08 2002
Subject: [TML] A 'Billion' Earth's.......
Message-ID: <20020411133823.87249.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com>

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_medical/story.jsp?story=283413

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <F97SgeR4UIS42NXHwGr0001bbad@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 6:00, Sam D wrote:

> As far as rifles, Savages are good and cheap.  Ugly though.  To be
> honest, there is not much difference between the bottom of the line
> Savage, Ruger, Winchester or Remington.  The nice thing about the
> latter two is that, if you ever decide to do so, you can upgrade the
> rifle easily.  All 4 brands will do the job and last several
> generations, and they all get pretty good accuracy out of the box. 
> Expect to spend at least $3-400 or so, which might include a cheap
> scope.  Check Wal-Mart.  Get a synthetic stock.  These rifles are so
> cheap, that it might be hard to find a used one for less. 

Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle 
you like the look of. As Jim Charmichel once said "You're a very lucky 
man if you get to spend more time firing your rifle than looking at 
it." That being the case there's no point getting a rifle you can't 
stand the sight of.

Another thing - unless you intend on doing a lot of long range shooting 
don't be too concerned about extreme accuracy - despite what many of us 
have been ranting on about getting 2" at 100 yards is plenty good 
enough for most (non-varmint) hunting - that's still a deer's lower 
chest at 300 yards, easy.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:43:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:43:35 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411013453.029c0450@pop.wizard.net>
References: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB63B80.28309.A39F58@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 1:39, laning wrote:

> People who are liking lighter rounds are also exceptionally skilled shots 
> and I think factoring in their ability at shot placement more than I myself 
> would be comfortable with.  Heard way too many stories from excellent shots 
> who lost deer that they good pretty good hits on using .30-'06.  I'm not 
> saying they won't get their one-shot kills with lighter rounds.  Just that 
> I'd rather not rely on that kind of thing if it were me.
> 
> Some of the recent posts on the topic to the TML are modifying my opinions, 
> but only somewhat.

One thing that struck me - in all this 5.56 vs 7.62 nobody has 
suggested that that P90 thingie's round (I forget it's designation) 
would be a desirable alternative.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:48:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:48:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
In-Reply-To: <memo.437377@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CB63CCB.4807.A8A983@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 7:58, Megan Robertson wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020410180651.009f12d0@mindspring.com>
> When in the British army, I got bawled out for not wearing my stripes on 
> combat clothing (they were correctly displayed on other uniforms). I 
> pointed out that in the field: -
> 
> a. I didn't want the enemy to know what rank I was.
> b. My own people knew me already.
> 
> I then added some removable stripes, which only went on when there was an 
> officer around :-)

We didn't (and don't) wear rank in the field. In fact we went to having 
NCO rank on removeable brassards so that you didn't have to have so 
many different shirts, and so that it could be taken off and put on 
again depending on circumstances more readily. Wearing rank in the 
field is about as bright as saluting in the field. In fact it was SOP 
for field dress to have no insignia on it at all now that I think about 
it.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <200204111145.DVD01524@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB63DAD.23897.AC1EE3@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 7:45, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Robert Uhl asks about a GP rifle
> <snip>
> A Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 for deer. Just right.
> 
> Not truly reliable for elk, but it's been done.

Just to keep things going - I'm not a fan big fan of the .30-30 (though 
I nearly bought one ten years ago - got an SKS instead), as IMO it's 
underpowered for larger deer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 07:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 06:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
 <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20020411155818.5b11fc3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Christopher Pratt wrote:
> What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet... or
even
> the moon?

Calculations for Luna follow:

Using a diameter of 3.476 E+6 meters:

Volume: 1.759 E+20 cubic meters

Displacement: 1.257 E+19 displacement tons

Surface area: 3.796 E+13 square meters

FF&S2 structural factor: 1.037 E+25

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <200204111402.DVH05321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>On 11 Apr 2002 at 1:39, laning wrote:
>Heard way too many stories from excellent shots 
> who lost deer that they good pretty good hits on using .30-
>'06.

A good shot is not necessarily a good hunter.  Some misguided 
souls believe that a bullet is a magical item that will make 
up for a rump shot, or a hit low in the belly.

There are, indeed, rounds that will enter the back end of a 
moose and come out the front, disrupting everything on the 
way through.  But it's better to pick where you're going to 
hit.  And consider what effect that's going to have.  This 
often means passing up a shot, or waiting for the animal to 
change aspect.

I'm convinced that the concepts brought out in Fackler's work 
apply to all animals.  You need a hit on the major nervous 
systems (brain or high in the spinal cord), or you need a hit 
that will get the animal to perish from hemorrhagic shock.  I 
have found that it's best to try to break bone in deer, 
because they can still run while bleeding to death.  Since 
I'm not doing headshots on deer, I try to break the shoulder 
in particular.  I can't see how a .30-06 would fail to break 
the shoulder if loaded with a proper weight bullet (150 
grains or higher, 180 grains being typical).  

ObTrav: In my revision (or supplanting) of the various 
Traveller gun combat systems, I have a penetration 
threshold/degredation for armor.  Even if a round penetrates 
armor, there are limits then on how badly you can be hurt.  
Of course, if the weapon has a really high penetration value, 
then this effect can be overcome, in much the same way that a 
really powerful hunting caliber can make up for shooting elk 
or moose from behind.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Chicken Spitting
Message-ID: <F117uMJ4ySUfjhcgrqo00002681@hotmail.com>

Robert A. Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>I wouldn't give that job to my worst enemy.

You simply need a higher quality worst enemy to give it to.
:-)

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
Walsm Penor, or Terith Smipel, depending on which
iteration of the Lucasian name generator we're using.
I kind of like Terith Penor.

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:42:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:42:07 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F107XkF81yvoXFMxmyh000181e3@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>I'm convinced that the concepts brought out in Fackler's work
>apply to all animals.

I think this is a very good point.  Whether you are a hunter, acting in self 
defense, a cop or a soldier, your objective should be the same.  Despite 
occassional talk that hunters are content to let a wounded deer slip away or 
are very concerned about damaging too much meat, my experience is just the 
opposite.  Most of the hunters I know, if an animal does not drop like a 
sack of bricks, immediately start thinking about practicing more or getting 
a more powerful rifle.  In fact, hunters and cops seem to take "stopping 
power" much more seriously than the military.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 08:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 07:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F99548IlvMTkL01NspD000142b4@hotmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn said:

>Just to keep things going - I'm not a fan big fan of the .30-30 (though
>I nearly bought one ten years ago - got an SKS instead), as IMO it's
>underpowered for larger deer.

Although I have learned that one must tread carefully when critisizing the 
30/30, I tend to agree.  My problem is not so much with its stopping power 
as with its poor ballistics.  The 30/30's point blank range is only like 200 
yards, while you will get 300 or more with a more modern cartridge.  The 
accuracy is pretty bad too, and difficult to remedy, but adequate for short 
range.  It is a fine looking weapon, but unless longer shots are out of the 
question I would get a bolt action.

You are better off getting a cheap rifle and a more expensive scope.  Unless 
you are a very skilled rifleman, a decent scope (either 4x, 2-7 or 3-9) is a 
great asset.  Nice binocs are also important.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
In-Reply-To: <200204110236.DUL01293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411075617.009f3d90@mindspring.com>

At 10:36 PM 4/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Doug perhaps has a Silly TU (haven't been there, can't say).

Actually, when I get the time and energy to run games, they tend to be 
deadly serious.


>Anyone remember the original Space Opera game?  I think I
>need a bit of camp now and then.

I loved that game!  I think the authors got paid by the subcase in the rules.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:12:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Kim)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:12:09 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB63B80.28309.A39F58@localhost>
References: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
 <3CB63B80.28309.A39F58@localhost>
Message-ID: <p05101502b8db5700ec4e@[10.0.1.10]>

At 1:42 AM +1200 4/12/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

>One thing that struck me - in all this 5.56 vs 7.62 nobody has
>suggested that that P90 thingie's round (I forget it's designation)
>would be a desirable alternative.

	5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar 
helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target 
(titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle 
velocity of 715m/s.

	http://www.remtek.com/arms/fn/p90/index.htm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:26:10 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204111525.DVL00842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
<snip about the .30-30, buying a weapon, scope, etc>

Most hunters I know (unless they are out west where the 
terrain permits it) don't shoot past 100 yards.  Yes, the .30-
30 has a range limit (look at the energy drop off for 5.56 
while you're at it), but 100 yards is just fine.  I like to 
get close.  I can hit paper way out there, but animals move 
in unpredictable ways, and I'm wanting to hit shoulder.

Keep in mind that many bolt-action/cartridge combinations are 
capable of working far beyond the shooter's ability.  The 
shooter will probably never explore that limit.  Many hunters 
I have met are not capable of shooting up to what they carry, 
not to mention even a lowly .30-30.

Many bolt-action stocks are not natural pointers - it always 
seems uncomfortable in the standing, kneeling, or sitting 
position.  Sometimes I think that the designer figured that 
everyone wants a flat beavertail fore-end for shooting from 
the bench.  Screw that.  I hate my Sendero precisely because 
it doesn't "point".

The typical lever-action Marlin or Winchester will point like 
there's no tomorrow - a good factor for a beginning (or even 
experienced) shooter who is shooting in the field.  Tod may 
laugh and figure I'm like that guy who brought us the M-14 
stock.

At 100 yards, you can get excellent results without a scope.  
If you have a Marlin 336, you can get a rear fold-down peep 
sight for about 25 dollars.  Sight this in, and go practice 
shooting on your hind legs at 50 to 100 yards.  If you can 
find a little valley, you can practice shooting downhill, 
uphill, etc.  Carry a pack with some paper plates and 
thumbtacks.  Practice standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone 
to see which one you're most comfortable with, and which one 
you find quick.  At home, you can practice getting into 
positions using your empty rifle.  Many people *never* 
practice this.  Learning what your body likes and dislikes 
about positions, and learning what makes a solid position 
only comes from this practice.

A good sling is also essential.  Many like the Ching Sling, 
but I am still fond of the leather military two-piece.  Stay 
slung up with this, and you can shoot standing to 100 yards 
with great accuracy.

A Win 94 or Marlin 336 may be cheap, may not be tackdrivers, 
but with little extra equipment, they can put a softpoint 
onto a paper plate at 100 yards very quickly.

If you're interested in reloading your cartridges, you can 
get a fairly inexpensive Lee 2001 (single station frame 
press).  I still have the one I got in 1984, and although 
I've gotten better dies and tools, I find it just as good as 
my Redding or RCBS.  This will lower the cost of your shots, 
and will allow you to spend more time with your hobby.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 09:32:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 11 08:32:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F70SDx1kLwxTQTYkWSz00001108@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "Yep. The Vilani already had problems when the Terrans turned up. They 
no longer had a monoploy on jump drives and were  suffering from piracy from 
outside their borders by minor races. That's why they thought the Terrans 
were just a bunch of pirates to start with."


Mr. Boleyn,

     I thought the "Outies" were all recruited, armed, and paid for by 
factions in the Ziru Sirka.  The Vargr were the exception in all of this 
because most of them hadn't rounded Windhorn yet and they don't have the 
staying power necessary for conquest (as we all detailed in the problems 
with the DGP's Rebellion).  Sounds as if I'm going to have to sit down and 
think about this much, much, MUCH more.
     The local ZS reps may have thought the Terrans were pirates up to a 
point, but only fools or traitors would have thought so after the 2nd IW and 
the Vilani visit to the Sol system.

     "Because the Vargr were not that far from Vland, and were an altogether 
higher priority."

     In the coreward sections of the ZS, sure, but in the early days the ZS 
Rim should have been able to handle Sol on their own.  IIRC, the ZS core 
fleet was dispatched to deal with the Terrans late in the IW period, but the 
Confederation already had jump3 technology and mousetrapped the ZS fleet.

     "As for the minor races - the Vilani controlled the transport and 
information flow, so the subject races may not have even heard of the 
Terrans until they were right inside their subsector and impossible for the 
Vilani to hide any longer."

     Yeah, I've got to think this over even more.  To my mind, minor race 
rebellions aided and abetted by Terran infiltrators should be a big part of 
the Interstellar Wars.  There would have been uprisings and sabotage a 
sector or so "behind" the fighting front and the minor race allies providing 
the lower-TL cannon fodder for the Alliance's offensives.
     Thanks for the ideas to chew over.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 10:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 09:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
Message-ID: <4b.1b7f2094.29e70e82@aol.com>

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From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet 
cover.  In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.

   And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the first 
place? The Lt. maybe? lol!

  -Ken Murphy-



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>From: Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt;
<BR>
<BR>I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet 
<BR>cover. &nbsp;In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the first place? The Lt. maybe? lol!
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 11:46:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Thu Apr 11 10:46:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <20020411160312.A6708@freeman.little-possums.net> from "Timothy Little" at Apr 11, 2002 04:03:12 PM
Message-ID: <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>

> jimv wrote:
> > In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
> > both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
> > physics as we know it,
> 
> That it does.  :)
> 
> I've worked out a set of variations on all the fundamental constants
> that works.  However, upon doing the equations it just works out
> equivalent to measuring things in grams instead of kilograms. :/
> 
> There was no *real* difference at all, including interaction with the
> outside world.  Oh well :(

Really? Hmm... this makes me think about that last example you
posed:

> OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
> the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
> a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
> strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
> hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
> when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
> decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
> just one simple example.
> 
> Hence inertial suppression requires more than just changing the
> strength of forces.  If you want the atoms to behave the same way, you
> need to alter fundamental constants as well.
 
Why does h influence the size of the atom?

Also, how do we know that h is a fundamental constant and not
dependant on the factors we might be changing (i.e. fundamental
forces) with the intertial suppression scheme?

That said:
I presume m_e is mass of electron and q_e is charge of the electron.
pi is 'pi', and h is plank's.  I'm not sure what eps_0... something
about the electrostatic attraction?

Are you saying that by reducing the mass, the orbitals of the electrons
are going to be larger?

I'm not completely sure how plank's constant enters into this.

If you say you are reducing the effect of an electronic charge by the
same percentage that you are reducing the mass, all should be good,
even if that means plank's constant has changed, which, I admit, I
was hoping to avoid... but when you mentioned that you created a
set of mechanics which worked perfectly well w/ all the constants
changing... hmm.

I'm thinking that perhaps these constants come out of evaluating
quantities such as the size of an atom.... in other words, perhaps
ZPF taming (inertial suppression & fundamental force suppression)
would end up modifying these so-called constants. But I don't know
enough about plank's to really make that assessment. Basically, what
I'm driving at here, is if you dropped the values of the fundamental
forces, would planck's constant also change as a result of that? If
so, then we've got a bit of a squirrely situation which might just
work mathematically, but which would make your average physics
doctorate have a cow.

On this assumption that this doesn't work, however:
> > so it seems that I'm going to have to relent and give up on this
> > idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes infeasible, and we're left
> > with FTL (which has already been done to death).
> 
> Almost all forms of FTL violate physics as we know it, too.  Don't
> take my insistence that inertia suppression doesn't work with known
> physics and chemistry to mean that I'd choke and barf if I saw it in a
> game.  I quite enjoyed the "Lensman" series, after all :)

Well, I'm sorta torn between this idea and Alcubierre's FTL (space
warping) idea, but we've discussed that one a few months ago, and
if I remember correctly, you made the contention that it leads to
wormholes and time travel, which we really don't want to deal with.
That's (a small) part of the reason I was hoping to use this inertial
suppression idea instead, but if it can't be explained in a way that
a physics major would say... "hmm... interesting... and I can't really
disprove it either... nor does it lead to ridiculous & exploitable
technologies" then maybe it shouldn't be used. I'm shooting for
something with a hard-SF feel. If we wanted soft-SF, we'd use
hyperspace and quasispace from starcon2.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:04:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:04:42 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F99EjKuZA11Fr9YawOu000146f1@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon says:

>Most hunters I know (unless they are out west where the
>terrain permits it) don't shoot past 100 yards.

I live in the West, and the 30/30 is virtually extinct as a sporting arm 
here.  Under 100 yard shot are very uncommon, and most guys are unsatisfied 
with their 300 yard rifles.   It seems like everybody is buying one of the 
new 300 Magnums, in the hope of going farther.

We tend to forget that the 30/30 in many places is all that is needded.

>Keep in mind that many bolt-action/cartridge combinations are
>capable of working far beyond the shooter's ability.  The
>shooter will probably never explore that limit.  Many hunters
>I have met are not capable of shooting up to what they carry,
>not to mention even a lowly .30-30.

Unfortunately, that is very true.  A 300 Mag does not make a guy a good 
shot; in fact, the opposite is usually the case.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:08:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:08:23 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <F56z8kI063RA5C2duii00023931@hotmail.com>

Justin Kim said:

>	5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar
>helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target
>(titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle
>velocity of 715m/s.

Is that a FN pistol round?  Are they talking about using it in anything 
other than a pistol?

There was a lot of heartache going from .45 to 9m; can you imagine the howls 
if they went to a .22 pistol?

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:12:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:12:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Space Axe
Message-ID: <f8.19b3e031.29e72b62@aol.com>

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   Penis bones aside, the Space Axe(tm) stuff has been pretty interesting. 
Its got me wondering as to its actual performance characteristics.
   Lets take a look at axes:
   In MT, the Handaxe has Pen 6, Blocks 1, and does 3 Damage, while our 
friend the Battleaxe has Pen 8, Blocks 1, and also delivers 3 Damage.
   Now the Broadsword, for example, has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is less 
than 10, and I'm thinking our Space Axe(tm) should have a similar modifier of 
some sort; clearly seperating the thing's use by those in BD (or grotesquely 
jacked up with boinics and the like), and the relatively weak Everyone Else.
   I'm thinking the Space Axe has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is currently 
less than 20; making it act as a "normal" Battleaxe when weilded by 
non-BDers. This would mean our Ronco Space Axe(tm) would have Pen 16 when 
_properly_ used with BD and the like.
   Would this thing have a pick at the opposite end like a fireman's axe, or 
be double headed? I'm more for the pick end, myself. 
   One thing I liked from an old Challenge or Digest article on Low tech 
weapons, gave a reduction to the protection provided by "plate" (and, by my 
"logical" extension, Combat Armor and Battle Dress) against different 
weapons. Mostly the weapons sited were blunt ones; blades (and axes, IIRC) 
not receiving any armor mods.   
   Anyhow, one weapon, the Pick, reduced "Plate's" protection by -4 right 
off. That might be a handy little modifier to use when weilding the axe 
pick-end first :)
   I liked the idea of a rocket-assist on the downstroke as well, but am 
unable to figure any mods for _that_---maybe it gives the thing 4 Damage 
instead of 3? ;P
   Darn! Now I'm starting to wonder about all those creepy-looking chainsaw 
blades and the like I see on those Warhammer figures...
  -Ken Murphy-

 "When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer 
for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out 
of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God 
Almighty have mercy on you!" 

Legion of the Damned
Sven Hassel

   
   

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Penis bones aside, the Space Axe(tm) stuff has been pretty interesting. Its got me wondering as to its actual performance characteristics.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Lets take a look at axes:
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;In MT, the Handaxe has Pen 6, Blocks 1, and does 3 Damage, while our friend the Battleaxe has Pen 8, Blocks 1, and also delivers 3 Damage.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Now the Broadsword, for example, has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is less than 10, and I'm thinking our Space Axe(tm) should have a similar modifier of some sort; clearly seperating the thing's use by those in BD (or grotesquely jacked up with boinics and the like), and the relatively weak Everyone Else.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I'm thinking the Space Axe has its Pen/2 if the user's STR is currently less than 20; making it act as a "normal" Battleaxe when weilded by non-BDers. This would mean our Ronco Space Axe(tm) would have Pen 16 when _properly_ used with BD and the like.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Would this thing have a pick at the opposite end like a fireman's axe, or be double headed? I'm more for the pick end, myself. 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;One thing I liked from an old Challenge or Digest article on Low tech weapons, gave a reduction to the protection provided by "plate" (and, by my "logical" extension, Combat Armor and Battle Dress) against different weapons. Mostly the weapons sited were blunt ones; blades (and axes, IIRC) not receiving any armor mods. &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Anyhow, one weapon, the Pick, reduced "Plate's" protection by -4 right off. That might be a handy little modifier to use when weilding the axe pick-end first :)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I liked the idea of a rocket-assist on the downstroke as well, but am unable to figure any mods for _that_---maybe it gives the thing 4 Damage instead of 3? ;P
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Darn! Now I'm starting to wonder about all those creepy-looking chainsaw blades and the like I see on those Warhammer figures...
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR>
<BR><P ALIGN=CENTER> "When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God Almighty have mercy on you!" 
<BR><P ALIGN=LEFT>
<BR>Legion of the Damned
<BR>Sven Hassel
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</P></P></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:14:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:14:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Adios Pirates!
Message-ID: <20020411181056.4612.qmail@earthlink.net>

And you thought Traveller pirates had it rough.

-- quote --

ABCNews.com

April 10 &#8212; They may not have patches over their eyes, parrots on their shoulders, and bottles of rum in their hands, but modern-day pirates are preying on the weak and the unwary.

From Borneo to Baja California, pirate attacks &#8212; up 400 percent in the last decade &#8212; are bolder and bloodier than ever. Like their legendary predecessors, they pose a serious threat to tankers, freighters and sailors across the world. And, according to some experts, many more attacks go unreported, especially in tourist spots. "The crimes are becoming more and more audacious," says Kim Petersen, a security expert who tracks pirates. "They're after whatever they can get."

Though no cruise ships have been attacked recently, the cruise lines are now so worried about piracy and hijacking that they've hired Gurkhas, Nepalese soldiers skilled with knives and swords, to protect their ships and passengers...

-- end quote --

The rest of the story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Downtown/2020/Downtown_020410_pirates_feature.html

-- 


David Smart



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:17:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:17:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Adios Pirates!
Message-ID: <20020411181134.84657.qmail@earthlink.net>

And you thought Traveller pirates had it rough.

-- quote --

ABCNews.com

April 10 &#8212; They may not have patches over their eyes, parrots on their shoulders, and bottles of rum in their hands, but modern-day pirates are preying on the weak and the unwary.

From Borneo to Baja California, pirate attacks &#8212; up 400 percent in the last decade &#8212; are bolder and bloodier than ever. Like their legendary predecessors, they pose a serious threat to tankers, freighters and sailors across the world. And, according to some experts, many more attacks go unreported, especially in tourist spots. "The crimes are becoming more and more audacious," says Kim Petersen, a security expert who tracks pirates. "They're after whatever they can get."

Though no cruise ships have been attacked recently, the cruise lines are now so worried about piracy and hijacking that they've hired Gurkhas, Nepalese soldiers skilled with knives and swords, to protect their ships and passengers...

-- end quote --

The rest of the story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Downtown/2020/Downtown_020410_pirates_feature.html

-- 


David Smart



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:19:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:19:33 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F56z8kI063RA5C2duii00023931@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 11:05 AM, Sam D at samdx@hotmail.com wrote:

> Justin Kim said:
> 
>> 5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar
>> helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target
>> (titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle
>> velocity of 715m/s.
> 
> Is that a FN pistol round?  Are they talking about using it in anything
> other than a pistol?

It's also the round for the FN P90.

It would be interesting to compare it's lethality to the 9mm ball round that
it would replace.  Energy is only a little more than the 9mm but the recoil
should be nothing.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 12:56:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Kim)
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:56:25 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <p05101503b8db8ae2c7f1@[10.0.1.10]>

At 11:17 AM -0700 4/11/02, Tod Glenn wrote:

>It's also the round for the FN P90.
>
>It would be interesting to compare it's lethality to the 9mm ball round that
>it would replace.  Energy is only a little more than the 9mm but the recoil
>should be nothing.

	It's supposed to leave large nasty wound cavities in the 
target.  The website I referenced in my last post used to have a 
picture of the track the round left in a block of ballistic gelatin. 
I'm a complete novice, but it looked unpleasant to me :)

	The 5.7x28mm round was designed to replace the 9mm because of 
the 9mm's poor armor penetrating capabilities.

Justin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:09:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:09:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: SEC: UNCLASS Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409141814.027d2810@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20411.112148.1F4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>> First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first name
>>> First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town where 
>>> you were born.

Leoer McSan

I *don't* think so...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:10:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:10:59 2002
Subject: [TML] RealLife(tm) Battledress, next chapter
In-Reply-To: <204AD90A.F27541C2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20411.112029.5P7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Gee, you sent this on March 3, 1987. Slow X-boat?

In mail you write:

> This is kinda fun...
>
> http://www.aro.army.mil/soldiernano/
>
>
> David

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:12:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:12:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018393991.5137.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20411.112329.6T1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>> Keep in mind that while the *energy* of the pulse might only be a few
>> kilojoules the *power* level will be in the megawatt to gigawatt range.
>> Pulses of 1 millisecond or *shorter* will be wanted, both to avoid
>> problems with target movement, but also because the shorter duration
>> tends to increase the "shock" effect due to increased rapidity of
>> energy deposition.
>
> Think microsecond.  You want to create a supersonic shock effect.

That pushes the 1 kJ pulse to *gigawatt* power levels in the rifle. 
Even if it's only for a microsecond, a gigawatt is a lot of power.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:14:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:14:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8D99A5C.382DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20411.120223.5O8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/9/02 11:41 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> 
>>> I think you've got a minor error there; perhaps it was 65 grain ;).
>>> A 65 gram projectile at 4800 fps would make people explode.
>> 
>> 65 grams is about 2.3 *ounces*. Ouch.
>> 
>> 4800 fps = ~1460 m/s.
>> 
>> Yeek! That's almost 70 kiloJoules muzzle energy!
>> 
>> Yeah, that'd make folks go splat.
>
> I ran the numbers through the ballistics calculator I posted.
>
> 69,562 Joules of energy
> 1,130 joules of free recoil
>
> 25D T4 damage (18D TNE damage)

Or the equivalent of 16.6 grams of TNT.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:19:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:19:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204111918.DVS00303@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

shadow@krypton.rain.com says
>
>That pushes the 1 kJ pulse to *gigawatt* power levels in the 
>rifle. Even if it's only for a microsecond, a gigawatt is a 
lot of power.
>
You should realize then the power of the current smokeless 
powder cartridges.  We're raising 5 to 8 kJ (depending on 
caliber) in seven-tenths of a millisecond.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:21:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:21:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F1848kFEs6x7Oq6q4sM0001f07c@hotmail.com>

From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>

     "Riiiiiight.  And the United States singlehandedly beat Hitler and
liberated Europe.  Just ask any contemporary 'Merkun.  (Okay, maybe the 
Limeys helped us out some, but not those dirty Reds, no sir.  And definitely 
not the French - all they know how to do is surrender.  What?  The Chinese?  
Were they *in* WW2?)"


Mr. St.Clair,

     Exactly my point, sir!  The Yanks no more singlehandedly beat Adolph 
than the Terran Confederation singlehandedly beat the Ziru Sirka.
     In the center, the Vilani were engaged in realpolitik factional games 
amongst themselves, complete with "outie" mercs and personal armies.  Along 
the coreward frontier, the Vargr were sniffing about, some recruited and 
used for internal ZS power politics and others still feral and rading 
willy-nilly.  And, scattered throughout the empire, were dozens of restless 
minor races, chafing at the Vilani collar around their collective necks and 
waiting for the slightest provocation to rebel.
     The Terrans had help, and lots of it.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:38:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:38:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <200204111937.DVT02415@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
>
>     "Riiiiiight.  And the United States singlehandedly beat 
>Hitler and liberated Europe. 

UK, very helpful
USSR, extremely helpful
Chinese, yes very
in fact, it was "world war" for a reason.  It took half the 
world to defeat the Axis.

It could also be argued that without the United States, the 
Germans would have won the war.  So no one could do the whole 
job - it had to be done together.

The French -- for the ones that actually helped, were only a 
distraction to keep Germans occupied elsewhere.  Many French 
were wholehearted collaborators.  They don't want to mention 
this -- in fact, "everyone" was in the Maquis.  They gladly 
handed over 1 million Jews, Socialists, homosexuals, and 
other "undesireables" over to the Germans.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:56:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:56:08 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200
References: <F97SgeR4UIS42NXHwGr0001bbad@hotmail.com> <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020411135544.A25603@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle 
> you like the look of.

Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
_ugly_:-(

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Mark Twain famously noted that those who are interested in the law or
sausage should never watch either made.  In the years since he made the
remark, there has been considerable reform in sausage making.
                                          --Dennis E. Powell

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 13:58:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:58:12 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <200204111525.DVL00842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:25:35AM -0400
References: <200204111525.DVL00842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020411135704.B25603@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:25:35AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> A good sling is also essential.  Many like the Ching Sling, 
> but I am still fond of the leather military two-piece.  Stay 
> slung up with this, and you can shoot standing to 100 yards 
> with great accuracy.

I've never actually figured out how to use a sling...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Verbogeny is one of the pleasurettes of a creatific thinkerizer.
                                               --Peter da Silva

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
>food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
>parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
>they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
>                --Socrates, c.  5th century BC

"  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
   abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
   man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
   end of the world is fast approaching."
                          - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:11:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:11:12 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204112010.g3BKAVh12588@mailbag.com>

"Sam D" 
> John T. Kwon says:
> 
> >Most hunters I know (unless they are out west where the
> >terrain permits it) don't shoot past 100 yards.
> 
> I live in the West, and the 30/30 is virtually extinct as a sporting arm 
> here.  Under 100 yard shot are very uncommon, and most guys are unsatisfied 
> with their 300 yard rifles.   It seems like everybody is buying one of the 
> new 300 Magnums, in the hope of going farther.



By the same token, I live in Wisconsin. 100 yards? Try 100 feet real often. 

All I need for any hunting I do is my old Ithica 12 Gauge pump: Slugs for deer 
and (steel) shot for birds. I also have a flintlock in .50", but that's for fun 
not for hunting. I may someday get a .308 for a hunting rifle, but honestly 
there's nothing I want to hunt that I would need anything more than that 12.

Plus, IMHO, it's the best home defense weapon available. 

William




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <200204112013.DVT07701@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>I've never actually figured out how to use a sling...

Get a book on three-position shooting.  There will be a 
section on using the sling.  Make sure that you buy 
a "proper" two-piece leather sling (it will set you back more 
than the cheap nylon straps that you see on the shelf).

Once you "sling up" properly, you will be surprised at the 
level of stability you can achieve.  As long as its not too 
tight, you can walk around slung up like this.  

ObTrav:  This, and the Ching Sling, are the only "sling" 
types that I will give a +DM for accuracy.  Those 
other "things" are just fancy padded carrying straps.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:46:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:46:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>; from shadow@krypton.rain.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:15:43PM -0800
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410011300.027e4e30@pop.wizard.net> <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020411144523.A25786@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:15:43PM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> "  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
>    abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
>    man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
>    end of the world is fast approaching."
>                           - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC

.sig slurped...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
'Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US
 companies like Microsoft.'                         --some AOLer
'To this end we dedicate ourselves...'                     --Don

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 14:47:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:47:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Open Gaming
References: <20411.121543.3A0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CB5F5F1.3050200@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
> 
> 
>>Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents; They grab the best
>>food at the table without thought of sharing; They trample on their
>>parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
>>they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.
>>               --Socrates, c.  5th century BC
> 
> 
> "  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
>    abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
>    man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
>    end of the world is fast approaching."
>                           - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC
> 

Some of the pictures in the caves in Lascaux express the same things, 
I'll bet.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 15:25:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Apr 11 14:25:08 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
parts of the debate to TML chat?

Or else I'll begin posting socialist and communist propaganda...

(not a serious threat, but about as relevant)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 15:29:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 11 14:29:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F247Acvgn29MhIydI8o0001bb2c@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "The French -- for the ones that actually helped, were only a
distraction to keep Germans occupied elsewhere.  Many French were 
wholehearted collaborators.  They don't want to mention this -- in fact, 
"everyone" was in the Maquis.  They gladly handed over 1 million Jews, 
Socialists, homosexuals, and other "undesireables" over to the Germans."


Mr. Kwon,

     The French wheat and meat fed the Nazi war machine.  French hands and 
concrete built the Atlantic Wall and the submarine pens.  French rails 
shipped men and materials without delay or hindrance.
     All of Holland worked for their resistance, the Germans had a devil of 
time finding collaborators there.  The Danes, from the King on down, wore 
the yellow Star of David and helped their Jews escape to Sweden.  Yugoslavia 
was a hardship post with constant fighting.  The Czechs killed the Nazi 
gauleiters assigned there.  Norway meant you had to live in armed camps and 
the Eastern Front was litle more than a death sentence, but France...  
France was where you got posted if you were a good little Nazi!

Q:  Why do the French plant trees along the side of the road?
A:  So the Germans can march in the shade.

ObTrav - So, from the Vilani point of view, who were the "French" to the 
Terran's "Nazis" during the Interstellar Wars?  The Vegans?  Some other 
human minor race?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 15:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 14:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
Message-ID: <200204112147.DVX03585@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

There's the 100d limit.  Given.

Is there not some safety standoff distance from one jump 
drive to another?  And what would that distance be?  Could 
you make someone misjump (along with yourself)?

I've read in the archive about "grav" generators to bump 
people out of hyperspace, and jump projectors to throw people 
into the middle of nowhere.

But on a simpler level, I feel that one jump field powering 
through a jump would interfere with another, at least at the 
point of departure.  Thoughts?
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:20:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:20:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>
References: <20020411160312.A6708@freeman.little-possums.net> <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020412081911.B9083@freeman.little-possums.net>

jimv wrote:
> Why does h influence the size of the atom?

The size of the atom depends upon the shape of the wavefunction of the
electrons in their ground state.  Roughly speaking, the probability of
finding an electron at a given distance from the atom starts to drop
off sharply at a distance determined by the relations of quantum
mechanics.  Those relation involve h.


> Also, how do we know that h is a fundamental constant and not
> dependant on the factors we might be changing (i.e. fundamental
> forces) with the intertial suppression scheme?

We don't.  The only problem is that if you change h (and everything
associated with it) to fit the requirement that people remain alive,
you get the result that nothing changes at all, including how much
acceleration the ship can take or how much power it takes to
accelerate it.


> I presume m_e is mass of electron and q_e is charge of the electron.
> pi is 'pi', and h is plank's.  I'm not sure what eps_0... something
> about the electrostatic attraction?

Yes; the electrostatic attractive force between two charges is
proportional to 1/(4 pi eps_0).  It is usually written as a greek
epsilon symbol with a subscript 0, but that's not possible in ASCII.


> Are you saying that by reducing the mass, the orbitals of the electrons
> are going to be larger?

If you don't change Planck's constant, yes.  The equation governing
the wavefunction of the electron (or any other thing, for that matter)
has a factor of (h^2 / 2 m) in it.  So the mass affects the shape.  It
turns out that if you reduce the mass and energy levels by a factor of
100, the distances increase by a factor of 100^2.


> Basically, what I'm driving at here, is if you dropped the values of
> the fundamental forces, would planck's constant also change as a
> result of that?

It appears not.  Planck's constant seems to be more fundamental than
the strengths of various forces.


> Well, I'm sorta torn between this idea and Alcubierre's FTL (space
> warping) idea, but we've discussed that one a few months ago, and
> if I remember correctly, you made the contention that it leads to
> wormholes and time travel, which we really don't want to deal with.

;^>  I can be a party-pooper, can't I?

Though I actually like the idea of FTL causality consequences.

Besides, wormholes probably automatically prevent causality paradoxes;
if they approach a configuration in which a closed timelike path
exists, zero-interval feedback may well destroy the wormholes involved
before you actually get any time travel effects.  This is a serious
conjecture in physics.  It also opens up interesting possibilities in
the game universe -- someone might do this deliberately for political
or military reasons.


> I'm shooting for something with a hard-SF feel.

You can still have FTL or inertial suppression with a hard-SF feel,
you just need to consider the consequences that physics geeks like me
are going to pick up, or alternatively try not go into details at all.
A rule of thumb is that you're allowed one big violation of
physics-as-we-know-it so long as you at least try to predict some of
the side effects.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:27:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:27:11 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>; from jenry023@student.liu.se on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:24:28PM +0200
References: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020411162610.A25877@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:24:28PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>
> Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> parts of the debate to TML chat?

Gun debate?  Do you mean the discussion of weapons useful for
killing/stopping roughly man-size targets?  Seems pretty on-topic to
me...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Asking a girl out is like finding sqrt(pi) using roman numerals.  --unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:30:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:30:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <200204112147.DVX03585@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411182555.01e801d0@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:47 PM 4/11/2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Is there not some safety standoff distance from one jump
>drive to another?  And what would that distance be?

My initial reaction is to say "100 diameters", or in this case, 100 ship 
lengths.  Beyond that distance, the jump field definitely won't be a 
problem.  Between 100 and 10 ship lengths, you've got possible problems, 
and under 10 ship lengths is definitely bad news.

Of course, the danger in this case is to both ships.  I would determine the 
result separately for each ship involved - so that one ship may not jump, 
or could misjump, or be destroyed, while the other ship has a different 
fate.  So you might make the other ship misjump (or you may not), but 
you're just as likely to misjump yourself.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:32:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:32:10 2002
Subject: [TML] FFS2 penetration
Message-ID: <B8DB5CBD.3972C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all.  How does one calculate penetration according FFS2 for small
arm?


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:36:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:36:10 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <200204112235.DVZ01545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>Gun debate?  Do you mean the discussion of weapons useful for
>killing/stopping roughly man-size targets?  Seems pretty on-
>topic to me...
>

Well, technically we could take it to tml-guntech.  We 
already have a considerable amount of discussion over there 
about weapons (what is a snub pistol anyway - go to tml-
guntech and find out..)

I try to have an ObTrav. Should I post my version of the 
combat system on tml or tml-guntech?
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:38:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:38:49 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020410155951.01dc24b0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8DB5E1A.39732%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 1:13 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> Tod, what was the free recoil of that elephant rifle again?  For
> comparison.  I found your earlier calculations on the M1, M16, and gauss
> rifle, which were two orders of magnitude lower and then some compared to
> the above 65 gram bullet.
> 
> Hm, I'm going to have to set up a spreadsheet and plug in numbers for known
> weapons and science fiction weapons from time to time.  Then post on a Web
> site so all interested parties can reference it from time to time.

See my calculator at http://www.travellercentral.com

follow the links to House Rules : Projectile Weapons

(or go straight to http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/ke.html)

I just added penetration for TNE.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:41:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:41:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
Message-ID: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Derek Wildstar says
<snip derek's take on adjacent ships activating their 
hyperdrive>

That sounds pretty good. It means, however, that ships might 
have a minimum separation, which affects fleet actions.

Would we also have another problem a la B5? Starting one jump 
field within another?
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:43:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:43:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DB5EB6.39733%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 5:14 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> My first choice would probably be a .375 H&H. Much though I admire
> Weatherbys they cost too much and are generally over-powered if you're
> using solids - they'd tend to horribly over-penetrate anything but the
> heaviest game. With expansive bullets I'd drop to a .338 Winchester or
> .340 Weatherby unless in Africa, in which case the .375's would be the
> way to go, IMO. .416s and .458/.460s are good vs buffs, elephants, etc.
> but aren't long-range rounds, so you'd need a second rifle for those
> 300-500 yard shots on eland, etc.

Another classic 'smallbore'.  The only problem with the .375 H&H and rounds
based on it is that it requires a magnum length action. One of my alltime
favorites.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411183848.0188fa70@192.168.0.1>

Loren had mentioned a Traveller specific version of the GURPS character 
generation software was being considered.

Is this project a go?  If so, when would it see the light of day?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
           http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:51:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:51:15 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F107XkF81yvoXFMxmyh000181e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:41, Sam D wrote:

> I think this is a very good point.  Whether you are a hunter, acting
> in self defense, a cop or a soldier, your objective should be the
> same.  Despite occassional talk that hunters are content to let a
> wounded deer slip away or are very concerned about damaging too much
> meat, my experience is just the opposite. Most of the hunters I
> know, if an animal does not drop like a sack of bricks, immediately
> start thinking about practicing more or getting a more powerful
> rifle.  In fact, hunters and cops seem to take "stopping power" much
> more seriously than the military. 

To let an animal get away to die slowly over the course of hours or 
days is IMO horribly cruel, and utterly unsportsmanlike. I've had many 
arguments with people over goat culling because of this. For some years 
back in the 90s it was common 'sport' for a couple of guys to drive out 
to the back of a farm with goat problems (getting the owner's 
permission first, of course) and shoot up the goats with semi-auto 
rifles. The most common choices were SKS carbines or semi-auto only 
AK's. It was also common for many to simply fire into a mod of goats 
and then let the survivors wander off, gut shot or with broken legs. 
When I pointed out that this was cruel and that they'd be upset if I 
were to do this to a dog or a deer they'd look blank and say "but 
they're only goats." Then they'd wonder why I wouldn't associate with 
them any more.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 16:53:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:53:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <200204112251.DVZ03066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>Loren had mentioned a Traveller specific version of the 
>GURPS character generation software was being considered.
>
I've got most of the GURPS material, but not GT.  (Ultra 
Tech, Space, but not GT).  

I could get a copy of GT and try my hand at it.  Are there a 
lot of variations from the basic GURPS?  It wouldn't take too 
long to do.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:50:50AM +1200
References: <F107XkF81yvoXFMxmyh000181e3@hotmail.com> <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020411170142.A26003@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:50:50AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> To let an animal get away to die slowly over the course of hours or 
> days is IMO horribly cruel, and utterly unsportsmanlike.

Agreed but...

> When I pointed out that this was cruel and that they'd be upset if I 
> were to do this to a dog or a deer they'd look blank and say "but 
> they're only goats."

In NZ are goats viewed simpy as nuisance animals, or as something
more?  I wouldn't feel overly bad about mortally a shark, snake, wolf
or coyote and leaving it to die, but I'd never do the same for a deer,
duck or other animal.

How much of this is based on perception, I wonder?  The animals I
don't care about I either hate (sharks and snakes) or consider
varmints and pests (wolves & coyotes), whereas the ones I do are ones
I respect.

That said, I cannot see goats as a `nasty' animal (like the feral ones
I mentioned).  Nuisances, but no more than that.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ubi non accusator, ibi non judex.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:04:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
In-Reply-To: <200204112251.DVZ03066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:51:24PM -0400
References: <200204112251.DVZ03066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020411170334.B26003@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:51:24PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> I could get a copy of GT and try my hand at it.  Are there a lot of
> variations from the basic GURPS?  It wouldn't take too long to do.

Probably the most work would be inputting the lists of skills &c.
You'll want to rewrite (not simply paraphrase) the skill descriptions,
as they are copyrighted.  There is a process to get permission to use
them, but I typically prefer that my work be as free as possible of
encumbrances.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"Oh bother," said the Borg, "We've assimilated Pooh."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:06:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:06:11 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 17:24, Jens Rydholm wrote:

> Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> parts of the debate to TML chat?
> 
> Or else I'll begin posting socialist and communist propaganda...
> 
> (not a serious threat, but about as relevant)

But how can guns not be relevant to Traveller? :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:07:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:07:40 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <F99548IlvMTkL01NspD000142b4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6BF68.28920.307BF2@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:54, Sam D wrote:

> You are better off getting a cheap rifle and a more expensive scope.
>  Unless you are a very skilled rifleman, a decent scope (either 4x,
> 2-7 or 3-9) is a great asset.  Nice binocs are also important. 

Also with a scope it's a good idea to get one in which the objective 
lens size divided by the power (for a vari-power about mid-range will 
do for this) is 7mm or more. Less than this and the light gathering 
capacity isn't the best, no matter how clear the optics, and the 
scope's utility will drop off quickly in poor light conditions. Thus 
4x32 is adequate, 4x40 is very nice (though more than 8-10mm is more 
than your eye can use) and 6x32 not the best.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:10:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:10:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F70SDx1kLwxTQTYkWSz00001108@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6C056.18523.341AE7@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 15:31, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Yeah, I've got to think this over even more.  To my mind, minor
> race rebellions aided and abetted by Terran infiltrators should be a
> big part of the Interstellar Wars.  There would have been uprisings
> and sabotage a sector or so "behind" the fighting front and the
> minor race allies providing the lower-TL cannon fodder for the
> Alliance's offensives. 

That would certainly make sense once things got going (say after IW4 or 
thereabouts).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:11:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:11:44 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <F56z8kI063RA5C2duii00023931@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6C056.6241.341BB4@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 18:05, Sam D wrote:

> Justin Kim said:
> 
> >	5.7x28mm.  Supposed to be able to penetrate PASGT kevlar
> >helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target
> >(titanium and kevlar) at 200m.  Bullet weight of 2.02g and a muzzle
> >velocity of 715m/s.
> 
> Is that a FN pistol round?  Are they talking about using it in anything 
> other than a pistol?
> 
> There was a lot of heartache going from .45 to 9m; can you imagine the howls 
> if they went to a .22 pistol?

No, it's for their personal defence weapon, the P90. Basically it's a 
late 1990s take on the SMG, but using a cut down rifle round rather 
than a pistol round, so it has a much better effective range than a 
normal SMG. They're the toys being used in the later seasons of 
Stargate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <p05101503b8db8ae2c7f1@[10.0.1.10]>
References: <B8DB214E.3960A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6C0AF.31055.357841@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:55, Justin Kim wrote:

> 	It's supposed to leave large nasty wound cavities in the 
> target.  The website I referenced in my last post used to have a 
> picture of the track the round left in a block of ballistic gelatin. 
> I'm a complete novice, but it looked unpleasant to me :)
> 
> 	The 5.7x28mm round was designed to replace the 9mm because of 
> the 9mm's poor armor penetrating capabilities.

However most gun-nuts I know have come to the conclusion that it's 
better than a pistol, but nothing near as good as the 5.56x45mm at just 
about anything, especially wounding.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:16:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:16:52 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
In-Reply-To: <200204110036.DUH01412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DB66BD.3974E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/10/02 5:36 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> I'm trying to make up my mind between the .375 and the .338.
> Since I'm in N. America, it may be the .338.

For NA, .338 is going to be fine, unless you're in Alaska and shooting moose
and polar bear.  Even then, you could probably manage alright.

Given you predilection for sniping, I'm surprised you didn't mention the
.338 Lapua.
> 
> The situations that Traveller characters find themselves in
> are rarely more than a few opponents, and most are armed
> (depending on the GM, of course) with pistols and short range
> weapons.  In one past campaign, I did rather well with a
> single-shot falling block rifle in .375 H&H.  I was playing a
> PH, and this was my "walking about" rifle.  I was infamous
> for killing three other player characters by shooting down
> their custom air raft (first shot hit the driver through the
> front, the second shot disabled the powerplant and the other
> two plummeted to their deaths).
> 
> If you also consider that Traveller gun combat is at about
> the same range as a Cape Buffalo encounter, and you're
> probably going to live for about as many shots (two, maybe
> three), then I think that whatever makes a good Cape Buffalo
> weapon might make a good Traveller combat weapon.
> 
> Let's see.  We'll make it .416 Remington, since we can still
> get Speer tungsten core solids.
> 
> The rifle should be a 4-shot controlled-feed pre-64
> Winchester action (with fixed ejector).  Barrel length should
> be 22 inches, and we'll go with a muzzle brake.  The stock
> should be optimized for firing on your hind legs, and we'll
> put a Trijicon Reflex sight on top, with express sights just
> in case that gets broken.

The new Winchester 'Classic' has controlled feed, and IIRC a fixed ejector.
But go first class and get one of Pete Grissel's Dakotas.  I think I pick a
ghost ring over express sights for adventuring.  Maybe 1x LER scope mounted
scout-like.
> 
> A PH should be able to get two or three quick aimed shots off
> with something like this.  I haven't seen many Traveller-
> style combats last more than a few combat rounds. And you'll
> only have to hit another human *once* with something like
> this.  Tod might make it a .458, though.

Maybe .470NE in a Searcy double rifle.  Two *really* quick shots, and reload
speed is not too bad if you practice.  Of course you have to have the gun
regulated for the planet and area your on.

For Armored targets, there always the .577NE in the double gun.
> 
> Get yourself a pouch that holds 20 rounds, maybe keep 40
> rounds in your pack.  More than enough for most Traveller
> adventures.


More numbers, 'cause it's more gearhead like:
(Stats are for TNE - FFS.  Loads are from A-Square's "Any Shot You Want")

Weapon  KE      RE  Dam   Recoil    Pen
.223    1801    4   3       3       1-Nil
.308    3536    19  4       4       2-3-Nil
.338    5526    50  6       6       2-4-6
.375    6097    64  6       6       2-4-6
.416    7232    80  6       6       2-4-6
.458    7090    87  6       6       2-4-6
.460    9780   146  7       7       2-4-6
.577NE  9042   167  6       6       2-4-6
.577TR  13188  197  8       7       2-3-4
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:19:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:19:15 2002
Subject: [TML] News from Delphi
References: <20020410143005.F2EB127AB3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB61A54.E69EDB1@together.net>

> From: "Graham Donald" <gndonald@hotmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:11:56 +0800
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I was wondering how is the Delphi history project going, I looked at their
> site, but it hasn't been updated since 2000.
> 

	I'm not sure of which site you are looking at, but the Delphi project
continues. The main project board is on JTAS (http://jtas.sjgames.com/
), become a subscriber if you are not already. 
	February 5th issue of JTAS contains the Delphi Foundation document, an
article describing the history, including a set of maps showing the
historical progression of colonization in the sector, a description of
some of the nobility, and a few of the more predominate groups. 

	The landgrab has begun, with a few worlds claimed and more ideas tossed
around. In addition to the foundation document, I also have a summary of
the discussions up to the point of the the writing of the foundation
document. 

	So, if you'd like to do a landgrab, but without having explain 20 years
of canon, or would like a more settled sector to play in come on over to
Delphi. The nice, safe core of the Imperium. 
-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:21:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:21:11 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <20020411135544.A25603@4dv.net>
References: <3CB63B80.12868.A3A001@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200
Message-ID: <3CB6C311.15964.3EC7C1@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 13:55, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > 
> > Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle 
> > you like the look of.
> 
> Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
> _ugly_:-(

I rather like Ruger's line of stainless and synthetics. The almost 
skeletal green stocks look quite cool, IMO.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:30:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:30:10 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <20020411170142.A26003@4dv.net>
References: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:50:50AM +1200
Message-ID: <3CB6C54B.24759.4779CF@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 17:01, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> > When I pointed out that this was cruel and that they'd be upset if I 
> > were to do this to a dog or a deer they'd look blank and say "but 
> > they're only goats."
> 
> In NZ are goats viewed simpy as nuisance animals, or as something
> more?  I wouldn't feel overly bad about mortally a shark, snake, wolf
> or coyote and leaving it to die, but I'd never do the same for a deer,
> duck or other animal.

A serious nuisance - feral goats damage farmland near bush, and do a 
_lot_ of damage to native bush, as do opossums and wasps - all imports. 
Deer move from vermin to game and back again, depending on how many 
there are and on politics.
 
> How much of this is based on perception, I wonder?  The animals I
> don't care about I either hate (sharks and snakes) or consider
> varmints and pests (wolves & coyotes), whereas the ones I do are ones
> I respect.
> 
> That said, I cannot see goats as a `nasty' animal (like the feral ones
> I mentioned).  Nuisances, but no more than that.

Whereas I don't see any reason why the morality of leaving animals to 
suffer should depend on their 'pleasantness' or the worthiness as game.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:31:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:31:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DB5EB6.39733%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB57E16.11953.A3FDF3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB6C54B.322.477957@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 15:39, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Another classic 'smallbore'.  The only problem with the .375 H&H and
> rounds based on it is that it requires a magnum length action. One of
> my alltime favorites. 

I've never been that impressed by arguments for this round or that 
round based on action length. IME the speed of an action has more to do 
with it's overall design than it's length, and 'short stroking' occurs 
when people get cute and try to speed their reload up by not drawing 
the bolt all the way to the rear. The fastest reliable reload, 
regardless of action length, is to draw the bolt back until it stops, 
than push forward and down in one smooth motion. It's that simple.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:34:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:34:11 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <3CB6C311.15964.3EC7C1@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DB6B04.39757%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 4:20 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

>> 
>> Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
>> _ugly_:-(
> 
> I rather like Ruger's line of stainless and synthetics. The almost
> skeletal green stocks look quite cool, IMO.

I go all over the place.  I like the look of a well made synthetic stock.
Not the plastic injection-molded ones, but the laminated  ones like H-S
Precision, Griffen and Bell and the like.

Nothing beats wood for looks though.  I have several nice pieces of walnut,
one Bubinga and one Cocobolo waiting to be inletted.  Cocobolo is very
beautiful, heavy, tough and expensive.  I wanted to bring the weight of my
.458 up and decided on a dense wood rather than a mercury recoil reducer.
The wood is georgeous.  Now to wait a year or two so it dries properly.

If things gel, my wife we get sent to the international law enforcement
academy in Botswana. If that happens, you know where I'll be. :)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 17:37:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:37:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
References: <200204111918.DVS00303@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d601c1e1b1$c48e36c0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Niches


> shadow@krypton.rain.com says
> >
> >That pushes the 1 kJ pulse to *gigawatt* power levels in the 
> >rifle. Even if it's only for a microsecond, a gigawatt is a 
> lot of power.
> >
> You should realize then the power of the current smokeless 
> powder cartridges.  We're raising 5 to 8 kJ (depending on 
> caliber) in seven-tenths of a millisecond.

5kJ in 0.0007s =>   7.14 MW
8kJ in 0.0007s => 11.43 MW

So you have about 100 times less power...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:00:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:00:15 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
In-Reply-To: <B8DB6B04.39757%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB6C311.15964.3EC7C1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB6CC2B.3222.6256C7@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 16:32, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Nothing beats wood for looks though.  I have several nice pieces of walnut,
> one Bubinga and one Cocobolo waiting to be inletted.  Cocobolo is very
> beautiful, heavy, tough and expensive.  I wanted to bring the weight of my
> .458 up and decided on a dense wood rather than a mercury recoil reducer.
> The wood is georgeous.  Now to wait a year or two so it dries properly.

My father has a Swedish Mauser from 1899, and it has the most amazing 
tiger-stripe stock. The first thing we said when we saw it was "Now 
don't you wish you could put that stock on the .30-06?"
 
> If things gel, my wife we get sent to the international law enforcement
> academy in Botswana. If that happens, you know where I'll be. :)

Sitting at home minding the kids, of course.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:01:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:01:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <00d601c1e1b1$c48e36c0$52200050@matt>
References: <200204111918.DVS00303@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <00d601c1e1b1$c48e36c0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020412095904.A9693@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> 8kJ in 0.0007s => 11.43 MW
> 
> So you have about 100 times less power...

The best figures I've seen require about 20 MW for a laser weapon.  1
kJ in a microsecond is bad because you only get a surface explosion,
no penetration at all.  1 kJ in 100 pulses of about half a microsecond
each is much better.

Besides, I've personally built a laser that produces a pulse with a
power of about a gigawatt.  If properly made, it could fit into pistol
size.  Peak power means nothing.  Pulse *energies* and *sustained*
power are what makes weapon lasers difficult to build.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:04:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:04:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB6C54B.322.477957@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8DB71E0.3977B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 4:30 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> I've never been that impressed by arguments for this round or that
> round based on action length. IME the speed of an action has more to do
> with it's overall design than it's length, and 'short stroking' occurs
> when people get cute and try to speed their reload up by not drawing
> the bolt all the way to the rear. The fastest reliable reload,
> regardless of action length, is to draw the bolt back until it stops,
> than push forward and down in one smooth motion. It's that simple.

It has more to do with the scarcity of magnum length actions that are
suitable for dangerous game.  Thankfully, Winchester has brought out the
'classic' action and some good stuff is coming in from Brno.  Sorry,
Remington just doesn't cut it and I don't care for Ruger.  That diagonal
screw is worthless.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:10:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:10:10 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <3CB6C54B.24759.4779CF@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:30:19AM +1200
References: <3CB6BC0A.26189.235194@localhost>; <20020411170142.A26003@4dv.net> <3CB6C54B.24759.4779CF@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020411180903.A26285@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 11:30:19AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Whereas I don't see any reason why the morality of leaving animals to 
> suffer should depend on their 'pleasantness' or the worthiness as game.

I should point out that I'd not deliberately mis-hit the animals on my
hate-list, or even leave them to suffer; it's just that I wouldn't
track 'em down to deliver a mercy shot, whereas I would try to for the
better animals.  Rapid-firing into a herd of goats is right out.
About the only animals I'd even consider that about are sharks.  I
hate sharks.  And even then I'd poss. not condone it.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I can see an opening for the Four Lusers of the Apocalypse: `I didn't
change anything'; `My e-mail doesn't work';  `I can't print' and `Is the
network broken?'                                          --Paul McAuley

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:22:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:22:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: thickness of body, wound tracks
In-Reply-To: <B8DB71E0.3977B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB6C54B.322.477957@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB6D156.3272.7687E7@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 17:01, Tod Glenn wrote:

> It has more to do with the scarcity of magnum length actions that are
> suitable for dangerous game.  Thankfully, Winchester has brought out the
> 'classic' action and some good stuff is coming in from Brno.  Sorry,
> Remington just doesn't cut it and I don't care for Ruger.  That diagonal
> screw is worthless.

I've liked all the Ruger's I've handled, and not because of the screw, 
either. They've pointed fairly well, had decent triggers (for an out-of-
the-box rifle in their price range) and smooth actions. They also look 
pretty good to me (YMMV) and were accurate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:47:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:47:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Battledress TL 10?
In-Reply-To: <4b.1b7f2094.29e70e82@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411172243.009f1c90@mindspring.com>

--=====================_9693781==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 12:06 PM 4/11/02 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet
>cover.  In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar.
>
>   And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the first 
> place? The Lt. maybe? lol!

No, it was just part of the 3-color woodland cammo on the helmet 
cover.  Completely random.  But useful at night.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
--=====================_9693781==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 12:06 PM 4/11/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite><font face="arial" size=2>From:
Douglas Berry &lt;gridlore@mindspring.com&gt; <br><br>
I knew a guy with a very conveniently placed brown stripe on his helmet
<br>
cover.&nbsp; In dim light, it looked like a lieutenant's bar. <br><br>
&nbsp; And I wonder just who thought of putting the stripe there in the
first place? The Lt. maybe? lol! </font></blockquote><br>
No, it was just part of the 3-color woodland cammo on the helmet
cover.&nbsp; Completely random.&nbsp; But useful at night.<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="arial" size=2>--<br><br>
Douglas E. Berry&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
gridlore@mindspring.com<br>
<a href="http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html" eudora="autourl">http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.</a><a href="http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html" eudora="autourl">html<br>
</a><a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/" eudora="autourl">http://</a>www.livejournal<a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/" eudora="autourl">.com/users/gridlore/</a><br><br>
&quot;Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it<br>
sounds like they're snoring.&quot; - Harvey Danger</font></html>

--=====================_9693781==_.ALT--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:48:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:48:39 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020411162610.A25877@4dv.net>
References: <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020411172428.67119fc7.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411172651.009f1230@mindspring.com>

At 04:26 PM 4/11/02 -0600, you wrote:
>On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:24:28PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> >
> > Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> > parts of the debate to TML chat?
>
>Gun debate?  Do you mean the discussion of weapons useful for
>killing/stopping roughly man-size targets?  Seems pretty on-topic to
>me...

Maybe at first, but it has long past the point where there is any 
game-usable material.

I agree, either private mail or TML-chat.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 18:51:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:51:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <200204120047.DWD04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>Probably the most work would be inputting the lists of 
>skills &c. You'll want to rewrite (not simply paraphrase) 
>the skill descriptions, as they are copyrighted.  There is a 
>process to get permission to use them, but I typically 
>prefer that my work be as free as possible of
>encumbrances.
>

I wouldn't mind the following: I write it exactly to the 
specs.  We get approval for a time-limited playtest - they 
say it's good, and they distribute it.  If they make 
anything,  I get a piece.  If it's for free, then I get my 
name on the package.

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:06:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:06:10 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
Message-ID: <200204120105.DWD07544@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Given you predilection for sniping, I'm surprised you didn't 
>mention the .338 Lapua.

In the Sako rifle?  Probably.  But then again, I'm trying to 
get into a different niche.  Ever try to find the .338 Lapua 
at the store? Oh, that's right, you're in Oregon...

The main reason I handload is that Maryland State Law has 
funny rules - you can't sell the latest types of ammunition 
that a manufacturer produces without "approval" (there is a 
similar thing for models of handgun - new models of handgun 
are very rarely approved for sale - it took four years for 
the Encore to appear in Maryland).

>But go first class and get one of Pete Grissel's Dakotas.  I 
>think I pick a ghost ring over express sights for 
>adventuring.  Maybe 1x LER scope mounted
>scout-like.

I can get a Dakota action in the white from Brownell's and 
put the thing together myself.  Then I could send it out to 
get blued.  I'm not yet willing to do the really dirty work 
like bluing.

Ah, now I have it.  By your charts, the .338 is a good 
compromise. Did they ever make the Valmet 412 in .338?  It's 
been discontinued, but it makes a fast two shots.

You could, when it was sold, get extra barrel combinations 
for the same receiver.  So I could get a "shorty" double-12, 
loaded with SCIMTR for shipboard use.  Get the double .338 
for outside work.  And double .460 for pesky critters.

It's too bad the Krag action isn't that strong.  I really 
like that ability to top off the magazine without opening the 
weapon.

If I was playing in your campaign, I think I would be a PH, 
and would probably have a brace of doubles as per above.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:12:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:12:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Matthew Bond" says
<snip laser power>

I think I did a laser calculation on tml-guntech
which has a 6.8kJ laser in 0.7 milliseconds (not 
microseconds) that is more than capable of penetrating 30cm 
of flesh.  The assumption was made that I would be vaporizing 
a column of water, in 0.7 milliseconds, and that the target 
spot would be 1mm x 1mm.  We came up with 1000 times the 
power required to do the minimum vaporization and it came
out to 6.8 kJ.

So, it's the same as the .338.

Wavelength is 1.3nm, using a overtone deuterium flouride 
laser.  
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
In-Reply-To: <200204120105.DWD07544@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6DDB7.14961.A6E275@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002 at 21:05, John T. Kwon wrote:

> It's too bad the Krag action isn't that strong.  I really 
> like that ability to top off the magazine without opening the 
> weapon.

How about a weapon like the Lee-Enfields in which there was a cut-off 
over the magazine. You engaged the cut-off so that the rounds could be 
fed from the magazine and loaded shots individually when you weren't i 
a hurry. When the sh*t went everywhere you'd disengage the cut-off and 
have a full magazine available.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:46:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:46:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Written by the Victors (was: Matters of Will)
In-Reply-To: <20020412005325.F414D27A9A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020411183439.00a4cec0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 19:20:27, "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> 
wrote:

>     The Terrans had help, and lots of it.

Not to mention their microscopic buddies - "the humblest creatures which 
God, in His wisdom, placed upon the Earth."  :)

But bacteria and minor races don't edit library data, and so, a thousand 
years and change later, the popular history has it that the Brave and 
Ingenious Terrans somehow managed to hold out for centuries against the 
full might of the Empire, then miraculously sweep over it to throw down the 
hated Vilani Overlords in mere decades.  (And then promptly fumbled the 
ball themselves, but the Solomani don't like to talk about that part.)

The academics know better, of course, but who ever listens to crazy old 
scholars?  Aside from down-on-their-luck free trader crews, that is.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 19:59:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 18:59:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the
 list)
In-Reply-To: <200204120047.DWD04967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411215441.02284008@192.168.0.1>

At 08:47 PM 4/11/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>"Robert A. Uhl" says
> >Probably the most work would be inputting the lists of
> >skills &c. You'll want to rewrite (not simply paraphrase)
> >the skill descriptions, as they are copyrighted.  There is a
> >process to get permission to use them, but I typically
> >prefer that my work be as free as possible of
> >encumbrances.
>I wouldn't mind the following: I write it exactly to the
>specs.  We get approval for a time-limited playtest - they
>say it's good, and they distribute it.  If they make
>anything,  I get a piece.  If it's for free, then I get my
>name on the package.

Why reinvent the wheel here?
SJG already has a very nice character creation program (ok, so may you guys 
wanna do a LINUX port).
Ok, so the nice part is MHO from playing with the demo version.
What Loren was talking about before was the program they have tailored to 
Traveller.
Plus a big bonus of some method of generating/converting characters for 
other flavors of Traveller:
CT, Mega:T, TNE, T4...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:08:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:08:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Road Testers Needed and PBEM advice
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411024937.01dc7010@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020412020513.B8D47279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/11/02 at 02:50 AM,  laning <laning@wizard.net> said:

>Wow, hadn't realized that 'Salon' had already visited the PBEM world.

>Thanks for the good URLs.

You're welcome. 

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:19:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:19:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for Loren (or other SJG employees on the list)
Message-ID: <200204120218.DWG00159@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>
>What Loren was talking about before was the program they 
>have tailored to Traveller.
>Plus a big bonus of some method of generating/converting 
>characters for other flavors of Traveller:
>CT, Mega:T, TNE, T4...
>

That's what I'm talking about.  No sense in writing the GURPS 
thingie again.  But a Traveller generator.  Might be nice to 
have one that did all systems from beginning to end.
________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:21:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:21:37 2002
Subject: [TML] [PROPOSAL] The Fornast Project
Message-ID: <LAW2-F100BKhwWn5WNW000021c5@hotmail.com>

The Fornast Project

I was wondering whether anyone would be interested in helping to detail 
Fornast Sector in the same way & using the same procedures/guidelines as the 
Delphi Project.

As a startpoint, there are the maps & UWP's at Anthony's Maps Site 
(http://maps.grandsurvey.com). Also whatever canon information was 
published.

A quick scan of the names indicates that people of Solomani descent had a 
major hand in naming the sector, several worlds appear to have been named 
for authors, artists and locations on Terra.

If anyone is interested in joining me, please contact me directly at 
gndonald@hotmail.com, use the subject heading [FORNAST].

Graham


This is the Universe ... Big isn't it?


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:48:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:48:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space 
travel, etc.?

________________
"This is the law: The purpose of 
fighting is to win. There is no 
possible victory in defense. The sword 
is more important than the shield and 
skill is more important than either. 
The final weapon is the brain. All else 
is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:55:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:55:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020411225254.019d0e50@192.168.0.1>

Is this for a PBEM or a F2F?

At 10:46 PM 4/11/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
>Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space
>travel, etc.?
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 20:59:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 19:59:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120258.DWH03019@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin asks
>
>Is this for a PBEM or a F2F?

PBEM.  The F2F will be coming in May.
________________
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http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:22:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:22:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <F156LszeIOVn1KL99o200017a04@hotmail.com>

Traveller optics reflect (suprise) what was available in the 1970s.  
Basically, you are getting a hunting scope.

Since then, combat optics have become light and tough enough for general 
issue, and have basically developed along two lines.  First, the "dot" type, 
like the Aimpoint Comp M or Trijicon Reflex, have no magnification but 
vastly increase the speed of target acquision versus irons.  The second 
type, like the ELCAN or Trijicon ACOG, are low magnification scopes (in the 
1.5 to 4 power range) which give greater precision at longer range and 
probably also have slightly increased speed over irons at short range.  With 
either type of optic, you shoot with both eyes open and the recticle glows.

How could these two very different types of optics be integrated into 
Traveller?  They seem to be a pretty important development, but our poor 
heroes in the 53rd century are still stuck with iron sight or the vague 
supersight on the ACR & Gauss Rifle.  I looked over the CT rules and there 
is no provision for having a "fast" weapon, when that is probably pretty 
important.  Do other versions have weapon speed?

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:34:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:34:28 2002
Subject: [TML] gun of choice
Message-ID: <F114GuOJ75lRN8aK38o0000ff5e@hotmail.com>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:

>On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:42:24AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> >
> > Another point, which may work against a synthetic stock - get a rifle
> > you like the look of.
>
>Yeah.  That's part of the problem.  Synthetic is cheaper, but it's so
>_ugly_:-(

Call me klutz, but I am so rough on guns that I am afraid to take the woods 
out of the safe.  There is also a certain utilitarian beauty to a synthetic 
stock.  Plus, in case no one has noticed, I kind of like black rifles.  ;)

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:35:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:35:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <200204120333.DWJ00923@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>With either type of optic, you shoot with both eyes open and 
>the recticle glows.
>

When I shoot with the Leupold Mark V M3, I shoot with both 
eyes open.  It has no glowing reticle.  If you're closing 
your eyes when using a scope, you're making yourself very 
uncomfortable and reducing your peripheral vision. Makes it 
hard to use a scope on a running target.

>How could these two very different types of optics be 
>integrated into Traveller?  

The combat system *sucks*.  If you see the rules for increase 
in aim modifier by time spent aiming in PCCS, and combine 
that with maximum ballistic accuracy at each range, you get 
an extremely accurate picture of how much quicker certain 
weapons and sighting systems can be at various ranges, and 
how much benefit they provide at various ranges.  The detail 
is so well done that you can actually differentiate between 
weapons.

There is nothing like this in Traveller.  The arguments that 
you see us have about "this weapon and sight" vs. "that 
weapon and sight" actually translate into the model in PCCS.

OTOH, the character generation in PCCS *sucks*
________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 21:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 20:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] PC's with Big Game Rifles
In-Reply-To: <200204120105.DWD07544@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DBA6E8.397D0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 6:05 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
>> Given you predilection for sniping, I'm surprised you didn't
>> mention the .338 Lapua.
> 
> In the Sako rifle?  Probably.  But then again, I'm trying to
> get into a different niche.  Ever try to find the .338 Lapua
> at the store? Oh, that's right, you're in Oregon...

Actually, I like the Accuracy International.

> I can get a Dakota action in the white from Brownell's and
> put the thing together myself.  Then I could send it out to
> get blued.  I'm not yet willing to do the really dirty work
> like bluing.

Gonna turn your own barrel and everything?  I build rifles all the time.  I
wouldn't care to try to match the stock fitting they do at Dakota.
> 
> Ah, now I have it.  By your charts, the .338 is a good
> compromise. Did they ever make the Valmet 412 in .338?  It's
> been discontinued, but it makes a fast two shots.
>
How about a Browning BAR (the civilian one) in .338.  I see they're still
making them.  4 quick shots.  Believe it on not, I've seen a BAR rebarreled
to .458.
> 
> It's too bad the Krag action isn't that strong.  I really
> like that ability to top off the magazine without opening the
> weapon.

One locking lug
> 
> If I was playing in your campaign, I think I would be a PH,
> and would probably have a brace of doubles as per above.

I run a PH myself.  He's an NPC now.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020412135535.A10116@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> The assumption was made that I would be vaporizing 
> a column of water, in 0.7 milliseconds, and that the target 
> spot would be 1mm x 1mm.  We came up with 1000 times the 
> power required to do the minimum vaporization and it came
> out to 6.8 kJ.

That's odd, I get 500 J/m for minimum-energy vaporization of water in
such a column.  Multiplying that by 0.3 metres and a factor of 1000
gives me 150 kJ.

In general, the problem with single-pulse lasers is that the vapour
(and/or plasma) absorbs and/or scatters most of the incoming energy.
Even for a 1 mm spot size and relatively long 0.7 ms pulse, you'll
mainly get a surface crater rather than a drilled hole because most of
the energy is scattered and absorbed outside the target.

The easiest way to avoid this is to lengthen the pulses until plasma
heating isn't an issue any more, but this means that the target will
probably move too far during the "pulse".

The next easiest is to have many very short pulses that cause
miniature explosions, and enough time between pulses for most of the
products to clear (in the first few pulses near the surface) or widen
the damage channel (in later pulses).  Rather than vaporization, the
primary damage mechanism becomes kinetic energy of the products.  This
is more effective on living targets, since it takes a *lot* more
energy to vaporize tissue or bone than to tear or break it.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:11:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:11:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <F626HHGNZ4mF1IT18ol00001f93@hotmail.com>

What is PCCS?

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:11:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:11:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409230210.02210390@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204121200450.15966-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Derek:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> Good scenario hook.

 Thank You

> IMTU, there are Imperial standards for data storage and media, mainly
> promulgated by the Scout Service.  This is not a standard in the sense that
> all equipment is required by law to support it, but rather a de-facto
> standard in the sense that the IISS X-boat system uses a specific set of
> formats to transfer messages.

 Funny but I would personally thing that to be the case in this reality.
But I learned from a Coast Guard friend that they  train for some work on
Max. Then have a Unix/Lynix system in the field. I know that the holywood
special effects people love the Amiga and Light Wave prg. The Amiga
version. Remembering that in 93 Speilburg <sp?> was offering full new
price for old 1200s and 400s just to have a stock pile of the Amiga
special-custom chips. I know from a Video made by an Amiga Group, that I
had to return. That Nasa uses Amiga 1200s and Amiga 4000s. Recently I
learened that the IRS doesn't keep  old Windrone machines. So the records
kept say on a Winblown 95v1 is not viewable by the IRS. Keep that in mind
for an audit. Got that from the H&R block people in town.

 Personally and this is for MTU rebirth. I see things as being very
chaotic.By that I mean for example. Take the  computer wars of the 1908s.
FWIW the computers won <BG> I sold TRS <a.k.a. TRaSh> 80s for Rasio Shack
as a local tech. OK it is a known fact that Billy hates. But he did sell
his "Basic OS" to Jack Tramiel creator of Commodore and all rights for
$7500 <I'll send the e-mail addy of the man that was there to any one that
asks, Mr. Jim Butterfield>. The TRS 80, C=64, PET, Vic-20, C-16, Plus/4,
C=128, PC II, Colt. Those save the thr TRS 80 all being 8 bit C= modles.
These all had different forms of Basic as an OS along with a built in
interpreter.

 O.K. add the different Apples, Atarai, Franklin, Osborne <sp?> and for
the U.K. members I will mention the Speccy <Spectrum: flame wars on
comp.sys.cbm about this one> Each had a different basic. To the point that
they wer pretty much incompatible with each other. I know that ther were
other models using other Basic formats and loading. I know that my
prefered PC system uses GCR formatiing. I think another one is called MFD,
but am not certain of the title.

 Now take all of those and what I missed. Add to that the IBuM system
starting from the Pc jr. to current. All the differeent versions of the
windoze NT and ## themes. I mean can you today on the X thing read a disk
from a PC jr  on original media/format?

 Then add to all of that the number of imperial worlds and Independent
worlds. We won't ask about Darrians, Sword Worldsm hiver or the Zho. <BG>

 You did bring up a point that I was alluding to, a standard for Imperial
ships. Though the used Gazelle may not have even if it is a Fiery variant
<most popular IMTU> the current system. If this system is based off the
windoze. Then it is impossible to read a 20+ old disk. Even if Imperial.
Yeah I am a Wintel Basher and proud of it. <SEG> In a game concept. What I
am wondering as an example. Say your game in CT is in in 1105. Your ship
is 1095 era. Rather new for a team I know. But the disk you uncover.
Though Imperial is from say 1075. Based on todays theorem of disposable
computers. How can the competer man on the ship read it? <A> the equipment
<B> the current skill of the compter man. Does though make a great sotry
line. Now if you add the local tech level flavour on a computer and for
the use of the citizens of the planet in question..... Oy such Tsuris!

> It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the
> Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of
> pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding
> and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of
> languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate,
> lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications
> protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of
> getting messages into and out of the system.

 Point well stated. Computer incompatibilities would make the Imperiaum
fall apart. Before the MT saga. Pardon me for using the Commodore as an
example platform in this part. It is however the only one that I know to
any degree. On the concept of  being standard for msg and images. I see a
parrel to the C= PC platform. Take this msg that I am writing. Written in
PINE 4.44 my e-mail system. Sent out in ASCII. Though my actual system
uses the PET ascii as it's default system. HTML though for a msg does bug
me and a lot of people. On my system it presents all the commands as well
as the msg. Yet I can use a prg from last year called Wave B2.9 <still
Beta> that allows me to read in 80c HTML. In fact my book mark file is
converted that way. JOs a free Beta Test DL also will read on screen HTML.

 Images: I can veiw off line GIF and JPG files. Also I can pritn them
through Post Script and even EPS <Encapsulated Post Script> Images. There
is a tool that I haven't had yet to use. That will convert PDF to PS for
my use and zip it in PK2.04g zip. A format that I can also use in packing
and unpacking. All on a 1984 PC.

 My point of the above is that there is probably that there are those that
will upgrade the hardware and software for their system. As is being done
for mine. Though admittedly along a different vector than the windrone
system.

> The net result should be similar to the modern Internet - any computer
> manufacturer who hopes to have any significant market share at all ensures
> that their equipment can read and write the standard media and formats, and
> can speak the standard protocols.  This doesn't prevent the manufacturers
> from building machines that also support proprietary encoding and
> formats.  However, if you're stuck with a data chip in one of those
> formats, your best bet is to try to find the machine that wrote it, and
> copy the data to a standard format.

 As i showed above. There would be those that would create ways to use the
systems to see the new items. Though I do have a tendency to bristle at
the term "standard". Been a victim of that erronous ideaology many times
in many situations. I do think that some sort of "chip" is needed for the
interchange of Imperial  material. Though there are probaly PRGs to
convert the material to local standards. As i have tools to convert Ascii
to PET ascii. Or the ability to log onto a BBS or even here with Ansi
colours. Making the material sutible for the local inhabitants and the
systems that they are using. The question is the reverse possible? Which
is where the  story plot originated.

 Using today as an example. Can the Windoze users here read a file that I
make? Well some of them they can. The previously mentioned gwimport.exe
file. But that is only for text, not the images. There are emulators if
the file is make in that format <.D64, .D71, .D81> But only work if the
user hs the tool to use the files. Vice 1.8 IIRC. So I would suggest that
something in the reverse that is from local to Imperial would need to have
ben created. Or t here is some sort of thing. Like you mentioned the Inet.
Where the ability to collect items of interest is found in some form of
compatible mannerism.

 Though I sincerly doubt that the Imperium would alow any sort of history
revisionist group such as micro$oft to maintian such a terrorist strangle
hold on things.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:11:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:11:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <20020410.001437.-391371.2.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204121246530.15966-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:


 Davmoh Casan?????

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411234005.01fed258@mail.qrc.com>

At 06:38 PM 4/11/2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
>That sounds pretty good. It means, however, that ships might
>have a minimum separation, which affects fleet actions.

Compared to weapon ranges or the movement scale of the Traveller ship to 
ship combat board games, a separation of 100 ship lengths is insignificant 
(required ship to ship separations are going to be on the order of 
10km-100km; ship combat scales are on the order of 
10,000km-100,000km).  It'd take a pretty large fleet for the separations to 
make the formation extend out of a single Brilliant Lances hex, for example.

>Starting one jump field within another?

I would assume that "actually inside one another" is a special case of "too 
close" presumably the separation between the drives in this case would be 
one on the order of a ship length or less - the rough equivalent of 
attempting a jump from a planetary surface.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:22:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
Message-ID: <200204120421.DWL00090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" asks
>
>What is PCCS?

Phoenix Command Combat System.  There is no substitute.
________________
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http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:31:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Game Mechanics for Combat Optics
References: <200204120421.DWL00090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB662B4.8090706@yarranet.net.au>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> "Sam D" asks
> 
>>What is PCCS?

> 
> Phoenix Command Combat System.  There is no substitute.

Unless of course you favour a cinematic "I have a gun and I shoot them 
with it" style of play in which case CT or Fudge may be the combat 
system for you. Each to their own.

Phill
(Who has played using the PCCS related Aliens RPG system and knows it's 
not his cup of tea but understands that others love that sort of thing)
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:34:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:34:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DBB173.39814%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 7:46 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
> Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space
> travel, etc.?

What are you looking for characterwise?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:34:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DBB1B6.39815%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 7:46 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
> Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance space
> travel, etc.?


BTW.  When are you going to post something on the Corridor website or add
description to the mail list?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:40:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:40:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120438.DWL01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>  
>
>What are you looking for characterwise?
>
More Intel characters, especially a computer expert.

We have shooters and ship drivers, a lawyer, and one incoming 
intel type.
________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:41:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:41:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204120439.DWL01247@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

This weekend.  I'll update the description tonight, though.
I wrote a lot of game material this week.
________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:47:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:47:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly TU, Space Opera TU
Message-ID: <OF58588BF9.5C945756-ONCA256B99.0016233C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Zane commented:
>>In fact, I was having a discussion this afternoon with a coworker about
>>whether anybody would ever have the testicular fortitude to make a 
series
>>of movies based on the Lensman or Family D'Alembert series.
>>
>I'm scared to think what a mess a studio would make out of it!

You are also forgetting that the Family D'Alembert series _IS_ Traveller!

Or as close as nevermind.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 22:58:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 11 21:58:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411234005.01fed258@mail.qrc.com>
References: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020411234005.01fed258@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <20020412145541.A10353@freeman.little-possums.net>

Derek Wildstar wrote:
> It'd take a pretty large fleet for the separations to make the
> formation extend out of a single Brilliant Lances hex, for example.

Only a million ships or so...


> I would assume that "actually inside one another" is a special case
> of "too close" presumably the separation between the drives in this
> case would be one on the order of a ship length or less - the rough
> equivalent of attempting a jump from a planetary surface.

Of course, one "ship length" for a dreadnaught might be 10 diameters
for a free trader...  The Tigress might be safe, but the trader has
all sorts of problems.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 11 23:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 11 22:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller TO&Es
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEELHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020409151141.02b57ec0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412012202.01dde140@pop.wizard.net>

Frank Pitt:
>People are discussing "open source" or free game rules and
>claiming it's going to put game designers out of work.

You overstate what I was saying.  My thesis is that if open source RPG 
design gets really successful, then it will put at least some designers out 
of work.  If.  How many are displaced depends on the success level.  It's a 
very small industry.

>This is basically crap.

Don't be shy, tell us how you really feel.  <G>


>FUDGE is sold, and it is completely freely available at the same
>time.

Most RPG players of my acquaintance ( a _lot_ of people over the last 25+ 
years) are either unaware of FUDGE's existence or don't care about 
it.  Most FUDGE owners of my acquaintance paid somebody for it.


>GURPS Lite is given away, as were the basic rules for Alternity,
>among others.

I've known a lot more GURPS owners than FUDGE owners, and not one of them 
had the free version.


>The D20 system is "open source" and there are many designers
>making money off it, (or planning to make money off it) including
>Hunter Gordon on this list.

Yes.  I am curious to see how D20 will be doing over the coming months and 
years.

Again, I rarely see the world in stark black and white.  I don't think it's 
a choice between a world that includes open source RPG design but wipes 
professional designers out of existence, or has professional designers but 
no open source designers.  But it's a small industry/marketplace and even 
modest changes might affect it in big way.

My personal preference is we charge ahead with both professional and open 
source, and meanwhile the rest of the world buys a clue and realizes how 
much fun they can be having if they join in.  It beats watching reruns on 
TV.  The market explodes, and good fortune is had by all.

--Laning
"Imagine..."  -John Lennon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 00:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204120903310.10371-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > Please... it's been going on for days now. Could you move the off-topic
> > parts of the debate to TML chat?
> > Or else I'll begin posting socialist and communist propaganda...
> > (not a serious threat, but about as relevant)
> 
> But how can guns not be relevant to Traveller? :)

Perhaps it is just the Scandinavian socialist welfare state mindset, but I
have also trouble seeing how modern guns relates to Traveller.

I might understand this on a PCCS list, and I might even subscribe one,
did I own the game, but this seems a bit excessive.

I understood that there is a tml-gun list somewhere. Please take your
discussion there, if you need to continue. 

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 00:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] forced to unsubscribe for a bit
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412022408.01dde4e0@pop.wizard.net>

My ISP is doing bad things with my mail server.  I seem to be able to send 
but not receive.  I haven't seen any new TML traffic for the last 24 hours 
or so.  To prevent the incoming-email equivalent of Three Mile Island, I am 
turning off my TML subscription for awhile.  I apologize to anyone who I 
was also on a thread that I was participating in.  Or maybe you're just as 
glad.  :->>

Back in a day or so.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 00:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Those darn how-to-get-an-insert-movie-here name thin gs
In-Reply-To: <DAV32eCyWu1MRRNOqcC0001c03c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIECKEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

> > Star Wars Name =
> >
> > First 3 characters of first name + first 2 of your surname for first
> > name
> >
> > First 2 characters of mother's maiden name + first 3 of the town
> > where you were born.

Antfa Rilon (eek) or
Tonfa Rilon (a bit better)

Antony (call me Tony) Farrell


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 01:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Fri Apr 12 00:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Unpublished Material Question
Message-ID: <LAW2-F94snwO5UGXtTG000025a5@hotmail.com>

I was wondering if anyone has a list of all the Traveller(MT, TNE) material 
that GDW advertised, but did not release, also if anyone has any info as to 
how far along the material was before it was canned?

It would make for interesting reading.

Graham

This is the Universe ... Big isn't it?


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 01:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 00:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <memo.472174@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B8DBB173.39814%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
May I pass this around to other potentially interested parties, or do you 
want to keep it on the TML?

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 04:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Fri Apr 12 03:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] BITS website updated - Includes Travellercon.....
Message-ID: <B9A03CCD-4DFC-11D6-9B38-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support
http://www.bits.org.uk/

The BITS website has been updated to include details of this weekend's 
Traveller Con at Hebden Bridge, and the forthcoming Dudley Bug Ball, 
Fantasy Fair in Peterborough, Strange Days, GenCon UK and Dragonmeet 2002.
  Loads of crunchy goodness.

Have a look at the Traveller events that are on in the UK!!

Dom
BITS webmaster
webmaster@bits.org.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 05:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 04:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204121124.DWZ00277@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mexal, 
Yes you may pass it around.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 05:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 12 04:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RealLife(tm) Battledress, next chapter
References: <20020412005325.F414D27A9A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB6CA44.BBDCD63E@earthlink.net>

Leonard Erickson posted:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > This is kinda fun...
> >
> > http://www.aro.army.mil/soldiernano/
> >
> >
> > David
>
> Gee, you sent this on March 3, 1987. Slow X-boat?

Must be those posts on inertial suppression. <grin>


Actually it was a messed-up loaner laptop from work.


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 06:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 05:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204120903310.10371-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>

On 12 Apr 2002 at 9:06, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> Perhaps it is just the Scandinavian socialist welfare state mindset, but I
> have also trouble seeing how modern guns relates to Traveller.

Well if you cast your eye over the list of guns in CT's Book 1 and 
their descriptions you'll note that aside from the laser rifle they're 
all weapons you could find in a gun store or on a battlefield in 1970.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:05:08 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
References: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost> <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Well if you cast your eye over the list of guns in CT's Book 1 and 
> their descriptions you'll note that aside from the laser rifle they're 
> all weapons you could find in a gun store or on a battlefield in 1970.

... which means that we already have all the information we need on those
guns in our game.

Please...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
 <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost>
 <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412091256.01fc0e98@192.168.0.1>

At 03:06 PM 4/12/2002 +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > Well if you cast your eye over the list of guns in CT's Book 1 and
> > their descriptions you'll note that aside from the laser rifle they're
> > all weapons you could find in a gun store or on a battlefield in 1970.
>... which means that we already have all the information we need on those
>guns in our game.

Nah...it means it needs a big old gearhead update...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty 
clearly to protect political discourse.
But liberals reject the notion that free speech is therefore limited to 
political topics, even broadly defined.
True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself. But why leap 
to the conclusion that a broadly
worded constitutional freedom ("the right of the people to keep and bear 
arms") is narrowly limited by its
stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away? My New Republic 
colleague Mickey Kaus says that if
liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest 
of the Bill of Rights, there would be
law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory." -- Michael Kinsley 
Washington Post, January 8, 1990
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <OFC6A9CE02.C6420851-ON85256B99.004870A4@pheaa.org>





Mark Urbin asks
>
>Is this for a PBEM or a F2F?

>PBEM.  The F2F will be coming in May.

What is F2F?

also will the gm give us pregened chars?

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:45:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:45:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F195GoE1k8LN6FWe7Xl0000b978@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB78DC2.16250.66B1EA2@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002, at 0:35, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      The Ziru Sirka, while stagnant, is ahead of the Terrans in the tech 
> race.  Sure the Terrans can catch up, if they're given the time.  I just 
> can't quite understand why they were given the time.

The reasons are simple but conviluted.

1) In the ZS, the way to advance one's career was through the 
successful management of "prestige" sector (ie one that had "the 
eye" of the central government). For much of its history (at least 
until the 8th IW), the Solomani Rim was one of the backwaters and 
as such it was governed by a long succession of chair warmers,  
the disgraced and the occassional outright incompetant. Any 
administrator with drive and talent who ended up in the Rim spent 
most of their efforts getting out as quickly as possible

2) Initially the ZS didn't realise that there even was a war on. To the 
Vilani the 1st IW was simply a series of punitive raids against a 
nest of pirates (an analysis of the Terran's not too far from the truth 
at the time). If you think along the lines of British punitive raids 
against the tribes of the NW frontier (ie a very minor effort). This 
was indeed fortunate for the Terrans as even this minor effort nearly 
crushed them in the 1st War.

3) The ZS assumed that the Terran's technological growth would 
follow their own glacial pattern. They simply had no comprehension 
that the Terrans could match their techonology in just 33 years. 
The very concepts of "reverse engineering" and "synergetic 
exploitation" were totally alien to the Vilani (they simply could 
never understand that the Terrans would just copy their techology 
and then combine different elements in ways they have never even 
considered)

4) Likewise they measured their potential to expand in the terms of 
their own expansion. They did not forsee the Terran population 
explosion that was inevitable. Also, they could not know that the 
Terran's advanced biological sciences enabled them to support far 
greater population loads and exploit worlds that the Vilani had 
writen off as totally uninhabitable.
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 07:46:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Apr 12 06:46:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
In-Reply-To: <F70SDx1kLwxTQTYkWSz00001108@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB78DC2.21937.66B1EA2@localhost>

On 11 Apr 2002, at 15:31, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Yeah, I've got to think this over even more.  To my mind, minor race 
> rebellions aided and abetted by Terran infiltrators should be a big part of 
> the Interstellar Wars.  There would have been uprisings and sabotage a 
> sector or so "behind" the fighting front and the minor race allies providing 
> the lower-TL cannon fodder for the Alliance's offensives.

No, not really, at least not until right at the end (the Nth War). 
From the 1st to 8th War, the Terrans were simply facing the forces 
of a single ZS sector. If the ZS central fleet had been brought to 
bear at any stage in this period the Terrans would have been 
defeated (eventually, it wouldn't have been a cake walk though). 
But in the 9th War they faced the central fleet and anihilated it. 
This is the key factor in the collapse of the ZS.

Picture this, for thousands of years the ZS had stood as an 
immovable colossus, fixed and totally unchanging. It had the 
overwhelming faith of the vast majority of its citizens, sure things 
were not quite what they had once been and something was 
"wrong", but nobody could quite put their finger on it.

Sure their were some disaffected minor races and occassionally 
they did rebel, but they were always put in their place and if worst 
came to worst, there was still the Central Fleet. The Central Fleet 
was the very embodiment of the power and prestige of the ZS. 
Undefeated for thousands of year and with unquestioned power. As 
long as it existed any rebellion was doomed and the power of the 
ZS was undoubted.

In fact the empire was by this time a tettering house of cards. The 
total lack of change had lead to a slow build up of social tensions 
that were just waiting to break. All that was required was a crisis to 
spark the collapse. As long as nobody doubted the Empire it 
survived, but the moment serious doubt entered the equation, it just 
unravelled under the weight of thousands of years of social inertia.

And the spark was the Terran victory in the 9th War. Suddenly the 
most visible and tangible symbol of Vilani power was not just 
defeated by anihilated. The loyal citizens of the ZS went into a sort 
of state of shock and the oppressed minor races saw that the ZS 
could be defeated. This gives a sort of sudden explosion of the built 
up tensions. Sure the Empire still has the exact same resources 
as it had the day before the destruction of the Central Fleet, the 
infrastructure exists to build new ones and lots of other ships are 
still available. But the Empire has lost the faith of its people and it 
is doomed.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204121406.DXD05867@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"William Lane" asks
>What is F2F?

Face to Face
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Doug C.)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120246.DWH02152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020412140824.40827.qmail@web13402.mail.yahoo.com>

I would be interested.  Could you end me ome more
info?
Doug
<<dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>>

--- "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> I can handle a few more players on Corridor.
> Do you like mystery, intrigue, murder, long distance
> space 
> travel, etc.

______________________________________________________________________ 
Music, Movies, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:13:22 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

What do our lovely Ex Mil Travs think of this recent development?

Mikey

PS You just know that someone is going end up eating the moisture sachet at
one point. 

PPS Can someone please translate what 'acceptable' actually means in the
context of below. 

------------
April 12 2002

Military scientists in the United States have developed a new battlefield
weapon: the indestructible sandwich.

It can survive air drops and rough handling to stay fresh for up to three
years, even in tropical conditions.

Eventually, it is expected to follow freeze-dried coffee, dehydrated egg and
processed cheese from the battlefield on to supermarket shelves.

So far, only pepperoni and barbecued chicken varieties have been developed.
Soldiers who have tasted them say they are "acceptable".

Scientists are now working on indestructible pocket pizzas, cream-filled
bagels and peanut butter sandwiches.

The sandwiches are designed to stay fresh for up to three years at 26C, the
temperature of a warm summer's day, or six months at 38C. They are the
result of a long search by the US Army for rations that can be eaten on the
move.

The breakthrough was finding how to stop the filling from making the bread
soggy.

Scientists at the Soldier Systems Centre in Natick, Massachusetts, added
substances called humectants to pepperoni and chicken fillings.

Humectants not only prevent water from soaking into the bread but also limit
the amount of moisture available for bacterial growth, New Scientist
reports.

The sandwiches are then sealed in laminated plastic pouches that contain
sachets of chemicals to prevent the growth of yeast, mould and bacteria.

The standard American battlefield rations, called MRE, or Meal Ready to Eat,
already contain ingredients for making sandwiches. But they have to be
pasteurised and stored in separate pouches to prevent sogginess.

The Telegraph, London
-------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>; from jenry023@student.liu.se on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200
References: <3CB6BF68.23514.307CC5@localhost> <3CB77D04.25695.29FDA0@localhost> <20020412150632.557c02bf.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020412081916.A31020@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> 
> Please...

Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their sex
lives.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.    --John Ciardi

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:24:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:24:10 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip three year old sandwich>

ObTrav:  Ever wondered what was in those Rations?  It's just 
a logistical footnote in most RPGs.  Yeah, I have 5 days of 
food.  But how hungry are you?  How well are they packaged?  
How long can people really subsist on them?  How much did you 
pay for them (characters will always go cheap on the rations -
- there's no incentive not to).

We should have three grades of rations, that come "ready to 
eat"

Grade C  Civilian, cheap.  5cr per meal.  Not guaranteed to 
stay together if you sit on the packages.  Gosh, were those 
scrambled eggs?  You won't be eating these after a few days, 
unless you're starving.

Grade B  Civilian, expensive or Military Surplus.  8 cr per 
meal.  OK to eat if you don't smell it or look at it.  Some 
of the meals, by chance, will be good.  Worth arguing over 
who gets them.  Or you can buy meals blind, open them up, and 
throw out the ones you don't like.  Morale will suffer if you 
have to eat these for more than a week.

Grade A Military current, Civilian Expedition Quality.  12 cr 
per meal.  Even comes with a warmer, wow.  You will be able 
to eat these for a few months, but you will recognize the 
same entrees again and again.


________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 08:56:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 07:56:33 2002
Subject: [TML] forced to unsubscribe for a bit
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412022408.01dde4e0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <B8DC437B.3989C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 11:26 PM, laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:

> My ISP is doing bad things with my mail server.  I seem to be able to send
> but not receive.  I haven't seen any new TML traffic for the last 24 hours
> or so.  To prevent the incoming-email equivalent of Three Mile Island, I am
> turning off my TML subscription for awhile.  I apologize to anyone who I
> was also on a thread that I was participating in.  Or maybe you're just as
> glad.  :->>
> 
> Back in a day or so.

I can always set you up with local email on my server.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
In-Reply-To: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:23:34AM -0400
References: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020412090107.A31185@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:23:34AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> We should have three grades of rations, that come "ready to 
> eat"

Shouldn't the grades go in reverse order, e.g. Military, cheap;
Civilian, cheap and finally Civilian, expensive?  IME civilian rations
tend to be _much_ tastier than MREs.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:02:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:02:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel
Message-ID: <004201c1e232$ea7b0ee0$519793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C1E23B.3984D900
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 1st. A sample will be =
appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while.=20



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C1E23B.3984D900
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is =
December 1st.=20
A sample will be appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C1E23B.3984D900--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <200204121508.DXF06733@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>Shouldn't the grades go in reverse order, e.g. Military, 
>cheap;

I've had civilian cheap - too nasty for words.  Don't ever 
make me eat those eggs again, or whatever that greenish 
yellow lumpy slime was.

I think I had three grades of civilian in there, so let's 
rearrange the list

Grade C   Civilian cheap/Ancient Military Surplus
Grade B2  Military Surplus
Grade B1  Civilian average
Grade A2  Current Military
Grade A1  Civilian Expedition Grade

The military food packs, and the Grade A1 come in durable 
packaging, and are shelf stable in extreme environments.
The military takes less preparation.
Grade A1 and A2 include heaters, condiments, etc.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 09:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3636@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E234.E92A6110
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

COOL!!  Can't wait to see it :)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: MJ Dougherty [mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:01 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel


 
Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 1st. A sample will be appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. 
 
 
 
Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses


------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E234.E92A6110
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">


<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=433291515-12042002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>COOL!!&nbsp; Can't wait to see it :)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=433291515-12042002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Jesse</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> MJ Dougherty 
  [mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 12, 2002 8:01 
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> tml@travellercentral.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [TML] Traveller 
  novel<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 
  1st. A sample will be appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. 
  </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, Quiklink 
  Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E234.E92A6110--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018630776.524.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> "Matthew Bond" says
> <snip laser power>
> 
> I think I did a laser calculation on tml-guntech
> which has a 6.8kJ laser in 0.7 milliseconds (not 
> microseconds) that is more than capable of penetrating 30cm 
> of flesh.  The assumption was made that I would be vaporizing 
> a column of water, in 0.7 milliseconds, and that the target 
> spot would be 1mm x 1mm.  We came up with 1000 times the 
> power required to do the minimum vaporization and it came
> out to 6.8 kJ.

Hm...of course, against a target moving at more than 1m/s relative to your aim
point, you're going to have noticeable wandering during the beam period, making
the laser relatively inefficient at snapshots and the like.  In addition,
energy requirement to boil body temperature water is roughly 2.5 kJ/gram and
you're hitting 0.24 grams of material, for a vaporization energy of about 600
joules.

(Tim: I think you gave vaporization energy in calories, not joules).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412081916.A31020@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020412171320.46876.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start
> mentioning their sex
> lives.

Yeah, but there are rarely more than 10-15 off-topic
total posts on one of those threads before someone
(usually politely) asks them to either drop it or move
off the tml.  The gun topics have gone on for much
longer than 10-15 posts and lost topic either Monday
or Tuesday.  Suggestions:

1.  Move the discussion to private e-mail
2.  Move the discussion to tml-guntech
3.  Move the discussion to tml-chat
4.  Move the discussion to a gearhead list
5.  Bring it back to topic by relating to existing
combat rules or by designing new combat rules.
6.  Drop it altogether.

But please, don't keep it here without retaining game
relevance.  Discussions about which gun you prefer is
fine, but it is not on topic.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204121730.DXL01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>
>Hm...of course, against a target moving at more than 1m/s 
>relative to your aim point, you're going to have noticeable 
>wandering during the beam period, making
>the laser relatively inefficient at snapshots and the like.  
>In addition,
>energy requirement to boil body temperature water is roughly 
>2.5 kJ/gram and
>you're hitting 0.24 grams of material, for a vaporization 
>energy of about 600
>joules.
>

The calculation is over on tml-guntech. It is based on 
calculations done by the Air Force to determine required 
fluence levels to damage or vaporize a target. In their case, 
they were targeting mild steel.  I am targeting water. I 
first calculated the amount of material to be vaporized. I 
then assumed that it would take 1000 times that amount of 
energy, because of movement, armor, etc.  You may notice, 
however, that the reflectivity of mild unpolished steel is 
around 90% for a 1.3 nm wavelength beam.  The human body, 
OTOH, is around 10%.  So if you're not armored, my 1000 
factor is very, very conservative.  Even if we don't have an 
accurate model of penetration, I am fairly confident that 
raising the required energy by a factor of 1000 should get us 
some results other than a surface explosion.

Since we're using an overtone DF laser at 1.3nm, the 
atmosphere (according to published data) is not going to 
absorb any relevant percentage of the beam.

I also picked a very small spot size 1 mm x 1 mm.  If we make 
the spot size larger, say 1 cm x 1 cm, the power requirements 
really rise.

I have seen a continuous beam of similar spot size operating 
at a much lower power level.  It slices through 2 meters of 
layered fabric, cutting cloth for dresses.  The effect is 
nearly instantaneous.  Much faster than a saw or knife blade 
would ever be on a stack like that.  I was warned that if a 
human was ever inside the unit when it was operating, they 
would be cut instantly into the pattern.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 11:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <E16w5Hj-00044A-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

=20
> Face to Face

Where at?

Beth



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204121730.DXL01578@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018634628.8505.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> The calculation is over on tml-guntech.

Aha.  I found your error.  To quote:

>We want a wound channel approximately 1 mm x 1 mm, completely through the
theoretical 30 cm thick body that Tod uses for his calculations.

>The spot size will be 1mm x 1mm.

>This is 0.003 cc of water.

0.1 cm x 0.1cm x 30 cm = 0.3 cc.  You have a factor of 100 error.  Note that
your total energy requirement may still be credible, since you used a factor of
1,000 inefficiency.  I've seen pulsed laser calculations that would allow
blowthrough on as little as one kilojoule.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:10:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:10:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204121809.DXL07040@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Beth" asks
>> Face to Face
>
>Where at?
>
germantown, maryland
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204121814.DXL07610@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony says Aha
<snip>

ObTrav: I like a laser rifle from the aesthetic, CT 
perspective.  I have this view of "the spacers", people who 
come from the stars to have adventures on some remote 
planet.  And it isn't "practical" or "realistic".  I almost 
think that the whole plasma weapon thing is unnecessary.

Still, I like those ray guns in "Mars Attacks".  Give me one 
of those, thank you. Cool sound, fantastic effect.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 12:49:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:49:09 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <3CB72B6D.1443A6E7@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] The "gun" debate
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>> 
>> Please...
>
> Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> sex lives.

Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
subscribe via the digest. 

Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT 
political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to 
keep the list Traveller focused.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB72B6D.1443A6E7@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412150348.00b8d080@urbin.net>

At 01:46 PM 4/12/02 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> > From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> >> Please...
> > Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> > sex lives.
>Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
>subscribe via the digest.
>Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
>mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT
>political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to
>keep the list Traveller focused.

Hmmm...I haven't noticed the thread discussing the politics of ownership,
just the mechanics of the firearms and the wounds analysis.

It is starting to drift to the guntech list though.

Actually a good on topic thread on snub pistols has been going on there too.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Unpublished Material Question
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F94snwO5UGXtTG000025a5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEFPDKAA.tml@downport.com>

There wasn't much Traveller bottled up in GDW, and there do not seem to have
been a lot of things that were started and then dropped when they were close
to publication. I'm sure there were any number of ideas that were scrapped
because they were good enough :)

On the other hand, several of the licensees did die with good stuff in the
pipeline. Gamelords, Ltd. had several good items. one was Grand Survey,
which they sold to DGP. A couple of others were published recently by
Cargonaut Press. Paranoia Press had one or two items in the pipeline. DGP
had several when they went under, and at least one item, Lords of Thunder,
was put out as an article instead of a book.

For my money, some of the best stuff that has never seen wide circulation is
in some of the old fanzines; Between Worlds, Imperium Staple, Working
Passage, Parasec, Alien Star, Third Imperium, and many more. I'd like to see
some of those published on the web as Security Leak has been. The fanzines
were the WWW of their day. If anyone knows how to get in touch with
publishers of these old fanzines, let me know and I will work on web
publication.
_____________________________________

       http://www.downport.com
       The Traveller Web Portal
       webmaster@downport.com

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Graham Donald

I was wondering if anyone has a list of all the Traveller(MT, TNE) material
that GDW advertised, but did not release, also if anyone has any info as to
how far along the material was before it was canned?

It would make for interesting reading.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller novel
In-Reply-To: <004201c1e232$ea7b0ee0$519793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <004201c1e232$ea7b0ee0$519793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <200204121530190649.99C963A7@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 4/12/2002 at 4:00 PM MJ Dougherty wrote:

>Release date for Diaspora Phoenix is December 1st. A sample will be=
 appearing on the Quiklink site in a little while. 
>

The Diaspora Phoenix sample has been posted and is available at:

http://www.TravellerRPG.com/TNE/DiasporaPhoenix.html

Hunter



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 13:57:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Fri Apr 12 12:57:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com>

>"Beth" asks
> >> Face to Face
> >
> >Where at?
> >
>germantown, maryland

This *is* the germantown near DC and not the one on the Eastern Shore, 
right?



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204122000.DXP05028@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Yes, Germantown, Maryland, that armpit of suburbia.  One of 
the largest concentrations of people in Maryland.

Home of the Department of Energy, etc.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:01:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:01:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Ack so close and yet so far.
ken
VA beach

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew MacLintock" <a_maclintock@hotmail.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Send more humans


> >"Beth" asks
> > >> Face to Face
> > >
> > >Where at?
> > >
> >germantown, maryland
> 
> This *is* the germantown near DC and not the one on the Eastern Shore, 
> right?
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Mac
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
> http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204121814.DXL07610@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018641727.2102.ajackson@ping>

Incidentally, where does the idea of 1.3nm X-rays penetrating atmosphere come
from?  I can't find any immediate references, and was under the general
impression that beyond some windows in the near UV the atmosphere basically
absorbs everything.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204122010.DXP06343@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>
>Incidentally, where does the idea of 1.3nm X-rays 
>penetrating atmosphere come from?  I can't find any 
>immediate references, and was under the general
>impression that beyond some windows in the near UV the 
>atmosphere basically absorbs everything.
>_______________________________________________

My mistake - it's 1.3 microns.  The document is Laser Options 
For National Missile Defense, an Air Force document.  
Apparently, 1.3 microns will allow a space based laser to 
target ground targets - there are more uses for the SBL than 
just shooting missiles.  It will be an effective anti-
aircraft weapon, and other documents indicate it will be 
useful at targeting individuals.

With the fluence they plan on using, and the beam time (4 
seconds), it looks like they could literally smoke you down 
to the bones with something like that.

They also indicate in related documents that the same mirror 
that would be used to strike ground targets would be able to 
spot and aim.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
Message-ID: <20020412.131217.-193605.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:08:54 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> Grade C   Civilian cheap/Ancient Military Surplus
> Grade B2  Military Surplus
> Grade B1  Civilian average
> Grade A2  Current Military
> Grade A1  Civilian Expedition Grade

Ah the lucky service men/women of today are blessed with grade A food,
HA!

Back in 1972 - 1975 all I ever saw, ate, and enjoyed, HA, were C Rations
packed in 1953!!!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The great gun discussion
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020412135143.009f0220@mail.attbi.com>

	Ok.  I have collected firearms all my life, hunted all my life, reloaded 
ammo all my life.  Firearms are one of main hobbies, and so is 
Traveller.  The intersection of the two is interesting and appropriate, 
accassionally.  But, seriously, guys, {and you know who you are) not 
everone is interested in our firearms hobby, or is even allowed to have a 
firearms hobby.  Or allowed to or want to hunt.  I would love to sit down 
and bullshit for hours about guns, hunting, etc, but let's stop inflicting 
this subject on innocent bystanders.
	I hope I haven't offended anyone, because I really like everyone on this 
list, but if I have please feel free to flame me at d.gyles@attbi.net.
	Ok, back to lurking, now.
	P.S. You hunt with guns!! What wimps!! Real men use a bow!!!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
In-Reply-To: <200204121423.DXF00470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CB7E982.25362.4543EE@localhost>

On 12 Apr 2002 at 10:23, John T. Kwon wrote:

> <snip three year old sandwich>
> 
> ObTrav:  Ever wondered what was in those Rations?  It's just 
> a logistical footnote in most RPGs.  Yeah, I have 5 days of 
> food.  But how hungry are you?  How well are they packaged?  
> How long can people really subsist on them?  How much did you 
> pay for them (characters will always go cheap on the rations -
> - there's no incentive not to).

Not in my games they don't. Or not often, and very seldom after the 
ones that do have been given descriptions of what it's like to eat 
jellied eels, pickled goose eggs and candied locusts (and I mean the 
insects, not the fruit). My preference is to time this so that the 
players are eating when the description of their character's meal is 
given. Thyis doesn't work on some people, as they've eaten this sort of 
thing or 'worse', but they're seldom the ones being cheap, strangely 
enough.
 
> Grade B  Civilian, expensive or Military Surplus.  8 cr per 
> meal.  OK to eat if you don't smell it or look at it.  Some 
> of the meals, by chance, will be good.  Worth arguing over 
> who gets them.  Or you can buy meals blind, open them up, and 
> throw out the ones you don't like.  Morale will suffer if you 
> have to eat these for more than a week.

Sounds like a fussy eater to me. This looks like a fairly good 
description of our rations and I can't say that there was ever a 
significant drop in morale over a 2 week exercise period. OTOH the 
boost in morale after even only a couple of days if a fresh hot meal is 
shipped/trucked/flown in is amazing.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 14:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Fri Apr 12 13:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <20020412081916.A31020@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204122324460.17035-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> > Please...
> 
> Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their sex
> lives.

Well, yes, but this still is _Traveller_ mailing list. Sex lives also a
no-no, please. 

The point of the list kind of gets lost, if I have to delete 80% of the
posts as off-topic. B-/

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a
 starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411151634.0209ac08@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:52 PM 4/10/2002, Texas Redshift wrote:
>Starship Insurance - Theft and Casualty - Claims

Good post.  A couple of points to think about: one of them being the 
general piracy scenario (but that's not one I want to go into now).  The 
other being the definition of when the ship becomes salvage (versus the 
recovery of stolen property).  Hopefully someone with better knowledge of 
maritime law can chime in here, but the rule of thumb that I've used IMTU 
goes as follows:

If the ship was stolen, and later recovered in any sort of operable 
condition, it's stolen property and not salvage, and legally belongs to 
whomever is the owner.  If someone assists in recovering the ship for the 
owners, there is generally some type of reward involved; most larger ship 
owners and insurers make sure that their reward policies are well-known, 
since this helps in recovering stolen ships.

A stolen ship should become salvage only after a reasonably long period of 
time (given the lifetimes of Traveller starships).  A stolen ship may also 
become eligible for salvage if the owner formally files papers to abandon 
the ship.  Companies (particularly insurers) may do this if it has tax 
advantages.  An insurance company with a large portfolio of stolen ships 
may choose to take the write-off and tax benefit of abandonment rather than 
hold the ships until they become salvage automatically.

The company would have to make a decision about the chance of recovering 
the ship (and it's expected value if recovered) versus the value of the tax 
shelter in writing the ship off.  This could be a useful adventure hook; 
freelance salvage companies probably scan the list of abandoned ships as 
they are published, because those ships are now "fair game" and any 
proceeds no longer have to be shared with the insurance company.  The list 
is probably just that - but a salvage company with good research 
connections may occasionally be able to recover such a ship where the owner 
could or would not.

If the ship was abandoned due to any sort of disaster or accident which 
made it inoperable, uninhabitable and/or a hazard to navigation, then it 
becomes salvage.  If it is ever recovered (for parts or to be repaired and 
returned to service) it would become (after a bit if paperwork) the legal 
property of whomever salvaged it.

This leads to some interesting adventure hooks: if at all possible without 
undue hazard to life, an agent of the ship owner (generally the 
owner-aboard, captain, or crew) or the insurer (generally an agent or 
freelancer hired for the purpose) must remain aboard a damaged ship so that 
it does not become salvage.  This could involve the PCs in many ways - for 
example, a ship owner or insurance company could hire them to spend some 
time aboard a damaged and otherwise abandoned ship.  They'd start out in 
vacc suits, and probably would want to seal and re-pressurize some 
compartment so they would have a place to un-suit during their stay.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:04:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:04:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204122010.DXP06343@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018645406.4851.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> My mistake - it's 1.3 microns.

Ok, that's more familiar, that's actually near IR.

Oh, if you want a really insane tech option (which real people are vaguely
considering), Hf-178m2 lasers make a neat gamma ray laser option which people
are really studying.  Some benefits:

2.6 MeV photons don't have remotely interesting diffraction problems at normal
combat ranges.  a 1mm lens, for a 1mm beam, retains basically full focal
ability out to 100 km.

Gamma rays, due to high penetration (90% reduction in about an inch of steel)
can efficiently deposit energy well below the normal surface layers, thus
significantly improving the ability to fire through both atmosphere and armor. 
A 10 kilojoule beam should be plenty to kill through quite a bit of armor.

Hf-178m2 stores a lot of energy -- on the order of a gigajoule per gram -- thus
solving a lot of the energy storage problems.  It would need some power input
to trigger lasing, but probably considerably less than the output.

Based on how x-ray lenses are designed (low incidence angle deflection), a
gamma ray lens would probably be a thin metal-walled tube, thus actually
resembling a gun, rather than resembling a flashlight.

Disadvantages: Hf-178m2 is radioactive, half-life 31 years.  Assuming you need
a stored energy of 10 megajoules, carrying an unshielded power source next to
your skin for a month would expose you to a mean radiation dose of about 10,000
rads.  Using real materials, I'd want to wrap it in around 2 cm of iridium,
which would add more than a kilogram to the weight of the weapon.  With
Traveller materials, just wrap it in bonded superdense (in fact, the barrel is
probably bonded SD as well); assuming bonded SD is 14x as good radiation
shielding as steel, half a centimeter is enough shielding.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
Message-ID: <200204122116.DXS00114@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
<snip radioactive death>

ObTrav:  I was wondering how many rads someone has to take to 
be a "prompt" casualty (and probably a fatality, pretty 
soon).  Yes, there are some fairly generic rules (see Gurps: 
Space or Ultra-Tech I'm not sure).  I'd be interested in some 
house rules, because radioactivity has got to occur around 
fusion powerplants, in space, etc.  It's a Traveller kind of 
thing.

I keep hearing around 20,000 rads, but I've also heard that 
someone cooked like that can linger for a day or so.  There 
were some accidents with the Therac-25 machine where people 
were accidentally given the maximum output of the machine 
because of software errors.  Some of the doses were in that 
range.

Also, it's not clear how they calculate dosage.  In the 
accident for the Therac, they describe radiation through a 
very small cross-section of the body, but also describe a 
calculated "whole-body" dose.

If shielding worked that well per your gadget, then it would 
be possible to build a small short range weapon that 
consisted of shielding, a source that could produce a 20,000 
rad/sec emission, and a shutter.

I don't think that there's a handwave for "my body is dead 
and I don't know it yet".
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204122116.DXS00114@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018646710.9067.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> Anthony Jackson says
> <snip radioactive death>
> 
> ObTrav:  I was wondering how many rads someone has to take to 
> be a "prompt" casualty (and probably a fatality, pretty 
> soon).  Yes, there are some fairly generic rules (see Gurps: 
> Space or Ultra-Tech I'm not sure).  I'd be interested in some 
> house rules, because radioactivity has got to occur around 
> fusion powerplants, in space, etc.  It's a Traveller kind of 
> thing.

Well, in the case of the weapon described, it wouldn't be a radiation kill,
it's just going to vaporize all the material in a 1mm channel through the body,
producing rather bullet-like effects.

The effects of high doses of radiation on humans are not well studied due to a
lack of examples, but 20,000 rads is reasonable for immediate incapacitation.

> If shielding worked that well per your gadget, then it would 
> be possible to build a small short range weapon that 
> consisted of shielding, a source that could produce a 20,000 
> rad/sec emission, and a shutter.

Well, radiation sprayers are the type of weapon that tends to get banned by
international convention, but as a short range weapon (100 meters or less)
radiation weapons are rather simple.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <200204122133.DXT01374@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson talks about radioactivity
<snip>

I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone 
can help out and pony up their house rules).

Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-
T) powerplant's energy output will be in the form of 
neutrons.  

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
References: <ML-2.3.1018646710.9067.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CB75306.59A09CC@premier.net>


Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> John T. Kwon writes:
> > Anthony Jackson says
> > <snip radioactive death>
> >
> > ObTrav:  I was wondering how many rads someone has to take to
> > be a "prompt" casualty (and probably a fatality, pretty
> > soon).  Yes, there are some fairly generic rules (see Gurps:
> > Space or Ultra-Tech I'm not sure).  I'd be interested in some
> > house rules, because radioactivity has got to occur around
> > fusion powerplants, in space, etc.  It's a Traveller kind of
> > thing.
> 
> Well, in the case of the weapon described, it wouldn't be a radiation kill,
> it's just going to vaporize all the material in a 1mm channel through the body,
> producing rather bullet-like effects.
> 
> The effects of high doses of radiation on humans are not well studied due to a
> lack of examples, but 20,000 rads is reasonable for immediate incapacitation.

According to FM 25-51, Battalion Task Force Nuclear Training, a dose of
8,000-18,000 rad is projected to cause the hapless victim to "become
completely and permanently incapacitated for performing physical tasks
within 5 minutes."  For doses over 18,000 rad, replace the word
"physical" with "any." 

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 15:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 12 14:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <200204122133.DXT01374@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018648147.2754.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone 
> can help out and pony up their house rules).
> 
> Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-
> T) powerplant's energy output will be in the form of 
> neutrons.  

Which is an excellent reason to avoid using D-T reactors, if anything else can
be made to work.  D-He3 can be optimized to only a few percent neutrons (caused
by incidental D-D reactions in the fuel).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 16:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 12 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fort Knox-Radcliff - Looking for Players
Message-ID: <184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a@aol.com>

--part1_184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I'm a long time traveller fan that has settled in the Radcliff/Fort Knox 
area. Looking for any fellow Traveller Players. I am experienced with 
Classic, MegaTraveller, T4, and GURPS versions of our favorite game. Contact 
me if your in the Fort Knox area. 

--part1_184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>I'm a long time traveller fan that has settled in the Radcliff/Fort Knox area. Looking for any fellow Traveller Players. I am experienced with Classic, MegaTraveller, T4, and GURPS versions of our favorite game. Contact me if your in the Fort Knox area. </FONT></HTML>

--part1_184.6a92b63.29e8bf4a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] eine Frage fur die deutschsprechenden Leute des TMLs
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

I need help translating a little bit of military radio talk from English or
German.  If you would like to help, please email me off list.

Vielen Dank,

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEHACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>

[Excellent comparison of 1600-1900 China and ca. 2400 Ziru Sirka deleted.]

>
>     That's part of my take on the whole problem.  The Terran Confederation
>victory over the Ziru Sirka is more along the lines of Cortez versus the
>Aztecs; i.e lots of native allies, and most decidely not a case of "Terra
>Uber Alles."

Mr. Whipsnade*:

You and Mr. Laning and I are in general agreement on this point.  Solomani,
whether Imperial or Confederate, suppress the truth of Vegan, Geonee,
Azhanti, what-have-you revolts that finally toppled the Ziru Sirka.

--Glenn

*An easy typographical error to make is Whipsnake, which is something else
again, I suppose.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEEMHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8dd1a45b944@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:02 PM +1200 4/11/02, Frank Pitt wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote :
>
>>  But we are talking about security measure that are
>>  intrusive enough that the are a hassle to the day
>>  to day operation of a ship.
>
>Yes.
>
>Just as being searched for screwdrivers and penknives is
>currently a hassle in the day to day operation of an airline.
>
>>  Some people are going to know about them.
>
>Everyone will be _told_ about them. They won't be secret.

And if you can make that kind of link (we are preventing something 
that has been used to cause great loss of life), then you have a 
justification for the security measures.  But invoking intrusive 
insurance companies alone won't do it.

>
>>  Unless they are important  enough to make a _significant_
>change in costs,
>>  another company will be able to draw at least some customers
>away buy not
>>  having such intrusive requirements.
>
>The requirements are set by the SPA and the local civilian
>government, not the insurance company, as I already said :

It doesn't matter who is setting the requirements.  One still has to 
show they are justified economically.  (Though, in fact, the Imperium 
is very hands off and I _don't_ see the requirement comming here.  I 
_would_ be the insurance company, if it was justified).

>
>>  >The warranting is done by other organizations, and may be
>>  >required by higher quality star-ports of you want a berth.  It
>>  >may be unpopular, but as _every_ insurance company and better
>>  >starport will do it (for important safety and
>>  >financial reasons,would you want an unwarranted vehicle
>>  >approaching an extremely expensve space station?), there won't
>>  >be any real choice except for the captains to take the risk
>>  >of not doing it and not go to the better starports
>>
>>  The presumption is that every insurance company will have such
>>  requirements.
>
>No, the presumption is that no insurance company will accept
>liability for an illegal ship.
>
>Because of that, if the ship owners wish to be able to recover
>the cost of their starship in the event of an accident, they will
>attempt to ensure their ship is legal at all times.

Well, the body doing the requirement, as I said above, doesn't change 
the issue of whether the requirement is needed.

>Think about the difference in damage potential between a 747 and
>a subsidized merchant.
>Then think about the greater effect that damage will have on an
>orbital starport.
>
>Security on a starship will be required to be tight to prevent
>"passengers" from taking control of the starship and flying it
>into the starport, or other targets of oppurtunity.

And the question is whether
a) Is this likely (just because some sort of terrorist act is 
possible doesn't mean that someone is trying to do it.  We didn't 
protect against the 9/11 incident because, in past, such an act 
simply wasn't likely enough.  The failure was to recognize that rise 
of those willing and able to do such a thing).  There are still 
things out there were someone could cause loss of life that we don't 
protect against.
b) What are the measures necessary to achieve this security.

Now I wasn't following the thread so I don't know what has been 
discussed on either count.  I just wanted to point out that you can't 
assume that an insurance company, or other agency, would mandate any 
security measure you can think of regardless of the need.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 17:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 12 16:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] thickness of body, wound tracks
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>

>In fact, hunters and cops seem to take "stopping power" much more seriously
than the military.

I wouldn't say "more seriously;" it's just that they have different
objectives.  The military is happy to wound an enemy soldier and take him
plus one or more other combatants out of the fight as they try to save the
one who got hit.  Hunters want to bring the animal down right away so they
don't have to chase it.  Police are often trying to protect themselves and
innocent people, so once they decide to shoot, they don't want the suspect
to get back up, or not fall at all.

Interestingly, the Colt .45 Model 1911 was designed to give American
soldiers enough stopping power to knock down an oncoming Philippino
guerilla.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
Message-ID: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1E287.5BD606E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term =
"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?

The origin is bugging me....

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1E287.5BD606E0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can anyone suggest where they first saw =
reference=20
to the Term "Ortillery" for orbital artillery?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The origin is bugging=20
me....</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C1E287.5BD606E0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com> <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3CB77AE9.17CE776@mindspring.com>

Joseph Elric Smith wrote:

> Ack so close and yet so far.
> ken
> VA beach

Pungo?



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com> <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net> <3CB77AE9.17CE776@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <010301c1e282$a2382960$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Virginia Beach VA
Ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Send more humans


> Joseph Elric Smith wrote:
> 
> > Ack so close and yet so far.
> > ken
> > VA beach
> 
> Pungo?
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
>                                -Steve Martin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 18:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 12 17:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
References: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CB77CAC.A913834@mindspring.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> "Ortillery" for orbital artillery? The origin is bugging me....

Right here on the TML a few months back. I guess that doesn't help much.

Obtrav: Things like this probably happen with Xmail all the time.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 19:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 12 18:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
References: <F208dZhotjCjWEF0HG0000002c5@hotmail.com> <002a01c1e25c$b12bf080$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net> <3CB77AE9.17CE776@mindspring.com> <010301c1e282$a2382960$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3CB781F2.33EEA6C8@mindspring.com>

Joseph Elric Smith wrote:

> Virginia Beach VA
> Ken
>
> Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [TML] Send more humans
>
> > Joseph Elric Smith wrote:
> >
> > > Ack so close and yet so far.
> > > ken
> > > VA beach
> >
> > Pungo?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> > www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> > I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
> >                                -Steve Martin
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Yes, I'm in Pungo borough. You?


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 19:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri Apr 12 18:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <3cb77b2c.15566185@post.demon.co.uk>

Richard Huxton <red@archonet.com> writes:

>I had a sudden vision of a jump-capable planet working its way around =
the=20
>galaxy sucking gas giants dry between jumps.

Using HG2, rather than Book 2.  Afraid I missed the price target
slightly, but cost overruns are inevitable on a project of this scope.
;-)

Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =20

MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
78,886,000,000,000,000,000 tons
Crew=3D394,428,000,000,000,000
TL=3D13

Passengers=3D0 Low=3D0 Cargo=3D1,498,825,000,000,000,000 tons
=46uel=3D34,710,000,000,000,000,000 EP=3D(lots) Agility=3D0 Marines=3D0

I didn't fit armament, but there's lots of spare cargo space to play
with.  This ship can also be supplied with a fuel shuttle which,
coincidentally enough, looks rather like a moon....

The crew needed for the ship is a little steep, since it needs about
65 million times the population of present-day Terra.  Also, my
geometry is extremely rusty, but I'm right in thinking that 4/3 pi r^3
is the formula for volume of a sphere, aren't I?  (And that Earth's
radius is 6,412,000m).

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018630776.524.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204120110.DWD08074@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <ML-2.3.1018630776.524.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020413123016.B12650@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> (Tim: I think you gave vaporization energy in calories, not joules).

Ick!  No, I just mistyped 2.3e5 instead of 2.3e6 joules per kilogram
for latent heat of vaporization :/ Of course, that means that the
original 6.8kJ calculation was even further off.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chem Det Missiles
References: <20020410050411.0205627AA5@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB798C4.4E90DEB3@earthlink.net>

Question for the list:

Has anyone developed any design rules for chem-det missiles
in a rulesset other than GURPS?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018641727.2102.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204121814.DXL07610@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <ML-2.3.1018641727.2102.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020413123527.C12650@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Incidentally, where does the idea of 1.3nm X-rays penetrating
> atmosphere come from?

I expect it's a typo for 1.3 um.  Of course, you need handwave
focussing to get a 1mm spot size with such a wavelength in a
pistol-sized weapon past 20 metres or so, but that's not problem for
Traveller.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 20:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 12 19:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <3CB75306.59A09CC@premier.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1018646710.9067.ajackson@ping> <3CB75306.59A09CC@premier.net>
Message-ID: <20020413124722.D12650@freeman.little-possums.net>

John Groth wrote:
> According to FM 25-51, Battalion Task Force Nuclear Training, a dose
> of 8,000-18,000 rad is projected to cause the hapless victim to
> "become completely and permanently incapacitated for performing
> physical tasks within 5 minutes."

Yep.  Good if you want to make sure someone dies rather soon, but not
as good if they're actively shooting at you *right now*.

Note: For gamma rays, a whole-body dose of 18000 rads works out to an
absorbed energy of about 15 kJ.  I reckon absorbing 15 kJ of laser or
kinetic energy would "completely and permanently incapacitate" the
victim pretty quickly too.

A nuclear damper in the area is probably going to nullify a radiation
weapon based on decay of radioactive isotopes.  Not that I'm saying
that's the only way to build a radiation weapon, of course, but
something to be aware of.  If set to accelerate decay, it might even
melt down the weapon with disastrous consequences to the wielder.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 21:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Doug C.)
Date: Fri Apr 12 20:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
References: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <3CB77CAC.A913834@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB7A9FD.3BD6AF65@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hmmm,
Seems to me there is a ref in 'The Spinward Marches Campaign'
Douglas

alan spik wrote:

> MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> > Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> > "Ortillery" for orbital artillery? The origin is bugging me....
>
> Right here on the TML a few months back. I guess that doesn't help much.
>
> Obtrav: Things like this probably happen with Xmail all the time.
>
> --
> Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
>                                -Steve Martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 21:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 20:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
Message-ID: <200204130346.DYF01090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ortillery?

I saw it in Dirtside, a game to go with Full Thrust.

But I may have seen it in an SF novel before.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 22:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Fri Apr 12 21:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413085805.02756ec8@pop3.norton.antivirus>

At 01:05 AM 13/04/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term "Ortillery" 
>for orbital artillery?
>
>The origin is bugging me....

First I saw of it was in 'GT-Ground Forces'.
Hated it at first, but the term has grown on me.

Andrei Nikulinsky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 22:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Fri Apr 12 21:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lucasian Name Generator
In-Reply-To: <16c.bd99229.29e5cbf5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001201c1e2a4$8e34e670$2f7de40c@loki>

Maray Rijam to some and Arkers Ayerin to others:

has been off the list for a few days and close to a grand in messages
but he already sees some good stuff. He'll have Mark Ayers respond to
the best of 'em as soon as he gets caught up. Now if the damn exorcist
could get Mosiac Tapestry and Eslaan Marakyr and Ark Ramsey and James
Richard Walker III and Farquhar McPhar and a few more alter egoes to
share in the duties. Hmmm?

---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 23:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 12 22:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <F209IlOAPE3EzbwJp8k00003548@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone
can help out and pony up their house rules)."

     "Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-T) 
powerplant's energy output will be in the form of neutrons."


Mr. Kwon,

     This one's sort in my baliwick, the shielding bits that is.  I won't 
even attempt to guess-timate the energy range fusion-produced neutrons will 
have, but I'll assume (gulp) they won't be too far off from fission 
generated ones.
     The short story is that you'll need some heavy shielding, but not a bad 
as the equivalent in gamma radiation will require.  The shielding you choose 
should have LOTS of hydrogen in it as hydrogen atoms will slow, reflect, and 
eventually stop neutrons better than anything else.
     One nasty side effect of neutron radiation will be the eventual 
deterioration of the materials your power plant is made of.(The early 
embrittlement of fission reactor vessels due to neutron bombardment is the 
reason some plants in the US have been decommisioned ahead of schedule.)  
Annual maintenance might involve detection and replacement of components 
effected by neutron exposure.
     GURPS Compedium II has servicable rad rules.  IIRC, there are some MT 
rules in a DGP Digest issue that deal with exposure rather exhaustively.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 23:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri Apr 12 22:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
In-Reply-To: <3CB7A9FD.3BD6AF65@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEEOEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

> MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> > Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> > "Ortillery" for orbital artillery? The origin is bugging me....
>
> Right here on the TML a few months back. I guess that doesn't help much.
>
> Obtrav: Things like this probably happen with Xmail all the time.
-----------
There was a description in the JTAS Issue number 9 page 21 This is the issue
which first described the organisation of the Duke of Reginas Huscarles. The
unit had  an attached ortillery squadron consisting of 3 system defence
boats. The unit at this time also had a squadron of 10 50dt single place
fighters and 2 50dt dual place fighters in the units flight HQ

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 12 23:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 12 22:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <200204130523.DYJ00139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" says
>
>     The short story is that you'll need some heavy 
>shielding, but not a bad as the equivalent in gamma 
>radiation will require.  The shielding you choose 
>should have LOTS of hydrogen in it as hydrogen atoms will 
>slow, reflect, and eventually stop neutrons better than 
>anything else.

Some of the neutrons need to be captured and converted to 
thermal energy - probably the liquid lithium blanket we 
always hear about.  After that, polyethylene, and lots of it.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 00:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (nellkyn)
Date: Fri Apr 12 23:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
References: <008401c1e27f$0cb6b8f0$1c9693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <006001c1e2b7$f0047100$81e868d5@k5k9u6>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1E2C0.20DF7C40
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

First edition of the Dirtside wargames rules by Ground Zero Games. Sorry =
I don't know what year they were published but it was prior to 1989, if =
my memory serves me correctly. Try contacting GZG directly as Jon =
Tuffley may be able to let you know where he first heard the term. =
Failing that, the GZG Mailing list may be able to help.

Off to TravCon in 15 minutes. See you there if you're coming.

Neil
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: MJ Dougherty=20
  To: tml@travellercentral.com=20
  Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 1:05 AM
  Subject: [TML] Ortillery


  Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term =
"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
  =20
  The origin is bugging me....

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1E2C0.20DF7C40
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>First edition of the Dirtside wargames =
rules by=20
Ground Zero Games. Sorry I don't know what year they were published but =
it was=20
prior to 1989, if my memory serves me correctly. Try contacting GZG =
directly as=20
Jon Tuffley may be able to let you know where he first heard the term. =
Failing=20
that, the GZG Mailing list may be able to help.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Off to TravCon in 15 minutes. See you =
there if=20
you're coming.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Neil</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk" =
title=3Dmartinjd@globalnet.co.uk>MJ=20
  Dougherty</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:tml@travellercentral.com"=20
  title=3Dtml@travellercentral.com>tml@travellercentral.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, April 13, 2002 =
1:05=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [TML] Ortillery</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can anyone suggest where they first =
saw reference=20
  to the Term "Ortillery" for orbital artillery?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The origin is bugging=20
me....</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1E2C0.20DF7C40--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 01:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Sat Apr 13 00:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [Request] Black War Ships, statistics/history
Message-ID: <LAW2-F143KWtXgzyKyF00003ac6@hotmail.com>

Hi,

I'm interested in if possible/legal obtaining a copy of the article in 
Challenge 60, which covered the history/stats of the "Black War" ships 
produced in the lead up to the collapse. Either a .txt or .pdf file is 
acceptable.

Graham

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 02:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 01:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204110412.g3B4CU601389@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20412.221249.4a6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard writes:
>> The problem is, different things depend on *different* ratios. 
>> 
>> Some depend on things like the charge to mass ratio of particles.
>> Others depend on things like the ratios of the *squares* of of things.
>> And some are things like square roots. Or weirder ratios. 
>> 
>> You *can't* make them all match. 
>
> Even if all four fundamental forces & inertia (i.e. apparent
> mass) drop simultaneously by the same factor? Wouldn't then
> the ratios between these values (and those other values based
> on them) all stay the same? -Jim

As an example, a lot of things depend on the fine structure constant.
Which contains things like the *square* of the charge of the electron.

Which means that if you halve the value of the charge, the value of the
fine structure constant drops to one-quarter.

So the ratios of stuff that depend on the value of things drops to 1/2,
but stuff that depends on the *square* of the values drops to 1/4.
Making one set of properties *twice* as big relative to the other.

There are other things that depend on stuff like the 3/2 power of
various forces...

So, no, you can't adjust the properties at all without making
*something* different. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 02:06:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 01:06:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204110424.g3B4OLI01403@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20412.223302.9s3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Apart from that, your goal is to have the behaviour of atoms (and more
>> complex systems) behave in the same way as before inertial
>> suppression, correct?  This requires more than just changing the
>> strength of forces.
>
> The goal was to theoretically examine inertial suppression as a
> means for making high accelleration (say anywhere from 50g to 1000g)
> doable for a STL-based RPG, so that we'd be able to have speedy
> interstellar travel from a subjective viewpoint (a few days to a few
> weeks from the viewpoint of the crew, although it would be years
> or even decades from the viewpoint of those not taking the trip).
>
> In any case, I think I've explained this idea well enough, and
> both you and Leonard continue to make the case that it violates
> physics as we know it, and both of you know a lot more about
> physics than I do, so it seems that I'm going to have to relent
> and give up on this idea, in which case, I think, STL becomes
> infeasible, and we're left with FTL (which has already been done
> to death). Ah well... -Jim

The thing is, you are stuck on the idea of inertial suppression. It's
possible to compensate for acceleration forces, *without* messing with
inertia.

If you can generate artificial gravity of some sort, then you can
neutralize acceleration up to the point where the acceleration equals
the max strength of the artifical gravity. 

Likewise, if your drive uses forces similar to gravity, in that they
act evenly on all particles composing the ship, there won't be any
*apparent* acceleration. 

What causes trouble with acceleration is the fact that it's being
transmitted to the contents of the ship by the structure of the ship
(ie drive pushes on drive mounts, drive mounts push on load-bearing
framework & hull, frame and hull push on decks, decks push on crew). 

So if the drive generates a *field* that affects all of the ship
equally, then each atom (actually each subatomic particle) is pushed
*directly*. 

So the effect is that you are in free fall. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 02:06:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 01:06:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204111632.g3BGW6R07263@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20412.224526.0W9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> OK.  A single hydrogen atom is probably easiest.  The size scale of
>> the atom is given by (h^2 eps_0 / pi m_e q_e^2).  We've reduced m_e by
>> a factor of 100, and increased eps_0 by the same factor to reduce the
>> strength of electrostatic attraction.  If we don't reduce h, then each
>> hydrogen atom (and likewise other atoms) will be 10000 times bigger
>> when we switch on the inertial suppression field.  So we have to
>> decrease h by a factor of 100 so that atoms are the same size.  That's
>> just one simple example.
>> 
>> Hence inertial suppression requires more than just changing the
>> strength of forces.  If you want the atoms to behave the same way, you
>> need to alter fundamental constants as well.
>  
> Why does h influence the size of the atom?

Because Planck's constant is the basis of all quantum effects. It's how
"grainy" the universe is. Change it and you change the size of the
"orbits" of the electrons. 

> Also, how do we know that h is a fundamental constant and not
> dependant on the factors we might be changing (i.e. fundamental
> forces) with the intertial suppression scheme?

We don't. But so far all attempts to come up with theories (hypotheses,
if you want to be picky) that will explain experimental data and
observations we already have but have h be a "side effect" of something
else.

Or to put it another way, h is a *measurement* of how energy & time
relate or position and momentum relate.

> Are you saying that by reducing the mass, the orbitals of the electrons
> are going to be larger?

Sort of. The compton wavelength of the electron is h/(me*c) where h is
Planck's constant, me is the mass of the electron, and c is the speed
of light.

Lower the mass of the electron and the wavelength gets longer. Which
means the electron is more smeared out. Since the "orbitals" are just a
simpler way of looking at the way the wavelength of the electron
achieves a "resonance" at given distances (ie you could think of the
orbitals as being the distances where the "orbit" is one, two, three,
etc wavelengths long) changing the wavelength changes the size of the
orbit...

> I'm not completely sure how plank's constant enters into this.

See the above. Remember, particles also act like waves. Planck's
constant determines how "big" the waves are.

> If you say you are reducing the effect of an electronic charge by the
> same percentage that you are reducing the mass, all should be good,
> even if that means plank's constant has changed, which, I admit, I
> was hoping to avoid... but when you mentioned that you created a
> set of mechanics which worked perfectly well w/ all the constants
> changing... hmm.

Yes, but the thing is, the set of changes essentially amount to
changing the scale of the universe. Whoopee. No one *inside* would be
able to tell the difference.

> I'm thinking that perhaps these constants come out of evaluating
> quantities such as the size of an atom.... in other words, perhaps
> ZPF taming (inertial suppression & fundamental force suppression)
> would end up modifying these so-called constants. But I don't know
> enough about plank's to really make that assessment. Basically, what
> I'm driving at here, is if you dropped the values of the fundamental
> forces, would planck's constant also change as a result of that? If
> so, then we've got a bit of a squirrely situation which might just
> work mathematically, but which would make your average physics
> doctorate have a cow.

There actually *are* people who've tried to work out what the universe
would be like if the values of various fundamental constants were
different. And it turns out that anything other than truly miniscule
changes will result in physics such that *matter* won't exist. 

As I recall, one of the common results is that no atoms other than
"protium" (H1) could exist. All because of interactions between the
different constants.

> Well, I'm sorta torn between this idea and Alcubierre's FTL (space
> warping) idea, but we've discussed that one a few months ago, and
> if I remember correctly, you made the contention that it leads to
> wormholes and time travel, which we really don't want to deal with.
> That's (a small) part of the reason I was hoping to use this inertial
> suppression idea instead, but if it can't be explained in a way that
> a physics major would say... "hmm... interesting... and I can't really
> disprove it either... nor does it lead to ridiculous & exploitable
> technologies" then maybe it shouldn't be used. I'm shooting for
> something with a hard-SF feel. If we wanted soft-SF, we'd use
> hyperspace and quasispace from starcon2.

Ok, FTL *must* lead to time-travel. Period. No way out.

Because of the way time and space are related, *any* pair of events A &
B such that the "interval" (the 4d space-time equivalent of distance in
3d space) between them is "FTL" (ie light couldn't get from the
location of A to the location of B in the time between the two events)
*is* time travel in at least one frame of reference.

That is, for observers moving at some speed relative to A & B, B will
occur before A. 

And no, this is *not* a mere matter of observatiuon. *Correcting* for the
relative motion, B happens first.

It's a matter of geometry. Completely unavoidable. Things like going
thru another universe don't help, because it doesn't matter *how* you
get from A to b faster than light, just that you *did*. 

So you just have to live with it. 

In Traveller, it's moderately difficult to travel into the past.
Because the jump drive is "slow" enough that you'd have to get ships
moving at a fair fraction of lightspeed to get them into the past.

Also, just because time travel is possible doesn't mean it is *useful*.

Assuming global casuality is preserved (ie effects always have causes,
even if some observers see them in reverse order) but local causality
isn't (ie some observers see effects before causes), then you can
travel in time, but you can't *change* anything. 

So if you went back to last week to try to stop yourself from doing
something, *something* would happen. You might break your leg, or get
arrested for jaywalking or something. 

But if you went to last week somewhere *else*, you'd have some
freedom, because you wouldn't *know* what the past was *there*. 

Check out Dr. Robert Forward's novel Timemaster for a wormhole based
FTL drive that allows time travel and complies with this sort of
restrictions.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 03:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 02:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <B8DD422F.3A0F2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all.

I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
plug it in and get the cost in Credits.

See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to

http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 05:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Apr 13 04:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cb77b2c.15566185@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
 <3cb77b2c.15566185@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020413131941.21300d11.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> The crew needed for the ship is a little steep, since it needs about
> 65 million times the population of present-day Terra.

Not really.

Consider that the entire volume is used, compared to just the surface.

You didn't fit a 6G manuever drive. I'm dissappointed  :-)

I really, really have to do some FF&S calculations. I think that the
staterooms should fit well into the volume, even leaving space for other
machinery.

On a serious note: Really large ships need some kind of internal rapid
transit system. Has anyone played around with numbers for this? Just
designing tunnels of a certain diameter and making a subway system should
work fine.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 05:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Sat Apr 13 04:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] Website update - Links page refreshed
Message-ID: <8A25820D-4ED0-11D6-8747-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support
http://www.bits.org.uk/

Another website update - thank you to a number of people who pointed out 
that there were a large number of links that didn't work anymore. As a 
result, I've just checked and updated the links.

Additions include Traveller Central, the TML archives, Solsec, 
Quiklink.... Thanks to Tod Glenn and Mark Urbin for the suggestions they 
gave me in January (!!).

Deletions include Halfway Station and the Missouri Archive. In the case of 
the latter, does anyone know where it's gone or have an email address for 
Joe heck. I'm willing to put the material up at BITS but need to get hold 
of it first.

If you have a website you think should be there - Traveller, SF or retail 
related* - let me know.

*retailers get there if they either stock Traveller or BITS or will order 
the material in.

Cheers,

Dom
BITS webmaster
webmaster@bits.org.uk

---------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com----------
     MacOS X 10.1 - Unix with Style
"Reality, is something that you rise above..
We don't see things as they are,  we see them as we are."
Rich - Marillion - .com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat Apr 13 05:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] Website update - Links page refreshed
In-Reply-To: <8A25820D-4ED0-11D6-8747-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEGMDKAA.tml@downport.com>

http://traveller.mu.org/ the Missouri Archive

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Dominic Mooney
Deletions include Halfway Station and the Missouri Archive. In the case of
the latter, does anyone know where it's gone or have an email address for
Joe heck. I'm willing to put the material up at BITS but need to get hold
of it first.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 07:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr 13 06:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a  starship?
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020411151634.0209ac08@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <DAV14LEGhUOjO0L6WkQ00004c57@hotmail.com>


> Good post.

Thank you, sir.

>A couple of points to think about: one of them being the
> general piracy scenario (but that's not one I want to go into now).

Same here, actually.  My main purpose here is to use the pirate scenario to
illuminate certain ideas concerning insurance and (later on) litigation.  I
have no interest in proving how many pirates can dance on the head of a pin.
<g>

>The
> other being the definition of when the ship becomes salvage (versus the
> recovery of stolen property).  Hopefully someone with better knowledge of
> maritime law can chime in here, but the rule of thumb that I've used IMTU
> goes as follows:

<Followed by five paragraphs chocked full of Traveller gaming goodness.>

I like the way you handle salvage IYTU.  I especially like the "Ownership
Abandoned" list put out by insurance companies for tax purposes.

After scrying using the Orb of Google, it appears that we may both mean the
Law of Finds rather than salvage.

Salvage appears to be recompense for the rescue or recovery of a vessel or
property for which ownership can be established.  In many cases, this
compensation is such that simply giving the salvor salvaged property is the
best way to straighten things out.

Law of Finds would seem to apply where ownership can't be determined in a
reasonable period of time, or ownership has been abandoned.  Law of Finds
basically says "Finders keepers, losers weepers."  You find it - you keep
it.

Note also that special cases seem to apply to historical shipwrecks and
military vessels.

http://www.cpanet.freeserve.co.uk/salvagelaw.htm

www.law.cornell.edu/background/amistad/salvage.html

http://law.freeadvice.com/admiralty_maritime/salvage_and_treasure/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lasalle/owners.html

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 07:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr 13 06:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Images - Visual goodies for Traveller games
Message-ID: <DAV582gNDSWnV8u622h00004bc9@hotmail.com>

Not to mention some genuinely fascinating stuff.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DD422F.3A0F2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>

At 02:02 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Greetings all.
>
>I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
>currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
>CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
>plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
>
>See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
>
>http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html

I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:19:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:19:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Russian translation?
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080300.009fb870@mindspring.com>

Quick question for Trojan Reach.

What is the correct translation of New Moscow?  In Anglic characters, please.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Russian translation?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080300.009fb870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB84D28.11DDCBDC@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> Quick question for Trojan Reach.
> 
> What is the correct translation of New Moscow?  In Anglic characters, please.

Novaya Moskva.

In as close to Cyrillic as ASCII allows, "HOBARA MOCKBA", where the "R"
is reversed to become the Cyrillic "ya."

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DD9BDF.3A104%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:05 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
>> I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
>> currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
>> CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
>> plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
>> 
>> See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
>> 
>> http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> 
> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> 

What browser are you using?  What currency did you try to convert?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CB84E2C.D57685D0@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 02:02 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Greetings all.
> >
> >I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
> >currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
> >CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
> >plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
> >
> >See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
> >
> >http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> 
> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.

Well, things were less expensive when Traveller first came out.... ;-)

I get the same results, regardless of currency tried.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB84E2C.D57685D0@premier.net>
Message-ID: <B8DD9D45.3A108%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:26 AM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:

>> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> 
> Well, things were less expensive when Traveller first came out.... ;-)
> 
> I get the same results, regardless of currency tried.

Are you using commas in the amount?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DD9D45.3A108%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB8507B.5ABAC1B9@premier.net>


Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> on 4/13/02 8:26 AM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:
> 
> >> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> >
> > Well, things were less expensive when Traveller first came out.... ;-)
> >
> > I get the same results, regardless of currency tried.
> 
> Are you using commas in the amount?

No, I'm not.  (Should I?)  And to answer the question you asked Doug,
I'm using Netscape Navigator 4.78.


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DD9BDF.3A104%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB85132.3D63F4E5@mindspring.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/13/02 8:05 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
> >> I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
> >> currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
> >> CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
> >> plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
> >>
> >> See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
> >>
> >> http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> >
> > I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> >
>
> What browser are you using?  What currency did you try to convert?
>
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

I'm getting Cr 0 also. 1 to 1e6 Cr. With or without commas, periods, etc....

Obtrav: The exchange rate for TL 8 systems without regular interstellar commerce
SUCKS!


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 09:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 08:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB85132.3D63F4E5@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:39 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

> 
> I'm getting Cr 0 also. 1 to 1e6 Cr. With or without commas, periods, etc....
> 
> Obtrav: The exchange rate for TL 8 systems without regular interstellar
> commerce
> SUCKS!

again.  Need platform and browser.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDA624.3A114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:50 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> on 4/13/02 8:39 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I'm getting Cr 0 also. 1 to 1e6 Cr. With or without commas, periods, etc....
>> 
>> Obtrav: The exchange rate for TL 8 systems without regular interstellar
>> commerce
>> SUCKS!
> 
> again.  Need platform and browser.


Naturally, there is a bug in older version of Netscape's JavaScript that
I'll have to code around.

Version 6.0 works fine, or course.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DDA624.3A114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>; from webmaster@travellercentral.com on Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:08:53AM -0700
References: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <B8DDA624.3A114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020413101359.A27360@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:08:53AM -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> Naturally, there is a bug in older version of Netscape's JavaScript that
> I'll have to code around.

You might want to write the thing as a Perl ( or Python or Ruby or...)
CGI.  This a good way to eliminate such issues, since CGI is a much
more standard interface.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The age of chivalry is gone.  That of sophisters, economists and
calculators has succeeded; and the glory of Europe is extinguished
forever.   --Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020413101359.A27360@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <B8DDA982.3A117%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 9:13 AM, Robert A. Uhl at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 09:08:53AM -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>> 
>> Naturally, there is a bug in older version of Netscape's JavaScript that
>> I'll have to code around.
> 
> You might want to write the thing as a Perl ( or Python or Ruby or...)
> CGI.  This a good way to eliminate such issues, since CGI is a much
> more standard interface.

But slower.  Just being quick and dirty.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 10:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 09:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits? Fixed
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413080518.009fbd00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDA9B2.3A118%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 8:05 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

> At 02:02 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>> Greetings all.
>> 
>> I just posted a new calculator at Traveller Central that converts various
>> currencies into CT Imperial Credits.  Not sure of the price of something in
>> CrImps?  Get the price in US dollars, Indian Rupees or some other currency,
>> plug it in and get the cost in Credits.
>> 
>> See  http://www.travellercentral.com under House Rules, or go straight to
>> 
>> http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/howmuch.html
> 
> I'm getting nothing but Cr 0 results.
> 

I fixed the code to work around a bug in older versions of netscape.  Please
try again.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 11:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Sat Apr 13 10:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: An Army marches on its stomach
References: <20020412150305.5859C27AC9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB866AF.A3E0F8AB@earthlink.net>

Mike asked:
>
> What do our lovely Ex Mil Travs think of this recent development?
>
> Mikey

Well, I'm not ex-mil but I am wondering just what effects the humectants
will have on the moisture-laden human gastro-intestinal system over a
period of time.

Yeah, let's just try a BM with something that doesn't absorb moisture
easily. Then again, it just may help the males in the military
understand
child birth a little better.
 
> PS You just know that someone is going end up eating the moisture sachet
> at one point. 

Naturally.

> PPS Can someone please translate what 'acceptable' actually means in the
> context of below. 

"Acceptable" as in they don't have to eat it all the time?


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 11:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Apr 13 10:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DDA1CA.3A112%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 11:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 10:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8DDB8E2.3A16C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 10:13 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61

Can you try again?  I changed some code and it seems to be fixed.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 12:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 11:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <0c7501c1e15e$495335d0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20413.101338.3x0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet...
> or even the moon?

size 7 planet is roughly 5,600,000 meters in radius. Or 748e18 m^3
volume. Or 55e18 dtons (at 13.5 m^3 per dton).

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 12:17:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 11:17:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020411155818.5b11fc3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20413.101809.8V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Christopher Pratt wrote:
>> What would be the displacement of something the sive of a planet... or
> even
>> the moon?
>
> Calculations for Luna follow:
>
> Using a diameter of 3.476 E+6 meters:
>
> Volume: 1.759 E+20 cubic meters

No. Volume is 4/3 pi r^3. You used diameter instead of radius. 

22e18 m^3

> Displacement: 1.257 E+19 displacement tons

1.6e18

> Surface area: 3.796 E+13 square meters

37.9e12 m^2

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Niches
In-Reply-To: <200204122116.DXS00114@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.112406.5e1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I keep hearing around 20,000 rads, but I've also heard that 
> someone cooked like that can linger for a day or so.  There 
> were some accidents with the Therac-25 machine where people 
> were accidentally given the maximum output of the machine 
> because of software errors.  Some of the doses were in that 
> range.
>
> Also, it's not clear how they calculate dosage.  In the 
> accident for the Therac, they describe radiation through a 
> very small cross-section of the body, but also describe a 
> calculated "whole-body" dose.
>
> If shielding worked that well per your gadget, then it would 
> be possible to build a small short range weapon that 
> consisted of shielding, a source that could produce a 20,000 
> rad/sec emission, and a shutter.
>
> I don't think that there's a handwave for "my body is dead 
> and I don't know it yet".

Doses above 600(?) rads will kill. But it'll take weeks to years. 

But as a rule of thumb, doubling the dosage halves the time to death.
And vice versa.

And unlike what we see in far too much SF on TV and in movies, there's
no sharp demarcation between "you're dead" and "you'll be ok".

Heck, if you use that rule of thumb I mentioned above, you'll find that
typical background counts will kill you in about 70 years. <g>

Oh yeah, most dosage stuff is LD50. That is, a "lethal in X days" dose
will kill 50% of those receiving it in that time. Some die sooner, some
die later.

We do have some data for *really* high exposures from a few accidents.
At least a couple *did* involve "prompt incapacitation" (5 min or less).

And the symptoms for that sort of dosage aren't pretty. Spewing form
both ends of the digestive tract, convulsions and other fun things.

Caring for someone who is *that* far gone is going to be really rough
on the other PCs. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:15:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:15:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Hyperdrive, jump, safety considerations
In-Reply-To: <200204112238.DVZ01855@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.114937.2h4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Derek Wildstar says
> <snip derek's take on adjacent ships activating their 
> hyperdrive>
>
> That sounds pretty good. It means, however, that ships might 
> have a minimum separation, which affects fleet actions.

Actually, at the velocities most fleets will be moving at, and given
the danger zones of weapons, ships are *very* unlikely to be less than
*kilometers* apart, and likely tens or even hundreds of km apart.

Being able to *see* an adjacent ship in "formation" with the naked eye
will be *very* unusual. The excepts will be things like cargo and
personnel transfer operations.

> Would we also have another problem a la B5? Starting one jump 
> field within another?

Nobody knows what happens if you try. No ship that was going to try
testing that has ever been heard from again. <eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:15:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:15:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120438.DWL01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.115941.9D3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>  
>>
>>What are you looking for characterwise?
>>
> More Intel characters, especially a computer expert.

What, you have something against Motorola employees? <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:16:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:16:25 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
In-Reply-To: <20020412.131217.-193605.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20413.120658.7M5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Grade C   Civilian cheap/Ancient Military Surplus
>> Grade B2  Military Surplus
>> Grade B1  Civilian average
>> Grade A2  Current Military
>> Grade A1  Civilian Expedition Grade
>
> Ah the lucky service men/women of today are blessed with grade A food,
> HA!
>
> Back in 1972 - 1975 all I ever saw, ate, and enjoyed, HA, were C Rations
> packed in 1953!!!

Well, back in the late 60s/early 70s, I used to grab the Air Force
equivalent ("in flight meal packs") at the commissary to take on Boy
Scout camping trips. Basicly, we used them for dinner on Friday night
when we were tired after setting up camp, and didn't feel much like
putting a lot of effort into cooking. 

Some were better than others, but none were all that *bad*. And some
things, like the fruitcake and poundcake desserts were worth fighting
over. <g>

I was using a WWII vintage messkit and a WWII canteen & cup at the
time. Turned out that Lipton "instant soup" packages made exactly
enough soup for a canteen cup full of water. 

And the cans from the meal packs fit into the cup nicely too. Boil them
for a bit and they were nice and hot.

Then again, I liked most food in the school caefteria, so I may not be
the best judge of these things. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Sat Apr 13 12:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
References: <20020413111907.EC28E27AF7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CB88500.956F16CB@ameritech.net>



> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:05:39 -0400
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
> Subject: Re: [TML] The "gun" debate
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> At 01:46 PM 4/12/02 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> > > From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> > >> Please...
> > > Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> > > sex lives.
> >Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
> >subscribe via the digest.
> >Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
> >mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT
> >political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to
> >keep the list Traveller focused.
> 
> Hmmm...I haven't noticed the thread discussing the politics of 
> ownership

<snip>

There were a few. Thankfully not followed up on by others. Hence my
statement, "the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT political
issues...." To be honest I may be reacting more to trolls in sig files
than to the threads themselves. 

Sorry if I've offended.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204121200450.15966-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20413.122049.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> learened that the IRS doesn't keep  old Windrone machines. So the records
> kept say on a Winblown 95v1 is not viewable by the IRS. Keep that in mind
> for an audit. Got that from the H&R block people in town.

Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system. 

The disk formats haven't changed (not the flopiy ones anyway) and the
newer programs can generally read the data files from the older ones.

>  O.K. add the different Apples, Atarai, Franklin, Osborne <sp?> and for
> the U.K. members I will mention the Speccy <Spectrum: flame wars on
> comp.sys.cbm about this one> Each had a different basic. To the point that
> they wer pretty much incompatible with each other. I know that ther were
> other models using other Basic formats and loading. I know that my
> prefered PC system uses GCR formatiing. I think another one is called MFD,
> but am not certain of the title.

FM (aka "single density") and MFM (aka "double density" and "high density").

Most "modern" floppy controller chips can't read FM disks. But a lot of
fairly recent ones can. For example, the Adaptec SCSI cards that
include a floppy controller can. 

With some easily available software I can read TRS-80 floppies on my
PC. To read Commodore or Apple GCR disks, I'd have to install the old
CopyIIPC deluxe option board in one of my systems. 

>  Now take all of those and what I missed. Add to that the IBuM system
> starting from the Pc jr. to current. All the differeent versions of the
> windoze NT and ## themes. I mean can you today on the X thing read a disk
> from a PC jr  on original media/format?

PCjr floppies used the same format as the PC. 

No idea what the X-box uses. 

What gets fun is when you need to read things like 8" floppies or the
whacko Amstrad 3" (*not* 3.5"!) floppies. Or cassette tapes, or stringy
floppies or other weird media.

I once had to recover a program by reading paper tape by *hand*. 

>> It is convenient for anyone who builds computer equipment for sale in the
>> Imperium to be able to send and receive X-boat messages without a lot of
>> pain or multiple conversion.  The IISS publishes standards on the encoding
>> and formats for text, image, audio, video, and holo data in a variety of
>> languages and compression algorithms (both lossless and where appropriate,
>> lossy).  The IISS also publishes both media standards and communications
>> protocol standards, so that X-boat customers have convenient ways of
>> getting messages into and out of the system.
>
>  Point well stated. Computer incompatibilities would make the Imperiaum
> fall apart. Before the MT saga. Pardon me for using the Commodore as an
> example platform in this part. It is however the only one that I know to
> any degree. On the concept of  being standard for msg and images. I see a
> parrel to the C= PC platform. Take this msg that I am writing. Written in
> PINE 4.44 my e-mail system. Sent out in ASCII. Though my actual system
> uses the PET ascii as it's default system. HTML though for a msg does bug
> me and a lot of people. On my system it presents all the commands as well
> as the msg. Yet I can use a prg from last year called Wave B2.9 <still
> Beta> that allows me to read in 80c HTML. In fact my book mark file is
> converted that way. JOs a free Beta Test DL also will read on screen HTML.

I have a DOS program called HTMSTRIP that takes HTML and produces a
reasonably formatted plain text file. It even puts in the "boxes" in
tables. 

>  Images: I can veiw off line GIF and JPG files. Also I can pritn them
> through Post Script and even EPS <Encapsulated Post Script> Images. There
> is a tool that I haven't had yet to use. That will convert PDF to PS for
> my use and zip it in PK2.04g zip. A format that I can also use in packing
> and unpacking. All on a 1984 PC.

There's a DOS program that'll view many image formats, including .AVI
and MPEG files, and play a lot of sound formats. 

>  As i showed above. There would be those that would create ways to use the
> systems to see the new items. Though I do have a tendency to bristle at
> the term "standard". Been a victim of that erronous ideaology many times
> in many situations. I do think that some sort of "chip" is needed for the
> interchange of Imperial  material. Though there are probaly PRGs to
> convert the material to local standards. As i have tools to convert Ascii
> to PET ascii. Or the ability to log onto a BBS or even here with Ansi
> colours. Making the material sutible for the local inhabitants and the
> systems that they are using. The question is the reverse possible? Which
> is where the  story plot originated.

Well, the idea is that there need to be publicly available standards.
Having multiple standards is merely inconvenient as long as the info
on the file formats is available. 

>  Using today as an example. Can the Windoze users here read a file that I
> make? Well some of them they can. The previously mentioned gwimport.exe
> file. But that is only for text, not the images. There are emulators if
> the file is make in that format <.D64, .D71, .D81> But only work if the
> user hs the tool to use the files. Vice 1.8 IIRC. So I would suggest that
> something in the reverse that is from local to Imperial would need to have
> ben created. Or t here is some sort of thing. Like you mentioned the Inet.
> Where the ability to collect items of interest is found in some form of
> compatible mannerism.

The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
to import and export files in those formats.

Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:16:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <200204122133.DXT01374@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.123907.8I6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson talks about radioactivity
> <snip>
>
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone 
> can help out and pony up their house rules).
>
> Absent any shielding, I'm estimating that 70% of a fusion (D-
> T) powerplant's energy output will be in the form of 
> neutrons.  

Except Traveller fusion plants don't use the D-T reaction. They would
appear to use some form of p-p reaction.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:16:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:16:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b8dd1a45b944@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20413.124305.2I4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> And the question is whether
> a) Is this likely (just because some sort of terrorist act is 
> possible doesn't mean that someone is trying to do it.  We didn't 
> protect against the 9/11 incident because, in past, such an act 
> simply wasn't likely enough.  The failure was to recognize that rise 
> of those willing and able to do such a thing).  There are still 
> things out there were someone could cause loss of life that we don't 
> protect against.

Just a few things off the top of my head...

Within half a mile of each other locally are the following:

A major "tank farm" for petroleum products.
A factory producing chlorine and hydrogen chloride by the ton. 
A producer of liquid oxygen (with a tank several stories tall!).
A semiconductor related plant that uses large quantities of stuff like
phosphine and arsine gases. 
A residential area.

Oh yeah, tankers dock between the chlorine/HCL producer and the tank farm...

For a real scare, read the labels on those tank cars on the railroad,
then look up the hazard warnings for the materials in question.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:17:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:17:11 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20413.125426.3y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61

You should try upgrading to 4.79.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The deadliness of combat, or Matters of Will
Message-ID: <F216ap21GXYqZM8Wapp0001d245@hotmail.com>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

     "You and Mr. Laning and I are in general agreement on this point.  
Solomani, whether Imperial or Confederate, suppress the truth of Vegan, 
Geonee, Azhanti, what-have-you revolts that finally toppled the Ziru Sirka."

Mr. Goffin,

     Thank you, sir.  Having the MYMINES, Ltd. legal department agree in 
general with my proposals is certainly heartening.  It means that I may be 
actually on to something and simply not just off my medicine.

     "An easy typographical error to make is Whipsnake, which is something 
else again, I suppose."

     My spell checker keeps wanting to "correct" my nom de List to Larceny 
Whipsnake.  Of course, it also spells Traveller with only one "L".  Silly 
CPU.
     Appropo of nothing, feeding Larsen E. Whipsnade into the wondefully 
weird "Vilani by Lonnie" engine results in this jaw breaker:

     Aagarashirenedanashiramik Huugarashire

     I think we may have stumbled across the name of the Vilani ambassador 
who visited the Sol system between the 2nd and 3rd Interstellar Wars and 
reported that Terra was nothing more than a "nest of pirates."  Oddly 
enough, immediately after that visit, Ambassador Huugarashire was able to 
retire rather earlier than most Ziru Sirka civil servants thanks in part to 
a very generous bequest in the will of a long lost uncle.  Even more oddly, 
the bequest was paid in Terran Confederation sols.  All inquiries about this 
strange turn of events should be directed to the ambassador's new address 
and should also use his new title.  Please forward all correspondance and/or 
summons to "King Huugarashire, third hammock from the left, the Isle of 
Yap."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <F264Wf26myeOi1EkcZy0001ef51@hotmail.com>

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

     "Except Traveller fusion plants don't use the D-T reaction. They would 
appear to use some form of p-p reaction."


Mr. Erickson,

     I know you've posted information on the p-p reaction many times before, 
but could you do so again please?  I'd like to see what sort of particles 
we'd be dealing with using that specific reaction.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 14:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Apr 13 13:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
In-Reply-To: <3CB88500.956F16CB@ameritech.net>
References: <20020413111907.EC28E27AF7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413165050.01a26eb0@192.168.0.1>

At 02:20 PM 4/13/2002 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:05:39 -0400
> > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
> > Subject: Re: [TML] The "gun" debate
> > Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > At 01:46 PM 4/12/02 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > > > Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:19:16 -0600
> > > > From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
> > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:06:32PM +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> > > >> Please...
> > > > Sheesh--just hit D, like I do when folks start mentioning their
> > > > sex lives.
> > >Unfortunately not an option for the aproximately 50% of us that
> > >subscribe via the digest.
> > >Folks this is a Traveller mailing list not a second amendment
> > >mailing list. Now the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT
> > >political issues but let us take Jens' post as a reminder to
> > >keep the list Traveller focused.
> > Hmmm...I haven't noticed the thread discussing the politics of
> > ownership
><snip>
>There were a few. Thankfully not followed up on by others. Hence my
>statement, "the discusion so far has mostly avoided OT political
>issues...." To be honest I may be reacting more to trolls in sig files
>than to the threads themselves.

Trolling sig files...Golly!   Who would do such a thing? :-)

>Sorry if I've offended.

Perhaps someone else may have been offended, but personally, I'm pretty 
thick skinned.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 15:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 13 14:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The "gun" debate
Message-ID: <20020413.142703.-23853.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

Mark

On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:52:38 -0400 Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
>
> Perhaps someone else may have been offended, but personally, I'm 
> pretty thick skinned.

Oh, thick skinned huh?

What's your armor rating?

Turokan :~)

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 15:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Apr 13 14:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Images - Visual goodies for Traveller games
In-Reply-To: <DAV582gNDSWnV8u622h00004bc9@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV582gNDSWnV8u622h00004bc9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020413234102.6af49573.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> Not to mention some genuinely fascinating stuff.
> 
> http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html

*drool*

Lovely link, thanks.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 15:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat Apr 13 14:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20413.101809.8V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020411155818.5b11fc3d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20413.101809.8V7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020413234327.7deee729.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> No. Volume is 4/3 pi r^3. You used diameter instead of radius. 

*sound of head hitting table repeatedly*

I think I had a bit too much stupid for breakfast that day...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 19:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Sat Apr 13 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEBPCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

John Kwon wrote :-
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone
> can help out and pony up their house rules).

Modified GURPS radiation rules follow (exposure levels OK, biological
effects off a bit in G:Comp 2).
Contact me off-list for d20 and MT versions (the latter may still
be available on the Freelance Traveller site).


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

------------------------------
Acute radiation exposures can have adverse effects. Check on the
table, rolling against HT every day the character is exposed to
at least 1 rad per day. Compare with the character's total
accumulated dose to see what the effects are.

Radiation Effects Table
Dose (rads)    HT Roll
5-70       : Fail :- A, onset 1d+6 hours, lasts 1 day
           : Critical Fail :-  A, onset 1d hours, lasts 1 day
71-150     : Fail :- A, 1d hours
           : Critical Fail :- D(H), HA within 24h
151-300    : Success :- A, B(-1) within 48h
           : Fail :- D(H), HA within 24h
           : Critical Fail :- E, 1d weeks
301-530    : Critical Success :- A, B(-1) within 48h
           : Success :- B(-2), C on exposure, D(H), HA within 48h
           : Fail :- E, 1d weeks
           : Critical Fail :- GI, within 48h
531-830    : All suffer A within 24h, C on exposure, E in 1d-1 weeks
           : Critical Success :- B(-2), D(E, H), HA within 24h
           : Success :- B(-3), D(E, H), HA within 24h
           : Fail or Critical Fail :- as per success, add
             GI within 24h
831-3000   : All suffer A within 12 hours, B(-3), C on exposure,
             D(E, H), GI within 12 hours, E in 3d+3 days
           : Critical Fail :- CV within 1d hours
3001-8000  : CV ; A, within 1d hours ; B(-3) ; C on exposure ;
             D(E, H, P) ; E, 1d days
8000+      : All suffer CV ; A within 1d hours and E within 4d hours.

* Key to Effects Table
A : Nausea, headache and vomitting (1d penalty to ST, DX, IQ).
Listed dice roll is for time of onset post exposure. Roll daily
against HT to recover 1 point of each attribute.
Critical success restores 2 points and means that symptoms are
controlled for that day.
Failure leads to the loss of 1 point, critical failure, 2.

B : Fatigue (penalty to ST and HT given). Roll daily to
recover 1 point of ST or HT on a critical
success. Failure loses 1 ST or HT point, critical failure loses 1
of each. Low Pain Threshold for seven days following exposure.

C : Incapacitation : -4 penalty on physical tasks for 2 days,
-2 on mental tasks for 1 day.

D : Skin changes. Erythema (E) is a mild reddening of the skin.
(H) refers to hair loss. Hair falls out within 24 hours.
(P) refers to partial thickness ("second degree") burns which do 1d damage.
Skin breakdown may ensue over the two weeks following exposure.

E : Death. Survival time from exposure without aggressive treatment
is given by the dice roll.

HA :- Haematopoietic syndrome - roll daily to prevent loss of 1 HT.
Stopped on critical success.
Hemophilia disadvantage in effect while ST, DX, IQ depressed.

GI :- Gastrointestinal syndrome - roll daily to prevent permanent
loss of 1 HT. Stopped on critical success. Characters have the Weak
Immune System disadvantage while affected, and are prone to diarrhoea
and fevers, in addition to symptoms listed above. If HT falls below 4,
teeth and nails begin to fall out.

CV :- Cerebral syndrome - 2 IQ and hits are lost within an hour
of exposure. Roll vs. HT to maintain consciousness (and prevent
loss of 1 HT on a critical success) every hour. With exposures
above 8000 rem, HT loss is irreversible. Consciousness checks
are made every hour at -2. Once consciousness is lost or HT falls
to zero, fitting ensues, then death.

* Long-term effects (months to years post exposure) :-
i. Cataracts - the threshold for development of lens opacities is a
dose of 200 rads. Make a HT check every six months, with a -1 for
every additional 100 rads of either acute or chronic exposure. On a
fail, the damage is spotted before it interferes with vision ; on a
critical fail, Blindness ensues.

ii. Dermatitis - cumulative exposures to the skin alone can cause
chronic skin changes. True radiation dermatitis is only seen at
exposure levels that would be lethal if they were whole
body doses (e.g. radiotherapy for some cancers). The skin effects
seen at the dose levels above are often permanent with chronic
exposures. In game terms, apply the Slow Healing or Reduced Hit
Points disadvantages to the relevant body area(s).

iii. Carcinogenesis - the probability of developing tumours varies
with the dose and the tissues affected ; the precise mechanisms of
initiation remain unclear as of 2001.
For example, the incidence of leukaemia peaks at 5-6 years post
exposure. Other malignancies have latencies of 15 to 60 years.

The probability of finding a clinically apparent malignancy
in any given year roughly increases with age. As a rule of thumb,
every 100 rads of radiation exposure increases the lifetime risk
by 1 percent.

Age   Probability  Very approximate dice rolls
< 15  1/3,000      30 on 5d6
< 35  1/750        24 on 4d6
< 54  1/125        22 or better on 4d6
< 75  1/30         12 on 2d6
> 75  1/60         17 or better on 3d6
(based on US cancer figures for 1980, both sexes)

For game purposes, a critical failure (18) on a HT roll means
that a malignancy has been detected. A -1 modifier applies for
every 200 rads of radiation exposure. Check once a year.

iv. Damage to Fertility
Reproductive cells are sensitive to radiation.
Dose (rads)    Effect
150            Sterility for 1-6 weeks
250            Sterility for 1-2 years
500            Permanent sterility in 75%
800            Permanent sterility in 100%



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 20:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Apr 13 19:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] landgrab questions
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEDOGHAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I've claimed Biter and was working on by landgrab and I have a few questions

What is the fleet number for the Imperial Sword World subsector fleet?
Where is it headquartered?
What is Lunion's fleet number?
Does it help out imperial forces in the Sword Worlds?



________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat Apr 13 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of malfunction?
Message-ID: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>

Authenticity Disclaimer:  This information has not been verified by me or
anyone that I personally trust.  I do not know if the facts cited are true.

I await comment from the learned members of this group.

<Begin snip>

OFFICER SAFETY WARNING

Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) Unit Causes
Malfunction of Officer's Issue Firearm

In July 2001, an officer from the Manheim Township (Lancaster County,
Pennsylvania) Police Department had an incident where his issue firearm
malfunctioned. The Smith & Wesson, Model 4013, .40 S&W caliber,
semi-automatic pistol was found to have a magnetized firing pin, which stuck
to the side of the channel within the slide. Upon inspection, it was
determined that the entire pistol had become so magnetized that paper clips
actually stuck to any metal surface. The department armorer was able to
demagnetize the firearm with the use of a high-power, videotape-erasing unit
after complete disassembly.

When the malfunction was discovered, the officer had no idea of when or how
his pistol had become magnetized. A review of the officer's activities,
revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical office
that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During the
investigation, the officer had walked into the MRI suite that magnetized the
pistol. MRI medical personnel have detailed instructions on safety, which
include keeping metal objects away from the unit. Upon further inspection,
two additional officer's firearms were also found to have been magnetized.

RECOMMENDATION

ALL ISSUE FIREARMS SHOULD BE CHECKED FOR THIS CONDITION

Police department and medical facility security administrative personnel
should notify officers of the following:

Investigations within medical facilities could magnetize an issue firearm
rendering it inoperable.

The test to determine if a firearm has become magnetized is to place a paper
clip next to the firearm.

If the paper clip sticks to the firearm, a supervisor should be notified
immediately.

A trained department-designated officer should verify the firearm is
magnetized and the firearm should be demagnetized with the use of a
high-powered videotape-erasing unit after it has been completely
disassembled.

The firearm should be test fired prior to being returned to service.

The fact that there is no outward sign that a firearm may not function as a
result of MRI/magnetic exposure makes this problem difficult to detect.
Awareness of this situation may prevent serious or deadly consequences.

Source: Sing, Lieutenant Douglas K. Manheim Township (Lancaster County,
Pennsylvania) Police Department Revised March 2002.

<end snip>

from website

http://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/officersafetyMRI.htm

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DDB8E2.3A16C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413200302.009ee460@mindspring.com>

At 10:28 AM 4/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>on 4/13/02 10:13 AM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > Tod Glenn wrote:
> >
> > P133, windows 95, netscape 4.61
>
>Can you try again?  I changed some code and it seems to be fixed.

Works now, nice little utility.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:08:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:08:21 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of
 malfunction?
In-Reply-To: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413200431.009efbd0@mindspring.com>

At 09:30 PM 4/13/02 -0500, you wrote:
>When the malfunction was discovered, the officer had no idea of when or how
>his pistol had become magnetized. A review of the officer's activities,
>revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical office
>that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During the
>investigation, the officer had walked into the MRI suite that magnetized the
>pistol. MRI medical personnel have detailed instructions on safety, which
>include keeping metal objects away from the unit. Upon further inspection,
>two additional officer's firearms were also found to have been magnetized.

Considering the officer had to walk past large signs warning that a BIG 
freaking magnet was in use, I think the department should charge him for 
the repairs.

I accidentally left my steel wedding ring on during my last MRI.  The damn 
thing vibrated to the point it actually became warm.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Terran/Vilani conflict (Was: Deadliness of combat)
In-Reply-To: <20020411004002.DF53927A7B@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140512410.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>     We've got the constant drum beat in canon about the Vilani "way of war"
>being brutally pragmatic.  They use hostages, have no qualms about nukes,
>target civilians, etc., etc., anything tactic that is cost effective.

What constant drum? We have _one_ reference that details Vilani war
practices, and that reference is of rather late vintage (MT) and is part
of the Forbidden Canon. If you find yourself unable to reconcile that with
the historical events of the Traveller Universe, then I'd suggest that its
the description of Vilani war practices that requires amendment.

>     The Ziru Sirka, or it's direct antecedents, were able to put the Vilani
>boot on the neck of quite a number of species and they've kept it there for
>millennia.  The fact that the Geonee, Suerrat, Syleans, et. al. are still
>being kept down at the same time the Terrans show up tells me that the
>Vilani could still get the job done.

It tells me that they didn't exterminate minor races wantonly, claims
about their ruthlessness to the contrary notwithstanding. So maybe they
weren't quite so ruthless as they are painted in _Cogs&Dogs_.

>     "The Vilani might not have appreciated what the Terrans were really
>capable of, or were under strict rules *not* to commit mass murder."
>
>     After losing the first two Interstellar Wars and visiting the Sol
>system, the Vilani should have known what the Terrans were really capable
>of.  GT:RoF also mentions that the Vilani, when faced with the bewildering
>welter of Terran cultures and genotypes, thought they were facing an
>alliance of several minor human races.  That "threat" alone should have
>spurred some sort of response.

Like a search for the other homeworlds of the alliance? I certainly can't
blame the poor Vilani governor for wanting to locate the other homeworlds
before destroying the only one he knew of. For all he knew Terra was just
the catspaw and the other races of the alliance the real threat...

>     It's the dichotomy that get's me wondering.  We've got ZS governors
>still keeping the boot on the neck of umpteen minor races, we've got the
>coreward governors arming and using Vargr mercs in political power games
>against each other, and, at the same time, we've got governor after governor
>after on the Rim behaving completely unlike the others throughout the ZS and
>losing piddling wars to a minor race nearly totally confined to a single
>system.

The Terrans made a huge effort early in the game to disperse to other
worlds precisely because they feared that Terra would be destroyed. By the
time the Vilani realized that they had a real fight on their hands, the
Terrans were no longer confined to a single system. And don't forget the
other members of that alliance of minor races...

>     "Imagine what slaughtering 7+ billion sentients would do?"
>
>     But they'd done it in the past, i.e. the Sky Raiders, and were
>currently threatening to do it to others, the many minor races being held
>down, so why didn't it happen to Sol?  The Ziru Sirka had the numbers, it
>had better technology, and it was chillingly ruthless.  How did it happen to
>lose?

Well, my take is that they didn't have the numbers. If the Vilani (as I
believe) considered 50 to 500 million an ideal size for a planetary
population and deliberately kept their major worlds fstable at those
levels, Terra could actually have outnumbered all the vilani worlds in
[Vilani name for Sol Sector] Sector.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 21:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Apr 13 20:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
References: <20020413111905.52B7127AF6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004701c1e367$1bb70380$705e8690@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> But if you went to last week somewhere *else*, you'd have some
> freedom, because you wouldn't *know* what the past was *there*.
>
> Check out Dr. Robert Forward's novel Timemaster for a wormhole based
> FTL drive that allows time travel and complies with this sort of
> restrictions.

A week or two back I started working on an idea for a solo game.  It's since
developed into a world design system for a non-OTU game.  I'm using a
wormhole based FTL, as it allows you to use network/area mapping, and not
bother with "uninteresting" systems.

I'm going for a very abstract system, so fudges like this aren't a problem.

(Memo to self: does "FTL radio" exist?)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Deadliness of combat
In-Reply-To: <20020412005321.E214327A98@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>    All of Holland worked for their resistance, the Germans had a devil of
>time finding collaborators there.  The Danes, from the King on down, wore
>the yellow Star of David and helped their Jews escape to Sweden.

Actually, the story goes that King Christian threatened to wear the yellow
Star of David if it was forced on Danish Jews. I'm not sure how much truth
there is in that story. Denmark's situation during the early years of
occupation was anomalous. The Germans pretended that they were in Denmark
merely to protect us against attack by the Allies and that we were their
ally. Consequently they were hampered in just what they could 'request'
the Danish government to do. For instance, Danish Jews were never required
to wear the Star of David.

Indeed, I've been told that the Allies might have treated Denmark as a
true ally of Germany if it hadn't been for three things: Free Danish
sailors volunteering in droves to serve on English ships, the rescue of
the Jews, and the efforts of the Danish Resistance.

>ObTrav - So, from the Vilani point of view, who were the "French" to the
>Terran's "Nazis" during the Interstellar Wars?  The Vegans?  Some other
>human minor race?

Well, I imagine the Dingiransmust have become pretty thoroughly 'Terranized'
over the years for them to be made the new capital.



Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:10:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:10:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
In-Reply-To: <200204120438.DWL01193@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DE4F27.3A29F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/11/02 9:38 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>> 
>> What are you looking for characterwise?
>> 
> More Intel characters, especially a computer expert.
> 

No way, John.  That's too much like real life (I'm an IT professional).  The
computer expert does *not* wish to play a computer expert.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Send more humans
Message-ID: <200204140417.EAC00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson writes:
>What, you have something against Motorola employees? <g>
>
No, just AMD.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Deadliness of combat
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>; from rancke@diku.dk on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200
References: <20020412005321.E214327A98@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020413222116.A28871@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> Denmark's situation during the early years of occupation was
> anomalous.  The Germans pretended that they were in Denmark merely
> to protect us against attack by the Allies and that we were their
> ally.  Consequently they were hampered in just what they could
> 'request' the Danish government to do.

ISTR that at one point the King of Denmark was arrested.  It took
quite a bit of German military might to defeat retainers armed with
quarter-staffs, pole-arms and swords.  Or is that another king I'm
thinking of--or purely an urban legend?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To believe in gun control, one has to believe that guns are not an
effective means of self-defense, which is why police carry them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204140424.EAD00152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
<snip the hazards near his home>

Not too far from here is the Calvert Cliffs nuclear plant.  
A "very" short distance from there is a docking platform for 
LNG (liquified natural gas) tankers.  The dock and pipeline 
is not in use at the moment, but they are talking about 
reactivating it.

I remember reading about "sublimation" accidents.  They say 
that an ocean-going LNG tanker holds the equivalent of tens 
of kilotons of explosive power.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204140424.EAD00152@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DE54E0.3A2B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 9:24 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Not too far from here is the Calvert Cliffs nuclear plant.
> A "very" short distance from there is a docking platform for
> LNG (liquified natural gas) tankers.  The dock and pipeline
> is not in use at the moment, but they are talking about
> reactivating it.
> 
> I remember reading about "sublimation" accidents.  They say
> that an ocean-going LNG tanker holds the equivalent of tens
> of kilotons of explosive power.

All you need is a big ship of fertilizer.  Remember Texas City?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 22:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 13 21:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204140452.EAD01433@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod says
<snip Texas City>

The problem with an LNG tanker is that anyone with a .50 BMG 
rifle within 1 km can put a hole in one of the tanks.  It 
doesn't have to be a HE or HEI round.  But once that leak 
pops, there's a runaway sublimation effect that blows the 
tank open and then the whole ship goes.

There were some concerns voiced about the effect that ships 
like this might have in a confined waterway.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 23:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat Apr 13 22:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEBPCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <000301c1e373$27a9fb00$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Robert O'Connor
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 18:47
To: TML, New
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules

John Kwon wrote :-
> I'm really thinking about radioactivity rules (unless someone
> can help out and pony up their house rules).

Modified GURPS radiation rules follow (exposure levels OK, biological
effects off a bit in G:Comp 2).
Contact me off-list for d20 and MT versions (the latter may still
be available on the Freelance Traveller site).


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

------------------------------

Damn that was a good post Robert!  Kudos.  This one gets the CDR
treatment.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 13 23:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 13 22:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] JTAS question
Message-ID: <20020414.013949.-343735.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

Can someone summarize for me what is covered the article "A Traveller
Bibliography" in JTAS #8?



                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 00:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Apr 13 23:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Deadliness of combat
In-Reply-To: <20020413222116.A28871@4dv.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140551370.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>; from rancke@diku.dk on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200
Message-ID: <3CB9C6FE.12042.25C89E@localhost>

On 13 Apr 2002, at 22:21, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 06:04:53AM +0200, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> > Denmark's situation during the early years of occupation was
> > anomalous.  The Germans pretended that they were in Denmark merely
> > to protect us against attack by the Allies and that we were their
> > ally.  Consequently they were hampered in just what they could
> > 'request' the Danish government to do.

> ISTR that at one point the King of Denmark was arrested.  It took
> quite a bit of German military might to defeat retainers armed with
> quarter-staffs, pole-arms and swords.  Or is that another king I'm
> thinking of--or purely an urban legend?

I believe that what happened is that the Germans arrived just as the 
Royal Guard was conducting a full dress parade, so the Guards 
formed a double line and commenced disciplined volley fire (it must 
have looked like something straight out of the Napoleonic wars, 
only with bolt action rifles). This took the Germans somewhat by 
surprise and several were killed, but once they recovered from the 
initial shock, they started bringing up heavy weapons at which 
point the King ran out and ordered that the Guards surrender.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 00:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 13 23:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204140452.EAD01433@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8DE7400.3A2DE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/13/02 9:52 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> The problem with an LNG tanker is that anyone with a .50 BMG
> rifle within 1 km can put a hole in one of the tanks.  It
> doesn't have to be a HE or HEI round.  But once that leak
> pops, there's a runaway sublimation effect that blows the
> tank open and then the whole ship goes.

Sublimation?  It is LNG right?  You have to have a solid transform directly
to a gas for it to be sublimation.

Carbon Dioxide ice sublimates.

Tod
(former Chemist) 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 01:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 00:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <F264Wf26myeOi1EkcZy0001ef51@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20413.233341.4R2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>      "Except Traveller fusion plants don't use the D-T reaction. They would 
> appear to use some form of p-p reaction."
>
>
> Mr. Erickson,
>
>      I know you've posted information on the p-p reaction many times before, 
> but could you do so again please?  I'd like to see what sort of particles 
> we'd be dealing with using that specific reaction.

The *overall* reaction is

4 H1 -> 1 He4

I don't recall the ways that (for example) the Bethe "solar phoenix"
reaction (which involves carbon as a catalyst) works. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 01:12:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 00:12:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <004701c1e367$1bb70380$705e8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20413.235758.2j2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: Leonard Erickson
>> But if you went to last week somewhere *else*, you'd have some
>> freedom, because you wouldn't *know* what the past was *there*.
>>
>> Check out Dr. Robert Forward's novel Timemaster for a wormhole based
>> FTL drive that allows time travel and complies with this sort of
>> restrictions.
>
> A week or two back I started working on an idea for a solo game.  It's since
> developed into a world design system for a non-OTU game.  I'm using a
> wormhole based FTL, as it allows you to use network/area mapping, and not
> bother with "uninteresting" systems.
>
> I'm going for a very abstract system, so fudges like this aren't a problem.
>
> (Memo to self: does "FTL radio" exist?)

Since Forward's book was published, further work was done on wormholes
and time travel.

It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
builds until it collapses the wormholes. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 03:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Apr 14 02:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of malfunction?
In-Reply-To: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020414114830.26705bd4.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> revealed that he had investigated a burglar alarm call at a medical
office
> that was equipped with a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) unit. During
the
> investigation, the officer had walked into the MRI suite that magnetized
the
> pistol.

How would this kind of problem affect gauss/railgun type weapons?

Not that any PCs would try bringing any of them through security, mind
you...

 ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 06:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 05:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
Message-ID: <200204141224.EAT00139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 06:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 05:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
Message-ID: <200204141227.EAT00280@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

(Leonard Erickson)  says
>
>I don't recall the ways that (for example) the Bethe "solar 
>phoenix" reaction (which involves carbon as a catalyst) 
>works. 
>

I thought that the CNO cycle was a relatively "slow" rate 
reaction, even if it had a lower threshold to get started.

Also, isn't the p-p reaction the intended reaction for the 
Bussard ramjet?  I keep hearing that the p-p reaction is more 
difficult to start thant the D-T reaction.  And if we're 
going to make it so difficult, why not just use He-3?
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any
> upper limit
> ("that's no moon...")

Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
gravity well, and you misjump.

Net result : you can have a J6 planet. But no one can tell where its going.
Let's call it Heisenberg.

Regards

Andy Brick

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.346 / Virus Database: 194 - Release Date: 10/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

ObTrav: Refueling in an oxygen atmosphere, of course.  

A liquified natural gas tanker poses a fire and explosion 
hazard.  Also, even though it is cryogenically cooled, a 
certain percentage of the tankage boils off every day.

I keep hearing people say that the fuel is carried in the 
form of liquid water and converted at the last minute.  This 
would seem to be inefficient, as a substantial portion of 
your tankage would not be usable fuel.  Liquid methane 
(liquified natural gas) might be a bit better than water, and 
probably what "unrefined" fuel from a gas giant would be.  
However, a significant proportion of the fuel would still not 
be hydrogen, unless the ship was using the CNO cycle.  
However, you don't need to keep putting carbon in the cycle, 
as it is reused.

Also, I have read several times in old Traveller works about 
the "L-Hyd" tank (which seems to say "liquid hydrogen" and 
not "water").  The description in the AHL supplement 
distinctly refers to the tankage on the Fuel Deck as "L-Hyd".

But I digress.  For optimum top-off, I think that refuelling 
would take place just prior to takeoff, in the same manner 
that they refuel the shuttle a few hours before takeoff. 

There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were 
topping off with LNG or L-Hyd.  If you were in atmosphere and 
someone scored a Fuel hit with a laser weapon, I'm betting 
that the ship's fuel tanks would explode.  What would have 
been a minor hit in space would be disastrous in atmosphere.  
See what happened to the fuel tank on the shuttle when the 
SRB played a flame on it.  One fuel hit in atmosphere and 
WHAM.

Also, I'm wondering what happens if the fuel tanks adjoin 
crew spaces, as they do in so many deck plans.  Let's say you 
depressurize before combat, and close bulkhead doors.  One 
compartment or more could be filled with fuel if the ship is 
hit in certain ways.  Equipment and personnel in these areas 
would be instantly destroyed/killed by cryogenic liquid.  

I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot 
of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and 
ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how 
it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only 
lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure - 
the fuel is subdivided into several large tanks, perhaps more 
on large combat vessels - but not on a small ship, which 
might have at most two separate tanks.  It would be hard to 
effectively pump fuel from a holed tank, if it was able to 
retain fuel at all after the hit.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>; from andy@exeus.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 01:59:26PM +0100
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 01:59:26PM +0100, Andy Brick wrote:
> 
> Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> gravity well, and you misjump.

Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
Betelgeuse.  So are you.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Mit den Frauen ist das wie mit den Firewalls: was [...] am meisten
Sicherheit garantiert und am wenigsten Probleme macht, ist immer das,
was zum speziellen Fall am besten passt.
                        --Urs Traenkner in de.comp.security.firewall

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An interesting product - anything like this in Traveller?
Message-ID: <200204141322.EAV00067@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

In any ship or vehicle design sequence, is there anything 
like this?  It seems to be an internal add-on that reduces 
the potential for internal explosions.

http://www.blastgard.net/outlook.asp

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:24:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:24:06 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
References: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c1e3b7$e7bc9260$52200050@matt>

> I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot
> of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and
> ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how
> it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only
> lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure -
> the fuel is subdivided into several large tanks, perhaps more
> on large combat vessels - but not on a small ship, which
> might have at most two separate tanks.  It would be hard to
> effectively pump fuel from a holed tank, if it was able to
> retain fuel at all after the hit.

How about self sealing linings around the tanks... the fuel loss is that
lost before the hole gets sealed...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting 
>a pull on Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>

Which made me dislike the "100 D" limit.  If I am at the 100 
D limit for Earth (at earth's distance from Sol, which has 
its own gravitational pull), what is the value of G?

Now let's compare that to the same value at 100 D from 
Jupiter.  I would bet that it's different.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <200204141331.EAV00387@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Matthew Bond" says
>
>How about self sealing linings around the tanks... the fuel 
>loss is that lost before the hole gets sealed...
>

On a cryogenic tank, no less.  Must be some of that 
Unobtanium lining the fuel tanks.

I think also, that we're probably talking about a fairly 
large spot size for ship laser weapons.  If they are anything 
like the planned SBL, the spot size will be around 1 foot.  
The hole in the fuel tank is likely to be larger, since the 
spot will move some.  And explosive missiles (if forged 
fragments, HEAT jets, or kinetic impactors) are going to make 
holes more than a few inches in diameter (or larger).  Self-
sealing only seems to work on modern aircraft fuel tanks for 
small non-explosive projectiles.

________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <F209IlOAPE3EzbwJp8k00003548@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBA2ECF.32620.8436A0@localhost>

On 13 Apr 2002 at 5:09, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      GURPS Compedium II has servicable rad rules.  IIRC, there are some MT 
> rules in a DGP Digest issue that deal with exposure rather exhaustively.

They're a bit messed up on what types of critters are most sensitive to 
radiation though, IIRC. Those rules have it that birds are something 
like 5 times _less_ sensitive to radiation than mammales, when AFAIK 
they're rather _more_ sensitive to radiation in RL.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 07:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 14 06:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEBPCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <3CBA30BC.19744.8BBA6A@localhost>

On 14 Apr 2002 at 11:47, Robert O'Connor wrote:

> iv. Damage to Fertility
> Reproductive cells are sensitive to radiation.
> Dose (rads)    Effect
> 150            Sterility for 1-6 weeks
> 250            Sterility for 1-2 years
> 500            Permanent sterility in 75%
> 800            Permanent sterility in 100%

Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
men, if you prefer)?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 08:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hullo

> > Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> > simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> > gravity well, and you misjump.
>
> Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
> Betelgeuse.  So are you.

But, unlike the Earth, the gravitational pull exerted by a human is not
sufficient to cause a misjump, which was my point.

I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.

A rough back of envelope calculation would be that the acceleration due to
gravity at 100 diameters is 2.43e-04 ms^-2. Given a body with the same
density as the Earth, then we're looking at 5.56g per cubic centimetre, or
5560 kg per cubic metre. This gives us a solid, uniform sphere 156 metres in
radius and with a mass of 8.841e10 kg, or a displacement tonnage of about
1,178,000 dTons. Hollow the sphere out and it would change things, but I'd
say that as a rough rule of thumb, a vessel with equivalent g at its surface
is never likely to reach its destination ...

Andy Brick


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 09:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Sun Apr 14 08:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net>

Any update on T20?

Does anyone know when we are likely to see the 'offending' article ?

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 09:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Apr 14 08:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <200204102004.32826.red@archonet.com>
 <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020414155356.08d6b44c.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Andy Brick wrote:
> Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> gravity well, and you misjump.
> 
> Net result : you can have a J6 planet. But no one can tell where its
going.
> Let's call it Heisenberg.

But all ships generate their own gravity wells...

Not of that magnitude, but still.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 10:35:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Apr 14 09:35:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Contact for Alvin Plummer?
Message-ID: <qibjbu0n0ieulkqta2ce6cslh5a727u1lf@4ax.com>

One of his articles on Freelance Traveller was slightly corrupted (on my
original, dammit!), and I need to talk to him to get the information needed
to uncorrupt it.  Can anyone pass me his address (off-list, please), or ask
him to contact me?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 10:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Apr 14 09:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <robjbu0fqnq6n9dnqt5e35f7a8qulahh5m@4ax.com>

On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 15:12:04 +0100, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
wrote:

>Hullo
>
>> > Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own =
gravity
>> > simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating =
inside a
>> > gravity well, and you misjump.
>>
>> Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
>> Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>
>But, unlike the Earth, the gravitational pull exerted by a human is not
>sufficient to cause a misjump, which was my point.
>
>I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
>Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.
>
>A rough back of envelope calculation would be that the acceleration due =
to
>gravity at 100 diameters is 2.43e-04 ms^-2. Given a body with the same
>density as the Earth, then we're looking at 5.56g per cubic centimetre, =
or
>5560 kg per cubic metre. This gives us a solid, uniform sphere 156 =
metres in
>radius and with a mass of 8.841e10 kg, or a displacement tonnage of =
about
>1,178,000 dTons. Hollow the sphere out and it would change things, but =
I'd
>say that as a rough rule of thumb, a vessel with equivalent g at its =
surface
>is never likely to reach its destination ...

Not that I'm up on the necessary math, but I would be interested in
the tidal force counterpart of these calculations.  I was very
impressed by the correspondence that was found between the tidal force
at 100 diameters and the effects which are described in Traveller.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 10:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sun Apr 14 09:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
In-Reply-To: <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEHLDKAA.tml@downport.com>

visit www.TravellerRPG.com for official T20 info... as to the offending
article, were you speaking of yourself or was it some sort of slight aimed
at a certain segment of Traveller players? :p

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Si

Any update on T20?

Does anyone know when we are likely to see the 'offending' article ?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Apr 14 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <F123KlnZcjKJXHC1gsW0000fa6c@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
men, if you prefer)?"


Mr. Boleyn,

     You are correct, sir.  Women never produce new eggs, they carry their 
lifetime supply with them at all times.  Men on the other hand continually 
produce new reproductive materials and must get rid of the older stuff to 
make room for the new.  That in itself explains quite a bit about male 
behavior.
     So, a female may be caring damaged genetic material if she had been 
exposed at ANY TIME during her life.  Males, due to their constant 
production of genetic material, only run the risk of donating damaged 
material if the exposure has been in the recent past.
     GURPS, in Compendium II, handles this in the following manner.  If a 
female has a lifetime dose of 250 rads, her offspring, and any problems they 
may have, are entirely at the GM's discretion.  If a male has recieved a 
dose of 100 rads within the last week, the same rule applies.
     A lfietime dose can be thought of as a running total of exposure that 
NEVER heals, it never goes away.  A female PC that recieved 25 seperate ten 
rad doses over several years of game time may have easily survived the 
effects of each of those exposures.  The burns, blood problems, and whatnot 
may be long behind her, but her lifetime dose is now 250 rads and any of her 
offspring are at the GM's mercy.
     Realistic?  Yes.  "Fair"?  No, but then again life is never fair.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 12:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Apr 14 11:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] landgrab questions
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEDOGHAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3CB9CF31.40F7C89F@mindspring.com>

John-Martin wrote:


> I've claimed Biter and was working on by landgrab and I have a few questions
>
> What is the fleet number for the Imperial Sword World subsector fleet?

Flipping open the rebellion source book we find........There is none. The
nearest is Lunion 43, or Vilis 193. Oddly I see Fleet 208 is assigned to all the
way over in Five sisters. But none in the Sword Worlds.

>
> Where is it headquartered?

See above

>
> What is Lunion's fleet number?

See above

>
> Does it help out imperial forces in the Sword Worlds?

We have no forces in the Sword Worlds. Those are just nasty rumors and Sword
Worlder propaganda. Please, have another drink and a narco stick. Enjoy the
music.



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 12:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Apr 14 11:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Terran/Vilani conflict (Was: Deadliness of combat)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140512410.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3CB9CF94.4CB5EF74@mindspring.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

Forbidden Canon.
???!




--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I like a woman with a head on her shoulders. I hate necks.
                               -Steve Martin



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 14:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 13:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <200204142037.NAA19289@molly.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Also, I have read several times in old Traveller works about 
>the "L-Hyd" tank (which seems to say "liquid hydrogen" and 
>not "water").  The description in the AHL supplement 
>distinctly refers to the tankage on the Fuel Deck as "L-Hyd".

Canon is clearly liquid hydrogen.
>
>There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were 
>topping off with LNG or L-Hyd.  If you were in atmosphere and 
>someone scored a Fuel hit with a laser weapon, I'm betting 
>that the ship's fuel tanks would explode.

Nope, no oxygen.  The fuel leak will almost certainly ignite, however.
>been a minor hit in space would be disastrous in atmosphere.  
>See what happened to the fuel tank on the shuttle when the 
>SRB played a flame on it.  One fuel hit in atmosphere and 
>WHAM.

That's because of having both liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen, which
makes for a very nice bomb.

>Also, I'm wondering what happens if the fuel tanks adjoin 
>crew spaces, as they do in so many deck plans.  Let's say you 
>depressurize before combat, and close bulkhead doors.  One 
>compartment or more could be filled with fuel if the ship is 
>hit in certain ways.  Equipment and personnel in these areas 
>would be instantly destroyed/killed by cryogenic liquid.  

Fuel tanks are probably double-walled.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 14:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 14 13:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 09:26:52AM -0400
References: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020414144128.A5149@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 09:26:52AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> Which made me dislike the "100 D" limit.  If I am at the 100 
> D limit for Earth (at earth's distance from Sol, which has 
> its own gravitational pull), what is the value of G?
> 
> Now let's compare that to the same value at 100 D from 
> Jupiter.  I would bet that it's different.

I'd assume that the 100D limit must have nothing to do with gravity,
but instead have to do, somehow, with the actual physical size of an
object.  Perhaps physical objects imprint themselves in jump space,
but do to its properties they imprint a far larger area.  Or
something:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`When you wake up in the morning, Pooh,' said Piglet at last,
`what's the first thing you say to yourself?'
`What's for breakfast?' said Pooh. `What do you say, Piglet?'
`I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?' said Piglet.
Pooh nodded thoughtfully. `It's the same thing,' he said.
                                            --A.A. Milne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 14:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 14 13:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>; from andy@exeus.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 03:12:04PM +0100
References: <20020414071553.A4284@4dv.net> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020414144249.B5149@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 03:12:04PM +0100, Andy Brick wrote:
> 
> I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
> Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.

I believe the rule is any object larger than 1/2 mile will trigger
jump precipation.  So someone needs to calculate the gravity of, say,
a 1/2 mile wide rocky body.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
It's better to have a weapon and not need it than to need a weapon and
not have it.                                     --Sir Clarence Worley

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-lethal weapons in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <B8B628F4.2D246%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20414.132135.5B6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 3/14/02 9:42 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>> The speed of sound is around 1200 m/s. That means that a 10 Hz sound
>> wave has a wavelngth of 120 meters. A quarter wavelength "antenna" is
>> going to be 30 meters.
>
> Oops.  I think you meant 330 m/s.  I wish it were 1200m/s.  It would make
> silencing rifles a lot easier.

Ok, I seem to have screwed up a step in converting from the figure I
could recall (mph) to the one I wanted (m/s).

> And does sound really propagate like radio waves?  It's really just SIT
> between air molecules.

It's a wave phenomenon. It has wavelength and the wavelength affects
how it propogates. Wavelengtyh, frequency and speed of propogation have
a *fixed* relationship.

I think it's 

L * f = v

L = wavelength
f = frequency
v = propogation velocity

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:02:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:02:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: How Hard is it  to Steal a Starship?
In-Reply-To: <200204141224.EAT00139@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20414.133137.4r5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Care to resend this in *text* instead of base64 encoding?

In mail John T. Kwon writes:

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> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:02:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:02:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <200204141227.EAT00280@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20414.133330.3v1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> (Leonard Erickson)  says
>>
>>I don't recall the ways that (for example) the Bethe "solar 
>>phoenix" reaction (which involves carbon as a catalyst) 
>>works. 
>>
>
> I thought that the CNO cycle was a relatively "slow" rate 
> reaction, even if it had a lower threshold to get started.

In stars it takes a long time. In a fusion reactor that can run at
higher temps and pressures, who knows?

> Also, isn't the p-p reaction the intended reaction for the 
> Bussard ramjet?  I keep hearing that the p-p reaction is more 
> difficult to start thant the D-T reaction.  And if we're 
> going to make it so difficult, why not just use He-3?

p-p requires higher temperatures and pressures. But the fuel is so much
more abundant that if you can do it, it'd be *vastly* preferred.

Not only is helium-3 hard to accumulate, it's harder to store. Liquid
helium temps are something like two orders of magnitude harder to
maintain than liquid hydrogen temps (temperature differences are
logarithmic, not arithmetic. That is, what matters isn't the difference
in degrees, but rather the *ratio* of the abosolute temperatures. So
the difference between 4 K and 20 K is the "same" as the difference
between 300 K (room temp) and 1500 K (halfway between the melting
point of copper and that of iron))

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:03:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:03:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204141326.EAV00223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20414.134105.6N5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Robert A. Uhl" says
>>
>>Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting 
>>a pull on Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>
> Which made me dislike the "100 D" limit.  If I am at the 100 
> D limit for Earth (at earth's distance from Sol, which has 
> its own gravitational pull), what is the value of G?
>
> Now let's compare that to the same value at 100 D from 
> Jupiter.  I would bet that it's different.

At 100 diameters from a "rocky" type planet, the *tidal forces* will be
the same. That is, the rate of change of the strength of the gravity
field will match.

It's easy to show that any force that is the same at a given number of
*diameters* from a sphere of a given density has to be one that various
as the inverse *cube* of the distance. Which tidal forces do.

The tidal forces can also be thought of as representing how sharply
"curved" the space in that area is, which fits nicely with the jump
drive. If it is trying to "bend" space, then it's "obvious" that it'll
be more reliable if it isn't fighting the bends that already exist.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:03:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:03:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20414.134634.3h0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> We have a lower limit on starship size (100T) but is there any
>> upper limit
>> ("that's no moon...")
>
> Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
> simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
> gravity well, and you misjump.

*Everything* generates its own gravity field. 

So ships have to correct for self gravity (and possibily for their
internal gravity fields as well) anyway. A planet-ship would just have
to make bigger corrections.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:04:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hullo
>
>> > Yeah. When the body is sufficiently massive to generate its own gravity
>> > simply by being big, then the Jump Drive is *always* operating inside a
>> > gravity well, and you misjump.
>>
>> Every object has its own gravity.  I, right now, am exerting a pull on
>> Betelgeuse.  So are you.
>
> But, unlike the Earth, the gravitational pull exerted by a human is not
> sufficient to cause a misjump, which was my point.
>
> I'd reckon that anything that has a surface gravitational pull equal to
> Terra at 100 diameters is the upper limit on starships.

Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
todal forces are the same.

Inverse *cube* law.

> A rough back of envelope calculation would be that the acceleration due to
> gravity at 100 diameters is 2.43e-04 ms^-2.

And the tidal forces are 

a/l = G*M /r^3

a = acceleration
l = distance for center of object experiencing tidal forces
G = Newton's gravitational constant
M = mass of object exerting tidal forces
r = distance from center of object exerting tidal forces.

I suspect that you'll find that the forces involved at 100 diameters
from Earth are similar to those at the hull of a fairly small ship.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:04:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:04:37 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <003a01c1e3b7$e7bc9260$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20414.135536.3A4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot
>> of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and
>> ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how
>> it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only
>> lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure -
>> the fuel is subdivided into several large tanks, perhaps more
>> on large combat vessels - but not on a small ship, which
>> might have at most two separate tanks.  It would be hard to
>> effectively pump fuel from a holed tank, if it was able to
>> retain fuel at all after the hit.
>
> How about self sealing linings around the tanks... the fuel loss is that
> lost before the hole gets sealed...

And *how* are they going to self-seal? Liquid hydrogen is at 20 Kelvin.
(20 centrigrade degress above absolute zero, around -424 F)

*Any* lining is going to be frozen solid at that temp. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 15:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr 14 14:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Fusion Engines
In-Reply-To: <20414.133330.3v1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020414213134.EB02127A53@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/14/02 at 01:33 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
said:

>> Also, isn't the p-p reaction the intended reaction for the 
>> Bussard ramjet?  I keep hearing that the p-p reaction is more 
>> difficult to start thant the D-T reaction.  And if we're 
>> going to make it so difficult, why not just use He-3?

>p-p requires higher temperatures and pressures. But the fuel is so
>much more abundant that if you can do it, it'd be *vastly* preferred.

>Not only is helium-3 hard to accumulate, it's harder to store. Liquid
>helium temps are something like two orders of magnitude harder to
>maintain than liquid hydrogen temps (temperature differences are
>logarithmic, not arithmetic. That is, what matters isn't the
>difference in degrees, but rather the *ratio* of the abosolute
>temperatures. So the difference between 4 K and 20 K is the "same" as
>the difference between 300 K (room temp) and 1500 K (halfway between
>the melting point of copper and that of iron))

My favorite, non-standard, fusion reaction is p-B(11). Boron-11 isn't
*all* that rare, and with the advanced plasma, magnetic and gravitic
controls of the TU it should be quite doable.  This reaction results
in almost no hard radiation, and electricity can be directly drawn off
the resultant charged particles.  

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help Needed
In-Reply-To: <B8B62CD4.2D26D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20414.140952.0s8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 3/14/02 9:16 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>>> get me one of those nifty adapter cards for that if I understand
>>> 'hot-swappable' correctly).
>> 
>> Mine isn't hot-swappable either.
>> 
>> Though I have to note that with IDE that's a tall order to start with.
>> With SCSI it's a bit easier.
>> 
>> The big problem is that the OS may not recognize the swap.
>
> If it's truly hot swappable, that means you are running some kind of RAID,
> too.  I remember seeing the shocked expression on the face of a brang new
> tech when I blithely yanked the drive out of out Resilient server. Just for
> yucks I pulled a processor too.  This while the machine was happily serving
> files, routing email and all that king of good stuff.

With some OSes you can swap a drive while the system is running, you
just have to do a "dismount" before pulling the drive and a "Mount"
after putting in a replacement.

When I finally get my Netware server upgraded I'll be doing that
occasionally with a tape drive or a scsi drive in a mobile rack.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:05:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:05:23 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204141304.EAT01775@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020415080419.A22995@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I keep hearing people say that the fuel is carried in the form of
> liquid water and converted at the last minute.

I think you keep hearing just *me* :)


>  This would seem to be inefficient, as a substantial portion of your
> tankage would not be usable fuel.

Tankage *mass*, yes.  However, water has 50% more hydrogen per unit
*volume* than does liquid hydrogen.  As an additional bonus, it is
*much* easier to store.  As a further bonus again, you can drink it,
and breathe the "waste" after refining.

Since ship operating costs are directly proportional to volume (not
mass), this works out much more efficient.  However, it will reduce
acceleration on full tanks somewhat.


>  Liquid methane (liquified natural gas) might be a bit better than
> water,

Except that it is harder to store, more hazardous, no use in life
support, less plentiful, and the waste (carbon) is much less useful.
The same applies to ammonia.  It turns out that the best figure for
hydrogen per unit volume (for common substances) is a highly
concentrated ammonia solution.  The waste product from the refining
process is an oxygen / nitrogen mix.  However it's much worse from a
handling point of view, and you can't just suck it up from oceans or
ice moonlets.


> Also, I have read several times in old Traveller works about 
> the "L-Hyd" tank (which seems to say "liquid hydrogen" and 
> not "water").

It does.

In my ship designs, ships still have a LHyd tank, because the jump
drives need a *lot* of pure hydrogen really fast when entering jump;
far more than a fuel refiner can deliver in such a short period of
time.  Canon is unfortunately unclear as to *how much* fuel used by
jump is consumed right at the start, and the subject is a recurring
"hot topic" (look up "drop tanks" or "Annic Nova" in the archives for
a sample).  IMTU, initiating jump requires about 1-5% of the ship's
volume in jump fuel, the same again on re-entry, with the rest
consumed slowly during jump.  The last can be delivered by refiners
from water tanks, and provides the crew with breathing air and
drinking water.


> There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were topping
> off with LNG or L-Hyd.

No -- there's nothing for it to burn with if you're fuelling at an
up-port dock, and even many planets have insufficient oxygen to
support a flame.  There would be a cryogenic hazard though,
particularly with LHyd.


> See what happened to the fuel tank on the shuttle when the 
> SRB played a flame on it.  One fuel hit in atmosphere and 
> WHAM.

That's because the shuttle contains huge amounts of cryogenic
propellant *and* oxidiser, in a convenient ready-to-mix form.


> One compartment or more could be filled with fuel if the ship is hit
> in certain ways.  Equipment and personnel in these areas would be
> instantly destroyed/killed by cryogenic liquid.

Yep -- cryogenic liquids are dangerous.  And of course a *minor*
internal hydrogen leak could cause a fire once you reintroduce oxygen.


> I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot 
> of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and 
> ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how 
> it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only 
> lose a small percentage of the fuel.

That's what I assume.  You don't want a big open tank of liquid in the
ship when you're doing 6g maneuvers and rapid rotations, either --
even liquids as light as LHyd have a *lot* of mass in large volumes.
So IMTU fuel tankage is heavily compartmentalised even on small ships.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:05:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:05:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Terran/Vilani conflict (Was: Deadliness of combat)
In-Reply-To: <3CB9CF94.4CB5EF74@mindspring.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204140512410.32235-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020414145753.009e8ae0@mindspring.com>

At 02:51 PM 4/14/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>
>Forbidden Canon.
>???!

Stuff published by Digest Group.  I'm not getting into that mud patch 
again, but suffice it to say that the owner of the copyright wants a 
ridiculous amount of money for it, and as a result, those of us writing for 
Traveller have to avoid things that appeared solely in DGP books and magazines.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 16:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 15:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEACDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020415081233.B22995@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> And the tidal forces are 
> a/l = G*M /r^3

If we use T for tide and rho for density, then a spherical body
induces a tidal stretching of
 T = 2 G rho (r/R)^3.

This more clearly shows that for a body of given density, the tidal
strength depends only on the ratio of diameter to distance.


> I suspect that you'll find that the forces involved at 100 diameters
> from Earth are similar to those at the hull of a fairly small ship.

So the size of the ship is irrelevant -- what matters is its density.
Suffice it to say that every ship in Traveller has amply more than
enough density to give a higher tidal force at 1 diameter than Earth
does at 10 diameters, let alone 100D.

Apparently only ships larger than 1km will actually precipitate other
ships out from jump, but I suspect ships entering jump should indeed
use the normal misjump rules for proximity to any other body
comparable in size to their own.  (You don't want a speck of dust to
cause a misjump :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-lethal weapons in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1016132100.8505.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20414.163834.3i9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>> 
>> And my "sodium grenades" will tend to seal the edges of the plastic to
>> the helmet.
>
> If you can reliably spray enough sodium to cause a problem, you can also
> probably hit them with a comparable amount of high explosive and kill them
> outright.

In a vacuum, you don't have to "spray". The atoms essentially travel in
straight lines from the dispenser until they hit something. At which
point they stop. 

It doesn't take a very thick coating (a few atoms thick) to make it
hard to so, and hard for the cooling system on your space suit to get
rid of the heat you are building up.

In a vacuum, high eplosives are much less effective, because they don't
have air to conduct the shock. All they have to ork with is the gases
they produce themselves. And a blast strong enough to cause trouble is
strong enough to damage gear in the compartment. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:26:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:26:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
References: <20020414132903.D582627B44@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c1e414$9dbef1a0$bdb18b90@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
> closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
> travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
> builds until it collapses the wormholes.

No surprises there.  And of course, since the possibility to use them for
FTL implies the possibility of using them for time travel, you can't use
them for FTL, etc.

Fortunately, we are dealing with science fiction, not real life, so this
analysis is hereby declared to be incomplete.  This also explains why "FTL
radio" isn't possible.  Oh, and traversing wormholes takes about 170 hours
or so, too.  : )

Incidentally, Yaskoydray definitely could have time travel.  Creating pocket
universes implies being able to do really, really interesting things to
space-time.  In fact, it might be possible to travel from the MT/TNE
universe to the GT one.  IMTU, Avery did!  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
Message-ID: <200204150043.RAA22864@molly.iii.com>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:

>From: Leonard Erickson
>> It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
>> closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
>> travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
>> builds until it collapses the wormholes.
>
>No surprises there.  And of course, since the possibility to use them for
>FTL implies the possibility of using them for time travel, you can't use
>them for FTL, etc.

Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.

In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
wormholes have to share a reference frame.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEAIDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
> and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
> (assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
> todal forces are the same.

(Tries it in Excel - ) Neat trick - hadn't seen this before - though I
suspect it only works because I used a  uniform density, and since that
won't be the case in the "real" (read:more random/realistic simulation of
the) universe, then using tidal forces as a basis for misjumps will vary the
rule either side of 100 diameters - for example, raise the density, and the
100 diameter limit drops to ninety something diameters.

But it doesn't really matter what causes the misjump effect. The fact
remains that a given mass will cause some form of gravitational effect that
invokes a misjump, and when you build a starship of that mass it should be
affected by its own gravitational effect - and hence misjump.

The maths/details don't really matter here - the concept is the thing. There
should be an upper limit of some kind on starship size imposed by the
misjump rule.

Andy B.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.346 / Virus Database: 194 - Release Date: 10/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun Apr 14 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com>

"Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com> writes:

>But it doesn't really matter what causes the misjump effect. The fact
>remains that a given mass will cause some form of gravitational effect that
>invokes a misjump, and when you build a starship of that mass it should be
>affected by its own gravitational effect - and hence misjump.

Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external fields.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Sun Apr 14 18:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
> trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
> to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external fields.

Or, that misjumps are poorly thought out.

They don't work if you use g, the gravitational field acceleration because
it varies so much.
They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
themselves.

So, has anyone got a better explanation of why 100 diameters, 10 diameters
etc are so very bad ?

Andy B


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.346 / Virus Database: 194 - Release Date: 10/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 19:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 18:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020415114537.A23557@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Brick wrote:
> They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
> themselves.

Isn't that what the jump grid is for; making sure that everything
contained within it is properly prepared for jump?  I would not be at
all surprised if part of the function of the grid was to cancel the
gravity due to the mass of the ship.  Gravity from external objects
can't be cancelled because you don't have a grid surrounding them.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 19:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Apr 14 18:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Ortillery
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEHDCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Ortillery?
>
>I saw it in Dirtside, a game to go with Full Thrust.
>
>But I may have seen it in an SF novel before.

I think it's in Hammer's Slammers, by David Drake -- but it may even have
appeared in Gordon Dickson's Dorsai books.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 20:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sun Apr 14 19:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] MRIs magnetizing firearms to the point of malfunction?
References: <DAV62kgjvWo5whUlmsQ0001a893@hotmail.com> <20020414114830.26705bd4.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <DAV40aODv8h1ccBHuGI0000737d@hotmail.com>

> How would this kind of problem affect gauss/railgun type weapons?

<shrug>  Some earlier gauss weapon discussion seemed to indicate that GWs
would have to be pretty heavily shielded.  So maybe nothing.


> Not that any PCs would try bringing any of them through security, mind
> you...

Good heavens, no! <g>

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Sun Apr 14 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <3CB86743.61E3C359@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020413200302.009ee460@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CBA3FFD.3090802@yarranet.net.au>

Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll 
never get my Tigress at this rate.


Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 20:55:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Apr 14 19:55:06 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEHDCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Also, I'm wondering what happens if the fuel tanks adjoin
>crew spaces, as they do in so many deck plans.  Let's say you
>depressurize before combat, and close bulkhead doors.  One
[deletion]
>I'm also curious about fuel hits in HG.  Unless there's a lot
>of compartmentalization (along with a lot of valves and
>ports) within the interior of the fuel tanks, I don't see how
>it's possible to get a weapon hit on the fuel tank and only
>lose a small percentage of the fuel.  On large ships, sure -

I usually design deck plans with a fuel envelope around the ship.  That
accounts for the large number of fuel hits in High Guard.  I assume that the
fuel tank is divided into ten compartments of equal volume, so that each
fuel hit blows a hole in one or more compartments.

If you get both internal explosion and fuel hit results, the problem you
describe may occur.  In a High Guard fleet action, I wouldn't worry about
it, but I will take your suggestion to heart in the case of combat involving
a ship with the PCs, or a ship that they encounter.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 21:13:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Apr 14 20:13:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134634.3h0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEAADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
 <20414.134634.3h0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020415031235.2864d227.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> *Everything* generates its own gravity field. 
> 
> So ships have to correct for self gravity (and possibily for their
> internal gravity fields as well) anyway. A planet-ship would just have
> to make bigger corrections.

Semi-scientifical handwave follows:

The jump grid acts in a manner similiar to an electrical potential cage
(kind of like grounding the ship to a known neutral potential). Thus, the
ship itself doesn't disturb the jump drive's operation. Other objects,
however, aren't grounded in this fashion, and do disturb it, causing
misjumps etc.

Think of the disturbance as a lightning bolt hitting a metal cage (but
from the inside of the cage/ship). The discharge travels along the cage
(jump grid), but doesn't pass through it.

Comments?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 21:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr 14 20:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CBA3FFD.3090802@yarranet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20020415032922.5193B27A6E@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:

>Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll 
>never get my Tigress at this rate.

Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
level) per month!  <g>


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 22:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Apr 14 21:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>

On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 02:06:05 +0100, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
wrote:

>> Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
>> trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
>> to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external =
fields.
>
>Or, that misjumps are poorly thought out.
>
>They don't work if you use g, the gravitational field acceleration =
because
>it varies so much.
>They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
>themselves.
><SNIP>

Are you certain that traditional Traveller ships will create a tidal
force equivalent to a planet at 10 or even 100 diameters?  I was under
the impression that their mass wasn't sufficient to generate that
level of tidal force.  Further, I wouldn't think a body could exert
tidal force upon itself.

I would welcome anyone doing the math to demonstrate where the tidal
force associated with a planet's 10 diameter or 100 diameter limit
would fall for 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000 ton ships.
If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force upon
itself (and I do doubt that greatly), do these tidal gradients fall
outside a thus displacement sphere (the minimum surface area)?

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 22:26:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 14 21:26:09 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415032922.5193B27A6E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/14/02 8:29 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

> On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:
> 
>> Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll
>> never get my Tigress at this rate.
> 
> Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
> level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
> low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
> level) per month!  <g>

Which makes a steward a well paid individual indeed.  That's about
$140,160/year in adjusted dollars.  The Pilot is raking in about 210 grand a
year in 2002 US dollars.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 23:04:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 22:04:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> I would welcome anyone doing the math to demonstrate where the tidal
> force associated with a planet's 10 diameter or 100 diameter limit
> would fall for 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000 ton ships.

I'll assume that the 100D limit corresponds to a tidal tension
of 4e-13 s^-2, and hence that the 10D gradient is 4e-10 s^-2.

Let us suppose that each ship is spherical with an average density of
500 kg/m^3 (i.e. about 7 tonnes/dton).

Displacement  Diameter  Mass    10D limit  100D limit
(dtons)       (m)       (Mg)    (m)        (m)
100           13.8      685     61.1       611
1000          29.7      6850    131.7      1317
10000         64.0      68500   283.8      2838
100000        138       685000  611.4      6114

As you can see, the hull surface is far inside the 10D limit.

The formulae are pretty simple: mass = density * volume,
volume = pi D^3 / 6  for a sphere,
T = 2 G M / R^3.


> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force
> upon itself

You are.  This is very important in determining Roche's limit, for
example.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 23:15:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Apr 14 22:15:12 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/14/02 at 09:24 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 4/14/02 8:29 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

>> On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:
>> 
>>> Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll
>>> never get my Tigress at this rate.
>> 
>> Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
>> level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
>> low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
>> level) per month!  <g>

>Which makes a steward a well paid individual indeed.  That's about
>$140,160/year in adjusted dollars.  The Pilot is raking in about 210
>grand a year in 2002 US dollars.

Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
OTU games.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 14 23:49:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 14 22:49:11 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
> OTU games.

You don't think it makes sense that people from highly technologically
advanced societies are richer than modern-day Earthlings?  Especially
starship crew, who have to live in cramped conditions in a hostile
environment for weeks at a time?

Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
than bus drivers.  And people in the US generally get paid a lot more
than people in most other countries for comparable occupations.  So to
my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from high-tech
societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20414.230338.5J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 02:06:05 +0100, "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> Actually, mathematically all starships create a field strong enough to
>>> trigger a misjump.  This implies mostly that there's a way for a ship
>>> to deal with its own gravitational field, the problem is external =
> fields.
>>
>>Or, that misjumps are poorly thought out.
>>
>>They don't work if you use g, the gravitational field acceleration =
> because
>>it varies so much.
>>They don't work if you use tidal forces because starships would misjump
>>themselves.
>><SNIP>
>
> Are you certain that traditional Traveller ships will create a tidal
> force equivalent to a planet at 10 or even 100 diameters?  I was under
> the impression that their mass wasn't sufficient to generate that
> level of tidal force.  Further, I wouldn't think a body could exert
> tidal force upon itself.

No, but tidal force is a (effectively) a measure of how severely space
is curved. 

Acceleration due to gravity is the "slope" of the gravity well. Tidal
forces are the rate at which the slop changes.

> I would welcome anyone doing the math to demonstrate where the tidal
> force associated with a planet's 10 diameter or 100 diameter limit
> would fall for 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000 ton ships.
> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force upon
> itself (and I do doubt that greatly), do these tidal gradients fall
> outside a thus displacement sphere (the minimum surface area)?

The problem is that we need to know the *mass* of the ship, not the
displacement. A "100 ton" ship occupies the same *volume* as 100 tons
of liquid hydrogen. It may mass more or less.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:15:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:15:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEAIDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20414.225006.1X5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>> and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>> (assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>> todal forces are the same.
>
> (Tries it in Excel - ) Neat trick - hadn't seen this before - though I
> suspect it only works because I used a  uniform density, and since that
> won't be the case in the "real" (read:more random/realistic simulation of
> the) universe, then using tidal forces as a basis for misjumps will vary the
> rule either side of 100 diameters - for example, raise the density, and the
> 100 diameter limit drops to ninety something diameters.

Thing is, the density of "rocky" planets (as opposed to gas giants and
the iceballs you find in the outer system) is pretty uniform. 

And for gas giants and iceballs the "critical" tidal force level would
occur well *within* 100 diameters. 

So if there's any sort of safety factor built in to the "100 diameter"
rule, it'll work fine except in *really* oddball situations (say trying
to jump close to a *big* nickel-iron asteroid).

> But it doesn't really matter what causes the misjump effect. The fact
> remains that a given mass will cause some form of gravitational effect that
> invokes a misjump, and when you build a starship of that mass it should be
> affected by its own gravitational effect - and hence misjump.
>
> The maths/details don't really matter here - the concept is the thing. There
> should be an upper limit of some kind on starship size imposed by the
> misjump rule.

The details *do* matter, because the forces at the *hull* of even a
small ship will *exceed* those from a planet at 100 diameters. That's a
*unavoidable*. 

So a ship *has* to be able to compensate for the forces generated by
its own mass.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:15:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:15:55 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020415080419.A22995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20414.231128.0e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>  Liquid methane (liquified natural gas) might be a bit better than
>> water,
>
> Except that it is harder to store, more hazardous, no use in life
> support, less plentiful, and the waste (carbon) is much less useful.
> The same applies to ammonia.  It turns out that the best figure for
> hydrogen per unit volume (for common substances) is a highly
> concentrated ammonia solution.  The waste product from the refining
> process is an oxygen / nitrogen mix.  However it's much worse from a
> handling point of view, and you can't just suck it up from oceans or
> ice moonlets.

Actually, if you are out at the distance of saturn or farther, that
"ice" is apt to be a mix of ammonia, methane and water.

>> There would also be an explosion and fire hazard if you were topping
>> off with LNG or L-Hyd.
>
> No -- there's nothing for it to burn with if you're fuelling at an
> up-port dock, and even many planets have insufficient oxygen to
> support a flame.  There would be a cryogenic hazard though,
> particularly with LHyd.

Well, liquid hydrogen doesn't respond well to large inputs of energy
either. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:16:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:16:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <004d01c1e414$9dbef1a0$bdb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <20414.231508.7E7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: Leonard Erickson
>> It turns out that as soon as a wormhole (or network of them) contains a
>> closed timelike curve (ie as soon as it's possible to use them for time
>> travel) you get an infinite feedback loop of virtual particles that
>> builds until it collapses the wormholes.
>
> No surprises there.  And of course, since the possibility to use them for
> FTL implies the possibility of using them for time travel, you can't use
> them for FTL, etc.

Not necessarily. 

There are lots of FTL trips you can take without having actually
transfer of things or information into someone's past. 

You just have to be careful. And it does make it easy to shut down a
wormhole (or a series of them) if you are desperate.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 01:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 00:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20414.231128.0e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415080419.A22995@freeman.little-possums.net> <20414.231128.0e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020415175248.A24097@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, if you are out at the distance of saturn or farther, that
> "ice" is apt to be a mix of ammonia, methane and water.

Yes, quite true.  Water is more prevalent further in, which I would
guess is where ships are more likely to want to go.  Most spacecraft
in my Traveller universe don't scoop gas giants for hydrogen unless
really desperate; they either slurp it up from oceans or grab it from
icy moons or other bodies.  Sometimes that means throwing away excess
methane and ammonia because they don't have appropriate type of
tankage to hold it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 07:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon Apr 15 06:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CBAD3C8.FEAB4008@attbi.com>


Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
> than bus drivers.  

Um, no they don't. Maybe half if the drivers aren't unionized.

> And people in the US generally get paid a lot more
> than people in most other countries for comparable occupations.  

Oh so true, even more so here in the Peoples Republic of California.

> So to
> my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from high-tech
> societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.

Yah, but like most Mariners today most of that wage comes from
overtime.

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he 
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, 
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 08:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Apr 15 07:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226C0@USCHM203>

Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term =
>"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
>  =20
> The origin is bugging me....

It definitely goes back to at least the mid to late 80s. I thought that I
might have first seen it in "Striker", which would be around 1981 or so, but
I could be mistaken. As someone else mentioned, the term might have appeared
in a sci-fi novel even earlier.

Brian L. Hurrel
ICS Analyst
EDS
(973) 682-5578


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <3CBAD3C8.FEAB4008@attbi.com>; from wmacdude@attbi.com on Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 06:21:12AM -0700
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net> <3CBAD3C8.FEAB4008@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20020415092359.A9480@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 06:21:12AM -0700, Evyn MacDude wrote:
> 
> > Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
> > than bus drivers.  

In Denver a driver starts at $12.xx and hour--let's say $13.  They
probably work less than 8 hours a day, but let's say they do.  That's
$104/day, or $540/wk.  Assuming two unpaid weeks of vacation a year,
that's $26,000/yr.  What's the starting rate for a submariner?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism
to decadence without touching civilization.               --John O'Hara

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <B8DFA3F2.3A4B7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020415051356.2825827A53@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <001e01c1e492$a431a680$1f9e15ac@warrior>

Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for those kinds of
speciallized skills... I mean how much does a Airliner pilot make now
days...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Little" <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 1:47 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?


> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> > Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
> > OTU games.
>
> You don't think it makes sense that people from highly technologically
> advanced societies are richer than modern-day Earthlings?  Especially
> starship crew, who have to live in cramped conditions in a hostile
> environment for weeks at a time?
>
> Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot more
> than bus drivers.  And people in the US generally get paid a lot more
> than people in most other countries for comparable occupations.  So to
> my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from high-tech
> societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.
>
>
> - Tim
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:43:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:43:06 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415092359.A9480@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEIJDKAA.tml@downport.com>

Or how about: what is the full-package cost for an experienced, commercial
submarine officer?

Hmm...

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Robert A. Uhl

In Denver a driver starts at $12.xx and hour--let's say $13.  They
probably work less than 8 hours a day, but let's say they do.  That's
$104/day, or $540/wk.  Assuming two unpaid weeks of vacation a year,
that's $26,000/yr.  What's the starting rate for a submariner?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 09:43:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:43:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

Maybe I'm just too scientifically dumb to follow the
conversation and am therefore saying the same thing
that has already been said, but...

Doesn't a starship (or Jump enabled planet for that
matter) exert gravity inward to it's center?  Isn't
that a different force than the planet or ship or GG
or Star that is closer than 100D?

I always thought the 100D gravity (or whatever) limit
as being more of a sheering force on the Jumping
vessel.  The vessels internal gravity (or whatever)
just isn't sheering on itself.

I'm not all that scientific in these areas, so I may
be wrong or completely invalid, but that is my
handwave. :)

Paul


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 10:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Mon Apr 15 09:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <F209D689cMhtTYDGGfA000197d5@hotmail.com>

One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
than they pay out in claims.

If you are a large enough organization, like a Mega-Corp,
then your insurable losses from any particular event should
be low enough (as a percentage of your total income) that it
will be a better option for you to absorb the losses as they
occur rather than continuously pay out insurance premiums.
You'll "self-insure", by keeping cash on hand enough to cover emergencies 
and accidents.  This is a good way for a large
enough company to do business, since this "cash on hand",
while it's on hand, can be earning for the company while
insurance premiums are gone.

If a catastrophe happens that destroys more value of your
megacorp assets than you would have been paying out in
insurance premiums, then chances are a war caused it - and
insurance companies are noted for not paying out claims
on damage caused by acts of war anyway.

So, you'll have two tiers of starship out there.  The
small or independent operator, who buys insurance (since a
single event will likely put him out of business otherwise).
The large corp, which may self-insure (that is, put money
aside to cover replacement, rather than pay out premiums).

If most of a starport's traffic is megacorp vessels,
then that starport won't have the insurance industry
involved as much with starport safety requirements.
The megacorp may have to post a bond of some sort, but
this bond may be a trivial formality if the megacorp
is in bed with the local starport authority...which they
probably will be, the megacorp likely built the bed,
washed the linens and hired the nubile young bedwarmers.

The small independent operator may have to post a bond
of sorts to gain access to a starport as well.  This bond
may well be posted by the independent operator's insurance
carrier on behalf of all the carrier's clients, with the
insurance carrier requiring operators to meet certain
safety guidelines to get coverage and access to the bond.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 10:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon Apr 15 09:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
Message-ID: <OF79538278.A1B0E48C-ON85256B9C.005AE8D9@pheaa.org>

has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a line at
wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.

thanks

Bill


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 10:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 09:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
Message-ID: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Here I go again. Please don't kill me  :-)

Right now I'm adding population generation to my script.

Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake  ;-)

"That's no moon"

I could see people turning a small moon into swiss cheese and living in
it, but at that point it will cease to be a moon and begin to be a space
station built using an asteroid hull.

Are there any good reasons not to use asteroids or small moons as hulls
for space stations? It would be a lot cheaper, and easier to expand (to a
certain limit). Just dig a few more tunnels.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204151701.ECX05851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Christopher Pratt says
>
>Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for 
>those kinds of speciallized skills... I mean how much does a 
>Airliner pilot make now days...
>
It's not as though a pilot today has to know as much as they 
used to.  Celestial navigation? LORAN? Dead reckoning? Nope.  
If you can use a GPS and know how to use the flight computer, 
it's just not as difficult as it used to be.  In fact, 
there's a lot to the handling of current aircraft that is 
done by the computer. It "helps" you, and you don't even 
notice that it's doing so.

Mostly, pilots are there to try and land the plane if 
something goes wrong.  There is little technical reason at 
this point why we could not design pilotless aircraft - in 
fact, there are compelling safety reasons to do so.  There 
are some FAA people I talked to who say that sometime in the 
next 20 years, they are going to try and fully automate 
everything from takeoff to landing (some aircraft are already 
capable of this).  At that point, it is questionable what you 
would need a pilot for.  He would be a glorified bus driver.

ObTrav:  What is a pilot, anyway?  Doesn't a pilot largely 
perform naviagational tasks?  In movies, yeah, fighter pilot 
city - just like WW II (image of Leia pointing and 
saying "star destroyer" -- good thing we spent all that money 
on radar when she can just point out the window).  But IMTU - 
well, there's an ability to takeoff and land, but in major 
starports, that could be automated.  Docking maneuvers?  Once 
again, probably safer if automated.  A pilot is -- really a 
coordinator -- making all of the ship's systems work 
together, and making decisions about where to go and how.

Like a navigator, with wings.
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018890322.7515.ajackson@ping>

Jens Rydholm writes:
> Here I go again. Please don't kill me  :-)
> 
> Right now I'm adding population generation to my script.
> 
> Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
> than 100 miles to have a population?

Well, in habitats sure.  Thermal effects put a practical limit of around a
million people times diameter squared (and the moon will glow in infrared), 
but that's not terribly limiting.

> Are there any good reasons not to use asteroids or small moons as hulls
> for space stations? It would be a lot cheaper, and easier to expand (to a
> certain limit). Just dig a few more tunnels.

Well, you want a solid asteroid as opposed to a gravel pile, but given that
traveller has gravetics for artificial gravity, it's practical enough.  Doubt
that the cost differences would be huge, however.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <F68hRaUMNGCXWGmQyt500005973@hotmail.com>

From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>

     "In Denver a driver starts at $12.xx and hour--let's say $13.  They
probably work less than 8 hours a day, but let's say they do.  That's
$104/day, or $540/wk.  Assuming two unpaid weeks of vacation a year,
that's $26,000/yr.  What's the starting rate for a submariner?"


Mr. Uhl,

     Good point, and let's not forget benefits.  Most employers who  don't 
provide benefits tend to pay slightly higher salaries.  Please note, I'm 
talking about skilled positions in this context and not minimum wage 
Wal-Mart meat puppets.
     Give Mr. Kramden above a family medical policy, a dental plan, life 
insurance, and employer contributions to a 401(K) and/or pension plan, and 
his "earnings" increase by another $10,000/yr or so.
     The "March Harrier" and her ilk are not going to provide any of these 
"bennies" at all.  In order to compete in the same labor market as the 
mega-corps, smaller outfits will offer slightly higher salaries.
     The Wal-Marts of the future will still have the upper hand when it 
comes to hiring floor moppers however.(If we still waste human labor on such 
tasks that is.)  Just like today, Wal-Mart's inclusion of benefits in their 
compensation package will keep their supply of min-wage types bountiful as 
opposed to the corner "Quik-E-Mart."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <F55WYIgoFT3kMUVfNIJ0000272d@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>Mostly, pilots are there to try and land the plane if
>something goes wrong.  There is little technical reason at
>this point why we could not design pilotless aircraft - in
>fact, there are compelling safety reasons to do so.  There
>are some FAA people I talked to who say that sometime in the
>next 20 years, they are going to try and fully automate
>everything from takeoff to landing (some aircraft are already
>capable of this).  At that point, it is questionable what you
>would need a pilot for.  He would be a glorified bus driver.

I have read where the F-22 is described as the Air Force's "last" manned 
fighter.

Also, apparently the thing that replaced the SR71 is not manned.

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 11:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 10:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204151758.ECZ05255@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Sam D" says
>
>I have read where the F-22 is described as the Air 
>Force's "last" manned fighter.
>
>Also, apparently the thing that replaced the SR71 is not 
>manned.
>

In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your 
starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local 
stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au> <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>

Si wrote:

> Any update on T20?
>
> Does anyone know when we are likely to see the 'offending' article ?
>
> Si
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

oops,

I sincerely apologise to everyone involved in the T20 project.  My
forgetting to include a 'smiley' totally changed the emphasis of the
message and made it seem negative.  IT WAS NOT MEANT TO BE, as I am
really looking forward to T20.  for those of you who are not aware of
the Open Gaming licence, using the d20 system means that everything is
(to a significant degree) interchangeable.  This means that (with only a
little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.

:-)

Si




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <F209D689cMhtTYDGGfA000197d5@hotmail.com>
References: <F209D689cMhtTYDGGfA000197d5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020415201231.2a376fbc.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Walt Smith wrote:
> One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
> only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
> than they pay out in claims.
<snip>

A very nice post indeed. I don't really have anything to add, but I'll
just note that the post didn't disappear in the dreaded black hole of
quality. It was archived on my harddrive  :-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
In-Reply-To: <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
 <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net> <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <20020415201431.3145d14b.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Si wrote:
> little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
> them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
> terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.

Kind of like GURPS  ;-)

I am also just kidding. I probably won't purchase the main T20 book, but
one can never have too much background material  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
Message-ID: <OF66D276C9.2DAD1A83-ON85256B9C.006477EE@pheaa.org>





<snip>
> little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
> them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
> terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.
</snip>

Im really looking forward to this. i got an order in at my FLGS already 8)

Bill






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
Message-ID: <200204151824.EDB00561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm just hoping for a better skill resolution system (hoping 
for a better combat system may be a forlorn one).
________________
"Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <200204151824.EDB00561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB1C87.D6550A25@virgin.net>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> I'm just hoping for a better skill resolution system (hoping
> for a better combat system may be a forlorn one).
> ________________
> "Join the Enclave and See the Universe"
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

The skill systems should be (AFAIK) similar to that of 3e.  Namely a
skill modifier is equal to the number of ranks you have bought in a
skill plus a modifier based upon the skills determining characteristic.

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An interesting product - anything like this in Traveller?
References: <200204141322.EAV00067@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB1D32.5000002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> In any ship or vehicle design sequence, is there anything 
> like this?  It seems to be an internal add-on that reduces 
> the potential for internal explosions.
> 
> http://www.blastgard.net/outlook.asp

This is probably part of the composite hull material, which does start 
to appear at TL8-9...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 12:35:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr 15 11:35:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Insurance - Was: How hard is it to steal a
 starship?
In-Reply-To: <DAV14LEGhUOjO0L6WkQ00004c57@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020411151634.0209ac08@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020415142902.020c6250@mail.qrc.com>

At 09:40 AM 4/13/2002, Texas Redshift wrote:
>After scrying using the Orb of Google, it appears that we may both mean the
>Law of Finds rather than salvage.

Probably; I'm not a lawyer (and only occasionally play one on the Internet).

>In many cases, this compensation is such that simply giving the salvor 
>salvaged property is the best way to straighten things out.

And as a gaming rule of thumb, it'll certainly do.

>Note also that special cases seem to apply to historical shipwrecks and
>military vessels.

Yes; IMTU I'd make the call that military shipwrecks remain Imperial 
property (and thus might be salvaged by the Imperium or it's agents and 
contractors, but not by private groups), and historical wrecks (including 
war graves, memorials, etc.) can be so designated by a proclamation from 
the appropriate nobility.

Thanks for the links!

   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 12:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS An Army marches on its stomach
References: <20413.120658.7M5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB24B3.8020600@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Well, back in the late 60s/early 70s, I used to grab the Air Force
> equivalent ("in flight meal packs") at the commissary to take on Boy
> Scout camping trips. Basicly, we used them for dinner on Friday night
> when we were tired after setting up camp, and didn't feel much like
> putting a lot of effort into cooking. 

My roommate used to get those by the case at the PX, most of them 
weren't bad by starving college student, top ramen and tuna surprise 
standards.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Backwater areas in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <3C90ACCA.20039.9DF165@localhost>
Message-ID: <20415.121345.7z0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 13 Mar 2002 at 14:47, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > Another option might be hypervelocity rockets with a penetrator.
>> > Something the size of a LAW or AT-4 that accelerates up to 2000+
>> > meters per second in the tube and with a DU penetrator. 
>> 
>> Eek! Do you have any idea what sort of rocket motor you are talking
>> about here? 
>> 
>> Work out the acceleration required, just for starters. 
>> 
>> The backblast will be nasty, and a cracked fuel grain will take out the
>> person firing the rocket.
>
> The NZ Air Force used to (when we still had a strike wing) use Canadian 
> 120mm rockets that had a tungsten carbide penetrator like a tank gun 
> round as their warhead. IIRC they have a similar velocity to that of a 
> tank gun and, as the body stayed attached, more mass. We used them for 
> anti-shipping and they'd no nasty things to a frigate from barely on 
> the horizon. I think the SOP was to fly in at 10,000 feet until the 
> ship appeared over the horizon, fire, then dive back under the horizon 
> before the SAMs got to you.
>
> Therefore the basic idea is feasible at TL7-8, it's just a matter of 
> getting the thing small enough for a man to carry. As for fuel grain 
> cracks - thet's an issue with any rocket or missile, so why make an 
> issue of it for this one? The (likely) higher internal pressure?

A blast that will "inconvenience" a jet fighter will make hamburger out
of an infantryman. And ordnance attached to aircraft gets handled a
*lot* more gently than anything a soldier is packing around in combat.

Also, as noted elsewhere, I can just about guarantee that the
antishipping missile *didn't* reach full velocity in less than 100
meters, much less less than *2* meters.

The big objection is to the missile reaching full velocity by the time
it exits the launch tube. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:01:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:01:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20415.122550.9R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Maybe I'm just too scientifically dumb to follow the
> conversation and am therefore saying the same thing
> that has already been said, but...
>
> Doesn't a starship (or Jump enabled planet for that
> matter) exert gravity inward to it's center?  Isn't
> that a different force than the planet or ship or GG
> or Star that is closer than 100D?

Nope. Or at least not in a simple manner.

The gravitational forces inside a hollow sphere *cancel*. For other
shapes, you need a lot of calculus to figure what sort of forces you get.

Inside a solid sphere, of uniform density, you get the interesting
result that the force of gravity is a *maximum* at the surface and
drops *linearly* to zero at the center.

For one of varying density, where the density varies in spherical
"layers", it's a bit weirder, but you can figure it out by just taking
the mass of the solid sphere that's closer to the center than you are.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:01:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:01:56 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020415175248.A24097@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20415.124737.8e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Actually, if you are out at the distance of saturn or farther, that
>> "ice" is apt to be a mix of ammonia, methane and water.
>
> Yes, quite true.  Water is more prevalent further in, which I would
> guess is where ships are more likely to want to go.  Most spacecraft
> in my Traveller universe don't scoop gas giants for hydrogen unless
> really desperate; they either slurp it up from oceans or grab it from
> icy moons or other bodies.  Sometimes that means throwing away excess
> methane and ammonia because they don't have appropriate type of
> tankage to hold it.

If you aren't scooping from a gas giant, you don't *need* tankage.
Except for a rather small amount to hold stuff that you are feeding
thru the systems that "crack" the hydrogen out of them.

Both methane and ammonia will burn with oxygen. So you crack some water
(thermally or via electrolysis) and use the oxygen to burn the methane
and ammonia to N2, H20 & CO2. You condense the H20 and crack it to get
back the oxygen. The CO2 and N2 get either discrard or fed into the
life support system's atomosphere reprocessing section. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:02:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:02:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Here I go again. Please don't kill me  :-)
>
> Right now I'm adding population generation to my script.
>
> Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
> than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
> become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
> of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake  ;-)
>
> "That's no moon"
>
> I could see people turning a small moon into swiss cheese and living in
> it, but at that point it will cease to be a moon and begin to be a space
> station built using an asteroid hull.

Okay that six mile (I assume diameter, if it's radius, multiply all
areas below by 4) rockball has a surface area of just over 3 billion
square feet. Equivalent to a square 10.6 miles on a side. That's a
*lot* bigger than Manhattan.

Which gives each of those 10,000 people roughly 315,000 square feet. Or
an area about 560 feet square.  That's a couple of city blocks!

Say it's 50,000. That reduces things to 63,000 squae feet apiece. An
area only 250 feet square.

Allow burrowing only a few hundred feet into the surface, and the
amount of space gets positively *obscene*. And it's still a moon or
asteroid, not a station with an asteroid hull.

Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
buildings and the like.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 15 13:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
Message-ID: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>

--part1_a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
> than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
> become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
> of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake  ;-)

I would say that isn't really a problem, for reasons that others have gone
into in plenty of detail.

One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of rock in 
a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons of inhabited 
planets,
a few large bodies in any given planetoid belt, maybe.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Is it plausible to allow moons (ie the category of small moons) of less
<BR>&gt; than 100 miles to have a population? In any case, the rules as written
<BR>&gt; become broken if used for such moons. I have a six mile rockball with tens
<BR>&gt; of thousands of people here, for Grandfather's sake &nbsp;;-)
<BR>
<BR>I would say that isn't really a problem, for reasons that others have gone
<BR>into in plenty of detail.
<BR>
<BR>One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of rock in 
<BR>a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons of inhabited planets,
<BR>a few large bodies in any given planetoid belt, maybe.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020415190106.CE88227B71@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB4144.FF9D2823@earthlink.net>

John T. Kwon
> 
> 
> In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?

Yes. It's called "TL17". TL14 for those playing GT.

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <200204151758.ECZ05255@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E09124.3A634%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?

Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right when the user no
longer understands what's going on behind the 'curtain'.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20414.134815.8u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8e0f93f2f0d@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>todal forces are the same.

A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the 
size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity 
in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal 
gradient.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 15:46:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:46:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020415154254.54501.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020416074539.A25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
> I always thought the 100D gravity (or whatever) limit as being more
> of a sheering force on the Jumping vessel.  The vessels internal
> gravity (or whatever) just isn't sheering on itself.

Well, gravitational fields in empty space exert a combination of
stretching and compressional tides, not shearing.  Once you look at
the field *inside* some point of a body, it is a sum of the
compressional/stretching due to external fields, with a pure
compressional tide due to local density.

The simplest case is the interior of a sphere of uniform density.  In
that case, *every* point within the sphere has an isotropic and
homogeneous compression tide.  The strength is independent of location
within the sphere, and also independent of the size of the sphere.
(The mechanical pressure does vary with position and size however)

Grossly non-uniform and asymmetric bodies like starships have tidal
gradients that are horribly 'lumpy' throughout and difficult to plug
into an equation :/  You can still do the maths, but you need a
computer to actually add up all the numbers.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>
References: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020416080223.B25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of
> rock in a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons
> of inhabited planets, a few large bodies in any given planetoid
> belt, maybe.

I might go that far in a setting where a spacefaring civilization had
been confined to a single star system for *ages*.  Like the Moties,
for example.  The Imperium has too much room to move, and too low a
population for a 10km cometary body in the inner Oort cloud to look in
the least attractive as a home if there are any alternatives.

But I'd get a computer to do the actual number-crunching, and get
statistical features rather than individual figures.  Just things like
the probability that a given body of certain diameter, location, and
composition is inhabited, and by how many if so.  e.g. "1.3 trillion
living in asteroids of 5 km diameter or less in the inner belt", that
sort of thing.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20415.124737.8e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415175248.A24097@freeman.little-possums.net> <20415.124737.8e6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020416081241.C25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Both methane and ammonia will burn with oxygen. So you crack some water
> (thermally or via electrolysis) and use the oxygen to burn the methane
> and ammonia to N2, H20 & CO2. You condense the H20 and crack it to get
> back the oxygen. The CO2 and N2 get either discrard or fed into the
> life support system's atomosphere reprocessing section. 

I don't see what I get from this.

IMTU, there is only a small tank capable of holding LHyd with all the
associated cryogenic systems, ultralow temperature pumps and such
expensive stuff.  It primarily feeds the jump drive when entering
jump.  The rest of the fuel space is designed to hold water which I
can slowly refine using a fuel processor during jump.

So the limit on how much fuel I can hold is how much oxygen is
available to bind the hydrogen into water for my large (and cheap)
tanks.  Discarding CO2 from burning methane is hence worse than just
throwing away the methane.  I might extract some nitrogen from the
ammonia to replenish any atmosphere losses, but that's about it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020416082357.D25846@freeman.little-possums.net>

[Jens wrote:]
> > I could see people turning a small moon into swiss cheese and living in
> > it, but at that point it will cease to be a moon and begin to be a space
> > station built using an asteroid hull.

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
> things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
> buildings and the like.

You can say that again!  A moon of 50 mile diameter has a volume of
about 20 trillion dtons.  Suppose the moon was indeed turned in "swiss
cheese".  Even if only 1% of the space was living quarters, that's
still 200 billion dtons.  Just think how many staterooms you could fit
into that!  Heck, give every single person 2000 cubic metres in that
1% volume (a rather large house, and that's per person, not per
family) and you've still got room for over a billion people.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>; from JFZeigler@aol.com on Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 04:10:04PM -0400
References: <a3.26d0a8b2.29ec8d9c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020415163142.B9543@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 04:10:04PM -0400, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> 
> One thing I would *not* do is generate a population for every bit of
> rock in a star system - that would get silly pretty quickly. Moons
> of inhabited planets, a few large bodies in any given planetoid
> belt, maybe.

I dunno.  If it _can_ be inhabited, it _may_ be inhabited, and good
random tables should reflect this.

I know that when I finally get the GT world generation done for
travlib that it's going to generate population for every world
(i.e. belt, terrestrial planet and moon).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I read [.doc files] with 'rm.'  All you lose is the Microsoft-specific
font selections, the macro viruses and the luser babblings.
                                      --Gary `Wolf' Barnes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <OF66D276C9.2DAD1A83-ON85256B9C.006477EE@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <007401c1e4cf$89095d20$5d9393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Im really looking forward to this. i got an order in at my FLGS already 8)
>
> Bill
>

Then you'll be pleased to learn that I'm working through the final-ish edit
on the "offending article" right now.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 16:52:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 15 15:52:05 2002
Subject: [TML] T20
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C1799C@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au> <3CB870FA.4AB5787E@virgin.net> <3CB99E25.8AF7D203@virgin.net>
Message-ID: <008901c1e4cf$efbbccb0$5d9393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> I sincerely apologise to everyone involved in the T20 project.  My
> forgetting to include a 'smiley' totally changed the emphasis of the
> message and made it seem negative.  IT WAS NOT MEANT TO BE, as I am
> really looking forward to T20.  for those of you who are not aware of
> the Open Gaming licence, using the d20 system means that everything is
> (to a significant degree) interchangeable.  This means that (with only a
> little effort), i can run any AD&D d20 adventure (and there are loads of
> them on the net) as a low TL adventure, any CoC d20 adventure as a
> terrifying mystery adventure etc., etc.

Heh. I must have missed the original post - gone back and found it now - so
I've decided to be mildly (and retrospectively) annoyed - just to make it
worth your time in writing the apology. (grin).

We're in final preparation now. Layout is still to do, but more or less, we
have a product. I'm guessing weeks now.

Regards

MJD




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 17:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr 15 16:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: open source rpg development
Message-ID: <20020415233039.66503.qmail@web11304.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I do wish to point out who is affected by an effort
that results in taking market share from professional
game designers.  Regardless of their original intent. 
It will be the folks like Loren who live on a
shoestring instead of folks like Bill Gates who
already has more money than he has a purpose for.
END QUOTE

But then it could be argued that any one new who has
an original RPG shouldn't publish (openly or
commercially) because it would take market share from
the already established publihers. Now that idea is
ridiculous. However it wouldn't be moral to make a
open source version of Trav, because then you would be
stealing the ideas of people who need them to make a
living. I however feel that if you want to make a new
original RPG you should go ahead. It's a capatilist
society and if you can't compete against FAR competion
than no one is going to subsidise you (unless you have
friend's in government). I do think people like Loren
do deserve our support though (even though I wouldn't
touch GURPS with a ten foot pole)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 17:41:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 16:41:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Changes to First In rules
In-Reply-To: <20020316213935.3edca0b2.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <005001c1e4d7$00aec5c0$0f01a8c0@terry>

> When working on my program for First In star system generation (see my
> other recent post), I decided to make a few minor changes to the way
the
> rules work. Do the changes below sound reasonable?

I was just looking this over to add to mine and realized there is a
problem with your ratios. A standard sector has stellar systems much
more often than your ratios. It looks like your average assumes 200
systems per sector and that is very low for standard. A sector has 32x40
or 1280 hexes and standard is a 1/2 chance per hex for an average of
640. 
 
> 1) A primary star has a 1/500 chance of being a supergiant. This gives
one
> supergiant per 2.5 sectors (of standard stellar density).

Average of 1.28 per sector, limit of one please!
 
> 2) A primary star has a 1/1500 chance of being a type O star,
resulting in
> one type O star per 7.5 sectors.

Average of one per 2.3 sectors.

> 3) A primary star has a 1/500 chance of being a type B star, resulting
in
> one type B star per 2.5 sectors.

Average of 1.28 per sector. 
 
Regards,

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204160006.EDL06288@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>
>Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right 
>when the user no longer understands what's going on behind 
>the 'curtain'.
>
And how many users know what's going on behind the scenes in 
their browser?  Why is AOL so popular?  Because most people 
don't know and don't care what goes on behind the curtain.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I remember thinking one time when I was staring down
the barrel of a .45, "thank God he does not have a
knife."  Getting penetrated by a knife is 
somehow terrifying, and it also gives the wielder
credible non-lethal options.  I think there have been
several instances in recent times when 
bayonet charges have routed the enemy, even if no one
actually got stabbed. A bayonet would be vital for
handling prisoners, and possibly even reluctant 
heroes.  ;)
END QUOTE

Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
to see is a cloud of dust ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020415.203959.-193407.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

What, because you have dust in your veins instead of blood?  ;-)



                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB75B0.45698CC5@premier.net>


James Ramsay wrote:
> 
> QUOTE
> I remember thinking one time when I was staring down
> the barrel of a .45, "thank God he does not have a
> knife."  Getting penetrated by a knife is
> somehow terrifying, and it also gives the wielder
> credible non-lethal options.  I think there have been
> several instances in recent times when
> bayonet charges have routed the enemy, even if no one
> actually got stabbed. A bayonet would be vital for
> handling prisoners, and possibly even reluctant
> heroes.  ;)
> END QUOTE
> 
> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

And that, sir, is why armies still issue bayonets.... ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020415230829.93725.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
The person who deserves the biggest rocket up the arse
in "Aliens" (military-wise) is the pilot of the
dropship. Though she was originally told that the LZ
had been secured, she'd never make a Traveller-PC
group.
END QUOTE

Thats a bit unfair, it was spunkmeyer who went to take
a piss out side. And I think even recon would get
rattled after the nest encounter. Another thing to
consider is that according to the background material
most of the marines where conscripts. Drake and
Vasquez where convicted criminals and thier sentance
was life in the marines! Now what does that tell you
about the casualty rate of the USCM? No wonder they
only had one squad on a big arse ship like the sulaco!

On a tangent I watched Aliens and Star Wars the other
day and noticed that both use the same type of headset
comunicators. Oh and a funny thing here in Australia,
three of our sailors where arrested for damaging earth
moving equipment! And these people are protecting our
waters?

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 19:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 15 18:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020415164913.7ef2fade.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20415.123003.4N6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020416031009.2bda525e.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
> things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
> buildings and the like.

Thank you for hitting me with the "stupid" stick for the second time in
the last days, Leonard  :-)

I'll crawl back into my dark corner now.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 20:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 15 19:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CT/Book 5 question
Message-ID: <200204160206.EDP04153@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

OK.  Actually a Book 5 question.  Ship has partial 
streamlining. Under the rules, it can do gas giant 
refueling.  If it can move through an upper atmosphere like 
that (presumably at some velocity - after all, we don't want 
to spiral in), can you land such a ship on a world with a 
standard atmosphere?

How does an air/raft do it?  1-G acceleration.  You're riding 
in a vehicle about the size of a HMMWV with the top down.

Feel that wind in your hair...

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 21:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 15 20:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>; from quakers_united@yahoo.com.au on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:36:12AM +1000
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:36:12AM +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
> 
> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

Unless he's the faster...

That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
convincing opposing argument:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Yes, we will want simultaneous translators...No, not when the PM meets
the leaders of the English-speaking nations...Yes, the English-speaking
nations can be said to include the United States.
          --Bernard Wooley, `Yes, Prime Minister'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 15 22:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon Apr 15 21:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CT/Book 5 question
References: <200204160206.EDP04153@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBB9B7E.656C5156@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> OK.  Actually a Book 5 question.  Ship has partial
> streamlining. Under the rules, it can do gas giant
> refueling.  If it can move through an upper atmosphere like
> that (presumably at some velocity - after all, we don't want
> to spiral in), can you land such a ship on a world with a
> standard atmosphere?
>
> How does an air/raft do it?  1-G acceleration.  You're riding
> in a vehicle about the size of a HMMWV with the top down.
>
> Feel that wind in your hair...
>
> ________________
> "Imposed armistices . . . artificially
> freeze conflict and perpetuate a state
> of war indefinitely by shielding the
> weaker side from the consequences of
> refusing to make concessions for peace."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Streamlined ships are trans atmospheric. Air rafts take a number of
hours equal to the UPP size of the planet to orbit/deorbit.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:36:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:36:45 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020415154726.B23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020416064248.CB2DF279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/15/02 at 03:47 PM,  Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> said:

>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>> Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
>> OTU games.

>You don't think it makes sense that people from highly
>technologically advanced societies are richer than modern-day
>Earthlings?  Especially starship crew, who have to live in cramped
>conditions in a hostile environment for weeks at a time?

No, I don't.  

>Last time I checked, on duty submariners generally got paid a lot
>more than bus drivers.  And people in the US generally get paid a lot
>more than people in most other countries for comparable occupations. 
>So to my mind, it makes perfect sense that starship crew from
>high-tech societies should get paid *very* well in TL7 Earth terms.

The crews of free traders *are* the truck drivers and mechanics of the
TU, and that's how they should be paid. That's my opinion, and how it
works IMTU, YTUMV.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:37:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:37:16 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <001e01c1e492$a431a680$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 04/15/02 at 11:31 AM,  Christopher Pratt <cdpratt@gatecom.com>
said:

>Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for those
>kinds of speciallized skills... I mean how much does a Airliner pilot
>make now days...

Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:39:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:39:10 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <OF4155728C.34ECCD82-ONCA256B9D.00183047@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Eris opined:
>>> On 04/15/02 at 12:50 PM,  Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> said:
>>> 
>>>> Damn I only earn about Cr6000 a year on this backwater planet. I'll
>>>> never get my Tigress at this rate.
>>> 
>>> Phil, you better get a job on a starship then. A pilot with a one
>>> level of skill makes as much in a month as you do in a year. Even a
>>> low paid steward gets Cr4000 (plus Cr500 per Steward/Service skill
>>> level) per month!  <g>
>
>>Which makes a steward a well paid individual indeed.  That's about
>>$140,160/year in adjusted dollars.  The Pilot is raking in about 210
>>grand a year in 2002 US dollars.
>
>Yep, and that's why I'm going to go with $1 = Cr1 at 2002 rates in my
>OTU games.

I don't see much of a problem with it. It is in line with - but not 
excessively over-the-top - the idea that the more high-tech a society, the 
more resources each individual in society has to "spend". All of us on the 
TML, for instance, would be considered tremendously wealthy by folks who 
lived a hundred years ago, let alone when compared to peasants living back 
in the days of William the Conqueror.

Star Trek, for example, portrays this is a nicely understated way by 
removing the tokens of money, but then allowing crewmembers to book time 
on the holodeck, or use the replicator. Remember when Harry 
I've-gone-blank-on-his-surname (Voyager's navigator) decided to forgo his 
replicated meal allowance (and eat Neelix's food! Paris: "Hair? I assume 
that's just an expression?" Neelix: "No!") in order to replicate a violin? 
That's the sort of magical transformation that all those alchemists dreamt 
about! (Actually, they would have been happy with just a lump of gold, but 
you get my drift... ;-).

Originally (in 1977), Marc set 1 credit equal to US$1 - at least, on the 
interstellar beer ratio. I believe that may have been modified in the 
early '80's to Cr 1 = US$2. Then you have the effects of those 
local-vs-Imperial credit exchange rate tables (one appears in an early 
JTAS, for instance) which up's the ante again. In short, a pilot paid 
wages in Imperial credits, who then lands on a backwater world, is in a 
similar situation to a modern-day pilot (paid in, say UK pounds or US $$ - 
not AU$, sorry Phill! ;-) who lands in Rwanda. Or Zimbabwe. Or even India. 
He can lord in about and spend all that cash, or can save it up for his 
time back home on that high-tech homeworld where _one_ air/raft costs 
Cr400,000.

Don't sweat it - it's not _that_ hard to get rid of PC's money. I'm sure 
Eris only gave his PBeM players a ship in order to give them a big black 
money-pit... Just make them keep track of everything. I've had one player 
in my game saying the the others, "I know we're under attack, but these 
missiles are Cr10,000 _each_! Do you know how much this missile salvo is 
going to cost us??" To which I, as DM, coached, "Andrew, you're playing a 
_male_ Aslan. WHO CARES how much those missiles cost, just FIRE!!" As a 
large (toothy ;-) grin appeared from behind his beard, the others realised 
the monetary implications of a trigger-happy gunner. This led nicely to 
the party arguing about how many missiles they were going to "waste" on 
defence, while all the while the nasty pirate was allowed to continue 
lasering away their several-orders-of-magnitude-more-expensive superdense 
hull plating!!  ;-)

Ah, me! Players are good at shooting themselves in the foot. You just have 
to get creative when helping them to aim. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:40:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:40:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
Message-ID: <OFF290291A.CB37BC25-ONCA256B9D.0017EFD0@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>>Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
>>"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
>>
>> The origin is bugging me....
>
>It definitely goes back to at least the mid to late 80s. I thought that I
>might have first seen it in "Striker", which would be around 1981 or so, 
but
>I could be mistaken.

You are not mistaken. It's mentioned in Striker Book 2, part of the 
"Integrating with Traveller" section.

My bet is that it goes back to "Starship Troopers".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:43:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:43:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com> <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>

On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:02:50 +1000, Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

>I'll assume that the 100D limit corresponds to a tidal tension
>of 4e-13 s^-2, and hence that the 10D gradient is 4e-10 s^-2.
>
>Let us suppose that each ship is spherical with an average density of
>500 kg/m^3 (i.e. about 7 tonnes/dton).

I.e., about half that of an equal volume of water.  This is probably a
bit low on the density for most Traveller ships, but it is certainly
not too far off the mark for smaller ships which are capable of ocean
refueling.

>Displacement  Diameter  Mass    10D limit  100D limit
>(dtons)       (m)       (Mg)    (m)        (m)
>100           13.8      685     61.1       611
>1000          29.7      6850    131.7      1317
>10000         64.0      68500   283.8      2838
>100000        138       685000  611.4      6114
>
>As you can see, the hull surface is far inside the 10D limit.
>
>The formulae are pretty simple: mass =3D density * volume,
>volume =3D pi D^3 / 6  for a sphere,
>T =3D 2 G M / R^3.

Thanks for providing the formulas in addition to doing the table.
This certainly is useful for an earlier discussion regarding Jump
Masking (consult the archives if you are curious).

>JR Holmes wrote:
>> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force
>> upon itself
>
>You are.  This is very important in determining Roche's limit, for
>example.

I remain unconvinced in this regard.  "Roche's Limit is the distance
from a planet inside which a satellite will be torn apart by tidal
forces." (from http://www.cvc.org/astronomy/roche_limit.htm) or
"Roche's Limit, which is the distance from a planet at which the
planet's tidal force on a satellite (tending to stretch apart) is
equal to the satellite's self-gravity (tending to hold it together)."
(from http://utrao.as.utexas.edu/ast301/log/log22.html)

As per the above, Roche's Limit is where these tidal forces (a
tensional force) equal the compressional forces of an object's own
gravity.  But this is in regard to the tidal forces exerted _with
regard to another body_.  Without the other body, no tidal force.

It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In another
of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional and
compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive me if
I am interpreting you incorrectly).  I believe you are in error in
this regard.  As per the above, the compressional forces are due to
the object's self-gravity and only the tensional forces are due to the
influence of another body and therefore are tidal forces.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:43:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:43:58 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8E09124.3A634%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEKDHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Tod Glenn wrote :
> on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> > In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> > starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> > stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
>
> Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.
> Right when the user no longer understands what's going
> on behind the 'curtain'.

That happens at TL 6 for most people.

How many people actually understand how even an internal
combustion engine works, let alone a computer ?

IME, the vast majority of people (i.e people who don't
subscribe to the TML) effectively consider anything beyond
simple mechanical machines "magic".

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:44:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:44:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
(of radiation effects on fertility)
> Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
> men, if you prefer)?

Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
the testis to ionising radiation.

Larsen Whipsnade wrote :-
> GURPS, in Compendium II, handles this in the following manner.
> If a female has a lifetime dose of 250 rads, her offspring, and
> any problems they may have, are entirely at the GM's discretion.
There probably won't be any offspring (permanent sterility in 75%).

> Realistic?  Yes.
Nah, in GURPS it's usually an excuse for the GM to introduce Weird
Mutant Powers (TM) <g>


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:45:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:45:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20414.225006.1X5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi,

> Thing is, the density of "rocky" planets (as opposed to gas giants and
> the iceballs you find in the outer system) is pretty uniform.

For Mercury (5.43), Venus (5.24) and Earth (5.52), yes.
For Mars (3.93), any Jovian moon (some of which are considered "rocky", e.g.
Io, at 3.53), and a few others, no.
Personally, I'd reckon that density can vary considerably even for rocky
worlds, say from 3.0 to nearly 7.8 (almost totally iron) or 8.5+ (almost
totally nickel).

> So if there's any sort of safety factor built in to the "100 diameter"
> rule, it'll work fine except in *really* oddball situations (say trying
> to jump close to a *big* nickel-iron asteroid).

So ... if I had a planet with an extremely large Ni-Fe core, and a higher
mean density as a result, say towards 6.5 or 7.0, then the 100D rule would
not be good enough. Another hazard for exploring uncharted systems, I guess.

> The details *do* matter, because the forces at the *hull* of even a
> small ship will *exceed* those from a planet at 100 diameters. That's a
> *unavoidable*.

Leonard, please don't emphasise words with asterisks. It just makes things
harder to read and comes over patronising, even if that's not intended.

*Try* *reading* *this* *sentence* *to* *see* *what* *I* *mean*.

Also, if we have to handwave away the tidal gradient due to the ship's hull,
then I'd argue that the tidal gradient is not the principal factor in a
misjump, no matter how well the figures fit.

> So a ship *has* to be able to compensate for the forces generated by
> its own mass.

Having said that, if that's the case, then maybe that's where all the Jump
Fuel goes - maybe.

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:49:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:49:13 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>

I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
_recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.

Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
like you are too valuable to lose.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:50:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:50:20 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OF79538278.A1B0E48C-ON85256B9C.005AE8D9@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBC25E4.2080505@magpiesnest.co.uk>

William Lane wrote:

> has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a line at
> wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.
> 
Certainly have Bill (though now I tend to use JAXP, which is based around Xerces but has differences). Send me your questions and I will do my best to answer them for you.



-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 07:56:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Apr 16 06:56:07 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW! I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <F165K8onzvMMl6Dcu4n00003775@hotmail.com>

Congratulations, Jeff!  Thanks for *your* work!


>From: Jeff Zeitlin <editor@freelancetraveller.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
>Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 07:23:41 -0400
>
>I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
>protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
>Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
>flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
>never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
>_recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
>
>Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
>allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
>more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
>you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
>like you are too valuable to lose.
>
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
>Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
>http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
>http://www.freelancetraveller.com
>http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
>editor@freelancetraveller.com
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
Message-ID: <OF8A9C8510.72B94182-ON85256B9D.004D468D@pheaa.org>








>> has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a line at
>> wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.

>Certainly have Bill (though now I tend to use JAXP, which is based around
Xerces but has differences). Send me your >questions and I will do my best
to answer them for you.


Here is what im doing im developing a java application that reads an xml
file and parses it into 3 seperate COBOL data files. the cobol group
eventually runs their apps and uses the data from these flat files. once
they are through they send them back to me. i then want to parse these 3
files into a single new xml file.

i have gotten to where i am creating the new document. i can append
children on it ect.. ect..

however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to actually be
written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im new to XML and Xerces
is not the best documented thing i have ever worked with. i was looking at
maybe using the serializer to send a outPutStream through it. but it would
seem to me that xerces should have a way of building this document out on
the drive.

but maybe im just wishful thinking 8P

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:17:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RULES - Skill Lvl. 0
Message-ID: <12414.1018957560@www34.gmx.net>

Hello Together,

I'm kind of new to actually play Megatraveller. Now I've encountered a
problem regarding 'Skill-Level-0-serves-as-Level-minus-1-Skills'. My Problem is :
If you have a Skill at Level 0 (e.g. Grav Vehicle-0), and this Skill 'serves
as' another Skill at Level minus 1 (Grav Vehicle serves as Grav Belt -1), at
which Level do I execute the 'served' Skill (Grav Belt)?
at : Level -1 (-> giving a negative DM of 1)?
at : Level 0 (-> minimum Skill-Level is allways 0)?
or not at all (-> there are no 'served' Skills for Level-0-Skills)?

Is there an official rule (which I did not find - sorry), or any other
sollutions?

Thank you, Sebastian

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>

Stephen Tempest posts:
>Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =20

Shouldnt the hull code be Z? I though Y was for 1,000,000 to 
1,999,999. Z was for anything above that. 

>MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
Architects fees? Anyone?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 08:51:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:51:14 2002
Subject: [TML] List outtage
Message-ID: <B8E1855D.3A929%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all,

Owing to an uncheduled outage on the part of my ISP, the mailing list hosted
at TravellerCentral.com were unavailable from about 11pm last night (PST)
until early this morning.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Tod
-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Marsh)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
Message-ID: <F58wAeRaNgEpTX5V3Gy00000309@hotmail.com>

I do not have my LBB in front of me; I thought the term was first used in 
Book 4 either with the illustration of the Forward Observer or in the Iron 
Mongery section. This would have well preceded Striker. Can anyone confirm 
this? (I agree it was prob. lifted from some fiction)


>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
>Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 16:17:04 +1000
>
>Dear Folks -
>
> >>Can anyone suggest where they first saw reference to the Term
> >>"Ortillery" for orbital artillery?
> >>
> >> The origin is bugging me....
> >
> >It definitely goes back to at least the mid to late 80s. I thought that I
> >might have first seen it in "Striker", which would be around 1981 or so,
>but
> >I could be mistaken.
>
>You are not mistaken. It's mentioned in Striker Book 2, part of the
>"Integrating with Traveller" section.
>
>My bet is that it goes back to "Starship Troopers".
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014401c1e55a$62849d00$1f9e15ac@warrior>

hmm... good point... both the part about the PC scrapping for cash, and the
IYTU justification for it...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 12:58 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?


> On 04/15/02 at 11:31 AM,  Christopher Pratt <cdpratt@gatecom.com>
> said:
>
> >Espically the pilot... $210k dosen't seem too outta wack for those
> >kinds of speciallized skills... I mean how much does a Airliner pilot
> >make now days...
>
> Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
> skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
> They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
> thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
> in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
> living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.
>
> Eris
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
In-Reply-To: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075705.009f3cf0@mindspring.com>

At 07:23 AM 4/16/02 -0400, you wrote:

>I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
>protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
>Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
>flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
>never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
>_recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
>
>Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
>allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
>more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
>you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
>like you are too valuable to lose.

Hey, you earned it!

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
end of the world is fast approaching."
- Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:26:28 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <B8E09124.3A634%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204151758.ECZ05255@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>

At 02:16 PM 4/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>
> > In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
> > starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
> > stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
>
>Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right when the user no
>longer understands what's going on behind the 'curtain'.

Hell, for me that's today!  I can use my comp[uter, but for all I know, 
this beige box is actually home to a tribe of magic pixes.

There was a great SF story written years ago, might even have been golden 
age, about a bunch of scientists who build a time machine. They can grab 
one person from the future.  They get an ad executive.  Sure there are 
cancer curesm flying cars, etc, but he just knows how to use them, not how 
they work.

I still find it amazing and rather magical that this little bit of dreck 
will be read by people on the other side of the planet (hi Jens and Hans!) 
I sort of understand that it will be shuffled around by a lot of computers 
that do that sort of thing, but beyond that?  Nothing.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
In-Reply-To: <OF8A9C8510.72B94182-ON85256B9D.004D468D@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCMECKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

William

I did mail you off list ... but since you replied to the list, well, hey ...
;-)

> however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to actually be
> written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im new to XML
> and Xerces
> is not the best documented thing i have ever worked with. i was looking at
> maybe using the serializer to send a outPutStream through it. but it would
> seem to me that xerces should have a way of building this document out on
> the drive.

Try the following sort of thing -

try {
		myFileWriter = new FileWriter( "filename.xml");
		myFileWriter.flush();

		myDocumentImpl = new DocumentImpl();

		// ...



// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
		// Code to generate root element here, omitted for clarity


// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-


		// ...

		OutputFormat myOutputFormat = new OutputFormat( myDocumentImpl );
		myOutputFormat.setIndent( 4 );
		myOutputFormat.setIndenting( true );

		myOutputFormat.setDoctype( "filename.dtd" , "filename.dtd" );

		myXMLSerializer = new XMLSerializer( myOutputFormat );
		myXMLSerializer.setOutputCharStream( myFileWriter );


		// ...



// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
		// Generate the rest of the document, again omitted for clarity, then
write it


// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

		// ...

		myXMLSerializer.serialize( myDocumentImpl );
		myOutputFormat.flush();
	}
catch ( IOException ioe )
	{
	}

Hope this helps.

Andy B

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204161835500.25492-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
> Hell, for me that's today!  I can use my comp[uter, but for all I know, 
> this beige box is actually home to a tribe of magic pixes.
[snip]
> I still find it amazing and rather magical that this little bit of dreck 
> will be read by people on the other side of the planet (hi Jens and Hans!) 
> I sort of understand that it will be shuffled around by a lot of computers 
> that do that sort of thing, but beyond that?  Nothing.

The more I get to know about how things work, the more I think that they
are indeed powered by magic. And mathematics, which is almost the same
stuff. B-)

Trust me, you are better off not knowing how computer networks are built.
You might wonder how they do work at all... B-)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
Message-ID: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>







>I did mail you off list ... but since you replied to the list, well, hey
...
>;-)

Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
info.

Bill












From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RULES - Skill Lvl. 0
In-Reply-To: <12414.1018957560@www34.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAECLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hello

Originally, Skill Level - 0 meant no skill at all, and Skill Level - 1/2
meant some familiarity at a basic level, enough to avoid a penalty for
absolutely no ability or knowledge but not enough to actually grant a +DM.

Then it changed, so that the absence of the skill on a character sheet meant
no skill at all, and 0 meant some familiarity.

I rule that if you have Skill Level - 0 in something, then the next level
down would be no knowledge at all or the "absence" condition above.

Basically, Skill Level - 0 invokes no bonus and incurs no penalty. It does
not mean that you have Skill Level - 0 in a related skill, you're a
greenhorn with some learnin' is all.

Andy B.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:45:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:45:29 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCECLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> There was a great SF story written years ago, might even have been golden
> age, about a bunch of scientists who build a time machine. They can grab
> one person from the future.  They get an ad executive.  Sure there are
> cancer curesm flying cars, etc, but he just knows how to use
> them, not how they work.

Now that is what I call a grade A bad day ... pulling an ad exec from the
future - yeuch !

Andy B


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 09:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 16 08:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204161835500.25492-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <20020416155310.3125.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

> You might wonder how they do work at all... B-)

The place I used to work had an exceptionally
dimwitted programmer.  I mean, sitting listening to
his ideas for solving problems (the few he had) was an
exercise in humor at the least.  In any case, he would
work well into the night when code was due and his
stuff would eventually come close to working.  When we
found a bug, we looked for the code and it appeared
that the code was not doing what the system was doing.
 To this day, we swear he must've been sacrificing
chickens or virgins or virgin chickens or something to
get the stuff to work.

ObTrav:  There is a (Star Trek created?) stereotype of
the engineer who can fix anything but no one can tell
how he does it.  What other stereotypes are common in
your games?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:11:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:11:15 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
In-Reply-To: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <B8E19A80.35FF%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

on 4/16/02 4:23 AM, Jeff Zeitlin at editor@freelancetraveller.com wrote:

> I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
> protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
> Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
> flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
> never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
> _recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
> 
> Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
> allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
> more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
> you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people
> like you are too valuable to lose.
> 

You deserve a lot more credit than you're giving yourself, Jeff.

I've submitted a couple of things, and Jeff not only posts them, he does an
wonderful job at layout, making them much easier to read than the raw text I
gave him (and probably making them a better read than they actually are).
That is a LOT of work, and it shows.  The whole site is great.

I'm giving you a standing ovation (well, not now, I'm typing - OK, there it
was, did you feel it?).

Thanks Jeff, you are the Fourth Force in Traveller support.

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:15:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:15:47 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <OF7A3367D5.83EB7401-ON85256B9D.0057F13F@pheaa.org>




<snip>
The place I used to work had an exceptionally
dimwitted programmer.  I mean, sitting listening to
his ideas for solving problems (the few he had) was an
exercise in humor at the least.
</snip>

Hmm you know i feel just like that right now. the Dimwitted Programmer 8(


>we swear he must've been sacrificing
>chickens or virgins or virgin chickens or something to
>get the stuff to work.

So if it works where can i get any of the above? or would a Groat do as
well?


OBTRAV:

The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
other.

Captain asks "What are you doing?"

New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"

Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P







From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:33:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:33:52 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <F20f7SMIaeYt2KoTstO00000c20@hotmail.com>

>From: "William Lane" <wlane@aessuccess.org>
>
>
>OBTRAV:
>
>The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
>Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
>engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
>Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
>other.
>
>Captain asks "What are you doing?"
>
>New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
>works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
>
>Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P

Jason Wright, the Merchant Ex-scout I play in Eris' Reaver's Deep game just 
raced into the engineering spaces when the gunner asked why the new engineer 
was taking apart the jump drive (since we were planning on lifting next day 
or so).

He raced in to find the Vargr hanging upside down with panels open and 
probes inserted, and the practical joking vargr with a flash bang for just 
such an occurance.

I'm wondering about her right now.  Current odds are that she'll make it 
through the first jump, but we'll space her during the second...

;-)

Thanks, Eris, for the Black-hole Money Pit which has seperated us from much 
money...

Greg

aka Rewock Mopit

Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 10:40:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 09:40:15 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <200204161638.EET02699@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Andrew MacLintock" says
>
>Jason Wright, the Merchant Ex-scout I play in Eris' Reaver's 
>Deep game just raced into the engineering spaces when the 
>gunner asked why the new engineer was taking apart the jump 
>drive (since we were planning on lifting next day 
>or so).
>
>He raced in to find the Vargr hanging upside down with 
>panels open and probes inserted, and the practical joking 
>vargr with a flash bang for just such an occurance.
>
>I'm wondering about her right now.  Current odds are that 
>she'll make it 
>through the first jump, but we'll space her during the 
>second...
>

Don't laugh.  When I was in Pershing (nuclear missiles, yes), 
we used to supplicate unto Dis, the God of Chaos, and ask for 
the Gift of Pre-Emptive Causality to take our bad luck away 
and bestow it upon the other missile platoons.

It worked.  Boy did it ever.  It got so bad that we were 
ordered to stop worshipping Dis.

Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from 
the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up 
during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and 
said, "Behold, Our God!".
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <200204161638.EET02699@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416131656.00b84c10@urbin.net>

At 12:38 PM 4/16/02 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
[snip]
>Don't laugh.  When I was in Pershing (nuclear missiles, yes),
>we used to supplicate unto Dis, the God of Chaos, and ask for
>the Gift of Pre-Emptive Causality to take our bad luck away
>and bestow it upon the other missile platoons.
>It worked.  Boy did it ever.  It got so bad that we were
>ordered to stop worshipping Dis.
>Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from
>the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
>again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up
>during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and
>said, "Behold, Our God!".

My keyboard is grateful that I wasn't drinking at the time.
I'm still chuckling though, that counts as a kill.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:27:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:27:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk> <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com> <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>

As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
something:

At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEJMDKAA.tml@downport.com>

I think that would be a fine use for a lot of those extra, windbag nobles we
have lying around the Imperium. Make them barristers, judges, justices,
notaries public or attorneys general! Do something to stop them cluttering
up the casinos and VIP lounges.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Texas Redshift

As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
something:

At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:43:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:43:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <200204161741.EEV03115@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Texas Redshift" says
>How litigous is the Imperium?
I'm not even sure there's an Imperial Supreme Court.  The 
individual governments seem to have their own laws and 
courts.  There is also the idea expressed in canon that this 
is a different age, where lawsuits across the Imperium do not 
happen.

There might be some legal agreements between various 
systems.  

But IMHO, the litigation level depends on the law level and 
the government type.

One of the first Traveller adventures I was in (1979), we 
were in a ground car accident - minor fender bender.  I 
hadn't gotten the idea down that there was Law Level Zero.

I got out of the car with the others, and asked the other 
driver if he had insurance.  He said, "No."  So I said to my 
friends, "I think we should wait for the police."  They 
laughed and said, "Hey stupid, there are no police."

So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the 
occupants of the other car without warning.  Then we went 
through their pockets for loose change.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 11:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 10:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018978883.2225.ajackson@ping>

Texas Redshift writes:
> As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
> something:
> 
> At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
> Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
> judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Depends on the world.  There are canon references to 'government of men, not
laws', which implies on the interstellar level it's not litigous per se, and
annoying the local judge with frivolous suits is probably a poor idea.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] CSC software
Message-ID: <200204161814.EEV08005@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I keep seeing references to this.  Is it still available?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416121821.009f23a0@mail.attbi.com>

	Here is a question for you technical types.
	Would a sandcaster actually work as well in the real world as it is 
portrayed in canon?  Also, would a sandcaster affect a particle beam at all?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:33:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:33:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F1633Sv0YKpDS7hx27k00013014@hotmail.com>

Perhaps contracts would provide that disputes would be resolved in a certain 
forum.  For instance, all disputes must be resolved in the Third District 
Court of Regina/Regina or by binding arbitration of the merchant guild or by 
Quickcourts, LIC.

If the Imperium operates as a functioning far-flung market economy, which 
seems to be the case, it must have some efficient method of dispute 
resolution.

>Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
>Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

Was there is an old JTAS article on Imperial justice?

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:35:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:35:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416121821.009f23a0@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018981937.7543.ajackson@ping>

Dale Gyles writes:
>      Here is a question for you technical types.
>      Would a sandcaster actually work as well in the real world as it is 
> portrayed in canon?  Also, would a sandcaster affect a particle beam at
> all? 

Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would work
reasonably well against just about any weapon.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:40:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:40:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <200204161837.EEX02352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Dale Gyles says
>
>	Here is a question for you technical types.
>	Would a sandcaster actually work as well in the real 
>world as it is portrayed in canon?  Also, would a sandcaster 
>affect a particle beam at all?
>
The spot size for the projected SBL is around a foot in 
diameter. The US Air Force is assuming that missiles will be 
painted or coated to optimize reflectivity, and they also 
anticipate that the missiles will spin to reduce the 
effectiveness of the laser.  "Sand" or some sort of 
particulate matter that interferes with the operation of the 
beam, would have to be held in close proximity to the ship.  
The beam has such a small spot size, that to effectively 
maintain a density of sand which would reduce the 
effectiveness of the beam means that you cannot allow it to 
disperse.  There are also plasmas that can be formed that 
might increase the reflectivity of the ship itself at the 
expense of increasing the ship''s signature.

The main way that the SBL intends to defeat reflective 
coatings, spinning, heavier construction, ablative coatings, 
and other countermeasures is to scale up the power.  In the 
case of missiles, they give good arguments as to why the 
countermeasures are, within an ability to hold the beam on 
target for four seconds, ineffective.  That is, with current 
tech, the coatings and spinning are already factored into the 
laser's design.  

As for a particle beam, the amount of material is so 
miniscule, and so thinly spread (the beam is probably 
neutrons), that sand would be useless.  These beams are also 
regarded as being more effective at penetrating armor (from 
the point of view of the Air Force) than a laser.  Both 
radiation damage and deep heating are expected to occur with 
a particle beam weapon.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CSC software
References: <200204161814.EEV08005@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC70CD.1060806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I keep seeing references to this.  Is it still available?

At Bits:

http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/BITS_website/Productsfolder/prod_INFV.htm

Mac only, but a sweet piece of software, if I do say so myself.

For some examples of designs see:

http://oscar.pharmacy.arizona.edu/csc_page.html

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <200204161837.EEX02352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018982859.1183.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> As for a particle beam, the amount of material is so 
> miniscule, and so thinly spread (the beam is probably 
> neutrons), that sand would be useless.  These beams are also 
> regarded as being more effective at penetrating armor (from 
> the point of view of the Air Force) than a laser.  Both 
> radiation damage and deep heating are expected to occur with 
> a particle beam weapon.

Erm.  Probably not neutrons, you can't accelerate them or aim them, though a
space-based particle beam would accelerate ions and then remove the charge,
resulting in a neutral particle beam (penetration would not be better than a
charged particle beam).  Problem with particle beams is they're very difficult
to focus.  Advantage is if you crank the per-particle energies high enough, the
levels of shielding possible on a realistic missile are pretty much irrelevant,
and you can radiation-cook the entire missile.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 12:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J A (Jim) Cooper)
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
References: <cm1obugip2chp6jis272bboec4h0gtg844@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c1e577$fb937b20$9c8c4218@mshome.net>

I would also like to add my congratulations to those of DB and JW. I have
used the sight often and repeatedly.
Keep up the good work.

Jim Cooper

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Zeitlin" <editor@freelancetraveller.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 4:23 AM
Subject: [TML] WOW! I'm massively flattered!


> I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
> protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make Freelance
> Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
> flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, I
> never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to be
> _recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
>
> Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who has
> allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work
> more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as
> you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on;
people
> like you are too valuable to lose.
>
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
> Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
> http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
> http://www.freelancetraveller.com
> http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
> editor@freelancetraveller.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <200204161741.EEV03115@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC7D4F.7020102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> I got out of the car with the others, and asked the other 
> driver if he had insurance.  He said, "No."  So I said to my 
> friends, "I think we should wait for the police."  They 
> laughed and said, "Hey stupid, there are no police."
> 
> So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the 
> occupants of the other car without warning.  Then we went 
> through their pockets for loose change.

How long did your party survive before the local residents rounded you 
up and hung you?

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:37:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:37:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>

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In a message dated 15/04/02 17:23:52 GMT Daylight Time, 
firelock_ny@hotmail.com writes:


> One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
> only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
> than they pay out in claims.
> 
> If you are a large enough organization, like a Mega-Corp,
> then your insurable losses from any particular event should
> be low enough (as a percentage of your total income) that it
> will be a better option for you to absorb the losses as they
> occur rather than continuously pay out insurance premiums.
> You'll "self-insure", by keeping cash on hand enough to cover emergencies 
> and accidents.  This is a good way for a large
> enough company to do business, since this "cash on hand",
> while it's on hand, can be earning for the company while
> insurance premiums are gone.

I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Any company, no matter how large, that 
believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
disaster. Trivial accidents, like the loss of a starship or the destruction 
of a drilling platform, are by their nature unpredictable and that is one of 
the best reasons for having insurance. True a single trivial accident can be 
absorbed easily but what about ten or twenty close together?

How can money put aside to insure against risk earn money for the company? It 
has to be safe and readily available at all times. You can't simply leave it 
sitting in an account - AFAIK banks simply don't pay interest on huge sums. 
That leaves you with safe but easily accessible investments which may not 
earn as much as the new unobtanium extraction rig you could have built with 
the money. And how do we decide how much to put aside? We need a specialist 
department to calculate risk and analyse patterns to decide what risks we 
should cover and how much we should put aside. Why not make it easy for 
ourselves and use a specialist outside contractor to do all the hard work?

> 
> If a catastrophe happens that destroys more value of your
> megacorp assets than you would have been paying out in
> insurance premiums, then chances are a war caused it - and
> insurance companies are noted for not paying out claims
> on damage caused by acts of war anyway.

Not neccessarily so - let's say that my mega-corp discovers this fantastic 
new fire-retarding, insulation material. It's easy and cheap to make and can 
be cut and moulded to all sorts of shapes. We call it Sotsebsa and it sells 
like hot cakes. Unfortunately it soon turns out that our wonder product has 
some undocumented problems - mostly it's safe but if you breathe in its dust 
you develop a really nasty, debilitating and fatal lung disease. True high TL 
medicine can cure it in a snap but we mostly sold this stuff on moderate tech 
worlds and millions of people are claiming we've poisoned them.

Now the cost of an individual claim is trivial but the cost of millions is 
not, particularly as we're not going to accept responsibility anywhere in 
case it sets a precedent. What's more our investors can see they're returns 
dwindling, after all we're spending more and more money on defence and 
compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral - 
we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet all of 
them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet these costs. 
Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have previously paid 
them, saving us in the long run, money.

And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want absorb 
the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to perform some 
unplanned demolition on the local school district? 

> 
> So, you'll have two tiers of starship out there.  The
> small or independent operator, who buys insurance (since a
> single event will likely put him out of business otherwise).
> The large corp, which may self-insure (that is, put money
> aside to cover replacement, rather than pay out premiums).

As I said above it's not just a question of assets. Does the mega-corp just 
cover the replacement of its starship or does it cover the potential loss of 
an up-port, down-port, all the other ships in dock, assorted cats, dogs and 
groats plus the mental well-being of little old ladies? If it's the former 
how much money does the mega-corp put aside to cover the legal costs of 
fighting the claims of the other groups? Again it makes far better business 
sense to transfer the risk to someone else. 

> 
> If most of a starport's traffic is megacorp vessels,
> then that starport won't have the insurance industry
> involved as much with starport safety requirements.
> The megacorp may have to post a bond of some sort, but
> this bond may be a trivial formality if the megacorp
> is in bed with the local starport authority...which they
> probably will be, the megacorp likely built the bed,
> washed the linens and hired the nubile young bedwarmers.
> 
> The small independent operator may have to post a bond
> of sorts to gain access to a starport as well.  This bond
> may well be posted by the independent operator's insurance
> carrier on behalf of all the carrier's clients, with the
> insurance carrier requiring operators to meet certain
> safety guidelines to get coverage and access to the bond.
> 
> Walt Smith
> 

I agree there will be different standards for private operators and 
mega-corps but that doesn't mean that mega-corps will self-insure. My 
argument is that the job of assessing risk and betting that accidents won't 
happen is a specialised business. Mega-corps, although they might have 
insurance arms, are not in the business of risking that they won't have the 
funds needed to cover a disaster. It is far easier, and in the long run more 
cost effective, to transfer risk to someone else.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 15/04/02 17:23:52 GMT Daylight Time, firelock_ny@hotmail.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">One thing to remember about insurance companies:&nbsp; they are<BR>
only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums<BR>
than they pay out in claims.<BR>
<BR>
If you are a large enough organization, like a Mega-Corp,<BR>
then your insurable losses from any particular event should<BR>
be low enough (as a percentage of your total income) that it<BR>
will be a better option for you to absorb the losses as they<BR>
occur rather than continuously pay out insurance premiums.<BR>
You'll "self-insure", by keeping cash on hand enough to cover emergencies <BR>
and accidents.&nbsp; This is a good way for a large<BR>
enough company to do business, since this "cash on hand",<BR>
while it's on hand, can be earning for the company while<BR>
insurance premiums are gone.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Any company, no matter how large, that believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to disaster. Trivial accidents, like the loss of a starship or the destruction of a drilling platform, are by their nature unpredictable and that is one of the best reasons for having insurance. True a single trivial accident can be absorbed easily but what about ten or twenty close together?<BR>
<BR>
How can money put aside to insure against risk earn money for the company? It has to be safe and readily available at all times. You can't simply leave it sitting in an account - AFAIK banks simply don't pay interest on huge sums. That leaves you with safe but easily accessible investments which may not earn as much as the new unobtanium extraction rig you could have built with the money. And how do we decide how much to put aside? We need a specialist department to calculate risk and analyse patterns to decide what risks we should cover and how much we should put aside. Why not make it easy for ourselves and use a specialist outside contractor to do all the hard work?</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
If a catastrophe happens that destroys more value of your<BR>
megacorp assets than you would have been paying out in<BR>
insurance premiums, then chances are a war caused it - and<BR>
insurance companies are noted for not paying out claims<BR>
on damage caused by acts of war anyway.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Not neccessarily so - let's say that my mega-corp discovers this fantastic new fire-retarding, insulation material. It's easy and cheap to make and can be cut and moulded to all sorts of shapes. We call it Sotsebsa and it sells like hot cakes. Unfortunately it soon turns out that our wonder product has some undocumented problems - mostly it's safe but if you breathe in its dust you develop a really nasty, debilitating and fatal lung disease. True high TL medicine can cure it in a snap but we mostly sold this stuff on moderate tech worlds and millions of people are claiming we've poisoned them.<BR>
<BR>
Now the cost of an individual claim is trivial but the cost of millions is not, particularly as we're not going to accept responsibility anywhere in case it sets a precedent. What's more our investors can see they're returns dwindling, after all we're spending more and more money on defence and compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral - we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet all of them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet these costs. Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have previously paid them, saving us in the long run, money.<BR>
<BR>
And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want absorb the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to perform some unplanned demolition on the local school district? </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
So, you'll have two tiers of starship out there.&nbsp; The<BR>
small or independent operator, who buys insurance (since a<BR>
single event will likely put him out of business otherwise).<BR>
The large corp, which may self-insure (that is, put money<BR>
aside to cover replacement, rather than pay out premiums).</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">As I said above it's not just a question of assets. Does the mega-corp just cover the replacement of its starship or does it cover the potential loss of an up-port, down-port, all the other ships in dock, assorted cats, dogs and groats plus the mental well-being of little old ladies? If it's the former how much money does the mega-corp put aside to cover the legal costs of fighting the claims of the other groups? Again it makes far better business sense to transfer the risk to someone else. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
If most of a starport's traffic is megacorp vessels,<BR>
then that starport won't have the insurance industry<BR>
involved as much with starport safety requirements.<BR>
The megacorp may have to post a bond of some sort, but<BR>
this bond may be a trivial formality if the megacorp<BR>
is in bed with the local starport authority...which they<BR>
probably will be, the megacorp likely built the bed,<BR>
washed the linens and hired the nubile young bedwarmers.<BR>
<BR>
The small independent operator may have to post a bond<BR>
of sorts to gain access to a starport as well.&nbsp; This bond<BR>
may well be posted by the independent operator's insurance<BR>
carrier on behalf of all the carrier's clients, with the<BR>
insurance carrier requiring operators to meet certain<BR>
safety guidelines to get coverage and access to the bond.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I agree there will be different standards for private operators and mega-corps but that doesn't mean that mega-corps will self-insure. My argument is that the job of assessing risk and betting that accidents won't happen is a specialised business. Mega-corps, although they might have insurance arms, are not in the business of risking that they won't have the funds needed to cover a disaster. It is far easier, and in the long run more cost effective, to transfer risk to someone else.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:46:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:46:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC7F09.6050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
> skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
> They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
> thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
> in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
> living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.


Eris' methods:

PC's inherit fine, functioning starship. PC's overjoyed, one 
particularly stupid one makes dumb DUMB comments about how easy it'll be 
to compete with ship owners who have a mortgage to pay. (Gee I wonder 
who?;-)

Bad guys steal ship.

Space Patroooool to the Rescuuue! <sound of inspirational music, 
punctuated by large explosions>

Space Patrol "Here. We caught the hijackers and recovered your ship. 
Thank us!"

PC's "But there are large holes in our ship where there used to be a 
jump drive, a drive controller, and a safe in the ship's locker"

SP: "Well they didn't surrender peacefully. Thank us and don't ask 
questions."

PC's notice that SP officer is wearing secret police uniform."Thank you"

PC's go to bank and get large loan to get ship flying again.

<scrape scrape> Hold up cardboard signs "Will carry stuff for credits" 
just like all the other free traders...
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:48:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:48:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson asks
>
>How long did your party survive before the local residents 
>rounded you  up and hung you?
>
That was the problem.  They had friends.  We got back to 
town, and they heard about it.  Later that day, when we were 
strolling into the front foyer of the guest house were were 
staying at, three men stepped into the room and opened up on 
us with submachineguns.  Of the six people in our party, one 
survived.  The three attackers died, but the locals were 
steamed enough to shoot the survivor after hearing his tale.

It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
received.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 13:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 03:36:24PM -0400
References: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020416135830.A13448@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 03:36:24PM -0400, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have to disagree, I'm afraid.  Any company, no matter how large, that 
> believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
> disaster.

But that's what an insurance company does...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Whenever you walk by a computer and see someone using pico, be kind.
Pause for a second and remind yourself that: `There, but for the grace
of God, go I.'                                           --Harley Hahn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:12:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:12:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <9c.1e6dedd5.29edd738@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018987914.6966.ajackson@ping>

CHam628781@aol.com writes:
> In a message dated 15/04/02 17:23:52 GMT Daylight Time, 
> firelock_ny@hotmail.com writes:
> 
> > One thing to remember about insurance companies:  they are
> > only successful if their clients pay them far more in premiums
> > than they pay out in claims.

This isn't actually true.  It's enough if 'payments plus interest on payments'
exceeds average payout.

> I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Any company, no matter how large, that 
> believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
> disaster. Trivial accidents, like the loss of a starship or the destruction
>  of a drilling platform, are by their nature unpredictable and that is one
> of  the best reasons for having insurance. True a single trivial accident
> can be  absorbed easily but what about ten or twenty close together?

Beyond a certain point, there's no choice.  Also, businesses do sometimes fail.
> 
> How can money put aside to insure against risk earn money for the company?

You 'put it aside' in assets and investments.

> It  has to be safe and readily available at all times.

Nah.  Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the
resources and reputation of the company.
> compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral
> -  we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet
> all of  them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet
> these costs.  Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have
> previously paid  them, saving us in the long run, money.

Well, given that it's your fault, the insurance is likely to be reluctant to
pay anyway.
> 
> And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want
> absorb  the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to
> perform some  unplanned demolition on the local school district? 

Many real-world large companies do exactly that.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <200204162032.EFB01691@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

We could go on and discuss how reserves are handled, explain 
the concept of the "book of business", and talk about 
reinsurance.

IMTU I feel that ship insurance is handled much more like 
Lloyd's (with individuals teaming up to take on risk) rather 
than like the auto insurance model.  Starships seem so much 
more risky than automobiles, and the payout on loss is so 
high, that I can truly see it taking a form resembling 
organized gambling (which is, after all, what Lloyd's is 
running - the world's highest paying casino - hope you don't 
lose).

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <200204161638.EET02699@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416132832.009ffd60@mindspring.com>

At 12:38 PM 4/16/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Don't laugh.  When I was in Pershing (nuclear missiles, yes),
>we used to supplicate unto Dis, the God of Chaos, and ask for
>the Gift of Pre-Emptive Causality to take our bad luck away
>and bestow it upon the other missile platoons.

"Humans, humans pay your dues
Just two paths that you get to chose
Feed us right, or fight and lose
Gremlins everywhere."  - Leslie Fish

I knew mechanics who would, with all seriousness, leave out plates of milk 
for the Gremlins.  These units had the highest readiness rates in the brigade.

>It worked.  Boy did it ever.  It got so bad that we were
>ordered to stop worshipping Dis.

Does the phrase "freedom of religion" mean anything?  I was openly a 
Discordian while in the service.

>Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from
>the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
>again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up
>during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and
>said, "Behold, Our God!".

Actually, I would have thought it would be the Sergeant Major who had a 
problem with that.. you know how they hate competiton.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <15c.be25cf3.29ede8fa@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 20:59:44 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:


> > I have to disagree, I'm afraid.  Any company, no matter how large, that 
> > believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to 
> > disaster.
> 
> But that's what an insurance company does...
> 

No, insurance companies tend to insure themselves against risk as well. I 
believe there's even a well established branch of business that deals with it 
- can't remember the name though :(

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 20:59:44 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; I have to disagree, I'm afraid.&nbsp; Any company, no matter how large, that <BR>
&gt; believes it can absorb all its own risks is heading down the road to <BR>
&gt; disaster.<BR>
<BR>
But that's what an insurance company does...<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
No, insurance companies tend to insure themselves against risk as well. I believe there's even a well established branch of business that deals with it - can't remember the name though :(<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <158.c6ba94a.29ede9ff@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 21:13:08 GMT Daylight Time, 
ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:


> > It  has to be safe and readily available at all times.
> 
> Nah.  Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the
> resources and reputation of the company.

Which is harder if you the people you are borrowing from know that you have 
no way of spreading the risk.

> > compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a 
> spiral
> > -  we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet
> > all of  them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet
> > these costs.  Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have
> > previously paid  them, saving us in the long run, money.
> 
> Well, given that it's your fault, the insurance is likely to be reluctant 
> to
> pay anyway.

Fault is not always relevant from an insurance companies point of view. It 
may be stuck with representing you whether it likes it or not.

> > 
> > And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want
> > absorb  the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to
> > perform some  unplanned demolition on the local school district? 
> 
> Many real-world large companies do exactly that.
> 
Not the sensible ones,

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 21:13:08 GMT Daylight Time, ajackson@molly.iii.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; It&nbsp; has to be safe and readily available at all times.<BR>
<BR>
Nah.&nbsp; Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the<BR>
resources and reputation of the company.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Which is harder if you the people you are borrowing from know that you have no way of spreading the risk.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; compensation, so its easier to invest somewhere else. Now we're in a spiral<BR>
&gt; -&nbsp; we are worth less but our costs are still growing and we have to meet<BR>
&gt; all of&nbsp; them. If we were insured it would be our insurers who would meet<BR>
&gt; these costs.&nbsp; Perhaps their losses would outstrip the premiums we have<BR>
&gt; previously paid&nbsp; them, saving us in the long run, money.<BR>
<BR>
Well, given that it's your fault, the insurance is likely to be reluctant to<BR>
pay anyway.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Fault is not always relevant from an insurance companies point of view. It may be stuck with representing you whether it likes it or not.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; <BR>
&gt; And a single accident need not be trivial. Does a company really want<BR>
&gt; absorb&nbsp; the risk of one of its pilots going doolally-tap and deciding to<BR>
&gt; perform some&nbsp; unplanned demolition on the local school district? <BR>
<BR>
Many real-world large companies do exactly that.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
Not the sensible ones,<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:58:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:58:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
Message-ID: <103.13d0e078.29edea3d@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 21:33:55 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com 
writes:


> We could go on and discuss how reserves are handled, explain 
> the concept of the "book of business", and talk about 
> reinsurance.
> 
> IMTU I feel that ship insurance is handled much more like 
> Lloyd's (with individuals teaming up to take on risk) rather 
> than like the auto insurance model.  Starships seem so much 
> more risky than automobiles, and the payout on loss is so 
> high, that I can truly see it taking a form resembling 
> organized gambling (which is, after all, what Lloyd's is 
> running - the world's highest paying casino - hope you don't 
> lose).
> 

I like Lloyds - there's nothing more satisfying than watching the complacent 
rich get their come-uppance ;)

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 21:33:55 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">We could go on and discuss how reserves are handled, explain <BR>
the concept of the "book of business", and talk about <BR>
reinsurance.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU I feel that ship insurance is handled much more like <BR>
Lloyd's (with individuals teaming up to take on risk) rather <BR>
than like the auto insurance model.&nbsp; Starships seem so much <BR>
more risky than automobiles, and the payout on loss is so <BR>
high, that I can truly see it taking a form resembling <BR>
organized gambling (which is, after all, what Lloyd's is <BR>
running - the world's highest paying casino - hope you don't <BR>
lose).<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I like Lloyds - there's nothing more satisfying than watching the complacent rich get their come-uppance ;)<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 14:59:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:59:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com>

Anthony Jackson writes:
<Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would 
work
reasonably well against just about any weapon.>

Ok, what is the difference between sand and chaff?  I always that chaff was 
strips of foil cut to a particular length of the
wavelength of a radar, and the sand in a sandcaster used particles of the 
correct size to interact with the laser wavelength.  I thought they were 
the same process.

John T. Kwon writes:
<As for a particle beam, the amount of material is so
miniscule, and so thinly spread (the beam is probably
neutrons), that sand would be useless. These beams are also
regarded as being more effective at penetrating armor (from
the point of view of the Air Force) than a laser. Both
radiation damage and deep heating are expected to occur with
a particle beam weapon>

That makes sense. (disclaimer, I am not a physicist, nor do I play one on 
TV).  Now I wonder if an X-ray laser would functionally
equivelent to a neutral particle beam? (in game terms)

I remember that in CT that one of the subjects of Imperial Research 
Stations was suggested to be X-ray lasers.  I have read somewhere that we 
can make X-ray lasers now.  In my campaigns I told the players that they 
were restricted military technology,
with the same penalties as possessing nuclear weapons.  (you got the death 
penalty)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW!  I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <20020416.165610.-108551.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Congratulations!  The award is well deserved.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"


On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 07:23:41 -0400 Jeff Zeitlin
<editor@freelancetraveller.com> writes:
> I just got some email from "Xiombarg" (real name and email address
> protected for his privacy), indicating that he wants to make 
> Freelance
> Traveller the rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively
> flattering; when I started Freelance Traveller oh-so-many years ago, 
> I
> never dreamed that it could become as popular as it has - and now to 
> be
> _recognized_ by an industry publication is just too much for words.
> 
> Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who 
> has
> allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your 
> work
> more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As 
> long as
> you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; 
> people
> like you are too valuable to lose.
> 
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
> Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller 
> Resource
> http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
> http://www.freelancetraveller.com
> http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
> editor@freelancetraveller.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

                


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:01:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:01:31 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416064528.5AA08279CC@mail.travellercentral.com> <3CBC7F09.6050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CBC9112.90505@telocity.com>

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>> Not now days, five-thousand years from now.  I just don't see ship
>> skills as being nearly as financially valuable as some of you do.
>> They've been around a long, long time, and there are many, many
>> thousands (millions, even) of folks that have them IMTU. Besides, for
>> in-game reasons, I want PC's scraping for cash, I don't want them
>> living in luxury with large nest eggs, but each to their own.
>
>
>
> Eris' methods:
>
> PC's inherit fine, functioning starship. PC's overjoyed, one 
> particularly stupid one makes dumb DUMB comments about how easy it'll 
> be to compete with ship owners who have a mortgage to pay. (Gee I 
> wonder who?;-)
>
> Bad guys steal ship.
>
> Space Patroooool to the Rescuuue! <sound of inspirational music, 
> punctuated by large explosions>
>
> Space Patrol "Here. We caught the hijackers and recovered your ship. 
> Thank us!"
>
> PC's "But there are large holes in our ship where there used to be a 
> jump drive, a drive controller, and a safe in the ship's locker"
>
> SP: "Well they didn't surrender peacefully. Thank us and don't ask 
> questions."
>
> PC's notice that SP officer is wearing secret police uniform."Thank you"
>
> PC's go to bank and get large loan to get ship flying again.
>
> <scrape scrape> Hold up cardboard signs "Will carry stuff for credits" 
> just like all the other free traders...

Ah! Bruce has devined my methods...I will have to be more subtle when 
next I raid their treasury. <g>

Eris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:03:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:03:15 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <F37TW5k1Ed28kIN4MmX00001857@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.132856.6I9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
> In mail, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote
>
>>
>>Space is *big*. And they'll be visible the whole time.
>>
>>That's the problem. there's a whole lot of nothing, and even a small
>>ship stands out like a sore thumb.
>>
>
> So how does a starship of say, 400Dtons (ISTR 'Patrol Cruisers' were one 
> ship of choice for the discerning Ethically Challenged Merchant*) compare to 
> a fairly small asteroid?  Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in 
> near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near 
> misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a 
> single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?

We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.

> Is that a pirate out there, or a customs ship making sure you are behaving 
> yourself, or a sensor glitch, or an asteroid, or...

Asteroids aren't moving at hundreds of km/sec. And they aren't going to
be on intercept courses either. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:03:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:03:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20020416031009.2bda525e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20416.134013.8u0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Until you do the calculations, it's hard to get a feel for these
>> things. Most folks have no sense of *scale* once you get past small
>> buildings and the like.
>
> Thank you for hitting me with the "stupid" stick for the second time in
> the last days, Leonard  :-)

Not stupid. Just a bad case of "oops!".

Remember, you only embarassed yourself on the list. Think of all the
folks involved with Babylon 5 who made the ""million tons of spinning
metal" goof in the opening sequence (hint: a mass of *air* the size of
babylon 5 weighs more than a million tons :-)

And I'm rather suspicious of the masses David Weber gives for a lot of
the ships in the Honor Harrington stuff too.

Like I said, we don't have experience with this sort of thing so we
have no judgement for the numbers involved.

> I'll crawl back into my dark corner now.

Nah, if everyone who goofed did that who'd be posting? :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:04:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:04:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8e0f93f2f0d@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20416.134553.3z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>>todal forces are the same.
>
> A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the 
> size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity 
> in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal 
> gradient.

Actually, the tidal force varies *linearly* with the distance from the
center of mass of the body experiencing the tidal forces. Not *quite*
the same thing as varying with the size. 

As a good example, consider some folks in spacesuits tethered to a
ship. The forces they experience depend on the distance and direction
from the ship, not on the size of the ship.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:04:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:04:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> For Mercury (5.43), Venus (5.24) and Earth (5.52), yes.
> For Mars (3.93), any Jovian moon (some of which are considered "rocky", e.g.
> Io, at 3.53), and a few others, no.
> Personally, I'd reckon that density can vary considerably even for rocky
> worlds, say from 3.0 to nearly 7.8 (almost totally iron) or 8.5+ (almost
> totally nickel).

There are "clusters". And it's *really* unlikely that any sizable body
will have a density much above Mercury's. At least in a "normal"
system. The planets that form around supernova remnants are likely to
be very different.

>> So if there's any sort of safety factor built in to the "100 diameter"
>> rule, it'll work fine except in *really* oddball situations (say trying
>> to jump close to a *big* nickel-iron asteroid).
>
> So ... if I had a planet with an extremely large Ni-Fe core, and a higher
> mean density as a result, say towards 6.5 or 7.0, then the 100D rule would
> not be good enough. Another hazard for exploring uncharted systems, I guess.

Ain't gonna happen. The abundance of materials in the cloud of dust and
gas a system forms from means that anything with a substantial iron
core will have a lot more rocky material overlying it. 

The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.

>> The details *do* matter, because the forces at the *hull* of even a
>> small ship will *exceed* those from a planet at 100 diameters. That's a
>> *unavoidable*.
>
> Leonard, please don't emphasise words with asterisks. It just makes
> things harder to read and comes over patronising, even if that's not
> intended.

> *Try* *reading* *this* *sentence* *to* *see* *what* *I* *mean*.

I'm not going to quit indicating emphasis. And the alternatives are
asterisks or underlines and the asterisks are much easier to hit. 

Yes, it's harder to read a sentence where you individually emphasize
each word with them. But that's not what I'm doing.

As for patronizing, I'm not responsible for what you read into what I
write.

> Also, if we have to handwave away the tidal gradient due to the
> ship's hull, then I'd argue that the tidal gradient is not the
> principal factor in a misjump, no matter how well the figures fit.

Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
something that will be directly proportional to it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <OF7A3367D5.83EB7401-ON85256B9D.0057F13F@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBC9264.2050709@telocity.com>

William Lane wrote:

>OBTRAV:
>
>The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
>Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
>engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
>Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
>other.
>
>Captain asks "What are you doing?"
>
>New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
>works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
>
>Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P
>
Okay, Greg, how much you going to pay me not to pass *this* one along to 
Misha? <g>

The gang in the Reaver's Deep game just hired a Vargr engineer (played 
by Misha). Her first action aboard the ship was to hang from an overhead 
pipe with her head in the jump drive while she "checked it out."  I'll 
let Captain Jason (Greg) tell you what happened next...<g>

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
 <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416161824.01e88790@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:22 PM 4/16/2002, Texas Redshift wrote:
>At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
>Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
>judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?  Does the Imperium have a civil 
>court and what jurisdiction does it assert? Is jury trial available?  Are 
>judges elected? Appointed?

All of the following should be prefixed with the comment that I'm referring 
to My Traveller Universe, and so this may not hold for anyone else.  I 
don't know what the Canon has to say on the matter; while a lot has been 
written about the various Traveller militaries, I don't think anyone has 
ever written a supplement about lawyers and lawsuits in the Imperium.  ;-)

First of all, following a general legal principle IMTU, if the parties in 
any sort of legal action are located on the same world, then the legal 
action is resolved using that world's laws, judicial system, and 
practices.  Member worlds can basically do anything that they would like in 
this arena, subject to some basic guidelines (recognition of Imperial 
currency, validity of Imperial contracts, laws, charters, etc.) that worlds 
agree to implement as a condition of membership in the Imperium.  Outside 
of those guidelines, member worlds can (and do) have just about any sort of 
legal system, from the King's justice dispensed at sword-point to a complex 
web of liability, contract, and insurance laws that makes the 21st-century 
USA look non-litigious.

Only when the issue involves more than one world does Imperial law 
apply.  The Imperium has basic contract and liability law, written (as are 
most Imperial laws) primarily for the benefit of interstellar trade, 
commerce (and therefore primarily of benefit to business that operate on an 
interstellar scale).  IMTU, Imperial (interstellar) society is not very 
litigious - partially due to the nature of the society (which prefers an 
out-of-court settlement of some type), and partially due to the high cost 
of bringing an interstellar suit.  IMTU the Imperium has both civil and 
criminal courts, both administered by the nobility.  In general, the case 
is heard in the plaintiff's venue.

If they press onward, the case is heard by a judge (jury trials are not 
available).  In some cases, the judge is the appropriate noble in person; 
but for the most part, judges are appointed by the noble to act in his or 
her stead.  Judges serve at the noble's convenience, and can be replaced by 
him or her at any time (but usually are not, and serve until they 
retire).  Appeals are possible up the chain of fealty (all the way to the 
Emperor, at least in theory).  In the case where a judge is appointed, an 
appeal directly to the noble who appointed him or her is also possible.  In 
all cases, appeals are unlikely to succeed.  Jury trials are not available.

Most nobles tend to view cases that actually come before them with a bit of 
prejudice "which of the parties is being stubborn and unwilling to settle 
out of court?"  The reputations of the lawyers representing the parties, 
and (particularly where large corporations are involved) the reputations of 
the parties themselves often has a large influence on the outcome of the 
trial:  "Bernard Hault-Wugga?  Aren't you Baron Wishaggga's son?  OK, 
Bernie, exactly how has SuSAG wronged your client?  They did what?  Oh, of 
course; how dreadful.  MCr 3 in putative damages sounds good.  See you at 
the Solar Yacht Race next week?  Good, tell you father hello from me."  (an 
extreme example, but no doubt it happens).

For role-playing purposes, this lets the referee be as arbitrary as needed 
(and also gives the players incentive to find some other way - any other 
way - of settling differences).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:09:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:09:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018991242.5758.ajackson@ping>

Dale Gyles writes:
> Anthony Jackson writes:
> <Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would 
> work
> reasonably well against just about any weapon.>
> 
> Ok, what is the difference between sand and chaff?

The purpose of chaff is obscuring sensors.  The purpose of sand, as described
in Traveller, is stopping weapons fire.

>  I always that chaff was
>  strips of foil cut to a particular length of the
> wavelength of a radar, and the sand in a sandcaster used particles of the 
> correct size to interact with the laser wavelength.  I thought they were 
> the same process.

Well, there's a fairly significant difference, in that radar does not generally
have the power to burn through an inch of steel.
> 
> That makes sense. (disclaimer, I am not a physicist, nor do I play one on 
> TV).  Now I wonder if an X-ray laser would functionally
> equivelent to a neutral particle beam? (in game terms)

No, though a gamma ray laser would be fairly similar (somewhat different
penetration).
> 
> I remember that in CT that one of the subjects of Imperial Research 
> Stations was suggested to be X-ray lasers.  I have read somewhere that we 
> can make X-ray lasers now.  In my campaigns I told the players that they 
> were restricted military technology,
> with the same penalties as possessing nuclear weapons.  (you got the death 
> penalty)

I seem to recall something about X-ray lasers being developed, but they're not
exactly weapons-grade.  The old SDI people talked about bomb-pumped X-ray
lasers, a mechanism which AFAIK has never been successfully demonstrated, not
that this prevent people from using it in SF.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:02:50 +1000, Timothy Little
> <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:
>
>>JR Holmes wrote:
>>> If I'm incorrect about a body being unable to exert a tidal force
>>> upon itself
>>
>>You are.  This is very important in determining Roche's limit, for
>>example.
>
> I remain unconvinced in this regard.  "Roche's Limit is the distance
> from a planet inside which a satellite will be torn apart by tidal
> forces." (from http://www.cvc.org/astronomy/roche_limit.htm) or
> "Roche's Limit, which is the distance from a planet at which the
> planet's tidal force on a satellite (tending to stretch apart) is
> equal to the satellite's self-gravity (tending to hold it together)."
> (from http://utrao.as.utexas.edu/ast301/log/log22.html)
>
> As per the above, Roche's Limit is where these tidal forces (a
> tensional force) equal the compressional forces of an object's own
> gravity.  But this is in regard to the tidal forces exerted _with
> regard to another body_.  Without the other body, no tidal force.
>
> It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In another
> of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional and
> compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive me if
> I am interpreting you incorrectly).  I believe you are in error in
> this regard.  As per the above, the compressional forces are due to
> the object's self-gravity and only the tensional forces are due to the
> influence of another body and therefore are tidal forces.

No. Tidal forces are *away* from the center of the satellite along the
line joining it to the primary (ie the side closest to the primary is
pulled towards the primary, and the side opposite the primary is pulled
*away* from the primary. 

But the forces in the plane perpendicular to that line are *towards*
the center of the satellite. 

so if you were orbiting close to a neutron star in a space suit, your
feet would be pulled towards the star, your head would be pulled away
from it and your waist would be getting squeezed. 

Look at it like this. If you are orbiting, the center of your body is
moving at the right speed in the right direction. It's in freefall. 

But a point farther from the primary, if left to itself would be
traveling in a *different* orbit. With a different velocity. Ditto for
points closer to the primary, and for point "ahead" or "behind" the
center. And the same foes for point to the "left" and "right" of the
center.

The points closer to and farther from the primary would be moving *away*
from the center if they weren't attached. The ones ahead, behind and to
the sides would be moving *closer* to the center.

And that's essentially where the forces come from. Self gravity of the
body has nothing to do with it, and, in fact for a body that has to
worry about the Roche Limit, the forces *far* exceed its self gravity.

Get a copy of Dr. Robert Forward's book "Indistinguishable from Magic".
It's got a chapter on tidal forces, complete with diagrams and formulas.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <158.c6ba94a.29ede9ff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018991982.113.ajackson@ping>

CHam628781@aol.com writes:
> > Nah.  Acquiring the cash is usually handled with a loan, backed by the
> > resources and reputation of the company.
> 
> Which is harder if you the people you are borrowing from know that you have
>  no way of spreading the risk.

Right, but the point is you don't need to have _ready_ cash.  You just need
assets which can be used to back a loan.
> 
> Fault is not always relevant from an insurance companies point of view. It 
> may be stuck with representing you whether it likes it or not.

Depends on how the insurance contract was written.

> > Many real-world large companies do exactly that.
> > 
> Not the sensible ones,

Many real-world companies are only insured for extremely large losses; you just
set the deductible high enough that it absorbs the vast majority of problems
directly.  Beyond a certain point, it's better for a company to risk going
bankrupt due to a major problem than pay out huge premiums (arguably,
bankruptcy law is itself a form of insurance).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:26:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:26:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Bruce Johnson asks
> 
>>How long did your party survive before the local residents 
>>rounded you  up and hung you?
>>
> 
> That was the problem.  They had friends.  We got back to 
> town, and they heard about it.  Later that day, when we were 
> strolling into the front foyer of the guest house were were 
> staying at, three men stepped into the room and opened up on 
> us with submachineguns.  Of the six people in our party, one 
> survived.  The three attackers died, but the locals were 
> steamed enough to shoot the survivor after hearing his tale.

I suspect the locals were *more* steamed about the firefights going on 
in public spaces. I'd wager that the 3 surviving members of that guys 
friends were fined heavily for the damage.

> It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
> principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
> friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
> received.

The real key to this is to understand what a LL0 world is like.

Probably quite polite and formal, since it's likely heavily armed...and 
the local citizenry is entirely likely to feel that maintaining public 
order is incumbent on all members of society, as well as enforcement, 
since LL0 worlds tend also to be low GOV worlds too.

A good one to spring on a bunch of unsuspecting PC's...land them 
someplace they're expecting to be Dodge City, and discover that it's 
anything but, that their 'uncivilized' behavior is quickly, but firmly 
corrected...permanently, if necessary...think a Heinleinian world of 
self-reliant, armed and polite strangers...
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBC9A4C.4000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

William Lane wrote:

> 
> Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
> everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
> info.

That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
XML to Cobol and back...

oBTRav> Captain finds engineer hip deep in the Jump drive controller 
with an exceptionally old-looking piece of hardware in his hands.

Captain: "Good lord, Scottie! That's a jump *tape* reader! What is that 
antique doing on my jump drive??"

Engineer: "Well Captain, we cannae find the right components to rrepair 
the drive controller. Urgvark" he points to a crazed looking Vargr 
assistant engineer, "...found this in a antique shop. We're tying it 
into the saircuit right now."

C: "But how will we control it? I haven't seen a jump tape in my life 
that wasn't in a museum!"

E:"Well Captain, I have a writing head from a holocorder here, we can 
connect it to the main computer, and have it translate the control 
instructions from the astrogation program to the correct patterns that a 
jump tape would have. It should work, in theory, sah. " Shouts "OK 
Urgvark! Give me some power..."

<SNAP> <Pop fsssssshhhhhh> "Turn it off! Turn it off!"

E: Through the smoke..."Ahh captain, we're going ta need some morrre 
time..."

C: weeps.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018993271.7515.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
> The real key to this is to understand what a LL0 world is like.
> 
> Probably quite polite and formal, since it's likely heavily armed...and 
> the local citizenry is entirely likely to feel that maintaining public 
> order is incumbent on all members of society, as well as enforcement, 
> since LL0 worlds tend also to be low GOV worlds too.

Well, the majority of LL0 worlds are very lightly populated as well, and quite
likely don't have much of anything recognizeable as 'public order' -- just some
isolated people.  Of course, then you have worlds like Efate.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:32 PM +1000 4/16/02, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
>(of radiation effects on fertility)
>>  Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in
>>  men, if you prefer)?
>
>Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
>the testis to ionising radiation.

Though it will need to be more pentrating since the ovaries are 
deeper in the body so it will depend on the kind of radiation? 
(Though it maybe that this is getting into to much details for rpgs 
that usualy feature "radiation").

>
>Larsen Whipsnade wrote :-
>>  GURPS, in Compendium II, handles this in the following manner.
>>  If a female has a lifetime dose of 250 rads, her offspring, and
>>  any problems they may have, are entirely at the GM's discretion.
>There probably won't be any offspring (permanent sterility in 75%).
>
>>  Realistic?  Yes.
>Nah, in GURPS it's usually an excuse for the GM to introduce Weird
>Mutant Powers (TM) <g>

I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the 
fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018978883.2225.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1018978883.2225.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330108b8e24c8654f3@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:41 AM -0700 4/16/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Texas Redshift writes:
>>  As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
>>  something:
>>
>>  At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
>>  Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
>>  judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
>
>Depends on the world.  There are canon references to 'government of men, not
>laws', which implies on the interstellar level it's not litigous per se, and
>annoying the local judge with frivolous suits is probably a poor idea.

That is consistent with a world where corporations conduct morally 
challenged acts without being continuously in court (to, at one 
extreme, being able to conduct trade wars on each other).

Also, if megacorps are as powerful as they are depicted, then should 
be able to avoid a situations where it is "easy" to sue them.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <20416.132856.6I9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.132856.6I9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330109b8e24d6388f8@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:28 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in
>  > near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near
>>  misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a
>>  single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?
>
>We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
>outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.

We are looking.  There is a program underway to catalog Earth 
crossing asteroids....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 15:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 14:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134553.3z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.134553.3z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p0433010ab8e24dae9b06@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:45 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>>>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>>>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>>>todal forces are the same.
>>
>>  A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the
>>  size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity
>>  in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal
>>  gradient.
>
>Actually, the tidal force varies *linearly* with the distance from the
>center of mass of the body experiencing the tidal forces. Not *quite*
>the same thing as varying with the size.

The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also 
true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to 
another will depend on how far apart they are.

>
>As a good example, consider some folks in spacesuits tethered to a
>ship. The forces they experience depend on the distance and direction
>from the ship, not on the size of the ship.

True.  Though the difference in force between the guy in the space 
suit different parts of the ship will depend on the size of the ship.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Self-Insurance
In-Reply-To: <15c.be25cf3.29ede8fa@aol.com>; from CHam628781@aol.com on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 04:52:10PM -0400
References: <15c.be25cf3.29ede8fa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020416155914.C13552@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 04:52:10PM -0400, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> 
> No, insurance companies tend to insure themselves against risk as well.

Yeah--from other insurance companies.  But there's no magic there: a
company as large as that collection of insurance companies can insure
itself.

And yes, if enough bad things happen at once the insurance system
would fail, just as a company would fail if it self-insured.

Generally, if you can afford it, self-insurance makes much more sense.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the people of
the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own
arms.                            --Samuel Adams, brewer and patriot

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020416081241.C25846@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.141048.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Both methane and ammonia will burn with oxygen. So you crack some water
>> (thermally or via electrolysis) and use the oxygen to burn the methane
>> and ammonia to N2, H20 & CO2. You condense the H20 and crack it to get
>> back the oxygen. The CO2 and N2 get either discrard or fed into the
>> life support system's atomosphere reprocessing section. 
>
> I don't see what I get from this.
>
> IMTU, there is only a small tank capable of holding LHyd with all the
> associated cryogenic systems, ultralow temperature pumps and such
> expensive stuff.  It primarily feeds the jump drive when entering
> jump.  The rest of the fuel space is designed to hold water which I
> can slowly refine using a fuel processor during jump.

If you are tanking from a body that has ammonia and/or methane in
addition to the water, you can shovel "ice" (or pump liquid
ammonia/methane) into a holding tank. It's not that hard to seperate
the methane, ammonia and water. And you'd need to be able to do that to
refuel from the colder iceballs anyway.

In the OTU, the tankage is for liquid hydrogen. If you are grabbing
water or whatever to "wilderness refuel" you have to extract and
liquefy the hydrogen before storing it in the tanks.

And BTW, you have to do more than just *cool* the hydrogen to get
liquid hydrogen. There are two forms of the hydrogen molecule. One has
the spins of the atoms parallel, the other has them opposing. 

One form is slightly more energetic than the other and left to itself,
will spontaneously convert to the lower energy form, releasing heat.
This takes place slowly. 

Unfortunately, it also releases enough heat to boil LH2! So you have to
use special catlysts to ensure that all the hydrogen is converted to
the low energy form before you put it in the tanks. Otherwise, the
spontaneous conversion will boil the tanks dry in a few hours. 

NASA had great fun with this problem until they found the catalysts
(fairly cheap, but they do add another step to the process of making
fuel). 

Because of this, converting water to LH2 on the fly isn't going to work
for stuff like the jump drive. You need the required fuel stored *as*
LH2 before you start.

> So the limit on how much fuel I can hold is how much oxygen is
> available to bind the hydrogen into water for my large (and cheap)
> tanks.  Discarding CO2 from burning methane is hence worse than just
> throwing away the methane.  I might extract some nitrogen from the
> ammonia to replenish any atmosphere losses, but that's about it.

No, because you aren't getting *hydrogen* when you refuel from an
iceball, just when you refuel by scooping a gas giant. And in that
case, you'll need a *lot* of oxygen, and need it fast. Check out how
much space *8* tons (mass) of liquid oxygen takes up. Because you'll
need 8 tons of oxygen for every ton of hydrogen. Remember, it takes
*nine* tons of water to produce *one* ton of hydrogen. And you'll have
to have to have *seperate* tanks for the 9 tons of water, the 8 tons of
LOX, and the 1 ton of LH2.

Storing *just* LH2 is a *lot* simpler.

When you refuel from an iceball you are getting one of the following:

Water
Water and ammonia
Water, ammonia and methane

So, as I said, you extract the oxygen from the water and store the
hydrogen.

You then use the extracted oxygen to convert the ammonia into
nitrogen and water. You keep as much of the nitrogen as you want, and
discard the rest. The water gets converted to LH2 and oxygen (ie you
*recover* the oxygen you extracted from the water you "mined").

Next, you use the oxygen (still not touching your original oxygen
supplies on board the ship) to convert the methane to CO2 and water.
The water gets processed as before, giving hydogen and oxygen.

You can either discard the CO2, *or* you can feed it thru the section
of your life support system that cracks CO2 into carbon and oxygen. And
yes, given a fusion power plant, as well as cryogenic gear, this is a
reasonable way of dealing with CO2 on board a ship. 

Matter of fact, odds are that part of the "filters" in the life support
system ammount to condensing excess water out of the air (there will
*always* be excess water as we produce it from the hydrogen in our food
and the oxygen we breathe). 

Next, the air will be flash heated (with or without a catalyst) to burn
all organic gases. Finally, a catalyst will be used to break down any
nitrogen oxides formed by the flash heating, and the O2 and N2 will be
put back in circulation, while the CO2 will be cracked into carbon and
oxygen. And actual chemical filters will deal with any remaining
contaminants (traces of stuff like chlorine & sulfur compounds, etc)

It's possible that smaller ships (and auxilluary craft) will just use
chemical filters to extract water vapor, CO2, and other contaminants).
LiOH to extract CO2, Various other things to extract water vapor, and
activated charcoal to get (most) of the other trace gases. 

But those will need changing and require "recharging" (basicly you heat
them to drive off the water/CO2/whatever).

Anyway, ships will be able to deal with converting CO2 to carbon and
oxygen. Getting rid of the carbon from processing a lot of methane will
be a major pain though. Some poor crewbeing will probably have to
either "shovel" what amounts to soot out of the gear and haul it to an
airlock to dump, or maybe (if you process stuff a bit differently) chop
slabs of graphite out of the processor. And, again dump them.

So methane would be something you might *not* want to process. But
there will be times when it's worth the hassle. 

Oh yeah, actually, the odds are you'd seperate the methane *first*,
simply because it will be the first component of the mix to turn into a
gas.

         melts   boils
         ------  ------
methane	 -182.4  -161.5
ammonia   -77.4   -33.3
water       0     100

So, as you heat the mix, first the methane liquefies, then it
vaporizes. You can discard it, or use oxygen to process it. Or, if you
do this a lit, you might have gear set up to directly crack the methane
into hydogen and carbon.

Next the ammonia liquefies and then vaporizes. And then when the water
melts, it would get dissolved in the water (great if you are
electrolyzing water, not so great otherwise). 

Again, you can either "burn" the ammonia with oxygen (I use quotes
because there are catalysts that'll make it happen at much lower temps)
or you might be equiped to "crack" it into nitrogen and hydrogen.
Cracking won't work nearly as well though, since both components are
gasses. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:08:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:08:41 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020416155310.3125.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20416.150551.5I5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> ObTrav:  There is a (Star Trek created?) stereotype of
> the engineer who can fix anything but no one can tell
> how he does it.  What other stereotypes are common in
> your games?

The "engineer as wizard" stereotype has existed *at least* as long as
widespread use of steam engines. And some would argue it goes back to
the old seige engineers of medieval and Roman times.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:09:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:09:19 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020416075852.009ef0e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20416.150857.9F1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 02:16 PM 4/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>on 4/15/02 10:58 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>>
>> > In the future, would it not be possible to step aboard your
>> > starship, and go to the bridge, consult a catalog of local
>> > stars, click on one, and tell the computer to "make it so"?
>>
>>Shortly after this is when technology becomes magic.  Right when the user no
>>longer understands what's going on behind the 'curtain'.
>
> Hell, for me that's today!  I can use my comp[uter, but for all I know, 
> this beige box is actually home to a tribe of magic pixes.

(uh-oh, he's beginning to catch on! :-)

> I still find it amazing and rather magical that this little bit of dreck 
> will be read by people on the other side of the planet (hi Jens and Hans!) 
> I sort of understand that it will be shuffled around by a lot of computers 
> that do that sort of thing, but beyond that?  Nothing.

It's actually *not* all that hard to understand. Really. But it
involves paying more attention to *details* than most folks care to. 

> "Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
>   with sex." - Fry, Futurama

Hmm. Must be looking at the wrong sites. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <OF7A3367D5.83EB7401-ON85256B9D.0057F13F@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <20416.151127.3N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> OBTRAV:
>
> The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
> Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
> engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
> Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
> other.
>
> Captain asks "What are you doing?"
>
> New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
> works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
>
> Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P

An *intelligent* captain will just chalk it up to "personal quirks" as
long as the job gets done. And if things seem to be working better than
he'd expect, he may wind up asking the engineer for more info about
Jabobo. <g>

If it works, don't knock it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>
References: <200204150055.RAA20374@molly.iii.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCAEAJDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <7gkkbuo40vvj6674ci65lptup7d0dpasn1@4ax.com> <20020415150250.A23807@freeman.little-possums.net> <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020417081359.A28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> "Roche's Limit, which is the distance from a planet at which the
> planet's tidal force on a satellite (tending to stretch apart) is
> equal to the satellite's self-gravity (tending to hold it together)."
> (from http://utrao.as.utexas.edu/ast301/log/log22.html)

Anaother way to say the same thing is "where the net tidal gradient
becomes tensional in at least one direction".  Self-gravity *is* a
tidal force.


> As per the above, Roche's Limit is where these tidal forces (a
> tensional force) equal the compressional forces of an object's own
> gravity.

The compressional forces of an object's own gravity *are* tidal
gradients.  Roche's limit is where the sum of the external and
internal tides cancel (in one direction) for a body of given
composition.


> It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In
> another of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional
> and compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive
> me if I am interpreting you incorrectly).

Yes.  Consider a near-massless spaceship somewhere near the Earth,
with bow pointing directly outward from it.  A point on the bow is a
bit further from the Earth than the center, so the gravitational
attraction toward Earth's center is weaker.  Likewise, the
gravitational attraction is stronger at the stern.  This is the
tensional aspect of the tidal gradient.

Now consider points on the port and starboard.  Both feel the same
magnitude of gravitational acceleration, but the *direction* is
different.  The vector difference between the two results in an inward
(compressional) force.  Likewise for the "top" and "bottom" of the
ship.

So the external tides exert a compression force as well as a tensional
one.


Now consider a spacecraft with significant density.  In this case, the
same argument applies to give a tensional gradient (due to the Earth),
but now you have to add the self-gravity.  The bow experiences a weak
Earthward acceleration due to self-gravity, and the stern experiences
an outward force.  This sums with the Earth's tidal force to give a
result that could be either tensional or compressional, depending on
how close to Earth the starship is and on what it's density is.
(Compressional far from the Earth, possibly tensional closer in).

The top and bottom of the ship are subject to a sum of compressional
forces alone.


The actual mathematics is much simpler in many regards than the
example, but the result is the same.  The tidal gradient at any given
point is expressed as a matrix, with trace equal to the density at the
point in question.  The eigenvalues and eigenvectors of the matrix
tell you the magnitude and directions of the forces due to the
gradient.  Even a pebble in otherwise completely empty space has tidal
gradients inside and out, and those gradients are not appreciably
weaker than the tidal gradients around and within the Moon.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com> <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020417082001.B28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.

Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
a nitpick.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3cbf94aa.16351970@post.demon.co.uk>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

>That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
>wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
>convincing opposing argument:-)

What if you're charged by n+1 people with pointy sticks, where n is
the number of bullets you're carrying?

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:34:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3CBC7D4F.7020102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200204161741.EEV03115@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416183650.00b8f070@urbin.net>

At 12:36 PM 4/16/02 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>John T. Kwon wrote:
>>I got out of the car with the others, and asked the other driver if he 
>>had insurance.  He said, "No."  So I said to my friends, "I think we 
>>should wait for the police."  They laughed and said, "Hey stupid, there 
>>are no police."
>>So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the occupants of the 
>>other car without warning.  Then we went through their pockets for loose 
>>change.
>How long did your party survive before the local residents rounded you up 
>and hung you?

That's why he should have checked for witnesses first.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:35:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:35:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>

Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:

>>Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =3D20
>
>Shouldnt the hull code be Z? I though Y was for 1,000,000 to=20
>1,999,999. Z was for anything above that.=20

Y is for 1,000,000 to "the next stated level" - but there isn't one,
so I'm assuming it's just "over a million tons".  Z is "Reserved".

>>MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
>Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
>Architects fees? Anyone?

Standard cost.  If you *really* want to start mass-producing these
things, you scare me ;-)

I didn't include the architect's fees, but they'd be TCr 376,770.  The
kind of contract every naval architect dreams of.

Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:39:03 2002
Subject: Engineer Voodoo (was: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?)
References: <20416.151127.3N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CBCA7CB.11BDF34@premier.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > OBTRAV:
> >
> > The Ship is heading for the Jump Limit. the captain goes back to
> > Engineering to see how the new Engineer is doing .as he steps into
> > engineering the lights are all off and the Engineer is bowed down before a
> > Candle Lit Voo Doo alter with a Chicken in one hand and a knife in the
> > other.
> >
> > Captain asks "What are you doing?"
> >
> > New Engineer says "Praying to Jabobo to ensure the magic of the jump drive
> > works and to ensure the fruitfulness of our loins"
> >
> > Captain starts wondering about the engineers resume 8P
> 
> An *intelligent* captain will just chalk it up to "personal quirks" as
> long as the job gets done. And if things seem to be working better than
> he'd expect, he may wind up asking the engineer for more info about
> Jabobo. <g>

Actually, given that "Voodoo is an animist faith. That is, objects and
natural phenomena are believed to possess holy significance, to possess
a soul [*]," this seems a not-unreasonable belief system for an engineer
to have, assuming that additional syncretism has added technology to the
Voodoo gumbo.

Imagine if the engineer's version of Voodoo included the Evangelicals'
drive to proselytize:

"Have you accepted Jabobo as your personal Loa?" ;-)

[*] Quoted from the following Web site:

http://www.swagga.com/voodoo.htm

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3cbf94aa.16351970@post.demon.co.uk>; from tml@stempest.demon.co.uk on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:20:42PM +0000
References: <20020415233612.96605.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net> <3cbf94aa.16351970@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020416164940.A14019@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:20:42PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> 
> >That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
> >wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
> >convincing opposing argument:-)
> 
> What if you're charged by n+1 people with pointy sticks, where n is
> the number of bullets you're carrying?

That's why the steel.  And if the number of people involved >> n/2,
then I'm probably going to be running anyway:-)

Of course, all this is silly because I've never been attacked and
don't typically engage in activities which increase my risk of being
attacked.  I'm a rather quiet sort.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20416.141048.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020416081241.C25846@freeman.little-possums.net> <20416.141048.8t2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> And BTW, you have to do more than just *cool* the hydrogen to get
> liquid hydrogen. There are two forms of the hydrogen molecule. One has
> the spins of the atoms parallel, the other has them opposing. 

I'm quite aware of that.  I'm also aware of various maethods for
dealing with it at *our* tech level, let alone TL10.


> Because of this, converting water to LH2 on the fly isn't going to
> work for stuff like the jump drive.

That's why I said that there is an auxiliary fuel tank for the jump
drive.  Besides, does it say anywhere that the jump drive actually
needs *liquid* hydrogen, or is that just how it is stored prior to
use?

IMTU, it needs pure hydrogen.  The physical form is preferably ionised
at a temperature of a few hundred thousand degrees, but it needs a
*lot*, *fast*.  It's a bit hard to store tonnes of 100+ kK plasma for
any length of time, and LH2 is a nice compact way to hold pure
hydrogen ready for injection.


> You need the required fuel stored *as* LH2 before you start.

Even if this was true, that's exactly what the canonical "fuel
processor" does.  It converts impure hydrogen and hydrogen compounds
(such as water) into LH2.  It even gives a rate at which it produces
the stuff.  Do you exclude fuel processors from your Traveller
universe?  That's what it sounds like.


> Check out how much space *8* tons (mass) of liquid oxygen takes up.

I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?

When I scoop ice from an iceball, I get lots of hydrogen in the form
of water.  Water is a more compact way to store hydrogen than LH2.  So
I *keep* the water.  I run the ammonia, methane, or some more water
through the fuel processor to fill up the smaller LH2 tanks (possibly
extracting some nitrogen for life support), throw away all the
methane, and either keep or throw away the ammonia.


> And you'll have to have to have *seperate* tanks for the 9 tons of
> water, the 8 tons of LOX, and the 1 ton of LH2.

No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.

The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.


> Oh yeah, actually, the odds are you'd seperate the methane *first*,
> simply because it will be the first component of the mix to turn
> into a gas.

Yep, mainly so I can get rid of it before putting it in the tanks at
all.  Ammonia I can deal with later, since I don't need highly
expensive long-term cryogenic tanks to hold ammonia solution.  I can
separate it later if I want.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Refining Fuel
Message-ID: <200204162252.EFF02983@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ok, so can I put solid rock in the refiner?

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%
7B1F54AEED-A34B-411B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com> <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020417085805.D28612@freeman.little-possums.net>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Of course :)

It varies with which rules, time period, and dataset you use, but my
figures are on the order of 100 PCr/year.  Never seen a 'P' prefix
used before?  10^15, in case anyone was wondering ;)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 16:59:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr 16 15:59:38 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
In-Reply-To: <20020416190105.CB76627A2E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020416155253.00a4d980@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:38:41 -0400, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

>Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from
>the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
>again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up
>during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and
>said, "Behold, Our God!".

"Glory be to the Bomb, and to the Holy Fallout, as it was in the Beginning."

Put me down as another half-kill.  (I rarely drink at the keyboard.  Not 
while reading THIS list, anyway.)

It's sure nice to find out what sort of people were guarding our nuclear 
deterrent, back in the bad old days.



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:01:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:01:09 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/16/02 3:50 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
> over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
> LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
> unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
> paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.
> 
> The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
> volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
> water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
> upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.
> 

Just curious, but what about storing H2 as hydrides?  Don't you get a higher
density?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:06:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:06:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Damn mind rapers
Message-ID: <20020416230522.61559.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

<Arlin J. Schofield- OC>
P2GM - Hey John, what is the general level of public
acceptance of psi's. I'm sure the military characters
who have been in action against the zho's (like Arlin)
wont be to comfartable with a psi around. I think
unless the public don't mind psi's that those
discussing them should at least try to be quiet ;)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <200204161837.EEX02352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.155109.2O0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The spot size for the projected SBL is around a foot in 
> diameter. The US Air Force is assuming that missiles will be 
> painted or coated to optimize reflectivity, and they also 
> anticipate that the missiles will spin to reduce the 
> effectiveness of the laser.  "Sand" or some sort of 
> particulate matter that interferes with the operation of the 
> beam, would have to be held in close proximity to the ship.  
> The beam has such a small spot size, that to effectively 
> maintain a density of sand which would reduce the 
> effectiveness of the beam means that you cannot allow it to 
> disperse.  There are also plasmas that can be formed that 
> might increase the reflectivity of the ship itself at the 
> expense of increasing the ship''s signature.

Check for old discussions of how sand probably works.

A summary is:

the particles are spheres, and highly refactive at laser wavelengths.
Thus a portion of the beam will be refelected back at the source
(helping to blind sensors) before absorbed beam energy can disrupt the
particle. And the portion of the energy that is transmitted is
defocused. 

The particles take a fair amount of energy to melt. While molten they
continue to retro-reflect part of the beam and disperse the rest.

They take even more energy to vaporize and form a plasma easily. The
plasma is opaque to laser energy and absorbs even *more* of the beam
energy.

So yet get some sensor blinding for free, and the plasma generation
makes the required sand density much lower than would otherwise be
required. 

This would also make for nice visual effects as beams hit clouds of sand.

> The main way that the SBL intends to defeat reflective 
> coatings, spinning, heavier construction, ablative coatings, 
> and other countermeasures is to scale up the power.  In the 
> case of missiles, they give good arguments as to why the 
> countermeasures are, within an ability to hold the beam on 
> target for four seconds, ineffective.  That is, with current 
> tech, the coatings and spinning are already factored into the 
> laser's design.  

Well, in space, outside of low orbit, stuff like sand and "smoke" tend
to be rather more effective, because they don't get left behind. 

They don't make it impossible to zap the target, just harder.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:08:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:08:35 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020415213116.B11001@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20416.152426.1u5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 09:36:12AM +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
>> 
>> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
>> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's going
>> to see is a cloud of dust ;)
>
> Unless he's the faster...
>
> That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy stick all he
> wants.  But my lead and steel can, I feel, come up with quite a
> convincing opposing argument:-)

Perhaps you've heard the story about two hikers confronted by a bear.
One starts running and the oother follows. The second gasps why "why
are you running, the bear can outrun us"

The first replies "I don't need to outriun *him*. Just *you*!"

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:09:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:09:14 2002
Subject: [TML] CT/Book 5 question
In-Reply-To: <200204160206.EDP04153@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.152658.1R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> OK.  Actually a Book 5 question.  Ship has partial 
> streamlining. Under the rules, it can do gas giant 
> refueling.  If it can move through an upper atmosphere like 
> that (presumably at some velocity - after all, we don't want 
> to spiral in), can you land such a ship on a world with a 
> standard atmosphere?

As I recall, partial streamlining does allow landing on such a world.

> How does an air/raft do it?  1-G acceleration.  You're riding 
> in a vehicle about the size of a HMMWV with the top down.

> Feel that wind in your hair...

Not necessarily. It can simply climb vertically (and slowly) until it
is out of the atmosphere. Then it can accerlerate until it reaches
orbital *velocity. 

Remember, it's *much* easier to reach orbital *altitude* than orbital
velocity. That's the principle behind several weapons for taking out
low altitude satellites. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:09:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:09:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.153558.2c9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
> something:
>
> At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
> Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
> judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
>
> Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
> Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?
>
> What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?

I don't think canon covers it. But given some of the things that canon
sources have going on, I suspect that "frivilous" lawsuits are
discouraged in some manner. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:11:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:11:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417085805.D28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018998647.1051.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?
> 
> Of course :)
> 
> It varies with which rules, time period, and dataset you use, but my
> figures are on the order of 100 PCr/year.  Never seen a 'P' prefix
> used before?  10^15, in case anyone was wondering ;)

Hm...my figure seems to be at 103PCr/year, which is well within the margin of
error.  Of course, there's a fairly significant problem with the old Atlas of
the Imperium data -- there's only around 9,000 imperial worlds, not the 11,000
there's supposed to be.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018998784.5627.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
> over

Which is, based on the existence of drop tanks, equal to the total fuel
requirement of jump.  Water tanks are mostly useful for jumping _twice_.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:14:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:14:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Indistinguishable from Magic
In-Reply-To: <20020416190105.CB76627A2E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020416160033.00a50b10@mailhost.efn.org>

(was: How many credits is that?)

For a while now, I've taken Clarke's Law to apply all the way back to the 
first simple machines.  To someone who's never seen one before, even a 
lever is magical:  you push DOWN, and a much heavier thing on the other end 
goes UP, easily.  Thus, any technology that exceeds the capabilities of the 
unaided human body (strength, sight, speed, etc) is "magic."

It can even be argued that knowing (or thinking one knows) how something 
works does not make it less magic.  Surely the hypothetical medieval wizard 
would know as much about the alchemical and astrological correspondences, 
sacred geometry, the names of angels, and other important data about his 
profession as a telecom engineer does about phones and networks and 
switches.  And each would be equally convinced the other was practicing 
black witchcraft.

And I note that people still leave out tributes to faeries - only now they 
call them gremlins or Greys, to name but two of the new forms.

--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:16:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:16:55 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020416231354.82331.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
> Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's
going
> to see is a cloud of dust ;)

What, because you have dust in your veins instead of
blood?  ;-)
END QUOTE

No, because I am a vampire from buffy:the vampire
slayer ;P

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020416231641.82811.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Unless he's the faster...

That's why I'm armed.  He can charge with his pointy
stick all he wants.  But my lead and steel can, I
feel, come up with quite a convincing opposing
argument:-)
END QUOTE

Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
pointy stick :)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:18:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:18:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204150043.RAA22864@molly.iii.com> from "Anthony Jackson" at Apr 14, 2002 05:43:03 PM
Message-ID: <200204162126.g3GLQsn00991@localhost.uia.net>

> Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
> network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
> just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.
> 
> In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
> a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
> wormholes have to share a reference frame.

I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20416.155109.2O0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1018999846.3010.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
> 
> The particles take a fair amount of energy to melt. While molten they
> continue to retro-reflect part of the beam and disperse the rest.
> 
> They take even more energy to vaporize and form a plasma easily. The
> plasma is opaque to laser energy and absorbs even *more* of the beam
> energy.

Now, let's consider a typical example: a typical TTL13 X-ray laser.  It focuses
to a beam 1 cm wide, with an unclear duration; we'll assume 100 milliseconds,
as that will avoid significant problems with the beam impact point moving.  The
total beam energy is on the order of 400 megajoules, and has a damage value
(T4) of 50.

The target is a 200 dton sphere, with a cross-section of 240 square meters. 
One can at AV 50 is 320 kilograms.  Since the beam has a cross-section of
0.0001 m^2, it actually strikes 0.13 grams of sand.

As it happens, X-rays can go through that much material without even worrying
about getting it out of the way.  Ignoring that, if we assume the 'sand' is
synthetic diamond, it has a heat of vaporization of 8 kilojoules.  Further
ignoring the fact that X-rays don't generally reflect very well, through a
variety of tricks we'll argue that the actual energy of vaporization is 1
megajoule (125x greater).

399 megajoules to go.  Well, perhaps the vapor is opaque.  Let's add another
megajoule to the vapor, heating it up to some obscene temperature, and assume
that 90% of the absorbed energy is lost to immediate reradiation.  The
remaining 100 kilojoules causes the gas in the path of the laser to explode
outwards, with an average velocity of 39 kilometers per second.  1 microsecond
later, the plasma has had its density drop by a factor of around 10, which
should allow the X-rays to shine through.  Since the power output is 4
megajoules per microsecond, the total energy absorbed by the sand is maybe 5
megajoules.  Gee, only another 80x increase in efficiency and we'll actually
stop the beam.

> Well, in space, outside of low orbit, stuff like sand and "smoke" tend
> to be rather more effective, because they don't get left behind. 

Well, if you don't use any thrust and use gravetics to prevent the stuff from
wandering, sure.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204162126.g3GLQsn00991@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019000154.7419.ajackson@ping>

jimv writes:

> I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim

All methods of using FTL to accomplish time travel rely on the fact that for
any form of FTL movement, there exists a reference frame where in some
direction or another, the FTL movement appears to be going backwards in time. 
Therefore, you move, shift velocity to a different reference frame, and then
reverse the trip.  The trip took positive time according to the ship's onboard
time, but negative time according to an outside observer.

If you require that all FTL movement occur within a single reference frame, you
can't change reference frames to make the round trip, and total trip time
always remains positive, though different reference frames will disagree as to
how the time requirement was divided up, and may claim that certain sections of
the trip took negative amounts of time.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damn mind rapers
Message-ID: <200204162344.EFH02038@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Psis are a military and internal security necessity.  I think 
that the whole B5 attitude towards them was pretty good.  
IBIS makes covert use of them.  The military intel people 
make use of them.  For some reason Vilani and Solomani aren't 
any good at PK or teleportation. That's something the Zhodani 
are good at.  Of course, it's not secret in the Zhodani 
Consulate - it's a way of life.

People do tend to dislike them, but that's the popular view.  
Many corporations use telepaths to verify truth and intent 
when signing major contracts.

Then again, they aren't common.  IBIS has a special division 
that trains them.  Rumor has it that they *are* the Psionics 
Institute.  One more reason that people don't trust the 
trained ones.  Untrained, well, some people can't help the 
way they were born.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 17:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 16 16:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
Message-ID: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see 
<http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file 
their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).

Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and 
although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the 
end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned 
for a financial year until after you've earned it.

Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
timetable works??

[ BTW, I'm only asking for a quick reply to a query. Anything further 
(anti-IRS rants, full 20-page technical descriptions of the US economy, 
etc etc) probably should go to the discussion list.  %^P  ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <3CBD64AF.31847.709971@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 20:32, Robert O'Connor wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
> (of radiation effects on fertility)
> > Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in 
> > men, if you prefer)?
> 
> Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
> the testis to ionising radiation.

How penetrating is ionising radiation in general? If it's not very 
penetrating there should be some adjustment made to allow for the 
ovaries being protected by being inside, rather than outside the torso.
 

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:04:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:04:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
In-Reply-To: <20416.134013.8u0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020416031009.2bda525e.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3CBD64AF.11090.709A27@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 13:40, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> And I'm rather suspicious of the masses David Weber gives for a lot of
> the ships in the Honor Harrington stuff too.

I'm rather suspicious of a lot of things in those books. As for the 
mass, I think he used a square when he should have used a cube law.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:05:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:05:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ortillery
In-Reply-To: <OFF290291A.CB37BC25-ONCA256B9D.0017EFD0@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3CBD64AF.28128.7098A2@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 16:17, david.d.jaques-watson@centrel wrote:

> You are not mistaken. It's mentioned in Striker Book 2, part of the 
> "Integrating with Traveller" section.
> 
> My bet is that it goes back to "Starship Troopers".

I'm fairly sure it doesn't, because in ST the navy didn't seem to 
provide fire support, just softening bombardments with nukes.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:06:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:06:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
References: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>


david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> 
> Dear Folks -
> 
> In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see
> <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file
> their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
> 
> Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and
> although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the
> end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned
> for a financial year until after you've earned it.
> 
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's
> timetable works??

Earnings are based on calendar year (1 Jan - 31 Dec).  We receive an
official statement from our employers ("W-2" form) of our earnings,
taxable earnings (not always the same) and taxes withheld no later than
31 Jan of the next year.  We then have until 15 April to file our tax
paperwork (Form 1040, in one of several variations) and pay any tax due.

For further information, check:

http://www.irs.gov

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEECFDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <3CBD66E0.27266.792890@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 13:49, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
> of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
> something that will be directly proportional to it.

It's simple - the apparent size of the world is what matters. You see 
the jump drives get frightened if they see large opjects in the shy, 
and they don't work well under stress.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:14:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:14:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
References: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au> <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CBCBDFA.1AA77C4E@premier.net>

John Groth wrote:

<<snip>>
> 
> Earnings are based on calendar year (1 Jan - 31 Dec).  We receive an
> official statement from our employers ("W-2" form) of our earnings,
> taxable earnings (not always the same) and taxes withheld no later than
> 31 Jan of the next year.

Just to clarify:

Earnings are based on calendar year (01 Jan X0 - 31 Dec X0), and the W-2
form should be received no later than 31 Jan X1.

Why US income taxes are based on calendar years, while the Federal
government's fiscal years run from 01 Oct X0 - 30 Sep X1 (said year
being referred to as Fiscal Year X1) is beyond me.

Note also that different states may have income tax filing dates that
differ from that of the Federal government....

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:21:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:21:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi,

> There are "clusters". And it's *really* unlikely that any sizable body
> will have a density much above Mercury's. At least in a "normal"
> system. The planets that form around supernova remnants are likely to
> be very different.

Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

Besides, what's "normal" ? Our solar system could be the odd one out, for
all we know. Until we survey a few others, I'd say it was not a good idea to
make assumptions concerning the frequency of systems like ours. Consider the
size of our moon to the Earth, for example. If it hadn't have been for a
body the size of Mars hitting the just-born Earth, the Earth would have been
larger and the moon non-existent, with dramatic effects on evolution and
culture thereafter. The chances of that collision happening may have been
vanishingly small, making the Earth Moon system unique.

Finally, all non-jovian planets form from Supernova remnants. That's what
(a) manufactures the heavier elements in the first place, and (b) creates a
large cloud of particulate and gas that condenses to form a new star. The
presence of anything above the lighter elements in the solar system implies
that the Sun and its family owe their existence to the previous catastrophic
death of a long dead star.

If you are referring to oddities like pulsar planets here, then I'd agree
they would probably be denser if they formed from debris. But then, its more
likely that a pulsar has captured a body ejected from another system, as
supernovas tend to clear the area near the site of the explosion and drive
all the suitable accretion material well away from the pulsar itself. That
Hubble image of the 1987A (?, can't remember the designation now) supernova
remnant shows this in practice - a huge shockwave travelling at relativistic
velocities away from the pulsar corem driving superheated gas and
particulate with it.

> Ain't gonna happen. The abundance of materials in the cloud of dust and
> gas a system forms from means that anything with a substantial iron
> core will have a lot more rocky material overlying it.

Just because it's less likely doesn't mean it won't happen. A few years ago,
superjovians in the inner system were thought impossible, and then guess
what they found ?

Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
come up eventually.

> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.

Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

> I'm not going to quit indicating emphasis. And the alternatives are
> asterisks or underlines and the asterisks are much easier to hit.

Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
all.

> Yes, it's harder to read a sentence where you individually emphasize
> each word with them. But that's not what I'm doing.

No, but it made the point - the *'s draw your eyes to particular key words
and make the sentence harder to read.

> As for patronizing, I'm not responsible for what you read into what I
> write.

Hah ! Have you ever thought of a career in politics ? :-)

Seriously, if you decide to emphasize particular words, then you are
attempting to enforce those words and colour the interpretation of the
sentence, which is what emphasis is all about anyway. Take the sentence
above, "it's *really* unlikely" - there was no need to emphasize the word
"really" here at all. The wording was more than sufficient. All you achieved
was to add a dismissive/patronising tone, as if to say "it's so unlikely
that it's not even worth considering, so I am not going to".

> Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
> of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
> something that will be directly proportional to it.

Why does it have to vary with the inverse cube of the distance ? That
automatically makes the assumption that I argued against, which is "just
because the figures fit it must be right". I'd agree that the tidal figures
being identical for a given density across all world sizes seems convincing,
until you remember that densities are not going to be uniform at all. Then
the "figures matching" evidence breaks down (IIRC, Larger rocky/terrestrial
worlds are likely to have a higher density, as their proto-cores must have
been more massive during accretion to gain the additonal mass in the first
place - therefore as you go from UWP Size 1 to A, the density is likely to
increase, and the tidal force likewise).

Might it not make more sense to say that 100 diameters was a simplification
for the game, and an arbitrary value, rather than cook the Physics books to
justify it ? If you are going to make a "realistic-feel" limit for Jump
Drives, it would make more sense to define it in terms of the gravitational
field strength and forget the diameters thing entirely, except maybe as a
passing comment such as "for Earth this occurs at 100 planetary diameters".

Regards

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <B8E20E0C.3AB65%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/16/02 4:56 PM, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au at
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

> Dear Folks -
> 
> In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see
> <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file
> their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
> 
> Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and
> although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the
> end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned
> for a financial year until after you've earned it.
> 
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's
> timetable works??

Tax year runs January 1 through December 31, with filing not later than
April 15 the following year unless and extension is granted.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416183650.00b8f070@urbin.net>
References: <3CBC7D4F.7020102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CBD6995.16638.83BD87@localhost>

On 16 Apr 2002 at 18:37, Mark Urbin wrote:

> >How long did your party survive before the local residents rounded you up 
> >and hung you?
> 
> That's why he should have checked for witnesses first.

Yep. Witnesses are easier to deal with if you can shoot them before 
they know what's going on.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Damn mind rapers
Message-ID: <20020417003134.71770.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

My apoligise to the TML for that PBEM post, in future
must check address before posting. Agian my apoligies.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEDLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> >
> > Dear Folks -
> >
> > In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see
> > <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens
> have to file
> > their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
> >
> > Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and
> > although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the
> > end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned
> > for a financial year until after you've earned it.
> >
> > Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's
> > timetable works??
>
> Earnings are based on calendar year (1 Jan - 31 Dec).  We receive an
> official statement from our employers ("W-2" form) of our earnings,
> taxable earnings (not always the same) and taxes withheld no later than
> 31 Jan of the next year.  We then have until 15 April to file our tax
> paperwork (Form 1040, in one of several variations) and pay any tax due.
>
> For further information, check:
>
> http://www.irs.gov

Well, that sounds all nice and simple.

Over here in blighty, our tax year runs 5th April - 5th April, and the tax
calculations are arcane mysteries. A plethora of forms (P14, P35, P60, et
al) exist for the end of year.

And then, your accountant miscalculates and you end up 465.40 adrift
because he went to a calculator feeding frenzy and slipped on the keys. Such
is life.

ObTrav: What about tax returns in the Imperium ? In particular, what about
tax returns for expatriot traders and the like - do they pay tax where their
ship is registered, or pro rata per world they stay on, or what ?

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Even more GT: First In questions
Message-ID: <F195IuSRhAssGzeKkWG0000635c@hotmail.com>

>>And I'm rather suspicious of the masses David Weber gives for a lot of
>>the ships in the Honor Harrington stuff too.
>
>I'm rather suspicious of a lot of things in those books. As for the
>mass, I think he used a square when he should have used a cube law.
>
If the ships have any significant armour then he should have used both 
(square for armour and cube for more or less everything else) assuming he 
didn't set a fixed ratio between volume and armour mass. There should also 
be a constant term and some terms with fractional powers but they might be 
small enough to ignore. It's probably easier and more accurate to build the 
ships FFS/Vehicles style.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <20020416221005.288A827A31@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00c001c1e5aa$dad24960$50b18b90@computer>

> From: Derek Wildstar
> while a lot has been written about the various Traveller militaries, I
> don't think anyone has ever written a supplement about lawyers and
> lawsuits in the Imperium.  ;-)

Hmm....  No, I think you are right - we don't know much about lawyers in the
OTU.

We do, however, know that all accountants have cutlass skill, that all
philosophers wear black berets, and that it is not wise to assume that
everyone who wears a black beret is necessarily a philosopher.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
References: <20020416154004.A42C527A0E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00bd01c1e5aa$d8c25520$50b18b90@computer>

From: James Ramsay
> Oh and a funny thing here in Australia, three of our sailors where
> arrested for damaging earth moving equipment! And these people are
> protecting our waters?

Well of course they damaged it!  They thought earth was just like water.

Or do you mean they were in _possession_ of damaging earth moving equipment?
I would have thought that was the point of the navy - damaging things and
moving earth around.

Maybe they were trying to use the earth moving equipment to protect our
waters by burying them?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com










From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <00bf01c1e5aa$da2a70a0$50b18b90@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon"
> So I pulled the autorifle out of the car and shot the occupants of the
> other car without warning.  Then we went through their pockets for loose
> change.

Wow.  What an incredibly bad idea...  I don't think I've met a single ref
who would have let you get away with that. About the only way you could have
would be if the ref didn't want to have to waste time while you rolled up
new characters.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:56:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:56:30 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
Message-ID: <00bc01c1e5aa$d823a420$50b18b90@computer>

From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> That's the sort of magical transformation that all those alchemists dreamt
> about! (Actually, they would have been happy with just a lump of gold, but
> you get my drift... ;-).

Strictly speaking, the goals of alchemy were religious/spiritual.  The
"turning lead to gold" thing was a metaphor.

Of course, there might have been some alchemists that didn't understand
that.  There certainly were a bunch of non-alchemists that didn't, and
handed over plenty of gold to alchemists for the latter to turn to lead for
them.

I've always found it interesting that people like Newton and Boyle were
alchemists.  After all, alchemists were basically wizards.  This raises some
wonderful possibilities.  The British government basically legalised a coven
of witches.  What deals were made to accomplish this?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:57:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:57:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170054.EFJ05650@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

A Los Alamos report

LA-3126-MS           
Pion-nucleon elastic scattering experiments with
high intensity meson beams

How do I get a copy?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:57:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:57:48 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20020416190104.2243227A2D@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00be01c1e5aa$d9841e80$50b18b90@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon" 
> Also, they didn't like us doing those prayers and songs from 
> the second Planet of the Apes movie (there was one very born-
> again officer who got apoplectic when the missile raised up 
> during a countdown, and I bent to one knee, pointed, and 
> said, "Behold, Our God!".

Yeah, well, you can rack up another keyboard kill for this...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 18:59:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 16 17:59:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <20020416221005.288A827A31@mail.travellercentral.com> <00c001c1e5aa$dad24960$50b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3CBCC836.201FC590@premier.net>


Alan Bradley wrote:
> 
> > From: Derek Wildstar
> > while a lot has been written about the various Traveller militaries, I
> > don't think anyone has ever written a supplement about lawyers and
> > lawsuits in the Imperium.  ;-)
> 
> Hmm....  No, I think you are right - we don't know much about lawyers in the
> OTU.
> 
> We do, however, know that all accountants have cutlass skill, that all
> philosophers wear black berets, and that it is not wise to assume that
> everyone who wears a black beret is necessarily a philosopher.

I've also mentioned that AuricTech Shipyards (quasi-canon, as the firm
is described in _101 Corporations_) has a contingent of "suits": lawyers
in battledress. ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204170054.EFJ05650@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019005361.2749.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> A Los Alamos report
> 
> LA-3126-MS           
> Pion-nucleon elastic scattering experiments with
> high intensity meson beams
> 
> How do I get a copy?

Somehow, I suspect it would be either incomprehensible or horribly boring even
if you requested it.  In any case, these aren't traveller mesons, since they
seem to actually interact with matter, as opposed to mystically passing through
it without interaction ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LAMPF - a meson facility!
Message-ID: <200204170105.EFJ07268@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Evidently home to the world's most powerful proton 
accelerator (800 MeV).  There's an article about how they 
have to treat items that were in the "hot cell" which 
were "target processed".  These items are apparently 
radioactive after the beam hits them (whether the beam is a 
proton beam or neutron beam).

They can also produce a beam of high energy neutrons by 
striking a tantalum screen with the proton beam.

ObTrav:  After your ship is hit by a meson weapon, assuming 
you're still alive, is the ship a radioactive wreck?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Walt Smith on "Alien"
Message-ID: <20020417011017.28326.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Or do you mean they were in _possession_ of damaging
earth moving equipment? I would have thought that was
the point of the navy - damaging things and moving
earth around.
END QUOTE

Now they damaged some earth moving equipment. However
it was civilian earth moving equipment! Ive said it
before and I will say it agin I am sooooo glad
Australia doesn't have nukes!

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #413 - 48 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020417010107.F3AC9279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020417010107.F3AC9279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <mripbu88p8l3cb85uuh4h4600e5ob0gkac@4ax.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 17:59:21 -0700, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
wrote:

>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:56:56 +1000
>Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>Dear Folks -

>In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see 
><http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file 
>their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).

>Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and 
>although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the 
>end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned 
>for a financial year until after you've earned it.

>Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
>timetable works??

Unless your company specifically indicates otherwise, fiscal years for IRS
purposes are 01/01 to 31/12.  Filing deadline is 15/4 for the prior tax
year.  You can apply for an extension until 15/8, but if you have a tax
liability (i.e., you need to pay rather than receiving a refund) you must
pay by 15/4.


--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net> <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020417114559.A29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Just curious, but what about storing H2 as hydrides?  Don't you get
> a higher density?

Not really.  Hydrides are a form of hydrogen storage with the
advantages of requiring little energy to extract and of being
relatively safe, cheap and reusable.  The best quoted hydride storage
I found on the Web had a hydrogen storage capacity of 95 kg/m^3 at
pressures near 1 atm (assuming bulk solid, which it wouldn't be).
That's better than liquid hydrogen, but lower than water.

Once you have hydrogen-driven fusion power, the energy cost to extract
hydrogen from water becomes pretty much irrelevant.  The expense of
even the cheapest metal hydride storage grossly exceeds that of water
tanks, as well as being a lot heavier.


- Tim




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018998784.5627.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1018998784.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020417114826.B29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
[ Jump fuel requirements ]
> Which is, based on the existence of drop tanks, equal to the total
> fuel requirement of jump.

Please, let's not start the drop-tank "Canon says this!  No, that's
contradicted by *that*" flamewar again.  I did very carefully specify
the requirements applied to My Traveller universe for a reason.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 19:49:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 18:49:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170147.EFL02200@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>In any case, these aren't traveller mesons, since=
 they
>seem to actually interact with matter, as opposed to =

>mystically passing through it without interaction ;)

There seems to =
be a major misconception about meson beams in =

Traveller. I still remember reading the original JTAS article.

A semi=
stable meson produced either in a neutral =

form with a mass 264 times that of an electron =

and a mean lifetime of 8.4 =D7 10^17 seconds =

or in a positively or negatively charged form =

with a mass 273 times that of an electron and a =

mean lifetime of 2.6 =D7 10^8 seconds. =

Also called pi meson.

The neutral pion decays in about 10^15 sec, =

usually into a pair of photons but occasionally =

into a positron-electron pair and a photon. Gamma ray photons.

The Tr=
aveller meson was described in an old JTAS
article.  It is a pi neutral=
 meson.  It has no
magical non-interaction properties - it is merely
v=
ery highly penetrating, as cosmic rays (which are
relativistic pi meson=
s) are.  The reason that cosmic =

rays don't make it to the ground is that they decay
before they get low=
er (the atmosphere does slow them
down).  A ship targeted by a relativi=
stic beam tuned
to precipitate the decay of all of its pions a short
d=
istance into the target is a meson gun.

There were experimental radia=
tion treatment machines
designed on this principle, to put radiation in=
to =

specific areas of a patient.

The LAMPF facility at Los Alamos is the =
most powerful
meson accelerator in the world, at 800 Mev.  It was
orig=
inally built in 1968, and has been upgraded over
time.

The Los Alamo=
s National Laboratory proposes =

to construct a scientifically broadly based =

facility using the existing Los Alamos Meson =

Physics Facility (LAMPF) accelerator as =

its injector. Both the Canadian and Los Alamos =

proposals have the capability of providing a =

hundredfold increase in the intensity of =

certain meson and hadron beams over those =

available today. That's 80 GeV.
________________
"Imposed armistices .=
 . . artificially =

freeze conflict and perpetuate a state =

of war indefinitely by shielding the =

weaker side from the consequences of =

refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20416.182943.8V3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Bruce Johnson asks
>>
>>How long did your party survive before the local residents 
>>rounded you  up and hung you?
>>
> That was the problem.  They had friends.  We got back to 
> town, and they heard about it.  Later that day, when we were 
> strolling into the front foyer of the guest house were were 
> staying at, three men stepped into the room and opened up on 
> us with submachineguns.  Of the six people in our party, one 
> survived.  The three attackers died, but the locals were 
> steamed enough to shoot the survivor after hearing his tale.

Congratulations on rediscovering the principle of the blood feud.

> It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
> principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
> friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
> received.

Also, never *ever* attack someone who has a family. Especially a tight
knit one.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:05:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:05:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <p0433010ab8e24dae9b06@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20416.190000.0p2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:45 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>>  At 1:48 PM -0800 4/14/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>Sorry, it's the *tidal* forces, not the gravity. Work out the gravity
>>>>and the tidal force at 100 diameters from size 1 thru A worlds
>>>>(assuming uniform density). The gravity varies all over the place. The
>>>>todal forces are the same.
>>>
>>>  A bit of semantics, but the tidal force on an object depends on the
>>>  size of object.  I forget what other term people use for the quantity
>>>  in question, but I think it is more intuitive to call it the tidal
>>>  gradient.
>>
>>Actually, the tidal force varies *linearly* with the distance from the
>>center of mass of the body experiencing the tidal forces. Not *quite*
>>the same thing as varying with the size.
>
> The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also 
> true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to 
> another will depend on how far apart they are.

You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
forces). 

>>As a good example, consider some folks in spacesuits tethered to a
>>ship. The forces they experience depend on the distance and direction
>>from the ship, not on the size of the ship.
>
> True.  Though the difference in force between the guy in the space 
> suit different parts of the ship will depend on the size of the ship.

No. I'm talking about the tidal forces on the guy in the suit generated
by the fact that the ship he's attached to is in orbit about a planet.

The forces he experiences at 100 meters from the center of the ship are
ten times those he'd experience at 10 meters (in the same direction).
 
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:06:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:06:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417085805.D28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.190553.2F8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Stephen Tempest wrote:
>> Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?
>
> Of course :)
>
> It varies with which rules, time period, and dataset you use, but my
> figures are on the order of 100 PCr/year.  Never seen a 'P' prefix
> used before?  10^15, in case anyone was wondering ;)

Y	yotta	10^24
Z	zetta	10^21
E	exa	10^18
P	peta	10^15
T	tera	10^12
G	giga	10^9
M	mega	10^6
k	kilo	10^3
h	hecto	10^2
da	deka	10^1

The prefixes go all the way down to 10^-24 too, but those aren't likely
to come up in our discussions.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:07:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:07:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <20416.134905.7q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020417120609.C29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Brick wrote:
> If you are going to make a "realistic-feel" limit for Jump Drives,
> it would make more sense to define it in terms of the gravitational
> field strength and forget the diameters thing entirely, except maybe
> as a passing comment such as "for Earth this occurs at 100 planetary
> diameters".


That's exactly what I'm doing.  The tidal gradient *is* the
gravitational field.  Acceleration is coordinate-dependent, and not
intrinsic to gravity.

It so happens that it works out very similar in behaviour to a
diameter based rule, which is an added bonus.  On the other hand, the
fact that the two rules give very similar results may be considered a
problem -- certainly it seems to have caused a lot of confusion here!


- Tim



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
In-Reply-To: <3CBC9A4C.4000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416222702.02624008@192.168.0.1>

At 02:40 PM 4/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>William Lane wrote:
>
>>Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
>>everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
>>info.
>
>That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write XML 
>to Cobol and back...


Way cool!  Can I add this to my Traveller Maintenance Blues page?
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html>

This will great with your other great bit on the subject:
Captain to new crewmember:

"Well, the damn nic in the aft engineering workstation died a month ago, 
and since it's a 150 year old model, it's been hard to find parts...so we 
just do everything by hand...I know, I know, it's a pain, and someday we're 
gonna have to jump on less than 12 hours notice...I'll get _around_ to it, 
ok? Now go pound on the forward stab'rd ventilation controller, the damn 
relay's stuck closed again, and if that keeps upit's gonna be like an 
icebox in the passenger cabins again."


>oBTRav> Captain finds engineer hip deep in the Jump drive controller with 
>an exceptionally old-looking piece of hardware in his hands.
>
>Captain: "Good lord, Scottie! That's a jump *tape* reader! What is that 
>antique doing on my jump drive??"
>
>Engineer: "Well Captain, we cannae find the right components to rrepair 
>the drive controller. Urgvark" he points to a crazed looking Vargr 
>assistant engineer, "...found this in a antique shop. We're tying it into 
>the saircuit right now."
>
>C: "But how will we control it? I haven't seen a jump tape in my life that 
>wasn't in a museum!"
>
>E:"Well Captain, I have a writing head from a holocorder here, we can 
>connect it to the main computer, and have it translate the control 
>instructions from the astrogation program to the correct patterns that a 
>jump tape would have. It should work, in theory, sah. " Shouts "OK 
>Urgvark! Give me some power..."
>
><SNAP> <Pop fsssssshhhhhh> "Turn it off! Turn it off!"
>
>E: Through the smoke..."Ahh captain, we're going ta need some morrre time..."
>
>C: weeps.
>
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170239.TAA01546@ping.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Anthony Jackson says
>>In any case, these aren't traveller mesons, since they
>>seem to actually interact with matter, as opposed to 
>>mystically passing through it without interaction ;)
>
>There seems to be a major misconception about meson beams in 
>Traveller. I still remember reading the original JTAS article.

Nah.  Meson beams have a number of clearly non-physical properties, starting
with the magical 'timed delay'.

>A semistable meson produced either in a neutral 
>form with a mass 264 times that of an electron 
>and a mean lifetime of 8.4  10^17 seconds 
>or in a positively or negatively charged form 
>with a mass 273 times that of an electron and a 
>mean lifetime of 2.6  10^8 seconds. 
>Also called pi meson.

Well, assuming 'lifespan' is half-life, neutral pion is a bit off 
(6.63x10^-17s), charged pion is insanely off (3.76x10^-8), and both
interact via the strong force, giving them penetration not significantly
different from protons at the same energy levels.  Among common partiles,
the best penetrator would be the muon (sometimes called the mu meson,
though it's not a meson), as it's fairly massive (avoiding the effects
that bleed energy off electrons) and doesn't interact via the strong
force.  It also has as longer lifespan than any type of pion (3.17x10^-6).
A teravolt accelerator might have usable range in space combat.

>The Traveller meson was described in an old JTAS
>article.  It is a pi neutral meson.  It has no
>magical non-interaction properties - it is merely
>very highly penetrating, as cosmic rays (which are
>relativistic pi mesons) are.  The reason that cosmic 
>rays don't make it to the ground is that they decay
>before they get lower (the atmosphere does slow them
>down).  A ship targeted by a relativistic beam tuned
>to precipitate the decay of all of its pions a short
>distance into the target is a meson gun.

The decay process described above is clearly magical, since fundamental 
particles don't decay at a fixed time, they simply have a normal logarithmic
decay and will thus have the largest number of decays right in front of the
barrel.  It also requires utterly insane energy levels for neutral pions to
have any range (by the abbreviations given elsewhere, somewhere around 100
YEv).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20416.182943.8V3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204161937200.17414-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Congratulations on rediscovering the principle of the blood feud.
> 
> > It was later in life that I learned the corollary to this 
> > principle.  Never, ever get into a fight when someone has his 
> > friends present.  Probably the worst b_kicking I ever 
> > received.
> 
> Also, never *ever* attack someone who has a family. Especially a tight
> knit one.
> 
Don't attack people with seriously dysfunctional families, either.

In any given moment, at least 50% of my relatives aren't speaking to at
least one other relative.  That doesn't mean they wouldn't ALL get
together and kick your ass if you attacked one of us-- the principle as
far as I can tell is that we're the only people who are allowed to hurt
us.  I was very, very surprised when my brother, who is on crack half the
time and with whom I can rarely have a civil conversation due to his
racism, sexism and homophobia, decided he was going after my ex-husband,
and I was the only person on earth who was able to stop him.  And did,
because Vince isn't worth that kind of trouble and Tripp doesn't need
another strike toward the three.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170250.EFN02270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson
>
>Nah.  Meson beams have a number of clearly non-physical 
>properties, starting with the magical 'timed delay'.
>

There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes 
are for mesons that are *not* in motion.

Mesons that are moving at relativistic velocities last a 
*lot* longer.  Otherwise, cosmic rays would never pass down 
into our upper atmosphere.

The decay times listed are also from a Los Alamos website.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <3CBD64AF.31847.709971@localhost>
References: <3CBD64AF.31847.709971@localhost>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8e293c05231@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:03 PM +1200 4/17/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 16 Apr 2002 at 20:32, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>
>>  Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
>>  (of radiation effects on fertility)
>>  > Wouldn't this be different in men than in women (or in women than in
>>  > men, if you prefer)?
>>
>>  Yep. Halve the doses for females ; the ovary is more sensitive than
>>  the testis to ionising radiation.
>
>How penetrating is ionising radiation in general? If it's not very
>penetrating there should be some adjustment made to allow for the
>ovaries being protected by being inside, rather than outside the torso.

Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can 
easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the 
skin (or more than a meter or two of air).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 20:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 16 19:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.190000.0p2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.190000.0p2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8e294f89b54@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:00 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>  > The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also
>>  true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to
>>  another will depend on how far apart they are.
>
>You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
>depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
>ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
>forces).

I'm not sure what force you are talking about.  The force on any one 
part of the ship is the force of gravity.  Tidal forces are the 
relative difference in forces between different parts of an object.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Qiuck Query on US Tax Returns
Message-ID: <3CBCE57F.316C0F85@mail.cswnet.com>

Further clarifications to what John Groth wrote:

>Earnings are based on calendar year (01 Jan X0 - 31 Dec X0), and the >W-2 form should be received no later than 31 Jan X1.

There is a grace period for employers sending out W-2 forms. While the
forms themselves must go out 1/31, taxpayers who have not recieved them
cannot contact the IRS until 2/15.

April 15 is the tax deadline. Extensions to file the taxes are allowed,
but extensions for paying the taxes are not. Thus if you owe and take an
extension you still wind up paying penalties and interest.

>Note also that different states may have income tax filing dates that
>differ from that of the Federal government....

Examples: Arkansas and Louisiana, both file taxes 1 month after the
Federal return, on 5/15.

California requires its taxes on 4/15, but grants an automatic extension
for filing till 10/15. Again, this is for filing only, not for taxes
owed.

Also, some states [Wyoming, Florida, Nevada, Texas, Alaska, Washington,
South Dakota] do not have personal income tax. Two others, New Hampshire
and Tennessee don't really deal with personal tax unless your a richie
with lots of dividends and interest earnings. I imagine that in these
states they get the income via sales and property taxes. Texas, as an
example, has its infamous "Hospitality Tax", which is a sales tax on
hotels and motels.

Then there is that unique fun known to tax preparers as "the all-states
return." This is where the taxpayer has moved from one state to another,
and the tax preparer gets to pull his/her hair out trying to figure all
the tax consequences for the individual. And some states don't make it
easy. Check out Wisconsins Form 827, Legal Residence (Domicile)
Questionnaire. By the time you get done with it, you'll think you've
arrived in the Solomani Confederation.

This is a good place to start:
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

You can get to the IRS site here. It also gives you an overlook at US
states in the "State Tax Profiles" section.

Andy B writes:
>ObTrav: What about tax returns in the Imperium ? In particular, what >about tax returns for expatriot traders and the like - do they pay tax >where their ship is registered, or pro rata per world they stay on, or >what ?

When I first got on the TML, back on the old list, we had a big
discussion about taxes. Actually, I think it was the first question I
posted. IIRC, the general opinion was that the Imperuim itself doesn't
do personal income taxes. It gets its money from planetary transfers
[the 30% thing you see in Striker] and sales taxes [seen chiefly at
Starports, or in systems where the Imperuim controls liscencing for belt
mining]. Personal income taxes are a province of what ever planet you
are from. Be advised that whatever you pc is doing, he will, eventually
and inevitably, have to deal with taxes in one form or another. Take my
little piece of landgrab heaven, Arba/Lunion 1721. Zero government, Zero
lawlevel. The perfect tax shelter, right? Just don't go to the Starport,
cause the SPA needs ALOT of money to run it and you WILL pay thru the
nose going through there. So you go out to the asteroid belt to mine ice
so you don't have to go to the port, right? So sorry, but the Imperuim
requires you to have a prospectors liscence [to help defray the cost of
maintaining a small patrol running through the system]. And so on and so
forth. 

God, I just spent all day yesterday working on other peoples taxes. I
found the whole experience ....

[WAIT FOR IT]




I found the whole experience TAXING.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"Let me tell you how it will be. There's one for you, nineteen for me.
Cause I'm the Tax Man, oh yeah I'm the Tax Man."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:07:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:07:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20416.191041.8G1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
>
>>>Terra   PH-Y9414GI-600000-00000-0  =3D20
>>
>>Shouldnt the hull code be Z? I though Y was for 1,000,000 to=20
>>1,999,999. Z was for anything above that.=20
>
> Y is for 1,000,000 to "the next stated level" - but there isn't one,
> so I'm assuming it's just "over a million tons".  Z is "Reserved".
>
>>>MCr 37,677,000,000,000,000,000
>>Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
>>Architects fees? Anyone?
>
> Standard cost.  If you *really* want to start mass-producing these
> things, you scare me ;-)
>
> I didn't include the architect's fees, but they'd be TCr 376,770.  The
> kind of contract every naval architect dreams of.

Check out Fritz Leiber's novel "The Wanderer" for planet ships.
Including things like PAW mounts with tunnels thousands of miles long. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:08:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:08:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417082001.B28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.192354.1u3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
>> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
> Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
> a nitpick.

I was going by the figures in the post I was responding to, which had a
higher density listed for Mercury.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204170250.EFN02270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204170250.EFN02270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes are for
> mesons that are *not* in motion.

They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half of the
original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has elapsed, 1/4 decay in
the next half-life period, 1/8 in the half-life after that, etc.

In a universe in which electronic precognition is common, you might be
able to look into the future and tell which are going to decay when.
Then you can preferentially accelerate the short-lived ones.  Oh,
you'll need accelerators capable of delivering a few megajoules *per
particle* as well, controllable to within 1 part per trillion, and
reliable precognition to the same accuracy.

Short of that, you'll get a beam of decaying mesons all along your
firing path, with the greatest concentration of decays *inside* your
weapon.


Getting a real meson to decay "on schedule" at a distance of hundreds
of thousands of kilometres is indeed magic of a very high order
according to current physics.  I'm not doubting that they exist in the
Traveller universe, just that their behaviour is radically different
from the way *real* mesons behave.

I'm a fan of the "Dr Meson" theory.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 21:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 20:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204170327.UAA04325@ping.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Anthony Jackson
>>
>>Nah.  Meson beams have a number of clearly non-physical 
>>properties, starting with the magical 'timed delay'.
>>
>
>There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes 
>are for mesons that are *not* in motion.

You missed the point.  The point is that particles don't have 'lifespans'
(that can be extended with relativistic effects).  The have half-lives
(that can also be extended with relativistic effects) but the effect of
a half-life is that decays happen along the entire length of the beam,
with the largest number occuring right in front of the barrel.
>
>Mesons that are moving at relativistic velocities last a 
>*lot* longer.  Otherwise, cosmic rays would never pass down 
>into our upper atmosphere.

Well, cosmic rays are mostly regular nuclei initially; by and large everything
but the muons does decay before reaching the ground.

> The decay times listed are also from a Los Alamos website.

Hm..odd, I got mine off an LBL website.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018991242.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com> <ML-2.3.1018991242.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <i1qpbu0h52l19nh3hil3ubpm159pg14q71@4ax.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:07:22 -0700 (PDT), Anthony Jackson
<ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>I seem to recall something about X-ray lasers being developed, but =
they're not
>exactly weapons-grade.  The old SDI people talked about bomb-pumped =
X-ray
>lasers, a mechanism which AFAIK has never been successfully =
demonstrated, not
>that this prevent people from using it in SF.

I believe that bomb-pumped X-ray lasers were among the last things
examined with the underground nuclear tests.  If I recall, at they
showed some disappointing results in regard to focusing.

Since that time, there have no doubt been refinements to the design to
address the problem, but of course they haven't been tested.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:07:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:07:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com> <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 13:58:32 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) wrote:

>In mail you write:
>
><SNIP>
>>
>> It is possible that we are not speaking of the same thing.  In another
>> of your posts, you appeared to state that both the tensional and
>> compressional forces were generated by the tidal forces (forgive me if
>> I am interpreting you incorrectly).  I believe you are in error in
>> this regard.  As per the above, the compressional forces are due to
>> the object's self-gravity and only the tensional forces are due to the
>> influence of another body and therefore are tidal forces.
>
>No. Tidal forces are *away* from the center of the satellite along the
>line joining it to the primary (ie the side closest to the primary is
>pulled towards the primary, and the side opposite the primary is pulled
>*away* from the primary.=20
>
>But the forces in the plane perpendicular to that line are *towards*
>the center of the satellite.=20
>
>so if you were orbiting close to a neutron star in a space suit, your
>feet would be pulled towards the star, your head would be pulled away
>from it and your waist would be getting squeezed.=20

Thank you for the clarification.  I'll admit that I'd forgotten the
"pinching" effect taking place in the plane perpendicular to the axis
passing through the primary and the satellite (though I had a clear
image of a fluid satellite doing exactly this in my mind [THUD]}.

However, I want to point you back to the original point of discussion
and the problem I was having with Tim Little's assertion that Jump
Drives are inherently at 0 diameters of the jumping ship itself.  This
may be true if one views the various limits as being imposed by
gravity, but, in a past discussion, it was elegantly pointed out that
tidal force more closely conforms to the 100 or 10 diameter limit for
the various planetary types than does gravity.

My point was that I believe that a body does not exert tidal force
upon itself.  Rather, those forces only appear in relation to two
separate bodies.  Therefore, a ship, otherwise outside the 100
diameter limit of other system bodies (and the tidal forces upon it
from those bodies is therefore negligible), does not exert a tide upon
itself or, to give Tim his due, that those forces are compressional
and are subsumed in the body's own gravitation.  Therefore, the Jump
drive is not working in a 0 diameter condition.

=46ailing this, I'll have to throw in with the earlier hand wave that
the jump grid defines a boundary within which the tidal force (or
gravitation) can be ignored.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:45:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:45:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416222132.009fa690@mail.attbi.com>

	I appreciate the comments of everyone who has replied to my initial 
post.  I gather that sandcasters would work best
against optical wavelengths and might require a lot of sand, but are not 
entirely infeasible.  Particle beams and X-ray lasers appear to be another 
kettle of fish entirely.  Years ago, before the internet, before I knew 
anyone besides myself might be interested in space combat, I checked out a 
copy of The Effects of Nuclear Weapons.  In it I found some interesting 
tables on the 1/2 value thickness of various material versus various forms 
of radiaton.  The 1/2 value thickness for X-rays was approximately 20 grams 
per square cm for heavy metals.  But that was for a solid plate of 
iron.  If the beam had to pass through a long distance (a few hundred 
meters) would that make any difference?  I am wondering if a long 
scattering distance would reduce the required density.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 22:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Apr 16 21:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS TML Skills
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C179DB@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>


Sebastian:
If you have a Skill at Level 0 (e.g. Grav Vehicle-0), and this Skill 'serves
as' another Skill at Level minus 1 (Grav Vehicle serves as Grav Belt -1), at
which Level do I execute the 'served' Skill (Grav Belt)?
at : Level -1 (-> giving a negative DM of 1)?
at : Level 0 (-> minimum Skill-Level is allways 0)?
or not at all (-> there are no 'served' Skills for Level-0-Skills)?


I would go with the first one (giving a negative DM of -1). The other thing
is of course when you have both skills. For example Pilot serves as Ship's
Boat-1. So if you have Ship's Boat-2 and Pilot-3, does your Ship's Boat
become 4 (Pilot-3 minus 1 plus Ship's Boat-2), or is your DM still just 2
and you've wasted two skill levels. 

I love Megatraveller, but like all RPGers I changed it to taste. So for my
system, which has a combo of MT & T4 skills, plus some of my own, any skill
that is related gives a Synergy bonus. For example, I consider Computers and
Robotics linked skills. If you have a Skill level of 2-3 you can add a DM of
1 to a linked skill, and if Skill level 4+ add 2. If you have more than one
linked skill then you only add the highest bonus. 

I have found it works very well. I am more than happy to email to you if
you're interested, along with the reworked task & generation rules. 

Mikey

PS I rolled Ships Boat into Pilot. I thought it was stoopid to have them
separate. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>
References: <o59nbu4fe6ib66hs6qct039n5itq0q45cl@4ax.com> <20416.135832.3c7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020417150233.E29294@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> in a past discussion, it was elegantly pointed out that tidal force
> more closely conforms to the 100 or 10 diameter limit for the
> various planetary types than does gravity.

At the risk of repeating myself: tidal gradient *is* the gravitational
field.  The gravitational field *is* the tidal gradient.  This is
particularly true in General Relativity, where gravitational
"acceleration" has no real existence, and the tidal gradient
corresponds precisely to the spacetime curvature.  This curvature (the
gravitational field) exists inside solid objects as well as outside.


> Failing this, I'll have to throw in with the earlier hand wave that
> the jump grid defines a boundary within which the tidal force (or
> gravitation) can be ignored.

That's what I use.  Works for me.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:16:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:16:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
In-Reply-To: <200204162126.g3GLQsn00991@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20416.215652.8Q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
>> network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
>> just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.
>> 
>> In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
>> a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
>> wormholes have to share a reference frame.
>
> I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim

The existence of a preferred frame, means that laws of physics work
differently in *that* frame than in other frames. Which violates the
hell out of relativity and has other consequences as well. 

But if your drive only works in *that* reference frame or is otherwise
"tied" to it, you don't have to woory about time travel and other problems.

You *do* have to worry about explaining how it is that it just so
happens that this section of the milky way is moving at the right speed
in the right direction for FTL to be "easy" when it's very hard for the
rest of the universe.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:16:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:16:59 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <p04330109b8e24d6388f8@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20416.215513.5m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 1:28 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in
>>  > near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near
>>>  misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a
>>>  single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?
>>
>>We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
>>outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.
>
> We are looking.  There is a program underway to catalog Earth 
> crossing asteroids....

Yes, but they are looking for the *big* ones, not the measly little
hundred meter jobs. Detecting those would be nice, but if one hit it
wouldn't be much worse than a big nuke.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Added search to archives
Message-ID: <B8E2563E.3AD20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

I just integrated the htdig search engine into the tml archives.  Give it a
spin.

Now we just need to convert old tml archives into mailbox format and we'll
have all the archives back to 1994 online and searchable.

I'm looking for volunteers.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 16 23:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 16 22:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Suppression
Message-ID: <200204170555.WAA10726@ping.iii.com>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:

>In mail you write:
>
>>> Actually, no.  It's possible (mathematically, that is) to design a wormhole
>>> network that allows FTL travel, but does not result in time travel.  It's
>>> just that you will not be able to arbitrarily add wormholes.
>>> 
>>> In general, you can accomplish FTL without causality problems if there's 
>>> a privileged reference frame associated with FTL.  This means that all the
>>> wormholes have to share a reference frame.
>>
>> I'm a bit confused on this. Could you go into more detail? -Jim
>
>The existence of a preferred frame, means that laws of physics work
>differently in *that* frame than in other frames. Which violates the
>hell out of relativity and has other consequences as well. 

Well, it means that FTL works differently in that reference frame than
others; specifically, that reference frame is one in which all FTL transits
appear to take positive time.  It does mean that using FTL, the 
michealson-morley experiment will actually work and return an absolute
velocity relative to this reference frame.
>
>But if your drive only works in *that* reference frame or is otherwise
>"tied" to it, you don't have to woory about time travel and other problems.
>
>You *do* have to worry about explaining how it is that it just so
>happens that this section of the milky way is moving at the right speed
>in the right direction for FTL to be "easy" when it's very hard for the
>rest of the universe.

Note, however, that if you _create_ a wormhole network, the act of doing so
defines a preferred frame of reference.  As long as you don't/can't create
a second network (with a different reference frame), explaining this isn't
a problem (explaining the inability to create more than one network may
require some handwaving).

And the 'priveleged reference frame' doesn't have to be the same as the
speed of the milky way.  It means that some FTL trips will seem to take
negative time, but since the round trip time remains constant, no actual
causality violation can occur.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F101Yg83alUohIi6YEF00006b18@hotmail.com>

I'm cross posting this to the list and sending it directly to Bruce 
MacIntosh as well.

>Mr. Holmstrm,
>
>I'm a member of the TML and I recently ran across an old email you sent out 
>proposing rules for the building of chem-det lasers using Bruce Macintosh's 
>"MCS" starship combat rules.
>
>If you're still playing Traveller and it isn't an imposition on you, could 
>you tell me if you ever finished a final draft of your rules?

Ohh, I'm still playing Traveller/reading the TML. The short answer to your 
question is "sort of yes" but the long answer is more interesting. I tried 
to pick apart the NukeDet tables in FFS and the warhead table in MCS and 
reverse engineer the Frag and ChemDet warheads using MCS and FFS. The major 
problems are that the ChemDet and Frag warheads mentioned in MCS might be 
handwaved and lacks stats (mass/vol/price). More details on NukeDets in 
FFS1/2 would also help. The discussion below assumes that the reader knows 
FFS and MCS. If I'm unclear somewhere just yell.

Most of my argument uses this table from MCS:
>Type                    Pen:Damage     Defence Nuclear Det-Laser            
>                                            TL15    19:13           -7
>                TL13    18:12           -7
>                TL10    17:11           -7
>Chemical Det-Laser-13   13:10           -6
>Fragmentation KKMSIM-10 10:14           -3

If the ChemDets are supposed to have a PEN calue of 13 this means that it 
must have a FFS2 DV of at least 21 (assuming PEN = 10*DAM => MCS DAM 7). 
This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking about a 
X-ray laser to it needs to be at least TL13. MCS states that NukeDets has a 
penetration value of 20 times the FFS2 damage value (instead of the usual 
PEN = 10xDAM). Further it states that the warhead (as a whole) has twice the 
damage compared to the listed damage (per beam) in FFS2. This can be used to 
determine the yield of the NukeDets used in the MCS missile table. Note that 
all the warheads mass around 500 kg.

TL     Yield    Damage  Wt       Vol
10     100 kt    80     540 kg   270 l
13     200 kt    94     500 kg   250 l
15     500 kt   113     500 kg   250 l

From the PD modifiers in MCS I drew the conclusion that ChemDets detonate 
closer to their target than DetNukes and that Frags detonates even closer. 
At shorter distances the missile will be easier to hit but this works both 
ways. Every -1 on defence makes the missile twice as hard to hit (based on 
PD RoF modifiers).

Warhead      Eff.
NukeDet       1
ChemDet       2
Frag         16

To bring the damage of the ChemDet warhead up to DAM 10 we need to hit the 
target 3 times (compared with 2 for NukeDets)using 40Mj laser pulses. Since 
the ChemDet detonates at a more efficient distance we only have to use 67% 
as many lasing rods as on a NukeDet.

Here is where we run out of information. How many lasing rods are there in a 
NukeDet? Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow 
up) or something more powerful (that does)? Can a lasing rod (as used in 
NukeDets) also be used with chemicals? What is the cost/weight/volume of the 
lasing rod and tracking telescope?


There are two ways to handle this.

1. Assume that all warheads in the MCS missile list are 500 kg/250 l. The 
cost of the ChemDet warhead is anybody's guess but say 100 kCr. The ChemDet 
with PEN13 and DAM10 will represent the baseline warhead and can be modified 
as follows.

Modify weight and volume based on Tech Level.

TL  Wt and Vol mod
13   1.00
16   0.67

By changing the power and number of the lasing rods different warheads can 
be constructed. Change the PEN and DAM values and then apply the weight, 
volume and price modifiers. Each extra point can be added to either DAM or 
PEN but not to both.  Points can also be transferred (e.g. PEN+1/DAM-1) at 
no cost.

Bonus*   Wt, Vol and Price mod
+1          1.5  (1.46)
+2          2.0  (2.15)
+3          3.0  (3.16)
+4          4.5  (4.65)
+5          7.0  (6.81)
+6         10.0  (10.0)
For negative modifiers divide instead.

Examples

A TL11 ChemDet warhead (-2).
Pen = 13 - 1 = 12.
Dam = 10 - 1 = 9.
Wt = 500 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 500 kg.
Vol = 250 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 250 l.
Price = 100 / 2.0 = 50 kCr.

A TL13 Heavy ChemDet Warhead (+3).
Pen = 13 + 2 = 15.
Dam = 10 + 1 = 11.
Wt = 500 * 3.0 = 1500 kg.
Vol = 500 * 3.0 = 750 l.
Price = 100 * 3.0 = 300 kCr.


A +3 ChemDet warhead and a ring of imperial intervention is all a traveller 
needs. ;) The modifiers are based on the 6*log10 damage scale of MCS and the 
Chemical Lasing Cartridge efficiency table. I believe this gives reasonable 
numbers but one might want to differentiate the TL table a bit.


2. Running the numbers of a 500 kg warhead using standard components.

A 40Mj 10 cm X-ray focal array with 10'000 km effective range at TL13.
Focal area  : 0.007854 m2.
Focal vol   : 0.000314 m3.
Focal mass  : 0.314 kg.
Focal price : 31.4 Cr.

Input energy  : 61.54 Mj.
Cartridge wt  : 30.77 kg.
Cartridge vol : 3.127 l.
I can't find the listed price for CLC cartridges in FFS2 so I use FFS1 
figures instead.
Cartridge price : 1850 Cr.

The weight limitation allows 16 cartridges to be fitted.
Warhead Wt    : 497.3 kg.
Warhead Vol   : 55.06 l.
Warhead Price : 30 kCr.

The result a very cheap and compact warhead but I doubt that 16 cartridges 
are enough since a NukeDet probably has more than 24 lasing rods. Building 
the thing with TL15 will allow for 21 cartridges and TL16 gets us 35 (mainly 
due to better cartridges). To be completely legal the warhead would need a 
beampointer which adds ~1000 kg at TL13. With a beampointer it is hard to 
see how any of the beams could miss at all.

Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a lot. 
TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge? Double this?


Ideas/Comments are welcomed.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <smspbuchqpm8r3hqp3fk0il87igs8i7lvj@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20417.015401.9f1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> However, I want to point you back to the original point of discussion
> and the problem I was having with Tim Little's assertion that Jump
> Drives are inherently at 0 diameters of the jumping ship itself.  This
> may be true if one views the various limits as being imposed by
> gravity, but, in a past discussion, it was elegantly pointed out that
> tidal force more closely conforms to the 100 or 10 diameter limit for
> the various planetary types than does gravity.
>
> My point was that I believe that a body does not exert tidal force
> upon itself.  Rather, those forces only appear in relation to two
> separate bodies.  Therefore, a ship, otherwise outside the 100
> diameter limit of other system bodies (and the tidal forces upon it
> from those bodies is therefore negligible), does not exert a tide upon
> itself or, to give Tim his due, that those forces are compressional
> and are subsumed in the body's own gravitation.  Therefore, the Jump
> drive is not working in a 0 diameter condition.

Alas, any ship has to be treated as a collection of particles. And each
of those particles *does* exert forces on the others. And some could be
described as tidal forces. 

In any case the field will vary in weird and wonderful ways. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:42:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:42:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEDKDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20417.015559.9o2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hi,
>
>> There are "clusters". And it's *really* unlikely that any sizable body
>> will have a density much above Mercury's. At least in a "normal"
>> system. The planets that form around supernova remnants are likely to
>> be very different.
>
> Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

Yes, but it's above by less than .2 g/cm^3. Im' talking about the
likelihood of planet's with densitys 1, 2 or more g/cm^3 above earth's.

Also, the post I was replying to had the wrong density for Mercury, and
had it being denser than earth. I didn't check my references until
someone pointed out the error.

> Besides, what's "normal" ? Our solar system could be the odd one out, for
> all we know. Until we survey a few others, I'd say it was not a good idea to
> make assumptions concerning the frequency of systems like ours. Consider the
> size of our moon to the Earth, for example. If it hadn't have been for a
> body the size of Mars hitting the just-born Earth, the Earth would have been
> larger and the moon non-existent, with dramatic effects on evolution and
> culture thereafter. The chances of that collision happening may have been
> vanishingly small, making the Earth Moon system unique.

The sort of normalcy I'm talking about is based soely on elemental
abundances and the way a cloud of dust and gas collapses to form
planets. Which none of the recent discoveries have modified in a way
that affects the density of inner planets that aren't gas giants. 

You wind up with only three types of material to build planets from.
Ices, "stony" materials and nickel-iron and the few elements that like
to accumulate along with it in "melts". 

Once a body gets big enough, radioative decay (far more important
several billion years back and likely equally important in any
forming solar system due to supernovas helping "push" things together)
will cause first the "ices" to melt, which lets the grains of other
materials sink to the center. 

This gives a layer of ice over a layer of liquid over a loosely packed
core of stony material. Eventually as the radioactives decay it'll
freeze. 

If it's big enough, the stony part will melt and form various minerals.
And the stuff not soluble in alumina and silica will settle to the
center giving a nickel iron core.

Once enough planetismals come together, they start sweeping up any
others that get close. As well as remaining gas and dust. Big enough
collections become gas giants, brown dwarfs or even stars. 

Once a star lights up, it drives out the gas and dust from the inner
system, causing it to get collected by the larger of the planets
farther out. Which grow even bigger. 

It also tends to bake out the "ices" on inner system bodies unless they
are already small gas giants. This gets distributed to the outer system
as well. 

And depending on factors we aren't sure of, gas giants may slowly
spiral inward in many systems until the gas and dust that are slowing
them are gone. In the process they tend to absorb any planets that
formed in orbits inside of their original orbits (though they may also
eject some from the system).

In any case, the only way to *get* a nickel iron core is to be a body
larger enough to melt from internal heat, large enough to have a enough
nickel and iron, and small enough to not turn into a gas giant.

Such bodies will, due to simple elemental abundances, have *much* more
stony material than nickel-iron.

If they are small enough, and there are enough of them to form a "belt"
you'll get colisions fragmenting the surface and you could get an
exposed iron core. But that takes a pretty small body. 

Anything that's even a size 1 planet is way too big for that. 

So only systems with *really* skewed elemental abundances will have
worlds with densities much higher than Earth's. Or other *really* weird
situations. The pulsatr planets, rocky planets that are insanely close
to their primary (work out what would be left of Earth after a few
billion years at 0.1 AU from the sun, for example). etc.

> Finally, all non-jovian planets form from Supernova remnants. That's what
> (a) manufactures the heavier elements in the first place, and (b) creates a
> large cloud of particulate and gas that condenses to form a new star. The
> presence of anything above the lighter elements in the solar system implies
> that the Sun and its family owe their existence to the previous catastrophic
> death of a long dead star.
>
> If you are referring to oddities like pulsar planets here, then I'd agree
> they would probably be denser if they formed from debris. But then, its more
> likely that a pulsar has captured a body ejected from another system, as
> supernovas tend to clear the area near the site of the explosion and drive
> all the suitable accretion material well away from the pulsar itself. That
> Hubble image of the 1987A (?, can't remember the designation now) supernova
> remnant shows this in practice - a huge shockwave travelling at relativistic
> velocities away from the pulsar corem driving superheated gas and
> particulate with it.

Except that they are likely to have some sort of accretion disks of
matter that *didn't* reach escape velocity. That's apt to be
preferentially enriched with denser materials.

>> Ain't gonna happen. The abundance of materials in the cloud of dust and
>> gas a system forms from means that anything with a substantial iron
>> core will have a lot more rocky material overlying it.
>
> Just because it's less likely doesn't mean it won't happen. A few years ago,
> superjovians in the inner system were thought impossible, and then guess
> what they found ?

But that just showed that orbits weren't as stable as we thought, and
that large bodies might form close to where the star did. 

They are still gas giants in most respects.

> Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
> that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
> An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
> perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
> planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
> come up eventually.

Thing is, if it wasn't rare, we'd see more variation in densities of
objects in this system. Only bodies that get that dense are asteroid
fragments. 

The problem is managing to collect all that iron and then get *rid* of
all the *rock* that had to accumulate with it.

Rules of thumb are expected to work *most* of the time. and that's all
the 100 diameter limit is.

>> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
>> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
> Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
> in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
> superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

If they get big enough, that can't happen. so either they formed
farther out and moved in, or they were running a close second to the
body that became the star. 

>> I'm not going to quit indicating emphasis. And the alternatives are
>> asterisks or underlines and the asterisks are much easier to hit.
>
> Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
> message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
> need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
> all.

Sorry, but emphasis can change the meaning of a sentence. And convey
extra meaning. 

>> Yes, it's harder to read a sentence where you individually emphasize
>> each word with them. But that's not what I'm doing.
>
> No, but it made the point - the *'s draw your eyes to particular key words
> and make the sentence harder to read.

Harder for *you*, maybe. You are the only person I've ever heard make
such an argument. And I'm far from the only person who uses them. 

Also, they don't draw my eyes to such words. They modify the emphasis
as I reach the word. They don't "pull" my eyes on ahead.

By your argument, I shouldn't use emphasis in speaking either. And
that's just plain silly.

>> As for patronizing, I'm not responsible for what you read into what I
>> write.
>
> Hah ! Have you ever thought of a career in politics ? :-)
>
> Seriously, if you decide to emphasize particular words, then you are
> attempting to enforce those words and colour the interpretation of the
> sentence, which is what emphasis is all about anyway. Take the sentence
> above, "it's *really* unlikely" - there was no need to emphasize the word
> "really" here at all. The wording was more than sufficient. All you achieved
> was to add a dismissive/patronising tone, as if to say "it's so unlikely
> that it's not even worth considering, so I am not going to".

I emphasized it because if I was speaking I'd stress that word. That's
not being patronizing, that's saying that I consider it very, very
unlikely. Without resorting to overly awkward phrasing. 

>> Whatever it is, it's something that *has* to vary with the inverse cube
>> of the distance. Which means that if it's not tidal acceleration, it's
>> something that will be directly proportional to it.
>
> Why does it have to vary with the inverse cube of the distance ? That
> automatically makes the assumption that I argued against, which is "just
> because the figures fit it must be right".

Work it out for yourself. Any "force" that is the same at X diameters
(where X <>1) from bodies of different sizes *does* vary by the cube of
the distance.  That's the way the geometry works. See below.

> I'd agree that the tidal figures
> being identical for a given density across all world sizes seems convincing,
> until you remember that densities are not going to be uniform at all. Then
> the "figures matching" evidence breaks down (IIRC, Larger rocky/terrestrial
> worlds are likely to have a higher density, as their proto-cores must have
> been more massive during accretion to gain the additonal mass in the first
> place - therefore as you go from UWP Size 1 to A, the density is likely to
> increase, and the tidal force likewise).

Except that back when the 100 diameter ruke was set forth, all the
rules for calculating things about planets explicitly stated that you
were to assume that they had the same density.

Check out the reprints of the first three books.

> Might it not make more sense to say that 100 diameters was a simplification
> for the game, and an arbitrary value, rather than cook the Physics books to
> justify it ? If you are going to make a "realistic-feel" limit for Jump
> Drives, it would make more sense to define it in terms of the gravitational
> field strength and forget the diameters thing entirely, except maybe as a
> passing comment such as "for Earth this occurs at 100 planetary diameters".

Work out the field strength at 100 diameters for size 1 thru 10 planets
assuming densities similar to that of earth or even Mars. The figures
are *way* off. 

Since field strength varies by inverse *square*, but mass varies as the
*cube* of the diameter, you get huge differences. 

Call the mass of a size 1 world 1. And the field strength at 100
diameters 1. 

A size 10 world has 1000 times the mass (volune is proprotional to the
cube of the size). It's 10 times bigger, which makes 100 diameters, 10
times as big as with the size one world. So we have 1000 times the mass
but only 10 times the distance. With an inverse square law, that means
the force would be 1000/(10^2) stronger.

X = KM/R^2

So the field strength at 100 diameters from a size 10 world is ten
times that of the strength at 100 diameters from a size 1 world of the
same density.

To get density differences to make up the differences, the *larger*
world would have to be 1/10th as dense as the *smaller* world. And that
ain't gonna happen.

If the force varies by the inverse *cube*, then you've got 1000 times
the mas at 10 times the distance, but instead of X=KM/R^2, you've got
X=KM/R^3. 

So you've got 1000/(10^3) = 1

*That* is why it has to depend on the inverse cube. 

I worked out the fact that inverse cube was needed *before* I knew that
tidal forces followed an inverse cube law.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:43:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:43:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b8e294f89b54@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20417.014254.3E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 7:00 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>  > The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also
>>>  true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to
>>>  another will depend on how far apart they are.
>>
>>You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
>>depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
>>ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
>>forces).
>
> I'm not sure what force you are talking about.  The force on any one 
> part of the ship is the force of gravity.  Tidal forces are the 
> relative difference in forces between different parts of an object.

The "tidal forces" are due to a combination of gravity *and* motion. 

Remember, the ship is assumed to be in "free fall" (ie freely
responding to gravity in some sort of orbit) when you figure the tidal
acceleration due to the body the ship is orbiting (Note: I'm using
"orbit" loosely, to include things like parabolic and hyperbolic
trajectories) 

The "tidal forces" are due to differences in the strength of the
primary's field and due to the motion of the ship in it's orbit.

The magnitude of the forces depends not on the size of the *orbiting*
body, but on the distance from the center of mass of that body, and
what direction you are from the center relative to the line connecting
primary and satellite.

So, at a given distance from earth, the tidal forces at the center of
mass of a ship due to Earth will be *zero*. At they will increase as
you move away from that point. The direction and magnitude of the
forces depends on the distance from that center and upon the direction
relative to the line joining that point to the center of the Earth.

Anything "attached" to the ship is subject to those forces. 

The forces will be the same at 100 meters in a given direction from the
center of the ship whether the ship is a tiny scout with a pole
sticking out in that direction or or 1 km long ship with that point
being inside the ship.

Secondary effects due to the mass distribution of the ship will modify
those forces. But it's not the "size" of the ship per se that
determines the strength or direction of the forces.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:43:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:43:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCECFCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
> How penetrating is ionising radiation in general?

Alpha particles will be stopped by skin (will travel 5-7cm in air).
Ingested alpha emitters are problematic, though.

Beta particles travel 2-8m in air. They might actually traverse
the abdominal or chest wall, if you're really thin.

Gamma rays have a half thickness (50% attenuation) of 12cm of water.
Fast neutrons (energy of more than 500keV) have greater
penetration than gammas.

The fudge factor I suggested accounts for the increased radiosensitivity of
the ovary.

Their location is irrelevant as the most likely radiation types encountered
will be gamma radiation, neutrons and cosmic rays.

David Summers wrote :-
> I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the
> fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
Damn shame, that <g>.


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:45:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:45:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F169fBi0SHfgcSoVW04000117c4@hotmail.com>

Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to 
enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?

This concept is pretty palatable in the US, because there has to be 
jurisdiction for a court to hear a case and due process is constitutionally 
guaranteed.  But is that necessarily the case in the Imperium?

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 08:45:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 17 07:45:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8e293c05231@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204170923130.29728-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, David P. Summers wrote:
> Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can 
> easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the 
> skin (or more than a meter or two of air).

Hm, don't alpha particles have even less range than beta? I remember
something like centimeter scale ranges in air.

Of course, they won't penetrate the skin. Still, if you get them into your
body, they are mighty dangerous: the heavier the particle, the greater the
damage. (Alpha particles are helium nuclei, that is, two protons and two
neutrons, and about 8000 times more massive than electrons which make up
beta radiation.)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:19:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:19:24 2002
Subject: [TML] The L-E Digest?
Message-ID: <F82qi8VjUwZcSlVviFl0000bd6b@hotmail.com>

In mail, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) asked:

>Nah, if everyone who goofed did that who'd be posting? :-)

<tongue-in-cheek>
Um, just you?
</tongue-in-cheek>

Jeff.
"Who ordered the Meat Feast with extra Bantha?" - Pizza the Hutt.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:21:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:21:06 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20416.220459.6d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Check out how much space *8* tons (mass) of liquid oxygen takes up.
>
> I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?
>
> When I scoop ice from an iceball, I get lots of hydrogen in the form
> of water.  Water is a more compact way to store hydrogen than LH2.  So
> I *keep* the water.  I run the ammonia, methane, or some more water
> through the fuel processor to fill up the smaller LH2 tanks (possibly
> extracting some nitrogen for life support), throw away all the
> methane, and either keep or throw away the ammonia.

You want it because you were making such a fuss about not being able to
use oxygen to convert methane to water and CO2 because you'd lose the
oxygen if you threw away the CO2.

Also, what version of Traveller are you running? Most version have jump
fuel being the majority of the tankage?

>> And you'll have to have to have *seperate* tanks for the 9 tons of
>> water, the 8 tons of LOX, and the 1 ton of LH2.
>
> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
> over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
> LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
> unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
> paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.

Only if the *mass* of the ship doesn't matter in your TU. Because you
are using 9 times the *mass* even if the tank is smaller. Which will
have a major impact on performance.

> The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
> volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
> water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
> upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.

Only at the cost of *not* being able to refuel by scopping at a gas
giant. The atmosphere is 90%+ hydrogen. So unless you carry along all
that extra oxygen (LOX is the easiest way to do so) you can't use
it. Not unless you can store it as LH2. Which you can't do in the water
tanks.

>> Oh yeah, actually, the odds are you'd seperate the methane *first*,
>> simply because it will be the first component of the mix to turn
>> into a gas.
>
> Yep, mainly so I can get rid of it before putting it in the tanks at
> all.  Ammonia I can deal with later, since I don't need highly
> expensive long-term cryogenic tanks to hold ammonia solution.  I can
> separate it later if I want.

No, but you can't use the water for drinking, and it needs special
handling as ammonia water is corrosive.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:21:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:21:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416142704.009f1b40@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20416.223451.7R6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson writes:
> <Probably not, though if you assume that 'sand' is really 'chaff' it would 
> work
> reasonably well against just about any weapon.>
>
> Ok, what is the difference between sand and chaff?  I always that chaff was 
> strips of foil cut to a particular length of the
> wavelength of a radar, and the sand in a sandcaster used particles of the 
> correct size to interact with the laser wavelength.  I thought they were 
> the same process.

Nope. The particle size for light wavelengths is *way* too fine. And
the mechanism would be rather different anyway.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <B8E1FB2C.3AB08%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20416.221609.5h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 4/16/02 3:50 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:
>
>> No, I have *separate* (your emphasis, though I have no idea why) tanks
>> for LH2 and H2O.  The LH2 is enough to initiate jump with a bit left
>> over, and after entering jump I use the fuel processor to refill the
>> LH2 tank from the H2O tank.  The H2O tank holds 50% more hydrogen per
>> unit volume than the LH2 tank.  I use the space saved to hold more
>> paying freight, paying passengers, cargo, or just more jump fuel.
>> 
>> The whole *point* of this exercise is to hold more hydrogen per unit
>> volume.  As an added bonus, the crew gets more than ample air and
>> water for their own use after processing, thus easing the dependence
>> upon life support recycling.  It's a win-win situation.
>> 
>
> Just curious, but what about storing H2 as hydrides?  Don't you get a higher
> density?

But an even worse *mass* penalty than water, ammonia or methane.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:26:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:26:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1018999846.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20416.223754.8r1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>> 
>> The particles take a fair amount of energy to melt. While molten they
>> continue to retro-reflect part of the beam and disperse the rest.
>> 
>> They take even more energy to vaporize and form a plasma easily. The
>> plasma is opaque to laser energy and absorbs even *more* of the beam
>> energy.
>
> Now, let's consider a typical example: a typical TTL13 X-ray laser.
> It focuses to a beam 1 cm wide, with an unclear duration; we'll
> assume 100 milliseconds, as that will avoid significant problems with
> the beam impact point moving.  The total beam energy is on the order
> of 400 megajoules, and has a damage value (T4) of 50.

That's a *pulse* energy.

> The target is a 200 dton sphere, with a cross-section of 240 square meters. 
> One can at AV 50 is 320 kilograms.  Since the beam has a cross-section of
> 0.0001 m^2, it actually strikes 0.13 grams of sand.
>
> As it happens, X-rays can go through that much material without even worrying
> about getting it out of the way.  Ignoring that, if we assume the 'sand' is
> synthetic diamond, it has a heat of vaporization of 8 kilojoules.  Further
> ignoring the fact that X-rays don't generally reflect very well, through a
> variety of tricks we'll argue that the actual energy of vaporization is 1
> megajoule (125x greater).
>
> 399 megajoules to go.  Well, perhaps the vapor is opaque.

Well, plasmas tend to be very opaque to many wavelengths. Obviously,
you tune the composition of the "sand" to enhance this.

> Let's add another
> megajoule to the vapor, heating it up to some obscene temperature, and assume
> that 90% of the absorbed energy is lost to immediate reradiation.  The
> remaining 100 kilojoules causes the gas in the path of the laser to explode
> outwards, with an average velocity of 39 kilometers per second.  1 
> microsecond
> later, the plasma has had its density drop by a factor of around 10, which
> should allow the X-rays to shine through.  Since the power output is 4
> megajoules per microsecond, the total energy absorbed by the sand is maybe 5
> megajoules.  Gee, only another 80x increase in efficiency and we'll actually
> stop the beam.

Excuse me? 4 megajoules per microsecond is 4 *terawatts* beam beam. 

A 4 megajoule *pulse that lasts a microsecond *is* apt to get stopped.
Or at least badly dispersed.

>> Well, in space, outside of low orbit, stuff like sand and "smoke" tend
>> to be rather more effective, because they don't get left behind. 
>
> Well, if you don't use any thrust and use gravetics to prevent the stuff from
> wandering, sure.

Check the rules. Sand is *specificly* described as getting left behind
if you accelerate.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:27:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:27:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20416.232156.7Z0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Dear Folks -
>
> In his latest Open Letter, Howard Tayler (of Schlock Mercenary fame, see 
> <http://www.schlockmercenary.com/>) mentions that US citizens have to file 
> their tax returns by _today_ (which was April 15 in the letter).
>
> Now, over here, our financial year runs fron July 1 to June 30, and 
> although we can put in our tax returns straight away, we have until the 
> end October to do it. The idea is that you can't say how much you earned 
> for a financial year until after you've earned it.
>
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
> timetable works??

For normal people, the tax year runs from Jan 1 to Dec 31. Employers
have until Jan 31 to get the W-2 forms (which show how much you made
and how much tax was withheld) to you. And you've got until April 15th
to file your taxes for the year that ended Dec 31.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:29:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:29:07 2002
Subject: [TML] How much is that in credits?
References: <20416.150551.5I5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <00ec01c1e624$f8803f10$1f9e15ac@warrior>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] How much is that in credits?


> In mail you write:
>
> > ObTrav:  There is a (Star Trek created?) stereotype of
> > the engineer who can fix anything but no one can tell
> > how he does it.  What other stereotypes are common in
> > your games?
>
> The "engineer as wizard" stereotype has existed *at least* as long as
> widespread use of steam engines. And some would argue it goes back to
> the old seige engineers of medieval and Roman times.
>

I seem to remember reading somewhere that early artillerists were considered
practioneers of black magic :)



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:57:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:57:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Quck Query on US Tax Returns
In-Reply-To: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>; from david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au on Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:56:56AM +1000
References: <OFBCC7A01E.D918F33C-ONCA256B9D.0082A1B5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020416192131.A14539@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 09:56:56AM +1000,
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> 
> Can one of the TML's US citizens clear up for me how their system's 
> timetable works??

You've until 15 April to post your tax return--that is, the
calculation of how much you owe or are owed--for the _last_ year.  So
a few weeks back I posted my return for 1 January-31 December '01.
Ended up owing money, which annoys a lot of people, but not me.

Why?  Because I held onto that money for the duration of the year, and
thus could earn interest on it.  Getting a tax return from the gov't
is another way of saying that you lent it some great sum without
interest.  Who'd want to do that?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The English love making fun of foreigners, whose mere existence they
regard as an enormous jest.                             --Iain Pears

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 09:59:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 08:59:45 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020416231641.82811.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417083837.009f5b80@mindspring.com>

At 09:16 AM 4/17/02 +1000, you wrote:

>Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
>are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
>pointy stick :)

Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future leader of men?  :P


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"What are we gonna do tonight Brain?"
"the same thing we do every 4 years Pinky,
Judge Olympic Figure Skating!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 10:01:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 09:01:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half 
>of the original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has 
>elapsed, 1/4 decay in the next half-life period, 1/8 in the 
>half-life after that, etc.
>

then it's not possible to accelerate *any* mesons at all, 
given their half-life.  Almost all of them would be gone 
before they got to the end of the accelerator.

Please contact Los Alamos and inform them that the meson 
accelerator that they have been using since 1968 is a fake.  
It sends beams of mesons out without irradiating the 
accelerator.  The only items that become "hot" are in the 
target area.  Please explain how that is done.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 10:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Apr 17 09:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
Message-ID: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com>

I can think of one good reason for ships to ignore their own '100D Limit', 
the Solomani beating the Vilani, Starships to refuel from Gas Giants, 
Stewards et al to earn seemingly inflated wages and a whole host of other 
'unrealistic' issues with the Official Traveller Universe...

It is a GAME - it is meant to be FUN.

Yes, we can enjoy trying to 'prove' or 'disprove' various facets of 
Traveller "life" based on current knowledge, but please remember that:
(a)not everybody really cares if it is possible in RealLife(tm) to dodge a 
laser 'fired' by someone standing five feet away,
(b)Earth is flat/the center of the Universe; man will never travel quicker 
than 25mph without suffocating; man will never reach the moon; Einstein's 
"Special THEORY of Relativity" is, um, a theory...
(c)we know more now than the Great Ancient Ones wrote the LBBs.

It could just be me, but I sometimes get the impression that we get a little 
wrapped up in discussing the technical aspects of the game and forget that 
it is "just a game".
There is much more information available in the 'public domain' than when 
the first edition of "Traveller" left the printers.  We seem to have people 
from nearly all walks of life in the TML membership (except Lawyers:-), so 
we have a much greater depth and breadth of experience an knowledge to draw 
upon.

Or, to quote the Wise Old Bird...

"Because it is artistically *right*..."

Whinge over, I now return you to your previous incarnations...

Jeff
(By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how 
much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight 
slows the game a little..?)

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 10:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 09:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204171605.EGN07388@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Doug gives advice:

>>Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
>>are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
>>pointy stick :)
>
>Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future 
>leader of men?  :P
>

God help them.  I'm almost of the opinion that officers 
should be enlisted first.  Even academy cadets should 
complete 2 years before going to the academy.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:36:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:36:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not?
In-Reply-To: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204171212050.4680-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Jeff Rowse wrote:
> It is a GAME - it is meant to be FUN.

But these discussions ARE fun!

> (a)not everybody really cares if it is possible in RealLife(tm) to dodge a 
> laser 'fired' by someone standing five feet away,

Nobody really has to care; the discussion can and should be ignored
whenever it gets in the way of actually playing the game.  Very few posts
to this list are accompanied by the message, "Warning: we recommend
avoiding Traveller until this issue is resolved.  Proceed at yourown risk."

> (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how 
> much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight 
> slows the game a little..?)

Roll to see if I eat your spleen.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:37:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:37:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020417203822.1ab3cb30.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Roseberry wrote:
> Izzat standard or discount cost? ;)
> Architects fees? Anyone?

Slartibartfast

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20416.223754.8r1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019061859.2225.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
>
> > 399 megajoules to go.  Well, perhaps the vapor is opaque.
> 
> Well, plasmas tend to be very opaque to many wavelengths. Obviously,
> you tune the composition of the "sand" to enhance this.

Right, I'm assuming this.
> 
> Excuse me? 4 megajoules per microsecond is 4 *terawatts* beam beam. 

Sure.  A 400 megajoule pulse lasting 100 microseconds.
> 
> A 4 megajoule *pulse that lasts a microsecond *is* apt to get stopped.
> Or at least badly dispersed.

Agreed.  The problem is we have a 400 megajoule pulse that lasts 100
microseconds.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:47:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:47:44 2002
Subject: [TML] LAMPF - a meson facility!
In-Reply-To: <200204170105.EFJ07268@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019061201.9084.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> ObTrav:  After your ship is hit by a meson weapon, assuming 
> you're still alive, is the ship a radioactive wreck?

Not in the area people are still alive.  Energy required to make appreciably
radioactive far exceeds energy required to kill.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:48:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:48:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F169fBi0SHfgcSoVW04000117c4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019060914.2767.ajackson@ping>

Sam D writes:
> Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to 
> enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?

No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in state
courts work.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:49:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:49:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019061329.2060.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> then it's not possible to accelerate *any* mesons at all, 
> given their half-life.  Almost all of them would be gone 
> before they got to the end of the accelerator.

Nah.  The half-life of charged mesons is sufficiently long that if you generate
them in the accelerator, they can be accelerated to a reasonable energy before
too many of them decay.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 12:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 11:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not?
Message-ID: <20020417185524.030254508@mo120usjc.palm.net>

Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
__________
>On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Jeff Rowse wrote: 
>> It is a GAME - it is meant to be FUN. 
>But these discussions ARE fun! 

In a bizzare fashion, yes.  They do tend to chase down rat holes self-repecting rats would turn their noses up at.

Trust me on this. Not only have I been down those rat holes, I've given tours and probably have squatters rights by now.

>> (a)not everybody really cares if it is possible in RealLife(tm) to dodge a  
>> laser 'fired' by someone standing five feet away, 
>Nobody really has to care; the discussion can and should be ignored 
>whenever it gets in the way of actually playing the game.  Very few posts 
>to this list are accompanied by the message, "Warning: we recommend 
>avoiding Traveller until this issue is resolved.  Proceed at yourown risk." 
> 
>> (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how  
>> much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight  
>> slows the game a little..?) 
>Roll to see if I eat your spleen. 

Ah...but they let you use your Really KEWL medical rules.  Break out the transplant rules!

"Wadda yous mean you shoot out his liver!?! Doc sez I'm on da wagon till I get a new one.  If you think I'm mean drunk, wait to see me in a DT fit."

> 
>	Gregory Kettler 
>	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before." 
>			--Dave, KODT 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New Filk
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417092008.009ea920@mindspring.com>

I put this up on my Live Journal, but it didn't get much response there, so 
I'd thought I'd post it here.

Flaming Eye

To the tune of "The Red Queen" by Leigh Ann Hussey
(note: the scansion and exact wording were lifted from the Annwn version of 
Bob Kanefsky's "Black Flag" parody, so there may be slight variations from 
the original.)


And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space
Lift up your mugs and cheer
We'll put the Terrans in their place
We're Vilani privateers

Full three thousand years and more we owned all these suns
'Till the bloody Terrans barged right in and put us on the run
But not all have bended knee, some of us are roaming free
A hidden fight that's the key, fought with blade and gun

(Chorus)
And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space
Lift up your mugs and cheer
We'll put the Terrans in their place
We're Vilani privateers
With the plasma beams burning blue
We'll burn that freighter through and through
Take the ship and kill the crew
Beware the flaming eye

Now some try to change their fate with money no longer theirs
And others try to awe by putting on stately airs
But nothing can change the fate
Of peasant or of potentate
Out the lock they go, for no one really cares

(Chorus)

We hear they're hunting us, we think that's OK
We're all itching for the chance to blow traitors away
The Terran Navy, it's to laugh
It's Vilani hulls, by more than half
We know the tricks of the battle staff, and quietly slip away

(Chorus)

It's "target lo! hard a' port, making for the jumping line"
Of escorts or Q ship tricks there isn't any sign
We'll cut that freighter's hull apart
And sell off all the useful parts
Including all the crewmens' hearts, if we make market on time

(Chorus)

And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space . . .

(Instrumental)

And we sell the loot
And we sell our slaves
Awash in riches we party on for days
Then the Captain calls us all back on board
The patrols are getting closer
Our war goes on even as we get old
It won't end until I'm good and dead and cold
Even then I'll live on in my comrades' eyes
Or as a meal, our shugulli's real
And he's already come to look me over

(slowly)
And it's whey hey we're the scourge of space . . .

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20416.192354.1u3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEEDDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> >> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were 
> "boiled" off.
> >
> > Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
> > a nitpick.
> 
> I was going by the figures in the post I was responding to, which had a
> higher density listed for Mercury.

No, they didn't. I quoted 5.43 for Mercury, 5.52 for Earth.

Regds

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:34:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:34:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20417.014121.1p5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
>> There's nothing magical about timed delay.  Those lifetimes are for
>> mesons that are *not* in motion.
>
> They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half of the
> original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has elapsed, 1/4 decay in
> the next half-life period, 1/8 in the half-life after that, etc.

Also, 1/4 decay in *half* the half-life. And 1/8 decay in half of
*that*. Etc.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 13:35:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 12:35:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020416222132.009fa690@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20417.024825.4W7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>         I appreciate the comments of everyone who has replied to my initial 
> post.  I gather that sandcasters would work best
> against optical wavelengths and might require a lot of sand, but are not 
> entirely infeasible.  Particle beams and X-ray lasers appear to be another 
> kettle of fish entirely.  Years ago, before the internet, before I knew 
> anyone besides myself might be interested in space combat, I checked out a 
> copy of The Effects of Nuclear Weapons.  In it I found some interesting 
> tables on the 1/2 value thickness of various material versus various forms 
> of radiaton.  The 1/2 value thickness for X-rays was approximately 20 grams 
> per square cm for heavy metals.  But that was for a solid plate of 
> iron.  If the beam had to pass through a long distance (a few hundred 
> meters) would that make any difference?  I am wondering if a long 
> scattering distance would reduce the required density.

Actually, as long as there are 20 grams of heavy metal in a 1 cm square
column between you and the x-ray source, it still work. Doesn't matter
if the column is 1 mm tall or 1 km tall. 

That's how the atmosphere can shield from x-rays. It's not very dense,
but there's a *lot* of it. 

Ditto for how smoke blocks sight. It's a bunch of *really* fine
particles. Not much density, but there are so many that any light
trying to get to you from the other side always runs into a particle. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:47:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:47:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84@aol.com>

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In a message dated 16/04/02 18:28:14 GMT Daylight Time, 
texasredshift@hotmail.com writes:


> At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
> Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
> judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
> 
> Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
> Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?
> 
> What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?
> 
> Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
> 

I have to say that in MTU (and I make no claim that this is transferable to 
anyone elses) there is no such thing as Imperial law in the sense of 
statutes. Instead all decisions are driven by the precedent of rulings by 
Emperors, or their legitimate servants, on the same (or similar) subjects. 

The role of lawyers is to argue precedent or to force the passage of decision 
up the hierarchy of courts until precedent is set. Theoretically the final 
arbiter is the current Emperor, who can set new precedents or overturn old 
ones. Practically the Emperor delegates this role to selected nobles and to 
the moot except in exceptional circumstances.

My courts apply the same burden of proof in both civil and criminal cases, in 
my case "on the balance of probabilities" rather than "beyond reasonable 
doubt". Juries are not a recognised concept and instead panels of nobles 
ranging from one to the entire moot, depending on the case, make decisions 
after hearing argument. It does not take a genius to work out that the system 
is highly open to abuse.

There is no real distinction between civil and criminal law at the Imperial 
level. Instead all cases are treated in the same way and dealt with through 
the same channels. The main difference is that in some cases precedent holds 
that the court should appoint Imperial investigators to gather evidence. In 
other cases the burden of investigation lies entirely with the litigant. 
 
Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

--part1_cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 16/04/02 18:28:14 GMT Daylight Time, texasredshift@hotmail.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">At the base of this topic is one key issue:&nbsp; How litigous is the Imperium?<BR>
Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?&nbsp; Or are lawsuits rare and<BR>
judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?<BR>
<BR>
Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?<BR>
Is jury trial available?&nbsp; Are judges elected? Appointed?<BR>
<BR>
What does canon have to say on this?&nbsp; What do you have to say?<BR>
<BR>
Bill Scheets aka "Tex"<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I have to say that in MTU (and I make no claim that this is transferable to anyone elses) there is no such thing as Imperial law in the sense of statutes. Instead all decisions are driven by the precedent of rulings by Emperors, or their legitimate servants, on the same (or similar) subjects. <BR>
<BR>
The role of lawyers is to argue precedent or to force the passage of decision up the hierarchy of courts until precedent is set. Theoretically the final arbiter is the current Emperor, who can set new precedents or overturn old ones. Practically the Emperor delegates this role to selected nobles and to the moot except in exceptional circumstances.<BR>
<BR>
My courts apply the same burden of proof in both civil and criminal cases, in my case "on the balance of probabilities" rather than "beyond reasonable doubt". Juries are not a recognised concept and instead panels of nobles ranging from one to the entire moot, depending on the case, make decisions after hearing argument. It does not take a genius to work out that the system is highly open to abuse.<BR>
<BR>
There is no real distinction between civil and criminal law at the Imperial level. Instead all cases are treated in the same way and dealt with through the same channels. The main difference is that in some cases precedent holds that the court should appoint Imperial investigators to gather evidence. In other cases the burden of investigation lies entirely with the litigant. <BR>
 <BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death</FONT></HTML>

--part1_cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:48:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:48:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <20417.014121.1p5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net> <20417.014121.1p5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020418082417.B31848@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Also, 1/4 decay in *half* the half-life. And 1/8 decay in half of
> *that*. Etc.

A minor quibble -- 30% decay in the first half of the half life, and
16% decay in 1/4 of the half-life.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:49:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:49:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F169fBi0SHfgcSoVW04000117c4@hotmail.com> from "Sam D" at Apr 17, 2002 02:39:00 PM
Message-ID: <200204172127.g3HLRW601938@localhost.uia.net>

> Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to 
> enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?
> 
> This concept is pretty palatable in the US, because there has to be 
> jurisdiction for a court to hear a case and due process is constitutionally 
> guaranteed.  But is that necessarily the case in the Imperium?

I'm not sure how exactly this would tie in to Traveller, however, there
is a strange situation which has cropped up recently with NAFTA (the
north american free trade agreement). Apparently, there's a section
which states that if nation A (or a jurisdiction thereof) passes a
law which impinges upon the profits (or future profitability) of a
company based in nation B but doing business in nation A, then the
company can sue nation A. The real trick is that this doesn't go
to a court of nation A or nation B. Instead, it goes to a private
three-judge tribunal, one judge appointed from each nation, and
the third judge (the chairman of the tribunal) being appointed by
both. Their proceedings are secret (no reporters allowed), and they
routinely hand out multi-million dollar judgements.

As just one recent example, there's a gasoline additive formerly
used in California which helps oxygenate the gas and helps it
burn more cleanly. However, the stuff is toxic, and one drop
getting into the groundwater can ruin acres of water. So California
decided to phase the stuff out. However, the Canadian company that
produces it cried foul, sued through NAFTA, and if my understanding
is correct, the 3-judge tribunal sided with them.

The reason the US wanted this special tribunal in place is because
we don't trust the Mexican courts, however, we've already used the
same tactic against Mexico. Again, if my understanding is correct,
an American company paid kickbacks to some officials in the
Mexican government to obtain a permit to use a certain area of
their land as a waste dump (not sure if it's a toxic dump or what).
Anyway, so the locals got angry and passed a local ordinance to
stop what the company was doing. So the company sued Mexico through
NAFTA and won.

From what little I've read, the Mexicans are unhappy about this
whole situation, the Canadians are uneasy, and the USA is a bit
conflicted, some people claiming that private business should not
have to shoulder the costs of environmental protection while others
point out that in the first example, if the company producing the
gasoline additive were based in the USA, it would not have been able
to sue California for passing a law to phase out the additive, but
because the company was Canadian, it could sue through NAFTA, the
net result being that foreign companies have more rights than
domestic. So basically, NAFTA seems to make it better to do business
abroad than to do business at home, and it also makes it much more
difficult for politicians to pass environmentally protective laws
because of the potential legal/financial ramification brought by
foreign companies who's nations are signators to the treaty.

How all this relates to Traveller, I'm not sure. It may be that
worlds will use a system of treaties and joint tribunals to
negotiate their legal disputes. However, because of the canonical
existence of the nobility and the existance of subsector and sector
government, I would tend to find it more likely that there would
be a level to the Imperial judicial system which supercedes the
authority of nation-worlds. This is a bit tricky, because it takes
some degree of sovereignty away from individual worlds, so how
exactly one would draw the lines is an interesting question.
Somebody should really write a book or article focusing on the
Imperial legal system, preferably somebody already well versed in
International Law, but also mindful of, say, late Roman history
or whatever society people would consider analogous to the Imperial
model.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:51:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:51:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417010106.E5149279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204180015090.24858-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Stephen Tempest writes:

>Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Somewhere around 1,500 quadrillions would be my guess (15 trillion people
with an average of Cr10,000).

Andrew Jackson wirtes:

>Hm...my figure seems to be at 103PCr/year, which is well within the margin of
>error.  Of course, there's a fairly significant problem with the old Atlas of
>the Imperium data -- there's only around 9,000 imperial worlds, not the 11,000
>there's supposed to be.

Do you mean 9,000 systems rather than the 10,000 there's supposed to be?
IIRC the figures are 11,000 worlds in 10,000 systems, implying quite a lot
of systems with multiple worlds (But don't ask me to back this up with a
quote, I've no idea where I got that notion). I admit that we've seen
precious little evidence of multiple worlds elsewhere in canon (But when I
get around to doing my planned writeup of Deneb, I'm going to change
that).


Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:53:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:53:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20020417010106.E5149279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417165617.00a9ea90@mail.pi.se>

Hello everyone!

>Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

<snip>

>Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
>that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
>An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
>perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
>planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
>come up eventually.

There is a simple way to make planets more dense without changing the basic 
composition. Bigger terrestrial worlds will have higher density because of 
compression, which is far more effective for bigger bodies. Just adding 
more rock will make the rock more dense.

Earth has a compressed density higher than Mercury, but the uncompressed 
density is considerably less. If a planet had the composition of Mercury 
and the radius of Earth, which potentially could happen in an decently 
iron-rich inner system with a major collision between two large rocky 
worlds, that planet would have even greater density than Mercury has, say, 
somewhere between 6 and 6.5. If a world with the composition of Earth is 
50% greater in radius it also would likely have higher density than Earth.

On the other hand, if we think of an Earth-size world with the composition 
of Mars, it would still have a density of say, 4.5 to 5. I'd argue a more 
common problem in RPGs is that densities for Earth-like worlds are too low. 
(Big world with low density to generate decent gravity-style.)

If we list some solar system bodies, with the compressed density first and 
the uncompressed density afterwards:

Mercury 5.4     5.3
Venus   5.2     4.3
Earth           5.5     4.5
Moon            3.3     3.2
Mars            3.9     3.8

Incidentally, this also means that the GURPS divisions into say, "low-iron" 
and "medium-iron" worlds is rather non-useful for terrestrial worlds of 
differing sizes than Earth.

When it comes to high densities, superjovians, brown dwarves and red dwarf 
stars are other examples of where a 100D-radius may be considerably 
different from a version based on tidal differential force. A small red 
dwarf star can have a density 50-100 times higher than the Sun - or any 
material on Earth, for that matter. A medium-size brown dwarf more than a 
billion years old could easily have a density several times greater than 
Earths average.

> > The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> > much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
>Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
>in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
>superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

A possible other reason is that Mercury experienced, just like Earth, major 
impacts which blew off quite a deal of the surface.

When it comes to hot superjovians, their escape velocity due to high 
gravity is enough to keep gasses from escaping. Those gas giants 
will  probably be bigger in radii than normal outer system gas giants can 
be, because of the energy they receive from the star. There was a nice 
paper on 51 Pegasi's inner planet, but I can't find it right now. If anyone 
is interested, mail me off-list and I'll provide the link when I find it...

>Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
>message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
>need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
>all.

I believe emphasis has its points, but emphasizing too many words, say one 
in ten, makes posts difficult to read without reading in a "tone" of the 
post. I usually overemphasize like _this_ far too often. ,-)

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:54:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:54:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20417.024825.4W7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019073068.7515.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Actually, as long as there are 20 grams of heavy metal in a 1 cm square
> column between you and the x-ray source, it still work. Doesn't matter
> if the column is 1 mm tall or 1 km tall. 

Doesn't really need to be heavy metal, heavy elements are a bit better, but the
difference is not terribly impressive.  However, a really thick barrier might
reduce the ability to penetrate armor by refraction, not sure to what degree
X-rays can be refracted without being absorbed.

20g/cm^2 sounds a bit high for typical x-rays, though.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:55:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:55:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <3cbe8c81.14262000@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
 <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417154328.0227e168@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:20 PM 4/16/2002, Stephen Tempest wrote:
>Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?

Yes, many years ago.  The figure was derived from the old DGP sector files 
using CT (Striker and TCS) figures.  I had MCr 219,474,958,700 for the 
Gross Imperial Product.  SO, no - the Imperium could not (in a million 
years) afford to build a jump-capable planet.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:56:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:56:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters (2nd try)
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417224940.00aac690@mail.pi.se>

Hello everyone!

>Earth has a density above Mercury's. Not much above, but nonetheless above.

<snip>

>Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
>that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
>An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
>perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
>planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
>come up eventually.

There is a simple way to make planets more dense without changing the basic 
composition. Bigger terrestrial worlds will have higher density because of 
compression, which is far more effective for bigger bodies. Just adding 
more rock will make the rock more dense.

Earth has a compressed density higher than Mercury, but the uncompressed 
density is considerably less. If a planet had the composition of Mercury 
and the radius of Earth, which potentially could happen in an decently 
iron-rich inner system with a major collision between two large rocky 
worlds, that planet would have even greater density than Mercury has, say, 
somewhere between 6 and 6.5. If a world with the composition of Earth is 
50% greater in radius it also would likely have higher density than Earth.

On the other hand, if we think of an Earth-size world with the composition 
of Mars, it would still have a density of say, 4.5 to 5. I'd argue a more 
common problem in RPGs is that densities for Earth-like worlds are too low. 
(Big world with low density to generate decent gravity-style.)

If we list some solar system bodies, with the compressed density first and 
the uncompressed density afterwards:

Mercury 5.4     5.3
Venus   5.2     4.3
Earth           5.5     4.5
Moon            3.3     3.2
Mars            3.9     3.8

Incidentally, this also means that the GURPS divisions into say, "low-iron" 
and "medium-iron" worlds is rather non-useful for terrestrial worlds of 
differing sizes than Earth.

When it comes to high densities, superjovians, brown dwarves and red dwarf 
stars are other examples of where a 100D-radius may be considerably 
different from a version based on tidal differential force. A small red 
dwarf star can have a density 50-100 times higher than the Sun - or any 
material on Earth, for that matter. A medium-size brown dwarf more than a 
billion years old could easily have a density several times greater than 
Earths average.

> > The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
> > much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were "boiled" off.
>
>Check your figures. Mercury is less dense than the Earth. But you're right -
>in the traditional model, the lighter elements do boil off, which is why
>superjovians in the inner system are harder to explain away.

A possible other reason is that Mercury experienced, just like Earth, major 
impacts which blew off quite a deal of the surface.

When it comes to hot superjovians, their escape velocity due to high 
gravity is enough to keep gasses from escaping. Those gas giants 
will  probably be bigger in radii than normal outer system gas giants can 
be, because of the energy they receive from the star. There was a nice 
paper on 51 Pegasi's inner planet, but I can't find it right now. If anyone 
is interested, mail me off-list and I'll provide the link when I find it...

>Well, it's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the content of your
>message. In fact, it subtracts from it. A well-argued accurate point should
>need no emphasis whatsoever. The alternative therefore is no emphasis at
>all.

I believe emphasis has its points, but emphasizing too many words, say one 
in ten, makes posts difficult to read without reading in a "tone" of the 
post. I usually overemphasize like _this_ far too often. ,-)

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:57:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:57:22 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020416222702.02624008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3CBDD666.1080706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> At 02:40 PM 4/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>> William Lane wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the 
>>> list. to
>>> everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off 
>>> topic
>>> info.
>>
>>
>> That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
>> XML to Cobol and back...
> 
> 
> 
> Way cool!  Can I add this to my Traveller Maintenance Blues page?
> <http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html> 
> 
> 
Why surely!

Hey everybody...this is blanket permission to put anything I write here 
on your web sites, if you want.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:58:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:58:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F18T2Y89RdrUnR65Cbk00002a25@hotmail.com>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Sam D writes:
> > Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to
> > enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign 
>judgments?
>
>No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
>difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in 
>state
>courts work.

I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home turf, 
because that is the only place you can collect.  That should discourage 
litigation, and make a lot of lawyers rich with asset protection seminars.  
Maybe some worlds would become big Switzerlands where the wealthy hide their 
dough.

So I guess you would sue free traders where there ship is registered, 
because that is where title would be?  Then how do you actually get 
possession if other worlds are free to ignore the judgments of other worlds?

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:58:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Marsh)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:58:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <F53kOhpWL26mtgK3jca000025a8@hotmail.com>

Just to muddy the waters a bit. I am not so sure that the ovaries are that 
more sensitive to radiation than, say, testes but that a womans lifetime 
supply of egg cells are produced at the onset of puberty and the ovaries is 
the time released delivery system. The older the woman the older the eggs. 
This is unlike the testes which make em fresh as they go.

The woman's eggs are more sensitive in that the older the eggs the longer 
the possible exposure to radioactivity over the years.

However, I would think all things being equal a woman's ovaries being 
internal vs testes being external would make the man's reproductive cells 
more prone to radiation induced errors.

ObTrav: Perhaps on a world where there was a high background level of 
radiation there might exist a market for healthy donor eggs from another 
planet.


>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: Re: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:25:31 +0300 (EEST)
>
>On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, David P. Summers wrote:
> > Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can
> > easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the
> > skin (or more than a meter or two of air).
>
>Hm, don't alpha particles have even less range than beta? I remember
>something like centimeter scale ranges in air.
>
>Of course, they won't penetrate the skin. Still, if you get them into your
>body, they are mighty dangerous: the heavier the particle, the greater the
>damage. (Alpha particles are helium nuclei, that is, two protons and two
>neutrons, and about 8000 times more massive than electrons which make up
>beta radiation.)
>
>--
>Mikko Parviainen
>"I quote signatures."
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


th

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 16:59:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 15:59:44 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020417.130803.-189643.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 08:39:43 -0700 Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> At 09:16 AM 4/17/02 +1000, you wrote:
> 
> >Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
> >are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
> >pointy stick :)
> 
> Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future leader 
> of men?  :P
> 
> Douglas E. Berry 

Nah, he's just a Butter Bar wanna be.

Like Lt. Gorman in Aliens

Hey Top, you take the men in, I'll just watch the camera's, and make sure
my boots don't get scuffed, oh, and once your in the meat grinder I'll be
here to lead you out.

Yes Sir, were on it. Vasquez you take point.


Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:00:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:00:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <20020417131525.D29294@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEICCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Pions can be created by the collision of matter and antimatter.
The creation time can be tightly controlled.  So the start point
for acceleration to relativistic speeds is therefore controlled.

It requires far less handwaving than that required for plasma/fusion
weapons.

Neither of the latter can produce a "bolt" of plasma that
can fly downrange, in air or in vacuum.  No guide beams, etc, 
are going to help.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:01:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:01:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204170923130.29728-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204170923130.29728-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8e39ddf9659@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:25 AM +0300 4/17/02, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, David P. Summers wrote:
>>  Radiation shows a huge range in penetration.  From gammas that can
>>  easily pass through the body to weak betas that can't pentrate the
>>  skin (or more than a meter or two of air).
>
>Hm, don't alpha particles have even less range than beta? I remember
>something like centimeter scale ranges in air.

Yeah.

>
>Of course, they won't penetrate the skin. Still, if you get them into your
>body, they are mighty dangerous: the heavier the particle, the greater the
>damage. (Alpha particles are helium nuclei, that is, two protons and two
>neutrons, and about 8000 times more massive than electrons which make up
>beta radiation.)

Energy is how heavy and how fast.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:02:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:02:32 2002
Subject: [TML] detection
In-Reply-To: <20416.215513.5m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20416.215513.5m9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8e39e6db7f9@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:55 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 1:28 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>Admittedly Earth doesn't have the best in
>>>   > near-space detection equipment but we don't even see most of our 'near
>>>>   misses' until it would have been too late - so how easy is it to spot a
>>>>   single ship behaving badly and making an effort to hide itself?
>>>
>>>We don't see them because we aren't *looking*. And they are mostly
>>>outside the 100 diameter limit anyway.
>>
>>  We are looking.  There is a program underway to catalog Earth
>>  crossing asteroids....
>
>Yes, but they are looking for the *big* ones, not the measly little
>hundred meter jobs. Detecting those would be nice, but if one hit it
>wouldn't be much worse than a big nuke.

Well, as you say, they would look for them if they could, so the 
original issue is we look for what we can see is valid.....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:03:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:03:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20417.014254.3E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20417.014254.3E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8e39f21e24f@[143.232.119.186]>

>In mail you write:
>
>>  At 7:00 PM -0800 4/16/02, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>   > The tidal force across a ship depends on how big it is.  It is also
>>>>   true, as you point out, that the force of one object relative to
>>>>   another will depend on how far apart they are.
>>>
>>>You misubderstand. The forces exerted on a given *part* of the ship
>>>depend soleley on how far that part is from the center of mass of the
>>>ship, and in what direction (relative to the body inducing the tidal
>>>forces).
>>
>>  I'm not sure what force you are talking about.  The force on any one
>>  part of the ship is the force of gravity.  Tidal forces are the
>>  relative difference in forces between different parts of an object.
>
>The "tidal forces" are due to a combination of gravity *and* motion.
>
>Remember, the ship is assumed to be in "free fall" (ie freely
>responding to gravity in some sort of orbit) when you figure the tidal
>acceleration due to the body the ship is orbiting (Note: I'm using
>"orbit" loosely, to include things like parabolic and hyperbolic
>trajectories)
>
>The "tidal forces" are due to differences in the strength of the
>primary's field and due to the motion of the ship in it's orbit.
>
>The magnitude of the forces depends not on the size of the *orbiting*
>body, but on the distance from the center of mass of that body, and
>what direction you are from the center relative to the line connecting
>primary and satellite.
>
>So, at a given distance from earth, the tidal forces at the center of
>mass of a ship due to Earth will be *zero*. At they will increase as
>you move away from that point. The direction and magnitude of the
>forces depends on the distance from that center and upon the direction
>relative to the line joining that point to the center of the Earth.
>
>Anything "attached" to the ship is subject to those forces.
>
>The forces will be the same at 100 meters in a given direction from the
>center of the ship whether the ship is a tiny scout with a pole
>sticking out in that direction or or 1 km long ship with that point
>being inside the ship.
>
>Secondary effects due to the mass distribution of the ship will modify
>those forces. But it's not the "size" of the ship per se that
>determines the strength or direction of the forces.

Motion has nothing to do with it.  If you take a ship and hold it 
stationary wrt the planetary body it will still encounter tidal 
forces.  If you had so much thrust that you could hold you ship 
stationary near a black hole, tidal forces can still tear the ship 
apart (and/or squeeze it together).

Lets look at this more generally.  Gravity changes with distance. 
That means that things that are at different spots experience 
different gravitational forces.  If these things are different 
objects, then their forces due to gravity (and their accelerations) 
are just different.

If these things are part of a rigid object, they can't have different 
accelerations and forces occur trying to pull the object apart (along 
the axis toward the body, it get squeezed together along the 
perpendicular axis).  This is the tidal force (or on aspect of it, it 
can also turn objects around, etc).  The bigger the object is, the 
further the different parts are apppart, the bigger the differences 
in the force of gravity, the  greater the tidal force is.

You are also being loose with the difference between tidal forces and 
tidal acceleration.  Different forces would produce different 
accelerations in different parts of the body if they weren't 
compensated by internal forces in the body (unless it is within the 
Roche limit and the body breaks up).

Getting to the original point.  The quantity that is close to being 
an explanation of the 100 diam limit is the gravitational gadient 
(the rate at which the force of gravity changes with distance).  Now 
this is, of course, is directly related to the tidal force (the tidal 
force depends directly on this and the size of an object) so some 
call it a tidal <this or that>.  I happen to think the gravitational 
gradient gives more intuitive feel for what the quantity represents.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:04:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:04:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes (was: Quick Query on US Tax Returns)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEDLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417162722.022054a8@mail.qrc.com>

At 08:31 PM 4/16/2002, Andy Brick wrote:
>ObTrav: What about tax returns in the Imperium?

I've tried various schemes in my Traveller games, and the thing that worked 
best was to ignore it entirely.  Here's the way it works IMTU:

The Imperium collects taxes from member worlds; as part of their 
membership, worlds agree to many things.  This includes the requirement 
that the world will pay taxes to the Imperium based on a percentage of the 
world's assessed Gross Planetary Product (GPP).  Most worlds are taxed at 
about 1% of their GPP; the exact rate may vary from world to world 
depending on the details (for example, a TL-1 world with a barter economy 
may not pay taxes at all).  Special taxes may also be assessed from time to 
time (for example, a war emergency tax); tax relief may also be provided in 
some cases.

The Imperial bureaucracy is responsible for setting tax rates, assessing 
GPPs, and ensuring the money is collected into the treasury.  In general, 
these operations are routine: GPPs are determined by the IISS Imperial 
Grand Survey and are generally well-known; world governments remit their 
taxes and the Imperial government has funds with which to 
function.  Enforcement (and the settlement of disputes) is the 
responsibility of the Imperial Nobility, who may be able to set policy 
(depending on their status and area of responsibility) and can call on 
Imperial resources (Navy, Marines, Army) to enforce it.

Individual citizens are not responsible for any taxes to the Imperium; 
there is no per-capita or personal income tax at the Imperial 
level.  Planet-bound corporations also do not pay Imperial taxes.  However, 
member worlds are free to tax their corporations and residents however they 
see fit; different worlds have different policies, and probably every tax 
or revenue-generation scheme that has ever been conceived is in operation 
somewhere in the Imperium.  Different worlds may have different ideas about 
who can be taxed (many worlds, particularly those with sealed environments, 
levy a tax on everyone who visits the world).

Active Imperial military, starship crews, and other travellers who do not 
generally reside on any particular planet do not generally pay 
taxes.  Some, who wish to retain citizenship on a particular world, will 
pay taxes anyway and may even participate in other civic responsibilities 
(voting, civil service, etc.) in absentia.

Imperial corporations (that is, interstellar corporations with an Imperial 
charter) do not pay taxes to any world, nor do they pay taxes to the 
Imperium.  However, long-standing custom dictates that when a corporation 
is granted an Imperial charter, the company gives the Imperial family a 
gift of small fraction (typically around 1%) of it's shares.  Many Imperial 
corporations, particularly those who are not otherwise owned or backed by 
nobles, also give smaller numbers of shares to other important nobles in 
their area of operations.

Thus, while taxes can be a motivating factor for political or economic 
events in my Traveller universe, they are not generally something that the 
PC's have to worry about (unless, of course, they happen to be outside of 
the starport extrality fence on New Hong Kong for Tax Notification Day).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:05:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:05:12 2002
Subject: [TML] The L-E Digest?
References: <F82qi8VjUwZcSlVviFl0000bd6b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBDF4DC.391C2BC0@premier.net>


Jeff Rowse wrote:
> 
>>snip>>
> 
> Jeff.
> "Who ordered the Meat Feast with extra Bantha?" - Pizza the Hutt.

In reference to your .sig file, check this page from BBspot:

http://bbspot.com/News/2002/04/before.html

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:07:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:07:23 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20416.220459.6d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020417085057.C28612@freeman.little-possums.net> <20416.220459.6d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020418082212.A31848@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?
...
> You want it because you were making such a fuss about not being able
> to use oxygen to convert methane to water and CO2 because you'd lose
> the oxygen if you threw away the CO2.

I did.  That doesn't mean I want to have a special LOX tank just in
case I can find hydrogen but not water.  Most of the time I'm going to
be buying water from the starport I'm docked at.  Most of the rest of
the time, I'll be getting it from iceballs or seas.  That's much safer
than gas giant skimming, if nothing else.  In a desperate situation, I
*might* come across a system that has a gas giant but no water.  (The
only plausible cases I can think of involve a gas giant inside the
star's 100D limit) In that case I can still skim hydrogen gas and
process it into the LHyd tank for a 1-parsec jump.  If there is any
water in the GG atmosphere (likely if there is no water elsewhere), I
can collect that too, diffuse though it may be.

In short, I don't need (nor want) LOX.  I don't need (nor want) to
burn methane.  I want *water*.


> Also, what version of Traveller are you running? Most version have jump
> fuel being the majority of the tankage?

GT, but I did the same in MT.  It is *my* Traveller universe, after
all.


> Only if the *mass* of the ship doesn't matter in your TU.

By and large, it doesn't.  In the OTU either.

The single overwhelming factor in determining the running cost of a
ship is the mortgage.  The single overwhelming factor within that is
the cost of jump drives, which depend entirely on *volume*.


> Only at the cost of *not* being able to refuel by scopping at a gas
> giant. The atmosphere is 90%+ hydrogen.

That just means you need to spend a bit longer scooping for the other
stuff, a time which in itself is relatively minor compared to the time
taken to get to and from a gas giant's 100D limit.  But why perform
that dangerous maneuver at all when you've got almost always got
lovely little microgravity water sources nowhere near so deep into a
100D limit?


> No, but you can't use the water for drinking,

I can after I remove the ammonia.


> and it needs special handling as ammonia water is corrosive.

Scary.  You were talking about hundreds of tons of cryogenic LH2.
Ever looked up the MSDS for that?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:11:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:11:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Bomb pumped lasers - was Sandcasters, noncanon
In-Reply-To: <20020416221003.EBEC727A30@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16xlxZ-00044d-0W@anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net>

> I seem to recall something about X-ray lasers being developed, but they're not
> exactly weapons-grade.  The old SDI people talked about bomb-pumped X-ray
> lasers, a mechanism which AFAIK has never been successfully demonstrated, not
> that this prevent people from using it in SF.

So how theoretical or handwavium are bomb-pumped lasers? Is it just that we haven't developed the technology to successfully produce them, or is it that they're physically not possible?

Rob.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:12:07 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OF8A9C8510.72B94182-ON85256B9D.004D468D@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBD717E.1040301@magpiesnest.co.uk>

William Lane wrote:

 >
 >>> has anyone used these three together? if so please drop me a
 >>> line at wlane@aessuccess.org. got a few questions.
 >>>
 >
 >> Certainly have Bill (though now I tend to use JAXP, which is
 >> based around
 >>
 > Xerces but has differences). Send me your >questions and I will do
 >  my best to answer them for you.
 >
 > Here is what im doing im developing a java application that reads
 > an xml file and parses it into 3 seperate COBOL data files. the
 > cobol group eventually runs their apps and uses the data from
 > these flat files. once they are through they send them back to
 > me. i then want to parse these 3 files into a single new xml file.
 >
 > i have gotten to where i am creating the new document. i can append 
children on it ect.. ect..
 >
 > however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to 
actually be
 > written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im new to XML 
and Xerces
 > is not the best documented thing i have ever worked with. i was 
looking at
 > maybe using the serializer to send a outPutStream through it. but 
it would
 > seem to me that xerces should have a way of building this document 
out on
 > the drive.
 >
IMHO, the Serializer is the best bet because it will control the data 
structure better than writing direct to a FileOutputStream



-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk

 > > children on it ect.. ect..
 >
 > however i cant seem to figure out how to get this document to
 > actually be written out to the drive. im a java programmer but im
 >  new to XML and Xerces is not the best documented thing i have
 > ever worked with. i was looking at maybe using the serializer to
 > send a outPutStream through it. but it would seem to me that
 > xerces should have a way of building this document out on the
 > drive.
 >
IMHO, the Serializer is the best bet because it will control the data 
structure better than writing direct to a FileOutputStream (although 
you can certainly do that if you like). The thing to remember is that 
when it is built an XML file is simply an ordinary text file with an 
".xml" extension instead of a ".txt" extension.

What I tend to do is use the DocumentFactory to create a new XML 
document, pile in the data by adding the nodes one by one, then grab 
the file I want to create (or update), delete the original (because 
its easier than setting a file lock) and write out the new file to the 
same filename. It isn't how it ought to be done, but I find it makes 
life easier.

Probably though, it would be worth your while taking a white paper off 
the www.java.sun.com page and seeing how it "should be" done. That way 
you are not just hacking code the way I do.

-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org> <3CBC9A4C.4000806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CBD7023.2090608@magpiesnest.co.uk>

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> William Lane wrote:
> 
>>
>> Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the 
>> list. to
>> everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
>> info.
> 
> 
> That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
> XML to Cobol and back...
> 
> oBTRav> Captain finds engineer hip deep in the Jump drive controller 
> with an exceptionally old-looking piece of hardware in his hands.
> 
> Captain: "Good lord, Scottie! That's a jump *tape* reader! What is that 
> antique doing on my jump drive??"
> 
> Engineer: "Well Captain, we cannae find the right components to rrepair 
> the drive controller. Urgvark" he points to a crazed looking Vargr 
> assistant engineer, "...found this in a antique shop. We're tying it 
> into the saircuit right now."
> 
> C: "But how will we control it? I haven't seen a jump tape in my life 
> that wasn't in a museum!"
> 
> E:"Well Captain, I have a writing head from a holocorder here, we can 
> connect it to the main computer, and have it translate the control 
> instructions from the astrogation program to the correct patterns that a 
> jump tape would have. It should work, in theory, sah. " Shouts "OK 
> Urgvark! Give me some power..."
> 
> <SNAP> <Pop fsssssshhhhhh> "Turn it off! Turn it off!"
> 
> E: Through the smoke..."Ahh captain, we're going ta need some morrre 
> time..."
> 
> C: weeps.
> 
> 

Keyboard kill !!! And a waste of coffee :(

-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:21:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:21:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
References: <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com>
 <3CBC3204.4F39A8D1@mail.cswnet.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417154328.0227e168@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3CBDFF31.826843F6@premier.net>


Derek Wildstar wrote:
> 
> At 05:20 PM 4/16/2002, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> >Has anybody ever calculated the GNP of the entire Imperium?
> 
> Yes, many years ago.  The figure was derived from the old DGP sector files
> using CT (Striker and TCS) figures.  I had MCr 219,474,958,700 for the
> Gross Imperial Product.  SO, no - the Imperium could not (in a million
> years) afford to build a jump-capable planet.

Not even if they cashed in Betty Shugili (r) points from boxtops of
Groatburger Helper (r)? ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F18T2Y89RdrUnR65Cbk00002a25@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019084922.7419.ajackson@ping>

Sam D writes:
> >
> >No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
> >difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in 
> >state
> >courts work.
> 
> I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home turf, 
> because that is the only place you can collect.

Nah, if the defendant has a local office (sales outlet, whatever) you can sue
the local unit.

> So I guess you would sue free traders where there ship is registered, 
> because that is where title would be?  Then how do you actually get 
> possession if other worlds are free to ignore the judgments of other
> worlds? 

Well, as long as the free trader never visits the port where the judgement
against it was made, no problem.  If you ever visit that port, they can impound
your ship.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:24:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:24:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>

At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
>that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)

Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  Can 
I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
minds of men? I don't think so!

I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                     -Adam West, as Batman 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020418093454.A32118@freeman.little-possums.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!

Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
best minds in medical science?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 17:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 17 16:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020418095314.B32118@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Please contact Los Alamos and inform them that the meson accelerator
> that they have been using since 1968 is a fake.

I think you'll find that their mesons are *charged*, and furthermore
are moving at a really good clip when they are created.


> It sends beams of mesons out without irradiating the accelerator.

I bet it does.  It just doesn't induce significant amounts of
radioactivity in the walls of the beam tube.  Besides which, the
*density* of energy release is much greater in the target region
because the mesons collide with stuff, not decay there.


> The only items that become "hot" are in the target area.  Please
> explain how that is done.

It's pretty simple.  Pi mesons interact quite strongly with matter.
When the (remaining) mesons reach the target area, they don't "decay"
there.  They *collide*.  Collision products (and secondary products)
include a whole zoo of particles, and a few odd isotopes many of which
are radioactive with significant half-lives.

This is very different from the description of meson guns in
Traveller.  Traveller meson move unimpeded through matter, have
lifetimes instead of half-lives, and those lifetimes can be controlled
to within one part per trillion.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 18:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 17:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CBE0CC8.5010706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the 
>> fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
> 
> 
> Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
> injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  
> Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud 
> the minds of men? I don't think so!
> 
> I want my money (along with my spleen) back.
> 

But you got that back, didn't you?

Maybe that's the super power...'Grows Spleens'.

Nobody ever said it would be a GOOD superpower...;-P

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 17:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <3CBE0CC8.5010706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAGEIOCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Bruce and Doug complain about their lack of superpowers
<snip>

How do you think I feel?  I've straddled many a
thermonuclear warhead, in the forlorn hopes that
something would happen (super mutant children, for
one).

Nothing!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <p04330106b8e3cd72c219@[143.232.119.186]>

>At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the 
>>fact that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
>
>Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and 
>even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead 
>tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not 
>even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>
>I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that 
gets powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an 
"accident", so maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but 
whether it was "accidental".  :-)

(Though I wonder, how do you know you don't have any super powers? 
Have you _tried_ to change the course of a might river?)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <20020418093454.A32118@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417180901.009fd010@mindspring.com>

At 09:34 AM 4/18/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
> > Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> > tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> > even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>
>Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
>best minds in medical science?

That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm 
going to sue somebody.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:26:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20417.015559.9o2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFADPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi

> Also, the post I was replying to had the wrong density for Mercury, and
> had it being denser than earth. I didn't check my references until
> someone pointed out the error.

You were replying to my post, and the densities were correct there.

> The sort of normalcy I'm talking about is based soely on elemental
> abundances and the way a cloud of dust and gas collapses to form
> planets.

<lots of snippage>

> So only systems with *really* skewed elemental abundances will have
> worlds with densities much higher than Earth's. Or other *really* weird
> situations. The pulsatr planets, rocky planets that are insanely close
> to their primary (work out what would be left of Earth after a few
> billion years at 0.1 AU from the sun, for example). etc.

Well, since no-one yet fully understands the exact mechanisms by which said
cloud collapses, and since no one has yet surveyed any solar system in
detail other than our own, I'd say you were making some pretty big
assumptions about what is normal and what isn't. In addition, whilst
universal elemental abundances may in part define the mean abundance for a
given element in a given solar system, you will get local variations.
Finally, I was not looking at "really skewed" densities - I was looking at a
margin increase in the density of a terrestrial planet to 6g/cc or higher. I
would expect the densities of pulsar planets etc to be much higher than
that.

BTW, as an aside, Red Dwarfs display similar relative elemental abundances
to the Sun, but are many , many times denser.

> But that just showed that orbits weren't as stable as we thought, and
> that large bodies might form close to where the star did.

Not quite my point - this showed planets with volatile gases could survive
in the inner system, which previously had not been thought common nor
"normal". This in turn implies that your basis for "normalcy", i.e. our
solar system, may not be as normal as you think.

> They are still gas giants in most respects.

Off topic a bit this, but Superjovians are not mere gas giants, at least not
in the Jupiter/Saturn/etc sense. They are much larger (though still somewhat
short of Brown Dwarf status), and in these systems they are heated
considerably by virtue of the proximity to their primary.

> Thing is, if it wasn't rare, we'd see more variation in densities of
> objects in this system. Only bodies that get that dense are asteroid
> fragments.

Nonsense. As I am trying to get across to you, you cannot take this solar
system and assume that all other solar systems will be pretty much the same.
This bias is, in fact, a major gripe of mine with Traveller world generation
systems - they are very good at generating systems very similar to our own
but not so good at generating systems which aren't. You are taking a very
Sol-centric view of the universe.

What you are suggesting makes as much sense as examining one species of
insect, say a butterfly, and then assuming that all other species of insect
are very similar if not identical - when in fact they are not.

> The problem is managing to collect all that iron and then get *rid* of
> all the *rock* that had to accumulate with it.

One word - collision. Check out my earlier mail re the formation of the
Earth Moon system by collision with a body roughly equal to Mars. All of the
Moon is formed from the "rocky layer" of both protoplanets. Make the
impactor larger, and hey presto, more rocky material is knocked off into
space, leaving the cohesive core behind.

And collisions are very common early in the history of an accreting cloud,
after all.

> Rules of thumb are expected to work *most* of the time. and that's all
> the 100 diameter limit is.

Exactly - it's a rule of thumb. So don't bother trying to generate an exact
or precise derivation for it - you cannot have it both ways - either it's an
inaccurate rule of thumb, or a precise mathematical law. It can't be both.
You say one thing here, and something completely different at the end of
your mail.

> Sorry, but emphasis can change the meaning of a sentence. And convey
> extra meaning.

Sure. If used sparingly, and only where necessary.

> Harder for *you*, maybe. You are the only person I've ever heard make
> such an argument. And I'm far from the only person who uses them.

Not just for me, for many people.

Good netiquette is to make use of emphasis sparingly and only when
necessary. You do not do this. There was no need for example, to emphasise
the word "you" in the above sentence. It would have carried the same meaning
without.

I would suggest also that you read the guidelines for the clearer use of
English, published by the Campaign For Clear English.

> Also, they don't draw my eyes to such words. They modify the emphasis
> as I reach the word. They don't "pull" my eyes on ahead.

Then you read in a most unusual way. Most people I know, including my 5 year
old daughter, read one word at a time for sure, but are drawn to words in a
piece of prose that are highlighted or marked in some manner and will look
at those first. To give an example, my daughter has a book where the
sentence "The chicken laid an egg" has the word "egg" printed in red. This
word is the word that people see first, because it stands out, even if they
then read the sentence normally. To use emphasis on a whim as you do makes
the text distracting and hence harder to read, all with little or no extra
meaning to the reader other than that already available in the content
itself.

> By your argument, I shouldn't use emphasis in speaking either. And
> that's just plain silly.

No, I said that you shouldn't use unnecessary emphasis. There is also a
considerable difference between emphasis in  a block of text (where I can
see all of the emphasised or highlighted words first before I have reached
them) and emphasis in speech (where I have to wait to hear each word in
linear sequence, and cannot therefore be distracted by
future words). The brain is better at detecting difference than conformity,
you see.

> I emphasized it because if I was speaking I'd stress that word. That's
> not being patronizing, that's saying that I consider it very, very
> unlikely. Without resorting to overly awkward phrasing.

Why stop there, then ? Why not use stress markers to indicate which syllable
is stressed, or which sonant ? Why not add "beat" marks for pauses shorter
than commas ? Why not ? Because you don't need to, that's why. The reader is
perfectly capable of adding these details, given the context of the
sentence - it's part of the parsing effort of reading in the first place.
Also, you shouldn't need to resort to awkward phrasing to make a point.

> Work it out for yourself. Any "force" that is the same at X diameters
> (where X <>1) from bodies of different sizes *does* vary by the cube of
> the distance.  That's the way the geometry works. See below.

You missed the point. I don't dispute what you are saying, and I'm sure that
your math is perfectly correct, but you've gone off on a tangent. My
argument was that the 100 diameter rule is probably arbitrary, and given
that densities will certainly vary even if only over a limited range, using
tidal forces makes it no more uniform than any other derivation. Far better
to define a tidal gradient limit or gravitational field strength limit where
the misjump threshold is, and then calculate how many diameters out that is.
At least that way you don't need a mathematical false premise of uniform
densities across all planetary sizes in order to make the derivation fit the
rule. Of course this means that 100D is reduced to a rule of thumb, and the
actual distance varies from say 90 to 110D or whatever, but that makes more
sense.

In fact, making the 100D a rule of thumb probably means that this is a
"safe" threshold, and the actual limit occurs considerably closer, say
50-70D out but rarely higher. That means that 100D is almost always safe,
but usually way off the actual value. Compare with operational and critical
maximum dive depths for submarines, for example - the sub may take 450m of
water, but the manual may set a limit of 375m to be on the safe side.

> Work out the field strength at 100 diameters for size 1 thru 10 planets
> assuming densities similar to that of earth or even Mars. The figures
> are *way* off.

Now try the same with tidal forces where the Mars size planet has a density
equal to that of Mars, and the Earth sized planet has a density equal to
that of the Earth. Do you get the same answer ? No. This only works if all
of the 10 worlds in your calculation have the same density, which makes no
sense. Better to define jump limits in terms of field strengths, tidal force
values, etc, than a distance/number of diameters. Sure the distance will
vary, but the rule is then usable in all situations and is more internally
consistent.

Regards

Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.349 / Virus Database: 195 - Release Date: 15/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] That Traveller Sensation
Message-ID: <200204180138.ELB02368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Watching Forbidden Planet again...
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 19:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 17 18:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330106b8e3cd72c219@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417182539.009eb920@mindspring.com>

At 06:13 PM 4/17/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
>>>that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
>>
>>Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
>>injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead 
>>tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not 
>>even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>>
>>I want my money (along with my spleen) back.
>
>Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that gets 
>powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an "accident", so 
>maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but whether it was 
>"accidental".  :-)
>
>(Though I wonder, how do you know you don't have any super powers? Have 
>you _tried_ to change the course of a might river?)

I'm half tempted to say yes, just for the reaction...


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
                          -Chicago reader, 10/15/82


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020417200008.009f3500@mail.attbi.com>

Douglas Berry wrote:
 > Hey! How do you think I feel? I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
 > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
 > tube! Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers? Not
 > even. Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!

	Didn't you get the Control Penguins Power?  I thought you had, or maybe it 
was the Penguin Projection Power .  No, wait, isn't that the Bits project, 
Penguin Projection?  Geez, now I'm really confused. :)
	By the way, I just got my copy of ACQ.  You have been added to the list of 
games I will buy just because of the author's demonstrated competance.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3CBED3F3.19368.F24A04@localhost>

On 17 Apr 2002 at 8:31, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
> >that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
> 
> Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
> injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  Can 
> I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
> minds of men? I don't think so!
> 
> I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

Well I'd suggest re-growing an organ from nothing counts as a super-
power.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <200204171605.EGN07388@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost>

On 17 Apr 2002 at 12:05, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Doug gives advice:
> 
> >>Yes but im joining up to be an officer :p The grunts
> >>are supposed to shoot the crazy bastard with the
> >>pointy stick :)
> >
> >Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh future 
> >leader of men?  :P
> >
> 
> God help them.  I'm almost of the opinion that officers 
> should be enlisted first.  Even academy cadets should 
> complete 2 years before going to the academy.

I'm very definitely of that opinion.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
References: <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417222045.020ccec0@192.168.0.1>

At 08:31 AM 4/17/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 02:45 PM 4/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>I work with radioisotopes and have been eminently frustrated by the fact 
>>that I have _yet_ to manifest even _one_ superpower!  :-)
>Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and even 
>injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead tube!  Can 
>I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
>minds of men? I don't think so!
>I want my money (along with my spleen) back.

Oh come on...you *are* growing the spleen back.


------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Writing about jazz is like dancing about
architecture" -- Thelonius Monk
------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: XML, JAVA, Xerces
In-Reply-To: <3CBDD666.1080706@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <OFADFDB8FC.A9A95230-ON85256B9D.00562870@pheaa.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020416222702.02624008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417222814.00cd62e8@192.168.0.1>

At 01:09 PM 4/17/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>>At 02:40 PM 4/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>William Lane wrote:
>>>>Sorry about that i must have some how accedentally sent it to the list. to
>>>>everyone please accept my appologies for spamming the list with off topic
>>>>info.
>>>That's fine...I'm still boggling at the concept of using java to write 
>>>XML to Cobol and back...
>>Way cool!  Can I add this to my Traveller Maintenance Blues page?
>><http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html> 
>>
>Why surely!
>Hey everybody...this is blanket permission to put anything I write here on 
>your web sites, if you want.

Thanks!  It's up there now!



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F179u7r4LYhvH67DL5d0000f1ce@hotmail.com>

Anthony Jackson said

> > >No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
> > >difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in
> > >state
> > >courts work.
> >
> > I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home 
>turf,
> > because that is the only place you can collect.
>
>Nah, if the defendant has a local office (sales outlet, whatever) you can 
>sue
>the local unit.

If the defendant is big and has a local offices sure.  You can play games 
with that though, like having every local office as a separate corporation.  
Because the LIC is granted by the Imperium, local courts probably can not 
break through the corporate veil.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
Message-ID: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>

OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm 
getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.


Anything happen while I was gone?

Loren Wiseman

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
In-Reply-To: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8E37F0C.4CC96%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/17/02 7:31 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm
> getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.

done
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417180901.009fd010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEKFGKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

What if your new found super power is something like
"Manipulate Hivers"
"Jump successfully within 100 D"
"Explain why the islands aren't a Protectorate"

You know . . . useful things.

jml
who with a shovel can alter the course of smallish rivulets

>>>>>>>>>>

At 09:34 AM 4/18/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
> > Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> > tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> > even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
>
>Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
>best minds in medical science?

That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm 
going to sue somebody.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:42:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:42:05 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
In-Reply-To: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAEEJDCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>

Loren comes back from the dead:

>Anything happen while I was gone?

Not much. I "do" have a question.

When you first started in on this,
back in the beginning of it all,
did you ever think that decades later,
the same players would endlessly 
discuss "canon" about the things 
you and the others wrote?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:47:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:47:25 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
References: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002b01c1e683$27970f00$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:31 PM
GDWGAMES@aol.com said,

> Anything happen while I was gone?

Just the attack of the Zhodani Penguin elite.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail". - Gore Vidal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 20:52:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 19:52:16 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
In-Reply-To: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEKHGKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Oh nothing.

Whistles innocently

Sure is nice weather isn't it

______________________________
Caesar:  I'm so mad, I just have to vent my spleen at someone

Brutus:  (fingering dagger)  Here, let me help

jml
______________________________ 


OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm 
getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.


Anything happen while I was gone?

Loren Wiseman
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEHHCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com>
>
>At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?
>Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?  Or are lawsuits rare and
>judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?
>
>Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?
>Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?
>
>What does canon have to say on this?  What do you have to say?

Canon is generally silent on this question.  Milieu Zero posits rather an
intrusive Imperial legal system, but I think it withers over time as the
Imperium expands to the entire extent of the Ziru Sirka, and declines to
impose any but the mildest requirements on member states (calendar, Imperial
credit, abolition of slavery).

The questions you present therefore require answers on two levels: member
states and the Imperium itself.  As to member states, there are 11,000
different answers, so I won't comment further.

The Imperium itself must strike a balance between autocracy and sufficient
rule of law for commerce to function.  Access to the Imperial civil courts
will be limited to matters that involve only Imperial law, such as
interstellar commerce and certain disputes between nobles.

I've written pretty extensively on this topic in the past.  You might want
to check the TML archives.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes (was: Quick Query on US Tax Returns)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417162722.022054a8@mail.qrc.com>
References: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCGEDLDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
 <3CBCBC2C.CF37A960@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020417223728.00a730f0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 05:35 PM 4/17/2002 -0400, Derek Wildstar wrote:

>Thus, while taxes can be a motivating factor for political or economic 
>events in my Traveller universe, they are not generally something that the 
>PC's have to worry about (unless, of course, they happen to be outside of 
>the starport extrality fence on New Hong Kong for Tax Notification Day).

Especially if you see a big Hoffmanite wearing an old X-Tel uniform running 
for the gate.

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sporadic announcement of traveller Webrings
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417234404.00ce37d8@mail.charter.net>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/TravRings.html>

I have all the Traveller related webrings I know of listed on this page.

I'm the RingMaster for the Gearhead ring & the Reavers' Deep ring.

Please feel free to join either of those if you have appropriate content.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 21:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Wed Apr 17 20:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOECACEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <p04330107b8e24b741481@[143.232.119.186]> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020417180901.009fd010@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <003301c1e68b$dbbfb060$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Wednesday, April 17, 2002 6:09 PM
Douglas Berry said,

> That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm
> going to sue somebody.

Hey, Spleen Regeneration is a perfectly fine super power.  Just make sure
that you always take bullets in your spleen.

The bad news is your GM is going to charge you 30 character building points
for this advantage.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force. And,
like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master!"  -George
Washington


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 17 22:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sam D)
Date: Wed Apr 17 21:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <F60NIPDrGsWt3ogiUBy000123e6@hotmail.com>

I am looking at an old article from JTAS (I think) called High Justice by 
Terry McInnes.  It deals with criminal cases, but I thought it would shed 
some light on civil law.  At the imperial and subsector level of justice, 
there are courts wtih 3-9 judges.  So, at least according to this article, 
there are courts of some sort and not just nobles dispensing justice.  FWIW.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 00:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 17 23:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <20020418093454.A32118@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204180939270.28080-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Timothy Little wrote:
> > Hey!  How do you think I feel?  I've been irradiated, poisoned, and
> > even injected with materials that had to be delivered in a huge lead
> > tube!  Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not
> > even.  Cloud the minds of men? I don't think so!
> Didn't you develop strange powers of regeneration that befuddle the
> best minds in medical science?

I think he is still missing the adamantium skeleton and the forearm
spurs...

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 04:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 18 03:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418055518.00a9a050@pop.wizard.net>

Bruce Johnson, regarding Law Level 0 worlds:
>Probably quite polite and formal, since it's likely heavily armed...and 
>the local citizenry is entirely likely to feel that maintaining public 
>order is incumbent on all members of society, as well as enforcement, 
>since LL0 worlds tend also to be low GOV worlds too.
>
>A good one to spring on a bunch of unsuspecting PC's...land them someplace 
>they're expecting to be Dodge City, and discover that it's anything but, 
>that their 'uncivilized' behavior is quickly, but firmly 
>corrected...permanently, if necessary...think a Heinleinian world of 
>self-reliant, armed and polite strangers...

I think the Dodge City reference is usually more apt than the Heinlein 
reference.  In other words, I'm thinking that territories of the United 
States before they became states, during the 1800s, are very instructive 
about the behavior of people when there's no law present.  Usually, low law 
level comes hand in hand with low population level.  The Malthusian 
pressures of population crowding are so low that nobody feels compelled to 
seek to arrange a government, police, and courts.  As population density 
increases, those things begin to be manifested.  Meanwhile, you can indeed 
get away with murder.  If you are more popular than the victim, and you 
have a good story to go along with it.  Or more feared than the victim's 
survivors.  Or you move to a distant part of the country.  Or you hang out 
with family and friends who will protect you or avenge your own death.  For 
fans of Westerns who are more familiar with the actual history of that time 
and place, 'McCabe and Mrs. Miller' is a much more accurate portrayal of 
the usual behavior in a lawless but armed society than an episode of 'The 
Lone Ranger'.

Another example that might be instructive is the evolution of the Mafia, 
Irish gangs, and Jewish gangs, and similar criminal organizations in the 
U.S. (a society that successfully ignored the law, and thus was de facto 
Law Level 0) during the 1900s.  Whoever threw their weight around the best 
got away with the most.  Both in relations between the gangs and relations 
within the gangs.  Exceptions to that rule of thumb tended to happen only 
when the law got involved or when the gangs ran their own private law in 
the form of treaties between gangs and courts run by 'nobles' and 'juries' 
within the gangs.

Heinlein is often invoked in the science fiction world as an example of 
libertarian principles at work.  I don't know how many have read his story 
'Coventry', which was set inside a huge area cordoned off by the U.S. and 
completely without laws.  Citizens of the U.S. who broke the law were 
banished to Coventry to live among the other people who felt they didn't 
need the law.  Contrary to the expectations of the rugged individualist who 
starts the story about to enter Coventry, the people inside Coventry 
evolved their own law, but one that was imposed by the biggest sharks in 
the pool and not so kind and gentle as the law they had just left 
behind.  This was Heinlein's story that most directly addressed the issue, 
and with writer as judge of the conflict between different poliltical 
systems, he clearly found in favor of the democratic one and against the 
libertarian one.

In my own science fiction (running MTU, for instance), I try to make things 
work the way I think it would probably evolve to work in those 
circumstances.  Except when I ignore that in the interests of what I think 
will make a good story, despite loss of realism.  :->  To me, a sparsely 
populated world, with little or no indigenous manufacturing capability is a 
frontier world and frontier justice is rough and the people who populate it 
are tough.  Feuds, mobs, lynchings, etc. occur.  Discharge of firearms 
within the town limits is something the more forward-thinking citizens, or 
at least business-minded citizens, would like to see stop but that doesn't 
stop the rowdy toughs coming through on a cattle drive from doing it.  I 
think that describes the situation of a lot of low law level systems.  That 
deals with systems where there is plenty of land to live on and it is in 
the process of being filled up by people.  Come back to the same spot in 
twenty-five years or even five years and it will be more populated and much 
less lawless.

There are also systems that have a low population that will never rise 
higher, usually because of poisonous atmospheres.  That is the kind of 
frontier that is most likely run as a corporate preserve, a mining 
town.  There is law, but not necessarily justice.  The law isn't law that's 
on the books.  It's just whatever the corporate managers need it to be at 
the time.

A third case of low law level worlds is when a noble administers a 
territory as his or her own private fief.  In that case, it's up to the 
noble how she or he wishes to run things.  That's the formal law.  It's 
also up to the noble to find some kind of police and other apparatus of law 
enforcement, so even a fief with lots of laws on the books may be a de 
facto Law Level 0 place.  The real world examples that most come to my mind 
are Imperial Russia, and the colonies in Africa, South America, and much of 
Asia that were run by the European powers.  A fictional example that a 
friend of mine completely bases his Traveller universe on is the first 
'Dune' book.

For me, those three categories cover most of the times in Traveller that 
you'll have low law levels.  The Dakotas and Utah in the middle 1800s, 
remote mining towns, and colonies or fiefs from various times and places in 
Earth's history.  In all of them, the law still tended to be present at 
least on paper and usually was more interested in representing the bigger 
businesses than anyone else.  The only truly Law Level 0 places I can think 
of from the real world were places that were so unexplored and thinly 
populated that humans never interacted with each other at all, hence no 
need for laws to regulate their interactions.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 04:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 18 03:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
References: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBEA2E8.3622281C@mindspring.com>

Jeff Rowse wrote:

> <snip>
> Jeff
> (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how
> much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight
> slows the game a little..?)

Yes, That's why I assume any hit on a player character completely destroys their
body, brain included.;)

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 04:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 18 03:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If this works, I 'm back
References: <cf.15d25335.29ef89fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CBEA57A.C7BA93A2@mindspring.com>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> OK, could the powers that be resubscribe me for the digest version? I'm
> getting the messages individually, and I don't like that.
>
> Anything happen while I was gone?
>
> Loren Wiseman
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

No, We've been waiting for you.8)


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Yin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
References: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com> <3CBEA2E8.3622281C@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OE50n04x29xDbH8J0sc0000a9f3@hotmail.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:41 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)


> Jeff Rowse wrote:
>
> > <snip>
> > Jeff
> > (By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how
> > much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight
> > slows the game a little..?)
>
> Yes, That's why I assume any hit on a player character completely destroys
their
> body, brain included.;)

With a massive explosion, to boot.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <DAV35mFkQKfzGVJtOU60001b933@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.372953@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV542PI0rNYAhJFyju00017a5b@hotmail.com>
 <DAV71NnQRoVPWnOIwQO00018536@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418064717.00a38870@pop.wizard.net>

Bill Scheets asked the following incisive questions:
>As I began to write on liability insurance for starships I realized
>something:
>
>At the base of this topic is one key issue:  How litigous is the Imperium?

Not very.  Disputes between nobles are settled by higher nobles or the 
Emperor.  The political fortunes of nobles who get involved in a lot of 
disputes tend to be very bad, including even losing their noble 
title.  This conditions the population of nobles to work things out privately.

>Do people sue quickly for even perceived slights?
>   Or are lawsuits rare and
>judgments for the plaintiff rarer still?

Depends on the planet.  This sort of thing usually belongs to planetary 
law, unless it deals with murder, slavery, or treason/sedition against the 
Imperium.  Each planet's law will be determined by its government, which 
may be as litigious or not as it wishes.

>Does the Imperium have a civil court and what jurisdiction does it assert?

Close to the Imperial core, planets tend to be high pop, high law level, 
and with a lot of interstellar commerce.  In such regions, the Imperium's 
wishes to maintain the flow of commerce are much more important than in 
other places.  Reciprocal agreements and extradition treaties between 
worlds have been in place for centuries are fully fleshed out, with 
sufficient bureaucratic backing and law enforcers to keep all that 
machinery running smoothly.  The to-us-familiar apparatus of courts and 
police and regulatory agencies is present, and this includes means of 
resolving civil disputes.  Nobles with power tend to be too busy to spend 
much of their time being directly involved in these matters, but will keep 
their hand in just enough to remind everyone who is boss.  Nobles with more 
title than power can (as has been suggested) and will be made use of to 
help with running the interplanetary justice system whenever things tend to 
bad for public relations or commerce.

Planets in the core will tend to have separate civil and criminal court 
systems.  Their jurisdiction only covers their own planetary governments 
borders.  Contracts between interstellar parties will state which 
jurisdiction they are contracted under, and that jurisdiction's courts will 
rule on disputes over the contract.  Interstellar libel and such will 
either get settled quickly, by a mechanism mutually agreeable to them, by 
the all governments with jurisdiction over the parties to the dispute or 
they can look forward to getting an Imperial noble take a hand in the 
disagreement.  Governments that can't work well with their neighbors in 
civil law disputes will start getting various kinds of pressure from their 
Imperial nobles to conform.  Nobles who also tend to have megacorp ties, 
and who control the gates of interstellar commerce between the worlds.

>Is jury trial available?  Are judges elected? Appointed?

Sure, as are any other systems that the various planetary governments favor.


>What does canon have to say on this?

Not much.  The Imperium rules the space between the planets.  Government of 
men not law.  I vaguely remember some JTAS articles that describe the core 
of the Imperium as being much more an Imperial culture and Imperial 
government than the areas closer to the Imperial borders.  Out on the 
fringes, interstellar commerce is usually not as vitally important to the 
local governments and thus the Imperial nobles who govern those regions of 
space have less influence on the locals.  That's as my memory recalls it, 
and I caution that my memory is often unreliable.

Also canon that I think I recall is that the throne and nobles do tend to 
have significant power with the megacorps, and the megacorps tend to have 
significant power on the planets themselves.  And, presumably, the local 
government joined the Imperium to participate in promoting peace, order, 
and commerce and feel at least a little bit motivated to cooperate with 
each other in settling disputes between their citizens.  Or, maybe they 
just joined out of fear as people on the TML often joke, and deeply resent 
even the perception of infringement on their local authority.  The 
interstellar protection racket that is the Imperium is bad enough, in their 
eyes, without adding cultural imperialism and other interference in their 
planets' affairs.  I don't much believe in the protection racket model of 
the Imperium, but there's plenty of latitude in interpreting canon to 
permit it.  At least outside the core of the Imperium.

>   What do you have to say?

I've pretty much completely spilled my guts on the topic in this and my 
immediately preceding post.

Excellent topic and questions, by the way.  The kind of thing each referee 
should address and answer for themselves before they begin a campaign that 
involves interstellar travel.  Or even involves businesses that are 
interstellar.  We won't each have the same answers or the same Traveller 
universes, but that's part of the beauty of the Traveller game system.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020418.075038.-101319.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:13:54 +1000 (EST) =?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=
<quakers_united@yahoo.com.au> writes:
> QUOTE
> > Thats why Im practising my running. If any crazy
> > bastard charges me with a pointy stick all he's
> going
> > to see is a cloud of dust ;)
> 
> What, because you have dust in your veins instead of
> blood?  ;-)
> END QUOTE
> 
> No, because I am a vampire from buffy:the vampire
> slayer ;P

But then you would only have to worry if it was a *wooden* pointy
stick... most bayonets aren't made of wood, I suspect.  ;-)


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 05:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Thu Apr 18 04:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why Not? (was 'Why?')
Message-ID: <F270DabigPasSmz6UuE00011c1e@hotmail.com>

In mail, Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> responded to my 
somewhat ill-written missive thus...

>But these discussions ARE fun!

To which I reply...

Most of the time, anyway.  It is just that I have noticed that we often end 
up with some of us (myself included) saying "That wouldn't happen that way 
because..." - forex, Piracy or the effect of a ship's own hull and mass 
being within 100D of the jump point.
Whilst I appreciate the free education I receive from my fellow TML'ers (how 
much would a college or university charge for some of the stuff we give out 
for free??), I don't need to know it as a player character.

So, what is my ship's fuel tank lined with such that the Hydrogen doesn't 
seep out of it?  Ah, Unobtanium.  Wait a second, isn't that what powers the 
lasers I use to shoot holes in an Ethically-Challenged Merchant's ship?

As a matter of idle curiosity, does anyone *really* calculate such things as 
how much liver tissue was damaged, or is it just a case of "Sorry, there 
wasn't enough of the organ left to transplant"..?

Jeff.

"Abandon hope, all ye who press 'Enter' here..."

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 06:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Apr 18 05:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Thunderer class heavy cruiser
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEILEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

For those interested in the ships that could have thought in the
Interstellar War period I present the

THUNDERER CLASS HEAVY CRUISER
FORMER SOLOMANI CONFEDERATION


The Thunderer class were one of the first "battleship" designs built by the
Terrans following their contact with the Vilani.The rapidly advancing
technology of the Terrans soon made the design obsolete and they were
reclassified as heavy cruisers.

Designs effectively identical to the Thunderer continued to be built in
backwater areas and some of these managed to survive until the Second
Solomani Rim War when virus struck the region.

The relatively low tech level of the design meant that a large number were
passed on to client states, allies, and governments the Solomani were trying
to curry favour with. It is possible that at least some vessels of this
class are still in existance.


General Data Displacement: 90,000 tons  Hull Armour: 320
Length: 272 meters  Volume: 1,260,000 cubic meters
Price: MCr26,959.930864  Target Size: L
Configuration: Cylinder SL  Tech Level: 10
Mass (Loaded/Empty): 1,089,834.5929/1,020,193.4023tons

Engineering Data Power Plant: 162,000 Mw Fusion Power Plant (50 Mw/hit), 1
year duration (959.888 Mw surplus)
Jump Performance: 2xJump-1 (126,000 cubic meters each)
G-Rating: 3 (45,000 Mw/G), No Contra-Grav Lifters
G-Turns: 80 (102.4 allowing fuel for 1xJump-1, 124.8 with no jump reserve),
5,625 cubic meters each
Maintenance: 41,398

Electronics Computer: 3xTL10 Fb (0.6 Mw each)
Commo: 3x1,000AU Radio (8, 20 Mw ea), 3x1,000AU Maser (8, 0.6 Mw ea)
Avionics: TL10 Avionics
Sensors: 2xPassiveEMS Fixed Array 180,000km (6 hexes; 0.35 Mw ea),
3xActiveEMS 480,000km (DF Capable; 16 hexes; 315 Mw ea), 2xTL10 Neutrino
Sensor (0.01 Mw ea), 20x Running Lights (0.0001 Mw each)
ECM/ECCM: 300,000km EMS Jammer (10 hexes; 260 Mw), EM Masking (1,260 Mw)
Controls: Bridge with 662xBridge Workstations, Auxiliary Bridge with
662xBridge Workstations, Fire Control Bridge with 231xBridge, Flag Bridge
with 11xBridge Workstations, plus 2,430 Other workstations.

Armament Offensive: 1xTL10 30000-Mj N-PAW (Loc: Spinal; Arcs: 1; 4,166.667
Mw; 67 Crew), 40xTL10 812-Mj Laser 50-ton Bays (Loc: 10x4, 10x5; Arcs:
1,2,3; Loc: 10x16, 10x17; Arcs: 3,4,5; 112.778 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea), 280xTL10
130-Mj Laser Turrets (Loc: 70x2,70x3; Arcs: 1,2,3; Loc: 70x18,70x19; Arcs:
3,4,5; 18.0555 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea), 100xMissile Barbettes (Loc: 20x4, 20x5; 5
ready Missiles or Recce Drones ea; 0.15 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea)

 				Short  	Medium  	Long  	Extreme
30000-Mj Spinal N-PAW  	10:866  	20:866  	40:866  	80:866
-1 Diff Level
812-Mj Laser 50ton-Bay  8:1/23-71  	16:1/12-37  32:1/6-19  	64:1/3-9
-1 Diff Level
130-Mj Laser Turret  	3:1/9-29  	6:1/5-15  	12:1/2-7  	24:1-4
-1 Diff Level

Defensive: 30xTL10 Sandcaster Turrets (Loc: 10x1; Arcs: 1,2; Loc: 10x10;
Arcs: 2,3,4; Loc: 10x20; Arcs: 4,5; 1D10x5 per hit; 20 Cannisters ea; 1 Mw
ea; 1 Crew ea)
Master Fire Directors: 1xTL10 (3 Diff Mod; Non-Msl; 10 hexes; 13.22 Mw; 1
Crew), 40xTL10 (3 Diff Mod; Non-Msl; 8 hexes; 11.43 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea),
140xTL10 (3 Diff Mod; Non-Msl; 3 hexes; 8.074 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea), 50xTL10 (3
Diff Mod; Beam/Missile; 10 hexes; 13.37 Mw ea; 1 Crew ea)

Accomodations
Life Support: Extended (252 Mw), Gravitic Compensators (1G; 6300 Mw)
Crew: 5,492 (2,430xEngineering, 10xElectronics, 4xManeuver, 748xGunner,
522xMaintenance, 150xShip's Troops, 74xFlight Crew, 1,310xCommand,
199xStewards, 45xMedical), Flagship adds 12 (5xElectronics, 6xCommand,
1xSteward)
Crew Accomodations: 8xLarge Staterooms (0.001 Mw each), 2,050xSmall
Staterooms (0.0005 Mw each), 550xLow Berths (0.001 Mw each)
Passenger Accomodations: None
Cargo: 9,651.2 cubic meters, twenty eight large cargo hatches
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: 10 95-ton Cinnabar class shuttles with
internal hangers (minimal) and one launch port each, 2 50-ton Shrike class
fighters with internal hangers (minimal) and one launch port each, and 8
40-ton Pelican class launches with internal hangers (minimal) and one launch
port each
Air Locks: 900
Additional Fittings: 3x8-ton Sick Bay (0.8 Mw each), 5x10-ton Machine Shop
(1 Mw each), 5x6-ton Electronics Shop (0.6 Mw each)

Notes:

Fuel purification machinery (1,123.2 Mw) sufficient to purify 140,400 cubic
meters in 6 hours (30 hours for entire load exclusive of power plant fuel).
Fuel scoop capacity 252,000 cubic meters per hour.

DAMAGE TABLES
Area  Surface Hits  		Internal Explosion  				Systems
1  	1-13:Ant  			1:PA,2:Sand,3-20:Qtrs  				PP-3240H,
2-3  	1-13:Ant  			1:PA,2-3:LB,4-15:Elec,16-20:Hold  		LS-1702H,FPP-1545H,
4-5  	1-3:Ant,4-5:AL  		1:PA,2-3:LBy,4:MB,5-14:Qtrs,15-20:Hold
ELS-851H,JD-756H,
6-9  	EMMR  			1:PA,2-20:Hold  					PA-391H,
10   					1:PA,2:Sand,3-20:Hold  				Hanger-384H,
11  	1-2:AL,3-6:CH,7-9:EMMR 	1:PA,2-20:Hold  					MD-135H,
12-13   				1:PA,2-20:Hold  					EMM-126H,
14-15	1-10:LP  			1:PA,2-20:Hold  					LBy-10H,LB-2H,
16-17   				1:PA,2-3:LBy,4-8:Eng,9-20:Hold  		AEMS-1H,ElecShop-1H,
18-19	1-2:AL  			1:PA,2-3:LB,4-20:Eng  				EMJammer-1H,
20   					1:PA,2:Sand,3-20:Eng  				LSR-1H,MB-1H,
   												MFD-1H,MFAnt-1H,
   												MachineShop-1H,
   												Neutrino-1H,
   												PEMAnt-1H,
   												Sand-1H,
   												SickBay-1H,
   												EMMR-(1260h),
   												SSR-(2h),
   												All others-(1h)

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 07:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Thu Apr 18 06:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

  I'm almost of the opinion that
> officers 
> > should be enlisted first
Amen to that. Was it ever like that though? Does
anybody know when it stopped if it was? And Why?
I think it instills elitism in the wrong kind of
people and the wrong kind of people are less likely to
be patient enough for a couple of years as a grunt.
Not to say that we don't have some fine officers now,
but they still need to know what it's like to be
treated like a pawn in a chess game. I doubt this
ideology would work well for pilots though.
I was never in the military,but was in AFROTC for a
while,we had a great bunch of guys and gals(with a
couple of bad eggs) but I don't know if they had it
where it counted or not. In ROTC you see a lot of
people with their heads way up in the clouds.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 08:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Thu Apr 18 07:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #416 - 37 msgs
Message-ID: <F50D2nTe1CIGj0gsmDz0000076e@hotmail.com>

In mail, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
wrote...
<<SNIP>>
Can I fly? Nooo.. Change the course of mighty rivers?  Not even.  Cloud the 
minds of men? I don't think so!

I want my money (along with my spleen) back.
<</SNIP>>

I dispute that third point.
<zombie_mode>
"Must get GT:Ground Forces...  Don't need food...  Dont need coffee...  Just 
Ground forces..."
</zombie_mode>

Jeff.

"Black helo?  What black helo?  <pause>  Oh sh**!"

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 08:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 18 07:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8E429CE.4E9EA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/18/02 6:46 AM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> I'm almost of the opinion that
>> officers 
>>> should be enlisted first
> Amen to that. Was it ever like that though? Does
> anybody know when it stopped if it was? And Why?

Just bear in mind that there is a reason for the distance between officers
and enlisted (speaking as one who has been both).  As officers you will be
required to give orders to your men that will result in their death or
maiming.  You will know this before hand.  It requires a certain detachment
(at least for non-sickos) to order men to their deaths.

I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that an officer should be required
to be enlisted first.  It's hard to say.  I've seen both kinds of officers,
some good and some bad.  I've seen people who came up through the ranks have
a hard time maintaining 'distance' from their people. Also, the duties of
the two groups are very different.

I suppose one could look at how we've done so far.  The vast majority of our
(US) officers come from ROTC.  We seem to be doing OK.  If it ain't broke,
don't fix it.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 08:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Thu Apr 18 07:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
References: <F73qljWwY0VnkB4ltFl00000f6f@hotmail.com> <3CBEA2E8.3622281C@mindspring.com> <OE50n04x29xDbH8J0sc0000a9f3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CBEDD60.2050002@gmx.net>

Jeff Yin wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "alan spik" <babyduck@mindspring.com>
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:41 AM
>Subject: Re: [TML] Why? (was 'Jumping at 0 Diameters', plus others)
>
>
>>Jeff Rowse wrote:
>>
>>><snip>
>>>Jeff
>>>(By the way, am I the only one who finds that figuring out exactly *how
>>>much* of each internal organ was destroyed by each bullet in a gunfight
>>>slows the game a little..?)
>>>
>>Yes, That's why I assume any hit on a player character completely destroys
>>
>their
>
>>body, brain included.;)
>>
>
>With a massive explosion, to boot.
>
more likely: a massive explosion leaving behind a pair of smoking boots...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 09:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 08:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAGEIOCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3CBEE39B.6060103@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Bruce and Doug complain about their lack of superpowers
> <snip>
> 
> How do you think I feel?  I've straddled many a
> thermonuclear warhead, in the forlorn hopes that
> something would happen (super mutant children, for
> one).
> 
> Nothing!

Well did you wave your hat around and yell 'Yeee Haaa!' ???



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 09:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 18 08:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418055518.00a9a050@pop.wizard.net>; from laning@wizard.net on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 06:43:42AM -0400
References: <200204161944.EEZ03368@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <3CBC96CD.6000505@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020418055518.00a9a050@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <20020418091957.A21336@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 06:43:42AM -0400, laning wrote:
> 
> I think the Dodge City reference is usually more apt than the Heinlein 
> reference.  In other words, I'm thinking that territories of the United 
> States before they became states, during the 1800s, are very instructive 
> about the behavior of people when there's no law present.

Not just that, but large numbers of young men and very few women.  In
fact, ISTR a Scientific American article some years back examining
just that subject.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I don't want to achieve immortality through my work.  I want to achieve
it by not dying.                                          --Woody Allen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 09:55:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 08:55:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20020417200008.009f3500@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418084245.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>

At 08:07 PM 4/17/02 -0600, you wrote:

>         Didn't you get the Control Penguins Power?  I thought you had, or 
> maybe it was the Penguin Projection Power .  No, wait, isn't that the 
> Bits project, Penguin Projection?  Geez, now I'm really confused. :)

Maybe I do cloud the minds of mortal men..

>         By the way, I just got my copy of ACQ.  You have been added to 
> the list of games I will buy just because of the author's demonstrated 
> competance.

Wow. Thank you, and hope you enjoy shooting things with glee.  Just 
remember one rule. Never spend more than half you APP in your round, unless 
you are ambushing someone. Always leave enough to react to the other guy's 
move.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:17:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:17:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <p04330106b8e3cd72c219@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019146600.6212.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:
> 
> Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that 
> gets powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an 
> "accident", so maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but 
> whether it was "accidental".  :-)

Nah, it can be 'test subject'.  Captain America, for example.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Charge accumulation
Message-ID: <200204181629.EMH01314@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I remember when doing sling loads with helicopters, that 
before you attach the sling, you have to ground the hovering 
helicopter.  If you don't, you can get a shock powerful 
enough to throw you to the ground.  It's an accumulation of 
static by the rotor blades moving through the air.  Rather 
like a Van de Graff device.  You can also see the rotor tips 
glowing from this charge at night, especially using night 
vision.

Well, in Traveller, we're in a metal ship. We are constantly 
being bombarded by ions flowing from the nearby star.  Does 
our ship accumulate any charge?  If you park two ships near 
each other, is there a charge differential?  Is it 
significant?  If I touched both of the ships at the same 
time, would the charge difference want to flow through me?

Do engines such as HEPLAR exacerbate this charge difference 
by pushing charged material away from the ship?

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEHICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>
>
>Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to
>enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign judgments?

If the Imperium allows its members to go to war with one another, it
certainly does not require them to enforce each others' judgments.

Whether a world will enforce a judgment rendered on another world depends on
various factors:  does a treaty between the worlds govern the issue? if not,
do standards of comity apply? what is the current political situation
between the worlds?  There is plenty of work for lawyers in a system as
complex as the Imperium.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:42:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:42:49 2002
Subject: ret: [TML] New Filk
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHJCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I put this up on my Live Journal, but it didn't get much response there, so
>I'd thought I'd post it here.
>
>Flaming Eye

Common brigands seek interstellar support by recasting themselves as racial
freedom fighters -- I like it!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204181647.EMH04030@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson asks
>
>Well did you wave your hat around and yell 'Yeee Haaa!' ???
>
Indeed.

There are many opportunities to relive moments from various 
movies when you are in a nuclear missile unit.

One interesting thing:  I ended up writing a bit of software 
to keep track of the status of the battalion's missiles 
(which ones were away, counting, etc.).  The various platoons 
would report their status via the program over radio modem 
rather than by voice.  In the requirements, they wanted to 
know time of flight, but didn't care about time of impact.

I put it in anyway.  During one exercise, the officers were 
crowded around in the BCC, drinking coffee after the count, 
and I interrupted the festivities by announcing, "<name of 
city>, impact in 5.. 4... 3... 2.."  Everyone was very upset, 
as they didn't even want to think about what happens after 
they succeed in launching.

Never, ever sign someone up as an infantryman, and then tell 
him halfway through his term that "because you were a 
programmer in civilian life, we're going to make you one 
here, because we're short programmers.  We don't know who 
assigned you here, but we've no use for you otherwise.".

The consolation prize was that when not writing programs, I 
had the keys to the arms room.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Charge accumulation
In-Reply-To: <200204181629.EMH01314@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019148621.4086.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> Well, in Traveller, we're in a metal ship. We are constantly 
> being bombarded by ions flowing from the nearby star.  Does 
> our ship accumulate any charge?

Probably.

> If you park two ships near each other, is there a charge differential?
> Is it significant?  If I touched both of the ships at the same 
> time, would the charge difference want to flow through me?

Once grounded, any charge should dissipate fairly rapidly.
> 
> Do engines such as HEPLAR exacerbate this charge difference 
> by pushing charged material away from the ship?

No, it seems to eject plasma, with a probable net charge of zero.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 10:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Apr 18 09:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204180015090.24858-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020417010106.E5149279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418125300.0228bff0@mail.qrc.com>

At 06:28 PM 4/17/2002, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>Do you mean 9,000 systems rather than the 10,000 there's supposed to be?
>IIRC the figures are 11,000 worlds in 10,000 systems

Back in the day, my analysis of the old sector data files found about 
10,500 worlds coded Imperial (or for imperial cultural regions), so that's 
what my Imperial GNP figure was based on.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 10:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Charge accumulation
In-Reply-To: <200204181629.EMH01314@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418095458.009eb9c0@mindspring.com>

At 12:29 PM 4/18/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I remember when doing sling loads with helicopters, that
>before you attach the sling, you have to ground the hovering
>helicopter.  If you don't, you can get a shock powerful
>enough to throw you to the ground.  It's an accumulation of
>static by the rotor blades moving through the air.  Rather
>like a Van de Graff device.  You can also see the rotor tips
>glowing from this charge at night, especially using night
>vision.

I learned that you had better check this for yourself rather than trust the 
new guy to actually have done this.  If I had hair, it would have been 
standing on end.  As it was, I had a nasty burn on my foot where the charge 
exited my body and an irregular heartbeat for several hours, enough to get 
me a free helicopter ride out of East Rain.

>Well, in Traveller, we're in a metal ship. We are constantly
>being bombarded by ions flowing from the nearby star.  Does
>our ship accumulate any charge?  If you park two ships near
>each other, is there a charge differential?  Is it
>significant?  If I touched both of the ships at the same
>time, would the charge difference want to flow through me?

SOM had ships with probes to allow discharge of accumulated charges, and to 
attract lightning bolts during wilderness refueling.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 11:05:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 10:05:17 2002
Subject: ret: [TML] New Filk
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEHJCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418095901.009f31b0@mindspring.com>

At 09:35 AM 4/18/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> >
> >I put this up on my Live Journal, but it didn't get much response there, so
> >I'd thought I'd post it here.
> >
> >Flaming Eye
>
>Common brigands seek interstellar support by recasting themselves as racial
>freedom fighters -- I like it!

(Takes bow)

I got the inspiration while reading a book about Anne Bonney and Mary Read 
at the same time as a book about the mythical Werewolf units, SS troops 
that were supposed to start a guerilla war against the Allies. It struck me 
that some Vilani would refuse to surrender, and go pirate.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Thu Apr 18 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Some Info...
Message-ID: <OF98BD72DE.DB3A42D5-ON85256B9F.005EA550@pheaa.org>

do we have any Aeronautical Engineers on the list?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 12:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Si)
Date: Thu Apr 18 11:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Some Info...
References: <OF98BD72DE.DB3A42D5-ON85256B9F.005EA550@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <3CBF16E6.327D72C5@virgin.net>

William Lane wrote:

> do we have any Aeronautical Engineers on the list?
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Yes.  Me!

Si

And there is one other i believe.

:-)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 13:58:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 12:58:24 2002
Subject: [TML] LNG hazards, liquid hydrogen hazards
In-Reply-To: <20020418082212.A31848@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20418.115507.2p7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > I think we're talking past each other.  Why do I want LOX at all?
> ...
>> You want it because you were making such a fuss about not being able
>> to use oxygen to convert methane to water and CO2 because you'd lose
>> the oxygen if you threw away the CO2.
>
> I did.  That doesn't mean I want to have a special LOX tank just in
> case I can find hydrogen but not water.  Most of the time I'm going to
> be buying water from the starport I'm docked at.  Most of the rest of
> the time, I'll be getting it from iceballs or seas.  That's much safer
> than gas giant skimming, if nothing else.  In a desperate situation, I
> *might* come across a system that has a gas giant but no water.  (The
> only plausible cases I can think of involve a gas giant inside the
> star's 100D limit) In that case I can still skim hydrogen gas and
> process it into the LHyd tank for a 1-parsec jump.  If there is any
> water in the GG atmosphere (likely if there is no water elsewhere), I
> can collect that too, diffuse though it may be.

At reasonable altitudes that water is going to be *really* scarce.

>> Only at the cost of *not* being able to refuel by scopping at a gas
>> giant. The atmosphere is 90%+ hydrogen.
>
> That just means you need to spend a bit longer scooping for the other
> stuff, a time which in itself is relatively minor compared to the time
> taken to get to and from a gas giant's 100D limit.  But why perform
> that dangerous maneuver at all when you've got almost always got
> lovely little microgravity water sources nowhere near so deep into a
> 100D limit?

Don't ask me. The rules seem to think it's a good idea. :-)

>> No, but you can't use the water for drinking,
>
> I can after I remove the ammonia.

>> and it needs special handling as ammonia water is corrosive.
>
> Scary.  You were talking about hundreds of tons of cryogenic LH2.
> Ever looked up the MSDS for that?

You are stuck handling the stuff anyway. The difference between
"minimal" tankage for it, and storing all your fuel that way isn't
going to change the hazards all that much.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 13:59:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 12:59:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEEDDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20418.120147.7F3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> >> The main reason Mercury is denser than Earth is because Mercury is so
>> >> much closer to the sun that a lot of lighter elements were 
>> "boiled" off.
>> >
>> > Um, I think you'll find that Mercury is *less* dense than Earth.  Just
>> > a nitpick.
>> 
>> I was going by the figures in the post I was responding to, which had a
>> higher density listed for Mercury.
>
> No, they didn't. I quoted 5.43 for Mercury, 5.52 for Earth.

The *original* post (not yours) quoted 5.56 for Mercury.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:00:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:00:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417165617.00a9ea90@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <20418.120339.3g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Besides I'm not expecting a totally ferric planet. Just one with more iron
>>that the Earth, and a density in excess of 6, and maybe higher (6.5? 7.0?).
>>An extra 0.48 g/cc is not a big deal, I would have thought. Not common
>>perhaps, but it is a big universe after all. In all of the millions of
>>planetary systems theoretically existent in the Milky Way, that number will
>>come up eventually.
>
> There is a simple way to make planets more dense without changing the basic 
> composition. Bigger terrestrial worlds will have higher density because of 
> compression, which is far more effective for bigger bodies. Just adding 
> more rock will make the rock more dense.
>
> Earth has a compressed density higher than Mercury, but the uncompressed 
> density is considerably less. If a planet had the composition of Mercury 
> and the radius of Earth, which potentially could happen in an decently 
> iron-rich inner system with a major collision between two large rocky 
> worlds, that planet would have even greater density than Mercury has, say, 
> somewhere between 6 and 6.5. If a world with the composition of Earth is 
> 50% greater in radius it also would likely have higher density than Earth.

On the other hand, unless that collision happened *really* late in the
formation of the system, such a plent would tend to collect a lot more
gas and other stuff, and possibly wind up as a mini-GG.

Above a certain point, you get runaway accumulation of material, which
results in a gas giant of some sort.

*Where* that point is is subject to a lot of debate as we don't have
enough of a sample set to draw the line except *very* broadly. 

Also, that major collision is just as apt to scatter pieces of those
rocky world halfway across the system.

> On the other hand, if we think of an Earth-size world with the composition 
> of Mars, it would still have a density of say, 4.5 to 5. I'd argue a more 
> common problem in RPGs is that densities for Earth-like worlds are too low. 
> (Big world with low density to generate decent gravity-style.)

I haven't noticed that much.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:01:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:01:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCIEFADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20418.120911.8p9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hi
>
>> Also, the post I was replying to had the wrong density for Mercury, and
>> had it being denser than earth. I didn't check my references until
>> someone pointed out the error.
>
> You were replying to my post, and the densities were correct there.

No. The posts where I referred Mercury being denser were replies to a
post that had Mercury being denser than earth.

Check the levels of quotes. 

> BTW, as an aside, Red Dwarfs display similar relative elemental abundances
> to the Sun, but are many , many times denser.

Yes, but that's due to factors that don't apply to *planets* to any
great extent.

>> Work out the field strength at 100 diameters for size 1 thru 10 planets
>> assuming densities similar to that of earth or even Mars. The figures
>> are *way* off.
>
> Now try the same with tidal forces where the Mars size planet has a density
> equal to that of Mars, and the Earth sized planet has a density equal to
> that of the Earth. Do you get the same answer ? No.

Yes, but you apparently missed the part that shows that to make the
inverse-square forces come out anywhere near equal at 100 diameters,
the *smaller* world has to be the denser one. Having it be less dense
makes the mismatch *worse*.

This is exactly the *opposite* of your example.

With equal densities, the inverse-square forces at 100 diameters is
greater for larger worlds in direct proportion to the ratio of the
diameters of the worlds. 

So, assuming that the forces are in direct proportion to the mass of
the planet, to get them to match at 100 diameters, the density of the
larger world must be lower. 

Since this is the exact oposite of the situation for "typical" (in
Traveller) "worlds" (ie what gets generated as mainworlds and non-GG,
non-asteroid/cometary halo bodies) invoking density differences as
a reason to prefer inverse square forces (acceleration due to gravity,
"slope" of the gravity well, etc) over inverse cube forces (tidal
acceleration, curvature of space, etc) is silly.

> This only works if all
> of the 10 worlds in your calculation have the same density, which makes no
> sense.

But that's what the rules *explicitly* state in the first three books.

It's also a good way to make a first cut at analyzing the problem. Vary
*one* property and see what happens in your calculations. This lets you
eliminate the obviously wrong hypotheses (such as "jump limits are
based on inverse square forces"). Then you add in other variables (such
as density) and see what you get.

It's not that different than starting out by calculating Earth's
gravity as if the planet was a perfect sphere of uniform density. A
simplification to get first order results to compare to your data.

> Better to define jump limits in terms of field strengths, tidal force
> values, etc, than a distance/number of diameters. Sure the distance will
> vary, but the rule is then usable in all situations and is more internally
> consistent.

Which is what I advocate. So why are you objecting?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:02:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:02:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLDGIBENPJOMFOLHAOEICCHAA.jtkwon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20418.122806.4f6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Pions can be created by the collision of matter and antimatter.
> The creation time can be tightly controlled.  So the start point
> for acceleration to relativistic speeds is therefore controlled.
>
> It requires far less handwaving than that required for plasma/fusion
> weapons.

Slight problem. You *can't* control the direction the created pions are
moving in. Nor the velocity. All you can say is that the vector sum of
the momenta of the pions will equal that of the original
proton/anti-proton pair. 

And neutral pions can't be affected by electric or magnetic fields,
making focusing them more than a little difficult.

Artifically generated gravity would solve this. Alas, it requires field
strengths that can't be generated in Traveller. Or if they *can*,
they'd make various other things possible that we don't see.

Then again, the same is true of the "grav-focusing" of lasers. 

> Neither of the latter can produce a "bolt" of plasma that
> can fly downrange, in air or in vacuum.  No guide beams, etc, 
> are going to help.

True enough. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:03:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:03:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204171534.EGN02342@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Timothy Little says
>>They aren't lifetimes.  They're *half-lives*.  That is, half 
>>of the original bunch decay *before* 1 half-life has 
>>elapsed, 1/4 decay in the next half-life period, 1/8 in the 
>>half-life after that, etc.
>
> then it's not possible to accelerate *any* mesons at all, 
> given their half-life.  Almost all of them would be gone 
> before they got to the end of the accelerator.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

> Please contact Los Alamos and inform them that the meson 
> accelerator that they have been using since 1968 is a fake.  
> It sends beams of mesons out without irradiating the 
> accelerator.  The only items that become "hot" are in the 
> target area.  Please explain how that is done.

Maybe you need to check out *how* the mesons are created. Usually, it's
done by bombarding a target with a more stable particle (such as
protons or heavy ions) which gives a shower of mesons that are already
moving at relativistic velocities. Then those are fed into a
second-stage accelerator which "loses" non-mesons as the accelerating
fields are varying at the wrong rate for particles with a different
charge to mass ratio.

Or they may use other techniques.

Thing is, what we've been saying about half-lives *is* correct. The
existence of the accelerator doesn't change that. It merely means that
some of *your* assumptions about how it operates are incorrect.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204182026.EMP00817@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

It would seem that the effects of the LAMPF facility's beam 
is lethal enough at 800 MeV, and they plan to raise it to 
80GeV.  

Even without the magical meson effects, the mesons they 
accelerate seem to be able to do enough damage as it is.  
They also seem to be able to accelerate protons, and produce 
neutron beams.  A neutron beam, to me, would seem ideal.  You 
would permanently irradiate the target, etc.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204182026.EMP00817@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019163077.9084.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> It would seem that the effects of the LAMPF facility's beam 
> is lethal enough at 800 MeV, and they plan to raise it to 
> 80GeV. 

Shrug.  Lethal for what?  Large quantities of radiation are bad for things. 
> 
> Even without the magical meson effects, the mesons they 
> accelerate seem to be able to do enough damage as it is. 

Sure, but we call this a 'Particle Accelerator'.  A meson beam has fairly
typical PAW effects.
 
> They also seem to be able to accelerate protons, and produce 
> neutron beams.  A neutron beam, to me, would seem ideal.  You 
> would permanently irradiate the target, etc.

Actually, at high energies just about any type of beam will induce radiation in
the target, since it will tend to blow nuclei apart.  In fact, by around 1 GEv
there's no particular difference in penetration between any particles that
interact via the strong force (including pions, neutrons, protons, and the
relevant antiparticles); in all cases penetration is comparable to cosmic rays,
with a typical penetration of 50-100 grams/cm^2 before the first collision
(this results in a cascade effect as new particles are created; the continued
penetration of the cascade depends on the energy level of the particles, but
500 grams/cm^2 is suitable for 90+% shielding against multi-GEv primary cosmic
rays).

Since meson guns are less affected by armor than conventional particle beams
(which are probably proton accelerators) there must be some special particle
involved.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 14:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 13:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
Message-ID: <200204182056.EMP04739@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

80 GeV sounds like a weapon.

So you're saying at this power level, there's no difference 
in penetration for protons, neutrons, etc.?

Would a stream of positrons be any worse for the target?
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 15:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 14:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEHLCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>
>
>Anthony Jackson said
>
> > >No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
[quotation deleted]
> > I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home
[deletion]
>Nah, if the defendant has a local office (sales outlet, whatever) you can
>sue the local unit.
>
>If the defendant is big and has a local offices sure.  You can play games
>with that though, like having every local office as a separate corporation.
>Because the LIC is granted by the Imperium, local courts probably can not
>break through the corporate veil.

Whatever the answer, it's clear that the Far Future will be a paradise for
lawyers.  Cha-ching!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 15:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 14:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson beams?
In-Reply-To: <200204182056.EMP04739@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019164377.5758.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> 80 GeV sounds like a weapon.

Depends how many particles you have.  80 GEv is a respectable weapon if you
have 10^15 particles or so (total energy ~13 MJ)
> 
> So you're saying at this power level, there's no difference 
> in penetration for protons, neutrons, etc.?

Pretty much.
> 
> Would a stream of positrons be any worse for the target?

Lower penetration, actually.  Best choice for penetration would be muons (for a
neutral beam, perhaps muonium, which is an 'atom' formed by an electron and an
anti-muon, or a positron and a muon)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 15:53:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr 18 14:53:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019146600.6212.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1019146600.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8e4f059a959@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:16 AM -0700 4/18/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>>
>>  Ironically it is always a "scientist" or "innocent bystander" that
>>  gets powers (never "patients").  It always seems to involve an
>>  "accident", so maybe the key isn't how much radiation you get, but
>>  whether it was "accidental".  :-)
>
>Nah, it can be 'test subject'.  Captain America, for example.

OK, so maybe you get super powers if you are exposed to "accidental" 
or "untested" levels.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 17:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 16:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
Message-ID: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>

Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable whatever it is that 
makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML coding? I tried a quoted message and it 
ended up an unholy mess.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 17:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 16:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
Message-ID: <621638DD.3A102E03.02280B06@aol.com>

GDWGAMES@aol.com writes:
> Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable 
> whatever it is that makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML 
> coding? I tried a quoted message and it ended up an unholy 
> mess.

I don't know if you *can* turn off the HTML coding. Gotta
be able to use those cutesy little smileys and special fonts,
after all.

Meanwhile, since at least 6.0 the standard Internet-style
quoting (with the '>' marks) no longer works. I now copy
the text I want to quote to the clipboard, then hand-edit
the '>' marks into the quoted block. Annoying, but the
result is at least clean and readable to multiple email
clients.

---
Jon



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
In-Reply-To: <20418.120911.8p9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEGHDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi

> Yes, but that's due to factors that don't apply to *planets* to any
> great extent.

True, but it was an example of relative abundance being irrelevant to
density, and as such it still stands.

> Yes, but you apparently missed the part that shows that to make the
> inverse-square forces come out anywhere near equal at 100 diameters,
> the *smaller* world has to be the denser one. Having it be less dense
> makes the mismatch *worse*.

I'm not trying to make anything work at 100 diameters. I'm pointing out the
flaw in your insistence of using 100 diameters. Also, my point was that the
densities would be different, so the tidal force argument doesn't work
either. 100D is an arbitrary rule, period. There is no magic formula unless
you cook the books.

> But that's what the rules *explicitly* state in the first three books.

Lots of stuff in the three LBBs has been superceded. Do you really still
generate worlds with just the basic rules ? Or do you use the World
Builder's Handbook, or Book 6, or First In ? If you do, you'll find that
density is not uniform.

> Which is what I advocate. So why are you objecting?

My original post in this thread was to do with the maximum mass for a
starship before its own gravitational field caused a misjump, a logical
extension of the existing canon background. I seem to remember you corrected
me and told me that tidal forces must be the reason for the 100 diameter
rule, which then reduced the maximum mass and/or density of a starship
before a misjump occurred to smaller than a Type S Scout. I'd disagree with
the latter consequence as it is inconsistent with the background.

Anyhow, we're arguing over nothing. Let's call it a day. IYTU, do as you
will shall be the whole of the law.

Regards

Andy Brick










---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 17/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20418.143129.3R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> My courts apply the same burden of proof in both civil and criminal
> cases, in my case "on the balance of probabilities" rather than
> "beyond reasonable doubt". Juries are not a recognised concept and
> instead panels of nobles ranging from one to the entire moot,
> depending on the case, make decisions after hearing argument. It does
> not take a genius to work out that the system is highly open to abuse.

Problem is, "beyond reasonable doubt" and "jury of your peers" *both*
came about because of abuses.

Jury of peers dates back to the Magna Carta and was put there by
*nobles who were upset about abuses by the king. And note that "jury of
your peers" basicly means nobles would get tried by nobles.... <eg>
I can't see a stable Imperium *not* having something like that. At
least at some levels. 

And if you define "peers" properly, it works with both "government of
men, not laws" and nobles having "extra" priveleges.

the beyond reasonable doubt bit is also apt to develop if only because
convicting innocent people tends to get their friends and relatives
upset with the government. 

And if someone is a vassal of a noble, the noble is going to insist on
stronger evidence as well.

On the other hand, we have (at least) two different system to draw
from. In the "French" system, the "proving" of guilt is relegated to
the "police" side of things. It's (supposed to be) harder to file
charges without a lot of proof. But once filed, you have to prove
yourself innocent.

The "English" system has the filing of charges be much simpler, but
then at trial (supposedly) they have to prove you guilty. 

I suspect that there are other systems to be found in history. 

Local governments should be pretty free to have laws that don't
conflict with Imperial interests. And to be as "just" or "unjust" as
they care to be, as long as it's (theoretically) possible for people to
leave.

Commercial laws may actually be more uniform, simply because the
Imperium is an empire based on "free" trade. Which means it pretty much
requires the laws covering contracts and the like to be uniform. 

What sort of contracts are legal may vary from world to world. But the
rules on drawing them up, enforcing them, and assigning liability for
failures will be fairly standard.

The *penalties* on the other hand... <eg>

So while the decision as to the validity of a contract and whether or
not one party has failed in carrying out there part might be much the
same on the homeworld of each party, the legality of the good or
service contracted for may vary greatly. As may the consequences of
failure to carry out the contract.

On world A, defaulting may merely involve either "best effort" to
correct the failure with financial liability up to the value of the
good/service or the bankruptcy limit (whichever is smaller), on world B
defaulting may result in becoming an indentured servant of the other
party until you can make good the loss. and on world C the damaged
party may be able to opt to have you tortured or even put to death,
with a scale set up based on the magnitude of the loss. 

So which world's law governs could be *really* important. And the PCs
who don't check into the details could really regret it. <g>

> There is no real distinction between civil and criminal law at the Imperial 
> level. Instead all cases are treated in the same way and dealt with through 
> the same channels. The main difference is that in some cases precedent holds 
> that the court should appoint Imperial investigators to gather evidence. In 
> other cases the burden of investigation lies entirely with the litigant. 

Aside from Imperial crimes, most "Imperial" level litigation will be
civil anyway. Salvage cases, contracts that get appealed (not many
will, unless the situation is either complicated or the parties to the
contract specified that Imperial courts would be used to resolve
problems), etc.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:25:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:25:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <F18T2Y89RdrUnR65Cbk00002a25@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20418.145258.6Y3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
>>Sam D writes:
>> > Even if you got a judgment on a particular world, how are you going to
>> > enforce it.  Is there mandatory full faith a credit for foreign 
>>judgments?
>>
>>No, but if the subject of the judgement has on-world holdings, it's not
>>difficult for the world to enforce it.  Sort of like how judgements in 
>>state
>>courts work.
>
> I like that idea very much.  You have sue the defendant on his home turf, 
> because that is the only place you can collect.  That should discourage 
> litigation, and make a lot of lawyers rich with asset protection seminars.  
> Maybe some worlds would become big Switzerlands where the wealthy hide their 
> dough.
>
> So I guess you would sue free traders where there ship is registered, 
> because that is where title would be?  Then how do you actually get 
> possession if other worlds are free to ignore the judgments of other worlds?

That's *why* the Imperium pretty much *has* to enforce some sort of
rules about contract laws when more than one world/government is
involved. Otherwise trade becomes much harder to carry on. And that's
not good for the Imperium.

Civil cases that don't affect interworld trade and criminal cases that
don't violate the few Imperial "criminal" laws will only get dealt with
if some noble with jurisdiction (ie a noble from an involved planet, a
susector level noble from the subsector the dispute is in, etc) decides
to get involved.

So, if you can get a noble from your planet involved, you may get some
action. But only if he can get the noble in charge of the other planet
interested in discussing it with him.

Better is if the worlds are in the same sub-sector and you can
get a subsector-level noble involved as he has authority over both
worlds. If they are in different subsectors, but the same sector, then
you need to get a sector level noble interested. 

If they are in different sectors but the same domain, then you may need
the Archduke to get involved. And if they are in different domains,
you'll have to appeal to the Emperor. 

And if you are dealing between the Imperium and some other interstellar
polity, it could get *really* ugly.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:25:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:25:41 2002
Subject: [TML] The L-E Digest?
In-Reply-To: <F82qi8VjUwZcSlVviFl0000bd6b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20418.163302.7i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In mail, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) asked:
>
>>Nah, if everyone who goofed did that who'd be posting? :-)
>
> <tongue-in-cheek>
> Um, just you?
> </tongue-in-cheek>

Excuse me? I'm far from infallible. As should be obvious from a few
recent posts.... :-(

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <007901c1e739$fb4c0560$9bb18b90@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm
> going to sue somebody.

It could be worse.  Have you seen the (very fine) movie 'Mystery Men'?  You
could have become The Spleen.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 18:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Thu Apr 18 17:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBF6B82.9FD041AE@mailbag.com>

> From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
>
> Heinlein is often invoked in the science fiction world as an example of
> libertarian principles at work.  I don't know how many have read his story
> 'Coventry', which was set inside a huge area cordoned off by the U.S. and
> completely without laws.  Citizens of the U.S. who broke the law were
> banished to Coventry to live among the other people who felt they didn't
> need the law.  Contrary to the expectations of the rugged individualist who
> starts the story about to enter Coventry, the people inside Coventry
> evolved their own law, but one that was imposed by the biggest sharks in
> the pool and not so kind and gentle as the law they had just left
> behind.  This was Heinlein's story that most directly addressed the issue,
> and with writer as judge of the conflict between different poliltical
> systems, he clearly found in favor of the democratic one and against the
> libertarian one.

Thank you for remembering this. I knew there was a quite well written
refutation in his work but I had forgotten the name. 

As a fairly hard lefty (hey I am a member of the DSA.
http://www.dsausa.org if you don't know them. Keep in mind that I keep
that link  in my religion folder... ;') I had a difficult time
understanding some of his works when I was a teen. The way "Coventry" is
written makes it very clear that a democracy that passes things against
his ideals is a better place to him than a tyrany that is exactly in
line with his thought. It's also useful to understand that one can
respect while disagreeing. 

 I've learned alot from his books - and even more after I did 16 years
in the US Army/National Guard/Army Reserve. OTOH, it's fun sometimes to
be the token lefty... 

William
-- 
You better watch out    What you wish for;
It better be worth it   So much to die for.
                                Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 18 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Civil law in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20418.143129.3R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>; from shadow@krypton.rain.com on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 02:31:29PM -0800
References: <cb.20c509e0.29ef4d84@aol.com> <20418.143129.3R4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020418190201.A22643@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 02:31:29PM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> Jury of peers dates back to the Magna Carta and was put there by
> nobles who were upset about abuses by the king.  And note that "jury
> of your peers" basicly means nobles would get tried by nobles....

And commoners by commoners.  I believe it was Blackstone who commented
that all this ties into the presumption of innocence, fair trial,
burden of proof on the prosecution complex.  The idea being that
commoners are more likely to favour their own, and nobility their own,
and thus that things are slanted in favour of the defendant.  Which is
a Good Thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron--more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to mankind.
                              --Mirelle Stein, The Productive Class

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 19:04:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 18 18:04:37 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>; from GDWGAMES@aol.com on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 07:30:44PM -0400
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020418190346.B22643@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 07:30:44PM -0400, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>
> Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable whatever it
> is that makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML coding? I tried a
> quoted message and it ended up an unholy mess.

Does AOL offer SMTP and (POP3 or IMAP) to its subscribers?  If so, you
can use any mail client you wish.  I understand that Mozilla's is very
good, for those who like GUI clients.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A PC without windows is like a chocolate cake without mustard.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 18 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Thu Apr 18 18:08:02 2002
Subject: Officer Candidates (was Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets)
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CBF6DB5.E1C86E36@mailbag.com>

> From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
>   I'm almost of the opinion that
> > officers
> > > should be enlisted first

I've long felt that not only should prior service be required, but that
promotion to E-5 be required before acceptance into any officer training
program. This, essentially, requires that the gentle serves at least one
term as a grunt first. I've seen some who took the OCS test in the
middle of basic who weren't any better than the ROTC things that we
occasionally got stuck with. OTOH, pointers were far worse...  
 
As a soldier and as a sergeant, I always respected the mavericks far
more - if they gave you a shit detail they had probably shoveled the
same shit at some point. Unlike any of the rest.

William
-- 
You better watch out    What you wish for;
It better be worth it   So much to die for.
                                Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:08:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:08:11 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20418.214954.3L6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Can someone familiar with AOL 7.0 tell me how to disable whatever it
> is that makes the *#$&$^#^% messages use HTML coding? I tried a
> quoted message and it ended up an unholy mess.

	http://expita.com/nomime.html


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:12:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:12:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Sandcasters, noncanon
Message-ID: <21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a@aol.com>

--part1_21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always had trouble with 
the idea of a line of seperately-designed launchers being required to fire 
"sand", so I decided to just do away with them IMTU; allowing the typical 
missile launcher to fire several different types of munitions; with "sand" 
being used in its usual role as a screen to counter incoming missiles or 
energy beam fire, as well as it acting as a fairly effective antipersonnel 
weapon (Striker, bk2).
  -Ken Murphy-
  
   
   
   

--part1_21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always had trouble with the idea of a line of seperately-designed launchers being required to fire "sand", so I decided to just do away with them IMTU; allowing the typical missile launcher to fire several different types of munitions; with "sand" being used in its usual role as a screen to counter incoming missiles or energy beam fire, as well as it acting as a fairly effective antipersonnel weapon (Striker, bk2).
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR> &nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_21.1ca90a8b.29f1040a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:17:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:17:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
Message-ID: <200204190140.EMZ01428@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was just looking at something called Electric Tokamak, and 
I noticed that in one of the pictures, they were using 
hydrogen plasma, and in a few others, helium plasma.  I 
thought that this was strange, since no machine built yet 
achieves a high beta (high enough to break even, that is).

In their "introduction" section, they talk about the machine 
being able to use "low-neutron yield fusion fuels" in the 
future with this design.

It makes me think that their intent in the end is to use 
helium rather than hydrogen.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:19:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:19:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Could some kind soul please contact me off-List with some links to 
sites that list various combat formation TO&Es?  I've tried Google until my 
eyes crossed with no avail.  As you all well know, I'm not the sharpest tool 
in the shed and my surfing abilities suffer as a consequence.
     The recent TML thread discussing unit TO&Es and the well deserved 
praise for Mr. Berry's accomplishments regarding them in GT:GF gave me cause 
to flush all the unit descriptions in my "Dirty Little War" project.
     Specifically, I'm interested in TO&Es from the turn of the last 
century, say the 1905/Russo-Japanese War to 1918/Great War range.  This 
implies large squad automatic weapons, clunky AFVs, and early combat 
aircraft.
     Thank you.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:21:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:21:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <007901c1e739$fb4c0560$9bb18b90@computer>
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418190001.009e85e0@mindspring.com>

At 10:34 AM 4/19/02 +1000, you wrote:
> > From: Douglas Berry
> > That came with being an alien.  If I became Spleen-Regeneration Man, I'm
> > going to sue somebody.
>
>It could be worse.  Have you seen the (very fine) movie 'Mystery Men'?  You
>could have become The Spleen.

No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!

"Ah, the Disco Room!"


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 00:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 18 23:24:05 2002
Subject: Officer Candidates (was Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets)
In-Reply-To: <3CBF6DB5.E1C86E36@mailbag.com>
References: <20020418190104.6F091279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020418221746.020382a8@192.168.0.1>

At 08:07 PM 4/18/2002 -0500, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:
> > From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
> >   I'm almost of the opinion that
> > > officers
> > > > should be enlisted first
>I've long felt that not only should prior service be required, but that
>promotion to E-5 be required before acceptance into any officer training
>program. This, essentially, requires that the gentle serves at least one
>term as a grunt first. I've seen some who took the OCS test in the
>middle of basic who weren't any better than the ROTC things that we
>occasionally got stuck with. OTOH, pointers were far worse...
>As a soldier and as a sergeant, I always respected the mavericks far
>more - if they gave you a shit detail they had probably shoveled the
>same shit at some point. Unlike any of the rest.

Back when I was a young lad, dear old dad wanted my brother and I to go to 
West Point.

After his tour in scenic Southeast Asia, the tune changed to, "You boys 
wouldn't embarrass your father by going to a military academy."


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!
Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>

On Thursday 18 April 2002 21:37, you wrote:

> Maybe you need to check out *how* the mesons are created. Usually, it's
> done by bombarding a target with a more stable particle 

Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel" 
problems: Nuclear Damping Technology. Obviously this is used inside the 
barrel (And maybe for some distance outside it... remember, Nuclear Dampers 
work at some range... on the order of 30,000 KM. Meson Screens are obviously 
a special type of Nuclear Damper, specifically tuned to decay mesons. If you 
can do that, you can surely do the opposite: Prevent them from Decaying, or 
massively reduce their decay rate) in order to prevent your mesons from 
decaying too early. Mesons are obviously generated, en-masse, by nuclear 
damper style technology also, set up for very short range (i.e. meters, or 
centimeters) but extremely powerful and finely controlled damper-style 
fields. 

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
In-Reply-To: <200204190140.EMZ01428@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200204190140.EMZ01428@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020419184155.A3066@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> It makes me think that their intent in the end is to use helium
> rather than hydrogen.

I would suspect that they intend to study any number of modes of
operation very thoroughly.  To me they seemed to be concentrating more
on pure hydrogen plasmas at the moment, but that would be because this
is meant to be a controlled experiment of their theoretical method,
not a commercial fusion operation.

I did notice a few hydrogen/helium runs, though.  We'll have to see
what the future holds when they see how well this mode of operation
conforms to theory.  :)


With these advances, it looks like large-scale commercial fusion power
is only about twenty years away!
;^>


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>

Brian Caball wrote:
> Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel" 
> problems: Nuclear Damping Technology.

The only problem is, why doesn't a meson gun then function
automatically as a perfect meson screen?  If you can prevent your
mesons decaying over distances of up to millions of kilometres, why
can't you ensure that the other guy's mesons don't decay within a
range of twenty metres?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
Message-ID: <200204190855.BAA14300@ping.iii.com>

Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> writes:

>On Thursday 18 April 2002 21:37, you wrote:
>
>> Maybe you need to check out *how* the mesons are created. Usually, it's
>> done by bombarding a target with a more stable particle 
>
>Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel" 
>problems: Nuclear Damping Technology. Obviously this is used inside the 
>barrel (And maybe for some distance outside it... remember, Nuclear Dampers 
>work at some range... on the order of 30,000 KM. Meson Screens are obviously 
>a special type of Nuclear Damper, specifically tuned to decay mesons. If you 
>can do that, you can surely do the opposite: Prevent them from Decaying, or 
>massively reduce their decay rate) in order to prevent your mesons from 
>decaying too early. Mesons are obviously generated, en-masse, by nuclear 
>damper style technology also, set up for very short range (i.e. meters, or 
>centimeters) but extremely powerful and finely controlled damper-style 
>fields. 

True, nuclear dampers do imply a lot of bizarre manipulations of decay
rates that it's very difficult to explain in a way that wouldn't prove
instantly lethal to all life.  Considering that pions are the primary
exchange particle of the strong force, nuclear dampers would be expected
to influence them.

Doesn't help much with the problem of 'mesons aren't notably penetrating
particles'.  Of course, explaining how nuclear dampers don't change the
laws of physics in ways that are instantly fatal to life is also a trick.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 02:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 01:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
Message-ID: <200204190857.BAA28058@ping.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>I was just looking at something called Electric Tokamak, and 
>I noticed that in one of the pictures, they were using 
>hydrogen plasma, and in a few others, helium plasma.  I 
>thought that this was strange, since no machine built yet 
>achieves a high beta (high enough to break even, that is).
>
>In their "introduction" section, they talk about the machine 
>being able to use "low-neutron yield fusion fuels" in the 
>future with this design.
>
>It makes me think that their intent in the end is to use 
>helium rather than hydrogen.

It probably is.  D-He3 is the easiest of the low-neutron fusion fuels
to ignite.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 03:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Apr 19 02:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>

On Friday 19 April 2002 09:45, you wrote:
> Brian Caball wrote:
> > Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the
> > barrel" problems: Nuclear Damping Technology.
>
> The only problem is, why doesn't a meson gun then function
> automatically as a perfect meson screen?  If you can prevent your
> mesons decaying over distances of up to millions of kilometres, why
> can't you ensure that the other guy's mesons don't decay within a
> range of twenty metres?

It's probably set to a long thin beam... hence the range. the manufacturers 
probably also supply the shorter range, general purpose, multidirectional 
meson screens. 

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 03:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 02:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020419190352.C3066@freeman.little-possums.net>

>  If you can prevent your mesons decaying over distances of up to
> millions of kilometres, why can't you ensure that the other guy's
> mesons don't decay within a range of twenty metres?

I just thought of an even more extreme example: meson communicators
function across *billions* of kilometres.  They should make you
completely immune to meson weapons if they can prevent decay at that
range.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 03:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 02:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net> <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020419192132.A3299@freeman.little-possums.net>

Brian Caball wrote:
> It's probably set to a long thin beam... hence the range. the
> manufacturers probably also supply the shorter range, general
> purpose, multidirectional meson screens.

But then why are meson screens so expensive and not perfectly
effective?  They don't need anywhere near as much coverage as a
multi-million kilometre beam, even if it is thin.  Covering a mere
starship should be utterly trivial by comparison.

On the other side of the issue, altering the decay properties of
mesons means that you don't actually need to fire anything at the
target: mesons are fundamental to the processes that hold nuclei
together.  Tamper with them, and every nucleus bigger than hydrogen
alters its energy to an extent that makes fusion look "slightly warm".

Just wave your "meson damper" over the target, then shut down your
sensors and get behind a sandcaster cloud before the flash reaches
you.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 05:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 04:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Various fusion machines
Message-ID: <200204191113.ENR03407@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>
>With these advances, it looks like large-scale commercial 
>fusion power is only about twenty years away!
>;^>
>

That's what they said back in the 1970s
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 05:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 04:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204191118.ENS00157@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>
>No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!
>
>"Ah, the Disco Room!"
>

I would be happy to be Invisible Boy
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 05:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 19 04:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Andy Akins Still Around?
Message-ID: <3CC003DA.D3F8EBBE@earthlink.net>

Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Akins?

I'm trying to contact him re: his T4 ship design spreadsheet
but the andyakins@earthlink.net address from his website
keeps bouncing email.

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 6:46, Daniel Tackett wrote:

>   I'm almost of the opinion that
> > officers 
> > > should be enlisted first
> Amen to that. Was it ever like that though?

Not that I know of.

 Does anybody know when it stopped if it was? And Why?

The modern system has its origins in Medieval Europe, with knights 
evolving into the aristocratic officer class, etc.

> I think it instills elitism in the wrong kind of
> people and the wrong kind of people are less likely to
> be patient enough for a couple of years as a grunt.

That's also my feeling.

> Not to say that we don't have some fine officers now,
> but they still need to know what it's like to be
> treated like a pawn in a chess game. I doubt this
> ideology would work well for pilots though.

Pilots are made into officers for reasons of tradition and there's no 
real reason for them to be, no matter what they might say on this.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <B8E429CE.4E9EA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC0B25F.15316.840B8C@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 7:44, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Just bear in mind that there is a reason for the distance between
> officers and enlisted (speaking as one who has been both).  As
> officers you will be required to give orders to your men that will
> result in their death or maiming.  You will know this before hand. 
> It requires a certain detachment (at least for non-sickos) to order
> men to their deaths. 

However also remember that a platoon sergeant (the position, not the 
rank) will also have to do this at some point, and he will always (in a 
western style army, anyway) have 'come up', and should be close to his 
men. Likewise a Section Commander/Squad Leader will be very close to 
his men (and probably was 'one of the men' only a year previous), and 
yet they have to order their squad into deadly situations all the time.
 
> I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that an officer should be
> required to be enlisted first.  It's hard to say.  I've seen both
> kinds of officers, some good and some bad.  I've seen people who came
> up through the ranks have a hard time maintaining 'distance' from
> their people. Also, the duties of the two groups are very different. 

However the split between 'admin' (NCOs) and 'command' (officers) 
starts at the squad leader - 2IC level, and they're both NCOs.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020418084245.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20020417200008.009f3500@mail.attbi.com>
Message-ID: <3CC0B2AB.3922.85344E@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 8:44, Douglas Berry wrote:

> Wow. Thank you, and hope you enjoy shooting things with glee.  Just
> remember one rule. Never spend more than half you APP in your round,
> unless you are ambushing someone. Always leave enough to react to
> the other guy's move. 

I thought the rule was "Always ensure you're outside the ambush, firing 
in."

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:25:02 2002
Subject: Officer Candidates (was Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets)
In-Reply-To: <3CBF6DB5.E1C86E36@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <3CC0B556.15473.8FA124@localhost>

On 18 Apr 2002 at 20:07, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:

> I've long felt that not only should prior service be required, but that
> promotion to E-5 be required before acceptance into any officer training
> program. This, essentially, requires that the gentle serves at least one
> term as a grunt first. I've seen some who took the OCS test in the
> middle of basic who weren't any better than the ROTC things that we
> occasionally got stuck with. OTOH, pointers were far worse...  

I don't think I'd go so far as to require getting to E-5. What makes a 
good NCO isn't always the same thing that makes a good officer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 06:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 05:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020417082945.00a04870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020419125210.3554.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I want my money (along with my spleen) back.


Chalk up another virtual Keyboard kill to Doug.  I,
like others, have learned not to drink at the
computer, at least for this list.  And, yes, I may be
a day behind, but I got yesterday's project finished
before quitting time.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 09:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419192132.A3299@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
 <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
 <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02041910580708.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419111058.040af780@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:21 AM 4/19/2002, Timothy Little wrote:
>Brian Caball wrote:
> > It's probably set to a long thin beam... hence the range.
>
>But then why are meson screens so expensive and not perfectly effective?
>On the other side of the issue, altering the decay properties of mesons 
>means that you don't actually need to fire anything at the target [...] 
>Tamper with them, and every nucleus bigger than hydrogen alters its energy 
>to an extent that makes fusion look "slightly warm".

Here's a non-canon, but possibly workable suggestion for you: what if a 
"meson gun" is basically a "laser" for the whatever-it-is that makes meson 
screens (presumably some variant of damper technology) work.  In this case, 
it's tuned to affect mesons so that the field causes a release of energy 
and radiation as atoms in the target break down.

Let's further postulate the following, for no particularly good reason than 
they make the "meson gun" work similarly to the way it is described in the 
Traveller canon:

- The weapon beam is laser-like, so that it is reasonably small and can 
affect targets at a great distance, but must be focused or tuned for 
maximum effect at a specific range.  Lower power beams are much easier to 
focus and control than high-powered ones, so that meson communicators can 
have a greater range than meson weapons.

- For whatever reason, only a tiny fraction of the atoms in the focus point 
of the beam are affected enough so that they break down. The higher the 
power of the beam, the greater the percentage of atoms that break down and 
the larger the release of energy.

- The breakdown of atoms in the beam is significantly enhanced by supplying 
radiation to "kick off" a chain reaction.  Therefore, weapons-grade meson 
guns fire some type of particle beam at the target as well.

- Meson screens interfere with the ability of the meson gun beam to cause 
atoms to break down.  This is not an "all-or-nothing" proposition; the 
screen interferes with but does not block the weapon beam, protecting the 
ship to a greater or lesser degree.

The canon Traveller explanation of how a meson gun works can then be 
thought of as a simplified explanation (similar to what you would get if 
you asked a present-day layman for an explanation of the sun's energy 
source), or a deliberate obfuscation on the part of the high-tech 
polities.  The net result is the same: the "conventional wisdom" describes 
the net effect of a meson gun beam relatively accurately, but misrepresents 
the underlying physics.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 09:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Andy Akins Still Around?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C365E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Try andy@leonidae.org.  I was in touch with him in March at that address.
Jesse
 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Smart [mailto:jurrubin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 4:48 AM
To: TML List
Subject: [TML] Andy Akins Still Around?


Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Akins?

I'm trying to contact him re: his T4 ship design spreadsheet
but the andyakins@earthlink.net address from his website
keeps bouncing email.

David Smart
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 09:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <20020418190346.B22643@4dv.net>
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
 <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net>

>Does AOL offer SMTP and (POP3 or IMAP) to its subscribers?  If so, you
>can use any mail client you wish.  I understand that Mozilla's is very
>good, for those who like GUI clients.

Not last I heard.  There was an alpha test of that using employees only a 
couple or three years ago and it wandered into a swamp and never came 
out.  Which is just as well, from AOL's point of view, since it was _only_ 
being made compliant with Micro$oft Outlook and was just another way for 
them to hand the reins of software control over to Micro$oft.  (The 
explanation for this thinking is that most of the good leadership at AOL 
have long since retired after they got rich on stock options.)

Leonard Erickson already pointed to the best answer I am aware of for 
Loren's original question.  That Web site gives both the official and the 
"unofficial" answer but they are both the same thing.  The unofficial 
answer reads to me like it was posted by an AOL tech support rep on his own 
page so that he could point customers to it instead of trying to explain it 
over the phone.

I still maintain an AOL account and my wife exclusively uses AOL when not 
at work, but neither of us have upgraded to version 7.0.  (I used to QA the 
AOL client software and have what I consider good reasons for avoiding 
upgrading.  She just hasn't got around to it yet.)  I will go ahead and 
install 7.0 and fiddle around with it once I get my own computer's 
motherboard and CPU replaced.  I'd rather not install anything new on my 
wife's puter.

With luck, I will find something more useful than that ridiculous 
workaround that is the official method.  I will post results here.

It's no wonder I got a world-class set of ulcers when I was working 
there.  :::shaking head sadly:::

--Laning
"I coulda been _somebody_.  I coulda been a _contender_." -Laning speaking 
about AOL's potential to be much better than what it's turned into.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sandcasters
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226E9@USCHM203>

>Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always had trouble with 
>the idea of a line of seperately-designed launchers being required to fire 
>"sand", so I decided to just do away with them IMTU; allowing the typical 
>missile launcher to fire several different types of munitions; with "sand" 
>being used in its usual role as a screen to counter incoming missiles or 
>energy beam fire, as well as it acting as a fairly effective antipersonnel 
>weapon (Striker, bk2).
> -Ken Murphy-

Makes sense to me. IMTU, most sandcasters on smaller ships aren't even
mounted in turrets. They are placed on or in the hull  in various locations
for full coverage, and work similar to the smoke launchers on the turrets of
tanks or chaff launchers on ships and aircraft. There is no need to aim
them, or have any fire-control system other than a manual or automated
activation system.


Brian L. Hurrel
ICS Analyst
EDS
(973) 682-5578


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [Website Review] Elv's Traveller Pages
References: <02041910580708.03729@avlendris> <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <02041910311007.03729@avlendris> <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net> <02041910580708.03729@avlendris> <5.1.0.14.2.20020419111058.040af780@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <003801c1e7bf$66b51dc0$6e00a8c0@imogen>

The Website Review
------------------

A little later than expected this time, but here is ...

    Elv's Traveller Pages (John G Wood)
    http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller

Most of this site has red text on a black background (a homage to
the LBB covers).  Although this colour scheme can get  irritating
to read it is image-lite  ...  so  pages  are  fast  loading.  In
keeping with the LBB style there are links from  the  front  page
to:

- Page 0. An Introduction To My Traveller Universe
- Page 1. Characters and Combat
- Page 2. Starships
- Page 3. Worlds and Adventures
- Supp. Forms and Charts

The "Introduction" page states  that  it  is  for  material  that
doesn't fit elsewhere.  So far there  are  only  2  pieces,  both
about  psionics.   First  is  a  "right  of  reply"  letter   ...
complaining at the pro-psionic bias  of  a  recently  transmitted
program.  Second is a psionic institute checklist:  based  on  T4
(local world attitute, presence of a psionic institute, how  many
students, campuses, etc).

The "Characters and Combat" page is empty.

The "Starships" page contains GT translations of some Hiver ships
from Alien Module 7 (Explorer, Trader, Embassy Ship, and Research
Cruiser).  There's also a link to a 400dton GTL10 Lighter, and to
a landgrab page (Prilissa/Trin's Veil).

The "Worlds and Adventures" has links to write-ups of  Ochre  and
Cymbeline (both in the Solomani Rim), a link to a formal landgrab
of Prilissa (Spinward Marches), and links to two sector write-ups
(Windhorn  and  Usingou).  The  Ochre  and  Cymbeline   write-ups
include both text and stats, and could qualify as landgrabs.  The
Prilissa write-up *is* a landgrab (albeit as yet unfinished)  ...
there is a large amount of text  and  stats,  and  some  graphics
(world map and system chart).  The sector write-ups are  "initial
development" and has  data  in  Galactic  SEC  and  Galactic  SAR
formats, a list of subsector names, and a micro-sized sector map.

The "Forms and Charts" page has a CC2 file of "IS Form 21" (world
grid), and Gal2CC (a utility that converts sector  and  subsector
maps from Galactic to CC2).  There are also 3 Word documents  for
use with T4 (PE Forms, Shipcards, and a system worksheet) bundled
into a 26K zip.

In summary: T4, GT, and  generic  resources,  wrapped  up  in  CT
style.  The sector write-ups try to be true to the DGP  dot  maps
of those sectors (good!).  And there is  generally  good  support
for Galactic.  This site also reports that it was last updated on
15-Mar-2002 (good, an active site).

Improvements:  The layout implies that  more  content  is  coming
soon ... as it stands at the moment the level  of  content  would
support folding in the main section pages into  the  front  page.
More content is always good.  With the prominance of Galactic  in
this site I would have expected a link to Jim  Vassilakos's  site
(where Galactic can be found).  I look forward to the  completion
of the landgrab  and  more  info  on  the  Windhorn  and  Usingou
sectors.



Regards PLST



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Dan's used HG2 space craft lot #3
Message-ID: <3CC0463F.35BDBF90@mail.cswnet.com>

Buy now, pay later! We have the best used ships this side of Canopus!

Destiny Star class luxury liner
These ships are usually only seen in high pop core sector worlds.
Occasionally, 1 or 2 find their way to the frontier, usually under
charter by the Imperial Navy. On very rare occasions, the ships are
chartered to assist in colonizing a planet.

Destiny Star class luxury liner
ship names include Magic Destiny, Andromeda Princess, Grandeur of the
Stars, Sovereign of the stars, the Queen Hera, etc.
RQ-Y3313G5-093307-90000-0  Mcr798505.54 standard 1.5million dt
            Y   Y Y      TL=13 Crew=13235 Security Troops=1500
            Z   Z Z      Y=250  Z=500
Jump Fuel=450,000dt Plant Fuel=45,000dt EP=45000 Agility=1
Additional fuel=5000dt Fuel scoops and purification plant aboard
Auxiliary Bridge=1 Model7Fib=10 Code3 meson screens=1
Code3 nuclear dampers=10  10dt Sandcaster batteries=500
100dt repulsor bays=500  10dt Laser batteries=500
One 3250dt large craft bay [for visiting spacecraft]
One 51400dt small craft bay, carries:
2000 TL13 20dt QB lifeboats and 100 TL13 95dt RY Shuttlecraft
Crew=13235 [officers=2590 Ratings=10645] Security Troops=1500
Standard Cargo=100,000dt Passenger Cargo=50,000dt
Ships Stores=26,280dt Passengers=50,000 [1 each per 4dt stateroom]
Non-standard items from GT Starports:
10,000dt park habitat modules=10 10,000dt plaza habitat modules=12

Could qualify using Bk6 stats if you fudge the tech level:
Destiny Star DS00468-D NI Va 600Na 

TL13 RY Shuttlecraft
RY-02033A1-030000-20000-0 Mcr37.775 standard  95dt
            2     1           TL=13 Crew=5
            2     1
Fuel=5.7 EP=2.85 Agility=1 
Bridge with 3 additional crew couches [5 total]
Cargo=25 Passenger couches=55
Crew=1pilot, 1gunner, 1medic/steward, 2 stewards.

TL13 QB Lifeboat
QB-0202211-000000-00000-0 Mcr8.8 standard 20dt
no weapons                          TL=13 Crew=1
Fuel=1 EP=.4 Agility=2 Emergency low berths=8 Cargo=4


Assiniboia class gunned cruiser
The pride of the Regina Colonial Navy
CG-K4117D3-050000-60C07-0 Mcr10726.44 10000dt
            5     2 1 3   TL=10 Crew=121
            5     2 1 3   Marines=40
Fuel=1700dt EP=700 Agility=1 Fuel scoops and Purification plant aboard.
50dt missle bays=3  2dt Sandcaster batteries=5
5dt laser batteries=2  4500dt typeC particle accelerator
Carries two 40dt pinnaces with 2 beam lasers, 1 sandcaster, plus
20 emergency low berths Mcr24.25  Pinnaces are listed in Supplement 7,
page 46. They are TL9.
Crew=121[25 officers and 96 ratings] Marines=40[2 officers, 38 troops]
1 VIP passenger possible  Cargo=543dt
A related version, the Bourbon class gunned cruiser, uses a needle
configured hull instead of a box, costs Mcr11326.244


The reconfigured series: D609 Aconit of the French Navy

This is one of those adapted wet navy designs, using Ken Picks'
"Miscellaneous Note: Adapting "Wet-navy" Ships" from "Beyond Book 2:
Expanding the Basic Classic Traveller Starship Design System", available
at the Freelance Traveller website. I kept strictly to HG2 for the
design, so I fudged a little bit on the AAA guns.

D609 Aconit
DD-81146D2-040000-42002-0  Mcr745.366  830dt
            1     11  3    TL10  Crew=26
            1     11  3     Marines=8
Fuel=381.3 Ep=49.3 Agility=4 Cargo=16.9
Crew=1pilot, 1navigator, 8 engineers, 8 gunners, 1 comm specialist,
1 computer specialist, 1 medic, 1 admin orderly. Marines=8


Plop Historical designs: The Chameleon

The Chameleon
Originally from the Star Trek animated series episode "More Trouble with
Tribbles," The Chameleon is Cyrano Jones' ship. This attempted
Travellerization uses details from FASA's Star Trek RPG, which had full
details including a small deckplan. Note: Some fudging went into this
one. Also, design uses "Deck Cargo: Using External Pods For Increasing
Cargo Capacity,"  by Ken Pick, available at Freelance Traveller.

The Chameleon
with 50 dt cargo module.
MS-1123331-000000-00000-0 Mcr94.462 150dt
no weapons                          TL=13 Crew=1
Fuel=34.5dt Ep=4.5 Agile=3 Fuel scoops only; no fuel plant
Model 3 computer. Air/raft=1 Storage=3dt
double stateroom=1 "a masters cabin with lounge"
Carries one special custom 50dt streamlined cargo module [module
cargo=40dt] Cargo module by itself costs Mcr11. 
Note that a normal customized 50dt streamlined cargo module costs
Mcr5.5.

The Chameleon
without 50dt cargo module
MS-1134431-000000-00000-0 Mcr83.462 100dt
no weapons                          TL=13 Crew=1
Fuel=34.5dt Ep=4.5 Agile=3 Fuel scoops only; no fuel plant
Model 3 computer. Air/raft=1 Storage=3dt
double stateroom=1 "a masters cabin with lounge"

Notes on the special custom 50dt streamlined cargo module.
Quoting from "Again, Troublesome Tribbles" by FASA, ?1983
Cyrano has installed "added controls, which allow the cargo module to be
jettisoned in space and exploded by remote control. The walls of the
cargo module are lined with reflective materials which will act on
sensors in a manner similar to radar "chaff", masking Cyrano's escape,
at increased speed, in an emergency."

For HG2 purposes, a declaration to jettison the cargo module must be
made in the launch phase. This has the following effects:
In the range determination phase, the player with Chameleon may open 
range by one level. If previously at short range, he may go to long
range. If at long range, he may opt to dissengage. For combat purposes,
treat the "chaff" as a single Code9 sandcaster battery, available for
one turn only. O^

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
How mesons are created: The stork brings em.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 10:49:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 09:49:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 12:08:07AM +1200
References: <3CBED432.25528.F33E8B@localhost> <20020418134631.31180.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com> <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020419104758.A24689@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 12:08:07AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> The modern system has its origins in Medieval Europe, with knights 
> evolving into the aristocratic officer class, etc.

I believe that various socialists tried the `elect officer from the
ratings, by the ratings' method.  It didn't work very well.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Try travelling from state to state in America without a driver's license
and proof of insurance, to be yielded up to the first uniformed
road-thug who demands it.                       --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CBF6B82.9FD041AE@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:

> > From: laning <laning@wizard.net>
> >
> > Heinlein is often invoked in the science fiction world as an example of
> > libertarian principles at work.  I don't know how many have read his story
> > 'Coventry', which was set inside a huge area cordoned off by the U.S. and
> > completely without laws.  Citizens of the U.S. who broke the law were
> > banished to Coventry to live among the other people who felt they didn't
> > need the law.  Contrary to the expectations of the rugged individualist who
> > starts the story about to enter Coventry, the people inside Coventry
> > evolved their own law, but one that was imposed by the biggest sharks in
> > the pool and not so kind and gentle as the law they had just left
> > behind.  This was Heinlein's story that most directly addressed the issue,
> > and with writer as judge of the conflict between different poliltical
> > systems, he clearly found in favor of the democratic one and against the
> > libertarian one.
> 
> Thank you for remembering this. I knew there was a quite well written
> refutation in his work but I had forgotten the name. 

That's NOT a refutation of libertarianism, it's a refutation of anarchy.
True anarchy doesn't exist; there will always be some sort of social
order, even if it's based in "the biggest bully wins".

Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.  

> As a fairly hard lefty (hey I am a member of the DSA.
> http://www.dsausa.org if you don't know them. Keep in mind that I keep
> that link  in my religion folder... ;') I had a difficult time
> understanding some of his works when I was a teen. The way "Coventry" is
> written makes it very clear that a democracy that passes things against
> his ideals is a better place to him than a tyrany that is exactly in
> line with his thought. It's also useful to understand that one can
> respect while disagreeing. 

Yes, but libertarianism is NOT tyranny or anarchy, and the society in
"Coventry" is NOT libertarian.  A libertarian social contract supports the
right to life (for persons who have been born), liberty, property,
privacy, and free association.

I would expect someone from a group as maligned as the DSA to be able to
understand the difference.

And it depends, doesn't it?  If a "democracy" decides to make just being
who you are illegal because their governing body is so constructed as to
think the right of the majority to decide what's legal should extend into
your bedroom, then you are in a tyranny, aren't you?  If a "democracy"
decides to attach more than half of your property suddenly due to a change
in the public opinion made manifest in law, then you are in a tyranny,
aren't you?

Kiri, lifelong RAH fan and mostly libertarian...

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019237432.7515.ajackson@ping>

Kiri Aradia Morgan writes:
> 
> That's NOT a refutation of libertarianism, it's a refutation of anarchy.

Well, a lot of the libertarians seem to be anarchists in disguise, though it's
true that they're not technically the same thing.
> 
> Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
> exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
> should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
> do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.

Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith.  Or the Libertarian
party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:10:22AM -0700
References: <3CBF6B82.9FD041AE@mailbag.com> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020419113915.A24789@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:10:22AM -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>
> A libertarian social contract supports the right to life (for
> persons who have been born), liberty, property, privacy, and free
> association.

I'd like to point out--solely to avoid misunderstanding--that there is
debate within libertarian circles regarding the personhood of those
yet unborn, and that this naturally colours perception of the rights
appertaining thereto.  Not going to mention my own thoughts, as they
have no business being here.

Otherwise I quite agree with Kiri's post.  Although I've not read the
story in question, it very much sounded not like an argument against
liberty but an argument against anarchy.  While some libertarians tend
towards minarchy, and some even towards anarchy, mainstream
libertarian thought recognises a) that government is evil b) that lack
of government is yet more evil.  Thus the question is not whether to
eliminate it (the answer to that is definitely not) but how to
constrain it so that it protects the liberty of its citizens from all
encroachment.

Anarchists care about encroachment by government; authoritarians care
about encroachment by individuals.  Libertarians care about both, and
seek to find the balance necessary to promote the most liberty for the
most individuals in the best way.

> And it depends, doesn't it?  If a "democracy" decides to make just being
> who you are illegal because their governing body is so constructed as to
> think the right of the majority to decide what's legal should extend into
> your bedroom, then you are in a tyranny, aren't you?  If a "democracy"
> decides to attach more than half of your property suddenly due to a change
> in the public opinion made manifest in law, then you are in a tyranny,
> aren't you?

That's why I've always found emphasis on democracy to be more than a
little foolish.  Certainly, it appears that democracy has the best
chance of ensuring liberty--but it is just as capable of ensuring
tyranny.  I don't care who rules or how, so long as I am free.  If a
king, an emperor or the Great Purple Poobah of Penglesh ensures my
liberties, I'll quite happily be a subject.

ObTrav: This naturally colours my view of the Imperium.  MTU is not
the one of the early LBB adventures with an Imperium out of Star Wars
and megacorps out of cyberpunk.  I latched onto statements such as the
Imperium ruling the space between stars and it having an interest in
free trade and developed a TU much rosier, I think, that many others'.
I'm afraid it doesn't overly resemble the OTU, as in mine un-feoffed
[is that a word?] worlds are much less common: almost every world is
in the posession of a noble.

But I'm an idealist:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert
that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by
themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.
                                                  --Thomas Jefferson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Akins)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Andy Akins Still Around?
In-Reply-To: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419174744.A20BC279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>

David Smart wrote:
>Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Akins?

I do :)

>I'm trying to contact him re: his T4 ship design spreadsheet
>but the andyakins@earthlink.net address from his website
>keeps bouncing email.

Yup, that address is gone. I bought my own domain (leonidae.org) and I'm 
operating from that now...

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>Try andy@leonidae.org.  I was in touch with him in March at that address.

You are correct sir!

For the record, if anyone is looking for my spreadsheets, they are now at 
www.leonidae.org/

I'm _slowly_ adding more stuff to that site, but its gonna take me a while.

	Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Akins)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>

Okay, I think this may be pretty complicated, and I wouldn't be surprised if 
the answer is "Can't be done" or "Too hard" or "Go pick up a $200 Orbital 
Dyanmics Textbook and figure it out..."

But...

...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of 
a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system from above, and the 
primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital parameters of the planet (orbital 
radius, eccentricity, orbital speed, reference point, etc) and the date.

I'd actually like to be able to do this for _the_ solar system, that is enter 
"Nov 16 1969" and be able to plot where the planets are on X,Y paper.

Now, I know that there are comercial astronomy programs (Red Shifft, etc) 
that can do this sort of thing...but I need to try and build this into a 
different program, so I gotta write the algorithm myself.

ARgh.

If anyone can lend me hand, or point me to a website, or tell me that I'm 
nuts, I'd appreciate it....

	Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 11:59:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 19 10:59:56 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1@aol.com>

--part1_74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>> Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
>> exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
>> should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
>> do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.
>
>Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith.  Or the Libertarian
>party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.

I've often found "minarchist" more useful than "libertarian." More
technically correct, and it hasn't been hijacked by anyone yet.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt;&gt; Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
<BR>&gt;&gt; exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
<BR>&gt;&gt; should not interfere in people's private lives: &nbsp;for instance, what they
<BR>&gt;&gt; do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt;Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith. &nbsp;Or the Libertarian
<BR>&gt;party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.
<BR>
<BR>I've often found "minarchist" more useful than "libertarian." More
<BR>technically correct, and it hasn't been hijacked by anyone yet.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.1b92e152.29f1b3d1_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C365F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Well, you ARE nuts, but I don't know if that's related to your current
project ;)
<ducking>

Jesse



<snip>
If anyone can lend me hand, or point me to a website, or tell me that I'm 
nuts, I'd appreciate it....

	Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:08:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:08:14 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <200204190855.BAA14300@ping.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20419.105906.7W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> True, nuclear dampers do imply a lot of bizarre manipulations of decay
> rates that it's very difficult to explain in a way that wouldn't prove
> instantly lethal to all life.  Considering that pions are the primary
> exchange particle of the strong force, nuclear dampers would be expected
> to influence them.
>
> Doesn't help much with the problem of 'mesons aren't notably penetrating
> particles'.  Of course, explaining how nuclear dampers don't change the
> laws of physics in ways that are instantly fatal to life is also a trick.

The only application of nuclear dampers I can think of where it would
*matter* that they were lethal is fixed screens around planetary
installations. 

Then again, they'd make far too good a "death ray" if they were. <sigh>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  Graphics Help
Message-ID: <20020419181048.28151.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

This is way off topic, but I was wondering if one of
the Graphic Guru's on the list would be willing to do
a little volunteer work for my son's baseball league. 
I'm beginning to work on their web site and I need to
get an emblem for them  I have some ideas, but I am
limited to MS Paint, and, well, that just don't cut
it. :)

Thanks,
Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20419.105906.7W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019240622.1051.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> The only application of nuclear dampers I can think of where it would
> *matter* that they were lethal is fixed screens around planetary
> installations. 
> 
> Then again, they'd make far too good a "death ray" if they were. <sigh>

Well, most obvious versions of nuclear dampers either have energy requirements
best measured in kilograms, or would tend to make matter explode and are well
suited to Death Star tricks.  Incidentally, even limiting ourselves to known
effects of nuclear dampers, they're well suited to producing nova-level flares
with a reasonable sized damper, focused to accelerate fusion, pointed at the
star.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
Message-ID: <20020419182536.82956.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

All the recent talk about jump drive and 100D limits
has gotten me thinking.  OK, the assumption first...

     The Jump Grid "erases" the effects of gravity/
     tidal force/whatever that would prevent a ship
     from being outside of its own 100D limit.

If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
have they discovered in regards to this test?

Might it be possible (if not practical) to exceed the
J-6 limit.  Immagine a J-6 small xboat jumping from
within the hull of a J-6 carrier.  Can we reach J-12,
J-36, or (gasp!) J-46,656 (6^6)?  This could be an
easy launch point for an "unusual" adventures.  As in
the following:


The Patron hires the players as a retrieval squad. 
Only later do they find out where the retrieval is. 
The have 3 J-6 ships.  The HUGE, the Medium, and the
small.  The Medium is designed to Jump twice and then
Slag the J-Drive.  It doesn't have anything else of
its own, simply a hull, fuel, and a J-6 drive.  The
Huge and Medium engage together with the Small in the
hull of the Medium (and the PC's in the Small).  The
Medium Jumps 46,656 parsecs into an unknown territory.
 The PC's have to retrieve the scientist who tested
the first ship and return by engaging the Medium and
Small J-6's at the same time to get home.

I know it isn't official canon (cannon?) or is it? 
Have all the research experiments from all the
research stations in the Imperium been posted to the
citizens?  Hmmm.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 12:33:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 11:33:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020419182536.82956.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019241046.5627.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> 
> If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
> HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
> during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
> entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
> stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
> have they discovered in regards to this test?

My suspicion would be 'both ships disappear'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>; from andy@leonidae.org on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:53:42PM -0500
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419130413.B24789@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:53:42PM -0500, Andy Akins wrote:
> 
> ...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of 
> a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system from above, and the 
> primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital parameters of the planet (orbital 
> radius, eccentricity, orbital speed, reference point, etc) and the date.

Well, for the simplest case assume that the planet is in a perfect
circular orbit around its star and that it started its orbit directly
`north' of that star.  Planet.period is the time it take to complete 1
rotation around the star.

orbit_degree(planet, time) = 360*time/planet.period mod 360

Then from orbit_degree it's fairly simple to determine where along the
circle the planet is.  For a very simple first approximation of a
planetary orbit, this is sufficient--for a slightly less simple an a
random deviation based on eccentricity.


It gets rather more complicated from there.

A real orbit is an ellipse, with the star being rotated around at one
of the focii (not really true, but close enough).

<http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html> should provide something
of a start.  I've gotten as far as determining the definitions of
major and minor axes in terms of eccentricity.  If one assumes that
the `average seperation' used in GT is the average of min and max
seperations, not the average distance over time, then the major axis
2a is simpy min_sep + max_sep, and the minor axis 2b =
2a*sqrt(1-ecc^2).

I don't recall which definition of average seperation GT uses.  I've a
nasty feeling that sometimes it's simply the average of min and max,
and sometimes it's an average over time.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty
clearly to protect political discourse.  But liberals reject the notion
that free speech is therefore limited to political topics, even broadly
defined.  True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself.
But why leap to the conclusion that a broadly worded constitutional
freedom (`the right of the people to keep and bear arms') is narrowly
limited by its stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away?
My New Republic colleague Mickey Kaus says that if liberals interpreted
the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest of the Bill of
Rights, there would be law professors arguing that gun ownership is
mandatory.       --Michael Kinsley Washington Post, January 8, 1990

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:10:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:10:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419145637.041a0f88@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:53 PM 4/19/2002, Andy Akins wrote:
>Okay, I think this may be pretty complicated [...] I would _really_ like a 
>formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of a planet.


I have a book (that's about 20 years old now) called _Practical Astronomy 
with Your Calculator_ that may be of use to you.  Particularly if you're 
going for gaming-accuracy approximations (rather than pointing a real 
telescope or navigating an actual spacecraft).  It appears to have been 
revised in 1990, and looks like it's still in print.  Go to Amazon.com, and 
punch in the title; it should come right up.

It's mainly aimed at the backyard astronomer, but I think there is enough 
information given to translate between the various coordinate systems, and 
provide the X,Y coordinates that you're asking for.  Also browsing through 
the astronomy section on Amazon, I saw _Fundamentals of Astrodynamics_, 
which is inexpensive and appears to be useful.

Good luck,


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

.
> 
> Pilots are made into officers for reasons of
> tradition and there's no 
> real reason for them to be, no matter what they
> might say on this.
> 
Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
or no reason for them to be grunts first?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>; from andy@leonidae.org on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:53:42PM -0500
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>

Here's some more info from the page I mentioned
<http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html>.  Assuming, once again,
that the standard orbital radius is the simple of min and max radii,
we have:

(1) min_sep + max_sep = 2a (the major axis; distance from one end of the
			   orbit to another)

(2) min_sep(planet) = planet.radius*(1-planet.ecc)

(3) max_sep(planet) = planet.radius*(1+planet.ecc)

and thus:

(4) major(planet) = 2*planet.radius

(5) semimajor(planet) = planet.radius

We also have a function returning current degree from `north':

(6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)

Given orbital_deg(), we can find distance from a focus by:

(7) radius(planet,time) = (semimajor(planet)*(1-planet.ecc^2)) /
    (1+planet.ecc*cos(orbital_deg(planet, time)))

And for an ellipse, where theta = orbital_deg(planet,time), r =
radius(planet, time) and c = semimajor(planet)*planet.ecc:

(8) x = c + r cos theta
(9) y = r sin theta

Which in our case reduces to:

(8a) x(planet, time) = semimajor(planet)*planet.ecc +
		       semimajor(planet)*(1-planet.ecc^2)

(9a) y(planet, time) = radius(planet, time) * orbital_deg(planet, time)

None of this has been tested outed, and I could very well be
wrong--I'm no physicist, and while I was a Math/CS major the emphasis
was on CS.  And I'm rusty.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A properly balanced sword is the most versatile weapon for close
quarters ever devised: a sword never jams, never has to be reloaded;
it is always ready.                               --Robert Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>

Paul Walker writes:
> 
> If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
> HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
> during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
> entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
> stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
> have they discovered in regards to this test?

I wouldn't recommend engaging a jump drive while sitting in the hold of a
ship already in jump-space. As far as the results of such an event, I would
assume a 99.9% chance of a catastrophic catastrophy.
Perhaps there'd be a One in a Trillion chance that the ship would end up
300,000 LY away in the Andromeda Galaxy (or at the exit 13A Toll Plaza on
the NJ Turnpike for that matter).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:41:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:41:30 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8E5C044.577B2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/19/02 12:32 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> or no reason for them to be grunts first?
> 

The Air Force doesn't have 'grunts'.  Didn't you know that?  They have
technicians (Excepting Para Rescue and a few other oddballs who'd probably
be happier in the Army or Marines. :)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:44:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:44:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1019245236.0.55880100@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Mr. Whipsnade posted:
>
<snip>
> As you all well know, I'm not the sharpest tool
> in the shed
<snip>

EXCUSE ME? After your "Colossus" posts detailing your alternate ending to the MT Rebellion, I'll be happy to debate your statement with you or anyone else.

That was a masterful piece of work, sir, and one that has become a permanent part of my MT campaigns. I haven't seen much of your other work but quality, not quantity, is the mark of excellence (as Imperium Games found out the hard way).

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020419113915.A24789@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191235301.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:10:22AM -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> >
> > A libertarian social contract supports the right to life (for
> > persons who have been born), liberty, property, privacy, and free
> > association.
> 
> I'd like to point out--solely to avoid misunderstanding--that there is
> debate within libertarian circles regarding the personhood of those
> yet unborn, and that this naturally colours perception of the rights
> appertaining thereto.  Not going to mention my own thoughts, as they
> have no business being here.

There is always going to be debate, but I'm talking about what nearly all
libertarians can agree on, which is that people who have been born have
the right to continue living, unless of course they are killed by someone 
who is defending themselves against their attack.
 
> Otherwise I quite agree with Kiri's post.  Although I've not read the
> story in question, it very much sounded not like an argument against
> liberty but an argument against anarchy. 

Exactly so.  But then, we usually agree about political matters, and we
both regard matters of religion as private.  :)

> While some libertarians tend towards minarchy, and some even towards
> anarchy, mainstream libertarian thought recognises a) that government
> is evil b) that lack of government is yet more evil.  Thus the
> question is not whether to eliminate it (the answer to that is
> definitely not) but how to constrain it so that it protects the
> liberty of its citizens from all encroachment.

Exactly.
 
> Anarchists care about encroachment by government; authoritarians care
> about encroachment by individuals.  Libertarians care about both, and
> seek to find the balance necessary to promote the most liberty for the
> most individuals in the best way.

That is the best explanation I've heard yet.  Might steal it for the quote
file if you don't mind.

> > And it depends, doesn't it?  If a "democracy" decides to make just being
> > who you are illegal because their governing body is so constructed as to
> > think the right of the majority to decide what's legal should extend into
> > your bedroom, then you are in a tyranny, aren't you?  If a "democracy"
> > decides to attach more than half of your property suddenly due to a change
> > in the public opinion made manifest in law, then you are in a tyranny,
> > aren't you?
> 
> That's why I've always found emphasis on democracy to be more than a
> little foolish.  Certainly, it appears that democracy has the best
> chance of ensuring liberty--but it is just as capable of ensuring
> tyranny.  I don't care who rules or how, so long as I am free.  If a
> king, an emperor or the Great Purple Poobah of Penglesh ensures my
> liberties, I'll quite happily be a subject.

I can certainly understand that, but whatever the government is, it should
have checks and balances.  The problem with monarchy is that it's usually
hereditary and there's no guarantee that a monarch who ensures our liberty
will be succeeded by another one just like him/her.

> ObTrav: This naturally colours my view of the Imperium.  MTU is not
> the one of the early LBB adventures with an Imperium out of Star Wars
> and megacorps out of cyberpunk.  I latched onto statements such as the
> Imperium ruling the space between stars and it having an interest in
> free trade and developed a TU much rosier, I think, that many others'.
> I'm afraid it doesn't overly resemble the OTU, as in mine un-feoffed
> [is that a word?] worlds are much less common: almost every world is
> in the posession of a noble.
> 
> But I'm an idealist:-)

Indeed.  I'm more of a cold, hard realist; my libertarianism springs from
the knowledge that if you give 200 million people a voice in your private
life, or what you can own, or what you can do with what you own, they'll
often take it... and feel justified in so doing, if you allow yourself to 
become dependent upon their largesse, enforced or not.... :)

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:51:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:51:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019245364.3010.ajackson@ping>

Robert A. Uhl writes:
> Here's some more info from the page I mentioned
> <http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Ellipse.html>.  Assuming, once again,
> that the standard orbital radius is the simple of min and max radii,

It's usually the semi-major axis, which is, yes, the average of min and max.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:56:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:56:13 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net>
Message-ID: <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

laning wrote:
> 
>> Does AOL offer SMTP and (POP3 or IMAP) to its subscribers?  If so, you
>> can use any mail client you wish.  I understand that Mozilla's is very
>> good, for those who like GUI clients.
> 
> 
> Not last I heard.  There was an alpha test of that using employees only 
> a couple or three years ago and it wandered into a swamp and never came 
> out.  

Au contraire, mon frere....I am happily using Mozilla 0.9.9 right now, 
with the magic 1.0 release coming in about a month. It will be a rather 
well-behaved 1.0 release as well.

http://www.mozilla.org

Mozilla has been my main browser/mail application for over a year now, 
and I am quite pleased with it.

You might have seen it as Netscape 6.2...(same program with a Netscape 
theme) Netscape 6.0 was the MOzilla 0.7 or 0.8 release, was slow and had 
many bugs, but the current version is quite nice, and a good performer, imo.



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 13:58:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 12:58:44 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019237432.7515.ajackson@ping>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191000040.18695-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419154608.00b8a5f0@urbin.net>

At 10:30 AM 4/19/02 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Kiri Aradia Morgan writes:
> > That's NOT a refutation of libertarianism, it's a refutation of anarchy.
>Well, a lot of the libertarians seem to be anarchists in disguise, though it's
>true that they're not technically the same thing.

Well, perhaps when viewed from a leftist lens.
Libertarians do not believe in a "Nanny State" that is the dream/goal of 
many dempublicans.
The Libertarianism is not anarchy. It is, as Kiri pointed out, a clearly 
defined social contract between the citizens of the state and the 
government they selected to run it.

> > Libertarianism is based in the idea that government is necessary, for
> > exactly this reason-- but that the social contract should be explicit and
> > should not interfere in people's private lives:  for instance, what they
> > do in their bedrooms, or with their own property.
>Not the impression I get from people like L Neil Smith.  Or the Libertarian
>party, for that matter; what you're describing is closer to the ACLU.

Hmm...I just stopped by <http://www.lp.org/> and read some position papers.
I agree with Kiri.  She just happened to pick and example of a single 
position that the ACLU happens to agree with the LP platform.

In fact, the LP web site lists the ACLU (along with a link) as an 
organization that also supports privacy rights.
I wonder if you can find a link to the Libertarian Party site anywhere on 
the ACLU site...


ObTrav: Nope...not going there...I vote this thread goes to the tml-chat list.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:02:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:02:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <DAV14zx4iXK3M38gh6y00018aa9@hotmail.com>

------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C1E7BA.B573E810
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Don't forge the influence of Rand on Libertarianism.
And of course, don't forget that the current Libertarian party leadership=
 fully believes in guilt by association. Consider the habits of Rand and =
the later writings of Heinlein and then consider what they say about Libe=
rtarians.

Of course, I like Norman Spinrad and his take on electronic democracy. :-=
P


Sam

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<HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Don't forge th=
e influence of Rand on Libertarianism.</DIV> <DIV>And of course, don't fo=
rget that the current Libertarian party leadership fully believes in guil=
t by association. Consider the habits of Rand and the later writings of H=
einlein and then consider what they say about Libertarians.</DIV> <DIV>&n=
bsp;</DIV> <DIV>Of course, I like Norman Spinrad and his take on electron=
ic democracy. :-P</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Sam</DIV=
></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C1E7BA.B573E810--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:10:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:10:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419154608.00b8a5f0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019246981.7419.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:

> In fact, the LP web site lists the ACLU (along with a link) as an 
> organization that also supports privacy rights.
> I wonder if you can find a link to the Libertarian Party site anywhere on 
> the ACLU site...

Well, I can't find _any_ links to other organizations on the ACLU site, so no. 
You can find some court cases where the ACLU and the libertarian party were
co-defendants, however.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191235301.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>; from tiamat@tsoft.com on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:41:40PM -0700
References: <20020419113915.A24789@4dv.net> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191235301.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020419141527.A25183@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:41:40PM -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> There is always going to be debate, but I'm talking about what nearly all
> libertarians can agree on, which is that people who have been born have
> the right to continue living, unless of course they are killed by someone 
> who is defending themselves against their attack.

I'd phrase it as `libertarians believe that people have the right to
go on living, unless they do something to negate that right.'  By
leaving unsaid what a person is, and what can be done to negate that
right, we've a definition that just about anyone can, I think agree
to.  And then argue to their heart's content about the undefined
terms.  On another list...

> > Anarchists care about encroachment by government; authoritarians care
> > about encroachment by individuals.  Libertarians care about both, and
> > seek to find the balance necessary to promote the most liberty for the
> > most individuals in the best way.
> 
> That is the best explanation I've heard yet.  Might steal it for the quote
> file if you don't mind.

I don't believe in restricting non-deceptive quoting:-)

> I can certainly understand that, but whatever the government is, it should
> have checks and balances.  The problem with monarchy is that it's usually
> hereditary and there's no guarantee that a monarch who ensures our liberty
> will be succeeded by another one just like him/her.

Yep--that's why I said that democracy seems to be the best.  I wonder,
though, how a combined system would work.  A king, an aristocratic
house, a common house a democratic plebiscites.  Balance them all
against one another and with any luck once they'd gotten around to:
forbidding murder, rape, theft and fraud; establishing property and
privacy law; and funding the military, they'd just settle down into
fruitless doing nothing.

> Indeed.  I'm more of a cold, hard realist; my libertarianism springs from
> the knowledge that if you give 200 million people a voice in your private
> life, or what you can own, or what you can do with what you own, they'll
> often take it... and feel justified in so doing, if you allow yourself to 
> become dependent upon their largesse, enforced or not.... :)

That's why I like the idea of a government of men, not laws.  It's
dashed difficult to kill a law, but very easy to kill a man.  Being a
man, he knows this, and acts circumspectly.

See, there's one Emperor.  And a septillion sophonts out there.  He'd
better be doing his best not to alienate too many of them at any one
time.

This would, of course, lead to priority being given to worlds near
Capital, as they are the ones for which it is simplest to retaliate.
But to balance that fact IMTU there's a fairly active Moot, which
being made of equal representatives from across the Imperium tends to
level that voice out (much as in the US Colo. has nearly the same
voice in federal affairs that Va. has).  There's a balance between the
Emperor and the Moot such that for both the man and the entity the
best path is the way of least action.

Which in a government is a desirable thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To murder a man is much odious, to kill a woman is in manner unnatural,
but to slay and destroy innocent babes and young infants, the whole
world abhorreth, and their blood from the earth crieth for vengeance to
almighty God.                                    --Edward Hall, c. 1480

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV14zx4iXK3M38gh6y00018aa9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E5C9B9.577DC%listmom@travellercentral.com>

on 4/19/02 12:56 PM, Samuel Weiss at samwise1@msn.com wrote:
  
>Sam

Sam,

Please don't use styled text on the list.

Thanks

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019246981.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8E5CAD9.577E6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/19/02 1:09 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> 
> Well, I can't find _any_ links to other organizations on the ACLU site, so no.
> You can find some court cases where the ACLU and the libertarian party were
> co-defendants, however.

That doesn't say much. I seem to recall the ACLU and NRA being co-plaintiffs
recently.  

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020419202918.31056.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
> Paul Walker writes:
> > 
> > If this is the case, what would happen if there
> were a
> > HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump
> (or
> > during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
> > entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
> > stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
> > have they discovered in regards to this test?
> 
> I wouldn't recommend engaging a jump drive while
> sitting in the hold of a
> ship already in jump-space. As far as the results of
> such an event, I would
> assume a 99.9% chance of a catastrophic catastrophy.
> Perhaps there'd be a One in a Trillion chance that
> the ship would end up
> 300,000 LY away in the Andromeda Galaxy (or at the
> exit 13A Toll Plaza on
> the NJ Turnpike for that matter).

But why?  This is the second reply I got that said it
would be a bad thing and would probably destroy all
ships involved.  Is there any support for this?  I'm
not opposed to non OTU, but my original question was
whether there was anything in the official rules
and/or history to support or prevent such occurances?

Thanks,
Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 14:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Fri Apr 19 13:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>

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Sorry to take up space with this.

Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in stand=
ard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I have wrong=
?


Sam

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<HTML><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff" STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"=
><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Sorry to take up space with this.</DIV> <DIV>&nbs=
p;</DIV> <DIV>Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was=
 sent in standard format. I use arial as my font.<FONT color=3D#000000>&n=
bsp;What other setting&nbsp;might I have wrong?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;<=
/DIV> <DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] the handwaving is getting closer to real life
Message-ID: <200204192111.EOL06094@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Yet another variant on "quantum" something.

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2861822,
00.html
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:25:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:25:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191423490.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Samuel Weiss wrote:

> 
> Sorry to take up space with this.
> 
> Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in
> standard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I
> have wrong?

The fact that you HAVE a "font" setting means that you are using styled
text-- your mail client may be calling it "rich text" or HTML instead,
though.

Please turn it off.

Thanks,
Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020419172919.00b89740@urbin.net>

Plain ASCII would be best.

At 04:37 PM 4/19/02 -0400, Samuel Weiss wrote:
>
>Sorry to take up space with this.
>
>Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in 
>standard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I have wrong?
>
>
>Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019240622.1051.ajackson@ping>
References: <20419.105906.7W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <ML-2.3.1019240622.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020420073353.A4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> they're well suited to producing nova-level flares with a reasonable
> sized damper, focused to accelerate fusion, pointed at the star.

I've always thought of them as affecting only isotopes that were
already unstable, essentially just modifying the probability that they
decay right there and then.  They can accelerate decay of radiocative
materials, or prevent it.  They can suppress a fission chain reaction
by preventing the decay of nuclei that have one too many neutrons, or
accelerate it by increasing the rate at which the fuel nuclei decay
initially.

IMTU, their effect on pure fusion is almost negligible.  If you could
project the field into the core of a star, you might be able to stop
some of the side-reactions based on decay of unstable isotopes, but
this would not have an immediate effect.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:39:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:39:13 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <B8E5CAD9.577E6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204191434420.7717-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/19/02 1:09 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Well, I can't find _any_ links to other organizations on the ACLU site, so no.
> > You can find some court cases where the ACLU and the libertarian party were
> > co-defendants, however.
> 
> That doesn't say much. I seem to recall the ACLU and NRA being co-plaintiffs
> recently.  

Well, that really ought to happen more often, given the fact that the ACLU
is supposed to be engaged in protecting the Bill of Rights.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:42:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:42:09 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net> <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020420074153.B4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Au contraire, mon frere....I am happily using Mozilla 0.9.9 right now, 
> with the magic 1.0 release coming in about a month. It will be a rather 
> well-behaved 1.0 release as well.

I think laning was referring to POP & IMAP test having wandered into a
swamp, not to Mozilla.  (Did mozilla even have functional mail a year
or three ago?)


> You might have seen it as Netscape 6.2...(same program with a
> Netscape theme) Netscape 6.0 was the MOzilla 0.7 or 0.8 release, was
> slow and had many bugs, but the current version is quite nice, and a
> good performer, imo.

Yes, I use Mozilla 0.9.9 as my everyday web browser.  I use mutt as my
email client.  Not because Mozilla's is bad, just because Mutt is
*good* and I often like to use it from work over a 56k connection :)
(In the words of the author -- "All mail clients suck.  This one just
sucks less.")


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 15:49:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 14:49:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020419202918.31056.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419164150.01eb9740@mail.qrc.com>

At 04:29 PM 4/19/2002, Paul Walker wrote:
>[Is] there was anything in the official rules and/or history to support or 
>prevent such occurances?

The specific situation - attempting to activate a jump drive while already 
in jump space - is (to the best of my knowledge) undefined in all versions 
of the Traveller rules.  Thus, in your Traveller universe you can have any 
sort of outcome you would like.  However, I believe Marc Miller is on 
record as saying on numerous occasions that any sort of controlled jump 
longer than 6 parsecs is flatly impossible in Traveller.

In every other case that is covered by the rules, attempting to do 
something unusual with a jump drive causes one of three results: either 
nothing happens, the ship misjumps, or is catastrophically destroyed.  Any 
of these would be appropriate, and destruction sounds most likely to me as 
well.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A little (aol) help
In-Reply-To: <20020420074153.B4777@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 07:41:53AM +1000
References: <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <143.d23f4aa.29f0b124@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020419113140.00a61da0@pop.wizard.net> <3CC075FC.7060100@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020420074153.B4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020419155915.A25440@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 07:41:53AM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Yes, I use Mozilla 0.9.9 as my everyday web browser.  I use mutt as
> my email client.

Ditto on both counts here.  Mozilla is simply the best browser out
there (tabbed browsing has changed my web browsing habits for good).
Mutt is an excellent little MUA.

I have been considering using gnus or RMAIL to read mail, though.
Both are within emacs, and with a little bit of work on a few things
I'd never need to leave the great Editor-that-Is.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give
orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem,
pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently,
die gallantly.  Specialization is for insects.
                            --Robert Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420073353.A4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019253756.6212.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> I've always thought of them as affecting only isotopes that were
> already unstable, essentially just modifying the probability that they
> decay right there and then.

So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier around a
nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many nuclei, since the range
of the strong force is important), or you're altering the probability of
quantum tunneling (which I suspect would have dire effects on chemistry).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEHMDPAA.andy@exeus.com>

Hi

You need to solve Kepler's Equations to get the "mean anomaly" and from that
determine the orbital coordinates.

It's not simple, the equation is something like E = msinE, so the answer is
also part of the equation, and the only real method of solution is to
iteration.

To get that far, you need to have five, maybe six values to define an
orbital path - argument of perihelion, longitude of ascending node,
inclination to ecliptic plane, semimajor axis, orbital eccentricity - and
the point in time (the "epoch") for which all of these apply. You will need
to be aware of time here, as astronomers use standard timescales to
eliminate issues associated with timezones etc, and also the difference
between the solar day and the sidereal (i.e. stellar day) of 3mins 56secs.

On top of that, orbits are perturbed by other planets and objects, and you
need to account for atmospheric effects (refraction) and lightspeed lag
(aberration) if you intend to draw a night sky view. If you want to do it
over a very long period, then you need to account for precession of orbital
nodes/elements as well.

However, I've written a Java Orrery for my RuneQuest campaign world that
accounts for all of the above, and can predict eclipses, various planetary
alignments, zodiacal houses and a few bits besides. With a bit of work it
could handle any solar system you like to imagine.

Mail me off list and I'll see what I can do.

Regards

Andy Brick

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 17/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
> .
> > 
> > Pilots are made into officers for reasons of
> > tradition and there's no 
> > real reason for them to be, no matter what they
> > might say on this.
> > 
> Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> or no reason for them to be grunts first?
> 
  >>
  Pilots are officers because the military does not
want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
why........

     MACessna
  >>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 16:43:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Apr 19 15:43:27 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20418.123734.3m7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <02041910311007.03729@avlendris>
 <20020419184510.B3066@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8e64cae2f75@[143.232.119.186]>

At 6:45 PM +1000 4/19/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>Brian Caball wrote:
>>  Ok, i've solved all "Generating Mesons" and "Mesons decaying in the barrel"
>>  problems: Nuclear Damping Technology.
>
>The only problem is, why doesn't a meson gun then function
>automatically as a perfect meson screen?  If you can prevent your
>mesons decaying over distances of up to millions of kilometres, why
>can't you ensure that the other guy's mesons don't decay within a
>range of twenty metres?

This is close to the explination I've always used.  Meson guns 
contrive to produce mesons with a known lifetime though the use of 
technology related to what they use for nuclear dampers.

Why doesn't that make them also meson screens?  One answers is the 
limitations in word "related".  It can be related without having the 
same configuration you need for screen.  The second is that if the 
effect acts inside the weapon, then it would only act as a screen for 
mesons shot into the weapon.

If you want a full fledged screen, you have to set it up that way....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 17:43:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 19 16:43:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Message from John G. Wood -- [OT] New Gamer :)
Message-ID: <74.1b98a336.29f20575@aol.com>

Here's a message John has asked me to forward to the TML:


 >Folks,
 >
 >Some of you may remember me - I was a member of the list up until about
 >a  year ago, although never a prolific poster. Since many of you have 
 >expressed personal interest in the past, I've asked Michael to post
 >this  for me.
 >
 >Our son Isaac was born in the early hours of Friday 12th April,
 >weighing  in at 8lb 4oz (3.75kg) - everything went well, mother and
 >baby were home  by 7:30 *AM*, and we're settling into a new routine of
 >sorts. His big  sister May (two years old on the 17th) is fascinated by
 >him. I've put some  pictures up on the website at
 >http://www.elvwood.org/Family/BabyIsaac.html 
 >- larger versions are linked from the thumbnails.
 >
 >For those who care, my Traveller gaming has actually increased slightly
 > since I left the list. I got to meet (and play GURPS Traveller with) a
 >TML  member at GenCon UK [waves to Megan], then played two games of
 >classic at  Dragonmeet - where I also got to sign copies of _101
 >Corporations_, which  was a laugh.
 >
 >Take care all,
 >
 >John <john@elvwood.org> http://www.elvwood.org/Traveller/
 >
 >P.S. I recently updated the website; the Traveller section hasn't
 >changed  much but the GURPS section has expanded quite a bit.
 >
 >P.P.S. I also moved hosts. Using the Elvwood domain in links (rather
 >than  the actual site it points to) is best since I own it, so it won't
 >change.
 >

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020420102803.C4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Akins wrote:
> ...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y
> coordinates of a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system
> from above, and the primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital
> parameters of the planet (orbital radius, eccentricity, orbital
> speed, reference point, etc) and the date.

Go pick up a $200 orbital dynamics textbook and figure it out.  :)


That said, if you're willing to ignore interactions between planets,
you can get a reasonable approximation with simple trig functions.  It
won't give you enough accuracy to point a telescope at them, but it
will suffice for a 2D graphical display of a system.

Start with the semi-major axis 'a' (the average of closest and most
distant approach to the star), and the eccentricity 'e'.  You can work
out the period from this, using

 T = 2 pi / sqrt(G M / a^3),

where M is the mass of the star and G is the gravitational constant.
(Oddly enough, it does not depend upon the eccentricity).

The distance 'r' from the star at a given angle 'theta' from
perihelion is given by

  r = a (1 - e^2) / (1 + e cos theta)

So this gives you the shape of the orbit.  The position variation with
time is rather messier.  I couldn't find a formula anywhere, so I
built one myself:

Let 't' be the number of orbits (or fractional orbits).  Then

  theta = 2 arctan ((1+e) tan(pi t) / sqrt(1-e^2)).  (I hope)

So for any given time, you can work out theta and hence r.


The overview: use heliocentric coordinates, i.e. with the sun at 0,0.
Find the semimajor axis 'a' and eccentricity 'a' for the planet, and
some time 'T0' when it passed through perihelion.  Also find the
angular position of that perihelion 'theta0' (relative to your X
axis).  Calculate T.

Now for any given time T1, t = (T1 - T0) / T.  Work out theta based on
t, and r based on theta.  Let theta1 = theta + theta0.

Now, X = r cos theta1, Y = r sin theta1, and you're done!

Of course, I may have made all sorts of blunders in my calculations
here, I haven't had breakfast yet!  This algorithm is offered without
warranty, including the implied warranties of merchantability ... etc.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020420103427.D4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> We also have a function returning current degree from `north':
> 
> (6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)

This is a problematic formula.  The angle swept out by a planet in
orbit is not linear in time (which I'm guessing is what you meant).
It varies in a more complicated manner.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019253756.6212.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020420073353.A4777@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1019253756.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier
> around a nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many
> nuclei, since the range of the strong force is important), or you're
> altering the probability of quantum tunneling (which I suspect would
> have dire effects on chemistry).

The latter, but only for nucleons.  This should have virtually no
effect on chemistry, which depends exclusively on electron
wavefunctions.  It would have a an effect on fusion in cases where the
fusing plasma is only marginally hot enough.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEHMDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEHMDPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20020420104411.F4777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andy Brick wrote:
> To get that far, you need to have five, maybe six values to define
> an orbital path - argument of perihelion, longitude of ascending
> node, inclination to ecliptic plane, semimajor axis, orbital
> eccentricity - and the point in time (the "epoch") for which all of
> these apply.

You don't need the longitude of the ascending node or the inclination
to ecliptic plane if you're just interested in a 2D planar system.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 18:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 17:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019263660.4086.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier
> > around a nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many
> > nuclei, since the range of the strong force is important), or you're
> > altering the probability of quantum tunneling (which I suspect would
> > have dire effects on chemistry).
> 
> The latter, but only for nucleons.

Aha, so we have magically targeted changes in the rules of quantum mechanics.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 19:08:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 18:08:15 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEHCGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Gee,

And to think I thought you just took a bunch on Quarks, 
stirred in just enough gluons and VOILA!!!!

Seriously once you get into that energy domain, chemistry
is the last thing you are worried about.


JML
"Now kids, make sure that your triggering charge fuses the Hydrogen 
Nuclei all at once."

A scene from the last episode of 'Fun with Chemistry'.


Subject: Re: [TML] How Mesons a

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> So, either we're adjusting the thickness of the potential barrier
> around a nucleus (thus altering the total binding energy of many
> nuclei, since the range of the strong force is important), or you're
> altering the probability of quantum tunneling (which I suspect would
> have dire effects on chemistry).

The latter, but only for nucleons.  This should have virtually no
effect on chemistry, which depends exclusively on electron
wavefunctions.  It would have a an effect on fusion in cases where the
fusing plasma is only marginally hot enough.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 19:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 18:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020420103427.D4777@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:34:27AM +1000
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419133333.C24789@4dv.net> <20020420103427.D4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020419191148.A25850@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:34:27AM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > We also have a function returning current degree from `north':
> > 
> > (6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)
> 
> This is a problematic formula.  The angle swept out by a planet in
> orbit is not linear in time (which I'm guessing is what you meant).
> It varies in a more complicated manner.

Well, it _was_ an off-the-cuff first approximation.  I understand that
it actually accelerates towards the star, zips around it, then slows
down as it flies away.  Which is something the opposite of what my
formula would do--it'd appear to move more quickly at the far end as
at the near bit.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I remember when everybody posted to Usenet with their real, deliverable
e-mail address.  Of all the sins committed by the spammers, destroying
the viability of the open Internet was the worst.
                      --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 19:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Fri Apr 19 18:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS TML SKILLS
References: <20020417145227.5577E279F2@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <19435.1019129225@www58.gmx.net>

Michael Hughes wrote:
> I love Megatraveller, but like all RPGers I changed it to taste. So for my
> system, which has a combo of MT & T4 skills, plus some of my own, any
> skill
> that is related gives a Synergy bonus. For example, I consider Computers
> and
> Robotics linked skills. If you have a Skill level of 2-3 you can add a DM
> of
> 1 to a linked skill, and if Skill level 4+ add 2. If you have more than
> one
> linked skill then you only add the highest bonus. 

Nice idea - I could propably implement something like that into starship
combat, where IMHO the human aspect is overruled by computers... 'synergyzing'
skills and computers would be more to my taste.

> I have found it works very well. I am more than happy to email to you if
> you're interested, along with the reworked task & generation rules. 

That would be superb :-)  I'm allways looking for new input, especially
regarding something that's been around as long as MT.
So feel free to use my upper adress...

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419191148.A25850@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEHFGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Off the top of my head.

As you know in a given amount of time a 
planet will sweep a constant area.  Assuming 
a reasonably non eccentric orbit this could 
be approximated as an rissoles triangle with 
each long arm being the orbital radius.  The 
planet would cover a distance of roughly 
the magic area divided by the orbital radius.  
At the beginning of the next time period the 
planet's radius is (old radius + ( eccentricity
* (Magic time/orbital period) * [ 1 if 
receding from the Sun, -1 if approaching the Sun]).  
You have all three sides so use the law of cosines
to extract the angle swept, accumulate it from your 
starting angle to find the new angle.  Repeat this 
until you get to the time you want.

You only have  to calculate to half an orbit. 
If you supply the area, the starting angle, and 
the starting radius in addition to the normal 
information and you only need generate its radius 
and angle when a ship is jumping.

Unfortunately I can't see off the top of my head 
a quick way to extract the correct orbital radius 
and angle at any arbitrary time without recursion 
and a number of calculations


Yes, I realize that this will break down close to 
the primary and with eccentric orbits.

jml

Given what I recall doing in high school shop class,
I'm not all that certain that letting secondary students learn 
recombinant DNA techniques is all that good an idea.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:34:27AM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > We also have a function returning current degree from `north':
> > 
> > (6) orbital_deg(planet, time) = 360 * planet.period/time (mod 360)
> 
> This is a problematic formula.  The angle swept out by a planet in
> orbit is not linear in time (which I'm guessing is what you meant).
> It varies in a more complicated manner.

Well, it _was_ an off-the-cuff first approximation.  I understand that
it actually accelerates towards the star, zips around it, then slows
down as it flies away.  Which is something the opposite of what my
formula would do--it'd appear to move more quickly at the far end as
at the near bit.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I remember when everybody posted to Usenet with their real, deliverable
e-mail address.  Of all the sins committed by the spammers, destroying
the viability of the open Internet was the worst.
                      --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>

At 03:35 PM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Pilots are officers because the military does not
>want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
>flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
>though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
>the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
>arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
>that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
>wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
>why........

That being said, during WWII the Germans used enlisted pilots, as did the 
RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying sergeants, since they thought 
there was no reason to tie up perfectly good officers in what was 
essentially a technical skill.  That died as carriers came to the fore, and 
more Marines came to be stationed on ships. Many of the old Flying 
Sergeants received reserve commissions as officers, while retaining their 
permanent rank as enlisted men.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019263660.4086.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020420104056.E4777@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1019263660.4086.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020420121558.A5360@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Aha, so we have magically targeted changes in the rules of quantum
> mechanics.

Yes, that's the one :)

It goes well with the magical reactionless thrusters (or magical
HEPlaR), magical jump drive, magical meson beams, magical gravity
suppression, magical artifical gravity, and magical computer viruses.
After that, you've got the *real* magic of the Ancients' stuff...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419192446.021e1ec0@mail.verizon.net>

Hi Larsen,

Try searching for the term   "table of organization and 
equipment"   (include the surrounding quotes). I had a lot of hits when 
taking that approach.  Sorry for putting this on the web, but I can't 
contact you offlist without an email address.  :-)

Best regards and happy surfing!

Charles


At 01:45 AM 4/19/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
>     Could some kind soul please contact me off-List with some links to 
> sites that list various combat formation TO&Es?  I've tried Google until 
> my eyes crossed with no avail.  As you all well know, I'm not the 
> sharpest tool in the shed and my surfing abilities suffer as a consequence.
>     The recent TML thread discussing unit TO&Es and the well deserved 
> praise for Mr. Berry's accomplishments regarding them in GT:GF gave me 
> cause to flush all the unit descriptions in my "Dirty Little War" project.
>     Specifically, I'm interested in TO&Es from the turn of the last 
> century, say the 1905/Russo-Japanese War to 1918/Great War range.  This 
> implies large squad automatic weapons, clunky AFVs, and early combat aircraft.
>     Thank you.
>
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Larsen
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
>http://www.hotmail.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEHIGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

So did the Japanese fleet arm, so did the Soviets during the
early part of the war.

I think putting officers in charge of planes is mainly the cool
factor.  The person actually steering any navy ship is an EM
I believe, rather low of the totem pole too.  Larsen can correct
me if I'm wrong

OB TrAV
If you think about there is little difference between a Grav Tank and a
fighter at high enough TL's.  Does anyone seriously think it's just
officers driving all those grav tanks.

jml
______________________
Military -- Bangs for the Buck
Hunters  -- Bucks for the Bang
______________________
:
:
:

That being said, during WWII the Germans used enlisted pilots, as did the
RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying sergeants, since they thought
there was no reason to tie up perfectly good officers in what was
essentially a technical skill.  That died as carriers came to the fore, and
more Marines came to be stationed on ships. Many of the old Flying
Sergeants received reserve commissions as officers, while retaining their
permanent rank as enlisted men.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:36:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:36:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
References: <20020420004404.79A6F279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008201c1e814$658fd700$265d8690@computer>

> From: Michael Cessna
>   Pilots are officers because the military does not
> want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....

No.  The 'pilots are officers' thing dates all the way back to the
beginnings of military aviation.

The logic, presumably, was that a pilot was a gentleman and an educated
professional, of a higher social class to the mere tradesmen and mechanics
that worked on the ground.

There have been exceptions - "Flight Sergeants" occasionally served as
pilots in WWII.

Winston Churchill's comments on Naval Tradition apply to the traditions of
other services too, to a considerable extent.  Don't try to find present day
logic in them.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!

He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.

What I want to know is:
a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
Science?
b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?
c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:40:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:40:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <008301c1e814$662e8800$265d8690@computer>

> From: "Andy Brick"
> Do you really still generate worlds with just the basic rules ? Or do you
> use the World Builder's Handbook, or Book 6, or First In ?

Actually, I do just use the basic rules.  I also often hand tweak them, but
it's data from Book 3 that I am tweaking.

I also am in the process of developing my own world gen system.  It's
basically a simplified version of Book 3 that gives a narrower set of
results.  Of course, this is for a game that treats systems as essentially
synonymous with their major starports and startowns, plus a bit of tactical
space out to the 100D limit.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
References: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419223354.02274a00@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:01 PM 4/19/2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
>That being said, during WWII the Germans used enlisted pilots, as did the 
>RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying sergeants [...]

As did the U.S. Army Air Forces.  Among many others, there was a young 
mechanic named Chuck Yeager who volunteered for the USAAF version, and were 
also eventually commissioned (that Yeager fellow went on to break the 
"sound barrier" and eventually a Generals' star).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEHJGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Now that would be one Heck of a major
Imagine selling it to your faculty advisor 
(If I pull this off, you'll never have to 
worry about funding)
Imagine your senior project (take over an 
undistinguished Midwestern college)


jml
And then there is the sister school, 'ol Miskatonic U
(motto, where student pranks are the least of your problems)


> From: Douglas Berry
> No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!

He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.

What I want to know is:
a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
Science?
b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?
c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 20:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Apr 19 19:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419224704.024bf070@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:34 PM 4/19/2002, Alan Bradley wrote:
>b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?

I believe Transylvania Polygnostic University (Trans-Poly U, motto: "Know 
Enough to be Afraid") offers undergraduate and graduate degrees in both.

>c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

I dunno, but Girl Genius is one heck of a comic book, if you're at all into 
Evil Medicine and Mad Science.  See: http://www.steamenginetime.com/


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F262jQlc7vtdFq7ImxU00001228@hotmail.com>

From: Charles McKnight <res0i3sf@verizon.net>

     Try searching for the term "table of organization and equipment"   
(include the surrounding quotes).


Mr. McKnight,

     Thanks for the tip.  As way of illustrating my dearth of research 
skills, I've been mindlessly typing "TO&E" into various search engines.  I 
never thought to actually SPELL the acronym out!  Did I mention that my head 
comes to a point?

     "Sorry for putting this on the web, but I can't contact you offlist 
without an email address.  :-)"

     Yet another example of typical Whipsnadian brain flatulence.  I ask the 
kind folk of the TML to contact me off-List and then neglect to provide the 
address.  Did I mention that my head comes to a point?
     Thanks again for your help.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <F55rVycmnh1OcA5ZWae0000d381@hotmail.com>

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>

     "I dunno, but Girl Genius is one heck of a comic book,..."



Mr. Wildstar,

     Perhaps the finest comic book series of the last half century is "Reid 
Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman".
     The seminal work gave us such lines as "I'm not bald, I get my hair cut 
this way." and "Seventy nine cents or I piss on your flowers."  Surely, the 
last alone puts "Fleming" in the canon of timeless Western literature.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <F55rVycmnh1OcA5ZWae0000d381@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:20:23AM +0000
References: <F55rVycmnh1OcA5ZWae0000d381@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020419212734.A1287@4dv.net>

On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:20:23AM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> 
>      Perhaps the finest comic book series of the last half century is "Reid 
> Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman".
>      The seminal work gave us such lines as "I'm not bald, I get my hair cut 
> this way." and "Seventy nine cents or I piss on your flowers."  Surely, the 
> last alone puts "Fleming" in the canon of timeless Western literature.

Now if I could only lay my hands on an issue.  Are they still in print?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In love, she who gives her portrait promises the original.  --Bruton 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204200336.EOZ00886@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>Subject: Re: [TML] Radioactivity Rules  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 03:20:23AM +0000, Larsen E. 
>Whipsnade wrote:
>> 
>>      Perhaps the finest comic book series of the last half 
>>century is "Reid 
>> Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman".
>>      The seminal work gave us such lines as "I'm not bald, 
>>I get my hair cut 
>> this way." and "Seventy nine cents or I piss on your 
>>flowers."  Surely, the 
>> last alone puts "Fleming" in the canon of timeless Western 
literature.
>
>Now if I could only lay my hands on an issue.  Are they 
still in print?
>
>-- 


I still like my Flaming Carrot.  It reminded me of me - but 
instead of comic books, it was reading and re-reading 
Traveller books and supplements continuously until I had 
brain damage.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 21:58:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 19 20:58:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Some Info...
In-Reply-To: <OF98BD72DE.DB3A42D5-ON85256B9F.005EA550@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEOAHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

William Lane wrote :
> do we have any Aeronautical Engineers on the list?

I'm primarily avionics, but I was cross-trained so I could be
ground crew for the RNZAF aerobatic team.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 23:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 19 22:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEOPHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> On 18 Apr 2002 at 6:46, Daniel Tackett wrote:
> The modern system has its origins in Medieval Europe,
> with knigh's evolving into the aristocratic officer
> class, etc.

Actually, it went the other way.
Peasants were given commissions from the crown so that they could
order around knights and other nobles, or so that lower ranking
nobles with better tactical capabilities could order around
higher-ranking nobles.

Commissions were actually a practical way of dealing with the
military problems involved in your military hierarchy being the
same as the hierarchy of your hereditary nobility.

> > I think it instills elitism in the wrong kind of
> > people and the wrong kind of people are less likely to
> > be patient enough for a couple of years as a grunt.
>
> That's also my feeling.

There is an extremely fine speech on leadership given by the then
commanding officer at Fort Sheridan, Major C.A. Bach,  who also
"came from the ranks" that is just as relevant today as when it
was given at the turn of the century. I'll see if I can dig out a
copy and post it, as while parts of it  are a little
anachronisitic, the core concepts, I believe, fit well with
Traveller's "Rule by men, not laws"

> > Not to say that we don't have some fine officers now,
> > but they still need to know what it's like to be
> > treated like a pawn in a chess game. I doubt this
> > ideology would work well for pilots though.
>
> Pilots are made into officers for reasons of tradition
> and there's no real reason for them to be, no matter
> what they might say on this.

It's not tradition. The Air Force (any air force) is too young to
have traditions. <grin>

Pilots in the New Zealand Air Force are currently, and have been
for the last twenty odd years or so, officers so that they can
order around grunt officers when they are on their aircraft (the
same reason that a Naval officer is always put in charge of any
ship carrying troops, even though you don't have to be an officer
to command a ship in the Navy), and also because we've got so few
of them that it would be difficult if one or two were enlisted
and the others weren't, as they wouldn't be able to (legally)
drink together.

The RNZAF had sergeant pilots druring World War II, and also
during the Malaysian 'adventure'.

In a larger air forces, including the U.K., the US, and the USSR,
and especially in combat wings, not all pilots are (or were)
officers. It's possible all UK pilots are now officers, seeing as
the UK has also been reducing it's spending, but there were
sergeant and warrant officer pilots in the R.A.F. definitely as
late as the fifities, and also in the US Army Air Corp in Vietnam
in the late sixties/early seventies, to mention examples where I
have personal knowledge.

However all pilots AFAIK have had rank of some sort, the lowest
I'm aware of is "corporal" pilots in Soviet Frontal Aviation.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 19 23:45:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 19 22:45:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020419212734.A1287@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOPHKAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

As I promised in another post here is the text of a speech on
leadership given by Major C.A. Bach
While parts of it are a little anachronistic, the core concepts,
I believe, fit well with Traveller.

Know Your Men, Your Business and Yourself
by Major C. A. Bach, US Army

In a short time each of you men will control the lives of a
certain number of other men. You will have in your charge loyal
but untrained citizens, who look to you for instruction and
guidance. Your word will be their law. Your most casual remark
will be remembered. Your mannerism will be aped. Your clothing,
your carriage, your vocabulary, your manner of command will be
imitated.

When you join your organization you will find there a willing
body of men who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that
will command their respect, their loyalty and their obedience.
They are perfectly ready and eager to follow you so long as you
can convince them that you have those qualities. When the time
comes that they are satisfied you do not possess them you might
as well kiss yourself goodbye. Your usefulness in that
organization is at an end.

From the standpoint of society, the world may be divided into
leaders and followers. The professions have their leaders, the
financial world has its leaders. We have religious leaders, and
political leaders, and society leaders. In all this leadership it
is difficult, if not impossible, to separate from the element of
pure leadership that selfish element of personal gain or
advantage to the individual, without which such leadership would
lose its value.

It is in the military service only, where men freely sacrifice
their lives for a faith, where men are willing to suffer and die
for the right or the prevention of a great wrong, that we can
hope to realise leadership in its most exalted and disinterested
sense. Therefore, when I say leadership, I mean military
leadership.

In a few days the great mass of you men will receive commissions
as officers. These commissions will not make you leaders; they
will merely make you officers. They will place you in a position
where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
attributes. But you must make good - not so much with the men
over you as with the men under you.

Men must and will follow into battle officers who are not
leaders, but the driving power behind these men is not enthusiasm
but discipline. They go with doubt and trembling, and with an
awful fear tugging at their heartstrings that prompts the
unspoken question, &#8220;What will he do next?&#8221;

Such men obey the letter of their orders but no more. Of devotion
to their commander, of exalted enthusiasm, which scorns personal
risk, of their self-sacrifice to ensure his personal safety, they
know nothing. Their legs carry them forward because their brain
and their training tell them they must go. Their spirit does not
go with them.
Great results are not achieved by cold, passive, unresponsive
soldiers. They don't go very far and they stop as soon as they
can. Leadership not only demands but receives the willing,
unhesitating, unfaltering obedience and loyalty of other men; and
a devotion that will cause them when the time comes to follow
their uncrowned king to bell and back again if necessary.

You will ask yourselves "Of just what, then, does leadership
consist? What must I do to become a leader? What are the
attributes of leadership and how can 1 cultivate them?"

Leadership is a composite of a number of qualities. Among the
most important I would list self-confidence, moral ascendancy,
self-sacrifice, paternalism, fairness, initiative, decision,
dignity, courage.

Let me discuss these with you in detail.

Self-confidence results, first, from exact knowledge, second, the
ability to impart that knowledge and, third, the feeling of
superiority over others that naturally follows. All these give
the officer poise.

To lead, you must know, you may bluff all your men some of the
time, but you can't do it all the time. Men will not have
confidence in an officer unless he knows his business, and he
must know it from the ground up.

The officer should know more about paperwork than his first
sergeant and company clerk put together, he should know more
about messing than his mess sergeant, more about diseases of the
horse than his troop farrier. He should be at least as good a
shot as any man in his company.

If the officer does not know, and demonstrates the fact that he
does not know, it is entirely human for the soldier to say to
himself, "To hell with him. He doesn't know as much about this as
I do", and calmly disregard the instruction received.

There is no substitute for accurate knowledge. Become so well
informed that men will hunt you up to ask questions - that your
brother officers will say to one another, "Ask Smith - he knows".

And not only should each officer know thoroughly the duties of
his own grade, but he should study those of the two grades next
above him. A two-fold benefit attaches to this. He prepares
himself for duties which may fall to his lot at any time during
battle; he further gains a broader viewpoint which enables him to
appreciate the necessity for the issuance of orders and join more
intelligently in their execution.

Not only must the officer know, but he must learn to stand on his
feet and speak without embarrassment.
1 am told that in British training camps student officers are
required to deliver ten-minute talks on any subject they may
choose. That is excellent practice. For to speak clearly one must
think clearly; and clear, logical thinking expresses itself in
definite, positive orders.

While self-confidence is the result of knowing more than your
men, moral ascendancy over them is based upon your belief that
you are the better man. To gain and maintain this ascendancy you
must have self-control, physical vitality and endurance and moral
force.

You must have yourself so well in hand that, even though in
battle you are scared stiff, you will never show fear. For if you
by so much as a hurried movement or a trembling of the hand, or a
change of expression, or a hasty order hastily revoked, indicate
your mental condition it will be reflected in your men in a far
greater degree.

In garrison or camp many instances will arise to try your temper
and wreck the sweetness of your disposition. If at such times you
&#8220;fly off the handle&#8221; you have no business to be in charge of men.
For men in anger say and do things that they almost invariably
regret afterwards.

An officer should never apologise to his men., also an officer
should never be guilty of an act for which his sense of justice
tells him he should apologise.

Another element in gaining moral ascendancy lies in the
possession of enough physical vitality and endurance to withstand
the hardships to which you and your men are subjected, and a
dauntless spirit that enables you not only to accept them
cheerfully but to minimise their magnitude.

Make light of your troubles, belittle your trials, and you will
help vitally to build up within your organization an esprit whose
value in time of stress cannot be measured.

Moral force is the third element in gaining moral ascendancy. To
exert moral force you must live clean, you must have sufficient
brain power to see the right and the will to do right.

Be an example to your men. An officer can be a power for good or
power for evil. Don&#8217;t preach to them - that will be worse than
useless. Live the kind of life you would have them lead, and you
will be surprised to see the number that will imitate you.

A loud-mouthed, profane captain who is careless of his personal
appearance will have a loud mouthed, profane, dirty company.
Remember what I tell you. Your company will be the reflection of
yourself. If you have a rotten company it will be because you are
a rotten captain.

Self sacrifice is essential to leadership. You will give, give
all the time. You will give of yourself physically, for the
longest hours, the hardest work and the greatest responsibility
is the lot of the captain. He is the first man up in the morning
and the last man in at night. He works while others sleep.

You will give of yourself mentally, in sympathy and appreciation
for the troubles of men in your charge. This one&#8217;s mother has
died, and that one has lost all his savings in a bank failure.
They may desire help, but more than anything else they desire
sympathy.

Don&#8217;t make the mistake of turning such men down with the
statement that you have troubles of your own, for every time that
you do you knock a stone out of the foundation of your house.
Your men are your foundation, and your house leadership will
tumble about your ears unless it rests securely upon them.

Finally, you will give of your own slender financial resources.
You will frequently spend your money to conserve the health or
well being of your men or to assist them when in trouble.
Generally you get your money back. Very infrequently you must
charge it to profit and loss.

When I say that paternalism is essential to leadership I use the
term in its better sense. I do not now refer to that form of
paternalism which robs men of initiative, self-reliance, and
self- respect. I refer to the paternalism that manifests itself
in a watchful care for the comfort and welfare of those in your
charge.

Soldiers are much like children. You must see that they have
shelter, food, and clothing, the best that your utmost efforts
can provide. You must be far more solicitous of their comfort
than of your own. You must see that they have food to eat before
you think of your own, that they have each as good a bed as can
be provided before you consider where you will sleep. You must
look after their health. You must conserve their strength by not
demanding needless exertion or useless labour.

And by doing all these things you are breathing life into what
would be otherwise a mere machine. You are creating a soul in
your organization that will make the mass respond to you as
though it were one man. And that is esprit.

And when your organization has this esprit you will wake up some
morning and discover that the tables have been turned; that
instead of your constantly looking out for them they have,
without even a hint from you, taken up the task of looking out
for you. You will find that a detail is always there to see that
your tent, if you have one, is promptly pitched, that the most
and the cleanest bedding is brought to your tent; that from some
mysterious source two eggs have been added to your supper when no
one else has any, that an extra man is helping your men give your
horse a super grooming, that your wishes are anticipated, that
every man is Johnny-on-the-spot. And then you have arrived.

Fairness is another element without which leadership can neither
be built up nor maintained. There must be first that fairness
which treats all men justly. I do not say alike, for you cannot
treat all men alike - that would be assuming that all men are cut
from the same piece; that there is no such thing as individuality
or a personal equation.

You cannot treat all men alike; a punishment that would be
dismissed by one man with a shrug of the shoulders is mental
anguish for another. A company commander, who for a given offence
has a standard punishment that applies to all is either too
indolent or too stupid to study the personality of his men. In
his case justice is certainly blind.

Study your men as carefully as a surgeon studied a difficult
case. And when you are sure of your diagnosis apply the remedy.
And remember that you apply the remedy to effect a cure, not
merely to see the victim squirm. It may be necessary cut deep,
but when you are satisfied as to your diagnosis don&#8217;t be divided
from your purpose by any false sympathy for the patient.

Hand in band with fairness in awarding punishment walks fairness
in giving credit. Everybody hates a human hog.
When one of your men has accomplished an especially creditable
piece of work, see that he gets the proper reward. Turn heaven
and earth upside down to get it for him. Don&#8217;t try to take it
away from him and hog it for yourself. You may do this and get
away with it, but you have lost the respect and loyalty of your
men. Sooner or later your brother officers will hear of it and
shun you like a leper. In war there is glory enough for all. Give
the man under you his due. The man who always takes and never
gives is not a leader. He is a parasite.

There is another kind of fairness - that which will prevent an
officer from abusing the privileges of his rank - when you exact
respect from soldiers be sure you treat them with equal respect.
Build up their manhood and self-respect - don&#8217;t try to pull it
down.

For an officer to be overbearing and insulting in the treatment
of enlisted men is the act of a coward. He ties the man to a tree
with the rope of discipline and then strikes him in the face,
knowing full well that the man cannot strike back.

Consideration, courtesy, and respect from officers towards
enlisted men are not incompatible with discipline. They are parts
of our discipline. Without initiative and decision no man can
expect to lead.

In manoeuvres you will frequently see, when an emergency arises,
certain men calmly give instant orders which later, on analysis,
prove to be, if not exactly the right thing, very nearly the
right thing to have done. You will see other men in emergency
become badly rattled; their brains refuse to work, or they give a
hasty order, revoke it; give another, revoke that; in short, show
every indication of being in a blue funk.

Regarding the first man you may say &#8220;That man is a genius. He
hasn&#8217;t had time to reason this thing out. He acts intuitively&#8221;.

Forget it.

&#8220;Genius is merely the capacity for taking infinite pains&#8221;.

The man who was ready is the man who has prepared himself. He has
studied beforehand the possible situation that might arise, he
has made tentative plans covering such situations. When he is
confronted by the emergency he is ready to meet it.

He must have sufficient mental alertness to appreciate the
problem that confronts him and the power of quick reasoning to
determine what changes are necessary in his already formulated
plan. He must have also the decision to order the execution and
stick to his orders.

Any reasonable order in an emergency is better than no order. The
situation is there. Meet it. It is better to do something and do
the wrong thing than to hesitate, hunt around for the right thing
to do and wind up by doing nothing at all. And, having decided on
a line of action, stick to it. Don&#8217;t vacillate. Men have no
confidence in an officer who doesn't&#8217;t know his own mind.

Occasionally you will be called upon to meet a situation which no
reasonable human being could anticipate. If you have prepared
yourself to meet other emergencies which you could anticipate the
mental training you have thereby gained will enable you to act
promptly and with calmness.

You must frequently act without orders from higher authority.
Time will not permit you to wait for them. Here again enters the
importance of studying the work of officers above you. If you
have a comprehensive grasp of the entire situation and can form
an idea of the general plan of your superiors, that and your
previous emergency training will enable you to determine that the
responsibility is yours and to issue the necessary orders without
delay.

The element of personal dignity is important in military
leadership. Be the friend of your men, but do not become their
intimate. Your men should stand in awe of you - not fear. If your
men presume to become familiar it is your fault, not theirs. Your
actions have encouraged them to do so.

And, above all things, don&#8217;t cheapen yourself by courting their
friendship or currying their favour. They will despise you for
it. If you are worthy of their loyalty and respect and devotion
they will surely give all these without asking. If you are not,
nothing that you can do will win them.

And then I would mention courage. Moral courage you need as well
as physical courage- that kind of moral courage which enables you
to adhere without faltering to a determined course of action
which your judgement has indicated as the one best suited to
secure the desired results.

Every time you change your orders without obvious reason you
weaken your authority and impair the confidence of your men. Have
the moral courage to stand by your order and see it through.

Moral courage further demands that you assume the responsibility
for your own acts. If your subordinates have loyally carried out
your orders and the movement you directed is a failure, the
failure is yours, not theirs. Yours would have been the honour
had it been successful. Take the blame if it results in disaster.
Don&#8217;t try to shift it to a subordinate and make him the goat.
That is a cowardly act.

Furthermore you will need moral courage to determine the fate of
those under you. You will frequently be called upon for
recommendations for the promotion or demotion of officers and
non-commissioned officers in your immediate command.

Keep clearly in mind your personal integrity and the duty you owe
your country. Do not let yourself be deflected from a strict
sense of justice by feelings of personal friendship. If your own
brother is your second lieutenant, and you find him unfit to hold
his commission, eliminate him. If you don&#8217;t, your lack of moral
courage may result in the loss of valuable lives.

If, on the other hand, you are called upon for a recommendation
concerning a man whom, for personal reasons you thoroughly
dislike, do not fail to do him full justice. Remember that your
aim is the general good, not the satisfaction of an individual
grudge.

I am taking it for granted that you have physical courage. I need
not tell you how necessary that is. Courage is more than bravery.
Bravery is fearlessness - the absence of fear. The nearest dolt
may be brave, because he lacks the mentality to appreciate his
danger; he does&#8217;t know enough to be afraid.

Courage, however, is that firmness of spirit, that moral
backbone, which, while fully appreciating the danger involved,
nevertheless goes on with the undertaking. Bravery is physical;
courage is mental and moral. You may be cold all over, your hands
may tremble; your legs may quake; your knees be ready to give
way - that is fear. If, nevertheless, you go forward; if in spite
of this physical defection you continue to lead your men against
the enemy, you have courage.

All physical manifestations of fear will pass away. You may never
experience them but once. They are the &#8220;buck fever&#8221; of the hunter
who tries to shoot his first deer. You must not give way to them.

A number of years ago, while taking a course in demolitions, the
class of which I was a member was handling dynamite. The
instructor said regarding its manipulation &#8220;I must caution you
gentlemen to be careful in the use of these explosives. One man
has but one accident.&#8221; And so I would caution you. If you give
way to the fear that will doubtless beset you in your first
action, if you show the white feather, if you let your men go
forward while you hunt a shell crater, you will never again have
the opportunity of leading those men.

Use judgement in calling on your men for display of physical
courage or bravery. Don&#8217;t ask any man to go where you would not
go yourself. If your common sense tells you that the place is too
dangerous for you to venture into; then it is too dangerous for
him. You know his life is as valuable to him as yours is to you.

Occasionally some of your men must be exposed to danger which you
cannot share. A message must be taken across a fire-swept zone.
You call for volunteers. If your men know you and know that you
are &#8216;right&#8217; you will never lack volunteers, for they will know
your heart is in your work, that you are giving your country the
best you have; that you would willingly carry the message
yourself if you could. Your example and enthusiasm will have
inspired them.

And lastly, if you aspire to leadership, I would urge you to
study men. Get under their skins and find out what is inside.
Some men are quite different from what they appear to be on the
surface. Determine the workings of their minds.

Much of General Robert E. Lee&#8217;s success as a leader may be
ascribed to his ability as a psychologist. He knew most of his
opponents from West Point days, knew the workings of their minds,
and he believed that they would do certain things under certain
circumstances. In nearly every case he was able to anticipate
their movements and block the execution.

You do not know your opponent in this war in the same way. But
you can know your own men. You can study each to determine
wherein lies his strength and his weakness; which man can be
relied upon to the last gasp and which cannot.

~~~~~~~

The document I have ends here, though it looks like perhaps there
should be a little more to it.

A note attached to the copy I have reads :
"C. A. Bach enlisted in the Thirteenth Minnesota Infantry of the
National Guard and served as a sergeant with the regiment in the
Philippines. Promoted to a Lieutenancy in the Thirty-sixth US
volunteer Infantry, he transferred in the Regular Establishment
as a first lieutenant in the Seventh Cavalry and advanced therein
to his majority.

His analysis of how to be a leader &#8211; an address delivered to the
graduating officers of the Second Training Camp at Fort
Sheridan - so moved the Reserve officers of his battalion, that
they besieged him for copies. The Waco (Texas) &#8216;Daily Times
Herald&#8217;, learning of the great interest the speech had aroused,
obtained a copy and printed it verbatim in January 1918.

A copy of the speech was inserted in the Congressional Record by
Senator Henrik Shipstead of Minnesota in November 1942, and
printed as Congressional Document 289. All of us who were NROTC
students at the University of Washington in 1943 were given
copies and, since the document is no longer in print, may I urge
you to reprint, in its entirety, what is generally regarded as
the best composition on &#8216;Leadership&#8217; ever recorded?&#8221;

I received this document from a Warrant Officer with whom I
served, W.O Brian Reid, one who also ended up getting a
commission as a Squadron Leader, and became the T.O of RNZAF base
Wigram shortly before it was closed for flying duties.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 00:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 23:21:03 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420000950.04392b20@rollanet.org>

>
>
>That's why I've always found emphasis on democracy to be more than a
>little foolish.  Certainly, it appears that democracy has the best
>chance of ensuring liberty--but it is just as capable of ensuring
>tyranny.  I don't care who rules or how, so long as I am free.  If a
>king, an emperor or the Great Purple Poobah of Penglesh ensures my
>liberties, I'll quite happily be a subject.

"In contradiction," answered signor Ottaviano, "I will deploy just one 
argument, namely, that there only three forms of sound government: 
monarchy, the rule of the good (in the ancient world called the optimates) 
and government by the citizens. And the degenerate and lawless forms taken 
by these systems when they are ruined and corrupted are, in place of 
monarchy, tyranny, in place of the best, government by a few powerful men, 
and in place of the citizens, government by the common people, which wrecks 
the constitution and surrenders complete power to the control of the multitude.

--excerpt from The Book of the Courtier (1528) by Baldesar Castiglione
translated 1967 by George Bull

It's an old debate.


--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 00:23:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Apr 19 23:23:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <B8E5C044.577B2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420003838.0435ca70@rollanet.org>

At 02:38 PM 4/19/02, you wrote:
>on 4/19/02 12:32 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> > or no reason for them to be grunts first?
> >
>
>The Air Force doesn't have 'grunts'.  Didn't you know that?  They have
>technicians (Excepting Para Rescue and a few other oddballs who'd probably
>be happier in the Army or Marines. :)
>
>--

They do have those base security teams that get a whopping whole two weeks 
of ground combat training. I've even heard that during some part of those 
two weeks the trainees actually sleep in real tents on the ground.


------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com

Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.

--John Ciardi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 03:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 20 02:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020420004404.79A6F279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16yrdg-0001rp-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

"Samuel Weiss" <samwise1@msn.com> wrote:

> Don't forge the influence of Rand on Libertarianism.
> And of course, don't forget that the current Libertarian party
> leadership fully believes in guilt by association. Consider the habits of Rand
>  and the later writings of Heinlein and then consider what they say about
> Libertarians.
 
I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and 
that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually 
fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine 
sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas 
all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.

Libertarianism is in itself an oddly changeable term.  It was 
originated in (IIRC) the first few decades of the 20th century (maybe 
the 1920s) as a name fo Anarchists that avoided the negative label.

By the 1960s and early 1970s is was a (by modern standards) 
fairly leftist organization that promoted ideas like legalized drugs 
and Milton Freidman's proposal for a negative income tax (a brilliant 
proposal that was deemed by the then libertarians to be both fair 
and as an excellent method for eliminating poverty).  In the late 
1970s and early 1980s the libertarian movement was transformed 
into an organization that had far more of a focus on cutting taxes 
and preserving private property rights at all costs, in essence it 
went from primarily promoting social changes to promoting 
economic ones.  Having talked to some older (and rather bitter 
libertarians, it seems clear that at least part of the change in the 
movement came from outsiders co-opting the party (although some 
of the change was also internal).  

ObTrav, in several hundred years it would be interesting to note 
how various organizations have changed. A Feudal Technocracy 
could easily go from being a technocratic meritocracy to being a 
static and rigid system of technological oriented castes and still 
maintain the same designation.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  

  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 06:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat Apr 20 05:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16yrdg-0001rp-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <003801c1e868$a68e21e0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of
sneadj@mindspring.com
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 02:58
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism


Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
eliminate poverty?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 08:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 20 07:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b@aol.com>

--part1_8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b_boundary
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> I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and 
> that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually 
> fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine 
> sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas 
> all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.

Heinlein was, by all accounts, a minarchist - he believed that
government was a necessary evil. Insofar as you can discover his
political stance from his writings he wasn't an anarchist at all (and
he *certainly* wasn't a fascist :-/). I think his political views were
built out of faith in the soldier's virtues, along with nostalgia for the
kind of Western-frontier society that was already dying out when
he was born.

Rand was actually not a libertarian, and held libertarians in disdain.
Mostly because the people using the label at the time were much
into legalizing narcotics, as you point out. I suppose you could
also call her a minarchist, although to be sure she arrived at that
position through some of the strangest ethical notions I've ever
come across. She did have one or two useful insights, but for the
most part she strikes me as the last and most vocal advocate for
Social Darwinism.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Cultivate patience."

--part1_8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and 
<BR>&gt; that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually 
<BR>&gt; fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine 
<BR>&gt; sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas 
<BR>&gt; all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.
<BR>
<BR>Heinlein was, by all accounts, a minarchist - he believed that
<BR>government was a necessary evil. Insofar as you can discover his
<BR>political stance from his writings he wasn't an anarchist at all (and
<BR>he *certainly* wasn't a fascist :-/). I think his political views were
<BR>built out of faith in the soldier's virtues, along with nostalgia for the
<BR>kind of Western-frontier society that was already dying out when
<BR>he was born.
<BR>
<BR>Rand was actually not a libertarian, and held libertarians in disdain.
<BR>Mostly because the people using the label at the time were much
<BR>into legalizing narcotics, as you point out. I suppose you could
<BR>also call her a minarchist, although to be sure she arrived at that
<BR>position through some of the strangest ethical notions I've ever
<BR>come across. She did have one or two useful insights, but for the
<BR>most part she strikes me as the last and most vocal advocate for
<BR>Social Darwinism.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, hacker, freelance writer, amateur historian,
<BR>occasional scribbler of bad poetry
<BR>JFZeigler@aol.com
<BR>"Cultivate patience."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_8f.1ab8101d.29f2cf3b_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 08:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 20 07:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
Message-ID: <200204201431.EPV00623@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Frank Pitt
<snip long post>

The most important quality I saw that was necessary and often 
missing in officers was the ability to properly delegate.

This bit of advice comes down through history in the form of 
the world's first recorded advice from a father-in-law, from 
Jethro, to his son-in-law Moses.

If you can't delegate, you can't lead.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 09:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Apr 20 08:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freelance Traveller is now Fan Site of the Week at RPGNews!
Message-ID: <o913cukv513imfb9up0a45fmfejbbava7u@4ax.com>

I just checked the site (http://www.rpgnews.rpghost.com/fansite.php) and
Freelance Traveller is the featured site right now!

:)

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 10:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 20 09:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEHJGLAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420084435.009e89f0@mindspring.com>

At 07:40 PM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > From: Douglas Berry
> > No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!
>
>He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
>superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.
>
>What I want to know is:
>a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
>Science?

Mad Science, I'd say.. he seemed to be more the engineer type.

>b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?

Illuminati Univeristy.

>c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

Fnord.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 11:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sat Apr 20 10:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420003838.0435ca70@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <20020420171222.30654.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

> >
> >The Air Force doesn't have 'grunts'.  Didn't you
> know that? 
 Yes, I was using the term loosely in reference to
enlisted personnel.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 11:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Apr 20 10:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204201736.g3KHaCP25223@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 00:08:07 +1200
>Subject: Re: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
...
>>   I'm almost of the opinion that officers 
>> > > should be enlisted first
>> Amen to that. Was it ever like that though?
>
>Not that I know of. 

  Arguably this applied in certain periods of 
Roman history, and perhaps in some other classical
armies (where maybe only members of the right
classes might act as commanders, but far from all
of those eligible would fight except as ordinary
soldiers).

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 12:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Apr 20 11:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>
References: <F1865AMQLNmxxvZ3lzg000002da@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3cc06819.475761@post.demon.co.uk>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:

>     Specifically, I'm interested in TO&Es from the turn of the last=20
>century, say the 1905/Russo-Japanese War to 1918/Great War range.  This=20
>implies large squad automatic weapons, clunky AFVs, and early combat=20
>aircraft.

No on-line sources, I'm afraid, but my copy of the World War One
Sourcebook ISBN 1-85409-351-7 has lots of the information you're
looking for.  As an example, this is the TO&E of a British Infantry
division in 1918:

Three infantry brigades, each comprising three battalions and a trench
mortar battery. (so 9 infantry battalions and 3 mortar batteries
total).

The platoon was the basic manoeuvre unit.  It was divided into 4
sections (with 6-10 people each) plus a light machine gun section
(Lewis guns) and headquarters section (officer, NCO, 2 runners).  One
of the infantry sections was made up of specially-trained bombers
(grenadiers).

=46our platoons plus a headquarters unit made up a rifle company.

=46our companies plus an HQ unit made up a battalion.  Earlier in the
war the battalion HQ unit included a heavy machine gun section
(Vickers); these guns were later withdrawn and concentrated at
divisional level.  A battalion was nominally 977 rifles, 36 Lewis
guns.

It was standard practice for a battalion to leave behind a cadre of
troops before going into action (the "battle surplus") so the unit
could be rebuilt if it suffered major losses.

Three battallions made up an infantry brigade.  By 1918, a brigade
also included a trench mortar battery (eight 3" mortars each).

Three brigades made up a division.  (ie, 9 infantry battalions).

The division also included the following support elements:

Artillery: Two artillery brigades, with a total of six field batteries
(six 18-pounder guns each) and two howitzer batteries (six 4.5"
howitzers each).
(Earlier in the war divisions had more artillery, this was later
concentrated at corps and army level).

Two batteries (six 2" mortars each) of trench mortars.
One battalion (4 companies) of heavy machine guns. (each company with
16 Vickers guns, 64 total)

Three companies of engineers. (each with 217 men, 18 vehicles, 33
bicycles and a pontoon)
One battalion of pioneers.

Staff, signals company, three field hospitals, 21 motor ambulances,
veterinary section, employment company, divisional train (four
companies), ammunition column.
A division had 822 vehicles including 44 motorcycles and 11 motor
cars.  And, presumably, lots of horses.

Divisions were organised into corps, usually of two divisions.  Four
or five corps made up an army.

Tanks were organised into brigades, each of two battalions.  A
battalion (36 tanks) was made up of three companies, each divided into
three 4-tank sections.  Each company also had a "spare section" of 4
tanks in reserve.

Aircraft were attached at corps or army level for reconnaissance and
artillery spotting duties.


Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 12:31:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 20 11:31:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <200204201431.EPV00623@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E701D4.5797E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/20/02 7:31 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> The most important quality I saw that was necessary and often
> missing in officers was the ability to properly delegate.
> 

A problem not restricted to them either.  I sometimes wonder if the
anti-officer bias here comes from the fact that most of the prior service
were enlisted.  I've seen it from both sides.  I've seen my share of idiot
NCOs and some highly stracked Officers.  And the reverse.  I personally
don't see any great advantage in officers having served as enlisted first.

I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me with a special
insight when I had my own platoon.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 13:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sat Apr 20 12:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] travlib 0.6.2
Message-ID: <20020420130659.A28851@4dv.net>

This is a message for the programmers on the list.  If you're not a
programmer, I doubt that this will be of much interest to you.

Well, once again it's time to announce another subminor release of
travlib.  This release is in many ways an aesthetic release, as
attractive code is invariably better than ugly code.  Indeed, the
corrections were inspired by mass lossage in certain parts of what I
had written.  The code base has been shrunk to 10,504 LOC, down from,
IIRC some 12-15 KLOC.  A smaller code base is a more maintainable code
base.

The most visible two correction are the regularising of both
constructor return types and the manner in which children of an object
are accessed.  As for the first, every _new() now returns a
TravMapobject*.  This is much more like the standard gtk+ way of doing
things than before, and is considerably simpler from a user
perspective.

Regarding the second, the correct way to access the children of an
object is to call trav_mapobject_get_children(),
trav_mapobject_set_children(), trav_mapobject_add_child() and
trav_mapobject_remove_child().  No more messing with
trav_galaxy_get_sectors(), trav_sector_add_subsector(),
trav_planet_set_moons() &c.  These are all logically related
activities, and it makes sense that a single suite of functions be
used.  I am going to add trav_mapobject_add_children() and
trav_mapobject_remove_children() eventually.

A side effect of this is that the children of e.g. a star are its
planets and its companion stars, and that the children of a planet are
its governments and moons.  The user can either call
trav_mapobject_get_children() and filter them on his own, or call the
appropriate class-level function.  In these cases they'd be,
respectively, trav_non_dwarf_star_get_planets(),
trav_star_get_companions(), trav_planetary_object_get_governments()
and trav_planet_get_moons().  Note that not all of these have been
written.

There has also been some slight progress with the Scheme GURPS
Traveller: First In object generation.  Nothing major yet, as
travtrack really needs to be in a more advanced state for generation
to be testable/usable &c.

On the travtrack front, I am busily working away on the galaxy and
sector browsers.  I've created a GenericBrowser base class which is
working pretty decently so far, and is much better than my old ad hoc
nonsense.  These changes are all in CVS; they've yet to be released.

The website, as ever, is <http://travtrack.sf.net/>.  If you just wish
to download files, I'd suggest <http://sf.net/projects/travtrack/>.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe
what you just said.                           --William F. Buckley, Jr.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 13:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Apr 20 12:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
References: <008401c1e814$66d660c0$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8e76dfb3ac3@[198.123.22.170]>

At 12:34 PM +1000 4/20/02, Alan Bradley wrote:
>  > From: Douglas Berry
>>  No way!  I want to be Casanova Frankenstein!
>
>He was actually a mad scientist/evil mastermind type, without any obvious
>superpowers.  Clearly he used test subjects in his radiation experiments.
>
>What I want to know is:
>a)  did he attend Evil Medical School, or did he merely graduate in Mad
>Science?
>b)  What universities offer courses in Evil Medicine or Mad Science?

Illuminati University of course....

>c)  How do you apply to enter these courses?

If you have to ask, you wouldn't survive....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Apr 20 13:11:02 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420000950.04392b20@rollanet.org>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420000950.04392b20@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <3cc1ca9e.6194791@post.demon.co.uk>

Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org> writes:

>--excerpt from The Book of the Courtier (1528) by Baldesar Castiglione
>translated 1967 by George Bull
>
>It's an old debate.

Even older than that, since Castiglione was simply paraphrasing
Aristotle's 'Politics' written in about 340 BC...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 14:13:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 20 13:13:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
Message-ID: <200204202010.EQF02707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>
>I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me 
>with a special insight when I had my own platoon.
>

I think it's better to find out that someone can't delegate 
when they're an NCO (or even a corporal) rather then after we 
waste the money to make them an officer.

Of course, I don't believe that leadership can be "taught".  
Talent in this area can be nurtured, grown, and refined, but 
never "taught".  If you can't lead or delegate to begin with, 
no amount of training is going to make a difference.

One other area of "talent" that isn't easily remedied by 
training - tactical ability, and an ability to implement that 
tactical brilliance in your platoon. All platoon drills 
aside -- can you and your men really fight?  I remember 
watching platoons turning into indecisive, sleep-deprived 
zombies because no one in the chain of command, officer or 
nco, could get it all together.  There's nothing more 
unnerving to me than watching a platoon in training mill 
around in my scope when a few of them are hit with MILES 
gear.  Watching the men peep their heads in and out of the 
woodline like idiots.  Officers and NCOs scratching their 
heads and having a committee meeting to decide what to do.  I 
even remember a fat platoon sergeant ambling out into the 
open, looking up and down the danger space, trying to figure 
out where I was.

Not all platoons were this bad, thank God.  But there were 
some like that.  And I put the blame not only on the LT, but 
on the NCOs in the platoon.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 16:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 20 15:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
Message-ID: <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>

--part1_155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Hi,
   Looking for alien stats for Traveller (CT/MT) the other day on the WWWeb, 
I ran across a pretty extensive (and frankly, kind of frightening as well) 
list of Traveller-related aliens, and was wondering if folks might be able to 
help me out with stats for several species that looked pretty interesting. 
   Adduxar: Carnivorous reptilians from the Zhodani book.
   Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.
   Brinn: Spider/Crablike mix from TravDigest 12.
   Ebokin: An Octopoid from The Traveller Adventure.
   Sambiqys: Red-zoned Androids from JTAS 24.
   Murians: Stocky and hirsuite from Vanguard Reaches.

   Now I'm not looking for a huge writeup or career tables or anything like 
that; merely the information on rolling up the creature's stats (+any natural 
armor or natural weapons)
   Thanks in advance :)
   Boy, if BITS or someone knocked out a 101 Aliens that'd be compatible with 
CT/MT, I know I'D sure buy it  :)

  -Ken Murphy-
   

--part1_155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Looking for alien stats for Traveller (CT/MT) the other day on the WWWeb, I ran across a pretty extensive (and frankly, kind of frightening as well) list of Traveller-related aliens, and was wondering if folks might be able to help me out with stats for several species that looked pretty interesting. 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Adduxar: Carnivorous reptilians from the Zhodani book.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Brinn: Spider/Crablike mix from TravDigest 12.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Ebokin: An Octopoid from The Traveller Adventure.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Sambiqys: Red-zoned Androids from JTAS 24.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Murians: Stocky and hirsuite from Vanguard Reaches.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Now I'm not looking for a huge writeup or career tables or anything like that; merely the information on rolling up the creature's stats (+any natural armor or natural weapons)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks in advance :)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Boy, if BITS or someone knocked out a 101 Aliens that'd be compatible with CT/MT, I know I'D sure buy it &nbsp;:)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 18:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat Apr 20 17:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>

This from the JTAS Online article:

Jgd in Play
Jgd should only be played and handled as NPCs; in the unlikely event of any
PC interacting with one on a personal, violent level, a typical specimen has
ST 12, DX 10, IQ 12, and HT 12/25. Their tough outer integument gives them
PD 2 and DR 5, and they can have a Move and Dodge of about 4. Their internal
gas-bags make them highly vulnerable to penetrating attacks under some
circumstances, but their internal structures are complex and robust; they
never simply "burst."

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of MurfNMurf@aol.com


  Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.

  Now I'm not looking for a huge writeup or career tables or anything like
that; merely the information on rolling up the creature's stats (+any
natural armor or natural weapons)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 18:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Apr 20 17:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] living space
Message-ID: <200204210036.EQN01344@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Just comparing a recent ship design of mine to a current 
nuclear submarine.

It looks like a modern nuclear submarine allocates far, far 
less living space that we allocate in Traveller.  In what 
appears to be the same length of hull (length of living 
quarters space), with a known beam (10 meters in the case of 
the sub, 20 meters in the case of the Traveller ship).

In roughly 176 Traveller displacement tons, the sub has over 
129 crew.  And this is being generous: part of this space is 
taken up by bridge and torpedo tubes.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 18:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr 20 17:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net>

Swordy wrote:
> Jgd should only be played and handled as NPCs;

<rant>
What?  Why should *any* character be restricted to "GM only"?  Yes, I
do include the Emperor here, having played in a campaign which had PCs
of about the same level of power.  This seems to make rather gross
assumptions about what sort of games people are playing.  I suppose
the article didn't bother to give much in the way of game information
for this race, on the pretext that "players won't ever need it".

This is one of my particular peeves: an artificial division of
characters or character types into "PC" and "NPC" is bad enough in a
lot of roleplaying games, but assigning whole *races* to "NPC only" is
just really too much.
</rant>

What unusual type of characters have other players run?

I remember having a lot of fun playing a non-sentient ship's computer
through one adventure.  It was very highly complex, and a source of
surprise to some of the other characters, but didn't have a sense of
"self" at all.

In a fantasy game, I once played a short-lived spirit for a few hours,
while my other involved character was unconscious and dying.  It was
then woven into a spell cast by one of the other characters -- in fact
the very spell that restored my original character to health.

I designed a hive-mind character for another game, an agglomeration of
dozens of individually subsentient creatures about the size of a rat,
but the GM moved away just before that game started.


So as you can imagine, an admonition that "Thou Shalt Not Play Jgd
Characters" isn't likely to sit well with me at all.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 19:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Sat Apr 20 18:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freelance Traveller is now Fan Site of the Week at RPGNews!
In-Reply-To: <o913cukv513imfb9up0a45fmfejbbava7u@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3CC1E030.30576.5FA9886@localhost>

Congrats!

Rob

On 20 Apr 2002 at 11:13, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> I just checked the site (http://www.rpgnews.rpghost.com/fansite.php) and
> Freelance Traveller is the featured site right now!
> 
> :)
> 
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

--
Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
 Spero nos familiares mansuros.
 I hope we'll still be friends.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 21:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Apr 20 20:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 21 Apr 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <jga4cuscmeas4pgo3jqh9sm37lpbf0dttu@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - A day or thereabouts after we posted the last update, we spotted that a
   whole bunch of stuff showed up corrupted - nothing fatal, but not a
   happy-making state of affairs. It's taken most of the past two weeks to
   find and fix the problems. We know how it happened; complaints have been
   made to the appropriate quarters. Apologies for any problems or
   awkwardnesses encountered because of this. 

 - Michl Hughes brings us a quick and easy method for creating TNS news
   items. You can read about it in Doing It My Way. 

 - Freelance Traveller has been selected as the RPGNews.com Fan Site of the
   Week. We're massively flattered - but it's you, the people who have
   supported our continuing efforts, that are deserving of accolades;
   without you, we wouldn't have survived. (We looked at RPGNews.com and
   are very impressed - if you're interested in multiple systems and
   settings, not just Traveller, this is a good place to start!) 

 - Michl Hughes also profiles Calypso McArthur, an ex-freedom fighter now
   scouting or the Imperium. You can meet McArthur in Up Close and
   Personal. 

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the (working!) feedback form at
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/infocenter/feedbackform.html.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to visit our site
and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our existence
possible.




Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 22:03:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Apr 20 21:03:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>

At 11:50 AM 4/21/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Swordy wrote:
> > Jgd should only be played and handled as NPCs;
>
><rant>
>What?  Why should *any* character be restricted to "GM only"?


Because in this case the Jgd exist only in gas giant atmospheres, are 
completely unfathomable to humans, and have no real motivations that humans 
can figure out.

Playing a group of 10 meter spheres that die quickly on most Imperial 
worlds and are allergic to jump would be a bit boring.

Any it says "should," not "must."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com> <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com> <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020421150430.A6895@freeman.little-possums.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Because in this case the Jgd exist only in gas giant atmospheres,
> are completely unfathomable to humans, and have no real motivations
> that humans can figure out.

Sounds not too much unlike some people I've known :)

But seriously, I don't see anything there that makes them more
suitable as NPC material than as PC.


> Playing a group of 10 meter spheres that die quickly on most
> Imperial worlds and are allergic to jump would be a bit boring.

Doesn't sound too bad to me.  Besides, if they're suitable as an NPC
race, why aren't they suitable as PCs?  If they're boring for players
to run, presumably they're just as boring for the GM.  If they're
incomprehensible for players, they're just as incomprehensible for the
GM.


> Any it says "should," not "must."

True, although the distinction is rather slight in modern English.
Both express an obligation in that context, and usually a *moral*
obligation.  I deny that any such obligation applies.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:08:04 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006601c1e8f2$fae49aa0$1db18b90@computer>

Forwarded by: Richard Wilson
> "In contradiction," answered signor Ottaviano, "I will deploy just one
> argument, namely, that there only three forms of sound government:
> monarchy, the rule of the good (in the ancient world called the optimates)
> and government by the citizens. And the degenerate and lawless forms taken
> by these systems when they are ruined and corrupted are, in place of
> monarchy, tyranny, in place of the best, government by a few powerful men,
> and in place of the citizens, government by the common people, which
> wrecks the constitution and surrenders complete power to the control of
> the multitude.

The three 'sound' forms listed are:
monarchy
narrow oligarchy (aristocracy, I guess)
broad oligarchy

The 'degenerate and lawless' forms are:
tyranny
narrow oligarchy(!)
democracy

There isn't really much to say here.  Signor Ottaviano clearly believes
oligarchy is superior to democracy, and who are we to argue?

Tyranny is a much-maligned form of government, I might add.  In real terms,
it's simply an "illegitimate" form of monarchy.  It got its bad name due to
the fact that it usually involved aristocratic factions repressing and
driving out their rivals.  Worse, sometimes the tyrants would seek support
amongst the common rabble, rather than amongst the good, the wise and the
pious.  You know, some of these evil b*st*rds actually tried to engage in
land reform?  The worst of them were in Sparta, where they tried to extend
the franchise!  Imagine that - all those centuries of Spartan discipline
being watered down, just because some brainiac thinks that it's a bad thing
that Sparta can't actually put an effective army in the field any more!

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:10:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>

> From: Stephen Tempest
> Three battallions made up an infantry brigade.  By 1918, a brigade
> also included a trench mortar battery (eight 3" mortars each).
>
> Three brigades made up a division.  (ie, 9 infantry battalions).

The Australian army in WWI used four battalion infantry brigades.  Cavalry
brigades were three regiments (battalions) per brigade.  I'm pretty sure
this was British practice, too.  It's possible that things might have
changed in the British army by 1918 though.  The site below is interesting,
although not detailed past the battalion level:

http://www.adfa.edu.au/~rmallett/

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 20 23:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 20 22:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <DAV63G96gKmsHHbbgCz00018afd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20420.212115.7V6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
> ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
> Sorry to take up space with this.
>
> Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was sent in stand=
> ard format. I use arial as my font. What other setting might I have wrong=
> ?

See below. You are sending html to the list. Check this url for info on
how to not do so:

	http://expita.com/nomime.html

Basicly, if your editor is *giving* you a font choice for a post to a
newsgroup or mailing list, it's either misconfigured or broken.

> Sam
>
> ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <HTML><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff" STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"=
>><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Sorry to take up space with this.</DIV> <DIV>&nbs=
> p;</DIV> <DIV>Styled text? I'm not sure what you mean. I thought that was=
>  sent in standard format. I use arial as my font.<FONT color=3D#000000>&n=
> bsp;What other setting&nbsp;might I have wrong?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;<=
> /DIV> <DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
> ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C1E7C0.78FBCEB0--
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 01:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 00:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20420.223657.0H4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Okay, I think this may be pretty complicated, and I wouldn't be surprised if 
> the answer is "Can't be done" or "Too hard" or "Go pick up a $200 Orbital 
> Dyanmics Textbook and figure it out..."
>
> But...
>
> ...I would _really_ like a formula that would give me the X,Y coordinates of 
> a planet - if one was looking down on a solar system from above, and the 
> primary start is 0,0 - given the orbital parameters of the planet (orbital 
> radius, eccentricity, orbital speed, reference point, etc) and the date.
>
> I'd actually like to be able to do this for _the_ solar system, that is 
> enter 
> "Nov 16 1969" and be able to plot where the planets are on X,Y paper.
>
> Now, I know that there are comercial astronomy programs (Red Shifft, etc) 
> that can do this sort of thing...but I need to try and build this into a 
> different program, so I gotta write the algorithm myself.

A couple of books I have:

Astronomy on the Personal Computer
Oliver Montenbruck & Thomas Pfleger
ISBN: 3-540-63521-1

Practical astronomy with your Personal Computer
Peter Duffet-Smith

I don't have the ISBN on that one as I have the version for calculators.

The first book even includes a disk with source code.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 01:20:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 00:20:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20420.230402.9D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> If this is the case, what would happen if there were a
>> HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump (or
>> during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
>> entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
>> stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
>> have they discovered in regards to this test?

For that matter, if they *did* wind up hundreds or thousands of parsecs
away, how would the folks back at the research station ever find out?

Assuming you could build a transmitter powerful enough, it takes 326
years for a radio (or laser) signal to cross 100 parsecs. So if you
can't get back on your own, nobody will ever know. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 01:23:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 00:23:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020419202918.31056.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20420.230829.0o4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> --- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
>> Paul Walker writes:
>> > 
>> > If this is the case, what would happen if there
>> were a
>> > HUGE jump ship that entered Jump.  While in jump
>> (or
>> > during) there was a smaller ship in the hold that
>> > entered Jump as well.  I'm sure there are research
>> > stations that experiment in Jump Dynamics, so what
>> > have they discovered in regards to this test?
>> 
>> I wouldn't recommend engaging a jump drive while
>> sitting in the hold of a
>> ship already in jump-space. As far as the results of
>> such an event, I would
>> assume a 99.9% chance of a catastrophic catastrophy.
>> Perhaps there'd be a One in a Trillion chance that
>> the ship would end up
>> 300,000 LY away in the Andromeda Galaxy (or at the
>> exit 13A Toll Plaza on
>> the NJ Turnpike for that matter).
>
> But why?  This is the second reply I got that said it
> would be a bad thing and would probably destroy all
> ships involved.  Is there any support for this?  I'm
> not opposed to non OTU, but my original question was
> whether there was anything in the official rules
> and/or history to support or prevent such occurances?

ASs I recall, Marc Miller has stated that all that's known about
attempts to engage a jump drive of a vessel inside a ship ythat's
already in jump is that nobody who planned to try it has ever been
heard from again. 

So either both ships were destroyed or they would up too far away to
get back.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CC0B167.27483.8040B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC32DFD.4695.111623B@localhost>

On 19 Apr 2002 at 12:32, Daniel Tackett wrote:

> .
> > 
> > Pilots are made into officers for reasons of
> > tradition and there's no 
> > real reason for them to be, no matter what they
> > might say on this.
> > 
> Reasons for them to be officers because of tradition
> or no reason for them to be grunts first?

No reason for pilots to be officers. In WWI & WWII the pilots who were 
NCOs did just fine. IIRC Chuck Yeager was a Sergeant for WWII and a 
while after.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020419223552.6515.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020419193213.43535.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC32FBD.15769.11838CB@localhost>

On 19 Apr 2002 at 15:35, Michael Cessna wrote:

>   Pilots are officers because the military does not
> want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
> though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
> the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
> arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
> that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
> wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
> why........

But they're okay with NCOs (sometimes JNCOs) driving/commanding over 50 
tons of AFV, or operating anti-shipping missiles. Yep. Makes sense (I'm 
sure it must do somewhere or when).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <B8E701D4.5797E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200204201431.EPV00623@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC3359D.13137.12F2A22@localhost>

On 20 Apr 2002 at 11:30, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me with a
> special insight when I had my own platoon. 

My reasoning for it is quite simple - having had to lug the sections MG 
through the bush and mud for several weeks gives a person a much better 
idea of just how much more those extra pounds slow and tire a person 
compared with a normal load. Also it would act as a weeding out process 
for some of those who thought it would be fun and games, and look good 
on their CV. I'd want at least a year, preferably two and ideally you 
wouldn't be able to do the actual officer selection until after that 
time (to help stop any favouritism), though in the real world that 
wouldn't work because very few of the sort of people you want would be 
willing to gamble with two years of their life like that.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 03:59:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 02:59:30 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <200204201736.g3KHaCP25223@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3CC3359C.14671.12F2926@localhost>

On 20 Apr 2002 at 10:34, Steven Hudson wrote:

>   Arguably this applied in certain periods of 
> Roman history, and perhaps in some other classical
> armies (where maybe only members of the right
> classes might act as commanders, but far from all
> of those eligible would fight except as ordinary
> soldiers).

True. And in theory the Athens so famour for its democracy didn't have 
an officer class/caste, etc. However in practice only those born of 
wealthy and influential families would be appointed, as with Rome 
(which is why I said there weren't any I knew of).

However it's probably worth noting that in these armies (especially the 
Roman one of the late Republic and early Empire) most of the positions 
we'd consider appropriate for officers were filled by Centurions and 
their superiors, all of whom were 'from the ranks'. There were officers 
above them who weren't from the ranks, but they were few and far 
between (I seem to recall there being none until Legion level, at which 
point there was the CO and several 'staff officers', etc.). Of course 
the rank structure was quite flat by modern western standards, too.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 04:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 03:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <200204202010.EQF02707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC33777.7691.136689C@localhost>

On 20 Apr 2002 at 16:10, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Not all platoons were this bad, thank God.  But there were 
> some like that.  And I put the blame not only on the LT, but 
> on the NCOs in the platoon.

For sure. When a platoon's that bad the OC _and_ the NCOs (all of them) 
need to be hauled over the coals. If that doesn't work send 'em down 
the road - a sideways 'promtion' is a really bad idea - some other poor 
sods might be so unlucky as to be under them when it goes to custard 
someday.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 05:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sun Apr 21 04:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3CC344CF.2707.70F26D@localhost>

On 21 Apr 2002, at 15:11, Alan Bradley wrote:

> The Australian army in WWI used four battalion infantry brigades.  Cavalry
> brigades were three regiments (battalions) per brigade.  I'm pretty sure
> this was British practice, too.  It's possible that things might have
> changed in the British army by 1918 though.  The site below is interesting,
> although not detailed past the battalion level:

At the outbreak of the 1st WW the standard European infantry 
division consisted of two brigades each of two 3 battalion regiments 
(thus giving 12 battalions). The British (and consequently Dominion 
and Empire troops) used a slightly modifed TOE with three 4 
battalion brigades to a division, also giving 12 battalions (BTW the 
Russians used two brigades each with two 4 battalion regiments 
for a total of 16 battalions). This is the classic "square" division

Between 1916 and 1917, the high level of attrition and need for 
further maneuver formations lead to the Germans and French 
changing to divisions consisting of three 3 battalion regiments for a 
total of 9 battalions (this is the now standard "trianglar" division). 
This was initially done simply to get more divisions out of the same 
number of battalions (they lacked the manpower to form new 
battalions), however it was found that the change actually resulted 
in an *increase* in firepower due to the improved tactical flexibility 
of the triangular organisation.

The British stuck with their 12 battalion divisions until 1918 when 
combined attrition of four years of trench warfare finally forced them 
to adopt the triangular division as well (not to get more divisions, 
they just didn't have the manpower to keep the existing divisions at 
12 battalions any more). I think the Australians and Canadians also 
moved to the triangular formation at around the same time. 
However the New Zealanders stuck with the older 12 battalion 
organisation right till the end of the war.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 06:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 05:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML]  Jump at 0 planetary diameters
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020418234703.00aa66d0@mail.pi.se>

Hello!

Leonard Erickson wrote:

 >On the other hand, unless that collision happened *really* late in the
 >formation of the system, such a plent would tend to collect a lot more
 >gas and other stuff, and possibly wind up as a mini-GG.

 From what I recall of astronomy, the gas giants form relatively early in 
the planetary creation phase, before the solar wind has dissipated the gas 
disc. Perhaps within a few million years. The terrestrial worlds 
traditionally are pictured to form over a slightly longer period, maybe ten 
times slower - the planetesimals form quickly, but building planets from 
them take a bit more time. So there is not much of gas to collect for 
terrestrial worlds unless they form very fast. The terrestrial planets 
around our solar system seem to have got most of their atmosphere from 
impacts of comet material and outgassing, even though they would probably 
be massive enough to sweep up and retain several of the gasses in the disc 
had that disc remained when they reached present size.

I believe you mentioned yourself how gas giants are pictured to spiral 
inwards from being formed outside the snow line - it is hard to picture hot 
gas giants formed in place even around systems rich in heavy elements.

Secondarily, if we take the collision-based-planet with a density of 6-6.5 
instead of 5-5.5, it isn't that exceedingly more apt to collect more gas 
even if such gas remains in large amounts when the planet has reached such 
a size. The same problem would certainly exist for a world with slightly 
larger radius than Earth yet still having a lower density of the range you 
apparently accept as possible.

What I argue is that it is possible to build higher density worlds simply 
by using the normal rock & metal mix and examples our (only) sample solar 
system can provide.

 >>Above a certain point, you get runaway accumulation of material, which
 >>results in a gas giant of some sort.

As above, that is highly dependent not only on a limiting size/temperature 
but on whether there is any significant material to accumulate in that manner.

 >Also, that major collision is just as apt to scatter pieces of those
 >rocky world halfway across the system.

I'd wager it rather is much more likely it will shatter both bodies than it 
would stick together.

However, the surviving pieces of such collisions could still form more 
iron-rich cores in further accretion. Much or even most of the disc 
material is possibly ejected from the inner system anyway.

A high-density world would probably be more likely to survive with many 
smaller impacts blasting off parts of the lighter matter than a big one. 
Thus, my initial example was not optimal. But it still is not a reason to 
completely write off planets of say, 6-6.5 density planets as unrealistic 
or exceedingly uncommon - perhaps especially around high-metalicity stars 
where it can be assumed there would be more of rocky and metallic matter to 
accrete in the inner system.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 07:57:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 06:57:33 2002
Subject: [TML] planetoid hulls for GT?
Message-ID: <3CC2C4A6.1F017BE6@mail.cswnet.com>

How can I get a planetoid hull for GT?
Would the stats be in Gurps Vehicles?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 08:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Apr 21 07:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] living space
In-Reply-To: <200204210036.EQN01344@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEOKDOAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Just comparing a recent ship design of mine to a current
>nuclear submarine.
>
>It looks like a modern nuclear submarine allocates far, far
>less living space that we allocate in Traveller.  In what
>appears to be the same length of hull (length of living
>quarters space), with a known beam (10 meters in the case of
>the sub, 20 meters in the case of the Traveller ship).
>
>In roughly 176 Traveller displacement tons, the sub has over
>129 crew.  And this is being generous: part of this space is
>taken up by bridge and torpedo tubes.

Very true. And sailors on sailing ships had even less personal space. The
question is who would want to live like that? Conditions on submarines are
so crowded that since the 1950's submarine sailors have been allotted
quarters ashore. To really appreciate this you have to realize that surface
sailors who are single have been forced to live aboard ship, even when in
port. It basically means that you have no life. Recently the navy has begun
to extend this arrangement to surface sailors, providing quarters on a space
available basis to single sailors in home ports.

Also, one should not forget that the members of navies other than the U.S.
Navy live in much better conditions. German sailors have six person rooms
for the most junior people and four person rooms for more senior enlisteds.
(Not to mention being wet when in port.)

There is also a basic difference between any kind of Earth seagoing ship and
a Traveller spacecraft. Except in wartime most surface sailors spend only
weeks at sea between port visits. There are typically years between
deployments, which are 6 months long and are generally a matter of traveling
from port to port, with no more than a few weeks actually at sea at any one
time. (There is a certain difference now, but we are at war now, so I would
not call this typical.)

If the Traveller fleets follow the sailing pattern of the ships of the days
of sail, then it is likely that they spend years away from their home ports,
not weeks. In the age of sail sailors, in the British navy anyway, were
recruited by press gang, because it was such awful work that no one wanted
to do it. They were the dregs of society.

But the Traveller navies, like the wet navies of today require sophisticated
technologically savvy crewmen. Not the kind of people that would want to
live under conditions that exist on even today's ships (one reason the U.S.
Navy has so much trouble keeping people.)

One of the easiest, and cheapest in the long run, method of keeping high
quality people is to give them decent living conditions. It is common on
merchant ships today for seamen to live in the kind of berthing used on
Traveller ships. It is my contention that by the middle of this century U.S.
Navy ships will have similar berthing, if only because that's they only way
they will be able to compete for the high quality technical people they
need.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 08:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 07:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <20020421150430.A6895@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <155.cb10b0b.29f34bc7@aol.com>
 <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <20020421115033.A6391@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020420203948.009f99f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421071925.009f7600@mindspring.com>

At 03:04 PM 4/21/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
> > Because in this case the Jgd exist only in gas giant atmospheres,
> > are completely unfathomable to humans, and have no real motivations
> > that humans can figure out.

>But seriously, I don't see anything there that makes them more
>suitable as NPC material than as PC.

The inability and lack of desire for contact with other races? Other than 
their unique environment, the Jgd are pretty boring.

> > Playing a group of 10 meter spheres that die quickly on most
> > Imperial worlds and are allergic to jump would be a bit boring.
>
>Doesn't sound too bad to me.  Besides, if they're suitable as an NPC
>race, why aren't they suitable as PCs?  If they're boring for players
>to run, presumably they're just as boring for the GM.  If they're
>incomprehensible for players, they're just as incomprehensible for the
>GM.

Remember the Star Trek episode "Is There In Truth No Beauty?"

http://www.treasure-troves.com/startrek/IsThereInTruthNoBeauty.html

The Medusan ambassador is a good example of a race that makes an 
interesting one-time encounter, or an occassional source of odd 
adventures.  Likewise the Puppeteers in Larry Niven's Known Space 
series.  What they put Beowulf Shaeffer through...

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 08:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Sun Apr 21 07:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
Message-ID: <F89TT0rafoBdDvwGB9g0001145a@hotmail.com>

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
<P>
<DIV>&lt;snip several hundred thousand exceptionally vile words&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Leonard Erickson sent me&nbsp;a link that explained how to correct things. If I did it right this should be in rtf.</DIV>
<DIV>Sorry about the html. I didn't realize this idiotic ISP program was doing that.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></P></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <a href='http://g.msn.com/1HM205401/l'>Click Here</a><br></html>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 09:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Sun Apr 21 08:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421071925.009f7600@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204210955580.27392-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
> The Medusan ambassador is a good example of a race that makes an 
> interesting one-time encounter, or an occassional source of odd 
> adventures.  Likewise the Puppeteers in Larry Niven's Known Space 
> series.  What they put Beowulf Shaeffer through...

Limiting their suitability to a single encounter alone isn't a reason to
disallowing them as PCs.  They may only be suited to a one-shot adventure
or short mini-campaign, but what's wrong with that?

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Sun Apr 21 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204210955580.27392-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <010401c1e94c$9dd5b7e0$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

If you want to use them as a pc race fine, but I find for the most part most
races make better npc then pc, . YMMV
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Carl Kettler" <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
> Limiting their suitability to a single encounter alone isn't a reason to
> disallowing them as PCs.  They may only be suited to a one-shot adventure
> or short mini-campaign, but what's wrong with that?
>
> Gregory Kettler
> "Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
> --Dave, KODT
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 10:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 09:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <F89TT0rafoBdDvwGB9g0001145a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E83217.57B30%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/21/02 7:48 AM, Samuel Weiss at samwise1@msn.com wrote:

<snip several hundred thousand exceptionally vile words>
 
Leonard Erickson sent me a link that explained how to correct things. If I
did it right this should be in rtf.
Sorry about the html. I didn't realize this idiotic ISP program was doing
that.
 


But plain text would be better.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 10:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Sun Apr 21 09:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
References: <B8E83217.57B30%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>

Or maybe not ...

*SIGH*

Sorry yet again. Is this one right?


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 10:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Sun Apr 21 09:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
References: <B8E83217.57B30%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <014201c1e951$11ada520$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Hi Sam I didn't; know you where here to we really have to stop meeting like
this :)
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message -----
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@msn.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks


> Or maybe not ...
>
> *SIGH*
>
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?
>
>
> Sam
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 11:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 21 10:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8E83E61.57B3B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/21/02 9:19 AM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@msn.com wrote:

> Or maybe not ...
> 
> *SIGH*
> 
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?
> 

You got it.  Thanks very much!!

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 11:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Sun Apr 21 10:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
References: <20020421100312.13099279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC2FEED.CA035AA0@together.net>

> From: MurfNMurf@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 18:55:03 EDT
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Alien Help
> 
>    Hi,
>    Looking for alien stats for Traveller (CT/MT) the other day on the WWWeb,
> I ran across a pretty extensive (and frankly, kind of frightening as well)
> list of Traveller-related aliens, and was wondering if folks might be able to
> help me out with stats for several species that looked pretty interesting.
>    Adduxar: Carnivorous reptilians from the Zhodani book.
>    Jgd-ll-Jadg: Some type of gaseous entity from JTAS 17.

	There's an expanded write-up of these creatures in GT:AR4. Along with a
number of other CT aliens and a few new one. 

>    Sambiqys: Red-zoned Androids from JTAS 24.
>
	I'm not sure where the Sambiqys were written up, but it's not in JTAS
24. In either case 101 Robots has a short writeup:

664x2-A4-PQ522-MFE7(P) Cr38,356,000 840kg
Fuel=155.225 Duration=21.56 TL=17
50/122 (mesh)
4 Med Tentacles, Head (10%), 2 eyes (+2 passive IR), 2 ears, Voder, 2
olfactory sensors, Touch sensors (+extra sensitivity), taste sensor, 2
Power interfaces, brain interface, TL17 holo recorder (3D) Electronic
circuit protection, Admin-4, Emotion Stimulation. 

	If you can read the Book8 formats that should give you a start on these
as characters. 	


-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 11:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Sun Apr 21 10:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <E16yrdg-0001rp-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <DAV501sDWek3BGGtyr300019c9b@hotmail.com>

John Snead wrote,

>I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and
that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually
fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine
sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas
all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.<

Oooohhhh ....
Someone who thinks Rand is as worthless as I do. Cool!
:-P

>ObTrav, in several hundred years it would be interesting to note
how various organizations have changed. A Feudal Technocracy
could easily go from being a technocratic meritocracy to being a
static and rigid system of technological oriented castes and still
maintain the same designation.<

Or like the Imperium itself?
:)

Or even more, consider how a change in social standards over a span of 20
years could cause people to question the government designations.  Likewise
with historical revisions.
How much would it take for <insert target leader here> to shift between
Charismatic and Non-Charismatic Dictator, or even from simply head of state
under a Representative Democracy to one of the above?


Sam
(My email is reconfigured, I have 5 minutes, and now the real suffering
begins! :-P)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Help
Message-ID: <19f.10e2de7.29f47482@aol.com>

--part1_19f.10e2de7.29f47482_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thanks for the info :)
Ken



--part1_19f.10e2de7.29f47482_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Thanks for the info :)
<BR>Ken
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_19f.10e2de7.29f47482_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 15:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Apr 21 14:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
In-Reply-To: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>
References: <006701c1e8f2$fe4be180$1db18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3cc5281d.3577404@post.demon.co.uk>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:

>The Australian army in WWI used four battalion infantry brigades.  =
Cavalry
>brigades were three regiments (battalions) per brigade.  I'm pretty sure
>this was British practice, too. =20

Yes.  To be specific, composition of a British infantry division
altered as follows:

pre-war: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions (with 24 Vickers guns)
4 brigades of artillery (54 18lb, 18 4.5", 4 60lb)
2 Co. engineers, 1 Sq. cavalry, 1 Co. cyclists, support elements

mid-1915: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions (with 48 Vickers guns)
4 brigades of artillery (54 18lb, 8 4.5")
2 Co. engineers, 1 Sq. cavalry, 1 Co. cyclists, support elements

Sept 1916: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions, a trench mortar battery
and a machine gun company (with 144 Lewis guns, 48 Vickers guns and 8
3" mortars)
4 brigades of artillery (48 18lb, 16 4.5")
4 trench mortar batteries (12 2", 4 9.45")
2-3 Co. engineers, pioneer battalion, support elements.

Apr 1917: 3 brigades each of 4 battalions, a trench mortar battery and
a machine gun company (with 192 Lewis guns, 48 Vickers guns and 8 3"
mortars)
2 brigades of artillery (36 18lb, 12 4.5")
4 trench mortar batteries (12 2", 4 9.45")
1 machine gun company (16 Vickers guns)
2-3 Co. engineers, pioneer battalion, support elements.

Oct 1918: 3 brigades each of 3 battalions and a trench mortar battery
(with 324 Lewis guns and 8 3" mortars)
2 brigades of artillery (36 18lb, 12 4.5")
2 trench mortar batteries (12 2")
1 machine gun battalion (64 Vickers guns)
2-3 Co. engineers, pioneer battalion, support elements.

In short, a steady increase in the number of machine guns available to
the troops.  While the amount of artillery available at division and
lower levels tended to decrease, that's because it was taken into
general reserve to be deployed en masse for specific offensives -
something that made sense given the static nature of the Western
=46ront.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 15:32:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Apr 21 14:32:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Drive Questions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419164150.01eb9740@mail.qrc.com>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA226EA@USCHM203> <5.1.0.14.2.20020419164150.01eb9740@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3cc62d61.4925172@post.demon.co.uk>

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> writes:

>In every other case that is covered by the rules, attempting to do=20
>something unusual with a jump drive causes one of three results: either=20
>nothing happens, the ship misjumps, or is catastrophically destroyed.  =
Any=20
>of these would be appropriate, and destruction sounds most likely to me =
as=20
>well.

4)  you enter jump^2 space, where you spend z weeks and re-emerge into
normal jump-space z*Jn parsecs from your starting location.
Unfortunately, the value of the constant z is unknown... (but probably
extremely high.  Unless it's the square root of minus one or some such
value).  Also, the mapping of J^2-space onto j-space is not the same
as that of j-space to n-space...

5)  You appear at the centre of the universe before the throne of
Great Azathoth himself.

Stephen
tekeli-li...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 17:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Apr 21 16:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
References: <20020421190105.C74D2279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c1e989$71a64d00$81b18b90@computer>

> From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
> The British stuck with their 12 battalion divisions until 1918 when
> combined attrition of four years of trench warfare finally forced them
> to adopt the triangular division as well (not to get more divisions,
> they just didn't have the manpower to keep the existing divisions at
> 12 battalions any more). I think the Australians and Canadians also
> moved to the triangular formation at around the same time.
> However the New Zealanders stuck with the older 12 battalion
> organisation right till the end of the war.

OK.  That makes sense.

In WWII, Australian divisions were originally going to be organised with
four battalion brigades, but this was changed to bring them in line with
British practice.  I'd have to check the details, but I think the first
division raised (the 6th Division) was actually formed along these lines.
The battalions left over from the reduction to three battalion brigades were
assigned to the 7th or 8th division.  Like I said, I would need to check the
details...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 17:47:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 16:47:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421234639.35407.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Does the phrase "Follow Me" mean anything to you, oh
future leader of men?  :P
END QUOTE
I'm a traditionilist. It means pretty much the same as
"I'm right behind you" (twelve miles that is) ;P

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 17:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 16:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421235144.21334.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
God help them.  I'm almost of the opinion that
officers should be enlisted first.  Even academy
cadets should complete 2 years before going to the
academy.
END QUOTE

I was joking! I'm not that sort of person. I in fact
believe they should do away with the whole enlited vs
officer thing! I mean it was orignally away to make
sure the nobles (no matter how imcompetent) where
never under the command of an commoner. I think every
one should start as private and take a test to be
accepted into a command academy. 

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:00:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:00:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421235938.36529.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Nah, he's just a Butter Bar wanna be. Like Lt. Gorman
in Aliens. Hey Top, you take the men in, I'll just
watch the camera's, and make sure my boots don't get
scuffed, oh, and once your in the meat grinder I'll 
be here to lead you out. Yes Sir, were on it. Vasquez
you take point.

Turokan
END QUOTE

In Australia we have pips! Not bars. ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
Message-ID: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>

I had to go with AOL 7.0 because my copy of the last AOL software that DIDN'T 
make getting rid of HTML codes a pain vanished with the HD crash of a few 
weeks ago. Regular e-mail isn't hard, but quoting text is now a major hassle, 
and I am more than a little annoyed.

This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much extraneous 
garbage?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:12:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:12:35 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <81.1a9d8d8c.29f4af3c@aol.com>

Samuel D. Weiss Said:
>>John Snead wrote,
>>
>>I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and
>>that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it actually
>>fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine
>>sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas
>>all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.<
>>
>Oooohhhh ....
>Someone who thinks Rand is as worthless as I do. Cool!

Without knowing how worthless you think Rand is, I've never been especially 
fond of her writing either

This is a test to see if quoted text works without extraneous garbage.

LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <20020422001538.87316.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Never, ever sign someone up as an infantryman, and
then tell him halfway through his term that "because
you were a programmer in civilian life, we're going to
make you one here, because we're short programmers. 
We don't know who assigned you here, but we've no use
for you otherwise.".
END QUOTE

Which is why I am not going to mention my major
(software engineering to the army). "Computer sir?, I
don't recognise that command sir!". Im going to be a
programmer in civilian life the last thing I want to
do in the army is program. Now running around with a
huge pack in the mud! Sounds like fun ;)

James


=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
In-Reply-To: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220957010.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi LKW:

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> I had to go with AOL 7.0 because my copy of the last AOL software that DIDN'T
> make getting rid of HTML codes a pain vanished with the HD crash of a few
> weeks ago. Regular e-mail isn't hard, but quoting text is now a major hassle,
> and I am more than a little annoyed.
>
> This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much extraneous
> garbage?
>
> LKW

 Shows up in PINE 4.44 fine, no extra stuff. And yeah I <96 mega pulses
deleted for content> hate aol as well.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 18:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 17:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

"J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:

> Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
> eliminate poverty?

The government defines a poverty line.  People at and near that 
point pay no income taxes.  Anyone with an income greater than 
that pays a graduated tax, depending upon how far above it they 
are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the 
government (much like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any 
money in) to give them money equal to being at the poverty line.  

End result: no one in the nation has an income that is below the 
poverty line.  Also, the amount of taxes necessary would not be 
that high, especially since the entire welfare bureaucracy (which 
consumes a surprisingly high percentage of the money allocated to 
this sector of the government) would be instantly eliminated.

In the 1970s, this idea was either proposed or promoted by  
economist Milton Friedman and was touted as a libertarian 
proposal.  Sadly, libertarianism has changed significantly since 
them (IMHO, much for the worse).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <20413.122049.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Leonard:

 Catching up on the back log of mail.

On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
> Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system.
>
> The disk formats haven't changed (not the flopiy ones anyway) and the
> newer programs can generally read the data files from the older ones.

 You have more knowledge on the tech of the systems than I. All i am
reporting is what the average user, the "plug & pray" type, have told me
in the shop. Explaining all the problems they have with the system and
upgrades. Problems with reading disks and accessing older files. I was
told that it is possible to do the work. This by a man in his 3rd year of
computer Scicese at UofO. But he also said it took some programming and
hardware work. his explanation went above my head.

> FM (aka "single density") and MFM (aka "double density" and "high density").
>
> Most "modern" floppy controller chips can't read FM disks. But a lot of
> fairly recent ones can. For example, the Adaptec SCSI cards that
> include a floppy controller can.

 Accedentally tried to format a single density disk on my 1571 drive. In
short I have 4 of them to now to a manual head alignment job. My drives
contain the micro processor. Not certain if new cards installed would work
or be possible. Though I do remember that the first HD for the C= being
the Lt. Kernal used MFM hard drives.

> With some easily available software I can read TRS-80 floppies on my
> PC. To read Commodore or Apple GCR disks, I'd have to install the old
> CopyIIPC deluxe option board in one of my systems.

 What about emulators? i hear on some of the lists and newsgroups about
Vice 1.8 as the best out there for reading C= disk images. The .D64, .D71
and the .D81 image copy style. is this what you mean or is the above
something that I am not familiar with at this time?

> PCjr floppies used the same format as the PC.
>
> No idea what the X-box uses.

 I may be wrong, but I was told that besides the disk media. That some of
the Os is put on the disk in what I know as track and sectors. I was told
that the track and sectors for this information change with the upgrades.
Therefore this is a reason why newer systems have trouble or can't read
the older disks. This problem happened when a friend of mine tried to copy
his wifes 286 disks to the hard drive on his vin95v4 <IIRC> it wrote new
os on the original disks. how this happened or the exact things done I
don'T know. just that both of them were stock users. No programming
understanding.

> What gets fun is when you need to read things like 8" floppies or the
> whacko Amstrad 3" (*not* 3.5"!) floppies. Or cassette tapes, or stringy
> floppies or other weird media.

 <grins> Recently saw a store selling the 8" ones as part of a side walk
sale. They were surprised when I went for 50 still sealed DS/Dd 5 1/4 soft
sectored disks. FWIW Verbatium has a site up where they are selling these
disks. including the 8" and some other weird sizes I don't remember.
Speaking of cassette tapes. That is a project that I am working upon.
Converting my tape collection to disk. Not an easy one. But possible. Not
certain what you mean by stringy floppies. But I do remember in college
paper tape and those <name escapes me> punch cards.

> I once had to recover a program by reading paper tape by *hand*.

 That was a test in 74 at the class I had to take. Fun isn't it?? <BG>

> I have a DOS program called HTMSTRIP that takes HTML and produces a
> reasonably formatted plain text file. It even puts in the "boxes" in
> tables.

 My Wave prg alows me to choice between a dial up to telnet or a direct
text based web browser. I can do better with the new beta version on
working with frames if I use the straight browser. Most of the time I use
the lynx for Inet web work. Takes most frames well. But not yet will
either do the boxes. My e-mail is with Pine 4.44 though the telnet.
Eventually I will use Qwkrr for my off line reader. Still sending via
telnet the packet to videocam. Generally it makes things smooth in
reading. Removing some inconsistencies and prompts me at the start of the
msg that it has done this job and that some charcters maynot be correct.
HTML though is not always corrected. At the best everything is in
underline. At the worse all commands are enclosed in "<xx>" in the msg.
Making inding the actual content almost impossible. I have yet to try w3m.
my SysAdmin tells me this is good for frames and forms.

> There's a DOS program that'll view many image formats, including .AVI
> and MPEG files, and play a lot of sound formats.

 The free beta test of JOS will allow me to see JPEG on scren while on
line. Also and here I am out of my experience, play Wave and RAW and some
form of streamlined MP something sound files. Right now I am considering
dl ing the plans for the new ethernet board for my C=.

> Well, the idea is that there need to be publicly available standards.
> Having multiple standards is merely inconvenient as long as the info
> on the file formats is available.

 That is a problem we have today the no standards since the other systems
like mine are still in use. Impossible to set a standard then without
causing a revolt of users of the non standard platforms. A good story idea
for a lower tech level world??

 Plot ideas are running rampant in my head. Wish I could read my
penmanship for the notes I am taking on this topic. So many worlds at so
many tech levels. Creating so many different platforms. The possibilities
for computer difficulties are almost endless. However I would think that
there are Imperial standards for navigation. Set probably by the ISS. Even
if emulators and converters have to be installed in the software or
hardware on the ship. Another part of the computer skill?

> The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
> either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
> to import and export files in those formats.

 That sounds nice on paper. However I can see resentment happening. Just
based on the little that we have not using windoze systems.  We face
discrimination and that builds resentment to hostility. In Traveller, on
frontiere worlds that are doing their own thing. This could grow into a
sense of "National" pride. Or the thought of being "forced" into
something. Still I suspect that there is something going on in the
computer line. Where the files are sent say from the x-boat to panet and
revers. Where it is translated to the usable format for the receptor of
the information.

> Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
> equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
> finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice.

 Myself, I am working on converting PET to geoWrite 2.1 then converting
the final output to Ascii for upload to the places I write for through the
Inet. I can do the revese and prefere to do all my writing in GeoWrite 2.1
Takes just a few minutes to convert back and forth. Perhaps that is a
thought for the Imperial mail at least. Though expanded for images and
text for the local systems.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <20020422001538.87316.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421173609.009ec3e0@mindspring.com>

At 10:15 AM 4/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Now running around with a
>huge pack in the mud! Sounds like fun ;)

Oh it is, for the first ten miles or so!

OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at the start of the 
road march, how much will it weigh after 25 miles cross-country through 
Korea in July?


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:06:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:06:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
In-Reply-To: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174048.009fa870@mindspring.com>

At 08:07 PM 4/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
>This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much extraneous
>garbage?

Check. free and clear.

If I ever have to change systems, I'm posting the Beowulf mayday as my test 
post.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:09:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:09:13 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020421235144.21334.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174146.009fba50@mindspring.com>

At 09:51 AM 4/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
>I was joking! I'm not that sort of person. I in fact
>believe they should do away with the whole enlited vs
>officer thing! I mean it was orignally away to make
>sure the nobles (no matter how imcompetent) where
>never under the command of an commoner.

Well, that's sort of true, but there is a very real reason for the gulf 
between officers and enlisted men.

In combat, and officers has to be able to order men to take actions that 
will almost certainly get them killed, and have those orders carried out 
without question. An officer has to be a rather remote figure of power, 
hence all the saluting and calling someone with bars on his collars  "Sir" 
even though he might be younger than you.

Officers also are the responsible ones.  When things go wrong, it is the 
officer's fault. That is an awesome responsibility, and they deserve 
a  little deference from us grunts.

I served under all three flavors of officer, ROTC, trade school, and 
OCS.  They all had their differences, but I'd rather be led a member of the 
Hudson High Alumni association than a guy doing his six years to pay off 
getting his degree in Marketing at Party U.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:13:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220927280.6440-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Sam:

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Samuel D. Weiss wrote:

> Or maybe not ...
>
> *SIGH*
>
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?

 Came across to me <ascii only> quite fine. No html or things I can't
read.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
Message-ID: <200204220112.ESJ04755@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry asks
>
>OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at 
>the start of the road march, how much will it weigh after 25 
>miles cross-country through Korea in July?
>

About the same as the Dragon, with spare round.

________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:18:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:18:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
Message-ID: <20020421.210932.-150737.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

> This is a test -- is this message showing up without too much 
> extraneous garbage?
> 
> LKW

I'm reading it fine as straight text.  Considering I use Juno (which
considers *anything* besides straight text as an evil abberation) I'd say
you're doing fine.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421173609.009ec3e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC36486.FE987F75@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 10:15 AM 4/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
> >Now running around with a
> >huge pack in the mud! Sounds like fun ;)
> 
> Oh it is, for the first ten miles or so!
> 
> OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at the start of the
> road march, how much will it weigh after 25 miles cross-country through
> Korea in July?

23 pounds, which is about half as much as that damnable M40 protective
mask that keeps banging against your left thigh with each step.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:26:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Scheets)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:26:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <008801c1e978$f0b18e40$8e83bad0@computer2>

Robot cameras 'will predict crimes before they happen'

By learning behaviour patterns, computers could soon alert police when an
unmanned camera sees 'suspicious' activity
By Andrew Johnson
21 April 2002

Computers and CCTV cameras could be used to predict and prevent crime before
it happens.

Scientists at Kingston University in London have developed software able to
anticipate if someone is about to mug an old lady or plant a bomb at an
airport.

It works by examining images coming in from close circuit television cameras
(CCTV) and comparing them to behaviour patterns that have already programmed
into its memory.

The software, called Cromatica, can then mathematically work out what is
likely to happen next. And if it is likely to be a crime it can send a
warning signal to a security guard or police officer.

Full story at:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=287307


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:34:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:34:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <20020422001538.87316.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002301c1e99e$0f4d18e0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Ramsay" <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au>
> Which is why I am not going to mention my major
> (software engineering to the army). "Computer sir?, I
> don't recognise that command sir!"

Just as long as you don't say "Computer sir? Bad Command or Filename sir!"

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Apr 21 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <81.1a9d8d8c.29f4af3c@aol.com>
References: <81.1a9d8d8c.29f4af3c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8qq6cukej81v0jdgtshfhj82sl6acr8foc@4ax.com>

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 20:11:40 EDT, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>Samuel D. Weiss Said:
>>>John Snead wrote,
>>>
>>>I'm not absolutely certain Heinlein was one, Rand was close, and
>>>that says little good about libertarians - although I do find it =
actually
>>>fairly impressive that Ayn Rand managed to so perfectly combine
>>>sophomoric pretentiousness, terrible writing, and foolishly vile ideas
>>>all together in her wretched novels, definitely an impressive feat.<
>>>
>>Oooohhhh ....
>>Someone who thinks Rand is as worthless as I do. Cool!
>
>Without knowing how worthless you think Rand is, I've never been =
especially=20
>fond of her writing either
>
>This is a test to see if quoted text works without extraneous garbage.

The quoting seems to have worked pretty well from this side of things.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 21:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 20:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020421224306.00a87f00@rollanet.org>

So this is the reason that starports are on the planet's surface and 
highports aren't as common.

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%7B1F54AEED-A34B-411B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D

--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 21:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Sun Apr 21 20:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 05:38:11PM -0700
References: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020421214459.A958@4dv.net>

On Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 05:38:11PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the government (much
> like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any money in) to give them
> money equal to being at the poverty line.

All that'd do is devalue the dollar until the poverty line in dollars
is once again below the poverty line in fact.  It's a better scheme
than the current welfare regime, and may indeed work rather more
slowly to eviscerate the economy, but the end result'd be the same.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Security-wise, NT is a server with a 'kick me' sign taped to it.
                                                --Peter Gutmann

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 22:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 21:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <20020422041531.74282.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Robot cameras 'will predict crimes before they happen'
By learning behaviour patterns, computers could soon
alert police when an unmanned camera sees 'suspicious'
activity
END QUOTE

Until we develop AI or very very sophisticated system
this would be useless in the real world. How does a
computer now whether a person is reaching for a gun or
there wallet? Answer they can't. All it can do is
determine that an image of a person looks like its
reaching for something. If they stopped wasting money
on tech dreams such as this actual humans could be
hired. And for a very long time into the future humans
(even the ones typically hired as security guards)
will have more reasoning ability than all the
computers in the world! Robotic security guards have
been in development since the 70's and no one has yet
to make one that is accurate and/or doesn't cost more
than the police budget for a small city.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 22:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Sun Apr 21 21:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules (OT about computers)
Message-ID: <20020422041947.44658.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Just as long as you don't say "Computer sir? Bad
Command or Filename sir!"
END QUOTE

Evil thought! 

EnlistedOS. "What hard drive sir?", "Sir, the private
doesn't know where that file is", "I don't know what
happened to the RAM, sir", "Sir, it was there the last
time I checked", "But sir the registry needed cleaning
sir".

very evil indeed.

James




=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 22:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Apr 21 21:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <3CC3930A.D2B8F94D@mail.cswnet.com>

Richard Wilson writes:
>So this is the reason that starports are on the planet's surface and 
>highports aren't as common.

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%7B1F54AEED-A34B-411B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D

JOY! Hydrogen wells! JOY! That will make the Downports in systems
without gas giants or other significant surface water so much easier to
deal with. I can see it now...

"168-1106 Arba/Lunion
A media advisor for Myers Mining and Manufacturing announced the
discovery of large subsurface hydrogen deposits....."

I can see the port director thinking about it now...

"No more stupid fuel blimps. No more running to the asteroid belt to
melt ice. No more begging Lanth for a refueling ship. No more...."

I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen Drilling Platform?
What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How exactly would one
extract it from the subsurface? Would there be any hazards?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 23:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 22:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <DAV643L0L4RShmw6Jxt00019cfa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20421.215401.3P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Or maybe not ...
>
> *SIGH*
>
> Sorry yet again. Is this one right?

Yep. Looks good.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 21 23:09:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 22:09:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Stupid Email Tricks
In-Reply-To: <F89TT0rafoBdDvwGB9g0001145a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20421.215246.9z1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
> <P>
> <DIV>&lt;snip several hundred thousand exceptionally vile words&gt;</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>Leonard Erickson sent me&nbsp;a link that explained how to correct 
> things. If I did it right this should be in rtf.</DIV>
> <DIV>Sorry about the html. I didn't realize this idiotic ISP program was 
> doing that.</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV><BR>Sam</DIV></P></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Join the world&#8217;s largest 
> e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <a 
> href='http://g.msn.com/1HM205401/l'>Click Here</a><br></html>

You don't want RTF either. You want "plain text" or "ASCII". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 00:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 23:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <20020421.230604.-125605.5.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:35:22 -0500 Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
writes:
>
> I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen Drilling Platform?
> What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How exactly would one
> extract it from the subsurface? Would there be any hazards?
> 

One word - Praxis!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 00:12:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 21 23:12:29 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
Message-ID: <20020421.230604.-125605.4.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:59:38 +1000 (EST) =?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=
<quakers_united@yahoo.com.au> writes:
> QUOTE
> Nah, he's just a Butter Bar wanna be. 
> 
> Turokan
> END QUOTE
> 
> In Australia we have pips! Not bars. ;)
> 
> James

That's fine James, in America it fits our Army OCS graduates fairly well.
Not the West Point grads. To me, if they can make it through West Point,
they've earned the respect of being called Sir.

Anyway Butter "pips" just don't sound good.

What do you call your OCS officers?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 00:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 21 23:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20421.220153.6l0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hoi Leonard:
>
>  Catching up on the back log of mail.
>
> On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
>> Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system.
>>
>> The disk formats haven't changed (not the flopiy ones anyway) and the
>> newer programs can generally read the data files from the older ones.
>
>  You have more knowledge on the tech of the systems than I. All i am
> reporting is what the average user, the "plug & pray" type, have told me
> in the shop. Explaining all the problems they have with the system and
> upgrades. Problems with reading disks and accessing older files. I was
> told that it is possible to do the work. This by a man in his 3rd year of
> computer Scicese at UofO. But he also said it took some programming and
> hardware work. his explanation went above my head.

Upgrading hardware can cause problems with almost any bit of hardware
in the system. A common problem when upgrading to the motherboards we
prefer is that the printer port won't work unless you know the right
way to force Windows to rescan for the hardware in the system. 

Most folks just give up and reinstall from scratch. 

Also, floppy drives *do* get out of alignment. 

But with windows, the first thing to suspect is that hardware manager
is loading drivers for a previous card or motherboard.

>> With some easily available software I can read TRS-80 floppies on my
>> PC. To read Commodore or Apple GCR disks, I'd have to install the old
>> CopyIIPC deluxe option board in one of my systems.
>
>  What about emulators? i hear on some of the lists and newsgroups about
> Vice 1.8 as the best out there for reading C= disk images. The .D64, .D71
> and the .D81 image copy style. is this what you mean or is the above
> something that I am not familiar with at this time?

I'm talking about reading actual floppies. The CopyIIPC board hooks
between the PC's floppy controller and the floppy drives. It lets you
read Mac & Commodore floppies.

>> PCjr floppies used the same format as the PC.
>>
>> No idea what the X-box uses.
>
>  I may be wrong, but I was told that besides the disk media. That some of
> the Os is put on the disk in what I know as track and sectors. I was told
> that the track and sectors for this information change with the upgrades.

Nope.

DOS and Windows use 512 byte sectors on floppies (and on most HDs). The
original 5.25" floppies used 40 tracks, with 8 sectors per track.
Single or double sided. (for 160k and 320k per floppy)

Later that was upped to 9 sectors per track, giving 180k and 360k per
floppy.

There were some odd formats used on a few proprietary versions of DOS,
especially on 3.5" disks before IBM introduced their version. 

Standard 3.5" DD disks are 720k. 80 track, 40 sectors per track.

The HD floppies were 80 track on both sizes of floppy. Which, btw,
caused mah\jor problems with writing to 5.25" DD floppies on HD drives...

1.2M 5.25" floppies were 16 sectors per track, 80 track.
1.4 meg 3.5" floppies were 18 sectors per track, 80 track.

But with the right commands you can read/write any MFM format that the
drive will support. 

It's the weird sector sizes, FM and GCR formats that you need to have
the right hardware for.

> Therefore this is a reason why newer systems have trouble or can't read
> the older disks.

Ok, Windows will clobber *non*-DOS disks, and some "special" dos disks
because it checks to see if disks have been changed by writing a made
up string to a location on the floppie normal used for an ID string
used to identify various OEM versions of DOS. This makes the disks
unreadable on the original system.

Never stick install disks from older software, or things like BIOS
upgrade disks into a box running windows without write protecting the floppy.

> This problem happened when a friend of mine tried to copy
> his wifes 286 disks to the hard drive on his vin95v4 <IIRC> it wrote new
> os on the original disks. how this happened or the exact things done I
> don'T know. just that both of them were stock users. No programming
> understanding.

Trust me, *they* did it. Not the OS.

Either the alignment on the drives doiffered and it asked if he wanted
to format the disks, and he said yes, or he did something else stupid. 

You see, without any special commands at all, I copied 100 floppies from
an XT system to directories on my HD and then burned a CD for him. 

I had a bit more trouble with the HD...

>> What gets fun is when you need to read things like 8" floppies or the
>> whacko Amstrad 3" (*not* 3.5"!) floppies. Or cassette tapes, or stringy
>> floppies or other weird media.
>
>  <grins> Recently saw a store selling the 8" ones as part of a side walk
> sale. They were surprised when I went for 50 still sealed DS/Dd 5 1/4 soft
> sectored disks. FWIW Verbatium has a site up where they are selling these
> disks. including the 8" and some other weird sizes I don't remember.

8" floppies are *expensive* now, because so few folks use them anymore.

> Speaking of cassette tapes. That is a project that I am working upon.
> Converting my tape collection to disk. Not an easy one. But possible. Not
> certain what you mean by stringy floppies. But I do remember in college
> paper tape and those <name escapes me> punch cards.

Stringy flopies were a sort of high speed cassette. They used a credit
card sized endless loop tape (rather like an 8-track, but smaller). The
drives were available for several systems, Apple, TRS-80, etc.

>> Well, the idea is that there need to be publicly available standards.
>> Having multiple standards is merely inconvenient as long as the info
>> on the file formats is available.
>
>  That is a problem we have today the no standards since the other systems
> like mine are still in use. Impossible to set a standard then without
> causing a revolt of users of the non standard platforms. A good story idea
> for a lower tech level world??

You are suffering from the delusion that new standards are required to
be usable on "obsolete" equipment. Or even on brands of equipment other
than those of the outfit setting the standard.

>  Plot ideas are running rampant in my head. Wish I could read my
> penmanship for the notes I am taking on this topic. So many worlds at so
> many tech levels. Creating so many different platforms. The possibilities
> for computer difficulties are almost endless. However I would think that
> there are Imperial standards for navigation. Set probably by the ISS. Even
> if emulators and converters have to be installed in the software or
> hardware on the ship. Another part of the computer skill?

You have to remember that most lower tech worlds aren't inventing their
tech. They are upgrading to *existing* tech used on other worlds. Or
they have chosen a locally sustainable tech level lower than that of
the world they were settled from.

After the Long night, you'd get a lot of independent stuff. But it'd be
unlikely to last more than a century or so. Uniform standards are just
too useful. And unless you are the highest tech world in the area,
you'll be replacing or upgrading your stuff in less than a century
anyway. 

>> The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
>> either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
>> to import and export files in those formats.
>
>  That sounds nice on paper. However I can see resentment happening. Just
> based on the little that we have not using windoze systems.  We face
> discrimination and that builds resentment to hostility. In Traveller, on
> frontiere worlds that are doing their own thing. This could grow into a
> sense of "National" pride. Or the thought of being "forced" into
> something.

I think you are confused here. I'm talking about data formats. That's
not the same as stuff like spreadsheets and other "software specific"
formats. 

The only reason you wouldn't be able to import/export stuff in a
"universal" data format would be if your equipment just plain wasn't up
to handling the *data*. For example, it gets *really* hard to handle
multi-gigabyte files on an 8-bit system<g>

The one exception would be compression methods, where the "horsepower"
of the system can make it impossible to handle it on lower powered
systems.

Windows dominance and "universal" data exchange formats are only
loosely related. MS *wants* their stuff to be all that's used and tries
to make it hard to use "foreign" formats (or makes changes to break
formats so the MS version can read files from other software but can't
be read on the other platforms).

> Still I suspect that there is something going on in the
> computer line. Where the files are sent say from the x-boat to panet and
> revers. Where it is translated to the usable format for the receptor of
> the information.

It shouldn't require translation *at all* is my point. GIFs don't need
to be translated. ASCII text only needs translation on systems that
don't support it (and BTW, Commodore was incredibly *stupid* in not
supporting ASCII when they designed the PET the standard had been
around since 1968!!)

>> Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
>> equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
>> finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice.
>
>  Myself, I am working on converting PET to geoWrite 2.1 then converting
> the final output to Ascii for upload to the places I write for through the
> Inet. I can do the revese and prefere to do all my writing in GeoWrite 2.1
> Takes just a few minutes to convert back and forth. Perhaps that is a
> thought for the Imperial mail at least. Though expanded for images and
> text for the local systems.

Again, most tech will *not* be native except in small areas or certain
time periods.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <010401c1e94c$9dd5b7e0$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic

Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.

Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
<grin>

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:26:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:26:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
In-Reply-To: <20020421.230604.-125605.5.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAMEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
> >
> > I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen 
> > ? Drilling Platform?
> > What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How 
> > exactly would one> extract it from the subsurface? 
> > Would there be any hazards?
> 
> One word - Praxis!

Um, sorry ?

What does Piaget's term for a child's system of coordinated 
and deliberate movements acquired during the sensory- motor 
stage of development have to do with hydrogen drillling ? 

Or, for that matter, what does the term for the right of 
a Camarilla Prince to rule his city have to do with hydrogen 
drilling ?

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:28:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:28:47 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote :
> The government defines a poverty line.
> People at and near that  point pay no income taxes.
> Anyone with an income greater than that pays a
> graduated tax, depending upon how far above it
> they are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets
> money from the government (much like a tax refund
> but w/o having to pay any money in) to give them
> money equal to being at the poverty line.
>
> End result: no one in the nation has an income that is
> below the poverty line.

And almost no one in the counry has an after tax income that is
much above the poverty line either.

> Also, the amount of taxes necessary
> would not be  that high,

Oh yes it is. You should try living in New Zealand.
20% of the country pay for 80% of it.
The remaining 20% pay their own way.

I'm paying about 40% of my income in income tax alone.
Add onto that sales tax, local government taxes, etc, etc.
and its approaching 60% of my income in tax.

And I still have to pay health insurance and tuition fees on
top of that because the state systems suck for everything
except emergency surgery.

> especially since the entire welfare
> bureaucracy (which consumes a surprisingly high
> percentage of the money allocated to this sector
> of the government) would be instantly eliminated.

And instead that bureaucracy would be duplicated
in the IRS. The bureaucracy for distributing the
money will be the same no matter who controls it.

They had the same idea over here, it increased the
bureaucracy, because although they had the IRD
refunding money to people, they _still_ had to have
the rest of the social welfare system to handle all
the other allowances, like the solo parent's benefit,
the "being Maori" benefit, the "being lesbian"
benefit, and the "being a Maori lesbian solo parent"
benefit, and the...

Sorry, it gets a bit much sometimes, especially when
they teach young girls that a "valid career choice" is
"solo parent".

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 02:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon Apr 22 01:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002, at 20:35, Frank Pitt wrote:

> They had the same idea over here, it increased the
> bureaucracy, because although they had the IRD
> refunding money to people, they _still_ had to have
> the rest of the social welfare system to handle all
> the other allowances, like the solo parent's benefit,
> the "being Maori" benefit, the "being lesbian"
> benefit, and the "being a Maori lesbian solo parent"
> benefit, and the...
> 

Frank, please be careful here.  I'd like not to be too inflammatory, 
but that statement came close to being racist and homophobic, 
two adjectives I really don't like.  If you need to say stuff like that, 
please keep it out of my mailbox.

Sincerely,
-- Rachel Kronick


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 03:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon Apr 22 02:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
In-Reply-To: <200204220112.ESJ04755@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPEENFEEAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Douglas Berry asks
>
>OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at
>the start of the road march, how much will it weigh after 25
>miles cross-country through Korea in July?
>

It is a well know fact that as one gets more tired gravity increases where
ever you happen to be. Thus equations for acceleration due to gravity need
to incorporate a fatigue factor.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 03:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 02:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020421214459.A958@4dv.net>
References: <20020420190105.E649B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020421214459.A958@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20020422193023.A3521@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> All that'd do is devalue the dollar until the poverty line in
> dollars is once again below the poverty line in fact.

Not at all.  That would only be true if the society is very close to
being unable to support its population at poverty line levels -- which
doesn't hold true for any modern industrialised nation.  It is already
demonstrated that rich countries *can* support large government
payments to a large proportion of their population -- all that would
change is who gets what.

Compared with Australia's current welfare system, for example, it
would greatly *encourage* employment and hence productivity of society
as a whole.  As it stands, anyone in Australia who gets even a
part-time job loses their unemployment payments, health care
concessions, rent assistance, eligibility for taxation breaks, and
other benefits -- and usually so do their spouses.  It's a great
disincentive -- in most cases, working 20 hours a week is a net *loss*
over not working at all.

I realise this anecdotal report doesn't refute your point, but it does
show that a much worse system than the one proposed can remain stable
for quite a while.  I don't think it will actually remain so for
political reasons, but economically it could certainly be sustained
indefinitely.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 03:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Apr 22 02:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <20020422093745.58225.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to
> Comics.
Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember
what he did.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 04:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 03:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz> <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020422202058.B3521@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rachel Kronick wrote:
> Frank, please be careful here.  I'd like not to be too inflammatory, 
> but that statement came close to being racist and homophobic, 

Blame it on the government, not Frank.  They're the ones making
decisions whether to hand out money based on the origin of your
ancestors.  I'm not sure whether he was being serious about the
"lesbian" benefit or not.  The solo parent benefit certainly is fact.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 06:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Mon Apr 22 05:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422202058.B3521@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002, at 20:20, Timothy Little wrote:

> Blame it on the government, not Frank.  They're the ones making
> decisions whether to hand out money based on the origin of your
> ancestors.  I'm not sure whether he was being serious about the
> "lesbian" benefit or not.  The solo parent benefit certainly is fact.
> 

I have little or no problem with the government's decisions regarding 
benefits; the problem was that Frank came very close to implicitly 
saying that being Maori or being lesbian was a bad thing.  His 
derisive tone, not the government's decision, was what irked me.

Okay, nothing further on this subject, at least from me.  

-- Rachel 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 06:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon Apr 22 05:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <E16zdOy-0005P5-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

Eventhough the people maintaining the airplane are all enlisted, some with =
only 6-8 weeks of training.

Beth (retired aircraft maintainer)


>   Pilots are officers because the military does not
> want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....even
> though the average fighter jock is holding essentially
> the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
> arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
> that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
> wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
> why........
>=20
>      MACessna


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon Apr 22 06:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <E16zdga-0005cC-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

It's OK, nothing to worry about.  Everything will be alright.  Why don't yo=
u follow these two gentlemen to a nice comfy room we have for you.  All pad=
ded and quiet.  Latter we will feed you.  We hope that you like pudding.  W=
e will even fit you with a new jacket as well.  <g,d,r>

Beth :)  (who also had had the same types of brain lock-downs)


>=20
> Mr. McKnight,
>=20
>      Thanks for the tip.  As way of illustrating my dearth of research=20
> skills, I've been mindlessly typing "TO&E" into various search engines.  =
I=20
> never thought to actually SPELL the acronym out!  Did I mention that my h=
ead=20
> comes to a point?
>=20
>      "Sorry for putting this on the web, but I can't contact you offlist=
=20
> without an email address.  :-)"
>=20
>      Yet another example of typical Whipsnadian brain flatulence.  I ask =
the=20
> kind folk of the TML to contact me off-List and then neglect to provide t=
he=20
> address.  Did I mention that my head comes to a point?
>      Thanks again for your help.
>=20
>=20
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 08:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Mon Apr 22 07:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
Message-ID: <F34UkSQDq1gFSlgOLN300005c8f@hotmail.com>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
> >
> >I never felt that my time spent as an enlisted man imbued me
> >with a special insight when I had my own platoon.
> >
>
>I think it's better to find out that someone can't delegate
>when they're an NCO (or even a corporal) rather then after we
>waste the money to make them an officer.
>
>Of course, I don't believe that leadership can be "taught".
>Talent in this area can be nurtured, grown, and refined, but
>never "taught".  If you can't lead or delegate to begin with,
>no amount of training is going to make a difference.
>
>One other area of "talent" that isn't easily remedied by
>training - tactical ability, and an ability to implement that
>tactical brilliance in your platoon. All platoon drills
>aside -- can you and your men really fight?  I remember
>watching platoons turning into indecisive, sleep-deprived
>zombies because no one in the chain of command, officer or
>nco, could get it all together.  There's nothing more
>unnerving to me than watching a platoon in training mill
>around in my scope when a few of them are hit with MILES
>gear.  Watching the men peep their heads in and out of the
>woodline like idiots.  Officers and NCOs scratching their
>heads and having a committee meeting to decide what to do.  I
>even remember a fat platoon sergeant ambling out into the
>open, looking up and down the danger space, trying to figure
>out where I was.
>
>Not all platoons were this bad, thank God.  But there were
>some like that.  And I put the blame not only on the LT, but
>on the NCOs in the platoon.

I want to give the list a URL...  
http://www2.inc.com/incmagazine/archives/04980541.html

This is an article titled "Corps Values" and it is about the USMC method of 
developing leaders at TBS, The Basic School.  It is an excellent read, and 
gives good insight to the qualities looked for in the screening and 
evaluating process that the US Marine Corps uses in developing leaders.

Obtrav:  All Marine Officers, in the entire force, attend one of the two or 
three basic schools in the Imperium....

Greg Smith
Capt  USMC (former)




Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 08:31:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 07:31:08 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <20020422093745.58225.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422092623.045e5950@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_476139==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Co-author of Dungeons and Dragons.  TSR did their level best to erase his 
name from D&D; Arneson had to sue for royalties; they settled out of court 
back in 1979.

Victor Raymond

At 02:37 AM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to
> > Comics.
>Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember
>what he did.
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
>http://games.yahoo.com/
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor J. Raymond
Department of Sociology, ISU
vraymond@iastate.edu
--=====================_476139==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
Co-author of Dungeons and Dragons.&nbsp; TSR did their level best to
erase his name from D&amp;D; Arneson had to sue for royalties; they
settled out of court back in 1979.<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
At 02:37 AM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what
Kirby was to<br>
&gt; Comics.<br>
Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember<br>
what he did.<br><br>
__________________________________________________<br>
Do You Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more<br>
<a href="http://games.yahoo.com/" eudora="autourl">http://games.yahoo.com/</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
TML mailing list<br>
TML@travellercentral.com<br>
<a href="http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml" eudora="autourl">http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml</a></blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times">Victor J. Raymond<br>
Department of Sociology, ISU<br>
vraymond@iastate.edu</font></html>

--=====================_476139==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 08:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Apr 22 07:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> End result: no one in the nation has an income that
> is below the 
> poverty line.  Also, the amount of taxes necessary
> would not be 
> that high, especially since the entire welfare
> bureaucracy (which 
> consumes a surprisingly high percentage of the money
> allocated to 
> this sector of the government) would be instantly
> eliminated.

The only way I can see such a system working is if you
ensure that those in the system are at least
attempting to be employed.  That, then, requires that
at least some of your welfare bureaucracy remain.  I'm
not suggesting that our current system is better, just
pointing out a possible problem.

Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is 10,000Cr. 
If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away 10,000
of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick.  In
my mind, this situation would produce three types of
people:

1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
     These people continue to earn as much as they
can, either (a) hoping that maybe the government will
not need all of it to pay for those not at poverty
level and that they will get to keep the extra
(doubtful) or (b) working because they are not
concerned with the money aspect of the work, but are
motivated by something else entirely.

2.  Workers (Small Minority)
     These people work to earn poverty level, and take
the rest of the time off.  They are of the type who
believe that labor is good and want to earn for their
family.

3.  Loafers (Very Large Majority)
     These people realize that no matter how much (or
how little) they work, they will get at least enough
money to subsist and if they earn more, the government
is likely to take it all from them.  They reason that
there is no reason to work.

Although I (and probably many others) may want to
think and believe we would be in categories 1 or 2,
how many of us love our work, or feel compelled to
work enough that we could withstand the temptation to
be in category 3?  Not many, I would guess.

Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were
making an attempt at earning a living, and there is
your welfare bureaucracy.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>; from rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net on Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 09:01:26PM +0800
References: <3CC440AA.7577.2DF54B1@localhost> <20020422202058.B3521@freeman.little-possums.net> <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020422085927.A5010@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 09:01:26PM +0800, Rachel Kronick wrote:
> 
> I have little or no problem with the government's decisions regarding 
> benefits; the problem was that Frank came very close to implicitly 
> saying that being Maori or being lesbian was a bad thing.

No--he implied that benefits solely because one is Maori or lesbian
are a bad thing.

> His derisive tone, not the government's decision, was what irked me.

The derision was for the government's decision.

Sheesh, I cannot believe I'm defending someone I've killfiled.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Exodus will never disconnect a spammer.  By the time the complaints
reach a level adequate to persuade them, the small-arms fire will
prevent their admins from reaching the servers --clifto, in nanae

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:02:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:02:21 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204221459.g3MExjP00155@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Rupert 
...
>>   Arguably this applied in certain periods of 
>> Roman history, and perhaps in some other classical
>> armies (where maybe only members of the right
>> classes might act as commanders, but far from all
>> of those eligible would fight except as ordinary
>> soldiers).
>
>True. And in theory the Athens so famour for its democracy didn't have 
>an officer class/caste, etc. However in practice only those born of 
>wealthy and influential families would be appointed, as with Rome 
>(which is why I said there weren't any I knew of).
>
>However it's probably worth noting that in these armies (especially the 
>Roman one of the late Republic and early Empire) most of the positions 
>we'd consider appropriate for officers were filled by Centurions and 
>their superiors, all of whom were 'from the ranks'. There were officers 
>above them who weren't from the ranks, but they were few and far 
>between (I seem to recall there being none until Legion level, at which 
>point there was the CO and several 'staff officers', etc.). Of course 
>the rank structure was quite flat by modern western standards, too.

  That's why I went with "arguably" - it can be presented either way,
with the big issue being whether some of those positions (eg, a Roman
centurion) were officers or NCO's. By the social standards of the
non-professionals in command (& staff) at Legion level they were only
commoners for almost all purposes, but the Legion could sooner function
without any of those patricians or equites than it could with even half
of the centurionate absent.

  Given the role of the army in political strife in the later Empire,
maybe the empire would have functioned better without any of those
classes in the legions :|

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: )$(%*&#$ AOL
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174048.009fa870@mindspring.com>
References: <cf.1605b205.29f4ae5c@aol.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020421174048.009fa870@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020422170728.7ba62ef6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> Check. free and clear.
> 
> If I ever have to change systems, I'm posting the Beowulf mayday as my
test 
> post.

This is Free PC Beowulf
pinging anyone...
Mayday, Mayday... we are under attack...
hard drive is gone...
serial port number one not responding...
Mayday... losing system stability fast...
calling anyone... please help...
This is Free PC Beowulf

<message repeats>

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 09:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Apr 22 08:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changes to First In rules
In-Reply-To: <000d01c1e7bb$b9afeea0$0f01a8c0@terry>
References: <20020316213935.3edca0b2.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <000d01c1e7bb$b9afeea0$0f01a8c0@terry>
Message-ID: <20020422171232.3a3ba7ef.jenry023@student.liu.se>

tmixon wrote:
> The ratio is wrong. The standard star distribution is 4+ on 1d6. That
> means an average of 640 systems per sector. So this one is actually 1.28
> per sector.

Oops, my mistake.

<snip>
> If you want the ratios on one per sector or one every 7.5 sectors, the
> ratios will need to change.

Right, thanks.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <F34UkSQDq1gFSlgOLN300005c8f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204221040090.12612-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Andrew MacLintock wrote:
> Obtrav:  All Marine Officers, in the entire force, attend one of the two or 
> three basic schools in the Imperium....

Is that realistic?  Given the cost of shipping a candidate across a
sector or two, I'd think the Imperium would prefer the expense of running
more schools so that one would be closer to home.
Great link, btw, though that's coming from someone who doesn't quite see
military service in his future.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How Mesons are Created
In-Reply-To: <20020420121558.A5360@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019491952.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Aha, so we have magically targeted changes in the rules of quantum
> > mechanics.
> 
> Yes, that's the one :)

Ok, just checking.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
Message-ID: <20020422.091436.-170613.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:35:16 +1200 "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> > <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
> > >
> > > I'm so happy. Can somebody gearhead a Hydrogen 
> > > ? Drilling Platform?
> > > What a minute. Would you drill for Hydrogen? How 
> > > exactly would one> extract it from the subsurface? 
> > > Would there be any hazards?
> > 
> > One word - Praxis!
> 
> Um, sorry ?

Praxis - Klingon moon which blew up in ST-VI The Undiscovered Country.

Due to over mining, and poor safety prtocols.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019492558.5758.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
> "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:
> 
> > Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
> > eliminate poverty?
> 
> The government defines a poverty line.  People at and near that 
> point pay no income taxes.  Anyone with an income greater than 
> that pays a graduated tax, depending upon how far above it they 
> are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the 
> government (much like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any 
> money in) to give them money equal to being at the poverty line.  

Not quite; one idea behind negative income tax as I'm aware of it is that it's
supposed to eliminate the welfare effect where by getting a job, your income
doesn't improve.  Thus, if the poverty line is $10,000/year and you made less
than that, tax would be something like 50% of income - $5,000, so if you made
$2,000/year, your taxes would be -$4,000/year.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Know Your Men, Your Business, and Yourself (long)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0204221040090.12612-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019492780.113.ajackson@ping>

Gregory Carl Kettler writes:
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Andrew MacLintock wrote:
> > Obtrav:  All Marine Officers, in the entire force, attend one of the two
> > or  three basic schools in the Imperium....
> 
> Is that realistic? 

Sure.  It's a distributed school; you just have to realize that academy at
Regina and the academy at Dingir are the same school ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEAIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Frank Pitt wrote:

> Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> 
> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
> 
> Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
> <grin>
> 
I'd have to agree.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422085927.A5010@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220948240.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Rachel wrote:
>
> > His derisive tone, not the government's decision, was what irked me.
> 
> The derision was for the government's decision.

I thought so, too.  You don't get much more anti-homophobic than I am, but
I don't think being gay should get you money from the government.  
 
> Sheesh, I cannot believe I'm defending someone I've killfiled.

I hate it when that happens too, Robert.

Kiri :) 

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 10:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon Apr 22 09:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <OF5BF2A073.349D1856-ON85256BA3.005C2CDE@pheaa.org>





>> Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
>> > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
>>
>> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
>>
>> Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
>> <grin>
>>
>I'd have to agree.

Please forgive my stupidity but who or what is Shooter?







From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 11:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Mon Apr 22 10:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1ea22$d25c5a60$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Paul Walker
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 07:41
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] RAH and libertarianism

Although I (and probably many others) may want to
think and believe we would be in categories 1 or 2,
how many of us love our work, or feel compelled to
work enough that we could withstand the temptation to
be in category 3?  Not many, I would guess.

Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were
making an attempt at earning a living, and there is
your welfare bureaucracy.

Paul
------------------------------------------------------------

Put me in group 3.  Its not so much I hate working, its that nothing you
do nowadays makes any difference in your employment.  I've worked for
Kyocera, SHE, Hewlett-Packard, Agilent and AT&T and they are all the
same - use you until they no longer feel they need you, then dump you.

Yes, I am currently unemployed again.  AT&T a couple of years back was
worried that a rival ISP was coming in and they knew their customer
service sucked.  So they started hiring in-house technicians and toned
down their contractors.  Well Comcast basically merged with AT&T and
Time/Warner has no plans to compete here.

AT&T found itself sitting on a de facto monopoly, at least in the
Vancouver/Portland area, so they took it upon themselves to be rid of
their in-house employees and went back to the lack-luster contractors.
I and 15 of my co-workers found themselves not laid off but outright
fired for all sorts of stupid reasons.

I gave this company 110% like I always do as an employee, but here I am
again, unemployed.  There were days I started at 7am and got home after
midnight because I put the customers first and myself last.  Now I have
nothing to show for it.  HP and Agilent did similar things but at least
had the decency to lay us off.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do now with the job market so already
over-bloated with laid off workers.  I'm just tired of working for
companies that have absolutely no loyalty to their employees.

If anyone in the Portland/Vancouver area that is on this list hears
about any job that could use someone good with computers or telecom,
please email me off-list.

Thanks!

( j-man@attbi.com )






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 11:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr 22 10:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220948240.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <20020422085927.A5010@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422104155.009f3ec0@mindspring.com>

At 09:49 AM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:

>I thought so, too.  You don't get much more anti-homophobic than I am, but
>I don't think being gay should get you money from the government.

I don't know, the way some of the RR talks, we might be able to file for 
disability!

ObTrav: A world sees some common trait as being a horrible disadvantage 
(being left-handed, for ex) left handers are offered all sorts of 
government assistance, programs.. the good times end when the ship tries to 
leave.. the pilot is left-handed, and under law cannot operate the ship in 
the planet's airspace...

-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
  with sex." - Fry, Futurama


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 12:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 22 11:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422104155.009f3ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDBDMAA.tml@downport.com>

You have that exactly backwards. The LL say it's physical, which might fall
under the ADA if you thinks it is handicapping you in some way. The RR (and
the Pope) say it is an act of the will, meaning sin.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
>
> I don't know, the way some of the RR talks, we might be able to file for
> disability!
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 13:42:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 12:42:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
References: <F262jQlc7vtdFq7ImxU00001228@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC46749.40007@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     Yet another example of typical Whipsnadian brain flatulence.  I ask 
> the kind folk of the TML to contact me off-List and then neglect to 
> provide the address.  Did I mention that my head comes to a point?
>     Thanks again for your help.

Uhhh...at least in _my_ mail client, Larsen's e-mail address

grote1731@hotmail.com

Is shown on each of his posts to the list...


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 13:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Radioactivity Rules
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421173609.009ec3e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC468A1.8050409@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> OK class, if a M-16A2 assault rifle weighs about 5 lbs at the start of 
> the road march, how much will it weigh after 25 miles cross-country 
> through Korea in July?

Why the same as an unladen kitten perched on your chest, asleep.

5.67 tons. ;-)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
Message-ID: <200204222013.g3MKDLi02407@mailbag.com>

Hello all,

My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete the 
process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be spending the evening 
of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San Francisco. If there are any 
fellow Travellers who would care to get to gether with me that evening for beer 
and/or conversation, please let me know. 

Thanks!

William




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <DAV57DRtBBnmIahhPyO0001abc4@hotmail.com>

I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
before.

Gygax is very much to gaming as Kirby was to comics.


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV57DRtBBnmIahhPyO0001abc4@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_91614101==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
>growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
>before.

Mr. Weiss,

Without putting too fine a point on it, Mr. Gygax and TSR also ended up in 
litigation with Mr. Arneson about authorship and royalties about D&D - 
despite the fact that Arneson originated the concept and was listed as a 
co-author on the cover of the original game.  If that is "improving on what 
had come before" forgive me if I want to check to see if I have all my 
fingers when we're done shaking hands.

Even if you buy the argument that Gygax was somehow responsible for the 
"success" of D&D, you could build a case that TSR missed opportunity after 
opportunity to make it even bigger.  Or merely note the fact that the 
company was run into the ground, not once, but TWICE, despite their 
"success."  Add to that the antagonistic relationship that Gygax had with a 
great number of fans - many of whom are now successful game designers in 
their own right - and these conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)

To each their own, Mr. Weiss.

Victor Raymond


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_91614101==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I wasn't aware that Arneson made
D&amp;D a million dollar industry with still<br>
growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had
come<br>
before.</blockquote><br>
Mr. Weiss,<br><br>
Without putting too fine a point on it, Mr. Gygax and TSR also ended up
in litigation with Mr. Arneson about authorship and royalties about
D&amp;D - despite the fact that Arneson originated the concept and was
listed as a co-author on the cover of the original game.&nbsp; If that is
&quot;improving on what had come before&quot; forgive me if I want to
check to see if I have all my fingers when we're done shaking
hands.<br><br>
Even if you buy the argument that Gygax was somehow responsible for the
&quot;success&quot; of D&amp;D, you could build a case that TSR missed
opportunity after opportunity to make it even bigger.&nbsp; Or merely
note the fact that the company was run into the ground, not once, but
TWICE, despite their &quot;success.&quot;&nbsp; Add to that the
antagonistic relationship that Gygax had with a great number of fans -
many of whom are now successful game designers in their own right - and
these conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)<br><br>
To each their own, Mr. Weiss.<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_91614101==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422190106.A61D4279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote:

> --- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > End result: no one in the nation has an income that
> > is below the 
> > poverty line.  Also, the amount of taxes necessary
> > would not be 
> > that high, especially since the entire welfare
> > bureaucracy (which 
> > consumes a surprisingly high percentage of the money
> > allocated to 
> > this sector of the government) would be instantly
> > eliminated.
> 
> The only way I can see such a system working is if you
> ensure that those in the system are at least
> attempting to be employed.  That, then, requires that
> at least some of your welfare bureaucracy remain.  I'm
> not suggesting that our current system is better, just
> pointing out a possible problem.
> 
> Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is 10,000Cr. 
> If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away 10,000
> of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick.  In
> my mind, this situation would produce three types of
> people:

<snip> 

That would *only* be true if the median income was at the poverty 
line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.  The incentive to 
work would be have an income greater than the poverty line.  Most 
people want this and the percentage of people below the poverty 
line honestly isn't that high.  If the poverty live was 10,000 Cr, then 
someone earning 20,000 Cr would be far more likely to pay no 
more than 20% of their income in taxes, resulting in a net income 
of 16,000 Cr.  Assuming a wealth structure like that in the US, then 
if there was a reasonable tex system (ie one where the ultra-
wealthy could not use numerous loop holes to avoid paying any 
taxes) then that 20% could likely be reduced to 15% (for 20,000 
Cr), resulting in a net income of 17,000 Cr.  Those extra 6,000 or 
7,000 Cr can buy lots of nice things and many people will think 
them worth the effort.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019508300.7419.ajackson@ping>

For reference on negative income tax:

http://www.indiapolicy.org/lists/india_policy/2000/Jun/msg00007.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:48:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:48:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
Message-ID: <20020422.134355.-170613.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

William

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:13:20 GMT wlewis@mailbag.com writes:
> Hello all,
> 
> My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to
complete the process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be
spending the evening of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San
Francisco. If there are any  fellow Travellers who would care to get to
gether with me that evening for beer and/or conversation, please let me
know. 
> 
> Thanks!

Congrats!!!

I pray your journey be safe, productive, and fulfilling to you, your
wife, and especially your new baby boy.

My best to you all. The world would improve greatly if it followed your
example.

Chaplain Bari

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV84RtKdLWPo08EOTq0001acff@hotmail.com>

Mr. Raymond,

Without putting too fine a point on it either, you seem to be confusing a
number of business policies more properly attributed to other people at TSR,
who among other things wound up unsucessfully suing Mr. Gygax over the game
he created upon being forced out of TSR, with the actions of Mr. Gygax
himself.
You seem to wish to ignore that Mr. Arneson had nothing to do with
expansions of the game following the initial publication.
As for the running of the company into the ground, this very specifically
happened when people other than Mr. Gygax were running the company.
Concerning his antagonistic relationship with fans as well as game
designers, from what I've witnessed this is a combination of Mr. Gygax being
right about a number of things he said, and some rather intense jealously.
More than one would be fanboy or sycophant has tried sucking up and been
rebuffed for getting something wrong and subsequently become an ardent
internet defamer of Mr. Gygax and his works. As well, the professional
jealousy of game designers whose command of the English language resembles
that of a 3 year old when compared to Mr. Gygax, not to mention the truly
questionable quality of some of their designs, should be highly suspect to
anyone with a discerning eye.

Is Gary a perfect person, always polite, and always humble about his
accomplishments?
No.
Do I agree with everything he has ever said?
No.
Did he define multiple aspects of a hobby genre like Jack Kirby defined
comics?
Definitely.

To each their own indeed. And for me, that is the most definitely Gary
Gygax, whether he is sending me blistering flames or fullsome praises.


Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 14:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Mon Apr 22 13:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 01:32:49PM -0700
References: <20020422190106.A61D4279B9@mail.travellercentral.com> <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020422145517.A5794@4dv.net>

On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 01:32:49PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> That would *only* be true if the median income was at the poverty
> line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.  The incentive
> to work would be have an income greater than the poverty line.

I believe it was meant as a reductio ad absurdem.  That is, by making
x=100, it demonstrated the worst possible case.  Even if the tax rate
on earnings over the poverty line is only 1%, then for every $100 more
of work I put in I only get $99.  As the rate goes up, so does the
disincentive.  The practical effect is that less work gets done than
ideally should.

This is a problem with any tax, and is insurmountable.  There are
other, worse problems with no taxes.

> If the poverty live was 10,000 Cr, then someone earning 20,000 Cr
> would be far more likely to pay no more than 20% of their income in
> taxes, resulting in a net income of 16,000 Cr.

A net income of 16,000 Cr for 20,000 Cr worth of work.

> Those extra 6,000 or 7,000 Cr can buy lots of nice things and many
> people will think them worth the effort.

But is it worth 10,000 Cr worth of work for 6,000 Cr worth of credits?

I'm not anti-taxes; they're a necessary evil.  But it's important to
realise the very bad efects taxation has on an economy.  Ideally
taxation (and therefore, the public sector) would be limited to a few
percent of GDP, so as to minimise the deleterious economic effects
thereof.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A person who's interested only in books doesn't need other people...
                           --Arturo Perez-Reverte, The Club Dumas

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:00:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:00:24 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <3CC478B9.9010306@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Victor Jason Raymond wrote:
> At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
> 
>> I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
>> growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
>> before.

snip


> Add to that the antagonistic relationship that Gygax had 
> with a great number of fans - many of whom are now successful game 
> designers in their own right - and these conclusions look pretty dice-y. 
> (so to speak)

Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on this) 
  had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
role-playing industry.

Very likely there would have been no card came industry ("Magic-the 
gathering of spare cash", etc)

It was a runaway success that paved the way for everything else since, 
TSR mis-steps or not.

(Yes, I know it's runaway success was proof there was a huge untapped 
market for it out there, but that is the nature of runaway 
successes....'Trivial Pursuit' was also a runaway success, despite a 
host of similar games like it on the market in the past that didn't take 
off.)

I myself was introduced to Traveller as '...like D&D, only SF, with 
starships and fusion guns...'

Like it or not, the *one* thing that springs to the average person's 
mind when they heard the term 'role playing game' is D&D.

Well, that and '..sallow, spindly geek with no life..', but I digress...

(and I'm not sallow, and (alas) long passed the 'spindly' stage...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
References: <200204222013.g3MKDLi02407@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <3CC479F7.6090906@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

wlewis@mailbag.com wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete the 
> process to adopt a baby boy. 

Congratulations!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <3CC478B9.9010306@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_94568000==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 01:55 PM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Victor Jason Raymond wrote:
>>At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>>I wasn't aware that Arneson made D&D a million dollar industry with still
>>>growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had come
>>>before.
>
>snip
>
>
>>Add to that the antagonistic relationship that Gygax had with a great 
>>number of fans - many of whom are now successful game designers in their 
>>own right - and these conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)
>
>Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on 
>this)  had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
>role-playing industry.

<nods>

Dear Bruce (and an aside to Mr. Weiss),

I would definitely agree with you about this.  My point is that if you 
should praise Gygax, you ought to also praise David L. Arneson, as well - 
it's only fair.  Gygax wouldn't have had D&D if Arneson had not started 
doing Blackmoor.  And there is a fair bit to point out that isn't so 
praiseworthy.

Victor


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_94568000==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 01:55 PM 4/22/02 -0700, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Victor Jason Raymond wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>At 04:12 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you
wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I wasn't aware that Arneson made
D&amp;D a million dollar industry with still<br>
growing potential. That's what Gygax did by improving on what had
come<br>
before.</blockquote></blockquote><br>
snip<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Add to that the antagonistic
relationship that Gygax had with a great number of fans - many of whom
are now successful game designers in their own right - and these
conclusions look pretty dice-y. (so to speak)</blockquote><br>
Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on
this)&nbsp; had there been no D&amp;D, there very likely would have been
*no* role-playing industry.</blockquote><br>
&lt;nods&gt;<br><br>
Dear Bruce (and an aside to Mr. Weiss),<br><br>
I would definitely agree with you about this.&nbsp; My point is that if
you should praise Gygax, you ought to also praise David L. Arneson, as
well - it's only fair.&nbsp; Gygax wouldn't have had D&amp;D if Arneson
had not started doing Blackmoor.&nbsp; And there is a fair bit to point
out that isn't so praiseworthy.<br><br>
Victor<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_94568000==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:20:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:20:29 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <200204222116.ETY00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip Gygax stuff>

Well, the basic lesson that I see in the whole Gygax thing
is never, ever run a company and staff it with your friends.  
I did that with my own software startup, and it was the worst 
mistake I ever made in my life.

Either that, or I'm not a very good judge of character.  But 
to be on the safe side, don't make your friends your business 
partners.

Greed is a curious thing, and most people are not as immune 
to it as they might imagine.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV84RtKdLWPo08EOTq0001acff@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161637.04bc1d60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_94973383==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 04:53 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Mr. Raymond,
>
>Without putting too fine a point on it either, you seem to be confusing a
>number of business policies more properly attributed to other people at TSR,
>who among other things wound up unsucessfully suing Mr. Gygax over the game
>he created upon being forced out of TSR, with the actions of Mr. Gygax
>himself.

Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the 
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.  Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR when Mr. 
Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and co-authorship.

>You seem to wish to ignore that Mr. Arneson had nothing to do with
>expansions of the game following the initial publication.

Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and co-authorship.  TSR 
and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.

>As for the running of the company into the ground, this very specifically
>happened when people other than Mr. Gygax were running the company.

I will grant you that.  The Blume Brothers did not exactly paint themselves 
in glory.

>Concerning his antagonistic relationship with fans as well as game
>designers, from what I've witnessed this is a combination of Mr. Gygax being
>right about a number of things he said, and some rather intense jealously.

Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with 
a straight face.

>More than one would be fanboy or sycophant has tried sucking up and been
>rebuffed for getting something wrong and subsequently become an ardent
>internet defamer of Mr. Gygax and his works.

Not the people I am referring to.  Do keep in mind the dispute between TSR 
and Chaosium regarding the Lovecraftian Mythos, etc. (which involved the 
Lovecraft estate and Mr. Moorcock's solicitors), just as an example of 
something other than your generalization.

>As well, the professional
>jealousy of game designers whose command of the English language resembles
>that of a 3 year old when compared to Mr. Gygax, not to mention the truly
>questionable quality of some of their designs, should be highly suspect to
>anyone with a discerning eye.

Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?


>Is Gary a perfect person, always polite, and always humble about his
>accomplishments?
>No.
>Do I agree with everything he has ever said?
>No.
>Did he define multiple aspects of a hobby genre like Jack Kirby defined
>comics?
>Definitely.

And this is where we must part company.

Cheers!

Victor Raymond


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_94973383==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 04:53 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Mr. Raymond,<br><br>
Without putting too fine a point on it either, you seem to be confusing
a<br>
number of business policies more properly attributed to other people at
TSR,<br>
who among other things wound up unsucessfully suing Mr. Gygax over the
game<br>
he created upon being forced out of TSR, with the actions of Mr.
Gygax<br>
himself.</blockquote><br>
Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.&nbsp; Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR
when Mr. Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and
co-authorship.&nbsp; <br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>You seem to wish to ignore that Mr.
Arneson had nothing to do with<br>
expansions of the game following the initial
publication.</blockquote><br>
Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and
co-authorship.&nbsp; TSR and Arneson settled out of court for a
considerable sum.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As for the running of the company
into the ground, this very specifically<br>
happened when people other than Mr. Gygax were running the
company.</blockquote><br>
I will grant you that.&nbsp; The Blume Brothers did not exactly paint
themselves in glory.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Concerning his antagonistic
relationship with fans as well as game<br>
designers, from what I've witnessed this is a combination of Mr. Gygax
being<br>
right about a number of things he said, and some rather intense
jealously.</blockquote><br>
Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again
with a straight face.&nbsp; <br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>More than one would be fanboy or
sycophant has tried sucking up and been<br>
rebuffed for getting something wrong and subsequently become an
ardent<br>
internet defamer of Mr. Gygax and his works.</blockquote><br>
Not the people I am referring to.&nbsp; Do keep in mind the dispute
between TSR and Chaosium regarding the Lovecraftian Mythos, etc. (which
involved the Lovecraft estate and Mr. Moorcock's solicitors), just as an
example of something other than your generalization.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As well, the professional<br>
jealousy of game designers whose command of the English language
resembles<br>
that of a 3 year old when compared to Mr. Gygax, not to mention the
truly<br>
questionable quality of some of their designs, should be highly suspect
to<br>
anyone with a discerning eye.</blockquote><br>
Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Is Gary a perfect person, always
polite, and always humble about his<br>
accomplishments?<br>
No.<br>
Do I agree with everything he has ever said?<br>
No.<br>
Did he define multiple aspects of a hobby genre like Jack Kirby
defined<br>
comics?<br>
Definitely.</blockquote><br>
And this is where we must part company.<br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_94973383==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Neural Guns
Message-ID: <2237.1019490155@www44.gmx.net>

Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen,

I've got questions regarding Neural Weaponry.

All my knowledge is based on the few lines of Weapons Description and the
two inserts into the Weapons Price Table in the Imperial Encyclopedia/MT.

The Stats I could work out are...
Neural Pistol-16
no AmmoNotes, ? Rds, Pen/Att 10/-, special (but known) Dmg, MaxRange Long,
no AutofireTargets, no DangerSpace, Low Signature, Low Recoil, Difficulty as
Handgun
Neural Rifle-16
no AmmoNotes, ? Rds, Pen/Att 10/-, special (but known) Dmg, MaxRange Long,
no AutofireTargets, no Danger Space, LowSignature, Low Recoil, Difficulty as
Rifle
...just to show, that I thought before consulting TML

So now :

Are there any 'official' stats/rules regarding neural guns (probably hidden
in some secret supplement I don't know - there are many of these)?

My problem lies in (s.a.) ? Rds - How much ammunition does a neural pistol
or rifle pack? I think it would need a power pack, as energy weapons, which
would correspond roughly with the ammunition price and weight stated in the
weapons price table(?) How many shots per pack? Are there integral (or only
integral) versions, and how much shots would these have?

I'd be glad, if you shared your knowledge or opinion,
bye, Sebastian

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:31:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:31:38 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <200204222116.ETY00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422162357.04be58d0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_95312126==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 05:16 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
><snip Gygax stuff>
>
>Well, the basic lesson that I see in the whole Gygax thing
>is never, ever run a company and staff it with your friends.

Very very very true.  One thing that a friend who grew up in Lake Geneva 
once told me was that Don Kay (the "K" in the original "G/K" logo for TSR) 
was the only fellow that Mr. Gygax would listen to back then, in the case 
of disputes.  Kay died rather suddenly (see his obit in Strategic Review 
#2) - it would have been very very interesting to see how things might have 
turned out had he lived.

>
>I did that with my own software startup, and it was the worst
>mistake I ever made in my life.
>
>Either that, or I'm not a very good judge of character.  But
>to be on the safe side, don't make your friends your business
>partners.

Good advice.

There's gotta be an ObTrav for this - perhaps never hire your friends as 
crew for your Free Trader?  (But that would undermine most parties of 
adventurers!  Or is this merely an observation that the sorts of trouble 
the average group gets into is merely to be expected?  Oh, the 
possibilities....:))

Victor

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_95312126==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 05:16 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&lt;snip Gygax stuff&gt;<br><br>
Well, the basic lesson that I see in the whole Gygax thing<br>
is never, ever run a company and staff it with your friends.
</blockquote><br>
Very very very true.&nbsp; One thing that a friend who grew up in Lake
Geneva once told me was that Don Kay (the &quot;K&quot; in the original
&quot;G/K&quot; logo for TSR) was the only fellow that Mr. Gygax would
listen to back then, in the case of disputes.&nbsp; Kay died rather
suddenly (see his obit in Strategic Review #2) - it would have been very
very interesting to see how things might have turned out had he
lived.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&nbsp;<br>
I did that with my own software startup, and it was the worst <br>
mistake I ever made in my life.<br><br>
Either that, or I'm not a very good judge of character.&nbsp; But <br>
to be on the safe side, don't make your friends your business <br>
partners.</blockquote><br>
Good advice.<br><br>
There's gotta be an ObTrav for this - perhaps never hire your friends as
crew for your Free Trader?&nbsp; (But that would undermine most parties
of adventurers!&nbsp; Or is this merely an observation that the sorts of
trouble the average group gets into is merely to be expected?&nbsp; Oh,
the possibilities....:))<br><br>
Victor<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_95312126==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:34:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:34:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
> 1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
> (b) working because they are not concerned with the money aspect of
> the work, but are motivated by something else entirely.

Put me down as a 1b, shifting very rapidly into 3 due to my employer's
incompetence.


> 3.  Loafers (Very Large Majority)
>      These people realize that no matter how much (or how little)
> they work, they will get at least enough money to subsist

... true already in many countries ...


> and if they earn more, the government is likely to take it all from
> them.

More true under the current system (at least in Aus) than under the
proposed one.  Under the proposed system, if you work more you *will*
earn more, as opposed to Australia's current system where you can
often earn less.  Still, even Australia has unemployment less than
10%, most of it transient.  High, but hardly the "Very Large
Majority".


> Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were making an
> attempt at earning a living,

The fact that you get to increase your income substantially if you
work is reason enough.  As Mr. Uhl points out, you won't keep 100% of
your income, which is true for any government that imposes taxation.
It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
some part-time workers.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 15:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr 22 14:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisco
In-Reply-To: <200204222013.g3MKDLi02407@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422144908.009e84c0@mindspring.com>

At 08:13 PM 4/22/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete 
>the
>process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be spending the evening
>of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San Francisco. If there are any
>fellow Travellers who would care to get to gether with me that evening for 
>beer
>and/or conversation, please let me know.

There are a few of us about..

Contact me by personal email and we'll work something out.  I'll forward 
this to the Traveller in SF list.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

>> and if they earn more, the government is likely to take it all from
>> them.
>
>More true under the current system (at least in Aus) than under the
>proposed one.  Under the proposed system, if you work more you *will*
>earn more, as opposed to Australia's current system where you can
>often earn less.  Still, even Australia has unemployment less than
>10%, most of it transient.  High, but hardly the "Very Large
>Majority".

But that is 10% of the working population. Add in people on disability
and women who stay home taking care of kids (which is a full-time job,
but means that they have to be supported form somewhere) and the
unemployed suddenly rises dramatically. In Norway for example we
have almost 1 million people (out of 4.5 million population) on
disability (full time and part time). And that is what is breaking
our backs. Most of those people would be able to work full time
but since they can get away with a check from the state due to
disability......

>> Hence, someone would need to ensure that people were making an
>> attempt at earning a living,
>
>The fact that you get to increase your income substantially if you
>work is reason enough.  As Mr. Uhl points out, you won't keep 100% of
>your income, which is true for any government that imposes taxation.
>It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
>some part-time workers.

True, so true. But the wierd thing is that those people have to get
that money back from the state somehow, as social security or what ever
to survive. It's the state taking money and then giving it back again!

Tommy Grav


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <20020422.182803.-145167.1.Knightsky@juno.com>


On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Kiri Aradia Morgan
<tiamat@tsoft.com> writes:
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Frank Pitt wrote:
> 
> > Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> > > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> > 
> > Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
> > 
> > Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
> > <grin>
> > 
> I'd have to agree.

Seconded.

                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:36:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:36:46 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <20020422.182803.-145167.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:50:37 -0400 "William Lane" <wlane@aessuccess.org>
writes:
> 
> >> Joseph Elric Smith wrote :
> >> > Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
> >>
> >> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to Comics.
> >>
> >> Gygax is to Gaming what Shooter was to comics.
> >> <grin>
> >>
> >I'd have to agree.
> 
> Please forgive my stupidity but who or what is Shooter?

Jim Shooter, editor-in-chief of Marvel Comics during the late 70s & early
80's.  Not without his virtues and talents, he is nonetheless known for
his heavy-handed, sledgehammer approach to acting as editor, and has
managed to alienate to this day many of the creative people in the comics
industry. 



                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"







________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:39:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:39:37 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on 
> this) had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
> role-playing industry.

I'm not certain I agree with this.  I've seen different accounts of
various proto-RPGs pre-1973 (and unfortunately, no, I don't have sources
to quote at the moment - sorry); the idea for a RPG did not spring solely
from Arnenson and Gygax... they were simply the first to *market* the
idea. 

I believe that RPGs *would* have eventually been published by other
people even if D&D had never existed, they would have simply appeared a
few years later.  And... if D&D had not been the first, then perhaps the
rest of the industry would not have needed to spend so much effort the
last 3 decades trying desperately to get away from the various clunky
aspects of D&D that Gygax pushed as being "the one true way" of
roleplaying...

> Very likely there would have been no card came industry ("Magic-the 
> gathering of spare cash", etc)

And this is a bad thing HOW...?  ;-)


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:52:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:52:11 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204221544240.16983-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 knightsky@juno.com wrote:

> > Very likely there would have been no card came industry ("Magic-the 
> > gathering of spare cash", etc)
> 
> And this is a bad thing HOW...?  ;-)

Well, the introduction of those awful CCG's freed up a lot of my evenings,
(because my gaming group turned into Magic zombies) and I got married
shortly after that...

yeah, right.

Nuke 'em.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 16:56:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 15:56:07 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <200204222116.ETY00065@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204221546070.16983-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Greed is a curious thing, and most people are not as immune 
> to it as they might imagine.

No, they aren't, and all kinds of human emotions that don't obviously have
any connection to the issue are tied up in money and business.  Doing
business together will either solidify or completely destroy a family, a
friendship, a marriage, or a lovers' bond.  It is like sleeping with your
best friend after 10+ years of platonic friendship; the reward if you
succeed and it all works out is truly wonderful, but the risk is your
heart and your spirit, and braver souls than me or thee have declined to
take it.

Kiri ^_^ (who worked on a small press magazine with two men, best friends
who are still best friends-- one of whom is now her ex-fiance and the
other her ex-husband, and still adores them both-- from the other side of
the continent.)

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>
References: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net> <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <20020423090608.A5160@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tim wrote:
[...regarding "group 3"...]
> > Still, even Australia has unemployment less than 10%, most of it
> >transient.  High, but hardly the "Very Large Majority".

Tommy Grav wrote:
> But that is 10% of the working population. Add in people on
> disability

... who are already being paid for by the government anyway, so no
extra cost there, and most of whom wouldn't be able to work if they
wanted to.  Hence the majority of them are not in group 3.


> and women who stay home taking care of kids

At the moment, they're already surviving.  Either by husbands (who
hence have a lower disposable income) or by the government.  Either
way, they're already accounted for.  They are also certainly not in
group 3!


> >It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
> >some part-time workers.
> 
> True, so true. But the wierd thing is that those people have to get
> that money back from the state somehow,

No, they don't.  That's the point; it's the ones who don't work at all
who get the money from the state.  I'll give an example:

An unemployed person (e.g, me) got about A$170/week in direct cash
benefits, about $40/week in rent assistance, paid 50% less for public
transport, up to 90% less on medicines, and further 10-50% concessions
on a range of things as diverse as internet access, movie tickets,
house insurance, power, and telephone bills.  His net income was $210
per week.  (If this person had a child, he/she would get the full
child care subsidy, quite a substantial amount.  But I'm not
personally familiar with exactly how much so I'll leave it out).

Suppose he works part time.  His employment income is say A$300 per
week, but the government takes income taxes of about $50/week from
that.  He no longer receives unemployment benefits, rent assistance,
and would receive greatly reduced child care allowance (again, leaving
it out due to lack of personal experience).  He pays full price for
public transport, various utility bills, medical expenses, and other
things adding up to about $70/week.  He no longer receives any rent
assistance.  After living expenses, his net income has dropped by $30
compared with unemployment.

So for $300 worth of work (about 15-20 hours), he nets $30 *less* than
if he was unemployed, thus keeping -10% of the wages from his extra
effort.  That's still enough to survive on, but *extremely*
discouraging.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 17:19:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:19:40 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <20020422.182802.-145167.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CC499EA.1020901@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>>Still, (and I'd suspect that Marc and Loren would agree with me on 
>>this) had there been no D&D, there very likely would have been *no* 
>>role-playing industry.
> 
> 
> I'm not certain I agree with this.  I've seen different accounts of
> various proto-RPGs pre-1973 (and unfortunately, no, I don't have sources
> to quote at the moment - sorry); the idea for a RPG did not spring solely
> from Arnenson and Gygax... they were simply the first to *market* the
> idea. 

I never said they were the only source, merely the first _wildly 
successful_ one. Quality is no guarantee of success, witness MS Windows 
and AOL.

Neither of them were the first in their genre, nor even the best, but 
there is little doubt that they are the 800 pound gorillas of the market.

D&D may not have been pure in a mechanical sense, but like BASIC, and 
'You have SPAM!' it is now the de-facto standard of comparison..the 
reason it got there is because it was 'the fustest with the mostest'.

(says an old-timer who remembers back when 'September on the Net' 
actually meant that it was, indeed, September...ahh those halcyon 
pre-AOL, pre-Prodigy, pre-Compuserv days...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 17:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 22 16:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Product Announcement
Message-ID: <016701c1ea59$53179d50$969393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0162_01C1EA61.9C2DD060
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Just a quick note to inform the Traveller community that we (Quiklink =
Interactive) will be putting the first "LBB PDF" up for sale in a few =
days.

This will be "Traveller's Aide #1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space"

Designed specifically for use with CT and T20, most of the information =
within is compatible with any version of Traveller; stats can be =
converted from CT to other rules sets as necessary.

Contents include:

- Extra combat rules
- Details of weapon scanner technologies and how to beat them
- A selection of large and small arms firms within the Imperium
- Some unique or special weapons
- The Imperial Weapons Permit System,=20
- A comprehensive guide to smallarms and melee weapons, with compiled CT =
and T20 data tables for all the weapons listed.

More news is available on the Quiklink website: =
http://www.travellerrpg.com/


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses

------=_NextPart_000_0162_01C1EA61.9C2DD060
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just&nbsp;a quick note to inform the =
Traveller=20
community that we (Quiklink Interactive) will be putting the first "LBB =
PDF" up=20
for sale in a few days.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This will be "Traveller's Aide #1: =
Personal Weapons=20
of Charted Space"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Designed specifically for use with CT =
and T20, most=20
of the information within is compatible with any version of Traveller; =
stats can=20
be converted from CT to other rules sets as necessary.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Contents include:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Extra combat rules</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Details of weapon scanner =
technologies and how to=20
beat them</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- A selection of large and small arms =
firms within=20
the Imperium</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Some unique or special =
weapons</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- The Imperial Weapons Permit System, =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-&nbsp;A comprehensive guide to =
smallarms and melee=20
weapons, with compiled CT and T20 data tables for all the weapons=20
listed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>More news is available on the Quiklink =
website: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.travellerrpg.com/">http://www.travellerrpg.com/</A></F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0162_01C1EA61.9C2DD060--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:06:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:06:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Neural Guns
References: <20020422220007.4ED0F279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC4A483.8DEF4B63@earthlink.net>

S.Feige

> Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
> I've got questions regarding Neural Weaponry.
> 
> All my knowledge is based on the few lines of Weapons Description and the
> two inserts into the Weapons Price Table in the Imperial Encyclopedia/MT.
> 
> The Stats I could work out are...

Even though someone's probably already answered your questions, I
thought I'd post anyway. Apologies for any waste of bandwidth.

Challenge #46 has them worked up in detail for MT. The specs are:

Neural weapons have 2 settings: stun and kill.

Stun will inflict as many damage points as necessary to render
the target unconscious, up to the weapon's limit.

Kill inflicts the full damage pont capability, whatever the
target's condition.

Should a mishap occur (marginal success), roll 2D on the Mishap
Table. Whether the damage modifier is added or subtracted can
be determined randomly or using Murphy's Law. If the intention
was to stun, increase damage; if the intention was to kill,
decrease damage.

TL   Type           Psi-Pen   DMs             Dam   Difficulty
---------------------------------------------------------------
16   Neural Rifle     10      As direct fire   7    Rifle
16   Neural Pistol    10      As direct fire   5    Handgun


David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
References: <20020422190106.A61D4279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002601c1ea5d$32d89f40$d3b18b90@computer>

> From: Steven Hudson
>   Given the role of the army in political strife in the later Empire,
> maybe the empire would have functioned better without any of those
> classes in the legions :|

Look how well it worked when they replaced them with barbarians.  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <200204221459.g3MExjP00155@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3CC55510.8412.A77E03@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002 at 7:58, Steven Hudson wrote:
>   That's why I went with "arguably" - it can be presented either way,
> with the big issue being whether some of those positions (eg, a Roman
> centurion) were officers or NCO's. By the social standards of the
> non-professionals in command (& staff) at Legion level they were only
> commoners for almost all purposes, but the Legion could sooner function
> without any of those patricians or equites than it could with even half
> of the centurionate absent.
> 
>   Given the role of the army in political strife in the later Empire,
> maybe the empire would have functioned better without any of those
> classes in the legions :|

Well the importance of even centurions in much of that strife argues 
for them being considered officers - very few coups in the modern world 
are started and managed by sergeants.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:38:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:38:29 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423072932.A5001@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC55510.9619.A77EB7@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 7:29, Timothy Little wrote:

> The fact that you get to increase your income substantially if you
> work is reason enough.  As Mr. Uhl points out, you won't keep 100% of
> your income, which is true for any government that imposes taxation.
> It's still better than keeping -10% of it, as happens in Australia for
> some part-time workers.

Doesn't quite happen in NZ, but even ignoring GST (being a sales tax 
it's relatively invisible most of the time) the effective tax rate for 
being a low-income part-time worker can be up around 85%.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:41:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:41:12 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020422144112.94516.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <E16zRrI-0000bq-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002 at 7:41, Paul Walker wrote:
> Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is 10,000Cr. 
> If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away 10,000
> of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick.  In
> my mind, this situation would produce three types of
> people:

You're assuming that 50% of the population does no work, here.
 
> 1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
>      These people continue to earn as much as they
> can, either (a) hoping that maybe the government will
> not need all of it to pay for those not at poverty
> level and that they will get to keep the extra
> (doubtful) or (b) working because they are not
> concerned with the money aspect of the work, but are
> motivated by something else entirely.

Why is it doubtful?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423090608.A5160@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204230003130.309178-100000@svati>
Message-ID: <3CC55776.26351.B0DA34@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 9:06, Timothy Little wrote:
> An unemployed person (e.g, me) got about A$170/week in direct cash
> benefits, about $40/week in rent assistance, paid 50% less for public
> transport, up to 90% less on medicines, and further 10-50% concessions
> on a range of things as diverse as internet access, movie tickets,
> house insurance, power, and telephone bills.  His net income was $210
> per week.  (If this person had a child, he/she would get the full
> child care subsidy, quite a substantial amount.  But I'm not
> personally familiar with exactly how much so I'll leave it out).

Now I know why New Zealanders were so keen on going to Aussie to loaf 
round on the dole and surf (or so the Aussie government would like 
everyone to think). Here the base rate for an over 25 is (IIRC) NZ$157 
per week, rent support of about 1/3 of your rent. There's also 
considerable subsidy on your medicines (over and above what everyone 
gets), and some on public transport, but that's about it.
 
> Suppose he works part time.  His employment income is say A$300 per
> week, but the government takes income taxes of about $50/week from
> that.  He no longer receives unemployment benefits, rent assistance,
> and would receive greatly reduced child care allowance (again, leaving
> it out due to lack of personal experience).  He pays full price for
> public transport, various utility bills, medical expenses, and other
> things adding up to about $70/week.  He no longer receives any rent
> assistance.  After living expenses, his net income has dropped by $30
> compared with unemployment.
> 
> So for $300 worth of work (about 15-20 hours), he nets $30 *less* than
> if he was unemployed, thus keeping -10% of the wages from his extra
> effort.  That's still enough to survive on, but *extremely*
> discouraging.

We just have a (low) point after which you lose 70% of your dole for 
each dollar (gross) that you earn. You also lose the rent assistance at 
a smaller rate at the same time, and IIRC that starts as soon as you 
earn any money. The only reason this doesn't give an effective rate of 
over 100% is that the rent assistance is usually all gone by the time 
the reduction in the dole starts. Still working on a minimum wage job 
for an in-the-hand hourly rate of about NZ$1.00 - 1.50 isn't very 
encouraging.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Product Announcement
In-Reply-To: <016701c1ea59$53179d50$969393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <016701c1ea59$53179d50$969393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <200204222051330083.CE6F127D@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 4/23/2002 at 12:55 AM MJ Dougherty wrote:

>Just a quick note to inform the Traveller community that we (Quiklink=
 Interactive) will be putting the first "LBB PDF" up for sale in a few=
 days.
>
>This will be "Traveller's Aide #1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space"
>
>Designed specifically for use with CT and T20, most of the information=
 within is compatible with any version of Traveller; stats can be converted=
 from CT to other rules sets as necessary.

For those interested, I have just put up a preliminary webpage for this=
 product with a small sample of 3 pages (and the cover)

http://www.TravellerRPG.com/PDF/ta0001.html

As Martin noted, this PDF should be available for purchase within the next=
 2-3 days

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020419185930.009fcec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020423005500.10756.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 03:35 PM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Pilots are officers because the military does not
> >want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> >flying a $30 million airplane when it
> crashed.....even
> >though the average fighter jock is holding
> essentially
> >the same position as that Sgt [if that]. For some
> >arcane reason, it makes people feel better, knowing
> >that a 'degreed proffessional' is behind the
> >wheel/stick.....but don't ask me to explain
> >why........
> 
> That being said, during WWII the Germans used
> enlisted pilots, as did the 
> RAF for a short time.  The USMC had flying
> sergeants, since they thought 
> there was no reason to tie up perfectly good
> officers in what was 
> essentially a technical skill.  That died as
> carriers came to the fore, and 
> more Marines came to be stationed on ships. Many of
> the old Flying 
> Sergeants received reserve commissions as officers,
> while retaining their 
> permanent rank as enlisted men.
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       
>
  >>
  ...My point....MAC
  >>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 18:59:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Apr 22 17:59:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE:  Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <008201c1e814$658fd700$265d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020423005823.20768.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > From: Michael Cessna
> >   Pilots are officers because the military does
> not
> > want to explain to Congress that a 'mere' Sgt was
> > flying a $30 million airplane when it crashed.....
> 
> No.  The 'pilots are officers' thing dates all the
> way back to the
> beginnings of military aviation.
> 
> The logic, presumably, was that a pilot was a
> gentleman and an educated
> professional, of a higher social class to the mere
> tradesmen and mechanics
> that worked on the ground.
> 
> There have been exceptions - "Flight Sergeants"
> occasionally served as
> pilots in WWII.
> 
> Winston Churchill's comments on Naval Tradition
> apply to the traditions of
> other services too, to a considerable extent.  Don't
> try to find present day
> logic in them.
> 
> Alan Bradley
> 
  >>
  Actually, it dates from almost the beginning of
Marine Aviation. While the first Marine (and Naval)
Aviator was an officer, he was quickly followed in
Central American service, by enlisted pilots. This
tradition, although frowned upon by the Navy,
continued until just after the end of WW2.

   MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] officer selection traits
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020422200846.039e5b10@pop.wizard.net>

Hey!  Thanks for posting that link earlier to the Inc. magazine article 
about what the USMC looks for in officer selection.  The Robert E. Lee they 
talk about used to be my OIC fifteen years ago or so.  He was a major then 
and I was a corporal.  He is one of the finest officers I'll ever have the 
honor to meet.  (My father, both my grandfathers, my uncles, and lots of 
other blood relations were career officers themselves, so that was not an 
idle compliment.)  Yeah, I'm sure Bob Lee had leadership traits, judgment, 
and management ability in spades even back when he was a boot lieutenant 
barely old enough to shave.

I still remember him describing that assignment aboard that freighter full 
of refugees and adrift in the Phillipine Sea in 1975.  It was classified 
for a long time, but eventually it was declassified and eventually after 
that someone persuaded him to write it up for the Marine Corps 
Gazette.  Bob Lee was never a self promoter, the description you read in 
the Inc magazine article is very, very toned down from what happened.  The 
Gazette article has some of the more gut wrenching stuff left out, too.

I've used that incident and Bob Lee more than once in my own gaming.  It's 
the stuff of high adventure.

The only reason I've ever been able to find for having the incident 
classified was to avoid political embarrassment.  Reasons of national 
defense really didn't apply.  If you want to research the Marine Corps 
Gazette article that Bob Lee wrote about it, search for an article written 
by Robert E. Lee (I believe major at the time) published in the late 
1980s.  I recommend it as a small Traveller adventure.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <200204230113.EUF04788@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Kiri Aradia Morgan says
>Kiri ^_^ (who worked on a small press magazine with two men, 
>best friends who are still best friends-- one of whom is now 
>her ex-fiance and the other her ex-husband, and still adores 
>them both-- from the other side of the continent.)
>

Ah, I know that one.  My ex-wife, on very hot summer days, 
would say, "I love you from over here."
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV66kY7QNSljIazjBl0001b1b6@hotmail.com>

Victor Raymond wrote,

>I would definitely agree with you about this.  My point is that if you
should praise Gygax, you ought to also praise David L. Arneson, as well -
it's only fair.  Gygax wouldn't have had D&D if Arneson had not started
doing Blackmoor.  And there is a fair bit to point out that isn't so
praiseworthy.<

Then the complaint should be that the quote should read "Gygax and Arneson
are to gaming what Kirby and Lee were to comics", not that the half
presented is someone false.

>Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.  Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR when Mr.
Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and co-authorship.<
and,
>Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and co-authorship.  TSR
and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.<

Not according to what I've heard.
Which is that Arneson wished no part in developing the game into what became
AD&D. Thus the desire to not continue paying royalties when he was doing no
work.
While there is likely more to it than that, the point is there may be
another view.

>I will grant you that.  The Blume Brothers did not exactly paint themselves
in glory.<

And don't forget Lorraine Williams.

>Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with
a straight face. <

If you mean "Chess, Poker, and the AD&D game system", then I not only say
that with a straight face, I submit it as proof of my position.
The simple fact is, however poorly it may have been stated or received, Gary
was absolutely right. The proof of that is in the development of the RPGA
and the Living City Campaign, which required a single, standard set of
rules, with little to no variation, in order to organize and manage a
national campaign.
The only problem with what Gary said was there was no organization to make
what he said stick.

>Not the people I am referring to.  Do keep in mind the dispute between TSR
and Chaosium regarding the Lovecraftian Mythos, etc. (which involved the
Lovecraft estate and Mr. Moorcock's solicitors), just as an example of
something other than your generalization.<

I am aware of that.
Are you aware that Gary contacted Chaosium and negotiated a mutual promotion
to resolve the matter but the Blumes squashed the deal because they didn't
want to give any support to anyone else?

>Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?<

Is that really necessary?

I wish to refute various assertions as to the failures of Gary Gygax that
are, quite simply tainted by a less than positive view of the individual. If
we are to judge by that standard, then I don't think anyone will survive.
Whatever Gary's failings as an individual might be, they most certainly do
not detract from his accomplishments as a game designer.
Further, when that is what people use to diminish those accomplishments, it
does, to me, speak more of their failings than the person they are seeking
to tear down.


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <200204230113.EUF04788@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204221831540.3200-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Kiri Aradia Morgan says
> >Kiri ^_^ (who worked on a small press magazine with two men, 
> >best friends who are still best friends-- one of whom is now 
> >her ex-fiance and the other her ex-husband, and still adores 
> >them both-- from the other side of the continent.)
> >
> 
> Ah, I know that one.  My ex-wife, on very hot summer days, 
> would say, "I love you from over here."

:)

ikaros is one of my dearest friends in the world, actually.  But turns out
he's gay, not bi, so the marriage didn't quite work out like we thought it
would.

The Vanguard years were "...the best of times, the worst of times..." in
spades.  We really found out who our friends actually were.

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <f9.1b1126af.29f61465@aol.com>

As it happens, I am quite good friends with both Gary Gygax, and Dave 
Arneson, and I am better acquainted than most with their contributions to the 
hobby. I am the better for knowing them, and for having worked with both of 
them.

They are happy to share the title: "Co-creators of Roleplaying" and with good 
reason, because they invented it. Much like Gilbert and Sullivan, they have 
their mutual antagonisms, but for the time they worked together, they 
invented the industry by which I now make a living. Something like 
roleplaying might have come about without them, because others were thinking 
along the same lines at about the same time, but they made it happen. 
Traveller would not exist without them. I'd be a game publisher, but it would 
be a radically altered industry, primarily board wargames and miniatures 
rules . . . 

Both Gary and Dave admit they missed opportunities. Who of us hasn't? 
However, I am not willing to press "reset" and eliminate one or the other of 
their contributions just to see what would happen. THings could have turned 
out a LOT worse.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 19:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Mon Apr 22 18:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Traveler Ring
In-Reply-To: <3CC4A483.8DEF4B63@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001e01c1ea6a$29c788a0$2f7de40c@loki>

This is the ever occasional and irregular annoyance declaring the
existence of the...

Traveller Web Ring
http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=traveller;action=info

If you have a Traveller web site come on board and we'll spread the
community.


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019492558.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20422.181710.3T8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
>> "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > Just what is this Negative Income-Tax Theory?  How does it work to
>> > eliminate poverty?
>> 
>> The government defines a poverty line.  People at and near that 
>> point pay no income taxes.  Anyone with an income greater than 
>> that pays a graduated tax, depending upon how far above it they 
>> are.  Anyone below the poverty line gets money from the 
>> government (much like a tax refund but w/o having to pay any 
>> money in) to give them money equal to being at the poverty line.  
>
> Not quite; one idea behind negative income tax as I'm aware of it is that 
> it's
> supposed to eliminate the welfare effect where by getting a job, your income
> doesn't improve.  Thus, if the poverty line is $10,000/year and you made less
> than that, tax would be something like 50% of income - $5,000, so if you made
> $2,000/year, your taxes would be -$4,000/year.

The version I recall being interested in was one that included a flat
rate tax.

So say the "poverty line" was $10, and the tax rate was 10%. 

So your taxes would be (income - $10,000)*0.1.

income	taxes
------	------
20,000	1,000
15,000	  500
10,000	    0
 5,000	  500
     0	1,000

Obviously, you'd want to move the break point up, or the tax rate up or
both to get a true replacement for welfare.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:16:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:16:33 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <000001c1ea22$d25c5a60$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <20422.182252.6Q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> If anyone in the Portland/Vancouver area that is on this list hears
> about any job that could use someone good with computers or telecom,
> please email me off-list.

I'm trying to scrape by until I can sell some property. Alas, it looks
like I need to spend several hundred bucks I can't afford just to make
the property likely to sell... :-(

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:19:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:19:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDBDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20422.183614.1Z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> You have that exactly backwards. The LL say it's physical, which might fall
> under the ADA if you thinks it is handicapping you in some way. The RR (and
> the Pope) say it is an act of the will, meaning sin.

No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
sex isn't a sin.

*Acting* upon that attraction (ie engaging in homsexual sex acts) is
what's the sin.

The confusion is due to the common error of confusing "being
homosexual" with being a *practicing* homosexual. Not the same thing.

And it makes sense. If you had to actually be performing the
appropriate type of sex acts to have a given sexual orientation, then
nobody who doesn't have an active sex life would *have* a sexual
orientation. Which is utter nonsense.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV66kY7QNSljIazjBl0001b1b6@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422212448.04e52de0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_113567595==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 09:14 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out of TSR, true - but that came later than the
>original dispute with Mr. Arneson.  Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR when Mr.
>Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and co-authorship.<
>and,
> >Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and co-authorship.  TSR
>and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.<
>
>Not according to what I've heard.

Well, since I've talked with Dave Arneson many times over the past twenty 
years, I've gotten it from the source.

>Which is that Arneson wished no part in developing the game into what became
>AD&D. Thus the desire to not continue paying royalties when he was doing no
>work.

Not at ALL what Dave has said.  And "not continue paying royalties" is 
incorrect - TSR stopped paying royalties very early on in the history of 
the production of D&D.

> >Go re-read his editorial in Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with
>a straight face. <
>
>If you mean "Chess, Poker, and the AD&D game system", then I not only say
>that with a straight face, I submit it as proof of my position.

I was referring to "View From the Telescope Wondering Which End is Which" 
in issue #11.  My apologies.  Now go back and say that with a straight face.

>(Re:  Chaosium) I am aware of that.
>Are you aware that Gary contacted Chaosium and negotiated a mutual promotion
>to resolve the matter but the Blumes squashed the deal because they didn't
>want to give any support to anyone else?

No, but good to know.  Nice to be clear that the Blumes were the direct 
problem there.


> >Care to name any names, Mr. Weiss?<
>
>Is that really necessary?

Well, given the sweeping statement you made, yes.  Unless this counts as a 
retraction.


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_113567595==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 09:14 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;Yes, Mr. Gygax was forced out
of TSR, true - but that came later than the<br>
original dispute with Mr. Arneson.&nbsp; Mr. Gygax was in charge at TSR
when Mr.<br>
Arneson brought suit against the company for royalties and
co-authorship.&lt;<br>
and,<br>
&gt;Almost entirely due to the suit regarding royalties and
co-authorship.&nbsp; TSR<br>
and Arneson settled out of court for a considerable sum.&lt;<br><br>
Not according to what I've heard.</blockquote><br>
Well, since I've talked with Dave Arneson many times over the past twenty
years, I've gotten it from the source.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Which is that Arneson wished no
part in developing the game into what became<br>
AD&amp;D. Thus the desire to not continue paying royalties when he was
doing no<br>
work.</blockquote><br>
Not at ALL what Dave has said.&nbsp; And &quot;not continue paying
royalties&quot; is incorrect - TSR stopped paying royalties very early on
in the history of the production of D&amp;D.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;Go re-read his editorial in
Dragon #12 (I believe), and say that again with<br>
a straight face. &lt;<br><br>
If you mean &quot;Chess, Poker, and the AD&amp;D game system&quot;, then
I not only say<br>
that with a straight face, I submit it as proof of my
position.</blockquote><br>
I was referring to &quot;View From the Telescope Wondering Which End is
Which&quot; in issue #11.&nbsp; My apologies.&nbsp; Now go back and say
that with a straight face.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>(Re:&nbsp; Chaosium) I am aware of
that.<br>
Are you aware that Gary contacted Chaosium and negotiated a mutual
promotion<br>
to resolve the matter but the Blumes squashed the deal because they
didn't<br>
want to give any support to anyone else?</blockquote><br>
No, but good to know.&nbsp; Nice to be clear that the Blumes were the
direct problem there.<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;Care to name any names, Mr.
Weiss?&lt;<br><br>
Is that really necessary?</blockquote><br>
Well, given the sweeping statement you made, yes.&nbsp; Unless this
counts as a retraction.<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_113567595==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <f9.1b1126af.29f61465@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020422213416.04e54920@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_113712064==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

What Loren said.  While I've known Mr. Arneson much better than Mr. Gygax, 
I think Loren says it right.  Thanks!

Victor

At 09:35 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:
>As it happens, I am quite good friends with both Gary Gygax, and Dave
>Arneson, and I am better acquainted than most with their contributions to the
>hobby. I am the better for knowing them, and for having worked with both of
>them.
>
>They are happy to share the title: "Co-creators of Roleplaying" and with good
>reason, because they invented it. Much like Gilbert and Sullivan, they have
>their mutual antagonisms, but for the time they worked together, they
>invented the industry by which I now make a living. Something like
>roleplaying might have come about without them, because others were thinking
>along the same lines at about the same time, but they made it happen.
>Traveller would not exist without them. I'd be a game publisher, but it would
>be a radically altered industry, primarily board wargames and miniatures
>rules . . .
>
>Both Gary and Dave admit they missed opportunities. Who of us hasn't?
>However, I am not willing to press "reset" and eliminate one or the other of
>their contributions just to see what would happen. THings could have turned
>out a LOT worse.
>
>LKW
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_113712064==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
What Loren said.&nbsp; While I've known Mr. Arneson much better than Mr.
Gygax, I think Loren says it right.&nbsp; Thanks!<br><br>
Victor<br><br>
At 09:35 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>As it happens, I am quite good
friends with both Gary Gygax, and Dave <br>
Arneson, and I am better acquainted than most with their contributions to
the <br>
hobby. I am the better for knowing them, and for having worked with both
of <br>
them.<br><br>
They are happy to share the title: &quot;Co-creators of Roleplaying&quot;
and with good <br>
reason, because they invented it. Much like Gilbert and Sullivan, they
have <br>
their mutual antagonisms, but for the time they worked together, they
<br>
invented the industry by which I now make a living. Something like <br>
roleplaying might have come about without them, because others were
thinking <br>
along the same lines at about the same time, but they made it happen.
<br>
Traveller would not exist without them. I'd be a game publisher, but it
would <br>
be a radically altered industry, primarily board wargames and miniatures
<br>
rules . . . <br><br>
Both Gary and Dave admit they missed opportunities. Who of us hasn't?
<br>
However, I am not willing to press &quot;reset&quot; and eliminate one or
the other of <br>
their contributions just to see what would happen. THings could have
turned <br>
out a LOT worse.<br><br>
LKW<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
TML mailing list<br>
TML@travellercentral.com<br>
<a href="http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml" eudora="autourl">http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml</a></blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_113712064==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 20:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 22 19:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20422.183614.1Z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEDKDMAA.tml@downport.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>
> No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
> homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
> sex isn't a sin.

You misstate the RR POV, which says there is no *being* in the equation.
That would suggest something physical. They tend to deny causation outside
of the fallen (sin) condition. You correctly stated the RCC position, which
like the jewish view holds that only the act is condemnable.

ObTrav: at what LL do we see the appearance of the Thought Police? Can they
exist at any LL, for 1 on up where the technology or psionic ability exists
to determine intent before action? Or does there have to be a high LL before
your thoughts become criminal?

_____________________________________________
The Traveller Web Portal
http://www.downport.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] WOW! I'm massively flattered!
Message-ID: <F20Jpjc0D543TuylJc000000369@hotmail.com>

From: Jeff Zeitlin <editor@freelancetraveller.com>

     "...indicating that he wants to make Freelance Traveller the 
rpgnews.com "Fan Site of the Week".  This is massively flattering;..."


Mr. Zeitlin,

     Flattering it may be, but it also an award that you richly deserve, 
sir.  You EARNED it through both superb editing work and constant labor in 
maintaining such a fine web site.

     "Once again, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who 
has allowed me to publish their work at Freelance Traveller; it's your work 
more than mine that has made Freelance Traveller what it is.  As long as 
you're still interested in supporting it, I will keep on keeping on; people 
like you are too valuable to lose."

     Others may help in providing content, but the presentation is yours 
alone and that is the reason you and your site are being recognised.  The 
best of content, arranged in a haphazard, harum-scarum manner in a 
ill-designed site, would have been lost.  You crafted a wonderful showcase 
AND selected a pleasing variety of things to display within it AND ensured 
those items were well crafted.  The recognition and accolades are yours and 
yours alone, as they should be.
     Look at the "Wounded Colossus" material.  I originally posted it to the 
TML in several disjointed, rambling posts over the period of a month, 
nothing more than ill-spelled mess of grammatical horrors which contained 
some ideas that struck the List's fancy.
     You, Mr. Zeitlin, took all that dross and refined it.  You patiently 
collected each post, corrected the gaffes, goofs, and faux pas, cleaned up 
the presentation, whittled away redundancies, and acted in every way as a 
true editor, the type of editor ever writer should have.  You made the 
"Wounded Colossus" material far better than it had been when it left my 
hands.  That is why you have been honored.
     My congratulations, sir.  This honor are well deserved and long 
overdue.  Bravo, sir!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. Whipsnade, aka William R. Cameron

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:11:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:11:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F167tLLVTnE9Q3uQIhN00007388@hotmail.com>

From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>

     "EXCUSE ME? After your "Colossus" posts detailing your alternate ending 
to the MT Rebellion, I'll be happy to debate your statement with you or 
anyone else."

     "That was a masterful piece of work, sir, and one that has become a 
permanent part of my MT campaigns. I haven't seen much of your other work 
but quality, not quantity, is the mark of excellence (as Imperium Games 
found out the hard way)."


Mr. Smart,

     Thank you, sir, you are very kind.  I was fortunate in having the 
active participation of the List while posting WC.  I was doubly fortunate 
that Mr. Zeitlin both accepted it for inclusion in his site and polished it 
to a high luster.
     However, despite producing the "Colossus" material, I am not the best 
of web surfers or researchers!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please - TO&Es (OT)
Message-ID: <F35zRPTNZStgLzhVOJw00000252@hotmail.com>

From: "Beth" <shylady69@runbox.com>

     "It's OK, nothing to worry about.  Everything will be alright.  Why 
don't you follow these two gentlemen to a nice comfy room we have for you.  
All padded and quiet.  Latter we will feed you.  We hope that you like 
pudding.  We will even fit you with a new jacket as well."


Ms. Shylady,

     I do enjoy a good pudding, but it so hard to grip the spoon with one's 
toes...
     May I also send along my condolences with regards to your bouts of 
Whipsnade's Syndrome?  "Brain Flatulence", as it is commonly known, is a 
horrid affliction.  The other day, I left the Whipsande Manse, Casa Diablo, 
without first putting on socks.  I didn't even notice my lack of socks until 
the local constabulary had run me in for not wearing pants.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 21:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Mon Apr 22 20:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204220934420.5760-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422152128.04f30c60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422161244.04bc01f0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20020422212448.04e52de0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV142mduL7Uu9Pyo250001b287@hotmail.com>

>Well, since I've talked with Dave Arneson many times over the past twenty
years, I've gotten it from the source.<

And since I've talked with Gary Gygax, so have I.

>Not at ALL what Dave has said.  And "not continue paying royalties" is
incorrect - TSR stopped paying royalties very early on in the history of the
production of D&D.<

Well I guess they have different opinions of how it went down.

>I was referring to "View From the Telescope Wondering Which End is Which"
in issue #11.  My apologies.  Now go back and say that with a straight
face.<

I don't have access to that.
Either way, it wouldn't really matter. You see, I've heard worse than
anything I've ever seen in print directed at me personally by Gary. So
anything sent in general will simply amuse me by how mild the statements
are.

>Well, given the sweeping statement you made, yes.  Unless this counts as a
retraction.<

It is not a retraction, but I will not elaborate on it. I see no reason to
engage in the gratuitous slamming of people just to satisfy your curiousity.
It will have to suffice that I've read critiques of Gary's work by people
whose works I regard as jokes.

Instead, I would also support what Loren said. I would simply note that no
one was eliminated by the statement being discussed. What you have it a
statement of support and admiration by someone who only regularly
communicates with one of the people involved. But it seems rather than being
satisfied with suggesting, as I did, that the statement is best completed by
adding, Arneson and Lee, people would rather go to attacking Gary.


Sam


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 22:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Mon Apr 22 21:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <20020422041531.74282.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DAV43ywkGmY8TkomDt500003bb3@hotmail.com>

James Ramsay wrote:


> Until we develop AI or very very sophisticated system
> this would be useless in the real world.

I agree.  I suppose the system developer would claim he _had_ created a very
very sophisticated system.  I wouldn't presume to judge until I'd seen it in
operation, but I'm fairly skeptical that this things ready to set the world
on fire.

> How does a
> computer now whether a person is reaching for a gun or
> there wallet? Answer they can't.

Police and security officers, while performing lightyears beyond computers,
have a less than unblemished record in this regard.

> All it can do is
> determine that an image of a person looks like its
> reaching for something.

I think the system may scan pedestrian crowds looking for non-typical
patterns of traffic movement.  (Person X has passed the jewelry store 5
times in the past 10 minutes, while persons Y and Z have been loitering a
few yards away for about the same amount of time.  I'd better wake Officer
Friendly.)  Admittedly, this assumption is based on the WAG Algorithm.

> If they stopped wasting money
> on tech dreams such as this actual humans could be
> hired.

If by "tech dreams" you mean any new research, I disagree with the
philosophy implicit in your statement.  If, on the other hand, you mean
pie-in-the-sky nonsense, we're on the same page.

I'm mindful of a company some years ago that did quite well for itself in
the Texas area selling a "sniffer" gadget.  Their product was a box with a
few dials, some lights, and an antenna.  They marketed their product as
being able to sense drugs, explosives, and fire accelerants.  Based on some
slick brochures and some test demonstrations (where the fix was in, of
course) a number of schools, security firms and (sigh) police departments
purchased this fraudulent piece of garbage.

I don't know if the Cromatica system will turn out to be research or
pie-in-the-sky nonsense.

> And for a very long time into the future humans
> (even the ones typically hired as security guards)
> will have more reasoning ability than all the
> computers in the world!

I couldn't agree more.  And this touches on my real quibble with this or any
other advance that makes something like law enforcement/security easier or
more convenient.

    <Old Coot Rant: Enable>

Eaiser and more convenient don't necessarily translate to better.

In general, and all other things being equal:

Who's more diligent?
 a guard at a building with doors open to the public
or
 a guard at a building with biometric security.

Who knows more (in his/her head) about the people and area (s)he polices?
a cop of today with a car, cell phone, two way radio and mobile data
terminal
or
a cop of eighty years ago who walked a beat, contacted headquarters from a
call box, and was forced to rely on his/her knowledge and memory of their
beat and its inhabitants to do their job.

If the video scanning technology that checks body measurements against those
of known offenders becomes commonplace and reliable, how good will the next
generation of police be at remembering and recognizing faces?

If Cromatica works and becomes popular, how many security officers will set
the alarm and read / nap / play video games until the system says there's a
problem?

    <Old Coot Rant: Disable>

> Robotic security guards have
> been in development since the 70's and no one has yet
> to make one that is accurate and/or doesn't cost more
> than the police budget for a small city.

Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being tried
out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 22 22:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Mon Apr 22 21:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEDKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <B8EA36A9.3918%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

on 4/22/02 7:46 PM, Swordy at tml@downport.com wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>> 
>> No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
>> homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
>> sex isn't a sin.
> 
> You misstate the RR POV, which says there is no *being* in the equation.
> That would suggest something physical. They tend to deny causation outside
> of the fallen (sin) condition. You correctly stated the RCC position, which
> like the jewish view holds that only the act is condemnable.
> 
> ObTrav: at what LL do we see the appearance of the Thought Police? Can they
> exist at any LL, for 1 on up where the technology or psionic ability exists
> to determine intent before action? Or does there have to be a high LL before
> your thoughts become criminal?
> 

I would think it the measure is LL, not psionic ability or TL.  "1984"
describes a pretty low TL world, maybe 5-6?, an that book pretty much
defines 'thought police'.

Of course, this measures only what the official government of a world
enforces, not the society at large - so if society on planet Rubella
believes people who like blue are 'evil' or a threat of some type, and
therefore don't employ them, throw them out of their homes/schools, ban them
from normal family/societal functions to the point of actual physical danger
and at least economic hardship - the LL can still be rather low (even if the
Rubellan government actively attempts to help blue liking people by giving
them subsidies).

Doesn't LL not only cover what is illegal, but also how often you can expect
to be hassled and how much hassle you can expect once your character finds
him or herself talking to a cop?

Joe


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 02:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue Apr 23 01:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B84@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Tackett [mailto:haegen2001@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 22 April 2002 10:38
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
> 
> 
> Nah, _Arneson_ is to gaming what Kirby was to
> > Comics.
> Dave Arneson? I remember that name ,but can't remember
> what he did.

Co-wrote Original D&D with Gygax, His campaign world was Blackmoor,
Gygax's was Greyhawk

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 02:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 01:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
Message-ID: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C1EAAD.1F0222C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


A sample from Traveller's Aide #1 is now on the QuikLink site....

http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html

------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C1EAAD.1F0222C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A sample from Traveller's Aide #1 is =
now on the=20
QuikLink site....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html">http://www.traveller=
rpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00E5_01C1EAAD.1F0222C0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Love the cover!
Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the pdf will be somewhat better.
I will be buying this.

Regards,

Andrei Nikulinsky

>
>A sample from Traveller's Aide #1 is now on the QuikLink site....
>
><http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html>http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <016901c1eaa7$8a03d6f0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> Love the cover!
> Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the pdf will be somewhat better.
> I will be buying this.
> 
> 

Heh.... we'll hold you to that, mind.....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <DAV142mduL7Uu9Pyo250001b287@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIECFHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Just to clarify why I equated Arneson to Kirby and Gygax to
Shooter

Both Arneson and Kirby were the primary creative geniuses in
their work, and both lost control of their creative work due to
business practices, which while legal, were morally questionable.

Both Gygax and Shooter, while having produced some great work (in
Shooter's case the "Michael" sequence in "The Avengers" was
groundbreaking for mainstream superheroes) appear (in their
writing at least) to have huge egos, and  seem to very easly
alienate other creative people. They both also seem to have poor
business sense, while at the same time seeming to think they were
good at the money side of the business, though admittedly that is
my judgement basd on second-hand reports, so is not inherently
reliable.

I'd agree with Sam's equating of Gygax to Stan Lee as well, while
I think the Shooter comparison is more accurate in terms of
temperment and style, the original team pairing part is more
accurate in terms of contemporienity.

With regard to the old "D&D created the industry" chestnut,
despite Loren's statement, D&D was neither original nor was it a
neccessary catalyst for the industry.

If TSR had not had D&D, Professor Barker's "Empire of the Petal
Throne" would almost certainly still have been published by TSR a
short time later. What became Arduin and Runequest would still
have been developed at or around the same time. "Traveller" may
not have been, but then we would have had something else it's
place, perhaps from Steve Jackson ('Car Wars' was almost a
roleplaying game from it's inception) or from FGU.

In terms of originality, just about all of the basic concepts of
what would become "roleplaying" were discussed in H.G. Wells
"Little Wars". At the other end of the roleplaying spectrum, the
trend toward heroic free-form/improvisational theatre had already
peaked in the late sixties and was losing it's lustre, with one
or two notable exceptions.

GDW, Chaosium, WRG, TSR, Flying Buffalo, Steve Jackson, Steve
Curtis, and many other primarily wargaming companies were all in
the process of adding fantasy wargaming and roleplaying systems
of various forms to their wargames, largely due to the popularity
of "Lord of the Rings" at the time. These were based originally
on personalization details for their army "generals" and "special
figures", and also on the trend toward small scale "skirmish"
wargames where the individual figures were heavily personalized
and even given "character", of which "Chainmail" was just one,
and not the most influential either.

While I'm not going to deny D&D's importance, it was not, IMO,
neccessary for the development of roleplaying.
Someone would have filled the role, just as someone would have
become the equivalemt of Bill Gates and Microsoft if Bill & Co.
had not been around, as both were merely a culmination of trends
rather than sudden discontinuities.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 03:34:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue Apr 23 02:34:38 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC47A26.8636.3BFE8DF@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKECFHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rachel Kronick wrote :
> On 22 Apr 2002, at 20:20, Timothy Little wrote:
>
> > Blame it on the government, not Frank.  They're the
> > ones making decisions whether to hand out money
> > based on the origin of your ancestors.  I'm not
> > sure whether he was being serious about the
> > "lesbian" benefit or not.

Actually I don't think there actually is a _specific_ lesbian
benefit in New Zealand, I was being flippant.

> The solo parent benefit certainly is fact.

Yes, as are the special benefits for Maori, though I don't
disagree with the intent of the solo parent benefit or some of
the benefits targetted at Maori, my beef is with the people who
consider it a career choice, and the government that takes so
much of my money.

> I have little or no problem with the government's
> decisions regarding  benefits;

While I, on the other hand have huge problems with the way these
benefits are awarded.

I consider that such things should be targetted based on need,
not on membership of some arbitrary racial or social grouping, as
_that_, IMO, is racism, sexism, or whatever.

> the problem was that Frank came very close
> to implicitly saying that being Maori or being
> lesbian was a bad thing.

If I thought being Maori or being lesbian were bad things in
themselves I would have no qualms about saying it in public or on
this list. I wouldn't just imply it.

> His derisive tone, not the government's decision,
> was what irked me.

I'd say you worry about the wrong things then, complaining about
a mere derisive tone rather than the actual racism and sexism the
derision was targetted at. But that's your karma, not mine.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 04:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 03:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/23/2002 at 5:05 PM ondy wrote:

>Love the cover!
>Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the pdf will be somewhat better.
>I will be buying this.

The jpgs don't do it justice really, so I just posted a 4-page PDF sample=
 also. Same pages, but you get a better look at the layout!

http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001s.pdf

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 04:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 03:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Law Level (was: RAH and Libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <20020423093810.4CB01279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020423093810.4CB01279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <j6cacu0relbk1aah5d6noe68aoaq6v0ncf@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:32:03 -0700, Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Doesn't LL not only cover what is illegal, but also how often you can expect
>to be hassled and how much hassle you can expect once your character finds
>him or herself talking to a cop?

There are varying interpretations; the Original Canon seemed to make LL
exclusively a measure of how legal it was to go around armed beyond the
teeth.  Not unreasonable, necessarily, given that the level of
sophistication of role-playing in those days was low by today's standards,
and hakkenslash was "SOP". (N.B. I view Traveller as having been one of the
games that started the movement away from that.)

On the rare occasions that I actually address the question of what LL
means, I do currently interpret it as being the 'overall police hasslement'
likelihood - but I also like to expand the LL into a ULP,  l DGP WBH -
after all, there's no requirement for consistency in all areas of the law
(e.g., LL in NYC for weapons possession is essentially 9+, but I'd estimate
the hasslement level as only about 3 for most people in most situations).
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 07:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 06:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RPGs
Message-ID: <95.1b594c7e.29f6ba34@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/23/2002 4:39:08 AM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>GDW, Chaosium, WRG, TSR, Flying Buffalo, Steve Jackson, Steve
>Curtis, and many other primarily wargaming companies were all in
>the process of adding fantasy wargaming and roleplaying systems
>of various forms to their wargames, largely due to the popularity
>of "Lord of the Rings" at the time. These were based originally
>on personalization details for their army "generals" and "special
>figures", and also on the trend toward small scale "skirmish"
>wargames where the individual figures were heavily personalized
>and even given "character", of which "Chainmail" was just one,
>and not the most influential either.

You've obviously done considerable research if you know of Steve Curtis -- 
few people do nowadays.

>While I'm not going to deny D&D's importance, it was not, IMO,
>neccessary for the development of roleplaying.

I'm not as certain of that as you are . . . let us agree to disagree.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 07:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 06:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <DAV43ywkGmY8TkomDt500003bb3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC60A07.12144.5F6853@localhost>

On 22 Apr 2002 at 23:39, Texas Redshift wrote:

> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being tried
> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

Not off-hand, but that sounds like one of Harry Harrison's from _War 
with the Robots_.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:35:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:35:26 2002
Subject: [TML] GT-FT question: Governers vs Legates
Message-ID: <3CC57085.ACFD07EB@mail.cswnet.com>

Two quick questions:

Whats the difference between an Imperial Governor and an Imperial
Governor-General?

On worlds like Arba and Yorbund, where there is no government, who does
the Imperium send, a Legate or a Governor?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] living space
Message-ID: <F209X64kDn9cvKluevz000007df@hotmail.com>

From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net>

     "But the Traveller navies, like the wet navies of today require 
sophisticated technologically savvy crewmen. Not the kind of people that 
would want to live under conditions that exist on even today's ships (one 
reason the U.S. Navy has so much trouble keeping people.)"


Mr. Carlino,

     A very accurate supposition, sir.  Living conditions were one, of many, 
reasons I did not put twenty years in the USN.
     During the ship habitability thread of last year, I described ad 
nauseum the living arrangements aboard my last ship, USS California.  A 
brief recap will fit here.
     I lived with 41 other men in an area slightly smaller than a two car 
garage.  Our bunks were stacked three high.  Personal property stowage was 
limited to a locker underneath our beds; approx 6' by 2' and 10" deep, and a 
smaller gym-style locker.  My division was lucky, our office was one deck 
below our berthing area so we could watch TV, play cards, etc., down there 
and let others sleep.
     Our berthing area was a "hazardous noise area" when underway.  That 
meant that ear plugs or muffs were required.  Both propeller shafts ran 
underneath the space, #2 engineroom was forward, #2 diesel was aft along 
with #2 pump room.  My last year aboard, the space finally recieved noise 
dampening pads on the bulkheads which lessened the problem somewhat.
     The sanitary arrangements can be summed up in one phrase; our two 
commodes didn't have stalls around them until my last year aboard.

     "One of the easiest, and cheapest in the long run, method of keeping 
high quality people is to give them decent living conditions. It is common 
on merchant ships today for seamen to live in the kind of berthing used on 
Traveller ships. It is my contention that by the middle of this century U.S. 
Navy ships will have similar berthing, if only because that's they only way 
they will be able to compete for the high quality technical people they 
need."

     Either that or barracks ashore for ALL personnel.  The SSNs and SSBNs 
have always housed their crews ashore when the vessel is in port.  The rest 
of the Navy should do the same.  Putting up with cramped living conditions 
would be tolerable during deployments IF you knew you'd be returning to 
barracks back in port.  As it stands now, most naval personnel live in the 
factories where they work.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

ObTrav - I've always thought that 57th century SDBs are crewed in a manner 
similar to USN SSBNs; two crews per vessel.  This keeps the SDB on patrol 
longer without driving the crew mad.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:46:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:46:12 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
Message-ID: <200204231444.g3NEieV03093@uranus.networkwcs.net>

[... snip long non-Traveller stuff ...]

So what I would like to know from those who seem to have discussions
with G. Gygax is this: What is it about +1 axes and why do they seem
to appear in every early D&D module? Why, oh God why?!? THE AXES, THE
AXES!!!

... ahem. Sorry. I'll go back into topor again.

ObTrav: Do the Imperial Marines use +1 axes in shipboard hand-to-hand
combat? Would a superdense axehead make a +1 axe? If Dulinor had
killed Strephon with a +1 axe, would the course of the Rebellion been
altered (oh wait, it was all a dream, wasn't it Bobby?). Would F.S.
industries be willing to buy secret plans for a +1 axe spinal mount
stolen from the planet Xayag?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

Who showed supreme restraint when he gave the last p*racy thread a pass.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:52:13 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <F209X64kDn9cvKluevz000007df@hotmail.com>
References: <F209X64kDn9cvKluevz000007df@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <02042316460813.03729@avlendris>

Hey Guys

After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video 
(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net seems 
utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was a 
Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters). 

Anyone have any clue?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 08:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Tue Apr 23 07:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIECFHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <DAV142mduL7Uu9Pyo250001b287@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020423094644.04ea2d60@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_1470066==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 09:42 PM 4/23/02 +1200, you wrote:
>If TSR had not had D&D, Professor Barker's "Empire of the Petal
>Throne" would almost certainly still have been published by TSR a
>short time later.

Not necessarily true.  Prof. Barker was introduced to D&D role-playing by a 
player from Mr. Gygax's Greyhawk campaign, who had moved from Lake Geneva 
to Minneapolis to begin college.  The subsequent game was mildly influenced 
by D&D, and aside from the "Purple Book" (the play-test rules that became 
EPT), there's no clear set of "role-playing" rules for Tekumel.  To be 
sure, Prof. Barker has talked about the role-playing done in grad school, 
but it wasn't intended for publication.

Victor Raymond


Victor J. Raymond
Department of Sociology, ISU
vraymond@iastate.edu
--=====================_1470066==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 09:42 PM 4/23/02 +1200, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>If TSR had not had D&amp;D,
Professor Barker's &quot;Empire of the Petal<br>
Throne&quot; would almost certainly still have been published by TSR
a<br>
short time later. <br>
</blockquote><br>
Not necessarily true.&nbsp; Prof. Barker was introduced to D&amp;D
role-playing by a player from Mr. Gygax's Greyhawk campaign, who had
moved from Lake Geneva to Minneapolis to begin college.&nbsp; The
subsequent game was mildly influenced by D&amp;D, and aside from the
&quot;Purple Book&quot; (the play-test rules that became EPT), there's no
clear set of &quot;role-playing&quot; rules for Tekumel.&nbsp; To be
sure, Prof. Barker has talked about the role-playing done in grad school,
but it wasn't intended for publication.<br><br>
Victor Raymond<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times">Victor J. Raymond<br>
Department of Sociology, ISU<br>
vraymond@iastate.edu</font></html>

--=====================_1470066==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 09:20:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 08:20:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>; from martinjd@globalnet.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:56:21AM +0100
References: <00f401c1eaa4$d5dd97d0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020423091936.A5708@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:56:21AM +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
> http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html

Looks attractive.  I wonder, though, if it might not have been
possible to put GURPS stats in as well.  Might have widened the market
some, and with a decent little prog shouldn't be too expensive.
Famous last words and all that, I know...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you want to travel around the world and be invited to speak at a lot
of different places, just write a Unix operating system.
                                       --Linus Torvalds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
>Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
...
>I'm not anti-taxes; they're a necessary evil.  But it's important to
>realise the very bad efects taxation has on an economy.  Ideally
>taxation (and therefore, the public sector) would be limited to a few
>percent of GDP, so as to minimise the deleterious economic effects
>thereof.

  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a substantial
public investment in infrastructure? It's called the Third World.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>






>After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video
>(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net
seems
>utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was
a
>Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters).

I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 (in fact
i try to pretend it never happened.)

I once ran a Galactica campaign. however i had no real dimensions on the
ship. so i started doing some guessing. First i found somewhere stated that
Battlestars carried 75 fighters broken down into 4 squadrons. i had
problems with this number. it worked out to 18 vipers per sqdrn and 3 left
over for... what? replacements to the squadrons? again nothing i could find
explained it.

anyway I also found out that she could launch all her vipers at once.
launching both Landing Bays(I always referred to the entire pod as the
Landing Bays even though only the aft end of the pod was used for ship
recovery). this comes up with the very convenient number of 37.5. so we are
launching half a viper out each bay every time we are under attack.

well i made a few changes upped the number of vipers to 80 giving each
sqdrn 20. and launching 40 in a broadside. to figure the length of the ship
i actually did two things. (Now remember this is from memory from like 1986
8P )

First i did have a set of dimensions for the viper. so i calculated the
width of the viper and launch bay at both 37.5 and 40. i had a set of plans
that where actually used to build the Mock fighter and the Launching pad
set. i think i still have that set of plans at home ill look tonight if i
do ill send you the dimensions i worked with.

Once this distance was figured. i tried to figure out how many gun
positions where spaced along the launch tub exits. the only way i could
figure this was by looking at the model i had built as a kid. Now granted i
know this is not the best thing you could do to figure it but i really had
no other choice. i took a best guess as to how wide i thought each gun
position was and added it to my viper width total.

i then estimated that this total number was 80% of the length of a landing
bay. so i tacked on 20% more to get a total landing bay. then once i had
this number i estimated the length percentage of the landing bay to the
ships over all length. so if i felt the landing bay was 45% of the ships
over all length i just tacked on double the landing bay plus 15% more to
get a total length over all.

to find width i did something similar.

when the vipers where on final to one of the landing bays you could see
other vipers sitting on their launch cradles. i did a an estimate of the
width of the landing bays based on the LOA of a Viper. once i had that
number i used my bays as a guide for a WOA for a Battlestar.

The number that comes to mind from back then is like 1750 meters to 1950
meters depending on 37.5 per broadside to 40 per broadside. She really is a
huge ship. i cant remember the WOA. ill look and see if i can find my notes
on dimensions for the Galactica and my plans that have the actual viper
dimensions

the biggest problem is that i don't think any real dimensions were ever
published for the Galactica so any dimensions are really a best guess.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231606.EVJ07561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

shudson@lightspeed.ca says
>
>  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
>modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a 
>substantial public investment in infrastructure? It's called 
>the Third World.
>

There's a balance to be struck there.  It's possible to spend 
too much, or make the definition of infrastructure too 
vague.  Also, it's a good thing for governments to invest in 
areas where venture capitalists fear to tread (rural electric 
power, the original Internet), but it's also good to know 
when those things should become private.

Not Exactly ObTrav: I firmly believe that instead of spending 
money on the Space Shuttle, the government should be spending 
on an initiative to get companies to build a low cost means 
to get into orbit.  Any idea that could work should be on the 
table.  Companies should get incentives for working in 
space.  We need to get off this rock and make money, instead 
of doing science in a tin can in orbit.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>; from shudson@lightspeed.ca on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 08:52:20AM -0700
References: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 08:52:20AM -0700, Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
>   Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
> modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a substantial
> public investment in infrastructure? It's called the Third World.

Of course I'm serious.  And the problem with those countries is not
`investment' (which is a misused word: investments yield returns), but
lack of ironclad property and contract law, among other things.  The
First World pours money into those places, and it does very little
good.

There are things for which it makes sense that they be state-run
(e.g. power & water distribution, roads &c.) but not state-subsidised
(i.e. you pay for what you burn/drink/whatever).  There are things for
which it makes sense that they be state-subsidised (e.g. the military
and process of government).

That does not mean that the public sector should be as large as it is.
And it certainly doesn't mean that we should not investigate ways to
either privatise _or_ run on the local level.

Good sigmonster...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A man who lives in a country ought to contribute his fair share to its
defense and maintenance.  Everything else is extortion.
                                       --Poul Anderson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:13:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:13:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020423091936.A5708@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>

In the broadest sense, they are competing products. And even though one of
them is based on an "open" gaming system, the other is not ;)

From Miracle Max's Recipe Book:

	To one fresh paper cut;
		add 1 tsp. lemon juice
		and 1/2 tsp. salt

	mash with your thumb until screaming stops

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Robert A. Uhl

> > http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html
>
> Looks attractive.  I wonder, though, if it might not have been
> possible to put GURPS stats in as well.  Might have widened the market
> some, and with a decent little prog shouldn't be too expensive.
> Famous last words and all that, I know...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:19:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:19:53 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
> Once this distance was figured. i tried to figure out how many gun
> positions where spaced along the launch tub exits. the only way i could
> figure this was by looking at the model i had built as a kid. Now

Model of what?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On 22 Apr 2002 at 7:41, Paul Walker wrote:
> > Let me explain.  Say the "poverty level" is
> 10,000Cr. 
> > If I earn 20,000Cr, you are going to take away
> 10,000
> > of them to pay someone who hasn't worked a lick. 
> In
> > my mind, this situation would produce three types
> of
> > people:
> 
> You're assuming that 50% of the population does no
> work, here.

Well, given Human nature, I would expect fewer than
50% to work.  If you can live decently without any
attempt to work, why would you work?  The entire
discussion originated around the negative tax, and the
explanation given has the government setting the
"poverty" level.

More than assuming 50% doesn't work, I assume that the
government will set the "poverty" level near the
median income.  Why?  It is good for reelection.  Now
before anyone jumps on my case, I recognize that this
is one of the major assumptions that will flaw my
arguement, but, frankly, I don't trust the government
to make the right decision.

The welfare system should exist for two reasons,
helping those who can't work to survive, and
encouraging those who can work to do so. 
Unfortunately, that is not what government officials
use it for.  They use it as a kick-back for votes. (I
do confess to a US-centric view of politics, but I
would imagine it is similar.)

The negative tax system as presented rewards people
for not working.  If you can work and you choose not
to, you should not get any reward.
  
> > 1.  Hard workers (Tiny Minority)
> >      These people continue to earn as much as they
> > can, either (a) hoping that maybe the government
> will
> > not need all of it to pay for those not at poverty
> > level and that they will get to keep the extra
> > (doubtful) or (b) working because they are not
> > concerned with the money aspect of the work, but
> are
> > motivated by something else entirely.
> 
> Why is it doubtful?
> 

Because the government will be likely to take more
than they need.  Someone will present the idea that we
can't lower the poverty level but we may not get
enough taxes to pay next year, so we better take a
little extra to ensure that we can pay the poverty
level in the future.  Not to mention that we need to
take in more taxes for our pork barrel.  

I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
retiring tomorrow.  While I don't know where all the
money went, I know that much went to pork barrel, and
some went to folks who never paid that much in.

Maybe I'm not making sense.  Suffice it to say, that I
don't trust the government to make the right
decisions, and the negative tax seems to put much
trust in the government to make the right decisions.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:25:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:25:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231606.EVJ07561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:06:01PM -0400
References: <200204231606.EVJ07561@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423101904.C5708@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:06:01PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> Not Exactly ObTrav: I firmly believe that instead of spending 
> money on the Space Shuttle, the government should be spending 
> on an initiative to get companies to build a low cost means 
> to get into orbit.

_Allowing_ companies to build and enter orbit would be a good start.

Part of the problem is that the technology to get men to the moon is
precisely the technology to get nukes to Naples.  Modern nation states
like it when a) only states posess power and b) as few states as
possible do so.

Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
but it's an interesting way to look at it.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say
to its subjects, `This you may not read, this you must not see, this
you are forbidden to know,' the end result is tyranny and oppression,
no matter how holy the motives.  Mighty little force is needed to
control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount
of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the
rack, not fission bombs, not anything.  You can't conquer a free man;
the most you can do is kill him.               --Robert A.  Heinlein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E16zkVK-0006cI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020423162545.82697.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> That would *only* be true if the median income was
> at the poverty 
> line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.

You are correct.  I think the pressure would be on the
government from those below median income to put the
"poverty" level as close to median as possible.

As those two numbers get closer, the quantity of
people who try to make more than will be taken is
reduced.  (I may be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of
work for 6,000Cr, but when the numbers get closer,
will I be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of work for
3,000Cr?)

The cycle continues until there are too few workers to
support the system.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162545.82697.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019580147.4086.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> --- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > That would *only* be true if the median income was
> > at the poverty 
> > line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.
> 
> You are correct.  I think the pressure would be on the
> government from those below median income to put the
> "poverty" level as close to median as possible.

Sure, and for those above the median income to put the 'poverty' level as low
as possible.  Seriously, the political pressures on tax levels with negative
income are not substantially different from those associated with general
welfare today, and it's very rare for welfare to allow someone to live at
median income.

Of course, if by 'poverty line', you mean the point at which your net tax rate
is zero, that may be at a fairly high percentile, but simply sitting without
working only gets you around 1/5 of that much money.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162545.82697.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Paul Walker wrote:

> --- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > That would *only* be true if the median income was
> > at the poverty 
> > line.  This is not true in *any* First World nation.
> 
> You are correct.  I think the pressure would be on the
> government from those below median income to put the
> "poverty" level as close to median as possible.
> 
> As those two numbers get closer, the quantity of
> people who try to make more than will be taken is
> reduced.  (I may be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of
> work for 6,000Cr, but when the numbers get closer,
> will I be willing to do 10,000Cr worth of work for
> 3,000Cr?)

This kind of economic system will ONLY work if no one has a "shit job".

If I had my druthers I would spend every day writing.  I might or might
not make any money on it, but that's what I'd do.  I do not work as a
physicians' administrative assistant for the sheer pleasure of it.  It's
annoying and boring much of the time, even though I believe in what we are
doing here.

Economic systems such as the one in ST:TNG work the way they do because of
labor replacement.  Replicators and robotics and "holograms" (that aren't
holograms) ensure that human beings don't have to flip burgers, type other
people's correspondence, etc.  I don't know who does the plumbing.  There
are a lot of jobs that pay well because they are boring, dangerous, or
stressful that people will simply not do unless they either love the work
so much they don't care, or are paid a lot more than other folks, so it is
worth it to them, and not taxed down to the median.

Writers, artists, and scientists love to posit such economic systems,
because they love what they do and will do it whether or not they get paid
a lot.  The fact remains, however, that construction work, plumbing, oil
rigging, upper level administration, and a lot of other very important
jobs that bring in fat paychecks get done because people want the fat
paychecks, not because people's souls thrill at the thought of mucking out
your sewer pipes or sitting through another meeting about the
Tleilaxu-Seldon grant budget.  I would never sit through another meeting
if I didn't have to.  I don't believe that the people who are going to
come over next Friday and fix my telephone lines are in it for the fun of
it all, either.

That is why I don't see this as a valid social plan.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93!  Thou Art God tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:53:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:53:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> > Looks attractive.  I wonder, though, if it might not have been
> > possible to put GURPS stats in as well.  Might have widened the market
> > some, and with a decent little prog shouldn't be too expensive.
> > Famous last words and all that, I know...


We don't have a license to do GURPS products. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 10:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 09:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFC0ADB44D.1ECBB5A6-ON85256BA4.005A572C@pheaa.org>





>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
>> Once this distance was figured. i tried to figure out how many gun
>> positions where spaced along the launch tub exits. the only way i could
>> figure this was by looking at the model i had built as a kid. Now

>Model of what?

Of the Galactica. put out by Revell or Monogram i think. had decals to make
it either the Galactica or the Pegasus. i made mine the Pegasus. I also had
several Vipers. in fact i built one on a launch cradle with a scratch built
Interior. It was not very good but i loved it 8)

the launch bays where clear along the Port and starboard side. spaced among
them (twice i think) was this flat area of hull where they gun emplacements
where suppose to be. On the model they did get the Forward Angle on the
Launch bays correct. the fighters did not launch strait out they launched
at a forward angle from the ship.

On a side note the number of launch tubs on this model where off as well. i
think it had like 24 or 25 launch tubes per broadside. but this model was
not what i would call a real scale model of the ship. it had a number of
serious Inconsistencies compared to the one you saw every week on the show.

For Example there is a "Tube" type stricture running from the port landing
bay to starboard landing bay underneath the Galactica's main hull. my
Assumption in my game was that this "tube" allowed for viper/shuttle
storage and maintenance. it also allowed for the moving of ships from on
bay to another depending on the situation. IE say in battle Alpha bay was
damaged in such a way that no viper recoveries could be made but the
forward launch facilities where still operable. you could recover vipers in
beta bay and move them to alphas launch tubes.

on the model this structure is not a "tube" but a portion of the main ships
hull. in fact the mid Bay Pylon is also molded into this structure when it
should not be. so if you use the model as a guide the Mid Pylon is actually
part of this huge under hull mass. However if you watch the show there are
some nice starboard side flanking shots of the Galactica as she moves away
from you. in these shots you can see the Mid Pylon is its own separate
structure. it also comes down at a different angle than the Fore and Aft
Pylons.

I am no engineer but my "feeling" is that the mid Pylon serves as some sort
of load bearing or structural reenforcement member for the entire
structure.

Gads I'm talking to much. on a side note the released those models again
recently i wanted to buy them so i could build a second Battlestar to go
with my "Pegasus". 8)i still have my original Battlestar hanging from the
ceiling in my Office at the house 8P

Bill


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231704.EVL07840@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Kiri Aradia Morgan says
>
>Economic systems such as the one in ST:TNG work the way they 
>do because of labor replacement.  Replicators and robotics 
>and "holograms" (that aren't holograms) ensure that human 
>beings don't have to flip burgers, type other people's 
>correspondence, etc.  I don't know who does the plumbing.  

That's what I liked about Babylon 5.  There were not only 
people who cleaned the plumbing, there were jobless, 
desperate people as well.  I find that any other 
representation of human society is unreal in the extreme.

The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST 
series is that everyone is an officer.

ObTrav: IMTU the advent of new technology hasn't liberated 
too many of the working poor - in fact, in some cases, it's 
just made them the non-working poor.  There's a great 
Stanislaw Lem story along those lines...
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
References: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <02042318594616.03729@avlendris>

On Tuesday 23 April 2002 17:04, you wrote:
> >After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video
> >(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net
>
> seems
>
> >utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was
>
> a
>
> >Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters).
>
> I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 (in fact
> i try to pretend it never happened.)
 

I think we all did that ;->

I don't know if I have the heart to tell you.. you seemed to have put in a 
lot of work... but the vipers launch tubes come out along the "jaw line" of 
the Galactica, along the bottom edge of the "head" part. Also, if you watch 
the vipers emerge, more than one emerge at a time. What I always wondered 
was.... why Didn't they launch them from the "pods", why did they go to the 
trouble of moving them up to the "head"?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:12:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Via San Francisc
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEIKCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: wlewis@mailbag.com
>
>My wife and I will be going to Vietnam at the end of this week to complete
the
>process to adopt a baby boy. On our way back, we will be spending the
evening
>of May 11, 2002 at the Airport Holiday Inn in San Francisco. If there are
any
>fellow Travellers who would care to get to gether with me that evening for
beer
>and/or conversation, please let me know.

When does your flight arrive, and when would you like to meet?  The San
Francisco Airport Holiday Inn is not in San Francisco, nor is it actually
very close to the airport, if I'm thinking of the right hotel -- but that
won't stop us from meeting someone who is really travelling.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <OFC0ADB44D.1ECBB5A6-ON85256BA4.005A572C@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEEEDMAA.tml@downport.com>

No scale, eh? Too bad. That might have been your answer right there :(

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
>
> >Model of what?
>
> Of the Galactica. put out by Revell or Monogram i think. had
[snip]
> but this model was
> not what i would call a real scale model of the ship. it had a number of
> serious Inconsistencies compared to the one you saw every week on
> the show.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:23:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:23:09 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFDA0A27EA.2AAADE7D-ON85256BA4.005EE7AF@pheaa.org>







>I don't know if I have the heart to tell you.. you seemed to have put in a

>lot of work... but the vipers launch tubes come out along the "jaw line"
of
>the Galactica, along the bottom edge of the "head" part. Also, if you
watch
>the vipers emerge, more than one emerge at a time. What I always wondered
>was.... why Didn't they launch them from the "pods", why did they go to
the
>trouble of moving them up to the "head"?

No they don't launch from the head. if you look at the movies during the
launch sequence they once and a while show an over the ship shot. you see
the vipers emerging from the forward part of the Pod. in fact i believe the
shot shows part of the forward portion of the pod where it slops back down
to a point.

Also if you look closely when the viper is on Approach to the landing bay
you will see all these vipers sitting in their launch cradles.

I had someone try to tell me this before but i went back and watched my
videos and confirmed the things i have said.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>; from traveller_tv@yahoo.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:20:37AM -0700
References: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost> <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020423113808.B6061@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:20:37AM -0700, Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
> great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
> money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
> putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
> retiring tomorrow.

It's a Ponzi scheme, pure and simple.

What we really need is for FICA to go into an 401(k) which is paid out
to one after some age, and is inheritable.  I don't mind enforced
savings for the future.  What I mind is being forced into a pyramid
scheme which we _cannot win_.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A Democracy: Three wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.
A Republic: The flock gets to vote for which wolves vote on dinner.
A Constitutional Republic: Voting on dinner is expressly forbidden, and
  the sheep are armed.
          --Anonymous

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 11:46:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 10:46:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>; from martinjd@globalnet.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:50:22PM +0100
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com> <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:50:22PM +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> We don't have a license to do GURPS products. 

You don't need one, any more than East Taiwan Metal & Plastic needs a
license to manufacture a Ford compatible gas cap.  As long as no
patent, trademark or copyright is infringed, one can do anything.  I
believe that interoperability is still protected, even in the
(horrendous) DMCA.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Earth is degenerating these days.  Bribery and corruption abound.
Children no longer mind their parents, every man wants to write a book,
and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching.
                           --Assyrian stone tablet, c. 2800 B.C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <200204231755.g3NHtrJ15709@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> 
>Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:46:08 +0100
>Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
...
>After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on video 
>(hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net seems 
>utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found was a 
>Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters). 

  Well, the box for the Revell-Monogram kit says 45 cm :)  The fluff
text in the instructions says 2000' long, which isn't much better. 

  ISTR that there's a fairly serious treatment of this (based on 
one of the scale models from the series?) at:  www.chrispappas.com
IAC, there _must_ be a Galactica web-ring.

  In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the 
openings on the launch/landing bays.

  And on said Revell-Monogram model (85-3618) those openings are
no more than 4mm on a 400+mm ship. So 800m length looks to be a
minimum; given the proportions, perhaps around 500,000 Dt?

  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:18:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:18:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204231803.g3NI3xJ17762@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
...
>>  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
>>modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a 
>>substantial public investment in infrastructure? It's called 
>>the Third World.
>
>There's a balance to be struck there.  It's possible to spend 
>too much, or make the definition of infrastructure too vague.  

  Heck, yes - bureaucracies (whether corporate or government)
are fully able to make horrid investment decisions. As can
individuals, of course :(

...Also, it's a good thing for governments to invest in 
>areas where venture capitalists fear to tread (rural electric 
>power, the original Internet), but it's also good to know 
>when those things should become private.

  Agree, broadly, although I think there's much merit in the
arguments for maintaining public ownership of some "natural
monopoly" items of infrastructure.

  ObTrav: the IN is _the_ crucial piece of the 3I's public 
infrastructure; the Throne maintains an effective monopoly
on its own ownership. Right?

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231803.g3NI3xJ17762@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019586447.9084.ajackson@ping>

Steven Hudson writes:

>   ObTrav: the IN is _the_ crucial piece of the 3I's public 
> infrastructure; the Throne maintains an effective monopoly
> on its own ownership. Right?

Well, by definition the IN is only controlled by the Imperium.  However, the
Throne does not have an effective monopoly on interstellar naval forces.

However, the other public infrastructure controlled by the throne is just as
crucial (though, once again, not a monopoly).  That's starports.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:35:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:35:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
Message-ID: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was revisiting the idea of the solo adventure as mentioned 
a while back.  And then I was surfing someone's blog today, 
and it had a parody of an Ayn Rand story (she is rather 
formulaic).  And that reminded me of a gizmo I got from an 
old copy of Spy Magazine that helps you become a fashionable 
writer in New York, writing in the style, of say, Bret Easton 
Ellis.

It's a thing with a sliding card, and you make your 
selections and then read your story.  

It would be great if someone could write a plot 
generator/navigator that used CT rules and ran on a Palm.  I 
don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play 
backgammon on the Metro.
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:39:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:39:18 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <200204231834.g3NIYtJ26544@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

...
>  In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
>a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the 
>openings on the launch/landing bays.

  FWIW, there are photos of a scale model of a Galactica Shuttle at:
        http://www.EdMiarecki.com/Formatting/re06.html

  ISTR from the show that those windows aren't small, so that may be
in the 200 Dt range for Trav - guestimates, anyone?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:27:25PM -0400
References: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423124144.B6115@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:27:25PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> I don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
> backgammon on the Metro.

Ah, but there's also solitaire.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
'Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US
 companies like Microsoft.'                         --some AOLer
'To this end we dedicate ourselves...'                     --Don

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:46:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jim Catchpole)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:46:48 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
References: <200204231755.g3NHtrJ15709@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <008801c1eaf6$93b2af60$7b000150@jimcatchpole>

----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.ca>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 23 April 2002 18:54
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?


> >From: Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie>
> >Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:46:08 +0100
> >Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?

>   In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
> a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the
> openings on the launch/landing bays.
>
>   And on said Revell-Monogram model (85-3618) those openings are
> no more than 4mm on a 400+mm ship. So 800m length looks to be a
> minimum; given the proportions, perhaps around 500,000 Dt?
>

Well,  from memory,  the book of the film said 'over a mile long'. It also
claimed the ship was over 200 years old.

I don't know if you could consider that reliable though (my memory or the
book) ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:56:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:56:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
>> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being
tried
>> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
>> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
>> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?
>
>Not off-hand, but that sounds like one of Harry Harrison's from _War
>with the Robots_.

Isaac Asimov, The Caves of Steel, circa 1952.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 12:59:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Tue Apr 23 11:59:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: How long is the Galactica?
Message-ID: <OFBB88BA8A.57A354AF-ON85256BA4.00674941@pheaa.org>





...
>  In all seriousness, "huge" is a good start. Recall that in BSG
>a "shuttle" is a couple of stories tall, and an easy fit for the
>openings on the launch/landing bays.

  FWIW, there are photos of a scale model of a Galactica Shuttle at:
        http://www.EdMiarecki.com/Formatting/re06.html

 If pop up a level on the website he has the Galactica model there. if you
look closely to the pod in some of those pictures you can see the launch
tubes running down the sides of the bay. intermittently you see spots where
gun emplacements are nested in-between launch tubes.

great site.

Bill



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:01:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:01:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <20020423124144.B6115@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231147070.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:27:25PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >
> > I don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
> > backgammon on the Metro.
> 
> Ah, but there's also solitaire.
> 
Where on earth is it that people pay $400 USD for a palm pilot?  I don't
have one, but I have never heard of anyone paying that much for one.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <200204231827.EVP01218@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423153922.00b8bec0@urbin.net>

At 02:27 PM 4/23/02 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>I was revisiting the idea of the solo adventure as mentioned
>a while back.  And then I was surfing someone's blog today,
>and it had a parody of an Ayn Rand story (she is rather
>formulaic).  And that reminded me of a gizmo I got from an
>old copy of Spy Magazine that helps you become a fashionable
>writer in New York, writing in the style, of say, Bret Easton
>Ellis.
>
>It's a thing with a sliding card, and you make your
>selections and then read your story.
>
>It would be great if someone could write a plot
>generator/navigator that used CT rules and ran on a Palm.  I
>don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
>backgammon on the Metro.

You should have gone for the i705.  I keep up with my various Traveller 
PBEM games using my Palm.
You may not get the coverage in the Metro, but for cases like that, I 
download the mail first.
Then I read it, delete & reply.  When I get signal again, I toggle the 
outbox to be sent and empty the trash.

I'm also using Documents to Go store character data.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC5B895.7010800@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>>
>>>Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being
>>
> tried
> 
>>>out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
>>>letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
>>>predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

Wan't that called 'Brillo' ?


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:54:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:54:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
Message-ID: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

<snip about robot policeman stories>

My favorite robot policeman is ED-209.  I have the feeling 
that if they do introduce robot policemen, they will be 
far "dumber" than the ones in the science fiction story 
you're talking about.

Me, I'm waiting for the autonomous infantryman.  Of course, 
you can get a real infantryman pretty cheap, so prices will 
have to come down.  

Of course, you can't beat an autonomous robot infantryman for 
sheer terror.  It's probably a bit harder to kill than a real 
infantryman, and it's probably a much better shot. And if you 
manage to kill it, all you've done is trash some electronic 
parts.  Not very satisfying.  And you probably can't capture 
one - even if you caught one in a net, it's probably too 
dangerous.

I think that the first versions should be some sort of spider-
legged robot along the lines of some of Rodney Brooks' 
creations.  They should hide in the daytime and come out at 
night.  They should be airdropped into the rear, and they 
should be used to spy on things.  Also, if discovered, they 
should shoot every warm body they see.  Maybe even give them 
a blade or two to become an intelligent lawnmower.

The psychological implications are great.  Now, who wants to 
go on patrol tonight, knowing that if you find one of these 
things, it's going to make meat by-product out of most of 
your patrol?

I think a gadget like this is already "do-able"
________________
"Imposed armistices . . . artificially 
freeze conflict and perpetuate a state 
of war indefinitely by shielding the 
weaker side from the consequences of 
refusing to make concessions for peace."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 13:57:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Apr 23 12:57:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
Message-ID: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>

For anyone that might know the answer:

While working on my Mire landgrab, I have come up with a question that I hope someone on the TML might know an answer for.  (Preferably a correct one.  :-) )

What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain in order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?  The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.  Can that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without affecting Mire's orbit?

Thanks.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 14:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 13:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
Message-ID: <200204232004.EVR06043@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Mike West" asks
>
>What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must 
>maintain in order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?  
>The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny 
>sun at a distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is 
>assigned to .4 AU.  Can that second planet orbit closer 
>than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without affecting Mire's orbit?
>

I would think that would depend on the mass of the planets 
involved.  Earth is at 1 AU, so Venus and Mercury have to be 
at fractions of an AU.  They both seem to have nearly 
circular orbits, so they don't seem to be affecting each 
other in a major way.

________________
Employees smoking
Off company property
I'm doing their work

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 14:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 13:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


>> We don't have a license to do GURPS products. 
>
>You don't need one, any more than East Taiwan Metal & Plastic needs a
>license to manufacture a Ford compatible gas cap.  As long as no
>patent, trademark or copyright is infringed, one can do anything.  I
>believe that interoperability is still protected, even in the
>(horrendous) DMCA.

Whether legal or not (HIGHLY debatable) more than one lawsuit has happened=
 over just such activity. While the suit may or may not end up thrown out=
 in the long run, personally I don't have the time, resources, or desire to=
 deal with the possibility. Without an OK from SJG on the issue it ain't=
 gonna happen (and yes we have approached SJG about this already).

Hunter




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 14:28:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 13:28:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423165305.2B007279D2@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E1706qU-0005s2-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> shudson@lightspeed.ca says
> >
> >  Assuming that you're serious, you do realize that there's a
> >modern short-hand for those nations who haven't had a 
> >substantial public investment in infrastructure? It's called 
> >the Third World.
> >
> 
> There's a balance to be struck there.  It's possible to spend 
> too much, or make the definition of infrastructure too 
> vague.  Also, it's a good thing for governments to invest in 
> areas where venture capitalists fear to tread (rural electric 
> power, the original Internet), but it's also good to know 
> when those things should become private.
> 
> Not Exactly ObTrav: I firmly believe that instead of spending 
> money on the Space Shuttle, the government should be spending 
> on an initiative to get companies to build a low cost means 
> to get into orbit.  Any idea that could work should be on the 
> table.  Companies should get incentives for working in 
> space.  We need to get off this rock and make money, instead 
> of doing science in a tin can in orbit.

This would only work if there were viable companies that actually 
had some desire to do any form of space industry.  This is not true. 
Space is regarded (rightly) as pretty risky and (IMHO wrongly) as 
pie-in-the-sky by pretty much any large corporation you can name.  
The L-5 folks tried to get various companies interested in solar 
power sats in the 70s and early 80s and we all see where *that* 
went.

IMHO, until both the costs and the the risks are reduced *and* the 
government gives serious inventives, we will see no private space 
industry.  I'm also guessing that costs and risks will only be 
significantly reduced when NASA (or some other national space 
agency) builds a nice large space station that various companies 
can simply more their operations into.

Sadly, the only private individuals who are working hard to get into 
space are pretty darn fringe (like the nut out in Eastern Oregon who 
is building his own personal suborbital rocket) and none of them 
have enough money to make a descent show of it.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 15:06:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 14:06:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Hydrogen Wells
In-Reply-To: <3CC3930A.D2B8F94D@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20423.134050.0q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Richard Wilson writes:
>>So this is the reason that starports are on the planet's surface and 
>>highports aren't as common.
>
> http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id=%7B1F54AEED-A34B-41
> 1B-B95F-972AB119DD85%7D
>
> JOY! Hydrogen wells! JOY! That will make the Downports in systems
> without gas giants or other significant surface water so much easier to
> deal with. I can see it now...

Thing is, worlds without significant surface water may not have much
subsurface hydrogen. After all, it's the water that the bacteria *make*
the hydrogen from.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 15:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 14:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>; from trav@RPGRealms.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:24:51PM -0400
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com> <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net> <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <20020423153918.A6692@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 04:24:51PM -0400, Hunter Gordon wrote:
> 
> While the suit may or may not end up thrown out in the long run,
> personally I don't have the time, resources, or desire to deal with
> the possibility.

This makes me sad--that someone cannot do something which is perfectly
alright for fear of having to defend its rightness.

Of course, Mr. Miller could always state in his license terms that
Traveller licensees can only be compatible with him and themselves,
not with one another.  _That_ would be quite proper, although I'm not
certain why he'd do it.  Perhaps to ensure a market for his own books,
or something.

Incidentally, can anyone tell me if GT or T20 is required to be
compatible with Miller's future work?  By which I mean will the
licensees be required to print conversions, or is Miller explicitly
allowed to print his own?  Just curious.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
  Anulos qui animum ostendunt omnes gestemus!
  Let's all wear mood rings!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 23 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
References: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <20020424075041.A7785@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mike West wrote:
> What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain
> in order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?

That depends very much on the planets.  Their orbits could actually
overlap in distance, like those of Pluto and Neptune.  Such an
arrangement can be quite stable, because each planet keeps the other
one in position with resonance effects.  In such a case, one planet
has an orbital period that is (on average) an exact ratio of the
other, e.g. 3:2.

It's probably not even too uncommon an arrangement: despite our
current inability to detect any but the largest planets about other
stars, we have already found one system with two planets having orbits
that are not very far apart.


>  The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a
> distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.
> Can that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU)
> without affecting Mire's orbit?

Well, not without *affecting* the other's orbit, since every planet
affects every other in some small way.  Without disrupting the other,
certainly.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:06:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:06:08 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Gygax quote
In-Reply-To: <3CC499EA.1020901@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20423.140845.6w2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> D&D may not have been pure in a mechanical sense, but like BASIC, and 
> 'You have SPAM!' it is now the de-facto standard of comparison..the 
> reason it got there is because it was 'the fustest with the mostest'.
>
> (says an old-timer who remembers back when 'September on the Net' 
> actually meant that it was, indeed, September...ahh those halcyon 
> pre-AOL, pre-Prodigy, pre-Compuserv days...)

Actually, I was on the Net before Compuserve had access to it. And on
Compuserve as well. They weren't all that bad. The sysopsa on the
Forums mostly kept folks in line. 

AOL on the other hand...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:14:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:14:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020423153918.A6692@4dv.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEECDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <029201c1eae7$081fa0c0$f0ea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <20020423114048.C6061@4dv.net>
 <200204231624510702.D2A14517@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <20020423153918.A6692@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <200204231817330495.D3087258@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>> While the suit may or may not end up thrown out in the long run,
>> personally I don't have the time, resources, or desire to deal with
>> the possibility.
>
>This makes me sad--that someone cannot do something which is perfectly
>alright for fear of having to defend its rightness.

Yes but unfortunately in today's environment, it is all too likely to=
 occur. Good IP attorneys are ungodly expensive, a realization I have=
 already had to deal with more than once since I entered this business.

>Of course, Mr. Miller could always state in his license terms that
>Traveller licensees can only be compatible with him and themselves,
>not with one another.  _That_ would be quite proper, although I'm not
>certain why he'd do it.  Perhaps to ensure a market for his own books,
>or something.

That is something I doubt Marc would ever considered.

>Incidentally, can anyone tell me if GT or T20 is required to be
>compatible with Miller's future work?  By which I mean will the
>licensees be required to print conversions, or is Miller explicitly
>allowed to print his own?  Just curious.

I can't speak for GT, but I assume they have a license similar to our own=
 in which we are not required to be compatible with future work by Marc.=
 Then again it would not need to be required in our case as I would happily=
 add stats to support any new material by Marc if he wished us to do so. It=
 was my choice to include CT stats (with Marc's ok) and material in our=
 products, not something required by my license. I just wanted to also=
 support CT and the reprints. 






From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:33:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:33:29 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <00cf01c1eb16$c0dab0d0$a3e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C1EB1F.0FF78DC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Okay, I asked this before but all my mail is gone in the great HD =
explosion.

I need a cover for the Diaspora Phoenix novel; there's not money =
available. We have a mockup of the cover but the actual pic needs to be =
done. Anyone care to help out?


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses

------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C1EB1F.0FF78DC0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Okay, I asked this before but all my =
mail is gone=20
in the great HD explosion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I need a cover for the Diaspora Phoenix =
novel;=20
there's not money available. We have a mockup of the cover but the =
actual pic=20
needs to be done. Anyone care to help out?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C1EB1F.0FF78DC0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
References: <3CC55510.8412.A77E03@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC5E36E.801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Well the importance of even centurions in much of that strife argues 
> for them being considered officers - very few coups in the modern world 
> are started and managed by sergeants.

Au contraire. A number of coups in Africa have been started by Non-coms. 
IIRC one of the Liberian coup leaders started as a Master Sergeant, 
wasn't he? Robert someting or another...

Also, I believe it was a number of Non-coms who started one of the coups 
against Noriega in Panama, just before the US invasion.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:47:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:47:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423165307.DA28C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020423153147.00a543e0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:19:04 -0600, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

>Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
>nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
>but it's an interesting way to look at it.

Well, that follows naturally from the idea that every adult should own and 
carry a gun.

Unfortunately, this kind of situation (at either scale) seems to require 
people who aren't stupid.  While the increased selection pressures may or 
may not eventually produce such a population, I don't think I'd like to 
experience the weeding-out process, any more than I'd like to live in his 
Coventry.  I /like/ civilization, thank you very much.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 16:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <02042316460813.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <001001c1eb19$a772e880$0f01a8c0@terry>

> After a friend got the entirety of season 1 Battlestar Galactica on
video
> (hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of the ship. The 'net
> seems
> utterly void of technical specs or what have you: the best i've found
was
> a
> Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters).
> 
> Anyone have any clue?

It seems there is some discussion on the matter. Check out this link.

http://ravensbranch.tripod.com/galacticasize.html

Regards,

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020423153147.00a543e0@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231558080.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Kelly St.Clair wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:19:04 -0600, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> 
> >Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
> >nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
> >but it's an interesting way to look at it.
> 
> Well, that follows naturally from the idea that every adult should own and 
> carry a gun.
> 
Yes, but...

Guns can kill one person.  A firefight, even a large one, is over when
it's over, although some gunshot wounds don't kill immediately.

Nukes don't work that way.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:12:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20020423153147.00a543e0@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <20020423165307.DA28C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423190649.00cb5d28@192.168.0.1>

At 03:40 PM 4/23/2002 -0700, Kelly St.Clair wrote:
>On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:19:04 -0600, "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>>Speaking of Heinlein, he argued in one of his essays that _every_
>>nation should have a single nuke.  I don't know if I'd go that far,
>>but it's an interesting way to look at it.
>Well, that follows naturally from the idea that every adult should own and 
>carry a gun.
>Unfortunately, this kind of situation (at either scale) seems to require 
>people who aren't stupid.  While the increased selection pressures may or 
>may not eventually produce such a population, I don't think I'd like to 
>experience the weeding-out process, any more than I'd like to live in his 
>Coventry.  I /like/ civilization, thank you very much.

I just finished reading Coventry.  Coventry was his "your right to swing 
your fist ends at someone else's nose" system.
That was America after the Second Revolution, that was civilization.
If you rejected Coventry or were denied Coventry, you were sent to the 
walled off section where the strong ruled the weak.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17A35@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

The emphatically polite Larsen:
Either that or barracks ashore for ALL personnel.  The SSNs and SSBNs have
always housed their crews ashore when the vessel is in port.  The rest of
the Navy should do the same.  Putting up with cramped living conditions
would be tolerable during deployments IF you knew you'd be returning to
barracks back in port.  As it stands now, most naval personnel live in the
factories where they work.

Mikey:
Australian DOD has always had onshore quarters for Naval personnel, or
provided rent subsidies and the like to live in town (where appropriate).
That's weird the US DOD does not...

Oh my god. 

That means Australia is more advanced than the US in Naval Living Conditions

Permission to shout bravo at an annoyingly loud volume!

PS I had a tour of our Freemantle class Patrol Boats. Apparently the washing
machines, which were designed to use sea water, never really worked so a
crewman gets saddled with laundromat duty when they pull into port, which is
only once every 6-8 weeks, and has to wash almost all the clothing of the
ship's company. They all wear these overall things and often for many days
at a time. As a civilian I often find it hard to comprehend the privations
these people have to deal with which is why it is easy for me to call them
sir or ma'am - cause they sure as hell have earned it. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <02042318594616.03729@avlendris>
References: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
 <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020423183217.00ac19d8@mail.earthlink.net>

At 06:59 PM 4/23/2002 +0100, Brian Caball wrote:
>On Tuesday 23 April 2002 17:04, William Lane wrote:
> > I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 (in fact
> > i try to pretend it never happened.)
>
>
>I think we all did that ;->

IMHO, there was precisely 1 good episode of Galactica 1980, "The Return of 
Starbuck".

Of course, IIRC it was actually an unfilmed Battlestar episode

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:41:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:41:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net>
References: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca> <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

>There are things for which it makes sense that they be state-run
>(e.g. power & water distribution, roads &c.) but not state-subsidised
>(i.e. you pay for what you burn/drink/whatever).=20

Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
bathing and sanitation...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 17:59:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 16:59:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231653550.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Stephen Tempest wrote:

> "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:
> 
> >There are things for which it makes sense that they be state-run
> >(e.g. power & water distribution, roads &c.) but not state-subsidised
> >(i.e. you pay for what you burn/drink/whatever). 
> 
> Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> bathing and sanitation...

You can lead a man to water, but can you make him bathe?

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:03:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:03:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>; from tml@stempest.demon.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000
References: <200204231553.g3NFrOJ13242@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca> <20020423100815.B5708@4dv.net> <3cc5ef35.9888714@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020423175758.A7026@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> 
> Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> bathing and sanitation...

That means you want the rest of the state to fund your desire to live
where it's expensive (those subsidies have to come from somewhere).
That's hardly a good thing.

Better to let living in the overcrowded city become as expensive as it
is, and then watch as people leave, thereby easing crowding.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Cloning forces us to ask some hard questions.  For example,
which person, the original or the clone, gets to wear the
goatee and be evil?                    --Stewart Nicholls

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:15:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:15:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423175758.A7026@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>

Robert A. Uhl writes:
> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > 
> > Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> > would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> > bathing and sanitation...
> 
> That means you want the rest of the state to fund your desire to live
> where it's expensive (those subsidies have to come from somewhere).

Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
being paid for by the occupants of the city.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:29:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:29:41 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <p04330100b8eb83b1f99b@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:49 AM -0700 4/23/02, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>This kind of economic system will ONLY work if no one has a "shit job".
>
>If I had my druthers I would spend every day writing.  I might or might
>not make any money on it, but that's what I'd do.  I do not work as a
>physicians' administrative assistant for the sheer pleasure of it.  It's
>annoying and boring much of the time, even though I believe in what we are
>doing here.

This is correct.

A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more people living on 
public assistance.  (It may not be 50%, but it will depend on what 
the level is set at).

What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a 
fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who 
think they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to 
complain that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and 
agitate for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact 
that lead to such a system in the first place, since the rationale 
that supports it can be easily used to support increases, and whether 
society wants to try and "buy" them off).

There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family 
(?).  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those 
who went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this 
is the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of 
"non-working" class in Europe....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <02042316460813.03729@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020424002902.17680.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> wrote:
> Hey Guys
> 
> After a friend got the entirety of season 1
> Battlestar Galactica on video 
> (hmm.....) we had a discussion on the Dimensions of
> the ship. The 'net seems 
> utterly void of technical specs or what have you:
> the best i've found was a 
> Star Wars Rpg version (1,400 meters). 
> 
> Anyone have any clue?
> 
> -Brian
> 
> 
  >>
  FOR SHAME!!!!

  BSG has a very strong 'cult' following online. try
these sites:

http://www.battlestargalactica.com/ This is Richard
Hatch/Capt Apollo's site. He's pretty much the leading
light of the effort to revive the series;

http://www.tecr.com/galactica/index.html This is the
BSG Tech Site; there are some oddities in his science,
but it's pretty good, all the same;

http://www.bsgtigger.com/stories/bsgfan.html
http://www.bsgtigger.com/stories/bsgcross.html
These two are strictly fanfic sites, aka, a
conglomeration of people who love the show, and love
to write.

It gets a little stronger every year, as more people
rediscover it, or find it for the first time.

ON RANT

And, yes, although most of the fans feel sorry for the
actors/writers, et al, from '1980', it is almost
universally despised and ignored. 

From the pilots' first airing, it stayed in the top 20
until it was canc'd.

I swear, network tv could never get it's act together.
When ABC canc'd BSG, they replaced it with 'Mork &
Mindy', which was doing pretty well at the time; not
even Robin Williams could save that time slot. 

1980 was aired 6 weeks after ABC called Glenn Larsen
into their offices and gave him the green light for a
new season...as long as it was ready in 6 weeks. 

Now, you know why '1980' sucked so bad.

OFF RANT

MACessna
  >>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:37:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:37:38 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <001001c1eb19$a772e880$0f01a8c0@terry>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204240954460.7432-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:

 Fantastic subject and at least IMTU it is not OT. As i incorporated much
from that show for MU. In fact the concept of a Battle Star flaoting
around popping in and out of jump space or seen as ships leave or enter.
Like a ghost ship. Has been a running part. My 3I has any site where
Colonial artifacts are found as a red zone.

 Oh yes i have an original Viper model and the rocket. Both in need of
repair. Bought the Galactica at a con a while back. Still in the box. Yeah
I even have a few hundred of the trading cards. Was/am a big fan of the
show. FWIW I talked to some members of the fan club right after they had
returned from the IIRC 15th anniversary con in Calif. They were at OryCon
tht year. Acording to what I was told. Glen doesn't like the 1980 either
and most fans disregard it as never happening. Best they will call it is
"Galacta-spit"

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:41:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:41:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost> <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 09:20:37 -0700 (PDT), Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
>great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
>money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
>putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
>retiring tomorrow.  While I don't know where all the
>money went, I know that much went to pork barrel, and
>some went to folks who never paid that much in.
>
><SNIP>

Actually, the Social Security fund was never intended to operate in
the manner you state.  Your "Instead" is, in fact, the way it was
intended to operate from the start.  If that hadn't been the case,
Social Security wouldn't have been able to start paying benefits at
its inception.

That original structure was founded on the idea that the pool of
wage-earning taxpayers would always exceed the pool of recipients.  As
the US went through the demographic surge known as the Baby Boom, the
pool of taxpayers expanded greatly while the pool of Social Security
retirees wasn't greatly increasing.

With that large surge of money going into the system, it represented
an irresistible opportunity to the politicians to expand the benefits,
which is exactly what they did (arguably, not too much of a pork
barrel).  Further, the US government also changed the law to allow use
of the Social Security surplus to pay for some of the Reagan deficits
(which, depending upon your viewpoint, might be where the bulk of the
pork might be found).

Now, as the members of the Baby Boom start approaching retirement,
there are fewer members of the pool of wage-earning taxpayers who are
paying to support a demographic bulge of retirees.  Had the government
instead simply banked the surplus at a modest interest rate, it would
not be seeing the oncoming retirement crisis (instead, we would have
had a different crisis some time ago).

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:53:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:53:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <20020424000942.7DBCE27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020424000942.7DBCE27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <27vbcu01a2v6aa5bssq5jr9je1trnjboi5@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:03:51 -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
wrote:

>Where on earth is it that people pay $400 USD for a palm pilot?  I don't
>have one, but I have never heard of anyone paying that much for one.

Except for the wireless-enabled Palms, they don't cost that much - but the
high-end Sony Cli (a licensed PalmOS box) does retail for that kind of
money.


--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 18:56:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Apr 23 17:56:10 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>

From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au>

     "Australian DOD has always had onshore quarters for Naval personnel, or 
provided rent subsidies and the like to live in town (where appropriate).  
That's weird the US DOD does not..."


Mr. Hughes,

     The US DOD provides shore housing or rent subsidies for married naval 
personnel or those with children.  It's the single folk who get the sticky 
end.  In some low rent areas, single crew are able to club together and rent 
apartments or homes.  Alas, USS California's home port was NAS Alameda, 
smack dab in the middle of the SF Bay area.

     "Oh my god.  That means Australia is more advanced than the US in Naval 
Living Conditions.  Permission to shout bravo at an annoyingly loud volume!"

     Permission gladly granted!  Oz is more advanced than the World's 
Biggest Banana Republic in many areas, brewing comes first to mind.

     "...a crewman gets saddled with laundromat duty when they pull into 
port, which is only once every 6-8 weeks, and has to wash almost all the 
clothing of the ship's company. They all wear these overall things and often 
for many days at a time."

     Good grief!  Sounds as if those PBs could be detected by odor alone!  
The 42 young men in my berthing compartment had laundry done twice weekly.  
Three or four days worth of skivvies, socks, and dungarees can get rather 
"high".  Pa Whipsnade, a Korean police action vet, visited my berthing area 
once and described it succintly; "Feet and flatulence."  He professed to 
prefer any one of several foxholes he dug.

ObTrav - Why aren't stewards paid more?  Providing creature comforts for 
crew and passengers surely must be very important.  Good stewards control 
morale in the uniformed services and can lure paying high passengers to your 
nondescript Beowulf.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEODMAA.tml@downport.com>

Whether intentional or not, it still fits the textbook definition of a ponzi
scheme. And a bad idea from the start. The fact that it got bigger and
messier just follows as the night the day. Putting money away in
interest-bearing accounts would be even worse. The best thing we could do is
end the program, encourage retirement savings, roll the cost of phasing it
out into the general fund and be done with it. While we're at it, phase out
the rest of the federal retirement system and send it all private. At least
if the politicians and bureaucrats had their cookies in the jar with ours
they might be more apt to keep an eye on the Enrons and Arthur-Andersens out
there, instead of being in bed with them.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of JR Holmes
>
> Actually, the Social Security fund was never intended to operate in
> the manner you state.  Your "Instead" is, in fact, the way it was
> intended to operate from the start.  If that hadn't been the case,
> Social Security wouldn't have been able to start paying benefits at
> its inception.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700
References: <20020423175758.A7026@4dv.net> <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020423190732.A7743@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
> being paid for by the occupants of the city.

Then why subsidise?  You're forcing the well-off to pay for water and
electricity for the less well-off.  To an extent this may be
appropriate, but I wonder to what extent, exactly.  Anyone deserves
enough water for drinking to keep from dying and bathing to keep
leprosy at bay, but any more than that should be on a pay-as-you-go
basis.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and writing an exact
man.                                                            --Bacon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>; from grote1731@hotmail.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 12:39:15AM +0000
References: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423191108.B7743@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 12:39:15AM +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> 
>      Permission gladly granted!  Oz is more advanced than the World's 
> Biggest Banana Republic in many areas, brewing comes first to mind.

?!?  Come visit Colorado sometime.  I'll take you on a tour of
breweries to make any man of refined taste want to move here.  And I
am given to understand that Oregon is our superior.

Whereas the Australian homebrewers I've encountered have uniformly
lamented the qulity of the local beer, and admitted that they--or at
least their countrymen--are most interested in brewing a high-proof
product.

> ObTrav - Why aren't stewards paid more?

Does the IN have stewards?  Ours got rid of them:-(

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There is no problem which cannot be solved by the judicious application
of firepower.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CC55510.14365.A77D36@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC6AF7A.14446.75EB6C@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 9:20, Paul Walker wrote:

> The welfare system should exist for two reasons,
> helping those who can't work to survive, and
> encouraging those who can work to do so. 
> Unfortunately, that is not what government officials
> use it for.  They use it as a kick-back for votes. (I
> do confess to a US-centric view of politics, but I
> would imagine it is similar.)

That doesn't seem to happen here, even tough beneficaries are a 
significant portion of the electorate. In fact the usual way of using 
them to get votes is to come up with a new way a shafting the 
unemployed without it looking like you are.

> Because the government will be likely to take more
> than they need.  Someone will present the idea that we
> can't lower the poverty level but we may not get
> enough taxes to pay next year, so we better take a
> little extra to ensure that we can pay the poverty
> level in the future.  Not to mention that we need to
> take in more taxes for our pork barrel.  
> 
> I think the US Social Security Retirement fund is a
> great example.  We were supposed to be putting our
> money away for our retirement.  Instead, we are now
> putting our money away for the retirement of the folks
> retiring tomorrow.  While I don't know where all the
> money went, I know that much went to pork barrel, and
> some went to folks who never paid that much in.

With that sort of thing it's no wonder your tax rates are highish, the 
US social spending is immense and yet in some ways there is less to 
show for it than here is in the UK, even though the US is much 
wealthier.
 
> Maybe I'm not making sense.  Suffice it to say, that I
> don't trust the government to make the right
> decisions, and the negative tax seems to put much
> trust in the government to make the right decisions.

As far as I can see it doesn't do anything that the current systems 
don't (both here and in the US) - it just does it in a more direct and 
traceable way.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:20:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:20:56 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

As an infantryman, I remember my first "short" field 
exercise, in which I didn't get a real bath or have clothes 
laundered for a mere 20 days (I've been without a bath or 
clothes washed in the field for as long as three months).

After I returned to the barracks (to "raise morale" the 
colonel had the idea that we would march back; I thought the 
real reason was to save fuel costs for the helicopters).  
This was only about 10 miles, but you work up a good sweat 
that acts like "gravy" on smelly clothes.

My roommate got back first (we were two men in a three-man 
room).  He had time to throw his stuff in the washers and get 
a shower before I got back.  He then stopped me at the 
door. "Take off your s__t out there, and then come in and get 
a shower.  You're not bringing that smelly s__t in here."

I had to run my clothes through the washer three times before 
the water would rinse clear - it was nearly solid black the 
first time around.  After I had taken my shower, the clothes 
smelled like a dead animal.  And the socks -- well, they had 
turned from issue green to black, with stuff growing on them.

After the three month stint with no bath, I just threw the 
uniforms away - the stench was incredible.

I've woken up frozen to the ground in the morning, and I've 
been hidden well enough that passing soldiers took a leak on 
me.  Twice.  (tip: never hide under the edge of bushes, 
because men feel compelled to piss there) 

Having to live with foot odor and flatulence doesn't sound so 
bad.

ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you 
can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes 
about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people 
in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek 
across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be 
more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a 
plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful 
smell to the unwashed.
________________
Employees smoking
Off company property
I'm doing their work

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:13:54PM -0400
References: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423192811.A8321@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:13:54PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> After the three month stint with no bath, I just threw the 
> uniforms away - the stench was incredible.

I wonder how much of that was a side-effect of the exertion you must
have udnergone.  I ask because as a Scout I and my brothers noted that
several camp staffers were rather proud of not showering all summer.
The pattern we detected was that for the first few days there was no
problem, then for the next several weeks they reeked to high heaven
and then they began to _lose_ the smell.  In fact, they began to smell
more like the environment than aught else.

But they _did_ launder their clothes.  So perhaps that makes a
difference.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
That's how you know you're hooked on something; when it makes you forget
to drink beer.                     --Paul Mather, commenting on The Sims

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>The pattern we detected was that for the first few days 
>there was no problem, then for the next several weeks they 
>reeked to high heaven and then they began to _lose_ the 
>smell.  In fact, they began to smell more like the 
>environment than aught else.
>

Well, until I washed when I got back, that was the case.  
After a few weeks, I couldn't smell myself, and I don't think 
that anyone could really smell me, unlike the people who 
smelled like soap.

I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago, 
and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how 
you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin 
gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.

________________
Employees smoking
Off company property
I'm doing their work

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 19:58:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 18:58:16 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:46:21PM -0400
References: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423195559.A9418@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:46:21PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> Well, until I washed when I got back, that was the case.  
> After a few weeks, I couldn't smell myself, and I don't think 
> that anyone could really smell me, unlike the people who 
> smelled like soap.

I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head hurts:-(

> I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago, 
> and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how 
> you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin 
> gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.

Interesting.  I don't think I'm ever going to get a chance to test any
of this out, though...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I once successfully declined a departmental retreat, saying that on that
day I planned instead to advance.                    --Alan J. Rosenthal

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <00cf01c1eb16$c0dab0d0$a3e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8EB60FE.39D2%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

And I'm also a  full time idiot - sorry about that post everybody.

Joe Webb 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
Message-ID: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head 
>hurts:-(
>
After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless 
they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which 
case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.

My roommate could smell me when I came back, after he had 
bathed.  

In the field after a few weeks, I could smell bathed people 
at a considerable distance if they were upwind of me.  But it 
didn't work the other way for them (if I was upwind of them).
________________
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:14:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:14:28 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
References: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV32IKcQEF2a9jE11o0001c2c0@hotmail.com>

John T. Kwon wrote,

>I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago,
and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how
you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin
gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.<

That is one of my favorite movie lines.
As you note, he was joking. He was asked why he didn't bathe. His response
was that body oils, combined with sweat and dirt formed a natural barrier to
water. (He was dirty because he didn't bathe, he didn't bathe because he was
going to get dirty in a trench anyway.)
Later in the movie when they come upon a group of female Soviet soldiers, he
climbs into a hot tub with one of them fully clothed.

A really fun movie.
:)


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:18:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:18:32 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <B8EB60FE.39D2%jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B8EB62AD.39D7%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

on 4/23/02 7:05 PM, Joe Webb at jwwebb@earthlink.net wrote:

> And I'm also a  full time idiot - sorry about that post everybody.
> 
> Joe Webb 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

OK, idiot that is too fast on the draw - the original post that shouldn't
have gone was bounced.

So return to your home folks, nothing to see here (unless you count somebody
slinking under a rock a sight to see).

Joe Webb


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240113.EWB05725@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/23/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you
> can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes
> about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people
> in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek
> across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be
> more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a
> plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful
> smell to the unwashed.

An excellent point.  Which is why some hunters use MOPP gear to hide their
own scent.  I was always partial to Shaklee's Basic-H.  One of those
biodegradable soaps that proto-enviornmentalists (like my parents) used in
the late '70.  I don't even know if it's made anymore.  But it had no scent.
I carefully hoarded my supply for years.

(A quick search of the web shows it's still out there, though it looks
different).

I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

I've never had anyone pee on me, but I have had an unhappy policeman step
close enough to me that I could plainly make out the stitching on his Corfam
shoe in the middle of the night.  Camouflage does work.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:43:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:43:16 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8EB6984.582B5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/23/02 7:07 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> "Robert A. Uhl" says
>> 
>> I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head
>> hurts:-(
>> 
> After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless
> they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which
> case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.
> 
> My roommate could smell me when I came back, after he had
> bathed.  
> 
> In the field after a few weeks, I could smell bathed people
> at a considerable distance if they were upwind of me.  But it
> didn't work the other way for them (if I was upwind of them).

The amazing power of the nose.  After a while, it doesn't smell the stinks
it's around, but can easily detect new smells.  Quite an engineering marvel.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Combined Gurps/Megatraveller Year 1116(Long)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F110VniSnRMWuL0000016a@hotmail.com>

For your reading pleasure, I've combined the timelines from Gurps Traveller 
& Megatraveller. This is for the Year 1116, with the rest of the years 
following shortly.

Graham

========================================================================
GURPS TRAVELLER / MEGATRAVELLER TIMELINE COMPARISON.

Year: 1116

Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                           131-1116	(GURPS)
FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH

Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian was killed today when his personal gig was 
destroyed in a massive explosion of unknown origin. The gig was inbound to 
the palace from Dulinor's flagship, the cruiser Sargon, when it failed to 
change course in response to traffic control instructions, and then vanished 
in a massive fireball while in deep space.

Craft were immediately dispatched from Sargon to search for survivors, and 
were soon joined by vessels of the Imperial Navy. Search and rescue 
operations continue, but searchers acknowledge that the extremely violent 
nature of the explosion make th e possibility of any survivors increasingly 
small.

The archduke was en route to an audience with the Emperor, the subject of 
which was not available at press time. Emperor Strephon has ordered the 
Imperial Navy to take charge of a full investigation of the explosion in 
cooperation with other authorities, and has ordered Sargon and her crew into 
quarantine at the Imperial Naval base at Capital for the duration of the 
investigation. Naval vessels are in the process of tracking down any and all 
vessels that were in the area and have ordered tapes of all communications 
to and from the gig subjected to the most rigorous analysis.

The Emperor expressed his deep sadness at the news, and has sent a formal 
proclamation of his condolences to the people of the Domain of Ilelish and a 
private letter to Dulinor's wife and daughter. Funeral arrangements for the 
Archduke have not been announced.

Also killed in the blast were the Archduke's Naval aide Volante Imprey, the 
crew of the gig, and a number of other individuals. A full list of victims 
is not available at this time.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                           132-1116	(GURPS)

In a tersely-worded press release issued today, General Mueni Arap Rutan, 
commanding officer of the Imperial Guard, announced that Colonel Hiroshi 
Enera, commander of the Ilelish Regiment of the Imperial Guard, and three 
other officers of the same regimen t have submitted their resignations to 
the Emperor, effective immediately.

None of the officers could be reached for comment, and General Rutan refused 
to comment further except to say that the officers involved had all cited 
personal reasons for their resignations.

The Ilelish Regiment was serving its normal month-long period as honor 
guards in the Imperial palace when the resignations occurred, and continues 
to serve in that position. No replacements have been appointed to the 
vacancies thus created - the regiment is currently the personal command of 
General Rutan. A political motivation for the resignations is suspected, but 
no comments from anyone involved have been forthcoming.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 132-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Emperor Strephon Aella Alkhalikoi was assassinated at 1517 hours local time, 
132-1116, in the Grand Reception Hall of the Imperial Palace above 
Capital/Core. In the ensuing firefight, the Empress Iolanthe and the Grand 
Princess Iphegenia were also killed, along with the Aslan Yerlyaruiwo 
ambassador, twelve Imperial Guards, and a number of bystanders.

In the following minutes, Archduke Dulinor of Ilelish appeared before the 
cameras of the Reception Hall, claimed the crown of the Emperor by the right 
of assassination, and scattered holocrystals documenting his claim to the 
surviving crowd. He ascended the steps of the dais and sat on the iridium 
Throne briefly before leaving in the company of his bodyguard.

System Control Central reported tracking the Archduke's cruiser leaving the 
Capital system minutes later. Fleet elements are reported in pursuit.

Capital has been placed under martial law. Off-planet transportation has 
been suspended temporarily. Naval headquarters has issued a statement that 
the situation is stable and under control. Rioting is reported in the city.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 133-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The Imperial Palace above Capital has been sealed by Naval Security troops. 
Dulinor is rumored to remain concealed in the palace with a company of 
bodyguards. It remains unclear whether Dulinor fled the Capital system 
yesterday aboard his cruiser, or if he remains in the Palace. Occasional 
plasma flashes have been reported along the Grand Concourse.

Imperial officers at the scene refused comment.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 134-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Captain Sir Gerals Spirlandin, commanding the Honor Company of the 2nd 
Imperial Marine regiment, denied reports that Duke Varian, Strephon's nephew 
and heir apparent to the Iridium Throne, was killed in skirmishes within the 
Imperial Palace yesterday.

Spirlandin, 32, of Ibaru/Zarushagar, said, "The situation is under control, 
but identities of persons in the Palace remain unconfirmed."

News Service personnel have not yet been allowed inside the Palace.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 135-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Preparations for Emperor Strephon's funeral tomorrow continued without 
incident. Empress Iolanthe will be buried at the same time. Grand Princess 
Iphegenia will be buried Thirday.

The Admiralty confirmed today that the Imperial Palace has been cleared of 
disloyal elements. The apartments accorded Dulinor in the Palace have been 
retaken, with no sign of the Archduke.

The body of Prince Varian, until today heir apparent to the Iridium Throne, 
was recovered from the Imperial Palace this afternoon, and now lies in state 
alongside the Emperor in the central Hall of Nobles beneath the Moot Spire. 
Varian's funeral is scheduled for Thirday.

Crowds of mourners continue to file through the Hall of Nobles. Responding 
to the press of crowds, last minute arrangements have been made to keep the 
hall open through the night.

The Office of the Mint has suspended production of the cr1 coin pending 
coronation of the next Emperor. A generic sunburst design has been adopted 
as a temporary replacement.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 136-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Emperor Strephon and Empress Iolanthe were buried today with full state 
honors. The procession from the Hall of Nobles to the Alkhalikhoi section of 
the Imperial Park in the shadow of the Palace moved slowly and without 
incident.

Prince Lucan, Varian's younger brother, and now heir apparent to the throne, 
appeared briefly at grave side, leaving under heavy security immediately 
after the ceremony.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 137-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Following simple burial ceremonies for Grand Princess Iphegenia and Prince 
Varian, the Office of the Emperor today announced that Prince Lucan had 
formally ascended the Iridium Throne in private ceremonies in the Imperial 
Palace.

Shortly thereafter, Duke Simalr of Ushra, speaking for the Moot, charged 
that private ascension ceremonies are invalid, adding that any assumption of 
the powers of the Imperium requires the consent of the Moot.

Emperor Lucan, communicating through his seneschal, exercised the Imperial 
power to dissolve the Moot for one year. Duke Simalr of Ushra, speaking for 
the Moot, denied the legitimacy of Lucan's action in a strongly worded reply 
which was released simultaneously to the news services.

A meeting of the Moot later in the day failed to achieve a quorum. Duke 
Simalr is reported under house arrest.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                           137-1116	(GURPS)

Informed sources at the palace say that Emperor Strephon will appoint two 
new Archdukes in the coming year: Lady Isis Arepo Ilethian will be appointed 
archduchess of Ilelish, succeeding her father, the late Archduke Dulinor. 
Duke Norris Aella Alledon will be appointed the first Archduke of Deneb.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                         137-1116	(GURPS)

Prince Varian Paulo Alkhalikoi, nephew of the Emperor Strephon, announced 
today that he has decided to leave Capital on an extended vacation from the 
Imperial court.

"Life at the Imperial Court is a wondrous experience," said the prince, 
"however, I feel that I am missing an even more wondrous and varied 
experience to be had by getting away from the pressures of the palace and 
seeing more of the various societies and cultures that make up the Imperium. 
I hope to spend some time getting to know a few of the 11,000 worlds a 
little better." Varian announced no itinerary, but said he plans to try to 
travel incognito to the greatest extent possible.

The Emperor has not commented officially on his nephew's announcement, but 
indicated privately that he feels that travel cannot but help to improve 
anyone's character. Varian's brother Lucan has chosen to remain at court, 
and refused to comment on his brother's announcement, other than to wish him 
a safe journey.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                         140-1116	(GURPS)

In separate proclamations issued today, the Emperor appointed Lady Isis 
Arepo Ilethian of Dlan as Archduchess of Ilelish, and Duke Norris Aella 
Alledon of Regina as Archduke of Deneb. Formal investiture will take place 
at the palace on 001-1117. Both candidates will be present, and the Emperor 
will personally invest them with the regalia of their office, an unusual 
occurrence in view of the vast distances involved. Special task forces of 
the Imperial Navy have been dispatched to Dlan and Regina to escort the 
candidates to Capital.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                         145-1116	(GURPS)

Admiral Jori Mallory hault-Viswanath of the Imperial Navy's public relations 
branch announced today that the Navy was pursuing a number of lines of 
investigation into the explosion that killed Archduke Dulinor Astrin 
Ilethian fourteen days ago. "In cooperation with other agencies, we are 
concentrating massive resources on the investigation of the incident. We 
have recovered fragments amounting to over three-quarters of the gig (the 
largest massing over 8500 kilos, the smallest less than 200 grams) and are 
subjecting them to the most rigorous possible forensic examination. The 
gig's maintenance records have been fully examined, and every member of the 
crew of Dulinor's flagship Sargon has been interrogated. We have tracked 
down every craft that was in the near vicinity for twelve hours before and 
after the explosion. We are still not certain whether we are investigating 
an act of terrorism, a multiple homicide, or a freak accident."

Asked about the possibility that the explosion was an assassination, Admiral 
hault-Viswanath remarked that while that possibility cannot be eliminated, 
there is no direct evidence of any assassination plot. "That is one of 
several lines of investigation being actively pursued." he said, "We have 
orders from the highest level to investigate every possibility, no matter 
how remote."

Asked if remains of any of the victims of the massive explosion had been 
recovered, Admiral hault-Viswanath stated that while fragmentary remains had 
been found, none had been positively identified as those of the Archduke. 
Asked if this was unusual, other sources responded that in explosions of 
this size and power, it is unusual to find any remains at all, let alone 
anything substantial.



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               152-1116	(GURPS)

The monthly changing of the guard at the Imperial Palace took place today, 
but palace watchers say the ceremony is a little late. Imperial guard 
uniforms all look pretty much alike, especially to those unfamiliar with 
them, but a local military enthusiast whose hobby is Imperial uniforms says 
the differences are like night and day, and to her trained eyes, the Antares 
guard has been on duty for almost three weeks.

"It is fairly easy to pick out the Aslan, " says Minaro hault-Yunami, author 
of Uniforms and Equipment of the Imperial Guard, 1080-1110, " and the 
Marines are in maroon, so they stick out too. But the difference between 
Antares and Illelish is in certain details of the collar tabs and shoulder 
boards, which are pretty hard to pick out on the video screen." How does 
Minaro, who has access only to the same videos of the court as the rest of 
us ordinary citizens, know the difference?

"Every day when the Emperor enters the Long Hall on his way to the Iridium 
throne, he is preceded by an honor party of the guard. On the first day of 
the week, the honor party always wears battle dress instead of the normal 
full dress uniform. The Illelish Guard's battle dress has a black stripe 
outlining their right plastron - the Antares Guard is blank. It's a subtle 
difference, but it's there for anyone with halfway decent eyes."

What does it all mean? "It's a speculation, but I think the Ilelish Guard 
were pulled from duty so they could mourn their Archduke. It's highly 
unusual, but it's not completely unknown. The last time something like this 
happened was in the reign of Arbellatra in 632."


Jewell/Spinward Marches (1106-A777999-C)                  158-1116	(GURPS)

After months of investigation, the Office of the Judge Advocate General for 
the Imperial Navy has dismissed charges of war profiteering brought against 
Gishan Ryan Khaasira. A spokesperson for the JAG Office stated that "we have 
found no evidence to support the accusations made by certain individuals 
concerning the activities of former Lt. Khaasira during the Fifth Frontier 
War. As such, our investigation has ended and we consider the matter 
closed."

Gishan Khaasira is a former Naval intelligence officer who transferred to 
Supply after the ship on which he served, the Agidda, suffered heavy damage 
from a Zhodani attack. Khaasira then spent the remainder of the war working 
as an aide to the Quartermaster-General, Admiral Rafael Sukhamaran. It is 
because of the mysterious disappearance of several shipments of supplies 
during his tenure there that unnamed sources pointed the finger at him.

While the JAG Office has now officially cleared Lt. Khaasira of all 
wrongdoing, he has elected to resign his commission from the Navy. Khaasira 
cited the deaths of his sister during the war and of his father recently as 
the reasons for his resignation. He intends to return home and use his 
skills to rebuild his family's merchant business after years of hard times.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 200-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Unrest among the populace continues following the assassination of Strephon 
and the questionable rise to power of Emperor Lucan. Fanned by opponents 
such as Duke Simalr of Ushra, the flames of unrest have sparked rioting in 
major population centers and intense quarreling among members of the Moot.

Police and Imperial Guard troops have kept these isolated outbreaks under 
control, but their frequency and intensity are on the rise.


Vland/Vland (0307-A967A9A-F) Date: 202-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Emperor Strephon was assassinated by Archduke Dulinor of Ilelish 132-1116. 
The Central Authority issued a simple statement early today regretting the 
Emperor's death, but calling on all citizens to remain calm and remember his 
passing with dignity.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               212-1116	(GURPS)

In-system space ship traffic was snarled today when the arrival of an 
unexpected Naval courier vessel was vectored to Capital ahead of all other 
incoming vessels, causing considerable dislocation in orbital traffic 
control.

A spokesman for System Port Authority refused comment other than to state 
that the vessel had the highest military priority, and its commander 
insisted on being cleared for approach immediately. TNS reporters managed to 
locate the shift supervisor at Capi tal Far Orbit Control, who was somewhat 
more talkative on receiving assurances of anonymity.

"The transponder indicated that it was an Imperial Navy vessel," the 
supervisor said, but when the neutrino signature analysis came through, I 
recognized it as an Imperiallines TI-class. Now, a Tango Ida with a Navy 
squawker, is a little unusual. I've wor ked this duty eight years, and I've 
only seen that twice...we have a lot of TI-class ships in and out of system, 
but normally they have civilian transponders. This one demanded clearance 
straight through to the Naval Base, and we had to give it to them on account 
of the transponder priority code, even though it meant I had to spend the 
next three hours unsnarling everything." When asked what he thought it all 
meant, the supervisor winked at this reporter, and said: "Somebody had 
something they wanted to g et dirtside real fast, and they couldn't wait for 
the Xboat. Maybe Prince Lucan ordered some extra Tokay escenzia for one of 
his little parties."



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               215-1116	(GURPS)

Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian will be honored at a memorial service to be 
held in the Hall of Nobles beneath the Moot Spire on 230-1116. Because 
Dulinor's body has still not been found, mourners may view a holographic 
representaion of the Archduke, whi ch will lie in state in the Hall for 10 
days prior to the ceremony.

Emperor Strephon will deliver the main eulogy. The memorial service itself 
will incorporate aspects of the Dlani Virasan religion, but will not be a 
Virasan funeral service, as that will be held on Dlan, Dulinor's homeworld. 
Although not a follower of the Virasan faith, Dulinor was said to be deeply 
interested in its tenets, which state (among other things) that true 
believers must die a non-violent death on Dlan to attain true enlightenment.


Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 217-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

In the shadows of the Imperial Palace, a particularly violent clash between 
police and rioters has rocked the capital. For nearly three hours the 
skirmishes continued, as demonstrating citizens forced their way toward the 
palace against strict orders of the authorities.

Nonlethal means were finally used to disperse the crowd, but not until forty 
citizens and at least three riot policemen were killed.

A spokesman for Emperor Lucan has stated that the Emperor, though aware of 
the problem, was not concerned and did not at any time leave the palace for 
his own safety.



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)	               230-1116	(GURPS)

A memorial service for Archduke Dulinor Astrin Ilethian was held in the Hall 
of Nobles beneath the Moot Spire today. Emperor Strephon, his wife Iolanthe, 
his daughter Grand Princess Ciencia Iphegenia, and the emperor's nephew 
Prince Lucan were present. The Emperor delivered the eulogy, of which the 
following are selected excerpts:

Dulinor was my friend. And Dulinor was a madman.

Harsh words? No. Rather, a tribute.

Great spirits are not normal, they are abnormal. In their ceaseless questing 
for a world which has not yet been but which they seek to bring about they 
show their alienation from the world around them. These aliens are those 
whom we call leaders, visionar ies, prophets, poets, artists - madmen. 
Dulinor was one of them, and he stood at their head.

What does it take to see the universe as it is and say it is not enough? To 
say that it can be another way that it has never been before? These are not 
the thoughts of a contented man, one who is well-adjusted to the world as he 
finds it. Well-adjusted is a compliment we throw around easily, but it is 
not a compliment that applies to a leader. Because leaders are never 
well-adjusted; they are always discontent, they always seek a universe that 
does not exist, and they strive to make that universe a reality. This 
striving is the opposite of being well-adjusted, it is madness.

In all the years I knew him, Dulinor never ceased striving, and I loved him 
for it.

Talent, we are reminded by the ancient philosopher, is the capacity for 
opposites. If so, then Dulinor was perhaps the most talented of us all. 
Cloaked in contradictions, like the black garb he wore, imposed upon him by 
a faith he did not embrace, he serv ed and defied, agreed and challenged. He 
was unpopular, and indispensable. He went to his death believing in the 
course of his life, and not caring if others understood. His life and death 
are perhaps a warning to those of talent who would follow after him, that 
the candle that burns brightest burns briefest. Let all talented madmen 
remember that the life of service comes at great cost, but let them never 
shrink from it.

Dulinor died in the blackness that he wore in life, and as in that life, 
never being fully of it, but also not rejecting it.

We will not see his like again.

Roget/Spinward Marches                  231-1116	(GURPS)

Mercenary and former member of an elite Darrian unit Htarlehtoir was today 
invested as ko (clan chief) of the Feiftiusaea Clan, one of four which 
jointly control Roget.

This is an unusual clan in that it has both Aslan and human prides; 
Htarlehtoir is the first human to act as ko for any of the four clans.


Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G)                  244-1116	(GURPS)

Sector Admiral Hutara Astrin Ilethian, brother of the late Archduke Dulinor 
of Ilelish, has announced that he is resigning his commission, effective 
immediately. In a short press release read by the admiral's newly-appointed 
aide, Lieutenant Tadashi Conacht hault-Musillo, the admiral stated that he 
is resigning in order to devote his full attention to the management of the 
family lands and business interests now that his niece has been appointed 
Archduchess in her father's place.

The admiral stated that his niece would now be busy with government duties, 
and would no longer be able to devote the time necessary to keep the various 
Ilethian family interests running properly.

Asked why the admiral had not made the announcement himself, the lieutenant 
stated that the admiral has been ill the last few days, and while he was 
well on his way to recovery, his doctors felt the added strain of a public 
appearance might delay his recovery.


Sacnoth/Spinward Marches                  244-1116	(GURPS)

The University of Sacnoth today launched an appeal for funds to purchase 
rare Aslan artifacts. Professor Elke Ragnarsdottir, leading the appeal, 
said: "Unfortunately, neither the University nor the government are willing 
to provide funding, so we must appeal directly to the public."

She continued, "These pieces are important because they may prove that Aslan 
ranged as far coreward as Mithril, centuries before they were thought to 
have reached the Marches. This is a golden opportunity to learn more about 
them, but they need to be studied scientifically, and the best chance of 
that is for the University to acquire them."

The artifacts were found on Mithril in 1106, and have since been in the 
hands of a private collector, who is now selling them to raise money for 
other projects.

Other bidders are likely to include the Darrian government and Aslan 
traders. The Darrian Embassy declined to comment on why their government 
might want to buy the pieces.

If she fails to acquire the pieces, Professor Ragnarsdottir plans to use 
whatever money is raised to mount an expedition to Mithril in the hopes of 
discovering more items at the original site.

Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G) Date: 245-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The Archduke's official state visit to Capital ended abruptly with his 
surprise return to Dlan and his immediate call for a full-media press 
conference on the steps of the palace for later in the day.

After appearing wearing an elaborately fashioned crown, the Archduke began 
his statement with a list of wrongs and abuses perpetrated by Emperor 
Strephon. He concluded with the startling statement: "The Emperor is dead! I 
have dedicated my life to the people of the Imperium. I claim the Iridium 
Throne by right of assassination, and shall rule this Imperium as Emperor 
Dulinor."

The stunned public then listened as the Emperor called for a complete 
mobilization to seize all of the Imperium for his sacred cause. He made a 
public and official request to Admiral Hutara, his brother, for the Ilelish 
Fleet to side with him in his sacred struggle to gain his rightfully secured 
place on the throne.

The Emperor Dulinor retired to his chamber without answering questions. A 
subsequent statement detailing the new Emperor's trip to Capital and the 
assassination of Strephon on the Iridium Throne itself. The statement 
concluded with an account of Dulinor's ascension of the Throne to the well- 
wishing cheers of millions of Capital's citizenry, followed by a selection 
of patriotic video cassettes.

Celebrations have been organized on Dlan and throughout the sector as the 
populace is encouraged to honor the beginning of new age for the Imperium 
and Ilelish sector.


Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G)                  245-1116	(GURPS)

Puzzled citizens of Dlan who wondered why every entertainment channel was 
airing re-runs during prime-time last night now have an answer. An unknown 
agency reserved two hours of air time last night and cancelled a week or so 
ago, without telling anyone what the reservation was for.

The Dlan Minister of Communication's office had no formal comment, but a 
high official in that office stated "Somebody's out several mega-credits. 
They reserved the time almost a year ago, and paid by a bank draft from a 
numbered account, then last wee k we got a message that cancelled the 
reservation and told us to run whatever we wanted. It was too late to try to 
sell the time elsewhere, of course, so we let individual regional managers 
decide."

Speculation is rampant in the local entertainment industry, and guesses 
range from a new holofilm technique that didn't pan out to a massive (and 
very costly) practical joke. One rumor was a news flash of great importance, 
but no one can agree on what that might have been.

Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G) Date: 248-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Sector Admiral Hutara and his fleet officers made an official announcement 
that the Ilelish Fleet has declared for Dulinor. In a brief but ancient 
ceremony, Hutara offered his dagger to Dulinor, who solemnly accepted, and 
then briefly embraced his brother.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  262-1116	(GURPS)

After months of intensive investigation, the Imperial board of inquiry into 
the explosion of Archduke Dulinor's personal gig on 131-1116 is unable to 
physically confirm that Dulinor died in the explosion, or that he was even 
aboard the gig when it was destroyed. Officially, he is still listed as 
"missing, presumed dead." They have been able to confirm that the explosion 
was no accident. So far, this has been their only conclusion.

"We have testimony from Sargon's crew that the archduke and his staff 
boarded the gig," said an unnamed source close to the investigation, "but we 
haven't been able to find a trace of remains - well, not his remains, 
anyway." According to testim ony of several of the crew, Dulinor's flagship, 
the cruiser Sargon, launched the gig with the normal crew of two plus a port 
guide from customs, Archduke Dulinor and fourteen members of his personal 
staff, and three bodyguards plus assorted baggage for the party. The 
explosion was so powerful that not a single complete body has been 
recovered, although DNA and other evidence has accounted for sixteen of the 
nineteen passengers.

"The pattern of the wreckage indicated three separate, simultaneous 
explosions, calculated to pulverize the entire passenger compartment," the 
unnamed source continued. "The explosions all originated in the compartments 
where baggage would ordinarily b e stored." Dulinor's own standing orders, 
however, provide for constant supervision of the loading process by his 
bodyguards, and further require that the security staff who guard and 
oversee loading of the gig must accompany it when it departs. If these 
requirements were followed, it would seem that at least one of the 
perpetrators was killed along with the intended victim.

The unnamed source emphasized that investigators are still not convinced 
that Dulinor was the target of the explosion, although "At this point . . . 
that's the way to bet."



Dlan/Ilelish (1021-A8D1ADE-G)                  265-1116	(GURPS)

What started as a minor protest rally at the government center on Dlan 
escalated into a major civil confrontation between police and local 
citizens. A large crowd protesting what they called the Imperial Navy's 
cover-up of events surrounding Archduke Dulinor's death assembled without a 
permit and became hostile when ordered to disperse.

More than 600 rioters ransacked offices of the Imperial Navy, the Imperial 
Interstellar Scout Service and the Office of Calendar Compliance, all 
located in the downtown Imperial office building. Local police and 
constabulary forces dispersed the crowds within a few minutes, using 
non-lethal crowd-control devices. Sixteen people, none of them police, were 
treated and released at local medical centers.

The destruction apparently was haphazard. The Naval office, which suffered 
the heaviest damage, was primarily a public-relations and recruiting center. 
At the time of the riots, only civilian employees were present.


Amdani/Daibei (2034-A727A88-E) Date: 265-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Heightened high-level conferences and military activity in the area have 
done nothing to quell rumors that Core sector is in civil unrest. Statements 
from the nobility have been universally, "No comment."

As of this date, all naval personnel have been put on special alert, all 
shore leaves have been canceled, and a complete media blackout of naval 
exercises has been imposed. The Admiralty has no comment.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  270-1116	(GURPS)

Prince Lucan Alkhalikoi, nephew of the Emperor Strephon, announced today 
that he will imitate his brother Varian and take an extended tour of the 
Imperium.

"My brother and I often discussed taking a grand tour of the Imperium 
together," said the prince, "but we could never agree on the specifics, and 
when he departed earlier this year on his own, I felt compelled to remain at 
Capital for personal reasons. I have recently decided however, that I, too, 
must become more familiar with the Imperium, although I intend to do it in a 
different way than my brother."

Prince Lucan went on to say that he has not yet completed plans for his 
trip, and that his itinerary remains open. He did confirm that he will delay 
his departure until after the archducal investiture ceremony on 000-1117, so 
that he may attend on beha lf of his branch of the Imperial family.

The Emperor had no official comment on his nephew's decision, but sources at 
the palace indicate he approves.




Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  282-1116	(GURPS)

Commo Tech First Class Gani Riisha is having trouble getting his possessions 
back from the Imperial Navy. Gani Riisha was one of the crewmembers of 
Archduke Dulinor's flagship Sargon, and his possessions are, for some 
reason, relevant to the invest igation into the explosion that killed the 
Archduke and several others on 131-1116.

"They questioned me quite intensively," Riisha said, "because I was on duty 
on the bridge when the gig blew up. I expected them to want my signal logs 
and everything official, but why do they need my uniforms and my personal 
kit? They released me from cus tody after a few days, and they've been very 
generous in supplying me with replacement clothing and such, but there are a 
number of items of a personal nature I'd like to get back. They can't even 
tell me when I can expect to see them."

Gani is not alone. While most of Sargon's crew members (and their 
possessions) have been released from custody, the Imperial Navy still 
retains the flagship itself, some of the crew's personal gear, and three 
members of the crew itself under tight security.

The Imperial Navy Public Relations Office refuses to comment, other than to 
say that the personnel and items are necessary to the ongoing investigation, 
and that the crewmembers are not suspects at this time.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  289-1116	(GURPS)

The Imperial Navy has released several transcripts relating to the death of 
Archduke Dulinor in an explosion on 131-1116. The transcripts describe 
communications between the gig and inner-system traffic control, but also 
include selections from the gig 's flight-data recorder.

The gig's last response to traffic control was at 13:22:34-131-1116, when 
the gig's pilot acknowledged and carried out an instruction to alter course. 
A short time later (13:39:48-131-1116), traffic control issued a course 
correction instruction, but the gig did not acknowledge. The gig's 
navigational transponder ceased broadcasting at 13:41:06-131-1116, which is 
within seconds of the time the gig's flight-data recorder lost contact with 
all instruments, and approximately the time several other ships in the area 
reported a bright flash from the gig's coordinates.

All in all, the data released confirms the Navy's contention that several 
near simultaneous explosions destroyed the gig, killing all aboard 
instantly. When asked about the gig's cockpit voice recorder, Navy spokesmen 
responded that the instrument was severely damaged in the blast, and that it 
was still undergoing reconstructive analysis.



Quiru/Lunion (2321)                  289-1116	(GURPS)

The gas-giant planet Plistii, in the Lunion subsector of the Spinward 
Marches, underwent a violent shudder beginning on 341-1115, causing some 
small concern for the inhabitants of Quiru, one of Plistii's satellites 
(Quiru/Lunion 2321). A panic among the world's 3,200 citizens was averted by 
quick-thinking MainLines Shipping officials, who were able to gain a few 
hours advance notice of the disturbance and stage an evacuation drill while 
the event took place.

"We got everybody in one place, within sight of the emergency evacuation 
vessels, and then told them what was going on," said a company spokesman. 
"We gave everybody the day off with pay, and started playing dance music and 
serving food. It turned into a holiday, and had things turned sour w e could 
have had everybody on the evac ships and out of there in a couple of hours."

Details are still sparse, but the event appears to have been either a 
massive storm front in the gas giant, or else some kind of "gasquake" deep 
in the giant's liquid-hydrogen core. Company officials are monitoring the 
gas giant for further events, but so far nothing other than a few minor 
aftershocks has been detected.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  292-1116	(GURPS)

TNS sources learned today that Imperial Navy intelligence operatives may 
have foiled a plot to assassinate Lady Isis Arepo Illethian. Confidential 
sources suggest that a series of arrests on Capital and elsewhere in the 
sector were a result of a long-term undercover operation combating terrorist 
activity in Core sector. According to the sources, the purpose of the 
assassination was to galvanize anti-Imperial feelings in the Domain of 
Ilelish and spark a revolt there by blaming the assassination on Emperor 
Strephon.

A spokesman for the Imperial Navy refused to comment on TNS reports about a 
plot, and would neither confirm nor deny the existence of any undercover 
operations in Core sector or elsewhere. The spokesman did state that both 
Lady Isis and Archduke Norris were traveling to Capital under a Naval 
escort, and that their precise schedules and itineraries were classified.


Amdani/Daibei (2034-A727A88-E) Date: 309-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Official announcement of Emperor Strephon's assassination has reached the 
sector. The nobility has also released a statement encouraging the populace 
to have faith in the systematic and peaceful shift of power to Strephon's 
heir, Duke Varian.

Subsequent messages from Core sector have indicated that Varian was killed 
in combat in and around the palace area. Prince Lucan is apparently the new 
Emperor of the Imperium.



Capital/Core (0508-A586A98-F) Date: 310-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Lucan announced that unrest in Core sector has been dealt with successfully. 
All citizens are encouraged to have faith in the new Emperor, despite 
unsubstantiated rival claims to the throne.

Emperor Lucan also announced that the Core Fleet is on the move towards Dlan 
to hunt down the criminal Dulinor. His actions warrant death, and he will 
certainly be brought to justice.


Terra/Solomani Rim (0207-A867A69-F) Date: 313-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

In an unexpected move, much of the Imperial Rim Fleet has been concentrated 
and many reservists have been placed on alert. No substantial explanation 
has been forthcoming.

General Yoshtiru of the Terran Home Guard has called for a high level 
command conference of the commanders of all troops stationed on Terra.


Terra/Solomani Rim (0207-A867A69-F) Date: 322-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

Military installations in Asia, Africa, and North America have been closed 
to civilians. All active duty personnel worldwide have been recalled from 
leave or furlough.

An unofficial source stated that large shipments of materials have been 
arriving at these closed installations. The exact nature of the shipments is 
unknown, and no official Home Guard spokesman will comment on the issue.


Rhylanor/Spinward Marches                   324-1116	(GURPS)

Subsector law enforcement agencies and the general public were today warned 
by the Imperial Navy to be on the lookout for Miguel Casimir, also known as 
Casimir Clarke or Miguel Clarke, who is wanted for a variety of crimes 
including impersonating an Imperial officer, theft of Imperial property, 
piracy and murder.

Commander Miles Cullan of the Imperial Navy said, "Casimir -- or whatever 
name he is now using -- recently escaped from a maximum security prison at a 
classified location, killing two guards in the process. We believe that he 
will attempt to dupe loyal ci tizens into hiding him by claiming to be the 
victim of a government cover-up. Do not be deceived, this man is a vicious 
animal. "

Commander Cullan explained that because of the charges of piracy, the Navy 
has been asked to lead the investigation. He went on to say that the 
fugitive has escaped before, and on that occasion claimed to be a member of 
an Imperial Research Station, and t hat Imperial and megacorporate interests 
were pursuing him to suppress a radical new power generation technology he 
had developed after examination of Ancient artifacts. "Casimir may use this 
story again," said Cullan, "and let's be completely clear: There is 
absolutely no truth in it."

Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 330-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The ducal household announced that Duke Norris of Regina will travel to 
Rhylanor to meet with representatives from several key worlds in the 
Spinward Marches and Deneb sectors. The conference is scheduled to cover 
"economic matters", a general term used when the agenda has not been made 
public. The exact nature of the meeting has not been disclosed.

In related matters, a rumor that the Duke has recently received a private 
communication from Emperor Strephon has not been confirmed by official 
sources.


Romarr/Spinward Marches                   331-1116		(GURPS)

The ruling council of Romarr today authorized Spinward Spice & Spirits, LIC, 
to export 250 tons of dust-spice without paying the normal duties and 
tariffs.

This measure, which will allow SSS to undersell its competitors, is likely 
to save the troubled company from bankruptcy.

A company representative, Captain Mark Spencer, denied charges of corruption 
or nepotism, stating the a business case for deferred payment of duty had 
been presented to the Council and accepted by them.

When asked whether he thought the shipments were at risk from ihatei 
marauders, Captain Spencer replied that SSS would be hiring additional 
security staff.


Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 340-1116	(MEGATRAVELLER)

The ducal household announced that Duke Norris was elevated to the rank of 
Archduke of the Domain of Deneb by the hand of Emperor Strephon on 091-1116 
in recognition of his activities in the late Fifth Frontier War.

The Duke plans a trip to Capital to personally accept the Emperor's 
blessing.


Nusku/Sol                  351-1116				(GURPS)

At the request of the Marquis of Nusku, the planetary Duma today ordered 
military protection for an archaeological dig on New Kodiak Island. 
Civilians with no connection with the scientific team have been barred from 
approaching or la nding on the island.


Duma spokesman Ian Direma stated that the Marquis had gathered information 
suggesting that the dig site was the focus of a conspiracy to loot 
archaeological relics. When pressed for details, Direma referred the 
journalists conducting the interview to Marquis Yushchenko's office. The 
Marquis could not be reached for comment.

New Kodiak Island is known to have been the location of a minor command 
center for Terran forces during the Interstellar Wars period. The Reinhardt 
Foundation has been excavating the site for three years, thus far without 
any results of interest to the general public.


Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  354-1116		(GURPS)

The ships carrying Lady Isis Arepo Illethian and Duke Norris of Regina 
arrived in system today. TNS has learned that the fleets, which merged at 
some unspecified point along their respective paths, actually arrived in 
Core sector some time ago, and hav e spent the intervening period in 
security isolation at an unspecified location.

A press conference is scheduled for next week, shortly before the ceremonies 
that will confirm Lady Isis as Archduchess of Ilelish and Duke Norris as 
Archduke of Deneb.



Capital/Core (2118-A586A98-F)                  356-1116		(GURPS)

The Imperial Navy has issued a report on its investigation of Archduke 
Dulinor's death, ending several months of speculation. The report concludes 
that Dulinor was killed on 131-1116 when the gig on which he was a passenger 
vanished in a massive explos ion. The report further states that, in the 
opinion of the investigators, the explosion was intentional, and represents 
an act of assassination by a party or parties unknown.

Investigators could not find any remains, but DNA extracted from tissues 
recovered from the wreckage was conclusively identified as being Dulinor's. 
The report also concludes that one or more of Dulinor's assassins also 
perished in the explosion, but i s unable to reach any conclusion on whether 
this was a deliberate act of suicide.

Unofficial sources close to the investigation state that there was 
considerable controversy among investigators as to whether the DNA finally 
confirmed as Dulinor's came from his body or from medical stockpiles carried 
as part of his luggage (many nobl es travel with medical supplies cloned and 
cultured from their own tissues, but it is not known for certain whether 
Dulinor followed this practice).

The complete text of the report was delivered to the Emperor yesterday, and 
will be released to the press after a copy has been delivered to Lady Isis, 
the archduke's daughter and heir.




Capital/Core                  357-1116			(GURPS)

Informed sources within the Imperial Ministry of Justice today confirmed 
that the formal search for the assassin or assassins of Archduke Dulinor 
will be conducted by a special team formed from members of the Imperial 
Navy, the Scout S ervice, and the Ministry of Justice, among others.

No details as to membership were made available, but the sources indicated 
that the team will have nearly unprecedented investigative powers and will 
consist of top investigators from several agencies other than those named 
above.

The team will report directly to the Emperor, and has already begun 
operations based on the Imperial Navy's investigation into the explosion of 
131-1116, which killed the Archduke and the crew of his personal gig.


Aristotle/Solomani Rim (1740-A269985-E)                  360-1116		(GURPS)

The Confederation Navy today announced the conclusion of their quadrennial 
SWIFT RETRIBUTION XXIV readiness exercise. "Civilian traffic in the Gemini 
Subsector may safely return to normal operations," said Commissioner Ignacy 
Aszykkrol , public affairs spokesman for Doan Naval Base. "We are aware of 
the inconvenience these maneuvers cause," he continued, "but the price of 
freedom is eternal vigilance." Commissioner Aszykkrol refused to comment on 
the nature of the exercise or the elemen ts involved, saying only that the 
event had been "entirely satisfactory, good training and a complete 
success."

Later, Lloyd's of London and the Traveller's Aid Society issued a joint 
bulletin rescinding the subsector-wide Amber travel advisory posted for 
Gemini Subsector on 060-1116.


Capital/Core                  364-1116			(GURPS)

Despite the Imperial Navy's conclusions to the contrary, a small number of 
people believe that Archduke Dulinor is still alive. Almost from the start, 
according to sources in the Ministry of Justice, reports of the Archduke's 
survival were received, although the vast majority of them could be 
dismissed by investigators after minimal investigation

An anonymous source reveals that almost a thousand separate reports of 
"Dulinor sightings" were filed with the Imperial Navy, and that more than 
two dozen investigators were assigned to follow them up. Every report was 
found to be without factual basis , but this has not prevented the growth of 
persistent rumors that Dulinor either survived the explosion of Sargon's gig 
or was never aboard the vessel to begin with.

"A lot of people see someone they think resembles the late Archduke," our 
source said, "and let their imaginations run away with them." Evidently, 
many of the "sightings" occurred almost simultaneously in locations 
separated by several parsecs. Even the most outrageous reports were 
completely investigated, our source assured us, and all of them proved to be 
". . . a waste of time and resources."



Lanth/Spinward Marches (1719-A879533-B)                  365-1116	(GURPS)

An Imperial board of inquiry has declared the 10,000-dton passenger liner 
S.S. Sundance lost with all hands. The Sundance, one of Al Morai's Sunfarer 
class of luxury express liners, has been missing since she fail ed to make 
her scheduled planetfall at Lanth on 118-1114, en route from Regina to Mora. 
She was carrying 3,084 passengers (2,054 in cold sleep), 577 crew, and 419 
dtons of cargo when she left Ghandi/Spinward Marches (1815-B211455-A) on 
110-1114. The loss is officially listed as "cause unknown; presumed 
misadventure."

This ruling paves the way for the settlement of claims brought by Sundance's 
shippers and passengers' next of kin. Al Morai officials steadfastly deny 
allegations of improper maintenance or use of unrefined fuel as possible 
explanations for the ship's disappearence, citing their excellent 
operational record and impeccable safety rating from the Imperial Grand 
Survey.


Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

Speaking on condition that he not be quoted, a retired officer of the 
Imperial Interstellar Scout Service confirms that there may be a kernel of 
truth behind Colonel Ruys de Bessier's allegations that Imperial POWs are 
still within the Zhodani Consulate but that they are there of their own 
volition.

"I won't even begin to summarize the reasons, but in almost every war a 
certain number of people perform what might be considered questionable acts 
and are hesitant about returning home . . . some of them take advantage of 
the chaos of war to assume new identities, others simply take a liking to 
their new home and decide not to leave." The officer stopped short of saying 
any Imperials were guilty of treason, but offered the following: "Imperial 
intelligence knows that a number of serving members of the Imperial military 
during the Fifth Frontier War were Zho sympathizers. I think that is pretty 
much what we have here."

The officer concluded: "It doesn't make sense anyway . . . why would the 
Zhos keep POWs this long after the war? You can spin all sorts of crackpot 
conspiracy/espionage scenarios, but most of these are fodder for cheap 
action/adventure holos."



Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

Former Imperial Army Intelligence officer Colonel Ruys de Bessier alleged 
today that the Zhodani Consulate continues to hold POW's captured during the 
Fourth and Fifth Frontier Wars. Colonel de Bessier recently resigned from 
the Imperi al Army citing "matters of conscience."

During a hastily-organized press conference today, Colonel de Bessier 
presented what he described as "overwhelming evidence that many of our 
comrades continue to languish in Zhodani prisons. This is a travesty of 
civilized behavior, and I, for one , refuse to keep silent any longer."

Colonel de Bessier maintains that from 2,000 to as many as 10,000 Imperial 
personnel are held at a number of locations within the Zhodani Consulate, 
and that seven of these locations have been "positively identified." Colonel 
de Bessier refused to disclose by what means these identifications were 
made.

Imperial Military sources declined to comment on these allegations.

A spokesperson for the Zhodani Consulate described the allegations as 
"laughable and lamentable" and "yet another impediment to lasting peace" but 
refused further comment.


Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

General Mueni Arap Rutan, commanding officer of the Imperial Guard, 
announced the appointment of Colonel Murnas De&#8217;Angelo as commander of the 
Ilelish Regiment of the Imperial Guard. The appointment of Colonel 
De&#8217;Angelo, former executive officer of the Antares Regiment of the Imperial 
Guard, finally fills the vacancy created with the retirement of Colonel 
Hiroshi Enera earlier this year. The regiment spent the intervening time 
under the personal command of General Rutan.

There remain three other vacancies in the Ilelish Regiment, also created by 
unexpected retirements earlier in the year, but neither General Rutan nor 
Colonel De&#8217;Angelo would comment on how soon those positions would be filled.


Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

The Imperial Navy has finally returned the personal possessions it impounded 
from Commo Tech First Class Gani Riishao earlier this year. Riisha was on 
duty on Sargon's bridge on 131-1116, when the gig containing Archduke 
Dulinor exploded, killing all aboard.

Gani received no explanation from the Navy, other than a short letter 
apologizing for any inconvenience he may have suffered, and inventorying his 
possessions.

"Nothing seems to be missing," Gani said, "But they still haven't told me 
why the kept everything for so long. I'm more than a little curious."



Capital/Core                  365-1116			(GURPS)

In a short press release issued today, Prince Lucan, nephew of Emperor 
Strephon, announced that he has changed his mind about embarking on a tour 
of the Imperium.

"My application to the Imperial Naval Academy has been accepted," said the 
prince, "and I will serve a term as an officer upon my graduation." Lucan 
explained that he had been too hasty in announcing his intention to embark 
on a grand tour, and decided , after considerable thought, that he did not 
want to imitate his brother Varian too closely. "I have always been taught 
that each of us must chart his own course." Lucan said, "and I finally 
concluded that I had been too hasty in my earlier decision."

Emperor Strephon had no comment on his nephew's decision, except to state 
that he would support Lucan's decision.


Antares/Antares                  365-1116			(GURPS)

In a joint press conference at the archducal station of Cerise, Archduke 
Brzk and Adkhar Shirushi, head of the sector's Church of the Stellar 
Divinity, announced that the Star of Jyestha will be sent on tour throughout 
the Imperium. Th e Star is a religious artifact believed to have belonged to 
Jyestha Yerubid, the founder of the Church during the days of the First 
Imperium. As there are many autonomous churches of this faith throughout the 
Imperium, this gesture on the part of the Anta rean church is of 
considerable importance.

An itinerary and timetable for the Star's journey has yet to be completed, 
but both Archduke Brzk and Shirushi agreed that it would be present on 
Capital in time for the festivities surrounding the emperor's Golden 
Jubilee.


Jesedipere/Spinward Marches                  365-1116	(GURPS)

A cell of the anti-Vargr group Superioriti has sprung up on this backwater 
world of the Spinward Marches. For the past ten years, Jesedipere has been 
home to an increasing number of Vargr refugees fleeing the depredations of 
the Kforuz eng corsair band. Because of the world's lack of a central 
government, clashes between its original human inhabitants and the Vargr 
newcomers are common. The rise of Superioriti will only exacerbate the 
situation.

The commander of the local Scout base, Nanda Theiss, has attempted to act as 
a mediator between the groups, but to little avail. She stated that "the 
situation is worsening and I fully expect larger-scale violence to erupt if 
something is not done."




_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 20:51:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 19:51:06 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:35PM -0400
References: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020423204938.A10385@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:35PM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless 
> they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which 
> case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.

Interesting.  One of my favourite treats is apricot snuff (the nasal
sort, natuerlich).  Oddly enough, it has no aroma indoors, but if one
steps outside it's really quite powerful, as though one has crammed a
pair of apricots up one's nose, one in each nostril.  Really quite
incredible how something can have no smell and an amazingly powerful
smell, depending simply on the surroundings.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a
reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating
the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for
independence.         --Charles A. Beard (1874-1948), U.S. historian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 4/23/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you
> > can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes
> > about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people
> > in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek
> > across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be
> > more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a
> > plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful
> > smell to the unwashed.
> 
> An excellent point.  Which is why some hunters use MOPP gear to hide their
> own scent.  I was always partial to Shaklee's Basic-H.  One of those
> biodegradable soaps that proto-enviornmentalists (like my parents) used in
> the late '70.  I don't even know if it's made anymore.  But it had no scent.
> I carefully hoarded my supply for years.

I'm so glad I have all you people to tell me these things.  They are NOT
things I'd ever want to find out on my own!

(I loathe getting dirty and am famous for the line, "if you expect me to
have sex with you we'd better be sleeping someplace with indoor
plumbing.")

I'd probably smell from miles away to the unwashed.  I never use anything
but Shiseido "Taiyou no Megumi" liquid body soap, which has orange, lemon
and yuzu extract in it and has quite a strong citrus smell.  The fruit
acids are good for my oily skin, and it wakes me up in the morning <G> but
no one's ever complained about it because it has no synthetic perfumes in
it.  The same goes for my shampoo, which has camellia oil in it and is the
thing that enables me and many other women to keep their long, straight
hair long and straight and shiny.

> I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
> more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
withstanding!

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:11:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:11:16 2002
Subject: Field Life (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC62145.B5492FFB@premier.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> on 4/23/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> >
> > ObTrav:  After you get to smelling that bad in the woods, you
> > can really smell people who have bathed with soap.  It takes
> > about two weeks for me to be able to detect "bathed" people
> > in the woods.  Your typical Traveller party making that trek
> > across hostile terrain, even in a vehicle, is going to be
> > more than ripe in just a few days without a bath.  And a
> > plain soap like Ivory or Safeguard actually has a powerful
> > smell to the unwashed.

For shorter field exercises (too short to become accustomed to field
funk), I found that Deep Woods Off (r) insect repellent was useful in
masking said field funk (when sprayed liberally on both self and
uniforms).  Of course, DWO (r) (even the so-called "non-scented"
variety) would no doubt be easily smelled by someone who _had_ become
accustomed to field funk (since acclimation to natural odors is often
accompanied by sensitization to artificial odors).  Yet another reason
why being a REMF in the field is unusually hazardous....

<<snip>>
> 
> I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
> more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

Hmmm, let's see.  The light from a cigarette lighter can be seen from
way-far away, the smell can be detected from way-far away (downwind,
anyway), the sound of a metal cigarette lighter snapping open or shut
carries for several hundred meters in quiet conditions and the increased
heat created by taking a drag off a cigarette makes the whole head glow
like a lantern when viewed through night-vision devices.

All we need to add are taste and touch for a five-senses symphony of
detection. ;-)

And all this is at TL-7/8 (for the increased sensitivity of the Mk I
Human Sensor Array, it's TL-0).  Imagine how easily a smoker can be
spotted at TL-12+.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <20020408010416.34975.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8EB6FA1.5837F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/7/02 6:05 PM, James Ramsay at quakers_united@yahoo.com.au wrote:

> QUOTE
> The bayonet is for impressing mobs of unarmed
> civilians.  It has little or no military application,
> contrary to popular mythos.
> END QUOTE
>=20
> True. But......
>=20
> They don't like it up 'em mister mainwaring, they
> don't like it up 'em ;)
>=20
> James

Which reminded me of Robert Service and this little ditty:

When first I left Blighty they gave me a bay'nit
And told me it 'ad to be smothered wiv gore;
But blimey! I 'aven't been able to stain it,
So far as I've gone wiv the vintage of war.
For ain't it a fraud! when a Boche and yours truly
Gits into a mix in the grit and the grime,
'E jerks up 'is 'ands wiv a yell and 'e's duly
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

=A0=A0=A0Left, right, Hans and Fritz!
=A0=A0=A0Goose step, keep up yer mits!
=A0=A0=A0Oh my, Ain't it a shyme!
=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

At toasting a biscuit me bay'nit's a dandy;
I've used it to open a bully beef can;
For pokin' the fire it comes in werry 'andy;
For any old thing but for stickin' a man.
'Ow often I've said: "'Ere, I'm goin' to press you
Into a 'Un till you're seasoned for prime,"
And fiercely I rushes to do it, but bless you!
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

=A0=A0=A0Lor, yus; DON'T they look glad?
=A0=A0=A0Right O! 'Owl Kamerad!
=A0=A0=A0Oh my, always the syme!
=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

I'm 'untin' for someone to christen me bay'nit,
Some nice juicy Chewton wot's fightin' in France;
I'm fairly down-'earted -- 'ow CAN yer explain it?
I keeps gettin' prisoners every chance.
As soon as they sees me they ups and surrenders,
Extended like monkeys wot's tryin' to climb;
And I uses me bay'nit -- to slit their suspenders --
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

=A0=A0=A0Four 'Uns; lor, wot a bag!
=A0=A0=A0'Ere, Fritz, sample a fag!
=A0=A0=A0Oh my, ain't it a gyme!
=A0=A0=A0Part of me outfit every time.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEODMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEODMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <548ccucmeghot0o03arn2ncsi1vctsa0qf@4ax.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 21:06:30 -0400, "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> wrote:

>Whether intentional or not, it still fits the textbook definition of a =
ponzi
>scheme. And a bad idea from the start. The fact that it got bigger and
>messier just follows as the night the day. Putting money away in
>interest-bearing accounts would be even worse. The best thing we could =
do is
>end the program, encourage retirement savings, roll the cost of phasing =
it
>out into the general fund and be done with it. While we're at it, phase =
out
>the rest of the federal retirement system and send it all private. At =
least
>if the politicians and bureaucrats had their cookies in the jar with =
ours
>they might be more apt to keep an eye on the Enrons and Arthur-Andersens=
 out
>there, instead of being in bed with them.

To their credit, at least some of the US politicians have recognized
these arguments and their electoral popularity quite some time ago.
At first, it was just the laws which permitted the creation of tax
deferred retirement accounts (known as Individual Retirement Accounts,
IRAs), which not only allowed, but encouraged a sensible wage earner
to plan for his own retirement.

And, before we get too far into US tax and social debate, I'll leave
further discussion aside.

ObTrav:  Is it any wonder that this isn't a topic discussed in regard
to Law Levels or Government type.  This is almost as sensitive a topic
as Theocracies or Dictatorships.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:22:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:22:18 2002
Subject: Field Life (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
In-Reply-To: <3CC62145.B5492FFB@premier.net>
Message-ID: <B8EB727B.58385%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/23/02 8:06 PM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:

> 
> And all this is at TL-7/8 (for the increased sensitivity of the Mk I
> Human Sensor Array, it's TL-0).  Imagine how easily a smoker can be
> spotted at TL-12+.

If a high tech sensor picked up trace elements from tobacco, it's gurantees
that sophs are about (The US government's attempts to get dogs to smoke
notwithstanding).
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 21:26:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Tue Apr 23 20:26:48 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
References: <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org> <OFEE181A09.FF3C6C49-ON85256BA4.005243C5@pheaa.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20020423183217.00ac19d8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC62532.4060905@yarranet.net.au>

Jimmy Simpson wrote:

> At 06:59 PM 4/23/2002 +0100, Brian Caball wrote:
> 
>> On Tuesday 23 April 2002 17:04, William Lane wrote:
>> > I loved that show when i was a kid. However i hated Galactica 1980 
>> (in fact
>> > i try to pretend it never happened.)
>>
>>
>> I think we all did that ;->

If you wanted to forget Galactica 1980 you should have lived here in oz 
where they never showed it. I only found out it even existed about 5 
years ago.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20423.202030.2k6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I think that the first versions should be some sort of spider-
> legged robot along the lines of some of Rodney Brooks' 
> creations.  They should hide in the daytime and come out at 
> night.  They should be airdropped into the rear, and they 
> should be used to spy on things.  Also, if discovered, they 
> should shoot every warm body they see.  Maybe even give them 
> a blade or two to become an intelligent lawnmower.
>
> The psychological implications are great.  Now, who wants to 
> go on patrol tonight, knowing that if you find one of these 
> things, it's going to make meat by-product out of most of 
> your patrol?
>
> I think a gadget like this is already "do-able"

A story in analog during the Vietnam war had a similar idea. A low
flying (treetop skimming) armed drone "plane" that was *very* quiet.

It'd come upon a group of VC or the like and shoot the most aggressive,
dedicated members. The rumor was that it had a "telepathic gunsight".

The real explanation was that it was programmed to fire on anybody who
shot at it! Anybody who has the presence of mind to fire at something
like this when surprised by it is *definitely* someone you want to
kill. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <DAV43ywkGmY8TkomDt500003bb3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20423.201805.9j0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being tried
> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce the
> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

There were several stories along that line. One was titled "Brillo"
(they named the robot that because it was "metal fuzz" :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:13:17 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEDKDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20423.204803.3O9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>>
>> No. According to the Church, there's nothing wrong with *being*
>> homosexual. That is, being sexually attracted to members of the same
>> sex isn't a sin.
>
> You misstate the RR POV, which says there is no *being* in the equation.
> That would suggest something physical. They tend to deny causation outside
> of the fallen (sin) condition. You correctly stated the RCC position, which
> like the jewish view holds that only the act is condemnable.

Yes, and I was replying to a comment that *specificly* mentioned the
Catholic Church. And used "Church" rather than "Christians" to convey
that.

I wasn't talking about the RRR (Radical Religious right) position. Nor
did the section of the post I was replying to. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus> <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

 >
 > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
 >
 > On 4/23/2002 at 5:05 PM ondy wrote:
 >
 >
 >> Love the cover! Layout looks nice as a jpg, I imagine the
 >> pdf will be somewhat better. I will be buying this.
 >>
 >
 > The jpgs don't do it justice really, so I just posted a
 > 4-page PDF sample also. Same pages, but you get a better
 > look at the layout!
 >
 > http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001s.pdf

Hunter,

The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.

Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
into a single product for your Aide line?

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] High Guard to GT Conversion: Tigress DN
Message-ID: <3CC5EF23.19744.FC0AC1@localhost>

--Message-Boundary-8749
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body

Heres my first attempt at converting my all time favorite CT design



--Message-Boundary-8749
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-disposition: inline
Content-description: Attachment information.

The following section of this message contains a file attachment
prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system,
you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

   ---- File information -----------
     File:  TL12 500,000-ton Tigress-class Dreadnought.htm
     Date:  23 Apr 2002, 23:30
     Size:  6305 bytes.
     Type:  HTML-text

--Message-Boundary-8749
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--Message-Boundary-8749--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 22:36:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 23 21:36:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
 <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <200204240037330379.D4645864@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>Hunter,
>
>The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
>concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
>printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
>that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
>likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.
>
>Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
>into a single product for your Aide line?

It depends on what changes would be needed for a specific on-screen version.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20422.182252.6Q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 19:23
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism

In mail you write:

> If anyone in the Portland/Vancouver area that is on this list hears
> about any job that could use someone good with computers or telecom,
> please email me off-list.

I'm trying to scrape by until I can sell some property. Alas, it looks
like I need to spend several hundred bucks I can't afford just to make
the property likely to sell... :-(
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the reply, Leonard.  Everytime I see people on the street
corners with signs, I think to myself that "someday, that will be me".
I think our economy is too sick to recover.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>; from j-man@attbi.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:43PM -0700
References: <20422.182252.6Q5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <20020423231739.A10823@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:43PM -0700, J-Man wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the reply, Leonard.  Everytime I see people on the street
> corners with signs, I think to myself that "someday, that will be me".
> I think our economy is too sick to recover.

Don't worry--no economy is too sick to recover.  This ain't the Great
Depression (thankfully: do _any_ of us want to make our children
miserable with tales of the beginning of the century?).  I rather
think that things are in the slow beginnings of a turn-around.  What
really worries me is the war.  Wars wreck havoc on economies.  The
reasons that the Great War and WWII did not on ours (ask Germans how
the 20s and late 40s were) is that in both we had a good supply of
folks to whom we were the only producers around.

Look at the '70s; at the early '90s.  What worries me is that our
current war is going to make the late '00s nasty indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEIMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <DAV39YAPNXRPmcarcR4000047a2@hotmail.com>

> >> Harlan Ellison (I think) wrote a short story about a robotic cop being
> tried
> >> out by walking a beat with a veteran cop.  The robot tried to enforce
the
> >> letter of the law without using judgment or flexibility - with fairly
> >> predictable results.  Anyone remember the title?

> >Not off-hand, but that sounds like one of Harry Harrison's from _War
> >with the Robots_.

> Isaac Asimov, The Caves of Steel, circa 1952.

> Wan't that called 'Brillo' ?

Leading to the next natural question:  How many times has this storyline
been done?

FWIW I think 'Brillo' is the one I had in mind when I originally posted.
Wouldn't bet money on it though.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 23 23:39:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Tue Apr 23 22:39:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
References: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAV128tG4tOlxlMWvaw00024086@hotmail.com>

> My favorite robot policeman is ED-209.

Gotta love ED-209.

<snip about Autonomous Robot Infantry>

Presumably biological friendlies on the ground in the ARI op area would
carry some kind of IFF transponder to keep from being carved up by their own
'bot.

Now _there's_ a piece of equipment you'd hate to see manufactured by the
lowest bidder <G>.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 00:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 23:34:03 2002
Subject: Public Health (was Re: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <20020424000942.7DBCE27A09@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E170GLO-0004sI-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > 
> > Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think
> > it would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> > bathing and sanitation...
> 
> That means you want the rest of the state to fund your desire to live
> where it's expensive (those subsidies have to come from somewhere).
> That's hardly a good thing.

How about funding sanitation for public health reasons?  Even if 
only 5% of the people lack adequate water for sanitation and must 
crap in the street, the disease risk is increased for *everyone*  
public health measures are a common good that is far more 
effective if everyone has access to it, just like vaccination.  The 
pandemics that swept the entire world for milllennia ended for a 
reason.  This reason was a combination of state-sponsored public 
health measures (for dyptheria, typhus and similar bacterial 
diseases) and vaccination (for viruses like polo and smallpox).  If 
these efforts were privately run then the vaccinations might still 
help many people, but the risks of a vaccine that only lasts a 
decade or two (ad many do) would be far higher and public health 
measures would not protect people nearly as well.  

ObTrav:  Have the PCs visit a amber or red zone world (likely the 
only worlds in the Imperium without at least access to basic 
medical tech) with old style epidemic disease, and have the visit 
occur during an outbreak.  The history of the old pandemics was 
horrifying and even if the PCs were immune, life would be rough 
(especially if anyone figured out they were immune).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 00:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 23 23:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote

> What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a 
> fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who think
> they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to complain
> that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and agitate
> for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact that lead
> to such a system in the first place, since the rationale that supports
> it can be easily used to support increases, and whether society wants
> to try and "buy" them off).

I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.
 
> There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family (?).
>  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those who
> went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this is
> the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of
> "non-working" class in Europe....

Given how rapidly automation is advancing (much modern office 
work will be obsolete in under 20 years), we are almost certainly 
going to have a combination of increasing GNPs *and* an 
increasing number of people out of work in the entire First World.  
Why should they not share in the bounty of an economy that no 
longer has need for (and in fact, likely cannot deal with) for 
everyone to be employed.  

Look at www.technocracyinc.org for some unusual ideas (that I 
agree with) on this front.

Ob Trav: I wonder how many High Tech worlds in the Imperium 
have large unemployed populations.  Finding a way into space on a 
tramp freighter and Imperial service are likely popular ways around 
this lack of on-world work.


-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 01:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 00:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700
References: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com> <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020424010057.A11114@4dv.net>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
> that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.

Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from
firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure
they often use are suicides.  They also fail to mention that at least
three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other
criminals in disputes over illicit drugs,+or police shooting criminals
engaged in felonies.  Subtracting those, we are left with no more than
3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 01:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 00:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204240723.AAA08458@ping.iii.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:

>On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> 
>> Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
>> being paid for by the occupants of the city.
>
>Then why subsidise?  You're forcing the well-off to pay for water and
>electricity for the less well-off.

The issue at hand was sanitation, and the reason is simple: good sanitation
and the like is in everyone's interest.  Do you really want sewage pooling
in your neighbor's yard because he can't or won't pay to clean it up?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 01:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 00:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com> <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and that
> it soon will be be one in much of the First World.

Despite living in a country that subsidises its unemployed to a higher
standard of living than its part-time workers, I couldn't agree with
you less.  A guaranteed income is a luxury that a first-world country
can afford, and may even become an entitlement of citizenship, but it
is far from a fundamental right.

Fundamental rights pertain only to things that you may not have taken
from you.  All else is merely benefits or entitlements of a particular
society.


> Given how rapidly automation is advancing (much modern office work
> will be obsolete in under 20 years), we are almost certainly going
> to have a combination of increasing GNPs *and* an increasing number
> of people out of work in the entire First World.

I partially agree with you.  Not on the subject of the obsolescence of
office work; that's been projected "in 20 years" for as long as cheap
and abundant fusion power has, for much the same reasons.

Increasing GNPs, certainly.  Increasing unemployment, possibly.  More
people deciding that they can support themselves in comfort on less
work, yes.  If it wasn't for the government's anti-incentives, I'd be
working comfortably in a part-time job now instead of deciding whether
I'd rather work full-time with buckets of cash and no time to spend
it, or not work at all and have heaps of time to pursue open-source
programming but not save any money.


> Why should they not share in the bounty of an economy that no longer
> has need for (and in fact, likely cannot deal with) for everyone to
> be employed.

An economy can *always* deal with more workers, if left to market
forces.  If there's a surplus of any labour, skilled or unskilled,
wages for those workers can drop until goods or services become viable
to take up all the surplus.  However, quite understandable political
interests and regulations get in the way in practice.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 03:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Wed Apr 24 02:25:02 2002
Subject: Only a month late but --- was Re: [TML] Who are we?
Message-ID: <1B52330D-5764-11D6-B7BF-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

100+ Digests to catch up on...

Is anyone archiving these? ;-)

Name: Dominic Mooney
Age: 30
Country: UK (currently time sharing between Leeds and Liverpool)
Favorite version of Traveller: T4.1 playtest with HG2 for ships, MT as 
fallback
Military Service: None
Favorite Supplement: High Guard 2, Hard Times, Milieu 0 Campaign, 
mumble-mumble Rim of Fire, Far Trader
Favorite Sector: Solomani Rim
Favorite Race: Zhodani
Favorite Empire: Solomani Confederation
Favorite Worlds: The Promise Subsector ones during Hard Times


---------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com----------
     MacOS X 10.1 - Unix with Style
"Reality, is something that you rise above..
We don't see things as they are,  we see them as we are."
Rich - Marillion - .com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 04:08:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 24 03:08:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424010057.A11114@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204241231200.20326-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

(This seems too much off-topic, I will continue this only on tml-chat, but
will not forward this there, because Robert is not there.)

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
> > that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.
> Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

Well, considering that advancing technology seems to require less and less
labor to work it, I think that we will have more and more unemployed
people in the future. 

Not everybody is capable of working in a service profession. 

This _is_ a big problem. Hopefully we will make up something...

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204231704.EVL07840@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC73DFE.1550.56B779@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 13:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST 
> series is that everyone is an officer.

That didn't bother me in the slightest, seeing as there were often 
engineering officers doing what we'd have ratings employed at. 
Obviously the later Star Trek period saw a lot of 'job inflation' in 
the Federation. Probably some bureaucrat thought it'd help morale or 
recruitment if everyone in Starfleet got to be an officer.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Early version of Anti-Hijack
In-Reply-To: <200204231952.EVR04459@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74248.6442.6778E7@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 15:52, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Of course, you can't beat an autonomous robot infantryman for 
> sheer terror.  It's probably a bit harder to kill than a real 
> infantryman, and it's probably a much better shot. And if you 
> manage to kill it, all you've done is trash some electronic 
> parts.  Not very satisfying.  And you probably can't capture 
> one - even if you caught one in a net, it's probably too 
> dangerous.
> 
> I think that the first versions should be some sort of spider-
> legged robot along the lines of some of Rodney Brooks' 
> creations.  They should hide in the daytime and come out at 
> night.  They should be airdropped into the rear, and they 
> should be used to spy on things.  Also, if discovered, they 
> should shoot every warm body they see.  Maybe even give them 
> a blade or two to become an intelligent lawnmower.
> 
> The psychological implications are great.  Now, who wants to 
> go on patrol tonight, knowing that if you find one of these 
> things, it's going to make meat by-product out of most of 
> your patrol?
> 
> I think a gadget like this is already "do-able"

Pity they'll be rather vunerable to man-portable EMP generators, which 
can be made really cheaply.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:42:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:42:38 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC5E36E.801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CC74249.2877.6779B3@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 15:42, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> > Well the importance of even centurions in much of that strife argues 
> > for them being considered officers - very few coups in the modern world 
> > are started and managed by sergeants.
> 
> Au contraire. A number of coups in Africa have been started by Non-coms. 
> IIRC one of the Liberian coup leaders started as a Master Sergeant, 
> wasn't he? Robert someting or another...
> 
> Also, I believe it was a number of Non-coms who started one of the coups 
> against Noriega in Panama, just before the US invasion.

Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are by officers in the 
Captain to Colonel range, with the next group being those run by 
Generals, though these are quite often one General replacing another 
and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have to do more 
reading, methinks.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:45:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:45:25 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8eb83b1f99b@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74249.9558.677A81@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 17:26, David P. Summers wrote:

> A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more people living on 
> public assistance.  (It may not be 50%, but it will depend on what 
> the level is set at).

Curiously even though this is effectively the case in this country 
unemployment and beneficiary numbers are more dependant on other 
factors than on how much money is paid out to 'dole bludgers' and I 
very much doubt that this would change unless quite a lot more money 
was paid to them.
 
> What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a 
> fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who 
> think they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to 
> complain that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and 
> agitate for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact 
> that lead to such a system in the first place, since the rationale 
> that supports it can be easily used to support increases, and whether 
> society wants to try and "buy" them off).
> 
> There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family 
> (?).  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those 
> who went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this 
> is the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of 
> "non-working" class in Europe....

Until the economy is in a state where the demand for labour is such 
that industries are short of it and people are still refusing to work 
it really doesn't matter if some (or most) of the people not working 
aren't because they can't be bothered.

However I do agree that if the level of support is high enough some 
people will chosse to simply not bother to work. In fact it can be )and 
is) arguned that the level of support to solo parents in this country 
is at that level.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:48:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:48:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019586447.9084.ajackson@ping>
References: <200204231803.g3NI3xJ17762@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3CC74248.24093.67780F@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 11:27, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Steven Hudson writes:
> 
> >   ObTrav: the IN is _the_ crucial piece of the 3I's public 
> > infrastructure; the Throne maintains an effective monopoly
> > on its own ownership. Right?
> 
> Well, by definition the IN is only controlled by the Imperium.  However, the
> Throne does not have an effective monopoly on interstellar naval forces.
> 
> However, the other public infrastructure controlled by the throne is just as
> crucial (though, once again, not a monopoly).  That's starports.

Likewise the X-boat system and the survey apparatus, though again these 
aren't a monoploy.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com>
References: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 19:29, JR Holmes wrote:

> Actually, the Social Security fund was never intended to operate in
> the manner you state.  Your "Instead" is, in fact, the way it was
> intended to operate from the start.  If that hadn't been the case,
> Social Security wouldn't have been able to start paying benefits at
> its inception.
> 
> That original structure was founded on the idea that the pool of
> wage-earning taxpayers would always exceed the pool of recipients.  As
> the US went through the demographic surge known as the Baby Boom, the
> pool of taxpayers expanded greatly while the pool of Social Security
> retirees wasn't greatly increasing.
> 
> With that large surge of money going into the system, it represented
> an irresistible opportunity to the politicians to expand the benefits,
> which is exactly what they did (arguably, not too much of a pork
> barrel).  Further, the US government also changed the law to allow use
> of the Social Security surplus to pay for some of the Reagan deficits
> (which, depending upon your viewpoint, might be where the bulk of the
> pork might be found).
> 
> Now, as the members of the Baby Boom start approaching retirement,
> there are fewer members of the pool of wage-earning taxpayers who are
> paying to support a demographic bulge of retirees.  Had the government
> instead simply banked the surplus at a modest interest rate, it would
> not be seeing the oncoming retirement crisis (instead, we would have
> had a different crisis some time ago).

Hmm. Makes NZ's situation look even worse than it is. Our 
superannuation system was supposed to be a form of government 
subsidised savings, but in the 70s everything got put into a 
consolidated fund for efficencies' sake (actually IMO it was so that 
creative spending practices were easier to hide) and mysteriously by 
the mid-80s all the super fund seemed to have gotten lost. Theft by 
government, ain't it grand?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423190732.A7743@4dv.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CC74404.23217.6E3D9E@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 19:07, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > 
> > Most likely they come from local taxes, which means that they're pretty much
> > being paid for by the occupants of the city.
> 
> Then why subsidise?  You're forcing the well-off to pay for water and
> electricity for the less well-off.  To an extent this may be
> appropriate, but I wonder to what extent, exactly.  Anyone deserves
> enough water for drinking to keep from dying and bathing to keep
> leprosy at bay, but any more than that should be on a pay-as-you-go
> basis.

If the wealthy want those they pass on the street to not offend their 
noses, why shouldn't they contribute towards the lower orders hygene?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 05:57:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 04:57:09 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <F188oaBfvQeVe0F7HcC000014fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74404.13930.6E3CAD@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 0:39, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Permission gladly granted!  Oz is more advanced than the World's 
> Biggest Banana Republic in many areas, brewing comes first to mind.

That must make NZ incredibly advenced then. :)

As a New Zealander I just had to make that dig. Can't have the Aussies 
thinking they brew better beer than we.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:01:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:01:43 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
References: <20020424063707.194DD27A34@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>

Kiri Aradia Morgan posted:
> 
> I'm so glad I have all you people to tell me these things.  They are NOT
> things I'd ever want to find out on my own!
> 
<snip> 
> > I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes carries.  There's
> > more than one reason for snipers to be non-smokers.

This is also the reason, I believe, a number of LRRP members in Viet Nam
ate only local food..or so I've heard. Some of the military vets on list
can probably confirm or lay this to rest.

An interesting sidenote for Traveller is the experience on one of the
many
Apollo flights. Apollo 8, I think. 'Twould seem one of the astronauts
had
a bout with some food that didn't agree with him. It hit when they had
been
in orbit preparatory to leaving for the moon. No one informed Mission 
Control and they were told to proceed (lose out on going to the moon
'cause
of the trots? As if!).

Unfortunately, the only "solids" toilet on board was in the form of
waterproof
bags with an adhesive on the inner rim of the opening. The adhesive
didn't
quite take. Everyone helped clean up the mess that had spread from the
Lunar Module, where the sick astronaut took care of business, to the
Command
Module.

A couple of weeks later, a poor Navy diver opened the hatch after the
capsule splashed down and almost fell off the capsule's floats when the
stench of two weeks of unwashed bodies and other things in something the
size of a small walk-in closet hit him.

Oh, and the space shuttle itself also tends to be aired out after each
mission. And, yes, the real toilet can get backed up. It happened about
5-6 missions ago. It was one to the ISS when the space station didn't
have
a permanent working toilet; the rookie on the mission was told by
Mission
Control to break out the long-sleeved plastic glove. It really was his
responsibility, not an act of bad humor.

He was considered the hero of the mission and I'm NOT joking.

So if a PC ever wants to work his passage by doing maintenance work...

GMs can truly have fun with PCs in small starships. <evil grin>

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <200204240146.EWD01643@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC74719.7719.7A4A2B@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 21:46, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Well, until I washed when I got back, that was the case.  
> After a few weeks, I couldn't smell myself, and I don't think 
> that anyone could really smell me, unlike the people who 
> smelled like soap.

That's my experience, too. It's one of the reasons we didn't like 
officers carping on about shaving in the bush - even a little bit of 
soap smells (and you have to re-apply camo cream on all that nice clean 
face, and any cuts are likely to get infected).
 
> I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago, 
> and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how 
> you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin 
> gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.

I found that after a week or two my hands became a lot less sensitive 
to extreme temperatures (like hot metal canteens of tea) even though 
the skin didn't thicken - it went sort of glassy, though. I also found 
that you didn't notice your own smell or that of your unit, but other 
units did smell a bit. Handy in bush with visibilty measured in metres 
or less.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
In-Reply-To: <DAV32IKcQEF2a9jE11o0001c2c0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC747A3.30593.7C6423@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 22:09, Samuel D. Weiss wrote:

> John T. Kwon wrote,
> 
> >I remember watching the movie Cross of Iron a long time ago,
> and in that movie a soldier jokes about not bathing, and how
> you become waterproof.  It's true, at least for me.  My skin
> gets really waxy after a couple of weeks.<
> 
> That is one of my favorite movie lines.
> As you note, he was joking. He was asked why he didn't bathe. His response
> was that body oils, combined with sweat and dirt formed a natural barrier to
> water. (He was dirty because he didn't bathe, he didn't bathe because he was
> going to get dirty in a trench anyway.)
> Later in the movie when they come upon a group of female Soviet soldiers, he
> climbs into a hot tub with one of them fully clothed.
> 
> A really fun movie.
> :)

It's one of my favourites for getting idjits who've watched too much 
rambo to watch before playing in military or pseudo-military games. 
That and The Wild Bunch to instill proper respect for machineguns.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:11:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:11:43 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC748AA.24912.8066F4@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 20:06, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:

> > I won't even comment about how far the smell of cigarettes
> > carries.  There's more than one reason for snipers to be
> > non-smokers. 
> 
> I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
> for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
> withstanding!

The way cigarette smoke clings is one of the reasons I seldom go to 
pubs these days. It's also way we used to try and get all the smokers 
assigned to other sections before an exercise (that and the fact that 
smoker's cough is not a good thing to be having in a tactical 
situation).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424010057.A11114@4dv.net>
References: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>; from sneadj@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CC74B22.1400.8A0C31@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 1:00, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:53:59PM -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > 
> > I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and 
> > that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.
> 
> Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

Why shouldn't someone get something if they can't do anything because 
there's no opening for them? A few years back here in NZ a document 
from the Treasury was leaked which reported that in order to keep the 
inflation rate under 2% (the target at that time, IIRC) interest rates 
would have to be maintained at a point which would also maintain the 
unemployment rate at over 6%. Now if a country is going to do something 
like this in order that its businesses, investors and workers (though I 
have my doubts about there having been any concerns about the latter at 
that time) might prosper, surely it has an obligation to look after 
those that it has ensured cannot be employed?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:21:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:21:54 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3CC74B22.1369.8A0CF3@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 17:50, Timothy Little wrote:

> I partially agree with you.  Not on the subject of the obsolescence of
> office work; that's been projected "in 20 years" for as long as cheap
> and abundant fusion power has, for much the same reasons.

Like the 'paperless office'. :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:25:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:25:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020423231739.A10823@4dv.net>
References: <000001c1eb4d$fa5506d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>; from j-man@attbi.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:07:43PM -0700
Message-ID: <3CC74B22.11314.8A0B4B@localhost>

On 23 Apr 2002 at 23:17, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Don't worry--no economy is too sick to recover.  This ain't the Great
> Depression (thankfully: do _any_ of us want to make our children
> miserable with tales of the beginning of the century?).  I rather
> think that things are in the slow beginnings of a turn-around.  What
> really worries me is the war.  Wars wreck havoc on economies.  The
> reasons that the Great War and WWII did not on ours (ask Germans how
> the 20s and late 40s were) is that in both we had a good supply of
> folks to whom we were the only producers around.
> 
> Look at the '70s; at the early '90s.  What worries me is that our
> current war is going to make the late '00s nasty indeed.

Which war? The US expenditure on 'war' was quite high even before 
11Sep2001.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:27:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:27:51 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC74BB9.7090.8C5923@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 6:54, David Smart wrote:

> This is also the reason, I believe, a number of LRRP members in Viet Nam
> ate only local food..or so I've heard. Some of the military vets on list
> can probably confirm or lay this to rest.

AFAIK it's true, and was also done by Commonwealth forces in Malaysia.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Wed Apr 24 05:48:02 2002
Subject: Stench (was Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>

----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....


> "Robert A. Uhl" says
> >
> >I thought you reeked?  Now I'm all confused and my head
> >hurts:-(
> >
> After a few weeks, no one could smell me in the field, unless
> they got really close, or I went inside a building, in which
> case, people who were recently bathed could smell me.
>
> My roommate could smell me when I came back, after he had
> bathed.
>
> In the field after a few weeks, I could smell bathed people
> at a considerable distance if they were upwind of me.  But it
> didn't work the other way for them (if I was upwind of them).


There used to be this show on TV about Vietnam (I'm sure that somebody
remembers it), and I remember a particular episode where the platoon was
going to take an attractive female new reporter on patrol with them.  All
the guys in the platoon showered, shaved, and slapped on the colone so they
would look godd when the woman arrived, and the platoon sergant chewed them
out for it...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 07:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 24 06:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <20020424000941.9F23227A05@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424145442.00bc2b80@mail.pi.se>

>Message: 5
>Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:51:57 -0500
>From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hello!

>For anyone that might know the answer:
>
>While working on my Mire landgrab, I have come up with a question that I 
>hope someone on the TML might know an answer for.  (Preferably a correct 
>one.  :-) )
>
>What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain in 
>order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?

If you ignore special cases, such as 3:2 orbit resonance (like 
Pluto/Neptune) or 1:1 orbit resonances (like tadpole orbits), and also 
assume the orbits must be stable over long times, like the age of our solar 
system, you basically have two limiters.

The first and more strict one is that the orbits won't be stable in the 
"forbidden zones" of another planet. The simplest way to think of this is 
to think of the Lagrange points of the system. The LG-1 point (usually this 
is considered to be the equilibrium point between the two bodies) separates 
where a particle should orbit either body. So in your example, the planet 
outside Mire will have an LG-1 point a bit inward. Mire can't orbit between 
that point and the outer planet, it must orbit between the local sun and 
the point. Like this

SUN ---- Mire --- Outer Planet's LG-1 --- Outer Planet

The exact breaking point here depends on the masses involved, but the 
example you give is with certainty stable unless the outer planet is 
extremely eccentric and it has a serious mass compared to the local sun. 
For an Earth-size planet around a Solar-mass star, the LG-1 is only about 
1% of the total distance away from the planet, or about four times further 
away than the moon.

The second one has to do with stability radii in multiple planet systems. 
This can be approximated by using Hill radii equations (for "real" 
calculations you need serious computing runs)  Again, this is an 
approximation and gross simplification, and I am not a professional 
astronomer so I may well misunderstand the math and theory.

But if we assume the central star of your example has a mass of 1/3 of our 
Sun, and Mire is Earth-size and orbits in a circular orbit at 0.2 AU the 
outer planet can orbit at 0.3 AU as long as it is not more massive than 
20-40 Earths (or about twice the size of Neptune or Uranus) without 
disrupting Mire's orbit. It would still affect it, though. If the outer 
planet is Earth-size too, you could potentially have a stable orbit at 0.25 
AU for the outer world.

If we take the original 0.4 AU, the world could be Saturn-size or even a 
bit bigger and Mire would still be stable. For a Jupiter-size world, you 
would likely need a distance of about 0.5 AU from the central star, so in 
this case the next stable orbit would be farther away than the Traveller 
orbit number says.

However, you could get a 3:1 orbit resonance (Mire does three orbits in one 
orbit of the outer world) by placing the second world at about 0.41 AU, and 
in this case Mire might be stable even if the outer planet is as big as 
Jupiter, or larger. This world would still affect the orbit a bit, though.

>The reason I ask is that Mire is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a 
>distance of .2 AU.  By default, the next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.  Can 
>that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without 
>affecting Mire's orbit?

As above, unless the outer planet is a large gas giant it is IMO very 
likely the orbit would be stable.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 07:34:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 24 06:34:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Robert A. Uhl" says
>
>Why should someone who does nothing get anything?

Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
(whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
aged and infirm.  

Something I keep telling my children:

Every able bodied person has an obligation to defend the 
weak.  That's a rather broad obligation, but it's there.  If 
you see someone beating someone, you have to stop it and/or 
get help.  And if someone is unable to work, or is starving, 
you have to help them.

Now, whether or not the government is any good at these 
things is something else.  There are times when you can't 
wait for a policeman to come.  And there are times when you 
can't wait for social services to get their act together.  
You don't have to shoulder the whole world, but you have to 
do something.  Just standing there is not an option.
________________
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <F42fOy8Wx1jgTGAP2tb00002903@hotmail.com>

In mail, "Texas Redshift" <texasredshift@hotmail.com> said...

<SNIP>
>If by "tech dreams" you mean any new research, I disagree with the
>philosophy implicit in your statement.  If, on the other hand, you mean
>pie-in-the-sky nonsense, we're on the same page.
>.
>.
>.
>
>I don't know if the Cromatica system will turn out to be research or
>pie-in-the-sky nonsense.
</SNIP>

Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they' wanted to trial in 
the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras were linked to a database 
containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to alert the local 
police when a 'non-desirable' tried entering the city center (note; in 
England, shopping centers/malls can exclude people for illegal behviour, so 
this is not considered a violation of their rights).
Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of 10,000 bodies 
would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals free to go about 
their crimes...
Does anyone know what happened to this idea?

ObTrav: quite a few; PCs and/or friends get 'misidentified' (either way ;-), 
homicidal maniac gets into a busy shopping complex, "robo-mountie" suffers 
silicon senility and starts arresting *everybody*... ad infinitum.

Jeff.

"You want me to stand *where*??"

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:04:03 2002
Subject: Stench (was Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
In-Reply-To: <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <B8EC093B.58417%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/24/02 5:52 AM, Christopher Pratt at cdpratt@gatecom.com wrote:

> There used to be this show on TV about Vietnam (I'm sure that somebody
> remembers it), and I remember a particular episode where the platoon was
> going to take an attractive female new reporter on patrol with them.  All
> the guys in the platoon showered, shaved, and slapped on the colone so they
> would look godd when the woman arrived, and the platoon sergant chewed them
> out for it...

"Tour of Duty".  Strangely, that very episode was on yesterday.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-lethal weapons
Message-ID: <B8EC0B99.58449%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Greetings all.  Earlier this month someone sent me the URL for an
interesting website on how non-lethal weapons work.  Which I have, of
course, lost.  If that kind soul could resend, I would be most grateful.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]

> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they' 
> wanted to trial in 
> the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras were linked 
> to a database 
> containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to 
> alert the local 
> police when a 'non-desirable' tried entering the city center 
> (note; in 
> England, shopping centers/malls can exclude people for 
> illegal behviour, so 
> this is not considered a violation of their rights).
> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of 
> 10,000 bodies 
> would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals 
> free to go about 
> their crimes...

Ummm, not quite...

As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
their identity will be free to go about their business.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:24:02 2002
Subject: Only a month late but --- was Re: [TML] Who are we?
In-Reply-To: <1B52330D-5764-11D6-B7BF-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <20020424142311.66979.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> Is anyone archiving these? ;-)

I think I have most of them, but I haven't had tome to
sort through them yet.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:36:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:36:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Who are we?
In-Reply-To: <20020424142311.66979.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEFNDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Citizens of the TML at http://www.downport.com/traveller/TML.shtml has been
around a few years. I'm getting ready to do a periodic update if anyone want
s to add /delete / modify any or their bio info on there.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
> --- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> > Is anyone archiving these? ;-)
>
> I think I have most of them, but I haven't had tome to
> sort through them yet.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <B8EC12F8.58455%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/24/02 7:20 AM, Matthew Bond at mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk wrote:

> 
> Ummm, not quite...
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

So they run undesirables out of town?  Nice.  Where do these people go?  And
who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or just those
detained by the police at some previous time?  What about those who have
already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going to be harassed
by the police.

This brings up an interesting question for PC visiting a relatively high law
level world.  Are they entered into a database because adventurers are a
suspicious class of people?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <DAV35SmLAztxc1o8yfo00004bf8@hotmail.com>

Visionics is the name of the company providing (some of) these systems.

There's a pretty fair article about the thing at:

http://www.mediaeater.com/cameras/news/10-2001.html

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 08:59:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 07:59:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B87@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Bond [mailto:mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk]
> Ummm, not quite...
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons 
> banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer 
> to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.
> 
> Matt

That said, of course, you are right that there may be false negatives...
so of the 4 failures on two will be innocents inconvenienced by s
policeman asking them who they are, and two will be 'undesirables' who
get to roam the area unmolested... of course, the next camera that sees
them might well pick them out anyway if the failure rate is 'per check'.
And if the police have copies of the mugshots available in their patrol
car (or downloadable to a handheld device) then they can swiftly check
that the person they are questioning is indeed on the list or not.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <200204241458.EXD05545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
<snip about the "smart" camera system>

The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
be.

Factor in the following:

a.  Criminal warrant issued, but no picture
b.  Criminal warrant issued, but not entered into database in 
a timely manner
c.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
found not guilty, data not updated
d.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
does his time, is released, and data not updated

I bet the actual error rate is over 50 percent.  Just go on 
the web and look at the state of Maryland's sex offender 
registry.  They state up front that they can't keep it up to 
date.  They don't really know where these people live.  I 
spoke to someone in that department, and they said that the 
only way to find out accurate information about a particular 
individual is to call and ask for an actual check - they go 
out and find the individual in question.

The culture and infrastructure for systems like these to be 
near 100 percent accurate do not exist.

________________
But there ain't many troubles that a man can't fix
With seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:05:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:05:46 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA2270D@USCHM203>

All those infantry odor stories bring back some memories. In my experience,
I never noticed my own smell or that of anyone else around, though as others
have said, after a shower back in the barracks, you could smell the reek off
of your dirty clothes.
One thing you could smell, if you were on regular duty, was a company
returning from several weeks in the field. I swear you could smell them from
about a hundred yards away, and it only grew in intensity until you thought
a herd of goats was passing by.
Probably why my Gunny called everyone "Goddamn goatsmellers!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <200204241509.g3OF9LD01728@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....
...
>ObTrav - Why aren't stewards paid more?  Providing creature comforts for 
>crew and passengers surely must be very important.  Good stewards control 
>morale in the uniformed services and can lure paying high passengers to your 
>nondescript Beowulf.

  Economics? If Steward-0 is six weeks F/T at Chez Ronaldo's, then
there's going to be lots of those people available. As it happens
I subscribe to the "spaceship pilots are going to be quite common,
actually" school but the relatively specialized (spaceship) skills
are still going to have greater market value through rarity.

  OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than
Pilot-3 or Engineering-3 - those latter don't clearly affect the
bottom line, after all.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For the Gun Bunnies out there...
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020424111106.00b8da70@mail.charter.net>

and I is one... (Ok...compared to some I'm a fluffy white house rabbit 
while they are dangerous cave guarding rabbits with sharp pointy teeth...)

<http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/modernfirepower/>

Currently in Playtest, you have to a Pyramid subscriber to access the 
playtest files and boards.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:17:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:17:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <200204241458.EXD05545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC7743B.26719.1EA397@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 10:58, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
> <snip about the "smart" camera system>
> 
> The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
> the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
> Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
> to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
> serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
> incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
> be.

How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
least keep the false positive rate down.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B88@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tod Glenn [mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com]
> Sent: 24 April 2002 15:45
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
> 
> 
> on 4/24/02 7:20 AM, Matthew Bond at mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Ummm, not quite...
> > 
> > As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons 
> banned/convicted
> > etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> > flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and 
> either arrested
> > or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> > bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police 
> officer to confirm
> > their identity will be free to go about their business.
> 
> So they run undesirables out of town?  Nice.

Hardly. They would only be restricted from the main shopping precincts.

>  Where do these 
> people go?

Local shops in the area they lived.

>  And
> who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
> crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or 
> just those
> detained by the police at some previous time?  What about 
> those who have
> already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going 
> to be harassed
> by the police.

I would expect that the idea was to only inclued persistent
shoplifters/vandals/muggers/car thieves etc
And it is hardly and great difficulty to flag each record with an expiry
date.

So upon a criminal coming before the courts for the umpteenth time for
such offences the court can order that their 'mugshot' be placed on the
system for a specified length of time. If they stop offending then after
that time they are removed from the database.

> This brings up an interesting question for PC visiting a 
> relatively high law
> level world.  Are they entered into a database because 
> adventurers are a
> suspicious class of people?

I can certainly see this happening on certain planets who want to keep
track of 'offworlders'. IIRC the second Stainless Steel Rat book
(Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge, I think) by Harry Harrison had such a
culture as the main antagonists.

Matt 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For the Gun Bunnies out there...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020424111106.00b8da70@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3CC7779E.14945.2BE21E@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 11:14, Mark Urbin wrote:

> and I is one... (Ok...compared to some I'm a fluffy white house rabbit 
> while they are dangerous cave guarding rabbits with sharp pointy teeth...)
> 
> <http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/modernfirepower/>
> 
> Currently in Playtest, you have to a Pyramid subscriber to access the 
> playtest files and boards.

Actually while the boards and stuff is still up, it's now out of playtest. 
Lots of fun stuff though, including good (IMO) rules for silencers and so 
on.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn, 
Playtester, Modern Firepower.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>; from tim@freeman.little-possums.net on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:50:39PM +1000
References: <20020424024906.14A4B27A26@mail.travellercentral.com> <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <20020424175039.A9510@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020424093444.A12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:50:39PM +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> Fundamental rights pertain only to things that you may not have taken
> from you.

I like the way P.J. O'Rourke phrases it: a right is something which
does not take from anyone else.  One has a right to freedom of
religion--until one starts practicing human sacrifice.  One has a
right to freedom of speech--until one incites a riot.  One has a right
to freedom of armament--until one attacks another.  One has a right to
privacy--until one starts hiding bodies.  One has a right to enjoy
whatever particular perversion tickles one's fancy--unless it's rape.
And so on.

None of these impinge upon anyone else.  A right _cannot_ impinge on
anyone else.  When it does, it ceases to be a right.  When something
is an impingement from the very beginning (e.g. handouts--the money
must be taken from someone), it cannot be a right at all.

> If it wasn't for the government's anti-incentives, I'd be working
> comfortably in a part-time job now instead of deciding whether I'd
> rather work full-time with buckets of cash and no time to spend it,
> or not work at all and have heaps of time to pursue open-source
> programming but not save any money.

In fairness, it's not purely governmental disincentives but also
corporate culture.  At least from where I stand most folks do not want
a three-months-a-year employee.  Which is a pity.

> An economy can *always* deal with more workers, if left to market
> forces.  If there's a surplus of any labour, skilled or unskilled,
> wages for those workers can drop until goods or services become viable
> to take up all the surplus.  However, quite understandable political
> interests and regulations get in the way in practice.

Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
out sewage.  I daresay I would.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:48:02 2002
Subject: Stench (was Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
In-Reply-To: <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>; from cdpratt@gatecom.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:25AM -0400
References: <200204240207.EWD03044@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <0db101c1eb8e$e25af620$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <20020424094725.B12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:25AM -0400, Christopher Pratt wrote:
> 
> There used to be this show on TV about Vietnam (I'm sure that somebody
> remembers it), and I remember a particular episode where the platoon was
> going to take an attractive female new reporter on patrol with them.  All
> the guys in the platoon showered, shaved, and slapped on the colone so they
> would look good when the woman arrived, and the platoon sergant chewed them
> out for it...

Judging by my father's tales of the Navy--back when it was a man's
navy--they probably figured it was well worth it.  Heck, I know from
Scout camp that a few days makes the one girl in camp the most
beautiful woman in the world.  I can only image that after some months
out the effect becomes rather more pronounced.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <OF113CE2E0.677F0151-ON85256BA5.00569E86@pheaa.org>







>Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
>willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
>out sewage.  I daresay I would.

True but because there are so few people willing to do it i bet the pay for
workers to do that job is really good 8P one of the things i believe is a
factor in how you get paid is the number of people able or willing to do
the job. Lots of people want to be basketball stars but very few are able
to play basketball at that level of ability. Lots of people would rather
make 15 bucks an hour instead of 5 but very few are willing to clean sewers
to get it.

anyway hasta

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400
References: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> 
> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
> aged and infirm.  

I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?

People who cannot work are another matter.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
In the UNIX world, being dependent on a GUI is the same thing as not
being a sysadmin.                                        --BigZaphod

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 09:58:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 24 08:58:10 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <3CC748AA.24912.8066F4@localhost>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>

At 12:07 AM 4/25/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
> > for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
> > withstanding!
>
>The way cigarette smoke clings is one of the reasons I seldom go to
>pubs these days. It's also way we used to try and get all the smokers
>assigned to other sections before an exercise (that and the fact that
>smoker's cough is not a good thing to be having in a tactical
>situation).

The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people 
having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for 
days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by 
smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.

ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 10:00:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 09:00:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>; from mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:20:51PM +0100
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <20020424095613.D12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:20:51PM +0100, Matthew Bond wrote:
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 10:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Apr 24 09:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <F2090Q5B71GmFs40SIq0000224a@hotmail.com>

From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)

     "Economics? If Steward-0 is six weeks F/T at Chez Ronaldo's, then
there's going to be lots of those people available. As it happens I 
subscribe to the "spaceship pilots are going to be quite common,
actually" school but the relatively specialized (spaceship) skills are still 
going to have greater market value through rarity."


Mr. Hudson,

     Yes, most likely economics or the usual human "we'll muddle through" 
and "it's good enough" attitudes.  It's only a week after all, you can get 
something good to eat, or sleep in a clean room, or whatever after we reach 
our next port.

     "OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than
Pilot-3 or Engineering-3 - those latter don't clearly affect the bottom 
line, after all."

     Most definitely.  Here in the Biggest Little and in many other locales, 
restaurants advertise the chefs they have on staff.  There is a constant 
struggle to lure "names" away from your competitors and hold onto those you 
have.  Naturally for ever heavy hitter, there are dozens of third assistant 
bottle washers.
     If I were GMing today (alas), I'd most certainly present the PCs with 
an NPC super-duper-steward.  That fellow would ask for more pay and be a bit 
of a prima-donna to handle, but he would also fill the cabins with high 
passengers and have high skilled, low wage NPC crewmen begging the PCs to 
sign on.  Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he 
needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to 
insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.

PC - "Cilantro!??!  Just where in hades are we going to find cilantro on 
Roup?  Good Sweet Strephon, Melmotte, cilantro?!"

Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop 
for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze 
baronne merde?"


     Sincerely,
     Larsen
>
>   Steven Hudson
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 11:02:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 10:02:06 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>; from gridlore@mindspring.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204232000000.21968-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <B8EB68F5.582B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <3CC748AA.24912.8066F4@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020424110133.E12492@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also
> people having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

So you make sure they're not addicts--you don't forbid them to smoke,
period.  Or you allow them other forms of nicotine: chewing tobacco,
while it has a distinctive odour, I don't think is as strong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`You know, there's a word for people who
 think that everyone is out to get them...'
`Yes! Perceptive!'           --Woody Allen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 11:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed Apr 24 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424085027.00a01040@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEGDDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Hey, good plot device. Your team has been assigned to popularize tobacco use
among young Vargr to reduce their olfactory effectiveness should they decide
to join the other side in the brewing dissatisfaction with the current
Imperial borders.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for
> days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by
> smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.
>
> ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 12:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Apr 24 11:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus> <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net> <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com> <200204240037330379.D4645864@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CC6F5FF.5070407@telocity.com>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

>>Hunter,
>>
>>The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
>>concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
>>printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
>>that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
>>likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.
>>
>>Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
>>into a single product for your Aide line?
>>
>
>It depends on what changes would be needed for a specific on-screen version.
>
Nothing big, I don't think.  The problem I have with the standard layout 
is that the page length is greater than the screen height at a readable 
resolution. When I go to full page mode, the resolution on my 19" 
monitor is something like 80%, and my tired old eyes can't handle that. 
<g> On smaller monitors, say a laptop, it would be even worse.  But when 
I set the resolution to a nice reading size, I only get a half to 
two-thirds of the page on the screen. Because of the two column format, 
I then have scroll up and down on every page. Scrolling up and down like 
that is a regular pain, especially when charts and tables are involved.

I can think of a couple of "easy" fixes, first if you provided a single 
column format, then it wouldn't really matter if the page length 
exceeded the screen height, as I would only have to scroll down as I 
read.  Alternatively, and a better (but most likely more difficult 
approach)  would be to reduce the page lengths by about half, then each 
page would fit on the screen in comfortable reading resolution.

Hunter, I don't know if either approach would qualify as easy, but 
consideration for something like that would be most appreciated by this 
member of your market.

Please, note I'm not suggesting you change the format for the 
printer-friendly version, that looks very nice. It's just that also 
having a screen-friendly version would be nice, too.

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 12:24:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Apr 24 11:24:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
>
> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]
>
>> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they'
>> wanted to trial in  the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras
were linked
>> to a database containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to
[deletion]
>> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
>> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of
>> 10,000 bodies would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals
>> free to go about  their crimes...
>

Matthew Bond replied:
>As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
>etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
>flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
>or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
>bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
>their identity will be free to go about their business.

I think you've both misstated what it means.  The CCTV will look at all
persons in the mall.  It will misidentify 4% of them.  If 10,000 persons are
scanned, 200 non-criminals will be wrongly identified as criminals and 200
criminals will be wrongly identified as non-criminals.

Jeff's error was to apply the 4% to the population of the city; only the
population being scanned by CCTV is at issue.  (That may, of course, be the
entire population of the city.)  Matthew's error was to apply the 4% only to
the people flagged for police attention.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 13:08:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 24 12:08:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHMEALCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

The only real PC floppy drive compatibility issues relate to the 5-1/4 in
floppies when using the same media between 360KB and 1.2MB drives. Although
a 1.2MB drive can write both 360KB and 1.2MB disks, a serious problem may
occur if the 1.2MB drive erases or writes to a disk previously formatted
with a 360KB drive and the data is then attempted to be read from a 360KB
drive. This will cause random data read errors due to the fact that the
1.2MB drive head is narrower than the 360KB drive head. Thus when the 360KB
drive reads the 1.2MB drive data from the disk, it inadvertently GLEANS the
previous data written by the original 360KB drive.

-Shawn R Sears-
(MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, A+, N+, CCNA)

CCNP Pending!  :-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 13:13:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 12:13:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423190649.00cb5d28@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20424.111826.4l6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I just finished reading Coventry.  Coventry was his "your right to swing 
> your fist ends at someone else's nose" system.
> That was America after the Second Revolution, that was civilization.
> If you rejected Coventry or were denied Coventry, you were sent to the 
> walled off section where the strong ruled the weak.

No. *Coventry* was where you got sent if you rejected the *Covenant*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 13:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Wed Apr 24 12:23:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Storyline Generator
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204231147070.600-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEAMCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> > >
> > > I don't think the Palm is worth 400 bucks just so I can play
> > > backgammon on the Metro.
> >
> > Ah, but there's also solitaire.
> >


For $399 you can get one with a built in cell phone, wireless message
service, email, and web browser

www.handspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:02:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:02:12 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people

>having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

Great. Give people one more reason not to reenlist. When I was in the
Marines the smoking rate was easily over 50%, at least among grunts. This
was back in the 80s, of course, so I imagine this has gone down some. 
As far as people having nic fits not being useful in combat, I wonder how
the millions of smoking combat veterans of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam would
feel about that.
We almost had a base-wide mutiny when North Carolina upped the drinking age
from 19 to 21 without a grandfather clause.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 3:00 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #438 - 7 msgs


Send TML mailing list submissions to
	tml@travellercentral.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: smells (Douglas Berry)
   2. Re: Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack") (Robert A. Uhl)
   3. Re: Re: stewards (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
   4. Re: smells (Robert A. Uhl)
   5. RE: smells (Swordy)
   6. Re: Traveller's Aide #1 (Eris Reddoch)
   7. RE: Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack") (Glenn M. Goffin)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:52:58 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] smells
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 12:07 AM 4/25/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > I smoke a cigarette (clove) about twice a year.  I can smell it about me
> > for days.  Taiyou no Megumi, and Oshima Tsubaki camellia oil shampoo not
> > withstanding!
>
>The way cigarette smoke clings is one of the reasons I seldom go to
>pubs these days. It's also way we used to try and get all the smokers
>assigned to other sections before an exercise (that and the fact that
>smoker's cough is not a good thing to be having in a tactical
>situation).

The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people 
having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for 
days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by 
smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.

ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:56:13 -0600
From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 03:20:51PM +0100, Matthew Bond wrote:
> 
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.

--__--__--

Message: 3
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: stewards
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:26:50 +0000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)

     "Economics? If Steward-0 is six weeks F/T at Chez Ronaldo's, then
there's going to be lots of those people available. As it happens I 
subscribe to the "spaceship pilots are going to be quite common,
actually" school but the relatively specialized (spaceship) skills are still

going to have greater market value through rarity."


Mr. Hudson,

     Yes, most likely economics or the usual human "we'll muddle through" 
and "it's good enough" attitudes.  It's only a week after all, you can get 
something good to eat, or sleep in a clean room, or whatever after we reach 
our next port.

     "OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than
Pilot-3 or Engineering-3 - those latter don't clearly affect the bottom 
line, after all."

     Most definitely.  Here in the Biggest Little and in many other locales,

restaurants advertise the chefs they have on staff.  There is a constant 
struggle to lure "names" away from your competitors and hold onto those you 
have.  Naturally for ever heavy hitter, there are dozens of third assistant 
bottle washers.
     If I were GMing today (alas), I'd most certainly present the PCs with 
an NPC super-duper-steward.  That fellow would ask for more pay and be a bit

of a prima-donna to handle, but he would also fill the cabins with high 
passengers and have high skilled, low wage NPC crewmen begging the PCs to 
sign on.  Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he

needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to 
insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.

PC - "Cilantro!??!  Just where in hades are we going to find cilantro on 
Roup?  Good Sweet Strephon, Melmotte, cilantro?!"

Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop 
for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze 
baronne merde?"


     Sincerely,
     Larsen
>
>   Steven Hudson
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:01:33 -0600
From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] smells
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also
> people having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.

So you make sure they're not addicts--you don't forbid them to smoke,
period.  Or you allow them other forms of nicotine: chewing tobacco,
while it has a distinctive odour, I don't think is as strong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`You know, there's a word for people who
 think that everyone is out to get them...'
`Yes! Perceptive!'           --Woody Allen

--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] smells
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:21:27 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hey, good plot device. Your team has been assigned to popularize tobacco use
among young Vargr to reduce their olfactory effectiveness should they decide
to join the other side in the brewing dissatisfaction with the current
Imperial borders.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for
> days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by
> smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.
>
> ObTrav: The Vargr are going to be *very* good at this.



--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:14:23 -0500
From: Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hunter Gordon wrote:

>>Hunter,
>>
>>The sample looks very good, but I'd like to make a suggestion
>>concerning layout.  The format you have now is great as a
>>printout, but what works for a printout just doesn't work all
>>that well for on-screen reading. And to be honest, I'm more
>>likely to use this product on-screen than as a printout.
>>
>>Would it be possible to bundle an on-screen and a printout format 
>>into a single product for your Aide line?
>>
>
>It depends on what changes would be needed for a specific on-screen
version.
>
Nothing big, I don't think.  The problem I have with the standard layout 
is that the page length is greater than the screen height at a readable 
resolution. When I go to full page mode, the resolution on my 19" 
monitor is something like 80%, and my tired old eyes can't handle that. 
<g> On smaller monitors, say a laptop, it would be even worse.  But when 
I set the resolution to a nice reading size, I only get a half to 
two-thirds of the page on the screen. Because of the two column format, 
I then have scroll up and down on every page. Scrolling up and down like 
that is a regular pain, especially when charts and tables are involved.

I can think of a couple of "easy" fixes, first if you provided a single 
column format, then it wouldn't really matter if the page length 
exceeded the screen height, as I would only have to scroll down as I 
read.  Alternatively, and a better (but most likely more difficult 
approach)  would be to reduce the page lengths by about half, then each 
page would fit on the screen in comfortable reading resolution.

Hunter, I don't know if either approach would qualify as easy, but 
consideration for something like that would be most appreciated by this 
member of your market.

Please, note I'm not suggesting you change the format for the 
printer-friendly version, that looks very nice. It's just that also 
having a screen-friendly version would be nice, too.

Eris


--__--__--

Message: 7
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
To: "Traveller-Digest" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:12:42 -0700
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
>
> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]
>
>> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they'
>> wanted to trial in  the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras
were linked
>> to a database containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to
[deletion]
>> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
>> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of
>> 10,000 bodies would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals
>> free to go about  their crimes...
>

Matthew Bond replied:
>As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
>etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
>flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
>or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
>bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
>their identity will be free to go about their business.

I think you've both misstated what it means.  The CCTV will look at all
persons in the mall.  It will misidentify 4% of them.  If 10,000 persons are
scanned, 200 non-criminals will be wrongly identified as criminals and 200
criminals will be wrongly identified as non-criminals.

Jeff's error was to apply the 4% to the population of the city; only the
population being scanned by CCTV is at issue.  (That may, of course, be the
entire population of the city.)  Matthew's error was to apply the 4% only to
the people flagged for police attention.

--Glenn



--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:14:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:14:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Who are we?
Message-ID: <20020424.130435.-189813.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

FWIW I saved all of them, 75 including Dominic's.

Turokan

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:36:26 -0400 "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> writes:
> Citizens of the TML at http://www.downport.com/traveller/TML.shtml 
> has been
> around a few years. I'm getting ready to do a periodic update if 
> anyone want
> s to add /delete / modify any or their bio info on there.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
> > --- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> > > Is anyone archiving these? ;-)
> >
> > I think I have most of them, but I haven't had tome to
> > sort through them yet.
> 
> 

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:21:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:21:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <20424.121604.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> For anyone that might know the answer:
>
> While working on my Mire landgrab, I have come up with a question that I 
> hope someone on the TML might know an answer for.  (Preferably a correct 
> one.  :-) )
>
> What is the minimum about of distance that two planets must maintain in 
> order to not disrupt the each other's orbits?  The reason I ask is that Mire 
> is listed as orbiting a tiny sun at a distance of .2 AU.  By default, the 
> next orbit is assigned to .4 AU.
>   Can that second planet orbit closer than .4 AU (maybe even .3 AU) without 
> affecting Mire's orbit?

It's not so much a matter of "how close" as the ratio of the orbital
periods. If two bodies have orbits such that one's period is a simple
multiple of the other, then you get *bad* effects. 

As an example, say there was a planet orbiting the sun at a distance
that would give it a 2 year period.

Every two years, earth would give it a "tug" towards the sun at the
same point it it's orbit. After a while, it'd be in a different orbit.

Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
of the period.

So, for my example above, a planet with twice the period of Earth:

D^2 = 2^3
D^2 = 8
D = sqrt(8)
D = 2.82 AU

For your planets, at .2 and .4 AU, if we call the period of the inner
planet 1, and the distance of the outer planet, 2 we get:

2^2 = P^3
4 = P^3
4^(1/3) = P 
1.59 = P

So the ratio of the periods is 1:1.59 and you *won't* get resonance
problems.

.2 AU is still 18.6 million miles (30 million km) so they aren't
exactly close...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:24:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:24:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <OF113CE2E0.677F0151-ON85256BA5.00569E86@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <20424.124156.7n8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
>>willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
>>out sewage.  I daresay I would.

Sometiomes it's what you are *able* to do. Right now, I could get by
with a fast food job. Trouble is, they involve standing for long
periods. Which I *cannot* do.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:27:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:27:27 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <20424.123910.5K5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>>
>> >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
>> 
>> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
>> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
>> aged and infirm.  
>
> I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
> that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
> at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?

Ah, but what about one that lets you "survive"? Not comfortable, just
"tolerable". No luxuries unless you decide to do without something
else...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:44:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:44:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <20424.124156.7n8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <01a701c1ebcf$03eb6280$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Not me, please give me the garbage, sewer cleaning job, as it pays well. the
problem is that so many service industry job are being created. while it
causes unemployment to go down it also means that you have to work 2 jobs
and 60 hours a week to keep a roof over your head. me and my wife work, and
I am trying to go to school to get my degree and certification for Cisco so
I can get a better paying job so my wife can go to school and hopefully get
a better paying job, the problem is, that I am almost afraid to say I will
not be as successful as my parents , so much for the American dream
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism


> In mail you write:
>
> >>Yup.  There's always someone hiring.  It's a matter of what one is
> >>willing to do.  Most of us, it seems, would rather starve than clean
> >>out sewage.  I daresay I would.
>
> Sometiomes it's what you are *able* to do. Right now, I could get by
> with a fast food job. Trouble is, they involve standing for long
> periods. Which I *cannot* do.
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 14:49:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Apr 24 13:49:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20424.123910.5K5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020424163654.00b94210@urbin.net>

At 12:39 PM 4/24/02 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> > >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> >> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled
> >> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The
> >> aged and infirm.
> > I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> > able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
> > that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
> > at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> > another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?
>Ah, but what about one that lets you "survive"? Not comfortable, just
>"tolerable". No luxuries unless you decide to do without something
>else...

$20,000 a year won't even get you "tolerable" in NYC.

In Mobile, Alabama, it's on the plus side of "reasonably"

Where you're at has a lot to do with it.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020424135724.009f6460@mindspring.com>

At 03:56 PM 4/24/02 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> >The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people
>
> >having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.
>
>Great. Give people one more reason not to reenlist. When I was in the
>Marines the smoking rate was easily over 50%, at least among grunts. This
>was back in the 80s, of course, so I imagine this has gone down some.
>As far as people having nic fits not being useful in combat, I wonder how
>the millions of smoking combat veterans of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam would
>feel about that.

Well, we learned that in Vietnam at least the VC often located US OPs by 
the smell of cigarette smoke.  Having addicts in the trenches does not aid 
in the mission.

>We almost had a base-wide mutiny when North Carolina upped the drinking age
>from 19 to 21 without a grandfather clause.

I was at Benning when that happened. The common reaction was "who cares" 
and the clubs on VD Drive never bothered to check IDs.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>
References: <20020423162037.44897.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com> <4dtbcu8iiv89t2a1910t7crm3hpinrd4ic@4ax.com> <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020425073936.A11272@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Hmm. Makes NZ's situation look even worse than it is. Our
> superannuation system was supposed to be a form of government
> subsidised savings,

That was what Australia's old-age pension used to be.  Although the
funds weren't lost, by the time the contributors reached retirement
age, the government had introduced assets and independent income tests
to prevent many of the original people from accessing their "savings",
and the original income taxes that funded the scheme had long since
been legislatively disconnected from the pension.

Now we've got compulsory superannuation.  Oh yes, it looks very
attractive at first -- heavy tax breaks, the government will match any
voluntary contributions up to a certain percentage of your income --
but I doubt I'll be allowed to touch it by the time I'm 55, ... no, 60
..., no, 65.  If there's anything left of it after slowly increasing
tax rates, that is.

Oops!  Not much relation to Traveller here.  Sorry!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC74404.23217.6E3D9E@localhost>
References: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 05:13:11PM -0700 <3CC74404.23217.6E3D9E@localhost>
Message-ID: <3cc920e4.11435731@post.demon.co.uk>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:

>If the wealthy want those they pass on the street to not offend their=20
>noses, why shouldn't they contribute towards the lower orders hygene?

Agreed - although I was more concerned about typhoid and cholera...
(and probably new, improved antibiotic-resistant cholera, too). =20

It's all about enlightened self-interest:  it's to my personal benefit
that everybody in my community has access to decent sanitation, even
the poorest.  I'm willing to pay for that through higher taxes.
(though I'd draw the line at filling swimming pools or watering
20-acre lawns;  you shouldn't get subsidies for that...<g>).

=46or the same reason I support giving subsidies to public transport,
even by people who never use it - because they still benefit from
clearer roads, more parking spaces and less pollution.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <E170Gfy-0007Z8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8ecd76ee706@[143.232.119.186]>

At 11:53 PM -0700 4/23/02, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote
>
>>  What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a
>>  fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who think
>>  they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to complain
>>  that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and agitate
>>  for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact that lead
>>  to such a system in the first place, since the rationale that supports
>>  it can be easily used to support increases, and whether society wants
>>  to try and "buy" them off).
>
>I believe a guaranteed income should be a fundamental right and
>that it soon will be be one in much of the First World.

So those of us who work are expected to make sure every gets money 
regardless of what they do?  I think that is both morally wrong (what 
right do other peole have on the fruit of my efforts) and unworkable 
(such system have always become burdened by those who abuse them).

>
>>  There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family (?).
>>   It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those who
>>  went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this is
>>  the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of
>>  "non-working" class in Europe....
>
>Given how rapidly automation is advancing (much modern office
>work will be obsolete in under 20 years), we are almost certainly
>going to have a combination of increasing GNPs *and* an
>increasing number of people out of work in the entire First World. 
>Why should they not share in the bounty of an economy that no
>longer has need for (and in fact, likely cannot deal with) for
>everyone to be employed.

If you want to have a system for those who can't find work that is 
one thing.  But that is a far cry from guaranteed income.

And this whole "technology will create a class of people with nothing 
to do" is nothing more than a recycling of the Ludditism of the 
Industrial Revolution.  The money saved by automation creates demand 
for more products and services by those with the money which creates 
jobs.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:52:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:52:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <20424.121604.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com> <20424.121604.5i1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020425074906.B11272@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
> of the period.

Oops, it's the other way around :)

(2 pi / T)^2 = G M / R^3
so T^2 = k R^3, where k = (2 pi)^2 / (G M)


> .2 AU is still 18.6 million miles (30 million km) so they aren't
> exactly close...

Indeed.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 15:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Apr 24 14:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC74249.9558.677A81@localhost>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204230941320.14292-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <3CC74249.9558.677A81@localhost>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8ecd9104997@[143.232.119.186]>

At 11:39 PM +1200 4/24/02, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 23 Apr 2002 at 17:26, David P. Summers wrote:
>
>>  A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more people living on
>>  public assistance.  (It may not be 50%, but it will depend on what
>>  the level is set at).
>
>Curiously even though this is effectively the case in this country
>unemployment and beneficiary numbers are more dependant on other
>factors than on how much money is paid out to 'dole bludgers' and I
>very much doubt that this would change unless quite a lot more money
>was paid to them.

I don't know if New Zeland is a small, relatively isolated, country 
that is an exception (though I must say I have my doubts) but from 
the Roman Empire, to the Soviet Union, to European welfare states we 
have seen enough to that if they don't have to work, a significant 
fraction of society will go for the free ride.

>
>>  What is more, in approached like this the money is considered a
>>  fundamental "right".  This creates an entire class of people who
>>  think they have a right to expect to be supported.  People begin to
>>  complain that it doesn't provide a good enough standard of living and
>>  agitate for more (whether they get it depends on how strong the fact
>>  that lead to such a system in the first place, since the rationale
>>  that supports it can be easily used to support increases, and whether
>>  society wants to try and "buy" them off).
>>
>>  There was a show in Britain which followed a working class family
>>  (?).  It included footage of people on the dole making fun of those
>>  who went out and got jobs as stupid for doing so.  In line with this
>>  is the data on long term unemployment points toward the creation of
>>  "non-working" class in Europe....
>
>Until the economy is in a state where the demand for labour is such
>that industries are short of it and people are still refusing to work
>it really doesn't matter if some (or most) of the people not working
>aren't because they can't be bothered.

Of course when jobs come along, why should they be bothered then?  A 
lot of the issue was the _contempt_ for the idea that one should be 
expected to work for a living....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 16:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed Apr 24 15:01:03 2002
Subject: Beer (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <20020424123206.EE8A027A4A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008b01c1ebdb$e8dac0a0$e65d8690@computer>

> From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> As a New Zealander I just had to make that dig. Can't have the Aussies
> thinking they brew better beer than we.

Actually, the best beer in the world is brewed in Australia:  Guinness. : )

Most British and Irish beers brewed in Australia have higher alcohol
contents than the original versions, to allow them to compete in the market
here.

I actually prefer Kilkenny to Guinness.  I drink different beers in
different pubs.  In one, I tend to drink Boddington's.  In others, I drink
good old XXXX (brewed in Brisbane), with VB (from Melbourne) an "if all else
fails" option.  The last two are basically cat urine, but drinkable in
sufficient quantities.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 16:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Apr 24 15:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Question on planetary orbits
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424234029.00ab4ef0@mail.pi.se>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

 >It's not so much a matter of "how close" as the ratio of the orbital
 >periods. If two bodies have orbits such that one's period is a simple
 >multiple of the other, then you get *bad* effects.

Not necessarily. Gliese 876's two known planets are in a 2:1 resonance, 
both are massive and on short period orbits. I think HD82943 is another 
example. Jupiter's inner three moons are in a 2:1 resonance series, a 
Laplace resonance. Resonance can provide stability to a planetary or lunar 
system, and it may be a not uncommon feature to have planets captured into 
2:1 and 3:1 resonances, based upon simulations of orbital migration.

 >Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
 >of the period.

Keplers third law is that the square of the period is proportional to the 
cube of the distance.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 16:37:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 24 15:37:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020424.145416.-149337.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 16:38:27 -0400 Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> At 12:39 PM 4/24/02 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >In mail you write:
> > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> > > >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> > >> Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled
> > >> (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The
> > >> aged and infirm.
> > > I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> > > able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  
> Except
> > > that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me 
> live
> > > at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> > > another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am 
> lazy?
> >Ah, but what about one that lets you "survive"? Not comfortable, 
> just
> >"tolerable". No luxuries unless you decide to do without something
> >else...
> 
> $20,000 a year won't even get you "tolerable" in NYC.
> 
> In Mobile, Alabama, it's on the plus side of "reasonably"
> 
> Where you're at has a lot to do with it.
> 

Well, I hate to butt in here, but I'm a prime example of the above
conversation.

I'm disabled as you all know, pulling in roughly $17.5k via S.S. and my
disability pension. My wife doesn't work, and must take care of me. We
were basically kicked out of the SF Bay area, and now live in an
"afordable" housing apartment in Stockton with our 21 year old son who
works part time, and helped us qualify for our rent.  Tolerable is barely
the word for it. After our 25th wedding aniversary next month, we may
divorce just so that my wife can receive SSI. If we do, then our life
here might be considered tolerable.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
Message-ID: <147.d7848aa.29f899cd@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/24/2002 2:04:39 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:

>Finally, as Kiri pointed out, any type of smoked weed can be smelled for 
>days at great distances.  We used to find ambushes at Ft. Benning by 
>smelling the tobacco clinging to the soldiers clothing.

That's why I never understood those commercials for [various products] to 
remove tobacco stains from the teeth. They usually take the following form:

"A: Have you quit smoking?
B: Uh . . . what do you think?
A: Your teeth are so white . . . "

I never understood this because in my experience just being in the same room 
with a smoker can make one's clothes _reek_ of tobacco for days. I could 
always tell when my brother gave up trying to quit, and when my nephew took 
up pot on a regular basis.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <147.d7848aa.29f899cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>

Try being allergic to cig smoke.
It makes being out in public very unhappy, especially when I don't sneeze,
but develope the all over body itch. VERY nasty.

Then again I do a lot of hiking and I know that folks in the field develop a
special smell that they don't notice till they clean up. At least we act
like we don't notice ;)

TV

--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <20020424095613.D12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250924020.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Robert:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

 The incorrect response is "Sorry Man I've only got a pipe."

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 17:59:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 16:59:36 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <20020424110133.E12492@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250925440.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Robert:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 08:52:58AM -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> >
> > The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also
> > people having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.
>
> So you make sure they're not addicts--you don't forbid them to smoke,
> period.  Or you allow them other forms of nicotine: chewing tobacco,
> while it has a distinctive odour, I don't think is as strong.

 Yes in the field we did only eat native food. As the VC could smell us
miles away. All the nice products that the service present to us have
distinctive smells. From shaving materials to the gun oil. Making us
olafactory targets.

 As for smoking, this is a touchy subject. i happen to be pro smoking. But
if it is a way soon to beat the draft. Well I know a lot of people that
will take it up. A mess more that would have used it back in 68. <G>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:06:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:06:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
> Matthew Bond replied:
> >As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> >etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> >flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> >or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> >bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> >their identity will be free to go about their business.
>
> I think you've both misstated what it means.  The CCTV will look at all
> persons in the mall.  It will misidentify 4% of them.  If 10,000 persons
are
> scanned, 200 non-criminals will be wrongly identified as criminals and 200
> criminals will be wrongly identified as non-criminals.
>
> Jeff's error was to apply the 4% to the population of the city; only the
> population being scanned by CCTV is at issue.  (That may, of course, be
the
> entire population of the city.)  Matthew's error was to apply the 4% only
to
> the people flagged for police attention.
>
> --Glenn

Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in
the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database? It
is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken as one in 25
of the members of the database will be misidentified... If there was only
one picture in the database is there a 4% chance that any given person will
be identified as it? Or much more likely, if there was only one person in
the database 4% of the time the system would report 'no match' when
analysing a picture of that individual.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250925440.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link writes:

>  As for smoking, this is a touchy subject. i happen to be pro smoking. But
> if it is a way soon to beat the draft. Well I know a lot of people that
> will take it up. A mess more that would have used it back in 68. <G>

Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine they'd
just draft you anyway and force you to quit.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHMEALCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Shawn:

Comments below quoted.

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Shawn R Sears wrote:

> The only real PC floppy drive compatibility issues relate to the 5-1/4 in
> floppies when using the same media between 360KB and 1.2MB drives. Although
> a 1.2MB drive can write both 360KB and 1.2MB disks, a serious problem may
> occur if the 1.2MB drive erases or writes to a disk previously formatted
> with a 360KB drive and the data is then attempted to be read from a 360KB
> drive. This will cause random data read errors due to the fact that the
> 1.2MB drive head is narrower than the 360KB drive head. Thus when the 360KB
> drive reads the 1.2MB drive data from the disk, it inadvertently GLEANS the
> previous data written by the original 360KB drive.

 All of the above is interesting. But not my main Traveller theme part.
For example <composing a reply to a prior msg with this topic> The entire
premise above is dealing with the measurements of the micro$haft style of
disks and formatting. i use Commodore exclusively. First we measure in
blocks 4 = 1kb. The single sided drives read thes disk at 664 C= blocks.
This is the 1541 disk drive. If I can do the math right that is 166kb Then
the 1571 dreive is a double head reader. Now the Comodore built 3 1/2"
drive did the double sided double density disks and formatted at 800kb
free. 790kb free if formatted in the Geos/Wheels OS environment. CMD's
FD-2000 does the DD/DS 3 1/2" disks but also the high density disks and
formats them at 1.6MB. Commodore never made a high density 5 1/4" drive.
Any one want a collection of the HD 5 1/4" disks? Got a mess of them some
factory. Make great targets. <G>

 Anyway what my Traveller computer premise is about is not only different
eras of computers of the same platform. But different standards amongst
the history of the Imperium and the subjective worlds. From multiple
companies in the Imperium. All the ay to the different tech level worlds
that have some sort of Imperial contact.

 Now then all tat said. We have talked about some converting things. using
what I know which is a samttering of the techy stuff for the Commodore
world. i have tools that allow translation on my system. Allowing me to
translate from Pet to Ascii and back again. So that part is covered for
text. I also have tools that allow scaling of JPGs and GIFs. These at
videocam. That allow for my screen size. I have tools to pas along to the
windoze and Amiga users that allow the text translation for my preferred
DT <Desk Top> system Geos. Even the ability to make .D64 image files for
the emulator users.

 OK what I am looking at on this topic is the same type of things in tols
and utils for converting different standards and platforms in the 3I.
Based and projecting from the exisitng styles we have now. Putting that
into the CT game.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Wed Apr 24 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250956500.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Anthony:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine they'd
> just draft you anyway and force you to quit.

 i don't know about the draft. The last I heard it takes a fast vote in
congress to reinstate it. On this I am not certain. I personally am way to
old to be drafted. But they can recall me if needed. ALmost happened in
Desert Storm. But smokers that fight the quit part would most likely be
discharged under the unfit for military service clauses. Which I
understand there are many classifications for that now. But I have been
out of the military since 71. Oh FWIW I don't smoke cigs, being a pipe
smoker for 40+ years. Nope don'T want to quit and my O2 rate last year was
99% at my physical. <G>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250956500.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019696542.4978.ajackson@ping>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link writes:
> Hoi Anthony:
> 
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> > Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine
> > they'd just draft you anyway and force you to quit.
> 
>  i don't know about the draft. The last I heard it takes a fast vote in
> congress to reinstate it.
Sure, congress is theoretically able to reinstate the draft.  They're just
vanishingly unlikely to want to.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 19:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 18:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425073936.A11272@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3CC7432E.449.6AF819@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC800BE.5191.7D9315@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 7:39, Timothy Little wrote:

> That was what Australia's old-age pension used to be.  Although the
> funds weren't lost, by the time the contributors reached retirement
> age, the government had introduced assets and independent income tests
> to prevent many of the original people from accessing their "savings",
> and the original income taxes that funded the scheme had long since
> been legislatively disconnected from the pension.

Sounds like the same old story.
 
> Now we've got compulsory superannuation.  Oh yes, it looks very
> attractive at first -- heavy tax breaks, the government will match any
> voluntary contributions up to a certain percentage of your income --
> but I doubt I'll be allowed to touch it by the time I'm 55, ... no, 60
> ..., no, 65.  If there's anything left of it after slowly increasing
> tax rates, that is.

I think that's where we're headed. The previous government had this 
system where you could set up your fund with a commercial provider, and 
therefore it should be safe from the government. Of course you're then 
relying on the provider being around when you retire, and the terms and 
conditions not being quietly changed. And of course you're also having 
to pay for the profits of the provider out of your interest.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 19:15:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 18:15:58 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424095400.C12492@4dv.net>
References: <200204241333.EXB01635@vmms1.verisignmail.com>; from jtkwon@jtkgroup.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400
Message-ID: <3CC800BD.22553.7D928D@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 9:54, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 09:33:46AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >
> > >Why should someone who does nothing get anything?
> > 
> > Orphaned children.  Paraplegics.  The mentally disabled 
> > (whether schizophrenic or of extremely low intellect).  The 
> > aged and infirm.  
> 
> I meant in the general, not the particular, case.  I'm a fairly
> able-bodied young man--there's no reason I should not work.  Except
> that I hate working with a passion.  Give me a dole that lets me live
> at all reasonably ($20,000/yr should do it) and I'll never work
> another day in my life.  Should I be subsidised because I am lazy?

As long as there are more people willing to work then there are slots 
available, why not? By not working you're accepting a lower income in 
order to make the slot you'd have taken open for another who wants it 
more than you. This works until there's a labour shortage and people 
are still not working, at which point continuing to pay non-workers 
will be a disaster.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Wed Apr 24 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <200204250229.g3P2T6G09549@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: stewards
...
>"OTOH, Steward-3 on a luxury liner may be worth a lot more than Pilot-3
...
>     If I were GMing today (alas), I'd most certainly present the PCs with 
>an NPC super-duper-steward.  That fellow would ask for more pay and be a bit 
>of a prima-donna to handle, but he would also fill the cabins with high 
>passengers and have high skilled, low wage NPC crewmen begging the PCs to 
>sign on.  Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he 
>needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to 
>insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.

  Why an NPC? It seems like a great excuse for not being
too useful in the firefights that the D&D'ers keep trying 
to provoke. It might even be combined with some social
skills or a problem-solving approach :)

  But if an NPC, then the occasional review of "Fawlty
Towers" should be considered!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 20:32:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 19:32:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person
> in 25 in the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of
> the database?

That's far better than the failure rate of many previous systems.


> It is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken
> as one in 25 of the members of the database will be misidentified.

If you'd ever done any image-recognition work, you'd know that a 4%
false-positive rate is extraordinarily good for "in the field" runs,
at an acceptable false-negative rate.

What you seem to be saying is that the system has a 4% false-negative
rate and a false-positive rate somewhere less than 0.1%.

If that's really what they meant, either the system designers are the
best geniuses this side of Andromeda, or they're snake-oil salesmen.
I'm betting on the latter, if they're really claiming what you say.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 21:35:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed Apr 24 20:35:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <200204231451.AA32178488@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1ec0a$1bc04ca0$0b01a8c0@duck>

Thank you all for the answers.  Just a little more explanation:

While working on my Mire landgrab, I ran its configuration through Heaven
and Earth.  When I did that, I got a really interesting system, which
included three planets (in addition to Mire) with a type "6" atmosphere and
a > 1 hydrosphere.  Too bad the star is a measley K6 V!  (Actually it was
two planets and one moon, and the moon orbits one of these planets.)

Anyway, I really wanted to make the second planet (the one without the moon)
habitable (i.e. really cold, not frozen solid like I got in the first
place).  So I had to start fudging numbers.  Actually, I doubt that it would
still be warm enough where I put it, but I figure it should be close enough.
:-)

BTW, that is the one main frustration I had with H&E:  it forces the orbit
distances.  So, orbit 0 is *always* .2 AU, orbit 1 is *always* .4 AU.  This
means that for the smaller suns that nice warm planet from canon discription
is really frozen solid.  (Either that or the planet ends up being too close
and is an inferno with a "base" climate temperature of 45+ C.)  The program
has no way to tweak the orbital distance.  The only way I could simulate
that was to vary the size of the star until I got close to the temperatures
I needed.

In case anyone is actually curious as to what I have so far, the description
is at http://www.caddocourt.com/traveller/mire/ .  (If you go one level
higher to http://www.caddocourt.com/traveller you can see my Daryen page and
my other landgrab attempts.)  It is still very much a work in progress, but
it is starting to take shape.

Again, thanks for the help.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:06:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:06:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
References: <F2090Q5B71GmFs40SIq0000224a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC77F60.88D8F9C8@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
>
>    <snip> Keeping the super-steward happy and finding all the incidentals he
> needs to provide five-star service to the passengers would allow a GM to
> insert all sorts of shenanigans into a campaign.
>
> PC - "Cilantro!??!  Just where in hades are we going to find cilantro on
> Roup?  Good Sweet Strephon, Melmotte, cilantro?!"
>
> Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop
> for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze
> baronne merde?"
>
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen

I've done this with a Vargar steward on my groups ship. Keeping her in fresh
meat is a real challenge at points. Especially since she insists on sharing it
all with the passengers and crew. Hadn't really thought of the ingredient angle.
Thanks Larsen.



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Sorry doesn't put thumbs on the hands, Marge.
                          -Homer Simpson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:09:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:09:59 2002
Subject: Beer (was: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS In the Navy....)
References: <20020424123206.EE8A027A4A@mail.travellercentral.com> <008b01c1ebdb$e8dac0a0$e65d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CC77FE1.1580CF1F@premier.net>


Alan Bradley wrote:
> 
> > From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> > As a New Zealander I just had to make that dig. Can't have the Aussies
> > thinking they brew better beer than we.
> 
> Actually, the best beer in the world is brewed in Australia:  Guinness. : )
> 
> Most British and Irish beers brewed in Australia have higher alcohol
> contents than the original versions, to allow them to compete in the market
> here.

Ah, then 307 Ale would find a ready market in Australia:

http://www.tomsmithonline.com/lyrics/307ale.htm

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:25:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:25:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>

< snip debate on system accuracy >

More grist for the mill at:

http://www.visionics.com/faceit/faqs/recog.html

Keep in mind this is info from the company that sells the technology.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:30:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:30:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
In-Reply-To: <3CC77F60.88D8F9C8@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B8ECD20F.58816%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/24/02 9:00 PM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

>> Melmotte (in cheesy french accent) - "I muss haf eet.  I muss make ze zoop
>> for ze baronne!  He will demand it!  Zoot alors!  You wish me to serf ze
>> baronne merde?"
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> Larsen
> 
> I've done this with a Vargar steward on my groups ship. Keeping her in fresh
> meat is a real challenge at points. Especially since she insists on sharing it
> all with the passengers and crew. Hadn't really thought of the ingredient
> angle.
> Thanks Larsen.

I once ran an Aftermath campaign where the players were kept busy looking
for ingredients for an omelet by a deranged gourmand in return for some
penicillin.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:38:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:38:36 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
References: <3CC73DFE.1550.56B779@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC785BE.E6ACFF88@premier.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> On 23 Apr 2002 at 13:04, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
> > The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST
> > series is that everyone is an officer.
> 
> That didn't bother me in the slightest, seeing as there were often
> engineering officers doing what we'd have ratings employed at.
> Obviously the later Star Trek period saw a lot of 'job inflation' in
> the Federation. Probably some bureaucrat thought it'd help morale or
> recruitment if everyone in Starfleet got to be an officer.

I suspect that the rank inflation of the ST universe (and many other
fictional universes) has more to do with the observation that Robert
Heinlein (adroitly bringing the thread back to its title) made in _Job:
A Comedy of Justice_ that civilians automatically seem to equate
themselves with officers, regardless of the actual position the
civilians in question hold in the employment and/or social hierarchy.

One of the things that annoyed me most about Twilight: 2000 (second
edition) is that, according to the chargen rules, I did not exist. 
According to T2K (2e), only Military Intelligence officers could perform
interrogator duties; enlisted MI types were treated as equivalent to
Support branch (i.e., mechanics and the like).  As an enlisted
interrogator (MOS 97E4P) who currently has 18+ years of experience in
the field, I was (understandably, I think) quite put out by this chargen
rule, especially since very few MI commissioned officers in the US Army
_ever_ learn how to interrogate prisoners of war.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:46:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:46:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500
References: <147.d7848aa.29f899cd@aol.com> <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20020424223740.A14385@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
>
> Try being allergic to cig smoke.

That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
<http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.

Perhaps you're slightly asthmatic, or have other allergies which smoke
in generl triggers?


-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I have a love for coding.  I have a love for staying up for days at a
time living off of Tea and Cigarettes, doing nothing but wearing the
letters off of the keys in front of my computer.  My bills have a love
for being paid on time.                                 --Jace of Fuse!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 22:55:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Wed Apr 24 21:55:28 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>; from ajackson@molly.iii.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:07:21PM -0700
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250925440.30393-100000@vcsweb.com> <ML-2.3.1019693241.5566.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020424224232.B14385@4dv.net>

On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 05:07:21PM -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Well, in the unlikely event of the draft being reinstated, I imagine they'd
> just draft you anyway and force you to quit.

I'd claim smoking is part of my philosophy (i.e. religion).
C.S. Lewis smoked, J.R.R. Tolkien smoked, G.K. Chesterton smoked, and
frankly I care more about the dust which clung to their heals than all
the words and thoughts of the Koops and Kesslers of this world.

Not that this has anything to do with military service.  Not being an
addict, I have gone for quite extended periods of time without
tobacco, when the sitution warranted.  No doubt I'll do so again.  So
I could quite cheerfully go into the bush for awhile, come out,
shower, shave, light a nice pipe and relax.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd' - Ian Lamb, age 3.5

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 23:03:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Wed Apr 24 22:03:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
Message-ID: <3CC74587.16615.16FC24A@localhost>

--Message-Boundary-12821
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body

heres the second in my series of conversions


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you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
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   ---- File information -----------
     File:  TL12 200,000-ton Kokirrak-class Dreadnought.htm
     Date:  24 Apr 2002, 23:52
     Size:  6613 bytes.
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--Message-Boundary-12821--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 23:18:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 22:18:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> http://www.visionics.com/faceit/faqs/recog.html
> 
> Keep in mind this is info from the company that sells the technology.

Yep.  It's actually worse than I thought.  On internal comparison
tests on a standardised database, its best error sum is above 1%.  A
reasonable rule of thumb in image recognition, is that in typical
deployed conditions error rates (of both types) go up by at least an
order of magnitude over standardised test data.  That's assuming
no-one is actually trying to fool the system!

That means that if you want 90% detection of known criminals or
troublemakers, you'll have to put up with misidentifying *at least* 5%
of the general public as people in the database.  A rather small
shopping mall would have say 10000 people passing through in a day,
that's about 500 false alarms.

Worse still, the 'tails' of feature set detection lengthen in
realistically noisy data, which means that reducing the threshold has
less effect on error rates in real conditions than in standardized
data.  So while reducing the threshold by 5% may halve the
false-positive rate in test data, it may only reduce false-positives
by 30% in real data.  So you get double-hit by real noise: Not only do
your error rates go up, but your ability to reduce errors by reducing
the threshold for detection goes down.

Ignoring the likelihood that people are going to deliberately spoof
the system, let's say you want a false-positive rate of less than 1%
(100 innocent members of the public bothered per shopping mall per
day).  Judging by their own graphs, I'd be very surprised to see 50%
effectiveness at detecting known troublemakers in real conditions.

Including the fact that some of the people in the database *will* try
to avoid detection, I'd put the hit rate at more like 20%.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Apr 24 23:36:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Wed Apr 24 22:36:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com> <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>

> Judging by their own graphs, I'd be very surprised to see 50%
> effectiveness at detecting known troublemakers in real conditions.
>
> Including the fact that some of the people in the database *will* try
> to avoid detection, I'd put the hit rate at more like 20%.
>

Given the current state of the art, how long do you think it will be before
the performance of this system is able to live up to the hype?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 00:10:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Apr 24 23:10:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> >The US Army is on the verge of banning smoking for that reason. Also people
> >having nic fits are really not that useful in combat.
> Great. Give people one more reason not to reenlist. When I was in the
> Marines the smoking rate was easily over 50%, at least among grunts. This

Well, I wouldn't want to be in the field with smokers. It has no good
points, and many bad.

Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even farther with image
intensifiers. Also, you might want not to leave much stuff around, which
is quite hard if you have to remember collecting everything you smoke.

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 00:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Wed Apr 24 23:14:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <3CC6F5FF.5070407@telocity.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423170330.0244f830@pop3.norton.antivirus>
 <200204230604120304.D0690AB1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3CC63226.1070105@telocity.com>
 <200204240037330379.D4645864@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
 <3CC6F5FF.5070407@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <200204250108350264.D9A71D60@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/24/2002 at 1:14 PM Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>I can think of a couple of "easy" fixes, first if you provided a single 
>column format, then it wouldn't really matter if the page length 
>exceeded the screen height, as I would only have to scroll down as I 
>read.  Alternatively, and a better (but most likely more difficult 
>approach)  would be to reduce the page lengths by about half, then each 
>page would fit on the screen in comfortable reading resolution.
>
>Hunter, I don't know if either approach would qualify as easy, but 
>consideration for something like that would be most appreciated by this 
>member of your market.

Hmm. Its something I will definately look into. The main problem I see=
 though is we would have to layout the PDF twice for each edition. once for=
 a 'print' version and once for an 'on-screen' version. I'll have to talk=
 to Steve and see what he thinks it might add time-wise on his part to=
 handle it.

It would also be an interesting question to pose to those who buy the PDFs,=
 to see if there is a larger preference one way or another.

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 00:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Apr 24 23:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt> <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com> <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net> <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020425163025.A12453@freeman.little-possums.net>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> Given the current state of the art, how long do you think it will be
> before the performance of this system is able to live up to the
> hype?

Same answer that I'd give to any other prediction about near future
technology; fusion power, paperless office, a machine able to
understand natural spoken language, house-cleaning robots, generally
available space tourism, and widespread acceptance of video phones and
electric cars: "20 years" :)

(Of course, most of these were "20 years" away in the 1960s...)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 01:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 00:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Complicated Orbital Dynamics Question (I think)
In-Reply-To: <20020420102803.C4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020419155305.A397C279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020419175321.63FBA279D4@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020420102803.C4777@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020425175119.A12598@freeman.little-possums.net>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Let 't' be the number of orbits (or fractional orbits).  Then
>   theta = 2 arctan ((1+e) tan(pi t) / sqrt(1-e^2)).  (I hope)

It looks like my hopes were dashed.  That's what I get for doing
orbital dynamics on an empty stomach!  The (hopefully *this* time)
correct formula is

pi t = arctan (sqrt(1-e^2) tan (theta/2) / (1+e))
       - (e sqrt(1-e^2) sin theta) / 2(1 + e cos theta) 

(If you forget the second line like I did, you get my incorrect
formula above).  Unfortunately this expression can't be simply solved
for theta like the previous one.  You can easily find the time for a
given position, but that's not very useful :)  You'll need to use a
numerical method to find the position at a given time.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: How long is the Galactica?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020423183217.00ac19d8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEFBHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Jimmy Simpson wrote :

> IMHO, there was precisely 1 good episode of Galactica 
> 1980, "The Return of Starbuck".

Was that about a newly-reopened coffe franchise ?

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:47:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:47:57 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b8eb83b1f99b@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAAEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

David P. Summers wrote :
> A guaranteed minimum income _will_ result in more
> people living on public assistance.  (It may not
> be 50%, but it will depend on what the level is set at).

I think the 200AD "Judge Dredd" series shows what such a society
would turn into.

(200AD has always been very good SF IMO, even if some of the
stories and characters were relatively puerile, it does explore
the issues, both social and technological like SF is supposed
to ).

Not only would people not work, but because of the lack of
workers, more and more things would have to be automated,
companies would find it harder to make a profit, and as part of
the circle, the number of available jobs would actually reduce to
the point where having more than one would become illegal.

> What is more, in approached like this the money is
> considered a fundamental "right".  This creates an
> entire class of people who think they have a right
> to expect to be supported.

This has happened in many "western" countries including New
Zealand, England, and Holland to name the ones that I'm
personally familiar with.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:50:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:50:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RPGs
In-Reply-To: <95.1b594c7e.29f6ba34@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :
> tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> > GDW, Chaosium, WRG, TSR, Flying Buffalo, Steve Jackson,
> > Steve Curtis, and many other primarily wargaming
> > companies were all in the process of adding fantasy
> > wargaming and roleplaying systems of various forms
> > to their wargames, largely due to the popularity
> > of "Lord of the Rings" at the time. These were based
> > originally on personalization details for their army
> > "generals" and "special figures", and also on the trend
> > toward small scale "skirmish" wargames where the individual
> > figures were heavily personalized and even given "character",
> > of which "Chainmail" was just one, and not the most
> > influential either.
>
> You've obviously done considerable research if you
> know of Steve Curtis -- few people do nowadays.

It's not research, just memory. I was heavily involved in
wargaming at the time.
I still have a lot of boardganes and few thousand lead figures in
various scales.

I have a letter from Steve's dad telling me of his unfortunate
death somewhere.
I had ordered another copy of his Old West Skirmish rules, as my
original had become pretty heavily worn (they were only
gestetners or photocopies of the typed manuscripts at the the
time, no fancy printing like you get these days <grin>), along
with a new pair of d20's, and his dad filled the order and gave
me the news.

> >While I'm not going to deny D&D's importance, it was not, IMO,
> >neccessary for the development of roleplaying.
>
> I'm not as certain of that as you are . . . let us
> agree to disagree.

Certainy. I was, after all, merely expressing my opinion.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:53:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:53:58 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <3CC74249.2877.6779B3@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are
> by officers in the Captain to Colonel range, with
> the next group being those run by Generals, though
> these are quite often one General  replacing another
> and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have
> to do more reading, methinks.

You will, a coup in one of the West Inddian isles (Grenada?) was
led by a Corporal, IIRC

And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 02:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 01:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020424.145416.-149337.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> Well, I hate to butt in here, but I'm a prime
> example of the above conversation.
>
> I'm disabled as you all know, pulling in roughly
> $17.5k via S.S. and my disability pension.

Just to show that "tolerable" is definitely relative:

What you are are earning on your benefits, is, when translated to
New Zealand dollars, almost _twice_ both the average wage, and
twice what a family of _six_ would be expected to live on in New
Zealand on the unemployment benefit.

It is more than what a non-senior teacher would earn and about
what a policeman would earn here after a year or so on the job.
It is approximately 1.25 times what I earned as an NCO avionics
technician in the Air Force

However, outside of a few high cost areas lke New York city and
the Silcon Valley environs, the cost of living in New Zealand is
not appreciably lower than that in the US (at least according to
my sister who has recently returned from  the US), so what (you
seem to be implying) constitutes hardship for you, would be
considered moderately well to do in New Zealand.

Of course, I'm sure someone from Russia could point out they
could live like a king on 17.5K USD p.a.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 03:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr 25 02:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8A@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Pitt [mailto:frankie@mundens.gen.nz]
> Sent: 25 April 2002 09:57
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] RE: Bayonets
> 
> 
> Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> > Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are
> > by officers in the Captain to Colonel range, with
> > the next group being those run by Generals, though
> > these are quite often one General  replacing another
> > and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have
> > to do more reading, methinks.
> 
> You will, a coup in one of the West Inddian isles (Grenada?) was
> led by a Corporal, IIRC
> 
> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.
> 
> Frankie

And IIRC Idi Amin was a Sergeant

Matt 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:12:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:12:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <200204241458.EXD05545@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20425.005842.9d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn says
> <snip about the "smart" camera system>
>
> The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
> the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
> Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
> to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
> serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
> incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
> be.
>
> Factor in the following:
>
> a.  Criminal warrant issued, but no picture
> b.  Criminal warrant issued, but not entered into database in 
> a timely manner
> c.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
> found not guilty, data not updated
> d.  Criminal warrant issued, served, criminal prosecuted and 
> does his time, is released, and data not updated

e. Criminal warrant issued, data entry goof and innocent person's data
attached.

This happens with depressing regularity with systems that are used by
local police and sheriffs departments to put out wants & warrants info
nationwide. 

Several incidents were reported in comp.risks over the years. One of
the problems is that far to many of the systems that local deparetments
feed the data from *other* departments into have no provisions for
receiving *corrections*.

At least one person had to get a signed, notarized letter from the
department that had issued the original erroneus report and carry it
with him when travelling as otherwise any time he got stopped for
*anything*, he'd wind up in the local jail waiting for their attempts
to arrange for him to be picked up and transferred to come back with a
"Huh? We don't want that guy..."

The letter merely changes things so that he can get the department
that's picked him up to actually make a direct *call* to the original
department, and it has enough info that even if the get a new clerk on
the other end, he only loses an hour or two instead of a day or two.

And in spite of the hassles, it's just plain *not* worth trying to sue,
because he'd have to travel *back* to East Podunk (or whereever they
picked him up) for the trial...

> I bet the actual error rate is over 50 percent.  Just go on 
> the web and look at the state of Maryland's sex offender 
> registry.  They state up front that they can't keep it up to 
> date.  They don't really know where these people live.  I 
> spoke to someone in that department, and they said that the 
> only way to find out accurate information about a particular 
> individual is to call and ask for an actual check - they go 
> out and find the individual in question.

Yeah. It's no better with the "private" databases the departments
assemble from the stuff they get off the "wire". 

> The culture and infrastructure for systems like these to be 
> near 100 percent accurate do not exist.

Well, some day, an "important" person will get hit *badly* by one, and
maybe get Congress to pass a law that will attempt to require more
checking of data.

OBTrav should be obvious. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:15:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:15:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B88@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <20425.012317.8s4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>  And
>> who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
>> crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or 
>> just those
>> detained by the police at some previous time?  What about 
>> those who have
>> already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going 
>> to be harassed
>> by the police.
>
> I would expect that the idea was to only inclued persistent
> shoplifters/vandals/muggers/car thieves etc
> And it is hardly and great difficulty to flag each record with an expiry
> date.

No, but in the real world, such databases *aren't* designed with any
such flag. Which bites many innocent people every year.

> So upon a criminal coming before the courts for the umpteenth time for
> such offences the court can order that their 'mugshot' be placed on the
> system for a specified length of time. If they stop offending then after
> that time they are removed from the database.

And if the wrong photo gets placed in the file, the innocent person
will have a fight to get it removed. If the database is shared with
*other* areas, they will have to fight in each and every place they
visit. 

And a private citizen can't *afford* that sort of fight. Which is why
such systems are a bad idea. When they screw up, the effects on the
innocent are *way* out of proportion.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:18:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:18:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <20425.011146.9J8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jeff Rowse [mailto:jeffrowse@hotmail.com]
>
>> Reminds me of the system a couple or so years ago 'they' 
>> wanted to trial in 
>> the streets of an English city - the CCTV cameras were linked 
>> to a database 
>> containing mugshots of local criminals and was supposed to 
>> alert the local 
>> police when a 'non-desirable' tried entering the city center 
>> (note; in 
>> England, shopping centers/malls can exclude people for 
>> illegal behviour, so 
>> this is not considered a violation of their rights).
>> Unfortunately, it was 'advertised' as having a 4% failure rate...
>> If we give it a 50-50 split on errors, that means a city of 
>> 10,000 bodies 
>> would have 200 innocents a day arrested, and 200 criminals 
>> free to go about 
>> their crimes...
>
> Ummm, not quite...
>
> As the database only contains the 'mugshots' of persons banned/convicted
> etc, then the failure rate of 4% means that for every 100 persons
> flagged for police attention, 96 will be criminals and either arrested
> or escorted from the area, and the remaining 4 will be innocent
> bystanders, whom upon polite questioning by a police officer to confirm
> their identity will be free to go about their business.

No. 

The 4% error rate means that 4% of the people scanned will be
misidentied. So 4% of the people who don't have pictures in the
database would be mistakenly identifed as people in the database AND 4%
of the people scanned who *were* in the database would fail to be
identified.

Thing is, if there are only 100 people in the database, and 10,000
people scanned (and we will assume that the 100 in the database are
part of the total scanned) you get these results:

9,900 people not in database. 
4% false positives = 396

100 people in database
4% false negatives = 4

So, the end results are:

9504 correctly identified as not in database
 396 incorrectly identified as being in database
  96 correctly identified as being in database
   4 incorrectly identified as being in database.

Which means that out of 492 people "tagged", only 96 will be correct
IDs. That means that a bit over *80%* of those tagged will be incorrect
identifications. Which is a *totally* unacceptable error rate.

This is why they *don't* do generalized testing for things like AIDS.
The ratio of infected to uninfected is so *low* that the number of
false positives would *massively* overwhelm the true positives.

And the problem others were talking about is the entirely *independent*
problem of whether or not the folks correctly IDed as being in the
database are actually criminals. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3CC785BE.E6ACFF88@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CC884F5.17674.53C3CD@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 23:27, John Groth wrote:

> One of the things that annoyed me most about Twilight: 2000 (second
> edition) is that, according to the chargen rules, I did not exist. 
> According to T2K (2e), only Military Intelligence officers could perform
> interrogator duties; enlisted MI types were treated as equivalent to
> Support branch (i.e., mechanics and the like).  As an enlisted
> interrogator (MOS 97E4P) who currently has 18+ years of experience in
> the field, I was (understandably, I think) quite put out by this chargen
> rule, especially since very few MI commissioned officers in the US Army
> _ever_ learn how to interrogate prisoners of war.

As I was a grunt when I struck T2K 1e I didn't notice this, though I do 
remember being unimpressed by that on general principles. However T2k 
2e's insistence that military intelligence types take a -1 initiative 
rankled.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <20020424223740.A14385@4dv.net>
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500
Message-ID: <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost>

On 24 Apr 2002 at 22:37, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
> >
> > Try being allergic to cig smoke.
> 
> That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
> <http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.

Yeah, right. Sure it doesn't. From what I've seen over the years just 
about anything is allergic to someone out there.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 04:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 03:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22712@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3CC8870B.29806.5BEAE4@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 9:09, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even farther with image
> intensifiers. Also, you might want not to leave much stuff around, which
> is quite hard if you have to remember collecting everything you smoke.

There's nothing quite like some smoker lighting up at night to give 
your position away. About the only way to hide all the light is to 
smoke in the sleeping bay of a full-overhead protected trench or 
bunker, with a blanket, sack or jecket over the enterance.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir
 we got trouble .
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500 <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> On 24 Apr 2002 at 22:37, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
> > >
> > > Try being allergic to cig smoke.
> >
> > That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
> > <http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.
>
> Yeah, right. Sure it doesn't. From what I've seen over the years just
> about anything is allergic to someone out there.
>

Now Rupert, The American Tobacco Institute has spent a lot of money
proving that cigarettes are good for you and you want us to believe on the
basis of your anecdotal evidence that they could cause someone a problem?
Get real buddy!


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20425.012810.2T3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in
> the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database? It
> is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken as one in 25
> of the members of the database will be misidentified... If there was only
> one picture in the database is there a 4% chance that any given person will
> be identified as it? Or much more likely, if there was only one person in
> the database 4% of the time the system would report 'no match' when
> analysing a picture of that individual.

Sorry, failure rates work *both* ways. There *will* be false matches,
not merely failures to make matches that should have been made.

Properly, they should have given the rates for false positives and for
false negatives. But the folks marketing such things don't want to
mention false positives. And without knowing the rates for both, as
well as the ratio of the total population to the number of people in
the database, you can't run numbers on this to properly evaluate it.

In another post, I did a rough evaluation with 4% error rate for both
positives and negatives. Note that for any given false positive rate,
the *number* of errors grows in direct proprtion to the size of the
population. If you scan twice as many people you get twice as many
errors. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:18:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:18:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <3CC7743B.26719.1EA397@localhost>
Message-ID: <20425.013434.5F0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 24 Apr 2002 at 10:58, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
>> Tod Glenn says
>> <snip about the "smart" camera system>
>> 
>> The error rate they publish is based on the idea that all of 
>> the data in the database is correct and up to date.  
>> Government systems are notoriously worse at keeping data up 
>> to date when compared to large private corporations, who have 
>> serious problems of their own.  If there's no monetary 
>> incentive to keep the data accurate and up to date, it won't 
>> be.
>
> How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
> least keep the false positive rate down.

You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
have to be present at the trial *there*. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:21:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:21:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Question on planetary orbits.
In-Reply-To: <20020425074906.B11272@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20425.015908.4k0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
>> of the period.
>
> Oops, it's the other way around :)
>
> (2 pi / T)^2 = G M / R^3
> so T^2 = k R^3, where k = (2 pi)^2 / (G M)

Tell the folks who printed the stronomy Quick Study reference card I
checked it on!

Aha! The text has it right, the formula below it has it wrong!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:24:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:24:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250924020.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20425.013633.5Q9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?

That's better than the cartoon I have where an obvious Soviet guard
type is asking "Why are your papers in order?"

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:27:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:27:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Question on planetary orbits
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424234029.00ab4ef0@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <20425.033231.2x1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >Kepler's third law is that the square of the distance equals the cube
>  >of the period.
>
> Keplers third law is that the square of the period is proportional to the 
> cube of the distance.

Blasted reference I was using had the law right in the text, but had
the exponents swapped in the formula. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:30:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:30:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  All of the above is interesting. But not my main Traveller theme part.
> For example <composing a reply to a prior msg with this topic> The entire
> premise above is dealing with the measurements of the micro$haft style of
> disks and formatting.

Actually, it's the method ised by floppy *and* hard disk controllers
for just about everything. GCR and all the rest of that was only used
by Apple and Commodore. Everybody else used the single chip FDC chips
that came out starting in 1977. And the similarly integrated HDC setups
that came out later.

The "low level" formatting is standard across just about all the
computer industry. The only variables are things like sector size and
number of sectors per track.

Dig up a spec sheet for any floppy controller chip and you'll see the
same info as to the things that can be varied. 

MS is using a format set by IBM and the "low level" stuff goes backk to
the original *mainframe* floppy disks (and hard drives) developed in
the 1960s.

I've got the manuals for an old mainframe hard drive, and the
controller level formatting options aren't that different from what
modern hard and floppy drives use. 

The Commodore setup really *is* an oddbal and *very* minority format.

> i use Commodore exclusively. First we measure in
> blocks 4 = 1kb. The single sided drives read thes disk at 664 C= blocks.

No, at the *hardware* level, it's still sectors and tracks. You just
have thungs like variable numbers of sectors per track, based on how
close to the cebter of the disk you are (I went into a lot of this with
a friend who had a VIC 20 and later a C-64 when we were trying to see
if we could reas each other's disks somehow).

Those "blocks" are equivalent to "clusters" on PC drives. And they are
a product of the OS, not the hardware. If you check into the low level
details, you'll find that the blocks are part of the *logical*
formatting (how the OS groups stuff and addresses it) not the
*physical* formatting (which is the sectors and tracks, encoded upon
the media). 

*If* Commodore had used FM and MFM encoding on the disks, rather than
GCR (basicly a different way of modulating the signal that represents
the bitstream on the media), then all it'd take to read a C-64 disk on
a PC would be some fancy software. 

As it is, it's like trying to read a Beta tape on a VHS machine. Even
if you feed the tape past the heads, the signal format is wrong. The
data encoded on the tapes is the *same* (NTSC video). 

But once you extract the bitstream, the floppy controller references
that as sectors and tracks. On a PC, we have access at that level. With
a 1541, the CPU in the 1541 has access at that level. You only have
access at the OS level (blocks, files etc) unless you can change the
code being run by the CPU in the drive.

>  Now then all tat said. We have talked about some converting things. using
> what I know which is a samttering of the techy stuff for the Commodore
> world. i have tools that allow translation on my system. Allowing me to
> translate from Pet to Ascii and back again. So that part is covered for
> text. I also have tools that allow scaling of JPGs and GIFs. These at
> videocam. That allow for my screen size. I have tools to pas along to the
> windoze and Amiga users that allow the text translation for my preferred
> DT <Desk Top> system Geos. Even the ability to make .D64 image files for
> the emulator users.

Again, you are conflating a bunch of *independent* things:

1. media type/encoding (ie what the data is stored on and how the bits
   are encoded onto the media)
   
   Examples: holes punched in paper tape, holes punched in any of
   several types of punch card, bits coded onto magnetic tape in any of
   several ways, bits on floppy disks in GCR/FM/MFM. Bits on Had drives
   in FM/MFM/RLL/ERLL

2. Media formatting (tracks, sectors, etc)

   Examples: tapes formatted with Unit, record, block, etc marks
   Disks formatted into sectors, tracks, cylinders

3. OS formatting (files, directories, etc)

   Examples: different directory & file structures in TRS-DOS (at least
   5 versions I know of that are incompatible with each other), MS-DOS,
   Mac, Apple II (at least 2 OSes), CP/M, Unix, etc

4. File formatting (how the bits and bytes inside the file represent
   the data)

   Examples: Wordstar, WordPerfect, Scripsit, MS Word, PerfectWriter
   All word processors, all encoding text with formatting
   instructions, all available for MS-DOS, all using different
   formats.

5. output device & formatting (how the data is presented to the user)
   
   Examples: fixed pitch printer, no backspace/overstrike.
             fixed pitch printer with backspace/overstrike
             proportional font printer
             loadable font printer
             "graphics" printer (ie anything that prints stuff as a
               "image fed by the computer)
   All hardcopy output devices, with different sorts of inputs and
   different output capabilities.
    

I'm saying that for the most part level 4 will be uniform. Everybody
will use or be able to translate to/from the standard Imperial file
formats.

The limits will be most a case of not being able to handle some formats
because your equipment isn't up to it.

Probably levels of difficult:

fixed pitch text in local alphabet
fixed pitch text in multiple alphabets
formatted text in local alphabets
formatted text in multiple alphabets

Still images (ie low res pixel graphics)
still images (fax/wirephoto)
still images (photos)

Audio (with various levels as bit rate and mono/stereo are added)

Video

Holo

>  OK what I am looking at on this topic is the same type of things in tols
> and utils for converting different standards and platforms in the 3I.
> Based and projecting from the exisitng styles we have now. Putting that
> into the CT game.

Depends on whether you are receiving a *signal* or media. 

If you are receiving media, you need a reader and one or more levels of
concerter to get the files out. Once you have the files, it's fairly
simple to have software take it the rest of the way. 

My list above dealt (mostly) with media.

If you have a signal, the levels are similar but different. 

Look up the OSI model for one way to break that sort of thing down.

The important thing to realize is that at *any* level of a properly
designed system, you can swap the stuff that deal with that level out
and replace it with something that handles it differently, and not
affect things much.

In fact, the C-64 is better suited demonstrating that than most
systems. Compare the way you read/write from a tape, a 1541, the
IEEE-488 based Commodore business systems drive that uses the same
floppies and format as the 1541, a hard drive etc.

As I recall, for reading/writing a *file* all you'd change is the unit
number or some such. 

So the problems faced by the players be a matter of which levels things
are incompatible at.

Wrong media (cassette instead of disk? Wrong size disk?)

Wrong encoding (GCR vs MFM or the like. Or 5 channel versus 8-channel
paper tape)

Wrong formatting (wrong size sectors? Wrong number of sector, tracks,
whatever) 

Wrong OS? (A PC formatted floppy written by OS/2 isn't much use with Windows)

Wrong file format (It's in Wordstar, they have wordPerfect)

Or a combination of the above if you are really feeling evil.

And to be *supremely* evil, when the get the data, it may be in the
wrong language. Or be a picture taken by a species that has a different
spectral sensitivity (ie, we see red to vilet. They see short IR to
Blue. Or Orange to near UV) 

That last is fun if you have a decent graphics program or if you
understand how BMPs or other non-compressed image formats store data.
Removing the color(s) they don't see is fairly easy if you are a
programmer geek. Shifting the colors is a bit harder. *Adding* the
color they don't see is harder.

Ever try recognizing something from a color IR picture? <eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 05:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 25 04:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
References: <20020425052154.B00C227A9C@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>

Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
very, very large capital ships?

I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
spinal mounts.

I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
sharing.

By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

Thanks, all.

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir  we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC898A7.17942.A0B903@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 7:05, alan spik wrote:

> Now Rupert, The American Tobacco Institute has spent a lot of money
> proving that cigarettes are good for you and you want us to believe on the
> basis of your anecdotal evidence that they could cause someone a problem?
> Get real buddy!

Rule #1: Follow the money.

I have no monetary interest in getting people to stop smoking, they 
have lots of interest in getting as many people smoking as much tobacco 
as possible.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:03:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:03:58 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC898A8.8362.A0BA58@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 6:36, David Smart wrote:

> Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> very, very large capital ships?
> 
> I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
> spinal mounts.
> 
> I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
> sharing.
> 
> By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
> TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

Hmm. Wasn't there an Auri-Tech research vessel around that would fill 
the bill?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:07:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:07:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <20425.013434.5F0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <3CC7743B.26719.1EA397@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC898A7.24874.A0B7D7@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 1:34, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
> > least keep the false positive rate down.
> 
> You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
> entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
> take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
> have to be present at the trial *there*. 

Well sue the originating organisation. Then sue 'em for libel in that 
they spread false infermation about you.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
Message-ID: <F1783GykBbKP7Ie8tlM000034bd@hotmail.com>

From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>

     "heres the second in my series of conversions"


Mr. Cat,

     Bravo, sir!  Well done!  Your conversions have been superb, hence the 
near total lack of comment about them on the List!
     Please enjoy the TML's Black Hole of Quality.  Could you drop the rest 
of us a postcard and let us know what that place is like?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S.  Would any of the more artistically inclined members of the List care 
to design a "TML Black Hole of Quality" medallion?  I thinking something the 
size of a gaudy soup plate on a crepe paper ribbon.  Hmmm, perhaps a simple 
lapel pin would be more appropriate...


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 06:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (silverberg)
Date: Thu Apr 25 05:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Spacedoc v1.2 or later
Message-ID: <000801c1ec58$66b74ad0$720b1ed4@tyrell001>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I am looking for the above program or similar. Unfortunately all the
links I have found so far are obsolete. Can any one help me find this
program?
 
Many Thanks
 
Regards
 
Silverberg
 
 

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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font-family:Arial'>I am looking for the above program or similar. =
Unfortunately
all the links I have found so far are obsolete. Can any one help me find =
this
program?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <F1783GykBbKP7Ie8tlM000034bd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEHCDMAA.tml@downport.com>

The new diet craze! Put on a black hole lapel pin and everyone will think
you're eating when you aren't getting a single bite!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade

> P.S.  Would any of the more artistically inclined members of the
> List care
> to design a "TML Black Hole of Quality" medallion?  I thinking
> something the
> size of a gaudy soup plate on a crepe paper ribbon.  Hmmm,
> perhaps a simple
> lapel pin would be more appropriate...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22715@USCHM203>

>I was at Benning when that happened. The common reaction was "who cares" 
>and the clubs on VD Drive never bothered to check IDs.

You were lucky. The Marines were a lot stricter. And at about the same time
they pretty much tore down Court Street, which was where all the good (or
bad if you were an MP)bars were.
So you had about 10,000 or young Marines who were able to enjoy a few beers
one weekend, and not able to the next. Fights and disciplinary violations
actually increased.
I agree that there are situations where smoking is a bad idea, but a blanket
ban on smoking would do more harm than good, in my opinion. 99% of
servicemen are not going to be in a position where it matters.

>Having addicts in the trenches does not aid 
in the mission.

I don't think jonesing for a cigarette is the same as having a heroin
withdrawal, and aside from VC with good noses in very specific
circumstances, I fail to see how smoking has any effect on combat
effectiveness. Yes, it reduces lung capacity and endurance, but those 50% +
smokers in my unit could still run six miles the same as the non-smokers.
Obviously, common sense would preclude smoking on opreations where stealth
was required. There doesn't need to be any sweeping edict affecting the
entire Army.

For the record, there were periods in the field where no smoking was allowed
for weeks. There was grumbling, but no one went into a disabling nicotine
fit.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <B8ED52C0.5887D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/25/02 1:56 AM, Frank Pitt at frankie@mundens.gen.nz wrote:

> 
> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.

Austrian Corporal. And I would call it a coup when you are elected to ofice
by popular vote.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F235nUTBnxARhnHcWhl00004133@hotmail.com>

>From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>
>Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
>very, very large capital ships?

Half a dozen or so and more hiding in my backpocket (i.e. on my HD).

>I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
>spinal mounts.

Is a 406 Gj Meson gun fitted to a 900'000 dt Dreadnough enough? If not I 
have a 2 Mdt design on my hardrive (but that is streching things a bit).

>I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
>sharing.

All you can eat at Dimash Starships:
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/starships.html

>By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
>TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

Spreadsheets availible at request for most designs.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <019901c1ec5f$4ae870c0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 4:56 AM
Subject: RE: [TML] RE: Bayonets


> Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> > Interesting. All my reading says that most coups are
> > by officers in the Captain to Colonel range, with
> > the next group being those run by Generals, though
> > these are quite often one General  replacing another
> > and so are almost legitemate in some places. I'll have
> > to do more reading, methinks.
>
> You will, a coup in one of the West Inddian isles (Grenada?) was
> led by a Corporal, IIRC
>
> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.
>
> Frankie
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:46:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:46:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F251utSgcOrBLSAQV6u0000a9dd@hotmail.com>

I don't know if this message showed up correctly so I'm reposting it (Davied 
Smart didn't see it on the digest). My applogies if you have allready seen 
it.

------------

>Mr. Holmstrm,
>
>I'm a member of the TML and I recently ran across an old email you sent out 
>proposing rules for the building of chem-det lasers using Bruce Macintosh's 
>"MCS" starship combat rules.
>
>If you're still playing Traveller and it isn't an imposition on you, could 
>you tell me if you ever finished a final draft of your rules?

Ohh, I'm still playing Traveller/reading the TML. The short answer to
your question is "sort of yes" but the long answer is more interesting.
I tried to pick apart the NukeDet tables in FFS and the warhead table
in MCS and reverse engineer the Frag and ChemDet warheads using MCS and
FFS. The major problems are that the ChemDet and Frag warheads mentioned in 
MCS might be handwaved and lacks stats (mass/vol/price). More details on 
NukeDets in FFS1/2 would also help. The discussion below assumes that the 
reader knows FFS and MCS. If I'm unclear somewhere just yell.

Most of my argument uses this table from MCS:
>Type                    Pen:Damage     Defence Nuclear Det-Laser            
>                                            TL15    19:13           -7
>                TL13    18:12           -7
>                TL10    17:11           -7
>Chemical Det-Laser-13   13:10           -6
>Fragmentation KKMSIM-10 10:14           -3

If the ChemDets are supposed to have a PEN calue of 13 this means that it 
must have a FFS2 DV of at least 21 (assuming PEN = 10*DAM => MCS DAM 7). 
This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking about a 
X-ray laser to it needs to be at least TL13. MCS states that NukeDets has a 
penetration value of 20 times the FFS2 damage value (instead of the usual 
PEN = 10xDAM). Further it states that the warhead (as a whole) has twice the 
damage compared to the listed damage (per beam) in FFS2. This can be used to 
determine the yield of the NukeDets used in the MCS missile table. Note that 
all the warheads mass around 500 kg.

TL     Yield    Damage  Wt       Vol
10     100 kt    80     540 kg   270 l
13     200 kt    94     500 kg   250 l
15     500 kt   113     500 kg   250 l

From the PD modifiers in MCS I drew the conclusion that ChemDets detonate 
closer to their target than DetNukes and that Frags detonates even closer. 
At shorter distances the missile will be easier to hit but this works both 
ways. Every -1 on defence makes the missile twice as hard to hit (based on 
PD RoF modifiers).

Warhead      Eff.
NukeDet       1
ChemDet       2
Frag         16

To bring the damage of the ChemDet warhead up to DAM 10 we need to hit the 
target 3 times (compared with 2 for NukeDets)using 40Mj laser pulses. Since 
the ChemDet detonates at a more efficient distance we only have to use 67% 
as many lasing rods as on a NukeDet.

Here is where we run out of information. How many lasing rods are there in a 
NukeDet? Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow 
up) or something more powerful (that does)? Can a lasing rod (as used in 
NukeDets) also be used with chemicals? What is the cost/weight/volume of the 
lasing rod and tracking telescope?


There are two ways to handle this.

1. Assume that all warheads in the MCS missile list are 500 kg/250 l. The 
cost of the ChemDet warhead is anybody's guess but say 100 kCr. The ChemDet 
with PEN13 and DAM10 will represent the baseline warhead and can be modified 
as follows.

Modify weight and volume based on Tech Level.

TL  Wt and Vol mod
13   1.00
16   0.67

By changing the power and number of the lasing rods different warheads can 
be constructed. Change the PEN and DAM values and then apply the weight, 
volume and price modifiers. Each extra point can be added to either DAM or 
PEN but not to both.  Points can also be transferred (e.g. PEN+1/DAM-1) at 
no cost.

Bonus*   Wt, Vol and Price mod
+1          1.5  (1.46)
+2          2.0  (2.15)
+3          3.0  (3.16)
+4          4.5  (4.65)
+5          7.0  (6.81)
+6         10.0  (10.0)
For negative modifiers divide instead.

Examples

A TL11 ChemDet warhead (-2).
Pen = 13 - 1 = 12.
Dam = 10 - 1 = 9.
Wt = 500 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 500 kg.
Vol = 250 * 2.0 / 2.0 = 250 l.
Price = 100 / 2.0 = 50 kCr.

A TL13 Heavy ChemDet Warhead (+3).
Pen = 13 + 2 = 15.
Dam = 10 + 1 = 11.
Wt = 500 * 3.0 = 1500 kg.
Vol = 500 * 3.0 = 750 l.
Price = 100 * 3.0 = 300 kCr.


A +3 ChemDet warhead and a ring of imperial intervention is all a traveller 
needs. ;) The modifiers are based on the 6*log10 damage scale of MCS and the 
Chemical Lasing Cartridge efficiency table. I believe this gives reasonable 
numbers but one might want to differentiate the TL table a bit.


2. Running the numbers of a 500 kg warhead using standard components.

A 40Mj 10 cm X-ray focal array with 10'000 km effective range at TL13.
Focal area  : 0.007854 m2.
Focal vol   : 0.000314 m3.
Focal mass  : 0.314 kg.
Focal price : 31.4 Cr.

Input energy  : 61.54 Mj.
Cartridge wt  : 30.77 kg.
Cartridge vol : 3.127 l.
I can't find the listed price for CLC cartridges in FFS2 so I use FFS1 
figures instead.
Cartridge price : 1850 Cr.

The weight limitation allows 16 cartridges to be fitted.
Warhead Wt    : 497.3 kg.
Warhead Vol   : 55.06 l.
Warhead Price : 30 kCr.

The result a very cheap and compact warhead but I doubt that 16 cartridges 
are enough since a NukeDet probably has more than 24 lasing rods. Building 
the thing with TL15 will allow for 21 cartridges and TL16 gets us 35 (mainly 
due to better cartridges). To be completely legal the warhead would need a 
beampointer which adds ~1000 kg at TL13. With a beampointer it is hard to 
see how any of the beams could miss at all.

Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a lot. 
TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical Lasing 
Cartridge? Double this?


Ideas/Comments are welcomed.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>

From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>

     "I've done this with a Vargar steward on my groups ship. Keeping her in 
fresh meat is a real challenge at points. Especially since she insists on 
sharing it all with the passengers and crew."


Sir,

     Nice touch!  A steward with odd culinary ideas sounds great.  Have the 
PCs loathe the meals she prepares BUT she also lures lots of high passengers 
aboard with the same.  The PCs Beowulf could get a rep for catering to a 
certain type of traveller; they pay well and are just annoying enough to 
make the PCs batty.

     "Hadn't really thought of the ingredient angle.  Thanks Larsen."

     Your very welcome.  Have your PCs set aside a low berth for the Vargr 
steward's "supplies"?  Or rigged up a similar device in the hold or 
engineering?  How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy 
stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other supplies 
and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require PRECISE 
enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the constant risk 
of possible allergens from all those plants wafting their way through the 
ventilation system...


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 07:57:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Apr 25 06:57:05 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
Message-ID: <F182WZbQLbzjADMBLxt00008700@hotmail.com>

John Groth <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
> > On 23 Apr 2002 at 13:04, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >
> > > The other thing that bothered me about the more recent ST
> > > series is that everyone is an officer.
> >
> > That didn't bother me in the slightest, seeing as there were often
> > engineering officers doing what we'd have ratings employed at.
> > Obviously the later Star Trek period saw a lot of 'job inflation' in
> > the Federation. Probably some bureaucrat thought it'd help morale or
> > recruitment if everyone in Starfleet got to be an officer.
>
>I suspect that the rank inflation of the ST universe (and many other
>fictional universes) has more to do with the observation that Robert
>Heinlein (adroitly bringing the thread back to its title) made in _Job:
>A Comedy of Justice_ that civilians automatically seem to equate
>themselves with officers, regardless of the actual position the
>civilians in question hold in the employment and/or social hierarchy.

This may not be accurate, as I'm drawing on secondary sources
(FASA's Star Trek RPG) for this...

Starfleet has a whole rack of Enlisted and NCO ranks, and
people of these ranks make up the majority of the organization.

We, the viewers, keep seeing special and unusual cases.
For example, _USS Enterprise_ (from the old series) was one
of only twelve Constitution-class cruisers, and such ships
were the most prestigious ships in Galaxy Exploration Command,
which was the most prestigious division of Starfleet.  The
crews of these special ships were officers from Captain
down to bottle-washer.

Lesser ships in the Galaxy Exploration Command would have
some enlisted personnel in their crews, and ships in the less
prestigious commands (such as the Merchant Marine or
Colonial Operations Command) would have a more traditional
enlisted to officers ratio.

As I said, this is material from a secondary source, so it
may be inaccurate.  It may even be a whole-cloth creation
of the game designers, rather than a report of the actual
organization of Gene Rodenberry's Starfleet.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
Message-ID: <F24sxyWSBuhOF3Gc76o0000388d@hotmail.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

     "I once ran an Aftermath campaign where the players were kept busy 
looking for ingredients for an omelet by a deranged gourmand in return for 
some penicillin."


Mr. Glenn,

     Ooooh, nasty, I like it!
     As a GM, I loved the "we need a nail" trick; getting the PCs to WANT to 
dance to your tune through the use of scavenger hunts.  I never really ran 
any high powered campaigns, so my PCs never needed a lefthanded frommitz 
board in order to turn back the Zho invasion.  Instead, they chased about 
after will o' the wisps as a way of making, or saving, some fast credits.
     A multi-jump high passenger, and her entourage, who will require a 
glass of tomato juice, a nobble steak, 90% humidity in her stateroom, a 
large panetella, and several rounds of whist EACH AND EVERY day while aboard 
really whipsaws the PCs.  They'll slaver over the credits they could make 
and chase around like goofs after the incidentals they'll need to bring it 
off.  That gives the GM oodles of ways to introduce new plots, new NPCs, new 
obstacles, new everything into the campaign.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:05:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:05:06 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <B8ED52C0.5887D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8ED5AC3.58886%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/25/02 6:29 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> on 4/25/02 1:56 AM, Frank Pitt at frankie@mundens.gen.nz wrote:
> 
>> 
>> And then there's that little Bavarian Corporal with funny black
>> moustache who never understood what the term "Aryan" meant.
> 
> Austrian Corporal. And I would call it a coup when you are elected to ofice
> by popular vote.
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.


Sorry.  I WOULDN'T call is a coup....
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <20020425052152.7692927A9A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004901c1ec65$0d704c80$7f5d8690@computer>

> From: Lord Ronin from Q-Link 
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:
> > Does he say, `your papers, please' in an East European accent?
> 
>  The incorrect response is "Sorry Man I've only got a pipe."

<chuckle>

A _very_ incorrect response.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 08:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 25 07:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . . yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>; from babyduck@mindspring.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 07:05:51AM -0400
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost> <3CC7E30E.D99EFCFC@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020425084838.A15956@4dv.net>

On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 07:05:51AM -0400, alan spik wrote:
> 
> Now Rupert, The American Tobacco Institute has spent a lot of money
> proving that cigarettes are good for you and you want us to believe on the
> basis of your anecdotal evidence that they could cause someone a problem?
> Get real buddy!

The site I referenced was the usual medical smoking is EEEVIL sort of
claptrap, but even it admitted that smoke is not an allergen, but can
exacerbate _other_ allergies, and asthma.  As I noted.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink
I feel ashamed.  Then I look into the glass and think about
the workers in the brewery and all of their hopes and
dreams.  If I didn't drink this beer, they might be out of
work and their dreams would be shattered.  Then I say to
myself, `It is better that I drink this beer and let their
dreams come true than be selfish and worry about my liver.'
                                             --Unattributed

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 09:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr 25 08:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Judder-drive?
Message-ID: <DAV22gADGFXpWvFmaWn0000574a@hotmail.com>

Did this one die on the vine?

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns9999242

19:00 06 December 00

Full text follows:


A juddering magnet has inspired a scientist at the US Department of Energy
to investigate a bizarre new way of propelling a spacecraft.

The idea for a "judder-drive" struck David Goodwin when he noticed that
powerful, cryogenically-cooled superconducting magnets often jolt in one
direction for a centimetre or two when you first turn them on.

"If you have something metal in the magnetic field as it is forming, you see
the magnet physically shift," says Goodwin, who works at the Office of High
Energy and Nuclear Physics in Germantown, Maryland.

Superconducting magnets are cooled to such a low temperature that they have
no electrical resistance. Goodwin's magnets were made by taking
superconducting wires of niobium-tin alloy and twisting the strands into a
cable. The cables were then coated with an insulator and wound into a coil.
"The coil's then put into a cylindrical casing called a cryostat that's
filled with liquid helium," says Goodwin. The liquid helium cools the wire
coil to -269 C, when they become superconducting.

Goodwin says the metal objects create the judder effect by inducing a "brief
asymmetry in the magnetic field" as it is set up when the magnet is turned
on. This initial disturbance of the magnetic field, he says, creates a
repulsive force on the magnet and pushes it away.

But the force produced in one jolt is very low, Goodwin says, so you would
need to turn the magnet on and off with ultrafast switches, making a fast
stream of jolts. "We've got switches now that can work at high voltages at
400,000 times a second," he says. "If you could use one of these switches to
rapidly switch the magnet on and off, you might get some propulsion out of
it."

A colleague of Goodwin's at Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York is
now modelling the magnetic field of superconducting magnets to work out how
best to arrange a metallic disc in the magnetic field to produce the biggest
jolt. But Goodwin admits the judder drive might be going nowhere fast. "It's
very speculative. We don't know if it'll work," he says.

Marc Millis, who heads NASA's breakthrough propulsion physics project at the
NASA Glenn Research Center at Lewis Field in Cleveland, Ohio, has invited
Goodwin to present his idea at a propulsion conference in July next year.

The crucial thing, says Millis, is whether Goodwin's magnet would produce
any net motion at all - it might just sit there and vibrate. "It's a
definite possibility that any forces arising from Goodwin's concept will
only act within the components of the device itself, resulting in no net
force," he says. "There are a lot of unresolved physics issues to address."

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net
The shooting of the steers was of extremely limited value.   ...(T)he steers
were incapable of understanding what was happening and articulating their
concerns... - Handgun Stopping Power by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <3CC82CB1.6050208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Matthew Bond wrote:

> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in
> the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database? It
> is much more likely that the stated failure rate is to be taken as one in 25
> of the members of the database will be misidentified... 

Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here, 
comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.

You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via 
your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of 
false positives and false negatives.

That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously, 
whihc means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched 
erroneously.

If they seriously start arresting, harassing, and otherwise 
incoveniencing people based on this system those shop owners are going 
to lose a lot more business that they would have ever lost by letting 
known shoplifters into their stores.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . .
 yessir we got trouble .
In-Reply-To: <20020424223740.A14385@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204250919130.24595-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500, Thomas Vickers wrote:
> >
> > Try being allergic to cig smoke.
> 
> That'd be a trick, as tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens.  See
> <http://web.knoxnews.com/health/allergy/general/smoke.shtml>.
> 
> Perhaps you're slightly asthmatic, or have other allergies which smoke
> in generl triggers?

Tobacco smoke doesn't contain allergens, but many of the things that
tobacco is treated with are allergenic.

I used to live in Kentucky where much of the world's tobacco is grown.  I
would become very ill every year during the spraying season.  You are
smoking, when you smoke cigarettes, all of the pesticides and other
chemicals.  I am not allergic to tobacco, but I have allergic reactions
that are very real to most cigarettes and an even more severe reaction to
the stale ashes of cigarettes.

Robert, you smoke good tobacco. I believe you smoke cigars or a pipe.  I
assure you cigarettes are very different.

Even the cloves I like to smoke once or twice a year cause me some
problems, which is probably why I never got addicted-- I couldn't ever
smoke more than one or two and couldn't do it multiple days in a row.

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:27:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:27:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . .
 yessir we got trouble .
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAEEIBDAAA.redroach@pobox.com>; from redroach@pobox.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 06:44:32PM -0500 <3CC88545.1085.54FC54@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CC82DFF.50605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Yeah, right. Sure it doesn't. From what I've seen over the years just 
> about anything is allergic to someone out there.
> 

<cringe> People are 'allergic', things are 'allergenic' to people...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
In-Reply-To: <019901c1ec5f$4ae870c0$1f9e15ac@warrior>
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEFCHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020425093636.00a0fec0@mindspring.com>

At 09:44 AM 4/25/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
>wars

And 0 for 2 in finishing them...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:40:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:40:11 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019752592.311.ajackson@ping>

David Smart writes:
> Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> very, very large capital ships?

Most of the designs I've seen floating about have been TL 15, I'm not sure you
can build a huge TL 12 capital ship.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:44:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:44:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: "Smokin' tailor-mades like nick-o-teen fiends . . .yessir we got trouble .
Message-ID: <200204251643.EZD03454@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
><cringe> People are 'allergic', things are 'allergenic' to 
>people...
>

More to the point - it is possible for a substance to be an 
irritant, with severe effects, and yet provoke no allergic 
response.  Many of the gaseous constituents of tobacco smoke 
probably fall into this category.

Also, some chemicals can make you more sensitive to other 
irritants and allergens.  Toluene di-isocyanate, a popular 
industrial solvent, is famous for turning people into 
permanent asthmatics.

The person at the most risk, however, is probably the 
smoker.  Second hand smoke carries risks, and is an irritant, 
to be sure.  But of all of the things in the cigarette, two 
stand out.  Carbon monoxide is inhaled in sufficient 
quantities to bind hemoglobin for long periods of time.  And 
nicotine is a poison.  Nicotine, as purchased from a plant 
care store, or concentrated from tobacco, is a lethal agent 
if spilled on the skin.  And the smoker is breathing both of 
these agents in concentrations far higher than the person 
receiving the smoke second-hand.

In real life, it's not a healthy thing to be doing to 
yourself, or the others around you.  But, like other risk-
taking that we engage in, it's something that a fair number 
of people accept.  It is far more dangerous to drive your car 
to work everyday.  It is far more dangerous to allow yourself 
to become overweight, or to constantly eat fatty foods.

I am polite enough not to smoke in the presence of people I 
know will be irritated by it.  I was able to stop smoking at 
will in the field, and it never affected my ability to run or 
yomp.  

ObTrav:  IMTU It's a fantastic world of the future - they 
call it tobacco, but centuries of genetic engineering and 
chemistry have produced a product which is largely harmless 
(still working on that carbon monoxide).  Some people might 
find it an irritating habit.  And tactically, it's still a 
bad idea.  Other worlds have come up with other things to 
smoke as well.

As evidenced by "stuff on a stick" at the Regina starport, 
nothing at all has been done about fatty foods.  There are 
plenty of nachos, ding dongs, and powdered sugar donuts in 
the Far Future.
________________
There's a man who leads a life of danger
To everyone he meets he stays a stranger
With every move he makes another chance he takes 
Odds are he won't live to see tomorrow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 10:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Thu Apr 25 09:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <OF5C76E27C.BD421F78-ON85256BA6.005BCA1B@pheaa.org>






>>Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
>>wars

>And 0 for 2 in finishing them...

I don't believe Germany actually started WWI. if i remember correctly a
Serbian shot the Arch Duke this got Austria into a war then because of the
way the treaties were set up back then it was a domino effect pulling in
the other countries.

However by the time the war was over Germany had been blamed for WWI.
because they where blamed they were forced to pay reparations and
militarily eviscerated. this cause a lot of Germans to lose pride in being
German. Hitler used this to his advantage. he gave them pride again and so
they followed him.

of course this is a very very small aspect of the whole thing that i don't
have time to go into right now. i love WW2 history and took several courses
on it in both high school and college. and if given the chance could talk
about it all day 8P

anyway

Hasta

Bill









From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 11:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr 25 10:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>

From another list.  Not confirmed by me.

< Begin quote >
A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a plan
to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," Williams said in
a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, Ala.,
resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science from
the
University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in business
management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super Market at
Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
< End quote >

Opinions?

ObTrav: How about a planet that imposes a 100% sales tax on off-worlders.
And don't forget departure taxes...

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 11:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 10:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <200204251751.g3PHpXP22829@premier1.premier.net>

> David Smart writes:
> > Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> > very, very large capital ships?
> 
> Most of the designs I've seen floating about have been TL 15, I'm not sure you
> can build a huge TL 12 capital ship.

The largest TL-12 warship I designed is the 160,000 dton _Agincourt_-class.  
Given that Doug Berry's _Coronation_-class (which was used in butchered form in 
_Imperial Squadrons_) was 90,000 dtons, I would consider _Agincourt_ as 
probably a Late M:0 design.

Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my designs for 
_Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).  Note that all three 
of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry NPAW spinal mounts; I've never 
been a big fan of meson guns.  Besides, there are enough other designers who 
_are_ fond of meson guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that 
ecological niche.

I can repost any or all of these designs when I get home this
evening.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>




<snip>
< Begin quote >
A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
plan
to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
</snip>
<snip>
Opinions?
</snip>

Well if it is true then it makes me ashamed to be from Alabama. however
this guy being from Huntsville wanting to bolster NASA money is not
surprising. Huntsville is a huge NASA area. lot of research goes on there.

this is assuming this is true.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:05:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:05:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Bayonets
Message-ID: <200204251804.g3PI4bP24553@premier1.premier.net>

 
> >>Austrian Sir... yes, they are two for two when It comes to starting world
> >>wars
> 
> >And 0 for 2 in finishing them...
> 
> I don't believe Germany actually started WWI. if i remember correctly a
> Serbian shot the Arch Duke this got Austria into a war then because of the
> way the treaties were set up back then it was a domino effect pulling in
> the other countries.

And that was the point.  Austria-Hungary used Archduke Dul^h^h^h Ferdinand's 
assassination as a pretext to destroy Serbia, thus kicking off WWI.  Then, an 
_Austrian_ corporal led Germany into beginning WWII.

<<snip>>

ObTrav:  A third Alternate Imperium (along with the GTU and Mr. Whipsnade's 
Wounded Colossus) could begin with the same event (Dulinor's death) as the 
GTU.  However, in the Guns of August TU, Dulinor's assassins have links to an 
extra-Imperial power [EIP] (your choice) [my suggestion would be a polity in 
the Vargr Extents (the closest thing to the Balkans in the TU, IMHO)].  The 3I 
decides to use this as a _casus belli_ to destroy said EIP.  Unfortunately, 
other EIPs feel threatened by the upsetting of the balance of power and declare 
war on the 3I.  Still other EIPs then ally with the 3I, thus kicking off a 
general
war.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:09:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:09:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>; from texasredshift@hotmail.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:42:03PM -0500
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020425120658.A16347@4dv.net>

As ideas go, it's really not all that bad.  1% is a bit steep, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd' - Ian Lamb, age 3.5

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:13:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:13:09 2002
Subject: [TML] whoops, heres the ship
Message-ID: <3CC800B8.19293.16BC72@localhost>

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--Message-Boundary-3736--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:16:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:16:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
Message-ID: <3CC80086.8268.15FA7B@localhost>

ok, heres something a little less subtle

its a conversion of the old FASA design, which replaces the 50 ton missile bay with 2 
triple salvo missile racks, which trade rate of fire for magazine capacity, but allow the 
chameleon to throw 60 missile salvoes. 

on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles in GT are 
stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? its never made any sense not 
to give them a backup homing capability, and or short range missiles for counter 
missile or anti fighter capabilities?





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:21:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:21:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>

> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
> plan
> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
> to "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"

Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want to help make
those dreams come true.

/Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 19/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:24:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:24:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Texas Redshift wrote:
>>From another list.  Not confirmed by me.

> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," 

Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You 
cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the 
First Amendment, with ample precedent.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:28:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:28:11 2002
Subject: [TML] whoops, heres the ship
In-Reply-To: <3CC800B8.19293.16BC72@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019758681.1367.ajackson@ping>

Aiii!  Think you can convinced your mailer not to base64 encode your html?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>

At 07:13 PM 4/25/02 +0100, Andy Brick wrote:
> > A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
> > plan
> > to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
> > Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> > proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> > space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> > Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
> > to "space,
> > space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
>Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want to help make
>those dreams come true.

Follow it with a 1% tax on art books, art supplies, and the sale of art 
(records, tapes, movie tickets, paintings, etc.) to fund federal art projects.

A 1% tax on school books and other educational material to go the Education 
Department.
etc.,etc., etc.

The 1% tax on porn would go straight to the Clinton Library and Slush Fund....

Ob-trav: Oh any number of a fun ways to part your players from their hard 
(or is that ill) earned credits.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <3CC80086.8268.15FA7B@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019759803.54.ajackson@ping>

shadowcat writes:

 
> on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles in GT
> are  stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? its never
> made any sense not  to give them a backup homing capability, and or short
> range missiles for counter  missile or anti fighter capabilities?

It's an artifact of the design system; sensors with useful combat range wind up
being extremely expensive.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:41:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:41:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net>

At 11:17 AM 4/25/02 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Texas Redshift wrote:
>> From another list.  Not confirmed by me.
>>Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
>>proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
>>space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
>>Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
>>space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
>Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You 
>cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the 
>First Amendment, with ample precedent.

Oh, like funking US Constitution 101 every kept anybody out of office...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020425.114504.-189505.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:56:49 +1200 "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com wrote :
> > Well, I hate to butt in here, but I'm a prime
> > example of the above conversation.
> >
> > I'm disabled as you all know, pulling in roughly
> > $17.5k via S.S. and my disability pension.
> 
> Just to show that "tolerable" is definitely relative:
> 
> However, outside of a few high cost areas lke New York city and
> the Silcon Valley environs, the cost of living in New Zealand is
> not appreciably lower than that in the US (at least according to
> my sister who has recently returned from  the US), so what (you
> seem to be implying) constitutes hardship for you, would be
> considered moderately well to do in New Zealand.
> 
> Of course, I'm sure someone from Russia could point out they
> could live like a king on 17.5K USD p.a.
> <grin>
> 
> Frankie

Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
To rent a 1 bedroom house here in Stockton it's $1,000 a month minimum,
to buy $125,000 minimum. For a resonably nice 2 bedroom place in a nice
area expect to start at $250,000. This is typical throughout all the
major cities in California.

Hardship, yes.

ObTrav...
What hardships are you forcing on your players?
The payment is due on your starship.
Your overdue on annual maintenance.
Your tab at the tavern is growing.
Creditors are knocking at your door.
How do you work your players to make a profit.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Apr 25 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
Message-ID: <F89BOKvHurVEibVCrfX00004d49@hotmail.com>



>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>shadowcat writes:
>>on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles >>in 
>>GT are  stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? >>its 
>>never made any sense not  to give them a backup homing >>capability, and 
>>or short range missiles for counter  missile or anti >>fighter 
>>capabilities?
>
>It's an artifact of the design system; sensors with useful combat >range 
>wind up being extremely expensive.

I'm not a GT gearhead but the missile shouldn't have to have any significant 
range. Something like a 15'000'km sensor should be enough. The missile will 
know exactly where to look (target data over datalink) and will be much 
closer by the time an accurate position is needed.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 13:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 12:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <F89BOKvHurVEibVCrfX00004d49@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019761410.7031.ajackson@ping>

Patrik Holmstr=F6m writes:

> I'm not a GT gearhead but the missile shouldn't have to have any
> significant  range. Something like a 15'000'km sensor should be enough.
> The missile will  know exactly where to look (target data over datalink) =
and
> will be much  closer by the time an accurate position is needed.

The sensor rules in GURPS are heavily broken (as in, off by several orders =
of
magnitude).  A 10,000 mile sensor is not small.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 13:33:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Thu Apr 25 12:33:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Chameleon class Commerce Raider, HG to GT Conversion
In-Reply-To: <3CC80086.8268.15FA7B@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020425153645.00a49e30@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Shadowcat,


>on another note, has anybody explained why the space combat missiles in GT 
>are
>stupid, as in no inertial guidance or homing capabilities? its never made 
>any sense not
>to give them a backup homing capability, and or short range missiles for 
>counter
>missile or anti fighter capabilities?

We created some long range bombing missiles that ran on inertial guidance, 
then went active when they hit their designated activation location.  The 
expected activation "hex" had to be planned for when a ship was within (if 
I recall correctly) 3 hexes of the activation hex.  What was done was to 
remove the warhead entirely - turning the missile into a kinetic kill 
weapon.  The primary purpose of this missile was to use it for long range 
attacks on enemy shipping.  It did require the use of GURPS VEHICLES 
missile guidance rules as opposed to the standard GURPS TRAVELLER 
rules.  The main reason for this missile's creation was to exploit the fact 
that transponders on civilian ships can be sensed out to rather *extreme* 
ranges.  The idea here was to create missiles that simulated what amounts 
to a "submarine" attack on civilian shipping.

                Hal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020329002354.00a2d920@pop.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20425.115724.3V9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Further on the Earth example, Earth is on the Suns 100d limit,


Sol's radius is 7e8 m. Or 700,000 km. So the diameter is 1.4e6 km. 

100 d would be 140e6 km. 1 AU is 150e6 km.

So it *is* pretty darn close. 

If you use the tidal force "rule" it's a *lot* smaller.

But there's no need to jump to the outer system. Unless your TU
requires jumps end at a gravity well.

Just plot your jump to clear the 100d limit of Sol and come out
"above", "below", "ahead" or "behind" Earth. Roughly 140e6 km away.
Call it 1 AU. Of course this is worst case. 

That's a long trip in normal space, but there's so much space that
ships could come out in that trying to intercept them would be a matter
of pure *luck*. And damned unlikely. 

If (as is true most of the time) Earth is closer to one "edge" of the
"shadow cone" of the sun, you'd jump for that area. Which concentrates
the ships some, but not a lot, as the difference in transit time caused
by being even a million km away from the "ideal" emergence point isn't
that great, but it *totally* hoses intercept attempts.

> so unless 
> your approach angle is from a planet that isn't blocked by the sun, you 
> have to jump to an outer system body and come in from there.

Nope. See above.

> Notably, this is seasonal, and so you might have a "pirate" season
> when the jump lanes shift.

Seasonal for a particular "route". 

> Also, I realised that there's nothing to stop the pirate from jamming the 
> victim. The J-point of the mainworld (Earth) is beyond sensor range, so the 
> pirate, if clever can avoid the patrol even knowing they had a raid.

Jamming is the exact *opposite* of stealth. Even if it's mostly
directional. It also doesn't prevent your victim from sending out a
signal, especially if it's going in a direction other then one your
have the jamming aimed.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:13:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:13:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <001601c1d6c5$0248a060$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20425.122531.2a1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Ok, lets say that there is a large habitat in the planetoid belt of the
> system (one of several such large stations), where the refined products from
> mining stations scattered throughout the belt in a 0.4 AU radius are brought
> by Cargo Cutters for transfer to a larger Jump Capable Transport for
> shipping to the Mainworld/Neighbouring systems etc.
>
> If you intercept one of the cutters you can probably arrange for the
> intercept point to be several millions of km from the nearest SDB. That
> should give you a few hours uninterrupted piracy...

Now try *doing* the intercept. 

If you are using limited delta-V rules, then it gets more than a little
difficult. Especially given that the pirate needs to save enough fuel
to make his post jump manuevers, and (in the leave behind two cutters)
enough for the second intercept and the post jump manuevers after that.

The ship being intercepted only needs to have enough fuel left to get
within range of a "tug" from it's destination.

And jumping into the attack with a high velocity can backfire. If you
come out on the wrong side of the target, youe velociity is in the
wrong direction, and you'd have been better off jumping in at rest.

And don't forget the uncertainty in emergence times. That can place you
*millions* of km out of position. After all that target ship is
*moving*. At the 200 km/sec figure someone else used, every *hour* you
are off in your emergence time means the target is 3/4s of a million km
away from the position you were planning on.

> Now if you counter this by having each little mining station serviced by
> Jump capable ships, which will need to be either J2 capable, or sacrifice
> cargo space for extra fuel (unless each little station has ample fuel
> available to refill the ships tanks), then my attack plan becomes one of
> raiding the little mining outposts and stealing mining equipment, computers,
> and anything else that can be plundered in a few hours (or maybe even days)
> before the nearest SDB can arrive... or does every little mining out post
> have a few SDB's permanently assigned to its defence? Remember, for every
> SDB on its active duty station there are 2 or 3 others in transit or
> undergoing maintenance.

If mining stations get raided regularly, they are apt to be armed. And
miners in asteroid belts will tend to have some pretty powerful lasers
for mining purposes anyway. And mass drivers for tossing low value
cargoes around the system. Nobody is going to bother hijacking a few
hundred tons of iron. But a mass driver that can toss that into an
orbit where it can be picked up by a processing plant or a planet can
toss a ton of "pebbles" at you like the shotgun from hell.

> After all, you can jump to within a thousand km of a 10km planetoid fire a
> few laser blasts at the rock surrounding the mining outpost, demand no
> resistance then send in your Hearty Swashbucklers in a cutter to plunder the
> outpost while covered by your main ships weaponry. Before any help can
> arrive you are long gone.

No, you *can't* make that jump. You can jump to that close to where it
will be IF YOU EMERGE AT THE CALCULATED TIME. 

If you emerge at a different time, you'll be *way* out of position.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:17:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:17:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <006c01c1d6d7$27f40220$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20425.124254.1N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Timothy Little writes:
>> > Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> > > The jump ship isn't that much more expensive, and the performance
>> > > difference is quite large (it's actually a week for 0.4 AU, not 0.8
>> > > AU).
>> >
>> > (Are you sure you aren't using m s^-2 instead of g's?)
>>
>> Yes.  However, I'm also using HEPlaR (as per the person I was responding
> to),
>> which means max delta-V is horrible.
>
> That was me...
>
> I've just looked up the interplanetary travel rules in TNE. Lets take a
> Cutter with 48 G-Turns of Manoeuvre fuel... that's 24 G-Hours. Obviously you
> will use not more than 1/2 of that to accelerate (assuming you intend to
> stop again...) and realistically you would rarely use more than 1/3, so as
> to leave a 1/3 of a tank for emergencies.
>
> So we will go with 8 G-Hours of acceleration. According to the table on
> p.227 of TNE that equates to 18 minutes per Lightsecond. So in 6 days
> coasting (allowing the remaining day for accelerating and decelerating) you
> can travel (6x24x60)/18 = 480Ls... which is 8 Lightminutes or pretty much
> 1AU for a typical operational range.
>
> The Maximum range would be after 12 G-Hours of burn, reaching 12 minutes per
> Ls, or  1.5 AU in 6 days
>
> In the Broadsword vs Cutter example I used earlier, both have 48 G-Turns of
> fuel as standard, but the Broadsword can dip into its Jump Fuel for extra
> manoeuvre fuel. (With its J3 capacity we can assume it can fairly safely dip
> into 1/3 of its jump fuel without hindering its ability to Jump out if
> things go bad, for an extra 15 G-Turns)
>
> At M-3 the Cutter can reach top speed in 4 hours, the Broadsword only has
> M-2 so would take 6 Hours to reach the same speed,  but it can burn for a
> maximum of 15.5 G-Hours using Jump fuel taking it to about 9 minutes per Ls
>
> Assuming the Cutter has already spent 8 G-Hours burning and is coasting when
> the Broadsword Jumps in at relative rest, just as the Cutter passes it.

That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.

> The
> cutter burns for another hour and 20 minutes to reach 12 G-Hours, the
> Broadsword burns for 7 hours 45 minutes to reach its 15.5 G-Hour burn limit.

> So the Cutter goes at 15min/ls for 80minutes then 12min/ls. The Broadsword
> averages 18min/ls for 465 minutes then it travels at 9min/ls until it
> overhauls the cutter. after both ships stop accelerating the cutter is about
> 11.6 Ls ahead of the Broadsword. It then take the broadsword a further 7
> hours or so to close to point blank range... call it 8 or so to allow the
> broadsword some deceleration to match velocities.
>
> So within 16 Hours of arrival the cutter has been caught. In this time the
> vessels have travelled about 70 Ls, or about 0.15 AU.

Except that you are assuming that the cutter is running away in a
straight line. 

It's smarter to make burns at right angles to his course. That makes
your intercept harder because you don't get to build your vector as
easily. Also, don't forget the effect of light speed lag in trying to
counter his manuevers. Until you get close, you'll lose time
accelewrating in the wrong direction after each acceleration change he
makes. 

And in an emergency like this, *he* can afford to burn his tanks dry,
because either an SDB can intercept and refuel him, or a ship can
intercept him as he zips past his desination.

*He* can afford to be floating thru space with empty tanks. *You*
can't. 

Oh yeah if the cutter *does* run "straight" away from you, and you
follow, he can damage you severely just by dumping trash out the
airlock. Work out what a 50 gram bolt will do at 288 km/sec (8
g-hours). It's equivalent to 460 kilos of TNT.

In space a straight out "stern chase" is *dangerous* for the pursuer.

> A standard SDB has 112 G-Turns of fuel, or 56 G-Hours, so at most it will
> use 26 G-Hours to accelerate. Assuming it was coasting after a 26 G-Hour
> Burn (about 6.5 hours with its 4G drive) and was pointing in exactly the
> right direction it can cover a light second in about 5.5 minutes. In 16
> hours it can travel 175ls, or ~0.37 AU. So if the SDB was perfectly position
> on a reciprocal course with the cutter and already at full speed it could be
> about 0.5AU from where the chase started and get there in time to intercept
> in other circumstances it is likely that the Pirate will have a few hours
> before an SDB arrives, and will have plenty of time to jump if an SDB
> approaches.

Yes, but jumping without having made an intercept is a net loss for the
pirate. 

And as long as an SDB can eventually make an intercept with enough feul
to get back to base with the cutter before the life support in the
cutter runs out, the cutter can burn *all* of its fuel in evading you. 

> All this assumes as well that the Cutter reacts to the Broadswords arrival
> instantly, and that the Broadsword has useful residual velocity, and that it
> didn't jump in a few Ls ahead of the Cutter to cut its lead, and the SDB is
> perfectly positioned to intercept.

And that you emerge from jump at the precise time you planned, rather
than hours earlier or later. 

And a whole bunch of other assumptions I dealt with above.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:20:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:20:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017422404.1406.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20425.130046.1P5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I suppose a situation like that could exist.  Pretty rare, though.  Also, 
> since
> you're transporting mining products (dense, low-value) you're not going to 
> use
> cutters, you're going to use bulk carriers, and stealing the cargo will be
> horribly pointless (ok, you have a load of processed ore, at Cr 5,000 per 
> dton.
> What are you going to do with it?)

Heck, with *that* sort of cargo you don't even use a ship. You just
hang some radar corners off a container (or fuse the stuff into a
reasonably solid block instead of "wasting" a container) and either use
a tug to boost it into a transfer orbit or use a mass driver to launch
it into the orbit. 

At the other end a tug graples it and drags it to the customer.

It ain't worth stealing, and it ain't worth wasting a ship on for the
whole trip. In fact, unless there's a rush, such stuff would be in low
velocity orbits that took months or years in transit. You don't *care*
how long a load takes to get there as long as loads arrive regularly.
Sort of like a pipeline.

Nobody bothers tapping a pipeline to steal oil. It ain't worth the
hassle. And so what if it takes weeks for the oil to move from one end
to the other? As long as there's a steady stream...

>> After all, you can jump to within a thousand km of a 10km planetoid fire a
>> few laser blasts at the rock surrounding the mining outpost, demand no
>> resistance then send in your Hearty Swashbucklers in a cutter to plunder
>> the outpost while covered by your main ships weaponry. Before any help can
>> arrive you are long gone.
>
> And the people in the mining outpost move into their mining tunnels
> behind 500 meters of rock and laugh at you.

And he won't know *where* the tunnels are. So all he can do is blast
the places where they reach the surface. The miners can dig out later.
*They* have mining equipment. He doesn't.

And just picture the results of sending troops into a tunnel if the
miners start a tunneling machine from the other end. 

The troops can damage the cutting heads pretty badly before it crushes
them. Or they can use weapons that are apt to kill them at the same
time they stop the machine.

And if instead of mechanical cutting heads it uses lasers or particle
beams things get *really* interesting. <eg>


Hard rock mining gear is *tough*. It has to be. Gear for cutting into
nickel iron asteroids will be even tougher.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 14:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Thu Apr 25 13:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kokirrak Class DN HG To GT Conversion
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEHCDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <DAV14JGwTVfKB0vJXpV00005a42@hotmail.com>

> The new diet craze! Put on a black hole lapel pin and everyone will think
> you're eating when you aren't getting a single bite!
>

Or place a black hole in your modem.  Everyone will think you're receiving
data when you aren't getting a single byte.

Be assured, I am appropriately ashamed.

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <20020425120658.A16347@4dv.net>
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>; from texasredshift@hotmail.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:42:03PM -0500
Message-ID: <3CC91708.13447.1F83B4@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:06, Robert A. Uhl wrote:

> As ideas go, it's really not all that bad.  1% is a bit steep, though.

But it should be applied to all everything. Who really thinks SF fans 
are the only beneficiaries of NASA's work?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:03:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:03:12 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <200204251751.g3PHpXP22829@premier1.premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CC91708.29789.1F8305@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:48, wombat@premier.net wrote:

> Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my
> designs for _Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).
>  Note that all three of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry
> NPAW spinal mounts; I've never been a big fan of meson guns. 
> Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of meson
> guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that ecological
> niche. 

I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not 
rea;;y a fan of them either, and seldom use them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net>
References: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 14:35, Mark Urbin wrote:

> >Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You 
> >cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the 
> >First Amendment, with ample precedent.
> 
> Oh, like funking US Constitution 101 every kept anybody out of office...

Seems to me (on a quick read-through) that if actually knowing and up 
holding your constitution was a requirement for election you'd have a 
hell of a lot fewer politicians and also a great many fewer laws.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:11:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:11:37 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425.114504.-189505.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CC91946.27653.28495E@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

> Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> To rent a 1 bedroom house here in Stockton it's $1,000 a month minimum,
> to buy $125,000 minimum. For a resonably nice 2 bedroom place in a nice
> area expect to start at $250,000. This is typical throughout all the
> major cities in California.

Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three bedroom place in an 
okay area of Wellington. In my home town of Palmerston North you'd 
probably get a 4-bedroom place.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net>
 <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425171543.00b89ec0@urbin.net>

At 09:02 AM 4/26/02 +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 25 Apr 2002 at 14:35, Mark Urbin wrote:
> > >Hope he loses, because he clearly flunked 'US Constitution 101': You
> > >cannot enact special taxes on literature; it is a clear violation of the
> > >First Amendment, with ample precedent.
> > Oh, like funking US Constitution 101 every kept anybody out of office...
>Seems to me (on a quick read-through) that if actually knowing and up
>holding your constitution was a requirement for election you'd have a
>hell of a lot fewer politicians and also a great many fewer laws.

Oh ya...We would probably have just one member out of our current gaggle of 
congresscritters.

...and he'd be from Texas...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b8ee241a5d06@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:42 PM -0500 4/25/02, Texas Redshift wrote:
>  >From another list.  Not confirmed by me.
>
>< Begin quote >
>A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a plan
>to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
>Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
>proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
>space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
>Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to "space,
>space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," Williams said in
>a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, Ala.,
>resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science from
>the
>University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in business
>management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super Market at
>Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
>< End quote >
>
>Opinions?


How much of the budget would a 1% tax cover?
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 15:28:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Apr 25 14:28:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>
References: <OF40F1F70C.05A37532-ON85256BA6.00628ABD@pheaa.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8ee2476727f@[143.232.119.186]>

At 2:35 PM -0400 4/25/02, Mark Urbin wrote:
>Follow it with a 1% tax on art books, art supplies, and the sale of 
>art (records, tapes, movie tickets, paintings, etc.) to fund federal 
>art projects.

I'm not sure these sort of things are such a bad idea.  It would tie 
the projects in better with their constituencies.  For example, the 
SF tax would give NASA funding from a source that puts a priority on 
its activities and give those who are interested in space research 
more results.  (And people are more tolerant of taxes that go to 
specific things they support).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com> <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020426080850.A14241@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Actually, it's the method ised by floppy *and* hard disk controllers
> for just about everything. GCR and all the rest of that was only used
> by Apple and Commodore.

Yes, and wasn't even used in the Commodore Amiga.  It *could* read and
write GCR, but at single density.  (The GCR encoding method looks
better on paper, 4 bits out of 5, but is inherently lower-density for
a given magnetic coercivity of medium.)


> No, at the *hardware* level, it's still sectors and tracks.

Not even that: at the *hardware* level, it's a sequence of magnetic
polarity changes.  Software (or firmware) groups them into sectors and
tracks.  The Amiga didn't have a firmware sector decoder; it read
tracks in as '0' for no polarity change at the appropriate time, and
'1' if there was.  The MFM decoding, sector recognition, and error
checking was done in software -- by the CPU normally, but I wrote a
driver that used the "Agnes" GPU instead.


> *If* Commodore had used FM and MFM encoding on the disks, rather than
> GCR (basicly a different way of modulating the signal that represents
> the bitstream on the media), then all it'd take to read a C-64 disk on
> a PC would be some fancy software. 

As it is, most modern FDD controllers have MFM decoding and sector
recognition in firmware or hardware, so you can't do GCR reading
without changing chips.  However: there are software tricks by which
you can read *most* low-density GCR in an MFM drive (as in recover 90%
or so of the bits) so long as the drive hardware isn't too "smart" and
refuses to read what it thinks is a damaged sector.  Lower-density GCR
comes out with a predictable pattern of bits after MFM 'decoding'.
The only problem is loss of synchronization in low-quality drives.

I believe the Mac uses variable-speed drive hardware as well as GCR,
so this trick won't work with Mac disks.  (At least, they did 10 years
ago when I last played around with these things!)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:14:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:14:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <20020425.180812.-297303.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:42:03 -0500 "Texas Redshift"
<texasredshift@hotmail.com> writes:
> From another list.  Not confirmed by me.

Here's the actual link: 
http://www.al.com/news/huntsvilletimes/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_stan
dard.xsl?/base/news/101949940424601171.xml
 
> < Begin quote >
> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has 
> proposed a plan
> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times 
> reported.
> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District 
> seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and 
> Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply to 
> "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games," Williams 
> said in
> a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, 
> Ala.,
> resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science 
> from
> the
> University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in 
> business
> management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super 
> Market at
> Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
> < End quote >


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] second verse same as the first Chameleon
Message-ID: <3CC83AF3.17728.908D6@localhost>

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--Message-Boundary-8302--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F251utSgcOrBLSAQV6u0000a9dd@hotmail.com>
References: <F251utSgcOrBLSAQV6u0000a9dd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020426083935.A14400@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking about a 
> X-ray laser to it needs to be at least TL13.

That doesn't necessarily follow.  TL13 is where controlled and
contained Xray weapon lasers appear, is it not?  I would expect
detonation lasers to appear *much* earlier; TL8 or 9.


> Here is where we run out of information. How many lasing rods are
> there in a NukeDet?

I don't know.  However, the listed figures are probably the most that
can be directed at a single target (regardless of actual number of
rods).  If you have targets scattered around the nuke, it can almost
certainly generate more beams with the same warhead.


> Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow
> up) or something more powerful (that does)?

The latter, I would expect.  A cartridge that doesn't blow up is
over-engineered for this task.


>Can a lasing rod (as used in NukeDets) also be used with chemicals?

Almost certainly nuclear detonation lasers are nothing like chemical
ones.  They would be based on gamma/hard Xray radiation input to begin
with, and chemical reactions never generate such radiation.


> What is the cost/weight/volume of the lasing rod and tracking
> telescope?

TL dependent, certainly.  


> Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a lot. 
> TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing 
> Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical Lasing 
> Cartridge? Double this?

Theoretically possible, yes.  Practically?  I don't know.  The mass of
a cartridge is more than just the mass of chemical compounds contained
within it, and converting chemical energy to laser energy is usually
far from 100% efficient.  2 MJ/kg is very good, as far as I can see.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert A. Uhl)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>; from rboleyn@paradise.net.nz on Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:02:38AM +1200
References: <3CC84850.5030701@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143524.00b93d20@urbin.net> <3CC917AE.23938.220BA6@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020425164405.A20114@4dv.net>

On Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 09:02:38AM +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Seems to me (on a quick read-through) that if actually knowing and up 
> holding your constitution was a requirement for election you'd have a 
> hell of a lot fewer politicians and also a great many fewer laws.

That's not escaped a lot of folks.  Including, I fear, our
politicians.  Unfortunately, a politician's job is not to uphold the
rules but to keep the mob happy.

I've often felt that it would be a good idea to declare that any
legislator voting for an unconstitutional law may no longer hold any
office.  It'd make the courts too powerful, though.  Sigh.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only kind of freedom that the mob can imagine is freedom to annoy
and oppress its betters, and that is precisely the kind that we mainly
have.                                                   --H.L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Judder-drive?
In-Reply-To: <DAV22gADGFXpWvFmaWn0000574a@hotmail.com>
References: <DAV22gADGFXpWvFmaWn0000574a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020426084822.B14400@freeman.little-possums.net>

Texas Redshift wrote:
> The crucial thing, says Millis, is whether Goodwin's magnet would
> produce any net motion at all - it might just sit there and
> vibrate.

The jolt from switching a powerful electromagnet on or off certainly
isn't anything new in physics.  The exact magnitude is extremely
difficult to calculate in practice, but the physics behind it is just
well-known classical electromagnetism.

There is of course the *possibility* that new physics applies, and so
it might be worth looking at.  However, since known physics already
predicts such a jolt I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a
reactionless drive to arise from this research.

In fact, various plasma drives under test already use a more refined
version of this magnetic back-reaction; but of course they use
reaction mass.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 16:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 15:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250929470.30393-100000@vcsweb.com> <20425.022821.8K2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <20020426080850.A14241@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CC8894B.2060409@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> I believe the Mac uses variable-speed drive hardware as well as GCR,
> so this trick won't work with Mac disks.  (At least, they did 10 years
> ago when I last played around with these things!)

Only for the old, no-longer supported 400 and 800K single density and 
double density disks.

Moreover, the drivers for those 400K (and the 800 K , I think) disks 
represent the Woz's contribution to the Mac...these were actually a 
superior method of encoding than what was on PC's...you can store more 
(400 vs 360k, 800 vs 720) and it's a wee bit more reliable, since all 
the sectors are the same physical size, whereas the physical size (and 
packing of your magnetic bits) of a sector on a PC disk changes from the 
center out.

The Woz originally did this because Shugart wouldn't release specs on 
their floppy disk drives, iirc, so he hacked his own design for the 
original Apple II drives, and came up with this method.

(It's also not dumb, nor all that new, it is, essentially, the same 
mechanism a record player uses, and is used in the CD-red and blue book 
definitions)


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019696542.4978.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260840130.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Anthony:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Sure, congress is theoretically able to reinstate the draft.  They're just
> vanishingly unlikely to want to.

 The latrine-O-gram I heard was that it is just a vote of congress to
restablish the draft. An AYE/NAY vote. I can be very wrong on this point.

 Anyway FWIW I gave up a sole surviving son deferment to enlist. Thought
at the time it was the right thing to do. <1968>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260840130.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019777316.9882.ajackson@ping>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link writes:
> Hoi Anthony:
> 
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> > Sure, congress is theoretically able to reinstate the draft.  They're
> > just vanishingly unlikely to want to.
> 
>  The latrine-O-gram I heard was that it is just a vote of congress to
> restablish the draft. An AYE/NAY vote. I can be very wrong on this point.

Well, it would probably have to be a bill, like any other, requiring both
houses and a presidential signature.  There's lots of pretty extreme things
congress has the power to do, but that doesn't mean they'll actually do any of
those things.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260858570.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Mikko:

On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> Well, I wouldn't want to be in the field with smokers. It has no good
> points, and many bad.

 It was real nice of the rural VS boys after raiding a supply area to
spend the night lighting up the cigs. The red embers weren't fire flies.
I never heard what the rules by the Lao Dong party of the NVA put down if
anything about the VS and the NVA on smoking. I know that some did and
others didn't. FWIW you can tell the diffeence of cig tobacco by the
smell. Camels are the worse.

> Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even farther with image
> intensifiers. Also, you might want not to leave much stuff around, which
> is quite hard if you have to remember collecting everything you smoke.

 Policing the area is a problem for cig smokers. The cigar smokers I knew
would save the stub. Don'T remember the correct word. I smoked a pipe and
all I needed to do was spead and cover the ash.

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:41:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:41:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
References: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC892D7.39DE6B02@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

>      Nice touch!  A steward with odd culinary ideas sounds great.  Have the
> PCs loathe the meals she prepares BUT she also lures lots of high passengers
> aboard with the same.  The PCs Beowulf could get a rep for catering to a
> certain type of traveller; they pay well and are just annoying enough to
> make the PCs batty.
>
>      "Hadn't really thought of the ingredient angle.  Thanks Larsen."
>
>      Your very welcome.  Have your PCs set aside a low berth for the Vargr
> steward's "supplies"?  Or rigged up a similar device in the hold or
> engineering?  How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy
> stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other supplies
> and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require PRECISE
> enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the constant risk
> of possible allergens from all those plants wafting their way through the
> ventilation system...

Sweet! Once again thanks. Hee, hee, hee those poor PC's

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 17:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 16:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #445 - 17 msgs
Message-ID: <34.2697c722.29f9ee48@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/25/2002 5:27:56 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:

For the benefit of those of us who get the digest version, could you please 
put the text in the body of the message instead of attaching it?

All I see is several pages of the following"

>--Message-Boundary-8302
>Content-type: Text/HTML; name="TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class Commerce 
Raider.htm"
>Content-disposition: attachment; filename="TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class 
Commerce Raider.htm"
>Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64
>
>PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcmFuc2l0aW9u
>YWwvL0VOIj4NCjxodG1sIGxhbmc9ImVuIj4NCjxoZWFkPjx0aXRsZT5OZXcgU2hpcCBOYW1l
>PC90aXRsZT48L2hlYWQ+DQo8Ym9keT4NCjxQPjxiPjxjZW50ZXI+PGZvbnQgc2l6ZT0iKzEi
>PjgwMC10b24gPGk+Q2hhbWVsZW9uPC9pPi1jbGFzcyBDb21tZXJjZSBSYWlkZXIsIE5ldyBT
>aGlwIE5hbWUgKFRMMTIpPC9mb250PjwvY2VudGVyPjwvYj48L1A+DQpMaWdodCBDb21tZXJj
>ZSBSYWlkZXIsIE5hc3R5IGZvciBpdHMgc2l6ZQ0KDQo8UD48Qj5DcmV3PC9CPjogMjkgYW5k
>IDEwLTE2IFRyb29wcw0KPC9QPg0KPFA+PEI+SHVsbDwvQj46ICA4MDAtdG9uIFZHU0wsIG5v
>biBMaWZ0aW5nIEJvZHksIE1lZGl1bSBGcmFtZSwgU3RhbmRhcmQgTWF0ZXJpYWxzLCBCb25k
>ZWQgU3VwZXJkZW5zZSAoRXhwZW5zaXZlKSBBcm1vcmVkIEh1bGwgKERSIDQwMDAsIFRoZXJt
>YWwgU3VwZXItY29uZHVjdGluZyBBcm1vciwgUHNpLVNoaWVsZGVkKSwgU3RhbmRhcmQgQ29t
>cGFydG1lbnRhbGl6YXRpb24sIEJhc2ljIFN0ZWFsdGggKC04LCBBTW9kIDIpLCBSYWRpY2Fs
>IEVtaXNzaW9uIENsb2FraW5nICgtMTYsIFBNb2QgLTYgWy04LCBQTW9kIDIgaW4gc3BhY2Vd
>KS48L1A+DQo8UD48Qj5Db250cm9sIEFyZWFzPC9CPjogIENvbW1hbmQgQnJpZGdlIChDb21w
>bGV4aXR5IDEwKSwgIEVuaCBTZW5zb3JzLCAgQ29tcHV0ZXIgQmFuayAoOHhNYWNyb2ZyYW1l
>LCBIaUNhcCwgSGFyZGVuZWQsIENvbXBsZXhpdHkgMTApLCAgRVcgKEhhcmRlbmVkLCBDb21w
>bGV4aXR5IDEwKS48L1A+DQo8VEFCTEUgV0lEVEg9IjkwJSI+DQo8VFI+DQo8VEggQUxJR049
>IkxFRlQiPjxVPkNvbW11bmljYXRvciBSYW5nZSAobWkpPC9VPjwvVEQ+DQo8VEggQUxJR049


Thanks

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020425.170405.-125887.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> 
> Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three bedroom place in 
> an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of Palmerston North you'd 
> probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> 
> -- 

Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security, and my disability
pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020425143148.00b93180@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260939420.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi All:

 So would this tax be followed up with a 1% tax on Fantasy RPGs movies and
literature to help finance the Department of Defense <LOL>

BCNU

-- 
 *****
******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
**            Chancellor & Editor for
**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
 *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425.170405.-125887.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CC94593.29071.D5590E@localhost>

On 25 Apr 2002 at 17:04, generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security, and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.

Now that's the trick, isn't it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 18:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Apr 25 17:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <200204260023.EZT00242@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Lord Ronin from Q-Link says
> So would this tax be followed up with a 1% tax on Fantasy 
>RPGs movies and literature to help finance the Department of 
>Defense <LOL>
>

Now let's think about that for a minute. A lot of us have 
already made our contribution bodily to various Departments 
of Defense (or War, as the case may be).  

Then there's old gaming codgers like Dunnigan, who are now 
central figures in mainstream DoD circles.  

I think that there should be a "lack of imagination" tax.  If 
you spend more on movies, television, and pop music than you 
do on science fiction books and role playing games, then you 
should be required to pay a 25% tax on movies, television, 
and pop music, the proceeds of which should be paid to the 
people who bring you science fiction books and role playing 
games.


We can certainly think up a complicated formula for payment, 
based on the popularity of your work over the years.
________________
There's a man who leads a life of danger
To everyone he meets he stays a stranger
With every move he makes another chance he takes 
Odds are he won't live to see tomorrow

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Apr 25 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
References: <20020425222704.BE24927AE3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC8A8A1.B8979294@earthlink.net>

Rupert Boleyn posted:
> 
> On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:48, wombat@premier.net wrote:
> 
> > Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my
> > designs for _Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).
> >  Note that all three of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry
> > NPAW spinal mounts; I've never been a big fan of meson guns.
> > Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of meson
> > guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that ecological
> > niche.
> 
> I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
> really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.

First of all, thank you to all of those who replied. Patrik, I'm
going to mine your site this evening for ideas! Your "Recurrent
Glory"-class is positively stunning.

As for meson guns..yeah, I never liked 'em. Never, that is, until
I saw Patrik's website. How about a 406 Gj Meson Spinal mount that
can punch through a cruiser's meson screen (and armor) at Long
distance?

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 19:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 18:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <18819783.11D89EB1.02280B06@aol.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:
> I think that there should be a "lack of imagination" tax.

It's conversations like this that remind me that Ayn
Rand, cracked as she was, actually had a few useful
insights.

The real reason libertarianism never gets anywhere is
because *everyone* has some tax or rule that they would
like to see imposed by force on their fellow men. We
all have some behavior of which we disapprove, so we
reach for the levers of government in order to outlaw
that behavior for everyone. In short, we have met the
second-handers, and they are us.

(Yes, John, I know you weren't being terribly serious.
You just reminded me of a long-standing pet peeve.)

---
Jon



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
In-Reply-To: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>
References: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020426125234.A14613@freeman.little-possums.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy
> stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other
> supplies and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require
> PRECISE enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the
> constant risk of possible allergens from all those plants wafting
> their way through the ventilation system...

Oy!  Stop giving my GM nasty ideas!

My character already has a single-occupancy stateroom with dozens of
exotic plants, special lighting conditions, some with individual
atmospheres, and the cabin *does* have tuned gravity.  Our current
situation has some type of lifeform running around the ship, regarding
which one character has already had suspicions about where it might
have come from.  We don't need allergens as well!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
References: <18819783.11D89EB1.02280B06@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006101c1ecd1$c51ce610$9307b286@Shane>

> The real reason libertarianism never gets anywhere is
> because *everyone* has some tax or rule that they would
> like to see imposed by force on their fellow men.

We do?  Damn, I'd better come up with one quickly or I'll be a *no-one*.
Oh wait.. I already am. :)
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Member of the general public since 1976
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
References: <20425.124254.1N8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <001401c1ecd2$fada91c0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>

<snip>

> Matt Bond wrote:
> > Assuming the Cutter has already spent 8 G-Hours burning and is coasting
when
> > the Broadsword Jumps in at relative rest, just as the Cutter passes it.
>
> That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
> emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.

And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that IMTU
while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
calculable duration.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:39:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:39:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
References: <F150LUEM7RAluo3npvq000035f3@hotmail.com> <20020426125234.A14613@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <006901c1ecd2$f537b2c0$9307b286@Shane>

Tim wrote:
> My character already has a single-occupancy stateroom with dozens of
> exotic plants, special lighting conditions, some with individual
> atmospheres, and the cabin *does* have tuned gravity.  Our current
> situation has some type of lifeform running around the ship, regarding
> which one character has already had suspicions about where it might
> have come from.  We don't need allergens as well!

"What am I, a biologist now?  How was I meant to know the captain was
allergic to cyanide gas?"
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Trying to plead his case from the wrong side of the
airlock hatch
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 21:53:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 20:53:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <17d.7662cf6.29fa26e8@aol.com>

"Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> writes:

>We, the viewers, keep seeing special and unusual cases.
>For example, _USS Enterprise_ (from the old series) was one
>of only twelve Constitution-class cruisers, and such ships
>were the most prestigious ships in Galaxy Exploration Command,
>which was the most prestigious division of Starfleet.  The
>crews of these special ships were officers from Captain
>down to bottle-washer.

Heh. I'm of the opinion that in Star Fleet, Ensigns are a mis-translation of 
the old Terran naval tradition, since in ST they seem to be what you "run up 
the flagpole to see who shoots back"...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 22:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Apr 25 21:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <20020425.213237.-125945.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 23:43:36 EDT GypsyComet@aol.com writes:
> "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> writes:
> 
> >We, the viewers, keep seeing special and unusual cases.
> >For example, _USS Enterprise_ (from the old series) was one
> >of only twelve Constitution-class cruisers, and such ships
> >were the most prestigious ships in Galaxy Exploration Command,
> >which was the most prestigious division of Starfleet.  The
> >crews of these special ships were officers from Captain
> >down to bottle-washer.
> 
> Heh. I'm of the opinion that in Star Fleet, Ensigns are a 
> mis-translation of 
> the old Terran naval tradition, since in ST they seem to be what you 
> "run up  the flagpole to see who shoots back"...
> 
> GC

There were plenty of enlisted personnel in all of the ST series, but they
were the extras, and the ones who were killed off in battles. And don't
forget the most famous enlisted man Chief O'brian.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 22:49:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Thu Apr 25 21:49:06 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <F182WZbQLbzjADMBLxt00008700@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020425223624.044bbc10@rollanet.org>

At 08:56 AM 4/25/02, you wrote:
>John Groth <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
>
>This may not be accurate, as I'm drawing on secondary sources
>(FASA's Star Trek RPG) for this...
>
>
>As I said, this is material from a secondary source, so it
>may be inaccurate.  It may even be a whole-cloth creation
>of the game designers, rather than a report of the actual
>organization of Gene Rodenberry's Starfleet.
>
>Walt Smith
>Firelock on DALNet

 From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry 
(copyright 1968)

     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 22:55:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Thu Apr 25 21:55:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <20020425.213237.-125945.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020425.213237.-125945.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <200204260054080915.01D811E7@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

Traveller's Aide #1 for T20 and Classic Traveller is now available, along=
 with subscriptions.
http://www.TravellerRPG.com


Hunter




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Apr 25 23:08:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu Apr 25 22:08:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: shadowcat's ships (was TML digest, Vol 2002 #445 - 17 msgs)
In-Reply-To: <34.2697c722.29f9ee48@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEIEDMAA.tml@downport.com>

To facilitate your enjoyment of shadowcat's ship conversions, the Aslan
Ambassador has kindly allowed him to park them in his pocket empire:

http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
>
> For the benefit of those of us who get the digest version, could
> you please
> put the text in the body of the message instead of attaching it?


Unfortunately, placing them in the body wraps them in all of the wrong
places. All 72 (so far) of his recent conversions are there in HTML and
'GURPS Traveller Ships' (.gtv) versions.

For those who have been following, this is the direct link to his
most-recent offering
http://www.pocketempires.com/fafrhd/TL12_800-ton_Chameleon-class_Commerce_Ra
ider.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 01:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Fri Apr 26 00:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CC96FDE.27660.37E569C@localhost>

I think the most interesting aspect of this proposed tax is that it 
necessitates a definition of what exactly "science fiction" is.  Is 
/Gravity's Rainbow/ SF?  Is /Flowers for Algernon/?  What about 
Michael Crichton's stuff?  And maybe some drek would be 
exempted as being science fantasy -- the Star Wars franchise, 
/ID4/, etc.

<facetious>
Good, no more petty squabbling among people who actually read 
the stuff, now we're going to get a nice, clear government definition!
</facetious>

-- Rachel

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 02:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 26 01:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote :

> Well, I wouldn't want to be in the field with smokers.
> It has no good points, and many bad.

Oh, I don't know. If I was "in the field" I would be more
concerned about my personal survival than the rest of the unit,
and if the others were smokers that makes them bigger targets
than I, presumably increasing my chances of survival!
<grin>

> Aside from smoke, it can be seen very far, and even
> farther with image intensifiers. Also, you might
> want not to leave much  stuff around, which
> is quite hard if you have to remember collecting
> everything you smoke.

I always remember the surprise I got when it was demonstratd to
me that a person taking even a clandestine puff on a
hand-shielded cigarette can be seen from over 2kms with the naked
eye in the dark. The flare of a lit match is even more visible.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:10:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:10:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1017438121.4165.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20425.131430.3i5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> And the output of the mining won't be, for example, lanthanun ore, it will
>> be lanthanum... the availability of cheap fusion power makes refining the
>> ore at site then shipping the refined product cost effective compared to
>> shipping ore to a larger refinery elsewhere.
>
> Sort of true.  However, there's no real reason to have multiple small
> mines in a system; just use one big mining ship, reduce asteroids to
> rubble one at a time, and move on.

Actually, this is a flaw in the background. With cheap fusion power,
and especially if the fusion is based on continuous fusion in a plasma
(confined magnetically or by a combo of magnetic and gravitic forces)
you shovel rock in one end and get isotopically pure elements out the
other. The stuff you don't have much need for (like silicon and
aluminum, which "rock" has *way* too much of) you just combinine with
the (way too much) oxygen to form convenient lumps of quartz and
sapphire. 

You'll wind up with megatons of "common" elements, and tons of rare
ones... 

Assuming abundances similar to the Earth's crust, from 10 million tons
of rock (a cube about 1.5 km on a side), you'll get:

        mg/kg			yeild
        -------		----------------------
O	4.61e5		4.6e9	 4,600 kilotons
Si	2.82e5		2.82e9	 2,820 kilotons
Al	8.23e4		8.23e8	   823 kilotons
Fe	5.63e4		5.63e8	   563 kilotons
Ca	4.15e4		4.15e8	   415 kilotons
Na	2.36e4		2.36e8	   236 kilotons
Mg	2.33e4		2.33e8     233 kilotons
K	2.09e4		2.09e8	   209 kilotons
Ti	5.65e3		5.56e7	55,600 tons
H	1.4e3		1.4e7	14,000 tons
P	1.05e3		1.05e7	10,500 tons
Mn	9.50e2		9.50e6	 9,500 tons
F	5.85e2		5.85e6	 5,850 tons
Ba	4.25e2		4.25e6	 4,250 tons
Sr	3.70e2		3.70e6	 3,700 tons
S	3.5e2		3.5e6	 3,500 tons
C	2.00e2		2.00e6	 2,000 tons
Zr	1.65e2		1.65e6	 1,650 tons
Cl	1.45e2		1.45e6	 1,450 tons
V	1.20e2		1.20e6	 1,200 tons
Cr	1.02e2		1.02e6	 1,020 tons
Rb	9.0e1		9.0e5	   900 tons
Ni	8.4e1		8.4e5	   840 tons
Zn	7.0e1		7.0e5	   700 tons
Ce	6.65e1		6.65e5	   665 tons
Cu	6.0e1		6.0e5	   600 tons
Nd	4.15e1		4.15e5	   415 tons
La	3.9e1		3.9e5	   390 tons
Y	3.3e1		3.3e5	   330 tons
Co	2.5e1		2.5e5	   250 tons
Sc	2.2e1		2.2e5	   220 tons
Li	2.0e1		2.0e5	   200 tons
Nb	2.0e1		2.0e5	   200 tons
Ga	1.9e1		1.9e5	   190 tons
N	1.9e1		1.9e5	   190 tons
Pb	1.4e1		1.4e5	   140 tons
B	1e1		1e5	   100 tons
Th	9.6		9.6e4   96,000 kilos
Pr	9.2		9.2e4	92,000 kilos
Sm	7.05		7.05e4	70,500 kilos
Gd	6.2		6.2e4   62,000 kilos
Dy	5.2		5.2e4   52,000 kilos
Ar	3.5		3.5e4   35,000 kilos
Er	3.5		3.5e4   35,000 kilos
Yb	3.2		3.2e4   32,000 kilos
Hf	3.0		3.0e4   30,000 kilos
Cs	3		3e4     30,000 kilos
Be	2.8		2.8e4   28,000 kilos
U	2.7		2.7e4   27,000 kilos
Br	2.4		2.4e4   24,000 kilos
Sn	2.3		2.3e4   23,000 kilos
Eu	2.0		2.0e4   20,000 kilos
Ta	2.0		2.0e4   20,000 kilos
As	1.8		1.8e4   18,000 kilos
Ge	1.5		1.5e4   15,000 kilos
Ho	1.3		1.3e4   13,000 kilos
W	1.25		1.25e4  12,500 kilos
Mo	1.2		1.2e4   12,000 kilos
Tb	1.2		1.2e4   12,000 kilos
Tl	8.5e-1		8.5e3	 8,000 kilos
Lu	8e-1		8e3      8,000 kilos
Tm	5.2e-1		5.2e3    5,200 kilos
I	4.5e-1		4.5e3	 4,500 kilos
In	2.5e-1		2.5e3	 2,500 kilos
Sb	2e-1		2e3	 2,000 kilos
Cd	1.5e-1		1.5e3	 1,500 kilos
Hg	8.5e-2		8.5e2	   850 kilos
Ag	7.5e-2		7.5e2	   750 kilos
Se	5e-2		5e2	   500 kilos
Pd	1.5e-2		1.5e2	   150 kilos
Bi	8.5e-3		8.5e1	    85 kilos
He	8e-3		8e1	    80 kilos
Ne	5e-3		5e1         50 kilos
Pt	5e-3		5e1         50 kilos
Os	1.5e-3		1.5e1	    15 kilos
Ir	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Rh	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Ru	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Te	1e-3		1e1	    10 kilos
Re	7e-4		7	     7 kilos
Xe	3e-5		3e-1	   300 grams
Pa	1.4e-6		1.4e-2	    14 grams
Ra	9e-7		9e-3	     9 grams
Ac	5.5e-10		5.5e-6	 5,500 micrograms
Po	2e-10		2e-6	 2,000 micrograms
Rn	4e-13		4e-9	     4 micrograms

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote Clan Trader
Message-ID: <3CC92AA7.7B2468DE@mindspring.com>

Grote Clan Trader
Most clans make their living by operating free traders or the 300 dT
Grote Clan trader. These clan vessels serve along carefully
planned and investigated trade loops that service dozens of smaller
worlds. A Grote trader showing up twice a year may be the
only "scheduled" trader some worlds see. Clan members may have been
anywhere between the Far Frontiers, Vland, and the
Trans-Rift jump 5 route.

 Craft ID:         Grote Clan Trader, TL 11, 147.229 Mcr, Quantity
discount 132.506 MCr

 Hull:         270/675, Disp=300, Config=Cone 2Sl, Armour=Crystaliron
40E, Loaded=4521.07, Unloaded=3253.106

 Power:          Primary 8/16, Fusion=726 Mw, Duration=30days
                      Secondary 12/24, Fusion=1062 Mw, Duration=3days,
Scoops, Purifiers 24 Hours
                     ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=34 days

 Loco:          8/16 Jump=2, 5/10 Maneuver=1G, Agility=1, NOE=150 Kph

 Comm:         Radio=System x 1, Laser =System x 1

 Sensors:       A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1
                     Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=-  POP=-  PES=R
PEP=-

 Off:         3 Hardpoints, 3 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  Triple Laser-7        x 1 in 1 battery

                                      Triple Sand-10      x 1 in 1
battery
                                      Triple Missile-7     x 1 in 1
Battery
                        Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Missile   2    -     -
                                          1
                             Laser     3    -    -
                                           1
                             Sand      4    -    -
                                           1

 Def:            Def DM= 4

 Control:     Computer=Model 3fib x 3, Panels=Dynamic Linked x 369, HUD
x 5

 Accom:     Officer=1 Crew=7 ( Bridge=2 Engineering=2 Gunners=2
Command=1 Stewards=1 Frozen=8 ) Passengers:
                 High=10  Staterooms=10 Small Staterooms=8, Low
Berths=8, Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
                  inertial comp, Airlocks x 2

 Subcraft:  Air/Raft x1(4 dton, TL 11)

 Other:      Cargo=1376.7 Kl/102 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=907 Kl/67
tons, ObjSize=Average, Ram time= 1.1hours


Author: Alan Spik
Adapted from
Ship: Clan Menzies
Class: Grote Clan Trader
Type: Merchant
Architect: William R. Cameron

USP
         MP-32212B1-040000-30002-0 MCr 162.134 300 Tons
Bat Bear             1     1   1   Crew: 8
Bat                     1     1   1   TL: 11

Cargo: 100.000 Passengers: 10 Frozen Watch Fuel: 66.000 EP: 6.000
Agility: 1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 1.621   Cost in Quantity: MCr 129.707

Note:

     Price increased slightly.
     Computer model increased to 3/fib as 2/fib has not enough control
points. I put five HUD onboard one each for gunners,
     Bridge crew and the commander.
     Passenger get normal Staterooms, Crew have individual small
Staterooms
     Power increased to 7.2 EP to cover weapons and agility. Plant split
into a primary and secondary for 30 days normal
     operation, agility 0, and a 3day combat/agility boost
     Added Air/Raft

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:45:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:45:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote Outrim Jade Patrol craft
Message-ID: <3CC92C3E.F65CA749@mindspring.com>

Grote Outrim Jade Class Escort Patrol
    The Outrim Jade class is Grotes answer to the Escort vessel for the
Merchant Fleet. In addition to escorting the legendary
Grotian Black Ships, they can be found patrolling merchant routes or
hunting the occasional transgressor against the sanctity of
the traders.
 Craft ID:    Grote Outrim Jade class patrol vessel, TL 13, 613.028 Mcr,
Quantity discount 551.725 MCr

 Hull:       540/1350, Disp=600, Config=Dome/Disc 6Sl,
Armour=Crystaliron 52E, Loaded=11836.149,
              Unloaded=11377.19

Power:       Primary 29/58, Fusion=3,978 Mw, Duration=30 days, Scoops,
Purifiers 24 Hours
                 Secondary 51/102, Fusion=6,840, Duration=3 days
                 ExtEnd excludes: (1g), Weapons=103 days

 Loco:          22/44, Jump=2, 43/86, Maneuver=3G, Agility=0/3

 Comm:          Radio=System x1, Laser=System x 1

 Sensors:          A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1, Hi-pen
Densinometer(1m) x 1, Neutrino(1Gw) x 1
                       Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=F  POP=F
PES=R  PEP=F

 Off:         6 Hardpoints, 6 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  Triple BLaser-7     x 2 in 2 battery
                                      Triple Sand-10      x 2 in 2
battery
                                      Triple Missile-7     x 2 in 2
Battery
                        Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Missile   3    -     -
                                          2
                             Laser     4    -    -
                                          2
                             Sand      4    -    -
                                          2

 Def:         Def DM=9

 Control:          Computer=Model 5fib x 3, Panels=Dynamic Linked x
1323, HUholoD x 9, Large Holodisplay x1

 Accom:      Officer=5 Crew=25 ( Bridge=3 Engineering=4 Gunners=4
Flight=4 Troops=10 Command=4 Stewards=1)
                  Staterooms=5, Small Staterooms=25, Emergency Low
Berths=6, Env=basic env, basic ls,
                  extended ls,  grav plates,  inertial comp, Airlocks x
4

 Subcraft:         Gig x1(20 dton, Crew=3, TL=13)

 Other:          Cargo=215 Kl/15.9 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=3485
Kl/258 tons, ObjSize=Large, Ram time= 2.2 hours


Author: Alan Spik
Adapted from
Ship: Outrim Ruby
Class: Outrim Jade
Type: Escort/Strike Patroller
Architect: Shemp

USP
         EP-66335C2-440000-40003-0 MCr 548.576 600 Tons
Bat Bear             2     2   2   Crew: 25
Bat                     2     2   2   TL: 13

Cargo: 10.000 Emergency Low: 6 Fuel: 210.000 EP: 30.000 Agility: 3
Marines: 10
Craft: 1 x 20T Pinnace
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x 1G Maneuver Drive 1 x Jump 1 Drive 1 x Factor 1 Power Plant
1 x
Model/1 Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 5.486   Cost in Quantity: MCr 438.861

Notes:

      As specified, w/o backups and increasing the power plant to
achieve agility 3 the vessel has a volume deficit of 150
     dtons. I changed the power plant to a primary/Secondary (Normal
operations/Weapons & Screens) power system 30/3
     days total 43+ EP ( With the below changes/notes this brings cargo
to 15.9 tons)
     Computer increased to 5 fib to cover control points
     Crew increased to 30 by crew calculation
     9 HUholoD installed for Gunners, Bridge Crew and some of command
crew. Large holodisplay installed
     Assume Officers are in standard staterooms Crew are in small
Staterooms
     In addition to A-EMS and P-EMS I installed TL appropriate Hi-pen
Densinometer and Neutrino detector
     Price increased
     Pinnaces in the OTU and IMTU are 40 dtons. I substituted a 20 dton
Gig.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote Black Ship
Message-ID: <3CC92D0B.F946A2A4@mindspring.com>

Grote Black Ship
The Grote Black Ship is the 57th century version of the containerized
cargo ship. They make a bee-line to the entrepot system,
stopping only long enough to refuel. In transit to their destination,
Black Ships refuel only at Class A or B ports in trustworthy
systems. Otherwise the escorting vessels act as fuel lighters during
frontier refueling. The wilderness refueling points may be
very distant gas giants, Kuiper belt objects, or random comets. A system
may never know that a Black Ship convoy has
passed through. They hump precious cargo and replacement crew from Grote
to whatever system has been designated the
sector entrepot that year. The clan traders moving along their trade
loops all eventually visit the designated entrepot system to
pick up new crew and high TL goodies. The boost in trade leads systems
in these sectors to compete among each other to host
the Grote entrepot. The Black ship is unusual in that it is built from
high tech parts imported to Grote by

 Craft ID:         Grote Black Ship, TL 13, 2403.599 Mcr, Quantity
discount 2163.239 MCr

 Hull:      6300/15750, Disp=7,000, Config=Irregular 7Usl,
Armour=Superdense 40E, Loaded=76334.002,
              Unloaded=53789.964

 Power:          Primary 125/250, Fusion=16,848 Mw, Duration=30 days,
Scoops, Purifiers 24 Hours
                     Secondary 113/226, Fusion=15210 Mw, Duration=3
Days( Weapons, Screens and Agility)
                     ExtEnd excludes: (1g), =62 days

 Loco:          315/630 Jump=4, 126/252, Maneuver=1G, Agility=0

 Comm:          Radio=System x 1, Laser =System x 1

 Sensors:   A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1, Hi-pen
Densinometer(1m) x 1, Neutrino(1Gw) x 1
                Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=F  POP=F  PES=R  PEP=F

 Off:         70 Hardpoints, 70 Occupied, Batteries Bearing 100%
                        Turrets:  Triple Laser-13        x 10 in 10
battery
                                      Triple Sand-10      x 30 in 10
battery
                                      Triple Missile-13     x 30 in 3
Battery
                        Combat Statistics:
                                          T    B    S
                             Missile   7    -     -
                                          3
                             Laser     4    -    -
                                           10
                             Sand      6    -    -
                                           10

 Def:         Def DM= 6, Nuclear Damper=F3

 Control:          Computer=Model 6fib x 3, Panels=Holodynamic Linked x
4419, HUholoD x 64, Large holodisplay x 1

 Accom:          Officer=17 Crew=152 ( Bridge=10 Engineering=14
Maintenance=1 Gunners=47 Flight=10 Command=14
                      Stewards=3 Medical=70) Passengers: Low=1400
Staterooms=17 Small Staterooms=152, Low Berths=1400,
                      Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
inertial comp, Airlocks x 14

 Subcraft:         Gig x 1 (20 dton, Crew=3, TLC), Modular Cutter x 2
(50 dton, Crew=2, TLC)

 Other:          Cargo=20375.9 Kl/1509.3 tons, EMLevel=Moderate,
Fuel=30973 Kl/2294 tons, ObjSize=Large

Author: Alan Spik
Created from a discussion with Mr. LE Whipsnade

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:51:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:51:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Grotes Clan Shps
Message-ID: <3CC92DBB.6AA8007C@mindspring.com>

Hi all!
The vessels that follow were converted from LEW's HG2 designs of the
Grote Clan vessels.Or created from discussions concerning Grote and ways
to kill the PC's......I mean make the game more enjoyable.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 04:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri Apr 26 03:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CC96FDE.27660.37E569C@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEGPHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rachel Kronick wrote :

> I think the most interesting aspect of this proposed
> tax is that it  necessitates a definition of what
> exactly "science fiction" is.

Good point.

> Is /Gravity's Rainbow/ SF?  Is /Flowers for Algernon/?

I'd say yes to both personally.

> What about Michael Crichton's stuff?

Yes, definitely. At least Andromeda Strain, and the Jurassic Park
stuff anyway.

> And maybe some drek would be exempted as being science
> fantasy -- the Star Wars franchise, /ID4/, etc.

That's probably the market they want to tax because it's so
profitable!

Would '1984' count as science fiction seeing as it is in the
past?
Or "2001" ?
How about Harry Turtledove's "The Guns of the South" ?
Or Steampunk (like the recent "Wild Wild West"?
And what about Yeats' "Erewhon" ?
Or Swift's "Gulliver's Travels" ?

Is "The Cube" SF or horror ?
How about "Event Horizon", "Pitch Black", or even "Alien"?

Deciding this could keep the US legislators busy for many months.

What a great idea this is, they could then start funding
hospitals with a tax on hospital dramas, and police forces with a
tax on police shows, and prisons with a tax on the Sopranos, and
mental institutions with a tax on "Fraser" (or perhaps any sitcom
for that matter, and those reality TV shows to boot).

> <facetious>
> Good, no more petty squabbling among people who actually read
> the stuff, now we're going to get a nice, clear
> government definition!
> </facetious>

That would probably be the best thing to come from this.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 05:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 04:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <3CC898A7.24874.A0B7D7@localhost>
Message-ID: <20426.032205.4g1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 25 Apr 2002 at 1:34, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > How about the government/police being sued for harrasment? That'd at 
>> > least keep the false positive rate down.
>> 
>> You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
>> entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
>> take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
>> have to be present at the trial *there*. 
>
> Well sue the originating organisation. Then sue 'em for libel in that 
> they spread false infermation about you.

Trouble is, that doesn't work if it's a police department making an
"honest mistake". As I've said, over the years comp.risks has had posts
about a number errors of that sort.

The best you can get from the originating department is for them to fix
*their* records. They are *not* responsible for other departments
picking up the erroneous "want" and sticking it in their own databases.

You really and truly *do* have to sue each and every department,
individually.

Now in the "private mall, using this for security" scenario, then you
have a *much* better chance of winning a suit. But if it's a police
agency, it's a *lot* harder.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 05:21:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 04:21:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <001401c1ecd2$fada91c0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20426.031637.5Y6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>
> <snip>
>
>> Matt Bond wrote:
>> > Assuming the Cutter has already spent 8 G-Hours burning and is coasting
> when
>> > the Broadsword Jumps in at relative rest, just as the Cutter passes it.
>>
>> That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
>> emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.
>
> And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that IMTU
> while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
> calculable duration.

Pardon me for not keeping track of the ways your TU differs from the
OTU over the time that's passed since those posts...

If your TU differs from the "standard" one, then you need to
*explicitly* state applicable differences or live with people assuming
that anything you haven't specificly mentioned works "normally". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 05:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 04:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (OT/spam) FS: TSR's ALTERNITY gamebooks
Message-ID: <200204261140.g3QBeuG09224@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

  FWIW, if anyone is interested in space opera I've getting
rid of a largish collection of TSR's (or WotC - take your 
pick...) ALTERNITY rules and supplemnts, & STARDRIVE and 
DARK MATTER settings. Replies to me, _not_ the TML :)

  Steven Hudson - shudson@lightspeed.ca 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 06:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr 26 05:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise (With my Jump Durat
 ion rules reiterated)
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8B@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> 
> In mail you write:
<snip>
> > And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you 
> would know that IMTU
> > while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a 
> predictable and
> > calculable duration.
> 
> Pardon me for not keeping track of the ways your TU differs from the
> OTU over the time that's passed since those posts...
> 
> If your TU differs from the "standard" one, then you need to
> *explicitly* state applicable differences or live with people assuming
> that anything you haven't specificly mentioned works "normally". 

Well as I had mentioned it detail both in earlier parts of the piracy
thread *and* the astogation thread, I got tired of writing it out in
every post... 

To reiterate:

The only difference in my universe is that rather then rolling jump
duration *after* jump has commenced, and the duration being unknown
until just before emergence, I roll *before* jump, and the duration is
calculable by the astrogator prior to jump starting. Any other vessel
initiating jump from within a few thousand km of the jump intitation
point heading to within a few thousand km of the jump exit poit within a
few hours will have the same duration (to within a few minutes or less).
Jumps to or from diffent points, or at different times will have
different jump durations (ie roll a new duration). 

A skilled astrogator can calculate the jump duration for increasingly
distant start times, and so may be able to identify a quicker jump
duration 'window' occurring in several hours time that will result in
earlier arrival time than jumping immediately (ie roll a number of jump
'window' durations equal to the astrogators skill. Each window is
several hours long (somwhere between 4 and 6 seems appropriate). So you
if you have skill 4 you know *in advance* the jump duration if you jump
now, in 4 hours, 8 hours, 12 hours, or 16 hours time etc. 

Oh, and an 'astrogator' of skill 0 gets no advance rolls, so is stuck
with whatever jump duration he rolls on initiating Jump. He is unskilled
enough to calculate a jump duration before conditions have changed such
that the calculated time is moot. He still knows what time they will
emerge from jump though, as he can caulate the exit time and get the
answer a few hours into the jump as he knows what conditions were on
jump initiation...

What are the benefits of my interpretation of when jump duration is
rolled? Coordinated Fleet Movements and improved value of astrogation
skill. Both of which I find desirable. Downsides to my interpretation?
none that I can think of. I still retain the canonicity of random jump
duration, only my interpretaion of when the random duration is rolled is
different. 

And I'm hard pressed to recall any GDW canon (as opposed to possible
Gurps or DGP canon) which states that the rolled duration is unknown
until exit, just that there is a variable duration to jumps and that
they do not all take 7 days, but instead take roughly 6-8 days and a
roll is made to determine exact duration. Indeed I recall mention in
some GDW products that Fleets can arrive simultaneaously, which must
either mean jump duration is known in advance so that each ship can jump
in staggered intervals to co-ordinate arrival times, or all ships in a
given vicintity at a given time jumping to the same destination have the
same jump duration, or indeed, as I have interpreted it, jump duration
is both known in advance and is constant for a given jump at a given
time.

I await your comments with both bated breath and asbestos undies...

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 08:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 26 07:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On:  Glenn Grant's Smart Fabrics!
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1019830438.0.01037600@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Some years back, there was a discussion on the TML of the use of optic technology to weave a "smart" fabric. It was authored by Glenn Grant with the input of Rob O'Connor, Mikko, and others of this list. The results can be found on our mail host's wonderful Traveller Central website.

Well...

Today, ABCNews.com has posted a story of a Real Life(tm) fabric fiber (fibre, for those across the pond) that incorporates optic technology. The story is at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/CuttingEdge/cuttingedge020426.html

The team that developed the new fiber/fibre is part of the new Institute for Soldier Nanotechnology at MIT. Cost of the process is 10 U.S. cents per meter.

Reflec, anyone? 

I know, I know. We may not be there yet, but...

David Smart
("We Want Jumpdrive! We Want Jumpdrive!")

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 08:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Apr 26 07:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Message-ID: <F257P5o7P6umLrXWq0G0000075e@hotmail.com>

From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>

     "The vessels that follow were converted from LEW's HG2 designs of the 
Grote Clan vessels.  Or created from discussions concerning Grote and ways 
to kill the PC's... I mean make the game more enjoyable."


Ladies and Gentlemen,

     I do hope you enjoy Mr. Spik's masterful MT conversions of two ships 
from a long ago campaign.  I know I have.
     His efforts gave me a new appreciation of MT's ship design rules.  I 
would have never thought it possible to do what he has done.
     For those of you who may be interested, here's a little background on 
the (supposed) thought processes that went into the original designs.

     Both the Trader and Patroller first saw life as Book2 designs.  In the 
case of the Trader, interpolation of the hull and engineering tabels was 
required.  The jump between Book2 and HG2 presented little difficulty.
     The Trader was an attempt to fashion a jump2 Beowulf.  The Patroller 
was an attempt to create a more "manageable" Broadsword.  While both vessels 
"fit" into a Whipsnadian TU, whether they could actually work in other TU's 
is debatable.  You can already see the problems one has recreating them in 
MT terms, whether they can built in FF&S1/2 or GT is unknown.  Indeed, 
whether the Trader can break even in GT:FT is unknown.
     In the few campaigns in which they they appeared, I never bothered to 
fully detail the Black Ships.  The PCs never served aboard one, visited one, 
or saw one, except at a great distance.  The Black Ships were a bit of 
background "chrome", like the omnipresent, but rarely seen, megacorp 
megafreighters.  Mr. Spik's wonderful design for the Black Ships now resides 
permanently on my hard drive and back-up discs.


     Flexiable Batteries

     I should also fill you in on a Whipsnadian house rule regarding 
batteries.  A flexiable battery structure was part of my campaign, 
especially aboard naval and PC-crewed vessels.  Put simply, during each 
combat round similiarly armed turrets could be grouped into batteries as the 
players saw fit.  Thus turrets can be split up into whichever battery 
grouping the PCs deem fit for the situation.  All the laser turrets can be 
consolidated for a better offensive strike or parceled out for more 
anti-missile chances.  You can combine several missile turrets into a more 
powerful salvo or split them into smaller salvos to swamp any anti-missile 
fire.
     In the case of the Outrim Jade, which sports two turrets with 3 beam 
lasers apiece, that vessel could either fire a single battery with an USP 
rating of 5 (6 lasers for 4, with +1 TL13 bonus) or two batteries with USP 
ratings of 4 (3 lasers apiece for 3, with the +1 TL13 bonus).  Obviously the 
missile turrets and sandcasters can be "flexed" in the same manner.
     Software, hardware, and manning requirements for the batteries/turrets 
gets a little squirrelly.  By GM fiat, I simply decreed that naval vessels 
had the software, hardware, and personnel necessary to "flex" their 
batteries into any configuration desired.  Getting the necessary software 
and hardware to do the same was a campaign goal for my PCs.  IIRC, I forced 
the PCs to set aside ~0.25 dT per turret for the mechanical end of things, 
plus another 1 dT on the bridge.
     The software costs were handled by requiring them to purchase all new 
offensive and defensive programming for the weapon types and abilities they 
wished to "flex".  Thus, to flex missile turrets they'd need both a new 
launch and target program.  To add gunner skills to the flexed batteries, a 
new interact program would be required.  To perform flexed anti-missile 
fire, a new program for that.  And so forth.
     Manning requires a bit more explanation.  Obviously, any turret used 
alone requires a gunner.  But only one gunner is needed for any battery.  To 
further confuse matters, any battery consisting of any number of turrets 
could be fired from a specific bridge station by a crewmember dedicated to 
that task for that combat round.
     Taking the Outrim Jade as an example; that vessel has two triple laser 
turrets.  One turret could be fired alone locally or in a battery from 
either the bridge or one of the turrets in that battery.  The gunner 
performing that action would be unable to do anything else during that 
combat round, i.e. DC work.
     This bit of Whipsnadian silliness also allowed the PCs to put gunnery 
skills to better use.  A PC with a high gunnery skill need not be shackled 
to a particular turret.  Instead, she could man a bridge station and take 
command of specific turrets or batteries depending on the situation.  My PCs 
seemed to enjoy the "extra" control in combat situations and it's all about 
having fun, right?

     I'm sure all of this will excite comments, mostly along the lines of 
"You're really #&$@#&$ nuts, Larsen", and I look forward to hearing them.  
Unfortunately, I will be away until late Sunday on business.  If your 
comments go unremarked over the next 72 hours, that is the reason why.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 09:12:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 08:12:44 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020425223624.044bbc10@rollanet.org>
References: <F182WZbQLbzjADMBLxt00008700@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426075429.009ed120@mindspring.com>

At 10:49 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
> From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry 
> (copyright 1968)
>
>     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
> only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
> goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
> Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer."

An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS.

Of course, it goes along nicely with ST's socialist view.. in the Soviet 
military all the technical jobs were held by officers.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 09:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 26 08:53:04 2002
Subject: Ship's weapons (was Re: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?)
Message-ID: <12b.105c4b92.29fad1cc@aol.com>

--part1_12b.105c4b92.29fad1cc_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 4/26/02 2:10:03 AM Central Daylight Time, several 
anti-Meson opinions get flexed:
> 
> > I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
> > really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.
> 

That is a pretty good question, isn't it?  
   In its nondestructive form, it can be manipulated to be used as both an 
undetectable _and_ unjammable communications source, while in its _far_ more 
popular (and destructive) application, it can be manipulated in such a way as 
to entirely _bypass_ an otherwise solid hull to magically cause explosions 
_inside_ a target.
   The entire "it just does" concept (talk about handwaving) associated with 
Meson Technology has never sat right with me, and I've never used it IMTU.
   So the above question, along with several different takes on Starship 
Combat and weaponry on the web, got me to wondering about just _what_ 
technologies (whether canon or not) folks use or don't use.
   Illuminate me :)

  -Ken Murphy-
   
"When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer 
for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out 
of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God 
Almighty have mercy on you!" 

Legion of the Damned
Sven Hassel   


--part1_12b.105c4b92.29fad1cc_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/26/02 2:10:03 AM Central Daylight Time, several anti-Meson opinions get flexed:
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BR>&gt; I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
<BR>&gt; really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>That is a pretty good question, isn't it? &nbsp;
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;In its nondestructive form, it can be manipulated to be used as both an undetectable _and_ unjammable communications source, while in its _far_ more popular (and destructive) application, it can be manipulated in such a way as to entirely _bypass_ an otherwise solid hull to magically cause explosions _inside_ a target.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">The entire "it just does" concept (talk about handwaving) associated with Meson Technology has never sat right with me, and I've never used it IMTU.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;So the above question, along with several different takes on Starship Combat and weaponry on the web, got me to wondering about just _what_ technologies (whether canon or not) folks use or don't use.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Illuminate me :)
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR><P ALIGN=CENTER>"When I say, 'Fetch beer!' you'll put your pennies together and pick up beer for Tiny. If I only get enough beer I'll be silky as a kitten. But if I'm out of beer" - he made a long pause and looked around him ominously - "may God Almighty have mercy on you!" 
<BR><P ALIGN=LEFT>
<BR>Legion of the Damned
<BR>Sven Hassel &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></P></P></FONT></HTML>

--part1_12b.105c4b92.29fad1cc_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 10:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Apr 26 09:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Assumptions in Piracy Exercise (With my Jump Durat ion rules reiterated)
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8B@KARPAD01>
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B8B@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <m3d6wmv36q.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> Downsides to my interpretation?  None that I can think of.

I like it in many ways, but it does means that a certain element of
adventure is removed.  That is, imagine that the Flying Wallenda is
fleeing Glisten with a jump-capable patrol boat just behind.  The
Wallenda makes it to 100D and jumps.  The patrol boat--knowing where
the Wallenda is jumping--makes the same jump, and they come out of
J-space at the same time.

Whereas in the traditional interpretation, they come out several hours
apart from one another in the average case.  Which is not a bad thing
for the Wallenda.

-- 
<+>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 10:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Apr 26 09:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
In-Reply-To: <F257P5o7P6umLrXWq0G0000075e@hotmail.com>
References: <F257P5o7P6umLrXWq0G0000075e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m38z7av321.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>      Flexiable Batteries

Brilliant!  I love it.  This should become part of canon, methinks.

-- 
<+>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 10:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 09:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1019839692.4851.ajackson@ping>

Frank Pitt writes:
> 
> Oh, I don't know. If I was "in the field" I would be more
> concerned about my personal survival than the rest of the unit,
> and if the others were smokers that makes them bigger targets
> than I, presumably increasing my chances of survival!

Nah.  Increasing your chances of becoming collateral damage of shooting at
them.
> 
> I always remember the surprise I got when it was demonstratd to
> me that a person taking even a clandestine puff on a
> hand-shielded cigarette can be seen from over 2kms with the naked
> eye in the dark. The flare of a lit match is even more visible.

Interesting.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 11:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 10:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
References: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFIHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <3CC988C2.7060505@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Frank Pitt wrote:

> Oh, I don't know. If I was "in the field" I would be more
> concerned about my personal survival than the rest of the unit,
> and if the others were smokers that makes them bigger targets
> than I, presumably increasing my chances of survival!
> <grin>

Only if the other side are snipers and not arty, or air support.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 11:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Apr 26 10:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
Message-ID: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>

> From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:20:51 -0500
> Subject: [TML] second verse same as the first Chameleon
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>
> --Message-Boundary-8302
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-disposition: inline
> Content-description: Attachment information.
>
> The following section of this message contains a file attachment

Shadowcat,

Please stop sending attachements. It fucks up the digest. If the file
you are sending is plain text the easiest way for it to be viewable
by all is to "copy all" from the source file and "paste" into the body 
of the email. If your source file is a binary it shouldn't be sent to
the mailing list at all.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 12:14:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Apr 26 11:14:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEJGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>You going to sue them in every jurisdiction that has the incoorect
>entry in the database showing you as an "undesirable"? That's going to
>take a lot of money, and, more importantly a lot of *time*, as you'll
>have to be present at the trial *there*.

That's why we have class actions and contingency fee arrangements.  Whoever
gets misidentified first, please call me.  I'm pretty well connected to both
the police abuse and class action bars.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 12:36:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Fri Apr 26 11:36:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: stewards
In-Reply-To: <20020426125234.A14613@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0204262034490.309178-100000@svati>

On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

>Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>> How about having her insist she requires a single occupancy
>> stateroom in order to tend a proper herb garden and keep other
>> supplies and/or tools to hand?  Of course, that garden will require
>> PRECISE enviromental and gravimetric parameters.  Not to mention the
>> constant risk of possible allergens from all those plants wafting
>> their way through the ventilation system...
>
>Oy!  Stop giving my GM nasty ideas!

No, no Mr. Whipsnade! Don't listen to Tim, hsi GM likes the nasty
ideas :-)

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 12:40:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri Apr 26 11:40:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
In-Reply-To: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEINDMAA.tml@downport.com>

He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't even know
it was happening. To fix the problem we are posting his ships on a web site
and he will just post the URL. If he can get GTS and Pegasus both to
cooperated, he may post plain text in the body of his messages. Here is the
URL again:

http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd

More GT ships and a load of High Guard designs are uploading... oop, done!
_____________________________________________
The Traveller Web Portal
http://www.downport.com
webmaster@downport.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of David Shayne
> Shadowcat,
>
> Please stop sending attachements.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 13:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Fri Apr 26 12:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
Message-ID: <l03010d02b8ef54d1ed86@[206.224.92.67]>

Two items I thought the folks here might be interested in:

The GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set:

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/anniversaryset/

And the 25th anniversary limited edition hardback: Only one press run,
limited to pre-orders. The cover is black bonded leather, foil stamped with
the Traveller 25th-anniversary seal. A special full-color art page is bound
into the front with the signatures.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/core/

You can make reservations for the hardback for the three weeks prior to its
release, contact orders@sjgames.com for details and an estimated date of
publication.



Loren Wiseman
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/
     SJ Games
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 13:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Apr 26 12:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
References: <20020426190109.0A0CC279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CC9A9F9.B79CECC2@ameritech.net>




> From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>

> Subject: RE: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
> Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:38:25 -0400
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't even know
> it was happening. To fix the problem we are posting his ships on a web site
> and he will just post the URL. 

An admirable solution.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 14:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Apr 26 13:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1019852076.0.55530000@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Frankie posted:
>
> Deciding this could keep the US legislators busy for many months.
>
> What a great idea this is, they could then start funding
> hospitals with a tax on hospital dramas, and police forces with a
> tax on police shows, and prisons with a tax on the Sopranos, and
> mental institutions with a tax on "Fraser" (or perhaps any sitcom
> for that matter, and those reality TV shows to boot).

Personally, I'd like to see our wonderfully competent and effective Congress have their salaries tied to taxes received from their episodes on C-SPAN.

The thought of them having to come up with ways to capture and hold the common person's interest in Congressional legislative activities that Congress really doesn't want general oversight on tickles me to no end.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 15:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 14:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
In-Reply-To: <l03010d02b8ef54d1ed86@[206.224.92.67]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426145538.009eabf0@mindspring.com>

At 02:07 PM 4/26/02 -0500, you wrote:
>The GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set:
>
>http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/anniversaryset/
>
>And the 25th anniversary limited edition hardback: Only one press run,
>limited to pre-orders. The cover is black bonded leather, foil stamped with
>the Traveller 25th-anniversary seal. A special full-color art page is bound
>into the front with the signatures.

Argh.  You would put this out two weeks after I go on disability.

Anyway, trying to justify buying three products I already own to my wife 
would result in temperatures similar to those found on Pluto.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 16:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 15:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEINDMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426150540.009fcec0@mindspring.com>

At 02:38 PM 4/26/02 -0400, you wrote:
>He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't even know
>it was happening. To fix the problem we are posting his ships on a web site
>and he will just post the URL. If he can get GTS and Pegasus both to
>cooperated, he may post plain text in the body of his messages. Here is the
>URL again:
>
>http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd
>
>More GT ships and a load of High Guard designs are uploading... oop, done!

Very nice!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 16:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 15:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
References: <l03010d02b8ef54d1ed86@[206.224.92.67]>
Message-ID: <3CC9DB27.6010501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Loren Wiseman wrote:

> http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/core/

Am I the only one here who went 'All RIGHT! A Core sourcebook!' only to 
be dissapointed?

(I mean the leather-bound 25th anniversary one was the first Kewl thing, 
right?)

No offense Loren, but for a moment, I thought 'The richest, most 
powerful worlds in the Imperium...it's very *heart* ... what a place!'

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 17:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Apr 26 16:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426145538.009eabf0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CC9DCEE.8BAC6647@mindspring.com>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 02:07 PM 4/26/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >The GURPS Traveller 25th Anniversary Set:
> >
> >http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/anniversaryset/
> >
> >And the 25th anniversary limited edition hardback: Only one press run,
> >limited to pre-orders. The cover is black bonded leather, foil stamped with
> >the Traveller 25th-anniversary seal. A special full-color art page is bound
> >into the front with the signatures.
>
> Argh.  You would put this out two weeks after I go on disability.
>
> Anyway, trying to justify buying three products I already own to my wife
> would result in temperatures similar to those found on Pluto.
>
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Don't justify, rationalize. If that doesn't work swoon a little, then make her
go whoo-whoo. Works like a charm. ;)


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon compounds.
Biochemistry is the study of carbon compounds that crawl.
                                 -Mike Adams



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Apr 26 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Message-ID: <16f.cbfbaed.29fb394e@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>>     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>> only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
>> goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
officer."
>
>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
TOS.

Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 18:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Apr 26 17:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEINDMAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <3CC98EE2.1F6EB203@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <3CCA95A1.17493.79C160@localhost>

On 26 Apr 2002 at 14:38, Swordy wrote:

> He has stopped. His Pegasus client was the culprit, so he didn't
> even know it was happening. 

Interesting. I use Pegasus and haven't had any complaints about that 
sort of thing. I found it really easy to turn off all the non 7-bit 
ASCII stuff.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 18:54:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri Apr 26 17:54:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Bruce Johnson writes:
>Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here,
>comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.
>
>You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via
>your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of
>false positives and false negatives.
>
>That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously,
>which means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched
>erroneously.

OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics, so
please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the odds
that the system will think I am? And if I am in the database, what are the
odds that the system will fail to recognize me?



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 19:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri Apr 26 18:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
In-Reply-To: <20020426070904.349CA27AFF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270302500.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Matthew Bond writes:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>
>>That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
>>emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.
>
>And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that IMTU
>while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
>calculable duration.

Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_ TU,
but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the OTU.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 19:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri Apr 26 18:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
References: <20020425052154.B00C227A9C@mail.travellercentral.com> <3CC7EA4A.42FD5C19@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CC9FD69.B9D10187@premier.net>


David Smart wrote:
> 
> Would anyone happen to have any T4 designs for
> very, very large capital ships?
> 
> I'm talking big honkin' battlewagons with _serious_
> spinal mounts.
> 
> I'd appreciate a copy if anyone wouldn't mind
> sharing.
> 
> By the by, I receive only the digest version of the
> TML so please send any attachments directly to me.

I forwarded copies of three TL-15 battleships to David Smart. 
_Montana_, a 500,000 dton NPAW-armed ship; _Jean Bart_, a meson-armed
variant of _Montana_; and _Shiva_, a 1,000,000 dton NPAW-armed
behemoth.  All of these ships have been posted to the TML in the past.

Now, does anyone want me to repost them to the list?  Alternately, does
anyone simply want a copy sent to them?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 19:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Apr 26 18:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020427114011.A16950@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics,
> so please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the
> odds that the system will think I am?

That depends upon the threshold they set, the lighting conditions, the
degree of similarity you have to the closest people in the database,
what you're wearing around your head and/or face, whether you've got a
cold (or whether the people in the database had one!), and many other
factors.  Then add in the probability that your image is in the
database by mistake.

You could think of 4% as being the *minimum* chance you'll be
misidentified as a miscreant.


> And if I am in the database, what are the odds that the system will
> fail to recognize me?

See all of the above, and add in whether you're actually trying to
avoid detection.  If it's raining, water on the face is probably an
excellent way to throw off feature detection; most contour-detection
systems respond *very* badly to having numerous glints in the salient
regions.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 21:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Apr 26 20:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Kewl Stuff
In-Reply-To: <3CC9DCEE.8BAC6647@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426145538.009eabf0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426200839.009f7940@mindspring.com>

At 07:04 PM 4/26/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Don't justify, rationalize. If that doesn't work swoon a little, then make her
>go whoo-whoo. Works like a charm. ;)

Remember that I'm currently writing.. this means that our office is covered 
in piles of books, notes, and things labeled "Do not move this! Penalty is 
death or six hours of Dylan on the stereo! - The Genius"  The monitor has 
about three dozen cryptic Post-It notes with things like "D. Colhoun - 
stats? b-date?"  "Template for Flor." and "Rewrite K, L and M" (which is 
amusing when asked me why I was re-writing three Muni Metro lines.. )Also, 
her time on the computer is being interrupted by me racing in from  other 
rooms shouting "Start Word!  Move!  Must write sidebar!"  (Most of the time 
I get these bursts of inspiration in the shower...)

In short, her tolerance of GURPS, Traveller, and me are at low points right 
now.  :)

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                    - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 22:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Apr 26 21:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Assumptions in Piracy Exercise
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270302500.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <001d01c1eda0$cf53a400$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 2:11 AM
Subject: [TML] Re: Assumptions in Piracy Exercise


> Matthew Bond writes:
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> >
> >>That may be what you are aiming for. But given the uncertainty in jump
> >>emergence times, that cutter could be a *long* ways off.
> >
> >And if you had read my earlier posts on Jump times, you would know that
IMTU
> >while Jump durations are variable, any given jump has a predictable and
> >calculable duration.
>
> Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
> from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_ TU,
> but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the OTU.

Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump Duration
is unknowable until immediately prior to exit. And remember that DGP is not
Official Canon.

I can find no such reference in the books I find close to hand: Bk2, Bk5,
Gurps:Traveller... only a reference to the fact that jumps take respectively
1 week, 150-175 hours, and 168 hours +/- 0 to 10%...

And indeed, IMTU Jump duration is variable around 1 week. So show me where I
contradict canon. Just because my *interpretation* of the canon does not
coincide with yours does not necessarily mean that mine is any less valid,
even if many others share your view.

And in any case, the OTU explicitly includes piracy so surely any
interpretation of canon that aids in the existence of piracy must therefore
be welcomed with open arms under your apparent criteria for valid
discussion.

And If it transpires there is an explicit canon dictum that invalidates my
interpretation, then I offer my most profuse apologies for sullying the
value of this debate to you as a result of my asking how piracy could be
eradicated in my apparently perverse aberration of a traveller universe. I
will then henceforth only regale the list with verbatim quotation of
scripture^H^H^H^H canon no matter how internally inconsistent it may be! The
Gospel according to the Saint Marc is the very Word of God revealed to us
and I shall blaspheme no more...

Or not.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 22:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 21:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b8ee2476727f@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20426.212105.4Q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 2:35 PM -0400 4/25/02, Mark Urbin wrote:
>>Follow it with a 1% tax on art books, art supplies, and the sale of 
>>art (records, tapes, movie tickets, paintings, etc.) to fund federal 
>>art projects.
>
> I'm not sure these sort of things are such a bad idea.  It would tie 
> the projects in better with their constituencies.  For example, the 
> SF tax would give NASA funding from a source that puts a priority on 
> its activities and give those who are interested in space research 
> more results.  (And people are more tolerant of taxes that go to 
> specific things they support).

And just *how* long do you think it'd be before the money was diverted
to pet projects of influential Congress critters?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Apr 26 23:01:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 22:01:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <20426.212031.6T4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has proposed a
>> plan
>> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
>> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
>> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
>> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
>> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
>> to "space,
>> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
>
> Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want to help make
> those dreams come true.

Then why is the money going to NASA?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 00:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Apr 26 23:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <20020426080850.A14241@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20426.224425.6p0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Actually, it's the method ised by floppy *and* hard disk controllers
>> for just about everything. GCR and all the rest of that was only used
>> by Apple and Commodore.
>
> Yes, and wasn't even used in the Commodore Amiga.  It *could* read and
> write GCR, but at single density.  (The GCR encoding method looks
> better on paper, 4 bits out of 5, but is inherently lower-density for
> a given magnetic coercivity of medium.)
>
>
>> No, at the *hardware* level, it's still sectors and tracks.
>
> Not even that: at the *hardware* level, it's a sequence of magnetic
> polarity changes.  Software (or firmware) groups them into sectors and
> tracks.  The Amiga didn't have a firmware sector decoder; it read
> tracks in as '0' for no polarity change at the appropriate time, and
> '1' if there was.  The MFM decoding, sector recognition, and error
> checking was done in software -- by the CPU normally, but I wrote a
> driver that used the "Agnes" GPU instead.

Well, the FM/MFM decoding is part of the FDC *chip* ever since the WD
1771 chip in 1977.

>> *If* Commodore had used FM and MFM encoding on the disks, rather than
>> GCR (basicly a different way of modulating the signal that represents
>> the bitstream on the media), then all it'd take to read a C-64 disk on
>> a PC would be some fancy software. 
>
> As it is, most modern FDD controllers have MFM decoding and sector
> recognition in firmware or hardware, so you can't do GCR reading
> without changing chips.  However: there are software tricks by which
> you can read *most* low-density GCR in an MFM drive (as in recover 90%
> or so of the bits) so long as the drive hardware isn't too "smart" and
> refuses to read what it thinks is a damaged sector.  Lower-density GCR
> comes out with a predictable pattern of bits after MFM 'decoding'.
> The only problem is loss of synchronization in low-quality drives.

Well, as I noted, I have an old CopyIIPC option board. It goes between
the drive and the FDC board.

> I believe the Mac uses variable-speed drive hardware as well as GCR,
> so this trick won't work with Mac disks.  (At least, they did 10 years
> ago when I last played around with these things!)

Well, as I recall, the CopyIIPC board can read Macs somehow.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 03:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Apr 27 02:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk> <20020427114011.A16950@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <003601c1edd1$23d16dc0$3d9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


>
> See all of the above, and add in whether you're actually trying to
> avoid detection.  If it's raining, water on the face is probably an
> excellent way to throw off feature detection; most contour-detection
> systems respond *very* badly to having numerous glints in the salient
> regions.
>

The way a person moves is as distinctive as a fingerprint. Visual systems
exist that can identify a person by their biomechanics, with about the same
failure rate.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 04:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Apr 27 03:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <003601c1edd1$23d16dc0$3d9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020425183521.67AB127B00@mail.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk> <20020427114011.A16950@freeman.little-possums.net> <003601c1edd1$23d16dc0$3d9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020427203514.D17780@freeman.little-possums.net>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> The way a person moves is as distinctive as a fingerprint. Visual
> systems exist that can identify a person by their biomechanics, with
> about the same failure rate.

It seems much progress has been made in the last year or so, then.
The most recent time I looked at them, they required sensors or
reflectors to be attached at defined positions on the body for any
reasonable rate of success at all.  Has that requirement been
eliminated?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 05:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 04:12:02 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
Message-ID: <d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163@aol.com>

--part1_d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 4/26/02 11:16:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gridlore@mindspring.com writes:


> At 10:49 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry 
> > (copyright 1968)
> >
> >     "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
> > only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
> > goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
> > Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
> officer."
> 
> An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
> TOS.
> 
> Of course, it goes along nicely with ST's socialist view.. in the Soviet 
> military all the technical jobs were held by officers.
> 
> 

I disagree that the use of the titles "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS implies 
that there were enlisted personnel on the Constitution class starships of 
that era. Roddenberry said in the book cited earlier that there were no 
enlisted onboard the ENTERPRISE. The references to "yeoman" and "chief" 
probably meant the jobs they held aboard the ENTERPRISE rather than their 
actual rank. 

Let us not forget that in the context of TOS we are talking about 
approximately I believe 12 to 13 ships with crews between 200 to 430 
personnel, upward to 5,000 + personnel out of an organization that was 
staffing assumedly a fleet of support ships and a dozen or more full service 
bases, and according to one TOS episode up to 1,000 outposts and/or space 
stations. As pointed out earlier, the ENTERPRISE and her sister ships were 
supposed to be the elite of the elite. I do not find it unbelievable that we 
would have strictly "commissioned officers" staff such vessels under those 
conditions. Lets look at Chief O'Brien too, he did not become and official 
enlisted man until he stepped down from his vaulted position on the 
ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on Deep Space Nine. Now admittedly there is 
nothing canon saying that a person can move between so-called enlisted 
positions and commissioned officers positions during their career (although 
it even happens in real life - I new a guy in Korea that was a captain in the 
army reserve, went active as noncommissioned officer) but if only the best 
are crewing the starships, then maybe a person in the enlighted 24th century 
Starfleet could have the extra prestige of being "commissioned" when in space 
but "enlisted" when assigned to mundane duties station or planet side. 

Who knows? I certainly do not, but I resist the natural tendency to 
automatically assume that Starfleet is a 19th/20th century military 
bureaucracy and not a fluid, enlightened civil service organization that 
celebrates diversity and individual accomplishment. 


Bob Range
"The Human Adventure is just beginning." Gene Roddenberry, 1979

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 4/26/02 11:16:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gridlore@mindspring.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">At 10:49 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
<BR>&gt; From THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, by Stephen E. Whitfield &amp; Gene Roddenberry 
<BR>&gt; (copyright 1968)
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
<BR>&gt; only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
<BR>&gt; goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
<BR>&gt; Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer."
<BR>
<BR>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS.
<BR>
<BR>Of course, it goes along nicely with ST's socialist view.. in the Soviet 
<BR>military all the technical jobs were held by officers.
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>I disagree that the use of the titles "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS implies that there were enlisted personnel on the Constitution class starships of that era. Roddenberry said in the book cited earlier that there were no enlisted onboard the ENTERPRISE. The references to "yeoman" and "chief" probably meant the jobs they held aboard the ENTERPRISE rather than their actual rank. 
<BR>
<BR>Let us not forget that in the context of TOS we are talking about approximately I believe 12 to 13 ships with crews between 200 to 430 personnel, upward to 5,000 + personnel out of an organization that was staffing assumedly a fleet of support ships and a dozen or more full service bases, and according to one TOS episode up to 1,000 outposts and/or space stations. As pointed out earlier, the ENTERPRISE and her sister ships were supposed to be the elite of the elite. I do not find it unbelievable that we would have strictly "commissioned officers" staff such vessels under those conditions. Lets look at Chief O'Brien too, he did not become and official enlisted man until he stepped down from his vaulted position on the ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on Deep Space Nine. Now admittedly there is nothing canon saying that a person can move between so-called enlisted positions and commissioned officers positions during their career (although it even happens in real life - I new a guy in Korea that was a captain in the army reserve, went active as noncommissioned officer) but if only the best are crewing the starships, then maybe a person in the enlighted 24th century Starfleet could have the extra prestige of being "commissioned" when in space but "enlisted" when assigned to mundane duties station or planet side. 
<BR>
<BR>Who knows? I certainly do not, but I resist the natural tendency to automatically assume that Starfleet is a 19th/20th century military bureaucracy and not a fluid, enlightened civil service organization that celebrates diversity and individual accomplishment. 
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Brush Script" LANG="0"><I>Bob Range</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="BernhardFashion BT" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Brush Script" LANG="0">"The Human Adventure is just beginning." Gene Roddenberry, 1979</I></FONT></HTML>

--part1_d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 05:15:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat Apr 27 04:15:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest (yes, just the digest!)
In-Reply-To: <20020425183523.109AF27990@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c1eddc$a474f180$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

The digest is back to not doing anything to MIME'd messages. I've noticed a
few coming through with all the HTML in it, but recently a couple of
messages have come through with attachments encoded so comprehensively that
the message is incomprehensible.

As an example, here's a message from Shadowcat that I've just come across
from in the digest...

> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #443 - 23 msgs
<Snip>
> Message: 18
> From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:12:24 -0500
> Subject: [TML] whoops, heres the ship
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> Content-description: Mail message body
>
>
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736
> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-disposition: inline
> Content-description: Attachment information.
>
> The following section of this message contains a file attachment
> prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.
> If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system,
> you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.
> If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.
>
>    ---- File information -----------
>      File:  TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class Commerce Raider.htm
>      Date:  20 Mar 2001, 21:38
>      Size:  4748 bytes.
>      Type:  HTML-text
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736
> Content-type: Text/HTML; name="TL12 800-ton Chameleon-class
> Commerce Raider.htm"
> Content-disposition: attachment; filename="TL12 800-ton
> Chameleon-class Commerce Raider.htm"
> Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64
>
> PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcm
> Fuc2l0aW9u

<Snipped lots of BASE64 encoded stuff>

> eXJpZ2h0IKkgMjAwMCBieSBDVCBDb252ZXJzaW9uDQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo=
>
> --Message-Boundary-3736--
>

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi                      AndyLong@BigPond.com
 United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
                                +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 05:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat Apr 27 04:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Missed digest No. 438
Message-ID: <000701c1eddf$23468a80$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

Could some friendly soul please send me a copy of digest number 438?

Thanks in advance, Andy

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi                      AndyLong@BigPond.com	   	
 United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
                                +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Smells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204260858570.8355-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10204250905280.28896-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <3CCA8AF0.23335.3C507B0@localhost>

<snip>
>  Policing the area is a problem for cig smokers. The cigar smokers I knew
> would save the stub. Don'T remember the correct word. I smoked a pipe and
> all I needed to do was spead and cover the ash.

The word for the remains at the bottom of the pipe is "dottle".

Sinbad Sam
Former Pipe Smoker

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 11:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 10:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <b9.1fb0d3cc.29fc3384@aol.com>

John Groth writes:

>I forwarded copies of three TL-15 battleships to David Smart. 
>_Montana_, a 500,000 dton NPAW-armed ship; _Jean Bart_, a meson-armed
>variant of _Montana_; and _Shiva_, a 1,000,000 dton NPAW-armed
>behemoth.  All of these ships have been posted to the TML in the past.
>
>Now, does anyone want me to repost them to the list?  Alternately, does
>anyone simply want a copy sent to them?

And disrupt the TML's carefully smothered signal-to-noise ratio? Are you Mad?

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 14:24:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Apr 27 13:24:06 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <d6.15b1efb6.29fbe163@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/27/02 4:11 AM, Olegamer@aol.com at Olegamer@aol.com wrote:
(Note:  I had to de-style this text, so quoting is ugly.  Please use plain
text on this list)


<quote>
I disagree that the use of the titles "Yeoman" and "Chief" in TOS implies
that there were enlisted personnel on the Constitution class starships of
that era. Roddenberry said in the book cited earlier that there were no
enlisted onboard the ENTERPRISE. The references to "yeoman" and "chief"
probably meant the jobs they held aboard the ENTERPRISE rather than their
actual rank. 
</quote>

I think that is should be remembered that Roddenberry came out of
commercial aviation IIRC.  An airliner, or a modern spacecraft is a very
different beast than a long duration exploration and paramilitary craft.
The 'enlisted' part of the crews in each essentially stay on the ground
while the officer pilots operate the vessel on short term flights.

I think RAH got it right when he used his own naval background is laying out
the crew structure of a star ship.  It more correctly reflects the type of
personnel and their duties aboard ship.

One also has to consider that Hollywood is a very different place.  Their
understanding of 'rank' is pretty detached from the real world.  After all,
while a directory may 'command' a TV program or movie, a 'star' can derail
to whole process if he or she doesn't get what they want.  So there's a
built in fiction that everybody is equally important and necessary, and that
no one is really above someone else (excluding extras, of course, who aren't
really people anyway)

<quote>
Let us not forget that in the context of TOS we are talking about
approximately I believe 12 to 13 ships with crews between 200 to 430
personnel, upward to 5,000 + personnel out of an organization that was
staffing assumedly a fleet of support ships and a dozen or more full service
bases, and according to one TOS episode up to 1,000 outposts and/or space
stations. As pointed out earlier, the ENTERPRISE and her sister ships were
supposed to be the elite of the elite.
</quote>

Why is this germane?  The SAS, Delta Force and other military elite units
are the creme de la creme of their respective armies.  They still reflect
the same rank structure as the military at large.  True, there are no
privates, but the enlisted still make up the majority of these units and do
the actual real work.

I think that al lot of this confusions is caused by most civilians view NCOs
and enlisted as 'not as good as' officers.  They don't understand the
difference between the two and their roles. Civilians, when they picture
themselves in uniform, almost invariably see themselves as officers.  The
truth is that many wouldn't like it.  My own experience is that as an
officer, you miss out on a lot of the 'fun'.  You are now an planner,
administrator and manager once you get past the lowest ranks.  The Buck
sergeants, corporals and specialists get to do all the fun stuff like shoot
the machine guns, pull the cannon lanyards and such  You never see Rambo or
those other elite commando types doing paperwork, writing evaluations and
all that crap.  Stuff I spent a lot of time doing after I was comissioned.

<quote>
I do not find it unbelievable that we would have strictly "commissioned
officers" staff such vessels under those conditions. Lets look at Chief
O'Brien too, he did not become and official enlisted man until he stepped
down from his vaulted position on the ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on
Deep Space Nine. 
</quote>

Again, I think this show a misunderstanding of what officers actually do in
the service (The exception being pilots, although the Army has Warrant
Officers for that.)  And I recall at least on episode of TNG, "Drumhead"
that involved the court martial of an enlisted crewman of the Enterprise, so
there must be some enlisted.

<quote>
Now admittedly there is nothing canon saying that a person can move between
so-called enlisted positions and commissioned officers positions during
their career (although it even happens in real life - I new a guy in Korea
that was a captain in the army reserve, went active as noncommissioned
officer) 
</quote>

This has to do with how long the person had been inactive.  When I was in
the 104th TNG, we has a lot of Drill Sergeants who were former officers
during Vietnam who got back into the reserves to earn those pensions.

<quote>
but if only the best are crewing the starships, then maybe a person in the
enlighted 24th century Starfleet could have the extra prestige of being
"commissioned" when in space but "enlisted" when assigned to mundane duties
station or planet side.
</quote>

See my comments about elite above.  Why do civilians view officers as being
'better' than enlisted.  They're not.  They just are different.  Someone has
to do the planning, paperwork and administration.  Somebody also has to do
the actual work.  

<quote>
Who knows? I certainly do not, but I resist the natural tendency to
automatically assume that Starfleet is a 19th/20th century military
bureaucracy and not a fluid, enlightened civil service organization that
celebrates diversity and individual accomplishment.
</quote>

I attempt not to gag.  Show me one single large organization that does not
have a rigidly defined hierarchy and still gets anything done.  Particularly
one that operates for long periods of time without interaction with society
at large.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 14:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Apr 27 13:49:02 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3r8l0j2cy.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
> And I recall at least on episode of TNG, "Drumhead" that involved
> the court martial of an enlisted crewman of the Enterprise, so there
> must be some enlisted.

Like so much else in ST, the existence of something as a plot device
in one episode does not mean that in exists at all in any other.  I
believe that the writers took Emerson's dictum a bit too seriously...

-- 
<+> Veni, vidi, vici
    Whinny, weedy, weaky
    Which sounds better?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 15:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Apr 27 14:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <b9.1fb0d3cc.29fc3384@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCENNGNAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Don't you mean noise to signal ration????


jml

And disrupt the TML's carefully smothered signal-to-noise ratio? Are you
Mad?

GC
_______________________________________________
T


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 15:45:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat Apr 27 14:45:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204270248540.9786-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3CCB1CC6.60408@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
>>Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here,
>>comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.
>>
>>You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via
>>your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of
>>false positives and false negatives.
>>
>>That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously,
>>which means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched
>>erroneously.
> 
> 
> OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics, so
> please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the odds
> that the system will think I am? And if I am in the database, what are the
> odds that the system will fail to recognize me?

Same odds, no matter what: 1 in 25.

Leonard posted these numbers earlier, but here goes.

Assumption: you have a population of 10000 people, who may or may not be 
part of a database of 50 bad guys. (0.5% of the population)

4% failure rate means that in 4% of the cases, software fails to 
discriminate properly. (they did not give separate false positive and 
false egative error rates)

If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
member.

10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
correctly ID'ed.

50 bad guys * 0.04 = 2 false negatives in 10,000 examinations. 48 
correctly ID'ed

The only way to decrease the number of innocent people accused is either 
to increase the accuracy or increase the criminal population :-/

Notice, this analysis cannot really show how many criminals you will 
catch, becasue we don't know the distribution of criminals in the 
scanned population.

The above analysis actually assumes that ALL of the criminals in the DB 
are present in the scanned population. You are still id'in nearly one 
innocent person for every criminal caught. 40 vs 48, and 2 got away!

If, as appears to be the case, criminals avoid areas where such 
surveillance occurs, then the ratio of innocent vs criminal ID's goes up.

This system goes into effect...the criminals learn quickly. Say 80% 
start avoiding this area.

That means you're down to 10 crooks in the population. Of these 0.2 will 
get through...it's hard to say, most of the time you'll catch 'em all.

Now you have a ratio of 40 innocents to 10 crooks, you're dealing with 4 
times the innocent population caught in your dragnet.

As you increase the surveillance population, *unless* you increase your 
database correspondingly, you will get fewer and fewer returns for your 
efforts.

If *everyone* is in the database, then you will reduce that ratio 
Innocent:Crook to the error rate of your system.

Alas, increasing that database is far too easy these days...many states 
are using digitized photgraphs on their drivers licenses. In the test 
case in Flroda, when they scanned everyone coming in to Tampa Stadium 
(for the superboowl? The Orange Bowl...some bowl game) they used, as 
their Database, the entire florida drivers license DB.

Instant Police State. Just add technology.

Bruce




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 17:24:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 16:24:10 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
Message-ID: <bc.25ad7503.29fc8cd1@aol.com>

In a message dated 27/04/02 21:28:01 GMT Daylight Time, 
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:


Again, I think this show a misunderstanding of what officers actually do in
the service (The exception being pilots, although the Army has Warrant
Officers for that.)  And I recall at least on episode of TNG, "Drumhead"
that involved the court martial of an enlisted crewman of the Enterprise, so
there must be some enlisted.


A medical technician. Although this implies an enlisted man it is conceivable 
that medical technicians are officers in the ST universe.

Of course this doesn't mean that the whole ST approach to rank isn't a load 
of old dingoes kidneys.

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 18:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Apr 27 17:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3CCB1CC6.60408@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>> Bruce Johnson writes:
>> 
>>>Go back to statistics class. You're performing a single test here,
>>>comparing a face from a camera to a recognition profile in a data base.
>>>
>>>You cannot discriminate member/non-member of the database except via
>>>your test, therefore the 4% failure rate has to include BOTH cases of
>>>false positives and false negatives.
>>>
>>>That means the 4% of the faces scanned will be reported erroneously,
>>>which means that, yes, one in 25 of your population will be matched
>>>erroneously.
>> 
>> 
>> OK, I've forgotten almost everything I ever knew about statistics, so
>> please help me out here. If I'm not in the database, what are the odds
>> that the system will think I am? And if I am in the database, what are the
>> odds that the system will fail to recognize me?
>
> Same odds, no matter what: 1 in 25.
>
> Leonard posted these numbers earlier, but here goes.
>
> Assumption: you have a population of 10000 people, who may or may not be 
> part of a database of 50 bad guys. (0.5% of the population)
>
> 4% failure rate means that in 4% of the cases, software fails to 
> discriminate properly. (they did not give separate false positive and 
> false egative error rates)
>
> If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
> are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
> member.
>
> 10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
> correctly ID'ed.

Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives. 

> 50 bad guys * 0.04 = 2 false negatives in 10,000 examinations. 48 
> correctly ID'ed

> The above analysis actually assumes that ALL of the criminals in the DB 
> are present in the scanned population. You are still id'in nearly one 
> innocent person for every criminal caught. 40 vs 48, and 2 got away!

No, you've IDed 8 1/3 innocent people for each criminal caught. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 18:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Apr 27 17:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <20020427.170606.-112869.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

on 4/27/02 4:11 AM, Olegamer@aol.com at Olegamer@aol.com wrote:
<quote>
I do not find it unbelievable that we would have strictly "commissioned
officers" staff such vessels under those conditions. Lets look at Chief
O'Brien too, he did not become and official enlisted man until he stepped
down from his vaulted position on the ENTERPRISE-D to take a position on
Deep Space Nine. 
</quote>

Well, after a simple web search for startrek enterprise, then a scroll
down to O'Brien, I came up with his stats. It doesn't matter what Gene R.
intended, there were enlisted personnel onboard. See below.

   Miles O`Brien
Chief of Operations  

PERSONNEL FILE: O'Brien, Miles Edward
**Includes summary updates, addenda through SD 52999 (2375) 
Played By: Colm Meany
Rank: Chief petty officer, senior chief specialist
Current assignment: Professor of Engineering, Starfleet Academy;
previously, Chief of Operations, Deep Space Nine
Full Name: Miles Edward O'Brien
Year of birth: September, 2328
Place of birth: Killarney, Ireland, Earth
Parents: Mr. and Mrs. Michael O'Brien (mother died 2368; father remarried
2369)
Marital status: Married Keiko Ishikawa in 2367 in Ten-Forward, U.S.S.
Enterprise
Children: One daughter, Molly, born 2368; a son, Kirayoshi, born 2373
Quarters: Currently relocating to Earth from residence at Deep Space Nine
(several cities under consideration)
Security clearance: Level 1


Starfleet Career Summary 

2345 -- Enrolled in Starfleet Academy.

2346 -- Enlisted as a non-commissioned officer in Starfleet.

2347 -- As young crewman posted to NCC-57295 U.S.S. Rutledge under Capt.
Ben Maxwell, was decorated after clash with Cardassians on Setlik III and
re-assigned by Maxwell as a bridge tactical officer.

2364 -- After serving on two more ships in the last two years,
transferred to new U.S.S. Enterprise under Captain Jean-Luc Picard as
relief flight control officer in command duty division and later as
security in operations division.

2365 -- Re-assigned at chief petty officer rank to Enterprise transporter
chief, usually posted in Transporter Room 3.

2369 -- Accepted offer as chief of operations at Deep Space Nine, onetime
Cardassian mining station, under Cmdr. Ben Sisko.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 20:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Apr 27 19:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stop sending attachements please
Message-ID: <3CCB57F5.D59D4658@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>
>http://www.PocketEmpires.com/fafrhd
>
>>More GT ships and a load of High Guard designs are uploading... oop, >>done!

>Very nice!

Very nice indeed! And a GT version of my Zhilqatij class Strike Cruiser!
Now I feel honored...

"I would like to thank the members of the Academy..."

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: didn't get Digest No 438
Message-ID: <000b01c1ee60$b56ee7a0$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

I have now received copies of this digest. Thank you to all who sent them

Andy

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi                      AndyLong@BigPond.com	  	
 United Arab Emirates   Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
                                +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
In-Reply-To: <20020427.170606.-112869.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c1ee61$8a7d2420$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Well, after a simple web search for startrek enterprise, then a scroll
> down to O'Brien, I came up with his stats. It doesn't matter what Gene R.
> intended, there were enlisted personnel onboard.  ...

And here I thought this was all common knowledge.

Roddenberry intended that all starfleet personel on the Enterprise were
"officers".  While this made no sense at all, this was the stated intention.
This applied through all of TOS and into TNG.

The best example of this was (appropriately enough), Miles O'Brien.

When Colm Meany's character was first introduced in TNG he was an officer
and wore the pips of a Lt on his collar.  This was consistent through the
first 2-3 seasons.

Later, when the post-Roddenberry powers decided to start fleshing out
the character, he was officially named and made enlisted.  (In one
particular episode, the one with Worf's human parents, he is specifically
identified as such.)  O'Brien was enlisted long before he ever transfered
to DS9.  Note that the character was never demoted in a story or
anything, the O'Brien's character was just retroactively "changed" to
have always been enlisted.

So, we are left with the situation that while Roddenberry intended for
only officers to serve aboard the Enterprise, the later powers (Berman?)
decided that the Enterprise should have enlisted personel after all, and
the change was made.

What this all has to do with Traveller, I dunno.  Sorry for wasting
everyone's time, and I am embarrassed to admit this much knowledge of
Star Trek, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:10:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:10:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020427111811.41F13279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Matthew Bond writes:
>From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>>Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
>>from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_ TU,
>>but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the OTU.
>
>Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump Duration
>is unknowable until immediately prior to exit.

It may or may not be known from the moment you enter jump, but it is
implicit in the game mechanic that fixes the jump duration by a single
random die roll that you can't figure it out until it is to late to abort
the jump. Otherwise ships would keep making the calculations (at 20
minutes a pop) until they found a solution that would take them to their
destination in less than the (so-called) average time of 7 days.

>I can find no such reference in the books I find close to hand: Bk2, Bk5,
>Gurps:Traveller... only a reference to the fact that jumps take respectively
>1 week, 150-175 hours, and 168 hours +/- 0 to 10%...

>And in any case, the OTU explicitly includes piracy so surely any
>interpretation of canon that aids in the existence of piracy must therefore
>be welcomed with open arms under your apparent criteria for valid
>discussion.

Of all the pirates that I can recall that the OTU explicitly includes,
none of them make a living preying on interplanetary craft[*]. Even if
your scheme turned out to be workable, it still wouldn't explain the
pirates that (according to the ship encounter tables and various
adventures) lie in wait for PCs when they jump into a system as close to
the mainworld as they can possibly get.

[*] Though I suppose the ones in the character generation tables may.


Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 21:47:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat Apr 27 20:47:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
In-Reply-To: <000a01c1ee61$8a7d2420$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEJLDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Then the whole thing with the yeoman and the captain had nothing to do with
officer/enlisted fraternization? Blows _my_ mind.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mike West
>
> And here I thought this was all common knowledge.
>
> Roddenberry intended that all starfleet personel on the Enterprise were
> "officers".  While this made no sense at all, this was the stated
> intention.
> This applied through all of TOS and into TNG.
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 22:08:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Apr 27 21:08:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Canon and Jump Duration (was Re: Piracy assumptions)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <000e01c1ee6a$4f48ce00$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 4:09 AM
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions


> Matthew Bond writes:
> >From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
> >
> >>Which means that your assumptions as well as any conclusions you derive
> >>from them are only useful for those who uses similar rules in _their_
TU,
> >>but useless for anyone trying to make sense of how things work in the
OTU.
> >
> >Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump
Duration
> >is unknowable until immediately prior to exit.
>
> It may or may not be known from the moment you enter jump, but it is
> implicit in the game mechanic that fixes the jump duration by a single
> random die roll that you can't figure it out until it is to late to abort
> the jump. Otherwise ships would keep making the calculations (at 20
> minutes a pop) until they found a solution that would take them to their
> destination in less than the (so-called) average time of 7 days.

Hence my stating that the roll applies to any jump from point A to Point B
within the next few hours. Astrogation-0 IMTU gives exactly the same result
(Jump Duration unknown until committed to Jump). Astrogation-1 lets the
astrogator see the resulting duration prior to final commitment to jump.
Astrogation 2+ allows the astrogator to calculate jump duration for jumps in
the subsequent (Astrogation Skill)-1 Jump 'windows', where each window
encompasses a few hours.

How about you removing your CanonVision(TM) Blinkers and considering this
variation on Jump Duration and Astrogation on its own merits. Does it
'break' canon? Not particularly IMHO. Does it enhance canon? Well, it
certainly allows Fleets to arrive together... and makes Skilled Astrogators
worth having... both of which I feel are useful.

You seem to feel that being able to calculate a jump duration is
'uncanonical', where all that I can find in canon is that the duration
varies at approximately a week +- 10% or so. Canon doesn't (in the reference
I have to hand anyway) make any comment other than this. It doesn't
explicitly say that two ships jumping from point A to Point B at the same
time make different rolls. Most people seem to assume that this is implied,
but I would simply say that the rules are assuming the players are on a
single ship and are only concerned with their own particular Jump Duration.

If I as GM choose to apply this same time to all ships jumping between the
same two points within a similar timeframe, I am free to do so. I could even
state that a jump between two given systems ALWAYS takes the same time, and
the roll is just to determine this time the first time the players jump
between those two systems. Or I could say that all jumps have random
durations all the time (as you and many others feel is the case). All three
of these options is just as valid in canon, as all canon states is that not
all Jumps take the same time, and that the variation is within set limits
around one week.

Now if you want to persist in deriding me for being 'uncanonical' please
direct me to a valid reference that invalidates my assumptions. It may be
that it is in some supplement or magazine article I do not possess. But just
because it is different to the way you have always done things doesn't
necessarily make it uncanonical, if it covers an aspect of Traveller that is
not explicitly covered by canon.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Apr 27 22:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Kim)
Date: Sat Apr 27 21:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>
References: <20020424063707.194DD27A34@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3CC69CE1.474D7E5A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <p0510150db8f1258b9cb4@[10.0.1.10]>

At 6:54 AM -0500 4/24/02, David Smart wrote:

>An interesting sidenote for Traveller is the experience on one of the
>many
>Apollo flights. Apollo 8, I think. 'Twould seem one of the astronauts
>had
>a bout with some food that didn't agree with him. It hit when they had
>been
>in orbit preparatory to leaving for the moon. No one informed Mission
>Control and they were told to proceed (lose out on going to the moon
>'cause
>of the trots? As if!).

	Frank Borman, the commander of Apollo 8 was violently sick 
early in the mission.  Started throwing up and in the midst of 
retching had massive diarrhea.  Apparently, the cleanup was rather 
unpleasant :).  A big blob of vomit hit Jim Lovell in the chest.

	Borman didn't want to announce to the world over the open 
loop that he had been ill, so they recorded a message on tape that 
got dumped with the spacecraft telemetry.  After the tape had been 
listened to, there was serious discussion of canceling the mission. 
The surgeons were worried that whatever Borman had might be passed to 
the rest of the crew.

	In the end, it was decided to let the mission go through. 
Borman was feeling much better and it was too late to use the Service 
Module's engine to do a direct abort.  No matter what, Apollo 8 was 
going to go around the moon anyway so they might as well wait see how 
everyone was feeling when they went into orbit

	There's a good telling of this event in Chaikin's _A_Man_On_the_Moon_.

Space Nut Justin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 03:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeffrey Malone)
Date: Sun Apr 28 02:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Sickness and the Political Control of Information
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk> <000e01c1ee6a$4f48ce00$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <001301c1ee93$5bbcfd40$4e7354d2@1338700057>

Followers of the TNS may have noted that the story of Jeffrey Long, ace
reporter revealing the truth (?) of Jump Sickness, has appeared in the G:T
timeline.  I have always been of the view that Jump Sickness is probably
more political than physiological in origin.  The reason?  The time edge
that control of a J-6 information network (versus a J-4 or less general
information network for Joe Public) gives any large interstellar state.
Noting that mis-jump may cause an effective jump well beyond J-6 (up to J-30
or J-36, IIRC, depending on rule set), I would wonder whether the average
duration of Jump Sickness is up to the 36 week timeframe.  Requiring the
absolute quarantine of the poor vicitms, I suspect.

The bottom line:  Jump Sickness has more to do with protecting the Imperial
body politic from destabilising uncontrolled information flows, than its
alleged victims.

Comments?

J.M. Malone


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 05:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Apr 28 04:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
Message-ID: <146.da76e8b.29fd3d17@aol.com>

--part1_146.da76e8b.29fd3d17_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 4/27/02 11:10:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mjwest@caddocourt.com writes:


> What this all has to do with Traveller, I dunno.  Sorry for wasting
> everyone's time, and I am embarrassed to admit this much knowledge of
> Star Trek, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.
> 
> Mike West
> 
> 

Thank you Mr. West for imputting your 2 credits, I for one enjoyed the 
clarification. 

Bob Range
aka Olegamer

--part1_146.da76e8b.29fd3d17_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/27/02 11:10:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mjwest@caddocourt.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">What this all has to do with Traveller, I dunno. &nbsp;Sorry for wasting
<BR>everyone's time, and I am embarrassed to admit this much knowledge of
<BR>Star Trek, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.
<BR>
<BR>Mike West
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Thank you Mr. West for imputting your 2 credits, I for one enjoyed the clarification. 
<BR>
<BR>Bob Range
<BR>aka Olegamer</FONT></HTML>

--part1_146.da76e8b.29fd3d17_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 09:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Apr 28 08:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
Message-ID: <200204281505.FEN01862@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Justin Kim <jlkim@mail.com>  
>After the tape had been listened to, there was serious 
>discussion of canceling the mission. 
>The surgeons were worried that whatever Borman had might be 
>passed to the rest of the crew.
>

The Intergalactic Laxative will get you from here to Mars....
________________
NO! Sentence first, verdict after!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 09:18:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Apr 28 08:18:12 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <B8F056DE.58C20%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020428151458.60631.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

I think that al lot of this confusions is caused by
> most civilians view NCOs
> and enlisted as 'not as good as' officers.  They
> don't understand the
> difference between the two and their roles.
> Civilians, when they picture
> themselves in uniform, almost invariably see
> themselves as officers.
Well, this is just my two cents. Officers enjoy more
luxuries than enlisted men and are seen as less
expendable. C'mon , they get paid better get better
jobs and benefits,just better every thing from
uniforms to housing. The requirements are harder too. 
It's no wonder people think this.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 09:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Apr 28 08:42:02 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and
 libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <20020428151458.60631.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8F16629.58CB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/28/02 8:14 AM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> Well, this is just my two cents. Officers enjoy more
> luxuries than enlisted men and are seen as less
> expendable. C'mon , they get paid better get better
> jobs and benefits,just better every thing from
> uniforms to housing. The requirements are harder too.
> It's no wonder people think this.

I suppose so.  Just for the record, officers pay for their own uniforms and
meals. 

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 11:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 10:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
>>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
>>member.
>>
>>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
>>correctly ID'ed.
> 
> 
> Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives. 

Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...

IAC, this only makes my later analysis much worse.

("Oh, waiter! We asked for an order of magnitude here!")

Bruce



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 11:53:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Apr 28 10:53:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Big Brother


> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> >>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you
> >>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a
> >>member.
> >>
> >>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960
> >>correctly ID'ed.
> >
> >
> > Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives.
>
> Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...
>
> IAC, this only makes my later analysis much worse.

Ok, this takes into account any given analysis... so what happens when the
system analyses several frames of the CCTV footage... The chances of the
same Innocent person being repeatedly misidentified as being in the database
surely falls, and similarly the chance of correctly identifying a criminal
as being in the database rises.

If the threshold for flagging a particular person as being worth further
investigation (and I would expect that the first level of investigation is
simply to get a human operator to look at the screen and compare the image
with that in the database...) is set to be say 7+ positives out of 10 frames
analysed, then the system can filter out many of the false positives and
false negatives before raising it to a higher level of investigation.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 12:01:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Sun Apr 28 11:01:08 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
In-Reply-To: <200204281505.FEN01862@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204281059510.9237-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Justin Kim <jlkim@mail.com>  
> >After the tape had been listened to, there was serious 
> >discussion of canceling the mission. 
> >The surgeons were worried that whatever Borman had might be 
> >passed to the rest of the crew.
> >
> 
> The Intergalactic Laxative will get you from here to Mars....

OMG!!!  I know that song!!!

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 12:13:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 11:13:57 2002
Subject: [TML] smells
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10204281059510.9237-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3CCC3B8E.503094B7@premier.net>


Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
<<snip>>

> > The Intergalactic Laxative will get you from here to Mars....
> 
> OMG!!!  I know that song!!!

Ah, so we have at least _two_ Donovan fans on the list....

I saw him live at a bar in Monterey, CA in 1985.  My roommate had a
Donovan concert poster from circa 1967 (IIRC, it was for a Donovan/H.P.
Lovecraft double-bill at the Fillmore West), so I brought it with me (my
roommate being under 21) and got it autographed.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 13:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Apr 28 12:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20020428173927.27A3A27990@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Matthew Bond writes:
>From: "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>>Matthew Bond writes:
>>>Could you please refer me to the explicit canon reference that Jump
>>Duration is unknowable until immediately prior to exit.
>>
>>It may or may not be known from the moment you enter jump, but it is
>>implicit in the game mechanic that fixes the jump duration by a single
>>random die roll that you can't figure it out until it is to late to abort
>>the jump. Otherwise ships would keep making the calculations (at 20
>>minutes a pop) until they found a solution that would take them to their
>>destination in less than the (so-called) average time of 7 days.
>
>Hence my stating that the roll applies to any jump from point A to Point B
>within the next few hours.

Ships getting long jump durations would still have the option of waiting
for the next jump 'window' and try again. This IS an addition to the
canonical jump mechanics. Not to mention that it won't actually help your
pirates much. They'll still have to find a jump window that just happens
to put them in the right spot at the right time. Say the first window
would put them at the intercept spot four hours too late and they
calculate that. So they wait for the next jump window and finds that now
they'll arrive six hours too early. So instead of one chance at really
lousy odds they get six or eight changes at really lousy odds. It's a
gain, but is it enough of a gain?

>Astrogation-0 IMTU gives exactly the same result (Jump Duration unknown
>until committed to Jump). Astrogation-1 lets the astrogator see the
>resulting duration prior to final commitment to jump. Astrogation 2+
>allows the astrogator to calculate jump duration for jumps in the
>subsequent (Astrogation Skill)-1 Jump 'windows', where each window
>encompasses a few hours.

The old 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absense' saw applies to
things that have not been dealt with at length in rules and adventures.
Something like what you can and cannot do with Astrogation skill has been
dealt with in detail and the absence of any mention of such abilities IS
evidence that it doesn't exist. In canon, that is.

>How about you removing your CanonVision(TM) Blinkers and considering this
>variation on Jump Duration and Astrogation on its own merits. Does it
>'break' canon? Not particularly IMHO. Does it enhance canon? Well, it
>certainly allows Fleets to arrive together... and makes Skilled Astrogators
>worth having... both of which I feel are useful.

I presume that you mean that it enhances the roleplaying potential of the
setting, not the canon. Without getting sidetracked into discussing just
how brilliant the idea is, let me say that IMO the prime function of
having a 'continuity bible' for a shared universe is to prevent authors
from messing up the setting by introducing pet ideas that may be perfectly
good ideas in their own right but would contradict previously published
information.

I'm not a fanatic about canon. If Marc came up with an absolutely amazingly
good idea for the Traveller setting that unfortunately required that he edit
out the Ancients retroactively, then I might accept that... if the idea was
truly amazing. But I think the bar is a lot higher when it comes to
contraditing the existing background than when it comes to introducing ideas
about previously untouched territory.

>You seem to feel that being able to calculate a jump duration is
>'uncanonical', where all that I can find in canon is that the duration
>varies at approximately a week +- 10% or so. Canon doesn't (in the reference
>I have to hand anyway) make any comment other than this.

I found a couple last night. On p. 92-93 of _MT:Imperial Encyclopedia_
there is a descrition/Referee's checklist of how to conduct a jump. Step 8
is to engage the jump drive. Step 9 has the ship entering jumpspace
whereupon the referee determines the jump duration. The text does not
indicate whether he informs the players about the duration immediately or
not. However, on p. 66 of _GT:Far Trader_ is an illustration of a crew
lounge during a jump. On the wall is a prominently displayed 'Elapsed jump
time' clock. I think that if the crew knew of the exact time of breakout,
that clock would display 'Time to breakout' instead. (And yes, I know that
illustrations have a lower evidence value than text, but if an
illustration doesn't contradict any text, I consider it valid).

On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of misjump
that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've misjumped as
the time stretches out past the estimated breakout time. If they knew
exactly when they were supposed to emerge, they'd know something was wrong
within a few minutes of passing that time. I _think_ is was somewhere in a
CT book, but I can't recall if it was rules or and adventure. I'll see if
I can dig it up. (If anyone else can provide a reference, please do so).

>If I as GM choose to apply this same time to all ships jumping between the
>same two points within a similar timeframe, I am free to do so. I could even
>state that a jump between two given systems ALWAYS takes the same time, and
>the roll is just to determine this time the first time the players jump
>between those two systems.

Of course you can. It's your universe. But would you be able to do so if
you were writing a Traveller adventure for official publication? I believe
not. (Not that it is my call to make, of course).

>...Or I could say that all jumps have random durations all the time (as
>you and many others feel is the case). All three of these options is just
>as valid in canon, as all canon states is that not all Jumps take the
>same time, and that the variation is within set limits around one week.

Even if that was true (which I don't agree with), only one of those three
options could be true for any particular universe. The moment someone uses
one of the options in an official adventure, BANG!, it's the way things
are, always have been, ad always will be in the OTU.

>Now if you want to persist in deriding me for being 'uncanonical' please
>direct me to a valid reference that invalidates my assumptions.

Well, I don't think I've derided you yet, so I can't persist. But take the
above two references as a start (of references, not of deriding). I'll see
if I can dig up more.

>But just because it is different to the way you have always done things
>doesn't necessarily make it uncanonical,

I agree. I've made mistakes before. I don't think I'm doing it now,
though.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 15:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 28 14:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>
References: <20427.170201.1q4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20020429074417.A25504@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Ok, this takes into account any given analysis... so what happens when the
> system analyses several frames of the CCTV footage... The chances of the
> same Innocent person being repeatedly misidentified as being in the database
> surely falls, and similarly the chance of correctly identifying a criminal
> as being in the database rises.

No.  Repeating the same analysis on slightly different frames merely
spreads the error rates out worse still.

A more detailed analysis: the system is based on a "similarity" score.
In different frames (at different angles, lighting, etc), the score
will vary.  In particular, it will look like a "bell" as the person
being identified passes through their 'best' profile, with a large
amount of noise superimposed on the curve.

This will happen even for people not in the database, since even
innocent people's faces look more like that of a miscreant than the
back of their head does, or their face at a drastically different
angle.

Now, the 4% error quoted is for the best case: a clear shot of the
subject's face under good consistent lighting at about the same angle
as the shots in their database.  


> If the threshold for flagging a particular person as being worth
> further investigation is set to be say 7+ positives out of 10 frames
> analysed, then the system can filter out many of the false positives
> and false negatives before raising it to a higher level of
> investigation.

Unfortunately not.  If you do that, then yes, you drop the chance of
misidentifying an innocent somewhat.  However, you grossly drop the
chance of correctly identifying someone in the database -- you'll
virtually *never* have a full 7 frames with a high score.  So you have
to lower your threshold (a lot), consequently increasing the chance of
misidentifying innocents.  If you do the maths on the identification
curves, you'll see that this always ends up with a worse trade-off
than before.  Although it 'sharpens' the identification curve, it
sharpens the *noise* in the curve even more.


> (and I would expect that the first level of investigation is simply
> to get a human operator to look at the screen and compare the image
> with that in the database...)

This would help, but means you need to employ someone full-time to
compare the images.  Furthermore, there is going to be a large overlap
between what the computer misidentifies and what a human would -- the
suspect and database image do have similar faces, after all.  Humans
aren't known for being that accurate either.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Apr 28 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide
Message-ID: <003501c1eefe$04116fc0$85e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1EF06.32FC43C0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Traveller's Aide #1 seems to be receiving a warm welcome, and several =
more issues are in preparation.=20

However, we're still open to anyone interested in writing future =
volumes.

All Traveller's Aides will be "official" traveller material and thus =
compatible with all versions of the rules. Stats for  T20 and CT are =
included in all. The "Home" setting of T20 is year 1000, which is close =
enough to the late-golden-age CT setting that supplements can be =
compatible with both. We have a wish-list but we're also open to =
suggestions.=20

We particularly need adventures of the LBB sort right now, and these =
need not be set in the T20 "Home" setting of Gateway Domain. I.e. if you =
have an adventure for CT set in the Marches or the Rim, Lishun Sector in =
Year 0, or wherever, we'll consider it.=20

Mail me direct for more details.=20


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Traveller's Aide #1 seems to be =
receiving a warm=20
welcome, and several more issues are in preparation. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>However, we're still open to anyone =
interested in=20
writing future volumes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>All Traveller's Aides will be =
"official" traveller=20
material and thus compatible with all versions of the rules. Stats =
for&nbsp; T20=20
and CT are included in all. The "Home" setting of T20 is year 1000, =
which is=20
close enough to the late-golden-age CT setting that supplements can be=20
compatible with both. We have a wish-list but we're also open to =
suggestions.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We particularly need adventures of the =
LBB sort=20
right now, and these need not be set in the T20 "Home" setting of =
Gateway=20
Domain. I.e. if you have an adventure for CT set in&nbsp;the Marches or =
the Rim,=20
Lishun Sector in Year 0, or wherever, we'll consider it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mail me direct for more details. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1EF06.32FC43C0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 16:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 15:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <013b01c1eedd$bdc87a60$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>
>> >>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you
>> >>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a
>> >>member.
>> >>
>> >>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960
>> >>correctly ID'ed.
>> >
>> >
>> > Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives.
>>
>> Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...
>>
>> IAC, this only makes my later analysis much worse.
>
> Ok, this takes into account any given analysis... so what happens when the
> system analyses several frames of the CCTV footage... The chances of the
> same Innocent person being repeatedly misidentified as being in the database
> surely falls, and similarly the chance of correctly identifying a criminal
> as being in the database rises.

The system *is* analyzing several frame, just to get *usable* data. 

Try a freeze frame on your VCR to see just how *bad* the resolution of
broadcast TV is. CCTV systems aren't any better. You have to
interpolate from several frames just to get enough detail. 

And the given error rate is most definitely *not* from analyzing a
single frame.

> If the threshold for flagging a particular person as being worth further
> investigation (and I would expect that the first level of investigation is
> simply to get a human operator to look at the screen and compare the image
> with that in the database...) is set to be say 7+ positives out of 10 frames
> analysed, then the system can filter out many of the false positives and
> false negatives before raising it to a higher level of investigation.

Again, you are completely off base with regards to how the analysis is
being done. It's *not* matching individual frames against *anything*.
It's using multiple frames to derive enough detauils to *attempt* a match.

It *has* to. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 16:03:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 15:03:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3CCC32EC.2060405@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20428.143242.4c0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>>If you are a member of the DB, you will be falsely ID'd as OK. If you 
>>>are NOT a member of the database, you will be falsely ID'd as being a 
>>>member.
>>>
>>>10000 people * 0.04 = 40 false positives in 10,000 examinations. 9960 
>>>correctly ID'ed.
>> 
>> 
>> Uh... 10,000 * 0.04 = 400 false positives. 
>
> Teach me to do multiplication without a calculator...

It's just been too long since you used a slipstick. Getting the
decimals right there *mattered*. :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 16:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 15:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fellow Travellers in Colorado
Message-ID: <3CCC740B.21C858AD@premier.net>

I'm going to be at Ft. Carson, CO, for a couple of months as I train up
for my upcoming Sinai tour.  According to Eris' TML roster, there are
three TMLers (past or present) in Colorado (John Lambert in Colorado
Springs, and Steve Deemer and Robert Uhl in Denver).

Any others out there?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump Sickness and the Political Control of Information
In-Reply-To: <001301c1ee93$5bbcfd40$4e7354d2@1338700057>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204280444180.21130-100000@ask.diku.dk>
 <000e01c1ee6a$4f48ce00$52200050@matt>
 <001301c1ee93$5bbcfd40$4e7354d2@1338700057>
Message-ID: <m3elgzfn0r.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Jeffrey Malone" <nparker1971@ozemail.com.au> writes:
> 
> The bottom line: Jump Sickness has more to do with protecting the
> Imperial body politic from destabilising uncontrolled information
> flows, than its alleged victims.

I must disagree.  The impression I get from the TNS bulletins is that
jump sickness is denied to exist, due to the additional costs of trade
it would cause, and that Long has proof that it does.  But then, none
of the canon I've to hand mentions it.  Perhaps in some other fragment
it is explained that it is a known risk?

I also don't think that the Imperium would be locking up folks who
misjump great distances.  First of all, canon implies that the risks
of misjump are known both in magnitude and in frequency.  Secondly,
people would surely mention their imprisonment, unless brain-wiped.
Thirdly, how likely is it for an entire ship to be afflicted at once?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The fact that we have bodies is the oldest joke there is.  --C.S. Lewis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:03:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:03:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek Rank Inflation
In-Reply-To: <146.da76e8b.29fd3d17@aol.com>
References: <146.da76e8b.29fd3d17@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3adrnfmzb.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Olegamer@aol.com writes:

Emacs, at least, thinks that you wrote HTML.  Anyone have better
information?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the people of
the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own
arms.                            --Samuel Adams, brewer and patriot

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <m31yczfmrp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>
> Again, you are completely off base with regards to how the analysis
> is being done. It's *not* matching individual frames against
> *anything*.  It's using multiple frames to derive enough detauils to
> *attempt* a match.
> 
> It *has* to. 

Well, it has to unless the authorities mandate that eveyone approach
cameras in such a manner as to make the frames be identical to those
in the database.

`Comrade, approach the camera face-forward and stand still for 12
seconds!'

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
...a language is just an dialect with an army and a navy.
                                --Paul Tomblin, in a.s.r.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:10:04 2002
Subject: Star Trek Rank Inflation (was Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism)
In-Reply-To: <B8F16629.58CB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8F16629.58CB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3662bfmwb.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> I suppose so.  Just for the record, officers pay for their own
> uniforms and meals.

And, at least in the Navy, at least when my father was in, their cooks
as well.  The best at the time were reputed to be Phillipino: not
overly expensive, but with an amazing command of culinary technique.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own
good, in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of
theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it.        --John Stuart Mill

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> 
> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> time.

Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
having an estimated breakout.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
                                                 --Mojo Nixon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk> <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3CCC847F.2ABA2927@premier.net>


"Robert Uhl " wrote:
> 
> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >
> > On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> > misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> > misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> > time.
> 
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

Ah, but passing the normal maximum by any significant amount should
start to worry you, regardless of your pre-calculated jump time.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Apr 28 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0204282014370.1074-100000@ask.diku.dk> <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020429093423.A25777@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
[...suspecting misjump ...]
> Even passing further is no big deal.

Once you've got to the 98th percentile, you'd be having dark
suspicions.  The problem is that if the jump duration is known rather
precisely beforehand, the time between "all's well" and "oh my god,
we've misjumped" is rather too short for mere misgivings.


>  Indeed, without having an idea how long _this particular jump_ will
> be, there's no way of having an estimated breakout.

Of course there's an estimated breakout time: within 10% of 168 hours.
By the time you've reached the 99th percentile of that, the posterior
probability of misjump has increased 100-fold, and starting to look
comparably likely to merely a long but successful jump.

In the 'known duration' case specified, the time interval between the
99th and 100th percentiles for successful jumps is at least two orders
of magnitude shorter -- not enough time for vague suspicions and
speculations throughout the crew.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 17:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Population Modelling
In-Reply-To: <00e801c1cbc7$eea362a0$67da883e@fabian>
Message-ID: <20428.160746.5z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

I was catching up on old posts, and this jumped out at me...

In mail you write:

> As a mathematical exercise, I worked out that, assuming a free movement of
> populations (a false assumption), everyone is descended from everyone as
> of 500 years ago. This is based on teh fact that teh number of ancestors
> doubles every generation, but the total population decreases as you go
> back in time. Working out when teh two numbers are equal is a simple
> exercise...

Actually, there's a hidden assumption in there that destroys the idea.

The number of ancestors doubles each generation back *only* if there
are no common ancestors. With the current "rule" that first cousins
can't marry, but second cousins can, you can have common ancestors 3 or
4 generations back (I can't recall exactly how "second cousin" is
defined). 

Anybody who has done any detailed family trees that go back very far
will run into branches that cross this way.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 19:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Sun Apr 28 18:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <20428.143400.7n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <m31yczfmrp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <005d01c1ef1e$95858f20$9307b286@Shane>

Robert wrote:
> Well, it has to unless the authorities mandate that eveyone approach
> cameras in such a manner as to make the frames be identical to those
> in the database.
>
> `Comrade, approach the camera face-forward and stand still for 12
> seconds!'

You know, it strikes me that (barring Robert's suggestion above) this system
is stupidly easy to evade if you know where the cameras are, or even where
the cameras are likely to be.  Good luck to any system, automated or
otherwise, attempting to get a clear mugshot of someone who is trying not to
be recognized.  I'm not talking about pulling your jacket over your head, or
wearing a balaclava or anything silly like that.  Simply blowing your nose
on a handkerchief as you pass the camera; or looking down to brush something
off your shirt; or turning away to wave goodbye to someone.  There are
dozens of such stunts you can pull, and you can use a different one every
'checkpoint' you pass.  Maybe combine that with taking off your jacket
between checkpoints, and putting it back on after the next one to interfere
with the system identifying you by your clothes.

I think it comes back to the idea that a halfway intelligent criminal who
really doesn't want to be caught generally won't be caught.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- "And you're mo' smarter than the crooks on Miami Vice...
riiiight?"
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 19:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Apr 28 18:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Population Modelling
In-Reply-To: <20428.160746.5z2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <00e801c1cbc7$eea362a0$67da883e@fabian>
Message-ID: <3CCD4F3B.28144.D948ED@localhost>

On 28 Apr 2002 at 16:07, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> The number of ancestors doubles each generation back *only* if there
> are no common ancestors. With the current "rule" that first cousins
> can't marry, but second cousins can, you can have common ancestors 3 or
> 4 generations back (I can't recall exactly how "second cousin" is
> defined). 

Your second cousins are the children of your parents' first cousins.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 21:01:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Sun Apr 28 20:01:19 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
Message-ID: <3CCCB6E8.CF6883B@premier.net>

Yet another cruiser design from AuricTech, _Dido_ is primarily a killer
of smaller vessels, with 20 large NPAW linear bay weapons.

_Dido_, _Dido_ class Light Cruiser (FF&S v2)
Designed by AuricTech Shipyards

Statistics
Tons: 25000std ( SL Short Rnd Cylinder Hypersonic )
Dimensions: 125m x 62.1m x 62.1m
Volume: 350000m3
Mass (L/C): 324434t/311263t
Maintenance Points: 9989
Cargo: 200std (0/8 /Hdl:8x50ton)
Crew: 437/585
Cost: 29263.8 Mcr
Tech Level: 15
Size: 10

Electronics
Controls: Holographic, Standard automation. 24xFltComp (CM:0.2 CP:5.0).
4xFibComp
(CM:0.2 CP:5.0). Terrain following sensors (TF:570, NOE:190). Bridge.
Communications: 4xRadio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 8xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
1xMeson (1,000AU,
5MW).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (14 [50mkm], 0.05MW). 1xAEMS (12.5 [5mkm] LP, 50MW).
12xLIDAR
(15 [2mkm], 2.5MW).
ECM: 1xRadio Jammer (1,000AU, 0.4MW). 1xDecp. Jammer (12, 1.25MW).
1xPas. Jammer
(15, 0.63MW).
Signatures: Vis:-0.5, IR:0 (0 at 50801MW, -0.5 at 8100MW), Act:0, Neu:0,
Grav:2 (Military Black coating, Advanced IR masking, 1 level Stealth,
Neutrino masking)

Weaponry
1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750]
(LR)
20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
(LR)
20 x 15 Mj Quad Laser Turret (+6) 1/4-4-4-4 [4,800/10-10-10-10] (LR)
12xMissile Auto 1/8 ( /Mag:39 /MFD:500,000km) w/40 Cmd DL 1d6/2 6.0G12
1000AU

Additional Fire Control
2xBeam Master Fire Directors (0MW 500,000km)
2xMissile Master Fire Directors (0MW 500,000km)

Performance
4    Jump (2500std/pc fuel)
6/6.2     Maneuver (/Thruster:48265MW)
No Contra-grav
5000kph/5000kph Atmosphere (/Crus:3750kph/3750kph)
6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
10578.9   Fuel (/Scoop:3 /Purif:30,148MW)
580/20/150 Accomodations (Small stateroom/Large stateroom/Emergency Low
berth)
15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations for 600
crew)
6    G-Comp
18   Sandcasters ( /AV:70 /Cans:20)
715  Damper Screen (169MW)
715  Meson Screen (319.516MW)
100 [715] Armor, 52 Structure

Features
250xAirlock
4xDocking Umbilical
1xElectronic Shop (6std ea.)  
1xMachine Shop (10std ea.)    
4xSickbay (8std ea.)     
1xShip's locker (12.5std ea.)
10xArmory (2.14std ea.) (Capacity: 60 each)
6xGym (2.5std ea.)
3xLounge(44std ea.)
1xCIC(44std ea.)
4xOrdinary Galley (Cap:150)
4xFull Galley (Cap:150)       

Small Craft
1xSpacHgr (30std, 1 hatches)
3xDockRing (30std)       

Backups
Sensors: 2xPEMS (13.5 [16mkm]). 2xAEMS (12 [1.6mkm] LP). 24xLIDAR (14.5
[500kkm]).

Power & Fuel: Fusion (1000MW).
Crew Details
7 x Maneuver. 1 x Electronics. 326 x Engineer. 23 x Maintenance. 65 x
Gunner. 12 x Screen. 8 x Flight. 40 x Troops. 80 x Command. 19 x
Steward. 4 x Medical.

The _Dido_-class light cruiser is expressly intended to operate against
multiple smaller foes.  Although _Dido_ mounts the well-proven 11.144 Gj
NPAW found on many smaller AuricTech cruiser designs, her primary
purpose is to carry 20 smaller, yet still potent, NPAWs into battle. 
One NPAW of this type is capable of engaging a destroyer on equal terms;
_Dido_ mounts twenty such weapons.  Twelve missile bays add to _Dido's_
offensive punch, while AuricTech's proven 15-Mj quad-mount laser turrets
provide both effective point defense against missiles and useful
anti-ship capability against smaller vessels.

As with most AuricTech cruiser designs, _Dido_ is capable of extended
independent operations.  She carries 26 weeks of rations for her design
crew, with enough galley capacity to enable her to mess twice her design
complement.  Under normal manning, each of _Dido's_ crewbeings enjoys an
individual Small or Large stateroom.  _Dido's_ habitability is enhanced
both by her large enlisted and officer lounges, each of which has an
adjacent ordinary galley as a snack bar, and by her physical fitness
centers, which exceed Imperial standards.  Her MultiFlow Corporation
Extended life support system is rated to support double occupancy
indefinitely.  Routine maintenance far from base is facilitated by
_Dido's_ workshops and cargo bays.

All these capabilities are not achieved at the expense of performance.
_Dido_ is capable of the 6G/J4 performance expected of Imperial Navy
fleet units.


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Apr 28 23:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun Apr 28 22:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Singularities
Message-ID: <200204290551.g3T5p4G05098@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Singularities
...
>To quote from someone else:
...
>Even in the Gulf War of 1991 which saw a force of almost 
>400,000 hammered by unlimited conventional airpower for a 
>month and attacked by a large modern mobile armor force with 
>an enormous technological advantage in weaponry, the 
>estimated casualty figure for Iraqi forces equals 
>approximately only 7.1 percent."

  Given that all of the previous figures in that thesis were
annualized (eg, 9.0 per 1,000 per year for WW2), isn't it
strange that this one figure isn't? Especially as it would
contravene their conclusion if it were presented the same way.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 02:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Mon Apr 29 01:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
References: <16f.cbfbaed.29fb394e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CCD0A2F.1080406@gmx.net>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
>>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
>>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>>>
>officer."
>
>>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
>>
>TOS.
>
>Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
>people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
>doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.
>
And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
Bakula...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 03:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Apr 29 02:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Opinions, please
Message-ID: <004a01c1ef5c$d0e67b40$66d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a couple of questions for the list... consider this market =
research of a sort.

1. The Traveller's Aide series: what would folks like to see? The =
planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is there something =
specific?

For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
there prospective writers?

2. Some time ago I began work on a Traveller novel set during the =
Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems likely that the =
Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in a "Golden Age" =
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a couple of questions for the =
list...=20
consider this market research of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. The Traveller's Aide series: what =
would folks=20
like to see? The planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is =
there=20
something specific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what about a series of CT =
adventures=20
set in the Marches, circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make =
it worth=20
doing? Are there prospective writers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Some time ago I began work on a =
Traveller novel=20
set during the Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems =
likely=20
that the Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in =
a&nbsp;"Golden Age"=20
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the=20
Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 04:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 29 03:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
In-Reply-To: <m3wuure80l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20429.005102.9p1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
>> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
>> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
>> time.
>
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
will suspecyt there's a misjump.

>
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
> live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
> always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
>                                                  --Mojo Nixon
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 04:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Mon Apr 29 03:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>

In mail (Digest, which is why I'm so far behind:-), "Matthew Bond" 
<mattgbond@ntlworld.com> said...

<SNIP>
Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in 
the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
</SNIP>

I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4% 
failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company creating 
the system, or the local Police force.

*I* am merely repeating it.

To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently 
'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a lake 
have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in prison 
for perjury (telling lies in court).
Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the 
prisons are too overcrowded"...

ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the 
*whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her 
mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.

Jeff.
"I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 06:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Mon Apr 29 05:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern]
Message-ID: <3CCCF3C7.28630.3F7A8E@localhost>

I picked up a book called "The Yard" by Michael S Sanders
it covers the construction of an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer
from the keel up by the Bath Iron Works, and various techniques and some 
interesting pictures and diagrams

which leads into the question of how starships are built

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 06:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 05:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (OT) George Alec Effinger
Message-ID: <20020429.082943.-324537.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Some of you may already know this, but for those who haven't, George Alec
Effinger has passed away (it's been a rough couple of weeks for SF...
Damon Knight passed away not too long ago).  SJG's 'Daily Illuminator'
has more info: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 07:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Mon Apr 29 06:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B90@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: 29 April 2002 09:51
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >> 
> >> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> >> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> >> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> >> time.
> >
> > Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that 
> jump duration
> > is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that 
> passing the
> > minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> > average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, 
> without having
> > an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> > having an estimated breakout.
> 
> No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
> 168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
> will suspecyt there's a misjump.

Well, theres also the possiblity that the Astrogator miscalculated the
duration... so once the calculated time has elapsed the figures would be
checked and double checked. This will take some time. Then there will be
speculation that an uncharted massive body has interrupted the jump
route, thus throwing the duration out, even then one you get to 185
hours misjump will be the likely answer.

Also, IIRC, Jump sickness is more frequent in Misjumps, with onset of
headaches, dizzyness and nausea within 2-3 days of Jump initiation. So
that is likely to be the first indication of misjump rather than the
calculated duration passing.

And on the subject of Jump Sickness, I thought that Jeffery Long was the
guy that was in a coma after being the only known survivor of EVA during
Jump, and thus unshielded exposure to the Jump bubble. Simple Jump
Sickness is an accepted medical condition that some part of the
population suffers from in Jump, and which is more prevalent in a
misjump (and being one of the early telltales of a misjump)

As for the Illustration of a Jump Time Elapsed Display, rather than a
Countdown to Jump emergence, this may be to facilitate the Jump Exit
Lottery on the ship for passengers and crew. The Astrogator and Captain
may know when the ship is expected to exit Jump, but no-one else
necessarily does...

Matt 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 08:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Apr 29 07:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
References: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3pu0ibmj0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> An ex-Politician is in prison for perjury (telling lies in court).

Given that the entire basis of our court system is people telling the
truth in court, I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 09:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (allensh)
Date: Mon Apr 29 08:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
In-Reply-To: <3CCD0A2F.1080406@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <20020429150301.82010.qmail@web13908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> >tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military
> vessel, its organization is 
> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category
> does not exist. STAR TREK 
> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman
> aboard the U.S.S. 
> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified
> astronaut, therefore an 
> >>>
> >officer."

This was true in the original series, but not in the
later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 09:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Apr 29 08:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020425.170405.-125887.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020429151026.74367.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
could prescribe that for our good General?


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> > On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> > 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three
> bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of
> Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.
> 
> Turokan
> 
> ..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.  
> ---   -       -..   .. 
>  .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..  
> ...-   .   --..--     
>  .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-  
> .-.   .       -   .... 
>  .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---  
> ..-.       -   ....   . 
>      .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 10:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Mon Apr 29 09:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <l03010d14b8f328581e59@[206.224.92.67]>

A message from Warehouse 23 to Traveller fans:

>The details of ordering and availability for the Traveller Limited Edition
>Hardcover haven't been finalized yet.  We will make an announcement as soon
>as everything has been confirmed.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a collection of existing Traveller
>items.  It will be sold through normal distribution and you can get it at
>your friendly local game store, or through Warehouse 23.  Just to clear up
>some confusion: no, it isn't preorder only.
>
>If there's anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me
>here at orders@sjgames.com.

Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
the word out.

We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.

The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
through the normal FLGS channels.



Loren



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <l03010d14b8f328581e59@[206.224.92.67]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429101934.009ecc00@mindspring.com>

At 11:47 AM 4/29/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
>them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
>the word out.
>
>We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
>and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
>through the normal FLGS channels.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf 
shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429101934.009ecc00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEKLDMAA.tml@downport.com>

http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry

> I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Message-ID: <F273WORuXB3QvCzI3Jj000037f8@hotmail.com>

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Brilliant!  I love it."


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  Please have fun using it in your campaigns.  You can 
see from the GM-imposed hardware/software/manning requirements that it was a 
definite "fun quotient" tweak.

     "This should become part of canon, methinks."

     Nope, that's going way too far.  This is absolutely a MTU/YTU rule 
only.  Besides, I got a sneaking suspicion that many folks already have 
something like it in their TUs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 11:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr 29 10:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Message-ID: <200204291255.AA4128904@caddocourt.com>

From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
>--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK 
>> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>> >>>officer."
>
>This was true in the original series, but not in the
>later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
>was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
>were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Again, TNG was also "officer-only" for its first couple of seasons.  And Colm Meany's character was clearly an officer (specifically a Lt).  It was only post-Rodenberry where they introduce enlisted personel and "redefined" Colm Meany's character into the enlisted O'Brien.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Donald McKinney)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with reprint of Double Adventures...
Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E011405E2@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>

Ok, I spilled a dark substance on page 1 of the "Stranded on Arden" adventure in my *NEW* reprints book.

Is it possible to get someone to send me a photocopy of pages 1 and 2 of the "Stranded on Arden" adventure?  Sigh...


DonM.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with reprint of Double Adventures...
Message-ID: <200204291920.FGU00108@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Donald McKinney says
>Ok, I spilled a dark substance on page 1 of the "Stranded on 
>Arden" adventure in my *NEW* reprints book.
>

Ah, the dreaded Coffee...
________________
NO! Sentence first, verdict after!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22737@USCHM203>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
>circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
>there prospective writers?

>2.(re-Traveller Novel)So; supposing we serialized it in =
>the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?

Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:00 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #454 - 15 msgs


Send TML mailing list submissions to
	tml@travellercentral.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	tml-request@travellercentral.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
	tml-admin@travellercentral.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Re: Star Trek (Robert Houghton)
   2. Opinions, please (MJ Dougherty)
   3. Re: Re: Piracy assumptions (Leonard Erickson)
   4. Re: Big Brother (Jeff Rowse)
   5. an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern] (shadowcat)
   6. (OT) George Alec Effinger (knightsky@juno.com)
   7. RE: Re: Piracy assumptions (Matthew Bond)
   8. Re: Re: Big Brother (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
   9. Re: Re: Star Trek (allensh)
  10. Re: RAH and libertarianism (Paul Walker)
  11. (no subject) (Loren Wiseman)
  12. Re: (no subject) (Douglas Berry)
  13. RE: (no subject) (Swordy)
  14. Re: Grote's Clan Ships (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
  15. Re: Re: Star Trek (Mike West)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:54:07 +1000
From: Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
>>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK

>>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>>>
>officer."
>
>>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
>>
>TOS.
>
>Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
>people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
>doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.
>
And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
Bakula...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:03:35 +0100
Subject: [TML] Opinions, please
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a couple of questions for the list... consider this market =
research of a sort.

1. The Traveller's Aide series: what would folks like to see? The =
planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is there something =
specific?

For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
there prospective writers?

2. Some time ago I began work on a Traveller novel set during the =
Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems likely that the =
Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in a "Golden Age" =
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a couple of questions for the =
list...=20
consider this market research of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. The Traveller's Aide series: what =
would folks=20
like to see? The planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is =
there=20
something specific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what about a series of CT =
adventures=20
set in the Marches, circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make =
it worth=20
doing? Are there prospective writers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Some time ago I began work on a =
Traveller novel=20
set during the Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems =
likely=20
that the Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in =
a&nbsp;"Golden Age"=20
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the=20
Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220--


--__--__--

Message: 3
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 00:51:02 PST
Organization: Shadownet
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
>> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
>> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
>> time.
>
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
will suspecyt there's a misjump.

>
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
> live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
> always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
>                                                  --Mojo Nixon
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


--__--__--

Message: 4
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:52:01 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail (Digest, which is why I'm so far behind:-), "Matthew Bond" 
<mattgbond@ntlworld.com> said...

<SNIP>
Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in

the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
</SNIP>

I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4% 
failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company creating 
the system, or the local Police force.

*I* am merely repeating it.

To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently 
'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a lake 
have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in prison

for perjury (telling lies in court).
Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the 
prisons are too overcrowded"...

ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the 
*whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her 
mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.

Jeff.
"I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:18:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern]
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I picked up a book called "The Yard" by Michael S Sanders
it covers the construction of an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer
from the keel up by the Bath Iron Works, and various techniques and some 
interesting pictures and diagrams

which leads into the question of how starships are built

--__--__--

Message: 6
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:29:40 -0400
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: [TML] (OT) George Alec Effinger
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Some of you may already know this, but for those who haven't, George Alec
Effinger has passed away (it's been a rough couple of weeks for SF...
Damon Knight passed away not too long ago).  SJG's 'Daily Illuminator'
has more info: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:41:44 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com



> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: 29 April 2002 09:51
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >> 
> >> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> >> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> >> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> >> time.
> >
> > Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that 
> jump duration
> > is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that 
> passing the
> > minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> > average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, 
> without having
> > an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> > having an estimated breakout.
> 
> No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
> 168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
> will suspecyt there's a misjump.

Well, theres also the possiblity that the Astrogator miscalculated the
duration... so once the calculated time has elapsed the figures would be
checked and double checked. This will take some time. Then there will be
speculation that an uncharted massive body has interrupted the jump
route, thus throwing the duration out, even then one you get to 185
hours misjump will be the likely answer.

Also, IIRC, Jump sickness is more frequent in Misjumps, with onset of
headaches, dizzyness and nausea within 2-3 days of Jump initiation. So
that is likely to be the first indication of misjump rather than the
calculated duration passing.

And on the subject of Jump Sickness, I thought that Jeffery Long was the
guy that was in a coma after being the only known survivor of EVA during
Jump, and thus unshielded exposure to the Jump bubble. Simple Jump
Sickness is an accepted medical condition that some part of the
population suffers from in Jump, and which is more prevalent in a
misjump (and being one of the early telltales of a misjump)

As for the Illustration of a Jump Time Elapsed Display, rather than a
Countdown to Jump emergence, this may be to facilitate the Jump Exit
Lottery on the ship for passengers and crew. The Astrogator and Captain
may know when the ship is expected to exit Jump, but no-one else
necessarily does...

Matt 

--__--__--

Message: 8
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Big Brother
From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: 29 Apr 2002 08:35:31 -0600
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> An ex-Politician is in prison for perjury (telling lies in court).

Given that the entire basis of our court system is people telling the
truth in court, I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

--__--__--

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> >tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military
> vessel, its organization is 
> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category
> does not exist. STAR TREK 
> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman
> aboard the U.S.S. 
> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified
> astronaut, therefore an 
> >>>
> >officer."

This was true in the original series, but not in the
later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
could prescribe that for our good General?


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> > On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> > 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three
> bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of
> Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.
> 
> Turokan
> 
> ..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.  
> ---   -       -..   .. 
>  .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..  
> ...-   .   --..--     
>  .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-  
> .-.   .       -   .... 
>  .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---  
> ..-.       -   ....   . 
>      .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:47:47 -0500
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

A message from Warehouse 23 to Traveller fans:

>The details of ordering and availability for the Traveller Limited Edition
>Hardcover haven't been finalized yet.  We will make an announcement as soon
>as everything has been confirmed.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a collection of existing Traveller
>items.  It will be sold through normal distribution and you can get it at
>your friendly local game store, or through Warehouse 23.  Just to clear up
>some confusion: no, it isn't preorder only.
>
>If there's anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me
>here at orders@sjgames.com.

Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
the word out.

We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.

The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
through the normal FLGS channels.



Loren



--__--__--

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:21:03 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 11:47 AM 4/29/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
>them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
>the word out.
>
>We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
>and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses
out.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
>through the normal FLGS channels.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf 
shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


--__--__--

Message: 13
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] (no subject)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:16 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry

> I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



--__--__--

Message: 14
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:40:58 +0000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Brilliant!  I love it."


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  Please have fun using it in your campaigns.  You can 
see from the GM-imposed hardware/software/manning requirements that it was a

definite "fun quotient" tweak.

     "This should become part of canon, methinks."

     Nope, that's going way too far.  This is absolutely a MTU/YTU rule 
only.  Besides, I got a sneaking suspicion that many folks already have 
something like it in their TUs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:55:27 -0500
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
>--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is

>> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR
TREK 
>> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>> >>>officer."
>
>This was true in the original series, but not in the
>later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
>was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
>were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Again, TNG was also "officer-only" for its first couple of seasons.  And
Colm Meany's character was clearly an officer (specifically a Lt).  It was
only post-Rodenberry where they introduce enlisted personel and "redefined"
Colm Meany's character into the enlisted O'Brien.

Mike West


--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:43:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:43:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Opinions, please (MJ Dougherty)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22738@USCHM203>


-----Original Message-----
From: Hurrel, Brian 
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:39 PM
To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
Subject: From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>


"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
>circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
>there prospective writers?

>2.(re-Traveller Novel)So; supposing we serialized it in =
>the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?

Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:00 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #454 - 15 msgs


Send TML mailing list submissions to
	tml@travellercentral.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	tml-request@travellercentral.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
	tml-admin@travellercentral.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Re: Star Trek (Robert Houghton)
   2. Opinions, please (MJ Dougherty)
   3. Re: Re: Piracy assumptions (Leonard Erickson)
   4. Re: Big Brother (Jeff Rowse)
   5. an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern] (shadowcat)
   6. (OT) George Alec Effinger (knightsky@juno.com)
   7. RE: Re: Piracy assumptions (Matthew Bond)
   8. Re: Re: Big Brother (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
   9. Re: Re: Star Trek (allensh)
  10. Re: RAH and libertarianism (Paul Walker)
  11. (no subject) (Loren Wiseman)
  12. Re: (no subject) (Douglas Berry)
  13. RE: (no subject) (Swordy)
  14. Re: Grote's Clan Ships (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
  15. Re: Re: Star Trek (Mike West)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:54:07 +1000
From: Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
>>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is 
>>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR TREK

>>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>>>
>officer."
>
>>An assumption trashed by the use of ranks such as "Yeoman" and "Chief" in 
>>
>TOS.
>
>Roddenberry was consistent in his inconsistency (reminds me of some other 
>people I know). I will not repeat my rant on how the younger generation 
>doesn't know what a quantum leap in TV Star Trek was.
>
And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
Bakula...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:03:35 +0100
Subject: [TML] Opinions, please
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a couple of questions for the list... consider this market =
research of a sort.

1. The Traveller's Aide series: what would folks like to see? The =
planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is there something =
specific?

For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
there prospective writers?

2. Some time ago I began work on a Traveller novel set during the =
Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems likely that the =
Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in a "Golden Age" =
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a couple of questions for the =
list...=20
consider this market research of a sort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. The Traveller's Aide series: what =
would folks=20
like to see? The planned supplements are all CT/T20 compatible, but is =
there=20
something specific?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what about a series of CT =
adventures=20
set in the Marches, circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make =
it worth=20
doing? Are there prospective writers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Some time ago I began work on a =
Traveller novel=20
set during the Interstellar Wars. It's currently on hold, and it seems =
likely=20
that the Traveller novel that will finally appear will be in =
a&nbsp;"Golden Age"=20
setting rather than the distant past. So; supposing we serialized it in =
the=20
Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Martin J Dougherty<BR>Line Editor, =
Quiklink=20
Interactive<BR>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD">www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C1EF65.2005A220--


--__--__--

Message: 3
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 00:51:02 PST
Organization: Shadownet
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail you write:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
>> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
>> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
>> time.
>
> Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that jump duration
> is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that passing the
> minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, without having
> an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> having an estimated breakout.

No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
will suspecyt there's a misjump.

>
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
> live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
> always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
>                                                  --Mojo Nixon
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


--__--__--

Message: 4
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:52:01 +0000
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail (Digest, which is why I'm so far behind:-), "Matthew Bond" 
<mattgbond@ntlworld.com> said...

<SNIP>
Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one person in 25 in

the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
</SNIP>

I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4% 
failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company creating 
the system, or the local Police force.

*I* am merely repeating it.

To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently 
'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a lake 
have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in prison

for perjury (telling lies in court).
Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the 
prisons are too overcrowded"...

ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the 
*whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her 
mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.

Jeff.
"I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:18:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] an interesting non fiction book on shipbuilding[modern]
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I picked up a book called "The Yard" by Michael S Sanders
it covers the construction of an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer
from the keel up by the Bath Iron Works, and various techniques and some 
interesting pictures and diagrams

which leads into the question of how starships are built

--__--__--

Message: 6
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:29:40 -0400
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: [TML] (OT) George Alec Effinger
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Some of you may already know this, but for those who haven't, George Alec
Effinger has passed away (it's been a rough couple of weeks for SF...
Damon Knight passed away not too long ago).  SJG's 'Daily Illuminator'
has more info: http://www.sjgames.com/ill/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: Matthew Bond <mbond@karpad.demon.co.uk>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:41:44 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com



> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: 29 April 2002 09:51
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Piracy assumptions
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> >> 
> >> On a vaguer note, I'm sure that somewhere I've seen a mention of
> >> misjump that describes how the crew begins to suspect that they've
> >> misjumped as the time stretches out past the estimated breakout
> >> time.
> >
> > Actually, that sounds to me to _reinforce_ the idea that 
> jump duration
> > is known.  If breakout is not know until it happens, that 
> passing the
> > minimum known breakout is certainly no big deal.  Nor is passing
> > average.  Even passing further is no big deal.  Indeed, 
> without having
> > an idea how long _this particular jump_ will be, there's no way of
> > having an estimated breakout.
> 
> No, it's known that jump takes (to use one set of figures put forth)
> 168 hours +/- 10%. So along about hour 185 (probably sooner) people
> will suspecyt there's a misjump.

Well, theres also the possiblity that the Astrogator miscalculated the
duration... so once the calculated time has elapsed the figures would be
checked and double checked. This will take some time. Then there will be
speculation that an uncharted massive body has interrupted the jump
route, thus throwing the duration out, even then one you get to 185
hours misjump will be the likely answer.

Also, IIRC, Jump sickness is more frequent in Misjumps, with onset of
headaches, dizzyness and nausea within 2-3 days of Jump initiation. So
that is likely to be the first indication of misjump rather than the
calculated duration passing.

And on the subject of Jump Sickness, I thought that Jeffery Long was the
guy that was in a coma after being the only known survivor of EVA during
Jump, and thus unshielded exposure to the Jump bubble. Simple Jump
Sickness is an accepted medical condition that some part of the
population suffers from in Jump, and which is more prevalent in a
misjump (and being one of the early telltales of a misjump)

As for the Illustration of a Jump Time Elapsed Display, rather than a
Countdown to Jump emergence, this may be to facilitate the Jump Exit
Lottery on the ship for passengers and crew. The Astrogator and Captain
may know when the ship is expected to exit Jump, but no-one else
necessarily does...

Matt 

--__--__--

Message: 8
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Big Brother
From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: 29 Apr 2002 08:35:31 -0600
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> An ex-Politician is in prison for perjury (telling lies in court).

Given that the entire basis of our court system is people telling the
truth in court, I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

--__--__--

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >In a message dated 4/26/2002 10:57:14 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> >tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military
> vessel, its organization is 
> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category
> does not exist. STAR TREK 
> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman
> aboard the U.S.S. 
> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified
> astronaut, therefore an 
> >>>
> >officer."

This was true in the original series, but not in the
later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
could prescribe that for our good General?


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
> <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> > On 25 Apr 2002 at 11:45, generalturokan@juno.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
> > 
> > Eeek. For $1000/month in NZD we get an okay three
> bedroom place in 
> > an okay area of Wellington. In my home town of
> Palmerston North you'd 
> > probably get a 4-bedroom place.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> and my disability
> pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.
> 
> Turokan
> 
> ..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.  
> ---   -       -..   .. 
>  .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..  
> ...-   .   --..--     
>  .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-  
> .-.   .       -   .... 
>  .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---  
> ..-.       -   ....   . 
>      .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:47:47 -0500
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

A message from Warehouse 23 to Traveller fans:

>The details of ordering and availability for the Traveller Limited Edition
>Hardcover haven't been finalized yet.  We will make an announcement as soon
>as everything has been confirmed.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a collection of existing Traveller
>items.  It will be sold through normal distribution and you can get it at
>your friendly local game store, or through Warehouse 23.  Just to clear up
>some confusion: no, it isn't preorder only.
>
>If there's anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me
>here at orders@sjgames.com.

Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
the word out.

We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses out.

The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
through the normal FLGS channels.



Loren



--__--__--

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:21:03 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] (no subject)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 11:47 AM 4/29/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Cyndy was deluged with messages about the two products, and is answering
>them as best as she can, but she asked me to send you this notice to get
>the word out.
>
>We'll announce when the Limited Edition Hardback is ready for pre-orders --
>and I'll be sure to let the TML know in plenty of time so nobody misses
out.
>
>The Traveller 25th Anniversary Set is a normal item, and will be available
>through the normal FLGS channels.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf 
shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


--__--__--

Message: 13
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] (no subject)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:16 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry

> I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



--__--__--

Message: 14
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Grote's Clan Ships
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:40:58 +0000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Brilliant!  I love it."


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  Please have fun using it in your campaigns.  You can 
see from the GM-imposed hardware/software/manning requirements that it was a

definite "fun quotient" tweak.

     "This should become part of canon, methinks."

     Nope, that's going way too far.  This is absolutely a MTU/YTU rule 
only.  Besides, I got a sneaking suspicion that many folks already have 
something like it in their TUs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:55:27 -0500
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Star Trek
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
>--- Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> wrote:
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>> >>>    "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is

>> >>>only semi military. The "enlisted men" category does not exist. STAR
TREK 
>> >>>goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. 
>> >>>Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an 
>> >>>officer."
>
>This was true in the original series, but not in the
>later ones. Miles O'Brien's rank as of the end of DS9
>was Master Chief Petty Officer. Enlisted personell
>were shown on TNG and Voyager as well.

Again, TNG was also "officer-only" for its first couple of seasons.  And
Colm Meany's character was clearly an officer (specifically a Lt).  It was
only post-Rodenberry where they introduce enlisted personel and "redefined"
Colm Meany's character into the enlisted O'Brien.

Mike West


--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 13:48:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Apr 29 12:48:00 2002
Subject: [TML] From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22737@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>

At 03:38 PM 4/29/02 -0400, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
>"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >For example, what about a series of CT adventures set in the Marches, =
> >circa 1110-16. Is there enough of a market to make it worth doing? Are =
> >there prospective writers?
>
> >2.(re-Traveller Novel)So; supposing we serialized it in =
> >the Traveller's Aide fiction series. Any thoughts on that?
>
>Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?
[big honking snip]

request #1:  Please do not include the entire digest for a one line reply.

request #1:  Please do not send 'styled' text to the list.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 14:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 13:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help with reprint of Double Adventures...
Message-ID: <20020429.130950.-72731.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:20:50 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> Donald McKinney says
> >Ok, I spilled a dark substance on page 1 of the "Stranded on 
> >Arden" adventure in my *NEW* reprints book.
> >
> 
> Ah, the dreaded Coffee...
> ________________
> NO! Sentence first, verdict after!

Guilty!

On old books it's forgiveable, but never on new...

Make him walk the plank Captain, arrgh.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 14:16:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 13:16:11 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020429.130950.-72731.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Paul

On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> Sounds like the General needs to have his doc send him
> on a Medical visit to NZ for, oh, maybe 10-11 months a
> year would help medically.  Any Dr's on the list that
> could prescribe that for our good General?
> 
> 
> --- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
>  > Well, if I could move to N.Z. I would.
>
 > Now if I could only keep my U.S. Social Security,
> > and my disability
> > pension I'd move down under in a heartbeat.

Ah, thanks Paul, it's such a nice jesture.

Perhaps I could stow aboard a freighter?

ObTrav:
So just how could you get off world in my case?
I can't work.
I need assistance.
My funds are tied to this world mandating that I stick around or I don't
get paid.

 Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 15:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Mon Apr 29 14:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
References: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ccd9cd0.1320581@post.demon.co.uk>

"Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> writes:


>To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently=20
>'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs from a =
lake=20
>have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician is in =
prison=20
>for perjury (telling lies in court).
>Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the=20
>prisons are too overcrowded"...

What's your argument regarding the politician?  That since we all know
politicians are liars anyway, nobody should be surprised or offended
if they tell lies in court as well?  Even if the politician in
question deliberately falsified his testimony in order to win a libel
case and thereby secure 6- or7-figure financial damages from the other
party?  Seems to me that's a far worse crime than simple mugging or
car theft...

Also, if you can point me to any real case in any country in the world
where a person accused of rape did not stand trial because "the jails
are full", I'd like to hear it.  I know some countries have "prison
amnesties", and others have been known to extend schemes for parole
and early release, but that's for tried and convicted criminals who
have already served part of their sentence... and I doubt that the
scheme would extend to such a serious crime as rape.  But I'm willing
to be proved wrong if you have evidence.

ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
request.  He states that he is currently engaged in a messy divorce,
and it would be very helpful to his case if the players were willing
to swear that he was having dinner with them on a particular evening.
He offers a generous financial inducement to do this, and suggests to
the players that they should make a formal written deposition before a
lawyer then leave planet.  He promises to only use the deposition if
his wife's lawyers raise that particular evening in court.

If the players agree, then on their next visit to the world (which
might not be for a significant time), they discover that the
politician is still happily married, and won a multi-million credit
settlement in a libel case against a media organisation - thanks
entirely to their (false) evidence.  Do they:

a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
b)  Report the case to the authorities?
c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?

Of course, the problem is that their own involvement in the case was
criminal;  and the politician is a highly respected member of the
governing party and personal friend of the planet's leader.  The media
group that lost the case is keen for redress and could help them, but
it is also running scared of the politician's influence having been
burned once already.  Can the players prove their side of the story?
(Perhaps they can gain access to CCTV camera footage of the night in
question <g> ?)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 16:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 15:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Advanced Battle Armor
Message-ID: <f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39@aol.com>

--part1_f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Hi gang, while surfing the WWweb, I found mention of an article in JTAS 
#3, apparently by a Bob Barger (? I'm having a heck of a time reading my own 
scrawl), called Advanced Battle Armor (?).
   If someone has that issue handy, could they share the particulars?
   Thanks :)
  -Ken Murphy-

--part1_f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hi gang, while surfing the WWweb, I found mention of an article in JTAS #3, apparently by a Bob Barger (? I'm having a heck of a time reading my own scrawl), called Advanced Battle Armor (?).
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;If someone has that issue handy, could they share the particulars?
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_f5.1b1d7efe.29ff1d39_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 17:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Star Trek
Message-ID: <15b.d29cb96.29ff2d05@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/29/2002 2:02:37 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>And here's me thinking that the only Quantum Leap in Star Trek is  Scott 
>Bakula...

You kids today . . .              :  )

I did this once before -- isn't in the archives someplace?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 18:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr 29 17:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3ccd9cd0.1320581@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000201c1efdf$ca99b120$0b01a8c0@duck>

> ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
> world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
> request.  He states that he is currently engaged in a messy divorce,
> and it would be very helpful to his case if the players were willing
> to swear that he was having dinner with them on a particular evening.
> He offers a generous financial inducement to do this, and suggests to
> the players that they should make a formal written deposition before a
> lawyer then leave planet.  He promises to only use the deposition if
> his wife's lawyers raise that particular evening in court.
> 
> If the players agree, then on their next visit to the world (which
> might not be for a significant time), they discover that the
> politician is still happily married, and won a multi-million credit
> settlement in a libel case against a media organisation - thanks
> entirely to their (false) evidence.  Do they:
> 
> a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
> b)  Report the case to the authorities?
> c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?
> 
> Of course, the problem is that their own involvement in the case was
> criminal;  and the politician is a highly respected member of the
> governing party and personal friend of the planet's leader.  The media
> group that lost the case is keen for redress and could help them, but
> it is also running scared of the politician's influence having been
> burned once already.  Can the players prove their side of the story?
> (Perhaps they can gain access to CCTV camera footage of the night in
> question <g> ?)

[I hate to use the whole thing for such a short answer, but I wanted to
keep the context.]

Considering the deal the players made in the first place, a sudden
attack of ethics would seem to be a bit out of place.  They willingly
lied and got paid for it.  Seems pretty bizarre that they would care
that the politician used it for different purposes.

Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 19:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 18:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <20020429.182302.-125801.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:41:39 -0500 "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
writes:
> > ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
> > world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
> > request.  
<snipage>
> > a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
> > b)  Report the case to the authorities?
> > c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?
> > 
> 
> Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
> now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?
> 
> Mike West

Though up front I'd agree and choose [a], if looking deeper I could
choose [c].

My assumption is:
1. The players are already involved in a blackmail scheme against the
politician's wife.
Why?
Money.
If they had scruples, they wouldn't have taken the credits in the first
place.

2. The politician received a huge settlement.
A or some of the players bent on greed may have spent their credits, and
now want more to keep quiet.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 20:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon Apr 29 19:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <20020429.182302.-125801.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>

generalturokan@juno.com
> On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:41:39 -0500 "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
> writes:
> > > ObTrav: the players have some dealings with a local politician on a
> > > world they visit.  He then contacts them secretly with an unusual
> > > request.  
> <snipage>
> > > a) Shrug and chalk it up to experience?
> > > b)  Report the case to the authorities?
> > > c)  Attempt to blackmail the politician?
> > > 
> > 
> > Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
> > now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?
> 
> Though up front I'd agree and choose [a], if looking deeper I could
> choose [c].
> 
> My assumption is:
> 1. The players are already involved in a blackmail scheme against the
> politician's wife.
> Why?
> Money.
> If they had scruples, they wouldn't have taken the credits in the first
> place.
> 
> 2. The politician received a huge settlement.
> A or some of the players bent on greed may have spent their credits, and
> now want more to keep quiet.

I have to admit that I did have the assumption that the politician was
continuing to be friendly to them.  If so, I still stick with [a].  If,
however, the politician becomes hostile for some reason, then I completely
agree that [c] is quite appropriate.

The problem is that if the players pick [c], they probably need to add
that planet to their list of places to avoid for a while.  If they chose
[a], the planet could quite possibly be a good destination, instead.

I do want to note that I think we both agree that [b] is quite pointless.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 20:42:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 19:42:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <20020429.182302.-125801.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020429224441.00e45840@buffnet.net>

Of course, were I that politician, I'd consider the fact that *all* of the
potential loose ends can be tied up neatly together, by exploding a bit of
cheap missile weaponry upon the ship...  (and it would look like piracy
too!)  At the very least, pay a bomber to bomb the ship through a cutout on
the grounds of "insurance"...

;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 21:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Apr 29 20:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <20020429.203207.-125683.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 22:44:41 -0400 hal@buffnet.net writes:
> Of course, were I that politician, I'd consider the fact that *all* 
> of the
> potential loose ends can be tied up neatly together, by exploding a 
> bit of
> cheap missile weaponry upon the ship...  (and it would look like 
> piracy
> too!)  At the very least, pay a bomber to bomb the ship through a 
> cutout on
> the grounds of "insurance"...
> 
> ;)
> 

Ooooo, nice closing touch. The politician takes the lead.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Apr 29 23:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Apr 29 22:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Computer Platforms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204220959200.14506-100000@vcsweb.com>
References: <20413.122049.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429160538.02a58ab0@mail.qrc.com>

At 08:59 PM 4/21/02, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
> > Actually, you should be able to read anything from MS-DOS on up thru
> > Win 1.x, 2.x, & 3.x as well as win 95 stuff on a Win 98 system.
>
>All i am reporting is what the average user, the "plug & pray" type, have 
>told me in the shop.

In my humble opinion, this is the difference between someone in Traveller 
with computer skill, and someone who doesn't.  I assume that someone who is 
from a moderate tech or higher (TL-8+) background can use a computer for 
normal sorts of activities (word processing, looking up references, etc.) 
without computer skill, and without needing to make a roll to operate the 
computer.  On the other hand, "unusual" use of the computer - bypassing 
security restrictions, reading nonstandard files or media, finding 
information that was deliberately obscured, obscuring information that you 
don't want people to find, and that sort of thing are what Computer skill 
is for.

>That some of the Os is put on the disk in what I know as track and 
>sectors. I was told that the track and sectors for this information change 
>with the upgrades.

All operating systems (that I'm aware of) organize a disk into tracks and 
sectors (or cylinders, heads, and sectors which is basically the same 
thing).  For floppy disks, the newer operating systems have more options 
than the old ones, but all are "upward compatible" - the new operating 
system knows how to read the older format.  If you have an old floppy, as 
long as the media hasn't physically degraded, Windows XP can read a disk 
formatted and written from an old 286-based Windows 2 machine.  And Office 
XP can read the Word for Windows file format.

>Therefore this is a reason why newer systems have trouble or can't read
>the older disks.

The usual reason isn't incompatibility but media degradation.  Floppy disks 
were never intended for archival storage of data; they're better than many 
forms of magnetic tape, but aren't going to last forever.  When I worked 
for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, we had a tape 
library that contained satellite data for US weather satellites (going back 
to the first data sent from the very first, in the 1950's).  As part of the 
maintenance of the library, tapes were pulled for check reads (once every 5 
or 10 years, I believe) and any that had begun to degrade were re-recorded 
onto new media.

If you've got computer data that you want to store for the long haul, right 
now the best bet is to burn it to a CD-ROM.  Unlike floppies, the CD-ROM 
file format is a world-wide standard published by the International 
Standards Organization.  It works a lot like I envisioned Traveller media 
standards.  There is a published standard that is available to anyone who 
cares to read it that sets out exactly what is required to read (or write) 
audio or data to a CD-ROM - from the composition of the media all the way 
through the organization of the data.  Any computer that supports CD-ROM 
drives, can read an ISO disk.  Some - mainly those with Microsoft operating 
systems - can write other formats as well; those disks only work with 
compatible Microsoft operating systems.

>I would think that there are Imperial standards for navigation. Set 
>probably by the ISS.

I'd say that the IISS (and in particular the Imperial Grand Survey) has a 
standard format for navigational data, and probably a small number of 
different media that they support.  Thus, there may be thousands of 
different manufacturers of starship avionics in the Imperium, and thousands 
more software houses that write navigational software.  But they can all 
read IISS navigational data, and they all come equipped with an Imperial 
data reader that can read at least one of the media types that the IISS 
supports.

The same goes for basic data transfer of other types.  The IISS (in this 
case via the Express Boat network) has a set of standard formats and media 
types for messages: text, audio, still image, video, holo, and probably a 
couple of other formats for data that is commonly transferred over the 
Xboat network.  A good model for this is the venerable GIF format for 
pictures - it was promulgated by Compuserve, back in the day, much the same 
way that the Xboat system would promulgate standard data formats in the 
Imperium.  Even though Compuserve is now gone, the GIF format still endures 
- and almost any computer can read it.

> > The "correct" solution is to make the software on the "local" systems
> > either produce stuff in the Imperial file formats or at least be able
> > to import and export files in those formats.
>
>In Traveller, on frontiere worlds that are doing their own thing. This 
>could grow into a sense of "National" pride. Or the thought of being 
>"forced" into
>something.

IMTU, this sort of compatibility isn't forced on manufacturers by 
legislation.  The standards are made available by the IISS (for free or a 
very nominal price) to anyone who asks for them, and don't incorporate any 
proprietary technology or techniques - so that anyone who reads and 
understands the standard can build hardware or software that's 
compatible.  There's no legal requirement that anyone do so ... BUT there's 
also a strong disincentive in the market.  If two computers are available, 
both of which can read both the "local" formats and media, but only one of 
which can talk to Imperially-based navigation, news, and Xboat traffic 
systems, which one will eventually win in the market place?  Particularly 
if there is no significant cost difference?  There may well be local file 
and media formats - but sooner or later, everyone will be able to read the 
Imperial formats one way or another.

However, this is an on-going process: worlds that recently developed the 
technology, or were recently incorporated into the Imperial interstellar 
economy, are likely to be in transition, with the market forces still 
sorting things out.


>  Still I suspect that there is something going on in the
>computer line. Where the files are sent say from the x-boat to panet and
>revers. Where it is translated to the usable format for the receptor of
>the information.
>
> > Me, I'm trying to find a way *other* than buying MS Office or some
> > equally expensive program to read MS Access format database files. I
> > finally managed to get at Excel files by installing StarOffice.
>
>  Myself, I am working on converting PET to geoWrite 2.1 then converting
>the final output to Ascii for upload to the places I write for through the
>Inet. I can do the revese and prefere to do all my writing in GeoWrite 2.1
>Takes just a few minutes to convert back and forth. Perhaps that is a
>thought for the Imperial mail at least. Though expanded for images and
>text for the local systems.
>
>BCNU
>
>--
>  *****
>******  ****  Lord Ronin from Q-Link
>**      ***   Sensei David O.E. Mohr {go-dan}
>**            Chancellor & Editor for
>**      ***   Amiga-Commodore Users Group 447
>******  ****  SysOp Vacuum Tube BBS <Omni-128>
>  *****        503-325-2905 300-14.4k C/G-ascii-ansi
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 00:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Apr 29 23:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <3ccd9cd0.1320581@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20429.214428.7c5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Also, if you can point me to any real case in any country in the world
> where a person accused of rape did not stand trial because "the jails
> are full", I'd like to hear it.  I know some countries have "prison
> amnesties", and others have been known to extend schemes for parole
> and early release, but that's for tried and convicted criminals who
> have already served part of their sentence... and I doubt that the
> scheme would extend to such a serious crime as rape.  But I'm willing
> to be proved wrong if you have evidence.

The local jails are having to release a *lot* of folks *before* trial
and hope they show up for trial due to the need to have space available
if there are riots this May Day.

There *are* rules for who gets released bnased on some sort of "points"
assigned at booking.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 01:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 30 00:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
Message-ID: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

This has become something of a TML tradition.  Every April 30, someone posts
this to the TML. This time, it's me.

##########

This battle took place on the 30th of April 1863, during the campaign of
Mexico. It is celebrated each year, on the anniversary of this date, by all
the regiments of the French Foreign Legion.

History: 

The French Army was besieging Puebla.

The mission of the Legion was to ensure the movement and safety of the
convoys, over an 80 mile distance. On the 29th of April 1863, Colonel
Jeanningros was informed that an important convoy was on its way to Puebla,
with a load of 3 million francs, and material and munitions for the seige.
Captain Danjou, his quartermaster, decided to send a company to escort the
convoy. The 3rd company of the Foreign Regiment was assigned to this
mission, but had no officers available. So Captain Danjou, himself, took the
command and 2nd lieutenants Maudet, company guide, and Vilain, the
paymaster, joined him voluntarily.

On the 30th of April, at 1 a.m., the 3rd company was on its way, with its 3
officers and 62 men. At 7 a.m., after a 15 mile march, it stopped at Palo
Verde in order to get some rest. At this very moment, the enemy showed up
and the battle began. Captain Danjou made the company take up a square
formation and, even though retreating, he victoriously drove back several
cavalry charges, inflicting the first heavy losses on the enemy .

By the inn of Camerone, a large building with a courtyard protected by a
wall 3 meters high, Danjou decided to stay, in order to keep the enemy and
so delay for as long as possible, any attacks on the convoy.

While the legionnaires were rapidly setting up the defense of the inn, a
Mexican officer demanded that Captain Danjou surrender, pointing out the
fact that the Mexican Army was greatly superior in number.

Danjou's answer was: "We have munitions. We will not surrender." Then, he
swore to fight to the death and made his men swear the same. It was 10 a.m.
Until 6 p.m., these 60 men who had had nothing to eat or drink since the day
before, in spite of the extreme heat, of the thirst and hunger, resisted
against 2,000 Mexicans: 800 cavalry and 1,200 infantry.

At noon, Captain Danjou was shot in the chest and died. At 2 p.m., 2nd
lieutenant Vilain was shot in the head. About this time, the Mexican colonel
succeeded in setting the inn on fire.

In spite of the heat and the smoke, the legionnaires resisted, but many of
them were killed or injured. By 5 p.m., only 12 men could still fight with
2nd lieutenant Maudet. At this time, the Mexican colonel gathered his
soldiers and told them what disgrace it would be if they were unable to
defeat such a small number of men. The Mexicans were about to give the
general assault through holes opened in the walls of the courtyard, but
Colonel Milan, who had previously asked 2nd lieutenant Maudet to surrender,
once again gave him the opportunity to. Maudet scornfully refused.

The final charge was given. Soon, only 5 men were left around Maudet;
Corporal Maine, legionnaires Catteau, Wensel, Constantin and Leonard. Each
had only one bullet left. In a corner of the courtyard, their back against
the wall, still facing the enemy, they fixed bayonets. When the signal was
given, they opened fire and fought with their bayonets. 2nd lieutenant
Maudet and 2 legionnaires fell, mortally wounded. Maine and his 2 remaining
companions were about to be slaughtered when a Mexican officer saved them.
He shouted: "Surrender"!

"We will only if you promise to allow us to carry and care for our injured
men and if you leave us our guns".

"Nothing can be refused to men like you"!, answered the officer.

Captain Danjou's men had kept their promise; for 11 hours, they had resisted
2,000 enemy troops. They had killed 300 of them and had injured as many.
Their sacrifice had saved the convoy and they had fulfilled their mission.

Emperor Napoleon the 3rd decided that the name of Camerone would be written
on the flag of the Foreign Regiment and the names of Danjou, Vilain and
Maudet would be engraved in golden letters on the walls of the Invalides, in
Paris. 

Moreover, a monument was built in 1892, at the very place of the fight. The
following inscription can be read there :

HERE, THEY WERE LESS THAN SIXTY
AGAINST A WHOLE ARMY
ITS MASS CRUSHED THEM
BUT LIFE RATHER THAN COURAGE
ABANDONED THESE FRENCH SOLDIERS
THE 30TH OF APRIL 1863.
TO THEIR MEMORY THE NATION BUILT THIS MONUMENT.

Since then, when Mexican troops pass by the monument, they present arms.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 03:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 02:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Seems to me that the TML is very quiet right now... I was getting hundreds
of posts a couple of weeks back.

Anyway, here's how things stand here:

Traveller's Aide #1 is out, #2 is in layout. We have drafts for 3-5 more due
in over the next few days. Depending what order they come in, the next
volumes will include a sourcebook on ground vehicles, a ready-NPC book and
an adventure. All CT compatible as well as T20, as usual.

Question is, what do folks want?

All our materials will be T20 compatible - that's a necessity - but we have
the leeway to support CT and the entire Traveller timeline. That means: CT
adventures set in the Marches or the Rim, major sourcebooks on.... whatever.
We're open to suggestions. Tell us what you want from the product line, and
we'll see what we can do....

Regards

MJD







From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 03:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 02:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <01af01c1f02a$4016c010$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Comments are invited...

Some time ago Marc and I began work on a Traveller/naval SF novel. It had a
different title back then but now it's called "The Last Hurrah". Set in the
Interstellar Wars, it was going to be the Traveller Novel, but it seems more
sensible to set a print novel in the "current" Traveller universe. That
leaves Last Hurrah as a bit of an orphan.

Now, what I'm thinking of doing is serializing it as part of the Quiklink
line (but separate from the Traveller's Aide series), as a series of PDFs of
LBB size (say 20,000 words each).

Consider this market research; I need to know if it's worth editing,
reformatting and such like before doing it (very busy right now, as you
might guess).

One note: Marc hasn't got time to work on this; although he co-authored the
early chapters (and had a LOT of creative input), this is not the great Marc
Miller novel. I don't want to mislead anyone on that score.

But anyway: The Last Hurrah is about a band of Terran naval officers during
the Interstellar Wars. I don't want to give much more away than that, but I
might be willing to post the Prologue on the Quiklink site....








Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 04:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 03:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Reviews
Message-ID: <01d301c1f02e$1765e480$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Here's an offer for you...

We're looking for reviewers... and we've got bribes.

We're offering $25 worth of Quiklink Products (*anything* Quiklink sells) to
the first three reviewers to post their comments to the TML.

Here's how it works:

If you're interested, mail me direct. We'll give you a free copy of
Traveller's Aide #1. Once your review is posted, you can cash in your Cr25
for anything Quiklink has to offer.

There are a couple of requirements though:

1. the review must be longer than "it sucks" or even "it sets off
decompression alarms"
2. we'd like to be able to repost the review elsewhere as needed

If you're interested, let me know ASAP.




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 04:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 03:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020316084747.B31496@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20430.013319.6P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Another oldie getting replied to.

In mail you write:

> Daniel Tackett wrote:
>
>> > to (as I recall) *50* times the mass. 
>
>> I hate to butt in, but out of curiosity. Could a gas
>> giant that large be skimmed?
>
> Not a chance, unless your tech greatly exceeds Traveller levels.
> Either you skim at orbital velocities, which are huge and hence you
> get *really hot*, or not, in which case you immediately fall due to
> insufficient thrust.
>
>
>> I find it hard to believe that a gas giant of any size
>> could be skimmed considering the pull of gravity.
>
> In Traveller, some ships could probably cope with up to 3 Jupiter
> masses.  Specialised unmanned skimming 'missiles' could cope with up
> to about 10.

Don't forget that gas giants more massive than Jupiter will be
*smaller*. Which means that gravity at "skimming altitude" will be even
stronger than the simple mass increase would indicate.

Any of the astronomers on the list have even a *rough* formula or table
for the way gas giant diameter varies with mass?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
In-Reply-To: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>

At 10:13 AM 4/30/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>Seems to me that the TML is very quiet right now... I was getting hundreds
>of posts a couple of weeks back.
>Anyway, here's how things stand here:
>Traveller's Aide #1 is out, #2 is in layout. We have drafts for 3-5 more due
>in over the next few days. Depending what order they come in, the next
>volumes will include a sourcebook on ground vehicles, a ready-NPC book and
>an adventure. All CT compatible as well as T20, as usual.
>Question is, what do folks want?
>All our materials will be T20 compatible - that's a necessity - but we have
>the leeway to support CT and the entire Traveller timeline. That means: CT
>adventures set in the Marches or the Rim, major sourcebooks on.... whatever.
>We're open to suggestions. Tell us what you want from the product line, and
>we'll see what we can do....

I really like the CT compatibility.  I'm in several PBEMs that use CT.

Hmm...the Marches are really nice, but how about some RIM and Reavers' Deep 
material first.
Lots of stuff out already for the Marches.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine.
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <20020429.130950.-72731.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020430121047.21439.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

You do lots of volunteer data entry for the TAS and
hope to get paid with a free membership, then you only
need to scrape enough money together to eat.  TAS
gives you a high passage per month, plus lodging.  Of
course, you may be stuck somewhere undesireable for a
month until you get your next HiPsg.

Paul


--- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> ObTrav:
> So just how could you get off world in my case?
> I can't work.
> I need assistance.
> My funds are tied to this world mandating that I
> stick around or I don't
> get paid.
> 
>  Turokan



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <000301c1efec$e5075d70$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <3cce7ff8.11067789@post.demon.co.uk>

"Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com> writes:

>I have to admit that I did have the assumption that the politician was
>continuing to be friendly to them.  If so, I still stick with [a].  If,
>however, the politician becomes hostile for some reason, then I =
completely
>agree that [c] is quite appropriate.

Actually, my assumption was that the politician had pretty much
forgotten their existence - they were off-worlders who were useful to
him for a while, got paid off and left town.
>
>The problem is that if the players pick [c], they probably need to add
>that planet to their list of places to avoid for a while.  If they chose
>[a], the planet could quite possibly be a good destination, instead.
>
>I do want to note that I think we both agree that [b] is quite =
pointless.

In the real-life situation this is based on, the person giving the
politician the original alibi chose (b).  Go figure...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 06:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 05:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <025b01c1f042$9094c060$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> I really like the CT compatibility.  I'm in several PBEMs that use CT.
>
> Hmm...the Marches are really nice, but how about some RIM and Reavers'
Deep
> material first.
> Lots of stuff out already for the Marches.

Sounds cool. Anyone care to write some?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 07:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Apr 30 06:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <F218qk0qcITzSOFI3Jz00003ef4@hotmail.com>

OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?


>From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] (no subject)
>Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:39:16 -0400
>
>http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
>
> > I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> > shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!
>
>



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue Apr 30 06:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <F218qk0qcITzSOFI3Jz00003ef4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCELIDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Ummm.... Avery!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Andrew MacLintock
>
> OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?
>
> >From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
> >
> >http://www.farfuture.net/a9001.html
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> >
> > > I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
> > > shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 07:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 06:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
In-Reply-To: <025b01c1f042$9094c060$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430094632.00b85cb0@urbin.net>

At 01:28 PM 4/30/02 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > I really like the CT compatibility.  I'm in several PBEMs that use CT.
> > Hmm...the Marches are really nice, but how about some RIM and Reavers'
>Deep
> > material first.
> > Lots of stuff out already for the Marches.
>Sounds cool. Anyone care to write some?

There was a lot of material written for Reavers' Deep by the TNE Pocket group.
The Deep was the domain of the Keith Brothers, and we had permission from 
them to update for TNE.

Some members of that group (like myself) are still on the TML.
Material from there could be published pretty much 'as is' for TNE.

For other era'/timelines, it could be modified.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 08:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 07:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020430094632.00b85cb0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <02a701c1f050$eed3c370$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> There was a lot of material written for Reavers' Deep by the TNE Pocket
group.
> The Deep was the domain of the Keith Brothers, and we had permission from
> them to update for TNE.
>
> Some members of that group (like myself) are still on the TML.
> Material from there could be published pretty much 'as is' for TNE.
>
> For other era'/timelines, it could be modified.
>

I think I'd like to see this.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 08:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue Apr 30 07:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (sorta OT) Fw: [FT] Naval Manpower
Message-ID: <006a01c1f04d$29923400$1f9e15ac@warrior>

I think you guys can figure out the obtrav for this one :)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Donogh McCarthy" <donoghmc@hotmail.com>
To: <gzg@firedrake.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:15 AM
Subject: [FT] Naval Manpower


>
>
> Interesting article on Northrops new naval designs
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5236-2002Apr29.html
>
> In relation to the new Destroyer Class design it states:
>
> "Under the plan, sailors' standard of living also would be drastically
> improved. For example, three-tier bunk beds would be replaced with
> staterooms shared by as many as three sailors and outfitted with computers
> and Internet connections. Crew sizes would drop from 300 to 125, then
> eventually to 95. "It allows the Navy to free up a lot of resources,"
> [defense analyst Jay] Korman said.
>
> Questions arising from this:
>
> 1. What kind of % of total personnel is there is each area of operations
on
> board a military naval vessel?
>
> 2. Presumably there as some tasks manpower is always needed for, that
can't
> be automated. What kind of tasks would these be, and what plausible sci-fi
> elements could lead to these being done by automation?
>
> 3. Also presumably you need 2-3 times the number of people needed to do
all
> the jobs. Does anyone see this aspect of crew requirments as ever being
able
> to change?
>
> 4. Would crew comfort, health etc. be a bigger concern in space, and would
> this lead to larger vessels or smaller crews; or shorter deployment times?
>
> Any thoughts?
> Donogh
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 08:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 07:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML
In-Reply-To: <02a701c1f050$eed3c370$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020429154858.00b8dec0@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020430075704.00cf85e8@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020430094632.00b85cb0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430104838.00b887e0@urbin.net>

At 03:11 PM 4/30/02 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > There was a lot of material written for Reavers' Deep by the TNE Pocket
>group.
> > The Deep was the domain of the Keith Brothers, and we had permission from
> > them to update for TNE.
> > Some members of that group (like myself) are still on the TML.
> > Material from there could be published pretty much 'as is' for TNE.
> > For other era'/timelines, it could be modified.
>I think I'd like to see this.

I have the full archives squirrelled away somewhere, plus they are also 
online, somewhere, in compressed format.

For a start, take a look at some my stuff:

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/sa-sc.html>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/rangetruck.html>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/tl5-6_seaplane.html>

<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/Venice_data.htm>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
Message-ID: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>

--part1_15e.cff6a74.2a000c32_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Folks,

Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/

The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
product line.

For those of you who are JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in
Brubek's on Wednesday evening to discuss the changes and what they
mean for the fan community. There should be another chat next week if
you can't make the May 1 one. Both Loren and I subscribe to this mailing
list too, so we're available for any discussions.

Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be working with Loren and Marc
Miller on the continued development of the Traveller universe. Traveller has
been a favorite of mine for over twenty years, so the chance to contribute in
this fashion is very gratifying.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_15e.cff6a74.2a000c32_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Folks,
<BR>
<BR>Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:
<BR>
<BR>http://www.sjgames.com/ill/
<BR>
<BR>The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
<BR>Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
<BR>will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
<BR>product line.
<BR>
<BR>For those of you who are JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in
<BR>Brubek's on Wednesday evening to discuss the changes and what they
<BR>mean for the fan community. There should be another chat next week if
<BR>you can't make the May 1 one. Both Loren and I subscribe to this mailing
<BR>list too, so we're available for any discussions.
<BR>
<BR>Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be working with Loren and Marc
<BR>Miller on the continued development of the Traveller universe. Traveller has
<BR>been a favorite of mine for over twenty years, so the chance to contribute in
<BR>this fashion is very gratifying.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_15e.cff6a74.2a000c32_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:07:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:07:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Thanks!
Message-ID: <l03010d06b8f46090bf4e@[206.224.92.67]>

As I do every Quarter, I would like to thank the gentlesophonts on the TML
for ordering books and stuff from Amazon.com through the link on my web
page.

For those who don't know, I get a 5% bounty on almost anything you order
provided you use the button on

http://www.lorenwiseman.com

Scroll down, hit the button (which will take you to Amazon) and then order
normally. It doesn't cost you anything extra (except a little time), and
you will help subsidize my reading habit. If you are going to buy something
through Amazon anyway, why not toss me a little something extra?

LKW



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
References: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02ed01c1f05a$50cf4b90$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_02EA_01C1F062.9FF0E370
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to=20
Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and=20
will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the=20
product line.=20

For those of you who are JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in=20
Brubek's on Wednesday evening to discuss the changes and what they=20
mean for the fan community. There should be another chat next week if=20
you can't make the May 1 one. Both Loren and I subscribe to this mailing =

list too, so we're available for any discussions.=20

Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be working with Loren and Marc =

Miller on the continued development of the Traveller universe. Traveller =
has=20
been a favorite of mine for over twenty years, so the chance to =
contribute in=20
this fashion is very gratifying.=20



***** Stands up and cheers ******

That's great. Not only good guys at the helm but it shows a commitment =
to the GT line at SJG.

Okay, back to work now,,,,

Regards

MJD

------=_NextPart_000_02EA_01C1F062.9FF0E370
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>The executive summary =
is that Loren=20
Wiseman is being promoted to <BR>Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. =
I've=20
been named Line Editor and <BR>will be assisting Loren with planning and =

day-to-day management of the <BR>product line. <BR><BR>For those of you =
who are=20
JTAS subscribers, we'll be holding a chat in <BR>Brubek's on Wednesday =
evening=20
to discuss the changes and what they <BR>mean for the fan community. =
There=20
should be another chat next week if <BR>you can't make the May 1 one. =
Both Loren=20
and I subscribe to this mailing <BR>list too, so we're available for any =

discussions. <BR><BR>Speaking personally: I'm quite excited to be =
working with=20
Loren and Marc <BR>Miller on the continued development of the Traveller=20
universe. Traveller has <BR>been a favorite of mine for over twenty =
years, so=20
the chance to contribute in <BR>this fashion is very gratifying.=20
<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>***** Stands up and =
cheers=20
******</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>That's great. Not only =
good guys at=20
the helm but it shows a commitment to the GT line at =
SJG.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>Okay, back to work=20
now,,,,</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2>Regards</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT=20
size=3D2>MJD</DIV></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_02EA_01C1F062.9FF0E370--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 09:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 30 08:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
In-Reply-To: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020430083905.009f8430@mindspring.com>

At 12:27 AM 4/30/02 -0700, you wrote:
>HERE, THEY WERE LESS THAN SIXTY
>AGAINST A WHOLE ARMY
>ITS MASS CRUSHED THEM
>BUT LIFE RATHER THAN COURAGE
>ABANDONED THESE FRENCH SOLDIERS
>THE 30TH OF APRIL 1863.
>TO THEIR MEMORY THE NATION BUILT THIS MONUMENT.

We used to have this read to us in the Army.  Someday, I want to visit the 
monument.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML Haiku
Message-ID: <200204301610.FII07851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

This one is a "generic combat", but I'm sure some of you have 
ObTrav haiku you've thought of.  They don't have to be combat 
oriented, either

Red streak of tracers
Steady thump of machinegun
Splintering tree limbs
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:14:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:14:08 2002
Subject: [TML] More TML Haiku
Message-ID: <200204301613.FII08329@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ok, one more ObTrav

Sparkling laser beams
Tinny sound of suit alarm
Hissing air escapes
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] just one more
Message-ID: <200204301628.FIK01334@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

And for those of you standing on the surface of a gas giant's 
moon....

Gleaming arc of rings
Frozen nitrogen crunches
Boots leave my footprints
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:38:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:38:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <F12ZUr3CrJRxKZMqA4d00004f37@hotmail.com>

In mail, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> rightly points out that...

<SNIP>
...the entire basis of our court system is people telling the truth in 
court...
</SNIP>

That wasn't the point though.  The point was supposed to be a commentary on 
the British (In)Justice system.
If he had killed a six-year-old girl standing on a pavement (sidewalk) next 
to a pedestrian crossing whilst he was driving under the influence of 
alcohol, he would have been given a GB250 fine and a three month suspended 
sentence.
But because he (shock, horror) omitted to tell the *whole* truth and 
slightly 'bent' what truth he did tell in a libel case against a national 
newspaper, he gets a five year jail sentence.


<SNIP>
...I think anyone that gets off with a simple prison
sentence is lucky indeed.
</SNIP>

Make the punishment fit the crime.  The "gentleman" in question did not 
physically hurt anyone, or steal from them.  He was not a danger to the 
public.
If his lies had resulted in people being hurt then yes, jail him.  All this 
has done is make more people realise what a stupid bunch of incompetent 
jerks we have for judges in England.
Another example, a judge sentenced a young man (I think the charge was 
disturbing the peace - again, nobody suffered physically) to something like 
a GB1500 fine, and then refused to believe the kid was only getting 
something like GB100 a week in wages stacking shelves at the local 
supermarket.  The supermarket manager had to provide their salary and tax 
records before the judge would believe it...

Jeff.
"Take cover?  Why, he can't hit us from over th..."

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML Haiku
In-Reply-To: <200204301610.FII07851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020430093325.009e8330@mindspring.com>

At 12:10 PM 4/30/02 -0400, you wrote:
>This one is a "generic combat", but I'm sure some of you have
>ObTrav haiku you've thought of.  They don't have to be combat
>oriented, either

Traveller Mail List
Three hundred in the mail box
Reading all morning

Near-C rock flame again?
This argument never ends
Perhaps piracy?

Free trader jumping
Laughs at the laws of physics
Boring week in here

Bright career in Scouts
Hoping for my own Type S
3? Damn, I have died!

Sex and politics
Tend to dominate the list
Find ObTrav, stat!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 10:48:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 09:48:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <200204301644.FIK03907@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Jeff Rowse" says
>Make the punishment fit the crime.  The "gentleman" =
in =

>question did not physically hurt anyone, or steal from =

>them.  He was not a danger to the public.
>If his lies had resulted in=
 people being hurt then yes, jail =

>him.  All this has done is make more people realise what a =

>stupid bunch of incompetent jerks we have for judges in =

>England.
>Another example, a judge sentenced a young man (I think the =
=

>charge was disturbing the peace - again, nobody suffered =

>physically) to something like a GB=A31500 fine, and then =

>refused to believe the kid was only getting =

>something like GB=A3100 a week in wages stacking shelves at =

>the local supermarket.  The supermarket manager had to =

>provide their salary and tax records before the judge would =

>believe it...
>

Drunken killer walks
Perjurer gets jail sentence
=
And this is justice?

________________
Sunlight on windows
Office bu=
ildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 11:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 10:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
In-Reply-To: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
References: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200204301320030096.0DA6983B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
>Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
>will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
>product line.

Congratulations to the both of you! Traveller continues to be well=
 represented at SJG!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 11:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 30 10:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] More TML Haiku
Message-ID: <20020430173521.6110.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

Not the best Haiku, but while we were at the topic...

Haiku are very strange
SciFi can be even stranger yet
Together seems fit

TML is quiet
Haiku can save the day here
Reading to think on

Paper, pens, and die
Two D6 thank you very much
All we need for fun

Marc, Loren, et al
You built a play universe
Thank you much for Trav


__________________________________________________
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http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:16:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:16:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
Message-ID: <memo.996438@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Thank you for keeping this fine tradition alive.

They always say that 2 dates are important to the French Foreign Legion - 
1863 and 1664.

We have just heard, as is right and proper, about 1863.

And 1664? - it's printed on the side of every can of Kronenburg beer, a 
favourite beverage amongst Legionnaires :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:19:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:19:01 2002
Subject: [TML] TML- Travellers' Aide
Message-ID: <memo.996439@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Greetings dear hearts.

I would like to see: -

Equipment - NOT just weapons, but the useful everyday stuff that players 
always want to acquire as they plan the next job, and you end up quickly 
calculating Travelleresque prices and descriptions around everyday items.

Medical (and recreational) drugs properly developed. And some good 
illnesses which the drugs can be used to treat... :-)

Well-detailed planets to visit. 

A fully-detailed starport (ground port or up port...).

Shops and businesses - how often do your players say "I'm looking for a 
clothes shop or a coffee bar" and you have to make it up on the fly?

Just some thoughts...

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:23:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:23:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
Message-ID: <memo.996441@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <15e.cff6a74.2a000c32@aol.com>
Hoo-yah!!!

Warmest congratulations and blessings for the future to both of you :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 12:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Apr 30 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
Message-ID: <20020430184406.48777.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

Back in 97, when I was last in Trav, we were working
on THUDD.  Is THUDD still around?  If so, where is it
happening?  In the immortal words of #5, "Need more
input!"

Thanks for any info.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 13:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 12:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TML- Travellers' Aide
In-Reply-To: <memo.996439@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020430150810.00b84e80@urbin.net>

At 07:15 PM 4/30/02 +0100, Megan Robertson wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <017c01c1f027$5d36fc80$c09393c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
>Greetings dear hearts.
>I would like to see: -
>Equipment - NOT just weapons, but the useful everyday stuff that players
>always want to acquire as they plan the next job, and you end up quickly
>calculating Travelleresque prices and descriptions around everyday items.

Ah yes...the standard kit collects.

Personal Computer & Personal Communications Units (Percomps & Percomms).
I like to combine the two into a single unit with multiple I/O interfaces 
starting at TL 8 and getting more feature rich and robust (and more 'shock 
resistant') as TLs rise.

Multitools: General, survival, electronic, etc.

Vacc suits and PLSS units at various TLs.  Showing the range between a TL A 
Rescue Ball and a TL F tailored (skin) vacc suit.

Field gear, survival gear, what the well dressed business soph on Regina is 
wearing this year.

Typical layout for a Naval Corpsman assigned to an Imperial Marine Rapid 
Response Force...

etc., etc.

>Medical (and recreational) drugs properly developed. And some good
>illnesses which the drugs can be used to treat... :-)
>
>Well-detailed planets to visit.
>
>A fully-detailed starport (ground port or up port...).
>
>Shops and businesses - how often do your players say "I'm looking for a
>clothes shop or a coffee bar" and you have to make it up on the fly?
>
>Just some thoughts...
>
>Hugs and kisses,
>
>Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
In-Reply-To: <20020430184406.48777.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CCEB33B.7146.D337F2@localhost>

Paul

As far as I know THUDD died shortly after GURPS Traveller came 
out and disputes about which design system to use started.  I am 
not sure of the details because I started lurking for the most part 
since G.T. came out.  Someone else might be able to help more.  


Tim

> Back in 97, when I was last in Trav, we were working
> on THUDD.  Is THUDD still around?  If so, where is it
> happening?  In the immortal words of #5, "Need more
> input!"
> 
> Thanks for any info.
> 
> Paul
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
In-Reply-To: <20020430184406.48777.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020198030.2060.ajackson@ping>

Paul Walker writes:
> Back in 97, when I was last in Trav, we were working
> on THUDD.  Is THUDD still around?

THUDDD died a long time ago; it looks like it went irregular in early 1998,
lost momentum, and seems to have died entirely by 2000.

There was a ship-building contest on JTAS, but it seems to be being pretty
unreliable too.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <20020430.132748.-162959.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Paul

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> You do lots of volunteer data entry for the TAS and
> hope to get paid with a free membership, then you only
> need to scrape enough money together to eat.  TAS
> gives you a high passage per month, plus lodging.  Of
> course, you may be stuck somewhere undesireable for a
> month until you get your next HiPsg.

Ah yes, my word. The old perverbial "volunteer data entry for the TAS "
routine. Of course I might starve before then. NO, WAIT! I can eat at
Chaplain Bari's soup kitchen, yeah, that's the ticket.

Now if TAS will just drop me off in NZ I'll be fine, cash in my high
passage each month, no problem.

Turokan

>  --- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> > ObTrav:
> > So just how could you get off world in my case?
> > I can't work.
> > I need assistance.
> > My funds are tied to this world mandating that I
> > stick around or I don't
> > get paid.
> > 
> >  Turokan
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 14:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 13:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
Message-ID: <200204302040.FIS03034@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net  says
>As far as I know THUDD died shortly after GURPS Traveller 
>came out and disputes about which design system to use 
>started.  I am not sure of the details because I started 
>lurking for the most part since G.T. came out.  Someone else 
>might be able to help more.  
>

Maybe we should start THUDD again, but this time, have 
different rule divisions.  That way, people compete in the 
rule sets they want to compete in, rather than having 
to "eat" a single rule set.

I've noticed that everyone has their own favorite, so there's 
no sense in limiting us to one rule set.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 15:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 14:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.141101.-161815.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

TML'ers

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 05:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> You do lots of volunteer data entry for the TAS and
> hope to get paid with a free membership. 

Speaking of data entry, or writing of anything I would appreciate it If
you all would kindly try this out. It's how I actually type.

Place your right hand in front of your keyboard, fingers facing left,
palm up.
Now stand up.
Keeping your index finger against the front edge of your keyboard, hand
relaxed, begin typing ONLY using your right thumb.
The other catch - don't move your arm muscles, just shift your weight,
and type from shoulder shifting.
To use the shift key I can get my left thumb to hold it
down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My head is also limp, my chins buried in my chest.

That's it folks.

Turokan

> --- generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> > ObTrav:
> > So just how could you get off world in my case?
> > I can't work.
> > I need assistance.
> > My funds are tied to this world mandating that I
> > stick around or I don't
> > get paid.
> > 
> >  Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 15:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Apr 30 14:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
In-Reply-To: <20020430.141101.-161815.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020430.141101.-161815.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <m3k7qo2891.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Do you use any accessibility tools?  I understand that most systems
come with the ability to have `sticky' keys--that is, shift acts like
a soft caps lock, or the shift on a Palm.  Tap shift once, and it's on
for one character; tap it twice, and it's on for good; tap it a third
time and it's off.  The same applies to ctrl and alt, of course.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
...It [the Mexican dictatorship] has demanded us to deliver up our arms,
which are essential for our defence, the rightful property of freemen,
and formidable only to tyrannical governments...
          --Texas Declaration of Independence

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 15:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 14:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20430.013319.6P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020316084747.B31496@freeman.little-possums.net> <20430.013319.6P0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020501074423.A30174@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Any of the astronomers on the list have even a *rough* formula or
> table for the way gas giant diameter varies with mass?

Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
dwarf mass.  Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
increasing temperatures.  Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.

It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <01c301c1f096$8feb55d0$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

We've had considerable response to our request for reviewers. The 3 bribe
packages are long gone, and we have several more potential reviewers.

If you replied and I haven't been in touch yet, nudge me, will you? It's
late and I may have missed some.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 16:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Apr 30 15:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Line Editor Haikus
Message-ID: <01c401c1f097$3104f160$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


New game book is out
QuikLink needs publicity
Asked the List for help

Many replies came
People wanting freebie book
Mailbox is now full




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 17:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 16:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.160031.-125169.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Robert

On 30 Apr 2002 15:20:58 -0600 ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
writes:
> Do you use any accessibility tools?

No, no ones showed me how.

>  I understand that most systems
> come with the ability to have `sticky' keys--that is, shift acts 
> like
> a soft caps lock, or the shift on a Palm.  Tap shift once, and it's 
> on
> for one character; tap it twice, and it's on for good; tap it a 
> third
> time and it's off.  The same applies to ctrl and alt, of course.

I've seen info in passing, but never looked into it in depth.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Tue Apr 30 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Line Editor Haikus
References: <01c401c1f097$3104f160$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <004301c1f09c$cd426710$9307b286@Shane>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> New game book is out
> QuikLink needs publicity
> Asked the List for help
> 
> Many replies came
> People wanting freebie book
> Mailbox is now full

Don't look at me man
Marketing plug not in vain
I bought the darn thing!
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Please take this credit card away from me
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 17:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Apr 30 16:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
In-Reply-To: <20020430.160031.-125169.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020430.160031.-125169.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <m3wuuo927f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

generalturokan@juno.com writes:

>
> > Do you use any accessibility tools?
> 
> No, no one's showed me how.

You should def. ask around.  They can really make life easier when
typing's a chore.

> I've seen info in passing, but never looked into it in depth.

In Linux, one can simply change the key definitions from Control to
SControl, Alt to SAlt, Shift to SShift.  There's also Morseall
<http://morseall.org/>, which allows one to tap out morse code on a
mouse button to control a text shell.

On Macs & Windows, there's a control panel which gives one that sort
of option.

I imagine that using a mouse is Right Out for you.  You may wish to
investigate a command-line only interface, as that is meant to be used
straight from the keyboard, and won't expect a mouse movement at an
inconvenient time.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Every man, woman, and responsible child has a natural, fundamental,
and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right
(within the limits of the Non-Aggression Principle) to obtain, own,
and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon--handgun, shotgun, rifle,
machinegun, anything--any time, anywhere, without asking anyone's
permission.                                       --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
Message-ID: <bc.25d5fa44.2a008f10@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?

Marc's evil twin Morc

LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:26:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:26:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: News
Message-ID: <10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8@aol.com>

--part1_10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:

> >Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:
> >
> >http://www.sjgames.com/ill/
> >
> >The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to
> >Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and
> >will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the
> >product line.
> 

And, of course, Jon beat me to it.

What he said.

LKW

--part1_10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time, tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;Some of you may have already seen today's Daily Illuminator:<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;http://www.sjgames.com/ill/<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;The executive summary is that Loren Wiseman is being promoted to<BR>
&gt;Senior Line Editor for GURPS Traveller. I've been named Line Editor and<BR>
&gt;will be assisting Loren with planning and day-to-day management of the<BR>
&gt;product line.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
And, of course, Jon beat me to it.<BR>
<BR>
What he said.<BR>
<BR>
LKW</FONT></HTML>

--part1_10d.11855bc5.2a008fe8_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.172641.-125169.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Robert

On 30 Apr 2002 17:49:40 -0600 ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com writes:
>  >
> > > Do you use any accessibility tools?
> > 
> > No, no one's showed me how.
> 
> You should def. ask around.  They can really make life easier when
> typing's a chore.
>  
> On Macs & Windows, there's a control panel which gives one that sort
> of option.

I use Windows, I'll need to test it.

> I imagine that using a mouse is Right Out for you.  

No, on the contrary, the mouse I use best. That is - once I get my arm up
onto the desk. Copy and paste is my best action.

Thanks,

Now where'd I leave my grav-belt?

Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F86Dv60gxapzhad2VqK00006ba3@hotmail.com>

>From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>
>>Rupert Boleyn posted:
>>On 25 Apr 2002 at 12:48, wombat@premier.net wrote:
>>>Of course, if TL-15 designs are included, I can always dig up my
>>>designs for _Montana_ (500,000 dtons) and _Shiva_ (1,000,000 dtons).
>>>Note that all three of the above-mentioned AuricTech designs carry
>>>PAW spinal mounts; I've never been a big fan of meson guns.
>>>Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of meson
>>>guns that AuricTech doesn't need to try to fill that ecological
>>>niche.
>>
>>I wonder how many other people don't really like meson guns? I'm not
>>really a fan of them either, and seldom use them.
>
>First of all, thank you to all of those who replied. Patrik, I'm
>going to mine your site this evening for ideas! Your "Recurrent
>Glory"-class is positively stunning.

<blushes>

>As for meson guns..yeah, I never liked 'em. Never, that is, until
>I saw Patrik's website. How about a 406 Gj Meson Spinal mount that
>can punch through a cruiser's meson screen (and armor) at Long
>distance?

To the best of my knowledge the effectiveness of Meson guns have varied 
rather dramatically between editions but I have to agree that they are only 
marginally effective in space combat under the FFS2/MCS combo (I know/care 
very little about the T4 space combat system). Some of the smaller ships I 
designed with Meson guns should probably perform better with PAWs (but then 
most of them are experiments to see how effective Meson guns are with MCS).

Besides, there are enough other designers who _are_ fond of PAWs that 
Dimashq doesn't need to try to fill that ecological niche. ;)

IMO meson guns only become somewhat effective in ship-to-ship combat with 
tunnel lengths of 500 m or more (IIRC the Recurrent Glory has a 690 m Meson 
Gun). The biggest advantage in game is that their existence forces ships to 
carry Meson screens that add another factor into the acceleration vs. armour 
vs. stealth equation. The biggest disadvantages that they have short range 
and that hit probability analysis suggest that it's harder to hit a target 
with a meson gun (a effect simulated by MCS). An evasive strategy that is 
optimal for Meson guns will however be less efficient against Lasers and 
PAWs (unless shot at from more than one direction).


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:55:14 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <200205010054.FJA02801@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>Subject: Re: [TML] A Challenge  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>No, on the contrary, the mouse I use best. That is - once I 
>get my arm up onto the desk. Copy and paste is my best 
>action.
>
I've got a Microsoft trackball that helped the arm strain go 
away (seems I get tense using a regular mouse). That, and I 
use IBM ViaVoice to type a lot.  Initially, I had to make a 
lot of corrections, but it knows me now. Not so good for web 
pages, but that's what the mouse is for.  It's very good for 
dictation in Word.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 18:59:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 17:59:08 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <F86Dv60gxapzhad2VqK00006ba3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020214606.5089.ajackson@ping>

Patrik Holmstr=F6m writes:

> To the best of my knowledge the effectiveness of Meson guns have varied=
=20
> rather dramatically between editions but I have to agree that they are on=
ly
>  marginally effective in space combat under the FFS2/MCS combo

Specifically, there's not much point to range beyond short, due to the evas=
ion
effects.  Meson guns have a bunch of interesting tactical uses because you =
can
hide behind a planet or deep in a gas giant and use a forward observer in a
fighter (yeah, that's not discussed in MCS).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:05:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:05:07 2002
Subject: [TML] reloading example
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020319202156.009eb8c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20430.171325.3s0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Mark, you have one of *everything.*
>
> One of my "win the lottery" plans is establish residency in Oregon, get the 
> proper paperwork, and have you show me where to go shopping.  :)

Well, there's always "Fairly Honest Don's Machine Gun Parlor" out in
Hillsboro. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>

From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
>>This can be achieved by a 34 Mj laser pulse. We are probably talking 
>> >>about a X-ray laser so it needs to be at least TL13.
>
>That doesn't necessarily follow.  TL13 is where controlled and
>contained Xray weapon lasers appear, is it not?

That's why I said probably. However if we want to build a ChemDet warhead 
using the canon laser rules (or a slightly tweaked version) ChemDets will 
suck big time unless they are grav focused or use X-ray wavelengths.


>I would expect detonation lasers to appear *much* earlier; TL8 or 9.

Are you talking about NukeDets or ChemDets here?


> >Can a lasing rod (as used in NukeDets) also be used with chemicals?
>
>Almost certainly nuclear detonation lasers are nothing like chemical
>ones.  They would be based on gamma/hard Xray radiation input to begin
>with, and chemical reactions never generate such radiation.

I thought so too, nice to have it confirmed.


> > Are we using standard Chemical Lasing Cartridges (that don't blow
> > up) or something more powerful (that does)?
>
>The latter, I would expect.  A cartridge that doesn't blow up is
>over-engineered for this task.

Yeah, I would like self-destructing cartridges as well and since we already 
have Chemical Laser Cartridges that don't blow up there should exist a 
margin for more powerful and/or lighter self-destructing version.

The laser cartridge question is not my largest obstacle. The regular CLC has 
more than enough power to be a viable weapon for civilian/light military use 
especially considering the price tag of the alternative (NukeDets cost 1+MCr 
and a missile armed ship can easily carry three times its own cost in 
missiles). The big problem is explaining why so few beams from a NukeDet 
seems to hit the target. At 15000 km the target can only evade 0.5m/G so the 
number of hits should be more or less equal to the number of rods/focal 
arrays pointed at the target. If we assume that all the lasers fired hits we 
get the following TL13 500 kg warheads (regular CLC).

#CLC     Energy  MCS stats
16     x  40 Mj  13:14
8     x  80 Mj  14:13
4     x 160 Mj  15:12

There are some reasons (e.g. the 1D6 Hits rule from TNE/T4) to believe that 
NukeDets aren't this accurate. As they don't require a conventional beam 
pointer (whatever it is that beam pointers do) it could be argued that they 
compensate by spreading the shots over a larger area (shotgun style). 
Another source of inaccuracy could be the detonation of the nuke itself.

If a ChemDet used a regular beam pointer none of the above would apply and a 
reasonable assumption would be that all the pulses would hit. That's nice 
but unfortunately a 15'000 km beam pointer weights slightly less than 1000 
kg (mixing FFS1/2 at TL13, 50'000 km = 1333 kg, 30.000 km = 1000 kg, 5000 km 
= 948 kg, 3000 km = 500 kg). This is clearly too much for a missile and 
Bruce Macintosh argued in a off-list email that ChemDets should be able to 
use a lightweight beam pointer since NukeDets get away with something like 
that. The question then becomes how this affects the performance of the 
ChemDet.

I am leaning towards postulating a 100 kg beam pointer that causes 5/6ths of 
the laser pulses to miss when fired at "a typical target" from 15'000 km. 
This is reduced to 2/3rds due to the ChemDets shorter detonation range. With 
these assumptions we get the following TL13 500 kg (400+100kg) warheads.

Nr/CLSs  Energy  MCS stats
12     x  45 Mj  13:11
6     x  90 Mj  14:10
3     x 180 Mj  15:9


This is slightly better than the MCS ChemDet warhead (which is a handwave 
based on a somewhat legal design). There exist enough handwave room here to 
tweak things to anybodies liking. The draft I'm working on adds a factor 2 
by going to self-destructive cartridges at TL13 (4 Mj/kg) while a TL16 
self-destructive cartridge (5 Mj/kg) adds an additional factor of 2 compared 
with its TL13 cousin (this includes the "laser efficiency modifier"). Of 
course none of this is set in stone.

An aside - I tried rating the warheads for TNE but they sucked badly due to 
their low penetration ratings (I rated the 40Mj warhead as 1D6 hits at 
1/4-16).


>>Postulating some kind of self-destructing lasing chemical would help a 
>>lot.
>>TNT has an energy content of ~4.5Mj/kg while a TL13-15 Chemical Lasing
>>Cartridge has 2Mj/kg. Is it possible to get 4.5Mj/kg from a Chemical 
>>Lasing
>>Cartridge? Double this?
>
>Theoretically possible, yes.  Practically?  I don't know.  The mass of
>a cartridge is more than just the mass of chemical compounds contained
>within it, and converting chemical energy to laser energy is usually
>far from 100% efficient.  2 MJ/kg is very good, as far as I can see.
>
>- Tim


I'm thinking more the other practical angle. If the self-destructing 
cartridge were not noticeably better than the regular cartridge we would all 
be designing reusable (why blow up a expensive missile) laser missiles with 
10-50 cartridges with a few 45'000 km range High RoF focal arrays. The best 
part is that PD fire wouldn't stand a chance at these ranges while the 
missile would still hit most targets with every shot. Hey, this almost 
sounds like a good idea. : )

Such a missile would be a bit larger that a regular missile to fit more 
cartridges, a beam pointer and extra fuel but everything should fit into 7 
to 14 m3 or so. It would be like sort of like a laser armed remote 
controlled fighters. Make them 10 dt, pack a few more weapons and some 
thruster plates for cruising and we got a Zho robotic fighter. :)


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.181756.-125169.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

John

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 20:54:48 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> >
> I've got a Microsoft trackball that helped the arm strain go 
> away (seems I get tense using a regular mouse).

Trackball won't work, nor one of those pads you move a finger on - "No
dexterity!"
My stats are 211885 .....

> That, and I use IBM ViaVoice to type a lot.  

I barely have a voice now, and it's difficult to understand, and
constantly changing.

ObTrav:
You streamlined you ships computer to access by voice command. 
You've been in a nasty bar-fight.
Your face is all swollen from the bar stool that fractured your jaw.
Sure, medical patched you up ok, but your speech is slurred by both your
wounds and Scout brew.
The ship won't open the hatch, now what?

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F115LJ0HYnmTvdeLhie00006b47@hotmail.com>

Anthony Jackson wtote
>Patrik Holmstrm writes:
>>To the best of my knowledge the effectiveness of Meson guns have >>varied 
>>rather dramatically between editions but I have to agree that >>they are 
>>only  marginally effective in space combat under the >>FFS2/MCS combo
>
>Specifically, there's not much point to range beyond short, due to the 
> >evasion effects.  Meson guns have a bunch of interesting tactical uses 
> >because you can hide behind a planet or deep in a gas giant and use a 
> >forward observer in a fighter (yeah, that's not discussed in MCS).

It's not really that bad (though nearly). For example any 200 dt Trader (or 
other low acceleration ship) or a Tigress class ship will be hit by every 
shot fired by a (lightspeed) weapon at less than 10 hexes. The exact 
distance when this happends depends on acceleration, displacement and hull 
configuration but is seldom less than 5 hexes except for missiles and 
fighters. Hit probablities goes downhill pretty fast after this distance but 
medium range should be doable for many targets (less so for meson guns). 
AFAIK most editions use some kind of proximity fused Meson gun that removes 
that nasty r^(-6) term.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:34:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:34:18 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <200205010132.FJC00900@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  writes
>My stats are 211885 .....
>
If you don't mind me asking, what happened to you? I have 
that dreaded feeling it was an industrial accident (in my 
youth I used to do abstracts of depositions for industrial 
accidents - don't ask me to eat Heinz Homestyle Gravy)

>ObTrav:
>You streamlined you ships computer to access by voice 
>command. You've been in a nasty bar-fight.
>Your face is all swollen from the bar stool that fractured 
>your jaw. Sure, medical patched you up ok, but your speech 
>is slurred by both your wounds and Scout brew.
>The ship won't open the hatch, now what?
>

IMTU, you pull out the interface cable from your belt pack, 
plug it into the ship's external jack, put the other end into 
the socket in your head, and open the door.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEKACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>I'm just upset that I seem to have missed the 25th anniversary golf
>shirt.  I really wanted one of those, and now I can't find them!

You should be.  My frient Luther Martin has one, and it looks sharp.  His
only complaint is that he doesn't have many places to wear it.  I think he
should just wear it to work, but it's a little too formal for his office's
dress code (he's usually wearing a loud Hawaiian shirt when I see him during
business hours).

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:43:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:43:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
>
>Considering the deal the players made in the first place, a sudden
>attack of ethics would seem to be a bit out of place.  They willingly
>lied and got paid for it.  Seems pretty bizarre that they would care
>that the politician used it for different purposes.
>
>Seems to me the obvious answer is a).  They got paid already and
>now have a powerful "friend".  What is the problem?

As they say in management seminars, it's not so much a problem as an
opportunity.  Having a powerful friend on that world may be the most optimal
outcome, but other options should certainly be considered.  It's not
personal, you know.  It's just business.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:47:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:47:24 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  TML Haiku
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

A great idea
From John Kwon of TML
Haiku of the game

a queasy stomach
deeply humming up your spine 
g-carrier please land

a queasy stomach
the engineer stopped work
he is not jump sick

pleasure center burn
"you must remove that old wire"
"doctor my brain hurts"

Silver gauss pistol
Her stalking ex-husband was
Shot so many times

They have left the Hive
To shake hands and see the sights
Making jokes in sign

Please don't feed the Vargr
He is our steward and cook
Give him bad ideas

Assiniboia
Even in daytime it shines
Credo Down again

Esalin border
They are eating kubicho
I can smell it here

No slaves on Mongo
We enjoy our service here
Do not want to leave

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 19:55:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 18:55:08 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
Message-ID: <F264yp8ARf3sllNY30k00006c57@hotmail.com>

>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>

<snip of nice design>

>Weaponry
>1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750]
>(LR)
>20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
>(LR)

Personally I would replace these with laser bays since they are smaller 
(5x), lighter (2.5x), use less power (1.2x) and cost less (7.5x) (but you 
probably know all this). Yes, I know you like PAWs. :)

>6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
>15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations for 600
>crew)

Do you have a reason why you choose to carry more fuel than rations? My
designs usually do the opposite and carry one year worth of rations and
6 month of power plant fuel. My reasoning is that the powerplant fuel will 
be refilled after every jump and that military ships will seldom be operated 
at full power and thus the fuel will last longer.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Searching for filk
Message-ID: <200205010158.FJC02926@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

The song Wanderin' Star from Paint Your Wagon is perilously 
close to filk with few modifications. It almost sounds like 
the unofficial song of the Scouts.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:04:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:04:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>
References: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020501120223.A30646@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> >I would expect detonation lasers to appear *much* earlier; TL8 or 9.
> 
> Are you talking about NukeDets or ChemDets here?

Both.


> There are some reasons (e.g. the 1D6 Hits rule from TNE/T4) to
> believe that NukeDets aren't this accurate. As they don't require a
> conventional beam pointer (whatever it is that beam pointers do)

I have no idea :/

Whatever they are, it isn't something that's required for TL7 weapons.
Unless it's just a fancy term for "sensors".


> I'm thinking more the other practical angle. If the self-destructing
> cartridge were not noticeably better than the regular cartridge we
> would all be designing reusable (why blow up a expensive missile)
> laser missiles with 10-50 cartridges with a few 45'000 km range High
> RoF focal arrays.

I thought 2 MJ/kg *was* for a one-shot self-destructing device.  It's
ahead of any currently plausible reusable pulse laser technology by a
long shot.



> The best part is that PD fire wouldn't stand a chance at these
> ranges while the missile would still hit most targets with every
> shot.

What system allows a whole bunch of batteries of starship-mounted
lasers to miss a non-accelerating target at 45 Mm while the starship
itself is an easy hit?

(I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that the missile could
accelerate while still firing to an accuracy of 1 part per million)


> Such a missile would be a bit larger that a regular missile to fit
> more cartridges, a beam pointer and extra fuel but everything should
> fit into 7 to 14 m3 or so. It would be like sort of like a laser
> armed remote controlled fighters. Make them 10 dt, pack a few more
> weapons and some thruster plates for cruising and we got a Zho
> robotic fighter. :)

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that remote missile/drone warfare is the way
to go in general.  I'm guessing the only reason why Traveller has
starship-to-starship direct-fire battles is for the space-opera image.
The rules (at least GURPS Traveller) don't favour it at all.  It would
be nice to have a clear statement of intent.

(For that matter, even person-to-person gunfights don't look too
plausible at GURPS TL9 and above if you examine things closely, but
there are things you can do to tweak things back into shape to retain
the 'feel' of standard Traveller combat.  Not that I bother with
combat anymore for the most part.  By TL9 weapons and above, when it
comes to lethal combat the outcomes are that you're either unscathed
or dead.  Never wounded and valiantly fighting on, or other staples of
space opera.)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:08:17 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020430.190216.-125169.4.generalturokan@juno.com>

John

On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:32:27 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com  writes
> >My stats are 211885 .....
> >
> If you don't mind me asking, what happened to you? 

Amyo Lateral Sclerosis [ALS] Lou Gherig's disease.

I guess you didn't get my announcement from 9-27-01

I'll send ya copy.

Right now it's time to eat and watch JAG.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
Message-ID: <200205010204.FJC03335@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I bet Tod really likes hearing "Men of Harlech". Not that 
it's a French song, nor did they sing it at Rourke's Drift 
outside of the movie.

I am a more than passable baritone, and I have been heard to 
sing the National Anthem, clearly audible at over a mile away 
without benefit of amplification.  Mind you, I was 50 feet in 
the air, and it was a quiet night. They had to wait until I 
was finished before they called me up and told me to knock it 
off.  There *is* a benefit to knowing more than the first 
verse.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:17:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:17:13 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
References: <F264yp8ARf3sllNY30k00006c57@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CCF4FB0.5EA8596F@premier.net>


"Patrik Holmstrm" wrote:
> 
> >From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> 
> <snip of nice design>

From a highly-regarded competitor in FF&S2 warship design, that's high
praise!
> 
> >Weaponry
> >1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750]
> >(LR)
> >20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
> >(LR)
> 
> Personally I would replace these with laser bays since they are smaller
> (5x), lighter (2.5x), use less power (1.2x) and cost less (7.5x) (but you
> probably know all this). Yes, I know you like PAWs. :)

OTOH, if one uses the optional D3 for laser damage in MCS (which I do),
then PAWs (with their D6) are more destructive.  And I _like_
destructive weapons.  _Especially_ destructive PAWs. ;-)

Besides, with a corporate name like AuricTech, do you _really_ think our
designers worry too much about cost (at least when designing warships)?

> 
> >6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
> >15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations for 600
> >crew)
> 
> Do you have a reason why you choose to carry more fuel than rations? My
> designs usually do the opposite and carry one year worth of rations and
> 6 month of power plant fuel. My reasoning is that the powerplant fuel will
> be refilled after every jump and that military ships will seldom be operated
> at full power and thus the fuel will last longer.

Three reasons:

1.  More leeway in the event of fuel loss due to damage.
2.  Longer operating time in the event of a misjump or other calamity
that causes the crew to retreat to the Emergency low berths (as you can
see, the design has enough Emergency low berths to carry the entire crew
at normal manning levels).
3.  The default setting on the Akins spreadsheet for fusion plant fuel
is one year.

Note: these reasons are not necessarily in order of importance. :-)

Thanks again for the feedback.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:21:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:21:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giants (was Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller)
Message-ID: <48.acc729f.2a00aad9@aol.com>

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tim@freeman.little-possums.net writes:
> Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
> pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
> dwarf mass.  Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
> increasing temperatures.  Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
> expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.
>
> It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
> 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
> fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.

Got a reference for this?

If we ever revise GT:First In, one of the things I want to fix is the way
you generate gas giant sizes. I'm not particuarly happy with the kludge
I originally came up with - for one thing, you can't really generate super-
Jovians with it.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>tim@freeman.little-possums.net writes:
<BR>&gt; Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
<BR>&gt; pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
<BR>&gt; dwarf mass. &nbsp;Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
<BR>&gt; increasing temperatures. &nbsp;Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
<BR>&gt; expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.
<BR>&gt;
<BR>&gt; It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
<BR>&gt; 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
<BR>&gt; fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.
<BR>
<BR>Got a reference for this?
<BR>
<BR>If we ever revise GT:First In, one of the things I want to fix is the way
<BR>you generate gas giant sizes. I'm not particuarly happy with the kludge
<BR>I originally came up with - for one thing, you can't really generate super-
<BR>Jovians with it.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 20:45:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Apr 30 19:45:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
In-Reply-To: <200205010204.FJC03335@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8F4A4BE.5908C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 4/30/02 7:04 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I bet Tod really likes hearing "Men of Harlech". Not that
> it's a French song, nor did they sing it at Rourke's Drift
> outside of the movie.
> 

Tod likes all martial music.  It is a sad thing that modern war rids us a
music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that pop
up now and again).  I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
beginning of the battle.  Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
gleaming in the sun, and martial music.  It stirs the blood.

Modern war is a dirty, no nonsense business with no room for ruffles and
flourishes, banners snapping in the wind, sabres gleaming and 'gloire'.

From Louis Simpson

"At Malplaquet and Waterloo
They were polite and proud,
They primed their guns with billet-doux
And, as they fired, bowed.
At Appomatox too, it seems
Some things were understood.

O the ash and the oak and the willow tree
And the green grows the grass on the infantry; "

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
Message-ID: <a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462@aol.com>

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> Tod likes all martial music.  It is a sad thing that modern war rids us a
> music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that pop
> up now and again).  I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
> beginning of the battle.  Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
> gleaming in the sun, and martial music.  It stirs the blood.

I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been writing,
involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some rather
unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there have
been a couple sequels.

The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in the
soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior speakers.
Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as they
wade into combat.

The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon"
at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-).

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Tod likes all martial music. &nbsp;It is a sad thing that modern war rids us a
<BR>&gt; music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that pop
<BR>&gt; up now and again). &nbsp;I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
<BR>&gt; beginning of the battle. &nbsp;Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
<BR>&gt; gleaming in the sun, and martial music. &nbsp;It stirs the blood.
<BR>
<BR>I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been writing,
<BR>involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some rather
<BR>unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there have
<BR>been a couple sequels.
<BR>
<BR>The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in the
<BR>soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior speakers.
<BR>Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as they
<BR>wade into combat.
<BR>
<BR>The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon"
<BR>at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-).
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
References: <a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CCF5D6A.23227877@premier.net>


JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> 
**quote**

I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been
writing, 
involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some
rather 
unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there
have 
been a couple sequels. 

The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in
the 
soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior
speakers. 
Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as
they 
wade into combat. 

The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" 
at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-). 

**end quote**

Of course, had they played "MacArthur Park" (the Richard Harris
version), there would have been mass surrenders by the hostiles [*],
followed immediately by mass arrests of US Special Forces personnel for
war crimes.... ;-)

[*] Either that, or the aliens' braincases would have exploded.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F259XPec8O1AAwl6zO600006d73@hotmail.com>

Timothy Little wrote:
>Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> > There are some reasons (e.g. the 1D6 Hits rule from TNE/T4) to
> > believe that NukeDets aren't this accurate. As they don't require a
> > conventional beam pointer (whatever it is that beam pointers do)
>
>I have no idea :/
>
>Whatever they are, it isn't something that's required for TL7 weapons.
>Unless it's just a fancy term for "sensors".

Well, FFS1 says that they "represent the integral fire control capabilities 
of the weapon". They are required for "all heavy (non-small arm) laser, 
particle accelerators and meson guns". A external sensor is still required 
to the best of my knowledge.

>I thought 2 MJ/kg *was* for a one-shot self-destructing device.  It's
>ahead of any currently plausible reusable pulse laser technology by a
>long shot.

That depends on you defination of self-destructing. The regular CLC is used 
much like a rifle cartridge and the reaction is contained in the cartridge 
itself. I'm thinking more of something that explodes spectacularly.

> > The best part is that PD fire wouldn't stand a chance at these
> > ranges while the missile would still hit most targets with every
> > shot.
>
>What system allows a whole bunch of batteries of starship-mounted
>lasers to miss a non-accelerating target at 45 Mm while the starship
>itself is an easy hit?

Assuming that the missile can manuever:
It's bigger and accelerates less? :)

Assuming that it can't:
It won't matter since an entire fleet will be waiting for the target ship to 
stop manuevering in preparation of PD fire. The fleet will then fire and hit 
with every weapon it has disposable.

>(I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that the missile could
>accelerate while still firing to an accuracy of 1 part per million)

The rules seem to disagree but I grant you that it would be something of an 
engineering problem. I think Bruce Macintosh talked about laser accuracy a 
couple of times but I can't remember if he mentioned something about 
acceleration effects.

The fire control would have knowledge of future acceleration and could 
syncronize fire with a straight burn. During such a burn the angle to the 
target wouldn't change much and you have to do that kind of burn rather 
often if you want optimal evasion. Another possible tactic would be to have 
the missile stop accelerating for 0.1 seconds (or less) while shooting. Not 
evading is after all a valid evasion tactic (unless you do it all the time 
or do it predictably).

<snip>

I agree with all the rest. I have designed fighter drones and automatic PD 
systems for battledress for this kind of war. Fighting a high tech war 
without support and gadgets must (most of the time) be like fighting modern 
day tanks with sticks and stones. On the largest flat surface you can 
imagine. In the dark. And you can't hide.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:26:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:26:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giants (was Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller)
In-Reply-To: <48.acc729f.2a00aad9@aol.com>
References: <48.acc729f.2a00aad9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020501132547.A30741@freeman.little-possums.net>

JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
[I wrote:]
> > It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
> > 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
> > fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.
> 
> Got a reference for this?

Just my lecture notes at the moment, though I'm sure I can find a
suitable reference in the Uni library.  I've been meaning to go back
there for another study session soon anyway :)

Of course, these models are entirely theoretical: no diameters of real
superjovians have yet been measured to my knowledge.  A quick abstract
search confirms this as of March 2002.  I can find only two measured
diameters for verified extrasolar planets (via transit photometry),
both of sub-jovian mass.

Interestingly, one of the two appears somewhat larger than Jupiter --
1.35 times the diameter, but only about 70% of Jupiter's mass.  This
is almost certainly because it is *very* hot, orbiting just 0.045 AU
from a G0V star, and also because it has a relatively low mass so that
the pressure increase due to temperature is more able to overcome
gravity.

I would not be at all surprised if this is close to the largest planet
that will ever be found.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:33:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:33:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <200205010332.FJG00772@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

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Z3MgYWdhaW5zdCBza3kNClN0dWNrIGluc2lkZSBhZ2Fpbg0K

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 21:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Tue Apr 30 20:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
Message-ID: <F1790dwzd44lkw8Hbql00006d85@hotmail.com>

Please forgive the somewhat lighthearted tone of the message. It must be the 
hour.

>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>"Patrik Holmstrm" wrote:
> >
> > >From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> >
> > <snip of nice design>
>
>From a highly-regarded competitor in FF&S2 warship design, that's high
>praise!

Maybe we should start the "Club for Internal Admiration"? Hmm, I think I 
recognise those initials. :)

> > >Weaponry
> > >1 x 11.144 Gj Heavy Spinal PA (+6) 2/13-13-13-13 
>[1,200/750-750-750-750]
> > >(LR)
> > >20 x 1,876 Mj Linear Bay PA (+6) 2/10-10-10-10 [1,200/305-305-305-305]
> > >(LR)
> >
>>Personally I would replace these with laser bays since they are >>smaller 
>>(5x), lighter (2.5x), use less power (1.2x) and cost less (7.5x) (but you 
>>probably know all this). Yes, I know you like PAWs. :)
>
>OTOH, if one uses the optional D3 for laser damage in MCS (which I do),
>then PAWs (with their D6) are more destructive.  And I _like_
>destructive weapons.  _Especially_ destructive PAWs. ;-)

Now that you remaind I remember that I also use that rule. Dang! Well we 
will then have to roughly double the size of the mount. That will cut rather 
severly into our advantages but at least we now have a average damage that 
is 0.5 higher (16+2 vs 14+3.5) than the PAW mount though the laser mount 
still lack the doubled crew casulties.

Wait now I got it! The laser mount has superior traverse! Muhhha! I wan't to 
see your 44 m PAW triumf that! :)

>>>6    Power (/Fus:81000MW,1yr )
>>>15600     Life Sup. (/Ty:Ex,Gd /'St) (26 weeks of Good rations
> >
>>Do you have a reason why you choose to carry more fuel than rations? >>My 
>>designs usually do the opposite and carry one year worth of >>rations and 
>>6 month of power plant fuel. My reasoning is that the >>powerplant fuel 
>>will  be refilled after every jump and that military >>ships will seldom 
>>be operated at full power and thus the fuel will >>last longer.
>
>Three reasons:
>
>1.  More leeway in the event of fuel loss due to damage.
>2.  Longer operating time in the event of a misjump or other calamity
>that causes the crew to retreat to the Emergency low berths (as you can
>see, the design has enough Emergency low berths to carry the entire >crew 
>at normal manning levels).
>3.  The default setting on the Akins spreadsheet for fusion plant fuel
>is one year.
>
>Note: these reasons are not necessarily in order of importance. :-)
>
Pretty good reasons all of them.

Now it's time to crawl into my cave since the daystar is rapidly approching.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Apr 30 23:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Apr 30 22:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F259XPec8O1AAwl6zO600006d73@hotmail.com>
References: <F259XPec8O1AAwl6zO600006d73@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020501152126.A30999@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> Well, FFS1 says that they "represent the integral fire control capabilities 
> of the weapon". They are required for "all heavy (non-small arm) laser, 
> particle accelerators and meson guns". A external sensor is still required 
> to the best of my knowledge.

OK.  So it isn't something required for any TL7 weapon, which is why I
couldn't find anything about it :)


> That depends on you defination of self-destructing. The regular CLC
> is used much like a rifle cartridge and the reaction is contained in
> the cartridge itself. I'm thinking more of something that explodes
> spectacularly.

I don't think it would make much difference.  If it's big enough to
self-destruct with 2 MJ/kg, you're not going to get a lot more power
out of anything chemical once you add in all the other apparatus
necessary to get an ultra-high power extremely tightly collimated
laser beam out of it.


> It won't matter since an entire fleet will be waiting for the target
> ship to stop manuevering in preparation of PD fire. The fleet will
> then fire and hit with every weapon it has disposable.

If the entire enemy fleet stops maneuvering to fire at one target
ship, they are themselves open to fire from the opposing fleet :)

Besides which, a very large ship can carry stabilisation gear that a
little missile can't.


> >(I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that the missile could
> >accelerate while still firing to an accuracy of 1 part per million)
> 
> The rules seem to disagree but I grant you that it would be something of an 
> engineering problem. I think Bruce Macintosh talked about laser accuracy a 
> couple of times but I can't remember if he mentioned something about 
> acceleration effects.

"Jerk."  That's not an insult, it's a technical term :)

Specifically, the term for rate of change of acceleration.  An evading
vehicle must change acceleration direction rapidly, which means that
stabilisation has to converge on the order of tens of milliseconds for
a missile to use its acceleration ability to best advantage, against a
jerk of thousands of gees per second.


> Another possible tactic would be to have the missile stop
> accelerating for 0.1 seconds (or less) while shooting.

0.1 seconds is very short time for even short-mode vibrations to damp
out from the jerk of not accelerating anymore.  Mind you, I don't
doubt that TL12 weapon mounts and fire control could do so, but us
poor mortals certainly couldn't.

Another thought: A high-RoF missile probably won't scratch the paint
of most ships -- after all, there's a limit to how much energy you can
deliver over a combat round, and breaking it up into lots of little
pieces just means you have more chances to hit for no damage.  One
ship's laser will vaporise a missile, since there just isn't enough
volume for anywhere near the same thickness of armour that a starship
can mount.


- Tim


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